# Bruce Bowen and JR Smith



## Silvio Dante (Jul 4, 2006)

What do Bruce Bowen and JR Smith have in common? Answer: Both were Chicago Bulls for less than 10 minutes.

Bowen "came" to Chicago from Philly as part of the Toni Kukoc trade of 2000, but was waived immediately, where Pat Riley snatched him up for the Heat. JR's Windy City tenure will be as brief, as he's being immediately dealt away ... details to follow.


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## LuCane (Dec 9, 2002)

Did you just say it was a done deal? Are you saying that's what you assume?

Is there a rule about trading away a player before 90 days after just trading for him?


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## madox (Jan 6, 2004)

I expected as much. It'll be interesting to see what the deal is.


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## LuolDeng (Feb 22, 2004)

You know this for fact or just a prediction?


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

a guy on realgm is saying JR Smith to Denver for Eisley and 2 second rounders


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## NeTs15VC (Aug 16, 2005)

That just would be pointless and wouldnt make sense.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Basghetti80 said:


> a guy on realgm is saying JR Smith to Denver for Eisley and 2 second rounders


are you f'n kidding? That would be completely worthless.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

I believe I predicted this one.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

johnston797 said:


> I believe I predicted this one.


You predicted the Bulls would trade for Howard Eisley? :wink:


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> are you f'n kidding? That would be completely worthless.


It's a fung shai thing. Pax just traded away future 2 second rounders in the draft.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Basghetti80 said:


> a guy on realgm is saying JR Smith to Denver for Eisley and 2 second rounders


I saw that too after I read this thread. I don't think Paxson is that stupid. This would have to be one of the worst trades. Unless JR is going for a player that can be a significant contributor, I would take a chance to see if Skiles can make him play 'the right way.' The kid has way too much talent to pass up. Especially for 2nd rounders which are worthless in trades. You can always get one for cash on draft day.

If JR is being traded, I would hope its for a decent bench player who can supply the offense like Othella did.

Edit: On a sidenote, Kirk Snyder is going to Houtson for future considerations, likely cash and a future 2nd rounder. Why did we not get Kirk instead of JR in the deal? I'm sure some team would have given up a 2nd for JR. JR is the more talented player, but if we are set on dealing him, I would have rather gotten Kirk Snyder.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Paxson said he wanted a veteran SG to help ease sefolosha's transition.

Still a dumb trade though.

WE get the two 2nd rounders though (which at this point with our team, doesn't mean much)

I personally would of been fine with a Gordon/Hinrich/Sefolosha/Smith backcourt. He's too talented to give up on for NOTHING.

Guy on the site said the trade is already done though.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

That trade would be RE tarded if Pax did it, lets hope not.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> I saw that too after I read this thread. I don't think Paxson is that stupid. This would have to be one of the worst trades. Unless JR is going for a player that can be a significant contributor, I would take a chance to see if Skiles can make him play 'the right way.' The kid has way too much talent to pass up. Especially for 2nd rounders which are worthless in trades. You can always get one for cash on draft day.
> 
> If JR is being traded, I would hope its for a decent bench player who can supply the offense like Othella did.
> 
> Edit: On a sidenote, Kirk Snyder is going to Houtson for future considerations, likely cash and a future 2nd rounder. Why could not get Kirk instead of JR in the deal? I'm sure some team would have given up a 2nd for JR. JR is the more talented player, but if we are set on dealing him, I would have rather gotten Kirk Snyder.


There's some debate as to whether Denver can even trade Eisley. Word was he had an unguaranteed contract like Harrington, but he's already been cut. In that case, I don't believe Denver could trade him.

I wouldn't mind 2 second round picks for Smith, especially if one of them is for next year. I really want a second rounder next year. With the strength of the draft, there could be some real players on the board there.

As a talent, I'd rather have JR, but I just know his odds of making a difference here are extremely unlikely, considering how we might suspect Skiles and JR to mesh.

BTW, Denver is a FANTASTIC fit for Smith. They've been needing a shooting guard with range there for years. He'll actually get burn if this trade goes down.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

Is Eisley under contract to Denver? He was signed on March 2006 - didn't they just sign him for the end of the season? I think someone has things very wrong.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Trade is still dumb though when you could easily send Smith & say, Sweetney to Charlotte for Ely.

A Smith/Wallace/Morrison/Felton/Knight backcourt could be nastyy


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

This sounds like Rumors Gone Wild

but if it turns out to be true, I'm bracing myself for the 10,000 post Official JR Smith Update Thread.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

Oh c'mon. JR Smith and Scott Skiles?

I don't see much value in Eisley. On the Bulls, I see no value in Smith. Two second-rounders could come in handy.

If this trade is for real, I say do it. The most likely alternative is that the Bulls' do a "Tim Thomas" on Smith and get nothing.

With all due respect, those who thought Smith had a chance on the Bulls were kidding themselves.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

I agree transplant I am actually ok with the trade. If we do not trade him he gets cut. I do not see him ever suiting up for the Bulls.


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## UMfan83 (Jan 15, 2003)

Is there anything wrong with having a total of 9 players that play the 1 2 and 3? 5 guards and 4 SF's (argue all you want by Ty will NOT be a PF in his first year, hes too small)


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I don't see why he wouldn't have a chance. I'd prefer keeping him, even in a Pargo role if necessary, the kids talent is scary if his head ever catches up with his skills I'd rather be the team he is on than have a couple measly 2nd rounders and broke down Eisley.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> This sounds like Rumors Gone Wild
> 
> but if it turns out to be true, I'm bracing myself for the 10,000 post Official JR Smith Update Thread.


And thats just what we'll see before the season starts.


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## Silvio Dante (Jul 4, 2006)

I'm not sure exactly where JR is going to go, but I know for a fact it won't be Deerfield, IL.

I heard that he's a gonner, and that the Bulls are not going to get much in return. I'm assuming what we'll recieve is a future pick, but I doubt Pax would accept Eisley or any other filler. The idea behind dealing JR away is to clear up space on the roster, as we have too many guys who'll command minutes as it is.

The fact is, JR's an immature tool in the mold of Tim Thomas. Pax and Skiles don't want to deal with any distractions, and if anything has proven true in JR's two years in the NBA, it's that he'll be a distraction and a pain in the butt if kept around. True - the guy has unbelievable hops and potentially could someday turn into a killer on the floor, but in Pax's opinion, the juice just isn't worth the squeeze. Let JR be someone else's problem.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

I don't know Eisely's status. Is he an expiring contract? And in what amount?

If so, packaging him, Sweets, Brown (all expiring contracts) together as part of a consolidation trade at the deadline might make for a more attractive package than the inclusion of Smith would. 

Or maybe not. This will be Smith's final guaranteed year as well, right? Though his guaranteed figure is probably less than Eisely's. 

I'm confused. Someone do the research for me. I don't care enough about this trade to do it myself.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Silvio Dante said:


> True - the guy has unbelievable hops and potentially could someday turn into a killer on the floor, but in Pax's opinion, *the juice just isn't worth the squeeze*. Let JR be someone else's problem.


I'm probably sheltered, but I've never seen that phrase before. But I love it! 

Consider it appropriated for future use by The Penguin.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

Silvio Dante said:


> the juice just isn't worth the squeeze.


I'm sure this is an old saying, but despite the fact that I'm certifiably old, I've never heard it before. 

I love it and will use it. Thanks.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

The problem with this trade is not losing Smith, but instead losing a semi-valuable trade chip and not recieving anything that fills a need. Smith, if he is trade, needs to go in a package for a big.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I'd like to keep Smith myself. He has amazing talent and he may be a bit immature, in fact I am sure that he is, but I don't think he is nearly the headcase a lot of people are making him out to be.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

transplant said:


> I'm sure this is an old saying, but despite the fact that I'm certifiably old, I've never heard it before.
> 
> I love it and will use it. Thanks.


Back off, man. I stole it first.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

TripleDouble said:


> The problem with this trade is not losing Smith, but instead losing a semi-valuable trade chip and not recieving anything that fills a need. Smith, if he is trade, needs to go in a package for a big.


Thats why I was asking about Eisely's contract. If its for more money, and expiring, it might be a more valuable chip in trade down the road than Smith is. 

If not, then I'd rather just give Smith a shot to see if he can buy in and produce. 

I don't care if he's traded for something less than an immediate return. But I don't want him *immediately* traded if the longer term gain of the deal (i.e. an expiring contract) is a less valuable trade asset.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

*IF*, and that is a *BIG IF*, he can set his head straight and play defense and play smart...he can be a top 15 player in the league. He has the Kobe like talent. The difference is ego. Kobe wants to work hard to prove he is the best. JR just thinks he is. Few kids come from HS with his athletism and his shooting range. 

I rather take a gamble on him than give him up for a 2nd rounder. 2nd rounders are always up for sale (and future 2nd rounders). If this kid explodes, it'll be like the big bang for the rest of the NBA. High Risk = High Reward. We are at a stage now where we have our core being 'vets' and having no-nonsense guys like Ben and PJ coming in, where we can take a chance on a guy like JR. There is no reason not to.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

That trade would be horrible. I really don't see Smith making it on this team, but if he did it would be worth the gamble. His potential might be second on the team. I could see him playing well and Duhon being moved. Gordon and Sef could play backup point Smith could be the 4rth guard or maybe even beat out Sef for third.

Eisley isn't any better than Aaron Miles anymore, and if either of them are on this team next year they will be lucky to get garbage minutes. 

2RDP's from a playoff team= filler in a trade at best


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

I don't see Smith as a great fit here, or any kind fit really, but I was hoping he could fetch a little more than this.


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## LuCane (Dec 9, 2002)

> I'm probably sheltered, but I've never seen that phrase before. But I love it!


I guess you've never watched the fairly recent teen movie "The Girl Next Door." It's repeated there enough times to induce the squeeze of my intestines.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> I'd like to keep Smith myself. He has amazing talent and he may be a bit immature, in fact I am sure that he is, but I don't think he is nearly the headcase a lot of people are making him out to be.


Ace, I hear ya, but let's be realistic. The Bulls are now at the point where they intend to make a genuine run at it. At best, Simth would need to take on a Pargo-like role. Accepting a Pargo-like role takes a great deal of maturity for a young, talented player. JR Smith isn't right for the Bulls right now and the Bulls aren't right for JR Smith right now.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

smith + sweeteny for Mihm + future 1st???


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

transplant said:


> Ace, I hear ya, but let's be realistic. The Bulls are now at the point where they intend to make a genuine run at it. At best, Simth would need to take on a Pargo-like role. Accepting a Pargo-like role takes a great deal of maturity for a young, talented player. JR Smith isn't right for the Bulls right now and the Bulls aren't right for JR Smith right now.



I don't see any problem with keeping him. If he doesn't work out, send him home he is only making a million dollars or so, right? If we can send TT packing worth 16 mil then we can send JR home for 1 mil. To me the potential that he could get his act together and contribute far outweighs the value of some second round picks. This kid REALLY could be a top 15 talent in the league one day if he gets it together...


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

transplant said:


> Ace, I hear ya, but let's be realistic. The Bulls are now at the point where they intend to make a genuine run at it. At best, Simth would need to take on a Pargo-like role. Accepting a Pargo-like role takes a great deal of maturity for a young, talented player. JR Smith isn't right for the Bulls right now and the Bulls aren't right for JR Smith right now.


You think Eisley will have a greater net positive impact on the Bulls than Smith?


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

TripleDouble said:


> You think Eisley will have a greater net positive impact on the Bulls than Smith?


Only if we lose Hinrich and Duhon. Eisley has been on the back off benches for years and hasn't played well when given the chance.

If JR screws up then he turns this year into his contract year. That leads me to believe he is going to do evrything he can to make it if he stays with this club. You can question his attitude and X, Y, and Z, but when it comes to millions of dollars being on the line, even if he's all about the flash, he will work to keep himself on the court.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> I don't see any problem with keeping him. If he doesn't work out, send him home he is only making a million dollars or so, right? If we can send TT packing worth 16 mil then we can send JR home for 1 mil. To me the potential that he could get his act together and contribute far outweighs the value of some second round picks. This kid REALLY could be a top 15 talent in the league one day if he gets it together...


OK, there's a bit of "In Pax I Trust" going here. I have to believe Paxson has a better idea than I do as to what Smith can fetch in the trade market. I also have to believe that Paxson has an idea of Smith's chances of making this team...not good. Sure, we can eat his contract like we did ERob's and Tim Thomas's, but if we can get 2 second rounders instead of nothing, get 'em.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

TripleDouble said:


> You think Eisley will have a greater net positive impact on the Bulls than Smith?


Eisley's on court contributions wouldn't be the point of such a trade. It would be his expiring contract plus the 2 second rounders to later package in another trade.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Ron Cey said:


> Eisley's on court contributions wouldn't be the point of such a trade. It would be his expiring contract plus the 2 second rounders to later package in another trade.


But Smith's deal isn't gauranteed next year either. It's basically just the second rounders, as far as I can tell. Hopefully this is part of something larger.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> You think Eisley will have a greater net positive impact on the Bulls than Smith?


I think Eisley is near worthless. Two 2nd rounders are assets. If it's just Smith for Eisley, I don't see the point.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

transplant said:


> I think Eisley is near worthless. Two 2nd rounders are assets. If it's just Smith for Eisley, I don't see the point.


But you said that the Bulls are trying to make a run at it now. Those 2nd rounders aren't going to help anymore than Smith right now.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

jbulls said:


> But Smith's deal isn't gauranteed next year either. It's basically just the second rounders, as far as I can tell. Hopefully this is part of something larger.


Right. I was asking about that above. I thought Eisley's contract was worth more $$, which would make it a more valuable trade asset as an expiring contract.

We have used up almost all of our capspace per recent reports regarding the structure of Wallace's deal. But if we are still under the cap some, we can take a larger contract. So Eisley's could be worth more than Smith's. They wouldn't have to match.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

transplant said:


> OK, there's a bit of "In Pax I Trust" going here. I have to believe Paxson has a better idea than I do as to what Smith can fetch in the trade market. I also have to believe that Paxson has an idea of Smith's chances of making this team...not good. Sure, we can eat his contract like we did ERob's and Tim Thomas's, but if we can get 2 second rounders instead of nothing, get 'em.


True but we don't even know how Pax feels about the kid. I do remember reading that Pax had spoke with JR's father and that the trade was agreed to by all parties. Maybe Pax likes the kid more than people on this board assume? ya never know...


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't see 2nd rounders as assets. Why? Because they are always bought and given up for little to no value. Teams are always buying/selling their 2nd rounders on draft day. We could always get one for a future 2nd. This is why 2nd rounders are traded more often. 1st rounders may make or break a deal. 2nd rounders do not.

We won't gain much by getting two 2nd rounders. I see the gain of two 2nd rounders not being much greater than waiving JR. But *IF* JR Smith played well, then Skiles has some thinking to do about our rotation. He is probably the most talented player we got now. It's a matter of him living up to his potential. Unfortunately, the p-word is used again.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

theanimal23 said:


> I don't see 2nd rounders as assets. Why? Because they are always bought and given up for little to no value. Teams are always buying/selling their 2nd rounders on draft day. We could always get one for a future 2nd. This is why 2nd rounders are traded more often. 1st rounders may make or break a deal. 2nd rounders do not.
> 
> We won't gain much by getting two 2nd rounders. I see the gain of two 2nd rounders not being much greater than waiving JR. But *IF* JR Smith played well, then Skiles has some thinking to do about our rotation. He is probably the most talented player we got now. It's a matter of him living up to his potential. Unfortunately, the p-word is used again.


I agree with this.

Unless Seattle wants Duhon, Sweets and 2 seconds for Chris Wilcox or something like that. You never know.

If this trade isn't part of something bigger I'm not sure I like it. But we can't discount that possibility.


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## synergy825 (Apr 28, 2005)

I would keep JR Smith for at least this year or until the trade deadline. We should see if his trade to the Bulls have focused himself a bit and see if Skiles can change him. He's still very young and maybe he just needs to get his immaturity out. But the dude can flat out play, he's probably the most talented guy we have right now. he could blow up or he could continue the way he is. It's worth the risk to keep him at least for half a season. Skiles will see how good this kid is in practice.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> True but we don't even know how Pax feels about the kid. I do remember reading that Pax had spoke with JR's father and that the trade was agreed to by all parties. Maybe Pax likes the kid more than people on this board assume? ya never know...


In that case, the trade won't be made. 

I'm usually with Paxson on most of his moves, but will criticize the big ones I don't like. Smith may be a big talent in some people's minds, but the truth is, for the '06-'07 Bulls, he's not a key piece. I don't think I could tell Paxson anything he doesn't know about Smith's talents or his (negative) rep. 

In the end, I'll leave this one to Paxson and won't second-guess him.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> But you said that the Bulls are trying to make a run at it now. Those 2nd rounders aren't going to help anymore than Smith right now.


And a guy we cut and pay for sitting on his *** isn't going to help either.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

theanimal23 said:


> I don't see 2nd rounders as assets. Why? Because they are always bought and given up for little to no value.
> 
> We won't gain much by getting two 2nd rounders.


Second round picks are assets and very recent history proves it. 

(1) We traded a second round pick along with Aldridge to get Thomas and Khryapa. 

Without the second rounder, we likely don't get Khryapa, but instead get another second rounder ourselves.

(2) We traded a second rounder along with Carney to get Thabo. Again, without the second rounder, we don't get Thabo. If the 76ers wanted Carnery for Thabo, they would have just drafted Carney.

(3) Toronto just traded a second rounder for a signed and traded John Salmons. 

Second round picks are trade assets.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

A trade for Howard Eisley only means one thing to me. Duhon + somebody(ies) is going to be traded for a power forward. Mixed feelings about this.


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## Qwerty123 (May 31, 2002)

I read somewhere (either this thread or the other board) that Eisley has a Othella-like non-guaranteed contract. So if this is the deal, Eisley is waived free of charge, and all we get are 2 2nd rounders. Just shows that the Tyson trade was strictly a salary dump that we're not even willing to pay one million bucks for a guy with potential.

I didn't really think Pax would keep JR around til training camp even. I figured he'd find some sort of deal out there either for a current player or package JR in a larger trade. But if the only deal on the table is a salary dump and 2 2nd rounders, you gotta keep Smith around. Bide your time waiting for something else. Or give the guy a chance to prove himself to the Bulls.

Another thought just occured to me if Eisley's contract isn't guaranteed. That might create enough room to resign Songaila. Just depends how much space the Wallace signing left us.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

This definintely sounds like a salary dump.

With the way Sefolosha's been playing, maybe they feel they don't need Smith. Plus their's not enough minutes for all those guys. I believe it's going to happen though, Smith would be perfect in Denver.

G Hinrich / Duhon
G Gordon / Sefolosha

That looks to be the group. Hopefully Miles gets picked up.


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## StackAttack (Mar 15, 2006)

I'm...kind of confused. Don't you have to wait two months before re-trading a player?


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

StackAttack said:


> I'm...kind of confused. Don't you have to wait two months before re-trading a player?


You can trade that player, but only by himself. Like we acquired Mutombo, but traded him shortly thereafter.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

A guy from the denver board verified that it's true. He said the source let's them know about trades a day or two before their made.

C Hinrich / Duhon / Miles
G Gordon / Sefolosha
F Deng / Nocioni / Khyrapa
F Brown / Thomas / Sweetney / Allen
C Wallace / Schenscher

Thing is, will Eisley be kept on for veteran support of the young guys, or will he be waived? He's only 6"2 and at this point isn't better than Duhon or Miles. I think he'll be waived. I also think Miles will be kept for insurance incase of a possible duhon trade.

Duhon, Allen, Khyrapa & Sweetney look to be our only trade bait now.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Meh. I'm not too impressed with this. I figure Smith is a better trade filler than Eisley, and the two 2nd rounders do nothing for me.


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## synergy825 (Apr 28, 2005)

Man, we should just keep JR........the dude is talented. We can always trade him before the trade deadline if he really needs to go. The dude can explode.


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## Qwerty123 (May 31, 2002)

JR has more potential to be something or bring something than 2 2nd rounders. Even if his trade value disappears altogether, so what, we lost out on 2 2nd rounders. Big deal. It's worth the chance he improves his value or heaven forbid becomes a valuable player for this team. Talk about selling low.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Where I can see Eisely's contract? I want to know if he is expiring this season and what the amount is. Can someone point me in the right direction? Actually, if you do know where to find his contract information, you don't really need to tell me where to find it, you can just get the answer and post it here instead. 

Give me the fish, I say. To hell with the fishing itself.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

Ron Cey said:


> Where I can see Eisely's contract? I want to know if he is expiring this season and what the amount is. Can someone point me in the right direction? Actually, if you do know where to find his contract information, you don't really need to tell me where to find it, you can just get the answer and post it here instead.
> 
> Give me the fish, I say. To hell with the fishing itself.


This is from the press release when Eisley signed: 



> DENVER, Mar. 23 -- The Denver Nuggets have signed G Howard Eisley for the remainder of the season, team General Manager Kiki Vandeweghe announced today.
> Eisley, 6-2, 180, signed the first of consecutive 10-day contracts with the Nuggets on March 3. He has appeared in six games for Denver this season, averaging 2.0 ppg and 1.8 apg in 7.8 minutes.
> 
> For his career, Eisley has averaged 6.7 ppg, 3.6 apg and 1.7 rpg over 12 seasons with Minnesota, San Antonio, Utah (twice), Dallas, New York, Phoenix and the L.A Clippers.


http://www.nba.com/nuggets/news/nuggets_sign_eisley_032306.html 

I don't think he's under contract to them at all.

Found a news article with further clarification: - He's got a vet minimum contract that's not guaranteed unless he's with the team in August:



> They would have 11 players under contract, though guard Howard Eisley's veteran's minimum for 2006-07 is nonguaranteed into August. Should they cut him before his $1.2 million becomes guaranteed, their remaining 10 players would be due about $61 million.


It's from a story on the Nene signing.

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_4004139


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## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

was J.R. really traded for Howard Eisley and 2 future 2nd rounder???...sorry, I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know...if so, that is a TERRIBLE trade...J.R. is a LOTTERY talent and you are trading it for 2nd round talent!!!????


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

jalen5 said:


> was J.R. really traded for Howard Eisley and 2 future 2nd rounder???...sorry, I didn't read the whole thread so I don't know...if so, that is a TERRIBLE trade...J.R. is a LOTTERY talent and you are trading it for 2nd round talent!!!????


At this point, it's just a rumor off the Nuggets board. 

But you know, it's weird, when the Hornets tried to trade JR last year - what they got offered was Brent Barry. Perhaps GMs don't view JR in a lottery light anymore.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

narek said:


> At this point, it's just a rumor off the Nuggets board.
> 
> But you know, it's weird, when the Hornets tried to trade JR last year - what they got offered was Brent Barry. Perhaps GMs don't view JR in a lottery light anymore.


I'm not sure they ever did. He was drafted 18th, wasn't he?


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## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

narek said:


> At this point, it's just a rumor off the Nuggets board.
> 
> But you know, it's weird, when the Hornets tried to trade JR last year - what they got offered was Brent Barry. Perhaps GMs don't view JR in a lottery light anymore.



Thanks for the quick response man...yea, JR was drafted 18th but that's b/c he was a high school player...he's a LOTTERY talent physically and skills wise but not mentally and maturity wise...as a Hornets fan, I would have pissed if we had traded JR for Brent Barry back then...GMs probably don't regard JR as highly as they used to because of his experience in New Orleans but I think its a mistake to give up on a guy so young so early with all the talent he has...


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I will hate it if we trade JR for Eisley and 2nd rounders. If the primary goal is cap relief, we are not saving much. His contract will cost about $2 million I assume, and it is a 1 year deal. Not long term. 

Second. Pax has stated that we can only bring in players who may cause a disruption if we have the right team in place. Sort of like Detroit bringing in Sheed, SAS bringing in Big Dog. Well why is our team not in that place right now? I see us being able to handle a player who could fit the disruptive mold. We got two steady vets: Ben Wallace and PJ Brown. The rest of our guys are young by age, but not in maturity. There is a big difference between being 23 and acting 23. Our guys act like they are 5 year vets. 

If Skiles and Pax takes a chance on the kid, it is worth it. The kid has the talent to be our best player since MJ and Pip. I've said it. He can shoot the ball, can get to the rim and finish. He has the build to be a very capable 2-guard. It will just take a little bit of extra nuturing to get this kid straight. At least take a chance on him for half a season. See if he responds. If not, trade him at the deadline. It's not like a team won't give up two second rounders then. Hell, at that time, we can trade him to the Spurs and see him explode there. At least we have the slight chance of getting Scola in return.


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## all_aus (Aug 28, 2005)

keep jr, if you are going to trade him do it during the season


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## bulls (Jan 1, 2004)

theanimal23 said:


> I will hate it if we trade JR for Eisley and 2nd rounders. If the primary goal is cap relief, we are not saving much. His contract will cost about $2 million I assume, and it is a 1 year deal. Not long term.
> 
> Second. Pax has stated that we can only bring in players who may cause a disruption if we have the right team in place. Sort of like Detroit bringing in Sheed, SAS bringing in Big Dog. Well why is our team not in that place right now? I see us being able to handle a player who could fit the disruptive mold. We got two steady vets: Ben Wallace and PJ Brown. The rest of our guys are young by age, but not in maturity. There is a big difference between being 23 and acting 23. Our guys act like they are 5 year vets.
> 
> If Skiles and Pax takes a chance on the kid, it is worth it. The kid has the talent to be our best player since MJ and Pip. I've said it. He can shoot the ball, can get to the rim and finish. He has the build to be a very capable 2-guard. It will just take a little bit of extra nuturing to get this kid straight. At least take a chance on him for half a season. See if he responds. If not, trade him at the deadline. It's not like a team won't give up two second rounders then. Hell, at that time, we can trade him to the Spurs and see him explode there. At least we have the slight chance of getting Scola in return.


thank you.. :clap:


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Well, I was pissed about the Chandler trade, but it'll be even worse if they get rid of JR for pure JUNK. 2nd rounders are never worth crap, and if we're already too short, why get a guy that's 6'2", which is shorter than anyone on the roster right now except Duhon, who's a chump anyway. Makes no sense at all, at least JR has the potential to be something above average.


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## Aesop (Jun 1, 2003)

So, if the Bulls trade for Eisley then cut him, how much will be Bulls have in cap space? $2M? $3M? Paxson might be able to get a non-terrible yet jibbish player for that kind of money.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

If this trade goes through, I'm positive we're not doing it for Howard Eisley. The value of the trade is getting two 2nd round draft picks.

I'm not a huge fan of 2nd rounders personally, but with Paxson's eye for talent chances are that at least one of them becomes something worthwhile. One way of looking at this is that, a) JR Smith probably won't play much this season considering he's #5 on our depth chart...and b) even if he does play, he's about to finish his 3rd season so we likely end up cutting him loose anyways before too long. JR has some talent alright, but the chances of him fulfilling his abilities here in Chicago is about 0.000001%. Not enough time, too big of a risk. I'll probably take the 2nd rounders myself; I might be saying something different if he were entering his 2nd season instead of his 3rd though.


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## mr.ankle20 (Mar 7, 2004)

gilbert arenas was a second round pick . But Jerry Krause picked trenton hassell over him :upset:


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

My calculations point to us having around $4.8M in cap space with Tyrus Thomas and Thabo Sefolsha signed 

We deal JR for Eisley's _non guaranteed contract_ we cut him and pick up another $1.1M in cap space 

That gives us $5.9M in remaining cap room that goes with the expiring contracts we have on hand to either get a trade down before the season ( for someone like Gooden ) or to sign someone outright like Ely or Lorenzen Wright and vet additions in the backcourt ( that have been mentioned to ease Thabo's transition to the NBA game ) someone like Adrian Griffin would be perfect 

Plus 2 x 2nd rounders is equal to 20 down pick in the first round anyway . JR got picked at #18 didn't he ?

I think its a good trade for a guy that's not going to get any run on this team . JR will get some run in Denver and we balance out the 2nd rounders we've given away in Tyrus and Thabo's deals plus create further cap flexibility to be a bidder marginally beyond the MLE if we want to , or preserve it to maybe get a deal done during the season if anything comes along that makes sense 

Its not a sexy move but its a smart move


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> My calculations point to us having around $4.8M in cap space with Tyrus Thomas and Thabo Sefolsha signed
> 
> We deal JR for Eisley's _non guaranteed contract_ we cut him and pick up another $1.1M in cap space
> 
> ...


Agreed, although I also agree with the "we could have gotten more for JR" camp.

From the Nuggets, I'd have tried to wrest Julius Hodge from them. That guy got almost no burn but has some real skills that he sort of demonstrated in D-League. I'd like to have at least gotten Hodge out of the deal if we're sending JR.

To be honest, the Nuggets don't make a great trade partner, but if we got the "smart but not sexy" move of Eisley (to be cut) + 2 2nd rounders, and then we turn that cap space into another real player, then I'll be happy. For instance, if it enables us Chris Wilcox or Melvin Ely, I'll shed no tears for JR Smith being gone.


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## Silvio Dante (Jul 4, 2006)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> My calculations point to us having around $4.8M in cap space with Tyrus Thomas and Thabo Sefolsha signed
> 
> We deal JR for Eisley's _non guaranteed contract_ we cut him and pick up another $1.1M in cap space
> 
> ...


King, I think you've hit the nail on the head! The move (which will become offical sometime next week) is being made in order to enhance the "big picture" for the Bulls. It gives us some flexibility to get a guy or a couple of guys who may be able to help us in a "need" area, which 2 guard and/or small forward is far from being.

Now, if we're getting Eisley and two 2nd rounders (and I don't know this to be true, yet), I think we should look at it this way: At least we're getting something for virtually nothing.

JR was not going to survive here under the Pax-Skiles regime. The deal with NOK was not intended to get JR, but to jet Tyson's horrible long-term deal. First off, finding someone willing to swallow Chandler's contract is HUGE! Then receiving someone with the skills, character and savvy of PJ Brown, who, get this --- IS ON AN ENDING CONTRACT is really amazing. The reason JR was included was simply NOK wanted him out of town, and his contract fit the formula that allowed them to to take on Chandler's deal ... simple as that. It's not a case of the Bulls souring on JR. It's simply his contract fit, but unfortunately for him, there isn't any playing time for him here. Who do you want him to play in front of? Gordon, Hinrich, Sefolosha?

Yeah, he's got hops ... so did E-Rob and Corey Benjamin.

Please, people.

I know, I know, he's only 21, we should give him a chance.

Well, we've been down that road before with Curry and Chandler ... drove that road for four and five years, repsectively. Neither ever came close to living up to their potential ... why do you think JR will, now?

It was pretty evident when Kobe came out of HS that he was going to be a stud, especially after a couple of seasons. Same goes for KG, T-Mac and Amare. JR ain't even close to being one of those guys. So you think we should wait until the February trade deadline ... for what? To finally figure out that he aint what he should be? Who's going to take him, then? I guess then we should just send him home or cut him. But if we do that in February, we get ZERO for the guy. This way, if we're getting two 2nd round picks, we've accumulated a couple of assets that we may be able to flip in a future package with a current player for someone who actually may help us.

In an earlier post, someone wrote words to the effect that maybe JR only needs a little more nurturing, and if that happened, he could turn into a top player ... now I ask, is Skiles the type of coach who'll hold someone's hand?

If JR lands in Denver, Pax has done him a major favor. He'll have a real shot to turn his career around with the Nugs because they need an athletic 2 guard who can pop from distance. We don't ... so let's move on. :twave:


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## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

Silvio Dante said:


> King, I think you've hit the nail on the head! The move (which will become offical sometime next week) is being made in order to enhance the "big picture" for the Bulls. It gives us some flexibility to get a guy or a couple of guys who may be able to help us in a "need" area, which 2 guard and/or small forward is far from being.
> 
> Now, if we're getting Eisley and two 2nd rounders (and I don't know this to be true, yet), I think we should look at it this way: At least we're getting something for virtually nothing.
> 
> ...



I agree w/ most of what you said...BUT, at the same time, I still think it would be a mistake...It's a tough situation b/c almost no matter what you trade him for, you're not going to get equal talent for him...will he get much run w/ the Bulls? It doesn't look like he would but ya never know...personally, I think he's talented enough that you wait until after the season has started before you decide to make a move or not. You can't say that just b/c Tyson and Eddy never came around that another young guy (JR in this instance) won't. Each player is different, you can't lump them together...I don't know how much getting a guy like a Lorenzen Wright or an Ely (as a previous poster mentioned) would help the team. I mean, is getting one of them or a guy like that really gonna make the Bulls more of a contender than they already are? I don't think so. They wouldn't play much at all and if they did, that means a guy currently on the roster would get less playing time, which I don't think would be a good thing whether it's Big Ben, P.J., TT, or Nocioni, etc...I'd much rather see what you have in J.R. during the season first...at the same time, I understand the trade him immediately side...but I wouldn't do that...


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> My calculations point to us having around $4.8M in cap space with Tyrus Thomas and Thabo Sefolsha signed
> 
> We deal JR for Eisley's _non guaranteed contract_ we cut him and pick up another $1.1M in cap space
> 
> That gives us $5.9M in remaining cap room...


That's what I thought as well, but it's been reported Wallace's contract will be front-loaded. His deal supposedly starts around $16-17M, not $13-14M like we had thought. 

As for the trade, I don't like it at all. J.R.'s not even getting a chance to prove himself. At least give him a training camp with Skiles and the rest of the guys to find out for yourself if he's really a lost cause. Tim Thomas got all of training camp, preseason, and a few regular season games before we told him to go home. I say we give J.R. at least training camp to see what he's got. You could always get a couple of 2nd rounders for him a few months from now. Why give up on him so soon? 



theanimal23 said:


> Pax has stated that we can only bring in players who may cause a disruption if we have the right team in place. Sort of like Detroit bringing in Sheed, SAS bringing in Big Dog. Well why is our team not in that place right now? I see us being able to handle a player who could fit the disruptive mold. We got two steady vets: Ben Wallace and PJ Brown. The rest of our guys are young by age, but not in maturity.


 :clap:


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## draft tyrus (Jun 29, 2006)

give us sources before you start acting as though it's a done deal.


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## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

First I thought it was a trade of JR for Bowen. :nonono:

Then I see Eisley's name and I think "Is he still in the league????" 

I'd rather trade for Ernie Isley!!!!! The sounds from his guitar would be far more entertaining than the sight of Eisley in a Bulls uniform.


If that's the best Pax can do with JR, the he got raped on the Chandler deal!!!!

:banghead:


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Silvio Dante said:


> The deal with NOK was not intended to get JR, but to jet Tyson's horrible long-term deal. First off, finding someone willing to swallow Chandler's contract is HUGE! Then receiving someone with the skills, character and savvy of PJ Brown, who, get this --- IS ON AN ENDING CONTRACT is really amazing.


TC gets back to 04-05 it's not a horrilbe deal, but it's market. TC improves on 04-05, it's a great contract for him. So either Pax was really stupid to sign him in the first place or Pax has a real good chance of looking stupid down the line.


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## jalen5 (Nov 19, 2004)

SALO said:


> As for the trade, I don't like it at all. J.R.'s not even getting a chance to prove himself. At least give him a training camp with Skiles and the rest of the guys to find out for yourself if he's really a lost cause. Tim Thomas got all of training camp, preseason, and a few regular season games before we told him to go home. I say we give J.R. at least training camp to see what he's got. You could always get a couple of 2nd rounders for him a few months from now. Why give up on him so soon?
> 
> 
> :clap:


I agree 100%!!!!!!!!!!!! :clap:


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

SALO said:


> That's what I thought as well, but it's been reported Wallace's contract will be front-loaded. His deal supposedly starts around $16-17M, not $13-14M like we had thought.
> 
> As for the trade, I don't like it at all. J.R.'s not even getting a chance to prove himself. At least give him a training camp with Skiles and the rest of the guys to find out for yourself if he's really a lost cause. Tim Thomas got all of training camp, preseason, and a few regular season games before we told him to go home. I say we give J.R. at least training camp to see what he's got. You could always get a couple of 2nd rounders for him a few months from now. Why give up on him so soon?


I agree. The thing with our team is, most guys potentials are to be all-stars. You could that this is their ceiling. We have yet to see Tyrus or Thabo play in the NBA. They could have higher ceilings. But for the rest of our team, no one has the talent to be a top tier player at their position. JR Smith has that. Traditionally, you need a star to take you to the next level. I know we are more in the Detroit-mold than anything. But JR Smith could be that star. Sure, it might be a small chance. But it is also for a small price. We are not losing much with gambling on him.

The thing that I'm afraid of. Say he blows up, but only b/c it is a contract year. Then we are screwed. But, he may then have higher value at the trade deadline.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Bulls4Life said:


> If that's the best Pax can do with JR, the he got raped on the Chandler deal!!!!


Not from the Bulls perspective.

They have replaced the guy they "kinda had" to sign with someone they wanted.

Saving some money, still under the cap, bring in a good citizen like PJ... getting rid of someone that exudes "the element" for an expiring deal is just a cherry on the Sunday.

The Chandler trade was never about becoming a better basketball team, at least not in the way the most profitable team in the league should have to go about it.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Bulls4Life said:


> First I thought it was a trade of JR for Bowen. :nonono:
> 
> Then I see Eisley's name and I think "Is he still in the league????"
> 
> ...


No offense, but I'll pull my hair out if I hear another person say that we're trading for Howard Eisley.

*Eisley is not the point of this trade*

I suggest reading SausageKing's post at the end of page 5.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

yodurk said:


> No offense, but I'll pull my hair out if I hear another person say that we're trading for Howard Eisley.
> 
> *Eisley is not the point of this trade*
> 
> I suggest reading SausageKing's post at the end of page 5.


SausageKing probably has a better understanding of how much cap room we have left than I do. But, I did not think we had 4.8 million left after signing Ben Wallace. I figured it to be at max $2mil if we have signed him to a front-loaded deal as being reported. 

I would not mind seeing JR gone if we can swing a deal like this: JR + Sweets (and Victor if needed) for Gooden. I think we can land Gooden just above MLE money. I personally would want to sign him to a 4 year deal. So as Gooden comes off the books, we can sign Tyrus then.

Gooden and the Cavs will likely not come to an agreement. We got a chance to get him. We might as well take that chance and try to win the East this year. Even if Tyrus comes along slowly, we got a good lineup of Wallace, Brown, Gooden, Allen, and some Noce for our 4-5 spots.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

I saw this trade on realgm , and I would love it:

Bulls trade: Sweetney and JR Smith
Lakers trade: Mihm

All players have one this year on their deals unless JR Smith's team option is picked up. I believe the Lakers are committed to Kwame as a center, and young Bynum should probably get some backup minutes. Brian Cook, at 6' 10", 240, is big enough to get some minutes at center. Meanwhile, Kobe just had minor knee surgery...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2520373

...and he doesn't really have anyone of any great talent to play next to play next to him in the guard core. I think Smith and Sweetney could both be helpful to the Lakers. I'd also love to see what Phil Jackson could do to help JR Smith maximize his talent.

Meanwhile, Mihm is one of the only 7 footers in the league who might be available for a trade, has little money left on his deal, and scores over 10 points per game. Think of him as Eddy Curry light.

Hinrich, Duhon, Miiles?
Gordon, Sefolosha, Griffin?
Nocioni, Deng, Khryapa
Brown, Thomas, Allen
Wallace, Mihm, Schenscher?

I like that lineup a little better than the one we have right now.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Bulls trade: Sweetney and JR Smith
> Lakers trade: Mihm


This would be a great trade. Mihm has 1 year left at $4.2 mil/year. I personally like Cook more than Mihm, but the Lakers would not give up Cook who is a decent rebounding big man with range. Another guy I would be interested in would be Brezec. But I don't see Charlotte trading him at all.

I'd take Mihm over two second rounders.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

theanimal23 said:


> SausageKing probably has a better understanding of how much cap room we have left than I do. But, I did not think we had 4.8 million left after signing Ben Wallace. I figured it to be at max $2mil if we have signed him to a front-loaded deal as being reported.
> 
> I would not mind seeing JR gone if we can swing a deal like this: JR + Sweets (and Victor if needed) for Gooden. I think we can land Gooden just above MLE money. I personally would want to sign him to a 4 year deal. So as Gooden comes off the books, we can sign Tyrus then.
> 
> Gooden and the Cavs will likely not come to an agreement. We got a chance to get him. We might as well take that chance and try to win the East this year. Even if Tyrus comes along slowly, we got a good lineup of Wallace, Brown, Gooden, Allen, and some Noce for our 4-5 spots.


My post was on the basis that it wasn't front loaded as I haven't read anything definitive on that issue yet - only opinion 

If it is - then doing this trade would give us $3.3M in cap room not $5.8M 

For the record I love the Sweetney / Smith for Mihm trade


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## H.O.V.A. (Jul 13, 2005)

JR Smith is a nazi. He's a rapist. He's a felon. He's a murderer. He also wears velcro shoes because he doesnt know how to tie a knot.

How do I know these things?

Because Byron Scott and the Denver front-office told me.


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## Waukee (Jul 14, 2006)

H.O.V.A. said:


> JR Smith is a nazi. He's a rapist. He's a felon. He's a murderer. He also wears velcro shoes because he doesnt know how to tie a knot.
> 
> How do I know these things?
> 
> Because Byron Scott and the Denver front-office told me.


 He's not a racist or a felon...JR Smith is just an idiot.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> I saw this trade on realgm , and I would love it:
> 
> Bulls trade: Sweetney and JR Smith
> Lakers trade: Mihm
> ...


JR Smith can only be traded by himself for 90 days.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

lougehrig said:


> JR Smith can only be traded by himself for 90 days.


I thought this was true until I read in ****'s FAQ that the rule you mention above only applies to teams over the cap. We can indeed trade Smith in a package right now because we are, for once, under the cap. 

I will try to look up the passage and add it to this post.

Edit: Here's the rule:

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#67



> For two months after receiving the player in trade or claiming him off waivers, if the player is being traded in combination with other players. However, the team is free to trade the player by himself (not packaged with other players) immediately. *This restriction applies only to teams over the salary cap.*


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## Sigifrith (Nov 10, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> I don't see any problem with keeping him. If he doesn't work out, send him home he is only making a million dollars or so, right? If we can send TT packing worth 16 mil then we can send JR home for 1 mil. .....


The Bull have sent 2 others home, maybe players will wake up when their careers are on the line.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Eisley is an UFA. 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2441631


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