# SO.... the NETS



## Sanjan (Mar 12, 2003)

looks like VC might be heading north.... i think we can take them with home court but there a much tougher challenge then washington! How do you feel about the possible match up?


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## sammysamosa (Mar 10, 2003)

Although i'd like the free buy to the second round with washington...i'd like to end the bickering with all the nets fans once and for all...besides the starting lineup of the nets, they've got nothing on our bench...we'd bamboozle them


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## MonkeyBallZJr (May 7, 2004)

It's funny although it might not be a totally accurate reflection of each opposing fans but I see a lot of raps fan very worried about the Nets and a lot of Nets fans very worried about us too. I'm sure it will be a tight series and anybody that says we will run them off the court just doesn't know basketball. Of course this is hypothetically speaking here, we could still play Washington.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

sammysamosa said:


> Although i'd like the free buy to the second round with washington...i'd like to end the bickering with all the nets fans once and for all...besides the starting lineup of the nets, they've got nothing on our bench...we'd bamboozle them


Don't be so quick to underestimate the Nets' bench. The Raps do have some depth but w/ all the injuries the Nets have had this season, their young guys have gotten an opportunity for some run & they've improved. Believe it or not, the Nets have 1 of the highest scoring bench in the NBA.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

MonkeyBallZJr said:


> It's funny although it might not be a totally accurate reflection of each opposing fans but I see a lot of raps fan very worried about the Nets and a lot of Nets fans very worried about us too. I'm sure it will be a tight series and anybody that says we will run them off the court just doesn't know basketball. Of course this is hypothetically speaking here, we could still play Washington.


Yeah you are right. It's gonna be a very deep & troublesome series for fans on either side but as both a Net & Raptor fan, I'm hoping for some great & intense basketball & I'm not going to be disappointed no matter the outcome. Of course I'm a little tilted towards the Nets since Carter is 1 of my fave players (so is Bosh but I like Carter more) I'm hoping the Nets avoid the Bulls. I'm counting on the Wizards to lose their last 2 games but the Nets need to handle their business as well.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

So both the Nets and Wiz have two games left with the Wiz a game behind I believe. The Nets have New York and Chicago while the Wiz have someone and then Indiana to finish the season. 

If Jamison and the Wiz can get their act together vs the Pacers (you'd kinda hope so, as the Wiz are heading to the playoffs and the Pacers are going nowhere), the Nets would have to win both games to tie. Who owns the tie breaker.

Raptors vs Nets would be insane but I'm still pulling for the easier matchup and the Wizards are the easiest matchup in the playoffs this season, hands down.

I guess I'll be happy either way, which is a good way to be.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

sammysamosa said:


> Although i'd like the free buy to the second round with washington...i'd like to end the bickering with all the nets fans once and for all...besides the starting lineup of the nets, they've got nothing on our bench...we'd bamboozle them


They have a guy there named Boki Nachbar who's pretty good off the bench

Nets or Wiz, good luck either way


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

the new jersey bench has come a long way through this season but it's still nowhere close to ours. Nachbar has defo come to life, Boone is getting it done as a rook, Marcus is pretty decent for a rook PG, Wright is crap but even he is starting to get better. That said, it's all about their big 3 and being able to limit their efficiency.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Nets swept the season series against the Wiz. so NJ will have the the 6th if they do tie.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Raptors 2nd unit consists of Bargnani, Humphries, Mopete, Dixon, Calderon. Each player with the exception of Humphries and Calderon are capable of dropping 20+ points any given night. Humphries is perhaps the best rebounder on the Raptors team with his 18 rebound game a couple nights ago and Calderon is a starting caliber PG.

Nets' bench may be decent, but besides Nachbar, there really isn't much of a scoring threat anywhere else.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I can see the Nets beating the Knicks but not the Bulls. Up to the Wizards, who wants to play us?


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I think the Nets are in that declining period where they are living on past accomplishments. Kind of like the Raptors teams after 2001 where everyone felt injuries were the only thing holding us back and we were better than our record. In fact the injuries hid the fact that our team was just getting old and wasn't good enough to go deep anymore.

Nets lost Jefferson for 27 games this year. That's a lot, but if their bench is really that good they could recover. Kidd and Carter were healthy all year and that is something you couldn't count on. Mikki Moore has been an outstanding replacement for Krstic. So why are they so bad? This late run is against horrible teams and they are getting blown out by good teams during this stretch.

Raps lost Bosh for 12, Parker and TJ for 8 each, Bargnani for 16, and Garbo will miss 15. FJones never contributed. We've been incredibly consistent.

We should beat the Nets. Dumping VC out of the playoffs would be sweet but losing to him would feel 10 times worse. The stakes are very high in that series. Hopefully CHI plays hard that final game and the Wiz sneak out a win.


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## undefined_playa (Oct 23, 2005)

I wouldn't say MoP is capable of dropping 20+ on a given night...:biggrin:


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

undefined_playa said:


> I wouldn't say MoP is capable of dropping 20+ on a given night...:biggrin:


not by getting glued on the bench. He did score over 20 like 5-6 times this year though, and several games in the teens.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

I don't wanna see new jersey in the playoffs not only because they are an improved team but mainly because of the media circus that will turn it into a Vince vs raptors thing I want the media to focus on the raps playoff drive and we won't get that if we play new jersey I'm cheering for the wiz now


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

Comon' you guys. Do you seriously want to avoid the Nets? We'd rather play the Wizards sans Butler and Arenas in our first series in 5 seasons than *Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson, Jason Kidd* and the New Jersey Nets?

To be honest, I *WANT* the Nets to play us. I WANT this to be an entertaining series. I WANT all the media hoopla. I WANT the grudge between Toronto Fans and V.C. etc...
Just think about how insane the ACC will be come game one. 
It will be insanity.

The fact of the matter is that the team would get alot more exposure plus alot more people in Toronto will be interested in the series because of Vince, which is a benefit (especially with the Leafs out of the playoffs). I want this town to go crazy over the playoffs. But this won't happen with the Wizards. They'll most probably be blow-outs.

Since when do we, fans, want to have the easier more boring series than the one that could provide the most excitment? We love our Raptors because they're a gritty team. We should act the same and welcome the possibility of playing the Nets.
If we love our team so much, we want them to grind it out and put their *blood, sweat and tears *into a series. This is the only rivalry the Raptors have and people would rather see the Wizards? I want the Raptors to earn a 2nd round playoff appearence. If they get bounced, it shows that the team is still young and not ready. Plus losing will also build character and make the team hungrier.

I say bring on the Nets. Bragging rights? Even better. I'm okay with losing as long as its entertaining and it builds character. Who are we kidding? This team isn't going to win the championship. Might as well make the most out of it. If this team is really the third best team in the East, then we should play a good series and that would mean the Nets and the poor Wizards. 

Bring on the Nets. They're heated up as of late and that's even better. I hope the Nets play the Raptors because I'll be superglued to my TV during the whole series.


p.s.
And don't discount the Nets. Their big three is still one of the best in the league and Mikki Moore has been terribly underated, playing some very solid minutes at center. They have played great defense on Bosh in two of the three meetings and their bench in Nachbar, Eddie House and Marcus Williams can be deadly if they heat up.

p.p.s
Think how sweet it would be if we, Raptors fans, can brag about ousting the Nets out of the playoffs. No matter what excuses they can offer, a fact is a fact. It's the same thing that the Leafs fans can still brag about to Ottawa. They kicked them out of the playoffs two years in a row and to be honets, it felt good mentioning it to Sens fans.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

when Gilbert went out over a couple weeks ago I pretty much knew this would be our destiny

We don't really match up well with their big three, Collins has played great D on Bosh, combine that with the experience that NJ has and this makes for a very tough first round opponent.

If Toronto can make shots they win, but I'm kinda concerned by our poor shooting percentage and slow starts of late


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

outside of Chicago and Detroit, Jersey gives us the hardest matchups for us...wing players kill us and the Nets have 2 of the best in the game...but if we get by these guys in the 1st round, i think we're looking at ECFs because the momentum and confidence gained from that series will definitely spill over into the next...


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I think it will be a great series. It should bring out the best in both parties. I know fans will have their little potshots here and there, but seriously you couldnt ask for a better first round matchup.


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## thenetsfan (Sep 3, 2005)

i hope weget u guys in the playoffs i love this match and also the Golden State, Dallas match up.


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## TriDoub5 (Jan 24, 2007)

SickGame said:


> Comon' you guys. Do you seriously want to avoid the Nets? We'd rather play the Wizards sans Butler and Arenas in our first series in 5 seasons than *Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson, Jason Kidd* and the New Jersey Nets?
> 
> To be honest, I *WANT* the Nets to play us. I WANT this to be an entertaining series. I WANT all the media hoopla. I WANT the grudge between Toronto Fans and V.C. etc...
> Just think about how insane the ACC will be come game one.
> ...


Most sensible post I have read in this topic.

Hope if it happens it's a good series.:cheers:


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## AllEyezonTX (Nov 16, 2006)

Nets in position to be first-round foe

The Raptors locked up home-court advantage for the first round of the playoffs last night, but exactly who their guests will be this weekend is anybody's guess.

*So here's a not-so-wild one: the Raptors will face Vince Carter in their first playoff games of the post-Vince Carter era. As fateful matchups go, it'd be a doozy. It'd be the self-absorbed quitter formerly known as Air Canada matched up against a team that defines itself as an all-for-one collective. It'd be Mr. Half Man, Half A Season against a franchise having a dream season. It'd be a zoo. *

"I'm sure that'd be a great story, too," said Chris Bosh, the Raptors' all-star, smiling at the possibility of Vinsanity in the first round. "I'm sure the fans would love to see Vince for the first game, *but like I said before, I don't care who it is. We may see him and we may not."*

Perhaps it's too early for Hogtown fans to draft an ad campaign's worth of anti-Carter slogans and dust off the No.15-emblazoned baby bibs – the ingenious souvenir handed out before Carter's first game in Toronto after Rob Babcock, the apparently panic-stricken Toronto GM, ostensibly gifted him to New Jersey in December 2004. Surely it's premature to reserve a parking spot for the most influential mother since Teresa, Michele Carter-Scott, who was once said to be more powerful than the GM in the local hoop-wise hierarchy.

The Nets, after all, aren't the only possible playoff opponent. For most of the past few weeks it has seemed most likely that the Raptors, who clinched the No.3 seed in the East with last night's 107-105 win over the New York Knicks, would face the Washington Wizards, who seemed locked into the sixth seed they still occupy this morning. Now, though, the Wizards are in free-fall, a shell of their former selves since they lost their two best players, Gilbert Arenas and Caron Butler, to injury. Yesterday, they got drilled by 33 at home to Chicago. They've lost seven of their past eight.

*So if the Nets can beat the Knicks tonight in New York* – this with both teams on the second leg of back-to-back sets after yesterday's New Jersey win at Indiana – Washington will have to win one of its remaining two games to maintain the sixth seed. The Nets, who would pull even with the Wizards at 40 victories if they beat New York, hold the tiebreaker on Washington. To boggle the mind a little further, the Wizards play at home tomorrow against Toronto's other possible playoff opponent – an Orlando team that could also move up to sixth if it wins both its remaining games and Washington and New Jersey falter.

So it's still complicated. But it's more likely V.C. than D.C., which is to say the first round could prove a lot more daunting than the Raptors had imagined.

While Washington is listing, the Nets, winners of six of their past eight, have looked slightly scary of late. *A week ago, Carter and Jason Kidd became the first NBA teammates to put up triple-doubles in the same game since 1989, when a couple of Chicago Bulls named Jordan and Pippen did the same.* Carter's numbers were monstrous: 46 points, 16 rebounds and 10 assists. The good news for Raptors fans was that the Nets, for all the statistical flash, still needed overtime to beat the Wizards. 

Still, there's no denying Carter has a knack for seizing the moment. On a memorable night a season ago, he scored 24 of his 42 points in the fourth quarter to spur a New Jersey win at the Air Canada Centre. He's had some maddeningly fabulous games against his old club, not to mention some mundane ones. In four games against Toronto this season he's had 25, 12, 32 and 17 points. 

Still, if the choice is D.C. or V.C., the Home of Dubya is the easier first-round W. So tonight, if you are a Raptors fan, the logical thing to say is, "Go Knicks!" Otherwise, the prevailing mantra is soon to be, "Boo, Vince!"

*"That," Bosh said, smiling at the prospect, "would be something."*


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

AllEyezonTX said:


> It'd be the self-absorbed quitter formerly known as Air Canada matched up against a team that defines itself as an all-for-one collective. It'd be *Mr. Half Man, Half A Season* against a franchise having a dream season. It'd be a zoo.


Some guys really live in the past it seems. Carter has missed only 8 games in the last 3 years.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Go Wizards.


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## Real (Aug 3, 2005)

I can't believe it. I thought that Raptors fans would want to face Vince in the first round? I thought it would be Net fans that would be the most apprehensive about facing Toronto. I certainly am.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Yes, Nets vs Raptors would be amazing. But are the playoffs about being involved in epic battles or are they about winning and advancing? Personally, I have my sights set on the finals and the Wizards would provide a much smoother beginning to that quest.


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

Nobody should be scared of the Nets. The fun part will be Raps fans booing Carter's *** for 2 (or more) games. That'll be f'n sweet. Esp. when the Raps send him crying home to his overbearing mom.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Bring 'em on. I ain't scared.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Aurelino said:


> Some guys really live in the past it seems. Carter has missed only 8 games in the last 3 years.


What do injuries have to do with putting in half a season's worth of effort?


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

narrator said:


> Nobody should be scared of the Nets. The fun part will be Raps fans booing Carter's *** for 2 (or more) games. That'll be f'n sweet. Esp. when the Raps send him crying home to his overbearing mom.


Great point. There's going to be sooooo much heckling in this series. Pretty much all the games Vince has had in Toronto, combined, each game. Fellas, the intensity will be so high we might just watch Vince crumble down to tears at midcourt by the time this series is over!


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Aurelino said:


> Some guys really live in the past it seems. Carter has missed only 8 games in the last 3 years.


Nothing new there.

Please NETS get the 6th seed.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Great point. There's going to be sooooo much heckling in this series. Pretty much all the games Vince has had in Toronto, combined, each game. Fellas, the intensity will be so high we might just watch Vince crumble down to tears at midcourt by the time this series is over!


Or watch em go 40 crazy on us with his fist held high by the time this series is over. (I would love it nonetheless)


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Air Fly said:


> Or watch em go 40 crazy on us with his fist held high by the time this series is over. (I would love it nonetheless)


He might do the former but you and I both know the latter won't happen.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

They don't match up well with the raps thats for sure.


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## frank_white (Apr 20, 2005)

In some ways, I prefer the Nets to the Wiz. One, we would beat them. And Two, they`d be stiffer competition than the Wiz, and I think it`s important for the Raptors to realize that they will have to elevate their game to compete in the playoffs. I could see us getting too lax and start playing inconsistent b-ball if we play the Wiz instead. The Nets would keep us focused.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

frank_white said:


> In some ways, I prefer the Nets to the Wiz. One, we would beat them. And Two, they`d be stiffer competition than the Wiz, and I think it`s important for the Raptors to realize that they will have to elevate their game to compete in the playoffs. I could see us getting too lax and start playing inconsistent b-ball if we play the Wiz instead. The Nets would keep us focused.


Yup, much better to be in that competitive frame of mind going into the second round as well.


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## TJ Ford (Dec 16, 2006)

I have to admit.. playing NJ would bring heck a lot of excitement...
Fans in Toronto will go crazy if we get by Vince... but what if it's the other way around?? We will hate Vince forever and ever.....

Go Washington!!


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I can't see us having much left in the tank if we have a drawn-out series with the Nets. Too much emotion. We're better off facing the Wizards in the first round and having something left for the Bulls.


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## flushingflash (Jan 4, 2006)

im actually cheering for the nets to get the 6th spot. i know washington would be the easier opponent but a raptors-nets matchup would be intense and exciting and i would not want to miss it. plus beating vince in the playoffs would be too sweet.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

If Wahsington loses tommorow to the Magic, we get the 6th spot.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

All Washington has to do is split. New Jersey will lose to Chicago.


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

Jizzy said:


> If Indy loses tommorow to the Magic, we get the 6th spot.


washington you mean...ya, it doesn't look good, but i'm pretty sure the games on wednesday still matter. if you lose to chicago and washington beats indy (even if they lose tomorrow), they would take 6th.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

speedythief said:


> All Washington has to do is split. *New Jersey will lose to Chicago*.



You don't know that. Washington could lose out from here.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

crimedog said:


> washington you mean...ya, it doesn't look good, but i'm pretty sure the games on wednesday still matter. if you lose to chicago and washington beats indy (even if they lose tomorrow), they would take 6th.



yes I know. If they lose to Orlando tommorow, we both have 40-41 records in which we hold the tiebreaker. If they lose to indy on Wed. and we lose to Chicago, we would still get the 6th seed.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Jizzy said:


> If Indy loses tommorow to the Magic, we get the 6th spot.


really? what do those teams have to do with the race for 6th?


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

SkywalkerAC said:


> really? what do those teams have to do with the race for 6th?



Beats me.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Jizzy said:


> You don't know that. Washington could lose out from here.


They have a good chance of winning one of two. A big home crowd should be on hand tomorrow to help push them, then they take on a depressed, playing-for-nothing Pacers team.

Chicago, on the other hand, wants wins and wants to run up scores. Last time they played the Nets they won by 35, but you know that.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

speedythief said:


> They have a good chance of winning one of two. A big home crowd should be on hand tomorrow to help push them, then they take on a depressed, playing-for-nothing Pacers team.
> 
> *Chicago, on the other hand, wants wins and wants to run up scores. Last time they played the Nets they won by 35, but you know that*.



Ah yes but before that the Nets won both games even one in Chicago but whatever. You are free to beleive in what you want. The Nets are at Home and I am assuming you knew that. A home crowd really didn't help the Wiz against Chicago, BTW.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Good luck to you, as if you needed it but hopefully, we play the Raps in the first round.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Go Washington!

Either way, I'm ready to get the playoffs started.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Jizzy said:


> Ah yes but before that the Nets won both games even one in Chicago but whatever. You are free to beleive in what you want. The Nets are at Home and I am assuming you knew that. A home crowd really didn't help the Wiz against Chicago, BTW.


We'll see.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

A big home crowd?

Does anyone go to Nets games? The place always looks so empty.

30 wins, now that's an home advantage.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

shookem said:


> A big home crowd?
> 
> Does anyone go to Nets games? The place always looks so empty.
> 
> 30 wins, now that's an home advantage.


Meant Washington.

New Jersey does 84.9% paid for their home games, 24th in the NBA. Washington does 92.2% with close to 1500 more fans per game than Jersey, at 17th. Toronto is just behind them at 18th (92.0%).


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

Jizzy said:


> yes I know. If they lose to Orlando tommorow, we both have 40-41 records in which we hold the tiebreaker. If they lose to indy on Wed. and we lose to Chicago, we would still get the 6th seed.


ok, but that's not what you said. 

your magic number is still 2...as is washington's.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

speedythief said:


> Chicago, on the other hand, wants wins and wants to run up scores. Last time they played the Nets they won by 35, but you know that.


Chicago doesn't _want_ to run up scores per se. Skiles would never stand for that. Hell, he hounded Gordon last year when he felt he celebrated too much after a game winner.

The Nets blowout was more to send a message. Skiles said himself that the two losses the Bulls had to the Nets, they were up by 18 at one point and squandered the lead. Skiles said he wanted to let New Jersey know that if the Bulls take a huge lead against them that New Jersey can't just "turn it on" and come back against the Bulls every time they want.

Anyways, not as a Bulls fan, but just as a fan of basketball, I want nothing more than to see the Nets play the Raptors. 

I could care less who the Bulls get between the Wizards and Nets (so long as it ain't the Heat), but to see Vince Carter lose to his former team in the playoffs...would be a thing of beauty.

And then we'll see you guys in Round 2 hopefully.

Til' then...good luck.


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## chocolove (Apr 4, 2006)

I am kinda torn between who I would want to play. If we play the nets its gonna be two exciting series in row cause after we beat them we might get a chance to play the bulls, which would also be an exciting series. With the Wiz though, it would be a less intense series but easier on the players emotionally and physically.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

speedythief said:


> I can't see us having much left in the tank if we have a drawn-out series with the Nets. Too much emotion. We're better off facing the Wizards in the first round and having something left for the Bulls.


I'd rather face tough competition then slack off against an NBDL team minus Jamison and Buttler. If the raps get past the NETS they'll have some major confidence against whomever they face next.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Aurelino said:


> Some guys really live in the past it seems. Carter has missed only 8 games in the last 3 years.


Physically, yes. But he has half-assed it physically and mentally much more often then 8 games.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Yes, Nets vs Raptors would be amazing. But are the playoffs about being involved in epic battles or are they about winning and advancing? Personally, I have my sights set on the finals and the Wizards would provide a much smoother beginning to that quest.


Exactly. I would much rather win then potentially have the upper hand in a uselesss internet message board pissing match.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I think we beat the Nets anyway. And to most of the players the whole VC thing has no real meaning. They just know the fans hate him. So I don't know it would be that emotionally draining compared to any other series.

What I don't want is the endless media focus on VC and the tiring discussions about him on these boards. The guy is not even an important player in the league anymore. He has been passed by with better, younger players who actually have a drive to win and improve their games.

Is VC supposed to be an elite scorer? Bosh is not even 3 ppg less and takes almost 4 shots less per game. 

Knocking VC out would be nice but I almost prefer that he just quietly exit the playoffs with no real attention after getting swept by another team.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Yes, the Nets are exceedingly beatable but the Wizards are the most favourable matchup IN THE PLAYOFFS. That's the point. As Raptor fans we'll more than embrace a series vs the Nets, we'll revel in it. But fighting for playoff position is all about earning the easier matchup.


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

JuniorNoboa said:


> Physically, yes. But he has half-assed it physically and mentally much more often then 8 games.


Can you tell me how many games since he joined the Nets?


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Aurelino said:


> Can you tell me how many games since he joined the Nets?


58 games, and that last quarter in game 62 of the 2006 season in which he was particularly brutal.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

sammysamosa said:


> Although i'd like the free buy to the second round with washington...i'd like to end the bickering with all the nets fans once and for all...besides the starting lineup of the nets, they've got nothing on our bench...*we'd bamboozle them*


You'd hornswaggle them.


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

JuniorNoboa said:


> 58 games, and that last quarter in game 62 of the 2006 season in which he was particularly brutal.


Ok, can you provide evidence to support your conjecture?


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

Aurelino said:


> Ok, can you provide evidence to support your conjecture?


for someone with borat as their avtar, you don't really seem to have a great sense of humour. or do you think borat is actually from kazakstan?

raptor fans are very familiar with how dangerous and good vince carter CAN be, but you guys defend 'since he's been with the nets'..yet despite having vince and the supposed best point guard in the east, you are a game under .500. 

either vince take games off...or you guys just suck. 

let me guess...injuries? name another team with two all stars who have played all year that is under 0.500. 

vince takes games off. just ask him.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

I sure am glad the Nenad ain't around if we do play the Nets.


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

I can't believe that some people here would rather play the Wizards than the Nets. How can you be fans of basektabll (not Raptor fans but basketball fans) and say this?

This is shameful.
Makes me shake my head and wonder sometimes. 

I love basektball. I really really love the sport that Mr.Naismith created. I've been playing it since I was a young kid and I spend more time reading about or playing ball than I do anything else. Having said that, my inner love for the sport wants me to see the Nets and that's how it should be. 
Yes, you have a favourite team but you must love the sport first before you can truly love a team. It is only then than you can call yourself *a real fan*. And if you are that, you want to see competitive, gritty, hard played basketball with an intense atmosphere over a series against the struggling Wizards.

*Your explanation is that you'd rather see the Raptors have an easier time and be less tired and weary? I can tell you right now that those players want to play the Nets because it brings out a higher level competitiveness in them, a trait or attribute that is the reason why they are who they are today. Without their love for competition, they wouldn't be in the NBA. They're passionate and the bigger the stakes, the stronger the heartbeat. This alone makes their being crave to play a series against the Nets rather than the Wizards. A real fan would understand it, feel it himself and bless it at the same time.*

If you want the Raptors to play the Wiz, then you're simply a spectator of your favourite team (usually determined by one player or the city you live in) and not a lover of the sport.


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

crimedog said:


> for someone with borat as their avtar, you don't really seem to have a great sense of humour. or do you think borat is actually from kazakstan?
> 
> raptor fans are very familiar with how dangerous and good vince carter CAN be, but you guys defend 'since he's been with the nets'..yet despite having vince and the supposed best point guard in the east, you are a game under .500.
> 
> ...


Borat is more about exposing people's prejudices than about humor. If you think the Nets record is below .500 because Vince has takes games off, they you are free to think so. Injuries are not an excuse but a reality. Because of injuries, off-court issue affecting team-chemistry and inconsistent play, thr Nets find themselves below .500. Of the two reasons you suggested for the Nets poor record, if I had to choose one, I'd say (this season) the Nets have sucked and are not a good team, rather than hypothetically putting it all on Vince. And I don't know what's so sacrosanct about the .500 mark. So if they end up at 41-41, instead of 40-42 will you say they don't suck?


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

SickGame said:


> I can't believe that some people here would rather play the Wizards than the Nets. How can you be fans of basektabll (not Raptor fans but basketball fans) and say this?
> 
> This is shameful.
> Makes me shake my head and wonder sometimes.
> ...


So you're saying you can only be a sportsfan if you make decisions based on passion rather than logic? When people said they would rather not play the Bulls was that because they weren't real fans?

I don't want to see the Raps play the Wiz because they'll be better prepared to later rounds, I want them to play the Wiz because they are probably the two most vulnerable teams in the east. IMO, the Raps could go down hard in the first round. There's plenty of reasons to think so and I don't think the Raps are beating anyone in four games straight. The others reasons for not wanting to play the Nets have already been mentioned and include wanting to move past the VC era and avoid the media and chatroom ****storm that a Raps/Nets series will cause.

It's cool to use passion to fuel your opinions, sports is after all an emotional endeavour but don't assume that your's in the only correct way of thinking.


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

Aurelino said:


> Borat is more about exposing people's prejudices than about humor. If you think the Nets record is below .500 because Vince has takes games off, they you are free to think so. Injuries are not an excuse but a reality. Because of injuries, off-court issue affecting team-chemistry and inconsistent play, thr Nets find themselves below .500. Of the two reasons you suggested for the Nets poor record, if I had to choose one, I'd say (this season) the Nets have sucked and are not a good team, rather than hypothetically putting it all on Vince. And I don't know what's so sacrosanct about the .500 mark. So if they end up at 41-41, instead of 40-42 will you say they don't suck?


i hate that crap. borat is a character created by a very funny comedian, who is meant to be funny. sure there is social commentary within the character, but he's trying to make people laugh. which is what the post you quoted was doing, because asking how many games vince has taken off is ridiculous. obviously quantifying something like that is impossible. 

it's like you're dating our ex-girlfriend and trying to deny that she cheats on you. sorry man, we've been there before...and we denied it too. vince is one of the most talented players in the game and he can be better than anyone on any given night...and i'll readily admit i'm a bit afraid to play the nets because of that. but i also know there's something in his makeup that causes him to float through games at times. i'll be honest, i don't think he minds losing that much. i'm sure he dislikes it, but he just doesn't have that killer instinct. 

he's certainly brought it more consistently since joining the nets than he did his last couple years with the raptors, but he most definitely had a stretch in the middle of the season where he just didn't seem to care.


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

shookem said:


> So you're saying you can only be a sportsfan if you make decisions based on passion rather than logic? When people said they would rather not play the Bulls was that because they weren't real fans?
> 
> I don't want to see the Raps play the Wiz because they'll be better prepared to later rounds, I want them to play the Wiz because they are probably the two most vulnerable teams in the east. IMO, the Raps could go down hard in the first round. There's plenty of reasons to think so and I don't think the Raps are beating anyone in four games straight. The others reasons for not wanting to play the Nets have already been mentioned and include wanting to move past the VC era and avoid the media and chatroom ****storm that a Raps/Nets series will cause.
> 
> It's cool to use passion to fuel your opinions, sports is after all an emotional endeavour but don't assume that your's in the only correct way of thinking.


No no, I was speaking about embracing the passion. 
I feel that it's a trap to settle for the easier win because it's less deserved and less competitive, therefore less passion. For me, and the world of art and sports, passion rulse all. I'm not talking about blind passion but refined passion that fuels you as well. 
I also feel that this would add alot of closure to the VC-Nets-Raptors debacle, which would be nice as well. This would be the best way to move past the VC era...kind of like a band-aid, if we win that is.

And I didn't assume that my opinion is the correct way of thinking because it's exactly that, my opinion. I believe I am right, as does anyone else when they voiced their opinion. I just do it in a slightly brash manner which makes it seem that anything else is wrong, and that's my fault, I agree. So I do apologize if I came off that way.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Aurelino said:


> Borat is more about exposing people's prejudices than about humor. ?


So you exposed the fact that I hate Vince Carter. Outstanding work detective. Since I have a prejudice, I am obviously wrong... outstanding.

The only problem detective, is that having certain prejudices is a good thing. I have a prejudice against hanging out with drug dealers. I have a prejudice against those who have punched me in the face for no reason. I have a prejudice against people who are lazy at work, be in a professional office environment or on the basketball court.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

crimedog said:


> i hate that crap. borat is a character created by a very funny comedian, who is meant to be funny. sure there is social commentary within the character, but he's trying to make people laugh. which is what the post you quoted was doing, because asking how many games vince has taken off is ridiculous. obviously quantifying something like that is impossible.
> 
> it's like you're dating our ex-girlfriend and trying to deny that she cheats on you. sorry man, we've been there before...and we denied it too. vince is one of the most talented players in the game and he can be better than anyone on any given night...and i'll readily admit i'm a bit afraid to play the nets because of that. but i also know there's something in his makeup that causes him to float through games at times. i'll be honest, i don't think he minds losing that much. i'm sure he dislikes it, but he just doesn't have that killer instinct.
> 
> he's certainly brought it more consistently since joining the nets than he did his last couple years with the raptors, but he most definitely had a stretch in the middle of the season where he just didn't seem to care.


Who are we to take serious, a raps fan who barely watch NETS games or a respectable NETS poster who watches his team on the regular? The fact that you are arguing with him that Carter tanked games for the NETS is laughable.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

This match-up is beneficial to the Raptors cause it could basically mean the end of VC era and for the fans to get over it and leave it behind them, it all depends though if they win.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

lucky777s said:


> I think we beat the Nets anyway. And to most of the players the whole VC thing has no real meaning. They just know the fans hate him. So I don't know it would be that emotionally draining compared to any other series.
> 
> What I don't want is the endless media focus on VC and the tiring discussions about him on these boards. The guy is not even an important player in the league anymore. He has been passed by with better, younger players who actually have a drive to win and improve their games.
> 
> ...


A guy who just recorded his 2nd triple double of the season last night, a guy who joined wilt as the only 4 players in history to have a stateline of 46/16/10, a guy who averages 25.3/6/4.8 IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT IN THE LEAGUE and FOR SURE NOT AN ELITE SCORER....

:boohoo:


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> Who are we to take serious, a raps fan who barely watch NETS games or a respectable NETS poster who watches his team on the regular? The fact that you are arguing with him that Carter tanked games for the NETS is laughable.


There are several Nets fans (longtime ones at that) that criticize Vince fairly frequently on the Nets board. Are you saying they are not respectable?


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

JuniorNoboa said:


> There are several Nets fans (longtime ones at that) that criticize Vince fairly frequently on the Nets board. Are you saying they are not respectable?


They criticize his shot selection, defense etc but didn't say Vince tank games for them. Big difference.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> A guy who just recorded his 2nd triple double of the season last night, a guy who joined wilt as the only 4 players in history to have a stateline of 46/16/10, a guy who averages 25.3/6/4.8 IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT IN THE LEAGUE and FOR SURE NOT AN ELITE SCORER....
> 
> :boohoo:


Are you saying he is as good as Wilt Chamberlain. Otherwise what is the point other then he had a really good game.

Are Willie Burton, Tracy Murray, Tony Delk legends because they once dropped 50?


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> They criticize his shot selection, defense etc but didn't say Vince tank games for them. Big difference.


I never accused him of tanking games... I accused him of not being mentally there for many games...

What are the consequneces of being off mentally... hmmm:
- poor defence
- poor shot selection
- poor execution


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

The Raptors won 47 or so games this season. They are definitely the favorites going into the series. They have no reason to be worried about an inconsistent Nets team


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

JuniorNoboa said:


> Are Willie Burton, Tracy Murray, Tony Delk legends because they once dropped 50?


How was their dunking ability?

:devil2:


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

JuniorNoboa said:


> Are you saying he is as good as Wilt Chamberlain. Otherwise what is the point other then he had a really good game.
> 
> Are Willie Burton, Tracy Murray, Tony Delk legends because they once dropped 50?


All i'm saying he made history. Those guys you mentioned didn't. Carter is the only 4th player in history to have done that.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

JuniorNoboa said:


> I never accused him of tanking games... I accused him of not being mentally there for many games...
> 
> What are the consequneces of being off mentally... hmmm:
> - poor defence
> ...


Fair enough...


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

crimedog said:


> i hate that crap. borat is a character created by a very funny comedian, who is meant to be funny. sure there is social commentary within the character, but he's trying to make people laugh. which is what the post you quoted was doing, because asking how many games vince has taken off is ridiculous. obviously quantifying something like that is impossible.


This is going off-topic, but again this isn't what Borat is about. 



> it's like you're dating our ex-girlfriend and trying to deny that she cheats on you. sorry man, we've been there before...and we denied it too. vince is one of the most talented players in the game and he can be better than anyone on any given night...and i'll readily admit i'm a bit afraid to play the nets because of that. but i also know there's something in his makeup that causes him to float through games at times. i'll be honest, i don't think he minds losing that much. i'm sure he dislikes it, but he just doesn't have that killer instinct.


Saying that Vince doesn't have that killer instinct is totally different than saying that he takes games off and that the Nets record is below .500 because of him taking games off.


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

JuniorNoboa said:


> So you exposed the fact that I hate Vince Carter. Outstanding work detective. Since I have a prejudice, I am obviously wrong... outstanding.
> 
> The only problem detective, is that having certain prejudices is a good thing. I have a prejudice against hanging out with drug dealers. I have a prejudice against those who have punched me in the face for no reason. I have a prejudice against people who are lazy at work, be in a professional office environment or on the basketball court.


LOL, you take this stuff way too seriously. Where did I say that I was exposing YOU? I merely said what I think Borat is about. I did not say that because I have his avatar, I also propagate his philposphy in real life or on message boards.


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> Fair enough...


I also never accused him of tanking games...I accused him of taking nights off. Which I would also associate with those criticisms. 

I think pointing out his huge triple double underscores my point. he has all the talent in the world...but it only shows up sporadically. 

on a side note, other than the washington wizards without arenas and butler, the nets have not beaten a playoff team since they beat Orlando on February 10th.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Taking nights off is like tanking games. Which Carter doesn't do with the NETS.


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

no it's not. taking games off is taking perimiter shots and fade aways when you can dunk on anyone in the league, then next game playing like a man possessed. it's shooting 20 shots and 0 free throws...something vince carter should never do. tanking games is losing on purpose. i never said vince does that.

anyway, of course you're going to defend him. i would too. i did. but you won't convince me. i know vince carter and a leopard doesn't change its spots.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I don't get why people want a solid week or two of this, with a week before and after... it's mind-bottling... go Wizards.


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

Really AirFly? 
..You can't say that you've ever felt that Vince Carter doesn't seem to be playing his hardest? 
.....Like really? You think he's putting it all out there on the court? 
............Really?
..................No seriously? Never? Didn't seem that his mind was somewhere?
......................Really?

Wow.


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

speedythief said:


> I don't get why people want a solid week or two of this, with a week before and after... it's mind-bottling... go Wizards.


there is one song...and one song only i will skate to...lady hump by black eyed peas


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## elsaic15 (May 24, 2006)

heres to wizards losing tomorrow (doubtful), nets beating the bulls...and the most exciting playoffs series in years


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

SickGame said:


> Really AirFly?
> ..You can't say that you've ever felt that Vince Carter doesn't seem to be playing his hardest?
> .....Like really? You think he's putting it all out there on the court?
> ............Really?
> ...


I've watched all his games this season so i'll say Carter didn't take nights off with the NETS. He might have a bad shooting night which results most of the time in an awful stateline, but that's mainly due to his unselfish nature of play.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> I've watched all his games this season so i'll say Carter didn't take nights off with the NETS. He might have a bad shooting night which results most of the time in an awful stateline, but that's mainly due to his unselfish nature of play.


You probably can't tell when a player takes nights off.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

seifer0406 said:


> You probably can't tell when a player takes nights off.


For some when Carter has a bad performance it means he took the night off, but that logic doesn't apply to the other star players.


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## elsaic15 (May 24, 2006)

exactly, some nights u just dont have it, just because a player is struggling doenst mean he is tanking


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

Air Fly said:


> For some when Carter has a bad performance it means he took the night off, but that logic doesn't apply to the other star players.


Even though he admitted that he's taken nights off while being in Toronto? You believe that even since he moved to New Jersey, he's become a changed player because the change of scenery was so refreshing that he decided to play hard in every game?


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## elsaic15 (May 24, 2006)

SickGame said:


> Even though he admitted that he's taken nights off while being in Toronto? You believe that even since he moved to New Jersey, he's become a changed player because the change of scenery was so refreshing that he decided to play hard in every game?


no he didnt. he was talking about working out in the offseason, and he said he didnt work as hard in the offseason as he could have. unsurprisingly, his words were taking out of context as espn edited thompson's interview, and thompson later apoligized to carter for espn's behavior


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

elsaic15 said:


> no he didnt. he was talking about working out in the offseason, and he said he didnt work as hard in the offseason as he could have. unsurprisingly, his words were taking out of context as espn edited thompson's interview, and thompson later apoligized to carter for espn's behavior


Please :lol:


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> For some when Carter has a bad performance it means he took the night off, but that logic doesn't apply to the other star players.


Frankly...what are you coming to our board trying to achieve? 

Do you want us to say vince is a gritty competitor, who lays it on the line every game? As far as I'm concerned, vince's play in his last season with the raptors gives every raptor fan, if not every basketball fan, a perfectly legitmate reason to question his heart and effort on a nightly basis. Because if a player is willing to gear down like that and use such a low amount of his potential, why would we ever believe that he has decided to go full out every night all of a sudden? It's not about off nights...it's about nights off. How many games do dwyane wade and kobe bryant go without going to the free throw line? 

anyway, the nets are going to lose tonight and washington's going to win...so i hope you enjoy your 4 games against the bulls.


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## arhie (Jul 4, 2006)

crimedog said:


> Frankly...what are you coming to our board trying to achieve?
> 
> Do you want us to say vince is a gritty competitor, who lays it on the line every game? As far as I'm concerned, vince's play in his last season with the raptors gives every raptor fan, if not every basketball fan, a perfectly legitmate reason to question his heart and effort on a nightly basis. Because if a player is willing to gear down like that and use such a low amount of his potential, why would we ever believe that he has decided to go full out every night all of a sudden? It's not about off nights...it's about nights off. How many games do dwyane wade and kobe bryant go without going to the free throw line?
> 
> anyway, the nets are going to lose tonight and washington's going to win...so i hope you enjoy your 4 games against the bulls.


His own fans started boing him during the season, I knew it was gonna be over sooner or later for Vince in toronto. Its all because he announced the trade in the summer. Its the raptors fault for not trading him when they should have.


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

arhie said:


> His own fans started boing him during the season, I knew it was gonna be over sooner or later for Vince in toronto. Its all because he announced the trade in the summer. Its the raptors fault for not trading him when they should have.


you shouldn't HAVE to trade any of your players.

exerpt from Simmons LVP to MVP article, says it all.



> 89. Jermaine O'Neal, Pau Gasol (tie)
> I like both of these guys as players. But when you're making max money, and you're the best guy on your team, you can't keep saying things like "Maybe it's time for me to move on" or "Maybe we'd be better off if I played somewhere else." You signed that contract and accepted the responsibility to be the franchise player on the team. Now that same franchise is struggling -- partly because of your inadequacies, by the way -- and you want to flee the premises like it's a crime scene?
> 
> I write this every year, and I'm writing it again: Just once before I die, I want an NBA owner to hold a news conference that will unfold like this:
> ...


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

arhie said:


> His own fans started boing him during the season, I knew it was gonna be over sooner or later for Vince in toronto. Its all because he announced the trade in the summer. Its the raptors fault for not trading him when they should have.


It's the Raptors' fault? Since when is a franchise responsible to meet every demand of its players? Vince is the guy that signed that max extension. Did anyone hold him at gunpoint? I don't think so. What is the point of signing a contract if a player can decide to leave whenever the hell he feels like it? 

Vince's stock dropped tremendously the last few years he was in Toronto due to his injuries. The Raps wouldn't be able to find equal value had they traded him at that time. If you look back at things right now, had Vince stayed and the Raps go through the short rebuilding process(would've been shorter had Vince stayed) and hired Colangelo, the future would be just as bright for the Raptors as right now. At worst he would be at where he is now, with an over-the-hill New Jersey team and looking for a new place after this season. It was Vince's mistake for his own career, and he dragged the Raptors down with him.

There was another thread in the main forum talking about whether Vince should be in the HOF. Well, I think even the most die-hard VC fans will agree that the way he handled himself in Toronto is not going to win him any extra votes when the time comes. If Kobe has a bad game, people will say that it's just a bad game. If KG has a bad game, people will say it's just a bad game. But if Vince does it, people will always question whether he's taking the game off. I guess that's the price you pay for tanking games during any part of your career.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Aurelino said:


> LOL, you take this stuff way too seriously. Where did I say that I was exposing YOU? I merely said what I think Borat is about. I did not say that because I have his avatar, I also propagate his philposphy in real life or on message boards.


Hmm... OK. Should of realized your not a real crap disturber like some others who visit here.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

arhie said:


> His own fans started boing him during the season, I knew it was gonna be over sooner or later for Vince in toronto. Its all because he announced the trade in the summer. Its the raptors fault for not trading him when they should have.


You are incredibly naive.


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## arhie (Jul 4, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> It's the Raptors' fault? Since when is a franchise responsible to meet every demand of its players? Vince is the guy that signed that max extension. Did anyone hold him at gunpoint? I don't think so. What is the point of signing a contract if a player can decide to leave whenever the hell he feels like it?
> 
> Vince's stock dropped tremendously the last few years he was in Toronto due to his injuries. The Raps wouldn't be able to find equal value had they traded him at that time. If you look back at things right now, had Vince stayed and the Raps go through the short rebuilding process(would've been shorter had Vince stayed) and hired Colangelo, the future would be just as bright for the Raptors as right now. At worst he would be at where he is now, with an over-the-hill New Jersey team and looking for a new place after this season. It was Vince's mistake for his own career, and he dragged the Raptors down with him.
> 
> There was another thread in the main forum talking about whether Vince should be in the HOF. Well, I think even the most die-hard VC fans will agree that the way he handled himself in Toronto is not going to win him any extra votes when the time comes. If Kobe has a bad game, people will say that it's just a bad game. If KG has a bad game, people will say it's just a bad game. But if Vince does it, people will always question whether he's taking the game off. I guess that's the price you pay for tanking games during any part of your career.


 But why aren't similar questions asked when other stars demand for trades. FOr example, AI wanted out, he got his wish (management didn't play him after that), Ron Artest wanted out ( management didn't play him after that), Chris Webber wanted out (management didn't play him after that), Tmac wanted out (he got traded immediately), Shaq wanted out (he got traded immediately), Vince wanted out (he had to wait it out, stay on a team he no longer wanted to, as a result didn't give 100% (its clear its obvious, anyone would do the same , but reducing his minutes, and field goal attempts made it look worse)). If you traded the guy in the offseason, raptor fans would hate him less than they do right now. THats a fact. 
But yes I would have loved to have the guy stay in raptors, and he did make a mistake by leaving. But again you can't force someone to play that doesn't want to be there. THats pretty much what the raptors did, they put a gun on Vince, and on themselves, and told him to go play. It doesn't work like that. Come on now, Vince wasn't getting any plays called for him or anything, his own fans booed him in the first game. It was all over. The damage was done by Vince in the offseason, even if wanted to change his mind, the fans would still boo him. 

Whose to blame:
1. Vince CArter (Yes he should have took it like a man).
2. Richard Peddie- SHould have hired a better Gm, like Bryan earlier, anyone not named Babcock.
3. Rob Babcock- pulled the worst traded in history- this was after saying we are not going to force anything that we will regret in the longrun. Hey who knows what would have happened, Vinc eusually does step up after the allstar game anyway. Maybe he would have started to try harder if no trade would have hapened. But regardless , any body can draft better than hoffa, and anybody can get more than Eric and Aaron Williams for Vince. The trade made the fans hate hime ven worse.
4. The fans- The fans didn't give him a chance in the start of the saeson. If they didn't boo him, maybe he would stay. His road averages in 04-05 were better than at home (while he played for the raptors).

5. His mom- nuff said.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

arhie said:


> But why aren't similar questions asked when other stars demand for trades. FOr example, AI wanted out, he got his wish (management didn't play him after that), Ron Artest wanted out ( management didn't play him after that), Chris Webber wanted out (management didn't play him after that), Tmac wanted out (he got traded immediately), Shaq wanted out (he got traded immediately), Vince wanted out (he had to wait it out, stay on a team he no longer wanted to, as a result didn't give 100% (its clear its obvious, anyone would do the same , but reducing his minutes, and field goal attempts made it look worse)). If you traded the guy in the offseason, raptor fans would hate him less than they do right now. THats a fact.
> But yes I would have loved to have the guy stay in raptors, and he did make a mistake by leaving. But again you can't force someone to play that doesn't want to be there. THats pretty much what the raptors did, they put a gun on Vince, and on themselves, and told him to go play. It doesn't work like that. Come on now, Vince wasn't getting any plays called for him or anything, his own fans booed him in the first game. It was all over. The damage was done by Vince in the offseason, even if wanted to change his mind, the fans would still boo him.


AI and KG didn't tank games in order to get traded. I never said players can't ask to be traded, but teams don't have to trade them just because they asked. AI tried to win the last season in Philly, Shaq tried to win in LA, C-Webb tried in Philly, even T-mac (though to a less degree than AI and others) had a valiant effort his last season in Orlando averaging 28 points while battling back problems. None of those players, with the exception of Artest, diminished his own trade value by actions done on the court. A player doesn't always have to announce that he's asking for a trade for teams to notice that the guy wants out. Just look at KG. KG hasn't officially said that he wants out of Minnesota, but any GM in the leagues knows that the guy wants out badly. It is one thing to lower your stock by forcing your team to trade you, it's another to purposely suck and/or fake injuries to get your way. If anything, playing to lose should be a shame for any professional athlete and any type of competitor in general. That was also a part lacking from VC during his last days. People doubted him as a competitor for tanking games. 

Reading your comments led me to believe that you did not watch much, if any of the games of VC's last days in Toronto. He wasn't just playing horribly, but it was the way that he played out those games. It was so blatant that he wasn't trying that it was affecting our teams already limited chances by having him out there. Nobody ever threatened VC, and don't even start by pointing the finger at Raptors fans. The Raptors fans gave more support to VC during his days in Toronto than the Nets fans can ever give. Even during the 2 years when VC was injured, the Raptors still sold over 90% of their tickets. Unlike the Nets even with VC healthy only sells about 80-85% on a good year. It is not even close.

Use some common sense. The amount of support that VC got from the Raptors fans over the years is only equal to a few boos at the end? I'm pretty sure the thought crossed VC's mind when he heard the boos. "Hey, they waited for me for 2 years to get healthy but now when I'm finally healthy, I'm going to dump them in order to go to a better team. While I'm at it, I'm going to do a bit more to make sure that the Raptors have a harder time recovering from my transaction. A couple dozen fadeaways from 22 feet should do the trick. Along with sharing some plays with the other team during the last minute of the game, that's got to do it. Hey, that's probably why they're booing me now." VC is not that stupid. If anything, he should have felt sorry to the fans instead of the other way around. To say the fans drove VC out of Toronto is just absurd.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

What always baffles me about the whole Toronto situation is the fact that Raps fans always seem to forget that Smitch was more concerned with giving the ball to Bosh? They had decided they were going a different direction. You bring up the fact that he 'tanked' for your team but yet never mention the fact that his possessions were reduced and his minutes were nothing compared to what he got when he went to Jersey. Honestly I still dont know why Rap fans boo Vince, your team is in better shape, why do you still hold grudges against a man that did more good than harm for your team


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

His minutes were cut because he didn't perform.

His shots were reduced because he wasn't making them. 

Pretty easy call from a coaching perspective.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

And arhie was absolutely right, a lot of people were already calling for Vince's head before he demanded that trade. Everyone knew that team had to be blown up to have the type of success it is having right now.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

shookem said:


> His minutes were cut because he didn't perform.
> 
> His shots were reduced because he wasn't making them.
> 
> Pretty easy call from a coaching perspective.


Or they could have just avoided all that and traded him when he asked for it during the summer, ample opportunity to get a good deal for him.


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## elsaic15 (May 24, 2006)

Mr_B said:


> Please :lol:



please what. facts are facts, and the fact is that 90% of the time raptors fan cite that interview as when vince admitted he dogged it, and he never did. if you want to go on being an ignorant raptors fan, be my guest


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

HB said:


> Or they could have just avoided all that and traded him when he asked for it during the summer, ample opportunity to get a good deal for him.


Since when was Vince Carter GM of the raptors?


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

HB said:


> What always baffles me about the whole Toronto situation is the fact that Raps fans always seem to forget that Smitch was more concerned with giving the ball to Bosh? They had decided they were going a different direction. You bring up the fact that he 'tanked' for your team but yet never mention the fact that his possessions were reduced and his minutes were nothing compared to what he got when he went to Jersey. Honestly I still dont know why Rap fans boo Vince, your team is in better shape, why do you still hold grudges against a man that did more good than harm for your team


looking back, can you honestly say that giving the ball to Bosh instead of VC benefitted the team in the long run?

genius move.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HB said:


> Or they could have just avoided all that and traded him when he asked for it during the summer, ample opportunity to get a good deal for him.


It was after 2 injury-plagued seasons. You call that a "good opportunity" to trade a max money player who had questionable knees?

Ignorant Raptors fans? I'm sure there are more than just Raptors fans that felt VC purposely stunk up the joint in order to get traded. He went from playing the worst basketball in his career in Toronto to playing the best that he's played since the injuries upon arriving NJ. I mean, who would be so paranoid?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Benis007 said:


> looking back, can you honestly say that giving the ball to Bosh instead of VC benefitted the team in the long run?
> 
> genius move.


That team was never going to win a championship, if they made the playoffs they were always going to be one of the bottom seeds. It had to be blown up. At least Vince was right about 1 thing, more competent management was needed to right the Raps ship. What teams are Babcock and Grunwald working for nowadays?


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

HB said:


> Or they could have just avoided all that and traded him when he asked for it during the summer, ample opportunity to get a good deal for him.


But they didn't. And he wasn't as effective of a player.

It doesn't matter if it was the GM or the player's fault, it wasn't the fans fault as they couldn't do anything but stand by and react. 

And here you are blaming them for reacting.


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

> That team was never going to win a championship, if they made the playoffs they were always going to be one of the bottom seeds. It had to be blown up. At least Vince was right about 1 thing, more competent management was needed to right the Raps ship. What teams are Babcock and Grunwald working for nowadays?


feed the ball to a malcontent, or feed the ball to a budding star?

Grunwald is a consultant for the Knicks, Babcock is the assistant GM in Minnesota.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

shookem said:


> But they didn't. And he wasn't as effective of a player.
> 
> It doesn't matter if it was the GM or the player's fault, it wasn't the fans fault as they couldn't do anything but stand by and react.
> 
> And here you are blaming them for reacting.


I am saying the booing is unwarranted considering most are going off a very edited TNT interview. But thats fine if the fans want to continue with that, like Vince said its extra motivation


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## arhie (Jul 4, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> AI and KG didn't tank games in order to get traded. I never said players can't ask to be traded, but teams don't have to trade them just because they asked. AI tried to win the last season in Philly, Shaq tried to win in LA, C-Webb tried in Philly, even T-mac (though to a less degree than AI and others) had a valiant effort his last season in Orlando averaging 28 points while battling back problems. None of those players, with the exception of Artest, diminished his own trade value by actions done on the court. A player doesn't always have to announce that he's asking for a trade for teams to notice that the guy wants out. Just look at KG. KG hasn't officially said that he wants out of Minnesota, but any GM in the leagues knows that the guy wants out badly. It is one thing to lower your stock by forcing your team to trade you, it's another to purposely suck and/or fake injuries to get your way. If anything, playing to lose should be a shame for any professional athlete and any type of competitor in general. That was also a part lacking from VC during his last days. People doubted him as a competitor for tanking games.
> 
> Reading your comments led me to believe that you did not watch much, if any of the games of VC's last days in Toronto. He wasn't just playing horribly, but it was the way that he played out those games. It was so blatant that he wasn't trying that it was affecting our teams already limited chances by having him out there. Nobody ever threatened VC, and don't even start by pointing the finger at Raptors fans. The Raptors fans gave more support to VC during his days in Toronto than the Nets fans can ever give. Even during the 2 years when VC was injured, the Raptors still sold over 90% of their tickets. Unlike the Nets even with VC healthy only sells about 80-85% on a good year. It is not even close.
> 
> Use some common sense. The amount of support that VC got from the Raptors fans over the years is only equal to a few boos at the end? I'm pretty sure the thought crossed VC's mind when he heard the boos. "Hey, they waited for me for 2 years to get healthy but now when I'm finally healthy, I'm going to dump them in order to go to a better team. While I'm at it, I'm going to do a bit more to make sure that the Raptors have a harder time recovering from my transaction. A couple dozen fadeaways from 22 feet should do the trick. Along with sharing some plays with the other team during the last minute of the game, that's got to do it. Hey, that's probably why they're booing me now." VC is not that stupid. If anything, he should have felt sorry to the fans instead of the other way around. To say the fans drove VC out of Toronto is just absurd.


First off I don't think you can read. Second of all I don't think you are aware of the whole Vince CArter situation. After his celebrity game in Toronto he officially wanted out. Not during the year, but in the offseason. And you say Carter didn't try, well, in 2003-04 he was healthy. He gave it his all after the allstar break when the team was 25-25. Where was the rest of the team. He average 25 5 5 the rest of the way after the allstar game. When he couldn't make the playoffs after having guys like Donyell Marshall, Jalen Rose, Chris Bosh, and Mo Peterson, when he was doing his best, I can understand his frustration. The ultimate slap in the face for him was that he saw the team was moving in the ohter direction. He obviously thought Bosh was more than a few years away, and he thought his time was now. Even Bosh didn't think he would develop this fast. For the injuries, how can you judge someone unless you are in their shoes? You cannot feel their pain, so don't even try, ok. After two years of injuries, Vince Carter played his best basketball in 2003-04 since 2001-02. Kevin O'neil said it best,"Vince is still a superstar,". Raptors fans , and management didn't feel the same way. Heck, maybe Vince didn't even feel the same way anymore. If you are continually put in a losing situation,and people constantly tell you , that you are a loser, you are eventually going to become a loser, its human nature. Talent wise raptors had the players to become better, no question. But you have to believe in yourself first of all. I doubt Vince was gonna listen to what Sam had to offer him. 

In all of Vince's years in Toronto they couldn't do two things
a) Find him a good point guard.
b) Find him a real big man: Sure Donyell Marshall, Antonio Davis, and even rookie Chris Bosh had their big games, but they weren't real big men. Like Rasho is a real big man. He helps take pressure off the wing players. Having someone like Magloore would have helped. 

It could have been Tmac+ VC duo for years but I guess it wasn't meant to be.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Benis007 said:


> feed the ball to a malcontent, or feed the ball to a budding star?
> 
> Grunwald is a consultant for the Knicks, Babcock is the assistant GM in Minnesota.


Yup only two of the worst managements in the league would keep those guys on board


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

HB said:


> Yup only two of the worst managements in the league would keep those guys on board


Maybe they will replace Rod Thorn when the Nets fall to 25 wins in about two years time.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

HB said:


> And arhie was absolutely right, a lot of people were already calling for Vince's head before he demanded that trade. Everyone knew that team had to be blown up to have the type of success it is having right now.


Vince tried to be GM, and then cried when the results of his moves sucked... cry me a river.... your the one that forced the GM to make the moves, now live with it.


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

HB said:


> Yup only two of the worst managements in the league would keep those guys on board


maybe not good teams, but both are still employed in the premier league in their sport.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

HB said:


> I am saying the booing is unwarranted considering most are going off a very edited TNT interview. But thats fine if the fans want to continue with that, like Vince said its extra motivation


Nah man, some cite that as a way of showing those who weren't here what was happening.

We were here. We saw it happen before our eyes. The interview is nothing and certainly not the reason why Raps fans boo Carter. We simply saw him give up. We had so much invested in him. It was like a teenage love affair, Vince was our everything, the sun and the moon revolved around him. As deep as the love ran, like teenage love, when the relationship soured the hate grew fast and fierce. I wish he was traded to the west so we wouldn't have to see the 'ex' every couple of months but unfortunatly in the small town that is the atlantic divsion, we are destined to constantly be remined of this saga from our metaphorical youth.

Sometimes people say that other players ask to be traded and don't get treated as poorly but Toronto was less than ten years old as a basketball market when Vince played here. Sports fans had guys like Doug Gilmore, Wendal Clark, Paul Molitor, Doug Flutie, Joe Carter, Carlos Delgado as sports hero's in the '90's. These true professionals made the sad reality of NBA cry babies that much more of a shock to the area's sports fans.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

JuniorNoboa said:


> Maybe they will replace Rod Thorn when the Nets fall to 25 wins in about two years time.


Is your disdain for the Nets simply because they employ Vince or does it run deeper than that?


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

cpawfan said:


> Is your disdain for the Nets simply because they employ Vince or does it run deeper than that?


Nets team bus ran over my puppy.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

JuniorNoboa said:


> Vince tried to be GM, and then cried when the results of his moves sucked... cry me a river.... your the one that forced the GM to make the moves, now live with it.


Carlos Boozer is the only player Vince could look down upon


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Benis007 said:


> Nets team bus ran over my puppy.


If you had kept him on a leash, that wouldn't have happened


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

arhie said:


> First off I don't think you can read. Second of all I don't think you are aware of the whole Vince CArter situation. After his celebrity game in Toronto he officially wanted out. Not during the year, but in the offseason. And you say Carter didn't try, well, in 2003-04 he was healthy. He gave it his all after the allstar break when the team was 25-25. Where was the rest of the team. He average 25 5 5 the rest of the way after the allstar game. When he couldn't make the playoffs after having guys like Donyell Marshall, Jalen Rose, Chris Bosh, and Mo Peterson, when he was doing his best, I can understand his frustration. The ultimate slap in the face for him was that he saw the team was moving in the ohter direction. He obviously thought Bosh was more than a few years away, and he thought his time was now. Even Bosh didn't think he would develop this fast. For the injuries, how can you judge someone unless you are in their shoes? You cannot feel their pain, so don't even try, ok. After two years of injuries, Vince Carter played his best basketball in 2003-04 since 2001-02. Kevin O'neil said it best,"Vince is still a superstar,". Raptors fans , and management didn't feel the same way. Heck, maybe Vince didn't even feel the same way anymore. If you are continually put in a losing situation,and people constantly tell you , that you are a loser, you are eventually going to become a loser, its human nature. Talent wise raptors had the players to become better, no question. But you have to believe in yourself first of all. I doubt Vince was gonna listen to what Sam had to offer him.
> 
> In all of Vince's years in Toronto they couldn't do two things
> a) Find him a good point guard.
> ...


But he is a loser, not a winner. It's not like the Nets have flourished with Carter. It isn't like he made them win championships. It isn't like they've been incredibly successful in the playoffs while having three superstars in Kidd, Jefferson and Carter. Think about how talented that 3 man squad is and yet they can't seem to come anywhere close to winning a championship
And the Nets still haven't provided him with a solid big man because in his prime Antonio Davis was of the same caliber as Nenad Kristic.
The fact is that Toronto realized two things:
a) You cannot win a championship with Vince Carter as a leader. He needs another superstar to handle most of the pressure for him. Ask Raptors fans and they'll tell you that Antonio Davis, Oakley and Alvin Williams were responsible for the leadership of the team and keeping it in check in order to win games. Vince was just the scorer, not the leader
b) Vince stopped caring because it was his fault that the Raptors were doing poorly and it was his fault that the cap situation was so bad. How do you explain going to the playoffs one year and then bottoming out until you go out with an injury and the team goes on a huge win streak to miraculously get the last playoff spot? 

He's just not a leader.
He's just not a winner.
He will either leave the Nets once his contract is up or the Nets will get fed up with it.
In the end, he doesn't get you the success he should be able to provide due to his skill set and talent.

p.s
Yeah Magloire is great help, I mean he's been blossoming ever since he signed that big contract. Good advice.


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## arhie (Jul 4, 2006)

SickGame said:


> But he is a loser, not a winner. It's not like the Nets have flourished with Carter. It isn't like he made them win championships. It isn't like they've been incredibly successful in the playoffs while having three superstars in Kidd, Jefferson and Carter. Think about how talented that 3 man squad is and yet they can't seem to come anywhere close to winning a championship
> And the Nets still haven't provided him with a solid big man because in his prime Antonio Davis was of the same caliber as Nenad Kristic.
> The fact is that Toronto realized two things:
> a) You cannot win a championship with Vince Carter as a leader. He needs another superstar to handle most of the pressure for him. Ask Raptors fans and they'll tell you that Antonio Davis, Oakley and Alvin Williams were responsible for the leadership of the team and keeping it in check in order to win games. Vince was just the scorer, not the leader
> ...


In response:
If hes not a leader I don't know how he kept this team afloat despite the fact of all the problems and injuries he had. Some leaders talk, some leader play. He does both. You say hes not a winner but his record was .500 every season in Toronto except for 02-03, 04-05. You say on NJ he hasn't had success, but hes had quite the success. After a win tonight he will be 
33-25 in 04-05 
49-30 in 05-06
41-41 in 06-07 that is a combined 123 96 56% over a course of 82 games that would result in an average of 46 wins. That sounds like winning to me. You guys don't watch him on a day to day basis, so don't judge. All you should be able to analyze is his stats, the typical observer is not a scout, or a coach, or even a college player. Look at the stats, the man is still great. Yes he had one bad year + 20 bad games on the raptors , but he still had 1+1+1+1+1= 5 good years on the raptors. And those bad seasons combined were what 43+20= 63 bad games. So he had 63/( 70 *5) = 18%. So he plays good 82% of the time while he was a raptor. 04-05 shouldn't have happened, it was not good for the world of sports. He should have been traded a) earlier, b) Denied the trade opportunity and let him ROT on the BENCH, UNTIL HE PLAYS HARD. 

In 04-05 , I don't care who you are , everyone knows VINCE WAS NOT GIVING IT HIS BEST. What people don't know, and don't care is why he wasn't trying his best. If his coach says he was professional, then Vince was professional.


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

^^^

tough to understand your logic, but a trade demand evident lack of effort, and allegations of sharing plays with opposing teams will put you into the bad books of the fans, even if he did "play good 82% of the time". he's a pro athlete, he's playing a sport and getting paid for it. you are getting paid to play, so play.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> Is your disdain for the Nets simply because they employ Vince or does it run deeper than that?


More Vince then anything. Although "SOME" nets / Vince fans annoy me as well.... if I had no exposure to them, I probably would not care.

The 25 win comment is more out of the element of a potential matchup. 

Although, in reality the only people that are in this thread are mostly Vince fanboys and there not the real Nets fans either,


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

arhie said:


> * You guys don't watch him on a day to day basis, so don't judge. *


You often like to judge Vince's relative worth to the rest of the league. Does that mean you watch more basketball then the rest of the us. Watch every game of every team?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Like I have been saying for a while now, a 47 win team should have no problems dispatching of a 40 or 41 win team. This loser Vince should be pretty much a non factor


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## arhie (Jul 4, 2006)

Benis007 said:


> ^^^
> 
> tough to understand your logic, but a trade demand evident lack of effort, and allegations of sharing plays with opposing teams will put you into the bad books of the fans, even if he did "play good 82% of the time". he's a pro athlete, he's playing a sport and getting paid for it. you are getting paid to play, so play.


You are right, I'm not saying the fans shouldn't boo him, all I'm trying to argue is that it shouldn't have ended the way it did.

Three factors: 1) Injuries and losing seasons caused Vince to lose a love for the game. 2) The management didn't help during times of crisis. 3) The management lost patience; Three coaches in three years is a little bit too much. Now contrast that with Bosh; in last three years, ONE COach. Now that helps. 

I think the players in 03-04 like Kevin O'neill, it wasn't necessary to fire him eihter. Richard Peddie is a marked man, I;m coming to get him.LOL.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

SickGame said:


> But he is a loser, not a winner. It's not like the Nets have flourished with Carter. It isn't like he made them win championships. It isn't like they've been incredibly successful in the playoffs while having three superstars in Kidd, Jefferson and Carter. Think about how talented that 3 man squad is and yet they can't seem to come anywhere close to winning a championship
> And the Nets still haven't provided him with a solid big man because in his prime Antonio Davis was of the same caliber as Nenad Kristic.
> The fact is that Toronto realized two things:
> a) You cannot win a championship with Vince Carter as a leader. He needs another superstar to handle most of the pressure for him. Ask Raptors fans and they'll tell you that Antonio Davis, Oakley and Alvin Williams were responsible for the leadership of the team and keeping it in check in order to win games. Vince was just the scorer, not the leader
> ...



By the way before you go ahead making comments like Vince isnt a winner, ask yourself what legit big man he has ever played with in his career. And please dont say Bosh, cause he sure as heck wasnt putting up allstar type numbers when the two were playing together. Now ask yourself this, in the last 10 or so years how many teams have won the NBA championship without legit BIGS. How many titles have guard oriented teams won in the last decade? Do you think Kobe is going to be winning a title soon, after all he is the best player in the league


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## arhie (Jul 4, 2006)

JuniorNoboa said:


> You often like to judge Vince's relative worth to the rest of the league. Does that mean you watch more basketball then the rest of the us. Watch every game of every team?


Sure why not. I try to watch as much league pass as time permits. Obviously I don't watch more in total than all fans put together. I watch quite a bit. But I do watch more Vince, Kobe, and the suns more than anyone else on here, for sure.


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## undefined_playa (Oct 23, 2005)

wtf is up with this thread...isn't it supposed to be about the potential matchup between the Raps and Nets?


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

The problem is more with fans' expectations. If you accept Carter for who he is: a top 5-7 player at his position who, from time to time, shows that he can be the best, then you won't be disappointed. Fans and critics expect him to be like Kobe or Wade but he is a different type of a player in terms of the mindset. I have come to accept Carter for who he is, as a player, just like I have accepted the fact that Jason Kidd is not a consistently good shooter or a scorer, even though he can catch fire and shoot 5/5 from 3pt range in a quarter.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by *undefined_playa !*
> 
> wtf is up with this thread...isn't it supposed to be about the potential matchup between the Raps and Nets?


surprise, surprise.....this thread is reduced to back and forth bickering about the inigma known as Vince Carter

*I don't think Nets fans can ever understand our disdain for Carter, and Raps fans will never understand those that defend Carter, so let's just agree to disagree and stop hijacking this thread*


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

HB said:


> That team was never going to win a championship, if they made the playoffs they were always going to be one of the bottom seeds. It had to be blown up. At least Vince was right about 1 thing, more competent management was needed to right the Raps ship. What teams are Babcock and Grunwald working for nowadays?


So when are the nets trading Carter? 

They're never going to win a championship with him, are you ok with him packing it in and waiting for a trade? At least Pau Gasol has played his *** off since asking for a trade. 

Look...nets fans can defend Carter's play with the nets all you want, but don't even dream of talking to us about cut minutes and giving the ball to bosh as an excuse for his play in his last season with the raptors.

Vince SUCKED before we traded him. Look at the deal we got for him. He didn't get to the line, he shot 40%...hell he couldn't even shoot free throws. If you can't begin your argument by accepting that vince carter quit on the raptors when he was being payed maximum dollars to be their star player, than your argument is worthless.

and we don't boo vince because of the stupid john thompson interview. we boo him because we know him.


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

HB said:


> Like I have been saying for a while now, a 47 win team should have no problems dispatching of a 40 or 41 win team. This loser Vince should be pretty much a non factor


glad we agree on something. 

too bad you guys are playing the bulls.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

HB said:


> I am saying the booing is unwarranted considering most are going off a very edited TNT interview. But thats fine if the fans want to continue with that, like Vince said its extra motivation


You need to settle on one story.

Earlier in the thread you said fans were booing him while he was here.

The JT interview was after he was traded... so how could most boo him because of that interview... you said the hatred existed before he left.

So what's the story?


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

this series will provide some interesting matchups....

*PG :*
TJ's speed will be a tough guard for Kidd, but TJ will also catch fits when he gets posted up by Kidd.

*SG :*
VC has had some up and down games against the Raps this year but I expect him to be at the top of his game, hopefully AP will atleast keep him honest on D making Vince work a bit

*SF :*
This is where the Raps don't matchup well with the strong athletic RJ, with Bargs only coming back possibly today I'm not sure how much production we will get out of this position? 

*PF :*
Bosh has been held in check by Collins and hasn't really had good games against NJ this year, the Nets aren't gonna get much outta Mikki Moore on offense, but he's an active player on the boards and will get his share of putbacks and garbage buckets.

*C :*
neither team has a dynamic center, but Rasho, being our most playoff tested player should provide some nice stability in the post.

*Bench :*
while the Raps have made thier mark this year with thier deep bench, the Nets bench will be a huge x-factor in this series, what the nets can get from the resurgent Boki Nachbar and rookies M.Williams and Josh Boone will go along way in determining the outcome.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

why do you guys even bother arguing with HB?

haven't you learned that it's pointless?


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

TRON said:


> I don't think Nets fans can ever understand our disdain for Carter,


There are some Nets fans that understand the disdain


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

crimedog said:


> So when are the nets trading Carter?


Why are you concerned?



> They're never going to win a championship with him, are you ok with him packing it in and waiting for a trade? At least Pau Gasol has played his *** off since asking for a trade.


With no legit BIG MEN, of course they wouldn't win a championship with him. Carter is not Jordan.



> Look...nets fans can defend Carter's play with the nets all you want, but don't even dream of talking to us about cut minutes and giving the ball to bosh as an excuse for his play in his last season with the raptors.


I'm a raps fan who watched VC's last 20 games......and he didn't tank any of the games was rather misused. I've had this discussion with speedythief 2 years ago. 



> Vince SUCKED before we traded him. Look at the deal we got for him. He didn't get to the line, he shot 40%...hell he couldn't even shoot free throws. If you can't begin your argument by accepting that vince carter quit on the raptors when he was being payed maximum dollars to be their star player, than your argument is worthless.


Raps coulda gotten a better deal from the knicks. It was widly reported at that time. Carter was misused by Sam Mitchel...I used to puke and swear at him everytime he takes a HOT VC off in the 1st quarter and sit him down till 2 minutes left in the second. 


> and we don't boo vince because of the stupid john thompson interview. we boo him because we know him.


Lie, most rap fans bring up that interview as evidence of VC tanking it...


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

TRON said:


> surprise, surprise.....this thread is reduced to back and forth bickering about the inigma known as Vince Carter
> 
> *I don't think Nets fans can ever understand our disdain for Carter, and Raps fans will never understand those that defend Carter, so let's just agree to disagree and stop hijacking this thread*


Dude, don't act like ALL raps fan share this "tanking" opinion about Vince. There are lotsa of raps fans including me who understand that he was never the problem.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

^ nope that wasn't my point, I do think VC dogged it and basically forced his way outta town....but that's beside the point

my point was that Nets and Raps fans have been arguing about this for over 2 years now, and it's kinda getting tired and should be put to rest


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

crimedog said:


> Frankly...what are you coming to our board trying to achieve?
> 
> Do you want us to say vince is a gritty competitor, who lays it on the line every game? As far as I'm concerned, vince's play in his last season with the raptors gives every raptor fan, if not every basketball fan, a perfectly legitmate reason to question his heart and effort on a nightly basis. Because if a player is willing to gear down like that and use such a low amount of his potential, why would we ever believe that he has decided to go full out every night all of a sudden? It's not about off nights...it's about nights off. How many games do dwyane wade and kobe bryant go without going to the free throw line?
> 
> anyway, the nets are going to lose tonight and washington's going to win...so i hope you enjoy your 4 games against the bulls.


I'm a raps fan, do you have problem with that?

I think you would see Wade go the line less after his shoulder injury. Kobe doesn't go to the line that many times, he mostly relies on jumper. Carter drives to the lane alot but most of the time doesn't get rewarded with FTs.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

TRON said:


> ^ nope that wasn't my point, I do think VC dogged it and basically forced his way outta town....but that's beside the point
> 
> my point was that Nets and Raps fans have been arguing about this for over 2 years now, and it's kinda getting tired and should be put to rest


Exactly.....

and it's mostly revolves around 3 things

1. quitter
2. no heart
3. loser


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## crimedog (Jun 3, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> I'm a raps fan, do you have problem with that?
> 
> I think you would see Wade go the line less after his shoulder injury. Kobe doesn't go to the line that many times, he mostly relies on jumper. Carter drives to the lane alot but most of the time doesn't get rewarded with FTs.


I kind of do, to be honest...but obviously you and I see Vince Carter very differntly. And obviously, I don't actually have a problem with it. You're free to cheer for whoever you wish, but for the sake of make believe world of message boards, ya i do.

I don't see how a Raptors fan could be a Vince Carter fan. I still love watching him when he's on and I think he's the best dunker the game has ever seen. But I think his play in his last 20 games showed a real lack of principle and character on his part. He just gave up.

I myself get frustrated with mitchell at times, but I fail to see how Mitchell made Vince shoot 41% and 69% from the line. 

I'm frustrated that you keep bringing the word 'tank' back into it. I never said he tanked. I take that to mean losing on purpose. I just don't think he gave it his all. 

I have one last question Air Fly...then I will not post in this thread ever again...unless it's about nets/raptors basketball. 

Have you ever thought Vince Carter wasn't trying his hardest on the basketbll court?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

JuniorNoboa said:


> You need to settle on one story.
> 
> Earlier in the thread you said fans were booing him while he was here.
> 
> ...


Reading comprehension buddy. Lol I said fans were booing him while he was there, really when? Are you going to tell me there werent fans on here saying Vince should have been traded during the O'Neill era. I am pretty sure I read quite a few threads on here before Vince demanded that trade that said the Raps werent going anywhere with Vince might as well get rid of him. Of course if you have proof of something different feel free to post it.


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## arhie (Jul 4, 2006)

For Vince its very easy to spot when hes giving it a 100% vs 60%. Very easy to spot. Raptor fans can say sure he tanked it in the first 20 games, but he already told them it was over before it started. Its his fault for saying that, but why blame the guy when he plays like **** when he already said hes not gonna try. Get rid of him, or rot him on the bench. Instead they made it worse for both sides by making him a semi focal point on offense, and giving him only 30 minutes per game. And his usage was the lowest of his career as well. Vince WAS NEVER good without the BALL, except for his first two years maybe. But since Lenny wilkens came hes been a pure halfcourt stand in one spot type of guy wihtout the ball. And when hes not trying, hes not asking for the ball, so its going to show up.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

TRON said:


> why do you guys even bother arguing with HB?
> 
> haven't you learned that it's pointless?


Find me where I said fans were booing Vince whilst he was playing for the Raps.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

crimedog said:


> I kind of do, to be honest...but obviously you and I see Vince Carter very differntly. And obviously, I don't actually have a problem with it. You're free to cheer for whoever you wish, but for the sake of make believe world of message boards, ya i do.
> 
> I don't see how a Raptors fan could be a Vince Carter fan. I still love watching him when he's on and I think he's the best dunker the game has ever seen. But I think his play in his last 20 games showed a real lack of principle and character on his part. He just gave up.
> 
> ...


That's a problem you need to deal with. Carter will remain my favorite no matter what, he's the sole reason i became a rap fan. You or anyone else can't take that away from me...

We'd never know if he didn't give it his all. What i saw was a frustrated Carter in his last 20 games here trying his best to please his coach and at the same time the thought of him getting traded was probably on his mind all these time. Carter is a rhythm player when he is not in rhythm he most of the time struggles. It happened couple of times with NJ this season. He need to get a touch of the ball occasionally something he wasn't able to do because Rafer was purposely ignoring him, plus the fact that Mitchel wasn't running many plays for him...and totally didn't care if he was HOT, he'd still bench him for the sake of ZOO CREW.

As for your question, NOPE --- I know he did/does struggle on some nights...


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## arhie (Jul 4, 2006)

Air Fly said:


> That's a problem you need to deal with. Carter will remain my favorite no matter what, he's the sole reason i became a rap fan. You or anyone else can't take that away from me...
> 
> We'd never know if he didn't give it his all. What i saw was a frustrated Carter in his last 20 games here trying his best to please his coach and at the same time the thought of him getting traded was probably on his mind all these time. Carter is a rhythm player when he is not in rhythm he most of the time struggles. It happened couple of times with NJ this season. He need to get a touch of the ball occasionally something he wasn't able to do because Rafer was purposely ignoring him, plus the fact that Mitchel wasn't running many plays for him...and totally didn't care if he was HOT, he'd still bench him for the sake of ZOO CREW.
> 
> As for your question, NOPE --- I know he did/does struggle on some nights...


Finally someone that has watched the first 20 games, making good observations.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

...


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

JuniorNoboa said:


> Don't accuse me of lack comprehension, your the one that is posting thoughts that have incoherent logic.
> 
> You are just proving my point here.... a) you said most fans boo Vince Carter because of the JT interview.... b)you said that fans booed him before he left (which is of course true). B) Is not mutually independent of A) - it's one or the other, can't be both. Do you understand that? Do you comprehend, buddy?. Do you not have basic logic skills? Are you really, really sure you want to call me out on my comprehension.





HB said:


> And arhie was absolutely right, a lot of people were already calling for Vince's head before he demanded that trade. Everyone knew that team had to be blown up to have the type of success it is having right now.


Which was a response to this



arhie said:


> His own fans started boing him during the season, I knew it was gonna be over sooner or later for Vince in toronto. Its all because he announced the trade in the summer. Its the raptors fault for not trading him when they should have.


Of which you replied



JuniorNoboa said:


> You are incredibly naive.


which you have misinterpreted with this



HB said:


> I am saying the booing is unwarranted considering most are going off a very edited TNT interview. But thats fine if the fans want to continue with that, like Vince said its extra motivation


So you are going to tell me that there arent people in the ACC that boo Vince that arent doing so because of what they saw in the media, or are you also going to deny the fact that people werent already asking for Vince to be traded before he asked for one.


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## Victor Page (Nov 1, 2006)

There is no such thing as the big 3 - and there really never was.

Jefferson is a wildly over-rated creampuff - if he ever was an elite player in the league (arguable),
he definitely isn't now. I'd almost take MoPete over him - I'd definitely take Anthony Parker ahead of him.
Fred Jones could finish fast breaks dishes from JKidd as well as RJ can. The guy is just irrelevant.

Jason Kidd is obviously an elite PG that has a lot of playoff experience. But he's lost a step - TJ and Jose
will expose him on defense. While I'd admittedly take JKidd over the Raps PG combo, the difference isn't
as great as you think (if this were JKidd circa 2001, then yes, the Nets would hold a huge advantage at the point).
It's only a slight advantage now - not worth losing any sleep over if you're a Raps fan.

VC is an elite scorer - there's no doubt about that. Raps fans know that he can't be counted on to bring his A game
4 times in a 7 game series. There is just no evidence over the last 6 years (or ever really) that indicates Vince has that kind of drive. He will undoubtedly get hot for 1-2 games which will give the Nets a good chance to take those (not a lock, just a good chance). 

The Nets are a sub .500 team - bottom line - and it's not by fluke. They are deeply flawed. It's an exaggeration to say the Raps will "run them off the court" - that almost never happens in the NBA (especially the Eastern conference). But the Raptors will consistently beat the Nets at both ends of the floor and win the series relatively easily.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

AirFly said:


> I'm a raps fan who watched VC's last 20 games......and he didn't tank any of the games was rather misused. I've had this discussion with speedythief 2 years ago.


Don't bring me into this. You were wrong two years ago and you are wrong now. Feel free to drag up game threads from then and count how many times he was called out in them.

But obviously you will attribute that to haters, anyways.

This discussion is closed because it can not stay on topic.


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