# Greivis Vasquez Re-Signs (2 years/$13 million)



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

This is the first truly questionable move that Masai has made this offseason(of course, not counting the drafting of Bruno). I don't think Vasquez is worth more than 4 mil a year much less over 6. I guess the only positive here is that it's only a 2 year deal.

This also means that we no longer have room to add a backup SF and center. Not happy with this at all.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

6.5? Whaaaaat?

I like the guy, but come on man.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

This is our rotation so far.

JV/Hansbrough/Hayes/Nogueira?
Amir/Patterson
Ross/Fields/Bruno?/DeAndre Daniels?
DeRozan/Lou Williams
Lowry/Vasquez


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

This doesn't really have much effect in terms of our flexibility, as I'm quite sure the MLE is still preserved. There will have been minimal room to operate below the cap even if he were to be signed for 4-5M so we're not really hamstrung at all. Maybe it cuts into some cap space next season but this isn't be an awful contract to unload. I agree that it's probably a bit much for Vasquez but since it doesn't really affect what we can do with personnel I'm not too mad.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Glad to see him back because he clearly loves the organization but damn that's a lot of money for a back-up point guard.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

-James- said:


> This doesn't really have much effect in terms of our flexibility, as I'm quite sure the MLE is still preserved. There will have been minimal room to operate below the cap even if he were to be signed for 4-5M so we're not really hamstrung at all. Maybe it cuts into some cap space next season but this isn't be an awful contract to unload. I agree that it's probably a bit much for Vasquez but since it doesn't really affect what we can do with personnel I'm not too mad.


Very good post. 

@Knick Killer, $6.5 million annual salary is on the high end for a backup point guard, but we value Vasquez as more than that and the reasonable two-year term allows us to maintain our flexibility. Also, Vasquez has proven himself a capable starter in the league, averaging career-highs of 13.9 points and 9.0 assists while finishing second in Most Improved Player voting with New Orleans in 2012-13. Vasquez, Lou Williams and Lowry in the backcourt is nice, it's deep enough to serve as insurance if any were to go down with injury.

Going back to @-James- in response to @seifer0406, the NBA salary cap is set at just over $63 million for next season, the tax level at $76.8 million, so we figure to have most of our mid-level exception - roughly $5 million - to spend on the final three open roster spots. 

Overall, I'm happy.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

just need 1 vet back up c, hopefully ujri can unload hayes big salary


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Junkyard Dog13 said:


> just need 1 vet back up c, hopefully ujri can unload hayes big salary


Looks like we are keeping Bebe, Masai is currently working on buying him out of his current contract.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Porn Player said:


> Looks like we are keeping Bebe, Masai is currently working on buying him out of his current contract.


Nogueira? Seriously?


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

this rate for 4 years was what i would have liked to see for vasquez as our starting pg if lowry was going to cost up more than 10mil per season. since we already shelled out so much for lowry i was surprised to see him signed for this much. he's a good player but i don't like the idea of paying this much for a backup.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

c_dog said:


> this rate for 4 years was what i would have liked to see for vasquez as our starting pg if lowry was going to cost up more than 10mil per season. since we already shelled out so much for lowry i was surprised to see him signed for this much. he's a good player but i don't like the idea of paying this much for a backup.


Why? Vasquez as our starting PG wouldn't have won us shit. 

Vasquez on this deal behind Lowry gives us a 2 years window to accomplish something in the East.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

I somewhat agree, @c_dog, it's probably a reach for a backup, and I also thought Patterson for $6M was a reach as well, to be honest. 

But realistically if we had shaved $1M, $2M, and another $2M off of the starting salaries for Patterson, Vazquez and Lowry, respectively, by my calculations we would be a little less than $5M below the cap which is _less_ than what we are allowed to offer with the mid-level exception. Again, these "overpays", which I agree are probably too much, will have no functional effect on roster flexibility since neither these "ideal" contracts, nor the real life deals see us crossing into the luxury tax. So in the end, I really don't care given this is someone else's money. 

We've been overpaying for our guys, but I don't think it's been by nearly enough to get frustrated over.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

Porn Player said:


> Why? Vasquez as out starting PG wouldn't have won us shit.
> 
> Vasquez on this deal behind Lowry gives us a 2 years window to accomplish something in the East.


vasquez as our starting pg might be enough to make the playoffs in the east. we can save that 12 mil to sign someone who may be more of a difference maker for us. i'm a believer in signing players to what they're worth. i'm looking at the grizzlies roster and they don't have any superstars but they have a bunch of good players on reasonable deals. i think that's how the raptors should construct their team as well, around good players on fair deals.

lowry had a great season and i understand a lot of fans really like him right now. but i'm just not sold given his tract record, not at that price. but what's done is done. i think adding lowry might get the raptors to the second round whereas with just vasquez they'd be fighting for the last few playoff spots. not sure if that's worth 12mil.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> lowry had a great season and i understand a lot of fans really like him right now. but i'm just not sold given his tract record, not at that price. but what's done is done. i think adding lowry might get the raptors to the second round whereas with just vasquez they'd be fighting for the last few playoff spots. not sure if that's worth 12mil.


I don't understand your constant pessimism especially considering the nature of the current Eastern conference. Assuming that Miami keeps its core, which other team in the East are beyond our reach in terms of talent? The Pacers barely made it out of the first round and are almost certain to be worse next year without Stephenson. The Nets are paying 90 mil in luxury tax next year for a declining roster not to mention plenty of uncertainty after Kidd's departure. The Bulls could be a good team but it all depends on Rose. Outside of Washington I don't see any other team in the East that's clearly on the upswing. To write us off as being limited to the second round seems awfully pessimistic in my opinion.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> I don't understand your constant pessimism especially considering the nature of the current Eastern conference. Assuming that Miami keeps its core, which other team in the East are beyond our reach in terms of talent? The Pacers barely made it out of the first round and are almost certain to be worse next year without Stephenson. The Nets are paying 90 mil in luxury tax next year for a declining roster not to mention plenty of uncertainty after Kidd's departure. The Bulls could be a good team but it all depends on Rose. Outside of Washington I don't see any other team in the East that's clearly on the upswing. To write us off as being limited to the second round seems awfully pessimistic in my opinion.


it's called being realistic. last season was the only season where the club actually exceeded expectations in 20 years of raptors history. the fact that the eastern conference was absolute poop and half the teams were tanking probably helped with their overall record too. they lost to the geriatric nets in the first round and made blatche look like an all-star. (all this despite lowry supposedly being a superior player to deron williams as porn player would claim)

you think a core of derozan, valaciunas, lowry is enough to compete for an NBA championship? it's a second round team, maybe ECF if(big big if) everything is clicking on all cylinders in the pathetic eastern conference. i would like my team to be a little better than to just settle for mediocrity.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> it's called being realistic. last season was the only season where the club actually exceeded expectations in 20 years of raptors history. the fact that the eastern conference was absolute poop and half the teams were tanking probably helped with their overall record too. they lost to the geriatric nets in the first round and made blatche look like an all-star. (all this despite lowry supposedly being a superior player to deron williams as porn player would claim)
> 
> you think a core of derozan, valaciunas, lowry is enough to compete for an NBA championship? it's a second round team, maybe ECF if(big big if) everything is clicking on all cylinders in the pathetic eastern conference. i would like my team to be a little better than to just settle for mediocrity.


You didn't answer my question, which team in the East do you think we have no chance of beating next year?

The bottom line is there are going to be 2 teams that make it out of the 2nd round and I don't see how we don't have a chance to be one of those teams. And Lowry did outplay Deron Williams, go ahead and look up the stats. I don't know what you're talking about with Andray Blatche, he averaged 7 points a game while playing 15 min a night during our series. It was our inability to guard Joe Johnson that cost us the series. Our inexperience was also a big reason. If the 2 teams meet again next year I don't expect Terrence Ross to be a complete non factor and I don't expect DeRozan to disappear multiple games.

As for competing for a championship the answer is no, the current core that we have isn't championship caliber. However we have a very good foundation with DeRozan/Lowry/Jonas. We have a boatload of cap room next year that we can use to add to the core.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

You are being unrealistic. Only a handful of teams are legitimate title contenders each season and it's usually based on luck, or the prestige of the franchise (Dallas is an outlier here). There's a reason that the same handful of teams win it every year. Is $12M worth the difference between being a fringe playoff team and a championship contender? Hell yeah it is. That is not being mediocre, that is being a good team.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I also would like to know the player that's not Kyle Lowry that we can *sign* for 12 million that will significantly bolster our chance of competing for a championship. Don't tell me that Tony Parker only makes 12.5 mil because the reality is you're not signing Parker as a *free agent* for that kind of money. The same goes with Steph Curry. Just because Curry makes 10.5 mil shouldn't give you the illusion that a top 5 point guard in the NBA is worth 10.5 mil. You need to consider the scenarios of each player when they signed those contracts. Just because DeRozan makes less than 10 mil a year doesn't mean we simply ignore the risk the Raptors took back then by signing DD to a big contract before he proved himself to be a good player. Just because Curry makes 10.5 mil doesn't mean that we should ignore the risk that the Warriors took by giving him a long term contract when his ankles broke every 5 games. Just because Parker makes 12.5 mil a year doesn't mean that we should ignore the high championship possibilities that the Spurs provide for Parker.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

regarding which teams we can't beat, it's still too early in the offseason. things can change really quickly. but pacers and one of cavs/heat should be the class of the east. i think wizards can become really good, and if rose is playing at even 80% they will be pretty good. hawks with horford and teague remain pretty consistent. i'm not quite ready to write off the nets yet because i know people here love to say how deron williams is washed up but i think he's still a top pg in the league. even with a geriatric supporting cast they can still give the raptors run of their money. then there is the knicks with melo. hornets with hayward will be interesting to watch.

i think the raptors can be anywhere from being the fourth best team to fighting for the playoffs with lowry. the team needs to continue to play well. the east is weak but they still need to play hard every night.

you can't call this team a contender because they realistically have no chance of making it out of ECF. at best they are a good team that makes it to the second round. at this point i would be happy just to see the raptors win one playoff series(haven't seen that in years).

and i'm not sure who the raps can sign with that 12mil on lowry, but i do know it's overpaying. certainly if one of the young guys were to develop into a good player you might rather lock them up long term. it would suck to be unable to retain your guys because you overcommited to lowry and you don't want to pay luxury tax.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> regarding which teams we can't beat, it's still too early in the offseason. things can change really quickly. but pacers and one of cavs/heat should be the class of the east. i think wizards can become really good, and if rose is playing at even 80% they will be pretty good. hawks with horford and teague remain pretty consistent. i'm not quite ready to write off the nets yet because i know people here love to say how deron williams is washed up but i think he's still a top pg in the league. even with a geriatric supporting cast they can still give the raptors run of their money. then there is the knicks with melo. hornets with hayward will be interesting to watch.


It's analysis like this that make me question whether or not you actually follow the NBA. Did you miss the Pacers struggle last year in the playoffs? They were 1 game away from losing to a team with a starting 5 of Milisap/Carroll/Antic/Teague/Korver and you're telling me that we have very little shot at beating them? You are more of a homer to the Pacers than any Pacer fan. Moreover next year they are almost certainly going to lose one of their best players to free agency and we still wouldn't have a chance against them? That's just ridiculous.

Wizards can definitely be good but they are also unproven. On paper we are pretty evenly matched as long as JV and Ross continue to develop. Wall is definitely better than Lowry but DeRozan is currently better than Beal. Again, I don't see us being unable to compete with them.

As for the Bulls it depends on the health of Rose. I would be surprised if he makes it all the way back and the Bulls become one of the top teams again. That would make one hell of a comeback story if it is true.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> you can't call this team a contender because they realistically have no chance of making it out of ECF. at best they are a good team that makes it to the second round. at this point i would be happy just to see the raptors win one playoff series(haven't seen that in years).
> 
> and i'm not sure who the raps can sign with that 12mil on lowry, but i do know it's overpaying. certainly if one of the young guys were to develop into a good player you might rather lock them up long term. it would suck to be unable to retain your guys because you overcommited to lowry and you don't want to pay luxury tax.


I'm not calling the team a contender but I'm going to say that they have a realistic shot of making it to the ECF. I would be surprised if they don't at least make it to the 2nd round next year.

As for Lowry's contract you valuing him at 8mil/year is clearly far from his market value. You do know that at 8 mil a year he would be making the same as Avery Bradley and slightly less than Channing Fyre. He would be making half of what Gordon Hayward and Chandler Parsons. How much a player is worth is determined by how much other players are making. In the year 2014 8 mil a year just doesn't get you as far as in years past.

I also don't see how an alternative method to spend that money would result in us being contenders considering that whoever you have in mind would likely cost more than what you have in mind. Moreover even if we go by your player value, overpaying a guy by 4 mil shouldn't be the difference between being contenders and being a mediocre team like you are suggesting.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

Pacers are the #1 #2 team in the east. They will be fine even without Stevenson. Someone will step up at that sg spot may it be Evan turner or some undervalued young cat waiting for his chance. The team was in a slump but it doesn't take away what they accomplished in the last 2 years. With Lebron in Cleveland as I highly suspected, the pacers remain a top 2 team in the east. If you think 2 months of a historic slump changes how good the pacers are then you sure have a short term memory. I guess that's why you think Lowry is worth 12 mil.

My problem with Lowry is doubting he can live up to his contract. Dude had a career season after being a disappointment in his first season here. How good is Lowry really? I suspect somewhere between 2012-2013 and 2013-2014. I maintain that I would have paid no more than 10mil per year.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> Pacers are the #1 #2 team in the east. They will be fine even without Stevenson. Someone will step up at that sg spot may it be Evan turner or some undervalued young cat waiting for his chance. The team was in a slump but it doesn't take away what they accomplished in the last 2 years. With Lebron in Cleveland as I highly suspected, the pacers remain a top 2 team in the east. If you think 2 months of a historic slump changes how good the pacers are then you sure have a short term memory. I guess that's why you think Lowry is worth 12 mil.
> 
> My problem with Lowry is doubting he can live up to his contract. Dude had a career season after being a disappointment in his first season here. How good is Lowry really? I suspect somewhere between 2012-2013 and 2013-2014. I maintain that I would have paid no more than 10mil per year.


Did you even watch Evan Turner play? He was so bad last year with the Pacers that he's unlikely to be back with the team this year. Which "Young Cat" are you talking about? It surely can't be someone that's on the Pacers right now. Is it Trevor Ariza lol? Xavier Henry?

Again, let me remind you that I never said that the Pacers are _worse_ than the Raptors. All I said was given what happened last year in the playoffs it is ludicrous to suggest that they are unbeatable with our current core. Not even Pacer fans would agree with you on that point.

When you feel like explaining to me how an extra 2 mil a year would change the fate of this team or heck, how to better spend that 12 mil a year in order to turn the team into a contender go ahead and throw it out there. This better not be let's rebuild and tank and hope for the best.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

The difference between $10M and $12M of someone else's money shouldn't be a big deal to anyone, especially if it has no effect on his or her team's ability to change its roster.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

btw, I'm not knocking on the strategy of tanking for talent. That is a viable strategy but the purpose of tanking is to acquire a foundation of young talents which we now have with DeRozan/Jonas/Ross. It is unreasonable to repeat the process until a Durant or Lebron comes along because theres a higher possibility that those players never come. With the current developments I'm happy with where the Raptors are currently at and I'm optimistic with the team's outlook for the future.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

i'm not even talking about rebuilding either. just signing good players to good value contracts and letting players who aren't worth it walk.

those overpaid contracts always end up biting people in the butt. it just affects your flexibility. there are multiple scenarios where you might need that extra 2 mils of cap space. you've all been watching basketball long enough to know. so don't give me this "but what's 2 mil when it's not your own money" talk.

pacers will find someone. like i said it's too early in the offseason to know. raptors addressed the sf issue with james johnson. pacers may find a courtney lee level sg to fill that position fairly easily. those are serviceable guys who can be added to teams if GM's were less lazy. instead of bidding for the hottest agents actually do some homework. think outside the box sometimes.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> i'm not even talking about rebuilding either. just signing good players to good value contracts and letting players who aren't worth it walk.
> 
> those overpaid contracts always end up biting people in the butt. it just affects your flexibility. there are multiple scenarios where you might need that extra 2 mils of cap space. you've all been watching basketball long enough to know. so don't give me this "but what's 2 mil when it's not your own money" talk.
> 
> pacers will find someone. like i said it's too early in the offseason to know. raptors addressed the sf issue with james johnson. pacers may find a courtney lee level sg to fill that position fairly easily. those are serviceable guys who can be added to teams if GM's were less lazy. instead of bidding for the hottest agents actually do some homework. think outside the box sometimes.


I don't really know what to say other to laugh at this point. If your GM's grand championship plan crumbles due to 2 million dollars chances are you never had a championship plan to begin with. What you have in reality is an illusion of a championship plan and a hilarious sad excuse to why that plan failed. But jokes aside I don't really know where you're going with this. If we establish that Lowry is worth 10 mil a year and it's better to have him than not to have him (you still have the opportunity to argue why it's better to let Lowry walk and provide an alternative plan in that case), then this discussion about his contract is closed in my books. 2 mil a year just not worth the time to argue in my opinion.

As for the Pacers discussion, sure they could strike gold in free agency, but if I'm betting on it it's far more likely that they get someone that's not nearly as good as Stephenson. Again, whether or not they do really makes no difference to our little discussion. The point I made was that the Pacers weren't nearly as good as you seem to think they are last year. They struggled for the latter part of the season and are likely to lose their 2nd best player (or 3rd if Hibbert finds his old self). To suggest that the Raptors have no chance against them seems unreasonable.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

$2M in trade scenarios will be negligible down the road. This season, that $2M will push us past the salary floor required to make the MLE available. It is effectively making us more flexible this offseason. So if its a matter of not liking the sound of Lowry for $12M, then yeah, I'm not worrying about someone else's money. 

And who are these value free agents that the Raptors should pursue to put together a championship contender anyways? I agree, this team as it is maxes out as maybe a 2nd Round/ECF team but again, _that is not a bad thing_. Every contender has required some luck so it will probably take some extraordinary leaps from Lowry, DeRozan, Jonas and Ross for the Raps to join the top 5-8 teams in the league.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

I'm so drunk. 5am. 

Go to bed Porn. No. 

LeBron to the Cavs is crazy. I love it, but its crazy.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

Moreover, the Pacers absolutely blew it this past season personnel wise with the additions of Turner and Bynum, and flipping Green, Plumlee and a 1st rounder (which is gold with today's luxury tax) for Scola. They struck complete gold with Stevenson and George - I'm not sure how many expected the former to be an all-star and the latter to be one of the seven best players in the league. I'll give Larry Bird's tutelage some due, but drafting studs is largely affected by luck. There was a time where taking Westbrook fourth was considered a huge risk, like Exum this year.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

After next year Fields/Hayes contract both come off the books, giving us 13 million of cap space to work with. With Amir's body breaking down I don't think he will demand that much money if we keep him at all, we almost definitely will add another piece next year in free agency. The fact that we are spending 21.5 mil a year for 2 allstar players for the next 2 years shouldn't be overlooked.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

the contract of derozan is pretty awesome... an all-star caliber player who gets paid less than 10mil per season. there were talks of how he was overpaid at the time too(but not from me).


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> the contract of derozan is pretty awesome... an all-star caliber player who gets paid less than 10mil per season. there were talks of how he was overpaid at the time too(but not from me).


The way I evaluate whether a team overpaid for a player (beside the obvious point of whether the player actually fits the team) is whether or not the team could've signed the player using less than what they ended up paying. If the market value of DeRozan at the time when the contract was signed was only 7 million and we ended up paying 9 million for him, even if he becomes the next Lebron 2-3 years down the road it still doesn't change the fact that we "overpaid" for him. I don't recall the exact conversation Raptor fans had when the DeRozan contract was signed, but I seem to recall that the conversation was more along the lines of not getting a good enough deal for an unproven player. As it turned out that was one of the smarter decisions that BC made during his tenure.


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## brunofor3 (Feb 25, 2015)

R-Star said:


> 6.5? Whaaaaat?
> 
> I like the guy, but come on man.



He is high character. I loved it when he said "we have to play with some balls" during the brooklyn series. 

Someone with that kind of attitude that fits the raptors offensive philosophy to a t deserves 6.5 mill.


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