# Let's say Harden walks...



## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

...how does that affect OKC? 

Obviously he's a huge piece for them. He fits in perfectly with Durant and Westbrook down the stretch because they all give the floor extra space and can score in bunches. We all know what he does off the bench whilst one or both of Durant and Westbrook sit too. 

Can they replace him and still be as good? With whatever cap space you'd be left with. 

And then on the flipside...

If Harden stays, are we looking at a dynasty in the next couple years? I don't think you can deny this team a title. If it doesn't come this year, it'll come eventually. First of many? I don't know. They are so well balanced, and Durant is just 23...

Side-question: where do you rank Harden among active 2s right now?


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## 29380 (Feb 23, 2009)

SG Ranking:
Kobe
Wade
Manu
Harden
Ellis
Eric Gordon
Joe Johnson


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

If Harden walks it's disastrous, because OKC isn't positioned to have significant cap space or any more high picks, and Ibaka isn't good enough to be your third scorer. They'd really need Durant and Westbrook to both approach 30ppg through the playoffs. I can't imagine that Bennett would be that dumb though, because they're perfectly positioned to compete for the next 8-10 years. Harden's probably somewhere in the top 10 at his position, although he may not be top five yet.


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## 29380 (Feb 23, 2009)

Remember when Presti was getting criticized for take Harden instead of Curry?


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

No Manu Ginobili?


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## 29380 (Feb 23, 2009)

BlakeJesus said:


> No Manu Ginobili?


Knew I was forgetting somebody.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Pay* Him. If he won't accept, frame him for something and get him put on probation where he can't leave the state of OK. 

They can't lose that guy, he's the vessel between Durant and Westbrook. Without him ball movement is too much of an issue. And a replacement who does what he does for them is not going to be easy to find.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

I don't think they can afford to pay both Harden and Ibaka. So then the question becomes, who's more important? People really underrate Ibaka's importance to this team.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

They become a very different team. When he's in the game, he allows Westbrook to play SG, which he seems more comfortable with than PG. And he's a terrific closer for them. He defends well and can take over a game (as he's done a few times this season). It's crazy to think that he, Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka are all under the age of 24. My thing is, when you're that good, do you want to come off the bench all the time? At some point, I can see him wanting to be a starter in this league.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

You don't think they'd go into Luxury tax if they won a title?


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

Dre said:


> You don't think they'd go into Luxury tax if they won a title?


I'm not good with NBA cap rules but everything I've read is that it's basically one or the other. Both are going to command $12m at the very least.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Ben said:


> I don't think they can afford to pay both Harden and Ibaka. So then the question becomes, who's more important? People really underrate Ibaka's importance to this team.


I think they can. They don't have a single bad contract on the team and literally don't need to add anyone to the team other than rotating out new low-salary roleplayers as the ones they have age/get paid. You're talking about spending 6-7 years building a contender/moving it halfway across the country and then not spending the last $10ish million a year to win it all. Multiple times. I feel like this is going to turn into one of those sensationalist stories that only becomes a story because it's fun to speculate about.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Trade Perkins for pennies on the dollar to pay these guys if you have to, though I don't see that being necessary.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Ben said:


> I'm not good with NBA cap rules but everything I've read is that it's basically one or the other. Both are going to command $12+ million at the very least.


I assume they have bird rights and will be able to go over the cap to keep both, then it just becomes a luxury tax issue where they'd be paying 5 on the dollar or something wild like that now

I think Harden is more important than Ibaka though. Not that Harden's shot blocking/altering threat and overall defensive presence is important, but I think they could overcome it with Harden.

No Harden and Westbrook is the primary ballhandler down the stretch, having Ibaka doesn't help them overcome becoming a significantly more defendable offensive team.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

Dre said:


> I assume they have bird rights and will be able to go over the cap to keep both, then it just becomes a luxury tax issue where they'd be paying 5 on the dollar or something wild like that now


If that's the case then I guess it's just whether Harden doesn't want to get a bigger payday, and a starters job somewhere else. 



> I think Harden is more important than Ibaka though. Not that Harden's shot blocking/altering threat and overall defensive presence is important, but I think they could overcome it with Harden.
> 
> No Harden and Westbrook is the primary ballhandler down the stretch, having Ibaka doesn't help them overcome becoming a significantly more defendable offensive team.


The reason I see Ibaka is more important is because he's a legit anchor of their defense. It's harder to just replace a big of his quality than a great bench player. Not that a bench player of Harden's quality isn't really, really hard to replace.

I do agree with what you're saying though. Ibaka isn't easily more important. If they make a smart replacement though, I see it easier to get a ballhandling scorer to come off the bench in that system.


If they wanted to save money, they could move Perkins...


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Ben said:


> If that's the case then I guess it's just whether Harden doesn't want to get a bigger payday, and a starters job somewhere else.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Harden isn't really a bench player if he's finishing games and perhaps their second most important player down the stetch


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

Dre said:


> Harden isn't really a bench player if he's finishing games and perhaps their second most important player down the stetch


It's the same conversation we have with Manu. He's not technically a bench player but he's used as one because they like his scoring with the second unit, and then at the end. 

In that team Sefolosha would start over someone like Jamal Crawford but Crawford would still do the same job Harden does, just not at the same level.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Oh and I don't see how he doesn't get big time money, probably so much that you feel like you have to start him if you're paying him that much

What helps them in a roundabout way is Maynor getting injured this year, because they'll be able to re-sign him at a lower rate then if he'd have played this year and someone probably would've tried to steal him with a bigger deal the Thunder couldn't afford with new contracts for Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden.

You re-sign him and he's the same player then Harden can start and Sefolosha can walk because you have that ballhandler back for the second unit.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

Dre said:


> What helps them in a roundabout way is Maynor getting injured this year, because they'll be able to re-sign him at a lower rate then if he'd have played this year and someone probably would've tried to steal him with a bigger deal the Thunder couldn't afford with new contracts for Westbrook, Ibaka and Harden.
> 
> You re-sign him and he's the same player then Harden can start and Sefolosha can walk because you have that ballhandler back for the second unit.


Interesting point.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/2012-nba-free-agents

There's a list of the free agents. If Harden leaves, to be fair there are a few guys you'd push hard for on that list so that you don't miss him *that* much.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

If you win a title or lose in a close series I can't see taking a core piece like that out of the equation, even for 75 cents on the dollar. 

Presti comes from the Spurs...you have to pay to play but you can also retool around a certain core like the Spurs did and not ever really pay a huge payroll.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Dre said:


> If you win a title or lose in a close series I can't see taking a core piece like that out of the equation, even for 75 cents on the dollar.
> 
> Presti comes from the Spurs...you have to pay to play but you can also retool around a certain core like the Spurs did and not ever really pay a huge payroll.


Daequan Cook: 6th man of the year ???

We live in a new NBA where you just can't go over that luxury tax. 

People talk about the Spurs/Celtics windows closing. How about OKC ? Losing Harden changes the make up of a very good squad. And his agent won't allow him to take one cent less than he is worth.Teams like the Hornets, Bucks, and maybe the Pacers could take a shot at him in a year.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

They're all like 24. They don't even have a window in the sill, much less it closing any time soon. What are you talking about

And Daequan can shoot but that's it


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Presti has worked a lot of magic with this team. I'm hoping he can.swing another miracle and keep both guys. All of these guys are friends and their chemistry is awesome. Plus the fan support is unparalleled anywhere else. There is definitley appeal to staying. 

However, if they choose to move on, more power to them. It's their career decision and it's business.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Dre said:


> They're all like 24. They don't even have a window in the sill, much less it closing any time soon. What are you talking about
> 
> And Daequan can shoot but that's it


The window of this starting five is closing. Ibaka, Harden or both would be gone afterwards. If guys like David Lee get what they get, imagine what Ibaka can command on the open market. 

Harden as a starter and second or first option is an all star candidate. 

I don't mean retirement. I mean this particular combo playing together. Its this year or next...and that's it.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

LA68 said:


> The window of this starting five is closing. Ibaka, Harden or both would be gone afterwards. If guys like David Lee get what they get, imagine what Ibaka can command on the open market.


Ibaka's not _that_ good. The guy's absolutely a valuable big man, but let's not start acting like he's playing at and all-star level yet.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

If I'm a GM and I want to win a championship next year the only two shooting guards I take before Harden are Kobe and Wade. Retaining him is a must if we're wanting to talk about a potential dynasty. Ibaka is good but he's not incredible or irreplaceable.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Would be a pretty massive blow if OKC lost him. Not sure how they're gonna manage that cap situation.


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