# NYK acquires Marbury and Hardaway in trade



## Stevie B

Deal Eisley/McDyess/Ward/Vujanic to Suns. This will make them better but big contracts


----------



## krob

i bet frank williams gets traded now


----------



## krob

scratch that



> The Knicks acquire Marbury and Penny Hardaway from Phoenix for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, the rights to Milos Vujanic, two first-round draft picks, and cash, ESPN.com has learned.


they'll prolly put him back on the bench... good move by the knicks though


----------



## truth

HOLY #$$%^^^&^&

this is the full trade

The Knicks acquire Marbury and Penny Hardaway from Phoenix for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, the rights to Milos Vujanic, two first-round draft picks, and cash, ESPN.com has learned.


The trade still requires NBA approval. The Suns will get the Knicks' first-round pick this year and a future conditional first-round pick.


----------



## arenas809

did ANYONE see this coming???????

I sure as hell didn't


----------



## truth

i thought Dyss was a goner,but not for marbury


----------



## Laydensucks

*Is Lampe in this trade?*

I hope not. They are giving too much in giving the draft picks this year away. THis trade can backfire if the Knicks don't make the playoffs.


----------



## Brian34Cook

Wow.. My favorite player (Marbury) teaming up with Frankie.. Sweetness!


----------



## truth

I like frankie too,but i think he is a goner for darius Miles


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

Marbury is an awesome pickup for NY. Hope Penny's knee problems are really behind him, because otherwise the Knicks gave up a LOT for just Marbury.

But I guess the same can be said of Dice. He's just coming off injury as well and struggling. Interesting that he just got a big pep talk from Chaney right before this trade went down...





> Knicks Coach Don Chaney had a conversation with Antonio McDyess to lift his spirits yesterday morning. His words had resonance.
> 
> "It was long enough to come out with both of our heads in the right direction," Chaney said. "He doesn't want to hurt the team. My conversation with him is: `I'm playing you, I'm playing you not for sympathy, I'm playing you to help the team.'
> 
> "His knee is going to take a while. I guarantee and I think he knows I am in his corner 100 percent. I believe in him."
> 
> In a 95-85 loss to the Nets last night, McDyess played his best game since Dec. 20, scoring 14 points and grabbing 11 rebounds and playing with renewed confidence and relief.
> 
> "It definitely helped," McDyess said. "When you're frustrated and thinking a lot and not having anyone to talk to, you need someone to be in your ear and tell you positive things. I needed that to focus. Tonight I felt good. Hopefully, I stay that way."


----------



## Rashidi

Hold your horses.

I don't know if F-Will is gone. After all, Moochie sucks. The Knicks need 3 PGs, and I wouldn't put Penny at backup PG anymore.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

Marbury is an awesome pickup for NY. Hope Penny's knee problems are really behind him, because otherwise the Knicks gave up a LOT for just Marbury.

But I guess the same can be said of Dice. He's just coming off injury as well and struggling. Interesting that he just got a big pep talk from Chaney right before this trade went down...





> Knicks Coach Don Chaney had a conversation with Antonio McDyess to lift his spirits yesterday morning. His words had resonance.
> 
> "It was long enough to come out with both of our heads in the right direction," Chaney said. "He doesn't want to hurt the team. My conversation with him is: `I'm playing you, I'm playing you not for sympathy, I'm playing you to help the team.'
> 
> "His knee is going to take a while. I guarantee and I think he knows I am in his corner 100 percent. I believe in him."
> 
> In a 95-85 loss to the Nets last night, McDyess played his best game since Dec. 20, scoring 14 points and grabbing 11 rebounds and playing with renewed confidence and relief.
> 
> "It definitely helped," McDyess said. "When you're frustrated and thinking a lot and not having anyone to talk to, you need someone to be in your ear and tell you positive things. I needed that to focus. Tonight I felt good. Hopefully, I stay that way."


NY Times Jan 5 2004


----------



## Richie Rich

*Re: Is Lampe in this trade?*



> Originally posted by <b>Laydensucks</b>!
> I hope not. They are giving too much in giving the draft picks this year away. THis trade can backfire if the Knicks don't make the playoffs.








Is Lampe part of the deal? If so, wow, this is the definition of BLOCKBUSTER and ISIAH HAS SERIOUS GUTS.


----------



## HoustonHoopa33

This is a great trade for NY. Mutombo, Thomas, KVH, Houston and Marbury. What a deadly lineup. With Williams as a nice backup guard, and Anderson providing energy off the bench, this is a great move.


----------



## Matiz

Imo NY needed a player like Marbury... :yes: 
First Layden, now this... things are getting better for the knicks.


----------



## Starbury03

I say the Knicks will no get close to the finals this season I am so glad this trade happened for the knicks and the Suns are ****ing stupid. All of the trades they have doen gave them less talent.


----------



## Knicks Junkie

I am in utter disbelief right now. How did the Knicks acquire a player of Stephon Marbury's caliber with the current talent and long contracts that we have? Let's break it down.

The Knicks acquire Marbury and Penny Hardaway
The Suns acquire Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, the rights to Milos Vujanic, two first-round draft picks, and cash

What do we gain?
One of the top five point guards in the game (arguably top three). Pair Marbury and his versatility up with Allan Houston, KVH, Kurt Thomas, and Dikembe Mutombo and you are looking at serious contenders for the Eastern Conference Finals. However, they will need some time to gel, and at tenth place in the East, we better get our act together quickly. Most importantly, there will finally be no point guard controversy. Marbury is our best point guard since Derek Harper.
We also acquire Penny Hardaway's killer contract, but I am willing to take the salary cap hit if it means getting a player of Marbury's caliber. I mean, we used to have Howard Eisley, the queen of killer contracts. Plus, we have a legit backup two guard now and a decent bench. Our team has some balance for the first time in a long time.
I really want to see if Marbury and Van Horn can coexist. I don’t think there was any bad blood, but they did not have much success in New Jersey. Also, before the season started, Marbury made some comments about Van Horn not being New York material. It should be interesting.

What do we lose?
We finally gave up on our hope for the last couple years. Antonio was slow to come back from a two year hiatus, and understandably so. He did not play professional basketball for an extended period of time. However, giving up McDyess to get a player like Marbury is no sweat. We also give up our point guard rotation of the previous year. I am sad to see Charlie go, as he was the Knick with the longest tenure. Also, no matter the trade rumors, he gave it his all every game, and I really appreciated that. Howard Eisley was a mistake ever since he came to New York
This is where we get into the good stuff. 
We will not know for a couple of years whether Milos Vujanic will be a solid NBA player or not, but we had the chance to improve significantly now, and at best, Milos will develop into the player Marbury already is. The two first-round draft picks are what really hurt us. Unless we strike second round gold, we will not be able to improve significantly through the draft. That is a little bit concerning. Dikembe will almost be a hundred soon. Allan Houston and Penny Hardaway must be the oldest shooting guard rotation in the league. It would be nice to draft a young solid big man or a young crafty swingman ready to take over those spots. However, having the chance to be major contenders now was a chance Isiah had to take.

If everything gels, then we will be a force to be reckoned with this year. If everything does not gel, then we will have no draft picks or money, but some valuable trading commodities. All in all, this is the first Knicks blockbuster I am in full support of. Isiah deserves some major props for pulling this out of his posterior. Once again, I cannot express how ecstatic I am that Layden is out of town. The garden is back!


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

Hang on to your seats sports fans, it may not be over yet.

rlucas is posting on the Bulls board that he's heard rumors of the following:



> KVH and Frank Williams for Rasheed Wallace deal by nights end


----------



## KokoTheMonkey

Isiah Thomas is a god for the New York Knicks. This team has the talent already to be a playoff contender, and now this trade will take them a step further. 

I really don't know what the Suns are doing, since it appears they decided they wanted to rebuild in the middle of the season.


----------



## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>KokoTheMonkey</b>!
> Isiah Thomas is a god for the New York Knicks. This team has the talent already to be a playoff contender, and now this trade will take them a step further.
> 
> I really don't know what the Suns are doing, since it appears they decided they wanted to rebuild in the middle of the season.


lampe is gone too, knicks gave up too much. knicks took on 123 mill of contracts!!!


----------



## Knicks Junkie

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> Hang on to your seats sports fans, it may not be over yet.
> 
> rlucas is posting on the Bulls board that he's heard rumors of the following:


Dude. This is too much for a Knick fan to take in one day. Where the hell is my inhaler?


----------



## jokeaward

What a weird trade.

PHX breaks up the big three. So soon. They could have two Euro phenoms (odds are at least one will be great, right?), plus McDyess comes home and will at least expire, but they do get Eisley's deal.

And looking deeper, the Suns get cap space and draft picks. This is VERY unguaranteed, but if things go their way this could be a major recoup for the team this summer.

For NY, it seems like them. Go for now. An electrifying PG like Kidd or Marbury will be welcomed in NY. Penny'll fit in with the dinged, grizzled vets with big deals.

They'd really be set if they had 2 more Kurt Thomases.

P.S. I personally think Colangelo got the better of this deal, and he did get Richie Sexson and porevented him from going to the Dodgers/Padres and hammering the D'Backs with those teams.


----------



## arenas809

Colangelo is a genius...

AND...

Isiah is the best thing to happen to the Knicks in a while...

How anyone can sit here and complain or make a comment like "start firethomas.com" is an imbecile.


----------



## Rashidi

Eisley's deal is no worse than Penny's. In fact, Penny's is an albatross compared to Eisleys.

What would you rather have? 2 years of max money, or 3 years of half that? Do the math.


----------



## Dirtybirds81

Please lets not forget the aquisition of Cezary Trybanski.....LOL. Isiah seeing that he gives up Lampe still tries to keep the Poles happy. 

Anyway, this was a great move, is Scott Layden holding a press conference today? Nope.......he's in last place of his fantasy basketball league and desperately trying to work on a deal.


----------



## trueorfalse

> I am in utter disbelief right now. How did the Knicks acquire a player of Stephon Marbury's caliber with the current talent and long contracts that we have? Let's break it down...


Excellent post Knicks Junkie, I think there is nothing I disagree with.

I havent seen any suns games this year but it seems that they got the tail end of this trade.
Why I gods name did they decide to tank (and tank they will) this season? 

Weird.


----------



## AstheFranchiz2K2

Do you think marbury will be ready to play thursday night vs the rockets cuz im gonna be at the game?


----------



## HAWK23

PG-Marbury
SG-Houston
SF-Wallace
PF-Thomas
C-Mutombo

6th-Penny

Nice Team...


----------



## FSH

Awesome trade for the Knicks..But what are the Suns gonna do with McDyess? Play him at center? Suns really screwed up there team..The 2 first round picks are good for the Suns..But either the suns have something up there sleeve to sign a big name FA at the end of the year like Kobe or there GM really wants to rebuild around Barbosa


----------



## The True Essence

Suns look like their ready to tank the year and mcdyess and ward come off the books this year.

well, i welcome penny to new york!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hope he doesnt break his knee.

and i welcome marbury back!!!!!!! thats a STAR player isaiah was talking about


----------



## nixfan

*plain awful*

What the hell is going on here? This move is flat out terrible! Just awful. Marbury?! This guy is not championship quality. You absolutely can not win a championship with him at point guard. Not possible. You don't even need to mention Penny, he's completely washed up. I don't care about a single one of these players we gave up as far as their ability on the floor, except Lampe. What I do care about is that McDysse and Ward both were on their last yer of there contracts, which added up to 18 Million. We had to wait a half a season, and then we would have actaully cleared up some cap room. What is unbelievable is that we traded 2 first rounders as well. So basically, we practically traded four years of draft picks. We traded this upcoming pick, a future pick, Lampe, and McDysse who we got for the 7th pick two years ago. All this for one all-star who is notorious for being a bad team player? Why didn't we just let Ward and McDysse walk, sign some high caliber free agent, build the team up through the draft, and start a new foundation around them and the young guys like Williams, Lampe and Sweetney. Instead, we have the '97 New Jersey Nets with Marbury and Van Horn. This team is garbage. Absolutely no hope for at 4 years. I care if Marbury brings us to the playoffs, we were in the playoffs every. Its time for a championship. I want one in my lifetime. Why has the second round become our goal now? This move just shows Dolan doesn't give a damb about the future as long as the garden is selling out. Ishia Thomas should be hung.


----------



## HKF

*Re: plain awful*



> Originally posted by <b>nixfan</b>!
> What the hell is going on here? This move is flat out terrible! Just awful. Marbury?! This guy is not championship quality. You absolutely can not win a championship with him at point guard. Not possible. You don't even need to mention Penny, he's completely washed up. I don't care about a single one of these players we gave up as far as their ability on the floor, except Lampe. What I do care about is that McDysse and Ward both were on their last yer of there contracts, which added up to 18 Million. We had to wait a half a season, and then we would have actaully cleared up some cap room. What is unbelievable is that we traded 2 first rounders as well. So basically, we practically traded four years of draft picks. We traded this upcoming pick, a future pick, Lampe, and McDysse who we got for the 7th pick two years ago. All this for one all-star who is notorious for being a bad team player? Why didn't we just let Ward and McDysse walk, sign some high caliber free agent, build the team up through the draft, and start a new foundation around them and the young guys like Williams, Lampe and Sweetney. Instead, we have the '97 New Jersey Nets with Marbury and Van Horn. This team is garbage. Absolutely no hope for at 4 years. I care if Marbury brings us to the playoffs, we were in the playoffs every. Its time for a championship. I want one in my lifetime. Why has the second round become our goal now? This move just shows Dolan doesn't give a damb about the future as long as the garden is selling out. Ishia Thomas should be hung.


You my friend are clinically insane :krazy:

My main man Starbury in New York. Looks like I will be going to the Garden to check out some games now, because he is my second favorite pro player. The prodigal son has finally returned. Yes.


----------



## nixfan

*great*

You're right. It is good that Knicks have given up any hope rebuilding and putting a championship quality team out there for half a decade because Hong Kong Fooey's main man is on the team now. Great, Knick fans have sold their soul for mediocrity and a home grown player. Who cares if we make the playoffs? Over half the teams in the NBA make the playoffs. Is that what we want? Abondoning hopes for a championship that we haven't had in decades for AVERAGE? This is the NEW YORK KNICKS! Not the Clippers. Average is not an acomplishment. Everytime someone says, "Marbury is here, got to buy tickets." Or "at least me made the playoffs," Dolan smiles and thinks "great, I can sell out the garden every night with an average to below average product." You have been bought out. This move was made to get people spending money on the knicks again, not to make them a better franshise. I'm sick, vommiting with rage.


----------



## Bad Bartons

This is an unbelievable trade for the knicks!

I cannot believe that there is a Knick fan that is not delighted.

Phoenix just gave up on a superstar and superstars are very hard to get.

The fact that Stephon is a New York boy even makes the deal sweeter. There will be more interest and ticket and merchandise sales.

I am in shock!

Layden has been trying to move some of the horrible untradable contracts and players on the Knicks for years with no success. Isiah makes what looks to be bigger than anything Layden did and he just got to NY.

Great trade for the Knicks.


----------



## tha supes

i'm gonna have to change this on espn basketball,maybe the knicks will be good to play with now.


----------



## nixfan

> Originally posted by <b>Bad Bartons</b>!
> This is an unbelievable trade for the knicks!
> 
> I cannot believe that there is a Knick fan that is not delighted.
> 
> Phoenix just gave up on a superstar and superstars are very hard to get.
> 
> The fact that Stephon is a New York boy even makes the deal sweeter. There will be more interest and ticket and merchandise sales.
> 
> I am in shock!
> 
> Layden has been trying to move some of the horrible untradable contracts and players on the Knicks for years with no success. Isiah makes what looks to be bigger than anything Layden did and he just got to NY.
> 
> Great trade for the Knicks.


wrong


----------



## son of oakley

Isiah say the team still needs to get more athletic. I don't think he's done yet. Considering the bad blood between VH and Marbury I wouldn't be surprised to see Keith moved next.

One thing I must say about the trade. The Knicks did trade away a lot of cap flexibility, but we knew they weren't going to use it, Dolan said no to a rebuild. And I mean, what we're they going to do, wait till the end of the year and let Ward and McDyess just walk, freeing up money, then go for free agent? To what, get into a bidding war to try to get someone as good but just not Marbury? NY is not a hot destination these days, we'd have come up short.

Also, in terms of talent given up. I didn't want to see Thomas or Houston go, and I'd have thought at least a VH would have to go to get back talent. But we gave up essentially NO proven commodities. Not even little Frankie Williams.

Sure I'd have loved to keep Lampe. But think about it, how much are you willing to bet (not hope, but bet) that he'd turn out to be better even than a Van Horn? He might, but what are the odds? So we keep the proven "talent" (I'm not a big VH lover) and move the prospect. Ditto Vajunic. He might turn out great, but how much are you willing to truly bet he'd be better than Ward, or Williams, let alone a Marbury?

And Frankly, I'm relieved to have McDyess' knee out of here, and Ward's always impending trade, and Eisley's... well, Eisley...

So we take a VERY good player - borderline superstar - better than Sprewell, as good as Houston (probably better) - for so little proven talent. Plus the decent PG/SG backup we were looking for in Hardaway.

And it's not like Marbury is old. And of all our big contracts (Houston, VH, Marbury, (Hardaway)) Marbury's is probably the most tradeable.

So yes, we lost our youth, and we lost our flexibility, but you don't get something great for nothing. AND, we still have pieces with value. Some package including parts (not all) comprised of Williams, VH, Thomas, Doleac, Sweetney, can net still more in the open market.

Definitely a high stakes gamble, and only time will tell, but we got something real for the price of a rumour, with chips still in our pocket. We came into the casino down, now we're up. How bad is that?


----------



## benfica

*My gosch*

This has to be one of the worst trades ever.


----------



## Rashidi

No, Robert Traylor for Dirk Nowitzki and Pat Garrity was one of the worst trades ever.


----------



## dcrono3

You can look at this trade in two ways...
The Good (for Knicks):
They get Marbury, one of the top 3 point guards in the game. He is right there behind Kidd as the best PG. Penny will be a decent backup SG. Marbury will definately sell tickets, as hometown boy comes home. The Knicks give up no proven players to get a superstar in Marbury. The new Knicks lineup is also better. 
PG: Marbury/Williams
SG: Houston/Hardaway
SF: Van Horn/Anderson
PF: Thomas/Harrington/Sweetney
C: Mutombo/Doleac
Sweetney might actually get some playing time now and show us why he was the #9 pick in 2003. Houston has a backup that will not kill the Knicks, Marbury is a STAR... 
In fact, it is possible that Milos Vujanic or Lampe will not turn into the superstars they were thought to be. The main reason Vujanic was unwilling to sign a contract with the Knicks was because the Knicks had a glut of PGs. He was unwilling to be the 4th PG on the team, and signed a 2 (or 3? I'm not quite sure) year contract with his team in Europe this summer. The Knicks would have to buy out his contract or wait. Vujanic probably would not have come to the Knicks anyway, with Ward, Eisley, and Mochie on the team and Frank Williams playing well. Thomas ripped Lampe and probably does not have a high opinion of him. The fact that both Vujanic and Lampe are unproven makes this trade somewhat a steal for the Knicks. Of course both players have a bunch of potential, but Kwame Brown has a bunch of potential too, and look what he has done for the Wizards. This trade with definately sell tickets, and make the Knicks a playoff contender and possiibly a contender for the Eastern Conference Champions. I loved it when the Knicks made the finals in 1999 as the 8th seed, and witht he Eastern Conference wideopen with no dominate team, the Knicks could do it again. The Knicks might not be good enough to win the championship, but which East team is? The two 1st round picks the Knicks gave might seem like a lot, but to tell the truth, the Knicks almost never use their picks well anyway. Isiah is betting that the Knicks will make the playoffs, so their draft pick is going to be around mid-first. You look at what the Knicks have gotten in their previous 1st round picks, Walter McCarty, Dontae' Jones, John Wallace, John Thomas, Donnell Harvey, Frank Williams, and Michael Sweetney. Only Frank Williams has performed decently, and not until recently after Thomas came to power. True, those picks were in the later part of the 1st, but Thomas is hoping the Knicks can improve so their pick is in at least the mid-1st. If I recall correctly, Fredrick Weis was drafted in the mid-first too, 16 I think? In short, the Knicks made themselves contenders again by giving up a part of their future.
The bad:
As I said, the Knicks might be contenders in the East, but this is not a team that will win a championship. I do not know what other fans think, but the ultimate goal for a team is to win the championships, not just your conference. The current Knicks team is good, but still not good enough, and they basically traded away their future. Vujanic and Lampe were suppose to be building blocks, not trade bait. Two first round draft picks? That is a lot, and the Knicks gave up 4 pieces of their future just to get Marbury and Penny's max contract. Paying a bench player the max, 17 million+? That is insane. The Knicks are in serious salary cap hell too. The extra money earned by more tickets will just go to pay for the luxery tax. If Vujanic and Lampe turn into stars, then Thomas deserves to be hanged. The Knicks gave up way too much for Marbury, especially if this backfires and the Knicks end up in the lottery and lose the chance to draft Ben Gooden, who looks like Thomas' kind of PG to me. The fact that the Knicks gave up their future for a few more years of mediocrity is a big no no. Fans want to see the Knicks win the championship, bit get into the playoffs as a low seed and lose in the first few rounds.

Personally, I like the trade somewhat, but still think the Knicks gave up way too much. Vujanic and Lampe all have flaws now, but WHAT IF they turned out as hyped? Maybe the Knicks would be bona fide NBA champion contenders. The two 1st rounders are a lot too. I love Marbury as a player, and he really has matured since going to Pheonix, and would really like to see him as a Knick. However, the price just seems a bit high, since Marbury is probably all that the Knicks really got. Penny is a decent player, but look at that contract. Cezary Trybanski looks like a throw in rightnow. The trade is done, so I guess there isn't much use to complain. Hopfully this trade will not come back to haunt the Knicks. If Vujanic and Lampe develope and the two 1st rounders turn out to be good....I do not even want to think about it. Well, I just hope the Knicks make the playyoffs now, and maybe with some miracles, they can be like they were in 1999.


----------



## Rashidi

> . Penny is a decent player, but look at that contract.


Don't worry, people would rather have Penny's albatross contract despite the fact that he'll give a similar contribution that of Howard Eisley because...

1. No contract could EVER be worse than Howard Eisley's (apparantly not true, but I expect Penny's contract to be ignored like Larry Johnson's was).

2. Penny is a name brand player, who had a lot of fans in NY prior to injuries. Eisley's claim to fame was being Stockton's backup.


----------



## truth

are you eislys lover:yes: what gives??

what is your obcession with Eisly??he was terrible


----------



## g_prince_4_lyfe

*Re: My gosch*



> Originally posted by <b>benfica</b>!
> This has to be one of the worst trades ever.


Yeah, it's the worst trade Pheonix has ever done! As for New York, it's one of the best things they've ever done in a while! 

Sure, they're OBVIOUSLY not going to win a championship! Whoever said that is on crack! Playoff contenders? Well, they're getting there! I mean, they had a bad start this season! They're currently 14-21, but of course this is the east! They're STILL in the playoff hunt! But let's just see how this team will play! Who knows if there will still be the Van Horn/Marbury issue from those horrible days in NJ!


----------



## Springsteen

*Re: plain awful*



> Originally posted by <b>nixfan</b>!
> What the hell is going on here? This move is flat out terrible! Just awful. Marbury?! This guy is not championship quality. You absolutely can not win a championship with him at point guard. Not possible. You don't even need to mention Penny, he's completely washed up. I don't care about a single one of these players we gave up as far as their ability on the floor, except Lampe. What I do care about is that McDysse and Ward both were on their last yer of there contracts, which added up to 18 Million. We had to wait a half a season, and then we would have actaully cleared up some cap room. What is unbelievable is that we traded 2 first rounders as well. So basically, we practically traded four years of draft picks. We traded this upcoming pick, a future pick, Lampe, and McDysse who we got for the 7th pick two years ago. All this for one all-star who is notorious for being a bad team player? Why didn't we just let Ward and McDysse walk, sign some high caliber free agent, build the team up through the draft, and start a new foundation around them and the young guys like Williams, Lampe and Sweetney. Instead, we have the '97 New Jersey Nets with Marbury and Van Horn. This team is garbage. Absolutely no hope for at 4 years. I care if Marbury brings us to the playoffs, we were in the playoffs every. Its time for a championship. I want one in my lifetime. Why has the second round become our goal now? This move just shows Dolan doesn't give a damb about the future as long as the garden is selling out. Ishia Thomas should be hung.


I agree completely. When Layden made a similar trade last year, trading away Nene for McD, he was criticized. If Layden makes this trade, all the Knick fans out there say it's garbage b/c they have mortgaged the future. The Knicks get Marbury, that's great, but look at the bigger picture, they are stuck with this team for the next 4 years more or less, with all the big contracts they have. All of their players are old more or less, is it plausible to think that any of them are going to get any better? Probably not. They clearly can't build through the draft anymore. Sure, the Knicks can't rebuild 'cause their fans are too impatient, but now they are stuck with the 6th seed in the East for a few years now, instead of missing the playoffs this year, getting a good draft pick and slowly developing talent.

I'm going to say this now, this trade is going to be looked upon in 5 years as the worst trade in Knick history. Yeah, I understand they got Marbury who's a very good player, but he's not going to help them win anything...


----------



## Richie Rich

*Re: Re: plain awful*



> Originally posted by <b>Springsteen</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree completely. When Layden made a similar trade last year, trading away Nene for McD, he was criticized. If Layden makes this trade, all the Knick fans out there say it's garbage b/c they have mortgaged the future. The Knicks get Marbury, that's great, but look at the bigger picture, they are stuck with this team for the next 4 years more or less, with all the big contracts they have. All of their players are old more or less, is it plausible to think that any of them are going to get any better? Probably not. They clearly can't build through the draft anymore. Sure, the Knicks can't rebuild 'cause their fans are too impatient, but now they are stuck with the 6th seed in the East for a few years now, instead of missing the playoffs this year, getting a good draft pick and slowly developing talent.
> 
> I'm going to say this now, this trade is going to be looked upon in 5 years as the worst trade in Knick history. Yeah, I understand they got Marbury who's a very good player, but he's not going to help them win anything...








GooD PoinT........


----------



## gony4983

Yo you pessimists are rediculous. Marbury's not a championship quality player? You must be forgetting that he's 26 and getting into the prime of his career. Jesus. Not only is he one of the best PGs, but he's young, too. How is this starting lineup not better than the one they had before? Penny's good off the bench, too.

Thomas is doing a great job at curing my Layden hangover in very little time.


----------



## son of oakley

*Re: Re: plain awful*



> Originally posted by <b>Springsteen</b>!
> 
> Sure, the Knicks can't rebuild 'cause their fans are too impatient


This colloquialism is parroted so much it's accepted as truth. Who has polled the Knick fans? The reason they aren't rebuilding is because the owner doesn't want to. 

The fans want change. If we could change the owner we would. But since we can't we fight for what we can: fire Layden, fire chaney, get us someone good! It doesn't have to be now, but we have to see a plan. if the plan was to wait out the year and let Dyess and Ward walk, and somehow dump contracts, to make a move at a franchise player, I think most fans would have gone for that. At least it would have been a plan. 

Layden tried to have it both ways, trying to improve while giving nothing up. He moved slower than the mountains. And NY hasn't exactly been a magnet for talent.

When was the last time we won a battle for a franchise free agent? Did we land Webber, or Duncan, or any of the others? Do you think we would this time? I don't even think there are a great flock of FA this year, nor could we afford one. So how long do we wait to add an allstar, until our only really good present player (Houston, age 32) is well past prime? And pray that Vajuvnic will come play for us? ("Oh, pretty please come play, we promis we'll start you, even if Williams turns out to be a better player!" Damn, if this kid believes in himself he'd know he could have beat out Ward, Eisley and the pack.) And pray that Lampe becomes as good as Van Horn is now? It's possible he'll be better, but you can't take it to the bank, he might be well worse.

No, with the addition of Mutombo, our starting roster, short of the PG spot, was more balanced than it's been in years. In the future, with Deke gone, Houston older, VH older, KT older... the addition of a franchise player might be moot.





> but now they are stuck with the 6th seed in the East for a few years now, instead of missing the playoffs this year, getting a good draft pick and slowly developing talent.


Slowly has been put on hold, and the quality of the talent is suspect. Most drafts don't pan out anyway. Here we got an allstar, a proven talent, for the price of tokens on a slot machine. 

The Knicks made a bold move and no one is certain the dealing is over. For anyone who wanted change, or wanted to see a plan, we got one. Careful what you wish for...

Now let's run with it and hope it works out.


----------



## Rashidi

> Who has polled the Knick fans? The reason they aren't rebuilding is because the owner doesn't want to.


HAH!

HAH!

Who has polled the Knick fans?

The acquisition of Marbury IS the poll! And so far, most Knick fans have pretty much called it a success. The poll is when Marbury gets announced in the starting lineup and the fans give him a standing ovation much louder than the one they gave Spree.

Dolan is a genius because he can take advantage of guillible NY fans who are stuck so much on themselves being "the smartest fans in the world" to bother realizing that this not only gives Dolan a chance to raise ticket prices again, but it also further prolongs the Knicks from winning a championship for the next decade.


----------



## son of oakley

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> The acquisition of Marbury IS the poll!


Not necessarily. I was in favor of blowing the team up and rebuilding. But once that was declared a non-option one moves forward. In the realm of winning now, I don't think anyone could have done better.




> Dolan is a genius because he can take advantage of guillible NY fans who are stuck so much on themselves being "the smartest fans in the world" to bother realizing that this not only gives Dolan a chance to raise ticket prices again, but it also further prolongs the Knicks from winning a championship for the next decade.



I'm saying I don't think the prospects of Lampe, Vajunic, and 2 non-lottery drafts, along with the existing large contracts of this team, made for a great base to build from. We were left stuck between having some "possible" youth talent, and overpriced veterans that would have been hard to move without giving up the youth. Just waiting for the contracts to expire, with the talent already on board, wasn't getting us into good draft position. So either way, a championship was miles off.

Let's face it. the best time to rebuild would have been before Houston was signed. But once we had Houston, Eisley Anderson, and Spoon signed up, we were caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.

Which ever way we chose, rebuild or mae a trade like this, would leave people criticizing the direction taken. But at least a direction was taken. Just going the course, a la Layden, had everyone upset. Well, everyone but you.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

*Re: plain awful*



> Originally posted by <b>nixfan</b>!
> What the hell is going on here? This move is flat out terrible! Just awful. Marbury?! This guy is not championship quality. You absolutely can not win a championship with him at point guard. Not possible. You don't even need to mention Penny, he's completely washed up. I don't care about a single one of these players we gave up as far as their ability on the floor, except Lampe. What I do care about is that McDysse and Ward both were on their last yer of there contracts, which added up to 18 Million. We had to wait a half a season, and then we would have actaully cleared up some cap room. What is unbelievable is that we traded 2 first rounders as well. So basically, we practically traded four years of draft picks. We traded this upcoming pick, a future pick, Lampe, and McDysse who we got for the 7th pick two years ago. All this for one all-star who is notorious for being a bad team player? Why didn't we just let Ward and McDysse walk, sign some high caliber free agent, build the team up through the draft, and start a new foundation around them and the young guys like Williams, Lampe and Sweetney. Instead, we have the '97 New Jersey Nets with Marbury and Van Horn. This team is garbage. Absolutely no hope for at 4 years. I care if Marbury brings us to the playoffs, we were in the playoffs every. Its time for a championship. I want one in my lifetime. Why has the second round become our goal now? This move just shows Dolan doesn't give a damb about the future as long as the garden is selling out. Ishia Thomas should be hung.



This move isn't terrible, and I think Steph could be part of a championship team.


I do agree with most everything else you have posted. We pretty much gave up our future for the next four years, just to have a chance at mediocrity in the playoffs.

This does not sit well with me. So many good players are coming out this year that would help solve a lot of our position problems. 

I don't like giving away that many picks, I think once again Dolan is doing whatever it takes to make the playoffs for one more year. He cares nothing about this team and only about playoff money. He has no pride in being a team owner.


For all the people saying sophmoric things like, " AT LEAST THIS WILL SELL MORE TICKETS" or " JERSEY SALES WILL GO UP" or " THE KNICKS WILL BE MORE FUN TO WATCH", apply those phrases to YOUR favorite team, and subtract away their future of doing ANYTHING for the next four years.


Makes the pill a bit harder to swallow huh?

As a Knick fan what the hell do I care if the Garden sells more seats or I see more people with steph jerseys? All that does is line Dolan's pocket and ensure his longevity,



If we deal for Rasheed, I am done with this team.


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

Also, I find it ironic that we traded for steph as our star, when we have two players on our roster he doesn't get along with at all. KVH and Hardaway. Wasn't one of Penny's major gripes in phoenix that he had to play behind steph?


So now we took that conflict, added it to our roster, and threw KVH in the mix.


----------



## Jermyzy

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> No, Robert Traylor for Dirk Nowitzki and Pat Garrity was one of the worst trades ever.


well in retrospect...yes...but at the time, Traylor was highly touted coming out of college.


----------



## nixfan

*Re: Re: My gosch*



> Originally posted by <b>g_prince_4_lyfe</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, it's the worst trade Pheonix has ever done!


Pheonix is setting themselves up for a championship. They already have two stars attained through the draft, Marion and Stoudamire. They are going to have 30 mil in cap room freed up after McDysse, Ward and Gugliatta leave to sign big name free agents with. And they have potentially 4, minimum three first, first rounders coming up. At least two will be lottery picks. Oh yeah, horrible move for them. Its a shame for them that they dumped a locker room cancer and a 14 million dollar cripple. All the suns fans are kicking themselves after a team that wasn't working got broken up in exchange for a bright future. Boy, isn't great that the knicks have a slightly better line up this year and might make the playoffs only to be bounced out in the first or second round. I'm jumping for joy that we are in the same situation we have been in for a decade. 
Prediction: Suns win a championship in the next 6 years


----------



## son of oakley

*Re: Re: Re: My gosch*



> Originally posted by <b>nixfan</b>!
> 
> Pheonix is setting themselves up for a championship. They already have two stars attained through the draft, Marion and Stoudamire. They are going to have 30 mil in cap room freed up after McDysse, Ward and Gugliatta leave to sign big name free agents with. And they have potentially 4, minimum three first, first rounders coming up. At least two will be lottery picks. Oh yeah, horrible move for them. Its a shame for them that they dumped a locker room cancer and a 14 million dollar cripple. All the suns fans are kicking themselves after a team that wasn't working got broken up in exchange for a bright future. Boy, isn't great that the knicks have a slightly better line up this year and might make the playoffs only to be bounced out in the first or second round. I'm jumping for joy that we are in the same situation we have been in for a decade.
> Prediction: Suns win a championship in the next 6 years


It was a good move for the Suns, but that doesn't make it bad for NY. The difference is the Suns have good quality young talent to build around. It gives them the luxury to take time. Not to mention some of that same talent, namely Amare Stoudemire, are *cheap*.

Knicks, on the other hand, have middling, aging, and expensive existing talent, which makes tham hard to move, and leaves us waiting a long time to be sufficiently under the cap to make a move on a big player, even letting go of Ward and Mcdyess. Plus, while we know Phoenix's youth is good, we know little about Vajunic, Lampe, and whatever other mid level first round picks might have come our way.

This is coming from someone who wanted to rebuild. But given the present composition of our team, that would have been a lot harder and slower for us than Phoenix. And I never foresaw Marbury coming. He's a premeir player. You don't know if or when we could have landed another player of his caliber. Think about it, who've we had this good in the 20 years since Bernard King? Ewing, Houston (???) and...


----------



## Juan

If Steph is so good then why has he been traded so mmany times already? The guy is selfish and everywhere he has gone, they have gone down hill. I don't see the trend changing, he is a score firts pass second type of point guard who blames the talent around him when they don't win, look at what he said about NJ.


----------



## nixfan

*Re: Re: Re: Re: My gosch*



> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> Knicks, on the other hand, have middling, aging, and expensive existing talent, which makes tham hard to move, and leaves us waiting a long time to be sufficiently under the cap to make a move on a big player, even letting go of Ward and Mcdyess. Plus, while we know Phoenix's youth is good, we know little about Vajunic, Lampe, and whatever other mid level first round picks might have come our way.
> This is coming from someone who wanted to rebuild. But given the present composition of our team, that would have been a lot harder and slower for us than Phoenix. And I never foresaw Marbury coming. He's a premeir player. You don't know if or when we could have landed another player of his caliber. Think about it, who've we had this good in the 20 years since Bernard King? Ewing, Houston (???) and...


What aging talent did we have that were so hard to move? Eisly, not talent; Houston, he's not that old. All the other big contracts would be gone after this year except KVH. Whats the difference if we don't know about Lampe? Thats because no one here watches European basketball. How is he less predictalbe than any other teenager coming into the league? Or any rookie for that matter? All young players need time to develop. Marbury has had better players around him his entire career, why can't he win? What would be wrong about building around the youth that we had, getting players through the draft, and signing free agents? It is hypocritical to call me a pestimist for this move, because if you like it, it means you have no faith in Sweetney, Williams, Lampe and Vajunic.


----------



## son of oakley

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My gosch*



> Originally posted by <b>nixfan</b>!
> 
> What aging talent did we have that were so hard to move? Eisly, not talent; Houston, he's not that old.


Houston is 32 now. Just losing Ward and McDyess would not get us under the cap, thus not able to make a move on a big player. Probably would have had to wait until Eisley and Anderson's contracts expired. I'm not going to look up Eisley but Anderson's 8.5mil doesn't expire till 2006/07. Houston will be 35 then. And as you said, Eisley isn't talent, which means you don't want to keep him, and can't necessarily trade him (without gving up talent, youth, or drafts.)




> All the other big contracts would be gone after this year except KVH. Whats the difference if we don't know about Lampe? Thats because no one here watches European basketball. How is he less predictalbe than any other teenager coming into the league? Or any rookie for that matter? All young players need time to develop.


That's true and bolsters my point, that by the time we are under the cap and ready to make a move on a great player,we don't know we have a cast to support him. Phoenix can make a big move this season, WITH a good supporting cast.



> It is hypocritical to call me a pestimist for this move,


Hold on, I didn't call anybody anything, I spoke for myself.



> because if you like it, it means you have no faith in Sweetney, Williams, Lampe and Vajunic.


To be clear, all I've seen are Williams and Sweetney, and I don't invest a lot in things I've never seen. Williams looked nice, especially relative to our PG stagnancy of the last 10 years, but nothing outrageous. Sweetney looks like a journeyman to me. And I have no faith that Vajunic or Williams is better than Marbury, and that Lampe is better than VH, and that Sweetney is better than Spoon. I accept that anyone of them may turn out better than the comparative (and then, he may not) but I certainly have NO faith all will turn out better.

So my question is, why is it better to risk getting Marbury like talent later, to support Sweetney, Vajunic, Lampe, Williams, etc, when you can have him now to support Motumbo, VH, Houston, Williams, etc?


----------



## nixfan

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: My gosch*



> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> 
> So my question is, why is it better to risk getting Marbury like talent later, to support Sweetney, Vajunic, Lampe, Williams, etc, when you can have him now to support Motumbo, VH, Houston, Williams, etc?



Getting Marbury is the complete opposite of risk. Everyone knows exactly whats goign to happen. Early round playoff exit. It happens with every team with Marbury, he sucks them into a black hole of mediocrity. Why not take risks with the young talent we have and the draft. At least there is hope there. At least we can say we are trying to build a foundation for a championship. 
Secondly Marbury is not coming here to support Houston, VH, Williams, and Mutombo. They are here to support Marbury now. I hate how Isiah Thomas is getting called gutsy for this. This is a wimpy move. He sacrificed years potential, because he knew it would popular among the home crowd to bring in a local boy, and fans would be bought of with immediate improvements.


----------



## Springsteen

> Originally posted by <b>gony4983</b>!
> Yo you pessimists are rediculous. Marbury's not a championship quality player? You must be forgetting that he's 26 and getting into the prime of his career. Jesus. Not only is he one of the best PGs, but he's young, too. How is this starting lineup not better than the one they had before? Penny's good off the bench, too.
> 
> Thomas is doing a great job at curing my Layden hangover in very little time.


Seriously? A championship quality player? Where has Marbury won before? He's a good player certainly, but saying he is championship quality...I'm not to sure.

One thing that troubles me, is when Marbury's teams start losing, he starts complaining. The Knicks aren't going to dominate like Sacto or the Lakers. If you get the griping Marbury that was present in Minnesota and NJ, then this is an awful trade. If at 26 he is more mature then he was at 23, then it's not so bad. But I'm not going back on what I said earlier. This trade is going to be looked on in the future as a mess for New York, and unless Phoenix lands a quality FA next year, or makes a good draft or two, it's not much for them either.


----------



## Bad Bartons

> Originally posted by <b>nixfan</b>!
> 
> wrong


Great argument! 

You have such a way with word.


----------



## Rashidi

> Think about it, who've we had this good in the 20 years since Bernard King? Ewing, Houston (???) and...


Sprewell.


----------



## Rashidi

and Keith Van Horn.


----------



## son of oakley

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> and Keith Van Horn.


I can only hope this is more self mockery.


----------



## Rashidi

You hope wrong.


----------



## truth

Well one thing is becoming clear...

we have 2/5 of rashidis all start team

Point guard...Howard Eisly
SF..................Keith van Horn
Gm................Layden

Head scouts...Dont need them

more to come


----------



## dcrono3

Rashidi do you really think KVH is a star player and is worth the max contract he has?


----------



## Rashidi

If Rasheed Wallace is worth 17 million, then Keith Van Horn is worth 13 million.


----------



## truth

but do you think KVH is a star player????

I dont


----------



## knicksfan

okay, rashidi 

KVH is NOT worth the 13 million he makes, but you are right on one thing though! Sheed isnt worth no 17 million. When sheed is gonna be a free agent this yr expect him to make around the 11-12 mark. van horn doesnt even deserve THAT!!


----------



## Rashidi

Sheed isn't going to make 11-12 million. Nobody is that crazy.


----------



## truth

you think sheed makes less than that next year???


----------



## Rashidi

Lamar Odom is making 10 million this season.

Wallace is not much better than Odom.

Odom is considered overpaid because of his "track record".

Wallace's track record is far worse than Odom's.

The only way he gets big money is if he signs a 2-3 year deal. He's not going to get 11 million+ per in a 5-7 year deal. That's a 60-80 million investment on a borderline all-star with all sorts of problems on and off the court.


----------



## truth

odoms track record is pretty bad....he had some major alledged legal issues regarding rape in college or before,and i believe he had some drug issues..i think....you are right though..i doubt anyone locks up rashed long term for big money


----------



## Rashidi

The other factor to consider is that Odom got a long term deal because he was young.

Rasheed is not young anymore. Giving Wallace 5-7 years and big money is hardly advantageous to any team. He won't be worth the money at the end of the contract, which means you now have an overpaid veteran cancer that can't keep his mouth shut. Which is pretty hard to trade.


----------



## dcrono3

Finally something I agree Rashidi. I agree that Odom got all that money because he was young and still has potential to become even better. You can't argue that Odom has skills and can be a better player.Sheed is getting old and will not get a lot of money if he signs a long-term contract. If he signs for only a few years, however, it is possible for him to earn 11 + million I think. 

Another factor to consider on why Odom is being payed so much. He was a restricted free agent last year, and the Heat probably had to overpay to make sure the Clippers didn't match the offer. The Clippers' owner is notoriously stingy with his money, not that it helped with Brand and Magette (sp?) signing only to get matched.


----------



## Rashidi

If I were Miami I'd try to trade Jones for a decent center, and put Odom at PG.

C - Some Center
PF - Brian Grant
SF - Caron Butler
SG - Dwyane Wade
PG - Lamar Odom

That's a spooky lineup with a good future ahead of them.


----------



## dcrono3

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> If I were Miami I'd try to trade Jones for a decent center, and put Odom at PG.
> 
> C - Some Center
> PF - Brian Grant
> SF - Caron Butler
> SG - Dwyane Wade
> PG - Lamar Odom
> 
> That's a spooky lineup with a good future ahead of them.


Good future for Wade, Odom (if he gets his off court problems resolved) and Butler if all three can shake off the injury bug, but Grant? How old is that guy? 31? You don't rebuild around a 31 year old, IMO. And the center you get has to be relatively young too. How many young, decent centers are there in the league that will be available for Jones, an overpaid 32 year old with diminished skills?


----------



## Rashidi

Diminished skills? Jones has yet to diminish in skill. As for who could be acquired for him, if a playoff team wants additional firepower, they'll go for Jones. His contract also ends fairly soon. I'm not saying that they'll acquire a Jamal Magloire. I'm sure Miami would be very happy if they could get Kelvin Cato and someone else. I'm sure JVG would also rather have Jones' defense than Mobley's gunning. That's a trade scenario that could definitely work out for both sides, depending on the other players involved.

Grant is a veteran big man that can rebound. Age does not matter for bangers like him. Just ask the Oak man, or Horace Grant, or Kevin Willis, etc. And who is rebuilding around him? The core is Odom, Butler, and Wade. Are young teams not allowed to have a veteran presence?

Old age affects guards more than big men. Big men don't rely on quickness nearly as much.


----------

