# Zach/Roy double standard



## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

Maybe someone can help me understand this. Zach drops some coin (although not enough) at a strip club on his way to the airport and it makes headlines and multiple threads.

Brandon "Golden Child" Roy, gets a girl that he is not married to pregnant, and continues to refuse to commit to her (even though he was committed enough to have sex with her and get her pregnant), and it's all "Congratulations Brandon".

Am I missing something here? Dropping some coin in a strip club seems like a mild issue compared to creating a single mom. And don't tell me that is not what Brandon did, because if he was committed to her and the son they created, then he could go all the way and marry her.

I must say that this whole thing has left me rather disappointed in Brandon.


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## Yega1979 (Mar 22, 2003)

That mom won't likely want for much with the child support checks she'll be getting. Irresponsible on Brandon's part, but Zach seems to have lied to the team just to get out of playing. Going to a stip club is not bad, just that he was on supposed "berevement leave".


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

You do have a point, sir.

However, in the black community having out-of-wedlock children is nothing unusual. About 70% of all black children are born illegitimate. So Brandon's behavior is pretty normal in his world, though it is far from ideal.



> Childbearing out-of-wedlock and absence of fathers varies greatly between racial/ethnic groups.The highest rate was non-Hispanic Blacks, among whom *69.4 percent of births were out-of-wedlock.*


http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1446


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

You know, Talkhard, I normally pay you little attention, but if it were up to me, I'd ban you for posting that kind of racist crud.


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## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

Talkhard said:


> You do have a point, sir.
> 
> However, in the black community having out-of-wedlock children is nothing unusual. If I'm not mistaken, about 70% of all black children are illigitimate. So while Brandon's behavior fits right in among the home boys, and probably doesn't raise an eyebrow in his world, it is still objectionable to many people.


I had thought of that, but you could also argue that smoking pot and being around/involved in street shootings are similar racial stereotypes. 

I still think Roy is going to get off too easy on this and Zach is going to continue to be seen as the bad guy (not that I wouldn't mind seeing Zach go for purely basketball reasons).


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## Baracuda (Jan 10, 2007)

Reep said:


> Maybe someone can help me understand this. Zach drops some coin (although not enough) at a strip club on his way to the airport and it makes headlines and multiple threads.
> 
> Brandon "Golden Child" Roy, gets a girl that he is not married to pregnant, and continues to refuse to commit to her (even though he was committed enough to have sex with her and get her pregnant), and it's all "Congratulations Brandon".
> 
> ...


We should have dumped Roy at the trade deadline when we had the chance, he's gonna bring this whole franchise down.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

e_blazer1 said:


> You know, Talkhard, I normally pay you little attention, but if it were up to me, I'd ban you for posting that kind of racist crud.


That's right, I forgot. You can't tell the truth when it's politically incorrect. My bad.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

roy got his girlfriend pregnant. what a terrible person.

and he obviously cares enough about the kid to have missed a game to go be there for his(?) birth.

i don't see how there is anything wrong with this.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Of course there is no difference between having consenting sex with a fellow adult and paying a stripper to open up and let you and your friends run a train on her.

Roy isn't helping the economy. Shame on him


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

i'm continually confused about americans' obsession with celebrities' personal activities.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

BuckW4GM said:


> i'm continually confused about americans' obsession with celebrities' personal activities.


What "confuses" you exactly?


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## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

Baracuda said:


> We should have dumped Roy at the trade deadline when we had the chance, he's gonna bring this whole franchise down.


Good job with the exaggeration and avoiding the real issue. 

I'm just wondering why:

VERY BAD: strip clubs, pot, street racing at night

NO BIG DEAL: empregnating a girl that is not your wife

Strip clubs, pot and street racing are very short term activites, so far, without any long term consequences. Creating a single mom changes at least two people's (not including Bradon Sr.) lives for several decades, potentially generations.

I think there are a lot of things that are wrong with society, but sometimes I think we put an overemphasis on the little things, and ignore the actions that have long term effects.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

rocketeer said:


> roy got his girlfriend pregnant. what a terrible person.
> 
> and he obviously cares enough about the kid to have missed a game to go be there for his(?) birth.
> 
> i don't see how there is anything wrong with this.


No one is saying there is anything wrong with him missing a game. What people ARE saying is that it would be better if he would marry the mother of his child.


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## Mr. Chuck Taylor (Aug 2, 2004)

Reep said:


> Maybe someone can help me understand this. Zach drops some coin (although not enough) at a strip club on his way to the airport and it makes headlines and multiple threads.
> 
> Brandon "Golden Child" Roy, gets a girl that he is not married to pregnant, and continues to refuse to commit to her (even though he was committed enough to have sex with her and get her pregnant), and it's all "Congratulations Brandon".
> 
> ...


First off, I'm pretty sure that Brandon wasn't the only person resoponsible for the baby - I have a feeling the Mom was involved, too. Secondly, unless you have insight into this relationship, you can't say Brandon is doing anything wrong by not marrying her. Maybe she won't marry him, or that they don't believe in traditional marriage, or they don't think theyre ready yet, or they decided to have a baby and not be married, or they're simply not right for each other, etc. Even if they did make a mistake in getting pregnant, should they compound it by getting married when they don't want to? I don't think so.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

Talkhard said:


> What "confuses" you exactly?


exactly as i said. an example would be the anna smith's story playing all over. i mean, really, isn't there a lot more important news to report? i guess i'm used to idea of being entertained by celebrities for what they're paid to provide. other than that, i don't care to be entertained by their other activities, especially their very personal activities.


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## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> Of course there is no difference between having consenting sex with a fellow adult and paying a stripper to open up and let you and your friends run a train on her.
> 
> Roy isn't helping the economy. Shame on him


In 10-20 years, which of those acts will still an issue? I doubt that the strippers life will be changed much by that one event (assuming she does not become pregnant). Can you say the same about Brandon's girlfriend and son? If he commits to them in some sort of common law marriage way, then maybe not. But, if he decides child support is enough and heads off for greener pastures at some point down the road, then the long term effects will be real. 

I'm not trying to be a prude here saying that what Brandon did was purely wrong. My point is that I don't think Brandon should get off easily, given the flack that Zach has been getting from many on this board.


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## Verro (Jul 4, 2005)

You might love someone enough to share your life with them and have a child. But splitting a max contract when you eventually get divorced is a whole other level of commitment.

Over 50% of all marriages end in divorce, I imagine that number goes way way up, when you're only 22. He's not being irresponsible he's being smart.


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## Mr. Chuck Taylor (Aug 2, 2004)

Reep said:


> In 10-20 years, which of those acts will still an issue? I doubt that the strippers life will be changed much by that one event (assuming she does not become pregnant). Can you say the same about Brandon's girlfriend and son? If he commits to them in some sort of common law marriage way, then maybe not. But, if he decides child support is enough and heads off for greener pastures at some point down the road, then the long term effects will be real.
> 
> I'm not trying to be a prude here saying that what Brandon did was purely wrong. My point is that I don't think Brandon should get off easily, given the flack that Zach has been getting from many on this board.


If Brandon shouldn't get off so easily, then what do you want us to do about it? From a basketball standpoint, the only thing that matters here is that Brandon was excused to see the birth of his child, and he did so.


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## craigehlo (Feb 24, 2005)

I actually know a lot of people with children in committed relationships that, GET THIS WILD IDEA, aren't married. They are great parents that are raising some amazing kids. 

I also know some married couples that are pretty bad parents. 

Seems like you are assuming that BRoy isn't going to a part of this kids life. I'm just guessing from his solid character and that fact he named his newborn Brandon Jr, he's going to be very involved.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

BuckW4GM said:


> i'm continually confused about americans' obsession with celebrities' personal activities.


Truth.

Ed O.


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## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

Mr. Chuck Taylor said:


> First off, I'm pretty sure that Brandon wasn't the only person resoponsible for the baby - I have a feeling the Mom was involved, too. Secondly, unless you have insight into this relationship, you can't say Brandon is doing anything wrong by not marrying her. Maybe she won't marry him, or that they don't believe in traditional marriage, or they don't think theyre ready yet, or they decided to have a baby and not be married, or they're simply not right for each other, etc. Even if they did make a mistake in getting pregnant, should they compound it by getting married when they don't want to? I don't think so.


I don't disagree with your premise, but maybe he/they should have thought of that before they . . . indulged? There are always excuses for not getting married, but the result is the same--a single mom. As someone who was raised by a single mom, I don't think it is the best way to grow up. 

The bottom line again is that the long term results of Zach's indescretions are negligable. The result of Brandon's are an unwed mother and a son, who will not grow up with a father that is committed to his mother. 

I don't want to through Brandon in with the Jail Blazers, but I think we need to put Zach's troubles in perspective.


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## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

craigehlo said:


> I actually know a lot of people with children in committed relationships that, GET THIS WILD IDEA, aren't married. They are great parents that are raising some amazing kids.
> 
> I also know some married couples that are pretty bad parents.
> 
> Seems like you are assuming that BRoy isn't going to a part of this kids life. I'm just guessing from his solid character and that fact he named his newborn Brandon Jr, he's going to be very involved.


News reports say the name was selected by his girlfriend, not him. You may be right about Brandon being a relatively good, if uncommitted, father. But, you are giving Brandon the benefit of the doubt--something Zach rarely benefits from.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

Reep said:


> Maybe someone can help me understand this. Zach drops some coin (although not enough) at a strip club on his way to the airport and it makes headlines and multiple threads.
> 
> Brandon "Golden Child" Roy, gets a girl that he is not married to pregnant, and continues to refuse to commit to her (even though he was committed enough to have sex with her and get her pregnant), and it's all "Congratulations Brandon".
> 
> ...


Are you guys seriious? He had a child and he is thrilled to be the father..maybe they will get married in the future...The only thing that matters is he is going to be a great dad to his son. I'm sure some of you think it's so horrible to live with your significant other while not being married too...geez people..grow up.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

Talkhard said:


> You do have a point, sir.
> 
> However, in the black community having out-of-wedlock children is nothing unusual. About 70% of all black children are born illegitimate. So Brandon's behavior is pretty normal in his world, though it is far from ideal.
> http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=1446


Tom Brady is BLACK?

Who knew?

As far as double standards, they stop at the top with this team.

Grieving Zach leaves club - forgets to pat $106 tab.

Billionaire Paul gives back Rose Quarter - refuses to pay $100 million plus he owes various investors and Portland businesses.


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## craigehlo (Feb 24, 2005)

Reep said:


> I If he commits to them in some sort of common law marriage way, then maybe not. But, if he decides child support is enough and heads off for greener pastures at some point down the road, then the long term effects will be real.


This may come as a shock, but people are allowed to get divorced if they are married and "leave for greener pastures" too.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

The bottom line is this. Having a child out of wedlock isn't a character flaw, while many of Zack's actions (and I'm not talking at all about the recent visit to the strip club) demonstrate significant character flaws.

Now, if Roy becomes an uninvolved father then you folks might have a point about his character, but until then, you are posting to see your avatar.


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## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

MAS RipCity said:


> Are you guys seriious? He had a child and he is thrilled to be the father..maybe they will get married in the future...The only thing that matters is he is going to be a great dad to his son. I'm sure some of you think it's so horrible to live with your significant other while not being married too...geez people..grow up.


Okay, I will continue to state this until it gets through:

Is there a double standard between Zach and Brandon. We can make all the forecasts we want about Brandon being an involved dad, but there is now way to know this. If it were Zach in the same exact situation (which I believe he is already in) then the Shawn Kemp comparisons would come out. But not with BRoy--no, he would never do that--until the next time.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Reep said:


> News reports say the name was selected by his girlfriend, not him. You may be right about Brandon being a relatively good, if uncommitted, father. But, you are giving Brandon the benefit of the doubt--something Zach rarely benefits from.


Zach isn't a rookie and has demonstrate on multiple occasions that he doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt.

Save this thread and come back to it in 3 seasons and we'll have a better idea of Roy's character.


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## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

I read somewhere (I forgot where, so I can't post a link) that Brandon has been together with his girlfriend for 7 years now, and they are planning on getting married. 

While PERSONALLY, I would prefer that they had gotten married before having a baby, its not like this was some irresponsible fling on a road trip. He is NOT pulling a Shawn Kemp.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> The bottom line is this. Having a child out of wedlock isn't a character flaw, while many of Zack's actions (and I'm not talking at all about the recent visit to the strip club) demonstrate significant character flaws.
> 
> Now, if Roy becomes an uninvolved father then you folks might have a point about his character, but until then, you are posting to see your avatar.


Exactly, it all depends on what kind of dad brandon turns out to be,not whether he was married when he did the deed.


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## craigehlo (Feb 24, 2005)

cpawfan said:


> The bottom line is this. Having a child out of wedlock isn't a character flaw, while many of Zack's actions (and I'm not talking at all about the recent visit to the strip club) demonstrate significant character flaws.


Amen.

Also left off the list of his misdeeds was breaking Reuben Patterson face in practice, being accused of rape this summer and not giving a truthful first statement to police in his brother's murder investigation. I count those higher on the list of character flaws than showing up at the strip club and street racing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zach_Randolph


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

Nearly 4 in 10 babies in America are now being born out of wedlock, so it's not like what Roy is doing is all that aberrant. (See? I didn't have to even include race to make the same point, Talkhard.)

On the other hand, 70% of men between 18 and 24 visit porn internet sites, so Zach eyeballing some naked hot mamas ain't exactly extraordinary either. That he did it on the way to a funeral (and instead of working) does tend to raise some eyebrows.


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## Baracuda (Jan 10, 2007)

Reep said:


> Good job with the exaggeration and avoiding the real issue.


My point is that there is no issue. 

Zach has a pattern of questionable behavior. Brandon got his girlfriend pregnant, is still with her, and involved in his girlfriend's and newborn son's life. You reep what you sow, and Brandon is taking care of his family just fine. Zach will be under a microscope for the rest of his time as a Blazer and it is his own fault.

I think Zach having a few drinks before he hops on a red eye is not an issue. Brandon doesn't have to marry his girl to be a good person. As you know Brandon has had a very busy year maybe he does has plans to marry his baby momma.

Lighten up bro!


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

i don't know why some of you are taking issues with TalkHard's first reply in this thread, other than you might not agree with the accuracy of the number he provided. is it wrong to be pointing out facts now?


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## Mr. Chuck Taylor (Aug 2, 2004)

Reep said:


> I don't disagree with your premise, but maybe he/they should have thought of that before they . . . indulged? There are always excuses for not getting married, but the result is the same--a single mom. As someone who was raised by a single mom, I don't think it is the best way to grow up.
> 
> The bottom line again is that the long term results of Zach's indescretions are negligable. The result of Brandon's are an unwed mother and a son, who will not grow up with a father that is committed to his mother.
> 
> I don't want to through Brandon in with the Jail Blazers, but I think we need to put Zach's troubles in perspective.


Just because they are not wed, doesn't mean this boy will grow up without a father. He has every chance to grow up with a good one. By the way - she is his girlfriend, for all we know they are planning on getting married.

You're really opening pandora's box here. Should we start evaluating other nba player's parenting skills, because I'm sure we could find some married men who are bad fathers. Where does it end?


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## Mr. Chuck Taylor (Aug 2, 2004)

Reep said:


> Okay, I will continue to state this until it gets through:
> 
> Is there a double standard between Zach and Brandon. We can make all the forecasts we want about Brandon being an involved dad, but there is now way to know this. If it were Zach in the same exact situation (which I believe he is already in) then the Shawn Kemp comparisons would come out. But not with BRoy--no, he would never do that--until the next time.


There's no way to know he WON'T be an involved Dad. Is it just me or is this starting to sound like the movie Minority Report?


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## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> Save this thread and come back to it in 3 seasons and we'll have a better idea of Roy's character.


True. This is really the only way we will know.

I concede that I am in a minority on this board regarding marriage and having children. But I ask you to really think about the long term consequences of what Zach has done v. what Brandon is doing. 

As a child, I would have rather had a dad who was married to my mom, and was part of our family, than have one who was still around, but just as my Mom's boyfried.


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## yuyuza1 (May 24, 2006)

> Roy said he was brought up by his parents to give respect immediately, instead of waiting for people to earn it...
> 
> He hopes to pass that on to his first child, whom he and his girlfriend of seven years, Tiana Bardwell, are expecting in the first week of April. He met Bardwell his sophomore year in high school and is making plans to marry her.


Quick's season preview


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Reep said:


> Is there a double standard between Zach and Brandon.


No, there is not, and you yourself proved it two sentences later.




Reep said:


> We can make all the forecasts we want about Brandon being an involved dad, but there is now way to know this.


Neither can we assume he won't be a great dad. We also don't know that he won't marry his girlfriend. Who knows. He's been very busy for the last nine months - starting with the draft last June (BTW, anybody else notice the baby was born almost exactly 9 months after draft night - a little draft night celebrating going on there perhaps), Brandon played in the summer league, then training camp and then the regular season. Who knows, they may just be waiting until the off season when Brandon will have the time to help plan and have a wedding. The point is we don't know and to assume ANYTHING is wrong, and it is especially wrong to automatically assume the worst - that he'll be a deadbeat dad and uninvolved in raising his child. There is nothing in Brandon Roy's past, or his character that would indicate he won't be a loving, involved parent.



Reep said:


> If it were Zach in the same exact situation (which I believe he is already in) then the Shawn Kemp comparisons would come out. But not with BRoy--no, he would never do that--until the next time.


Exactly! Zach has also fathered a child with his girlfriend - and they are not married. Of all the things he's done off the court, that's the one thing I haven't seen him beat up about on this board, or in the local media who likes to find fault with everything he does. And no, I haven't heard a single Shawn Kemp comparison due to Zach fathering a child out of wedlock. I see absolutely no double standard here. Zach does get taken to task for the stupid things he does - fathering a baby with his girlfriend isn't one of them.

BNM


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## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

I don't ususally agree with craigehlo on a lot of things but he sure got it right here.

Why don't people just mind their own business, concentrate on their children, their careers, their neighbors, their lives? And stop assuming the worst about a person whom you don't know based on no evidence?

I have no double standard. I did not doubt that Zach was really attending a funeral. Killing time in a strip club may "look bad" (and frankly I never could see the thrill) but is no crime. Neither is consensual sex between adults. 

So far as I can tell Brandon Roy is doing a very good job of managing his personal life. He has a good career with damn near unlimited growth potential and a terrific salary, he is in a long term relationship, has a healthy child, and by all accounts is a fine, law-abiding, tax-paying young man. 

Isn't there a war going on somewhere in Iraq? Isn't there a genocide in Darfur? If you are really concerned about the state of the world, worrying about the healthy child of a well-to-do young couple is not the best place to start.


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## blakeback (Jun 29, 2006)

holy crap, why hasn't this thread been locked yet?


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Quick said:


> He hopes to pass that on to his first child, whom he and his girlfriend of seven years, Tiana Bardwell, are expecting in the first week of April. He met Bardwell his sophomore year in high school and is making plans to marry her.


Thanks for posting that. Hopefully, it will end this thread. Girlfriend of *7 years*! That sounds like a pretty committed relationship for a 22-year old male. Making plans to marry her - so much for being a non-involved dad.

Seriously, this whole thread was way out of line. It was based entirely on worst-case expectations - that Roy wouldn't be a loving, involved parent - without a hint of evidence to support those expectations. Brandon Roy is a fine young man and he'll make a great father.

And, so I'll end on a more appropriate note:

Congratulations Brandon and Tiana on the birth of your son Brandon Jr. I hope mother, baby and father are all doing fine.

BNM


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## shyFX325 (Jul 28, 2002)

Reep said:


> Maybe someone can help me understand this. Zach drops some coin (although not enough) at a strip club on his way to the airport and it makes headlines and multiple threads.
> 
> Brandon "Golden Child" Roy, gets a girl that he is not married to pregnant, and continues to refuse to commit to her (even though he was committed enough to have sex with her and get her pregnant), and it's all "Congratulations Brandon".


ummmm... 1986 called... they want their logic back


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

mook said:


> On the other hand, 70% of men between 18 and 24 visit porn internet sites


I find it very hard to believe that among men 18 to 24 years old, 30% have no internet access. 

barfo


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

shyFX325 said:


> ummmm... 1986 called... they want their logic back


Actually, more like 1956.

BNM


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## BIG Q (Jul 8, 2005)

mook said:


> Nearly 4 in 10 babies in America are now being born out of wedlock, so it's not like what Roy is doing is all that aberrant. (*See? I didn't have to even include race to make the same point, Talkhard.)*
> 
> On the other hand, 70% of men between 18 and 24 visit porn internet sites, so Zach eyeballing some naked hot mamas ain't exactly extraordinary either. That he did it on the way to a funeral (and instead of working) does tend to raise some eyebrows.


But your arguement is far weaker than Talkhard's. To me, 70% is far more eye popping than a paltry 40%. And to get to the 40% you have to take into account a huge number of non black pregnancies to "water down" the numbers of the 70% to even get to the 40%. But as Talkhard said, "you can't tell the truth when it is politically correct." Hell, even Bill Cosby knows that.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

I agree that had this been Zach, a lot of people would have used this as more 'evidence' that he's a thug/punk/piece of ****/loser/must be traded. But since it's Brandon, it's okay.

I don't care who it is, it's simply not a big deal. He's clearly still with the girl and intends to raise the child with her, who cares if they're married or not? Stay the **** out of the man's business.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Fork said:


> I agree that had this been Zach, a lot of people would have used this as more 'evidence' that he's a thug/punk/piece of ****/loser/must be traded. But since it's Brandon, it's okay.
> 
> I don't care who it is, it's simply not a big deal. He's clearly still with the girl and intends to raise the child with her, who cares if they're married or not? Stay the **** out of the man's business.




Doesn't Zach have a little girl with his girlfriend? I don't think it's ever been brought up as a bad thing.


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

This is the most ridiculous thread thats been on this board in awhile.

He's been with the girl for 7 years, sounds like a stable relationship to me. I read some where that she doesnt live with him here in Portland only because Brandon wants her to be with their family's for support while she's prego, and Brandon drives up to visit her all the time, he left the All Star stuff in Vegas early to spend time with her. Roy was a student at UofW for 4 years, probably didnt have much cash for a nice wedding. As soon as his senior year is over, he's flying around the country for various draft workouts... not much time to fit in a wedding / honeymoon. Gets drafted, now has the $$$ for a nice wedding, but he's busy busting his butt getting ready for his rookie of the year winning season. 2006/07 season is over, he finally has some down time and the money for he and his girlfriend to have the wedding they dream of. 

What really does being officially married matter anyway? I have friends who are not married who have been together longer than my wife and I have. They act just as much "married" as other married couples.


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

mediocre man said:


> Doesn't Zach have a little girl with his girlfriend? I don't think it's ever been brought up as a bad thing.


Thank you! :clap: 

Pictures of Zach and his daughter are on his player page on the Trail Blazer website.


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## wizmentor (Nov 10, 2005)

Fork said:


> I agree that had this been Zach, a lot of people would have used this as more 'evidence' that he's a thug/punk/piece of ****/loser/must be traded. But since it's Brandon, it's okay.
> 
> I don't care who it is, it's simply not a big deal. He's clearly still with the girl and intends to raise the child with her, who cares if they're married or not? Stay the **** out of the man's business.


I've read the whole thread. But the thing that most everyone
is ignoring is that the Blazers are celebrating this event.
I am not condemning Brandon at all. But having a child out
of wedlock is not something to be proud of. If he's been
with this girl for 7 years, then he's had plenty of time
to figure things out. She got pregnant in July, they probably
found out about it in August. They could have been married
before the season, if desired.

Regardless, to me the issue is "did Brandon betray anyone?"
I don't think he did, so I don't have a problem with it.
However, _it is not something to celebrate_, which
Barrett has been both at the game and in his Blog.


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

Read Brandon's blog:

Portland Trail Blazers: Official Trail Blazers Rookie Blog


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

mediocre man said:


> Doesn't Zach have a little girl with his girlfriend? I don't think it's ever been brought up as a bad thing.


Yeah, and she's 4 years old or something.

Zach was a lot more popular when she was born. If it had happened now, I think more people would have had a problem with it.


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

wizmentor said:


> the Blazers are celebrating this event.
> .


How do you figure that? I havent seen any "Brandon's Baby Party" or anything of that nature on the website etc.

Regardless of which player it is, the team would congratulate the birth of a players child. It's a very special event.


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

BuckW4GM said:


> i don't know why some of you are taking issues with TalkHard's first reply in this thread, other than you might not agree with the accuracy of the number he provided. is it wrong to be pointing out facts now?


Had Talkhard's first post originally read the way it does now, I wouldn't have said anything. He edited it (without noting that he did, by the way) to add a link supporting the statistics he talked about in his original post. He also deleted the comments he originally made about Brandon's actions being typical of his "homies" in the black community. It was those comments, not the statistics, that were racist in tone.

In the future, I would hope that he does his editing to remove such crud before he hits the "Submit Reply" button instead of after.


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## wizmentor (Nov 10, 2005)

B_&_B said:


> How do you figure that? I havent seen any "Brandon's Baby Party" or anything of that nature on the website etc.
> 
> Regardless of which player it is, the team would congratulate the birth of a players child. It's a very special event.


Again, Barrett says congratulations several times during
the broadcast, and mentions it during his blog.

Silly, but sincere question (and this will probably get this
thread locked: Why does the term B****** carry negative
connotation if it's something we should be congratulating
and celebrating? In fact, it's so negative that the filters
filter it out.


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## Ukrainefan (Aug 1, 2003)

I don't really give a hoot as far as the character of our players _except_ when it affects the success of the team. Brandon went to attend the birth of his son, a perfectly good reason to miss a game, and I am sure his teammates don't feel "let down". With Zach, there was at least the appearance that he was letting his teammates down by taking bereavement timeoff when he appeared to not be overly bereaved.

Also Zach's pattern of behavior constantly puts him at risk of physical injury or incarceration; this is behavior that threatens the success of the team since it could lead to his permanent absence; well, it at least would be upsetting to his teammates to lose him suddenly, so it shows a disregard for his teammates.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Fork said:


> Yeah, and she's 4 years old or something.
> 
> Zach was a lot more popular when she was born. If it had happened now, I think more people would have had a problem with it.




I hate Zach more than anyone on this board, and I know I wouldn't care.


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

wizmentor said:


> Again, Barrett says congratulations several times during
> the broadcast, and mentions it during his blog.
> 
> Silly, but sincere question (and this will probably get this
> ...


You consider that "celebrating"?

If and when someone on this board posts that their wife/girlfriend had a child, there are MANY replys saying "congratulations".


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## stockfire (Jul 17, 2004)

wizmentor said:


> Again, Barrett says congratulations several times during
> the broadcast, and mentions it during his blog.
> 
> Silly, but sincere question (and this will probably get this
> ...


So, the reason something is bad is because we say its bad? Not quite logical.


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## NateBishop3 (Jul 22, 2003)

I think the Op's point of view has been pretty convincingly shot down, but I would also like to point out that marriage is a contract that we enter into before God. Even though it is a common act that we pretty much all partake in, despite being religious or not, it still involves religion. 

With that said, if someone were an atheist or for some reason did not believe in marriage, that would be their right and I would have no problem with it. Freedom of religion, I'm pretty sure I've read that somewhere. It is wrong for you or anyone else to force their beliefs on another person.


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## blakeback (Jun 29, 2006)

mook said:


> On the other hand, 70% of men between 18 and 24 visit porn internet sites


ha ha, "on the other hand" ... I get it


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## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

NateBishop3 said:


> I think the Op's point of view has been pretty convincingly shot down, but I would also like to point out that marriage is a contract that we enter into before God. Even though it is a common act that we pretty much all partake in, despite being religious or not, it still involves religion.
> 
> With that said, if someone were an atheist or for some reason did not believe in marriage, that would be their right and I would have no problem with it. Freedom of religion, I'm pretty sure I've read that somewhere. It is wrong for you or anyone else to force their beliefs on another person.


Plenty of atheists get married, Nate (using secular vows) and plenty of religious people have nonmarital or common law relationships. Doesn't fit.

A LOT of people get married after a child is here or at least pending. Hell, Shaq and his wife had 3 kids before they made it legal. As long as they are all consenting adults and the children are cared for, it is again no one else's beeswax.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

Talkhard said:


> That's right, I forgot. You can't tell the truth when it's politically incorrect. My bad.


Right because "catholicculture.org" isn't a biased sourced of information at all. :lol:


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## ColoradoBlazerFan (Feb 16, 2006)

Well, if anything this thread has served a reminder that:

a) some people are fricken ignorant as hell...if you think you might be included in this group, you probably are

b) The U.S. (best country in the world) is still so socially conservative and backward in their thinking about marriage

More than 50% of births in some European countries (Norway for instance)are out of wedlock. There is an entire culture shift going on there for a couple of reasons. One being the tax situation is prohibative in some countries to be married. Two, this idea that if the state doesn't officialy recognize your marriage, it can't be real is being thought of for what it is....a tradition born of religious tradition and a commonly state sactioned category you get to fall into with some legal protections regarding health and monies. 

If someone lives their lives independent of certain religious tradition and does not see a benefit for the state to recognize the relationship..why not! Unless some people feel the need to judge others and correct them so said judge can feel better about oneself. If that's the case.....sorry for you. 

So.....CONGRADULATIONS BRANDON!

Peace


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## AudieNorris (Jun 29, 2006)

The timing is what I think tells the story. The baby was conceived sometime last June. This would coincide with the draft. My GUESS is that they celebrated with some nookie and something happened. Maybe a condom broke. Maybe they tipped a few to celebrate and forgot. Maybe an anomaly. Who cares? Things happen. Brandon has stepped up to the plate and doesn't look like he will back down. Sure wish my dad who was married to my mom for 37 years was like that.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

I don't think we should spend a lot of time sitting in judgment of the personal lives of the local basketball team, but I completely agree with Reep that a double standard exists. The strip club incident proves it, because the whole board went bananas over a whole pile of nothing, just because it was Zach. Some people are so eager to condemn him that they are willing to play up even the most insignificant event if it means they can bash Zach. May none of you ever become famous.


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## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

The whole board did not go bananas, Ghost. First, it was initially reported in such a way as to imply that Zach was at a strip club while claiming he was at a funeral. That was not true. But some were eager to believe it, generally the same ones who questioned whether there was a bereavement, when they found out there was questioned the character of the dead man, when they found out he was the one trying to break up the fight, questioned whether he was a close enough relation for Zach to go to the funeral, when they found out he was, simply reverted to calling Zach a thug.

In other words, there are some on the board who started with a preconceived notion and tried real hard to make the facts fit. Some are doing the same to Brandon (he "got a girl pregnant" sounds like he picked out some 15 year old fan from the sidelines, not like he had a child with a young woman - not a girl - with whom he's had a long term relationship). 

It's not the whole board. It's a handful of people with an agenda and if the facts don't fit the agenda they make up facts.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

dudleysghost said:


> I don't think we should spend a lot of time sitting in judgment of the personal lives of the local basketball team, but I completely agree with Reep that a double standard exists. The strip club incident proves it, because the whole board went bananas over a whole pile of nothing, just because it was Zach. Some people are so eager to condemn him that they are willing to play up even the most insignificant event if it means they can bash Zach. May none of you ever become famous.



The strip club was only part of the story. He should have been supporting his teammates at the game if he was in town....HE IS A CAPTAIN FOR SOME REASON. Also should be noted that Dwight Jaynes had a brilliant column in the Trib this morning about Zach. Showing that the story about Zach just killing time before his flight doesn't really match the flight times to Indiana. The last flight leaving was at 11:04 and Zach was said to be killing time at the strip club at 11:30. It's a classic article. Randolph keeps the grief coming


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

crandc said:


> The whole board did not go bananas, Ghost. First, it was initially reported in such a way as to imply that Zach was at a strip club while claiming he was at a funeral. That was not true. But some were eager to believe it, generally the same ones who questioned whether there was a bereavement, when they found out there was questioned the character of the dead man, when they found out he was the one trying to break up the fight, questioned whether he was a close enough relation for Zach to go to the funeral, when they found out he was, simply reverted to calling Zach a thug.
> 
> In other words, there are some on the board who started with a preconceived notion and tried real hard to make the facts fit. Some are doing the same to Brandon (he "got a girl pregnant" sounds like he picked out some 15 year old fan from the sidelines, not like he had a child with a young woman - not a girl - with whom he's had a long term relationship).
> 
> It's not the whole board. It's a handful of people with an agenda and if the facts don't fit the agenda they make up facts.


Ok, I was painting with an overly wide banana-colored brush, but I think the point stands. A double standard exists for Zach, and even if he does nothing people will continue to find a way to condemn him for it.

As for Brandon, I don't see Reep starting with any preconceived notion. I don't know if that's who you were referring to, but I'm assuming it is. He didn't say or even imply that the "girl" was underage or someone to whom Roy was not well acquainted. All he said was "a girl that he is not married to", which is true. It seems Reep was simply making a value judgment about creating children within a marriage being better than outside of one, which is a pretty arguable and understandable perspective. I didn't see him ever say that Brandon won't be a good dad. In fact, he explicitly concedes that he might (see post #16, that doesn't sound like someone with a preconceived notion to me...), but stands by his implicit position that being married first is the best way and his stated position that the event does draw an interesting juxtaposition with what Zach supposedly did wrong by going to a strip club.

And myself, I'm perfectly willing to give Roy the benefit of the doubt, but I would have some qualms about having a child out of wedlock while I would have none about going to a strip club (other than the ridiculous expense and unsatisfied feeling that it leaves you with). I think it's puritanical to expect basketball players to conform my personal beliefs in their personal lives in any case, but if we were going to do so, and in the case of Zach that seems to be true, then I can see Reep's point. The data about single parenthood having poorer outcomes than two parent households is pretty clear, and the fact that many people do it alone anyways doesn't change that. I know that life doesn't always go as planned or work out in an ideal way, so I don't go around condemning people for how they live their personal lives, but when you juxtapose creating a child out of wedlock with Zach going to a strip club, it is interesting.


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## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

mediocre man said:


> The strip club was only part of the story. He should have been supporting his teammates at the game if he was in town....HE IS A CAPTAIN FOR SOME REASON. Also should be noted that Dwight Jaynes had a brilliant column in the Trib this morning about Zach. Showing that the story about Zach just killing time before his flight doesn't really match the flight times to Indiana. The last flight leaving was at 11:04 and Zach was said to be killing time at the strip club at 11:30. It's a classic article. Randolph keeps the grief coming


Man, you're going to sprain a muscle if you keep reaching like that. Zach was upset so he was granted bereavement leave. Maybe you and others here don't like how he grieves, but it's his life. Do you really expect us to believe that you care if Zach was on the bench for the game? Yeah right.

And as you and Jaynes are probably aware, not all connecting flights even go in the direction of their final destination. Both Portland and Indianapolis have relatively small airports, meaning that the connection will likely be at any of the main national hubs, only one of which (CHI O'Hare) is in the midwest. He could have flown through SFO, LAX, Phoenix, DFW, ATL, Newark or SeaTac. Were you really not aware of that?


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

Reep said:


> Okay, I will continue to state this until it gets through:
> 
> Is there a double standard between Zach and Brandon. We can make all the forecasts we want about Brandon being an involved dad, but there is now way to know this. If it were Zach in the same exact situation (which I believe he is already in) then the Shawn Kemp comparisons would come out. But not with BRoy--no, he would never do that--until the next time.



Don't waste your breath. The angry hypocrites who have taken over this forum will never see themselves for what they are. The kindest thing you can say is that they target Zach because he is paid more, and once Roy starts to make more, they will hate him too.

George Will has it right: too many people in this country are addicted to anger. If they don't hate, they don't feel. Damn shame, because this forum used to be a great place. I stayed away for a couple of months, hoping things would improve. If anything, it is worse. I guess I need to make it permanent.


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## The Sebastian Express (Mar 3, 2005)

MM, you are right about Zach's baby. Infact, he has two children out of wedlock. He has a nine year old, now I believe, son and his daughter. When his daughter was brought up I believe the only people making a huge deal out of it were Talkhard and one other person who I can't recall, the rest of us congratulated him.

People are totally mucking up this strip club situation. I'd say 90% of us aren't mad that he was at a strip club, but are mad that it was a game night, he had been on bereavement leave for two days, and he was dumb enough to get caught going to this strip club when he should have known all it would do is cause trouble.

And as you can see by Quick's article that Roy plans to marry his girlfriend, which one would imagine is very hard to do since he's been busy since last June, he will probably wait until the summer.


I am eagerly awaiting the OT thread on Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell living together for 24 years and having a child out of wedlock. Clearly this also had influence on Kate Hudson, since she was technically raised in a single mother household since Russell and Hawn were never married and he is not her biological father, because she only fondly refers to him as her real dad.

Damn those kids for not getting married.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

Reep said:


> Maybe someone can help me understand this. Zach drops some coin (although not enough) at a strip club on his way to the airport and it makes headlines and multiple threads.
> 
> Brandon "Golden Child" Roy, gets a girl that he is not married to pregnant, and continues to refuse to commit to her (even though he was committed enough to have sex with her and get her pregnant), and it's all "Congratulations Brandon".
> 
> ...


Lets see where to start:

1) Not everybody is a Christian or a member of some religion that believes sex is a sacred act that means you are going to marry somebody if you do it. 

2) 50% of marriages fail in the first year. The reason why is because people use stupid reasons, such as getting somebody pregnant, as a reason to marry somebody. Marriage should be done because of love and respect, not being forced by a life situation. I think he should make his decision about if he wants to marry somebody, not anybody else. The important thing is Brandon is being responsible and not a dead beat dad.

3) If you have read or watched any interviews with Brandon, you would realize how wrong you are about him. He loves his girlfreind and is very excited about having a child. Just because he chooses to be patient about how he lives his life is no reason to compare him to the last of the bad seeds on the Blazers.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Oldmangrouch said:


> George Will has it right: too many people in this country are addicted to anger. If they don't hate, they don't feel. Damn shame, because this forum used to be a great place. I stayed away for a couple of months, hoping things would improve. If anything, it is worse. I guess I need to make it permanent.


*sigh*

It's too true. Hopefully when the team starts to win again there will be a little less of it around here...

Ed O.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Talkhard, you need to get some or something.

My parents had my eldest brother and sister before they were married and my mom was 17 when she was first pregnant. They've now been married for a healthy 25 years. 

Your logic is muffled. Are you a member of Haggard's church?


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

craigehlo said:


> Amen.
> 
> Also left off the list of his misdeeds was breaking Reuben Patterson face in practice, being accused of rape this summer and not giving a truthful first statement to police in his brother's murder investigation. I count those higher on the list of character flaws than showing up at the strip club and street racing.
> 
> Zach Randolph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


You forgot the time he got caught driving down the road stoned off his ***. I think his nicely paid (by now must be) lawyer got that one dropped though.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Brandon Roy > Wade Boggs

Oh and Dr. J should be locked up for years.


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## PapaG (Oct 4, 2004)

e_blazer1 said:


> Had Talkhard's first post originally read the way it does now, I wouldn't have said anything. He edited it (without noting that he did, by the way) to add a link supporting the statistics he talked about in his original post. He also deleted the comments he originally made about Brandon's actions being typical of his "homies" in the black community. It was those comments, not the statistics, that were racist in tone.
> 
> In the future, I would hope that he does his editing to remove such crud before he hits the "Submit Reply" button instead of after.


Thanks for posting this e_blazer. Your response seemed excessive based on the post I read, but now I understand. How are things?


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## Spoolie Gee (Feb 3, 2005)

This is ridiculous. Roy has been with his woman for years and is clearly in a great position to begin a family.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

e_blazer1 said:


> Had Talkhard's first post originally read the way it does now, I wouldn't have said anything. He edited it (without noting that he did, by the way) to add a link supporting the statistics he talked about in his original post.


I edited the post before I saw any replies to it. I frequently edit my posts to add information or clarify things. And by the way, I never said "homies," I said "homeboys." Is that supposed to be a racist term now? I honestly don't know. It's hard keeping up with the political correctness.


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> Talkhard, you need to get some or something.


Uh, huh. And I'M the one making ridiculous arguments?



> My parents had my eldest brother and sister before they were married and my mom was 17 when she was first pregnant. They've now been married for a healthy 25 years.


Good for them. Meanwhile, the majority of black children grow up without a father. 



> Your logic is muffled. Are you a member of Haggard's church?


MY logic is "muffled"?? You don't seem to have any logic at all. Your whole schtick seems to be character assassination and guilt by association.


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## NateBishop3 (Jul 22, 2003)

crandc said:


> Plenty of atheists get married, Nate (using secular vows) and plenty of religious people have nonmarital or common law relationships. Doesn't fit.
> 
> A LOT of people get married after a child is here or at least pending. Hell, Shaq and his wife had 3 kids before they made it legal. As long as they are all consenting adults and the children are cared for, it is again no one else's beeswax.


You misunderstood my point Crand. What I was saying is that the assumption that marriage MUST be entered into if you truly love someone, or have a child with someone, or if for some reason you've been dating someone for a long period of time and it's the next logical step, is wrong.

The Op was saying that Brandon was a bad person for having a child without marriage. I'm saying that marriage does not necessarily HAVE to happen, and to forgo the act does in no way shape or form make you a bad person. It's just a matter of belief. If I happen to find a person that I want to spend the rest of my life with, I'll ask her to marry me. I would think nothing less of someone for choosing not to do that though.


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## sjla2kology101 (Apr 23, 2006)

They've Been Together 7 Years! End Thread.


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## ehizzy3 (Jun 12, 2006)

brandon did nothing wrong, its obvious that they are commited to eachother and the baby....


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## porkchopexpress (May 24, 2006)

Talkhard said:


> Your whole schtick seems to be character assassination and guilt by association.


Are you serious? His whole schtick is bassed on character assassination and guilt by association? Wasn't the reason you used 'homeboys' and your association that this was not a good situation because Roy is black?


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## Talkhard (May 13, 2003)

porkchopexpress said:


> Are you serious? His whole schtick is bassed on character assassination and guilt by association? Wasn't the reason you used 'homeboys' and your association that this was not a good situation because Roy is black?


Is there something wrong with being a "homeboy"? Not that I know of. It's a way of saying "friends" in the black culture. If you think there was something racist about my using the term, you must think the term is objectionable. 

As for "guilt by association," that wasn't my point. The point is that illegitimate births are an everyday occurence in the black community, and are no big deal. Knowing this helps you understand how Roy (a guy I think very highly of) could have gotten himself into this situation. To many of us, an out-of-wedlock birth is shameful, but to Roy and his friends it clearly isn't.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

Oldmangrouch said:


> George Will has it right: too many people in this country are addicted to anger. If they don't hate, they don't feel. Damn shame, because this forum used to be a great place. I stayed away for a couple of months, hoping things would improve. If anything, it is worse. I guess I need to make it permanent.


I read that article the other day and thought it was one of his best in years. and that's saying something--he's one of the best conservative writers out there. the only flaw I saw was that he cited a number of liberals and only one conservative (Ann Coulter). it seems the right wing radio rage machine should at least have got a mention. 

anyway, the article Oldmangrouch is referencing is here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/23/AR2007032301589.html?sub=AR


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

I don't know why so many people feel compelled to get into other peoples' business. So many judgements about one another, if it doesn't harm you or your family, let the kid live the way he wants without the bicker of morality and religion.


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## AudieNorris (Jun 29, 2006)

Talkhard said:


> I edited the post before I saw any replies to it. I frequently edit my posts to add information or clarify things. And by the way, I never said "homies," I said "homeboys." Is that supposed to be a racist term now? I honestly don't know. It's hard keeping up with the political correctness.


Your pathetic statements ARE racist no matter how much you claim victim to political correctness. Give it a rest, this is BASKETBALL, bounce bounce shoot. You don't need to conform, your brain and fingers need a filter.


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## sportsnut1975 (Jul 6, 2006)

Congratulations to Brandon! Just remember to have him play for the Ducks in 18 years. I met Brandon and his girlfriend at a meet and greet and I could tell their relationship was genuine. I would assume thay will get married now that he has his money and a year under his belt. But that's his business.


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## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

As originator of this thread, I would like to ask that it be locked as the tone is not what I intended. I would also like to apologize for posting it in the first place.

My intent was to probe whether Brandon was cut more slack than Zach because Roy is the marketing darling of the Blazers. That point seems to have gotten lost in the many discussion of whether Brandon was objectively immoral for fathering a baby outside of marriage. 

I will make sure my future posts stick to on the court issues--because I'm really tired of all this **** and it makes me want to leave the board and never come back.

My apologies to everyone.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

mook said:


> I read that article the other day and thought it was one of his best in years. and that's saying something--he's one of the best conservative writers out there. the only flaw I saw was that he cited a number of liberals and only one conservative (Ann Coulter). it seems the right wing radio rage machine should at least have got a mention.


It is a good column, and I wish I disagreed with him.

Regarding the "balance" between right and left... he did mention Clinton bashers, although no one by name. I think that the left and Democrats are in a position to exhibit more of the anger that permeates both sides... mainly because they've been out of power and they've had clear targets in Bush and Congress.

Ed O.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

*Since I missed the cut off date*

here's my rant about Brandon vs Zach (I don't care if it gets closed..I wanted to say this ding dang dog gone it, the Sheriff is a..oops, wrong board)



Reep said:


> Maybe someone can help me understand this. Zach drops some coin (although not enough) at a strip club on his way to the airport and it makes headlines and multiple threads.
> 
> Brandon "Golden Child" Roy, gets a girl that he is not married to pregnant, and continues to refuse to commit to her (even though he was committed enough to have sex with her and get her pregnant), and it's all "Congratulations Brandon".
> 
> ...


It's not the greatest thing in the world, but it's not the same thing. One was done while on "leave" from his job, when he was supposed to be mourning the loss of a friend (and it's not about him being at a strip club that bugged people..it's that he did it while he was supposed to be on his way to the funeral). The other is someone who just had the birth of his first son, in which he missed the game and (get this) didn't go to a strip club (or bar, or some other dumb place) instead.

Maybe if Zach hadn't had a MIP, or a pot bust, or some of the other idiotic things he's done on his check list, people wouldn't think it's a idiotic move by his part. But considering those things, and considering the reason he wasn't with the team and considering the incident this summer *with a stripper*, one has to just shake his (or her) head and wonder if he's ever going to catch a clue.

The other is a player who's been with someone for 7 years now (or there-abouts), and _stayed_ with her after he became famous and rich..and still plans to on marrying her..and didn't just abandon her because he probably could get just about most any woman he wanted...well, if you can't see the difference between them, even discounting the religious aspect of it (or moralistic) then it comes off as just trying to defend Zach because you like him.

Hell, Clyde Drexler had a kid out of wedlock too. I'd put Jerome Kersey boning some girl in Utah a lot higher on the "jesus christ man! wtf are you thinking?" scale.

This is the 21st century, not the 1950's. Having a child out of wedlock isn't the "end of the world" like it used to be. And to anyone who it is, please join us in this century (and please spare me the "slippery slope" counter-argument too).


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

*Re: Since I missed the cut off date*

Hallelujah!


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