# And you wonder why Kobe shoots so much



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Kobe was 14-36 from the field with 46 points. 

The rest of the Lakers were *18-59* from the field, and so many of them were wide open shots created by Kobe himself, and the game still went to overtime. Kobe almost single handedly beat the Nets. 

Kobe Bryant is amazing, but the Lakers are not very good.


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## Pnack (Aug 23, 2005)

could not agree with you more.

Yes, Kobe takes alot of shots, but in doing so he is giving the lakers a chance to win!
Without Kobe the Lakers would not have scored over 60 points this game.
The man was not human during the last minute of the game hitting two absolutely ridiculous threes that should been air balls had they been shot by any other player. If the Lakers make the playoffs, he gets my vote for MVP.


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## essaywhuman (Aug 10, 2005)

Kobe was actually giving up the ball in OT, whereas a little earlier in the season he would've been jacking up some shots. Steve Kerr wrote a good article about this recently:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...vLYF?slug=sk-lakers112505&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
He showed lots of trust in his teammates today though, but the team just didn't come through. The Lakers really needed this win though, with the Spurs coming up on the road next.


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

Lamar Odom was turned into a jumpshooter during this game and that's not what he is. 

Though Kobe was amazing at the end of regulation, I still think he needs better shot selection. He's settling way too much for 15-20 foot jumpers and took a lot of 3s tonight. Kidd did a pretty good job on Kobe and was frustrating him a lot. 

Kobe did do a good defensive job on Carter though. Smothering him the entire night.

Kobe is going through what KGs going through....maybe they should unite?:biggrin:


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## essaywhuman (Aug 10, 2005)

HallOfFamer said:


> Though Kobe was amazing at the end of regulation, I still think he needs better shot selection. He's settling way too much for 15-20 foot jumpers and took a lot of 3s tonight. Kidd did a pretty good job on Kobe and was frustrating him a lot.
> 
> Kobe did do a good defensive job on Carter though. Smothering him the entire night.


Yeah, I agree. Kobe seems to be falling in love with that jumper lately. I'd love to see him drive to the basket a lot more.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HallOfFamer said:


> Kobe did do a good defensive job on Carter though. Smothering him the entire night.


Completely agree. Vince Carter had just 10 points on 3-12. That's his worst game of the year. Kobe locked him down tonight, on top of shouldering the entire offense.


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## LameR (Jan 4, 2004)

14 of 36 is not amazing (39%? come on..). If you take 36 shots, you better get a good amount of points.

Not to diss on Kobe, because he IS a great player, but he's not exactly shooting lights out himself. And to be fair, his team shot 30%. Comparing 30 to 39 and making it sound like Kobe's shooting amazingly isn't very accurate. He also had 16 free throws as well...


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

46 points on 36 shots is good production. If he got 46 points on 23-36 from the field, you would say it's great production.

If you want a better measure, Kobe scored 46 points on 36 shots, while the rest of the Lakers scored 50 points on 59 shots. I'm sorry but that's terrible, and it wasn't good defense, it wasn't aggressive defense, they were missing good shots.


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## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

I thought Kobe got way too passive in the OT. It was obvious nobody else (except Cook) was gonna do anything so he shouldn't have passed at all. They were horrible tonight, yet almost won.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Completely agree. Vince Carter had just 10 points on 3-12. That's his worst game of the year. Kobe locked him down tonight, on top of shouldering the entire offense.


I'll give him that Kobe did a nice defensive job on Vince but lets also not forget that Vince was in foul trouble during that game and Kobe didnt exactly shoot a nice percentage either


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Hbwoy said:


> I'll give him that Kobe did a nice defensive job on Vince but lets also not forget that Vince was in foul trouble during that game and Kobe didnt exactly shoot a nice percentage either


...and Jason Kidd was guarding him (presuming you're implying that Vince locked down Kobe too)


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## 7M3 (Aug 5, 2002)

Kobe shot the ball a ridiculous amount of times, but it was Jason Kidd who dominated that game.


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## justasking? (Oct 1, 2005)

7M3 said:


> Kobe shot the ball a ridiculous amount of times, but it was Jason Kidd who dominated that game.


Very well said. :clap: :cheers:


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

You guys value field goal percentage too much in offensive efficiency. Really. 

You would rather have a guy go 6-10 and score 12 points with no free throw attempts, than a guy go 4-12 from the field and 18-20 from the line and score 30 points. Just doesn't make any sense.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

7M3 said:


> Kobe shot the ball a ridiculous amount of times, but it was Jason Kidd who dominated that game.


Yeah, Kidd played a damn good game. He was the 2nd best player on the floor, playing with the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th best players on the court. Maybe you could slip Cook in there, but the difference tonight was in the supporting cast. Kobe outplayed Kidd fairly easily.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

If only we didn't make that stupid trade for Kwame Brown... yeah who says we don't need Butler's offense.

Brian Cook has looked better than Kwame anyways.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Ras said:


> ...and Jason Kidd was guarding him (presuming you're implying that Vince locked down Kobe too)


Umm no


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Yeah, Kidd played a damn good game. He was the 2nd best player on the floor, playing with the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th best players on the court. Maybe you could slip Cook in there, but the difference tonight was in the supporting cast. *Kobe outplayed Kidd fairly easily*.


and lost, much good those stats were.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> If only we didn't make that stupid trade for Kwame Brown... yeah who says we don't need Butler's offense.
> 
> Brian Cook has looked better than Kwame anyways.


Way to stay on topic, but you're right. Mainly because Odom is a lot worse than I thought. He is complete garbage. Butler not being traded would mean less time for Odom, but that looks like it would have been a good thing.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Hbwoy said:


> and lost, much good those stats were.


True, he did lose. Kobe outplayed Kidd, and Kidd's team won. It's not that complicated.


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

u say its not kobe's fault his teammates suck. i say it is. his inability to trust his teammates is a direct result of his teammates sucking.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

I don't blame Kobe for taking 36 shots, he fueled the comeback and shut down Carter. It's Lamar Odom, this dude just doesn't have any balls. His days are numbered in L.A. if he can't man up and make more than 1 of 11 shots. How can Odom only take 11 shots when he's letting Walton and Cook take 20 shots combined? Christ.



DuMa said:


> u say its not kobe's fault his teammates suck. i say it is. his inability to trust his teammates is a direct result of his teammates sucking.


Not really, considering none of his teammates (except Odom) have done a damn thing in their careers, and one of them (Parker) is having by far the best year of his career. They just suck, mostly because they're mediocre players but primarily because they're lost in the triangle. Besides Kobe and Walton no one knows where their spots are.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

DuMa said:


> u say its not kobe's fault his teammates suck. i say it is. his inability to trust his teammates is a direct result of his teammates sucking.


 :laugh:


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

DuMa said:


> u say its not kobe's fault his teammates suck. i say it is. his inability to trust his teammates is a direct result of his teammates sucking.


Do you trust a thief with your wallet? Then why would you trust terrible basketball players to make shots? 

Yet Kobe was still dishing them easy shots tonight, and they were pathetic. It was one of the worst displays of basketball I've ever seen. Ever.


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## 7M3 (Aug 5, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Kobe outplayed Kidd fairly easily.


Not really. Kidd had the more efficient overall game. 

Kidd: 35 points
TS: 63% 
12 assists
8 rebounds

Kobe: 46 points
TS: 53%
3 assists
3 rebounds

Sorry to hijack your thread, but to say that Kobe _easily_ outplayed Kidd just isn't true. Jason was everywhere tonight, offensively and defensively. (not to say Kobe wasn't as well)


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

7M3 said:


> Not really. Kidd had the more efficient overall game.
> 
> Kidd: 35 points
> TS: 63%
> ...


Kidd was great, no doubt. You're right he didn't easily get outplayed, but he did get outplayed. Kobe was the best offensive and defensive player on the court tonight.


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## sic_D (May 5, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> True, he did lose. Kobe outplayed Kidd, and Kidd's team won. It's not that complicated.


Its not complicated. Kidd took his team to victory even when Vince, RJ and others were foul trouble and even out for the entire overtime. Kidd outplayed Kobe


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## Nikos (Jun 5, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> 46 points on 36 shots is good production. If he got 46 points on 23-36 from the field, you would say it's great production.
> 
> If you want a better measure, Kobe scored 46 points on 36 shots, while the rest of the Lakers scored 50 points on 59 shots. I'm sorry but that's terrible, and it wasn't good defense, it wasn't aggressive defense, they were missing good shots.


I was wondering, is Vince Carter injured or something? Why hasn't he been doing much offensively these past few games like he is capable of. The Nets shouldn't be struggling to score like they have been lately.


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## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Kidd was great, no doubt. You're right he didn't easily get outplayed, but he did get outplayed. Kobe was the best offensive and defensive player on the court tonight.


Eh?

Not counting rebounds, of which Kidd had more anyways, and simply counting their assists as two points per, Kidd accounted for at least 59 of New Jersey's points, while Kobe accounts for at least 52. Not to mention if indeed Kidd was guarding Kobe most of the night, then he held Kobe to under 40% shooting.

I'd take Kidd's performance anyday of the week, and twice on Sundays.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

I knew this was going to happen. Lamar Odom is as talented as anyone else in the league, but he is as inconsistent as anyone else in the league. Same for Kwame Brown. Kobe is on an island on the court and until he gets some REAL and CONSISTENT help he will continue to have to play like this in order for his team to even compete.

One more thing, if Kobe has to play like this the rest of the season, he will break down by Feb.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

I did watch the game, and I was surprise that Kobe explosivness has decreased quite a bit as compare to his first few years.

Kobe scored the 46 points in a way that T-mac and James did, while with their superior scoring ability, they scored in low percentage area or low percentage shot if was for their teammates.

Carter finally showed what he can do, I am not worrying about the 10 points he scored only because he was willing to defer to hot hands Jason Kidd and grabbed 2 key defensive rebounds in traffic as he entire frontcourt wer fouling out.

The reason why I say Carter start to show me he can do what he wants like getting to the hoop despite teams give space to Carter like to Kobe who is shooting lots of quick jumpers due to his inability to get to the hoop at will. Carter used his crossover and between the legs move beautifully against Kobe which often made Kobe lost position when guarding Carter. The only thing I didnt like about Carter making those in between moves was he didnt immediately attack so Kobe could recover the position defensively, but Carter was trying to play a team game here. Those plays werent for Carter to score instead he made moves just to clear some space so he could pass the ball.

Only ignorants think Kobe did a great job shutting down Carter, infact Carter didnt have the same greenlight as he had lastyear but they won the game, so F U LA fans.


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## tranjsaic (Feb 11, 2005)

Remember a few years ago, when Tmac lead the lead in scoring at around 32 a game? I remember all the Lakers fan saying he was shooting too much not passing enough, looks like the table's have turned...


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## joshed_up (Aug 6, 2005)

mang said:


> Yeah, I agree. Kobe seems to be falling in love with that jumper lately. I'd love to see him drive to the basket a lot more.


its tiring to shoulder the entire offense and drive.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

John said:


> I did watch the game, and I was surprise that Kobe explosivness has decreased quite a bit as compare to his first few years.
> 
> Kobe scored the 46 points in a way that T-mac and James did, while with their superior scoring ability, they scored in low percentage area or low percentage shot if was for their teammates.
> 
> ...


You know, john, you would have lots more credibility if you didn't sport that decrepit old fool in your avatar.

Penny sux!

:biggrin:


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## joshed_up (Aug 6, 2005)

tranjsaic said:


> Remember a few years ago, when Tmac lead the lead in scoring at around 32 a game? I remember all the Lakers fan saying he was shooting too much not passing enough, looks like the table's have turned...


as if they (tmac and kobe) have a choice


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> True, he did lose. Kobe outplayed Kidd, and Kidd's team won. It's not that complicated.



your kidding right? Kobe shot 36 times, kidd scored 35 points on 52% from the floor. He played very good d on Kobe, Kobe just hit some toughhhhh! shots and took way too many , so really i don't see how Kobe outplayed kidd, if kidd shot better FG%, his team won and Kidd had more assists and rebound than Kobe.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Don't get me wrong, Kobe single handedly made his team come back in the game, but kidd played a better overral game. I agree that kobe did a nice job on vince, but vince crossed him twice, i don't know if any1 saw them, vc just didn't want to take many shots, because kidd was hot.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

Kobe needs to shoot a lot because the team sucks. He was labeled a ballhog in earlier years, but now his volume shooting is necessary in order to win. Unless the Lakers get some new personnel Kobe scoring 40 points a game might be the only way the Lakers win. 

Last year Kobe was forcing things, this year he is taking necessary shots. The rest of the team is blowing it. Jerry Buss must be pulling what's left of his hair right out of his head.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

VC_15 said:


> Don't get me wrong, Kobe single handedly made his team come back in the game, but kidd played a better overral game. I agree that kobe did a nice job on vince, but vince crossed him twice, i don't know if any1 saw them, vc just didn't want to take many shots, because kidd was hot.


Of Kidd's 11 backets, 9 were layups. He wasn't hot, he was just forcing the issue, plowing through the lane for easy buckets or picking up fouls. That's not a valid excuse as to why Carter wasn't more involved. Of all the Nets games you've watched, how many times have they moves away from their convential sets to ride the 'hot hand' like that?

-Petey


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Petey said:


> Of Kidd's 11 backets, 9 were layups. He wasn't hot, he was just forcing the issue, plowing through the lane for easy buckets or picking up fouls. That's not a valid excuse as to why Carter wasn't more involved. Of all the Nets games you've watched, how many times have they moves away from their convential sets to ride the 'hot hand' like that?
> 
> -Petey



ok i shouldnt have said hot, but kidd was able to drive at will, play after a play because the man guarding could not keep up with him plain and simple, i think that was laurence franks plan during almost the whole 4th quarter and overtime, i heared frank scream numerous times cleaaaar clearrrr clear when kidd had the ball. So why would carter want to take shots, if kidd was able to score at will?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Kidd was great, no doubt. You're right he didn't easily get outplayed, but he did get outplayed. Kobe was the best offensive and defensive player on the court tonight.


Lets look at this again, Kidd scored 35 points on a better shooting percentage, grabbed more rebounds and had more assists. 12 rebounds to 3, 8 assits to 3 and yet you claim Kobe outplayed Kidd. Kobe might have been the best offensive player, but dude missed 22 shots. Jason Kidd was the best player on that court last night, period!

Its funny that Kobe fans expect people to be sympathetic towards Kobe's cause now that he is surrounded by a terrible cast. Did you show the same feeling towards the AIs', Tmacs, Vinces and Pierces during the last 3 or 4 years.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

VC_15 said:


> ok i shouldnt have said hot, but kidd was able to drive at will, play after a play because the man guarding could not keep up with him plain and simple, i think that was laurence franks plan during almost the whole 4th quarter and overtime, i heared frank scream numerous times cleaaaar clearrrr clear when kidd had the ball. So why would carter want to take shots, if kidd was able to score at will?


Kidd has 12 assists, and several turnovers. 3 a pass to Krstic that was kicked out of bounds, a long pass to RJ that RJ couldn't run down. And a pass to Carter which turned into a foul.

Kidd to Krstic; 1st quarter.
Kidd to Krstic; 2nd quarter.
Kidd to Robinson; 2nd quarter. On the baseline, to Robinson for the layup.
Kidd to Krstic; 2nd quarter. On the baseline, to Krstic for the layup.
Kidd to Carter; 3rd quarter. Alley Opp.
Kidd to Robinson; 3rd quarter.
Kidd to Krstic; 3rd quarter.
Kidd to McInnis; 3rd quarter.
Kidd to Krstic; 4th quarter.
Kidd to Collins; 4th quarter.
Kidd to Vaugn; OT.
Kidd to McInnis; OT.

Posted in the Nets forum. Kidd was finding open people.

Carter and Jefferson both had very off nights.

-Petey


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

yea im a lakers fan as well, and it gets annoying when Lakers fan complain about Kobe shooting too 

much, WhaTS HE GONNA DO PASS IT TO AN TEAMATE s othey will turn it over or miss ???

his teamates suuccck!!!!! :curse: :curse: :curse: :curse: :curse: 

its Kobe against 5, the rest of the team is just their to take space on the court


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## PlatnumStyle (Nov 23, 2005)

Kobe doesn't get a pass. Cause he kick out Shaq. Is not like A.I, or K,G that never had another Superstar around him. People feeling bad for Kobe are pathetic, he is getting what he deserves.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Its funny that Kobe fans expect people to be sympathetic towards Kobe's cause now that he is surrounded by a terrible cast, did you show the same feeling towards the AIs', Tmacs, Vinces and Pierces during the last 3 or 4 years.


repped


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## Marshall_42 (Dec 6, 2004)

John said:


> Only ignorants think Kobe did a great job shutting down Carter, infact Carter didnt have the same greenlight as he had lastyear but they won the game, so F U LA fans.


lol VC fans are such idiots sometimes, Kobe and Kidd both had great games but I take Kidd's performance over Kobe 's becuase he did everything and his team won.

BTW Sir Patchwork do you still think Bogut is gonna have better season then Bosh :rofl:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

> Only ignorants think Kobe did a great job shutting down Carter, infact Carter didnt have the same greenlight as he had lastyear but they won the game, so F U LA fans.


^Classic!


By the way Kobe/LA fans memorize this, write this down, do whatever you have to remember this:

"Individual stats can never be better than the team's success"


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

> Only ignorants think Kobe did a great job shutting down Carter, infact Carter didnt have the same greenlight as he had lastyear but they won the game, so F U LA fans.


stop typing reckless john, kobe locked up mr. vincent. 9 points on 12 shots...thats corsley edwards type production.



> "Individual stats can never be better than the team's success"


nenad krstic > kobe bryant. his team won :uhoh:


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

Only LA fans would say that Kobe outplayed Kidd last night.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

sherako said:


> stop typing reckless john, kobe locked up mr. vincent. 9 points on 12 shots...thats corsley edwards type production.
> 
> *
> nenad krstic > kobe bryant. his team won :uhoh*:


Ok, I'll say this again, individual stats can never be better than the teams success. Did you or did you not bash Tmac when he was dropping all those points and his team went 1-19 or whatever the record was back then


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

There is *no* argument for Kobe scoring inefficiently. Answer this, if Kobe scored 46 points, didn't go to the free throw line once, didn't take one three pointer, and scored 46 points on 23-36 from the field, you guys would be saying he was extremely efficient. 

As far as the other stats, Kobe would have had 10+ assists if his teammates weren't missing wide open shots time after time. 

Kobe shut down the Nets leading scorer. Kidd was on Kobe a lot of the 2nd half, and Kobe scored 39 points *in the 2nd half* to lead the comeback. Yeah Kidd shut him down.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> There is *no* argument for Kobe scoring inefficiently. Answer this, if Kobe scored 46 points, didn't go to the free throw line once, didn't take one three pointer, and scored 46 points on 23-36 from the field, you guys would be saying he was extremely efficient.


I agree that kobe had a very good game, but the two situations you tried to relate are very different. 

Shooting 14-36 with 4-12 from 3 range equals a lot of long rebounds and fast break oppurtunities for the other team. Even though he did get to the line 16 times, those fast break oppurtunities for the other team dont just dissappear

if he shot 23-36 with none of anything else, it would be the same amount of points but less misses which equal less oppurtunities for the opposition. Also would be less fouls on the other team, so it does go both ways.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> I agree that kobe had a very good game, but the two situations you tried to relate are very different.
> 
> Shooting 14-36 with 4-12 from 3 range equals a lot of long rebounds and fast break oppurtunities for the other team. Even though he did get to the line 16 times, those fast break oppurtunities for the other team dont just dissappear
> 
> if he shot 23-36 with none of anything else, it would be the same amount of points but less misses which equal less oppurtunities for the opposition. Also would be less fouls on the other team, so it does go both ways.


Then again, if you want to factor in little things like fast breaks off three point attempt rebounds (Nets only scored 8 fast break points, btw), then I think it would be fair to consider how many of Kobe's shots were dumped in his hands with 2 seconds left on the shotclock and him being forced to put something up. Probably atleast 3-5 shots like that per game.


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

Besides Lamar and Kobe, who else is good in LA?? I can't name one.


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> There is *no* argument for Kobe scoring inefficiently. Answer this, if Kobe scored 46 points, didn't go to the free throw line once, didn't take one three pointer, and scored 46 points on 23-36 from the field, you guys would be saying he was extremely efficient.
> 
> As far as the other stats, Kobe would have had 10+ assists if his teammates weren't missing wide open shots time after time.
> 
> Kobe shut down the Nets leading scorer. Kidd was on Kobe a lot of the 2nd half, and Kobe scored 39 points *in the 2nd half* to lead the comeback. Yeah Kidd shut him down.


What is your definition of "shutdown"? No one said Kidd shut Kobe down, but you're trying to glorify his 39 second points second half too much. Kidd did a great job on Kobe in the first, getting 2 blocks and a steal on Kobe, and even in the second, Bryant was restricted to less than stellar shooting, and when you talk about a game, you have to consider both halves, not one, and 14-36 shooting is what it is, less than 40%


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

Kobe doesn't have all that great of teammates, but he still doesn't have to take 30 shots per game. He can get to the line without missing shots Sir Patchwork, so would you rather a guy score 30 points on 8/25 FG's and 14/16 free throws or score 30 points on 11/23 FG's and 8/9 free throws? Again, Kobe does have to shoot a lot of shots since his teammates are afraid of the ball, but he doesn't have to shoot that much, especially since he shot 4/12 3 pointers. If you were to give Brian Cook 12 3 point attempts, I'm sure he'd knock down at least 4 as well.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Aurelino said:


> What is your definition of "shutdown"? No one said Kidd shut Kobe down, but you're trying to glorify his 39 second points second half too much. Kidd did a great job on Kobe in the first, getting 2 blocks and a steal on Kobe, and even in the second, Bryant was restricted to less than stellar shooting, and when you talk about a game, you have to consider both halves, not one.


For the whole game, Kidd held Kobe to 46 points.


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> For the whole game, Kidd held Kobe to 46 points.


Fine, if you think shooting percentage doesn't matter. Give Kobe the scoring title already :wink:


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

KokoTheMonkey said:


> Kobe doesn't have all that great of teammates, but he still doesn't have to take 30 shots per game. He can get to the line without missing shots Sir Patchwork, so would you rather a guy score 30 points on 8/25 FG's and 14/16 free throws or score 30 points on 11/23 FG's and 8/9 free throws? Again, Kobe does have to shoot a lot of shots since his teammates are afraid of the ball, but he doesn't have to shoot that much, especially since he shot 4/12 3 pointers. If you were to give Brian Cook 12 3 point attempts, I'm sure he'd knock down at least 4 as well.


30 points on 23 shots is better than 30 points on 25 shots, what if it was 10/25 on 15/16, and 4 of the field goals were three pointers. Then you'd have 39 points on 25 shots but 10/25 from the field vs. 11/23 and 30 points.

I wish I had the game tape, his teammates were missing wide open shots. The Nets aren't the Pistons, they were playing average defense.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Aurelino said:


> Fine, if you think shooting percentage doesn't matter. Give Kobe the scoring title already :wink:


Yet you refuse to acknowledge my point that 46 points on 36 shots is not bad efficiency. You're ignoring that. If shooting percentage is all that matters to you, pretend Kobe went 23-36 from the field. Same amount of shots, same amount of points. ALMOST 64% from the field! WOW!


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I wish I had the game tape, his teammates were missing wide open shots. The Nets aren't the Pistons, they were playing average defense.



I watched the game too. Sasha Vujacic is the only other Laker that hit a jumper for a long long stretch in that 2nd half. The thing is though, Kobe shooting tons of shots is a recurring theme though, not just in this game.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

KokoTheMonkey said:


> I watched the game too. Sasha Vujacic is the only other Laker that hit a jumper for a long long stretch in that 2nd half. The thing is though, *Kobe shooting tons of shots is a recurring theme though, not just in this game.*


*looks at thread title*


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:



> Yet you refuse to acknowledge my point that 46 points on 36 shots is not bad efficiency. You're ignoring that. If shooting percentage is all that matters to you, pretend Kobe went 23-36 from the field. Same amount of shots, same amount of points. ALMOST 64% from the field! WOW!


Of course, I acknowledge that it's not bad efficiency, but you are the one saying Kobe dropped 46 points all on Kidd, which isn't true. RJ had 3 shooting fouls, vince had one, and twice Kidd fouled him.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Kobe was 14-36 from the field with 46 points.
> 
> The rest of the Lakers were *18-59* from the field, and so many of them were wide open shots created by Kobe himself, and the game still went to overtime. Kobe almost single handedly beat the Nets.
> 
> Kobe Bryant is amazing, but the Lakers are not very good.


:yes:


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Aurelino said:


> Of course, I acknowledge that it's not bad efficiency, but you are the one saying Kobe dropped 46 points all on Kidd, which isn't true. RJ had 3 shooting fouls, vince had one, and twice Kidd fouled him.


I was responding to a post on page two that said *Kidd was guarding Kobe most of the night* as if to say that's in his favor.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Yet you refuse to acknowledge my point that 46 points on 36 shots is not bad efficiency. You're ignoring that. If shooting percentage is all that matters to you, pretend Kobe went 23-36 from the field. Same amount of shots, same amount of points. ALMOST 64% from the field! WOW!


That is WORST efficiency than in your other 'example'. Kobe had 16 FTAs last night too. Now you have to figure how many of those were results of shooting fouls, where he missed the FG. When that happens it doesn't count as a FGA.

So to get those FTAs, some of which required FGAs. So it took him more than 36 touches to net 46 points.

While in your other example, Kobe has netted 46 points on exactly 36 touches.

-Petey


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Since when has 38% from the field been something to glorify.


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

same could be said for AI yet lakers fan dont see it that way or Kobe fans.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Hbwoy said:


> Since when has 38% from the field been something to glorify.


Good point, I'm surprised no one brought it up yet.


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

"Kobe doesn't get a pass. Cause he kick out Shaq. Is not like A.I, or K,G that never had another Superstar around him. People feeling bad for Kobe are pathetic, he is getting what he deserves."

i dont feel bad for Kobe 

its just stupid for people to get mad at him for taking a million shots n ****

its not like if his teammates are gonna do anything, Lamar , Sasha none...not even layups 

for petes sake....

and yea, if Shaq were here it would be different but hes gone so eh


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

He's averaging 30 FGA per game for the season. That's just too much and he isn't exactly shooting a nice percentage either. His supp. cast does stink, but nobody can justify that many shots a game at such an awful percentage. He's lucky he got off to such a HOT start because he hasn't shot well since the end of the season's 1st week. That FG% could've been looking even worse right now.


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## Blink4 (Jan 17, 2005)

SPMJ said:


> *He's averaging 30 FGA per game for the season. That's just too much* and he isn't exactly shooting a nice percentage either. His supp. cast does stink, but nobody can justify that many shots a game at such an awful percentage. He's lucky he got off to such a HOT start because he hasn't shot well since the end of the season's 1st week. That FG% could've been looking even worse right now.


so who should his extra shots go to? odom? no hes only shooting 40% and has been ice cold, george? no hes shooting way under 40%, sasha? hell no, shooting about 30%, maybe give smush or cookie a shot here or there, but ill take my chances with kobe taking 30 shooting 44% than him shooting 25 shots at maybe 46%.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Since when has 38% from the field been something to glorify.


Last night?


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

so the lakers would be in better shape if Kobe averaged 22fga instead of 30...

Im sorry I cant agree with that


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

tone wone said:


> so the lakers would be in better shape if Kobe averaged 22fga instead of 30...
> 
> Im sorry I cant agree with that


First of all, Phil Jackson doesn't agree w/ you.

Second of all, there's something to be said for involving all 5 guys on the court. Working to get shots (that are good shots) for everyone; because, even if on any individual possession one player shooting provides the best opportunity to score, spreading the shots around makes you a better team over the long haul. Its a game w/ 5 players, and if all 5 players on the court don't feel involved, performance suffers. Now, I don't expect Kobe and TMac fans to acknowledge this, but its the truth.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

If he was taking nearly 30 shots per game with Shaq and other great players, that would be totally unnecessary. But he isn't, and those are just the facts.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> First of all, Phil Jackson doesn't agree w/ you.
> 
> Second of all, there's something to be said for involving all 5 guys on the court. Working to get shots (that are good shots) for everyone; because, even if on any individual possession one player shooting provides the best opportunity to score, spreading the shots around makes you a better team over the long haul. Its a game w/ 5 players, and if all 5 players on the court don't feel involved, performance suffers. Now, I don't expect Kobe and TMac fans to acknowledge this, but its the truth.


 I recognize that he's shooting A LOT....at this pace he wont last past the all-star break.

im saying he has to...not cause his ego is involved; cause the team isn't very good. Their big men are mediocre....all of of them. You saw the game last night..Brian Cook was the most productive. Brian Cook & "most productive" should never be used when describing an NBA game. Lamar Odom is shooting like Mateen Cleaves and is playing like Ron Mercer


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

tone wone said:


> I recognize that he's shooting A LOT....at this pace he wont last past the all-star break.
> 
> im saying he has to...not cause his ego is involved; cause the team isn't very good. Their big men are mediocre....all of of them. You saw the game last night..Brian Cook was the most productive. Brian Cook & "most productive" should never be used when describing an NBA game. Lamar Odom is shooting like Mateen Cleaves and is playing like Ron Mercer


He's still surrounded by 4 NBA players at all times. He could be using his talents to get them open looks, that are good looks for them, and given that they are NBA players not named Jason Collins, there is someplace on the floor that they can hit open shots from. But he is not. He's using his talents to take 29 foot pull up 3s w/ a hand in his face. He's ridiculously talented, so some of them go in, but that is no way to win long term in the NBA. And its a great way to ruin any hope for team chemistry.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> He's still surrounded by 4 NBA players at all times. He could be using his talents to get them open looks, that are good looks for them, and given that they are NBA players not named Jason Collins, there is someplace on the floor that they can hit open shots from. But he is not. He's using his talents to take 29 foot pull up 3s w/ a hand in his face. He's ridiculously talented, so some of them go in, but that is no way to win long term in the NBA. And its a great way to ruin any hope for team chemistry.


 Did you watch the game yesterday? His teamates got a million open jumpshots, thats the most he can do for them- get them open looks. It's not his job to knock down other players' open shots.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> Did you watch the game yesterday? His teamates got a million open jumpshots, thats the most he can do for them- get them open looks. It's not his job to knock down other players' open shots.


Yes, I watched the game yesterday. Kobe shot 36 times. Most were jumpers w/ a hand in his face. That's not somebody committed to getting open looks for his teammates. ANd you know what? As bad as his teammates shot in the first half, Kobe shot just as poorly. He didn't give up on himself, did he? No, just his teammates.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I haven't swam through this thread recently. But watching Lebron James there are times when his teammates are terrible, even this season, at hitting wide open shots. And there's a huge temptation to do like what Kobe usually does, which is just to try and do it all yourself. Heck, that's what Lebron did to end last season, and ended up with monster stats--but more importantly not a lot of wins.

The short term gains you can get from your star player shot jacking are outweighed in the regular season by the long term effects on the team goals. Sometimes you just need to fail as a team. Yeah Kobe needed to shoot that many for a chance to win this game, but his teammates should be shouldering more responsibilty. And he has to allow them to shoulder it. The losses may be painful at first, but figuring out how to play with your teammates will in the long run yield so much more. 

It's too long of a season not to trust your teammates at this point.

Shot jacking however is acceptable in the playoffs.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> Yes, I watched the game yesterday. Kobe shot 36 times. Most were jumpers w/ a hand in his face. That's not somebody committed to getting open looks for his teammates. ANd you know what? As bad as his teammates shot in the first half, Kobe shot just as poorly. He didn't give up on himself, did he? No, just his teammates.


You said you watched the game? The whole game? Kobe didn't give up on his teammates at all. Hell, he got Odom open for two crucial shots, one would have won the game at the buzzer, the other would have tied it I believe earlier on, and he bricked them both, wide open. I could point out 2 or 3 moments like this for each player on the Lakers outside of maybe Brian Cook, who played well. 

Kobe with a hand in his face - 14/36
Rest of the team open shots - 18/59

And Kobe taking around 23 instead of 36 would help his teammates hit open shots? That makes no sense. Kobe was passive in the first half, and they were down double digits because of it. He was aggressive 2nd half, and singe handedly put the game in overtime. Unfortunetly it was 2 on 5 out there. Kobe and Cook vs. the Nets. 

But I wouldn't expect Kobe or McGrady haters to understand this.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> I haven't swam through this thread recently. But watching Lebron James there are times when his teammates are terrible, even this season, at hitting wide open shots. And there's a huge temptation to do like what Kobe usually does, which is just to try and do it all yourself. Heck, that's what Lebron did to end last season, and ended up with monster stats--but more importantly not a lot of wins.
> 
> The short term gains you can get from your star player shot jacking are outweighed in the regular season by the long term effects on the team goals. Sometimes you just need to fail as a team. Yeah Kobe needed to shoot that many for a chance to win this game, but his teammates should be shouldering more responsibilty. And he has to allow them to shoulder it. The losses may be painful at first, but figuring out how to play with your teammates will in the long run yield so much more.
> 
> ...


Great post. Excellently laid out and exactly what I'm talking about.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> You said you watched the game? The whole game? Kobe didn't give up on his teammates at all. Hell, he got Odom open for two crucial shots, one would have won the game at the buzzer, the other would have tied it I believe earlier on, and he bricked them both, wide open. I could point out 2 or 3 moments like this for each player on the Lakers outside of maybe Brian Cook, who played well.
> 
> Kobe with a hand in his face - 14/36
> Rest of the team open shots - 18/59
> ...


His coach says he shoots too much. His team loses. He shoots under 40%. Most of his shots were jumpers w/ a hand in his face, and yet you continue to state he's playing the right way. I Don't really know what to say to you.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> I haven't swam through this thread recently. But watching Lebron James there are times when his teammates are terrible, even this season, at hitting wide open shots. And there's a huge temptation to do like what Kobe usually does, which is just to try and do it all yourself. Heck, that's what Lebron did to end last season, and ended up with monster stats--but more importantly not a lot of wins.
> 
> The short term gains you can get from your star player shot jacking are outweighed in the regular season by the long term effects on the team goals. Sometimes you just need to fail as a team. Yeah Kobe needed to shoot that many for a chance to win this game, but his teammates should be shouldering more responsibilty. And he has to allow them to shoulder it. The losses may be painful at first, but figuring out how to play with your teammates will in the long run yield so much more.
> 
> ...


I agree with this concept, but only if good players are having bad games. If Hughes, Jones, Ilgauskas and Marshall are struggling, you keep giving them opportunities. They have shown they can score and they're just struggling. But if it's bad players who have never shown themselves as anything more than 8th man material, and they're missing shots and what not, it might not be a slump as much as they're not that good.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> First of all, Phil Jackson doesn't agree w/ you.
> 
> Second of all, there's something to be said for involving all 5 guys on the court. Working to get shots (that are good shots) for everyone; because, even if on any individual possession one player shooting provides the best opportunity to score, spreading the shots around makes you a better team over the long haul. Its a game w/ 5 players, and if all 5 players on the court don't feel involved, performance suffers. Now, I don't expect Kobe and TMac fans to acknowledge this, but its the truth.


Yeah, Phil does actually agree with him. He also says stuff like the following: _Lamar Odom is simply not getting the job done for the Lakers and Coach Phil Jackson is not pleased with his forward's inconsistent play. And Jackson shouldn't be, not after Odom played so poorly Sunday night in a loss to the Nets. "It's a major concern when we have a player like Lamar Odom that's 1 for 11 for the ballgame (when he's coming off) a ballgame where he had 23 points, shot well from the field," Jackson said. "He comes back and was hesitant. That's a major concern for us." Odom finished with just eight points Sunday night. He had said he wanted to average 20 points during the Lakers next four games. Well, his streak stopped at one game. He had 23 points on 6-for-14 shooting Thursday night against Seattle. He was not a factor Sunday night. "I just missed," Odom said. "It's going to happen. I just missed right at the hole. ... It was one of those nights." "It's not about playing hard," Jackson said. "It's about having a sense of purpose."_

Face it, your analysis doesn't past the smell test.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> His coach says he shoots too much. His team loses. He shoots under 40%. Most of his shots were jumpers w/ a hand in his face, and yet you continue to state he's playing the right way. I Don't really know what to say to you.


It's all about the team. 5 man unit. Passing and ball movement. Phil should take out the guy who keeps shooting a lot so the team can move the ball and execute properly. 

Yet he plays Kobe 50 minutes. Obviously Phil knows that the team is terrible and Kobe has to shoot that many times. If he had a problem with it, he wouldn't be playing Kobe all but 3 minutes in a game that went to overtime. 

Phil also thinks Kobe is the best perimeter player in the game. I'm sure you can agree with Phil there, since you think so highly of him.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

EHL said:


> Yeah, Phil does actually agree with him. He also says stuff like the following: _Lamar Odom is simply not getting the job done for the Lakers and Coach Phil Jackson is not pleased with his forward's inconsistent play. And Jackson shouldn't be, not after Odom played so poorly Sunday night in a loss to the Nets. "It's a major concern when we have a player like Lamar Odom that's 1 for 11 for the ballgame (when he's coming off) a ballgame where he had 23 points, shot well from the field," Jackson said. "He comes back and was hesitant. That's a major concern for us." Odom finished with just eight points Sunday night. He had said he wanted to average 20 points during the Lakers next four games. Well, his streak stopped at one game. He had 23 points on 6-for-14 shooting Thursday night against Seattle. He was not a factor Sunday night. "I just missed," Odom said. "It's going to happen. I just missed right at the hole. ... It was one of those nights." "It's not about playing hard," Jackson said. "It's about having a sense of purpose."_
> 
> Face it, your analysis doesn't past the smell test.


The Kobe apologists are out in force. Phil Jackson said he'd like to see Kobe take 10 less shots a game. 10 less shots!!!!! I will repeat.... Phil Jackson said he'd like to see Kobe take 10 less shots a game.

While you are arguing smell tests, Kobe is going to shoot your team to a 30 and 52 record, and every player on that team is going to be looking to get out to someplace where they can actually be a part of the offense.

I am reminded of two statements, Kobe's 'I trust my teammates, I just trust myself more' statement (said w/ an ear to ear grin, I might add), and JKidd's 'I'm going to pass him the ball again after he misses an easy look because I know he's going to make it next time.' Which attitude by a number one guy do you think leads to a better team over the course of an 82 game grind?


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It's all about the team. 5 man unit. Passing and ball movement. Phil should take out the guy who keeps shooting a lot so the team can move the ball and execute properly.
> 
> Yet he plays Kobe 50 minutes. Obviously Phil knows that the team is terrible and Kobe has to shoot that many times. If he had a problem with it, he wouldn't be playing Kobe all but 3 minutes in a game that went to overtime.
> 
> Phil also thinks Kobe is the best perimeter player in the game. I'm sure you can agree with Phil there, since you think so highly of him.


So what do you think about Phil saying he'd like to see Kobe shoot 10 less times a game?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> So what do you think about Phil saying he'd like to see Kobe shoot 10 less times a game?


I think on his ideal team with decent talent, executing the triangle, where everyone knows where they're supposed to be, Kobe should be a 23ish shots per game player. Like he was during the title years. 

What do you think about Phil playing Kobe 50 minutes when he obviously thinks Kobe is a ballhog cancer who is ruining the team?


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I think on his ideal team with decent talent, executing the triangle, where everyone knows where they're supposed to be, Kobe should be a 23ish shots per game player. Like he was during the title years.
> 
> What do you think about Phil playing Kobe 50 minutes when *he obviously thinks Kobe is a ballhog cancer who is ruining the team*?


Funny, I don't remember attributing any such sentiment to Phil. I remember stating that Phil said Kobe should shoot 10 less times per game. So, if you want an answer, you should rephrase your question.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> The Kobe apologists are out in force. Phil Jackson said he'd like to see Kobe take 10 less shots a game. 10 less shots!!!!! I will repeat.... Phil Jackson said he'd like to see Kobe take 10 less shots a game.


Really? I honestly missed that, could you provide the quote, link, and context? Thanks. 



> While you are arguing smell tests, Kobe is going to shoot your team to a 30 and 52 record, and every player on that team is going to be looking to get out to someplace where they can actually be a part of the offense.
> 
> I am reminded of two statements, Kobe's 'I trust my teammates, I just trust myself more' statement (said w/ an ear to ear grin, I might add), and JKidd's 'I'm going to pass him the ball again after he misses an easy look because I know he's going to make it next time.' Which attitude by a number one guy do you think leads to a better team over the course of an 82 game grind?


Meh, Kobe has 3 rings, he knows how to win.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> Funny, I don't remember attributing any such sentiment to Phil. I remember stating that Phil said Kobe should shoot 10 less times per game. So, if you want an answer, you should rephrase your question.


I don't need an answer. I already know your stance on Kobe well enough to figure out.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I don't need an answer. I already know your stance on Kobe well enough to figure out.


That's fine. You are welcome to speculate away as to my answer. But why did you bother to ask the question in the first place, then?


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> The Kobe apologists are out in force. Phil Jackson said he'd like to see Kobe take 10 less shots a game. 10 less shots!!!!! I will repeat.... Phil Jackson said he'd like to see Kobe take 10 less shots a game.
> 
> While you are arguing smell tests, Kobe is going to shoot your team to a 30 and 52 record, and every player on that team is going to be looking to get out to someplace where they can actually be a part of the offense.
> 
> I am reminded of two statements, *Kobe's 'I trust my teammates, I just trust myself more' statement (said w/ an ear to ear grin, I might add),* and JKidd's 'I'm going to pass him the ball again after he misses an easy look because I know he's going to make it next time.' Which attitude by a number one guy do you think leads to a better team over the course of an 82 game grind?


its easy to see that you have your mind made up about Kobe....if you didn't you wouldn't cite a quote from 2001...

btw, what happen'd at the end of that season


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> That's fine. You are welcome to speculate away as to my answer. But why did you bother to ask the question in the first place, then?


To get an answer? If you don't want to give it to me then fine, I'm not going to beg you.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

^ I don't remember tone wone, was it an NBA championship?


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

EHL said:


> ^ I don't remember tone wone, was it an NBA championship?


I believe it was EHL.. :biggrin:


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

EHL said:


> ^ I don't remember tone wone, was it an NBA championship?


Kobe isn't capable of that. He doesn't play within the team, and teams win championships, not stathogs and chuckers only out for themselves. Kobe will never win a championship.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

CubanLaker said:


> I believe it was EHL.. :biggrin:


 [sarcasm]No way a champhionship...a ballhog like Kobe could never be a good enough teamate to win a championship[/sarcasm]


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

thug_immortal8 said:


> [sarcasm]No way a champhionship...a ballhog like Kobe could never be a good enough teamate to win a championship[/sarcasm]


Kobe winning a chanpionship?..........BLASPHEMY.. :curse: 



:biggrin:


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

EHL said:


> Really? I honestly missed that, could you provide the quote, link, and context? Thanks.


Couldn't find a link. They were talking about it continuously on ESPN at some point recently. Did find a bunch of links from phil about why players shouldn't shoot too much, including this one where Phil says 34 shots out of 78 is way too high.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Perhaps you guys are forgetting the role Shaq played on those teams? Nah, Kobe's the man!!!!


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> To get an answer? If you don't want to give it to me then fine, I'm not going to beg you.


Don't put words in my mouth in the future, and you'll get one.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Perhaps you guys are forgetting the role Shaq played on those teams? Nah, Kobe's the man!!!!


He was a distinct 2nd option in the 2000 title run, a close 2nd ("1b" if you will) in the 2001 title run, and at worst tied with Shaq (maybe a bit ahead of him) in the 2002 title run. He took slightly more shots than Shaq in the 01 title run and noticably more in the 02 title run.

So did the Lakers win "despite" Kobe jacking shots? Hey, if that type of "shot jacking" is good enough to win titles, I'm all for it. 



SeaNet said:


> Couldn't find a link. They were talking about it continuously on ESPN at some point recently. Did find a bunch of links from phil about why players shouldn't shoot too much, including this one where Phil says 34 shots out of 78 is way too high.


That's not really surprising, Kobe taking 34 shots is way too much. But you're interpretting it as Phil Jackson telling him to stop taking those shots, when in reality it probably means, looking at on how the season has progressed, that Phil wants someone to nut and be that 2nd option scorer (within the flow of the offense most of the time). There have been games this season where Andrew Bynum (18 year old rookie), Luke Walton, Brian Cook, and Smush Parker have taken nearly as many or _more_ shots than Odom. Why? Because Odom is passive, he's simply not an aggressive player. Even if he had made 6 or 7 of his 11 shots against the Nets (instead of the single FG he actually did make), he should still be taking more than 11 shots, there's no excuse. 15 should be his minimum. At this point I hold little hope he'll ever be able to be as good as he should be, as failing with Phil Jackson as your coach with a system built for you to succeed truly is *failing*, badly. I give him until the ASB.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

kobe should be launching even more shots with that joke of a roster. i wouldn't be mad to see him jack up 40 a game. might as well if no one else wants to.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

sherako said:


> kobe should be launching even more shots with that joke of a roster. i wouldn't be mad to see him jack up 40 a game. might as well if no one else wants to.


And he will continue to be ridiculed just like other superstar guards who faced the same treatment.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> And he will continue to be ridiculed just like other superstar guards who faced the same treatment.


eh...doesn't matter to me. not sure why you come at me with vitriol.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

sherako said:


> eh...doesn't matter to me. not sure why you come at me with vitriol.


LOL


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

sherako said:


> eh...doesn't matter to me. not sure why you come at me with vitriol.


 :rofl: :kiss: haha 
Gotta love Sherakos honesty.


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## PlatnumStyle (Nov 23, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> Perhaps you guys are forgetting the role Shaq played on those teams? Nah, Kobe's the man!!!!


Yeah.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

sherako said:


> kobe should be launching even more shots with that joke of a roster. i wouldn't be mad to see him jack up 40 a game. might as well if no one else wants to.



You call Lamar odom is a joke?

Kwame Brown is a joke who was drafted first overral?

if kobe gives his teammates a chance, maybe this team's record would've been better. Kobe is a great player, but he has to understand that its not always about kobe, that's what jordan did. sure it was all about jordan, but Jordan made every1 around him better, and kobe is failing to do that, i think every1 around kobe are regressing. Ever since Lamar arrived to la, no1 hears about him anymore. We all suddenly forgot what player he was with the heat?. the only reason i would take kobe on my team to win a championship thats if i had a guy named shaq, or sum1 like him. Other than that, i'll take lebron and wade.


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## kindred (Dec 26, 2004)

VC_15 said:


> You call Lamar odom is a joke?
> 
> Kwame Brown is a joke who was drafted first overral?
> 
> if kobe gives his teammates a chance, maybe this team's record would've been better. Kobe is a great player, but he has to understand that its not always about kobe, that's what jordan did. sure it was all about jordan, but Jordan made every1 around him better, and kobe is failing to do that, i think every1 around kobe are regressing. Ever since Lamar arrived to la, no1 hears about him anymore. We all suddenly forgot what player he was with the heat?. the only reason i would take kobe on my team to win a championship thats if i had a guy named shaq, or sum1 like him. Other than that, i'll take lebron and wade.


kwame brown is absolutely a joke


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

the lakers were on the rally and everyone else was shooting well. even odom and sasha. but kobe decided he wanted to win this on his own. he lost it for the lakers against the spurs. 

9-32 25 points 0 assists

yes 0 assists


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Still wondering....

Kobe's shot selection, especially in the clutch, was downright AWFUL tonight. *9-33 overall. 0 assists.* And I still can't believe the shots he took with the game close.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

Even Laker fans are getting on the guy. I'd be shopping the guy around if I were Mitch Kupchak. Might as well speed up the rebuilding process.


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## essaywhuman (Aug 10, 2005)

DuMa said:


> the lakers were on the rally and everyone else was shooting well. even odom and sasha. but kobe decided he wanted to win this on his own. he lost it for the lakers against the spurs.
> 
> 9-32 25 points 0 assists
> 
> yes 0 assists


I don't think he lost it for us, at least not the way he used to do it (hoisting up shots every posession down).
He was attacking the basket all game but got a lot of no calls I think. Lamar had a great game today though.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Kobe shot terrible tonight, straight up. That will happen though with Bruce Bowen covering you the whole game. On the bright side for the Lakers, Andrew Bynum is looking better each and every game.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

You know, Kobe does need to be taking the majority of his shots for his team, but the way he is going about doing it is just TERRIBLE. Every time Kobe got a steal or a rebound tonight he brought the ball done and jacked up an absolutely horrendous shot without even considering passing. The mamba wasn't even striking quickly. He would wait for the defense to set before driving into the teeth of it.

He needs to start letting his teammates set some things up for him. What he is doing now may get him 30 points a night but he is killing his team.


----------



## MitchMatch (Jul 20, 2004)

Kobe had VC on "Akon" aka "Locked up"...
Then he torched Mr. Ice Cream man for 40 some odd points, lol. Shows the true seperation from good players and great players.


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

mang said:


> I don't think he lost it for us, at least not the way he used to do it (hoisting up shots every posession down).
> He was attacking the basket all game but got a lot of no calls I think. Lamar had a great game today though.


Layups: 6-9 
Jumpers: 4-23 
Dunks: 0-0

he got a good chunk of his points driving but his jumper was nowhere near good tonight. at the end of the game when they were down 4, he turned it over by driving into 2 spur defenders and didnt kick it out. He also missed a long 3 pointer. the long 3 pointer coming after a timeout.

odom and sasha brought em back from the 9-10 point deficit while kobe tried to take it upon himself. he was the main reason why they lost, pure and simple


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## essaywhuman (Aug 10, 2005)

DuMa said:


> Layups: 6-9
> Jumpers: 4-23
> Dunks: 0-0
> 
> ...


Yeah I'll admit it. I didn't really see the last 40 sec of the game because I was doing something else. But reading the reactions in the Laker game thread, it seems I was wrong.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

the bad shooting night isnt telling at all. That happens to all players who take a lot of shots once in a while. Off nights

the 0 assists when Odom, Parker, Sahsa and Bynum all had good games is pretty bad though. He just didnt pass the ball in this game.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> the 0 assists when Odom, Parker, Sahsa and Bynum all had good games is pretty bad though. He just didnt pass the ball in this game.


Yeah, it looks like Kobe has lost all trust in his teammates. Although I'm not sure I can blame him. Even in a good night tonight for his teammates, they shot only 39%, which is pretty bad considering that Kobe was the focus of the defense. It could get real ugly for the Lakers in a hurry, though. I wouldn't be surprised to see Phil stepping down soon.


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

Do any Lakers fans remember last year when Kobe had more than 7 assists or something like that they had a winning record. Kobe is just not trusting his teammates like he did last year. I think Phil should do something about this. We saw what lamar can do in his last 3 games. Run some more plays for him and put less pressure off of Kobe. His FG% is going south with every game.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

kobe only 9/33 today!!! last game against the nets 14/36!!!!. even the commentator said today " they played better when he shared the ball".


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

..

Kobe should give Tmac a call and ask him about dealing with terrible teammates. 

I figured the big start for Smush probably wouldn't last. Things could get real ugly quick. I don't see Phil stepping down though after getting that massive contract.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Hey he is the best guard in the league, who cares if he misses 20 or more shots now and then


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Hbwoy said:


> Hey he is the best guard in the league, who cares if he misses 20 or more shots now and then


even Ai who's known for shooting the ball too much.

he was 16-27
8 rebounds!!!!
3 assists
and just 1 To

Kobe

9-33 4 rebounds, *0 assists!*, 3 To.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Hey he is the best guard in the league, who cares if he misses 20 or more shots now and then


Better than missing 20 or more games.

Zing.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Hbwoy said:


> Hey he is the best guard in the league, who cares if he misses 20 or more shots now and then



Really, with the scrubs on that team Kobe taking and missing that many shots on occasion really isn't that big of a deal. But when you've got Lakers fans *****ing about how he went about taking those shots, maybe there is a problem.

Kobe's competitiveness, which I've always thought was a bit of a fault in him because he can't control it, must be absolutely killing him playing with a team of scrubs that is easily at least a few years away from being a decent team.


----------



## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Spriggan said:


> Better than missing 20 or more games.
> 
> Zing.



2 years ago? You sure know how to argue.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> Better than missing 20 or more games.
> 
> Zing.


You know 3 years ago that might have been true, but dude has played more games than Kobe, Ray Ray, Tmac, AI, etc in the last 2 or so years


----------



## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

JNice said:


> Really, with the scrubs on that team Kobe taking and missing that many shots on occasion really isn't that big of a deal. But when you've got Lakers fans *****ing about how he went about taking those shots, maybe there is a problem.
> 
> Kobe's competitiveness, which I've always thought was a bit of a fault in him because he can't control it, must be absolutely killing him playing with a team of scrubs that is easily at least a few years away from being a decent team.



have you watched today's game? i don't know why you call them scrubs, thats 21 yr old dude has potential! he and lamar odom were keeping lakers in the game, whereas kobe was shooting fadeways threes.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Spriggan said:


> Better than missing 20 or more games.
> 
> Zing.



Ooh, ooh ... even better would be to tank 1/4 of a season to get yourself traded.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

VC_15 said:


> 2 years ago? You sure know how to argue.


I'm not arguing, I'm baiting.


----------



## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

JNice said:


> Ooh, ooh ... even better would be to tank 1/4 of a season to get yourself traded.



i bet you if you were on the raptors team , you'd do anything to get traded.


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

VC_15 said:


> have you watched today's game? i don't know why you call them scrubs, thats 21 yr old dude has potential! he and lamar odom were keeping lakers in the game, whereas kobe was shooting fadeways threes.



No I didn't watch it, but I know all the players on the team. They are just not very good and Odom has not yet proven to really fit in besides Kobe.

Of course they aren't out and out scrubs, they are in the NBA, but Kobe's supporting cast is weak. Point blank.

Geezus, never thought I would be arguing for Kobe.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Now lets put this in perspective, he shot the ball 33 times, and thats counting the numerous times he must have had the ball in his hands. I can understand him trying to win but 0 assists come on dude! Especially for a guy who dominates the ball that much, even Steve Francis finds a way to get his teammates on the score sheet


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

VC_15 said:


> i bet you if you were on the raptors team , you'd do anything to get traded.


I'd ask for a trade behind the scenes. I wouldn't tank. I have self-respect.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> You know 3 years ago that might have been true, but dude has played more games than Kobe, Ray Ray, Tmac, AI, etc in the last 2 or so years


Does that mean I can't call him Wince Carter anymore? Because that's an all-time classic nickname, and I would be disappointed if it were so.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

JNice said:


> No I didn't watch it, but I know all the players on the team. They are just not very good and Odom has not yet proven to really fit in besides Kobe.
> 
> Of course they aren't out and out scrubs, they are in the NBA, but Kobe's supporting cast is weak. Point blank.
> 
> Geezus, never thought I would be arguing for Kobe.




ok since you didnt watch tonight's game, lamar odom played really nice and that Vujacic dude played well in the 4th quarter. they were playing nice, All of a sudden, kobe wanted it to make it all kobe, so he started chunking up shots , and Lamar bailed him twice with the offensive rebounds. he just doesn't trsut his teammates and he's not willing to make them better, that's why Kobe will never be as near as Mj, look at lebron, the guy is already compared to Magic and Mj!! because of his passing ability and scoring.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

JNice said:


> Geezus, never thought I would be arguing for Kobe.


Next step: cheer for him.

You can do it. We believe in you.


----------



## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Spriggan said:


> Does that mean I can't call him Wince Carter anymore? Because that's an all-time classic nickname, and I would be disappointed if it were so.



you could call him wtv you want. he is still better than Ray Ray.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

disregarding the assists for now, Kobe is just a streaky shooter, and when he gets cold, he tries shooting his way out of it which could lead to the second half he had vs the Nets or the game he had tonight. 

He is just so inconsistant at times, and when his shot hasnt been falling this year, he hasnt found other ways to contribute like lead guards should be able to do (assists and rebounds). According to stats posted above by another poster, he shot 23 jump shots, only making a few. 

heres a thing that is different with my favorite player from Kobe, and im sorry for using him as an example, but he is the player I am most familair with. Miami vs Houston earlier this year. DW started out like 1-6 with his jumpers not falling. And if I remember correctly he only made like 1 jumper out of around 8 that game, but ended it 10-23 from the field with 8 rebounds and 7 assists. He caught fire not by continuing to shoot jumpshots, as his jumper was way off all game, but by tip in rebounds which wade doesnt regularly do. He made like 4 tip ins in 1 quarter. And he either got layups inside, or passed the ball after that. He did something he usually doesnt do with the tips to have a positive impact on the game. Found a way to have a positive impact. He doesnt try to end shooting droughts by continuing to shoot jumpers

I dont know where to find one of those shot diagram things for that game, but I remember it very well. Just found a way to have a great game even when his jumper was extremely cold. Was great to see


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

JNice said:


> I'd ask for a trade behind the scenes. I wouldn't tank. I have self-respect.



You honeslty think every player in the Nba give his 100% every game?.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

VC_15 said:


> you could call him wtv you want. he is still better than Ray Ray.


Ray's been better for a few years now.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> ok since you didnt watch tonight's game, lamar odom played really nice and that Vujacic dude played well in the 4th quarter. they were playing nice, All of a sudden, kobe wanted it to make it all kobe, so he started chunking up shots , and Lamar bailed him twice with the offensive rebounds. he just doesn't trsut his teammates and he's not willing to make them better, that's why Kobe will never be as near as Mj, look at lebron, the guy is already compared to Magic and Mj!! because of his passing ability and scoring.


Lakers outside of Kobe - 24/61 from the field - 39.3% - 59 points on 60 shots

THEY DID SO WELL! 

Kobe played terrible, there is no doubt about that, but to me, when people see this game as an example of a great game by Lakers roleplayers, it's telling of how bad these guys are. Like JNice said, it must be killing Kobe when he opens things up for his teammates, and they miss wide open shots. That showed tonight in his complete lack of trust.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

VC_15 said:


> You honeslty think every player in the Nba give his 100% every game?.


You honestly think a player is going to go 1/4 of a season averaging like 16 ppg to averaging like 25-30 ppg. He was tanking.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> disregarding the assists for now, Kobe is just a streaky shooter, and when he gets cold, he tries shooting his way out of it which could lead to the second half he had vs the Nets or the game he had tonight.
> 
> He is just so inconsistant at times, and when his shot hasnt been falling this year, he hasnt found other ways to contribute like lead guards should be able to do (assists and rebounds). According to stats posted above by another poster, he shot 23 jump shots, only making a few.
> 
> ...



i knew you were talking about wade so i didn't bother continue reading, Wade has been better than kobe so far, period.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Spriggan said:


> Next step: cheer for him.
> 
> You can do it. We believe in you.



:laugh:

As soon as I see some pigs flying through an icy hell.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

VC_15 said:


> i knew you were talking about wade so i didn't bother continue reading, Wade has been better than kobe so far, period.


I didnt say that. All I said is an example of what I have been noticing about kobe trying to end shooting droughts by shooting more jumpers when other players (I used a player im very familair with as an example) end it by doing other things. 

being effective even when the jumper is off is a very important thing


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

there is alot of basketball to be played, things are changing from night to night so solid inferences cannot be formed. around allstar break we should have a better idea of where kobe and the languid lakers are.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

JNice said:


> You honestly think a player is going to go 1/4 of a season averaging like 16 ppg to averaging like 25-30 ppg. He was tanking.



Yeh but he admited that, at least he was honest about it. this is a long debate , i don't want to go into it right now, but raps managment also betrayed him in some way. Anyways, i don't know how this topic moved to vince. But hek if you want to compare vince and kobe , sure thats fine with me. Kobe is a better defender. But i would rather have an unselfish guy on my team, who cares about the team(new jersey) more than his personal stardom.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> I didnt say that. All I said is an example of what I have been noticing about kobe trying to end shooting droughts by shooting more jumpers when other players (I used a player im very familair with as an example) end it by doing other things.
> 
> being effective even when the jumper is off is a very important thing




now i've watched 2 straight games for kobe. and i really think he's becoming a jump shooter.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

VC_15 said:


> Yeh but he admited that, at least he was honest about it. this is a long debate , i don't want to go into it right now, but raps managment also betrayed him in some way. Anyways, i don't know how this topic moved to vince. But hek if you want to compare vince and kobe , sure thats fine with me. Kobe is a better defender. *But i would rather have an unselfish guy on my team, who cares about the team(new jersey) more than his personal stardom.*



I'm not sure how Vince got brought up either, but your comment seems quite a bit hypocritical if you ask me ... which I know you didn't, but I felt compelled to answer the question that was never posed anyway.

Tough choice between a guy with an insatiable competitiveness that he cannot control and leads him to incredible levels of selfishness and a guy who felt the need to stick it to not only the organization that helped to make him who he became but the fans that vehemently supported him because things weren't going his way.


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## essaywhuman (Aug 10, 2005)

JNice said:


> Geezus, never thought I would be arguing for Kobe.


Kobe and TMac fans finally together at last. Never thought this day would come. 

BTW, someone should start an Andrew Bynum fan club and add me to the list.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

How about Andrew Bynum? Just turned 18 years old and he looks pretty good out there. I wonder if he'll work his way into the starting lineup by the end of the year.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

JNice said:


> Tough choice between a guy with an insatiable competitiveness that he cannot control and leads him to incredible levels of selfishness and a guy who felt the need to stick it to not only the organization that helped to make him who he became and the fans that vehemently supported him because things weren't going his way.


Kobe should tank for a few months, then publically ask to be traded to the Spurs.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> Does that mean I can't call him Wince Carter anymore? Because that's an all-time classic nickname, and I would be disappointed if it were so.


Its a free world you can do whatever you like. Its nice actually following a team that has a chance to make the playoffs and even better


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Bynum should've been starting ahead of Mihm from the start.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Kobe should tank for a few months, then publically ask to be traded to the Spurs.


Actually the situation is looking eerily alike to things back up north


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

JNice said:


> I'm not sure how Vince got brought up either, but your comment seems quite a bit hypocritical if you ask me ... which I know you didn't, but I felt compelled to answer the question that was never posed anyway.
> 
> Tough choice between a guy with an insatiable competitiveness that he cannot control and leads him to incredible levels of selfishness and a guy who felt the need to stick it to not only the organization that helped to make him who he became but the fans that vehemently supported him because things weren't going his way.


The LA Lakers are a thing of ridicule because of Mr Kobe Bryant, others might say otherwise but thats not very far from the truth


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Its a free world you can do whatever you like. Its nice actually following a team that has a chance to make the playoffs and even better


After all these years of Vince disappointments, you deserve that a lot more than I do. Threepeat's still fresh enough in my mind.


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

DaBigTicketKG21 said:


> Do any Lakers fans remember last year when Kobe had more than 7 assists or something like that they had a winning record. Kobe is just not trusting his teammates like he did last year. I think Phil should do something about this. We saw what lamar can do in his last 3 games. Run some more plays for him and put less pressure off of Kobe. His FG% is going south with every game.


Last year, Kobe wasn't shooting htat much, but he was dominating the ball the entire game. Thats not exactly trusting his teammates. This season, he is shooting alot but the ball is in his hands less. Still, his shot selection is terrible. The Lakers were much more effecient offensively the 2nd half of hte season last year, when Kobe averaged less assists because the ball wasn't always in his hands when Hamblen reinstated the triangle offense. Too bad the defense was easily one of hte (if not THE) worst int he league.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> After all these years of Vince disappointments, you deserve that a lot more than I do. Threepeat's still fresh enough in my mind.


Your a kobe fan now, because I could swear Ray Ray has never won any championship rings. And oh by the way Kobe won those championships riding on the coattails of the most dominant player of our time and if you say otherwise, how are the lakers and the heat faring right now. Heck did the lakers even make the playoffs last season


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Hbwoy said:


> Actually the situation is looking eerily alike to things back up north


In the way that his teammates are not very good, yes.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

JNice said:


> I'm not sure how Vince got brought up either, but your comment seems quite a bit hypocritical if you ask me ... which I know you didn't, but I felt compelled to answer the question that was never posed anyway.
> 
> Tough choice between a guy with an insatiable competitiveness that he cannot control and leads him to incredible levels of selfishness and a guy who felt the need to stick it to not only the organization that helped to make him who he became but the fans that vehemently supported him because things weren't going his way.



*the organization that helped to make him who he became*

as i said b4 i didn't want to go into this debate, but after reading this line i had to answer.

Vince was the one to put Toronto on the map, raps was sh't without vince , he made himself and he made ppl in Canada start watching basketball, don't come to me with this BS how raps made him.


----------



## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

there should be all sort of excuses for players like AI and Tmac also.

can we all agree now that Kobe,AI,and Tmac are on the same level?


----------



## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

Spriggan said:


> After all these years of Vince disappointments, you deserve that a lot more than I do. Threepeat's still fresh enough in my mind.



add to that Kobe is arguably the best individual player in the league right now (i.e. watching him play at a whole different level than 98% of the league)


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Hbwoy said:


> The LA Lakers are a thing of ridicule because of Mr Kobe Bryant, others might say otherwise but thats not very far from the truth



I'm not sure what your point is? Obviously if the Lakers were being lead by Laron Profit, nobody would give a rats patoot. But people would still probably ridicule them because it isn't a franchise that is really used to not being good.


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Your a kobe fan now, because I could swear Ray Ray has never won any championship rings. *And oh by the way Kobe won those championships riding on the coattails of the most dominant player of our time * and if you say otherwise, how are the lakers and the heat faring right now. Heck did the lakers even make the playoffs last season


And Shaq sure has accomplished a lot when hes not paired with another superstar swingman.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

MiamiHeat03 said:


> there should be all sort of excuses for players like AI and Tmac also.
> 
> can we all agree now that Kobe,AI,and Tmac are on the same level?


No they certainly are not. AI has never had a dominant big man and yet found ways to carry his team. Both Tmac and Kobe have proved they need that dominant big or allstar to win


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Hbwoy said:


> how are the lakers and the heat faring right now.


Funny that the Heat are 8-6 without Shaq. Maybe Shaq is riding the coattails of Wade?


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Funny that the Heat are 8-6 without Shaq. Maybe Shaq is riding the coattails of Wade?


Dont get me wrong both Kobe and Shaq had a lot to do with winning those titles but the dude earlier made a statement like Kobe singlehandedly won those 3 titles when I remember quite clear Shaq was still playing on those teams


----------



## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

or maybe miami has a decent starting center?

and Magic hasnt accomplish anything without Kareem.

Jordan to Pippen.
...............................................


----------



## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

heck i am comparing now Kobe's stats ( old stats before this game, which should drop by a good margin) with vince stats ( and vince is prolly playing at his worst right now)

kobe:
PPG 34.2 
RPG 4.9 
APG 4.3 
SPG .83 
BPG .50 
FG% .438 
FT% .832 
3P% .303 
MPG 41.8 



Carter:
2005-06 Statistics 
PPG 20.0 
RPG 5.4 
APG 3.3 
SPG 1.17 
BPG .83 
FG% .434 
FT% .831 
3P% .317 
MPG 36.3 


Kobe is only beating vince in pts( no wonder why) and in assists. then most of the rest they're either almost equal or vince is toping him in some categories.( and yet vc is playing bad right now).


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Hbwoy said:


> Dont get me wrong both Kobe and Shaq had a lot to do with winning those titles but the dude earlier made a statement like Kobe singlehandedly won those 3 titles when I remember quite clear Shaq was still playing on those teams


Obviously nobody can single handedly win a title, even Jordan had another top 5 player alongside him. Shaq led them to the first two with Kobe being the sidekick superstar, but I think Kobe led that 3rd run with Shaq taking the backseat.


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Your a kobe fan now, because I could swear Ray Ray has never won any championship rings.


Ray's always been and always will be my favorite player, so no.



> And oh by the way Kobe won those championships riding on the coattails of the most dominant player of our time and if you say otherwise, how are the lakers and the heat faring right now. Heck did the lakers even make the playoffs last season


You aren't riding coattails when you're producing 90+% of what the guy who's coattails you're supposedly riding is producing.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> Ray's always been and always will be my favorite player, so no.
> 
> 
> 
> *You aren't riding coattails when you're producing 90+% of what the guy who's coattails you're supposedly riding is producing.*


That could be a legit arguement, except now that they are both apart we are seeing their respective impacts on their various teams. Given Shaq is on a steady decline, at least his team will be competitive. The lakers........

And even you dare not claim Shaq didnt make the game easier for Kobe


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

MiamiHeat03 said:


> or maybe miami has a decent starting center?
> 
> and Magic hasnt accomplish anything without Kareem.
> 
> ...


I said this last year too. Wade carried them last year, and is still carrying them this year. Kobe carried the Lakers during the last title run, and the two years after. Shaq hasn't been the best player on his team since 2001.


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

VC_15 said:


> heck i am comparing now Kobe's stats ( old stats before this game, which should drop by a good margin) with vince stats ( *and vince is prolly playing at his worst right now*)
> 
> kobe:
> PPG 34.2
> ...


:boohoo:

Where hte hell does Vince Carter even come up in this whole discussion? Kobe>Vince


----------



## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Obviously nobody can single handedly win a title, even Jordan had another top 5 player alongside him. Shaq led them to the first two with Kobe being the sidekick superstar, but I think Kobe led that 3rd run with Shaq taking the backseat.


didnt Shaq dominated the Nets frontcourt in the NBA finals?

i beleive something along the lines of 30ppg 12rpg in the NBA Finals series.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Drewbs said:


> :boohoo:
> 
> *Where hte hell does Vince Carter even come up in this whole discussion? Kobe>Vince*


Thats a very good question, and VC_15 wasnt the one who brought Vince into this, you might wanna scroll through the earlier posts and see how that came up.


----------



## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I said this last year too. Wade carried them last year, and is still carrying them this year. Kobe carried the Lakers during the last title run, and the two years after. Shaq hasn't been the best player on his team since 2001.


of course Shaq is not the same dominant player that he was in 2000 just shows you how lucky Kobe was to have Shaq.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

MiamiHeat03 said:


> didnt Shaq dominated the Nets frontcourt in the NBA finals?
> 
> i beleive something along the lines of 30ppg 12rpg in the NBA Finals series.


Yeah, in the finals, which wasn't even competitive. Kobe led them through the fire to get to the finals, and the finals was a piece of cake. A week-long celebration ceremony.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> That could be a legit arguement, except now that they are both apart we are seeing their respective impacts on their various teams. Given Shaq is on a steady decline, at least his team will be competitive. The lakers........


That isn't very fair. There's a bit of a talent difference on the two teams.



> And even you dare not claim Shaq didnt make the game easier for Kobe


When did I ever even mention Shaq before, anyway? You brought him up out of nowhere and you're attributing things to me I've never said before, like claiming Kobe single-handedly carried the Lakers to three rings. I never said anything of the sort. What are you on about, really?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

MiamiHeat03 said:


> of course Shaq is not the same dominant player that he was in 2000 just shows you how lucky Kobe was to have Shaq.


And how lucky Shaq was to have Kobe. They both have three titles, and both have none without the other.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Alright guys, I'm going to play basketball. I want this thread to be atleast 15 pages when I get back. I love you all.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> That isn't very fair. There's a bit of a talent difference on the two teams.
> 
> 
> 
> When did I ever even mention Shaq before, anyway? You brought him up out of nowhere and you're attributing things to me I've never said before, like claiming Kobe single-handedly carried the Lakers to three rings. I never said anything of the sort. What are you on about, really?




```
After all these years of Vince disappointments, you deserve that a lot more than I do. Threepeat's still fresh enough in my mind.
```
Well Vince obviously never got a chance to play with Shaq, Kobe did. Kobe didnt win those championships by himself he won them with Shaq. How else am I supposed to response to a thing like that when I know he is not the sole reason for those championships.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

just my luck to take the time to type the longest post I have in a while (which I know is pretty pathetic) which I think was very good with a solid point about shooting jumpers to try to end cold streaks and have nobody respond to it.


its much better discussion imo then bickering about shaq which just is never going to end between kobe and shaq fans


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

why? we all know that Kobe can be stop see the Detroit Pistons.

Shaq was unguardable during his prime due to the lack of real Centers and his dominace on the court.


Edit-wow 192 post people do sure love to talk alot about Kobe.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

It will be interesting to see how Phil deals with this situation. Regardless of how poor the supporting cast is, Kobe can't consistently shoot the ball 30+ times per game if he's going to shoot such a low %. I'm all for him being aggressive and taking shots but if the jumper is not falling (and it hasn't been lately), take the ****ing ball to the rack and get to the FT line. It's amazing how he's so physical on defense yet he seemingly despises contact on the offensive end. I hope Phil gets through to him because I'm running out of patience with #8.


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## MitchMatch (Jul 20, 2004)

JNice said:


> I'd ask for a trade behind the scenes. I wouldn't tank. I have self-respect.


Or respect for the fellow men around you...who are actually playing and giving it their best. VC is a fat ___ cat. No self respecting man would do what he did. And what's this he has played more games than Kobe and AI in the past 2 years? lol, he damn well should...Kobe, A.I. and every other elite guard have about 4-5 years of full seasons ahead of him. Its about time VC stuck it out.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

No excuse, Kobe blew this game. The role players were actually doing something tonight, outside of Cookie Maggot. The 30 shots make sense when Lamar and others don't nut up, but today it was just stupid basketball. It's odd too because Kobe has always had the Bowen and the Spurs' number, but today he just forced probably 10-12 shots he shouldn't have.

Chalk it up to selfishness or whatever, I have no idea what he was thinking out there. It was really sad to watch.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

MJ used to shoot 9/33 all the time during the 96-98 period. why nobody blamed him then?


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## MitchMatch (Jul 20, 2004)

EHL said:


> No excuse, Kobe blew this game. The role players were actually doing something tonight, outside of Cookie Maggot. The 30 shots make sense when Lamar and others don't nut up, but today it was just stupid basketball. It's odd too because Kobe has always had the Bowen and the Spurs' number, but today he just forced probably 10-12 shots he shouldn't have.
> 
> Chalk it up to selfishness or whatever, I have no idea what he was thinking out there. It was really sad to watch.


And that's ok my opinion. Scorers score...and look to make plays and score regardless of how they are shooting. You can only shoot your way out of a slump. Everyone has off games.


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## MitchMatch (Jul 20, 2004)

Sith said:


> MJ used to shoot 9/33 all the time during the 96-98 period. why nobody blamed him then?


Not really.


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

because just look at Jordan number he never shot below 45%FG.

AI and Tmac took as much blame then Kobe did.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

MitchMatch said:


> Not really.



i remember that one game in the playoffs vs the heat at 97, jordan was like 5/27 after 3 quarters, and of course he's jordan, the coach and all the media guy, even teammates like steve kerr told jordan to keep shooting to find the rhythm.jordan ended up that game shooting somethign like 8/35, but the bulls won that game. not like he would have gotten any blames if the bulls lost that game.


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## MitchMatch (Jul 20, 2004)

Sith said:


> i remember that one game in the playoffs vs the heat at 97, jordan was like 5/27 after 3 quarters, and of course he's jordan, the coach and all the media guy, even teammates like steve kerr told jordan to keep shooting to find the rhythm.jordan ended up that game shooting somethign like 8/35, but the bulls won that game. not like he would have gotten any blames if the bulls lost that game.


Of course. The guy is MJ. Aka Jesus in Nikes. He had an off game, but I bet he was the reason they won...whether it been from plays on the defensive end, or the baskets that he DID make were really important ones. But even so, that doesn't back up your statement that Jordan went 9/33 on many occasions. He routinely shot at 45-48% every night.


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## HawaiianLaker (Nov 28, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> heck i am comparing now Kobe's stats ( old stats before this game, which should drop by a good margin) with vince stats ( and vince is prolly playing at his worst right now)
> 
> kobe:
> PPG 34.2
> ...


Okay stats is stats but when you got 2 other for certain all stars and one in the making you are going to have numbers like that because people are not focusing on you. Put vince in Kobes situation and I dont think he could do what Kobe is doing now. You cant compare them on stats but you can compare them one on one and obviously we all know who won that battle if you watched they nets and lakes game Hint: it wasnt VC!


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## MitchMatch (Jul 20, 2004)

VC would have been lucky to lead this sh1tty Lakers squad to one victory...let alone the amount Kobe has.


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## HawaiianLaker (Nov 28, 2005)

MitchMatch said:


> VC would have been lucky to lead this sh1tty Lakers squad to one victory...let alone the amount Kobe has.


Word


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## MitchMatch (Jul 20, 2004)

HawaiianLaker said:


> Word


I got your back, holmes. :biggrin:


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

Sith said:


> MJ used to shoot 9/33 all the time during the 96-98 period. why nobody blamed him then?


because they rarely ever lost in that period. duh. he did whatever it took for them to win. by shooting, by defense, by hustle, by passing etc etc. kobe is just trying to only shoot his way out of it. just plain selfish basketball.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

DuMa said:


> because they rarely ever lost in that period. duh. he did whatever it took for them to win. by shooting, by defense, by hustle, by passing etc etc. kobe is just trying to only shoot his way out of it. just plain selfish basketball.


9/33 is 9/33. Even MJ had horrible, selfish games. Winning is impossible if your teammates suck. See Jordan circa 85-87.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

I wonder if Phil is letting Kobe shoot himself stupid. Seriously, I wonder if its part of his 'plan' as it were. He's got plenty of job security. He's ****ing Phil Jackson coaching a team he's led to 3 championships that's admittedly in a rebuilding phase. What's he got to worry about. After the things he said about Kobe in his book and in the papers, you've got to figure he had a strategy w/ how to deal w/ him when he agreed to come back. I wonder if Phil is just going to let him hoist away until he figures out that's not going to lead to any kind of success, or he doesn't learn and he makes himself look like an *** (which in the worst case could carry over into next season and beyond), and then he either shapes up, or they trade him away.


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## PlatnumStyle (Nov 23, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> disregarding the assists for now, Kobe is just a streaky shooter, and when he gets cold, he tries shooting his way out of it which could lead to the second half he had vs the Nets or the game he had tonight.
> 
> He is just so inconsistant at times, and when his shot hasnt been falling this year, he hasnt found other ways to contribute like lead guards should be able to do (assists and rebounds). According to stats posted above by another poster, he shot 23 jump shots, only making a few.
> 
> ...


I think D Wade and Manu are the best at that. Hustle, points, and other ways to contribute. I find many of the Superstar shooting guards or SF's players lack this capacity in their off shooting nights.


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> I wonder if Phil is letting Kobe shoot himself stupid. Seriously, I wonder if its part of his 'plan' as it were. He's got plenty of job security. He's ****ing Phil Jackson coaching a team he's led to 3 championships that's admittedly in a rebuilding phase. What's he got to worry about. After the things he said about Kobe in his book and in the papers, you've got to figure he had a strategy w/ how to deal w/ him when he agreed to come back. I wonder if Phil is just going to let him hoist away until he figures out that's not going to lead to any kind of success, or he doesn't learn and he makes himself look like an *** (which in the worst case could carry over into next season and beyond), and then he either shapes up, or they trade him away.


or maybe hes already content with the legacy he has and likes boinkin the owner's daughter and getting 10 mil to boot.


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

10 years in the league, and we're still seeing this. :no:

Im a huge Kobe fan, but tonight was just disappointing. Hopefully he can tame his game before it's too late, I mean I thought he was over all this. Tonight was just selfish. But I guess sometimes when you play a certain way for so long, it's really hard to change.


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## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

Mike luvs KG said:


> You know, Kobe does need to be taking the majority of his shots for his team, but the way he is going about doing it is just TERRIBLE. Every time Kobe got a steal or a rebound tonight he brought the ball done and jacked up an absolutely horrendous shot without even considering passing. The mamba wasn't even striking quickly. He would wait for the defense to set before driving into the teeth of it.
> 
> He needs to start letting his teammates set some things up for him. What he is doing now may get him 30 points a night but he is killing his team.


Agreed. Kobe's major deterrent ever since his rookie season has been relative overconfidence in his abilities as compared to his teamates. Kobe doesn't have a good supporting cast, but don't think that isn't at least partly the function of his intrinsic lack of trust in them. At times he maintains a better balance, but he too easily slips into the "me vs. them" mode, and he remains there for long periods.



Sir Patchwork said:


> Kobe carried the Lakers during the last title run, and the two years after. Shaq hasn't been the best player on his team since 2001.


Huh? Every year Shaq was on the Lakers, he was their best player.


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

EHL said:


> 9/33 is 9/33. Even MJ had horrible, selfish games. Winning is impossible if your teammates suck. See Jordan circa 85-87.


or 2000-2004 Tmac

02-03 AI.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

HawaiianLaker said:


> Okay stats is stats but when you got 2 other for certain all stars and one in the making you are going to have numbers like that because people are not focusing on you. Put vince in Kobes situation and I dont think he could do what Kobe is doing now. You cant compare them on stats but you can compare them one on one and obviously we all know who won that battle if you watched they nets and lakes game Hint: it wasnt VC!


Spoken by a guy who really doesnt know what he is talking about. 'Homie' Vince is still getting the same double and triple teams. Anyone who knows anything about Vince, will tell you he plays his best after the all star break. Your right Kobe did win the individual battle, but whilst Kobe was trying to outduel Vince, Vince was actually trying to win. And thats why he deferred to Kidd, who clearly had the hot hand. Kobe on the other hand would never do that. His me first attitude, Koe to save the day would never let him do that. Keep getting blinded by your individual stats, when its the teams success that should be placed first


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## bear23 (Feb 28, 2005)

Sith said:


> MJ used to shoot 9/33 all the time during the 96-98 period. why nobody blamed him then?


Kobe is accused of rape --> Apologists say even MJ cheated on his wife
Kobe plays horrible --> Apologists say even MJ had an off night. 

LOL. i find any attempt to compare Kobe to MJ hilarious. 

What has MJ proved --> He can carry a team with him being the leader
What has Kobe proved --> He was a good 2nd option.


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## HawaiianLaker (Nov 28, 2005)

Hbwoy said:


> Spoken by a guy who really doesnt know what he is talking about. 'Homie' Vince is still getting the same double and triple teams. Anyone who knows anything about Vince, will tell you he plays his best after the all star break. Your right Kobe did win the individual battle, but whilst Kobe was trying to outduel Vince, Vince was actually trying to win. And thats why he deferred to Kidd, who clearly had the hot hand. Kobe on the other hand would never do that. His me first attitude, Koe to save the day would never let him do that. Keep getting blinded by your individual stats, when its the teams success that should be placed first


and like I said he has many other choices to go to. And um he only had 2 assits and pretty sure he almost fouled out. Team success hello VC has Rj and Jkidd and they dont have a great record and your saying that kobe does not get double and tripled team sometimes he gets quadruipleed like I said tha if Vince wass but in the shoes of Kobe and had no other allstars he would never amount to what Kobe is doing.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Hoopla said:


> Huh? Every year Shaq was on the Lakers, he was their best player.


I disagree. Kobe took over as the best player during the 3rd title run and in the 2 years where they didn't win.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

During the playoffs of the third title run: Shaq scored more, rebounded more, blocked more shots, and did that while averaging 3 assists a game from the center spot. He did the same during the regular season.
Glaringly here are the PER numbers for that year
Shaq PER 29.2, Kobe 23.2: not even in the same ballpark.

Before we try to rewrite history: there isn't statistical evidence to suggest Kobe was the best player during anypart of the 3rd titles run was Shaq.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Pioneer10 said:


> During the playoffs of the third title run: Shaq scored more, rebounded more, blocked more shots, and did that while averaging 3 assists a game from the center spot. He did the same during the regular season.
> Glaringly here are the PER numbers for that year
> Shaq PER 29.2, Kobe 23.2: not even in the same ballpark.
> 
> Before we try to rewrite history: there isn't statistical evidence to suggest Kobe was the best player during anypart of the 3rd titles run was Shaq.


Thank you for providing this data.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Kobe Bryant is an excellent basketball player worthy of high acclaim.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> Kobe Bryant is an excellent basketball player worthy of high acclaim.


Disagree entirely. An excellent basketball player doesn't make the on-court decisions Kobe makes. The most talented player in the NBA? Maybe. But not an excellent player, and not worthy of high acclaim, IMO. THough, of course, others will disagree. And more power to them.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> Disagree entirely. An excellent basketball player doesn't make the on-court decisions Kobe makes. The most talented player in the NBA? Maybe. But not an excellent player, and not worthy of high acclaim, IMO. THough, of course, others will disagree. And more power to them.


If Kobe's on-court decisions have always been as bad as you make it seem, then there is no way he would have won three titles in a row, no matter who else was on his team. I know that has been said repeatedly, but Kobe was an incredibly large and vital part of the threepeat, and someone with the on-court influence he had (there was an enormous talent dropoff after he and Shaq) would have crippled his team in the playoffs if he'd made poor decisions with the ball. 

Talent can only get you so far. At some point, fluid team chemistry is required to win even a single title (much less three in a row), and that simply isn't possible if the #2 guy (and the guy who handled the ball the most) on the team is a terrible decision-maker.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

so, kobe's not an excellent basketball player? very good? good? mediocre? poor?


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## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I disagree. Kobe took over as the best player during the 3rd title run and in the 2 years where they didn't win.


I really don't understand what you are referring to. When exactly did Kobe take over the reigns as the Lakers' best player during the 3rd title run? You might selectively remember him playing slightly better against your Spurs, but Shaq was significantly better in the Western Conference Finals and NBA Finals.

The next season, Shaq was again clearly superior to Kobe. The Lakers started off 3-9 without Shaq that year. The records without Shaq and without Kobe have been well-documented and demonstrate a very strong advantage for Shaq, even discounting the earlier years.

As Pioneer mentioned, Shaq also holds the distinct advantage statistically. In fact it wasn't until their final year together that Kobe got within 3.0 of Shaq's PER.


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## air_nitta (Sep 7, 2005)

It is clear that Kobe Bryant has enormous physical talents and potential. But the problem with Kobe is his mental approach to the game, whilst he is intensely competitive and gives 300% every game, i really question his mental attitude towards the game. From what i have heard he is virtually unapproachable in the locker room and distances himself from teammates. Shaq described him as a 'weird guy', phil jax wrote about him being distant in his infamous book.
I think Kobe is a little too confident for what he has achieved: yes, he won 3 championships and is capable of offensively dominating a basketball game but he has yet to prove he can do it without Shaq. To be perfectly honest, the lakers will struggle until they find a way to rebuild around Kobe... and they have to do it quickly. I think the reason why MJ comparisons are so frequent is because both athletes were intensely competitive and struggled to be cohesive in their early years.... Once MJ realised he needed to let Scottie and the rest of the team a chance to gel together he got a chance to succeed in winning championships and ultimately become a legend. And MJ did that with one of the worst general managers in the history of the NBA; Jerry Krause (You could argue Donald Sterling is up there too).
I think the Lakers are being exposed right now, and whilst it hurts for laker fans it will help the team properly rebuild for the future. Spending cash and wheeling and dealing in free agency is not guaranteeing success (see Thomas, Isaiah compared to Dumars, Joe). If Phil Jackson (who is one of the few coaches in the L capable of doing this IMO) can help Kobe to adjust his mental attitude to teammates and what constitutes success in the L like he did with Michael, they will succeed. But it will take time, and laker fans are not notoriously patient creatures.


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## air_nitta (Sep 7, 2005)

Just rereading that and it is not overly well written lol.... I think the lakers will be successful with kobe, they just have to help him with his mental attitude and surround him with decent role players: not superstars or big salaries, just good character guys such as Lindsey Hunter, Robert Horry...Guys who know what it takes to win and succeed in the L with a lot less talent than Kobe. Phil Jax and Kobe are the keys.....


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Hoopla said:


> I really don't understand what you are referring to. When exactly did Kobe take over the reigns as the Lakers' best player during the 3rd title run? You might selectively remember him playing slightly better against your Spurs, but Shaq was significantly better in the Western Conference Finals and NBA Finals.


Kobe was the better player in that WCSF and WCF. Shaq was one of the biggest reasons (along with Derek Fisher) that the Kings pushed that series to 7 games; pick and roll defense, Shaq's achillies heel for his entire career. He didn't defend it. Yes, Shaq was definitely the better player in the Finals...against the Nets. Kobe had the better postseason. PER doesn't tell the whole story and I'm still not sure why people use it so often, as even if it were accurate it only attempts to measures offensive impact, not defensive impact or the other myriad factors that are a part of basketball. 



> The next season, Shaq was again clearly superior to Kobe. The Lakers started off 3-9 without Shaq that year. The records without Shaq and without Kobe have been well-documented and demonstrate a very strong advantage for Shaq, even discounting the earlier years.


I'm still confused why people continue to use the start of that season as proof that Shaq was better or more important that Kobe. Shaq took up $30M of the Lakers' cap space, with absolutely no backup to speak of for him. It's not the least bit surprising the record was the way it was. 



> As Pioneer mentioned, Shaq also holds the distinct advantage statistically. In fact it wasn't until their final year together that Kobe got within 3.0 of Shaq's PER.


According to PER as well as PER differential, LeBron > Tim Duncan. Sorry, I don't buy that, do you?


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

I don't even know what this PER thing is. But there is no relevance in the comparison between Lebron's and Duncan's scores and the scores of two players on the same team. Presumably the two players on the same team are playing under the same system, while Lebron and Duncan are on different teams w/ wildly varying responsibilities and players around them? I say presumably because we all know that Kobe has his own ideas about what the system is.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

EHL said:


> According to PER as well as PER differential, LeBron > Tim Duncan. Sorry, I don't buy that, do you?


The PER between Lebron and Duncan is so close that clearly one can argue Duncan's defensive impact which isnt measured as accurately as offensive prodution by PER or PER differential give Duncan the edge.

The PER advantage for Shaq over Kobe during the title runs is not close by any stretch. Kobe actually has a nice PER per season but Shaq was putting up ridiculous numbers at the time. Clearly as well Shaq back in those day had a huge defensive impact. Basically by nearly every statiscal method that you can use Shaq had one of most dominant stretches of ANY player in the history of the game from 1999-2003. Kobe was good but he was simply no Shaq in terms of impact


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Pioneer10 said:


> The PER between Lebron and Duncan is so close that clearly one can argue Duncan's defensive impact which isnt measured as accurately as offensive prodution by PER or PER differential give Duncan the edge.


I'd argue the same for Shaq in 2002 (and 2003), he became a much poorer defender both seasons (mostly postseasons).



> The PER advantage for Shaq over Kobe during the title runs is not close by any stretch. Kobe actually has a nice PER per season but Shaq was putting up ridiculous numbers at the time. Clearly as well Shaq back in those day had a huge defensive impact. Basically by nearly every statiscal method that you can use Shaq had one of most dominant stretches of ANY player in the history of the game from 1999-2003. Kobe was good but he was simply no Shaq in terms of impact


Shaq's defense was pourous in the 2002 postseason, see WCF. He was even worse in 2003, and that _definitely_ can't be argued, he was a whale. Winter has commented numerous times that Shaq's decreased quickness and increased weight was detrimental to the Lakers in 02, 03 and 04 when he'd eat up shot clock seconds getting position and then reposting if he was doubled too quickly, taking everyone out of their game. Apparently only Winters and some Laker fans saw this.


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## PlatnumStyle (Nov 23, 2005)

EHL said:


> I'd argue the same for Shaq in 2002 (and 2003), he became a much poorer defender both seasons (mostly postseasons).
> 
> 
> 
> Shaq's defense was pourous in the 2002 postseason, see WCF. He was even worse in 2003, and that _definitely_ can't be argued, he was a whale. Winter has commented numerous times that Shaq's decreased quickness and increased weight *was detrimental to the Lakers in 02, 03 and 04 when he'd eat up shot clock seconds getting position and then reposting if he was doubled too quickly, taking everyone out of their game.* Apparently only Winters and some Laker fans saw this.


That reminds me of watching Yao Ming. He eats the clock if you want to pass in to him.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

PlatnumStyle said:


> That reminds me of watching Yao Ming. He eats the clock if you want to pass in to him.


Great comparison, it was a lot like that. Well, except that Yao Ming was quite a bit slower than most of those versions of Shaq.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

EHL said:


> I'd argue the same for Shaq in 2002 (and 2003), he became a much poorer defender both seasons (mostly postseasons).
> 
> 
> 
> Shaq's defense was pourous in the 2002 postseason, see WCF. He was even worse in 2003, and that _definitely_ can't be argued, he was a whale. Winter has commented numerous times that Shaq's decreased quickness and increased weight was detrimental to the Lakers in 02, 03 and 04 when he'd eat up shot clock seconds getting position and then reposting if he was doubled too quickly, taking everyone out of their game. Apparently only Winters and some Laker fans saw this.


 For as porous as Shaq's D may have become to what he once was the Lakers big problem was also they're PG (Fisher) who when he didn't get a charge bascially played mediocre defender. Also I think you fail to take into Shaq's presence just from his size which benefitied his team greatly. Having Shaq in the lane simply clogs everything up.

Again there production was not close enough and Kobe did not have an edge in defensive impact to justify in any way saying Kobe was a better player in any of the championship teams. '03 and '04 could i guess be argued.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Pioneer10 said:


> For as porous as Shaq's D may have become to what he once was the Lakers big problem was also they're PG (Fisher) who when he didn't get a charge bascially played mediocre defender. Also I think you fail to take into Shaq's presence just from his size which benefitied his team greatly. Having Shaq in the lane simply clogs everything up.


Shaq's presense was felt offensively, not defensively. 2000 was by far his best defensive year, that was it. In 2001 it was still very good (inconsistent considering he didn't have to defend the sorry C's that postseason), and much worse in 2002. Fisher was a big part of it, he always went under screens and that was annoying beyond belief (you have no idea how pissed I was during that Kings series). But Shaq didn't give him any help, at all. 



> Again there production was not close enough and Kobe did not have an edge in defensive impact to justify in any way saying Kobe was a better player in any of the championship teams. '03 and '04 could i guess be argued.


It was very close. In the 2001 postseason, for example: Kobe: 29.4/7.3/6.1/46.4%/1.32 PPFGA. Shaq: 30.4/15.4/3.2/55.5%/1.42 PPFGA. Kobe had a great 2002 Finals and WCSF too. Closed out pretty much all those series.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

EHL said:


> Shaq's presense was felt offensively, not defensively. 2000 was by far his best defensive year, that was it. In 2001 it was still very good (inconsistent considering he didn't have to defend the sorry C's that postseason), and much worse in 2002. Fisher was a big part of it, he always went under screens and that was annoying beyond belief (you have no idea how pissed I was during that Kings series). But Shaq didn't give him any help, at all.
> 
> 
> 
> It was very close. In the 2001 postseason, for example: Kobe: 29.4/7.3/6.1/46.4%/1.32 PPFGA. Shaq: 30.4/15.4/3.2/55.5%/1.42 PPFGA. Kobe had a great 2002 Finals and WCSF too. Closed out pretty much all those series.


 Individual playoff series don't make the better player: Who was doubled in every playoff series it was Shaq. Come on now I watched everly Laker playoff game for the last 20 years, not even Magic or Kareem got doubled as much Shaq did during those title runs.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

> Individual playoff series don't make the better player: Who was doubled in every playoff series it was Shaq. Come on now I watched everly Laker playoff game for the last 20 years, not even Magic or Kareem got doubled as much Shaq did during those title runs.


so since shaquille was doubled more, he is better than magic and kareem? where are you going with this.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

sherako said:


> so since shaquille was doubled more, he is better than magic and kareem? where are you going with this.


Shaq was at the level of Magic and Kareem during the Lakers last threepeat. I dont' think Kobe has reached that point: that's where I'm going with this. Will he in the future who knows.

Ironically the best Kobe season by far was the one after the title run. His PER was 26.2, a full 3 points above any other season for him. For some reason he's regressed after that. If his play returns to that level then you could argue he's reached the really rare upper echelon of players.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Pioneer10 said:


> Shaq was at the level of Magic and Kareem during the Lakers last threepeat. I dont' think Kobe has reached that point: that's where I'm going with this. Will he in the future who knows.
> 
> Ironically the best Kobe season by far was the one after the title run. His PER was 26.2, a full 3 points above any other season for him. For some reason he's regressed after that. If his play returns to that level then you could argue he's reached the really rare upper echelon of players.


Magic and Kareem have both had several postseasons better than the ones Shaq had between 2000-2002. They're top 5 players, at worst, all time. The best Shaq can do is be a top 10 player all time, unless he magically returns to 2000 form.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

EHL said:


> Magic and Kareem have both had several postseasons better than the ones Shaq had between 2000-2002. They're top 5 players, at worst, all time. The best Shaq can do is be a top 10 player all time, unless he magically returns to 2000 form.


 Year Ag Tm Lg | G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA TRB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS| FG% 3P% FT%| MP TRB AST PTS| 

2000 27 LAL NBA| 23 1000 286 505 0 0 135 296 355 71 13 55 56 67 707| 57 46| 43 15.4 3.1 30.7|
2001 28 LAL NBA| 16 676 191 344 0 0 105 200 247 51 7 38 57 55 487| 56 53| 42 15.4 3.2 30.4|
2002 29 LAL NBA| 19 776 203 384 0 0 135 208 239 54 10 48 62 62 541| 53 65| 41 12.6 2.8 28.5|

Magic and Kareem did not have several postseason better then this. 

Magic and Kareem get the edge but people for some reason seem very dismissive of Shaq's performance from 1999-2002. The numbers on a per possesion are staggering and rank with some of Wilt's and Jordan's finest season. Do I think Kareem and Magic were better players, yes. But during the Laker run, Shaq played just about as good as you can


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Pioneer10 said:


> Year Ag Tm Lg | G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA TRB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS| FG% 3P% FT%| MP TRB AST PTS|
> 
> 2000 27 LAL NBA| 23 1000 286 505 0 0 135 296 355 71 13 55 56 67 707| 57 46| 43 15.4 3.1 30.7|
> 2001 28 LAL NBA| 16 676 191 344 0 0 105 200 247 51 7 38 57 55 487| 56 53| 42 15.4 3.2 30.4|
> ...


Shaq's best postseason by far was his 2000 campaign, where he averaged 30.7 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 3.1 apg, 2.39 bpg, 56.6% shooting (1.400 PPFGA). That's when he was still a very good and consistent defender. 

Now here's Magic Johnson: 

1986 playoffs: 21.6 ppg, 7.1 rpg, 15.1 apg, 53.7% shooting (1.473 PPFGA).
1987 playoffs: 21.8 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 12.2 apg, 53.9% shooting (1.446 PPFGA).
1990 playoffs: 25.2 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 12.8 apg, 49.0% shooting (1.465 PPFGA).

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 

1974 playoffs: 32.2 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.9 apg, bpg N/A, 55.7% shooting (1.280 PPFGA).
1977 playoffs: 34.6 ppg, 17.1 rpg, 4.1 apg, bpg N/A, 60.7% shooting (1.574 PPFGA).
1980 playoffs: 31.9 ppg, 12.1 rpg, 3.1 apg, 3.68 bpg, 57.2% shooting (1.384 PPFGA) - *age 33*

That's what I call _several_ superior postseasons. You can adjust for era and I'd agree by the way. But still, it's hard to argue statistically.


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## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

EHL said:


> Kobe was the better player in that WCSF and WCF. Shaq was one of the biggest reasons (along with Derek Fisher) that the Kings pushed that series to 7 games; pick and roll defense, Shaq's achillies heel for his entire career. He didn't defend it. Yes, Shaq was definitely the better player in the Finals...against the Nets. Kobe had the better postseason.


You're right that Shaq did not defend the pick and roll well, and it particularly hurt them vs. Bibby. But that's a small fraction of defense. The flip side of that is Shaq wouldn't give himself up for defensive rebounds. And staying down low, he ensured that he would be the only real intimidator the Lakers had. Anyway this deficiency in Shaq's defense has become overrated (I could point to Kobe at times not fighting over screens as much as he should, giving average opponents open jumpers) and it doesn't come close to making up for Shaq's offensive importance.



> PER doesn't tell the whole story and I'm still not sure why people use it so often, as even if it were accurate it only attempts to measures offensive impact, not defensive impact or the other myriad factors that are a part of basketball. According to PER as well as PER differential, LeBron > Tim Duncan. Sorry, I don't buy that, do you?


I never said PER was perfect. As you mentioned, it only minimally factors in defense. But it still is an outstanding statistic and tool if used properly. It is infinitely more valuable than any of the individual statistics (points, rebounds, assists) that it incorporates. If I recall correctly, last year, 9 of the top 10 in PER occupied 9 of the 10 slots on the first or second All-NBA team.



> I'm still confused why people continue to use the start of that season as proof that Shaq was better or more important that Kobe. Shaq took up $30M of the Lakers' cap space, with absolutely no backup to speak of for him. It's not the least bit surprising the record was the way it was.


That was the nature of the league at the time. Finding quality centers was much more difficult than quality guards. That's part of the value that Shaq brings. And it's not as if Walker was relatively much worse than George.


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