# Do the Knicks suck?



## Attila (Jul 23, 2003)

Seriously, how many years is it going to take before you have a team that contends? Do you think Isiah is taking the team in the right direction?


----------



## bkbballer16 (Apr 28, 2005)

I honestly dont think he is doing anything


----------



## Drk Element (Nov 10, 2004)

bkbballer16 said:


> I honestly dont think he is doing anything


agreed, you guys have the biggest payroll in the nba, yet you still don't make it into the playoffs. that sucks.


----------



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

Yeah, you guys definitely brought some insight that we may have never known.

[/sarcasm]


----------



## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

don't worry about us. the knicks may not have great management, or great players, but we do have great fans who are patient, but will hold the players and management accountable for their actions.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Attila said:


> Seriously, how many years is it going to take before you have a team that contends? Do you think Isiah is taking the team in the right direction?


Thats a very good question....When you say "contend" are you talking getting deep into the playoffs??Cause that is a long ways away....

Zeke is midway thru what i like to call a 3 year plan.He took a shot at being competitive by going after Marbury and the jury is still out on that one.I was in favor of the trade...He signed J.C who i think is a very servicable backup,and if he gets it together a potential star.He drafted Ariza who was a great pick..And he kept Sweetney over Lampe which was the right move

Keep in mind that he walked into a mess created by Layden.The trade of Camby and Nene for Dyss absolutely killed us as Dyss immediately went down.It destroyed us up front...I believe had Zeke been the GM at the time,Amare would be our starting PF.Zeke s a very good judge of talent,if nothing else

His trade of Doleac/KVH for TT/Naz was probably a wash.....

This is where it gets interesting.Naz,our only 5 was traded midway thru the year for 2 more PF and draft picks.It would seem that Zeke now recognised that he needed to reverse directions and start a rebuilding process.The proof will be in the pudding by what Zeke does with the expiring contracts of Penny,TT and later H20...If he takes on the likes of Webber(injured,older and a LONG contract),he should be fired immediately.Time will tell



> you guys have the biggest payroll in the nba


remember he didnt create it,he inherited it....He took a shot with Marbury and Penny,and penny is off the books this year and will likely be bought out.

I like what Zeke has done,my personal feelings for marbury put aside.If he is truly commited to rebuilding I think he is doing a great job.He MUST get a 5,be it Kwame thru a trade or thru the draft.Unfortunately there are slim pickings.Frye may be the only player who can contribute immediately.If Zeke decides Bynum/petro has huge upside,I am willing to wait a couple of years.We have to pay the Piper sooner or later.I just hope we are truly on the rebuild path..

And somewhere along the path,I hope we get a coach who has a system...


----------



## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

:jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: 
:jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop::jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: 
holy **** You Guys Mean To Tell Me That We Have An Overpriced Team??? What About All Our Powerforwards, They're Still Good Right? Are You Sure We Suck Because We've Almost Been To The Playoffs A Couple Of Times In The Last 5 Years And Oh Boy Let Me Tell You Did We Ever Do Well When We Got There. Well Thanks A Lot Guys You've Given Me Some New Things To Think About. I Certainly Never Saw Things From This Viewpoint.


----------



## Biggestfanoftheknicks (Apr 14, 2005)

in Other Shocking News I Have Just Discovered That The Basketball Is In Fact Orange, As Opposed To Mauve Will This Thread Of Awesome Discovery Never End? God I Hope Not.


----------



## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

this is a quality thread

:laugh:


----------



## Kirk20 (Dec 13, 2004)

:laugh::laugh:


----------



## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

For sure they suck. :biggrin:


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Maybe....*

But the Heat and the Knicks are both watching the finals at the same bar..


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Maybe....*



alphadog said:


> But the Heat and the Knicks are both watching the finals at the same bar..


and the lakers are buying this round


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

Debt Collector said:


> don't worry about us. the knicks may not have great management, or great players, but we do have great fans who are patient, but will hold the players and management accountable for their actions.


 I didn't know you were a Knicks fan ! Oh wait...of course...Bernard King's been on your avatar forever...my bad !


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

So after the next season, who exactly comes off the books ?


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

tt and penny followed by H2o the next year....thats close to 50 mil


----------



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

taylor and Shandon also expire with allan if i remember right


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

PennyHardaway said:


> taylor and Shandon also expire with allan if i remember right


you are right,and taylor is close to 10 mil...i dont know how much we boughtout shandon for,but i will assume that another 5 mil.....

thats amazing...we have close to 65 million coming off in the next 2 years...

we really do suck....

look at the lineup

TT
Penny
Taylor
H20
Shandon

would you pay 65 million for that squad???


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

truth said:


> you are right,and taylor is close to 10 mil...i dont know how much we boughtout shandon for,but i will assume that another 5 mil.....
> 
> thats amazing...we have close to 65 million coming off in the next 2 years...
> 
> ...


 See I never thought my faith in the Knicks would be shaken...and then Scott Layden actually signed those contracts...disgusting. Well in 2 years the pain and the suffering come to an end right ? I'll take anyone. **** give Lebron a 7 year 200 million dollar contract if you have to, but get him in a Knicks jersey.


----------



## Drk Element (Nov 10, 2004)

Debt Collector said:


> don't worry about us. the knicks may not have great management, or great players, but we do have great fans who are patient, but will hold the players and management accountable for their actions.


very true, and i respect that.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Drk Element said:


> very true, and i respect that.


Drk,as you will see,the NY fans are much different than the L.A. fans...We are brutally honest and hold everybody accountable..In fact,Marbury has one foot on a banana peel and many a fan wouldnt mind seeing him take his act elsewhere...


----------



## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

truth said:


> Drk,as you will see,the NY fans are much different than the L.A. fans...We are brutally honest and hold everybody accountable..In fact,Marbury has one foot on a banana peel and many a fan wouldnt mind seeing him take his act elsewhere...



our fans are most like celtics and sixers fans. thats why you cant take a diehard knicks fans seriously - we sometimes have radical views :laugh:


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Debt Collector said:


> our fans are most like celtics and sixers fans. thats why you cant take a diehard knicks fans seriously - we sometimes have radical views :laugh:


thats true.... i was posting in the laker forum and within 3 days they wanted to have me banned.I had mods all over me...and i was being mellow....we are a different breed :curse:


----------



## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

The Knicks have a lot of potential with so many large salaries coming off the book soon. If Zeke was able to land some post help, the Knicks could move up the ladder rather quickly. The roster isn't bad and in two years most of the overpaid players will be gone. As a Piston fan I always want to see Zeke do well and I am hoping he can start to build after a few mistakes are off the team.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

kamego said:


> The Knicks have a lot of potential with so many large salaries coming off the book soon. If Zeke was able to land some post help, the Knicks could move up the ladder rather quickly. The roster isn't bad and in two years most of the overpaid players will be gone. As a Piston fan I always want to see Zeke do well and I am hoping he can start to build after a few mistakes are off the team.


post hep...amen....the only relief i see is Kwame Brown.....And perhaps Darko

In the Draft,there really isnt alot of immediate help...Maybe Frye,Splitter is out,and Petro and Bynum are big time projects...My guess is Zeke goes with Frye.He has put on 16 pounds of muscle and is bigger than Dalembert,and a far better offensive player.Plus,hes perfect for Starbury and the pick and roll

Which leaves us in the unenviable position of drafting the best talent out there,which may be Wright...


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

to me the salary situation is overblown.

If there are no restrictions on spending it doesn't matter what the cap is at.

the only reason it matters at all is because sometimes you have to trade people away, and in that case its a detriment up to the last season of their deals....and then it becomes a big plus.

sometimes things happen , if houston was healthy there is no reason they wouldn't have made the playoofs despite it all.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> to me the salary situation is overblown.
> 
> If there are no restrictions on spending it doesn't matter what the cap is at.


Not sure i follow your logic...no retrictions on spending is a totally different situation than cap implications...

Being over the cap means you can NEVER compete in the free agent market..you can only sign and trade....The knicks have a 104 million dolar payroll,but they cant offer more than the MLE.How can you say that the cap doesnt affect us???

Look how quickly Phoenix turned it around by shedding marbury and penny.They then went out and picked up Q and nash in free agency.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

truth said:


> Not sure i follow your logic...no retrictions on spending is a totally different situation than cap implications...
> 
> Being over the cap means you can NEVER compete in the free agent market..you can only sign and trade....The knicks have a 104 million dolar payroll,but they cant offer more than the MLE.How can you say that the cap doesnt affect us???
> 
> Look how quickly Phoenix turned it around by shedding marbury and penny.They then went out and picked up Q and nash in free agency.


as of this moment only 4 teams are under the cap by enough they can offer more than the MLE to free agent , (N.O. , char. , atl. & Utah) and they had a combined record of 75-253. 

every other team that gets involved like seattle or cleveland will have to lose an important player to be a factor.

the free agent market is overrated , if a guy is really such a dynamo his team wont him go .

pho. got a great offseason last year , but thats extremely rare , and nash was let go because the mavericks of all teams(they are #2 in salaries at 91 mil.) thought his deal was overpaying for his services and when he 34 or 35 they will most likely be right. the mavericks by the way aren't actually regretting their decision , they won 6 more games without him.

the other teams got their conf. finals by getting a good coach , possibly getting lucky in the draft , but definitely drafting shrewdly , and switching out players who didn't fit and getting players via trade who did....and adding an MLE player or so .

i dont see the feee agent market making a big difference in the top teams in the nba . it generally gives a leg up to the bottom feeders, but it always takes more .

the teams that make the playoffs in the nba generally aren't players in free agency for more than the MLE , and thats who the knicks are really competing with for services of players and thats what they have to offer.

the knicks have several players(probably in the neighborhood of 9 or 10) who can be good players on the rotations of winning nba teams , teams like the hornets , hawks and bobcats (the 3 lowest salaried teams in the nba) dont have anything close to that number and because they dont pay for quality players they dont have any . and thats why they can be players in free agency and why good teams generally cant.

that is why i am pretty much against to the knicks shedding salary , they will simply be getting rid of players for nothing ....the hopes that the 1 or 2 guys they can bring in ...in 3 or 4 years is the equal of the 6 or 7 guys they just let go for no other reason than how much they make....and thats not even considering that supposedly free agency deals will be getting shorter , making it harder to cash in on other teams frugalness, with ending deals.

the knicks time is now to take advantage of their huge payroll and apperantly limitless resources.


----------



## LakerLunatic (Mar 1, 2005)

They have never done anything to the Lakers (except mr childs) so i dont mind them, i actually kind of like them, but there really really weird, akward, and dont look like there going anywhere. One thing i like, is Knick Fans, to me, probably one of the most loyal fans in the N.B.A


----------



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

LakerLunatic said:


> They have never done anything to the Lakers (except mr childs) so i dont mind them, i actually kind of like them, but there really really weird, akward, and dont look like there going anywhere. One thing i like, is Knick Fans, to me, probably one of the most loyal fans in the N.B.A


knicks whooped the lakers *** in game 7 of the nba finals in 1970. then of course, the 4-1 win in the finals over LA in 73. 

........but yeah, for the next like 35 years the knicks did nothing to LA.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> the knicks time is now to take advantage of their huge payroll and apperantly limitless resources


Interesting points and I would tend to agree that the suns were the exception to the rule...

So what you are saying is the knicks can only force another teams hand by offering a young player the MLE,since that is all they have..

I also agree with you on players who are resticted as most teams will do everything in their power to do a sign and trade..

Where I completely disagree is in the unrestricted free agent market.I dont think the Knicks can ever hope to land a Ray Allen with the cap situation


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

truth said:


> Interesting points and I would tend to agree that the suns were the exception to the rule...
> 
> So what you are saying is the knicks can only force another teams hand by offering a young player the MLE,since that is all they have..
> 
> ...



the knicks can force teams hand only if the RFA in question doesn't want to be on that team anymore . they can threaten to take the QO if a deal isn't worked out.

last year jamal crawford was a RFA yet armed with only the MLE the knicks were able to help crawford leverage his way out of chicago .

the bulls accepted cap relief , crawford got the team of his choice and a significant raise....everyone got something.

the same thing can happen with kwame brown or a player like him , whose value as a free agent is about where crawford's was last year, who can threaten the wizards with taking the QO which would pay him nearly 7 mil. which is probably higher than he would have next year in a free agent contract.

they dont want him and he doesn't want them, so its really a matter of selling brown on the knicks and then giving the wizards an enticement to make a deal happen....whereas they can do nothing but risk either getting nothing for him if he signs a deal for more than they are willing to pay or being forced to hold onto him for another year in turmoil. a similar situation killed the clippers a few years back with mickael olawakandi. something i am positive they dont want.

the knicks not really caring so much about salary but more about talent are in a position they can overpay for brown and outbid other teams in this scenerio.

the knicks can get a ray allen type player during the season with an ending deal ....not in the offseason , unless something unforseen happens.

baron davis is a great example of that last season.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

JC vs Kwame is not a great example...For whatever reason,Zeke was the only person who really wanted JC at that price....

It never became a bidding war and Chicago relented.....

The Knicks really wanted Damp,but he was pursued by others..

The Knicks can not force the hands of UFA,they can only be a passive participant..

I hear ya


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

truth said:


> JC vs Kwame is not a great example...For whatever reason,Zeke was the only person who really wanted JC at that price....
> 
> It never became a bidding war and Chicago relented.....
> 
> ...


at one point there were 9 teams in the bidding for crawford .

pax declared he wanted cap space in the way eddie robinson and JYD moving on to the team he traded crawford on ....and like that there was only one team left. they struck a deal and took only jerome williams. if the bigger deal had come through as rumored crawford would have gotten more , 7 years 70 mil. , when the knicks refused eddie robinson the deal fell through temporarily and crawford's salary fell as well.

crawford also had a standing deal with the bulls at 6 years 39 mil....he wanted the knicks and that 7th year after 6 years the knicks deal will pay him 45 mil. if he wanted to be a bull he would be one, and thats why selling the knicks to kwame is so important.

the knicks could have had damp if they ponied up the draft picks, but chose not to and went for crawford instead who basically cost the same amount(ending deals) sans picks.

i agree with you the knicks really cant do much in the free agent market as far as UFA's go. but both brown and crawford are rfa's, if brown wants to come to ny , a deal can be made ....most likely either jyd or kurt will be offered , depending on what the wizards want. they really are in a position to barter but not dictate, they cant choose what team kwame likes, they can only try to get someone once he decides.


----------



## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

As long as Allan Houston is healthy next season and they use their pick wisely, they'll have a solid team.

C: Channing Frye...Kurt Thomas
PF: Mike Sweetney...Kurt Thomas
SF: Allan Houston...Tim Thomas...Trevor Ariza
SG: Jamal Crawford...Anfernee Hardaway
PG: Stephon Marbury...FA Signing


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Damian Necronamous said:


> As long as Allan Houston is healthy next season and they use their pick wisely, they'll have a solid team.
> 
> C: Channing Frye...Kurt Thomas
> PF: Mike Sweetney...Kurt Thomas
> ...


thats a monster if......The problem is what if hes NOT..I think you meant to have h20 as a SG,and penny is a goner,one way or another...Probably for gasol :biggrin: 



> at one point there were 9 teams in the bidding for crawford


Dis gruntled,are you sure about that????


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

truth said:


> thats a monster if......The problem is what if hes NOT..I think you meant to have h20 as a SG,and penny is a goner,one way or another...Probably for gasol :biggrin:
> 
> 
> 
> *Dis gruntled,are you sure about that?*???


yes, i found an article mentioning 5 of them, in addition to the knicks



> Other teams said to be interested in the former Michigan Wolverine include the Miami Heat , Sacramento Kings , and Minnesota Timberwolves , while teams like the Denver Nuggets and Utah Jazz were also interested.



http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_a.../knicks_with_best_shot_at_obtaining_crawford/

i believe the other 3 were the suns , nets and pacers.


----------

