# What package for Kobe makes the most sense?



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Leaving aside all the obvious questions of actually getting ahold of him, what's favorable?



Ron Cey said:


> Or Gordon. In fact, moreso Gordon in my opinion.
> 
> Or both Gordon and Hinrich together, frankly. Conley/Bryant


I've thought about that myself. While it's been a continuing source of nervousnes for Bulls fans, I think it's very important to recognize that Hinrich is probably one of the better fits for Gordon in the entire league.

Trade Gordon without Hinrich and you've either got a completely lilipution backcourt (Jordan Farmar and Gordon?!) or you've got at best a real learning curve if you play Gordon at the point. And who do you play at SG next to him? Maurice Evans? Now I personally think Gordon can get it, but the reality is that's a committment that a team will have to make and suffer in the short term for, both on the court and in terms of uncertainty if he actually pulls it off.

A recurring theme, that I agree with, is that the Lakers are a star power driven team, not just a winning team. So who makes sense for them, a guy who's on TeamUSA or a guy who's most famous for not talking to the media and for making a stupid comment about the dunk contest.

See where I'm going with this?

From the Lakes perspective, I have a hell of a time seeing them get any kind of good return from the Kobe deal, but I think if I were them I'd much prefer Hinrich/Gordon to Gordon/Thomas

From our perspective, losing Hinrich is a pretty hard hole to fill, I think, because the point of getting Kobe is to win a title ASAP. Hinrich is a guy who's ready to be a starting part of a championship team immediately. Tyrus Thomas is probably not.

On the other hand, Chris Duhon becomes relatively more valuable playing next to Kobe. His scoring is less important, his relatively strong 3 point shooting ability (I know it's streaky, but on the whole, it's there), excellent court vision and high quality defense is more important. But is he a guy you can win a title with starting?

And there's the prospect of Conley. Personally, I think Conley is going to be a hell of a player, and exactly the sort of PG you'd want next to Kobe. But again, he's coming off his feshman year of college, and expecting him to be ready for a title run is a lot. And obviously there's a big question of whether he's available at #9. I seriously doubt he is.

I think it's asking a lot, but it's feasible that a Duhon/Conley combo at PG is good enough next to Kobe this year. 

So in short, I think the Lakers would prefer Gordon/Hinrich to Gordon/Thomas.

I think from a pespective of winning immediately, we'd prefer Gordon/Thomas in the deal rather than Gordon/Hinrich, but I think we'd still have a shot if we traded Gordon/Hinrich


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

I agree with every word. And I wouldn't hesitate to trade Hinrich/Gordon for Kobe. I'd take Duhon(Thabo)/Kobe(Thabo) over Hinrich/Gordon every time. Not to mention the possibility of Conley or a free agent point guard (admittedly, I have no idea who the free agent point guards are this summer or if there even are any).

Also, I'd prefer to do Hinrich/Gordon over Gordon/Thomas in a Kobe trade. Really. I really would.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

What about....Hinrich/Thomas. Thats the package that makes the most sense for the Bulls.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Excluding filler which I think includes Noce, I see the basis of the trade being:

Gordon and Hinrich or #9

I have full faith that Kobe won't be a Bull unless we win this trade in a landslide.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

As I posted in the big Kobe thread, that Pax said Deng and Tyrus are untouchable, I would have to agree with that. We have a weak frontcourt as it is, and you cannot get rid of those two. At 9 you get Conley if available or you trade down to get two extra picks and get Critt. (Assuming we trade our backcourt)


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## Nu_Omega (Nov 27, 2006)

Trading our starting backcourt for Kobe and depending on subs and rooks to fill Kirk's role don't seem like we're trying to win a title ASAP imho. 

Trading BG for Kobe is inevitable since they share the same position but i would really like to see a Kirk and Mamba backcourt. Kirk plays both ends of the floor, he had to guard bigger guards and was the only real ball handler among the starting 5 but with Kobe beside him, some of that pressure will be relieved and i bet he's gonna flourish more as compared to BG is with Kobe. I also don't think Pax will deal away 2 of the big 3.

And if Kirk and BG are both traded to the Lakers, won't they have the same problem as us to start with again? A small backcourt? BG, Noce and the #9 pick sounds about right.


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

Mebarak said:


> What about....Hinrich/Thomas. Thats the package that makes the most sense for the Bulls.


yeah and the laker would agree to do that? Your basically trading away a solid Pg, and an unproven player, for the best player in the game right now.


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## bre9 (Jan 8, 2006)

Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, and Ben Wallace is what it's going to take to get Kobe Bryant.


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

Loul Deng, Ben Gordan, #9 for Kobe


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

hmmm. why would LA take on Big Ben's contract?

I thought it was interesting, from yesterday a poster brought up that from the Bulls stand point, Deng and TT are untouchable. No mention of Hinrich and Wallace. 

Duhon can be a "Snow like" point guard. We can get a big with #19...( I would want that back) and look at guards in the second round. Or we could split MLE for a big and a guard. 

Thabo will play more minutes, not doubt. 

The trade from my point of view would have to be agreed to before the draft and finalized on July 15. Nocioni, Gordon, Hinrich, filler and #9 for Kobe and #19. I don't see Pax doing anymore than this. I would include Wallace, but again I don't see LA wanting his contract.


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

truebluefan said:


> hmmm. why would LA take on Big Ben's contract?


With them wanting Bynum to develop, I doubt they'll take Wallace.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> With them wanting Bynum to develop, I doubt they'll take Wallace.


Good point! I agree. For that matter if we are to believe the rumors, they want to trade Brown as well. they want Bynum to get serious playing time.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

How sure is Paxson of Thabo?

If any deal gets done for Kobe, Thabo is going to be the primary backup 2/3.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> yeah and the laker would agree to do that? Your basically trading away a solid Pg, and an unproven player, for the best player in the game right now.


Denver got AI for less.

Gordon is the guy the Bulls have to trade if they get Kobe. There's just no room for him on a team with Bryant.

Paxson was reported to have said that Hinrich is untouchable a few weeks ago. In the present context, I suspect that means he would be reluctant to trade him.

Although I think Duhon would fit nicely beside Kobe, rumors suggest that he is definitely more on the Bulls trading block than Hinrich.

You are right about Tyrus Thomas's current trade value. The Bulls should keep him if they like him, because other teams won't be offering much in trade for him.

I like the Bulls offer reported by ESPN : Gordon, Nocioni, Duhon, Khryapa, filler, a pick swap and a 2008 pick, because the core of the team is not gutted in the trade. Frankly that's about what Kobe is worth to the Bulls. Anything more, and the Bulls become LA east. No thanks.

What does LA get? They get a young sharp-shooter in Gordon, a lottery pick, two solid rotation players in Nocioni and Duhon, assets they use for depth or trade for a "star", and cap space that they can use to sign & trade for a free agent star in a year. I'm sure they'd rather have an all star, but they'll just have to go fetch one on their own or trade with someone else. Frankly, I think they would be better off with Gordon than trading several of the players and picks we offer for Pierce or Arenas -- but that's LA's decision.

The truth is that Bryant is only one player. He simply isn't worth two or three core players and/or a lottery pick to the Bulls. We'll be better off without him if that is the price.


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## bre9 (Jan 8, 2006)

why would pax want Big Ben 60 mil contract and Kobe 88 mil contract no room to pay others so wallace is going be included


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

McBulls - well put


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## bre9 (Jan 8, 2006)

McBulls said:


> Denver got AI for less.
> 
> Gordon is the guy the Bulls have to trade if they get Kobe. There's just no room for him on a team with Bryant.
> 
> ...


L.A. is not dumb there going to want Ben Gordon and Luol Deng


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Hinrich AND Gordon for kobe is a no no. We shouldn't deal two of: Deng, Gordon, Hinrich. LA is over a barrell on this thing and we shouldn't be shooting for becoming LA East.

ACE


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

McBulls said:


> What does LA get? They get a young sharp-shooter in Gordon, a lottery pick, *two solid rotation players in Nocioni and Duhon*, assets they use for depth or trade for a "star", and cap space that they can use to sign & trade for a free agent star in a year.


I just wanted to note something here with regard to Nocioni. I see him referred to often as a rotational player or a throw in. 

Andres Nocioni is a starting caliber small forward in the NBA. Indeed, he's a really good starting caliber small forward in the NBA. If he didn't have the misfortune of playing behind one of the premier young small forwards on the planet, he'd be putting up some remarkable numbers. 

Nocioni is a valuable asset.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

bre9 said:


> L.A. is not dumb there going to want Ben Gordon and Luol Deng



want in one hand and crap in the other and see what gets full first.

LA is NOT in the drivers seat here...

ACE


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

ace20004u said:


> Hinrich AND Gordon for kobe is a no no.


Why? I'd do that deal and wouldn't think twice about it.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

bre9 said:


> L.A. is not dumb there going to want Ben Gordon and Luol Deng


Yes they will. Doesn't mean they will both now does it? Remember we don't have to trade for Kobe. We are in nice shape the way we are. It would have to help us in order for us to help L.A.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

bre9 said:


> L.A. is not dumb there going to want Ben Gordon and Luol Deng


And Pax is definitely not that dumb either


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Why? I'd do that deal and wouldn't think twice about it.



I wouldn't and don't know why anyone would. We don't have to. Gordon, Noce, #9, Sweetney and a future 1st should get it done.


ACE


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Kobe isn't coming to Chicago unless we clearly win this deal. It serves us no point. Excluding the #9 pick, and with internal development, we are good enough to make the ECF. 

Kobe only helps if we get him cheap. Otherwise we can hope the #9 pick turns out into a solid player and maybe we get lucky and get KG if he opts out


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

bre9 said:


> L.A. is not dumb there going to want Ben Gordon and Luol Deng



Wow. Hard to argue when faced with this many facts. Don't know where to start...


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I agree with Ace. I think Gordon and #9 is enough to get Kobe *IF *they are set on trading him.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

ace20004u said:


> I wouldn't and don't know why anyone would. *We don't have to. Gordon, Noce, #9, Sweetney and a future 1st should get it done.*
> 
> 
> ACE


You can't possibly know that. 

With all due respect to McBulls, you, and others expressing this "we don't have to give up more than bargain basement prices" - I think you guys are wronger than Wrongy Wronginson.

LA is not without leverage. They can call Bryant's bluff. 

Moreover, I have a problem with refusing to do a deal because you could hypothetically get it done for less. You think. Maybe. 

Certainly a team should attempt to get the best possible deal. But there comes a time in team building when only 1 question matters: Does the deal improve our team? If the answer is yes, then you do the deal and piss on the possibility that if you hold out for another couple of months the price will theoretically, you hope, go down. And this is especially so when the opportunity cost is the best basketball player on Earth.

Even excluding the possibility of drafting or signing another point guard, a three guard rotation of Duhon/Kobe/Thabo blows Hinrich/Gordon/Thabo out of the water. Ultimately, that is the only thing that matters.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm with you Ron Cey that I'd do Kirk and Ben for Kobe. But I think that or Ben and #9 is the most I would go. I would throw in Thabo with Ben, and #9 if needed. 

So my final 'core' pieces of the trade 
Ben and Kirk
Ben and #9, and Thabo if absolutely needed


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## bre9 (Jan 8, 2006)

theanimal23 said:


> I agree with Ace. I think Gordon and #9 is enough to get Kobe *IF *they are set on trading him.


Haven't you heard LA want a Star in return not a young short SG and a unproven player. These trade ideas are just crazy.


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## bre9 (Jan 8, 2006)

Vintage said:


> Wow. Hard to argue when faced with this many facts. Don't know where to start...


They might be trading Kobe Bryant the league best player what do you expect you have to give up good players for the guy.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

bre9 said:


> Haven't you heard LA want a Star in return not a young short SG and a unproven player. These trade ideas are just crazy.


I would then tell LA to follow DeGeneration X's Motto 

:lol: :lol: Like LA is going to win ANYTHING soon. They know they need to rebuild. No team is giving up a 'superstar' for Kobe. Whats the point of getting Kobe? It'd be a LATERAL move AT BEST.

Thats the sad thing. Lakers Management and Lakers Fans can't accept that they are in the dreaded middle. You are not in the position Chicago or Cleveland is in. Nor are you in the position that Portland is in. They will be in the middle wasting away the best talent in basketball because they were foolish to think Andrea Bynum was going to be a good player.

The Bulls mean more to me than a Superstar, unlike the majority of Lakers, eerr Kobe fans where Kobe means more than winning. 

I only want Kobe if we can pair him with this lineup Kirk-Kobe-Deng-Tyrus-Ben, otherwise they can have a crappy two more years.

If we stay the course we could come out of the East as early as next year. Screw LA.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

You know, up to this point, I've considered Wallace as an absolute non-option to include in a Kobe trade because it just didn't make a lot of sense to me to get Kobe and then trade away our only high quality frontcourt player. If we get Kobe, the idea is to start having a real chance to win titles, starting with this coming season.

To get to that goal, we'd be relying a lot on Wallace, at least on paper. But that's not without risk. If Wallace is the healthy, happy rebounding machine Ben Wallace, that's what makes the most sense too.

But was Wallace that guy even last year? What I saw was that he was still a quality player, but his decline continued pretty clearly. There were several stretches where he was almost a complete non-factor, he very often didn't get a lot of lift on his jumps and he looked slow getting up the court. His back looks like it might be a chronic problem.

And if that continues to be the case, maybe we'd be better off moving him and figuring out another way to address the size issue. Maybe if we move him we'd get to keep the #9 pick and get Noah.

In that case, you can try and figure what the odds are of getting (enough) immediate help via the draft and free agency vs. the odds of Wallace in practice being close to Wallace in theory. And of course, if you include Wallace, maybe you don't have to include another guy, like Hinrich?

The other thing to consider is that the Lakers might actually want Wallace. Again, the Lakers are a somewhat more moderated form of the Knicks. Star power is relatively more important issue for them and salary is a somewhat less important issue for them compared to most teams. Wallace's much awarded history would be an asset in saying they got something from the divorce.

I dunno, just thinking it out.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

I think Chicago has the leverage, more than L.A. does.

Kobe wants out. He's made a public stink about it. He's got the veto power. He's made it clear that there's only three teams he'll want to go to and only one is in the East.

Chicago has the players and the talent, but they've also been successful and have a lottery pick and the MLE to deal with. They have young talent and might not be willing to go down the road of Miami, trading almost all the young talent to have only two superstars in a flare-up championship followed by a first-round exit.

Chicago also will pitch it's logic: we can't trade the entire team for Kobe. Because the current rhetoric is coming from Kobe's side and the pressure is really more on Lakers' management, Chicago won't come up with something that's considered "fair value". At best, Chicago will put in the 2008 first round pick and other intangible considerations that can't be measured accurately, so that the deal has variable value.

I think this is a deal after some negotiating:

Kobe Bryant + Ronny Turiaf

for

Ben Gordon, Andres Nocioni S&T, Chris Duhon, the 2008 and 2009 first rounders, and salary filler to be waived (Sweetney, Khyrapa, etc.)


Duhon
Gordon
Nocioni
Odom
Bynum

We're giving them three starters and two first-rounders. Duhon is the best point guard on that roster, Gordon the best scorer, and Nocioni the most natural small forward (but with his time pretty evenly split with Luke Walton, who is legitimately decent). The bench has good assets like Kwame, Vujacic, Evans, Farmar, Mihm, VladRad. This year's draft pick should be a decent player; the team will probably stink for a while but then over the next two years they can build through the draft. I think this team can probably sniff the playoffs as it stands, in any event.

For us, we have Kobe, Hinrich, and some serious youth assets:

Hinrich
Kobe
Deng
Tyrus
Wallace

with Thabo, Turiaf and the #9 filling in the rest. Kobe will finally have a roster that doesn't have a ton of holes (Tyrus is probably the weakest link and Turiaf will help with that). There's not as much depth; if Deng gets injured, or Kobe, or Hinrich, we're sort of in some trouble. But canny vets will sign up with our team, the clear favorites out of the East with this roster, for the minimum. I wouldn't mind seeing The Glove as the backup PG.

Heck, if we went really crazy, I'd love to see us take a shot at Grant Hill coming off our bench.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

OMG Showtyme, that would be hella good from the Bulls side. If Pax can somehow pull that off, wow!

That honestly could be the start of a small championship run

You'd have to make that an 08 and 10 first rounder. I think they would want 9 while they give us 19


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Grant Hill??? Well, he has made his money. He would have to accept mle or less.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Don't just pitch in Nocioni. Remember, this was the clearcut #2 guy on our team last year behind Ben Gordon. Most of us were shocked last year when Skiles said that Deng would be the starting small forward over Nocioni. This guy is a guy worth keeping around.

If the deal happens before the draft, and Boston is the 3rd party, I expect the trade to be.

Bulls Trade:

Ben Gordon
Ben Wallace

Bulls Receive:

Kobe Bryant
Kendrick Perkins

Lakers Trade:

Kobe Bryant

Lakers Receive:

Ben Wallace

Celtics Trade:

Paul Pierce
Kendrick Perkins

Celtics Receive:

Ben Gordon
Ben Wallace

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2381~885~2018~662~110&teams=2~2~4~13~4


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Showtyme said:


> I think Chicago has the leverage, more than L.A. does.


I agree that Chicago has more leverage. That isn't what I'm saying. What I'm seeing is a lot of talk suggesting that the Lakers essentially have no leverage and have to trade Bryant. That simply isn't the case. 



> I think this is a deal after some negotiating:
> 
> Kobe Bryant + Ronny Turiaf
> 
> ...


Come on. Gordon and none of TT, Hinrich, Deng, or even the #9 pick? And the Lakers have to ADD Ronny Turiaf? No way they do that. 

No way they can sell that to their fans. "We got Ben Gordon, Chicago's back-up small forward, their backup point guard, and two late first round picks in the future." 

It would be infinitely easier for them to sell:

"We were disappointed in Mr. Bryant's trade demand. We tried to accomodate him but, ultimately, the available offers would have set this team back too significantly for us to move forward. We simply could not do that to the fan base in good conscience. We can only hope that Mr. Bryant will honor the terms of his contract, honor the fans of this great franchise, and continue to play with the energy and committment to winning we are accustomed to until different arrangements can be made, if at all. We hope that during the interim, Mr. Bryant will realize that we are very committed to building a champion, and that he will decide to remain a Laker for life where he is valued and respected." 

They don't HAVE to trade him. Does anyone actually think Kobe will sit out? I certainly don't. And if he did, the consequences to his image and his place in history would be swift and severe. He'll suit up.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Bill Simmons three team deal that includes Boston. 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070620

Actual trade:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/featur...3047~2417~110&teams=2~2~13~13~2~2~13~4~4~13~4


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> I agree that Chicago has more leverage. That isn't what I'm saying. What I'm seeing is a lot of talk suggesting that the Lakers essentially have no leverage and have to trade Bryant. That simply isn't the case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes he will. But I think its a virtual certainty that they lose him for nothing in 09.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> Bill Simmons three team deal that includes Boston.
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/070620
> 
> ...


I actually would reject that trade.

I consider Deng and Tyrus Thomas as close to untouchable as we have on the bulls roster.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

The Krakken said:


> I actually would reject that trade.
> 
> I consider Deng and Tyrus Thomas as close to untouchable as we have on the bulls roster.



+1


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

I am for keeping Thomas. We are thin up fron the way it is.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> I am for keeping Thomas. We are thin up fron the way it is.



No kidding.

We have Wallace, Thomas, and then........?

Allen isn't quality. Neither is Griffin. Is PJ Brown coming back? There is a reason we are looking for depth at front. Trading Thomas is going to take the only prospect we have up front. Losing the 9th pick is going to trade whatever prospect we might get up front. Unless we can be guaranteed someone in free agency, I am very leery of moving a front court player right now (in a deal that might come close to matching Kobe's value).


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

That Bill Simmons trade makes ZERO sense.

If John Paxson already rejected Gordon for Pierce, why would he have to send Tyrus and Thabo over to convince a GM who already tried to get Gordon using Pierce, to trade Pierce and get back Gordon?


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

Mebarak said:


> That Bill Simmons trade makes ZERO sense.
> 
> If John Paxson already rejected Gordon for Pierce, why would he have to send Tyrus and Thabo over to convince a GM who already tried to get Gordon using Pierce, to trade Pierce and get back Gordon?


Is it fact that Ainge tried to use Pierce to get Gordon?

I kind of stopped posting here for awhile and missed out a lot the past year or so...


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Interesting trade proposal.

I'm not 100% confident that we end up a better team, but then again, this leaves us with a perimeter core of Hinrich/Kobe/Deng. Might be the best 1/2/3 trio in the league, and plus we'd still have Ben Wallace and our #9 pick (potentially Noah). Hmmm.

This would be a no-brainer for Boston to make though. Giving up Pierce and fillers, while getting back a proven 20-point scorer, plus 2 high-upside players who both might be starter capable already. Not to mention a proven NBA point guard in Duhon. Ainge better be all over that if he's even halfway competent.

I'm skeptical if the Lakers would do it though. Kobe is a clear notch above Paul Pierce (age and contract status is nearly equal, so that's not a factor). The other stuff they get back is relatively worthless, IMO. I guess it's better than putting up with Kobe's non-sense and standing pat, but still.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Vintage said:


> Is it fact that Ainge tried to use Pierce to get Gordon?


No, it isn't. If it is, and I'm wrong, I'm sure Sloth will provide links to the articles describing Paxson's refusal to trade Gordon for Pierce.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

I kinda like the thought of seeing 24 and 7 being together. 24/7. There's a nice psychological, aesthetic unity to that. I think it would work better than people think.

Imagine that: KB24 and BG7, two guys who go by their initials and jersey numbers as if they were one acronym.

But anyway, if we got rid of both Kirk and Ben for Kobe, I'd be slightly relieved that we'd (presumably) finally stop these sectarian ideological divisions between board posters on our preferred guards. It's been going on since J-Will, and he and Jamal haven't been here in 4 years. 

I wonder if a trade like that would be the official death of jib and right way controversy within the Bulls and this message board. It would also be interesting to see how people who have supported Skiles and Paxson, specifically because of their "right way" tactics, would think of the regime after the trade.


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## WhoDaBest23 (Apr 16, 2003)

Gordon, S&T Nocioni, filler, and picks. Only 1 of the core should go in a trade involving Kobe and Gordon makes the most sense. His trade demands are getting bigger, I don't think the Lakers will be able to get close to equal value for him even thought they think they should. It's just not going to happen.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

The 6ft Hurdle said:


> I wonder if a trade like that would be the official death of jib and right way controversy within the Bulls and this message board. It would also be interesting to see how people who have supported Skiles and Paxson, specifically because of their "right way" tactics, would think of the regime after the trade.


Whats really interesting is the misunderstanding of what the "right way" advocates believe in. 

Kobe Bryant understands the game, is a two-way player, and busts his *** to win. That, my friend, is the right way to play basketball.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

The 6ft Hurdle said:


> I kinda like the thought of seeing 24 and 7 being together. 24/7. There's a nice psychological, aesthetic unity to that. I think it would work better than people think.
> 
> Imagine that: KB24 and BG7, two guys who go by their initials and jersey numbers as if they were one acronym.
> 
> ...


To be honest, I never could understand why it was so controversial to look for people who play "the right way"...

But then there's that division "thing" starting up all over again.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

The 6ft Hurdle said:


> I kinda like the thought of seeing 24 and 7 being together. 24/7. There's a nice psychological, aesthetic unity to that. I think it would work better than people think.
> 
> Imagine that: KB24 and BG7, two guys who go by their initials and jersey numbers as if they were one acronym.
> 
> ...


CD21 > KB24


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## Wishbone (Jun 10, 2002)

Mebarak said:


> CD21 > KB24



allright now you're just bein' silly :clown:

how bout this: In a Bulls uniform, I'd still rather see - TT24 than KB24


honestly, the whole Kobe a Bull thing in and of itself gives me a headache. As great of a player as he is, I'd have a hard time rooting for him. We as Bulls fans would demand nothing less than Hall-of-Fame level performance from Kobe night in night out, from game one of the season on through the playoffs.
If you thought Kobe got chastized for his on-court performance over the last couple years (i.e. whenever he *wasn't* dropping 81 points) it would be absolutely nothing compared to what he'll face up to from the media playing in Chicago. Jordan aside -- the expectations he would have to do more than just put the team over the hump would be impossible to attain.

In short - I think we'd be setting him up for failure. Even if some deal in swung in which the Bulls *do* maintain a significant chunk of the core, anything less than multiple consecutive championships will be looked upon as a bust. maybe not a complete and total bust, but a bust for sure


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Ron Cey said:


> Kobe Bryant understands the game, is a two-way player, and busts his *** to win. That, my friend, is the right way to play basketball.


And maybe he'll want to wear 7 himself :biggrin:


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

^ That doesn't get old


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

Gordon would definitely be in the deal. On the Bulls, his style would clash with Kobe's. Plus, they play the same position and Gordon would not be good at PG since he lacks the playmaking. Anyways, Hinrich is the _perfect_ backcourt mate for Kobe. He can play D, and he doesn't need to dribble a lot, allowing Kobe to control the ball as much as he wants. Last, Hinrich would play off of Kobe well, since Kobe would drive and kick to him.

Deng would have to be included, or else there'd be a HUGE disparity in talent. The Bulls are trading for arguably the best player in the world. Anyways, Nocioni is a better fit next to Kobe because his 3 point shot is much better, and he could space the floor for Kobe. Though Deng is much better and talented, Nocioni is more of a gritty defensive player. 

Salaries would have to match as well. Wallace doesn't make sense, since the Lakers don't want his huge contract, and the Bulls need him and his defense/rebounding to make a title run. P.J. Brown makes a lot of sense. He would make the salaries match and he is an expiring contract. Losing him doesn't mean much to the Bulls anyways.

So it would be Gordon, Deng, and Brown for Kobe. Assuming the #9 pick is use on Hawes (best pick, he has size and can score in the POST), this is what the Bulls would look like.

PG- Kirk Hinrich, Chris Duhon
SG- Kobe Bryant, Adrian Griffin
SF- Andres Nocioni, Thabo Sefolosha, Viktor Khryapa
PF- Ben Wallace, Tyrus Thomas, Malik Allen
C- Spencer Hawes, Mike Sweetney

That seems like it would be a great defensive team, with Ben anchoring the D, Nocioni guarding the premier swingmen, Hinrich locking down his man, and Kobe playing actual 1st Defensive Team defense.

If the package I mentioned earlier is not enough, then I guess the #9 would have to be put in.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

As I've posted many times before...

Superstar deals are usually identical. They include a borderline All-Star, a proven third option, cap relief, and one or two first round picks.

The Sixers didn't even get that much for Iverson. Shaq, you know, one of the most dominant centers ever fetched Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Brian Grant, and a low 1st round pick. Butler averaged 10 a game that year. Odom was the 2nd leading scorer behind Eddie freaking Jones. Wade was the guy everybody knew was going to be good. 

From the Bulls perspective, I lowball the Lakers first.

Gordon
Duhon
#9
P.J. Brown

Eventually, the most I consider offering is...

Ben Gordon(21.1 ppg)(4.9 mil)
Andres Nocioni(15.5 ppg)(3.75 mil/7.5 mil)
#9 Pick(2.7 mil)
Viktor Khryapa(1.9 mil)
Total Incoming: 19.5
Total Outgoing: 13.25(15.6 to make it work)

for

Kobe Bryant(19.5)
Total Incoming: 17.0
Total Outgoing: 19.5

Now because of Nocioni's BYC status which turns Noc's 7.5 outgoing into 3.75 million the Bulls need to swing about 3.25 to another team. With Duhon on the block and fallen out of favor with PaxSkiles we could easily swing Duhon to Atlanta for a future 2nd round pick.

So...

Bulls receive:
Kobe Bryant
#19 Pick
2nd Round Pick

Lakers receive:
Ben Gordon
Andres Nocioni
Viktor Khryapa
#9 Pick
2008 1st Round Pick

Hawks receive:
Chris Duhon

Hawks get their point guard. Lakers get the normal package for a superstar issuing trade demands, and the Bulls get Kobe and a lower 1st rounder to add a backup point guard or another player in the post.

Either way, if I'm Paxson the most, the absolute apex I'd consider is Gordon, Nocioni, and Tyrus with the Bulls getting Turiaf back.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Yeah...about trading Deng and Gordon for Kobe....we'll just stick with what we have already.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> Yeah...about trading Deng and Gordon for Kobe....we'll just stick with what we have already.


Oh my God! We agree. Notice how the Lakers didn't get Wade and Odom for Shaq. Or the Magic didn't get Yao and Francis for T-Mac. Or the Sixers didn't get Miller and Camby for Iverson. I suppose Kupchack is arrogant enough to think he could fleece Deng and Gordon from us, but I'm confident Paxson won't bite. Hell, I'd turn to the Pacers and see what it would take to get Jermaine O'Neal or the Grizzlies and Gasol or the Blazers and Randolph. Of course, if it comes to that Deng and Gordon aren't going anywhere.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Mebarak said:


> Yeah...about trading Deng and Gordon for Kobe....we'll just stick with what we have already.


I'm pretty strongly against that as well. But is it not fair to look at it this way:

The gap between Kobe and Gordon is significant. 

The gap between Deng and Nocioni/Thabo (I'm predicting small forward by committee) is not so significant as the gap between Kobe/Gordon.

Therefore, the result for the Bulls is a net positive even with Gordon/Deng heading to tinseltown. 

Fair and reasonable or shallow and stupid? Why?


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> I'm pretty strongly against that as well. But is it not fair to look at it this way:
> 
> The gap between Kobe and Gordon is significant.
> 
> ...


Hold up.

There is a lack of understanding here.

The gap between Kobe this year, and Gordon this year, is pretty big.

But the gap between Kobe of next year, and Gordon of next year, will not be that big, if be there at all.

Ben Gordon, will average 25 PPG and 5 APG next year as a Bull (and this is his floor for next year.) He will be an allstar next year.

The gap is suddenly not that big.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Mebarak said:


> Hold up.
> 
> There is a lack of understanding here.
> 
> ...


the gap between kobe and gordon will be wide until kobe hits his downside. kobe is simply one of the best players of all-time (top 20, 30 at worst), and gordon is a potential all-star.


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

Mebarak said:


> Yeah...about trading Deng and Gordon for Kobe....we'll just stick with what we have already.


Coming from the guy who thinks Gordon and Deng will both end up better players than Kobe.



T.Shock said:


> Shaq, you know, one of the most dominant centers ever fetched Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Brian Grant, and a low 1st round pick. Butler averaged 10 a game that year. Odom was the 2nd leading scorer behind Eddie freaking Jones. Wade was the guy everybody knew was going to be good.


You've just proven my point. Deng and Gordon = Butler and Odom.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

shaq wasn't going to fetch as much because he was a short term prospect. the team getting him knew they were mortgaging their future to win now. kobe can be the face of a franchise for another 8-10 years. if i'm the bulls, i try and keep deng, hinrich and thomas and everyone else is expendable. you then have at least 3 big pieces to a contender, and fill in the blanks from there. if push comes to shove, you make hinrich expendable as well and try and get a potential piece (pick, bynum, brown) back as well.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

LamarButler said:


> Coming from the guy who thinks Gordon and Deng will both end up better players than Kobe.
> 
> 
> 
> You've just proven my point. Deng and Gordon = Butler and Odom.


Ben Gordon= 21.4 PPG on 57.2 TS%, 3.6 APG

Luol Deng= 18.8 PPG on 56.0 TS%, 7.1 RPG

Coming off that season that they got traded after......


Lamar Odom= 17.1 PPG on 51.6 TS%, 9.7 RPG

Caron Butler= 9.2 PPG on 44.0 TS%, 4.8 RPG

Yeah...exactly the same thing.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

theanimal23 said:


> ^ That doesn't get old


Of course, he could request his current number.


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## Snake (Jun 10, 2007)

Mr. T said:


> Of course, he could request his current number.


^ I see Eddy Curry is playing his usual world class defense.


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## Snake (Jun 10, 2007)

LamarButler said:


> Coming from the guy who thinks Gordon and Deng will both end up better players than Kobe.
> 
> 
> 
> You've just proven my point. Deng and Gordon = Butler and Odom.


Lakers also took on Brian Grant's salary, who they're still paying btw.

Just pointing out that they got less for Shaq than what we're offering.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Snake said:


> Lakers also took on Brian Grant's salary, who they're still paying btw.
> 
> Just pointing out that they got less for Shaq than what we're offering.


shaq's market value was less.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Mebarak said:


> Hold up.
> 
> There is a lack of understanding here.
> 
> ...


The gap is and will be colossal. You're out of your mind. Ben Gordon is a borderline All-Star type player, Kobe Bryant is arguably the best player in the NBA. I can see not wanting to give up Deng and Gordon for Kobe but the idea that Gordon and Bryant are comparable players is just nuts.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

I have said it before and I will say it again, the only 2 packages that really makes sense for both teams.

package 1 :

Ben gordon
Tyrus thomas
08 pick
SnT PJ brown and fillers for salary purpose

starting line up:
Kirk
Kobe
Deng
no.9pick and FA
wallace

Package 2:

Loul Deng
Ben Gordon
Snt PJ brown and fillers

Starting line up:

Kirk
Kobe
Noc
Tyrus
Wallace

there's no way in hell the Lakers are going to give up Kobe for just Gordon and changes. and Ben wallace won't be involved in the trade because it makes zero sense for both teams unless a 3rd team is involved.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Mebarak said:


> Ben Gordon= 21.4 PPG on 57.2 TS%, 3.6 APG
> 
> Luol Deng= 18.8 PPG on 56.0 TS%, 7.1 RPG
> 
> ...



LOL Yeah Exactly

The Lakers traded away a Caron who turned into a very nice player. But he wasn't great COMING to LA. 

You won't find many better young Duos in the league than Deng and Gordon, especially scoring potential.

Odom is one of the most overrated players I believe. Solid, but never had the mental strength to become that #2 guy. I don't know how he had that one very solid year at Miami. The guy is a VERY good 3rd option, but is far from ideal as your 2nd option.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

LamarButler said:


> You've just proven my point. Deng and Gordon = Butler and Odom.


I would've owned you but sloth beat me to it.



Mebarak said:


> Ben Gordon= 21.4 PPG on 57.2 TS%, 3.6 APG
> 
> Luol Deng= 18.8 PPG on 56.0 TS%, 7.1 RPG
> 
> ...


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## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

Call my crazy but if the deal is based on Gordon, Thomas, #9 and fillers you have a heck of a core in Hinrich/Kobe/Deng/Wallace. I would think that team is the favorite to win the East almost regardless of who you sign or trade for at the 4 spot.


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

Mebarak said:


> Hold up.
> 
> There is a lack of understanding here.
> 
> ...


It sickens me to say this, but Kobe is better than Gordon by a HUGE margin. Gordon is strictly a scorer. Kobe can have an off day and still put fear in the oppositions heart that he may still have an explosion. He isn't a liabilty on the defense either and in addition he can play multiple positions on the offense and on the defensive end. People talk about well his getting old, but his still IN HIS PRIME and will continue to be in his prime up until roughly 33-34 years of age, which means he still has arguablly half a decade of total dominance left plus some.

But i still hate Kobe and i don't want him on this team. But comparing Kobe with Gordon is like comparing a bicycle to a moterbike, sure both will get you from A to B, but which would you prefer?


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## Snake (Jun 10, 2007)

Sith said:


> package 1 :
> 
> Ben gordon
> Tyrus thomas
> ...


I'd hate to see TT go but that team would be damn good. Noc and an MLE big would play PF. Noc's 3 point shooting would help spread the floor for Kobe to drive to the basket. The new big would probably have to be a good rebounder as IMO that's would be what this team needs most. Maybe we could draft Noah if TT is gone as we wouldn't have to worry about their styles clashing, though I don't know if he'd be available at 9.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> I just wanted to note something here with regard to Nocioni. I see him referred to often as a rotational player or a throw in.
> 
> Andres Nocioni is a starting caliber small forward in the NBA. Indeed, he's a really good starting caliber small forward in the NBA. If he didn't have the misfortune of playing behind one of the premier young small forwards on the planet, he'd be putting up some remarkable numbers.
> 
> Nocioni is a valuable asset.


Exactly. But LA doesn't know this. So it makes my head hurt when I see people including him trades and assuming he has value.



Mebarak said:


> Ben Gordon= 21.4 PPG on 57.2 TS%, 3.6 APG
> 
> Luol Deng= 18.8 PPG on 56.0 TS%, 7.1 RPG
> 
> ...


I think the difference is that Shaq was 33 at the time, was chronically out of shape, and had 2 prime seasons left. Kobe is 29, in great shape, and has 5 - 6 prime seasons left.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Ron Cey said:


> And I wouldn't hesitate to trade Hinrich/Gordon for Kobe. I'd take Duhon(Thabo)/Kobe(Thabo) over Hinrich/Gordon every time.


The penguin backcourt.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

LOL @ Mr T's pics


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

The more I think about it, the more a Hinrich + Gordon + Wallace package for Kobe makes sense. Hinrich has a decent reputation around the league so I can see the Lakers accepting him rather than Deng. And it's not terribly difficult to find small, capable guards.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

I think more people in this tread should actually mention trades that work within the current CBA. This "I'd trade Gordon and Deng for Kobe" talk is fine and all, but how? Gordon, Deng, and Wallace for Bryant and Radmanovic? At least that trade is a possibility.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> I think more people in this tread should actually mention trades that work within the current CBA. This "I'd trade Gordon and Deng for Kobe" talk is fine and all, but how? Gordon, Deng, and Wallace for Bryant and Radmanovic? At least that trade is a possibility.


I think a P.J. Brown sign and trade is inherent in any deal involving just Deng and Gordon.

I'm with Ron. If the Lakers ask for Hinrich and Gordon, pull the trigger. I actually suggested this when this Kobe talk started largely because ditching Hinrich's big contract allows us to re-sign Nocioni and extend Deng to a near max deal without Uncle J's luxury tax concerns.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

T.Shock said:


> I think a P.J. Brown sign and trade is inherent in any deal involving just Deng and Gordon.


What have any of us seen out of PJ that would suggest he would want to play for a team that is going to struggle to make the playoffs next year?

To all of you who think PJ is going to accept some sign and trade: I hope you're right, but I think you're nuts.

By the way, in July, this trade works:

Hinrich, Gordon, Thabo, Griffin, Khryapa for Bryant

This assumes, however, that Kobe is willing to drop any trade kicker that we might have to pay.

Duhon
Kobe
Deng, Nocioni
Thomas
Wallace


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> What have any of us seen out of PJ that would suggest he would want to play for a team that is going to struggle to make the playoffs next year?
> 
> To all of you who think PJ is going to accept some sign and trade: I hope you're right, but I think you're nuts.
> 
> ...


The team getting PJ would probably just cut him, and then PJ would sign with the Spurs and win a championship. Either way he wins a championship. If he stays in Chicago, he will win one. If he gets traded in a Kobe trade and cut, and signs with the Spurs he will win one.


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## Big J (Jul 29, 2005)

You trade Ben Wallace and Loul Deng and you get Kobe Bryant. Ben Wallace could play power forward (which is his more natural position if you ask me anyway) and let Andrew Bynum start at center. Lamar Odom and Loul Deng at starting forwards. Then Jordan Farmer & Smoosh Parker share minutes at point with Luke Walton being their 6th man. Lakers wouldn't have a bad team at all, and missing Kobe would be minimal.

On the other hand the Bulls have a solid core in Kirk Hinrich, Kobe Bryant, & Andres Nocioni. A rumor is floating around that the Bulls may pick up Drew Gooden, so there is their starting PF. Then package Ben Gorden to get a nice big man. I hear Marcus Camby is on the trading block. This is all speculation, but if the Bulls could ship out Deng, Gorden, and Wallace to pick up Kobe, Camby, and Gooden... they better do it.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Big J said:


> You trade Ben Wallace and Loul Deng and you get Kobe Bryant. Ben Wallace could play power forward (which is his more natural position if you ask me anyway) and let Andrew Bynum start at center. Lamar Odom and Loul Deng at starting forwards. Then Jordan Farmer & Smoosh Parker share minutes at point with Luke Walton being their 6th man. Lakers wouldn't have a bad team at all, and missing Kobe would be minimal.
> 
> On the other hand the Bulls have a solid core in Kirk Hinrich, Kobe Bryant, & Andres Nocioni. A rumor is floating around that the Bulls may pick up Drew Gooden, so there is their starting PF. Then package Ben Gorden to get a nice big man. I hear Marcus Camby is on the trading block. This is all speculation, but if the Bulls could ship out Deng, Gorden, and Wallace to pick up Kobe, Camby, and Gooden... they better do it.


They shouldn't trade Gordon for Camby.

The Nuggets were trying to give away Camby for Kwame Brown, but the Lakers cheapskate owner didn't want to bring Camby in because he had 3 years left on his deal compared to Kwame's 1. Camby can be had cheap. You don't trade your best player (well 2nd best player if we have Kobe on board) for Marcus Camby.


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

Mebarak said:


> Ben Gordon= 21.4 PPG on 57.2 TS%, 3.6 APG
> 
> Luol Deng= 18.8 PPG on 56.0 TS%, 7.1 RPG
> 
> ...


You didn't include assists, where Odom was averaging 4 compared to Deng's 2. Odom's stats were better than Deng's stats now.

Caron was injured that year and in his rookie season when he actually played, he averaged 15, 5, 3 and 2 steals a game. That's pretty much equal to Gordon's stats now. Gordon scores more but doesn't really do anything else. Caron is an above average defender while Gordon is below average.

As I said before, pretty equal.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Mebarak said:


> The team getting PJ would probably just cut him, and then PJ would sign with the Spurs and win a championship. Either way he wins a championship. If he stays in Chicago, he will win one. If he gets traded in a Kobe trade and cut, and signs with the Spurs he will win one.


So you're saying PJ Brown is the difference in the Spurs or the Bulls winning the championship? :yay:


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Mr. T said:


> So you're saying PJ Brown is the difference in the Spurs or the Bulls winning the championship? :yay:


No, if the Bulls make a Kobe trade, then the Spurs will win it. If the Bulls don't make a Kobe trade, the Bulls will win it.


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

Mebarak said:


> They shouldn't trade Gordon for Camby.
> 
> The Nuggets were trying to give away Camby for Kwame Brown, but the Lakers cheapskate owner didn't want to bring Camby in because he had 3 years left on his deal compared to Kwame's 1. Camby can be had cheap. You don't trade your best player (well 2nd best player if we have Kobe on board) for Marcus Camby.


Get your facts straight and don't make up stuff. 

The Nuggets laughed at our offer when we offered Kwame...

http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_6048315



> Word is the Nuggets laughed at the Lakers last week when they called dangling butter-fingered big man Kwame Brown for Marcus Camby.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

Eternal said:


> Get your facts straight and don't make up stuff.
> 
> The Nuggets laughed at our offer when we offered Kwame...
> 
> http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_6048315


Thank you.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Mr. T said:


> The penguin backcourt.


If I could make it my avatar, I would. But where's Thabo? :biggrin:


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Mebarak said:


> The team getting PJ would probably just cut him, and then PJ would sign with the Spurs and win a championship. Either way he wins a championship. If he stays in Chicago, he will win one. If he gets traded in a Kobe trade and cut, and signs with the Spurs he will win one.


So if we don't trade for Kobe, we're winning the championship. If we do trade for Kobe, San Antonio will win the championship.

That's funny considering you think we can play hardball and get Kobe for scraps. Of course it's convenient to your "argument," so carry on.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

LamarButler said:


> You didn't include assists, where Odom was averaging 4 compared to Deng's 2. Odom's stats were better than Deng's stats now.
> 
> Caron was injured that year and in his rookie season when he actually played, he averaged 15, 5, 3 and 2 steals a game. That's pretty much equal to Gordon's stats now. Gordon scores more but doesn't really do anything else. Caron is an above average defender while Gordon is below average.
> 
> As I said before, pretty equal.


Odom was also 25, shot a lower percentage, and turned the ball over twice more a game. So guess what those two assists end up being cancelled out by two more turnovers. Listen, Gordon and Nocioni (who averaged 15 and 6 this year and whose number look awful similar to Caron Butler's pre-injury) is the max package here. I'd consider Gordon and Hinrich, but have to think long and hard about it. Gordon and Deng is a no go. Lakers are the team that got thrown under the bus, not the Bulls.


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