# ESPN.com's Top 25 (June 17th)



## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

1. North Carolina
2. Pitt
3. UCLA
4. Notre Dame
5. Louisville
6. Duke
7. Memphis
8. Miami (Fla.)
9. Gonzaga
10. Purdue
11. Michigan State
12. Arizona State
13. Texas
14. Marquette
15. Connecticut
16. Oklahoma
17. Tennessee
18. Villanova
19. Arizona
20. West Virginia
21. Baylor
22. Wisconsin
23. Kansas
24. Davidson
25. Wake Forest

Also under consideration: Georgetown, USC, Florida, Virginia Tech, Clemson, Syracuse, Saint Mary's, San Diego, Oklahoma State, UAB, BYU, UNLV, UTEP, Mississippi State, Alabama and Kentucky. 

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=3446170


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Notre Dame is way too high. We are as good as anyone offensively but our defense is rather pedestrian. Top 10 is fine but number 4 is slightly overrating us at this point.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

ND = preseason POY of their team!!!


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

TM said:


> ND = preseason POY of their team!!!


Harangody will be in the discussion for sure I doubt he gets it though.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Of course he won't. ESPN has already awarded it to Hansblow.


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## Wade2Bosh (Mar 31, 2004)

Miami is way too high.


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## kansasalumn (Jun 9, 2002)

Kansas is exactly where they should be as only Sharon Collins coming back with significiant playing time. Next one is Cole Aldrich with around 10 min a game then Conner Teahan and Tyrell Reed with less than that. Kansas does have some good Frosh coming in, and the top 2 best Junior College players coming in


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## kansasalumn (Jun 9, 2002)

It is kind of funny he has KU from 4 to 23 just because Mario Chambers is not returning to Kansas. If Super Mario had returned, I would have Kansas in the teens, so going from what I think if he had stayed to now 23 makes more sense. ohh well, I am just a fan not a professional


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

I think Purdue will suprise some people this year. Painter is a good coach and they return a bunch of young players who realy stepped up as freshman and gained valuable experience in the process.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

^Shouldn't be a suprise, especially after what they did last season. They'll do great, but it'll be because they're good, not because they surprise anyone.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

bad list in my opinion.

notre dame, duke, miami, and purdue are not top 10 teams to start the year.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

TM said:


> ^Shouldn't be a suprise, especially after what they did last season. They'll do great, but it'll be because they're good, not because they surprise anyone.


That is true!!


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

rocketeer said:


> bad list in my opinion.
> 
> notre dame, duke, miami, and purdue are not top 10 teams to start the year.


Who deserves to be there in place of these four teams?


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

rocketeer said:


> duke... not top 10 teams to start the year.


incorrect. maybe not 6, but at least 10.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

bball2223 said:


> Who deserves to be there in place of these four teams?


marquette, uconn, texas, arizona state(maybe).


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

TM said:


> incorrect. maybe not 6, but at least 10.


i'm sure they'll deserve to be there at some point in the season because they seem to always be there, but it will be another early tournament exit. they just don't have the talent. singler being a "star" is a joke.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

rocketeer said:


> marquette, uconn, texas, arizona state(maybe).


Texas :Laugh: Give me a break. You lost DJ Augustin who was the best player on your team. Arizona State is a no, if your saying ASU then why didn't you mention Florida who beat them in the NIT quarters? UCONN I agree with. They have the potential to be national champions this year especially with the addition of Kemba Walker. Marquette will be no different than the last couple of years. A good solid team and nothing more.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

bball2223 said:


> Texas :Laugh: Give me a break. You lost DJ Augustin who was the best player on your team. Arizona State is a no, if your saying ASU then why didn't you mention Florida who beat them in the NIT quarters? UCONN I agree with. They have the potential to be national champions this year especially with the addition of Kemba Walker. Marquette will be no different than the last couple of years. A good solid team and nothing more.


florida lost marreese speights or else they would be in the top 10 most likely. and you really can't base everything on one game when projecting the next season's rankings.

and i'd take teams like villanova, west virginia, and arizona over notre dame, purdue, or miami as well.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

bball2223 said:


> Texas :Laugh: Give me a break. You lost DJ Augustin who was the best player on your team.


did you laugh about texas being good last year? they lost kevin durant who was the best player on a team that lost in the 2nd round of the ncaas.

with augustin texas would have been a top 2 team all year. without him, they'll still be top 10-15. expect big things from james and mason.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

rocketeer said:


> florida lost marreese speights or else they would be in the top 10 most likely. and you really can't base everything on one game when projecting the next season's rankings.
> 
> and i'd take teams like villanova, west virginia, and arizona over notre dame, purdue, or miami as well.


-Of course you would take them over ND you would rather die then give them credit for anything. 

-Marreese Speights wasn't Florida's best player. That was Nick Calathes who is returning. They add in another top notch recruiting class and have one of the best coaches in the business in Billy Donovan. 

-West Virginia will be good next year but they lost Joe Alexander who was their best player. It remains to be seen how effectively they replace him. Arizona could be better than the teams you mentioned. Jennings is going to be a stud, Budinger should play up to his potential. Villanova still doesn't have much of a post presence at this point although their guards will be awesome.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

rocketeer said:


> i'm sure they'll deserve to be there at some point in the season because they seem to always be there, but it will be another early tournament exit. they just don't have the talent. singler being a "star" is a joke.


Don't have the talent? Obviously a statement with much thought. As for Singler... Gerald Henderson.

You know good and well that what happened with Texas was not the norm. They better find a PG fast.

BTW, you mentioning Marquette above Duke... you forgot the "(maybe)" after it  Plus, I can't believe you mentioned AZU, especially when you also said Duke has no talent. The Sun Devils have more talent then the Blue Devils? Please.

Another instance where rocketeer just starts typing things without thinking about 1) what he's already said or 2) what's really the case.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

rocketeer said:


> did you laugh about texas being good last year? they lost kevin durant who was the best player on a team that lost in the 2nd round of the ncaas.
> 
> with augustin texas would have been a top 2 team all year. without him, they'll still be top 10-15. expect big things from james and mason.


Texas was good last year but they lost their heart and soul. Losing Durant hurt them but his freshman year Augustin was every bit as important to that team as Durant. He was the best player and your team this year and losing him will be a big loss for you guys. Who plays point for you guys and will they even come close to Augustin's effectiveness? I never said Texas wouldn't be good but ND would have played them tough last year even with Augustin. ND would certianly be the favorite if they played this year. If you can't see why they are ranked ahead of Texas then i don't know what to tell you.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

TM said:


> Don't have the talent? Obviously a statement with much thought. As for Singler... Gerald Henderson.


eh. all of duke's talent is rated higher than they should be which causes the team as a whole to be overrated. henderson is the guy on their team who should be a star. for whatever reason, he just hasn't been one yet.



> BTW, you mentioning Marquette above Duke... you forgot the "(maybe)" after it  Plus, I can't believe you mentioned AZU, especially when you also said Duke has no talent. The Sun Devils have more talent then the Blue Devils? Please.


there is a reason i gave arizona state a maybe. they do have a better post player than anyone on duke and then also have a top 5 player in college basketball. that's enough for me to give them consideration.



> Another instance where rocketeer just starts typing things without thinking about 1) what he's already said or 2) what's really the case.


you disagree about duke obviously. are you telling me those other teams aren't overrated?


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

"overrated" = rated higher than they should be. yes. Marquette and AZU that is. I can live with the other two.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

TM said:


> "overrated" = rated higher than they should be. yes. Marquette and AZU that is. I can live with the other two.


so notre dame should be 4th, miami 8th, and purdue 10th?


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

i'm gonna need the quote because i dont recall saying that


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

bball2223 said:


> Texas was good last year but they lost their heart and soul. Losing Durant hurt them but his freshman year Augustin was every bit as important to that team as Durant. He was the best player and your team this year and losing him will be a big loss for you guys. Who plays point for you guys and will they even come close to Augustin's effectiveness?


you realize that at times even while augustin was on the floor last year, justin mason ran the point. he was effective in doing so.



TM said:


> You know good and well that what happened with Texas was not the norm. They better find a PG fast.


right. it's not the norm. but texas lost durant and returned the rest of the team and we all saw what happened last year. and you know what happened the last time texas had a star pg? tj ford left early. the next season texas started the season ranked 11th, finished the big 12 tournament ranked 11th, and lost in the elite 8. this texas team should be similar returning mason(who can play point), abrams(who better hope he can play point if he wants to keep playing basketball after this year), james, atchley, and gary johnson. the only question is depth on the perimeter.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

TM said:


> i'm gonna need the quote because i dont recall saying that





> "overrated" = rated higher than they should be. yes. Marquette and AZU that is. I can live with the other two.


i wasn't sure if that meant the other teams(being notre dame, miami, and purdue that i had mentioned earlier) were properly rated.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

no, my bad. you're group of teams.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

I'll revisit the Texas being better than ND and others argument.


ND vs. Texas Starting 5's:

PG: Tory Jackson vs. Justin Mason Advantage: ND 

Comments: Mason is a solid player as is Jackson. Jackson is a lockdown defender and a great distributor plus he has an experience advantage over Mason. Very underrated nationally and is probably the 2nd best player on the ND squad.

SG: Kyle McAlarney vs. AJ Abrams Advantage: Push

Comments: Both are shooters. They both are expected to light up the scoreboards and both do that. Not much seperates the two. 

SF: Zach Hillesland vs. Damion James Advantage: Texas big-time

Comments: James is ready to breakout after taking a backseat to Augustin and Durant. Hillesland is a good defender, rebounder, and is very versatile but he can't shoot and isn't even near the athlete James is. 

PF: Luke Zeller vs. Gary Johnson Advantage: Push


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

I'll revisit the Texas being better than ND and others argument.


ND vs. Texas Starting 5's:

PG: Tory Jackson vs. Justin Mason Advantage: ND 

Comments: Mason is a solid player as is Jackson. Jackson is a lockdown defender and a great distributor plus he has an experience advantage over Mason. Very underrated nationally and is probably the 2nd best player on the ND squad.

SG: Kyle McAlarney vs. AJ Abrams Advantage: Push

Comments: Both are shooters. They both are expected to light up the scoreboards and both do that. Not much seperates the two. 

SF: Zach Hillesland vs. Damion James Advantage: Texas big-time

Comments: James is ready to breakout after taking a backseat to Augustin and Durant. Hillesland is a good defender, rebounder, and is very versatile but he can't shoot and isn't even near the athlete James is. 

PF: Luke Zeller vs. Gary Johnson Advantage: Push

Comments: Neither has proven that much although if both play as expected Johnson will hold the advantage. 

C: Harangody vs. Atchley Advantage: ND big-time

Comments: Atchley is a solid player but he isn't even close to Harangody's level. Harangody is as good as anyone in college basketball. 


So we have a 2-2-1 result when we size up the matchups. ND has more experience playing together and returns basically everyone (minus Rob Kurz). Texas lost their best player and arguably the best PG in college basketball. As of now ND is a better team than Texas. I understand you like your team's potential Rocketeer but ND has proven more with the players returning.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

your analysis doesn't make a whole lot of sense, especially the first part.

your description of jackson is a great description of mason. he's the guy texas went to when they wanted to take augustin out or just let augustin play off the ball(which they did throughout the season) and he's a very good defensive player. and when both guys are going to be juniors and mason has started all but the first few games of his freshman year and has gone deeper in the ncaa tournament than jackson, it what way is jackson more experienced than mason?

and this will be mason, abrams, james, and atchley's 3rd year playing together. they definitely have experience playing together.

what really is going to determine just how successful texas is this year is what they get from their inexperienced guards. with dogus balbay, j'covan brown, and i think varez ward coming in, at least one of those guys is going to have to be productive to give the backcourt some depth. wangmene, pittman, and chapman provide enough depth inside for that not to be a problem at all. balbay has experience playing for turkish youth national teams and has been with the team for a year(he got injured and didn't play so i'm assuming he redshirted) so he'd be the most likely of the guards to have an impact.

texas was better than notre dame last year. both teams lost an important player(though obviously texas lost a better and more important player). you pass off losing kurz as if it was nothing, but he was notre dame's 3rd leading scorer and 2nd leading rebounder.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

rocketeer said:


> your analysis doesn't make a whole lot of sense, especially the first part.
> 
> your description of jackson is a great description of mason. he's the guy texas went to when they wanted to take augustin out or just let augustin play off the ball(which they did throughout the season) and he's a very good defensive player. and when both guys are going to be juniors and mason has started all but the first few games of his freshman year and has gone deeper in the ncaa tournament than jackson, it what way is jackson more experienced than mason?
> 
> ...


Okay then Jackson vs. Mason is a wash. Who says I was passing Kurz loss off as nothing? I know he is a huge loss I also know Zeller or Hillesland is very capable of providing similar production. Mason could fill Augustin's void but he isn't going to be as good as Augustin was. Augustin was Texas equivalent of Harangody. If anything these teams are very similar. Harangody is the best player on either team and that IMO makes the difference.


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