# Something Rotten In Denmark? (Miles Saga)



## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

(Mods, please merge if this has already been asked/discussed. Thanks.)


I mean, if Miles has alrady been checked out by at least two different specialists, how could there even be a "consideration" of him playing at this point? 

If he does, then wouldn't that seriously place into question the NBA's choices of doctors and their results therein?

What am I missing here?


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## Webster's Dictionary (Feb 26, 2004)

It has been discussed a little in the "Miles Works Out for Boston" thread, but basically the doctors said he would completely destroy his knee if he played on it, but he could possibly still play on it if he didn't mind knee replacement surgery in a year.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

ABM said:


> (Mods, please merge if this has already been asked/discussed. Thanks.)
> 
> 
> I mean, if Miles has alrady been checked out by at least two different specialists, how could there even be a "consideration" of him playing at this point?
> ...



Hopefully the mods will leave this one alone and not merge it


There could be a couple of things at play here ABM

1. Teams doing an agent a favor in order to maybe get a player down the road
2. Teams putting the notion in players heads that they might not be the only option
3. Ego. Every GM and head coach thinks they can be the ones to be known as the Miles whisperer.
4. Lastly, screw Portland out of 9 mil in cap space


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

mediocre man said:


> Hopefully the mods will leave this one alone and not merge it
> 
> 
> There could be a couple of things at play here ABM
> ...


5. Miles' knee isn't as bad as Portland claimed it is/was.


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## alext42083 (Nov 7, 2003)

Wouldn't his knee be pretty bad if independent doctors claimed he couldn't play on it? And not just the Blazers thinking he couldn't play.

I'm not believing any team will sign Darius with all the baggage he comes with..


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## Crimson the Cat (Dec 30, 2002)

> Blake, center Joel Przybilla (28) and forward/center Raef LaFrentz (33) are the only players on the roster older than 24, and the 6-11 LaFrentz is crucial because his contract of nearly $13 million is expiring after this season -- opening the door for either a trade or free-agent acquisition down the road. They off-loaded problematic Darius Miles with a bum knee and more than $27 million on the salary cap with what was ruled a career-ending injury. (And even if he does make a comeback, it won't count on the cap -- although Allen would have to pay the salary as opposed to insurance coverage.)


I found the last sentence very interesting. Is Kahn correct? 

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8324086/How-the-Blazers-got-back-on-track


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Fork said:


> 5. Miles' knee isn't as bad as Portland claimed it is/was.




So Portland had the independent Dr. that looked at him also on the hook too? KP is amazing, but I'm not sure he's good enough to influence a Dr. provided by the NBA AND PLAYERS UNION.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

mediocre man said:


> So Portland had the independent Dr. that looked at him also on the hook too? KP is amazing, but I'm not sure he's good enough to influence a Dr. provided by the NBA AND PLAYERS UNION.


My point is...

1. Miles is told he has a career ending injury.
2. The Blazers cut him.
3. He's cleared for a workout less than 3 months later.

Sooo...it's bad enough to be 'career ending' yet the league clears him to workout? What? If he was hurt THAT bad, there's no way he gets cleared. They have to undergo a physical just to work out. 

I'm not saying anybody lied...but there's 'career ending' and there's 'CAREER ENDING.' The quote from the league (when all this was announced) was: An independent medical examiner...examined Miles and determined that the damage to Miles' right knee is severe enough to qualify as a career-ending injury.

I can't recall the exact wording of the definition of 'career ending' injuries in the NBA, but I do recall that there's a big gray area. Something about the size of an injured area I think? But the size of the injury doesn't neccesarily mean he's DONE...it just means it's bad. Bad enough to qualify *technically* as career ending, but not bad enough to in fact *be* career ending.


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## blazermaniaisback (Jun 7, 2007)

wait... so did the team or the league have a doctor look at it who said its career ending? I would think both would right?


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

duckworthstolemylunch said:


> wait... so did the team or the league have a doctor look at it who said its career ending? I would think both would right?




The league and the players association had an independent Dr look at it. That is the Dr that determined it was a career ending injury.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

duckworthstolemylunch said:


> wait... so did the team or the league have a doctor look at it who said its career ending? I would think both would right?


Team doctor examined him first. (or at least a team appointed doctor.) Then the team asked for a 2nd opinion. The league and players association appointed a guy to examine his knee...he agreed with the findings of the 1st doctor.

But then how does he get cleared for a workout by the Celtics less than 3 months later?


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Fork said:


> Team doctor examined him first. (or at least a team appointed doctor.) Then the team asked for a 2nd opinion. The league and players association appointed a guy to examine his knee...he agreed with the findings of the 1st doctor.
> 
> But then how does he get cleared for a workout by the Celtics less than 3 months later?



I don't think a player needs to be cleared to work out for a team?


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## blazermaniaisback (Jun 7, 2007)

sounds like its the league's and player's associations problem then. If they got a guy who said Miles is done why should we have to take the blunt of someone's mistake? If he doesn't need to get checked before working out then we should still be ok especially if the doctors who will have to clear him to play are the same doctors who ended his career. 

Or at least they should be the ones to look at him and they can say he shouldn't then we will be cleared. 

If you ask me if he had the chance to make a little more money then end his playing time with a bit more cash in his pocket even though he will have to have surgery I bet he would do it. For what he would get I would too.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

Hell the way I look at it, the players union reps are probably just glad to have something to do, so they do it. eace:


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## PapaG (Oct 4, 2004)

mediocre man said:


> The league and the players association had an independent Dr look at it. That is the Dr that determined it was a career ending injury.


I doubt Miles would even pass a physical at this point regardless of his "impressive workout". I wonder what that means, anyhow? Were they impressed that he didn't bring ice cream on the court with him? Were they impressed he wasn't wearing a Foam Dome when he arrived at the gym?

If the workout was so "impressive", why not sign Miles before some other lucky team gets him?


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

PapaG said:


> I doubt Miles would even pass a physical at this point regardless of his "impressive workout". I wonder what that means, anyhow? Were they impressed that he didn't bring ice cream on the court with him? Were they impressed he wasn't wearing a Foam Dome when he arrived at the gym?
> 
> If the workout was so "impressive", why not sign Miles before some other lucky team gets him?



I would assume the league source that said his workout was impressive was his manager.


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## PapaG (Oct 4, 2004)

Fork said:


> Team doctor examined him first. (or at least a team appointed doctor.) *Then the team asked for a 2nd opinion.* The league and players association appointed a guy to examine his knee...he agreed with the findings of the 1st doctor.
> 
> But then how does he get cleared for a workout by the Celtics less than 3 months later?


Actually, the CBA requires a "second opinion" from a truly independent doctor in order to classify the player as a medical retirement.

Miles pehaps had dropped some LBs from whatever triggered the positive drug test and could actually dribble the ball. Big whoop. Had he truly been "impressive", given his natural talent, the Celtics should have immediately signed him in order to keep other teams away from him.


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## blazermaniaisback (Jun 7, 2007)

well I'm sure the the failed drug test might have (if its true) put a halt to it.


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## PapaG (Oct 4, 2004)

duckworthstolemylunch said:


> well I'm sure the the failed drug test might have (if its true) put a halt to it.


Why? If Darius was so "impressive" in this "workout", what's the big deal with him missing the first 10 games of the season?


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

mediocre man said:


> I don't think a player needs to be cleared to work out for a team?


I'm guessing that you DO have to be medically cleared.

What if they bring him in and he REALLY blows his knee out. Shaun Livingston style. And they have to amputate his leg. The team, and the league, has a MASSIVE lawsuit on their hands. Just because a player claims he's good to go, doesn't mean the team would just let them come and workout. I just can't believe that they'd risk that kind of thing.


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## blazermaniaisback (Jun 7, 2007)

what is the rules with the 10 day contracts? If anyone knows? Does that count towards a roster spot?


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## PapaG (Oct 4, 2004)

Fork said:


> I'm guessing that you DO have to be medically cleared.
> 
> *What if they bring him in and he REALLY blows his knee out.* Shaun Livingston style. And they have to amputate his leg. The team, and the league, has a MASSIVE lawsuit on their hands. Just because a player claims he's good to go, doesn't mean the team would just let them come and workout. I just can't believe that they'd risk that kind of thing.



His knee is already injured to the point that he is medically retired. Are you saying that any player who has a tryout must first have a complete physical by a team doctor? That doesn't happen for potential draft picks; why would Miles be any different, especially considering the results of his two most recent evaluations?


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

Well somebody could call up Jeff Giloooly and makes sure he stays medically retired. :biggrin:


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## PapaG (Oct 4, 2004)

duckworthstolemylunch said:


> what is the rules with the 10 day contracts? If anyone knows? Does that count towards a roster spot?


Roster spot - YES

Maximum 10-day contracts for a player - 2

That would get Darius almost through his 10-game suspension. At that point, he gets the veteran minimum (at a minimum) for the rest of the season. And he'd still have to play 10 games to put himself back on Portland's cap.

None of this adds up. It would be stupid for the Celtics to leak an "impressive" workout; if it was so impressive, sign him before a rival does.


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## blazermaniaisback (Jun 7, 2007)

PapaG said:


> Roster spot - YES
> 
> Maximum 10-day contracts for a player - 2
> 
> ...


Thanks... and I agree.

(edit)

Wait... if they wanted to screw us maybe they can say he looked good thinking that someone could try him out in hopes the other team could get him cleared so we would have to eat his cap money? Its all a conspiracy theory but you never know.


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## ehizzy3 (Jun 12, 2006)

someone have paul allens number? for a flat fee i can make sure d-miles never plays in the NBA again................


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

ehizzy3 said:


> someone have paul allens number? for a flat fee i can make sure d-miles never plays in the NBA again................


I never knew you were a Blazers fan, Tonya.


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## TLo (Dec 27, 2006)

You guys might want to read this.

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/07/08/darius-miles-could-really-screw-the-blazers/


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## PapaG (Oct 4, 2004)

TLo said:


> You guys might want to read this.
> 
> http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/07/08/darius-miles-could-really-screw-the-blazers/


There is a lot wrong with that blog post.


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## rtg (Aug 17, 2006)

If Miles plays against the Blazers next year I expect that will be his last game of the season. What is Tanya Harding doing now days btw?


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## blazermaniaisback (Jun 7, 2007)

three T Harding remarks in one thread? Oh wow...


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

There is *no such thing *as an independent doctor, and doctors are wrong in their diagnosis, (or in this case predictions) about 1/4th of the time.

It ain't as easy as it looks.


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## HispanicCausinPanic (Jul 2, 2005)

I used to think she was so HOT! She used to go to a chiropractor in the early to mid 90's right across from where I worked on NE Sandy. We used to whistle and bark at her every time we saw her! Something about trashy chicks in jacked up trucks!


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

MARIS61 said:


> There is *no such thing *as an independent doctor, and doctors are wrong in their diagnosis, (or in this case predictions) about 1/4th of the time.
> 
> It ain't as easy as it looks.


I agree that it aint as easy as it looks, but for crissakes, where did you pull that 25% figure from? Do you really believe that doctors are only accurately diagnose an injury a measly 3 out of 4 times? Let me know how it works when you do some blood letting on yourself to alleviate your febrile dementia.


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## Perfection (May 10, 2004)

Can someone explain to me why the name of the title says "Something Rotten In *Denmark*"? Denmark is a fantastic place where I studied for a semester, last year. Just seems odd. Thanks.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

Perfection said:


> Can someone explain to me why the name of the title says "Something Rotten In *Denmark*"? Denmark is a fantastic place where I studied for a semester, last year. Just seems odd. Thanks.


Blame Shakespeare:



> A line from the play Hamlet, by William Shakespeare. An officer of the palace guard says this after the ghost of the dead king appears, walking over the palace walls. “Something is rotten in the state of Denmark” is used to describe corruption or a situation in which something is wrong.


barfo


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

HispanicCausinPanic said:


> in the early to mid 90's right across from where I worked on NE Sandy.


You were a hooker?

barfo


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## HispanicCausinPanic (Jul 2, 2005)

NO! I was a companion for hire!


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Perfection said:


> Can someone explain to me why the name of the title says "Something Rotten In *Denmark*"? Denmark is a fantastic place where I studied for a semester, last year. Just seems odd. Thanks.


Not studying Shakespeare evidently? 

You know, when I see something I don't understand, sometimes I google it before I ask any questions.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

Fork said:


> You know, when I see something I don't understand, sometimes I google it before I ask any questions.


Sometimes I just ask people. "People" is admittedly pretty old technology. I'm hoping we eventually supplant both them and Google with nanobots that swarm the earth in a gooey gray mass of delicious wisdom. Then we won't have to ask anyone or anything about anything. We'll wake up in the morning with little robotic bugs shouting in our ears, "SHAKESPEARE WROTE HAMLET! HERE'S SOME GREAT QUOTES YOU CAN DROP ON ALL YOUR NANOBOT FRIENDS!"

Sweet, sweet progress.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

mook said:


> Sometimes I just ask people. "People" is admittedly pretty old technology. I'm hoping we eventually supplant both them and Google with nanobots that swarm the earth in a gooey gray mass of delicious wisdom. Then we won't have to ask anyone or anything about anything. We'll wake up in the morning with little robotic bugs shouting in our ears, "SHAKESPEARE WROTE HAMLET! HERE'S SOME GREAT QUOTES YOU CAN DROP ON ALL YOUR NANOBOT FRIENDS!"
> 
> Sweet, sweet progress.


Please, you just showed how ignorant you are. People can't be friends with Nanobots.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> Not studying Shakespeare evidently?
> 
> You know, when I see something I don't understand, sometimes I google it before I ask any questions.


Nothing wrong with asking questions...


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

It's kinda funny to me, sometimes, how various threads become rather amoebic....taking on a whole 'nother life of their own. :lol:


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

Dan said:


> Please, you just showed how ignorant you are. People can't be friends with Nanobots.


I never took you for a nanobotist bigot.


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

To be more true to Hamlet, the title of the thread should really be changed to, "Something is rotten in the state of Denmark?" But that's just quibbling, I suppose.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

mook said:


> I never took you for a nanobotist bigot.


Then you haven't been paying attention..or to put in a language you and your kind will understand..

01010100 01101000 01100101 01101110 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01101000 01100001 01110110 01100101 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01100010 01100101 01100101 01101110 00100000 01110000 01100001 01111001 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01100001 01110100 01110100 01100101 01101110 01110100 01101001 01101111 01101110 00100001 00100000 01001001 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01100010 01100101 01101100 01101001 01100101 01110110 01100101 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100001 01100011 01110100 01110101 01100001 01101100 01101100 01111001 00100000 01110100 01101111 01101111 01101011 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101001 01101101 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01101100 01101111 01101111 01101011 00100000 01110101 01110000 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100010 01101001 01101110 01100001 01110010 01111001 00100000 01110100 01110010 01100001 01101110 01110011 01101100 01100001 01110100 01101111 01110010 00100000 01101111 01101110 01101100 01101001 01101110 01100101 00101110 00100000 01001001 00100000 01100001 01101101 00100000 01010011 01110000 01100001 01110010 01110100 01100001 01100011 01110101 01110011 00100001


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## Perfection (May 10, 2004)

Fork said:


> Not studying Shakespeare evidently?
> 
> You know, when I see something I don't understand, sometimes I google it before I ask any questions.


Sorry, I went to public school.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

Dan said:


> Then you haven't been paying attention..or to put in a language you and your kind will understand..
> 
> 01010100 01101000 01100101 01101110 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01101000 01100001 01110110 01100101 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01100010 01100101 01100101 01101110 00100000 01110000 01100001 01111001 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01100001 01110100 01110100 01100101 01101110 01110100 01101001 01101111 01101110 00100001 00100000 01001001 00100000 01100011 01100001 01101110 00100111 01110100 00100000 01100010 01100101 01101100 01101001 01100101 01110110 01100101 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01100001 01100011 01110100 01110101 01100001 01101100 01101100 01111001 00100000 01110100 01101111 01101111 01101011 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101001 01101101 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01101100 01101111 01101111 01101011 00100000 01110101 01110000 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100010 01101001 01101110 01100001 01110010 01111001 00100000 01110100 01110010 01100001 01101110 01110011 01101100 01100001 01110100 01101111 01110010 00100000 01101111 01101110 01101100 01101001 01101110 01100101 00101110 00100000 01001001 00100000 01100001 01101101 00100000 01010011 01110000 01100001 01110010 01110100 01100001 01100011 01110101 01110011 00100001


10010000001111001011011110111010100100000011001000110100100100111011010010110111000100111011101000010111000100000000011010000101000001101000010100100000
10110110001101100001000000111100101101111011101010111001000100000011000100110000101110011011001010010000001010111010010010100110001001100001000000110001
0011001010110110001101111011011100110011100100000011101000110111100100000011101010111001100101110


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

mook said:


> 10010000001111001011011110111010100100000011001000110100100100111011010010110111000100111011101000010111000100000000011010000101000001101000010100100000
> 10110110001101100001000000111100101101111011101010111001000100000011000100110000101110011011001010010000001010111010010010100110001001100001000000110001
> 0011001010110110001101111011011100110011100100000011101000110111100100000011101010111001100101110


Hey, hey! Keep it clean.


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## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

01001001 01100110 00100000 01001001 00100000 01100011 01110101 01110010 01110011 01100101 00100000 01101001 01101110 00100000 01100010 01101001 01101110 01100001 01110010 01111001 00101100 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01101011 01101001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01110011 01101000 01101001 01110100 00100000 01101101 01100001 01110011 01101011 01100101 01100100 00111111


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

MrJayremmie said:


> Nothing wrong with asking questions...


It's inefficient to ask an entire community a question that a 10 second google search would answer.

This is the reason that FAQs were invented. We'll just have to make a FAQ and put stuff about Shakespear in there, I guess.

Ed O.


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-33-34/Darius-Miles-and-that-Drug-Test.html

Henry Abott of Truehoop weighs in with a completely different take on the Miles 10 day suspension ...


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## Perfection (May 10, 2004)

Ed O said:


> It's inefficient to ask an entire community a question that a 10 second google search would answer.
> 
> This is the reason that FAQs were invented. We'll just have to make a FAQ and put stuff about Shakespear in there, I guess.
> 
> Ed O.


Well I was really only asking for one person to respond, most likely the thread creator, so I wasn't really asking for a _whole community _ of input. I guess the title was so off topic that I didn't understand that Miles and Shakespeare were somehow related. I've never had to Google any other thread titles from this board, nor any of the information from within posts as I am pretty generally informed.

Should I have read Hamlet growing up? Probably. Maybe next time I'll make an obscure reference to "One Hundred Years of Solitude" or "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman" and see how many people catch the quote.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

The light bulb above Ed's head is actually a swarm of nanobots. That's how he knows everything. 

Although they tend to make you loath the redundant inefficiency of interpersonal information gathering, at least they make you appreciate that Rasheed Wallace and Bob Whitsitt were actually pretty good for the franchise. So there's that. 

I for one welcome our new nanobot overlords.


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## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

nikolokolus said:


> http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-33-34/Darius-Miles-and-that-Drug-Test.html
> 
> Henry Abott of Truehoop weighs in with a completely different take on the Miles 10 day suspension ...


The Blazers did not buy Darius out, but claimed career ending injury. Unless they are fools at managing money, why would they pay him off early? He will be collecting a check for the next several years as was in his contract. He may collect an additional check as well (from another team), but either way he is still subject to NBA rules and the terms of the CBA for as long as he is under contract. Just because the Blazers don't want his salary to count under the cap does not mean that all right (for both parties) under the contract are terminated.

My guess is there is a complicated termination section in the CBA that covers which terms of the CBA remain in force under such situations (medical inability, and waiver of players).


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

mook said:


> 10010000001111001011011110111010100100000011001000110100100100111011010010110111000100111


Have you ever seen the movie _Pi_? I'm watching it right now. Pretty wild stuff.


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

Ed O said:


> It's inefficient to ask an entire community a question that a 10 second google search would answer.
> 
> This is the reason that FAQs were invented. We'll just have to make a FAQ and put stuff about Shakespear in there, I guess.
> 
> Ed O.


Basketball message boards are efficient??

Could have fooled me.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

ABM said:


> Have you ever seen the movie _Pi_? I'm watching it right now. Pretty wild stuff.


I'm craving some Coconut Creme Pie.


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## DonCorleone (Jul 1, 2005)

Perfection said:


> Should I have read Hamlet growing up? Probably. Maybe next time I'll make an obscure reference to "One Hundred Years of Solitude" or "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman" and see how many people catch the quote.


It isn't really that obscure. It is a pretty common phrase that I am sure many people, including myself, have seen used several times. I had forgotten it originated from Shakespeare. However, I do know there are many fairly common phrases that come from Shakespeare, such as "a foregone conclusion," "all's well that ends well," "in the twinkling of an eye," "pound of flesh," "too much of a good thing," etc.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

"Oh that this too too solid flesh would melt." - Sergio Rodriguez taking a jump shot. 

"This above all else, to thine own self be true. **** everyone else." - Rasheed Wallace

"To be, or not to be: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them with overeating, loose women, coke and booze." - Shawn Kemp

"Alas, poor Randolph! I knew him, Pritchard, a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy. He hath bore our team on his back many times. But the three way thing with the hooker and his best friend was just too much." - Nate McMillan

"There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. Shawn Kemp at 300 pounds, though, is something of a career gamble." - Bob Whitsitt

All from Hamlet. The Bard could've taken Jason Quick's job without even trying.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

"It was the best of times. It was the worst of times". - Mike Rice describing a fast break handled by Sergio, ending with Sergio taking an uncontested shot. 

... and then came Batum.


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

from ESPN.com



> Suns Examine Miles
> Darius Miles | Trail Blazers
> The Suns' medical staff examined forward Darius Miles, a long shot to be signed, on Wednesday. Miles missed the past two seasons because of a right-knee injury. According to the Oregonian, Miles has a 10-game suspension pending for an anti-drug program violation. -- The Arizona Republic


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

On the update front:



> Ainge won’t make major moves during the offseason. He would like to re-sign Posey, a free agent, and took a recent look at ex-Blazer Darius Miles, as did both Phoenix and New Jersey.
> 
> “Darius’ talent is there, and *his health is better than we were led to believe*,” Ainge says. “We’re going to continue to explore that and some other options.


http://www.portlandtribune.com/sports/story.php?story_id=121604726622042200


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