# Top 10 best defensive teams of all time



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

While looking at the discussion regarding Ben Wallace and Dikembe Mutombo, and seeing some comments about the 2003-2004 Detroit Pistons, I became curious about this subject and did a little research on it. I found a thread on another forum that talked about this and made a list about it. I'll make a quote of the original post that had the list and ask the same thing here that was being asked there. Now the list itself isn't in order, but what order would you guys put it in and why? Do you think there's a team missing from the list and a team that doesn't belong here? 

P.S. Long read, and I didn't make a poll out of this since technically this more about the list already presented here and what you guys would change and why. 



> I haven't seen a thread like this from anyone else. The 10 best defensive teams of all-time. Here we see 10 teams who were regarded as the best ever on defense.
> 
> This thread is more of an appreciation. These teams played defense like it was supposed to be played. All 10 great, and all 10 terrorized offenses when they came to face them.
> 
> ...


Discuss.


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

Before I even read the list I was coming in here to say 04 pistons


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## Mrs. Thang (Apr 14, 2011)

After the Rasheed Wallace trade the 03/04 Pistons held teams to something like 78 ppg. They held 5 teams in a row under 70 and did it 10 times for the year (not including 6 more in the playoffs). I think the previous regular season record was 4 games. They held New Jersey to 56 points in one playoff game. Easily the best defensive team I've ever seen. Their championship that year is kind of viewed as a fluke, which is really unfair. They were dominant.


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

I think they proved it wasn't a fluke by getting back to the finals against the Spurs. Even though they were defeated


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

Mrs. Thang said:


> After the Rasheed Wallace trade the 03/04 Pistons held teams to something like 78 ppg. They held 5 teams in a row under 70 and did it 10 times for the year (not including 6 more in the playoffs). I think the previous regular season record was 4 games. They held New Jersey to 56 points in one playoff game. Easily the best defensive team I've ever seen. Their championship that year is kind of viewed as a fluke, which is really unfair. They were dominant.


That team was a true championship team. Don't know why they were viewed as a fluke. They were a strong title contender for a good 3-4 yrs.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

I think the 1999 Spurs should be up there. They had Duncan and the Admiral: The Twin Towers. Although the 2005 Spurs were a great defensive team, the '99 team had a younger David Robinson.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

It's a ****ing greek tragedy that Duncan has never won DPOY...


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## 27dresses (Nov 5, 2009)

The Bad Boy Pistons. Best 2nd half defensive team that I've seen


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

I view the 2003-04 Pistons as a fluky title team in the sense that they don't fit the mold of championship teams over the history of the league, not that they were any less dominant or unworthy of the title. It's a fluke to build a team without a superstar, without an all-time great player and win a ring. Doesn't take anything away from them, if anything it makes it more impressive and difficult to duplicate.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

hobojoe said:


> I view the 2003-04 Pistons as a fluky title team in the sense that they don't fit the mold of championship teams over the history of the league, not that they were any less dominant or unworthy of the title. It's a fluke to build a team without a superstar, without an all-time great player and win a ring. Doesn't take anything away from them, if anything it makes it more impressive and difficult to duplicate.


So out of all the teams in the history of the NBA that have won an NBA title, what team do you think comes the closing to doing what the Pistons did? Which has won a title without any definite superstar/all star, or has any other team for that matter ever done that before?


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

XxIrvingxX said:


> So out of all the teams in the history of the NBA that have won an NBA, what team do you think comes the closing to doing what the Pistons did? Which was win a title without any definite superstar/all star, or has any other team for that matter ever done that before?


1979 Sonics

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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

no love for Downtown Freddie Brown (or more seriously, DJ)?


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

e-monk said:


> no love for Downtown Freddie Brown (or more seriously, DJ)?


Johnson's a worthy hall of famer, I just wouldn't call him a superstar or all-time great player just like I wouldn't call Billups, Hamilton, Prince or either Wallace a superstar or all-time great (even though Chauncey and/or Big Ben will end up in the HOF). Lots of similarities in those two teams beyond the lack of superstar. Both made back to back Finals and won one, both built around defense and perimeter shooting. 

Aside from them, there's really no other comparable champion in league history.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

agreed - the Bad Boys were close but Zeke's a tad too close to transcendent for them to fit the model


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

If we had to pick teams right now, would you guys take the Bad Boys Pistons or the Wallace Pistons? And this is for both in terms of defense, and then in terms of just the teams overall.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

As a Laker fan, I've seen what the 04 Piston and the 08 Celtic were capable of first hand. While the Pistons were good defensively, that 08 Celtics team was a nightmare. What they did to us in the Finals still doesn't sit right with me.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

XxIrvingxX said:


> If we had to pick teams right now, would you guys take the Bad Boys Pistons or the Wallace Pistons? And this is for both in terms of defense, and then in terms of just the teams overall.


the bad boys didn't have the interior D of the Wallace boys (for which they made up with just plain thuggery) but in Dumars and Rodman they had+++ perimeter D - I guess it depends on what rules they're playing under


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

e-monk said:


> the bad boys didn't have the interior D of the Wallace boys (for which they made up with just plain thuggery) but in Dumars and Rodman they had+++ perimeter D - I guess it depends on what rules they're playing under


Today's rules?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Where's the 94 sonics? Payton, Gill and McMillan were the best ball hawking trio of guards on the same team ever. Full court pressed all game long. I think they broke either the record for turnivers created or team steals. 

On a similar note, what was the last team that full court pressed all game long? The 98 celtics?


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Jamel Irief said:


> Where's the 94 sonics? Payton, Gill and McMillan were the best ball hawking trio of guards on the same team ever. Full court pressed all game long. I think they broke either the record for turnivers created or team steals.
> 
> On a similar note, what was the last team that full court pressed all game long? The 98 celtics?
> 
> ...


...did that benefit them at all?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

The '04 Pistons and the '08 Celtics were filthy defensively.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

I'd just like to chime in and lament that every Celtics season since 2008 have been derailed by injury. They legitimately could have threepeated if Garnett, Perkins, and to a much lesser extent Powe hadn't all blown out their knees in one 18-month span.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Bogg said:


> I'd just like to chime in and lament that every Celtics season since 2008 have been derailed by injury. They legitimately could have threepeated if Garnett, Perkins, and to a much lesser extent Powe hadn't all blown out their knees in one 18-month span.


Hahaha I've read this exact post from you at least a dozen times


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Luke said:


> Hahaha I've read this exact post from you at *least a dozen times*


Probably more. It never stops being frustrating that they were thisclose in '10 and '12, only to be derailed by Perkins' knee, Bradley's shoulder, and Green's heart, and were DOA in the playoffs in '09 and '11 because of KG's knee, Shaq's leg, and Rondo's foot (plus his elbow after Wade swept the leg [don't even try to deny it Jace]).


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## Krstic All-Star (Mar 9, 2005)

How are the '80s Celtics teams not in there?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

they're too old


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Krstic All-Star said:


> How are the '80s Celtics teams not in there?


I think a single player scoring 63 points on them hurt their image.


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## Krstic All-Star (Mar 9, 2005)

XxIrvingxX said:


> I think a single player scoring 63 points on them hurt their image.


He dropped 60 or thereabouts against the Bad Boys too


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Krstic All-Star said:


> He dropped 60 or thereabouts against the Bad Boys too


I actually meant that in a sarcastic way. I honestly don't know why none of the 80s Celtics are on the list.

Has Jordan ever actually dropped 60 points, or 50 for that matter, on the Bad Boy Pistons?


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

XxIrvingxX said:


> I actually meant that in a sarcastic way. I honestly don't know why none of the 80s Celtics are on the list.
> 
> Has Jordan ever actually dropped 60 points, or 50 for that matter, on the Bad Boy Pistons?


Jordan had a 61 point game and a 59 point game against the Pistons.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Russell's Celtics are up there and Wilt dropped multiple 50+s on them - fwiw


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

hobojoe said:


> Jordan had a 61 point game and a 59 point game against the Pistons.


Okay who hasn't Jordan had 50 point games against?


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Okay who hasn't Jordan had 50 point games against?


A lot of Western Conference teams. I believe he did it against every team in the East except Chicago obviously. 


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## Krstic All-Star (Mar 9, 2005)

XxIrvingxX said:


> I actually meant that in a sarcastic way. I honestly don't know why none of the 80s Celtics are on the list.
> 
> Has Jordan ever actually dropped 60 points, or 50 for that matter, on the Bad Boy Pistons?


In that case, well played


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Mrs. Thang said:


> After the Rasheed Wallace trade the 03/04 Pistons held teams to something like 78 ppg. They held 5 teams in a row under 70 and did it 10 times for the year (not including 6 more in the playoffs). I think the previous regular season record was 4 games. They held New Jersey to 56 points in one playoff game. Easily the best defensive team I've ever seen. Their championship that year is kind of viewed as a fluke, which is really unfair. They were dominant.


Was that great defense or bad offense.

People need to realize, yes.. with PEDs, the players are an inch bigger and about 20 lbs. heavier with equal leaping ability.. but:

> Side-to-side agility suffers defensively
> Offensively, guys like Luol Deng actually get massive praise for being able to do what most players from 1984 or 1991 could do... stick an open 18 footer consistently. 
> Post fundamentals, even in 04, were gone or had dwindled down to few guys who brandished those abilities.
> The number of players who could finish over contact in a clogged lane had dwindled... hell, by 1999 I'd say that that was the case

By the early 00s, you'd seen the effect of early entry over a long period of time in the NBA in the lack of offensive fundamentals. 

I'm far from saying that I'd want to watch guys with no athleticism who were fundamentally sound.. the Van Arsdale brothers aren't appealing to me either, nor is Kirk Hinrich. But I'd say from 1980, when the league recovered from the dark days with the arrival of Magic and Larry, to the mid 90s... there were so many more players who brought both to the table than you've seen in the last 10-15 years. 

The 04 Pistons faced one team who could do anything on offense.. that team had a busted up Karl Malone and Gary Payton's corpse.. Shaq and Kobe flat hated each other and even though Shaq shot 66% in the 04 Finals, Kobe insisted on having Reggie Miller/Paul Pierce glory days on the deep perimeter.

Put the 04 Pistons against the 91 Chicago Bulls and see how good they are... or aren't. 

That god forsake anomaly is the most disgusting thing I've had to watch in my NBA life in terms of championship teams. They remind me of Karl Malone or the 94 Rockets. After all the hot girls you knew got married... there was a decent girl who was the "best one left"... that doesn't make her hot.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Talk about different talent in the league. To me.. the 04 league is one of the weakest in my 36 years on earth. I'd put it right there with 04-07, 99, 94, 79, 78.

1996 was even weaker than the early 90s. Look who was gone or no longer close to the player they were from 91 to 96:

Isiah
Bird (no longer who he was by 91, GONE by 96)
Magic
Ewing (Knicks were a mockery against the Bulls in the playoffs, not the case just 3 years earlier)
Olajuwon (no way you can argue he was who he was just two years earlier)

And who was added? Shaq. That's it. Add the 96 Raptors and Grizzlies and I'd say that if the Bulls won 68 in 92, a team just as good as the 92 Bulls should have won 74 or MORE in 96. There was just nothing there compared to 91 and 92.. particularly 91.

So the Bulls were 4th in defensive PPG in 92 and 3rd in 91, they'd probably easily have been first in 1996. 

One of the biggest fallacies in Chicago sports, and there are many... is that the 96 Bulls would beat the 92 or 91 Bulls in a 7 game series. If you're even SLIGHTLY willing to be honest with yourself, you'd realize that Jordan and Pippen of 91 would just be too many steps ahead of the 96 version. "But ironhead... Dennis Rodman was so much better than Horace Grant!" Dennis Rodman was 35 years old in 1996. By 1996, the offense of NBA frontcourts had dramatically declined from 91 and 92. 

The 96 Bulls are the 3rd best defense... in CHICAGO history. And that's being nice enough to not get into the 1990 Bulls!


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

this is true


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

e-monk said:


> this is true


Agreed, that was some very good insight we saw there.

Hoodey what team would you say is the best defense team ever?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Hoodey said:


> Was that great defense or bad offense.
> 
> People need to realize, yes.. with PEDs, the players are an inch bigger and about 20 lbs. heavier with equal leaping ability.. but:
> 
> ...


Overall of course they get smashed by the Bulls, but defensively? Defensively they're better than the Bulls. 

Lets not make up fake stories here. The 04 Pistons were easily a top defensive team of all time. If they had 1 marquis player they wouldn't get as underrated as they do in hindsight.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

R-Star said:


> Overall of course they get smashed by the Bulls, but defensively? Defensively they're better than the Bulls.
> 
> Lets not make up fake stories here. The 04 Pistons were easily a top defensive team of all time. If they had 1 marquis player they wouldn't get as underrated as they do in hindsight.


Once again, you're viewing them through the lens of a league in which their road to a championship was an imploding Laker team with Karl Malone's knee blown out and Gary Payton looking about a decade older than Tim Duncan just looked.. and he looked old.

Who else did they beat? A 4-2 win over a 38 year old Reggie Miller? What was tough to defend about that? 

The Bulls in 91 had to deal with...

Magic at age 31
Isiah at age 29
Barkley at age 27
Ewing at age 28

All in the same postseason.

I'm telling you now, the 04 league is one of the most overrated things in the history of the NBA... and you've lost your mind OR MORE LIKELY you just weren't THERE in 1991... if you think that the 04 Pistons were better defensively than the Doberman Defense. Teams used to struggle to get the ball past the time line!! Are you aware of that? That used to spark 18-2 fourth quarter runs by the Bulls...

And total teams do matter... IF.. instead of Kobe chucking shots on the perimeter at 38%, you have Michael and Scottie going straight to the hole and dunking, you leave that series with a much different view of the Detroit Pistons.

I'm sure you have fantasies of Rip Hamilton staying in front of Michael Jordan, but his game wasn't a series of spin fakes with a fadeaway from three like Kobe... his game was to dribble by you at light speed for a 6'6" guard, get a head of steam and HOPE that someone would get in his way so he could decapitate them at the basket. Ben Wallace and Rasheed Wallace weren't stopping Michael OR Scottie from putting on a dunk fest. AND THEN what's your vision of those Pistons? Just another really good defense that eventually had to stand there and watch the Michael and Scottie fourth quarter show. By game 2 Michael and Scottie would have been drawing defense and hitting Horace for wide open dunks. 

And as for Detroit scoring on Chicago... Chicago's defense would start to look REALLY legendary after two things...

1. Michael on Hamilton - LMFAO... for the mockingly terrible ending Hamilton would suffer... see.. "Reggie Miller trying to score on a YOUNG Michael Jordan."

2. PIPPEN on Billups - What, you thought Pippen could guard John Stockton for 94 feed when he was practically old, but a young Scottie Pippen couldn't guard Chauncey Billups and take Detroit's offense completely apart?

In a 7 game series, the Bulls would have been winning games 107-85, the Bulls defense would look legendary and Detroit's D would look like swiss cheese.

You picked the wrong Pistons team dude...


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Hoodey is part John with his tangents all over the place, part Big Amare (for the old BBFers) with his relentless homerism and combative nature, and part PauloCatarino with his nostalgic views on the league. Definitely knows his stuff though.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Reggie Miller was the 04 Pacers? News to me.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

hobojoe said:


> Hoodey is part John with his tangents all over the place, part Big Amare (for the old BBFers) with his relentless homerism and combative nature, and part PauloCatarino with his nostalgic views on the league. Definitely knows his stuff though.


Wait was this the guy who tried to argue that Jordan was a better passer than Lebron? Or was that someone else?


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## Mrs. Thang (Apr 14, 2011)

Hoodey said:


> I'm telling you now, the 04 league is one of the most overrated things in the history of the NBA... and you've lost your mind OR MORE LIKELY you just weren't THERE in 1991... if you think that the 04 Pistons were better defensively than the Doberman Defense. Teams used to struggle to get the ball past the time line!! Are you aware of that? That used to spark 18-2 fourth quarter runs by the Bulls...


The 04 Pistons did the same thing. Lindsey Hunter (while a terrible offensive player) is easily the best ball-pressure guard of the last 10-15 years, and Mike James Before He Got Payed played very hard defensively that year. They would sub-in together for 5 minutes stretches and full-court press with Ben Wallace trapping along the timeline. It was a hugely effective use of bench players that never really took off because the league neutered perimeter defense the next year with the hand-checking crackdown.

The 04 season wasn't great, but it was much better than 99-03. People talk crap about that Lakers team now, but they did beat prime Duncan and prime Garnett in consecutive series.

04 Pistons also yielded 10 less points per 100 possessions than 91 Bulls, but the comparison is strained. 91 Bulls were still playing with the illegal defense rules while the 04 Pistons were the first team to take full advantage of the new quasi-zone looks that were legal.

People like to talk like the league was so much more talented offensively in the 90's, but the illegal defense rules played a huge part in that. Can you imagine Lebron playing in a league where defenders aren't allowed to shade off of their man to pack the paint?

The rest of the post is drivel. I don't think anybody suggested that 04 Pistons would beat the 91 Bulls in a series. They were an average offensive team at best.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Hoodey said:


> Once again, you're viewing them through the lens of a league in which their road to a championship was an imploding Laker team with Karl Malone's knee blown out and Gary Payton looking about a decade older than Tim Duncan just looked.. and he looked old.


The Pistons defense played a big role in the Lakers imploding. They held a team with a 31 year old Shaquille O'Neal and 25 year old Kobe Bryant to 82ppg over 5 games. That's two of the top 10 players and scorers of all-time in their prime. You're clearly selling that Pistons defense short.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I like the 2008 Celtics over the 2004 Pistons though. I find it hard to compare teams across eras with such drastic rule changes.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Sir Patchwork said:


> The Pistons defense played a big role in the Lakers imploding. They held a team with a 31 year old Shaquille O'Neal and 25 year old Kobe Bryant to 82ppg over 5 games. That's two of the top 10 players and scorers of all-time in their prime. You're clearly selling that Pistons defense short.


Shaq still played incredibly well in that series. He averaged 26 points and 11 rebounds, and the Pistons had a difficult time stopping him (apart from game 3 of course where no one on the Lakers could do anything). But they were able to shut down everyone else in that series. Keep in mind though that Karl Malone also had knee issues that entire series. Before that he was playing very well for the Lakers in the playoffs.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

That 04 Pacers team was more than just old Reggie Miller. They had a 20/10 O'neal, prime Ron Artest and a very very good Stephen Jackson. Not to mention great role players like Tinsley, Foster and Croshere. Don't sell them short.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Agreed, that Pacers team was very good. The 03-04 season may not have been loaded with talent compared to other basketball seasons but they had their fair share of very good teams.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Floods said:


> Reggie Miller was the 04 Pacers? News to me.


I'm reading Reggie as on the Pacers via bb reference lol...


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Wait was this the guy who tried to argue that Jordan was a better passer than Lebron? Or was that someone else?


I didn't here.. one argument I made on realgm that went over pretty well was this...

You can't compare Lebron passing as being favorable to Michael AT ALL... 

It's not like Lebron can SCORE like Jordan lol. Michael Jordan never lost series where he shot 35% like the 07 Finals. Michael never lost series where he averaged a very Scottie Pippen esque 17.8 PPG like the 11 Finals.

So, if Lebron was SCORING like MJ AND passing like he does, you'd be on to something.

But, when you pass because you're NOT scoring like MJ, you're just making the choice to defer rather than to do the kind of dominating Lebron SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING in 2011.. and by the way this year, when Tony Parker and Tim Duncan's corpse NEVER should have taken the Heat 7 games and never WOULD HAVE taken the 92 Bulls 7 games. 

Check the 91 Finals brother.. in the same series, here's Jordan:

31.2 PPG 55.8% FG 11.4 APG

You show me a series where Lebron was scoring at 31.2 PPG on 55.8% FG and then dishing over 11 APG in a Finals. You won't find it.

Don't confuse, "oh man, he scores like Michael AND dishes all these assists cause he's just that amazing" with, "his scoring is a notch below Michael, and at times when he's pulling his Houdini act as a scorer, he racks up a bunch of assists deferring to teammates Michael would never defer to." 

I'm still waiting for the series Michael Jordan lost where he averaged 17.8 PPG. 

If you're gonna start a post with "is this the guy".. then be prepared to show me stuff like that. If not, you're just another guy who I'm convinced WASN'T THERE in 1991 and wouldn't KNOW how good that team was.. and your vision of Michael Jordan is likely the commercially mega-popular 1996 version who has lost about 2.5 steps from 89 Jordan. 

Your big bad claim about Lebron's passing is like saying, "did he say Adrian Peterson was as good of a receiver as Roger Craig was? Doesn't need to be. He's too busy taking the damn ball and running over people."

When you lose a game to Dallas in the NBA Finals, nobody runs up to you and says, "false result! You see, it is true Dallas scored more points.. but Lebron had more assists than Dirk! So really... Miami wins."

This is like a conversation with new-era Paxson-ite Bulls fans who overrate rebounding...


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Mrs. Thang said:


> The 04 Pistons did the same thing. Lindsey Hunter (while a terrible offensive player) is easily the best ball-pressure guard of the last 10-15 years, and Mike James Before He Got Payed played very hard defensively that year. They would sub-in together for 5 minutes stretches and full-court press with Ben Wallace trapping along the timeline. It was a hugely effective use of bench players that never really took off because the league neutered perimeter defense the next year with the hand-checking crackdown.
> 
> The 04 season wasn't great, but it was much better than 99-03. People talk crap about that Lakers team now, but they did beat prime Duncan and prime Garnett in consecutive series.
> 
> ...


You're not getting it.. sure 99 sucked. Everyone knows that. But you think that if the Detroit Pistons played the 01 Lakers in the Finals, we walk away with the same vision of Detroit? On THAT team, Kobe was still talked into the idea that the offense had to start with Shaq and work out to him. And, unlike the 04 version of Shaq, in 01... Ben Wallace wasn't getting in Shaq's way. The vision we have of Detroit if that same team played LA in 01 is probably just a slight notch below how we currently think of the 01 Sixers defensively...

It's all about who you play. Mike James and Lindsey Hunter weren't stopping the Bulls from advancing the ball. 

Much like Doug Christie and Bruce Bowen... Lindsey Hunter PLAYED AGAINST MJ and the Bulls as they were aging and Hunter was YOUNG. Jordan and the Bulls were thoroughly unmoved. 

Detroit got lucky the played a bunch of teams that reflect the watered down nature of the league the last 15 years, if not 17 years... and then an imploding Laker team with Malone's knee blown out and Payton looking like my dad.. who is dead. 

It's not about a Bulls homer thing. If the Pistons played the 86 Celtics, 87 Lakers, 2003 Spurs or probably even other teams like the 96 Magic, you just have a whole different vision of that team. 

People always say what you said about illegal defense, but I'd point to the many many cases where somehow, miraculously, when MJ got to the paint there were 2 or more guys waiting and he still made them look silly. Pippen too.

These guys today are track stars and football players .. and that's great. I'd say only Kobe, who is not the athlete MJ, Shaq, Kareem and other greater players were in terms of a combo of size and explosiveness has played the game with the same fundamentals that were displayed by top athletes in the 90s. 

Lebron is Lebron. Like Wilt, he has the ability to do anything.. and then when it's time to do it, sometimes he does... sometimes he leaves you with this WTF look on your face as he craps himself. Lebron and MJ and Bird and Magic and Shaq and Wilt all have/had the ABILITY to never let the 2011 Finals happen of the 1969 Finals happen... the difference was... MJ, Bird and Magic would just... never let them happen. Wilt and Lebron would let them happen.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Sir Patchwork said:


> The Pistons defense played a big role in the Lakers imploding. They held a team with a 31 year old Shaquille O'Neal and 25 year old Kobe Bryant to 82ppg over 5 games. That's two of the top 10 players and scorers of all-time in their prime. You're clearly selling that Pistons defense short.


Shaq shot 66%. Kobe wouldn't give him the ball and shot 38%... Karl Malone played as much as Slava Medvedenko and Gary Payton was old as crap man.

I'm not saying the 04 Lakers are like the 93 Hawks, but it's not a win against a marquee champion type team.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Shaq still played incredibly well in that series. He averaged 26 points and 11 rebounds, and the Pistons had a difficult time stopping him (apart from game 3 of course where no one on the Lakers could do anything). But they were able to shut down everyone else in that series. Keep in mind though that Karl Malone also had knee issues that entire series. Before that he was playing very well for the Lakers in the playoffs.


Kobe wouldn't give Shaq the ball too lol... that was a huge part of it. Shaq has Ben Wallace sealed and here is Kobe wanting to show the world his quadruple head spin fake from three...


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

King Sancho Fantastic said:


> That 04 Pacers team was more than just old Reggie Miller. They had a 20/10 O'neal, prime Ron Artest and a very very good Stephen Jackson. Not to mention great role players like Tinsley, Foster and Croshere. Don't sell them short.


Magic, Worthy, Scott, Divac, Perkins
Isiah, Dumars
Barkley
Ewing

The guys you are naming are answers to, "hey, tell me about a GOOD basketball player."

The guys I just named are either significantly better for the role they played on their team.. or basketball gods lol.. see the difference?


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Yes! It was him! Oh happy day!



Hoodey said:


> I didn't here.. one argument I made on realgm that went over pretty well was this...
> 
> You can't compare Lebron passing as being favorable to Michael AT ALL...


Yea actually you can. Lebron is a guy who his known for his abilities to make others better. Jordan isn't. 



Hoodey said:


> It's not like Lebron can SCORE like Jordan lol. Michael Jordan never lost series where he shot 35% like the 07 Finals. Michael never lost series where he averaged a very Scottie Pippen esque 17.8 PPG like the 11 Finals.


Jordan never went to the finals at age 22 against a legendary team. Jordan never went up against a team in the finals that had the defensive tools to stop him. And Lebron isn't a scorer like Jordan, so I don't see where you're going with this. 



Hoodey said:


> So, if Lebron was SCORING like MJ AND passing like he does, you'd be on to something.
> 
> But, when you pass because you're NOT scoring like MJ, you're just making the choice to defer rather than to do the kind of dominating Lebron SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING in 2011.. and by the way this year, when Tony Parker and Tim Duncan's corpse NEVER should have taken the Heat 7 games and never WOULD HAVE taken the 92 Bulls 7 games.


Lebron passes because it's what he loves to do. He's a very unselfish player and doesn't take nearly the amount of shots that Jordan does. He makes plays for others, that's his biggest strength. It's something that he's been doing since high school. How is it suddenly because he can't score like Jordan?

And why shouldn't the Spurs have taken the Heat to seven games? The Heat were still a heavily flawed team. 



Hoodey said:


> Check the 91 Finals brother.. in the same series, here's Jordan:
> 
> 31.2 PPG 55.8% FG 11.4 APG
> 
> You show me a series where Lebron was scoring at 31.2 PPG on 55.8% FG and then dishing over 11 APG in a Finals. You won't find it.


You show me a series where Lebron holds the ball anywhere close to the amount of times that Jordan does and/or shoots the ball at the rate Jordan does. Go ahead, I'll wait. 



Hoodey said:


> Don't confuse, "oh man, he scores like Michael AND dishes all these assists cause he's just that amazing" with, "his scoring is a notch below Michael, and at times when he's pulling his Houdini act as a scorer, he racks up a bunch of assists deferring to teammates Michael would never defer to."


What are you talking about? Great three point shooters, guys capable of scoring inside, and PF's who could shoot the three, Jordan had the same kind of teammates Lebron did. Oh wait, I'm sorry no he didn't. He also had a superstar in Pippen on his team, something Lebron didn't have. And above all of this, when did I ever claim Lebron was a better scorer? 



Hoodey said:


> I'm still waiting for the series Michael Jordan lost where he averaged 17.8 PPG.


I don't see how the scoring average of a point forward makes him worse than a scoring guard. 



Hoodey said:


> Your big bad claim about Lebron's passing is like saying, "did he say Adrian Peterson was as good of a receiver as Roger Craig was? Doesn't need to be. He's too busy taking the damn ball and running over people."


That didn't make the slightest amount of sense.



Hoodey said:


> When you lose a game to Dallas in the NBA Finals, nobody runs up to you and says, "false result! You see, it is true Dallas scored more points.. but Lebron had more assists than Dirk! So really... Miami wins."


You're right, but here's the thing I'm not getting. What does that have to do with my claim that Lebron is a better passer? (Which is correct btw).


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Hoodey said:


> Kobe wouldn't give Shaq the ball too lol... that was a huge part of it. Shaq has Ben Wallace sealed and here is Kobe wanting to show the world his quadruple head spin fake from three...


But I loved that move!!! They said he would make it eventually and he did!

...right?


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Hoodey said:
> 
> 
> > Your big bad claim about Lebron's passing is like saying, "did he say Adrian Peterson was as good of a receiver as Roger Craig was? Doesn't need to be. He's too busy taking the damn ball and running over people."
> ...


When are you going to learn that just because you don't understand something that's fairly easy to follow doesn't mean it doesn't make sense?


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

hobojoe said:


> When are you going to learn that just because you don't understand something that's fairly easy to follow doesn't mean it doesn't make sense?


You mean like telling the difference between never hearing of someone before and forgetting their name?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

XxIrvingxX said:


> You mean like telling the difference between never hearing of someone before and forgetting their name?


that's almost like the difference between having heard about something one time and actually really knowing about something


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

e-monk said:


> that's almost like the difference between having heard about something one time and actually really knowing about something


Oh yea that's another one i could use thanks emonk


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## Pablo5 (Jun 18, 2013)

I witnessed first hand the 04 Pistons shut teams down. I will never forget a couple of the Nets players jumping up and down after scoring 71 against the Pistons. That team was rock solid and they played that way from the starting PG to the lonely C that was deep on the bench.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Hoodey said:


> Was that great defense or bad offense.
> 
> People need to realize, yes.. with PEDs, the players are an inch bigger and about 20 lbs. heavier with equal leaping ability.. but:
> 
> > Side-to-side agility suffers defensively


Not particularly, no. There were players in your childhood whose lateral quickness was best measured by sundial. I think Rick Mahorn's lateral quickness was officially measured using a calendar. (This is the one thing about my age that I'm grateful for, I actually remember the 70s and 80s. Because unlike you young'uns I was there.)



Hoodey said:


> Offensively, guys like Luol Deng actually get massive praise for being able to do what most players from 1984 or 1991 could do... stick an open 18 footer consistently.


Only by idiots because his one "skill" (and the reason for the scarequotes is that the inability to shoot from beyond 16'-18' isn't a "skill" it's a weakness) is the one thing that perimeter players should never be doing unless there's no other choice. Also Deng is a pretty terrible long two shooter, so I'm not sure where you got the idea that he was good at it. 

However, regardless, the average offensive possession last year produced 1.06 points, meaning for that mid-range jumper to be a good shot for a perimeter scorer it had to go in at a 53% clip. Deng's actual shooting percentage in that range where he's "showing up the stupid athletes that don't know how to play basketball" with his _Olde Tyme Basquetteballe Skylls_? 35%. Put another way, if you're an NBA team, you _want_ Bulls possessions to end in a Luol Deng mid range jumper. That's a successful defensive stand. (And this has been the biggest change in the last fifteen years, the amount of thought that goes into defense.) A shining example of this are the 2012 & 2013 Celtics, one of the best mid range shooting teams ever. And one of the worst offensive teams in the NBA as a result.



Hoodey said:


> > Post fundamentals, even in 04, were gone or had dwindled down to few guys who brandished those abilities.


An even bigger reason for this is that traditional post offense can be brutally slow. Look at AL Jefferson, he of the post moves that people ooooh and aaaaah over. And it takes him forever to get a shot off. It slows down the entire offense and doesn't necessarily produce more efficient results than perimeter scorers playing the game the right way. Plus, of course, unless you think that style points matter, the important part of post offense is that it involves higher percentage shots, but if you can get the same results by taking your defender off the dribble, why does it matter _how_ you score your points at the rim?



Hoodey said:


> > The number of players who could finish over contact in a clogged lane had dwindled... hell, by 1999 I'd say that that was the case


No. Just no.



Hoodey said:


> Put the 04 Pistons against the 91 Chicago Bulls and see how good they are... or aren't.


I hate to be the one to break the news to the newly adolescent Hoodey, but the '91 Bulls never faced a defense like the '04 Pistons. The '04 Pistons literally changed the rules of basketball as the NBA immediately went back to strict enforcement of the handchecking rules. In my long life they were one of the best defensive teams I've ever had the privilege to watch.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Yea actually you can. Lebron is a guy who his known for his abilities to make others better. Jordan isn't.


This is, and has always been crap. Michael Jordan averaged 11.4 APG in a Finals against Magic. I would also say mere dominance makes your teammates better. Were Rick Fox, Robert Horry and Derek Fisher not better for the presence of Shaq dunking on 3 guys? What happens when you have a great EFFICIENT scorer who can also pass, albeit passing is not the best thing they do? 

The defense gets pulled in to stop that scorer and the spacing is better for everyone else. 

The Bulls also did not run an isolation offense with Jordan on the ball. They did from 87-89 when Collins was there, and in 70 games where MJ started at PG, he averaged over 10 APG, while also averaging over 30% on great FG%.

The question that begs to be asked is this.. from 91 on, when Scottie Pippen is now mature and also a very good passer for his position, and when you have a bunch of players who can hit an open shot, the triangle offense and you're winning titles and NOT losing to teams like Dallas... do you need to ask MJ to average 11 APG like he did in the 91 Finals or like he did in 70 starts from 87-89 at the one position? No... his dominant scoring was more than enough. 

Jordan made his teammates better.. what did you think that the John Paxson barrage of jumpers at the end of the 91 Finals was? How do you think Paxson and Kerr got to take their game winning shots (defense focused on Jordan, in Kerr's case.. a pass from.. Jordan)? In the playoffs, when defenses focused too much on Jordan, you'd see countless passes FROM Jordan, to a wide open Horace Grant for dunks and easy layups. See, game 2, 1991 NBA Finals.

This, "Jordan doesn't make his teammates better" crap is just a regurgitation of the same crap that Boston and LA media men were putting out there in 1988 when they knew it was only a matter of time before he tore their idols down. You do realize he once confronted the exact media members who wrote that in a press conference right? Asking them in 1992 about the "crap you guys wrote."... They were unwilling to argue back with him. The SAME guys... 



> Jordan never went to the finals at age 22 against a legendary team. Jordan never went up against a team in the finals that had the defensive tools to stop him. And Lebron isn't a scorer like Jordan, so I don't see where you're going with this.


Yes, you're right. At age 22, Jordan was playing a team that was SEVERAL notches better than the 07 Spurs.. the 86 Celtics of Bird AND McHale AND Parish AND Johnson AND Walton. Five hall of famers, four in their prime. Jordan's best teammate at the time was probably Orlando Woolridge. So he lost. BUT... it was VERY clear he was the best player on the floor. And I'll never fault anyone for that. In 2011, Lebron lost, but he was NOT the best player on the floor. That was Dirk. 

You really are overrating the 2011 Mavericks and 2007 Spurs. Jordan, in Lebron's place, easily beats Dallas. Against San Antonio, I never expected Lebron to win.. just not to shoot 35%. Yes.. take Lebron out of the 2011 Finals.. add a guy going for 31.2 PPG on 55.8% FG and that's a Heat win.

As for Lebron not being a scorer like MJ, that's exactly my point. What wins late in playoff games is SCORING. Getting a bucket on every possession for your team, or making it seem that way. Had Lebron done that, Miami beats Dallas.

For you not to get where I'm going with this is remarkable. Whoever scores the most points wins the game... so.. if MJ and Lebron are unbelievable scorers, fine.. give Lebron credit for more assists. But when Lebron is passing simply because he CANNOT score on double and triple teams like MJ did, he's just choosing to do something easier because he can't do the harder thing (dunk on triple teams with a series of scoring moves to meet any defense). 

You call it "making your teammates better." I call it.. at the moment at which the opposing defense is saying, "dominate us if you can Lebron," Lebron remembering his 17.8 PPG in the 2011 Finals and saying, "maybe passing to Mike Miller is a better idea."



> Lebron passes because it's what he loves to do. He's a very unselfish player and doesn't take nearly the amount of shots that Jordan does. He makes plays for others, that's his biggest strength. It's something that he's been doing since high school. How is it suddenly because he can't score like Jordan?
> 
> And why shouldn't the Spurs have taken the Heat to seven games? The Heat were still a heavily flawed team.


The Heat were a flawed team. And the Spurs were a team without a top 25 player all time on their team in his actual prime. Duncan is ancient and Tony Parker probably isn't even a top 50 player all time. In the meantime, Lebron joined forces with two players whose PER the previous season was in the mid 20s.. figure it out. Oh, we should feel sorry for him because he couldn't play with Bosh AND Wade AND still have money left over for a great defensive center?? 

It's the same as Magic.. the sympathy routine. In 1991, we were all supposed to feel sorry for Magic because even though Jordan only had one hall of fame teammate (Pippen), Magic didn't get to have Worthy AND Kareem lol...

The problem with players who can't score like Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem in his prime of primes, Kareem, etc. because they are pass first players is this...

What if you're on a team without great scorers?

Michael Jordan can win with Worthy and Kareem or with Wade and Bosh.. guys who can score who you just have to pass the ball to.

The difference is... Jordan could have joined scorers notches below Wade and Bosh and made a serious run. Magic or Lebron? They need scorers to pass to. MJ did not. He could pass to guys if the defense overplayed him. Or, he could just take the opposing defense on. You put MJ on a team with Gary Payton and Dikembe Motumbo, two players who were great because of their defense, not possessing great scoring, and he probably wins. When you're a pass first guy, you'd win with Payton and Motumbo? 

Also.. when you can score on MJ's FG%, scoring a lot is always a good thing. Same with Shaq.. same with Kareem.. 



> You show me a series where Lebron holds the ball anywhere close to the amount of times that Jordan does and/or shoots the ball at the rate Jordan does. Go ahead, I'll wait.


Jordan was an efficient scorer.. if he was scoring efficiently, why shouldn't he hold the ball a lot and score a lot? 

Oh... that's right, he's supposed to let his teammates do so too, right? The problem in 1990 was that Scottie Pippen was too young and he and Horace were not ready. MJ played well enough to win.. Scottie and Horace did not. 

In the 1990 ECF, here are Jordan's numbers:

32.1 PPG 7.3 RPG 6.1 APG 2.1 SPG 0.6 BPG 46.7% FG 87.5% FT

But he just didn't get Scottie Pippen into the game enough, right?

Here are Pippen's numbers from the decisive game 7. *Just so you know, he played 42 minutes.. so don't act like he left early with an injury:*

2 points 
4 rebounds 
2 assists
1 steal
0 blocks
1-10 FG (10%)
0-0 FT

Guess MJ just didn't have the sense to share the ball enough huh?

So there's your difference. The 2011 Heat lost BECAUSE Lebron did not play well... the 1990 Bulls lost because Jordan played perfectly well enough for them to win and Scottie and Horace simply were not ready to play like the players they became later in the 91 season. 

By the way, in that game 7, Horace Grant had 10 points on an amazingly terrible 3-17 FG. Jordan's fault for not sharing enough I guess. 

See, before bb reference, this info wasn't there 10 years ago and it was harder to argue with people like you who just don't have any idea what you're talking about. 




> What are you talking about? Great three point shooters, guys capable of scoring inside, and PF's who could shoot the three, Jordan had the same kind of teammates Lebron did. Oh wait, I'm sorry no he didn't. He also had a superstar in Pippen on his team, something Lebron didn't have. And above all of this, when did I ever claim Lebron was a better scorer?


Wait, Lebron didn't have a superstar on his team in 2011 when he lost to the Mavericks? After Lebron and Dirk, Dwyane Wade wasn't the best player in the series? 

What's your theory with Pippen? That he was so legendary that MJ almost had to be able to score because of all of the triple teams Scottie drew? Scottie was a pretty good scorer one on one with the ball and without any space created for him on a possession by Jordan. He was hardly Shaq or even Dwyane Wade. 





> I don't see how the scoring average of a point forward makes him worse than a scoring guard.


Dude, don't give me point forward crap when you're trying to be the best player of all time. When you're trying to be the GOAT, you do whatever your team needs. If your team needs you to come down and get a bucket on almost every possession in the 4th, that's what you do. You don't hide behind a position created by Paul Pressey and Chris Mullin (in part). 



> That didn't make the slightest amount of sense.


Why give a guy credit for excelling at a secondary skill when the other guy excels at the primary skill. Scoring is more important than assists. The team with the most points wins, whether the other team has less assists or 25 more assists..



> You're right, but here's the thing I'm not getting. What does that have to do with my claim that Lebron is a better passer? (Which is correct btw).


In the playoffs this year, Lebron averaged a whopping 0.8 more APG than Jordan at the same age. That's what's so hilarious.

Being better at a secondary skill is meaningless when the other guy is better at the primary skill. 

It's like saying, "well, Michael Irvin is better than Jerry Rice. He doesn't catch the ball better, but he's a better blocker." Blocking, like assists, are important. As important as catching the football or scoring in basketball? No.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

E.H. Munro said:


> Not particularly, no. There were players in your childhood whose lateral quickness was best measured by sundial. I think Rick Mahorn's lateral quickness was officially measured using a calendar. (This is the one thing about my age that I'm grateful for, I actually remember the 70s and 80s. Because unlike you young'uns I was there.)


So, Joe Dumars and Dennis Johnson didn't cut off spots better than 6'6" players playing today? 



> Only by idiots because his one "skill" (and the reason for the scarequotes is that the inability to shoot from beyond 16'-18' isn't a "skill" it's a weakness) is the one thing that perimeter players should never be doing unless there's no other choice. Also Deng is a pretty terrible long two shooter, so I'm not sure where you got the idea that he was good at it.
> 
> However, regardless, the average offensive possession last year produced 1.06 points, meaning for that mid-range jumper to be a good shot for a perimeter scorer it had to go in at a 53% clip. Deng's actual shooting percentage in that range where he's "showing up the stupid athletes that don't know how to play basketball" with his _Olde Tyme Basquetteballe Skylls_? 35%. Put another way, if you're an NBA team, you _want_ Bulls possessions to end in a Luol Deng mid range jumper. That's a successful defensive stand. (And this has been the biggest change in the last fifteen years, the amount of thought that goes into defense.) A shining example of this are the 2012 & 2013 Celtics, one of the best mid range shooting teams ever. And one of the worst offensive teams in the NBA as a result.


I get the a mid range jumper is the worst shot you can take. Guess what. A great defense is going to try to take away post offense, drives to the rim and open threes. Sometimes, after a good defense gets done operating, the best thing you GET is a wide open jumper. If you hit that thing at a high rate, you soften up other shots. If you don't, they give it to you all day and continue to take away the post, the paint and three. 

Larry Bird today would be softening up a lot of areas of the court for the Boston offense. 



> An even bigger reason for this is that traditional post offense can be brutally slow. Look at AL Jefferson, he of the post moves that people ooooh and aaaaah over. And it takes him forever to get a shot off. It slows down the entire offense and doesn't necessarily produce more efficient results than perimeter scorers playing the game the right way. Plus, of course, unless you think that style points matter, the important part of post offense is that it involves higher percentage shots, but if you can get the same results by taking your defender off the dribble, why does it matter _how_ you score your points at the rim?


A terrible case. You sound like a bad lawyer who knows he's full of crap.

Citing Al Jefferson is a reason why post offense isn't good to run through .. AL JEFFERSON. 

It's just like the 90s. Alonzo Mourning was the Al Jefferson of that day and his post moves seemed to take forever.

But.. the failings of Jefferson and Mourning diminish the idea of running post offense through Hakeem or Shaq how?

The problem is, the centers of today just aren't as good and the coaching is even worse. As Wooden aged, his disciples gave way to guys who do things the Don Nelson/Mike D'Antoni way. That's why you have legions of high school coaches who can tell you everything about the motion offense but wouldn't know the first thing to do with Lew Alcindor if he walked into their gym and said, "I wanna play." Case in point... D'Antoni and Howard. Case in point... the Lakers actually providing good post coaching and what they were able to do with Bynum and Gasol.. who are many notches below Hakeem Olajuwon. 




> No. Just no.


Who is dunking over people like MJ and Pippen did? Who is dunking over contact like Shaq was? 



> I hate to be the one to break the news to the newly adolescent Hoodey, but the '91 Bulls never faced a defense like the '04 Pistons. The '04 Pistons literally changed the rules of basketball as the NBA immediately went back to strict enforcement of the handchecking rules. In my long life they were one of the best defensive teams I've ever had the privilege to watch.


Really? The 91 Pistons, while not quite as good as 1990 were still better than the 04 Pistons.

Oh, one other issue... they could flat out beat the crap out of you and flagrant fouls might draw a regular foul call.

You can argue that this shouldn't be allowed, but the fact is, it WAS allowed and MJ and Pippen still beat them. So, if they can overcome clotheslining from the 91 Pistons, I'm sure MJ would be fine with Richard Hamilton in his face.

Oh, and another thing.. MJ would blow by Hamilton with ease.. so .. what are you saying..

BEN WALLACE is going to stop him at the rim? Hakeem used to duck to avoid confrontations in the air with MJ, he used to dunk on Ewing and Motumbo with ease... David Robinson also ducked him more than once.. but BEN WALLACE is going to stop him? 

Ben Wallace was not David Robinson in his prime bro.. he was what you get when you look around and there is no David Robinson or Hakeem Olajuwon and all that's left is... BEN WALLACE. 

Check 1:42, 4:04 and 5:04 and you tell me that he'd have problems with Ben freaking Wallace...






Besides.. I don't understand. Ben Wallace was 23 on Washington when they played the Bulls in the playoffs. Michael and Scottie were old and aging respectively. Why wasn't Wallace out there chopping them down? I don't get it?


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Hoodey said:


> This is, and has always been crap. Michael Jordan averaged 11.4 APG in a Finals against Magic. I would also say mere dominance makes your teammates better. Were Rick Fox, Robert Horry and Derek Fisher not better for the presence of Shaq dunking on 3 guys? What happens when you have a great EFFICIENT scorer who can also pass, albeit passing is not the best thing they do?


You can bring up Jordan's 11.4 assists per game all you want, but a guy drawing attention and then passing when he's driving because people are too worried about him doesn't suddenly make him Steve Nash. When Michael wasn't out there on the floor, his teammates played BETTER WITHOUT HIM. His teammates individual stats with him out prove this. Jordan couldn't run an offense, he couldn't determine when to and not to pass the ball to the right man. 

Wanna know what Jordan's usage rate was while he was a PG? 38.3. That's right. 38.3. Now keep in mind that this is a guy that had to have a specific type of defense be designed for him where people would automatically double team him, even triple team him sometimes just when he touched the ball. He was a great passer. There is no denying that. But you're telling me that a guy who gets that much attention could get 11 assists per game when he's NOT getting that much attention like Lebron does? If you think that, then you really are delusional. Lebron doing what he did helped the Cavaliers win 66 games in a season. Jordan had 7 straight triple doubles at one point, and yet the Bulls lost a good amount of those games in that streak. And there's a reason for that. Jordan can't run an offense or make teammates better like the way Lebron can. It's not even a contest.



Hoodey said:


> The question that begs to be asked is this.. from 91 on, when Scottie Pippen is now mature and also a very good passer for his position, and when you have a bunch of players who can hit an open shot, the triangle offense and you're winning titles and NOT losing to teams like Dallas... do you need to ask MJ to average 11 APG like he did in the 91 Finals or like he did in 70 starts from 87-89 at the one position? No... his dominant scoring was more than enough.


LOL, yea, that was definitely why Jordan went back to SG. It had NOTHING to do with the fact that Phil Jackson thought Jordan lacked the skills to play point guard and didn't like playing with guards who played the classic point guard role. That was just a minor inconvenience. 



Hoodey said:


> Jordan made his teammates better.. what did you think that the John Paxson barrage of jumpers at the end of the 91 Finals was? How do you think Paxson and Kerr got to take their game winning shots (defense focused on Jordan, in Kerr's case.. a pass from.. Jordan)? In the playoffs, when defenses focused too much on Jordan, you'd see countless passes FROM Jordan, to a wide open Horace Grant for dunks and easy layups. See, game 2, 1991 NBA Finals.


Of course Paxson was open. Jordan was the best player in the league and one of the best scorers we had ever seen, so of course he was going to attract attention! Jordan passes the ball to them and gives them the opportunty, but it takes more than just giving someone their opportunities every now and then, they have to THRIVE off of playing alongside them. Paxson and Kerr did not thrive off of playing with Jordan. Jordan made them worse.

And while we're at it, do you know anything at all about the way Jordan played? He hated playing alongside people like Paxon, and as long as Jordan was out there, there was no way that was going to work. The only reason Paxon ever saw any playing time was because Scottie Pippen ended up blossoming into a great passer and play maker to run the offense, something Jordan could never do. You call that a guy who can make others better?



Hoodey said:


> You really are overrating the 2011 Mavericks and 2007 Spurs. Jordan, in Lebron's place, easily beats Dallas. Against San Antonio, I never expected Lebron to win.. just not to shoot 35%. Yes.. take Lebron out of the 2011 Finals.. add a guy going for 31.2 PPG on 55.8% FG and that's a Heat win.


Actually I'm not. Dallas had the tools to stop a player like Lebron. And Lebron had really bad timing with his jumper not falling. With the Celtics, that was a different story. 

And you honestly think Jordan was going to score at that rate going inside against the Mavericks? Do you have any idea how good the Mavericks were at guarding the paint and stopping people from drive it in with ease? Jordan would have a better ppg average than Lebron, but he would in no way average the numbers you just gave me, especially if his jumper were to suddenly stop falling. He would put up very disappointing numbers. 

As for the Spurs, there's no overrating here. They were an excellent defensive team. You're right, the 86 Celtics are miles above the 07 Spurs, but news flash. The first round of the playoffs and the NBA Finals are two completely different stages. And when you consider the fact that Lebron's supporting cast was miles below what Jordan's supporting cast is, Lebron playing disappointingly scoring wise shouldn't be a surprise, not against a team like the Spurs. 



Hoodey said:


> As for Lebron not being a scorer like MJ, that's exactly my point. What wins late in playoff games is SCORING. Getting a bucket on every possession for your team, or making it seem that way. Had Lebron done that, Miami beats Dallas.


How is that your point? What are you trying to prove here? That Jordan is better? I was never denying that. I was saying that Lebron is a better passer and is better at getting others involved and making them better than Jordan is. And that is true. And even if it wasn't, pointing out that Jordan is a better scorer in the playoffs and finals doesn't prove that. 

And actually no, what wins late playoffs games is DEFENSE. It's always defense first, scoring last. Who ever taught you that it's scoring first lied to you.



Hoodey said:


> For you not to get where I'm going with this is remarkable. Whoever scores the most points wins the game... so.. if MJ and Lebron are unbelievable scorers, fine.. give Lebron credit for more assists. But when Lebron is passing simply because he CANNOT score on double and triple teams like MJ did, he's just choosing to do something easier because he can't do the harder thing (dunk on triple teams with a series of scoring moves to meet any defense).


But here's the thing, the idea that Lebron does that because he can't score as easily is flat out wrong. How? In his second MVP season, he averaged 29 points per game while averaging 8.6 assists per game. He did all of this without needing to switch to the PG position like Jordan did. At one point he scored 50+ points and had 11 assists. You call that a guy who passes the ball because he can't score at will? Bullshit. It doesn't matter if Lebron has one player on him, he'll still choose to pass the ball first. He doesn't do it because it's easier, he does it because he loves to get others involved and could care less about scoring. He's stated this numerous times.



Hoodey said:


> You call it "making your teammates better." I call it.. at the moment at which the opposing defense is saying, "dominate us if you can Lebron," Lebron remembering his 17.8 PPG in the 2011 Finals and saying, "maybe passing to Mike Miller is a better idea."


Really? So something that happened in 2011 is the reason why he did it 7 years before that from 2003-2010? That makes...sense I guess?



Hoodey said:


> The Heat were a flawed team. And the Spurs were a team without a top 25 player all time on their team in his actual prime. Duncan is ancient and Tony Parker probably isn't even a top 50 player all time. In the meantime, Lebron joined forces with two players whose PER the previous season was in the mid 20s.. figure it out. Oh, we should feel sorry for him because he couldn't play with Bosh AND Wade AND still have money left over for a great defensive center??


And yet despite Duncan being out of his prime, he still had a fantastic season and was a all NBA first team member. So that point is completely invalid. And wow, you bring up the PER they had in the PREVIOUS season? What about the CURRENT season? Bringing up what they did in the previous season is completely irrelevant to what went on this season, especially when one of them changes positions.



Hoodey said:


> The problem with players who can't score like Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem in his prime of primes, Kareem, etc. because they are pass first players is this...
> 
> What if you're on a team without great scorers?


But here's the thing, he CAN score like them. We saw that in Cleveland. He simply chooses not to while he's in Miami because he doesn't need to, nor does he want to for lack of reason to give a shit.



Hoodey said:


> Michael Jordan can win with Worthy and Kareem or with Wade and Bosh.. guys who can score who you just have to pass the ball to.
> 
> The difference is... Jordan could have joined scorers notches below Wade and Bosh and made a serious run. Magic or Lebron? They need scorers to pass to.


The Cavaliers going to the finals in 2007 wasn't a "serious" run? Or all those late and deep playoff runs they made as the best team in the regular season? Where they were also heavy favorites?



Hoodey said:


> Also.. when you can score on MJ's FG%, scoring a lot is always a good thing. Same with Shaq.. same with Kareem..


You mean like this past season when Lebron shot a higher percentage than Jordan ever did at any point in his career?



Hoodey said:


> Jordan was an efficient scorer.. if he was scoring efficiently, why shouldn't he hold the ball a lot and score a lot?
> 
> Oh... that's right, he's supposed to let his teammates do so too, right? The problem in 1990 was that Scottie Pippen was too young and he and Horace were not ready. MJ played well enough to win.. Scottie and Horace did not.
> 
> ...


How did any of that have anything to do with my point about Lebron not holding the ball as much as Jordan?



Hoodey said:


> Wait, Lebron didn't have a superstar on his team in 2011 when he lost to the Mavericks? After Lebron and Dirk, Dwyane Wade wasn't the best player in the series?


I wasn't referring to the Heat, I was referring to Lebron's Cavaliers team. What PF on Lebron's team can shoot the three point shot and actually plays in the game?



Hoodey said:


> What's your theory with Pippen? That he was so legendary that MJ almost had to be able to score because of all of the triple teams Scottie drew? Scottie was a pretty good scorer one on one with the ball and without any space created for him on a possession by Jordan. He was hardly Shaq or even Dwyane Wade.


You're right, he was better than Dwayne Wade. 



Hoodey said:


> Dude, don't give me point forward crap when you're trying to be the best player of all time. When you're trying to be the GOAT, you do whatever your team needs. If your team needs you to come down and get a bucket on almost every possession in the 4th, that's what you do. You don't hide behind a position created by Paul Pressey and Chris Mullin (in part).


So a team needs you to drive in a clamped down lane where you have no room what so ever to drive in, and shoot random mid range jumpers when your jumper isn't falling? That's what he needs to do? Do you coach players and tell them to do this?

"You're missing shots? **** it keep shooting it's only the championship game, **** that other guy who's 12-12 and has so many free throws made I lost count and stopped giving a shit". 

It's called playing smart, shooting shots you probably won't make isn't what your team needs.



Hoodey said:


> Why give a guy credit for excelling at a secondary skill when the other guy excels at the primary skill. Scoring is more important than assists. The team with the most points wins, whether the other team has less assists or 25 more assists..


So Kobe Bryant is better than Magic Johnson because his main asset was his ability to get assists?



Hoodey said:


> In the playoffs this year, Lebron averaged a whopping 0.8 more APG than Jordan at the same age. That's what's so hilarious.


But here's the thing, it's still more. 

There, I just used troll logic and I'm still correct.



Hoodey said:


> Being better at a secondary skill is meaningless when the other guy is better at the primary skill.


So let me see if I have this right. Lebron is a great passer, but because Jordan is a better scorer, that automatically means Jordan is a better passer?



Hoodey said:


> It's like saying, "well, Michael Irvin is better than Jerry Rice. He doesn't catch the ball better, but he's a better blocker." Blocking, like assists, are important. As important as catching the football or scoring in basketball? No.


How is it like that at all? I never claimed Lebron was a better player than Jordan! How are you missing this? You're completely changing the point and are trying to argue something else that has absolutely nothing to do with this. It's like debating with Hobojoe, only this time there's actual logic and meaning to it.

Lebron is a better passer. Now try to argue against that, only this time, don't use scoring performances that Jordan had, or bad scoring performances Lebron had. Because you won't prove anything.


----------



## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

XxIrvingxX said:


> You can bring up Jordan's 11.4 assists per game all you want, but a guy drawing attention and then passing when he's driving because people are too worried about him doesn't suddenly make him Steve Nash. When Michael wasn't out there on the floor, his teammates played BETTER WITHOUT HIM. His teammates individual stats with him out prove this. Jordan couldn't run an offense, he couldn't determine when to and not to pass the ball to the right man.


So, passing to open teammates "doesn't count" if you're just so good as an individual scorer that your teammates are wide open as a result? For you to make your teammates better, you have to be a "pretty good" scorer so that there is a higher degree of difficulty on the passes like Magic? 

What's funny here is.. once again... Lebron this year in the playoffs averaged a whopping 0.8 more APG than Jordan at the same age. That's what your entire argument rests on. 0.8 APG...

As far as Michael's teammates being better without him on the floor.. this always happens! Take Shaq, Lebron, Michael, Larry Bird off the floor and there are more points, assists and rebounds to go around because Lebron or MJ or Shaq aren't there to rack them up. This would explain Bosh and Wade's numbers pre 2010 and post. 

Bosh averaged 23.9 PPG and 10.8 RPG in 2010. Then, in 2011, he averaged 18.5 and 8.3. Guess Lebron made him worse right? OR.. maybe, there were just fewer shots, rebounds, etc. to go around once he played with Wade and Lebron. Only someone like yourself... a fan clinging to the religion that was 1987 Boston/LA media "anti Jordan" press would try this as an actual argument. 



> Wanna know what Jordan's usage rate was while he was a PG? 38.3. That's right. 38.3. Now keep in mind that this is a guy that had to have a specific type of defense be designed for him where people would automatically double team him, even triple team him sometimes just when he touched the ball. He was a great passer. There is no denying that. But you're telling me that a guy who gets that much attention could get 11 assists per game when he's NOT getting that much attention like Lebron does? If you think that, then you really are delusional. Lebron doing what he did helped the Cavaliers win 66 games in a season. Jordan had 7 straight triple doubles at one point, and yet the Bulls lost a good amount of those games in that streak. And there's a reason for that. Jordan can't run an offense or make teammates better like the way Lebron can. It's not even a contest.


You're blaming a guy for being such a great scorer that he demands individual attention that makes passing easier.

*That's WHY Jordan was better than other great players! Because his individual scoring made things like passing EASIER than they are for others... to the point that he could average fewer than 1 APG less than Lebron, and yet still rack up massive amounts of points. *

Playoff APG at age 28:

Lebron James 6.6 APG
Michael Jordan 5.8 APG

Now, look at that and scoring... assume all assists lead to two points, and then add that to PPG to get total points accounted for...

Michael Jordan 34.5 PPG + 11.6 points from assists = 46.1 total points accounted for

Lebron James 25.9 PPG + 13.2 points from assists = 39.1 total points accounted for

Yes, MJ was dominant enough to be a top scorer all-time and still get almost as many points for teammates as Lebron, giving the Bulls 46.1 total points a night in the playoffs. His dominance and drawing triple teams was a GOOD thing. I can't say the things here that I think about someone who doesn't get that. 

I showed you why the Bulls lost with Michael Jordan.. Scottie and Horace turning in gems when they just weren't ready. He ran an offense fine. When they both turned 25.. the Bulls took off and never looked back. 



> LOL, yea, that was definitely why Jordan went back to SG. It had NOTHING to do with the fact that Phil Jackson thought Jordan lacked the skills to play point guard and didn't like playing with guards who played the classic point guard role. That was just a minor inconvenience.


But I don't get it. The 11.4 APG came AFTER Phil became head coach. Why didn't Phil force Michael away from this?

In the 91 Finals, Michael was both dominant scorer 31.2 PPG on a mind boggling 55.8% FG... and was going tit for tat with Magic at 11.4 APG.. AND WINNING!! 

How does this not disprove everything you just said? And you can flush your second hand account of Phil's thoughts.. and even just Phil's thoughts. Phil would favorably compare Kobe to MJ if he thought it would give LA a playoff edge. I'm concerned with what happened on the court.. not with what Phil, Rick Barry, your Dad, Tom Tolbert or anyone else has to say about it as a self-defining statement. 



> Of course Paxson was open. Jordan was the best player in the league and one of the best scorers we had ever seen, so of course he was going to attract attention! Jordan passes the ball to them and gives them the opportunty, but it takes more than just giving someone their opportunities every now and then, they have to THRIVE off of playing alongside them. Paxson and Kerr did not thrive off of playing with Jordan. Jordan made them worse.
> 
> And while we're at it, do you know anything at all about the way Jordan played? He hated playing alongside people like Paxon, and as long as Jordan was out there, there was no way that was going to work. The only reason Paxon ever saw any playing time was because Scottie Pippen ended up blossoming into a great passer and play maker to run the offense, something Jordan could never do. You call that a guy who can make others better?


Wow, you're probably the worst I've ever encountered. So, if a scorer is so dominant that their teammates are wide open, and thus they score easy baskets, it doesn't count.. because.. THAT'S TOO EASY! LOL wow... it has to be harder because MJ needed to NOT be able to draw a double team.. that way, if he had to thread a behind the back pass to a well defended Paxson, it would be a situation where Paxson would be "thriving." 

This is starting to be like arguing with a hard core republican in the "the earth is definitely ending this year" camp. 

You have no idea what you're talking about. Jordan loved Paxson going back to a European barnstorming tour they went on BEFORE MJ got into the NBA.

By the way... in all of this.. you talk as if Jordan LOST. You do know he won six championships right? Because to hear you tell it, he's still waiting on title one because his way just doesn't work...

HE along with players as good as Wade and Bosh were in 2011 never lost to Dirk and a bunch of guys. What's wrong? I thought with Lebron's noble way of making his teammates so much better, this was never supposed to happen? 



> Actually I'm not. Dallas had the tools to stop a player like Lebron. And Lebron had really bad timing with his jumper not falling. With the Celtics, that was a different story.


Umm, when you're trying to be better than Jordan, there is no such thing as an excuse like, "well his jumper just had bad timing." MJ never had bad timing. He lost when Pippen and Grant were too young. He lost because Orlando Woolridge and Charles Oakley never were good enough. He never lost because it just "didn't happen at a bad time."

As for Dallas... who were the third and fourth best players after Dirk and Lebron? 

Wade and Bosh. And you can argue anything you want, but Lebron said it... "not five, not six".... if you feel so good about things that six championships is something you look down on, how can you then argue that Dallas "should have beaten you"...? 



> And you honestly think Jordan was going to score at that rate going inside against the Mavericks? Do you have any idea how good the Mavericks were at guarding the paint and stopping people from drive it in with ease? Jordan would have a better ppg average than Lebron, but he would in no way average the numbers you just gave me, especially if his jumper were to suddenly stop falling. He would put up very disappointing numbers.


LMFAO... have you seen Alonzo Mourning and Patrick Ewing go up with the full intent of making body contact with MJ and he just dunks on them and sends them backwards? But Tyson Chandler was going to stop him? Tyson jumped high... but you needed more than that to stop MJ... you needed to account for Magic's description of MJ as a 6'6" leaper with the strength of a big man. 

I thought MJ was so good he attracted triple teams and that made it too easy.. now Chandler and Dirk are going to stop MJ from scoring in the paint?

What planet are you from?



> As for the Spurs, there's no overrating here. They were an excellent defensive team. You're right, the 86 Celtics are miles above the 07 Spurs, but news flash. The first round of the playoffs and the NBA Finals are two completely different stages. And when you consider the fact that Lebron's supporting cast was miles below what Jordan's supporting cast is, Lebron playing disappointingly scoring wise shouldn't be a surprise, not against a team like the Spurs.


Yes, and in the 2011 Finals, on that big stage, Lebron choked.

As for not playing Boston on the "big stage" in 1986.. there never will be a player who will take Orlando Woolridge and Charles Oakley and get a second seed in a conference as strong as the 1986 East..

After the 86 First Round, Larry Bird was asked about defending Michael and said, "that wasn't Michael Jordan. That was god disguised as Michael Jordan." 

In 86 v. Boston, MJ averaged 5.7 APG.. only 0.9 APG less than Lebron this past post-season. He also averaged 43.7 PPG on 50.5% FG. This is not just excelling.. this is other-worldly. Boston in 86 was and is considered one of the best defenses and teams ever... like top 5, #1 in many peoples books.

And.. you're comparing MJ's supporting cast during the Boston series to Lebron in the 2011 Finals? Lebron had Wade and Bosh... Jordan had Woolridge and Oakley?!?! WTF are you talking about?

This is proof that high school fan boys like you DON'T KNOW how good MJ was.. you've never seen it. What you've seen is a bunch of clips of 96 aging MJ and the corporate media has you thinking that that IS MJ and that MJ's career basically started with the hand-switching move in the 91 Finals...



> How is that your point? What are you trying to prove here? That Jordan is better? I was never denying that. I was saying that Lebron is a better passer and is better at getting others involved and making them better than Jordan is. And that is true. And even if it wasn't, pointing out that Jordan is a better scorer in the playoffs and finals doesn't prove that.
> 
> And actually no, what wins late playoffs games is DEFENSE. It's always defense first, scoring last. Who ever taught you that it's scoring first lied to you.


You're better when you win than when you lose right? I'd say you make your teammates better by winning as a scorer who averages only 0.8 APG less than the other guy than you do by LOSING as a facilitator...

*And, you haven't really provided much anecdotally that Lebron makes players better than MJ. What you've admitted is that MJ got wide open shots for his teammates, but MJ should be PENALIZED for his scoring.. because passing to wide open teammates when the whole defense runs at you because of your scoring is TOO EASY. You can only make your teammates better by being single teamed and then whipping a behind the back, no-look pass right into a double-teamed teammates hands.. *



> But here's the thing, the idea that Lebron does that because he can't score as easily is flat out wrong. How? In his second MVP season, he averaged 29 points per game while averaging 8.6 assists per game. He did all of this without needing to switch to the PG position like Jordan did. At one point he scored 50+ points and had 11 assists. You call that a guy who passes the ball because he can't score at will? Bullshit. It doesn't matter if Lebron has one player on him, he'll still choose to pass the ball first. He doesn't do it because it's easier, he does it because he loves to get others involved and could care less about scoring. He's stated this numerous times.


I have no doubt that Lebron can do this all in meaningless situations on Cleveland. If he can just... "score like MJ but chooses not to," what happened in Dallas? They were begging him to score to beat them. Why didn't he? 

Michael Jordan didn't... "score like Michael Jordan EXCEPT for when he just decided not to in the Finals once..." He just... "scored like Michael Jordan." 

When passing to your teammates isn't working and isn't winning, there is no honor in continuing to do it instead of dominating to win.

Wilt, like Lebron, would do this... Los Angeles would be in a position where all they needed was for Wilt to take over to beat Boston in the 69 Finals... but he'd suddenly become Mr. passer...

Passing isn't always right, and scoring isn't always right.. if hammering at the basket was ALWAYS what you should do, Mr. Iverson and Mr. McGrady might have had better outcomes. MJ needed to have games like game 3 of the 92 Finals or game 2 of the 91 Finals early on ALSO...



> Really? So something that happened in 2011 is the reason why he did it 7 years before that from 2003-2010? That makes...sense I guess?


But 2011 DID happen! MJ never had a series like the 2011 Finals where his team lost and he scored like Scottie Pippen. You don't just get to throw the years you don't like out lol. 

It's like taking the ACT.. taking the ACT and getting a 14, then taking it again and getting a 36 will never be looked upon by colleges the same way as the guy who just got the 36 the first time... 

2011 was a MAJOR BLACK EYE on the career of Lebron when you talk about comparing him to players like MJ. 



> And yet despite Duncan being out of his prime, he still had a fantastic season and was a all NBA first team member. So that point is completely invalid. And wow, you bring up the PER they had in the PREVIOUS season? What about the CURRENT season? Bringing up what they did in the previous season is completely irrelevant to what went on this season, especially when one of them changes positions.


The 2003 Spurs would have pistol-whipped the Heat...



> But here's the thing, he CAN score like them. We saw that in Cleveland. He simply chooses not to while he's in Miami because he doesn't need to, nor does he want to for lack of reason to give a shit.


He didn't need to in 2011? What happened then? 

This has gotten way too long. From now on, when you post.. I'll quote 3 of your replying passages max..


----------



## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Hoodey said:


> So, passing to open teammates "doesn't count" if you're just so good as an individual scorer that your teammates are wide open as a result? For you to make your teammates better, you have to be a "pretty good" scorer so that there is a higher degree of difficulty on the passes like Magic?
> 
> What's funny here is.. once again... Lebron this year in the playoffs averaged a whopping 0.8 more APG than Jordan at the same age. That's what your entire argument rests on. 0.8 APG...


My entire argument doesn't rest on that because unlike you I'm not relying on stats to prove my point, something that you love to do apparently.



Hoodey said:


> As far as Michael's teammates being better without him on the floor.. this always happens! Take Shaq, Lebron, Michael, Larry Bird off the floor and there are more points, assists and rebounds to go around because Lebron or MJ or Shaq aren't there to rack them up. This would explain Bosh and Wade's numbers pre 2010 and post.


Wade and Bosh's FG% didn't decrease when Lebron wasn't on the floor. 

When Jordan left, Scottie Pippen's FG% noticably increased, and noticably decreased when Jordan came back. You call that making your teammate better? Look at Mo Williams. The guy comes into Cleveland, and in his first year he puts up career numbers scoring wise. His 3% improved tremendously, and even became an all star. His second year, despite not having nearly as impressive numbers due to the Cavs picking up more key players, he was still very productive. So what happens when Lebron leaves? Mo Williams shoots below 40% for the first time in his career since he was a rookie. A ROOKIE. Did Michael Jordan ever have that effect? Of course not, because he didn't make players better. 



Hoodey said:


> Bosh averaged 23.9 PPG and 10.8 RPG in 2010. Then, in 2011, he averaged 18.5 and 8.3. Guess Lebron made him worse right? OR.. maybe, there were just fewer shots, rebounds, etc. to go around once he played with Wade and Lebron.


Even that wasn't the case. What happened was in Toronto Bosh had a lot more spacing so he could be effective both inside and out. In Miami that wasn't the case. With two superstars in Wade and Lebron who love attacking the basket, Bosh had to resort to jump shots for a good amount of time. So it wasn't just his scoring that suffered, his FG% suffered as well.



Hoodey said:


> You're blaming a guy for being such a great scorer that he demands individual attention that makes passing easier.
> 
> *That's WHY Jordan was better than other great players! Because his individual scoring made things like passing EASIER than they are for others... to the point that he could average fewer than 1 APG less than Lebron, and yet still rack up massive amounts of points. *
> 
> ...


Do you not understand the concept of the term "usage"? If Lebron held the ball anywhere close to the amount of times that Jordan did, you would actually have a point here. Michael Jordan's average usage per game in the playoffs was 35.6%, in comparison do Lebron's 31%. And since we're going to go by age, Jordan's usage % at age 28 in that series was 36.6%. Lebron's? 29.2.

And I guess we're gonna leave out the amount of turnovers Jordan committed in comparison to Lebron? Just so you understand what I'm talking about, Jordan averaged 3.7 turnovers in the playoffs that year, Lebron averaged 3.0. So, Jordan committed more turnovers and had less assists, where as Lebron committed less turnovers and had more assists while having the ball a LOT less than Jordan did. 

Seriously? You're trying to argue that Jordan's greater at making others around him better despite those numbers?



Hoodey said:


> Yes, MJ was dominant enough to be a top scorer all-time and still get almost as many points for teammates as Lebron, giving the Bulls 46.1 total points a night in the playoffs. His dominance and drawing triple teams was a GOOD thing. I can't say the things here that I think about someone who doesn't get that.


I never claimed it was a bad thing. I don't put words in my mouth. I said that doesn't mean he makes his teammates better. There's a HUGE difference. 



Hoodey said:


> But I don't get it. The 11.4 APG came AFTER Phil became head coach. Why didn't Phil force Michael away from this?


Because getting a lot of assists and running the offense are two completely different things. Wilt Chamberlin would know. 



Hoodey said:


> How does this not disprove everything you just said? And you can flush your second hand account of Phil's thoughts.. and even just Phil's thoughts. Phil would favorably compare Kobe to MJ if he thought it would give LA a playoff edge. I'm concerned with what happened on the court.. not with what Phil, Rick Barry, your Dad, Tom Tolbert or anyone else has to say about it as a self-defining statement.


Because none of it proves that Jordan was better than Lebron at making his teammates better. All it proves is that Jordan is capable of passing out of the double team to wide open teammates who just happen to be elite three point shooters.



Hoodey said:


> Wow, you're probably the worst I've ever encountered. So, if a scorer is so dominant that their teammates are wide open, and thus they score easy baskets, it doesn't count.. because.. THAT'S TOO EASY! LOL wow... it has to be harder because MJ needed to NOT be able to draw a double team.. that way, if he had to thread a behind the back pass to a well defended Paxson, it would be a situation where Paxson would be "thriving."


How you even reading what you're saying? Passing out of the double team that you draw just by standing there to a wide open person is harder than needing to create those opportunities by yourself through running plays because every one of your teammates are being covered? Huh??



Hoodey said:


> You have no idea what you're talking about. Jordan loved Paxson going back to a European barnstorming tour they went on BEFORE MJ got into the NBA.


You can say Jordan and Paxson adopted a kid together at one point, the fact of the matter is, Jordan did not like playing alongside Paxson. It wasn't anything against Paxson himself. It's been noted time and time again that Jordan hates playing alongside point guards who play the classic point guard role.



Hoodey said:


> HE along with players as good as Wade and Bosh were in 2011 never lost to Dirk and a bunch of guys. What's wrong? I thought with Lebron's noble way of making his teammates so much better, this was never supposed to happen?


One player can't determine whether a team wins or not. 

Troll logic mode commence: He did make his teammates better. He made them so much better that Wade had an amazing series to the point where he played better than Lebron, and Bosh almost played better than him too. 

Serious logic: The Mavericks weren't Dirk and a "bunch of guys". It was a team compiled with one definite all star and a lot of great players who fit the system Dallas ran perfectly. 



Hoodey said:


> Umm, when you're trying to be better than Jordan, there is no such thing as an excuse like, "well his jumper just had bad timing." MJ never had bad timing. He lost when Pippen and Grant were too young. He lost because Orlando Woolridge and Charles Oakley never were good enough. He never lost because it just "didn't happen at a bad time."


Jordan isn't a pass first guard now is he? And I doubt Lebron is trying to be "better than Jordan". And being better than Jordan at getting others involved doesn't happen by scoring. 



Hoodey said:


> As for Dallas... who were the third and fourth best players after Dirk and Lebron?
> 
> Wade and Bosh. And you can argue anything you want, but Lebron said it... "not five, not six".... if you feel so good about things that six championships is something you look down on, how can you then argue that Dallas "should have beaten you"...?


Again, teams win championships. Not players. I can easily twist your logic by looking to the 2004 NBA finals and asking you who were the two best players in that series? Kobe and Shaq? Oh okay. Who won? Detroit? That's what I thought. 



Hoodey said:


> LMFAO... have you seen Alonzo Mourning and Patrick Ewing go up with the full intent of making body contact with MJ and he just dunks on them and sends them backwards? But Tyson Chandler was going to stop him? Tyson jumped high... but you needed more than that to stop MJ... you needed to account for Magic's description of MJ as a 6'6" leaper with the strength of a big man.


Yes, I do, considering how the rules of todays game are a lot different, team defense has evolved a lot since Jordan's days. Just getting to that paint alone is difficult when going up against Dallas. 



Hoodey said:


> I thought MJ was so good he attracted triple teams and that made it too easy.. now Chandler and Dirk are going to stop MJ from scoring in the paint?


We're talking about two different eras defensively here. In this day and age, Jordan wouldn't attract double and triple teams automatically, team defenses are too evolved for something like that to happen. 



Hoodey said:


> Yes, and in the 2011 Finals, on that big stage, Lebron choked.


If by choked you mean went up against a team that knew what they were doing in terms of stopping him, then yes, he choked. 



Hoodey said:


> As for not playing Boston on the "big stage" in 1986.. there never will be a player who will take Orlando Woolridge and Charles Oakley and get a second seed in a conference as strong as the 1986 East..


Just like there will never be a player who will take a team with Drew Gooden as the second best player to the NBA finals. 



Hoodey said:


> And.. you're comparing MJ's supporting cast during the Boston series to Lebron in the 2011 Finals? Lebron had Wade and Bosh... Jordan had Woolridge and Oakley?!?! WTF are you talking about?


What posts are you reading here? I'm comparing that team to his Cleveland team. Good god no wonder you can't even get what we're arguing about right. 



Hoodey said:


> This is proof that high school fan boys like you DON'T KNOW how good MJ was.. you've never seen it. What you've seen is a bunch of clips of 96 aging MJ and the corporate media has you thinking that that IS MJ and that MJ's career basically started with the hand-switching move in the 91 Finals...


If this statement was actually true I would agree with you.



Hoodey said:


> You're better when you win than when you lose right? I'd say you make your teammates better by winning as a scorer who averages only 0.8 APG less than the other guy than you do by LOSING as a facilitator...


If they had the ball the same amount of time in their games, you would be correct. But as is the case, it wasn't, so as is the case, you're horribly wrong. 



Hoodey said:


> *And, you haven't really provided much anecdotally that Lebron makes players better than MJ.*


Actually yes I have. I have actually proven more than that. I've proven that Jordan doesn't make his teammates better. And so far in regards to those points, you've either ignored them entirely or changed the subject.



Hoodey said:


> I have no doubt that Lebron can do this all in meaningless situations on Cleveland. If he can just... "score like MJ but chooses not to," what happened in Dallas? They were begging him to score to beat them. Why didn't he?


Because as I stated before, Dallas knew how to stop Lebron. No team that Jordan faced knew how to stop Jordan. 

I'm done responding to points like these that have nothing to do with what we're talking about. 



Hoodey said:


> When passing to your teammates isn't working and isn't winning, there is no honor in continuing to do it instead of dominating to win.


That's Lebron's most dominating trait. So your logic doesn't make any sense here.



Hoodey said:


> 2011 was a MAJOR BLACK EYE on the career of Lebron when you talk about comparing him to players like MJ.


In terms of scoring and overall play? Of course. But we aren't talking about that, are we? No, we aren't. 



Hoodey said:


> The 2003 Spurs would have pistol-whipped the Heat...


Oh I'm sure they would've, assuming of course two of their role players manages to shoot the lights out like Danny Green and Gary Neal did, and assuming of course they can find a player with the length and defense abilities to limit Lebron for the first three games. Oh wait they don't have that? 



Hoodey said:


> This has gotten way too long. From now on, when you post.. I'll quote 3 of your replying passages max..


So then how about you reply to the points that actually matter in terms of what we're talking about? The only reason this got too long was because you're failing to understand that pointing out how well Jordan does scoring wise in a series won't prove anything.

Here are my main points. If Jordan had the same amount of usage Lebron did, Jordan's assist stats wouldn't be anywhere near what Lebron's are. Lebron doesn't attract the double team, he gets his assists and gets others involved by working at it, by running the offense, and by having a plan before the play is even run on who to pass it to, things Jordan could never do. Attracting the double team and being able to pass it out to someone is an effective way to get someone involved, but it in no way means you're making someone else better, especially when their FG% drops while playing alongside you. I couldn't even tell you how many times Jordan would randomly throw the ball out to teammates at the last second before the shot clock ran out because he didn't have a shot. There's a reason why his teammates shot worse percentages when they were playing with Jordan.

And saying that because Jordan passes out of the double team well to an open teammate, he's suddenly better at making others better than Lebron, is utter crap. That's like saying the 7'4 guy who can't do anything right on the court and who's standing under the rim and is playing against people a foot and a half shorter than him is better than the guys who can dribble the ball, control the pace of the offense, can make most shots contested and are actually skilled in the game of basketball because he's scoring on them with will since no one can guard him.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

XxIrvingxX said:


> My entire argument doesn't rest on that because unlike you I'm not relying on stats to prove my point, something that you love to do apparently.


So, don't look at stats, instead... take your word for it. Assists measure the direct manifestation of passes into points. Your BS opinion on passing that is more indirect than that is something I could care less about. You, like all Magic fans, just like to repeat your mantra about your guy "making everyone else better" .. because he just can't SCORE like Jordan. 



> Wade and Bosh's FG% didn't decrease when Lebron wasn't on the floor.
> 
> When Jordan left, Scottie Pippen's FG% noticably increased, and noticably decreased when Jordan came back. You call that making your teammate better? Look at Mo Williams. The guy comes into Cleveland, and in his first year he puts up career numbers scoring wise. His 3% improved tremendously, and even became an all star. His second year, despite not having nearly as impressive numbers due to the Cavs picking up more key players, he was still very productive. So what happens when Lebron leaves? Mo Williams shoots below 40% for the first time in his career since he was a rookie. A ROOKIE. Did Michael Jordan ever have that effect? Of course not, because he didn't make players better.


What about 1991. Pippen shot 52%. Did Jordan take his Lebron pills that year? Think it had anything to do with age? Or with 1993 being the year in which MJ and Pippen had just played around 100 games in consecutive seasons AND the Olympics in 92? Your points are awful. 



> Even that wasn't the case. What happened was in Toronto Bosh had a lot more spacing so he could be effective both inside and out. In Miami that wasn't the case. With two superstars in Wade and Lebron who love attacking the basket, Bosh had to resort to jump shots for a good amount of time. So it wasn't just his scoring that suffered, his FG% suffered as well.


But you cited MJ's teammates' stats being better without him. I just showed you Bosh's stats being better before James played with him. Regardless of how you want to explain it.. "it" is exactly what you accused MJ of... no? 



> Do you not understand the concept of the term "usage"? If Lebron held the ball anywhere close to the amount of times that Jordan did, you would actually have a point here. Michael Jordan's average usage per game in the playoffs was 35.6%, in comparison do Lebron's 31%. And since we're going to go by age, Jordan's usage % at age 28 in that series was 36.6%. Lebron's? 29.2.


But, when a guy can score as efficiently as MJ.. and, by your own admission, get such easy passes to his teammates BECAUSE OF his dominant scoring, you want holding the ball, no? Why would you ever want the ball to leave the hands of a guy who can score at 31.2 PPG on 55.8% FG and ALSO get 11.4 APG? Now, when a guy averages 17.8 PPG, I can see why you'd want him to get rid of the ball...



> And I guess we're gonna leave out the amount of turnovers Jordan committed in comparison to Lebron? Just so you understand what I'm talking about, Jordan averaged 3.7 turnovers in the playoffs that year, Lebron averaged 3.0. So, Jordan committed more turnovers and had less assists, where as Lebron committed less turnovers and had more assists while having the ball a LOT less than Jordan did.
> 
> Seriously? You're trying to argue that Jordan's greater at making others around him better despite those numbers?


0.8 more APG and 0.7 less TO? That's the massive difference we're talking about here? Really? When you account for MJ's difference in scoring... that's what we're talking about? Say that 0.7 turnovers is scored at a rate of 50% for 2 points (generous on the FG%, too lazy to get into TS% and the impact on points). You're talking about 0.7 PPG. A whole basket every 3 games.. Man, you really got me. 



> I never claimed it was a bad thing. I don't put words in my mouth. I said that doesn't mean he makes his teammates better. There's a HUGE difference.


You attributed MJ's passing to defenses designed to double team him.. claiming that Lebron does not get that much attention. That's every players goal! To DRAW that much attention because if the defense DOES NOT pay you that much attention, it's going to be easy money every time.. and then you can rack up 11.4 APG in a Finals.. because your scoring is such a threat that the defense has no choice but to give John Paxson and Horace Grant wide open shots. And you can watch that whole series because that's exactly what it was.. MJ getting Grant and Paxson WIDE open shots. 



> Because getting a lot of assists and running the offense are two completely different things. Wilt Chamberlin would know.


Don't change the goalposts... you said, "making your teammates better." Assists measure direct impact of passing on points. So now, all you need to do is "run the team's offense" and you're fine? MJ was the most dominant scoring threat ever in big money playoff situations and then off of that came wide open shots for teammates.. like Shaq, like Kareem. THE three players who were so close to automatic offensively in their primes that you had one choice... send more defenders at them and give their teammates wide open shots.. whether they were super inventive in creating those shots or not.

MJ didn't need to walk into single coverage and then whip a behind the back no look bullet pass between two guys to a covered teammate like Magic.. MJ's scoring was too big of a threat and teams had a choice.. either let him get easy money or leave his teammates wide open. For another example of what I'm talking about... see "Shaq from 00-02" Please tell me you're not the guy who doesn't get it who just thinks that "Rick Fox and John Paxson were really, really good." 



> Because none of it proves that Jordan was better than Lebron at making his teammates better. All it proves is that Jordan is capable of passing out of the double team to wide open teammates who just happen to be elite three point shooters.


So, again, drawing a double team is a bad thing in your world? Because you continue to imply this. You continue to imply that it's only "really" making your teammates better if your OWN offense is worse.. so that you DONT draw a double team, so that your passes must be harder.

Is John Paxson "better" WIDE OPEN or with a hand in his face? 



Like I said.. keep it to a few quotes.. less is more. I'm not getting into 65 quotes with you when you're saying the same 3 or 4 things in all of them...


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Hoodey said:


> So, don't look at stats, instead... take your word for it. Assists measure the direct manifestation of passes into points. Your BS opinion on passing that is more indirect than that is something I could care less about. You, like all Magic fans, just like to repeat your mantra about your guy "making everyone else better" .. because he just can't SCORE like Jordan.


So basically you're just going to base your entire argument off of assumptions you have of why I think this? That isn't going to get you very far.

And no don't take my word for it, just watch the games and learn a thing or two about the game. It helps, trust me.



Hoodey said:


> What about 1991. Pippen shot 52%. Did Jordan take his Lebron pills that year? Think it had anything to do with age? Or with 1993 being the year in which MJ and Pippen had just played around 100 games in consecutive seasons AND the Olympics in 92? Your points are awful.


One series=an entire year? Is this Mayo I'm talking to? 

And no my points are actually correct, Pippen's FG% went UP when Jordan left. You can't deny that. This is all while shooting the ball MORE, and without a guy who you claim can make others better and can get them open shots easily being gone, and there for resulting in Pippen, for the most part, needing to create his own shots for himself.

Call my points what ever you want, but so far they have been more truthful than yours have. 



Hoodey said:


> But you cited MJ's teammates' stats being better without him. I just showed you Bosh's stats being better before James played with him. Regardless of how you want to explain it.. "it" is exactly what you accused MJ of... no?


And this is once again a case scenario of you relying entirely on stats and not seeing the big picture. As I pointed out before, yes, Jordan's teammates FG% increased when he was gone. This makes sense for me to say because you're claiming that he's making them better, so I'm bringing up a point that says otherwise. These aren't guys who's biggest strength is scoring in the paint, like Bosh's is (and anyone who's biggest strength is scoring inside is going to have their stats decrease when they're playing with someone who scores in the paint. For someone who claims to know so much, you should know that). Bosh can shoot the jumper from mid range, but if you're just doing that, your stats and FG% will definitely go down. There's no denying that. 

You using Lebron in this situation doesn't make any sense, because he actually has other teammates in Miami who DO benefit from playing alongside him, where as Jordan didn't. 



Hoodey said:


> But, when a guy can score as efficiently as MJ.. and, by your own admission, get such easy passes to his teammates BECAUSE OF his dominant scoring, you want holding the ball, no? Why would you ever want the ball to leave the hands of a guy who can score at 31.2 PPG on 55.8% FG and ALSO get 11.4 APG? Now, when a guy averages 17.8 PPG, I can see why you'd want him to get rid of the ball...


Of course I want him holding the ball. In fact I'll bring that up a notch and say I want him to be the only guy holding the ball when we're down in the fourth quarter and need a big run.

Averaging 17.8 ppg in a series doesn't take away the fact that before that series, Lebron's biggest strength still was, and always will be, his ability to get others involved, something you somehow keep missing. Keep bringing up that Dallas series, it's just helping me prove my point. 



Hoodey said:


> 0.8 more APG and 0.7 less TO? That's the massive difference we're talking about here? Really?


Considering the difference in usage rate, yes. That's a HUGE difference. 



Hoodey said:


> When you account for MJ's difference in scoring... that's what we're talking about? Say that 0.7 turnovers is scored at a rate of 50% for 2 points (generous on the FG%, too lazy to get into TS% and the impact on points). You're talking about 0.7 PPG. A whole basket every 3 games.. Man, you really got me.


See point above.



Hoodey said:


> You attributed MJ's passing to defenses designed to double team him.. claiming that Lebron does not get that much attention. That's every players goal! To DRAW that much attention because if the defense DOES NOT pay you that much attention, it's going to be easy money every time.. and then you can rack up 11.4 APG in a Finals.. because your scoring is such a threat that the defense has no choice but to give John Paxson and Horace Grant wide open shots. And you can watch that whole series because that's exactly what it was.. MJ getting Grant and Paxson WIDE open shots.


Except here's the problem with your statement. Teams know Lebron is going to look to pass the ball first, it's something he has been doing since the very first day when he came into the league and broke the debut scoring record. So why would they double team Lebron unless they don't expect him to pass? Oh wait, they did. See Detroit series in 2007 when he put on a better close out performance than Jordan ever did. 



Hoodey said:


> Don't change the goalposts... you said, "making your teammates better." Assists measure direct impact of passing on points. So now, all you need to do is "run the team's offense" and you're fine? MJ was the most dominant scoring threat ever in big money playoff situations and then off of that came wide open shots for teammates.. like Shaq, like Kareem. THE three players who were so close to automatic offensively in their primes that you had one choice... send more defenders at them and give their teammates wide open shots.. whether they were super inventive in creating those shots or not.


If you think scoring is all you need to do to run a teams offense, you are sadly mistaking. There's a reason why Phil Jackson didn't want Jordan playing the PG position when he started coaching the team, I strongly suggest you look into why that was the case.



Hoodey said:


> MJ didn't need to walk into single coverage and then whip a behind the back no look bullet pass between two guys to a covered teammate like Magic.. MJ's scoring was too big of a threat and teams had a choice.. either let him get easy money or leave his teammates wide open.


So what you're saying is, he could do what Lebron does if he wanted to? That's laughable. 



Hoodey said:


> For another example of what I'm talking about... see "Shaq from 00-02" Please tell me you're not the guy who doesn't get it who just thinks that "Rick Fox and John Paxson were really, really good."


I don't need an example, I know what you're trying to say. But the thing is that you aren't getting it. Just because you get the easy pass in this situation doesn't make you a better facilitator. Life outside of basketball doesn't work like that and neither does life inside of basketball. 



Hoodey said:


> So, again, drawing a double team is a bad thing in your world? Because you continue to imply this. You continue to imply that it's only "really" making your teammates better if your OWN offense is worse.. so that you DONT draw a double team, so that your passes must be harder.


So then how am I saying that drawing double teams are bad things then? I'm clearly demonstrating what their benefits are when I point out how easily Jordan is getting his assists. Drawing these double teams and getting assists are excellent things to have. I'd rather have that than Lebron's method of getting assists. But you're trying to sit here and claim Jordan is suddenly better at getting his teammates involved because of it. That's not the case. He doesn't become better than Lebron at something just because the other team is causing that to happen. It's like saying the mentally handicapped kid is a better scorer than the other teams best player because the other team is letting the mentally handicapped kid score on purpose, while his team goes bad boy pistons style on the other team. There's no logic in it and I can't believe you're continuing to use it. 



Hoodey said:


> Like I said.. keep it to a few quotes.. less is more. I'm not getting into 65 quotes with you when you're saying the same 3 or 4 things in all of them...


Oh please, all of your quotes are pretty much the same thing. All you've done at this point is repeat yourself and not give any new evidence to support your claim.


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