# Merged: Iverson sits out after Ford won't let him start



## Anima

*Iverson sits out after Ford won't let him start*



> AUBURN HILLS, Mich. (AP) -- Allen Iverson said he was ready to play in Sunday's 85-69 loss to the Detroit Pistons but changed his mind after 76ers coach Chris Ford told him he'd come off the bench.
> 
> ``I'm a starter. I've been a starter here for eight years. I'm not a sixth man,'' Iverson said after the game. ``I'm a starter. I know in this league ... if someone comes back from an injury, if he's a starter he starts. What's the difference? If you're going to cut my time down, cut my time down. It doesn't make any difference. I'm a starter.''


Link


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## Coatesvillain

Truthfully, as the day passes Chris Ford is slowly winning me over. With how the team was playing as of late, coupled with Iverson not looking good at a practice, he made the right decision to bring him along slowly by allowing him to come in off the bench. 

Of course, Iverson pouts, and truthfully his act is getting tired. To think he'd stand in the way of a team that's fighting for their playoff lives, because of a simple dispute of starting or not is riddiculous.


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## Philo

THANK GOD, that little whiny punk is not on the team I root for. The thing is, Chris Ford couldn't give two ****s about what the little whiner wants, considering that both of them will probably gone after the season.


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## Hibachi!

... I cant beleive this, Iverson gives his body EVERY NIGHT for the Sixers, no one can question his heart, EVER... He always played through injury, he did everything he could to make the team win. Larry Brown never questioned Iversons desire to win and play, or the respect that Iverson got from his teamates. Now this punk ***** Ford comes over, tries to act all tight, and act like hes got some authority? Suspending Iverson for one game? Sitting him on the bench? Are you kidding me? Yes, lets put a guy whos better than our whole team combined on the bench, lets put a former MVP on the bench, lets put one of the best scorers in the NBA on the bench. Smart move Ford...


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## macro6

WOW, what a baby.... Boohoo


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## futuristxen

It doesn't look good for AI.
But I still contend that a lot of this could be avoided, and it's mostly Ford who is causing these problems. He is looking for a scapegoat, and Iverson is very enticing.

But really, what team's superstar guard hasn't done equally immature things?

Yeah that's right. Just one. Cleveland. And his name is Lebron James.

Boo-yah.


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## JT

Ford is stupid. Ford - "lol iverson sit down i M head coach teh BOSS u must see i dunt care if we lose"

It isn't about personal relationships, how you feel or any of that bs. His job as coach is basically to guide the team to win, and putting Iverson in the starting lineup would've probably helped them to do so (or at least fare better than 69...) and he failed tonight. And whats this bs about 'conditioning'? The man is 6', 160 pounds and has been playing for 8 years and isn't dead or disabled yet. Let him play damn.


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## R-Star

Im a starter, I've been a starter for 8 years. 

Shut up AI. Trade this guy to the Blazers or something. I've never liked this cry baby.


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## JT

What's crazy is the same people calling him cry baby were prolly all over his nuts when Philly was doing well.


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## R-Star

> Originally posted by <b>jtx</b>!
> Ford is stupid. Ford - "lol iverson sit down i M head coach teh BOSS u must see i dunt care if we lose"
> 
> It isn't about personal relationships, how you feel or any of that bs. His job as coach is basically to guide the team to win, and putting Iverson in the starting lineup would've probably helped them to do so (or at least fare better than 69...) and he failed tonight. And whats this bs about 'conditioning'? The man is 6', 160 pounds and has been playing for 8 years and isn't dead or disabled yet. Let him play damn.


No, they would have had a better chance to win if someone didnt pout and refuse to play. I dont want anyone like that on my team. 

Ford made a good call.


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## R-Star

> Originally posted by <b>jtx</b>!
> What's crazy is the same people calling him cry baby were prolly all over his nuts when Philly was doing well.


Im calling him a cry baby and have never gave the guy any props of any sorts. Hes been doing this kind of garbage ever since he came into the league.


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## ATLien

Way to go Coach Ford!!:yes:


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## futuristxen

I love how people get morally indignant when it comes to Iverson. Like I said. There's no superstar guard out there who hasn't done this or worse.

You wanna talk about Cry-baby, let's go look at T-Mac's comments earlier this season.

You wanna diss T-Mac, que up the Vince Carter video of him at the Nelly Concert.

You wanna diss Vince, then you don't even wanna start with the never ending drama that is Kobe Bryant on the LA Lakers.

And while Paul Pierce has been a relatively good soldier, I have seen him out and out pout on the court sometimes. It's very ugly.

Ray Allen? Golden Boy? Go look at his comments around the all-star game about some of his teammates up there.

Jason Kidd? Oh boy.

And that is your guards in the top ten right now in the NBA. Don't act like Iverson is the worst of the lot. He's not. They are all big babies when their teams are losing, and especially when their teams are losing and their coach is incompetent.

Chris Ford does not deserve a bandwagon. least of all from a legion of Iverson haters on this board. Chris Ford has gone and made what was already bad situation, worse. He won't be back next year. Iverson may not either. But Ford will not be the coach long term for the Sixers.


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## ATLien

And? 

I have ripped those super-stars, and I have ripped AI. I show consistency in my superstar-bashing. Thank you very much.


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## Dre

AI may play hurt, blah blah, but the thing is, that's what people are supposed to do. Maybe he hasn't thought about the fact that the past few years since that finals run, he's been playing hurt, etc and by using simple logic, the fact that they haven't been since can raise the point that he is actually hindering the team by doing this act all the time. 

He's been waving the "I play hurt" flag for the past few years, while his team has gone nowhere. It's time for him to really grow up and become the leader that people overrate him to be. It's not helping that they are on the way to the lottery, the next sidekick to come in and "help" has been a bust, and he's whining throughout the losing instead of bringing a little positivity to the situation. 

Some day, one of his teammates (I know you have it in you DC ) should stand up and say, "maybe we should point some of the blame at you now, Allen. You've been using the same excuse for a while, while we go in circles between mediocrity and a 6th seed (same thing). I realize you've been great for us over your tenure, but now the act is rubbing thin. Go elsewhere, go somewhere else where you can do whatever you want, and say "I play hurt", and get off easy."


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## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>dre1218us</b>!
> AI may play hurt, blah blah, but the thing is, that's what people are supposed to do. Maybe he hasn't thought about the fact that the past few years since that finals run, he's been playing hurt, etc and by using simple logic, the fact that they haven't been since can raise the point that he is actually hindering the team by doing this act all the time.
> 
> He's been waving the "I play hurt" flag for the past few years, while his team has gone nowhere. It's time for him to really grow up and become the leader that people overrate him to be. It's not helping that they are on the way to the lottery, the next sidekick to come in and "help" has been a bust, and he's whining throughout the losing instead of bringing a little positivity to the situation.
> 
> Some day, one of his teammates (I know you have it in you DC ) should stand up and say, "maybe we should point some of the blame at you now, Allen. You've been using the same excuse for a while, while we go in circles between mediocrity and a 6th seed (same thing). I realize you've been great for us over your tenure, but now the act is rubbing thin. Go elsewhere, go somewhere else where you can do whatever you want, and say "I play hurt", and get off easy."


It's thoughts like these that I see all too prevelent throughout posters on here about Iverson and the Sixers. And really it just shows you how little you grasp the situation in Philly. The City, the team...everything.

What makes these things worse is that they are the same things people on the outside have been saying ever since Iverson came into the league, but they try to pass them off as new...they're not. Some of you are as ill-informed about the Sixers now as you've ever been.

I don't really agree with Allen's stand here, but I also admit that I don't have to show up for work everyday for Chris Ford, who seems dead set on making this situation what it is...


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## futuristxen

And furthermore. Even if you hate Iverson, you would be hard pressed to find a reason not to start him. What kind of coach does not start a former league MVP and by far the best player on the team, just because he questions the players conditioning?(And if there's one thing Iverson has never had a problem with, it's his stamina, he could literally run all day). If his conditioning is a problem, then why not just limit his minutes?

It's a slap in Iverson's face not to start him. Don't act like this is all Iverson being a baby. Ford is being just as big a baby, and that's why the situation is like it is.

If Johnny Davis(what's the orlando coach?) sat T-Mac when T-Mac was ready to play, Magic fans would feel the same as I do right now.


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## Dre

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> I don't really agree with Allen's stand here, but I also admit that I don't have to show up for work everyday for Chris Ford, who seems dead set on making this situation what it is...


Well, is it not Ford's duty to transform the team into his ideal fit? Just because AI, the unofficial Mayor of Philly, isn't exactly his best friend means that Ford is being the Jerk in this instance? The coach is supposed to do what is best for his team, and I am simply agreeing that this is what is best. 

And no, I'm not from Philly, but you have to look at the raw stats, and admit the 76ers haven't been a great team since that Championship run. I'm not turning this into an AI was and is a bad person thread, but I'm just saying that the situation that is in Philly is not being helped by AI's constant nit-picking little quotes in the media, etc. 

Those post-game remarks and press conferences over the past few years would make a good half hour of proof that Allen is not being a leader, because he is not helping the situation. They are a bad team, in a bad environment to be a bad team, and his only public remarks so far have translated into these words: "I've busted my a** for this team for a few years, and though we are losing, don't you even think of blaming me, I think I deserve extra leniency because of my exploits in the past." 

As by miles the best player on the team, shouldn't he be the one to look up to? The leader? He isn't helping the horrible state the 76ers are in by his constant remarks, so why should he be so constantly defended?


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## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>dre1218us</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, is it not Ford's duty to transform the team into his ideal fit? Just because AI, the unofficial Mayor of Philly, isn't exactly his best friend means that Ford is being the Jerk in this instance? The coach is supposed to do what is best for his team, and I am simply agreeing that this is what is best.
> 
> And no, I'm not from Philly, but you have to look at the raw stats, and admit the 76ers haven't been a great team since that Championship run. I'm not turning this into an AI was and is a bad person thread, but I'm just saying that the situation that is in Philly is not being helped by AI's constant nit-picking little quotes in the media, etc.
> 
> Those post-game remarks and press conferences over the past few years would make a good half hour of proof that Allen is not being a leader, because he is not helping the situation. They are a bad team, in a bad environment to be a bad team, and his only public remarks so far have translated into these words: "I've busted my a** for this team for a few years, and though we are losing, don't you even think of blaming me, I think I deserve extra leniency because of my exploits in the past."
> 
> As by miles the best player on the team, shouldn't he be the one to look up to? The leader? He isn't helping the horrible state the 76ers are in by his constant remarks, so why should he be so constantly defended?


Well as for your first point, considering the Sixers only put up 69 points, Ford's move was far from the best for the team. There is no excuse not to start AI if he is ready to play. That's just pure ego-trip on Ford's part.

As for the last part questioning Iverson's leadership. I don't know that Iverson was ever the quote unquote leader of the team, at least off the court. His energy on the court certainly led them to many a victory. But it's usually been guys like Mckie and Snow who have been the real backbone of that team.(And Mckie is part of the reason Ayers got fired, he and Big Dog.) And I think you underestimate the state of Philly sports media, remember the troubles Donavan McNabb had this last season with media...it's a whole diffrent atmosphere inside the belly of the beast. Iverson's remarks about what he has done, and how he feels he shouldn't have his heart questioned, are in response to a ravenous press that he has to answer to every day.

People do have short memories though. Iverson has done so much for the Sixers and the city of Philly that it's not even funny. I do think he's done enough to be beyond question at this stage of his career, especially when it's Chris Ford who is instigating the questioning. Iverson had no problem with Randy Ayers, I think people have a misconception that Iverson wanted Ayers gone, when that is not the truth. It was Big Dog Robinson that was more behind that happening(Is there a bigger cancer in the NBA today, I don't know?). Iverson was just upset that no one told him that Ayers was being fired.

There's just been a lot of fishy things going on all season with Billy King. I think we're only getting one side of the story. And that's the old hat, Iverson is a punk story.


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## BG7

And people say the Bulls have problems with proffesionalism. The league is different from when Skiles and Paxson played. They cant expect players not to mess around. Who cares if Curry is on the phone with someone 10 minutes before a game he isnt even playing in. Then Iverson comes along and doesnt play at all because he wouldnt start, yet he probaly would have played his normal time. Makes you think of what the league has become.


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## MikeDC

Perhaps I'm missing something... is there a legitimate (EG, basketball and not ego related) reason Ford wanted to bring AI off the bench?

If he's healthy enough to play, he's healthy enough to start.


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## Kmasonbx

There are two ways to look at this, and most people will look it as Iverson doing something totally wrong, and honestly I am an Iverson fan and I do think this was somewhat selfish. But on the other side it was a selfish decision on the part of Ford. It seems like he is trying to make a name for himself by making an example out of Iverson. If Iverson is healthy enough to play he should definitely start, now if your going to bench him for a disciplinary reason then that is something different. If Duncan decided to play tonight for the Spurs but wasn't 100% do you think he would've been coming off the bench? 

The thing is most players who are as banged up as IVerson is right now wouldn't have even attempted to play tonight. Ford was basically saying he wasn't good enough to start tonight, whcih definitely isn't the way you treat your franchise player. All Iverson haters look at this from 1 point of view, look it from both sides.


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## Minstrel

Head coaches are there for a reason. Maybe Ford is making things on tough on Iverson. Here's thought: Maybe that's the right move. Perhaps Iverson won't ever play nice with another star until he stops thinking he's bigger than the team, that he dictates what happens, rather than the head coach.

Because this is clearly a "I'm bigger than the team" move by Iverson. He's implicitly saying that there's no power structure here that gives anyone higher decision-making power than him.

Maybe that attitude needs to be killed off. Iverson fans are defending this as, "Did Ford have a good reason, related to winning *this single game*, to bring Iverson off the bench?" Maybe it's not about one single game in a crummy season. Maybe it's about making Iverson a team player, in every sense of the word. I'm sure Iverson is a good teammate in some ways, but he also seems to be a stubborn, me-centric player in other ways.

The reason Philly has never been a true power (their Finals run was in a horrible East and everyone knew they had zero chance to win the Finals) is because Iverson is not the type of player who's going to coexist (for a season; forget All-Star games that are just single days for fun) with another star, god forbid a bigger star.

Iverson essentially has to be the best player on the team, because he's unlikely to handle being the number two guy well, whether it's deserved or not. And perhaps Iverson is not good enough to be the lead guy on a championship team. But even if he is, he still needs another star near his level...and he's never played particularly well with anyone of much repute.

I'm sure Iverson fans are going to say I'm totally wrong, that Iverson would embrace anyone and be the greatest teammate you ever saw, but I'm not convinced and if Ford is not convinced, then he could have perfectly legitimate reasons for trying to break Iverson of this, "I do what I want and get what I want" garbage.

And Iverson neatly proved Ford right, by taking the news that he'll come off the bench for one game with his usual grace and aplomb: sulked and refused to play a minute while his team embarrassed itself.

I'm sorry, I've been a fan of Iverson due to his guts and his willingness to handle injury, along with his exciting game, but the guy gets a free pass from his clan of fans. Iverson could probably beat Eric Snow into the floor and some fans (not all of them; I'm not pointing my finger at anyone) would say that Iverson is misunderstood.

Iverson needs to grow up, learn that he can't and shouldn't always get his way and maybe some discipline isn't the worst crime in the world.


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## Kmasonbx

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Head coaches are there for a reason. Maybe Ford is making things on tough on Iverson. Here's thought: Maybe that's the right move. Perhaps Iverson won't ever play nice with another star until he stops thinking he's bigger than the team, that he dictates what happens, rather than the head coach.
> 
> Because this is clearly a "I'm bigger than the team" move by Iverson. He's implicitly saying that there's no power structure here that gives anyone higher decision-making power than him.
> 
> Maybe that attitude needs to be killed off. Iverson fans are defending this as, "Did Ford have a good reason, related to winning *this single game*, to bring Iverson off the bench?" Maybe it's not about one single game in a crummy season. Maybe it's about making Iverson a team player, in every sense of the word. I'm sure Iverson is a good teammate in some ways, but he also seems to be a stubborn, me-centric player in other ways.
> 
> The reason Philly has never been a true power (their Finals run was in a horrible East and everyone knew they had zero chance to win the Finals) is because Iverson is not the type of player who's going to coexist (for a season; forget All-Star games that are just single days for fun) with another star, god forbid a bigger star.
> 
> Iverson essentially has to be the best player on the team, because he's unlikely to handle being the number two guy well, whether it's deserved or not. And perhaps Iverson is not good enough to be the lead guy on a championship team. But even if he is, he still needs another star near his level...and he's never played particularly well with anyone of much repute.
> 
> I'm sure Iverson fans are going to say I'm totally wrong, that Iverson would embrace anyone and be the greatest teammate you ever saw, but I'm not convinced and if Ford is not convinced, then he could have perfectly legitimate reasons for trying to break Iverson of this, "I do what I want and get what I want" garbage.
> 
> And Iverson neatly proved Ford right, by taking the news that he'll come off the bench for one game with his usual grace and aplomb: sulked and refused to play a minute while his team embarrassed itself.
> 
> I'm sorry, I've been a fan of Iverson due to his guts and his willingness to handle injury, along with his exciting game, but the guy gets a free pass from his clan of fans. Iverson could probably beat Eric Snow into the floor and some fans (not all of them; I'm not pointing my finger at anyone) would say that Iverson is misunderstood.
> 
> Iverson needs to grow up, learn that he can't and shouldn't always get his way and maybe some discipline isn't the worst crime in the world.


I for one said this was a selfish move on Iverson's part, but I think Ford is also at fault. Ask yourself if any other player that is the heart and soul of their team was healthy enough to play would their coach ask them to come off the bench? If you think KG, Shaq, Duncan, Paul Pierce or T Mac would be asked to come off the bench because they were slowed by an injury you are crazy. All of these players would be very very upset, all except Duncan would probably be upset enough to voice their opinion. I also doubt that neither would sit out all together, which is why I say it was selfish on Iverson's part. The thing is if Iverson was so hurt that he didn't look good in practice he probably shouldn't have tried to play anyway. But he did and his coach told he wouldn't start, and Iverson acted in the wrong manner but Ford made a bad decision.


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## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Head coaches are there for a reason. Maybe Ford is making things on tough on Iverson. Here's thought: Maybe that's the right move. Perhaps Iverson won't ever play nice with another star until he stops thinking he's bigger than the team, that he dictates what happens, rather than the head coach.
> 
> Because this is clearly a "I'm bigger than the team" move by Iverson. He's implicitly saying that there's no power structure here that gives anyone higher decision-making power than him.
> 
> Maybe that attitude needs to be killed off. Iverson fans are defending this as, "Did Ford have a good reason, related to winning *this single game*, to bring Iverson off the bench?" Maybe it's not about one single game in a crummy season. Maybe it's about making Iverson a team player, in every sense of the word. I'm sure Iverson is a good teammate in some ways, but he also seems to be a stubborn, me-centric player in other ways.
> 
> The reason Philly has never been a true power (their Finals run was in a horrible East and everyone knew they had zero chance to win the Finals) is because Iverson is not the type of player who's going to coexist (for a season; forget All-Star games that are just single days for fun) with another star, god forbid a bigger star.
> 
> Iverson essentially has to be the best player on the team, because he's unlikely to handle being the number two guy well, whether it's deserved or not. And perhaps Iverson is not good enough to be the lead guy on a championship team. But even if he is, he still needs another star near his level...and he's never played particularly well with anyone of much repute.
> 
> I'm sure Iverson fans are going to say I'm totally wrong, that Iverson would embrace anyone and be the greatest teammate you ever saw, but I'm not convinced and if Ford is not convinced, then he could have perfectly legitimate reasons for trying to break Iverson of this, "I do what I want and get what I want" garbage.
> 
> And Iverson neatly proved Ford right, by taking the news that he'll come off the bench for one game with his usual grace and aplomb: sulked and refused to play a minute while his team embarrassed itself.
> 
> I'm sorry, I've been a fan of Iverson due to his guts and his willingness to handle injury, along with his exciting game, but the guy gets a free pass from his clan of fans. Iverson could probably beat Eric Snow into the floor and some fans (not all of them; I'm not pointing my finger at anyone) would say that Iverson is misunderstood.
> 
> Iverson needs to grow up, learn that he can't and shouldn't always get his way and maybe some discipline isn't the worst crime in the world.


There's two sides to ever story. And while on the one hand you can say this is a "I'm bigger than the team" on Iverson's part(I don't deny that it was the wrong thing to do on Allen's part) but on the other hand this is also very clearly about Ford saying he is "bigger than the team". A coach's job is to get his players to play at the level that gives them the best chance to win. But Ford's devisive techniques are serving to take Philly's best chance to win off of the court.

And I completely disagree that Iverson has to be the best player on his team. There has never ever been someone on the Sixers that has been even close to better than Iverson. All all of the incidents where Iverson hasn't been the best on his team(All-star games, and the Olympics) have worked out wonderful for all of those involved.

I think Iverson would accept a secondary role if he were on the same team as any of the 5 players better than him in the NBA. You may disagree, but you have no factual basis for that. At least I can point to the olympics and all-star games, you can't really point to anything and have it be a situation where Iverson wasn't the best player on his team. Even when Stackhouse was there, Iverson was the best. And that was the closest it has been.

Kmasonbx has been on point in this thread. Btw.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> 
> 
> Ask yourself if any other player that is the heart and soul of their team was healthy enough to play would their coach ask them to come off the bench?


If that "heart and soul" had a reputation of griping about coaching, blowing off team functions when the didn't suit him and not playing well with other scorers? Maybe.

The essential point some Iverson fans need to come to grips with is that Iverson has some rpetty severe attitude flaws here. This is not just one isolated incident of selfishness.



> Iverson acted in the wrong manner but Ford made a bad decision.


How can you *possibly* be in a position to know if Ford made a "bad decision"? Suppose this tough hand he takes with Iverson leads to Iverson being a more coachable player, being more discipline din his shooting and co-existing peacefully with another top player? Then would you still say it was a "bad decision"? You have no idea what's going on behind closed doors, you know less about Iverson than people who interact with him every day.

The final fact of the matter is that the head coach makes these decisions and Iverson has no call *at all* to question it or to hurt his team by refusing to live up to his contract and play. *If* Ford made a bad decision, that's something his higher-ups, like the GM and owner, can decide.

It's just a rationalization to defend the player you like to try and pass blame off to Ford. Ford, as far as *any* of us know, may be doing precisely the right thing by being tough with Iverson, rather than saying, "Iverson's our superstar, from now on what he says, goes."


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## Kmasonbx

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> How can you *possibly* be in a position to know if Ford made a "bad decision"? Suppose this tough hand he takes with Iverson leads to Iverson being a more coachable player, being more discipline din his shooting and co-existing peacefully with another top player? Then would you still say it was a "bad decision"? You have no idea what's going on behind closed doors, you know less about Iverson than people who interact with him every day.
> 
> The final fact of the matter is that the head coach makes these decisions and Iverson has no call *at all* to question it or to hurt his team by refusing to live up to his contract and play. *If* Ford made a bad decision, that's something his higher-ups, like the GM and owner, can decide.
> 
> It's just a rationalization to defend the player you like to try and pass blame off to Ford. Ford, as far as *any* of us know, may be doing precisely the right thing by being tough with Iverson, rather than saying, "Iverson's our superstar, from now on what he says, goes."


Your doing the exact same thing your accusing me of with Chris Ford, if I'm in no position to say Ford made a bad decision then what is different that you are in the position to say Iverson did something wrong? 

When you bench the star of a franchise because you don't think on that night he is one of the 5 best players you are completely in the wrong, and I don't care what excuses you make for it. You can say it may help in the long run, and hey it might, but benching you star because he wants to play hurt is not the right way to go about it. There is no way you can justify that.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> but on the other hand this is also very clearly about Ford saying he is "bigger than the team".


Ford, as head coach, *does* have the power to make these decisions. Being "bigger than the team" is trying to snatch power that isn't rightly yours.



> A coach's job is to get his players to play at the level that gives them the best chance to win. But Ford's devisive techniques are serving to take Philly's best chance to win off of the court.


For *one game*. Does this game guide the fortunes of the Sixers' fortunes for the next decade? No? Well, maybe getting Iverson to be a mature adult *does* guide the fortunes of the franchise for the next decade, or greater part of a decade.

You're using the single-game context to exonerate Iverson as much as possible, but single-game contexts aren't the only valid contexts.



> I think Iverson would accept a secondary role if he were on the same team as any of the 5 players better than him in the NBA. You may disagree, but you have no factual basis for that.


There are more than five players better than him.

And sure, I have no *proof* for believing he wouldn't accept a secondary role just as you have none for believing he *would*. That's why this called an opinion.

However, I have *evidence*, and that's his inability to play with lesser talents. If even lesser talents threaten his sense of being, what would *greater* talents do to him?

That doesn't *prove* anything, but it gives me a basis that's more than totally random opinion.


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## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> If that "heart and soul" had a reputation of griping about coaching, blowing off team functions when the didn't suit him and not playing well with other scorers? Maybe.
> 
> The essential point some Iverson fans need to come to grips with is that Iverson has some rpetty severe attitude flaws here. This is not just one isolated incident of selfishness.
> 
> 
> 
> How can you *possibly* be in a position to know if Ford made a "bad decision"? Suppose this tough hand he takes with Iverson leads to Iverson being a more coachable player, being more discipline din his shooting and co-existing peacefully with another top player? Then would you still say it was a "bad decision"? You have no idea what's going on behind closed doors, you know less about Iverson than people who interact with him every day.
> 
> The final fact of the matter is that the head coach makes these decisions and Iverson has no call *at all* to question it or to hurt his team by refusing to live up to his contract and play. *If* Ford made a bad decision, that's something his higher-ups, like the GM and owner, can decide.
> 
> It's just a rationalization to defend the player you like to try and pass blame off to Ford. Ford, as far as *any* of us know, may be doing precisely the right thing by being tough with Iverson, rather than saying, "Iverson's our superstar, from now on what he says, goes."


We know more about Iverson than we do about Ford. Ford hasn't been a head coach in forever. Maybe this is part of the reason?

Supposedly Iverson had become coachable. That's the story we heard with Larry Brown. And Iverson didn't have any problems with Ayers(He did have problems with the organization).

I think you're siding with Ford because it fits a conception you want to believe about Iverson. There's two sides to every view.

Iverson should have just came off the bench(is this actually the first time under Ford that he's come off the bench? I seem to remember he came off the bench after missing the practice the night after the all-star game, when Ford first got there...so he has sucked it up and played before. I think he's just very frustrated with an egomaniacal coach who seems to be lining up his next job rather than trying to help the Sixers reach the playoffs.)


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> 
> 
> Your doing the exact same thing your accusing me of with Chris Ford, if I'm in no position to say Ford made a bad decision then what is different that you are in the position to say Iverson did something wrong?


That's not the same thing at all. Ford has the *authority* to bench a player, and we have no idea whether he was justified in using that authority.

Iverson choosing to sit out the game is simply defiance of authority. He's not doing something he has a "right" to do, he's choosing to break the contract he signed.



> You can say it may help in the long run, and hey it might, but benching you star because he wants to play hurt is not the right way to go about it. There is no way you can justify that.


Hey, it might help in the long-run but there's no justification?

In other words, no matter what Iverson does, he's right.

Cool.


----------



## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Ford, as head coach, *does* have the power to make these decisions. Being "bigger than the team" is trying to snatch power that isn't rightly yours.
> 
> 
> 
> For *one game*. Does this game guide the fortunes of the Sixers' fortunes for the next decade? No? Well, maybe getting Iverson to be a mature adult *does* guide the fortunes of the franchise for the next decade, or greater part of a decade.
> 
> You're using the single-game context to exonerate Iverson as much as possible, but single-game contexts aren't the only valid contexts.


Well when it's every game that counts right now, it seems very selfish on Ford's part to try and send messages for a future he knows he won't be a part of.

This is all part of Billy King's scheme to shift blame to Iverson to save his job. He'll deal Iverson in the summer for garbage, just like they did with barkley. Philly will turn into the Bulls. And Iverson will have another 4 more solid years in him at a high level, maybe even a career year still in the bag.

Iverson, regretably is getting caught up in it.

And like I said before, I have proof of Iverson's ablity to play with players his equal or better, with the Olympic Qualifier where he played masterfully with those guys(and I think playing in those qualifiers is what is causing him to break down right now, next season could be even worse if he doesn't get more help).


----------



## Kmasonbx

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> However, I have *evidence*, and that's his inability to play with lesser talents. If even lesser talents threaten his sense of being, what would *greater* talents do to him?


That is WAY off, when you play with players that are nowhere near your talent you tend to have little faith in them. He isn't threatened by them, please that is a bogus statement. That is your opinion but its way off base. If you followed Iverson you would know that his teammates in the past have always liked him off the court, and if Iverson was threatened by them why would he befriend them? A player that people thought didn't get along with Iverson, Jerry Stackhouse was quoted as saying he wanted Iverson to be traded to Philly so he could play with him again. Iverson and Larry Hughes were best friends, Hughes wasn't traded because they didn't get along but because the Sixers saw Iverson as the better shooting guard. If your best friend plays the same position as you, and has an abundance of potential how are you possibly threatened by your teammates?


----------



## MikeDC

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> I think Iverson would accept a secondary role if he were on the same team as any of the 5 players better than him in the NBA. You may disagree, but you have no factual basis for that. At least I can point to the olympics and all-star games, you can't really point to anything and have it be a situation where Iverson wasn't the best player on his team. Even when Stackhouse was there, Iverson was the best. And that was the closest it has been.


I don't know the answer to this question, but it seems to be the key one.

What are some reasons that we think Iverson wouldn't play with another truly great player? I just don't see any for sure. I'll admit I don't follow the Sixers that closely, but over the past several years, has he stated anything like this? Has he said he doesn't want other scorers on his team? Or is it just an assumption that he would ***** if one were brought in?

I dunno... I mean, I could see why he might, he seems selfish a lot of the time... but then again, I haven't seen him seem selfish in this regard.


----------



## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> That's not the same thing at all. Ford has the *authority* to bench a player, and we have no idea whether he was justified in using that authority.
> 
> Iverson choosing to sit out the game is simply defiance of authority. He's not doing something he has a "right" to do, he's choosing to break the contract he signed.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, it might help in the long-run but there's no justification?
> 
> In other words, no matter what Iverson does, he's right.
> 
> Cool.


Just because someone has authority does not mean they are competent to use it, or are using it in the best way. Sometimes power corrupts. And I think that's what has happened with Chris Ford. He has decided that the Sixers are going to lose, so he's going to save himself by shifting the blame, along with Billy King, to Allen Iverson for this entire season.

This way he can market himself for his next job as the hardass who stood up to Iverson by talking about doing things the "right way".

Where in reality it appears he has no ablity to communicate with his players. And lets his ego get in the way of getting the job done.

You wanna see how it's done? Paul Silas. He will fight with guys, but he will not let it affect their minutes. He had a blow up with Ricky Davis, but he subverted his ego, kept it out of the papers, and went on with the season. Eventually Davis got traded, but he was able to get something out of him first. He did that because he knows team goals go ahead of individual ego. I don't see how Ford can impart that lesson to Iverson when he is guilty of the very things he wants to teach. But like I said. I don't think Ford gives a damn about the Sixers or Allen Iverson. He's just looking out for himself.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> I think you're siding with Ford because it fits a conception you want to believe about Iverson. There's two sides to every view.


That's interesting. I think you're siding with Iverson because you would never side against him no matter what he did.

I've only recently started to dislike Iverson's attitude. I was once like you, part of the Cult of Iverson. Poor, misunderstood little guy in a big man's game. Had to defend him against the haters that looked at his tats and cornrows and clsoed their mind to him. That wasn't fair. Sure he made a hate rap about gays and women, but he was just a kid then. Look how little he is. Sure he's never played well with any other talent, but maybe the chemistry wasn't right. Sure he shoots a shorrible percentage, but he's the focus of the defense...do you want Snow shooting? (There's an interesting interplay between him running off other talent then getting the defense that he doesn't have any talent to take pressure off him).

I'm not being sarcastic. That's how I was for years. I even defended his MVP when people felt that was ridiculous. Or the one MVP vote he got to prevent Shaq's unanimous MVP.

But unlike fans who remain in the Cult, I'm willing to accept his failings. I still like Iverson for his positives, but I'm growing incrwasingly annoyed with his negatives. Not stuff he can't control, like his size, but stuff he can, like his attitude.

I have no feelings for Chris Ford. I'm not a Ford homer. But I think *someone* (maybe Ford, maybe the next coach) has to take Iverson in hand and shake some sense into his talented ***. Stop griping. Sacrifice shots for teammates. If you don't have a good shot, let a teammate shoot, even if you think they aren't as good as you. Don't miss any team functions. Etc.

At one point, I thought he could be mini-Jordan. That's how much a fan of his I was. Now I think he can be mini-Stackhouse, when Stack was scoring 30, because Iverson refuses to stay within himself, only take good shots and make a play for a teammate in lieu of taking a circus shot.

And that's frustrating, because I still think he could be a pint-sized Jordan, a top-five player but he won't change his game for no one and nothing.

But maybe there's no point discussing this further. You won't ever acknowledge that maybe Iverson needs to shut up and do what he's told and maybe change something about himself.

You like him exactly as he is. I think he could be a hell of a lot better.


----------



## MikeDC

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> However, I have *evidence*, and that's his inability to play with lesser talents. If even lesser talents threaten his sense of being, what would *greater* talents do to him?


Which "lesser talents" have "threatened his sense of being"?

I don't see where this has happened. If anything, when I try to find stuff, I'm finding stuff like Iverson talking up Big Dog Robinson like he's the second coming:

http://www.southjerseynews.com/issues/july/s072503d.htm



> Talking with Comcast Sports Net late Wednesday night, Iverson seemed ecstatic about the trade and allowed that Robinson was just the kind of scorer to step up "when I'm having an off night."
> 
> Iverson also said that, "When we have big-time mismatches on him, he can be the first option."


In fairness, the article also makes the point that:



> The 76ers have been looking for the correct complement to Iverson for the entire length of their resident superstar's career, from Stackhouse to Van Horn, with a bunch of failed experiments in between.
> 
> Remember Tim Thomas?


but I still don't see how any of those guys were disliked or forced out by Iverson. Stackhouse wanted out because he wanted to be the man, supposedly. Also, his iso, volume scoring style was pretty much the same as AI's and didn't mesh well. I think it's a valid argument that there are a lot of guys who's games wouldn't mesh with AI... but that's not the same as saying there's an attitude/ego problem. Hughes was viewed as a bad defender and a shot jacker. Thomas a slacker. Kukoc and Van Horn were too soft for Larry Brown. Big Dog has spent most of the year hurt.

But above all of these facts is the fact that none of these dudes are what I think of when I think of a real alternative to AI. Stack is probably the best of them, and he's not exactly a TMac or Kobe.


----------



## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> That's interesting. I think you're siding with Iverson because you would never side against him no matter what he did.


again. I did say that I disagreed with him not playing. I just don't think Ford is blameless. This is the worst Iverson has been with a coach publicly in a long while. So I think he had grown up. But then in comes Ford, Billy King's man, and suddenly it's every other night that Iverson is being benched for one reason after another.

It's interesting that Ford is a big team's rules guy, and one of his rules was that he left whether a player was ready to play or not up to the player. Yet when Iverson said he was ready, Ford said he wasn't. It's very interesting. There's some schiesty things going down in Philly right now. And I don't think the right side is against Iverson on this one.

This is not Larry Brown and Pat Croce. Those guys had credibility. This is Billy King and Chris Ford. Who have none.

MikeDC, props on your posts.


----------



## MikeDC

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> again. I did say that I disagreed with him not playing. I just don't think Ford is blameless. This is the worst Iverson has been with a coach publicly in a long while. So I think he had grown up. But then in comes Ford, Billy King's man, and suddenly it's every other night that Iverson is being benched for one reason after another.


Put another way, if Iverson had been smart enough to shut his trap and go out and play, it would have pretty conclusively show what a foolish move it was on Ford's part. What would the repercussions have been if Iverson simply acted like a pro and put the ball back in their court? He would have come out smelling like a rose and they would have come out looking like jackasses. But alas, he's no rose (although Jalen Rose wasn't too happy about his early season benching either ). I tend to agree that Ford/King were fishing for an issue and they found it. Obviously, there was an issue there in the first place, and that's a problem, but the fishing expedition tells me there's lots of issues there.

I dunno... I just don't see how that approach has at all bettered the situation.



> MikeDC, props on your posts.


Thanks


----------



## Coatesvillain

Here's a point I want to get across to people, if Iverson started and played limited minutes, he would've had a press conference after the game complaining about that. Like Minstrel, I used to be a member of the Iverson Cult taking up for him at every opportunity, but I'm sick and tired of seeing Iverson acting like he's the victim in every single situation.

In the past, the Sixers bent over backwards to give Iverson his way, and when they aren't as giving as they were before, they're treating him wrong. I don't get it. I think it came to the point where the team figured out he's been missing practices his whole career, he's not going to grow up on his own, and let's force his cards.

If Iverson's ego wasn't the size of a jumbo jet, he could've swallowed it and proved Ford wrong by playing well off of the bench. He's a great player, and is fun to watch, but it wouldn't have been the first time this season he came back and was completely out of it while still jacking up shots and putting his team out of it. 

I'm not saying he's a cancer, or just his presence on the starting lineup would rip the team apart, but maybe Ford wanted him to see how the team was playing before throwing him back in. Maybe watching the flow of the game before jumping in would help.

The big question I have is, was it the fact Ford said he was coming off the bench what hurt Iverson? Or was it the fact that it was a nationally televised game, against his old coach?

I'm not saying Ford is right about everything, or is a great coach, but no matter how wrong his approach is, I think he wouldn't have had to do what he's doing now, if AI was disciplined earlier. Now the dragon is simply too big, to simply ignore.


----------



## MemphisX

This is all in the grand plan to get Iverson out of Philly. They know if they deal him before denegrating him, the Philly fans will revolt. So they are slowly, not only making him the scapegoat but trying to make him the villian. They want to make him anti-Philly, a lazy, team cancer.

I say good for the Sixers. Pitty the Sixer fans. Ask Chicago fans how smart it is to jettison a superstar because management thinks it is the solution. Ask Golden St. how helpful it was to side with coaches over players (Spree, and C Webb). Not only that but every player and agent are seeing the crappy treatment Iverson is getting for carrying the collection of scrubs Billy King has collected in Philly. I challenge anyone to name one player who has done anything significant in the NBA that is on that Philadelphia roster.


----------



## Priest

Damn Iverson is a baby....Iverson=Barkley


----------



## kflo

this certainly wasn't an attempt to embarrass iverson or discipline him. 



> "I didn't know he was going to attempt to play until how much time was left on the (pre-game) clock? Not much," Ford said. "From my understanding and what I was told yesterday after his workout, I'm going to look out for A.I. and the team. Somebody's got to make decisions around here."


that he took it so personally and decided he didn't want to be there for his team is a mark against him and noone else. it's a non-issue if he just comes off the bench and plays 40 minutes. but the poor little man needs his respect. if he'd be more of a role model (professionally) throughout his career he'd have far more credibility when he has an issue. 

iverson brings on most of his own problems. and he has alot of enablers who just don't see it.


----------



## cantgetright

Iverson should now be suspended for condut detremental to the team. If he was in his own words "ready to go" and decided to sit out because his pride is bigger than his desire to help his team, then he needs to be suspended.

I can't think of a more selfish act in the NBA ever. Ricky Davis shooting at his own goal was pretty bad but, not playing because of pride while your team is fighting for a playoff spot is unforgiveable.


----------



## The OUTLAW

> Originally posted by <b>cantgetright</b>!
> Iverson should now be suspended for condut detremental to the team. If he was in his own words "ready to go" and decided to sit out because his pride is bigger than his desire to help his team, then he needs to be suspended.
> 
> I can't think of a more selfish act in the NBA ever. Ricky Davis shooting at his own goal was pretty bad but, not playing because of pride while your team is fighting for a playoff spot is unforgiveable.


This is exactly how I see it. It doesn't matter whether you are starting or coming off of the bench. Your job is to help you team win any any way that you can. Sitting out because your not starting is just plain pathetic, childish and selfish.


----------



## Kmasonbx

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Hey, it might help in the long-run but there's no justification?
> 
> In other words, no matter what Iverson does, he's right.
> 
> Cool.


Obviously that isn't what I'm saying considering I said he was wrong for sitting out, but you are making it seem like just because Ford is the coach any decision he makes with a player is the right one. Coaches make mistakes too, but when a player disagrees with the coach somehow everyone looks at it as the coach being right, and the player is wrong. 

Saying the coach is always right is like saying your boss is always right at work or your parents have never done anything wrong. Simply put everybody makes mistakes but for whatever reason the coach always gets a pass simply becuase he is the coach.


----------



## kflo

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> 
> 
> Obviously that isn't what I'm saying considering I said he was wrong for sitting out, but you are making it seem like just because Ford is the coach any decision he makes with a player is the right one. Coaches make mistakes too, but when a player disagrees with the coach somehow everyone looks at it as the coach being right, and the player is wrong.
> 
> Saying the coach is always right is like saying your boss is always right at work or your parents have never done anything wrong. Simply put everybody makes mistakes but for whatever reason the coach always gets a pass simply becuase he is the coach.


noone's giving ford a pass just because he's the coach. it's just that relative to the situation, iverson was far MORE wrong in how he responded. we can debate about whether iverson should have started, but i don't think we can debate much about how iverson responded to not starting.

as a matter of fact, the coach is usually on the losing end of battles involving their star players. in this case, iverson's just not in a very credible position.


----------



## compsciguy78

Iverson is completely wrong in this case. If his team tells him he needs to come off the bench and contribute, he has right to be mad, but he better do it, considering the team has been playing well without him.

The big myth is that the sixers are no good without Iverson. I have never believed that. They play tough with or without him. A lot of times he just gets in the way with his attitude. If he really cared about his players and his team like he says, he would do whatever it takes to win.


----------



## compsciguy78

*The only think AI does is whine and put butts in the seats...*

I like Iverson but the guy whines constantly. He has no conception of a team game and thinks he can do whatever he wants. He is getting paid by the Sixers. They are you're boss!!! If you don't contribute to the team then you are not deserving to start.

The big myth is the 76ers can't play without AI. The truth is, they are a better team when he is out in some cases. Unless Iverson sacrifices for the team like he did in earlier seasons, the 76ers will never go anywhere except putting people in the seats because of AI.


Note to AI...you are under 6 feet tall, you are more indispensable than you think. You are not Shaq, you are not Wilt, you are not Kobe....you might be one of the best, but a team built around you is built for futility. 


(Sarcasm)Its good when you're leader doesn't want to show up for practice or you're so called leader doesn't want to listen to the coach. 

AI thinks he is too big for his own team. The guy needs a reality check...


----------



## IV

I wont argue against AI whining. He was my favorite player for a while, and is still one of my favs, but he does whine alot. But he does much more than just put butts in the seats. He wins scoring titles, MVPs, takes his team to the finals. He shows heart and determination everytime out on the court. He's not the classiest guy, but he is one hell of a player!


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

AI is a legit Top 10 player and the 6ers are GARBAGE without him!!!Every team in the league would kill to have a player of his caliber!!!


----------



## bigbabyjesus

> Originally posted by <b>HEATLUNATIC</b>!
> AI is a legit Top 10 player and the 6ers are GARBAGE without him!!!Every team in the league would kill to have a player of his caliber!!!


actually sixers aren't garbage without iverson. teams always take it easy on them when iversons out and they usually pay for it.


----------



## s a b a s 11

Hey AI, big picture, buddy.

It isn't always about you.

Stuart


----------



## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>cantgetright</b>!
> Iverson should now be suspended for condut detremental to the team. If he was in his own words "ready to go" and decided to sit out because his pride is bigger than his desire to help his team, then he needs to be suspended.
> 
> I can't think of a more selfish act in the NBA ever. Ricky Davis shooting at his own goal was pretty bad but, not playing because of pride while your team is fighting for a playoff spot is unforgiveable.


Good grief. Don't you think it's a bit much to label this the most selfish act in NBA history?

How about Scottie Pippen refusing to go in in the final seconds because Phil Jackson didn't draw the play for him against New York?

How about Vince Carter going to see Nelly instead of being there with his team?

And that's just two off the top of my head that are as selfish or moreso.

But yeah. Let's all gather around and talk about how Iverson is the problem in Philly. Always has been. Always will be. He has an awful attitude. He belongs in jail. He has too many tatoos. Cornrows are too thuggish. His shorts are too long. His shoes are too flashy. He should wear a suit to the press conferences. He's too small to play in the NBA. He can't shoot. He carries the ball when he dribbles. He can't play with anyone else. Just bring it all out. Let's just run down the checklist that we run down every single time Iverson does anything less than perfect.

Don't get high and mighty or anything.


----------



## Pinball

Ford is probably in a win/win situation here. Philly is terrible this year, with or without Iverson. He's not going to catch much heat from people around the league for benching Iverson because the Sixers aren't going anywhere. On the contrary, people will praise him like he made some big statement or something. I'm not about to praise Chris Ford for benching Iverson when the season is already in the tank. I'll praise him when they make an example out of Iverson when the Sixers are in the thick of things. That to me will prove that no one player is bigger than the team. Iverson has been getting away with his childish behavior in Philly from day one. Even when Larry Brown was there he'd never punish Iverson severely. More often that not, Iverson would sit for a quarter or a half for repeatedly missing practice. Brown is the ultimate "win now" head coach and he wasn't about to hurt his team's chances by suspending Iverson. I'd love to see a coach stand up to Iverson when the games matter. That will alienate Iverson from his team more than anything Ford does to him right now. If iVerson is missing key games because of detrimental conduct, his teammates will resent his behavior that much more. Don't get me wrong, I think that Ford made the right move. I just don't think it's worthy of the entire league's praise.


----------



## Philo

Iverson makes over $10 million per season. Get on the damn floor.


----------



## futuristxen

Oh good. It's a whole thread dedicated to bashing Iverson's character. Because... you know...the whole other thread with people *****ing about Iverson wasn't enough.:laugh: 

At least he hasn't threatened retirement because he couldn't hack it with a zone defense. . .

Or god forbid he get charged with something like rape... 

I can't even imagine what some of you would be saying then.

Face it. A lot of people need Iverson to be the villian. It makes their world make all that much more sense. And I'd drop a scarface quote, but I have to get going.

I shall return to rant and rave later.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> 
> 
> actually sixers aren't garbage without iverson. teams always take it easy on them when iversons out and they usually pay for it.


Like u said teams take it easy on them when AI is out!!!If Ivy wasnt on the team no one would take it easy on them and they would be horrible!!!


----------



## JT

> The only think AI does is whine and put butts in the seats...


*edited: Yeah, you sure taught *him* a thing or two about maturity. Lease out the personal attacks or don't bother posting, thanks*


----------



## ToddMacCulloch11

I like AI a lot, but the not coming off the bench thing was completely rediculous, plain and simple.


----------



## JT

> Originally posted by <b>ToddMacCulloch11</b>!
> I like AI a lot, but the not coming off the bench thing was completely rediculous, plain and simple.


yeah i agree. it was a test of his character and he failed it.


----------



## Pinball

> Originally posted by <b>jtx</b>!
> 
> 
> *edited*


Creative.


----------



## jokeaward

You mean dispensable.

Come off the bench, Allen. You're not returning Jordan, you're an injured player who shot 2-21 not long ago. Just go with the flow. You won't remember much of this season anyway.

I don't think he whines too much. I guess. He should give input and it should be heard. KG's opinion is respected.

He's good, he has done a lot, he's more valuable than the GM, but he the Sixers are indeed his boss. And he has ruffled a lot of feathers.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Good grief. Don't you think it's a bit much to label this the most selfish act in NBA history?
> 
> How about Scottie Pippen refusing to go in in the final seconds because Phil Jackson didn't draw the play for him against New York?
> 
> How about Vince Carter going to see Nelly instead of being there with his team?
> 
> And that's just two off the top of my head that are as selfish or moreso.


Or Magic Johnson ignoring the coach's instructions to pass the ball in Abdul-Jabbar in order to throw up his own shot (an airball) to end a game and the playoffs for the Lakers, in 1981.

Yes, there have been more selfish single acts. Of course, the big difference between Iverson and Magic or Pippen is that those two were selfless team players the other 99.9999% of their careers, while Iverson has a history of putting himself ahead of the team.

So you chide them for a moment of bad judgement and move on. Iverson seems to have an on-going problem.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> At least he hasn't threatened retirement because he couldn't hack it with a zone defense. . .


Don't you think you're stretching to a spectacular extent when you compare a frustrated quote to quitting on your team for an entire game?

That's like saying, "What's the big deal with what Bertuzzi did? At least he didn't complain about left wing locks like *some* players."

And no, I'm not comparing Iverson's quitting to Bertuzzi's act of violence. I'm simply saying that you're going to fairly desparate measures when you compare McGrady's *quote* (which was entirely non-harmful to anyone, beyond drawing mocks upon himself by those who already didn't like him) to Iverson's letting his entire team down.


----------



## MongolianDeathCloud

Iverson has jumped the shark. He was great in the past, and some seem to hold onto that in the present, but the current reality is that his team is going nowhere, he's not happy with it nor is he going to put in the same effort anymore, his team is awful because it was constructed to take advantage of Ivy two years ago, and his career is is definitely in it's twilight unless something significant happens.

I think both him and the management have got to look at trades because things are just going to get worse -- the 76ers are locked into a bunch of fat contracts for old guys that are just going to get older, including Iverson. And the only piece that the Sixers could receive fair value for is Ivy.

It's kind of like Payton on the Sonics, or the big three on the Bucks -- it's time to try new things because while they aren't horrible, things are only going to get worse.


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## xpossey

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> I wont argue against AI whining. He was my favorite player for a while, and is still one of my favs, but he does whine alot. But he does much more than just put butts in the seats. He wins scoring titles, MVPs, takes his team to the finals. He shows heart and determination everytime out on the court. He's not the classiest guy, but he is one hell of a player!


 AI is a thug and his never gonna grow up a be a man.


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## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Or Magic Johnson ignoring the coach's instructions to pass the ball in Abdul-Jabbar in order to throw up his own shot (an airball) to end a game and the playoffs for the Lakers, in 1981.
> 
> Yes, there have been more selfish single acts. Of course, the big difference between Iverson and Magic or Pippen is that those two were selfless team players the other 99.9999% of their careers, while Iverson has a history of putting himself ahead of the team.
> 
> So you chide them for a moment of bad judgement and move on. Iverson seems to have an on-going problem.


This is the first and only time Iverson has quit on the floor. So I don't know where you get that it's an on-going problem. Up until yesterday he has always risen above the controversy and left it all out on the floor.

That's why it should raise eyebrows that this is happening now, coming on the heals of a year and a summer where Larry Brown said Iverson had played his best ball and had definitely matured as a person.

I still think this whole situation speaks as much or more of Chris Ford than it does of Iverson. Ford has been bumping heads with Iverson since day one.

Here's my question, some are saying that Ford standing up to Iverson is a good thing because it will change the way Iverson plays, which they say is selfish...so what you would like to see is Iverson become a pass-first point guard? That's just not possible for the Sixers to win like that. Look at the numbers, the Sixers have had their worst seasons with Iverson when he has put up the highest assist numbers...that's because this roster does not have the guns to play that way. There is no scoring on the team to pick up where Iverson leaves. The team wins when it plays tough defense and then runs the offense through Iverson. That was the system Larry Brown ran, and it's the system that has always worked. It's not what they have been doing this year. And it's why they won't make the playoffs.


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## quick

Iversons just a short man crying out for attention I don't see how the sixers franchise can let his behavior keep up like that.He does some of the most provoking things and yet people still thinks hes a badass? Well when he did something like he did recently like not wanting to come off from the bench and play with the team but watch with a throwback jersey on it did prove that he was bad and an ***.


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## futuristxen

*Iverson AND Ford are wrong*

We've got two threads dedicated to Iverson being a whiny baby, this thread is dedicated to the middle ground, where you see this for what it is. Two guys with egos, and two guys who are putting themselves above the team goals for the Sixers right now.

You don't think Ford should get any blame...well then explain why Iverson should not start when he tells you he is ready to go? Ask yourself, would that happen to any other team's superstar franchise player? If Shaq told Phil that he could play, would Phil tell Shaq he would bring him off the bench? No he wouldn't.

Ford has continually, since his arrival, been butting heads with Iverson.

Both of them need to grow up and work something out. But all that will happen is that the season will end, Philly won't make the playoffs, Ford won't be back next year, and Billy King will be able to trade Iverson without being lynched(since Iverson IS the only tradeable commodity on that team of overpaid veterans)...it's a shame, because Iverson signed that contract to be a Sixer for life. But as they say, history repeats itself. We all saw how well the early rebuilding from the Barkley trade worked...don't expect it to work any better here. Billy is no Kiki.

Ford and Iverson will both go one to bigger and better things. But the real losers in this are the Philly fans.


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## JT

hmm maybe i shouldn't have posted, shouldn't have posted in this ignorant topic in the first place.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> This is the first and only time Iverson has quit on the floor. So I don't know where you get that it's an on-going problem.


The "on-going problem" referred to causing problems with the team, whether it's missing practice or being late to a game or whatever.

I'm sure you're aware that Iverson has been the source of constant controversy. It's the type of thing you've criticized Rasheed Wallace for, yet give Ivy a pass on.


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## Minstrel

Okay, we don't need three threads for this topic. We don't even need two. My bad for not merging the two Iverson threads earlier. But now I'm merging all three.

Argue who's to blame, Iverson, Ford or both, in this thread. Thanks.

The various threads of Ivy are now intertwined.


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## Coatesvillain

Isn't it funny that Iverson is complaining about being a starter and that starters should get their starting job back when they return from injury.. Yet, Derrick Coleman came off the bench. A reporter asked him that in the post game press conference, and AI didn't comment on it.

When it comes down to it, yesterday the Sixers were just outside the playoffs trying to fight their way in, say they win they're closer to the eighth seed. That might not seem like much to many, but for a team with a ton of pride who were playing hot it's an accomplishment. AI just before the game tells Ford he can play, so Ford says he can let him come off the bench, you have to figure that Ford already has a gameplan drawn up and liked how the starting five looked in previous games, plus Aaron McKie has played very well as of late. 

Instead of acknowledging that, Iverson made a stand that pretty much says that him starting is worth more than the team winning. And that just crosses a line with me, and no matter how wrong Ford might have been, his was by far the lesser of two wrongs.

But hey, he's the starter, he's the scoring champion, he's the MVP, he's the Olympian, he's Allen Iverson, and like every other time he's dressing himself up as the victim.


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## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> ... I cant beleive this, Iverson gives his body EVERY NIGHT for the Sixers, no one can question his heart, EVER... He always played through injury, he did everything he could to make the team win. Larry Brown never questioned Iversons desire to win and play, or the respect that Iverson got from his teamates. Now this punk ***** Ford comes over, tries to act all tight, and act like hes got some authority? Suspending Iverson for one game? Sitting him on the bench? Are you kidding me? Yes, lets put a guy whos better than our whole team combined on the bench, lets put <b>a former MVP on the bench, lets put one of the best scorers in the NBA on the bench. Smart move Ford... </b>


I agree - and Chris Ford needs to take some classes in management! I have NEVER lost my position when coming back from time off due to injury where I work!!


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## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> The "on-going problem" referred to causing problems with the team, whether it's missing practice or being late to a game or whatever.
> 
> I'm sure you're aware that Iverson has been the source of constant controversy. It's the type of thing you've criticized Rasheed Wallace for, yet give Ivy a pass on.


I think we had a misunderstanding about Rasheed Wallace back when we had that arguement. I was trying to say that I liked his crazy rants. And then it spun out like I didn't like Rasheed. I do like Rasheed. Maybe he'll take a paycut and go to Philly and play with AI.

You see how all of the Rasheed issues go under the door once he's on a winning team?

That's the bottom line. If the Sixers were where they were supposed to be, then none of this would be an issue, and Chris Ford wouldn't have a job because Ayers would not have been fired.

I think a lot of the "controversy" has had more bark than bite with Allen. Even when he had his legal troubles they were trumped up, and we were made to believe that it was this big important earth shattering deal, when there was really nothing to it.

This situation with Ford is serious, but not because of questions of maturity. It's serious because of the power struggle involved within the Sixers organization as a whole. This isn't really Iverson vs. Ford, as much as it is King vs. Iverson/Upper Management.

Kudos btw on finally merging the threads. 
You're getting slow in your advance years.


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> I think we had a misunderstanding about Rasheed Wallace back when we had that arguement. I was trying to say that I liked his crazy rants. And then it spun out like I didn't like Rasheed. I do like Rasheed. Maybe he'll take a paycut and go to Philly and play with AI.


That would actually be a perfect pairing. Iverson wants the ball, Wallace wants to defer to someone. 

And sorry about getting your sentiments on Wallace wrong, then. I will admit you're consistent.



> You see how all of the Rasheed issues go under the door once he's on a winning team?


He was villified when Portland was as much a winning team, or moreso, than Detroit is.



> That's the bottom line. If the Sixers were where they were supposed to be, then none of this would be an issue, and Chris Ford wouldn't have a job because Ayers would not have been fired.


I think there's some correlation with Ayers letting Iverson walk all over him and Philly not doing well. When Brown was fighting with Iverson, the Sixers were more successful.

I think Brown would have yanked Iverson during the 2-21 game. When you're shots are so ill-advised that you miss, what, 18 straight ? you need to sit down and cool off. I think with Brown gone, Iverson's like a fox let loose in the hen house. He does what he wants, mostly on the court, and no one gain-says him.

Some people need reigning in. It doesn't even mean they're bad people. It just means that, given their head, they sometimes get out of control, in one way or another.

I don't think Ayers was the type to do any reigning in.



> Kudos btw on finally merging the threads.
> You're getting slow in your advance years.


I can still give you the thrashing of your life, your young whipper-snapper.


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## futuristxen

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> I think there's some correlation with Ayers letting Iverson walk all over him and Philly not doing well. When Brown was fighting with Iverson, the Sixers were more successful.
> 
> I think Brown would have yanked Iverson during the 2-21 game. When you're shots are so ill-advised that you miss, what, 18 straight ? you need to sit down and cool off. I think with Brown gone, Iverson's like a fox let loose in the hen house. He does what he wants, mostly on the court, and no one gain-says him.
> 
> Some people need reigning in. It doesn't even mean they're bad people. It just means that, given their head, they sometimes get out of control, in one way or another.
> 
> I don't think Ayers was the type to do any reigning in.


I think the correlation is more with Iverson being injured, Glen Robinson being injured, and on down the line. Ayers got walked over by guys like Aaron Mckie(suprisingly) and Big Dog when he did come back(not suprisingly)...I don't think Iverson had anything to do with the Ayers problems.

However. I do agree that Iverson does need someone who will kick his ***. He said that just a few weeks ago, that his two best coaches were Brown and Thompson, who gave him boundries off the court, but also just let him go out and play on it.

Ford however is not that guy. That's what I don't like. And I think that's why Iverson is having the problems. Ford is not a legend. A long term guy. Iverson sees this stuff coming from a guy like Ford and it looks like Ford is just trying to get his name in the paper. I guarantee that's what Iverson thinks. The very first interaction they have...first Ayers gets fired, Iverson finds out from the press, but not from Billy King(odd considering he is the franchise player that he would have no say or knowledge about a coaching change) and then the man King brings in, organizes a practice the day after the all-star game in which Iverson played, and then penalizes Iverson because he doesn't have Ford's number and didn't know he was supposed to call Ford to make it alright(oddly, I believe Allen called Billy King...oddly....)...

I think Iverson like a lot of great players needs a coach and an organization they can trust behind them. Otherwise things hit the ceiling. Iverson has a coach and an organization against him. Or at least I believe that is what his thought process is.

Again. I think this is just one big mess, and Iverson is only the most visible side of it.

The fact that the Sixers are going to miss the playoffs, only heightens all of this.

This is all very much like looking at a traffic wreck right now.


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## DaUnbreakableKinG

Miller storms off the bench; me-first Iverson just storms 



> Anyone else notice the contrast here? In Philadelphia, Allen Iverson reasserts his standing as one of the elite prima donnas in the NBA, refusing to play in a return-from-injury game at Detroit after learning coach Chris Ford doesn't have him penciled in as a starter. In Sacramento, Brad Miller goes to the bench after three-quarters of a season as an All-Star caliber starter and acts as though the whole process has been as energizing as a spa treatment.


good article.


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## futuristxen

Of course the Brad Miller situation would only be applicable if Chris Webber had lost his starting job due to injury. Which is what happened to AI. And Chris Ford doesn't have a brad miller in front of Iverson to even make an arguement about.

So again. What franchise player is benched when he says he is ready to play? It makes no sense. It never happens. More guys would pitch a fit than people think around here. I don't know how many would refuse to play. But there would be a big deal about it.

Earlier in the Season Jalen Rose blasted Bill Cartwright for doing a similiar move. And this is a slap in the face on a much grander level.

Iverson let his emotions get the best of him in the situation. I guess just be happy he didn't take a swing at Ford. But I'm sure that's happening.


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## JRose5

I thought it was a pretty childish move, but I can see where he's coming from.
I would be upset too, but you still gotta play even if you don't like coming off the bench.
If he wasn't healthy enough to play, thats one thing.
Why try to intimidate and embarrass the interim coach like that, seems strange to me.
I thought it was a move that made him look stupid, but I guess I can't blame him.


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## MJG

Sixers Show That Iverson, Not Ford, is Boss ...



> Comcast-Spectacor, the conglomerate that owns the Philadelphia 76ers, has instituted a customer-service policy known as "How You Doin'?" It's based on that classic greeting one hears around Philly all the time. Sounds like a fine idea, probably the brainchild of Dave Coskey, Comcast's marketing whiz. Ask that question specifically about the 76ers these days, though, and the answer would have to be: "Yo, not so good."
> 
> The drama currently being played out in Philadelphia is archetypal. It's been going on almost as long as the NBA has been in business, although increased press coverage makes it sound like a new phenomenon. Call it Who's In Charge?
> 
> Is it the head coach, who is respected but lacks a gold-plated, Phil Jacksonesque resume? Or is it the superstar, who is problematic and pouty, but undeniably the soul of the franchise, and, just as important, the sole of the franchise, as in the sole reason anyone comes to the games?
> 
> This power struggle has happened before and it will happen again, which is exactly why it's worth exploring.


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## ToddMacCulloch11

Since Tim Duncan came off the bench last night, how does that make Iverson look? He said no superstar, MVP, allstar, etc. came off the bench, and now there is that.


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## RoyWilliams

> Originally posted by <b>ToddMacCulloch11</b>!
> Since Tim Duncan came off the bench last night, how does that make Iverson look? He said no superstar, MVP, allstar, etc. came off the bench, and now there is that.


I saw that on Sportscenter and they kind of slid it in when they said Duncan didnt start and came off the bench. As soon as they said that i knew who it was directed too.


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