# Gasol's Asking Price Going Down?!?



## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

http://www.latimes.com/sports/baske...eadlines-sports-nba-clippe&ctrack=1&cset=true



> Insiders say Memphis keeps dropping its asking price for Pau Gasol, suggesting owner Michael Heisley has told Jerry West to forget fair value and slash the payroll.
> 
> The Grizzlies reportedly asked Chicago for Ben Gordon, Luol Deng and the Knicks' No. 1 pick, which the Bulls own. *Now Memphis is down to Deng or Gordon plus another young player such as Thabo Sefolosha, P.J. Brown's expiring contract and a 2009 first-rounder.*


If this is true I have to wonder why Pax is still holding out. Is Cardinal's contract still the sticking point?

EDIT: Sorry mods, missed this posted in the other thread.


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## da bully (Oct 17, 2006)

i think pax IS NOT going to trade any of the bulls core players.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

da bully said:


> i think pax IS NOT going to trade any of the bulls core players.


I think he will trade one of the core. I think he's waiting because we are only 1 game out of the best record in the East, we are still winning games and in the meantime Gasol price continues to drop. Why pay extra when we have to wait 5 games and get him cheaper.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

So, Deng + Thabo + Brown + 2009 1st round?

If Pax is not going to do this deal, he's probably not going to do it at all. I think this is as good as it gets. If Memphis can throw in an extra player that will be best.


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## taurus515th (Oct 13, 2005)

What contender could give Memphis better than P.J. Brown, Chris Duhon, Mike Sweetney, Viktor Khryapa, 2007 option to swipe from NYK’S and other future picks which r about 7 picks without having to give Memphis a star player or a player with an expiring contract star who is not going to stay with the team. Paxson is trying to model his team like wut Dallas is now or the way Detriot use to be.
He is not going to trade Deng, Sefolosha, our 2009 pick for Gasol and Warrick.
He wants our team to look like this and have a great match-up if we face Dallas.

Hinrich vs Harris 
Gordon vs Terry 
Deng vs Howard 
Gasol vs Nowitzki 
Wallace vs Dampier 
Nocioni vs Stackhouse 
or 
Hinrich vs Billups 
Gordon vs Hamilton 
Deng vs Prince 
Gasol vs R. Wallace 
Wallace vs Wallace

A lot of people seem to think that since Warrick is being put in the deal it makes it a good/fair deal. If u really think about it we are mostly getting another Tyrus Thomas in Warrick only Thomas has more potential especially if he is given more minutes.
Paxson has a plan he knows he has a team full of depth that none fans want to say are team is not going to work out because we have so much which is true about the too much depth part but too much depth also helps when trades like these come along.

Paxson knows Memphis can not sell a team in a mess with the worst record n the league, not a lot of cap space and a team with their franchise player wanting out. Pau Gasol is leaving no matter wut, even if they do not even get half the talent Gasol is. 

Right now, Orlando has Grant Hill, Hedu Turkuglo, J.J Redick, Darko Milicic, Kenyon Dooling.

Detroit- Rip Hamilton and Prince if Paxson does not want to get rid of Deng and Gordon y would Detroit give up Hamilton and Prince.

New Jersey- only has Vince Carter who is an expiring and is a 100% guarantee he is not going to stay in Memphis.

Miami- only has Wright and Kapono that Memphis might want. Wow.

Clevland has Drew Gooden and Larry Hughes. Memphis is trying to dump salary not add more.

Wizards are not going to trade Caron Butler and since they are not y should we trade Luol Deng.

All the other teams in the east are not contenders yet imo.

With Orlando’s Grant Hill Hedu Turkoglu, J.J. Redick, Darko, and Keyon Dooling

Grant Hill and P.J Brown - Both expiring contracts
Hedu Turkoglu is a great player but is almost 28 just like Noc. Would Memphis rather have Hedu or get a 10th-14th pick (shooting guard or small forward), who would hopefully average more than 15 ppg in the future?
J.J. Redick has a good future ahead of him but will J.J. be too similiar to Mike Miller.
Kenyon Dooling is a good player but does he bring more than Duhon.
Darko been on 2 good teams Detroit and Orlando. I heard Orlando wants to trade him, if so wut makes Memphis think he will do great there if he could not help out 2 good teams. Also Darko thinks hes worth 60 million.
Mike Sweetney has been very disappointing in Chicago.
Viktor Khryapa an ok role player if given minutes I guess.
Also Chicago has other future picks and 2nd round picks we dont want nor do we need them. Orlando has no 1st round pick this year.

Also Gasol said he would like to play for Chicago.

Mayb since im a Bulls fan this is y I think we have an edge over the Magic in getting Gasol.

Now with Miami. Wright will have a good future and so will Kapono but wut expiring contracts do they have except Posey’s and would Memphis want Posey on the team again or you can get the pick from Chicago and get a good player that will have just as good and hopefully a better career than Wright and for Kapono he is kind of similar to Mike Miller imo and is an expiring contract, will he stay?

I have a feeling this is wut Paxson is thinking if Paxson keeps refusing until Memphis has no chose but to take our bench players and picks for the future. I really think this is wuts going to happen.

Why overbid for Luol Deng and Sefolosha when no one has offered anything better than them or close to it.

That’s just like you have 100 dollars to spend and ur bidding for something on ebay and no one has bidding but 5 dollars on it and u jump up and bid all $100u have when u could have just put down 6 dollars or less to save u $94 or more.

Paxson will get wut he wants and trading Luol Deng, Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, and Andres Nocioni are not in his trading plans.

When GM’s are trading it is not about being fair which seems to b on a lot of people minds on this board. well it’s a fair trade so we should jump n and do it. Noooo. Paxson is being smart and waiting till he can try and offer less than half of Gasol’s worth instead of trying to help Memphis and hopefully his team but only his team.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

wow... so there really is a possibility to get Gasol by trading PJ Brown, Duhon, Sweetney, Khryapa and the pick? wow... I can understand Deng, PJ Brown and the pick alone. Or even just Deng and PJ. But that?


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## raptorsrule15 (Jul 4, 2003)

^^keep dreamin taurus lol!


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## taurus515th (Oct 13, 2005)

wut other team has better? Gasol is going to b traded by the deadline.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

taurus515th said:


> wut other team has better? Gasol is going to b traded by the deadline.


If we can't place restrictions on the NY pick then I doubt we can swap picks with them. Aside from that, Memphis doesn't have to trade Pau to a contender and if that's the case, Boston's offer of Al Jefferson + pick(s) + filler looks much better than a pick swap and crap. As much as I'd like to believe we can rob Memphis, we're not getting Pau without giving up Deng. Gasol's desire to go to a contender really doesn't matter.


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## taurus515th (Oct 13, 2005)

SecretAgentGuy said:


> Gasol's desire to go to a contender really doesn't matter.


Yes it does, Why would Boston or any other team want a player that doesnt want to play for them? Also Boston has the same amount of wins as Boston. Yea Pierce isnt playing but they still were not a contender with Pierce playing and were not even a playoff team last year.

My trade looks bad on paper but i also said future picks with will be included in the trade which people want to skip over. 2007 how ever it goes, 2 2007 2nd round picks, 1 2008 2nd round pick, and our 2009 first round pick along with 2 second round picks.

With this trade Memphis has 10+ picks for the next 3 drafts, something that will attract someone who wants to by the team. 

More cap room

And u do have young talent, Viktor Khryapa and Chris Duhon to go along with the picks.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

RSP83 said:


> So, Deng + Thabo + Brown + 2009 1st round?
> 
> If Pax is not going to do this deal, he's probably not going to do it at all. I think this is as good as it gets. If Memphis can throw in an extra player that will be best.


Why? If Pax passes on the opportunity to see if the price will drop further I hope he has a better reason than his gut to believe this is as good as it gets.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

taurus515th said:


> Yes it does, Why would Boston or any other team want a player that doesnt want to play for them? Also Boston has the same amount of wins as Boston. Yea Pierce isnt playing but they still were not a contender with Pierce playing and were not even a playoff team last year.
> 
> My trade looks bad on paper but i also said future picks with will be included in the trade which people want to skip over. 2007 how ever it goes, 2 2007 2nd round picks, 1 2008 2nd round pick, and our 2009 first round pick along with 2 second round picks.
> 
> ...


No, it doesn't. Gasol has too lengthy a contract to threaten sitting out and a Gasol/Pierce duo is nothing to laugh at. They won't win this year but I can see it easily happening before Gasol's contract is up. Almost every team in the league can offer up more than Duhon, Khryapa, draft picks, and crap.


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## taurus515th (Oct 13, 2005)

SecretAgentGuy said:


> No, it doesn't. Gasol has too lengthy a contract to threaten sitting out and a Gasol/Pierce duo is nothing to laugh at. They won't win this year but I can see it easily happening before Gasol's contract is up. Almost every team in the league can offer up more than Duhon, Khryapa, draft picks, and crap.


yea he does but about indiana and artet was the same thing but they still sat him until a deal was done.

yea a Gasol/Pierce duo is noting to laugh at nor would a Gasol/Oden or Durant something to laugh at but that still doesnt convince Gasol to stay.

yea almost every team in the league n the league can offer up more than Duhon ect but have any contenders done that that also helps Memphis in the future?


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

SecretAgentGuy said:


> No, it doesn't. Gasol has too lengthy a contract to threaten sitting out and a Gasol/Pierce duo is nothing to laugh at. They won't win this year but I can see it easily happening before Gasol's contract is up. Almost every team in the league can offer up more than Duhon, Khryapa, draft picks, and crap.


If it was simply an issue of who could win a power struggle the Grizzlies wouldn't be shopping Gasol in the first place. The same exact logic you espoused applies to them. The thing is that teams avoid disgruntled, unmotivated players at all costs. Teams are particularly hesitant when it comes to trading multiple assets for a player who will be unhappy with his new team. This is supposedly why Iverson trade talks with Memphis died out.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

JeremyB0001 said:


> If it was simply an issue of who could win a power struggle the Grizzlies wouldn't be shopping Gasol in the first place. The same exact logic you espoused applies to them. The thing is that teams avoid disgruntled, unmotivated players at all costs. Teams are particularly hesitant when it comes to trading multiple assets for a player who will be unhappy with his new team. This is supposedly why Iverson trade talks with Memphis died out.


Let me ask you this - is Pau tired of losing or is he tired of Memphis? No way to prove anything but my gut tells me he's sick of Memphis. After all, Memphis won 50 not too long ago and with an all but guaranteed top 5 pick this year they're only going to improve. If he wants to win then Memphis is one of his better options. The rumors surrounding Boston and Portland also leads me to believe that sending Pau to a contender isn't West's priority. This is an auction with very few buyers, similar to the AI sale. Superstars are sold for pennies on the dollar and this case isn't much different. The distinguishing factor I see here is that Pau is young enough and in a position of need where it might be worthwhile to sell the farm. Honestly, I'm surprised we're not hearing about more teams in the running.

And FYI, I'd give up more for Gasol than I would for KG.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

SecretAgentGuy said:


> Let me ask you this - is Pau tired of losing or is he tired of Memphis? No way to prove anything but my gut tells me he's sick of Memphis. After all, Memphis won 50 not too long ago and with an all but guaranteed top 5 pick this year they're only going to improve. If he wants to win then Memphis is one of his better options. The rumors surrounding Boston and Portland also leads me to believe that sending Pau to a contender isn't West's priority. This is an auction with very few buyers, similar to the AI sale. Superstars are sold for pennies on the dollar and this case isn't much different. The distinguishing factor I see here is that Pau is young enough and in a position of need where it might be worthwhile to sell the farm. Honestly, I'm surprised we're not hearing about more teams in the running.
> 
> And FYI, I'd give up more for Gasol than I would for KG.


Well I don't think whether or not West intends to send Gasol to a contender makes much of a difference. The key is whether a team that is currently a non-contender such as Boston is concerned that Gasol will be unhappy. The reason few teams seem to be in the running is that few contenders have and are willing to part with the type of assets Memphis is seeking. The Bulls are in a unique position.

I don't feel that I have substantial insight into Pau's gripes. If he mostly just wants out of Memphis and that is communicated to a team like Boston then I'd agree that whether or not the team is a contender would no longer be much of an issue.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

da bully said:


> i think pax IS NOT going to trade any of the bulls core players.


He's retarded if he won't give Deng, Sefolosha, Brown and a first for Pau Gasol.

PG: Kirk Hinrich
SG: Ben Gordon
SF: Andres Nocioni
PF: Pau Gasol
C: Ben Wallace

That would be equal a "Welcome to the Finals" for Chicago.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

SecretAgentGuy said:


> And FYI, I'd give up more for Gasol than I would for KG.


FYI, that's just stupid.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Damian Necronamous said:


> FYI, that's just stupid.


Dude your arguments seem to be lacking substance. There's not much of a point posting that something is stupid if you don't intend to explain your reasoning. Considering that the Bulls' three best players are 26, 24, and 21 I think there's a pretty good case to be made that a 26 year old All-Star is as or more valuable to the Bulls than a 31 year old superstar. You seem to consider making the finals out of a pitiful Eastern Conference to be some sort of a huge prize (you apparently think the fact that Gasol theoretically gets the Bulls there means dealing for him is a must) but what happens if the Bulls get crushed and then KG opts out of his contract or delines with age? I really wouldn't get too much satisfaction by the Bulls losing in the Finals in five games. The Heat's inexplicable Finals victory last season isn't enough to convince me that NBA playoff series resembled MLB playoff series where even the biggest underdog has at least a 30% chance of winning.


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## DaBullz4Sho (Oct 12, 2002)

I think the deal is gonna wind up being noc,pj,tyrus,(possibly the pick) for gasol which I dont think is too much for us to give ... I know a lot of people dont want to give up tyrus, but in getting gasol we have our franchise player and future pf for the next 5 years, while still retaining our big 3, I would do that in a second


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## ballerkingn (Nov 17, 2006)

My bet is the deal will be p.j,duh-no,sweet's,and our 2nd round pick's and 1st 09 draft pick. For gasol,and maybe a 2nd from them and an throw in player. but it won't happen till the deadline or THIS WEEK or during the all star break.But you wait i think they won't take deng or ben because why,they would both be up for ext at the end of this season and if the griz are trying to cut payroll they would want expering contract's back with draft pick's.In my deal they get all of those and won't have to worry about paying anybody for year's,which hopefully by then they can get thier finances under control.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Damian Necronamous said:


> He's retarded if he won't give Deng, Sefolosha, Brown and a first for Pau Gasol.
> 
> PG: Kirk Hinrich
> SG: Ben Gordon
> ...


Maybe it's not so much a question of "would" Paxson give up Deng, as it is a question of "does he even have to?" If this is a fire sale to get rid of contracts so the team can sell, then the market price is going to be dominated by what other teams are willing to give up, not Gasol's worth. Follow.

This appears to be a strange time in the NBA because most of the very few teams that have the assets to acquire Gasol (namely Atlanta and Toronto) aren't interested. And no one is going to give up an unprotected pick from this year. This leaves the Bulls competing against "B" offers from the Celtics and Golden State. 

All Pax has to do is give a little more than the rest, which doesn't appear to be that high of a price, and the Bulls may actually actually actually come away 'winning' a trade.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

such sweet thunder said:


> Maybe it's not so much a question of "would" Paxson give up Deng, as it is a question of "does he even have to?" If this is a fire sale to get rid of contracts so the team can sell, then the market price is going to be dominated by what other teams are willing to give up, not Gasol's worth. Follow.
> 
> This appears to be a strange time in the NBA because most of the very few teams that have the assets to acquire Gasol (namely Atlanta and Toronto) aren't interested. And no one is going to give up an unprotected pick from this year. This leaves the Bulls competing against "B" offers from the Celtics and Golden State.
> 
> All Pax has to do is give a little more than the rest, which doesn't appear to be that high of a price, and the Bulls may actually actually actually come away 'winning' a trade.


And if Gasol does not want to go to those teams, especially Boston as we are the only contender in the unique position, it will not cost us much.

I can see this deal happening at the deadline:

PJ, Duhon/Thabo, and '08/09 pick for Gasol. I would prefer to keep Thabo for the long run, as I think he is a very uniquely skilled player. A very poor version of Penny, but if he develops, he would be a solid poor man's Penny.

Deng and PJ, if or when that will be offered will get an immediate Yes from West. That's all it will take.

I don't think Skiles gives up Duhon, unless it is Pax making the decision that Thabo > Duhon. I'd like to get back Mighty Mouse, but we won't accept any extra contracts. I think Jerry will pay the Tax for the starting lineup, but maybe not for Noce. I can see us keeping Noce for the MLE or just over it. I am sure a team like the Spurs would throw their MLE toward Noce.

Who knows. Vets like to sign for 'contending' teams for cheap. Can you imagine if KG wanted to come here then. I doubt he opts out, and he'd likely take the sexy pick of Miami or Cleveland.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

ballerkingn said:


> My bet is the deal will be p.j,duh-no,sweet's,and our 2nd round pick's and 1st 09 draft pick. For gasol,and maybe a 2nd from them and an throw in player. but it won't happen till the deadline or THIS WEEK or during the all star break.But you wait i think they won't take deng or ben because why,they would both be up for ext at the end of this season and if the griz are trying to cut payroll they would want expering contract's back with draft pick's.In my deal they get all of those and won't have to worry about paying anybody for year's,which hopefully by then they can get thier finances under control.


I hope you're right. PJ, Duchump, Sweet-tooth & '09 1st would be ideal. I would DEFINITELY do that trade. 2nd rounders are just filler lol, no loss there.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

DaBullz4Sho said:


> I think the deal is gonna wind up being noc,pj,tyrus,(possibly the pick) for gasol which I dont think is too much for us to give ... I know a lot of people dont want to give up tyrus, but in getting gasol we have our franchise player and future pf for the next 5 years, while still retaining our big 3, I would do that in a second


That's way too much. Tyrus and the pick is overpaying. The pick itself could very well be overpaying for Gasol IMO.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Damian Necronamous said:


> He's retarded if he won't give Deng, Sefolosha, Brown and a first for Pau Gasol.
> 
> PG: Kirk Hinrich
> SG: Ben Gordon
> ...


Would he be "retarded" if he could get Gasol for less?


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Evidently a lot of my fellow Bulls' fans are delusional. Fellas, we aren't going to get an elite player like Pau Gasol for scraps like PJ, Duhon, Sweets and future first round picks. 

If that is the best Memphis can get - it won't be, and won't even be close - they can just keep him and trade him this summer. 

We are going to have to give to get. All this stuff about "overpaying" and "winning" is pointless, I think. We won't ever know if we could have gotten him for less. 

The only way we'll know if we didn't offer the right deal is if he gets traded to another team or doesn't get traded at all. 

I can't believe how little many fans are willing to give up to get the guy that is: (a) young; (b) elite; (c) fills our exact need; and (d) makes us by far the best team in the East for several years to come.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

such sweet thunder said:


> Maybe it's not so much a question of "would" Paxson give up Deng, as it is a question of "does he even have to?"


I think this is the issue. If the deadline goes by without a Gasol trade, then it's likely because Pax couldn't part with one of the big pieces (Deng and Gordon primarily). But until then, it's all speculation and Pax might just be holding out for a great deal rather than merely one that he can live with. He doesn't have to rush - this team is good enough to win games in the meantime, so it's not like we'll miss the playoffs if we don't pull the trigger on a Gasol trade NOW. Pax has til the deadline to get the best deal he can unless someone comes out of nowhere with an incredible offer for West. That seems unlikely, though nothing is impossible.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> Why? If Pax passes on the opportunity to see if the price will drop further I hope he has a better reason than his gut to believe this is as good as it gets.


How bad Gasol's value is going to drop? PJ + Thabo + and the pick? If I'm West I'll just trade Gasol to the Celtics. Al Jefferson is a really nice talent. PJ + Thabo + the pick just won't cut it (although I really hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see it). Gasol should be happy to play in Boston with Paul Pierce. Boston will be a very good team. They only have to sign good role players to support them.


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## SPIN DOCTOR (Oct 31, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Evidently a lot of my fellow Bulls' fans are delusional. Fellas, we aren't going to get an elite player like Pau Gasol for scraps like PJ, Duhon, Sweets and future first round picks.
> 
> If that is the best Memphis can get - it won't be, and won't even be close - they can just keep him and trade him this summer.
> 
> ...


I could not agree more with this post.

The Bulls have zero chance to get Gasol for table scraps, forget about it. If your strategy is to play a game of blink with Jerry West, your going to lose badly. But wait... there will be another scoring big available if we do not get this done... where?

Its going to cost us one of the core to make this trade happen, we have known for years that a deal like this would have to get done to take that next step. Just do it Pax.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Evidently a lot of my fellow Bulls' fans are delusional. Fellas, we aren't going to get an elite player like Pau Gasol for scraps like PJ, Duhon, Sweets and future first round picks.
> 
> If that is the best Memphis can get - it won't be, and won't even be close - they can just keep him and trade him this summer.
> 
> ...


Penguin, I'm right there with ya. I don't get it, but I'm sure glad a trade doesn't require this board's majority approval.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Evidently a lot of my fellow Bulls' fans are delusional. Fellas, we aren't going to get an elite player like Pau Gasol for scraps like PJ, Duhon, Sweets and future first round picks.
> 
> If that is the best Memphis can get - it won't be, and won't even be close - they can just keep him and trade him this summer.
> 
> ...


young -- Significant injuries in two of the last three seasons?

elite -- 19 and 8, one time all-star?

who fills exactly what we need -- I thought we also needed post on the ball defense?

makes us by far the best team in the east for several years -- Yikes. Wasn't Ben Wallace supposed to do that? 



> If that is the best Memphis can get - it won't be, and won't even be close - they can just keep him and trade him this summer.


Can they? The signes make me think he's gone regardless by the deadline. 



> vidently a lot of my fellow Bulls' fans are delusional. Fellas, we aren't going to get an elite player like Pau Gasol for scraps like PJ, Duhon, Sweets and future first round picks.


I never wrote that. But you have quoted other parts of my post. I don't like it when people do that. It Pax's Suck's.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/powerranking?season=2007&week=14
From the power rankings:



> The star is on the trading block. The owner is still trying to sell the team. The GM reportedly just put his house on the market. Must be fun working in Grizz ticket office.


I thought the snipit about West putting his house on the market was great for anyone who contends there isn't a fire sale in Memphis.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

RSP83 said:


> How bad Gasol's value is going to drop? PJ + Thabo + and the pick? If I'm West I'll just trade Gasol to the Celtics. Al Jefferson is a really nice talent. PJ + Thabo + the pick just won't cut it (although I really hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see it). Gasol should be happy to play in Boston with Paul Pierce. Boston will be a very good team. They only have to sign good role players to support them.


I already posted this in a different thread once today but there seems to be this bizarre notion that if the Bulls play hardball and West gets a substantially better offer from a team such as the Celtics he'll immediately pull the trigger and that'll be it. On the contrary, if we're working under the assumption that the Bulls are interested and can offer the most in a deal, West has every incentive to give the Bulls a chance to top another team's deal before he finalizes it. He's not going to say "Sorry John, you had your chance I'm going to spurn your superior offer and make this trade with the Celtics to teach you not to lowball me." West has every incentive in the world to get teams to bid against each other. The only serious concern the Bulls might have is that they can swoop in with a lowish offer now and strike a deal whereas if they wait other team's might become more agressive and drive Gasol's value up.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

such sweet thunder said:


> Maybe it's not so much a question of "would" Paxson give up Deng, as it is a question of "does he even have to?" If this is a fire sale to get rid of contracts so the team can sell, then the market price is going to be dominated by what other teams are willing to give up, not Gasol's worth. Follow.
> 
> This appears to be a strange time in the NBA because most of the very few teams that have the assets to acquire Gasol (namely Atlanta and Toronto) aren't interested. And no one is going to give up an unprotected pick from this year. This leaves the Bulls competing against "B" offers from the Celtics and Golden State.
> 
> All Pax has to do is give a little more than the rest, which doesn't appear to be that high of a price, and the Bulls may actually actually actually come away 'winning' a trade.


Exactly.



> Evidently a lot of my fellow Bulls' fans are delusional. Fellas, we aren't going to get an elite player like Pau Gasol for scraps like PJ, Duhon, Sweets and future first round picks.
> 
> If that is the best Memphis can get - it won't be, and won't even be close - they can just keep him and trade him this summer.


First of all, it's not delusional to pay as little as possible for Gasol.

Secondly, Gasol is not worth PJ+Deng or PJ + Gordon. In each case we give up a younger player of equal stature to Gasol PLUS salary relief. It would better if there were no trade at all. Adding a pick or TT is ridiculous.

Third, what makes you think there will be any better offers this summer? Teams that will be trading then will have even fewer assets-- in particular, expiring contracts will have to run for an entire year; which means Memphis will have to pay at least one year more of salary to high priced players. Keeping Gasol on the squad for the rest of the season can only make Memphis's record better, and their chances of getting a top pick in the draft worse. Better to dump Gasol now, tank the season, and get the Bulls 2007 pick swap, which virtually guarantees a great draft for the Grizzleys.

Memphis can replace Gasol with one of their picks in the 2007 draft, they can balance their budget, AND get a quality forward if they take Nocioni, Sweetney, PJ and the 2007 pick in exchange for Cardinal and Gasol. It's a good trade. A fair trade that benefits both teams. West can retire knowing he left the Grizzleys in good shape for the future, and the Bulls can win a few championships over the next 5-8 years.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> young -- Significant injuries in two of the last three seasons?


My understanding is that Pau's injuries are not of the recurring nature. I don't consider him a fragile player.



> elite -- 19 and 8, one time all-star?


He is an elite power forward/center in the NBA. He's one of the very best. 



> who fills exactly what we need -- I thought we also needed post on the ball defense?


He's a decent defender and good shot blocker. He can get it done just fine teaming up with Ben Wallace. 



> makes us by far the best team in the east for several years -- Yikes. Wasn't Ben Wallace supposed to do that?


Ben Wallace's impact is irrelevent. 

There is no team in the East that even sniffs this:

Hinrich
Gordon
Nocioni
Gasol
Wallace


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> I can't believe how little many fans are willing to give up to get the guy that is: (a) young; (b) elite; (c) fills our exact need; and (d) makes us by far the best team in the East for several years to come.


I think you're being a little loose with the term "elite." Gasol is very good, but hardly what I would consider elite.

EDIT:

To clarify, I would consider "elite" to be Shaq, Duncan, Howard, O'Neal, KG, etc. Gasol is a tier below these guys. He's not the perennial All-Star type. He's the borderline All-Star type. 

I'm not saying a deal is definitely possible without Deng/Gordon. What I'm saying is that I don't know that it's impossible, either, depending how much the Grizz need to cut salary. If Deng is traded for Gasol, that's ok with me, but I hardly think it is a slam dunk.

Is there really any reason to think Gasol over the long-term will be markedly more productive than Deng? The appeal of Gasol, to me, is that he fills a gaping need moreso than he is a clear upgrade over Luol from a talent perspective. You can't teach height, as they say. That's his value to this team.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

such sweet thunder said:


> I never wrote that. But you have quoted other parts of my post. I don't like it when people do that. It Pax's Suck's.


What are you talking about? I didn't quote you at all and never suggested that you did write it. 

I wasn't commenting on anything that you wrote in particular. I was commenting on the general tone of the "trade proposals" (a term I use very loosely to describe some of these ideas) and the general notion I've been reading for weeks about "overpaying" for Gasol.

Nothing I wrote was directed at you.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I think the question is how much do the Bulls need to give up, not how much can they. Those of you guys who seem exasperated that something hasn't been done and guys aren't tripping over themselves to give up our quality guys ought to consider that, even if we can give up more, the less we give up the better the chance we have of winning. *It seems to me there's a real game of chicken going on between West and Paxson.*

Smith's supposition is that the Griz don't _have_ to trade Gasol, but there's a lot of other facts and statements that lend support to the idea that they are going to, come hell or high water. They're losing money, he wants out, his agent is powerful and directing him here, the owner is selling, West looks like he's pulling up stakes, and numerous reports suggest he's been given the directive to move Gasol for whatever he can get and save money.

Pax could well look at all of that evidence and feels pretty confident that the threat to not trade Pau is a bluff, and in the end he can get him for less. It's already clear the offering price has come down a fair amount.

The Bulls, on the other hand, are in a position of some strength. Pax can look at his own team and his future assets, and think to himself that if he doesn't get Gasol it's not the end of the world.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

MikeDC said:


> I think the question is how much do the Bulls need to give up, not how much can they. Those of you guys who seem exasperated that something hasn't been done and guys aren't tripping over themselves to give up our quality guys ought to consider that, even if we can give up more, the less we give up the better the chance we have of winning. *It seems to me there's a real game of chicken going on between West and Paxson.*


The price of too much "chicken" and "what is the absolute minimum we can give up" may very well be a team that isn't as good as it could have been. 

The goal is to improve the team, not blow an opportunity based on a prideful need to "better" your trading partner. 

I don't give two ****s about "overpaying" so long as the end product is better than the beginning one now and for the foreseeable future. 

I agree its not the end of the world if the Bulls don't get Gasol. And there definitely are numerous variations of the trade that constitute an overpayment. But there are many, many variations that will make this team better. And they don't all consist of table scraps.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> The price of too much "chicken" and "what is the absolute minimum we can give up" may very well be a team that isn't as good as it could have been.
> 
> The goal is to improve the team, not blow an opportunity based on a prideful need to "better" your trading partner.
> 
> I don't give two ****s about "overpaying" so long as the end product is better than the beginning one now and for the foreseeable future.


It's not a matter of pride or the end result for anyone else. It's a matter of improving the team as much as possible, not just improving the team.

I mean, by the criteria you're laying out, we ought to have just traded Ben and Lou a couple weeks back. We'd be marginally better, I think.

I think there's a line of people forming to play cards with you 

A couple months back, I believe you said it'd be a "no brainer" (or something along those lines) if the Bulls could get AI for Gordon and change. The Bulls appear to have been one of two teams in the league that had zero interest in him.

Given what he went for, would Gordon have been overpayment? Of course, we wouldn't know he cou ld have been had formuch less. The absence of that knowledge, however, wouldn't mean we'd gotten the best deal possible. We would have made a crummy deal and just not known any better. But we'd be improved a bit.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> Evidently a lot of my fellow Bulls' fans are delusional. Fellas, we aren't going to get an elite player like Pau Gasol for scraps like PJ, Duhon, Sweets and future first round picks.
> 
> If that is the best Memphis can get - it won't be, and won't even be close - they can just keep him and trade him this summer.
> 
> ...


I agree with you that a number of the offers posters are throwing around are unrealistically low.

It seems you are implying that if West is unhappy with the offers he is receiving, he can resume negotiations in the summer at which point he will receive better offers. Unless GMs truly begin to fear he'll pull Gasol off the table long term, I'm not really sure why offers would improve.

It's true that we won't ever know exactly how little Memphis will accept but an excellent GM can artfully gauge the market for a player and the team's motivation to deal to get a pretty good idea. If Pax senses that West's desire to rid himself of this headache and sparse interest from other teams will lead Memphis to cave and accept a low offer in time, he should go that route. I don't think there's anything wrong with being greedy about how little you want to give up if you believe you have the leverage to do so.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I already posted this in a different thread once today but there seems to be this bizarre notion that if the Bulls play hardball and West gets a substantially better offer from a team such as the Celtics he'll immediately pull the trigger and that'll be it. On the contrary, if we're working under the assumption that the Bulls are interested and can offer the most in a deal, West has every incentive to give the Bulls a chance to top another team's deal before he finalizes it. He's not going to say "Sorry John, you had your chance I'm going to spurn your superior offer and make this trade with the Celtics to teach you not to lowball me." West has every incentive in the world to get teams to bid against each other. The only serious concern the Bulls might have is that they can swoop in with a lowish offer now and strike a deal whereas if they wait other team's might become more agressive and drive Gasol's value up.


I've never engineered a NBA trade, so I'm speaking from ignorance. However, I have done some talent negotiations.

What you say sounds right to me...to a point. While negotiations can be fun, there comes a point where people get tired of the game and want to close the deal. When there are multiple suitors, there's a danger in "lowballing." 

Say there are 3 suitors for a given talent and you've decided to lowball your offer and sit in 3rd place (you probably don't know what place you're in). You CAN get left out of the true "rubber meets the road" discussions because you just didn't show that you were serious enough.

There often comes a point in negotiations where one of your competitors says something like, "if you'll accept x, we've got a deal" to the talent. Maybe the talent will give you one last chance...maybe not. After the deal's done, it doesn't help much to tell the talent how far you really would have gone.

Again, maybe the NBA works very differently, but I do fear that "sticking to your guns" too long with a PJ+Thabo+the pick could be viewed as not being serious.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

Wanted to get some more people's opinions on this, so visited realgm and found this interesting comment:


> I don't think Pax is going to lose this game of poker. He probably went to West [similar to his contract negotiations with Duhon, for example], and said "this is what we think is fair market value right now. If you disagree, go out and get a better deal, and I'll match/raise if its not too much


Sort of looks like what he's doing.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> The price of too much "chicken" and "what is the absolute minimum we can give up" may very well be a team that isn't as good as it could have been.
> 
> The goal is to improve the team, not blow an opportunity based on a prideful need to "better" your trading partner.
> 
> ...


Sure, I'm just saying the Bulls need to heed the axiom that you never bid against yourself. The Bulls need to try to guage how much West needs to move Gasol (or whether he needs to) and, to the extent possible, what other teams are willing to give up to get him. There's no sense wowing West with a great offer if you would have been able to get Gasol for less. I assume the object of the game here is to obtain Gasol for the least value of the combined "pieces" possible.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> What are you talking about? I didn't quote you at all and never suggested that you did write it.
> 
> I wasn't commenting on anything that you wrote in particular. I was commenting on the general tone of the "trade proposals" (a term I use very loosely to describe some of these ideas) and the general notion I've been reading for weeks about "overpaying" for Gasol.
> 
> Nothing I wrote was directed at you.


This is what I wrote:



> All Pax has to do is give a little more than the rest, which doesn't appear to be that high of a price, and the Bulls may actually actually actually come away 'winning' a trade.


This is what you wrote:



> We are going to have to give to get. All this stuff about "overpaying" and "winning" is pointless, I think. We won't ever know if we could have gotten him for less.


I think it was reasonable to believe your post was responding to me -- and mischaracterizing my comments. You've been around long enough to know what I'm talking about: someone makes a general response to the comments in a thread, and lumps your thoughts in with others that you don't agree with, and then goes about attacking the sentiments you never held in the first place. 

Ben Wallace is rellevent because it showcases the same mistake _we_ may be making in our evaluations of Gasol. We see a level B star -- and by that I mean not Kobe or Wade -- and we think he can take us to the promised land. It's the classic team mired in mediocrity that starts flaining around trying to get over the top. Things can go bad from here. 

I've seen you write over and over again that Pau is not injury prone, but his career does not show that. And by continually writing that you are just showing your "stripes." You have to at least admit that there is real possibility that the rest of his career is going to look like the last three years. 

I'm not opposed to trading for Pau Gasol. But I do give two ****s about paying even if the end product is better than the one we had before.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> It's not a matter of pride or the end result for anyone else. It's a matter of improving the team as much as possible, not just improving the team.
> 
> I mean, by the criteria you're laying out, we ought to have just traded Ben and Lou a couple weeks back. We'd be marginally better, I think.
> 
> ...


From the Sam Smith article, we know West is scouting in Europe. I doubt he trades Gasol while he's in Europe. I'm not sure if he'd be willing to conduct some business from there (probably), but I doubt he would finalize anything until he comes back.

I hear what Ron Cey is saying. I want Gasol, I think he's nearly perfect, and I don't think we'll ever do better. I hope Pax doesn't play too much hardball. I don't want to lose a big like this. In recent history, we've been the ones trading the impact big (Brand, Curry, Chandler may qualify). When West gets back, let's pony up and get him before somebody else gets trigger happy and makes an offer he can't refuse.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

I'm thinking that IF the edict has been handed down that Gasol is to be traded because of current and future financial concerns - West pretty much HAS to move Gasol by the trade deadline. If he waits until the summer, first of all, the teams with expiring contracts now won't be the same teams this summer. Secondly, any expirings that may be looked at this summer will be another year out for the Grizz. In other words, they can trade for expiring contracts now, in essence freeing up over $10 mil in annual payroll starting this summer, or they wait the summer and basically have the same payroll for the 07-08 season as they have now. (I'm just looking at Gasol and his salary and what would have to be taken back by the Grizz to make a trade work - I have no clue if Memphis has their own expiring contracts that end this summer). 

So, if the goal is to shed salary, waiting for the summer doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. Either the Grizz pay Gasol for 07-08 or they pay a player or two the same $14 mil. I'd think Heisley would very much prefer to net around $8 mil or so in the difference between Gasol and, say their first and the Knicks first (probably around $6 mil combined first year salary). If not, the Grizz are looking at paying Gasol (or some summer/draft day trade) where they STILL have to pay someone(s) his/their $14 mil plus their draft pick. All things being equal, their payroll would prety much go up unless they deal with a team VERY far under the cap where they don't have to match salaries...

If Heisley is wanting to shed salary - Gasol will get moved by the 22nd.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

fl_flash said:


> I'm thinking that IF the edict has been handed down that Gasol is to be traded because of current and future financial concerns - West pretty much HAS to move Gasol by the trade deadline. If he waits until the summer, first of all, the teams with expiring contracts now won't be the same teams this summer. Secondly, any expirings that may be looked at this summer will be another year out for the Grizz. In other words, they can trade for expiring contracts now, in essence freeing up over $10 mil in annual payroll starting this summer, or they wait the summer and basically have the same payroll for the 07-08 season as they have now. (I'm just looking at Gasol and his salary and what would have to be taken back by the Grizz to make a trade work - I have no clue if Memphis has their own expiring contracts that end this summer).
> 
> So, if the goal is to shed salary, waiting for the summer doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. Either the Grizz pay Gasol for 07-08 or they pay a player or two the same $14 mil. I'd think Heisley would very much prefer to net around $8 mil or so in the difference between Gasol and, say their first and the Knicks first (probably around $6 mil combined first year salary). If not, the Grizz are looking at paying Gasol (or some summer/draft day trade) where they STILL have to pay someone(s) his/their $14 mil plus their draft pick. All things being equal, their payroll would prety much go up unless they deal with a team VERY far under the cap where they don't have to match salaries...
> 
> If Heisley is wanting to shed salary - Gasol will get moved by the 22nd.


Exactly. And Gasol asked to be traded on a bad team. We still don't know if he's going to be happy going to Portland or the Cs.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

fl_flash said:


> I'm thinking that IF the edict has been handed down that Gasol is to be traded because of current and future financial concerns - West pretty much HAS to move Gasol by the trade deadline. If he waits until the summer, first of all, the teams with expiring contracts now won't be the same teams this summer. Secondly, any expirings that may be looked at this summer will be another year out for the Grizz. In other words, they can trade for expiring contracts now, in essence freeing up over $10 mil in annual payroll starting this summer, or they wait the summer and basically have the same payroll for the 07-08 season as they have now. (I'm just looking at Gasol and his salary and what would have to be taken back by the Grizz to make a trade work - I have no clue if Memphis has their own expiring contracts that end this summer).
> 
> So, if the goal is to shed salary, waiting for the summer doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense. Either the Grizz pay Gasol for 07-08 or they pay a player or two the same $14 mil. I'd think Heisley would very much prefer to net around $8 mil or so in the difference between Gasol and, say their first and the Knicks first (probably around $6 mil combined first year salary). If not, the Grizz are looking at paying Gasol (or some summer/draft day trade) where they STILL have to pay someone(s) his/their $14 mil plus their draft pick. All things being equal, their payroll would prety much go up unless they deal with a team VERY far under the cap where they don't have to match salaries...
> 
> If Heisley is wanting to shed salary - Gasol will get moved by the 22nd.



I agree with this. Also, when I read that the Grizz fans are roundly booing Gasol, it made me happy. When you've got the worst record in the league and your fans have turned on your centerpiece, you may talk about patience, but it's easier said than done. 

I also expect Gasol to be in a new uni by the deadline.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> I mean, by the criteria you're laying out, we ought to have just traded Ben and Lou a couple weeks back. We'd be marginally better, I think.


When I first heard about that deal, I was willing to do it. Gasol-Wallace-Nocioni-Hinrich-Duhon is probably a 54 win team in the east, and we'd still have Tyrus, Thabo, a high draft pick, and the MLE. 

Now that the Grizzlies want financial flexibility instead of talent, the Bulls can offer much less. In fact, Chicago is probably the only team in the league that has both the expiring contracts and a "win now" team that Gasol will be happy on. Portland turned down Aldridge/Rodriguez/Magloire for Gasol not because it's a bad deal talent-wise but because they won't be ready to compete for a few years. 

Who else has expiring contracts? Philly? New Orleans?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> Exactly. And Gasol asked to be traded on a bad team. We still don't know if he's going to be happy going to Portland or the Cs.


I think I read somewhere that he "didn't want to go to the Celtics".

*fl_flash, that's a great point on the finances of waiting. 
*


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Removing this from the abstract,this is what I think is possible:

Tyrus Thomas, P.J. Brown and our 2008 (not 2007) first round draft pick.

It's the classic Elton Brand for Tyson Chandler trade, except we're in the position of power and our star hasn't let it be known that he may ask for a trade.

Tyrus could one day be better than Pau. He's freakish. We all like him a lot despite his meager production, and you have to believe that West sees the same things. There's a big salary cut enabling the sale of the franchise, and what I would anticipate is a low first rounder two years from now as pudding.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> When I first heard about that deal, I was willing to do it. Gasol-Wallace-Nocioni-Hinrich-Duhon is probably a 54 win team in the east, and we'd still have Tyrus, Thabo, a high draft pick, and the MLE.
> 
> Now that the Grizzlies want financial flexibility instead of talent, the Bulls can offer much less. In fact, Chicago is probably the only team in the league that has both the expiring contracts and a "win now" team that Gasol will be happy on. Portland turned down Aldridge/Rodriguez/Magloire for Gasol not because it's a bad deal talent-wise but because they won't be ready to compete for a few years.
> 
> Who else has expiring contracts? Philly? New Orleans?


My guess is Gasol would complain about going to Philly so they wouldn't trade for him.

I don't know how he'd feel about the Hornets, but they've got expiring contracts (Des Mason and Marc Jackson) and David West, who's not a bad player at all.

If Peja ever gets healthy, a Chandler/Gasol/Peja/Chris Paul lineup could do some damage.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

Just a question.

If all we hear is accurate, the cat's kind of out of the bag with respect to the NEED to trade Gasol. The need seems to be there.

Gasol played a large part in putting the Grizz in this trick bag.

While I'm sure Gasol would like to go to a contending team, but at this point, why should Grizz management go out of their way to make Gasol happy?


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> I've seen you write over and over again that Pau is not injury prone, but his career does not show that. And by continually writing that you are just showing your "stripes." You have to at least admit that there is real possibility that the rest of his career is going to look like the last three years.


We went through this a coupla months ago when I was lobbying for a Gasol trade. There are injuries, and then there are injuries. 

Plantar fascitis sucks when you're dealing with it, but it's usually not indicative of any kind of underlying structural problem, particularly in an athlete. Pau has made a full recovery from it.

http://www.webmd.com/hw/foot_problems/hw114513.asp

And the foot fracture was a complete and utter fluke. A broken fifth metatarsal is referred to as "the Martha's Vineyard fracture," and if Pau wasn't an elite NBA player worth tens of millions of dollars, he might not have even sought medical attention for it:

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/articles/060821ta_talk_collins

Gasol seems to me to be at the same general risk for injuries as any other NBA player -- note that these two injuries are unrelated. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest that taller players suffer more foot and knee injuries than shorter ones, I 'spose.

I still don't understand the school of thought that suggests West has to make this deal by the deadline. If anything, he (or his successor) will have more options in the summertime, not less.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

transplant said:


> Just a question.
> 
> If all we hear is accurate, the cat's kind of out of the bag with respect to the NEED to trade Gasol. The need seems to be there.
> 
> ...


It's not that the Griz would go out of their way to make him happy, but that other teams don't want to trade for a guy who doesn't want to play for them.

Who needs that headache?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> We went through this a coupla months ago when I was lobbying for a Gasol trade. There are injuries, and then there are injuries.
> 
> Plantar fascitis sucks when you're dealing with it, but it's usually not indicative of any kind of underlying structural problem, particularly in an athlete. Pau has made a full recovery from it.
> 
> ...


How? fl_flash's point was a good one. Wait to trade him and you're obligating yourself to pay another $10M or so, at a minimum.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> It's not a matter of pride or the end result for anyone else. It's a matter of improving the team as much as possible, not just improving the team.


That's not true. Many fans are saying "absolutely not" to trades that would most definitely improve the team. As in no trade. Period. End of discussion type stuff. They are not saying, "that's too much *right now*, but if it comes down to the 11th hour and that is what it takes then I guess we should do it if the alternative is no Gasol."



> I mean, by the criteria you're laying out, we ought to have just traded Ben and Lou a couple weeks back. We'd be marginally better, I think.


No. I don't think I'm making myself very clear. First, from minute 1 I said Ben and Luol is a non-starter. There is such a thing as an overpayment here. I'm not suggesting that a deal "must" be done.

Second, I'm not suggesting that Paxson should just jump right now at this moment and offer up Deng or Gordon and the Knicks pick. That would be stupid.

I don't have a problem with him staring down West for a while and seeing if the price comes down. Its exactly what he should do. 

But on the final minute of the final day, he better damn well offer up Deng if it means the difference between having Pau Gasol as our starting forward for the next 5 years vs. not having him. 



> I think there's a line of people forming to play cards with you


I totally understand the biding of time. I'm all for it. But if Paxson waits too long or gets to cute worrying about what Jerry might have been willing to take, it could cost us a significant upgrade that, in my opinion, puts us in the top 3/4 for title contention for several years to come. 



> A couple months back, I believe you said it'd be a "no brainer" (or something along those lines) if the Bulls could get AI for Gordon and change. The Bulls appear to have been one of two teams in the league that had zero interest in him.


Did I say that? I'm not sure if I said it or not. Though I am a big AI fan, I don't recall being all that excited about getting him to Chicago. But I drank a lot yesterday and my brain isn't working too well right now, so I'll just take your word for it.

That said, I don't see why the Bulls' lack of interest in AI matters today. 



> Given what he went for, would Gordon have been overpayment? Of course, we wouldn't know he cou ld have been had formuch less. The absence of that knowledge, however, wouldn't mean we'd gotten the best deal possible. We would have made a crummy deal and just not known any better. But we'd be improved a bit.


Oh, now I get the relevence. Basically, you can never know these things *and* get the player. If you get him, you'll never know what the minimum requirement really was. The only way you'll know is if you don't get him.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> It's not that the Griz would go out of their way to make him happy, but that other teams don't want to trade for a guy who doesn't want to play for them.
> 
> Who needs that headache?


Completely fair, but I would guess that most of those teams would weed themselves out of the bidding process, i.e., they wouldn't be serious bidders to begin with since it's their headache.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I wouldn't say it never happens that a player gets sent somewhere regardless of his desire (I don't think Chris Webber wanted to go to the Kings), but the more frequent occurance is that a team bows out (AI to the Bobcats) or doesn't make an offer in the first place.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> Tyrus could one day be better than Pau.


I wouldn't rule it out, but aren't the chances pretty slim? 

Gasol just turned 21 before entering the NBA -- a year old than TT is now -- and immediately rang up 18/9 on 52% shooting.

Yeah, his team dynamic was different, but I suspect that even on a championship-level team, Gasol would have been playing more than 10 mpg. I agree that Skiles needs to give TT more time, but only in that there should never be a game where TT doesn't get his 10-12 minutes. He's not ready to play more than that right now.

I think TT is quite a long ways away -- hugely so on offense -- and I don't know that he's big enough to be a long-term, Russell-esque defensive force. 

Gasol is a pretty darn good player, folks.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> We went through this a coupla months ago when I was lobbying for a Gasol trade. There are injuries, and then there are injuries.
> 
> Plantar fascitis sucks when you're dealing with it, but it's usually not indicative of any kind of underlying structural problem, particularly in an athlete. Pau has made a full recovery from it.
> 
> ...


All educmucated analysis aside , some players are merely more injury prone than others; it's not necessarily a question of toughness or preexisting conditions.

We know Pau has been kept out of a number of seasons for non-related issues. Has Pau shown a predisposition to random injuries? Not yet. But there is a foundation to suspect that he may.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> How? fl_flash's point was a good one. Wait to trade him and you're obligating yourself to pay another $10M or so, at a minimum.


That's not an exorbitant price to pay to significantly expand the number of teams able and willing to discuss a trade with you, is it? I'm not saying that expanding the field will also expand the quality of offers, but it stands to reason that it will.


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## Orange Julius Irving (Jun 28, 2004)

This whole scenario confirms to me a few things.

Location Matters. Jerry West WAS a great GM when he was in LA. Many of the modern-day Basketball players are looking to play in warm-weather locations where there is a night-life.

The only thing Chicago has going for it is a Major-Market and the chance for huge endorsement deals. Other than that players would rather loose and be somewhere comfortable. 

There just isn't much in Memphis for a young person who isn't a country music lover to be happy about.

Jerry West doesn't have the mojo he had with LA and his reputation has meant NOTHING. Kobe didn't follow him like many though he would, Shaq didn't follow him even though West originally stole Shaq from Orlando. 

The idea that West is going to school somebody on this trade based on his past is not based in reality. Memphis may have had a couple winning seasons but have yet to even win a Playoff game.

Pax is defintely in the driver's seat on this trade and should be able to get Gasol for scraps if Memphis is really trying to cut salary, go for draft picks and rebuild.

I think it's funny how there are people who think management should always overpay for players. Sam Smith really hit the nail on the head a few weeks ago when he said in a Q&A column that BB is a business just like any other.

I also think it's funny that some people think The Bulls will always get the worst of any trade or draft. The have been many bad trades by other teams and the Bulls have been bested more than once but I think it's totally possible and NOT unrealistic to think the Bulls could steal Gasol and not give up anything significant in the process.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> I wouldn't rule it out, but aren't the chances pretty slim?
> 
> Gasol just turned 21 before entering the NBA -- a year old than TT is now -- and immediately rang up 18/9 on 52% shooting.
> 
> ...


Agreed. And that's why the Bulls would win the trade. Tyrus is a high draft pick, which counts for something, with a lot of potential. I view my stated move as the best possible trade that could actually happen.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> All educmucated analysis aside , some players are merely more injury prone than others; it's not necessarily a question of toughness or preexisting conditions.
> 
> We know Pau has been kept out of a number of seasons for non-related issues. Has Pau shown a predisposition to random injuries? Not yet. But there is a foundation to suspect that he may.


Gasol's first 5 full seasons: 82 games, 82 games, 78 games, 56 games and 80 games. 30+ mpg every season.

You sir, are a tough grader.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> That's not an exorbitant price to pay to significantly expand the number of teams able and willing to discuss a trade with you, is it? I'm not saying that expanding the field will also expand the quality of offers, but it stands to reason that it will.


Yeah, but does Heisley care about this team. It seems like he's just trying to cut and run. Most owners would pay 10 million so your team doesn't get reamed, but that doesn't mean Heisley will.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> I think it was reasonable to believe your post was responding to me -- and mischaracterizing my comments. You've been around long enough to know what I'm talking about: someone makes a general response to the comments in a thread, and lumps your thoughts in with others that you don't agree with, and then goes about attacking the sentiments you never held in the first place.


Sure, but that isn't what I was doing. I didn't even notice that you'd posted in the thread. If I'm responding to what one person specifically wrote, I quote it. 

Sorry the confusion bothered you, but I was not writing anything directed at you or anything you wrote. 



> Ben Wallace is rellevent because it showcases the same mistake _we_ may be making in our evaluations of Gasol. We see a level B star -- and by that I mean not Kobe or Wade -- and we think he can take us to the promised land. It's the classic team mired in mediocrity that starts flaining around trying to get over the top. Things can go bad from here.


The Bulls are a better team with Wallace. And they'll be even better with Wallace and Gasol. And those are two completely different players with completely different skills, ages, benefits, detriments, etc. 



> I've seen you write over and over again that Pau is not injury prone, but his career does not show that. And by continually writing that you are just showing your "stripes."


I said that I don't think he's fragile. And I don't. I don't really get the attitude. 



> You have to at least admit that there is real possibility that the rest of his career is going to look like the last three years.


No I don't. In the 2004 season, Gasol missed a game which broke a streak of 240 consecutive games which, at the time was the 6th longest active streak in the NBA. He didn't get injured again until he missed 23 games with plantar fasciitis the next season. 

This summer's injury was a freak foot fracture not prone to reaggrivation from what I've read. It appears to have been an isolated incident. 

I recall ScottMay mentioning this, perhaps he can enlighten us. EDIT: He already did. Thanks Scott.



> I'm not opposed to trading for Pau Gasol. But I do give two ****s about paying *even if the end product is better than the one we had before*.


Wow. I can't believe that any fan of any team in any sport would evaluate a trade in such a way. The goal is to improve, not to "win" trades. To me, the improvement is the win. 

To hell with the rest of it.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

transplant said:


> Gasol's first 5 full seasons: 82 games, 82 games, 78 games, 56 games and 80 games. 30+ mpg every season.
> 
> You sir, are a tough grader.


We're saying the same thing: two of Pau's last three seasons have been mired by injury.

It's a risk that you're willing to put up with. But it makes trading Deng or Gordon scary. Especially when you may not have to.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

transplant said:


> Just a question.
> 
> If all we hear is accurate, the cat's kind of out of the bag with respect to the NEED to trade Gasol. The need seems to be there.
> 
> ...


Memphis does not need to make him happy. But losing teams are far less likely to trade for Gasol in the middle of the season. Consider Portland. 

Most lottery teams will not want to jeopardize their draft standing for a player who has shown he is unable to make average teams elite. If a team trades for Gasol, they are essentially giving up a high draft pick for a much lower one, even they don't trade that asset. They will also have to deal with an unhappy player. 

If the Bulls were 5-10 games under .500, would you trade for Gasol knowing he's never won a playoff game, or would you want future flexibility and a shot at Oden or Noah or Wright or Hawes? 

So, the only teams that should want to trade for Gasol are good, competing teams that want to become elite. Right now, however, almost every team that is competing for the playoffs does not have the young talent on cheap contracts and/or the expiring contracts that the Grizzlies want. Chicago, and maybe Orlando and New Orleans are the only exceptions I can think of.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

such sweet thunder said:


> All educmucated analysis aside , some players are merely more injury prone than others; it's not necessarily a question of toughness or preexisting conditions.
> 
> We know Pau has been kept out of a number of seasons for non-related issues. Has Pau shown a predisposition to random injuries? Not yet. But there is a foundation to suspect that he may.


If he finishes off the season, he'll have played 90% of NBA games available to him. He'll have missed two stretches with unlrelated, non-chronic injuries. 

There is not enough of a foundation to not trade for a guy as unique as him.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> That's not an exorbitant price to pay to significantly expand the number of teams able and willing to discuss a trade with you, is it? I'm not saying that expanding the field will also expand the quality of offers, but it stands to reason that it will.


Define "significantly expanding the number of teams"... I don't know what would be available to the Grizz this summer that isn't available to them now. I've got to believe that rather than expanding the number of players in the Gasol Game, that simply, there will be different parties at the table. The Bulls may well drop out because they'd no longer have expiring contracts to offer. Possibly the Knicks take their place. I'm just not sure that West would have many more options than he has now.

Also, I'm going off the admittedly unfounded premise that Heisley is pretty much tired of cutting a check for $10-$20 mil each year to pay for his teams operating losses. Even for a billionaire, that's gotta hurt a little to part with that much liquidity each year. If (and it's a big if) the goal is to shed salary so that Heisley doesn't have to cut that check each year - the waiting for the summer nets him next to nothing in terms of achieving that goal. The only way to shed salary in the offseason is to work with a team very far under the cap - that would be severely depleating the number of players at the table in the Gasol Game. Not a good barganing position for the Grizz. If not - the Grizz either pay Gasol for 07-08 or they pay whomever they trade him for. All things being equal; why trade him if that's the case?

West may have more options available to him this summer. Sign and trades and the like. If salaries aren't an issue, then in principle I agree with you. Wait for the summer and there should be more options to make a deal. If trimming payroll is the goal, then waiting for the summer won't get Heisley much, if anything, in terms of real savings. I just get the feeling that Heisley wants out and it's gotta be tough to sell an enterprise that is losing 10's of millions annualy. Get 'em in the black and at least you've got a somewhat easier sell... Two and a half weeks to go and we'll see what happens!


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> We're saying the same thing: two of Pau's last three seasons have been mired by injury.
> 
> It's a risk that you're willing to put up with. But it makes trading Deng or Gordon scary. Especially when you may not have to.


It's true that the facts are the facts...we both have to deal with 'em. Our conclusions are different. 

I don't believe in injury-prone when injuries are unrelated. I do worry about players who seem to maximize their time off from minor injuries. Gasol doesn't appear to be this type and I can't ignore his first 3 seasons.

I do agree that the Bulls should only give up what they need to GET HIM...but I DO want to make sure we get him.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Lots of bad assumptions being made in this thread to justify titilating one another with some horrible trade offers.

The Grizz are having a firesale - the Grizzlies will be under the cap with Pau Gasol on the payroll. No need to reduce costs further to be in the black.

West is running - West's contract was up at season's end and it was a known fact that this would be his last season as GM because he wants to see his son play college ball.

The Grizz have to trade Pau due to fan discontent - NBA GMs do not make decisions based on fan unhappiness, especially decisions that would just piss the fans off more.

Pau Gasol is just good - Pau has flaws but to say any current Bulls player will EVER be better than Pau has been is taking a quantam leap. It is the assumption of infinite upside in which fans see their young players fulfilling all their potential and having no defeciencies.

This summer the offers will be lower - Lower than some of the crap offers in this thread? Doubtful. If you think the market for 7 foot post players in their prime will dry up this summer, you are dreaming.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

transplant said:


> Completely fair, but I would guess that most of those teams would weed themselves out of the bidding process, i.e., they wouldn't be serious bidders to begin with since it's their headache.


I think they probably are/have, although some of that stuff doesn't reveal itself until you at least talk about it. That may have happened in the case of the Celtics with Gasol, for example.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

transplant said:


> Say there are 3 suitors for a given talent and you've decided to lowball your offer and sit in 3rd place (you probably don't know what place you're in). You CAN get left out of the true "rubber meets the road" discussions because you just didn't show that you were serious enough.
> 
> There often comes a point in negotiations where one of your competitors says something like, "if you'll accept x, we've got a deal" to the talent. Maybe the talent will give you one last chance...maybe not. After the deal's done, it doesn't help much to tell the talent how far you really would have gone.


Right. I think that here Pax has the fact that his presence helps West with negotiations and the fact that the Bulls are such an obvious fit in his favor.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

transplant said:


> Completely fair, but I would guess that most of those teams would weed themselves out of the bidding process, i.e., they wouldn't be serious bidders to begin with since it's their headache.


It depends on how optimistic and aware they are when it comes to the player's preferences. There may not be any truth to it but there was a rumor that Charlotte backed out of the Iverson talks after serious negotiations when he balked at playing there.

Edit: My mistake, I'd originally written Memphis instead of Charlotte.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> That's not an exorbitant price to pay to significantly expand the number of teams able and willing to discuss a trade with you, is it? I'm not saying that expanding the field will also expand the quality of offers, but it stands to reason that it will.


That all depends on the extent of the Grizzlies desire to save money. All the talk about them around here seems like complete speculation so who knows?

I don't feel like I've heard an explanation of why waiting to the offseason increases the number of bidders yet.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> Lots of bad assumptions being made in this thread to justify titilating one another with some horrible trade offers.
> 
> The Grizz are having a firesale - the Grizzlies will be under the cap with Pau Gasol on the payroll. No need to reduce costs further to be in the black.
> 
> ...


The reason teams generally have firesales is because disgruntled players are a massive headache. This is why Iverson, Shaq, and Carter were dealt. Teams are generally unwilling to keep players around for an extended period of time after a public trade demand. I have no conclusive proof that West won't be a hardass and attempt to buck that trend but I think the 180 he's done on whether or not Gasol is available is telling. You're right that teams don't hold firesales because fans become unhappy with a player but it might add some additional pressure. I don't proclaim to know anything about Memphis' financial situation but I believe there is a strong argument that if the team is determined to move Gasol soon, some thrifty owners might not be willing to eat $8 or $10 million to maximize the return.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> Lots of bad assumptions being made in this thread to justify titilating one another with some horrible trade offers.
> 
> The Grizz are having a firesale - the Grizzlies will be under the cap with Pau Gasol on the payroll. No need to reduce costs further to be in the black.
> 
> ...


Let me reply to this. 

*1. The relative value of Gasol compared to Bulls stars.*
I think most people on the board not only think Gasol is a very good player, but he is also someone who would fit in very nicely with the Bulls. That said, it requires no leap of faith to assume that Ben Gordon is one of the premier scorers in the NBA who will almost certainly get better. Paxson and the fans on this board think it makes little sense to add Gasol at the expense of losing Gordon. Forget it, it ain't in the cards, no matter what the details of the deal are.

It takes a little more faith to believe that the 21 year old Deng will continue to improve his game at the same pace as he already has for the next few years. However, if you took a vote of the members of this board now, you would find a plurality of us believe that he is the best player on the Bulls team. My impression is that a plurality would nonetheless agree to include him in a trade for Gasol. Personally, I would not do it. I just see too much upside in the kid. But I can see how it might seem to be a fair trade. *What I strongly take issue with is the idea that somehow the Bulls have to throw in additional assets like picks or Tyrus Thomas. Forget it. Keep your precious, expensive big guy!*

*The importance of salary savings*
Whether Memphis is nearly balancing it's budget or not (and based on the Forbes analysis it seems unlikely) there is significant asymmetry in the budgetary concerns of the Bulls and Grizzleys. The Bulls are one of the most profitable, if not the THE most profitable team in the NBA, while the Grizzleys, indisputably are in some trouble and it is rumored that ownership is looking to sell the franchise. Money matters to both team's owners, but clearly $15 million means a lot more to Memphis than it does to Chicago. 
The point is that *salary savings matter -- particularly to Memphis at this point in time*. *The Bulls can help, but they deserve to get something in return.*

*The significance of West's resignation*
One can reasonably speculate that West is leaving the Memphis for other reasons in addition to those he has stated -- it would hardly be unusual if it were so. But what is undeniable is that he has initiated trade negotiations that he will presumably not be able to complete if he waits until July. Most people who are leaving their job and entering retirement like to leave a clean desk. I'm sure Jerry West would like the leave the Grizzleys in good finacial and basketball condition when he leaves. Trading Gasol before the deadline fits both agendas.

*The role of Memphis fans*
It's true that a good GM doesn't check the internet chat boards every day to see what the value of his players are. But if Gasol is being booed by the few loyal season ticket holders who turn out for the games to support the team, it would be obtuse to dismiss their unhappiness out of hand. It certainly adds to the pressure to trade him, and helps excuse any weakness that might be perceived in the return he brings in trade.

*Summer offers for Gasol*
Maybe there will be better offers for Gasol this summer, maybe not. However, there are three things for sure: 
1. Any expiring contracts taken in trade will have to reside in Memphis for a year and be paid. 
2. Memphis will be a better team in the second half of this season, which compromises their chances of winning a top pick in the lottery.
3. The Bulls will not be a trading partner without Brown's expiring contract.


So, like it or not, the "bad assumptions" made by many posters on this board are supported by good logic.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Great post. Must spread rep and all that.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

I am still sticking to Deng, Brown + a protected 1st in this draft ( top 7 ) or a 2008 unconditional first for Gasol is reasonable


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I already posted this in a different thread once today but there seems to be this bizarre notion that if the Bulls play hardball and West gets a substantially better offer from a team such as the Celtics he'll immediately pull the trigger and that'll be it. On the contrary, if we're working under the assumption that the Bulls are interested and can offer the most in a deal, West has every incentive to give the Bulls a chance to top another team's deal before he finalizes it. He's not going to say "Sorry John, you had your chance I'm going to spurn your superior offer and make this trade with the Celtics to teach you not to lowball me." West has every incentive in the world to get teams to bid against each other. The only serious concern the Bulls might have is that they can swoop in with a lowish offer now and strike a deal whereas if they wait other team's might become more agressive and drive Gasol's value up.


Perfectly put.

I also agree with Ron Cey that we aren't going to get Pau for scraps. I also think it would be great to work out a deal that doesn't involve Kirk, Ben, Deng, or the Knick pick as well.

That's why we start with a low offer and let West try and facilitate the best package. We shouldn't up the ante until West finds a deal with another team more acceptable than the package the Bulls are currently offering. Paxson can then wait it out until close to the trade deadline to up the ante. West isn't going to accept another team's deal without a final phone call to all the other teams interested in Gasol.

It seems that Memphis has come down in the value back that they are willing to accept. Paxson hasn't budged. I think this is a very good sign and indicates we have a lot of leverage.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> The price of too much "chicken" and "what is the absolute minimum we can give up" may very well be a team that isn't as good as it could have been.
> 
> The goal is to improve the team, not blow an opportunity based on a prideful need to "better" your trading partner.
> 
> ...


It seems you are concerned that West will back off from dealing Pau at the last minute. I'm sure he will give us equal opportunity to up the ante one final time if that is the case.

Negotiations usually end in the middle. Paxson started his bid low and West started his offer high. West reduced his offer price, while Paxson has not yet had to change his bid. That's usually a good sign for the buyer.

It's frustrating as a passionate fan to not know what is going on. That doesn't mean Paxson should not do his due diligence and try and get the most for his money. West is trying to do the same.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Rhyder said:


> It seems you are concerned that West will back off from dealing Pau at the last minute. I'm sure he will give us equal opportunity to up the ante one final time if that is the case.
> 
> Negotiations usually end in the middle. Paxson started his bid low and West started his offer high. West reduced his offer price, while Paxson has not yet had to change his bid. That's usually a good sign for the buyer.
> 
> It's frustrating as a passionate fan to not know what is going on. That doesn't mean Paxson should not do his due diligence and try and get the most for his money. West is trying to do the same.


In a perfect world, you might be right. But it is not a perfect world.

West may despise Paxson and refuse to trade with him. He may feel insulted by the Bulls' offer and want nothing to do with a trade with the team anymore. I'm not suggesting these two examples are true, but they are just two examples of the kinds of things that make deals go sour in all walks of life.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

> Gasol to Chicago?
> 
> The team with the best chance of making a deal with the Grizzlies is the Chicago Bulls. *Grizzlies president Jerry West wants forward Luol Deng (6-9, 21 years old), forward Andres Nocioni (6-7, 27), and veteran P.J. Brown (6-11, 37) and his expiring contract.*
> 
> ...


From the Memphis papers...

So Noc & Deng huh?

G Hinrich / Duhon
G Gordon / Sefolosha
F Thomas / Khyrapa
F Gasol / Sweetney
C Wallace / -


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Rhyder said:


> It seems that Memphis has come down in the value back that they are willing to accept. Paxson hasn't budged. I think this is a very good sign and indicates we have a lot of leverage.


If you believe some sources, we're the only team who's made an even semi-serious offer. Personally I expect that if Boston had offered Jefferson, discussions with the Bulls and Celtics would have heated up much more by now. If this is the case and Memphis is determined to move Gasol, the only leverage West would have left at this point is to sit back and wait for better offers and even that minimal leverage would expire before too long. The possibility that Memphis could refuse to honor Gasol's trade request ("This is not a fire sale. We still have all the leverage here." as West would say) remains intruiging. If that's the case though and the offers have really been so unimpressive you'd think West might've played that card already and either threatened to hault discussions or even temporarily take Gasol off the market. The fact that he hasn't suggests to me that either 1) Memphis is resolved to move Gasol sooner rather than later 2) West believes substantial progress with Paxson (ie an increase in the Bulls' offer) is forthcoming.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> In a perfect world, you might be right. But it is not a perfect world.
> 
> West may despise Paxson and refuse to trade with him. He may feel insulted by the Bulls' offer and want nothing to do with a trade with the team anymore. I'm not suggesting these two examples are true, but they are just two examples of the kinds of things that make deals go sour in all walks of life.


I agree that those are possibilities.

I also think that West is a good GM, and very much understand the business side of negotiations. I would be more worried about these types of things if it were Isiah or Brother Jim when he was GM.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Rhyder said:


> I agree that those are possibilities.
> 
> I also think that West is a good GM, and very much understand the business side of negotiations. I would be more worried about these types of things if it were Isiah or Brother Jim when he was GM.


West is retiring. Whatever CBA cap space headache he leaves to his successor probably doesn't bother him all that much. If he's interested in his legacy, he'd want to see the team kick butt next season so it looks like he left his successor in a good position.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

DaBullz said:


> West is retiring. Whatever CBA cap space headache he leaves to his successor probably doesn't bother him all that much. If he's interested in his legacy, he'd want to see the team kick butt next season so it looks like he left his successor in a good position.


If that's what he wants why is he offering Portland good players for an expiring contract?

If he want's Memphis to be as good as possible next season, he won't trade Gasol, and we have all been wasting our time thinking about this.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

McBulls said:


> If that's what he wants why is he offering Portland good players for an expiring contract?
> 
> If he want's Memphis to be as good as possible next season, he won't trade Gasol, and we have all been wasting our time thinking about this.


He has been saying that he's inclined to keep Gasol over taking these fire sale kind of offers. Right?


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

McBulls said:


> If that's what he wants why is he offering Portland good players for an expiring contract?
> 
> If he want's Memphis to be as good as possible next season, he won't trade Gasol, and we have all been wasting our time thinking about this.


Good players? Stromile Swift and Dahntay Jones are not good players.

What *is* interesting is that we have heard no rumors involving Memphis getting back players who have long-term contracts. No Jason Richardsons, no Lamar Odoms, no Eddy Currys, or whomever. We have heard Vince Carter (who would opt out), Magloire, and PJ Brown.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

If the Bulls were to send Deng and Noc, I don't see why we'd also have to give up Brown. In fact, that would probably force us to take another player or two back we may not necessarily want.

In the short-term, who pays the 3? Khyrapa, Thabo, Tyrus and Griffin? That'll be workable, probably, there's a lot of options there, and less will be needed with Gasol logging 35 minutes plus.

I feel much better about Brown as the 3rd big in the rotation at playoff time than Sweetney or Allen.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> *It seems you are concerned that West will back off from dealing Pau at the last minute. I'm sure he will give us equal opportunity to up the ante one final time if that is the case.*
> 
> Negotiations usually end in the middle. Paxson started his bid low and West started his offer high. West reduced his offer price, while Paxson has not yet had to change his bid. That's usually a good sign for the buyer.


Not really. I'm concerned that if Paxson looks at Gasol's value the same way many Bulls fans (mind-bogglingly in my opinion) are, then he'll be too scared to give up the requisite pieces to make it happen for fear of "losing the trade" or "overpaying". And then Gasol will be in Boston or Los Angeles instead of Chicago and our team won't be as good as it could have been.



> It's frustrating as a passionate fan to not know what is going on. *That doesn't mean Paxson should not do his due diligence and try and get the most for his money. West is trying to do the same.*


I completely agree with that. I'm not advocating he just rush right in. I'm simply advocating that when it really comes down to it, he better step up to the plate with a legit offer if that is what it takes.


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

rwj333 said:


> What *is* interesting is that we have heard no rumors involving Memphis getting back players who have long-term contracts. No Jason Richardsons, no Lamar Odoms, no Eddy Currys, or whomever. We have heard Vince Carter (who would opt out), Magloire, and PJ Brown.



really good point. my guess is the directive West has been given from higher up: as you are moving on, we want you to clear Gasol's contract for expiring ones, and get the best young talent you can.

I'm sure they want Deng, since he's soon to be expiring... but I find it hard to believe they wouldnt prize Tyrus more, considering their circumstances. He'll be relatively cheap for awhile, and he's shown he's more of a post player, so he's not really a replica of Rudy Gay.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> West is retiring. Whatever CBA cap space headache he leaves to his successor probably doesn't bother him all that much. If he's interested in his legacy, he'd want to see the team kick butt next season so it looks like he left his successor in a good position.


If West is disinterested in executing the wishes of the owners, I wouldn't think he would be around very long.

Just providing the counterpoint. :wordyo:


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

Rhyder said:


> If West is disinterested in executing the wishes of the owners, I wouldn't think he would be around very long.
> 
> Just providing the counterpoint. :wordyo:



yeah. whoever you were arguing against was actually pretending that the owners somehow dont have final say.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

> Adam (Earth): Marc, why would it take so much talent to pry Gasol loose from Memphis, considering AI, Vince, etc got sold for pennies on the dollar? Teams never get equal value when trading away stars
> 
> SportsNation Marc Stein: In those other situations you reference, there was an urgency to move the player. The Grizz don't have the same urgency. They're not trying to win now . . . that would only worsen their chances of landing a top-three pick.
> 
> SportsNation Marc Stein: The Sixers felt like they had to move out Iverson ASAP because his future hung over the team. There is so much uncertainty in Memphis besides Pau's future -- can Heisley find new buyers, is there any way Jerry West can be talked into staying for another year, etc. -- that the Gasol deal doesn't hang over them in the same way.


http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=14564

I'm not sure I really buy this at all (the franchise is in such disaray they have no incentive to resolve a mess?) but it's interesting nonetheless. It very well may be true but if I were West, I'd be espousing this sort of rhetoric either way. I do agree that in some ways it makes the most sense for all involved to see how the lottery shakes out. At the same time, Stein doesn't touch on any of the financial concerns cited in this thread.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Rhyder said:


> If West is disinterested in executing the wishes of the owners, I wouldn't think he would be around very long.
> 
> Just providing the counterpoint. :wordyo:


He's a lame duck. The owners may be satisfied to wait it out until he retires.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> He's a lame duck. The owners may be satisfied to wait it out until he retires.


In that case he's very likely not been given any marching orders to unload Gasol


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Not really. I'm concerned that if Paxson looks at Gasol's value the same way many Bulls fans (mind-bogglingly in my opinion) are, then he'll be too scared to give up the requisite pieces to make it happen for fear of "losing the trade" or "overpaying". And then Gasol will be in Boston or Los Angeles instead of Chicago and our team won't be as good as it could have been.
> 
> 
> 
> I completely agree with that. I'm not advocating he just rush right in. I'm simply advocating that when it really comes down to it, he better step up to the plate with a legit offer if that is what it takes.


Fair enough. I also responded before reading your other follow up post later in the thread.

I'm also relectant to trade Deng, and still think a deal could be worked out involving other pieces if the circumstance in Memphis is as we are all starting to suspect.

Noc, Tyrus, and 08 or later pick as principles is still my favorite deal for Gasol + Cardinal when considering my own perceived value & roster balance.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=14564
> 
> I'm not sure I really buy this at all (the franchise is in such disaray they have no incentive to resolve a mess?) but it's interesting nonetheless. It very well may be true but if I were West, I'd be espousing this sort of rhetoric either way. I do agree that in some ways it makes the most sense for all involved to see how the lottery shakes out. At the same time, Stein doesn't touch on any of the financial concerns cited in this thread.


Latrell Sprewell in GS was a mess. Rasheed Wallace in Portland was a mess. Allen Iverson in Philly was a mess.

Gasol expressed his desire to be traded. He's being shopped, but Memphis's ownership and GM have made it perfectly clear that keeping him is both a short- and long-term option. Gasol seems to be aware of this. He's moved forward and is playing basically the best basketball of his career.

Memphis moves Gasol only if they get back an attractive suite of young players, picks, and cap relieve. If Memphis doesn't move Gasol, they rebuild around him, Gay, Durant/Oden/Noah/Wright/whomever. They will significantly reduce their cap load simply by standing pat.

I applaud everyone's optimism, and I hope to get Gasol for as little as possible. But I think there's a very real chance Memphis keeps him for the summer (if not longer), and we've got a really narrow window to get a deal done.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> Latrell Sprewell in GS was a mess. Rasheed Wallace in Portland was a mess. Allen Iverson in Philly was a mess.
> 
> Gasol expressed his desire to be traded. He's being shopped, but Memphis's ownership and GM have made it perfectly clear that keeping him is both a short- and long-term option. Gasol seems to be aware of this. He's moved forward and is playing basically the best basketball of his career.
> 
> ...


Right. It's just that if Memphis doesn't claim that keeping Gasol is a long term option they would be idiots. West is nowhere near as stupid as Billy King and fortunately for the Grizzlies, this situation hasn't been quite as transparent as some of the other trade demands in recent years. What I keep coming back to is if Memphis is not concerned about refusing to accomodate the trade request then why shop him in the first place? Prior to the demand West was on Chad Ford's podcast scoffing at the idea that Gasol would be moved. The logic he and a number of analysts were employing at that time was "Why would you trade a 26 year old star player in the midst of a rebuilding effort? That's the exact type of player you want to build around." These discussions have never struck me as Memphis thinking "Well we might as well see what people are willing to give up. If we get a great offer then we both win." From the way it sounds, if that were the case, this would have been over immediately after it started since the Bulls offered nowhere near what West requested and no one else has made serious offers. Instead we hear about "a chess match" between West and Paxson. If there's no pressure to accomodate the trade request, I don't see how Pax has the leverage to be in any kind of standoff with West.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> These discussions have never struck me as Memphis thinking "Well we might as well see what people are willing to give up. If we get a great offer then we both win."


Why? This is completely the most plausible scenario, imo, and it certainly squares with how Gasol's been playing.

I think Gasol and Tellem went to West, and, given how quickly the wheels have fallen off the Grizzlies, the ownership situation, and the fact that the Grizz are well-positioned to land a star big man in the draft, West agreed to trade him, but -- just like he and Heisley have been saying publicly -- not in a firesale, pennies-on-the-dollar type trade. 

West probably told Gasol to keep his head down, play hard, and wait for something to happen. If nothing happens close to the deadline, he might not be accommodated until the summer.

Is this really far-fetched?


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> Why? This is completely the most plausible scenario, imo, and it certainly squares with how Gasol's been playing.
> 
> I think Gasol and Tellem went to West, and, given how quickly the wheels have fallen off the Grizzlies, the ownership situation, and the fact that the Grizz are well-positioned to land a star big man in the draft, West agreed to trade him, but -- just like he and Heisley have been saying publicly -- not in a firesale, pennies-on-the-dollar type trade.
> 
> ...


No, it's not far-fetched. But this cautious approach will cost Memphis some money (because next summer's expirings will have to be paid another year). It may cost them a good position in the lottery -- particularly if Gasol keeps his head down and plays hard for the rest of the year. And it will cost them an opportunity to deal with Chicago, since any reasonable senario will have to include Hinrich in the trade and no salary relief. Finally, West will not have the satisfaction of having made the trade, since he will have been replaced.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=14564
> 
> I'm not sure I really buy this at all (the franchise is in such disaray they have no incentive to resolve a mess?) but it's interesting nonetheless. It very well may be true but if I were West, I'd be espousing this sort of rhetoric either way. I do agree that in some ways it makes the most sense for all involved to see how the lottery shakes out. At the same time, Stein doesn't touch on any of the financial concerns cited in this thread.


Doesn't Eddie Jones $16M expiring deal mostly eliminate Memphis's financial problems?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

McBulls said:


> And it will cost them an opportunity to deal with Chicago, since any reasonable senario will have to include Hinrich in the trade and no salary relief.


I would think that Cardinal would come this way. So there is the salary relief right there.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> Why? This is completely the most plausible scenario, imo, and it certainly squares with how Gasol's been playing.
> 
> I think Gasol and Tellem went to West, and, given how quickly the wheels have fallen off the Grizzlies, the ownership situation, and the fact that the Grizz are well-positioned to land a star big man in the draft, West agreed to trade him, but -- just like he and Heisley have been saying publicly -- not in a firesale, pennies-on-the-dollar type trade.
> 
> ...


Not at all if we're just talking about the summer. I was responding more to your comment that Memphis is willing to keep him long-term which I interpret to mean indefinitely. 

My point was that at the beginning of the season West indicated that he considered Gasol the ideal building block for a rebuilding franchise and planned to keep him long term. Certainly he was willing to trade him if he received an offer he couldn't refuse (e.g. Dwight Howard) but knew this wouldn't happen so Gasol was considered to be more or less off the market. If West remained willing to keep Gasol long term and undaunted by the trade demand I can't see any reason Gasol's status would have changed. Gasol's availablility is obviously drastically different than it was a couple of months ago so that leads me to reason that West feels pressure to deal him in the short term (the off-season at the latest) and is uncomfortable keeping Gasol indefinitely.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

johnston797 said:


> Doesn't Eddie Jones $16M expiring deal mostly eliminate Memphis's financial problems?


That's certainly possible. I don't claim to have any insight into their financial situation. The strong point that some made in this threat was that Memphis would only have to pay the prorated salaries of players with expiring contracts for the rest of the season if a deal was made at the deadline (say $4 million if they get $10 million in expiring contracts) whereas if a deal was made during the offseason the expiring contracts would have to be paid in full next season (the entire $10 million). A noble owner wouldn't pressure the GM to accept a lesser deal just to save $6 million but some owners are pretty cheap. Certainly, if you're resolved to move Gasol by the end of the offseason and are not confident offers will improve in the offseason, it would be a good incentive to get a deal done by the deadline.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Doesn't Eddie Jones $16M expiring deal mostly eliminate Memphis's financial problems?


Not entirely, while his salary comes off the books there is a lot of others still increasing on them, Gasol's increases approx $1.5M alone.

Attendance figures (avg): according to ESPN figures
04/05: 16,862
05/06: 15,793
06/07: 14,973 

That'll amount to quite a lot over the course of the season, not to mention it'll carry over into the advertising and sponsorship revenue as well. They lost $18.5M last season alone (according to Forbes' data), now one can understand the pressing need to cut costs and easiest way to do that is cut the expenses.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Earlier today on Wiretap, it said that Boston is leaning toward offering Gerald Green and Al Jefferson for Gasol. If so, we won't win the trade without offering Luol.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

step said:


> Not entirely, while his salary comes off the books there is a lot of others still increasing on them, Gasol's increases approx $1.5M alone.
> 
> Attendance figures (avg): according to ESPN figures
> 04/05: 16,862
> ...


Still not buying it. There are other salaries that expire like Big Jake and Atkins (OT: who is playing good ball).

Getting rid of Gasol for junk to cut costs is like open heart surgury for a knee problem. Espceically if they retain Swift, Cardinal and Stoudamire on the roster.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

The Griz are on the hook for $44M next season. That's a few million below the salary cap. Assuming they get Deng back and a future pick they'd be at $34M plus whatever their draft pick costs them.

That's not getting junk and its coming fairly close to that target. Even closer if we take back Cardinal.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/index#

Listen to the PodCast, Marc Stein talked about how Jerry West is going to Europe to scout some guys for the draft. West seems like he is in no hurry to make a deal and would not make one for the sake of making one by the deadline.

He ideally wants to trade with Chicago, but who doesn't? Boston is second in terms of who can put together a good package. 

Also mentioned how Pierce does not want any more young players. 

My opinion, not what Marc said: It makes sense we would be the best trade partner, but I don't think West will deal unless he ends up with at least two key potential pieces (i.e. Deng and Thabo, etc) but Paxson knows that he won't create holes on this team, and the potential is there as your young guys are still extremely young.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Still not buying it. There are other salaries that expire like Big Jake and Atkins (OT: who is playing good ball).


Money is playing a big factor in this whether you like to believe it or not, which is something we can use to our advantage, not get away with murder like some others think we can. Even with Big Jake and Atkins coming off the books, they're probably be trying to scratch even, what then? The downward spiral will continue till the point there will be no support at all.


One thing that's starting to stick out like a sore thumb to me is how Gasol has stated that he wants out (and to a good team), but doesn't seem too fussed how long it takes. It just seems like too big of a coincidence considering that it's the same card that West is trying to use right now ("We don't need to trade him"). Either way Memphis is treading a thin line, the longer they wait the less value Gasol has.


> Espceically if they retain Swift, Cardinal and Stoudamire on the roster.


They have marginal value if any at all, hence the need to offload atleast one in the trade.


> Earlier today on Wiretap, it said that Boston is leaning toward offering Gerald Green and Al Jefferson for Gasol.


How long before he wants out there?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> The Griz are on the hook for $44M next season. That's a few million below the salary cap.


Agree. Hence, financial *crisis* solved, no?




MikeDC said:


> Assuming they get Deng back and a future pick they'd be at $34M plus whatever their draft pick costs them.
> 
> That's not getting junk and its coming fairly close to that target. Even closer if we take back Cardinal.


I don't disagree with any of this. Especially if we take Cardinal. But in general, any deal needs to make some sense on a skill/talent level. Especially if we don't take Cardinal. For example, Deng is going to get paid a lot of money over many years in 1 full season after this one. That's something any billionaire is going to grasp.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

step said:


> Not entirely, while his salary comes off the books there is a lot of others still increasing on them, Gasol's increases approx $1.5M alone.
> 
> Attendance figures (avg): according to ESPN figures
> 04/05: 16,862
> ...


The Grizz were $6 million over the luxury tax threshold last season. I think the Grizz financial woes are overblown especially with regards to the need to dump Pau for financial reasons.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> Agree. Hence, financial *crisis* solved, no?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes and no. Meaning it's still money in the bank for Heisley and a better balance sheet to show prospective ownership. It'll be their decision what to do down the road.

Plus a year could change a lot. If they add Durant or Oden, those attendance and revenue numbers could turn around very quickly.

I would think dropping to $44m would reduce the crisis, but if they've got a $16M loss and they are trying to shave $10m off what's projected next year, I'd guess $44M won't be enough. Otherwise why the $34M target?

You've also got to figure that, since Pau is getting booed, they're not not exactly considering him a revenue generating vehicle for next year if they keep him. Cost wise, if they can get a $10M savings, it's concrete. What will the effect on revenues be of trading him? If they keep him, he might continue to be unpopular and drive people away. If they trade him, they might be worse and drive people away. If they get one of the two big guys in the draft, keeping him probably helps. But keeping him makes it less likely they get one of those guys.

Heh... I guess that's all to say you can't really tell what the effect of trading him will be on revenues.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Yes and no. Meaning it's still money in the bank for Heisley and a better balance sheet to show prospective ownership. It'll be their decision what to do down the road.
> 
> Plus a year could change a lot. If they add Durant or Oden, those attendance and revenue numbers could turn around very quickly.
> 
> ...


Maybe one of the Memphis fans can weigh in, but the biggest negative factor towards their attendance has to be the ownership uncertainty, I'd wager. 

I mean, Gasol has done so much for the franchise the past six years. I simply can't imagine a season ticket holder, or even a walk-up buyer, not renewing/buying because of Gasol's presence on the team.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

BTW: Gasol with 30 (13/28 fg) pts, 13 boards, 5 assists, and 5 blocks in a competitive game (Memphis trailed by 5 going into the 4th) vs. one of the league's elite defensive units. Mike Miller (12 points on a robust 5/17 fgs) and Loren Roberts were the only other Grizz in double figures.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Scott May...dont you know you can get that from Melvin Ely. No sense giving up more than expirings and a future draft pick for that type of mediocre production, I mean we did lose.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Yes and no. Meaning it's still money in the bank for Heisley and a better balance sheet to show prospective ownership. It'll be their decision what to do down the road.
> 
> Plus a year could change a lot. If they add Durant or Oden, those attendance and revenue numbers could turn around very quickly.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with. Sure, getting Oden or Durrant will change any team's prospects. Seems like Pau would be a nice fit next to either of them. Any you suggesting that a deal doesn't have to make some sense on a skill/talent level?

Can you show me the link about the $34M target. Or at least explain the source?

And Pau got booed in the game after his trade request was made public. Is this on-going?


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> Maybe one of the Memphis fans can weigh in, but the biggest negative factor towards their attendance has to be the ownership uncertainty, I'd wager.
> 
> I mean, Gasol has done so much for the franchise the past six years. I simply can't imagine a season ticket holder, or even a walk-up buyer, not renewing/buying because of Gasol's presence on the team.


Pau is actually well liked by the casual fan. He is recognized as our best player. Howeve,r he does not draw crowds and the team has not had enough success to draw crowds regardless of situation (like the Bulls). Also, season ticket renewals hit the floor once Fratello and SlowBall were retained. Fratello was hated by almost all fans. So with season ticket sales down, even his midseason firing could not get people to run out and see a bad team.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

Since we have Memphis Fans checking in on this thread what about this three way. 

Chicago sends PJ Brown, Ben Gordon and Tyrus Thomas to the Grizz

The Grizz send Gasol to the Bulls and Dahtay Jones and Cardinal to the Clips

and the Clips send Maggette to the Bulls.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

> I'd like to hear your comments on the possibility that the Grizzlies will push for the Bulls to trade Hinrich so that they can entice either Gordon or Deng (or both) away from the Bulls in free agency with the $11 million in cap space that the Bulls would provide in any trade to the Grizz for Pau Gasol. --Daniel, Lake Forest, Ill.
> 
> That's crafty. *The word is they want Deng or Hinrich, though I'm not sure the Bulls will give up either*, which is why this doesn't seem to be getting anywhere. Gordon and Deng would have to play two more seasons with the Bulls without long term contracts to become unrestricted free agents and leave. No one does that these days with injury chances. They'll sign or the Bulls will trade someone to open up money to sign the rest.


 -- from sam smith's column

I don't know about ya'll, but I'd MUCH rather give up Kirk Hinrich over Deng...

Gasol, Gordon & Deng could be a dominating trio for years...plus add TT to that mix? ridiculous

We could go after a PG with the MLE or have Gordon, Sefo & Duhon all play a part


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

The ROY said:


> -- from sam smith's column
> 
> I don't know about ya'll, but I'd MUCH rather give up Kirk Hinrich over Deng...
> 
> ...


The Grizz want Deng and Gordon. They want no part in paying Kirk Hinrich $11 million next year.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

We will get Gasol cheap, otherwise no trade will go down. Its funny how West would go for less value with other teams, but the fact that he knows we got more, he will want us to overpay. It won't happen.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

man... just make up your mind Pax. Deal or No Deal. Tired of all these speculations.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

The ROY said:


> -- from sam smith's column
> 
> I don't know about ya'll, but I'd MUCH rather give up Kirk Hinrich over Deng...


Roy, how about a link?


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> Earlier today on Wiretap, it said that Boston is leaning toward offering Gerald Green and Al Jefferson for Gasol. If so, we won't win the trade without offering Luol.


how many expiring contracts do they have to add? We have plenty. And are they contenders now?


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

truebluefan said:


> how many expiring contracts do they have to add? We have plenty. And are they contenders now?


It depends. I know they are not contenders, but it all comes down to how much of a role Gasol has in saying No. He prolly can deny his destination if the team is not a contender.

Regarding Boston, it depends. I believe losing Eddie Jones will put them under the cap next year (I could be wrong), and if so, they won't have to pay luxury tax, and I have read that Ratliff's salary is paid by insurance. If that is the case, then the Grizzlies are just putting off their big FA spending for another year.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

TBF, they've got Theo Ratliff, who, while not expiring, I've read has 80% of his contract paid by insurance due to injury. That works out about the same as having PJ Brown.

I've also read Gasol doesn't want to go there, but if they get back Pierce they'd have a puncher's chance.


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## Slip84 (Jan 17, 2007)

i think u may find this interesting:


Pau Gasol: Five More Rejections Tuesday Night 

RotoWire.com Staff - RotoWire.com
Tuesday, February 6, 2007
Update: Gasol had another big game Tuesday, scoring 30 points with 13 rebounds, five assists and five blocks in the Grizzlies’ loss. 

Recommendation: Over the last five games, Gasol is averaging 26.2 points, 11.4 rebounds and 4.8 blocks. There isn’t a more valuable center in fantasy basketball. 

Why is it that outsiders see it but many Grizz fans can't? Pau is playing like a stud right now. Granted, I am not super-objective on the subject but the man is playing hard and last night he was banging with Mutumbo. I got some last minute tickets from a local radio station in my area and they were the best seats I have had since the team's first two season in the Pyramid. They were right behind the Pat's kicker next to the Houston bench. Pau was as physical with Houston as they were with him. He didn't back down from Mutumbo and in fact I think you could have called an offensive or defensive foul every time Pau had the ball in the post. He was making contact with Deke and driving him back in the post for short shots an lay ins. Yes, he took some jumpers but his shot is much improved this year and goes in an above average amount of times for a player his size. He had a little time to work on his shot if you will recall and the time he put in has shown.

I was glad to not hear any boos last night. Those that are convinced he is a bum just won't change their opinion but if you are actually a fan and actually paying attention you will see that your arguments are flawed with criticizing his play. Last night he would have had a triple double if guys were hitting their shots. It was just an off night for our shooters. That happens occasionally. We all have off days at our jobs too. I am hoping that the deadline passes with Pau still in uniform and I additionally hope that an ownership change gives Pau and all of us a better feeling about the behind the scenes operations of the team.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Does anyone know when/if Jerry is back from his scouting trip to Europe? I'm almost sure he wouldn't execute a huge trade while out of the country.


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## Bulldozer (Jul 11, 2006)

Grizzlies owner getting a lil feisty?!?

*Heisley wants fair value for Gasol
*


> *Grizzlies majority owner Michael Heisley called "ridiculous" a recent report and/or any notion that the organization won't seek fair value for Pau Gasol in order to slice payroll.
> 
> Heisley reacted Tuesday to last weekend's Los Angeles Times article that suggested Heisley told team president Jerry West to lower his asking price for the 7-foot Spaniard.
> 
> ...


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Bulldozer said:


> Grizzlies owner getting a lil feisty?!?
> 
> *Heisley wants fair value for Gasol
> *


This confirms what my read on things has been all along. The Grizz promised to try and trade Gasol, with the understanding that it would have to be a good fit for the team, and with the understanding that a trade might not end up happening. 

No fire sale. Sweetney + P.J. + a top-25 protected 2012 first-round pick isn't going to get it done. If Pax wants Gasol, and for the life of me I can't figure out why he wouldn't, he is going to have to part with some quality assets.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> This confirms what my read on things has been all along. The Grizz promised to try and trade Gasol, with the understanding that it would have to be a good fit for the team, and with the understanding that a trade might not end up happening.
> 
> No fire sale. Sweetney + P.J. + a top-25 protected 2012 first-round pick isn't going to get it done. If Pax wants Gasol, and for the life of me I can't figure out why he wouldn't, he is going to have to part with some quality assets.


co-sign.


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## Bulldozer (Jul 11, 2006)

ScottMay said:


> This confirms what my read on things has been all along. The Grizz promised to try and trade Gasol, with the understanding that it would have to be a good fit for the team, and with the understanding that a trade might not end up happening.
> 
> No fire sale. Sweetney + P.J. + a top-25 protected 2012 first-round pick isn't going to get it done. If Pax wants Gasol, and for the life of me I can't figure out why he wouldn't, he is going to have to part with some quality assets.


Well, what if he felt the need to say something? Basketball is still a business, and maybe he wants to get the Grizz some leverage back for potential deals. Let's face it, we as fans can only guesstimate what "fair value" is, or what teams would be satisfied with in a trade. For arguments sake, lets talk about what the Bulls did in the Elton Brand trade. Now I know Elton is not a 7 footer, but if you compare his stats (what matters most IMO) with Gasol's, they are virtually identical. In fact Elton was a solid 20 and 10 guy, and what did we get for him? __________________

I don't think its completely out of this world, to think the Bulls can land Gasol for Tyrus Thomas (a very high draft pick, 4th overall), the NYK pick (sure shot top 10), an expiring PJ Brown contract, and if that's not enough, an expiring (relatively young) Nocioni deal, to which they would have the inside track of resigning if they wish to do so. Heck, some would scoff and say even that's not enough! I would then say, for the Bulls to take on one of their bad contract guys, namely one of their bigs. Yet and still, some would say that's still not enough. Why is that? So what is it...did we get ripped off in the Brand deal, or am I comparing apples and oranges? If I am, their equality in production is sure confusing the heck out of me because I can't tell who's "worth" what. I will maintain, the Bulls don't necessarily have to give up Deng, Hinrich or Gordon.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

I guess I'm in a good mood. I'm in Hawaii for the next three weeks 

The price of Gasol here is $3.17 a gallon!


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> I guess I'm in a good mood. I'm in Hawaii for the next three weeks
> 
> The price of Gasol here is $3.17 a gallon!


This one's even worse! (well, better)


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

King Joseus said:


> This one's even worse! (well, better)












Would you believe...

That people are paying more for a cup of coffee at Starbucks than for a gallon of gasol?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Would you believe...
> 
> That people are paying more for a cup of coffee at Starbucks than for a gallon of gasol?


I believe it, but according to Consumer Reports, they'd be better off with a cheap cup from Mickey-D's.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0702030176feb03,0,3539789.story?coll=chi-business-hed



> McDonald's Corp.'s coffee tastes better and costs less than brew from Starbucks Corp., Burger King Holdings Inc. and Dunkin' Donuts, Consumer Reports magazine said.
> 
> "We compared the rivals with Starbucks, all in basic black--no flavors, milk, or sugar--and you know what? McDonald's beat the rest," Consumer Reports said in its March issue.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> The Grizz want Deng and Gordon. They want no part in paying Kirk Hinrich $11 million next year.


Source?

I don't think anyone - West included - thinks Memphis has even a remote chance of landing two borderline All-Stars in their low to mid twenties for Gasol. The best case scenario for the Grizzlies at this point would seem to be one (Jefferson, Hinrich, Deng, Gordon) and one other solid asset (Thabo, Green, Thomas, protected draft pick, etc.).

If there is a better offer that will eventually emerge, I'd be curious to know what it might be. If Memphis is truly comfortable holding onto Pau for the long term - which is highly unlikely in my opinion - and wants a deal along the lines of Deng and Gordon I can assure you Pau will finish out his contract in Memphis.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

It seems pointless to start additional Gasol threads at this point, so I'll just tack this onto the back of this thread. From Chad Ford's most recent chat:



> KC, Los Angeles: Are the bulls waiting to see if KG would be available before settling for Gasol? Is that a smart move?
> 
> SportsNation Chad Ford: NO .... I think the consensus around the league is that KG isn't going anywhere. The Wolves are respectable enough that they'll keep trying to bail out the ship with KG at the helm. I think what's happening with Gasol is that the Bulls are waiting until we get closer to the deadline to put their best offer forward for Gasol. They don't want Jerry West shopping or leaking their offer around the league. I think they'll make one more push for him around Feb 20th and then we'll see if it's enough. I remain in the camp that says West will only pull the trigger if it's a good deal for Memphis ... but owner Michael Heisley may force his hand.





> Robbie (Chicago): So Chad if you where Paxson, what would be your final offer to the Grizz for Gasol?
> 
> SportsNation Chad Ford: Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas and P. J. Brown. That gives West two young lottery picks and more cap relief. I wouldn't include Luol Deng in a trade. If the Grizz wanted the lottery pick of the Knicks instead of Thomas, I do that as long as it was Top 2 protected.


http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=14571

I found it interesting that a lot of the key issues he mentioned have been discussed here (Heisley's impact on a deal, the Bulls waiting to increase their offer). I assume that since it is last offer before the deadline, Chad's offer is the most he would give up for Gasol if he were the Bulls. That's a bit more than the most I would offer - I wouldn't be willing to package more than a future first rounder or maybe Thabo with Deng or Gordon and P.J.'s contract - but maybe that makes sense since you tend to value your own players more than outsiders.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

ScottMay is on point.

Pau Gasol is the 2nd or 3rd best center in the league depending upon what you call Duncan. He is not far off from Yao Ming. The notion that Memphis is going from being top 10 in payroll for the last 2-3 years to dumping All Star 7 footers for capspace and prospects, especially since they are under the cap this offseason, is wishful thinking.

The Grizz still do not want to trade him.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> The Grizz still do not want to trade him.


Then I don't see why West would trade him for more than 10 guys in the entire league. If West doesn't feel like his hand is being forced by Pau or Heisley, he's a complete idiot to ever start shopping Gasol in the first place.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

> "I haven't heard of anybody making an offer we'd have interest in," Heisley said, adding that West will ultimately make a decision on any potential Gasol deal. "I'm not the guy making the trade. But I know we're not going to trade Pau Gasol just to reduce the payroll. *That's not a major part of this equation.* We've got to get something great in return for him."



I understand that's what is known in the journalism trade as a non-denial denial.
Salary savings IS part of the equation.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> This confirms what my read on things has been all along. The Grizz promised to try and trade Gasol, with the understanding that it would have to be a good fit for the team, and with the understanding that a trade might not end up happening.
> 
> No fire sale. Sweetney + P.J. + a top-25 protected 2012 first-round pick isn't going to get it done. If Pax wants Gasol, and for the life of me I can't figure out why he wouldn't, he is going to have to part with some quality assets.


Quoted for truth. Let's get realistic people.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Just an FYI: Pax was on Mac, Jurko, and Harry earlier today. They just replayed the interview. I only caught the end of it, but that's when he started talking about potential trades. He said that in viewing our road trip, he still believes we need a guy to throw it in to in the post. It really sounded like he is strongly considering this deal because he stated that although he really likes the core, he will do what it takes to improve this team. 

Go get your man, Pax. Go get Gasol. Do what you have to do.

edit: Thinking about what Paxson said in the interview, he also mentioned how we've been throwing the ball all over the place on this road trip. Could that be a reference to the fact that he's willing to trade Ben Gordon?


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

I think it will be what was stated above, TT, PJ and Gordon for Gasol. I think West will really push for Hinrich though as his natural style at point guard is to push it up the court quickly (whether it be wise to or not) which should fit in with Gay, Swift and TT.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

interesting read on what the owner of memphis said. Of course he says that now. Geees. Its early yet. Two more weeks of postiering. 

I have said it before, I believe Gasol will be a bull. Paxson will not overpay, but either deng or gordon will be in the package. I want gordon to stay because of the inside out side threat, but the way Gasol passes we can do well by keeping deng. 

now the hard part, the wait.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> Quoted for truth. Let's get realistic people.


I think it's obvious to 90% of people that the proposals comprised of Tyrus or the draft pick and a bunch of crap are completely meritless. It may have gotten to the point where those types of posts simply need to be ignored.

That said, I'm still of the opinion that the Bulls only need to offer a deal better than whatever the second best offer is at the trade deadline or in the offseason. If it's not a firesale and they're not keeping him then I'm completely befuddled. I've never understood this supposed grey area between the two. It's virtually impossible to get full value for a player of Gasol's calliber so if you're willing to keep him you keep him and if not you're not going to keep a disgruntled player with a tenuous stay on a losing team for two or three seasons waiting for the right offer, especially at the price of $15 million per season. There's no reason to bid against yourself. 

If Pax wants to up his offer a little bit to try to get a deal done as soon as possible that's one thing but it will come at a cost since you're then probably locked into that price and likely more to get a deal done. I think it would be poor negotiating though if Pax continues to up his offer with no other attractive offers on the table just because West tells him that's what it'll take to get a deal done. You have to call people's bluff sometimes, especially when you have a great hand (sorry for the extended metaphor).


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

Taken from RealGM, I can't post a link to the full article because I'm too lazy to register. Anyways, the proposal is coming from a Memphis point of view. Since it involves us sending out 3 players, we will most likely take back 2 (Gasol and ?).



> *Bulls' Recent Struggles Improve Chances At Gasol Deal?*
> 
> 11th February, 2007 - 4:33 am
> Memphis Commercial Appeal -
> ...


Would you do this...

PJ + Deng + Nocioni for Gasol + Warrick ?

I would probably still do it. No mention of draft picks so we still keep the Knicks pick. 

C: Wallace, Allen, Marty
PF: Gasol, Tyrus, Sweets
SF: Warrick, Viktor
SG: Gordon, Thabo, Griffin
PG: Hinrich, Duhon, Barrett

We probably fill the 15th roster spot with Luke, A.D or Kukoc. 

SF wouldn't be _that_ depleted considering we'd receive Hakim Warrick (whom I like a lot), Tyrus & Thabo could probably both play a bit of SF, Viktor started 50+ games a year ago in Portland and Griffin started for Dallas and could also play some 3. 

We also keep New York's pick and have the MLE/LLE. Hell, if Memphis really intends to cut costs bad enough we might be able to steal Nocioni back as a free agent. I doubt it, but you never know.


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## Salvaged Ship (Jul 10, 2002)

I don't believe that deal. We need to keep one small forward. Why would Memphis want 2?? I just don't see Noc and Deng together working for either side.

Deng, Brown, Thomas, pick. You give Memphis a new starting front line, a good draft pick, an expiring contract. We have Noc, Gasol, and Wallace front line. Looks like a win/win. You need to give something good to get something. Deng is playing well (which may help this trade go through), but I also like Nocioni's game and think the combo of Noc/Gasol looks good.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

SALO said:


> Would you do this...
> 
> PJ + Deng + Nocioni for Gasol + Warrick ?


Hmm. I'm surprised to find that I'm more comfortable moving Noc than Tyrus or the NY pick. I suppose it's just because I have a pretty good grip on Noc as a player whereas I'm not sure how good Tyrus will be or who we could draft with the NY pick. I suppose that type of uncertainty just makes me nervous. I'm not necessarily saying I'd trade Noc before I'd trade Tyrus of the pick.

I was all ready to reiterate my stance that the Bulls shouldn't include any major asset along with Deng or Gordon and then claim that this would leave us with a gaping hole at SF and then I looked at Warrick's numbers for the first time. He's really good. That makes me think West wouldn't agree to throw him into the deal but if he did I might actually bite on this.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Salvaged Ship said:


> I don't believe that deal. We need to keep one small forward. Why would Memphis want 2?? I just don't see Noc and Deng together working for either side.
> 
> Deng, Brown, Thomas, pick.


I definitely value the pick and TT combined way more than Noc.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

I'd rather have Thomas + pick over Nocioni. 

Noch can hit the 3 so I agree he'd fit great next to Gasol. But if Deng + Nocioni is what _Memphis_ is pushing for (agree it doesn't make much sense, but it's a Memphis paper reporting it) then I'd do it. 

We keep Gordon/Tyrus/Thabo/Knicks pick. Warrick is a good player too. Don't overlook the kid. He's better than Tyrus/Thabo as of right now. He makes it easier for me to include Deng & Noch, even though I don't really want to.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> Hmm. I'm surprised to find that I'm more comfortable moving Noc than Tyrus or the NY pick. I suppose it's just because I have a pretty good grip on Noc as a player whereas I'm not sure how good Tyrus will be or who we could draft with the NY pick. I suppose that type of uncertainty just makes me nervous. I'm not necessarily saying I'd trade Noc before I'd trade Tyrus of the pick.
> 
> I was all ready to reiterate my stance that the Bulls shouldn't include any major asset along with Deng or Gordon and then claim that this would leave us with a gaping hole at SF and then I looked at Warrick's numbers for the first time. He's really good. That makes me think West wouldn't agree to throw him into the deal but if he did I might actually bite on this.


We're pretty much in agreement on this one. I love Nocioni but if he's the deal-breaker for Memphis then I'd go ahead and 'give in' as long as we get a SF back from them (Warrick).

Warrick has put up good numbers and is athletic as hell. Four years in college too. His name has actually been thrown around in more than one trade proposal between the two teams. Memphis will have to send out _somebody_ along with Gasol, and if West has his eyes on both Deng & Nocioni then Warrick seems like the logical choice to be sent out. No way they send us Miller or Gay. No way Pax accepts Swift or Cardinal. Dahntay Jones is more of a SG. Warrick is the best fit considering we're losing two SF's and Memphis would be adding two.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

> Memphis Commercial Appeal -
> 
> A deal sure to send Gasol packing would include P.J. Brown, Luol Deng and Andres Nocioni.


This is a bad deal for both sides, so whoever wrote this probably go not help from insiders on either team.


Memphis doesn't need both Deng and Nocioni (an expensive free agent this summer) and NO draft pick. They do need a guard (e.g. Sefolosha). 

As many have pointed out, they have no need for TT either.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Salvaged Ship said:


> I don't believe that deal. We need to keep one small forward. Why would Memphis want 2?? I just don't see Noc and Deng together working for either side.
> 
> Deng, Brown, Thomas, pick. You give Memphis a new starting front line, a good draft pick, an expiring contract. We have Noc, Gasol, and Wallace front line. Looks like a win/win. You need to give something good to get something. Deng is playing well (which may help this trade go through), but I also like Nocioni's game and think the combo of Noc/Gasol looks good.


WHY give them all that when it looks as if they aren't ASKING?

I'd rather keep Thomas AND the pick over Noc...

that pick can bring us a NEW big to possibly replace Ben Wallace if we can get him moved OR can bring us a true SF like Julian Wright or Corey Brewer...

I'd trade Deng, Nocioni & Brown for Gasol in a heartbeat...


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

McBulls said:


> This is a bad deal for both sides, so whoever wrote this probably go not help from insiders on either team.
> 
> 
> Memphis doesn't need both Deng and Nocioni (an expensive free agent this summer) and NO draft pick. They do need a guard (e.g. Sefolosha).
> ...


Looks to me that they're looking to collect assets, rather than build a team NOW

Deng would most certainly be their SF of the future since Gay is looking very strong at the SG...they also have Warrick @ PF & Lowry @ the PG spot for the future....with their pick, which I'm sure will be top 3, they'll be able to add the big man they need.

C Oden
F Warrick
F Deng
G Gay
G Lowry

= :worthy:


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

BTW

I cannot WAIT for this deal to go down. I'm glad we built they team like we have but it was pretty obvious that sooner or LATER we would of had to make a trade to become legit.

Gasol SHOULD be a Bull within the next 12 days.

I'm looking forward to Khyrapa playing more SF and always felt that he'd be a good replacement if Nocioni DID leave.

It's also helps that Hinrich is playing incredibly well averaging 21 points and short of 7 assists on the road trip.

G Hinrich / Duhon
G Gordon / Sefolosha
F Khyrapa / Thomas
F Gasol / Sweetney
C Wallace


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

McBulls said:


> This is a bad deal for both sides, so whoever wrote this probably go not help from insiders on either team.
> 
> 
> Memphis doesn't need both Deng and Nocioni (an expensive free agent this summer) and NO draft pick. They do need a guard (e.g. Sefolosha).
> ...


I don't know that I agree. Without Gasol, they'd have a gaping hole at the 4. So basically they'd be playing Deng and Noc exactly like they will play here. Noc has played almost all of his minutes at the 4 here this season. Thabo, to me, looks sort of like a poor-man's Rudy Gay, so he might duplicate things for them.

You can pretty much guarantee that Miller, Deng and Noc would each get 35 mins or so, and that Gay will get 20+ as much as he can handle

1- Atkins 24, Stoudemire 24
2- Gay 13, Miller 35
3- Deng 35, Gay 13
4- Nocioni 35, Cardinal? 13
5- Swift, Tonsilitis? .... yuck

----------

For us, the 07 draft really is deepest at the 3 spot. There are a lot of potentially good ones, and they're being pushed down the list because the presence of Oden, Durant and a couple of other big guys at the top. 

In the short run, if we're not giving up Gordon or Kirk and we're getting Gasol, we've got several guys we can throw at the 3 spot and hope they stick - Khyrapa, Griffin, Thabo, Tyrus.

I also think if both Deng and Noc go, the smart thing would be to hold onto Brown. That deal can be done (Deng, Noc, Allen, Sweetney for Gasol, Kinsey, Warrick works under the CBA) and I'd much prefer having Brown than Allen and Sweetney come playoff time. Of course, I don't expect that to happen because I think the Bulls probably would rather worse their chances and wipe off some of the Chandler for Brown trade egg on their face by trading him.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Bummer. Many of our assets could be valued lower than fair or expected at the start of the season value right now.

Nocioni is on the IL.
TT is in the press and getting fined by Paxson for jib issues.

The Knicks don't look like they are going to be a terrible team. (this one can't be in the deal)

Dealing Nocioni and Deng for Gasol is quite a move. Its going to be hard for us to win this season after making that deal, IMO. I am nervous about Nocioni long term though, given the tremendous beating the man takes on a nightly basis.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Marc Stein's weekend dime says that the Bulls are West's preferred trading partner, but that there is no urgency at all on the Grizzlies' part, and all signs right now point to Gasol staying put for the rest of the season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime_070210-11


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

If we put this deal on the table, i dont know how Memphis could turn it down:

TT/Thabo/Nocioni/draft pick and contracts

I only say this because the alternative appears to be keeping Gasol, letting him risk injury for another half year. havent heard about any other deals that would beat this one.



gives them help for now, later, finances. weakens our bench but establishes our 5.




people who say Memphis has no use for TT....teams can always use another big. especially one that has shown a knack for rebounding and shotblocking.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

The ROY said:


> I'd trade Deng, Nocioni & Brown for Gasol in a heartbeat...


Me too. This is one of many, many permutations of a Gasol trade that I'd firmly back. 

I want something done in the next 12 days.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> Marc Stein's weekend dime says that the Bulls are West's preferred trading partner, but that there is no urgency at all on the Grizzlies' part, and all signs right now point to Gasol staying put for the rest of the season.
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime_070210-11


West is leaving..

Ownership wants to cut salary and rebuild..

Gasol is getting moved...and before the deadline


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

> Memphis Commercial Appeal -
> The Bulls recent struggles on their Western Conference roadtrip may improve the chances of the team pulling the trigger on a deal for Memphis forward Pau Gasol, the Memphis Commercial Appeal is reporting.
> 
> Paxson's concerns about the Bulls' ability to contend in the Eastern Conference appear to be growing. The Bulls are 2-4 (including losses at Sacramento and Golden State) on the trip heading into a game today at Phoenix.
> ...


That'd be weird, giving away both forwards.

But if Tyrus is indeed the small forward of the future (and not a powerforward), this might show Paxson believes in Tyrus. Of course, this, imo, means Thabo can also become a contributor, and get heavy minutes at the small forward position.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Ron Cey said:


> Me too. This is one of many, many permutations of a Gasol trade that I'd firmly back.
> 
> I want something done in the next 12 days.


You and me both my friend...

I'm sure it will happen unless Boston beats us out..but I don't see Ainge making the deal unless Pierce forces his hand...he really wants a shot @ Oden/Durant


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> For us, the 07 draft really is deepest at the 3 spot.


There are also some potential FA's that would be very appealing, doubtful the MLE would net any but it's a possibility.


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## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! (Jun 10, 2003)

So, if the new deal is us giving away both Luol and Andres, who the hell starts for us at the 3??? Tyrus? Victor??? Yuck.!


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

What is Paxson pulled off a 2nd consolidation trade after the Gasol one.

So we'd be sitting there with Hinrich, Gordon, Wallace, and Gasol as our main components.

That leaves us with Thomas, Duhon, Thabo, Sweetney, and the pick as far as assets go.

Bulls Trade:

Luol Deng
Andres Nocioni
PJ Brown

Bulls Receive:

Pau Gasol
Hakim Warrick

Bulls Trade:

Tyrus Thomas
Thabo Sefolosha
Chris Duhon
Michael Sweetney
2007 Unprotected Pick

Bulls Receive:

Paul Pierce
Michael Olowakandi
Leon Powe
Allan Ray

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/featur...7~996~2794&teams=29~29~2~29~2~2~2~4~4~4~4~4~4

PG-Kirk Hinrich/Andre Barrett
SG-Ben Gordon/Adrian Griffin
SF-Paul Pierce/Hakim Warrick
PF-Pau Gasol/Viktar Khryapa
C- Ben Wallace/Malik Allen


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

Mebarak said:


> PG-Kirk Hinrich/Andre Barrett
> SG-Ben Gordon/Adrian Griffin
> SF-Paul Pierce/Hakim Warrick
> PF-Pau Gasol/Viktar Khryapa
> C- Ben Wallace/Malik Allen



What if, indeed. Do you also dream of the Beatles reuniting, original lineup?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Looks like Kidd could be had.

http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/44660/20070211/lakers_and_cavaliers_interested_in_kidd/

Hinrich / Nocioni the primaries to Memphis.
Brown / Picks the primaries to the Nets.

Kidd
Gordon
Deng
Gasol
Wallace

collect ring.

If the Cavs get him... ruh-roh.

EDIT: (oh wait, he hates our coach. too bad.  )


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> EDIT: (oh wait, he hates our coach. too bad.  )



its ok, problem solved. lets just swing a three way trade and get Maurice Cheeks in here.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Talk of trading away the entire roster except for Hinrich and Gordon to land an aging veteran like Pierce or Kidd is just insanity to me. Do people really dislike this team that much? Are people really that impatient? Do people really think we'd have even a 40/60 chance against Dallas or Phoenix immediately after rebuilding the entire roster?


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## Bulldozer (Jul 11, 2006)

JeremyB0001 said:


> Talk of trading away the entire roster except for Hinrich and Gordon to land an aging veteran like Pierce or Kidd is just insanity to me.


Kidd aging yes, but Paul Pierce is right in his prime and I believe can still play this game for at least another 4 years at a top level.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

I don't get the Deng+Nocioni thing, the Grizz seem to have a lot of SFs, but who knows? Maybe they become the ones who will need to make a "consolidation trade."

If that's what the Grizz really wants for Gasol, I suppose I'd do it, but I don't see Thomas playing significant minutes at SF this season...or ever...no shot/no handle. Khyrapa? He'd fill the defensive role OK, but he'd have to step up big-time offensively...something he's never really done. Griff could give us some minutes, but not big ones.

Gasol's worth it, but it leaves us with a hole.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Dealing Nocioni and Deng for Gasol is quite a move. Its going to be hard for us to win this season after making that deal, IMO. *I am nervous about Nocioni long term though, given the tremendous beating the man takes on a nightly basis.*


Same here. In his three years with us it seems like he's been losing a bit of speed/athleticism each year... and he's only 27. He's wearing a huge wrap around his arm. Many of his injuries don't even get reported. I only learned about his recent foot injury because it finally forced him to miss some games. 

Maybe he sits out for Argentina this summer until he gets his new contract, but we know every year after that he'll play for Argentina and go all-out and get banged up even more. I'm not so worried about Gasol playing in the summer because his style of play is completely different than Nocioni's. Noch plays like a bull in a china-shop every time he steps onto the court. Gasol is more finesse. 

I'd love to keep Noch around, especially for the playoffs where he really picks things up, but if Memphis were to tell us that PJ + Deng + Nocioni gets a Gasol trade done right now, I'd give them what they want. Just as long as we get Warrick coming back our way.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Just as long as we get Warrick coming back our way.


If we're giving up that Gay better be included.

Don't mind Warrick that much, but to me there isn't much of a point when we have Tyrus.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Bulldozer said:


> Kidd aging yes, but Paul Pierce is right in his prime and I believe can still play this game for at least another 4 years at a top level.


If good players can continue to play at a high level until the age of 33 that means we're giving up 12 seasons of probably 20/7 if we trade Luol. Think about that for a minute.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

I'm still not getting why Jerry's not jumping on that Boston deal for Jefferson & Green. Is it because the closest thing they have to an expiring deal is Ratliff? If I were West, I would of already made that deal or found a 3rd party with an expiring contract like Orlando, to make it work.

G Lowry
G Gay
F Green
F Warick
C Jefferson (just this season)

they'd lose alot cause of their youth but they'd have a sick future.

I honestly believe Ainge doesn't wanna ruin his chances in the lotto though. BUT, if they wind up with Gasol, I'll be highly pissed.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

The ROY said:


> I'm still not getting why Jerry's not jumping on that Boston deal for Jefferson & Green. Is it because the closest thing they have to an expiring deal is Ratliff? If I were West, I would of already made that deal or found a 3rd party with an expiring contract like Orlando, to make it work.
> 
> G Lowry
> G Gay
> ...


Maybe because those two aren't that good?

I know I'd want Luol Deng, PJ Brown, and whoever over those two.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

The ROY said:


> I'm still not getting why Jerry's not jumping on that Boston deal for Jefferson & Green. Is it because the closest thing they have to an expiring deal is Ratliff? If I were West, I would of already made that deal or found a 3rd party with an expiring contract like Orlando, to make it work.
> 
> G Lowry
> G Gay
> ...


Why believe that every reported offer is actually true?


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Mebarak said:


> Maybe because those two aren't that good?
> 
> I know I'd want Luol Deng, PJ Brown, and whoever over those two.


Luol, that's about it.

Jefferson's putting up 14, 10 & 2 blks per game. He'll only get BETTER.

Gerald Green isn't that good huh? He'll be the next T-Mac and has already shown flashes of it.

If their building for the future, that would be a GREAT start.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

The ROY said:


> I'm still not getting why Jerry's not jumping on that Boston deal for Jefferson & Green. Is it because the closest thing they have to an expiring deal is Ratliff? If I were West, I would of already made that deal or found a 3rd party with an expiring contract like Orlando, to make it work.
> 
> G Lowry
> G Gay
> ...


Two things. One is that I believe Jerry is not jumping on any deal because he's not back in this country until at least tomorrow. I doubt he would finalize a deal from abroad, though I wouldn't be surprised if he's kept up with some of the potential trade partners.

Also, I don't know if you can build your team around five extremely young players like that. The Bulls did a pretty good job doing just that a few years back, but it usually doesn't work. Part of the reason it worked for us is that we had some players who played some very mature ball in college: Deng, Gordon, and Hinrich. I would say the only players who fits that bill are Lowry and Warrick. Green and Jefferson are real talents, but we're seeing what they're capable of right now in Boston without a real veteran presence, and it's embarrassing, at least with regards to wins. Frankly, I think Philly has got a better model for a young team. They have a bunch of young players and a veteran point guard in Miller. I think adding Hinrich to a young core like that could help them to win more games, but then again, I'm sure they want the best chance at Odom or Durant, so winning is not the desire this year.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

The ROY said:


> Luol, that's about it.
> 
> Jefferson's putting up 14, 10 & 2 blks per game. He'll only get BETTER.
> 
> ...


If they have a great young big, and the next T-Mac, why would they be trading them for a talent like Gasol?

How come they haven't won in like 18 games?


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Mebarak said:


> If they have a great young big, and the next T-Mac, why would they be trading them for a talent like Gasol?
> 
> How come they haven't won in like 18 games?


First of all, I never said Jefferson was great, but anybody can be traded, and not everyone is patient enough to wait on players to develop. ESPECIALLY someone like Paul Pierce.

And they aren't winning because their YOUNG. How many games do you really think Ryan Gomes, Rajon Rondo, Telfair, Green, Jefferson, West and Tony Allen will win you? They have talent but they don't know how to win. You've been watching the NBA for years, I'm sure you'd know that by now.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

If Gerlad Green is the next T-Mac, Tyrus Thomas is the next Kevin Garnett. Come on man. Anyways, I think that in order to get Gasol we might have to offer West a fair deal. Something like...

Gordon, Nocioni, PJ, 2007 2nd rounder, 2008 1st rounder for Gasol and Damon Stoudamire

Heading into 07-08...

*BULLS*
PG-Damon Stoudamire
SG-Kirk Hinrich
SF-Luol Deng
PF-Pau Gasol
C-Ben Wallace

Chris Duhon(PG)
Corey Brewer(SG/SF)(9th Pick)
Tyrus Thomas(SF/PF)
P.J. Brown(PF/C)(signed as a FA)

Thabo Sefolosha(PG/SG)
Adrian Griffin(SG/SF)
Viktor Khryapa(SF/PF)
Malik Allen(PF/C)(re-signed)

*GRIZZLIES*
PG-Kyle Lowry
SG-Ben Gordon
SF-Rudy Gay
PF-Hakim Warrick
C-Greg Oden(2nd pick)

Mo Williams(PG/SG)(signed as FA)
Mike Miller(SG/SF)
Andres Nocioni(SF/PF)(re-signed)
Stromile Swift(PF/C)

Zabian Dowdell(PG/SG)(2nd round pick)
DerMarr Johnson(SG/SF)(signed as FA)
Brian Cardinal(SF/PF)
Herbert Hill(PF/C)(2nd round pick)


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

T.Shock said:


> If Gerlad Green is the next T-Mac, Tyrus Thomas is the next Kevin Garnett. Come on man.


Wow..so I guess you weren't around when Green was called the NEXT T-MAC coming out of H.S.

Or how ESPN had him labeled that late last season and throughout the summerleagues...

Step your game up my friend...

Green damn near has the same exact skill set as tmac had coming into the league...games are damn near identical...don't sit here and act like he's some average talent...when he puts it together, he'll be one of the best guards in the NBA...just gonna take a while


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

The ROY said:


> I'm still not getting why Jerry's not jumping on that Boston deal for Jefferson & Green. Is it because the closest thing they have to an expiring deal is Ratliff? If I were West, I would of already made that deal or found a 3rd party with an expiring contract like Orlando, to make it work.


I'm with you. If I were West and had this offer available, I'd go for it. Ratliff's contract is the only problem I can see. You'd think if he insisted on a future first rounder or one of the Celtics lesser young players there'd be a decent chance he could get it thrown in.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Wow..so I guess you weren't around when Green was called the NEXT T-MAC coming out of H.S.
> 
> Or how ESPN had him labeled that late last season and throughout the summerleagues...
> 
> ...


He was drafted #18.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

TripleDouble said:


> He was drafted #18.


Jermaine O'Neal was drafted past that...so?


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

..........


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Jermaine O'Neal was drafted past that...so?


Why would a player be drafted that low if he was, as you say, regarded as the next TMac coming out of HS. Do you really think there were 17 players in that draft thought to be better than TMac? 

And BTW, if I was Memphis I would take Jefferson and Green for Gasol. However, just because a newspaper reports that that was offered doesn't mean that it was.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

The ROY said:


> Wow..so I guess you weren't around when Green was called the NEXT T-MAC coming out of H.S.
> 
> Or how ESPN had him labeled that late last season and throughout the summerleagues...
> 
> ...


Everybody compared Vince Carter to Michael Jordan. What's your point? I didn't realize comparisons always ended up coming true.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

> Luol Deng [SF] [20 Yrs Old] [3rd Season]
> 
> *18.2 PPG
> 7.1 RPG
> ...


The more I see this kid play, the more I realize that this deal should be a straight up TRADE for Deng, Brown & filler (filler = future 1st, duhon, 2nd rounders etc.). We're talking about trading one of the best up-and-coming SF's in the entire NBA IN HIS 3RD SEASON for a 1-time all-star that BARELY posts better numbers than him. This is in no way to discredit Gasol, I love his game and hope we do make a trade for him but it will be EXTREMELY difficult to part with Luol Deng. Great character guy, works incredibly hard and gets better game after game. I couldn't even imagine Deng & Gasol being on the same team. That just wouldn't be fair so I know it's not gonna happen lol. I also know you can't compare these two players since they have entirely different skillsets & play diff positions. The reason why I say this deal needs to be main with THESE two as the main parties is because their is a possiblity that they MAY be walking away with the better player when it's all said and done.

With THAT said, I'd gladly give up Kirk + NY's pick if we could keep Luol.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

If Pau's price really has gone down, I'd try something like this:

Bulls trade:
Ben Wallace
Thabo Sefolosha
Mike Sweetney
Malik Allen
Andre Barrett
Pick swap top 3 protected
3 million cash

Bulls Receive:
Pau Gasol
Brian Cardinal

Grizz trade:
Pau Gasol
Brian Cardinal
Hakim Warrick
Tarence Kansey

Grizz Receive:
Thabo Sefolosha
Richard Jefferson
Michael Sweetney
Bulls Swap top 3 protected

New Jersey trades:
Richard Jefferson
Eddie House
Mile Ilic
Bostjan Nachbar

New Jersey receives:
Ben Wallace
Hakim Warrick
Melvin Ely

Charlotte trades:
Melvin Ely

Charlotte receives:
Eddie House
Malik Allen
Andre Barrett
3 million cash

That'd leave us with a lineup of:

Pau Gasol
Noc/PJ
Deng
Gordon
Hinrich

We'd still have Tyrus, and we still keep our Oden/Durant raffle ticket this summer. If the pick ends up in the 6-10 range, I'd give that up for Gasol without blinking.

And what we're left with a 50-55 win calibre team with with every single core player on the team either in their prime for the next 3-4 years or getting ready to enter it. We'd have a 4-5 year window for the title (or at least the eastern conference crown), I think.

I'm not sure if the other teams would do it, but I tried to make it close for all parties involved. 

From out perspective though, I think it's a slam dunk. We get a 26 year old post player who has every skill that we lack, and we acquire him without giving up a member of our young core, and we solve the 'win now' vs 'win later' conundrum in one fell swoop.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

The ROY said:


> The more I see this kid play, the more I realize that this deal should be a straight up TRADE for Deng, Brown & filler (filler = future 1st, duhon, 2nd rounders etc.). We're talking about trading one of the best up-and-coming SF's in the entire NBA IN HIS 3RD SEASON for a 1-time all-star that BARELY posts better numbers than him.


It's noteworthy that Gasol is Memphis's first option on offense while Deng is the third option on Chicago's offense. It's also noteworthy that Deng is a better defensive player.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

The ROY said:


> The more I see this kid play, the more I realize that this deal should be a straight up TRADE for Deng, Brown & filler (filler = future 1st, duhon, 2nd rounders etc.). We're talking about trading one of the best up-and-coming SF's in the entire NBA IN HIS 3RD SEASON for a 1-time all-star that BARELY posts better numbers than him. This is in no way to discredit Gasol, I love his game and hope we do make a trade for him but it will be EXTREMELY difficult to part with Luol Deng. Great character guy, works incredibly hard and gets better game after game. I couldn't even imagine Deng & Gasol being on the same team. That just wouldn't be fair so I know it's not gonna happen lol. I also know you can't compare these two players since they have entirely different skillsets & play diff positions. The reason why I say this deal needs to be main with THESE two as the main parties is because their is a possiblity that they MAY be walking away with the better player when it's all said and done.


You and I could not be more on the same page as far as a Deng-Gasol deal goes.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Why isn't Deng an All Star? Why isnt he the 1st option? Would Deng be the first option if Gordon was traded for Gasol? Does Deng contend with being double teamed _before_ the catch?

Deng to Gasol=Apples to Oranges

Deng, Thabo, PJ Brown, (NY pick or Tyrus) for Gasol, Cardinal, (Dahntay Jones or Hakim Warrick) within 48 hours.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> Deng, Thabo, PJ Brown, (NY pick or Tyrus) for Gasol, Cardinal, (Dahntay Jones or Hakim Warrick) within 48 hours.


That's pretty bold...do you have a scoop?


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> Deng, Thabo, PJ Brown, (NY pick or Tyrus) for Gasol, Cardinal, (Dahntay Jones or Hakim Warrick) within 48 hours.


Based on who was benched on the Bulls tonight, if the deal goes down in the next 48 hours it will be Nocioni, PJ Brown & NY pick for Gasol.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> Why isn't Deng an All Star? Why isnt he the 1st option? Would Deng be the first option if Gordon was traded for Gasol? Does Deng contend with being double teamed _before_ the catch?
> 
> Deng to Gasol=Apples to Oranges
> 
> Deng, Thabo, PJ Brown, (NY pick or Tyrus) for Gasol, Cardinal, (Dahntay Jones or Hakim Warrick) within 48 hours.


I was just taking a break from studying, and saw this. Wow.

Is might be me, but I don't do this trade if we are adding NYK or Tyrus. 

Plus taking back Cardinal means Deng should be enough. If we are giving up that much, I would have been content with Gasol, Warrick, and Stoudamire (ideally Mike Miller).


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

McBulls said:


> Based on who was benched on the Bulls tonight, if the deal goes down in the next 48 hours it will be Nocioni, PJ Brown & NY pick for Gasol.


Yes, please!


----------



## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

McBulls said:


> Based on who was benched on the Bulls tonight, if the deal goes down in the next 48 hours it will be Nocioni, PJ Brown & NY pick for Gasol.


pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease


I doubt it though.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

McBulls said:


> Based on who was benched on the Bulls tonight, if the deal goes down in the next 48 hours it will be Nocioni, PJ Brown & NY pick for Gasol.



John Paxson for President if that happened.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

I wouldn't be shocked if that was the deal. Because if Gerald Green and Al Jefferson are as good as they're said to be, I don't see the Celtics moving them for Gasol. That pick is treated like gold though, so that being included could make it happen depending on how the gm's actually value the pick.

It'd be interesting to see how much of the Knicks motivation was based on the Bulls getting their pick, if say Grizzlies get it....maybe Knicks don't try as hard and fall.

But still.

PG-Kyle Lowry
SG-Rudy Gay
SF-Andres Nocioni
Pf-Kevin Durant
C- Greg Oden

Thats pretty slick.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

MemphisX, care to elaborate?


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Yeah, Tyrus definitely isn't going anywhere, either is Gordon or Hinrich.

Deng is the top seller. But your not going to get much else outside of Deng. 

I think they'll end up doing Nocioni, Thabo, PJ, Knicks pick as the final deal.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

I kind of think MemphisX is just enjoying getting us whipped up into a frenzy.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

MemphisX said:


> Deng, Thabo, PJ Brown, (NY pick or Tyrus) for Gasol, Cardinal, (Dahntay Jones or Hakim Warrick) within 48 hours.


I'd let go of the NY pick, but not Tyrus.

G Hinrich / Duhon
G Gordon / -
F Nocioni / Thomas / Khyrapa
F Gasol / Warrick
C Wallace

=


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

If we're giving up Deng, Thabo, PJ, and Tyrus, we're getting Gasol and Gay back, nothing short of that.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Mebarak said:


> If we're giving up Deng, Thabo, PJ, and Tyrus, we're getting Gasol and Gay back, nothing short of that.


Ok John..


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

ViciousFlogging said:


> pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease
> 
> 
> I doubt it though.


Let's face it, the injuries to Nocioni and Brown are both rather optional, and I agree that the trade should come soon if it's going to happen. 

The rest of the league has had a chance to think about what it would offer for Gasol. Boston reportedly has ante'd up; but Gasol would refuse to go to a rebuilding team, so they are not real competitors. The Phoenix rumor is real competition, but does Memphis really want to deal Gasol to a division rival?

No, West can either deal with Chicago and go into retirement having two lottery picks in a strong draft and two expiring contracts who are currently "injured" and can be kept on the bench while the team tanks the rest of the season; or he can leave the Grizzlies having let Gasol reduce the team's chances at a top pick in the lottery in a futile winning burst at the end of the season.

It wouldn't take too much luck for Memphis to land a top center as Gasol's replacement with their first lottery pick (#1-#4) and a top guard with our NY pick. They can resign Nocioni, and trade him if they like for additional picks and other considerations.

That's a bright and fiscally responsible future for the Grizzleys.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

What was PJ's 'injury' or injury?


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

theanimal23 said:


> What was PJ's 'injury' or injury?


back stiffness.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> That's pretty bold...do you have a scoop?


Nope, I dont scoop, I parse.

1. The Bull are desperate for low post scoring and one of the top 5 in the NBA became available.

2. Two GMs that normally never admit to anything have openly been talking about this deal.

3. Jerry West wanted Deng _or_ Gordon and the NY pick, however, it was misreported so Chicago fans will feel relieved when Gordon is not dealt.

4. West wants a guard and Chicago only has one talented one out of the rotation.

5. Chicago checked to see if they could protect their pick swap.

6. NY's improved play has made the chances of the NY pick being a jackpot minute.

7. Deng's age is in line with Memphis' future of Lowry, Gay, 2007 lottery pick.

8. The report from Greece about Deng.

9. Gasol admission that he was sure he would be traded with a time span included.

10. Gasol happy about Chicago.

11. Paxson continuing to state the teams need for post scoring and the high cost they might have to pay to get it. Usually he would make a statement that the team cant depend upon a trade helping them.

12. Chicago's road trip...


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

I've fallen for the he's out of the lineup so he must be traded like sixteen kajillion times over the last year; no more! 

Brown is 42. The back pains are probably legit.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Hey, I didn't know if you notice, but the Bulls aren't in any hurry to make a trade.

They're 29-23. They only have 6 games against Western teams rest. They're done with the big shots in the West, leaving with wins over Lakers, SPurs, Suns, and Mavs. They are 20-8 against the East, and thats who 24 of their 30 remaining games are against. Its smooth sailing for the Bulls the rest of the way.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> Nope, I dont scoop, I parse.


It wasn't so much your logic I was asking about, but the specificity, both time and personnel-wise, that made me think you had a source...


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I think a trade goes down, but not at that price. Spongy posted an ESPN radio clip about Tyrus's fine. Pax spoke about a trade and how much Luol meant to the organization, etc. Those would be the words he would say after a trade is announced. The info from Greece seems legit. I think a deal has been in place, it's just that the Grizz are hoping for better offers. If none come, then the predetermined deal occurs. I'm betting it's not what MemphisX said, as that is overpaying. It will be something along the lines of this, and I hope it really is: Deng, PJ, and 2008 pick. If we add another player, we will get Warrick/Jones back.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

I doubt Memphis gets the premium for Gasol.

I think it'll go down as Nocioni, Thabo, PJ, and the pick. Some good young talent there, but also that pick. They could very easily go for a swinging for the fences type of deal, and hope that the balls bounce the right way, so they can get both Oden and Durant. We already know Celtics won't deal their pick, so this is the Grizzlie's only other opportunity to get another pick.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Memphis, I liked your post, but I just wonder why you said within 48 hours. It just led us to believing you had a source. If you do get one, give us the 411.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

The problem you guys have with giving up the NY pick is that you have spent the better part of a year with the fanytasy of Oden, Durant, Wright or Hawes. However, the true worth of the pick is not near that high. It will probably fall between 9 and 15. A good player. A good _role[i/] player. I doubt the pick will be better than Nocioni for the forseeable future.

I guarantee you that no time in the next four years would anyone on this board want to redo the trade for the exact players. Gasol is that good._


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> The problem you guys have with giving up the NY pick is that you have spent the better part of a year with the fanytasy of Oden, Durant, Wright or Hawes. However, the true worth of the pick is not near that high. It will probably fall between 9 and 15. A good player. A good _role[i/] player. I doubt the pick will be better than Nocioni for the forseeable future.
> 
> I guarantee you that no time in the next four years would anyone on this board want to redo the trade for the exact players. Gasol is that good._


_
You'll have to come back here and remind me of how good Gasol is if a trade for Deng does go down, because I'll be balling my eyes out. Well maybe not balling my eyes out, but you get the point._


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> The problem you guys have with giving up the NY pick is that you have spent the better part of a year with the fanytasy of Oden, Durant, Wright or Hawes. However, the true worth of the pick is not near that high. It will probably fall between 9 and 15. A good player. A good _role[i/] player. I doubt the pick will be better than Nocioni for the forseeable future.
> 
> I guarantee you that no time in the next four years would anyone on this board want to redo the trade for the exact players. Gasol is that good._


_

I have no problem giving up the pick. I don't think it will be Oden or Durant. I don't want anyone else.

Would Memphis do this deal: Deng, NYK, PJ for Gasol and Warrick? I just think that the 2008 pick plus Deng is good value for a guy who wants out. I would still do this without Warrick coming back (with NYK, not 2008)._


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

We would regret giving up the Knicks pick. Bank on it. There will be plenty of good players left after Oden/Durant. Many of them will turn out better than Nocioni, IMO.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> You'll have to come back here and remind me of how good Gasol is if a trade for Deng does go down, because I'll be balling my eyes out. Well maybe not balling my eyes out, but you get the point.


Trust me, I don't think he'll have to. Pau's play will speak for itself.

As moody as Gasol has been this season, I'd hate to trade him for Luol Deng and a low-lottery draft pick. That would seriously depress me as a Grizzlies fan. Gasol's a player that only comes around once every few years. He's a top-five power forward and the second only to Yao Ming as a center.

Deng's good and all, not to mention young, but our best players besides Pau are Mike Miller and Rudy Gay. Two guys who are best-utilized as small forwards. Deng's best-utilized as a small forward. That alone bothers me. 

Besides Oden, Durant and a handful of others, I'm not doing backflips over the rest of the guys in the draft, including the ones that will be around the 10-14 range where the Knicks pick will be. Marcus Williams, I like. I doubt Al Horford will be there. It's dodgy. PJ Brown is nothing but a contract. To Memphis, Nocioni is nothing but a contract. Tyrus Thomas would just be redundant. Duhon's an average backup point - I'd rather have Chucky Atkins for next year to be honest just because this Grizzlies team has so few scoring options.

So the trade is basically Pau Gasol for Luol Deng + ...Corey Brewer? Jeff Green? Aaron Gray?

I think Deng will wind up being a very nice player, but he won't be a guy you can build an entire offense around like you can Gasol and on top of that, he plays the same position as our other two best players. I'm crossing my fingers for a quiet deadline on the Grizzlies' front.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

On a pure talent level you very well may be right. What I like so much about Deng is that he along with Hinrich, especially Noc, Gordon and to a lesser extent Duhon, have developed a level of cohesion that will take a years with a new acquisitoin. They actually move the ball with a team concept and rely on each either -- and that's really fun to watch. The teams going to take a step back even if Gasol is quite a bit 'better;' which is fine, I suppose.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> The problem you guys have with giving up the NY pick is that you have spent the better part of a year with the fanytasy of Oden, Durant, Wright or Hawes. However, the true worth of the pick is not near that high. It will probably fall between 9 and 15. A good player. A good _role[i/] player. I doubt the pick will be better than Nocioni for the forseeable future.
> 
> I guarantee you that no time in the next four years would anyone on this board want to redo the trade for the exact players. Gasol is that good._


_

There's a pretty easy work around with Oden/Durant and even Wright/Hawes: pick protection.

I don't know where you've been getting your info on the Knicks but I wouldn't say they're playing particularly good basketball right now, they're 5-5 in their last ten. For them to have the 15th worst record in the NBA they would likely need to be the 7th team out of the East. That would require them to pass three teams and makeup 3.5 games with only thirty remaining. I suppose that's doable but they would have to play substantially better baseketball than they've played at any point during the past two seasons. By comparison they're only three games away from the league's fifth worst record and a considerable number of ping pong balls._


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Two things...

1)A trade for Pau isn't absolutely necessary but it does make a lot of sense for the Bulls and almost none for the Grizzlies. History has shown us that trading a superstar player usually ends up backfiring and you get less than equal value and your team usually takes a step backwards. Imagine Orlando with T-Mac and Dwight Howard right now. The Raps with VC and Bosh. LA with Shaq and Kobe still. The Grizz with Pau and Oden or Pau and Durant. I'd love for the Bulls to grab Gasol, but if I'm Memphis I simply don't trade him.

2)If Memphis does decide to deal Gasol, Deng vs Gordon could end up being the debate of the century on this board. Which one will become the second all-star so to speak? Gordon with his outside shooting or Deng with his vast improving all-around game. A trio of Hinrich, Gordon or Deng, and Gasol has not only short-term potential, but long term potential as well. Throw Big Ben, Tyrus, Duhon, Nocioni, and a couple more draft picks into the mix and we'd have a championship-level squad for the next 5-6 years.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Rawse said:


> He's a top-five power forward and the second only to Yao Ming as a center.


Better than Howard?


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> back stiffness.


Who gave him a stiffy in his backside?


----------



## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Who gave him a stiffy in his backside?


Couldn't help yourself could you?


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

IMO, Deng, Brown & the NY pick is a fair enough deal @ this point. If West needs more contracts, add Sweetney to the mix.

Yes, the NY pick looks to be in the 8-14 range but I'm sure Memphis can get a very productive player in that group. On TOP of the pick you recieve from us, you guys also have a incredibly good chance of landing Oden & Durant in this draft with your own pick. Best draft in a LONG time to have TWO lotto selections. I know Mike Miller isn't a problem, but to prevent a glut @ the SF/SG position, I'd probably move him for an expiring contract & a draft pick. Maybe to a team like Phoenix, who have an expiring contract (Thomas) & three first round picks. Just a thought.


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## RageofDaBulls (Feb 2, 2007)

Trading deng will be a very big mistake for this team imo.deng does so much more then just shoot or get to the line vs gordons just shooting and a little drive here and there.for me it was really a toss up between the 2 but after last nights game where both guys did well,i was left with the feeling that the gordon we all see today will be the sameplayer we see 5,10 years from now.

im sure some of you will point out the hole at SG created by trading gordon,but i dont feel it will be that huge since some of the things like D,rebounding,steals that other guys like Thabo,griff and even deng or what we may get from the trade will bring should more then outweight the loss of 10-15ppg.and dont forget that we will also need to get gasol some points..

on paper it looks like trading deng is the better choice since we have noc to replace him.but if you look at gordon as a point playing at the 2 then you will see that the hole we all fear of creating is already there,and gordon is/has been just a band aid for it.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

RageofDaBulls said:


> Trading deng will be a very big mistake for this team imo.deng does so much more then just shoot or get to the line vs gordons just shooting and a little drive here and there.for me it was really a toss up between the 2 but after last nights game where both guys did well,i was left with the feeling that the gordon we all see today will be the sameplayer we see 5,10 years from now.


Thabo and Griff don't bring ANYTHING Gordon brings to the table. Thabo actually looks WORSE since he became a Bull.

I don't see how you could say he'll be the same player 5-10 years from now when he's became 2x the player he was in just 1 offseason. There aren't many players in the ENTIRE league as clutch as him. And when it comes to that talent, Luol is NOWHERE near Gordon.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

I DO think the trade (if it happens) will get done in the next couple of days though. I see Paxson & West also making another tweak or two before the deadline.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> Better than Howard?


Right now, yes.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Rawse said:


> Right now, yes.


Hmmm...Not sure about that, really. Pau has an edge in some of the so-called "glory stats" numbers...

Dwight Howard 
Orlando Magic 
Position: C-F 
Height: 6-11 Weight: 265 
High School : SW Atlanta Christian Academy (GA) 
Player file | Team stats


2006-07 Statistics
PPG	17.6
RPG	11.8 
APG	1.7
SPG	.75
BPG	1.83
FG%	.592
FT%	.620
3P%	1.000
MPG	35.8

Pau Gasol 
Memphis Grizzlies 
Position: C 
Height: 7-0 Weight: 260 
From : Spain 
Player file | Team stats


2006-07 Statistics
PPG	20.6
RPG	8.9 
APG	3.2
SPG	.34
BPG	2.28
FG%	.537
FT%	.743
3P%	.250
MPG	34.3

But I've watched both play several times this season and I just see Dwight as more of a force. He doesn't have to carry as much of the load in Orlando as much as Pau does in Memphis, which might explain the stats difference a little bit. Not that I'm using that as a crutch -- its just the only way I can reconcile my actual observations with the slight stat edge held by Pau. Howard is simply a beasty beast.

Don't get me wrong, I'll be happy if we end up getting Gasol. However, if given the chance to do the same deal for Dwight Howard, I'd take him without hesitation, both for now and for the future.
:twocents:


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'll be happy if we end up getting Gasol. However, if given the chance to do the same deal for Dwight Howard, I'd take him without hesitation, both for now and for the future.
> :twocents:


I'd trade this entire team for Dwight Howard


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

The ROY said:


> I'd trade this entire team for Dwight Howard



Do the salaries match?


:biggrin:


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Hmmm...Not sure about that, really. Pau has an edge in some of the so-called "glory stats" numbers...
> 
> Dwight Howard
> Orlando Magic
> ...


If this was the last NBA season ever, I'd take Pau Gasol over Howard, and much of that has to do with experience. Gasol has just been playing the game professionally for so much longer and just has a better understanding of it. You can build an entire offense around him, which I can't say for Howard...yet. His post moves are more polished, and his court vision is unparalleled for guys Gasol's size. Gasol, as a playmaker can certainly be mentioned among the Chris Webbers and Kevin Garnetts of the league. I put his playmaking above Shaq's. He's a cerebral player, and by that, he has the ability to make his teammates better.

Howard uses brute force and athleticism, and that's not a dig toward him, because he can dominate games doing simply that. He beat the Spurs last week just by virtue of being a freak-of-nature. But he hasn't developed his game and doesn't elevate his teammates to the point where I'd take him for one season over Gasol.

And I use the one season example because Howard is just going to be amazing when he hits his prime years.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Hmmm...Not sure about that, really. Pau has an edge in some of the so-called "glory stats" numbers...
> 
> Dwight Howard
> Orlando Magic
> ...


I am a huge Dwight Howard fan/believer and I would absolutely bet the farm that he'll win multiple MVPs and rings down the road. 

However, I see Rawse's point, especially within the context of the Bulls. Right now, Gasol is much better at manufacturing his own shot. His post-move repertoire is practically unlimited, he's vastly better at recognizing double-teams, and he at least has the threat of a 17-foot-and-in face-up jumper. Defensively, too, it's pretty much a wash, imo. Howard isn't nearly the force that he ought to be, at least not yet.

It's just a matter of "when" Howard becomes the superior player, not if. Maybe it happens next year, maybe even later this season (that's how fast Howard seems to pick things up). But right now, today, fate of the earth hangs in the balance, I'd take Gasol.

Most importantly, Gasol is available. I don't think there's a player in the league more untouchable than Howard, and yes, that includes LeBron and probably even the draft rights to Greg Oden/Kevin Durant.


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## badfish (Feb 4, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> I am a huge Dwight Howard fan/believer and I would absolutely bet the farm that he'll win multiple MVPs and rings down the road.
> 
> However, I see Rawse's point, especially within the context of the Bulls. Right now, Gasol is much better at manufacturing his own shot. His post-move repertoire is practically unlimited, he's vastly better at recognizing double-teams, and he at least has the threat of a 17-foot-and-in face-up jumper. Defensively, too, it's pretty much a wash, imo. Howard isn't nearly the force that he ought to be, at least not yet.
> 
> ...


Mighty fine jib he's got too. :biggrin: 

I agree with everything you've said here about Howard.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

> Rick(Home of the Blues): John, why would the Grizz want Deng? I think Hinrich fits out long term plan better than Deng? Man! Don't we have a SF already? Or has given up on Gay already?
> 
> SportsNation John Hollinger: (2:22 PM ET ) You want Deng over Hinrich, trust me. As far as Gay is concerned, Deng is probably going to able to play the 4 in another year or two if the Griz want to line up that way, so I wouldn't sweat it.


From Hollinger's chat...

So some people really believe Deng will be able to play the 4 to THAT extent? Can't say I agree


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

The ROY said:


> From Hollinger's chat...
> 
> So some people really believe Deng will be able to play the 4 to THAT extent? Can't say I agree


I'm a huge Hollinger fan and a huge Deng fan but I never, ever understand why a guy who's very close to a prototypical three would end up becoming a four when he would have to put on a lot of weight and make considerable changes to his game.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

> S (London): Answer my question...Don't me make come over there. Gasol to the Bulls - Is this going to happen? They surely can't trade my boy Deng!
> 
> SportsNation John Hollinger: (2:49 PM ET ) I think it's better than 50-50 that it will happen, jsut because Pau fits Chicago's needs so perfectly. And if it does, I'm guessing Deng is the guy that goes to Memphis (along with P.J. and one of the kids/draft picks)


-- From Hollinger's chat


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I'm a huge Hollinger fan and a huge Deng fan but I never, ever understand why a guy who's very close to a prototypical three would end up becoming a four when he would have to put on a lot of weight and make considerable changes to his game.


I agree that Deng's best position figures to be the 3 for a long time, but I could see Deng playing a neo-4 in an uptempo team. He gained a lot of bulk this past offseason, he crashes the boards well, and is a great scorer around the basket, so I could see him playing the 4 the way Shawn Marion does for Phoenix.

And I'm pretty sure that guys like Shareef, Dirk, and Antwan Jamison came into the league playing the three only to later become full time PFs. I know all three of those guys had more of a game well suited to play PF right off the bat, but Deng is pretty comparable in size to those guys, and does some things similar to them. 

I don't see Deng as a PF full time (at least in the foreseeable future), but if a GM really wanted to get cute, I suppose you could make it work.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

The ROY said:


> -- From Hollinger's chat


I think most of us have seen the writing on the wall. A tidbit from ESPN.com's Rumor Central states that Paxson considers Gordon untouchable. I somewhat understand the logic behind dealing Deng instead of Gordon. Nocioni, while not nearly as talented, is a better defender and long-range shooter than Deng. Deng gets a lot of his points off drives to the hole and baseline jumpers. With Gasol down in the post, those oppurtunities will be harder to come by. However, the thought of a Deng/Gasol/Wallace frontline now and a Deng/Tyrus/Gasol frontline in the future makes me drool. Let's not sell Gordon short though, he is a hell of a player. 

On a seperate note, could PJ be waived by the Grizz and then re-sign with us. I seem to recall something like that happening either last year or the year before last. Although I suppose a bench of Duhon/Griffin/Tyrus/Malik is not half bad. Where does the scoring come from though?


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

This may have been posed elsewhere, but when exactly IS the trade deadline? I've been looking and can't seem to find it.

Thanks in advance!

Go Bull!


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Wynn said:


> This may have been posed elsewhere, but when exactly IS the trade deadline? I've been looking and can't seem to find it.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Go Bull!


February 22, 2007. I think it typically ends at 4:00 p.m. Eastern time.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

T.Shock said:


> On a seperate note, could PJ be waived by the Grizz and then re-sign with us. I seem to recall something like that happening either last year or the year before last. Although I suppose a bench of Duhon/Griffin/Tyrus/Malik is not half bad. Where does the scoring come from though?


The NBA frowns on this, since it's an obvious way of getting around the trade restrictions related to salary cap. I think NY & Chicago had an informal arrangement that Antonio Davis would be waived and return to Chicago, but when the NBA got wind of it both sides were threatened into not doing it.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

McBulls said:


> The NBA frowns on this, since it's an obvious way of getting around the trade restrictions related to salary cap. I think NY & Chicago had an informal arrangement that Antonio Davis would be waived and return to Chicago, but when the NBA got wind of it both sides were threatened into not doing it.


It was my impression after the fallout from that trade that Paxson and Thomas had a handshake deal, and that Thomas merely pulled a fast one and refused to let AD go. This is why their was so much animosity between the two, and why Paxson openly stated that AD would be coming back, but had to retract.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

I don't see the Bulls trading for Gasol unless they truly believe Gasol is the piece that can win us championships in a 3 - 5 year window

That's the leap of faith Jerry Reinsdorf has to make as ultimately its his dime

But if we don't trade for Gasol don't be too disappointed when we don't resign all of Luol Deng, Ben Gordon and Andres Nocioni 

We have a max contract for the next 4 years in Ben Wallace . Kirk is at what ? 75% of max . You have to assume both Deng or Gordon will be in excess of 80% of max. And then there's Nocioni who will be around $6M a year.

Does this team contend with these 5 earning close to $50M a year ?


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> It was my impression after the fallout from that trade that Paxson and Thomas had a handshake deal, and that Thomas merely pulled a fast one and refused to let AD go. This is why their was so much animosity between the two, and why Paxson openly stated that AD would be coming back, but had to retract.


Don't know if it was Thomas, the NBA, or simply an unfounded rumor. I'm no IT fan, but the NBA seems the most likely culprit...and if the NBA stepped in, I don't blame them. It's a bad precedent that circumvents the rules.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

transplant said:


> Don't know if it was Thomas, the NBA, or simply an unfounded rumor. I'm no IT fan, but the NBA seems the most likely culprit...and if the NBA stepped in, I don't blame them. It's a bad precedent that circumvents the rules.


I don't see a blatent violation of the rules, unless West and Paxson agree to this before the deal is completed. If Paxson simply deals PJ and West decides to waive him, he is in effect a free agent, and we should have an equal oppurtunity to sign him.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

transplant said:


> Don't know if it was Thomas, the NBA, or simply an unfounded rumor. I'm no IT fan, but the NBA seems the most likely culprit...and if the NBA stepped in, I don't blame them. It's a bad precedent that circumvents the rules.


The thing about that, though, is that I never read anywhere where this actually is a violation of the CBA. It appears to me it would be against the "spirit" of the CBA, but who gives a flying frog about that? 

If it isn't a rule, it can't be a circumvention of the rule. Its very easy to draft a prohibition against this type of thing:

"A traded and subsequently waived player cannot re-sign, during the same season, with the last team trading him prior to waiver." 

There, I just barred it.  But I've not seen where the NBA did.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> The thing about that, though, is that I never read anywhere where this actually is a violation of the CBA. It appears to me it would be against the "spirit" of the CBA, but who gives a flying frog about that?
> 
> If it isn't a rule, it can't be a circumvention of the rule. Its very easy to draft a prohibition against this type of thing:
> 
> ...


From memory they did negotiate it into the new CBA after so many teams spat the dummy over the Gary Payton trade.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> The thing about that, though, is that I never read anywhere where this actually is a violation of the CBA. It appears to me it would be against the "spirit" of the CBA, but who gives a flying frog about that?
> 
> If it isn't a rule, it can't be a circumvention of the rule. Its very easy to draft a prohibition against this type of thing:
> 
> ...


Penguin, did you just tell me that it was not only against the "spirit" but also the "letter" of the CBA? Damn, them there lawyers are smart.


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## Bulldozer (Jul 11, 2006)

*Pau prediction: Patient Pax will pull trigger*

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/couch/253404,CST-SPT-greg12.article


> February 12, 2007
> BY GREG COUCH Sun-Times Columnist
> 
> This is the test of John Paxson. Is he too much in love with his own creation, this Bulls core group? Is he overly conservative, too tentative to make the Big Deal?
> ...


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

Paxson will not trade Deng, Gordon, or KH, period. Those three are untouchable and West can whine all he wants. First, Gordon for Paul? Right now Ben is worth more that Pau. No disrespect to Pau but Gordon is a star and can totally take over a game. Can Pau? NO. And while i am at it is Pau really one of the best 30 players in the NBA. I dont think so. Maybe a top 40 player.

Now Deng right now is putting up better numbers than Pau and is only 22 years old and will only get better. He is also above average defender and rebounder while Pau is a weak defender.

If west wants Deng for Pau then i want there 2007 first round pick! As for Gordon and Deng for Pau i think Jerry West is on crack. Both those players a better than Pau right now.

And Pax is not going to trade TT. If west wants to move Pau my guess is it is PJ, Thabo, and the NY pick for Pau. That is the 13th pick in 2006, what is likely the 9th pick in 2007, and 12 million in cap space. That is the best that west is going to get. This years draft is the best in 10 years and this will give Memphis one of the top 3 picks and the 9th pick. Memphis is bleeding money and will go chapter 11 if they dont move Pau so west really doesnt have much else he can do.

daivd


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## bre9 (Jan 8, 2006)

giusd said:


> Paxson will not trade Deng, Gordon, or KH, period. Those three are untouchable and West can whine all he wants. First, Gordon for Paul? Right now Ben is worth more that Pau. No disrespect to Pau but Gordon is a star and can totally take over a game. Can Pau? NO. And while i am at it is Pau really one of the best 30 players in the NBA. I dont think so. Maybe a top 40 player.
> 
> Now Deng right now is putting up better numbers than Pau and is only 22 years old and will only get better. He is also above average defender and rebounder while Pau is a weak defender.
> 
> ...


Agree, two young stars(Ben and Luol) for one young star(Pau) just isn't worth it.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Its either going to be Nocioni or Deng. If it ends up Nocioni, Thabo, PJ, and the 2008 pick, then Paxson is a ****ing genius. 

I don't think trading Deng would be the end of the world, as if its Deng being traded, he'd be the main component, with PJ, and there would be little else valuable being traded, maybe a 2008 pick at most.

It might not be too bad to part with Deng, I think altogether, Paxson needs to keep the Gordon and Hinrich backcourt together. Kirk Hinrich isn't as great when he has to guard the point guards defensively. He is actually better guarding the twos, and Gordon the point guards. That is a perfect backcourt, they're good both sides of the court.

But just looking at scoring.

Ben Gordon 21.2 PPG on 50.2 eFG% and 86.8 FT%

Luol Deng 18.4 PPG on 52.2 eFG% and 75.6 FT%

Kirk Hinrich 16.3 PPG on 51.2 eFG% and 81.3 FT%

Andres Nocioni 15.0 PPG on 53.6 eFG% and 84.9 FT%

When you factor in eFG% and FT% together, I think Deng comes out as the least efficient scorer of our big three (all the margin in between all of them is very small).

Now, if you've watched, Nocioni, Gordon, and Hinrich are the ones who are making all the big plays in the clutch. Its rarely Deng, Deng always disappears in the 2nd half.

I think the best thing to do, is trade Deng and then Thabo if neccasary. 

Luol Deng is fools gold imo, and Nocioni will be more valuable if we want to make a title run this year. 

Give me

PG-Kirk Hinrich
SG-Ben Gordon
SF-Andres Nocioni
PF-Pau Gasol
C- Ben Wallace

Off the bench: Thabo, Tyrus (6th man), Khryapa, Duhon (7th man), and Allen.

From here on out, after the trade, we should be playing the starters 36+ minutes, with Tyrus and Duhon getting most of the reserve minutes.

I think its going to be worth it to hold onto that draft pick. We are going to be top 9 imo for sure.

I think you have to rank the draft board as follows for the Bulls

1. Kevin Durant
2. Greg Oden
3. Hasheem Thabeet
4. Joakim Noah
5. Al Horford/Brandan Wright

We'll get one of those 6 imo, so it'll be worth it to keep the pick.

Make it Deng, Brown, and Thabo/2008 Pick...Thats the best possible deal for this team imo.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Gordon + capspace + ?Thomas + pick for Gasol? 

I think Paxson has already made himself clear on that, or any other scenario involving Gordon. Giving a pick and a non-core player in addition to capspace is the essense of stupidity.

But personally, I'd give up Gordon before letting Deng go. Shooting guards aren't as hard to come by as 21 year old, cat-quick 6'10" forwards who have unnaturally long arms, a deadly outside shot, and an uncanny basketball IQ. But that's just me.

If West thinks he needs one of the core, then Gordon + Brown. Period. And we're not very happy about it; after all we're giving up one of the best shooters in the game who also happens to be in his rookie contract.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

I'm not sure about this article. There's a lot I disagree with.



> The Bulls need him. Make the right deal for Gasol, and they should be in the NBA Finals this season. It's all there, lined up as perfectly as the Super Bowl run was for the Bears.


The Bulls aren't going to be a finals team with Gasol this season. Maybe next year. But you can't just throw players together and expect them to gel within a third of a season.



> Gasol, 26, is a star. Not a superstar, but a star. And he gives the Bulls what they're missing, namely inside scoring. He draws a double team, passes well. He would be a perfect complement for Ben Wallace, the other star.


Maybe this is just symantics, but can anyone seriously say that Wallace is a star?



> Or is he just being crafty?
> 
> I think it's the last one, the crafty one. I think so, but it's hard to say because, at times, Paxson has been those other things, too.


Has Paxson been too attached to his players in the past? I think the reverse is true. We have Chandler now instead of Wallace and Curry in the lineup and this team is by far the best in the East. (Though I know Curry was traded for other reasons than production.)



> It's all part of the show. Grizzlies president Jerry West going off to Finland for a scouting trip as if the whole Gasol issue isn't pressing? Show.


Okay, that's taking the conspiracy theory a bit far . . .


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Curry and Chandler weren't the Paxson brought together core.

Hinrich, Nocioni, Deng, and Gordon are.

Its quite obvious Paxson moved those two soley to clear house from the previous management.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> Luol Deng is fools gold imo,


The fact that he's not a closer doesn't make him fools gold. We generally win when he plays well. He's not the guy we go to for late-game shots, but he still contributes late in games on the boards and defensively.

that said, I agree that we can afford to lose one of Deng or Noc, though I love both guys. And Noc has shown that he can be clutch.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> The fact that he's not a closer doesn't make him fools gold. We generally win when he plays well.


I can't go with you there. Deng plays well almost every night now; we don't win almost all of our games. 

However, we do almost win almost all of our games.

:biggrin:


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

So no news of West and Paxson talking more, eh? Did West get back in the country today?


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> When you factor in eFG% and FT% together, I think Deng comes out as the least efficient scorer of our big three (all the margin in between all of them is very small).
> 
> Luol Deng is fools gold imo, and Nocioni will be more valuable if we want to make a title run this year.


No offense but to me this reeks of forming a conclusion and then finding whatever support you can to back it up afterwards. You're pretty much reaching a conclusion entirely based on eyeballing the eFG and FT percentages over 50 games. Sorry but I'd want to be a little more rigorous before dealing a potential franchise player and labeling him "fools gold." 

If you look at TS% which includes free throws percentage (and the frequency with which a player reaches the line which is absolutely essential and completely absent from your analysis) the numbers come out as: Noc - 57.9, Gordon - 57.1, Deng - 56.7, Kirk - 56.1. That data points out two problems with your approach 1) Noc should be the most untradeable player on the team by your logic while there's a reason we have a "big three" and he's not included in it 2) two percentage points is a very small spread, especially when looking at only 50 games. Considering how close those numbers are to each other the order could just as easily be reversed next season. That would lead me to look at other factors.

Lu has a huge edge in terms of age and probably in turn potential with Gordon, the next youngest in the group, three years older than him. He's also one of the best rebounding 3s in the league which means he's probably right behind Kirk in terms of all around game. 

My favorite part is that people constantly complain that we have a streaky jump shooting team that prevents us from winning consistently and then argue in favor of trading away by far the most consistent player on the team because he chips in his 18 points somewhat quietly each night and doesn't alternate poor shooting games with 4th quarter barages.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

step said:


> From memory they did negotiate it into the new CBA after so many teams spat the dummy over the Gary Payton trade.


That is correct.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

It has to be one or the other. Wont be both. And it might not be either one if Pax has his way but I would think its either Deng or Gordon gone. Two weeks ago this was a no-brainer to me.Deng was a goner. However, since then he has stepped it up in every aspect of his game. Is he being showcased so memphis wont want gordon over Luol? Or has he basically gotten into a grove? Gasol can pass. I can see a frontline of Deng Gasol and Wallace wreaking havoc in the nba.However, we will miss dearly Bens shooting from the outside! With gasol here and demanding the double team it will help Bens game even more! Hinrich and Duhon can hit the jumper as well. Thabo is still unproven, though he has his moments. And I would not want Griff to play meaningful minutes at the SG position. Losing Gordon will hurt us at the guard spot. No doubt. If deng is gone, Nocioni, Thabo griff and even TT can play that spot. But Damn...he is playing so well right now. Either way, I will hate to see either one of the leave, but Gasol fits our team so perfectly that we need to make this deal.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

such sweet thunder said:


> The Bulls aren't going to be a finals team with Gasol this season. Maybe next year. But you can't just throw players together and expect them to gel within a third of a season.


Guess you never heard of the 04 Pistons then...

I don't see how you could say we CAN'T get to the finals with Gasol this season. I'm still trying to figure out what frontcourt at the top of the east is gonna stop Wallace (who will turn his game up in the playoffs) and Gasol (who's been becoming an even BETTER player his last 20 games or so).

Cleveland? nah

Detriot? nope

Miami? We almost beat them last year, but with Pau? They look even lesser than they look when we lost to them.

Pau takes us to another level, PERIOD. It's just too bad that we'd have to trade Luol to get him.

If we COULD, I'd trade the NY pick, Brown, Sweetney & our two 2nd rounders but that just ain't gonna cut it. They want a YOUNG-PROVEN-EMERGING player. That alone eliminates their need for Andres.


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## dogra (Nov 12, 2003)

I'm beginning to wonder if it's possible that Kirk is the guy West wants and not Deng or Gordon as has been floated in the rumor mill.

Points have been made in recent articles about the fact that Memphis likely doesn't want to deal with having to resign players who will demand big money, that they are looking to shed contracts. Does having to resign either Deng or Gordon make sense in that scenario? It makes a little more sense to me that the Grizz would want to grab a good young player who was locked up.

Hinrich is locked up at a fairly reasonable contract. And, unlike the small forward position (doesn't Memphis have 3 or 4 of those on their roster already?), PG is a real position of need for the Grizz. 

For them, bringing in some expiring contracts, some draft picks, and the young point guard (already signed) they've been trying to find for years, sure makes a lot of sense.

Maybe the real holdup is that they want Hinrich, and he's Pax's guy.

It seems to me that's a distinct possibility.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Makes sense...and personally, I'd trade Hinrich, NY's pick & Brown for Gasol in a HEARTBEAT. I'm a big Hinrich fan but I'm an even BIGGER Deng fan.

I'd look to move Ben Wallace in the next two seasons and bring in his defensive resplacement, TT, to play the PF and move Gasol to C fulltime

G 
G Gordon
F Deng
F Thomas
C Gasol

Just hand us the trophy.


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## dogra (Nov 12, 2003)

The more I think of it the more sense it makes to me. 

Deng has never made much sense to me from Memphis' side because they have so many guys who can play at the three already. I mean, I guess they might consider Deng a future PF, but I'm not so sure about that.

I guess, if I'm right, a lot depends on how much Pax and Skiles believe in Thabo.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

Won't happen - Hinrich has pics of Skiles and Pax.

Hinrich is a very good team player and Pax values that above all else unfortunately.

Hinrich can be a leader for a long time and I think he's ahving an off year. Still, If we could keep Deng and Gordon and TT and Thabo.............That is a hell yeah from me.

It's such a shame we didn't grab Roy, then we'd not miss a beat with a trade of Hinrich or Gordon.

Still, we didn't so who goes?

Hinrich, Gordon or Deng? My preference of who stays - Deng, Gordon, Hinrich.

I won't be disappointed if we go to plan B - option like Ely, et all.........

Tough to be Pax right now..........

Remember pax, sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make.


Hinrich, Brown, 2008 1st rdr. for Gasol = nice


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## dogra (Nov 12, 2003)

chifaninca said:


> Tough to be Pax right now..........
> 
> Hinrich, Brown, 2008 1st rdr. for Gasol = nice


Agreed. Pax is kind of in a rough spot. The decision he makes might be his last major one in building this team. 

He must be going through hell trying to decide what move pushes us the closest to a title.

There's just no way of knowing at this stage. He'll have to make his best educated guess and roll the dice.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

truebluefan said:


> I can see a frontline of Deng Gasol and Wallace wreaking havoc in the nba.However, we will miss dearly Bens shooting from the outside! With gasol here and demanding the double team it will help Bens game even more! Hinrich and Duhon can hit the jumper as well. Thabo is still unproven, though he has his moments. And I would not want Griff to play meaningful minutes at the SG position. Losing Gordon will hurt us at the guard spot. No doubt. If deng is gone, Nocioni, Thabo griff and even TT can play that spot. But Damn...he is playing so well right now. Either way, I will hate to see either one of the leave, but Gasol fits our team so perfectly that we need to make this deal.


I think that's what we lose sight of sometimes. Gasol is the missing piece, the perfect fit for this team as it's currently constructed but in order to trade for him we'll be creating a hole of some sort. I guess you have to give Pax credit for roster construction because basically no two players are derivative of each other. 

The two most similar players on the roster are Noc and Deng because they are both starting calliber 3s - this is the best argument for trading Deng over Gordon in my opinion - but that's where the similarities end. Deng is a 21 year old slasher with star potential while Noc is 27, can come off the bench, and a lot of his success has come from his shooting ability. Noc probably fills in for Lu in the starting lineup pretty well in the short term assuming his health improves. You still create a sizeable hole in the short term however because the bench lacks scoring without Gordon or Noc. You may be creating an even bigger hole in the long term since you're parting with a 21 year old with star potential for a 26 year old (who is admittedly already) a star. Some valid concerns have been expressed about how long term of a solution Noc is at the three since he's entering his late 20s and seems to take a beating every night.

Virtually every team has holes. I think it's just important to remember that we'll still have holes even with Gasol because I think a lot of people have this notion that we'll be perfectly balanced if we add him and that's one reason acquiring him is so attractive. Trading Deng creates considerable holes in the short and long term and in some ways that's the player we're best equipped to replace. Even trading someone like Tyrus wouldn't create that big of a whole in the short term but may lead to a large one three years down the line when Big Ben is on his last legs.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

chifaninca said:


> Remember pax, sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make.


I think that's true to SOME extent.

We've known our weakness for ATLEAST two seasons (as well as the rest of the league, analysts & writers) and NOW we finally have the opprotunity to add a 20/10 caliber player who happens to be availible.

Truthfully, we are a mediocre ball-club. Winning against great teams every blue moon won't change that. We need to make a move for the type of player we want if we ever hope to become more than a 1st round and out team.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

chifaninca said:


> Hinrich can be a leader for a long time and I think he's ahving an off year.


It doesn't really impact your analysis much but I try to correct this when I see it because it seems like a common misconception: Kirk is almost certainly having not a down year but in fact his best season. His PER is the highest of any of his seasons. He's averaging a career best in scoring but most importantly his field goal percentage is way up. For a guy who had a reputation as a shooter, Kirk has shot rather poorly at times in the past and is having by far his best year shooting the ball. I realize he had that slump and his defense might have gotten off to a slow start but everyone should try to appreciate that he's playing even better than in the past when he was a fan and media darling.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

I still think it's a damn shame that Kirk can't give the team atleast 8 assists per game


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

JeremyB0001 said:


> It doesn't really impact your analysis much but I try to correct this when I see it because it seems like a common misconception: Kirk is almost certainly having not a down year but in fact his best season. His PER is the highest of any of his seasons. He's averaging a career best in scoring but most importantly his field goal percentage is way up. For a guy who had a reputation as a shooter, Kirk has shot rather poorly at times in the past and is having by far his best year shooting the ball. I realize he had that slump and his defense might have gotten off to a slow start but everyone should try to appreciate that he's playing even better than in the past when he was a fan and media darling.


Actually, it's kind of freaky how similar his stats have been over the past 3 seasons. The notable exception being that his FG and 3pt percentages are both up. But his ppg, apg, spg, and to's are almost identical and he's bringing his rpg back up to where it was, after a slow start.

Funny, he's probably been streakier this season than any other, but you wouldn't know it by looking at the aggregates.

just for reference: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3710


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

ViciousFlogging said:


> Actually, it's kind of freaky how similar his stats have been over the past 3 seasons. The notable exception being that his FG and 3pt percentages are both up. But his ppg, apg, spg, and to's are almost identical and he's bringing his rpg back up to where it was, after a slow start.
> 
> Funny, he's probably been streakier this season than any other, but you wouldn't know it by looking at the aggregates.
> 
> just for reference: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3710


Right. The inconsistency - similarly, the slump which I mentioned - have obscured his shooting a lot. That makes it hard sometimes to appreciate how much better he's shooting the ball by just watching the games. He's had a lot of 7 for 15 or so nights though which was pretty rare for him in the past. Sometimes it's easy to overlook but that uptick in his shooting makes him significantly more valuable.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

The ROY said:


> I still think it's a damn shame that Kirk can't give the team atleast 8 assists per game


It'd be nice but it's harder than people think. There are only six guys in the NBA over that mark right now and Kirk's passing is limited some by the fact that he looks for his shot and how often Duhon handles the ball. 

Also, I'm more and more convinced that all assists are not created equal. Kirk's seem to come within the flow of the offense which make them more valuable in my opinion. I was quite unimpressed by DWade's "passing skills" the last time we played the Heat. On every possession down the stretch he was isolated on one side of the court and would drive and then kick the ball out to someone else who wasn't even that open most of the time but would still jack up a shot. If you're the last guy to touch the ball before 80% of the shots taken by your teammates you'll rack up a lot of assists even without making deft passes. It's a lot harder to come up with big assist totals on a team like the Bulls with solid ball movement.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

It makes most sense to trade Deng imo out of the three. We have Nocioni, Khryapa, Thomas, and Thabo. We'll be fine, Nocioni isn't even a very big downgrade from Deng. Duhon from Gordon or Kirk is though.

Ben's scoring has pretty much won us most of our games the last few years, so why trade it?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Hanley (suntimes beat writer talking on THE SCORE):
"Deng, Nocioni, Knicks pick. That combination just ain't gonna fly up at the Berto Center"


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> Hanley (suntimes beat writer talking on THE SCORE):
> "Deng, Nocioni, Knicks pick. That combination just ain't gonna fly up at the Berto Center"


As an advocate of trading for Gasol, even I wouldn't do that.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Hanley (suntimes beat writer talking on THE SCORE):
> "Deng, Nocioni, Knicks pick. That combination just ain't gonna fly up at the Berto Center"


I don't think anyone will give West that much. I think we will be able to talk him down.

Why does he want two small forwards when he already has Gay? 

If push came to shove, I'd think about giving up Deng and next year's pick, but of course I'd prefer an 08 or 09 pick.

I still would love to send out a lineup of Hinrich, Gordon, Noch/Deng, Gasol, and Wallace. Look out, East.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Hanley (suntimes beat writer talking on THE SCORE):
> "Deng, Nocioni, Knicks pick. That combination just ain't gonna fly up at the Berto Center"


Thabo for Nocioni and it will be done.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Hanley: One of the core (Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, Nocioni), the pick and PJ Brown? Now we're talking. Now we have something to work with.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> Thabo for Nocioni and it will be done.


Nah. Thabo for Deng. Or just pull Noch out of the deal and put top-3 protection on the pick.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Hanley (suntimes beat writer talking on THE SCORE):
> "Deng, Nocioni, Knicks pick. That combination just ain't gonna fly up at the Berto Center"


What was the context of that response? Was someone suggesting that was the current asking price or was someone just throwing that out there?

I agree for sure that deal wouldn't fly at Berto!


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

from the Greg Couch article:



> I'd give Gordon because Deng is already on the verge of becoming a star. Gordon has turned into something big this season, too. But you have to give up something for Gasol.




_i completely agree._ deng is special and will continue to get, um, more special. :biggrin:

i honestly don't think gordon is ever going to regain that lustre of 4th quarter finisher/6th man specialness. i look at the way he reacted to getting snubbed for the all-star game and think, wow, man, get over yourself. i think he's really overrated on this board. that's not to say he doesn't possess a unique talent. he does. but it's either on or off. 

if i'm pax, i place a *greater value* on players who have more of an all-around game and with that in mind, i think the bulls have to keep deng (and hinrich, of course).

just my 2 cents.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Hanley (suntimes beat writer talking on THE SCORE):
> "Deng, Nocioni, Knicks pick. That combination just ain't gonna fly up at the Berto Center"


How do you feel about that K4E?


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

MemphisX said:


> Thabo for Nocioni and it will be done.


I don't think I'd do that either. 

It seems to me that Deng (or Gordon or Hinrich) plus PJ's expiring deal, plus the Knicks' pick (or Thabo) - or a trade of different parts but essentially the same value - is more than fair. 

Proven young and rising star on a rookie contract, a lottery pick in a good draft, and $9 million in additional capspace for free agents is a damn fine return on a player who has asked to be traded. 

Memphis, I agree with many of your posts that point out the laughable "value" that most of my fellow Bulls fans seem to place on Gasol. But you too need to be realistic about his value under the circumstances.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> What was the context of that response? Was someone suggesting that was the current asking price


THe context was that the current asking price is too high for Paxson.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

mizenkay said:


> from the Greg Couch article:
> 
> _i completely agree._ deng is special and will continue to get, um, more special. :biggrin:
> 
> ...


I disagree, I'm not gonna take a guy like Jalen Rose (in his prime) over a clutch player like Michael Redd just becasue Jalen had a better 'all-around' game.

Clutch players win championships


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

johnston797 said:


> Nah. Thabo for Deng. Or just pull Noch out of the deal and put top-3 protection on the pick.


Can't protect the pick


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> How do you feel about that K4E?


That's a lot to give up. 

I'd still consider doing it, since I'm concerned about Nocioni's long term durability and the Knicks pick is likely not going to be one of the top ones (therefore, odds of a top, young PF/C are decreased). In the end, Nocioni is a solid player, but a role player. The Knicks pick is likely going to be a solid swingman. Deng is the guy that is tough to project out. A good discussion I heard on the radio yesterday was …. Yes, Deng is young. But what will he improve at over time? Will he be able to jump higher? No. Create his own shot better? Handle the ball better? Hard to say. He is already a great shooter. He's already great at collecting the ball while moving and doing something positive. How much room for improvement is there? Perhaps when(if?) he bulks up w/ age he can be an effective post player? I don't know.

Can we “win now” with Hinrich, Gordon, Khryapa (maybe Warrick?), Gasol, Wallace? 
Does that lineup give us a better chance than Hinrich/Gordon/Deng/Nocioni/Wallace? 

I’d say the Gasol lineup is an improvement, but not a slam dunk to get out of the East.

So, then it shifts to would you rather win later with Hinrich,Gordon,Gasol,TT, declining Wallace and Thabo or Hinrich,Gordon,Deng,Nocioni,TT,Thabo, Knicks pick (likely not a big guy) and declining Wallace.

That latter group has more quality players, but the need for a top PF/C will likely still be there… and likely be worse with a declining Wallace. I like the “win later” chances more with the Gasol core.

“Win Now” looks better and “Win Later” looks better. Sure, we can hold out for a “better” consolidation trade, but who could possibly become available that would be a better fit than Gasol and would we be able to land him?

I usually have very strong opinions about the Chicago Bulls (  ) but on this one I don’t. It’s a tough one.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> It makes most sense to trade Deng imo out of the three. We have Nocioni, Khryapa, Thomas, and Thabo. We'll be fine, Nocioni isn't even a very big downgrade from Deng. Duhon from Gordon or Kirk is though.
> 
> Ben's scoring has pretty much won us most of our games the last few years, so why trade it?


Trading a 21 year old based mostly on the current construction of the roster is way too win now for me. We still have a very young team so I think you have to place a lot of emphasis on how much you like the player in general and how you see them developing in the future.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> Hanley: One of the core (Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, Nocioni), the pick and PJ Brown? Now we're talking. Now we have something to work with.


I'd do Noc and the pick and maybe Kirk and the pick.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> THe context was that the current asking price is too high for Paxson.


Wow. If the suggestion was that Deng, Noc + Pick (plus PJ expiring, of course) is the actual current asking price by West, then it is, IMO, indeed too high. Losing both Deng AND Nocioni _really_ leaves a deep hole at the 3 that TT is just not ready yet to step in and fill. Plus that Knicks pick, even if it isn't the Durant/Odem Golden Ticket, is still damn valuable.

I think if this is going to get done (and I still hope it does) Jerry is going to still have to come down to Earth a little more.


EDIT: I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but K4E, you make some great points in your "win now" "win later" analysis. Lots of food for thought there. You're right -- there are so many unknowns with projecting this one out, its a tough nut to crack.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Wow. If the suggestion was that Deng, Noc + Pick (plus PJ expiring, of course) is the actual current asking price by West, then it is, IMO, indeed too high. Losing both Deng AND Nocioni _really_ leaves a deep hole at the 3 that TT is just not ready yet to step in and fill. Plus that Knicks pick, even if it isn't the Durant/Odem Golden Ticket, is still damn valuable.
> 
> I think if this is going to get done (and I still hope it does) Jerry is going to still have to come down to Earth a little more.


If we did that deal, we'd surely get Warrick back. No gaping hole at the #3.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> It seems to me that Deng (or Gordon or Hinrich) plus PJ's expiring deal, plus the Knicks' pick (or Thabo) - or a trade of different parts but essentially the same value - is more than fair.


This is another instance where I wonder if the NY pick is being undervalued. I like Thabo an awful lot but he was taken 13th in a below average draft. The NY pick on the other hand figures to be at least 13th and probably a bit higher in what people are calling the best draft in years (some even think we can get a player of Tyrus' calliber in the late lottery). If I had a deal I considered reasonable, let's say one of the Big Three and P.J., Thabo is an asset I might be pressured into including to get a deal done. It would be far more difficult if not impossible to get me to include the NY pick into a deal where I already thought I was giving up fair value.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> If we did that deal, we'd surely get Warrick back. No gaping hole at the #3.


Well, that wasn't said...but you're probably right. I have mixed feelings about Warrick though. Athletic. Dice dunks. Rest of game...kind of a question mark as far as I can tell.

Its possible I haven't watched him closely enough, though.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

The ROY said:


> I disagree, I'm not gonna take a guy like Jalen Rose (in his prime) over a clutch player like Michael Redd just becasue Jalen had a better 'all-around' game.
> 
> Clutch players win championships


Would you take Michael Redd over Scottie or Grant Hill in their prime?



The ROY said:


> Can't protect the pick


I'm 98% sure this is just misinformation from Sam Smith.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> If the suggestion was that Deng, Noc + Pick (plus PJ expiring, of course) is the actual current asking price by West, then it is, IMO, indeed too high.


That was the context. He didn't come out and say that's what West was asking, but he did say the package of Deng,Nocioni and pick was not going to fly at Berto. Whether Hanley made that package up or he heard that was the package being discussed I don't know. 

We’d likely have Khryapa and Warrick with a dash of TT at the 3 if we did that deal.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> A good discussion I heard on the radio yesterday was …. Yes, Deng is young. But what will he improve at over time? Will he be able to jump higher? No. Create his own shot better? Handle the ball better? Hard to say. He is already a great shooter. He's already great at collecting the ball while moving and doing something positive. How much room for improvement is there? Perhaps when(if?) he bulks up w/ age he can be an effective post player? I don't know.


As much as I like Deng, who's having a monster season, I don't think he's going to improve much more. It's not impossible for a player to peak, statistically, at 21. Lebron James likely had the best statistical season he's ever going to have last year, for example. 

If you buy that we have a capable backup in Nocioni, that SF is by far the easiest position to fill, and that Memphis isn't going to trade away Gasol for trash, it makes sense that Deng should be moved. Even if you think he's a better player than Hinrich or Gordon.

edit: Deng + Nocioni + pick is way too much. I think including the pick with Deng is pushing it, given Deng's current level of play.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> If we did that deal, we'd surely get Warrick back. No gaping hole at the #3.


I hear Warrick's name thrown around the board a lot but I've never seen it in the media anywhere despite tons of speculation about a Bulls-Memphis deal. His inclusion in a deal would make a major difference in what I'd be willing to give up so I wonder if he's available at all. The Grizzlies might think he has a future at the 4, meaning he'd be off the table since he's young and they're attempting to rebuild.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> This is another instance where I wonder if the NY pick is being undervalued. I like Thabo an awful lot but he was taken 13th in a below average draft. The NY pick on the other hand figures to be at least 13th and probably a bit higher in what people are calling the best draft in years (some even think we can get a player of Tyrus' calliber in the late lottery). If I had a deal I considered reasonable, let's say one of the Big Three and P.J., Thabo is an asset I might be pressured into including to get a deal done. It would be far more difficult if not impossible to get me to include the NY pick into a deal where I already thought I was giving up fair value.


For the sake of discussion, here is nbadraft.net's projected top 15 prospects for next year's draft. If the draft was to occur today, it would be likely the Bulls would have a mid-lottery pick via the Knicks pick (nbadraft has the pick at #9, but of course its up to the ping pong balls). There certainly is some big man talent likely to be still on the board after Oden, durant and Noah are gone. McRobers could drop. Yi Jainling may still be there. Gray. Thabeet. Splitter -- we talked about him last year. Smith. Maybe some of the mid-Lotto bigs available will be game changers. Maybe not. Frankly haven't seen enough of them.


K4E might be right though and depending on exactly where we pick, a swingman may very well be the BPA -- which would be a disaster for us if the Gasol trade doesn't go down and would be a pretty good compensation if we "overpay" by giving up our 3s for Pau.

1. Greg Oden 7-0 250 C Ohio St. Fr. .
2. Kevin Durant 6-10 220 SF Texas Fr. 
3. Brandan Wright 6-10 210 PF UNC Fr. 
4. Joakim Noah 6-11 230 PF Florida Jr. 
5. Al Horford 6-9 245 PF Florida Jr. 
6. Julian Wright 6-8 225 SF Kansas So. 
7. Yi Jianlian 7-0 230 PF China 1987 
8. Thaddeus Young 6-8 217 SF GT Fr. 
9. Chase Budinger 6-7 190 SG Arizona Fr. 
10. Jeff Green 6-8 235 SF Georgetown Jr. 
11. Al Thornton 6-8 220 SF/PF Florida St. Sr. 
12. Hasheem Thabeet 7-3 265 C UConn Fr. 
13. Corey Brewer 6-8 185 SF Florida Jr. 
14. Aaron Gray 7-1 280 C Pittsburgh Sr. 
15. Arron Afflalo 6-5 215 SG UCLA Jr.


Draft Express has

1. Kevin Durant 6-10 220 SF Texas Fr. 
2. Greg Oden 7-0 250 C Ohio St. Fr.
3. Joakim Noah 6-11 230 PF Florida Jr. 
4. Brandan Wright 6-10 210 PF UNC Fr. 
5. Julian Wright 6-8 225 SF Kansas So. 
6. Josh McRoberts, 6-10 240 PF Duke So.
7. Al Horford 6-9 245 PF Florida Jr. 
8. Tiago Splitter, 6-11 240 PF TAU
9. Corey Brewer 6-8 185 SF Florida Jr. 
10. Dominick James, 5-11 180 PG Marquette So.
11. Yi Jianlian 7-0 230 PF China 1987 
12. Marcus Williams, 6-7 207 SG Arizona So
13. Jason Smith, 7-0 240 PF Colorado State Jr.
14. Aaron Gray 7-1 280 C Pittsburgh Sr.
15. Tyler Hansborough, 6-8 245 PF North Carolina So.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> If we did that deal, we'd surely get Warrick back. No gaping hole at the #3.


I see Warrick as more of a 4 who can guard some 3s. His offense is mainly on the interior out to maybe 15-18 feet. And he only seems to get starters' minutes when Pau is out of the lineup. Maybe a Warrick/Crapper combo at the 3 would be serviceable for this season, but it's far from ideal.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I hear Warrick's name thrown around the board a lot but I've never seen it in the media anywhere despite tons of speculation about a Bulls-Memphis deal. His inclusion in a deal would make a major difference in what I'd be willing to give up so I wonder if he's available at all. The Grizzlies might think he has a future at the 4, meaning he'd be off the table since he's young and they're attempting to rebuild.


West said he'd be willing to include Warrick in the deal in the very first article. So I'd say it's been a "gimme" since day 1 in these proceedings.

In reading through this thread, I see Boerwinkle rehashing the trades past and Cey misrepresenting (mine, at least) the "anti-pax" crowd's position on those trades. Though Cey is absolutely right that it's not a bad thing to overpay for a player who fits the team's needs and puts you over the top.

McBulls gets it, though. You see, in a Gasol deal where we give up 1 or 2 core guys, we get back an awesome player. In those other deals, we got back spit. What's the point in having assets if you're going to trade them away for a JYD+AD package? Yeesh.

As MikeDC has pointed out numerous times, we could have kept Curry and Chandler and still signed Wallace. This is the perfect example of why "addition by subtraction" is foolish (and an indefensible position). We wouldn't be talking about a gaping hole at the 5, that's for sure.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> I see Warrick as more of a 4 who can guard some 3s. His offense is mainly on the interior out to maybe 15-18 feet. And he only seems to get starters' minutes when Pau is out of the lineup.  Maybe a Warrick/Crapper combo at the 3 would be serviceable for this season, but it's far from ideal.


Warrick:
 <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="ysptblthbody1" align="right" height="18"><td class="yspdetailttl" align="left">Year</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" align="left">Team</td> <td class="yspdetailttl">G </td> <td class="yspdetailttl">Min </td> <td class="yspdetailttl">M</td><td class="yspdetailttl">A</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Pct</td><td> 
</td><td class="yspdetailttl">M</td><td class="yspdetailttl">A</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Pct</td><td> 
</td><td class="yspdetailttl">M</td><td class="yspdetailttl">A</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Pct</td><td> 
</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Off</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Def</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Tot</td><td> 
</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Ast</td><td class="yspdetailttl">TO</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Stl</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Blk</td><td class="yspdetailttl">PF</td><td class="yspdetailttl">PPG</td><td> 
</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right" height="16"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 2006-07</td><td class="yspscores" align="left">MEM</td><td class="yspscores">52</td><td class="yspscores">24:53 </td><td class="yspscores">4.4</td><td class="yspscores">8.5</td><td class="yspscores">52.1</td><td> 
</td><td class="yspscores">0.0</td><td class="yspscores">0.1</td><td class="yspscores">0.0</td><td> 
</td><td class="yspscores">3.4</td><td class="yspscores">4.4</td><td class="yspscores">77.5</td><td> 
</td><td class="yspscores">1.5</td><td class="yspscores">2.8</td><td class="yspscores">4.3</td><td> 
</td><td class="yspscores">1.0</td><td class="yspscores">1.9</td><td class="yspscores">0.5</td><td class="yspscores">0.4</td><td class="yspscores">2.7</td><td class="yspscores">12.3</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right" height="16"><td colspan="2" align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>Deng:
 <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="ysptblthbody1" align="right" height="18"><td class="yspdetailttl" align="left">Year</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" align="left">Team</td> <td class="yspdetailttl">G </td> <td class="yspdetailttl">Min </td> <td class="yspdetailttl">M</td><td class="yspdetailttl">A</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Pct</td><td> 
</td><td class="yspdetailttl">M</td><td class="yspdetailttl">A</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Pct</td><td> 
</td><td class="yspdetailttl">M</td><td class="yspdetailttl">A</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Pct</td><td> 
</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Off</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Def</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Tot</td><td> 
</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Ast</td><td class="yspdetailttl">TO</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Stl</td><td class="yspdetailttl">Blk</td><td class="yspdetailttl">PF</td><td class="yspdetailttl">PPG</td><td> 
</td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right" height="16"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 2006-07</td><td class="yspscores" align="left">CHI</td><td class="yspscores">52</td><td class="yspscores">36:53 </td><td class="yspscores">7.3</td><td class="yspscores">14.0</td><td class="yspscores">52.2</td><td> 
</td><td class="yspscores">0.0</td><td class="yspscores">0.1</td><td class="yspscores">33.3</td><td> 
</td><td class="yspscores">3.7</td><td class="yspscores">4.9</td><td class="yspscores">75.6</td><td> 
</td><td class="yspscores">1.8</td><td class="yspscores">5.4</td><td class="yspscores">7.2</td><td> 
</td><td class="yspscores">2.2</td><td class="yspscores">1.9</td><td class="yspscores">1.2</td><td class="yspscores">0.6</td><td class="yspscores">2.0</td><td class="yspscores">18.4</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right" height="16"><td colspan="2" align="left">
</td></tr></tbody></table>


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

And that proves he's a 3....how?


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

Thabo could project as a future 3. He's got a 7'2" wingspan and is already one of our better rebounders. He pulled down 7 boards a game overseas. During the Raptors draft video on youtube, Colangelo said he projected Thabo (and Tyrus for that matter) as a future 3. 

A lot of you are sleeping on Warrick. The kid is good. If we got him as well as Gasol it wouldn't be the end of the world at SF... Warrick, Viktor, Thabo, Tyrus, Griff. Not as good as Deng/Noch, but decent in the short-run (Viktor, Griff) and potentially very good in the future (Tyrus, Warrick, Thabo).

I'd still do Deng + Nocioni, but MINUS the Knicks pick. Deng + Nocioni + PJ's expiring is already enough. Give them our 1st rounder in 2008 if needed, but that's as far as I'd go if I'm dealing Deng & Noch.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> And that proves he's a 3....how?


His position on every WWW site I've looked him up on is F, not SF, not PF, not PF/C.

Deng is listed at 6'9" 220lbs.
Warrick is listed at 6'9" 219lbs.

Do I think he's the same player as Deng? no way. Do I think he can replace much of Deng's production? No problem.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> As MikeDC has pointed out numerous times, we could have kept Curry and Chandler and still signed Wallace. This is the perfect example of why "addition by subtraction" is foolish (and an indefensible position). We wouldn't be talking about a gaping hole at the 5, that's for sure.


Or maybe we would. We don't know what they would be doing if they were still Bulls.

Thats always the problem with woulda shoulda coulda.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> His position on every WWW site I've looked him up on is F, not SF, not PF, not PF/C.
> 
> Deng is listed at 6'9" 220lbs.
> Warrick is listed at 6'9" 219lbs.
> ...


Like I said, a 4 who can guard some 3s. He does produce when he gets minutes and he's a very good athlete. I like him. But he does his damage in a far different way than Deng, one that overlaps with Pau (mostly interior/post-up - not off cuts and drives) - which is why he doesn't get consistent minutes when Pau is in the lineup. So, I don't think he'd step in and emulate Deng's performance.

Anyway, it's a pretty minor point to quibble about. Heck, a lineup of Gasol/Warrick/Thabo/Gordon/Kirk looks OK to me offensively.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I'd probably do Deng, Noc, and the 08 pick but not the 07 pick.

I'm fairly comfortable with a mix of VK, Thabo, Griffin and TT at the 3. The Bulls gave up significant value to get both Griffin, VK and Thabo. You've got to figure they, at least, would feel comfortble with them. Either one of them steps up and does most of what we need, or they each bring their respective specialties to the table. With some luck, we can make a run with them.

The 07 pick has to stay though.. For a couple reasons. First, in case those guys don't work out, we need to get a replacement in the pipeline ASAP, learning the system and playing with our other players. We couldn't afford to wait until 08 to begin that development. Second, the pick will be higher this year than in 08. Third, the 07 draft looks especially deep and there looks to be good SF options that will be available when we pick. We don't know what the hell will happen in 08.

If Deng and Noc both go, however, it's probably also important to keep Brown for the playoffs As the 3rd big, Brown's actually a good fit and an obvious upgrade to Sweetney, Allen, or Tyrus (unless the latter miraculously gains 3 years of experience in the next 3 months).

So does anyone think the 07 pick vs the 08 pick would be a deal breaker?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Or maybe we would. We don't know what they would be doing if they were still Bulls.
> 
> Thats always the problem with woulda shoulda coulda.


The flipside of the question is no matter how many wins we get this year, would we have won more with those other guys also on the roster? And the answer seems to be obviously yes.

Or better put, would we have more confidence about being able to win playoff series' ?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> Like I said, a 4 who can guard some 3s. He does produce when he gets minutes and he's a very good athlete. I like him. But he does his damage in a far different way than Deng, one that overlaps with Pau (mostly interior/post-up - not off cuts and drives) - which is why he doesn't get consistent minutes when Pau is in the lineup. So, I don't think he'd step in and emulate Deng's performance.
> 
> Anyway, it's a pretty minor point to quibble about. Heck, a lineup of Gasol/Warrick/Thabo/Gordon/Kirk looks OK to me offensively.


Seems to me the lineup would be:
Gasol, Wallace, Warrick, Gordon, Hinrich

With Thabo, VK, and I guess Thomas filling in the minutes at bakup SF.

We'd be 7'1, 6'9, 6'9 in the front court, which would make us a pretty big team.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> I'd probably do Deng, Noc, and the 08 pick but not the 07 pick.
> 
> I'm fairly comfortable with a mix of VK, Thabo, Griffin and TT at the 3. The Bulls gave up significant value to get both Griffin, VK and Thabo. You've got to figure they, at least, would feel comfortble with them. Either one of them steps up and does most of what we need, or they each bring their respective specialties to the table. With some luck, we can make a run with them.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of this. 

I'm comfortable with Khryapa/Warrick/Thabo/Griffin at the 3 in the short term. 

The 07 pick is a deal breaker if we are including Deng or Gordon.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> The flipside of the question is no matter how many wins we get this year, would we have won more with those other guys also on the roster? And the answer seems to be obviously yes.


Once again, I say the answer is not so "obviously" yes.

They have more of a history of playing on losing teams with us than they do of playing on winning teams. We are now a winning team despite their loss and each continues to play for losing teams. Despite some impressive individual performances, their teams are not winning.

Sure there are other factors involved in our team winning and their team losing besides the addition and subtraction, but I still think there is a huge sense of grass is always greener syndrome when we play that "if they were only still here" game.

Or we'd be steamrolling through the season on a pace rivaling the 72 win team. Can't say.

Que sera sera.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> So does anyone think the 07 pick vs the 08 pick would be a deal breaker?


Absolutely -- our 08 pick is essentially worthless. 

I'm not going to mind-read and say that West is holding out for the 07 per se, but if Pax's intent is to substitute the 08 pick for an actual asset that West wants -- TT, the 07 pick, Thabo (although that's a stretch) -- I could see it leading to West telling Pax to pound sand.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> Seems to me the lineup would be:
> Gasol, Wallace, Warrick, Gordon, Hinrich
> 
> With Thabo, VK, and I guess Thomas filling in the minutes at bakup SF.
> ...


I wasn't speculating on the starting lineup - just a lineup I thought would score a ton of points. Obviously Wallace starts. I just don't know whether Gasol and Warrick generally would be a good pairing, particularly if Warrick is at the 3. Maybe we'll get a chance to find out.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> I wasn't speculating on the starting lineup - just a lineup I thought would score a ton of points. Obviously Wallace starts. I just don't know whether Gasol and Warrick generally would be a good pairing, particularly if Warrick is at the 3. Maybe we'll get a chance to find out.


In that lineup, Gasol would to some extent play the 3 on offense and the 5 on defense. Wallace plays the 5 on offense and 4 on defense and Warrick is the offensive 4 and defensive 3.

Don't know how ideal that is either


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> Absolutely -- our 08 pick is essentially worthless.
> 
> I'm not going to mind-read and say that West is holding out for the 07 per se, but if Pax's intent is to substitute the 08 pick for an actual asset that West wants -- TT, the 07 pick, Thabo (although that's a stretch) -- I could see it leading to West telling Pax to pound sand.


Agreed. If the '08 pick ultimately is included is part of a deal, it will be as a last minute "throw in" to hopefully tip a deal that is on the fence. It will never be a piece considered to be a target acquisition or a key component of any deal.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

MikeDC said:


> I'd probably do Deng, Noc, and the 08 pick but not the 07 pick.
> 
> So does anyone think the 07 pick vs the 08 pick would be a deal breaker?


The '08 pick is not the deal breaker. Including both Nocioni and Deng is.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> A good discussion I heard on the radio yesterday was …. Yes, Deng is young. But what will he improve at over time? Will he be able to jump higher? No. Create his own shot better? Handle the ball better? Hard to say. He is already a great shooter. He's already great at collecting the ball while moving and doing something positive. How much room for improvement is there? Perhaps when(if?) he bulks up w/ age he can be an effective post player? I don't know.


Theoretically NBA players pretty much never improve their athleticism after they enter the league but they do almost always improve between their rookie season and their peak (ages 26-29 let's say). I don't think you can assume that a 21 year old player (especially one with a tremendous work ethic) will be unable to improve his skills in area except perhaps as you hinted, a skill at which the player is already amongst the best in the league. 

That said, personally I think Deng is most likely to improve in two areas 1) long range shooting 2) more aggressive play on offense. He has a very fluid shooting stroke that makes me think that with some work he wouldn't have any trouble extending his jumper out to the arc. That would open up his game a lot by making him that much more difficult to guard on the drive. I'm on record as saying that I find the obsession with "creating your own shot" to be a little bit much. Lu only shoots 12 shots per game and I disagree that that is primarily a result of limitations in his offensive game. If he starts to look for his shot a little bit more in the future his scoring will go up. With those two improvements I think he has the potential to reach 25 PPG which would make him more valuable in reality as well as in the eyes of the fans and media. He still has a looooong time before he reaches his prime.



rwj333 said:


> As much as I like Deng, who's having a monster season, I don't think he's going to improve much more. It's not impossible for a player to peak, statistically, at 21. Lebron James likely had the best statistical season he's ever going to have last year, for example.


I agree that it's not impossible but I think it's extremely unlikely. FWIW, you have to be one of the only people in the country that think LeBron has already had his best season.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> His position on every WWW site I've looked him up on is F, not SF, not PF, not PF/C.
> 
> Deng is listed at 6'9" 220lbs.
> Warrick is listed at 6'9" 219lbs.
> ...


I wanted to use this post to follow through with my previous point that you shouldn't allow the current construction of your roster to dictate your moves with a team this young who no one exects to win a Championship this season with or without Gasol. I value Warrick highly but I don't think getting him a deal is a reason to trade necessarily. If you were to trade Gordon instead you can always draft Budinger or deal Warrick or Noc for another two. I just think that you worry about roster construction when you need to worry about winning in the short term and try not to pay all that much attention to position as far as your very best players go with a team this young.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

OK, to put it another way, I think Deng, Noc, and the 07 pick are all fairly solid assets. 2 assets plus cap space and a lesser asset like a future (08) pick seems legit return for Memphis while still leaving us a venue to fill the holes we create. Including all three top flight assets to fill that position seems like something we might not recover from.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> If we did that deal, we'd surely get Warrick back. No gaping hole at the #3.


Hakim Warrick is not a small forward by any stretch of the imagination. Zero handle. Bad shot.

One of the worst defenders in the league at either the 3, 4 or 5, so I guess that doesn't matter much.

What he's good at is 1) cutting to the basket, catching a pass and dunking on some unsuspecting defender; and 2) drawing fouls around the rim and getting to the line, where he shoots a relatively-high percentage.

What he can't do is guard anything that moves or muscle up in the post against bigger players - he simply can't do the latter. He also can't dribble the ball or do anything remotely close to penetrate to the basket. If you're asking him to put the ball on the floor, you're asking too much. What he doesn't do is pass the ball. Size is his tragic flaw. If he was 6'10 or 6'11 and added about 20-30 pounds, he'd have been drafted probably around where Brandan Wright is going to be drafted. Warrick's a true tweener - he's a four through and through, but he's even smaller than some threes. And unlike some of the burly, "undersized" power forwards in the league like Paul Millsap or Ryan Gomes, Warrick gives up a ton of weight as well.

I'd imagine Dahntay Jones would be more likely in that scenario. Even though he's SG-sized, he at least has some of the pre-req's for the position.


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## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! (Jun 10, 2003)

When I think of Lou and "potential for improvement" as a 3, the logical comparison to make is with another former Dukie, Mr. Elton Brand at the 4. These are the sort of players that can easily be taken for granted, i.e., you don't know what you got 'til it's gone.

Thankfully, Gasol has proven his potential already, unlike Tyson, who took about 5 years to grow into the NBA.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Rawse said:


> Hakim Warrick is not a small forward by any stretch of the imagination. Zero handle. Bad shot.
> 
> One of the worst defenders in the league at either the 3, 4 or 5, so I guess that doesn't matter much.
> 
> ...


Oh, in other words, a perfect fit in the Bulls system! :lol:


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> Thabo for Nocioni and it will be done.


Yeah. I can't imagine any reason why the Memphis would wamt Noc given the fact that salary cutting appears to be at least one of their motivations. The Bulls will keep Noc in any deal that eventually comes about.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> Yeah. I can't imagine any reason why the Memphis would wamt Noc given the fact that salary cutting appears to be at least one of their motivations. The Bulls will keep Noc in any deal that eventually comes about.


Noc is an expiring contract.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Noc is an expiring contract.


That's my point. He has a lot of value to the Bulls and almost none to Memphis becuase they are not going to re-sign him. I'm sure Memphis would much rather have Thabo or a 2008 pick even though objectively, I think they would have better value.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Pau Gasol isn't the right player. This isn't a win now team. I think our top priority should be moving Ben Wallace.

I'd do

Bulls Trade:

Ben Wallace

Mavericks Trade:

Jerry Stackhouse
Austin Croshere
2008 Draft Pick

That would put us at about 40-42 million (after drafting and resigning Noc), thus giving us quite a bit of capspace. Using the capspace plus draftpicks, we could build up our frontcourt.

Now say the cap is at around 55 million. We'll have say 13 million dollars. I say we make a hard go after Darko Milicic. Then draft Thabeet. 

So we'd have a core of

Kirk Hinrich
Ben Gordon
Thabo Sefolosha
Luol Deng
Andres Nocioni
Tyrus Thomas
Darko Milicic
Hasheem Thabeet (or Oden or Durant or Wright if we get that high)


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Darko doesn't strike me as a serious risk to give big money to.

Gasol would still be a long-term piece of the puzzle. He's also a win later player. Obviously it's not going to happen, but I'd try to trade Wallace in a 3 way to get Gasol.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

How about Thomas, Nocioni, Brown & NY's pick for Gasol?

Sorry, but I don't think we can trade Luol Deng. That guy is becoming oustanding and he clearly doesn't want to be traded

G Hinrich
G Gordon
F Deng / Khyrapa
F Gasol
C Wallace


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

Memphis could take Nocioni for the purpose of trading him to another team. He could easily net them an expiring + picks. His value around the league is higher than Thabo or our 2008 pick. He is just another asset for which Memphis can use to get what they want.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

SALO said:


> Memphis could take Nocioni for the purpose of trading him to another team. He could easily net them an expiring + picks. His value around the league is higher than Thabo or our 2008 pick. He is just another asset for which Memphis can use to get what they want.


BINGO


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

SALO said:


> Memphis could take Nocioni for the purpose of trading him to another team. He could easily net them an expiring + picks. His value around the league is higher than Thabo or our 2008 pick. He is just another asset for which Memphis can use to get what they want.


This is a fantasy world.

The best player Memphis gets back is a pretty good role-player-off-the-bench-type who's due for an inflated contract in a couple months and then just tell the Grizz to flip him for something of true value to us before the trade deadline expires in a matter of a week?

Gee, thanks.

Deng/Gordon, Thabo + draft pick or Gasol's going to stay in a Memphis jersey. Which is great by me.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Rawse said:


> Deng/Gordon, Thabo + draft pick or Gasol's going to stay in a Memphis jersey. Which is great by me.


I still don't understand why Gasol is on the market if keeping him is a legit option. Why wouldn't you pull him off the market when it became clear you weren't going to receive your desired price of Deng and Gordon? Why aren't other players of Gasol's calliber on the trading block? No one ever answers these questions. I think the evidence is pretty clear that Memphis is highly motivated if not downright determined to move Gasol by the deadline or at the latest during the offseason.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-070214



> Right now, the biggest present out there is Pau Gasol.
> 
> The biggest suitor out there is Chicago. If I'm the Bulls, I'd do a deal. It could include Ben Gordon, Andres Nocioni and a draft pick. Or sub in Luol Deng or Kirk Hinrich. The question the Bulls would be asking themselves is if they want to break up their current combinations. But if you want to make a run in the playoffs, getting the Grizzlies' center would install them as the team to beat in the East.
> 
> ...


I posted the article before reading it. I just quoted the part that dealt with the Bulls.

I'm a believer of Deng and Gordon. I really don't want to see either go. But, I do think it will be to our benefit to trade one of them (Deng is my choice) if we have to. By that I mean an offer such as Deng and PJ (and 2008 if absolutely needed) can make the deal work. I think SF can be held in check for now by Noce, and we can use the NYK pick to hopefully land a solid young prospect. A guy who comes to my mind is Corey Brewer/Julian Wright.

I would hate to see Deng go, but I do not think we have a shot to add a legit post scorer anytime after this. Cap room will be gone. Our future draft picks won't be as high.

Honestly, this deal comes down to one thing, how desperate is Memphis in getting rid of salary and Pau's attitude toward leaving. If they know they have to move him, no matter what, we will get him at a very fair/favorable price. If they are in no rush to trading him, we might not get him.

With Hanley's article, I do feel that although Pax loves Deng, he may be setting it up to the fans that it would be hard to see Deng leave. I don't know. No one can read Pax's mind. I do know, he is probably up all day and night wishing he could see into the future and realize if he will make the right choice. I don't blame him if we don't make the trade. I do think it is a somewhat of a risk for getting Gasol. Not for losing Deng, but Gasol's presence impacting our D. 

I don't want to lose Tyrus either, but for the sake of keeping Deng, I will give up Tyrus, and possibly Thabo with PJ to lure Gasol. I like Tyrus and see great potential and glimpses of him fulfilling it, but this is Pau Gasol. Tyrus may never have his impact.

I have to think, the Grizz could accept a last second offer of the two rooks and PJ. Maybe we can offer them this: PJ, Sweets, Thabo, and 2007.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

I like Gasol alot but after Deng's recent 'please-don't-trade-me' play, I'd rather not.

Ben Gordon is also an absolute monster when he wants to be.

No thanks then...


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

The ROY said:


> I like Gasol alot but after Deng's recent 'please-don't-trade-me' play, I'd rather not.
> 
> Ben Gordon is also an absolute monster when he wants to be.
> 
> No thanks then...


I am indifferent toward the trade. The Grizz can't lose either way IMO. Does Gasol make the Bulls a contender in the East? I am not sure, however, I know as is, the Bulls will be hard pressed to make it out of round 1.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

Rawse said:


> This is a fantasy world.
> 
> The best player Memphis gets back is a pretty good role-player-off-the-bench-type who's due for an inflated contract in a couple months and then just tell the Grizz to flip him for something of true value to us before the trade deadline expires in a matter of a week?
> 
> Gee, thanks.


I didn't say Nocioni would be the primary piece. My post was merely in response to why Memphis would even want Nocioni _in addition_ to getting Deng + PJ + pick. Some people are saying it doesn't make sense for Memphis to get Nocioni when they would already be getting Deng. I'm saying they could want Nocioni so they could trade him to another team for an additional pick/s.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

I haven't seen this posted anywhere today -- forgive me if it has been!

The MCA beat writer says his Grizzlies sources tell him the team is inclined to stand pat on Gasol unless they get an offer that blows them away.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/grizzlies/article/0,1426,MCA_475_5350245,00.html

Does Deng + PJ + the Knicks pick blow West away?


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