# Kobe/Shaq Feud Up again



## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

It appers as if Shaq and Kobe had a verbal confrontation in Sunday's practice. Here's a link. Shaq/Kobe


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## Muffin (Feb 11, 2003)

This is gonna be one TOUGH year for Kobe! He's gonna have to be strong b/c I can see these issues breaking down many men. Serious legal issues in Colorado, possible family issues at home (although he and Vanessa "seem" happy when seen lately), and now on-the-job issues w/ Shaq. I don't think ANYBODY knows how this whole thing is gonna pan out. Will he stay with the Lakers after this season? Whew!


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

This is why Kobe needs to leave. Because playing with Shaq is a pain in the ***. I mean I swear this guy can never just bite his tongue, he just loves making a mountain out of a molehill. 

I just want everyone to know if you put your favorite superstar with Shaq and they started shining a lot, Shaq would complain and moan because he is supposed to be the biggest star around. 

The only problem with that Shaq is that when you aren't dedicated to your conditioning or getting surgery during the off-season, people will continue to question you. I know I will. He is an idiot. 

Sometimes I hope Kobe did leave, because the Lakers aren't winning titles w/o him. Malone, Payton and Shaq would not win the title this year. 

No Kobe=no title.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Not only can the lakers with Malone and Payton win a title without kobe. I think they are better off without his greedy, anti-team, circus attracting...***.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Not only can the lakers with Malone and Payton win a title without kobe. I think they are better off without his greedy, anti-team, circus attracting...***.


You're out of your mind. 

They won't win without him in the West. :no: :no:


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## Philo (Feb 13, 2003)

With the way Kobe looks this season they may be better off without him.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Shaq had a problem with Penny in Orlando and he has a problem with Kobe here. Kobe's been called the selfish one on this Laker team but Shaq's the only one who's publically stated how this is his team. I think all this who's team is it talk by Shaq is really childish and stupid quite frankly. Why does it matter who's team is it. What does that mean. They won't win a title with either guy if they don't get on the same page. 

Kobe said right in telling Shaq to don't tell me how to play my game. Every time the Lakers lose Shaq never takes responsibility he just said they lose because he doesn't get the ball. nevermind he's gained 40-50lbs since coming to LA and being badly outplayed by Duncan in the clincher. He always uses an excuse. I find it interesting that in an interview I saw Malone intimated that Shaq wasn't really hurt and that he needed to practice with the heel. 

Anytime the Lakers lose Shaq says its Kobe's fault. 

The Lakers won't win the title without a healthy Kobe. You can tell just by the preseason they don't have any athleticism on the wing really besides Kobe. George is really a non factor. Kobe is the one who'll have to score against the shot clock, who'll have to create the plays in the clutch as the clock winds down. 


Shaq by saying its his team really discounts others contributions. I'm hard pressed to tell a 30ppg scorer like Kobe that its my team. 

These Lakers won't be champions unless everyones on the same page if not than its a wrap no matter who's team it is. 

If its his team than Shaq let the team down and ought to come out and take the blame for last seasons failure. 

Telling Kobe to pass is ridiculous when he has scoring opportunities. GP is the pg thats his job, Kobe's is to score and defend. He no longer has to set the table no need in having to pg's on the floor. 

This is the stupidest thing to have pop up again at the stupidest time.


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## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

I'm glad to see Kobe's not just backing down and taking Shaq's ****. Honestly, Shaq needs to put a foot in his mouth. It gets old. He's now saying Kobe's been handed everything he's had by the media, nevermind the fact that he's being absolutely pounded by the media from a situation that, if it were virtually any other player, wouldn't be getting any kind of headlines whatsoever (not saying it's not serious by any stretch of the imagination, but it'd be a bit easier to handle if the media didn't make it a public spectacle because it's Kobe Bryant). Nevermind the fact that Kobe put on all kinds of muscle last year to try and help his team win another championship while Shaq was busy spending the summer waiting to get surgery on his toe so he'd be able to sit out preseason and gaining more and more weight. Nevermind the fact that Kobe spends more time in the gym working on his game and physiqe in one summer than Shaq probably has his entire career. Christ, O'neil, grow a pair and show a little humility.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

Does anyone agree with what Shaq said? This is Shaq's team, no matter how much love Kobe gets, and no matter how much Kobe scores, this is Shaq's team. The more touches Shaq gets, the better chance the Lakers have of winning. Looking at the Lakers three championships, Kobe and the rest of the team fed off Shaq, and not vice-versa like last season. Kobe got too caught up with putting points on the board, and forgot that the Diesel is the reason why he has three rings on his hand. Even though I agree with what Shaq said, it was a very improper way to deal with it, and like previously mentioned, it was very bad timing, both in terms of the number of days left, and in terms of Kobe being back with the whole squad. 

No matter what talent the Lakers have, if they don't feature Shaq in the offense, they will fall short once again. Shaq is just too damn good to ignore down in the post, and both Payton and Malone have been willing to sacrifice shots for Shaq, and Kobe has to do the same. With Kobe not at 100%, what Shaq said makes even more sense, because with Shaq getting a lot of touches, Kobe will have a huge amount of pressure taken off of him, and he will be able to come back to 100% at a steady pace. Shaq has always been right about this, and sooner or later Kobe will have to realize that he has to play second fiddle to one of the most dominant post players of all time.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The thing is Shaq still gets his touches. He always has. Kobe avg. 6.6 apg last year. He had better assists numbers than some PG's, If the role players hit their shots last year, this guy may have avg. 9+. 

You can't just give the ball to Shaq time and time again. He is not the same player he was 4 years ago. He is at least 30 lbs heavier, still a horrible FT shooter and it is hard to go to him down the stretch of games because he becomes fatigued. 

The reason why this is a bad thing, is because is he gonna gripe when Payton takes over down the stretch of a game or if Malone takes two or three elbow jumpers. 

Shaq is just selfish and a glory hog. He wants to be the greatest to ever play the game, but unfortunately when all you do is power to the basket, no one is going to call you that over skilled players like Wilt, Jordan and Kareem. 

And why doesn't someone tell Shaq to bring it on the defensive end every once in a while. Play some D and you will get the rock.


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## Brian34Cook (Mar 26, 2003)

I dont see why Shaq always has to be a excuse me *** over a game of basketball.. It may be his "job" to play but its just a game to me. Wether I score 50, get 30 rebounds, or 15 assists. I wouldnt really care. But then you have Shaq who complains over this stuff.. Shaq will get his touches aswell as everyone on the team..


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Shaq is such a hypocrit he says Kobe shouldn't use the season to get right at the teams expense, but isn't that what he's done for the past 2 seasons. He's been injured and outta shape the last 2 seasons to start and worked his way into shape each time. He still averaged 27ppg in each season not once taking a backseat.


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## Peja Vu (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Shaq is such a hypocrit he says Kobe shouldn't use the season to get right at the teams expense, but isn't that what he's done for the past 2 seasons. He's been injured and outta shape the last 2 seasons to start and worked his way into shape each time. He still averaged 27ppg in each season not once taking a backseat.


That is exactly what I was thinking.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rohawk24</b>!
> Does anyone agree with what Shaq said? This is Shaq's team, no matter how much love Kobe gets, and no matter how much Kobe scores, this is Shaq's team. The more touches Shaq gets, the better chance the Lakers have of winning. Looking at the Lakers three championships, Kobe and the rest of the team fed off Shaq, and not vice-versa like last season. Kobe got too caught up with putting points on the board, and forgot that the Diesel is the reason why he has three rings on his hand. Even though I agree with what Shaq said, it was a very improper way to deal with it, and like previously mentioned, it was very bad timing, both in terms of the number of days left, and in terms of Kobe being back with the whole squad.
> 
> No matter what talent the Lakers have, if they don't feature Shaq in the offense, they will fall short once again. Shaq is just too damn good to ignore down in the post, and both Payton and Malone have been willing to sacrifice shots for Shaq, and Kobe has to do the same. With Kobe not at 100%, what Shaq said makes even more sense, because with Shaq getting a lot of touches, Kobe will have a huge amount of pressure taken off of him, and he will be able to come back to 100% at a steady pace. Shaq has always been right about this, and sooner or later Kobe will have to realize that he has to play second fiddle to one of the most dominant post players of all time.


Get off Shaq's outta shape tip. He got all the touches last post season against the Spurs and got outplayed by Duncan. He didn't stand up after the game and say as the leader of MY team I take responsibility for being outplayed and costing us the series. He didn't say it was my fault I was outta shape and hurt most of the season which cost us homecourt advantage which could have helped us win the title. 

It was Kobe who played on a bum knee not missing any games, droping 40ppg for a whole month who even gave them a shot to win the title. 

The didn't lose the title last year because the offense ran through Kobe ,they lost because Shaq was outta shape and outplayed by Duncan for the 2nd season in a row. 

You must have forgotten Kobe led the Lakers in scoring a couple years back averaging bout 28 a game during title number 2 or 3. 

Shaq gets the ball plenty remember he sat the bench as Kobe led the team back from 25 in game 5 against the Spurs. Shaq was so outta shape and so being outplayed that Phil pulled him. 

The offense runs through Shaq most times because its the smartest way to play for any team. Anyone else who'd play with Shaq it'd be smart for him to get the ball 1st in the low post but that doesn't mean he's the only option thats effective. He often gets smothered and needs Kobe to open things up. 

Shaq hurt the team when it counted most Kobe played his heart out on a bum, knee and shoulder Shaq was the one who couldn't defend the post against Duncan. 

Place blame at his heavy feet. 

Kobe's a scorer he doesn't need to pass they have GP for that Kobe needs to score and create as he always does when the clock is running down and in the clutch as always. Shaq needs to score and defend the weakside WITHOUT FOULING by moving said heavy feet not coming down hard hackng folks. 

Shaq for once in his career came to camp in shape and wants to bust on Kobe for not being in shape. Funny the last 3 years he's been outta shape he never spoke of passing himself. 

Funny how things get when the tables get turned. 

He's the one who''s talking about it being his team and you call Kobe selfish. Show me somewhere in the quote where Kobe says its his team. 

So every time the Lakers lose we'll say its Shaq's fault since its his ship and give him all the credit when they win. That sounds about right.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I would have agreed in previous seasons that the lakers needed Kobe as much as they needed shaq.

But now that they have Malone and Payton...

Malone+Payton+Shaq> Shaq+Kobe

GP is the diffrence maker now. He will be able to score the points, and keep the big man happy. Stuff that kobe simply couldn't do. With Kobe it's not just that he tends to dominate the ball, it's his attitude. He never hangs out with the guys, he never really fosters a relationship with the rest of the team--I mean the article also points out how Kobe decided to come in on his motorcycle(stupid stupid stupid after what happened to JayWill) seperate from the team bus...what is that saying? It's saying I'm not part of the team, but I can just show up and do my thing anyhow.

And I don't know if any of you have seen how kobe looks right now, but he looks AWFULL!! He has no explosion. All he can do is jack up jumpshots. And once the season starts on tuesday, whoever is guarding him is going to play him for that and start blocking those shots. And the shot ain't falling either. What was he, 4-14 the other night? He's out of shape, out of rhythm and not traveling with the team...hmmm, that doesn't sound like someone who can do much for the lakers right now.

Kobe needs to take time off, get himself in gear and then come back when he can commit fully to the lakers. Right now he is hurting them more than he's helping.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

And no I don't think Shaq is going to have a problem with GP taking shots down the stretch. Shaq don't want it with GP. And anyways I think Shaq feels more comradery with GP and Malone than he ever did with Kobe. He respects both of them and he knows they both respect him. Which you can't say the same thing about Kobe.

Shaq still sees kobe as the pesky arrogant high schooler. And Kobe still thinks the team should be his and Shaq is a hinderance to his supposed greatness.

ps. I'm really happy this is happening already for the lakers. You guys are going to go down in flames before the christmas. It's hilarious.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I usually do agree with you, but in this case you are *flat out wrong* and I will leave it at that.


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

You KNOW I'm loving it


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> And no I don't think Shaq is going to have a problem with GP taking shots down the stretch. Shaq don't want it with GP. And anyways I think Shaq feels more comradery with GP and Malone than he ever did with Kobe. He respects both of them and he knows they both respect him. Which you can't say the same thing about Kobe.
> 
> Shaq still sees kobe as the pesky arrogant high schooler. And Kobe still thinks the team should be his and Shaq is a hinderance to his supposed greatness.
> ...


Yea I get the feeling Shaqs thinks of Kobe as this hotshot player who hopped on his train and is trying to take more credit than he should. With Payton and Malone, he sees guys who were successful players in the league when he was a rookie, and he has much more respect for them. Thats just the way I see Shaq. He seems to have a strong desire to win a title for Malone and Payton. But yet he milks injuries while Kobe was dying on the court without his help those first 12 games last season.


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## Duece Duece (Mar 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Yea I get the feeling Shaqs thinks of Kobe as this hotshot player who hopped on his train and is trying to take more credit than he should. With Payton and Malone, he sees guys who were successful players in the league when he was a rookie, and he has much more respect for them. Thats just the way I see Shaq. He seems to have a strong desire to win a title for Malone and Payton. But yet he milks injuries while Kobe was dying on the court without his help those first 12 games last season.






:yes:


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

I mean honestly, I cant imagine Shaq saying anything like this to Payton or Malone. He just respects them more.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

I wouldn't be suprised if Shaq, Kobe and Phil plan these little dramas each year. It happens every single season and the Lakers won titles 3 of those years.

Either the media and fans overblow it's importance or it's planned.


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## Sean (Jun 7, 2002)

I'm beginning the wonder the same thing JI.

But kobe is the wrong one in this latest issue. his oversensitivity (like Shaq's) is the reason why this became an issue. read the original statement made by shaq before yesterday...



> Attempting to play himself back after four months off, Bryant forced his shot through the weekend, understandable given his need to catch up. O'Neal said Friday night that it should end there, however, at least until his knee is healed.
> 
> "He's going to have to take his time," he said. "If he is going to be on the court, he has to make sure everybody else is involved and not really try to do too much until he's ready. But we're going to be fine."
> 
> ...


Kobe is frustrated and took it the wrong way. GP is telling him so before this latest BS.



> "He's kind of frustrated because he can't do the things he's done before, because of his knee," Payton said. "He's got to let it come gradually. I've tried to tell him not to try to do too much."


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Sean</b>!
> I'm beginning the wonder the same thing JI.
> 
> But kobe is the wrong one in this latest issue. his oversensitivity (like Shaq's) is the reason why this became an issue. read the original statement made by shaq before yesterday...
> ...


I fully agree. Maybe Shaq shouldn't have taken it to the press, but can anyone disagree with his assesment?


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>newmessiah10</b>!
> I usually do agree with you, but in this case you are *flat out wrong* and I will leave it at that.


I dont think he is. I usually agree with both of you guys but Future has a good point. I believe Shaq shouldn't have said those things he said, but it is the truth. 

This is SHAQ's TEAM!! 

I think one of the reasons Shaq is talking out loud now is because he actually has some teammates that can play good ball with him. He doesn't have to put up with Kobe's attitude in order to win games. Kobe has been a constant ballhog since he came to the team. He has always wanted his number of shots and he has always wanted the team to run through him. This Laker team works better when Shaq gets the ball every time down the floor, or every other time. Shaq is the guy. He is in shape and he is excited about working with two HOF players that want to win and play team ball. I think Shaq finally feels like he can say what he has wanted to say because he has great players now. Before all he had was Kobe and if Kobe wasn't happy the Lakers were no' going anywhere. Now he doesn't have to kiss Kobe's ***!!!! Kobe has the worst attitude and Shaq deserves to say this stuff because he has earned the right, similar to Charles Barkley. He has proven that he can perfrom at the highest level and be an unselfish team player. Kobe can too, but this is Shaq's team. If Kobe doesn't like it he can pack his bags and try to win a championship without Shaq.


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## rellim (Nov 12, 2002)

> And why doesn't someone tell Shaq to bring it on the defensive end every once in a while. Play some D and you will get the rock.


Unfortunately Shaq's philosophy on playing defense is "If the big dog isn't feed, the house doesn't get guarded". 

The real problem is he isn't quick enough to guard the likes of Duncan. Hell, if Garnett would grow some balls and mix it up in the paint with Shaq, he'd find so many easy scoring opportunities, he could put his perimeter game on hiatus.

Seems to me that Shaq has deep hatred for Kobe on a lot of levels. His comments are more personal than anything else. 

It's funny because Kobe's worked hard to sculpt his game since before high school, with constant media, fan and casual fan criticism. All Shaq is, is big and strong, he's done nothing to develope a real go to move in the post. He's lazy with a fat body and a fat ego to match.

I've seen games where Shaq has given up due to fatigue. Kobe's the source of the competitive spirit behind the Lakers.


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jemel Irief</b>!
> I wouldn't be suprised if Shaq, Kobe and Phil plan these little dramas each year. It happens every single season and the Lakers won titles 3 of those years.
> 
> Either the media and fans overblow it's importance or it's planned.


Exactly!!! This is what I'm thinking. Shaq loves to toy with the media. Knowing this, I think Kobe got with Shaq and decided to make this all up to get the media off the Kobe case on onto the basketball court.


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## INTELLECT (Nov 22, 2002)

yeah sure man I'm so sure this "lil feud" is gonna make everyone forget about kobe's legal troubles.


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## rellim (Nov 12, 2002)

If Shaq is a man, which he isn't, he'd have the guts to speak his mind, no matter who he's playing with. You can really take a good look into his character now that Payton & Malone are in Laker land. Now he has the heart to say the hateful things he's always wanted to say. He's basically a childish oaf. 

The fact is Shaq wins no championships alone, and he sure as hell won't win anymore if Kobe packs his bags. Kobe's the man who hits deep 3's to get you back in the game, Kobe's the one the Lakers call on when they need a big basket or a game winner, not Shaq. Kobe is NBA 1st -defensive team, is Shaq?

What you basically have here is a rift between a hardworking, strong willed, dedicated player, and a lazy, slacking egomaniac. 

In the West, the Lakers won't get past the 1st or 2nd round without Kobe Bryant because they have no scoring explosiveness, or intensity without him.


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## antibody (Apr 4, 2003)

That could be true about this whole thing. We all know Shaq just says what he wants at anytime. He doesn't care too much about the consequences. I'm not sure whether it has some truth or not. I am more likely to think it's true if someone like Derek Fisher or Karl Malone said such a thing.


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>INTELLECT</b>!
> yeah sure man I'm so sure this "lil feud" is gonna make everyone forget about kobe's legal troubles.


Did I say anything about forgetting? No, I dont think so. Maybe you should try reading my post instead of trying to read things into what I wrote.

This little feud has already decreased the number of Kobe trial updates on sports talk radio here in California that we would hear every 5 minutes. So their plan is working, and people are talking more about the "fued" than they are the trial coming into the start of the season.

Anything that can be done to detract from the trial is good for the Lakers and especially Kobe, so don't be so closed minded, or you will be proven to be a fool just as the media is.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rellim</b>!
> If Shaq is a man, which he isn't, he'd have the guts to speak his mind, no matter who he's playing with. You can really take a good look into his character now that Payton & Malone are in Laker land. Now he has the heart to say the hateful things he's always wanted to say. He's basically a childish oaf.




Sometimes in a professional relationship you don't speak you're mind because you realize that in order for things to work you have to be the better man and not say anything. This is what Shaq has tried to do. Give the man some credit. Did you hear him say anything about Kobe after the rape!! No, because Shaq knows when to pipe down. He will talk because he can!! When you are the biggest and baddest you should be able to talk. When you walk the walk you should be able to talk the talk.



> The fact is Shaq wins no championships alone,


And Kobe will? Pleeeeeaze...not going to happen. Shaq has a better shot at winning championships with a shotty team than Kobe does.



> and he sure as hell won't win anymore if Kobe packs his bags.


Careful what you wish for it may come true.



> Kobe's the man who hits deep 3's to get you back in the game, Kobe's the one the Lakers call on when they need a big basket or a game winner, not Shaq. Kobe is NBA 1st -defensive team, is Shaq?


Kobe is overrated on defense as is. Everyone knows a big man like Shaq makes people take shots they are not supposed to. Shaq has helped make Kobe better than he is. Kobe is a good defender, but does he stop people. Bowen stops his sorry butt, I don't see it working the other way around. Kobe was a better defender 3 years ago when he tried on defense more. Last year he wanted to score.



> What you basically have here is a rift between a hardworking, strong willed, dedicated player, and a lazy, slacking egomaniac.


Shaq is in shape this season and he carries this team. Kobe is part of the duo, but Shaq is the centerpiece.



> In the West, the Lakers won't get past the 1st or 2nd round without Kobe Bryant because they have no scoring explosiveness, or intensity without him.


Are you kidding? They wont get past 1st Round without Kobe? You need to go back to the Fantasy Basketball board son! Maybe you should go back to the JUCO forum and post because you are out of line and out of knowledge. It hurts me to see *edited* post in this forum.

:mrt:


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> > Originally posted by <b>Sean</b>!
> >
> >
> > Kobe is frustrated and took it the wrong way. GP is telling him so before this latest BS.
> ...



I totally disagree Jemel. Why is he saying these things. Kobe's the one taking the blame for them losing two games in the preseason essentially. And thats bogus. Kobe took ten shots against the Kings it wasn't on the offensive end where they were getting beaten. 

And he wants Kobe to be more of a passer. Sure that makes sense to get GP more shots and Shaq more touch's. GP isn't used to playing with a guard like Kobe either. Thats an adjustment he's gonna have to make. 

Kobe's essentially been the pg for this team for the last 4 seasons. Kobe's used to creating the whole offense for everyone. Kobe's not suddenly gonna take a backseat and let GP set the table for him when he doesn't have to let him. 

The Lakers prblem isn't with Kobe's leg not being strong its with GP and Malone not cutting off penetration on defense.

Thats the Lakers biggest challenge they'll get enuff pts no matter who runs the offense. 

To try and make Kobe take a backseat until he's healthy is a horrible move. Thats would get others comfortable with a style that won't be productive with winning. Kobe needs to be him even if not fully healthy so everyone can adjust their games. 

If he pulls back ,waits until everyopne gets comfortable than decides when his legs are 100% than come strong its gonna kill the chemistry. He needs toi play how he plays and let others adjust. 

GP and Shaq seem to want Kobe to back his game off period healthy or not but its most beneficial if Everyone alters their games to accomodate others. Kobe's not just a guard who's gonna sit back and get what GP dishes out. Kobe's a player that controls offenses much like GP so they should be sharing those duties with GP palying off the ball some also.


This thing is gonna get really ugly and I got a feeling PJ is telling Kobe to do things that GP and Shaq don't want him doing.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

> So every time the Lakers lose we'll say its Shaq's fault since its his ship and give him all the credit when they win. That sounds about right.



No no no no no. Here's the thing:The Lakers win three championships, but just who has gotten more love and respect on the team than anybody? When the Lakers sucked at the beginning of the season, and Shaq came back, who started dropping 40 points a game, and got all the glory for their amzing comeback? The answer is Kobe Bryant. Every time the Lakers lose, who is the first to get blamed? Shaq. When the Lakers win, who is the first to get the credit? Kobe. So this is a hypocritical statement, because in your explanation you mentioned the reason why the Lakers lost was because Shaq was out of shape, but then you go on and praise Kobe like he didn't do anything wrong. That is exactly why I hate Kobe Bryant. He has always been Mr. Perfect on the basketball court, because everyone always mentions his eye poppin stats, and says "Well Kobe's scoring 40 a game and dishing out 7 assists, so it isn't is fault." Kobe puts up spectacular numbers game in game out, but his points and assists are at the expense of Shaq. Shaq is the most dominant player in the history of the game, while Kobe is one of the most talented players in the history of the game. So what matters most, talent or dominance? The most talented team almost never wins the championship, while the team with the most dominant player almost always does. Do I need to mention the dominant players on recent championship teams? Let's see, MJ for three years, Hakeem gor two years, Duncan for a year, Shaq for three years and Duncan again. Hmmmmmm, see a pattern here? MJ, Hakeem, and Duncan were all the unquestionable leaders to their respective teams, and so was Shaq in their three title years in a row. Just because Kobe scored more in the regular season doesn't mean that Shaq was playing second fiddle to Kobe. I always enjoy watching playoff basketball, and in the three years I saw the Lakers butcher the rest of the league, Shaq was the man, even though Kobe scored more in the regular season. Think about how many touches Kobe Bryant has to have shooting 30 shots a game, and dishing out 7 assists. That is a lot of damn touches, and if Shaq had the opportunity to touch the ball that much, he would either score 60, or score 40 with 10 assists. What I'm saying is that Shaq does more with less, meaning he still puts up close to 30 PPG with about half the touches Kobe gets. And in the playoffs last year, being a Spurs fan, I watched all six games, and saw that Kobe jacked up too many shots, regardless of how many points he scored. Did Kobe get Tim Duncan, David Robinson, or Malik Rose in foul trouble by shooting fade away 20 footers? Hell no. And that's the thing with Shaq, is that he can get the opposing team's big men in trouble with ease. If Kobe stopped shooting 20 footers, and feed the ball into Shaq, then the Spurs big men would have all gotten in foul trouble, leaving Kevin Willis and Malik Rose to protect the basket. And that's why Shaq needs the ball more than Kobe. Shaq can do so many more productive things with touches than Kobe can, and I witnessed that last year against the Spurs first-hand.

So every time the Lakers lose, it is because Shaq is over-weight and gets tired too easily, and every time the Lakers win it is because the God-like Kobe Bryant scored 40 points and dished out 7 assists? Yeah, and that sounds right.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rohawk24</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again your whole premise makes no sense. Who has gotten MVP in all those title years not Kobe ,Kobe wasn't the one who got all the credit it was Shaq as he was supposed to. But you act as if he doesn't deserve the blame for last season. Much like last season Kobe didn't handle his own business this off season he didn't rehab and get in shape. But Shaq did the exact same thing. Shaq had a solid but not up to par season and got outplayed by Duncan for the second year in a row. It wasn't Kobe's fault last season it was more Shaq's fault if like you say he carries the burden of the team but you conveniently want Kobe to accept responsobility for what exactly. He averaged 30ppg about 7 assists and 7 rebs just about. He dropped 40 for a month. 

And against the Spurs was the one trying to lead the team back from behind. Shaq wasn't playing well on either end. 

Shaq is the most dominant player in the league and prior to last season Kobe got plenty of blame he's the one always labeled selfish by the media not Shaq and you say Kobe doesn't get blame. 

You say you hate Kobe that makes your whole post invalid. You hate him because he's MR. Perfect how is that analysis. I don't hate Shaq nor Kobe I just get sick of Shaq telling everyone who'll listen how this is his team and then not accept the responsibility when things don't go well and he gets outplayed. If as you say its Shaq's team than Kobe deserves to take no responsibility. 

If I say its my team that to me is a selfish statement where in the text does Kobe make that claim.He doesn't he just contends quite correctly that he knows how to play his guard spot being 1st team all nba supports that wouldn't you say. 

Shaq is in a dream world if he thinks the Lakers can become champs without Kobe thats insane. GP and Malone are old. GP doesn't play the same great defense anymore and Malone is a jumpshooter that line-up has no slasher whats so ever. Kobe is more key than ever. Shaq is the biggest piece of the puzzle the MOST VITAL but won't win anything like he has never in the past without Kobe. 

He'd be exposed by Duncan even worse if Kobe left and thats the whole crux of the matter.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

We were worried about GP and Malone not fitting in and now it is Shaq and Kobe going at it....again.  Kobe is doing his usual thing. Jacking up jumpers, going 1 on 5, and ignoring wide open teammates. Shaq is doing his thing as well. Pretending to love Kobe and say all the right things until the Lakers lose. Then it is everyone's fault but his. I'm sick and tired of this crap. I think the team would be better off trading one of these guys. Trading Kobe makes sense because he has had legal troubles, is about to become a FA, and is playing in an offense that is not suited to his talents. However, I could see us becoming the Oakland Raiders if we were to trade him. We'd have very little in the way of young talent and could become old overnight. It's really a no win situation because Kobe never plays within the offense and Shaq takes offense to every little thing. PJ is probably longing for the days of Scottie and MJ.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Does anyone here think if Shaq was always in shape and made more than 55% of his free-throws that he would get the ball a lot more than he does. I think if he was a 75% free throw shooter Hack-A-Shaq would be gone for sure, but he continues to brick the throws, so I would have a hard time passing to him also.

I mean he gets a lot of dunks, but lately (I mean in the playoffs) he struggles finishing on jumphooks and his explosion is nowhere near where it needs to be or has been.

As for Kobe shooting too much in the exhibition games, I can almost guarantee Phil telling him to, because he needs game practice, not scrimmage practice. I imagine we will see him passing more till he gets healthy. But this is what GP is for, how about some playmaking for him and getting Kobe open, not just lobs at the basket. I think GP needs to do some penetrating and dishing too.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> I totally disagree Jemel. Why is he saying these things. Kobe's the one taking the blame for them losing two games in the preseason essentially. And thats bogus. Kobe took ten shots against the Kings it wasn't on the offensive end where they were getting beaten.
> ...


It has nothing to do with "blaming" someone or even wins or losses. The Lakers could have easily won both games with a few different bounces and the criticism would still be valid. What Malone or Payton are doing on D is irrelevant to Kobes game. The reporter probably asked him about Kobe, not Malone and Paytons D. The fact remains that Kobe was not looking like a all-star player in either game. He didn't try to take it to the basket or even make moves to get open jumpers. He kept shooting these awkward looking jumpers that didn't even resemble his form from last year. I don't see how telling Kobe to be agressive as if he was 100% will benefit the team. When he's good to dominate again the team and Kobe can eaisly adjust.

It's a little bit different than Shaq with his toe. First he's a low post player that can utilize positioning and requires less athleticism to dominate. Not only that the Lakers didn't really have no choice, they have plenty of other options now.

And Kobes point about keeping his mouth shut when Shaq was injured etc. carries no water because as a leader he probably should of said something. Only Phil was getting on his case. Again outside of sending his message thru the press I think Shaq is right.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

> Again your whole premise makes no sense. Who has gotten MVP in all those title years not Kobe ,Kobe wasn't the one who got all the credit it was Shaq as he was supposed to. But you act as if he doesn't deserve the blame for last season. Much like last season Kobe didn't handle his own business this off season he didn't rehab and get in shape. But Shaq did the exact same thing. Shaq had a solid but not up to par season and got outplayed by Duncan for the second year in a row. It wasn't Kobe's fault last season it was more Shaq's fault if like you say he carries the burden of the team but you conveniently want Kobe to accept responsobility for what exactly. He averaged 30ppg about 7 assists and 7 rebs just about. He dropped 40 for a month.



What exactly is your point 8edited*? Shaq is fat, bla bla bla. Kobe is great bla bla bla. That's fine if you don't agree with what my "premise" is, but if you just have to criticize it, then you come up with something valid. Who doesn't know Shaq was out of shape last year? Stop mentioning that, we all know, so stop stating the obvious. 

My point is that Shaq is the most dominant player in NBA history. Kobe takes too many shots, so he needs to get the ball to Shaq more, because that is their recipe for sucess. I really don't know what the hell the Jazzy is trying to say. What's YOUR point *edited*? That Shaq is fat, and he is the reason they lost last year? You think that because Kobe put up amazing stats last year, he was not part of the reason? Well you are *edited* if you think that. Kobe lost the series just as much as Shaq did last year, but you are obviously one of the (fans) of Kobe Bryant who thinks he is perfect, so it wasn't his fault at all that they lost. Your premise is......well, there is no premise. You haven't said anything about why strategically Shaq is the blame, except for "He is fat...duh....oh yeah, he's fat." I explained that if Shaq got the ball more like in past years, he would have got David Robinson in foul trouble, Malik Rose in foul trouble, Kevin Willis in foul trouble, and eventually Tim Duncan in foul trouble. So what's your argument? "He averaged 30ppg about 7 assists and 7 rebs just about." So....... does that mean Kobe was perfect? No. 

If you don't agree with me, fine, because millions of people don't agree with what I said/say. But when you criticize me like an idiot, and act like you are superior, when all you are doing is stating stats, well, I get upset. Don't tell me my premise makes no sense when it makes absolutely perfect sense. This isn't a theory; It's a fact. The Lakers win with Shaq getting more touches than he did last year. It's a fact. That's not my individual guess, that's not my individuall opinion, that part is a fact. I sat and watched Shaq drop 40 points and 20 rebounds almost every game, while Kobe took advantage of the fact that he was getting one-on-one coverage. That's a fact. The premise isn't wrong, because it's a fact. It's what all the anaylists have said over the years, it is what every fan has said over the years, and it is exactly what Phil Jackson preaches. It's not wrong.

Anyway, going back to the original discussion, Shaq is right about this being his team. Kobe shot the ball too much during the playoffs, and just because he averaged 7 assists means jack crap to me. Kobe Bryant is a freakin good player, but he has gotten too much of the glory for their sucess, based on what I have personally seen and heard over the years. And as far as Shaq, how many seasons has he come into a season in great shape? Maybe once during the three-peat, so the fact that Shaq was over-weight wasn't the sole reason the Lakers lost last year, like Jazzy wants to believe.

Jazzy, I hate Kobe Bryant, correct, but that doesn't stop me from seeing the same damn thing you do. I saw him take too many horrible shots last year, and that is regardless of whether I hate him or not. Kobe has been seen as near perfect for so many years, so why not Shaq? Kobe does not get criticized as much as Shaq, and when the Lakers lose, people like you blame it on Shaq being fat. And another hypocritical statment by the all knowing Jazzy1:



> I don't hate Shaq nor Kobe I just get sick of Shaq telling everyone who'll listen how this is his team and then not accept the responsibility when things don't go well and he gets outplayed.



I get sick of Shaq telling everyone to listen. Hmmmmm, sounds like you are favoring Kobe Bryant. Your whole point is worthless then, just like you labeled mine for favoring Shaq. And just because it is labled as Shaq's team, does that mean Kobe can go out there and suck, but Shaq should deserve the responsibility? That's dumb. All "Shaq's team" means is that he is the number one option on offense. That doesn't mean he deserves all the praise, or all of the criticism. But all I know is that Shaq got blamed more than anybody for their loss, and you are a perfect example of it. The Lakers didn't lose because Shaq was fat. Shaq has been over weight in the past, yet he still dominated three years in a row. Kobe got use to having the team by himself at the beginning of the season, so he forgot that he had the best post player in the history if the game, and that's what it amounted to. If Kobe Bryant deserved any praise, he would have led the Lakers to the championship while Shaq was "over-weight." So that's why Kobe deserves the blame, because that was his chance to get some credit, but the Lakers lost, and Kobe proved that he can't take the burden like Shaq did. And by the way, do you remember how sorry the Lakers were when Kobe didn't have Shaq? That's right, they sucked. Shaq does, and did need Kobe all along, but Kobe needs Shaq a hell of a lot more than Shaq needs Kobe, and that was proven by the first half of the season. They were one of the worst teams in the NBA at that point, so don't even bring up the who needs who argument, because that too, is a proven fact against your theories. 

That's all I freakin got on this topic. Criticize at will if you want to, but I have given enough logical reason as to why Shaq needs the ball more. It is not a theory, it is a fact. The evidence is in the three championships they won. And that's it. Jazzy, there is absolutely nothing you can say to change my opinion. Your points are based on stats, and Shaq being over-weight, which is absurd, since they won three freakin championships with him being overweight. 

Give Shaq the damn ball, and the Lakers will win. Simple as that.
If Shaq doesn't get the ball, then it is the whole team's fault for not following the game plan. If he does get the ball, then everyone on the Lakers deserves credit, and not just Shaq. That is a proven statement, so it can't be proven wrong Jazzy1.
THE END

no need for name calling


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## rellim (Nov 12, 2002)

Shaq said that he was gonna be Kobe's pillow, and comfort him. Now he's talking sideways about Kobe hogging the ball in preseason? If you're gonna criticize or come down on a teammate, do it in private. The problem is that Shaq wants all of the attention. Penny started to get more of the limelight in Orlando, and Shaq pissed and moaned like a little girl, then ran to the Lakers. Kobe comes in, and becomes a larger figure than he is, and Shaq can't stand it. Shaq is the one instigating this media beef. Go and say it to the mans face Shrek, don't run and cry to the media. 

Give him credit? Any person with any kind of character should be able to keep their mouth shut and support a teammate going through a tough situation. *edited*

Minnesota would easily beat the Lakers w/o Kobe even with two aging "superstars" and a suspect supporting cast. If the Spurs somehow met them in the first round w/o Kobe the Lakers lose, same with the Mavericks. Payton & Malone didn't even address the Lakers biggest need this offseason. Consistent peremiter shooters. 

Shaq hasn't walked the walk in a long time. In fact Shaq is lazy and fat. Season after season goes by and he adds nothing to his game but weight. What you have is a still out of Shape (380 to 360 does not constitute being in shape). Do you want to "give him credit" getting in shape after being dominated in the playoffs by TD last season? Kobe gets in shape because he wants to. He has more desire to win in one of his fingers than Shaq does in his entire body.

O'Neal's attitude is not that of a winner. A winner doesn't refuse to play defense if he's not getting the ball. That's the attitude of a loser and a selfish person.

You really must be an *edited* to infer that Shaq's been the bigger person in these situations. If you payed attention to anything you'd recognize that Shaq is always the dude who starts this bull****. Kobe's always took the high road until now.

"There's more to life than whose team this is. But, this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court. It also means no more blaming others for our team's failure or blaming staff members for not over-dramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, my team doesn't mean only when we win. It means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."

"Leaders don't beg for contract extensions and negotiate some $30-million plus deal in the media when we have two future Hall of Famers playing here basically for free. A leader would not demand the ball when you have three of us besides you, not to mention the teammates that he's gone to war with the past three years.... By the way, you also don't threaten not to play defense and not to rebound if you don't get the ball every time down the floor."

"I don't need Shaq's advice on how to play hurt. I've played with IVs before ... with a broken hand, a sprained ankle, a fractured tooth, a severed lip and a knee the size of a softball. I didn't miss 15 games because of a toe injury that everybody knows wasn't that serious."

Truth hurts man....

no need for name calling


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rellim</b>!
> Shaq said that he was gonna be Kobe's pillow, and comfort him. Now he's talking sideways about Kobe hogging the ball in preseason? If you're gonna criticize or come down on a teammate, do it in private. The problem is that Shaq wants all of the attention. Penny started to get more of the limelight in Orlando, and Shaq pissed and moaned like a little girl, then ran to the Lakers. Kobe comes in, and becomes a larger figure than he is, and Shaq can't stand it. Shaq is the one instigating this media beef. Go and say it to the mans face Shrek, don't run and cry to the media.


Where is Penny now? In washed up land with his washed up career. Penny should have gotten the limelight...



> Give him credit? Any person with any kind of character should be able to keep their mouth shut and support a teammate going through a tough situation. *edited*


He has supported him. He hasn't mentioned anything about the trial. He is talking about basketball, and that is his right to talk about basketball because he is part of a team. It's not his fault Kobe is going to trial for raping some girl. Truth hurts man....



> Minnesota would easily beat the Lakers w/o Kobe even with two aging "superstars" and a suspect supporting cast. If the Spurs somehow met them in the first round w/o Kobe the Lakers lose, same with the Mavericks. Payton & Malone didn't even address the Lakers biggest need this offseason. Consistent peremiter shooters .


Minnesota hasn't even played one regular season game with their new crew and already they can beat the Lakers!!! This is unproveable so I won't argue this point, but if you believe that you are *edited*


> Shaq hasn't walked the walk in a long time. In fact Shaq is lazy and fat. Season after season goes by and he adds nothing to his game but weight. What you have is a still out of Shape (380 to 360 does not constitute being in shape). Do you want to "give him credit" getting in shape after being dominated in the playoffs by TD last season? Kobe gets in shape because he wants to. He has more desire to win in one of his fingers than Shaq does in his entire body.


Shaq was 380? I don't think he has even been that heavy in his life...Shaq is 360 now...try less than 340 or more like 335. He is in good shape this year if you have watched any of the preseason games. You're posts get stupider every time. You are just proving you are *edited* by posting that Shaq played at 380. 



> O'Neal's attitude is not that of a winner. A winner doesn't refuse to play defense if he's not getting the ball. That's the attitude of a loser and a selfish person.
> 
> You really must be an *edited* to infer that Shaq's been the bigger person in these situations. If you payed attention to anything you'd recognize that Shaq is always the dude who starts this bull****. Kobe's always took the high road until now.


Shaq starts everything...that is why Kobe can't say it to his face and has to tell ESPN over the phone. Kobe is just as bad as Shaq.



> "There's more to life than whose team this is. But, this is his team, so it's time for him to act like it. That means no more coming into camp fat and out of shape when your team is relying on your leadership on and off the court. It also means no more blaming others for our team's failure or blaming staff members for not over-dramatizing your injuries so that you avoid blame for your lack of conditioning. Also, my team doesn't mean only when we win. It means carrying the burden of defeat just as gracefully as you carry a championship trophy."
> 
> "Leaders don't beg for contract extensions and negotiate some $30-million plus deal in the media when we have two future Hall of Famers playing here basically for free. A leader would not demand the ball when you have three of us besides you, not to mention the teammates that he's gone to war with the past three years.... By the way, you also don't threaten not to play defense and not to rebound if you don't get the ball every time down the floor."
> 
> ...


I agree with some of what Kobe says because Shaq should have come in shape the last few years and Shaq probably should have been less vocal. But Shaq has the right to voice his opinion and this is HIS team!!!! Like it or not, the Lakers don't win without Shaq. Take Shaq off this team and they can't compete against the Spurs or the Mavs. Take Kobe off and this team still might win. 

:mrt:

no need for name calling


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>compsciguy78</b>!
> Take Kobe off and this team still might win.


They couldn't win last year with both Shaq AND Kobe. What makes you think they'd win without one of them? At best GP and Malone cancel out Kobe and you are basically left with the same team that you had before.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> They couldn't win last year with both Shaq AND Kobe. What makes you think they'd win without one of them? At best GP and Malone cancel out Kobe and you are basically left with the same team that you had before.


]


If you watched last nights game you will know why. GP and Malone bring new elements to the court and help team play. GP can run the break and control the tempo. Malone can add another post up threat as well as a fast break finisher. The Lakers are going to be good with or without Kobe this year. They have enough talent to win it all without Kobe this year.


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## Sean (Jun 7, 2002)

*B. Shaw earning his keep*

he creative insults and wicked taunts ceased Tuesday, perhaps because the combatants finally heeded their teammates and bosses, or perhaps because Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant simply had run out of words after a 48-hour verbal brawl that rattled their Lakers teammates and embarrassed the franchise.

In the relative calm of the morning, before anyone could get near a microphone or television camera, the framework for a reconciliation apparently was laid.

In a quiet meeting orchestrated by former teammate Brian Shaw, O'Neal and Bryant spoke face-to-face before the team's shootaround. Shaw, now a team scout and consultant, is one of the few people close to both players. Although details of their discussion remain private, team officials were highly encouraged by what they heard.

Later, O'Neal and Bryant each addressed the team, as did Karl Malone. 

http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,200~29583~1729762,00.html


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## Duece Duece (Mar 28, 2003)

No Kobe = No Titles, *PERIOD*


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