# Mike James- who wants him?



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Firstly, I think that we (and BC) do or should want to keep Mike James at the right price. He's a better guard than we're going to find. He can start at PG, he's a great backup PG, and he can play shooting guard. He can REALLY shoot the ball and we need to have shooters around Bosh. He also might be the best penetrator we've ever had (wasn't REALLY VC's forte and Damon couldn't finish in the same way). He's a little bit off the wall but the Raps can use some crazy veteran swagger. That said, we can't afford to overpay at such a crucial point in our rebuilding. We also don't want to lose an asset for nothing. 

Will we be outbid by a team with capspace and lose him with no compensation? Who would do such a thing?

Can BC negotiate a reasonable contract? (I do have some faith in our new GM; I'm pretty glad now that Babcock wasn't left in charge of this offseason)

Can BC get a good sign and trade? Who wants to give up something of worth?

Atlanta comes immediately to mind when thinking of teams that have cap space and need a veteran guard. However, I'm not so sure they'll be so quick to overspend after JJ's hefty contract last season. 

But who'd want to sign and trade for this guy? No one leaps into my mind. Plenty of teams would offer the MLE I suppose but who's going to want to give up decent players to pay MJ upwards of 6 mill? I haven't pondered this very long but here's a question: since we're under the cap could we sign and trade Mike James for a draft pick straight up? I guess it's more likely that he's part of a bigger package but is such a simplistic deal possible?

Any thoughts on Mike James and his upcoming offseason are welcome. Think he wants to sign with us?


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I think he wants to sign with us but if another team offers him more money he will leave, so long as it's for a starting gig, unless the money is a big difference.

I don't think BC will be willing to sign James to a two-year deal with an option. If he plays well we wind up having to deal with this again too soon, and we wind up paying more in the long run. Odds are with Mike's work ethic and desire to be a better player he will at least plateau for the next two or three seasons.


Bottom line, IMO, is if we can find a plug-and-play centre, that will be a bigger priority than keeping James. I think it will probably come down to getting one or the other.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

SkywalkerAC said:


> I haven't pondered this very long but here's a question: since we're under the cap could we sign and trade Mike James for a draft pick straight up? I guess it's more likely that he's part of a bigger package but is such a simplistic deal possible?
> 
> 
> 
> > duh, the other team would also have to be under the cap.


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## MonsterBosh (Feb 9, 2005)

Didn't Bosh say something to the effect that he wanted James to stay with the Raptors .... and if Bosh is going to sign that extension and $13 mil to start in 2007, BC should listen to Bosh.

Besides here is what SLAM!Sports reported on the extension:



> Bosh met with Mitchell and Colangelo on Thursday morning to discuss the season and expectations for the future - and expectations are lofty. Bosh, who was the fourth pick in the 2003 draft out of Georgia Tech, has an open-door policy with Colangelo, free to voice his opinions on everything from playing style to *personnel*.


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## anniebananerz (Jan 8, 2006)

^Personnel as in coaching staff or actual players?


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## aizn (Jun 19, 2005)

6.5-7 mill per for 3 seasons sounds about right. with an optinon on the last year


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

MonsterBosh said:


> Didn't Bosh say something to the effect that he wanted James to stay with the Raptors .... and if Bosh is going to sign that extension and $13 mil to start in 2007, BC should listen to Bosh.
> 
> Besides here is what SLAM!Sports reported on the extension:


BC has that policy with EVERYONE. Including non-players. It doesn't mean he'll do anything. How about we get Milt Palacio and JYD back. Oops.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

speedythief said:


> I think he wants to sign with us but if another team offers him more money he will leave, so long as it's for a starting gig, unless the money is a big difference.
> 
> I don't think BC will be willing to sign James to a two-year deal with an option. If he plays well we wind up having to deal with this again too soon, and we wind up paying more in the long run. Odds are with Mike's work ethic and desire to be a better player he will at least plateau for the next two or three seasons.
> 
> ...


Would you rather have a good big man or Mike James? Because if we sign Mike James to one of these 6 or 7 per year contracts, that will leave our hands really tied in terms of capspace this summer and next. I'm of the school of thought that a quality big man will do more for Chris Bosh (and therefore the Raptors) than Mike James can, and would much rather spend the money there. 

James can walk and hope to get the contract elsewhere, which he won't because I can't see any of the teams with capspace (Chicago, Charlotte, New Orleans, Atlanta, Utah) being all that interested in him. The only teams who would really want him would be able to offer MLE at best.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

the way he's been acting of late has begun to concern me. but i still think there's a chance that he's only uncomfortable with being a free agent, hence leading him to his recent behavior. 

the man has been fantastic for us this season. i think the flaws in his game could easily be dissolved with a different set of players around him and the team playing for higher stakes every night. he was thrust into a star role in some games and he was a virgin in that arena. i'm thinking (hoping) that the person who's offended so many people in raptorland recently is someone who'll either grow out of it with time or cease to exist altogether upon finally signing the contract (and not having to worry about the issue anymore). 

but we are in a strange position, aren't we? can't win (don't sign him- lose him for nothing; sign him- oh boy) ... can't lose (don't sign him- more money to play with; sign him- proven second option for chris). i wonder what the reactions will be.

the more i think about it, though, the more i realize my opinion hasn't really changed. he has value in my world. our replacement for him is currently nameless and certainly unproven. we'd have to take a shot in both cases- if we bring mike along, can he take us to the promised land? if we don't, do we have someone to fill his key role?- but i'd prefer taking the one with him on board. his passion is fun, i think, his will to win cannot be mistaken, and he obviously fits well in the city and locker room. his personality fills a lot of holes that most people don't see- in other words, without him everything would change. so while he may not be perfect, our alternatives are limited if we're planning to win next season or even the following year.

he'll eat into our cap but really... who else is available? his contract (5-7 mil) is a bit of a moot point to me. he's certainly in the top 5 among available free agents this summer (if you're looking through the ballocks lens, anyway).

peace


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

Double post-oops


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

Just a thought in terms of a team who might want him and a sign and trade. Memphis will have Bobby Jackson leaving and Chucky Atkins likely leaving this offseason as FAs, leaving only Damon Stoudamire at PG (who has had health issues).
If Memphis loses again in the playoffs and doesn't manage to win a game, they might want to shake things up a bit.
I was thinking this:
Mike James signed to a 2 year (it seems to be what he wants) $14 million deal, shipped to Memphis.
Mike Miller gets dealt to Toronto.

Memphis gets out from under Miller's contract and gets a tough, scoring combo guard.
Toronto gets a very highly skilled wing man, great shooter and ballhandler, a young veteran at only 26 years old..

Toronto gets the better talent but also takes on a longer contract which offset the talent imbalance. *Joey Graham could be included as this acquisition would leave him with almost no playing time with a future 1st coming back from Memphis. Could be good for Joey as I see him as a Battier type player so who better to play under.

Toronto's new wing rotation would be solid with MoPete, Miller and Charlie with Charlie still plugging in minutes backing up the 4.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Bosh was asked what the most important move would be in the offseason. Getting a strong defensive C or re-signing MJ. Bosh said getting the C was the most important.

So if BCol can get that C Bosh understands MJ might have to go elsewhere to get his money.

But losing MJ means we have to use whatever cap space we do have to replace him. Which won't be easy. This guy worked the 2 man game with Bosh extremely well. He was a big time scoring threat for both the pull up J or going all the way to the hole. Teams had to respect that and couldn't just double Bosh on the pick and roll.

MJ took a lot of pressure off Bosh. Games where Bosh was fumbling the ball down the stretch MJ took over. Kept us in the game and won us a few. Otherwise the big story of those games would be Bosh's failure down the stretch and is he worth max money.

Also, lets take a good look at MJ and compare him to what we got from VC the last 2 seasons he was a Raptor (not the 16 games he was tanking for a trade).

VC
22.5ppg on 20 shots per game shooting 42%fg and 38%3pt 4.8 ast
20.6ppg on 17.7 shots per game shooting 46%fg and 34%3pt 3.3 ast

MJ
20.3ppg on 15.5 shots per game shooting 47%fg and 44%3pt 5.8 ast

Think about that. MJ was waaayy more efficient than VC. Took less shots, scored just as well, shot a higher percentage, and had more assists. VC touched the ball every possession as a Rap and could do whatever he wanted with it. He also had more veteran help around him to get easy assists and buckets but couldn't do better than MJ. Who was the selfish player again?

Team record sucked with both players. So what is MJ worth if VC is a max money guy?

And why wouldn't MJ be worth 7 or 8 mill as a SG in the league who could also play some PG for you.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

lucky777s said:


> And why wouldn't MJ be worth 7 or 8 mill as a SG in the league who could also play some PG for you.


*
If Mike James were 4 or 5 inches taller, he'd be an allstar*. But his size forces him to play out of position. He can play PG, but he's not a natural PG, he's a PG because he's too short to play SG in the league. When he plays SG, he becomes a defensive liability which offsets his offensive skills. Man if he just had a few more inches.....


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

lucky777s said:


> Team record sucked with both players. So what is MJ worth if VC is a max money guy?
> 
> And why wouldn't MJ be worth 7 or 8 mill as a SG in the league who could also play some PG for you.



Attitude, over-rated D.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

And Vince played D for us?

Now there was a guy who didn't earn his money. Didn't prepare himself in the offseason and didn't give 100% each night.

I will take MJ for half the money VC gets. The dude works hard every single day and has earned what some of these 'superstar' players had handed to them. Francis, Marbury, VC and others are overrated and overpaid. The only one with a ring is MJ.

As for defence, who keeps MJ out of the lane? Nobody. Works both ways. If he is that bad defensively then I guess every guard in the league is bad. Nobody kept Rafer or Alvin or Barrett or Jose out of the lane either. Where is all this great D we want from a PG.

You know what makes a great perimeter defender? A big man to erase his mistakes and a team that plays a strong D system around him. And being a little dirty. That's what makes Bowen, Hunter and others good defenders.

Nobody really stops their man 1 on 1 at the nba level. Not for more than 1 or 2 plays per game.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Keep Mike James 4-5 yrs at $5-7 per. I'm willing to negotiate within those parameters. Why more years? He will be accepting of a role if need be. And I have no problem paying a good role player $7M.


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## aizn (Jun 19, 2005)

i like having colangelo here, sets my mind at ease.

if grunwald was still here, $60 mill for 4 years for mike james! lol

babcock would prob do the same.


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## NBAconsultant (Apr 4, 2006)

> ((James has been invaluable to Toronto's rebuilding effort. He plays with a desire that's infectious, has been clutch down the stretch and is a steadying influence on the team's young players. That includes Bosh, who, despite his vast skill, doesn't turn 22 until March 24.
> 
> "I recognize that he makes things a little easier for me, because without his shooting ability I don't think I'd have as much room as I have to operate," said Bosh, who has voiced his opinion that the Raptors need to keep James on board. "If I get double-teamed, I don't hesitate to kick it out to him. We're not quite Shaq/Wade, but we do have an inside-outside combination."))




```
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/sportsline/main9293272.shtml
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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

Team Mao said:


> Mike James signed to a 2 year (it seems to be what he wants) $14 million deal, shipped to Memphis.
> Mike Miller gets dealt to Toronto.


I like Miller, but is contract is large and lengthy. Not really something I would want to play a player coming off the bench (seeing as Mo Pete and Charlie would start). I'd rather hook James up with a low-20 mil/3 year deal than pay Miller $35 million over 4 years.


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

read something on insidehoops about houston wanting his services.


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## no_free_baskets (Jan 4, 2006)

blowuptheraptors said:


> Attitude, over-rated D.


his d isnt as "good" as when he was in det. (where he most probably got his rep. as a good defender), but thats just because he played a diff. role back then...his role in det. was to be a high energy def. stopper off the bench, which from what i remember, he did a reasonably good job...unlike 5/6 of the raps roster, james has at least the capabilities of playing good d...he probably didnt put as much effort in his d in his contract yr (& hence his apparent lack of playing above avg d) , most probably, because a lot of the times, he was saving himself for the offense end...like most plyrs in the league realize, offense gets you paid in this league, not d...with his contract out of the way, i think hes capable of showing better d then he showed this yr...


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## arcade_rida (Jun 23, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> And Vince played D for us?
> 
> Now there was a guy who didn't earn his money. Didn't prepare himself in the offseason and didn't give 100% each night.
> 
> ...


Yea but VC was way better before his knee injury and tanking thats the difference. When VC was a top 10 player he was light years better then MJ


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

arcade_rida said:


> Yea but VC was way better before his knee injury and tanking thats the difference. When VC was a top 10 player he was light years better then MJ


Not sure what that has to do with anything. Vince signed his extension after his best year ever and then went steadily downhill. He never worked hard in the offseason, which he admitted, and he never brought the consistent effort that we were paying him max money for. All that matters is what production you get for your $$$. MJ is better value.

He was 'injured' for us and then magically recovered and discovered how to post up and get to the FT line again in NJ? That's a BS excuse.

He played 73 games in that season with KO. Only an ankle sprain kept him out for long. He had the ball every possession and still wasn't as efficient or competitive a player as MJ was this year.

Vince was more of a chucker than MJ is. He took horrible shots when he had the talent to get easy shots any time he wanted.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

The way he has been acting as of late, it all seems as if he just cares about his contract. I mean almost every interview towards the end of the season "My contract this..." "Makin money hopefully...that", "My contract..." "I’m a free agent tryin to make some money in this league...."

I loved him in Houston, In Toronto, he even became better, but makes me wonder, does he really care about winning? Or does he care about "MY contract"? That’s the question i hope you guys address. You guys need winners, not guys who play for contracts. I think you guys have dealt with enough season problems in the last few years, hopefully you guys can get out of a slump with your youngsters


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## cv3bandwagon (Mar 16, 2006)

The only difference I see form Mike James and Stephon Marbury and Mike James is that Mike hasn't got his fat contract yet. Nobody else in the leauge really wants him at all, they see it. They see him dominate the ball and get Starbury assits, trys to take over games when he's massively cold. He makes a few jumpshots and then he's god to people. Like Shaq said about having Francis impeding Dwight's development, Mike will do the same to Bosh/Charlie. We need guys who buy into their role, point guards who do their job in distributing the ball getting our star player good open looks, centers that rebound and block shots and don't demand touches, scoring from our wing players that only compliments Bosh and not take touches away from him and so on. I see a guy like Speddy Claxton who breaks down the defense sick and the kick out to his bigs for open jumpers/dunks/lay-ups and then I wonder how sick having a guy like that would be on our team with two great jump shooting forwards in Bosh and Charlie, once we get a point guard like this then we really will have a visious offense.


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## Slade (Dec 7, 2005)

cv3bandwagon said:


> The only difference I see form Mike James and Stephon Marbury and Mike James is that Mike hasn't got his fat contract yet. Nobody else in the leauge really wants him at all, they see it. They see him dominate the ball and get Starbury assits, trys to take over games when he's massively cold. He makes a few jumpshots and then he's god to people. Like Shaq said about having Francis impeding Dwight's development, Mike will do the same to Bosh/Charlie. We need guys who buy into their role, point guards who do their job in distributing the ball getting our star player good open looks, centers that rebound and block shots and don't demand touches, scoring from our wing players that only compliments Bosh and not take touches away from him and so on. I see a guy like Speddy Claxton who breaks down the defense sick and the kick out to his bigs for open jumpers/dunks/lay-ups and then I wonder how sick having a guy like that would be on our team with two great jump shooting forwards in Bosh and Charlie, once we get a point guard like this then we really will have a visious offense.


Agree 100%


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by *OneBadLT123!*
> 
> but makes me wonder, does he really care about winning?


I think MJ cares about winning, but after years of being shuffled from team to team, he understandably might fell a little jaded and has let it been known that he is looking for his.

early in the season I thought he played within the system, it wasn't until the playoffs were well out of reach and Bosh went down that the jacking began. It was then that a lot of people here, including myself kinda soured on him returning.

My thing with MJ, is that I see as a perfect player of the bench, a nice 6th man maybe, but I have a problem with him being our starting PG or SG.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Benis007 said:


> read something on insidehoops about houston wanting his services.


Want to guess how much they can pay without a sign and trade?


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## cv3bandwagon (Mar 16, 2006)

They want him, why I don't know when they are already stacked with undersized combo guards, they can have him. Sign and trade for Stromile Swift works for me, could be alright in a up-tempo offense like the one BC wants ot bring in and a solid 6th man who can play all three froncourt positions for limited minutes.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

cv3bandwagon said:


> They want him, why I don't know when they are already stacked with undersized combo guards, they can have him. Sign and trade for Stromile Swift works for me, could be alright in a up-tempo offense like the one BC wants ot bring in and a solid 6th man who can play all three froncourt positions for limited minutes.


sign/trade for deke lol I wish


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Anyone who thinks Mike makes our team worse, or that we'd be better without him, is in for a rude surprise next season when we go back to having a Kevin O'Neill-bad offense without him.


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## clutchmoney (Feb 14, 2006)

speedythief said:


> Anyone who thinks Mike makes our team worse, or that we'd be better without him, is in for a rude surprise next season when we go back to having a Kevin O'Neill-bad offense without him.


he ain't the only one in the league who can put the ball in the basket. it's simple, the guy shouldn't be running a NBA team as a PG, and is too small for SG. He's good for role position, instant offense, that's about it. He's not going to take us far in the playoffs, you don't win in the playoffs with a guy like that. I want the team to be built properly, not just to get into the playoffs, but to contend. 'm sick of people looking for the quick fix, this team needs to be built the right way. Or else this team won't go really far. I don't mind another bad year, as long the team is going(built) in the right direction.


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

After watching Ben Gordon played today... it reminded me the way Mike James play... i dont know...


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

speedythief said:


> Anyone who thinks Mike makes our team worse, or that we'd be better without him, is in for a rude surprise next season when we go back to having a Kevin O'Neill-bad offense without him.


I think a lot of people are going to be surprised next season when they see how well they see the offense run with Jose Calderon, with a year's experience under his belt, running the offense.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

kirk_2003 said:


> After watching Ben Gordon played today... it reminded me the way Mike James play... i dont know...


I was thinking that same thing.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Team Mao said:


> I think a lot of people are going to be surprised next season when they see how well they see the offense run with Jose Calderon, with a year's experience under his belt, running the offense.


And how ineffective the pick and roll will be when nobody respects his jumpshot?


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

clutchmoney said:


> he ain't the only one in the league who can put the ball in the basket. it's simple, the guy shouldn't be running a NBA team as a PG, and is too small for SG. He's good for role position, instant offense, that's about it. He's not going to take us far in the playoffs, you don't win in the playoffs with a guy like that. I want the team to be built properly, not just to get into the playoffs, but to contend. 'm sick of people looking for the quick fix, this team needs to be built the right way. Or else this team won't go really far. I don't mind another bad year, as long the team is going(built) in the right direction.


The thing is we're not going to get perfect fits at every position no matter how patient we are. You can wait forever for a Steve Nash point guard or a Ben Wallace centre. In the meantime your players are suffering through losing seasons.

Letting Mike James go isn't getting us closer to the noble pass-first point guard. Who is he? Where is he? How can we get him?

I'd rather keep a very good point guard than hope that Colangelo can pull an excellent one out of thin air in the next two, three seasons.


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## [email protected] (Sep 27, 2005)

he said he only wants 2 with 3 a year option


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## [email protected] (Sep 27, 2005)

he is actually a major portion of our offense
offensively we're one of the best teams around, it's slack defense and poor rebounding that screwed us over. if we get rid of james, wouldnt our offense suffer -12ppg (granted our fill in is scoring around 8)? but then, granted our fill in is a pass-first pg, our ppg would actually increase noting that we will have a chance to take higher pct shots. however, Mike James did average a good amount of assists, so how much do we REALLY need a pass-first point guard? priority-wise, a banging centre to hold down the middle is what we need 1st and foremost


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## cv3bandwagon (Mar 16, 2006)

I'd take one step back to go two-three steps forwards int he future with letting Mike go instead of just staying where we are with him now. He's not leading us to the playoffs, and even if we get there not past there. I'm thinking past next season and about the eventual goal of a chamionship contending team. Those who say he's the only short-term option are blind, there are a lot of guys who can temporarily run the offense until a "Steve Nash" comes along. If we don't tie up money in James this year and sign a cheaper option or just let Calderon pull the strings for a year then we have a ton of money to pursue a Hinrich/Ford/Ridnour in free agency. By then again Roko might be ready to come over with his opt out that year. Still you can go after a proven vetran who can run the team if you wish, Jamal tinsly is on the block and could be had for little or we could pursue Speddy Claxton in free agency. Having Mike continually throw up shots outside the flow of the offense is hurting the development of Charlie and Bosh and hurting Mo's game.


As for the offense hurting, the offense is fine Mike or not but the crucial decison and late-game decesion making will only help oru two minutes offense which needs a lot of work.
1.) An intimadator in the paint.
2.) A playmaking point guard.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

^ But if it's going to take us a few seasons to find this mythical point guard, why not have James in the meantime?


And we're not asking James to take us deep into the post season. That's Bosh's job. We're just asking James to be a good point guard.


And the last time a pass-first point guard won a championship was when?


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Many people thought we would never win a game without VC. We were basically the same.

Many people thought giving up Donny and Jalen Rose for nothing would cripple us. Virtually the same.

But I do think losing MJ would hurt our offense. Expecting MoP or Charlie or Joey to step up and be a big time player in the clutch seems like a bad bet to me. And Bosh was not exactly thriving in late game situations. MJ had to bail him out quite a bit when Bosh was turning it over. Bosh needs that strong second scorer to work with. And it has to be a solid ballhandler that the D has to respect.

We would have to give any decent player with a track record 5 mill to come here. Why spend that money on a guy who is a mystery in terms of how he will fit in here and work with Bosh. MJ works. Pay him what he is worth, if we can. MoP is getting 5 mill. MJ is worth at least that. I mentioned the VC and Ben Gordon comparisons before. MJ is better than both for our team.

Who else do you want? Jason Terry? cost big bucks and was on some very bad teams before. He's a scoring guard as well.

Marcus Banks? raw and unproven. Looking for MJ money.

Jarret Jack? raw and unproven.

I still don't know if the Raps can even afford to offer MJ 4 mill to start. Exactly how much cap space will we have? If we sign or trade for a big man that will likely eat up 8 mill of our cap in year 1.

that would mean we can't even do a s&t with MJ since we can't sign him to begin with.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Keep Mike James. 

So let's see.... we want to get rid of Mike James because he can't run an offence???????

Rather then consider what type of player that makes the "best" offence, I will look at the numbers.

Our go to scorer got 23ppg, at a 51% clip. Obviously he is getting some good looks.
Our point guard scored 20ppg, at a 47% clip.

That's a mighty fine efficient 1-2 punch. 

I commend speedythief for his change of thoughts on this issue. I beleive he was not a Mike James fan at the beginning of the year.... i.e not pure pass first mentality. But you know what, he is able to consider what makes our offence the best.. sometimes our ideal type player at a position is not availalble.. or better yet just because a player does not fit our "type" at that position, does not mean he is not one heck of a good offensive player.


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

I can't see how you can argue not to keep him. I wholeheartedly agree that he's not the pass first point guard you'd like running this team. But Mike James is a playmaker, pure and simple. He kept the team in so many games that should've been blown outs. He's a great shooter that makes the possibility of a pick'n'roll with bosh quite lethal. He's an above average defender. Most importantly he's a hard worker and vocal leader. His decisions can be abit suspect but he's a 20ppg scorer while dishing out 5 assists, those are great numbers. I say sign him but split his time between the 1 and 2 spot.
I'm sorry but give me James over Calderon for now. The kid is still raw, can't shoot and can be erratic at times. Up his minutes but don't hand the team to him.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

One of the (many) things that bothers me about Mike James is his choice to go one on five at so many times during the game.
There was one game against Phoenix not too long ago where Marion blocked one of his shots, one of the Raptors got the ball and gave it back to James. Marion was still guarding James and of course James headed straight back at him only to throw up an erratic shot.

It happened so many times over the season where James' ego takes over and he's simply not going to pass to anyone. Not something I like to see in a PG. So many people fail to see beyond the stats and look at how MJ gets those stats, he's a selfish chucker ('I've been jacking all my life, that's how I play'), at his age and with his ego, that's not going to change.

I think we need to be patient with Jose, the guy's got great on-court leadership skills and I've never known an NBA player to have a jumpshot get worse over his career. He can properly run an offense, something which James can't really do. Mike James is not a PG, the only reason he plays PG is because of his height; I'd rather have a real PG who may not be able to score as well running the offense than a SG pretending to. Speedy, there are other plays besides the pick and roll.

I think a S&T with LA would be good with us bringing back Mihm and McKie plus swapping our early 2nd with their late 1st from Miami.


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

Team Mao said:


> I think a S&T with LA would be good with us bringing back Mihm and McKie plus swapping our early 2nd with their late 1st from Miami.


This could make sense, Phil Jackson never seemed to mind having Fisher run his offence, even though he too was a chucker of sorts.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

MJ is taking about 15 shots per game while playing huge minutes, being our 2nd option, and being the primary ballhandler and creator for the club.

Anyone who calls that 'selfish chucking' is crazy. And his numbers went a little higher because Bosh was out for so many games to end the year.

His efficiency is great, hardly a volume scorer like so many guys today.

Watching VC take 33 shots yesterday and seeing the whole Carter repertoire of giggling, sulking, overexaggerating every contact, laying on the floor, and then pounding his chest, glaring, and posing like he's done something incredible after actually scoring a basket just reminded me how glad I am to have that loser off our team. Taking 3 pt shots from 5-6 feet behind the line just because you want to show off is the sign of a selfish chucker.

I'll take MJ for half the money and be quite happy.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

I'm not talking about his numbers or efficiency. How many close games did we lose this year, or OT games? How many times did James decide to not share the ball down the stretch and go into superman mode?

If this team is supposed to be better next year, how is it going to happen if there is no improvement at the PG spot? Or more specifically how can they improve if (not-so) superman is at the helm?

He wants starter money but the "realistic approach" mentioned by BC implies that 7+ mil is out of the question.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I don't see how we can afford to offer 7 mill and still take care of the C spot.

Which means even a s&t is impossible if someone else can offer MJ that much. Unless they have cap space or a trade exemption to send our way.

Would BCol be looking to trade away EVERY marginal player we have in order to max cap space this summer. Move Bonner, Hoff, Ewill, etc to anyone with cap space that will take them without returning a contract.

That could be the only way to have enough $$$ under the cap to sign a big and still sign or s&t mj.

Nobody seems to want to talk about this because we don't know the real numbers, but its pointless to throw out names and trades until we do.


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## no_free_baskets (Jan 4, 2006)

kirk_2003 said:


> After watching Ben Gordon played today... it reminded me the way Mike James play... i dont know...


disagree...i think theres a big misconception by some ppl in regards to gordon...what you have to remember is gordon plays the 2 for the bulls, so its his job to shoot the ball and provide offense...hes is not a selfish player...when he was at conneticut, calhoun had to beg him on more then several occasions to be more assertive on offense and stop deferring to his teammates... if he were to run the 1 for the raps, we would see a lot less overdribbling and 1-5 showdowns, as james is prone to doing...

james to gordon is a bad comparison imo...i really see gordon closer to billups, if anyone...not your conventional pg., but still highly efficient and just deadly in the clutch...

i would do cv for gordon in a freaking heartbeat...


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Gordon takes 1 fewer shot per game than MJ, mainly because of minutes, and scored 4 less points per game.

Meanwhile MJ helped Bosh have an incredible year offensively. People are exagerating the downside with James. He had a handful of bad games in his first year as starting PG with big minutes. With big pressure on him about his contract situation too.

Too much importance is being put on the title of PG. Mike runs the offense. He makes plays. Give him more options on O that he can respect and he will distribute even more.

MoP forces up more bad shots than MJ. But because he isn't called a PG that is ok?

I wouldn't trade CV or MJ for Gordon. Gordon isn't nearly the PG that Mike is, and can't play the 3/4 like Charlie. Too locked in to being a short SG.


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## l2owen (Apr 24, 2006)

ok we can almost all agree that mike james should not be a starter. however, we can agree that as a scorer there are very few people out there that are as good as mike james. hes simply a fantastic shooter. and we know our bench is total garbage. so what is the most logical thing to do ? make mike james lead the second unit of our bench, he will absolutely tear up second stringers of opposing teams. then you bring in a pass first point guard who you want running the show, the guy who makes sure to get everyone involved at the start. draft appropriately, we have many options. we can draft roy , and have mopete and james come off the bench which would be a very nice backup. we could draft rudy , if hes better suited for sf, we get a bench of Charlie and James coming in for Gay/PG/Mo Pete.

the point is that mike james is a fantastic offensive asset that would be invaluable to any team trying to get into the playoffs. hes barely played any minutes his entire career, we assume his body has taken less of a beating, and he wants a short contract. whats there not to like. youre paying 7 to 8 million for a 20ppg scorer, not to mention the other bonuses you get from signing him . i do not think we have the luxery of letting talented 20ppg scorers walk away without at least seriously considering it, even if we have to overpay by 500k-1mil per year in talkss.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> Gordon takes 1 fewer shot per game than MJ, mainly because of minutes, and scored 4 less points per game.
> 
> Meanwhile MJ helped Bosh have an incredible year offensively. People are exagerating the downside with James. He had a handful of bad games in his first year as starting PG with big minutes. With big pressure on him about his contract situation too.
> 
> ...


People are using the style of the PG (and what style of PG they like) as a bias, and therefore are ineffectively assessing the play of James because of this bias.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

JuniorNoboa said:


> People are using the style of the PG (and what style of PG they like) as a bias, and therefore are ineffectively assessing the play of James because of this bias.


Many are also assuming he has no room for improvement. More on-court chemistry with our players could see his APG average increase, which is the stat that is inversely proportional to the amount of complaining you hear about his style.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

blowuptheraptors said:


> I'm not talking about his numbers or efficiency. How many close games did we lose this year, or OT games? How many times did James decide to not share the ball down the stretch and go into superman mode?


Who's to say we'd even be close or in OT if it weren't for James going into 'superman' mode and taking over games (a task that no one was willing to do on a nightly bases).


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## cv3bandwagon (Mar 16, 2006)

Sure look at stats say wow he's a nice player, personally I don't get off on stats. I see him trying to be superman all during the game overdribbling on the top of the key breaking the defense down only when he wants to score, not brekaing it down for easy bucket for others. He really hurts everybody else's numbers on the team, with a different point guard who actually attempts to get his teamates *good* shots instead of just passing to Bosh in a pick n roll or an open jumpshooter saying man I'm making plays. He dosen't even understand what the concept is really. You get a guy that can break down the defense off the dribble and cause havoc in the lanes on the drive who can kick it out to an open jumpshooter (IE Bosh, Villanueva, Mo) like a Brevin Knight, Speddy Claxton then you will truly see this teams offensive potenial.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

shookem said:


> Who's to say we'd even be close or in OT if it weren't for James going into 'superman' mode and taking over games (a task that no one was willing to do on a nightly bases).


I'm not taking that away from him, but Mike lost as many or more than he won for us.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

blowuptheraptors said:


> I'm not taking that away from him, but Mike lost as many or more than he won for us.


this is untrue. we shouldn't write fiction in order to support how we feel. don't need to do that. 

peace


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

The idea that one player wins or loses games in a team game like basketball can not be proven or disproven. Basketball doesn't work that way.


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

SickGame said:


> I can't see how you can argue not to keep him. I wholeheartedly agree that he's not the pass first point guard you'd like running this team. But Mike James is a playmaker, pure and simple. He kept the team in so many games that should've been blown outs. He's a great shooter that makes the possibility of a pick'n'roll with bosh quite lethal. He's an above average defender. Most importantly he's a hard worker and vocal leader. His decisions can be abit suspect but he's a 20ppg scorer while dishing out 5 assists, those are great numbers. I say sign him but split his time between the 1 and 2 spot.
> I'm sorry but give me James over Calderon for now. The kid is still raw, can't shoot and can be erratic at times. Up his minutes but don't hand the team to him.


Great post dude. Took the words right out of my mouth. Repped.

MJ is clutch. He's willing to take the big shots. He's missed a few, but he has hit so many more critical threes. When Bosh misses a clutch shot, people shrug it off. When Bosh hits it, he's up there with Wade and LeBron. MJ? He makes it and it goes unnoticed. He misses and hate-threads start appearing on online forums.

Anyone who thinks Mike James isn't worth any more than the MLE seriously needs to get their head checked. You won't find anyone near him for that price. I was worried that he wanted a long-term deal before, but he's stated he wants a 2-3 year deal. He's one of the best 3-point shooters in the L, putting up 20 points and 6 assists a game, is a veteran and a leader, is clutch, isn't soft, plays defense (if you wanted overrated D, check out Iguodala), and is a point guard. Funny how he's exactly the type of guy we need.

Let him start for the next year or two, and when Calderon is ready, MJ can be our sixth man. He's going to be worth his asking price of +6 million.


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## cv3bandwagon (Mar 16, 2006)

Mike James' play hurts everybody else on the team, plain and simple. Clutch? Man this guy has missed so many late-game shots it's sick, especially when he not only misses but takes the hardest possible shot you could think of, trying to play hero. That late game against New Orleans really showed how clutch he was when he had over three attempts ot win the game, with Mo and Charlie on fire and ready while he was shooting below 25% forced up three's over outsteched defenders. Not only his late game offensive msitake but on defense I've seen a lot of plays where made either terrible decsions or just played soft d. Leaving Damon open for three (thriple the unclutch Lebron who did not have the ball?) leaving Eddie Jones completely open was also unexcusable, also playing soft defense on Jamal Crawford who just took a jumper over James who never even put a hand up for was just friggen lazy.

His play on number like I said is great but his it he game it is detremental to the development of the rookies and Bosh. If somebody played point guard an he played off-guard that would be fine with somebody else holding a leash on him but to quote him "He wants the keys to the car." Right now the raptos offens is so bad with as little off-ball movement as possible becasue the rest of the team knows hey Mike's just going to jack one up and they won't be rewarded for getting good postion on the block or shaking off his defender. Why else do everybdoy hang aroudn the three poitn line? Becase that's the only place Mike knows and can get them the ball, he is an atrocious passer into the post.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

ballocks said:


> this is untrue. we shouldn't write fiction in order to support how we feel. don't need to do that.
> 
> peace


How many games did MJ win for us? I mean game winning shots. Games when he decided to go one on one down the stretch and willed a win?

I know just from the games I attended that MJ was more disappointing game for game than he was good. 

I don't want to paint you guys with the rest. But Toronto fans do this all the time. Falling in love with their players. "Look he averages 20 a game!" Mike is good. But if he were a difference maker, and a clutch player, I dare say that the Raps would not have been one-fer OT games. Blame it on the rest of the team if you want but he is the one forcing those shots and dominating the ball.

You don't remember tuning into the Rap those games and listening to the crew and callers rant about Bosh not seeing the ball in the last 10 mins?

I'm sorry, given his role, he found a way to fail down the stretch more often than not. The only stats that stand out to me in concert with his play are 27 and 55.

And when you relegate him to 6th man, he is just going to go into "name on the back of the shirt" mode again.


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## no_free_baskets (Jan 4, 2006)

lucky777s said:


> Gordon takes 1 fewer shot per game than MJ, mainly because of minutes, and scored 4 less points per game.
> 
> Meanwhile MJ helped Bosh have an incredible year offensively. People are exagerating the downside with James. He had a handful of bad games in his first year as starting PG with big minutes. With big pressure on him about his contract situation too.
> 
> ...


well i think james numbers are slightly inflated and gordons slightly deflated because of their playing time and respective styles of their particular teams...james numbers gets inflated a bit because as we know, the raps def. is atrocious so what happens a lot is that the def. of the opposing team tends to become lax (as they build a big lead over the raps, or what have you) which leads to high up-tempo game where there are much more possessions (and hence more opportunities to score.)

chi. on the other hand, preaches a def. style, which obviously leads to lesser opportunities to put up pts...james also has had consistent playing time 90% of the season where he had at least 35 mins+, whereas gordon min. were very up and down...started maybe 40-45% of the season? its hard to match pts with james when his playing time (many games with 20 mins played) is compared to james...

i agree with the ppl. who say that we wouldnt have won as many games as we did without james, but i disagree that he runs an efficient pt. on a good team...you bring up peterson as an e.g, and i agree that peterson does take bad shot as well, but the difference is mopete plays the 2, james the 1...its his job to distribute and run the offense properly...when your pg., takes bad shots, it pretty much signals to the rest of the players, "ok, the guy that supposed to be passing isnt, so i guess i can shoot out of the flow of the offense too since im not get any touches if i dont jack it up too". also, how many times have we seen james with his head down were we know hes driving too the hoop no matter what...he doesnt even look to pass...this is a regular occurence during a raps game...

he also overdribbles the ball way too much...ive seen way too many too times for my liking where james dribbles out half the 24 second shot clock and then we're pretty much forced to put up a bad shot cause the shot clock is running out...

with the bosh thing, i think bosh would have been amazing with or without james here and its arguable that james hindered rather than helped bosh with what we saw at the beg. of the yr, with his seemingly inability to get bosh the ball in the low post...i dont really have much of an opinion on that, but like i said, its arguable...


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Something that you should remember is that MJ did play a lot of the two this year and a lot of his shots came when playing the off-guard. Does that make it better in some people's eyes?


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

I think some people are expecting too much. Mike James is by no means a perfect point guard but don't expect any Steve Nash clones next season. There aren't too many options out there, especially without giving up either our 5th overall pick or Charlie Villanueva.

I'm a strong believer in signing Mike James to a small-term deal and letting him start until Calderon (or maybe Ukic) is ready to step in. After that, he could fit into a 6th man role. We get to keep our assets and we solve our PG problem. We are not going to be contenders next season so there's no point in making any drastic moves.


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## cv3bandwagon (Mar 16, 2006)

There are other options, don't be completly blind and ignorant. Brevin Knight could be had, Speddy did not get an extension from New Orleans there not on the same terms money wise, Jamal Tinsly is an expiring contract away from a new team, Bobby Jackson although still not a great distributer but a better decesion maker and defender and at a cheaper price. That's only a few options.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Bobby Jackson? We are still talking about PG's, yes? He's 33 years old, not a good 3pt shooter, and *missed over 100 games* his last 3 years in SAC.

Speedy Claxton? Wonderful. A guy that started a grand total of 3 games for the Hornets this year. Started 44 games for a Warriors team that was horrible the year before. And has a career 3pt % of * .189 * Best partial season was 6.2 ast. Compared to MJ's full season of 5.8 this year. Is this really an upgrade?

Brevin Knight? Would be a good pickup but his shooting is just as bad as Speedy's. That means no respect on the pick and roll and Bosh gets doubled. He's also 31 and has missed big chunks of many seasons with injuries. Best pure PG out there but I don't know that he makes us better because we need more scoring around him.

Tinsley is yet another bad shooting PG that can't stay healthy. *Missed 110+ games* with IND the last 3 years. And hoopshype shows him in the beginning of a 6 year/39 mill deal by the way. Cheap?

And none of these guys are lining up to come here unless we overpay. Book it.

Injury prone PG's that can't shoot. Very exciting.


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## cv3bandwagon (Mar 16, 2006)

The pick and roll realy dose not suit Bosh's abilites all that well, you get a guard like Brevin Knight/Claxton/Tinsly who can vreak downt he defesne on the drive and then kick out for easy jumpers then Bosh's unbeliveable mid-rang game would make his game soar into new dimensions, the same goes for Mo and Charlie. Why else has the jumpshooting David West improved so much this season? Much credit must be given to Speddy, I don't really get off on stats like that Speddy gets assits off breaking down defenses and getting his teamates easy shots unlike Mike James who gets Starbury assits.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

cv3bandwagon said:


> The pick and roll realy dose not suit Bosh's abilites all that well, you get a guard like Brevin Knight/Claxton/Tinsly who can vreak downt he defesne on the drive and then kick out for easy jumpers then Bosh's unbeliveable mid-rang game would make his game soar into new dimensions, the same goes for Mo and Charlie. Why else has the jumpshooting David West improved so much this season? Much credit must be given to Speddy, I don't really get off on stats like that Speddy gets assits off breaking down defenses and getting his teamates easy shots unlike Mike James who gets Starbury assits.


I don't know where you're getting all this, Mike's play hurting teammates, not being good at the pick and roll, etc..

Mike is exactly the kind of guard that is well suited to the pick and roll. The defense has to either switch or fight the screen because Mike is a deadly shooter. And if they get too close on him he can dribble drive into the lane and draw the help defender, lob it to Bosh for the inside look, or pass it to him for the mid-range. The James/Bosh pick and roll was our money play.

I would expect it to be better next year too, given the chance.

As for Mike hurting his teammates, why did every Raptor have a career season?


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## cv3bandwagon (Mar 16, 2006)

I'm not sure how you learned how to read either but did I dought Mike's ability to perform in the pick and roll, which he is solid at, not chauncy but solid. I stated that the pick and roll is not that greatly suited to *Bosh's* abilities. He's better suited to have a guard that can take it to the rack and break down the defense and then kick out to Bosh for open j's which he can hit all day long. Same goes for Charlie and Mo, they become twice the player _stat _ wise with a point guard like this.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

cv3bandwagon said:


> I'm not sure how you learned how to read either but did I dought Mike's ability to perform in the pick and roll, which he is solid at, not chauncy but solid. I stated that the pick and roll is not that greatly suited to *Bosh's* abilities. He's better suited to have a guard that can take it to the rack and break down the defense and then kick out to Bosh for open j's which he can hit all day long. Same goes for Charlei and Mo, they become twice the player _stat _ wise with a poingt guard like this.


Isn't that exactly what Mike does?


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## cv3bandwagon (Mar 16, 2006)

speedythief said:


> Isn't that exactly what Mike does?


Not to the extent that these other guards do, they can make the pass withotu telegraphing it like Mike when well he basically trips or brings up solid in a big and then just kicks it out to the first guy available. His skills of the dribble are nothing compared to a claxton or knight. Not only that they look for the open man befor trying to put it up over a 7' center. If you watch some New Orleans games you see what I'm talking about.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

It's give and take, what MJ lacks in some areas he makes up for in others. He's like a poor man's Gilbert Arenas.

MJ has improved every season that he has been in the NBA, that could very well continue into next year. He looks like a guy who could grow with a team and provide them tons of big shots and leadership in the backcourt.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

cv3bandwagon said:


> Not to the extent that these other guards do, they can make the pass withotu telegraphing it like Mike when well he basically trips or brings up solid in a big and then just kicks it out to the first guy available. His skills of the dribble are nothing compared to a claxton or knight. Not only that they look for the open man befor trying to put it up over a 7' center. If you watch some New Orleans games you see what I'm talking about.


I don't watch a lot of Bobcats or Hornets games but the thing that sticks out in my mind when I hear guys like Claxton and Knight getting praised for their passing is how awful they are at shooting. Both of those guys have no range at all and would shoot under 30% without lay-ins.

Mike has an excellent jumpshot from midrange to three point land and can hit running jumpers as well. He's not going to play the pick and roll the same way as the guys you mentioned because if you give him space he'll hit the jumper all night long. He doesn't have to try and get to the rack and draw traffic every play, though he still does it well.

Having a good shot reduces James' assist numbers just like it inflates the numbers of guys like Knight and Claxton--that's not to say that they aren't good passers, but it might be by default. Knight specifically probably makes two times as many passes as James per game, he just doesn't have a lot of guys that can stick open jumpers on the 'Cats.

I don't consider either of those guys elite passers, though, even though Knight typically puts up nice numbers in that category. They are good passers but one could argue that they aren't great playmakers.

When you factor in the amount of scoring James does along with his passing and not turning the ball over, his playmaking skills are greater than those of the players you've mentioned. He just has a different style.

As far as I'm concerned I think James can easily be our point guard going forward. I don't think he is so trigger-happy that he hurts the team or doesn't get the most out of his teammates. In fact if you look at our offense this year and the individual players it would seem that he is able to bring the best out of them. Not to mention the fact he is solid on defense to boot.

I recognize that not everyone is a fan of Mike James, but I think people forget that there is literally only two or three point guards in the entire NBA that combine very efficient scoring with elite playmaking skills. And it goes without saying that they aren't up for grabs.

Mike James isn't perfect, but he is sure as hell good enough.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

shookem said:


> It's give and take, what MJ lacks in some areas he makes up for in others. He's like a poor man's Gilbert Arenas.
> 
> MJ has improved every season that he has been in the NBA, that could very well continue into next year. He looks like a guy who could grow with a team and provide them tons of big shots and leadership in the backcourt.


With MJ still in the system I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to be getting 45-60 points a night between him and Bosh.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

I said this back in December and I'm saying it once again; I still can't believe people are complaining about the offense even though the Raptors have been a top 10 team offensively.


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## cv3bandwagon (Mar 16, 2006)

What hold on, better passers by default? No way Mike James dose not make plays, first and foremost and is certianly not a playmaker. Maybe he can make plays for himself but not for others, when he dose make plays for himself though usually it's a contested jumper out of the flow of the offense. Brevin Knight and Speddy Claxton are excellent playmakers, they know hwo to make plays. Plays that get their teamtes easy buckets.

Mike is a scorer, a great great scorer. But a scorer without a consience and that's a scary thing to have running your offense a la Francis/Marbury. 

When Mike is running the offense he over dribbles on the top of the key, keeps his head down too often not allowing him to see the passing lanes as well as he should. He must realize that the ball must aways be in motion either by him dribbling throught the heart of the defense, not to score necessairly but to break them down and cause havoc or secound just swinging it around the perimter trying to get the defense in motion and hopefuly out of position. When Mike drives and (sometimes) kicks it out way too early befor the defense converges on him defeating the purpose.

A guy like Speddy Claxton or Brevin Knight who can take it to the rack and always inmotion causes the defense fits and get them out of position creating holes in the defense, then allowing them to pick up the read very quickly as both their decesion making is pretty darn good and get the man who's open an easy shot, usually a lay-up. Secound when they take it all the way the defense converges on them and then quickly dishes it off to a jumpshooter who's not only close but open, with Bosh this would make an excellent combo, I mean yet again look at how much David West has benefited from point guard like this. 

We all ready have enough jump shooters, Bosh Charlie, Mo that's enough. We need some guys who can get nasty in the lane and such a guard would only compliment the other jumpshooters on the team instead of just well being another jumpshooter. See Tony Parker and Duncan, now thats a combo we should copy with Bosh/?.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

cv3bandwagon said:


> There are other options, don't be completly blind and ignorant. Brevin Knight could be had, Speddy did not get an extension from New Orleans there not on the same terms money wise, Jamal Tinsly is an expiring contract away from a new team, Bobby Jackson although still not a great distributer but a better decesion maker and defender and at a cheaper price. That's only a few options.


Bobby Jackson?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/


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## cv3bandwagon (Mar 16, 2006)

JuniorNoboa said:


> Bobby Jackson?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/


I'm not looking for nay knock-out here. Just something a little cheaper then Mike, who would do whatever role he might be asked to do, he's no way the best option and really I might still keep Miek over him, maybe maybe not depending on hwo much he really wants . Besides I think Jose Caldeorn might be ready to pick up more of the load next season, following the trend of international players who show promies in their first season adjusting in the off-seaosn and coming back for strong secound seasons.

Dirk:
98-99 DAL 47 20.4 40.5 77.3 20.6 3.5 1.0 0.6 0.6 8.2 
99-00 DAL 82 35.8 46.1 83.0 37.9 6.5 2.5 0.8 0.8 17.5 

Parker:
Year Team GMs MPG FG% FT% 3PT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG 
01-02 SAN 77 29.4 41.9 67.5 32.3 2.6 4.3 1.2 0.1 9.2 
02-03 SAN 82 33.8 46.4 75.5 33.7 2.6 5.3 0.9 0.1 15.5 

Ginobli:
Year Team GMs MPG FG% FT% 3PT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG 
02-03 SAN 69 20.8 43.8 73.7 34.5 2.3 2.0 1.4 0.3 7.6 
04-05 SAN 74 29.6 47.0 80.3 37.6 4.5 3.9 1.6 0.4 16.0 

Noiccioni:
Year Team GMs MPG FG% FT% 3PT% RPG APG SPG BPG PPG 
04-05 CHI 81 23.4 40.1 76.6 25.8 4.8 1.5 0.5 0.4 8.4 
05-06 CHI 82 27.3 46.1 84.3 39.1 6.1 1.4 0.5 0.6 13.0


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

/\/\/\

I think Jose will improve but all those guys where a lot younger than Jose.


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

cv3bandwagon said:


> There are other options, don't be completly blind and ignorant. Brevin Knight could be had, Speddy did not get an extension from New Orleans there not on the same terms money wise, Jamal Tinsly is an expiring contract away from a new team, Bobby Jackson although still not a great distributer but a better decesion maker and defender and at a cheaper price. That's only a few options.


Completely blind and ignorant? You have a terrible attitude. Show a little more respect for your fellow poster.

Charlotte isn't going to dump Knight for nothing. Claxton wants to re-sign with NO and probably will. Tinsley will not come that cheap and B-Jax is not better than James. Oh, you know what else... *ALL* the PGs you've mentioned are injury-prone.


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

cv3bandwagon said:


> I'm not looking for nay knock-out here. Just something a little cheaper then Mike, who would do whatever role he might be asked to do, he's no way the best option and really I might still keep Miek over him, maybe maybe not depending on hwo much he really wants . Besides I think Jose Caldeorn might be ready to pick up more of the load next season, following the trend of international players who show promies in their first season adjusting in the off-seaosn and coming back for strong secound seasons.
> 
> Dirk:
> 98-99 DAL 47 20.4 40.5 77.3 20.6 3.5 1.0 0.6 0.6 8.2
> ...


This is not a trend. That sample does not represent the overall population of international players adjusting to the NBA. For every player who significantly improves after their first year, there's another one who needs more time. Case in point:

Barbosa
03-04 PHO 70 46 21.4 .447 .395 .770 .3 1.4 1.8 2.4 1.33 .10 1.71 2.60 7.9 
04-05 PHO 63 6 17.3 .475 .367 .797 .5 1.6 2.1 2.0 .48 .11 1.38 2.00 7.0

Diaw
03-04 ATL 76 37 25.3 .447 .231 .602 1.5 3.0 4.5 2.4 .78 .49 1.66 2.50 4.5 
04-05 ATL 66 25 18.2 .422 .180 .740 .8 1.8 2.6 2.3 .56 .27 1.32 1.90 4.8

Peja
98-99 SAC 48 1 21.4 .378 .320 .851 .9 2.1 3.0 1.5 .85 .15 1.10 .90 8.4 
99-00 SAC 74 11 23.6 .448 .375 .882 1.0 2.7 3.7 1.4 .70 .09 1.19 1.30 11.9

AK47
01-02 UTA 82 40 26.2 .450 .250 .768 1.8 3.1 4.9 1.1 1.41 1.94 1.32 1.90 10.7 
02-03 UTA 80 11 27.7 .491 .325 .800 1.8 3.4 5.3 1.7 1.48 2.19 1.70 2.30 12.0


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## l2owen (Apr 24, 2006)

cv3bandwagon said:


> I'm not looking for nay knock-out here. Just something a little cheaper then Mike, who would do whatever role he might be asked to do, he's no way the best option and really I might still keep Miek over him, maybe maybe not depending on hwo much he really wants . Besides I think Jose Caldeorn might be ready to pick up more of the load next season, following the trend of international players who show promies in their first season adjusting in the off-seaosn and coming back for strong secound seasons.
> 
> Dirk:
> 98-99 DAL 47 20.4 40.5 77.3 20.6 3.5 1.0 0.6 0.6 8.2
> ...



ok seriously, you are saying that because a player is international then his game is automatically gonna develop like other international players? i dont see the logic , its like comparing apples and oranges. just because a player is black does that mean hes gonna develop the same as other black players? then all white people develop the same? ... what is the correlation between developing as a basketball player and being international? a player is a player, when someone puts in hard work they get results. "international" has nothing to do with it


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

HELL NO I don't want James.. I'd rather just let him go and use the money on someone else, or do a sign and trade. 

I think Jose can man the point, and either he or Roko could be the point guard of the future. I think one of them will be capable.. Jose definetly has some potential, but is still raw as an offensive player. 

So there is no point in signing James to a long term deal to me because I don't think we want him on our team with Chris Bosh and Charlie entering their primes.. because he cannot run the point guard spot on a good team, imo.

If we could only somehow get Shaun Livingston.. as pure of a pure guard as you get, which Colangelo desperately wants.


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## NBAconsultant (Apr 4, 2006)

If there was no intention to sign MJ, then he should have been traded before the deadline. I highly doubt a S&T could be worked out. No incentive for MJ to do it, he can better dictate the team he wants to go to but just signing with them. Bottom line it will be losing a player, who has trade value, for absolutely nothing. So in my mind the biggest mistake was not trading him before the deadline. However, I think he could help this team and the length and salary he is asking for is not unreasonable, what was Rose making…17mil? A PG that score form the outside and penetrate will open up the game for other players. If you have a PG who can’t hit the treys and is no threat to penetrate, the defense will start sagging in, doubling other players and cutting off passing lanes. In today’s NBA, in my opinion, you need a PG who is a threat to score. But we can agree or disagree on MJ’s value to this team, but I think it can be agreed that it is and will be a mistake to let him go with nothing in return.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

NBAconsultant said:


> If there was no intention to sign MJ, then he should have been traded before the deadline. I highly doubt a S&T could be worked out. No incentive for MJ to do it, he can better dictate the team he wants to go to but just signing with them. Bottom line it will be losing a player, who has trade value, for absolutely nothing. So in my mind the biggest mistake was not trading him before the deadline.


Essentially, the deal back then was to not only erase the 'mistake' the Rafer Alston signing was, but to also free up cap space. It just so happens that the Raptors got a 20 ppg scorer on 46.5% shooting which is a surprise to anyone.

Letting James walk this offseason is nothing to moan about, at least not to extent on how Donyell Marshall was let go for nothing.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

NBAconsultant said:


> If there was no intention to sign MJ, then he should have been traded before the deadline. I highly doubt a S&T could be worked out. No incentive for MJ to do it, he can better dictate the team he wants to go to but just signing with them. Bottom line it will be losing a player, who has trade value, for absolutely nothing. So in my mind the biggest mistake was not trading him before the deadline. However, I think he could help this team and the length and salary he is asking for is not unreasonable, what was Rose making…17mil? A PG that score form the outside and penetrate will open up the game for other players. If you have a PG who can’t hit the treys and is no threat to penetrate, the defense will start sagging in, doubling other players and cutting off passing lanes. In today’s NBA, in my opinion, you need a PG who is a threat to score. But we can agree or disagree on MJ’s value to this team, but I think it can be agreed that it is and will be a mistake to let him go with nothing in return.


The incentive for MJ to do a sign and trade is that most of the teams in the league can't offer him the amount of money he wants without such a trade. 

As for trading him before the deadline, there isn't too great a market for unrestricted free agents.


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