# Week 11 Game Thread



## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

Lots of good match-ups this week in conference play...

Baylor loses to K-State in the battle of the 2 disappointing Big 12 teams. PITT falls to ND at home. with that said, a post i wrote last year during the BE tourney...



> As a PITT fan, I need to vent...
> 
> Just caught the PITT game and i am beyond mad, what the **** was the game plan to win this game for Jamie Dixon. The man has done a great job this year, but he blew this one...BAD.
> 
> ...


aside from the Ashton Gibbs not getting shots part, tonight was the same ****!!! ridiculous that a year and 3 games against them later...i have the same ****ing argument. Frustrates the hell out of me.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

That was a huge win for ND, a statement win if you will. Brey coached teams don't beat top 5 teams on the road like that. 

I think this could be Brey's best team yet. I mean they have beaten teams like Pitt, Wisconsin, Georgia, Gonzaga, Georgetown and UConn already. They have a relatively soft stretch coming up in the Big East these next 4-5 games. If they can win 4 of these next 5 and sneak a win in against Villanova, UL or UConn to end the year they could get a top 4 finish in the Big East. This is a dangerous team, maybe not a title contender, but they are a legitimate sweet 16 level team, which is unheard of at ND.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Notre Dame is a very good team for sure, and definitely the best Mike Brey has had. Kind of crazy because I literally do not know a single player on the team.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> Notre Dame is a very good team for sure, and definitely the best Mike Brey has had. Kind of crazy because I literally do not know a single player on the team.


Ben Hansbrough? Tim Abromatis? They have some good players.


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## xu95 (Apr 5, 2003)

I turned off the game at halftime. I can't believe ND came back. As for today, I am looking forward to the Purdue-OSU game.

xu95


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

I am shocked. Never saw this coming. Seton Hall up 22 in the dying second at Syracuse.

Seton Hall hit some beyond lucky threes to start the game to take a 10 point lead. I figured the Cuse would claw at the lead and take over in the second half. But instead Seton Hall totally dominated play after that start.

Scoop Jardine is a piece of ****.


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## FSH (Aug 3, 2002)

Syracuse is D..O..N..E

Fab Melo is a bum having no Big Guy to help Jackson and Joseph has killed this team...We have great wings but no Center = A Huge Problem just like it was last year when AO got hurt


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

Just caught up on the UGA/UF game. Wow what a game. tough tough road victory for my Gators (that UGA crowd was going bananas). Thompkins is a load and the Bulldogs are physical as hell. Never ceases to amaze me the way T.Leslie jumps out the gym. Boynton/Parsons/Walker played like the back court they're supposed to be.. I think that was one of the best efforts from Florida so far this season. 

Time to see how the hell Ohio State trounced Purdue like that...


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

JuniorNoboa said:


> I am shocked. Never saw this coming. Seton Hall up 22 in the dying second at Syracuse.
> 
> Seton Hall hit some beyond lucky threes to start the game to take a 10 point lead. I figured the Cuse would claw at the lead and take over in the second half. But instead Seton Hall totally dominated play after that start.
> *
> Scoop Jardine is a piece of ****.*


Why u say that, JN? did he play like a bonehead? 

And i got to agree somewhat with FSH, they're missing that second big..they need Fab Melo to come along faster. Dude got sat early against PITT and barely got any burn after.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

The biggest thing for Ohio State now is they have a reliable Point Guard in Craft. I played AAU against that kid never thought he would be doing all this, but it's cool to see. As long as he keeps managing the game like he has, Ohio State is going to be a tough out.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

bball2223 said:


> The biggest thing for Ohio State now is they have a reliable Point Guard in Craft. I played AAU against that kid never thought he would be doing all this, but it's cool to see. As long as he keeps managing the game like he has, Ohio State is going to be a tough out.


Yeah, I thought, like many, their biggest hole to fill would be at the PG position and major ball handler since ET did all of that and more for them last year...Didn't think Craft would do such a good job but you're right, he's a big reason for ease into success. Also, their defense has been outstanding and they barely foul which is impressive.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

bball2223 said:


> The biggest thing for Ohio State now is they have a reliable Point Guard in Craft. I played AAU against that kid never thought he would be doing all this, but it's cool to see. As long as he keeps managing the game like he has, Ohio State is going to be a tough out.


Is he good? I was at a bar and concentrating much more on a girl, so I didn't seize my opportunity to check out tOSU.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

From what I've seen he's done a surprisingly good job running the offense. He's averaging damn near 5 assists per game, and shooting pretty good from deep, which is what the doctor ordered to have Sullinger beast down low. He just has to cut down on some of the t/o's but i mean he is a freshman..
'


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## bpurc22 (Jan 3, 2011)

Wow Syracuse..didn't see the game (was watching Georgia-Florida) but I am not surprised, if a team shoots well against the zone and Cuse is lackadaisical in it, they will get beat. It's just surprising that they didn't pound SHU on the offensive side. I am still big on Syracuse and I think they will be an Elite 8 or Final 4 team.

As for Florida....I was impressed a little bit. They played the full 1st half without Chandler Parsons. Erving Walker carried them toward the end. I just can't see them going that far with two guards under 6'1 or whatever. They showed a lot of durability and their next game @ Mississippi State will show how well they can compete in the tourney IMO. 

Also, their game against Kentucky will be huge to see if they can beat talent. They already beat Tennessee, KSU, and Xavier so I don't know if it's that much of a question, but they have shown huge problems scoring.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Rather Unique said:


> From what I've seen he's done a surprisingly good job running the offense. He's averaging damn near 5 assists per game, and shooting pretty good from deep, which is what the doctor ordered to have Sullinger beast down low. He just has to cut down on some of the t/o's but i mean he is a freshman..
> '


This.

He is more of a true point guard, but I think he has a similar career to Jamar Butler.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

Michigan trying to close out Michigan State on the road..currently up 2 with 1 minute left.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

Michigan holds on and beats Michigan State. They did it with the 3 ball (Zack Novak knocked down 6) and lead guard Darius Morris played well. Timmy's son shot terribly but ended with 10 points..

Michigan State couldn't get enough help tonight for Lucas. This team has really fallen off rebounding...The past 2 or 3 years they've been monsters on the offensive glass, it's just not happening this year. Early turnovers also hurt. Not a good loss for Sparty


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## Bubbles (Nov 12, 2005)

Overrated coming into the season. The next two weeks they have games on the road at Wisconsin and OSU. This team is getting dangerously close to being left out of the NCAA Tourney.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

oh man, the Illini fell to the Hoosiers...Jordan Hulls can shoot the rock, 18 points tonight, he's really helping IU get better. Not a good loss for the Illini they now also have 4 losses in conference. Big 10 teams beating each other up...


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Quite Frankly said:


> Overrated coming into the season. The next two weeks they have games on the road at Wisconsin and OSU. This team is getting dangerously close to being left out of the NCAA Tourney.


They really aren't good. They were getting blown out by Wisconsin and came back from like 11 points down in the last minute to win in OT. Wisconsin NEVER makes mental mistakes, and we are literally the BEST, the #1 team in the country at not turning the ball over and FT shooting, so it was as flukey of a comeback as you'll ever see. It was basically on Bo for having Rob Wilson in there instead of Josh Gasser, but whatever. So that's all but a loss as well. MSU just isn't very good, and for the record neither is Illinois. The best teams in the Big Ten are: 1) tOSU 2) Wisconsin, 3) Purdue, 4) Minnesota and 5) just might be Penn State, but honestly none of the other teams are worth mentioning.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

one hell of a game! Mickey Mcconnell hits the GW for St. Mary's against Gonzaga on the Zags home floor with 2 seconds left. Gonzaga drops its 3rd in the WCC, tied for their most ever. McConnell just took over in the final 3 minutes..Zags fan's head is exploding somewhere..

factoid: the Zags have lost only one previous conference game on their home floor. Big win for the Gaels.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

Nimreitz said:


> They really aren't good.


they certainly have the talent to be tho..I think that's why its been so disappointing for those 2 squads. Lucas/Summers/Green and Mike Davis/McCamey/Richmond/Richardson/Paul, both teams got some talent..


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Bruce Weber isn't an elite coach, just plain and simple. I hate to say it because I always thought he was excellent, but he's good-not-great. Izzo is a maniac with short man syndrome rivaled only by Napoleon, but he's a good coach when he's not crying about Bo Ryan taking him to the woodshed time after time. Kalin Lucas is not the same player after the injuries and Korie Luscious was just never that good (his recruiting hype peaked in 8th Grade, and he was MSU bound very early in the process... and now he's kicked off the team). That's all they have at point guard really, and then throw in the fact that this team is nowhere near as tough as the prototypical Izzo team with rebounding, and you're going to have a rough year. They'll recover, it just might take a year or two.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

no doubt they sure have their weaknesses but they do have some talent is all i was gettin at.

Btw Lucas looked good today, seems like he's getting some of that explosiveness back off the bounce. (only been 8 months since the injury). Either way both teams, as of now, are heading the wrong way, and the Ls are starting to pile up..

And maybe a little harsh on Bruce, i wouldn't say elite per say, but the poor guy has some soft ass bigs for the past few years..they're a bad rebounding team.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

just wrapped up the MSU/Vandy game..boy if Jeff Taylor was more aggressive the kid could be BIG time. Also, he should work on his deep ball a bit, he's gotta good stroke if he can get to hover around 40% (currently at 35%) he'd be one tough guard. MSU sagged off him a lot tonight as i seen some teams do. Jenkins was blanketed all night and STILL ended up with 21..the dude can get shots, period. 

props to Kevin Stallings too, he threw everything at Miss St. in the 2nd half, 2-3 zone, 2-2-1 press worked like a charm. 


Oh and Retardo Sidney is still outta shape, getting in foul trouble, and not a whole lot effective inside.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Rather Unique said:


> no doubt they sure have their weaknesses but they do have some talent is all i was gettin at.
> 
> Btw Lucas looked good today, seems like he's getting some of that explosiveness back off the bounce. (only been 8 months since the injury). Either way both teams, as of now, are heading the wrong way, and the Ls are starting to pile up..
> 
> And maybe a little harsh on Bruce, i wouldn't say elite per say, but the poor guy has some soft ass bigs for the past few years..they're a bad rebounding team.


I think Weber is a good coach and good enough to not get fired at a school with relatively high expectations like Illinois. He's just not great. Even his run in 2005 was with Bill Self's kids and at some point all these 5th place Big Ten finishes have to mean something. I think arguably he's better than Thad Matta, but he is no where close to that top line with Izzo, K, Howland (although he's really confusing me now), Bo Ryan, Calhoun, Boeheim, and I'm dangerously close to throwing in Jamie Dixon. I guess you have to throw Billy Donovan in there too.

No Huckleberry. He's not an elite coach. His coaching career began with a silver spoon in his mouth. He's a more fortunate Thad Matta.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

If these last years have proven anything, it is that you don't count out Michigan State before they are down and out. Although I also agree, it would take a lot to turn this around and if they don't start playing with much more intensity and focus, they might have to win the Big 10 tournament just to get to the NCAA tourney. Maybe they really lost a bit of an edge when Izzo was close to accepting the Cavs opening in the summer.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Outside of a three minute stretch against Wisconsin, MSU hasn't looked like a good team all season. You keep assuming they will turn it around, but when you watch them play they look nothing like the teams from the last two seasons. 

It's really baffling. You look at all the things they struggle with and can't do this year, and they weren't problems for the team last year with basically the same group of players.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Nimreitz said:


> I think Weber is a good coach and good enough to not get fired at a school with relatively high expectations like Illinois. He's just not great. Even his run in 2005 was with Bill Self's kids and at some point all these 5th place Big Ten finishes have to mean something. I think arguably he's better than Thad Matta, but he is no where close to that top line with Izzo, K, Howland (although he's really confusing me now), Bo Ryan, Calhoun, Boeheim, and I'm dangerously close to throwing in Jamie Dixon. I guess you have to throw Billy Donovan in there too.
> 
> No Huckleberry. He's not an elite coach. His coaching career began with a silver spoon in his mouth. He's a more fortunate Thad Matta.


You would throw Bo Ryan in the top of the line category? He has never been to the final four. I think he is a great coach, but the elite level is for those guys who can get it done in the tourney too.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Bo does more with less. He won 61 games in two seasons with Alando Tucker for 1 year (who isn't and really wasn't that good), Kammron Taylor as his point guard, and probably Brian Butch as the next best player. People who don't consider Bo Ryan a great coach have vastly overrated the talent of the players at Wisconsin. In fact, 2008 may have been the best coaching job in the decade, winning 31 games with Butch and then Sophomore Trevon Hughes as the only PG. Crashed out to Davidson, but when Steph Curry gets hot what are you really going to do?

2005 was pretty good too, they won 25 games and played UNC really close in the Elite 8 with sophomore Alando Tucker, sophomore Kammron Taylor, and Mike Wilkinson as the 3 best players.


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## bpurc22 (Jan 3, 2011)

More on Bo Ryan...it's tough for him to win in the tourney of course. He is able to control home court so well but when you try to execute that game plan on a neutral site with 20,000 random fans in the stands and a bunch of teams playing their absolute best, it's going to be hard to win on a neutral site. I would throw Bo Ryan in there as a top-5 coach right now without any final fours. Last year I think they had a terrible draw with Cornell, who probably should have been an 8or9 seed, and I had Wisconsin in my Final4. I think they will have that type of success this year. Jordan Taylor is good enough to score on his own yet control a game's pace. There are so few PGs that can do that.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Good? Yes
Top 5/Elite? No way

So his game plan not working on a neutral court is supposed to grant him some sort of pass? Get out of here with that garbage. His teams overachieve in the regular season, they generally do not make much noise come tourney time. I would much rather have a coach who gets his teams playing their best come March (i.e. Izzo), than a coach who wins in the regular season and is usually out by the end of the first weekend of the tournament. If Bo Ryan is an elite coach so is Mike Brey. I mean his teams always overachieve in a far tougher conference (year-in and year-out) and he also never makes much noise come tournament time. His system also allows him to win a ton of home games, but is not very successful on a neutral court. Maybe I'm missing something here, I mean Ryan is a really good coach, but we must have complete opposite views on what makes a coach elite.


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## bpurc22 (Jan 3, 2011)

Well if you call a coach elite only if he wins National Champions, idk then. I don't think you can honestly look at Izzo this year and say he is an elite coach. He returned a full group of players with so much talent, more experience, and an All-American in Appeling and he has struggled mightily this year. They look terrible and they just don't play well and that all comes back to the coach.

And on Ryan - I never said it "granted him some sort of pass." I meant that yes, his teams historically haven't been great on the road or on neutral courts but so what...a lot of success in road games and tournament games comes down to straight talent and athleticism and when you have mid-major type talent, it's hard to expect a coach to win national championships. Let's get real, Michigan State's talent is out of the roof compared to Bo Ryan's in the recent future.

Look at his history at Wisconsin
Season....... Team..... Overall. Conference.. Standing.	Postseason
2001–2002 Wisconsin 19–13 11–5 T–1st NCAA 2nd Round
2002–2003 Wisconsin 24–8 12–4 1st NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2003–2004 Wisconsin 25–7 12–4 T–2nd NCAA 2nd Round
2004–2005 Wisconsin 25–9 11–5 3rd NCAA Elite Eight
2005–2006 Wisconsin 19–12 9–7 T–4th NCAA 1st Round
2006–2007 Wisconsin 30–6 13–3 2nd NCAA 2nd Round
2007–2008 Wisconsin 31–5 16–2 1st NCAA Sweet Sixteen
2008–2009 Wisconsin 20–13 10–8 T–4th NCAA 2nd Round
2009–2010 Wisconsin 24–9 13–5 4th NCAA 2nd Round

While he may not be a top-5 coach (maybe a bit steep, but definitely "premier", he's a damn good coach, and he sure as hell coaches his teams to greater success than what he should achieve.

9 seasons at Wisconsin - Elite 8, 2 Sweet 16s, 5 Second Rounds, 1 First Round exit

I know National Championships and Final 4s are what every college basketball athlete/coach are judged by, it just seems like you're undervaluing how good he is for how mediocre he gets.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Mid-major type talent? :laugh:

Jon Leuer is averaging 19/7 while boasting shooting percentages of 49% from the field, 83% from the line and 47% from 3. Taylor is averaging 17 points a game, with pretty damn good shooting percentages and a 4:1 A/TO ratio. Nankivil is one of the best shooters in college basketball. The depth of talent may not be at the Duke, Kentucky level, but he has some really damn good players. He may not get brand name recruits or his players might not get the recognition they deserve at times, but get out of here with he does not have any talent or "MSU's talent blows his out of the water." 

If he does not have the talent then he better start recruiting better. Wisconsin has put out 4 or 5 top 100 quality guys the past few years, should have kept some of that talent home. If his coaching style does not win road or neutral games he needs to switch/adapt it. 

I like Bo as a coach, but he is not an elite coach. There is nothing wrong with that and I'm not dissing him at all. He is firmly on that second tier (good-even great coaches), but until he comes up big in March he won't be on that elite level. That's how I view it, I put a high premium on coming through when it matters most in all sports. To each his own though.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Also like to add that in the Tournament it only takes one off night from your team, or one exceptional night from a lesser team, and you're out. Or just bad luck with injuries. In 2007 Wisconsin went 30-6 and were the only team to beat Ohio State in the conference (and to be honest, they should have swept them and shared the conference title, but poor Kam Taylor couldn't make his free throws and Mike Conley made a great shot to win the game), but also in that game against tOSU Brian Butch was injured. Butch meant a ton to that team, and a team that was by far the most talented Wisconsin has ever seen went out to UNLV after looking very shaky against some directional Texas team in the first round. 2005 similarly was a great team that went to the Elite 8 and played UNC very tight, that was also the team that would have had Devin Harris' senior year. They've also had a few mid-majors just refuse to miss any shots against them (Cornell and Steph Curry).

Anyway, the Tournament is luck. Izzo has very good luck, but ask Coach K how much an 8 year stretch in the Tournament should determine how we think of a coach. If you ask me if I'd rather have Coach A who has made like 5 Final Fours in the last Decade or Coach B who hasn't made any, I'd take Coach A all the time. But if you ask me if I'd rather have Bo Ryan or Tom Izzo in a particular job, I'd say Bo Ryan.

And as far as mid-major type talent and Bo keeping some guys in state... I assume you're talking about Vander Blue and Korie Luscious? Were those really guys that would have taken Wisconsin to the next level? I personally think they would have seen a LOOOOOT of time on the bench. Wisconsin has been lucky to have some very good players, but they were never top recruits, and behind the best 1 or 2 players on the team it's usually mid-major talent. That's absolutely true. Look at this year's team:

Taylor, Leuer: Very excellent, neither was that highly regarded in HS though and their development is all Bo Ryan.
Nankivil: Okay, one of the best shooters in the country, but he's really only emerging now as a senior, and still only has like 9 ppg. Can't create his own shot, can't score in the post.

Next level..... Gasser, Evans, Berggren, Bruesewicz, Jarmusz, Wilson. They all have their skills (and Berggren could be a very good one in the future for sure), but they just aren't that good. None would see the rotation on a team like Duke or UNC or Syracuse, but beyond that none of them would be stars in a mid-major conference with the possible exception of Berggren.

Bo plays a very specific system that wins games and turns off recruits. This wouldn't be a problem if Wisconsin produced a lot of top tier recruits, but unfortunately we don't. It's kind of hilarious that you talk up Wisconsin's high school ball recently when 2010 and 2011 are by far the WORST classes of the decade in terms of D1 talent. Put Bo Ryan at UCLA or Indiana or Michigan and give him an inherent recruiting advantage and his team would never deserve to be outside the top 10. I'm positive of this. And still, Wisconsin fans would rather win games than play like Marquette and get better recruits. But when it comes to the Tournament, you start facing teams that have so much talent there's not much a system is going to do... or your shooting goes cold one night (Wisconsin is infamous for having these games: North Dakota State is the most famous example, but vs. Illinois this year was more recent)... or Cornell puts up 1.43 points per possession... or Steph Curry and Davidson drop 1.35 points per possession.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Recruiting is part of the job's description. If someone doesn't want to get into those battles, that's fine, but don't use it as an excuse. Bringing up mighty Cornell of all reeks of making excuses as well. The fact remains that Izzo's "system" leads to more success in the NCAA tournament and that is what matters the most by far. Michigan State is also a prime example of a team that more often than not doesn't have big names and still remains one of the top programs in the country. If you want to bring up injuries, you should also mention the Kalin Lucas injury last year.

I think the argument that Izzo struggles against Ryan or Michigan State against Wisconsin in head to head matchups is legit, but it can't determine if someone is the better coach of the two. Historically, it isn't even close at the moment who will be remembered 50 years from now and who won't. And I don't dislike Wisconsin at all, I actually like that they are different.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

I don't think Izzo matches Bo's achievements if he is at Wisconsin, but I think Bo Ryan can do just as well as Izzo at Michigan State. Recruiting is "part of the job description" okay, but not every school can recruit nationally. That's just not reality.


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## bpurc22 (Jan 3, 2011)

Nimreitz said:


> I don't think Izzo matches Bo's achievements if he is at Wisconsin, but I think Bo Ryan can do just as well as Izzo at Michigan State. Recruiting is "part of the job description" okay, but not every school can recruit nationally. That's just not reality.


Agree 100% and with your last post. I'm not sure how you're going to argue that MSU's talent isn't that much better than Wisconsin's. 

I'm thinking of talent as a combination of a bunch of things, like how good they were when recruited, how they were ranked nationally, size, athleticism.

I meant MSU has much more talent, not skill. Skill comes from coaching and personal development and that's where WIsconsin blows MSU out of the water.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

bpurc22 said:


> Agree 100% and with your last post. I'm not sure how you're going to argue that MSU's talent isn't that much better than Wisconsin's.
> 
> I'm thinking of talent as a combination of a bunch of things, like how good they were when recruited, how they were ranked nationally, size, athleticism.
> 
> I meant MSU has much more talent, not skill. Skill comes from coaching and personal development and that's where WIsconsin blows MSU out of the water.


The development is better? Come on man. Look at all the successful MSU players in the league, plus recruiting rankings are not always right. You act like Izzo is grabbing elite national players all the time. Most of his players are low 4*, high 3* local kids. It's not like he is getting can't miss prospects, while Bo Ryan is landing kids with only a UW-Green Bay offer. I know even you don't believe all this garbage you are typing.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Go look at the other offers Josh Gasser (other than Alando Tucker and Devin Harris, the only true freshman to start under Bo Ryan) was getting when he signed with Wisconsin. Jarmusz (started all last year and I think maybe in 2009 as well) is the same. Evans was getting walk-on offers at best from high major programs. We haven't ever got a player who's been seriously offered by a top program, and if JP Tokoto is the first it will probably be because UNC and Duke are losing interest and focusing on guys like Shabazz Muhammad, Rasheed Sulaimon, and Alex Murphy. And I'm not positive, but I highly doubt Leuer, Taylor, and Brusewicz had any other offer more impressive than Minnesota. Nankivil was probably such an early commit that no one showed interest.

What top MSU players in the league? J-Rich? Mo Pete? Mo Ager? Shannon Brown? The only one who's decent is Zach Randolph and I don't think you can give Izzo much credit for that. All those guys arrived on campus as McDonald's All Americans and left no better than they were. Look how much Devin Harris improved in only 3 years under Bo. Look at Alando Tucker who went from a 6'4'' basically raw power forward to a wing drafted in the first round.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

:laugh: at mighty Duke getting walloped by Saint John's. A team that is 11-8, well about to be 12-8.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Nimreitz said:


> Go look at the other offers Josh Gasser (other than Alando Tucker and Devin Harris, the only true freshman to start under Bo Ryan) was getting when he signed with Wisconsin. Jarmusz (started all last year and I think maybe in 2009 as well) is the same. Evans was getting walk-on offers at best from high major programs. We haven't ever got a player who's been seriously offered by a top program, and if JP Tokoto is the first it will probably be because UNC and Duke are losing interest and focusing on guys like Shabazz Muhammad, Rasheed Sulaimon, and Alex Murphy. And I'm not positive, but I highly doubt Leuer, Taylor, and Brusewicz had any other offer more impressive than Minnesota. Nankivil was probably such an early commit that no one showed interest.
> 
> What top MSU players in the league? J-Rich? Mo Pete? Mo Ager? Shannon Brown? The only one who's decent is Zach Randolph and I don't think you can give Izzo much credit for that. All those guys arrived on campus as McDonald's All Americans and left no better than they were. Look how much Devin Harris improved in only 3 years under Bo. Look at Alando Tucker who went from a 6'4'' basically raw power forward to a wing drafted in the first round.


I said successful, not top NBA players. No one ever dubbed any of those guys franchise players, but they have made nice careers for themselves. Summers, Lucas, Green have all developed very nicely in their 4 years in East Lansing if you want to talk recent talent. Get out of here with Izzo's players never got any better. Every player who has played 4 years for Izzo has made a final 4. His development of the team is superior to Bo Ryan's and that has been proven time and time again. Also Izzo's teams always play their best ball in March. This is development, right? 

I mean damn, I'm not trying to diminish what Bo has done, he is a great coach, but he still has a ways to go to prove himself as an elite coach.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

Bo Ryan is the Big 10 version of Jamie Dixon. Both great coaches, but not necessarily elite. A final four or two definitely gets them in the conversation..


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

O so y'all are just going to ignore the Duke loss huh? lol


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Rather Unique said:


> Bo Ryan is the Big 10 version of Jamie Dixon. Both great coaches, but not necessarily elite. A final four or two definitely gets them in the conversation..


Bingo.


Also as a Knicks fan and a UNC fan it was sweet to watch Duke get beat at MSG. Duke is still a pretty good team, but they are back to being fairly one-dimensional. If they are not hitting jump shots they will struggle. With Irving they were the best team in the country, but now I would hesitate to put them amongst the top 5.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Duke isn't a juggernaut without their best player and eventually every team is going to struggle on the road at times. They just came out flat, didn't play with enough intensity and couldn't make a shot, at one point they were 1/19 from three.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

Duke got killed in the paint today, couldn't contain the athletic ability of st.johns on the bounce and inside. Their interior D was just flat out bad. BIG win for St. John's to keep their tourney hopes alive and improving, they have a brutal BE schedule. 

As for Duke, they're not the overall favorite anymore that's for sure, but i'm not sure i'd take them out of the top 5 tho...tOSU/PITT/Texas/Kansas...Duke/UCONN/Cuse/Nova/Purdue/Kentucky..i think i'd take Duke over any of those..


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## bpurc22 (Jan 3, 2011)

Kalin Lucas recruiting grade - 97 (Michigan Wolverines)
Durrell Summer recruiting grade - 96 (Syracuse Orange, Memphis Tigers, Connecticut Huskies, Illinois Fighting Illini)
Draymond Green recruiting grade - 96 (Michigan Wolverines, Kentucky Wildcats)
Delvon Roe recruiting grade - 96 (North Carolina Tar Heels, Michigan Wolverines, Kansas Jayhawks, Ohio State Buckeyes)
Korie Lucious recruiting grade - 93 (Florida Gators, Arkansas Razorbacks, Georgetown Hoyas)
Keith Appling recruiting grade - 95 (Georgetown Hoyas, North Carolina Tar Heels, Syracuse Orange, Memphis Tigers)
Garrick Sherman recruiting grade - 90
Derrick Nix recruiting grade - 91
Adreian Payne recruting grade - 95

Jon Leuer recruiting grade - 93 (Iowa Hawkeyes, Kansas Jayhawks, Minnesota Golden Gophers, Notre Dame Fighting Irish)
Jordan Taylor recruiting grade - 89 (Penn State Nittany Lions, Minnesota Golden Gophers, Northern Iowa Panthers, Green Bay Phoenix)
Keaton Nankivil recruiting grade - 93 (Boston College Eagles, Marquette Golden Eagles, Iowa Hawkeyes, Iowa State Cyclones)
Josh Gasser recruiting grade - 89 (Northwestern Wildcats, Arizona State Sun Devils, Maryland Terrapins, Creighton Bluejays)
Mike Bruesewitz recruiting grade - 89 (Nebraska Cornhuskers, Minnesota Golden Gophers, Purdue Boilermakers, Davidson Wildcats, Washington State Cougars)
Tim Jarmusz recruiting grade - 81 (Northwestern Wildcats, Green Bay Phoenix, Loyola (IL) Ramblers, Washington State Cougars)
Ryan Evans recruiting grade - 40 (Pepperdine Waves, Portland State Vikings)

I'm not saying one coach is better, I'm just saying that one coach gets significantly more talent than the other. It's true. Look at the teams the Wisconsin commits were looking at. Jordan Taylor was recruiting by Penn State, Minnesota, Northern Iowa, and Green Bay and is the best PG in the Big 10 this year. Not to mention that Wisconsin is having a significantly better year. Izzo has the #15, #36, #78 players from 2008, #36, #42 from 2007, #26/27 from 2010 and is 12-8.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Where did I say Ryan was out recruiting Izzo? What Ryan has done is remarkable, but part of the coaching game is recruiting. 

Izzo > Ryan at recruiting
Izzo > Ryan at developing a team over the course of a season. 
Izzo > Ryan

I'll ask you this, do you think with the same resources as Izzo, Ryan would make 6 final 4's in 12 years? Or have every 4 year player play in a final 4? I don't see it. What Izzo has done at MSU is remarkable and he is pretty damn consistent. I really don't see an argument here.


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## bpurc22 (Jan 3, 2011)

"You act like Izzo is grabbing elite national players all the time. Most of his players are low 4*, high 3* local kids. It's not like he is getting can't miss prospects, while Bo Ryan is landing kids with only a UW-Green Bay offer. I know even you don't believe all this garbage you are typing."

Izzo is time and time again placed with top players and has done well with them, I agree. And I'm not going to say Ryan would do what Izzo has done at MSU, but I sure as hell know Izzo wouldn't accomplish nearly as much as Ryan at Wisconsin. You can't say it's all Izzo in those recent Final 4s when he's had the talent to win it all every year.

And recruiting doesn't value a coach as a coach. That's exactly part of the argument - Ryan has turned players who got looks from Iowa and Northern Iowa into B-10 POY candidates and a top-5 PG nationally. Izzo has gotten as much or less of his players than expected, especially this year


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Again, not every school can recruit nationally. How you can fault the coach of Wisconsin for not being able to lure a top Michigan or North Carolina or California kid to Madison seems totally ridiculous to me. Michigan State isn't really a national recruiter either, but they are taking kids from a much bigger and better local pot. The difference isn't really in who can recruit better kids, it's that better kids live by Michigan State.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

HB said:


> O so y'all are just going to ignore the Duke loss huh? lol


You want to make a bet that Duke makes it further in the tourney than UNC again.


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## bpurc22 (Jan 3, 2011)

^ lol. That really was a embarrassing loss tho. Big East teams are going to dominate the tournament this year, I have a feeling. Last year was weak. SJU could be dangerous with the athleticism, speed, and experience


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

zagsfan20 said:


> You want to make a bet that Duke makes it further in the tourney than UNC again.


What are you getting at? When did I say otherwise? I dare you to prove I said such, knowing damn well that I have admitted on here that Duke' team last year and this year were better than UNC'. Why do you have to lie on here man?


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

HB said:


> What are you getting at? When did I say otherwise? I dare you to prove I said such, knowing damn well that I have admitted on here that Duke' team last year and this year were better than UNC'. Why do you have to lie on here man?


I never said you did. 

I just want to know why you're bashing Duke. UNC isn't as good as the Blue Devils.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

zagsfan20 said:


> I never said you did.
> 
> I just want to know why you're bashing Duke. UNC isn't as good as the Blue Devils.


HB's post was bashing Duke? LOL, it's sort of noteworthy when a team that was expected to be clear cut title favorites loses to a mediocre opponent.

I guess Duke fans never made fun of UNC when we lost to BC and then Wake Forest during the 2009 reason, right?:whatever:


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Drewbs said:


> HB's post was bashing Duke? LOL, it's sort of noteworthy when a team that was expected to be clear cut title favorites loses to a mediocre opponent.
> 
> I guess Duke fans never made fun of UNC when we lost to BC and then Wake Forest during the 2009 reason, right?:whatever:


Didn't the Felton, May, Williams, McCants team lose to a mediocre Santa Clara team? **** happens.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Without Felton, but yeah.


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