# O'Neal transforms his defense



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Forward Jermaine O'Neal entered the season averaging 2.4 blocks in his career with the Indiana Pacers.





> That's fine, but he knew he'd have to increase that number if he expected to be named to the league's All-Defensive team for the first time in his career.





> The average basketball fan may not notice the difference, but what caught O'Neal's eye about Olajuwon helped him block more shots.
> 
> Olajuwon started his shot blocking motion with his hand up. O'Neal routinely started his motion with arm down by his side.





> *O'Neal has stuck by his preseason pledge to shift his focus from offense to defense.* He is leading the league in blocks at 3.0 per game. He has had nine games of at least four blocks, including a high of eight at Milwaukee on Nov. 18.





> The Pacers have needed O'Neal's help on the weak side because they've struggled at times stopping dribble penetration.
> 
> "I'm certainly pleased he's blocking a lot of shots," coach Rick Carlisle said. "If our perimeter defense was better, it would make it easier on him in terms of his responsibilities around the basket and less prone to foul situations."





> "We talk about it all the time, making a guy drive and pick the ball up. When he picks the ball up, that allows me to come over and block the shot because there's no way he can get it off once he picks it up because he doesn't see me," O'Neal said. "The only other thing he can do is try to dump the ball off to a teammate."
> 
> Shot blockers face two risks when contesting shots: showing up on television highlight reels after being embarrassed by an opponent's strong move and getting into foul trouble.
> 
> O'Neal can live with getting dunked on because it's part of the game, but picking up fouls is a different story. He has fouled out only once and had just four games where he has had five fouls.





> "Guys that can maintain their level of high aggression and still stay free of foul trouble are guys that have a high basketball IQ and a good understanding of the league," Carlisle said. "He has both of those things. We've been fortunate he hasn't been in foul trouble considering the number of times guys have run at him. The work he did in the summer has put his body in the position where he can avoid some of the unnecessary contact because he has better control. . . . He should be mentioned as Defensive Player of the Year."


http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061226/SPORTS04/612260372/1088

I am certainly loving the constant block parties this year, but I would still like him to get back into the post more. I don't like our best scorer barely hitting 18.7 ppg, but I guess it's okay with Harrington, Jackson, and Tinsley as others who can score a lot, and Granger who just nails open 3's.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

it's early..dont get all excited yet


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> it's early..dont get all excited yet


He's not really getting excited. What's there to get excited about with Jermaine?


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Box Man said:


> He's not really getting excited. What's there to get excited about with Jermaine?



Uhh his BPG? duh.and that he's the -->EARLY<-- candidate for Defensive Player of the Year and All Defense Team.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> Uhh his BPG? duh.and that he's the -->EARLY<-- candidate for Defensive Player of the Year and All Defense Team.


Heh, stats are very exciting.. riiiight. 

The amount of blocks per game you average doesn't make you a good defensive player. Explain what makes him good at defense, won't you?


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Box Man said:


> Heh, stats are very exciting.. riiiight.
> 
> The amount of blocks per game you average doesn't make you a good defensive player. Explain what makes him good at defense, won't you?



Watch a Pacers game. No need for me to tell you. He is playin great defense this year. Thats why he's an early candidate for defensive player of the year. And sure stats arent exciting but pacer fans are getting excited with JO's dee.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

oh and he has 10 RPG and 0.8 steals per game. and pacers fan no need to lock this thread down too. were not fighting


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> oh and he has 10 RPG and 0.8 steals per game. and pacers fan no need to lock this thread down too. were not fighting


I'm not going to lock this since it's Pacers related and not full of cheap insults. Just keep it clean and you guys can continue. I'd get into this, but I'll see if Box Man can handle an argument without me.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Pacers Fan said:


> I'm not going to lock this since it's Pacers related and not full of cheap insults. Just keep it clean and you guys can continue. I'd get into this, but I'll see if Box Man can handle an argument without me.


Okay. Box Man seems to have a thing to disagree with me all the time.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> Watch a Pacers game. No need for me to tell you.


I'd like to hear it. This isn't an argument about watching Pacer games, it's about how the hell blocks per game means you are a good defender.

How many Pacer games a year would you say you watch on average?



> He is playin great defense this year.


What are you basing this off of, stats?



> Thats why he's an early candidate for defensive player of the year.


Good puzzle work there, Nancy Drew.



> And sure stats arent exciting but pacer fans are getting excited with JO's dee.


You mean his blocks.



> oh and he has 10 RPG and 0.8 steals per game.


More stats. 10 rebounds tells me nothing. Defensive rebounds? That might tell me a little more, but not much. I'm not even going to reply to the .8 steals per game, that's not really telling me he's great at defense.

Quit looking at the stats on Pacers.com.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> Okay. Box Man seems to have a thing to disagree with me all the time.


I disagree with everyone.

That doesn't mean arguments aren't fun. :clap2:


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Box Man said:


> I disagree with everyone.
> 
> That doesn't mean arguments aren't fun. :clap2:



thats true arguments are fun. and a little OT here what the heck is your avatar? just askin man


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Box Man said:


> I'd like to hear it. This isn't an argument about watching Pacer games, it's about how the hell blocks per game means you are a good defender.
> 
> How many Pacer games a year would you say you watch on average?
> 
> ...


First of all. .8 steals arent bad compared to most big men. And buddy how many games do i see in a year? Well..do you think i actually count? But on Average..... i'd say 13 or more. And im not basing everything on stats. Stats really dont mean much but sometimes you gotta bring em up to prove a point. It is true though. He's the early candidate for the all defense 1st team. i probably shouldnt of said DPY. but whatever...you think im just some stupid noob who goes on pacers.com and gets all my opinions from there? And besides 3 BPG Leads the NBA buddy. And he's in the top ten in boards. Your tellin me that aint good? And no i just didnt go on some site to get that to prove you wrong but its true. Thats fantastic. So there i proved my point. i dont need to go on some site to know what im talking about. I play the game..i watch the game. Bet you've never played a game in your life.(no offence)


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> and a little OT here what the heck is your avatar? just askin man


It's a painting by Alex Grey. I don't know exactly what its subject is, but I think he might have done a similar version for the song Parabola by the band Tool. Looks like some kind of hallucination, caused by LSD or another hallucinogen.

Of course, it could be completely different.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Box Man said:


> It's a painting by Alex Grey. I don't know exactly what its subject is, but I think he might have done a similar version for the song Parabola by the band Tool. Looks like some kind of hallucination, caused by LSD or another hallucinogen.



I'd stick with the Larry Bird Pacers pic if i was you..but nice painting.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> I'd stick with the Larry Bird Pacers pic if i was you..but nice painting.


Thanks for the advice, but no thanks. The Bird avatar was for a short time only.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Box Man said:


> Thanks for the advice, but no thanks. The Bird avatar was for a short time only.



Okay there. But now you dont look like a pacers fan at all. The new name. The new avatar.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> First of all. .8 steals arent bad compared to most big men.


Oh, so we're comparing him to most big men now? 



> And buddy how many games do i see in a year? Well..do you think i actually count? But on Average..... i'd say 13 or more.


So do you have any idea what makes a defensive player great? Or what's making Jermaine's defense stand out this year?



> And im not basing everything on stats.


Everything you've argued with you've included a stat.



> Stats really dont mean much but sometimes you gotta bring em up to prove a point.


Knowledge > Stats.



> It is true though. He's the early candidate for the all defense 1st team.


And what's your point? That he's a great defender? Again, I ask you, what makes him a great defender this year? I really want to know, I don't see it.



> i probably shouldnt of said DPY. but whatever...


I didn't have a problem with that.



> you think im just some stupid noob who goes on pacers.com and gets all my opinions from there?


Yes, you said it yourself you can't watch that many games.



> And besides 3 BPG Leads the NBA buddy.


Yeah, fantastic. Now how does that make him a great defender?



> And he's in the top ten in boards. Your tellin me that aint good?


I didn't say that that wasn't good, I'm asking how that makes him a great defender. Now get through with these pointless rants and tell me. 



> And no i just didnt go on some site to get that to prove you wrong but its true.


Where did you prove me wrong?



> So there i proved my point.


Where? With what?



> i dont need to go on some site to know what im talking about. I play the game..i watch the game.


:laugh:

You're spewing useless information like stats at me. Stats are just numbers, that's all they are. Some nights Jermaine will be playing against a horrible offensive rebounding team (like us) and some nights he'll be playing against a team that is great at rebounding. Jermaine would probably get 20 rebounds if he played against us, but that doesn't tell me anything about his defense.



> Bet you've never played a game in your life.(no offence)


Oh you really got me there, with your misspelling of offense.

By the way, I've been playing and been around basketball since I was 5. Swing and a miss! You'll get me next time.

Playing basketball doesn't make you more knowledgeable than the next fair weather fan.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> Okay there. But now you dont look like a pacers fan at all. The new name. The new avatar.


And so what? Am I disrespecting my team? If another poster was interested in who my favorite team was, they'd look into some of my posts or just look at my profile. It's really not a big deal.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

Box Man said:


> Playing basketball doesn't make you more knowledgeable than the next fair weather fan.


Sorry to butt in, but playing does make people more knowledgable at analyzing the game. It's why people like Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, Rick Carlisle, and many other coaches have become great: they played in the NBA.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Box Man said:


> By the way, I've been playing and been around basketball since I was 5. Swing and a miss! You'll get me next time.
> 
> Playing basketball doesn't make you more knowledgeable than the next fair weather fan.



Good for you. I currently play on the University where im from JR team.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Pacers Fan said:


> Sorry to butt in, but playing does make people more knowledgable at analyzing the game. It's why people like Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, Rick Carlisle, and many other coaches have become great: they played in the NBA.



He is right and you forgot one more great coach who played. Mike D'Antoni. Played in the NBA for a year then went on to play in Italy and was a star.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> He is right and you forgot one more great coach who played. Mike D'Antoni. Played in the NBA for a year then went on to play in Italy and was a star.


Meh, I didn't forget him. I just didn't include him. The other three make better examples, too. I didn't include George Karl, Larry Brown, Doug Moe, or many others, also.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

Pacers Fan said:


> Sorry to butt in, but playing does make people more knowledgable at analyzing the game. It's why people like Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, Rick Carlisle, and many other coaches have become great: they played in the NBA.


You're correct but I was specifically speaking of fans. I don't think one can brag how they're more knowledgeable about the game just because they play it.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> Good for you. I currently play on the University where im from JR team.


"Good for you," I really needed to know that. Thanks.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Okay Box Man...i've studied the way he has played this year from my experience on the court and not in the stands. *cough* He's becoming more aggressive down low. Why do you think Foster is so good at gettin boards? Foster isnt the tallest or the strongest (neither is JO) but there aggressive, and its showing in the game results and on the stats sheet. And his blocks...before he just tried to swat the ball a mile. You can tell by watching him from when he was younger. Now he just goes for the block. Doesnt just try to kill it cause more than half the time you'll get called for a foul. Now he's just startin to do more basic things. Just good ol' basic fundamentals. [strike]Is that good enough for you Box Man? Feel free to quote me a 100 times again and make a stupid comment on every single one. Goo ahead.. Do it[/strike]

*Don't insult other posters

- Pacers Fan*


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Box Man said:


> "Good for you," I really needed to know that. Thanks.



I knew you did so i thought i'd say lol :grinning:


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Pacers Fan said:


> Meh, I didn't forget him. I just didn't include him. The other three make better examples, too. I didn't include George Karl, Larry Brown, Doug Moe, or many others, also.



yeah but i just thought i'd throw in the former coach of the year.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> Okay Box Man...i've studied the way he has played this year from my experience on the court and not in the stands.


How many games have you seen to come to your conclusion? 



> *cough*


Excuse you.



> He's becoming more aggressive down low.


Interesting, he sure does take a lot of jumpers.



> Why do you think Foster is so good at gettin boards?


He hustles and boxes out. They don't call him feisty Foster for nothing.



> Foster isnt the tallest or the strongest (neither is JO) but there aggressive, and its showing in the game results and on the stats sheet.


Jermaine isn't really an aggressive player, at least not as much as he used to be. And as for his rebounds, he happens to be a very good jumper, times it well, and is in the right place. That makes him a good rebounder, but not defender, and that doesn't make him aggressive either.



> And his blocks...before he just tried to swat the ball a mile. You can tell by watching him from when he was younger. Now he just goes for the block.


He swatted at the ball last year, he swats at it this year. Same old thing, he's just gotten better.



> Doesnt just try to kill it *cause more than half the time you'll get called for a foul.*


Did your godlike basketball experience tell you that one?



> Now he's just startin to do more basic things.


Yeah, man. Jumpshots, isolation, jumpshots, blocked shots, jumpshots.

Basic things don't make you stand out as a great player. 



> Just good ol' basic fundamentals.


I'd like to see him utilize his post fundamentals.



> Is that good enough for you Box Man?


You're getting closer.



> [strike]Feel free to quote me a 100 times again and make a stupid comment on every single one. Goo ahead.. Do it[/strike]


What are you trying to do?


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Box Man said:


> Excuse you.



thats hilarious:clap:



Box Man said:


> Jermaine isn't really an aggressive player, at least not as much as he used to be. And as for his rebounds, he happens to be a very good jumper, times it well, and is in the right place. That makes him a good rebounder, but not defender, and that doesn't make him aggressive either


Yeah he's a fantastic jumper and you may think he's just in the right place. It's positioning. From where the guys shooting from you can sorta predict where the ball is gunna go if he misses.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

ooops messed up the quote. No need for a comment about that box man


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> ooops messed up the quote. No need for a comment about that box man


No need for double/triple/quadruple posts, either. Just use the tags around the text you want to quote. Nothing major, but they just clutter the thread.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Pacers Fan said:


> No need for double/triple/quadruple posts, either. Just use the tags around the text you want to quote. Nothing major, but they just clutter the thread.



Okay thanks......


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> Yeah he's a fantastic jumper and you may think he's just in the right place. It's positioning. From where the guys shooting from you can sorta predict where the ball is gunna go if he misses.


Positioning has two steps, getting in the right place for the rebound is one, but making sure you're in the right place and your man is not going to keep you from getting the rebound is another. It would be more effective for his teammates and himself if he would box out.

Boxing out is a fundamental isn't it?


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Box Man said:


> Positioning has two steps, getting in the right place for the rebound is one, but making sure you're in the right place and your man is not going to keep you from getting the rebound is another. It would be more effective for his teammates and himself if he would box out.
> 
> Boxing out is a fundamental isn't it?



Yes it is Box Man and he does do that mostly.. But then again its the NBA and they mostly like to just jump for it


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> Yes it is Box Man and he does do that mostly..


No, he doesn't. 



> But then again its the NBA and they mostly like to just jump for it


And that makes it ok?


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Yes he does........and to add to the blocks. He's startin to use his right and left hands to block shots.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> Yes he does........and to add to the blocks. He's startin to use his right and left hands to block shots.


Yeah, he is. That shoulder injury helped him a lot with his left hand. That doesn't take away from him not being able to guard other post players effectively. He's a great enforcer on defense, but just isn't good enough at guarding his own man. If anything, he's gambling too much on blocks now instead of playing real defemse. But, I do like that.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> Yes he does........


Maybe if you wouldn't spend so much time paying attention to his blocks you would see he rarely boxes out.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Box Man said:


> Maybe if you wouldn't spend so much time paying attention to his blocks you would see he rarely boxes out.



HE DOESNT HAVE TOO! Should he yes. But nobody does in the nba besides jermaine can jump and has long *** arms


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> HE DOESNT HAVE TOO! Should he yes. But nobody does in the nba besides jermaine can jump and has long *** arms


He's misses out on a lot of rebounds because he neglects to box out. Those are missed possessions, missed points, and missed wins.


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## Wayne (May 24, 2006)

Fellow Pacers fans, there's no need to argue over one of our own players so viciously.

Here's what I think, after reading both sides of the debate. O'Neal does play defense, because blocking is a huge part of defense. Most DPOYs are major shotblockers: Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, etc. If you are a good shotblocker, then usually, that's a good indicator of your defense especially for big men. On the issue of stats, numbers don't lie. Sure, you can't base your entire argument on Jermaine's statline, but 3.0 blocks a game and 10 rebounds is legit and you certainly can't take away from that. Numbers are hard evidence for defense and often times, they speak the truth better than knowledge or intuition. I can tell Harvard that I am the best student they will ever see, but they are not going to believe me until they see a 4.0 GPA or a 1600 SAT.

Also, on boxing out, O'Neal is not very good at boxing out, mainly because he plays too far from the basket. Especially on offense, you see other big men post up, but Jermaine likes to shoot jumpers. Jump shooters will never be good offensive rebounders and they will hardly ever get a chance to box out unless its a long rebound. Essentially, he needs to play more like a PF/Center rather than a SF.

I think O'Neal's defense this year is worthy of praise from Pacers fans. Last year, we were ranting how we got outrebounded every game, but this year, O'Neal's been back up to 10+ which is already an improvement, not to mention the blocks. Foster is our center, and I definately think he deserves 30+ mins a game. That's going to take a load off of Jermaine.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Wayne said:


> Fellow Pacers fans, there's no need to argue over one of our own players so viciously.
> 
> Here's what I think, after reading both sides of the debate. O'Neal does play defense, because blocking is a huge part of defense. Most DPOYs are major shotblockers: Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, etc. If you are a good shotblocker, then usually, that's a good indicator of your defense especially for big men. On the issue of stats, numbers don't lie. Sure, you can't base your entire argument on Jermaine's statline, but 3.0 blocks a game and 10 rebounds is legit and you certainly can't take away from that. Numbers are hard evidence for defense and often times, they speak the truth better than knowledge or intuition. I can tell Harvard that I am the best student they will ever see, but they are not going to believe me until they see a 4.0 GPA or a 1600 SAT.
> 
> ...



Allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllrighty then


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## StephenJackson (Oct 28, 2004)

Wayne said:


> Sure, you can't base your entire argument on Jermaine's statline, but 3.0 blocks a game and 10 rebounds is legit and you certainly can't take away from that.


Haha yes they can, it's what happens when you have blind hate for a player. JO could be putting up 30/15/4 numbers...they'd still find something wrong.

Hence my avatar. Unappreciated.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

StephenJackson said:


> Haha yes they can, it's what happens when you have blind hate for a player. JO could be putting up 30/15/4 numbers...they'd still find something wrong.


But he's averaging 18/10/3. I hate using stats in arguments, but those do not look like franchise-player type numbers. Sure, he's been a great enforcer, but that's it so far this year.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Pacers Fan said:


> But he's averaging 18/10/3. I hate using stats in arguments, but those do not look like franchise-player type numbers. Sure, he's been a great enforcer, but that's it so far this year.



Jermaine O'neal definately is NOT a franchise player. He has picked up his defense this year but still...thats why JO's gotta go.


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> Jermaine O'neal definately is NOT a franchise player. He has picked up his defense this year but still...thats why JO's gotta go.


Wait, you spend the entire thread arguing with me and now you say he has to go?


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## Pacersthebest (Aug 6, 2005)

iNdIaNa31PaCeRs said:


> Jermaine O'neal definately is NOT a franchise player. He has picked up his defense this year but still...thats why JO's gotta go.


[strike]:lol: You drunk?[/strike]

*Come on, you know better.

- Pacers Fan*


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## Banjoriddim (Aug 14, 2004)

This thread is wack:yay: ...I mean Rodmand was poor shot blocker, JO is great one, he does play better this year atleast on D and is more consistant but if we have to bash him... fine. imho he is still elite defender but what do I see and know...


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Pacersthebest said:


> :lol: [strike]You drunk?[/strike]


[strike]Are you drunk?[/strike] what the hell has he done for us? How far have we gone with him? [strike]So buddy shutup.[/strike] He is NOT a franchise player. Theres a difference between an all-star and a franchise player. [strike]You drunk.[/strike]

*Just because someone asked if you were drunk doesn't mean you have to retaliate like that.

- Pacers Fan*


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Box Man said:


> Wait, you spend the entire thread arguing with me and now you say he has to go?



Im arguing that his defense has gotten much better but he is not a franchise player. without reggie he cant take us to the finals.


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## PaCeRhOLiC (May 22, 2005)

I love the name of this thread!....:cheers:


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