# Riley: Deng hard play was a flop



## eymang (Dec 15, 2006)

http://www.miamiherald.com/594/story/80373.html



> ''It was a run-in [Hinrich, last season] and a big-time flop [Deng, this season] more than anything else,'' said Riley, who believes the Heat must match the Bulls' intensity to advance. ``We know who they are and they know who we are.''


What a piece of crap! I should go downtown and try to find him just so I can spit on this son of a *****.


Meanwhile, this is Shaq:



> ''They want to make it a rivalry,'' O'Neal said of the Bulls after Thursday's practice. ``It's not. Not on our end. Do something to make it a rivalry. Whatever FM they can conjure up to play -- fake motivation -- that's on them. But they've asked for us. And here we come.''


Fake motivation? That is what your entire team is doing right now!

I hate this team's guts. Seriously, it's worse than the Pistons, I would root for Detroit over Miami


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## UD40 (May 12, 2005)

Is it me, or does everytime Miami and Chicago get together, there is always some sort of cheap-play?

Nocioni on Wade in '04 (?) regular season
Haslem tossing Nocioni into the crowd after the cheap hit
Posey-Kirk
Posey-Deng


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

eymang said:


> I hate this team's guts. Seriously, it's worse than the Pistons, I would root for Detroit over Miami


Now there is a statement.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Well... let's check the tape...

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DLnTdZb18oM"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DLnTdZb18oM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLnTdZb18oM

Well... at about 1:09 you get the best view of Deng's "flop"... as Posey grabs him around the arm and shoulder and throws him on the ground... Good call Pat Riley, ya jerk.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Oh man! It is on!


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

You have to expect any team with Shaq and Riley on it to talk a lot. There is going to be a lot of talk going on in the press.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

I don't know what happened to Riley after he left LA that made him want to convert lots of previously normal, sportsmanlike players into full-bore thugs. I mean, Posey could freaking kill a guy with some of these cheap shots if he's not careful.

The irony this year is that PJ Brown used to be one of those guys. The Nets basically gave up on PJ because he was too passive, and then the next thing you know, PJ's picking up guys and throwing them into the stands.

I guess all that "Art of War" stuff works for some people.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Riley, Posey and Shaq are all POS. Heat fans really have had to develop a blind eye to root for these characters.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Riley called *that * a flop? I'd like to think of myself as pretty unbiased about this matchup (I'm not even sure who I want to win yet), but in no way was that a flop. Posey didn't make a play on the ball, and he took him down pretty hard.

I do have to say though that I love this war of words that's already going on before this series has even started. This is going to be the best first round series by far.


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## buckums (Jun 25, 2004)

I can't stand Pat Riley. First he sends out his goon to get the Bulls, then after the hit is made, he calls flops on the other players? It's like setting fire to a building and saying it's the building's fault it burned down. And to make matters worse, he says Kirk is a dirty player and is always cheap shotting Wade. Sorry, just because Kirk doesn't go for Wade's up-fake every time it doesn't mean he's a dirty defender. 

I understand he wants to win the series, but prepare your guys and and coach them to a win. Don't play politics to the officials before the series has even begun. It sounds to me he might be a little scared.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

His comment seems pretty calculated. Riley obviously believes playing an angry Bulls team instead of the alternative is an advantage. Weird. 

I'm hoping the NBA put Posey on secret probation before this series. He has a history of unsportsmanlike fouls against the Bulls, and one more incident should lead to a series suspension.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

you guys love to call Posey a goon

Posey only makes these so called plays against the Bulls....never has these issues vs. any other teams. The Deng play looked like a hard foul, and one that I would say a suspension was deserved. The Hinrich one was a hip check. I said back then and will say it again- if Posey wanted to injure the guy, he wouldn't do a hip to hip shot. If Posey was a goon and out there only to injure, he could of went for the head/legs and used his elbow/shoulder. 

its the same type of thing I mentioned in the other thread. You will see what you look for- what you want to see. Every foul Posey commits will be looked upon as suspicious by you guys.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

could pat riley's head be any further up his own ***?

i think not.

posey is a thug. i hope someone takes him OUT.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

UD40 said:


> Is it me, or does everytime Miami and Chicago get together, there is always some sort of cheap-play?
> 
> Nocioni on Wade in '04 (?) regular season
> Haslem tossing Nocioni into the crowd after the cheap hit
> ...


Posey breaking Tyrus' nose? Might be intentional or just being physical down low


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> its the same type of thing I mentioned in the other thread. You will see what you look for- what you want to see. Every foul Posey commits will be looked upon as suspicious by you guys.


And why the hell won't we? The guy does this as you pointed out to only us. There is a damn reason behind it. It's obvious.


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## HINrichPolice (Jan 6, 2004)

I wonder if Riley really meant to call the Deng play a flop or if it was the author's interpretation of the quote. I'd think that even Riley understands that you can't flop in mid-air.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> The Deng play looked like a hard foul, and one that I would say a suspension was deserved.


In which case it would seem to follow that your coach is an absolute lunatic for calling it a flop.


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## nitric (Dec 14, 2006)

Heat will be taking a first round exit anyway. Posey is a goon and doesn't deserve to be in teh NBA


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/XxU3YXcRwV0"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/XxU3YXcRwV0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Hip Check, my bad guys. This is why I hate the Heat. They do crap like this and get calls for placing a finger on them. Ben Wallace better show up. I cannot stand another loss to this team. I didn't like Posey, JWill, Payton, and Walker as players before they got onto this team. I was never a fan of their attitudes.

For all you Heat fans who think I hate Wade, well I dislike him as a player because I do think he gets a lot of special calls (you may or may not agree), but I do respect him as a person who married his HS sweetheart as he could get any woman he wants. He does charitable work too.


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## UD40 (May 12, 2005)

I'm not trying to start anything, but don't act like people like Nocioni are goodie-goodies. Every team in the NBA has a "goon" or "enforcer." (those are two different terms IMO.)


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## buckums (Jun 25, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> you guys love to call Posey a goon
> 
> Posey only makes these so called plays against the Bulls....never has these issues vs. any other teams. The Deng play looked like a hard foul, and one that I would say a suspension was deserved. The Hinrich one was a hip check. I said back then and will say it again- if Posey wanted to injure the guy, he wouldn't do a hip to hip shot. If Posey was a goon and out there only to injure, he could of went for the head/legs and used his elbow/shoulder.
> 
> its the same type of thing I mentioned in the other thread. You will see what you look for- what you want to see. Every foul Posey commits will be looked upon as suspicious by you guys.


I never said Posey was stupid, just a goon. He knows that if it's too blatant he'll be suspended for double-digit games or more. Riley isn't stupid either. He knows what his players can get away with.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

All right, screw it. Now I'm angry.

Screw Pat Riley and the horse he rode in on. Absolutely no class whatsoever. I also don't think there's any big strategic benefit to giving the other team heaps of locker room material, but we'll see.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

UD40 said:


> I'm not trying to start anything, but don't act like people like Nocioni are goodie-goodies. Every team in the NBA has a "goon" or "enforcer." (those are two different terms IMO.)


Personally, I think of Noc more as obnoxious to opposing players than thuggish. He was suspended once for an elbow but he's more known for things like the deal with LeBron's shorts. Regardless, Posey's rep has far exceeded that of a run of the mill goon/enforcer. There's nowhere near thirty other players in the league that are viewed the way that he is.


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## PowerWoofer (Jan 5, 2006)

James Posey likes to try and get cheap shots in on the Bulls. He's a THUG!
Pat Riley likes to stir the pot in order to get a rise out of the Bulls, and to make the refs moe suspicious of the Bulls, although the Bulls are NOWHERE NEAR as respected as they should be.
Dwyane Wade is a sissy, and all he does is cry when he doesn't get a foul. FOR GOD'S SAKES, YOU GET 20 MORE FREE THROW OPPORTUNITIES THAN ALMOST ANY OTHER PLAYER. SHUT THE **** UP AND PLAY HARD IF YOU WANT TO GET FOULED. SISSY!!!!!

The Heat piss me off in general. Under achieving thugs that fluked themselves into the championship last season. WON'T HAPPEN TWICE!

I will be standing tall with my head held high if the Bulls can de-throne this bunch of has-been, over-the-hill washed-up think-they-still-got-it-but-don't-actually-have-it-anymore whiners.


GO BULLS!!!!!!!!!


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

It's only against the Bulls that Posey has done this. BTW, that flagrant foul on Deng was successful. Deng went 1-2 from the line, and Chicago missed their next shot, so they only got 1 point instead of the two they would've gotten had Posey just let Deng dunk on him. Not to mention the fact that layups and dunks are game-changing plays. The Heat have a well publicized policy of no layups or dunks, and it's a damn good one at that. You might say that has no place in basketball, but if it prevents a possible AND1 for 3 points if he just handchecked him, or two points if he let him go, then it is an effective play. The Tyrus Thomas play happens all the time with Posey. He gets hurt on those kinds of plays also (that's how he hurt his shoulder.) He just goes for every single loose ball. I've said it before, when a player's willing to give up his body like that, you have two options: either give up your body as well, or get out of the way. Posey's just the kind of role player that you love to have on your team, but hate to play against, and in that respect, he's pretty similar to Nocioni. Riles doesn't actually believe what he says, but it's his job to get us every advantage possible, and he knows that by saying what he said, he was taking one for the team. Of course the Heat are going to talk trash. Shaq, GP, Riles, and Zo are a few of the most prolific trashtalkers ever. Riles said it because he probably feels that because the Bulls are so young, playing angry would probably only hinder them because it would cause them to make silly mistakes. You might criticize Riley, but you guys would be much better off if Skiles was doing the same thing.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

PowerWoofer said:


> James Posey likes to try and get cheap shots in on the Bulls. He's a THUG!
> Pat Riley likes to stir the pot in order to get a rise out of the Bulls, and to make the refs moe suspicious of the Bulls, although the Bulls are NOWHERE NEAR as respected as they should be.
> Dwyane Wade is a sissy, and all he does is cry when he doesn't get a foul. FOR GOD'S SAKES, YOU GET 20 MORE FREE THROW OPPORTUNITIES THAN ALMOST ANY OTHER PLAYER. SHUT THE **** UP AND PLAY HARD IF YOU WANT TO GET FOULED. SISSY!!!!!
> 
> ...


:worthy: :worthy:


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## Bulls rock your socks (Jun 29, 2006)

i hope theres some hard fouls in this series.


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## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

Bulls rock your socks said:


> i hope theres some hard fouls in this series.


oh you dont have to hope--it will happen. lol

anyway, im not going to let a little trash talking stop me from enjoying a good series. its only natural in sports. im just gonna sit back, have a few beers, and enjoy [strike]watching Posey destroy the Bulls[/strike] the game.:cheers:


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## theyoungsrm (May 23, 2003)

nocioni and posey are both dirty goons BUT

you can stop someone from dunking without grabbing them by the shoulders and pulling down while there in the air. someone doesnt know basketball. the heat poster that thinks that the posey-deng play was anything but dirty is not looking at the play with a clear mind.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

I'm also concerned about Shaq. Don't piss him off or else he might wait until your back is turned and then try to slug the back of your head.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

theanimal23 said:


> And why the hell won't we? The guy does this as you pointed out to only us. There is a damn reason behind it. It's obvious.


I honestly don't know....after the first one, I think you guys are overly tough on him...the Deng one was a hard foul, but was borderline suspendable. You see plays like that in the NBA- its not uncommon

also, I don't know what it could be with the Bulls- its not like Posey has any reason to dislike them...and the plays are not on Nocioni, which would make sense

I'm not trying to start anything- Posey does have a history with the Bulls as of late....but calling him a thug for a couple hard fouls over the past year doesn't work for me.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

How's Wade looking?


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

theyoungsrm said:


> nocioni and posey are both dirty goons BUT
> 
> you can stop someone from dunking without grabbing them by the shoulders and pulling down while there in the air. someone doesnt know basketball. the heat poster that thinks that the posey-deng play was anything but dirty is not looking at the play with a clear mind.


Sure you can. And in doing so you'd be risking a 3 point play. Posey was out of position and he didn't want Luol to make some amazing play. If he would've wrapped him up and landed on him, it would've looked twice as bad. No layups, no dunks, no handchecking fouls, no 3 point plays. It's '90s basketball at it's finest. With all our vets, we still play it. Deal with it


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

DaBullz said:


> How's Wade looking?


I think he's partially faking the extent of the injury. If you saw the Indiana game, no one canplay like **** after an injury and just magically turn it on like they were never hurt when the pressure's on. At least I don't think DWade can.


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## theyoungsrm (May 23, 2003)

Flash is the Future said:


> Sure you can. And in doing so you'd be risking a 3 point play. Posey was out of position and he didn't want Luol to make some amazing play. If he would've wrapped him up and landed on him, it would've looked twice as bad. No layups, no dunks, no handchecking fouls, no 3 point plays. It's '90s basketball at it's finest. With all our vets, we still play it. Deal with it



It's extremely easy to stop a shot without yanking someone down. The simplicity of your post makes me think you've never played ball or don't understand it too well.

Foul them on the hands. That is just as effective in stopping the shot and you don't have to worry about:

1) hurting someone
2) retailation
3) getting a flagrant or getting ejected

By Posey playing "90's" basketball he risks getting himself thrown out...and in the end I'm not sure that worth that extra point. 

And if he tries that in the series, chances are the punishment will be fierce given his history with the Bulls. Not worth it

And lets not make this a Bulls v. Heat thing. I personally think the Heat will win in 6 and Chapu is just as dirty


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Flash is the Future said:


> Sure you can. And in doing so you'd be risking a 3 point play. Posey was out of position and he didn't want Luol to make some amazing play. If he would've wrapped him up and landed on him, it would've looked twice as bad. No layups, no dunks, no handchecking fouls, no 3 point plays. It's '90s basketball at it's finest. With all our vets, we still play it. Deal with it


Dude a Heat fan came on here earlier and said "we were seeing what we wanted to see". Check the highlights, Posey can just grab Deng's arm to prevent him from going up. When coaches teach you to prevent the AND1, they don't teach you to grab the guy by the shoulder and throw him to the floor.

The thing I love about Posey's "hip check" to Kirk is the angle they had on the TNT broadcast. It's not on the YouTube clip, but when Posey is trailing Kirk he's eyeing him up. It's clear as day. And lowering your shoulder into someone from behind isn't a "hip check". Jesus, I hope Posey goes 0-45 in this series and gets tossed out every game. He's a thug, plain and simple.

Nocioni is an enforcer, but he isn't a repeat offender. Could this Posey stuff be retaliation for the Noc hit on Wade though? Like in hockey. You take out our best guy, so I'm gonna go after yours.


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

TripleDouble said:


> I'm also concerned about Shaq. Don't piss him off or else he might wait until your back is turned and then try to slug the back of your head.


It doesn't matter, because he's most likely going to miss anyway.

How the hell could you call that a flop? I can't stand Miami and would love to knock them off in the first round.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I hope Posey gets pissed Game 1 and does something which does not injure one of us, but gets him ejected for the series.


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## Smez86 (Jun 29, 2006)

Seriously, why are we worrying about Posey? He'll be lucky to get 8 points a game at any point in the series.

The two things we should be most worried about are Shaq (as he dictates every game and opens things up for the Miami shooters like Antoine and Kapono, whom are otherwise useless when not taking shots) and Ben Gordon (if he can have a consistent series, I think we're good).

As for that play, it was obviously an intentional foul. And the Miami fans seem to like this sort of thing apparently, something which takes no level of talent whatsoever. What I don't get is when people back up a play like this where a guy could get thrown out. As if Miami wins, it was because Posey did a smart thing. No, Miami wins because Miami has Shaq. Derrrr.

And it's funny how far Riley is reaching here. Has he altered his "psychological" approach to the game so much that he is blatantly and comically pulling things out of his behind to try and motivate his players? He's losing his touch.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

theyoungsrm said:


> It's extremely easy to stop a shot without yanking someone down. The simplicity of your post makes me think you've never played ball or don't understand it too well.
> 
> Foul them on the hands. That is just as effective in stopping the shot and you don't have to worry about:
> 
> ...


And there are players strong enough to get the shot off anyway. In that situation an AND1 would've crushed the Heat's momentum. A flagrant on the other hand would only pump them (the Heat) up any more. I prefer that Posey doesn't take that chance.


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## PowerWoofer (Jan 5, 2006)

Flash is the Future said:


> And there are players strong enough to get the shot off anyway. In that situation an AND1 would've crushed the Heat's momentum. A flagrant on the other hand would only pump them (the Heat) up any more. I prefer that Posey doesn't take that chance.


You sure see things from just one point of view.

Deng could have broken his wrist, sprained it badly, even something else worse (hitting his head hard on the court). Things like that would warrant 10 or more game suspensions. Intentionally hurting a player to that extent is grounds for that type of suspension.

And don't give me the "well, Posey was trying to pump up the Heat" crap. Posey's a thug, and he MEANT to do that. Players like him should be banned from playing. For good!


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## bigdbucks (Jun 7, 2002)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> you guys love to call Posey a goon
> 
> Posey only makes these so called plays against the Bulls....never has these issues vs. any other teams. The Deng play looked like a hard foul, and one that I would say a suspension was deserved. The Hinrich one was a hip check. I said back then and will say it again- if Posey wanted to injure the guy, he wouldn't do a hip to hip shot. If Posey was a goon and out there only to injure, he could of went for the head/legs and used his elbow/shoulder.
> 
> its the same type of thing I mentioned in the other thread. You will see what you look for- what you want to see. Every foul Posey commits will be looked upon as suspicious by you guys.


LOLLOLOLOLOLO.....if u really believe that garbage you spewed, you are a foolio


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> you guys love to call Posey a goon
> 
> Posey only makes these so called plays against the Bulls....never has these issues vs. any other teams. The Deng play looked like a hard foul, and one that I would say a suspension was deserved. The Hinrich one was a hip check. I said back then and will say it again- if Posey wanted to injure the guy, he wouldn't do a hip to hip shot. If Posey was a goon and out there only to injure, he could of went for the head/legs and used his elbow/shoulder.
> 
> its the same type of thing I mentioned in the other thread. You will see what you look for- what you want to see. Every foul Posey commits will be looked upon as suspicious by you guys.


Whatever you want to say to make yourself feel better. Posey was _well-known_ by Grizzlies fans for similar tactics (take on Peja Stojakovic, flagrant foul against Manu Ginobili, etc) during his stay in Memphis.


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## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

Rawse said:


> Whatever you want to say to make yourself feel better. Posey was _well-known_ by Grizzlies fans for similar tactics (take on Peja Stojakovic, flagrant foul against Manu Ginobili, etc) during his stay in Memphis.


naw man, its Hubie Brown sending out his goon to take out others. how dare he convert lots of previously normal, sportsmanlike players into full-bore thugs? i cant believe his head is so far up his ***!


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

Gio305 said:


> naw man, its Hubie Brown sending out his goon to take out others. how dare he convert lots of previously normal, sportsmanlike players into full-bore thugs? i cant believe his head is so far up his ***!


Well, Hubie didn't claim that the Peja or Ginobili flopped on those plays.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

theyoungsrm said:


> It's extremely easy to stop a shot without yanking someone down.


Yep, it's the pulling them _downwards_ part that's the killer. You can wrap someone up in the air very effectively without throwing them into the ground. 

If there are situations where you can't foul someone without seriously risking a major injury to the player and being thrown out of the game and suspended then a "no layups/dunks" policy is probably a bad idea.


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## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

Aurelino said:


> Well, Hubie didn't claim that the Peja or Ginobili flopped on those plays.


i know, thats why i didnt mention that.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Was the hip-check on Hinrich an attempt to stop a potential four point play?


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Gio305 said:


> naw man, its Hubie Brown sending out his goon to take out others. how dare he convert lots of previously normal, sportsmanlike players into full-bore thugs? i cant believe his head is so far up his ***!


Annnnnd you lost me.


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## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

Rawse said:


> Annnnnd you lost me.


i was actually aiming for other ppl in this thread, not you Rawse.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

Rawse said:


> Whatever you want to say to make yourself feel better. Posey was _well-known_ by Grizzlies fans for similar tactics (take on Peja Stojakovic, flagrant foul against Manu Ginobili, etc) during his stay in Memphis.


that might of been the case...I remember no instances of him getting in any sort of trouble while with the Heat, other than against the Bulls......(and other than him driving drunk at 4 am)

I really cant say what it is with him and the Bulls...I dont think its as bad as people are making out (he isn't out there to injure people- if he was, it wouldn't be a hip check on Hinrich), but he does seem to foul harder against them


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> that might of been the case...I remember no instances of him getting in any sort of trouble while with the Heat, other than against the Bulls......(and other than him driving drunk at 4 am)
> 
> I really cant say what it is with him and the Bulls...I dont think its as bad as people are making out *(he isn't out there to injure people- if he was, it wouldn't be a hip check on Hinrich)* but he does seem to foul harder against them


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Pat Riley has always gone out of his way to manipulate the referees. Unfortunately he usually has success. In New York he managed to convince the refs that chronic mugging was somehow part of the game. In LA he stole two titles by intimidating refs by crying about their calls. Last year there is no way Miami even escapes then first round, much less wins the NBA title without Riley convincing the referees to literally give the Heat and extra 10 points a game or so at the line.

Riley is the epitome of what is wrong with the NBA. The referees are apparently incapable of calling games as they see them, and ignoring what they read in the press. The success of Riley teams is proof of that year after year.

The idea that Deng is a flopper is so ridiculous that it doesn't deserve comment -- particularly when the source of the accusation has routinely trained his players over the years to fake phantom fouls on offense and commit bodily harm to opponents on defense. Any referee that listens to his crap shouldn't be allowed into the building.

The truth is that the only hope the Heat have is to play 8 on 5 in at least 4 games, and Riley knows it.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

theanimal23 said:


>


if he was out there just to injure people, would he do a hip to hip shot when he had a free lick on your best player? Just answer that question. I think people over reacted on that play, but it wasn't too bad imo and could of been a lot worse.....I didn't think he deserved the suspension there at the time, but then with suspensions later in the playoffs, according to last years standards, that was worth a suspension

if he was nothing more than a goon out to injure people, it would of been an elbow shot to the head...or forearm to the upper body....


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> if he was out there just to injure people, would he do a hip to hip shot when he had a free lick on your best player? Just answer that question. I think people over reacted on that play, but it wasn't too bad imo and could of been a lot worse.....I didn't think he deserved the suspension there at the time, but then with suspensions later in the playoffs, according to last years standards, that was worth a suspension
> 
> if he was nothing more than a goon out to injure people, it would of been an elbow shot to the head...or forearm to the upper body....


Had delivered an elbow shot to the head or a forearm to the upper body you probably would have said: 



wadeshaqeddie said:


> if he was out there just to injure people, would he do an elbow shot to the head or forearm to the upper body when he had a free lick on your best player? Just answer that question. I think people over reacted on that play, but it wasn't too bad imo and could of been a lot worse.....I didn't think he deserved the suspension there at the time, but then with suspensions later in the playoffs, according to last years standards, that was worth a suspension
> 
> if he was nothing more than a goon out to injure people, it would of been an knee to the groin...or a fist to the jaw....


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> if he was out there just to injure people, would he do a hip to hip shot when he had a free lick on your best player? Just answer that question. I think people over reacted on that play, but it wasn't too bad imo and could of been a lot worse.....I didn't think he deserved the suspension there at the time, but then with suspensions later in the playoffs, according to last years standards, that was worth a suspension
> 
> if he was nothing more than a goon out to injure people, it would of been an elbow shot to the head...or forearm to the upper body....


1. It wasn't an hip check. He leaned in with his shoulder. 
2. Maybe the angle isn't that great, but if you saw the game, you could tell somewhat from that video that Posey had lined up Kirk. He knew he wanted to hit him. 

Maybe we can play with the "Wade Rules" since flagrant fouls are the equivalent of a hand-touch or a normal shooting foul where you get hit on the elbow. 

Honestly, I don't even know if there is a way to reply to your posts. Either you are in denial, can't take an objective view on it, or have issues in seeing what we are describing here.

I'm not saying the Bulls are your Angels. Noce did elbow Rip (I believe thats who it was), and has been in other altercations. While I don't believe those were as severe as Posey's hit on Deng, but they were what I would classify as cheap moves though.

I'm sure if Wade has a season-ending injury or career-ending injury this series, we can all rejoice in knowing that it was an ordinary foul with no bad intentions. I'm sure it'd be considered flopping too if we just took his other shoulder out of his socket and tore some ligaments.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

theanimal23 said:


> 1. It wasn't an hip check. He leaned in with his shoulder.
> 2. Maybe the angle isn't that great, but if you saw the game and you can tell somewhat from that video that Posey had lined up Kirk. He knew he wanted to hit him.
> 
> Maybe we can play with the "Wade Rules" since flagrant fouls are the equivalent of a hand-touch or a normal shooting foul where you get hit on the elbow.
> ...


1. Did I say it was an ordinary foul?- no, I said it was a hard foul and one warranting a suspension, but also a foul that that is not uncommon in the NBA. But there is a huge difference between a hard foul and calling somebody a goon who goes out there with the intent to hurt people

2. Call me un objective all you want, but im not the one setting up pre series excuses about officiating and what is going to happen. I honestly think you are the one who wont be seeing things clearly. All you will be looking for watching the series are the refs and Posey. When you look for only specific things, that is all you are going to see. 

like all this talk about the officials being out to get you....do you know Wade and the Heat average a lot less ft's than their average against the Bulls..... that the Bulls out shot the Heat 44-16 earlier this year, and people were still whining about officiating. That the Heat shot the least amount of ft's in *NBA PLAYOFF HISTORY* against the Bulls game 4 of that series, with 5 the entire game. The world isn't out to get you guys.....making yourself beleive that and looking for that over everything else wont let you see things objectively....

anyway, im not going to get involved here...I've tried to be respectful with my posts, but all I see is hate. Im not getting involved in a spat with conspiracy theorists...adios for good Bulls board until the series is over:cheers:


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## buckums (Jun 25, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> if he was nothing more than a goon out to injure people, it would of been an elbow shot to the head...or forearm to the upper body....


Again, he knows how to cause a lot of potential injury without making it look completely deliberate. Watch the clip, he wraps up Deng and pulls him down (grabbing him to stop a dunk, ok. Pulling him down? Completely unnecessary). What Posey does to try to make it look like he wasn't trying to hurt him is he quickly throws his arms up in the air to plead his innocense. Smart on his part; compare that to players who do the same thing and stand over the player they just punked. They are the ones who get seriuos suspensions. Posey is smart and definitely a good actor, I will give him that. Regardless, cheap-shotting a player in mid-air is not basketball. 

If he was genuinely not trying to hurt Deng, he would have tried to STOP him from hitting the ground, not try to get him there faster. He was only concerned about getting away with something, so his focus was turned elsewhere.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

At this moment we are not even discussing the officating, but whether or not Posey was committing a usual shooting foul or something more deliberate regarding Kirk and Deng.


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## theyoungsrm (May 23, 2003)

did my posts get deleted?


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

TripleDouble said:


> Riley, Posey and Shaq are all POS. Heat fans really have had to develop a blind eye to root for these characters.


Blind eye? More like eye for an eye. You Bulls fans like to complain about Posey, but your boy Nocioni started this whole fiasco when he swatted Wade to the ground after a foul. Haslem then proceeded to dump him into the first row.

Sure it could have ended there. Then in the Playoffs that year Posey shoulder checks Hinrich. Ok, so it was a dirty play, but nothing excessive.
But sure, a goon play if you'd like. But personally, i'm ok with that, it brought our team some intensity and ultimately a series win.

Fast Forward to this season, Hinrich sprains Wade's wrist, he's out for 8 games, Posey comes back and gets Deng.

so 2/3 of those instances, eye for an eye. So please spare the "we're so innocent, and the Heat are a bunch of cheapshot artists." routine.

I challenge you to name me one player that Posey has gone after as a Heat player that WASN'T a member of the Bulls team. Good luck.


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## Nu_Omega (Nov 27, 2006)

If an eye for an eye is all you are looking for, i suggest you start watching the WWE. 

I guess maybe Skiles should sent Barrett out to spear Wade so that he'll bring some energy and intensity to the bulls too.

Sheesh...


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Heated said:


> Blind eye? More like eye for an eye. You Bulls fans like to complain about Posey, but your boy Nocioni started this whole fiasco when he swatted Wade to the ground after a foul. Haslem then proceeded to dump him into the first row.
> 
> Sure it could have ended there. Then in the Playoffs that year Posey shoulder checks Hinrich. Ok, so it was a dirty play, but nothing excessive.
> But sure, a goon play if you'd like. But personally, i'm ok with that, it brought our team some intensity and ultimately a series win.
> ...


LOL @ Hinrich spraining Wade's wrist. You've obviously bought the Riley ref-baiting rhetoric hook, line and sinker.

Nocioni was a dirty player as a rookie. He's learned and hasn't done those things again. Posey on the other hand is a long time vet and is still a goon. 

But the worst of all is Shaq. I am shocked at people's ability to overlook the cowardly and dangerous act of trying to punch Brad Miller in the back of the head. Again, a 350 pound man is punching someone who has their back turned. Had he been successful in his attempt he could have seriously injured Miller. But that's all conveniently forgotten.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

TripleDouble said:


> LOL @ Hinrich spraining Wade's wrist. You've obviously bought the Riley ref-baiting rhetoric hook, line and sinker.


What the hell are you talking about? Are you denying that Wade got hurt due to Hinrich holding onto his arm while he was trying to move through a screen?



> Nocioni was a dirty player as a rookie. He's learned and hasn't done those things again. Posey on the other hand is a long time vet and is still a goon.


Then retort the last line of my last post.



> But the worst of all is Shaq. I am shocked at people's ability to overlook the cowardly and dangerous act of trying to punch Brad Miller in the back of the head. Again, a 350 pound man is punching someone who has their back turned. Had he been successful in his attempt he could have seriously injured Miller. But that's all conveniently forgotten by fans.


The hell that got to do with anything?

Shaq gets in an altercation or two in his 13 year career and now he's a dirty player?

You are aware that Jordan has punched out his own teamates right? What a goon that Jordan.


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## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

> You are aware that Jordan has punched out his own teamates right? What a goon that Jordan.


omg!

i guess 90s basketball was full of goons!


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Heat fans come on, Posey is a thug. Nocioni is dirty, no doubt, but Posey has twice tried to intentionally injure two of the Bulls best players. Lining up Hinrich and throwing a WWE-style shoulder block isn't an ordinary foul. That's why he got ejected. Grabbing a player in mid-air and throwing him to the ground is an intentional foul. Trying to stop someone from getting around a screen isn't a foul with intent to injure. Jesus, I can't wait for today. Wade is gonna shoot 25 FTs, the Bulls as a team will shoot 10, the Heat will win by 3, and all the Heat fans will come up here claiming, "the refs are fair", "stop thinking the refs are out to get you", "we crushed you guys".


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Gio305 said:


> omg!
> 
> i guess 90s basketball was full of goons!


How old were you when Riley began coaching the Knicks, or even when he quit via fax and took over the Heat job the first time?

You may want to dig into Riley's past a little deeper than what you'll get from Eric Reid.


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## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> How old were you when Riley began coaching the Knicks, or even when he quit via fax and took over the Heat job the first time?
> 
> You may want to dig into Riley's past a little deeper than what you'll get from Eric Reid.


my age at that time is irrelevant. i know what happened with Pat and the knicks and im aware of its history.

anyway, what does this have to do with anything? lol


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## synergy825 (Apr 28, 2005)

If the Heat do the same thing now, I say send a scrub in there and when Shaq or Wade jump up, stick a foot under where they land (a la Bowen) and let them get a taste of their own medicine.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Hinrich grabbed Wade's wrist as much as Posey broke Tyrus's nose, which is something he didn't mean to do and it just happen in the course of a game. I'm not quite sure how any of you got the impression that we were calling Posey's flagrant on Deng a normal shooting foul. It must just be that everything you read gets filtered through your own POV. It was a flagrant, but these things have happened a lot over the course of time. You wanna call every player that's ever done something like that a goon? Good luck with naming that ridiculously long list. As I already said, Riles called it a flop as a good coaching move. That's the smart thing to do. Does he believe that? Obviously not, but I'm sure you'd like him to. Posey's foul on Deng however stopped a potential score successfully. It was a good play because it saved the heat a point. If he hadn't done that, and say the Heat had goneon to lose by 1 point, Posey would've blamed himself for the loss. Now the Hinrich foul was something differen from a basketball play. That was Posey, quite possibly influenced by Riles, sending a message that would help turn the series around in Miami's favor. It worked, didn't it? Posey's a guy that you love to have on your team, but hate to play against. The more you hate, the better he's doing his job.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

synergy825 said:


> If the Heat do the same thing now, I say send a scrub in there and when Shaq or Wade jump up, stick a foot under where they land (a la Bowen) and let them get a taste of their own medicine.


Probably not a great idea, unless you guys don't want Posey, UD, Zo, and Shaq going after you for the rest of the series. It'll be interesting to see if the Bulls finally retaliate, because since that Nocioni incident, they've done nothing to stick up for their teammates.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Flash is the Future said:


> Probably not a great idea, unless you guys don't want Posey, UD, Zo, and Shaq going after you for the rest of the series. It'll be interesting to see if the Bulls finally retaliate, because since that Nocioni incident, they've done nothing to stick up for their teammates.


I agree completely.

In a battle of classless punks, one on one, the Bulls would be guilty of bringing a knife to a gunfight.

In a fight of classless punk retaliation, the classless punks run so wide and deep on Miami, the Bulls wouldn't have a prayer. It'd be over with the first foul.


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## mippo (Apr 27, 2005)

There's been a couple of really bad calls in the Toronto / New Jersey game already. It happens! Most fans will tend to have bias towards their team so the "bad" calls they benefit from will tend to go unnoticed while they will notice all of the calls against their team. Almost every game has a few pretty bad calls if you look for them and as a fan you just hope they don't go against your team. 

As a Heat fan, I really hated the officiating in the Heat / Pistons ECF series in 05. The Pistons played really physical and the refs weren't calling fouls for anything which benefitted the Pistons more because they came out playing really physical and were committing a lot more of the fouls that were not being called. Furthermore, they didn't have much of a bench that year so foul trouble would've affected the Pistons a lot more then the Heat, but since they weren't calling fouls for anything they didn't have to worry about foul trouble either. 

For this series, the Heat tend to play inside the paint more while the Bulls are more of a jumpshooting team which means a tightly officiated game would likely benefit the Heat. If they decide to call very few fouls it would benefit the Bulls since, more likely then not, the Bulls are going to be committing more fouls based on the way the teams play. A team that drives to the basket will typically get more foul calls then a team that shoots jump shots. That's just the way it is. Who knows how they will call it, the refs could benefit either team, ideally they call the game fairly and are as neutral as possible.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Heated said:


> Blind eye? More like eye for an eye. You Bulls fans like to complain about Posey, but your boy Nocioni started this whole fiasco when he swatted Wade to the ground after a foul. Haslem then proceeded to dump him into the first row.
> 
> Sure it could have ended there. Then in the Playoffs that year Posey shoulder checks Hinrich. Ok, so it was a dirty play, but nothing excessive.
> But sure, a goon play if you'd like. But personally, i'm ok with that, it brought our team some intensity and ultimately a series win.
> ...


I get the biggest kick out of the oxymorons I keep reading in these posts from the Heat fans. A non-excessive dirty play? Huh?! The problem with your eye for an eye argument is that, as evidenced by the post from Memphis fans in this thread, Posey has developed a reputation _throughout_ the league that Hinrich and Nocioni have not. There must be a reason for that, no? Even in your own analysis, the intentions of the Bulls players come across and completely speculative while Posey is the enforcer who is seeking retribution.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Heated said:


> Shaq gets in an altercation or two in his 13 year career and now he's a dirty player?


I'm not calling Shaq a dirty player. I'm saying that trying to punch the back of someone's head is a cowardly and potentially lethal act that should tarnish his reputation around the league. 

Look what happened to the NBDL guy who fractured Martynas Andriuskevicius skull with a sucker punch. He's out of the league. Shaq got off just because he's uncordinated and missed.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I agree completely.
> 
> In a battle of classless punks, one on one, the Bulls would be guilty of bringing a knife to a gunfight.
> 
> In a fight of classless punk retaliation, the classless punks run so wide and deep on Miami, the Bulls wouldn't have a prayer. It'd be over with the first foul.


Let's see. It'd be Nocioni and Hinrich versus Posey, Shaq, Haslem, Zo, and Payton. Yea, you're right. Bulls get killed in the "classless punk" department.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Deng was on the break and UD wrapped him up in the 4th today. Guess what happened? A three point play. That's why even though what Posey did was excessive, it was the proper thing to do because it saved the Heat 2 points at the time. I don't think you can say it has no place in basketball, unless you're willing to say that flopping has no place in basketball. If it saves your team points, then it's fair game.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Flash is the Future said:


> Deng was on the break and UD wrapped him up in the 4th today. Guess what happened? A three point play. That's why even though what Posey did was excessive, it was the proper thing to do because it saved the Heat 2 points at the time. I don't think you can say it has no place in basketball, unless you're willing to say that flopping has no place in basketball. If it saves your team points, then it's fair game.


I wasn't aware that flopping could result in an injury to the offensive player.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Flash is the Future said:


> Deng was on the break and UD wrapped him up in the 4th today. Guess what happened? A three point play. That's why even though what Posey did was excessive, it was the proper thing to do because it saved the Heat 2 points at the time. I don't think you can say it has no place in basketball, unless you're willing to say that flopping has no place in basketball. If it saves your team points, then it's fair game.


I still don't see how the in game strategy of the foul has any bearing on the conversation. Either you can foul someone going up for a shot without using a downwards motion to throw them in the ground or there are certain plays in which you can't sucessfully use a foul to eliminate the player's chance of converting a three point play without risking serious injury to him and comitting a foul so egregious that the league will suspend you. Either way, Posey's foul on Deng was completely illegitimate and more importantly, this thread is about Riley's unforgivable insistance that it was somehow a "big time flop" on Deng's part, a claim which no Heat fan has supported in this entire thread.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I still don't see how the in game strategy of the foul has any bearing on the conversation. Either you can foul someone going up for a shot without using a downwards motion to throw them in the ground or there are certain plays in which you can't sucessfully use a foul to eliminate the player's chance of converting a three point play without risking serious injury to him and comitting a foul so egregious that the league will suspend you. Either way, Posey's foul on Deng was completely illegitimate and more importantly, this thread is about Riley's unforgivable insistance that it was somehow a "big time flop" on Deng's part, a claim which no Heat fan has supported in this entire thread.


Of course not. Do you seriously think Riley believes that? It's all propoganda.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

TripleDouble said:


> I wasn't aware that flopping could result in an injury to the offensive player.


Basketball's a contact sport. If you don't like the fact that guys get injured, you could always try golf.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Flash is the Future said:


> Basketball's a contact sport. If you don't like the fact that guys get injured, you could always try golf.


Let me see if I can understand your argument: because players are not prohibited from making some contact with each other, any degree of violence should be tolerated? Do I copy?


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

TripleDouble said:


> Let me see if I can understand your argument: because players are not prohibited from making some contact with each other, any degree of violence should be tolerated? Do I copy?


The object of the game is to have your team score more points than the other team. If you can save two points for your team, then you do it in the least physical way possible. In that situation, that was the only way for Posey to prevent the potential AND1, so he did it. He was out of position and he saved his team two points. Sounds like a basketball play to me. This should only be tolerated if it is the last option on that particular play.If it's not, then it certainly shouldn't be tolerated. Of course there's retribution for this act in the form of a flagrant foul, but there's no need for anyone to get more the a one game suspension over it.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Flash is the Future said:


> The object of the game is to have your team score more points than the other team. If you can save two points for your team, then you do it in the least physical way possible. In that situation, that was the only way for Posey to prevent the potential AND1, so he did it. He was out of position and he saved his team two points. Sounds like a basketball play to me. This should only be tolerated if it is the last option on that particular play.If it's not, then it certainly shouldn't be tolerated. Of course there's retribution for this act in the form of a flagrant foul, but there's no need for anyone to get more the a one game suspension over it.


I have no problem with solid fouls that prevent layups. I see them and appreciate them all the time. Posey's was more violent than what it would have taken to prevent the layup. And, given his history including that inexcusable cheap shot on Hinrich, he should not be given the benefit of the doubt.


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## PowerWoofer (Jan 5, 2006)

Flash is the Future said:


> The object of the game is to have your team score more points than the other team. If you can save two points for your team, then you do it in the least physical way possible. In that situation, that was the only way for Posey to prevent the potential AND1, so he did it. He was out of position and he saved his team two points. Sounds like a basketball play to me. This should only be tolerated if it is the last option on that particular play.If it's not, then it certainly shouldn't be tolerated. Of course there's retribution for this act in the form of a flagrant foul, but there's no need for anyone to get more the a one game suspension over it.


Listen, I understand your point that you should try and stop players from making baskets, BUT THE LEAGUE HAS NO PLACE FOR GUYS WHO TRY TO INJURE OTHER PLAYERS IN ORDER TO SAVE A POINT OR TWO. Is that clear? Do you understand that Posey did a stupid thing, and although you see it as protecting a couple points, I see it as him being careless and almost injuring a player FOR NO GOOD REASON EXCEPT TO SAVE A POINT OR TWO. baitish. - KJ
Final point: Posey is a thug, doesn't care who he hurts, he should get a taste of his own medicine if he evens thinks about trying that **** ever again.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

TripleDouble said:


> I have no problem with solid fouls that prevent layups. I see them and appreciate them all the time. Posey's was more violent than what it would have taken to prevent the layup. And, given his history including that inexcusable cheap shot on Hinrich, he should not be given the benefit of the doubt.


He could've done what many posters suggested here by wrapping him up. Problem is, UD did that to Deng today and he still got the shot off and it wound up being a momentum crippling AND1. The Hinrich play _was_ a cheapshot. The Deng play was not.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

PowerWoofer said:


> Listen, I understand your point that you should try and stop players from making baskets, BUT THE LEAGUE HAS NO PLACE FOR GUYS WHO TRY TO INJURE OTHER PLAYERS IN ORDER TO SAVE A POINT OR TWO. Is that clear? Do you understand that Posey did a stupid thing, and although you see it as protecting a couple points, I see it as him being careless and almost injuring a player FOR NO GOOD REASON EXCEPT TO SAVE A POINT OR TWO. (edited in original post - KJ)
> 
> Final point: Posey is a thug, doesn't care who he hurts, he should get a taste of his own medicine if he evens thinks about trying that **** ever again.


Hey. You have your opinions and I have mine. :cheers:


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Let the mods do their jobs. Thank you. - KJ


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## theyoungsrm (May 23, 2003)

Flash is the Future said:


> Edited - KJ


unnecessary. - KJ


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

theyoungsrm said:


> or you could stop making dumb arguments


As a Heat fan, I'm bound to stick for my team. If it helps the team without causing serious injury, them I'm for ir.


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## Mark_R (May 1, 2006)

I hope the Bulls "hard foul" Dwade on his injured shoulder to prevent two points. That'd be sweet. I mean, we protected a basket from being made. 

Basketball's a contact sport and that shoulder has a big bullseye on it consciously and subconsciously. Run Wade through screens on that shoulder. Even lean a little into him if you have to.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Flash is the Future said:


> As a Heat fan, I'm bound to stick for my team. If it helps the team without causing serious injury, them I'm for ir.


Minor or even moderate injury is OK? :biggrin:


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

TripleDouble said:


> Minor or even moderate injury is OK? :biggrin:


If it works. It works.


Mark_R said:


> I hope the Bulls "hard foul" Dwade on his injured shoulder to prevent two points. That'd be sweet. I mean, we protected a basket from being made.
> 
> Basketball's a contact sport and that shoulder has a big bullseye on it consciously and subconsciously. Run Wade through screens on that shoulder. Even lean a little into him if you have to.


Would I be happy if this happened? No. But would I understand why and accept it as the right play? Yes.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Flash is the Future said:


> If it works. It works.
> 
> Would I be happy if this happened? No. But would I understand why and accept it as the right play? Yes.


Well there we have it. 

You support injuring players.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

TripleDouble said:


> Well there we have it.
> 
> You support injuring players.


I support making the correct play for your team. If that's the only option and it saves you 2 points, then it's the correct basketball play to make.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Flash is the Future said:


> Of course not. Do you seriously think Riley believes that? It's all propoganda.


Right and it's inflamatory and perhaps counterproductive. I'm not sure we disagree regarding the subject of this thread.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

JeremyB0001 said:


> Right and it's inflamatory and perhaps counterproductive. I'm not sure we disagree regarding the subject of this thread.


I'm not sure either. It's Riles's job to talk.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Flash is the Future said:


> The object of the game is to have your team score more points than the other team. If you can save two points for your team, then you do it in the least physical way possible. In that situation, that was the only way for Posey to prevent the potential AND1, so he did it. He was out of position and he saved his team two points. Sounds like a basketball play to me. This should only be tolerated if it is the last option on that particular play.If it's not, then it certainly shouldn't be tolerated. Of course there's retribution for this act in the form of a flagrant foul, but there's no need for anyone to get more the a one game suspension over it.


As far as I know, when defining flagrant fouls, the rule book does not take into account the extent to which the play was beneficial to the player's team or even the player's intent; it only discusses the degree of contact. Therefore, it would seem that the NBA's stance is that fouls likely to involve a certain amount of force/contact should not take place period. It seems indisputable to me that Posey's foul on Deng was dangerous that it should not be allowed regardless of whether or not it helps to win the game for the Heat. Players are not allowed to seriously risk the health of opposing players just because it saves their team a point.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

JeremyB0001 said:


> As far as I know, when defining flagrant fouls, the rule book does not take into account the extent to which the play was beneficial to the player's team or even the player's intent; it only discusses the degree of contact. Therefore, it would seem that the NBA's stance is that fouls likely to involve a certain amount of force/contact should not take place period. It seems indisputable to me that Posey's foul on Deng was dangerous that it should not be allowed regardless of whether or not it helps to win the game for the Heat. Players are not allowed to seriously risk the health of opposing players just because it saves their team a point.


I'm not saying it wasn't deserving of punishment. I'm just saying that ay the time, it was a smart play to make. It definately deserved punishment, but it helped the team out, and in doing that, Posey was effectively taking one forthe team.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Flash is the Future said:


> I'm not saying it wasn't deserving of punishment. I'm just saying that ay the time, it was a smart play to make. It definately deserved punishment, but it helped the team out, and in doing that, Posey was effectively taking one forthe team.


Posey the Martyr.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Flash is the Future said:


> I'm not saying it wasn't deserving of punishment. I'm just saying that ay the time, it was a smart play to make. It definately deserved punishment, but it helped the team out, and in doing that, Posey was effectively taking one forthe team.


It may have helped the team but I think it's wrong. I'm not sure how your logic prevents the Bulls from sending Michael Sweetney out to put a hit on Wade and take him out of the series. Losing Sweetney to a suspension would hurt the Bulls far less than it would hurt the Heat to lose Wade to injury. It would be deserving of punishment but smart. As you said, he would be taking one for the team.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I'm not sure how your logic prevents the Bulls from sending Michael Sweetney out to put a hit on Wade and take him out of the series.


It doesn't. I think he's banking on Shaq and Zo surviving a war of attrition.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Flash is the Future said:


> It's only against the Bulls that Posey has done this. BTW, that flagrant foul on Deng was successful. Deng went 1-2 from the line, and Chicago missed their next shot, so they only got 1 point instead of the two they would've gotten had Posey just let Deng dunk on him. Not to mention the fact that layups and dunks are game-changing plays. The Heat have a well publicized policy of no layups or dunks, and it's a damn good one at that. You might say that has no place in basketball, but if it prevents a possible AND1 for 3 points if he just handchecked him, or two points if he let him go, then it is an effective play.


You know what else would be effective? Undercutting Wade in the air and paralyzing his career. That would help the Bulls win the game. You might say there is no place in basketball for that, but if it prevents the Heat from scoring more and having a guy to close games, then it is an effective play. 

There is no difference in these two scenarios, except I took it a step further. It's the same barbaric mentality. The very idea of a hard foul suggests that you were beat on the play (off the dribble, or whatever) and were out of position, and the *only* way to prevent the opposing player from collecting the points he *deserves* for beating you on the basketball court and making a good basketball play is to resort to violence that makes that player feel like he is in danger and has to protect himself from being seriously hurt before making the shot.


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## buckums (Jun 25, 2004)

Flash is the Future said:


> I support making the correct play for your team. If that's the only option and it saves you 2 points, then it's the correct basketball play to make.


You obviously have not played much basketball. If you have to injure the opposing player to keep from losing a game, you are not the better team. By your logic, the Heat should just come out with baseball bats and put the Bulls in the hospital, because that ultimately saves you giving up points. 

Seriously, if you get beat, the 'correct basketball play' to make is to make an adjustment and not get beat again.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

buckums said:


> You obviously have not played much basketball. If you have to injure the opposing player to keep from losing a game, you are not the better team. By your logic, the Heat should just come out with baseball bats and put the Bulls in the hospital, because that ultimately saves you giving up points.
> 
> Seriously, if you get beat, the 'correct basketball play' to make is to make an adjustment and not get beat again.


Did anyone see that Riley corrected himself?

He didn't mean this play. He agreed it was a hard foul.

He was talking about Hinrich and Posey in the last playoff series.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Undercutting Wade wouldn't be the play to make unless it was the _only_ option. There's a pretty fine line here, and you guys like to put words in my mouth. If it's the only way of stopping the play from happening, then it's acceptable. But it's not acceptable if there are nicer ways of stopping the play. In Posey's situation, as I have already explained, it was the _only_ way of stopping the play.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Flash is the Future said:


> Undercutting Wade wouldn't be the play to make unless it was the _only_ option. There's a pretty fine line here, and you guys like to put words in my mouth. If it's the only way of stopping the play from happening, then it's acceptable. But it's not acceptable if there are nicer ways of stopping the play. In Posey's situation, as I have already explained, it was the _only_ way of stopping the play.


But your logic can still be taken to a ridiculous extreme. In the greater scheme of things, it's not worth injuring a player to prevent 2 points even if injuring him is the _only way_ to stop the basket. It's called sportsmanship and common sense. Basketball is a contact sport, but not a cage match. What if the only way to stop an easy fast break is to grab a gun from a security guard and shoot the guy? Is that justified too? (I'm exaggerating to make the point)


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

ViciousFlogging said:


> But your logic can still be taken to a ridiculous extreme. In the greater scheme of things, it's not worth injuring a player to prevent 2 points even if injuring him is the _only way_ to stop the basket. It's called sportsmanship and common sense. Basketball is a contact sport, but not a cage match. What if the only way to stop an easy fast break is to grab a gun from a security guard and shoot the guy? Is that justified too? (I'm exaggerating to make the point)


Damn the exagerations!  No that's not OK. But in the grand scheme of things, a player taking a hard fall to save two points like Deng did is justified.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Flash is the Future said:


> Damn the exagerations!  No that's not OK. But in the grand scheme of things, a player taking a hard fall to save two points like Deng did is justified.


According to who? Apparently the league thinks it warrants a suspension.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

JeremyB0001 said:


> According to who? Apparently the league thinks it warrants a suspension.


I agree, it was a flagrant 2 foul, and it warranted a suspension. But it was the right play for him to make.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Flash is the Future said:


> I agree, it was a flagrant 2 foul, and it warranted a suspension. But it was the right play for him to make.


The NBA seems to think differently. God I used to not really care about Heat fans, but you guys are just irking me hardcore. The whining about the refs, defending the ubersucky James Posey. I didn't realize winning a title turned an entire fan base into *******s.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

T.Shock said:


> The NBA seems to think differently. God I used to not really care about Heat fans, but you guys are just irking me hardcore. The whining about the refs, defending the ubersucky James Posey. I didn't realize winning a title turned an entire fan base into *******s.


The NBA thinks it was a flagrant 2 foul meriting a suspension. Just because it deserved punishment doesn't mean it wasn't the right play, even when you weigh in the suspension. I'd be careful about generalizing the entire fan base if I were you... Not every Heat fan agrees with me.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Flash is the Future said:


> The NBA thinks it was a flagrant 2 foul meriting a suspension. Just because it deserved punishment doesn't mean it wasn't the right play, even when you weigh in the suspension. I'd be careful about generalizing the entire fan base if I were you... Not every Heat fan agrees with me.


You do know you can prevent someone from scoring a basket without grabbing them by the shoulder and throwing them to the floor right? I mean, if basketball was played the way you suggest, it would degenerate into a UFC match. It's the right play to trip someone from behind if they beat you off the dribble. Do you do it? Not if you care about basketball at all. Bulls should call up some CIA agents, put them on the floor to start the game, judo chop the hell out of Wade and Shaq, get ejected. Hey, it's the right play.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Flash is the Future said:


> The NBA thinks it was a flagrant 2 foul meriting a suspension. Just because it deserved punishment doesn't mean it wasn't the right play, even when you weigh in the suspension. I'd be careful about generalizing the entire fan base if I were you... Not every Heat fan agrees with me.


So you'd be cool if Wade beat Hinrich off the dribble, drove to the basket, and then Nocioni grabbed him and purposely threw him down on his left shoulder? Someone needs to call the Bulls right away. Hey, it's the right play, so who cares? I'd rather have Wade out if it meant sacrificing Noc.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

T.Shock said:


> You do know you can prevent someone from scoring a basket without grabbing them by the shoulder and throwing them to the floor right? I mean, if basketball was played the way you suggest, it would degenerate into a UFC match. It's the right play to trip someone from behind if they beat you off the dribble. Do you do it? Not if you care about basketball at all. Bulls should call up some CIA agents, put them on the floor to start the game, judo chop the hell out of Wade and Shaq, get ejected. Hey, it's the right play.


I don't think you haven't read my other posts clearly enough. It's only acceptable if it's the _only_ way in that particular situation to stop the potential 3 point play. In that situation, that was the only thing Posey could do because he was out of position. UD was in the same situation vs. Deng in the 4th quarter yesterday, and he tried to wrap Deng up. Guess what? Deng still got the shot off and it gave the Bulls an insurmountable 9 point lead on his 3 point play. Sometimes you have to commit an extremely hard foul to keep a player from getting the shot off. If it saves the team points, then you just accept the punishment and move on.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

T.Shock said:


> So you'd be cool if Wade beat Hinrich off the dribble, drove to the basket, and then Nocioni grabbed him and purposely threw him down on his left shoulder? Someone needs to call the Bulls right away. Hey, it's the right play, so who cares? I'd rather have Wade out if it meant sacrificing Noc.


If that was the _only_ way to stop Wade from getting the shot off, then I'd accept it as a basketball play. Would I like it? No. But would I understand why it happened? Yes, because if that was the only way to stop him from getting then shot off, it was a quality play.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Flash is the Future said:


> I don't think you haven't read my other posts clearly enough. It's only acceptable if it's the _only_ way in that particular situation to stop the potential 3 point play. In that situation, that was the only thing Posey could do because he was out of position. UD was in the same situation vs. Deng in the 4th quarter yesterday, and he tried to wrap Deng up. Guess what? Deng still got the shot off and it gave the Bulls an insurmountable 9 point lead on his 3 point play. Sometimes you have to commit an extremely hard foul to keep a player from getting the shot off. If it saves the team points, then you just accept the punishment and move on.


Oh my god. This isn't ultimate fighting, it's basketball. I can't believe this thread has lasted 8 pages. Bulls fans: hit ignore, take a deep breath, whatever, let's stop wasting bandwidth arguing this obviously inane point...


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

jbulls said:


> Oh my god. This isn't ultimate fighting, it's basketball. I can't believe this thread has lasted 8 pages. Bulls fans: hit ignore, take a deep breath, whatever, let's stop wasting bandwidth arguing this obviously inane point...


I've already said this thread is best off locked IMO. We'll just have to agree to disagree :cheers:


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

It does seem like we're just going in circles. I think I will lock it, since I don't see anything else productive coming from this topic and tensions risk getting high.

PM me if you disagree, and I'll reconsider.


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## PowerWoofer (Jan 5, 2006)

*Final word on the Deng-Posey from me..*

I just wanted to say this final bit, since the othr thread was locked (I'm expecting this one to get locked as well soon enough):


If you believe that possibly injuring a guy on a play to save a couple points for your team is the RIGHT play to make, or BEST play to make that is available, you are obviously watching the WRONG sport.

Injury is NEVERRRRR an option when considering how to stop a player from scoring on you. If worse comes to worse, and you get beat on a play, do what most player actually do: take it like a *****, accept that you got beat, and go back down on the other end and do something productive for your team. Don't risk injury to another player because there's nothing else you can do. Just let him score, because there is no other GOOD play to make in that situation.

End of story.


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