# Wade is the best player in the NBA



## Dee-Zy

ok no. I think Kobe is and Lebron is a close second or Kobe is 1a and Bron 1b.


but I really want to just show some love to my man Wade.

#2 in Scoring
#4 in Assists
#2 in Steals
#5 in Blocks


How sick is that? Whoever has Wade in fantasy league must be orgasming every time the Heat plays.

I do want to point out that he is shooting better than Bron but also turns the ball over more. Bron and Wade's assists are close but Bron kills wade in Rebounding.


----------



## Dee-Zy

I'm wondering who is talking about Rose being better than Wade or all that crazy talk.


----------



## Dornado

Dee-Zy said:


> I'm wondering who is talking about Rose being better than Wade or all that crazy talk.


I don't think anyone is saying that... I think most Bulls fans just hope Rose gets to Wade's level.


----------



## BlakeJesus

He has been very impressive this season, but that doesn't really come as a shocker considering how well he played in the Olympics.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Wade's been great so far, no doubt.

Is it true Wade, Lebron & Bosh lead the league in scoring? Thats sick..


----------



## Cap

If he can ever stay healthy, I'm sure he'll be good this year. Sadly I won't be surprised when/if he crashes into a big and hurts his hip/ribs/etc. again.


----------



## Flash is the Future

EHL said:


> If he can ever stay healthy, I'm sure he'll be good this year. Sadly I won't be surprised when/if he crashes into a big and hurts his hip/ribs/etc. again.


He hurt his ribs by not crashing into anyone. Just had a freak muscle pull while shooting in Game 5 of the 2005 ECFs.  Hurt his shoulder by getting tangled up with Shane Battier on the perimeter. Knee was just wear/tear. 
Never hurt his hips, though. As long as people let Wade fall properly he won't get hurt on drives, and he's never gotten seriously hurt by bigmen.


----------



## HB

The best player's team is loosing to the lowly Pacers as of now. Shouldn't they be beating that team given he is supposedly the best player in the league. Sorry I couldn't resist :clown:


----------



## NewAgeBaller

HB said:


> The best player's team is loosing to the lowly Pacers as of now. Shouldn't they be beating that team given he is supposedly the best player in the league. Sorry I couldn't resist :clown:


Well Wade's got 22 points and 4 assists, and should honestly have about 8 assists but noone could catch or finish (yes, even open layups) in the first half.

We're losing cause of defence though. Wade's been great, reason we're in the game.


----------



## HB

I was just being facetious. He's having a great season, though I think Bron and Kobe are better players


----------



## NewAgeBaller

HB said:


> I was just being facetious. He's having a great season, though I think Bron and Kobe are better players


I realise, just thought I'd point out how utterly ridiculous our team was that first half.. :biggrin:

Wade has 32 and we're up 4 now.


----------



## OneBadLT123

I dont think anyone doubted Wade, is just that I think people wrote him off because he had an injury plagued season last year. Couple years ago, we all knew where he was going, now hes just starting again where he left off before the injury.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

wade's unreal, but id put lebron and dwight ahead of him. but he is playing better than kobe so far.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Wade has 36/8/4. He won't get 40, but he's goin to the line for hopefully 37 & 38.

MVP chants in the AAA. :biggrin:


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

he's getting mvp chants right now, too bad, lebron's going to take that one home.


----------



## Ruff Draft

Quentin Richardson is the best player in the NBA.


----------



## MemphisX

aznzen said:


> wade's unreal, but id put lebron *and dwight *ahead of him. but he is playing better than kobe so far.




:lol:


----------



## Adam

MemphisX said:


> :lol:


Yeah, that was pretty silly but I didn't want to have to be the one to point it out.

Wade is now averaging 28.9 on 50.2% while LeBron is averaging 29.1 on 48.2%. 

Top 5 in blocks and assists to Wade as well. Wonder if HB will followup in this thread after he ran away.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

why is that so silly? orlando is 3rd in the league in defensive efficiency and we all know dwight is the culprit there. not a lot of big man that plays like dwight, i can name 5 perimeters who can put similar stats like wade.



i swear people nowadays overrate a swingman's production way too much.


----------



## BlackNRed

Always has been better than Lebron when he's healthy. Unfortunatley he's healthy less often than he isn't. But the hypsters, and the believers of the hypesters will tell you otherwise. I'll buy Kobe, most years. I'll never buy Lebron being better. Clutchness owns filling out a stat sheet. Playoff dominance owns playoff chokage. Everybody knows the truth but most are too scared to say it. Even the TS retracted his statement as if it was a 'joke.'

Speaking of stat sheets..

Wade

PPG 28.2 
RPG 5.1 
APG 7.8 
SPG 2.5 
BPG 2.0 
FG% 0.492 
FT% 0.762 
3P% 0.235 MPG 36.5 

Lebroom

PPG 29.5 
RPG 7.8 
APG 6.9 
SPG 2.0 
BPG 0.8 
FG% 0.486 
FT% 0.772 
3P% 0.222 
MPG 37.6

(this is without tonights updated stats, where wade went off again.

How does a 6'4 SG outblock a 6'8 monster PF by that much? more than a block more a game? crazyness?


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

The '93 Heat said:


> Yeah, that was pretty silly but I didn't want to have to be the one to point it out.
> 
> Wade is now averaging 28.9 on 50.2% while LeBron is averaging 29.1 on 48.2%.
> 
> Top 5 in blocks and assists to Wade as well. Wonder if HB will followup in this thread after he ran away.


wade is not on lebrons class. he's a notch lower...


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> why is that so silly? orlando is 3rd in the league in defensive efficiency and we all know dwight is the culprit there. not a lot of big man that plays like dwight, i can name 5 peimeters who can put similar stats like wade.


Link to your defensive efficiency stat?


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> wade is not on lebrons class. he's a notch lower...


Wade is a world champion last time I checked. LeBron is trying his best just to get to Wade's "notch."


----------



## Flash is the Future

aznzen said:


> why is that so silly? orlando is 3rd in the league in defensive efficiency and we all know dwight is the culprit there. not a lot of big man that plays like dwight, i can name 5 perimeters who can put similar stats like wade.
> 
> 
> 
> i swear people nowadays overrate a swingman's production way too much.


Other than Lebron, I'd like to see you name one lol.


----------



## afobisme

i got wade on my fantasy team. i actually had the first pick, and it was wade.

he's good for my fantasy team, of course.. but he doesn't shoot 3's enough and turns the ball over a little more than lebron/kobe etc. lebron is great too, but then again he doesn't shoot 3's either. i'd rather have chris paul's 21 points and 11 dimes per night.


----------



## BlackNRed

aznzen said:


> wade is not on lebrons class. he's a notch lower...


This is exactly the bull**** i'm talking about. What makes this board a joke and why I stopped posting here.

At least if you're going to say something so foolish, provide a little bit of insight to back up what you're saying.

Why exactly is Lebron above Wade in ability? He never has been, and never was.

He fills out stat sheets nice, he does **** else that matters.


----------



## Adam

afobisme said:


> i got wade on my fantasy team. i actually had the first pick, and it was wade.
> 
> he's good for my fantasy team, of course.. but he doesn't shoot 3's enough and turns the ball over a little more than lebron/kobe etc.


Actually he doesn't turn the ball over that much but I'll let Flash is the Future enlighten you on this one.

Back to Howard, he got outplayed by Yao again tonight. And until he makes some noise in the playoffs and isn't shut out by a bench midget like Maxiell then don't make such a silly comment aznzen come on.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

The '93 Heat said:


> Link to your defensive efficiency stat?



ill find it if i can. i cant remember, i think i either read that from holliner or heard ot from kamla.


magic leads the league in BPG though


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

Flash is the Future said:


> Other than Lebron, I'd like to see you name one lol.


oh my god. the fanbois are here...do we really have to?


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

Heated said:


> This is exactly the bull**** i'm talking about. What makes this board a joke and why I stopped posting here.
> 
> At least if you're going to say something so foolish, provide a little bit of insight to back up what you're saying.
> 
> Why exactly is Lebron above Wade in ability? He never has been, and never was.
> 
> He fills out stat sheets nice, he does **** else that matters.


so people stating opinion and preference why wade is not in lebrons class made you stop posting here? or did you stop posting because wade was out of the limelight for a long period of time?


if you cant accept people's point of view then yeah maybe you should just stick to the heats board and praise wade 24/7.


----------



## Flash is the Future

Heated said:


> This is exactly the bull**** i'm talking about. What makes this board a joke and why I stopped posting here.
> 
> At least if you're going to say something so foolish, provide a little bit of insight to back up what you're saying.
> 
> Why exactly is Lebron above Wade in ability? He never has been, and never was.
> 
> He fills out stat sheets nice, he does **** else that matters.


Come back to the Heat forum! Earl "The Pearl" Barron may have moved on to Italy, but you can come and discuss how much of a beast Chris Quinn is.


----------



## Flash is the Future

aznzen said:


> oh my god. the fanbois are here...do we really have to?


Pfft, watch it, or I'll set Chris Quinn loose on ya. :clown:


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> oh my god. the fanbois are here...do we really have to?


Wade isn't one of my top 5 favorite players. You put yourself out there to be knocked down with your opinions so why are you so afraid to defend them?


----------



## NewAgeBaller

The '93 Heat said:


> Wade isn't one of my top 5 favorite players.


Just curious, who is?


----------



## afobisme

The '93 Heat said:


> Actually he doesn't turn the ball over that much but I'll let Flash is the Future enlighten you on this one.
> 
> Back to Howard, he got outplayed by Yao again tonight. And until he makes some noise in the playoffs and isn't shut out by a bench midget like Maxiell then don't make such a silly comment aznzen come on.


it doesn't really matter that his t/o ratio is good... a turnover is a turnover, and it hurts my stats. he led the league in turnovers last year, and he's at about 4 per game.


----------



## Flash is the Future

The '93 Heat said:


> Actually he doesn't turn the ball over that much but I'll let Flash is the Future enlighten you on this one.
> 
> Back to Howard, he got outplayed by Yao again tonight. And until he makes some noise in the playoffs and isn't shut out by a bench midget like Maxiell then don't make such a silly comment aznzen come on.


I already did in another thread. I'm not entirely sure how fantasy work, but he might be that much of a turnover liability there as I doubt they're using Turnover ratio.


----------



## Flash is the Future

afobisme said:


> it doesn't really matter that his t/o ratio is good... a turnover is a turnover, and it hurts my stats. he led the league in turnovers last year, and he's at about 4 per game.


Yeah, that's what I thought.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

The '93 Heat said:


> Wade isn't one of my top 5 favorite players. You put yourself out there to be knocked down with your opinions so why are you so afraid to defend them?


im not afraid to defend them, but that question is obvious enough...


----------



## Adam

afobisme said:


> it doesn't really matter that his t/o ratio is good... a turnover is a turnover, and it hurts my stats. he led the league in turnovers last year, and he's at about 4 per game.


Are you talking about fantasy basketball or the real world because when you say he needs to shoot more threes you're talking about fantasy basketball. The three point shot is a low percentage high risk shot that many of the game's top coaches have suggested removing (Pat Riley, Jeff Van Gundy, and Phil Jackson to name a few).

The turnovers can be put in context and they have been by Flash is the Future. I'm not going to do what he has already done.



NewAgeBaller said:


> Just curious, who is?


Not sure of the order:

Chris Paul
Ron Artest
K.G.
Gilbert Arenas
LeBron


----------



## afobisme

Flash is the Future said:


> Yeah, that's what I thought.


don't get me wrong, i think wade is a top 5 fantasy player.. but i had the no. 1 pick, and i regret not taking cp3. i think he's 2a and lebron is 2b actually.


----------



## BlackNRed

aznzen said:


> oh my god. the fanbois are here...do we really have to?


Fan Boy?? reeeally..?

BBF.. where total lack of respect happens.

-playoff brilliance
-carries team to a title
-multiple time all star
-led team USA to gold
-best slasher in the league bar none
-clutch performer

This board is filled with people who try and discredit this boys ability by saying 'yeah he's good just not as good as Lebron and Kobe.' Even the so-called 'Heat fans.'

Please enlighten me on what else Wade has to do to get to *that level* that Lebroom and Kobo are on?

Fan boy? no. I just demand credit where it is due. Everytime I engage in one of these discussions... (cause i'm the only Heat fan around apparently that has any balls to challenge all your haters) you come up with **** to defend the notion that Lebron is *better.* Why you ask? Cause you're bringing a knife to a gun fight.

So come on haters. Step forward. Show me this evidence that what 95% of this forum claims is the truth.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

wade won a ring thanks to shaq. 


lebron got there by virtually with no offensive starpower.


----------



## afobisme

The '93 Heat said:


> Are you talking about fantasy basketball or the real world because when you say he needs to shoot more threes you're talking about fantasy basketball. The three point shot is a low percentage high risk shot that many of the game's top coaches have suggested removing (Pat Riley, Jeff Van Gundy, and Phil Jackson to name a few).
> 
> The turnovers can be put in context and they have been by Flash is the Future. I'm not going to do what he has already done.


have you been reading my posts?



aznzen said:


> wade won a ring thanks to shaq.
> 
> 
> lebron got there by virtually with no offensive starpower.


wade didn't get a ring because of shaq. it's the other way around. but wade got his ring froms the refs. he's a great player and all, but that guy got plenty of phantom calls.


----------



## Adam

afobisme said:


> don't get me wrong, i think wade is a top 5 fantasy player.. but i had the no. 1 pick, and i regret not taking cp3. i think he's 2a and lebron is 2b actually.


You're talking to people about your fantasy league. I've never been one of the people that complain about how this board has declined but do you really think people aren't looking at you like you're a moron right now?


----------



## myst

D-Wade leading the league in per again. 
Wade- 33.25
Lebron- 33.16
Parker- 32.54 (50+ point game skewed his stats)
Paul- 32.39


Not that it matters, but Orlando is 3rd in defensive efficiency at 95.7 behind the Celtics and Lakers. And the Heat are 5th in offensive efficiency.


----------



## afobisme

The '93 Heat said:


> You're talking to people about your fantasy league. I've never been one of the people that complain about how this board has declined but do you really think people aren't looking at you like you're a moron right now?


do you need to take reading comprehension courses? the OP said "he's good for your fantasy team" or something to that effect. seriously, read what i typed.. maybe 2 or 3 times. absorb it.


----------



## Flash is the Future

afobisme said:


> don't get me wrong, i think wade is a top 5 fantasy player.. but i had the no. 1 pick, and i regret not taking cp3. i think he's 2a and lebron is 2b actually.


Agreed. Just to clarify any confusion, I wasn't rubbing it in your face in the sense of (that's what I thought!). Just referring to my other post, saying that Wade's TOs do hurt your fantasy team.


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> wade won a ring thanks to shaq.
> 
> 
> lebron got there by virtually with no offensive starpower.


The same Shaq that averaged less PPG in the finals than Antoine Walker? The same Shaq who the Lenovo stat showed the team played better with Alonzo Mourning than him during the playoffs? The same Shaq that didn't play at all against Chicago or New Jersey because he was stopped by slobs like Jason Collins and Michael Sweetney? Why are you doing this to me aznzen...why?


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

Heated said:


> Fan Boy?? reeeally..?
> 
> BBF.. where total lack of respect happens.
> 
> -playoff brilliance
> -carries team to a title
> -multiple time all star
> -led team USA to gold
> -best slasher in the league bar none
> -clutch performer
> 
> This board is filled with people who try and discredit this boys ability by saying 'yeah he's good just not as good as Lebron and Kobe.' Even the so-called 'Heat fans.'
> 
> Please enlighten me on what else Wade has to do to get to *that level* that Lebroom and Kobo are on?
> 
> Fan boy? no. I just demand credit where it is due. Everytime I engage in one of these discussions... (cause i'm the only Heat fan around apparently that has any balls to challenge all your haters) you come up with **** to defend the notion that Lebron is *better.* Why you ask? Cause you're bringing a knife to a gun fight.


#1. chill the eff out.


#2:lol using a multiple all star as reference


#3 lebron is a better and much more unstoppable slasher and finisher!

#4 led team USA to gold? WTF is this? as far as i know it was a team effort...and oh yeah, kobe made the GW shot.

#5 fyi. wade is not the only clutch performer in the league...just an fyi.


#6 kobe's resume is far more impressive than that of wade.


----------



## myst

aznzen said:


> #1. chill the eff out.
> 
> 
> #2:lol using a multiple all star as reference
> 
> 
> #3 lebron is a better and much more unstoppable slasher and finisher!
> 
> #4 led team USA to gold? WTF is this? as far as i know it was a team effort...and oh yeah, kobe made the GW shot.
> 
> #5 fyi. wade is not the only clutch performer in the league...just an fyi.
> 
> 
> #6 kobe's resume is far more impressive than that of wade.


Not saying I disagree about your point of view (haven't decided personally who I think is the best), but you are grasping at straws here. I can throw out pretty much every one of your arguments, just admit that Wade is a top 3 player, and possibly #1 or #2.


----------



## BlackNRed

Flash is the Future said:


> Come back to the Heat forum! Earl "The Pearl" Barron may have moved on to Italy, but you can come and discuss how much of a beast Chris Quinn is.


Hey i'm Chris Quinn's #1 fan. :biggrin: Yeah if I ever get a lighter schedule i'll be able to start posting again. At the moment I barely have time to catch some Heat games.

edit: i'll be watching the Fins crush the Patsies tomarrow though! Go Miami!


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> #4 led team USA to gold? WTF is this? as far as i know it was a team effort...and oh yeah, kobe made the GW shot.


Actually Wade hit the last 3 because Spain hit a 3 to close the lead to four points after the Kobe 4 pt. play. Kobe also went for a reach in at mid court and gave up a dunk to Rudy against Howard for a 3 pt. play right before his 4 pt. play. But you can stick to your revisionist's history if you want.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

The '93 Heat said:


> The same Shaq that averaged less PPG in the finals than Antoine Walker? The same Shaq who the Lenovo stat showed the team played better with Alonzo Mourning than him during the playoffs? The same Shaq that didn't play at all against Chicago or New Jersey because he was stopped by slobs like Jason Collins and Michael Sweetney? Why are you doing this to me aznzen...why?


wait a minute here. this is getting crazier.


y'all are telling me shaq qas chopped liver? isnt he one of the biggest reasons why the heat got past the pistons in the ECF? wasnt shaq huge against the bulls?


are these numbers against the pistons good enough for ya?

Game 1: 14, 8
Game 2: 21, 12
Game 3: 27, 12
Game 4: 21, 9
Game 5: 19, 6
Game 6: 28, 16 series winning performance on 85%FG


wade is the man in the finals but to simply write shaq off is ridiculous. id like to see wade bring lamar odom and brian grant past those eastern conference teams.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

myst said:


> Not saying I disagree about your point of view (haven't decided personally who I think is the best), but you are grasping at straws here. I can throw out pretty much every one of your arguments, just admit that Wade is a top 3 player, and possibly #1 or #2.


wade is top 5. but he's not better than lebron.


also that silly reponse is inresponse to another silly one on why wade deserves the leagues best player title.


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> wait a minute here. this is getting crazier.
> 
> 
> y'all are telling me shaq qas chopped liver? isnt he one of the biggest reasons why the heat got past the pistons in the ECF? wasnt shaq huge against the bulls?
> 
> 
> are these numbers against the pistons good enough for ya?
> 
> Game 1: 14, 8
> Game 2: 21, 12
> Game 3: 27, 12
> Game 4: 21, 9
> Game 5: 19, 6
> Game 6: 28, 16 series winning performance on 85%FG
> 
> 
> wade is the man in the finals but to simply write shaq off is ridiculous. id like to see wade bring lamar odom and brian grant past those eastern conference teams.


Where did I write off Shaq? I only wrote off your idiotic comment that Shaq gave Wade a ring.

I give Shaq his due as the 3rd and sometimes 2nd best player during our championship.


----------



## BlackNRed

aznzen said:


> #1. chill the eff out.
> 
> 
> #2:lol using a multiple all star as reference
> 
> 
> #3 lebron is a better and much more unstoppable slasher and finisher!
> 
> #4 led team USA to gold? WTF is this? as far as i know it was a team effort...and oh yeah, kobe made the GW shot.
> 
> #5 fyi. wade is not the only clutch performer in the league...just an fyi.
> 
> 
> #6 kobe's resume is far more impressive than that of wade.


So.. where in that does it prove Wade is a lesser player? If I were to believe all of that, which I mostly do except for #3(that's total BS) and partially #4(Wade was the MVP for that team, but yes it was a team effort) and #1(I don't chill out on haters) those points would make said players comparable ie. not better than Wade.


----------



## HB

The '93 Heat said:


> Yeah, that was pretty silly but I didn't want to have to be the one to point it out.
> 
> Wade is now averaging 28.9 on 50.2% while LeBron is averaging 29.1 on 48.2%.
> 
> Top 5 in blocks and assists to Wade as well. Wonder if HB will followup in this thread after he ran away.


:laugh: I didnt run away. Matter of fact I made that post expecting you and your comrades to respond the way you did. You guys are just waiting for any opportunity to jump to Wade's defense. I was bored tonight so I thought I might as well do the honors. 

And no Wade is not better than Bron regardless of what Heated might think. Bron is a match-up nightmare for every team they face. The guy is pretty much the Shaq of guards/forwards, he is single handedly bloating the stats of the guys that play with him.


----------



## afobisme

it's funny how people are arguing over their personal opinions, thinking that it's objective.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

The '93 Heat said:


> Where did I write off Shaq? I only wrote off your idiotic comment that Shaq gave Wade a ring.
> 
> I give Shaq his due as the 3rd and sometimes 2nd best player during our championship.


you have serious comprehension issues. i never said SHAQ GAVE WADE a ring...


but you did look like an idiot saying shaq didnt play against the nets and chicago where he was a 20 and 10 player.


----------



## Adam

HB said:


> :laugh: I didnt run away. Matter of fact I made that post expecting you specifically to respond the way you did. You guys are just waiting for any opportunity to jump to Wade's defense. I was bored tonight so I thought I might as well do the honors. And no Wade is not better than Bron regardless of what Heated might think. Bron is a match-up nightmare for every team they face. The guy is pretty much the Shaq of guards/forwards, he is single handedly bloating the stats of the guys that play with him.


Off topic: It may not seem so from the way I post but you're actually my favorite poster.eace:


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> you have serious comprehension issues. i never said SHAQ GAVE WADE a ring...
> 
> 
> but you did look like an idiot saying shaq didnt play against the nets and chicago where he was a 20 and 10 player.



That's hilarious. You posted Pistons series stats and he was still the 2nd best player in that series. Also:



aznzen said:


> wade won a ring thanks to shaq.


You didn't just write that?


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

HB said:


> And no Wade is not better than Bron regardless of what Heated might think. Bron is a match-up nightmare for every team they face. The guy is pretty much the Shaq of guards/forwards, he is single handedly bloating the stats of the guys that play with him.


finally some light in this dark wade fanbois infested thread.


----------



## afobisme

aznzen said:


> you have serious comprehension issues. i never said SHAQ GAVE WADE a ring...
> 
> 
> but you did look like an idiot saying shaq didnt play against the nets and chicago where he was a 20 and 10 player.


you are a special needs teacher. he is helen kheller.


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> finally some light in this dark wade fanbois infested thread.


Wade isn't in my top 5 favorite players.


----------



## HB

The '93 Heat said:


> Off topic: It may not seem so from the way I post but you're actually my favorite poster.eace:


:clap2: thanks! I also enjoy reading your posts, thats why I was looking forward to your response in this thread.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

The '93 Heat said:


> You didn't just right that?


i wrote that, but what made you think that i meant Shaq gave Wade his ring?


it was just a fact that without shaquille in the middle the heat would've never reach the finals.


refute that...


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

afobisme said:


> you are a special needs teacher. he is helen kheller.


:lol::lol::lol:


----------



## myst

aznzen said:


> finally some light in this dark wade fanbois infested thread.


Heat fans have been told that Wade is worse then Brandon Roy, Derrick Rose and even LARRY HUGHES this past year, so I think we should have the right to defend him and celebrate his accomplishments.


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> i wrote that, but what made you think that i meant Shaq gave Wade his ring?
> 
> 
> it was just a fact that without shaquille in the middle the heat would've never reach the finals.
> 
> 
> refuse that...


Refute it? We could have replaced him with a dozen other players in the league at his position and still won. We could have replaced him with Big Z and done better. Wade won that ring and Shaq was at times the 3rd best player during our run. Big Z during the Cavs finals run was superior to Shaq.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

The '93 Heat said:


> That's hilarious. You posted Pistons series stats and he was still the 2nd best player in that series.


and? the point was you obviously were trying to discredit shaqfu's importance by saying jason collins owned him and he was non existent in the bulls/nets series, so i went ahead and showed you the real story why the heat advanced in the finals (memo to yourself" its not because of antonie walker or mourning).


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

The '93 Heat said:


> Refute it? *We could have replaced him with a dozen other players in the league at his position and still won*. *We could have replaced him with Big Z and done better* . Wade won that ring and Shaq was at times the 3rd best player during our run. Big Z during the Cavs finals run was superior to Shaq.


OK GAME OVER


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


it was fun while it lasted:clap2:


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

BIG z + wADE= dyNASTY!!!



*OH LEBRON PLEASE DONT LEAVE CLEVELAND, THE CENTER OF THE DECADE IS ON YOUR SIDE*


:lol::lol::lol::lol:


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> BIG z + wADE= dyNASTY!!!
> 
> 
> 
> *OH LEBRON PLEASE DONT LEAVE CLEVELAND, THE CENTER OF THE DECADE IS ON YOUR SIDE*
> 
> 
> :lol::lol::lol::lol:


Big Z wouldn't have gotten outscored by Antoine Walker. But please go on to tell me more about my own team.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

history of your team? you dont even know shaq played well against the nets and chicago...but yeah tell us your story :lol::lol::lol:


big z>shaq

:lol:


----------



## Omega

wade has not been able to lead the heat to a better record than the lakers, magic, or cavs so far this season.


----------



## BlackNRed

HB said:


> :laugh: I didnt run away. Matter of fact I made that post expecting you and your comrades to respond the way you did. You guys are just waiting for any opportunity to jump to Wade's defense. I was bored tonight so I thought I might as well do the honors.
> 
> And no Wade is not better than Bron regardless of what Heated might think. Bron is a match-up nightmare for every team they face. The guy is pretty much the Shaq of guards/forwards, he is single handedly bloating the stats of the guys that play with him.


Whoa what a reach! Even long time comm mods are having trouble with this one. Wade is by far more of a matchup nightmare, who stops him consistently? Who ever has? Teams key directly on him now(,not like they didn't before) but everyone likes to pretend that they didn't cause Shaq was here, now he's healthy again and still blowing people up.

Lebron is a matchup nightmare? I've seen teams make Lebron's game look pedestrian many times, mainly in the playoffs. We are talking about the same Lebron that shot an unimpressive 41% from the field in *EACH* of his last two playoff outings right? Let me guess, it's because he had no help. Same old tired excuse. 

:clap2: Keep on keepin on.

It's funny that way, people make excuses for Lebron's shortcomings, while at the same time discrediting Wade's strong points. The story hasn't changed here. It's understandable though. You guys allow this hype to be driven so deep into your brain over the years you actually start to believe.

You can't teach slashing like Wade. No one comes close to weaving through traffic like he, splitting defenders with ease making ridiculous shots look easy. The consistency in which he does this is unmatched by anyone. How do you guard someone with this natural ability? You don't, you try your best to front him, and clog up the lane? Occasionally a good defense with a strong game plan will slow him down. No one stops him, no one ever has. So tell me how he is less of a match-up nightmare? He's more of one.


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> history of your team? you dont even know shaq played well against the nets and chicago...but yeah tell us your story :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> 
> big z>shaq
> 
> :lol:


He didn't play well against the Nets and Chicago. He played less than 30 mins in the majority of those games and was a walking offensive foul who we specifically couldn't play at the end of games because of the Hack-a-Shaq. If we're replacing our 3rd best player it's not that difficult so you've yet to give any fact as to how he gave Wade a ring (a moronic statement you said that you didn't make).


----------



## Flash is the Future

The '93 Heat said:


> He didn't play well against the Nets and Chicago. He played less than 30 mins in the majority of those games and was a walking offensive foul who we specifically couldn't play at the end of games because of the Hack-a-Shaq. If we're replacing our 3rd best player it's not that difficult so you've yet to give any fact as to how he gave Wade a ring (a moronic statement you said that you didn't make).


Agreed. Though in my opinion, Shaq did more for us than any other C out East would have (except for maybe a young Dwight Howard).


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

The '93 Heat said:


> He didn't play well against the Nets and Chicago. He played less than 30 mins in the majority of those games and was a walking offensive foul who we specifically couldn't play at the end of games because of the Hack-a-Shaq. If we're replacing our 3rd best player it's not that difficult so you've yet to give any fact as to how he gave Wade a ring (a moronic statement you said that you didn't make).


again, i never said shaq gave wade a ring. jeez, afobisme is right, i feel like im talking to hellen kheller here.



and its just so amazing how wade fans are discrediting shaq's impact with the heat in that championship year.



and i thought laker fans are bad when it comes to dissing shaq's importance. i sure hope would like to see wade bring his team with lamar and brian grant in his lineup...


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> again, i never said shaq gave wade a ring. jeez, afobisme is right, i feel like im talking to hellen kheller here.


So what is the point of all your arguing if you don't think Shaq was indispensable to Wade? If you don't think Shaq GAVE Wade a ring then his contribution was replaceable. It's really simple, either he was indispensable or he wasn't.



> and its just so amazing how wade fans are discrediting shaq's impact with the heat in that championship year.


I'm no more a Dwyane Wade fan than you are.



> and i thought laker fans are bad when it comes to dissing shaq's importance. i sure hope would like to see wade bring his team with lamar and brian grant in his lineup...


Those aren't centers. Shaq's contribution to our championship run in 3/4 series was as the 3rd best player. Total average he was the 2nd best player for our championship run. He was behind Wade and somebody else in 3/4 playoff series. You have to go to the Detroit series just to see him as the 2nd best player and his stats from that made him 2nd best overall.

A player that doesn't step out on pick and rolls, elbows his defender in the face for turnovers, clanks two free throws for the equivalent of a turnover, dribbles the air out of the basketball then passes it to a teammate for a last-ditch contested shot, and you act like this SIDEKICK somehow was indispensable. 

He wasn't even a top 3 center that year so there were plenty of centers that could replace him. A team doesn't want to get 15 turnovers in a game. With Shaq you start with around 5 just off him clanking two free throws for a wasted trip. Then he dribbles the air out of the ball, elbows people in the face, and is slow moving up the court. He didn't play more than 30 minutes probably around 10 games.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

Big Z> Shaq though...


----------



## reHEATed

Wade has had an insane year so far

he is right up there with the top of the league with what he does on the court....


----------



## Adam

The best player on every night of our championship run was Wade. The second best player was any one of James Posey, Antoine Walker, Shaquille O'Neal, or Alonzo Mourning on any given night. More often than not it was one of the other 3 and not Shaq.

We were a team of Wade and a bunch of hungry old vets. Shaq helped power the lesser players and they helped power him. They all had glaring weaknesses in their game (Shaq especially). That's why our motto was 15 strong because only together could they give Wade the support he needed to win. But to argue that Shaq specifically was somehow indispensable is so far from reality. We could have replaced him with a long list of centers and still Wade and the other vets would have been enough along with that other guy to win a championship. Shaq was a member of a team not a superstar at that point.


----------



## reHEATed

E.Ville Von Love said:


> wade has not been able to lead the heat to a better record than the lakers, magic, or cavs so far this season.


and he wont be able to. Those are top teams

the fact that he is leading a team with 2 rookies starting and a 6-8 center to a winning record is an accomplishment in itself. This team isnt going to contend, but Wade is carrying it to a winning record. 

He has had an absolutely amazing season. You see those offensive stats he is putting up, and imo he is dpoy so far with those steals and blocks. Put it this way- he is top 10 in the NBA in blocks....the next top guard is Kobe Bryant, at #57.


----------



## afobisme

wade is practically in the same position as kobe was with the lakers in 04-05.. don't be surprised if the heat don't make it to the playoffs.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

afobisme said:


> wade is practically in the same position as kobe was with the lakers in 04-05.. don't be surprised if the heat don't make it to the playoffs.


The Heat have some tough games coming up too...they could slide under .500 pretty easily.

They have coming up a 5 game road trip:

Houston
@ POR
@ PHO 
@ LAC
@ GS
@ Utah

I could see the Heat dropping 4 or 5 of those games easily, especially on the road. I think the Heat need to do well on that road trip to make the playoffs.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

Benedict_Boozer said:


> The Heat have some tough games coming up too...they could slide under .500 pretty easily.
> 
> They have coming up a 5 game road trip:
> 
> Houston
> *@ POR L
> @ PHO L
> @ LAC W
> @ GS L
> @ Utah L*
> 
> I could see the Heat dropping 4 or 5 of those games easily, especially on the road. I think the Heat need to do well on that road trip to make the playoffs.


yeah


----------



## Pioneer10

I'd say Lebron and Wade in terms of pure performance have been about equal. Wade probably slightly better statiscally (season's young enough that it seems the numbers favor whoever was the last guy to have a huge game). Unlike what it's been in the past Wade has to do play the role everything for the Heat which Lebron has had to do till this year.

One concern for Miami and Wade's numbers is that Miami's strength of schedule has been weak so far (Hollinger has them at dead last and Sagarin 28th) so there going to have tougher games going foward - see b-b's post above for some of those.


----------



## ATLien

You can usually tell how Miamis season is going by the # of Heat posters walking around this area


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

The '93 Heat said:


> The best player on every night of our championship run was Wade. The second best player was any one of James Posey, Antoine Walker, Shaquille O'Neal, or Alonzo Mourning on any given night. More often than not it was one of the other 3 and not Shaq.
> 
> We were a team of Wade and a bunch of hungry old vets. Shaq helped power the lesser players and they helped power him. They all had glaring weaknesses in their game (Shaq especially). That's why our motto was 15 strong because only together could they give Wade the support he needed to win. But to argue that Shaq specifically was somehow indispensable is so far from reality. We could have replaced him with a long list of centers and still Wade and the other vets would have been enough along with that other guy to win a championship. Shaq was a member of a team not a superstar at that point.


No one is saying Wade is not the main reason the heat won the title. wade is the man, sure, why not. but what i dont get is all these wade fans in denial that shaq's production and impact has something to do with it too...you dont disregard a 20 and 10 production in 50% fg before they play the mavs. that's injustice to any unbias and thinking basketball fan.



its a simple fact. the heat would not even sniff an nba finals appearance without shaq at that time, especially not with Zydrunas ilgaukas. shaq was still commanding doubles and was still functioning at 70% from what he was during his laker heyday. look, mourning was a warrior in that playoff run...as a backup...playing limited minutes...



with all the deserving praise that mourning gets now, he's not going to give the heat the same amount of + rating by playing nearly 30 minutes a ball game as the heat's main interior offensive/defensive presence. its not going to happen. shaq made that possible. he took the immense pressure from alonzo and let zo take over defensively in shorter stretches.



give all the credit wade deserves. that i dont have a problem with. but do not call the heats title as wade's personal glory.


----------



## Pioneer10

The '93 Heat said:


> The best player on every night of our championship run was Wade. The second best player was any one of James Posey, Antoine Walker, Shaquille O'Neal, or Alonzo Mourning on any given night. More often than not it was one of the other 3 and not Shaq.
> 
> We were a team of Wade and a bunch of hungry old vets. Shaq helped power the lesser players and they helped power him. They all had glaring weaknesses in their game (Shaq especially). That's why our motto was 15 strong because only together could they give Wade the support he needed to win. But to argue that Shaq specifically was somehow indispensable is so far from reality. We could have replaced him with a long list of centers and still Wade and the other vets would have been enough along with that other guy to win a championship. Shaq was a member of a team not a superstar at that point.


I understand Heat fans correctly pointing out that Wade was definitely the best player on the Heat team and the main reason they won but this is going overboard.
Shaq had a PER of 24.4, played 30 mpg, 20ppg, 9.2 rpg on 60% shooting. The only other big men in the top 15 PER that year were I believe Brand, Duncan, Garnet, Bosh, and Gasol with only Garnett and Brand being more. If you're in that class of big men you're at a superstar level.

The equivalent would be saying that Wade could be replaced by several perimeter players and then listing Kobe, Lebron, Chris Paul as those players. All teams which win title's other then maybe Hakeem's first Houston team had more then one and many times multiple players having great seasons. Wade being the best player in there championship run is not incompatible with the idea that w/o Shaq that team wouldn't have won the title (No team that loses there second best player is good enough to win a title)


----------



## Adam

Pioneer10 said:


> I understand Heat fans correctly pointing out that Wade was definitely the best player on the Heat team and the main reason they won but this is going overboard.
> Shaq had a PER of 24.4, played 30 mpg, 20ppg, 9.2 rpg on 60% shooting. The only other big men in the top 15 PER that year were I believe Brand, Duncan, Garnet, Bosh, and Gasol with only Garnett and Brand being more. If you're in that class of big men you're at a superstar level.
> 
> The equivalent would be saying that Wade could be replaced by several perimeter players and then listing Kobe, Lebron, Chris Paul as those players. All teams which win title's other then maybe Hakeem's first Houston team had more then one and many times multiple players having great seasons. Wade being the best player in there championship run is not incompatible with the idea that w/o Shaq that team wouldn't have won the title (No team that loses there second best player is good enough to win a title)


The problem is that you're using statistics without qualifying them. You're taking his regular season stats and saying that makes him a top center candidate for the playoffs. The only problem is that you're including stats against god awful teams. The southeast division where we played in particular was HORRIBLE. The whole knock on the Heat that year and the reason we were picked against by every single analyst was that we could not beat any teams with winning records. Guess why? Because Shaq was AWFUL against them.

This isn't my opinion as much as you would like to believe. It's historical fact that Shaq was not even our 2nd best player against New Jersey and Chicago. It's fact that the Lenovo stat says the team played better in the finals when he wasn't on the floor! This has nothing to do with my opinion.

And my point about replacing Shaq was that his contribution was secondary so your argument about replacing Wade whose contribution was proven primary to a title doesn't hold water especially when the players you mention have shown no ability to singlehandedly win a title and they have lower PER's than Wade that year. The contribution that we required from players other than Wade was shouldered by more than just Shaq and you could replace him with numerous players and still we would have won. He actually hurt us more than he helped us against the Bulls and Nets.

That's the reason Nets fans and Bulls fans were so disappointed. Nets fans in particular because, in their own words, they lost to 'Wade and Antoine Walker.' When the Bulls, Nets, and Mavs lost with Shaq BENCHED the majority of minutes and they lose to Antoine Walker they feel that they should have won. That's why the Mavs feel they were the better team. They lost to a team with Antoine Walker as its second leading scorer.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

wow. this is absurd to the highest level.




so all along, antoine walker, wade and james posey could've finish the job.



damn you riley for bringin shaq.


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> wow. this is absurd to the highest level.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so all along, antoine walker, wade and james posey could've finish the job.
> 
> 
> 
> damn you riley for bringin shaq.



Could have? They did. Shaq was part of that team but he wasn't irreplaceable.

You remind me of that Knicks fan who asked the Celtics if they know what "formidable" means.

Is there something that you want to argue about the Heat's championship with me? I don't mind filling you in on the history you seem to be clueless.


----------



## Ras

Heated said:


> Whoa what a reach! Even long time comm mods are having trouble with this one. Wade is by far more of a matchup nightmare, who stops him consistently? Who ever has? Teams key directly on him now(,not like they didn't before) but everyone likes to pretend that they didn't cause Shaq was here, now he's healthy again and still blowing people up.
> 
> Lebron is a matchup nightmare? I've seen teams make Lebron's game look pedestrian many times, mainly in the playoffs. We are talking about the same Lebron that shot an unimpressive 41% from the field in *EACH* of his last two playoff outings right? Let me guess, it's because he had no help. Same old tired excuse.
> 
> :clap2: Keep on keepin on.
> 
> It's funny that way, people make excuses for Lebron's shortcomings, while at the same time discrediting Wade's strong points. The story hasn't changed here. It's understandable though. You guys allow this hype to be driven so deep into your brain over the years you actually start to believe.
> 
> You can't teach slashing like Wade. No one comes close to weaving through traffic like he, splitting defenders with ease making ridiculous shots look easy. The consistency in which he does this is unmatched by anyone. How do you guard someone with this natural ability? You don't, you try your best to front him, and clog up the lane? Occasionally a good defense with a strong game plan will slow him down. No one stops him, no one ever has. So tell me how he is less of a match-up nightmare? He's more of one.


You really just seem to be doing to Wade what you criticize everyone for doing to LeBron. You highlight all these strong points of Wade, like clutchness, multiple time all-star, playoff performer, etc, and seem to imply that only applies to Wade. All of those things apply to LeBron too. Remember that game against Detroit he single handidly won for his team in what I think was a game 6? I'd call that clutch, and a playoff performer. Not to mention the numerous other clutch opportunities he's taken advantage of.

Anyways, I'm not here to tell you LeBron is better, but I'm not going to agree that Wade is better. Why can't they just both be two of the very elite players in the league? You just come off as somewhat of a hypocrite by acting as you are.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

The '93 Heat said:


> Could have? They did. Shaq was part of that team but he wasn't irreplaceable.
> 
> You remind me of that Knicks fan who asked the Celtics if they know what "formidable" means.
> 
> Is there something that you want to argue about the Heat's championship with me? I don't mind filling you in on the history you seem to be clueless.


i dont know. anyone who thinks zydrunas ilaguaskas and wade can beat the pistons that year seems pretty clueless to me.


and like Ras said, you come off as a hypocrite and i think you're full of double standards when it comes to trying to get your reasoning across the board.


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> i dont know. anyone who thinks zydrunas ilaguaskas and wade can beat the pistons that year seems pretty clueless to me.
> 
> 
> and like Ras said, you're a hypocrite and i think you're full of double standards when it comes to trying to get your reasoning across the board.


The Pistons almost lost to a bad Cavs team. They were not looked at as strong.

Ras was talking to Heated. I've actually said to you, aznzen, 3 times in this thread that I'm not a Dwyane Wade fan. Seriously, do you even read the responses or do you just converse with yourself? I even listed my top 5 and guess what? LeBron was there but no Wade.

Oh, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas with LeBron can beat the Pistons but not with Wade? You make no sense.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

realgm has a similar thread in full effect right now. some of their credible heat posters in that thread are welcoming the fact that shaq was a vital and critical part of that championship team. you just dont replace him with any big man you feel like adding and say "voila miami" you got a yourself a championship title. rofl.


----------



## Pioneer10

The '93 Heat said:


> The problem is that you're using statistics without qualifying them. You're taking his regular season stats and saying that makes him a top center candidate for the playoffs. The only problem is that you're including stats against god awful teams. The southeast division where we played in particular was HORRIBLE. The whole knock on the Heat that year and the reason we were picked against by every single analyst was that we could not beat any teams with winning records. Guess why? Because Shaq was AWFUL against them.


Yeah it was because Shaq was awful against them and not because of the fact that they had a ton of new players and took a very long time to get some cohesion?



> This isn't my opinion as much as you would like to believe. It's historical fact that Shaq was not even our 2nd best player against New Jersey and Chicago. It's fact that the Lenovo stat says the team played better in the finals when he wasn't on the floor! This has nothing to do with my opinion.


Lenovo is not the be all and end all: +/- numbners with small sample sizes are always off particularly because Miami had a good backup C. All very convenient when you forget all the other numbers
Against Chicago 27, 22, 8, 16, 16, 30. Average 19.5 which is exactly his regular PPG doesn't really help your argument that somehow his regular season numbers are some sort of illusion.



> And my point about replacing Shaq was that his contribution was secondary so your argument about replacing Wade whose contribution was proven primary to a title doesn't hold water especially when the players you mention have shown no ability to singlehandedly win a title and they have lower PER's than Wade that year. The contribution that we required from players other than Wade was shouldered by more than just Shaq and you could replace him with numerous players and still we would have won. He actually hurt us more than he helped us against the Bulls and Nets.


Yeah add an above average center like Ilgauskas and you would have won the title . The 20 ppg against the bulls and second leading scorer against the Bulls and "he hurt the Heat". You're basically going off raw +/- which is very flawed in short game series (that why people use adjusted +/- and net +/- liek at 82games)

And my argument about Shaq does hold: You had only about 5 players that could have replaced Shaq and Miami would have had an equal chance to win the title - that's an extremely short list



> That's the reason Nets fans and Bulls fans were so disappointed. Nets fans in particular because, in their own words, they lost to 'Wade and Antoine Walker.' When the Bulls, Nets, and Mavs lost with Shaq BENCHED the majority of minutes and they lose to Antoine Walker they feel that they should have won. That's why the Mavs feel they were the better team. They lost to a team with Antoine Walker as its second leading scorer.


This classic revisionist history the Mavs felt robbed because of the refs not Antoine Walker. The Mavs didn't concentrate any of there defense on Walker. Teams had to gameplan and double Shaq. Shaq's presence helped the Mavs because he clogged the lane and he forced doubles (not as much when he was younger but teams in the playoffs still sagged and sent help).


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> realgm has a similar thread in full effect right now. some of their credible heat posters in that thread are welcoming the fact that shaq was a vital and critical part of that championship team. you just dont replace him with any big man you feel like adding and say "voila miami" you got a yourself a championship title. rofl.


Antoine Walker was just as vital and critical. And statistics say more important in the finals. That doesn't mean he isn't replaceable.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

The '93 Heat said:


> The Pistons almost lost to a bad Cavs team. They were not looked at as strong.
> 
> Oh, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas with LeBron can beat the Pistons but not with Wade? You make no sense.



lebron and your main man zydrunas along with the rest of the cavaliers had a defensive rating of 101.3 (4th in the league) this is a different team that beat the pistons in 2006-07. you're making this scenario as if zydrunas and lebron alone toppled the pistons.


and i dont buy that you're not a wade fan. sorry. any real heat fan would acknowledge the whole truth rather than disregard a part of it.


----------



## King Joseus

If I recall, Shaq had a couple of bad games in that series against the Bulls (our wins at home). Other than that, though, he was definitely a big-time factor for them.

Really, though, I don't see what the point of all this is. Wade is a machine. Absolutely incredible. So's LeBron. What's the problem?


----------



## Adam

Pioneer10 said:


> Yeah it was because Shaq was awful against them and not because of the fact that they had a ton of new players and took a very long time to get some cohesion?


Or maybe it had to do with Shaq missing a quarter of the season with phantom injuries and undermining our original coach and getting him fired? Did you know that we had our full compliment of players by December and still couldn't win against teams with winning records? Seriously, the next person to challenge ME with the history of my own team better come with some goddamn boxscores because this **** is getting outrageous.



> Lenovo is not the be all and end all: +/- numbners with small sample sizes are always off particularly because Miami had a good backup C. All very convenient when you forget all the other numbers
> Against Chicago 27, 22, 8, 16, 16, 30. Average 19.5 which is exactly his regular PPG doesn't really help your argument that somehow his regular season numbers are some sort of illusion.


Amazing, but you don't see him dribbling the air out of the ball, putting us in early foul trouble, and playing less than 30 minutes in the majority of those games. That's against a first and second round opponent.



> Yeah add an above average center like Ilgauskas and you would have won the title . The 20 ppg against the bulls and second leading scorer against the Bulls and "he hurt the Heat". You're basically going off raw +/- which is very flawed in short game series (that why people use adjusted +/- and net +/- liek at 82games)


Last I checked, LeBron and Big Z beat the Pistons. I think we could have managed. Who is going off +/-? Check his minutes and the number of games he sat against New Jersey. Check how often he was not even the second leading scorer. Check his PPG against Dallas and the fact that until we started playing him less we were down 0-2. Lenovo supports this but apparently that's not good enough for you. I'm sorry? Please tell me how I can make the stats appeal to you in a way that you like. Maybe I should be like you and include his stats against the Bobcats, Wizards, and Hawks which we feasted on.



> And my argument about Shaq does hold: You had only about 5 players that could have replaced Shaq and Miami would have had an equal chance to win the title - that's an extremely short list


My point is that he was replaceable. His contribution to a winning finals was what? 11 ppg? We could get that with a long list of players. How about the fact that you didn't even qualify that 19 ppg against Chicago with the fact that his points in BLOWOUTS was more than in losses? Did you qualify that? You're just pulling boxscore stats out and you don't know what the **** you're talking about. Compare stats in blowouts versus stats in losses and stats in close wins. He got his points in blowouts. He was not a difference maker (Wade was).



> This classic revisionist history the Mavs felt robbed because of the refs not Antoine Walker. The Mavs didn't concentrate any of there defense on Walker. Teams had to gameplan and double Shaq. Shaq's presence helped the Mavs because he clogged the lane and he forced doubles (not as much when he was younger but teams in the playoffs still sagged and sent help).


Shaq's presence helped the Mavs for a myriad of reasons. Which is why he was NOT indispensable. The idea that we couldn't replace our 3rd leading scorer who couldn't play 30 minutes most nights is laughable. But somehow when the stats don't go your way and the anecdotal evidence doesn't support your application of box score stats in Wade blowout victories against lesser opponents you just have to use throwaway comments about those stats not being the "be all end all." How convenient.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

The '93 Heat said:


> Antoine Walker was just as vital and critical. And statistics say more important in the finals. That doesn't mean he isn't replaceable.


sure, but walker is no shaq. he wont get those wide open treys without shaq commanding doubles donw low.


fact


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

King Joseus said:


> Really, though, I don't see what the point of all this is. Wade is a machine. Absolutely incredible. So's LeBron. What's the problem?


no problem. lebron is better than wade. wade is better than lebron. both are equal. different opinions.



problem arise when wade fans claims shaq is turdnoodle and his impact is equally comparable to those of james posey and antonie walker.


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> lebron and your main man zydrunas along with the rest of the cavaliers had a defensive rating of 101.3 (4th in the league) this is a different team that beat the pistons in 2006-07. you're making this scenario as if zydrunas and lebron alone toppled the pistons.


Zydrunas was a starting center for a team that beat the Pistons. You just got done laughing at Big Z starting on a team with Wade and beating the Pistons. Are you a complete moron? This is the second time you have laughed at something you just contradicted yourself on. Arguing with you is like trying to catch rain with a sieve.


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> sure, but walker is no shaq. he wont get those wide open treys without shaq commanding doubles donw low.
> 
> 
> fact


Michael Sweetney played Shaq straight up with no doubles. Jason Collins played Shaq straight up. Ben Wallace played Shaq straight up. Dampier played Shaq straight up. Shaq was not getting doubled at this point in his career. Ask any Bulls, Nets, Pistons, or Mavs fan or maybe like Pioneer anecdotal evidence isn't good enough for you.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

The '93 Heat said:


> Zydrunas was a starting center for a team that beat the Pistons. You just got done laughing at Big Z starting on a team with Wade and beating the Pistons. Are you a complete moron? This is the second time you have laughed at something you just contradicted yourself on. Arguing with you is like trying to catch rain with a sieve.


wow. again.


comprehension is not your strength. work on it.



we get it, your special...just like me:saywhat:


----------



## NewAgeBaller

You guys are still going.. :whoknows:

This thread turned pretty fast.. Pg 1?

Wade & Lebron are both amazing, and together with Kobe, probably make up the consensus Elite 3 (with CP3, etc, arguably challenging them on any night, but imo Wade/Lebron/Kobe are just that level above as game changers).


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

The '93 Heat said:


> Michael Sweetney played Shaq straight up with no doubles. Jason Collins played Shaq straight up. Ben Wallace played Shaq straight up. Ask any Bulls, Nets, Pistons, or Mavs fan or maybe like Pioneer anecdotal evidence isn't good enough for you.


i see the defense collapsing on the diesel, its not a straight up coverage as you claim, blame the slow rotation...there's a few more im sure but its late...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zHmX-02SKk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZQKLPMir0o&feature=related


----------



## Adam

aznzen said:


> i see the defense collapsing on the diesel, its not a straight up coverage as you claim, blame the slow rotation...there's a few more im sure but its late...
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zHmX-02SKk&feature=related
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZQKLPMir0o&feature=related


There was not a single double team in that game 1 video you posted. Those were digs. (I haven't watched the other since you edited).


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

such a luxury to have a big man who can give you 28 pts, 16 rebs and 5 blks in 85% FG in a series clincher.


----------



## Plastic Man

myst said:


> Heat fans have been told that Wade is worse then Brandon Roy, Derrick Rose and even LARRY HUGHES this past year, so I think we should have the right to defend him and celebrate his accomplishments.


What accomplishments? Being 7-6 in *November* and having great stats? We can talk in March and start calling him a top3 player again if he keeps this up for a whole year. I don't know about you but I'm not prepared to call him that 13 games in after essentially taking off 2 years (and this isn't meant as an insult, but he's had his injuries and he fell down a notch on the NBA totempole). It's not only premature to be ranking him the best or implying that these 13 games simply make him better than LeBron (or any other top player for that matter), it's disrespectful towards LBJ (and those top players). 

He is playing great to the start of the season, can't take anything away from him though. Here's to hoping he remains healthy.


----------



## Plastic Man

reHEATed said:


> and he wont be able to. Those are top teams
> 
> the fact that he is leading a team with 2 rookies starting and a 6-8 center to a winning record is an accomplishment in itself. This team isnt going to contend, but Wade is carrying it to a winning record.
> 
> He has had an absolutely amazing season. You see those offensive stats he is putting up, *and imo he is dpoy so far with those steals and blocks. Put it this way- he is top 10 in the NBA in blocks....*the next top guard is Kobe Bryant, at #57.[


That's why it's a good thing to watch actual games. Blocks and steals don't automatically mean good defense (let alone DPOY defense). Wade plays the passing lanes as well as anyone and is a blocking machine (I can't believe that he averages 2 blocks per), but his man defense still leaves a lot to be desired. He's allowing his opponent counterpart to score 17.3 points per 48 mintues on an eFG% of .479 (and a PER of 14.3 if you're a fan of that stat; for comparison's sake and because I think this guy is _actually_ a DPOY candidate in this young season: Bryant is holding his opponent counterpart to 14.8 points per game on an eFG% of .355 - good enough for PER of _7.7_ => now those are DPOY caliber numbers for now ). To make my point clearer, since you're not to good with understanding factual arguments - going by stats alone, you could probably make a case for Chris Paul, who is on Derek Fisher's level when talking about man to man defense (well actually he's worse, depending on how you look at it), being the DPOY. That's how much stats are worth without context.

peace


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Plastic Man said:


> Blocks and steals don't automatically mean good defense (let alone DPOY defense).


They do in the NBA apparently, if Marcus Camby was ever the league's best defensive player..


----------



## futuristxen

This is funny. All of these Wade fans are bugging out. Wade is just doing what he has always done. He's always been just right below Lebron. Lebron has had a slow start to this season, that's why the stats are close, but as the season progresses, I don't expect Wade's shot blocking numbers to stay there, and I think Lebron's assist numbers will go up as will his scoring most likely.

It's also worth dragging out that Lebron's team is one of the best teams in the league this year, and Wade's not so much. Kobe's Lakers are probably the best team.

Just bringing it up because Heat fans used to bring that out all the time back when Lebron was mopping hte floor statistically with Wade, but the Heat had better talent around him and thus finished with a better team record.

If Lebron had had Shaq instead of Kobe when he came into the league, or even Caron Butler and Lamar Odom. When he came into the league it was with Darius Miles and Ricky Davis! If Lebron had had the talent Wade has had on the Heat he'd already have a couple championships.


I think by the time the season ends we'll be able to have a better discussion on this. -


----------



## Plastic Man

NewAgeBaller said:


> They do in the NBA apparently, if Marcus Camby was ever the league's best defensive player..


I know you understand what I meant. 

And I also get your point.


----------



## MrJayremmie

Dang, the Wade fans lost it. I'm sorry, but Wade isn't even on LeBrons level. But the only person even on his level in the game right now is Kobe and possibly Paul but probably just Kobe. Wade is on the level of KG, TD, and maybe CP.. which is great.

Wade is great, but some of these fans are ruining him for me, and really take away from one actually appreciating his game, like what happened to Kobe.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

futuristxen said:


> This is funny. All of these Wade fans are bugging out. Wade is just doing what he has always done. He's always been just right below Lebron. Lebron has had a slow start to this season, that's why the stats are close, but as the season progresses, I don't expect Wade's shot blocking numbers to stay there, and I think Lebron's assist numbers will go up as will his scoring most likely.
> 
> It's also worth dragging out that Lebron's team is one of the best teams in the league this year, and Wade's not so much. Kobe's Lakers are probably the best team.
> 
> Just bringing it up because Heat fans used to bring that out all the time back when Lebron was mopping hte floor statistically with Wade, but the Heat had better talent around him and thus finished with a better team record.
> 
> *If Lebron had had Shaq instead of Kobe when he came into the league, or even Caron Butler and Lamar Odom. When he came into the league it was with Darius Miles and Ricky Davis! If Lebron had had the talent Wade has had on the Heat he'd already have a couple championships.*
> 
> I think by the time the season ends we'll be able to have a better discussion on this. -


I love how you conveniently forgot to mention that Bron had Boozer/Big-Z as a rookie.

Big-Z 03/04 stats - 15ppg 8rpg 2.5bpg and played 81 games.

Boozer 03/04 stats - 15ppg 11rpg and played in 75 games.

They had the 2nd best frontcourt in the East behind only Detroit. No help...my a$$!


----------



## sknydave

ATLien said:


> You can usually tell how Miamis season is going by the # of Heat posters walking around this area


Stop by the Heat forum one day. There was more activity there than just about every other team board, even when the Heat had 15 wins last year.


----------



## myst

MrJayremmie said:


> Dang, the Wade fans lost it. I'm sorry, but Wade isn't even on LeBrons level. But the only person even on his level in the game right now is Kobe and possibly Paul but probably just Kobe. Wade is on the level of KG, TD, and maybe CP.. which is great.
> 
> Wade is great, but some of these fans are ruining him for me, and really take away from one actually appreciating his game, like what happened to Kobe.


There are like two-three posters in this thread saying Wade is the best in the game, and two-three going nuts because of their opinion. Even the OP says he doesn't really think that. So don't just read 1 page and decide all Wade fans are crazy.




sknydave said:


> Stop by the Heat forum one day. There was more activity there than just about every other team board, even when the Heat had 15 wins last year.


That's very true.


----------



## HB

Heated said:


> Whoa what a reach! Even long time comm mods are having trouble with this one. Wade is by far more of a matchup nightmare, who stops him consistently? Who ever has? Teams key directly on him now(,not like they didn't before) but everyone likes to pretend that they didn't cause Shaq was here, now he's healthy again and still blowing people up.
> 
> Lebron is a matchup nightmare? I've seen teams make Lebron's game look pedestrian many times, mainly in the playoffs. We are talking about the same Lebron that shot an unimpressive 41% from the field in *EACH* of his last two playoff outings right? Let me guess, it's because he had no help. Same old tired excuse.
> 
> :clap2: Keep on keepin on.
> 
> It's funny that way, people make excuses for Lebron's shortcomings, while at the same time discrediting Wade's strong points. The story hasn't changed here. It's understandable though. You guys allow this hype to be driven so deep into your brain over the years you actually start to believe.
> 
> You can't teach slashing like Wade. No one comes close to weaving through traffic like he, splitting defenders with ease making ridiculous shots look easy. The consistency in which he does this is unmatched by anyone. How do you guard someone with this natural ability? You don't, you try your best to front him, and clog up the lane? Occasionally a good defense with a strong game plan will slow him down. No one stops him, no one ever has. So tell me how he is less of a match-up nightmare? He's more of one.


You must have missed last year's playoffs when Bron and co. almost defeated the Celtics alone. Or the previous year when he took that team to the finals. Say what you want about Shaq, but Wade and the Heat have not replicated the success they had with him. Do you really think the Heat could take the Celtics to 7 games in a playoff series?

Bron is a matchup nightmare because he is PG/SG/SF/PF/C all rolled into one. Now that he is surrounded by shooters, double teaming him is almost impossible.


----------



## HB

The '93 Heat said:


> That's the reason Nets fans and Bulls fans were so disappointed. Nets fans in particular because, in their own words, they lost to 'Wade and Antoine Walker.' When the Bulls, Nets, and Mavs lost with Shaq BENCHED the majority of minutes and they lose to Antoine Walker they feel that they should have won. That's why the Mavs feel they were the better team. They lost to a team with Antoine Walker as its second leading scorer.


Actually Nets fans pretty much agreed that Shaq was probably the biggest reason why we lost. It was given that Wade would have big games, but because of the attention Shaq was getting in the post, guys like Posey, Jones and Walker were getting open looks throughout the series.


----------



## Smithian

Shaq played a huge part in getting the Heat to the finals, and had some amazing games along the way, especially in close out games. In the Finals, he was useless outside of acting as a point center at times and letting D-Wade getting better position without the ball before he threw it back out. The Mavs probably preferred Shaq in the lane over Alonzo Mourning.


----------



## Pioneer10

The '93 Heat said:


> Or maybe it had to do with Shaq missing a quarter of the season with phantom injuries and undermining our original coach and getting him fired? Did you know that we had our full compliment of players by December and still couldn't win against teams with winning records? Seriously, the next person to challenge ME with the history of my own team better come with some goddamn boxscores because this **** is getting outrageous.


Hogwash: the Heat traded a huge number of players: somehow this all sort of should have clicked immediately. Just look at what you're typing. Full complement only by December when the season is already 2 months in and then these guys have to get used to playing together.



> Amazing, but you don't see him dribbling the air out of the ball, putting us in early foul trouble, and playing less than 30 minutes in the majority of those games. That's against a first and second round opponent.


Yeah that's all he did. He averaged 30.5 mpg that series. Again that's the same he as he played in the regular season. 1/2 those game he played over 30 minutes. You don't know "you're team" very well




> Last I checked, LeBron and Big Z beat the Pistons. I think we could have managed. Who is going off +/-? Check his minutes and the number of games he sat against New Jersey. Check how often he was not even the second leading scorer. Check his PPG against Dallas and the fact that until we started playing him less we were down 0-2. Lenovo supports this but apparently that's not good enough for you. I'm sorry? Please tell me how I can make the stats appeal to you in a way that you like. Maybe I should be like you and include his stats against the Bobcats, Wizards, and Hawks which we feasted on.


:rofl: he averaged 30.9 mpg against the Nets. Just like the Bulls series this was exactly the same as his regular season numbers. Please tell you know anything about stats.




> My point is that he was replaceable. His contribution to a winning finals was what? 11 ppg? We could get that with a long list of players. How about the fact that you didn't even qualify that 19 ppg against Chicago with the fact that his points in BLOWOUTS was more than in losses? Did you qualify that? You're just pulling boxscore stats out and you don't know what the **** you're talking about. Compare stats in blowouts versus stats in losses and stats in close wins. He got his points in blowouts. He was not a difference maker (Wade was).


:Rofl: Shaq's had his big minute against the Bulls in there WINS. Your numbers are way off as wellL: Shaq averaged 24 ppg in the Heat wins that series and only 12 ppg in there losses. That data indicate more that when the Heat lost, Shaq wasn't contributing much: i.e. they needed him to score.

Of course Wade is a difference make: you're bringing strawmen into your argument. To give you some reference no one who watched Showtime is going to tell you Worthy is better then Magic but no is going to tell you that Worthy was also invaluable to the team. 





> Shaq's presence helped the Mavs for a myriad of reasons. Which is why he was NOT indispensable. The idea that we couldn't replace our 3rd leading scorer who couldn't play 30 minutes most nights is laughable. But somehow when the stats don't go your way and the anecdotal evidence doesn't support your application of box score stats in Wade blowout victories against lesser opponents you just have to use throwaway comments about those stats not being the "be all end all." How convenient.


The stats do go my way. Quite convenient for a guy quoting stats who gets them wrong: you're going off your personal observations over a few games (i.e. the Bulls game that Shaq didn't play a lot of minute and the Heat lost) and making "an argument" over the entire playoffs.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

HEATLUNATIC said:


> I love how you conveniently forgot to mention that Bron had Boozer/Big-Z as a rookie.
> 
> Big-Z 03/04 stats - 15ppg 8rpg 2.5bpg and played 81 games.
> 
> Boozer 03/04 stats - 15ppg 11rpg and played in 75 games.
> 
> They had the 2nd best frontcourt in the East behind only Detroit. No help...my a$$!


FYI, the Cavs had both those players the prior season when we won 17 games and got in position to land Lebron in the 1st place.


----------



## ATLien

sknydave said:


> Stop by the Heat forum one day. There was more activity there than just about every other team board, even when the Heat had 15 wins last year.


I think I said "this area" as meaning NBA Forum, but it's cool if you can't read.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

[email protected] ownage by a supposedly non wade/heat first so called fan. lol.


----------



## KillWill

. . . this week.


----------



## OneBadLT123

aznzen said:


> [email protected] ownage by a supposedly non wade/heat first so called fan. lol.


Ownage? At least the guy is trying to prove his point instead of you just going:

"omg kobe is better"
"kobe MVP"
"lebron is better!"
"lebron less talent!"
"omg lebron better slasher!"
"wade less than kobe!"
"Lakers!"
"shaq was best center!"
"HAHAH pwn3d!!!11"

Not once have you ever backed your opinion with anything relevant to the topic. You just let all the other people do the talking for you. How typical of a troll.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

OneBadLT123 said:


> Ownage? At least the guy is trying to prove his point instead of you just going:
> 
> "omg kobe is better"
> "kobe MVP"
> "lebron is better!"
> "lebron less talent!"
> "omg lebron better slasher!"
> "wade less than kobe!"
> "Lakers!"
> "shaq was best center!"
> "HAHAH pwn3d!!!11"
> .



rofl i didnt even said those...not necessary




OneBadLT123 said:


> Not once have you ever backed your opinion with anything relevant to the topic. You just let all the other people do the talking for you. How typical of a troll.


i posted before pioneer, hb and even the rest of the heat fan has been saying and you're calling me a troll? no wonder people doesnt post in this board anymore. most of the mods here are too quick to call out on people.


you're a hypocrite. why dont you go post some of your opinions before butting in out of nowhere.


----------



## PauloCatarino

OneBadLT123 said:


> Ownage? At least the guy is trying to prove his point instead of you just going:
> 
> "omg kobe is better"
> "kobe MVP"
> "lebron is better!"
> "lebron less talent!"
> "omg lebron better slasher!"
> "wade less than kobe!"
> "Lakers!"
> "shaq was best center!"
> "HAHAH pwn3d!!!11"
> 
> Not once have you ever backed your opinion with anything relevant to the topic. You just let all the other people do the talking for you. How typical of a troll.


Yeah, i don't see many arguments being thrown around (unless the arguing about Shaq's role in the Heat championship team counts)...

To claim player X as being the best in the league you must put forth more than mere stats. On the other hand, if one defends player X ain't better than player Y or Z, the "rule" should also apply.

About Wade, eventhough he is having a great season, it's still too damned early to be crowning him. I mean, so far this season Chris Paul is having the greatest PER stat of any player EVER (or at least ever since the stat is available). So what?

Let's wait and see if Wade can keep his production AND help the Heat climb the win column.


----------



## Flash is the Future

PauloCatarino said:


> Yeah, i don't see many arguments being thrown around (unless the arguing about Shaq's role in the Heat championship team counts)...
> 
> To claim player X as being the best in the league you must put forth more than mere stats. On the other hand, if one defends player X ain't better than player Y or Z, the "rule" should also apply.
> 
> About Wade, eventhough he is having a great season, it's still too damned early to be crowning him. I mean, so far this season Chris Paul is having the greatest PER stat of any player EVER (or at least ever since the stat is available). So what?
> 
> Let's wait and see if Wade can keep his production AND help the Heat climb the win column.


Chris Paul? Chris Paul's PER was lower than Wade's just yesterday. Now it's higher by .09. So you're right, it's too early to tell, but history tells us that barring injury Wade will keep up his over 30 PER. We'll everyone does.


----------



## Diable

Chris Paul just had pretty much the best statistical game of the year last night and it wasn't that much better than any other game he's played this year.


----------



## MrJayremmie

> There are like two-three posters in this thread saying Wade is the best in the game, and two-three going nuts because of their opinion. Even the OP says he doesn't really think that. So don't just read 1 page and decide all Wade fans are crazy.



because i don't have 50 posts per page...

Its actually hilarious thread imo.



> Chris Paul just had pretty much the best statistical game of the year last night and it wasn't that much better than any other game he's played this year.


Chris Paul is a monster, and imo the 3rd best player...

I got...

1. LeBron
2. Kobe
3. Paul
4. Duncan
5. Wade
6. KG

But imo too many people are counting Kobe out just because he has a better team he doesn't have to put up stats like he had to back in 06 or somethin'... LeBron's team is getting somewhat better and he does what he has to do to win also... but LeBrons 30ppg, 7+rpg and 7+apg last year was unreal.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

yeah^ kobe is also playing some of the best defense this year. 





yes better than wade.


----------



## Diable

Carlos Delfino loves Kobe's defense almost as much as Rudy Fernandez does


----------



## MrJayremmie

I think we all need a group hug, tbh.

I think we should all realize this is mostly opinion anyway, and past that, there is a bias involved.



> Carlos Delfino loves Kobe's defense almost as much as *Rudy Fernandez* does


Just love upon rudy... he is awesome. Best player in the NBA, imo.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

PER numbers dont lie...


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

MrJayremmie said:


> I think we all need a group hug, tbh.
> 
> I think we should all realize this is mostly opinion anyway, and past that, *there is a bias involved*.


yeah. i have yet to meet a poster who posts with no bias at all...maybe ballscinetist.


----------



## Dee-Zy

aznzen said:


> [email protected] ownage by a supposedly non wade/heat first so called fan. lol.


I'm confused... are you referring to me?


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

no


----------



## JT

difference between Wade and LeBron is akin to the gulf between Bird and Wilkins.


----------



## Cap

How are people still delusional enough to think Wade deserves to be put ahead of LeBron in any facet of the game unless they're stuck in 2006? Fact is LeBron has been much healthier and more dominant than Wade for 2 years now. And LeBron is having just as brilliant an individual season this year again.


----------



## Basel

aznzen said:


> yeah. i have yet to meet a poster who posts with no bias at all...maybe ballscinetist.


I post with no bias. 

Wade is great and is having a hell of a year so far. I still think right now, Kobe, LeBron, Duncan and Paul are better, but he's still top 5.


----------



## Adam

Pioneer10 said:


> Hogwash: the Heat traded a huge number of players: somehow this all sort of should have clicked immediately. Just look at what you're typing. Full complement only by December when the season is already 2 months in and then these guys have to get used to playing together.


Yet that is not the reason why we did not have a winning record against winning teams. I guess I just got lucky to cite that fact from 3 years ago because I don't know my team, right? I wish you could go educate yourself on google or wherever you're going to get to at least a level where you can argue your point without looking completely unknowledgeable.

In 2004-2005 we had 2 new starters (3 including Shaq) and we won 59 games. The Boston Celtics had how many new starters last year? The Pistons plugged Rasheed Wallace in mid-season and still won a championship. Shaq didn't suck because we had new starters. That's moronic.

You throwaway my points about Shaq struggling against teams with winning records. You throw away my fact about the Lenovo showing we played better with him on the bench. Obviously you will stand quite comfortable on your side of the fence when you invalidate all my points for biased reasons. Those are all facts that you should deal with and refute not make up terse comments like, "it's not the be all end all," or make up excuses about team chemistry or whatever you're arguing to explain Shaq's individual struggles. You've proven nothing but an ability to placate your own confidence in this argument.



> Yeah that's all he did. He averaged 30.5 mpg that series. Again that's the same he as he played in the regular season. 1/2 those game he played over 30 minutes. You don't know "you're team" very well


Yes, the same regular season he bumbled through with phony injuries. "You're" argument is immaterial to Shaq being REPLACEABLE on this TEAM. You have not shown how he is indispensable so your satisfaction with this line of arguing is bizarre.




> :rofl: he averaged 30.9 mpg against the Nets. Just like the Bulls series this was exactly the same as his regular season numbers. Please tell you know anything about stats.


I'm so glad that you could go to box scores. Did they show him not stepping out on pick and rolls against he Bulls? Hinrich and Gordon got him in a pick and roll every single time and abused him. 30 mpg is an awful average. Thanks for proving that we could have gotten another center to play 35+




> :Rofl: Shaq's had his big minute against the Bulls in there WINS. Your numbers are way off as wellL: Shaq averaged 24 ppg in the Heat wins that series and only 12 ppg in there losses. That data indicate more that when the Heat lost, Shaq wasn't contributing much: i.e. they needed him to score.


No, the data show that when we weren't blowing out opponents with our team game then Shaq was useless. Unless he was catching wide open passes from Wade and getting his 20 in a blowout win he was sitting on the bench in losses with single digits (which happened many times) because he hurt us in competitive games so we had to bench him. Did you notice a trend of bench players and role players also producing big scoring games when Shaq had his? Did you check for any correlation? Of course you didn't. You just look at regular season stats against the Hawks, Bobcats, and Wizards and apply them to the playoffs. You don't know anything about statistical argument.



> Of course Wade is a difference make: you're bringing strawmen into your argument. To give you some reference no one who watched Showtime is going to tell you Worthy is better then Magic but no is going to tell you that Worthy was also invaluable to the team.


A STRAWMAN?! What is this freshman English? My whole argument is that Wade was indispensable and the compliment around him were replaceable. Shaq was no less replaceable than Antoine Walker. What have you shown at all in all your posts to prove this wrong? Shaq sitting on the bench in every single 4th quarter against the Mavs? Alonzo Mourning playing the entire 4th quarter in game 6?





> The stats do go my way. Quite convenient for a guy quoting stats who gets them wrong: you're going off your personal observations over a few games (i.e. the Bulls game that Shaq didn't play a lot of minute and the Heat lost) and making "an argument" over the entire playoffs.


No, you actually just misinterpreted the stats. You wrongly assume that correlation equals causation (since you love logical fallacies so much) and Shaq not scoring caused losses when actually the team showed it could win with Shaq on the bench so that refutes your thinking.


----------



## Flash is the Future

EHL said:


> How are people still delusional enough to think Wade deserves to be put ahead of LeBron in any facet of the game unless they're stuck in 2006? Fact is LeBron has been much healthier and more dominant than Wade for 2 years now. And LeBron is having just as brilliant an individual season this year again.


Because...if you don't think that Wade's better than Lebron at any facet of the game, then you're stuck in 2007. It's 2008, and Wade has emerged better than ever (including 2006).


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

Flash is the Future said:


> Because...if you don't think that Wade's better than Lebron at any facet of the game, then you're stuck in 2007. It's 2008, and Wade has emerged better than ever (including 2006).


yeah wade emerged again, he's healthy and he's been great but i think lebron is just out of his mind this year.



i thought last year was crazy but this guy keeps getting better. he's much more explosive and his defense has improved tremendously.




he's also making some huge strides on his biggest weakness(jumper) and he's only what 23?


----------



## Flash is the Future

aznzen said:


> yeah wade emerged again, he's healthy and he's been great but i think lebron is just out of his mind this year.
> 
> 
> 
> i thought last year was crazy but this guy keeps getting better. he's much more explosive and his defense has improved tremendously.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> he's also making some huge strides on his biggest weakness(jumper) and he's only what 23?


Yup. I'm one of the Heat fans that agree that Lebron is better. I just like to keep the facts straight. :whistling:


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

The '93 Heat said:


> No, you actually just misinterpreted the stats. You wrongly assume that correlation equals causation (since you love logical fallacies so much) and Shaq not scoring caused losses when actually the team showed it could win with Shaq on the bench so that refutes your thinking.


i dont see any fallacy with what pioneer posted. if anything you're the one posting with no basis discrediting the impossible.




you said shaq was non existent in chicago and new jersey, and when credit is due, never did you mention his very respectable numbers against detroit. you skipped that and go to lenovo to prove your point. 



you went further and stated that almost any big man in the league can produce the same results, but with Zydrunas, the Heat will do better? you claim that lebron and big Z beat the pistons, so miami can do the same with ilgauskas, how the hell is that possible? Cleveland was # 4 in defensive rating that year, something Miami is not. Isn't that a fallacy? 



you're reaching way too low and you're not even being objective with your reasoning.


----------



## futuristxen

aznzen said:


> yeah wade emerged again, he's healthy and he's been great but i think lebron is just out of his mind this year.
> 
> 
> 
> i thought last year was crazy but this guy keeps getting better. he's much more explosive and his defense has improved tremendously.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> he's also making some huge strides on his biggest weakness(jumper) and he's only what 23?


Wade is 26. 27 in January. Lebron is the one that is 23. He'll be 24 in a month though. He's been better than Wade every single year they've been in the league. People are just getting their shots in early before Wade's ppg numbers drop and his blocks per game drop and he's back do his normal numbers.

Lebron's numbers are actually low for what he's been doing the past few years.


----------



## croco

futuristxen said:


> Wade is 26. 27 in January. Lebron is the one that is 23. He'll be 24 in a month though. He's been better than Wade every single year they've been in the league. People are just getting their shots in early before Wade's ppg numbers drop and his blocks per game drop and he's back do his normal numbers.
> 
> Lebron's numbers are actually low for what he's been doing the past few years.


Lebron is having the highest PER of his career so far, 29/8/7 is also right where he has been the last couple years.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Wade is great. I would rather have LeBron or Paul though. LeBron is just the ultimate basketball player and Chris Paul dominates games with his ball handling and playmaking abilities like nobody I've ever seen.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

futuristxen said:


> He's been better than Wade every single year they've been in the league. People are just getting their shots in early before Wade's ppg numbers drop and his blocks per game drop and he's back do his normal numbers.
> 
> Lebron's numbers are actually low for what he's been doing the past few years.


i agree. though id give wade the slight edge in 05-06. wade was just unreal that season.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Sir Patchwork said:


> Wade is great. I would rather have LeBron or Paul though. LeBron is just the ultimate basketball player and *Chris Paul dominates games with his ball handling and playmaking abilities like nobody I've ever seen.*



Yo've just stuck a dagger in my back, Patches! How could you?!?!?!? :brokenhea


----------



## Sir Patchwork

PauloCatarino said:


> Yo've just stuck a dagger in my back, Patches! How could you?!?!?!? :brokenhea


I don't pretend to have watched basketball in the 80's as I was only 6 years old by the time 1990 came around. All I've really seen of your boy is what I've seen on classic sports, but that's not enough to really say anything for sure. So when I say that about Paul, I mean the past 15 years or so. Your boy is safe!


----------



## PauloCatarino

Sir Patchwork said:


> I don't pretend to have watched basketball in the 80's as I was only 6 years old by the time 1990 came around. All I've really seen of your boy is what I've seen on classic sports, but that's not enough to really say anything for sure. So when I say that about Paul, I mean the past 15 years or so. Your boy is safe!


 I was only kidding, off course. 

But i was talking abour Magic AND Zeke. And Chris remembers me a lot more of Isiah than, off course, Magic (whose game was very, very unorthodox). Stockton was not the scorer Paul is. So yeah, your point is NOT moot.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

Basel57 said:


> I post with no bias.
> 
> Wade is great and is having a hell of a year so far. I still think right now, Kobe, LeBron, Duncan and Paul are better, but he's still top 5.


The only players in your post that have rings (as #1 options) and finals MVP's are Wade and Duncan. Get back to me when the other 3 are actually on the level!


----------



## JT

croco said:


> Lebron is having the highest PER of his career so far, 29/8/7 is also right where he has been the last couple years.


let's not go overboard with the number-crunching.


----------



## JT

HEATLUNATIC said:


> The only players in your post that have rings (as #1 options) and finals MVP's are Wade and Duncan. Get back to me when the other 3 are actually on the level!


and also let us not go overboard with the inanity.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

lol


----------



## Ras

HEATLUNATIC said:


> The only players in your post that have rings (as #1 options) and finals MVP's are Wade and Duncan. Get back to me when the other 3 are actually on the level!


Why are you implying that Duncan and Wade are better now because of that? That isn't really relevant to who is the better player, for a few reasons. First, it was years ago now, and isn't really relevant to right now. Also, it's a matter of circumstance as well. LeBron has never had the supporting cast Tim Duncan has, or even Wade that championship season. Player's don't win championship, teams do.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

sherako said:


> and also let us not go overboard with the inanity.


Kobe - each time he was the #1 option in the finals he failed miserably.

Bron - swept!

CP3 - hes never even been to the show.

When it comes to Super-Stars...winning is all that people remember.


----------



## Omega

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Kobe - each time he was the #1 option in the finals he failed miserably.
> 
> Bron - swept!
> 
> CP3 - hes never even been to the show.
> 
> When it comes to Super-Stars...winning is all that people remember.


please read Ras's post above yours. thank you


----------



## JT

well you must have retrograde amnesia then!


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

Ras said:


> Why are you implying that Duncan and Wade are better now because of that? That isn't really relevant to who is the better player, for a few reasons. First, it was years ago now, and isn't really relevant to right now. Also, it's a matter of circumstance as well. LeBron has never had the supporting cast Tim Duncan has, or even Wade that championship season. Player's don't win championship, teams do.


Dont try and turn the team that Wade was on into a juggernaut! Everyone knows that Shaq, Zo, Payton, Walker and J-Will were all on the downside of their careers.


----------



## Dornado

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Dont try and turn the team that Wade was on into a juggernaut! Everyone knows that Shaq, Zo, Payton, Walker and J-Will were all on the downside of their careers.


Shaq was still a force at that point, and even if he was scoring closer to 20 ppg than 30, he still changed the way teams had to defend that squad. His presence didn't always show up on the stat sheet, but he was definitely a major factor.


----------



## Ras

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Dont try and turn the team that Wade was on into a juggernaut! Everyone knows that Shaq, Zo, Payton, Walker and J-Will were all on the downside of their careers.


You know as soon as I posted that, I thought you would pick a small aspect of the point and try to dispute that instead of addressing the whole thing. The main point is, that isn't relevant now, at all. You can't say how any other player would've done in his shoes, and it's completely meaningless because it was years ago. Just because Duncan won a chip (let alone 4) years ago doesn't mean I'd take him over LeBron now. And that's besides the point that being on a championship team doesn't automatically make you a better player. Team's win championships.

Also, I never said it was a juggernaut, but like Dornado said, Shaq was still a force. He drew attention, and was a big reason why it all worked. Not to mention the other role players, like James Posey and Zo, played their roles well. Besides, weren't all the Heat fans clambering that Zo was still the best back up centre in the league, and Shaq was still the best centre in the East at that time? You can't have your cake and eat it too. It seems as if when it comes to propping up Wade, all of a sudden that team was bad, and Shaq was garbage. But, when Shaq was still with the Heat, they were all saying he was great, and were hesitant to label Yao better centre. It is as it is; history can't just be revisioned in order to fit an agenda like so many people seem to do.

Also, please don't just pick out one point, like refuting that Heat fans all called Shaq the best centre in the East or something, and ignore my overall point. That's all semantical.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Billups and Pierce > Paul, Kobe and LeBron? 

I will let you be that idiot.


----------



## Omega

Antoine walker has more nba championship rings than lebron james and chris paul combined. yeah i said it.


----------



## SlamJam

A healthy Wade doesn't take a backseat to LeBron at all; to say otherwise is just ignoring the facts. Problem is, health does count and Wade still has to prove himself there.


----------



## sknydave

ATLien said:


> I think I said "this area" as meaning NBA Forum, but it's cool if you can't read.


awww there, there. No need to get your diapers in a bunch.


----------



## Brandname

Bron's put up some good numbers for quite a while. The biggest difference (and what catapulted him to #1 in my mind) is that he's maintaining those numbers right now with some really amazing individual defense. 

He does not have the steals or blocks that Wade does. In fact, if you look at his steal numbers throughout his career, they have steadily declined. This exactly coincides with his improvement in man defense, and I will let you imagine why. Wade is certainly great at taking passing lanes, and he's not a bad one on one defender, but moreso just kind of average from what I have seen so far. I will say that his blocks are just crazy though. That's very impressive, and I haven't seen a guard who can block shots like he can that much. I have noticed that Lebron doesn't go up for blocks very much anymore unless it's on the fast break. Somewhere along the line he learned that it's more effective to close out on the shooter without jumping, and I'm grateful for that. He blocks much less as a result, but he also really plays solid, fundamental defense. 

All the talk about championships is really pretty unimportant. All of Kobe, Lebron, and Wade have proven that they can be clutch at the highest level of competition, and they've all been to the finals as #1 options. Beyond that, it's mostly a matter of circumstance and teams to determine # of rings, etc. 

I don't know really where I rate Kobe, Wade, and CP3 in relation to each other right now. Kobe is clearly having the worst season statistically, but we also know that it isn't for lack of ability. He doesn't have to dominate individually for the Lakers to wipe the floor with everyone. CP3 is a freak of nature, I just have a few questions about his defense which I believe can be exploited. Still, his effect on games is right at the top of the league. 

I think there can be a legitimate argument for all these guys. 

I will say that I missed your constant ravings against Lebron, HEATED. You seem to take it as such a personal affront that people think he's better than Wade.


----------



## kirov

ofcourse, "LeGold" is the best...:verysad:


----------



## ChrisRichards

I'm a huge D-Wade fan, but LeBron is the best.

Wade is tearing the Suns up right now


----------



## BlackNRed

ChrisRichards said:


> I'm a huge D-Wade fan, but LeBron is the best.
> 
> Wade is tearing the Suns up right now


Good for you. It doesn't matter who you're a fan of.. only if you allow yourself to be a victim of the hype machine or not.

Also you're gonna need to provide more than 'i'm a Wade fan' to prove what you say is the truth. 175 posts and not one legitimate argument showing Lebron to be better, yet 95% of the board believes it to be the truth. I rest my case on the hype machine theory.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Good to see fellow Floridian HEAT and Dolphin fan.

Wade is amazing and I put him 2nd best in the league, after LeBron. Why do you think he is better than LeBron?


----------



## Shaoxia

Because LeBron's shot is beyond terrible while Wade has one of the best mid-range games in the league. Now that Wade can shoot 3s too, he's the second most complete scorer in the league (behind Kobe). He's a better passer and smarter player than Kobe so that puts him over the top in my opinion.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

^ Lebron's shot isn't "beyond terrible". It isn't as smooth as Wade's, but I'd say its definately adequate given the rest of his game.


----------



## Shaoxia

NewAgeBaller said:


> ^ Lebron's shot isn't "beyond terrible". It isn't as smooth as Wade's, but I'd say its definately adequate given the rest of his game.


You're wrong. Check out the hot spots stat on nba.com if you don't believe me.


----------



## 77AJ

D Wade with a huge game with 43 points and 6 assists against the Suns tonight. As the Heat crush the Suns. Simply amazing season so far by Wade, guy is on his way back, no doubt in the running for top billing for MVP with his play so far this season. It would be a huge story if the Heat make the playoffs, and Wade dominates, I could see him getting the MVP.


----------



## Shaoxia

23AJ said:


> D Wade with a huge game with 43 points and 6 assists against the Suns tonight. As the Heat crush the Suns. Simply amazing season so far by Wade, guy is on his way back, no doubt in the running for top billing for MVP with his play so far this season. It would be a huge story if the Heat make the playoffs, and Wade dominates, I could see him getting the MVP.


No way, the Heat would have to win at least 50 games and even then, LeBron's stats are about as good as Wade's and the Cavs will finish with a much better record. LeBron has to win it this year, everything else would be a joke. I believe Wade is as valuable as LeBron but I know how the voters think so I'd be surprised if LeBron doesn't win it this year.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

Shaoxia said:


> You're wrong. Check out the hot spots stat on nba.com if you don't believe me.


yeah thats a pretty good tool a lot of people doesnt use.


----------



## 77AJ

Shaoxia said:


> No way, the Heat would have to win at least 50 games and even then, LeBron's stats are about as good as Wade's and the Cavs will finish with a much better record. LeBron has to win it this year, everything else would be a joke. I believe Wade is as valuable as LeBron but I know how the voters think so I'd be surprised if LeBron doesn't win it this year.


It's way to early to just hand the MVP trophy to any player, but Wade is playing the best individual basketball in the league right now, and that's not a joke. By the way LeBrons numbers/stats continue to drop. No doubt LeBron is the early leading candidate for MVP, however Wade is easily in second, and coming on strong with huge huge numbers. After that you have guy's like Bosh, Nowitzki, Howard, and Paul. This season will be interesting to follow, I believe we will see how good the Cavs really are once they actually play better teams, so far this year LeBron has been terrible in all their losses and all the losses the Cavs have had were against good teams. Also It looks like KG might get his second DPOTYA as the Celtics are starting to click again, and looking great on defense holding teams to low shooting percentage shooting. Should be a great season of NBA basketball.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

wade,lebron and bosh.



those three will have interchangeable numbers as the season goes by, so you cant use the, his numbers are _"up"_ and the others are_ "down"_ argument, seeing as these three will not have a significant drop with their respective stats. so its insanely difficult to say whose the absolute best player right now.



so what do we do in that case? we go with their teams record to seal the deal.


----------



## Dee-Zy

Pretty much...

I don't see raps or heat having a better record than Cavs. If hornets finish strong with like 60 wins, CP3 might run away with the MVP trophy though...


----------



## Dee-Zy

In other News, Wade is now leading the NBA in PPG as of today. Bron dropped to 3rd.


----------



## MrJayremmie

LeBron's points have been dropping a bit, but it is because his team is winning and some games he has played very limited minutes because the won handily. Wade does everything for his team (similar to LeBron last year and Kobe a couple years ago).

Wade is just having an absolutely marvelous season. Wade has also probably been the best statistical player in the NBA so far this year. But he won't put up numbers like what LeBron put up last year, imo. 30ppg, 7+rpg and apg... he had a 30, 7 and 7 season... that is insane. I think he is concentrated on doing what he can to make sure his team wins, and the fact that his team IS winning, I think that will probably end up giving him the MVP. 

And while I think he is the best player, and he was the most valuable player to his team last year, his team got a little better and Wade has been more valuable to his team this year.

This is from a portland fan (but i've though LeBron has been the best player since the 07 playoffs vs Detroit).


----------



## Dee-Zy

No doubt Wade has better stats because he has to do more for his team. The "Wade is the best player in the NBA" was sarcastic. I don't think most members here do believe that. I think most of us will agree that Bron and Kobe are "technically" better but so far this season, Wade is definitely playing better than Lebron.

The difference is in "playing better" vs "is better".

It is really not important. The important thing is the win loss column but it is always fun to discuss who is better.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

this thread is not really that far from the truth, because wade is a much complete player than lebron.


----------



## Adam

MrJayremmie said:


> LeBron's points have been dropping a bit, but it is because his team is winning and some games he has played very limited minutes because the won handily. Wade does everything for his team (similar to LeBron last year and Kobe a couple years ago).
> 
> Wade is just having an absolutely marvelous season. Wade has also probably been the best statistical player in the NBA so far this year. But he won't put up numbers like what LeBron put up last year, imo. 30ppg, 7+rpg and apg... he had a 30, 7 and 7 season... that is insane. I think he is concentrated on doing what he can to make sure his team wins, and the fact that his team IS winning, I think that will probably end up giving him the MVP.
> 
> And while I think he is the best player, and he was the most valuable player to his team last year, his team got a little better and Wade has been more valuable to his team this year.
> 
> This is from a portland fan (but i've though LeBron has been the best player since the 07 playoffs vs Detroit).


They're playing virtually identical minutes. Wade has also sat in numerous blowouts as well. On any given night either of them will play 40 minutes that's why we take an average and the average says they play the same number of minutes.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

aznzen said:


> *this thread is not really that far from the truth*, because wade is a much complete player than lebron.


I probably hold Lebron/Kobe at #1/2 but like you said, the only thing thats really worth arguing here is against the people that basically say _"Lebron and Kobe are #1 and #2. Then theres a huge drop-off to Wade/CP3/Dwight/Deron/etc.."_


----------



## v-insane

HARRIS , VC , KOBE , Lebron , Bosh , Wade , Garnett , Pierce .. They are all good


----------



## rayz789

The '93 Heat said:


> The Pistons almost lost to a bad Cavs team. They were not looked at as strong.
> 
> Ras was talking to Heated. I've actually said to you, aznzen, 3 times in this thread that I'm not a Dwyane Wade fan. Seriously, do you even read the responses or do you just converse with yourself? I even listed my top 5 and guess what? LeBron was there but no Wade.
> 
> Oh, and Zydrunas Ilgauskas with LeBron can beat the Pistons but not with Wade? You make no sense.


Dude, Are you freaking kidding me? You already lost your argument when you say Wade would have still win a ring if Big Z was a starting Center replacing Shaq lolololol. And for you to say that Walker beside Wade is the reason for the Heat winning a ring is freaking retarded. Anybody with a damn brain knows easily Shaq was the reason the Heat won a ring. Sure his ppg were a bit low but he still brings the presence that he gets triple team, double team and that free up Wade to do his thing. Also who did the Heat beat in the finals to win the nba championship? The Mavs? lol. Lebron cavs went to the finals but they face a 4-0 Spurs. I bet the Heat in 06 wouldn't beat the Spurs in the finals. So basically wade got very lucky that his heat play a Mavs team that never been to the nba finals until 06 and not the Spurs.


----------



## Brandname

23AJ said:


> It's way to early to just hand the MVP trophy to any player, but Wade is playing the best individual basketball in the league right now, and that's not a joke.* By the way LeBrons numbers/stats continue to drop.* No doubt LeBron is the early leading candidate for MVP, however Wade is easily in second, and coming on strong with huge huge numbers. After that you have guy's like Bosh, Nowitzki, Howard, and Paul. This season will be interesting to follow, I believe we will see how good the Cavs really are once they actually play better teams, so far this year LeBron has been terrible in all their losses and all the losses the Cavs have had were against good teams. Also It looks like KG might get his second DPOTYA as the Celtics are starting to click again, and looking great on defense holding teams to low shooting percentage shooting. Should be a great season of NBA basketball.


LOL! That's one way of looking at it.

Except that when you wrote this post, the previous 4 games of that Cavs had all been blowouts. Here is Lebron's minutes during those games:

11/22 Atl (21 pt lead going into the 4th): 37 min
11/25 @NYK (29 pt lead going into 4th): 30 min
11/26 OKC (40 pt lead going into 4th): 17 min
11/28 GSW (26 pt lead going into 4th): 31 min

Average: 28.75 minutes per game


Of COURSE his 'per game' numbers were 'continuing to drop'. You fail to mention, however, that his per minute production during that stretch was as high as ever, with remarkable efficiency:

FG: 53.4%
3pt: 43.8%
FT: 81.8%

And he continues to lead the league in PER.

Either you weren't aware of his numbers dropping because of all of the blowouts, or you are trying to be deceptive to make him look bad. I'm hoping it was the former.


----------



## Brandname

The '93 Heat said:


> They're playing virtually identical minutes. Wade has also sat in numerous blowouts as well. On any given night either of them will play 40 minutes that's why we take an average and the average says they play the same number of minutes.


Fine, but Lebron's per minute production is still slightly higher than Wade's. And he's playing some of the best wing defense in the league right now.


----------



## Dee-Zy

rayz789 said:


> Dude, Are you freaking kidding me? You already lost your argument when you say Wade would have still win a ring if Big Z was a starting Center replacing Shaq lolololol. And for you to say that Walker beside Wade is the reason for the Heat winning a ring is freaking retarded. Anybody with a damn brain knows easily Shaq was the reason the Heat won a ring. Sure his ppg were a bit low but he still brings the presence that he gets triple team, double team and that free up Wade to do his thing. Also who did the Heat beat in the finals to win the nba championship? The Mavs? lol. Lebron cavs went to the finals but they face a 4-0 Spurs. I bet the Heat in 06 wouldn't beat the Spurs in the finals. So basically wade got very lucky that his heat play a Mavs team that never been to the nba finals until 06 and not the Spurs.



Yeah, a Mavs team that beat the Spurs. Put the argument to rest.

Oh and Shaq trippled teamed??? lol...Shaq was on single coverage most of the time in the finals. Avery told his bigs to foul Shaq everytime he was in his sweet spot. If anything, Big Z might of helped Wade better because he was a better FT shooter than Shaq. Shaq did help the Heat, just as much as Payton, Posey, Haslem and Shimmy but truth is, in the finals, he was a role player.

You can still find those games on torrent. Go download them and refresh your memory.

Of course Heat would try and feed Shaq in the post but that is no different from any teams trying to feed any decent big man on their team. Shaq wasn't the second most valuable player on that team whether you look at the stats or at the game's play. Toine was.


----------



## rayz789

Dee-Zy said:


> Yeah, a Mavs team that beat the Spurs. Put the argument to rest.
> 
> Oh and Shaq trippled teamed??? lol...Shaq was on single coverage most of the time in the finals. Avery told his bigs to foul Shaq everytime he was in his sweet spot. If anything, Big Z might of helped Wade better because he was a better FT shooter than Shaq. Shaq did help the Heat, just as much as Payton, Posey, Haslem and Shimmy but truth is, in the finals, he was a role player.
> 
> You can still find those games on torrent. Go download them and refresh your memory.
> 
> Of course Heat would try and feed Shaq in the post but that is no different from any teams trying to feed any decent big man on their team. Shaq wasn't the second most valuable player on that team whether you look at the stats or at the game's play. Toine was.



Are you kidding me? So the mavs barely beat the spurs in game 7 in the western semi finals means the mavs are a improving team in the finals? Shut up dez cause you don't know what the hell you talking about. In the finals if you lost your memory, the spurs are undefeated while the mavs in the finals was the first ever in 06. 


Like i said the heat are a lucky team that they didn't face the undefeated nba finals spurs.


----------



## Flash is the Future

rayz789 said:


> Are you kidding me? So the mavs barely beat the spurs in game 7 in the western semi finals means the mavs are a improving team in the finals? Shut up dez cause you don't know what the hell you talking about. In the finals if you lost your memory, the spurs are undefeated while the mavs in the finals was the first ever in 06.
> 
> 
> Like i said the heat are a lucky team that they didn't face the undefeated nba finals spurs.


I'm sure we are, as we won. But at the time, every Heat fan would've preferred the Spurs to the Mavs because we had gotten blown out of the building in the regular season by the Mavs. We matched up much better with the slower paced Spurs that year.


----------



## Adam

Brandname said:


> Fine, but Lebron's per minute production is still slightly higher than Wade's. And he's playing some of the best wing defense in the league right now.


Per minute, or as I like to call it "give them credit for minutes that didn't happen." If per minute stats meant anything then Vladimir Stepania (who?) would have led the league in rebounding.

Wade's defense has been pretty solid this year. If LeBron has some of the best wing defense then Wade has some of the best paint defense. He strips or rejects everything down low.


----------



## Dee-Zy

rayz789 said:


> Are you kidding me? So the mavs barely beat the spurs in game 7 in the western semi finals means the mavs are a improving team in the finals? Shut up dez cause you don't know what the hell you talking about. In the finals if you lost your memory, the spurs are undefeated while the mavs in the finals was the first ever in 06.
> 
> 
> Like i said the heat are a lucky team that they didn't face the undefeated nba finals spurs.




Go sit on a stick


----------



## BlackNRed

1st in scoring
2nd in steals
7th in assists
leads all guards in blocks by a full block per game.

without Shaq in a Miami uni, haters are grasping at straws. You knew this day would come.


----------



## ChrisRichards

oh man what a great game just finished vs Golden State in OT.


----------



## 77AJ

ChrisRichards said:


> oh man what a great game just finished vs Golden State in OT.


Wade was sick tonight. Wade had 3 huge blocks 13 assists 5 boards, and a whopping 37 points, in a nice road win for the Heat.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

rayz789 said:


> Are you kidding me? So the mavs barely beat the spurs in game 7 in the western semi finals means the mavs are a improving team in the finals? Shut up dez cause you don't know what the hell you talking about. In the finals if you lost your memory, the spurs are undefeated while the mavs in the finals was the first ever in 06.
> 
> 
> Like i said the heat are a lucky team that they didn't face the undefeated nba finals spurs.


give credit where its due. sure wade got favorable calls, but nots enought to lose a series when you're up 2-0 and has home court advantage.


better team with the better superstar won.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

rayz789 said:


> Like i said *the heat are a lucky team* that they didn't face the undefeated nba finals spurs.


I love this argument.


----------



## rayz789

Flash is the Future said:


> I'm sure we are, as we won. But at the time, every Heat fan would've preferred the Spurs to the Mavs because we had gotten blown out of the building in the regular season by the Mavs. We matched up much better with the slower paced Spurs that year.


Come on man. You should know easily that regular season don't mean anything of what happens in the finals. I give you an example. In 06-07 season the Cavs were 2-0 vs the Spurs <<<<<<So is that mean the Cavs would have no problem of beating the Spurs in 07 finals? Nope cause in the playoffs and in the nba finals are way different cause the team play different for the big one then the one in the regular season.


----------



## Brandname

The '93 Heat said:


> They're playing virtually identical minutes. Wade has also sat in numerous blowouts as well. On any given night either of them will play 40 minutes that's why we take an average and the average says they play the same number of minutes.





Brandname said:


> Fine, but Lebron's per minute production is still slightly higher than Wade's. And he's playing some of the best wing defense in the league right now.





The '93 Heat said:


> Per minute, or as I like to call it "give them credit for minutes that didn't happen." If per minute stats meant anything then Vladimir Stepania (who?) would have led the league in rebounding.
> 
> Wade's defense has been pretty solid this year. If LeBron has some of the best wing defense then Wade has some of the best paint defense. He strips or rejects everything down low.




You said they're playing nearly identical minutes to refute someone who said Lebron's numbers are lower because he's playing fewer minutes. I came back to inform you that Lebron's per minute production is still higher than Wade's, and you respond with _this_?

That response just doesn't make any sense based on your assertion that they are playing the same number of minutes.


----------



## Plastic Man

^^Not only that but it's not like you were throwing out per 48 minutes numbers of players who play less than 20 minuts (in which case his argument would actually make sense). =)

Per 36 minutes:
Bron - 28.1 ppg / 7.2 rpg / 6.4 apg / 2 spg / 0.9 bpg / 2.8 topg (TS% .580; eFG% .518)
Wade - 27.9 ppg / 4.7 rpg / 7.4 apg / 2.3 spg / 1.7 bpg / 3.9 topg (TS% .575; eFG% .513)


----------



## Dee-Zy

rayz789 said:


> Come on man. You should know easily that regular season don't mean anything of what happens in the finals. I give you an example. In 06-07 season the Cavs were 2-0 vs the Spurs <<<<<<So is that mean the Cavs would have no problem of beating the Spurs in 07 finals? Nope cause in the playoffs and in the nba finals are way different cause the team play different for the big one then the one in the regular season.


My god your view is so narrow. Of course regular season is not the same thing as playoffs, he was talking about match ups. Not outcome. Saying that Heat matches up better against spurs than mavs.

Going into the finals with any teams that you are 0-2 against that year is always nerve wrecking. It is not fullproof. It is not saying that if you didn't beat a team in the regular season that you won't beat them in the playoffs.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Wade leads HEAT past Jazz tonight. Another huge game out of Wade.

Will this be MVP year for Wade?

i also want to give some love to steal of the draft, MARIO CHALMERS!! ripped Deron Williams a few times and took it to the hole on him.


----------



## Diable

What's so terrific about it?Wouldn't that be a horribly subpar game for Chris Paul?


----------



## UrFavTeamSux

As good as Wade is playing, I think Miami's record is not going to let him win the MVP


----------



## Flash is the Future

Diable said:


> What's so terrific about it?Wouldn't that be a horribly subpar game for Chris Paul?


It wasn't one of Wade's best games but...23 points, 5 assists, 5 rebounds, 4 steals, 2 blocks, 0 Turnovers on 47% shooting in only 31:35? If that's a horribly subpar game for Chris Paul, his average games would be insane.


----------



## futuristxen

Flash is the Future said:


> It wasn't one of Wade's best games but...23 points, 5 assists, 5 rebounds, 4 steals, 2 blocks, 0 Turnovers on 47% shooting in only 31:35? If that's a horribly subpar game for Chris Paul, his average games would be insane.


Lebron had almost those exact same numbers tonight, and he played like four less minutes. I think he was 21,5,6,5,1. Dunno on what percentage.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Wade "posterized" Emeka Okafor 

39 points so far for Wade vs the Bobcats.... he is going wild


----------



## sMaK

That dunk on Okafor was disgusting.


----------



## Diable

Wade also went to the line on at least four completely phantom fouls...One of them a charge that was called a block five seconds after he missed the shot.


----------



## ChrisRichards

nope. bull

I saw the replays. the HEAT announcers on sun sports clearly admitted that it seemed suspicious and LATE calls, but THEY WERE ACCURATE. i saw the replays. the defedner was MOVING so it's a block.

i saw it with my own eyes on the replay on sun sports


----------



## BlackNRed

Diable said:


> Wade also went to the line on at least four completely phantom fouls...One of them a charge that was called a block five seconds after he missed the shot.


Sounds like 'best player in the NBA' treatment dunnit?

Omgoodness if it wasn't for Shaq and Phantom fouls Wade would be relgated to water boy duties.


----------



## Basel

I want to see Wade's dunk on Okafor...once a video is available, someone post it!


----------



## ChrisRichards

Wade final - 41 pts, 8 rebs, 3 assists, 12/22 fg's


Chalmers / Wade is the BEST duo in the NBA in steals. not just best backcourt, best ANY duo in the nba in steals


----------



## myst

Diable said:


> Wade also went to the line on at least four completely phantom fouls...One of them a charge that was called a block five seconds after he missed the shot.


Looked like it could have been a charge to me, but five seconds? Come on. The ref was waiting to see if the shot went in. If it went in it would have been a no call, but since he missed it they called the foul. Refs do that all the time, you should know that. Notice how he blew the whistle right after the shot missed??


----------



## 77AJ

Wade with another huge night with 41 points and 8 rebounds, plus the Heat win. And yeah Okafor got posterized by D Wade. Nasty dunk!

One nice thing about Wade he also shoots over 50 percent from the field when he gets 40 points or more, and tonight was 50 percent from 3 ball land. His 3 point shot is starting to catch up with the rest of his game.


----------



## Basel

Off-topic, but Durant also had 41 points tonight on great shooting, though his team lost (shocking!). Impressive.


----------



## Diable

Everyone who saw that play knows good and damned well that there was no foul on dudley and that the refs essentially gave that game to the Heat right there.I am sick of heat fans making excuses for that crap.It was in fact a charge on Wade and that's all there is to it.You can make all the lame *** excuses in the world,but we all know the truth.


----------



## SKiP

^ 
Wade is the best player alive.


----------



## Vivaldi

Diable: No it's not the truth because you could clearly see Dudley moving on the replay. It was an awkward call because it was so late , but it was the right call.


----------



## f22egl

I haven't seen the play but if the refs see a foul in the final seconds of a game, they should call it. I'm sick of players on defense who excessively foul at the end of games and don't get called for it.


----------



## Basel

SKiP said:


> ^
> Wade is the best player alive.


Did Kobe and LeBron die?


----------



## f22egl

If the playoffs started today, Wade and LeBron would face off.


----------



## BlackNRed

Basel57 said:


> Did Kobe and LeBron die?


Ok. Wade and Lebron are the best players alive. Better?


----------



## Wade2Bosh

Diable said:


> Everyone who saw that play knows good and damned well that there was no foul on dudley and that the refs essentially gave that game to the Heat right there.I am sick of heat fans making excuses for that crap.It was in fact a charge on Wade and that's all there is to it.You can make all the lame *** excuses in the world,but we all know the truth.


Fine. Believe if you want that it was a bad call. But then so was the no call on the play right before, where Diawara clearly drew a charge that went uncalled, which led to a 3 pointer for Felton.


----------



## Basel

Heated said:


> Ok. Wade and Lebron are the best players alive. Better?


So Kobe _did_ die? Why hasn't this been reported yet? Do you know something nobody else does?

And I'd love to see a Cavs/Heat first round match-up, though I think the Cavs would destroy them. But who doesn't want to see Wade vs. LeBron in the Playoffs?


----------



## reHEATed

f22egl said:


> If the playoffs started today, Wade and LeBron would face off.


wade and lebron always put on a show when they face off

it would be a lot of fun over a series.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Diable said:


> Everyone who saw that play knows good and damned well that there was no foul on dudley and that the refs essentially gave that game to the Heat right there.I am sick of heat fans making excuses for that crap.It was in fact a charge on Wade and that's all there is to it.You can make all the lame *** excuses in the world,but we all know the truth.


While I probably wouldn't have called it, Dudley WAS moving his feet from what I saw of the replay (though I could be wrong, correct me if you find a replay), so the call wasn't that absurd. Lets be honest, if it wasnt a late whistle, it would have been just another call - one that happens multiple times every day.

It was a late whistle which made it look much worse, and that late whistle happened in a sequence of 3 late whistles, 1 for Charlotte, then too for Miami (or something like that).

And like W2M said, if you're gona call that one, you're also gona call the one on the immediately previous play where a Charlotte player jumped straight into a positioned Diawara leading to a Felton 3..

But lol at _"the refs essentially gave the game to the Heat right there"_ when the call was made with 1:30 remaining in a 4 pt game.

Perhaps the Cats lost cause of their countless TO's and mistakes that gave Miami momentum all through the 4th? Okafor stumbling on a rebound and throwing it away? Or DJ Augustin's missed finger roll? Or the team's mental blank to foul late in the game when they didn't need to? Or maybe you're right, it was definately that one call on Jared Dudley..


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Basel57 said:


> And I'd love to see a Cavs/Heat first round match-up, though I think the Cavs would destroy them. But who doesn't want to see Wade vs. LeBron in the Playoffs?


I would LOVE a Heat/Cavs series. It wouldn't be the best for us obviously, but in terms of an exciting and hopefully competitive series, that'd be great.


----------



## myst

Diable said:


> Everyone who saw that play knows good and damned well that there was no foul on dudley and that the refs essentially gave that game to the Heat right there.I am sick of heat fans making excuses for that crap.It was in fact a charge on Wade and that's all there is to it.You can make all the lame *** excuses in the world,but we all know the truth.


Somebody call the whambulance



f22egl said:


> I haven't seen the play but if the refs see a foul in the final seconds of a game, they should call it. I'm sick of players on defense who excessively foul at the end of games and don't get called for it.


I believe the foul was with like 1-2 minutes left. Definitely not the deciding factor.


----------



## KillWill

come on guys. is there one guy out there who actually believes that any franchise would choose d-wade over lebron right now? seriously. i'm all for guys stickin' w/ their guy on their squad. nothing wrong w/ that. it's what sports fanaticism is all about. they both have their limitations, and they both still have massive upside. but in all seriousness, guys in this thread are making the biggest homer go "doh".


----------



## Vivaldi

Wade is playing just as good as lebron is now


----------



## Pioneer10

Vivaldi said:


> Wade is playing just as good as lebron is now


Lebron and Wade's per possesion numbers are pretty close. Wade, Lebron, and Paul PER numbers are pretty much at another level compared to the rest of the league.

How to differentiate the 3 from there is tough. One could argue that PER typically undervalues PG's so Paul may have the edge but he's also the weakest defender of the the three.IMO

Lebron on defense has been sensational this year. Haven't watched Wade on D as closely as I've watched Lebron so can't fairly comment but Wade has a low OPP PER just like Lebron. So I think there about equal right now. It will be unbelievable if they keep this kind of production up: we're talking prime Jordan type levels of efficiency. One thing that could hurt Wade's numbers going forward is that Sagarin has rated Miami very low in terms of strenght of schedule: his numbers at least from a per possesion standpoint may go down with tougher competition


----------



## myst

KillWill said:


> come on guys. is there one guy out there who actually believes that any franchise would choose d-wade over lebron right now? seriously. i'm all for guys stickin' w/ their guy on their squad. nothing wrong w/ that. it's what sports fanaticism is all about. they both have their limitations, and they both still have massive upside. but in all seriousness, guys in this thread are making the biggest homer go "doh".


I wouldn't trade Wade for anybody. I have watched over 95% of his games, including preseason, olympics, all-star games and so on. He is a part of Miami and loving your team is as important as winning.


----------



## KillWill

myst said:


> I wouldn't trade Wade for anybody. I have watched over 95% of his games, including preseason, olympics, all-star games and so on. He is a part of Miami and loving your team is as important as winning.



i love your love for your squad. that's what fanhood is all about. it reminds me of the days me and my boys would argue about switching magic w/ bird, or jordan w/ magic. as much as we admired the other guys, there was no way we'd give up on our guy. 

not that there are a lot of comparisons, but this debate is slightly reminiscent of the drexler v. mj debates or the 'nique v. jordan arguments. good stuff. keeps ratings and jersey sales up.

when it comes to lebron and wade, only the next ten or so years will tell. my money is on lebron, and this is coming from the guy who proclaimed on these boards that the real battle would have been between james and melo.

and myst, what happened to your little girlie friend? find a new one you're not sharing?


----------



## KillWill

Dornado said:


> I don't think anyone is saying that... I think most Bulls fans just hope Rose gets to Wade's level.


or that there's some way chicago can pull off some magic and put them together in the same back court in two years.


----------



## Vivaldi

Pioneer10 said:


> Lebron and Wade's per possesion numbers are pretty close. Wade, Lebron, and Paul PER numbers are pretty much at another level compared to the rest of the league.
> 
> How to differentiate the 3 from there is tough. One could argue that PER typically undervalues PG's so Paul may have the edge but he's also the weakest defender of the the three.IMO
> 
> Lebron on defense has been sensational this year. Haven't watched Wade on D as closely as I've watched Lebron so can't fairly comment but Wade has a low OPP PER just like Lebron. So I think there about equal right now. It will be unbelievable if they keep this kind of production up: we're talking prime Jordan type levels of efficiency. One thing that could hurt Wade's numbers going forward is that Sagarin has rated Miami very low in terms of strenght of schedule: his numbers at least from a per possesion standpoint may go down with tougher competition


Wade's D has been great this year. Averaging career high on both blocks and steals.


----------



## KillWill

Vivaldi said:


> Wade's D has been great this year. Averaging career high on both blocks and steals.



i think most fans have noticed the new found dedication to d by both james and wade this season. i wonder who that rubbed off from. reminds me of the old days when the glove would spend hours w/ a certain future superstar.


----------



## f22egl

KillWill said:


> i think most fans have noticed the new found dedication to d by both james and wade this season. i wonder who that rubbed off from. reminds me of the old days when the glove would spend hours w/ a certain future superstar.


They probably worked on their defense in the Olympics.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Wade and Chalmbers are both top 5 in the NBA in steals so far this season.


----------



## BlackNRed

KillWill said:


> come on guys. is there one guy out there who actually believes that any franchise would choose d-wade over lebron right now? seriously. i'm all for guys stickin' w/ their guy on their squad. nothing wrong w/ that. it's what sports fanaticism is all about. they both have their limitations, and they both still have massive upside. but in all seriousness, guys in this thread are making the biggest homer go "doh".


grasping at straws much? I'm sure a lot of teams would take Wade. I'm sure most Francise FOs aren't caught up in the hype and realize what a stud Wade is in the playoffs, as opposed to Lebron. 

I for sure wouldn't trade Wade for Lebron. Nothing to do with homerism, I truthfully he's the better player.


----------



## Ben




----------



## KillWill

Heated said:


> grasping at straws much? I'm sure a lot of teams would take Wade. I'm sure most Francise FOs aren't caught up in the hype and realize what a stud Wade is in the playoffs, as opposed to Lebron.
> 
> I for sure wouldn't trade Wade for Lebron. Nothing to do with homerism, I truthfully he's the better player.



fans aside, i'd bet the straws i'm grasping for, and all the white lines to go w/ them that EVERY general manager in the league would take lebron over wade. even our beloved pat riley. wade is a stud, and a franchise player, but lebron is literally a once in a generation physical specimen. we still haven't seen this guys ceiling. again, i love your support for the guy. i'd lose all respect for your fan-hood in fact if you felt otherwise. but what we see of wade now, is pretty much what we will see from wade through out the prime years of his career.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

Heated said:


> grasping at straws much? I'm sure a lot of teams would take Wade. I'm sure most Francise FOs aren't caught up in the hype and realize what a stud Wade is in the playoffs, as opposed to Lebron.
> 
> *I for sure wouldn't trade Wade for Lebron. Nothing to do with homerism, I truthfully he's the better player*.




i could respect that because i do think wade is a lil bit better on the offensive end, but if you're looking long term then easily lebron gets the nod.


----------



## KillWill

aznzen said:


> i could respect that because i do think wade is a lil bit better on the offensive end, but if you're looking long term then easily lebron gets the nod.



straight skills? yeah wade is more polished than lebron. but if we're going by skills than jelly bean jr. has got them both. wade is a special player, but lebron is near supernatural.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Didn't Wade defeat Kobe and LeBron at All-Star weekend Skills challenge 2 years in a row?

Wade won it 2x in a row


----------



## Ben

As much as I want that to mean something Chris, All-Star Weekend is really useless to judge players by.


----------



## Basel

ChrisRichards said:


> Didn't Wade defeat Kobe and LeBron at All-Star weekend Skills challenge 2 years in a row?
> 
> Wade won it 2x in a row


2006 - defeated LeBron James, Chris Paul, Steve Nash
2007 - defeated Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Chris Paul
2008 - lost to Deron Williams (who also beat Chris Paul & Jason Kidd)

I really hope you're not trying to use this information for who is more skilled, though.


----------



## IbizaXL

ChrisRichards said:


> Didn't Wade defeat Kobe and LeBron at All-Star weekend Skills challenge 2 years in a row?
> 
> Wade won it 2x in a row


i hope you were being sarcastic...:sarcasm:


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

KillWill said:


> straight skills? yeah wade is more polished than lebron. but if we're going by skills than jelly bean jr. has got them both. wade is a special player, but lebron is near supernatural.


agree.


kobe easily is just a better all around player than both, wade comes second real close third is lebron. but lebron as of right now is just going balls deep with his team.



ChrisRichards said:


> Didn't Wade defeat Kobe and LeBron at All-Star weekend Skills challenge 2 years in a row?
> 
> Wade won it 2x in a row



LMAO @ chris LOL
lisa leslie>wade


----------



## KillWill

that's what this argument has come down to? skills challenge results? isn't there some synchronized swimming on t.v. somewhere?


----------



## ChrisRichards

Basel57 said:


> 2006 - defeated LeBron James, Chris Paul, Steve Nash
> 2007 - defeated Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Chris Paul
> 2008 - lost to Deron Williams (who also beat Chris Paul & Jason Kidd)
> 
> I really hope you're not trying to use this information for who is more skilled, though.


To me it's obvious who is more skilled. It's Wade. Kobe second, LeBron third.


----------



## Dre

Y'all are gonna spend so much time of these guys' careers debating ultimately useless lists they're going to be finished by the time you appreciate them.


----------



## Dee-Zy

word ^


----------



## Ras

Dre™ said:


> Y'all are gonna spend so much time of these guys' careers debating ultimately useless lists they're going to be finished by the time you appreciate them.


Yeah very good point.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

Dre™ said:


> Y'all are gonna spend so much time of these guys' careers debating ultimately useless lists they're going to be finished by the time you appreciate them.


Well said..


----------



## ChrisRichards

What an absolutely amazing three point shot to beat the buzzer vs the Lakers by WADE.

The man is unstoppable.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Wade Leads Heat Past Lakers!!!!!


----------



## Drewbs

I don't think I've seen an uglier game this year. Jesus Christ.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

I thought it was a good game overall. Probably coz we won, and it was perhaps the best game I've seen on an actual TV this year (100x better than streaming).

But yea, parts of that game, eg. the start of the 4th Q, were a disaster for both teams.. Remember there was a stretch of about 4 or 5 consecutive TO's.. :laugh:

Atleast 5 out-of-bounds calls too, and they cost us two 3's from the same spot.. :azdaja:


----------



## 77AJ

First game I've seen where Wade out played Kobe. Usually It's about even or Kobe out plays Wade. Not this time, Wade was dominate down the stretch. That 3 at the buzzer was pretty awesome, and the thinker pose afterwards was a nice finishing touch by D Wade.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

except last year, when shaq was still a heat, wade seems to outplay kobe for the past 2 yrs statistically.



anyway, wade was phenomenal tonight. he reminded me of the 05-06 kobe.



that block on lamar in the 4th quarter was just icing on the cake.


----------



## Drewbs

Is it just me or do the Lakers look like they don't care about playing basketball right now? You'd think that with their recent streak of mediocre play that they'd get their heads in the game, but nope.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Wade a MONSTER tonight, once again.

43 points, 5 assists, 4 rebs, 2 steals, 2 blocked shots
13-22 shooting


----------



## 77AJ

ChrisRichards said:


> Wade a MONSTER tonight, once again.
> 
> 43 points, 5 assists, 4 rebs, 2 steals, 2 blocked shots
> 13-22 shooting


Would of been the stat line of the night, but Crawford steals it with his 50 point game. However D Wade has easily been the most consistent dynamic efficient scoring leader in the league so far this year.


----------



## Ben

I think there's only been two games where Dwyane hasn't scored 20+ this year, he's definitely producing a consistent stat-line.


----------



## Ras

ChrisRichards said:


> Wade a MONSTER tonight, once again.
> 
> 43 points, 5 assists, 4 rebs, 2 steals, 2 blocked shots
> 13-22 shooting


Are all these games you're bringing up supposed to be in defense of Wade being the best, or has this turned into a Wade update kind of thread?


----------



## HB

Looks like its an update thread. In Wade's defense, he is probably the 1b to Bron's 1a right now.


----------



## Ras

HB said:


> Looks like its an update thread. In Wade's defense, he is probably the 1b to Bron's 1a right now.


I wouldn't disagree with that.


----------



## Ben

Ras said:


> Are all these games you're bringing up supposed to be in defense of Wade being the best, or has this turned into a Wade update kind of thread?


Must be an update thread now.

I have LeBron just ahead of Wade at the moment, and Wade's my favourite baller.


----------



## Diable

Wade had a great game last night,but he also fell further behind Chris Paul in PER and the MVP race.Paul had a better game...Again.It seems to me that some people don't recognize that CP has had a better season than anyone except Lebron James...And that he's clearly been better than Wade this year along with everyone else except Lebron.


----------



## Pioneer10

> Wade had a great game last night,but he also fell further behind Chris Paul in PER and the MVP race.Paul had a better game...Again.It seems to me that some people don't recognize that CP has had a better season than anyone except Lebron James...And that he's clearly been better than Wade this year along with everyone else except Lebron.


Funny how this thread disappeared when Wade the following streak
9-24 for 21 points against the Hawks
5-16 for 17 against Memphis
5-16 for 15 against the Bucks
Every player goes thru a slump but when you're going up against Lebron and Paul in terms of numbers stretches like these really hurt your case (again not a knock on Wade but simply illustraing how well the other two are playing)


----------



## Diable

What Wade is doing is having one of the highest usage rates in history.The 4th highest behind Kobe in 05-06,the pre-GOAT jordan in 86-87 and Iverson in 01-02.Not many guys are capable of using the ball that much,but when you do you can't compare those numbers to other guys numbers like they're all the same.

Wade is scoring a ton because he's shooting a ton...it works that way.Relatively speaking he's not having a better season than the other top players in league.He's doing everything a lot,both good and bad.You can claim that this is because his team needs him to do that,but you can't claim his team needs him more the Hornets need Chris Paul.It's just that Paul is productive in ways that help his team more.He's averaging 20 pts per game on only 13 shots...even though everyone knows he could shoot whenever he wanted to and score a great deal more if that's what he wanted to do.


----------



## Flash is the Future

Diable said:


> Wade had a great game last night,but he also fell further behind Chris Paul in PER and the MVP race.Paul had a better game...Again.It seems to me that some people don't recognize that CP has had a better season than anyone except Lebron James...And that he's clearly been better than Wade this year along with everyone else except Lebron.


Up until the past 4 games (and that 3 game slump of Wade's), Wade had been leading Chris Paul in PER all year long. So if you're going to bring PER into this, I don't see how you can claim that Chris Paul has been clearly better than Wade this year. Whether Wade is using more possessions or not doesn't matter that much with regard to "who is having a better season." Sure, Chris Paul could shoot a lot more if he wanted to - so could Kobe - but he isn't, and in the context of "who is having a better season," usage rate becomes similar to MPG in that more minutes per game are a statistical boost for a player, not a detraction.


----------



## myst

Diable said:


> What Wade is doing is having one of the highest usage rates in history.The 4th highest behind Kobe in 05-06,the pre-GOAT jordan in 86-87 and Iverson in 01-02.Not many guys are capable of using the ball that much,but when you do you can't compare those numbers to other guys numbers like they're all the same.
> 
> Wade is scoring a ton because he's shooting a ton...it works that way.Relatively speaking he's not having a better season than the other top players in league.He's doing everything a lot,both good and bad.You can claim that this is because his team needs him to do that,but you can't claim his team needs him more the Hornets need Chris Paul.It's just that Paul is productive in ways that help his team more.He's averaging 20 pts per game on only 13 shots...even though everyone knows he could shoot whenever he wanted to and score a great deal more if that's what he wanted to do.


Actually, an example of his efficiency is he is taking the same number of shots per game as Kobe, but scoring +3ppg and .25 percentage points better.


----------



## Diable

Kobe isn't playing as well as Brandon Roy this year...He's not even performing at a superstar level so far this season...It hurts your argument when you use him as a comparison.


----------



## Flash is the Future

Diable said:


> Kobe isn't playing as well as Brandon Roy this year...He's not even performing at a superstar level so far this season...It hurts your argument when you use him as a comparison.


I think the point of using the Kobe comparison would be in reference to your statement that "It's just that Paul is productive in ways that help his team more.He's averaging 20 pts per game on only 13 shots...even though everyone knows he could shoot whenever he wanted to and score a great deal more if that's what he wanted to do."

Sure, Kobe could shoot more and score more if he wanted to, but he's "productive in ways that help his team more." With Kobe being more of a streak shooter, his percentage might actually go up if he were to shoot more (at least his 3FG%). Roy has a slightly higher PER than Kobe this year, but I don't think that you could try to argue that he's been a better player than Kobe this year, or that he's performing at a superstar level while Kobe is not. Kobe is right there in the Lebron/Kobe/Wade discussions on who is a better wing player. Lebron has clearly surpassed him, but Kobe is still there, while Brandon Roy is not quite there yet.


----------



## futuristxen

I think by the end of the season, Lebron will have taken back the scoring title from Wade.


----------



## Vivaldi

Diable said:


> What Wade is doing is having one of the highest usage rates in history.The 4th highest behind Kobe in 05-06,the pre-GOAT jordan in 86-87 and Iverson in 01-02.Not many guys are capable of using the ball that much,but when you do you can't compare those numbers to other guys numbers like they're all the same.
> 
> Wade is scoring a ton because he's shooting a ton...it works that way.Relatively speaking he's not having a better season than the other top players in league.He's doing everything a lot,both good and bad.You can claim that this is because his team needs him to do that,but you can't claim his team needs him more the Hornets need Chris Paul.It's just that Paul is productive in ways that help his team more.He's averaging 20 pts per game on only 13 shots...even though everyone knows he could shoot whenever he wanted to and score a great deal more if that's what he wanted to do.


Not good when the crux of your argument boils down to PER. Wade has been leading paul in that department all season long.



futuristxen said:


> I think by the end of the season, Lebron will have taken back the scoring title from Wade.



Unless he gets hurt I doubt this. For the heat to win, Wade pretty much has to score 30, lately not even that is cutting it much.


----------



## Pioneer10

It should be noted right now statiscally: Lebron, Wade, and Paul are really having a season for the ages.
Only Shaq, Robinson, Jordan, Wilt, and that one crazy good season Tmac put up. Really remarkable and good for the NBA if three freakin players are able to put up those numbers in the same year. All three offensively are playing at an incredible right now.


----------



## ChrisRichards

thanks to Stern's rule changes. I'm no homer. I know the truth. I love Wade and LeBron, but facts are facts. The NBA ruined it's integrity by changing rules to allow high scorers. It started in 2005-2006 and it's only getting worse


----------



## myst

ChrisRichards said:


> thanks to Stern's rule changes. I'm no homer. I know the truth. I love Wade and LeBron, but facts are facts. The NBA ruined it's integrity by changing rules to allow high scorers. It started in 2005-2006 and it's only getting worse


That only changes drives to the lane. The assist, rebound, blocks, steals and FG% has nothing to do with that.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Ras said:


> Are all these games you're bringing up supposed to be in defense of Wade being the best, or has this turned into a Wade update kind of thread?


Looks like an update thread.




Diable said:


> He's doing everything a lot,both good and bad.You can claim that this is because his team needs him to do that,but you can't claim his team needs him more the Hornets need Chris Paul.


Hornets without CP3 > Heat without D Wade.

I don't know, just saying.


----------



## 77AJ

Wade looked nice tonight with 32 points 8 rebounds 8 assists 3 steals 3 blocks FG percentage over 50 percent. Heat won, and the Heat now have a 15 - 12 record.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

23AJ said:


> Wade looked nice tonight with 32 points 8 rebounds 8 assists 3 steals 3 blocks FG percentage over 50 percent. Heat won, and the Heat now have a 15 - 12 record.


Big showdown games coming up between Mia & Cle! Back to back games, actually. 

Should be interesting, top 2 scorers in the NBA.


----------



## jman23

i'm leaning more towards LeBron,i mean he took a cavaliers team to the finals without talent around him just imagine what he can do with talent around him?


----------



## Smithian

Cavs will win the game... Heat have to get Beasley the ball. Wade and Daequan Cook can't win this by going 1.5-on-5.


----------



## Ben

It can't be just Wade, Cook and Bease though, we'll have to get everyone contributing, and I still think we'll lose. I just wanna see Wade vs. LeBron.


----------



## ChrisRichards

LeBron's Cavaliers have a great win/loss record.

For this reason, I believe this is LeBron's first MVP year. 

Oh well. Wade will get one eventually.


----------



## Ras

ChrisRichards said:


> LeBron's Cavaliers have a great win/loss record.
> 
> For this reason, I believe this is LeBron's first MVP year.
> 
> Oh well. Wade will get one eventually.


Are you implying that if it wasn't for wins, Wade should win it?


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

ChrisRichards said:


> LeBron's Cavaliers have a great win/loss record.
> 
> For this reason, I believe this is LeBron's first MVP year.
> 
> Oh well. Wade will get one eventually.


Regualr season MVP means nothing!

Wades Finals MVP is what counts.

Get back to me when Bron even comes close to sniffing one.


----------



## hendrix2430

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Regualr season MVP means nothing!
> 
> Wades Finals MVP is what counts.
> 
> Get back to me when Bron even comes close to sniffing one.


LOL, I love Wade but Wade homers are the most annoying fans ever. I guess Lebron making the finals with a horrid supporting cast (roughly same as Wade this year, talent wise) isn't good enough to buy the man some respect. If Wade makes the finals this year, I'd be willing to give Heatlunatic some credit for making the above statement.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

hendrix2430 said:


> LOL, I love Wade but Wade homers are the most annoying fans ever. I guess Lebron making the finals with a horrid supporting cast (roughly same as Wade this year, talent wise) isn't good enough to buy the man some respect. If Wade makes the finals this year, I'd be willing to give Heatlunatic some credit for making the above statement.


Like when Wade carried an over the hill Shaq and a list of washed up names from the 90's to a championship?

Shaq - fat and over the hill.
Payton - slow and bit*hing nonstop.
Zo - over the hill and playing with 1 kidney.
Walker - fata$$ chucker who played 1 on 5.
J-Will - both knees were totally shot.

Haslem, Posey and Zo (with 1 kidney) were Wades real supporting cast.

Try again.


----------



## IbizaXL

hendrix2430 said:


> I guess Lebron making the finals with a horrid supporting cast *(roughly same as Wade this year, talent wise)* isn't good enough to buy the man some respect. If Wade makes the finals this year, I'd be willing to give Heatlunatic some credit for making the above statement.


Most ppl dont know just how bad Miami is this year. its ok though, i forgive you.


----------



## Dornado

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Like when Wade carried an over the hill Shaq and a list of washed up names from the 90's to a championship?
> 
> Shaq - fat and over the hill.
> Payton - slow and bit*hing nonstop.
> Zo - over the hill and playing with 1 kidney.
> Walker - fata$$ chucker who played 1 on 5.
> J-Will - both knees were totally shot.
> 
> Haslem, Posey and Zo (with 1 kidney) were Wades real supporting cast.
> 
> Try again.


Shaq averaged 20 and 9 that year with over a block and a half a game.... also he lead the league in FG%. Anyone who watched that team play knows that Zo (and his 2.7 bpg) and Shaq provided interior defense that was essential to that team succeeding in the playoffs...


----------



## Vivaldi

Ras said:


> Are you implying that if it wasn't for wins, Wade should win it?


Yes


----------



## Dee-Zy

hendrix2430 said:


> I guess Lebron making the finals with a horrid supporting cast (roughly same as Wade this year, talent wise) isn't good enough to buy the man some respect..


You are either ignorant or do not understand basketball



HEATLUNATIC said:


> Like when Wade carried an over the hill Shaq and a list of washed up names from the 90's to a championship?
> 
> Shaq - fat and over the hill.
> Payton - slow and bit*hing nonstop.
> Zo - over the hill and playing with 1 kidney.
> Walker - fata$$ chucker who played 1 on 5.
> J-Will - both knees were totally shot.
> 
> Haslem, Posey and Zo (with 1 kidney) were Wades real supporting cast.
> 
> Try again.



Now you are just making Heat fans look bad. Shut Up. The Heat won as a team. They were 15 strong and although Payton, Zo and White Chocolate were shells of their former selves, they played big when needed. Walker was playing incredible ball during the playoffs and as much as Shaq was over the hill, he did have a great impact.

It has nothing to do with Wade vs Bron and like Dre said. Let's just enjoy their game. We are all looking forward to the shodown.


----------



## R-Star

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Regualr season MVP means nothing!
> 
> Wades Finals MVP is what counts.
> 
> Get back to me when Bron even comes close to sniffing one.


****cough****Wade played with Shaq****cough****


----------



## R-Star

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Like when Wade carried an over the hill Shaq and a list of washed up names from the 90's to a championship?
> 
> Shaq - fat and over the hill.
> Payton - slow and bit*hing nonstop.
> Zo - over the hill and playing with 1 kidney.
> Walker - fata$$ chucker who played 1 on 5.
> J-Will - both knees were totally shot.
> 
> Haslem, Posey and Zo (with 1 kidney) were Wades real supporting cast.
> 
> Try again.



Shaq was still one of the best big men in the league at that time.
As far as Zo and J-Will, I can go back to that season and show posts of you talking them both up, so no, its not "Try again", its go **** yourself Wade homer. 
Your "Wade is the greatest" posting is beyond annoying.


----------



## Ras

Vivaldi said:


> Yes


What has he done to put him over LeBron?


----------



## myst

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Like when Wade carried an over the hill Shaq and a list of washed up names from the 90's to a championship?
> 
> Shaq - fat and over the hill.
> Payton - slow and bit*hing nonstop.
> Zo - over the hill and playing with 1 kidney.
> Walker - fata$$ chucker who played 1 on 5.
> J-Will - both knees were totally shot.
> 
> Haslem, Posey and Zo (with 1 kidney) were Wades real supporting cast.
> 
> Try again.


Shaq wasn't great, but he took all of the attention of the d
Payton was a great leader and made two game winning shots
Zo- dominated the middle when he played
Walker- sucked during the season, but played big in the playoffs
J-Will- did you forget his 10-10 shooting against the Pistons?


----------



## sknydave

There's no doubt Wade carried the team, but several guys played important roles at different times


----------



## -33-

hendrix2430 said:


> LOL, I love Wade but Wade homers are the most annoying fans ever. I guess Lebron making the finals with a horrid supporting cast (roughly same as Wade this year, talent wise) isn't good enough to buy the man some respect. If Wade makes the finals this year, I'd be willing to give Heatlunatic some credit for making the above statement.


My problem with many LeBron supporters is this:

When he wins, it's all about how great LeBron is and carried his team.
When he loses, it's all because the supporting cast is terrible.

The team that LeBron took to the Finals was a solid team. They were the best team in the East that year, bottomline. I would have to say that the Heat defeated a much better Pistons team the season before, and that the '06 Heat would run the '07 Cavs into the ground. The '07 Cavs and 08-09 Heat aren't even comparable.



HEATLUNATIC said:


> Like when Wade carried an over the hill Shaq and a list of washed up names from the 90's to a championship?
> 
> Shaq - fat and over the hill.
> Payton - slow and bit*hing nonstop.
> Zo - over the hill and playing with 1 kidney.
> Walker - fata$$ chucker who played 1 on 5.
> J-Will - both knees were totally shot.
> 
> Haslem, Posey and Zo (with 1 kidney) were Wades real supporting cast.
> 
> Try again.


Let's be real here. Wade was unreal in that playoffs, but how many times did our supporting cast turn in huge plays to help win? That team won the title because it was such a strong unit, from top to bottom, everybody came in and played their role when needed. 

It's absolutely pathetic to me as a Heat fan, to see another Heat fan (especially one who's been around here as long as you have) just ripping apart guys who were KEY pieces to our title team.



Dornado said:


> Shaq averaged 20 and 9 that year with over a block and a half a game.... also he lead the league in FG%. Anyone who watched that team play knows that Zo (and his 2.7 bpg) and Shaq provided interior defense that was essential to that team succeeding in the playoffs...


Shaq wasn't the player most people think he was though. Antoine played better than he did in that postseason. Shaq's presence alone causes trouble for the defense, regardless of what he's actually doing. But his interior defense? That was about as evident as his six-pack hidden below his gut. Zo controlled the paint, not Shaq. When we needed to shut down the paint, Zo and Udonis were on the floor, not Shaq.



Dee-Zy said:


> You are either ignorant or do not understand basketball
> 
> Now you are just making Heat fans look bad. Shut Up. The Heat won as a team. They were 15 strong and although Payton, Zo and White Chocolate were shells of their former selves, they played big when needed. Walker was playing incredible ball during the playoffs and as much as Shaq was over the hill, he did have a great impact.
> 
> It has nothing to do with Wade vs Bron and like Dre said. Let's just enjoy their game. We are all looking forward to the shodown.


:clap: I'm DQ for 3, and I approve this message. :clap:



R-Star said:


> ****cough****Wade played with Shaq****cough****


Please, please, please....Tell me you aren't trying to imply that Wade was so good because of Shaq. You know you're reaching for an excuse if that's the line you're using...



R-Star said:


> Shaq was still one of the best big men in the league at that time.
> As far as Zo and J-Will, I can go back to that season and show posts of you talking them both up, so no, its not "Try again", its go **** yourself Wade homer.
> Your "Wade is the greatest" posting is beyond annoying.


You're right, he was one of the better big men at that time. But think about the short list of good big men that season. Like I said above, his presence was almost more of a factor than his performance. Teams still had to adjust when he was on the floor, or he could beat you in a classic-Shaq-way if you played him like just another big man. 



myst said:


> Shaq wasn't great, but he took all of the attention of the d
> Payton was a great leader and made two game winning shots
> Zo- dominated the middle when he played
> Walker- sucked during the season, but played big in the playoffs
> J-Will- did you forget his 10-10 shooting against the Pistons?


Again, like someone else said - it was a complete team effort. Sure, Dwyane was the beast that took us to the title, but everyone else filled the roles necessary to win. 

JWill managed the game well. Payton did a great job of playing his role, and defending the best guard on the floor, keeping Wade out of foul trouble.

Shandon Anderson and Posey were great on D on the perimeter. Posey hit some big shots as well. 

Zo anchored the inside and allowed our guards to play more aggressive on D. Haslem's D on Rasheed and Dirk was critical. 

And obviously Pat Riley's coaching and motivation techniques were a huge advantage in our favor.

I do not understand how anyone who slightly understands basketball can say that the 06 Heat were a one-man show. If you watched only sportscenter highlights, then maybe you're right. But anyone who sat down and watched/saw games would know otherwise.


After the longest response post in BBF history, I now need a drink. :cheers:


----------



## R-Star

DQ for 3 said:


> My problem with many LeBron supporters is this:
> 
> When he wins, it's all about how great LeBron is and carried his team.
> When he loses, it's all because the supporting cast is terrible.
> 
> 
> 
> Please, please, please....Tell me you aren't trying to imply that Wade was so good because of Shaq. You know you're reaching for an excuse if that's the line you're using...
> 
> 
> 
> After the longest response post in BBF history, I now need a drink. :cheers:


I dont disagree. Fans of Lebron praise him when the team wins, and shuns the team when he loses, but the same goes with Wade fans, Kobe fans, ect. Thats just how it goes. Any game the Heat win this year where Wade gets good stats, you're going to hear Wade fans say it was because of him. Any game they lose, no matter Wades stats, you'll hear its because of the garbage team.

As far as Shaq, Im not saying Wade played amazing because of Shaq, far from it. What Wade did he did because hes one of the most amazing basketball players on the planet. But the Heat would not have won that title without Shaq, thats what Im trying to get at.

And I agree, lets go drink. I mean it is Christmas Eve.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

R-Star said:


> As far as Shaq, Im not saying Wade played amazing because of Shaq, far from it. What Wade did he did because hes one of the most amazing basketball players on the planet. But the Heat would not have won that title without Shaq, thats what Im trying to get at.
> .


nah. a cetain heat moderator said the heat would've won that year even without shaq.


shaq was non existent in that title year according to him...:sarcasm:


----------



## 77AJ

aznzen said:


> nah. a cetain heat moderator said the heat would've won that year even without shaq.
> 
> 
> shaq was non existent in that title year according to him...:sarcasm:


No, actually that's a correct statement if you even watched the finals you would know that. The Heat would of won the finals with out Shaq. However they may not have gotten to the finals with out Shaq. So it's a two way street. Shaq played some good ball up to the finals. However in the finals Shaq sucked bottom line. Wade carried the Heat in the finals, and Zo was the defensive center that changed games in the finals not Shaq.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

DQ for 3 said:


> My problem with many LeBron supporters is this:
> 
> When he wins, it's all about how great LeBron is and carried his team.
> When he loses, it's all because the supporting cast is terrible.
> 
> The team that LeBron took to the Finals was a solid team. They were the best team in the East that year, bottomline. I would have to say that the Heat defeated a much better Pistons team the season before, and that the '06 Heat would run the '07 Cavs into the ground. The '07 Cavs and 08-09 Heat aren't even comparable.
> 
> 
> 
> *Let's be real here. Wade was unreal in that playoffs, but how many times did our supporting cast turn in huge plays to help win? That team won the title because it was such a strong unit, from top to bottom, everybody came in and played their role when needed.
> 
> It's absolutely pathetic to me as a Heat fan, to see another Heat fan (especially one who's been around here as long as you have) just ripping apart guys who were KEY pieces to our title team.*
> 
> 
> 
> Shaq wasn't the player most people think he was though. Antoine played better than he did in that postseason. Shaq's presence alone causes trouble for the defense, regardless of what he's actually doing. But his interior defense? That was about as evident as his six-pack hidden below his gut. Zo controlled the paint, not Shaq. When we needed to shut down the paint, Zo and Udonis were on the floor, not Shaq.
> 
> 
> 
> :clap: I'm DQ for 3, and I approve this message. :clap:
> 
> 
> 
> Please, please, please....Tell me you aren't trying to imply that Wade was so good because of Shaq. You know you're reaching for an excuse if that's the line you're using...
> 
> 
> 
> You're right, he was one of the better big men at that time. But think about the short list of good big men that season. Like I said above, his presence was almost more of a factor than his performance. Teams still had to adjust when he was on the floor, or he could beat you in a classic-Shaq-way if you played him like just another big man.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, like someone else said - it was a complete team effort. Sure, Dwyane was the beast that took us to the title, but everyone else filled the roles necessary to win.
> 
> JWill managed the game well. Payton did a great job of playing his role, and defending the best guard on the floor, keeping Wade out of foul trouble.
> 
> Shandon Anderson and Posey were great on D on the perimeter. Posey hit some big shots as well.
> 
> Zo anchored the inside and allowed our guards to play more aggressive on D. Haslem's D on Rasheed and Dirk was critical.
> 
> And obviously Pat Riley's coaching and motivation techniques were a huge advantage in our favor.
> 
> I do not understand how anyone who slightly understands basketball can say that the 06 Heat were a one-man show. If you watched only sportscenter highlights, then maybe you're right. But anyone who sat down and watched/saw games would know otherwise.
> 
> 
> After the longest response post in BBF history, I now need a drink. :cheers:


Shaq was absolute garbage in the Finals and he was out of shape and missed almost half of the regualr season. He was great in the Bulls series but that doesnt give him a free pass for the entire season. All the Heat/Wade haters like to run their mouths about how the 2006 Heat were probably the worst championship team ever, yet when someone praises Wade he was supposedly surrounded by All-Stars that year.

Laughable!

Wade having the best Finals PER in NBA history isnt a joke.

You guys can ***** and moan all you like, but it wont change the fact that Wade went Jordan (after being down 0-2) and Bron/Kobe failed miserably!


----------



## Diable

Shaq was the only reason Miami got past Chicago.Wade doesn't do anything in the finals if he's sitting at home.You can't rewrite history so that the sun revolves around Dwyane Wade.Well apparently you can,but it doesn't flatter you or your boy Dwyane


----------



## Flash is the Future

Shaq had his best series against the Pistons that year. The Bulls series was Shaq's second best series. He struggled mightily in Chicago (he kept committing offensive fouls), but he got his act together for the last 2 games, and on we moved. Against the Bulls DWade had by far his worst series, and he still put up 25/7/4.5/2/1.33 on 44% shooting and 3.67TOs. If there's anything to be learned from this thread, it's that no one was the solitary reason for the Heat winning any of the 4 series we won in 2006.


----------



## -33-

23AJ said:


> No, actually that's a correct statement if you even watched the finals you would know that. The Heat would of won the finals with out Shaq. However they may not have gotten to the finals with out Shaq. So it's a two way street. Shaq played some good ball up to the finals. However in the finals Shaq sucked bottom line. Wade carried the Heat in the finals, and Zo was the defensive center that changed games in the finals not Shaq.


I agree with this to a point. But I'm not sure whether Zo can do what he did if he has to play starters-minutes. If he knows he's limited to 10-18 minutes, he can go all-out and not worry too much about fatigue and/or foul trouble. 

Even in the finals, Shaq didn't light up the scorebook, but his presence on the court caused problems for Dallas. He made his impact in other ways, so it's hard for me to say we could win without him. (Although if that means we would unleash Doleac and Barron, then I agree 100%, we would have swept them)


----------



## NewAgeBaller

hendrix2430 said:


> If Wade makes the finals this year, I'd be willing to give Heatlunatic some credit for making the above statement.





HEATLUNATIC said:


> Like when Wade carried an over the hill Shaq and a list of washed up names from the 90's to a championship?





Dee-Zy said:


> Now you are just making Heat fans look bad. Shut Up.


:laugh:




DQ for 3 said:


> Let's be real here. Wade was unreal in that playoffs, but how many times did our supporting cast turn in huge plays to help win? That team won the title because it was such a strong unit, from top to bottom, everybody came in and played their role when needed.


Yea agreed, I think Posey said recently in an interview that the '06 Heat team was "the most united team" he's ever played with, even off the court they did everything together.


----------



## Luke

To HEATLUNATIC, Lebron and Kobe may have both come up empty in the finals as the #1 option, but the Dallas team that Wade and the Heat faced was not even in the same stratosphere as the Pistons Spurs and Celtics. The thing about those Mavs was that their biggest kryptonite was a 2 guard that could drive it in and get their bigs in foul trouble, it was completly evident in the reg season when Kobe torched them for 62 in 3, and it became even more abuldently clear in the finals where Wade went to work.

So if you say that Bron/Kobe failed miserably atleast aknowlage that the teams that they faced where absolutly incredible defensivly and unlike the 2006 Mavs where VERY well equiped to deal with the kind of Kobe/Bron player.


----------



## myst

VanillaPrice said:


> To HEATLUNATIC, Lebron and Kobe may have both come up empty in the finals as the #1 option, but the Dallas team that Wade and the Heat faced was not even in the same stratosphere as the Pistons Spurs and Celtics. The thing about those Mavs was that their biggest kryptonite was a 2 guard that could drive it in and get their bigs in foul trouble, it was completly evident in the reg season when Kobe torched them for 62 in 3, and it became even more abuldently clear in the finals where Wade went to work.
> 
> So if you say that Bron/Kobe failed miserably atleast aknowlage that the teams that they faced where absolutly incredible defensivly and unlike the 2006 Mavs where VERY well equiped to deal with the kind of Kobe/Bron player.


But the Heat did get through the best Pistons team of the decade to get to the Finals. And if the Spurs were so great and Mavs sucked why were the Mavs in the finals? You can't be worse then a team and win 4 games. Maybe 1, but not 4.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

23AJ said:


> No, actually that's a correct statement if you even watched the finals you would know that. The Heat would of won the finals with out Shaq.


except as diable implied, you dont win an nba title by just playing in the finals...


its a long process. from the 1st round all the way to that last defining moment. you cant skip a series and just choose one to your liking. 


shaq deserves credit in the earlier rounds and thats undeniable, especially against the pistons series.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

DQ for 3 said:


> I agree with this to a point. But I'm not sure whether Zo can do what he did if he has to play starters-minutes. If he knows he's limited to 10-18 minutes, he can go all-out and not worry too much about fatigue and/or foul trouble.
> 
> Even in the finals, Shaq didn't light up the scorebook, but his presence on the court caused problems for Dallas. He made his impact in other ways, so it's hard for me to say we could win without him. (Although if that means we would unleash Doleac and Barron, then I agree 100%, we would have swept them)


yep. zo was very good. but can he sustain that for 30 minutes a game? doubt it. shaq took some of the immense pressure from zo too, despite of what Lenovo Stats tells you.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Wade is awesome, and he can outplay any player in the league on certain nights, but he is not the best. He is top 5.


----------



## ChrisRichards

MYST :

How can you be a Heat/Dolphin fan, live in Miami, but be....a....GATOR FAN?!??

you damn traitor!


----------



## Sir Patchwork

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Regualr season MVP means nothing!
> 
> Wades Finals MVP is what counts.
> 
> Get back to me when Bron even comes close to sniffing one.


I would love to see your top 5 players in the league. 

1. Dwyane Wade
2. Tim Duncan
3. Paul Pierce
4. Chauncey Billups
5. Tony Parker


----------



## ChrisRichards

You know what, that list isn't so bad.

Duncan is Tim freaking Duncan. He's still the man.


Paul Pierce IS one of the best players in the league. *I take Pierce over Kobe in a heartbeat. Pierce plays better defense and can shoot just as well, he drives more to the basket nowadays, and is just as clutch as Kobe. The reason Pierce has been denied top player recognition is because he was on a CRAPPY TEAM.* If Kobe wasn't traded to the Lakers after the draft and stayed with the Hornets and it was PIERCE who teamed with Shaq....Kobe who? That's right.

Too much of player recognition goes into good teams. We ignore those on crappy teams. Is that their fault? *Garnett is just as good OR BETTER than Duncan, yet Duncan got all the praise because he had good management while Garnett rotted away in Minny.*

So you know what? That top 5 that you tried to use as a 'haha your list would suck so your logic is wrong' doesn't fly with me. All those players are great. Look at Chauncey and what he did to Denver and look at how the Pistons have a LOSING RECORD since acquiring AI and losing Billups.


----------



## Futurama_Fanatic

hendrix2430 said:


> LOL, I love Wade but Wade homers are the most annoying fans ever.


all homers are equally annoying.


----------



## Smallballs

Let's play hypothetical. If the Cavaliers were to win the championship this year, how would you rate that personal achievement for LeBron compared to Wade's championship? Which would be more impressive?


----------



## ChrisRichards

WHat are LeBron's stats, his PER, how many clutch moments did he have, how many make-or-break moments did the series have in which LeBron single handedly saved his team in that finals??


----------



## myst

ChrisRichards said:


> MYST :
> 
> How can you be a Heat/Dolphin fan, live in Miami, but be....a....GATOR FAN?!??
> 
> you damn traitor!


I've been watching the Gators since 96, Spurrier/Wuerfful, always despised the Canes for some reason. Seemed to pay off for me in the long run with the Gators winning 3 (4 hopefully) championships in the last few years.


----------



## Smallballs

ChrisRichards said:


> WHat are LeBron's stats, his PER, how many clutch moments did he have, how many make-or-break moments did the series have in which LeBron single handedly saved his team in that finals??


I don't want to make too many assumptions here.

What do you think it would take from LeBron, for these Cavaliers to win the championship? I guess that is the first question.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

ChrisRichards said:


> So you know what? That top 5 that you tried to use as a 'haha your list would suck so your logic is wrong' doesn't fly with me. All those players are great. Look at Chauncey and what he did to Denver and look at how the Pistons have a LOSING RECORD since acquiring AI and losing Billups.


You missed the point, but if you want to take the only award that Wade has over Kobe and LeBron and make it seem like the most important individual award in basketball, then so be it. Just don't run from that logic when I point out how incredibly dumb it is to think that Billups and Parker are better than Chris Paul, or that Paul Pierce is better than Kobe and LeBron (which you do I guess).


----------



## kflo

ChrisRichards said:


> You know what, that list isn't so bad.
> 
> Duncan is Tim freaking Duncan. He's still the man.
> 
> 
> Paul Pierce IS one of the best players in the league. *I take Pierce over Kobe in a heartbeat. Pierce plays better defense and can shoot just as well, he drives more to the basket nowadays, and is just as clutch as Kobe. The reason Pierce has been denied top player recognition is because he was on a CRAPPY TEAM.* If Kobe wasn't traded to the Lakers after the draft and stayed with the Hornets and it was PIERCE who teamed with Shaq....Kobe who? That's right.
> 
> Too much of player recognition goes into good teams. We ignore those on crappy teams. Is that their fault? *Garnett is just as good OR BETTER than Duncan, yet Duncan got all the praise because he had good management while Garnett rotted away in Minny.*
> 
> So you know what? That top 5 that you tried to use as a 'haha your list would suck so your logic is wrong' doesn't fly with me. All those players are great. Look at Chauncey and what he did to Denver and look at how the Pistons have a LOSING RECORD since acquiring AI and losing Billups.


you're funny.


----------



## Futurama_Fanatic

kflo said:


> you're funny.


indeed. he contradicts himself more than a politician in that quote


----------



## Luke

ChrisRichards you have to be kidding, Garnett as good or as good as Duncan? Pierce better then Kobe?

I guess i'll start with the Kobe-Pierce one first, you said that Pierce is as good of a shooter, then why is he barley shooting 40% while Kobe is shooting nearly 47% percent from the feild, a higher free-throw percentage and has a higher TS? Kobe is averaging more points, assists, steals, and blocks, (although it's close) and all of this is in less minutes. Pierce is a very good defender and is close to Kobe defensivly, i'll just call it a wash. Kobe has only missed the playoffs once in an injury riddled season with a crappy team, while Pierce had MANY seasons with him missing the playoff many years where it didnt even require him to get his team all that CLOSE to the .500 mark. 

On to Duncan-Garnett, are you kidding me? THIS YEAR ALONE Timmy averages more points, rebounds, assits, blocks,(in only 2.2 minutes more of action) while also playing better defense and provides more of an anchor for his defense while KG roams more and is better on the perimeter, post defense isn't even close. Yes Duncan had a better managment, but how is that his fault, you act like it takes something away from him because his gm can bring in some competant players. Even when KG got players to help him get to the finals he was CLEARLY the third best celtic on the floor, where as Duncan was the best Spur on the floor from the moment he arrived in the league to right now. You can't really bring up TP getting the finals MVP in 2007 because the Cavs point guard defense was so awful that it would be stupid not to milk it.


----------



## Smallballs

I guess ChrisRichards is also bound by his own logic to agree that Chauncey Billups and Tony Parker are better than John Stockton ever was.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Smallballs said:


> I guess ChrisRichards is also bound by his own logic to agree that Chauncey Billups and Tony Parker are better than John Stockton ever was.


Please don't use "ChrisRichards" and "logic" in the same sentence ever again...


----------



## Smallballs

PauloCatarino said:


> Please don't use "ChrisRichards" and "logic" in the same sentence ever again...


Yes, perhaps I am giving him too much credit. lol.


----------



## -33-

ChrisRichards said:


> You know what, that list isn't so bad.
> 
> Duncan is Tim freaking Duncan. He's still the man.
> 
> 
> Paul Pierce IS one of the best players in the league. *I take Pierce over Kobe in a heartbeat. Pierce plays better defense and can shoot just as well, he drives more to the basket nowadays, and is just as clutch as Kobe. ** The reason Pierce has been denied top player recognition is because he was on a CRAPPY TEAM.* If Kobe wasn't traded to the Lakers after the draft and stayed with the Hornets and it was PIERCE who teamed with Shaq....Kobe who? That's right.
> 
> Too much of player recognition goes into good teams. We ignore those on crappy teams. Is that their fault? *Garnett is just as good OR BETTER than Duncan, yet Duncan got all the praise because he had good management while Garnett rotted away in Minny.*
> 
> So you know what? That top 5 that you tried to use as a 'haha your list would suck so your logic is wrong' doesn't fly with me. All those players are great. Look at Chauncey and what he did to Denver and look at how the Pistons have a LOSING RECORD since acquiring AI and losing Billups.


You better check the expiration date on your egg nog, that **** is making you think strange things. 

Kobe has been an All-NBA defender for years, Pierce suddenly is a better defender? He's certainly not a poor defender, but on par with Kobe? No way. Maybe the fact that Garnett is behind him, made him a little better on the perimeter? If you asked all 30 coaches, I'd guarantee that an overwhelming majority would take Kobe to defend any perimeter player over Pierce. Same goes for the last shot of the game, Kobe is a better clutch player.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Hey look at that. Blazer fan buddying up with the Laker trolls on this board who feel anally hurt whenever someone says X is better than kobe


Pierce is a better player to me. I would take him over x player, what's your problem?


----------



## Dre

Just visiting....


----------



## Pioneer10

ChrisRichards said:


> Hey look at that. Blazer fan buddying up with the Laker trolls on this board who feel anally hurt whenever someone says X is better than kobe
> 
> 
> Pierce is a better player to me. I would take him over x player, what's your problem?


Yeah I think Chalmers is already a better player then Kobe. What's wrong with that :smart:


----------



## Luke

How am i a Laker troll? I don't agree with you (and by the way i doubt anyone else does) so all fo a sudden i'm a troll? Your the one who has to put down Kobe or the Lakers in EVERY SINGLE THREAD wheather it even concerns Kobe and the Lakers or not. 

But alright i guess that makes sense I'M the troll.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Smallballs said:


> I guess ChrisRichards is also bound by his own logic to agree that Chauncey Billups and Tony Parker are better than John Stockton ever was.


No, I am not bound by anything. I merely made the case that *those players don't make the list wrong*. They just give it a slightly different meaning. Pierce, Wade, etc are just as good as anyone and Parker/Billups are great point guards that are just as good as anyone. 

Did Stockton have the ability that Parker has to score points? Stockton has the assist ability and the great defense, but VERY FEW GREAT POINT GUARDS EVER WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP. If I was forced to pick a guard out of those 3 players, I would take Tony Parker first. He isn't horrible at D, and his offensive shooting is in the 50%+ for a PG. Finals MVP for a reason.

I am not saying Parker > Stockton, I am saying that a list with Parker over Stockton as your 'fave 5' is not wrong. They are all great players.


----------



## Dre

No, Parker is not great. And he's not better than Stockton at anything but pulling chicks. 

Edit: Then again IDK, the whole daisy duke look might've gotten the chicks back in the day....


----------



## ChrisRichards

Pioneer10 said:


> Yeah I think Chalmers is already a better player then Kobe. What's wrong with that :smart:


Because Chalmers > Kobe is the same as Pierce > Kobe?

Tell me, why does Kobe have all of this aura around him? He side-kicked his way to 3 championships with Shaq. Shaq won a ring with Wade and made it to the Finals with Penny. Prime Shaq would have succeeded with any great SG if it was not Kobe. Kobe shoots horrible percentages in Finals, he's 0-2 as #1 option. Because he scored a lot of points in 05-06? 

What is so bad about Pierce? He's right up there in scoring talent. Tell me ONE thing Kobe can do that Pierce can't. They both can shoot the 3, they both can drive, they both can dominate offensively.

Yeah, not much of a difference, except Pierce rotted away on bad Celtics team and never got the recognition he deserved.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

This guy keeps digging himself deeper in a whole, lmao, it might be illogical but at-least it's entertaining.


----------



## ChrisRichards

VanillaPrice said:


> How am i a Laker troll? I don't agree with you (and by the way i doubt anyone else does) so all fo a sudden i'm a troll? Your the one who has to put down Kobe or the Lakers in EVERY SINGLE THREAD wheather it even concerns Kobe and the Lakers or not.
> 
> But alright i guess that makes sense I'M the troll.


Because there are a group of Laker posters who, if ANYONE HAS THEIR OWN OPINION, all of them jump in the thread and start *personally attacking the poster*. You don't see Heat fans going on suicide watch and having to start calling you names if you say you like someone better than Wade, do you? Learn to behave


----------



## Luke

Parker benefits tremendously from playing with the best power forward of all time in Tim Duncan, he demands so much attention that Parker can use his speed to his upmost potential. Stockton was a FAR better passer and defender aswell as shooter, the only real advantage Parker has on Stockton is speed and ability to get to the rim, so i'm not really seeing a legitamate claim to saying that Parker>Stockton, just like i couldnt see Pierce>Kobe and Garnett>Duncan.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

ChrisRichards said:


> Because there are a group of Laker posters who, if ANYONE HAS THEIR OWN OPINION, all of them jump in the thread and start *personally attacking the poster*. You don't see Heat fans going on suicide watch and having to start calling you names if you say you like someone better than Wade, do you? Learn to behave


:lol: the irony.


----------



## Luke

How did i "personally attack you" because if i did i'm sorry, but i was under the impression that a BASKETBALL FORUM was for people to talk and ARGUE about basketball, no one "personally attacked you" except for calling you a troll (which you are) and even then you were calling everyone that didn't agree with YOU a troll aswell. But alright i guess i'll just go back to my so called suicide watch.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Dre™ said:


> No, Parker is not great. And he's not better than Stockton at anything but pulling chicks.
> 
> Edit: Then again IDK, the whole daisy duke look might've gotten the chicks back in the day....


Parker will definitely lose points with people who don't like his version of a PG. I understand.

How can you say Parker is not a better scorer than Stockton?


----------



## Dre

Ok, he might be a better scorer, but Stockton was a deadly accurate shooter. He reminds me of a more reformed Nash. He didn't have the arsenal of pullups and circus shots Nash had, but he was a good scorer on shooting alone.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

little richards has a lot of bitterness even on xmas day. not cool at all.


----------



## ChrisRichards

VanillaPrice said:


> Parker benefits tremendously from playing with the best power forward of all time in Tim Duncan, he demands so much attention that Parker can use his speed to his upmost potential. Stockton was a FAR better passer and defender aswell as shooter, the only real advantage Parker has on Stockton is speed and ability to get to the rim, so i'm not really seeing a legitamate claim to saying that Parker>Stockton, just like i couldnt see Pierce>Kobe and Garnett>Duncan.


So you are saying Parker wouldn't be the same if he wasn't playing with Tim Duncan.

I remember how Laker fans would respond when people would say "Kobe benefits tremendously playing with one of the best Centers of all time in Shaquille O'Neal, he demands so much attention that Kobe can ...."

It didn't prove anything did it. Kobe can still score and play great basketball. Tony Parker would too.


----------



## Luke

Yeah i am, he would't be nearly as efficient without Timmy clearing the lane and his shooting troubles will be exposed and he will be a lesser player.


----------



## blh5387

This thread is going way OT! We need to re-focus it on the awesomeness that is Dwyane Wade.


----------



## Luke

Oh and btw Kobe DID benefit tremendously from playing with Shaq, there is absolutly no denying it, so did Wade and so did Penny. Thats what happens when you play with the most dominant force the NBA has ever seen, it opens things up for everyone.


----------



## Diable

It's hard to believe that anyone could pretend that Parker would be just as good without Duncan.Noone goes into San Antonio with a gameplan to stop Tony Parker.That simply isn't how you win games.They go into San Antonio with a plan to stop Tim Duncan...they have to decide when and how they'll doubleteam him.Duncan has been the focus of opposing defenses from the word jump and it's hard to see when or if ever that's going to change.

If Parker was the best player on the Spurs he'd be facing defenses that were designed to keep him out of the lane.They'd be trapping him and running schemes designed to clog up the paint.Anyone who paid the slightest attention could see this never happens.He's being guarded man on man and the opposing big men rarely even cheat into the paint.In particular they usually stick with Duncan whether or not Parker beats his man.The help has to come from somewhere else and often it doesn't get there.

I usually try to let the opposing coaches tell me how good someone really is.When the other coach goes into a game with schemes that are designed to stop a particular player that tells me he's a really good player,especially if he can still produce once defenses are focused on him.If the other coach isn't doing anything special against someone that tells me the opposite.If he puts up numbers against straight man to man defense that just doesn't mean as much to me.It isn't the same.


----------



## Luke

Diable is exactly right.


----------



## -33-

Diable said:


> It's hard to believe that anyone could pretend that Parker would be just as good without Duncan.Noone goes into San Antonio with a gameplan to stop Tony Parker.That simply isn't how you win games.They go into San Antonio with a plan to stop Tim Duncan...they have to decide when and how they'll doubleteam him.Duncan has been the focus of opposing defenses from the word jump and it's hard to see when or if ever that's going to change.
> 
> If Parker was the best player on the Spurs he'd be facing defenses that were designed to keep him out of the lane.They'd be trapping him and running schemes designed to clog up the paint.Anyone who paid the slightest attention could see this never happens.He's being guarded man on man and the opposing big men rarely even cheat into the paint.In particular they usually stick with Duncan whether or not Parker beats his man.The help has to come from somewhere else and often it doesn't get there.
> 
> I usually try to let the opposing coaches tell me how good someone really is.When the other coach goes into a game with schemes that are designed to stop a particular player that tells me he's a really good player,especially if he can still produce once defenses are focused on him.If the other coach isn't doing anything special against someone that tells me the opposite.If he puts up numbers against straight man to man defense that just doesn't mean as much to me.It isn't the same.


I agree...

Duncan is a guy that you game plan for. He also isn't someone who you can shut down. It just doesn't happen very often. 

Tony Parker isn't at that elite level. He's a great PG in today's game, but in terms of NBA history, Tony Parker doesn't even get into the discussion. I don't care if he won a Finals MVP (like someone else has been arguing), I'd rather use the whole picture (not just one series) to judge a player.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

Diable said:


> It's hard to believe that anyone could pretend that Parker would be just as good without Duncan.Noone goes into San Antonio with a gameplan to stop Tony Parker.That simply isn't how you win games.They go into San Antonio with a plan to stop Tim Duncan...they have to decide when and how they'll doubleteam him.Duncan has been the focus of opposing defenses from the word jump and it's hard to see when or if ever that's going to change.
> 
> If Parker was the best player on the Spurs he'd be facing defenses that were designed to keep him out of the lane.They'd be trapping him and running schemes designed to clog up the paint.Anyone who paid the slightest attention could see this never happens.He's being guarded man on man and the opposing big men rarely even cheat into the paint.In particular they usually stick with Duncan whether or not Parker beats his man.The help has to come from somewhere else and often it doesn't get there.
> 
> I usually try to let the opposing coaches tell me how good someone really is.When the other coach goes into a game with schemes that are designed to stop a particular player that tells me he's a really good player,especially if he can still produce once defenses are focused on him.If the other coach isn't doing anything special against someone that tells me the opposite.If he puts up numbers against straight man to man defense that just doesn't mean as much to me.It isn't the same.


Qp


----------



## Dee-Zy

actually, I think most coaches have a plan to stop Parker but I agree that Parker and TD are not on the same level. TD is elite/superstar, TP is great/allstar.

on another note, D-Wade is the best player to have ever played the game. Magic Who? MJ who? Wilt Who?

yeah that's right


----------



## 77AJ

So who saw the Cavs (home) vs. Heat game tonight ? It was very close. Young team coughed up the ball and missed a few key shots in the 4th to allow the Cavs to pull away, but over all very tight game, lot's of good defense, and two top tier stars in LBJ and D Wade leading their respective teams. By watching this game all the way through, there is nothing LBJ does that separates himself as a better player than D Wade. They are definitely eye to eye when it comes to basketball skills. All that will ever happen between these two is one might have a hotter stretch and play better than one or the other, but in no uncertain terms can anyone say LBJ > D Wade. Just not the case at all now that Wade is back healthy. By the way No LBJ was not able to stop D Wade in the 4th quarter when he guarded D Wade. One of the times LBJ looks slow in the half court is when he's trying to guard D Wade. However I respect LBJ taking the challenge. So that leads me to my next question, if people here really believe LBJ is the best player in the world that should mean D Wade is the second best. However I doubt that's the case. So where do you rank LBJ and D Wade, team records aside, talking about individual skills. My top 3 haven't changed.

1.) Kobe Bryant
2.) Dwyane Wade/LeBron James


----------



## sknydave

I think all 3 of them are currently rotating the "best in the NBA" title on a nightly basis depending on who's hottest


----------



## Prolific Scorer

But you also have to remember that you're only as good as your system. Some players are relatively on the same level as far as talent is concerned but if your system is built around your game you can flourish. 

I believe Parker is good enough to build around, the Spurs wouldn't be as good but still. In a more uptempo game I think Parker would excel and put up numbers because he doesn't take alot of bad shots and his ability to get by people and into the paint and make intelligent plays both scoring and dishing, not to mention he's an excellent ballhandler


----------



## Luke

Yeah all three of Bron Kobe and Wade had good nights tonight,

I only watched the Lakers-Warriors game, but Kobe was just toying with them and the god awful Defense.

I kinda wished i watched Heat-Cavs cause it seems like it was a really entertaining game with 2 of the top three players in the league going at it.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

lebron, wade and kobe, in that order.


----------



## Luke

So far this season, yeah that seems reasonable but keep in mind Kobe hasn't started the season off good in years.

I think by the end of the season Kobe will be either #1 or #2.


----------



## 77AJ

By the way D Wade vs. LeBron part 2. Tuesday night on NBA TV. This time D Wade has home court, and it just so happens to be LeBron's 24th birthday. Should be another great duel.


----------



## Luke

I'm guessing Bron is going to go off and the Cavs win again, the Heat just can't stop the Cavs depth and have no one to match up with Big Z and with Shawn sucking and Beasley dissapointing i don't see how Bron and the Cavs shouldn't wipe the floor with them.


----------



## Pioneer10

The Heat really abused Z on defense. He's slow to begin with but with his hurt ankle his rotation off the pick and roll was really bad today.


----------



## Luke

Oh well, didn't know that. Even so i still think the Cavs will probobly stomp te Heat, espescially considering that it's Brons Birthday.


----------



## 77AJ

Jamaal Magloire, Haslem, Marion, Beasely, and Anthony more than held their own against the Cavs front line. I believe the Heat even out rebounded the Cavs.


----------



## Luke

No they didn't (46-43) but i can see your point that they did alot better then anyone really expected them too.

A big problem with the Heat is that they don't have anyone that can consistantly score in the paint, I mean Wade can drive in there but Haslem's not a force, and neither is Beasley or Marion, and i think that inside scoring is what is going to keep the Heat right around 40 wins this year.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

23AJ said:


> By the way D Wade vs. LeBron part 2. Tuesday night on NBA TV. This time D Wade has home court, and it just so happens to be LeBron's 24th birthday. Should be another great duel.


Definately a game to watch, should be fun. Wade & LBJ always enjoy these games against each other and seem to take the possibility of a loss more personally.




VanillaPrice said:


> A big problem with the Heat is that they don't have anyone that can consistantly score in the paint


We have Joel Anthony *****!


----------



## futuristxen

Doesn't Wade score most of his points in the paint?

At any rate, the Cavs will need to up the energy level if the want to beat the Heat in Miami. They've been coasting the last two games, and played down to the level of their opponent. They need to step up.

Delonte played good defense on Wade today. Can't say the same for Marion vs. Lebron.


----------



## Luke

I did mention that Wade scores in the paint, all im saying is that if your 2 guard is the only player on your tea that can score inside, then you have a problem.


----------



## Vivaldi

I think we can beat the Cavs at home. I haven't been watching them at all this year, but according to futuristxen they were coasting this last game, so I'm not sure we can take them if they play much better since we were pretty much doing our best and still lost, but if its the same type of game I think we can beat them at home.


----------



## hendrix2430

Although I'm a Cavs fan, Iadmit that if yesterday's game was played in Miami, I think the Heat would have won. 

They have a nice young team and an equally as promising coach.


----------



## Smallballs

If the Cavaliers can manage to pull off a win in Miami, it would be a major statement by them. However, it will definitely take a better effort than they put forth in the last game.


----------



## 77AJ

Smallballs said:


> If the Cavaliers can manage to pull off a win in Miami, it would be a major statement by them. However, it will definitely take a better effort than they put forth in the last game.


That's saying a lot for the Heat. Considering the route the Cavs have been putting teams before this match up, and the Heat being an insignificant player in the East this year (so we thought). Most posters Cavs fans believed these two games wouldn't be close and just another route in Cavs victories. It really show cases how special and great D Wade is, and how scrappy this Heat crew really is. They will play you to the end win or lose. Should be another great battle in Miami. Looking forward to it tomorrow. D Wade vs. LBJ version 2.0.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

I like our young team though. They're pretty weak in talent and depth (after our top 3 or 4 players, we're pretty much a pool of mediocrity), but we have a nice collection of hustle players and young guys to play out every game. I think we can give most teams a good challenge on any night, though we occasionally get ****ed up.

Tomorrow night, the Heat put an end to the Lebron show.

:gopray:


----------



## Dee-Zy

23AJ said:


> That's saying a lot for the Heat. Considering the route the Cavs have been putting teams before this match up, and the Heat being an insignificant player in the East this year (so we thought). Most posters Cavs fans believed these two games wouldn't be close and just another route in Cavs victories. It really show cases how special and great D Wade is, and how scrappy this Heat crew really is. They will play you to the end win or lose. Should be another great battle in Miami. Looking forward to it tomorrow. D Wade vs. LBJ version 2.0.



too bad the same can't be said about the raptors.

:azdaja:


----------



## Pain5155

VanillaPrice said:


> I did mention that Wade scores in the paint, all im saying is that if your 2 guard is the only player on your tea that can score inside, then you have a problem.


Theres no problem with wade scoring in the paint, the other 4 guys can just watch him drive all day, it won the heat 1 championship.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

For anyone interested, Wade is playing against Lebron right now. Game II, rematch after loss to Cavs in Cleveland.

Heat up 26-19 after Q1.


----------



## Luke

I didn't say there was anything wrong with Wade scoring all or most of his points in the paint.

I said that it was a problem for the team as a whole that the only person on the team which happens to be the two guard is the only one that can score consistantly in the paint.

And no the Heat did not win their ship with Wade being the only threat to score in the paint, does a man named Shaq ring a bell? What about Alonzo Mourning?


----------



## ChrisRichards

Heat defeat Cavs

Wade 21 pts, 12 assts, 5 rebs


----------



## 77AJ

Great game, Heat won, kind of expected it. Miami Heat are a team you have to truly beat from the tip to the finish. Cavs came out sluggish, and Heat never really relinquished the lead, even after the Cavs pushed for it in the 3rd quarter. LeBron had a nice offensive game with 38 points and 7 assists 2 rebounds, 0 steals, 2 blocks. D Wade put up 21 points 12 assists, 5 rebounds, 3 steals, 1 block (on LeBron on the break). Good stuff. Heat are on the move up.

By the way Chalmers has to be one of the most slept on rookies this season. The kid has NBA game, and IMO out playing Beasely.


----------



## futuristxen

Yeah kind of not suprised by this result. It's hard to win home and home series against any team, but especially the Heat the way they were locked in. They seemed to know where all of the Cavs plays were going, and their recovery was on par with the Celtics in terms of getting back to shooters. Add to that the Cavs general lethargy(too much partying the night before?) and the result wasn't suprising. Nice game from Lebron though.

I'd wager that this Heat team will end up with the 5 seed unless Wade gets injured. This would be one of the last teams you'd want to face in the first round though if you were the Cavs, Magic, or Celtics.


----------



## -33-

futuristxen said:


> Yeah kind of not suprised by this result. It's hard to win home and home series against any team, but especially the Heat the way they were locked in. They seemed to know where all of the Cavs plays were going, and their recovery was on par with the Celtics in terms of getting back to shooters. *Add to that the Cavs general lethargy(too much partying the night before?)* and the result wasn't suprising. Nice game from Lebron though.
> 
> I'd wager that this Heat team will end up with the 5 seed unless Wade gets injured. This would be one of the last teams you'd want to face in the first round though if you were the Cavs, Magic, or Celtics.












Party is just starting... :yay:


----------



## Luke

I'm sure the Magic would much rather play the Heat then the Pistons or the Hawks, mainly just because of matchup and the mental hold Detriot seems to have over Orlando that refuses to let Orlando ever beat them.


----------



## Brandname

23AJ said:


> Great game, Heat won, kind of expected it. Miami Heat are a team you have to truly beat from the tip to the finish. Cavs came out sluggish, and Heat never really relinquished the lead, even after the Cavs pushed for it in the 3rd quarter. LeBron had a nice offensive game with 38 points and 7 assists 2 rebounds, 0 steals, 2 blocks. D Wade put up 21 points 12 assists, 5 rebounds, 3 steals, 1 block (on LeBron on the break). Good stuff. Heat are on the move up.
> 
> By the way Chalmers has to be one of the most slept on rookies this season. The kid has NBA game, and IMO out playing Beasely.


You should post that Lebron block on Wade if you can find it. Sweet stuff.


----------



## Brandname

DQ for 3 said:


> Party is just starting... :yay:


Seems like everyone EXCEPT Lebron had the party on their minds tonight.

Credit to the Heat mostly though. You guys play some serious defense, and those guys around Wade are actually pretty impressive.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

Lebron on Wade






Wade on Lebron


----------



## Brandname

I missed Wade's block during the game. Good stuff there.

But wow is that some home cooking or what? LOL. Clearly the wrong call and a technical to boot.


----------



## Wade2Bosh

Brandname said:


> I missed Wade's block during the game. Good stuff there.
> 
> But wow is that some home cooking or what? LOL. Clearly the wrong call and a technical to boot.


The refs overturned that and gave it back to the Cavs but they still gave Lebron the technical, even though that ref was wrong. All game long the refs were getting calls wrong, but then they'd huddle up and reverse their calls.


----------



## Brandname

Wade2Matrix said:


> The refs overturned that and gave it back to the Cavs but they still gave Lebron the technical, even though that ref was wrong. All game long the refs were getting calls wrong, but then they'd huddle up and reverse only to overturn their calls.


More and more as I watch the NBA I get very pessimistic about the officiating. I know everyone says this but it just seems like it's constantly getting worse. 

It seems more and more like they all make calls based on 'feel'. If one team gets two or three calls in a row, you better believe a makeup call is happening on the other end. It's almost as if they try to just even up the number of free throws no matter what, and it results in about a million bad calls every game. Both teams feel like they are screwed by the refs because calls against your team are so much more noticeable. In the last game (in Cleveland), I was furious at the refs all game because it seemed like we were getting screwed. Then I go to the Miami boards, and they feel the same way. Something is not right about that, lol.


----------



## 77AJ

Brandname said:


> You should post that Lebron block on Wade if you can find it. Sweet stuff.


Actually it was pretty sweet, but nothing compared to some of LeBrons monster blocks. More importantly were talking a 6'4" guy vs. a 6'8" guy. Wade's blocks are more sensational based on the athleticism it takes for a guy of his stature to do the things he does in the air defensively. Not to say LeBron's aren't special, but it's an advantage to have an extra 4" plus the same athleticism as D Wade.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

Cavs have been regressing on offense the last few games. Bron scoring 38 pts is a good indicator that Z/Mo aren't playing well..

Really impressed with the young players on the Heat - Chalmers and Cook were just on fire from the 3pt line. Wade has some pretty nice role players around him in MIA, Heat will surprise some people this year IMO


----------



## blh5387

23AJ said:


> Actually it was pretty sweet, but nothing compared to some of LeBrons monster blocks. More importantly were talking a 6'4" guy vs. a 6'8" guy. Wade's blocks are more sensational based on the athleticism it takes for a guy of his stature to do the things he does in the air defensively. Not to say LeBron's aren't special, but it's an advantage to have an extra 4" plus the same athleticism as D Wade.


Plus, let's consider the fact that Wade averages 1.6 BPG to Lebron's 1.1 BPG... and then think about their height differential. Pretty unbelievable. Wade has to be the best blocking guard in the history of the league (with the exception of Jordan). Or, at least the best under 6'6.

Wade with the block! Wade...with...the...block!


----------



## 77AJ

blh5387 said:


> Plus, let's consider the fact that Wade averages 1.6 BPG to Lebron's 1.1 BPG... and then think about their height differential. Pretty unbelievable. Wade has to be the best blocking guard in the history of the league (with the exception of Jordan). Or, at least the best under 6'6.
> 
> Wade with the block! Wade...with...the...block!


Yep, it definitely takes extreme effort, concentration, and god given athletic ability to do the things these guy's do on the defensive end. However no doubt D Wade is at an disadvantage given his stature in size when it comes to blocking shots. However one thing I would point out is that most of LBJ/D Wades blocks do come off of help defense, and spying other players who don't see them sneaking behind them for the blocks. So I guess you could say both have very good court timing. Considering they usually don't foul out of games. 

If I was an NBA head coach, I would always school my players on the fact, when we play against D Wade or LBJ. Please be aware of where they are on the court on fast breaks, and in the half court, because they love to come swarming over you and block your shots, and make you look foolish. LOL Some guys just don't have very good all around court senses though, it seems when they go to make their movies, and get locked in they lose sight of all the help defenders that could block their shots. 

But yeah D Wade is so special he's perfectly on par with LeBron James. He's proven it this season so far. No doubt will be an interesting finish, and will be interesting to see who wins the MVP. Good two games though by both guys, and their respective teams.


----------



## Dee-Zy

Bron because of team record.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Brandname said:


> Both teams feel like they are screwed by the refs because calls against your team are so much more noticeable. In the last game (in Cleveland), I was furious at the refs all game because it seemed like we were getting screwed. Then I go to the Miami boards, and they feel the same way. Something is not right about that, lol.


Yea you could see that in the players too. After each call they'd alternate turns of erupting at the officials lol..


----------



## Brandname

23AJ said:


> Actually it was pretty sweet, but nothing compared to some of LeBrons monster blocks. More importantly were talking a 6'4" guy vs. a 6'8" guy. Wade's blocks are more sensational based on the athleticism it takes for a guy of his stature to do the things he does in the air defensively. Not to say LeBron's aren't special, but it's an advantage to have an extra 4" plus the same athleticism as D Wade.


Well it was extra special just because it was Wade. Just like Wade's on Bron. It's not every day that either of those guys gets their shot blocked, and that they blocked each others' is pretty damn cool. Both of those guys can get up.


----------



## 77AJ

Brandname said:


> Well it was extra special just because it was Wade. Just like Wade's on Bron. It's not every day that either of those guys gets their shot blocked, and that they blocked each others' is pretty damn cool. Both of those guys can get up.


Yep it was a very special couple of games because it doesn't get any better than Bron vs. D Wade this season.


----------



## hendrix2430

I thought both games were extra dissapointing. Cavs looking just horrible, playing hard for 24 minutes, if that. Being out rebounded by the Heat is telling. If I was Mike Brown, I'd not allow the players to go out on Bron's birthday.


----------



## DNKO

I won't read all the comments here, all I can say is

Wade = Converse = no exposure. 

I won't bring any names in this except Wade's. Wade is

1. in NBA in PPG+RPG+APG

Wade is one of the quickest I've ever seen and the way he nimbles through defense is straight retarded.

Wade blocks shots regularly. Wade rebounds. Wade assists. Wade has a ring. Wade has a Finals MVP.

Wade is heavily, heavily underrated and unpromoted. Because he's as good as the "others" from his generation are.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Nike owns Converse though


----------



## kisstherim




----------



## futuristxen

I think Lebron will end the season ahead of Wade in points rebounds and assists. As the Cavs schedule gets tougher, he'll play more minutes, his FG% will go down a little bit, his turnovers will go up a little bit, so his PER will probably come down, but his PPG should go back to 30, and his assists will probably come up a little too. I don't think Wade is good enough to hold off Lebron for the scoring title. 

Not unless he starts scoring a lot more than he is. 29 per game for the team he is on isn't that impressive. if that were Kobe or Lebron on that Heat team they'd be well over 30. Just look at the precedent.


----------



## futuristxen

DNKO said:


> Wade is heavily, heavily underrated and unpromoted. Because he's as good as the "others" from his generation are.


Dunno if Lebron is really from Wade's generation. Wade is kind of an old man compared to Lebron. He's like three years older, no? He's entering his prime right now, Lebron is still 3 years away from his prime.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Dwyane Wade isn't promoted? That's news to me.


----------



## futuristxen

Sir Patchwork said:


> Dwyane Wade isn't promoted? That's news to me.


It's not like his annoying *** T-mobile commercials with Barkley aren't on every five seconds. How many diffrent versions of the same commercial can they make?


----------



## Luke

Yeah, Wade is defenatly one of the most promoted players in the league, maybe not as much as Lebron, but probobly more then anyone else.


----------



## Dee-Zy

futuristxen said:


> I think Lebron will end the season ahead of Wade in points rebounds and assists. As the Cavs schedule gets tougher, he'll play more minutes, his FG% will go down a little bit, his turnovers will go up a little bit, so his PER will probably come down, but his PPG should go back to 30, and his assists will probably come up a little too. I don't think Wade is good enough to hold off Lebron for the scoring title.
> 
> *Not unless he starts scoring a lot more than he is. 29 per game for the team he is on isn't that impressive. if that were Kobe or Lebron on that Heat team they'd be well over 30. Just look at the precedent.*




:lol:

no seriously... 
:lol:

I think you should re-read what you just wrote.

Who cares if Wade would score less than Kobe and Bron on the same ****ty team? They are winning ball games, that is the only important thing. If anything, it shows that Wade doesn't have to score as much with a bunch of scrubs (I am being harsh here, but you get the point) around him to win games as Kobe and Lebron does because he makes his teammates better.
heat is:sparta:


----------



## ChrisRichards

Wade would NEVER chuck up 40 shots if he could help it. he is a humble player and will always try to win with teammates instead of trying to do it all by himself.

he's very intelligent, hence his Finals MVP.

lsat night, the HEAT beat the Cavs and Wade 'only' put up 21 pts. 

he is happy with that, he doesn't care about that stuff. he doesn't have a huge ego at ALL.


----------



## Prolific Scorer

futuristxen said:


> I don't think Wade is good enough to hold off Lebron for the scoring title.
> 
> 29 per game for the team he is on isn't that impressive.


You really believe this?


----------



## Diable

I'd rather win games than scoring titles and that means I'd put lebron on the bench every chance I got to rest him.Wade is going to continue to get a lot of shot attempts and that's pretty much the key to winning scoring titles


----------



## Alanda2

NFL jerseys
Online Shops www.shoes-trader.com
Wholesale retail air nike,air jordan,adidas,puma,gucci,af1,max,UGG boots,sandal,evisu,diesel,Af,NFL jersey,NBA jersey,Timberland,prada,Lacoste shoes,coach,

we suggest for Apparel wholesale are Hoodies, Jacket, Sweater, T-shirt, Jersey, Hoodies,underwears,bikini,sports suits(NBA,MLB,NFL,NHL),coats and Jacket including A&F, BBC, Bape, 10DEEP, Artful Dodger, Christan Audigier, CLH, COOGI, ED Hardy, Evisu, Gino Green Global, Kidrobot, LRG and so on. new A&F hoodies are best right now. Sweater and T-shirt including A&F, BBC, CA, COOGI, D&G, GGG, Lacoste, Polo, Artful Dodger, ARMANI and so on.

now more popular brand are A&F and Polo.if you like sport,our jersey are Soccer Jersey, NFL jersey, NBA Jersey and so on. now more popular brand is NBA jersey.


if you want buy what,please contact us:
website: http:// www.shoes-trader.com msn is [email protected]


----------



## NewAgeBaller

hendrix2430 said:


> I thought both games were extra dissapointing. Cavs looking just horrible, playing hard for 24 minutes, if that. Being out rebounded by the Heat is telling. If I was Mike Brown, I'd not allow the players to go out on Bron's birthday.


I wonder how Lebron would feel about that.. :laugh:


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Ahh, nvm. Seems the Cavaliers were not invited. Dwyane Wade on the other hand.. 



> MIAMI - LeBron James' 24th birthday party Monday night on South Beach did not include any Cavaliers teammates, but it did include a Tuesday night opponent.
> 
> "There weren't any team players there," Heat guard Dwyane Wade said of the event. "It was moreso of close family, things like that."
> 
> Considering the time they spent together leading to the 2003 NBA Draft and then their years as two-time Olympic teammates, James and Wade have come to consider themselves family.
> 
> "For about an hour and a half, for whatever I was there, I just enjoyed it," Wade said. "They brought out the cake, sang Happy Birthday."
> 
> James appreciated Wade's presence.
> 
> "For him to celebrate with me, it just shows the type of guy he is, just shows the type of friendship that we have," he said. "We've got a lot of history together."


- Sun Sentinel

Can you say 2010? :biggrin:


----------



## ChrisRichards

yup 

Riley already started working on the cap space for 2010 since the Shaq trade lol.


----------



## hendrix2430

NewAgeBaller said:


> I wonder how Lebron would feel about that.. :laugh:


Well, the HEAD coach is Mike Brown. He can decide whatever he wants. But yeah, I wonder how Lebron would feel about that... :biggrin:


----------



## hendrix2430

NewAgeBaller said:


> Ahh, nvm. Seems the Cavaliers were not invited. Dwyane Wade on the other hand..


Well it's common knowledge that Lebron and Dwyane are best friends in the league, so...I understand why'd he'd allow Wade to attend. lol 

On the other hand, some Wade fans dislike Lebron (and the other way around)... so that's ironic. :sarcasm:


----------



## Vivaldi

I'm a wade fan and I reaaaaaaaaaaaaaally like lebron

specially in a heat jersey


----------



## Flash is the Future

ChrisRichards said:


> yup
> 
> Riley already started working on the cap space for 2010 since the Shaq trade lol.


I'm not sure what you mean. The Shaq trade lost us 4.8 million in 2010 capspace.

But yeah, I like Lebron too.


----------



## 77AJ

Another big team match up for the Heat is going to their next game tomorrow against the Magic in Orlando. Should be quite the test, especially after coming off an impressive win against the Cavs.


----------



## -33-

23AJ said:


> Another big team match up for the Heat is going to their next game tomorrow against the Magic in Orlando. Should be quite the test, especially after coming off an impressive win against the Cavs.


Dwight gives us a ton of trouble inside. If I'm coaching the Heat against the Magic, I'd let Dwight get his, and hope to shut down everyone else. Without Pietrus, the Magic are gonna have a tough time with Wade though too.


----------



## ChrisRichards

we are going to get clobbered by the magic =( how are going to stop dwight.

it's not even about stopping him from scoring, what about all the rebounds and offensive rebs he is going to get. we already had trouble with Varejao on the Cavs with like 10 tips on a missed shot the other night.


----------



## -33-

ChrisRichards said:


> we are going to get clobbered by the magic =( how are going to stop dwight.
> 
> it's not even about stopping him from scoring, what about all the rebounds and offensive rebs he is going to get. we already had trouble with Varejao on the Cavs with like 10 tips on a missed shot the other night.


But they've also got no stop for Wade...


----------



## NewAgeBaller

hendrix2430 said:


> Well it's common knowledge that Lebron and Dwyane are best friends in the league, so...I understand why'd he'd allow Wade to attend. lol
> 
> On the other hand, some Wade fans dislike Lebron (and the other way around)... so that's ironic. :sarcasm:


I like Lebron, and like someone else said, I'd really like him if he were in a Heat jersey.




23AJ said:


> Another big team match up for the Heat is going to their next game tomorrow against the Magic in Orlando. Should be quite the test, especially after coming off an impressive win against the Cavs.


Joel v Dwight II.

:no:


----------



## hendrix2430

NewAgeBaller said:


> I like Lebron, and like someone else said, I'd really like him if he were in a Heat jersey.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Joel v Dwight II.
> 
> :no:


You mean Wade and Lebron in a Cavs jersey? That would be my dream...oh god, budda, allah (whatever), please make it happen! :clap:


----------



## ChrisRichards

nope. I mean LeBron in a HEAT jersey 

OH EYAH!!!


----------



## futuristxen

Dunno why the Heat would be expected to win in Orlando. They lost in Cleveland. Though I guess Orlando is close enough that it's not a huge road trip, but for the most part Orlando should defend it's home court. None of the Heat's big wins have been on the road. They beat the Cavs and Lakers both in Miami.


----------



## Dee-Zy

None are expecting Heat to win but Heat are so :sparta: that anything is possible with them 


Sadly though... the same cannot be said about the raps. I think I have given up on them and I'm a guy that didn't give up on the 15 wins Heat.

Shows you how terrible the raps are.


----------



## Flash is the Future

futuristxen said:


> Dunno why the Heat would be expected to win in Orlando. They lost in Cleveland. Though I guess Orlando is close enough that it's not a huge road trip, but for the most part Orlando should defend it's home court. None of the Heat's big wins have been on the road. They beat the Cavs and Lakers both in Miami.


We beat SA in SA. That was the night Parker got hurt, but we were up big long before he had to leave the game. And we beat Phoenix in Phoenix. Both of those were pretty big wins for us.


----------



## Pioneer10

Flash is the Future said:


> We beat SA in SA. That was the night Parker got hurt, but we were up big long before he had to leave the game. And we beat Phoenix in Phoenix. Both of those were pretty big wins for us.


With Miami and Cleveland, I think Miami did a great job taking a hobbled Ilguaskas out of the game. Cleveland's play has pretty much directly correlated with how Z plays: out last very good win (i.e. looking like a championship team) came against Denver when he came back from his ankel injury. His performance has gone down since then and the Cavs are sitting him out again starting tonight.

I don't think Miami will be so lucky with there undersized frontcourt against Howard but who knows it's the NBA any team can win on any given day particularly when you have a guy Like Wade on the roster. If Howard doesn't have a big game though I think the Magic will have a tough time winning as Miami has enough smaller athletic players to stick with Orlando's shooters


----------



## SickGame

Dee-Zy said:


> None are expecting Heat to win but Heat are so :sparta: that anything is possible with them
> 
> 
> Sadly though... the same cannot be said about the raps. I think I have given up on them and I'm a guy that didn't give up on the 15 wins Heat.
> 
> Shows you how terrible the raps are.


Amen.
And for some strange reason, I'll be watching the game tonight with such disdain. And to think that Colangelo got GM of the year

The Heat have the right guard system to bother the Magic into a poor shooting night. Once that's taken care of, the Magic have little to rely on, Dwight or no Dwight. I'm a fan of the way the Heat play on most nights.


----------



## -33-

SickGame said:


> Amen.
> And for some strange reason, I'll be watching the game tonight with such disdain. And to think that Colangelo got GM of the year
> 
> The Heat have the right guard system to bother the Magic into a poor shooting night. Once that's taken care of, the Magic have little to rely on, Dwight or no Dwight. I'm a fan of the way the Heat play on most nights.


We've got a surprisingly effective matchup 2-3 zone that we've been using the past few games. We can bottle up the inside and slow Dwight, hopefully their shooters continue to be off tonight. Dwight has 7 pts, 5 boards at half, that's fine with me. Like I said above, Wade is just as tough to cover for the Magic tonight. He's got 21 in the 1st half.


----------



## 77AJ

D Wade is unstoppable.


----------



## Dee-Zy

Looks like Magic found the recipe to stop Wade tonight... Heat collapsed in the 4th and Wade was shut down in the 4th....


----------



## -33-

Dee-Zy said:


> Looks like Magic found the recipe to stop Wade tonight... Heat collapsed in the 4th and Wade was shut down in the 4th....


...his teammates did a hell of a job shooting ice cold tonight too. Not hard to stop a guy when you know the other 4 guys can't put the ball in the hole.

With our lineup, that's going to happen some nights. You gotta deal with it and move on to the next game. I don't like to lose, but I'm pleased with how we played for 3 quarters with a top 3-4 team in our conference in their place.


----------



## Vivaldi

I knew we were going to loose, but glad we kept it close and we're in it towards the end. D-wade with 33 through 3 quarters an on js mostly, but scoreless in the 4th? Looks like Orlando found a way to stop him at the end, and it didn't help no one else on the heat could make a shot to save their lives. 

Man....Orlando is one scary *** team from the 3....its like automatic they make when open, and half the time when contested.


----------



## SickGame

If anyone else on the Heat showed up, the game would've turned out different. Wade ran out of steam after putting the team on his back for the first three quarters.

My problem is that outside of Wade, Beasley was the only player who seemed to have any sort of an efficient offensive night yet he only saw 13 minutes or so and played less than Cook. Granted, the rotation is different for Beasley but the guy was 4/9 in limited time. With his offensive talent, he has to see the floor way more during some situations ... especially when Chalmers and Marion are a combined 2 of 17.

Yet again, if Hedo didn't have the worst shooting night of his career, this game would've been out of reach pretty early.


----------



## Dee-Zy

About Hedo. Bad shooting night? Or Marion doing a good job? I'm confused...

Perhaps the reason Bease was kept out is because Spo thought that Marion was doing a good job on Hedo?


----------



## ChrisRichards

I told ya ;/

i knew we were gonna lose tonight. simply because the magic have a much better lineup and dwight is going to dominate inside all day long.

Stan Van Gundy knows D-Wade too well also


----------



## NewAgeBaller

I wasn't expecting a win but thought it was achievable. And it looks like it was, only we made a team decision to play horribly.

Missed the game, looks like it was the right decision.

The Magic are just deadly from 3..

And how does Beasley play that little minutes in a game where everyone else is playing that bad..


----------



## Brandname

DQ for 3 said:


> ...his teammates did a hell of a job shooting ice cold tonight too. Not hard to stop a guy when you know the other 4 guys can't put the ball in the hole.


See 2007 NBA Finals. It's a very sad sight to see.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Brandname said:


> See 2007 NBA Finals. It's a very sad sight to see.


You know if they were together this would never have to happen..


----------



## hendrix2430

Great performance by D Wade...but his guys couldn't make shots. It happens. Cleveland fans know that and feel for D Wade...now, dwyane, come to Cleveland.


----------



## ChrisRichards




----------



## Idunkonyou

Dee-Zy said:


> About Hedo. Bad shooting night? Or Marion doing a good job? I'm confused...


It has nothing to do with Marion. Hedo has been up and down all season when it comes to his offense. On the flip side he had 11 rebounds and 5 assists so at least he was doing more than just missing shots. :yay:


----------



## Brandname

ChrisRichards said:


>


Hell yeah! Jerome James sporting a fresh new Miami jersey to make up for Dwyane bolting to Cleveland. Not a complete replacement but it'll have to do until they can trade for a bigger name.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

Brandname said:


> Hell yeah! Jerome James sporting a fresh new Miami jersey to make up for Dwyane bolting to Cleveland. Not a complete replacement but it'll have to do until they can trade for a bigger name.


Miami can just make Marion their franchise player, give him a max-extension then when Wade comes up let him move to CLE, Lebron and Wade. Can you imagine the expensive bunk-beds they would buy lol


----------



## -33-

ChrisRichards said:


>


We retired #23 when Jordan retired, sorry LeBron, pick a new number. #13 was retired for Marino, so that's out too.


----------



## Nu_Omega

I hope Wade wins league MVP.


----------



## Brandname

DQ for 3 said:


> We retired #23 when Jordan retired, sorry LeBron, pick a new number. #13 was retired for Marino, so that's out too.


That's so weird.


----------



## Luke

Why would Jordans number be retired for the Heat?


----------



## Dre

Ask Pat Riley...


----------



## NewAgeBaller

DQ for 3 said:


> We retired #23 when Jordan retired, sorry LeBron, pick a new number. #13 was retired for Marino, so that's out too.


He should take #25, then watch as Kobe moves to #26 to mark the 'next stage of his career'.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Btw, seeing as this is like an update thread, Wade is playing poorly tonight. Can't make shots (inc. a few layups & a missed dunk), turnovers, etc.. and he appears to have injured his knee somewhat.

We're tied 69-69 with NJ though.


----------



## Luke

Does anyone know why Harris is out of the Nets-Heat game?


----------



## NewAgeBaller

VanillaPrice said:


> Does anyone know why Harris is out of the Nets-Heat game?


I didn't notice that till now.. No wonder we're still in the game with Wade playing poorly. We're also missing Marion.

Don't know, maybe he's afraid of Yakhouba Diawara and his FIVE 3-POINTERS TONIGHT! WOOOOOOOOOOO!!! :sparta:


----------



## Luke

Hahaha, to bad Baron isn't there to drop one of his classic 50 30 7 games.


----------



## Basel

VanillaPrice said:


> Does anyone know why Harris is out of the Nets-Heat game?


Resting his hamstring.


----------



## Luke

O ok thanks Basel, and wow are VC and Wade canceling eachother out or something, because neither one of them can seem to hit a shot.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

This is just sad.. Their leading scorer is Keyon Dooling and ours is Yakhouba Diawara..


----------



## Luke

Tie game with a minute thirty to go..


----------



## 77AJ

Amazing defensive block in the paint by D Wade on the 7 footer.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Wade just owned Lopez' ****!


----------



## 77AJ

Make that two blocks this second block on Vince Carter by D Wade. Amazing defense by D Wade this season. Just sick!!


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Oh ****, VC swatted this time.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Wtf Keyon man.. :azdaja:


----------



## 77AJ

D Wade short on the game winner. LOL over time game.


----------



## Luke

Wow, two clutch blocks by Wade.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Aaand.. we going to OT.

Didn't really like that shot by Wade. He could have worked it more, I'd prefer he risk his defender getting too close (eg. pump-fake) than settling for that shot.


----------



## 77AJ

The defensive stand by Wade stopping the Nets Center and their all star SG on two completely different offensive sets was just amazing. The guy has been playing at an incredible rate defensively this season. Easily on par with the best perimeter defenders of the NBA this year.


----------



## Luke

Wow apparetly Wade with another block on Lopez


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Dwyane Wade!


----------



## Luke

Wow, this Wade guy is pretty good.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Beasley with a monster block!!


----------



## 77AJ

D Wade putting the capper on the evening with an and one.


----------



## 77AJ

NewAgeBaller said:


> Beasley with a monster block!!


That was a tasty block. Straight man to man defense.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Wade AND1 and a shimmy for Toine on the ground!! :biggrin:


----------



## Luke

Damn, how many times did Lopez get blocked?


----------



## 77AJ

Dwayne Wade lock down defender this year. Dude has just been a straight baller this year, definitely D Wade is back and back on top!! So electric.


----------



## Luke

Here's to hoping for a Lebron-Wade matchup in the first round, although it probobly isn't going to happen with Z out for a month or so.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

VanillaPrice said:


> Damn, how many times did Lopez get blocked?


I think 4 times in like his last 5 minutes of game time.. Feel bad for dude.. :laugh:

Well Miami will most likely take this one.

Wade was poor through 3 quarters but really came up big late.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

VanillaPrice said:


> Here's to hoping for a Lebron-Wade matchup in the first round, although it probobly isn't going to happen with Z out for a month or so.


No thanks, mayb in the ECF.. :yes:


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Oh **** Wade just missed 2 FT's..

I never knew Hassell played so many minutes for the Nets. I think he did anyway, seen him pretty often tonight.


----------



## 77AJ

Net's trying to spoil this for D Wade. 2 point game with 10 seconds left.


----------



## Luke

Hahahaha, yeah dudes clutch as ****

And speaking of clutch guards Mike Bibby hit a gamewinner trey to put the Hawks over the Rockets today, before the season started did ANYONE expect the Hawks to be 23-11?


----------



## 77AJ

VanillaPrice said:


> Hahahaha, yeah dudes clutch as ****
> 
> And speaking of clutch guards Mike Bibby hit a gamewinner trey to put the Hawks over the Rockets today, before the season started did ANYONE expect the Hawks to be 23-11?


quiet plz.... I'm still bitter about that game tonight.


----------



## Cap

^ Hawks are deep, don't hate.


----------



## Luke

EHL said:


> ^ Hawks are deep, don't hate.




Yeah they are, after four years of living here it's finally worth going to a Hawks game.


----------



## 77AJ

EHL said:


> ^ Hawks are deep, don't hate.


I like the Hawks too, but not as much as the Rockets. I predicted the Rockets to win it all this year. So the Hawks will, and can destroy all season, but not tonight, nope the Rockets choked.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

8.8 ticks left, Heat up on NJ by 3.

Hawks are one of my favorite teams too.

VC misses the three for the game (w/ two defenders all over him), and thats the game.


----------



## Luke

It seems like everyone likes the Hawks now for some reason, probobly because their really fun to watch and Marvin is a bad***.

Carter misses the three Heat win.


----------



## 77AJ

It's a wrap Heat win.

Heat will always be in games because of their defense, but outside of Wade they don't have a lot of offense yet. I think Beasely in a season or two will be a major threat, but right now he's to inconsistent. Beasely will be a beast though he's a huge dude on Lebron Paul Pierce level big. He's also got some great hops, and major potential. Chalmers is great, but still a work i progress on the offensive end. After that who do they have ? Heat need to find a way to trade Marion, although I do like the Matrix defensive capabilities.


----------



## Luke

23AJ said:


> I like the Hawks too, but not as much as the Rockets. I predicted the Rockets to win it all this year. So the Hawks will, and can destroy all season, but not tonight, nope the Rockets choked.



Did you think that everyone on the Lakers Celtics and Cavs to retire right before the season started?


----------



## 77AJ

VanillaPrice said:


> Did you think that everyone on the Lakers Celtics and Cavs to retire right before the season started?


Hardly, and I'm not the only one that predicted the Rockets to win or at least be in the finals before the season. Jeff Van Gundy is also on board. And he actually believe the Rockets are still legit. Where as I realize now, and can see that T-Mac has dropped off. If T-Mac could play as well as he did even last season Rockets would be right there, but he seems really out of it this season. It's really hard to watch, because I love T-Macs game. Dude is just not right this year, and the Rockets drop a tier because of that. Still though I maintain Rockets choked in the game tonight.


----------



## 77AJ

D Wade was superior in the 4th quarter. Amazing highlights for D Wade after tonights game. Good stuff NBA Fans!! Great stuff even!!


----------



## Luke

Yeah i feel bad for Tmac, i never really liked him as a player all that much, but i met him once and he was really nice, it's a shame to see him completly fall off.

And of course Jeff Van Gundy thought the Rockets were/are legit, he thought that Tmac should have been the MVP if i recall correctly.


----------



## Luke

23AJ said:


> D Wade was superior in the 4th quarter. Amazing highlights for D Wade after tonights game. Good stuff NBA Fans!! Great stuff even!!


Yeah, although i don't really like him, Wade is ******* good, and theres not really anything else i can put him down for anymore:azdaja:


----------



## 77AJ

VanillaPrice said:


> Yeah, although i don't really like him, Wade is ******* good, and theres not really anything else i can put him down for anymore:azdaja:


Yep can't hate greatness, I even learned that through the trials and tribulations I had with LeBron James back in the day. Now though I rank D Wade number two in the game, and number two SG in the game. 

Time to pull rank

1.) Kobe Bean Bryant
2.) Dwyane Wade/LeBron James
3.) Kevin Garnett
4.) Tim Duncan
5.) Dwight Howard


----------



## Luke

Woah KG over Timmy? No CP3? And as much as I love him Kobe hasn't played as well as Bron this year...

Haha yeah I went through the same things with Bron, he's gotten to the point that he's so good I can't really hate/bash him anymore, and although i don't like him I respect him alot more now.


----------



## 77AJ

VanillaPrice said:


> Woah KG over Timmy? No CP3? And as much as i love him Kobe hasn't played as well as Bron this year...


Right, just my opinion dude, No doubt you can move guys around, but yeah I would take those 5 over anyone in the league. Chris Paul is not in my top 5 radar. Just watch him on league pass tonight as the Nuggets route them. Second Kobes game IMO is superior to Bron and Wade, I don't care what kind of stats they put up, Kobe has an edge on those two guys 9 times out of 10. Yes I know D Wade got one already this season, but the season is still young, and Kobe is just getting going. Kevin Garnett IMO has always been as good or better than Duncan, he's just had horrible teams around him, imagine Duncan in a T-Wolves jersey for 10 plus years, and Garnett as a Spur for 10 + years.

There is no way KG's star wouldn't of rocketed to the moon 10x over already if that was the case. Great players rotting on bad teams on low profile NBA teams is a shame. It's happening right now in Minnesota with Al Jefferson, dude is sick, but get's how much pub ? Yeah exactly nadda!!


----------



## Luke

So far this year Kobe hasn't been better then Bron, but whatever. I think he will be playing better around playoff time and outplay Lebron in the playoffs, but so far Lebron has been the best as much as i hate to admit it.

And i guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree about the Timmy-KG thing because my opinion is obvouisly wayy differnt then yours on the topic.


----------



## 77AJ

VanillaPrice said:


> So far this year Kobe hasn't been better then Bron, but whatever. I think he will be playing better around playoff time and outplay Lebron in the playoffs, but so far Lebron has been the best as much as i hate to admit it.
> 
> And i guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree about the Timmy-KG thing because my opinion is obvouisly wayy differnt then yours on the topic.


That's cool, different opinions is what makes for a good forum . But speaking of Timmy, That's the next team the Heat play, Spurs. vs. Heat on monday. That should be another good game.


----------



## Luke

Yeah it should be, Beasley had probobly his best pro game against the Spurs earlier this year, and while it was when Manu was out and it was the game that Parker got injured, it's still something to think about.

Wade will probobly go off again and Timmy will probobly dominate inside cause really, who's going to stop him?


----------



## myst

MAN, that was a sick game. WADE was dominating after his terrible start. The crowd was nuts, even though the arena wasn't too packed.


----------



## futuristxen

What's the ratoinale for putting Kobe above Lebron this year? Their teams have the same record, but Lebron has played better. His PER is 30 something. And Kobe is down in like the mid 20s no?

Paul, Wade, Howard, and Lebron have been the four best players this season.

If you're talking cumalitively for their entire careers, then I could see having Kobe at number 1, but just for this season, there's not a huge basis for that.


----------



## Luke

futuristxen said:


> What's the ratoinale for putting Kobe above Lebron this year? Their teams have the same record, but Lebron has played better. His PER is 30 something. And Kobe is down in like the mid 20s no?
> 
> Paul, Wade, Howard, and Lebron have been the four best players this season.
> 
> If you're talking cumalitively for their entire careers, then I could see having Kobe at number 1, but just for this season, there's not a huge basis for that.


Thats what i was trying to say, although i wouldn't put Paul and Howard above Kobe this year though, Paul's no where near as good on defense and scores alot less, the only real edges he has on Kobe are passing and stealing. Howard is one of my favorite players in the league, maybe my favorite non Laker but he still can't dominate offensivly enough to put him above Kobe IMO.


----------



## ChrisRichards

DQ for 3 said:


> ChrisRichards said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We retired #23 when Jordan retired, sorry LeBron, pick a new number. #13 was retired for Marino, so that's out too.
Click to expand...

\
I knew someone would bring that up. Believe me, if Riley has a chance to bring LeBron to Miami, Jordan's number will become available again ;p


To whoever asked why Riley retired jordan's number 

Because at the time, there was an idea around the league that everyone should retire MJ's number so nobody in the nba could ever use it again. Other than the Bulls, Riley/Heat were the only team to do it. 

I think #23 should be retired from the entire league though. Jordan deserves that honor.


----------



## 77AJ

D Wade and Kobe named NBA players of the month for December 

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/01/02/010209pom.release/


----------



## Luke

Hahaha i'm on ChrisRichards "i don't know what im talking about list" that is really ironic.

Anyway congrats to D Wade and Kobe, both are well deserved and hopefully they can both keep it up.


----------



## ChrisRichards

You believe Jordan's 72-10 Bulls were a product of a weaker league and that they couldn't do it again today. Your proof of that theory is that 95-96 season had 1 more 21-30 win team than last season.

Laugh out loud.

You behave well in this thread, but when Kobe or MJ is introduced into the discussion, your brain shuts off.


----------



## Luke

What are you talking about, I didn't say anything in that thread that discredited the Bulls, yes they were an absolutly terrific team, and by the way Kobe is in this discussion and i don't see " my brain shutting off" If the 96 Bulls were completly healthy then yes, they would have a great chance at going for 72 wins, their is alot of different variables that would play out in that, but those Bulls would be unquestionably the best team in todays league bar none.

Don't laugh at me when you clearly have no idea what your talking about.


----------



## ChrisRichards

anyway, LeBron needs to come to Miami. I know there is probably a huge chance he won't leave Cleveland because they are playing competitive ball now...

but ... lebron and wade are very good friends. It's possible


----------



## Pioneer10

I don't see either frankly ending up on the same team even though they are obviously friends. They have all the money in the world and while obviously they would win a lot of titles togther but considering there ages there is a very good chance that they'll be judged on how they do compared to each other like Bird vs Magic. I'm sure both want to go down as the very best of this era and they're not going to be able to prove that if they're on the same team.


----------



## Luke

Pioneer10 said:


> I don't see either frankly ending up on the same team even though they are obviously friends. They have all the money in the world and while obviously they would win a lot of titles togther but considering there ages there is a very good chance that they'll be judged on how they do compared to each other like Bird vs Magic. I'm sure both want to go down as the very best of this era and they're not going to be able to prove that if they're on the same team.


That's true and would Miami even have the cap space to sign Bron?


----------



## 77AJ

Michael Jordan is Kobe's, D Wades, and LeBron's daddy at this point in time. Let me give you MJ's list of awards and accomplishment's. And until either of these three great NBA stars do everything MJ did and up it by one, Then none of them will be greater then they myth, the legend, that is Air Jordan. Here I'll break it down MJ's story.

1981	Breaks record at McDonald's All-American game by scoring 30 points

1982	Scores winning points in NCAA championship game

1984	Named college Player of the Year

1984	Wins Olympic gold medal with U.S. basketball team

1985	Named NBA Rookie of the Year

1986-87	Named to the All-NBA First Team

1987	Winner, Slam Dunk Contest

1987-88 Named NBA Most Valuable Player

1987-88	Named NBA Defensive Player of the Year

1987-88	Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team

1987-88	Named to the All-NBA First Team

1988	Wins Slam Dunk Contest

1988	Named NBA Most Valuable Player

1988	Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player

1988-89	Named to the All-NBA First Team

1988-89	Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team

1989-90	Named to the All-NBA First Team

1989-90	Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team

1990-91	Named NBA Most Valuable Player

1990-91	Named to the All-NBA First Team

1990-91	Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team

1991	Leads Chicago Bulls to their first NBA title

1991-92	Named NBA Most Valuable Player

1991-92	Named to the All-NBA First Team

1991-92	Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team

1992	Wins Olympic gold medal with U.S. basketball team

1992-93	Named to the All-NBA First Team

1992-93	Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team

1995-96	Named NBA Most Valuable Player

1995-96	Named to the All-NBA First Team

1995-96	Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team

1996	Named one of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History

1996	Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player

1996-97	Named to the All-NBA First Team

1996-97	Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team

1997-98	Named NBA Most Valuable Player

1997-98	Named to the All-NBA First Team

1997-98	Named to the NBA All-Defensive First Team

1998	Named NBA All-Star Games Most Valuable Player

http://sports.jrank.org/pages/2394/Jordan-Michael-Awards-Accomplishments.html

These things posted up above are simply amazing. It's the reason guy's like LeBron wear number 23. Guy's like Garnett started the chalk thing, and then LeBron started to do because MJ did it. Bottom line, he was the best, and they know it. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery people, it's exactly why Kobe imaged his game after Michael Jordan. 

*Michael Jordan - Salt Lake Determination*

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=48607838


----------



## Pioneer10

Good for Jordan. It would have been fun to see him go against SG's who were as capable as Kobe and Wade during his era. Guys like Richmond, Drexler, and Miller were great but a step below Kobe and Wade (similar to how Jordan is a step above Kobe/Wade). His prime seemed to correlate more with a time of great of centers. 


**And before anyone thinks I'm knocking Jordan: I see him as clearly as the Goat and I am not saying Wade or Kobe are as good as him (at least the preretirement Jordan who was just awesome)


----------



## Luke

Well, that was sort of random but alright.

It's pretty obvious to any knowlagable fan that Kobe is not better then Jordan, but people act like it's an insult that Kobe is compared to him when it's really not. They are both top 15 or so players of all time, albeit Jordan is definalty top 2 while Kobe is at highest 15, they both excell at the same things. Kobe is basically a poor mans Jordan, there is nothing wrong with that considering that it makes him one of the best players in history that could go down as a top 10 player of all time, it's more of a testament to Jordan then a derailment to Kobe.

After Jordan retired the media was upsessed with the idea of "The New Jordan" and they were so much upsessed with getting the "next one" that players like VC Tmac and Kobe will never fully be apperciated. Out of all of these mini Jordans Kobe is the only one that you can actually played well enough to be compared with Jordan, to better then or equal to, but comparable. There is a problem with this though, with all of these elite swingmen being compared and critizied and being hyped up to be the next one is absolutly ridicoulous. Kobe Bryant among others ( I used Kobe's name because he is clearly the best out of this generation of Jordan clones) will be overlooked and underapperciated because of the unrealistic expectations that were set before them. I don't see why a player can't just be the first Vince, or the first Kobe, or the first Pierce, instead of constantly comparing them to old legends that 95% of them will never scratch the surface of what those guys accomplished.

Jordan set the tone for 90% of the swingmen in the NBA and they have all modeled their games after him, this new generations of " the next Jordan" including Wade Lebron ect. arn't as bad because the only one hyped up to be Jordan is Lebron, which i think is really stupid considering they have completly different strengths and weaknesses, and don't even play like eachother so that comparison just goes out the window.

I don't think that ESPN ect. are getting it though, because apparently there is going to be multiple Kobe's in the league in a few years, ( Mayo, Dezoron sp? was compared to him for a while) and i just think that the media needs to chill out and just start enjoying these players for who they are, because we may not ever see another Kobe or Lebron ever again.


----------



## ChrisRichards

how did this turn into another mj kobe thread?

damnit 23aj


----------



## Luke

It's more of just a Jordan thread.


----------



## Cap

VanillaPrice said:


> Well, that was sort of random but alright.
> 
> It's pretty obvious to any knowlagable fan that Kobe is not better then Jordan, but people act like it's an insult that Kobe is compared to him when it's really not. They are both top 15 or so players of all time, albeit Jordan is definalty top 2 while Kobe is at highest 15, they both excell at the same things. Kobe is basically a poor mans Jordan, there is nothing wrong with that considering that it makes him one of the best players in history that could go down as a top 10 player of all time, it's more of a testament to Jordan then a derailment to Kobe.
> 
> After Jordan retired the media was upsessed with the idea of "The New Jordan" and they were so much upsessed with getting the "next one" that players like VC Tmac and Kobe will never fully be apperciated. Out of all of these mini Jordans Kobe is the only one that you can actually played well enough to be compared with Jordan, to better then or equal to, but comparable. There is a problem with this though, with all of these elite swingmen being compared and critizied and being hyped up to be the next one is absolutly ridicoulous. Kobe Bryant among others ( I used Kobe's name because he is clearly the best out of this generation of Jordan clones) will be overlooked and underapperciated because of the unrealistic expectations that were set before them. I don't see why a player can't just be the first Vince, or the first Kobe, or the first Pierce, instead of constantly comparing them to old legends that 95% of them will never scratch the surface of what those guys accomplished.
> 
> Jordan set the tone for 90% of the swingmen in the NBA and they have all modeled their games after him, this new generations of " the next Jordan" including Wade Lebron ect. arn't as bad because the only one hyped up to be Jordan is Lebron, which i think is really stupid considering they have completly different strengths and weaknesses, and don't even play like eachother so that comparison just goes out the window.
> 
> I don't think that ESPN ect. are getting it though, because apparently there is going to be multiple Kobe's in the league in a few years, ( Mayo, Dezoron sp? was compared to him for a while) and i just think that the media needs to chill out and just start enjoying these players for who they are, because we may not ever see another Kobe or Lebron ever again.


Great post, agreed on all points.


----------



## Cap

Btw, it's got to feel a little, well, emasculating to see Jordan's # retired in the _Miami Heat's_ building if you're a Heat fan. I feel for you guys (minus the reject Heat fan wandering around somewhere here), but at least you've got Wade. And Riley, actually, never hurts to have a sharp guy like that around.


----------



## myst

EHL said:


> Btw, it's got to feel a little, well, emasculating to see Jordan's # retired in the _Miami Heat's_ building if you're a Heat fan. I feel for you guys (minus the reject Heat fan wandering around somewhere here), but at least you've got Wade. And Riley, actually, never hurts to have a sharp guy like that around.


I was in the AAA today and I was looking for it, but I didn't see it. So I don't think it is actually hanging there. I know we also retired 13 for Marino but his jersey wasn't there either.


----------



## Cap

myst said:


> I was in the AAA today and I was looking for it, but I didn't see it. So I don't think it is actually hanging there. I know we also retired 13 for Marino but his jersey wasn't there either.


Ah, then it was a token gesture perhaps. Either way, I think it's bad form. Maybe there's a case for other sports, but not the same one, what does that tell Heat players?


----------



## ChrisRichards

myst said:


> I was in the AAA today and I was looking for it, but I didn't see it. So I don't think it is actually hanging there. I know we also retired 13 for Marino but his jersey wasn't there either.


It was hidden in the back. Maybe it's still there. I think the whole league should retire MJ's number, but since that didn't happen, Riley should remove it.


----------



## myst

http://thenetsinsider.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/01/wade_haunts_the_nets_in_new_je.html


----------



## 77AJ

VanillaPrice said:


> Well, that was sort of random but alright.
> 
> It's pretty obvious to any knowlagable fan that Kobe is not better then Jordan, but people act like it's an insult that Kobe is compared to him when it's really not. They are both top 15 or so players of all time, albeit Jordan is definalty top 2 while Kobe is at highest 15, they both excell at the same things. Kobe is basically a poor mans Jordan, there is nothing wrong with that considering that it makes him one of the best players in history that could go down as a top 10 player of all time, it's more of a testament to Jordan then a derailment to Kobe.
> 
> After Jordan retired the media was upsessed with the idea of "The New Jordan" and they were so much upsessed with getting the "next one" that players like VC Tmac and Kobe will never fully be apperciated. Out of all of these mini Jordans Kobe is the only one that you can actually played well enough to be compared with Jordan, to better then or equal to, but comparable. There is a problem with this though, with all of these elite swingmen being compared and critizied and being hyped up to be the next one is absolutly ridicoulous. Kobe Bryant among others ( I used Kobe's name because he is clearly the best out of this generation of Jordan clones) will be overlooked and underapperciated because of the unrealistic expectations that were set before them. I don't see why a player can't just be the first Vince, or the first Kobe, or the first Pierce, instead of constantly comparing them to old legends that 95% of them will never scratch the surface of what those guys accomplished.
> 
> Jordan set the tone for 90% of the swingmen in the NBA and they have all modeled their games after him, this new generations of " the next Jordan" including Wade Lebron ect. arn't as bad because the only one hyped up to be Jordan is Lebron, which i think is really stupid considering they have completly different strengths and weaknesses, and don't even play like eachother so that comparison just goes out the window.
> 
> I don't think that ESPN ect. are getting it though, because apparently there is going to be multiple Kobe's in the league in a few years, ( Mayo, Dezoron sp? was compared to him for a while) and i just think that the media needs to chill out and just start enjoying these players for who they are, because we may not ever see another Kobe or Lebron ever again.


Good points, but that's not going to end, and it's not Michael Jordan's fault he was so spectacular and people want more or better!

Like I've said many times before, some players will exceed Jordan in some aspects of the game, but no one will ever break as much ground as he did. Jordan is truly timely, and a superstar that went beyond all expectations of him coming out of college. 

Jordan was also continued to be compared to the DR. J's and etc highy flying scorers that came before him in the league. MJ's game obviously evolved so much that High flying/scorer was just one aspect of his game. That he made the Jordan name it's own, the number 23 it's own etc but in the beginning he was compared to the great player's before him. That will never stop. When Kobe hang's them up, people will look for the next Kobe. When LeBron hangs them up, people will look for the next LeBron. But someone sets the gold standard, and at this point that's still MJ, and more than likely always will be. 

However because I listed MJ's awards/achievements, is in no way a slap in the face to Kobe/Wade/Bron. Actually it gives them something to inspire them. And I think Kobe/LBJ/Wade view MJ in a positive light, and a great piece of basketball history they them selves would love to achieve. It seems fans are more bitter of the greatness and the long lasting effect it has had on the game, as far as judging great players of generations to comes and past.

With that said, great comments guy's and I totally respect all your opinions and views. May I raise my glass of orange Juice and toast to you all good health, a happy new year, and to a great 08-09 NBA season!!


----------



## ChrisRichards

Nobody will ever be able to surpass Jordan. They can only aspire to equal him.


----------



## sknydave

The jersey has definitely been up there. I haven't looked for it or anything, so I can't say whether or not it's since been moved or removed


----------



## Brandname

EHL said:


> Btw, it's got to feel a little, well, emasculating to see Jordan's # retired in the _Miami Heat's_ building if you're a Heat fan. I feel for you guys (minus the reject Heat fan wandering around somewhere here), but at least you've got Wade. And Riley, actually, never hurts to have a sharp guy like that around.


Yeah, that's why I said it was weird earlier. Of course, I think retiring any player's jersey league wide is dumb.


----------



## Luke

I'm definatly with Brandname and EHL on this one, the entire league retiring Jordan's jersey is retarted.


----------



## Dee-Zy

Well apparently, we aren't talking about Wade enough here.. I figured I should raise this from the grave then 

Another amazing performance by Dwade against Sacto.

My only problem is that Wade is shooting under 50%FG. I think he can do 50%. His freethrow needs to improve as well. If Bron got his up, Wade can't salck.


----------



## ChrisRichards

did you guys see the HEAT down by 2 with like 20 seconds left and Wade steal the ball from Kobe and pass it ahead to haslem for the dunk? sweet

then Wade no look rocket pass from inbounds to Cook for the 3 at end of game


only reason lakers won is cause they have 2 big 7 footers down there and they killed us on the offensive rebounds


----------



## 77AJ

ChrisRichards said:


> did you guys see the HEAT down by 2 with like 20 seconds left and Wade steal the ball from Kobe and pass it ahead to haslem for the dunk? sweet
> 
> then Wade no look rocket pass from inbounds to Cook for the 3 at end of game
> 
> 
> only reason lakers won is cause they have 2 big 7 footers down there and they killed us on the offensive rebounds


Yeah D Wade definitely had some epic plays in this game, and in crunch time Wade has been spectacular this season.


----------



## ChrisRichards

when has he not been lol

wade's whole life he's been spectacular in the crunch time.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

this is Kobe's finest defensive job this season so far, he held wade to 5-14 shooting, 13 points and 0 points allowed in the 4th. wade's got on his offensive attack in the fourth when phil sat kobe to start the fourth and placed vujacic and ariza on him.


----------



## myst

aznzen said:


> this is Kobe's finest defensive job this season so far, he held wade to 5-14 shooting, 13 points and 0 points allowed in the 4th. wade's got on his offensive attack in the fourth when phil sat kobe to start the fourth and placed vujacic and ariza on him.


Kobe shot 5-14. Wade shot 10-22 and had 27 points.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

Wade is just a beast. If you don't shade 3 guys on him he will be in the lane every play. 

His first step is RIDICULOUS. Even though the Heat lost, I thought he played a great game on both sides of the floor. 

Beasley was looking nice too at the end - at least on offense. He needs to diversify his game a bit though, he's kind of a black hole / chucker.


----------



## ChrisRichards

the HEAT are bringing Beasley along nice and slow. they have him working very hard. 

i bet if he went to a really bad team, he would have been throwin into a starting lineup and be putting up 22 ppg, though he would develop bad habits and avoid playing defense. him and mayo are the most talented scorer of their class.


anyway, if Heat had a ANY 7 footer who can rebound and play some D, the heat would have won this game. wade outplayed everyone hands down, as usual.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

myst said:


> Kobe shot 5-14. Wade shot 10-22 and had 27 points.


nah, read what i said. wade was 5-14 when kobe was guarding him. wade was even scoreless in the 4th after kobe went in (8 minute mark)pls take note.


wade got hot, thus you see their 15-4 scoring run after he burned vujacic and ariza in the first 4 minutes or so in the fourth while kobe was resting.


----------



## ChrisRichards

wade played amazing D. 2 blocks and 2 steals

one of those a fine steal on kobe to tie the game with 20 somethin secs left. wade was deferring to teammates in the 4th due to double coverage.

beasley shone in the 4th.


----------



## myst

aznzen said:


> nah, read what i said. wade was 5-14 when kobe was guarding him. wade was even scoreless in the 4th after kobe went in (8 minute mark)pls take note.
> 
> 
> wade got hot, thus you see their 15-4 scoring run after he burned vujacic and ariza in the first 4 minutes or so in the fourth while kobe was resting.


Where did you get the 5-14 stat while Kobe was guarding him? And what was Kobe while Wade was guarding him? Stats go both ways.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

myst said:


> Where did you get the 5-14 stat while Kobe was guarding him? And what was Kobe while Wade was guarding him? Stats go both ways.


check play by play in nba.com/box score.


----------



## Cap

^ Bryant missed most of his shots on Marion, who he usually torches. To be fair, Kobe wasn't even looking to score tonight. He facilitated too much, which he has to do more now that Odom, Walton, and Farmar (all facilitators on and off the bench) are down with injury. Kobe has never liked doing PG duties too often, he's a scorer.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

EHL said:


> ^ Bryant missed most of his shots on Marion, who he usually torches. To be fair, Kobe wasn't even looking to score tonight. He facilitated too much, which he has to do more now that Odom, Walton, and Farmar (all facilitators on and off the bench) are down with injury. Kobe has never liked doing PG duties too often, he's a scorer.


exactly. kobe was just looking to facilitate. just like i said in the other thread, i think he was trying to duplicate his 13 assist night against the pacers and like you said most of their facilitators were out (walton,farma and odom). only problem was his main target missed a few easy ones (4-15 fg) and sasha, and radmanovic also missed some wide open ones.


stu lantz even said the same thing.


----------



## DNKO

VanillaPrice said:


> I'm definatly with Brandname and EHL on this one, the entire league retiring Jordan's jersey is retarted.


And why is that?

Wouldn't it be nice to show that kind of gratification to him?

Who brought NBA to Europe, Asia, Australia? Bird & Magic unlocked the doors, Jordan smashed them down.

He was the world's second most recognizable face, behind Pope John Paul II. He was estimated to generate roughly around 10 billion dollars to US economy. And that's an esitmate from 1998. So weigh in the inflation to translate that to today's dollars.

You don't think he did a little bit of favor to the NBA? NBA logo was made after one specific player, so why would this be so scandalous?

But I hope they actually don't do it, I think he does deserve it, but there are many bitter haters of him nowadays and that gesture would make the hate even bigger so let's just leave his number in Chicago and Miami.


----------



## hendrix2430

Wow, lakers with another close win. Their record is off the hook, but their wins haven't been all that impressive to be honest. Not a pure domination like earlier in the season.But hey the record's there so...


----------



## Cap

That's a valid point, the victory margin has been poor for a few games, and the lack of depth with Farmar, Walton, and Odom out is part of the problem (though only partially). The perimeter D has been absolutely atrocious with Fisher and Sasha getting big minutes at the 1 and Radman generally getting more minutes now that he's the starter by default. Kobe has been great defensively off and on recently, was fantastic tonight holding Wade to 5-14 in 35 minutes (Wade went 5-8 in just 3 minutes outside of that, sadly enough). Ariza usually isn't that bad, but has been poor lately. All in all, Kurt Rambis needs to be booted.


----------



## myst

EHL said:


> ^ Bryant missed most of his shots on Marion, who he usually torches. To be fair, Kobe wasn't even looking to score tonight. He facilitated too much, which he has to do more now that Odom, Walton, and Farmar (all facilitators on and off the bench) are down with injury. Kobe has never liked doing PG duties too often, he's a scorer.


To be fair? A Laker fan says Kobe shut down Wade (even though Wade scored more points on a better percentage then Kobe). But to be fair, Kobe wasn't even looking for his shot? How about you guys actually keep it fair and say Kobe didn't shut down Wade, and Wade didn't shut down Kobe (even though he only made 5 shots).


----------



## Dee-Zy

I watched the game and as much as I enjoyed seeing, for once, Wade on Kobe and Kobe on Wade. It's true that Kobe wasn't trying to score at all in the first half.. He had like what... 3 shots attempt by the first half and 1 in the first quarter? That kinda sucked.

The defensive job Kobe did on Wade wasn't all that great either but it was great off the ball.

then in the second half, IIR Kobe and Wade played a lot when the other wasn't on the court and in the 4th quarter, neither was guarding each other until the last minutes of the game.

Great game overall. Too bad Cook didn't get that foul called on the last shot. As a Heat fan, I was really glad that the game was that close despite our lack of size. We were playing Haslem, Mags, Marion, Beasley and Joel (should I add quinn? lol) on Pau and Bynum.


----------



## kflo

DNKO said:


> And why is that?
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice to show that kind of gratification to him?
> 
> Who brought NBA to Europe, Asia, Australia? Bird & Magic unlocked the doors, Jordan smashed them down.
> 
> He was the world's second most recognizable face, behind Pope John Paul II. He was estimated to generate roughly around 10 billion dollars to US economy. And that's an esitmate from 1998. So weigh in the inflation to translate that to today's dollars.
> 
> You don't think he did a little bit of favor to the NBA? NBA logo was made after one specific player, so why would this be so scandalous?
> 
> But I hope they actually don't do it, I think he does deserve it, but there are many bitter haters of him nowadays and that gesture would make the hate even bigger so let's just leave his number in Chicago and Miami.


jordan played the game, and made commercials. 

the nba brought the game to the global market. in large part marketed around jordan, but it's not like jordan was pounding the pavement in indonesia saying look at me. he wasn't smashing down doors, he was playing the game (at an exceptionally high level).

it just seems absurd to me to think that the knicks (or other rivals) would have michael jordan's jersey retired. that's not hating on jordan. you can think the guy was the best ever and not want his jersey flying in your arena's rafters.


----------



## Luke

DNKO said:


> And why is that?
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice to show that kind of gratification to him?
> 
> Who brought NBA to Europe, Asia, Australia? Bird & Magic unlocked the doors, Jordan smashed them down.
> 
> He was the world's second most recognizable face, behind Pope John Paul II. He was estimated to generate roughly around 10 billion dollars to US economy. And that's an esitmate from 1998. So weigh in the inflation to translate that to today's dollars.
> 
> You don't think he did a little bit of favor to the NBA? NBA logo was made after one specific player, so why would this be so scandalous?
> 
> But I hope they actually don't do it, I think he does deserve it, but there are many bitter haters of him nowadays and that gesture would make the hate even bigger so let's just leave his number in Chicago and Miami.



Ok, sweet he did alot of things for the league, and he gets his props for that, but retiring a players number who never played for you and crushed many of your fans dreams is retarted.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Wade tonight saves the game by blocking the last shot

Wade went 31 pts, 3 rebounds, 8 assists, 3 steals, *3 blocks*


----------



## JerryWest

DNKO said:


> And why is that?
> Who brought NBA to Europe, Asia, Australia?


Nike did.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

the league owed mj a lot but retiring his jersey for every nba team is indeed a bit reaching.


----------



## Pioneer10

Kobe took 32 shots to get 33 points: that is not a good game last basket or not


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

thats why you see my ninja edit


----------



## ChrisRichards

KennethTo said:


> Nike did.


and who made Nike?

Jordan

anyway, Wade with another amazing game. He is averaging more blocks than a lot of big men lol WHILE leading the nba in scoring and being among league leaders in steals


----------



## Pioneer10

aznzen said:


> thats why you see my ninja edit


pretty weak move there


----------



## sonicFLAME6

ChrisRichards said:


> *and who made Nike?
> 
> Jordan*
> 
> anyway, Wade with another amazing game. He is averaging more blocks than a lot of big men lol WHILE leading the nba in scoring and being among league leaders in steals


lmao


----------



## Cap

^ I'm telling you man, public education is down in the farking dumps in some states.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

I don't understand how anyone can make statements like that. I'm speechless right now.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

who made converse?


dwyane wade



:lol:


----------



## Diable

Blue ribbon Sports(now Nike) was founded in 1964 by Oregon track coach Bill Bowerman and Phil Knight.Michael Jordan was an itty bitty baby at the time.He is a major shareholder,although I think he may have come to some settlement with them when he started his own brand which is somehow related to Nike....Maybe Jordan made that somehow.


----------



## Chan Ho Nam

amazing this thread went to 40

all debate about wade vs kobe i guess right and some game thread posting in the middle


----------



## Ben

ChrisRichards said:


> and who made Nike?
> 
> Jordan


:frenchy:


----------



## JT

Pioneer10 said:


> Kobe took 32 shots to get 33 points: that is not a good game last basket or not


maybe its not a good game for those who like to chart, compare and contrast shooting percentages, or player efficiency ratings...but he made the shots when they were needed, and as a direct result: the Lakers got the win. that's all that matters.


----------



## kflo

sherako said:


> maybe its not a good game for those who like to chart, compare and contrast shooting percentages, or player efficiency ratings...but he made the shots when they were needed, and as a direct result: the Lakers got the win. that's all that matters.


at the end of the day, offensive and defensive efficiency is what wins games. 

not a great game for kobe, but good enough.


----------



## JT

kflo said:


> at the end of the day, offensive and defensive efficiency is what wins games.


that's really a tacit conclusion for anyone who has been watching for a few weeks even, but alright.



> not a great game for kobe, but good enough.


first three quarters, attack battier to show him that he can't guard you (with minimal results). 4th quarter, scrap all of that and go into winning mode. nobody does it better.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

No one said anything on Wades 41pt 42%fg shooting performance the other day, because he was so efficient from the ft line. Wade does what he needs for his team to win and so does Kobe. We all know these guys are volume shooters and they are not always going to shoot 46%+.
Overall, it was a decent game for Kobe. He missed a lot of easy buckets, he had V.Wafer on him most of the game lol. And in the clutch he hit shots over Battier to secure the win. Gasol did not show up. Farmar/Sasha/Luke are all out and Lamar is getting less minutes coming from his injury.
We all know that even if Kobe is not hot he will keep putting up shots. It's the mentality of working on your game being in the gym and missing 5-6 shots in a row and then getting hot and making a whole bunch.


----------



## Pioneer10

sherako said:


> maybe its not a good game for those who like to chart, compare and contrast shooting percentages, or player efficiency ratings...but he made the shots when they were needed, and as a direct result: the Lakers got the win. that's all that matters.


Every shot is valuable at any point of the game: if only the last minute counted then Shaq would be one of the most mediocre centers of all time and not the greatest.


----------



## Luke

Pioneer10 said:


> Every shot is valuable at any point of the game: if only the last minute counted then Shaq would be one of the most mediocre centers of all time and not the greatest.


I don't think anyone honestly thinks that Shaq is the greatest center of all time.


----------



## rayz789

ChrisRichards said:


> Wade tonight saves the game by blocking the last shot
> 
> Wade went 31 pts, 3 rebounds, 8 assists, 3 steals, *3 blocks*


I thought Foyle was fouled by Wade on the 3 point line in that last play but of course the ref will let that go cause it's Wade.


----------



## ChrisRichards

I thought Miami Heat's Daequan Cook was fouled on the 3 point line in the last play vs Lakers but of course the ref will let that go cause it's Wa....oops. 

There goes your theory


----------



## ChrisRichards

S2theONIC said:


> I don't understand how anyone can make statements like that. I'm speechless right now.


You need to brush up on your Nike history.


1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike,_Inc.

Besides Prefontaine, Nike has sponsored many other successful track & field athletes over the years such as Carl Lewis, Jackie Joyner-Kersee and Sebastian Coe. *However, it was the signing of basketball player Michael Jordan in 1984, with his subsequent promotion of Nike over the course of his storied career with Spike Lee as Mars Blackmon, that proved to be one of the biggest boosts to Nike's publicity and sales.*

2) http://shoes.about.com/od/athleticshoes/a/nike.htm

In 1980, Nike went public.

*The year 1984 saw the signing of basketball megastar Michael Jordan to an endorsement contract, followed by the 1985 release of his signature shoe, the Air Jordan. Originally, the NBA banned this new shoe because it didn't match the league's dress code, but the ban simply served to give the design a higher profile and extensive publicity.*

*Nike revenues topped $1 billion for the first time in 1986. The rest, as they say, is history. *

-------------------------


3) http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0228/p11s01-ussc.html

Nike owes much to the high-flying Jordan. By 1985 Converse had won a cult following for its canvas-sided Chuck Taylor All Stars. But these new Nikes - high-topped and a little clunky in leather, often in Chicago Bulls red and black - swiftly became the wider youth market's first must-have pair of kicks. Urban youths, in particular, clamored for a chance to be like Mike in the $100 shoes, and sometimes clashed over pairs.

-----------------------------

4) http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23071595/

“The thing is, I never wore Nike shoes until I signed that Nike contract,” said Jordan. *“All through college we wore Converse. And up to that point, my favorite shoe was an Adidas shoe.”*

It was Nike’s basketball talent scout, Sonny Vaccaro, who convinced insiders that they should spend everything they had.

*“I said, ‘Well, what do we have?’” Vacarro said. “And (they said) ‘We have about $500,000 to spend.’ And I said, ‘Well, give all to the kid. Give it all to Jordan.’ And they said, ‘Well, we don’t have to give all of it, we’ll give...’ I said, “No, if it takes giving him all, give it to Michael Jordan.’”*

So Nike made the half-million-dollar bet. At the time, it was an unheard of price for an endorsement deal, especially for someone who had yet to play a minute in the NBA. 

-------------------------------------


Yeah. Jordan made Nike what they are today. It is because of Jordan that Nike dominates the market today.


You know what I find really detestable? When people who don't know what they are talking about open their mouths and make fun of those who DO know what they are talking about. *It's one thing to disagree with me and tell me you think I am wrong, but another thing entirely to just make fun of someone* On top of that, you were WRONG so it makes you look even WORSE.


----------



## ChrisRichards

I come with the smackdown once again.


----------



## Luke

^ Well considering you've never "smacked down" anyone before and you certainly didn't do it right there using wikipedia as your reference, i'm starting to wondor if you even read your own posts or if you just kind of drift in and out.


----------



## ChrisRichards

4 references, 1 of them is wiki. so if you don't like that one, check the others, smart guy.

I have smacked EHL and several of you laker trolls over and over again. Now S2theOnic and EHL got smacked once again.


and apparently *You are just trolling now because you didn't even read the post.* 

Jordan made Nike what they are today. No denying that. GO back to your hole until you want to show me some respect. You know I am right.


----------



## Luke

Wow, are you honestly saying that Jordan made a company that didn't even have anything to do with him after 5 years of being a company. Jordan defiantly helped them and helpped make them the Icon that they are today, but if I was a betting man i'd say Nike would be doing just fine with or without him.

I love how every single Laker fan is a "troll" to you, but even Heat fans dislike you and never agree with you, so seeing that no one else on this board shows you the tiniest bit of respect, I think that i'm going to have to pass.

Oh and by the way, you definatly didn't "smack down" EHL, you may think you did because you believe that you can't be wrong, no matter what the situation is. I have replied to you in plently of threads totally engaging you in an arguement but the second I or anyone else starts winning, you either bolt or completly ignore us.


----------



## ChrisRichards

read the sources.

Nike owes almost everything to Michael Jordan. Read. The. Articles. A way of saying that is "He made them what they are today"

Thus my line "And who made Nike? Jordan" because Jordan made them what they are today.

Wasting my time with you


----------



## Luke

Just because Jordan contributed to Nike's development as a company doesn't mean Nike owes everything to him, it means that he was a big contributer.

Oh and I like how you ignore the rest of my post just to talk about your boytoy crush Micheal.


----------



## ChrisRichards

zzzzz


----------



## Luke

And that is exactly why absolutly nobody on these boards takes you even somewhat seriously.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Still posting? Zzzzz. Go to bed, past your bedtime


----------



## Basel

Stop with the personal attacks, and stay on topic.


----------



## Luke

K Basel, I edited my post.


Anyway, anyone catch that Kobe three the other night, insane, just goes to show that he's still the best closer in the game.

Definatly still number 2 in the MVP race behind Bron though.


----------



## ChrisRichards

VanillaPrice said:


> Hopefully in your dream you follow a team that has more then one championship.





Basel said:


> Stop with the personal attacks, and stay on topic.


Follow the rules, Vanilla


ON TOPIC : 

Wade had a huge game last night. I am still amazed at how Wade is averaging those blocks and getting them over and over. Last night with -3- blocks.


----------



## Luke

My list as of now

Lebron
Kobe
Dwight
Paul
Wade

Wade might have been higher but the gay 50 win thing is going to make it impossible for him to get any serious consideration


----------



## sonicFLAME6

Wade has definitely earned my respect and I IMO is back in the mix to be considered one of the best in the league once again.
I still have him behind Howard at a respectable top 6
1.Lebron
2.Kobe
3.Duncan
4.CP
5.Howard


----------



## 77AJ

ChrisRichards said:


> Follow the rules, Vanilla
> 
> 
> ON TOPIC :
> 
> Wade had a huge game last night. I am still amazed at how Wade is averaging those blocks and getting them over and over. Last night with -3- blocks.


D Wade has been the most consistent perimeter defender all season IMO. I would only take Ron Artest, Luc Mbah a Moute, and Andrei Kirilenko over him this season. Great stuff by D Wade.

Appreciate Greatness!!


----------



## Ras

23AJ said:


> D Wade has been the most consistent perimeter defender all season IMO. I would only take Ron Artest, Luc Mbah a Moute, and Andrei Kirilenko over him this season. Great stuff by D Wade.
> 
> Appreciate Greatness!!


No LeBron? Blocks and steals don't necessarily make you a great defender. That's not to say he doesn't play good man defense, but I've heard LeBron plays some damn good man defense himself. You never seem to show the man his due.

I'm not saying Wade is better or worse, I'm just saying show LeBron some respect too, because you never seem to.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

What is MIL doing defensively against Wade? This is 2 games now he has struggled real bad against them. 

Tonight he shot 5-19 and last time he played MIL he shot 5-16 :whoknows:

Big win for Miami tonight though cause they are only a few games back of the 4 seed.


----------



## Ras

I want to clarify, I didn't mean to pick sides or anything; I think overall there was just a lot of disrespect going on from a lot of different parties. We can disagree without resorting to insults.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Benedict_Boozer said:


> What is MIL doing defensively against Wade? This is 2 games now he has struggled real bad against them.
> 
> Tonight he shot 5-19 and last time he played MIL he shot 5-16 :whoknows:
> 
> Big win for Miami tonight though cause they are only a few games back of the 4 seed.


to be honest, I am not sure. That turnover at the end by Wade was kinda ugly. Mbah Mute or whatever his name is took it.

I am not sure. Also, I am beginning to get suspicious that Wade and Coach Spoelstra have a little bit of a problem lately.


----------



## 77AJ

Benedict_Boozer said:


> What is MIL doing defensively against Wade? This is 2 games now he has struggled real bad against them.
> 
> Tonight he shot 5-19 and last time he played MIL he shot 5-16 :whoknows:
> 
> Big win for Miami tonight though cause they are only a few games back of the 4 seed.


The Bucks are one of the most sound coached defensive teams in the NBA. Give Scott Skiles his due, the guy creates some of the best defensive walls in the NBA when dealing with a driving first scorer like D Wade is. PLUS Right now there is a guy for the Bucks named Luc Mbah a Moute who will no doubt in my mind win a couple of DPOTY Awards. I saw him lock up D Wade, Kobe Bryant, and LeBron James one on one. Nobody does that with out help against those 3 players, this guy did it, and is only a rookie. He has the speed and strength plus defensive discipline that would make Gregg Popoavich and Tim Duncan trade Bowen for him in an instance. He's truly that good on D.


----------



## Brandname

Ras said:


> No LeBron?


lol, is that a rhetorical question?


----------



## 77AJ

Brandname said:


> lol, is that a rhetorical question?


Must be considering I'm not going to engage a guy who's soul purpose when directing any comments my way is about LBJ. It's obvious he disagrees with my assertions, but did he offer anything of substance to explain why my choices were not respectable. Of course not. His entire post is more about me than it was about LBJ. 

Interesting enough though you jump on the bandwagon of such a post by the previous poster. Where at least I take the high road and stay away form petty arguments. And it now seems obvious to me I will need to ignore you as well on this site as I can see you are no different.

And for the rest of the forum I will say this, read my posts in regards to LBJ in the thread where the Cavs vs. Celtics in the NBA forum. My posts say enough about me giving anyone their due.


----------



## Brandname

23AJ said:


> Must be considering I'm not going to engage a guy who's soul purpose when directing any comments my way is about LBJ. It's obvious he disagrees with my assertions, but did he offer anything of substance to explain why my choices were not respectable. Of course not. His entire post is more about me than it was about LBJ.
> 
> Interesting enough though you jump on the bandwagon of such a post by the previous poster. Where at least I take the high road and stay away form petty arguments. And it now seems obvious to me I will need to ignore you as well on this site as I can see you are no different.
> 
> And for the rest of the forum I will say this, read my posts in regards to LBJ in the thread where the Cavs vs. Celtics in the NBA forum. My posts say enough about me giving anyone their due.


Of course. You always take the high road. 

You are, in fact, a fan of the game.


----------



## 77AJ

Brandname said:


> Of course. You always take the high road.
> 
> You are, in fact, a fan of the game.


Insults continue by a moderator on this forum. Surprise anyone ? Anyway welcome to ignore.


----------



## Dee-Zy

I think it has a lot more to do with Scott Skiles than the Bucks


----------



## Brandname

23AJ said:


> Insults continue by a moderator on this forum. Surprise anyone ? Anyway welcome to ignore.


I'm not a moderator, and I didn't insult you. But wow, that was a lot of failure in one line.


----------



## 77AJ

Dee-Zy said:


> I think it has a lot more to do with Scott Skiles than the Bucks


Very astute post. A lot of it is. Scott Skiles did a good job designing defenses against D Wade when he was the coach of the Bulls as well.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Wade didn't have such a good game tonight. 17 pts, 13 assists, 3 rebs, 2 stls.


----------



## 77AJ

ChrisRichards said:


> Wade didn't have such a good game tonight. 17 pts, 13 assists, 3 rebs, 2 stls.


Nope not really. But boy he sure knows how to pass the rock. Heat got a little win streak going again. They have been a fun team to watch this season.


----------



## 77AJ

After watching this season, I must say it's realistic that the Heat could end up with the 4th best record in the East. The Heat seem to have more of an identity than the Hawks and Pistons this season.


----------



## SoCalfan21

Kobe is lightyears ahead of Wade... and so is Lebron...


----------



## Piolo_Pascual

nah. wade is right there with them. he just needs a whole lot more help.


----------



## Pioneer10

SoCalfan21 said:


> Kobe is lightyears ahead of Wade... and so is Lebron...


umm ok


----------



## 77AJ

ChrisRichards said:


> Wade didn't have such a good game tonight. 17 pts, 13 assists, 3 rebs, 2 stls.


The Bucks are 9th in defense in the NBA so far this season.

Pretty amazing turn around from last season when they were 27th in defense in the NBA.


----------



## Ras

23AJ said:


> Must be considering I'm not going to engage a guy who's soul purpose when directing any comments my way is about LBJ. It's obvious he disagrees with my assertions, but did he offer anything of substance to explain why my choices were not respectable. Of course not. His entire post is more about me than it was about LBJ.
> 
> Interesting enough though you jump on the bandwagon of such a post by the previous poster. Where at least I take the high road and stay away form petty arguments. And it now seems obvious to me I will need to ignore you as well on this site as I can see you are no different.
> 
> And for the rest of the forum I will say this, read my posts in regards to LBJ in the thread where the Cavs vs. Celtics in the NBA forum. My posts say enough about me giving anyone their due.


How did I present petty arguments? I've only ever really asked you one question, in multiple threads actually, and I only wanted your thoughts: what has Wade done individually put him above LeBron? I've been polite, and I haven't been insulting. I'm just asking a question. How am I petty? Did I come off that uncivil? The only reason my posts to you generally are about LBJ is because I'm just curious why you keep saying Wade has been better individually. All I've ever wanted is a response, and you haven't quite shown me that courtesy. 

And you say I didn't post any reasons why I disagree, but, well, I did. I said blocks and steals don't necessarily make Wade a better defender (especially when there averages are more or less the same), and that LeBron plays good man defense himself.


----------



## Ben

SoCalfan21 said:


> Kobe is lightyears ahead of Wade... and so is Lebron...


Just no. 

I agree they are better, but by millimeters, not lightyears.


----------



## Luke

QUOTE=Brandname;5825122]Of course. You always take the high road. 

You are, in fact, a fan of the game.[/QUOTE]

:lol::lol:


----------



## SoCalfan21

Pioneer10 said:


> umm ok


It really isn't Kobe's fault LeBron can't win on the road and last time I checked most players polled in the NBA would want the ball in Kobe's hands in the 4th quarter...why is that you think? 

He jus has that killer instinct in that 4th quarter and could bring a team back from down 6-8 points in the last 3 minutes of the game. 

LeBron is really jus a big guy who can take it to the basket. His jump shooting is terrible and on top of all of this he should be averaging 40 points a game with how easily he could use his size to get to the basket. I don't understand why he shoots the ball so much from the perimeter...


----------



## SoCalfan21

Mr. Badger said:


> Just no.
> 
> I agree they are better, but by millimeters, not lightyears.


Man... its a shame how Kobe gets downplayed so much in the media and in turn gets downplayed by fans because of how accustom to Kobe's greatness some are.

At first Kobe was compared to Vince Carter... then T Mac... then Wade... then LeBron. 

Sorry but LeBron is basically a Marketing poster boy. All those stupid commericals with him throwing the chalk up in the air. Why do you think he does this during the games? HE had a WIZARDS rep go back to DC to get the Wizards alternate jerseys so they could change the color of their jerseys....because the jerseys the Cavs were going to wear for the game didn't match his new shoes... really? Maybe when LeBron starts to mature up Ill start to treat him as a great player he is. 

end LeBron rant. 




Now as for Wade being the best player in the NBA? Absolutely not. Last time I checked Kobe doesn't need to take years off between seasons being good. It is silly arguing who is the best player in the NBA and as I stated before its a shame more fans don't appreciate the type of talent and athlete Kobe is.


----------



## SoCalfan21

OMGBaselRocks! said:


> nah. wade is right there with them. he just needs a whole lot more help.


His team is a solid team... Haslem, Cook, Chalmers, Jermaine O'Neal....that team could win 45- 50 games.. which they could do this season... 


Remember Kobe won 48 games with the likes of Kwame Brown, Smush Parker and Chris Mihm as starters. Lamar Odom was his second best player.


----------



## sknydave

Which player on the Heat is even remotely as good as Lamar Odom?


----------



## Dee-Zy

He is probably thinking of Quinn


----------



## NewAgeBaller

SoCalfan21 said:


> His team is a solid team... Haslem, Cook, Chalmers, Jermaine O'Neal....that team could win 45- 50 games.. which they could do this season...
> 
> 
> Remember Kobe won 48 games with the likes of Kwame Brown, Smush Parker and Chris Mihm as starters. Lamar Odom was his second best player.


Chalmers and Daequan are cool, but they're rookies and sophomores, hence their inconsistency. Nice to have around, but not exactly the greatest signs of talent either.

Jermaine we picked up recently, he's played maybe 10 games, and before that we had Joel Anthony and Jamaal Magloire starting (for comparisons sake, Joel's hands might be worse than Kwame's).

Haslem has been about as impactful as Luke Walton this season and averages 2 or 3 blown assists for Wade a game.

We do have Beasley though, not sure why you didn't name him. His impact still has been less than say, Lamar Odom, largely due to restrictions of minutes and sub-par defence. So yea, I'd say Lamar Odom as your 2nd best player > Michael Beasley as your 2nd best player thus far.

Maybe we're a "solid" team now with Jermaine + Moon, but hardly with what we had before and have been running the majority of the season (pre-trade, the Marion team).

I don't see what you're trying to achieve comparing these teams records years apart anyway though.


----------



## SoCalfan21

NewAgeBaller said:


> Chalmers and Daequan are cool, but they're rookies and sophomores, hence their inconsistency. Nice to have around, but not exactly the greatest signs of talent either.
> 
> Jermaine we picked up recently, he's played maybe 10 games, and before that we had Joel Anthony and Jamaal Magloire starting (for comparisons sake, Joel's hands might be worse than Kwame's).
> 
> Haslem has been about as impactful as Luke Walton this season and averages 2 or 3 blown assists for Wade a game.
> 
> We do have Beasley though, not sure why you didn't name him. His impact still has been less than say, Lamar Odom, largely due to restrictions of minutes and sub-par defence. So yea, I'd say Lamar Odom as your 2nd best player > Michael Beasley as your 2nd best player thus far.
> 
> Maybe we're a "solid" team now with Jermaine + Moon, but hardly with what we had before and have been running the majority of the season (pre-trade, the Marion team).
> 
> I don't see what you're trying to achieve comparing these teams records years apart anyway though.


Yes I did forgot Beasley. That is my fault. Wade will always be in MVP discussions but Best player in the NBA? He needs to play a few more healthy seasons before you can really place him there. Alot of people look at stats to determine the best players which usually isn't the case.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Lamar Odom >>>> any player the Heat have not named Wade.

and in 2003-2004, WADE'S ROOKIE YEAR..

he co-led the Heat with Lamar Odom to 42 wins.

That's a LOTTERY team the year before that we are talking about.

and he did it with Brian Grant and Eddie Jones. Lamar Odom was his 2nd best player.

by the way, they went to game 6, round 2 of the playoffs.


----------



## SoCalfan21

sknydave said:


> Which player on the Heat is even remotely as good as Lamar Odom?


Lamar Odom was and still is very inconsistent... I believe that the Heat this year are better than that Lakers team.


----------



## ChrisRichards

That's cause your boy Kobe ins't as good as Wade is at making his teammates better.

Odom thrived in Miami and helped co-lead a rookie Wade and a lottery team to 42 wins and game 6 of round 2 playoffs.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Oh dear..


----------



## jazzy1

Wade isn't as good as Kobe thats ridiculous, Kobe dragged Kwame, Smush and Luke to the 7th seed in the tough *** western conference. 

The Lakers surrounding talent on those teams was terrible outside of a very inconsistent LO. Wade took LO, Butler and other vets with him during his rookie season run.

Wade is a great player no doubt and has made strides defensively though most of his defensive things are off the ball weakside steals and blocks, he has yet to lock anyone down in any game I've seen him play. 

His man up defense is still not that great add in lacking a consistent 3pt shot sapotty free throw shooting and ridiculous amount of turnovers and I still think his game has some growing to do. 

I think its Kobe, Lebron and then Wade.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Wade is always going to be in LeBron's shadow, and Kobe has played too many years and done too much for him to lose his status while still playing prime basketball. Kobe is like LeBron's big brother who can still punk him on the court but it's getting more rare by the season and sooner than later LeBron is going to become greater than his big brother. Wade will continue to play good basketball, get hurt sometimes, and be inferior to LeBron, even if it's only slightly.


----------



## JT

> LeBron is really jus a big guy who can take it to the basket. His jump shooting is terrible and on top of all of this he should be averaging 40 points a game with how easily he could use his size to get to the basket. I don't understand why he shoots the ball so much from the perimeter...


you vastly understate LeBron's game. he has a lot more in his arsenal than penetration, and his jumpshot isn't terrible, just inconsistent.

and [moving from QP to OP], the interesting thing about Wade is he usually outscores Kobe in head to head matchups.


----------



## Luke

ChrisRichards said:


> That's cause your boy Kobe ins't as good as Wade is at making his teammates better.
> 
> Odom thrived in Miami and helped co-lead a rookie Wade and a lottery team to 42 wins and game 6 of round 2 playoffs.


Did you even watch one game of Kobe's in the 2006 or 2007 seasons, i'm guessing you didn't.


----------



## JT

VanillaPrice said:


> Did you even watch one game of Kobe's in the 2006 or 2007 seasons, i'm guessing you didn't.


2006-07? how could he have. the man was born yesterday.


----------



## sMaK

Odom played very well on that Miami team because he was the primary ball handler for most of the season. When Wade was given the reins his role was diminished and he suddenly became the 3rd best player on the team. He wasn't even the leading scorer on that team, Eddie Jones was.

I like Odom a lot but the main reason he had his best season was because he had the ball in his hands all the time.


----------



## ChrisRichards

JT said:


> 2006-07? how could he have. the man was born yesterday.


you are talking about yourself


----------



## JT

yeah...good one.


----------



## ChrisRichards

says the guy who thought of the very original and witty "he was born yesterday"

yeah, that one was so great. good job!


----------



## mo76

JT said:


> you vastly understate LeBron's game. he has a lot more in his arsenal than penetration, and his jumpshot isn't terrible, just inconsistent.
> 
> and [moving from QP to OP],* the interesting thing about Wade is he usually outscores Kobe in head to head matchups*.


Last I checked basketball was a team game. Head to head matchup? So did wade tell his team not to help on kobe cause he didnt want to diminish the sanctity of their battle. Please. 

I think it is more interesting to watch teams compete TO WIN THE GAME.


----------



## JT

it was a simple observation. you overreacted by extrapolating things from a provenance unknown. we already know that the Lakers usually beat the Heat, so cool off. and teams playing to win the game is so obvious it doesn't even need to be said, or commented on [in most cases]. I was simply giving Wade some credit for outplaying Kobe, to say nothing of the respective game results. is that clear enough?


----------



## mo76

Ya, but if a guy scores 40, 50, 60 its on the team, not just one guy.
And just because your check outscores you doesnt mean you played a bad game. You might still have played good defence and shot efficiently. That is why I think head to head comparisons are useless, as your objective is to win. Some nights one guy might be on fire, but if you do all you can to help your team win, you outplayed him.


----------



## ChrisRichards

you think I was born yesterday because I believe wade does a much better job at making his team play better than kobe does? ha.

as i said, kobe failed with lamar odom and caron while wade as a rookie on a lottery team succeeded. kobe failed miserably as the league favorites to win the title vs boston. 

kobe's Field-Goal Attempt to Assist ratio in the clutch time is 56 to 1. 

wade is better at involving his teammates, making them better, than kobe is. the proof is there.


----------



## Luke

ChrisRichards said:


> you think I was born yesterday because I believe wade does a much better job at making his team play better than kobe does? ha.
> 
> as i said, kobe failed with lamar odom and caron while wade as a rookie on a lottery team succeeded. kobe failed miserably as the league favorites to win the title vs boston.
> 
> kobe's Field-Goal Attempt to Assist ratio in the clutch time is 56 to 1.
> 
> wade is better at involving his teammates, making them better, than kobe is. the proof is there.


Again, you show that you have no idea what you're talking about.

You do realize that Kobe missed 16 games, Lamar missed nearly a month, Caron missed signifigant time, and the Lakers didn't have Eddie Jones or any servicable role player for that matter?

I'm guessing that you also had no idea that before Kobe went down with injury, the Lakers had a winning record in a FAR tougher conference then Wade has ever been exposed to.

Any Basketball fan knew that Boston was the better team, they had far more size, they were hungrier, and they had homecourt, it also didn't help that our second best player in that series was Sasha freaking Vujacic.

Heres an idea - Watch a Laker game and then ramble on about a subject that you don't have any knowlagw about.
'


----------



## mo76

ChrisRichards said:


> you think I was born yesterday because I believe wade does a much better job at making his team play better than kobe does? ha.
> 
> as i said, kobe failed with lamar odom and caron while wade as a rookie on a lottery team succeeded. kobe failed miserably as the league favorites to win the title vs boston.
> 
> kobe's Field-Goal Attempt to Assist ratio in the clutch time is 56 to 1.
> 
> wade is better at involving his teammates, making them better, than kobe is. the proof is there.


 
wade does seem to have more of a "clubhouse" mentallity than king kobe bryant. Kobe always seems like he a frustrated tutor while wade seems like one of the guys.


----------



## DNKO

Delete this thread.


----------



## ChrisRichards

did you see the game that just ended?

Wade -IS- the best player in the NBA. LeBron, eat your heart out, you are now second!


----------



## reHEATed

he is starting to do things few or nobody in history have done

he is on an incredible tear right now.


----------



## ChrisRichards

it wasn't just a clutch shot, it was clutch DEFENSE -AND- clutch shots by wade

M.V.P.


----------



## DNKO

You don't treat the team from your hometown like that.

I actually liked Wade and I actually said LONG TIME ago how he's the best player in the league.

No. He's last. 423rd player in the league. Scrap. I hate him. Because this was a foul play.

And just like Bryon Russell, I hope nobody EVER pronounces or writes his name right.


----------



## ChrisRichards

lol you dont mean that 


WADE
15-21 FG
5-6 FROM THE 3
48 POINTS 3 BLOCKS 4 STEALS 12 ASSISTS 6 BOARDS


----------



## Ras

ChrisRichards said:


> did you see the game that just ended?
> 
> Wade -IS- the best player in the NBA. LeBron, eat your heart out, you are now second!


Wade had a hell of a game. A real damn good game. He couldn't be stopped, and made the baskets when they were needed (mostly*).

And I know I've done this a million and one times, and I'm getting tired of asking because I've realized by now I won't get an answer, but, again: what puts Wade above LeBron?



*He missed a bunch of key free-throws that almost lost them the game, and I know you'd pick at LeBron and Kobe for that, so I had to mention it.


----------



## DNKO

Ben Gordon clear NBA GOAT.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Ras said:


> Wade had a hell of a game. A real damn good game. He couldn't be stopped, and made the baskets when they were needed (mostly*).
> 
> And I know I've done this a million and one times, and I'm getting tired of asking because I've realized by now I won't get an answer, but, again: what puts Wade above LeBron?
> 
> 
> 
> *He missed a bunch of key free-throws that almost lost them the game, and I know you'd pick at LeBron and Kobe for that, so I had to mention it.


I love the Heat, I love Wade, and only until 20 minutes ago did I change my pick for best player in the league. I have said all along LeBron is the best.

LeBron is the bigger, stronger, faster player. Wade plays above his height, above his body.

but what Wade is doing lately has been absolutely skullcracking. Look at his accomplishments past month. 

So for now, Wade is the best player in the NBA.


----------



## Ras

ChrisRichards said:


> I love the Heat, I love Wade, and only until 20 minutes ago did I change my pick for best player in the league. I have said all along LeBron is the best.
> 
> LeBron is the bigger, stronger, faster player. Wade plays above his height, above his body.
> 
> but what Wade is doing lately has been absolutely skullcracking. Look at his accomplishments past month.
> 
> So for now, Wade is the best player in the NBA.


Well, I can agree that Wade has been playing better then anyone lately; he's on an absolute tear. He hit almost everything he threw up tonight. The three at the end of the half, the three to send it to OT and the three that sunk the game....damn. I think looking back at the game it was more incredible then I even realized, and I honestly wish I stopped for a moment to appreciate what I was watching because now all I have are highlights. He just couldn't be stopped. He could just walk into the lane and put it in. It was incredible to watch.


----------



## ChrisRichards

not just the shots. all the greats like kobe and lebron make the epic shots.

it's the CLUTCH DEFENSE!!

Wade had -4- steals, the epic steal to win the game and hit the 3, the blocks in overtime, he's just everywhere.

there is a stat that shows Wade averages 6.5 blocks and 3.4 steals in the clutch


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

Wade is a beast. He has been on a complete tear since the AS break. It's reached the point where teams are basically double teaming him at half-court. 

He has to be over 35ppg in the last 10 games


----------



## Ras

ChrisRichards said:


> not just the shots. all the greats like kobe and lebron make the epic shots.
> 
> it's the CLUTCH DEFENSE!!
> 
> Wade had -4- steals, the epic steal to win the game and hit the 3, the blocks in overtime, he's just everywhere.
> 
> there is a stat that shows Wade averages 6.5 blocks and 3.4 steals in the clutch


Wait, I don't understand what you mean. How does he average 6.5 blocks in the clutch? He doesn't make that many blocks per game. Or do you mean, if you averaged out the last couple minutes of a game to a full 48, he'd average that many?


----------



## ChrisRichards

Benedict_Boozer said:


> Wade is a beast. He has been on a complete tear since the AS break. It's reached the point where teams are basically double teaming him at half-court.
> 
> He has to be over 35ppg in the last 10 games


more.

he's scored 40+ in like the past 6 games


----------



## 77AJ

D Wade enjoy the glory, dude is completely unstoppable right now. It's to the point that teams can't even defend him in a team concept anymore, they have to send Two Players to meet him at half court to try and guard him just to slow him down during the 4th quarters.

D Wade is the undisputed champ as the best player in the NBA since all star break right now, bar none.


----------



## ChrisRichards

yeah, when they double him at half-court, wade racks up the assists

he had 12 again tonight. he's gone the past 6 games with 10+ assists


----------



## 77AJ

ChrisRichards said:


> yeah, when they double him at half-court, wade racks up the assists
> 
> he had 12 again tonight. he's gone the past 6 games with 10+ assists


Yep because of that double team strategy, Wade will be the first player since Michael Jordan to rack up 30 points on 50 percent shooting, who averaged 8 assists for a season, IMO that's how Wades stats will end for the regular season. Dude is just unstoppable, and just as impressive is those blocks, and steals for a guard, just incredible, plus his man to man defense is tenacious, D Wade is just on a tear that's simply put historical and Wade doesn't look to be stopping anytime soon.


----------



## ChrisRichards

he's #2 in the nba in steals, after chris paul

and #26 in the NBA in blocks....


----------



## sMaK

It has gotten to the point that Heat fans expect him to score 35+ every game. It's completely ridiculous.


----------



## 77AJ

sMaK said:


> It has gotten to the point that Heat fans expect him to score 35+ every game. It's completely ridiculous.


It's getting to the point you think D Wade will score 40 a game. Dude is insane.


----------



## DNKO

If I was in the NBA Wade wouldn't score one more point. I would sign and wave from teams on 1 day contracts just to play D on him. He would never get a clear look to the basket again.


----------



## sMaK

DNKO said:


> If I was in the NBA Wade wouldn't score one more point. I would sign and wave from teams on 1 day contracts just to play D on him. He would never get a clear look to the basket again.


lol


----------



## ChrisRichards

Wade doing it on BOTH ends of the floor

4 steals, 3 blocks. most of them in clutch time.


----------



## 77AJ

Yeah D Wades defense can't be understated, the guy is a tenacious defender and should be 1st team all NBA defense with out a doubt.


----------



## ChrisRichards

basel posted this in the game thread






this doesn't have all the highlights though. wade also had a 3 pointer to tie the game and send it to OT.


----------



## 77AJ

It will be interesting to watch D Wade in the next game versus the Boston Celtics defense. We just saw recently how pedestrian the Celtics made LeBron look on the offensive end. I think this could be another big statement game by D Wade this year.


----------



## Omega

wtf at those jerseys..


----------



## Cap

Damn, all this effort to beat the Bulls, at home too. We'll have to see if he can keep it up, maybe he finally plays an 80+ game season this year?


----------



## Wade2Bosh

Omega said:


> wtf at those jerseys..


"Noche Latina" promotion by the NBA. The Spurs, Mavs and Lakers also did it last week.a


----------



## ChrisRichards

Only players in NBA history to record over 100 blocks and over 175 steals in the same season are the following:

Michael Jordan (86-87, 87-88)
Hakeem (88-89)
Scottie Pippen (89-90)
Bobby Jones (76-77)

Wade is on pace to beat both those numbers if he plays all 82 games.

MJ is the only NBA player in history to do that while leading the league in scoring


----------



## ChrisRichards




----------



## 77AJ

Cap said:


> Damn, all this effort to beat the Bulls, at home too. We'll have to see if he can keep it up, maybe he finally plays an 80+ game season this year?


I also believe the Bobcats beat the Lakers in LA. It's the NBA dude, nothing is a gimmie game. 

Also the Bulls made a nice trade with the Kings and got some nice parts now in Brad Miller, Salmons, and plus they already had IMO rookie of the year Rose, and of course Ben Gordon can go off any night like he did against the Heat for 43 points. Bulls are not to shabby these days.


----------



## 77AJ

ChrisRichards said:


>


It's cool to see how big a fan the owner is of the Heat. He's right in the mix wit the party going on in Miami. Good stuff by D Wade!!


----------



## futuristxen

23AJ said:


> I also believe the Bobcats beat the Lakers in LA. It's the NBA dude, nothing is a gimmie game.


Especially if you're the miami heat, and you're only like 7 games better than the Bulls. The Heat are closer to the Bulls record wise than they are the Cavs, Lakers, and Celtics.

I still don't really get what the big deal is this year with people and DWade. He's playing well, I don't know why it can't just be left at that. It's this business about him being better than Lebron that makes no sense. Lebron is putting up extremely similar numbers, in less time, on a team that is competing for the best record in the NBA. He also has been doing what Wade is doing this year, ever since he came into the league(taking an okay team to great heights).


----------



## ChrisRichards

wade's been doing it for longer.

lottery team the year before to game 6, round 2 of eastern semifinals with wade as a rookie.

finals MVP.

for several years, wade was THE CONSENSUS BEST player in all of the playoffs.

you talk like wade hasn't been doing it too.


----------



## futuristxen

ChrisRichards said:


> wade's been doing it for longer.
> 
> lottery team the year before to game 6, round 2 of eastern semifinals with wade as a rookie.
> 
> finals MVP.
> 
> for several years, wade was THE CONSENSUS BEST player in all of the playoffs.
> 
> you talk like wade hasn't been doing it too.


How has Wade been doing it longer? They came into the league the same year. That team that made the Eastern Semifinals had Lamar Odom and Caron Butler on it, pulling a lot of weight. And then when he got to the finals, he was sent to the free throw line anytime anyone tried to defend him, after riding Shaq's coattails to that point. Look, he's a really good player. But he is not as good as Lebron James or even Kobe Bryant. His game isn't as polished as Kobe's, and it's not as dominant as Lebron's. He's some sort of middle ground between the two, but a tier just behind both of them.

Lebron has put teams over the 50 win mark that had no business being there, just on his own individual brilliance. And those efforts went ignored. But as soon as Wade does something similar, it's a big deal. 

And I think it's a funny coincidence that it happens to be the one year that Lebron finally has one of the best teams in the NBA with him. For the longest time that was the big reason why people discounted Lebron because his team wasn't one of the very top teams. But now that it is, you're going to tell me the rules have changed, and it's not about being the best player on the best team?

It seems like the rules for these things are always changing just to exclude Lebron. It's been going on since his rookie year when the coaches put Paul Pierce on the all-star team even though Lebron was more deserving, they did it just because Lebron was right out of high school and they resented his success and fame.

And they've always loved Wade because he went to college, and he's everything they hoped Carmelo would be, which is the boring person's alternative to Lebron. 

So you say you're kind of jealous of Lebron's success as a player? Kind of pissed what he's done at his age? Think he should pay more dues? Well fear not. Here's Dwyane Wade who is ALMOST as good. He's SAFE.


----------



## Cap

futuristxen said:


> Especially if you're the miami heat, and you're only like 7 games better than the Bulls. The Heat are closer to the Bulls record wise than they are the Cavs, Lakers, and Celtics.
> 
> I still don't really get what the big deal is this year with people and DWade. He's playing well, I don't know why it can't just be left at that. It's this business about him being better than Lebron that makes no sense. Lebron is putting up extremely similar numbers, in less time, on a team that is competing for the best record in the NBA. He also has been doing what Wade is doing this year, ever since he came into the league(taking an okay team to great heights).


Pretty much. LeBron's also healthy far more often than Wade has ever been, and doesn't get nearly the love Wade does from officials. Based on this season alone it's LeBron easily, not just due to team record (which isn't even close), but game too. Not like Wade doesn't have help with Chalmers, Beasley, JO, Haslem, etc.


----------



## 77AJ

futuristxen said:


> Especially if you're the miami heat, and you're only like 7 games better than the Bulls. The Heat are closer to the Bulls record wise than they are the Cavs, Lakers, and Celtics.
> 
> I still don't really get what the big deal is this year with people and DWade. He's playing well, I don't know why it can't just be left at that. It's this business about him being better than Lebron that makes no sense. Lebron is putting up extremely similar numbers, in less time, on a team that is competing for the best record in the NBA. He also has been doing what Wade is doing this year, ever since he came into the league(taking an okay team to great heights).


You and Steve Nash can you have your team records, and I make my teammates better argument all day long. D Wade is the Beast of the East and has been the NBA's best player post all star game. Deal with it.


----------



## ChrisRichards

futuristxen said:


> How has Wade been doing it longer?


LeBron had Big Z, top 3 center in the East or top 5 in the NBA (at the time). no playoffs.

wade's rookie year. Heat reach playoffs, Wade hits a game winner on Baron Davis to help the Heat get past round 1.

In wade's 2nd and 3rd years, Wade was the consensus BEST PLAYER in the post-season. Bar none. He put up big numbers WITHOUT shaq vs the Wizards in the playoffs.

Wade had the game winning steal vs the Nets on Vince Carter in the playoffs. Wade had game winning blocks in the Finals vs the Mavs, wins championship in what is regarded as the single greatest NBA Finals performance in NBA history by ESPN. Yes, even over all the Jordan ones.


wade has been doing it over and over. Wade's 4th and 5th year were injury.

this is Wade, year #6. Be amazed.


----------



## futuristxen

23AJ said:


> You and Steve Nash can you have your team records, and I make my teammates better argument all day long. D Wade is the Beast of the East and has been the NBA's best player post all star game. Deal with it.


Post all-star game? What's that...a month so far? They have an award for that. It's called the player of the month award. Not the MVP. The MVP is for your entire year. Start to finish.


----------



## 77AJ

Cap said:


> Pretty much. LeBron's also healthy far more often than Wade has ever been, and doesn't get nearly the love Wade does from officials. Based on this season alone it's LeBron easily, not just due to team record (which isn't even close), but game too. Not like Wade doesn't have help with Chalmers, Beasley, JO, Haslem, etc.


Yeah D Wade plays with what other all star ? Ooops that's right none. D Wade has what kind of deep team ala Lakers and Cavs ? Oh yeah that's right he doesn't. How many rookies start for the Lakers and Cavs ? That's right none!

As far as the officials, hmm strange D Wade get's love, yet LeBron has gone to the free throw line more this season than D Wade. 

As I already stated I can really careless about team records, MVP's should be voted for regardless of team records, just like All Stars should be voted for regardless of team records.


----------



## 77AJ

futuristxen said:


> Post all-star game? What's that...a month so far? They have an award for that. It's called the player of the month award. Not the MVP. The MVP is for your entire year. Start to finish.


D Wades entire year has been dominate, maybe you don't watch basketball outside of Cavs games ?


----------



## SamTheMan67

Using AJ's logic Lebron should've been mvp in his 31ppg/7apg/7rpg year.. but he wasn't and Wade won't..

Also lets throw Kevin durant and AL jefferson on first team all nba because you know there stats are superior? *EDIT: Don't need to be calling anyone a troll; attack the post, not the poster.*


----------



## Cap

23AJ said:


> Yeah D Wade plays with what other all star ? Ooops that's right none. D Wade has what kind of deep team ala Lakers and Cavs ? Oh yeah that's right he doesn't. How many rookies start for the Lakers and Cavs ? That's right none!
> 
> As far as the officials, hmm strange D Wade get's love, yet LeBron has gone to the free throw line more this season than D Wade.
> 
> As I already stated I can really careless about team records, MVP's should be voted for regardless of team records, just like All Stars should be voted for regardless of team records.


Cavs have a fine supporting cast around LeBron, but so does Wade, just to a lesser degree but not a significant degree now that he has legit PF/C. And Wade gets love from officials, check his healthy seasons' FTA and, more importantly, his 06 postseason run where he got ref favoricism unparalleled in league history. With that sort of help, sure, he's the best player in the league. Hell, what perimeter player doesn't destroy the Mavs or Wizards, I wish my Lakers could somehow magically play the Mavs in an NBA Finals, Kobe would have dropped 60+ in at least one game like he has against them before. Bryant's averaged 35/7/7/50% per 40 mpg for his _career_ against the Mavs without Shaq.


----------



## ChrisRichards

SamTheMan67 said:


> Using AJ's logic Lebron should've been mvp in his 31ppg/7apg/7rpg year.. but he wasn't and Wade won't..
> 
> Also lets throw Kevin durant and AL jefferson on first team all nba because you know there stats are superior? cmon AJ23 shouldn't you troll somewhere else against Lebron?


yup, thats why i know LeBron will win mvp... but wade needs to be in the discussion.

but Wade has been carrying teams his whole career. even as a rookie, and got them to the playoffs. thats why he has been doing it for longer than lebron, because bron missed the playoffs for a bit there.


----------



## futuristxen

ChrisRichards said:


> yup, thats why i know LeBron will win mvp... but wade needs to be in the discussion.


What does "in the discussion mean"? Clearly he's "in the discussion".


----------



## 77AJ

Cap said:


> Cavs have a fine supporting cast around LeBron, but so does Wade, just to a lesser degree but not a significant degree now that he has legit PF/C. And Wade gets love from officials, check his healthy seasons' FTA and, more importantly, his 06 postseason run where he got ref favoricism unparalleled in league history. With that sort of help, sure, he's the best player in the league. Hell, what perimeter player doesn't destroy the Mavs or Wizards, I wish my Lakers could somehow magically play the Mavs in an NBA Finals, Kobe would have dropped 60+ in at least one game like he has against them before. Bryant's averaged 35/7/7/50% per 40 mpg for his _career_ against the Mavs without Shaq.


A.) J O'neal is how good in your opinion ? I believe he's decent, but not nearly as good as let's say Al Horford, who many wouldn't have in the top 5 of centers in the league. LBJ nor Kobe would trade the next two best guy's on their team for anyone on the Heat (bar D Wade), that's what you call a big disparity in talent.

B.) D Wade has been healthy this entire season dude. It seems like to me your nit picking aspects of D Wades past to fit your argument, the problem is were talking about this season for D Wade.

C.) What Wade did in the finals is irrelevant to this season. Dare is say your approaching hater territory here. 

D.) By the way you might not know it, but Kobe is my favorite player in the NBA, and up until about a month ago I believed he was the best player in the game ( and i still do to an extent) However I can't turn a blind eye to what D Wade is doing this season, He is IMO playing the best basketball of anyone in the league bar none, on both ends of the court.


----------



## Cap

23AJ said:


> A.) J O'neal is how good in your opinion ? I believe he's decent, but not nearly as good as let's say Al Horford, who many wouldn't have in the top 5 of centers in the league. LBJ nor Kobe would trade the next two best guy's on their team for anyone on the Heat, that's what you call a big disparity in talent.


The fact that he's taking significant minutes away from Joel Anthony speaks volumes about how much better they got. More so defensively than anything else, over the long run. 



> B.) D Wade has been healthy this entire season dude. It seems like to me your nit picking aspects of D Wades past to fit your argument, the problem is were talking about this season for D Wade.


I was talking about his entire career, not just this season. But he has taken more FTA per game than LeBron this season too, btw. 



> C.) What Wade did in the finals is irrelevant to this season. Dare is say your approaching hater territory here.


Come on now, are you a neutral arbitrator in a LeBron-Wade discussion? I know I am. 



> D.) By the way you might not know it, but Kobe is my favorite player in the NBA, and up until about a month ago I believe he was the best player in the game ( and i still do to an extent) However I can't turn a blind eye to what D Wade is doing this season, He is IMO playing the best basketball of anyone in the league bar none, on both ends of the court.


Wade is playing well lately, but we've seen this before the last two seasons. He can't stay healthy. Maybe he has turned the corner, I hope so. That said, he certainly can be debated as in the same territory as these other guys, when healthy.


----------



## SamTheMan67

23AJ said:


> A.) J O'neal is how good in your opinion ? I believe he's decent, but not nearly as good as let's say Al Horford, who many wouldn't have in the top 5 of centers in the league. LBJ nor Kobe would trade the next two best guy's on their team for anyone on the Heat (bar D Wade), that's what you call a big disparity in talent.
> 
> B.) D Wade has been healthy this entire season dude. It seems like to me your nit picking aspects of D Wades past to fit your argument, the problem is were talking about this season for D Wade.
> 
> C.) What Wade did in the finals is irrelevant to this season. Dare is say your approaching hater territory here.
> 
> D.) By the way you might not know it, but Kobe is my favorite player in the NBA, and up until about a month ago I believed he was the best player in the game ( and i still do to an extent) However I can't turn a blind eye to what D Wade is doing this season, He is IMO playing the best basketball of anyone in the league bar none, on both ends of the court.


D) You honestly believe Dwayne Wade is playing the best defense in the league? Even Heat fans won't agree with that one..


----------



## 77AJ

Cap said:


> The fact that he's taking significant minutes away from Joel Anthony speaks volumes about how much better they got. More so defensively than anything else, over the long run.
> 
> 
> 
> I was talking about his entire career, not just this season. But he has taken more FTA per game than LeBron this season too, btw.
> 
> 
> 
> Come on now, are you a neutral arbitrator in a LeBron-Wade discussion? I know I am.
> 
> 
> 
> Wade is playing well lately, but we've seen this before the last two seasons. He can't stay healthy. Maybe he has turned the corner, I hope so. That said, he certainly can be debated as in the same territory as these other guys, when healthy.


Well let's put it this way Joel Anthony is not Al Horford is he ? J Oneal isn't bad at all, he's a solid average center who's not going to make you lose games, so yes the Heat have gotten better. However the Lakers and Cavs are not going to trade their centers for J Oneal, who speaking of injury prone about D Wade, need I say more about J Oneal who has been injured this season, D Wade not.

Wades entire career has had it's up's and down's, no doubt about it. However I would say a lot more up's. And IMO being the best player is a year to year discussion, and this season D Wade has been the most dominate player from start to finish to this point in the season, it's not big a huge margin, but IMO it's clear nobody is playing better.

Not sure where you got your stats from, I got mine from ESPN, it says LB-J has taken one more FTA this season than that of Wade. So in the end it's really a non issue that you brought up about officials, as it's obvious they both go to the line pretty much equally.

I wouldn't say I'm neutral about anything, I'm a fan of the NBA, but I have my preferences and biased opinions like everyone here does, but I'm not implying other wise - evil grin -

You don't come across unbiased IMO at all in this debate.

Wade has been healthy this season, that's why I'm only debating this year for D Wade. Besides health issues in the past make zero impact on the impact Wade is having in Miami this year.


----------



## Cap

SamTheMan67 said:


> D) You honestly believe Dwayne Wade is playing the best defense in the league? Even Heat fans won't agree with that one..


Yeah, this too. Wade is great off the ball but is really very pedestrian on-the-ball. LeBron is clearly superior in this aspect of his game, and isn't so much worse than Wade off the ball to make a big enough difference. I mean, I know Wade had a great game on O, but he barely played Gordon to a stand-still points-wise.


----------



## 77AJ

Cap said:


> Yeah, this too. Wade is great off the ball but is really very pedestrian on-the-ball. LeBron is clearly superior in this aspect of his game, and isn't so much worse than Wade off the ball to make a big enough difference. I mean, I know Wade had a great game on O, but he barely played Gordon to a stand-still points-wise.


Right so Pierce dropping 29 on 50 percent shooting on James the other night means James is suddenly bad at defense ? Some guy's are going to get hot no matter what, you realize Gordon made 8 3 point bombs with a hand in his face right ?

Also this game is more like the game where Manu dropped over 40 points on LBJ because he was really hot from the 3 point line. Ben Gordon much like Manu are explosive top flight NBA players.


----------



## Cap

23AJ said:


> Well let's put it this way Joel Anthony is not Al Horford is he ? J Oneal isn't bad at all, he's a solid average center who's not going to make you lose games, so yes the Heat have gotten better. However the Lakers and Cavs are not going to trade their centers for J Oneal, who speaking of injury prone about D Wade, need I say more about J Oneal who has been injured this season, D Wade not.


I'm saying Wade has a good supporting cast now, no excuses not to make noise in the playoffs. Al Hortford isn't relevant. 



> Wades entire career has had it's up's and down's, no doubt about it. However I would say a lot more up's. And IMO being the best player is a year to year discussion, and this season D Wade has been the most dominate player from start to finish to this point in the season, it's not big a huge margin, but IMO it's clear nobody is playing better.


Statistically and otherwise, LeBron has been better and is the better defender if you watch them closely. Or even, not that closely. 



> Not sure where you got your stats from, I got mine from ESPN, it says LB-J has taken one more FTA this season than that of Wade. So in the end it's really a non issue that you brought up about officials, as it's obvious they both go to the line pretty much equally.


I counted tonight's game. But over their carers, which is what I was talking about, it isn't even close. LeBron goes to the rack just as much as Wade does too, so that isn't an excuse. 



> I wouldn't say I'm neutral about anything, I'm a fan of the NBA, but I have my preferences and biased opinions like everyone here does, but I'm not implying other wise - evil grin -
> 
> You don't come across unbiased IMO at all in this debate.
> 
> Wade has been healthy this season, that's why I'm only debating this year for D Wade. Besides health issues in the past make zero impact on the impact Wade is having in Miami this year.


If you're chronically injured it's a fair criticism. Maybe he finally has a fully healthy season from beginning to end. That would be great to see.


----------



## Cap

23AJ said:


> Right so Pierce dropping 29 on 50 percent shooting on James the other night means James is suddenly bad at defense ? Some guy's are going to get hot no matter what, you realize Gordon made 8 3 point bombs with a hand in his face right ?


Huh? I was talking about today's game, not some random game. Overall LeBron has clearly been a superior on-the-ball defender. Blocks and steals show Wade is very solid off the ball (but still gambles way too much).


----------



## ChrisRichards

SamTheMan67 said:


> D) You honestly believe Dwayne Wade is playing the best defense in the league? Even Heat fans won't agree with that one..


#2 in the NBA in steals
#26 in the NBA in blocks

countless clutch steals and blocks to win games this season. if it weren't for Dwight Howard, i would have Wade up there


----------



## 77AJ

Cap said:


> Huh? I was talking about today's game, not some random game. Overall LeBron has clearly been a superior on-the-ball defender. Blocks and steals show Wade is very solid off the ball (but still gambles way too much).


I was talking about the game just a few days ago in Boston where the Celtics beat the Cavs, and Pierce guarded James, and vice versa, nothing random about it. 

Also you realize Manu dropped over 40 points on LB-J last season simply because he made a ton of 3 point shots right ? Kind of like what Ben Gordon did tonight. Gordon hit 8 3 point shots tonight, dude is a top flight NBA player, who by the way has burned LeBron several times as well. Ben Gordon isn't random, it's what he does, he scores buckets.

LeBron has had a handful of stand out games defensively, but nothing that would clearly make him a better defender on the ball than D Wade. Not by a long shot.


----------



## Cap

23AJ said:


> I was talking about the game just a few days ago in Boston where the Celtics beat the Cavs, and Pierce guarded James, and vice versa, nothing random about it.
> 
> Also you realize Manu dropped over 40 points on LB-J last season simply because he made a ton of 3 point shots right ? Kind of like what Ben Gordon did tonight. Gordon hit 8 3 point shots tonight, dude is a top flight NBA player, who by the way has burned LeBron several times as well. Ben Gordon isn't random, it's what he does, he scores buckets.
> 
> LeBron has had a handful of stand out games defensively, but nothing that would clearly make him a better defender on the ball than D Wade. Not by a long shot.


LeBron is clearly better on-the-ball if you watch games, Wade's whole defensive game literally revolves around jumping lanes and weak-side help, which makes him very good off the ball and not so good on the ball. He isn't even noteworthy as an on-the-ball defender. LeBron is, he has made a whole other leap in that aspect of his game, especially against big names.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

I'll just say, Wade has, as far as I know, been the best clutch defender in the NBA this season.

Take that for what its worth ('clutch' is ambiguous), I'm not exactly trying to press it on anyone. And take "best...defender" for what its worth also, as you can't measure man-defence I'm going mainly off the following;

I think Wade's had more game-changing defensive plays in the clutch ending minutes of games (whether it be the last 8 minutes or last 2), than any player in the league.


----------



## croco

He has been playing unbelievably well all year long, but this is getting ridiculous now. I think he was capable of delivering those scoring performances two or three years ago too, he just didn't have to because the Heat had a lot more talent around him. There were stretches when he would have 6 or 7 points after the first half and then go on to score 25 in the second half. Now he is forced to score all game long to keep Miami in games and he is doing just that. 

Historic play since the All-Star break.


----------



## hendrix2430

unbelievable game by my man D Wade! :clap:


----------



## gi0rdun

It's because of those ******* gamewinners that people forget the plays leading up to it. Wade missed like the last 4 or 5 free throws (IN A ROWW!!!) before hitting that shot. I think Dwyane Wade this year is like the the pre-Gasol Lakers where Kobe put up amazing stats but didn't win the MVP. If you want to look at stats LeBron is putting up numbers just as good as Wade so LeBron has this MVP in the bag.


----------



## sMaK

Wade's a good defender but he's not the best. Like Cap said, he just gambles too much. Spo had to take him off Gordon because Gordon kept getting away from him and hitting those 3s.


----------



## Brandname

I can't speak for Wade this year since Heat fans would know their defensive system better than I would, but in terms of Lebron's defense, he didn't become a great defender until he stopped going for so many steals and blocks. 

His second year in the league, he averaged exactly as many steals as Dwyane is right now. But he was a much worse defender. Now, he hardly ever goes for steals. It doesn't lead to as many exciting plays or runouts or anything, but he's a far better defender because of it. This was all under the direction of Mike Brown, one of the best defensive coaches in the league. He used to go for more blocks in the halfcourt set as well. But since leaving your feet for a jumpshooter is an example of poor defensive principles, he was corrected for this and now he closes shooters out without jumping. Even though I know it's more effective, it still amazes me each time to see how much better it is to contest the shot just by getting a hand up without leaving your feet. He closes out on shooters much better than he ever did before, he just doesn't get those flashy blocks in the halfcourt set as much. He averages more blocks now because he's mastered running players down on the break and blocking layups and dunks, which is one of those times where it's better to attempt the block. 

Just saying that, in Lebron's case at least, steals and blocks were never an indication of how good of a defender he is. They're even a bad indication for help defense. Help defense, far more than anything else in this game, is all about rotations. When the defense is rotating, you have to have your head on a swivel to make sure than when a teammates leaves his man to cover the guy with the ball, you rotate to his guy if that's the position you're in. All the top defenses rely on precision rotations, and if you're late on one, you might as well give the other team 2 points. When you hear someone barking orders on defense for the Cavs, it's Lebron. He quarterbacks the team defensively. Mike Brown has said all year that's why he makes the biggest impact on D. He's in control of the defense from a vocal perspective, and it keeps everyone on the same page. 

My whole point is that trying to evaluate a player's defense based on steals and blocks is ridiculously shallow and pretty useless. Not that the voters don't do that themselves (i.e. Camby got DPOY over Duncan), but they're very shallow as well. To some extent you can't help it. Nobody watches all the games, and there are some things you can miss. But the voters never do a good job of putting the work into these awards to really find out what makes a good defender. 

Maybe Wade does do the things that I describe. I haven't seen them this year, but I haven't watched all of his games. You could pick games where Lebron plays mediocre defense as well. I'm just saying that, from what I've seen, Lebron does a lot of things that are fundamentally sound on defense that Wade doesn't, and it doesn't show up at all in the numbers. It's why I've maintained that he's a better defender all year, and I still think that.


----------



## sknydave

Wade's defense against guys who want to get to the basket is pretty good. If he's defending a guy who likes to hit from the perimeter then chances are that guy will score at will


----------



## Brandname

Lebron had a similar issue a couple years ago when he could play guys like Paul Pierce tough but then get torched by Kyle Korver.


----------



## myst

Brandname said:


> I can't speak for Wade this year since Heat fans would know their defensive system better than I would, but in terms of Lebron's defense, he didn't become a great defender until he stopped going for so many steals and blocks.
> 
> His second year in the league, he averaged exactly as many steals as Dwyane is right now. But he was a much worse defender. Now, he hardly ever goes for steals. It doesn't lead to as many exciting plays or runouts or anything, but he's a far better defender because of it. This was all under the direction of Mike Brown, one of the best defensive coaches in the league. He used to go for more blocks in the halfcourt set as well. But since leaving your feet for a jumpshooter is an example of poor defensive principles, he was corrected for this and now he closes shooters out without jumping. Even though I know it's more effective, it still amazes me each time to see how much better it is to contest the shot just by getting a hand up without leaving your feet. He closes out on shooters much better than he ever did before, he just doesn't get those flashy blocks in the halfcourt set as much. He averages more blocks now because he's mastered running players down on the break and blocking layups and dunks, which is one of those times where it's better to attempt the block.
> 
> Just saying that, in Lebron's case at least, steals and blocks were never an indication of how good of a defender he is. They're even a bad indication for help defense. Help defense, far more than anything else in this game, is all about rotations. When the defense is rotating, you have to have your head on a swivel to make sure than when a teammates leaves his man to cover the guy with the ball, you rotate to his guy if that's the position you're in. All the top defenses rely on precision rotations, and if you're late on one, you might as well give the other team 2 points. When you hear someone barking orders on defense for the Cavs, it's Lebron. He quarterbacks the team defensively. Mike Brown has said all year that's why he makes the biggest impact on D. He's in control of the defense from a vocal perspective, and it keeps everyone on the same page.
> 
> My whole point is that trying to evaluate a player's defense based on steals and blocks is ridiculously shallow and pretty useless. Not that the voters don't do that themselves (i.e. Camby got DPOY over Duncan), but they're very shallow as well. To some extent you can't help it. Nobody watches all the games, and there are some things you can miss. But the voters never do a good job of putting the work into these awards to really find out what makes a good defender.
> 
> Maybe Wade does do the things that I describe. I haven't seen them this year, but I haven't watched all of his games. You could pick games where Lebron plays mediocre defense as well. I'm just saying that, from what I've seen, Lebron does a lot of things that are fundamentally sound on defense that Wade doesn't, and it doesn't show up at all in the numbers. It's why I've maintained that he's a better defender all year, and I still think that.


Just glanced at your post and didn't read the whole thing. But Wade is one of the best team defender's in the league, if not the best. His man defense is pretty bad, and he is slow on rotations and to run out to shooters. But unfortunately, that is the Heat's defensive style, Spoelstra calls it "organized chaos." That's why we win one night, get blown out the next, if the team is hitting their outside shots, we won't win, the whole defense is to protect the paint. That is why the Magic have beat us like 8 out of 10 times now. But I will say, this season, for the most part his man defense has been very good. He is just playing out of this world.


----------



## Omega

just saw the highlights from the Chicago game. he shouldnt have missed those free throws or that layup. inexcusable.

besides that though he was incredible. but it never should have come to what it did


----------



## ChrisRichards

definitely true, wade choked it up with those 2 missed free throws


but he MORE than made up for it don't ya think


----------



## Brandname

myst said:


> Just glanced at your post and didn't read the whole thing. But Wade is one of the best team defender's in the league, if not the best. His man defense is pretty bad, and he is slow on rotations and to run out to shooters. But unfortunately, that is the Heat's defensive style, Spoelstra calls it "organized chaos." That's why we win one night, get blown out the next, if the team is hitting their outside shots, we won't win, the whole defense is to protect the paint. That is why the Magic have beat us like 8 out of 10 times now. But I will say, this season, for the most part his man defense has been very good. He is just playing out of this world.


If he's slow on rotations, he's not one of the best team defenders in the league. That was part of the point of my post. Rotations are the biggest part of help defense.


----------



## -33-

I love the arguments of who's a better on-ball defender...Wade or LeBron.

They are both average at best, so leave it at that. Both are great at playing passing lanes and blocking shots from the weak side. As someone else has said, looking at defensive stats (steals/blocks) doesn't really tell the whole story of how good a player is on the defensive end. 

Also, saying that he "barely outscored his man" is complete BS. Neither Gordon or Wade were matched up with each other for most of the game. He didn't do a very good job of stopping BG, but the way he was shooting last night, he could've hit 3's in a hurricane.


----------



## rayz789

ChrisRichards said:


> wade's been doing it for longer.
> 
> lottery team the year before to game 6, round 2 of eastern semifinals with wade as a rookie.
> 
> finals MVP.
> 
> for several years, wade was THE CONSENSUS BEST player in all of the playoffs.
> 
> you talk like wade hasn't been doing it too.


The Heat record was 42-40 in 4th place in which they got home court advantage to go to the second round. The Cavs got the same record a year later and they missed the playoffs. So it shows Wade as a rookie the heat were very lucky the east in 2004 was terrible i mean sh4t 42-40 to be in 4th place? Talk about *no masked cursing*. Wade became finals mvp cause Shaq wanted him to get it to stick it to Kobe.


----------



## -33-

Brandname said:


> If he's slow on rotations, he's not one of the best team defenders in the league. That was part of the point of my post. Rotations are the biggest part of help defense.


If you had to pick 5 guys to throw out there and stop someone, I don't know why you wouldn't put him out there at one of your guard spots. His ability to make plays on defense overshadow his lack of on-ball "shutting down" skills. He's at the minimum, an average on-ball defender...


----------



## Brandname

DQ for 3 said:


> If you had to pick 5 guys to throw out there and stop someone, I don't know why you wouldn't put him out there at one of your guard spots. His ability to make plays on defense overshadow his lack of on-ball "shutting down" skills. He's at the minimum, an average on-ball defender...


I wasn't so much saying Wade was good or bad, just making the comment that I don't think you can say he's slow on rotations and then in the same breath say he's one of the best help defenders in the league. For some reason people starting thinking blocks + steals = help defense somewhere along the way, when those are actually only a couple of plays per game. 95% of help defense is making timely, precise rotations.

I haven't seen Wade enough this year to make much of a statement on that, but I'd definitely disagree with your comment that he's an average on-ball defender. He really has been great this year.

Also, you don't leave a whole lot of room for possibilities here:


DQ for 3 said:


> I love the arguments of who's a better on-ball defender...Wade or LeBron.
> 
> They are both average *at best*, so leave it at that.





DQ for 3 said:


> He's *at the minimum*, an average on-ball defender...


----------



## myst




----------



## -33-

Brandname said:


> I wasn't so much saying Wade was good or bad, just making the comment that I don't think you can say he's slow on rotations and then in the same breath say he's one of the best help defenders in the league. For some reason people starting thinking blocks + steals = help defense somewhere along the way, when those are actually only a couple of plays per game. 95% of help defense is making timely, precise rotations.
> 
> I haven't seen Wade enough this year to make much of a statement on that, but I'd definitely disagree with your comment that he's an average on-ball defender. He really has been great this year.
> 
> Also, you don't leave a whole lot of room for possibilities here:


In other words, they are average defenders eace:

In response to everything else, I pretty much agree with you. I don't really think I've ever thought Wade was slow on rotations, but maybe that's because some guys on our team are beyond slow b/c they don't understand our system yet. Wade's problem is that sometimes he gambles too much, and that hurts our overall team defense. When it's his help responsibility, and he's trying to set up for a block or jump the passing lane, it's not helping us stop the other team.

I think both LeBron and Wade are similar defensively. Neither are good on-ball, both are superb at making plays through steals/blocks and both can helps their bigs on the glass. My issue with both is that they have all the tools to be great defenders, but neither has achieved that level yet. In time, I think one or both can become legit 1st team all-defense players. They just have to commit themselves to being at a high level on both ends of the floor.


----------



## Adam

I can't stand seeing superstars get undue credit for defense. Although Tim Duncan and KG are the two best bigs in the game and there's really nobody close worth naming. The best forward is Chuck Hayes by far. There's no guard that should even be in the discussion. Lindsey Hunter is a million years old and he's still infinitely better than anybody else, but nobody wants to hear his name in any discussion. Chuck Hayes and Lindsey Hunter. Not very glamorous, so instead we hear about superstars and rightfully so because the NBA is a business first.


----------



## hendrix2430

I agree with most of what's been said. 

While I have been impressed with the Heat's D in general, I think Wade in particular (but not just him) gambles for steals a bit too much . He gets his fair share of steals/blocks but he would benefit from staying home a bit more. BTW, I think in Mike Brown's defensive system, D Wade would be a TERRIFIC defender. One more reason to come to Cleveland. lol 

About Lebron, he's already an excellent help defender, but he's when it comes to man D, I think he's well above average as well. He's also become quite the floor general defensively. In my mind, he's got a lot to do with the Cavs being the best D in the league, especially since he can guard effectively for 1 to 4 1/2...including super fast guys like TJ Ford, who he completely locked down this year in the fourth of one of the games. Even TJ ford seemed to be like "get off of me, damnit!" lol


----------



## Adam

hendrix2430 said:


> I agree with most of what's been said.
> 
> While I have been impressed with the Heat's D in general, I think Wade in particular (but not just him) gambles for steals a bit too much . He gets his fair share of steals/blocks but he would benefit from staying home a bit more. BTW, I think in Mike Brown's defensive system, D Wade would be a TERRIFIC defender. One more reason to come to Cleveland. lol
> 
> About Lebron, he's already an excellent help defender, but he's when it comes to man D, I think he's well above average as well. He's also become quite the floor general defensively. In my mind, he's got a lot to do with the Cavs being the best D in the league, especially since he can guard effectively for 1 to 4 1/2...including super fast guys like TJ Ford, who he completely locked down this year in the fourth of one of the games. Even TJ ford seemed to be like "get off of me, damnit!" lol


The one thing that I don't like though is the people who only see the highlights of him stealing a ball in the passing lane and assume that he only gets steals because he plays the passing lanes and he's a bad defensive player because of that. I mean, duh, of course they're going to show those steals on the highlights, but majority of his steals are from straight man defense because he has those freaking long monkey arms. The guy can basically shine his shoes while standing up. Playing the passing lane gets him only like 30% of his steals, yet you have the turds that are so hateful and miserable that they only watch their own team and they look at his highlights on ESPN and his steals per game and assume that he is a bad, gambling defender, but Wade is still as good a defender as any other superstar.


----------



## Tooeasy

myst said:


>


What does the announcer say 13 seconds into that clip? :whistling:


----------



## ChrisRichards




----------



## -33-

Tooeasy said:


> What does the announcer say 13 seconds into that clip? :whistling:


"Look at Wade!"...................:yay:


----------



## hendrix2430

The '93 Heat said:


> The one thing that I don't like though is the people who only see the highlights of him stealing a ball in the passing lane and assume that he only gets steals because he plays the passing lanes and he's a bad defensive player because of that. I mean, duh, of course they're going to show those steals on the highlights, but majority of his steals are from straight man defense because he has those freaking long monkey arms. The guy can basically shine his shoes while standing up. Playing the passing lane gets him only like 30% of his steals, yet you have *the turds* that are so hateful and miserable that they only watch their own team and they look at his highlights on ESPN and his steals per game and assume that he is a bad, gambling defender, but Wade is still as good a defender as any other superstar.


I certainly hope you're not refering to me, in that case. :azdaja:

And yes, I actually WATCH the games, thanks to League Pass...


----------



## Adam

hendrix2430 said:


> I certainly hope you're not refering to me, in that case. :azdaja:
> 
> And yes, I actually WATCH the games, thanks to League Pass...


Haha, no way hendrix. Wasn't referring to you. You're my boy blue


----------



## hendrix2430

The '93 Heat said:


> Haha, no way hendrix. Wasn't referring to you. You're my boy blue


haha, cheers. I'll take a samuel jackson. "It'll get you drunk"


----------



## futuristxen

Lebron is an above average man defender. I don't know what wade is, but let's not lump Lebron in with Wade on that front. Lebron is the Cavs best man-to-man defender on their whole roster. He guards 1-5 better than most anyone on their team(witness against the Raptors when Mike Brown had to put Lebron on JO to slow him down, since Z and Varejao couldn't get it done). Lebron is the Tim Duncan of the Cavs defense which is one of the very best in the league. It's not just about blocks and steals. Lebron gets those, sure. But it's about solid defense. Rotating to help your teammates. Talking. Lebron's the defensive floor general out there. He was that way in the olympics, and he's that way with the Cavs. It's definitely an underrated aspect of his best player credentials.

I think any statistical advantage Wade might have with steals and blocks, is mitigated by Lebron's man defense, and overall versatility defensively.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Wade nails a 3 pointer in the clutch with 30 somethin seconds left to nail the coffin on Boston.

Wade continues his monster streak

32 pts, 7 assists, 4 rebs, 4 steals

9-20 FG's


----------



## Omega

i was watching this game. he was astounding.


----------



## BlackNRed

ChrisRichards said:


> Wade nails a 3 pointer in the clutch with 30 somethin seconds left to nail the coffin on Boston.
> 
> Wade continues his monster streak
> 
> 32 pts, 7 assists, 4 rebs, 4 steals
> 
> 9-20 FG's


Yet that's below what he's been doing the last couple weeks. What a dissapointmnet.

Naw jk. MVP eace:

He was just tired from 50 mins in double OT monday.


----------



## myst

> There is hot. There is "on fire". And then, there is the zone that Dwyane Wade has been in for the last few weeks. Wade has been absolutely dominating the NBA, averaging 36.7 points, 10.9 assists, 6.1 boards, 2.8 steals, 2.2 treys, and 1.3 blocks while shooting 57 percent from the field and 85 percent from the line over his last nine games entering Wednesday. That is pretty close to NBASE perfection. Even when you factor in his lone negative of 4.2 TOs/game in that stretch, Wade is still operating on a level above even the other superstars.
> 
> To put it in perspective, the difference in NBASE scoring between Wade and LeBron James over the last week was larger than the gap between James and DeAndre Jordan, the 86th-highest NBASE scoring average over that period. Or to put it simpler, an NBASE owner would have gotten more points over the last week out of Wade alone than out of James and Kobe Bryantcombined. Now that, folks, is domination.
> 
> And the scary thing is that Wade seems to only be heating up, as his averages over the last five games are even higher than over the last nine. Wade almost has to keep playing at this level, as the Heat are only six games up on the 10th place team in the East and eight games up on the 13th place team. So if Wade slows down at all, it's still possible that the Heat could miss the playoffs. This is great for Wade's long-term NBASE appeal, as the stage is set for him to just continue to put up video game numbers for the foreseeable future.


http://www.nba.com/fantasy/features/hoopsmarket_031209.html


----------



## myst

> And here's some more good material for those of you looking to craft your own trivia question: From the start of the 1986-87 season -- my senior year of high school -- and through Feb. 27 of this year, not a single NBA player went for at least 40 points, 10 assists, six rebounds, four steals and three blocks in the same game.
> 
> In the past 14 days, Miami's Dwyane Wade has done so twice.


wow


----------



## Ras

myst said:


> wow


As much as I think those records with loose numbers are really arbitrary, that is nevertheless very, very impressive.


----------



## futuristxen

What is NBASE?

We need to kick the math nerds out of basketball. They are seriously ruining the game.


----------



## Pioneer10

futuristxen said:


> What is NBASE?
> 
> We need to kick the math nerds out of basketball. They are seriously ruining the game.


LOL: I'm one of the biggest stat geeks/nerds out there and I don't know what NBASE is. Scoring is pretty easy to judge by just using points/100 possesions and TS%


----------



## Dee-Zy

Who cares? Wade's NBASE is awesome, it is better than Kobe's and Lebron's combine!

hahaha, probably takes in account all the stats minus turn overs and turn over rates


----------



## -33-

futuristxen said:


> What is NBASE?
> 
> We need to kick the math nerds out of basketball. They are seriously ruining the game.


If it had LeBron on top, you'd be all over it though, right?


----------



## Brandname

Yeah I've never heard of NBASE either. I presume it's just some fantasy scoring system or something.

Nonetheless, I wonder when the last time we've had 2 players have the kind of seasons Lebron and Wade are having. Does anyone know if there have ever been 2 players in the league finishing above 30 in PER in the same season? The kind of years those two are having are unbelievable.


----------



## Diophantos

NBASE is just a stat for fantasy basketball, it has little to do with actual basketball.

Actual "advanced" stats that attempt to measure real things in basketball are useful, and dismissed only by people who don't understand them. People who talk about "kicking the math nerds" out of basketball are vastly missing the point. Stats (the good ones, not fantasy basketball) are a source of extra useful information to help you make decisions. Why are you afraid of more information?


----------



## Pioneer10

Brandname said:


> Yeah I've never heard of NBASE either. I presume it's just some fantasy scoring system or something.
> 
> Nonetheless, I wonder when the last time we've had 2 players have the kind of seasons Lebron and Wade are having. Does anyone know if there have ever been 2 players in the league finishing above 30 in PER in the same season? The kind of years those two are having are unbelievable.


Having just one player over a PER of 30 is rare. That last time that happened was McGrady's freakish 02-03 season. There has been no season with two players over 30. The highest combo ever for 2 players was that 02-03 season with McGrady over 30 and Shaq at 29.7


----------



## BlackNRed

D-Wade just became the all time leading scorer for Miami on a Dunk. Very fitting.


----------



## croco

Brandname said:


> Yeah I've never heard of NBASE either. I presume it's just some fantasy scoring system or something.
> 
> Nonetheless, I wonder when the last time we've had 2 players have the kind of seasons Lebron and Wade are having. Does anyone know if there have ever been 2 players in the league finishing above 30 in PER in the same season? The kind of years those two are having are unbelievable.


McGrady and Shaq were close in 2003 when they had a PER of 30.3 respectively 29.5, David Robinson and MJ each had a PER of 29.4 back in 1996, then Barkley (28.9) and Jordan (31.6) in 1991. 

I looked it up until the 1960 season, although there isn't conclusive evidence to compare any year because of the following reasons (via basketball-reference.com):

- 1979-80 — debut of 3-point shot in NBA 
- 1977-78 — player turnovers first recorded in NBA 
- 1973-74 — player offensive rebounds, steals, and blocked shots first recorded in NBA


----------



## gi0rdun

If people don't think that the best player in the NBA is a 3 way tie between LeBron, Kobe, and Wade then they are idiots.


----------



## -33-

As of recently, LeBron and Wade are making a lot more noise than Kobe...


----------



## myst

futuristxen said:


> What is NBASE?
> 
> We need to kick the math nerds out of basketball. They are seriously ruining the game.


Quick search of google and I found this. 

http://nbase.nba.com/web/guest/supp...ew&_EXT_MAIN_SUPPORT_topic=nba_scoring_system

Stands for NBA Stock Exchange.



> How does the NBA Stock Exchange Scoring System Work?
> 
> The NBA Stock Exchange (NBASE) uses a points-based scoring system with the following points awarded for each of the following statistical categories:
> Statistical Category Fantasy Points
> Field Goals Missed (FGMI) -0.46
> Field Goals Made (FGMA) 0.54
> Free Throw Missed (FTMI) -0.75
> Free Throw Made (FTMA) 0.25
> Points Scored (PT) 0.50
> 3-point Shots Made (3PT) 1.00
> Total Rebounds (REB) 1.50
> Assists (AST) 1.99
> Steals (ST) 3.00
> Turnovers (TO) -2.00
> Blocked Shots (BLK) 3.00



Looks like Wade is killing everybody because steals and blocks are worth 3 points each.


----------



## Adam

futuristxen said:


> We need to kick the math nerds out of basketball. They are seriously ruining the game.


It's good to see that you're branching out from yelling at cars and arguing with groceries to taking on the science of statistics.


----------



## myst

The '93 Heat said:


> It's good to see that you're branching out from yelling at cars and arguing with groceries to taking on the science of statistics.


:lol:


----------



## SheriffKilla

lol


----------



## LamarButler

Wade clearly deserves the MVP. He's .006 FG percentage away from being the first since Jordan to average 30 ppg on 50% shooting.


----------



## Brandname

Diophantos said:


> NBASE is just a stat for fantasy basketball, it has little to do with actual basketball.
> 
> Actual "advanced" stats that attempt to measure real things in basketball are useful, and dismissed only by people who don't understand them. People who talk about "kicking the math nerds" out of basketball are vastly missing the point. Stats (the good ones, not fantasy basketball) are a source of extra useful information to help you make decisions. Why are you afraid of more information?


Yeah, that's what I figured it was.


----------



## 77AJ

D Wade's Heat beat the Jazz.

D Wade drops 50 points 10 rebounds 9 assists 4 steals and 2 blocks on the Jazz.


----------



## Brandname

I think we need to step back and appreciate what we're seeing in Lebron and Wade this year. We're seeing two of the best individual seasons in a very, very long time.


----------



## Wade2Bosh

Brandname said:


> I think we need to step back and appreciate what we're seeing in Lebron and Wade this year. We're seeing two of the best individual seasons in a very, very long time.


Yeah, its pretty unreal what they're both doing this season. Especially still doing it this late in the season.

Wade is now averaging over 38ppg in the last 11 games.


----------



## Diable

Wade also took 39 shots today didn't he?


----------



## myst

Diable said:


> Wade also took 39 shots today didn't he?


Yup, a new career high.


----------



## Cap

Diable said:


> Wade also took 39 shots today didn't he?


True, but you're mentally impaired, aren't you?


----------



## reHEATed

Diable said:


> Wade also took 39 shots today didn't he?


yea...didnt get to the line all too much for a 3 ot game

made 19-39. That has to be 48-49%. Too many 3's for my liking (11 attempts), but its not like he was inefficient


----------



## LamarButler

Cap said:


> True, but you're mentally impaired, aren't you?


lol


----------



## hendrix2430

reHEATed said:


> yea...didnt get to the line all too much for a 3 ot game
> 
> made 19-39. That has to be 48-49%. Too many 3's for my liking (11 attempts), but its not like he was inefficient


I watch Heat games regularly (thanks to League Pass) and D Wade takes a LOT of shots, probably most in the league per 48... it's getting to a point where you expect him to shoot it every possession.

With that said, if I'm a Heat fan I'd rather have him take shots than any other player on the Heat, that's for sure! 

The only negative thing I see with his game as of late is the number of three he is taking. 11 threes is WAAY too many, for someone who's hitting 32%. He's hot right now, ok, but he'll eventually come back to earth. The exact same thing can be said about Lebron by the way, who's shooting about the same (.334%).


----------



## Adam

hendrix2430 said:


> I watch Heat games regularly (thanks to League Pass) and D Wade takes a LOT of shots, probably most in the league per 48... it's getting to a point where you expect him to shoot it every possession.
> 
> With that said, if I'm a Heat fan I'd rather have him take shots than any other player on the Heat, that's for sure!
> 
> The only negative thing I see with his game as of late is the number of three he is taking. 11 threes is WAAY too many, for someone who's hitting 32%. He's hot right now, ok, but he'll eventually come back to earth. The exact same thing can be said about Lebron by the way, who's shooting about the same (.334%).


1. Kobe 28.5
2. Wade 27.0
3. LeBron 25.5

It's not a coincidence that the three best players lead the league in field goal attempts. They would be shooting more if they could.


----------



## SlamJam

Brandname said:


> I think we need to step back and appreciate what we're seeing in Lebron and Wade this year. We're seeing two of the best individual seasons in a very, very long time.


yup, and paul isn't that far behind them.


----------



## hendrix2430

The '93 Heat said:


> 1. Kobe 28.5
> 2. Wade 27.0
> 3. LeBron 25.5
> 
> It's not a coincidence that the three best players lead the league in field goal attempts. They would be shooting more if they could.


Thanks for the stat! 

Kobe takes more shots than Wade? That's surprising...


----------



## Adam

hendrix2430 said:


> Thanks for the stat!
> 
> Kobe takes more shots than Wade? That's surprising...


What's crazy is Al Jefferson is tied with LeBron at 25.5. Pass the ball Big Al. :lol:


----------



## myst

hendrix2430 said:


> I watch Heat games regularly (thanks to League Pass) and D Wade takes a LOT of shots, probably most in the league per 48... it's getting to a point where you expect him to shoot it every possession.
> 
> With that said, if I'm a Heat fan I'd rather have him take shots than any other player on the Heat, that's for sure!
> 
> The only negative thing I see with his game as of late is the number of three he is taking. 11 threes is WAAY too many, for someone who's hitting 32%. He's hot right now, ok, but he'll eventually come back to earth. The exact same thing can be said about Lebron by the way, who's shooting about the same (.334%).


He's 32% for the season on 3's. But since the all-star break he is closer to 50%


----------



## hendrix2430

myst said:


> He's 32% for the season on 3's. But since the all-star break he is closer to 50%


Yeah, he is shooting lights out. But my point is that he didn't suddently turn into a good 3pt shooter...he will eventually come back to sub 35% levels, which is average. When he does, I hope he will stop shooting 7-8 threes a game. 2 or 3 a game + more midrange Js is enough to keep the defense off balance.


----------



## hendrix2430

The '93 Heat said:


> What's crazy is Al Jefferson is tied with LeBron at 25.5. Pass the ball Big Al. :lol:


Really? I didn't realize he shot the ball so much. In all fairness, who else can make plays on that team? :lol:


----------



## ChrisRichards

hendrix2430 said:


> Thanks for the stat!
> 
> Kobe takes more shots than Wade? That's surprising...


no, it really is not surprising. he shoots normally as any superstar does.

reading your post up there, i was like wtf?


----------



## hendrix2430

ChrisRichards said:


> no, it really is not surprising. he shoots normally as any superstar does.
> 
> reading your post up there, i was like wtf?


well it was suprising *to me* at least. I could have sworn Wade took more shots than Kobe, that's all. He does get to the line more though.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

hendrix2430 said:


> I watch Heat games regularly (thanks to League Pass) and D Wade takes a LOT of shots, probably most in the league per 48... it's getting to a point where you expect him to shoot it every possession.
> 
> With that said, *if I'm a Heat fan I'd rather have him take shots than any other player on the Heat, that's for sure!*
> 
> The only negative thing I see with his game as of late is the number of three he is taking. 11 threes is WAAY too many, for someone who's hitting 32%. He's hot right now, ok, but he'll eventually come back to earth. The exact same thing can be said about Lebron by the way, who's shooting about the same (.334%).


Beasley can hit any shot on the court, but Spo doesnt trust him yet.

It will kill us in the playoffs...


----------



## 77AJ

Rookie has to earn his stripes before coach is going to let him pull rank out there. However Beasley has been a lot better coming off the bench for the Heat. Miami is going to lose in the playoffs because they don't have a great team, not beach Beasley needs to shoot more jump shots.

Also Beasley has more FGA than all the starters on the Heat bar D Wade. I think Beasley is shaping up nicely for the Heat.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

23AJ said:


> Rookie has to earn his stripes before coach is going to let him pull rank out there. *However Beasley has been a lot better coming off the bench for the Heat.* Miami is going to lose in the playoffs because they don't have a great team, not beach Beasley needs to shoot more jump shots.
> 
> Also Beasley has more FGA than all the starters on the Heat bar D Wade. I think Beasley is shaping up nicely for the Heat.


What exactly do you mean by this? Beasley's always been coming off the bench..

I agree though, all-in-all I'm fine with how we're raising Beasley. The conflict is we quite need him now if we want to go further than most expect us to in the playoffs, but otherwise I think coaching staff have been kinda smart and well-disciplined.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

23AJ said:


> Rookie has to earn his stripes before coach is going to let him pull rank out there. However Beasley has been a lot better coming off the bench for the Heat. Miami is going to lose in the playoffs because they don't have a great team, not beach Beasley needs to shoot more jump shots.
> 
> Also Beasley has more FGA than all the starters on the Heat bar D Wade. I think Beasley is shaping up nicely for the Heat.


Beasley gets his shots but we hardly ever run any set plays for him. When we play him in the high/low post or in the pick and pop with Wade...he butchers teams!

The problem is that Spo doesnt call those plays anywhere nearly enough!


----------



## 77AJ

NewAgeBaller said:


> What exactly do you mean by this? Beasley's always been coming off the bench..
> 
> I agree though, all-in-all I'm fine with how we're raising Beasley. The conflict is we quite need him now if we want to go further than most expect us to in the playoffs, but otherwise I think coaching staff have been kinda smart and well-disciplined.


I was under the impression early on in the season Beasley started a few games for the Heat, and was really out of sink, but once benched back to the sixth man role was able to find his spots, and chemistry with the team. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I swear that's how the season started off to with him.


----------



## myst

23AJ said:


> I was under the impression early on in the season Beasley started a few games for the Heat, and was really out of sink, but once benched back to the sixth man role was able to find his spots, and chemistry with the team. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I swear that's how the season started off to with him.


You're right. He did start early in the season. He didn't necessarily get benched, he just wasn't ready defensively to get heavy minutes.


----------



## NewAgeBaller

23AJ said:


> I was under the impression early on in the season Beasley started a few games for the Heat, and was really out of sink, but once benched back to the sixth man role was able to find his spots, and chemistry with the team. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I swear that's how the season started off to with him.


I think you're right, he apparently started 15 games. I'd thought it was more like 5, and therefore not really significant to say "since he was benched".


----------



## ChrisRichards

Beasley was terruble on the defensive end for the first half of the year. That's why he comes off the bench


----------



## 77AJ

Yeah, I only said bench, not really to detract from Beasley so much, but more to show the high expectations they Heat organization was really expecting from him right out of the gate. However it seems B's is really finding his game, and niche, and I do think Beasley has made some real positive strides with his defense since the early portions of the season. Beasley could have a break out playoffs, much like D Wade did his rookie season, but I really do believe Beasley will be a starter for the Heat, and have a break out seasons by next year at the latest.


----------



## Dee-Zy

myst said:


> Quick search of google and I found this.
> 
> http://nbase.nba.com/web/guest/supp...ew&_EXT_MAIN_SUPPORT_topic=nba_scoring_system
> 
> Stands for NBA Stock Exchange.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like Wade is killing everybody because steals and blocks are worth 3 points each.


Yet TOs are -2 and he is turning the ball over quite a bit...


----------



## jokeaward

What a game!


----------



## NewAgeBaller

..


----------



## Dee-Zy

Damn it, how is NAB a legend and I am not? Booooo!

I can't believe you passed the 10k mark before me and I have been here 1 year longer than you.

Stop posting!


----------



## ChrisRichards

lol


----------



## NewAgeBaller

Dee-Zy said:


> Damn it, how is NAB a legend and I am not? Booooo!
> 
> I can't believe you passed the 10k mark before me and I have been here 1 year longer than you.
> 
> Stop posting!


Heat game threads. :yes:


----------

