# Hawks @ Raptors, March 11th



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

<center>
















*Atlanta Hawks* (10-50) @ *Toronto Raptors* (26-35)
March 11th, 2005, 7:00PM EST
TSN

<IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="LUE, TYRONN" TITLE="LUE, TYRONN" SRC="/img/headshots/100x150/rockets/LUE, TYRONN.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="CHILDRESS, JOSH" TITLE="CHILDRESS, JOSH" SRC="/img/headshots/100x150/hawks/CHILDRESS, JOSH.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="SMITH, JOSH" TITLE="SMITH, JOSH" SRC="/img/headshots/100x150/hawks/SMITH, JOSH.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="HARRINGTON, AL" TITLE="HARRINGTON, AL" SRC="/img/headshots/100x150/hawks/HARRINGTON, AL.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="EKEZIE, OBINNA" TITLE="EKEZIE, OBINNA" SRC="http://www.batug.com/obinnaekezie.jpg">
*Tyronne Lue, Josh Childress, Josh Smith, Al Harrington, Obinna Ekezie*

<IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="ALSTON, RAFER" TITLE="ALSTON, RAFER" SRC="/img/headshots/100x150/raptors/ALSTON, RAFER.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="PETERSON, MORRIS" TITLE="PETERSON, MORRIS" SRC="/img/headshots/100x150/raptors/PETERSON, MORRIS.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="ROSE, JALEN" TITLE="ROSE, JALEN" SRC="/img/headshots/100x150/raptors/ROSE, JALEN.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="BOSH, CHRIS" TITLE="BOSH, CHRIS" SRC="/img/headshots/100x150/raptors/BOSH, CHRIS.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="ARAUJO, RAFAEL" TITLE="ARAUJO, RAFAEL" SRC="/img/headshots/100x150/raptors/ARAUJO, RAFAEL.jpg">
*Rafer Alston, Morris Peterson, Jalen Rose, Chris Bosh, Rafael Araujo*</center>


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

this is a must win if we are seriously looking to make the playoffs

ps nice avatar speedy


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## JS03 (Jan 5, 2005)

yep...if they lose...they're screwed...
yep nice sig speedy... legoserver?


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Thanks. I couldn't decide between the one I have or this one:










What's legoserver? I think I found the one I'm using with google.


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## JS03 (Jan 5, 2005)

hah thats cool....
nvm bout the legoserver...


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## JS03 (Jan 5, 2005)

I would've picked the barney one... :biggrin:


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## Vinsanity (May 28, 2002)

Raptors 107
Hawks 94

Bosh = 27/13/4/2 blocks


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## Q8i (Oct 23, 2004)

Yea.. This Is Gon Be A Must Win For Us, But Still Dont Sleep On The Hawks, They Almost Beat The Celtics The Other Night.

I Want Skip To Have Another Good Game - Lets Go Raps! :clap:


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

yah raps should take this one...maybe CB4 will do to the Hawks what vince used to do to them...torch them for 40 points everytime....anywyas...does anybody notice that Obinna Ekezie's nose is liek the size of mississauga??


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## Q8i (Oct 23, 2004)

Oh BTW.. Did U Guys See The Punchs Tyronne Lue Was Throwin vs. The Nugs? lOl He Looked Like Ma Lil Cousin Throwin Punches... :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: It Was Hilarious


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Atlanta has been horrendous on the road this season, but their last two road games were surprisingly close (Milwaukee, Boston). Toronto should definately win this game, though. Josh Smith has hit the rookie wall, and Josh Childress is slowing down. It's basically Tyronn Lue (no joke, he's putting up great #'s) and Al Harrington carrying the team, which is not a good thing for the Hawks.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

This looks like a good game to continue to build confidance in Hoffa and Bonner. I hope the Raps come out fast and hard, build up a 20 point spred, then run some isolation for Hoffa. This could be a big game for Rose as well..he loves to take rookies in the paint!


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## MangoMangoMango (Jan 23, 2004)

X-Factors:

Hoffa

and

harrington


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## underhill_101 (Feb 22, 2005)

i think we should be able to pull this win off... we needs wins against teams like the hawks
my prediction:

raps 102
hawks 88

bosh 21/11/3
rose 18/5/2


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## Q8i (Oct 23, 2004)

I Want Da Raps To Blow Em Out.. So We Can See Pape Sow In The Game! Hopefully


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

29-22, Hawks with 2+ to go in the 1st... Damnit, 9.5 spread that I want the Raptors to cover...

Go Raptors!

-Petey


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

where is the D?


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

Thank you Matt Bonner


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## Primetime23 (Feb 3, 2004)

madman said:


> Thank you Matt Bonner


yep he's lighting the hawks up like a christmas tree


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

Tied baby!!!

50-50 with 3 left in the 2nd!

-Petey


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## Vinsanity (May 28, 2002)

Matt Bonner is the shiznit....cant say the same for Araujo


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## JS03 (Jan 5, 2005)

57-57 half time


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## underhill_101 (Feb 22, 2005)

nice 1st half by bonner :clap:


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## JS03 (Jan 5, 2005)

yep....Red Rocket Ownz....


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

why was bosh on the bench for so long mid 2nd qtr.

Palacio is pissing me off takes forever to set up.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Bonner is officially $$ from behind the arc. 

Hopefully Hoffa can improve on a sorry first quarter.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Since when did the Hawks get respect from the refs?


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

Man!!! Just want them to go off on a run already.

62-62; 8 left in the 3rd...

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

71-65, 3 minutes left in the 3rd... Go RAPTORS!

-Petey


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Petey said:


> 71-65, 3 minutes left in the 3rd... Go RAPTORS!
> 
> -Petey


 hawks went on an 8-0 run to take the lead?! WTF... tied at 75 now, Raptors ball.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

omg this is so ****ty... Hawks end the Q on a 10-2 run to take the lead, 77-75.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Bonner is simply keeping us alive, 16 points on 6-6 shooting. Crazy...


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

A quick 3 by MoPete with like 18 on the clock is NOT the thing to do when trying to extend a lead.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Matt Bonner = on fire. And him and Marshall on the floor at the same time has worked well tonight.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

nice effort by bosh, lets put them way now!!!!


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

bosh taking over now.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

yell saves the game


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Thanks Tyrone For The Fte Miss.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Man Why Has Thred Died In The Late 4th Qtr?


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## Vinsanity (May 28, 2002)

Cuz everybody is watching the game

**** 100-99


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Crap Rfer And Cap Crunch Both Miss Key Ft's That Have Kept The Hawks Alive.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Damn, 101-99 Raptors with 11 seconds left. Can't let them win the game with a 3.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

$#!+ tied at 101!!!

6 seconds left, let's see what the Raptors run.


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Damn Lue ties it up 101-101



Still,



Matt Bonner is my idol.


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## Vinsanity (May 28, 2002)

Lue is usually garbage...


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

WTF WAS THAT?!?!?!? Did the Raptors even run a play? Like ****!

We better win this one... I'd be embarrased to be the team Atlanta breaks that 23 game road losing streak on.


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## Vinsanity (May 28, 2002)

I got a bad feeling man...very bad


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Someone please tell Jalen to stop shooting.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

+10 in the OT Raptors!!!

-Petey


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

We just can't pull away...


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Petey said:


> +10 in the OT Raptors!!!
> 
> -Petey


 I coulda told you the Raptors wouldn't have covered the spread.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

put mo in for rose for better perimter defence.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Junkyard Dog13 said:


> put mo in for rose for better perimter defence.


 Naw, unless you want early shot clock 3's galore...


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

yell nails 3, we up by 2, now freking stop lue.


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## Vinsanity (May 28, 2002)

Mannnnnn, we HAVE got to win this one


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## Vinsanity (May 28, 2002)

I just want to KILL lue right now


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## Vinsanity (May 28, 2002)

Awwww helllllllll


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

omfg... game over... **** YOU RAPTORS.... YOU ****ING SUCK!


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## Vinsanity (May 28, 2002)

wow, this is a definition of a bad team....


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## vi3t_boi11 (Aug 14, 2004)

Raps should of foul wit 28 secs left, omg wat a horrible defensive game givin up 116 pts to the hawks


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## JS03 (Jan 5, 2005)

OMG Im done with Raps this year Im out.......


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## LuckyAC (Aug 12, 2004)

Araujo is the next Fortson... in his ability to pick up fouls at least.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

LuckyAC said:


> Araujo is the next Fortson... in his ability to pick up fouls at least.


 Raptors are a **** team, in their ability to be a **** team.


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## notorious (Jan 17, 2005)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> omfg... game over... **** YOU RAPTORS.... YOU ****ING SUCK!



well said, raptors organization don't give a **** about their fans ... who show up even though for the last 3 years they haven't done **** and the gm doesn't do anything in trade deadline. Raptors are a joke these days. Most players for the raps have no pride wearing that uniform.

raptors = laughing stock of NBA


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## rapsfan4life (Apr 10, 2004)

WTF was that???????? :curse: '

Someone tell Rafer to guard lue, and someone tell jalen to pass the ball when its not his night. 

Whatever the bright side is we need to lose these types of games to help our lottery pick, also milwauke is winning so its even better for our pick! There i feel better :biggrin:


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

This is such an embaressing loss that i am not even going to try to explain what went wrong cause i could go for days


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Sweet loss. We got to watch a pretty entertaining game and the Raps came up short- exactly what I would have asked for. Embarassing? yes, maybe a little...but no pain, no gain they say. Hopefully this sets us up for a bounce-back win against Philly as that could be the last Raptor game I watch for a long, long time.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Sweet loss. We got to watch a pretty entertaining game and the Raps came up short- exactly what I would have asked for. Embarassing? yes, maybe a little...but no pain, no gain they say. Hopefully this sets us up for a bounce-back win against Philly as that could be the last Raptor game I watch for a long, long time.


 Yeah, but why can't we beat the Hawks like we did the Magic, and lose to the Magic like we did the Hawks?


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i didn't expect the reaction we have around here at the moment, but oh well. i thought that was a really fun game to watch. yeah, we lost, yeah, we let the hawks shoot 50% on us, yeah, we embarrassed ourselves by ending their own embarrassing streak, but i thought they (atlanta) played well in their own right. i think they deserve some credit here. 

i was jubilant when jalen got the ball to end regulation (and even his free throws on the sequence prior... which _could_ have sealed the deal). i understand he was 4/16 from the field at that point, but i'm more comfortable when the ball's in his hands than i am when it's not. i don't know why they started him so far from the sideline on that play (he was on the opposite block) but he *did* get a chance to win it... he just didn't. 

if i'm concerned about anything it's our defense to begin games. i mean, when i say "begin", i mean BEGIN, as in the first possession. there's something about our team that allows our opponents to feel rather confident on offense right off the bat, and sometimes that confidence sticks around for the full 48 (or 53), like it did tonight. what, i think the hawks hit their first 6 shots, and 9 of their first 10, or something along those lines. that's not a rarity in toronto. for some reason we're not disruptive enough off the opening tips. teams just take it to us and have little trouble scoring. 

i mean, atlanta pretty much played to their potential tonight. i'm wondering why. i think the effort was there from the raps- i'm *sure* the effort was there- but there's something about how we present ourselves defensively that looks like a target from their point of view. it might be as simple as not having a shotblocking centre down low, i don't know, but it's something that happens consistently- _too_ consistently for me.

otherwise, i was pretty satisfied with our guard play tonight. i think palacio and skip were effective for most of their time on the floor. bonner played well again. marshall is doing things on the glass that i hadn't seen from him before- that's a good thing. bosh was lost tonight, imo, and i didn't like some of his body language. i don't know why he found it so hard to blow by tom gugliotta tonight, for one thing, especially in the wake of embarrassing countless high profile/healthy PF's off the dribble this season. but give googs some credit here, too.

hoffa was awful tonight. i personally don't approve of how mitchell's been treating him. it's like he's a starter strictly for PR purposes. he played 6 terrible minutes in the first quarter- terrible- and came out with his second foul (as per usual). from there onwards, we had a 3 man rotation inside- and our starting centre wasn't one of them. it's pretty obvious to me that hoffa's learning style contradicts sam's teaching ideas, and something's gotta give here. mitchell's been consistent, i'll give him that, but it's doing very little for hoffa's improvement. he wouldn't be important anyway, don't get me wrong, but if we're planning to invest the next 6-8 years in this guy, we should probably find a way to get him in the "right classroom". 

it just seems that if hoffa doesn't change drastically on his own, he's going to stay in the same boat- struggling against himself. i think it's the job of the coach to adjust his own philosophies in this case, and put the mind of the player at paramount importance. i don't think mitchell's done well in this regard, but who am i... 

peace


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## vi3t_boi11 (Aug 14, 2004)

Man i blame Rafer n Rose each for missing a free throw late in the game


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Yeah, but why can't we beat the Hawks like we did the Magic, and lose to the Magic like we did the Hawks?


if you had to win one of the games, wouldn't you prefer to beat the better team (and steve francis)? 

I didn't think we'd have an easy time against the Hawks tonight- definitely an up and coming team- but it's these losses that serve as the better lesson, IMO.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

eh? 

this game was entertaining as any game could be. not only did we get to see a high-scoring affair, but the raps also get a chance to get a higher pick at their current situation.

sure our defense was bad, sure we let un-estasblished players walk all over us, sure we got embarassed by a team, by its own rights, the raps should've walked all over, but that's just the same ol', same ol' when it comes to raptors ball.

this was a game where two bad teams face off that just happened to turn out to be pretty exciting (i mean, what OT game isn't exciting?  ), and nothing _really_ significant could be gained by winning and nothing would actually be _loss_ in a loss. 

so we lost...but it was still fun to watch


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

notorious said:


> well said, raptors organization don't give a **** about their fans ... who show up even though for the last 3 years they haven't done **** and the gm doesn't do anything in trade deadline. Raptors are a joke these days. Most players for the raps have no pride wearing that uniform.
> 
> raptors = laughing stock of NBA


i like chicken
i like liver
meow mix, meow mix please deliver...


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I'm frustrated, not because we lost, but because Lue and Harrington hit wild shots, hit tricky shots--hit everything. I know Lue has been hot lately but he was killing Rafer tonight. Rafer looked really slow in comparison. The help defense wasn't there, but Rafer was a step behind Lue all night. I expected to see Milt put in late in the game, but it didn't happen. Kind of hard to predict what Sam will do these days.

Harrington was abusing everyone, from the perimeter, from the paint, everywhere. It's not too often you'll see Bosh get four blocks and still not look like a good defensive player. Chuck and Leo were rattling-on about Harrington being really strong, but in fact I thought he just headed to the low block and waited to get fouled. When we didn't foul him, either he patiently put the ball up under only a little pressure, or got stripped/blocked. He had four turnovers like that. We didn't do a good job keeping him from setting up shop in the deep post like that and we certainly didn't do a good job with help defense tonight.

Mitchell has been using a lot of zone defense lately. Sometimes it works really well but we got abused on the pick and roll tonight with Lue and Harrington. And late in the game the Hawks repeatedly got mismatches, like having Googs being guarded by Alston. Sometimes I wonder if we are really an unskilled defensive team or just a disorganized one.

I missed having Mo Pete on the floor, but when Bonner is that hot, what can you do? Kudos to Matt for hitting those shots, but we got only a handful of important stops during the game. Almost every time the Hawks needed a boost, they got it. It's rare that you'll have two players really go-off on you like this, but it happens.

What's funny to me is that the Raps have been playing pretty good ball lately. We've gone 5-5 in our last ten and are nearly a .500 team since Vince was traded. But we get a loss like this, on a night like this, and the media, the fans--everyone wants to rip the team a new one. Atlanta played a good game, got contributions from everyone, and we actually did a pretty good job of competing, save for making important defensive stops, which we have rarely done this year, anyways. The fact that Atlanta was bad on the road shouldn't overshadow the fact that they played really hard and didn't look like they were short on talent tonight at all. **** happens.

I was surprised with the shots Rose took late, too. He seemed content to turn and pop, rather than take Childress deep. I think three times he just launched it rather than try to establish better position. Can't really complain with all the clutch play he's provided this year, but either the Hawks did a good job of keeping him from backing into the paint, or he wasn't feeling it. Props to the Hawks for collapsing on him on that late possession and getting the ball. When Jalen is deep like that, you know he is looking to put the shot up. I think there were about thirty arms waiting for him to take that shot.


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## JS03 (Jan 5, 2005)

****


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## Vinsanity (May 28, 2002)

Well....if we cant beat the Hawks, we probably wont make the playoffs

lottery time once again

pffffftt


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## sKiP~2~mY~BLUTH (Aug 11, 2004)

as some1 who didnt watch the game can plz ya'll tell me how the hell tyron lue had 29 points on 11 of 15 shootin??
and what the hell up with rafer's 3 point shoot?? 0-6?!?! bad shots, good shots that didnt fell?.....what????


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

I wasn't able to watch the game, but I guess I am happy I missed this one.
How embarassing.


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

WOW..we sucked it up big time....that was horrid...


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## JS03 (Jan 5, 2005)

crap *** game...but Matt Bonner did an awesome job...... :clap: props baby...


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## Numbed One (Jun 8, 2003)

**** happens people.

Have some balls and stand up for your team. The Raptors weren't embarrassed here. We're not title contenders, and in the NBA almost any team can beat any other on any given night.

And I thought most of you were rooting for the Raptors to go into the tank anyway?

Sheesh. No one is ever satisfied.

The only thing to be really embarrassed of was Hoffa's play. But every player, especially rooks have bad games. He'll bounce back.

It was an entertaining game even though we lost.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Woo Hoo! The Streak Is Over!


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## JS03 (Jan 5, 2005)

wooopeee...
nice record 11-50


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Juzt_SicK03 said:


> wooopeee...
> nice record 11-50


I can feel your pain.

We had our own Babcock (your GM's brother), and I know how bad it can be. It must be in the genes, that's all I know.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

^ :laugh: :laugh: 


I'm not as dissapointed as many on this board, I think this will officially put an end to all this dillusional playoff talk of late. When Toronto can't beat the worst team in the league at home, you need to go back to the drawing board!

What sickens me the most, is Rafer Alston and his inability to run an NBA team properly. Rafer-17 shots, Bosh-11 shots, Bonner-9 shots. While Bosh had a lot of turnovers, there is no way that Bonner/Bosh's shots should equal Rafers. Rafer can be a good backup, but he better not be leading this team for the next 4-5 years. 

Felton, D.Williams, Diaz, Jack....I'll be happy with either one of those PG's combined with the return of Alvin Williams means Rafers got some competition next year :biggrin:


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## Numbed One (Jun 8, 2003)

When Rafer is taking layups and cutting through the lane like he was last night, I have no complaints with his shot total.


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## MonsterBosh (Feb 9, 2005)

Atlanta are a team of up-and-coming rookies who may jell next season and surprise everybody. They will continue their rebuilding with draft picks while the Raptors are stuck with big contract non-performers who are not particularily athletic.

What was very disconcerting was the Raptor's inadequate defence against a fast group of Hawk athletes who still lack full basketball IQ. The Raptors may be next year's Hawks because they have not yet hit bottom. When players are unable or unwilling to perform at the highest level they will be defeated by any other NBA team. 

If the Hawks and Raptors were in a 5-game playoff, I would bet on the Hawks.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

What's funny about the ongoing criticism of our team is that its like people expect us to be better, even after trading Vince. Almost like we improved the team when we did so.

We are a worse team without him, for the time being. Our record might not reflect that (.333 with VC, .463 without), but you can't really deny that our team lost a lot of talent in that trade. Peel the best player off of any team in the NBA and they are worse for it. Maybe not right away, during the "honeymoon", and maybe some players learn to play better with more spotlight on them, but normally the team is still worse at least for that season.

Why are expectations _higher_ when we traded our best player for three guys that don't play and future considerations? We didn't make the playoffs last year and he played most of the games in the season; this year we don't have him at all and it's playoffs or failure?

It's like, "oh, those Raptors are at it again, losing to the Hawks." Well, yeah, we lost last night, but you don't take the best player off a 33-49 team, replace him with no active players, and expect them to be better right away, do you?

I just see a lot more attention being paid to this team when we do poorly than when we win. What's the cause of this? Why is the perception of the Raptors so consistently negative?


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## MonsterBosh (Feb 9, 2005)

speedythief said:


> Why is the perception of the Raptors so consistently negative?


It's because of unrealistic expectations by tribal honkers who actualize their basketball delusions through their home team. I just try to appreciate both playing teams and enjoy their accomplishments and analyze their deficiencies. I guess I am just an ex-basketball playing afficionado who does not depend on the Raptors to make my life. 

The Raptors are a "team under destruction" that will look very different in 2 - 3 years with a new roster of players. The team has not hit bottom yet, and the disasters of the past are still haunting the team. Their only hope is to draft players who are willing to live and work in Toronto Canada. Veteran players do not want to come to Canada to live out their careers but will do so grudgingly and pull down the team as they fade away.

If the Raptors do not turn the corner in a couple of years just say goodby to Bosh. The worse thing that could happen to the Raptors is if they continually drift on the cusp of making the playoffs and are locked into that level of mediocrity.

If you were Bosh would you waste your basketball career on an unpleasant no-win situation? The Raptors will have to offer Bosh a great deal of money to stay in Toronto, like $15M per year for 7 years. Of course there is talk about eliminating long term contracts in the NBA so that would make Bosh look elsewhere.

Never negative ... only trying to be realistic in my prognostications ... :angel:


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Oh my god... drop it, drop it drop it. You may think you're being realistic, but any argument you have for that is completely lost when you bring up Bosh possibly leaving Toronto. HE WILL NOT GO ANYWHERE, PERIOD. The Raptors can match any contract and WILL match any contract.

The problem is people are trying so hard to be realistic, and not come off as homers, that they say outlandish, overly negative things about the team. And any time someone says something objective about the Raptors, they get blasted and labeled as homers. Stupid Torontonians...

By the way buddy, nice timing coming back on the boards...


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## MonsterBosh (Feb 9, 2005)

Bud_Boy .... forewarned is forearmed .... and all you are able to say is just repeating the plaintif hope that Bosh will stay in Toronto. You totally ignore the possible reality that the Raptors will strike out in rebuilding the team in time for Bosh's contract renewal. I'm just suggesting that it is likely that Bosh will leave Toronto if there is no turnaround within 2 years. 

Why should he waste his time in a disasterous situation and become dissolutioned and demotivated? Why stay if you are unhappy? I trust you agree that he must be paid $15M for 7 years to keep him in Toronto?

You can't ignore the fact that every star player has left Toronto for better situations. Bosh may just decide to move back to Texas where he has family.

Re: "Stupid Torontonians..."
You said it .... and I wasn't thinking about you particularily when I refered to "tribal honkers" .... but if the shoe fits ......:biggrin:

I am always here in spirit if not in body .... :angel:


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

MonsterBosh said:


> Bud_Boy .... forewarned is forearmed .... and all you are able to say is just repeating the plaintif hope that Bosh will stay in Toronto. You totally ignore the possible reality that the Raptors will strike out in rebuilding the team in time for Bosh's contract renewal. I'm just suggesting that it is likely that Bosh will leave Toronto if there is no turnaround within 2 years.
> 
> Why should he waste his time in a disasterous situation and become dissolutioned and demotivated? Why stay if you are unhappy? I trust you agree that he must be paid $15M for 7 years to keep him in Toronto?


I have a problem with this type of reasoning. I think it is actually further on the 'unlikely' side of the scale than it is towards the 'likely' side.

Case in point:

Kevin Garnett's first season with the Wolves, in 95/96, the team goes 26-56. Worse than we were last season. The team adds Marbury with a nice lottery pick as a result. The next year the team wins 40 games and eeks into the playoffs, quickly being bounced by the Rockets in three games. The young players improve along the way. The next season, with Garnett an established All-Star and Marbury busting-out, the team wins 45 games and they return to the playoffs. They lost to the Sonics in four games, another quick exit. Garnett re-signs with the team for 6 years @ $126M, and in doing so let All-Star Tom Gugliotta and Stephon Marbury WALK from the team, but Garnett still stays. The team finishes at .500 with a record of 25-25 that season, and are again bumped in the first round, this time by San Antonio.

Is that in stark contrast with what we have going-on right now? The difference is not only have we added Hoffa and Bonner, we will add another two young guys this year. That will give us five young players, plus Sow, plus our second-round picks this year, plus our three picks next season. That's practically a whole team. And we're lining-up some serious cap space so that we don't have to let anyone leave the team.

We will probably miss the playoffs this year with a record between 33-36 wins, slightly less than what Minnesota had in Garnett's second season. They got booted from the playoffs anyways.

And you can't even begin to tell me players would rather be in Minnesota than in Toronto. No comparison!

Obviously we won't have to pay Bosh the type of contract that Garnett earned. That was a record-setting one. He hasn't even earned a max contract yet, in my mind, anyways. Maybe another two years will determine that. Regardless, we'll pay him more than anyone else by default.

And not to mention the fact that he is happy, he loves Toronto, and he is a good-natured, intelligent kid. He knows what's going on.

I think all this overly premature talk of him bailing on the team is actually a bit insulting to him.

This isn't to say that the team doesn't have to do anything to impress him, but frankly he isn't the same type of person that we're used to dealing with. He isn't Damon, he isn't Tracy, he isn't 'Tone and he isn't Vince. All of those guys are to self-centred to various degrees. Bosh isn't at all.



> You can't ignore the fact that every star player has left Toronto for better situations.


Better situations?

IMO all four players went to WORSE situations, not better ones. Damon is going to get pushed out the door to make room for Telfair after several years of underachieving, both individually and with the team in general; McGrady left Orlando after they were the worst team in the League last year; the youth movement is reducing Davis' minutes by the bucket-load, and he'll be shown the door when his contract expires; Carter is playing well, but the Nets don't have fans, don't have caproom, and don't have a chance if Kidd still wants to leave this summer.

People need to stop thinking in worst-case scenarios and show a little bit of patience. We might have the most insecure fanbase of any pro sports franchise.


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## MonsterBosh (Feb 9, 2005)

speedythief::

I always enjoy reasoned discussion with an active mind such as yours, but I must say that your Minnesota/Garnett analogy is a non-sequitor "case in point" with respect to the Raptor's situation.

In two years, Bosh should be better than Garnett (if not so already), so why wouldn't Bosh demand and command a similar contract to that of Garnett? If Toronto fans come to watch All-Star Bosh then he should get the $$$$$$ for filling seats. Bosh knows that the Raptors must start winning big if he wants to reach All-Star status, and if those prospects don't pan out he must look elsewhere to play. A simple basketball business decision.

If Raptor's management believe they can fill ACC with "Stupid Torontonians" (q.v. Budweiser_Boy), they could easily pass on Bosh and continue rebuilding on the cheap. It's been done before and besides they will want to recoup their Maple Leaf losses. Giving Bosh a $15M/7 year deal may spook them, and they are somewhat moronic when it comes to basketball (he shoots he scores mentality).

I think it is rather presumptuous of you to attribute any emotional preferences to Bosh and where he may want to play and live. The NBA is a cold business, and I have no doubt that Raptor's mgmnt would trade Bosh if the offer was sweet enough. Bosh's agent will ensure that Chris does not fall into an emotional trap which could cost him his reputation and money. His long-term objective must be to max out his NBA career over the next 10 - 15 years as others have done. No mystery here .... !!!

Yes all the stars who left Toronto by choice or trade went to what they perceived as better situations. If the situation soured, they moved on hopefully to better situations. What you cannot deny, is they were all happy to leave the Raptors. 

The management buys the players and the coach is supposed to make them into a team. Simple formula and it has proven disasterous for the Raptors since their inception. The record speaks for itself ... and the last Raptor's run in the playoffs was just an anomaly. That team quickly disintegrated. 

I cannot join the rah-rah Raptor fans and like them bury my head in the sand leaving my butt facing Heaven. Currently I do not see a clear future for the Raptors based on their poor mngmnt reputation and past decisions that will haunt the Raptors for years to come. That is reality ... and facing reality does not make it a worst-case scenario. Reality hurts and delusion just puts off the worse. I prefer to face the reality of the situation regardless of the scenario.

I know that most on these forums are teenagers who post their feeelings on their monitors, but I refuse to look at the Raptors through rose-colored glasses. Just admit that the Raptors must go through much more rebuilding anguish before the errors and sins of the past are flushed out of the team.

2007-08 .... maybe .....  

(btw ... I didn't know that they gave you guys in Kingston internet access ... go figure ....)


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## Numbed One (Jun 8, 2003)

MonsterBosh said:


> Just admit that the Raptors must go through much more rebuilding anguish before the errors and sins of the past are flushed out of the team.


Uh... I think you'd be hard pressed to find a regular poster who doesn't agree there.

That doesn't mean we have to constantly degrade the team, its players, management, coaches, etc before they even have a chance to put their plans into action. If this team was run by the media/the majority of the fan base, we would trade our entire team and hire a new coach and management on a yearly basis.

Actually, we would probably just fold the team since there are no positives to anything the Raptors ever do.

If you're going to eat up all the crap the media spits out about this team, you're in the wrong place. This board has the most intelligent Raptors fans I've met and they're going to cut you down to size every time you open your mouth.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Numbed One said:


> Uh... I think you'd be hard pressed to find a regular poster who doesn't agree there.
> 
> That doesn't mean we have to constantly degrade the team, its players, management, coaches, etc before they even have a chance to put their plans into action. If this team was run by the media/the majority of the fan base, we would trade our entire team and hire a new coach and management on a yearly basis.
> 
> ...


:werd:

if i wanted to read up some cynical crap about how bad the raptors are, i'd just grab a copy of the Star and read one of --------- garbage articles, or read Barry Davis' internet columns.

sites such as these are the few places that not only know the NBA, but also hold some perspective on the current situation.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I would think everyone around here knows how it works. The only way Bosh leaves the team is if he takes the Stromile Swift route, taking the minimum offer for his 5th year. Stro was pretty much forced to go that way because he wasn't getting the offer sheets thrown his way for a number of reasons and the Grizz weren't offering enough money for his liking. 

Does anyone honestly think this will happen with Bosh? Isn't it MUCH more likely that we sign him to a max (or near max) deal before any offer sheets are on the table? If the Raps do wait to see what he's offered by other teams, they will simply match. 

So the question is, do you honestly think that Bosh will turn his back on the team by taking THEIR minimum offer and staying with THEM for a fifth year?

Besides all that, Babcock is going to continue drafting players that complement Bosh and create the positive attitude that I can already see the seeds of.


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## Vinsanity (May 28, 2002)

We have to RESIGN Bosh...its not an option not to resign him


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

hasn't every single rookie to sign a max deal since the knew rules stayed with their origional team?


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

You've got a lot of different arguments in your post so I'll try to stick to the ones relevant to this discussion.



MonsterBosh said:


> I must say that your Minnesota/Garnett analogy is a non-sequitor "case in point" with respect to the Raptor's situation.
> 
> In two years, Bosh should be better than Garnett (if not so already), so why wouldn't Bosh demand and command a similar contract to that of Garnett? If Toronto fans come to watch All-Star Bosh then he should get the $$$$$$ for filling seats.


If he's as good as Garnett, he deserves the contract. He ain't, and he probably won't be, but for argument's sake, yes, he gets a 'monster' contract.

I think my analogy is a good one because you are basing your opinion that the Raptors have to have all their little ducks in line in order for him to want to stay, whereas Minnesota wasn't half as organized and the city is way inferior to Toronto, yet Garnett stayed without complaint.



> Bosh knows that the Raptors must start winning big if he wants to reach All-Star status, and if those prospects don't pan out he must look elsewhere to play. A simple basketball business decision.


It's a business decision to pass on more money and go somewhere else to become an All-Star? Sounds more like a personal decision. Strictly from a business standpoint, Bosh can make more money in Toronto because they can offer him a bigger contract and because he can be the endorsement face of basketball in Canada, while retaining some marketability in Texas and Georgia. Most other markets he would go to would either be smaller than Toronto, or he'd be second-fiddle on the team. In a business sense, his best option is to stay in Toronto, or wait for a major-market team to trade-away it's star and go there. Not too many situations like that available.



> If Raptor's management believe they can fill ACC with "Stupid Torontonians" (q.v. Budweiser_Boy), they could easily pass on Bosh and continue rebuilding on the cheap. It's been done before and besides they will want to recoup their Maple Leaf losses. Giving Bosh a $15M/7 year deal may spook them, and they are somewhat moronic when it comes to basketball (he shoots he scores mentality).


I don't think this argument has any weight. If Bosh blossoms into the player you think he will, or may already be, the chances of the franchise just saying 'no' are extremely small.

As for his contract size, we'll see what he earns. Too early to make accurate estimates.



> I think it is rather presumptuous of you to attribute any emotional preferences to Bosh and where he may want to play and live. The NBA is a cold business, and I have no doubt that Raptor's mgmnt would trade Bosh if the offer was sweet enough. Bosh's agent will ensure that Chris does not fall into an emotional trap which could cost him his reputation and money. His long-term objective must be to max out his NBA career over the next 10 - 15 years as others have done. No mystery here .... !!!


I'm basing my opinion on things Bosh has said outright, so I don't think it's presumptuous at all. At least not as presumptuous as assuming that he is going to leave should everything not be perfect. At least I'm basing my opinion on something solid (as you could get under the circumstances); you're basing yours on predictions.



> Yes all the stars who left Toronto by choice or trade went to what they perceived as better situations. If the situation soured, they moved on hopefully to better situations. What you cannot deny, is they were all happy to leave the Raptors.


And none of them are Chris Bosh.



> The management buys the players and the coach is supposed to make them into a team. Simple formula and it has proven disasterous for the Raptors since their inception. The record speaks for itself ... and the last Raptor's run in the playoffs was just an anomaly. That team quickly disintegrated.


I'm not sure what part of this relates to this debate.



> I cannot join the rah-rah Raptor fans and like them bury my head in the sand leaving my butt facing Heaven. Currently I do not see a clear future for the Raptors based on their poor mngmnt reputation and past decisions that will haunt the Raptors for years to come. That is reality ... and facing reality does not make it a worst-case scenario. Reality hurts and delusion just puts off the worse. I prefer to face the reality of the situation regardless of the scenario.


Can't see a clear future, fine. But you are still seeing a dark one. The reality you face isn't the only possible outcome, though. There are many possible outcomes, not all of which are negative. If you were truly a realist, the unpredictability of the situation would lead to you being more open-minded towards the direction of the team. Rob isn't Glen, Sam isn't Lenny, and Chris isn't ____. What we do know is that we have lots of first-round picks, lots of cap space on the horizon, and a fanbase that hasn't abandoned the team so far and isn't likely to anytime soon.



> I know that most on these forums are teenagers who post their feeelings on their monitors, but I refuse to look at the Raptors through rose-colored glasses. Just admit that the Raptors must go through much more rebuilding anguish before the errors and sins of the past are flushed out of the team.


Sure.



> (btw ... I didn't know that they gave you guys in Kingston internet access ... go figure ....)


The guards let us use the computer in exchange for... well, we have a deal worked out, anyways.


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## MonsterBosh (Feb 9, 2005)

speedythief ... my oh my you are a persistent lil' critter here on this fine forum, and you have a taste for good debate too !!! Okay let's rumble ... !!!

1. I will go out so far as to say that currently Bosh is better than Garnett based on his production and effort level. The only reason Bosh does not now get the same recognition as Garnett is because Bosh plays on the Raptors. Anywhere else and he is a recognized young star who is mentioned in the US sports media. Bosh is lost in Toronto which is a basketball backwater as far as the Yanks are concerned.

2. You depend on your "case in point" using the example of Garnett's relationship to Minnesota. To assume that Bosh has the same relationship to Toronto is a stretch. That's why I call your example a non-sequitor arguement ... it doesn't connect Bosh to Toronto. What Garnett does in Minnesota is entirely irrelevant to Bosh's situation, other than Garnett's contract because Bosh is always being compared to Garnett.

3. Bosh will not stay in Toronto if the Raptors do not back him up with winning team players so that he can achieve All-Star status. He won't get enough All-Star votes playing in Toronto as he could get playing for a US team, and that's a fact. Carter got voted in because he was the fan's Dunk Champion and had explosive moves to match his "attitude". Vince was one mean dude .... unless he got injured and then slacked off.

4. You seem to have more faith in the Raptor's management than I do, given their abominable record of failure to stabilize the franchise. Perhaps you know something that I don't know about their management, who I blame for the team's travails. The players are doing their best, but if they can't blend into a winning team with their particular skills then I think you must point the finger at the management for assembling this group of NBA player for the Raptors. Seems obvious to me .....

5. Bosh, Marshall and Bonner too, are saying the right things about Toronto because they know that the Raptors may make some sort of offer for their services, and the more the better. As any smart businessman in the NBA, they will use the Raptor's offer as leverage when they shop their skills to other teams. Besides they know that by endearing themselves to the Raptor fans, the management will be under extreme pressure to keep them in Toronto. They are just applying good business PR by saying they "love TO". Besides, the NBA and Stern has told all the US players to say good things while in the only international NBA team ... not like Davis and the metric system ... !!!

6. I can't see a clear future for the rebuilding of the Raptors when looking at their salary structure and future contract commitments to the players currently on and off the team. Their financial situation just looks terrible with little flexibility for trading their veteran bench-sitters who cannot contribute much to team effectiveness. I mean just look at the salaries and contracts and tell me how the Raptors can extricate themselves from this mess within 2 years? So far you have offered nothing substantive in the way of resolving the logjam on the Raptors roster. In 2 years Bosh will have to make a decision and if you project the future from the current situation, it looks dark if not disasterous. Perhaps you can help me on this and tell us how you would realistically resolve this situation if you were the Raptor's GM?

7. Too bad about your Kingston situation, and I guess you only have a "faint hope" of ever attending a Raptor's game at the ACC. At least you have TV (and I hear you have the Playboy Channel too ..!!!)

Best regards and thanks for the stimulating debate .... but I think I just won based on my point count per posting. Last I looked, I accumulate 276.3 point for only 42 posts, while you only have a measley 136.7 points for 5275 points. I rack up 6.58 points per post while you only achieve 0.026 points per post ... which means I get 250 times more points per post than you do !!! On that basis I am blowing you out of the forum ... assuming that it's good to accumulate points (how do you get them anyway?!). :angel:


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

*MonsterBosh*

Care to reply to my post? Do you honestly think that Bosh will take the Stromile Swift route?


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## MonsterBosh (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: MonsterBosh*



SkywalkerAC said:


> Care to reply to my post? Do you honestly think that Bosh will take the Stromile Swift route?


It's a possibility Sky .... if the Raptors do not satisfy Bosh's expectations by the summer of 2006 when the Raptors must pick up the option on his contract. I think the Raptors would be forced to trade an unhappy Bosh rather than hold him to an unacceptable situation in Toronto. You can only expect so much from star players if the team management continues to botch up year after year.

I don't think it would only be a salary difference that would sour Bosh on the Raptors. It would be unsuccessful draft choices and not being able to attract good veterans to Toronto. This is an entirely possible scenario because Toronto has not distinguished itself as a successful player franchise. And you better believe that Bosh, through his agent, is making demands on the Raptor management telling them what to do to satisfy Bosh's desires for the team. Bosh is holding the hammer even now and is using it to influence Raptor management. That's just normal NBA business tactics ....

What do you think a 25/10/5 power forward will be worth in 2007 when Bosh would be a free agent? What does he have to do to increase his marketability? Certainly playing with the Raptors does not increase his overall NBA fan support. He is being overlooked by the NBA media because he is in Toronto .. plain and simple. Toronto may be the centre of the Canadian universe, but it is just a basketball backwater in a country that is politically anti-American.

If you were Bosh and you wanted to advance your NBA career, what would you do?? I think that is the relevant question here. Stay or leave? Honestly if I were Bosh I would be planning to leave Toronto and Canada asap because he can have a much happier and better life as an NBA All-Star in the USA.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Yeah, sorry but Bosh isn't going to force a trade while still on his rookie contract. It's just not going to happen. Toronto will offer a max contract and Bosh will accept. If the Raptors can't surround him with the right players to move forward during this time, he may push for a trade then, as Vince did, but the chances of him doing so before getting his max contract are EXTREMELY low. Nothing's impossible but Babcock trading away Bosh rather than inking him is as close as it gets.


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

By 2006 we should have four first round picks. Three likely lotto, possibly all of them. And only one bad contract that isn't ending (alvins)

Young talent and a good looking cap situation. Not sure whats so gloomy about that.

most important, it's just a short go-train trip to downtown Whitby


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