# Pau Gasol wants out



## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

Well, he basically said that wants to play for a team that can compete right away for an NBA ring. I think he is a great player and a good fit here. 
He stated that would seek for a trade if things in Memphis dont change ASAP, so I wouldnt be surprised if that takes place before next deadline. 
Also we have some good trading chips to play around, from Rudy Gay's buddy (TT) to Noc (someone that JW likes a lot) and so on.

Opinions?


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

When did he say these things?


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

El Chapu said:


> Well, he basically said that wants to play for a team that can compete right away for an NBA ring. I think he is a great player and a good fit here.
> He stated that would seek for a trade if things in Memphis dont change ASAP, so I wouldnt be surprised if that takes place before next deadline.
> Also we have some good trading chips to play around, from Rudy Gay's buddy (TT) to Noc (someone that JW likes a lot) and so on.
> 
> Opinions?


I'd give them P.J. Brown, Tyrus Thomas, and the 2007 Knicks' pick without any strings attached. According to the RealGM trade checker, that deal is CBA compliant.

Is that a lot? Yup. Is Gasol worth it? Absolutely -- we have no idea what Thomas or the Knicks pick is going to end up being. Gasol is an excellent player who brings everything we need and then some, and he just turned 26.

I think the Bulls would probably win at least one NBA title within the next four seasons if my proposed deal happened, and multiple titles wouldn't be out of the question. That team would have tons of front-court/back-court balance, great offense-defense balance, youth, athleticism, etc.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> I'd give them P.J. Brown, Tyrus Thomas, and the 2007 Knicks' pick without any strings attached. According to the RealGM trade checker, that deal is CBA compliant.
> 
> Is that a lot? Yup. Is Gasol worth it? Absolutely -- we have no idea what Thomas or the Knicks pick is going to end up being. Gasol is an excellent player who brings everything we need and then some, and he just turned 26.
> 
> I think the Bulls would probably win at least one NBA title within the next four seasons if my proposed deal happened, and multiple titles wouldn't be out of the question. That team would have tons of front-court/back-court balance, great offense-defense balance, youth, athleticism, etc.


Co-signed.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> I'd give them P.J. Brown, Tyrus Thomas, and the 2007 Knicks' pick without any strings attached. According to the RealGM trade checker, that deal is CBA compliant.
> 
> Is that a lot? Yup. Is Gasol worth it? Absolutely -- we have no idea what Thomas or the Knicks pick is going to end up being. Gasol is an excellent player who brings everything we need and then some, and he just turned 26.
> 
> I think the Bulls would probably win at least one NBA title within the next four seasons if my proposed deal happened, and multiple titles wouldn't be out of the question. That team would have tons of front-court/back-court balance, great offense-defense balance, youth, athleticism, etc.


wow i think TT is going to be a great player someday but this is a hot :banana:


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## LegoHat (Jan 14, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> I'd give them P.J. Brown, Tyrus Thomas, and the 2007 Knicks' pick without any strings attached. According to the RealGM trade checker, that deal is CBA compliant.
> 
> Is that a lot? Yup. Is Gasol worth it? Absolutely -- we have no idea what Thomas or the Knicks pick is going to end up being. Gasol is an excellent player who brings everything we need and then some, and he just turned 26.
> 
> I think the Bulls would probably win at least one NBA title within the next four seasons if my proposed deal happened, and multiple titles wouldn't be out of the question. That team would have tons of front-court/back-court balance, great offense-defense balance, youth, athleticism, etc.


I'd do that deal in a heartbeat.


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## bruindre (Jul 18, 2004)

Ron Cey said:


> When did he say these things?


I second _that_. I'd save my excitement until I hear Pau say he wants out myself.


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## More (Sep 3, 2006)

Its not the first time I think Gasol could fit in this team. Lets see what happens shortly.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

bruindre said:


> I second _that_. I'd save my excitement until I hear Pau say he wants out myself.


 agreed. i cant find those comments any where.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

:laugh:

Hope we get a link before this thread reaches 50 "hold Memphis hostage" posts.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3998842&postcount=1


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

Rawse said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Hope we get a link before this thread reaches 50 "hold Memphis hostage" posts.


... there was a link in one of the forums you mod.

It's in spanish and was translated.

Anyone else able to translate the article or verify if the translation was done well?

-Petey


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Thanks for the link. 

I wouldn't exactly say that means he "wants out".


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

Oops, sorry guys. I was taking a shower after posting this.

You can read it on "Marca.es" (spanish)

And I would take it as him wanting out. He said he wants the team to contend as soon as this season and that wont happen. When players say "I have to thank (insert team name) for always supporting me BUT...." you know something is wrong.

We will see...


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## Nutritionals (May 9, 2005)

Memphis would never do that trade. You'd have to be willing to give up more than potential and a past his prime PF to get Gasol.


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## bruindre (Jul 18, 2004)

If the translation is accurate...WOW! And hell yeah he'd be a great fit in Chicago.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Nutritionals said:


> Memphis would never do that trade. You'd have to be willing to give up more than potential and *a past his prime PF to get Gasol*.


You are probably right. But I'd note that PJ Brown's value to Memphis would be in his large, expiring contract.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Nutritionals said:


> Memphis would never do that trade. You'd have to be willing to give up more than potential and a past his prime PF to get Gasol.


I don't think Gasol's going to fetch you Dwyane Wade or LeBron or Dwight Howard. If Memphis decides to trade him, it would to rebuild, not reload with a better player. 

Tyrus Thomas plus what's likely going to be a pretty high pick in an impact draft and a $9 million (give or take) expiring contract is an awfully enticing deal, imo. The only reason I'd even consider parting with them is that I don't think Thomas and the 2007 pick are going to be ready to contribute at the highest level before Ben Wallace's contract expires. The Bulls are in full-on "win now" mode, and Gasol would get them over the hump and then some.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Petey said:


> ... there was a link in one of the forums you mod.


I appreciate the subtlety as always, Petey. Really gets under my skin and motivates me and stuff. After making my first post here, I then went to one of the forums I mod and checked the link out for myself. I even responded, in the hopes that with that post, I can someday build a forum with the population of Mongolia so I can be just like you.

I don't know how you surf the site, but I use the New Posts search. This is the first thing that came up, and I responded. Sue me.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Gasol would be a great fit but I don't think I would be willing to deal Thomas and the Knicks pick unprotected next year for him and I will tell you why. For all we know Thomas could be the next Amare, would you rather have Amare or Gasol? For all we know that Knicks pick could net us Oden who is the closest thing to a surefire modern day Shaq scouts have seen in years. Would you rather have a young Shaq or Gasol? So, while Gasol is undoubtedly talented and a great fit, unless Memphis would like a Gordon/Deng package or a Gordon/Brown/protected top 5 pick, I think we should wait and see what our bird in hand will do first.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> Gasol would be a great fit but I don't think I would be willing to deal Thomas and the Knicks pick unprotected next year for him and I will tell you why. For all we know Thomas could be the next Amare, would you rather have Amare or Gasol? For all we know that Knicks pick could net us Oden who is the closest thing to a surefire modern day Shaq scouts have seen in years. Would you rather have a young Shaq or Gasol? So, while Gasol is undoubtedly talented and a great fit, unless Memphis would like a Gordon/Deng package or a Gordon/Brown/protected top 5 pick, I think we should wait and see what our bird in hand will do first.


Those are all ifs and buts.

Gasol is proven, guaranteed, rock-solid production. Right now. From the minute he steps on a court. 

Ben Wallace is 32 years old. The window is very small.

Yes, TT and the Knicks' pick MIGHT turn out to be franchise players -- you are conveniently leaving out the stronger likelihood that they won't be. Plus, we have -- at best -- a 25% shot at Oden, and while he's probably the consensus #1, he sure doesn't look like the second coming of Shaq to me. 

I've had enough MIGHTS to last me a while. The point is that TT and/or the Knicks' pick is at least 4-5 years away from being an All-NBA type player, and that's when you take a leap of faith and assume they'll ever be that good, period.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> Those are all ifs and buts.
> 
> Gasol is proven, guaranteed, rock-solid production. Right now. From the minute he steps on a court.
> 
> ...



My sentiments exactly.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> Those are all ifs and buts.
> 
> Gasol is proven, guaranteed, rock-solid production. Right now. From the minute he steps on a court.
> 
> ...



I see your point and I agree that Gasol is proven commodity. I don't think the window is all thats small however and I think our team is...right now...going to be one of the elite's in the league. I think we have a legit shot at the title even without Gasol. Sure, Gasol would likely put us over the top this season and he is young and would be with the team for a long while. 

Still, We have no earthly idea how good TT will be in the pros. Everyone said it would take Amare 4-5 years too until he stepped onto the court. TT was the #4 pick in the draft and Pax said he was the best prospect he has seen in a while. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if TT ends up being a major player. And most scouts have dubbed Oden the new Shaq and I think, from what little I have seen of him, that it bears some merit. I also know there are quite a few good players like Kevin Durrant available in the draft that could be big difference makers as well. 

Anyway, I don't want to see us give up 2 probably pretty good and potentially great players for one player who is already great, at least not this early in the game. I mean we should at the very least see what TT can do or protect the pick IMO.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> Those are all ifs and buts.
> 
> Gasol is proven, guaranteed, rock-solid production. Right now. From the minute he steps on a court.
> 
> ...


The next shaq, Oden isn't....But the Bill Russell/David Robinson comparison is pretty solid.

You all can count me in as not willing do do this deal.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

I gotta keep going with ScottMay on this one, Ace. 

Here are a couple more quick reasons:

(a) Tyrus is a 3/4. Moreover, he considers himself a 3. And we already have two very good 3s in Deng and Nocioni. Gasol is a 4 all the way. Net benefit to the Bulls is to keep Deng/Noc at the 3 and put Gasol at the 4. 

(b) Oden schmoden. Lets ignore what he may or may not become. The thing is, are we really going to get him? Is he going to declare? How bad are the Knicks really going to be (bad - but top 3 or 4 bad?)? And regardless, even if they are the absolute WORST, that still leaves us with only a 25% at Oden. 

Oden can't even be a consideration when you are talking about Gasol. Not when Gasol could very well make us the best team in the NBA, and a team that competes for the ring every season for the next 4 years. 

Sure, you try to #1 protect it. But if Memphis won't bite, drop the protection.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

I don't think it's just about Oden...

There's a few players in that draft that'll be franchise caliber...

I don't even think Paxson would be willing to deal Tyrus...he talks about his potential more than I ever heard him speak on Deng, Hinrich or Gordon.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

The ROY said:


> I don't think it's just about Oden...
> 
> There's a few players in that draft that'll be franchise caliber...
> 
> I don't even think Paxson would be willing to deal Tyrus...he talks about his potential more than I ever heard him speak on Deng, Hinrich or Gordon.


If Paxson wouldn't trade Tyrus Thomas to get Pau Gasol to team with Ben Wallace, then Paxson is an idiot.

But ROY, if I recall, you aren't real high on Gasol as a general matter, are you? Am I remembering that correctly?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

The ROY said:


> I don't think it's just about Oden...
> 
> There's a few players in that draft that'll be franchise caliber...
> 
> I don't even think Paxson would be willing to deal Tyrus...he talks about his potential more than I ever heard him speak on Deng, Hinrich or Gordon.



Thats true and for all we know it is conceivable (if not likely) that Thomas is BETTER than Gasol. Of course, the good thing about a trade for Gasol is that he will be out with a foot injury so it would let the Bulls get a glimpse of Thomas first and see how far along he is and what they would be giving up.

There are a LOT of good players in the draft next year even if we don't get Oden there is still Durrant, Spencer Hawes and about 5 other guys that should be pimpin. If we did this deal with Memphis I would really think we would want top 5 pick protection. I would prefer parting with Gordon over TT because I think Thabo is going to be very good and we would have size balance in our backcourt by trading Gordon (no I don't dislike Gordon he is a stud in his own right). And I really don't CARE what position Thomas thinks he is, I am pretty sure he will play where Skiles tells him to and I am pretty sure that will be mostly at the 4. I suggested Deng in my other post just because of any potential logjams at the three but really we don't know how good he will be either this season.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> I don't think it's just about Oden...
> 
> There's a few players in that draft that'll be franchise caliber...


Possibly. But even assuming that there is, how far away are they from becoming franchise players? 2 seasons? 5 seasons? 8 seasons?

I think that Gasol/Wallace/Deng/Nocioni/Hinrich/Gordon/Sefolosha/etc. is at worst a top 3 team each of the next four seasons, and something approaching a lock to win the East, and that Gasol/Wallace would be one of the great ALL-TIME 4-5 tandems.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> If Paxson wouldn't trade Tyrus Thomas to get Pau Gasol to team with Ben Wallace, then Paxson is an idiot.



Well yeah, a straight up trade is one thing, but when we are talking about TT, Brown and his expiring deal, AND our unprotected pick which could be quite valuable...it is a little harder to gauge.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

ace20004u said:


> Well yeah, a straight up trade is one thing, but when we are talking about TT, Brown and his expiring deal, AND our unprotected pick which could be quite valuable...it is a little harder to gauge.


Certainly. I was responding to this:



> I don't even think Paxson would be willing to deal Tyrus


Which I took to mean that Tyrus' inclusion might be enough to make Paxson balk. 

Harder to gauge, I agree. But I still think Scott is right. It is a move that I would back all the way. My only reservation would be Gasol's foot. I'd want to know that he could return to form.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> My only reservation would be Gasol's foot. I'd want to know that he could return to form.


It's the Martha's Vineyard fracture -- his fifth metatarsal. It's fairly benign; if he were a layperson, he might not even need a cast or surgery.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> It's the Martha's Vineyard fracture -- his fifth metatarsal. It's fairly benign; if he were a layperson, he might not even need a cast or surgery.


Then there you have it. I'm on board.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

count me as one who'd pass on a gasol move in its present incantation. gasol's a fine player, but the bull is in a good position for the present and future, and i personally don't believe the "win now" move of wallace means that after this season, the team goes downhill cause ben's game deteriorates before our eyes. 

plus, that pick is likely to have more/less value as the season goes on; there's no rush to move it.

should thomas have an impact as a rookie like amare, i dont care what position he plays as long as he's on the court; impact players are unique in their ability to change games. gasol hasn't been able to get past the first round, same as the core of the bull. pairing the two could mean success, but i'm doubtful that unless a favorable deal comes forth, pax would pull the trigger on this. 

i don't hate it, but i wouldn't start ringing memphis' phone off the hook, either.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

he had surgery on the foot after worlds. he's out four months. so i would imagine productivity "right now" wouldn't really be "right now". maybe he had the more severe "Block Island" fracture.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14823785/




> His franchise player, Pau Gasol, was about to get *a screw implanted in his left foot to repair a fracture* he suffered during Spain's march to the gold at the World Championships. That wipes out half of Gasol's season, so this is what Fratello has to figure out: How do the Grizzlies survive without the guy who led them in scoring, rebounding, assists and blocks last year? Short answer — they don't.




still, i'd do that trade! i vaguely recall there's an article every off-season with him saying he's not happy in memphis and then he says he is, then, surprise, they lose (badly) again in the first round and he's unhappy again!! also - gasol missed 23 games last season with, yup, foot problems.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> also - gasol missed 23 games last season with, yup, foot problems.


Gasol played 80 games last year.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> Gasol would be a great fit but I don't think I would be willing to deal Thomas and the Knicks pick unprotected next year for him and I will tell you why. For all we know Thomas could be the next Amare, would you rather have Amare or Gasol? For all we know that Knicks pick could net us Oden who is the closest thing to a surefire modern day Shaq scouts have seen in years. Would you rather have a young Shaq or Gasol? So, while Gasol is undoubtedly talented and a great fit, unless Memphis would like a Gordon/Deng package or a Gordon/Brown/protected top 5 pick, I think we should wait and see what our bird in hand will do first.


I'd be much more willing to do a PJ/Thomas/Noc deal for Gasol than giving up the NY pick as well. Out 07 pick should theoretically be replacing Wallace as he winds down.

Depth chart:
C Wallace/Allen/Marty
PF Gasol/Sweetney
SF Deng/Khryapa/Griffin
SG Gordon/Sefolosha
PG Hinrich/Duhon

Our frontcourt depth would be hurting but I doubt we instantly win a championship next season post trade. And again, that's what our 07 pick will be for.

Now would Memphis do it? I guess it depends on what other offers are on the table and how much Gasol forces their hand.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Ron Cey said:


> If Paxson wouldn't trade Tyrus Thomas to get Pau Gasol to team with Ben Wallace, then Paxson is an idiot.
> 
> But ROY, if I recall, you aren't real high on Gasol as a general matter, are you? Am I remembering that correctly?


Nah, Gasol is pretty damn good...

I just don't think he's great....

I'd love to have him though


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

While hypotheicals are fun (and, yes, I make that deal today), the earliest we can combine PJ with other players in a trade is mid-December. The entire NBA is going to know a whole lot about TT and the Knicks by them. 

This could go from seeming roughly even to a landslide one way or the other in that amount of time.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> also - gasol missed 23 games last season with, yup, foot problems.


It was two seasons ago, and it was an unrelated foot problem (plantar fasciatis). 

Outside of that, he's missed six games in five seasons. While playing a boatload of international ball in the offseason.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Rawse, while we've got you visiting our board, what do you think of the deal proposed above: Gasol for Tyrus Thomas, PJ Brown, and the Bulls/Knicks pick in 07 unprotected?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Rhyder said:


> I'd be much more willing to do a PJ/Thomas/Noc deal for Gasol than giving up the NY pick as well. Out 07 pick should theoretically be replacing Wallace as he winds down.
> 
> Depth chart:
> C Wallace/Allen/Marty
> ...



I really really don't want to give up Noc, that guy is the heart and soul or our team and fast on his way to becoming a special player. I guess Deng would be more expendable for me even though I like him almost as much as Noc. I agree about the pick though.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> While hypotheicals are fun (and, yes, I make that deal today), the earliest we can combine PJ with other players in a trade is mid-December. The entire NBA is going to know a whole lot about TT and the Knicks by them.
> 
> This could go from seeming roughly even to a landslide one way or the other in that amount of time.


True, and it's easier to trade more known quantities rather than unknown. If TT seems to be the real deal, I doubt we even entertain a Gasol trade.

I'm more in favor of keeping the NY pick unconditionally. We're not going to have any money any time soon to pick up a quality big man. Next year's big man draft is seemingly great. Even if the Knicks are near .500, we might be able to pick up a Tiago Splitter level player, who could theoretically have been as high as top 5 in this past draft (buyout issues ignored).


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> While hypotheicals are fun (and, yes, I make that deal today), the earliest we can combine PJ with other players in a trade is mid-December. The entire NBA is going to know a whole lot about TT and the Knicks by them. This could go from seeming roughly even to a landslide one way or the other in that amount of time.


I believe we learned this summer that teams under the cap can actually trade for players recently acquired without waiting 3 months. I'm not sure if this difference also applies to recently signed draft picks. I will consult Larry ****'s FAQ when I get home (currently typing on my smartphone).


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

ace20004u said:


> Thats true and for all we know it is conceivable (if not likely) that Thomas is BETTER than Gasol. Of course, the good thing about a trade for Gasol is that he will be out with a foot injury so it would let the Bulls get a glimpse of Thomas first and see how far along he is and what they would be giving up.



Yeah, but you could make that argument for anyone. For all we know it is conceivable Thomas is better than Jordan, Russell, Bird, Wilt, and Magic in their primes _combined_.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> I really really don't want to give up Noc, that guy is the heart and soul or our team and fast on his way to becoming a special player. I guess Deng would be more expendable for me even though I like him almost as much as Noc. I agree about the pick though.


The guy is tough as nails and his shot definately improved in his sophomore season. However, I don't see him as more than super role player--Josh Howard/Tayshaun Prince type. I think Deng will reach that level and have a better chance at surpassing that level.

I love Noc, but I love selling high too (and sure, he does have a chance to move higher). I would be just as comfortable giving up Deng instead of Noc in that deal. It was my assumption that Noc's value was higher and is much more a West type player.

I'm perfectly comfortable in letting Deng/Khryapa/Griffin handling the SF slot while still giving Deng developmental time.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

piri said:


> http://www.marca.es/edicion/marca/305/nba/es/desarrollo/689129.html
> 
> Sorry, but this is in spanish.
> I will translate thje most important things. This is for a Pau's press conference in Spain.
> ...


Well i used the google translator avaliable here http://www.google.com/language_tools to translate the article, it isnt the best, but it gives you an idea...



> Without a doubt, I have thought about changing of club in some occasion, because they are spending the years and I do not like to suspend to me. Very I am been thankful to Memphis because it bet by me from the first day and because it has given the possibility me of prevailing, and I value much, but, simultaneously, I would like to be in a competitive equipment with options to everything " Undoubtly, I've thought in change of team sometimes, because Time is running and I don't like the stop progressing. I'm very gratefull to Memphis because they believe in me since the first day and they gave me thay option to success, and I estimates it too high, but, AT the same Time, I would like to be in real a competitive team with options. “I am trying that that equipment is Memphis, but arrives a point in which it is difficult. I suppose that I will consider a possible quite in the future immediate change if they do not improve the things


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

You guys keep talking about sending TT, but um nobody's thought about what West would WANT.

Why would he want TT if he has Rudy Gay, Hakim Warrick, Stromile Swift & Alexzander Johnson?

I'm sure he'd be after our guards, PJ and that NY pick more than anything else.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Why would you want to trade a stud like Gordon over Thomas or a pick (which might not even be lottery, since Isiah's job is on the line).

PG-Kirk Hinrich/Chris Duhon
SG-Ben Gordon/Thabo Sefolosha
SF-Andres Nocioni/Luol Deng
PF-Pau Gasol/Michael Sweetney
C- Ben Wallace/Maciej Lampe

Thats a contender there.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Rawse, while we've got you visiting our board, what do you think of the deal proposed above: Gasol for Tyrus Thomas, PJ Brown, and the Bulls/Knicks pick in 07 unprotected?


It's actually a very nice deal and not a complete ripoff like I'd expect to read some places online. I'd personally decline it because Gasol's a proven All-Star, and All-Stars aren't something this franchise sees every day. In fact, Gasol's the only one the Vancouver/Memphis franchise has ever had. With that in mind, I'd like to keep the one thing we have to feel good about than trade him for the chance that either Thomas or the draft pick will be a better player. 

IMO, the draft pick the only part that stands a chance of being a better complete basketball player than Gasol, and only because it has the chance of being Greg Oden. I like Tyrus Thomas, but I don't feel he, for instance, will ever be capable of leading a team to 50 wins with a James Posey-type as the second option.

Any title-contending franchise needs a post-oriented big man. Gasol's one of the most adept scorers in the league around the basket, and he's also one of the best playmaking big men. He's not a superstar, but he's something any franchise would love to have. Now I'd rather the franchise builds around that and supplements that instead of trading it away for players we _hope_ will be better than the fairly high standards Gasol has set in Memphis.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

sloth said:


> Why would you want to trade a stud like Gordon over Thomas or a pick (which might not even be lottery, since Isiah's job is on the line).
> 
> PG-Kirk Hinrich/Chris Duhon
> SG-Ben Gordon/Thabo Sefolosha
> ...


It's not really about what you'd WANT to trade. It's about what Jerry West would be interested in. OBVIOUSLY he needs a guard of the future and a center of the future. So the NY pick and Hinrich or Gordon are definintely gonna be in the mix plus PJ.

Oh, and that pick will be LOTTO. Even if they win 35 games, it's still a lotto pick. Last year 40 game winners were lotto picks.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> I'd give them P.J. Brown, Tyrus Thomas, and the 2007 Knicks' pick without any strings attached. According to the RealGM trade checker, that deal is CBA compliant.
> 
> Is that a lot? Yup. Is Gasol worth it? Absolutely -- we have no idea what Thomas or the Knicks pick is going to end up being. Gasol is an excellent player who brings everything we need and then some, and he just turned 26.
> 
> I think the Bulls would probably win at least one NBA title within the next four seasons if my proposed deal happened, and multiple titles wouldn't be out of the question. That team would have tons of front-court/back-court balance, great offense-defense balance, youth, athleticism, etc.


if the grizz went for it i'd be for it.

that would in my estimation make the bulls a true title contender.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

The truth is, they need size up front if we take Gasol away. That's what we don't have. The next best thing is a pick and cap space.

We don't give up Tyrus for Gasol yet. I say we showcase Noch, then trade Brown + Nocioni + Sweetney and a 2008 first round pick for Gasol + filler. They can pick and choose what they like, but all three of those guys are expiring contracts, I think. The pick might pay off for them later. And Nocioni might be a star. Miller, Noch, and Gay is an extremely nice wing rotation. Brown and Sweetney provide enough size for now, and I think Hakim Warrick is going to develop more nicely than most people think. Stromile Swift isn't completely useless either.

By the way, I know we don't think this, but the fluff piece seems to reflect that some people think that Gay and Thomas are similar players, and they just might be.

Noch might be a star, but if we can get Gasol, then have Deng, TT, and Gasol rotation through 3/4... you make the trade. We add stellar talent in 2007, a center to develop behind Wallace.

Hinrich/Duhon
Gordon/Thabo
Deng/Thomas
Gasol/Thomas
Wallace/Gasol

Very strong 7-man rotation, with five starters that will play 35+ mpg and our two rookies providing help off the bench, developing their games. I hope we end up with a guy like Hawes, Thabeet or even Hibbert next year, to start taking pressure off of Big Ben.

The problem with the rotation is a certain lack of depth, but maybe our pine-riding types will develop into functional players, like Marty Andrews, maybe Aaron Miles if we get him, maybe even Viktor Khyrapa. As it is, I'm ok with guys like Griffin and Malik Allen filling in the blanks, and there's always those types available. But the starters will have to be more consistent.

However, the upside is incredible talent. Gasol is a very good shotblocker, as good as Wallace is, and he is very slippery in the post. Tyrus Thomas will continue to develop and with Hinrich/Gordon/Deng/Thomas/Gasol lineups, we've got some serious athleticism and offensive firepower, as well as defensive intensity at almost every spot.

This makes for a perfect "consolidation" trade, especially because it looks like Memphis needs to start thinking about shaking things up there. Getting Gay is the beginning of it for them; Noch + a pick and clearing cap space is a very nice prospect to consider for a quick path to rebuilding.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> T
> trade Brown + Nocioni + Sweetney and a 2008 first round pick for Gasol + filler.


That wouldn't even get West to think about picking up the phone to discuss.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

johnston797 said:


> That wouldn't even get West to think about picking up the phone to discuss.


yeah, that's a pretty bad trade proposal lol

They have no need for Sweetney at all, Brown yes...Nocioni? not really.

Anything less than the NY pick/Brown & Gordon or Hinrich isn't even getting discussed. West isn't stupid. And you best believe he'd ship off Gordon before Hinrich. Plus it wouldn't matter much since you'd be getting 20 + out of Gasol anyway.

G Hinrich
G Sefolosha
F Deng / Nocioni
F Gasol / Thomas
C Wallace


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> That wouldn't even get West to think about picking up the phone to discuss.



That was my feeling too unless he means the Knicks 07 pick, and then it is only worth discussion and probably not something West would do. Of course, if Gasol is DEMANDING a trade that makes things a little different.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Rawse said:


> It's actually a very nice deal and not a complete ripoff like I'd expect to read some places online. I'd personally decline it because Gasol's a proven All-Star, and All-Stars aren't something this franchise sees every day. In fact, Gasol's the only one the Vancouver/Memphis franchise has ever had. With that in mind, I'd like to keep the one thing we have to feel good about than trade him for the chance that either Thomas or the draft pick will be a better player.
> 
> IMO, the draft pick the only part that stands a chance of being a better complete basketball player than Gasol, and only because it has the chance of being Greg Oden. I like Tyrus Thomas, but I don't feel he, for instance, will ever be capable of leading a team to 50 wins with a James Posey-type as the second option.
> 
> Any title-contending franchise needs a post-oriented big man. Gasol's one of the most adept scorers in the league around the basket, and he's also one of the best playmaking big men. He's not a superstar, but he's something any franchise would love to have. Now I'd rather the franchise builds around that and supplements that instead of trading it away for players we _hope_ will be better than the fairly high standards Gasol has set in Memphis.


Nice post, Rawse. What Gasol does on a nightly basis is pretty amazing considering how slowly Memphis plays and how focused the opposition is on stopping him (due to his relatively not-that-good supporting cast).

And please note that I didn't dream this up out of the blue and say it's an offer West couldn't refuse. This is all working under the assumption that Gasol truly is disgruntled and wants out.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

i stand corrected on the foot injury thing, scott and rawse, thank you. it was the season before last. that said, the man still has a screw in his left foot and won't really be playing at full speed until january (guessing).

oh, and if nocioni is in the deal, then _no thank you._


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

My God yes do the SM trade, assuming he's healthy.

This is the type of move that would signal Win The Title Now has taken hold at the Berto Center..


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

I'll sign on to the ScottMay proposal as well. I understand ROY and ace's apprehension, but to me, the fact that Pau is a legit 20/10 and change player who fills out our frontcourt perfectly carries the day. Tyrus and the Knicks pick could end up being outstanding, but likely not for a few years if ever. The trade keeps all of our "win now" players on board and adds what I consider to be a borderline superstar to the mix. I think we could win the whole tamale with the post-trade roster.

But given the fact that Pau's out a while, we'll probably get a glimpse at what TT has to offer, plus get an idea where the Knicks pick might land. As Johnston pointed out, the value of this offer could change dramatically by the time Pau gets back on the floor.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I haven't posted in a while, but I'd do this trade in heartbeat. For reasons stated before, it completes our roster. We get a legit post player. Gasol is decent on D too. We will have a great frontcourt, and I hope West would not persue Gordon or Kirk. I don't think Pax would trade Kirk, maybe Gordon, but thats hard to say. Gordon is a perfect player to have along Pau. It would give our young guys so many more open looks.

In terms of Noc or Deng, I don't know what West would want. Having Rudy Gay would make me think he would not want Deng. As Gay could be as good as him. Noce can play some PF, and is a hardnosed player. I would absolutely hate to give him up (I'd pick Noce over Deng today), but Gasol is the better player. PJ Brown's contract will have significant value. I would love to give up expiring contracts and the NYK pick. From all the talk, and what Pax sees in Tyrus, I wanna keep the kid. But if you get rid of the NYK pick, you lose that small chance of landing Oden or Durant. 

I see us winning the East 2-3x over the span of Wallace's contract if we can make this move. 

I didn't check trade checker, but it'd be best if we kept Noce and Deng, and got rid of PJ, Sweets, Tyrus or NYK, and if they need a PG, Duhon, since all their guys are old, other than Lowry.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

This is still wish-ful thinking. Ya'll are trying to flood them with postions they already have stocked, when it's quite evident what their team needs.

*Still trying to figure out why JW would want TT*


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## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

The ROY said:


> *Still trying to figure out why JW would want TT*


I second that.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Here's a paraphased translation of the part of the article regarding his comments about switching teams. I changed everything to how it would be said in English:



> "If things don't improve, I will make a change."
> 
> Pau Gasol muses over changing teams.
> 
> ...


*My interpretation of the word stagnant is that he's unhappy the Memphis keeps getting swept out of the playoffs and not improving. Bear in mind he didn't officially say that. 

Link (Spanish)


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

What would we look like if this deal went through?

Hinrich, Duhon, Miles?
Gordon, Sefalosha, Griffin
Nocioni, Deng, Khryapa
Gasol, Sweetney, Lampe?
Wallace, Allen, Schenscher

Yup. I'd do that deal. It would suck to miss out on Oden, and there are several other players in the 07 draft that may be stars, but I'd still do it.

Who else would Memphis want from our roster if Thomas wasn't an ideal fit? Gordon? They have a lot of money committed to Damon Stoudamire. Now that would be a really short backcourt. I doubt they'd want Nocioni or Deng as much after drafting Rudy Gay. Hinrich is probably not for sale, even for Gasol (though I would certainly consider trading him in a package for Pau), and Wallace isn't going anywhere before he's arrived. Everyone else should be available for Pau. That means Du, Noc, Deng, Gordon, Tyrus, Thabo, Sweets, PJ, and the 2007 pick. That's a lot to choose from. You'd think we'd be at least a candidate for the trade.

And as a few have commented on earlier in the thread, a Wallace/Gasol frontcourt would be freaking awesome, better than Sheed and Wallace I think. Talk about two players who totally compliment each other.


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

let me give you a proposition to everyone.

would you still pull the trade off before his ready to player after his injury?

or would you wait untill a few weeks after his back and healthy??

isn't anyone concerned about his injury?? espically an injury to his foot of all places, being a basketball player and all.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

You suppose Gasol is worth the risk, But at the same time, if at any point hes being dangled in trade, thats when your too good to be true detector should begin to vibrate slightly.
It relates to that ancient Chinese proverb: 'Beware signing or trading for big men with sore feet'


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> What would we look like if this deal went through?
> 
> Hinrich, Duhon, Miles?
> Gordon, Sefalosha, Griffin
> ...


If we made that trade, and Memphis wound up with Oden? They definintely would of gotten the better of us. EASILY

Which is why I wouldn't do it.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

The ROY said:


> If we made that trade, and Memphis wound up with Oden? They definintely would of gotten the better of us. EASILY
> 
> Which is why I wouldn't do it.


The odds are extremely low we will get Oden. It's 25% at the end of the year as a best case scenario. I suppose it's possible someone like a Kevin Durant has a better career than a Gasol as well. Still, I'll take Pau. I think he's exactly what our team needs. I think Pau has several All Star seasons in front of him, especially on the right team.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

If we're turning down adding all-stars in positions we need with a skillset we need to be in the oden sweepstakes, then that's definitely "win later" mode.

Kind of makes the Wallace signing silly if that's the game plan.

Given that Wallace is signed, I hope that's not the game plan.

This is all pure conjecture, but this seems like a situation we should be all over. 

Grizzlies West seems like they don’t mind taking a few steps back to try to go for it all in a few years. If Gasol isn’t on board with that, then this deal would seemingly be attractive to the Grizzlies… and the Bulls.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> If we're turning down adding all-stars in positions we need with a skillset we need to be in the oden sweepstakes, then that's definitely "win later" mode.
> 
> Kind of makes the Wallace signing silly if that's the game plan.
> 
> ...


the circumstantial evidence suggests the Bulls would be all over things like this. We have multiple statemts by the Bulls GM that he seeks that one special kind of guy that puts the Bulls over the top.
We have the statement by Wallace that he would like the Bulls to keep pursuing Garnett.

Oh, if a player is out there twisting, it seems the Bulls are going to try to find a way to land him if we can take these kinds of comments seriously. I'm more iffy on Garnett actually (because of the worn Knee and his age). I want the real deal KG, or a fresh as a daisy Gasol without worrying if He'll become the next Zydrunas Ilgauskas. If the Player in question is going to play at a high level for at least 5 years, go for it probably. Questions remain about that.

This team can keep getting better from within don't forget with or without a trade for a whole gaggle of years, probably 4-5. That takes patience. Its not like we're waiting to be a playoff team. We already are with plenty of room for improvement for years to come as is standing pat.

I'll need to be given some reasonable assurances before I can say its a no brainer for this particular player. Other unknown deals can likely achieve what we want too, not just Gasol and Garnett.
For Gasol, like i said, if he becomes avail, I've got to trust that Jerry West knows what he's doing and there are red flags to consider. Bigs like Gasol don't normally become avail unless red flags exist

....I will agree some kind of trade could happen in the next couple years. Doesn't need to be right now though


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Yah, we'll see if any deal is made to put a champion level team around Ben Wallace while he's still near his peak.

Seems like Win (the title) Later (2-3 years) is the plan of attack.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> Yah, we'll see if any deal is made to put a champion level team around Ben Wallace while he's still near his peak.
> 
> Seems like Win (the title) Later (2-3 years) is the plan of attack.


tenatively, I believe you are correct. There may not be any solid direction other than a wait and see on the kids, which once evaluated will set in motion a couple of imagined scenarios by braintrust. However, what you say feels most likely (2-3 year plan)

The direction they take is probably that^^^
... conditional to developmental events on the court.
i.e. to deviate from the 2-3 year plan, Thabo and Tyrus (and or Ben) need to go crazy right away, or look like future all stars.... the Knicks implode again (the value of the swap becomes huge) and the Bulls feel confident enough to trade any of our favorite trade targets at the deadline for some stud. Its going to depend on whether or not the new kids pan out big enough to be mega trade bait or keepers to cover an imediate trade to win quickly or set us up for yet the final rebuil(t).


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

TT + the pick just didn't look good enough, and I'm actually thinking that Tyrus Thomas by himself will be worth Pau Gasol in two years. Maybe much more.

You can say it's not a sure thing, that it's speculation, etc., but the fact is, we've tossed lots of talent out before. I remember posting on this board when we traded Artest that while the deal looked "good" at the time for a very interesting Jalen Rose (no longer interesting), that Artest by himself will make this deal look terrible later. Tyrus Thomas doesn't have promising NBA seasons under his belt yet, so it's not the same comparison, but I feel almost as strongly about it.

The pick, while it may not be Oden, is still going to make that an uneven trade, because the 2007 draft class has way more talent than most classes in recent memory. It won't look like the 2003 year class, but it might look a lot like the 1999 class (Brand, Matrix, Artest, Baron, Odom, Rip, Franchise, Wally, Kirilenko, Ginobili). In my totally speculative opinion, even if our 2007 pick turns into James Posey, I think What Tyrus Will Be + James Posey > Pau Gasol.

I'm not underrating Pau. The guy is a beast in a lot of ways, and people forget how defensively strong he is because of his ability to play on offense. Between him and Dirk, I'd actually choose Pau to wear the title, "Euro-KG", because he can play serious D. He's a legit big man and a serious force in every game, and he's just turned 26, so he's got at least 4 or 5 years left in prime mode.

But why give up What Tyrus Will Be + James Posey to get him? And what if James Posey actually becomes Joakim Noah, Brandan Wright, Kevin Durant... or another possible NBA superstar?

It's a "what if" game, but if you set James Posey as a total floor on the pick (Corey Brewer from Florida is 24th on nbadraft.net, and he's like a Posey), if I measure my speculative value on Tyrus, I would not make the trade. Nope.

My deal (Noch + Brown + Sweetney + pick), while being terrible on talent, means a TON in terms of Cap Space (still important). And don't underrate Nocioni; the guy is still just "getting used" to playing in the NBA, and it's not a complete folly to say that Andres Nocioni is the BEST PLAYER on the team. It's probably wrong; I'd put him behind Hinrich and Big Ben. But it's arguable, and he's going to continue to make a better name for himself this season. His handles have dramatically improved since arriving (still not great but they used to be TERRIBLE). He doesn't look stiff, he has a nose for the ball, he has serious range but can score in any way you can think of. He's the best FT shooter on our team. He plays intense defense and is the guy every coach wants, the guy that isn't afraid to bump and elbow his way on the biggest and baddest guys out there.

Memphis NEEDS to rebuild. They need some salary cap relief, and they could use a Nocioni type along with a long-term pick. What they don't need is another Rudy Gay.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

Showtyme said:


> TT + the pick just didn't look good enough, and I'm actually thinking that Tyrus Thomas by himself will be worth Pau Gasol in two years. Maybe much more.
> 
> You can say it's not a sure thing, that it's speculation, etc., but the fact is, we've tossed lots of talent out before. I remember posting on this board when we traded Artest that while the deal looked "good" at the time for a very interesting Jalen Rose (no longer interesting), that Artest by himself will make this deal look terrible later. Tyrus Thomas doesn't have promising NBA seasons under his belt yet, so it's not the same comparison, but I feel almost as strongly about it.
> 
> ...



:clap: :clap: :clap: 

What a great post.

Yes, Cap Space is still very, very important. Over the last 3 summers, *Cap Space has allowed:

The Bulls to sign Ben Wallace, who in the last 5 seasons has only been:*

-2006 All-Defensive Team 
-2005-06 NBA Defensive Player of the Year 
-2005 All-Defensive Team 
-2004-05 NBA Defensive Player of the Year 
-Became the fifth player in NBA history to record 100 blocks and 100 steals in five consecutive seasons in 2005 
-2005 All-Star Reserve 
-2004 All-Defensive Team 
-2004 All-NBA Second Team 
-2003 All-NBA Second Team 
-2002-03 NBA Defensive Player of the Year 
-2002 All-NBA Third Team 
-Named the 2001-02 NBA Defensive Player of the Year 
-Named to the NBA All-Defensive team in 2001-02 
-One of four players in NBA history to lead the league in rebounds and blocks during the same season (01-02) - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 1975-76, Bill Walton 1976-77 and Hakeem Olajuwon 1989-90 


*The Suns to sign Steve Nash, who in his 2 seasons in Phoenix:*

-2005-06 NBA MVP 
-2004-05 NBA MVP 
-All-NBA First Team, 2004-05, 2005-06
-NBA assists champion, 2004-05, 2005-06
-Took the Suns from 29-53 the season before he arrived to 2 consecutive conference finals


*The Heat to sign Lamar Odom*, who they were able to trade for Shaq and an NBA title (with some major help, of course) 

*The Wiz to sign Gilbert Arenas,* who turned them from complete nobodies to a playoff team.


So as much as a lot of people like to make fun of Cap Space and discount it's importance, it is still pretty important in the NBA.

And as much as I would hate to lose Noc, who was quite possibly the Bulls' best player in April and the Playoffs, for Gasol? I'd have to do it.


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## mgolding (Jul 20, 2002)

Serious foot injury bothering anyone?

I would want to see Gasol playing for a month or so as his peak before I considered trading for the guy. Foot injuries can ruin careers pretty easily.

Im not going to speculate who the Bulls would or should trade for Gasol but a deal or some sort could have a similar effect to the Pistons acquiring Rasheed a few years ago. Gasol and Wallace would be a pretty nice combination, no doubt about that.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

bullsville said:


> So as much as a lot of people like to make fun of Cap Space and discount it's importance, it is still pretty important in the NBA.
> 
> And as much as I would hate to lose Noc, who was quite possibly the Bulls' best player in April and the Playoffs, for Gasol? I'd have to do it.


Memphis' biggest free agency signing _ever_ is James Posey, probably followed by Brian Cardinal. It's just not a hotspot for big-name free agents like a Miami or a Los Angeles. Or even a Chicago or Phoenix. It's Memphis, Tennessee. Tennessee. Graceland, Beale Street, barbeque pits and nothing else to do. The franchise is up for sale, and our GM will be retiring soon. With that deal, there's no guarantee of team success _or_ stability, and the city's recreation doesn't compare to other cities. Steve Nash and Ben Wallace no doubt signed free agent deals with the Suns and Bulls for not only the money, but also for the promising supporting casts that would be able to supplement their talents and parlay that potentially into something meaningful. Cap space only means something if you have something promising to sell other than money.

If the Grizzlies trade Gasol for cap space and a draft pick - essentially what Showtyme is suggesting Memphis does - it would literally be tearing the team down to nothing. As in no brick left on top of another. Nocioni would be our best player, and despite his rep on this board, Mike Miller/Andres Nocioni/Damon Stoudamire is no Amare Stoudemire/Joe Johnson/Shawn Marion. Nocioni probably won't be cheap after this season either, and Brown/Sweetney wouldn't be there past the season. That would give the franchise loads of cap room, but as a free agent destination, absolutely zero selling points.

It'd be a disaster, and with all due respect, a trade proposal like that doesn't deserve to be acknowledged.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Rawse said:


> Memphis' biggest free agency signing _ever_ is James Posey, probably followed by Brian Cardinal. It's just not a hotspot for big-name free agents like a Miami or a Los Angeles. Or even a Chicago or Phoenix. It's Memphis, Tennessee. Tennessee. Graceland, Beale Street, barbeque pits and nothing else to do. The franchise is up for sale, and our GM will be retiring soon. With that deal, there's no guarantee of team success _or_ stability, and the city's recreation doesn't compare to other cities.


No wonder Gasol is thinking about leaving. 

Truth is though, the team will be easier to sell if they are under the salary cap and have draft choices in the bag.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

McBulls said:


> No wonder Gasol is thinking about leaving.
> 
> Truth is though, the team will be easier to sell if they are under the salary cap and have draft choices in the bag.


After Eddie Jones and Jake Tsakalidis come off the books (10 months away), the team will be under the cap.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

Rawse said:


> *Memphis' biggest free agency signing ever is James Posey, probably followed by Brian Cardinal.* It's just not a hotspot for big-name free agents like a Miami or a Los Angeles. Or even a Chicago or Phoenix. It's Memphis, Tennessee. Tennessee. Graceland, Beale Street, barbeque pits and nothing else to do. The franchise is up for sale, and our GM will be retiring soon. With that deal, there's no guarantee of team success _or_ stability, and the city's recreation doesn't compare to other cities. Steve Nash and Ben Wallace no doubt signed free agent deals with the Suns and Bulls for not only the money, but also for the promising supporting casts that would be able to supplement their talents and parlay that potentially into something meaningful. Cap space only means something if you have something promising to sell other than money.
> 
> If the Grizzlies trade Gasol for cap space and a draft pick - essentially what Showtyme is suggesting Memphis does - it would literally be tearing the team down to nothing. As in no brick left on top of another. Nocioni would be our best player, and despite his rep on this board, Mike Miller/Andres Nocioni/Damon Stoudamire is no Amare Stoudemire/Joe Johnson/Shawn Marion. Nocioni probably won't be cheap after this season either, and Brown/Sweetney wouldn't be there past the season. That would give the franchise loads of cap room, but as a free agent destination, absolutely zero selling points.
> 
> It'd be a disaster, and with all due respect, a trade proposal like that doesn't deserve to be acknowledged.


The Grizz have *never* been under the cap, have they? Not since they were a sub-30 win team, certainly, and not really before that.

When you are giving out $10 million/year contracts to Shareef and Big Country, you aren't going to be under the cap, even when you are a bad team. Going back and looking at their team salaries in the past, it's truly hard to believe some of the money they paid out to crap players (like BC, Dickerson, Ike Austin).

When you only have the MLE to offer, you aren't going to do any better than James Posey.

That being said, I wouldn't trade Gasol for the Knicks pick, Nocioni, Sweetney and Brown if I were the Grizz. You would have to throw in a bad contract or two for more expiring deals, maybe something like:

Brown, Nocioni, Sweetney, Allen, Khryapa, the Knicks' pick

for 

Gasol, Cardinal, Stoudamire

That would give the Grizz about $30 million in cap space next summer before they resigned Nocioni. And a nice young core of Miller, Nocioni, Lowry, the Knicks' pick, Gay, Warrick, Swift... that's not bad.

And all that being said, the Grizz could still probably do better if they wanted to deal Gasol. But if they wanted to have tons of cap space and 2 lottery picks in next summer's "super-draft" to go with what they have, it's not a bad deal IMHO.

But if I were Memphis, I'd want Deng instead of Nocioni, and I'd probably want Gordon as well. And if you add Deng and Gordon, I'd want Chicago to take back Miller and his contract- something like

Gordon, Deng, Knicks' pick, Allen, Brown, Khryapa and Sweetney 

for 

Gasol, Cardinal and Miller

Next summer, the Grizz would have Gordon, Deng, Gay, Lowry, Warrick, the Knicks' pick, their own pick, and at least $20 million in cap space. That might not be enough to get a big free agent next summer, but it might be worth taking a chance on with the young core you would have.

And it would leave the Bulls

Hinrich/Duhon
Miller/Sefolosha
Nocioni/Griffin
Gasol/Thomas
Wallace/Andriuskevicius

With Cardinal in there somewhere.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> I'd give them P.J. Brown, Tyrus Thomas, and the 2007 Knicks' pick without any strings attached. According to the RealGM trade checker, that deal is CBA compliant.
> 
> Is that a lot? Yup. Is Gasol worth it? Absolutely -- we have no idea what Thomas or the Knicks pick is going to end up being. Gasol is an excellent player who brings everything we need and then some, and he just turned 26.
> 
> I think the Bulls would probably win at least one NBA title within the next four seasons if my proposed deal happened, and multiple titles wouldn't be out of the question. That team would have tons of front-court/back-court balance, great offense-defense balance, youth, athleticism, etc.


Sub Deng in for Thomas and I would be a supporter of such a deal

Giving up Tyrus Thomas however would , IMO , prove to be a blunder of monumental proportions


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> I don't think Gasol's going to fetch you Dwyane Wade or LeBron or Dwight Howard. If Memphis decides to trade him, it would to rebuild, not reload with a better player.
> 
> Tyrus Thomas plus what's likely going to be a pretty high pick in an impact draft and a $9 million (give or take) expiring contract is an awfully enticing deal, imo. The only reason I'd even consider parting with them is that I don't think Thomas and the 2007 pick are going to be ready to contribute at the highest level before Ben Wallace's contract expires. The Bulls are in full-on "win now" mode, and Gasol would get them over the hump and then some.


I disagree with you on Thomas and when he will be a bona fide contributor 

However..

Supposing you are right why not just play Nocioni at the other forward spot where the forward spots be supported by Thomas, Crapper and Thabo?

We still do the "win now" thing without giving up Thomas who I believe is a superior talent to Deng


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

bullsville said:


> The Grizz have *never* been under the cap, have they? Not since they were a sub-30 win team, certainly, and not really before that.
> 
> When you are giving out $10 million/year contracts to Shareef and Big Country, you aren't going to be under the cap, even when you are a bad team. Going back and looking at their team salaries in the past, it's truly hard to believe some of the money they paid out to crap players (like BC, Dickerson, Ike Austin).
> 
> When you only have the MLE to offer, you aren't going to do any better than James Posey.


You also won't do much better than James Posey if you consider all the factors I've already laid out no matter if you have the MLE or $30 million in cap space. The only difference is that with $30 million, you'd get five James Poseys instead of one Vince Carter. Guys don't want to play in Tennessee, one of the worst markets in American professional sports today. No nightlife, no media coverage, no publicity. Unless you're just a really big Elvis fan or have a reserved personality, Memphis just can't compete with places like New York or Miami for big-name free agents. Unless the team pays way over market value, of course (Cardinal). And I say that as a person who's lived in Memphis for 14 years. It's not a ****hole - it's a nice enough place, actually - but I don't blame NBA players with millions of dollars for choosing to live and work somewhere on coast, for instance.



> That being said, I wouldn't trade Gasol for the Knicks pick, Nocioni, Sweetney and Brown if I were the Grizz. You would have to throw in a bad contract or two for more expiring deals, maybe something like:
> 
> Brown, Nocioni, Sweetney, Allen, Khryapa, the Knicks' pick
> 
> ...


That nice young core is hands down the worst team in the league. Which at least nets us a 25% chance at Oden. But still the worst team in the league. Who would we sign with that $30 million anyway? Vince Carter, for example? Why would he, at 30+ years old, want to sign in Memphis with a supporting cast that - without him - would be the worst team in the league? Miller and Nocioni are nice role players, the Knicks pick and Memphis' own pick could be something down the line, and Rudy Gay could be special in a couple seasons. Warrick and Swift are really nothing more than athletes and can't be counted on to truly contribute.

Not the most desirable cast of characters for a 30+-year-old superstar who wants to win a title while he can.

Is a 30-year-old Carter, for example, any more valuable than Gasol in the first place? I don't feel that way. By the time the rest of the main core (Gay, the two draft picks, Lowry) is ready to lead the team, Carter's contract is really more of an eyesore. It's basically trading Gasol for a good role player, a (likely) high draft pick, and the (unlikely) chance to sign one or two guys who are on Gasol's level. As a Grizz fan, I'd rather not. 

Also, even by keeping Gasol, the Grizzlies will still have $10M+ in cap next summer. If we're looking to sign a max-level player, it'd be much more palatable to try and trade a Stromile Swift, Damon Stoudamire or Mike Miller for cap space. If that doesn't work - hey - we still have enough for a Gerald Wallace-type plus a MLE-type guy. And our own (likely to be high) draft pick.

We could probably still challenge for one of the bottom five records with Gasol out until January. And with ticket sales sagging badly last season (another point I failed to mention earlier), I'd think for the front office that it'd send a better message to the fans to not intentionally tank the next two or three seasons.

So many Memphis fans - a lot of whom are impossible to please when it comes to college/pro sports - would abandon the franchise if we went back to the 30-win Vancouver days.

Does anyone want to fill me in? When was the last time a franchise totally tore itself to the ground and shed every player with value in order to clear cap...and it actually worked out for them?


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

mgolding said:


> Serious foot injury bothering anyone?


Gasol fractured his fifth metarsal. Believe it or not, the informal nickname for this in the orthopedic community is "the Martha's Vineyard fracture." 

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/15486562.htm

Pau's gonna be okay.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> Gasol fractured his fifth metarsal. Believe it or not, the informal nickname for this in the orthopedic community is "the Martha's Vineyard fracture."
> 
> http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/15486562.htm
> 
> Pau's gonna be okay.


Same injury Yao had and totally unrelated to his bout with plantar fasciitis in early-2005. Nothing to be concerned about.

What's more troubling is his insistence on playing every summer in whatever FIBA tournament they're having overseas.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Rawse said:


> Does anyone want to fill me in? When was the last time a franchise totally tore itself to the ground and shed every player with value in order to clear cap...and it actually worked out for them?


The Bulls, of course!

(We'll just ignore the fact that they haven't won dick yet, and that they put up the worst seven-year winning percentage in NBA history to get where they are today . . . )


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

For what its worth I think Memphis have some really good pieces around Gasol 

They are still a successful team with Pau at the Centrepiece of it and Jerry West in being Jerry West came up big with dealing Citizen Shane for Rudy Gay

Battier is a nice player and must have been a real hard give up..but there is no question Rudy Gay is the superior talent

I was calling Kyle Lowry as _the_ point guard of the draft and I truly believe he is going to be special

They have nice athleticism on the wings in Warrick, Gay and Dahntay Jones ...a nice shooting playmaking guard in Miller and solid vets in Stoudamire and Eddie Jones

Swift has a negative IQ but is athletic and can be effective when motivated and focused ..Cardinal is a bit of this and a bit of that but nothing special ..but the Grizz have got nothing upfront to support Gasol

They therefore need to be a running team and high shooting team with all that athleticism they have and of course use Gasol in the half court sets

They need more true point guard depth and some shooting depth and yeah a big meathead defensive big would help

I really think they should take a run at Michael Olowokandi to play a Dampier type role ( as he does alongside Dirk in Dallas ) and try and pick up an uptempo vet point..pity they traded Jason Williams ..I think they could really use him over Damon Stoudamire 

Stoudamire for White Chocolate ?

Probably wouldn't happen 

But types like Williams and Olowokandi and a role playing pure shooter would help

Maybe Luther Head would be a good trade target for the Grizz as well

Bottom line is Gasol can dick around as much as he wants...he's not going anywhere and there is still much greater capacity to build /develop pieces around him than what there is for say Kevin Garnett


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Rawse said:


> You also won't do much better than James Posey if you consider all the factors I've already laid out no matter if you have the MLE or $30 million in cap space. The only difference is that with $30 million, you'd get five James Poseys instead of one Vince Carter. Guys don't want to play in Tennessee, one of the worst markets in American professional sports today. No nightlife, no media coverage, no publicity. Unless you're just a really big Elvis fan or have a reserved personality, Memphis just can't compete with places like New York or Miami for big-name free agents. Unless the team pays way over market value, of course (Cardinal). And I say that as a person who's lived in Memphis for 14 years. It's not a ****hole - it's a nice enough place, actually - but I don't blame NBA players with millions of dollars for choosing to live and work somewhere on coast, for instance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rawse,

I sincerely doubt, for the reasons you have stated, that Memphis would trade Gasol to improve the status of the franchise, because that's nearly impossible to do -- even with lots of caproom. You've got that right as I see it. Now, that being said, if Pau ever gets to the point where he demands a trade, the Bulls would have a lot of attractive pieces to give back. Otherwise, you should hold onto him.


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## paxman (Apr 24, 2006)

i think the most important point here is that gasol does NOT want a trade.
he is far from demanding one. he's just expressing angst.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Now, that being said, if Pau ever gets to the point where he demands a trade, the Bulls would have a lot of attractive pieces to give back.


Very true.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> My deal (Noch + Brown + Sweetney + pick), while being terrible on talent, means a TON in terms of Cap Space (still important)...
> 
> Memphis NEEDS to rebuild. They need some salary cap relief, and they could use a Nocioni type along with a long-term pick. What they don't need is another Rudy Gay.


The deal still stinks for Memphis. (I'm assuming "pick" isn't 2007 Bulls/Knicks pick since your previous post was 2008 pick) And it's very little cap relief because Noch is going to get a big raise this upcomming summer.

For cap relief, a team needs to take on guys like Cardinal or Stoudamire.

Giving up a guy like Pau by himself is never, never cap relief. Having him locked in is better than the cap space.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> If we're turning down adding all-stars in positions we need with a skillset we need to be in the oden sweepstakes, then that's definitely "win later" mode.
> 
> Kind of makes the Wallace signing silly if that's the game plan.
> 
> ...


Exactly. 

Not to mention the statistical insignificance of getting Oden.

When you are competing for a championship, you do NOT turn down a *young* proven allstar at your weakest position because there is a CHANCE the Knicks end up with the worst record in the league which would afford you a 25% CHANCE that you get Oden (contingent, of course, on the CHANCE that he stays healthy and declares).

I don't know how to calculate percentages, but if I were to ballpark our likelihood of landing Oden I'd put it at about .015%. 

Essentially, there is no "Oden consideration" in evaluating this trade worth a second thought.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> The Bulls, of course!
> 
> (We'll just ignore the fact that they haven't won dick yet, and that they put up the worst seven-year winning percentage in NBA history to get where they are today . . . )


Orlando did it too when they went for the Tim Duncan/Grant Hill sweepstakes (had to settle for Hill and T-Mac). 

I think Atlanta did it too, which has worked out about as well as it did for the Bulls. 

Denver did it too under Kiki, except with more success. 

Scott, did the Bulls suck for 7 years or 6 years? I think it was 6. And not to nitpick, but their winning percentage over those 6 years was not just the worst 6 year run in NBA history - it was the worst 6 year run of any team in any of the "big 4" major professional sports. Worse than the Bengals, the Tigers, the Royals, the Clippers - you name it. 

Lets not under-sell the horror. :biggrin:


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Well, my trade has been effectively shot down. I submit to Rawse.

But the main thing is that I didn't know they had so much cap space coming anyway. I'm not used to thinking that Memphis has any cap space.

And this is definitely speculation, but the difference between Nocioni and Pau Gasol is going to shrink. On a team of our level of talent, Nocioni really might be the most contributing player. Maybe not most valuable (Hinrich) and no longer Mr. Dirty Work (Ben Wallace) but possibly as good a scorer as Ben Gordon and a much tougher defender, with versatility. He's not a throw-in anymore. The way I think of Nocioni when I put together these fantasy trades has dramatically changed since last year, when there was sort of a "Deng's just as good and needs more space, so Noch regrettably is goodbye".

But hey, it was just a shot in the dark. If we made it a 2007 pick, it might be closer to an even trade.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Unfortunately I don't have time at the moment to go through and respond to all the good posts, but my inclination is to offer anything on our team except Hinrich, Wallace and Tyrus.

Yes, Tyrus is off the table. Gasol is a very good player but I'm sold on Thomas being a special player. Gasol is not special. He's good, but even without considering the injury, which is worth considering, I just don't think he's _that _good. Thomas will be a high quality player in a year's time, so the win now issue isn't an issue to me.

A workable deal should center around giving the Grizzlies 
1) Cap relief
2) Quality players (Gordon, Deng)
3) Future considerations (The better of our picks next year)

Bulls trade:
Brown, Gordon, Deng, Sweetney, Knicks Pick, $3M cash

Grizzlies trade:
Gasol, Cardinal, Damon Stoudamire

Grizzlies
1- Gordon, Atkins, Lowry
2- Miller, E. Jones, D. Jones
3- Gay, Deng_, Miller, Warrick_
4- _Deng_, Brown, Warrick, Sweetney
5- Tsakalidis, Swift

Mike Miller is theoretically a good guy to play next to Gordon since he can somewhat run an offense. I'd play Deng at the 4 and see what happens. Lots of talent, plus a decent pick.

Bulls
1- Duhon, Stoudamire
2- Hinrich, Sefalosha, Griffin
3- Nocioni, Thomas, Khryapa
4- Gasol, Cardinal_, Thomas, Nocioni_
5- Wallace, Allen, Andrews

At lest in the short run, Hinrich will play a fair amount at the two, but we've done well with that


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Mike, I can appreciate your stance on Tyrus. But if Gasol is "good, but not that good" then how can we give up 4 major assets for him (Gordon, Deng, Brown's contract AND an unprotected lottery pick)?

Thats just too much. No way.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Unfortunately I don't have time at the moment to go through and respond to all the good posts, but my inclination is to offer anything on our team except Hinrich, Wallace and Tyrus.
> 
> Yes, Tyrus is off the table. Gasol is a very good player but I'm sold on Thomas being a special player. Gasol is not special. He's good, but even without considering the injury, which is worth considering, I just don't think he's _that _good. Thomas will be a high quality player in a year's time, so the win now issue isn't an issue to me.
> 
> ...


Sorry. Too much. Paint me red/black and call me a homer, but Gordon + Deng + pick + cap space is what we were thinking to get Garnett, and some were saying it's too much, if I remember.

This is wayyy too much. I, too, think Tyrus is off the table, but not because of his value to the Bulls, but his redundancy in Memphis with Gay and to a lesser extent, Warrick.

And if Pau wants to leave, then he'll leave. Are you telling me he's a more marketable player than KG? There's no way. He might be younger, but there's no way he's better. If it weren't for Minnesota being so completely terrible, I think KG would easily still be considered the best player in the league. LeBron might be the "next" KG, of a more guard-version, but I haven't seen anyone like Garnett around at all. The closest thing might be Kirilenko, but he's a far second. After that, Pau, a distant third.

KG can guard 5 positions, handle, shoot with range, score from anywhere. If he had even DECENT defenders on his squad he would have easily gotten DPOY.

Pau Gasol is a valuable guy, a legit All-Star and consistent two-way player, but there's no way I'd put together a Garnett-worthy package to get him.

______________________

*My revised deal*

At the most, I'd give Deng + Duhon + next year's pick + cap space guys. 

- Deng is a proven asset and is getting way better
- Duhon fits in perfectly with the type of system they run there and he's actually the type that's somewhat likely to re-up in Memphis
- the pick is likely to be an All-Star, if not Oden himself
- and the cap space enables them to grab TWO good players next season as opposed to one. 

All they give up is a player that (presumably) doesn't want to play for your team. Is that really not a good deal?

Stoudamire/Duhon/Lowry
Miller/Eddie Jones
Deng/Gay/Cardinal
PJ Brown/Warrick
Swift/Sweetney/Big Jake

Not impressive, but not completely devoid of talent, and a hard-working bunch. NEXT year, add Durant, Wright, Hawes, or even possibly Oden to the mix. At the worst, add McRoberts or Thabeet. They also have their own pick, where they might find a role player or even a gem, like Tiago Splitter or Big Baby Davis. 

Throw money at Josh Howard and Chris Kaman, and settle for Pietrus and Mihm if you have to. 

Lowry/Duhon/Stoudamire
J. Howard/Miller
Deng/Gay
McRoberts/Big Baby
Kaman/Swift

The team's loaded. Howard, Gay, and Deng all have star potential; McRoberts might as well. Kaman is already a top-tier center and is as solid a 7-footer as you'd want. Kyle Lowry might become a stud point guard and at least will be a player. Gay is the supersub and guys like Duhon and Miller and Baby and Swift provide decent bench help that can step in and start if needed. That's a young, skilled, athletic team with talent and depth at almost every position, and an upgrade.

The trade enables them to have one extra max-worthy FA (say it's Kaman) and one extra draft pick (McRoberts, let's say, in a worst-case scenario, although it's more likely to be Durant or Young or someone hot), and Deng and Duhon. Let's say they didn't make the trade:

Lowry/Stoudamire
Josh Howard/Miller
Gay/Cardinal
Gasol/Big Baby
Swift/Big Jake

This team is WORSE.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Mike, I can appreciate your stance on Tyrus. But if Gasol is "good, but not that good" then how can we give up 4 major assets for him (Gordon, Deng, Brown's contract AND an unprotected lottery pick)?
> 
> Thats just too much. No way.


_Not that good_ compared to Thomas. Think of it in terms of say, a deal involving Gasol for Dwight Howard. Is there any + you could add to Gasol that would induce the Magic to trade Howard? Or the Spurs to trade Tim Duncan or the Suns to trade a healthy Amare? Probably not. And why not? Because there's some guys who you just don't measure in those terms. That's what I think Thomas will be. So to me, he's is off the table, unless someone is talking about an equally special player.

I don't really view Brown's contract as a major asset for the same reasons that every other expiring deal we've had hasn't been a major asset. The likelihood of getting something really good for it, even coupled with the Knicks pick doesn't seem that high.

At the same time, I don't really think the offer I'd make is giving up too much. Maybe in the abstract, but for _this_ team it's not because we can only put five guys on the court. Even after the deal, we're still 10 deep in high quality players. The real question is whether, if we look at that roster, we think we've got the tools to win a championship any year over the next five. And I think we would. If I'm right about that, then axiomatically we can't be giving up too much.

In fairness, I'd say this is the maximium I'd give up. I don't know what other teams would be offering, but if we could realistically offer less (say, switch Duhon and Gordon?) and still pull off this deal, then sure. I don't know if any other team could make a comparable offer, so there's no sense in giving up too much.

But if push comes to shove, I'd do it. Truth be told, if our primary offense is going to come from Gasol, Thomas, and Noc, as I'd think it might, we may well be better off with Duhon than Gordon. Obviously Gordon is a threat on his own, but a lot of our offense is going to depend on getting those other guys the ball. Duhon is a floor general. He can do that. Gordon... not so much, though down the road I think he eventually will become more proficient at it.

In the end, I think I'd prefer to keep Gordon and give Duhon, but what I'm saying, I guess, is that I think we'd be better off either way.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> Lowry/Duhon/Stoudamire
> J. Howard/Miller
> Deng/Gay
> McRoberts/Big Baby
> ...


25-30 wins maximum and no more than 10,000 (out of 18,000+ capacity) attendance _average_.



> Lowry/Stoudamire
> Josh Howard/Miller
> Gay/Cardinal
> Gasol/Big Baby
> ...


Low-end playoff team, swapping Stoudamire into the starting role and Lowry as the backup.


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## paxman (Apr 24, 2006)

can somebody please change the misleading title of this thread?
no offense to the thread maker, but gasol did not say "i want out"


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> *And if Pau wants to leave, then he'll leave.*


That's the truth. The question then, of course, isn't what's the most we'd give up, but what's the most someone else will give up. The offer you'd be willing to make is probably still better than what anyone else would give Memphis.

Then again, I'm sure other teams would offer up something nice too. The Knicks could offer up Channing Frye and a plethora of ending contracts, a deal which is in some ways superior to ours if the Logo wants to clear the table and start again (given that the Griz are reportedly bleeding money, I find this to be likely). A team like Milwaukee could make a pretty interesting offer too (CV, Mo Williams, plus enough expiring contracts to take back a couple of other guys from the Griz).


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> I'd give them P.J. Brown, Tyrus Thomas, and the 2007 Knicks' pick without any strings attached. According to the RealGM trade checker, that deal is CBA compliant.
> 
> Is that a lot? Yup. Is Gasol worth it? Absolutely -- we have no idea what Thomas or the Knicks pick is going to end up being. Gasol is an excellent player who brings everything we need and then some, and he just turned 26.
> 
> I think the Bulls would probably win at least one NBA title within the next four seasons if my proposed deal happened, and multiple titles wouldn't be out of the question. That team would have tons of front-court/back-court balance, great offense-defense balance, youth, athleticism, etc.


I'm late to the game, but I'll add my "dittos" to this.


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