# I told ya so..... (Dajuan vs. Jay)



## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

You all know what this is about. Dajuan Wagner vs. Jay Williams. Last year I was all over saying Dajuan would be a better player than Jay in the NBA. I stood my ground, and now when the time comes were did all those Jay lovers go?

It was pathetic, when Jay came out almost every basketball fan said he would become the next great PG, right up there with Marbury, Kidd, Payton, etc. But look at him now! And don't give me that bull that he is playing in the freaking triangle so that is why he is not doing as good. 

Dajuan Wagner is a better pro, and will be a better pro than Jay Williams. Admit it, the Bulls picked the wrong guy! And all you Jay backers were way off, and that includes Dick Vitale who made Williams seem like the most solid prospect since Patrick Ewing...

Sure Jay should be a good pro in the future. But the fact of the matter is, well Dajuan is BETTER! Dajuan has a better mentality, he is more athletic even though in college posters said Jay was stronger, witch is not the case. Dajuan can drive the lane, something I said Jay could not do that well, and Dajuan can just flat out score and has a great feel for it. Jay on the other hands doesn't as much. Also I heard people say Jay would get 10 assits a game, and that Dajuan can't pass. Well by my count they average the same amout of assits, but Dajuan has 10 more points a game. Then here comes the argument that they do not play the same position. Bull, when Jay came out there was all this talk he would play so good he would be in the all star game his first year. And that Crawford would play the PG while Jay played the wing. And Dajuan can play PG if needed, unlike what people said. Again, Jay should be a ok player, but Dajuan is obviously doing better, and remember ladies! Dajuan is *2* years younger that Jay, so there is a ton of room to improve! And judging by his great start, even when he missed more practice time and could not play as much as other rookies in pre-season, I think what he is doing is pretty damn amazing!

I told the Jay backers this a freaking year ago, so admit it Dajuan is a better player!!!


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

*The Messiah*

Now this is going to cause a debate


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Good, I want them to bring it on!

I have the better player on my side.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

While I agree with you and I'm glad he's a Cav. I think those Bulls fan are a bit overly defensive about this whole thing.


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## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

Ozzy why do you always seem to post these types of theads. You did the same thing last month with Kwame Brown. It's fine to support your opinion but you don't have to go about doing it like a 12 year old.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Ummm okay. DaJuan can flat out light it up, and I'm sure Cleveland fans have something to get excited about. Wagner is fun to watch, that's for sure.

Per this whole Jay vs. DaJuan debate... hmmm..... puzzling. I love it how Jay gets compared with any young PG in the league, be it Arenas, Wagner, heck even Crawford his own teammate. But for the sake of discussion, let's look at the stats:

<b>Jay Williams</b>
10.5 ppg / 31.4 min / 39% fg / 5.5apg / 3.8rpg / 1.52spg / .24bpg / 2.81 TOs

<b>DaJuan Wagner</b>
21.2 ppg / 39.0 min / 39% fg / 4.9apg / 1.7rpg / 1.33spg / .22bpg / 3.22 TOs


So... Jay averages <b>more assists, more rebounds, more steals, more blocks, less turnovers</b>, all while playing 7-8 less minutes a night. And they both are shooting <b>39%</b> from the field.

Believe me, I'm not hating on DaJuan. In fact, I campaigned for the Bulls to get him in case we landed the #4 pick (our worst lottery scenario). But Jay is doing just fine with the Bulls, thank you. He is the PG that this team needs.

Peace.




VD


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Hey, I was right! Simple as that, I'm just trying to get other to realize it. I'm not going to argue something for months on a damn internet board and then never bring it up again. It is pay day, and I have not cashed in. I know that sounds a little dumb, but really it is true, I predicted something and this is the time when you see if it comes true or not. And by my count it did come true, and the people that worshiped Jay Williams like a damn god better back up all their big talk..


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## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

Come on Ozzy I think most Jay fans know the Wagner is ahead of him right now, but Jay is still going to be a very good player in this league, and Wagner is going to end up being a very great player.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Ok, Vin Diesel, good points. But I really hate went people take stats on a damn sheet as proof. Jay averages more assits? Well not to be picky but no player on earth can average 4.9 assits in a game. So obviously Wagner averages 5 and Jay averages 5. Also Jay has played 11 more games that Dajuan. Damn, 4.9 and 5.5, those are just freaking numbers. How about you tell me who has more of a impact on the game. And again I compare Dajuan to Jay is because I got in a ton of arguments that Jay was going to be Soooo better than Dajuan in the NBA. And throw out field goal %, and all that damn stuff, this is not fantasy basketball were you cout up who's stats are better and have 8 categories...



> Come on Ozzy I think most Jay fans know the Wagner is ahead of him right now, but Jay is still going to be a very good player in this league, and Wagner is going to end up being a very great player.


 Well yeah sure, but they don't say it. I'm going after the posters that ripped on Dajuan last year and said Jay would be better. I forget who they are but I sure hope they see this thread!


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## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

Well good luck to you but I am not going to sit hear and help you fight an unwinnable war.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

It may be a little early in these guys careers to decide whom is best.

The Bird vs. Magic debates are still going on years after they retired.

Personally, I would like to see both these guys lead teams into the playoffs before I decide. That ain't going to happen this year.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Ok, Vin Diesel, good points. But I really hate went people take stats on a damn sheet as proof. Jay averages more assits? Well not to be picky but no player on earth can average 4.9 assits in a game. So obviously Wagner averages 5 and Jay averages 5. Also Jay has played 11 more games that Dajuan. Damn, 4.9 and 5.5, those are just freaking numbers. How about you tell me who has more of a impact on the game. And again I compare Dajuan to Jay is because I got in a ton of arguments that Jay was going to be Soooo better than Dajuan in the NBA. And throw out field goal %, and all that damn stuff, this is not fantasy basketball were you cout up who's stats are better and have 8 categories...


Ozzy, when we are dealing with such short NBA careers, stats is all we have. In the 9 games DaJuan has played, the Cavs are 2-7. After Jay's first 9 games, the Bulls were 3-6. Both the Cavs and Bulls are pretty bad NBA teams right now. What else is there to go on, other than statistics? Your evaluation of talent? Puh-lease.

I like Jay and DaJuan. I was never involved with your past debates, so you're not gonna drag me into another one. In hindsight, I still pick Jay with the #2 pick this year. Period.




VD


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## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

Yes, it is very early to judge these players fairly, let them develop their games before we decide which is better.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Remember Cavs have not been at full strength all season. I'm not sure how much better they will be with Miles and Mihm especially since they really still need a pg (although Smush is coming along). I think a good point guard will increase Wagners shooting percentage and decrease his turnovers because he will be less inclined to force some things. By the way Wagner is averaging more than twice as many points per game as Williams and his average just keeps going up game after game. I do like Williams however, I just thought he was a little overated coming out of Duke.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> Remember Cavs have not been at full strength all season. I'm not sure how much better they will be with Miles and Mihm especially since they really still need a pg (although Smush is coming along). I think a good point guard will increase Wagners shooting percentage and decrease his turnovers because he will be less inclined to force some things. By the way Wagner is averaging more than twice as many points per game as Williams and his average just keeps going up game after game. I do like Williams however, I just thought he was a little overated coming out of Duke.


Good point. Just curious (I don't see enough Cleveland games)... so is DaJuan's future w/ the team at the 1 or 2? I'm assuming they have him at PG b/c Smush is not ready and Bimbo Coles is well... Bimbo Coles.




VD


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

As far as Bill Cartwright is concerened, the Cavs can keep Wagner and his shot-happy game...

_"He can score, but he takes plenty of shots," Cartwright said of Wagner. "I'm not sure I want our guys to play that way."_

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/south.../pro/081sd8.htm


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

I don't think anybody knows so far they have him playing mostly 2 to take advantage of his scoring ability. Right now they have him playing the 2 most of the time although I'm sure I've seen him Davis and Jones one the floor together which would mean he was the pg.

Whats funny about Wagner however is he is extremely coachable. I bet if the team wanted him to be less offensive oriented that is what he would do. However the thing with the Cavs over the last few years is that they didn't have any real offensive threats. And no matter what you think of Wagner if you watch him play he is definitely an offensive threat. No one on Toronto last night could keep him out of the paint. While I hate to compare him to anyone, he has the same talent that Iverson does in that he can breakdown the defense and even if he misses a shot often it is an easy offensive put back for his team.


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## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

I think the Cavs hope he develops into a PG but right now he is soley playing the 2. He is just doesn't have the experiance to play PG productively right now, it will take a couple years for him to learn it if that is what the Cavs want him to do.




> I don't think anybody knows so far they have him playing mostly 2 to take advantage of his scoring ability. Right now they have him playing the 2 most of the time although I'm sure I've seen him Davis and Jones one the floor together which would mean he was the pg.


Not neccesaly, Jones does play some PF from time to time.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> I think the Cavs hope he develops into a PG but right now he is soley playing the 2. He is just doesn't have the experiance to play PG productively right now, it will take a couple years for him to learn it if that is what the Cavs want him to do.
> 
> 
> ...


Not really this year, so far all of the PF time is taken by Hill and Boozer and Diop (at times). But I guess since I haven't seen every minute of every game it is possible.


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## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> 
> 
> Not really this year, so far all of the PF time is taken by Hill and Boozer and Diop (at times). But I guess since I haven't seen every minute of every game it is possible.


My bad, I knew hed did last year, I haven't had a chance to see the Cavs play yet this year. I don't know, but have they have gone small and played Hill or Boozer at center at all this year for short spurts?


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

Jay- 10.9 shots per game
DaJuan- 17.8 shots per game


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> Jay- 10.9 shots per game
> DaJuan- 17.8 shots per game


That means that Wagner scores 21.2 pts one 17.8 shots/gm and Williams scores 10.5 pts on 10.9 shots/gm


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> 
> 
> That means that Wagner scores 21.2 pts one 17.8 shots/gm and Williams scores 10.5 pts on 10.9 shots/gm


Yeah, and they shoot the same percent, so if Williams was allowed to shoot more and play more minutes, we wouldn't have threads like this.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Of course you have missed my point

Wagner scores 1.18 points per shot attempt and Williams scores .96 points per shot attempt


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> Of course you have missed my point
> 
> Wagner scores 1.18 points per shot attempt and Williams scores .96 points per shot attempt


No, I got your point. You missed my point. They shoot the same percentage, so obviously as you shoot more, you are going to have more points per shot because you are going to have more opportunities to get to line, etc.


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## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

No you get to the line by driving to the basket and beating your defender. If Jay had the freedom to do this more I think their PPS would be about equal. You also will shot a lower percentage the more shots you take.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> No you get to the line by driving to the basket and beating your defender. If Jay had the freedom to do this more I think their PPS would be about equal. You also will shot a lower percentage the more shots you take.


Basically. And with 7 more shots per game, those are more opportunities to get fouled. Explain how you shoot a lower % the more shots you take.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

You should get relatively the same number of free throws per shot as long as you are continuing to take the same types of shots. Therefore a jumpshooter will not get alot more free throws because they took more jumpshots. I don't really know about Williams I've only seen him play a few times so far this season. In fact head to head I thought Wagner was much better the first game and I thought in the second game Williams had a better game.

I agree with Rybonot that his PPS should not change just because he is taking more shots.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> You should get relatively the same number of free throws per shot as long as you are continuing to take the same types of shots. Therefore a jumpshooter will not get alot more free throws because they took more jumpshots. I don't really know about Williams I've only seen him play a few times so far this season. In fact head to head I thought Wagner was much better the first game and I thought in the second game Williams had a better game.


Obviously, in 7 shots you can't conclude if all will be jumpers or if all will be driving to the basket. All you know is that with 7 more shots, there is a higher probability that you will get to the line more.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

You can however extrapolate that if Williams took 7 more shots per game he would score at 17.24 ppg. However I would admit that this is totally non scientific.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> You can however extrapolate that if Williams took 7 more shots per game he would score at 17.24 ppg. However I would admit that this is totally non scientific.


Yes indeed. Add in increased overall FT attempts and he would be scoring around 18-19 PPG. That would mean that we wouldn't have these threads about who is better, because right now it is impossible to tell given their different situations.


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## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

KC, what I meant was that when you are taking more shots your are probably going to end up taking more bad ones too, but I may be wrong.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Nope the point behind PPS is that it already takes into consideration that you will take and make foul shots at the same rate that you have been taking and making them already therefore he would average 17.3 ppg


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> Nope the point behind PPS is that it already takes into consideration that you will take and make foul shots at the same rate that you have been taking and making them already therefore he would average 17.3 ppg


PPS does not factor in points gained from FT attempts.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> PPS does not factor in points gained from FT attempts.


PPS is PPG/SPG

PPG = points from field goals + free throws made/ games played


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Nope, you are still taking free throws into consideration twice.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> Nope, you are still taking free throws into consideration twice.


My bad, you're right.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

Still though, 17 points per game would be enough to get people off of his back.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Wagner is a better pro plain and simple. People need to get over Jay's college career he won't have that kinda success at this level. Wagner's game is much more suited to the man to man defensive style of the NBA. He has a much better mid range game and has alittle quicker 1st step. Jay is averaging less than 1 assist per game more than Wagner and Vin Diesel uses that as if he's dishing out way more assists. Give it up Bulls fans Jay may become a very solid pg but Wagners going to be special. Wagner I'd guess in a couple years easily averages over 25ppg and about 7 assists. Jay won't get close to those numbers. Wagners a much better passer than I thought and a much smarter player also. He has Iversonitis but better shot selection will come as he matures.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Wagner is a better pro plain and simple. People need to get over Jay's college career he won't have that kinda success at this level. Wagner's game is much more suited to the man to man defensive style of the NBA. He has a much better mid range game and has alittle quicker 1st step. Jay is averaging less than 1 assist per game more than Wagner and Vin Diesel uses that as if he's dishing out way more assists. Give it up Bulls fans Jay may become a very solid pg but Wagners going to be special. Wagner I'd guess in a couple years easily averages over 25ppg and about 7 assists. Jay won't get close to those numbers. Wagners a much better passer than I thought and a much smarter player also. He has Iversonitis but better shot selection will come as he matures.


Well, if you say so...I guess Jay should just stop trying since jazzy1 just confirmed that he won't be a great pro.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Good then I will stop having to do the math


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> Good then I will stop having to do the math


Me too, and from the looks of it, that is a good thing.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, if you say so...I guess Jay should just stop trying since jazzy1 just confirmed that he won't be a great pro.


We very funny Don't get mad at me because Krause didn't see the value in taking Wagner like you said Williams fits in more with what the Bulls need still doesn't make Wagner no less the better player than Williams and that was the point of this thread the point was Wags vs Jay and Wagner will be better doesn't mean Jay isn't what the Bulls need.

Bout akin to the Chargers taking Drew Brees and Tomlinson as compared to taking Vick. All three are good players just that Brees and Tomlinson are more what the Chargers needed. Even though Vick maybe the league's MVP this year.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

Why wold Krause be erroneous in taking Williams when you just admitted that he is what the Bulls needed?

And I'm still waiting for someone to prove that Wagner is a better player, but it won't happen because no one can prove anything. All we know is that Wagner scores more points, while taking more shots and playing more minutes. If that makes him better, then so be it.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

There is no proof in opinions. I just think that Dejuan is exactly what the Cavs need a player who can fill it up. I think that we have that.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> Why wold Krause be erroneous in taking Williams when you just admitted that he is what the Bulls needed?
> 
> And I'm still waiting for someone to prove that Wagner is a better player, but it won't happen because no one can prove anything. All we know is that Wagner scores more points, while taking more shots and playing more minutes. If that makes him better, then so be it.


You need to ask yourself sometimes WHY just ask why then you'll get your answer. Why does he score more points ,Why does he play more minutes, why is he allowed to take more shots. 

Now Lucas see's the value of playing Wagner more because he's incredibly effective. Cartwright on the other hand doesn't feel that Williams is always his teams best option maybe he feels Crawford is more effective. Lucas feels that Wagner has an increased ability to score so he encourages him to shoot. Bill figures Williams isn't all that adept at taking shots and finding ways to score so he discourages him taking to many shots. Wagner scores more points because he's better at it than Williams . And gets almost the same amount of assists. Ask yourself why to your own questions and you'll get your answers. If Jay was truly satisfying Cartwright do you think he'd cut his minutes to get Crawford on the floor. Look at this logically take away the defensiveness that you have for the Bulls and you'll get the answers . Or you'll just go on defending the Bulls.


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## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

I'm just glad KC found he was wrong about the PPS, this could have drug all night.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> You need to ask yourself sometimes WHY just ask why then you'll get your answer. Why does he score more points ,Why does he play more minutes, why is he allowed to take more shots.
> ...


If Jay is on Cleveland, he's getting 40 minutes a night rain or shine. Unless you think Bimbo Coles or Smush Parker will be stealing his minutes... Eesh.

Jay has a very apt backup in Jamal Crawford.. and seeing that Cartwright is down on playing them together... there is no choice but to sacrifice some of Jay's minutes for Jamal. In fact, Cartwright often plays a WHOLE second unit to play most of 2nd quarters and late third/early fourth as well. Any Bulls fan will testify to this. BC will make his substitutions EVEN IF Jay and other starters are playing well.

I find this debate to be a trite one.. especially after the fact that most knowledgable Cavs fans here forsee Wags future at the 2. If this is the case, what are we debating anyways? A young future PG with versus a young SG? The one thing DaJuan does really well right now is score, and YES his best position may be the 2 in the future.

I know Cavs fans are elated about DaJuan, and they should be. But no way if the draft were held today (and hindsight is 20/20) that the Bulls take Wagner.



VD


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> You need to ask yourself sometimes WHY just ask why then you'll get your answer. Why does he score more points ,Why does he play more minutes, why is he allowed to take more shots.
> ...


The premise of this argument is shaky at best.

_"He can score, but he takes plenty of shots," Cartwright said of Wagner. "I'm not sure I want our guys to play that way."_

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/south.../pro/081sd8.htm


BC doesn't want players hoisting up a lot of shots. He wants to see ball movement and an equal opportunity offense run via the triangle. The last thing he wants to see is a rookie PG taking 17.8 shots per game. Now you say that Lucas trusts Wagner more, and they may be true, but with both players shooting 39%, there is no reason why either coach should trust one player over the other. You argue that Bill thinks Williams isn't adept at scoring, which is false proven by the quote. When Crawford was out, he scrapped the triangle and let Jay free-lance. Guess what, he got a triple-double and scored 26 points in the process. Why doesn't BC let him continue to do it? Because he wants the team to develop on the basis of an offensive scheme instead of a one-on-one, single-man, "Allen Iverson" offense.


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## Fordy74 (May 22, 2002)

I have been trying to tell this Bulls fans dominated site the same thing since summertime OZZY... Dajuan-and-only, new jersey's finest(jay is from jersey too). Everyone went nuts when Williams got his tripledouble vs. the Nets. But he has had more bad games than good games and Dajuan has had more good games than bad and has played alot less games than Williams.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

No guarantee that Jay would get 40 ppg with the Cavs it would totally have to do with your production. Right now that Cavs need points and Walker is very good at producing them. However, when the players make bad plays Lucas has benched them for significant time as has happened to Wagner, Davis and Boozer at one time or another.


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## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

Who is Walker?


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Oops I meant Wagner


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> The premise of this argument is shaky at best.
> ...



The premise for your argument is even Shakier there are plenty of players around the league who shoot better than Iversons 40% but he's given the green light because of his ability to score very high in spurts. He has more ability same with Wagner compared to Williams. Cartwright has benched some of the young guys because he wants to win and if Williams scoring high and passing could facillitate this than he wouldn't mind. Dont get too caught up on rhetoric its the bottom line he's most interested in. Crawford doesn't play as VIN DIESEL theorized because he's an adept back up. Man please, He takes Jay's minutes because he's flat out more effective. If Williams was doing the job and producing at high volume there wouldn't be any dobt who should have the pg job. But now there is some question if Williams isn't the best player there. 

Stop bringing up Jay's only really good game Wagner has had a handful of good games. Jay has more bball training and better coaching, spent more years in college and is still the lesser player than Wagner based on production. At best I could strongly argue based on numbers that Wagner is better you can't make the argument that Williams has played better you just can't the numbers don't support it.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

I'm not trying to say Williams is the better player. Look, if you are going to dispute actual quotes from the coach himself, then there is no point in wasting my time with this. BC doesn't want him taking a ton of shots. Our best player, Jalen Rose only takes 19 shots per game. Just over 1 more than Wagner. That tells you right there that BC is more interested in a team game. Yes, he will do whatever it takes to win, and the answer isn't to let Jay jack up all the shots he wants. It isn't the answer for Wags and the Cavs either, because last I checked, they were in the celler of the eastern conference.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> If Jay is on Cleveland, he's getting 40 minutes a night rain or shine. Unless you think Bimbo Coles or Smush Parker will be stealing his minutes... Eesh.
> ...



What is the basis for this. Do you seriously believe that the Bulls drafted Williams if they thought Crawford was a good pg. Or do you think Crawford takes Williams minutes just because Cartwright just wants to split the duties. He subs him and gives him more minutes sometimes because he plays better. Some games Jay plays better but if one was play heads above the other then one of them would be catching some serious pine time. You could argue that the triangle is stunting Williams development and that he's not comfortable but to say he's being platooned simple for effect is silly. You don't platoon players that are giving you a high level of production. But because Williams isn't being all that effective he feels sometimes that Crawford gives him the best chance to win. Same with the young big guys. 

Given the chance to redo the draft I'm not so certain it would go the same way. Hell the Bulls don't have a powerhouse sg so having Wagner play there might make more sense. Given the fact that both players assists stats are so close I'm not sure if Wagner wouldn't be more effective for the Bulls than Williams is seeing as he's been the more effective player. Note that Larry brown never had a system built on one player taking a predominant number of shots before Iverson, who's to say that Cartwrright wouldn't have tailored his system to suit a player with that level of scoring ability in Wagner or even Williams if he showed that he could play as well but he hasn't so its a moot point.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> Given the chance to redo the draft I'm not so certain it would go the same way. Hell the Bulls don't have a powerhouse sg so having Wagner play there might make more sense. Given the fact that both players assists stats are so close I'm not sure if Wagner wouldn't be more effective for the Bulls than Williams is seeing as he's been the more effective player. Note that Larry brown never had a system built on one player taking a predominant number of shots before Iverson, who's to say that Cartwrright wouldn't have tailored his system to suit a player with that level of scoring ability in Wagner or even Williams if he showed that he could play as well but he hasn't so its a moot point.


Cartwright along with Krause have determined that the triangle will be run no matter what. If Wagner was with the Bulls, he would be getting 11 shots per game and people would be calling him a bust.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Hey!!!! that was a low blow. But the reason that the Cavs are in the Cellar is more a function that they have played 2/3 of their games without Wagner than that he has shot 17.9 spg. The real issue with the Cavs is their almost complete lack of point guard play. 



> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Cartwright along with Krause have determined that the triangle will be run no matter what. If Wagner was with the Bulls, he would be getting 11 shots per game and people would be calling him a bust.


I don't believe this to be true because Wagner is truly a player that makes things happen. But you are right in that Lucas told him to be more aggressive and he then put up 33 pts. 

It is clear however that Jay Will fans are not going to change their perspective and neither are Wagner fans. So I give up...


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> Hey!!!! that was a low blow. But the reason that the Cavs are in the Cellar is more a function that they have played 2/3 of their games without Wagner than that he has shot 17.9 spg. The real issue with the Cavs is there almost complete lack of point guard play.
> 
> It is clear however that Jay Will fans are not going to change their perspective and neither are Wagner fans. So I give up...


Yeah, and jazzy1 seems to think that if Jay was good enough to take that many shots, BC would let him. That is completely false. BC's quote backs it up. If Wagner shooting that much was the most condusive to winning for the Cavs, they would be better than 2-7 or whatever it is with him in the lineup.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> I'm not trying to say Williams is the better player. Look, if you are going to dispute actual quotes from the coach himself, then there is no point in wasting my time with this. BC doesn't want him taking a ton of shots. Our best player, Jalen Rose only takes 19 shots per game. Just over 1 more than Wagner. That tells you right there that BC is more interested in a team game. Yes, he will do whatever it takes to win, and the answer isn't to let Jay jack up all the shots he wants. It isn't the answer for Wags and the Cavs either, because last I checked, they were in the celler of the eastern conference.


It isn't about jacking up shots its about ability to score WHY again does Cartwright allow Jalen to shoot that much because he's shown the ability to score. If Williams had shown that ability then maybe he'd be allowed to shoot that much. Again the thread is about Jay vs Wagner so yes the point is about who's better. Wagner has shown better ability to this point is all I'm saying and is shown to be the better player. This isn't about who's team is better both teams are terrible and I wouldn't place the blame on either of the players for why. But the Cavs may have had a better record had Wagner played all season instead of partially based on what he's brought to the team. If your claim is that BC doesn't want Williams to score and be productive than I'll backdown because you'd know better than me you're a Bulls fan who follows such things. All I'm saying is Wagner has played better and appears to be the better player, no one can argue Williams is the better player based on what has happened so far. And thats the point of this thread.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> I don't believe this to be true because Wagner is truly a player that makes things happen. But you are right in that Lucas told him to be more aggressive and he then put up 33 pts.


It doesn't matter if you believe it to be true. It is true. We are trying to develop multiple players, and that doesn't happen by letting Jay got crazy.

Like you said, no one is budging, I'm done.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Ok, I'll get back into this, I was gone for awhile obviously.

Ok about Wagner shooting a lot, who gives a damn, seriously, how the hell did you even find those stats. Sure Jay might have less freedom on the Bulls but no way would Jay be scoring 20 a game on the Caves!

When Jay Williams was in college, he was looked on as being the premire PG in the world. They said he could do everything. But last year I pointed out big weaknesses in his game. He doesn't have that great of handle for a PG, he doesn't finish well going to the hoop. He is not a 10 assits type of PG even though people said he was, and he is to outside jumpshot driven. Because basically that is his offense, shoot a jump shot or drive and not finish at the rim. 

Dajuan on the other hand was looked on as being just some, like everyone here says, ball hog. They think he shoots all the time and can't pass, even though he is averaging the same amount of assits as Jay is. People thought Dajuan was not quick enough to player SG/PG, yeah they were right on that one..? 

Yes, Jay was a better college player, but the NBA and college are two very different games. The NBA is more one-on-one driven and is about creating double teams and kicking it out to the open man. So basically it is a haven for scorers that can put the ball in the tin. Dajuan has way more offensive moves that Jay. Dajuan can go inside and out, and is strong enough to do so, and he is a very underrated athlete. Also the college game is more compact, and if any player can pentrate in the college game, that means they should be even better in the pros. That is why when some players come into the league, the actually look faster than when they were in college because they have more room to opperate. And in college, Dajuan was a better penetrator that Jay. And then dumb people said Dajuan could not shoot from deep!?

And since everyone is talking pointless stats. Well people say Jay is a better 3 point shooter right, and Dajuan can't make them? Well Dajuan has a .381 3 point percentage, while Jay only has a .235 percentage...  

Another thing, Dajuan is two years younger, and at this rate he should be making not just the Chicago, but also Denver, Golden State and maybe even Memphis.....


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> It isn't about jacking up shots its about ability to score WHY again does Cartwright allow Jalen to shoot that much because he's shown the ability to score. If Williams had shown that ability then maybe he'd be allowed to shoot that much. Again the thread is about Jay vs Wagner so yes the point is about who's better. Wagner has shown better ability to this point is all I'm saying and is shown to be the better player. This isn't about who's team is better both teams are terrible and I wouldn't place the blame on either of the players for why. But the Cavs may have had a better record had Wagner played all season instead of partially based on what he's brought to the team. If your claim is that BC doesn't want Williams to score and be productive than I'll backdown because you'd know better than me you're a Bulls fan who follows such things. All I'm saying is Wagner has played better and appears to be the better player, no one can argue Williams is the better player based on what has happened so far. And thats the point of this thread.


No the point of this thread was for OZZY to get a pat on the back because he was supposedly right about Wagner being a better player, which is impossible to determine yet. Give them some time. I mean, Wagner has played 9 games! Rose is allowed to shoot more because he isn't the point guard! Williams is supposed to be creating, not shooting. Understand?


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter if you believe it to be true. It is true. We are trying to develop multiple players, and that doesn't happen by letting Jay got crazy.
> ...


Who isn't trying to develop multiple players heck the Cavs are younger than the Bulls.


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## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

I think the Nuggets are going to regret no taking Wagner the most cause their backcourt stinks like poo.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> No the point of this thread was for OZZY to get a pat on the back because he was supposedly right about Wagner being a better player,


"supposedly right, yeah ok? Pat me on the back, nooo, the point of it was to prove I was right in saying Dajuan is the better baller....

Again, he is two, count them, two years younger and already is more advanced. Your telling me Jay would do just as good a Dajuan is if he was on Cleveland:no:


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> 
> 
> Who isn't trying to develop multiple players heck the Cavs are younger than the Bulls.


AHHH!

And that is why Cartwright doesn't want Jay taking a lot of shots like Wagner. He wants everyone on the team to get their chances.

However Lucas decides to run his team, is his business.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> "supposedly right, yeah ok? Pat me on the back, nooo, the point of it was to prove I was right in saying Dajuan is the better baller....
> 
> Again, he is two, count them, two years younger and already is more advanced. Your telling me Jay would do just as good a Dajuan is if he was on Cleveland:no:


Yeah, and my point is that Wagner has played better, but he hasn't proven to be the better player. Geez, talk about a premature declaration.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> And that is why Cartwright doesn't want Jay taking a lot of shots like Wagner. He wants everyone on the team to get their chances.


 That doesn't sound like a winners attitude, it could just be me. If Jay was so damn great, his talent would demand that he shoots more, but that obviously is not the case now is it!


Weren't you the one that said the same thing when I was all over Clarett in football, I think you were.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> That really sounds like loser talk to me, I don't know might just be me. If Jay was so damn great, his talent would demand that he shoots more, but that obviously is not the case now is it!
> 
> 
> Weren't you the one that said the same thing when I was all over Clarett in football, I think you were.


You obviously missed a lot of this thread. Go back and find the quote by Cartwright that explains that he doesn't want his guys to play like Wagner.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Ok, I did read all of the thread and first off. I don't give a damn what freaking Bill Cartwright said! This is about two players talents. Ok, if Jay really was that great at scoring then Cartwright would lossen up and let him go. And I did not blame the Bulls for not picking him. I blamed Denver, Memphis and most of all Golden State for not picking him. Sure Dajuan is not leading the Caves to the playoffs right now. Key word right now. But Jay sure as hell is not doing anything on the Bulls! 

Wagner is younger, and this same age Jay was just coming on to the big time college sceen. But Dajuan is tearing up the NBA much like Iverson his rookie year. The 76ers did not win that year now did they.

It is fine if you don't like players that "shoot a lot". But I find that hard to believe because your obviously a Bulls fan, and don't you remember that guys named Michael that used to play there. He shot quite a lot back in his day, hell even Cartwright was his teammate. Fine if you don't like scorers that shoot a lot. But sorry to say those players that "shoot to much" are the great players in the game.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Ok, I did read all of the thread and first off. I don't give a damn what freaking Bill Cartwright said! This is about two players talents. Ok, if Jay really was that great at scoring then Cartwright would lossen up and let him go. And I did not blame the Bulls for not picking him. I blamed Denver, Memphis and most of all Golden State for not picking him. Sure Dajuan is not leading the Caves to the playoffs right now. Key word right now. But Jay sure as hell is not doing anything on the Bulls!
> 
> Wagner is younger, and this same age Jay was just coming on to the big time college sceen. But Dajuan is tearing up the NBA much like Iverson his rookie year. The 76ers did not win that year now did they.
> ...


Was Michael Jordan a point guard?


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

There is some inconsistency here then, because when the Cavs played the Bulls Jalen jacked up 31 shots making all of 13. In fact Jalen takes 1.2 shots a game more than Wagner.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> There is some inconsistency here then because when the Cavs played the Bulls Jalen jacked up 31 shots making all of 13 in fact Jalen takes almost 2 shots a game more than Wagner.


Jalen is a veteran, not a rookie POINT GUARD.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah, and jazzy1 seems to think that if Jay was good enough to take that many shots, BC would let him. That is completely false. BC's quote backs it up. If Wagner shooting that much was the most condusive to winning for the Cavs, they would be better than 2-7 or whatever it is with him in the lineup.



So you believe than no matter what that Jay has no control over his game or his career and that he's doomed for failure in Chicago because the systems HOLDING A BROTHHA DOWN . That he's thought of as a bust by some because of the coach . You can't obviously believe that. I guess its Wagners fault alone that the Cavs are losing thats bogus and you know it like I said you again have taken this thread and turned it into a referendum on BC and the system. This threads about who's better and to this point its clearly been Wagner based on any angle you want to look at it. If you argued Jay was better you would seem foolish based on whats happened thus far.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

OK, everyone has said their peace. Ozzy hopefully feels vindicated. I guess there is no need to discuss further.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Any other opinions on the issue. The Truth, I know your out there, come'on tell you thoughts.


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## JGKoblenz (Jul 19, 2002)

Hey guys, I just finished to read the thread!
:clap: 
Great discussion and great posters in here. That's why I love this board.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Jalen is a veteran, not a rookie POINT GUARD.


I've seen a bunch of Cavs games and Dajuan isn't expected to be a "point gaurd", instead a SG, and still I've seen him drive and dish like many a pg in the league.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>THE'clip'SHOW</b>!
> 
> 
> I've seen a bunch of Cavs games and Dajuan isn't expected to be a "point gaurd", instead a SG, and still I've seen him drive and dish like many a pg in the league.


I think you missed the point. Jalen is allowed to take more shots than Jay because he is our veteran leader. Jay is a rookie PG.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> I think you missed the point. Jalen is allowed to take more shots than Jay because he is our veteran leader. Jay is a rookie PG.


I did, I thought you were refering to Dajuan and not Jay, my bad.!!

My 2 cents, the triangle sucks, it limits shots therefore magnifing there importance. I haven't looked but I bet the Cavs take more shots per game than the bulls and thats without a good PG. I see Dajuan, Ricky and Z get plenty of looks a night.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Good point, I do think the Cavs put up a ton of shots a game (of course their shooting percentages are horrendous, thus the need for a pg)


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*Ok*

As a huge Cavs fan, I thought I'd stay out of this thread, because I like what I see in Wagner alot, and I haven't been impressed with BC not giving Williams, Chandler and Curry much playing time. I think that is a mistake. The Bulls are going nowhere this year, like the Cavs. The good difference is Lucas is giving his rookies ALOT of room to grow (Wagner, Smush, Carlos in particular). BC/Krause are stifling their young talent. If this is because of the triangle offense, which they don't even run all the time... good. Keep doing it. It hurts your team, which is good for my team.

As for who is better, Wagner or Williams... there is only one right answer: PEOPLE.... IT IS TOO EARLY TO TAKE SUCH A HARD LINE ON THIS ISSUE!!!! Geesh... give BOTH players (and Yao, Gooden, Nene, Dunleavey, Butler, etc., etc.,) time to develop and learn the league! And I'm not talking 2 months, I'm not even talking the first year. Give all young players 3 years before you start comparing and evaluating. We all know that there are a ton of ballers who came out of HS or early out of college that didn't start reaching their potential til their 3rd or 4rth year. I like both players. I'd take either on my team. As a Cavs fan, I like what I see so far in Wagner, AND I like what I see Lucas doing with his youth squad... but as the player comparisons go... give it some time... it is a LONG NBA season, and a lot can happen.


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## JaK (Aug 13, 2002)

I have to agree with Mongol on this one... It's much too early to tell who will be the better professional... However, I do find that JW has been somewhat inconsistent in his play... Personally, I think he's atrocious from the charity stripe (for a PG) and he is definatly strugglin' from beyond the range... However, due to the structure and the dynamics of his team, I don't think JW has the type of players surrounding him to make him better, unlike Dajuan... 

Boozer and Davis have been playin' extremely well which helps Dajuan to do his own thing... The one thing I have been very impressed by Dajuan is his ability to pull up and take the jumper rather than run through the forest with his head cut off... When I see this, this is amazing example for his maturity for the game... Not many guys, as explosive as Dajuan, would be smart enough to take the nice easy pull up...


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

how many people thought VC was better then dirk pre injury? i think its safe to say that dirk has caught up and surpassed air canada even when he's healthy, its too early to judge draftees right now


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Yeah your right, it is to early. But considering Jay is 2 years older than Dajaun, I think Dajuan obviously is ahead of him because he is a better player and has had less D1 playing experience. So that fact alone to me proves he is better. And again, if Jay was really that great at offense, the coach would ask him to shoot more! But that is obviously not the case because he never shoots, and to me that shows that his 3 point ball is not the same as is was in college, and his handle isn't that great because he can't really get into the lain. 

Yeah time will tell, but I think Juanny will come out on top!


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Yeah your right, it is to early. But considering Jay is 2 years older than Dajaun, I think Dajuan obviously is ahead of him because he is a better player and has had less D1 playing experience. So that fact alone to me proves he is better. And again, if Jay was really that great at offense, the coach would ask him to shoot more! But that is obviously not the case because he never shoots, and to me that shows that his 3 point ball is not the same as is was in college, and his handle isn't that great because he can't really get into the lain.
> 
> Yeah time will tell, but I think Juanny will come out on top!


How many times has it been revealed in this thread that BC doesn't want J-Will taking a lot of shots? He wants him setting up his teammates. This is proven with his words, and with the play of Williams. If you watch the games, you seem passing up a lot shots to get an easier shot for his teammate. That is what he is told to do.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> and his handle isn't that great because he can't really get into the lain.


Ask Chauncey Billups if Jay has handles. He is probably still icing down his ankles.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Ok, yeah you might have a point. But name me one great player that did not shoot his first year. When Jay came into the league, everyone was saying what a great shooter he is, and how great of scorer he is. But look at what he is doing, and since everyone here is into numbers, then why is Jay's 3 point % .281 and Juanny has a .381.....


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Ok, yeah you might have a point. But name me one great player that did not shoot his first year. When Jay came into the league, everyone was saying what a great shooter he is, and how great of scorer he is. But look at what he is doing, and since everyone here is into numbers, then why is Jay's 3 point % .281 and Juanny has a .381.....


I think you are putting too much stock into what has happened thus far. Give these guys, at least, a full year before coming to rash conclusions. I agree 100% with what Mongolmike posted earlier.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Ok, yeah you might have a point. But name me one great player that did not shoot his first year. When Jay came into the league, everyone was saying what a great shooter he is, and how great of scorer he is. But look at what he is doing, and since everyone here is into numbers, then why is Jay's 3 point % .281 and Juanny has a .381.....


Ummm.... lemme quote you to answer your own post here. 



> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Ok, Vin Diesel, good points. But I really hate went people take stats on a damn sheet as proof....
> And throw out field goal %, and all that damn stuff, this is not fantasy basketball were you cout up who's stats are better and have 8 categories...


As so many have said here, its way to early to tell anything OZZY. If you're looking for a debate with The Truth on Jay vs. DaJuan, why don't you PM him and get the ball rolling? Jay is going to be a fine player, and yes.. so is DaJuan. Eh.




VD


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Ok Truth, your turn if you want to join in. Plus anyone else.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

I like this debate, although there can be resolution. However I still don't think that the pro Jay lobby comes up with very good arguments except to explain why Jay is not performing as well as they think he can.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> I like this debate, although there can be resolution. However I still don't think that the pro Jay lobby comes up with very good arguments except to explain why Jay is not performing as well as they think he can.


Notice that the "Pro-Jay" posters also don't want to jump to conclusions and declare one better before they have even played a full NBA season.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

You've got a good point there too

Who knew this thread would get this long?

Ozzy, do you feel that you've gotten a big enough pat on the back yet?


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> I think you are putting too much stock into what has happened thus far. Give these guys, at least, a full year before coming to rash conclusions. I agree 100% with what Mongolmike posted earlier.


Everyone needs to lighten up I think we're saying to this POINT not ALLTIME that Wagner is better things can change and they probably will JUST don't make excuses all the time for why a guy doesn't perform face the facts Jay isn't playing all that well I bet if you asked him he'd admit it. Wagner is playing better plain and simple and if he wins the ROY that'll signal that he was the best rookie. Doesn't mean he'll have the best career. Don't have to be so defensive about Williams if he's as good as you believe it'll come out.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> Everyone needs to lighten up I think we're saying to this POINT not ALLTIME that Wagner is better things can change and they probably will JUST don't make excuses all the time for why a guy doesn't perform face the facts Jay isn't playing all that well I bet if you asked him he'd admit it. Wagner is playing better plain and simple and if he wins the ROY that'll signal that he was the best rookie. Doesn't mean he'll have the best career. Don't have to be so defensive about Williams if he's as good as you believe it'll come out.


Look at the first post of this thread. It doesn't seem to me like OZZY is saying that Wagner is better now, but things could change. He thinks that the contest is over, Wagner's better, and he deserves props for "predicting" this phenomenon.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Notice that the "Pro-Jay" posters also don't want to jump to conclusions and declare one better before they have even played a full NBA season.


This is ridiculous because the Pro TMac posters won't acknowledge to this point Kobe's had a better career so you can take any snapshot of time as a comparison no I don't want to start another Kobe/TMac discussion just using that as an example of how things are argued. If Jay was playing better the Pro Jay people wouldn't be saying lets look at the season they would be saying I told ya so . So lets keep some perspective.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> This is ridiculous because the Pro TMac posters won't acknowledge to this point Kobe's had a better career so you can take any snapshot of time as a comparison no I don't want to start another Kobe/TMac discussion just using that as an example of how things are argued. If Jay was playing better the Pro Jay people wouldn't be saying lets look at the season they would be saying I told ya so . So lets keep some perspective.


No, actually I wouldn't. I would say that it is too early. T-Mac and Kobe have had years in the league, neither one is clearly better. Bad example.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> No, actually I wouldn't. I would say that it is too early. T-Mac and Kobe have had years in the league, neither one is clearly better. Bad example.


Did you miss that meeting we had? We all decided Kobe is clearly better.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Look at the first post of this thread. It doesn't seem to me like OZZY is saying that Wagner is better now, but things could change. He thinks that the contest is over, Wagner's better, and he deserves props for "predicting" this phenomenon.


He did come out pretty strong after rereading what he said, so give him props thus far and say that Wagner is playing better can you admit that much . Like I said before at this Point you could make the argument strongly that Wagner is better but you couldn't make the argument that Jay's better based on whats happening now thats just a fact is all I'm saying. 

Ozzy's prognostications appear to be more accurate than the people who said Jay would be so great. So he does have reason to gloat because so far HE'S RIGHT.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BCH</b>!
> 
> 
> Did you miss that meeting we had? We all decided Kobe is clearly better.


Yes, I must have missed it because I don't agree.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> He did come out pretty strong after rereading what he said, so give him props thus far and say that Wagner is playing better can you admit that much . Like I said before at this Point you could make the argument strongly that Wagner is better but you couldn't make the argument that Jay's better based on whats happening now thats just a fact is all I'm saying.
> ...


He would be right if he came out and said that Wagner is playing better _so far_, but he didn't just say that. He came out and said "Wagner is the better pro!" It seems that he forgot to add "so far..." to the end of that sentence.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> No, actually I wouldn't. I would say that it is too early. T-Mac and Kobe have had years in the league, neither one is clearly better. Bad example.


I would recite Kobes overwhemling resume but that solves nothing there isn't a criteria acceptable by all those involved that would agree to it. It would always be quantified with oh he played with Shaq or of he got more minutes or oh he doesn't have this around him. Based on Stats and winning Kobe would have the edge but it doesn't matter because those things are unacceptable when comparing so its just a HUNCH thing I guess . So my point is taken its a good example there's no possible gauge is all I'm saying because the people on the losing end would always have something to say that spins the argument another way similar to the Kobe /TMac conversation so duration of time offers no more perspective thats acceptable to all. 

I don't want to discuss Kobe/ TMac this is about Wagner/Williams just using that as an example that even though they have years in the league and discernable stats to be analyzed it's still relative to who's interppreting the numbers is all I'm saying.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> He would be right if he came out and said that Wagner is playing better _so far_, but he didn't just say that. He came out and said "Wagner is the better pro!" It seems that he forgot to add "so far..." to the end of that sentence.


He doesn't have to so far but to this point he's closer to being right than you are is all I'm saying. Everything seems to fall in his favor. When and if things change you can hammer him about his error then.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> I would recite Kobes overwhemling resume but that solves nothing there isn't a criteria acceptable by all those involved that would agree to it. It would always be quantified with oh he played with Shaq or of he got more minutes or oh he doesn't have this around him. Based on Stats and winning Kobe would have the edge but it doesn't matter because those things are unacceptable when comparing so its just a HUNCH thing I guess . So my point is taken its a good example there's no possible gauge is all I'm saying because the people on the losing end would always have something to say that spins the argument another way similar to the Kobe /TMac conversation so duration of time offers no more perspective thats acceptable to all.
> ...


There isn't a losing or winning side. Neither Kobe or T-Mac is CLEARLY better. Wagner and Williams have not played a full year in the league yet, thus it is way too early to declare one the better pro.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> He doesn't have to so far but to this point he's closer to being right than you are is all I'm saying. Everything seems to fall in his favor. When and if things change you can hammer him about his error then.


How is he closer to being right than me?

He says Wagner is the better pro.
I say it is too early to come to that conclusion.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> There isn't a losing or winning side. Neither Kobe or T-Mac is CLEARLY better. Wagner and Williams have not played a full year in the league yet, thus it is way too early to declare one the better pro.


OKay then Wagner or Williams who's better. 

He choses the guy who's playing better ,you chose the other guy. He's closer to being correct than you are. I think so when it comes to Kobe and TMac also if you chose to not acknowledge it. Thats your choice.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> OKay then Wagner or Williams who's better.
> ...


No, I choose neither guy, because it is too early to decide. How many times do I have to say that?


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> How is he closer to being right than me?
> ...



He says a pit bull bite hurts you say it pinch's he's closer to being correct than you are when analyzed by rational people because they can process the fact that a pit bull bite could actually hurt as opposed to just pinching.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> He says a pit bull bite hurts you say it pinch's he's closer to being correct than you are when analyzed by rational people because they can process the fact that a pit bull bite could actually hurt as opposed to just pinching.


That is a horrible example. Maybe if I said that DaJuan was not playing well, then you could use that, but that example doesn't come close to describing the situation.

I say it is too early to decide, which several people on this thread have agreed with. In no way is OZZY more right by saying that Wagner is a better pro.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> That is a horrible example. Maybe if I said that DaJuan was not playing well, then you could use that, but that example doesn't come close to describing the situation.
> ...


I say that Wagner's better which several people here have agreed with so what does that m,ean nothing. 

Again Wagner vs Williams 

Ozzy says Wagners better ,you say he's not, for the record thats your feeling all this its too early to tell stuff is all about not being able to prove your premise, thats all you're not fooling anybody by taking the discussion another direction. And Ozzy is closer to being correct nothing you've said changes that. Face it you believe all the hype surrounding Williams and is disappointed by his play. Wagner is excelling he's doing everything the Cavs thought he could do when they drafted him. Williams it was thought was going to be one of the league's best pg's and he's clearly not . The Bulls obviously aren't all that please or Bc's not or Crawford wouldn't be getting that much run at his spot. 

If Jay surpasses Wags then we'll deal with it then. But not now.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> I say that Wagner's better which several people here have agreed with so what does that m,ean nothing.
> ...


I don't know why I bother sometimes. I never said that Wagner is not better! I think you need to get that through your head. You know that neither Me or OZZY is wrong and now you are making sweeping indictments and assumptions to try and get your point across.

I'm done checking in on this discussion. I have a different opinion than what you think. Face it, and move on. If you have anything else to say to me, do it in a PM.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

We have said are view points, now The Truth needs to say his when-ever he comes on. He was the main person that was on me for Wagner being worse than Jay.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

Wagner: 1-9 FG, 3 points, 2 turnovers in 32 minutes

That is why these threads are premature.


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## spartanfan2003 (Jul 12, 2002)

WELL SAID KC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

bad game ooooh you proved your point was waiting all day for this huh. Jay has had bad games also. What does that prove one bad performance . He's still better than Jay is, I still stand firm on this contention you still can't say the opposite. You'll just change the criteria thats all. 

As for what you said above You don't feel Wagner is better this is once again similar to what you said in the Tmac's better thread you come out and say I never said TMac was better when in fact you did. You feel Jay is better you just can't prove it . Don't get frustrated thats the only reason you're bringing in Wags bad game to prove your silly point. Its okay that you think Jay's better nothing wrong with that. There's no award to give out to acknowledge who's a better player its all opinion anyway. So stats or anything can be used in the discussion. We cool I enjoy discussing such things with you.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

wagner has performed better in his system than J has in his. right now wagner is "better" because he has had greater impact on the few nba games he has played. his current status and his future potential are COMPLETELY different arguments. of course it's too early to say that that wagner will be a better player (through his career), that's the way the future works. assertions that williams may turn out to be the better player (and he will be a great pg in the nba) are valid but irrelevant to the argument of who is the better player right now.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> bad game ooooh you proved your point was waiting all day for this huh. Jay has had bad games also. What does that prove one bad performance . He's still better than Jay is, I still stand firm on this contention you still can't say the opposite. You'll just change the criteria thats all.
> 
> As for what you said above You don't feel Wagner is better this is once again similar to what you said in the Tmac's better thread you come out and say I never said TMac was better when in fact you did. You feel Jay is better you just can't prove it . Don't get frustrated thats the only reason you're bringing in Wags bad game to prove your silly point. Its okay that you think Jay's better nothing wrong with that. There's no award to give out to acknowledge who's a better player its all opinion anyway. So stats or anything can be used in the discussion. We cool I enjoy discussing such things with you.


:wave:


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> bad game ooooh you proved your point was waiting all day for this huh. Jay has had bad games also. What does that prove one bad performance . He's still better than Jay is, I still stand firm on this contention you still can't say the opposite. You'll just change the criteria thats all.
> 
> As for what you said above You don't feel Wagner is better this is once again similar to what you said in the Tmac's better thread you come out and say I never said TMac was better when in fact you did. You feel Jay is better you just can't prove it . Don't get frustrated thats the only reason you're bringing in Wags bad game to prove your silly point. Its okay that you think Jay's better nothing wrong with that. There's no award to give out to acknowledge who's a better player its all opinion anyway. So stats or anything can be used in the discussion. We cool I enjoy discussing such things with you.


Its just opinion eh?

Jay Williams
31.3 min / 10.5ppg / 5.5apg / 3.7rpg / 1.45spg / .23bpg / 2.68TOs / 38.8%FG

DaJuan Wagner
38.3 min / 19.4ppg / 4.7apg / 1.5rpg / 1.40spg / .20bpg / 3.10TOs / 37.6%FG

Conclusion: Jay gets <b>more assists, more rebounds, more steals, less turnovers, shoots a slightly better percentage </b> in <b>less minutes</b> a night.


I'm not going to say Jay is better or will be better... but I love it how some here are so certain DaJuan is the better player. Hmm.... the Cavs are 2-8 with DaJuan and the Bulls are what... 2-8 in their last games. Two bad NBA teams w/ young PGs. Is DaJuan even a PG? Some Cavs fans don't think so. Seems like Parker/Palacio are getting minutes at PG. So this discussion is basically comparing a young PG on a bad NBA team w/ a shooting guard on another.

D-Miles is back as well, do you think DaJuan will be hoisting up 25 shots a night? Puh-lease. If last night is any indication, DaJuan will have a hard time sustaining his production thus far.

Peace.



VD


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## zhaozhilong (Nov 26, 2002)

Both players' FG% are equally bad. That's normal for rookies?


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

*I have been beckoned...*



> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> We have said are view points, now The Truth needs to say his when-ever he comes on. He was the main person that was on me for Wagner being worse than Jay.



I'm sorry I didn't get to this argument sooner. I just got home for Christmas break on Thursday, and my family gets priority (albeit slight) over this site.

First of all, it is absolutely impossible to compare these to right now. Like many others have said, they are playing in completely different situations. Yes, both players are playing for terrible teams, but Jay plays in a very methodical and restrictive system, whereas Wagner plays in a wideopen offense where he is allowed to do whatever he wants on offense. Wagner also doesn't have a self-annoited superstar on his team that limits his offense like Jay has in Jalen. Jay has publicly stated that he is envious of Wagner's role in the offense, and he wonders what he would do if given the same opportunity.

I'm not going to rehash any of the statistics stated earlier. As far as what I said before this season, I never said Wagner wasn't going to be good. All I said is that he isn't Iverson and never is going to be, and that *I* would prefer to have Williams on my team because my he is more of a distributor, and, when given the opportunity, can make his teammates better. 

Ozzy, I wish you could see the Bulls games. The way they are completely wasting Jay's talent is sickening. This team would be MUCH better this season if they had never made that trade last year, and Cartwright is still horribly mishandling this team's rotation, almost a month and a half into the season. Coach K even said on sportsradio in Chicago and on the national telecast on TNT the other night that Jay isn't being well utilized, and the offense is not suited for him. I GUARANTEE that if Wagner was playing for the Bulls and had to play with Rose, his numbers wouldn't be even close to what they are now.


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## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

*Re: I have been beckoned...*



> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very well stated, I completly agree with your assesment.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: I have been beckoned...*



> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> First of all, it is absolutely impossible to compare these to right now. Like many others have said, they are playing in completely different situations.
> 
> This team would be MUCH better this season if they had never made that trade last year, and Cartwright is still horribly mishandling this team's rotation, almost a month and a half into the season. Coach K even said on sportsradio in Chicago and on the national telecast on TNT the other night that Jay isn't being well utilized, and the offense is not suited for him. I GUARANTEE that if Wagner was playing for the Bulls and had to play with Rose, his numbers wouldn't be even close to what they are now.


This is EXACTLY what I thought when I first noticed this post. Watching the Bulls actually make me want to vomit sometimes. Mr Williams has clamps on his hands, feet, and a couple other appendages all through the game. The Triangle is KILLING him!


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*To those who say you cant tell which is better*

its a cop out plain and simple you can always say who is better ( you may be wrong but you can always say it and you have reasons to support you opinionwhich could make you right)this an opinion thread and some are actually saying they cant form one.

you can form one on these notions 

who would you rather have off of what you've seen thus far ?

who do you think will have a better future?

who plays better defense , passes better, shoots better? 

its sad that people on an opinion board are afraid to voice theirs or are simply copping out to avoid a question because they cant bear to answer it


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## SS_Solid_Snake (Jul 15, 2002)

You should probably read the first post again. It was stated as fact, not opinion...


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

I said at draft time that i didn't necessarily think Jay was gonna be a better player than DaJaun, and that I didn't really think Jay's leadership qualities were necessarily better. They're both gonna be studs- DaJuan's a better shooter, Jay's a better penetrator (not by much) and passer. DaJuan's bigger, Jay's quicker. The difference in stats is way overblown by the fact that DaJuan gets way more looks, but I certainly don't feel that he's "overrated" because of that. When all is said and done, I think Jay will be more of a pure point guard who can score (ala Isaiah, Tim Hardaway), while DaJuan will be a dynamic scorer who can pass (kind of a hybrid of Jason Terry and AI, only with more strength and less quickness)


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

*Just to shut this little piece...*

of nonsense down.



> Ok, yeah you might have a point. But name me one great player that did not shoot his first year.
> 
> --OZZY



So many have been named in this very thread:

Kobe, Tmac, Baron Davis, Andre Miller, Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen (check out his rookie numbers--you'll be surprised), John Stockton.....do I really need to continue?? I sure hope not, cause I can literally do this for about an hour (the above names took less than 30 seconds to come up with)


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: To those who say you cant tell which is better*



> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> its a cop out plain and simple you can always say who is better ( you may be wrong but you can always say it and you have reasons to support you opinionwhich could make you right)this an opinion thread and some are actually saying they cant form one.
> 
> you can form one on these notions
> ...



This is what I've been saying all along. You can say based on what has occured.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> Its just opinion eh?
> ...



I've already hammered thesesweeping stat evaluation. Jay leads in assists by less than 1 , steals by a half of 1, and fg% by alitlle over 1%. Wags is scoring almost TWICE the Points. In other words he's doing just about everything statistically that Jay's doing plus scoring almost twice as much. So save me the old he's a pg and he's a shooting guard jargon, because Wagners doing almost the same things with way more scoring. Face it Wagners. better. 


And to all stop giving out the old system prose. Jay is being restricted because he's not effective at scoring thats why. He doesn't create scoring opportunities as well for himself if he did Cartwright would let him loose. Wagner has shown an ability to score so he does. Williams scored plenty at Duke against college competiton in the pro's against better athletes he can't get it done. Wagner can . its as simple as that. Why would Cartwright restrict Jay when coming out of school one of Jay's main strength's was scoring alot more than his assists. It seems to me that Cartwright would want to play to Jays strength's instead of squelching it and contimue to lose games forcing this supposed scoring juggernaut to run the offense. Obviously he doesn't see Jay's scoring as a strength in his game so he says pass rather waste time taking shots that aren't fit for your game.


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## pharcyde (Jun 22, 2002)

I read the first few posts in this thread and knew I was finished. All I have to say is, OZZY, SHUT UP. No one cares if you think you were right. The fact is that neither one of them have even played a full season, not even a full half of a season. You cannot conclude based on a few games who is better, and even if you could, there's no reason to go around yelling about how right you were. Do you want a cookie or something? 

You think when Einstein proved all that crap he proved he went around to other scientists and mathematicians, waving a sheet of paper in front of their faces chanting "see, I told ya! I told ya! I was right! Just admit it! No need to lie to yourself! I was right! I told ya! I told ya!"? No, he probably didn't. If he did do anything even remotely like that, he did it in a mature manner.


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## pharcyde (Jun 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What evidence do you have of Cartwright's coaching style that would lead you to believe that he would let Jay score if he could? He barely plays the two high schoolers, but I'm pretty sure that they are able to do more than what he's letting them. Wagner, on the other hand, is allowed to do just about whatever he wants. I'm not trying to say Jay is better, because you can't say that right now about either one of them. They play for different coaches on different teams.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Cartwright gives players the opportunity*

is what they do with it that determines if they continue to get it 

now its obvious that he favors players in some cases but there is no reason williams cant do more he is after all 2nd in min. avg. for rookies (behind wagner)

since williams is one of the players he favors over others (crawford for example)

no one denies that wags has benifitted from min. thus far due to injury 

but so has Williams the bulls have only 2 pgs they are willing to play at the moment and when mason jr. gets back and fully acclimated(which probably wont be til the last 20 or 30 games in the season) JC wil likely gt more min. at the 2 and if he plays well in that time may take more min. at the pg spot due to cartwright feeling like he has enough depth there to split the minutes there a little more to masonjr. and crawford

that and the rookie wall which is far more likely to affect williams sooner due to his time on team usa(he got no rest time this summer) and the fact that wagner has already missed time in the pre-season and reg. season

so to me the best williams is likely to play his best this year is the stretch between now and the all star break 

while the best from wags should be actuallystarting around the all star break (generally around the time most rookies shine brightest befoe te rookie wall gets at them)


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> I wish you could see the Bulls games


Actually I did see the Bulls game against the Bucks this weekend. Well first off I thought Jay played pretty damn bad for a player that hyped. He did not handle it that well, he was very strait line and does not seem to have a good feel. He can penetrate but he is to much of a strait line penetrator. He had a breakaway basket and he just went strait at the hoop. His passing ability still is not great, yeah gets assits but no more that Wagner gets. People said Jay could get 10 a game, well I guess that is wrong. And I did not even see him shoot really either. 

Yeah I can see why people say the coach is holding him back. He does just give it to the post and then goes in the corner and wait for a 3 ball. But still his defense is not that great, his leadership is no where to be found. And his competitive fire has gone down some. That is what I don't like about Duke players, if they stay there that long they almost debend on coach K. And when they get into the NBA they don't play as hard because coach K is not on the sidelines. I think he babies his players so much, that they miss him when they get into the league. But yeah Jay has talent. All I'm saying is that to me that "talent" is WAY over-hyped. Come'on people said he would be one of the top 5 PG's in the NBA right away? Yeah, sure... Jay doesn't get freedom to score but do you really think if he was on another team he would get that freedom to score. Maybe it is Jay's lack of a creative offensive game instead of blaming it on the Bulls coach?

Heck I would rather have Crawford at PG, he is bigger, has a better handle, and defends better, and obviously is harder to guard. And were did this Jay Williams great scoring guard go? I remember people saying Crawford would be the PG, and Jay would be the SG. And to me, Wagner is the BETTER scoring guard. When they both came in most people called them small SG's. Well just look at the points and Wagner is the better scoring guard. And if he was on the Bulls, he WOULD be getting more points. Why, well because he is a better offensive player and can create his own shot, unlike Jay. Sure people will say Jay is being held back, well Cartwright is not holding a gun to his head on the court now is he!

Jay needs to be more aggressive, but some of that passion and intense drive obviously came from coach K. Because he really doesn't seem to have it now.

But we will see....


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Trying to guess what is going through a players/coaches head and asserting it as fact is about as ridiculous as walking of the surface of the sun barefooted. It is beyond stupid.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Krakken</b>!
> Trying to guess what is going through a players/coaches head and asserting it as fact is about as ridiculous as walking of the surface of the sun barefooted. It is beyond stupid.


Like having shoes on would be much better? OUCH

I agree though, we really can only go by the actual production.

By the way Wagner has a better shooting percentage than Williams and a much better 3 pt shooting percentage.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> 
> Actually I did see the Bulls game against the Bucks this weekend. Well first off I thought Jay played pretty damn bad for a player that hyped. He did not handle it that well, he was very strait line and does not seem to have a good feel. He can penetrate but he is to much of a strait line penetrator. He had a breakaway basket and he just went strait at the hoop. His passing ability still is not great, yeah gets assits but no more that Wagner gets. People said Jay could get 10 a game, well I guess that is wrong. And I did not even see him shoot really either.
> 
> ...


Maybe we were watching different games. Jay matched up most of the night against Ray Allen and Sam Cassell on a few possessions. Ray shot a tad over 33%. Jay played pretty good D. On offense he went anywhere he wanted to w/ his quickness and handle.

Now you're campaigning for Jamal at PG because 'hes bigger has better handles is harder to guard blah blah blah'? Sheesh. You must have a thing for 2 guards masquerading as PGs eh?

Please don't question Jay's 'passion and intense drive' either. Its pretty clear you're a Jay hater, that much is for sure.


VD


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

KC


> Wagner: 1-9 FG, 3 points, 2 turnovers in 32 minutes


 Funny you say that, because the never next game he scored 29. I don't know about you but that is being consistent in my book. Yeah bad games come along every once and awhile, but Wagner has shown he can come back from them. But Jay on the other hand could have 3-4 bad games in a row, something Juanny has not done yet.




> Maybe we were watching different games. Jay matched up most of the night against Ray Allen and Sam Cassell on a few possessions. Ray shot a tad over 33%. Jay played pretty good D. On offense he went anywhere he wanted to w/ his quickness and handle.


 Well obviously, I hope a PG can guard at SG and not get beat off the dribble, even though Jay did. Every think it was not so much Jay's defensive ability as it is Allen's lack of a post up game? I would not call Jay a great defender, good but not that great.

As for the Jay hatter statement. Well yeah, I don't like Jay Williams. And most probably think that is because he when to Duke. Well your wrong, I never liked his game, I think PG's need to create better than what Jay has shown. He seems very stiff on the court, doesn't have great handle, can't really penetrate. But then I was thinking maybe he can shoot, but hell he can't even do that in the NBA. He is no were near the deep threat he was in college. I just think Dajuan has a better NBA type game, and has a better mentality. Jay seems to get down to much, and is not mentally that tough. Dajuan on the other hand has that cocky swagger to him. He is a gammer, yeah Jay does what the coach says but who cares? Dajuan Wagner is a fine NBA player, and in my book I would take him over Jay any day of the week. Now some of you don't think Dajuan is a good NBA player and that is fine. 

Everyone has molds they put a player in, well I do. If a player fits that mold I like him, if he doesn't I don't like him. And most of the time the player that fits my mold should be a good NBA player as well. And Jay has never fit my mold, and in my mind will never be as good as he was hyped up to be....


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

OZZY,
I think we are very much in agreement on how good DaJuan can become. I see alot of Iverson in the kid, w/o the same quickness. (This being said, Iverson may well be one of the quickest guards ever to lace 'em up). This being said, he may well need a few more things to develop as a more complete combo guard:

1) a good coach (love 'em or hate 'em, Larry Brown is a very good coach, can't really say the say for Lucas however)
2) a solid passing PG who plays D and knows his role (Eric Snow type)
3) bigs that can rebound and run the floor (Boozer shows lots of potential here)

However, we are very much in disagreement on how good Jay will become. I see a bigger, faster Kevin Johnson (KJ). KJ played w/ much the same heart as say..and Isaiah Thomas. I see the same leadership quality and heart in Jay Williams. Dealing w/ a rookie head coach, another semi-established PG looking for starter minutes (Jamal Crawford), the triangle offense, the veteran presence (shots upon shots and Jalen's desire to play PG--- see Indiana) of Jalen Rose, and well.... I'd say Jay has handled his own thus far. I see Jay becoming a complete player and great PG, much like Jason Kidd is now. He may never be as dominant a scorer as DaJuan, but he won't need to be. The Bulls future rests as much on Jay's assists to Eddy and Tyson as his personal scoring stats.





VD


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Ok, agree. But in my view the Bulls would be way more dangerous now and in the future if they had Dajuan. Don't get me wrong I love Dajuan being on Cleveland. But the Bulls would be more dangerous with Dajuan. They could have Crawford or Rose player the PG, Dajuan could do more of the scoring and set up team-mates less. Also Dajuan could guard the PG while Rose or Crawford guards the SG. And another thing, what the hell are the Bulls doing? They are not playing the future of there team! They never play Curry or Chandler! Hell they neither of them even play 20 mins a game! KG had around 38 his 2nd year, and Amare this year has 29 a game. But Curry and Chandler are under 20 freaking mins! I think they should play them more, why are they "trying" to win ball games? I think it would be smart to take a fue more losses and play your future of the team than get a fue more wins. Yeah they could be showing them how to play by bringing in veterans like Marshall etc. But I think they should be playing a lot more. Sure some will say that Jermaine did not play much. Well Jermaine was on a playoff team that was very deep! Last time I checked the Bulls are not a playoff team. 

And I do believe Jay will not be the best player on his own team! Chandler and Curry are the future for the Bulls, not Jay Williams. 

Sorry about that rant, but back to the matchup factor between Jay and Dajuan.

In the future:
PG Crawford
SG Wagner
SF Rose
PF Chandler
C Curry

In the future:
PG Williams
SG Rose
SF Chandler
PF Marshall
C Curry

Now you tell me what would be a harder lineup to guard. To be plan and simple, that is why I like Dajuan over Jay. Dajuan creates matchup problems, Jay doesn't really.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>moTIGS</b>!
> 
> 
> What evidence do you have of Cartwright's coaching style that would lead you to believe that he would let Jay score if he could? He barely plays the two high schoolers, but I'm pretty sure that they are able to do more than what he's letting them. Wagner, on the other hand, is allowed to do just about whatever he wants. I'm not trying to say Jay is better, because you can't say that right now about either one of them. They play for different coaches on different teams.


Ask yourself why wouldn't BC let Jay play the style he wanted if it led to more wins. Obviously Jay feels stifled. BC obviously doesn't feel like he's stifling him. Jay's biggest asset coming into the pro's from college was his scoring ability not his passing ability . I don't think he averaged more than 5 -6 assists the whole time he was in college so why wouldn't BC play to his scoring strength if he believed it existed . Bottom line is Williams is underachieveing right now Big time and Wagner is playing well. You're argument would hold more water if Jay was just a cog on a good team. Both teams are bad so there's no reason for Williams to hold back his game just to appease a coach. If Jay sored 30 and it led to a win do you really think BC would be mad. BC doesn't play the highschoolers because they're ineffective at times. 

Jay just isn't the player that Wagner is . Wagner has more of a feel for the pro game. This maybe due to the fact his dad played in the league and he was more prepared for the pro style game. His dad could offer insight on things that Jay wasn't privy to, not having a dad who played pro ball. Wagner just looks more comfortable and poised out on the floor maybe some of the things he was taught are similar to what Kobe was taught from his dad.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Cartwright gives players the opportunity*



> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> is what they do with it that determines if they continue to get it
> 
> now its obvious that he favors players in some cases but there is no reason williams cant do more he is after all 2nd in min. avg. for rookies (behind wagner)
> ...


Good Points.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> I never liked his game, I think PG's need to create better than what Jay has shown. He seems very stiff on the court, doesn't have great handle, can't really penetrate. But then I was thinking maybe he can shoot, but hell he can't even do that in the NBA. He is no were near the deep threat he was in college.


Have you been watching the same Jay Williams that I have? The one I've been watching has a *great* handle, penetrates easily and appears to be much,much quicker than Wagner. Certainly he has been on a shooting slump, but he's already beginning to come out of it and has been hitting some big shots for the team lately.



> I just think Dajuan has a better NBA type game, and has a better mentality. Jay seems to get down to much, and is not mentally that tough. Dajuan on the other hand has that cocky swagger to him. He is a gammer, yeah Jay does what the coach says but who cares? Dajuan Wagner is a fine NBA player, and in my book I would take him over Jay any day of the week. Now some of you don't think Dajuan is a good NBA player and that is fine.


 Jay's been in shooting slump so far, but i don't really view him as someone w/out a strong mentality. He took and made some big shots in college and has done the same for the Bulls. His ft shooting has been steadily improving as well by the way.

I love Wagner's swagger too, don't get me wrong- I think he's gonna be a premier player in this league. However, I still think the Bulls made the right decision long-term by drafting Williams. Sure, they could play to Wagner's strenghts alot more than most teams because of the fact that they've got two distirbutors who are 6'6 or taller (Rose and Craw). And short-term, yeah, the Bulls really couild have used Wagner's pure scoring. But the Bulls aren't ready to make a serious run at the Finals this year and won't be for some time. By the time they are ready, TC and EC will be the offensive focal points, Rose will be on his way out, and Crawford will probably have moved on. Long-term, they need someone with Jay's complete game: distributing, scoring, leadership, and excellent rebounding for a guard. They would still be on their way to becoming an excellent team had they picked Juanny, but they would be without a true distributor for years to come.
All that being said, I think both of these players are gonna be studs. I love their heart and intelligence. DaJuan, if surrounded by the right players, can easily be the focus of an offense, and should be in Cleveland for years to come (unless they get LeBron)


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

I stand by my original thoughts on who is better and who will be better 

i never really wanted either of them for the bulls(i wanted them to trade the pick for an established young vet type star) but i knew wagner would be better in the long run fo some very simple reasons

wagner built his game around being in the pro's its obvious when you watched him in college and its obvious now that he learned something that williams is only begging to understand

all the great perimeter players excelled not only out by the 3 pts line but around the 15-20 ft area (MJ, kobe , pierce , t-mac AI stockton the list goes on)

they have to be closer to do more damage not only by themselves but also to get more out of their teammates (

they have to be able to take and make that shot in that area no matter what whether they are hot or cold

williams didn't take that shot in college and he is only starting now trying to bring his game into the mid-range area now

wagner showed he could play good man to man defense, he started out indifferent it seemed in college at 1st but by the end of the year he was memphis st. best peimeter defender 

while williams was consistently put on the other teams weakest perimeter threat which to me meant he was either apathetic on defense or very unskilled at it after 3 years and all of his talent 

i saw a night and day improvement from wagner from the begining of the season til the end on both off. and defense

while williams was a great freshman i never could pinpoint past his point of complete acclimation to college ball(during the tail end of his freshaman year) where he was improving i just saw him getting more opportunies to show his talent and thus improve his stats

williams hustles and plays extremely hard and is very fast and quick but i just couldn't say that that i saw him having a chance to be a dominant player but was pretty sure he would be very good eventually

i saw his gereral impact being similar to an andre miller or marbury which i dont believe is worth a 2nd pick at that spot i believe you have to go past a safe pick and try to take someone who has a chance to be a top 5-10 player in the league especially if there is one on the board which i thought was wagner ( and i believed had a small chance of doing so in dunleavy jr. but i would not have bet on it )

i dont see th need for all the defensive behavoir on this thread both sides should be happy with what they have (it could be worse the 3rd true guard chosen is fred jones who was a dumb pick for no other reason than they have a lot of 2 guards on their roster already)


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

*Re: Re: To those who say you cant tell which is better*



> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just went 3-15 for 10 points last night.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

*updated stats*

Yeah I'm bringing this thread back.... and yes its too early to tell. But the fact is, I like BOTH players. I just like Jay a little more  


Jay Williams (team is <b>10-17</b> as a starter)
31.2mpg / <b>39% fg</b> / 10.6ppg / <b>5.9apg</b> / <b>3.6rpg</b> / <b>1.5stl</b> / <b>.22bpg</b> / 2.5TOs

DaJuan Wagner (team is 3-12 as a starter)
37.5mpg / 37% fg / <b>18.4ppg</b> / 3.9apg / 1.6rpg / 1.3stl / .13bpg / 2.5TOs

<b>bold</b> = better statistic





VD


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

people can post stats after one of the 2 has a bad game until they are blue in the face

it wll happen alot they are both rookies 

but its obvious that one appears to have a clear advantage over the other in long term potential

one is 2 years younger than the other and it would appear if thy were at the same age in their development the distance between the 2 would be as wide as the grand canyon

both according to nba.com's stats has of today 

comaprison williams wagner
pts 10.5 18.4
ast 5.8 3.9
reb. 3.5 1.6
st. 1.5 1.3
fg% 38.2 37.1
ft% 54.5 80.5
3pt% 25.3 34.2
to's 2.6 2.5
blocks 0.2 0.1

in the stats that matter for guards(i discount rebounds and blocks because they are not generally put upon a guard to do ad what ever they do accomplish is a bonus on top of their primary duties like the avg. center hitting a 3 pter ) pts assist steals fg% ft% 3pt% and turnovers wagner ejnoys edges in 4 out of 7 of them 
and some of those edges are pretty big (almost 8 points almost 9% in 3pt avg 26% in free throws ) while outside of asists williams stat advantages tend to be minimal

wagner is suppose to out score williams he is after all a shooting guard just as williams is a pg is suppose to garner more assists which he does out# wagner by almost 2 a game

they both does what they are suppose to but wagner fulfills his duties better 

he scores well drives passes well and shoots well(outside of arc and at free throw line) and is essentially a mediocre defender he does a great job for a rookie and a fairly good job for a seasoned vet in your basic 2 guard stats (18.4 pts and 3.9 ast would put you in an good class of 2 guard for instance i believe both of those 3 are better than eddie jones although in most other areas of basketball jones is superior)

willaims runs his offense well which is1st and foremost his primary responsibility but he shoots poorly from the field 3pt range and the ft line and while he is showing signs of being a ballhawk(deflects passes and gets a good amount of steals) he is generally a prety bad defensive player


there is no way you can say wagner does not have the edge at present and doesn't have at least on the surface of a much brighter future based on potential


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> in the stats that matter for guards(i discount rebounds and blocks because they are not generally put upon a guard to do ad what ever they do accomplish is a bonus on top of their primary duties like the avg. center hitting a 3 pter )


Stopped reading right there.

Tell that to Jason Kidd


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

guards that can rebound are a bonus 

but no one is going to play a guard who cant do the things a guard is suppose to do 

its nice kidd can board just like it is nice when francis get his boards (i believe he led the rockets in rebounding last year) 

but if they couldn't run an offense ,defend, shoot or pass neither of them would be playing point guard they would be on the bench or in the nbdl or in working counters in your local wal-mart

because if you can do one of those things really well you can still get time in the nba but a rebounding specialist at the pg position would never be able to to do anything with nba basketball but watch it on tv 

if you cant understand that you should probably stop reading about basketball period because you are wasting your time


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

...........read the next post..........


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Actually I understand perfectly. Your opinions are well thought out and duely noted. However, they are still flawed. You yourself do not get to decide what is more important and what isn't. Those rebounds oftentimes when added up at the end of the game mean the difference between winning and losing, especially in a league of such parity (like the one that exists today). So what if ONe player averages 8 more points or 2 more assists? If its the rebound at the end of the game that wins it for my team, then you can keep both the points and the assists.

It is just plain foolish to discount stats because they aren't "normal for the position".

I'll explain another way:

Hypothetical situation

Shaq's Season stats: 25ppg 12 Rpg 3 APG 3 BPG 2 SPG
Mings Season Stats: 21ppg 11 RPG 9 APG 4 BPG 4 SPG

Who is the better player over the course of the season?

By the logic you used, Shaq would be, since Migs Assists are not "Normally required for the position"



> because if you can do one of those things really well you can still get time in the nba but a rebounding specialist at the pg position would never be able to to do anything with nba basketball but watch it on tv


And I never claimed you have to be a rebounding specialist at guard. Stop going to extremes to bolster your point. I merely said that rebounds are in many cases just as important as points scored and assists. I mean Wagner is scoring more points, but he isn't more efficient at doing it, so the point argument is moot anyway.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Wagner's just better no big deal KC metions Wagners bad games but never Williams bad games. Because they're too frequent .Fact is Wagner's bad games are more note worthy than Williams because he always seems to have bad games. And the games he doesn't play badly in he's just okay. The 2nd pick should be better than just okay every once in a while. Wagner always seems to have good games Williams maybe has had 3 up to this point.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> Wagner's just better no big deal KC metions Wagners bad games but never Williams bad games. Because they're too frequent .Fact is Wagner's bad games are more note worthy than Williams because he always seems to have bad games. And the games he doesn't play badly in he's just okay. The 2nd pick should be better than just okay every once in a while. Wagner always seems to have good games Williams maybe has had 3 up to this point.


No, I mention Wagner because you all have come to the conclusion that he is the better player. I think it is too early to tell and that is why I bring up bad games for Wagner.

Jay Williams is pretty consistent. He always has 4-6 assists basically every night. I'll take that from a rookie PG. 

If your definition of a good game is 20 points on 30% shooting, then I guess Wagner has more good games. Jay has more games with high assists totals, which is what the Bulls need.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Krakken</b>!
> Actually I understand perfectly. Your opinions are well thought out and duely noted. However, they are still flawed. You yourself do not get to decide what is more important and what isn't. Those rebounds oftentimes when added up at the end of the game mean the difference between winning and losing, especially in a league of such parity (like the one that exists today). So what if ONe player averages 8 more points or 2 more assists? If its the rebound at the end of the game that wins it for my team, then you can keep both the points and the assists.
> 
> It is just plain foolish to discount stats because they aren't "normal for the position".
> ...


well to answer you the center comparison passing is important to any low post center because if they cant pass they are less effective a their role as a post up option (and they are both low post centers)

while a point guard who blocks shots or rebounds is useless in itself without the needed pg skills that their team looks for 

and i'm not discounting them becaise they dont matter i'm discounting them because neither is a neded role requirement the team has put on each player 

because the major beef people were having in this comparison was that wagner and williams were asked to do different things in the context of their teams but neither are needed to rebound or block shots and niether are made to as a requirement for pt 

for instance if williams who is a bad free throw shooter had not hit a FT all season his playing time would not exist 

i doubt you could say the same if he hadn't blocked a shot all season 

and i never said YOU said anyone had to be a rebounding specialist( dont make up stuff just to say it or whatever you reasons may be ) 

i said no team would take a great rebounder at point guard who couldn't set up an offense pass and shoot instead of a player who handled traditional pg responsiblities well and couldn't board well because thats not what teams want 

and just to say add it in since you said wagner was not a more efficient scorer wagner has 276 pts on 248 shots while williams has scored 293 pts on 306 shots 

so while wagner is not very efficient williams is basically a liabilty when he shots the ball as he does not even avg a point a shot so there is a noticable difference


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/scoreboard

wagner who? oh yea... the 3-11 for 8 points wagner!


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

That is pathetic what you just did! What you want me to post every time Jay has a bad game, good god. I will remember to post it when Juanny scores 20+ points.....

Damn that is sad.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> 
> 
> Ozzy, when we are dealing with such short NBA careers, stats is all we have. In the 9 games DaJuan has played, the Cavs are 2-7. After Jay's first 9 games, the Bulls were 3-6. Both the Cavs and Bulls are pretty bad NBA teams right now. What else is there to go on, other than statistics? Your evaluation of talent? Puh-lease.
> ...


Neither of them should have been the #2 pick.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Wagner - Player B

PPG 17.3 - 15.4
RPG 1.6 - 3.8
APG 3.8 - 2.6
TO 2.7 - 2.0
SPG 1.24 -1.44
BPG .12 - .37
FG% .363 - .418
FT% .778 - .774
3P% .310 - .366
MPG 36.5 - 35.1

Looks pretty similar, huh. 

Player A scores a few more points and has a little better A to TO ratio.

Player B is more effecient in scoring and is rebounding better and blocks more shots.

Probably each does about the same amount of good for their team.

Who is Player B? Voshon Lenard.

Let's not bronze that Hall of Fame statue of Wagner just yet, ok?


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Hey how about you do that same comparison to Jay Williams.  See how that one looks.....


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Hey how about you do that same comparison to Jay Williams.  See how that one looks.....


We have already done that several times. Jay is on top of everything except scoring and 3 pt. %.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Hey how about you do that same comparison to Jay Williams.  See how that one looks.....


Jay Williams
31.0mpg / <b>40%fgp</b> / 11.1ppg / <b>3.4rpg</b> / <b>5.6apg</b> / <b>1.5stl</b> / <b>.20blk</b> / 2.6TOs

DaJuan Wagner
36.5mpg / 36%fgp / <b>17.3ppg</b> / 1.6rpg / 3.8apg / 1.2stl / .12blk / 2.7TOs




VD


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> We have already done that several times. Jay is on top of everything except scoring and 3 pt. %.


FYI KC the 'gap' in these two is getting smaller. Jay is shooting 28% versus DaJuan's 31% from 3 point land.



VD


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

Also, Wags isn't scoring as much anymore.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Damn you guys look way to much into simple numbers..... Don't treat stats as some kind of god, there is more to playing basketball than the stats on paper. Not just this debate, but everything, don't just use stats to back up stuff.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

I agree with OZZY that there is more to basketball to than stats. Neither of those guys can shoot the ball though. Look at their field goal percentage. Under 40% is terrible. I like wagner better. He has more potential. Because that is all you can go on right now because neither of them can shoot the ball. WAgner will improve faster because he is getting more minutes and is free in his system do whatever he wants.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Damn you guys look way to much into simple numbers..... Don't treat stats as some kind of god, there is more to playing basketball than the stats on paper. Not just this debate, but everything, don't just use stats to back up stuff.


OK, Jay is a far better playmaker. Both can create their own shot, so that is even. Jay crashes the boards well for someone his size, better than Wags. How's that?


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## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

Setting the stats aside, Jay is still a better basketball player than Wagner because the Bulls has more wins than the Cavs. Jay is a better player, it's as simple as that.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> OK, Jay is a far better playmaker. Both can create their own shot, so that is even. Jay crashes the boards well for someone his size, better than Wags. How's that?


Lets be clear Jay is averaging 1.8 more assists and less than 2 rebs. Its not that big a gap so to state them as if this gives him a sizable advantage is petty. An almost 6ppg edge in pts is alot more substantial and if the assists or rebounds were this far apart I'd readily admit it would be an advantage. See you could turn the argument like you Jay supporters and say BC wants Jay to distribute more and Lucas wants Wags to score more so therefore the assists advantage is a by product of the coaching philosophy not neccecarily a skill advantage. See how easy that is to slant the argument its exactly what the Jay supporters did. So too dismiss it would be to dismiss your previous argument and to admit it dilutes the point about Jay's advantage. Arguments like this can't ever be disproved just titlted based on point of view.

Far better playmaker based on less than 2 assists per game thats ridulous. 

Wagners better plain and simple.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

Points are easier to get than assists. That is why the leagues leading scorer is around 30 ppg, but the assists leader is around 10 apg. They are 3 times harder to get. 6 points more is about equivalent to getting 2 more assists.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> Far better playmaker based on less than 2 assists per game thats ridulous.
> 
> Wagners better plain and simple.


Jay has had 17 games of 5+ assists out of 30. *56.7%* of the time, he gets 5 or more assists.

Dajuan has had 5 games of 5+ assists out of 17. *29.4%* of the time, he gets 5 or more assists.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> Points are easier to get than assists. That is why the leagues leading scorer is around 30 ppg, but the assists leader is around 10 apg. They are 3 times harder to get. 6 points more is about equivalent to getting 2 more assists.


Based on who's calculations yours man please.Points are easier to get based on the method in which they are calculated not based on the function of gaining them. You only get one assist for ever basket, you get two and sometimes three points for every basket that may account for the disparity. 6ppg is the difference in AI as a scorer then KG. Saying Jay is a far better playmaker is the equivalent statistically as saying GP is a far better playmaker than Stockton. I wouldn't dare say that even though he does lead the league. Assists stats are as much based on who you're passing to than anything else. If the Bulls are so much better than the Cavs as some have suggested maybe Jay has better players to pass the ball to which accounts for the slight assists advantage, Ozzy's right it isn't strictly about the numbers but you have to use something to analize things.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> 
> 
> Based on who's calculations yours man please.Points are easier to get based on the method in which they are calculated not based on the function of gaining them. You only get one assist for ever basket, you get two and sometimes three points for every basket that may account for the disparity. 6ppg is the difference in AI as a scorer then KG. Saying Jay is a far better playmaker is the equivalent statistically as saying GP is a far better playmaker than Stockton. I wouldn't dare say that even though he does lead the league. Assists stats are as much based on who you're passing to than anything else. If the Bulls are so much better than the Cavs as some have suggested maybe Jay has better players to pass the ball to which accounts for the slight assists advantage, Ozzy's right it isn't strictly about the numbers but you have to use something to analize things.


Thank you. Points are easier to get based on how they calculate them. Glad you see that. Therefore, you can't expect Jay to open up a 6 assists per game lead on Wagner because it is much harder to do than to get 6 more points per game.

You can't say, "Well, Wagner averages 6 more points, Jay should average 6 more assists if they are to be considered equal."

Assists are harder to get, so a 2-3 assists lead is about equivalent to a 6-9 point lead.

I don't know why we are even comparing a PG to a SG anyways.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> Thank you. Points are easier to get based on how they calculate them. Glad you see that. Therefore, you can't expect Jay to open up a 6 assists per game lead on Wagner because it is much harder to do than to get 6 more points per game.
> ...


I don't agree with your calculations about the assists to the 6- to 9 pt thing and won't even debate it because its not going to be settled you can't put a statistical number on such things you just can't I don't care how reasonable you try and make the fuzzy math sound. I will concede your point about pts being easier though. I wouldn't suggest Jay needs to average 6 more assists than Wagner because that would indeed make Jay a far better playmaker. Which he is not its less than 2 assists again not that substantial a margin. He could average 6 more if he truly were elite at gaining assists like GP is to Wagner. 

I contend this point alone, Wagner is the more effective player most of the stats are almost equal except for the scoring , 1.8 assist is not overwhelming spin it anyway you wish its still not overwhelming so the effect he has on the game is more effective. Funny thing is I sense that you're building a case now for Jay being better which I have no problem with but its a departure from what you were saying earlier in that its too early to tell. Jay was thought to be a leading candidate for ROY and he's clearly not and Wagner is closer to that award. Wagner is slumping alittle which seems to be fueling you in making a case for Jay who's had a couple more solid games than Wagner's had recently. But if Jay has some bad games and Wagner some good ones don't go away from making your case for Jay don't fall back on the its too early to tell side. 

All things being considered and the fact that before the draft and afterward it was no doubt for the prognosticators that Jay was the far better player now it doesn't seem like that anymore and in fact some believe Wagner's better, which goes back to the old axiom it's why you play the games.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

Saying it isn't overwhelming means nothing. Points are 3 times harder to get. 1.8 assists more is a lot. Almost the same as getting 6 more points. I have always maintained that it is too early to tell who is better. You think that when I say something good about Jay, I am saying he is better, which is not the case. In any event, I'm done.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

its just common knowledge that assists are FAR more difficult to rack up then points, getting assists rely on your teamates to actually MAKE the buckets. points just require the flick of your OWN wrist

especially when you have a hard-headed coach like BC who cringes everytime you take an _ill-advised_ shot. jay cant go out and take 50 shots without the fear of getting pulled out by BC. wagner has more freedom to do what he wants, and scoring is what he wants to do. and that fact alone is why it _seems_ like wagner is better right now.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

What? What? Dajuan scored 22 tonight against Jason Kidd???!!

How about that, HOW ABOUT THAT!

And by your guys logic I should post when Jay has a bad game.

:laugh:


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> Points are easier to get than assists. That is why the leagues leading scorer is around 30 ppg, but the assists leader is around 10 apg. They are 3 times harder to get. 6 points more is about equivalent to getting 2 more assists.


i dont know about that one 

by your logic someone who avg. 10 assist is worth the same as a30 pts a game scorer and that isn't even close to accurate


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> i dont know about that one
> ...


I think they are just as valuable. Who are you to say that it isn't?


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Isn't this debate getting tiresome to you guys yet?


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> Isn't this debate getting tiresome to you guys yet?


I didn't start it up! Some guy did just because Dajuan has a bad game and only scored like 5 points, but he scored 22 tonight there really isn't much there to argue.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> I think they are just as valuable. Who are you to say that it isn't?


all you have to do is name one player not named magic johnson who avg. 10 assists in a season who anyone in their right mind would trade a 30 pint a game scorer ithat same season for 

i'll cite some examples for you 

would you trade stockton for jordan ?
AI for andre miller?

would you trade the league leader in assists (gary payton) for the league leader in scoring(t-mac)?

no of course not 


because they are not equal in importance and the calibur of player that usually leads the league in scoring is better than the the league leader in assists


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Counter examples*

Would you trade Kidd for AI? How about for Stackhouse?

Would you trade Baron Davis for Jamerson or Ricky Davis?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Kidd is worth alot more than the assists he brings 
but no i probably wouldn't trade iverson for him 

when people try to argue that an assist is worth 3 points (as Kc did earlier) you cant help think how illogical it is 


if you want to name guys who were assist guys and not much else against guys who only brought scoring to the table 

you are going to find you are comparing players like mark jackson to george gervin....dominique wilins to mugsy bogues and bob macadoo to kevin porter and are going to look silly for getting on the wrong side of the comparison 

because the scorers are clearly on a higher level


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> Saying it isn't overwhelming means nothing. Points are 3 times harder to get. 1.8 assists more is a lot. Almost the same as getting 6 more points. I have always maintained that it is too early to tell who is better. You think that when I say something good about Jay, I am saying he is better, which is not the case. In any event, I'm done.



Stop making those 1.8 assists a big deal a big deal is GP's league leading 9.1 assists compared to Wagner's 3.something. And you are building his case funny you wouldn't when he was having no solid games again 22 for Wagner last night and your way off base to suggest a 10 assists guy is as valuable as a 30ppg scorer. 

Is Gary Payton more valuable than TMac I think not ,TMac's an MVP candidate and GP's not, same reason Jkidd didn't get MVP last year some voters found TD's 25ppg and rebounds more valuable than JKidds assists. Those are the facts.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Stats can not prove that Wagner is better than JWill*

OK, I'll let KC defend the 3 to 1 assist to point value ratio.

But, it's not just 1.8 assists, JWill has more rebounds, better A\TO ratio, better shooting %, etc.

If you want to say that as a scout, Wagner is better, that's great. At this point in their careers, the stats can't be used to definetively prove which is the better player.


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*I find it amazing*

how long this thread has endured! This is like Sac vs LaL, or Kobe vs Tmac! Come on people, we can hit 1,000 with this thread!

And since everyone is repeating themselves over and over, I can too.... it is too early to say which player is better, which player is having a better season, which player has a greater or lesser impact on their team, etc., etc. But that is just my opinion:grinning:


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> What? What? Dajuan scored 22 tonight against Jason Kidd???!!
> 
> How about that, HOW ABOUT THAT!
> ...



you started this whole thread when jay was in a slump and wagner was having great games so dont act like we're the ones jumping the gun.

you started the thread saying wagner is and will be better then jay with only a handful of games as 'proof'. if that isnt jumping the gun the i dont know what is.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Stats can not prove that Wagner is better than JWill*



> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> OK, I'll let KC defend the 3 to 1 assist to point value ratio.
> 
> But, it's not just 1.8 assists, JWill has more rebounds, better A\TO ratio, better shooting %, etc.
> ...


Once again he leads Wagner by less than 2 rebs, and better in shooting by what around 3-4 % whats that one bucket or something. Thats a reach using those stats as if thats the big ah ha there's the prove, the difference in those numbers is miniscule compared to the near 6 pppg more he averages. Its the Difference from AI and KG in terms of scoring many people shoot a better % than AI but most people hold AI in higher regard because of the ability he has to score the increased number of creative ways to get buckets. Its an old argument here but a true one. So don't force feed the miniscule stats and look at the overall effectiveness. Again JKidd rebound average is a real difference than Wagner's not Jay Williams to Wagners.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> all you have to do is name one player not named magic johnson who avg. 10 assists in a season who anyone in their right mind would trade a 30 pint a game scorer ithat same season for
> ...



Actually, the difference is that T-Mac gets rebounds and assists very well, too. If I had a choice between a guy who got 10 assists per game and a guy who got 30 points, it would be a close decision. That is my opinion. There were some good counters brought up, live with it and stop the little sarcastic jokes.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Stats can not prove that Wagner is better than JWill*



> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> The difference in those numbers is miniscule compared to the near 6 pppg more he averages.


This seems to be from the "Because-I-said-so" school of logic. If this is what the argument has been reduced to, well....

http://www.nba.com/milk_rookie/power_rankings_021231.html

JWill on top of Wagner.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Is Wagner the best rookie on his team?

http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_rookie_leaders/RookieLeadersEFFQuery.html


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, the difference is that T-Mac gets rebounds and assists very well, too. If I had a choice between a guy who got 10 assists per game and a guy who got 30 points, it would be a close decision. That is my opinion. There were some good counters brought up, live with it and stop the little sarcastic jokes.


hey payton gives you great defense and leadership stockton is a great shooter 

but like i said before i you want to compare guys who bring little more than assist to the table against their scoring counterparts you'll be comparing players like george gervin against mark jackson (one led the league in scoring the other in assists) 

and you'll lose that argument even worse because though you may hate to hear it scoring is more of a premium need in the league than playmaking always has been always will be


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

The thing is, all of your examples are of guys who were more versatile or more athletic, or physically bigger, Of course, you would rather have them. The thing is, 10 assists is a valuable commodity and I think it is a close comparison.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KC</b>!
> The thing is, all of your examples are of guys who were more versatile or more athletic, or physically bigger, Of course, you would rather have them. The thing is, 10 assists is a valuable commodity and I think it is a close comparison.


its not my fault they are bigger vesatlile or more athletic the only guy smaller than mj in 30 years to get a scoring title is AI who is a lot better than the last guy i can think of who brought little more than assist to a team and won an assist title mark jackson 

and that only helps my point it takes more to be a great scorer than a great assist man 

its obvious to everyone but you


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

Ok.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

*The 1st seasons results.*

*Dajuan Wagner*
13 ppg
2 rbg
3 apg

Highpoints
33 points
10 assists












*Jay Williams*
10 ppg
2 rpg
5 apg

Highpoints
26 points
14 rebounds
13 assists
6 steals












Ok neither one had a great year but remember Dajaun was out during the end of the year. And that is a time where young players on losing teams get a lot of playing time. But considering Dajuan is pretty much 2 years younger than Jay I think Dajuan had the better overall season. Jay has better stats in assists and rebounding but Dajuan showed he can score at will in the NBA. And really Jay's highpoints were all against New Jersey that one game.

Not a horrible season by Jay but now that he got benched because of Jamal Crawford and might not even be playing PG for the Bulls next year. I would have to say Jay Williams was obviously over hyped and over ranked...


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

*No opinions....that is what I thought.*


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## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

I can give you an opinion. But usually it's you who doesn't respond to my posts. So I guess you are painted into a corner. 

So lets analyze their respective seasons. Their numbers are virutally interchangable. Wagner is ahead on points per game. Williams is ahead on assists per game. So statistically, those balance out. 

You list best games. Wagner had a few dynamite scoring games. Jay Will had one or two as well. Not as high of course. But we'll get into that in a second. However, on best single game performance, I would have to give it to Jay Will. He had a triple double early in the year. I find it odd that you aren't crowing about how he had a triple double, because when you announced Rodney White's coming out party earlier this year, claiming that you had been bang on when picking him as a future star, you used his triple double as criteria for him going on to be a great player in the future. So, I don't know. I don't think triple doubles mean a lot, especially if you only get one occasionaly, but you'd have to say that Jay Wil had that better individual game.

Wagner was injured at the start and at the end of the season. Tough luck. He showed promise, but even looking at his numbers (which I hadn't done until now, nor will I check to confirm if you are correct, I'm assuming you are though), you can see that when he was healthy he scored a bit, but he wasn't a good passer etc. But then again, he played more of a 2 spot.

So let me explain why Wagner scored more points than Jay Will. He plays for the Cavs. He was one of their primary scoring options. From day 1, Wagner was unopposed in his role on the team. You can't say that for Jay Will. Everytime he made a mistake he had to worry about looking over his shoulder. Also, he had to worry more about distributing the ball. He had to make sure that Curry, Chandler, Rose etc. needed to get the ball. Who did Wags have to pass too? Well, Miles and Davis, but don't forget, Miles played 1 a bit of the year, so he was passing to Wagner.

Essentially, what you have done is compared 2 players who don't play in similar situations. You also overlook that while much was said about Jay Will's struggles, and how he was handling it so poorly, he still had a very good rookie year, when you compare it with those of other all-star point guards in the league. Also, think about all the pressure he had on him. A lot of people forget that Jay was still an early entrant into the league. Because Wags played only one year, he didn't have as much pressure (and he played in Cleveland)...so he had 2 built in excuses. No pressure. Jay had to come through as the "most NBA ready". I'll admit he didn't have the best year, or the one I thought he would had. But seriously, he was in a terrible situation. Put him on Cleveland and you never know what may have happened.

So I'll conclude here. I think you are flat wrong. I can't see how Wagner had a better year. Look at the stats. He had a few better individual games, but overall, Jay Will, even with all the extra stress put up some good numbers. Very good in fact. Jay Will still made the second All Rookie team. Whereas Wagner, injured or not, didn't make either team. If he would have had the year you are claiming, being one of the best rookies, he would have made one of the teams even with limited time. The truth, you are just trying to support a claim you made at the begining of the year, and you can't. Not on this year. This thread is premature.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

JWill also shot better from 2Pts and 3pts.

2pt: 39.9% to 36.9%
3pt: 32.2% to 31.6%

Wagner got to the line more often and shot better there.

But JWill had better steal and block numbers.

Wagner also got a few more minutes per game.

I can't see how anyone could conclude Wagner had a better year.

I guess we will have to check back next year.


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## BEEWILL (Apr 13, 2003)

At the end of the season J-Will was surpases his overall season averages with just 19min per contest.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> You list best games. Wagner had a few dynamite scoring games. Jay Will had one or two as well. Not as high of course. But we'll get into that in a second. However, on best single game performance, I would have to give it to Jay Will. He had a triple double early in the year. I find it odd that you aren't crowing about how he had a triple double, because when you announced Rodney White's coming out party earlier this year, claiming that you had been bang on when picking him as a future star, you used his triple double as criteria for him going on to be a great player in the future. So, I don't know. I don't think triple doubles mean a lot, especially if you only get one occasionaly, but you'd have to say that Jay Wil had that better individual game.


 Ok I made that post about Rodney White because I was glad he had a good game when people thought he could not play. But come'on your comparing Rodney White to Jay Williams, and PG that was supposed to be top 5 in the NBA his first season??? I made the post about Rodney because I was proud of his accomplishment. But again JAY IS OLD! Rodney when to 1 year of college, same with Dajuan, Jay when to three years.... I hope he is more productive in the NBA but he really wasn't. And judging off of the learning curve more players go through you would expect Dajuan to be more productive down the road since he was just as good as Jay but is younger....



> Wagner was injured at the start and at the end of the season. Tough luck. He showed promise, but even looking at his numbers (which I hadn't done until now, nor will I check to confirm if you are correct, I'm assuming you are though), you can see that when he was healthy he scored a bit, but he wasn't a good passer etc. But then again, he played more of a 2 spot.


 Yeah he is not good a passing the ball, but players have strengths to their games and that is not one of Dajuan's strength's right now. But again he is young and he can learn just like Jay did...



> So let me explain why Wagner scored more points than Jay Will. He plays for the Cavs. He was one of their primary scoring options. From day 1, Wagner was unopposed in his role on the team. You can't say that for Jay Will. Everytime he made a mistake he had to worry about looking over his shoulder. Also, he had to worry more about distributing the ball. He had to make sure that Curry, Chandler, Rose etc. needed to get the ball. Who did Wags have to pass too? Well, Miles and Davis, but don't forget, Miles played 1 a bit of the year, so he was passing to Wagner.


 Well he probably passed some to his All Star center down low, and Ricky Davis is not shy from throwing up shots, neither is Shush Parker. And true Miles differed to Dajaun and that is the way it should be. But to say Jay could not score just because he was on the Bulls is inaccurate. Sure Rose wants the ball but none of the other players would rip Jay's head off if he did not get them the ball. And Jay did improve over the year some but REMEMBER how hyped he was coming out of college, he was looked on as being a offensive machine, and clearly that offensive game does not translate to the NBA...





> Essentially, what you have done is compared 2 players who don't play in similar situations. You also overlook that while much was said about Jay Will's struggles, and how he was handling it so poorly, he still had a very good rookie year, when you compare it with those of other all-star point guards in the league. Also, think about all the pressure he had on him. A lot of people forget that Jay was still an early entrant into the league. Because Wags played only one year, he didn't have as much pressure (and he played in Cleveland)...so he had 2 built in excuses. No pressure. Jay had to come through as the "most NBA ready". I'll admit he didn't have the best year, or the one I thought he would had. But seriously, he was in a terrible situation. Put him on Cleveland and you never know what may have happened.


 So Cleveland is the better situation? Heck Rose, Curry and Chandler took pressure off Jay if anything. And no one, I repeat NO ONE should have though they Bull would be the **** this year. They are YOUNG they will obviously not be a playoff team yet Bulls fans started to think that way. And I compare the two because I said before you posted on this board that Dajuan Wagner will be better than Jay Williams in the NBA. And that is why I compare them and that is why I made this post...




> So I'll conclude here. I think you are flat wrong. I can't see how Wagner had a better year. Look at the stats. He had a few better individual games, but overall, Jay Will, even with all the extra stress put up some good numbers. Very good in fact. Jay Will still made the second All Rookie team. Whereas Wagner, injured or not, didn't make either team. If he would have had the year you are claiming, being one of the best rookies, he would have made one of the teams even with limited time. The truth, you are just trying to support a claim you made at the begining of the year, and you can't. Not on this year. This thread is premature


 Yeah it might be premature but Dajuan is TWO years younger! And if they both improve I think Dajuan obviously has more room to improve on his 13 points a game scoring. I bet in the end he could get up to 20 a game easy. He has shown a sick ability to get to the hoop and score the basketball. He can penetarte the lane when ever he wants to. And I believe he did not have a green light all the time, in the begining of the year he did and look at the numbers he put up. But if Cleveland or any other team takes the time to build around him Juanny could be something great. 

Sure I might have made this two early but I have always said I did not like Jay Williams. People always gave a negative reaction to that, but as you can see from his rookie year he is not as good as everyone said he was.

They don't play the same position but I feel Dajaun has just as good of chance as Jay to be a star in this league, if not a better chance. And it seems like I push this thread because I want to get some support for Dajuan because really when is the last time anyone talked about him...

Oh but I guess he can't play, so just go with the college star and the former Dukie Jay Williams.....


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## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Ok I made that post about Rodney White because I was glad he had a good game when people thought he could not play. But come'on your comparing Rodney White to Jay Williams, and PG that was supposed to be top 5 in the NBA his first season??? I made the post about Rodney because I was proud of his accomplishment. But again JAY IS OLD! Rodney when to 1 year of college, same with Dajuan, Jay when to three years.... I hope he is more productive in the NBA but he really wasn't. And judging off of the learning curve more players go through you would expect Dajuan to be more productive down the road since he was just as good as Jay but is younger....
> 
> Yeah he is not good a passing the ball, but players have strengths to their games and that is not one of Dajuan's strength's right now. But again he is young and he can learn just like Jay did...
> ...


That post convinces me of nothing. You essentially repeated points I conceeded to you, and made statements without supporting them. You also made some ridiculous statements. Either way, I hardly care. You are completely closed minded. Any response is a waste of my time to write, and yours to read. Don't take it personally. You just haven't convinced me with the statements you have made in any of your posts in this thread, and I don't really have much more to say either. It's a dead issue. Lets wait three years, and then we can play the "I Told You So Game".


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Krakken</b>!
> Trying to guess what is going through a players/coaches head and asserting it as fact is about as ridiculous as walking of the surface of the sun barefooted. It is beyond stupid.


Oh yeah like walking on the sun with shoes on would be so much smarter!

I definitely wouldn't say that Jay had alot more pressure on him to perform than Wagner. Frankly they were both high draft picks and both of them needed to perform well. Frankly if anything it may have been tougher for Wags coming to a team that was losing and wanting to help.


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## Cam*Ron (Apr 13, 2003)

you all know i love wags so he gets my vote


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Tough call. 

We havn't seen the best of either yet.


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