# Official 2004 Raptors Draft Thread



## bigbabyjesus

took this from the bulls forum, but meh.

the raptors should have a pick anywhere from 10-18 where there will be a lot of solid prospects available.

theres a good mix of college/high school/international prospects this year, which should make for a good draft, certainly not as good as last year though.

discuss players we could realistically chose, with our first rounder, or clevelands first rounder. we could really suck for the rest of the season, anything could happen, and end up with a high pick. some of the prospects to discuss.

andre iguodala
jameer nelson
pavel podkolzine
ben gordon
sebastian telfair
kosta perovic
raymond felton
kris humphries. 

ect.

*COULD A MOD PLEASE STICKY THIS*


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## onecooljew

You should also add Hakim Warrick to that list.

I think the two best possible lineups for next year would be Felton-Rose-VC-Marshall-Bosh or Rose-VC-Warrick-Marshall-Bosh.

Warrick's stock has been falling as of late but i think he would bring some much needed athletisicm to the team


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## charlz

unless we are in the lottery I think the cavs get our pick this year - as part of the Yogi for Lamond deal.

Can someone confirm this?


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## onecooljew

> Originally posted by <b>charlz</b>!
> unless we are in the lottery I think the cavs get our pick this year - as part of the Yogi for Lamond deal.
> 
> Can someone confirm this?


No one is still quite sure about the pick..some say its top 18 protected...some say its only lottery protected..??


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## macro6

I heard its TOP 18 protected.

BEN GORDAN! :yes: 

or

Sabastian Telfair.


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## derzo

I've heard top 18 protected this year, top 17 for next year, etc...

With the pick, I'd wanna get Teflair but that would only happen if we're around the 10th pick. If he's gone, a pass first point guard would be best. This draft has a lot of point guards and if possible, trade Rose or Williams for a big or some picks. Marshall can be bait if needed.


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## Slasher

> Originally posted by <b>charlz</b>!
> unless we are in the lottery I think the cavs get our pick this year - as part of the Yogi for Lamond deal.
> 
> Can someone confirm this?


If we finish anywhere from 1-18 on the worst teams list (1 being the worst team in the association) of the NBA at the end of the season we keep the draft pick. If we finish anywhere from 19-29 then Cleveland gets our pick. 

With that said, we can make the playoffs at the 7th or 8th place and still keep our pick as long as we are one of the 18 worst teams.


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## speedythief

Glen has reportedly confirmed that our pick is top-18 protected, meaning we can make the playoffs and still retain a mid-first round pick. Lots of good players should be around. And having Cleveland's second round pick will help, too.

I'm not sure who this team needs to draft. I've said before that getting a PG or C with this pick won't solve any immediate problems, considering how difficult those two positions are for young players.

I hope we pick the best player available no matter what the position. We need anything we can get.


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## TRON

*2nd round prospects.......*

The Raptors should be able to get some good talent with their first round pick, with their 2nd rounder they should go after some size to add depth to their paper thin frontcourt

I noticed these interesting players that I think the raptors could choose with their 2nd pick (45?)

projected 51. Chris Garnett 6-11 275 C
Indiana Southeast Sr.
20.5pg 10.9reb 62.2% FG

projected 56. Pape Sow 6-10 250 PF
Cal State Fullerton Sr.
from: Dakar, Senegal
16.6pg 9.9reb 48.9%FG

While neither player plays for powerhouse schools or divisions, they seem to have the tools to be productive big men on our team. I have seen neither of them play, so if anyone has any info. on them or any other 2nd round prospect please post it

I really like what was written about Pape Sow, he is described as a relentless worker with a big frame that likes to dunk everythink he gets. Mad work ethic and rebounding, just what we need. 

Chris Garnett at 6-11 275 has posted great numbers, so there has to be a reason why he is such a low pick (51) in the 2nd round, however at that size and with those numbers, the Raptors would benefit if he could even put up half his senior stats 

I hope we can finally be the team that gets that much needed draft steal. or even some good NBA value out of our 2nd rounder


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## Goku

some other things I read about Pape Sow

huge wingspan (nice. A couple websites emphasize how seriously long he is)
quick leaper
tenacious on both ends

he is also completely 'raw'. Which might make him a good guy to gamble on. lol, I've never seen him either. Sucks not getting games up here.


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## Slasher

Its hard to predict second round picks, especailly this early. Remember last year how people were saying that Carl English would go anywhere from 20-29 and ended up not being picked? Teams are unpredictable when it comes to drafting.


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## Starbury03

Sow is stupid though he keeps getting caught for stealing. He stole hats from the school store. He also seems inconsitent he has big games hten the next he wont do much. Another pretty good big man in the Big West is Adam Parada of UCI he has alot of skill for a guy that big he could play in the league compared to soom of the centers in the league.


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## Sánchez AF

*.*

We have early second round pick (cavs pick)


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## SkywalkerAC

i'd lean towards a perimeter player in the second round, although a good banger might be in there somewhere. i'd like to grab luke jackson to replace mo pete.


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## trick

i'd like to pick up a PG or C who is a furnished, NCAA pro who stayed for all 4 years that can contribute to the team right away.


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## macro6

I hope GG picks a Roman Van de Hare type player :grinning:


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## bigbabyjesus

*NBADRAFT.NET | DRAFT BUZZ*



> On Thursday, 7-3 Lithuanian bigman Martynas Andriuskevicius had a tremendous team workout in Rimini, Italy in front 5-8 NBA scouts who came away shocked by the big man's agility and potential.............While some erroneously projected Kosta Perovic as a top 5 pick this year, his lack of quickness (especially reaction speed) will knock him into the late lottery at best and some feel with the hand injury, he will fall to the late part of the first round if he were to enter the draft this year..........





> Point Guard Rankings
> 
> *1.* _Shaun Livingston 6-7 175 PG Peoria, IL HSSr._ -- A "rail thin" high school player who had a disappointing outing last weekend against AAU teammate Justin Cerasoli with a number of NBA scouts on hand.......
> 
> *2.* _Ben Gordon 6-2 185 PG UConn Jr._ -- Detractors will say that he's more of a shooting guard, etc. But Gordon has the PG skills to at least play the position and be decent, and his scoring skills make him very dangerous.....
> 
> *3.* _Jameer Nelson 6-0 193 PG St. Joseph's Sr._ -- Tim Hardaway clone who has taken his game to another level. Measured a legit six-feet in Chicago last summer, 5-11 without shoes on. The concensus among scouts and insiders NBADraft.net speaks with is that Nelson has a chance of landing in the top 10 picks, and has jumped in front of Ben Gordon as the top PG prospect in college.........
> 
> *4.* _Devin Harris 6-3 185 PG Wisconsin Jr._ -- Scouts finally seem to be coming around on Harris as we've been a big proponent of his abilities since he was a freshman, projecting him as a first rounder for over a year........
> 
> *5.* _Sebastian Telfair 6-0 170 PG Brooklyn, NY HSSr._ -- Telfair is obviously overrated by NBA scouts right now. He's neither as seasoned nor the sure bet as the three college points in front of him......


READ MORE -- 

*NBADRAFT.NET | DRAFT BUZZ *


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## onecooljew

Theres no chance that we will get Andriuskevicius, this kid seems like the real deal from the sound of it. I was looking him up the other day and checkin out his Euroleague profile..looks like hes gonna be good. Mabye not right away..but in due time.

Now about our 2nd roudner...

The two guys i would love to see quit up for the Raps next year are Varejao and Khryapa...Varejao has added some weight and is up to 230 now after he dropped out of last years draft. Hes playing fairly well with FC Barcelona this year considering theres guys like Navarro and Bodiroga on the team. Hes putting up 7ppg, 5rebs and hes shooting 52% from the field in only 20mins a game.

Kyryapa in my mind is the sleeper of the draft. The kid has grownth 3 inches since he was 18 (hes 20 now). Hes done an excellent job with CSKA Moscow this year in his 2nd year with the team. In about 20mins a game in Euroleague play he has 5.7ppg, 2.5 rebs..but the most shocking stat..he has shot 72% from the field! In Superleague play this year he has 6.8ppg, 3.3rebs, 2 asts, 1.2 blks and still maintained a 60FG%. Oh..and did i mention he can shoot the trey as well? In Superleague play hes 16-30 from behind the arc!

Varejao could be our PF of the future. Hes not any smaller than Bosh, im not saying hes as good as Bosh, but if Varejao keeps getting bigger and better..he could fit in nicely in the raps frountcourt. 

I see Khryapa playing as a backup for the 1st few years in the league, but with his smooth stroke he wont be on the bench for long. With the Raps i can see a future lineup of Telfair/Gordon-VC-Kyryapa- Brandon Bass -Bosh

That would be a nice run and gun team with VC still in town to run the show. For all of you that dont know..Bass is the 6'8-250 Freshman PF playin for Louisiana this year. Hes a bit undersized but the kid has some serious skill and hes good in the low post..something we would need with Bosh playin C because Bosh tends to not bang as much as the typical C


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## bigbabyjesus

> 2004 (Over 22) International Prospects
> 
> *1.* _Andres Nocioni 6-7 SF (Tau Vitoria) 1979 -- Free Agent_
> 
> Stats in Spain: _16.0pts 8.0rbs_
> Stats in Euroleague: _13.9pts 6.6rbs_
> 
> _Argentinean who once dunked on Kevin Garnett when he was 17 has developed into the top over 22 prospect in Europe. He can do a little bit of everything. He's had some injury problems, but when he's 100 percent psychically, he can do unbelievable things, like a 36pts 15rebs effort at Treviso. He is the best rebounder among forwards in Europe. Having been watched by NBA scouts for the last few years, he wants to be more than a bench player if he's going to join an NBA team. He's hitting his prime, and may be outgrowing European basketball. Look for teams to make offers to bring him to the NBA next season._
> 
> 
> *3.* _Arvydas Macijauskas 6-4 SG (Tau Vitoria) 1980 -- Free Agent_
> Stats in Spain: _20.1pts 3.2rbs_
> Stats in Euroleague: _21.5pts 2.4rbs_
> 
> _Broke every type of scoring record in ACB, in his first year outside of his country (Lithuania). This guy is the best pure shooter in Europe, and one of the best in the world. He's a machine called "Kalashikov", the Russian rifle. He is a little undersized and weak physically for the NBA and his defense is suspect, but he has high energy and he can shoot from anywhere and doesn't miss if he's left open. He can fill a role on an NBA team similar to Steve Kerrr, only this guy is an even better shooter!_


*READ FULL ARTICLE...*
*NBADRAFT.NET | 2004 (OVER 22) INTERNATIONAL PROSPECTS* 

These are two of the top over 22 European prospects, that currently aren't signed with an NBA team. 

I've seen both play, and both would be good and add depth for to our team. 

Andres Nocioni is a very atheltic player. He's a very mature player, and will help out right away, instead of waiting for him to develop. He's a very good rebounder, and a terrific slasher and cutter because of his athleticism. He's also improved his jumper a lot, which makes him more dangerous. He loves to run on the break, and has got great size. A good defensive player, but could be even better with the physical tools he has.

Arvydas Macijauskas is just a lights out shooter, he will *kill* you with his shot. Will probably be one of the best shooters in the league once he gets here. Spot up shooter, or rolling off screens, doesn't matter. He's short the the SG spot at 6'4, but makes up for that height because he plays hard and with so much effort. He is a good slasher and cutter, but prefers to shoot. His knack is defense, but from what I've seen, he's a solid defensive player.


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## Mr_B

this year a weak draft year use the pick as trade bait and pakage it along with another player AKA murray and trade it for a center


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## macro6

If we're picking between 14-18 I say try to get a PG, but if theres no PG available, I say pick the best player available.

Hakim Warrick is very intriguing, I think he can excell in the Pro level.

Ben Gordan would be great for us, Plays similar to Baron Davis(From DraftCity.com) or Jason Terry?


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## bigbabyjesus

if we make the playoffs, we'll still get a decent 14-16 pick range, but if we don't we get a much higher pick from around 8-10.

i'd much rather make the playoffs, but IMO would be good for this franchise to get a higher draft pick right now, with our lack of depth and youth.

we should go for a point guard with our first rounder, but one of these european big men could be tempting. 

7 lottery players that could realistically be available with the 8th pick (our current draft position) that i'd want _not in order_--

shaun livingston PG/SG
*DRAFT CITY PROFILE* | *NBADRAFT.NET PROFILE* 

luol deng SG/SF
*DRAFT CITY PROFILE* | *NBADRAFT.NET PROFILE* 

andre iguodala SG/SF (point forward)
*DRAFT CITY PROFILE* | *NBADRAFT.NET PROFILE*

pavel podkolzine C
*DRAFT CITY PROFILE* | *NBADRAFT.NET PROFILE*

ben gordon PG/SG
*DRAFT CITY PROFILE* | *NBADRAFT.NET PROFILE*

jameer nelson PG
*DRAFT CITY PROFILE* | *NBADRAFT.NET PROFILE*

andris biedrins PF/C
*DRAFT CITY PROFILE* | *NBADRAFT.NET PROFILE*

i didn't include guys i think would pull out of the draft.


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## macro6

Some players I like, and could be available witht he 8th over pick.

In order:

1. Ben Gordon 6-2 185 PG UConn Jr.

2. Emeka Okafor 6-9 252 PF UConn Jr. - who knows, with all the bad luck u hav, we're bound to hav good karma and win the lottery :grinning: (Bosh and Emeka would make a fearsome tendom) 

3. Andris Biedrins 6-11 240 PF/C (Latvia) 1986

4. Martynas Andriuskevicius 7-3 220 C (Lithuania) 1986

5. Sebastian Telfair 6-0 170 PG Brooklyn, NY HSSr.

6. Devin Harris 6-3 185 PG Wisconsin Jr.

7. Luol Deng 6-8 220 SF Duke Fr.

8. Jameer Nelson 6-0 193 PG St. Joseph's Sr.




DraftCity | NBADRAFT.NET for Player Profiles


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## SkywalkerAC

i want gordon or Pavel...or any of these guys really.

Pavel's coming off one of his first dominating performances with 30 points and 20 rebounds in some tournament. he's a big risk but he's REALLY big- montrous potential. 

gordon can play point and he can score- i want a creator that can also slash to the bucket and get easy buckets. i think he'd have a chance at ROY playing with VC and JR. 

if only we had 2 first rounders to add some serious depth. i don't think this will be that weak of a draft overall, a little young though.


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## Sánchez AF

Loul dENG IS THE REAL DEAL


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## Sánchez AF

BUT WE NEED A BIG MAN SO PICK PAVEL


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## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> BUT WE NEED A BIG MAN SO PICK PAVEL


Pavel is a huge gamble/project, are we willing to wait 3+ years for him to develope?

Plus, he could be another Alek Redojevic Bust (remember him?)


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## Sánchez AF

> Pavel is a huge gamble/project, are we willing to wait 3+ years for him to develope?
> 
> Plus, he could be another Alek Redojevic Bust (remember him?)
> ?


I KNOW BUT MAYBE IS OUR BEST PICK SPECIALLY SINCE 
OUR CHOICE WILL BE 8-14 ANOTHER OPTION IS RAFAEL ARAUJO


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## Sánchez AF

I don't know you guys but I think we should pick the most talented player available and not necessary a PG. or C...

A player who can help us since the first year...


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## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by *macro6*!
> Pavel is a huge gamble/project, are we willing to wait 3+ years for him to develope?
> 
> Plus, he could be another Alek Redojevic Bust (remember him?)


Picking Pavel up could be a _huge_ risk, but I wanted to pick this guy up over Chris Bosh last year.

Kosta Perovic is the better player, just a little smaller. He broke his hand or something, so I think he's not going to declare for this years draft and wait till it heals and play another season in Europe. Good decision.



> Originally posted by *Carter 182*!
> Loul dENG IS THE REAL DEAL


Deng's a very good player, but he's just not ready for the pro's yet.

He should stay another year at Duke and further develop his skills. But he'll probably declare this year because he's a surefire lottery pick. I don't see him getting past the Bulls pick if they don't have top 2 pick.



> I KNOW BUT MAYBE IS OUR BEST PICK SPECIALLY SINCE
> OUR CHOICE WILL BE 8-14 ANOTHER OPTION IS RAFAEL ARAUJO


I don't really like Arajuo. 

He's a great offensive centre, but, he doesn't have that much upside. He's already 23-24, we need to go for someone younger, but that can contribute right away. Arajuo is also a terrible post defender, and not a good rebounder. That's what our team really lacks right now. And our pick will be way to high to pick him.


Also, this new kid just came out of no where really, kind of like Darko last year.

*Martynas Andriuskevicius*
















I think we should definetly take the risk on this stud if our pick comes up and he's still around. He's only 18 but has tremendous skill, and has great basketball IQ. He's also a monster at 7'2 but needs to bulk up. I see his stock skyrocketing, but he will take a while to develop, thats the thing.

NBADRAFT.NET PROFILE 

Article from the Italian Under 20 Tourney  



> *Martyans Andriuskevicius 7-2 C Crabs Rimini 1986*
> 
> He was the star of the show after his impressive practice in the front of NBA scouts Thursday. He struggled the first day against a well organized team, Siena. But he played great the second game (20p 18r) where he flashed some of his skills. He has wonderful co-ordination for his size and is very smart for his age. At one point, he went coast-to-coast and dribbled like a wing. He lacks the strength to protect the ball in traffic but he is not soft, he had many buckets after contact and played aggressive. He showed good mentality, playing within the system without being selfish. He was on loan to Rimini where his agent is also the owner of the team and it's looking likely he'll be in the draft next June. When NBA GM's see these tapes they will fall in love with the European mystery man.


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## ElevatorMan

ok... Ben Gordon, and Jameer nelsonare deffinatly gonna be taken by the time the raptors are on the board... Telfair may be availible.. i am not sure if he is right for the team... Felton will most likely be gone as well. i am not even sure that felton will still be availible... Kris Humphries would be my pick..the guy is a fresh man and is dominating college games. on the boars.. Mccants is also a good pick.. he can create for himslef and teamates.. My choices are humphries, Felton (if availible), mccants.. If we do get the cahance to pick up gordon or nelson...GG better draft them or i will kick him square in the balls:yes:


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## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by <b>ElevatorMan</b>!
> ok... Ben Gordon, and Jameer nelsonare deffinatly gonna be taken by the time the raptors are on the board... Telfair may be availible.. i am not sure if he is right for the team... Felton will most likely be gone as well. i am not even sure that felton will still be availible... Kris Humphries would be my pick..the guy is a fresh man and is dominating college games. on the boars.. Mccants is also a good pick.. he can create for himslef and teamates.. My choices are humphries, Felton (if availible), mccants.. If we do get the cahance to pick up gordon or nelson...GG better draft them or i will kick him square in the balls:yes:


I think Felton will definetly be available. Especially if we don't make the playoffs, we'll probably be too high to pick him, so we'll have to go for Jameer Nelson, Ben Gordon, or even Telfair. I'd take Nelson because he's a true point guard, and that's what we need. Gordon is more of a combo guard, Steve Francis-Baron Davis type player. 

Felton should stay at college for another year. Teams might shy away from picking him, because his shot is nowhere to be found right now, and he really needs to improve his game. He is a true point guard and does average 8 assists per game, but the raptors really need a point guard that can shoot. I still like Felton and if all those other point guards are gone we should take him, he just needs to improve his shot, kind of like TJ Ford.


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## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>ElevatorMan</b>!
> ok... Ben Gordon, and Jameer nelsonare deffinatly gonna be taken by the time the raptors are on the board... Telfair may be availible.. i am not sure if he is right for the team... Felton will most likely be gone as well. i am not even sure that felton will still be availible... Kris Humphries would be my pick..the guy is a fresh man and is dominating college games. on the boars.. Mccants is also a good pick.. he can create for himslef and teamates.. My choices are humphries, Felton (if availible), mccants.. If we do get the cahance to pick up gordon or nelson...GG better draft them or i will kick him square in the balls:yes:


Not Krist Humphries, hes a undersized PF playing the same position as BOSH.

I hope we get Ben Gordan :yes:

Raptor scouts better work the butts off....


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## onecooljew

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> 
> 
> I KNOW BUT MAYBE IS OUR BEST PICK SPECIALLY SINCE
> OUR CHOICE WILL BE 8-14 ANOTHER OPTION IS RAFAEL ARAUJO


We dont need Araujo . A C/PF is not a priority right now. We need backcourt help. Same thing goes for Pavel. No need, even though we have no chance of him falling to us


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## bigbabyjesus

If we don't pick up a point guard in the first round and decide to go for a big man, there's a lot of guys that we can pick up in the second round who could be huge steals. not in any order.

NOTE: Click players name for draftcity profile

Marcelo Huertas 6-3 185lb PG Brazil -- _From what I've read, he seems very intriguing. He's supposedly already better than Luke Ridnour is now, and is being trained by Michael Jordans trainer, much like Leandrinho Barbosa. Draftcity says he has tremendous court vision, ball handling skills and shooting ability. Pretty confident this guy could be a huge steal._

*Salim Stoudamire* 6-1 176lb PG/SG Arizona Jr. -- _Our former rookie of the year Damon Stoudamire's cousin. He actually plays a lot like Damon, with a very dangerous three point shot and his stroke looks exactly like Damons. A good passer, but not as good as Damon, he plays much more like a shooting guard than a point guard. I'd say a little mix of Damon/Chauncey. He might stay in college for an extra year, though._

*Antonio Burks* 6-0 200lb PG Memphis Sr. -- _He is the main reason for Memphis' success this year. He's a great leader, and would fit in with the raps. He's unbelievably quick, and very strong. Good scorer, extremely good at slashing and cutting to the lane. Very good shooter and defender too. Anywhere past the early/middle part of the second round IMO this guy is the biggest steal in the draft._

*Chris Duhon* 6-1 190lb PG Duke Sr. -- _Just a very sound, intelligent point that i'm sure a lot of gm's would love to have on their team. Great three point shooter, and defender. He has great point guard ability's and can slash and cut very well. Very quick, and has great work ethic. _

I don't think any of these players will go into the first round, but for second rounders, these guys would definetly be great picks. Also Blake Stepp from Gonzaga would be a good pickup.


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## Sánchez AF

the hardest position to pick in the Draft is Center... so let's pick a Center in the first round and in the second round Chris Duhon..

our second round pick goes to Chicago Right????'


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## rlucas4257

Up off the top of my head, if Martynas is there, you have to take him. based on what I hear,he is a steal. if not, I might consider a HS kid or any of the bigs that fall through the cracks. I doubt Perovic will play NBA ball next year. But if he is there, he is worth the year. The HS kid that I think is really climbing is Marvin Williams. Now, your club doesnt need a 3 that badly, but move VC into the backcourt with Rose at the point and now you go with a midsize lineup that is very skilled with Donyell and Bosh filling out the roster. I dont know your round 2 situation, i think we own your pick, is Marcelo Huertas. he is Barbosa like. SOme say better. and Barbosa has been a player over the last 40 games or so. Toronto is a great place. been there several times myself. But I think going foreign is smart for you guys. Americans seem to cringe at the thought of playing there (currency/taxes/weather) but someone like Martynas would love it there. Ill be around to chat some more


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## rlucas4257

can the mods sticky this so all fans, even non raptor fans, can reference it? We have done it on the Bulls board


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## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> can the mods sticky this so all fans, even non raptor fans, can reference it? We have done it on the Bulls board


it was stickied, and that was the problem, no one even noticed it, as most people ignore stickies.

so i decided to unsticky it and its gotten more attention. it will always be bumped up though because i make a post in it every day.

BTW -- As for our second round pick, Chicago gets ours, but we own Clevelands part in the Lamond Murray trade.


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## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Up off the top of my head, if Martynas is there, you have to take him. based on what I hear,he is a steal. if not, I might consider a HS kid or any of the bigs that fall through the cracks. I doubt Perovic will play NBA ball next year. But if he is there, he is worth the year. The HS kid that I think is really climbing is Marvin Williams. Now, your club doesnt need a 3 that badly, but move VC into the backcourt with Rose at the point and now you go with a midsize lineup that is very skilled with Donyell and Bosh filling out the roster. I dont know your round 2 situation, i think we own your pick, is Marcelo Huertas. he is Barbosa like. SOme say better. and Barbosa has been a player over the last 40 games or so. Toronto is a great place. been there several times myself. But I think going foreign is smart for you guys. Americans seem to cringe at the thought of playing there (currency/taxes/weather) but someone like Martynas would love it there. Ill be around to chat some more


(currency/taxes/weather) is a misconception. The weather here in Toronto is NO DIFFERENT from cities like Chicago, New York or any other northern states. Players arent affected by the taxes as long as they dont live here for a full year (i think? Glen said something bout this, but im not sure.)


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## speedythief

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> (currency/taxes/weather) is a misconception. The weather here in Toronto is NO DIFFERENT from cities like Chicago, New York or any other northern states. Players arent affected by the taxes as long as they dont live here for a full year (i think? Glen said something bout this, but im not sure.)


Misconception or not, history has shown that players are affected by this notion. Steve Francis wouldn't go to Van-City, Antonio Davis wanted the hell out of Toronto, etc.. They might be wrong about Toronto and Canada in general, but it's not something they are going to realize on their own.


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## Sánchez AF

> Misconception or not, history has shown that players are affected by this notion. Steve Francis wouldn't go to Van-City, Antonio Davis wanted the hell out of Toronto, etc.. They might be wrong about Toronto and Canada in general, but it's not something they are going to realize on their own.


they are stupids...(Davis. Francis,Olajuwon etc..)

*TORONTO IT'S A GREAT CITY MAYBE THE BEST *  :yes:


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## rlucas4257

it is stupid. It really is. Toronto is a wonderful place with a lot to do. Its a far more interesting place then Milwaukee or Sacramento, but I still feel players would rather play there. 

Now having said that, the only other place that suffers from the saem thing is Salt Lake. They feel that they cant get black players to stay there. Its not racist, its just reality. They just wont interest african americans to stay there for long periods of time (and I dont want to hear about Karl Malone, he was more white then most white people). They are probably right. They have made a conscientious effort to draft international players every chance they get. and they have seemed to do well. I happen to think this is something Toronto should do. if all else is equal, go with the international guy. And there is going to be a ton of international kids in this crop who will be around when you pick. If Martynas Andriwhatever is available, take him.


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## rlucas4257

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> 
> 
> they are stupids...(Davis. Francis,Olajuwon etc..)
> 
> *TORONTO IT'S A GREAT CITY MAYBE THE BEST *  :yes:


Olajuwon wanted to go there, not wanted to get out.


----------



## macro6

Maybe we should tell basketball players that we have Ketchup Chips, POP (notice i didnt say SODA) and Milk in 1 litre bags !!!111


----------



## Sánchez AF

> Toronto should do. if all else is equal, go with the international guy. And there is going to be a ton of international kids in this crop who will be around when you pick. If Martynas Andriwhatever is available, take him.


GREAT IDEA I THINK THE RAPTORS DREAM LINE-UP.

pg-Nash(canadian)
sg-Carter(he's almost canadian)
sf-R.Fox.(canadian)
pf-Bosh...the future
c-Magloire(canadian)

Bench:
Carl English
Alvin (he lives and die for the Raptors)

and some other prospects


----------



## Sánchez AF

Omar Quintero..

he's available for the 2004 draft maybe select him via F.A. or in late second round

HE'S THE BEST MEXICAN P.G. he play with a lot of heart (like Najera) and fast 

Full Name: Omar Quintero
Position: Guard
Height/Weight: 6-0 / 170
Birthdate: September 26, 1981 (Sonora)


----------



## Sánchez AF

More info and Interview with Omar Quintero 


Face to Face with Omar Quintero #11 Mexico Nacional Team



> With barely 21 years of age Omar Quintero already has two years in the bag as the starting point guard for the Mexican national team. This cat-quick 5-11 playmaker played for St. Nazarene College in NAIA this past season and will play as a transfer this year with Fresno State University in NCAA Division I basketball.











playing v.s. Carlos Arroyo.



> In 2001, Quintero impressed with his performance at the Centrobasket in Toluca, leading his team to the gold medal game with an unbeaten record before losing to eventual champion Puerto Rico in the final, but still settled for a hard-earned silver.


Read the full article and the Interview


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> More info and Interview with Omar Quintero
> 
> Face to Face with Omar Quintero #11 Mexico Nacional Team
> 
> Read the full article and the Interview


Doubt this guy ever makes the league.

If he's any good, he should go play in the Euroleague or something to get noticed at least. 

And there's a hell of a lot more better prospects out there, i understand he's from your country, but he's probably just not good enough to make the league.


And about Martynas, he looks _very_ promising. But didn't he say himself somewhere he wasn't declaring? He shouldn't either, he's still only 18, and he's very raw. But I know his stock is going to soar before the draft so he might change his mind. As much as I'd love the raps to pick him, it will take him a while to contribute, and we need help now. 

Every time I watch Hakim Warrick he makes me love him more. If the raps get a pick around 14-16 and he's available, and theirs no real intriguing point guards or big men still around, i say go for it. SF/PF isn't our biggest need, but we could use help anywhere really. We could move Carter to the 2 and Rose at the 1 or vice versa. But i'm just saying this because Warrick is one of my favourite college players. We probably won't end up in that situation anyways.


----------



## Sánchez AF

in a couple of years we will be better than Palacio....


----------



## FanOfAll8472

Personally, I would LOVE Felton, Harris (Devin) or Nelson. I think we're going to make the playoffs in the weak East but still be able to keep our draft pick...so I don't think it's high enough for Nelson, but if Felton comes out, it'll probably be high enough for him. Felton has such great court instincts and awareness...such a pure point guard...I love this kid. I think Harris will be gone as well, but maybe he'll slip. But, if Pavel for some reason drops or if Martynas Andriuskevicius falls, I think we'll have to go with one of them, since we need a big center and there's a dearth of centers. Hopefully we can get Chris Duhon in the 2nd round...I love this kid too...such a great competitor, defender, good distributor, VERY clutch player. But he might go very, very high 2nd round...and we'll miss out on him. No problem, I wouldn't mind Antonio Burks from Memphis...I think he would help us out a lot at point.

Oh yeah...if we get Felton or Harris in the 1st, I wouldn't mind Jaime Lloreda, Arthur Johnson (check out their profiles on Nbadraft.net and draftcity.com...). Lloreda has a decent post and all around offensive game but is a real hustler. Johnson is a real banger in the post...good post scorer, good shot blocker, good defender. Lloreda is the better rebounder, versatile scorer, and has more potential to improve than Johnson, but Johnson is the better post scorer, shot blocker, and stronger. They're both 6'9" but I think what matters more is strength and bulk when it comes to playing center...not height.


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> Every time I watch Hakim Warrick he makes me love him more. If the raps get a pick around 14-16 and he's available, and theirs no real intriguing point guards or big men still around, i say go for it. SF/PF isn't our biggest need, but we could use help anywhere really. We could move Carter to the 2 and Rose at the 1 or vice versa. But i'm just saying this because Warrick is one of my favourite college players. We probably won't end up in that situation anyways.


If we're picking between 14-18, I say Hakim Warrick too if theres no intriguing PGs left. We all know we have lots of swingmans, but you cant have enough deph  I believe Hakim's game is meant for NBA, and he'll flourish, he just needs to work on his handles.


----------



## CrookedJ

Did you see Warrick yesterday when they beat UCONN - he was really on - I didn't realize he was so good in the post.. IF he's available he'd be a great player to add - we could play him or Yell at SF and play a big athletic lineup - Carter would be the shortest starter.

I would prefer a true point guard - look at the differnece Strickland has made in a few games - he's got like 4-5 assist per game - which equals 10 points or so that players don't have to work as hard for.

So Felton is like TJ Ford, and needs to work on his shot, I say we take him anyway we need a creator.


----------



## mo76

*Should raps draft PG or center?*

What position should the raptors draft?? Center or PG? Or someone else. nbadraft.net has us drafting Kris Humpheries, a 6'8 PF. I onlly say him play before in the highschool allstar game in 03 (with lebron). Why do we need another PF?


----------



## reHEATed

nbadraft.net does not take team needs into consideration as of now. They have a preranked list of prospects that changes every update, and that list goes in order to where the teams would be if the season ended today


----------



## trick

i would go with PG, with Rod backing him up next season.


----------



## Slasher

It depends who is left when we draft. I would draft a centre *if and only if* he is a bulky player and a *real centre* not a "Chris Bosh" type player, where he is skinny as a toothpick. 

If a *real centre* is not available I would go for a point guard. In the past couple of years we have drafted big players, with the exception of Chris Jeffries and Morris Peterson, and I think this year could be the one to snatch a point guard, unless a bulky player at the centre position is unavailable.


----------



## R-Star

I'd try to swing a trade that would land you guys Pavel. I think hes going to be a monster. Kind of the east coast Shaq.


----------



## Slasher

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> I'd try to swing a trade that would land you guys Pavel. I think hes going to be a monster. Kind of the east coast Shaq.


There have been too many players being compared to Shaq, its ridiculous.


----------



## trick

very eery on Pavel. i wouldn't draft him if i had a top 10 pick and he'd still be available.


----------



## Slasher

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> very eery on Pavel. i wouldn't draft him if i had a top 10 pick and he'd still be available.


:mrt:


----------



## speedythief

Toronto should draft the best player available, no matter the position.

I've said this before, but it bares repeating: point guard and centre are the two most difficult positions in basketball and it generally takes a few years for rookies to develop at those positions.

Our team needs depth more than we need a project right now. We should go after anybody who is available with our pick, whether it be Warrick or Harris or Childress or whoever. We need help in every department, not just the 1 and 5, so the best player is the best pick.

We can try to find a decent back-up centre or point guard in free agency.

Unless something great happens, for next season Chris Bosh is our centre and Jalen Rose is our point guard.


----------



## trick

> Originally posted by <b>Slasher</b>!
> 
> 
> :mrt:


well, out of all the knocks i have heard against him that struck me the most is that he's soft, despite that he's a 7'3 300 lbs machine.


----------



## reHEATed

the draft is stronger for point guards than center, and where u are pickin is about where the good ones will go, being felton, nelson, gordon, telfair and devin harris. I only see 2 center pospects, one bein pavel and one being Martynas Andriuskevicius, both being european ? marks, and the the 2nd one i have never heard of until a couple months ago. PG would prbably be best with this draft class, unless Martynas drops to u guys, and looks impressive in workouts


----------



## MadFishX

the raptors should pick the best possible choice they have with their pick, no matter what position he plays.


----------



## Ballyhoo

Did Felton withdraw or something? He's not listed on nbadraft.net's or draftcity.com's mock drafts anymore. In fact he's now listed in the 2005 mock on draftcity.


----------



## Sánchez AF

> Toronto should draft the best player available, no matter the position.


:yes:


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> Toronto should draft the best player available, no matter the position.


----------



## Sánchez AF

also we need a Center

if we want Bosh develop into a superstar we need take pressure of him. He need play in his natural position...


----------



## FanOfAll8472

Depends on whose there...but we should take BPA.


----------



## FanOfAll8472

> Originally posted by <b>Ballyhoo</b>!
> Did Felton withdraw or something? He's not listed on nbadraft.net's or draftcity.com's mock drafts anymore. In fact he's now listed in the 2005 mock on draftcity.


I think rumor goes now that he should stay in school, prompting most people to push him back a year. Not too sure though.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

not many top center prospects make it past the top 10 picks so we might not have much of a shot there. i really doubt that any of the centers coming out are as good as bosh has been this year. having bosh and his ability to play the 5 does give us the luxury of picking a power forward, where we are much more likely to find a prospect that can contribute. Biedrins is a PF/C that we'd have a shot at if we don't make playoffs. 

i'd take pavel if we got that high of a pick. as long as he stays healthy he should improve greatly, becoming a force. if he can develop his defensive potential and learn to play the game, we would have one of the best frontcourts in the nba. 

a great point guard would be nice but only if there's a great one on the board. a special point guard could take this team to the next level but the special ones are hard to come by. ben gordon looks like he could be that kind of player, able to make the pass or the basket.


----------



## Sánchez AF

> not many top center prospects make it past the top 10 picks so we might not have much of a shot there. i really doubt that any of the centers coming out are as good as bosh has been this year. having bosh and his ability to play the 5 does give us the luxury of picking a power forward, where we are much more likely to find a prospect that can contribute. Biedrins is a PF/C that we'd have a shot at if we don't make playoffs.


Bosh a Center next Year i hope Not...


----------



## speedythief

merged. speedy.


----------



## Sánchez AF

MAYBE WE DON'T HAVE OUR 1 ROUND PICK REMEMBER??

SO HERE AN IDEA.

Portland Trade:
Damon Stoudemire
Theo Ratliff

TO trade:

Jalen Rose
Alvin Williams
Lamond 

pg-Damon/Chris Duhon(2 round pick)
sg-Vince/Mason
sf-Donyell/Mo.P.
pf-Bosh/Moiso
c-Theo/Jerome James

this line-up look very strong for me...


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> MAYBE WE DON'T HAVE OUR 1 ROUND PICK REMEMBER??
> 
> SO HERE AN IDEA.
> Portland Trade:
> Damon Stoudemire
> Theo Ratliff
> 
> TO trade:
> Jalen Rose
> Alvin Williams
> Lamond


I'd much much rather have Rose over Damon, even as bad as our point guard needs are right now. And we could pick up his cousin in the 2nd round if he comes out, very similar players, but Salim doesn't have the contract and is younger.

And we have our first rounder, as long as it's top 18, and we won't be good enough to lose it to cleveland.


I think if Pavel's available with a 12- whereever range pick, we have to take him. If the picks around 8-10 I don't think I take him, we should go after the best point guard available, where jameer, gordon, telfair will still be there. Or if we get lucky Luol Deng, Andre Igoudala could fall to us.


----------



## Sánchez AF

the thread should be sticky


----------



## rlucas4257

i have seen Pavel live. Defensively he will be an impact player on day one. Think Mark Eaton. On offense, he is still a bit mechanical. But he does have a nice touch and can pass the ball pretty well from the high post. He is a 3 or 4 year project. He could very well be worth it


----------



## FanOfAll8472

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> MAYBE WE DON'T HAVE OUR 1 ROUND PICK REMEMBER??
> 
> SO HERE AN IDEA.
> 
> Portland Trade:
> Damon Stoudemire
> Theo Ratliff
> 
> TO trade:
> 
> Jalen Rose
> Alvin Williams
> Lamond
> 
> pg-Damon/Chris Duhon(2 round pick)
> sg-Vince/Mason
> sf-Donyell/Mo.P.
> pf-Bosh/Moiso
> c-Theo/Jerome James
> 
> this line-up look very strong for me...


The way he's playing, POR's not trading Ratliff. Esp when they don't get a center back.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

who has watched chiriaev? is he still playing HS or concentrating on training now? lots of potential there but probably too big a project for our team. 

this might be a make or break draft year for us, we can't afford to squander it. there seems to be great depth at both guard and big man position. it's a very young draft but seeing khryapa and varejao the last first round picks on nbadraft's mock leads me to believe that our second rounder could net us a nice prospect for once. 

there are actually plenty of big men coming out this year: pavel, howard, okafor, biedrins, andri, Ha, aldridge, swift, biedrins.

one point guard that i'd love to land is livingston, if we could get into the top ten. the highest ranked HS point guard, aside from lebron. adding one of these points or iguodala could make us one of the best backcourts in the east.


----------



## macro6

We someone that is ready now to contribute. Shaun Livingston is a long term project, I dont think hes ready to contribute right away. Carter is entering his PRIME and we need someone that can help us imediately. Shaun Livingston is a nice pick tho. Is Carter willing to wait?


----------



## SkywalkerAC

i haven't actually watched livingston but even coming out of highschool i'd wager that he's better than anything we've got at the moment. o'neill isn't afraid to play rookies as long as they can play defense and play under contol. sounds like the kid has star potential and that's exactly what we need to take our team to the next level.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

iguodala seems to be a triple double kind of guy and would really round out our team's athleticism. great defender and good on the boards with potential reminiscent of vince carter. should be able to contribute right away. if we miss playoffs we might have a great shot at him. 

if we do get to the post season i think we need to take a hard look at Ha seung-jin. we've been begging for a true center for years and he would give us a huge frontcourt if developed properly. he's working out with SFX and should come into camp with great mobility and strength. sounds like a hard worker so skills should come around with time. probably wouldn't play more than 15 mpg next year though.


----------



## Slasher

*Multiple players declared themselves for NBA Draft 2004*

HoopsHype is reporting that Erazem Lorbek (PF, Slovenia), Sasha Vujacic (PG, Slovenia), Luka Bogdanovic (SF, Serbia-Montengro), Roko Leni Ukic (PG, Croatia), Drago Pasalic (PF, Croatia), Marko Tomas (SG, Croatia) and Armands Skele (SG, Latvia) will all declare themselves eligible for the NBA Draft, HoopsHype.com has learned. Former Michigan State player Erazem Lorbek and Sasha Vujacic already declared last year, but later decided to pull their names out of the draft.


----------



## Slasher

Which players do you guys like?


----------



## RapsFan

All the Croatians sound good. But probably Ukic would be the best pick. We draft him and leave him in Europe a couple of years to season and have his body mature and get stronger. Also, he has a history of winning which is a good attitude to bring to the club. And he is a PG first, rather than former prospects of Welsch and Jaric.


----------



## FanOfAll8472

> Originally posted by <b>Slasher</b>!
> Which players do you guys like?


1st round - Nelson, Felton, Harris, Seung-jin, Martyars A..........
2nd round - Lloreda, Arthur Johnson, Duhon, PG from Memphis (forget name).


----------



## bigbabyjesus

*Re: Multiple players declared themselves for NBA Draft 2004*



> Originally posted by <b>Slasher</b>!
> HoopsHype is reporting that Erazem Lorbek (PF, Slovenia), Sasha Vujacic (PG, Slovenia), Luka Bogdanovic (SF, Serbia-Montengro), Roko Leni Ukic (PG, Croatia), Drago Pasalic (PF, Croatia), Marko Tomas (SG, Croatia) and Armands Skele (SG, Latvia) will all declare themselves eligible for the NBA Draft, HoopsHype.com has learned. Former Michigan State player Erazem Lorbek and Sasha Vujacic already declared last year, but later decided to pull their names out of the draft.


Out of those euro prospects, the best is Roko Leni Ukic.

From what I've heard he's just a tremendous player and could be a lotto pick. I wouldn't mind picking him, but I'd rather take a sure fire contributor like Igoulada, Gordon, Nelson.

I think those three guys would all be great fits for our team. Can all contribute right away, and all hard nosed tough defenders. All are capable of playing the point, and none of them would really have to play in full time with point forwards like Carter and Rose on the floor.

Also, if we don't get a lottery pick, there's tons of other players that we could pick that would fit in. Devin Harris, Sebastian Telfair, Luke Jackson all capable of playing the point also, and would be a good 14-16 range pick. 

I would pick Felton, but it looks as though it is in his best interest to stay in school. North Carolina looks pretty nasty next year assuming Felton and McCants don't come out, with Raymond Felton, Rashad McCants, Marvin Williams, Sean May, and another freshman coming in JameOson Curry.


----------



## Ballyhoo

Slightly OT, but I was just watching the Miami-Orlando game, and the Orlando announcers were discussing who the Magic should draft assuming they got #1. They agreed on Podkolzine! I know they aren't management, but I think it is an indication that Pod will go early as some team takes a gamble on him. 

Anyway I used to think this was a weak draft compared to 2003. Now I think it has similar depth, but is lacking the "can't miss" prospects like Lebron and Darko. Not a bad year to pick 14th or so.


----------



## Slasher

All the Croatian basketball players rock :fire:


----------



## Slasher

The thing I am afraid of is the Raptors scouting staff. The past couple of years they have drafted some bad players (except Chris Bosh, who was so obvious to draft at the 4th pick). Chris Jeffries, Michael Bradley, that tall player from Serbia, and a couple of others I can't think of right now.

The ownership should look over their scouts and hire new ones IMHO.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

Some high school prospect videos for some of you.

*Robert Swift*
http://www.bakersfield.net/allarea/

*Rajon Rondo* 
right click 'save as' and watch in windows media
http://www.zonabasket.com/hospitalet/videos/09_final_oak_rm_2p.wmv
http://www.zonabasket.com/hospitalet/videos/rajon_rondo.mpg

*Josh Smith* 
http://testing.iolani.honolulu.hi.us/iclassic/
http://homepage.mac.com/digitalhoops/Pages/Josh_Smith.html


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> Some high school prospect videos for some of you.
> 
> *Robert Swift*
> http://www.bakersfield.net/allarea/
> 
> *Rajon Rondo*
> right click 'save as' and watch in windows media
> http://www.zonabasket.com/hospitalet/videos/09_final_oak_rm_2p.wmv
> http://www.zonabasket.com/hospitalet/videos/rajon_rondo.mpg
> 
> *Josh Smith*
> http://testing.iolani.honolulu.hi.us/iclassic/
> http://homepage.mac.com/digitalhoops/Pages/Josh_Smith.html



Robert Swift doesnt look too bad. Shows some nice athleticism.

Josh Smith looked OK. Odd looking shot, nice athleticism.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>Ballyhoo</b>!
> Slightly OT, but I was just watching the Miami-Orlando game, and the Orlando announcers were discussing who the Magic should draft assuming they got #1. They agreed on Podkolzine! I know they aren't management, but I think it is an indication that Pod will go early as some team takes a gamble on him.
> 
> Anyway I used to think this was a weak draft compared to 2003. Now I think it has similar depth, but is lacking the "can't miss" prospects like Lebron and Darko. Not a bad year to pick 14th or so.


yeah, it seems that way. with all of the uncertainty, a lot of guys should be looking to enter the draft and good depth should result. a lot of foreigners are declaring and i don't want to miss out.

pavel could very well be #1 if he really impresses before the draft. he's had a year to work on himself and could be ready to make an impact next season. 

however, i think if bosh had stayed in school he could be going #1.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

with a loss tomorrow against cleveland we'll be well on our way to a top 10 draft pick.


----------



## bc_bjorkman

anybody know what happened to raymond felton..

he suddenly disapeared from the mock draft at nbadraft.net


----------



## macro6

with a loss to cavs, we drop to the 8th or 7th pick with a slight chance to winning the lottery. :yes:


----------



## mo76

> Originally posted by <b>bc_bjorkman</b>!
> anybody know what happened to raymond felton..
> 
> he suddenly disapeared from the mock draft at nbadraft.net


I was wondering the same thing. Dickie V still thinks he is good.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

has no one watched ivan chiriaev play?


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by <b>bc_bjorkman</b>!
> anybody know what happened to raymond felton..
> 
> he suddenly disapeared from the mock draft at nbadraft.net


he might come out, but i think a lot of scouts think he'll stay in school for another year after showing little improvement from his freshman season.

he should stay in school, his shot, while improved, will be severly exposed at the next level. he's just not ready, it would help both him and his draft stock to come out next year. north carolina could also make a strong run at the title next year, too.


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> has no one watched ivan chiriaev play?


From all the articles i read, hes VERY VERY RAW.

and the interviews makes him sound very cocky. He says he can play Point Guard and i think its just BS. Hes overhyped for sure.


----------



## TRON

now that we are out of the playoffs we are scheduled to get a nice mid-lottery pick, we can either take a player in the draft or use it in a trade to infuse some talent into our lineup, the better our pick gets the more I feel we should use it the pick with a player on our team as tradebait. No more developing, we need to win now


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>TRON</b>!
> now that we are out of the playoffs we are scheduled to get a nice mid-lottery pick, we can either take a player in the draft or use it in a trade to infuse some talent into our lineup, the better our pick gets the more I feel we should use it the pick with a player on our team as tradebait. No more developing, we need to win now


no we don't, this team needs a lot of development still. i'm also reluctant to draft a project player but sometimes that's the way to go. with a trade package we'll probably want to ship out murray and end up paying for it. right now i think this team needs a youth infusement more than anything- a great young player to develop alongside bosh. we have the veteran talent in the lineup and will bring more in through free agency. 

these top 10 draft picks are just too intriguing to just trade away. if the right trade is there, we go for it, but usually only the top 5 are prized in this regard (elton brand for tyson chandler for example). i guess trading down is an option but i like our chances of coming out with a stud.

players i think can substantially contribute next season (for the raps):
Emeka Okafor
Luol Deng
Iguodala
Ben Gordon 
Jameer Nelson


Then there's the high potential projects:
Dwight Howard (i think he'd see solid minutes in our rotation)
Pavel Podkolzine (could be used in limited minutes)
Josh Smith (already has his shot down, could be a starter or might not see any time)
Shaun Livingston (another twig but is better than our current point guards and apparently plays like a young Penny)
Andris Biedrins (if he puts on a few pounds before next season he'd get decent time as our third big man)
Martynas Andriuskevicius (really skinny but has the potential to be a great center)
Sebastian Telfair (might be ready to run an nba team right out of HS)
Kosta Perovic (another legit center)

give me a trade and i'll consider it but i want all of these guys on the raps. what i might like to do is get 2 draft picks (or one and another young player) in return for ours. packaging another player really complicates things because our players have cumbersome contracts that other teams don't want to take on.

do remember that our team will be changing substantially through free agency. we only have 6 players (VC, JR, AW, DM, CB, and Murray) on contract next year as far as i know so we have a lot of roster space to fill. strickland might stick around, i'd like to see moiso resigned for cheap, and curry might get the vet's min but we'll be seeing some new faces as well.


----------



## Sánchez AF

Let's trade Vince For Crawford and Bulls first round pick...

pg.-jalen
sg.-crawford
sf.-donyell
pf.-bosh
c.-okaford/pavel


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> Let's trade Vince For Crawford and Bulls first round pick...
> 
> pg.-jalen
> sg.-crawford
> sf.-donyell
> pf.-bosh
> c.-okaford/pavel


yeah, jalen and crawford together, that's a recipe for success.


----------



## macro6

PG - Ben Gordan
SG - Vince Carter
SF - Jalen Rose
PF - Bosh
C - Mark Blount/Dale Davis

PG - Alvin Williams
SG - Vince Carter
SF - Jalen Rose
PF - BOSH
C - Emeka Okafor

PG - Alvin Williams
SG - Vince Carter
SF - Jalen Rose/Andre Iguodala /or Luol Deng 
PF - BOSH
C - Dale Davis/Mark Blount

Bench: Eric Williams, Alvin Williams, Donyell.

I think we'll get a good quality player in the draft and some key free-agent pickups, we have the potential to be good.


----------



## madman

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> Let's trade Vince For Crawford and Bulls first round pick...
> 
> pg.-jalen
> sg.-crawford
> sf.-donyell
> pf.-bosh
> c.-okaford/pavel


:no: :no: :no: 




I dont follow college bball alot is Okafour a good solution if the balls bounce our way?


----------



## macro6

Okafor is gonna be a defensive beast in the NBA (a la Ben Wallace)

I dunno if he can play Centre, maybe in the EAST he could.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by <b>madman</b>!
> :no: :no: :no:
> 
> I dont follow college bball alot is Okafour a good solution if the balls bounce our way?


Yeah obviously you don't follow college basketball because out of everyone in this draft, Okafor is the guy this team would need the most.

IMO Okafor is going to be a hell of a lot better than Ben Wallace. He's a much better man-to-man defender, and his offense is much more advanced. Not to mention he averages 5 blocks per game. But what scares me about Okafor is his recent back problems. That could hurt his stock, hopefully it won't be a nagging injury.

Being realistic that we probably won't get a chance at Okafor, here's a couple scenarios of what our team could look like next year:

PG B.Gordon - A.Williams
SG V.Carter - D.Glover
SF J.Rose - D.Marshall
PF C.Bosh - D.Marshall
C D.Davis - R.Swift

PG J.Rose - A.Williams - M.Huertas
SG A.Igoudala - D.Glover - A.Williams
SF V.Carter - J.Rose
PF D.Marshall - C.Bosh
C M.Blount - C.Bosh


----------



## Goku

He makes defence just look so effortless. He is one of the only defencive players that I actually enjoy watching play. The guy is special. He barely breaks a sweat half the time, and just 'knows' what the player he is guarding is about to do. It is actually kind of freakish.

I don't know about him having an 'advanced' offence than even Ben. I don't see him doing much in the nba with the ball in his hands. He'll probably develop a nice midrange shot, but his moves still look really mechanical to me. I've only seen him play maybe 5 or 6 times though, so whatever.


----------



## Sánchez AF

> PG B.Gordon - A.Williams
> SG V.Carter - D.Glover
> SF J.Rose - D.Marshall
> PF C.Bosh - D.Marshall
> C D.Davis - R.Swift
> 
> PG J.Rose - A.Williams - M.Huertas
> SG A.Igoudala - D.Glover - A.Williams
> SF V.Carter - J.Rose
> PF D.Marshall - C.Bosh
> C M.Blount - C.Bosh


i like the first one only i take blount over davis


----------



## macro6

Blount is having a steller season, theres no doubt some team will overpay for his services.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

If we somehow magically win the lottery and get the number one pick, how many of you would take Emeka Okafor and how many of you would take Dwight Howard?

I take Okafor, because he is everything this team needs. But Dwight really looks intriguing, and could be a superstar one day. I would hesitate to pick Emeka Okafor because his back injuries are starting to scare me. Doesn't really look that serious, but could be one of those nagging injuries that never goes away.


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> If we somehow magically win the lottery and get the number one pick, how many of you would take Emeka Okafor and how many of you would take Dwight Howard?
> 
> I take Okafor, because he is everything this team needs. But Dwight really looks intriguing, and could be a superstar one day. I would hesitate to pick Emeka Okafor because his back injuries are starting to scare me. Doesn't really look that serious, but could be one of those nagging injuries that never goes away.


Dwight Howard has more potential, but plays the same position as BOSH.

Emeka is gonna be a defensive force, and capable of playing Centre in the East.

So my pick: Emeka.


----------



## Vinsanity

*Rafael Araujo*

raps should draft him....

http://www.draftcity.com/rafaelaraujo.htm

http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/rafaelaraujo.asp

C: Araujo
PF: Bosh
SF: Rose
SG: Carter
PG: Williams

next year's starting line-up


----------



## DAllatt

why wouldn't you put this in the draft thread?


----------



## macro6

Why didnt u post in the 2004 Draft thread?


----------



## derzo

Howard > Okafor.

Okafors back problems are really scaring me right now. I watched the Sycracuse/UConn game and Okafor was really in pain.

I don't see Okafor as a center either, he's only 6'10" and will probably be like Elton Brand. That's not a diss either, I like Brand.

With Howard, hes already 6'11" and might still grow to a legit 7 footer. With that height and his insane athleticism and quickness, him and Bosh are gonna be fun to watch.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

Something that wouldn't be a bad idea if we had a high lottery pick would be to trade it for two lower picks around mid-late first round.

I just say this because there is a lot of potential great players that I see on mocks falling to the later parts of the first round. If we could pick up swingmen like _Luke Jackson_ (http://draftcity.com/lukejackson.htm) or _Francisco Garcia_ (http://draftcity.com/franciscogarcia.htm), and with our other first round take a big man like _Kris Humphries_(http://draftcity.com/krishumphries.htm) or _Andrew Bogut_ (http://draftcity.com/andrewbogut.htm), I'd be extremely happy.

I know it's pretty unlikely, but that would give our team nice depth and would add two nice young players.


----------



## KeonBackinTO

True PG is needed not Gordon, he's not a true PG.

Either Felton, Jameer Nelson or Telfair.

The Raps are so much better with a real point guard running the offense.


----------



## TRON

*Center or PG? Draft or Free agent?*

The Raptors most glaring needs are at the point and Center. Hopefully when new management is determined they will make the right decisions

1. Sign a PG and draft a C or
2. Sign a C and draft a PG

We will most likely have a high draft pick so we will have the option of picking a top rated PG or Center, but not both

examples
1. pick Pavel sign Rafer/Arroyo
2. pick B.Gordon/J.Nelson and sign A.Foyle/D.Davis

what would you guys do?


----------



## Starbury03

I would pick a big I dont know if Pavel would be good but it;s alot harder to find a good big then a good one. There are tons of points in the world.


----------



## TRON

What points are available in the F.A agent market this offseason?


----------



## TRON

each year their is wide spread propaganda that is involved in the draft. Last year, D.Wade was the one everyone put down as being a tweener, too small, just no positives were being written about this guy. Namely by teams hoping he would drop to their pick.

This year I have read nothing but negative things about Pavel, wasn't it just last year that he was nearly a top 5 pick and now people are saying he's actually only 7'3 and has limited potential. What happened to 7'5 with potential from last year. IMO I believe he is the one who GM's want to fall and there is a negativity propaganda campaign going on. Raptors can pick him so I hope the scouts for once do their homework and find out for themselves if he is the real deal or not. If not, go with one of the PG's in the draft


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by *KeonBackinTO*!
> True PG is needed not Gordon, he's not a true PG.
> 
> Either Felton, Jameer Nelson or Telfair.
> 
> The Raps are so much better with a real point guard running the offense.


That is true, we do need a pure point guard. But I think Gordon would be a terrific fit for our team. He's a tough defensive player, he's a good passer and terrific ball handler, and our team could desperately need his scoring as well.

And if you want a true point guard, then we shouldn't go with Jameer Nelson either, although he would be a better option than Gordon in this sense. Jameer Nelson, much like Ben Gordon, is more of a scoring point guard than anything. Though he will probably be the more successful _point guard_ IMO.

We could always trade down, because better options would be Raymond Felton or Sebastian Telfair for our team. They're more distributors than anything and would make our team much better.

Also, you have to think if Arizona has a successful tournie that Mustafa Shakur will at least think about declaring. Another pure point guard with just flawless passing skills, and the ability to slash and cut with the best of them. 

I would be happy with any one of those guys really. Even Devin Harris would be a good point guard for this team. Jameer and Ben are probably going to become combo guards in the league.


----------



## Sánchez AF

we should draft a pg.

because is harder to develop a Center than a pg... and we don't have any chance to get pavel


----------



## macro6

Draft the BEST player available, then worry bout our needs.



*remembers the 1998 draft when everyone said the Raptors needed size and should draft Robert Trayler or Raef Lafrentz*


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>KeonBackinTO</b>!
> True PG is needed not Gordon, he's not a true PG.
> 
> Either Felton, Jameer Nelson or Telfair.
> 
> The Raps are so much better with a real point guard running the offense.


Gordan may not be a true PG like Jason Kidd, but he still is a pretty good PG overall.

Didnt most ppl here wanted Steve Nash here, even though he was a shoot first PG? hes a scoring type PG like Baron, Francis, Gilbert and isnt bad.


----------



## KeonBackinTO

> I would pick a big I dont know if Pavel would be good but it;s alot harder to find a good big then a good one. There are tons of points in the world.


There are tons of points. True.
However, most of them suck. Look at how much better team is with Strickland at point. If we get a good PG like Felton, Nelson or Telfair and resign Strickland the Raps will get homecourt for the playoffs next year.


----------



## lucky777s

We have to pick a PG or C. That is clear.

Which one? Well, the Raps should look at all the options and pick the player who can make the biggest impact on the team year one. Someone who is NBA ready. And someone who can fit in with Bosh. A competitor with mental toughness.

Whichever position that is we use the MLE for the other.

Raps need a younger core. Our MLE should be spent on a player in the age range of 24-26 since we need a long term solution and most MLE type impact players will need a 6 year deal to come here.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by <b>RebelSun</b>!
> According to Insider, the following players are in/out in this year's draft:
> 
> *In:*
> 
> _Kosta Perovic(if he is a top 10 selection, his team will release him from his contract)
> Andris Biedrins("definitely")
> Ivan Chiriaev
> Uros Slokar
> Roko-Leni Ukic
> Damir Omerhodzic("definitely")
> Luka Bogdanovic("definitely")
> Erazem Lorbek (still has one year left on contract, could very likely be a second round pick for a team to sit on)_
> 
> *Out*(At least as of right now):
> 
> _Wayne Simien
> Sean Banks
> Peja Samardziski
> Tiago Splitter
> Loul Deng (will very likely stay at Duke at least one more year)_


http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83592&forumid=8

Interesting... Good to see Kosta in there, he'd be a good pickup. IMO He's the better player than Pavel right now.

And Luol Deng is doing the right thing, he really needs another year in college to develop his game. He's too raw. 

I'd really like to see Sean Banks come out, although he may not be ready, I mean one of my favourite college players, best freshman in the country. Reminds me of T-Mac, alot.


----------



## WhoDaBest23

I think the Raptors need to get a PG in the draft. Jameer Nelson, Ray Felton, Sebastian Telfair, and Ben Gordon all come to mind. I think they'd be happy if they could pick up any one of these 4. 

Another possibilty could be to pick up an athletic G/F in the 1st and pick up Chris Duhon in the 2nd. I think Duhon is a really nice PG, but he might be gone by the time the Raps pick in the 2nd.


----------



## TRON

Iam very intrigued by the PG's available however I remember how small this team is and I think we need to stock up on some bigs if we want to compete next year.

I can't take another year of our team being totally outmatched when it comes to size. I say Take 7'5 Pavel or 6'11 Arujo


----------



## TRON

If we get a good PG like Felton, Nelson or Telfair and resign Strickland the Raps will get homecourt for the playoffs next year.


As good as out backcourt could be, we will go nowhere again next year if we don't get a 7 foot+ Center and a pure rebounding machine that we sorely lacked this year


----------



## Junkyard Dog13

opt 1
Hudson/[SG/SM]

opt 2
D.Davis/PG

opt 3
Blount/retain Peterson and draft a C


----------



## derzo

Best player available. If the best player is a PF, we take him. same if hes a SG or SF.

The team can pull some strings to accomadate the new player, or tinker around with the lineup. Its just the same with this years lineup. Bosh is a PF playing the C, Marshall just gets moved to PF and its all good.

Why take the best player available? Years down the road, us fans are just gonna be saying WTF?!!! why didn't we take so and so, they're a freaking stud while we got stuck with this punk center or point.

If the best player is a C or PG, then take him.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

i'd like to grab a big man. this seems like a good (albeit young and inexperienced) crop of foreign centers. big men usually need some development but i really don't see us getting an elite center through free agency or trades. 

our PG position can be easily shored up through free agency. i'd be content with jalen, alvin, and strickland running the show. 

our center position can also be backed up by a free agent. bosh has shown he can play that position but he should start spending more time at PF. in any case, a bigger Bosh and a decent backup can hold their own while we develop a young center to push Bosh down to PF permanently.

i'd even take a PF/C like biedrins, a pair of superskilled (almost) seven footers could take us far in the east.

some of the point guards look great too but they're a little undersized and are sure things by no means. i would absolutely love to have a later first rounder to take a shot at a foreign point guard but with a top 10 pick i see a lot of potential to find Bosh's running partner in the front court.


----------



## Sánchez AF

can BOSH play at sf ??????


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> can BOSH play at sf ??????


i think he could if needed but that doesn't play to his strength which are rebounding and shotblocking. i think he could guard the big 3s (tim thomas, rashard lewis, etc) pretty effectively on the perimeter. i want bosh at PF unless he were paired with a dynamite 4 (amare or kenyon come to mind).


----------



## Sánchez AF

> i want bosh at PF unless he were paired with a dynamite 4 (amare or kenyon come to mind).


me too but i was thinking in a perfect world we win the lottery we pick a PF (okafor or Howard) and we put Bosh play at 3


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> 
> 
> me too but i was thinking in a perfect world we win the lottery we pick a PF (okafor or Howard) and we put Bosh play at 3


actually meant that having a player like amare would probably keep bosh at the 5. drafting okafor or howard we wouldn't move bosh to the 3. yell would be a more likely candidate though i doubt KO would trust Yell's lateral quickness guarding on the perimeter.

we want to keep bosh near the rim on both sides of the floor, he does an awesome job of challenging with his standing length or he springs up for weakside blocks. given the proper beast to partner him with, bosh could be one of the league's best centers.


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> 
> And Luol Deng is doing the right thing, he really needs another year in college to develop his game. He's too raw.


No way is Luol Deng raw. His game is very polished and if changes his mind to enter the draft, he'll be a big contributor.

He could average 12 pts, 5 rbs next year .


----------



## mo76

What about Devin Harris? Everone on this board seems to be down on him but he seems good to me. Great handle and a good shooter. He looks to pass first but he can score. He was sometimes sloppy with the ball, but he is fast, tall, and plays with some heart.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

harris is looking very good but he's pretty scrawny. definitely worth a hard look if we make playoffs. i'd lean towards him over felton.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> 
> 
> No way is Luol Deng raw. His game is very polished and if changes his mind to enter the draft, he'll be a big contributor.
> 
> He could average 12 pts, 5 rbs next year .


That's true, Deng isn't raw.

I really don't see why he's projected as such a high pick though. What do scouts see in him that stands out so much. He is really _nothing_ like Grant Hill as scouts are comparing him to.

He's not well coordinated at all. He looks very slow and his athletic ability is nothing special. He rarely passes the ball when he gets it, and his court vision is not really as great as scouts are saying

Don't get me wrong, I like Deng. But I really don't see what scouts are drooling over. I think he's more athletic than he looks, though because when he runs on the break you can see it. I really like draftcitys comparison to Paul Pierce than a lot of peoples comparisons to Grant Hill.

Deng will contribute next year, but I think he's better off staying at Duke and developing his skills. He's not even that big a part of Duke's offense.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

*ARTICLES*



> _"But in spite of his statements, talk of the two-time Newsday All-City guard skipping college for the NBA intensified when his name appeared on the roster of three postseason All-Star games - the EA Roundball Classic (March 24), the McDonald's All-American game (March 31) and the Jordan Capital Classic (April 17). Under NCAA rules, a student-athlete would lose his first year of eligibility if he participates in more than two All-Star basketball games before high school graduation. Telfair tried to defuse the situation by saying the only game he is "definitely" committed to is the McDonald's All-American game, which is in Oklahoma City."_


 _*NY Newsday (Full Article *_



> _"Connecticut guard Ben Gordon (after proving he's a mediocre big guard in college, he hopes to switch over to the point in the NBA), Wisconsin guard Devin Harris (some say he has developed out of nowhere; I say the Big Ten was down this year), Syracuse forward Hakim Warrick (he has one skill -- he can jump; most NBA players can) and Gonzaga forward Ronny Turiaf (rumor has it he already has signed with a foreign agent -- fitting because he has Italian League-level skills)."_


 *Alameda Times-Star (Full Article)*


----------



## Psubs

It's all about Sebastian Telfair!

Tony Parker + T.J. Ford


----------



## SkywalkerAC

*Josh Smith*

might be the best shooter of any prep to pros player (kobe and rashard are probably considered the best at the moment) to date. he's got outlandish athleticism and advanced playmaking skills. there's a chance he could fall to us in the draft but right now he's ranked quite high. rising stocks in the NCAA and of foreign players could help us land him.


----------



## macro6

Centers:

Martynas Andriuskevicius 7-3 240 C (Lithuania) 1986

VS

Pavel Podkolzine 7-5 303 C (Russia) 1985

VS 

Kosta Perovic 7-2 240 C (Serbia-Montenegro) 1985



Most potential? Most likely to flop?


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> Centers:
> 
> Martynas Andriuskevicius 7-3 240 C (Lithuania) 1986
> 
> VS
> 
> Pavel Podkolzine 7-5 303 C (Russia) 1985
> 
> VS
> 
> Kosta Perovic 7-2 240 C (Serbia-Montenegro) 1985
> 
> Most potential? Most likely to flop?


I know for a fact Vicious won't come out this year. He's stated in several interviews or whatever that he'll spend at least another year or two in Europe, because he wants to be ready.

So Pavel vs Kosta? 

Tough one, Pavel's got more size, Kosta has more skills. I think I'd take Kosta, from what I've seen he's more ready then Pavel, and when Nenad Kristic of the Nets went down with an injury earlier this year in Europe, Kosta filled in for him in the starting spot and played very well. But he broke his wrist or hand, so that might affect his stock. While Pavel hardly gets any playing time with his team.

And about your signature. I guess your talking about Ben Gordon and Kost Perovic.

You wouldn't rather have an Zydrunas Ilgauskas than a Baron Davis? Because I know I would. Take away the foot injuries from Big Z, and add Kosta's good defense, and you have a terrific centre. Baron Davis is a great player, but combo guards aren't really rare nowadays, while a centre is the most valuable thing. But whos to say either Gordon or Kosta don't turn out worse or better than each of those players.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

Chiriaev is training his *** off and he's a guy that we definitely have to look at. He's similar to Lampe except with better skills and athleticism (i believe); he may be the best shooter in this draft. He's doing plyo to increase his explosiveness and already has some muscle, unlike some of the similar freaks that have come into the league. it's players like ivan that are changing the nba and will continue to do so. 

Rose
Vince
Ivan
Yell
Bosh

now there's a team that can really create some mismatches, maybe moreso than the mavs. defense might be a concern though.

who has seen him play? i don't care so much about his numbers, how did he move?


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> You wouldn't rather have an Zydrunas Ilgauskas than a Baron Davis? Because I know I would. Take away the foot injuries from Big Z, and add Kosta's good defense, and you have a terrific centre. Baron Davis is a great player, but combo guards aren't really rare nowadays, while a centre is the most valuable thing. But whos to say either Gordon or Kosta don't turn out worse or better than each of those players.


It depends, but a PG like Baron Davis can really help us, can you imagine Baron/Gilbert/Steve Nash running the break with Carter & BOSH on the wing? 

Centres are rare, but theyre most likely to be a dissapointment.
The chances Kosta/Pavol becoming the next Big Z or Yao or Sabonis is very small but the reward can be very high. I just hope Raptors will be scouting heavily and make the best pick possible.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> 
> 
> It depends, but a PG like Baron Davis can really help us, can you imagine Baron/Gilbert/Steve Nash running the break with Carter & BOSH on the wing?


i would love to get a point guard that would force VC to run. however, if we go for a point guard it will be Bosh grabbing the rebounds which makes it tougher to get out on the break.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> 
> 
> It depends, but a PG like Baron Davis can really help us, can you imagine Baron/Gilbert/Steve Nash running the break with Carter & BOSH on the wing?
> 
> Centres are rare, but theyre most likely to be a dissapointment.
> The chances Kosta/Pavol becoming the next Big Z or Yao or Sabonis is very small but the reward can be very high. I just hope Raptors will be scouting heavily and make the best pick possible.


I've watched both Ben Gordon and Kosta Perovic a bit, and I'd say theres probably an equal chance that Gordon will become Baron as there is Kosta will become a Illgauskas.

We do need a point guard very bad, but there's a lot of up and coming big men in the league, and we need a legit centre to win. We have Bosh, but pair him with a star centre and we have a winning team. 

There are a lot of available legit point guards we could take in the second round. Chris Duhon can run the break and would fit in with our defensive style very well, Antonio Burks is another tough gritty player, and Marcelo Huertas who supposedly is already better than Luke Ridnour right now, and is probably going to have the same impact of Barbosa this year, but more of a pure point.

So .. assuming we draft centre first round and go point guard second round.

PG Antonio Burks/Chris Duhon
SG Jalen Rose
SF Vince Carter
PF Donyell Marshall
C Chris Bosh - Kosta Perovic/Pavel Podkolozine/Andris Biendris/Vicious

OR .. assuming we go point guard first round and go for a big man second round(very little big men in 2nd round)

PG Ben Gordon/Jameer Nelson/Shaun Livingston..ect
SG Jalen Rose
SF Vince Carter
PF Donyell Marshall 
C Chris Bosh - Robert Swift/Chris Garnett?

theres viturally no big men available in the second round. but the best case scenario would be to get lucky and win the lottery and get the 1 or 2 pick, then select okafor or howard, and go point guard in first round.


----------



## macro6

I agree, Big man are very important for championship. But I think we can get by with a servicable bigman. Look at Indiana Pacers for instance, they have Jeff Foster as starting centre! Someone like Rasho Nesterivic, Kandiman, Dampier can complement Bosh very well. 

The reason I want a PG so badly cause' I just HATE the way the Raptors play offense. Its soooo goddamn BORING, im suprised Raptor fans still go. With a traditional/scoring pg, we'll able to run more, run more plays (instead of the isolation plays we are accustomed to). If we draft Centre, thats ok with me, im just afraid KO will still run this half-court, slow it down, wait till last secs on shot clock, isolate, type offensive style.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> I agree, Big man are very important for championship. But I think we can get by with a servicable bigman. Look at Indiana Pacers for instance, they have Jeff Foster as starting centre! Someone like Rasho Nesterivic, Kandiman, Dampier can complement Bosh very well.


that level of center is VERY difficult to obtain. they either won't come or will be very expensive. i agree that we can find a servicable center (and bosh is already one of those) but they will likely be a bulky PF, not a true center.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> I agree, Big man are very important for championship. But I think we can get by with a servicable bigman. Look at Indiana Pacers for instance, they have Jeff Foster as starting centre! Someone like Rasho Nesterivic, Kandiman, Dampier can complement Bosh very well.
> 
> The reason I want a PG so badly cause' I just HATE the way the Raptors play offense. Its soooo goddamn BORING, im suprised Raptor fans still go. With a traditional/scoring pg, we'll able to run more, run more plays (instead of the isolation plays we are accustomed to). If we draft Centre, thats ok with me, im just afraid KO will still run this half-court, slow it down, wait till last secs on shot clock, isolate, type offensive style.


well, he will probably still run a similar offense even if we do draft a point guard, with some adjustments. that's why i covet the big man more. KO keeps a pretty tight leash and, if we draft a PG, i don't expect that to change. i want to see some speed coming up the court, good decision making, and the ability to make shots. ben gordon might thrive in our system, getting plenty of room to operate. telfair might force us to get a new coach.

one has to take a look around and see what the rest of the league is doing. more and more teams are getting stocked up with two or more skilled big men. thankfully we have bosh to get us started in the right direction but he's not going to be enough. i want another big man with uber-potential and we're not going to find one anywhere but the draft. it's possible that all these guys are gone by the time we pick but i have to hope.


----------



## Goku

Rafael Arujo is on TV right now playing against Syracuse. He looks pretty darn good to me. Huge, strong, and even pretty fast around the hoop. Also looks like he has extremely long arms. Looks like he has a nasty streak too.


----------



## speedythief

> Originally posted by <b>Goku</b>!
> Rafael Arujo is on TV right now playing against Syracuse. He looks pretty darn good to me. Huge, strong, and even pretty fast around the hoop. Also looks like he has extremely long arms. Looks like he has a nasty streak too.


I'm watching that too. He looks out of shape, though. Runs well enough.


----------



## macro6

Im watching the game as well.

Rafael Arujo is showing a soft touch around the basket. Hes not really athletic, and looks a little slow.

Hakim Warrick skinny stature is really hurting him in this game. The big man from BYU are just punishing him down low. He does show nice athleticsim and a nice touch around the basket. He really loves the back-to-basket game, but hes really limited due to his weight. He needs to put on more weight. I like his game.


----------



## Goku

Warrick doesn't look like he has added any size since last year. I think he will always be that size. 

I don't think Arujo looks all that slow for a guy his size. He is Eddy Curry's size. Can't expect a super-freak.

I wonder where McNamarra will get picked, or if he is even in the draft. I remember being amazed by his shooting touch last year, and he is just going crazy out there today.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> Hakim Warrick skinny stature is really hurting him in this game. The big man from BYU are just punishing him down low. He does show nice athleticsim and a nice touch around the basket. He really loves the back-to-basket game, but hes really limited due to his weight. He needs to put on more weight. I like his game.


I think Hakim Warrick looked really good in the Syracuse game(second half anyways), he almost single handedly fouled out the entire BYU frontcourt in the second half.

The problem about Warrick is that he's a PF stuck in a SF's body. If he put on a lot of muscle he could really be a star player in the NBA. Not a lot of weight, because that would slow him down too much. I think he is a Darius Miles/Marcus Camby mix. Definetly not a bad thing. He's got a good attitude.



> The reason I want a PG so badly cause' I just HATE the way the Raptors play offense. Its soooo goddamn BORING, im suprised Raptor fans still go. With a traditional/scoring pg, we'll able to run more, run more plays (instead of the isolation plays we are accustomed to). If we draft Centre, thats ok with me, im just afraid KO will still run this half-court, slow it down, wait till last secs on shot clock, isolate, type offensive style.


I have to agree with this, I mean our offense is just _horrible_ to watch. We need a _pass_ first point guard to come in and run our offense, and not really worry about scoring. Once we get a player like that our offense should be more fluid and execute more often. I think a Ben Gordon combo guard type player would also fit in, but this team really needs a general out there to run plays and execute them effectively without having to actually score so much. I'm not saying the point guard can't score, but he has to be worried about getting his teammates some before getting himself some. We have no point guard on our team like this except Rod Strickand.



> one has to take a look around and see what the rest of the league is doing. more and more teams are getting stocked up with two or more skilled big men. thankfully we have bosh to get us started in the right direction but he's not going to be enough. i want another big man with uber-potential and we're not going to find one anywhere but the draft. it's possible that all these guys are gone by the time we pick but i have to hope.


This is true. As much as I want a point guard, pair Bosh will a centre with potential, and we'll be contenders down the road. There are a lot of teams with young big men. Other than Bosh, we viturally have no future on this team down the road, he's going to need help, and put him together with a nice defensive centre (theres a lot of those in this draft) and we'd be scary.

Speaking of Centres, _Andris Biedrins_ was on Basketball International on Raptors TV today. They showed a lot of video clips of him, and let me say I was intrigued. He's got a lot of offensive moves, and he's a tremendous shot blocker. He'll probably be the first international player taken in the draft, but I think we'll have a legit chance of taking him. They interviewed him too, and seems like a really nice guy with a good attitude.


----------



## macro6

Anyone watch Chris Paul today?

First time I see him play and I love this guy's game so far. Hes a pass-first type PG we need. He really has good court vision, a very good penetrator as well. Handled pressure down the stretch, making those sweet passes inside.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

how about Nelson lighting it up for 33 points?


----------



## SkywalkerAC

damn, i keep forgetting that charlotte will be pushing us down another spot in the draft. i guess we're currently in 11th.


----------



## madman

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> Anyone watch Chris Paul today?
> 
> First time I see him play and I love this guy's game so far. Hes a pass-first type PG we need. He really has good court vision, a very good penetrator as well. Handled pressure down the stretch, making those sweet passes inside.


ya he would be a good fit but i think we need a big before a PG


----------



## bigbabyjesus

Chris Paul would be awesome and a great fit for our team. I'd take him above Ben Gordon and Jameer Nelson probably, if he came out this year. But he isn't. He's just a freshman. He'll probably come out next year.

Watch out for Raymond Felton tonight against Air Force. Have a feeling he's going to tear it up. After all its been a great day for point guards so far.

_*Chris Paul* - 22 PTS, 7 AST, 3 REB
*Jameer Nelson* - 33 PTS, 4 AST, 3 REB
*John Gilchrist* - 18 PTS, 5 AST, 7 REB
*Gerry McNamara* - 43 PTS, 1 AST, 3 REB_

and more like t.j sorrentine, taliek brown.. just too lazy to dig up stats


----------



## madman

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> 
> *Gerry McNamara* - 43 PTS, 1 AST, 3 REB[/I]


if we get him every game Leo will be saying "hey chuck where did he go to school???"


----------



## macro6

I hope Chris Paul declares.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

arujao looked pretty good but was knocked out. he reminds me of a bigger brad miller. he'd be a decent pick but not the uber-freak that i desire.


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> arujao looked pretty good but was knocked out. he reminds me of a bigger brad miller. he'd be a decent pick but not the uber-freak that i desire.


Arujao is 24 yrs old, so he doesnt have the that "upside" that GM's covet. I still think he'll be pick in the mid to late 20's. He willl be able to contribute right away.



I was reading ESPN Insider, they said NBA GM's think Chris Paul will be the first PG taken if he declared. They hes a better prospect than Jay Williams and TJ Ford. Its still impressive. Hopefully he'll declare so Raptors can pick him.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> 
> I was reading ESPN Insider, they said NBA GM's think Chris Paul will be the first PG taken if he declared. They hes a better prospect than Jay Williams and TJ Ford. Its still impressive. Hopefully he'll declare so Raptors can pick him.


I don't think he'll be the first point guard taken. I can't see a team taking him over the likes of especially Jameer Nelson, Ben Gordon. I'd take him over Telfair and Felton, but it would be close.

Chris Paul is a terrific young guard, but has a lot of improvement ahead of him. Although I'd like the Raptors to take him, it really is in his best interest to stay in college for another year or two, then he'll be a top 5 pick for sure.

I think him and Felton would be the best two fits for our teams, actually. They both have unbelievable court vision, terrific speed and basketball IQ. Those things can't be taught. I especially think Felton would fit in, terrific defender, _very_ unselfish, knows where the player wants the ball, just a terrific feel for the game.


On another note, I think another good pick for us would be F/C Andrew Bogut, from Utah. I think he could be the perfect frontcourt partner for Chris Bosh. He and Bosh can either play the 4 or 5. The most notable parts of his game are his terrific post moves, rebounding and passing. He's just a monster. He's the best player ever to come out of Australia. 16 PTS, 8 REB, 2 AST today in a tough loss.
*Andrew Boguts DRAFTCITY Profile *


----------



## macro6

Im not really a big Felton fan. His outside shot is questionable. Hes way too passive on the offensive end.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

i'm not that high on felton either but i look forward to seeing how he does as the tourney progresses.


----------



## macro6

After watching the Chicago game and seeing Kirk Hinrich......



I want a POINT GUARD~! 


Ben Gordan
Raymond Felton
Devin Harris
Jameer Nelson
Chris Paul

Any of these PG will make our offense much more fluid and exciting (only if KO allows it)


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> After watching the Chicago game and seeing Kirk Hinrich......
> 
> 
> 
> I want a POINT GUARD~!
> 
> 
> Ben Gordan
> Raymond Felton
> Devin Harris
> Jameer Nelson
> Chris Paul
> 
> Any of these PG will make our offense much more fluid and exciting (only if KO allows it)


are these guys going to be as good as hinrich?

this may seem like a strong draft for point guards but last year produced wade, hinrich, and ford in the lottery. will 2004 compare?


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> 
> are these guys going to be as good as hinrich?
> 
> this may seem like a strong draft for point guards but last year produced wade, hinrich, and ford in the lottery. will 2004 compare?


Who knows?

It might be better, equal or even worst....

Its all up to the Raptors scouts to find out :uhoh: :uhoh:


----------



## bigbabyjesus

I think Felton, Paul and Telfair will all be better than Hinrich.

Remember Hinrich is already 23-24, he doesn't have huge upside, he's not going to get _that_ much better than he is now. But he is going to be a very solid player. 

Basically, we have to blow this team up, keep Jalen Rose, and Chris Bosh, and build around them, as well as this draft pick. If we trade Vince and Donny ect for young players and draft picks, our team will look good for the future.

..and guys.. How can you not like Felton?

He probably has the best court vision in the whole country, its unbelievable. He's not a big scorer, but he definetly has the talent to be one with his speed and his inconsistent, but nice stroke. He's the general of North Carolinas offense, he's really what we need.

That's why I'd want Telfair, or Felton over Gordon and Nelson. I don't mention Paul because he's not going to come out this year, I think thats certain. 

Our draft pick would probably be too high to draft Hakim Warrick, but I think he'd compliment Chris Bosh really well. There really similar build, skinny stature, and very athletic. We could trade Donny for a centre, and play Bosh and Warrick at the 3/4, Warrick most of the time at the 3, and Bosh most of the time at the 4. 

Theres really so many options in this draft, I'm really looking forward to this years draft. Much more exciting than last years (after the lottery) because we basically knew we were picking Bosh when Pavel pulled out.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

iguodala was knocked out in the first round and definitely has a chance to fall to us.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

hopefully Vince takes a few games off here. him going down late last year probably made the difference between bosh and kaman. then we just need the sixers to step up and we'll be looking at the 8th or 9th pick. 

last year that would have landed us with TJ Ford (or Jarvis Hayes). 2004 is still very uncertain but if most of the top prospects declare we should get a great player and not have to worry about tearing up our team and starting from scratch.

if we could get a point guard of hinrich's calibre, i'd be quite content. don't forget that he's a great defender either.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

damn, i know Chris Paul most likely won't declare, but this guy reminds me so much of a Stephon Marbury. a little smaller, and a better passer, but he's damn impressive. 29 PTS, 8 REB, 6 AST, 3 STL, 2 BLK and coming off a 22 PT, 7 AST day in his first ncaa tournie appearence. i've seen him a few times this season, but none of those times did he play like this. he's only a freshman!

it's got to be him, Raymond Felton or Sebastian Telfair if we're going to with a point guard. we need a pure point badly and all of these guys would fit the bill perfectly. i really see Chris Paul as the next Stephon Marbury, Raymond Felton as the next Gary Payton, and i have no clue about Sebastian Telfair as i've only seen him one game.

theres so many options!


----------



## SkywalkerAC

yeah, i saw paul for the first time today and was very impressed.


----------



## macro6

Chris Paul had a awesome game.

Everytime I watch him, I come away more impressed. Nobody on the Manhatten team couldnt stop him, he just took over and won it for Wake Forest. This guy gotta be one of the best pure PG in college. He has unbelievable court vision. I love his transition game, he pushes the ball constantly when he can, Manhatten were litterly on their heels tryin to slow him down. He's also a very good finisher around the basket. His defense is isnt bad either, very active. I agree, he looks a Stephon Marbury but a pass first type. Even though he may not declare this year, you'll never know, if Wake Forest goes far (Final Four) its possible he might declare.


Raymond Felton, on the other hand, I have mix feelings bout him. He didnt play up to standard in the N.Carolina/Texas game, hit a couple of shots important shots though, but wasnt enough. I dunno, I just dont he'll be a star type PG. He has nice court awareness, but his overall game needs polish. He tends to stay on the perimeter a lot, rarely penetrating and creating for his teammates. He needs to drive more, but the problem is that he has trouble finishing. Again, I thought he was passive, he could of took over like Chris Paul in the Texas game, but that never happend. He needs to stay another year.

My Point Guard Rankings:

1. Chris Paul (if he declares)
2. Sabastien Telfair (If he declares)
3. Ben Gordan
4. Devin Harris
5. Raymond Felton (if he declares)
6. Jameer Nelson

--------------

Right now, I'd worry bout' the Clippers and Warriors. Their below us in the draft right now (could change at the end of year). Clippers need a PG, so they will pick Telfair if he declares, and Warriors need a PG also and im certain they will pick either Harris or Gordan. Hopefully Philly can win a couple of games, Clippers/Warriors win a couple, and with us sliding we should fall to the 7th pick overall.


----------



## kirk_2003

FELTON goes first for me, under-rated scorer

PAUL goes second, kid got talent

NELSON goes third, damn he is on fire in the tourney just watch him take ST.JOES to final 4. DID i say he can SHOOT?!?!


----------



## SkywalkerAC

i can't wait to see telfair play. he will be the first true point guard drafted out of high school. a guy that makes everything happen on the court- kidd, stockton, magic, et al- is a once in leap year player. chris paul might to have this same potential. 

the thing with ALL of these guys (except livingston) is that they're undersized. they aren't all going to strut into the NBA and dominate. a few of them are going to struggle mightily. the question should be- which of these guys is going to have the least impact in the NBA?

in spite of all that BS, they would probably all be starting for the raptors right now.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

the good news is that one of these guys will drop to us in this draft, no matter what. we will just have to hope our scouts either pick the right one, or not pick one at all.

right now i'm hoping for livingston...he has great size, incredible speed, playmaking ability, and unadulterated talent. he's the next generation in the jalen rose line of players.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

of course that's all speculation because i've never watched him play a single game. still, he seems to be ranked ahead of telfair. might be a long shot but plenty of high schooler have been past over by the first 5 picks. 

another guy that could fall is Deng if he comes out. than again, he could very well be winning the national championship. still, a backcourt trio of Jalen, Deng, and Carter would be deadly- with Bosh at PF and Marshall at 6th man and a capable center we're one of the best in the east.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

however, at our draft position (8-10 i hope) the guy with the highest potential could very well be Ivan Chiriaev. the summit is going to be HUGE for him and i hope he does well but doesn't play himself above our pick. 

he's inexperienced but he's a freak of nature. he's one of the best shooters in the draft at 7'1 for crying out loud. he works his *** off and you can see how much he wants to be one of the best. he's cocky as hell and that's a big plus for a player of his type. dude is massive and can run the floor well dribbling with both hands at the same time. he's doing plyometric training and that in itself is a testamest to his athletic ability. just like bosh, he's all business. 

scratch livingston, i think we have a better shot at ivan.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

warrick with another good game but does his spindly post up game translate?

sato looks like he's worth our second rounder.

on a side note, i really wish we had our own second round pick as well as cleveland's. we need to fill out our roster cheaply and 3 draft picks (let's say Paul, Sato, and Varejao) along with Bonner sounds pretty good to me. that leaves our MLE for a center like blount or Etan and other players to fill out the roster. 

i don't know why i'm going to fill out this lineup at 4:47 am but i don't really feel like going to sleep just yet...skywalker at his coolest 

Chris Paul/Jalen/Alvin
Vince Carter/Deshawn Stevenson/Sato/Alvin
Jalen/Rodney White/Murray (whom i'd like to see with a good PG again)
Bosh/Yell/Varejao
Etan Thomas/Bosh/Bonner/Moiso

i'm kinda worried about that center position but let's hope for a lot of improvement from bosh. 

one of the the key points from this post is DEVELOP SOME PLAYERS ALREADY!!!! 

this is the kind of rebuilding i want to see (although getting all those players is a little much to hope for). no weak links on the floor. depth, athleticism, leadership, star power, etc. more upside than the pacers.


----------



## Goku

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> 
> 
> Arujao is 24 yrs old, so he doesnt have the that "upside" that GM's covet. I still think he'll be pick in the mid to late 20's. He willl be able to contribute right away.
> .


his age is the best thing about him. He will probably slip and could be had with the right deal. I don't know about falling to the 20's, but hopefully he does and Glenn picks him up cheap. 

I think he's going to be one of those guys that teams regret passing. Big Country with heart.


----------



## Mr_B

> i'm kinda worried about that center position but let's hope for a lot of improvement from bosh.
> 
> .


bosh will be comming off the bench next year if the raps get a legit center


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> i can't wait to see telfair play. he will be the first true point guard drafted out of high school. a guy that makes everything happen on the court- kidd, stockton, magic, et al- is a once in leap year player. chris paul might to have this same potential.


Man, if Telfair plays anything like Chris Paul but better/equal I say take him!

With a true PG, KO wont have any lame excuses left on why we still have a boring *** team next year.





> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> right now i'm hoping for livingston...he has great size, incredible speed, playmaking ability, and unadulterated talent. he's the next generation in the jalen rose line of players.



Im not to sure bout' a 6'6 "Point Guard". They usually switch to SG/SF in a couple of years cause' it takes a toll on their body trying to guard fast PGs.




> Originally posted by <b>Goku</b>!
> 
> 
> his age is the best thing about him. He will probably slip and could be had with the right deal. I don't know about falling to the 20's, but hopefully he does and Glenn picks him up cheap.
> 
> I think he's going to be one of those guys that teams regret passing. Big Country with heart.


I think he can be good servicable centre. Maybe GG (or our NEW GM) aquires a midround draft pick to draft him or David Harrison.



> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> bosh will be comming off the bench next year if the raps get a legit center


Bosh will be our starting PF if we get a Centre via Free-agency or Draft. Donyell will be coming off teh bench or be used as trade bait.


----------



## kirk_2003

I wouldnt mind picking any of these POINTS in the second round.

- Chris DUHON
- Blake STEPP
- Timmy BOWERS


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by *macro6*!
> Chris Paul had a awesome game.
> 
> Everytime I watch him, I come away more impressed. Nobody on the Manhatten team couldnt stop him, he just took over and won it for Wake Forest. This guy gotta be one of the best pure PG in college. He has unbelievable court vision. I love his transition game, he pushes the ball constantly when he can, Manhatten were litterly on their heels tryin to slow him down. He's also a very good finisher around the basket. His defense is isnt bad either, very active. I agree, he looks a Stephon Marbury but a pass first type. Even though he may not declare this year, you'll never know, if Wake Forest goes far (Final Four) its possible he might declare.
> 
> 
> Raymond Felton, on the other hand, I have mix feelings bout him. He didnt play up to standard in the N.Carolina/Texas game, hit a couple of shots important shots though, but wasnt enough. I dunno, I just dont he'll be a star type PG. He has nice court awareness, but his overall game needs polish. He tends to stay on the perimeter a lot, rarely penetrating and creating for his teammates. He needs to drive more, but the problem is that he has trouble finishing. Again, I thought he was passive, he could of took over like Chris Paul in the Texas game, but that never happend. He needs to stay another year.
> 
> My Point Guard Rankings:
> 
> 1. Chris Paul (if he declares)
> 2. Sabastien Telfair (If he declares)
> 3. Ben Gordan
> 4. Devin Harris
> 5. Raymond Felton (if he declares)
> 6. Jameer Nelson


the one point guard i haven't seen play in this years draft is Shaun Livingston. he seems very intriguing. he is pegged as a top 5 pick in most mock drafts, impressive. but i don't think we really need him. we already have two taller people in Rose and Vince who can run the point effectively. but if the penny hardaway comparisons are right, i'd definetly take him. and either look to deal Vince/Rose.

i really think Chris Paul needs to declare now. his stock is really skyrocketing right now, coming of an impressive freshman season and two stellar tournie games. wake forest is probably going to go far in the tournie, so all signs right now are pointing to 'declare', really. going back to college might end up hurting him.

about Felton, he has the ability to be a great scorer and his shot has vastly improved since last year. people say he isn't a good scorer, but thats ignorant, because he does not have to score and put his team on his back like Paul does because Felton has McCants and May, and Jawad, so he's like the 3rd, 4th option. i don't see Felton declaring this year, because next year the tar heels have a very nice freshman class coming in, and that gives them more depth to make a serious run.

i think there both going to be great stars in the league. but i think theres a very good chance Felton could end up being the better player.




> Originally posted by *SkywalkerAC*!
> however, at our draft position (8-10 i hope) the guy with the highest potential could very well be Ivan Chiriaev. the summit is going to be HUGE for him and i hope he does well but doesn't play himself above our pick.
> 
> he's inexperienced but he's a freak of nature. he's one of the best shooters in the draft at 7'1 for crying out loud. he works his *** off and you can see how much he wants to be one of the best. he's cocky as hell and that's a big plus for a player of his type. dude is massive and can run the floor well dribbling with both hands at the same time. he's doing plyometric training and that in itself is a testamest to his athletic ability. just like bosh, he's all business.
> 
> scratch livingston, i think we have a better shot at ivan.


i really am looking forward to the hoop summit. 

but from what i've heard Ivan Chiriaev is really not impressing anyone much in Oakville. he puts up weak stats against weak high school competition, and the guy is huge. he should be scoring 50 every game. and i've also heard he's way too perimeter oriented and never goes to work in the post.

i think the summit will hurt _a lot_ of players stock, who are just clearly not ready to play against top notch competition. 

i would take a good 15 players in this draft over Ivan right now. i'd rather take a sure thing than a 7'1 guy who can supposedly run the point. i don't care. he's not what we need, a perimeter oriented big man. 




> Originally posted by *SkywalkerAC*!
> sato looks like he's worth our second rounder.
> 
> on a side note, i really wish we had our own second round pick as well as cleveland's. we need to fill out our roster cheaply and 3 draft picks (let's say Paul, Sato, and Varejao) along with Bonner sounds pretty good to me. that leaves our MLE for a center like blount or Etan and other players to fill out the roster.


i agree i think Sato is going to be a huge steal. with a strong showing in the tournie, you have to wonder if he'll fall to us.

another swingman that would be a great first rounder would be Kirk Snyder. i'd rather have Sato, but both look very promising. both very good all around and smart players.

i'm confident either of these two guys would come off the bench for us and be more effective than Morris Peterson. i mean we need a guy off the bench that can rebound, score, hit threes, and set up teammates at the wing. we don't have that.

i'd also like to have another second rounder. but theirs only really two legit bigs that i maybe see falling to the second round right now. Robert Swift and Anderson Varejao, you might say Swift won't come out if he's only going to go late 1st-early 2nd, but he is eligible for college. so he might have too. 

we might come out of this draft with no bigs at all. point guard first round, swingman second round. free agency is going to be huge.


----------



## macro6

(1) Saint Joseph's
vs
(4) W Forest

Chris Paul vs Jameer Nelson

Its gonna be one heck of a matchup. Cant wait to watch this game.


----------



## macro6

Anyone watch Ivan Chariev on The Score?

This is the first time I have seen Ivan in action (well, its only practice). He showed some really nice handles for his size. Some NBA GM told him he is a top 5 pick to late lottery pick.


----------



## speedythief

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> Anyone watch Ivan Chariev on The Score?
> 
> This is the first time I have seen Ivan in action (well, its only practice). He showed some really nice handles for his size. Some NBA GM told him he is a top 5 pick to late lottery pick.


The jury is still out on Ivan. Check out the thread on him in the draft forum. Some people have seen him play/played against him, and he doesn't seem to demonstrate his potential in live action. But for the scouts to be excited about him, maybe his upside is too great to pass-up.

I doubt he goes sooner than 20th if he declares.



> Originally posted by <b>Carl English</b>!
> I've seen the kid play about 10 times this year and I also played against him. He's the kind of player that can impress in a workout but he can't do squat in the game. There's a lot of uninformed people who sit there and just assume he's kickin' butt and dominating because it's Canadian High School ball but that could not be anymore false. I've never seen him score more than 15 points in a game. And yes, he does often post up but he still gets pushed around and doesn't score. My high school team's barely above average and we killed his team by 22 and held him to 5 points. Body him up and he's got nothin' cuz' all his skills have been honed on his own with no defence. If my 5'10, 155 lb team mate can lock this kid down and hold him to 5 points......... well, u can draw ur own conclusions when someone like Doug Christie is on him.
> 
> Worst of all, his attitude is garbage. He plays for himself and screams at his team mates and coach over nothing. He left the team at certain stints in the year and got himself suspended for fighting the day before the first round of playoffs.


----------



## macro6

NBADRAFT.net updated their mock draft.

They have us drafting Ben Gordan  Sabastien Telfair/Chris Paul would be better.

Ivan Cheriev skyrocketed up to 7th spot. damn.

Pavel Podkolzine stock dropped a little.



Up to 5 High School players could be taken in the top 10 draft.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> this year a weak draft year use the pick as trade bait and pakage it along with another player AKA murray and trade it for a center



Yeah maybe Shaq!!


----------



## :TorontoRaptors:

Hopefully the Raptors lose every game from now until the end of the season... because with the current squad, it would be a waste of a draft pick to make a run for the playoffs as Cleveland would recieve our first round pick if the Raps make it.

This team's obviously not a contender and it would be wise to drop in the standings to acquire a higher pick.

The players I really like...

*First Round* 
1. Ben Gordon
2. Sebastien Telfair
3. Devan Harris
4. Ivan Chiriaev
5. Kosta Perovic (Contract dispute, or atleast the possibility)

*Guys I would stay away from in the first round...*

1. Josh Childress (Chris Jefferies v.02)
2. Pavel Podkolzine
3. Jameer Nelson
4. Hakim Warrick

*Second Round*

1. Lionel Chalmers
2. Chris Duhon
3. Robert Swift
4. Christian Drejer
5. Blake Stepp


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>:TorontoRaptors:</b>!
> Hopefully the Raptors lose every game from now until the end of the season... because with the current squad, it would be a waste of a draft pick to make a run for the playoffs as Cleveland would recieve our first round pick if the Raps make it.
> 
> This team's obviously not a contender and it would be wise to drop in the standings to acquire a higher pick.
> 
> The players I really like...
> 
> *First Round*
> 1. Ben Gordon
> 2. Sebastien Telfair
> 3. Devan Harris
> 4. Ivan Chiriaev
> 5. Kosta Perovic (Contract dispute, or atleast the possibility)
> 
> *Guys I would stay away from in the first round...*
> 
> 1. Josh Childress (Chris Jefferies v.02)
> 2. Pavel Podkolzine
> 3. Jameer Nelson
> 4. Hakim Warrick
> 
> *Second Round*
> 
> 1. Lionel Chalmers
> 2. Chris Duhon
> 3. Robert Swift
> 4. Christian Drejer
> 5. Blake Stepp


I agree on philosophy 100%. I did the same last year. What is there to gain by qualifying 8th? 2 playoff dates for MLSE. Wow, great. I agree with most of your player analysis.:greatjob:


----------



## :TorontoRaptors:

Thanks.

I see it as if you have a contender that can win a couple rounds, that's great... make a run for the playoffs. But this team is not currently in that position. If they do make the playoffs, they will be lucky to win 1 game and we most likely would have to dish out our 1st round pick to Cleveland.

On the other hand, there really isn't anything you can do to finish lower then they are right now. You've got to play Carter and Rose because of the dough they get paid as well as Bosh and Marshall... and that's a lineup that can get hot and win 4 or 5 games straight.

But as a fan, I pray they lose as much as possible to get a higher pick... if not to draft a better player, then to make a trade to bring in a centre... because aside from the two or three true centres in the first round, there won't be that Pau Gasol type centre available when the Raps pick... around 8 to 10.


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>:TorontoRaptors:</b>!
> Hopefully the Raptors lose every game from now until the end of the season... because with the current squad, it would be a waste of a draft pick to make a run for the playoffs as Cleveland would recieve our first round pick if the Raps make it.
> 
> This team's obviously not a contender and it would be wise to drop in the standings to acquire a higher pick.
> 
> The players I really like...
> 
> *First Round*
> 1. Ben Gordon
> 2. Sebastien Telfair
> 3. Devan Harris
> 4. Ivan Chiriaev
> 5. Kosta Perovic (Contract dispute, or atleast the possibility)
> 
> *Guys I would stay away from in the first round...*
> 
> 1. Josh Childress (Chris Jefferies v.02)
> 2. Pavel Podkolzine
> 3. Jameer Nelson
> 4. Hakim Warrick
> 
> *Second Round*
> 
> 1. Lionel Chalmers
> 2. Chris Duhon
> 3. Robert Swift
> 4. Christian Drejer
> 5. Blake Stepp


I like ur First Round list.

One Problem:
Ivan Cheriev on the list we should draft? YIKES. He belongs on the "stay away" list. Hes a big big big risk to take in the lottery. 

Dont forget to add Chris Paul to the list cause he will declare when Wake Forest makes the FINAL FOUR


----------



## butr

I think its important that people understand some thing about this draft. If you really hope that the Raptors can win now and stay the course, there are only a few players out there that will be available at the Raps' slot. 

There are no Europeans available that will contribute immediately. Period. You have to wait. Peja, Dirk and Pau all took time and so will the rest. Same with most high schoolers. As good as Amare and Lebron are they will be stunning after 3 years pro each.

The college PGs could help some but not a 15 pt and 8 ast guy. You will not get a front court guy who can contribute now. I think that by all accounts Araujo will be the quickest to impact upfront but he is projected later and has seemingly less upside.

You see, this is why I want to blow the team up. The draft just does not provide a lot of immediate impact players anymore. The system has been sucked dry. If we get lucky enough to draft the top highschoolers or euros, Vince will be 30 and Jalen 34 by the time they are really good. Vince will be even more perimeter oriented by then because the hopps will have diminished. Jalen will be, well even older and poorer on D than he is now.


----------



## :TorontoRaptors:

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> 
> 
> I like ur First Round list.
> 
> One Problem:
> Ivan Cheriev on the list we should draft? YIKES. He belongs on the "stay away" list. Hes a big big big risk to take in the lottery.
> 
> Dont forget to add Chris Paul to the list cause he will declare when Wake Forest makes the FINAL FOUR


I didn't pay any attention to the Wake Forrest so far... so I don't know much about Chris Paul except that he apparentely had a great game.

I will have to wait and see him play, but I definately like what I saw from Devan Harris. He just has that NBA touch.

On Chiriaev...

I like his shooting skills as well as his ball handling skills... that's why I have him in my "want" list. He's also a local athlete... even though he's Russian, Ivan hopes to bring his family over to Ontario very soon... and we could see him dawn the red & white. If there is a team who is going to take a risk on this kid, I don't see why it won't be the Raptors... especially if we fall to a later pick in the lottery.

He's a project, but the upside is great... very great.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> I think its important that people understand some thing about this draft. If you really hope that the Raptors can win now and stay the course, there are only a few players out there that will be available at the Raps' slot.
> 
> There are no Europeans available that will contribute immediately. Period. You have to wait. Peja, Dirk and Pau all took time and so will the rest. Same with most high schoolers. As good as Amare and Lebron are they will be stunning after 3 years pro each.
> 
> The college PGs could help some but not a 15 pt and 8 ast guy. You will not get a front court guy who can contribute now. I think that by all accounts Araujo will be the quickest to impact upfront but he is projected later and has seemingly less upside.
> 
> You see, this is why I want to blow the team up. The draft just does not provide a lot of immediate impact players anymore. The system has been sucked dry. If we get lucky enough to draft the top highschoolers or euros, Vince will be 30 and Jalen 34 by the time they are really good. Vince will be even more perimeter oriented by then because the hopps will have diminished. Jalen will be, well even older and poorer on D than he is now.


i really don't care whether or not our pick can produce right away or not, as long as we get a good prospect. i don't mind developing a Dirk or as Tmac or other such projects. if Ivan Chiriaev is a great prospect that will take some time to develop, i'll still take him. If that means another year in the lottery, all the better. Adding players with massive potential to an already talented core gives us the chance to be great before too long. 

however, many of the youngest, highest potential prospects are actually going to be drafted earliest (howard, livingston, smith, and others), leaving us with more developed players like Ben Gordon or others. 

as long as this draft doesn't turn out like 2000, i think we'll land a pretty good pick. take a look at all the immediate impact players from last year's draft. 

bottomline, we have to wait and see who we come out with and where we stand before tearing everything up and starting from scratch (which i maintain we can't really do anyways because of our contract situation).


----------



## :TorontoRaptors:

I agree.

If there's a player with great upside like Ivan Chiriaev, I'm willing to wait the 3 or 4 years for him to become a good player... and even more for him to become a great player.

It's really a crapshoot... not as much as the NHL draft, but looking back at some players taken over the last few drafts it looks like anybody we take has a 50-50 shot at either becoming a great player or busting.

It'll be interesting to see who we end up with... but if we can lose 9 or 10 of the remaining games, it'll give us a better pick. 

But this is coming from a part-time Raptors fan who really doesn't see a future right now for this team and doesn't care whether or not they lose 82 games in terms of the season... I care more about the draft at this point.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

the more and more i watch the Raps, as much as we need a point guard, we get rocked in the paint, a big man certainly wouldn't be a bad option, if not the number one option. but i see GG picking a point guard, but thats alright a big man could be acquired through FA or trades.

about losing every game of the season from now on. NO. as much as this team needs a high draft pick, i think making the playoffs and getting a 14-16 range pick would be the best scenario other than winning the lottery. 

because if we made the playoffs, get Bosh some playoff experience, maybe win a series, keep the fans into it. then with our pick, there will be most likely either Ben Gordon, Jameer Nelson, Sebastian Telfair, or Chris Paul still on the board. if not, we can choose a stud like Hakim Warrick with our first rounder, then go point guard in the second round (Chris Duhon?), then make some trades, whether they be blockbuster or not. then sign a couple free agents.

PG _Jalen Rose - Chris Duhon_
SG _Vince Carter - Alvin Williams_
SF _Hakim Warrick - Morris Peterson_
PF _Chris Bosh - Donyell Marshall_
C _Dale Davis - Chris Bosh_

a lot of scenarios, haha, now that i look at that one, i don't really like it, unless we trade one of our big three (vince, rose, donny) for a star point guard/ centre.

maybe not making the playoffs would be better, but thats only the difference between like a 14th pick and a 10th pick.


----------



## :TorontoRaptors:

Hakim Warrick... stud?

Seriously?

Because he really has shown nothing we haven't seen before... there are too many players that are in the same mold as Warrick.

I had him as a top 10 pick last year... but I'm not too high on him this draft... even with it being a weaker one.


----------



## Goku

because if we made the playoffs, get Bosh some playoff experience, maybe win a series, keep the fans into it. then with our pick, there will be most likely either Ben Gordon, Jameer Nelson, Sebastian Telfair, or Chris Paul still on the board. .
. [/QUOTE]

If we make the playoffs we will be picking 15th. There is no way Gordon of Chris Paul will still be around. Nelson and Telffair probably won't be there either.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

it just looks to me like there will be a fairly big dropoff in talent from a top 10 pick to #15. chris paul and gordon are not going to last that long. i'd love to pick up warrick if we had a late first rounder but we can do better i think.


----------



## macro6

Toronto, Golden State, Philly are now tied for 8th spot.


----------



## trick

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> Toronto, Golden State, Philly are now tied for 8th spot.


Golden State?


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> Golden State?


that's eighth in the draft rankings...pretty much as low as we can go unless phoenix or the clips really turn it on.


----------



## :TorontoRaptors:

Don't forget Charlotte.

1. Orlando (.260)
2. Chicago (.282)
3. Atlanta (.310)
4. Charlotte (-)
5. Washington (.314)
6. Phoenix (.333)
7. Los Angeles (.375)
8. Philadelphia (.417)
*9. Toronto (.423)*
10. Golden State (.429)
11. Boston (.437)
12. Seattle (.465)
13. Portland (.507)
14. Utah (.514)

All those teams are out of the playoffs as of this morning. I'm not sure what the deciding factor is, but I did it by winning percentage.


----------



## trick

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> 
> that's eighth in the draft rankings...pretty much as low as we can go unless phoenix or the clips really turn it on.


ohhhhhhh, i thought he was talking about playoff brackets.

: doh :


----------



## macro6

We need to get below the Clippers and the Warriors. Those 2 teams greatest needs are Point Guard. As long as we're below them, its all good.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> We need to get below the Clippers and the Warriors. Those 2 teams greatest needs are Point Guard. As long as we're below them, its all good.


warriors might be looking for a big man to replace dampier- they already have speedy and van exel. we also need to fall below the sixers, just for the heck of it.

clips will hopefully pick up a win tonight against the wiz.

anyone know the odds of getting a top 3 pick if we finish in the 8th spot?


----------



## SkywalkerAC

Dwight Howard
Emeka Okafor
Shaun Livingston
Luol Deng (think he'll come out?)
Josh Smith
Chris Paul
Andris Biedrins
Ivan Chiriaev
Pavel Podkolzine
Ben Gordon
Andre Iguodala
(Martynas Andriuskevicius)- looks like he might not come out but he is ranked very high.

we should be getting one of these guys. damn that's sweet.


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> 
> warriors might be looking for a big man to replace dampier- they already have speedy and van exel. we also need to fall below the sixers, just for the heck of it.
> 
> clips will hopefully pick up a win tonight against the wiz.
> 
> anyone know the odds of getting a top 3 pick if we finish in the 8th spot?


Ya, i forgot bout' Dampier leaving. So they'll be lookin for a big man to replace him.

Clippers are free falling. Hopefully, they'll pick it up and pull togather a winning streak.

With the 8th spot i think we have around 4% chance, though its highly unlikely will win the top 3 lottery, but anything is possible :grinning: . Charlotte, I remember, won the 3rd pick(Baron Davis) with a 0.6% chance, when they were suppose to be picking 13th.


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> Dwight Howard
> Emeka Okafor
> Shaun Livingston
> Luol Deng (think he'll come out?)
> Josh Smith
> Chris Paul
> Andris Biedrins
> Ivan Chiriaev
> Pavel Podkolzine
> Ben Gordon
> Andre Iguodala
> (Martynas Andriuskevicius)- looks like he might not come out but he is ranked very high.
> 
> we should be getting one of these guys. damn that's sweet.


Of that group:

A.Biedrins
Ivan Chiraev
Pavel Podkolzine
A.Iguolala
Ben Gordan
Devin Harris
Chris Paul
Sabastien Telfair
Jameer Nelson

Should Be available at the 7-10th pick.

But everything will depend on workouts... so we'll see...:grinning:


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> 
> 
> Of that group:
> 
> A.Biedrins
> Ivan Chiraev
> Pavel Podkolzine
> A.Iguolala
> Ben Gordan
> Devin Harris
> Chris Paul
> Sabastien Telfair
> Jameer Nelson
> 
> Should Be available at the 7-10th pick.
> 
> But everything will depend on workouts... so we'll see...:grinning:


i think you mean _could_ be available. 

it really DOES look like a strong draft. young and inexperienced but oodles of potential. 

last year may have been the best draft of all time. it featured the strongest first 5 picks of all time; once developed, wade, lebron, melo, bosh, and darko is my dream lineup. however, last year the talent dropped to mike sweetney by the 9th pick. it did prove to have resilient depth but the 6-13 picks (kaman, hinrich, ford, sweetney, hayes, pietrus, collison and banks) don't seem as intriguing as this year. by the 15th pick, talent had dropped to reece gaines.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

one guy that should see a big jump when the pre-draft camps and workouts come around is Ha Seung-Jin. Another huge big man that has been working his *** off in preparation for the 2004 draft- apparently he has been playing 4 hours a day AND working out. he's no Yao Ming but he could be a better pick than Perovic. 

i doubt he's worth a top ten pick but some team could luck on to a very good big man (down the road). 

check out his profile here http://www.draftcity.com/haseungjin.htm


----------



## Goku

Raptors TV showed a couple of Ha's games. He looked alright. Moved ok, but didn't really get involved in a lot of plays. Just sort of wandered around waiting for the ball. 

Jameer Nelson is destroying Chris Paul right now. Everyone said Paul would expose him. This might keep Paul from declaring this year. Hope not.


----------



## speedythief

> Originally posted by <b>Goku</b>!
> Jameer Nelson is destroying Chris Paul right now. Everyone said Paul would expose him. This might keep Paul from declaring this year. Hope not.


Nelson abused Paul tonight. Paul should wait another year. After watching that game I'd take Nelson over Paul. CP also needs to gain some weight.

Syracuse is gone! Arghh!  

Oh well. Go UCONN!


----------



## macro6

Off-nite by Chris Paul. Nelson, D.West and Barley just shut him out of the game.

Even though St.Joseph won this game, I would still take Chris Paul over Jameer Nelson. I'd even take Ben Gordan, Devin Harris, Telfair over Nelson.

If Chris Paul declares, he'll be the first or second PG taken. If he stays, he'll be a top 5 pick next year.

Jameer Nelson is the next Damon Stoudamire (His first 2 years).


----------



## Goku

He is supposedly a much smarter player than Damon, and a floor-general and all the other cliches. 

If thats true (looked like it to me) I like this guy a bunch. Damon's speed, driving ability, sick handles, but add in some court vision and smarts. Only thing I don't like is he seems all thugged out. Got "all eyez on me" tattoed on his back. lol

I was pretty underwhelmed by Paul. I hear so much about his vast potential, but he looks about as good as Devin Harris skill wise. There are points that look that good every draft. He must be good though, I'm not saying he isn't. I just don't see what everyone else does (didn't see his dominant game last week either, and have only seen him play twice so whatever)

I'd love to see Livingston play. Gordon looks incredible at times. Harris and Paul look like they are missing something. Nelson looks incredible too. I'm guessing professional scouts know more than I do though, so I'd be happy if Paul falls to us.

worst thing about that loss for Chris Paul is he might decide he's not ready for the draft. We need him in there. Badly.


----------



## macro6

It looks like Chris Paul is leaning towards staying another year. He should be top 5-10 next year.

My PG list so far:

1. Sabastien Telfair
2. Ben Gordan 
3. Devin Harris
4. Shaun Livingston (I dunno how long a 6-7" "point guard" will last in the NBA.)
5. Jameer Nelson


----------



## :TorontoRaptors:

I read somewhere that Livingston is expected to be a "great" player.

I don't think he'll last to our pick.

My PG list...

1. Shaun Livingston
2. Ben Gordon
3. Sebastien Telfair
4. Devan Harris
5. Jameer Nelson


----------



## Sánchez AF

WE SHOULD DRAFT JAMMER NELSON AFTER YESTERDAY'S GAME AGAINST WAKE FOREST HE'S A TRUE LEADER


----------



## macro6

We should have sole position of the 8th overall pick.

Philly won.

Golden State should win over Washington.







woot! :yes:   :yes:  


Ben Gordan :yes:


----------



## macro6

Ben Gordan played great against Alabama.

Emeka Okafor is just a MONSTER on the defensive end.



UCONN is just dominating the competition.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

okafor and bosh would be awesome to watch together. they are such smart players at both ends of the floor. 

gordon seems more and more like he could be our guy. now i have to see how nelson looks...


----------



## butr

*If we draft at 8-10...*

... are staying the course with this core and decide to draft at the point who do you draft? Why in particular?


----------



## Bobby Buckets

Jameer Nelson this kids game is just sick


----------



## SkywalkerAC

ben gordon or jameer nelson. i don't like that they're all under sized but they do have great games and good experience in the ncaa. 

i'm not convinced that point guard will definitely be the way to go but we will have the opportunity to draft a very good one.


----------



## macro6

My Top 3 Choices:

Chris Paul - Best natural PG in the country. Hes a TJ Ford with offense or a Stephon Marbury with a Pass-First type. Does it all, Will likely to stay another year. Top 10 this year, Top 5 next year if he improves.

Ben Gordan - A combo guard, but a very good one. Think Baron Davis, Gilbert Arenas. I predict a Kirk Hirinch performance in his rookie season - 12 pts 6 ast.

Sabastien Telfair - Never seen him play, but from scouting reports he is similar to Chris Paul. A pass-first PG that will make his teammates better. Will likely to declare, look for the Clippers to select him or Chris Paul, if he declares.


----------



## texan

chris paul or jameer nelson. paul has the edge imo even after his rough performance in the game vs st joes


----------



## SkywalkerAC

with the performance of some of these guys, they could push a player like livingston down to us.:yes:


----------



## DAllatt

Andris Biedrins...."good rebounder and defender". Would open things up for Bosh. Could develop into a SICK front court. But only if he actually weighs 240lbs. The last thing we need is another kid with CB's frame

Or

Devin Harris, No question in my mind...he made wisconsin what they were. He will develop into a very good NBA player.


----------



## FanOfAll8472

If Felton comes out, I'm a bit biased and would want him. He is the most *pure point guard* in today's game, although Paul, Nelson, Gordon, and debately, Telfair and Livingston (if they come out) are slightly above him. If you guys want a pass first point guard, Felton should be given more credit than he has been on this board.

To make some predictions though, I think Felton and Paul are staying in school. That "leaves" Livingston, Telfair, Gordon, Nelson, and Harris. I have a feeling that if we're 8-10, Livingston and Telfair will be gone, leaving us with the college points. Gordon is an outstanding guard and scorer, but personally I think we'd be better off with a distributing point guard. Nelson and and Harris aren’t exactly pure distributors, but they’re not too far off. I would be very satisfied with either...they're good scorers, good rebounders, good passers, excellent defenders, but most of all, great leaders and clutch players. Harris is known as a top character guy who is very coachable and we all know about Nelson.


----------



## Mr_B

this year draft is pretty weak its full of undersized big men and unproven players ..and nelson ain't gonna slip 8-10 so I would trade the pick for a proven PG or C but center should be #1 on the raptors list


----------



## FanOfAll8472

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> this year draft is pretty weak its full of undersized big men and unproven players ..and nelson ain't gonna slip 8-10 so I would trade the pick for a proven PG or C but center should be #1 on the raptors list


Nelson will almost certainly be there with this year's great PG class....even without the likes of Telfair and Livingston, there's a good chance Nelson will be still be there, since teams these days prefer to draft players with a sky-high potential in the top 10. I agree that center should be #1 on the Raptors list, but there are so many european big men who have the word "potential" tatooed all over their scouting reports. who knows how long they'll take to develop...


----------



## xpossey

I would take Pavel Podkolzine if his still available if not I would take Ben Gordon over Jameer Nelson.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

Biedrins does need to put on weight but he's the guy i really want to fall. he does have a great bball frame despite having just turned 18. great scoring, rebounding, and shotblocking instincts and skills. i want him more than one of the point guards as he completes our roster much more (as he develops). 

will he be available? hard to say...

i'm really just not that fond of drafting undersized point guards with lottery picks. they are risky despite their skills. are they going to come in and be better than a guy with a couple years of experience behind him like earl watson? who knows...

so yeah, i'll "stay the course" and take biedrins. sign Traylor, Rodney White, and Earl Watson (obviously not an easy accomplishment to get all three). as we get better we can get a pretty good point guard with a lower pick.

JR/Watson
VC/AW
White/Mo pete
Bosh/Marshall
Biedrins/Traylor

going with a 19 year old center again could mean another trip to the lottery but suddenly we're stocked with twin towers full of potential.


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>FanOfAll8472</b>!
> 
> #1 on the Raptors list, but there are so many european big men who have the word "potential" tatooed all over their scouting reports. who knows how long they'll take to develop...


exactly thats the key word "potential" but think.....how many european big men you see in the NBA that are stars



and I think nelson gonna go top 5


----------



## :TorontoRaptors:

1. Ben Gordon - In my books, he's a sure thing. Great shooter, terrific defensive player, has the speed, can make great passes, good under pressure. Player comparison: Baron Davis.

2. Kosta Perovic - 7'2, 240 centre... Zyrdunas Ilgauskas upside... EXACTLY what the Raptors need.

3. Sebastien Telfair - His freaky athleticism... if he's anything like his cousin, he's going to be a steal at the 8th, 9th, or 10th pick.


----------



## Goku

I want Ben Gordon. To me he looks like he has more 'star' in him than the other points. Harris looked good too.

Of the guys I've never seen, Josh Smith sounds the best. Then Telfair I guess. I like the guys with vast potential better than the 'solid player. does a lot of things well' types.


----------



## Mr_B

european big men are a no no


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>:TorontoRaptors:</b>!
> 
> 3. Sebastien Telfair - His freaky athleticism... if he's anything like his cousin, he's going to be a steal at the 8th, 9th, or 10th pick.


i've heard that "freaky athleticism" is something that telfair is lacking to some extent. he's certainly no steve francis.


----------



## FanOfAll8472

well telfair is definitely up there with paul and felton as the most pure points in this coming draft...he's not as athletic as say, gordon, but he is a burner and very quick.


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> Ben Gordan played great against Alabama.
> 
> Emeka Okafor is just a MONSTER on the defensive end.
> 
> 
> 
> UCONN is just dominating the competition.


yeaaaaaaa but if I was GM I woulden't draft Okafor


----------



## lucky777s

My ranking of PG's goes:

Gordon
Harris
Nelson
then the HS kids

You need some maturity at the point. Look how long it took guys like Marbury and Nash to become leaders on the court.

Impossible to rank the big men. If there were any good NBA C's in the draft they would be consensus number 1 pick. Purely guesswork on the potential to star in the NBA.

Do you take a C with an NBA body like Pavel, but who has little experience and knowledge of the game?

Or do you take a skinny C like Martynus who has great skill and has been learning from Sabonis overseas?

I think you have to take the skill. Lots of guys just never develop a feel for the game. You need players first, physiques second.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

all you people want Ben Gordon, but he is not at all what we need.

do we need a Gilbert Arenas type player, when we could pick up a pure point guard like Livingston, Telfair, Nelson, and possibly Felton, or Paul? we don't need a combo guard, we need a distributor. out of those pure points, Nelson, Felton and Paul would fit in with our system best because there both excellent defenders and have high bball IQ and court vision. haven't seen Telfair or Livingston much so i can't comment on there games.

so maybe something like this... sign Dale Davis, and Eric Williams .. draft Telfair, and Robert Swift..

Alvin/Telfair
Vince/Mo-Pete
Rose/Williams
Bosh/Donny
Davis/Swift

_OR_

wouldn't mind picking up a big man in the first round, then grabbing one of the many available points that will be in the second round. 

assuming we don't get lucky and win the lottery..we should take a long look at Biedrins, Pavel, and Perovic. all three are very young international prospects, and could even end up starting for us. wouldn't really mind either of them, but i think i'd take Pavel..not sure.

so..sign Greg Ostertag and Troy Hudson..and draft Pavel, and Romain Sato..

Hudson/Alvin
Vince/Sato
Rose/Mo-Pete
Bosh/Donny
Pavel/Ostertag

_OR..even_

we could maybe think of drafting a swingman, but i doubt it will ever come down to this. this is almost the last case scenario if we feel nothing better is left.

a lot of atheltic guys that would compliment VC/Bosh a lot that could go around where we could pick like like Josh Smith, Iguodala, Childress, or Warrick. 

so.. sign Etan Thomas and Traylor.. and draft Josh Smith and Chris Duhon..

Rose/Duhon
Vince/Alvin
Smith/Mo-Pete
Bosh/Donny
Etan/Traylor

a lot of options..and shouldn't this go in the draft threaD?


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> european big men are a no no


international big men are the way of the future.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

i really wish we had our own second rounder...then guys like swift and sato might be more of a reality.


----------



## Goku

But Gordon looks like more than just an Arenas 'type'. He actually looks like he'll become as good as Arenas. Possibly closer to Baron Davis. I don't know that you can pass on a guy like that. He just looks special. The other ones don't. At least not like Gordon does.

I don't like the combo tag (which some have questioned, including the great and mighty Prerak Shah of draftcity) and management will have to think long and hard on it, but if the other's don't have that same 'star' quality (maybe they do. I don't think so, but what do I know), I'd much rather take Gordon. We still have Rose and Vince here for a while. And Arenas on our team would be sick anyways.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

yeah, gordon gets my vote of the college points and i think would fit in very well. with the way that Vince and Jalen can pass and create plays, a point guard that can score off the pass and create off the bounce seems ideal. i think he also has the best size at 6'1 or so (should be listed at 6'2 in the nba). he looks like the real deal and definitely looks like a guy that could be ROY on the right team.

and if he turns out to be like arenas i'll be jumping for joy. can you say best backcourt in the league?


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> yeaaaaaaa but if I was GM I woulden't draft Okafor


A tandom of Okafor and BOSH would make a awesome frontcourt. Both will complement each other very well.



If Chris Paul, Sabastien Telfair gets picked b4 us, then I would give a LONG hard look at Ben Gordan. I know some ppl dont think Ben Gordan isnt the right fit on this team. But this guy has star potential, you cant just pass him up cause' he might not fit. Look at Miami, I thought they should of picked Chris Kaman cause' they need a BIG MAN, instead they picked a combo guard 'Dwayne Wade' and he was a fantastic pick for the Miami Heat. Toronto is in the same situation as Miami (last year). SO the question for the Raptors is: Do you go for a Dwayne Wade or a Chris Kaman or TJ Ford type this year?


----------



## butr

Have you guys noticed that every year, a team against the luxury tax will trade their late 1st rounder for a 2nd rounder because the 2nd rounders don't have to be signed and thus they save $.

I don't know why GG has never tried this. I think a guy like Chris Duhon, projected to go 2nd round will go late 1st like Dahntay went to Memphis last year. 

He has unbeleivable intangibles. Leadership. Plays great D. Hits the open J and looks for his teammates first. I'm not saying he is a career starter but a guy that could give 20 quality minutes. 

If you get him with a 2nd and he turns out well, you could lose him after 2 years like Arenas or Okur in Det. this year. If you get him with a 1st and he does not pan out you keep him for 3 years max at a relative pitance. 

A good way to get a good player cheap.

___________________

I really think Ben Gordon is explosive but If the core stays I don't know that we need a score first combo guard. But he might be the best talent available.

I think Jameer is the best pure point to come out. Paul should stay in school to get stronger. He looks very slight despite his talent. He will be great though.

_____________

I would not touch Okafor with a ten foot pole. He is a talent but for a guy that young to be having such back problems is an awful risk for a #1 or #2 pick. His injury will be exacerbated by the much longer schedule and more physical competition.

I would either trade down or take Howard in those spots.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

well it's not like we don't need help scoring the ball. gordon takes good shots and on this team he wouldn't have to force much. gordon makes 3s at 43%, giving us another guy that you can't leave to double vince. and oh so athletic, gotta love that.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> well it's not like we don't need help scoring the ball. gordon takes good shots and on this team he wouldn't have to force much. gordon makes 3s at 43%, giving us another guy that you can't leave to double vince. and oh so athletic, gotta love that.


Hey I would be really happy with either. I think its more of a style of play thing for the GM. I love that they rebound well too.


----------



## FanOfAll8472

I would absolutely love Gordon too, but again, I feel a distributing point would be better for this time than a combo guard.

But on the topic of Euro big men, another interesting one is Perovic.


----------



## Sánchez AF

> I would absolutely love Gordon too, but again, I feel a distributing point would be better for this time than a combo guard.


not really

if gordon develop into a francis or b. davis type player could be great plus we have players who can average 5+ apg (rose and carter


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> 
> 
> A tandom of Okafor and BOSH would make a awesome frontcourt. Both will complement each other very well.


I woulden't draft Okafor for a number of reasons

#1 hes looking like a beast out there but keep in mind hes a man amoung boys he can push around anyone he wants out there cuz most of his opponets are toothpicks won't be able to do that in the NBA

#2hes undersized for a center Okafor only 6'9 in the NBA he would be an PF at best he would get pushed around by the likes of Martain,Ratliff,illgaskus(sp) the avg NBA center

#3 his injury...is back has gotten to the point where it shooting down to his hands is similar to what T-mac going through from what I hear that kind of injury could take anywhere from 6 months-1 year to fully heal and that if he doesen't re-injure it in that time frame and I'am not willing to deal with that if I draft him it most def a risk


----------



## Sánchez AF

> #3 his injury...is back has gotten to the point where it shooting down to his hands is similar to what T-mac going through from what I hear that kind of injury could take anywhere from 6 months-1 year to fully heal and that if he doesen't re-injure it in that time frame and I'am not willing to deal with that if I draft him it most def a risk


:yes:


----------



## trick

> #1 hes looking like a beast out there but keep in mind hes a man amoung boys he can push around anyone he wants out there cuz most of his opponets are toothpicks won't be able to do that in the NBA


and? he's dominating in the NCAA only because his skills have are passed the collegiate level to the point it's ready to be tested onto the NBA level.



> #2hes undersized for a center Okafor only 6'9 in the NBA he would be an PF at best he would get pushed around by the likes of Martain,Ratliff,illgaskus(sp) the avg NBA center


he blocks like a C
he rebounds like a C
he scores like a C
i don't know about you, but to me that just qualifies as a C.
alonzo is around the 6-9, 6-10 range, don't tell me you wouldn't play him as a C in your time if he was healthy.



> injury...is back has gotten to the point where it shooting down to his hands is similar to what T-mac going through from what I hear that kind of injury could take anywhere from 6 months-1 year to fully heal and that if he doesen't re-injure it in that time frame and I'am not willing to deal with that if I draft him it most def a risk


Baron Davis tore up his ACL before the draft...but look how well he's turned out now.

give him time to go under an NBA training regimen and his back will strengthen and improve.


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Baron Davis tore up his ACL before the draft...but look how well he's turned out now.
> 
> give him time to go under an NBA training regimen and his back will strengthen and improve.


and back injury is much worse than ACL an acl can heal with time but with a back its a different story the littlest things could re agrvate it such as weight lifting,running,jumping, any solid movement and its already shooting to his hands how long till it shoots to his knees and neck ..keep in mind along with T-mac Pippen went through the same problem in the 98 finals and did you see him play every jumper he took resulted in some sort of pain.and Okafor plays a position where alot of physical play goes on...think about it


----------



## trick

i think an NBA regimen type of training could lessen the effect of his injury.

i'm not saying it's ever going to go away forever, but it won't act up to a point of Chandler's status where he'd be out for long periods of stretches.


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> he blocks like a C
> he rebounds like a C
> he scores like a C
> i don't know about you, but to me that just qualifies as a C.
> alonzo is around the 6-9, 6-10 range, don't tell me you wouldn't play him as a C in your time if he was healthy.


and how many 6-9 centers you see in the NBA putting up big numbers?.....players like alonzo don't comealong to often okafor a PF at best


----------



## trick

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> and how many 6-9 centers you see in the NBA putting up big numbers?.....players like alonzo don't comealong to often okafor a PF at best


how bout AD? his best season was playing as a C and he did a pretty good job there too.

piont is, size doesn't dicatate as much as some may think. does it matter? yes. but who would you rather have as a center...Dirk Nowitzki or Emeka Okaor? who's game is more polished for that position?

it's not like Emeka is 6-7 or anything, 6-9 and up is adequate size for a palyer to play C nowaday in the NBA.


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> and? he's dominating in the NCAA only because his skills have are passed the collegiate level to the point it's ready to be tested onto the NBA level.
> 
> .


like I said before hes playing with boys out there who weigh like 180 the way he pushes guys in the NCAA he won't get away with in the NBA okafor avg at best in the NBA


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> how bout AD? his best season was playing as a C and he did a pretty good job there too.


yea but davis is naturaly a PF who *****ed about playing C also davis plays in the east and theres not many big men over there and add to the fact davis had players to take the attention off of of him tell me is davis puttin up the same numbers over in chicago?


----------



## trick

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> like I said before hes playing with boys out there who weigh like 180 the way he pushes guys in the NCAA he won't get away with in the NBA okafor avg at best in the NBA


that's a really flawed mentality.
Emeka is not a good player in the NCAA, he's a *dominate* plyaer. and it doesn't matter if he's playing against boys, the fact is that he's having their way with them, so much that his skills are no competition in the NCAA anymore. 

given time and experience you doubt he'll have an impact in the NBA? by his rookie year he prolly won't put up Lebron type numbers (who else has), but he will be a good player someday.


----------



## trick

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> yea but davis is naturaly a PF who *****ed about playing C also davis plays in the east and theres not many big men over there and add to the fact davis had players to take the attention off of of him tell me is davis puttin up the same numbers over in chicago?


tell me how old Davis is again? tell me he didn't lead the raps to a playoff berth without VC?


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> tell me how old Davis is again? tell me he didn't lead the raps to a playoff berth without VC?


point being?.....his age don't make that much of a difference cuz he still plays the game at the same pace & level as he did in toronto and toronto making the playoffs that year was a total team effort


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> that's a really flawed mentality.
> Emeka is not a good player in the NCAA, he's a *dominate* plyaer. and it doesn't matter if he's playing against boys, the fact is that he's having their way with them, so much that his skills are no competition in the NCAA anymore.
> 
> given time and experience you doubt he'll have an impact in the NBA? by his rookie year he prolly won't put up Lebron type numbers (who else has), but he will be a good player someday.


I remember ppl said the same thing about brendan haywood & Kawyme brown


----------



## trick

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> point being?.....his age don't make that much of a difference cuz he still plays the game at the same pace & level as he did in toronto and toronto making the playoffs that year was a total team effort


so you don't think AD has slowed down due to his age and that he's the same player as he was 2 years ago? 



> I remember ppl said the same thing about brendan haywood & Kawyme brown


so you're comparing Emeka to Brown and Haywood?

Emeka has got more smarts and skills than these two, believe that. Okafor's a proven leader and is a very adaptable player.

can you say the same thing about Brown and Haywood?


----------



## Mr_B

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so you're comparing Emeka to Brown and Haywood?


yup both there game was similar to emeka at the time now if I'am wrong I'am wrong but I ain't sold on ekafor game & injury quite yet ..and davis is the same player from 2 years ago


----------



## SkywalkerAC

Haywood never really dominated in the NCAA and wasn't picked that high because of it. 

okafor will come in and put up good numbers, probably almost every game. he can play center but that isn't his ideal position, just like bosh. however, a 4/5 combo of bosh and okafor would be amazing a few years down the road, both need to get bigger (although okafor is already VERY strong).


----------



## macro6

If we got Emeka, Emeka would play Centre but I think with BOSH stronger next season, he will be able to guard to faster Centres while Emeka would guard the stronger centre.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> and back injury is much worse than ACL an acl can heal with time but with a back its a different story the littlest things could re agrvate it such as weight lifting,running,jumping, any solid movement and its already shooting to his hands how long till it shoots to his knees and neck


:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:


----------



## bigbabyjesus

all this talk about not picking Okafor because of his back problems is stupid.

i think he's really going to be a superstar. i know if we had the first pick in the draft GG would pick Okafor, because we need help now, and he can come in and play the 5 spot. a lot of fans would appreciate that more than drafting Howard, especially impatient ones.

i think Okafor, is even stronger than he looks. his arms aren't even that big, but he's just so strong. though the competition in the paint in college isn't even close to the nba, he's shot down some of the superstars in the NCAA and just dominates every night.

i still would really be tempted to draft Howard though. at this point i think i would. having the #2 pick would be a much easier decision.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> all this talk about not picking Okafor because of his back problems is stupid.
> 
> i think he's really going to be a superstar. i know if we had the first pick in the draft GG would pick Okafor, because we need help now, and he can come in and play the 5 spot. a lot of fans would appreciate that more than drafting Howard, especially impatient ones.
> 
> i think Okafor, is even stronger than he looks. his arms aren't even that big, but he's just so strong. though the competition in the paint in college isn't even close to the nba, he's shot down some of the superstars in the NCAA and just dominates every night.
> 
> i still would really be tempted to draft Howard though. at this point i think i would. having the #2 pick would be a much easier decision.


Until you have experienced back problems you don't know how debilitating it can be. Without the problems, I think he is #1 without question. I would need a team of back specialists to tell me he will be 100% and will not miss games and that this thing can truly heal. If it can - #1.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> Until you have experienced back problems you don't know how debilitating it can be. Without the problems, I think he is #1 without question. I would need a team of back specialists to tell me he will be 100% and will not miss games and that this thing can truly heal. If it can - #1.


well he claims it feels close to 100% at this point, and that's at the very end of his season. that doesn't mean that it's not a risk, it just shows that this is not a career threatening problem at this point in time.


----------



## RapsFan

Let's see, 6'9-10" centers that play pretty well:


Brian Grant
Kurt Thomas (not this year, but has in the past)
Theo Ratliff
Aaron Williams
Brian Skinner
Etan Thomas
Oliver Miller
Adonal Foyle
and Amare Stoudemire even plays minutes at center for the Suns too, and that is in the West. 

You may say that all these are undersized centers and are actually PF's who just play center. Well, the matter of the fact is that they do play center and do pretty well, and are better than a lot of the 7 footers who should be able to mandandle them. 

Let me ask you Mr. B, would you rather have Emeka Okafor as your center, or Jerome James? James after all has a 30 pound advantage over a lot of the players he faces, so he is a superman playing with men. He should be able to dominate like Okafor does college right? He gets 5.0 ppg and 3.5 rpg, athough I am probably missing something.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

okafor might be a tiny bit shorter than theo but it's still a good comparison to talk about. theo is not what i'd call a great player by any means but he's an above average center in the nba. okafor will step into the nba and be better, probably from day 1. 

okafor, despite some minor back problems, is a physical specimen. he's also a very hard worker and driven to be one of the best. everything that an nba center has to do, he can do. if he has to get bigger, he'll get bigger. he'll also do whatever it takes, right now, to ensure he goes into the nba healthy and ready to play.

we've watched bosh, EXTREMELY undersized, hang with the big boys all season by playing smart, athletic defense. okafor has so much more upper body strength it's not even funny. he is likely going to be one of the league leaders in block shots...NEXT YEAR!

okafor also has plenty of potential. with his kind of mobility and athleticism he'll continue refining his game for years. no, he doesn't quite have david robinson's size, but he has the potential to be a similar kind of player. 

as much as i want a huge potential player, a player that can step in and play, as bosh as done, is definitely a priority in this draft.


----------



## macro6

Bosh and Okafor togather is :drool: 

We'll one of the best defensive front courts in the NBA. Okafor and Bosh are the next Ben Wallace/Rasheed Wallace but better


----------



## derzo

> Originally posted by <b>RapsFan</b>!
> Let's see, 6'9-10" centers that play pretty well:
> 
> 
> Brian Grant
> Kurt Thomas (not this year, but has in the past)
> Theo Ratliff
> Aaron Williams
> Brian Skinner
> Etan Thomas
> Oliver Miller
> Adonal Foyle
> and Amare Stoudemire even plays minutes at center for the Suns too, and that is in the West.
> 
> You may say that all these are undersized centers and are actually PF's who just play center. Well, the matter of the fact is that they do play center and do pretty well, and are better than a lot of the 7 footers who should be able to mandandle them.
> 
> Let me ask you Mr. B, would you rather have Emeka Okafor as your center, or Jerome James? James after all has a 30 pound advantage over a lot of the players he faces, so he is a superman playing with men. He should be able to dominate like Okafor does college right? He gets 5.0 ppg and 3.5 rpg, athough I am probably missing something.


But would you take any of those players listed above with the first overall pick?


----------



## FanOfAll8472

> Originally posted by <b>derzo</b>!
> But would you take any of those players listed above with the first overall pick?


that's not the point, is it? none of those guys have the talent okafor does, except for amare. the point was to show that guys around 6'10" can play center in this league. it depends on how strong you are, not how tall you are. okafor is 6'9", very strong at the upper body, 250 lbs, great hops, great timing, very intelligent, used to playing center, very good man up defender also, strong rebounder, bull-like post moves. he can play center in the pros.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

the center market is looking pretty damn good this year if all these guys declare:

Okafor (i put him on here because he'll likely have to play beside a power forward on most teams except chicago).
Vicius (good chance he won't come out though)
Biedrins
Pavel
Perovic (might not come out if he's not a top pick)
Ha Seung-Jin (could make a bigtime jump if he works out well after all his recent training)
Arujao

Who knows? maybe Ha will be our guy


----------



## Matthew Maurer

I honestly don't know if Biedrins can play the center position at this point in his career. When I watch him him looks like more of a power forward. Although if he fills out I can see him playing there.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> the center market is looking pretty damn good this year if all these guys declare:
> 
> Okafor (i put him on here because he'll likely have to play beside a power forward on most teams except chicago).
> Vicius (good chance he won't come out though)
> Biedrins
> Pavel
> Perovic (might not come out if he's not a top pick)
> Ha Seung-Jin (could make a bigtime jump if he works out well after all his recent training)
> Arujao
> 
> Who knows? maybe Ha will be our guy


All except Arajuo will take time to develop. Ha and Pavel = stiffs. Okafor is not a true center so I exclude him.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> All except Arajuo will take time to develop. Ha and Pavel = stiffs. Okafor is not a true center so I exclude him.


i think it's a little unfair to call Ha and Pavel stiffs at this point. both are huge but have good mobility. pavel may not have great basketball instincts yet but he's only 19. Ha is very intrigueing to me, training with SFX for some time now he should come in with good footspeed and strength. if Pavel slips to our position, i think we should probably take him.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> 
> i think it's a little unfair to call Ha and Pavel stiffs at this point. both are huge but have good mobility. pavel may not have great basketball instincts yet but he's only 19. Ha is very intrigueing to me, training with SFX for some time now he should come in with good footspeed and strength. if Pavel slips to our position, i think we should probably take him.


I just think of guys like Manute Bol and Muresan who were in the league b/c they were tall and that's it. Pavel seems only to get boards by luck: they come to him. No O but put backs. 

I'm pretty sure this thing is will be blown up, whether others here do or not that's fine. I think I would try for someone with natural skill. Martynas this year or next and maybe Kosta. After that I think Araujo in the mid rounds would be by far a more useful selection. Never forget Alek Radojevic. GG and Butch loved his private workout, now where is he?

It says a lot that no one would guarantee Pavel a selection last year. 7-5 300 lb with mobility does not come around every year.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

no one would guarantee pavel a lottery pick but i don't see him dropping past 10 or so, even in last year's stacked draft.


----------



## madman

*Sebastian Telfair*

Did he actually commit to Louisville??If he has can he still enter the draft?

Sebasian Telefair


----------



## SkywalkerAC

*Re: Sebastian Telfair*



> Originally posted by <b>madman</b>!
> Did he actually commit to Louisville??If he has can he still enter the draft?
> 
> Sebasian Telefair


yeah, he is likely still coming out.


----------



## TRON

Has anyone actually seen Pavel play to give an opinion on his game? please no scouting reports I've read them all


----------



## trick

not sold on Pavel yet.

at this point, he's just a more athletic Shawn Bradley to me.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> no one would guarantee pavel a lottery pick but i don't see him dropping past 10 or so, even in last year's stacked draft.


I understand what you are saying but given the premium on size and height in this league if a centre this big is not worth taking top 3 then he is probably not worth 8 to 10. Would you rather have a Shawn Bradley or a Baron Davis?

The Yao's, Shaq's, Robinson and Duncans of this world go #1. I would not waste a lottery pick on a Pavel type when there will be much better pound for pound players out there.

Would you like Alek Radojevic or a shot at Ron Artest or Corey Maggette. I know what I would pick.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

for those of you interested in watching the high school guys play, i was looking at my guide for digital cable, and Raptors TV is showing the high school all-star game on thursday at 1, friday at 3:30, and they repeat it a bunch of times over the weekend.

don't think there showing hoops summit though, maybe they are i just didn't check hard enough. it's on sunday right?

i've only really seen Telfair out of all the high school guys, if you don't include clips. even though it's an all-star game and no one will really play defense, i really want to see what these guys can do.


----------



## Goku

Pavel looks pretty good to me. I think he'll be in the top 10. The video of his workout with Miami last draft was incredibly impressive. He moves at least as well as Yao does, probably better. He hasn't progressed as quickly overseas as people hoped, but the potential he holds is still enormous. I think he actually might be the premier 'potential' guy in this draft.

Mark Eaton was an auto mechanic who had to be talked into even going to play college ball, and had little skill other than his height. But he worked on it. I think Pavel could very well have a Mark Eaton career ahead of him if things fall into place, regardless of his present smarts. It's obviously a gamble, but the upside is high enough that he deserves his top 10 status IMO.

Olajuwon, when asked who the toughest center he played was between Shaq, Kareem, Gilmore and Walton said Mark Eaton. He said he could never get his shot off over top Eaton. He was simply too big. If Pavel can be worked into the right system, I think he could be enormously successful. Yao size guys who can move that well are rare. I doubt we see this much physical talent anytime soon. He really is a premier physical specimen. Much moreso than Rado ever was or Bradley or Muresan. He moves REALLY well. 

all that said, I want no part of him. We can't afford to gamble right now.


----------



## Goku

"...Eaton had little going for him other than height when he entered the league in 1982"

"He wound winning Defensive Player of the Year awards in 1985 and 1989. He was also named to the NBA All-Defensive team three times, was second team two more times, and set the single seaon record for blocks averaging 5.6"

But I still want no part of him. Bring on Gordon.

also, I am glad they are putting that highschool game on. Hopefully Swift and Livingston show up.

also, ESPN is putting the dunk contest on that the girl won. (over Josh Smith lol. I guarantee its all jokes, but it will be interesting. I think her signature dunk was a dee brown hand-over-the eyes. I really want to what kind of hops Josh has. There is a chance he could be another guy who slips. His stock is supposedly dropping)


----------



## macro6

Pavel is waaay to0 risky. I would stay away from him at all cost, same for Ivan Chariav.

If were gonna pick a Centre, we should look at Biedrins, Kosta.P, Vicious, and Okafor.

And if we do go big, we should take a look at PG - Lionnal Chalmers. He played very well for Xavier. Hes gonna be a sleeper.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> I understand what you are saying but given the premium on size and height in this league if a centre this big is not worth taking top 3 then he is probably not worth 8 to 10. Would you rather have a Shawn Bradley or a Baron Davis?
> 
> The Yao's, Shaq's, Robinson and Duncans of this world go #1. I would not waste a lottery pick on a Pavel type when there will be much better pound for pound players out there.
> 
> Would you like Alek Radojevic or a shot at Ron Artest or Corey Maggette. I know what I would pick.


radojevic probably would have developed into a fine nba center if not for his back problems. the fact is that we need a center, great or not, that can hold his own in the paint. pavel is a prospect like few others that have come before him. no, he's not going to be yao ming but he could be quite a bit better than bradley and that alone gives him a lot of potential. 

you keep wanting to trade vince for a center. how do you propose we do that? do you actually think we have a shot at a player of yao's calibe? of course not. 

pavel is a player that we could build the best D in the nba around. with KO at the helm, i think he'd have us up there next year. Pavel is going to be able to finish in the paint, he is going to be power dunking on people, he is going to have a high, virtually unblockable release. 

i think pavel would fit in toronto. he'd be a new attraction for the raptors. he, maybe more than any other player in the draft, has the potential to make us a contender.

Jalen/Alvin/Junior (or Dooling)/Strickland
Vince/Mo Pete
Rodney White/Donnel Harvey
Bosh/Marshall/Bonner
Pavel/Traylor/(Bosh)

I think that's a lineup that has the potential to make a lot of noise in the east. it's also the kind of lineup that dispels any kind of necessity to trade Vince.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>Goku</b>!
> "...Eaton had little going for him other than height when he entered the league in 1982"
> 
> "He wound winning Defensive Player of the Year awards in 1985 and 1989. He was also named to the NBA All-Defensive team three times, was second team two more times, and set the single seaon record for blocks averaging 5.6"
> 
> But I still want no part of him. Bring on Gordon.
> 
> also, I am glad they are putting that highschool game on. Hopefully Swift and Livingston show up.
> 
> also, ESPN is putting the dunk contest on that the girl won. (over Josh Smith lol. I guarantee its all jokes, but it will be interesting. I think her signature dunk was a dee brown hand-over-the eyes. I really want to what kind of hops Josh has. There is a chance he could be another guy who slips. His stock is supposedly dropping)


definitely. i honestly don't know if many of these teams want a skinny highschooler with all the bigs on the board. i'd love to see him on the raptors.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> you keep wanting to trade vince for a center. how do you propose we do that? do you actually think we have a shot at a player of yao's calibe? of course not.


I do? I don't recall that. If you trade VC its not for a center. Its for a lot of young things, players and picks. Its a redo.

My point was, go over the last several years. Are there any real contibutors at center outside the top 3 picks? Maybe serviceable ones but not high level ones. I would rather get the best player available at our spot.

I don't mind getting a serviceable centre, just not at 8 in this draft unless all others that are coveted are gone.

I'm not saying we could get a Yao. What I'm saying is that if Pavel was a significant prospect with upside, as a 7-5 centre, why is a 6-6 highschool PG who is as skinny as a bean pole projected to go 3 or 4?


----------



## SkywalkerAC

i do know what you mean. even when bigs go number 1 or 2 they're a big risk (see kandi). i don't really think that pavel is going to slip to 8 anyways but my point was that you can't base your decision entirely on precident. i predict pavel will go in the top 5.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> i do know what you mean. even when bigs go number 1 or 2 they're a big risk (see kandi


Exactly. 

You mentioned Alek's back. I think that is a huge part of the choice to take a C. These guys are so fragile at times, you really must believe in him or it can be a huge bust. I would only overlook this part of the equation for Yao-esque talent. Without it he must be a brick house.

I hope he does go top 5. I really hope all the Euros do a 'skita. We will get our Amare at 8.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

it's impossible to tell how scouts view pavel. he has had some impressive games since they were wowed by him before last draft. he IS a brick house. compared to all of the players in the history of the nba close to his height, he looks the LEAST fragile (although yao is a monster as well). i really don't see him dropping out of the top 5. the realistic question should then be, if we won the third pick, should we draft him? 

i can't say. i think scouts might have a fairly good idea though.


----------



## Goku

The highschool game is on Raps TV right now if anyone is still up.

Dwight Howard is seriously talented. I don't think he is big enough to even think about playing center though (he looks smaller than 250lbs. If he is, then Kwame is 300) But still.......wow. Athletic, but still smooth. He looks serious

Josh Smith looks good too. It's just a meaningless game where nobody plays D, but it's easy to see why scouts are high on him. 

Telfair looks fast fast fast. 

Livingston looks terrible. Slower than Jalen Rose.

J.R. Smith is an incredible dunker. No idea if he's supposed to be good, but he hops like the other J.R. 
Announcer's say he has around a 44inch vert. I think he does too.


----------



## macro6

Heres a good article bout' Andris Biedrins  

and other international prospects.


----------



## Slasher

JR Smith has amazing range.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> it's impossible to tell how scouts view pavel. he has had some impressive games since they were wowed by him before last draft. he IS a brick house. compared to all of the players in the history of the nba close to his height, he looks the LEAST fragile (although yao is a monster as well). i really don't see him dropping out of the top 5. the realistic question should then be, if we won the third pick, should we draft him?
> 
> i can't say. i think scouts might have a fairly good idea though.


Check out draftcity's playbyplay of 2 of Pavel's games. If you are confident enough in his health, OK. But you will have to wait 5 years before he develops any kind of instincts and IQ for the game because right now he has none, and does not seem overly co-ordinated.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>Slasher</b>!
> JR Smith has amazing range.


That was nuts!


----------



## macro6

Wow.. Okafor is just a beast.

I'm just in awe of his shot blocking ability.


----------



## madman

did okafour get hurt tonight?


----------



## bigbabyjesus

mcdonalds all-star game analysis. i'm only going to do the guys that are probably going to jump.

Dwight Howard showed some terrific perimeter skills and athleticism. i think he is definetly the only one that played in this game, that looks even close to being ready for the league. very smart player, and fundamentally sound. his post game needs work though.

Shaun Livingston showed great court vision and flair in his game. people say he's not a true PG because he's 6'7, but he really is. his game is so raw, and he needs to put on a ton of weight. his shot looks really nonexistent right now. if he goes to the league next year he is going to get beat up so much it would be scary. REALLY needs to go to college. the skills are there, he just needs to refine and develop them.

Robert Swift got off to a very good start. despite his thin frame, he is very aggressive on both ends. he's a very gifted athlete and showed his shot blocking ability. also seems like a good guy, said he wanted to bulk up to 260, to add some much needed upper body strength. he's going to the league, and his stock really went up IMO.

Josh Smith showed his freakish athelticism. but he didn't get as much court time as i'd like to see. he has great size, and is not as raw as a lot of scouts have been saying. showed good touch from the outside, and had some flashses of greatness. if he got more time i think theres no doubt he would have shined.

Sebastian Telfair played great IMO. he just showed flawless court vision and passing skills, and is really unselfish. 11 assists with only 2 shot attempts. though the jumper is not there, he is so quick he could easily penetrate to the basket and score. he also showed that he's a tenacious defender. needs to go to college, but won't. i think he'll have the same impact as TJ Ford, and thats saying a lot since Ford is many years older.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> Wow.. Okafor is just a beast.
> 
> I'm just in awe of his shot blocking ability.


I still think he is theo Ratliff with a decent jump hook. Theo too has great blocking ability, no durability, and no FT%. The latter 2 will show once he gets to the NBA. Look at meka's legs man. Toothpicks. He'll have Camby-esque rookie and soph seasons.


----------



## FanOfAll8472

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> mcdonalds all-star game analysis. i'm only going to do the guys that are probably going to jump.
> 
> Dwight Howard showed some terrific perimeter skills and athleticism. i think he is definetly the only one that played in this game, that looks even close to being ready for the league. very smart player, and fundamentally sound. his post game needs work though.
> 
> Shaun Livingston showed great court vision and flair in his game. people say he's not a true PG because he's 6'7, but he really is. his game is so raw, and he needs to put on a ton of weight. his shot looks really nonexistent right now. if he goes to the league next year he is going to get beat up so much it would be scary. REALLY needs to go to college. the skills are there, he just needs to refine and develop them.
> 
> Robert Swift got off to a very good start. despite his thin frame, he is very aggressive on both ends. he's a very gifted athlete and showed his shot blocking ability. also seems like a good guy, said he wanted to bulk up to 260, to add some much needed upper body strength. he's going to the league, and his stock really went up IMO.
> 
> Josh Smith showed his freakish athelticism. but he didn't get as much court time as i'd like to see. he has great size, and is not as raw as a lot of scouts have been saying. showed good touch from the outside, and had some flashses of greatness. if he got more time i think theres no doubt he would have shined.
> 
> Sebastian Telfair played great IMO. he just showed flawless court vision and passing skills, and is really unselfish. 11 assists with only 2 shot attempts. though the jumper is not there, he is so quick he could easily penetrate to the basket and score. he also showed that he's a tenacious defender. needs to go to college, but won't. i think he'll have the same impact as TJ Ford, and thats saying a lot since Ford is many years older.


Hey, thanks for the analysis. I've never doubted Livingston was a point...he's one of those guys you should pair up with Jason Terry or Allen Iverson. I do hope he goes to college to refine his game...especially since most HSers make it off athleticism, something Livingston lacks. I think Telfair can be more successful than Livingston doing a jump from HS to the pros...mostly because he's in the mold of TJ Ford and Raymond Felton where he's such a pure point guard that his vision and passing on the floor help so much, that it sorta makes up for his bad jumpshot.



> I still think he is theo Ratliff with a decent jump hook. Theo too has great blocking ability, no durability, and no FT%. The latter 2 will show once he gets to the NBA. Look at meka's legs man. Toothpicks. He'll have Camby-esque rookie and soph seasons.


Okafor is IMO a better man up defender than Ratliff. But I agree with the other comparions.

Gordon played decent today in the UConn - Duke game. He can really be a scoring point guard in this league IMO...really successful at that too. However, I was suprised by his average at best defense on Duhon. That could use some work...had some turnovers, but played pretty well.


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sebastian Telfair played great IMO. he just showed flawless court vision and passing skills, and is really unselfish. 11 assists with only 2 shot attempts. though the jumper is not there, he is so quick he could easily penetrate to the basket and score. he also showed that he's a tenacious defender. needs to go to college, but won't. i think he'll have the same impact as TJ Ford, and thats saying a lot since Ford is many years older.


Its nice to see Sabastien Telfair play a very unselfish game. Hes a type of PG that would be perfect for the Raptors. But i dunno if 8th overall is too high for Telfair and if we do pick him, is he ready?


----------



## mo76

The Raptors NEED to take BEN GORDAN if he is still available (between 4 and 8). It is a no Brainer. Sure he is not a prototypical PG, but he can flat out play. The announcer in last night's game said that gordon should be be playing point. PLEASE< PLEASE raptors. DRAFT BEN GORDON!!!


----------



## macro6

Ben Gordan stock has risen in this tournament.

Look for the Clippers or Phoenix Suns to take him b4 the Raptors.


----------



## Sánchez AF

bEN GORDON ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡


----------



## mo76

Pavel Podkolziene?????? Is this guy still alive?? He is 7'5, 303. I just wonder if anyone has heard anything about that guy. Last year there was talk of denver taking him instead of melo with 3rd pick (well on the raptors board anyway. lol.)


----------



## macro6

Stay away from PAVEL.

Hes a 7'5 version of Eric Montross.


----------



## trick

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> Stay away from PAVEL.
> 
> Hes a 7'5 version of Eric Montross.


though i would LOVE to have Eric Montross back solving our C problems, i wouldn't wanna waste a high lottery pick for someone similar than him.

:nonono:


----------



## Sánchez AF

i take kosta perovic over pavel


----------



## bigbabyjesus

i really hope Ben Gordon gets taken before us, because i want Telfair way more, and i think he's going to become twice the player down the road. and i know if Gordon's there, the GM will definetly take him over Telfair.

i think its basically like, who would you rather have for this team right now, a Dwyane Wade type player (Ben Gordon), or a TJ Ford type player (Sebastian Telfair). though most of you would say Wade, IMO our team needs a floor general and pure point like Ford much more. 

Telfair is just sick though. he reminds me of Jason Kidd. just UNBELIEVABLE court vision, and passing skills. 

and about all you guys writing Pavel off, i can guarntee half of you haven't seen him play so, don't call him a stiff until you do.


----------



## xpossey

:grinning: :grinning:


----------



## :TorontoRaptors:

My picks...

1. Ben Gordon
2. Devan Harris
3. Sebastien Telfair
4. Kosta Perovic
5. Ivan Chiriaev

Sleepers...

1. LaMarcus Aldridge
2. Robert Swift
3. Roko-Leni Ukic


----------



## FanOfAll8472

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> Ben Gordan stock has risen in this tournament.
> 
> Look for the Clippers or Phoenix Suns to take him b4 the Raptors.


I hear the Clips are all over Telfair. They really want and need a distributing, pure point guard. The Suns don't necessarily need a point either. They have Barbosa and Vujanic who could come over next year. They could use a real center (not power forward-turned centers in McDyess, Amare, and Lampe...nor some crapshoot in Voshkul).

Regarding Livingston, here is an article on him...



> The Bobcats are targeting Shaun Livingston, the wiry 6-6 Peoria, Ill., point guard who starred at this week's all-star game for high school players in Oklahoma. But they believe, as other teams do, that Livingston could be taken at No. 3, after UConn big man Emeka Okafor and Atlanta prep star Dwight Howard.
> 
> Playing in front of numerous team execs, including Pat Riley, Larry Bird, Chris Mullin and Danny Ainge, Livingston probably established himself as the top point-guard prospect, ahead of UConn's Ben Gordon, Wisconsin's Devin Harris and Lincoln's Sebastian Telfair.
> 
> "A lot of teams really like Livingston," said one NBA GM, who attended the practice sessions in Oklahoma. "He can really handle it and he has a lot of upside, but he has a long way to go."
> 
> Livingston dominated Telfair at the practice sessions to the point where one scout, who watched the workouts said, "you can't even put the two in the same sentence."
> 
> Telfair still is rated to go late lottery, meaning anywhere from 10th to 13th overall. He's also being wooed by adidas with a sneaker deal. What can he get? Jay Williams got $1.3 million per when he left Duke in 2002, and he was considered a blue-chipper. Telfair is likely to max out at $2 mil per, for a deal running three to five years, according to industry sources. Although his size is a problem for some GM's who think he should go to Louisville, the sneaker money is reason enough to make the jump to the NBA.
> 
> As much as the scouts like Livingston, who will pass up an offer to play at Duke, they are raving about Gordon, who might go as high as fifth overall. They've heard about his work ethic - he's been known to show up at the gym to shoot at 5 a.m. and return at 10:30 p.m. for more practice - and think his ability to score will translate to the next level.
> 
> "Who wouldn't want a great kid who's shown that he can be an explosive scorer?" said one scout. "People are asking whether he can get the ball to other guys, but that's the only question they have."


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/180227p-156616c.html


----------



## trick

my picks (in order of availability):
1. Emeka Okafor
2. Dwight Howard
3. Andris Biedrins
4. Ben Gordon
5. Devin Harris 

one of them has got to be available at whichever spot we're speaking...hopefully one of the first 2 would be available

sleepers:
1. Rafael Araujo
2. Blake Stepp
3. Romain Sato


----------



## Sánchez AF

> Andris Biedrins


we don't need another PF


----------



## trick

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> 
> 
> we don't need another PF


how do you know that he can't handle playing the C position?

how do you know that Bosh, with more added strength, can not better handle the C position than the way he has now?

how do you know we won't get a bruiser through FA that could handle playing the majority of the C position while Biedrins does back up duties, right until him and Bosh are ready to handle the PF/C positions?

you say we don't need another PF, but you wouldn't mind getting Stromile Swift...

plz dude, you've been on my case all day. don't make me stomp you with bball knowledge.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> sleepers:
> 
> 2. *Blake Stepp*


Oh please no.


----------



## trick

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh please no.


calm down buddy, it's just a guess.

damn, why has alot of ppl been acting like a bunch of asses lately?


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>:TorontoRaptors:</b>!
> My picks...
> 
> 
> Sleepers...
> 
> 
> 3. Roko-Leni Ukic


Croation for bean pole. Not with a ten foot pole.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> calm down buddy, it's just a guess.
> 
> damn, why has alot of ppl been acting like a bunch of asses lately?


Are they sleepers or guesses? Sleeper tells me you like something about him. Not trying to be harsh. Stepp has proven he can't hack the big stage.


----------



## trick

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> Are they sleepers or guesses? Sleeper tells me you like something about him. Not trying to be harsh. Stepp has proven he can't hack the big stage.


i chose 3 candidates for sleepers, and of course not all of them could be right (in fact, all of them are probably wrong), but they're just guesses at who the sleepers might be.

it's all in good fun and i'm not betting anything on those guesses, just sending my considerations on who *I* think the sleepers might be.

so don't go in every thread about how wrong someone else is just because you have a different view of things...

i especially like how you think anyone who doesn't like the idea of complete rebuilding is not very knowledgeable of the NBA and how things work around there. you truly are a class act.


----------



## derzo

Gordan... Gordan... Gordan... Gordan... Gordan... Gordan... Gordan... Gordan... Gordan... Gordan... Gordan... Gordan...

heh. He looked pretty damn good tonight against Georgia. Shot selection might be a little questionable but when its a blowout, whatever.

If we're in the 4-7 range I say we go:
1. Smith
2. Gordan
3. Igoudala

Any later then that and those 3 are gone then:
1. Teflair
2. Perovic
3. Chris Paul


----------



## SkywalkerAC

Ha Seung-Jin might be as good a center prospect as you're likely to ever find at the 8th pick. He has been playing a lot of basketball and should be ready for some NBA minutes, despite coming straight out of high school. obviously i havent watched him play but the raptors need to take a close look at him. over 7'2, over 300 lbs, mobile with skills and a great work ethic= lottery pick. 

this lottery is looking damn strong- at number 8 we've got a great shot at gordon, biedrins, perovic, iguodala. and who knows? maybe we steal Ivan or Ha and come out the victors of the draft.


----------



## RapsFan

blowuptheraptors, I was just wondering who you would like to draft if the new Raptors GM does the same thing that you propose?


----------



## macro6

Theres a "ask Matthew Maurer bout Draft Thread" in the Draft Forum.

Ask away!


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>RapsFan</b>!
> blowuptheraptors, I was just wondering who you would like to draft if the new Raptors GM does the same thing that you propose?


I have that portland plan, which through some discussion seems impossible due to their strategy which I was unaware of. They are becoming fiscally responsible.

I also had a plan involving a 3 way Kobe deal with Seattle as an example.

Anyway, if something like these deals did happen we would have our pick, and at least one pick from others.

If we stay at eight. I like Gordon, Iguodala.

Gordon will be a player. Not a 1 or a 2, just a player. We need players. I think Iguodala can be a defensive stalwart. With time he can develop a J. See Artest. 

I have read a lot on Pavel and don't like him. You can see by my other posts why that is.

If we get lucky and get #1 or #2, I really explore trading down. I started that thread on Okafor being a talent but... 

I have only seen a little on Howard and they are all dunks vs. Highschoolers. I would need to really get into his head to see more Amare than Kwame. If he is Kwame, there are those that will want the pick, let them have it for the right price.

Ideally, either Chi or Orl are at 3 and want to move up. Take the third and pawn off a contract or get a future #1. Take Deng if he declares or Biedrins if not. I have seen Deng a lot (see Avatar) he is underrated by all the Duke haters on the Draft thread. Don't listen to them. They are morons. He will be top 2 next year if he waits till then. Biedrins intrigues me. I would need to see more, but defensively he reminds me of Kirilenko. His O must develop with time.


My other picks depend on where we select. I really like Araujo. If I have one around 17- 23, he would be my guy. He may not be a star but he is pure muscle all over, unlike Okafor. He has nice touch and a great work ethic.

Kris Humphries intrigues me. But I would need to see his SF skills. That's where he would need to play because of his size. ~15.

If Nelson slipped to ~15, he is a Raptor. You all saw him. He showed a lot.

Telfair is the only other highschooler I'd pick. He is 6-0 but has strength already. He will be picked higher than some suggest I think. Someone will take a risk in the top 12. He is up to 182 ibs from the NBAdraft.net weight. 

Livingston will not fill out much, his bones and frame are so slight. I have heard scouts give mixed reviews on Smith. Dunks in a highschool all-star game just don't do it for me.

People say I'm biased. I just say I've seen him a lot, but if I could acquire a late 1st from a team against the tax threshold I get Duhon (if we only got one of Gordon or Nelson). He is not a starter because of his shot but everything else is tops.

I don't like 2nd rounders because if they turn out well you may have to let them go. See Arenas and maybe Okur. I would always try to secure a late 1st from those scared of the tax.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> 
> 
> i chose 3 candidates for sleepers, and of course not all of them could be right (in fact, all of them are probably wrong), but they're just guesses at who the sleepers might be.
> 
> it's all in good fun and i'm not betting anything on those guesses, just sending my considerations on who *I* think the sleepers might be.
> 
> so don't go in every thread about how wrong someone else is just because you have a different view of things...
> 
> i especially like how you think anyone who doesn't like the idea of complete rebuilding is not very knowledgeable of the NBA and how things work around there. you truly are a class act.


I appreciate that. 

Don't take my posts too hard. I'm a p**** if you don't know me. Its my sense of humour. Things don't aways come across thru typing.

I am not trying to say people are wrong. I like discussion. If you like someone, why? If not, why not? Guesses are like pulling numbers out of a hat. If you thought that they were going to do well, I was calling you out on it. Why did you think those guys would do well? 

As for rebuilding. I don't like the idea either. But when you know the constraints of the CBA and the true talent of this team, it is the only way to really get to be one of the top 6-8 teams in the L. It doesn't mean it will happen. It means you will have a better shot than with this core year after year.


----------



## RapsFan

I agree that we need players, not just positional fixes. People get hung up on fixing a position with a player when that draft year or free agent year is not ripe for that position. I admit, I have done this in the past as well. 

However, watching how the teams who are consitently at the top of the league draft, and the free agents they get, it seems to me that the more talent you have, the better. Look at it this way, even if you are so called stacked at a position, if you take the best player you can get, that player or another good player from the same psoition on your team can be traded for equal value at a position of greater need. 

I used to have the problem of just looking at moves one year at a time. We need a PG so we should get a PG this year. We need a C so we should get a C this year. However, if you think more long term and just worry about puttinga talented team on the floor, positions do not need to matter as much. 

People will also say we need to get these problems fixed before Vince gets too old because we need to win while he is here. I'll tell you though, talented players will always be coming into the league as long as there is a league. Vince will not be the last extremely talented player the Raptors get. The best teams just continue to retool when their best players leave by acquiring young, talented players who develop to become their new best players. 

So, when it comes to the draft, which is the best place where we can improve our team right now, we should just draft the player who we feel will be the best player down the road from our respective draft position. Even if they are not the best at first, when these players develop, they will be in high demand which gives us more options. Raptors fans always complain that they wish we could improve through trades but no other teams will want our players. Then people say it is mainly for the combination of the effectiveness of the player and his contract. Well, precedents have been set where players with extremely high contracts have been traded because they were still really valuable to a team because of how talented they were. Also, the more talent you have, the more expendable a top player is to the team because there will be someone talented and cheaper to take his place.

Obviously, there are character issues to consider, but lots of players aren't the best people in the world, and the point is to make a winning team, not a team of just good people.


----------



## butr

I think you are bang on with your analysis. Many people only see the situation right in front of their face. The year ahead. Fans largely don't invest the time needed to understand the constraints teams are under. This inevitably leads to let downs.


----------



## macro6

im really intrigued with Andre Iguodala of Arizona. Hes a Richard Jefferson/Ron Artest with handles. Good replacement if we trade Vince Carter.

He may as well be the best player available at the 8th spot.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> im really intrigued with Andre Iguodala of Arizona. Hes a Richard Jefferson/Ron Artest with handles. Good replacement if we trade Vince Carter.
> 
> He may as well be the best player available at the 8th spot.


I agree 100%. He can develop range on his jumper in time. You can't teach his supreme athletic ability.


----------



## AdamIllman

> Originally posted by <b>RapsFan</b>!
> I agree that we need players, not just positional fixes. People get hung up on fixing a position with a player when that draft year or free agent year is not ripe for that position. I admit, I have done this in the past as well.
> 
> However, watching how the teams who are consitently at the top of the league draft, and the free agents they get, it seems to me that the more talent you have, the better. Look at it this way, even if you are so called stacked at a position, if you take the best player you can get, that player or another good player from the same psoition on your team can be traded for equal value at a position of greater need.
> 
> I used to have the problem of just looking at moves one year at a time. We need a PG so we should get a PG this year. We need a C so we should get a C this year. However, if you think more long term and just worry about puttinga talented team on the floor, positions do not need to matter as much.
> 
> People will also say we need to get these problems fixed before Vince gets too old because we need to win while he is here. I'll tell you though, talented players will always be coming into the league as long as there is a league. Vince will not be the last extremely talented player the Raptors get. The best teams just continue to retool when their best players leave by acquiring young, talented players who develop to become their new best players.
> 
> So, when it comes to the draft, which is the best place where we can improve our team right now, we should just draft the player who we feel will be the best player down the road from our respective draft position. Even if they are not the best at first, when these players develop, they will be in high demand which gives us more options. Raptors fans always complain that they wish we could improve through trades but no other teams will want our players. Then people say it is mainly for the combination of the effectiveness of the player and his contract. Well, precedents have been set where players with extremely high contracts have been traded because they were still really valuable to a team because of how talented they were. Also, the more talent you have, the more expendable a top player is to the team because there will be someone talented and cheaper to take his place.
> 
> Obviously, there are character issues to consider, but lots of players aren't the best people in the world, and the point is to make a winning team, not a team of just good people.


Great post and true to an extent. Most fans think that every team needs a point guard, 2 guard, small forward, power forward and centre....but that isnt necessarily true and i dont buy into it. A team should put it's best players on the floor regardless of position. With that said....I think that the one position that has to be filled is point guard. I think that it's even more important to have a traditional pass-first, floor leader type point guard than it is to have a big centre to fill the lane. I think all teams should build around a good point guard (kidd, davis, stockton, etc.). After that you have to put your best players on the floor. This is why i dont think taking Ben Gordon would be our best option. I think with our pick we could trade down a little bit and still get Sebastien Telfair...the ultimate true point guard...and develop him for the long haul. i think most raps fans are very intelligent and would realize the potential in telfair and understand that it's a process when you take a high school player...especially a point guard.

After taking Telfair I think we trade Vince to a team who is under the cap for prospects and picks. I know im gonna hear it for that comment but keep criticism constructive please. If we pick up prospects who expire the same year as Jalen we will have all the money in the world to resign them.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>AdamIllman</b>!
> 
> After taking Telfair I think we trade Vince to a team who is under the cap for prospects and picks. I know im gonna hear it for that comment but keep criticism constructive please. If we pick up prospects who expire the same year as Jalen we will have all the money in the world to resign them.


You can re-sign your own players w/o regard to the cap. We are no where near the Tax after this year. Jalen's deal is irrelevant in this scenario.


----------



## macro6

My updated draft rank:

1. Emeka Okafor (Gone b4 us, unless we win the lottery)
2. Ben Gordan (Clippers/Suns will pick him;50/50 he'll fall to us)
3. Andris Biedrins (Can go Top 4 depending on workouts)
4. Andre Iguodala (Most likely to fall to us;versetile player)
5. Sabastien Telfair (High Schooler, pass-first; will be available here)
6. Devin Harris (PG; will be available here)
7. Kosta Perovic (Next best C left; Next R.Nesterivic or a big stiff)
8. Josh Smith (if he falls to us, pick him)


My Stay away (far away) picks:

1. Ivan Chariev - non-proven. Will avoid draft camps cause' he'll know he'll be exposed. RAW.
2. Pavel Podkolzine - My Prediction: Big bust or serviceable center similar to Eric Montross and Shawn Bradley. Not worth a lottery pick IMO.
3. Ha Seung-Jin - like Chariev, hes non-proven. Ya sure, hes training in the states, still doesnt mean anything. His best competition was in high skool in south korea :uhoh:. Until he shows something at the draft camps, hes late first-round pick.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> My updated draft rank:
> 
> 1. Emeka Okafor (Gone b4 us, unless we win the lottery)
> 2. Ben Gordan (Clippers/Suns will pick him;50/50 he'll fall to us)
> 3. Andris Biedrins (Can go Top 4 depending on workouts)
> 4. Andre Iguodala (Most likely to fall to us;versetile player)
> 5. Sabastien Telfair (High Schooler, pass-first; will be available here)
> 6. Devin Harris (PG; will be available here)
> 7. Kosta Perovic (Next best C left; Next R.Nesterivic or a big stiff)
> 8. Josh Smith (if he falls to us, pick him)
> 
> 
> My Stay away (far away) picks:
> 
> 1. Ivan Chariev - non-proven. Will avoid draft camps cause' he'll know he'll be exposed. RAW.
> 2. Pavel Podkolzine - My Prediction: Big bust or serviceable center similar to Eric Montross and Shawn Bradley. Not worth a lottery pick IMO.
> 3. Ha Seung-Jin - like Chariev, hes non-proven. Ya sure, hes training in the states, still doesnt mean anything. His best competition was in high skool in south korea :uhoh:. Until he shows something at the draft camps, hes late first-round pick.


No Howard?


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> No Howard?


I didnt add him cause' hes in the same mold as BOSH. Every team usually has a inside/outside big man on their team (ie. Ben Wallace/Rasheed, J.Oneal/Foster, Divac/Webber, Shaq/Malone) that usually work. BOSH and Howard are both high post type players, so i dunno if they can co-exist. A guy like Emeka doesnt need the ball to be effective and likes to play inside.


----------



## Sánchez AF

> BOSH and Howard are both high post type players, so i dunno if they can co-exist.


BOSH CAN PLAY OUTSIDE AND HOWARD IS A GREAT PROSPECT


----------



## macro6

I remember Jack.M mentioning that if theres no GM in place b4 the Draft, he has 2-3 Draft picks he wanted. He said that they would be NBA ready and we'll be starting for the Raptors.

So my guess is:

1. Ben Gordan
2. Jameer Nelson
3. Andre Iguodala


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> I remember Jack.M mentioning that if theres no GM in place b4 the Draft, he has 2-3 Draft picks he wanted. He said that they would be NBA ready and we'll be starting for the Raptors.
> 
> So my guess is:
> 
> 1. Ben Gordan
> 2. Jameer Nelson
> 3. Andre Iguodala


Not to be picky, I might reverse 2 and 3.


----------



## Sánchez AF

Gordon is the best choice


----------



## bigbabyjesus

My top 10 draft rankings. 

1. *Emeka Okafor* PF/C- Would be my first choice in the draft. Just think of the defensive possibilities with him and Bosh in the future. This could be the Rasheed/Ben frontcourt, but with Bosh and Okafor they are younger and will be able to gel with each other from much younger stages of their games. Either could play centre, and this would be the best shotblocking tandem in the league.

2. *Dwight Howard* PF/C- Could very well end up being the better pick then Okafor in the end. Has much more potential, but we need to win now, and a Bosh and Okafor frontcourt would be much more ready than a Bosh and Howard one. If Howard fills out his potential though, we could be looking at the best frontcourt in the league for a long time.

3. *Josh Smith* SG/SF- This guy is just the man. He could very well end up being a McGrady, Kobe type player in the future, and could contribute right away. The possibility of the athletic froncourt of VC-Smith-Bosh makes me cry with excitement. Would also be an ideal replacement if we trade VC for a PG or C, and would put butts in the seats and almost make people forget about VC in time.

4. *Ben Gordan* PG- One of the more ready players in this draft. An explosive scorer, slasher, and an underrated passer and creator. Could provide some much needed scoring for us, and another one of our most biggest needs, perimeter defense. May have some problems playing the point in the league but should adapt after a while.

5. *Andris Biedrins* PF/C- Another very young prospect, but a dynamite one at that. Could play the 4 or 5 for us, and provide a nice frontcourt partner for Bosh. A raw player, but could start for us later on in the season, and give us some defense and shotblocking off the bench. Potential is HUGE, another player that you pair with Bosh and just dream of the possibilities.

6. *Sebastian Telfair* PG- Maybe a little high for him, but I'm a huge supporter. Provides the pure point guard that can distibute that we desperately need, and tenacious perimeter defense. With his court vision and globetrotter flair, you can just picture him throwing amazing alley-oop passes to Vince Carter and Chris Bosh. 

7. *Pavel Podkolzine* C- Just a huge player with tons of potential. Very athletic and mobile for his size. A raw player, but with his strength, he should be able to just dominant on the offensive end on a lot of the smaller centres in the league. And with a 7'5 monster playing next to you, you'd have to think that would take some much needed pressure off Bosh.

8. *Shaun Livingston* PG- Probably the rawest player in this draft, but he has so much talent and has huge upside, that seems to be the case with all of these high school players. Will create many matchup problems at the point guard position, and though he is 6'7, he's as pure of a point as they come. With a backcourt of three guys over 6'6 in VC, Rose and Livingston, that all have tremendous passing skills and court vision, we'd be a scary team in the future.

9. *Devin Harris* PG- Good size for a point guard at 6'3, but needs to put on more weight to be effective. If Gordon, Telfair and Livingston are all gone, it would be tough to chose between Harris and Nelson, but I go with Harris because he's more of a pure point and I think will end up having the better career. He's a very capable scorer and unselfish player that would flourish alongside VC, and Rose.

10. *Andre Iguodala* SG/SF- An extremely versatile player similar to VC, and Rose, as he can play all three backcourt positions. Probably the best athlete in this draft, and though his scoring needs work, he'll probably be one of the elite perimeter defenders in the league in a few years, and will win a few dunk contests. Another good replacement if our GM is thinking of trading Vince.


----------



## Sánchez AF

> My top 10 draft rankings.
> 
> 1. Emeka Okafor PF/C- Would be my first choice in the draft. Just think of the defensive possibilities with him and Bosh in the future. This could be the Rasheed/Ben frontcourt, but with Bosh and Okafor they are younger and will be able to gel with each other from much younger stages of their games. Either could play centre, and this would be the best shotblocking tandem in the league.
> 
> 2. Dwight Howard PF/C- Could very well end up being the better pick then Okafor in the end. Has much more potential, but we need to win now, and a Bosh and Okafor frontcourt would be much more ready than a Bosh and Howard one. If Howard fills out his potential though, we could be looking at the best frontcourt in the league for a long time.
> 
> 3. Josh Smith SG/SF- This guy is just the man. He could very well end up being a McGrady, Kobe type player in the future, and could contribute right away. The possibility of the athletic froncourt of VC-Smith-Bosh makes me cry with excitement. Would also be an ideal replacement if we trade VC for a PG or C, and would put butts in the seats and almost make people forget about VC in time.
> 
> 4. Ben Gordan PG- One of the more ready players in this draft. An explosive scorer, slasher, and an underrated passer and creator. Could provide some much needed scoring for us, and another one of our most biggest needs, perimeter defense. May have some problems playing the point in the league but should adapt after a while.
> 
> 5. Andris Biedrins PF/C- Another very young prospect, but a dynamite one at that. Could play the 4 or 5 for us, and provide a nice frontcourt partner for Bosh. A raw player, but could start for us later on in the season, and give us some defense and shotblocking off the bench. Potential is HUGE, another player that you pair with Bosh and just dream of the possibilities.
> 
> 6. Sebastian Telfair PG- Maybe a little high for him, but I'm a huge supporter. Provides the pure point guard that can distibute that we desperately need, and tenacious perimeter defense. With his court vision and globetrotter flair, you can just picture him throwing amazing alley-oop passes to Vince Carter and Chris Bosh.
> 
> 7. Pavel Podkolzine C- Just a huge player with tons of potential. Very athletic and mobile for his size. A raw player, but with his strength, he should be able to just dominant on the offensive end on a lot of the smaller centres in the league. And with a 7'5 monster playing next to you, you'd have to think that would take some much needed pressure off Bosh.
> 
> 8. Shaun Livingston PG- Probably the rawest player in this draft, but he has so much talent and has huge upside, that seems to be the case with all of these high school players. Will create many matchup problems at the point guard position, and though he is 6'7, he's as pure of a point as they come. With a backcourt of three guys over 6'6 in VC, Rose and Livingston, that all have tremendous passing skills and court vision, we'd be a scary team in the future.
> 
> 9. Devin Harris PG- Good size for a point guard at 6'3, but needs to put on more weight to be effective. If Gordon, Telfair and Livingston are all gone, it would be tough to chose between Harris and Nelson, but I go with Harris because he's more of a pure point and I think will end up having the better career. He's a very capable scorer and unselfish player that would flourish alongside VC, and Rose.
> 
> 10. Andre Iguodala SG/SF- An extremely versatile player similar to VC, and Rose, as he can play all three backcourt positions. Probably the best athlete in this draft, and though his scoring needs work, he'll probably be one of the elite perimeter defenders in the league in a few years, and will win a few dunk contests. Another good replacement if our GM is thinking of trading Vince.


i'm agree with you 

I think if we get Josh Smith I don't mind in trade Vince

you think NO takes vince for magloire and 2 first round pick (just a crazy idea :grinning: )


----------



## SkywalkerAC

despite high turnovers and low FT%, Biedrins was very impressive at the Euro U-18 Championships. http://www.draftcity.com/articles/0009.htm

22 ppg, 14.4 rpg, 2.6 assists, 3.8 steals, 4.4 blocks over 5 games. 

i doubt he drops to us but i'm really hoping he does.


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> despite high turnovers and low FT%, Biedrins was very impressive at the Euro U-18 Championships. http://www.draftcity.com/articles/0009.htm
> 
> 22 ppg, 14.4 rpg, 2.6 assists, 3.8 steals, 4.4 blocks over 5 games.
> 
> i doubt he drops to us but i'm really hoping he does.


I like him. He likes to play defense, something europeons arent known for.


----------



## Goku

further proof we are cursed...the only bigman with actual talent is undersized. 

Everything about Biedrins sounds great. Really great. Except his size. He doesn't look like he has a big frame to add weight either.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>Goku</b>!
> further proof we are cursed...the only bigman with actual talent is undersized.
> 
> Everything about Biedrins sounds great. Really great. Except his size. He doesn't look like he has a big frame to add weight either.


he should be over 7' with shoes on. for an 18 year old, his frame doesn't look bad at all. certainly a better frame than bosh at the same age. obviously still needs to add a lot of strength and some weight though.


----------



## :TorontoRaptors:

It's Ben Gordon.

Not Gordan.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> 
> i'm agree with you
> 
> I think if we get Josh Smith I don't mind in trade Vince
> 
> you think NO takes vince for magloire and 2 first round pick (just a crazy idea :grinning: )


not sure. don't think New Orleans would be stupid like that, because there going to the West next year, and the only legit big man they'll have is PJ Brown and David West. maybe if they traded Baron Davis or Jamal Mashburn for a centre beforehand.



> Originally posted by *Goku*!
> 
> further proof we are cursed...the only bigman with actual talent is undersized.
> 
> Everything about Biedrins sounds great. Really great. Except his size. He doesn't look like he has a big frame to add weight either.


he's got good size for a young guy.

only 18, somewhere between 6'11-7'0, and he's already bigger than Bosh. 240, while still skinny, isn't that bad for that specific height range.

he's similar to Pau Gasol in body type. Gasol's only 240 right now, and he doesn't get pushed around all that much.



> Originally posted by *:TorontoRaptors:*!
> 
> It's Ben Gordon.
> 
> Not Gordan.


sorry  

(I don't care).


----------



## SkywalkerAC

*Biedrins clip*

http://159.148.191.70/galerija/basketbols/video/31012004_SKO_Andris-Biedrins.mpg

he doesn't exactly explode off the floor here but he shows good quickness. not sure how recent it is.


----------



## macro6

*Re: Biedrins clip*



> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> http://159.148.191.70/galerija/basketbols/video/31012004_SKO_Andris-Biedrins.mpg
> 
> he doesn't exactly explode off the floor here but he shows good quickness. not sure how recent it is.


He looks great on the open court. His body is similar to Bosh's and Gasol's.

I believe his stock will skyrocket once he does individual workouts for teams.

Bosh and Biedrins would make a great pair.


----------



## butr

*Re: Re: Biedrins clip*



> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> 
> 
> He looks great on the open court. His body is similar to Bosh's and Gasol's.
> 
> I believe his stock will skyrocket once he does individual workouts for teams.
> 
> Bosh and Biedrins would make a great pair.


I agree


----------



## macro6

Play the NBA Mock Lottery Draft 

On my first try, Raptors win the top pick. :grinning:


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> My top 10 draft rankings.
> 
> 1. *Emeka Okafor* PF/C- Would be my first choice in the draft. Just think of the defensive possibilities with him and Bosh in the future. This could be the Rasheed/Ben frontcourt, but with Bosh and Okafor they are younger and will be able to gel with each other from much younger stages of their games. Either could play centre, and this would be the best shotblocking tandem in the league.
> 
> 2. *Dwight Howard* PF/C- Could very well end up being the better pick then Okafor in the end. Has much more potential, but we need to win now, and a Bosh and Okafor frontcourt would be much more ready than a Bosh and Howard one. If Howard fills out his potential though, we could be looking at the best frontcourt in the league for a long time.
> 
> 3. *Josh Smith* SG/SF- This guy is just the man. He could very well end up being a McGrady, Kobe type player in the future, and could contribute right away. The possibility of the athletic froncourt of VC-Smith-Bosh makes me cry with excitement. Would also be an ideal replacement if we trade VC for a PG or C, and would put butts in the seats and almost make people forget about VC in time.
> 
> 4. *Ben Gordan* PG- One of the more ready players in this draft. An explosive scorer, slasher, and an underrated passer and creator. Could provide some much needed scoring for us, and another one of our most biggest needs, perimeter defense. May have some problems playing the point in the league but should adapt after a while.
> 
> 5. *Andris Biedrins* PF/C- Another very young prospect, but a dynamite one at that. Could play the 4 or 5 for us, and provide a nice frontcourt partner for Bosh. A raw player, but could start for us later on in the season, and give us some defense and shotblocking off the bench. Potential is HUGE, another player that you pair with Bosh and just dream of the possibilities.
> 
> 6. *Sebastian Telfair* PG- Maybe a little high for him, but I'm a huge supporter. Provides the pure point guard that can distibute that we desperately need, and tenacious perimeter defense. With his court vision and globetrotter flair, you can just picture him throwing amazing alley-oop passes to Vince Carter and Chris Bosh.
> 
> 7. *Pavel Podkolzine* C- Just a huge player with tons of potential. Very athletic and mobile for his size. A raw player, but with his strength, he should be able to just dominant on the offensive end on a lot of the smaller centres in the league. And with a 7'5 monster playing next to you, you'd have to think that would take some much needed pressure off Bosh.
> 
> 8. *Shaun Livingston* PG- Probably the rawest player in this draft, but he has so much talent and has huge upside, that seems to be the case with all of these high school players. Will create many matchup problems at the point guard position, and though he is 6'7, he's as pure of a point as they come. With a backcourt of three guys over 6'6 in VC, Rose and Livingston, that all have tremendous passing skills and court vision, we'd be a scary team in the future.
> 
> 9. *Devin Harris* PG- Good size for a point guard at 6'3, but needs to put on more weight to be effective. If Gordon, Telfair and Livingston are all gone, it would be tough to chose between Harris and Nelson, but I go with Harris because he's more of a pure point and I think will end up having the better career. He's a very capable scorer and unselfish player that would flourish alongside VC, and Rose.
> 
> 10. *Andre Iguodala* SG/SF- An extremely versatile player similar to VC, and Rose, as he can play all three backcourt positions. Probably the best athlete in this draft, and though his scoring needs work, he'll probably be one of the elite perimeter defenders in the league in a few years, and will win a few dunk contests. Another good replacement if our GM is thinking of trading Vince.


i like your breakdown, it would be pretty similar to mine. i'd have telfair much lower (could be a mistake because i haven't watched him play). i also think that Pavel and Ha have to be given the opportunity to move up, over some of the guards, if they can effectively demonstrate massive potential.


----------



## Goku

He sure doesn't look like a future center to me. Gasol is way bigger than him right now. Maybe he'll add weight, but he still has a slender frame.


----------



## Porn Player

biendris would give us a great team but if we had the chence to get smith should we really not take him even tho he might not be what the team needs becasue we already have vince. in the draft i say we take gordon if we can he has such a great upside and we need a legit pg not jalen trying to be!


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> I actually think they will take Pavel if he is there, despite any reservations about him being an international. The center position is really the main point of interest (along with the PG position). Perovic may be chosen as well, even though he needs to add some more mass.
> 
> I think the Raps really need bulk in the post. I mean, Bosh is not a center. He could possibly be forced to play it... but at a detriment to his play and his development. He would be so much better at the PF next to a bulky center who can guard the stronger post players.
> 
> _At the PG, despite my thinking he is the best PG in the draft I don't think Gordon is a good choice for the Raptors, he's too offensive minded for that team. I think a player like Sebastian Telfair or Devin Harris, players who are more of a distributor, would be perfect for them._


alright, so this post by prerak(draftcity) on the realgm boards are almost my exact thoughts on the raptors needs, really just more specifically the part in italic.

as much as i love Ben Gordon and i think he's going to be a very good player, i don't think his future is at the point position. he's going to be mainly a scorer in the league, and he's real turnover prone, and though his handles are solid, they look real shakey at times.

i've said this a lot before but before anything the raptors really need a pure point that can distribute more than anything. i think Sebastian Telfair, and Devin Harris are those guys. Telfair might be a stretch to a lot of people at the 7-9 range, but i think he'll be worth it. people who are doubting Telfair this year, were much like the things i heard about Ford last year. 

unless we get top 2 picks, as well, i don't like us picking a big man up, as there all really long term projects (i might be willing to make that sacrifice on Biedrins).

Telfair/AW
Rose/Mason
VC/Mo-Pete
Bosh/Donny
FA/Bosh

would be better than drafting a risky project and having a situation similar to Darko in Detroit. that doesn't mean i don't want to pick a big man, just prefer a point.


----------



## Sánchez AF

after tonight game we are out of the chances to get B gordon


----------



## macro6

If Ben Gordon is available when we pick, then we pick him! Dont pass him up cause' he has a scorer mentality. This Raptor team need scorers/slashers and Gordon will provide that. You just dont pass up a potential star. 

I compare our situation to Miami's situation of last summer. Like Miami, we have lots of scorers and need a true PG. Everybody knew Miami needed a PG and TJ Ford was the logical choice cause' hes a "True" PG, instead they went with a combo guard - Dwayne Wade and look at how that turned out. So if Gordon and Harris/Telfair is available, pick Gordon. I believe Ben Gordon will have the same impact as Wade next year and will be a contendor for the rookie of the year award. 

If a talented big like Biedrins fall to us, i wouldnt mind if the Raptors picked him over a PG. And i HOPE TO GAWD the Raptors wont pick PAVEL................:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:


----------



## Goku

nevermind.

Gordon


----------



## Sánchez AF

i think gordon will not be available for us so take Telfair


----------



## SkywalkerAC

Pavel will be gone in the top 6. count on it.


----------



## Porn Player

pavel will defo be gone top 6 last year we were considerin taken him ova bosh if he declared so not much has changed! i think we take gordon or harris unless livingston is still around then take him afta gordon!


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>skip_dawg!</b>!
> pavel will defo be gone top 6 last year we were considerin taken him ova bosh if he declared so not much has changed!


what has changed is that the top 6 isn't as strong this year and pavel has improved as a prospect.


----------



## macro6

*DEVIN HARRIS* 

What do you guys think of him? Nobody really talks much bout him. 

Hes very underrated here, he might wind up being better then Gordon. Hes more of a natural PG then Gordon. I think he would make a great fit for us if we keep VC. He's big, can score, play defense, and pass. Whats not to like? I think its a very close battle between Gordon and Harris for best PG in the draft. I would be happy with either. 

IMO, he'll have a Kirk Hinrich-like impact next year - 12 pts / 7 ast. If Ben Gordon isnt there, Devin is our guy or Telfair (if we decide to rebuild).


----------



## :TorontoRaptors:

I'll take Ben Gordon anyday... even though he'll be gone by 8.

1. Andris Biedrins
2. Ben Gordon
3. Devan Harris
4. Ivan Chiriaev
5. Pavel Podkolzine


----------



## Goku

I don't understand all the love for Biedrins. Year after year we get abused by wide-bodies, so now we should draft another tweener?

I think we draft the best talent available still, but if it isn't a pg or legit Center, we should explore a trade. Bosh/Biedrins could probably survive, but I want more than that. Biedrins isn't a natural center. There is no way. Unless those pictures are inaccurate, he has no width to him at all.

I think management tries to get too clever sometimes. They have so much time to analyze things, they miss the obvious. Thinking about all the potential matchups, and ways we could tinker with things, and the different looks we could throw.

But all we end up with is a bizarrely constructed lineup that gets exposed.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

I guess I'll post this here.. since it involves some draft picks.. but what do you guys think of this trade.

Toronto trades: 
SF Vince Carter (22.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 4.8 apg in 38.1 minutes) 
Toronto receives: 
PF Christian Laettner (5.9 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.9 apg in 20.5 minutes) 
PF Kwame Brown (10.9 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 1.5 apg in 30.2 minutes) 
SF Jarvis Hayes (9.6 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 1.5 apg in 29.2 minutes)
2004 1ST ROUND PICK
Change in team outlook: +3.9 ppg, +11.2 rpg, and +0.1 apg. 

Washington trades: 
PF Christian Laettner (5.9 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 1.9 apg in 20.5 minutes) 
PF Kwame Brown (10.9 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 1.5 apg in 30.2 minutes) 
SF Jarvis Hayes (9.6 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 1.5 apg in 29.2 minutes)
2004 1ST ROUND PICK 
Washington receives: 
SF Vince Carter (22.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 4.8 apg in 73 games) 
Change in team outlook: -3.9 ppg, -11.2 rpg, and -0.1 apg. 

TRADE ACCEPTED


I already posted this on the trade forum. But I just wanted to bring this up on the board somewhere because I love this trade the more I look into it. Doesn't look that appealing at first, but we get an up and coming star, a young stud and an expiring deal. 

After we draft Ben Gordon with the 3rd pick (could take Livingston, if we're willing to develop and take a risk on much more potential) and Andre Iguodala with the 8th, and draft a guy like Ronny Turiaf who won't play much minutes but could be a Corliss Williamson type piece in the future with our second rounder. We would sign some veterans to this very young team. Sign tough gritty guys to surrond our young guys like Eric Williams, Adonal Foyle, Travis Best.

So our lineup is...

B.Gordon/A.Williams/T.Best
J.Rose/J.Hayes/R.Mason
E.Williams/A.Iguodala
C.Bosh/D.Marshall/R.Turiaf
K.Brown/A.Foyle/

I think that's a .500 team for sure, with some strong post presences' and a lot of good young pieces, and veterans. Even if we're not a .500 team next year, that's a damn good team to look forward to in the future..


----------



## Sánchez AF

could work but i take Haywood over Laettner

I can't remember who post this idea But somebody propose this:

WIZARDS TRADE:

Arenas
Brown

Raptors 
Vince
FUTURE FIRST ROUND PICK


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> could work but i take Haywood over Laettner
> 
> I can't remember who post this idea But somebody propose this:
> 
> WIZARDS TRADE:
> 
> Arenas
> Brown
> 
> Raptors
> Vince
> FUTURE FIRST ROUND PICK


lol that's so unlikely it's not even funny. 

Seriously, I doubt we could even get Arenas for VC straight up right now. Arenas has really proven himself to be a future superstar in the league this year and is still really young. Not to mention they add Kwame Brown, another future star.

NO WAY! Washington does that, but I shouldn't be criticizing trade scenarios as I make a lot of lopsided ones myself, but not _that_ lopsided.


----------



## macro6

No way Washington trades Kwame Brown (up-and-coming star) + Jarvis Hayes (young talent) + a First Round pick (top 3) for Vince Carter.


----------



## Sánchez AF

IN mock draft of THE NBADRAFT.NET 

Our pick is Pavel that's would be sweet !!!! 

*~Fry~*


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> IN mock draft of THE NBADRAFT.NET
> 
> Our pick is Pavel that's would be sweet !!!!
> 
> *~Fry~*


might take some patience but bosh and pavel could develop into the best 4/5 combo in the league...of course that would require pavel to actually play D and rebound like his giant *** can.


----------



## trick

say no to Pavel :nonono:


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> say no to Pavel :nonono:


why?


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> No way Washington trades Kwame Brown (up-and-coming star) + Jarvis Hayes (young talent) + a First Round pick (top 3) for Vince Carter.


Agreed.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

I think as of right now, assuming we don't do any trades that drastically change our starting lineup, our best option would be to trade down.

Whether it be to Boston for (15,24,25), Portland for (13,23), or Utah for (14,16).. I think out of those teams Utah would be the best option, but I like Portland just because we'd have a better shot at Telfair.

I think there's a huge chance we trade this pick, whether it be to get two lower picks, or package it with a bad contract, or whatever.


And about selecting Pavel, I'd love to pick him if he slips to 8. But the thing about selecting a big is that we'd still be looking for a point, rather than if we took a point and could address the big in the FA market. theres no legit starting points out there. But then theres always Burks in the second round 

Why are you some of you guys so down on Pavel anyways? I'm sure none of you have seen him play.

BTW-- if we had say the 5 pick or something like that ( if we trade up or something), and Gordon is gone, would you guys select Livingston? I know a lot of you are down on him, but I definetly think he's going to be an all-star, maybe not on the Penny level, but still.


----------



## speedythief

Like hellbot said, an option would be to trade our 8th (and 40th, maybe) for Boston's 15th, 24th, and 25th. Barring major trades, Rose will probably still be our point-forward next season and Alvin will still probably start at off-guard.

We could get Sebastian Telfair, Luke Jackson, and maybe Robert Swift. That would be nice!


Williams/Telfair
Rose/Peterson/Glover
Carter/Jackson
Bosh/Marshall
Swift/Moiso/Scott Williams (FA)

IR: Murray, Bonner


----------



## Sánchez AF

> Williams/Telfair
> Rose/Peterson/Glover
> Carter/Jackson
> Bosh/Marshall
> Swift/Moiso/Scott Williams (FA)


i don't think Swift can start in his first year maybe not in his second year he's coming from hs.

I'll Take Ha seun Jing, David Harrison Araujo even Peter Jhno Ramos another hs prospect but he's 7'3 

*~Fr¥~*


----------



## Sánchez AF

Tiago Splitter

he'll be available for this Draft 

If we trade our 8 pick for multiple picks we could draft him

Tiago Profile 

he and Bosh could be a great froncourt

Best Case Scenario: Pau Gasol

*~Fr¥~*


----------



## butr

If we stick with the program, which is about a .99 probability, I really like the trade down scenario. I talked about this with Utah earlier but I think a deal would be more possible with Boston or Portland just because Utah does really need to add a number of bodies to that roster.

If Gordon is off the board before we get our shot, I am dealing down 100% if Boston or Portland are willing.


----------



## macro6

If the Raptors are willing to gamble BIG, then by all means, take Pavel. IMO, Toronto cant afford to take huge risks, and if Pavel does become a bust, it would be a major setback for the Toronto francaise.


----------



## speedythief

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> 
> 
> i don't think Swift can start in his first year maybe not in his second year he's coming from hs.
> 
> I'll Take Ha seun Jing, David Harrison Araujo even Peter Jhno Ramos another hs prospect but he's 7'3
> 
> *~Fr¥~*


I agree. I just put him there because I wanted to put Bosh there, but I expected everyone to cry about him not being a centre. Who knows what lies ahead in terms of trades this summer. But until something happens, there is a very good chance CB4 will be our 5 next season.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

might be a great idea to fill out our roster with an eddie griffin-type of trade but i don't think the picks past 20 or so are looking too hot. Telfair, Ha, and Big Al are all out of highschool but getting all 3 would give our team the potential to be great a couple years down the road.

however, if Deng and Livingston come out, the top 8/9 is looking really good. hard to pass on one of these guys.

okafor
howard
livingston
deng
smith
gordon
pavel
Biedrins
...
Harris
Iguodala


----------



## Sánchez AF

Livingston could be gReat !!!

*~Fr¥~*


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> 
> 
> But until something happens, there is a very good chance CB4 will be our 5 next season.


That is a scary thought. If there is one way to ruin this guy, this is it.


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> That is a scary thought. If there is one way to ruin this guy, this is it.



Agreed.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> That is a scary thought. If there is one way to ruin this guy, this is it.


how so? injury? i'm sure we'll have a backup center of some kind that will allow bosh to play the 4 at times but Bosh can get it done at the 5; it will be difficult to sign a starting C this offseason but a good backup/sometime starter will be available. if he does have to play most of his minutes at the 5, i think he'll be a top 10 center next year. 

like duncan, Bosh would probably be better off at the 4 but can hold his own at the 5 (much moreso as he gets stronger). 

i really doubt that any of the rookie centers would start over Bosh/marshall, to start out the year anyway. etan thomas or foyle might get the start, with yell off the bench.

do we want to give up bosh's backup (yell) in a trade? 

i guess it depends on how strong/big Bosh gets in the offseason but i'm not so worried that starting him at center will somehow ruin his career.

on a side note, Deng and Livingston coming out makes this a much stronger draft for the raps.


----------



## kirk_2003

CHRIS MIHM and ETAN THOMAS is always available to be out starter C. :yes:


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>kirk_2003</b>!
> CHRIS MIHM and ETAN THOMAS is always available to be out starter C. :yes:


they, along with Blount, should be looking for MLE contract (<= 4.5 mill)

for the draft, we can go big if we'd like with one of: 
Pavel (should be gone)
Biedrins (could very well be gone)
Perovic (i think he'll stay in europe)
Ha (might not be too high if he's looking great right out of highschool)
Peter John Ramos (7'4 280 lbs and should be a top 15 pick)

trading down could be an option for Ha and Ramos if we want to get a center. i think either Ha or Ramos will be there at 14 or 15.

however, point guards trail off in the later first round. if we could get a pick in the 20s i'd be looking at humphries as he can fill the Yell role (SF/PF).


----------



## kirk_2003

i say if GORDON is not there on the board when we're up trade down and try to get JIN. :yes:


----------



## Sánchez AF

> CHRIS MIHM and ETAN THOMAS is always available to be out starter C.


Mihm yes Thomas No

*~Fr¥~*


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by *speedythief*!
> 
> 
> But until something happens, there is a very good chance CB4 will be our 5 next season.


True. But I think there's a 100 % chance something happens. 

There's no doubt in my mind that the first thing management has in mind this summer is to acquire a big, whether it be in the draft (we'll most likely go point), or in the FA market.




> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> 
> 
> Mihm yes Thomas No
> 
> *~Fr¥~*


Are you actually serious?

Mihm is a very soft, and has no determination. He's the type of guy that instead of throwing it down, he'll try to do a finger roll and get it blocked. He's the last guy we need right now. A lot of people just want him because he has potential, but he just flat out isn't a smart player.

Give me a solid seasoned vet in Etan Thomas, 100 times out of 100. It's not even close. Mihm's garbage.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> 
> how so? injury?


Please. Please. Bosh is not a C. I know some of you think this kid is 225 but some people thought Charles was 6'8" or even 9".

He is just not that big yet. Believe what you want. If he is forced into C duty again for a good portion of time, he is going to wear down physically before he ever actually physically matures.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> Please. Please. Bosh is not a C. I know some of you think this kid is 225 but some people thought Charles was 6'8" or even 9".
> 
> He is just not that big yet. Believe what you want. If he is forced into C duty again for a good portion of time, he is going to wear down physically before he ever actually physically matures.


he is roughly 225 and he's going to get bigger. bottom line, he held his own AT CENTER as a 19 year old rook. as long as he gets stronger he's going to be a force regardless of whether he mans the 4 or the 5.


----------



## butr

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> 
> he is roughly 225 and he's going to get bigger. bottom line, he held his own AT CENTER as a 19 year old rook. as long as he gets stronger he's going to be a force regardless of whether he mans the 4 or the 5.


So if Bosh adds 15 Ibs this year, he will be 240?

Do you know what 240 looks like? Bosh is not 225. Go look at NBA.com and look at what actual 225 guys look like. Michael Bradley was 225. He has more muscle and broader shoulders. Bosh is NOT 225.

Remember Bosh's shooting touch at the beginning of the year. I remember summer league when he was knocking everything down. He lost it toward the end b/c he was so beaten up using his legs and leverage to fight these guys.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> So if Bosh adds 15 Ibs this year, he will be 240?
> 
> Do you know what 240 looks like? Bosh is not 225. Go look at NBA.com and look at what actual 225 guys look like. Michael Bradley was 225. He has more muscle and broader shoulders. Bosh is NOT 225.
> 
> Remember Bosh's shooting touch at the beginning of the year. I remember summer league when he was knocking everything down. He lost it toward the end b/c he was so beaten up using his legs and leverage to fight these guys.


i think VC was almost 225 coming into the league; you don't think bosh is that big? travis outlaw is like 210. bradley got up around 250 after coming into the league around 225. i really doubt bosh is less than 220 and i'd be suprised if he was less than 230 next year. and if you want to know what 240 lbs looks like (when it's solid muscle) look no further than KG, who doesn't make 225 for Bosh look like an exageration at all. if you look around NBA.com, 225 is the weight of many wing players that Bosh actually makes look quite small. 

bottom line, he has to get stronger and he will.


----------



## macro6

*Pavel Podkolzine out for at least a month with hand injury* 



> Italian A League News: Pavel Podkolzine has suffered an intra-articular (within the joint) fracture in his right hand, which will sideline him for at least a month and possibly even longer. This injury is not rare amongst basketball players, it's either brought on by falling on the wrist or from a direct blow. In Podkolzine's case it came in a game against Breil Milano where he took a hard blow on his hand from a rival player. His hand has been plastered and Podkolzine now has a tough decision ahead of him regarding the timing of his return-- as he could possibly be ready to suit up for the playoffs-- but that might not be in his (or his agent's) best interest because of the fear that might he reaggravate it. His draft stock is somewhat shaky as it is, another setback that keeps him from playing at 100% in private workouts could force him to stay in Italy for another year.



LINK


----------



## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> He is just not that big yet. Believe what you want. If he is forced into C duty again for a good portion of time, he is going to wear down physically before he ever actually physically matures.


I agree.

The last thing we need is a serious injury to BOSH. Bosh can play Centre, not just full time, maybe 2-4 years from now when he gains more mass, then he can play full time. Bosh is at a growing stage right now, his body is still developing and any injuries (Back, legs, ankle) would be a major blow. Asking a 20 yr old to guard players taht are 20-30 pounds heavier him may hurt him in the long run. Why take the risk?


----------



## FanOfAll8472

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> Are you actually serious?
> 
> Mihm is a very soft, and has no determination. He's the type of guy that instead of throwing it down, he'll try to do a finger roll and get it blocked. He's the last guy we need right now. A lot of people just want him because he has potential, but he just flat out isn't a smart player.
> 
> Give me a solid seasoned vet in Etan Thomas, 100 times out of 100. It's not even close. Mihm's garbage.


Mihm's potential, and pure potential. I'm not sure what type of coach he needs, but he needs one to keep him going. He's got nice post moves, has shown flashes of dominating the boards (before being traded to BOS, he had the highest RB's per 48 minutes), as well as a good shot swatter. But he's never played consistent.

I would like Etan Thomas, but he's not exactly a "seasoned vet" considering this is his first full season of getting significant playing time . The main problem with Thomas is that he's a black hole on offense...he eats up the ball in the post and it's either gone to the other team or it's off the backboard and to the other team. But I like his energy, physicaility on defense, aggressiveness, defense...


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree.
> 
> The last thing we need is a serious injury to BOSH. Bosh can play Centre, not just full time, maybe 2-4 years from now when he gains more mass, then he can play full time. Bosh is at a growing stage right now, his body is still developing and any injuries (Back, legs, ankle) would be a major blow. Asking a 20 yr old to guard players taht are 20-30 pounds heavier him may hurt him in the long run. Why take the risk?


is the "risk" really decreased that much by playing power forward? you probably get a little more worn out by playing a rugged center game but it's not easy battling against the KG's and Duncans either.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

as the draft gets closer and closer i become more intrigued with Ivan. presumably our scouts should have watched the big russian more than other teams, given the proximity. he looks like he should have the biggest upside of any player available at our pick and he should fit into our system. 

is he ready to contribute? i wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility but i don't know what position he would guard (3 or the 4). although he's not the center we all want, he brings a lot of size to the table. his athleticism and agility are supposed to be off the charts for his size, along with his skills.

nbadraft.net article from a few months back: http://nbadraft.net/chiriaevstory.asp

he's been working hard ever since and his work ethic is a big part of his appeal. doing plyometrics at his size is a testament to his athleticism. if he develops properly we should be one of the most dangerous teams in the east.

JR
VC
Ivan
Yell
Bosh

one of the longest teams in the league and probably the best shooting team. we'd definitely need a bruiser like Etan but talk about potential. would be hard to pass up gordon or harris but it might be the best decision for the long run. looking forward to see how he moves and how strong he looks in the game coming up (when is it again?).

he seems like a lot better prospect than Lampe, although Lampe might be better suited to play center. 

then again, he could be gone before we pick...or he may not look that good at all. either way, if we pick him (demonstrating what an impressive prospect he is) i'm going to be one happy man.


----------



## butr

Bradley 250, you are mad? Vince is 225 now yes. But has a wider frame than Bosh. Thicker bones and more muscle than Bosh.

CB will get bigger but if he is ever a center, you have a weak team. He is not a C. He is not going to play in this league at 250. He might, might get to 235...one day....3-4 years from now.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> Bradley 250, you are mad? Vince is 225 now yes. But has a wider frame than Bosh. Thicker bones and more muscle than Bosh.
> 
> CB will get bigger but if he is ever a center, you have a weak team. He is not a C. He is not going to play in this league at 250. He might, might get to 235...one day....3-4 years from now.


Bosh weighs at least as much as VC. Bradley bulked up a lot from his rookie season, ask anyone here. 

He looks to have a better frame to add muscle than does JO. Bosh went from 210 to 225 before last season, i predict he'll be closer to 235 next year than he is to 225. 250 probably is a little high for him but 240 (as we can see from KG) is definitely not out of the question. Bosh at center does not automatically make for a weak team. it all depends who we have around him. He's a better center than Jeff Foster, who has been starting for the Pacers all season. i hear they're a pretty good team.


----------



## butr

:nonono::frenchy:


----------



## mxr2000

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> 
> they, along with Blount, should be looking for MLE contract (<= 4.5 mill)
> 
> for the draft, we can go big if we'd like with one of:
> Pavel (should be gone)
> Biedrins (could very well be gone)
> Perovic (i think he'll stay in europe)
> Ha (might not be too high if he's looking great right out of highschool)
> Peter John Ramos (7'4 280 lbs and should be a top 15 pick)
> 
> trading down could be an option for Ha and Ramos if we want to get a center. i think either Ha or Ramos will be there at 14 or 15.
> 
> however, point guards trail off in the later first round. if we could get a pick in the 20s i'd be looking at humphries as he can fill the Yell role (SF/PF).


 last night PJ Ramos score 27 points,22 rebounds,3 assist,1 steal,1 shot block....


----------



## RapsFan

> Originally posted by <b>mxr2000</b>!
> last night PJ Ramos score 27 points,22 rebounds,3 assist,1 steal,1 shot block....


I heard in the league in which he plays does not have a 3 second in the key rule so he is able to to just wait for rebounds and/or blocks. Those are still impressive numbers though.


----------



## Sánchez AF

P. J. Ramos could work for us maybe trade donw for a couple of first round picks maybe with Boston
Draft Telfair and Ramos 

pg-Telfair
sg-Vince
sf-Rose
pf- Bosh/Donny
c-Ramos

we have 2 HS players with great Future...

*~Fr¥~*


----------



## Goku

Ramos is starting to sound kind of interesting. He's been putting up sick numbers, and people say it's against pretty good competition. Said he has relied a lot on the 15ft jumper though. Not sure if thats a good thing.

Also said they don't have a 3second rule in his league, so if he wants to, he can camp under the hoop for putbacks, or at the very least take as much time as he likes finding position.


----------



## mxr2000

> Originally posted by <b>Goku</b>!
> Ramos is starting to sound kind of interesting. He's been putting up sick numbers, and people say it's against pretty good competition. Said he has relied a lot on the 15ft jumper though. Not sure if thats a good thing.
> 
> Also said they don't have a 3second rule in his league, so if he wants to, he can camp under the hoop for putbacks, or at the very least take as much time as he likes finding position.


 Ramos team "Criollos" will play tonight against Bayamon (Vaqueros) team there will some scouts from nba teams like Denver scout "Brett Bearup" who liked a lot Ramos,Washington Wizards,San Antonio"GM(R.C. Buford) Himself and (Danny Ferry)". also PJ Ramos did some Private drils for Spurs group.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

yeah, good thing our scouting team isn't on top of things. speaking of which, are we retaining our current scouting staff during this period before the draft?
this looks to be one of the better true big man drafts in some time.


----------



## Goku

> Originally posted by <b>mxr2000</b>!
> Ramos team "Criollos" will play tonight against Bayamon (Vaqueros) team there will some scouts from nba teams like Denver scout "Brett Bearup" who liked a lot Ramos,Washington Wizards,San Antonio"GM(R.C. Buford) Himself and (Danny Ferry)". also PJ Ramos did some Private drils for Spurs group.


thanks for the information.

lol. Not surprised we didn't send a scout. Hopefully this is an isolated case, and we've got someone paying attention to this kid. Probably not considering the lack of funds we throw at this incredibly important part of our organization

I'm assuming we are retaining the same staff. I think someone would have mentioned something if not (although I can't ever remember reading a single post concerning the specifics of our scouting staff.....other than we spend very little on them) 

(That would be some interesting stuff to read too. I couldn't name a single scout from our organization. Kinda funny how scouts in all the major sports fly under the radar, when they perform such a crucial role)


----------



## mxr2000

> Originally posted by <b>Goku</b>!
> 
> 
> thanks for the information.
> 
> lol. Not surprised we didn't send a scout. Hopefully this is an isolated case, and we've got someone paying attention to this kid. Probably not considering the lack of funds we throw at this incredibly important part of our organization
> 
> I'm assuming we are retaining the same staff. I think someone would have mentioned something if not (although I can't ever remember reading a single post concerning the specifics of our scouting staff.....other than we spend very little on them)
> 
> (That would be some interesting stuff to read too. I couldn't name a single scout from our organization. Kinda funny how scouts in all the major sports fly under the radar, when they perform such a crucial role)


 well this acording to a local news paper "El Nuevo Dia" http://www.endi.com/noticiat.asp?newsid={A1418D99-589C-4785-80C6-7C34D1959537}
if you know a bit of panish you can read all about it. there is going to be a lot of scouts the next weeks to come


----------



## macro6

All the centres in this years draft are big projects/potential types and are a couple of years away from contributing. 

I dont see Raptors taking a chance and picking any of these at the 8th spot (maybe Pavel or Ramos). 

Peter John Ramos - Hes recieving a lot of HYPE right now. Based on workouts, I can see him go late lottery to mid first round or pulling out if he doesnt get a gaurantee top 15 pick.

Ha Seung Jin - I dont see whats so special bout him (never seen him play tho). He played high skool b-ball in Korea... And hes working out in LA training with Will Purdue, so never really played against good competition. I believe once he works out for team, he'll be another stiff. Late first round pick at best.

Kosta Perevic - Another project, still years away from contributing.

Rafeal Aroujo - The most ready C in the draft, but with the least upside. 8th spot is too high for him.

Pavel Podkolzine - Highest rated C prospect in the Draft, again, still years away from contributing. I predict BUST.


----------



## Sánchez AF

> well this acording to a local news paper "El Nuevo Dia" http://www.endi.com/noticiat.asp?newsid={A1418D99-589C-4785-80C6-7C34D1959537}
> if you know a bit of panish you can read all about it. there is going to be a lot of scouts the next weeks to come


good article 

*~Fr¥~*


----------



## spuriousjones

i hear that the league ramos plays in does not have a 3second clock. that would definitely affect the stats of a 7'4 center


----------



## AdamIllman

if you're talking about 3 seconds in the key..it's a pretty standard rule in basketball i would guess that whoever told you that is wrong. but thats just my guess


----------



## macro6

Boston Globe with commentary from Draftcity.com: 7-4, 280 pound Puerto Rican teenager Peter John Ramos, who was introduced to the world exclusively by RealGM affiliate Draftcity.com in March, is now being heavily scouted by NBA teams in the lottery the past few weeks. *Chicago, Orlando, Washington, Toronto, Charlotte and others have already sent scouts to watch him play-- along with non-lottery teams like Milwaukee (who would have to trade to acquire a pick) and San Antonio. * Peter May from the Boston Globe shed some new light on Ramos this weekend, quoting an unnamed NBA executive that believed that Ramos would be a top-five pick in this year's draft. May is also reporting that former UNLV coach Bill Bayno has been tutoring Ramos recently in Puerto Rico, and he feels that Ramos is a better prospect then Pavel Podkolzine, whom Bayno also has worked with in the past.

ARTICLE LINK







So Toronto does have scouts in Puerto Rico right now.... thats good to know the Raptors are up to date.


----------



## spuriousjones

i found this on another toronto board a bit back, the post's author lives in PR


> Well, I've seen this guy and I would assure you if he goes to a eastern team, he will be a ROY front runner. He is playing in a better league than the NCAA. A more NBA type league than the NBA. It has the 24 sec shot clock, 8 sec half court, 4qtrs and MUCH more phisical. Here he has faced with very tough competition like José Ortiz (he almost got a cuadruple double vs Canada last august), Jeffrey Aubry (dominated NBDL league, a league that is also inferior to this one BTW), Richard Lugo (great defensive player, starting C for Venezuela), Stanley Roberts (ex-NBA player), etc. The league also plays with much more games per week like the NBA while the NCAA and Europe play one game a week.
> 
> This guy is a secret to the NBA media, but not to teams. Last week an article was published talking about how 14 teams were sending scouts to see him, and the ones to show most interest were the LAC, Bucks and Raptors. So, at least your team knows about him. And, frankly, I think he fits to your team perfectly. The bigs in that league are more like the eastern bigs, so I'm preatty sure he would dominate, especially with guys like Bosh and Marshall around him.


----------



## mxr2000

> Originally posted by <b>spuriousjones</b>!
> i found this on another toronto board a bit back, the post's author lives in PR


last night 22 poinst,12 rebounds, 2 shot blocks,40minutes on the court.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

Man, I'm really intrigued with all this Peter John Ramos talk too.

He sounds a lot like Yao too me, just less finesse more agressive style of play, and I expect him to be a lot more bulkier than Yao. He's also 4 or 5 years younger than Yao, but is obviously not even close to being as complete a player.

I mean, if we trade down, we can grab him, and a point, much like Carter182 suggested. Say we trade down with Utah. We would select Telfair, and Ramos, at 14, and 16. And fill in the roster with some FA's.

Telfair/Alvin
Rose/Mason
VC/Mo-Pete
Bosh/Donny
Foyle/Ramos

Fill our two major holes, and with two potential superstars. But the way the Ramos hype is going now, I doubt he'd be available at 16.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

it seems more and more unlikely that Ramos will drop too far. for all we know he might not even drop to #8. he seems like a much better prospect than diop coming out of HS and he still warranted a top 10 selection. seriously, prospects like Ramos (ie that big with that much mobility) do not come along very often. he may be there at 8 but i doubt that he lasts past the lotto picks.

he might be one of the guys that pushes a guy like livingston, biedrins, smith, or pavel down to us.


----------



## AdamIllman

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> 
> he might be one of the guys that pushes a guy like livingston, biedrins, smith, or pavel down to us.


i cringe at the thought of pavel being on the board when we pick. My gut tells me that he'll be a huge bust..but at the same time he's 7'5. Biedrins on the other hand i would LOVE to have


----------



## spuriousjones

gotta agree. PJ's rise points to him going before eight if anything.

i don't see him knocking off the thrifecta of okafor, howard, deng. but he could go anywhere after that.

i think smith is very good pick for the cats. he's exciting and will give the fans the 'wow' factor as well as hope for the future (but then having a 7'4 guy can give you hope too)

clippers probably won't take a center but they could just a s easily take him and trade for a pointguard.

altanta? what the heck's going on there? pheonix wants an needs a center.

pavel keeps getting slagged as a stiff. but i've read he's more agile than PJ. he has a better touch. he's quicker. and he's bigger.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>AdamIllman</b>!
> 
> 
> i cringe at the thought of pavel being on the board when we pick. My gut tells me that he'll be a huge bust..but at the same time he's 7'5. Biedrins on the other hand i would LOVE to have


i have to say, your gut is pretty ignorant at this point, and so is mine. he is a center prospect unlike few the NBA has seen but he's big and strong and fairly athletic. i don't know if he'll ever be a truly dominant center but not many teams have one of those. i'd prefer to get biedrins too and i'd love for him to drop but i doubt it.

pavel gives us a true center prospect to build around and push Bosh to PF. i really don't see him being worse than bradley and brads has been a capable NBA center for some time now, despite improving neither his body nor his game. 

bottom line, i'd like to land pavel and i see little reason to automatically label him as a bust. the only footage i've seen of him was from his impressive exhibition before last draft and apparently he has become a much better prospect. 

i think he'll be at least as good as olowakandi and that's worth a top 10 pick.


----------



## butr

What are you doing Sky? Building for the future or trying to win now with Vince, because I'll tell you, big men projects don't mature overnight. If you want to win now you had best stay far away from Pavel and the likes. Vince will be in his 30s before Pavel is any good, (if he gets good) its not an indictment of Pavel, its the truth. Darko, Curry and Kwame have a long way to go. JO has only recently come into his own.


As an aside has anyone noticed how much Ivan's position on NBAdraft.net has fluctuated. He is now at #7, and he was way up in the teens before. I hope he does end up there so he can push a decent prospect down to us.


----------



## AdamIllman

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I hope he does end up there so he can push a decent prospect down to us.


ya thats very true it'd be great to see that happen.

as for pavel...you're right skywalker pavel might not be a bust at all. it just depends on where he gets drafted..i dont see him as a top 10 pick but if he's picked anywhere beyond that and becomes a decent center in the league that cant be considered a bust...but i mean if teams take him top 5 i just dont think he can live up to those expectations.


----------



## Sánchez AF

WHAT about the new LOOK of the nbadraft.net 

New Look


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> What are you doing Sky? Building for the future or trying to win now with Vince, because I'll tell you, big men projects don't mature overnight. If you want to win now you had best stay far away from Pavel and the likes. Vince will be in his 30s before Pavel is any good, (if he gets good) its not an indictment of Pavel, its the truth. Darko, Curry and Kwame have a long way to go. JO has only recently come into his own.
> 
> 
> As an aside has anyone noticed how much Ivan's position on NBAdraft.net has fluctuated. He is now at #7, and he was way up in the teens before. I hope he does end up there so he can push a decent prospect down to us.


building for the future. collecting prospects that should be blooming when JR's contract expires. if carter has to wait, so be it. 

i do think that pavel will be able to log 20 mpg or so and should see a lot of improvement between his rookie and sophomore years.

ivan is another prospect i might be willing to wait for.


----------



## butr

I don't necessarily disagree with you. But considering VC's win-now attitude (as previously outlined), do you think he will wait until he is in his 30's for this team to begin to really compete? We already heard rumblings that if KO was kept on that VC would ask to be traded. I don't know that that stuff just comes out of thin air, but I had never heard it before. His meeing with Larry seemed to indicate that he wants to be here at least allowing the new GM to make an impact. If that impact is little, I suspect VC's patience will thin to none. If they make a commitment to him, I would hope he reciprocates. Especially since so many jerks like me advocate trading him in order to turn this thing around.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

Vince should have a supporting cast next season that he can take to the playoffs next season if he plays well. will we make it? who knows. will vince be mad if we miss? of course he will be. 

however, heading back to the lottery with two gems (fingers crossed) already in the fold, i don't think that Vince will be ready to give up on a franchise that with such great turnaround potential. 

if we make the playoffs and lose our pick (might keep it if we just sneak in) Vince should be content knowing that Bosh is going to get even bigger and better for the following year and our rookie should follow suit. the rookie bigs will all have a lot to learn and probably won't see the immediate success that Bosh has had but some of these guys will improve by leaps and bounds over their second and third seasons. 

if Pavel can properly learn the game and doesn't have injury problems, he's going to have an impact on games. we have a team where the opposing bigs always have to help on Vince and Pavel presents a large target that can finish around the basket. 

the guy with the most potential that could be available is Ivan. his work ethic and drive to improve, coupled with his talent and athleticism, could very well yield a Dirk-like player within a year or two.

when you start assembling the freak prospects, only then should you get excited about the future of a franchise. if bosh improves alongside our rook like i expect them to, i don't see vince turning on his team. losing has gotten this team back on the right track, gearing up for a big push while VC is still in his prime (which i don't expect to be shortlived). 

if Vince can't wait, or if we can get a great trade as our projects round into shape alongside Vince, them we move him of course.


----------



## spuriousjones

from what i've read from people who claim to have actually seen ivan first-hand, he's smoke and mirrors, getting outplayed on the ontario high-school level.

pavel is intriguing but he's getting next to no time on a junior level club team

ramos, is dominating in a pro league--i've read its equivalent to some of the somewhat lesser euro-club leages. his stats:


Code:


4/28/04 Cayey at Caguas 85-84
Min---A--M--FG%---A--M--FT%---O--D--Reb--Ast--PF--TO--ST--BS—PTS
37---15-25--60%---3--3-100%---3---4----7---3----2---4---0----3---33

4/24/04 Caguas at Bayamon 66-72
Min---A--M--FG%---A--M--FT%---O--D--Reb--Ast--PF--TO--ST--BS—PTS
40---10-23--43%---2--5--40%---3---9---12---1----1---8---0----2---22

4/22/04 Criollos de Caguas defeated Toritos de Cayey 88-82
Min---A--M--FG%---A--M--FT%---O--D--Reb--Ast--PF--TO--ST--BS—PT S
45---10-21--48%---7--8--88%---6--16---22---3----2---6---1----1---27

4/20/04 Vaqueros de Bayamon at Criollos de Caguas: 85-76
Min---A--M--FG%---A--M--FT%---O--D--Reb--Ast--PF--TO--ST--BS—PTS
40---13-20--65%---4--7---57%---3--6----9---3----1---2---0----3---30

4/17/04 Piratas de Quebradillas at Criollos de Caguas 96-112
Min---A--M--FG%---A--M--FT%---O--D--Reb--Ast--PF--TO--ST--BS-- PT S
36---11-23--48%---2--4---50%---6--5---11---2----5---4---0----4---24

4/15/04 Criollos de Caguas at Capitanes de Arecibo: 87-89
Min---A--M--FG%---A--M--FT%---O--D--Reb--Ast--PF--TO--ST--BS--PTS
31----7-20--35%---2--2--100%---0--6----6---0----3---1---1----4---16

4 /13/04 Criollos de Caguas at Isabela: 87-75
Min---A--M--FG%---A--M--FT%---O--D--Reb--Ast--PF--TO--ST--BS--PTS
36---15-35--60%---0--0---00%---9-11---20---0----3---4---1----1---30

4 /11/04 Criollos de Caguas at Cangrejeros de Santurce: 84-86
Min---A--M--FG%---A--M--FT%---O--D--Reb--Ast--PF--TO--ST--BS--PTS
36----9-18--50%---2--2--100%---3--3----6---2----5---3---0----1---20

4 /7/04 Isabela at Caguas: 95-97
Min---A--M--FG%---A--M--FT%---O--D--Reb--Ast--PF--TO--ST--BS--PTS
36----8-19--42%---5--7---71%---1--3----4---6----2---4---0----3---21

i take ramos


----------



## SkywalkerAC

ramos is my pick too but i have the feeling he'll be gone.

Ivan can move well and shoot well at 7'1 and has already gotten a lot stronger. we'll see how he looks next week.


----------



## spuriousjones

ramos could be gone.

aside from okafor and howard, he could be the top bigman and he could even slide in ahead of them.

teams ahead of us that need a center:
orlando, charolotte, atlanta, pheonix

teams that could want one:
washington, clippers

and if any of the lottery teams behind us jump, they could take one too.

all my knowedge of the bigmen aside from okafor is second hand but Ramos is definitely my guy. i see him able to help out right away, raw defence and 18 years of age and all

he could even be the best pick for us if we get no.3

i definitely don't like the idea of taking ivan with the 8th. i'm one of the teams ahead of us falls in love with him.

just thought of something... LAC could have a lot of interest in Ha. there's a massive korean community in LA. maybe he's not the best bigman at their pick but he'll have the highest marketing reward.


----------



## Sánchez AF

> teams ahead of us that need a center:
> orlando, charolotte, atlanta, pheonix


Orlando---okafor or Howard
Charlotte-they are looking for the best player available (deng smith)
Atlanta--- a player for full his arena and make his team popular
Phonix---could be


----------



## Goku

In an article on Ivan Chiraev in the Toronto Sun, the raps "President of Player Personnel" pretty much said we aren't interested.

no suprise, but his reasoning was that 'we need help now'. It sounds like we might be taking the most nba ready player. I don't think it means we'll be picking Rafael Arrujo or anything, but if it's between Gordon/JoshSmith, it'll be Gordon. If one of the euro centers is there, I think we might be trading the pick. 

or maybe it's just a meaningless comment. we don't have a gm. I thought it was kinda interesting.


----------



## macro6

wow, the article mentioned nbadraft.net....



Cool read, NBA scouts are pretty much split on Ivan.


----------



## butr

Livingston officially declared last night.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=1794820


Harris is wavering.


http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?id=1794868


A wildcard??

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2001919038_bigguy04.html

Ivan signs a real agent, Bill Duffy.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20040504/CHIRIAEV04/TPSports/TopStories


----------



## spuriousjones

livingston would be fabulous. livingston/rose/carter could really be something special. and think of the decadesof joy we could receive from he and bosh


----------



## SkywalkerAC

pick the best big man available. with 7 or so good looking big men, at least one good one will drop to us. Ramos, Biedrins, Pavel, Ha, Ivan, Perovic, or Jefferson will round out our frontcourt of the future.

pick best PG in second round. this guy may not be ready to start but Duhon or Huertas could be effective backups behind Jalen and AW and could really blossom in the NBA.

OR

pick Gordon or Harris (i am leaning toward gordon) and take varejao or slokar in the second.


----------



## Ballyhoo

Let's say the Raptors get lucky and win the 1st pick. What should they do? I actually wouldn't mind trading down. I think this draft is deep and not top heavy. Neither Okafor or Howard blow me away. When was the last time the 1st overall was traded during or before the draft? Webber for Penny?

Skywalker you have converted me into a Jefferson fan. I like what I read about him. Sounds like he uses his size but doesn't rely on it, and knows the game and has good fundamentals. I'm very wary of these 7+ footers that just get dunks and rebounds because they are bigger than their opponents, and have no real touch or footwork.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>Ballyhoo</b>!
> Let's say the Raptors get lucky and win the 1st pick. What should they do? I actually wouldn't mind trading down. I think this draft is deep and not top heavy. Neither Okafor or Howard blow me away. When was the last time the 1st overall was traded during or before the draft? Webber for Penny?
> 
> Skywalker you have converted me into a Jefferson fan. I like what I read about him. Sounds like he uses his size but doesn't rely on it, and knows the game and has good fundamentals. I'm very wary of these 7+ footers that just get dunks and rebounds because they are bigger than their opponents, and have no real touch or footwork.


i think perovic probably has the best footwork and touch of the bunch, which is, yes, somewhat concerning. the footspeed of NBA centers is pretty quick these days and there have been plenty of big bodied centers that have come in and been ineffective. 

i don't know if they're stiffs, per se, but do these guys stand a chance of covering okur and his ilk away from the basket? big bodied centers need to provide good defense and rebounding- are any of the bigs going to excel at this during their rookie contract? obviously it's hard to tell at this point. 

very tough decision but jefferson definitely shouldn't be overlooked.


----------



## Ballyhoo

If the Raptors win the 1st overall, should they trade it to Utah for Utah's three 1st rounders (14, 16, 21)? Would Utah do it? Most years I would value the 1st overall way more than 3 mid 1sts, but this year I don't know. Nbadraft.net has Pavel, JR Smith, and Robert Swift going 14, 16, 21, with Telfair available at 16, and Jefferson available at 21. Draftcity has Telfair at 14, Araujo at 16, and Jefferson at 21, with Nelson available at 14, and JR Smith and Swift available at 21. 

Would you rather have Emeka or 3 youngsters with lots of potential?


----------



## Goku

I'd definitely prefer to trade the pick, but not for 3 mid first rounders. I'd trade down a few spots for the guy we want, and unload salary. Or trade down for a player who makes sense for our team, and try to get another half decent player thrown in.

If Utah was the onlly option, I might still make the trade. Especially if Okafur measures in under 6'9.


----------



## The Mad Viking

Okafor is too good to pass up. Perfect for Toronto, can play strong and smart inside D and rebound from the beginning. Not likely to be much of a scorer, but could easily be a Ben Wallace on D.

Dwight Howard might be worth it if you had patience. Nice skills on offence, solid rebounder and a natural shot blocker. Rasheed Wallace-like.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>Ballyhoo</b>!
> If the Raptors win the 1st overall, should they trade it to Utah for Utah's three 1st rounders (14, 16, 21)? Would Utah do it? Most years I would value the 1st overall way more than 3 mid 1sts, but this year I don't know. Nbadraft.net has Pavel, JR Smith, and Robert Swift going 14, 16, 21, with Telfair available at 16, and Jefferson available at 21. Draftcity has Telfair at 14, Araujo at 16, and Jefferson at 21, with Nelson available at 14, and JR Smith and Swift available at 21.
> 
> Would you rather have Emeka or 3 youngsters with lots of potential?


okarfor for Telfair, Araujo, and JR Smith

or

Jefferson, Nelson, and Pavel

you'd be an absolute idiot not to make either trade. who's to say if those players will be available but this is looking like a very deep draft. okafor would be great for the raps but we're lacking depth and a trade like that would be a godsend.

Utah looks like they could be back in the elite of the league before too long. i doubt they'd do a 3 for one, these picks are plenty valuable.


----------



## Goku

Just by way of comparisson 1st vs. 14/16/21 last few years

2003 Lebron vs. Luke Ridnour/Marcus Banks/Boris Diaw

2002 Yao vs. Fred Jones/Jiri Welsch/Quyntel Woods

2001 Kwame vs. Troy Murphy/Kirk Haston/Joe Forte

2000 Kenyon Martin vs. Mateen Cleaves/ Hedo Turkolu/ MoPete

doesn't really mean anything, but 1st overall has been much more valuable than 14/16/21 the last few years.


----------



## macro6

If we win the Lottery,

I rather draft a proven starter(emeka) or a star quality(dwight) player with the 1st pick then to trade it for 3 questionable players. I would trade the pick + alvin/lamond's contract and move down a few spots, but not for 3 mid round picks. Plus, our scouts havent have too much success drafting between 14-29 (M.Bradley, C.Jefferies). Id take a Kenyen Martin over Cleaves, Hedo, and Mopete anyday. 

Its nice to have a 3 first round picks, but any team would be CRAZY to trade their 1st overall pick for 3 mid picks, even if its a poor draft year.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

it's not realistic but Telfair, Dorrell (to bring a new guy into the equation), and Pavel for Okafor straight up? you HAVE to take that trade, ESPECIALLY if you're a team like the Raptors that is incredibly short on players and needs to start building towards a championship. Yes, these guys will need some seasoning and Okafor is ready to go but stacking your team with young, talented, and relatively cheap players would be a huge step in the right direction. Gives the option of keeping VC if he can take the team to the next level, or going with a full youth movement and trading him. 

but

Telfair
VC
Dorrell Wright
Bosh
Pavel

with the right players to complement them, could rule the east.


----------



## macro6

Like Goku stated, if you look at the past 5-10 draft years, the 1st overall pick is MUCH MUCH more valuable then the 14,16 and 21st pick.


And if history is right, theres a good chance(Utah's 3 picks) 1 or 2 of the 3 picks will actually become decent. Sure if we can pick the "RIGHT" players we might get good players, but we're talking bout the Raptors scouting system here...... they just suck. Its nice to have deph, but a very good player(Emeka,Loul,Dwight) can make up for a lot our team's deficiencies than having 3 rookies with "P"otential to fill in the holes.

if its our 8th pick for Utah's 14 & 16, I would do it. But I like Ben Gordon though..... so keep the pick and draft him


----------



## spuriousjones

i would trade the 1st to utah for their picks IF they also sent AK47 back


----------



## Ballyhoo

They're not trading AK47.  Anyway, I fully realize that most years the 1st overall is way more valuable. This is why Utah might do the trade. The ideal draft is getting that franchise player you can build around for 10 years, and 1st is the best place to get that player. But this year I don't see any franchise players, but I do see a lot of players with potential. Plus the Raptors desperately need depth. 

macro6 has a good point though. Trading down means trusting the Raptor's scouting staff, which hasn't been a good move in the past.


----------



## macro6

Im very intrigued with Al Jefferson though... Looks great in the videos Video 

Maybe we can aquire a mid round draft pick for Donyell to draft Big Al.



Shuan Livingston looked good too... Video


----------



## Sánchez AF

a very interesting player to draft in the second round is aleksander vujacic


----------



## Goku

> Originally posted by <b>Carter182</b>!
> a very interesting player to draft in the second round is aleksander vujacic


I like this part- "watching him, you can see that he has what it takes to be a deadly shooter in the nba" He sounds fantastic, but so does just about every prospect they profile.

he sounds pretty interesting though. Thats the first time I've ever heard of him.


----------



## Goku

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> Im very intrigued with Al Jefferson though... Looks great in the videos Video
> 
> Maybe we can aquire a mid round draft pick for Donyell to draft Big Al.
> 
> 
> 
> Shuan Livingston looked good too... Video


awesome links. Thanks. I'm starting to like Livingston more and more. Draftcity now has him going 7th. Maybe he'll actually slip to us.


----------



## Goku

just out of curiousity.....

who would you pick if we landed the 3rd?

also, who would you take between Ben Gordon/Shaun Livingston? (if he slips, and we are picking 8th)


----------



## Sánchez AF

> just out of curiousity.....
> 
> who would you pick if we landed the 3rd?
> 
> who would you take between Ben Gordon/Shaun Livingston (if he slips)


3rd---Loul Deng


----------



## SkywalkerAC

i'd probably trade for depth with the number 3 pick, if possible. keeping it i'd probably take Deng or maybe Biedrins. 

would be great to pick up a versatile forward to push Carter back to the SG position. of course this would require keeping Rose at the point (for now) but i don't think that would be a problem with Deng in the fold. 

Rose/Keyon Dooling (scoring PG)
VC/Rasual Butler
Deng/Murray
Bosh/Bonner
MLE FA/Moiso

that looks like an up and coming lineup to me. Great length, scoring ability, defense, and these guys know how to play the game and get wins. the MLE FA would be a veteran strongbody, over 6'10.

i predict our second rounder will make the team this year, looks like a decent second round and we need to fill the roster any way we can. Duhon or a good euro point would be nice, and there are some decent backup power forwards. Ha Seung Jin isn't going to last into the second round, i'm pretty sure of that.


----------



## macro6

for our 2nd round pick, I would like the Raps to draft a big bruiser or a defensive/slasher swingman.

Arthur Johnson 6-9 265 PF Missouri Sr.
Jaime Lloreda 6-9 246 PF LSU Sr.
Romain Sato 6-5 195 SG Xavier Sr.
Rickey Paulding 6-5 200 SG Missouri Sr.
Brandon Bass

are my picks for the 2nd round.


----------



## bigbabyjesus

This is the kind of trade that has to happen if we get lucky and win the lottery.

Raptors get: Larry Hughes, Christian Laettner, #3.
Wizards get: Alvin Williams, Lamond Murray, #1,40.

Two bad contracts, for another two, but the two we receive are expiring. This gives us three expiring contracts in Hughes, Laettner, and Donny if we dont trade him.

Follow up trade:

Raptors get: J.Johnson, L.Barbosa, J.White, H.Eisley, #7.
Suns get: V.Carter, re-signed M.Peterson, J.Moiso.

Select Dwight Howard at #3(assuming Chicago takes Deng).
Select Shaun Livingston at #7(hope to god he falls, if not take Gordon)

sign a couple free agents.. 

the beautiful lineup........

L.Barbosa/H.Eisley/S.Livingston
J.Rose/L.Hughes/L.Hunter
J.Johnson/B.Cardinal
C.Bosh/D.Marshall/C.Laettner
D.Howard/J.White/R.Traylor

Young, athletic lineup with crazy potential. Bosh and Howard would split time at C, with Howard starting because he's stronger. Two very nice sixth/seventh men in Donny, and Hughes. Not to mention we'd have enough money to sign a MAX player next season. And maybe Phoenix wouldn't do that trade, but I'd like to think they would, they still have Marion as trade bait and major cap room.


----------



## macro6

sum Devin Harris highlights...


http://uwbadgers.com/audio_visual/mbb/video/0304/harris27.asx

http://uwbadgers.com/audio_visual/mbb/video/0304/harris62.asx

http://uwbadgers.com/audio_visual/mbb/video/0304/harris65.asx

http://uwbadgers.com/audio_visual/mbb/video/0304/harris64.asx

http://uwbadgers.com/audio_visual/mbb/video/0304/harris61.asx

http://uwbadgers.com/audio_visual/mbb/video/0304/harris57.asx

http://uwbadgers.com/audio_visual/mbb/video/0304/harris58.asx

http://uwbadgers.com/audio_visual/mbb/video/0304/harris08.asx

impressed?

its gonna be tough choosing between Gordon and Harris.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

thanks for the highlights.  the kid has good hops and very good body controll. i was hoping for a few nifty passes but there are game highlights elsewhere on BBB.

would be nice to have the choice between Livingston and Gordon but let's just hope one of them is still there at 8.


----------



## SkywalkerAC

Andriuskevicius is coming out this year if he is projected in the top 10, probably knocking someone down to us but he could be available for the raps. would you guys be ready to draft and develop our true center of the future? do you prefer Biedrins at this point? i'm not sure that Martynas has performed well lately but he seems like a great talent (that will not be ready in year one).


----------



## Sánchez AF

he will be a 10+ pick 

i still think we should trade our pick and players for multiple picks this is a good a deep Draft with 3 first round picks (jazz trade) we can pick Jammer Nelson, Pavel or PJ Ramos or M. Andriuskevicius
and a sf like childress


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## butr

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> sum Devin Harris highlights...
> 
> 
> http://uwbadgers.com/audio_visual/mbb/video/0304/harris27.asx
> 
> http://uwbadgers.com/audio_visual/mbb/video/0304/harris62.asx
> 
> http://uwbadgers.com/audio_visual/mbb/video/0304/harris65.asx
> 
> http://uwbadgers.com/audio_visual/mbb/video/0304/harris64.asx
> 
> http://uwbadgers.com/audio_visual/mbb/video/0304/harris61.asx
> 
> http://uwbadgers.com/audio_visual/mbb/video/0304/harris57.asx
> 
> http://uwbadgers.com/audio_visual/mbb/video/0304/harris58.asx
> 
> http://uwbadgers.com/audio_visual/mbb/video/0304/harris08.asx
> 
> impressed?
> 
> its gonna be tough choosing between Gordon and Harris.


 I have a feeling he might be gone before 8.


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## spuriousjones

rumour has it Andriuskevicius is in the draft due to a wink from the Suns. if they let him stay with Sabonis working on his game for a year they'll end up getting a better player while freeing up capspace for their free agent summer of love.

i really hope Biedrins falls to us. i take him over Gordon, Livingston, Harris, Igoudala and the other names tossed around.

big and growing, quick, skilled, defence first, block machine, back to the basket game--and plays around the hoop, quick learner. this kid and bosh playing and learning and getting better and stronger together makes me excited


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## butr

I'd like to know more about Ramos before I commit to Biedrins.


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## macro6

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> I have a feeling he might be gone before 8.


I hope not.

Livingston, Gordon or Harris will most likely be available when we pick, hopefully.


My draft ranking (assuming we stay at the 8th spot)

1.a Ben Gordon
1.b Devin Harris
3. Andris Biedrins (he'll go no.1 if he has good workouts)
4.a Andre Igoudala
4.b Josh Smith
5. Peter John Ramos (im still not sold on him, ppl over at RealGm are hyping him up, i'll reserve my judgements after workouts)


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## spuriousjones

i don't see Biedrins passing Okafor and Howard, even Deng. the Darko effect will scare teams the same way the Gasol effect drew them to all things tall and euro.

the hype says Gordon can do a lot that he hasn't shown in college. he'll rise. the Wade effect will also help him.

i have a feeling we're going to pick either 3 or 9


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## The Mad Viking

If Martynas is available, I believe we must take him.

Barring injury, he will be the man who unseats Yao Ming from the throne of Best NBA Center. So what if it is in 2008?

The kid is beyond unreal.


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## macro6

Today's ESPN INSIDERS.

Ben Gordon, PJ Ramos and Damir Omerhodzic workouts


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## SkywalkerAC

> Originally posted by <b>macro6</b>!
> Today's ESPN INSIDERS.
> 
> Ben Gordon, PJ Ramos and Damir Omerhodzic workouts


for who?


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## djmyte

I say the Raps should look for Gordon or Beidrins at 8(possibly Harris if he works out well). If none are available and if no one else slips, trade down with either Boston(#15 and #24) or Utah(#16 and #21) and look for guys like Telfair, Petro, Jefferson, Aldridge, Wright and Swift.


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## slash_010

Does anyone know anything about Donta Smith?


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## speedythief

> Originally posted by <b>slash_010</b>!
> Does anyone know anything about Donta Smith?


He is a 6-7 small forward who was supposed to go to Louisville this year, but something happened (either he changed his mind, got different advice, thought he wouldn't get playing time, whatever) and he stayed in SoE Illinois. From what I've heard, he needs to work on his jump shot, but he has good size for his position and he is athletic. Him and the other guy we're working-out have the same agent, and he's pimping both of them hard to try and get them into the second round.


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## Sánchez AF

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> 
> 
> He is a 6-7 small forward who was supposed to go to Louisville this year, but something happened (either he changed his mind, got different advice, thought he wouldn't get playing time, whatever) and he stayed in SoE Illinois. From what I've heard, he needs to work on his jump shot, but he has good size for his position and he is athletic. Him and the other guy we're working-out have the same agent, and he's pimping both of them hard to try and get them into the second round.


another HS player i think he can be a good second round pick


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