# Re-evaluation time: Luol Deng



## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

I like Luol Deng. 

I've kinda held this in because I think Luol Deng is the best combination of talent and jib on the team. But I've been in Chicago for over two weeks now and I'm COMPLETELY unimpressed with Luol Deng. I mean, he doesn't suck, but I think that the things mentioned about him before his draft are sort of coming to fruition. Not a great or even very good athlete, not strong, lacks quickness, not great upside. And then I watched him play tonight, and just like this whole team, I didn't see how he was the poster child for the right way. He looked fundamentally average out there to me. Just like many of the players on this team who are professed to be John Wooden reborn into better athletes, he isn't even close to being fundamentally as sound as even a young Joe Dumars. 

At this point (just like on draft day), I'd rather have Andre Iguodala than Luol Deng (and definitely Ben Gordon). I feel that Paxson wrote Iguodala off because he was not known for jib at Arizona. I really don't feel that the Bulls gave him quite the look they gave Gordon and Duhon. AND in the alternative, IF someone asserts they did, I think that they look like real idiots for not picking him. Would we need a big SG if we had Andre Iguodala? Or even a SMALL shooting guard (the dagger question)?! Nope. That is kinda separate, but honestly, how good is Ben Gordon? How good is a player when you still need a starter at his professed position (and believe me, we do). 

Honestly, who is a better athlete than Andre Iguodala on this team? And who has more jib? To me Iguodala has a better combination of both than anyone on our team by far. That's kinda sad on a team that supposedly has such a great future, full of us hording our assets, capspace and picks as we laugh like Scrooge at all the other NBA teams.

*So the question. How good is Luol Deng? Here is your amnesty. Did you overrate Luol Deng? Did you underrate him? Did you rate him just write? Jump in the pot, tell us how you rated Deng, and give us your revised scouting report on Deng.*

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BTW, theory on why we don't get calls. MAYBE, just maybe, the NBA and the officials of the NBA don't really want to hear a young coach, young GM and a bunch of guys in their young-mid twenties walking around sort of arrogantly looking down their nose and professing to have the holy grail about how they do things the "right way." I'm sure a lot of officials kind of look at that and laugh. 

Maybe they're coming off like the kid whose clothes are too nice to play with the other kids. They seem to walk around with this arrogance about them. You won't see the Bulls laughing it up with other players on every team before the game. They're too busy walking around trying to imitate that balding coach with the emotional disorder. They seem to be guilty of being "not one of the guys."


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I'm a big Duke and Bulls fan, and I've seen a decent amount of Deng. Honestly, I wanted AI and Deng in the draft. 

I watch gamecasts mostly for Bulls games, since I'm an outsider. However, I believe we have had two losses this year because of a key turnover by Deng at the end of the game. The game vs Utah, and another game where he had a 5 sec violation on an inbounds pass. He failed to call a timeout, I think.

I think Deng is a guy who will be average/solid. He can give you 10 pts, 6 rbs, and like 1.5 steals. He isn't anyone who will take control of the game. He seems too passive with his jumpshot. The other day vs Mil, he went for a layup instead of a dunk, luckily Tyson was there to clean it up. Iggy would have shoved that ball down the opposing team's throat with a dunk.

I believe Iggy plays better D than either Deng or Ben. His scoring is at Deng's level or slightly better. Ben is by far a better shooter, but he doesn't get to the FT line enough. He settles way too much with the floater, and doesn't use his strength to get body contact. He should watch Iverson.

If we get the #1 overall pick, I really want Aldridge, but I would probably draft Gay. I would trade Deng, and our #1 pick to move up in the draft to try to get Aldridge.

Deng is going to be a key role player, but not a superstar or star to lead this team to win a playoff series. Ben Gordon has that potential, but he has to learn to score in other ways (FT line).

Also about us not getting the respect of the Refs, we don't deserve their respect. Granted, I have a small sample size of Bulls games to analyze, but we seem like pu$$ies out there. We are STRICTLY a JUMP SHOOTING team. Our big men are not true big men. They take J's. Chandler is as good inside as a guy with no hands. Malik, Darius, all shoot long J's. Ben goes for a tear drop. It serve's no purpose that he can bench what, like 400 lbs. Iverson didn't lift weights till the year he got to the finals, and he still ATTACKED the rim prior to that year. Kirk once in a while goes for a layup. 

This is why I advocate a guy like Gay in place of Deng. Gay would go for the dunk, not a layup or a floater.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Pippenatorade said:


> I like Luol Deng.
> 
> I've kinda held this in because I think Luol Deng is the best combination of talent and jib on the team. But I've been in Chicago for over two weeks now and I'm COMPLETELY unimpressed with Luol Deng. I mean, he doesn't suck, but I think that the things mentioned about him before his draft are sort of coming to fruition. Not a great or even very good athlete, not strong, lacks quickness, not great upside. And then I watched him play tonight, and just like this whole team, I didn't see how he was the poster child for the right way. He looked fundamentally average out there to me. Just like many of the players on this team who are professed to be John Wooden reborn into better athletes, he isn't even close to being fundamentally as sound as even a young Joe Dumars.
> 
> ...



Good post, but I disagree with your reasons on why the Bulls don't get calls. You don't get calls unless you are an established player. Plus we hack a lot. However, Deng has seemingly regressed this year and suddenly Adam Morrison is looking really, really good. And I can't disagree with you more on Ben Gordon. Gordon is in my mind entrenched at the 2 for a long time.


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## p_s (Jul 21, 2004)

I wanted Iggy on draft day with the number 7 pick. I was looking forward to a Livingston-Iggy draft and was woefully disappointed. Both Gordon and Deng have key deficiencies that will assure that they will never be superstar caliber players. Deng is to unathletic and awkward with the ball. Gordon's handle is poor and he is short. 

I am all for trading either or both on Draft day for players that have greater potential -- either draftees or players in the L now.


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## mr.ankle20 (Mar 7, 2004)

I do not understand igoudala hype at all , people act like he his a superstar. he's just a glorified roleplayer on these boards ,


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

I personally believe Rudy Gay would be our LONG TERM solution at SF for the next decade.

I really like Luol Deng though but he needs to QUIT shooting so many damn 18 footers. He's becoming a jumpshooter and it's NOT pretty. When he goes to the basket and slashes or posts up with his little overhand hook, that's when he's INCREDIBLY effective. That's the guy we need ALL the time which is why I prefer GAY!

Honestly, I think we should draft Gay REGARDLESS cuz since next year is Noc's last in his contract, we'd atleast be able to weigh our options, especially if he decides to go back HOME.

a Gay/Deng SF tandem would MURDER the nba..


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Livingston looks real good. He just needs to add bulk. Howard and Livingston could very well end up being the best players in the draft, as scouts predicted.

I knew we wouldn't go for Livingston, w/the little success 'The Towers' had shown at the time. 

Pax and Skiles are not risk takers. This summer, we will only take kids from winning programs. We will draft kids who you know can get you 10 and 10, but do not have the potential of getting you that 20 and 10. Same with our FA signings. We will become a team good enough to make the playoffs, but never to go far.

Thats my honest opinion on where I think this team is headed.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Livingston is hot GARBAGE right now.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Livingston has alot of potential... he dished off something like 8 dimes last night. You give that kid playing time, and develop his body, and he is already better than both Deng and Gordon combined. Livingston is most certainly not 'hot garbage'.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

If Gay is available, we have to take him. I like Aldridge, but we be able to find another quality bigman via the draft AND FA. 

Livingston is not great, but he shows potential. I know, it's such a bad word. Few players fulfill their potential. I may have wanted Livingston, but he wasn't the right pick for the team. Our team should be moving forward with talent ready to contribute ASAP. I'm happy with our picks, but we will need a few roster changes to take it to another step. 

I wouldn't mind trading Deng, our 1st, the NYK 2nd rounders, and our trade exception to move up and get Aldridge/Gay.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

I'm glad to see other people don't have Deng so high up on their pedestal. 


> If we get the #1 overall pick, I really want Aldridge, but I would probably draft Gay. I would trade Deng, and our #1 pick to move up in the draft to try to get Aldridge.


Great idea, though it'll probably take a bit more than Deng to upgrade our pick that high. Idealy I'd love to get both Aldridge and Gay, but realistically I think we probably should be trying to trade our pick up and net Carney instead, as I'm still cautious on picking Morrison.

Idealy: Gay and Alridge
Realistically: Morrison and Carney (hopefully we're lucky and get the #1, but I don't see Charlotte passing up Gay for Morrison).


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Pippenatorade said:


> I like Luol Deng.
> 
> I've kinda held this in because I think Luol Deng is the best combination of talent and jib on the team. But I've been in Chicago for over two weeks now and I'm COMPLETELY unimpressed with Luol Deng. I mean, he doesn't suck, but I think that the things mentioned about him before his draft are sort of coming to fruition. Not a great or even very good athlete, not strong, lacks quickness, not great upside. And then I watched him play tonight, and just like this whole team, I didn't see how he was the poster child for the right way. He looked fundamentally average out there to me. Just like many of the players on this team who are professed to be John Wooden reborn into better athletes, he isn't even close to being fundamentally as sound as even a young Joe Dumars.
> 
> ...


I was at the 2004 NBA draft with Such Sweet Thunder, and before we picked at #3, I stood up and screamed "IGUODALA!!!!" People looked at me a little funny, but most of the people there seemed to be from Dwight Howard's high school anyway. He had a huge delegation there. I screamed again for Iggy before the #7 pick, but I clapped lightly with the pick of Deng, a player I liked. 

Two years later, Iggy is the hyper athletic wing we lack, and Deng's solid but unspectacular play (along with some boneheaded moments) has been nearly matched by the overacheiving Nocioni. Right now, I think a lineup including Gordon (1/2), Iguodala (2/3) and Nocioni (3/4) would be more veratile than what we have to put out there right now. Nevertheless, at this point, I'd have a hard time projecting which of the 2004 draftees will have the best career.

You are wrong thought that Paxson did not take a look at Iggy. He had him in for two separate workouts, and at the time there were rumors of a secret third workout.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Rudy Gay is our savior. Has anybody watched UConn this year? He's talented, but man big time players don't disappear down the stretch like Gay does. Gimme Aldridge or Morrison with our top pick and Brewer or Brandon Roy with our lower pick.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Livingston has alot of potential... he dished off something like 8 dimes last night. You give that kid playing time, and develop his body, and he is already better than both Deng and Gordon combined. Livingston is most certainly not 'hot garbage'.


He's not garbage, but you have to question his ability to keep healthy. I'm not too excited about a 20 year old that already has back troubles.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

T.Shock said:


> Rudy Gay is our savior. Has anybody watched UConn this year? He's talented, but man big time players don't disappear down the stretch like Gay does. Gimme Aldridge or Morrison with our top pick and Brewer or Brandon Roy with our lower pick.


An Aldridge/Brewer draft is my dream draft right now.

If we end up picking a wing with our NY pick (Morrison, Gay), I'd consider us lucky to pick up Sheldon Williams with our pick, especially if he's at least a legit 6' 9" and his arms measure out pretty long.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

step said:


> I'm glad to see other people don't have Deng so high up on their pedestal.
> 
> Great idea, though it'll probably take a bit more than Deng to upgrade our pick that high. Idealy I'd love to get both Aldridge and Gay, but realistically I think we probably should be trying to trade our pick up and net Carney instead, as I'm still cautious on picking Morrison.
> 
> ...


I'm very afraid it goes" 1. Charlotte - Gay, 2. Atlanta - Aldridge

I am so against Morrison and JJ. Great college players, but I don't see them as great NBA players.

Yeah, Deng would not be enough, but I'd throw away a future 1st, and a few 2nd rounders, cash, and our trade exception to get Aldridge.

Has a team ever got the 1st and 2nd pick overall? Gay is the only one who may have SUPERSTAR written all over him. I've seen the kid play. He can shoot yet he will piss over you by dunking it in your face. He can do it all on the court. I cannot get a great gauge of Aldridge, since Tucker and Gibson don't pass. However, from the little I've seen, he seems great. A young Fyre/Bosh.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

I'm not too high on Deng either. He's ok, but I've read a number of posts praising his basketball "IQ" in particular, and I honestly don't know where that label came from. Is it because he went to Duke? Was it because the knock on him coming out of the draft was his lack of athleticism, so people had to come up with other ways to pump up his game? I don't know where all this high IQ talk came from. 

The Bulls did plenty of homework on Iguodala. Prior to the draft, they held private workouts with him at the Berto Center twice. I was very surprised when Pax didn't take him with one of our picks. 

If Rudy Gay is the best player available at our pick, I say we take him. Deng or Nocioni could very easily be packaged in a future deal to acquire someone else.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

The MAMBA said:


> Livingston has alot of potential... he dished off something like 8 dimes last night. You give that kid playing time, and develop his body, and he is already better than both Deng and Gordon combined. Livingston is most certainly not 'hot garbage'.


RIGHT NOW he is trash....

i didn't say he didn't have potential


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

The sad thing is, I currently like Nocioni more than Deng, but Deng is only 20. If the kid could add like 10-15 lbs of muscle and add a post game, he would be pretty good. I can keep dreaming right?

The question is, what kind of contracts do Noce and Deng warrant when they become FAs? I believe Nocioni would get a lot of attention from contending teams. Would he get the MLE next year? What is his value?

We got to ask ourselves these questions when trading any of them away. I certainly don't want to overpay all our guys who are currently on rookie contracts. This will be the last year for a long time which we have LOTS of OPTIONS.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Right now Rudy Gay/Shelden Williams is MY ideal draft...

Shelden won't score more than 10-12 pts a game in the pro's but he'll do SOOO much more than score for us. 

My problem with Aldrige is, I don't know WHAT he is. When I watch him play he looks anything from a SF to a C. He looks incredibly weak also.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

I am a big Deng fan, and I can't see him flourishing here, or anywhere for this matter. He really isn't that smart on the floor, and he doesn't seem to workout too hard in the offseason. His akward athleticism isn't good at all. He misses too many open shots, and he can't make a layup. His defense has been lackluster, and he's been a huge dissapointment this year. If we can wheel and deal for Pierce, we could go long term with a lineup of Gordon-Hinrich-Pierce in the 1-3 spots. I wanted Deng in the draft, but now I am thinking otherwise with his uninspiring play.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

sloth said:


> I am a big Deng fan, and I can't see him flourishing here, or anywhere for this matter. He really isn't that smart on the floor, and he doesn't seem to workout too hard in the offseason. His akward athleticism isn't good at all. He misses too many open shots, and he can't make a layup. His defense has been lackluster, and he's been a huge dissapointment this year. If we can wheel and deal for Pierce, we could go long term with a lineup of Gordon-Hinrich-Pierce in the 1-3 spots. I wanted Deng in the draft, but now I am thinking otherwise with his uninspiring play.


I started to fall out of favor with Deng over the course of this season but he does do things that always make me glad he's on our team. At the same time, I just feel like Rudy Gay would seriously be our answer at SF. He's everything we need and he isn't even fully developed yet. He can shoot, rebound, defend, block, steal, he's un-selfish, he's a coach's dream IMO. I'd love to have Gay & Deng but I don't think there's enuff minutes for the both of them unless Deng got SG minutes.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> I'm very afraid it goes" 1. Charlotte - Gay, 2. Atlanta - Aldridge


All those years the Bulls had the worst record in the league or close to it, I never realized how crappily the lottery is set up for the teams with the worst or second-worst record (or maybe I just felt it'd be unseemly to complain about it). 

If the Knicks finish with the worst record, we'd have a significantly better chance of ending up at #4 than at #1 (36% to 25%). We'd have a significantly better chance of ending up at #3 or #4 than at #1 or #2 (54-46). 

That's kind of crazy. I think the league needs to pare down the lottery so that only the three or four worst teams are in it. That ought to be enough to discourage tanking, but it doesn't unduly penalize the truly wretched team that needs a shot at impact players.

On topic: I thought that Deng would be not only a terrific one-on-one defender, but that he'd also be a disruptive and incredibly effective help defender. He has disappointed me mightily in both areas.

Offensively, I still can't get a read on him. I still think he has an excellent foundation for a sound jump shot out to and beyond the arc. He's a pretty capable ballhandler (not creator) and slasher who can finish the break. However, as I said in the game thread tonight, I think that some of the criticisms of his athleticism going into the draft were valid. He's not strong or amazingly quick and lacks explosion if he doesn't have a running start.

I'm not sure where he tops out, but my estimation of his ceiling seems to get lower by the day. Hopefully he refines his jumpshot, gets some semblance of an effective and repeatable post game, and works on hard on being a better team player on both sides of the ball. I'd thought he'd become a very solid second banana and borderline All-Star player on a very good team. That looks unlikely at this point.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Its simple: If we are 3rd, and Aldrige and Gay are gone, you can either take bargani, or trade the pick for a lower pick and the option to swap picks in 2007, or for the pick outright if someone sees somebody they really like (Orlando will be looking for a SF, and Morrison might be enough to entice them to give up their 2007 pick....and lets face it....they'll stink again next year).

Otherwise, these are the remaining players I'd consider:

Carney or Brewer (if you do that, you HAVE to take Williams with the 2nd pick).
Morrison (Williams)

Thomas
Bargani

Frankly I don't like any of those options, and I would be very much in favor of trading Deng, but not unless its gonna net us a sure thing.

FTR--I've been disappointed with Deng since his first game of the season.....

EDIT: I'd also like to add that (for all the Igoudala lovers out there), if you exchange Iggy or Livingston for Gordon straight up, not only do we NOT make the playoffs last year, but both cases we are a LOCK for a top 4 lottery pick with OUR OWN pick.

WE wouldn't be able to SCORE on ANYONE.


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## giantkiller7 (Feb 9, 2006)

just throwing this out there: Luol is averaging better #s than Iggy this season.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

But Iggy is having a bigger impact on his team.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

And Iggy would have even bigger numbers if he was switched in place of Luol. Luol is a role player at best... no use trying to build him into a "superstar"...kid just doesn't have that kind of talent.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

I'm liking the idea of Shelden with our pick, but looking at some mock drafts now, we'd have to be extremely lucky to obtain him.

With luck and a trade (I'm looking at Toronto), I'm hoping we get Gay and Carney/Williams.

Deng, cash and our pick for Eric Williams and their pick?


> The troubled Toronto Raptors have another problem to deal with -- forward Eric Williams wants out. In the wake of another dispute between point guard Rafer Alston and coach Sam Mitchell, Williams wants to be traded to a team that will use him.


He wants to play, so hopefully he'd see he wouldn't get any minutes here and decline his player option, if not, it just adds to our collection of expiring contracts in 07.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Deng was not able to improve significantly during the offseason due to injury. Hopefully this offseason he gains some muscle and works on his handle a bit. I think it's a bit early to give up on him and his potential star power.


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## giantkiller7 (Feb 9, 2006)

I'm growing tired of everyones' impatience on the board. The guy has played a year and a half, and missed significant time during the season and the offseason due to injury.

"omfg ben and luol aren't hall of famers after a year and a half!!!! trade them!!!!" No.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> Deng was not able to improve significantly during the offseason due to injury. Hopefully this offseason he gains some muscle and works on his handle a bit. I think it's a bit early to give up on him and his potential star power.


Agreed. Yea, I was pulling for Deng at #3 (and Iggy at #7). And I think Deng still has a very nice future. I'm going to give him a full summer of weights b/f I lower my expectations too, too much.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

Hopefully Deng wont be the eternal promise...


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## 4door (Sep 5, 2005)

I think Deng is really going to be a great 6th man for us, once Ben becomes a starter everyday and we draft Gay/Morrison with out high pick. I think both of those guys will have better careers in the NBA. I think Shelden Williams would be a steal at 9 or 10 with our other pick. 

PF Williams Songalia Sweetney
SF Morrison/Gay Nocioni
C Chandler Harrington XXXX Ely?
SG Gordon Deng
PG Hinrich Duhon

Deng becomes a swing player that can be plugged in as a SG/SF/PF almost like Josh Smith but hopefully much better. Our future at SF lies in Gay/Morrison.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

I've always had doubts about Lou's upside in terms of him being a big star type guy, but one thing people have conveniently not mentioned in this thread is the fact that the offseason was basically lost to him in March of last year when he ended needing surgery on his wrist. People talk about his lack of improvement, and one person even said it seems like he doesn't work hard in the offseason, but neglect the fact that he couldn't lift weights to gain strength, couldn't play competitive ball, and until earlier this month, he couldn't even put in extra time shooting. You know if he couldn't even do extra shooting until midseason, then he definitely couldn't work on it in the offseason. So really, there was little he could've done in the offseason to improve either his skillset or physique.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> until earlier this month, he couldn't even put in extra time shooting.


So he can play on games, train but can't put in extra time shooting? I believe that was more in regards to the weight training.


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## UMfan83 (Jan 15, 2003)

Luol is 20 years old with 1 year of college, and about 1.5 years in the NBA. Most of the deficiencies you guys are talking about are things that can be corrected with experience. Don't sit there and get ready to throw Deng to the wolves. I'm not saying let's go be "Chandler/Curry" patient, but you gotta give the kid more then 1.5 years before giving up on him.

I'm as frustrated about the Bulls as most here, but you gotta look at how sunny our future looks here. We have a young core, we have potentially 2 lottery picks next year, potentially another 1-2 lottery picks in 2007, we have cap space to use this year, etc etc. I know you guys are really down on Pax, but if there was an offseason to define Pax, this will be the one. This time, lets not bring Benny down to O'Hare ok?


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## giantkiller7 (Feb 9, 2006)

step said:


> So he can play on games, train but can't put in extra time shooting? I believe that was more in regards to the weight training.


Sure. He isn't well enough to shoot for an extended period of time, or a lot, which shooting outside of games and regular practice would involve. Why does that not make sense?


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> Deng was not able to improve significantly during the offseason due to injury. Hopefully this offseason he gains some muscle and works on his handle a bit. I think it's a bit early to give up on him and his potential star power.


I agree, but there were also reports that Luol spent much of the offseason working on his left hand, since there wasn't much else he could really do. I haven't seen him show any improvement in regards to that.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> You are wrong thought that Paxson did not take a look at Iggy. He had him in for two separate workouts, and at the time there were rumors of a secret third workout.


OK and I anticipated this line of thinking when I said that if he did look at him, he's an even bigger idiot for not drafting him.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

deng is a good player, he seems like a great kid but he's no superstar .

the best news i heard about him this season is that the bulls coaching staff considers him selfish, which gives me hope he can be a star ...but i doubt it...

its just a rule good scorers have to have selfish streaks or they are wasting their talent.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

My estimation of Deng's ceiling might be slightly different now than it was in the past, but I am not anywhere near ready to reevaluate him as being just a role player for his whole career. He does have a solid bball IQ, but he still makes young mistakes. His confidence in his offense isn't consistent yet, and I still haven't figured out whether the Bulls ever run plays designed specifically for him to try to score. Usually it seems like he gets his shots when he just realizes he's open, or dribbles towards the basket and sees an opening - other players aren't setting screens for him to get open much or isolating for him. He's a decent defender, but not a stopper, and he seems to occasionally get lost when he's on the weak side or needs to provide help. And his athleticism, while perhaps slightly above average, isn't good enough for him to finish at the rim with real explosion.

I still think he's on his way to being an 18-20ppg, 46%fg, 7rpg, 3apg kind of guy and an asset to any team's defense. Nothing's changed that. His numbers have improved some this year over last, and that's after an offseason where he couldn't shoot the ball until camp. He's 20 and has plenty of time to smooth over the kinks in his game.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Crap, I'm REALLY surprised how many people have forgotten that Luol was injured like ALL off-season.

I think his lack of off-season work has caught up with him...he got off to a good enough start this year, but he looks worn down. Am I the only one not surprised?

Give him 1, maybe even 2 or 3, more off-seasons to put in strength, ballhandling, and shooting drills. I guarentee you this kid will be everything Tayshaun Prince is...maybe even better in some areas (I think Luol is a slightly better athlete than Prince, which leads me to believe this). In any case, I think he'll become a near clone of Prince, in that he has an excellent all-around game but not a superstar in any one area. That's fine, because that's the sort of player who wins championships.

I only ask for a little patience though...his wrist injury last year was a VERY significant setback. Imagine trying to get through an 82-game season with virtually zero off-season work, and at the age of 20 no less.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Crap, I'm REALLY surprised how many people have forgotten that Luol was injured like ALL off-season.
> 
> I think his lack of off-season work has caught up with him...he got off to a good enough start this year, but he looks worn down. Am I the only one not surprised?
> 
> ...


Luol should have been able to do conditioning work in the offseason with a wrist injury, no? Obviously he couldn't play ball for a while though.

He's disappointing me somewhat with his lack of development (the best stretch in his career, IMO, was his first 20 games as a rookie), but I'm still glad we have him on the team, and I'm not burning to trade him. That being said, I'd definitely package him for a star. His lack of killer instinct and his softness at the rim is really concerning to me. Killer instinct is one of those traits that is difficult to develop. In some individuals, it needs to be tempered, and that's probably a better place to start if you've got a developing young star.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Luol should have been able to do conditioning work in the offseason with a wrist injury, no? Obviously he couldn't play ball for a while though.
> 
> He's disappointing me somewhat with his lack of development (the best stretch in his career, IMO, was his first 20 games as a rookie), but I'm still glad we have him on the team, and I'm not burning to trade him. That being said, I'd definitely package him for a star. His lack of killer instinct and his softness at the rim is really concerning to me. Killer instinct is one of those traits that is difficult to develop. In some individuals, it needs to be tempered, and that's probably a better place to start if you've got a developing young star.


I could be wrong, but I thought Luol was very limited with his conditioning work because he was not allowed to work up a sweat while the injury was healing. Richard Jefferson had similar restraints while recovering from his wrist surgery. Also, Luol injured his shooting hand and could not shoot until roughly training camp.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Luol should have been able to do conditioning work in the offseason with a wrist injury, no? Obviously he couldn't play ball for a while though.
> 
> He's disappointing me somewhat with his lack of development (the best stretch in his career, IMO, was his first 20 games as a rookie), but I'm still glad we have him on the team, and I'm not burning to trade him. That being said, I'd definitely package him for a star. His lack of killer instinct and his softness at the rim is really concerning to me. Killer instinct is one of those traits that is difficult to develop. In some individuals, it needs to be tempered, and that's probably a better place to start if you've got a developing young star.


He definitely couldn't do a lot of the strength stuff; lifting takes a huge toll on the wrists and he certainly couldn't work on shooting, which is where he could use the most work.

I agree that he just hasn't figured out his role yet. I think he's be perfect as a sort of "big guard" in a high-low with a post player, because of his long arms and his size that would enable him to really pass over the defense and hit guys with lob passes, or face up for a much more manageable shot. 

Another way of saying this: Deng should be our most important cutter on the floor at all times. Unfortunately, I mostly see him get the ball near the arc, not in the paint where he can really use his size and soft hands to his advantage. Nocioni, who was much rougher offensively last year, has shown an uncanny ability to move without the ball this year, something that Deng will also pick up (he knows it, I'm sure, but it's much tougher to actually DO it).

I've said it before, but Deng does look lost in the offense. But I think that throwing him into the heart of things by running him more plays or giving him more looks is not the answer. On many nights he's taking 12-15 shots anyway. I think he can slow down... we have PLENTY of time to develop him into a stud player. 

At the very worst, he's the next Shane Battier (a player I love). At the best, he can be something special, sort of a Lamar Odom except a quicker defender and one who doesn't play as big and strong as Odom does.


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## unBULLievable (Dec 13, 2002)

sloth said:


> I am a big Deng fan, and I can't see him flourishing here, or anywhere for this matter. He really isn't that smart on the floor, and he doesn't seem to workout too hard in the offseason. His akward athleticism isn't good at all. He misses too many open shots, and he can't make a layup. His defense has been lackluster, and he's been a huge dissapointment this year. If we can wheel and deal for Pierce, we could go long term with a lineup of Gordon-Hinrich-Pierce in the 1-3 spots. I wanted Deng in the draft, but now I am thinking otherwise with his uninspiring play.


The guy couldn't workout with a broken wrist.

He took the cast off in mid August


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

By no means am I attacking Luol Deng here. But to all the people who say "give this guy 3 more offseasons" and then want to get into a deal with you about how he couldn't do anything last summer, I say the same thing I say to Chandler fans:

WHAT HAPPENED TO NO EXCUSES?

Guess that mantra kind of walked out the door with Eddy Curry huh? 

What I'm saying about Deng, is that forget work ethic. He has it. EVEN with it, he just isn't nearly as good as many Bulls fans think, and doesn't have close to the potential they think he has. He's a good kid. He's gonna be a good solid starter in this league. He's not a role playing, benchwarming scrub.

I just don't see him EVER EVER EVER being better than Chuck Person for example. To me the gap between Luol Deng and GLEN RICE is considerable, and that's a good thing for LUOL. It's not a good thing for guys who've said that Luol has the chance to be the eventual equal of SFs far superior to Rice, and believe me, that stuff is out there.

So I just want to know. Who does Luol remind most of you of? I say a poor man's Chuck Person. Or maybe Glen Rice mixed with Vinny Del *****.


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## big_kev_at_oz (Feb 23, 2006)

deng = quiet achiever


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

I definatly wanted Iggy....BUT...I'm gonna hold off my evaluation on Luol til this time NEXT season.

Keep in mind...He couldn't even really work on his game due to injury...I want to see how he comes out after he has the offseason to improve.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

I've wavered on Deng a bit this season. But before the season I predicted he'd tread water this year because of his wrist injury. And he basically has. 

That said, I've openly advocated drafting either Gay or Morrison (if they happen to be the best player available) even with Deng in place. 

I still think Lu can be an exceptional NBA player and I expect him to make a significant step forward next year. But he can be replaced and improved upon - though I still place a pretty high trade value on him. 

He's still my favorite player on the team though.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

unBULLievable said:


> The guy couldn't workout with a broken wrist.
> 
> He took the cast off in mid August


A wrist injury shouldn't make you totally out of shape. He can run, do situps, and leg lifts. No excuse for his poor defense, and I'm not talking about a big guy like Lebron overpowering, but Deng is generally just being killed. A wrist injury shouldn't make you miss layups at the suprisingly high rate than him, and I can't leave him, out, Kirk Hinrich do. A wrist injury isn't the reason he plays stupid.

Bigger is, if Deng wasn't ready, and we already knew Nocioni was inconsistent, why the hell is Tim Thomas still sitting at home. We could be probaly 5th seed in the East right now if we had Thomas, he would allow us to get more out of the 3/4 on a nightly basis.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

UMfan83 said:


> Luol is 20 years old with 1 year of college, and about 1.5 years in the NBA. Most of the deficiencies you guys are talking about are things that can be corrected with experience. Don't sit there and get ready to throw Deng to the wolves. I'm not saying let's go be "Chandler/Curry" patient, but you gotta give the kid more then 1.5 years before giving up on him.
> 
> I'm as frustrated about the Bulls as most here, but you gotta look at how sunny our future looks here. We have a young core, we have potentially 2 lottery picks next year, potentially another 1-2 lottery picks in 2007, we have cap space to use this year, etc etc. I know you guys are really down on Pax, but if there was an offseason to define Pax, this will be the one. This time, lets not bring Benny down to O'Hare ok?


The reasons we are having this conversation are
1) We have had less success than last year, we are weak inside.
2) Deng has been struggling for a while, and hasn't shown much improvement this year.

The idea of trading Deng gives me Elton Brand flashbacks. Nocioni on the other hand, is a great backup small foward but doesn't have Deng's potential. And I beleive Gay will be the real deal and a better fit along side Hinrich and Gordon, because of his unreal finishing ability, he's also a better outside shooter. It would really be painful to pass up Aldridge if we had a chance at both.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> At the very worst, he's the next Shane Battier (a player I love). At the best, he can be something special, sort of a Lamar Odom except a quicker defender and one who doesn't play as big and strong as Odom does.


I don't think Odom is a good comparison for Deng. Deng will never be confused with a point forward. I think Deng could be a less athletic Shawn Marion.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Deng was "my guy" when it came to that draft, and Iggy was #2 on the list. I think it's a good comparison now because it seems to me that the way we _want_ Deng to play is the way Iggy plays.

One of the criticisms of Iggy made here, that he's not putting up big numbers and basically a "role player" strikes me as off because if you looked at what he's asked to do on the Sixers, it's basically what he'd be asked to do here. Guard the opponent's best wing guy, hit the occasional open shot, and pass when he's supposed to.

I mean really, tell me a guy who's 6'7 with a quality handle, superb athelticism, slashing to the basket ability, and good defense isn't the guy you want playing 3 to Ben at the 2?

Deng is a nice player, but I thought he'd be more athletic and have a better handle. What he really is is a guy like Rashard Lewis who's pretty much a pure-shooting three. Nice shooter, better mid-range game, by far, than Iggy, ok defender - good against guys in the right size/athleticism range, not all that good outside it, mediocre handle. 

Deng's skills are impressive and valuable ones, but I'm starting to wonder how well they fit into what the Bulls want/need next to Gordon and Hinrich.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

Deng's a difficult one to figure out. He seems really enamoured with that 18 footer which he doesn't hit nearly consistently enough. He's best going to the basket and is probably one of our best finishers if not the best finisher on the team. Why he doesn't work more in the post is beyond me. I must say I've soured on him a bit, but I'm not ready to throw in the towel on him. He really did lose a lot of valuable time this past summer. The things he needed to work on most were the exact things he couldn't really work on because of his wrist injury. His overall shot, his dribble and passing skills and just general court awareness. From a conditioning standpoint, he's seemed fine all season. He couldn't really add any strength, again because of the wrist injury. It really did set him back.

I still think he has the skillset to be the best all-around player on the team. I want to see what he looks like after a summer of work and not just rehabilitation. He strikes me as a competetor. Not a supreme athlete, but he's got enough to get the job done. He gets some good open looks, he's just got to get better at knowing which shots to take and when.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Mikedc said:


> Deng was "my guy" when it came to that draft, and Iggy was #2 on the list. I think it's a good comparison now because it seems to me that the way we _want_ Deng to play is the way Iggy plays.


YEP! Ironically, who on this team has more jib than Andre Iguodala?



> One of the criticisms of Iggy made here, that he's not putting up big numbers and basically a "role player" strikes me as off because if you looked at what he's asked to do on the Sixers, it's basically what he'd be asked to do here. Guard the opponent's best wing guy, hit the occasional open shot, and pass when he's supposed to.


Exactly. But you're only as good as 82games.com says you are right?



> I mean really, tell me a guy who's 6'7 with a quality handle, superb athelticism, slashing to the basket ability, and good defense isn't the guy you want playing 3 to Ben at the 2?


Yep. Basically I'd be jumping for joy if we picked Iguodala over Gordon OR Deng.



> Deng is a nice player, but I thought he'd be more athletic and have a better handle. What he really is is a guy like Rashard Lewis who's pretty much a pure-shooting three. Nice shooter, better mid-range game, by far, than Iggy, ok defender - good against guys in the right size/athleticism range, not all that good outside it, mediocre handle.
> 
> Deng's skills are impressive and valuable ones, but I'm starting to wonder how well they fit into what the Bulls want/need next to Gordon and Hinrich.


This sums it up. Luol Deng is what happens consistently when you have a GM that makes the safe pick. When a GM stays away from players that either could be really good or really bad, you will consistently get guys who are neither and are just average-good. Teams made up entirely of guys like that never win championships. Ever.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Pippenatorade said:


> By no means am I attacking Luol Deng here. But to all the people who say "give this guy 3 more offseasons" and then want to get into a deal with you about how he couldn't do anything last summer, I say the same thing I say to Chandler fans:
> 
> WHAT HAPPENED TO NO EXCUSES?
> 
> Guess that mantra kind of walked out the door with Eddy Curry huh?


Dude, I only said give him 1 normal off-season where he's not rehabbing a major wrist injury, and we'll start to see progress. Then I said, maybe give him 2 or 3 before we start to see MAJOR improvement (i.e. taking his game to the next level). As Ron Cey mentioned, you really couldn't have expected much more than "treading water" this year. He kind of surprised us with solid play to start the season; I think because of that, we dismissed the consequences of his injury as relevent anymore. I tend to think that the lack of off-season work has caught up with him. Call it a reason, excuse, whatever...but it's certainly legit, IMO. 

And it's funny...Ben Gordon is playing the best ball of his young career at the 2/3 point in the season, while Luol Deng is the one tapering off and fading. I think it's blatantly obvious which one had the amazing off-season of hard work, while the other didn't.



> What I'm saying about Deng, is that forget work ethic. He has it. EVEN with it, he just isn't nearly as good as many Bulls fans think, and doesn't have close to the potential they think he has. He's a good kid. He's gonna be a good solid starter in this league. He's not a role playing, benchwarming scrub.
> 
> I just don't see him EVER EVER EVER being better than Chuck Person for example. To me the gap between Luol Deng and GLEN RICE is considerable, and that's a good thing for LUOL. It's not a good thing for guys who've said that Luol has the chance to be the eventual equal of SFs far superior to Rice, and believe me, that stuff is out there.
> 
> So I just want to know. Who does Luol remind most of you of? I say a poor man's Chuck Person. Or maybe Glen Rice mixed with Vinny Del *****.


I see him being alot closer to Tayshuan Prince than anyone else. Same body, very similar style of play. If he reaches hit peak around age 24/25 or so, I'd be perfectly content with Tayshuan's level and style of play. I do, however, see him having a _slightly_ higher ceiling. I can't exactly put my finger on why I think that, just a gut feeling I guess.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

yodurk said:


> Dude, I only said give him 1 normal off-season where he's not rehabbing a major wrist injury, and we'll start to see progress. Then I said, maybe give him 2 or 3 before we start to see MAJOR improvement (i.e. taking his game to the next level). As Ron Cey mentioned, you really couldn't have expected much more than "treading water" this year. He kind of surprised us with solid play to start the season; I think because of that, we dismissed the consequences of his injury as relevent anymore. I tend to think that the lack of off-season work has caught up with him. Call it a reason, excuse, whatever...but it's certainly legit, IMO.
> 
> And it's funny...Ben Gordon is playing the best ball of his young career at the 2/3 point in the season, while Luol Deng is the one tapering off and fading. I think it's blatantly obvious which one had the amazing off-season of hard work, while the other didn't.


I'm not blaming the guy for anything, and I'm not attributing what I said entirely to you. I was trying to fuse things that many people say. I'm not saying Deng didn't work hard. He's just not going to be as good as people say.



> I see him being alot closer to Tayshuan Prince than anyone else. Same body, very similar style of play. If he reaches hit peak around age 24/25 or so, I'd be perfectly content with Tayshuan's level and style of play. I do, however, see him having a _slightly_ higher ceiling. I can't exactly put my finger on why I think that, just a gut feeling I guess.


He'll never play defense with close to the agility of Prince. To me I never see Luol being nearly as good of a defender.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Pippenatorade said:


> He'll never play defense with close to the agility of Prince. To me I never see Luol being nearly as good of a defender.


That's a valid point, and I agree his defense has been inconsistent this year. 

I still think this goes back to his lack of strength work with the injury. Luol really gets pushed around ALOT by the bigger 3's. Ron Artest was manhandling him. I do think Luol has good lateral movement though. Problem is, good defensive positioning doesn't always work if you can't hold your ground. (Fortunately we have the much stronger, but slower, Nocioni to compliment him.)

During the pre-season, Skiles called Luol a "way above average defender." I think alot of that was based on him being a 19-year old rookie last year. He obviously hasn't gotten better defensively. I'm hoping some fine-tuning will make a big difference, as it does for other maturing players.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> One of the criticisms of Iggy made here, that he's not putting up big numbers and basically a "role player" strikes me as off because if you looked at what he's asked to do on the Sixers, it's basically what he'd be asked to do here. Guard the opponent's best wing guy, hit the occasional open shot, and pass when he's supposed to.


If Iggy was on the Bulls, and I was the coach, I'd tell him to shoot about twice as much as he does..

Right now he's a startlingly efficient offensive player. These stats are just gaudy:

52% from the field (from a swingman!!!)
39% from 3
74% from the line

Obviously, Iguodala is the rare player who only takes a shot on offense when he is pretty sure he's going to make it. Perhaps this is the only way to achieve friendly coexistance with Iverson, who seems to love him, BTW. His shooting percentage would probably go down a bit if he shot more, but he'd still be an unbelievably efficient offensive player, IMO, if he was scoring 17 a game as opposed to 12, and I really think he has it in him to do so now, were his situation different.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

yodurk said:


> That's a valid point, and I agree his defense has been inconsistent this year.
> 
> I still think this goes back to his lack of strength work with the injury. Luol really gets pushed around ALOT by the bigger 3's. Ron Artest was manhandling him. I do think Luol has good lateral movement though. Problem is, good defensive positioning doesn't always work if you can't hold your ground. (Fortunately we have the much stronger, but slower, Nocioni to compliment him.)
> 
> During the pre-season, Skiles called Luol a "way above average defender." I think alot of that was based on him being a 19-year old rookie last year. He obviously hasn't gotten better defensively. I'm hoping some fine-tuning will make a big difference, as it does for other maturing players.


Luol Deng is only 21! He grew an entire inch in the offseason, hes going to bulk up and hes going to be a lock down defender mark my words. Ron Artest was a pesky defender before he got umm 250 pounds! Ron Artest is going to manhandle any other SF. I dont know what the heck is the love afair with Iggy is all about, this guy statistically is just as good as Luol and older, He cant hit an open jump shot to save his life offcourse unless its a gainst the Bulls and being guarder by The great Chris Duhon. 

Luol Deng will be fine, its finicky fans like alot of Bulls fans that get rid of good young developing players for junk. Luol will be just fine the kid needs to get a good 20 more pounds of muscle and those missed inside shots will go in and since he does have decent range teams will start to worry more about him. Now Iam so torn in this draft I have seen Rudy Gay many times and I can safely say that this is the Cant miss superstar in the draft, I have never seen a player so gifter with his shot, Defense and athletisism at that size. Hes at the worst going to be a constant NBA all defense 1st team. I dont know if I can live with picking someone ahead of Gay, Even though I am a huge fan of Morrison and Shelden.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Luol Deng is only 21! He grew an entire inch in the offseason, hes going to bulk up and hes going to be a lock down defender mark my words. Ron Artest was a pesky defender before he got umm 250 pounds! Ron Artest is going to manhandle any other SF. I dont know what the heck is the love afair with Iggy is all about, this guy statistically is just as good as Luol and older, He cant hit an open jump shot to save his life offcourse unless its a gainst the Bulls and being guarder by The great Chris Duhon.
> 
> Luol Deng will be fine, its finicky fans like alot of Bulls fans that get rid of good young developing players for junk. Luol will be just fine the kid needs to get a good 20 more pounds of muscle and those missed inside shots will go in and since he does have decent range teams will start to worry more about him. Now Iam so torn in this draft I have seen Rudy Gay many times and I can safely say that this is the Cant miss superstar in the draft, I have never seen a player so gifter with his shot, Defense and athletisism at that size. Hes at the worst going to be a constant NBA all defense 1st team. I dont know if I can live with picking someone ahead of Gay, Even though I am a huge fan of Morrison and Shelden.


I agree! On Rudy Gay, I also am pretty torn. On one hand, I know we want size (maybe we use our own pick on a big?). On the other, you don't want to create logjam. But can you pass up such a major talent as Gay? I'm actually pretty enamored with the idea of drafting Gay, bringing him along as a backup for a little while, and then easing him into the starting lineup. You have have to love Jim Calhoun's ability to mold NBA caliber players. Gay's development this season for UConn has really been solid, and he'll likely contribute a little something right out of the gates. 

We could either start Hinrich/Gordon/Gay on the perimeter, with Deng as a do-it-all 6th man, or we could do something outside the box like starting Gordon/Gay in the backcourt, with Deng at your starting SF. It's hard to say, but the thing you like is that Gay, Deng, and Nocioni are all pretty versatile and can play multiple positions. More importantly, they all know how to play.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

yodurk said:


> I agree! On Rudy Gay, I also am pretty torn. On one hand, I know we want size (maybe we use our own pick on a big?). On the other, you don't want to create logjam. But can you pass up such a major talent as Gay? I'm actually pretty enamored with the idea of drafting Gay, bringing him along as a backup for a little while, and then easing him into the starting lineup. You have have to love Jim Calhoun's ability to mold NBA caliber players. Gay's development this season for UConn has really been solid, and he'll likely contribute a little something right out of the gates.
> 
> We could either start Hinrich/Gordon/Gay on the perimeter, with Deng as a do-it-all 6th man, or we could do something outside the box like starting Gordon/Gay in the backcourt, with Deng at your starting SF. It's hard to say, but the thing you like is that Gay, Deng, and Nocioni are all pretty versatile and can play multiple positions. More importantly, they all know how to play.


 But where does Kirk and Duhon fit into your Gordon Gay backcourt? There is no way in Hell that Scott Skiles will put the best 5 players on the court at the same time, What else would explain constantly starting Othella Harrington! 

Yeah Gay is something, he started the season kinda low key but hes just been bulldosing the competition. I really think this guy is going to be just as good as Ak47 hes actually going to be a better athleate then Andrie but he will also have a better shot then say Marion. So basically if you draft Gay your getting a player in between Shawn Marion and Ak47. Size, Defense , Quickness and the ability to score inside and out what more could the Bulls want. This draft is driving me crazy because once you count someone out of being of help to the Bulls then you have that player just burst back into the scene where wins are alot more important. 

Ronny Brewer and Gay where high on my list when the season started, then they kinda slowed down and now they are back. Brewer is AMAZING, he will not average 20 ppg in the NBA but hes such a talent hes got such great handles and court vision, hes going to be a 6'7 PG in the NBA hes got skillz and hes also a sweet defender.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> But where does Kirk and Duhon fit into your Gordon Gay backcourt? There is no way in Hell that Scott Skiles will put the best 5 players on the court at the same time, What else would explain constantly starting Othella Harrington!


As I said, it's hard to say. I just don't want to miss out on possibly the best player in this draft.

All I know is that the Phoenix Suns are an incredibly small team, but incredibly effective. I think the only guy they played last night who was bigger than 6'7 was Pat Burke, who played 5 minutes. Of course, Marion is a freak and Nash is the best PG in the league, IMO.

Still, they find a way to use big, athletic, versatile wings in a deep rotation. Deng, Gay, and Nocioni all fit this mold. Thinking outside the box can sometimes lead to something special.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

yodurk said:


> As I said, it's hard to say. I just don't want to miss out on possibly the best player in this draft.
> 
> All I know is that the Phoenix Suns are an incredibly small team, but incredibly effective. I think the only guy they played last night who was bigger than 6'7 was Pat Burke, who played 5 minutes. Of course, Marion is a freak and Nash is the best PG in the league, IMO.
> 
> Still, they find a way to use big, athletic, versatile wings in a deep rotation. Deng, Gay, and Nocioni all fit this mold. Thinking outside the box can sometimes lead to something special.


Heres a good question, How good do you think Deng would be if he stayed with the Suns? Iam not going to BS you I think hes a 15 ppg and 7 guy right NOW. THe Suns are my sleeper pick to win the NBA title. I think if they get back Amare and play Detroit I think the Pistons would get Biatched slaped.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Heres a good question, How good do you think Deng would be if he stayed with the Suns? Iam not going to BS you I think hes a 15 ppg and 7 guy right NOW. THe Suns are my sleeper pick to win the NBA title. I think if they get back Amare and play Detroit I think the Pistons would get Biatched slaped.


Playing with Nash in D'Antoni's up-tempo system is definitely a stat inflator. Given Deng's ability to run the floor and finish at the hoop, I think 15 & 7 would be no problem for him. Still, not everyone's as good as Steve Nash. *sigh*

By the way, good sleeper call on the Suns.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

yodurk said:


> Playing with Nash in D'Antoni's up-tempo system is definitely a stat inflator. Given Deng's ability to run the floor and finish at the hoop, I think 15 & 7 would be no problem for him. Still, not everyone's as good as Steve Nash. *sigh*
> 
> By the way, good sleeper call on the Suns.


 Whats the problem with the Bulls offense? Why doesnt this team play like a young team?! They play like a team full of Karl Malones THE OLD MALONE! Granted this team isnt as bad as the Carthwright and Floyd era but My god they where atleast exiting. This team IS SOOOOO BORING!!!! When was the Last time Chandler had one of his CHANDLELIER nights and trew down 3 Alley oop dunks. I dont believe for one second that we dont have athleates, I think thats a stupid excuse. 

Whenever Gordon does a boneheaded play he sits and Duhon gets 30 minutes. This team has no idea of what it takes to win a title right now. Management fails to understand how to market their team as well. This team if they make the playoffs are going to get swept plain and simple. Why not let these kids run up and down the floor make fans happy instead of putting them to sleep, be smart and get two lottery players who can honestly make our team alot better and start from scratch next season. 

This team is nothing special, they are the average of average.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

thebizkit69u said:


> Luol Deng will be fine, its finicky fans like alot of Bulls fans that get rid of good young developing players for junk.


You do realize there are also Bulls fans who just think he isn't as good as a lot of people say he will be. I mean he's a good guy, he tries hard, he is GOOD, I don't want him traded, but he's not Tayshaun Prince and he's not gonna be better than Prince, which isn't that great. 

I'm just asking people to adjust their rating of him to be commensurate with reality, not to trade him or say he's not working hard.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Pippenatorade said:


> You do realize there are also Bulls fans who just think he isn't as good as a lot of people say he will be. I mean he's a good guy, he tries hard, he is GOOD, I don't want him traded, but he's not Tayshaun Prince and he's not gonna be better than Prince, which isn't that great.
> 
> I'm just asking people to adjust their rating of him to be commensurate with reality, not to trade him or say he's not working hard.


 Whats funny is if we drafted Tayshaun Prince and Luol Deng was a Piston there would be people complaining that Tayshaun Prince is No Luol Deng. Deng is very young, give him a break.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

thebizkit69u said:


> Whats funny is if we drafted Tayshaun Prince and Luol Deng was a Piston there would be people complaining that Tayshaun Prince is No Luol Deng. Deng is very young, give him a break.


Man does everything have to take on such a tone? Didn't I just say that I think Luol is good and don't want him traded? Does anyone who doesn't think Luol will be Scottie Pippen have to be an anti-pax conspirator?

He's a good player. I'm not complaining that he isn't as good as Prince, I'm just saying it is reality. Who do you think he projects out as? I say poor man's Chuck Person.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Prince 4year vet
14 4 and 2 44%FG

Deng second year player
13 6 and 1 46%FG

Yeah Luol Deng will never be as good as Prince.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

for all the hand-wringing about Luol's lack of improvement, he's improved EVERY SINGLE STAT except for assists. Now, part of that is that is certainly that he's gotten a few more scoring opportunities due to Eddy's departure, but ppg, rpg, fg%, 3pt%, (lack of) turnovers...all have improved. And that's after an offseason where he really couldn't do much work on what we all agreed were his weaknesses. If he can improve modestly after doing almost NO offseason work, who's to say he can't improve notably when he does put in an offseason of finetuning skill work and conditioning?

I do concede that my early prognostications of him being about as much of an impact player as someone like Jamal Mashburn (in his prime) might have been off the mark, but I still see him being a very good player and perhaps in the conversation for All-Star honors at some point in his career.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

thebizkit69u said:


> Prince 4year vet
> 14 4 and 2 44%FG
> 
> Deng second year player
> ...


Are you part of this funny little 82games.com gang that takes ONE players stats and completely forgets things like team makeup and gameplan? I don't care what Prince's numbers are with 4 all stars around him. He's playing with 4 all stars. Prince made Kobe Bryant look silly in the NBA finals. What has Luol Deng ever done that even comes close to that accomplishment. You stick to taking individual stats out of context, and I'll WATCH THE GAMES.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

ViciousFlogging said:


> for all the hand-wringing about Luol's lack of improvement, he's improved EVERY SINGLE STAT except for assists. Now, part of that is that is certainly that he's gotten a few more scoring opportunities due to Eddy's departure, but ppg, rpg, fg%, 3pt%, (lack of) turnovers...all have improved. And that's after an offseason where he really couldn't do much work on what we all agreed were his weaknesses. If he can improve modestly after doing almost NO offseason work, who's to say he can't improve notably when he does put in an offseason of finetuning skill work and conditioning?
> 
> I do concede that my early prognostications of him being about as much of an impact player as someone like Jamal Mashburn (in his prime) might have been off the mark, but I still see him being a very good player and perhaps in the conversation for All-Star honors at some point in his career.


Ok so my question is... who is saying anything differently than this?

I'm not hand-wringing about how Luol Deng isn't very good. HE's GOOD. For the 100th time he's good. You just did exactly what I've been wanting people to do.

My feeling is that there are people who severely overrated him this summer. I even found a couple posters saying that Scottie Pippen couldn't be completely out of the question as a possible future comparison. 

So what I'm saying now is that some overrated him. I want those people to step up and say "I thought he could be as good as Jamal Mashburn in his prime, but maybe he's more like Detlef Schrempf or Jerome Kersey (or whoever you want)." With many people here I feel its always one of two answers. If you're saying that maybe Deng isn't a future all star, then that means you must be saying he sucks. Just like if you say Paxson is not good or may not be good, you must be saying he's worse than Krause. 

I'm just looking for people to say "I still think Luol Deng is good, but maybe not as good as before." OR "I still think he'll be better than Glen Rice." Or whatever. But here are some things I'm NOT saying:

Deng should be traded
Deng doesn't work hard
Deng is not good


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

Pippenatorade said:


> Are you part of this funny little 82games.com gang that takes ONE players stats and completely forgets things like team makeup and gameplan? I don't care what Prince's numbers are with 4 all stars around him. He's playing with 4 all stars. Prince made Kobe Bryant look silly in the NBA finals. What has Luol Deng ever done that even comes close to that accomplishment. You stick to taking individual stats out of context, and I'll WATCH THE GAMES.


Not saying this is the case with Prince, but playing with other All-Stars can have the opposite affect as well: stats become inflated as defenses gear to stop other players.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> Not saying this is the case with Prince, but playing with other All-Stars can have the opposite affect as well: stats become inflated as defenses gear to stop other players.


Exactly. We all saw what happened to Bulls players who got big money to go elsewhere and didn't live up to those contracts.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Frankensteiner said:


> Not saying this is the case with Prince, but playing with other All-Stars can have the opposite affect as well: stats become inflated as defenses gear to stop other players.


To me it's no different than being a big fish in a small pond. Luol Deng is probably the most promising player on a team full of young players that are average-good. That gives him a better chance to shine. Besides, I don't think Ben Wallace is an all star for his offense. But to me it's not even about stats. It's about watching the game. I've watched Tayshaun Prince put maybe the best defense on Kobe that he's had put on him in his career. Separate of stats, what has Luol Deng done that is close to as impressive as that? This is not you, but why are people so defensive about how good he is? I guarantee you you could go to any city besides Detroit and Chicago and poll their fans and they'd take Tayshaun Prince over Luol Deng.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Pippenatorade said:


> Ok so my question is... who is saying anything differently than this?


I wasn't only addressing you with my comment - I think your comments on Luol are fair, though I do hold him in somewhat higher esteem than you (and most people, for that matter). This thread became sort of a dumping ground for comments about how Luol will never be this, hasn't improved enough at that. The tone I was getting was that now, in his 2nd season at the age of 20, and with almost no offseason work, we can decide that Luol is and always will be limited in a bunch of different ways. That certainly _could_ be the case, but I personally don't think the final chapter of his development will be written for a couple more years at least. And, as I said, despite his sometimes underwhelming performance, he's improved over last year in almost every major category. So while I don't begrudge people who are disappointed with Luol (right now) their opinions, I don't view it the same way. Sure, he's been overrated at times (including by me), but realistically, he's about where I thought he'd be, maybe just a little behind where I _hoped_ he'd be.


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