# IS 4th really out of the question?



## Markffd (Oct 20, 2002)

IMO, the Raptors have a shot at getting the 4th seed, it isn't LIKELY, but it isn't out of the question. I think 5th or 6th is what is expected. 

New Jersey is without a doubt more stacked then the raptors, they have a prooven centre, kidd, martin, and jefferson, pplus a good bench. 

Detroit- Has a stacked frontcourt and hamilton contributing.. and most games we stayed close to them

Now, Orlando and Philly both got better this season, but win and loss coloumn aside they weren't that much better than us last season. We beat orlando a couple of times and that was without carter.. Philly got better with robinson, but with carter healthy and better defense we could contend with Philly.

We are deeper then boston in my opinion, peirce is amazing, but walker is very streaky and we could get higher in the standings than boston. We beat them WITHOUT CARTER....

New Orleans is ok, again i think we are better, they lost elden campbell as well

Indiana is very good, but i think we are better, they lost miller and we played them most of the time well without carter...

Finally, Chicago, New York, Clevand, Atlanta these are all teams in the rebuilding stage and we are defintaly better then them with a healthy team...


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

We're not better than the Pacers.

I agree that we can be a top 4 team, but you can't base it on a couple games.

Just by looking at the rosters, with a healthy team we're better than the Magic and Celtics.

The Sixers have a great combination of swingmen and front court players... possibly the best all around starting 5 in the East.

The Hornets have two all stars and a better supporting cast than the Celtics... I'd say we're about even with them.

Chicago will be fighting for the 8th spot most likely with the Raptors.

We can be anywhere from a 3-8th place team in the east, but I think we'll be 4th-6th, with Philly and NO.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I think everyone is expecting Detroit to do a little too well.

What Detroit had last season was hardnosed D and mediocre O. This season, with vets Cliff and Curry gone, I think their intensity might drop.

Larry is someone who won't hesitate to trade the entire roster to make the team the way he wants it. If he gets into training camp and sees what it is like to not have a superstar scoring machine at his disposal... I fear to think that team will be gutted.


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## Ph03NIX99 (Apr 29, 2003)

Any of those team could also have the unfortunate luck the Raptors had with injuries last season and not even make the playoff's. Also if it was already decided who finishes where there would be no sense in even playing. 

A team that nobody thought would win the Stanely Cup in Hockey this past season was the Ducks. Also nobody thought Minnesota would get to the finals against the ducks either but this shows anything is possible. This could always happen in the basketball world even if unlikely.

If a team gels well they can play better than there individual talent is capable of. Case in point the Canadian National Team. Talent wise they are not the 3rd best team in the tournament of the America's but they play very well as a team.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

nope.


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## SlamDunkShot (Jul 24, 2003)

although highly unlikely, i wouldn't say it's impossible. 

the pacers MIGHT be more talented, but you saw what happened with them last year...they completely lost their composure, and lost a whole stack of games that they should have won. and with bird firing isiah, jermaine o'neal isn't a happy camper.

the magic are pretty much a one man team. they don't have the depth needed to be a real contender.

boston will keep jacking up the 3's....

the sixers are good when they're on...the only trick is getting there and staying that way....

and charlotte is probably around the same as the raptors in terms of talent.

it really comes down to how kevin o'neil can put the team together this year. if everyone does their part, i think the raps could be a contender for at least the second round (assuming we stay healthy, of course).


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

pacer's first round exit can be pointed towards enitirely to isiah. he can't coach for sh*t with such a deep and talented team. 

now miller's gone and Mercer is shipped.


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## Ph03NIX99 (Apr 29, 2003)

Man that doesn't say much for the Raptors when Charlotte who doesn't have any players yet and won't till next summer has the same talent as the Raptors.. Joking aside I think you meant to say New Orleans.


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## SlamDunkShot (Jul 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ph03NIX99</b>!
> Man that doesn't say much for the Raptors when Charlotte who doesn't have any players yet and won't till next summer has the same talent as the Raptors.. Joking aside I think you meant to say New Orleans.


haha....damn, didn't even realize. they'll always be Charlotte to me!


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> I think everyone is expecting Detroit to do a little too well.
> 
> What Detroit had last season was hardnosed D and mediocre O. This season, with vets Cliff and Curry gone, I think their intensity might drop.
> ...


are you crazy? detriot is stacked.. billups hamilton wallace.. and larry isn't the gm of the team...


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> 
> 
> are you crazy? detriot is stacked.. billups hamilton wallace.. and larry isn't the gm of the team...


you underestimate the power of veteran leadership.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SlamDunkShot</b>!
> although highly unlikely, i wouldn't say it's impossible.
> 
> the pacers MIGHT be more talented, but you saw what happened with them last year...they completely lost their composure, and lost a whole stack of games that they should have won. and with bird firing isiah, jermaine o'neal isn't a happy camper.


The firing of Thomas was the smartest thing they did all offseason. That's the reason they broke down in the middle of the season. It won't happen again. I guarantee it. Jermaine's gonna talk to Bird and Walsh after the tournament and that'll help him. By the time the season starts the team will be together and in better form than last season.


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## arcos (Jun 5, 2003)

The Raps will be scrapping just to make the playoffs...lets face it-we've got a coach who's never coached a game in the NBA, a superstar that's had pretty serious injury problems, a PG who's held together with masking tape and an undersized offensively challenged centre who's on his last legs...that being said, thinking about a 4 seed is a bit optimistic and in reality the 8 seed is more likely.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arcos</b>!
> The Raps will be scrapping just to make the playoffs...lets face it-we've got a coach who's never coached a game in the NBA, a superstar that's had pretty serious injury problems, a PG who's held together with masking tape and an undersized offensively challenged centre who's on his last legs...that being said, thinking about a 4 seed is a bit optimistic and in reality the 8 seed is more likely.


another one who is degrading the value of leadership. reason why raps did so poorly last year was lack of roles/leadership. adding Curry in was a GREAT idea and everyone knows KO orchestrated the heavy D that DET had the past 3 years. now, add in a determined VC and good backups, #4 is not being optimistic. it's more realistic than you would like to believe.


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## arcos (Jun 5, 2003)

hey don't get me wrong murdarous...I'd love to see us lock up the 4 seed but a lot of things will have to fall into place for that to happen. If VC returns to form and Bosh contributes in a big way (2-3 blocks a night and eats a lot of glass) than we've got a shot but there's still a lot of if's on this team y'no what I mean?


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## MadFishX (Jun 28, 2003)

we have to concentrate on makin the playoffs first. we shouldnt get ahead of ourselves and talk bout home court advantage just yet...


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MadFishX</b>!
> we have to concentrate on makin the playoffs first. we shouldnt get ahead of ourselves and talk bout home court advantage just yet...


I agree with that -- while I think a healthy season probably nets you the 7-8 seed no problem, it's far from a gimme getting into the postseason.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> 
> 
> you underestimate the power of veteran leadership.


they're deep at every position.. even at CENTER. i honestly think they are going to be the team to beat in the east.. curry and rob aint gonna make a diff..


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## Red_Bandit (Apr 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> 
> 
> another one who is degrading the value of leadership. reason why raps did so poorly last year was lack of roles/leadership. adding Curry in was a GREAT idea and everyone knows KO orchestrated the heavy D that DET had the past 3 years. now, add in a determined VC and good backups, #4 is not being optimistic. it's more realistic than you would like to believe.


murdarous, lets not overvalue leadership. Bryon Russell, Charles Oakley, Christian Laettner and Michael Jordan's leadership took the Wizards how far this past year? Mark Jackson, Karl Malone and John Stockton's leadership took the Jazz how far this year?


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> 
> 
> another one who is degrading the value of leadership. reason why raps did so poorly last year was lack of roles/leadership. adding Curry in was a GREAT idea and everyone knows KO orchestrated the heavy D that DET had the past 3 years. now, add in a determined VC and good backups, #4 is not being optimistic. it's more realistic than you would like to believe.


the reason the raptors did poorly last year is cause they were all injured... it wouldn't matter if we had marco polo leading the team we still woulda sucked...


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## badfish33 (Feb 27, 2003)

What are you talking about toronto being the number 4 seed. I mean new jersey, detroit, philly, orlando, new orleans, indiana. Toronto will probably end up being 8 seed, maybe 7th if you overachieve and VC stay healthy.

If Orlando is a one man team, what is toronto? 
Orlando have T-mac, juwan howard, gooden, giricek, Lue
Toronto have VC, Peterson, Murray, Bosh

Common, you know you are not better tan any of those trams, and clearly not better than orlando

Orlando was a one man team.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

those injuries were kinda suspicious to me. i don't really think the players were that injured that they couldn't play. 

:dunno:


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>badfish33</b>!
> What are you talking about toronto being the number 4 seed. I mean new jersey, detroit, philly, orlando, new orleans, indiana. Toronto will probably end up being 8 seed, maybe 7th if you overachieve and VC stay healthy.
> 
> If Orlando is a one man team, what is toronto?
> ...


TO can be better than Orlando cuz they are much deeper. you're basing the success of of Orlando through Howard, who has not proven anything that he can lead teams, gircek and gooden both sophomores, and lue who is practically a journeyman.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

In playoff basketball, I belive Raptors will be playing Iverson. I mean Iverson will be the only obstacle here.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> 
> 
> TO can be better than Orlando cuz they are much deeper. you're basing the success of of Orlando through Howard, who has not proven anything that he can lead teams, gircek and gooden both sophomores, and lue who is practically a journeyman.


honestly.. oralando is a DEEPER team and much more talented.. it's pretty clear.


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## CrimsonShadows (Jun 12, 2003)

ok then let break down TO vs Orlando and see where we are at 

Vince vs Tmac
Antonio Davis vs juwan howard
Bosh vs Garrity
JYD vs gooden
Mo pete vs giricek
Alvin vs Lue


We aren't doing too bad so far
they still have
Bogans and Gaines whom aren't really tested

And we still have
Moiso and Curry who are question marks as well

I think the teams are pretty evenly matched. If both are healthy we would have a pretty good game.


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## badfish33 (Feb 27, 2003)

Common I know you are a fan of Toronto and I hope the best for them but they are not deep. They have Vince and some average players and scrubs. Just because of Vince and a little help from the others I believe they will be an 8th seed. If one of the average players step up his game maybe they can reach the 7th spot. 

Orlando is not the deepest team but is clearly deeper than toronto.


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## CrimsonShadows (Jun 12, 2003)

I think we are reading too much into these predictions. If the teams always prefrom as they do on Paper why even play the games? Toronto on paper is a 7-9 seed team right now but where we end up is anyone's guess. We are in the east though, so it only takes one or two major injuries to other teams to find ourselves with home court. :|


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>badfish33</b>!
> Common I know you are a fan of Toronto and I hope the best for them but they are not deep. They have Vince and some average players and scrubs. Just because of Vince and a little help from the others I believe they will be an 8th seed. If one of the average players step up his game maybe they can reach the 7th spot.
> 
> Orlando is not the deepest team but is clearly deeper than toronto.


LMAO... for a guy who's nickname is badfish I really hate disagreeing with you... but there is no way in hell Orlando is deeper than Toronto.

Juwan Howard, also is probably the most over-rated player in this free agent class. He didn't even put up 20 ppg on the team tied for the worst record in the league! And he's supposed to be Orlando's savior? Yeah right. Gooden won't be an all star this year... he'll improve but not 20 & 10 improve. More like 15/8 improve. Giricek can't play D for his life, and Lue sucks.

That's the starters, other than T-Mac. Their starting lineup minus McGrady isn't even better than the Raptors' starting lineup minus Carter. I HAVEN'T EVEN STARTED ON THE BENCHES!!!

Toronto has 2 young big men capable of making an impact coming off the bench, Bradley and Moiso, and the #4 pick in the draft, Chris Bosh. The Magic have Andrew DeClerq and Pat Garrity off the bench. You're lying if you say you'd rather have those two.

Toronto has Jefferies & Murray to backup the 2/3 positions. The Magic have uhh... Jeryl Sasser? Hah... George Williams is better, he's our 4th string SF!!!

Comparing Orlando's depth to Toronto's is ridiculous. T-Mac is the better player between him and Vince, but as a team the Raptors are better.


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## SlamDunkShot (Jul 24, 2003)

i don't even know if i'd say McGrady is a better player than Vince. a better scorer, yes. he's still too greedy to be a great player though. he plays like it's HIS team...taking shots whenever he wants them, disrupting his teams flow, etc, etc.

Vince is always looking for ways to make his team better. He doesn't need to score 30 points every night...


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

with vince back at full strength and with the magic picking up some scorers to help tmac i'd say the odds are pretty close for vince keeping up to tracy in the scoring race. i expect both players to be playing better D next year and getting plenty of assists. really, these two are damn close as players- excellent outside games, extremely explosive (knock), great fadeaways and midrange games (vince with the better fade), etc, etc.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

I think the Raps will finish ahead of 

Philly
Boston
Orlando
New Orleans
Cleveland
Washinton
Miami
Milwakee

The teams I am not sure about are 
Indiana
Chicago
New York

The teams they will almost certainly be behind
Detriot
NJ


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Budweiser_Boy</b>!
> 
> 
> LMAO... for a guy who's nickname is badfish I really hate disagreeing with you... but there is no way in hell Orlando is deeper than Toronto.
> ...


:bowdown: :bowdown:

you are right on the money sir. saying juwan howard is the saviour of the team is as absurd as orlando having a chance at getting duncan. have you been to the magic forum lately? :laugh:

IMO, we have a better starting lineup than the Magic, and we SURE have the better bench. just because the players aren't candidates for 6th man of the year does not mean they do a good job whenever they're called into the game. 

although ppl, let's not make this the 1000th thread debate about who is better, TMac or VC.


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

You people amaze me. Pure lunacy. The entire Magic starting lineup are better players than anyone you have excluding VC. And he doesn't even come close to T-Mac. You people are rediculous. Most insane fans in the NBA. That should be an award or something. 

1. New Jersey
2. Detroit
3. Orlando
4. Philadelphia
5. Indiana
6. Boston
7. New Orleans
8. Chicago

Sorry... but I don't see room for Toronto. I apologize for popping your dream world bubble, but for the sake of the NBA's credibility someone has to bring this fanbase back down to Earth.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>charlz</b>!
> I think the Raps will finish ahead of
> 
> Philly
> ...


What in the world? Are you a maniac? You can't be serious. This is the strangest post I have seen period. I know you are from the T-dot, but still no way is Toronto the 4th best team in the East. I think if you get the 7th or 8th seed you should be proud of yourself. 

Charlz you never cease to amaze me.


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## bisco614 (Aug 27, 2003)

hahahaha, this is too much. A 4th seed? If you guys actually do accomplish that, I will come back here and apologize, but excuse me right now while I laugh. Your comparisons are so biased. You can't say bosh will contribute and then question whether Gaines can do anything. Gaines is the more polished player, bosh is too thin. VC has to prove hes on TMAC's level too, and that he can avoid injury.
The way i see it:
TMAC>VC
Howard > Davis
Gooden > Bosh


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## badfish33 (Feb 27, 2003)

You talk of your rookies as if they were great and the Magic rookies as if they suck already. Who knows if bosh will be better than gaines, or gaines better than bosh. Who knows is keith bogans will be a great player this season or a bust. Rookies are just question marks, so you can't really compare that aspect. 

Vince has not proved he is in the same level as T-Mac. I think he can be almost as good but T-mac is the better player of the two.

Comparing supporting cast, Garrity, Giricek, Gooden , Howard, Lue, Declercq is clearly deeper than Murray, Moiso, Curry, bradley, antonio davis. If you can't see that I don't know where your mind is. 

7th seed at best.


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## Cager (Jun 13, 2002)

The Raptors have a shot for the playoffs but it will only happen if Vince plays well for 70+ games. I don't see what the Raptors did to make a big difference in their record this year. Bosh is great for the future but not for today. Davis is older, slower and more prone to injury. You have no center( even in the East) and you're weak at PG. Carter has been exposed as someone who doesn't handle being pushed around well. That softness will never change permanentlly. He will go through stretches of being a man but he will always revert to his outside jumper. Carter is very good but unless he drives to the basket and is willing to get hammered, the Raptors will not be a real threat.


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## MadFishX (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Cager</b>!
> The Raptors have a shot for the playoffs but it will only happen if Vince plays well for 70+ games. I don't see what the Raptors did to make a big difference in their record this year. Bosh is great for the future but not for today. Davis is older, slower and more prone to injury. You have no center( even in the East) and you're weak at PG. Carter has been exposed as someone who doesn't handle being pushed around well. That softness will never change permanentlly. He will go through stretches of being a man but he will always revert to his outside jumper. Carter is very good but unless he drives to the basket and is willing to get hammered, the Raptors will not be a real threat.


why all tha hate towards carter? do i come to ur chicago board and aruge that eddy curry is NOT the best center in the world. do i come and bash ur hopes by saying "no, the bulls will not win tha championship in 2004, because..blah blah blah"?..no i let u have ur dream and when it doesnt happen, then i tell u why it didnt. so for now..let us have our dream of having a healthy vince, a 4th seed, and a productive davis. thank you..


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MadFishX</b>!
> 
> 
> why all tha hate towards carter? do i come to ur chicago board and aruge that eddy curry is NOT the best center in the world. do i come and bash ur hopes by saying "no, the bulls will not win tha championship in 2004, because..blah blah blah"?..no i let u have ur dream and when it doesnt happen, then i tell u why it didnt. so for now..let us have our dream of having a healthy vince, a 4th seed, and a productive davis. thank you..


Translation: I'm a super homer, and every other Raptors fan who posts on this forum is a homer, and we don't want anyone to come here and burst our bubble and tell us that Vince Carter won't break the single-season scoring record next year, and the Raptors won't go 82-0, and their starting lineup won't be identical to the first-team all-NBA team next year. We'd rather sit here and pat each other on the back all day.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> Translation: I'm a super homer, and every other Raptors fan who posts on this forum is a homer, and we don't want anyone to come here and burst our bubble and tell us that Vince Carter won't break the single-season scoring record next year, and the Raptors won't go 82-0, and their starting lineup won't be identical to the first-team all-NBA team next year. We'd rather sit here and pat each other on the back all day.


I don't think that was exactly what he was saying. But even if he was, that is coming from one person, ArtestFan, not the entire BBB Raptors community. And if that actually is the way you feel about every poster on this forum, why have you been posting here at all for the last few days? If it's as biased and blind as you are suggesting, then it isn't worth your time.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>badfish33</b>!
> You talk of your rookies as if they were great and the Magic rookies as if they suck already. Who knows if bosh will be better than gaines, or gaines better than bosh. Who knows is keith bogans will be a great player this season or a bust. Rookies are just question marks, so you can't really compare that aspect.


Where in my post did I say the Magic's rookies suck and ours are great? I know Bosh won't be a big contributor this year, definately not as much as Gooden did last year, and I know that Giricek will play much better than Jefferies will this year.

Does that mean I think we have the worse team? No.



> Vince has not proved he is in the same level as T-Mac. I think he can be almost as good but T-mac is the better player of the two.


I agree.



> Comparing supporting cast, Garrity, Giricek, Gooden , Howard, Lue, Declercq is clearly deeper than Murray, Moiso, Curry, bradley, antonio davis. If you can't see that I don't know where your mind is.
> 
> 7th seed at best.


Declerq and Lue just plain suck, Howard's stats were largely inflated last season due to playing for the 2nd worst team in the league, Gooden is a good player but he won't be anything that some people are predcting him to be this season, like an all star. Giricek and Garitty are one dimentional shooters.

You also left out 3 key players on the Raptors... that can help your case, can't it? 

Of the players you mentioned on the Raps, only Curry just plain sucks and that's on the court. He's a leader and he will be needed on a team with lack of direction last season. AD isn't as good as Gooden, that's quite obvious, but he's as good as Howard, he's a banger down low, and he provides leadership. The Raptors have two starting SFs, both of whom are better than Giricek or Garrity, in Murray and Peterson, Jerome Williams, who is a great rebounder and hustler - he averaged nearly a double double last season - Moiso and Bradley playing the 4, who both play the same style, plus Moiso is a big time shotblocker. We also have Alvin Williams at the point, who plays good perimeter D, and is a very under-rated point guard.

You're severely under-rating the Raptors' supporting cast.


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## Ph03NIX99 (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Translation: I'm a super homer, and every other Raptors fan who posts on this forum is a homer, and we don't want anyone to come here and burst our bubble and tell us that Vince Carter won't break the single-season scoring record next year, and the Raptors won't go 82-0, and their starting lineup won't be identical to the first-team all-NBA team next year. We'd rather sit here and pat each other on the back all day.


Actually his bubble was a 4th seed team which is realistic. But your bubble of an 82-0 Raptors team sounds better even though very unrealistic. With a 82-0 that would no doubt make us the No. 1 seed not only in the East but also the West.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Cager</b>!
> The Raptors have a shot for the playoffs but it will only happen if Vince plays well for 70+ games. I don't see what the Raptors did to make a big difference in their record this year. Bosh is great for the future but not for today. Davis is older, slower and more prone to injury. You have no center( even in the East) and you're weak at PG. Carter has been exposed as someone who doesn't handle being pushed around well. That softness will never change permanentlly. He will go through stretches of being a man but he will always revert to his outside jumper. Carter is very good but unless he drives to the basket and is willing to get hammered, the Raptors will not be a real threat.


This post is partly accurate. With Carter healthy we can be a playoff team, and a good one too... but that's only IF he is healthy, and plays over 70 games. That's true... without him playing a big number of games, the Raptors can forget about the post season.

However, we have no PG and no center? Antonio Davis is a more than competent center in the east and he can go for a double-double on any given night, especially in the East. Alvin Williams is also a good point guard and he gets the job done. Not many people notice it but he's a better passer than much people credit him for, also.


And on another note, nobody is acknowledging the fact that we got a new head coach and a new style of play. Lenny was extremely laid back and never pushed the players to really go to the basket, and it hurt Vince a LOT. I think with the right coaching, and I do believe we got the right coach, we'll see a Vince closer to the one we saw from 99-01.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> You people amaze me. Pure lunacy. The entire Magic starting lineup are better players than anyone you have excluding VC. And he doesn't even come close to T-Mac. You people are rediculous. Most insane fans in the NBA. That should be an award or something.
> 
> 1. New Jersey
> ...


Bring this fanbase down to earth? Most insane fans in the NBA? Ok buddy....

A 4th seed is not unrealistic for a team like the Raptors in the east. You wanna hear a lot of funny stuff the Magic fans think? Yeah how about the fact that they all think Gooden will be an all star, and how he'll average 20 & 10, and Howard will also have 20 & 10, and T-Mac will average a triple double, and Shawn Kemp will come back to all star form, and wait... get this... they will actually be a TOP THREE TEAM!!!

Now I know not all of that is true... in fact none of it is true... except for maybe how you guys think you're a lock for the top 3 and Gooden is an all star... but the point is, don't generalize our fans. We can come up with a ton of generalizations for your fanbase, but you don't see us bombarding your forum with posts on how your predictions are ridiculous and laughable.



As I was saying... a 4th seed is NOT unrealistic for a team like the Raptors, who have an all star and a solid supporting cast. Aside from the Nets and Pistons, and maybe the Pacers, the east is wide open. And a team with playoff experience (and 2nd round experience, might I add) like the Raptors has a shot at the top 4 as good as a team like the Magic does. If you don't want to accept it, fine. But remember that Vince can change the game, and the last time the team was healthy, it was 3rd place in the east... the team right now is arguably better than it was back then.


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## Cager (Jun 13, 2002)

Madfish33 --- I go to all the Toronto games in Chicago and I love Carter whhich is why it hurts me so much that his game has gone soft. He still is a very good player but greatness is what he is capable of. 

Antonio is over the hill and Alvin's best games were in the playoffs three years ago. He is not a top 15 PG. Antonio at one time was a top center in the East but last year was just the beginning of what you'll see from him.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Cager</b>!
> Antonio is over the hill and Alvin's best games were in the playoffs three years ago. He is not a top 15 PG. Antonio at one time was a top center in the East but last year was just the beginning of what you'll see from him.


So what if AD's over the hill? He can still produce and that's all that matters. He is overpaid, but he can give us 13 points/9 boards over a season, and for the east that's good.

Alvin's best games were last season and the season before. He might not be a top 15 point... actually he might be but I won't get into that, and I'll take his 13/5/4, plus great defense, any day.


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## Cager (Jun 13, 2002)

I have no disagreement about the Raptors making the playoffs. I just do not believe they are a top 4 seed team. Davis and Williams are not bad, they are overpaid. They just aren't good enough to make a serious run in the playoffs.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think that was exactly what he was saying. But even if he was, that is coming from one person, ArtestFan, not the entire BBB Raptors community. And if that actually is the way you feel about every poster on this forum, why have you been posting here at all for the last few days? If it's as biased and blind as you are suggesting, then it isn't worth your time.


Oh don't get me wrong, I don't feel that way about it MYSELF, there are some good posters on this forum such as you and Budweiser_Boy, and maybe others who I am forgetting who are the reason I come to this forum sometimes. I'm just sayin' that it sounded like that's what HE wanted the forum to be.


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

Did a Raptors fan just tell me the Raptors could be a 4th seed while actually questioning me putting the Magic as a 3rd seed? ROFL :laugh:


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> Did a Raptors fan just tell me the Raptors could be a 4th seed while actually questioning me putting the Magic as a 3rd seed? ROFL :laugh:


If you read my post, you'd know that I saie the Raptors could be a 4th seed because the east is wide open other than Detroit, New Jersey and maybe Indiana.

The Magic could very well be a 3rd seed, but they are not by any means a lock for it, or any other playoff spot for that matter. Same goes for the Raptors.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

did someone just say Magic are a lock for 3rd? 

:laugh:


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## MadFishX (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> did someone just say Magic are a lock for 3rd?
> 
> :laugh:



hey, dont blame him, we had a thread that said we're gon be first


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MadFishX</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> hey, dont blame him, we had a thread that said we're gon be first


'we'? don't make me part of that thread


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MadFishX</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> hey, dont blame him, we had a thread that said we're gon be first


we did? where?


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## MadFishX (Jun 28, 2003)

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=50243&forumid=32


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## cram (Jul 18, 2003)

7th should be considered a huge moral victory. Unless Moiso is MIP, or Bosh is ROY, this team is NOT finishing in 4th.


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