# MVP so far



## SheriffKilla

To me its gotta be LeBron 
Cleveland started a little slow the first few games and his teammates havent played all that well but he has been amazing and the numbers are there

Dwyane Wade is 2nd in my book because from what I watched so far he is the best player in the NBA his stats are a little lower because of his team and the offense (or lack of) they run

Kobe and Carmelo have put up points have been a little bit too one demensional for me
Chris Paul has amazing numbers but he is out right now

Finally I think a sleeper is Josh Smith he is 3rd behind Lebron and Wade to me personally
Just amazing on both sides of the court and the Hawks have been the best team in the league so far
If they manage to win 60 games(which they are on pace for) he has to be up there
Great defense and this year is actually playing intelligently on offense, better shot selection and movement off the ball has improved his field goal percentage dramatically and he is using his court vision which he always had but was a little more selfish in the past


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## c_dog

It's a bit early for mvp don't you think?

I think brandon jennings deserves an honorable mention this early in the season. The odds are against him that he keeps this up all season and the bucks making the playoffs, but since we're not even a month into the season he's definitely been one of the best players in the NBA so far.

MVP so far for me is Carmelo Anthony. He just seems to be playing on a different level than everyone. He's playing like he's #1 in the nba right now.


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## futuristxen

I'm going with Brandon Jennings and Steve Nash.

I expect though by the end of the year it's going to be down to Kobe, Lebron, and Wade. Kobe would actually be my third choice, just because of how much he's carrying the Lakers with Gasol out, who I think is incredibly important to their team.

Lebron's been really good this year, especially at the end of games, but you have to bring something a little extra special to repeat as MVP...unless you're Steve Nash.

If we're honest with ourselves, this far into the season, the story of the season is Brandon Jennings. I don't know about you guys but I picked them, even thinking Jennings was going to be good, to finish at the bottom of the East. What they've done thus far led by Jennings is incredible. I expect that will slow down though, so I'm going to appreciate it early.


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## Piolo_Pascual

Agree^ Lebron is playing great ball, but going with the recent MVP criteria, he needs to do something extra on the table to repeat. Kobe and Melo are putting up great numbers and their team are battling for the top spot on their respective divisions, Ill give that slight edge on Kobe because he's been carrying that team in Gasol's absence. I like what BJ is doing in Milwaukee, but I feel like its an abberation. He will hit a wall and when Redd comes back, his shots will decline and so will his numbers.


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## Spaceman Spiff

Brandon Jennings. I hope they trade Redd, cause he will hold back Jennings.


I refuse to call him BJ, cause blowjob is the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th thing that comes to mind.


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## Dre




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## Jakain

Lebron James.


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## roux

The Usual suspects, Wade and Nash are at the top of the list


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## Piolo_Pascual

Wade's #'s on 3 major categories are down this year (Fg%, APG & PPG).


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## roux

Piolo_Pascual said:


> Wade's #'s on 3 major categories are down this year (Fg%, APG & PPG).


doesnt matter to me, he's carrying the Heat as usual


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## Piolo_Pascual

I totally agree there, and I hope the Heat keeps that winning mentality there. Just pointing out some interesting facts.


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## Chan Ho Nam

i'll give it to Nash


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## TM

17 & 12 for nash? ali g was right - he _is_ the mp3!!!


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## croco

I don't use three question marks typically, but it's appropriate this time: Steve Nash for MVP??? Puh-leez. 

I thought we have been through that topic several years ago and he is not playing any better than he did when he won it twice in a row. Of course he is playing pretty well right now, but not MVP worthy. While he is also back at the level he performed at three years ago, the major difference is that the Suns are winning at a higher clip. That credit should be spread around because Nash is far from the only reason why the Suns are 10-2. 

He is having an All-Star caliber reason which is very good - but not great - yet somehow he is in the discussion for MVP three weeks into the season. It makes no sense to me.


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## Piolo_Pascual

Yeah, seriously. I dont get the Steve Nash love for MVP here. Dude just had 1 steal in 12 games lol.


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## Dissonance

^Oh, know, 1 stl. Wow, that changes everything. 


Something tells me certain people haven't seen much of the Suns this yr, to say things they are. Nash has played at his MVP type level more a few times this yr. His numbers really are online with what put up then, more assists this yr, couple pts less in one yr, and he's actually carried the Suns at times in short season scoring wise, to go along with 6 games of 12 assists or more. 2 20 assist games. Now, I'm not even saying he should be MVP, because I don't think he is, but at least in the *conversation.* Nothing more. But I'm sure if he scored like we know he could if he wanted to and take over by putting 20 plus, then there wouldn't be a mind block to allow such a thought - even in his MVP yrs, because apparently that's what's important. 

But I expect nothing less from a forum that celebrates guys like AI, and hates on Nash every chance they get.


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## Piolo_Pascual

Organized Chaos said:


> ^Oh, know, 1 stl. Wow, that changes everything.


No it does'nt change anything. But you're going against the heavyweights, every flaw is subjected for critisicm. Nash is not a Most Valuable Player than Lebron (On pace to have a higher W/S % this year than last season), Kobe or Wade who IMO brings a lot more to the table for their team. Nash is an All Star Caliber player, a Superstar but he's not an MVP in my eyes.


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## rocketeer

1/8th of the way through the season, lebron is still mvp.


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## JT

its gotta be LeBreezy


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## Seuss

OC is stating that Nash is in the coversation, probably in the 2nd-tier of MVP candidates. I agree with him, that Nash shouldn't win and probably won't be in much of the conversation. But he definitely is an honorable mention. 

The only thing we can say at this point, is the MVP trophy is going home to a guard/small forward this year. 

I wonder when the next time we'll see a big man win the MVP award. (Dwight is the easy choice for the future)


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## SheriffKilla

a guy noone has mentioned is Durant Im not a huge fan personally but there is no denying his skill and has Oklahoma City looking like a legitimate playoff team not just right now but like they can seriously challenge for the 8th spot even at the end of the season


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## Luke

fjkdsi said:


> a guy noone has mentioned is Durant Im not a huge fan personally but there is no denying his skill and has Oklahoma City looking like a legitimate playoff team not just right now but like they can seriously challenge for the 8th spot even at the end of the season


When was the last time someone whoose team barely qualified for the playoffs won MVP?


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## Piolo_Pascual

Top 6 candiates this year are so good. Durant should feel honored if he gets a single second place vote.


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## Dre

Why does everyone feel like they have to mention everyone having a good year? There's 4 people tops who have a shot at it. Most likely if the Cavs get to 60 Lebron wins again.

If we can all agree this is a superficial award that rarely captures who the best player was why do we have all these MVP at point A, B, C threads?


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## eddymac

Carmelo Anthony


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## SheriffKilla

VanillaPrice said:


> When was the last time someone whoose team barely qualified for the playoffs won MVP?


Im not saying win the MVP but he deserves a mention he is a top 5 candidate (arguably) as of now


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## Luke

fjkdsi said:


> Im not saying win the MVP but he deserves a mention he is a top 5 candidate (arguably) as of now


LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Nash, and 'Melo are all pretty clear cut ahead of him at this point. It's arguable with guys like Jennings or Dwight too. He's really, really, good, but I don't think that he's ready for any serious MVP talk yet.


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## Dre

Matter of fact this will be the thread. I'm stickying this just like last year.


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## SheriffKilla

I wouldnt put Nash ahead of him but I probably have him right outside my top 5 as well


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## SheriffKilla

since this is a sticky now I will try to give an update every week or 2 on top 5 candidates IMO


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## ATLien

If Miami stays on it's current pace, it has to be Wade. Whenever I watch the Heat, I am completely underwhelmed by his supporting cast.


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## gi0rdun

I want to say LeBron but right now, on paper it should be Steve Nash.


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## croco

Dre™ said:


> Why does everyone feel like they have to mention everyone having a good year? There's 4 people tops who have a shot at it. Most likely if the Cavs get to 60 Lebron wins again.
> 
> If we can all agree this is a superficial award that rarely captures who the best player was why do we have all these MVP at point A, B, C threads?


Exactly, you should have a special season to win the MVP award. Anyone who is having a very good season should make the All-Star team, but that doesn't mean that anyone playing at that level should be in the discussion for MVP.


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## SheriffKilla

To me its fun to discuss who has played well so far at point A,B,C etc
and see who the MVP canditates are Im not saying these guys will actually end up winning it or anything
I do agree that the award has become a little superficial because it was given to the wrong guy too many times through the years

anyway here is my top 5 so far
1. LeBron James ... is having another amazing season even if the Cavs might be disappointing depending who you ask
2. Dirk Nowitzki ... last nights performance put him in this spot IMO, Dallas is arguably the best team in the west so far
3. Dwyane Wade ... still the best player in the league based on what have I watched this season but has had a couple subpar showings according to his standards
4. Carmelo Anthony ... really has taken his game to a new level and Denver looks like they will be a threat in the playoffs once again
5. Josh Smith ... already spoke about him in other threads, the best player on the best team(so far) has to be on here

I just couldnt figure Steve Nash on this list and Kobe is too one demensional for me this season
So thats my list I will give an update in a few weeks when it seems like the right time


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## Ninjatune

It's hilarious that Dirk only has 1 mention in 3 pages of this topic, he definitely deserves to be in the conversation.


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## Spaceman Spiff

Jennings
Dirk
Nash
Melo
Lebron

If Bucks win 50+ and at least give it a real fight for a top 4 seed/division title Jennings is MVP hands down unless one of the others above mentioned has 63+ wins.


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## Piolo_Pascual

Ninjatune said:


> It's hilarious that Dirk only has 1 mention in 3 pages of this topic, he definitely deserves to be in the conversation.


Well, Dirk is my MVP pick on the Early Prediction thread and I said Dirk and the Mavs will have a great season (far better than the Spurs, who everyone thought will have the best or second best record in the West) and so far they are proving their believers right.


The Mavs are 9-3 despite injuries to Howard, Marion, Dampier and Thomas
Dirk is putting up 28/9/3/2
Player of the week
Game Winner
29 point 4th quarter
Two 40 point games
5th in PER


So yeah, he's a Top 3 candidate in my book for this week.


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## Piolo_Pascual

Spaceman Spiff said:


> Jennings
> Dirk
> Nash
> Melo
> Lebron
> 
> If Bucks win 50+ and at least give it a real fight for a top 4 seed/division title Jennings is MVP hands down unless one of the others above mentioned has 63+ wins.


Bogut will miss 2-4 weeks. Im willing to bet the Bucks drops to 500 or below it depending when he comes back. Jennings may still produce heavy numbers but yeah, that slightly hurts Milwaukee's chances of winning 50+ games.


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## ChrisRichards

Dwyane Wade

any other answer is debateable unless it's kobe. then you are wrong.


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## Cap

It's going to be Kobe again when the Lakers end up having the best record in the league.


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## Plastic Man

ChrisRichards said:


> Dwyane Wade
> 
> any other answer is debateable unless it's kobe. then you are wrong.


I thought FG% is all that matters to you... The guy is what under 40% already for the season with all the 6-17, 6-18 or 6-19 outings?


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## Ben

LeBron, Dirk, Wade and Melo are my shouts. Can't see Kobe winning it, and unless Bucks get 50+, Jennings isn't winning it.

I'll put my money on LeBron again, since the media love him.


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## SheriffKilla

Update
1. LeBron James... Still the best player in the NBA. Even if the cavs arent always consistent, this guy just dominates out there and actually has respect from the media so he is the favorite for sure
2. Dirk Nowitzki... Dallas is playing really well even though some of their other guys are injured or arent playing to expectations and Dirk is the biggest reason behind that. The whole offense starts and ends with him and he has become a pretty good defender.
3. Kobe Bryant... Lakers look dominant and Kobe is their best and most important player. I also like how this season he is sticking to what he does best, instead of trying to prove to people that he is a team player or that he can shoot 3s or..etc
4. Carmelo Anthony... Melo has been the best scorer in the league and this is the season that he is taking to the next level and trying to become a top 5 player but Denver has suffered some really tough losses. Also the Nuggets seem to be a capable w/o Melo with Billups, Smith, Nene filling the scoring load, unlike the Cavs, Lakers and Mavs who are pretty lost w/o their stars.
5. Dwight Howard... He is no go to guy and his minutes are down but Orlando is playing really well and he is easily their most important player. I predict a Magic/Lakers rematch.

HM: Steve Nash(35 years old and still defying expectations), Tim Duncan(All of a sudden the Spurs are on a 5 game winning streak and Duncan has the 2 best PER in the NBA), Kevin Durant(At 21 years old he is taking a team of youngsters and put them in the playoff hunt)

Cant wait to see Chris Paul back and once Wade breaks out of the little bit of a slump that he is on they should be in the race as well
Also Greg Oden has been Portlands best player when he is on the floor but unfortunetaly because of Nate (I love Steve Blake) McMillan and foul trouble he only plays like 25 minutes a game


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## Seuss

I don't get your rankings at all.


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## 77AJ

My top 7 so far ...

1.) Steve Nash - The Phoenix Suns have the best record in the NBA at 14-3. Steve Nash is the best PG in the NBA, and is proving it every night on the hardwood. Nash stats are amazing, 16.4 PTS 12.1 AST 90 percent free throw shooting, 53 percent form the field, and shooting 44 percent from three.

Runners up so far in order.

2.) Kobe Bryant
3.) Carmelo Anthony
4.) Dirk Nowitzki
5.) Brandon Jennings
6.) LeBron James
7.) Dwight Howard


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## Seuss

To me it's 

1) LeBron
2) Kobe
3) Nash
4) Dirk
5) Melo


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## Piolo_Pascual

Well, its safe to say this award is for either Kobe or Lebron's to lose. I dont see any forseeable drop from here on out with their productions and both LA and Cleveland are expected to battle for the best record in the league as the season goes on.



If Kobe maintains his amazing efficiency (49% FG) along with 27-28ish points and 2 steals per contest, it would be VERY hard not to give it to him again unless Cleveland ends with a better record.


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## Cap

^ Yeah, like I said earlier, LeBron may be the better player this season but he's not winning it over Bryant because the Lakers are likely to come away with a minimum of 5 more wins and probably closer to 10 in all likelihood. So he'll be the "real" MVP while Bryant actually gets the award. What's remarkable (and funny) is that the voters actually end up picking the right players for MVP (with the very notable exception of Nash), but they almost always get the actual season wrong. They got 00 and 09 right with Shaq and LeBron, and 04 with KG, but pretty much every season after that has been the right player in the wrong season.


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## Unique

Brett Farve.


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## Luke

Cap said:


> ^ Yeah, like I said earlier, LeBron may be the better player this season but he's not winning it over Bryant because the Lakers are likely to come away with a minimum of 5 more wins and probably closer to 10 in all likelihood. So he'll be the "real" MVP while Bryant actually gets the award. What's remarkable (and funny) is that the voters actually end up picking the right players for MVP (with the very notable exception of Nash), but they almost always get the actual season wrong. They got 00 and 09 right with Shaq and LeBron, and 04 with KG, but pretty much every season after that has been the right player in the wrong season.


What about Duncan's years?


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## HB

Hmmm so the team with the best record in the leauge has no MVP candidate? Thats weird.


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## Dre

I hope Kobe wins because it would suck to see only one on his resume whereas most other legends have 2-3.


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## Cap

VanillaPrice said:


> What about Duncan's years?


Duncan could have gotten it practically any year, but I thought Shaq was close enough in 02 and 03. 00, 04, and 09 were pretty clear cut as I said, statistically and otherwise. Not so much with 02 and 03 when Duncan won (but he should definitely have MVPs so I have no problem with it).


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## Pioneer10

It would be weird for Lebron to not win MVP if his finishes in top 5 scoring and assists (he's 4th in scoring and 6th in assists right now). He's had 3 straight games with 10+ assists and with Hickson/Shaq those numbers have a good chance of continuing. I know guys like Nate Archibald led the league and scoring and assists but when was the last time that happened


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## Pinball

HB said:


> Hmmm so the team with the best record in the leauge has no MVP candidate? Thats weird.


Which team would that be?


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## Pinball

Dre™ said:


> I hope Kobe wins because it would suck to see only one on his resume whereas most other legends have 2-3.


Kobe's been one of the top 3 players in the league for nearly a decade but no one was ever going to give him an MVP when he had Shaq on his team. When he was regarded as the best player in the game during a 3 year stretch when Shaq and Duncan declined, his team was barely sneaking into the playoffs. Now, Lebron has emerged and while Kobe is still one of the top two players in the league he can't overcome Lebron's eye-popping numbers or the fact that the Cavs are always in contention for the best record in the East. I think he's destined to win just 1 MVP.


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## Hyperion

So far this year we have five or six legit contenders for the MVP award. This is easily one of the best years of the decade for NBA basketball


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## afobisme

if the cavs win 53+ games, lebron's gonna win it again i think.


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## Piolo_Pascual

Pinball said:


> Now, Lebron has emerged and while Kobe is still one of the top two players in the league he can't overcome Lebron's eye-popping numbers or the fact that the Cavs are always in contention for the best record in the East. I think he's destined to win just 1 MVP.


Eye popping numbers does help which is why Kobe's case is stronger than ever. His PER is higher than his MVP season, and the Lakers are on pace to have a better season than last year, you put two and two together and you have a recipe for another MVP award. People also have to accede the fact that the media has taken a new stance on Kobe. Winning another championship has changed that. No longer is he the guy who can't win without Shaq, now he's in line along with the rest of other legendary players who has proven they can get the job done in June. I think that pay's huge dividends when the ballot comes out.


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## Hyperion

Piolo_Pascual said:


> Eye popping numbers does help which is why Kobe's case is stronger than ever. His PER is higher than his MVP season, and the Lakers are on pace to have a better season than last year, you put two and two together and you have a recipe for another MVP award. People also have to accede the fact that the media has taken a new stance on Kobe. Winning another championship has changed that. No longer is he the guy who can't win without Shaq, now he's in line along with the rest of other legendary players who has proven they can get the job done in June. I think that pay's huge dividends when the ballot comes out.


And him being on a team with 3 other All Stars hurts his case.


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## JerryWest

It's pretty much down to LeBron or Kobe.

If the Lakers win 5 more games than the Cavs, it's 50/50. If the Lakers somehow manages to win to 8 or more games than the Cavs, I think it'll end up going to Kobe. If Cavs are within 5 games of the Lakers, it'll probably go to LeBron.

As for everyone else, I think Melo will finish 3rd in voting. Nash and Paul round out the top 5 for votes.


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## HB

Pinball said:


> Which team would that be?


At the point of writing that, the Lakers hadn't played. Wont get into the whole soft sched thing, but I'd rather give the MVP to the guy with the inferior supporting cast.


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## Piolo_Pascual

Hyperion said:


> And him being on a team with 3 other All Stars hurts his case.


You mean 2 All Stars? Did'nt really hurt Steve Nash when he won it. The way contending teams are constrcuted the past few years, they should not penalize any legitimate MVP candidate for having All Star caliber role players.


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## Hyperion

Piolo_Pascual said:


> You mean 2 All Stars? Did'nt really hurt Steve Nash when he won it. The way contending teams are constrcuted the past few years, they should not penalize any legitimate MVP candidate for having All Star caliber role players.


Well, if Kobe is responsible for 60% of the made shots, then sure he should get it. If he can get injured and the lakers look like a bunch of retarded kids humping a doorknob, then yes he should get it. The fact of the matter is that you replace Kobe with Brown and the lakers are still winning 60 games this year.


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## Piolo_Pascual

Lol, dude why use hypotheticals? Stick with facts for a minute.


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## Hyperion

Piolo_Pascual said:


> Lol, dude why use hypotheticals? Stick with facts for a minute.


As you are living in hypotheticals. Nash had 2 All Stars that couldn't playmake to save their lives. Everyone knows that. If you were to take them off the team, would they win a comparable number of games. Shannon Brown is on the Lakers and it's not that far out to say that Kobe goes out with an injury for the year and Brown takes over.


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## Piolo_Pascual

Hyperion said:


> Well, if Kobe is responsible for 60% of the made shots, then sure he should get it. If he can get injured and the lakers look like a bunch of retarded kids humping a doorknob, then yes he should get it. *The fact of the matter is that you replace Kobe with Brown and the lakers are still winning 60 games this year*.





Hyperion said:


> . If you were to take them off the team, would they win a comparable number of games. *Shannon Brown is on the Lakers and it's not that far out to say that Kobe goes out with an injury for the year and Brown takes over*.


Ok, for a while there when you typed "Brown" on your 1st post, I was thinking that was a typo meant to be "Bron", but the second post confirmed my fears all along.



You really think, Shannon Brown replacing Kobe would still result a 60 win season? Thanks for a good laugh man, lol.


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## Hyperion

Piolo_Pascual said:


> Ok, for a while there when you typed "Brown" on your 1st post, I was thinking that was a typo meant to be "Bron", but the second post confirmed my fears all along.
> 
> 
> 
> You really think, Shannon Brown replacing Kobe would still result a 60 win season? Thanks for a good laugh man, lol.


I just think Gasol, Fisher, Bynum, and Artest are good enough to carry them. Let's not forget about Luke Walton. The dude is a beast.


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## Benedict_Boozer

KennethTo said:


> It's pretty much down to LeBron or Kobe.
> 
> If the Lakers win 5 more games than the Cavs, it's 50/50. If the Lakers somehow manages to win to 8 or more games than the Cavs, I think it'll end up going to Kobe. If Cavs are within 5 games of the Lakers, it'll probably go to LeBron.
> 
> As for everyone else, I think Melo will finish 3rd in voting. Nash and Paul round out the top 5 for votes.


Agreed. I think the head-to-head match-ups this year between CLE/LA and Kobe/Lebron will be big this year also. Voters remember stuff like that.


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## kzero

Benedict_Boozer said:


> Agreed. I think the head-to-head match-ups this year between CLE/LA and Kobe/Lebron will be big this year also. Voters remember stuff like that.


I don't think the voters remembered that last year. Another thing they should take into account is record against the top teams. It's awesome if you can help your team beat the Nets or Thunder four times a year, but what about Orlando, San Antonio and Boston? :|


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## SheriffKilla

Gasol has to be in the running 
He is putting up the numbers of his career the Lakers seem to run the offense through him as much as Kobe and they havent lost with him on the court
Except for last 5 minutes of close games I honestly think Gasol is their best player ,DAMN it was hard to type that but the way he has played so far (7 or 8 games?) its true


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## The Immortal CJ

fjkdsi said:


> Gasol has to be in the running
> He is putting up the numbers of his career the Lakers seem to run the offense through him as much as Kobe and they havent lost with him on the court
> Except for last 5 minutes of close games I honestly think Gasol is their best player ,DAMN it was hard to type that but the way he has played so far (7 or 8 games?) its true


Yeah it's to bad he won't it because the MVP has to be a "superstar" and the biased media tapeworms don't think he is.


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## JT

I'd give it to Kobe. I mean the guy is doing whatever he wants out there.


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## Tragedy

The Immortal CJ said:


> Yeah it's to bad he won't it because the MVP has to be a "superstar" and the biased media tapeworms don't think he is.


 
Because as well has he's played, he's still not THE guy on the team.


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## HB

Hmm funny how you all happen to be Lakers/Kobe fans? When pretty much everyone outside LA knows that Kobe plays on the most talented squad in the league.


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## PauloCatarino

fjkdsi said:


> Gasol has to be in the running
> He is putting up the numbers of his career the Lakers seem to run the offense through him as much as Kobe and they havent lost with him on the court
> Except for last 5 minutes of close games I honestly think Gasol is their best player ,DAMN it was hard to type that but the way he has played so far (7 or 8 games?) its true


Although it's true Gasol has been playing superb ball, i don't think a case can be made for him.
For one, he bennefits greatly from Kobe being there (how many doubles does he face?). And secondly, eventhough he is a great offensive player, his defense is somewhat suspect.
Kobe is the real MVP of that team.


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## Tragedy

HB said:


> Hmm funny how you all happen to be Lakers/Kobe fans? When pretty much everyone outside LA knows that Kobe plays on the most talented squad in the league.


And for years it's been what? The best player on the best team. Now that Kobe is exactly that, everyone wants to change it


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## HB

What years?


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## PauloCatarino

HB said:


> What years?


Maybe the years Steve freaking Nash won two MVP awards?


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## Cap

PauloCatarino said:


> Maybe the years Steve freaking Nash won two MVP awards?


Haha, this.


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## ChosenFEW

roux2dope said:


> doesnt matter to me, he's carrying the Heat as usual


of course he is... who else is going to do it.... super cool beas?


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## Drewbs

fjkdsi said:


> Gasol has to be in the running
> He is putting up the numbers of his career the Lakers seem to run the offense through him as much as Kobe and they havent lost with him on the court
> Except for last 5 minutes of close games I honestly think Gasol is their best player ,DAMN it was hard to type that but the way he has played so far (7 or 8 games?) its true


Gasol is the exact same player that he was with the Grizzlies. He's always been a skilled post scorer, efficient scorer, and a guy who can be bothersome defensively with his length. No one in their right mind would've called Gasol an MVP candidate on the Grizzlies, he was considered a borderline all star, and guy who couldn't lead a team because of his 0-12 playoff record. No one would've argued that he was better than Kobe 4 years ago, yet he is now? When was the last time a team has ever consistently sent doubles at Gasol? Gasol gets to play one on one with whatever poor soul has to guard him in the post every time down the floor as long as Kobe is out there. Kobe gets him the ball at his spots, on the screen roll, in fact Kobe Bryant may very well be the best thing that has happened to Gasol's career. Playing with Kobe brought out the best of Gasol's game and essentially saved his career from becoming irrelevant (though that really has more with Kobe's starpower and LA being a media focal point).


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## futuristxen

Gasol was very underrated for the Grizzlies. He took some mediocre teams to the playoffs there. And he's also played well for Spain, if that matters.

He's always been one of the best big men in the game.

His brother is good too.


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## SheriffKilla

Update
1. Kobe Bryant.. had an off night with his finger but the Lakers look dominant for the most part
2. LeBron James ... has the best numbers, and the Cavs are looking good again
3. Dirk Nowitzki ... has been huge for the Mavericks, whove had some injuries and disappointing performances from other players
4. Dwight Howard ... Orlando looks like the team with the best chance to challenge Lakers and Boston and he is their best player
5. Carmelo Anthony ... best season of career so far and his numbers are terrific but it seems that the Nuggets arent as depended on him as the teams are on the 4 guys ahead of him(plus/minus supports this as well)

Im still not sold on Nash, and I would probably put Durant as 6th right now
Paul and Duncan are climbing the list, and Wade should also be right there soon


----------



## Ben

Dirk is playing out of his skin right now, I wouldn't be surprised to see him keep it up and be well up there in contention.


----------



## John

It is clear to Lebron James that his game does have an neagtive impact when Shaq is in the game. While we know Shaq is bough to defend Howard in playoffs but do the Cavs forgot about how Shaq will hurt Jame's game in playoff time. 

I have seen James shooting a lot of 2 dribbles and a jumper and he is doing it decently but that shot is what seperate Kobe from him as Kobe does have this shot consistently so he doesnt really need as much space as James to operates. 

James is still in his prime but you can see James is trying to change his approach to the game.


----------



## John

FX™ said:


> Dirk is playing out of his skin right now, I wouldn't be surprised to see him keep it up and be well up there in contention.


Can he get some rebounds first?


----------



## Ben

John said:


> Can he get some rebounds first?


He's averaging 8.3 a game. His team-mates Erick Dampier, Shawn Marion and Drew Gooden are averaging 9.7, 6.7 and 6.7 rebounds, respectively. Why does he need to get more rebounds?


----------



## SheriffKilla

Anti MVPs
1. Rafer Alston... Has turned into a shoot first point guard with no shot and no speed
2. Sasha Pavlovic... a spot up shooter with no shot
3. Julian Wright... Cant play PF, cant play SF, cant shoot, cant dribble, this guy is terrible, has gotten no better AT ALL since his sophmore season in college


----------



## Kidd

FX™ said:


> He's averaging 8.3 a game. His team-mates Erick Dampier, Shawn Marion and Drew Gooden are averaging 9.7, 6.7 and 6.7 rebounds, respectively. Why does he need to get more rebounds?


Because he says so, duh.


----------



## Hyperion

fjkdsi said:


> Update
> 1. Kobe Bryant.. had an off night with his finger but the Lakers look dominant for the most part
> 2. LeBron James ... has the best numbers, and the Cavs are looking good again
> 3. Dirk Nowitzki ... has been huge for the Mavericks, whove had some injuries and disappointing performances from other players
> 4. Dwight Howard ... Orlando looks like the team with the best chance to challenge Lakers and Boston and he is their best player
> 5. Carmelo Anthony ... best season of career so far and his numbers are terrific but it seems that the Nuggets arent as depended on him as the teams are on the 4 guys ahead of him(plus/minus supports this as well)
> 
> Im still not sold on Nash, and I would probably put Durant as 6th right now
> Paul and Duncan are climbing the list, and Wade should also be right there soon


This is the problem now this year. There are eight to ten legitimate MVP candidates that, if their teams go on a solid run, they could easily end up with the award


----------



## Plastic Man

fjkdsi said:


> Update
> 1. Kobe Bryant.. had an off night with his finger but the Lakers look dominant for the most part
> 2. LeBron James ... has the best numbers, and the Cavs are looking good again
> 3. Dirk Nowitzki ... has been huge for the Mavericks, whove had some injuries and disappointing performances from other players
> 4. Dwight Howard ... Orlando looks like the team with the best chance to challenge Lakers and Boston and he is their best player
> 5. Carmelo Anthony ... best season of career so far and his numbers are terrific but it seems that the Nuggets arent as depended on him as the teams are on the 4 guys ahead of him(plus/minus supports this as well)
> 
> Im still not sold on Nash, and I would probably put Durant as 6th right now
> Paul and Duncan are climbing the list, and Wade should also be right there soon


Good list. I don't think Paul and Wade will be joining the top 5 any time soon. Their team's respective records are going to hurt them. The same probably goes for Duncan, considering the Spurs current struggles. I do think Nash has to be somewhere there though, simply because of the Suns record, although it would be embarrassing if he got a third MVP.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

It has to be Kobe right now. He has been dominant for a team that is just rolling.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

I would also like to throw in Kevin Durant. The Thunder weren't supposed to win more than 30 games according to some people and they're on pace to win almost 50. Durant is averaging 28/7 and is having almost as good of a season as Carmelo, without any of the attention. This doesn't mean Durant should win it, but he should be mentioned.


----------



## Pioneer10

Sir Patchwork said:


> I would also like to throw in Kevin Durant. The Thunder weren't supposed to win more than 30 games according to some people and they're on pace to win almost 50. Durant is averaging 28/7 and is having almost as good of a season as Carmelo, without any of the attention. This doesn't mean Durant should win it, but he should be mentioned.


Didn't realize that after Melo's incredibly hot start he's flattened a bit. So Durant is not as far back statiscally of Melo as I thought (still Melo has a better PER, TS%, etc so clearly Melo is having a better year.) 
Still I do wonder how strength of schedule will play here. According to Sagarin, the Thunder have played the 8th hardest schedule while Denver and LA have played the weakest schedules. This could mean that Kobe's and Melo's candidacy as take a hit as the year progresses while guys like Durant and Nash (phoenix has played the 3rd hardest) will get a boost as they start playing weaker teams. Dallas, Miami, and Cleveland are closer to the middle so we're probably seeing what we get from guys like Dirk, Wade, and Lebron


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Durant is getting better as the year goes. He actually started slow. He didn't really find his stroke until a few weeks into the season and he has steadily been getting hotter and also getting to the line more.


----------



## rocketeer

Sir Patchwork said:


> It has to be Kobe right now. He has been dominant for a team that is just rolling.


i'd still say that if the award wants any legitimacy, it has to be lebron's at this stage.


----------



## SheriffKilla

fjkdsi said:


> Update
> 1. Kobe Bryant.. had an off night with his finger but the Lakers look dominant for the most part
> 2. LeBron James ... has the best numbers, and the Cavs are looking good again
> 3. Dirk Nowitzki ... has been huge for the Mavericks, whove had some injuries and disappointing performances from other players
> 4. Dwight Howard ... Orlando looks like the team with the best chance to challenge Lakers and Boston and he is their best player
> 5. Carmelo Anthony ... best season of career so far and his numbers are terrific but it seems that the Nuggets arent as depended on him as the teams are on the 4 guys ahead of him(plus/minus supports this as well)
> 
> Im still not sold on Nash, and I would probably put Durant as 6th right now
> Paul and Duncan are climbing the list, and Wade should also be right there soon


I was thinking on doing an update but thinking about it, it has pretty much stayed the same, with LeBron/Kobe still 1 or 2 depending how you look at it.


----------



## Idunkonyou

Kobe.


----------



## Aurelino

You can add Brandon Roy to the list.


----------



## BlakeJesus

Kobe for me, at the moment.


----------



## Drewbs

It's embarrassing how much the Lakers depend on Kobe Bryant.


----------



## Plastic Man

Drewbs said:


> It's embarrassing how much the Lakers depend on Kobe Bryant.


I agree.

I'm starting to get the feeling that Bynum is not who we thought he was. He and Gasol just don't seem to mesh well and the Lakers as a team function better with LO in instead of him. He's too slow on offense for my liking, takes too much time to decide what to do with the ball... 

And the bench needs strengthening. I never thought I'd say this, but I can't wait they get Luke back. Someone who'll think pass first on that band of shot-happy backups.


----------



## Lynx

Plastic Man said:


> I agree.
> 
> I'm starting to get the feeling that Bynum is not who we thought he was. He and Gasol just don't seem to mesh well and the Lakers as a team function better with LO in instead of him. He's too slow on offense for my liking, takes too much time to decide what to do with the ball...
> 
> *And the bench needs strengthening. I never thought I'd say this, but I can't wait they get Luke back. Someone who'll think pass first on that band of shot-happy backups.*


Luke Walton FTW. 

I told you. Y'all laughed at me.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Right now, Kobe, followed closely by Lebron.


----------



## Chan Ho Nam

Lebron right now


----------



## Jakain

Chan Ho Nam said:


> Lebron right now


Agreed.


----------



## Luke

Tossup between LeBron and Kobe, and when in doubt I'm going with the homer pick Kobe.


----------



## Basel

1. Kobe
2. LeBron


----------



## Dualie

Even with the head to head Christmas day loss, Kobe.


----------



## 77AJ

Kobe Bryant is the MVP of this entire season so far. If you care about who's playing best for a week or month, Check out the NBA's choices for those honors. MVP of the 1st quarter of the season is Kobe no doubt.


----------



## rocketeer

i'm still trying to figure out how kobe has been better than lebron in any way this season.

the mvp is obvious. it's lebron. and that's very unlikely to change.


----------



## 77AJ

rocketeer said:


> i'm still trying to figure out how kobe has been better than lebron in any way this season.
> 
> the mvp is obvious. it's lebron. and that's very unlikely to change.


Get your nose out of Brons backside, and understand everyone here can have their own opinion. Bron hasn't done anything this year to be considered the best player or the MVP. His defense has dipped considerably from last season, and his team isn't nearly as good as last season. Kobe on the other hand's stats are even better this year, and his team is playing great. It's Kobe Bryant for MVP this year.\

But keep scratching your head. Maybe one day you will get it.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

LeBron is the best player in the league, but Kobe is the favorite to win MVP right now. He is coming off of a title and is having a better season than last year. He has had a memorable season so far because he has two buzzer beaters and is leading the league in scoring. The fact that he is hurt draws more attention to his great play. 

LeBron is coming off an MVP season and leading his team to 66 games. This means voters will hold that against him. Is he really playing better than last season and will his team win 66 games again? They will not give him MVP if he doesn't at least match last years output. Not unless Kobe trails out.


----------



## ChiBron

Only 1 1/2 games separate LA and Cleveland despite LA playing less games against .500+ teams and nearly playing half the amount of road games Cleveland has. LA's cupcake schedule and LeBron's superior stats give him the edge over Kobe. He's the MVP as of right now and with Cleveland now putting it together, I don't see that changing the rest of the season.


----------



## bball2223

rocketeer said:


> i'm still trying to figure out how kobe has been better than lebron in any way this season.
> 
> *the mvp is obvious*. it's lebron. and that's very unlikely to change.





23AJ said:


> Get your nose out of Brons backside, and understand everyone here can have their own opinion. *Bron hasn't done anything this year to be considered the best player or the MVP.* His defense has dipped considerably from last season, and his team isn't nearly as good as last season. Kobe on the other hand's stats are even better this year, and his team is playing great. It's Kobe Bryant for MVP this year.\
> 
> But keep scratching your head. Maybe one day you will get it.


Is this a game of try to make the biggest homer statement? 

LeBron is not the obvious MVP. He is definitely one of the top two candidates, but no one is the obvious MVP as of this point. Right now it's a two player race between Bron/Kobe and from reading this thread it seems like people see it pretty equally. 

However saying Bron has not done anything to be considered the best player or the MVP is mind boggling. I mean his team has a near similar record to the Lakers while playing a tougher schedule and has won the head to head matchup (on the road mind you). The team records are pretty similar and both are having great statistical seasons. I mean both are very deserving of this point. 

As of this point I slightly favor Kobe, but LeBron is every bit as deserving. More Bron/Kobe debates will take place the rest of the season, hopefully we have more reasoning with some of these arguments then just "he is the obvious MVP", or "so and so has done nothing to show he is the MVP or the best player" without going further. :greatjob:


----------



## rocketeer

bball2223 said:


> Is this a game of try to make the biggest homer statement?
> 
> LeBron is not the obvious MVP. He is definitely one of the top two candidates, but no one is the obvious MVP as of this point. Right now it's a two player race between Bron/Kobe and from reading this thread it seems like people see it pretty equally.
> 
> However saying Bron has not done anything to be considered the best player or the MVP is mind boggling. I mean his team has a near similar record to the Lakers while playing a tougher schedule and has won the head to head matchup (on the road mind you). The team records are pretty similar and both are having great statistical seasons. I mean both are very deserving of this point.
> 
> As of this point I slightly favor Kobe, but LeBron is every bit as deserving. More Bron/Kobe debates will take place the rest of the season, hopefully we have more reasoning with some of these arguments then just "he is the obvious MVP", or "so and so has done nothing to show he is the MVP or the best player" without going further. :greatjob:


lebron has absolutely been the best player in the league this year and deserves to be the mvp. it's hard for me to see how that isn't obvious. you can say that's being a homer if you want, but i'm not really sure that makes a ton of sense in this situation.

the only real "argument" against him is the one sir patchwork just talked about where people may not want to vote for lebron if his team record is worse or if he has a slightly worse season statistically than he did last year even though he's still the best player in the league. it's stupid for that to play a part in the decision, but it's the reality of it.


----------



## hendrix2430

Two guys are above everyone else right now. Kobe and Lebron (again...)

Kobe is the favorite to win at this point, but it's early. Lebron is getting really close...


----------



## Dualie

Kobe has an injured finger on his shooting hand and had to learn to shoot without using his index finger on the ball. Over just the last week he averaged 37 ppg. Thoughts?


----------



## Pinball

Sir Patchwork said:


> LeBron is the best player in the league, but Kobe is the favorite to win MVP right now. He is coming off of a title and is having a better season than last year. He has had a memorable season so far because he has two buzzer beaters and is leading the league in scoring. The fact that he is hurt draws more attention to his great play.
> 
> LeBron is coming off an MVP season and leading his team to 66 games. This means voters will hold that against him. Is he really playing better than last season and will his team win 66 games again? They will not give him MVP if he doesn't at least match last years output. Not unless Kobe trails out.


Anthony is still leading the league in scoring, barely. However, Kobe has closed the gap and will probably overtake him soon. He and Lebron are the only guys I know that can close a scoring gap that quickly.


----------



## Pinball

As for my vote, I have to give Kobe the slight edge. From watching the games, I can see that Kobe and Lebron are the two best players in the league. Neither guy looks superior to the other. Statistically, they are the two best players in the league. Lebron's stats look better. I'll give the edge to the guy that gets more out of his team. If the Lakers finish with 8 or more wins than the Cavs, I'd probably give it to him. Otherwise, I'd give it to Lebron. It will become clear once the season is over.


----------



## Plastic Man

Dualie said:


> Kobe has an injured finger on his shooting hand and had to learn to shoot without using his index finger on the ball. Over just the last week he averaged 37 ppg. Thoughts?


Selfish.

LeBron would dial in on his scoring and average 20 assists per game. Because he's _that_ good.

EDIT: and the other version, just in case so I can cover all the ground. Kobe always milks his injuries, which are never serious, so it looks as if he's that tough and that he cares so much about winning. Luckily everyone sees right through his charade of these fake injuries and that supposed toughness of his.


----------



## Dualie

Plastic Man said:


> Selfish.
> 
> LeBron would dial in on his scoring and average 20 assists per game. Because he's _that_ good.
> 
> EDIT: and the other version, just in case so I can cover all the ground. Kobe always milks his injuries, which are never serious, so it looks as if he's that tough and that he cares so much about winning. Luckily everyone sees right through his charade of these fake injuries and that supposed toughness of his.


I believe he's really hurt. His finger has been wrapped and it was pointed out the Christmas day game I believe, that he had to retool his shot to adjust. They've won 3 out of the last 4 so I don't think its hurting the team enough to call it selfish. The recent loss to Cleveland obviously stands out when comparing the two players but I would still give it to Kobe. I don't think we can predict what Lebron would do with the same injury, only acknowledge what Kobe has done.


----------



## Drewbs

he was being sarcastic...


----------



## Dualie

Touché


----------



## Plastic Man

Dualie said:


> Touché


----------



## Drewbs

Kobe dropped 44 tonight against the Warriors, I think with that he might have just overtaken Carmelo for the league's scoring leader.


----------



## Basel

Drewbs said:


> Kobe dropped 44 tonight against the Warriors, I think with that he might have just overtaken Carmelo for the league's scoring leader.


I believe so as he was only 1/10th of a point away.

And he also had 11 assists (season high). Kobe's definitely the MVP so far.


----------



## Pioneer10

Kobe is not "definitely" the MVP.
Lebron's got better numbers (PER, TS%, better assist ratio, better rebound rate, higher adjusted+/-) and his team has beaten Phoenix, Orlando, LAL, Atlanta, Dallas, etc with a lot of those wins on the road. For those complaining of Lebron's defense: he's picked that up as he shut down guys like Evans and Joe Johnson just over the last week.


----------



## Basel

Okay, not "definitely."

But I still believe he's the MVP.


----------



## croco

Basel said:


> Okay, not "definitely."
> 
> But I still believe he's the MVP.


You are believing that every single season though


----------



## Basel

croco said:


> You are believing that every single season though


He has a case for it every year.


----------



## Luke

Not last year.


----------



## PauloCatarino

The guy who is leading his team to the best record in the league; and also leading the league in scoring. With a freaking broken finger on his shooting hand!


----------



## Plastic Man

I might say LeBron now given the Lakers 3-2 record an the Cavs 4-0 in the past week or so. They will be the only two viable candidates from now on I think.


----------



## 77AJ

Kobe Bryant


----------



## Basel

Yeah, it's Kobe.


----------



## Pinball

PauloCatarino said:


> The guy who is leading his team to the best record in the league; and also leading the team in scoring. With a freaking broken finger on his shooting hand!


For now. Kobe is having an amazing season but the Lakers haven't looked impressive in many of their wins. Squeaking out games against mediocre teams when you are supposed to be the best team in the league is disconcerting. They'll still be good for 60+ wins but not the 67-68 I thought earlier. Too many mental lapses and poor PG play. 

BTW, do not bump this in April when I'm proven wrong Jamel.


----------



## Lynx

Kobe with 3 game-winners in a month (Dec 4 09 vs Miami, Dec 16 09 vs Bucks, Jan 1st 2010 vs Kings)

:bsmile:


----------



## 77AJ

Pinball said:


> For now. Kobe is having an amazing season but the Lakers haven't looked impressive in many of their wins. Squeaking out games against mediocre teams when you are supposed to be the best team in the league is disconcerting. They'll still be good for 60+ wins but not the 67-68 I thought earlier. Too many mental lapses and poor PG play.
> 
> BTW, do not bump this in April when I'm proven wrong Jamel.


You can say that about all the elite teams in the NBA this season. They all seem to have been playing up and down to the expectations of the fans in general. And have all had bad losses to mediocre teams, and have played nail biters to mediocre teams.


----------



## Drewbs

I'm really wondering what the Lakers are going to do about the PG position. Fisher is not a starting caliber PG and has not been one for many years now. He's inconsistent shooting the ball and couldn't defend my grandmother with two hip replacements these days.


----------



## Carbo04

Without looking through this thread, as of now it's Kobe. Case closed.


----------



## rocketeer

Carbo04 said:


> Without looking through this thread, as of now it's Kobe. Case closed.


game winning shots are nice, but being the better player throughout the game is better.


----------



## JT

case closed rocketeer.


----------



## Luke

Give me Kobe, he's been remarkable.


----------



## mysterio

..


----------



## mysterio

To get MVP consideration, you first of all have to be leading a contending team. Then to separate the candidates, you give equal consideration to i) who is more important to their team's success, and ii) raw stats. LeBron clearly edges out Kobe in both, so I can't see how anyone could objectively choose Kobe right now. Incumbency (being last season's champion) and "wow, he's having an awesome season" are irrelevant.


----------



## Lynx

mysterio said:


> *To get MVP consideration, you first of all have to be leading a contending team. *Then to separate the candidates, you give equal consideration to i) who is more important to their team's success, and ii) raw stats. LeBron clearly edges out Kobe in both, so I can't see how anyone could objectively choose Kobe right now. Incumbency (being last season's champion) and "wow, he's having an awesome season" are irrelevant.


Right, Lakers are pretenders.


----------



## mysterio

^ I see how you might have misunderstood. I was just reviewing the basic criteria. Of course, Lakers, Mavs, Cavs, Magic, Celtics, Spurs, and a few other arguables are contenders. The first step would eliminate guys like Chris Paul, Bosh, Durant. So, as far as MVP consideration (as in picking your top 3 MVP nominations), it can include players like Kobe, LeBron, Dirk, Duncan, Dwight Howard, maybe even Nash and Melo.

Anyway, LeBron beats all these guys in 3 of the 5 major statistical categories, is more important to their team's success, and the Cavs are just about as successful as the Lakers. So again, I don't see how anyone can objectively pick Kobe over LeBron right now.


----------



## Lynx

Dude, LeBron can pick as many MVP awards as he wants. Even Kobe doesn't care about those now. All I care, and it must be overwhelming opinion among Laker fans, is Kobe holding the Larry O'Brien trophy come June, and edging out MJ in terms of 'ship.

Perhaps, you should watch a lot more Laker games. Kobe has had mad stat in Dec - and Lakers would have lost as many games without him as they've won with him.


----------



## mysterio

Lynx said:


> Dude, LeBron can pick as many MVP awards as he wants. Even Kobe doesn't care about those now. All I care, and it must be overwhelming opinion among Laker fans, is Kobe holding the Larry O'Brien trophy come June, and edging out MJ in terms of 'ship.
> 
> Perhaps, you should watch a lot more Laker games. Kobe has had mad stat in Dec - and Lakers would have lost as many games without him as they've won with him.


Indeed, the Championship matters more than MVP awards to fans and players alike, but how is that relevant to this thread?

And yes, Kobe has made some game winners recently, but there's no doubt in my mind that the Lakers' win column wouldn't hurt nearly as much sans Kobe compared to the the Cavs' without LeBron.

PS: I'm not sure what MJ has to do with this. Even if Kobe miraculously retires with more rings than Jordan, he's still not going to be considered his peer.


----------



## rocketeer

Lynx said:


> Dude, LeBron can pick as many MVP awards as he wants. Even Kobe doesn't care about those now. All I care, and it must be overwhelming opinion among Laker fans, is Kobe holding the Larry O'Brien trophy come June, and edging out MJ in terms of 'ship.
> 
> Perhaps, you should watch a lot more Laker games. Kobe has had mad stat in Dec - and Lakers would have lost as many games without him as they've won with him.


jordan is irrelevant. kobe wants a championship every season. just like lebron does. just like duncan does. just like any great player(or really any player at all) does.

but being on the best team doesn't mean that you are the best player. or the most valuable player. it just means you were on the best team. so i'm pretty sure your post doesn't belong anywhere in this thread.


----------



## Lynx

Christ..read between the lines. I made MJ comment with Laker fans perspective. I know, for sure, it's gonna hurt among MJ fans once Kobe has more rings than MJ. Arguably, he's more close to SG position with MJ than anyone else in this generation.

Well, at least, rocketeer has accepted that Lakers are the best team. 

mysterio, in case you haven't noticed, West has more contenders than pretenders for Championship run.


----------



## gi0rdun

It's LeBron


----------



## Hyperion

Lynx said:


> Christ..read between the lines. I made MJ comment with Laker fans perspective. I know, for sure, it's gonna hurt among MJ fans once Kobe has more rings than MJ. Arguably, he's more close to SG position with MJ than anyone else in this generation.
> 
> Well, at least, rocketeer has accepted that Lakers are the best team.
> 
> mysterio, in case you haven't noticed, West has more contenders than pretenders for Championship run.


This has nothing to do with the thread. Also, Kobe will never be as good as Jordan ever. Let it go. Oh yeah, Lebron is MVP because he is leading the Cavs to one of the best records in the league. Kobe is on the most talented team in the league. Lebron on the otherhand has a team that, if he were injured, no one would be surprised if they went winless during that time.


----------



## Kidd

It's Kobe.


----------



## Lynx

Hyperion said:


> This has nothing to do with the thread. Also, Kobe will never be as good as Jordan ever. Let it go. Oh yeah, Lebron is MVP because he is leading the Cavs to one of the best records in the league. Kobe is on the most talented team in the league. Lebron on the otherhand has a team that, if he were injured, no one would be surprised if they went winless during that time.


Bill Russell - more 'chips...better than MJ :bsmile:


----------



## Pinball

Lynx said:


> Christ..read between the lines. I made MJ comment with Laker fans perspective. I know, for sure, it's gonna hurt among MJ fans once Kobe has more rings than MJ. Arguably, he's more close to SG position with MJ than anyone else in this generation.
> 
> Well, at least, rocketeer has accepted that Lakers are the best team.
> 
> mysterio, in case you haven't noticed, West has more contenders than pretenders for Championship run.


Championships are a team award. Russell won more championships than Wilt because he was on a superior team. If you look at their individual accolades, there was no comparison. Wilt was far superior. Additional championships will not elevate Kobe past Jordan. Jordan will always have more MVPs, DPOYs, and 30+ ppg seasons than Kobe. He'll always be the better player.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

Pinball said:


> Wilt was far superior.


Please no. Not this again.

:smackalot:


----------



## Damian Necronamous

mysterio said:


> PS: I'm not sure what MJ has to do with this. Even if Kobe miraculously retires with more rings than Jordan, he's still not going to be considered his peer.


If Kobe gets 30-5-5 a few more years, comes up big in the playoffs and the Lakers win 3 more rings (not saying that'll be easy haha), a lot of people will be saying he's as good as Jordan. This is especially the case when you consider the caliber of the teams playing today (Boston, Cleveland, Orlando, Dallas, San Antonio - yes, the Spurs will be there at the end). I'm not saying they're better than in Jordan's days. I'm just saying that the competition is very good.


----------



## Luke

Pinball said:


> Championships are a team award. Russell won more championships than Wilt because he was on a superior team. If you look at their individual accolades, there was no comparison. Wilt was far superior. Additional championships will not elevate Kobe past Jordan. Jordan will always have more MVPs, DPOYs, and 30+ ppg seasons than Kobe. He'll always be the better player.


...Russell would've had more DPOY if they existed, and he also won more MVPs. I'm not even disagreeing with what you originally said, but you're back up argument makes no sense.


----------



## Hyperion

VanillaPrice said:


> ...Russell would've had more DPOY if they existed, and he also won more MVPs. I'm not even disagreeing with what you originally said, but you're back up argument makes no sense.


I'm willing to bet you were born after both of them retired, so what does it matter? They are legends. No one here has seen them play, and if they did, it was 40-50 years ago. Why do you need to say one was better than the other? Are we picking teams? Is there a Zombie Wilt and a stem cell soaked Russell* coming into the 2010 draft? The point is, I can't argue one way or the other because 90% of games back then weren't televised and certainly none were recorded. These are all arguments based on conjecture and statistical analysis (which even Simmons admits that statistics don't show the whole story and as time passes, we forget how good they were). On top of that, Simmons, was born in 1969, he never saw Russell OR Wilt play. 

Now can we please move this thread back to the point? Who is THIS YEAR'S MVP?

*please reference the Futurama episode where they all receive cash rebates from defeating the neutral planet.


----------



## 77AJ

Kobe Bryant


----------



## 77AJ

gi0rdun said:


> It's LeBron


Are you the little dude that has been running his mouth all around bbb.net saying that LA looks to be in trouble because they have won some close games against mediocre teams ? And that Kobe Bryant with his three game winning buckets this year are nothing special ?

Well did you see your King play tonight ? The Bobcats went into Cleveland and beat the Cavs, and LeBron James missed essentially the same shot Kobe made the other night. 

So I really hope all you LeBron James fans, are not a bunch of deceitful hypocrites who talk out the side of your neck. Shouldn't you all be making admissions about how the Cavs barely beat mediocre teams, or have lost to them, and LeBron isn't clutch enough to win games at the end of tight ball games this season. Come on guy's you have zero problem throwing those bogus claims out about Kobe and LA. Let's hear that same madness about your boy James and the Cavs.

And yeah once again Kobe Bryant is the MVP.


----------



## Basel

That wasn't even close to the same shot. Kobe was wide open, LeBron wasn't. 

But yeah, Kobe's the MVP.


----------



## 77AJ

Basel said:


> That wasn't even close to the same shot. Kobe was wide open, LeBron wasn't.
> 
> But yeah, Kobe's the MVP.


I mean if you want to be technical about it sure, but Kobe made some game winners this season with a hand in his face to. And again if were technical about it, James took his shot from the corner. That adds to the difficulty of the shot, but doesn't change the fact if it goes in or not. That's really my point. Bryant is making the clutch bucket at the end of the game with a hand in his face or not. LA is winning games, and should be given credit for it. And not have everything played down. As the fan's of James have been doing. So I'm interested in why we don't hear the same maddening criticism of James and the Cavs that we do of Kobe and LA.

And yeah Kobe is the MVP.


----------



## HB

If the Grizz make the playoffs and are a few games over .500, the REAL MVP of the league is Zach Randolph. They will never give it to him though.


----------



## carlos710

23AJ said:


> So I'm interested in why we don't hear the same maddening criticism of James and the Cavs that we do of Kobe and LA.


Maybe because Lebron is not playing alongside 4 all-star talents and a HOF coach like kobe does.

Only Odom is playing clearly under his carrer averages and he is a sixth man for the lakers.


----------



## Basel

HB said:


> If the Grizz make the playoffs and are a few games over .500, the REAL MVP of the league is Zach Randolph. They will never give it to him though.


That would be great, actually. I'd love to see it happen, but we all know it won't.


----------



## 77AJ

carlos710 said:


> Maybe because Lebron is not playing alongside 4 all-star talents and a HOF coach like kobe does.
> 
> Only Odom is playing clearly under his carrer averages and he is a sixth man for the lakers.


LeBron James has plenty of talent as the Cavs are stacked. Please when are the James fans going to let all the excuses go. I'm so sick and tired of LeBron having a ready made excuse for failure every season. Wether it's his teammates, or his age, or his coach, or the Cavs organization on a whole. 

You don't see people giving Dwight Howard, Dwyane Wade, and Chris Bosh those ready made excuses. I mean damn I believe a lot of stars would love to play on the Lakers, but you know what, you make the best out of what you have. Make no doubt about it, the Cavs are one of the most stacked teams in the NBA. If your going to do the cry me a river dance about what a star has to work with, why not look at history, you remember KG in Minnesota ? Dude took all the criticism in the world with his lack of playoff runs because of the teams he had to play with there. I get it though not James, let's just make excuse after excuse.


----------



## Hyperion

23AJ said:


> LeBron James has plenty of talent as the Cavs are stacked.


You just lost.


----------



## carlos710

23AJ said:


> LeBron James has plenty of talent as the Cavs are stacked. Please when are the James fans going to let all the excuses go. I'm so sick and tired of LeBron having a ready made excuse for failure every season. Wether it's his teammates, or his age, or his coach, or the Cavs organization on a whole.


Maybe when they have a real all-star next to him (not guys like Mo williams or a 37 old shaq)



23AJ said:


> You don't see people giving Dwight Howard, Dwyane Wade, and Chris Bosh those ready made excuses. I mean damn I believe a lot of stars would love to play on the Lakers, but you know what, you make the best out of what you have. Make no doubt about it, the Cavs are one of the most stacked teams in the NBA. If your going to do the cry me river dance about what a star has to work with, why not look at history, you remember KG in Minnesota ? Dude took all the criticism in the world with his lack of playoff runs because of the teams he had to play with there. I get it though not James, let's just make excuse after excuse.


Dwight howard doesn't needs any excuse because his team is one of the most talented in the league. Nobody says nothing about wade or bosh this season because their supporting casts are as bad or worst than the cavs so nobody expects them to make a run for the title.

KG probably had more help back then than lebron now. At least he had guys in their prime like Wally, Terrel brandon, sam casell among others and almost always he lost in the first round. Lebron has carried a bunch of scrubs to the finals already, that's why he isn't in the KG group.


You may hate Lebron, that doesn't means that he isn't clearly the best player in the league right now, his team just lacks the talent that others (lakers, celtics, magic) have


----------



## 77AJ

Underrating LeBron James teammates is quite the trend. Congratulations, your part of the mainstream brain swell. 


And saying KG's Timberwolves teams having more talent than the Cavs now is laughable. And if your dumb enough to bring up Sam Cassell years in Minny, than you obviously missed the entire point of my post. Which isn't all that surprising considering the nut hugging your doing with James. It's okay I realize your a bit upset, with James missing the big shot at the end of the game tonight, and the Cavs losing to another mediocre team this season.


----------



## Wade County

Kobe has gotta be the early MVP favourite.


----------



## rocketeer

23AJ said:


> You don't see people giving Dwight Howard, Dwyane Wade, and Chris Bosh those ready made excuses. I mean damn I believe a lot of stars would love to play on the Lakers, but you know what, you make the best out of what you have. Make no doubt about it, the Cavs are one of the most stacked teams in the NBA. If your going to do the cry me a river dance about what a star has to work with, why not look at history, you remember KG in Minnesota ? Dude took all the criticism in the world with his lack of playoff runs because of the teams he had to play with there. I get it though not James, let's just make excuse after excuse.


you really are unbelievable. you're seriously trying to say that lebron's supporting cast is comparable to dwight's? or that you honestly haven't heard plenty of people talking about how wade doesn't have enough help in miami? and you really don't remember tons of people talking about how garnett never had enough help in minnesota other than the one year they made a deep run?

i mean, we all know that you hate lebron but at least try to comment on reality and not your little fantasy world.


----------



## Pinball

rocketeer said:


> you really are unbelievable. you're seriously trying to say that lebron's supporting cast is comparable to dwight's? or that you honestly haven't heard plenty of people talking about how wade doesn't have enough help in miami? and you really don't remember tons of people talking about how garnett never had enough help in minnesota other than the one year they made a deep run?
> 
> i mean, we all know that you hate lebron but at least try to comment on reality and not your little fantasy world.


It's kind of funny, actually. I mean he is just a straight hater and finds different ways to criticize Lebron in every thread. You've got to respect him for that.


----------



## rocketeer

Pinball said:


> It's kind of funny, actually. I mean he is just a straight hater and finds different ways to criticize Lebron in every thread. You've got to respect him for that.


i do think it's funny to see him in every game thread rooting for whoever the cavs happen to be playing that night.


----------



## carlos710

23AJ said:


> And saying KG's Timberwolves teams having more talent than the Cavs now is laughable. And if your dumb enough to bring up Sam Cassell years in Minny, than you obviously missed the entire point of my post. Which isn't all that surprising considering the nut hugging your doing with James. It's okay I realize your a bit upset, with James missing the big shot at the end of the game tonight, and the Cavs losing to another mediocre team this season.


This was KG supporting cast ten years ago (and their PER - MPG), their top 8 in MPG after KG:


Terrel brandon (20.8 - 36.4)
Wally Sczerbiak (15.4 - 29.7)
Malik Sealy (14.4 - 29.2)
Joe Smith (14.4 - 25.3) 
Anthony Peeler (13.2 - 25.3)
Rasho Nesterovic (11.0 - 21.0)
Sam Mitchell (12.0 - 18.6)
Bobby jackson (14.6 - 14.2)

This is lebron's supporting cast this season:

Mo Williams (17.2 - 35.7)
Varejao (14.3 - 30.3)
Anthony parker (9.5 - 28.8)
Ilgauskas (13.0 - 21.7)
Daniel gibson (12.1 - 18.1)
JJ Hickson (12.6 - 18.7)
Delonte west (13.7 - 21.7)
Shaq (15.5 - 23.0)

I don't see much difference in their supporting casts and actually I would say that KG's was better. Terrel was a much better player than Mo Will, Joe Smith and varejao is a tie IMO (joe better in offense, varejao better in defense). The cavs are also playing a terrible player in offense like Parker (7.2 with FG% of 43.1%) big minutes, while the wolves had a more reliable player in Sealy (11.6 PPG with 47.6% FG%). The other top 2 guys (Shaq and Wally) are hard to compare since they roles are very different, however I would say that Wally fulfilled his role better than shaq. At this point shaq is not a reliable offensive option (TS% of 51% for Shaq) and he is as lazy as always as a defender. Wally is obviously another poor defender, but at least he was a better scorer (TS%: 57.1%)


Also, while KG averaged 22.9 PPG in the regular season (with a PER of 23.6 and a TS% of 54.5%) his numbers fell to 18.8 PPG with a PER of 20.5 and a TERRIBLE TS% of 44.1%. That's why he was usually blamed for their playoff loses, not only because his team lost, but because he failed to rise his game and often played worse in the playoffs.

Yes, he lost against a better team (the 00 blazers), but he still failed to make a large impact in the outcome of that series (unlike Lebron who has put great playoff performances even in his defeats).


----------



## 77AJ

carlos710 said:


> This was KG supporting cast ten years ago (and their PER - MPG), their top 8 in MPG after KG:
> 
> 
> Terrel brandon (20.8 - 36.4)
> Wally Sczerbiak (15.4 - 29.7)
> Malik Sealy (14.4 - 29.2)
> Joe Smith (14.4 - 25.3)
> Anthony Peeler (13.2 - 25.3)
> Rasho Nesterovic (11.0 - 21.0)
> Sam Mitchell (12.0 - 18.6)
> Bobby jackson (14.6 - 14.2)
> 
> This is lebron's supporting cast this season:
> 
> Mo Williams (17.2 - 35.7)
> Varejao (14.3 - 30.3)
> Anthony parker (9.5 - 28.8)
> Ilgauskas (13.0 - 21.7)
> Daniel gibson (12.1 - 18.1)
> JJ Hickson (12.6 - 18.7)
> Delonte west (13.7 - 21.7)
> Shaq (15.5 - 23.0)
> 
> I don't see much difference in their supporting casts and actually I would say that KG's was better. Terrel was a much better player than Mo Will, Joe Smith and varejao is a tie IMO (joe better in offense, varejao better in defense). The cavs are also playing a terrible player in offense like Parker (7.2 with FG% of 43.1%) big minutes, while the wolves had a more reliable player in Sealy (11.6 PPG with 47.6% FG%). The other top 2 guys (Shaq and Wally) are hard to compare since they roles are very different, however I would say that Wally fulfilled his role better than shaq. At this point shaq is not a reliable offensive option (TS% of 51% for Shaq) and he is as lazy as always as a defender. Wally is obviously another poor defender, but at least he was a better scorer (TS%: 57.1%)
> 
> 
> Also, while KG averaged 22.9 PPG in the regular season (with a PER of 23.6 and a TS% of 54.5%) his numbers fell to 18.8 PPG with a PER of 20.5 and a TERRIBLE TS% of 44.1%. That's why he was usually blamed for their playoff loses, not only because his team lost, but because he failed to rise his game and often played worse in the playoffs.
> 
> Yes, he lost against a better team (the 00 blazers), but he still failed to make a large impact in the outcome of that series (unlike Lebron who has put great playoff performances even in his defeats).


Did you actually watch basketball in the 90s, or just try to come up with theories after reading basketball-reference.com ? 

Because your post is a bunch of garbage and completely baseless. Anyone that knows anything about those Minnesota teams know about all the turmoil that team had to deal with. You realize Terrell Brandon was injury prone in Minnesota ? You realize Malik Sealy was killed by a drunk driver the year your comparing, after leaving Kevin Garnetts birthday party? Wally Z was a rookie that season, the only thing he could do to contribute is shoot the ball, and nothing else, and Joe Smith "" Come on dude was barely good for 9 points and 6 boards a game on that team. A washed up Shaq in Cleveland has better numbers than that. However any intelligent basketball fan knows why Shaq is in Ohio. It's not for his stats, but for his ability to play Dwight Howard one on one. But yeah your not going to get that kind of info from basketball-reference.com.

Again KG never had as good of a supporting cast in Minnesota minus the Sam/Spree years. And we all saw how that turned out.

I get it though you got your ready made excuse for LeBron James failing this season. His supporting cast wasn't even better than the Minnesota Timberwolves teams KG had to play with. 

The excuses never end, nice legacy your building for this James/Cavs era.


----------



## 77AJ

LA beat a good team in the Mavericks, who gasp! Just beat the Cavs last week. And LA beat the Mavs with out the help of Artest and Gasol. I mean how could a team with out all stars at every position that Kobe leads beat a good team. 

KB24 MVP.


----------



## carlos710

23AJ said:


> Did you actually watch basketball in the 90s, or just try to come up with theories after reading basketball-reference.com ?


Yes, thats why I'm certain that you didn't.



23AJ said:


> Because your post is a bunch of garbage and completely baseless.


Is this your counter argument ? That you are right and I'm wrong just because you say so ?




23AJ said:


> Anyone that knows anything about those Minnesota teams know about all the turmoil that team had to deal with. You realize Terrell Brandon was injury prone in Minnesota ?


Do you realize that Terrel Brandon played 71 games that season?



23AJ said:


> You realize Malik Sealy was killed by a drunk driver the year your comparing, after leaving Kevin Garnetts birthday party?


:rofl: :rofl: do you realize that he was ALIVE that season and actually played all 82 games ?



23AJ said:


> Wally Z was a rookie that season, the only thing he could do to contribute is shoot the ball, and nothing else, and Joe Smith "" Come on dude was barely good for 9 points and 6 boards a game on that team. A washed up Shaq in Cleveland has better number than that. However any intelligent basketball fan knows why Shaq is in Ohio. It's not for his stats, but for his ability to play Dwight Howard one on one. But yeah your not going to get that kind of info from basketball-reference.com.


So you agree with me on that. Both were pretty useless at that point of their carrers. But atleast Wally was an scorer for 73 games of the season. Shaq won't play Howard more than 4 times in the regular season and maybe not even a single game in the playoffs.




23AJ said:


> Again KG never had as good of a supporting cast in Minnesota minus the Sam/Spree years. And we all saw how that turned out.


The point is not that Garnett had a great supporting cast. Just that it was on the same level as Lebron's supporting cast, the only difference is that Lebron has achieved much more than him with comparable talent on their respective rosters.

You failed to bring any proof that Garnett's cast THAT season is any worse than lebron's current supporting cast.


----------



## Drewbs

This is where PER fails, PER measures offensive impact, the only reason why the Cavs ARE good is because as a team they are so good defensively and bring it every night defensively. That's not going to put up gaudy stats that's going to push up any player's PER, but it's just as important.


----------



## 77AJ

carlos, didn't realize you were waiting for my response all night. I had dinner, took a shower, and got things ready for work tomorrow. Had I known you needed an immediate response I would of been happy to oblige. Next time PM. Hate to see a Bron guy nervously waiting behind their computer screen all night for a message board post. I really don't need to delve much more into what I already said, your posts lack any real merit, your using stats in a dishonest way. And obviously underrating the Cavs, and overrating the Timberwolves to better your argument. Nice try, I give you that.


----------



## Hyperion

23AJ said:


> LA beat a good team in the Mavericks, who gasp! Just beat the Cavs last week. And LA beat the Mavs with out the help of Artest and Gasol. I mean how could a team with out all stars at every position that Kobe leads beat a good team.
> 
> KB24 MVP.


The Cavs thumped the Lakers. So what? LeBron has better stats, a worse team, and the approximately the same record. 

As for KG theory, he did have one good team, and that was a stretch to say that. The league was weak then. To argue otherwise is silly. If you aren't satisfied with my wisdom, go look up the PER of Lakers, Kings, and other playoff teams that year 03-04. You'll be rather disappointed with how marginal teams were those years.


----------



## 77AJ

The East has been weak for nearly a decade, should we start discrediting the success and achievements of teams and players because of that ? I think you have to take PER with a grain of salt when being used so heavily and extensively by fans to base their conclusions about the game of basketball. Its simply one measure, there are plenty more to use, and there are also plenty of aspects of the game that can't be measured by stats. For example a poster in this thread was trying to compare Delonte West to a guy on Minny based on PER/stats. However ask any Cavs fan how important Delonte West is to the Cavs, and how his individual stats/per in no shape or form measure the impact he provides for his team.


----------



## Pioneer10

Drewbs said:


> This is where PER fails, PER measures offensive impact, the only reason why the Cavs ARE good is because as a team they are so good defensively and bring it every night defensively. That's not going to put up gaudy stats that's going to push up any player's PER, but it's just as important.


The Cavs have a decent supporting cast but it's definitely not typical of teams that win titles. They're all a bunch of roleplayers: good roleplayers mind you but no real star. The Cavs next two best players behind James are Mo and AV for example. Mo is a very good scorer but he plays porous defense and if his shot isn't falling doesn't get to the foul line to be much of a threat. Anderson is the opposite a guy who is awesome on defense and a hustle guy on offense but definitely not somebody you want to be depending on to score. After that again they have guys like Shaq, West, Z, Moon, etc who will have a good offensive game every other/couple of games and work on defense.

Most title teams win with at least and often 3 really superstar types (i.e. guys who are enough of an offensive threat to demand double teams and routinely get to the foul line) surrounded by good roleplayers. Lakers with Pau/Bynum, Magic/Kareem/Worthy, Celtics Bird/Mchale/parris, Garnett/Pierce/Allen, Spurs with Duncan/Ginobili/Parker, etc. Now the Cavs have more good roleplayers then those teams. Are they good enough I think they have a shot but damn the way the Cavs play there are very dependent on Mo and then hoping somebody else gets hot. I say to really fill the holes so that they are equal to other contenders they need to add a PF who can score to make it work. Right now even with all there roleplayers none of the big 4 has as big of weak link as JJ Hickson in the starting lineup


----------



## Hyperion

I will counter with my argument, that I think is everyone's who is saying that LeBron has a weak supporting cast.

A) How many games would you estimate the Cavs winning if LeBron went down with an injury?

B) Are the Cavs anywhere near as talented as the Celtics, Magic, Hawks, Lakers, Mavericks, Blazers, Spurs, Nuggets, or Suns? 

C) would you trade West for any of those teams' second-bananas?

EDIT: My point is that they have no business being a championship caliber team. They are only competing for the championship every year because of one guy. Otherwise they would probably miss the playoffs altogether. 

EDIT 2: If you want an historical team to compare these Cavs to in terms of talents, look at the 04-07 Lakers. The only difference is that Kobe made 42% of his shots and Lebron makes 47+% of his shots. (that's the difference between winning and losing)

EDIT 3: The funny thing is that Kobe had one season where he had a higher TS% than James and that was his MVP year.


----------



## Theonee

it is funny to see people talk about hypothetical situations like if Lebron missed games, Cavs would go winless. If you want t o get technical, Cavs actually have winning record when Lebron sat out.
Also if you ask anyone before the season started, they would think Rockets without Yao and Mcgrady would go winless, yet they are winning. Cavs and Rockets are similarly build teams, both depend on its hustle players and defensive players to win. So unless we see Cavs play a season without Lebron, we cannot just say they will go winless. That team is better than what Hollingers PER indicates.


----------



## Drewbs

Hyperion said:


> I will counter with my argument, that I think is everyone's who is saying that LeBron has a weak supporting cast.
> 
> A) How many games would you estimate the Cavs winning if LeBron went down with an injury?
> 
> B) Are the Cavs anywhere near as talented as the Celtics, Magic, Hawks, Lakers, Mavericks, Blazers, Spurs, Nuggets, or Suns?
> 
> C) would you trade West for any of those teams' second-bananas?
> 
> EDIT: My point is that they have no business being a championship caliber team. They are only competing for the championship every year because of one guy. Otherwise they would probably miss the playoffs altogether.
> 
> EDIT 2: If you want an historical team to compare these Cavs to in terms of talents, look at the 04-07 Lakers. The only difference is that Kobe made 42% of his shots and Lebron makes 47+% of his shots. (that's the difference between winning and losing)
> 
> EDIT 3: The funny thing is that Kobe had one season where he had a higher TS% than James and that was his MVP year.


I do not think the Cavs would miss the playoffs altogether, I believe that in the east, even without Lebron James, they would at least be in contention for a spot. And also, I do not consider them a championship caliber team at this moment with their current lineup because their offense is too dependent on two players. The Cavs are a scrappy team that works hard and plays hard, a team like Houston has no business winning as many games as they have, and they had no business pushing the champion Lakers to 7 games, but they do and they did because they work on defense as a unit and play scrappy basketball. I see no reason why the Cavs without Lebron James could not be the same kind of team.


----------



## mysterio

23AJ said:


> Are you the little dude that has been running his mouth all around bbb.net saying that LA looks to be in trouble because they have won some close games against mediocre teams ? And that Kobe Bryant with his three game winning buckets this year are nothing special ?
> 
> Well did you see your King play tonight ? The Bobcats went into Cleveland and beat the Cavs, and LeBron James missed essentially the same shot Kobe made the other night.
> 
> So I really hope all you LeBron James fans, are not a bunch of deceitful hypocrites who talk out the side of your neck. Shouldn't you all be making admissions about how the Cavs barely beat mediocre teams, or have lost to them, and LeBron isn't clutch enough to win games at the end of tight ball games this season. Come on guy's you have zero problem throwing those bogus claims out about Kobe and LA. Let's hear that same madness about your boy James and the Cavs.
> 
> And yeah once again Kobe Bryant is the MVP.


:whiteflag: Dude just said "It's LeBron." Quit taking this so seriously, bro... 

for the record, I actually somewhat dislike LeBron, but under my objective MVP criteria, I can't not consider him the MVP right now.


----------



## rocketeer

so with kobe struggling to start the new year, lebron playing even better, and the lakers only having a one game lead over the cavs despite the cavs playing 9 more road games, even the kobe fans have to admit that the mvp is lebron at this point, right?


----------



## Pioneer10

http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-091126-27/weekend-dime-first-trimester-awards

I agree with Stein it's Gasol for sure. Kobe's sucked since Gasol's gone down bwahhaawahhhaa


----------



## Cap

Jesus, Stein is an idiot. Gasol doesn't think he's better than Carmelo Anthony let alone Kobe.


----------



## SheriffKilla

Update:
1. LeBron.. big game for LeBron against the Blazers who just beat the Lakers in LA
2. Kobe
3. Duncan.. another slow start but the Spurs are right in it
4. Durant
5. Bosh
With Melo injured, Dirk cooling off(sort of) and Wade and Howard a little bit disappointing (by their standards) I decided to put some new guys in it who are really playing well lately


----------



## Luke

It's LeBron at this point..


----------



## Ben

Based on current form and how inefficient Kobe has been recently (granted, he's had a bad finger), I'm going to have to agree it's LeBron.


----------



## HB

Been saying that for a while, Cavs are 30-10 right now. The only other all star player on that squad is Mo Williams, at the start of the season people were talking about Kobe, Bynum and Gasol being all stars. Bron is doing better with less talent. Guy's just putting up some sick statlines of late. He's the MVP.


----------



## Pinball

It's Lebron right now. Damn near the same record as the Lakers on a less talented team and with better stats. Kobe has another run left in him, though. He usually goes nuts right around the All Star break. I don't think he can win it unless the Lakers have a far superior record than the Cavs (8+ more wins) and I don't see that happening.


----------



## Hyperion

After seeing both the Lakers and the Cavs play the Suns, LeBron is MVP. He actually scared the Suns into submission. You could see that no matter where the ball was, they were all looking for Lebron to make sure they knew where he was at all times. Then when he got the ball, you could feel the excitement/nervousness in the arena. With Kobe, meh. He scored 30 without people really caring. I can't quite explain it, but when you're there, you can feel the difference. Jordan did that to crowds and James does that to crowds.


----------



## Drewbs

Kobe has been terrible the last stretch of games, shot has just been completely off.


----------



## Pinball

Hyperion said:


> After seeing both the Lakers and the Cavs play the Suns, LeBron is MVP. He actually scared the Suns into submission. You could see that no matter where the ball was, they were all looking for Lebron to make sure they knew where he was at all times. Then when he got the ball, you could feel the excitement/nervousness in the arena. With Kobe, meh. He scored 30 without people really caring. I can't quite explain it, but when you're there, you can feel the difference. Jordan did that to crowds and James does that to crowds.


That's probably because the Cavs run a HS offense that revolves around Lebron. The ball goes into his hands on every possession. He is involved in every shot attempt in their offense. I'd want to know where he was on every possession as well.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

Pinball said:


> That's probably because the Cavs run a HS offense that revolves around Lebron. The ball goes into his hands on every possession. He is involved in every shot attempt in their offense. I'd want to know where he was on every possession as well.


That tells you how good Lebron is. CLE offense for all it's simplicity, believe it or not is ranked *#5 in the entire NBA* in offensive efficiency:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holl...//insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats


----------



## Luke

Benedict_Boozer said:


> That tells you how good Lebron is. CLE offense for all it's simplicity, believe it or not is ranked *#5 in the entire NBA* in offensive efficiency:
> 
> http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holl...//insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats


He didn't say that it wasn't efficient or effective, but one player having the ball in his hands nearly every possession is obviously going to boost his numbers.


----------



## Diable

That's a totally bogus argument. Kobe has a slightly higher usage rate than Lebron. Only player in the league that's higher is Wade. Anyone who watches can tell he's using the ball as much as anyone in the league. Who is leading the NBA in Field Goal attempts? James is actually fifth in field goal attempts per game. Right now Kobe is averaging 3.4 more shots per game.


----------



## Luke

Diable said:


> That's a totally bogus argument. Kobe has a slightly higher usage rate than Lebron. Only player in the league that's higher is Wade. Anyone who watches can tell he's using the ball as much as anyone in the league. Who is leading the NBA in Field Goal attempts? James is actually fifth in field goal attempts per game. Right now Kobe is averaging 3.4 more shots per game.


I never said that Kobe shoots less then James, I said the offense is run through him less. Big difference.


----------



## Diable

So it's just pure obfuscation then, because we all know that there's a very good reason why noone has every run an offense through Kobe. We all know there's a very good reason why the Cavs have always ran their offense through Lebron. The entire line of argument is bogus and has no substance.


----------



## Drewbs

um, the lakers DID run their entire offense through him in 2005/2006.


----------



## playablue

Drewbs said:


> um, the lakers DID run their entire offense through him in 2005/2006.




Now ur pulling at straws.....what is that supposed to mean?


----------



## Pinball

Before this turns into a stupid Kobe/Lebron debate let me just clarify what I said above. Hyperion said that the Suns were focused on where Lebron was the entire game. I said that I would watch him on every possession as well because the Cavs have a very simple offense. On about 75% of their possessions Lebron gets the ball at the top of the key and either attacks the hoop with the intention of scoring or drives and kicks it out to an open shooter. That's all I implied. Nothing about efficiency or shot attempts. Kobe has always shot the ball more than Lebron. His assist numbers would go up in the Cavs offense but they wouldn't go up significantly. He's a gunner who will pass when a good shot (against anything less than a double team) does not present itself. Lebron will pass when a guy is open.


----------



## ChiBron

Pinball said:


> On about 75% of their possessions Lebron gets the ball at the top of the key and either attacks the hoop with the intention of scoring or drives and kicks it out to an open shooter.


You just described the 05-08 Cavaliers, not the Cavaliers we have seen the last 2 seasons. Please watch some Cleveland games to realize how wrong you are.


----------



## PauloCatarino

HB said:


> Been saying that for a while, Cavs are 30-10 right now. The only other all star player on that squad is Mo Williams, at the start of the season people were talking about Kobe, Bynum and Gasol being all stars. Bron is doing better with less talent. Guy's just putting up some sick statlines of late. He's the MVP.


God forbid he breaks any finger (less alone in his shooting hand!)


----------



## Hyperion

Pinball said:


> Before this turns into a stupid Kobe/Lebron debate let me just clarify what I said above. Hyperion said that the Suns were focused on where Lebron was the entire game. I said that I would watch him on every possession as well because the Cavs have a very simple offense. On about 75% of their possessions Lebron gets the ball at the top of the key and either attacks the hoop with the intention of scoring or drives and kicks it out to an open shooter. That's all I implied. Nothing about efficiency or shot attempts. Kobe has always shot the ball more than Lebron. His assist numbers would go up in the Cavs offense but they wouldn't go up significantly. He's a gunner who will pass when a good shot (against anything less than a double team) does not present itself. Lebron will pass when a guy is open.


Well what I really meant was that the suns were scared ****less of lebron. They were jumpy and played too loose off their guys because they wanted to be ready when lebron got the ball. He intimidated the suns. Kobe doesn't do that. When Kobe drops thirty on the suns, they don't ditch their game plan. When lebron is merely on the court, they don't rotate properly, close out, or box out because they are looking for what lebron is going to do. That's why he's the MVP, no other player in the league can do that to a team.


----------



## 77AJ

LeBron James is the MVP of the league right now. As Kobe's cooled off, and Bron has kicked it up another gear. However two weeks ago when I was debating here, Kobe was killing it in the league, and the MVP no doubt in my mind. 

Right now though I give the edge to James, he's had three extremely impressive games. Even though two of the three ended up in losses (Denver,Utah, Golden State).


----------



## Ben

NBA.com's current list is at - 



> 1. LeBron James
> 2. Kevin Durant
> 3. Kobe Bryant
> 4. Steve Nash
> 5. Brandon Roy
> 6. Dirk Nowitzki
> 7. Tim Duncan
> 8. Dwight Howard
> 9. Dwyane Wade
> 10. Chris Bosh


http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/01/15/racetomvp.week11/index.html


----------



## Zach79

The challenge is among Durant, James, Kobe and Dirk. Kobe is injured so James is MVP right now, but I think that the challenge will be between Kobe and Durant (what a team Oklahoma is), because LeBron won last year


----------



## Ben

^It's not rare for a player to win it two years in a row.


----------



## Zach79

FX™ said:


> ^It's not rare for a player to win it two years in a row.


Yes, but I think LeBron won't win again this year. He'll be MVP in the finals...


----------



## Hyperion

FX™ said:


> ^It's not rare for a player to win it two years in a row.


It is but for some reason it's becoming the norm to do it now.


----------



## Ben

> 2008-09	LeBron James	Cleveland
> 2007-08	Kobe Bryant	Los Angeles Lakers
> 2006-07	Dirk Nowitzki	Dallas
> *2005-06	Steve Nash	Phoenix
> 2004-05	Steve Nash	Phoenix*
> 2003-04	Kevin Garnett	Minnesota
> *2002-03	Tim Duncan	San Antonio
> 2001-02	Tim Duncan	San Antonio*
> 2000-01	Allen Iverson	Philadelphia
> 1999-00	Shaquille O'Neal	Los Angeles Lakers
> 1998-99	Karl Malone	Utah
> 1997-98	Michael Jordan	Chicago
> 1996-97	Karl Malone	Utah
> 1995-96	Michael Jordan	Chicago
> 1994-95	David Robinson	San Antonio
> 1993-94	Hakeem Olajuwon	Houston
> 1992-93	Charles Barkley	Phoenix
> *1991-92	Michael Jordan	Chicago
> 1990-91	Michael Jordan	Chicago
> 1989-90	Magic Johnson	Los Angeles Lakers
> 1988-89	Magic Johnson	Los Angeles Lakers*
> 1987-88	Michael Jordan	Chicago
> 1986-87	Magic Johnson	Los Angeles Lakers
> *1985-86	Larry Bird	Boston
> 1984-85	Larry Bird	Boston
> 1983-84	Larry Bird	Boston
> 1982-83	Moses Malone	Philadelphia
> 1981-82	Moses Malone	Houston*
> 1980-81	Julius Erving	Philadelphia
> 1979-80	Kareem Abdul-Jabbar	Los Angeles
> 1978-79	Moses Malone	Houston
> 1977-78	Bill Walton	Portland
> *1976-77	Kareem Abdul-Jabbar	Los Angeles
> 1975-76	Kareem Abdul-Jabbar	Los Angeles*
> 1974-75	Bob McAdoo	Buffalo
> 1973-74	Kareem Abdul-Jabbar	Milwaukee
> 1972-73	Dave Cowens	Boston
> *1971-72	Kareem Abdul-Jabbar	Milwaukee
> 1970-71	Kareem Abdul-Jabbar	Milwaukee*
> 1969-70	Willis Reed	New York
> 1968-69	Wes Unseld	Baltimore
> *1967-68	Wilt Chamberlain	Philadelphia
> 1966-67	Wilt Chamberlain	Philadelphia
> 1965-66	Wilt Chamberlain	Philadelphia*
> 1964-65	Bill Russell	Boston
> 1963-64	Oscar Robertson	Cincinnati
> *1962-63	Bill Russell	Boston
> 1961-62	Bill Russell	Boston
> 1960-61	Bill Russell	Boston*
> 1959-60	Wilt Chamberlain	Philadelphia
> 1958-59	Bob Pettit	St. Louis
> 1957-58	Bill Russell	Boston
> 1956-57	Bob Cousy	Boston
> 1955-56	Bob Pettit	St. Louis


Sorry, but that's not rare.


----------



## Tragedy

Lebron is the MVP so far


----------



## Zach79

FX™ said:


> Sorry, but that's not rare.


Yes, but LeBron is not MJ or Magic, and the Cavs are not as strong as the Spurs of Duncan were, and this is a very important factor.


----------



## Luke

FX™ said:


> NBA.com's current list is at -
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/01/15/racetomvp.week11/index.html


I'm a big Durant fan, but I couldn't put him as high as number two. I know Kobe's hit a bit of a rough strech (due to injuries) but he's better at pretty much every facet of the game sans rebounding and he's doing it on a better team. Durant and the Thunder have been a great story this year, but he shouldn't be number two at this point.


----------



## Pioneer10

I think Wade's being shortchanged a bit here. He's got the 3rd highest PER in the league (well everyone well's short of Lebron but still), has the highest adjusted +/-, and somehow has that pretty bad Heat squad above .500.


----------



## Ben

Zach79 said:


> Yes, but LeBron is not MJ or Magic, and the Cavs are not as strong as the Spurs of Duncan were, and this is a very important factor.


Is LeBron no Nash either?


----------



## Luke

Pioneer10 said:


> I think Wade's being shortchanged a bit here. He's got the 3rd highest PER in the league (well everyone well's short of Lebron but still), has the highest adjusted +/-, and somehow has that pretty bad Heat squad above .500.


He's in the same position that he was in last year, except he's not playing as well. Maybe he should be a spot or two higher, but it's not some big travesty that he's ranked that low.


----------



## lifemagnets

Lebron is playing at a high level right now. His stats are also impressive. IMO he should be the front runner for MVP.


----------



## Luke

^ Welcome to the site!


----------



## PauloCatarino

VanillaPrice said:


> ^ Welcome to the site!


Yeah. 4 posts so far and 3 of them about Cabron James.
Just what the Forum needed... :smackalot:


----------



## BlakeJesus

King James.

And D Wade was playing significantly better last season than this season (though he's been playing much better as of late) and didn't win it. VP is correct in saying it's not a travesty for Wade to be ranked on the low side.


----------



## SheriffKilla

Mid Season top 5:
1. LeBron James
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Tim Duncan
4. Kevin Durant... has been playing out of his mind the last month, and the Thunder really look like a playoff team now
5. Dwyane Wade... His shot is finally starting to go in again and that puts him back in the hunt


----------



## Luke

^ That seems about right at this point.


----------



## 77AJ

Big match up tonight. Kobe vs LeBron.


----------



## Luke

Kobe can make up some ground with a big preformance and a W tonight. Hopefully he and the Lakers capatalize.


----------



## Drewbs

anndd a swing and a miss.

that was just a horrible game that the lakers put up, wtf.

anyway, i'll add this, kobe is 31 and has played into june for the past two seasons as well as the olympics two seasons ago. he is slowing down and needs to take it easier. i think his game is as sharp as ever, and he was beasting it until all the injuries hit, but when you get older, playing through those injuries start to become more and more difficult and if you don't take the time to rest your body, they start to become nagging ones.


----------



## Hyperion

This just in: Lakers are soft. (except for Kobe and Artest)


----------



## ChrisRichards

LeBron, MVP, best player in the NBA.


----------



## 77AJ

Another great performance by Bron. He's solidifying his mark for MVP this season in my eyes. That said Durant will be in the MVP race in the years to come, and I could see him beating out guys like Wade, James, Bryant, and Howard. KD is dazzling in OKC.


----------



## Ben

That's a safe bet. I'll be very surprised if Durant retires with no MVP award to his name.


----------



## Postmortem

Its not hard to score 37 when you get 19 FT attempts.


----------



## hroz

1. LeBron
2. Kobe
3. Kevin

Only guys with any chance at the title unless they all get injured.

Ofcourse Durant needs to pick it up some more if he wants to be MVP. But he has the skills set to do it.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

I'm glad Durant is getting some recognition. I've been driving his MVP bandwagon since early December. The kid is a baller. He is one of a kind. A guy who is 6'10 with extremely long arms who is a dead-eye shooter is rare. People appreciate Dirk's greatness for that same reason, except Durant is much more athletic and a better ball handler (althogh not quite the shooter that Dirk is). 

It looks like LeBron will get #2 this year though. We have officially entered the LeBron years where you could give it to him every season.


----------



## rocketeer

Sir Patchwork said:


> It looks like LeBron will get #2 this year though. We have officially entered the LeBron years where you could give it to him every season.


that started a few years back. though right now we're at the point where he absolutely should be winning it every year, no question about it.


----------



## Ben

The guy is too good.


----------



## Pioneer10

I'm still baffled by why Wade is getting shafted here: why is Durant an MVP candidate but not Wade who has a higher PER, higher adjusted +/-, worse teammates and Miami's records essentially the same as the Thunder?


----------



## Hyperion

rocketeer said:


> that started a few years back. though right now we're at the point where he absolutely should be winning it every year, no question about it.


Yeah, the only way he's not going to get it every year is that they employ the voting standards they did to Jordan. You know it's the, "We're tired of voting for Jordan so let's vote for someone else even though it's a given that Jordan's the best player in the NBA," standard.


----------



## futuristxen

Durant is a lot better than I thought he would be.

I think the reason he's getting ahead of Wade in MVP talk is because Wade is just doing what he always does, and Durant is doing better than he's ever done, so there's more excitement about him.

This is also how in the future Lebron will lose MVPs. Eventually the media just starts measuring you against yourself, and then it's harder to stand out. You sort of have to alternate between having monster individual seasons and great team seasons. Even then eventually they will just get tired of voting for you. Jordan should have like 15 MVPs. Shaq should have like 5. Tim Duncan should have a lot more.


----------



## hroz

I dont know about Wade having a better team around him.
Look at their second third fourth options
Beasley v Westbrook
O'Neal v Green
Chambers v Sefolosha

Wade I would say has the better teammates atm.
Teamwise they have the same records pretty much.
Durant is scoring more points a game at a higher percentage.

But yes it does have a little to do with how excited we are about Durant. And his ability to get the Thunder into playoff contention. We all expected the heat to be either 5th or 6th in the EAST.


----------



## Pioneer10

hroz said:


> I dont know about Wade having a better team around him.
> Look at their second third fourth options
> Beasley v Westbrook
> O'Neal v Green
> Chambers v Sefolosha
> 
> Wade I would say has the better teammates atm.
> Teamwise they have the same records pretty much.
> Durant is scoring more points a game at a higher percentage.
> 
> But yes it does have a little to do with how excited we are about Durant. And his ability to get the Thunder into playoff contention. We all expected the heat to be either 5th or 6th in the EAST.


Offensively Miami's teammates maybe slightly better but OKC defense is what's driving them this year and Durant's teammates on defense are very good and IMO no question better by a significant margin then Miami's. They have the 5th ranked defense and if the All-NBA defense wasn't just based on reputation guys like Westbrook and Sefolasha would get consideration for the second team.

Any marginally better difference Durant has in TS% is negated by the fact that Durant TO ration is worse then Wade's while Wade's assist ratio is double that of Durant. It's unfortunate but because Riley has decided to punt on this season that Wade is being forgotten. Sure he isn't playing as well as last year but he had probably the best season statiscally of any SG in NBA history not named Jordan and maybe Kobe last year: hard to keep that up when your owner and GM have basically said they're going to wait till next year to seriously upgrade for a title run


----------



## Hakeem

Pioneer10 said:


> I'm still baffled by why Wade is getting shafted here: why is Durant an MVP candidate but not Wade who has a higher PER, higher adjusted +/-, worse teammates and Miami's records essentially the same as the Thunder?


Obviously partly because Wade's doing what he's always done while Durant is breaking out.

But also because Durant started relatively slowly but is now playing at the level everyone expects him to play for the rest of the season. 

eg In Oct and Nov he averaged 27 ppg on 46% from the field and 24% from long range, but in Dec and Jan has averaged 31 ppg on 50% from the field and 46% from range.

I think after the first dozen or so games his PER was around 20, but now it's worked its way up to 25. If he keeps playing like this, that will climb further.


----------



## SheriffKilla

Hakeem said:


> Obviously partly because Wade's doing what he's always done while Durant is breaking out.
> 
> But also because Durant started relatively slowly but is now playing at the level everyone expects him to play for the rest of the season.
> 
> eg In Oct and Nov he averaged 27 ppg on 46% from the field and 24% from long range, but in Dec and Jan has averaged 31 ppg on 50% from the field and 46% from range.
> 
> I think after the first dozen or so games his PER was around 20, but now it's worked its way up to 25. If he keeps playing like this, that will climb further.


Exactly, even though Wade has come as of late too, it seems Durant is getting better almost every game or something


----------



## Ben

Wade vs. LeBron tonight. I know Wade isn't quite in the MVP race, but I think this could be a great match-up, since Wade is playing great at the moment.


----------



## hroz

I gotta say its nice to see Wade's FG% rise. It used to be near .430. I didnt realise he had come back with a vengeance.


----------



## Ben

It's mainly due to him shooting .529% along with .375% from 3-point range, in the month of January.


----------



## BigMac

Zach Randolph


----------



## 77AJ

BigMac said:


> Zach Randolph


This.


----------



## Luke

So uhm.. Who else is secretly praying that either Dwight, Paul, or Durant get considerably better in the next few years so we don't have to sit through five straight LeBron MVPs? He is just on another level at this point, and I don't like it at all.


----------



## 77AJ

VanillaPrice said:


> So uhm.. Who else is secretly praying that either Dwight, Paul, or Durant get considerably better in the next few years so we don't have to sit through five straight LeBron MVPs? He is just on another level at this point, and I don't like it at all.


Maybe three in a row, but I don't see him winning more than that in a row. There are to many great young players with Dwight Howard and Kevin Durant both being younger than LeBron James who are already playing at an amazing clip. Plus you will have older players in the next few seasons, and I say older in basketball terms, in guy's like Dwyane Wade and Chris Paul gunning for at least one MVP. 

But time will tell, right now LBJ is the MVP.

Although I must say, minus a few bonehead plays by D Wade, he was every bit as good as LeBron James if not better in certain instances in their head to head match up tonight. It really highlighted what Pioneer10 has been saying about Dwyane Wade in this thread.


----------



## Ben

I wish NBA would stop calling LeBron, The King. I don't think I need to explain why, but it's just pretty annoying now.


----------



## rocketeer

FX™ said:


> I wish NBA would stop calling LeBron, The King. I don't think I need to explain why, but it's just pretty annoying now.


it's his nickname so you're going to have to learn to live with it.


----------



## Ben

I think I knew it was his nickname. Somehow that possibility crossed my mind.


----------



## Luke

23AJ said:


> Maybe three in a row, but I don't see him winning more than that in a row. There are to many great young players with Dwight Howard and Kevin Durant both being younger than LeBron James who are already playing at an amazing clip. Plus you will have older players in the next few seasons, and I say older in basketball terms, in guy's like Dwyane Wade and Chris Paul gunning for at least one MVP.
> 
> But time will tell, right now LBJ is the MVP.
> 
> Although I must say, minus a few bonehead plays by D Wade, he was every bit as good as LeBron James if not better in certain instances in their head to head match up tonight. It really highlighted what Pioneer10 has been saying about Dwyane Wade in this thread.


I was exagerrating for sure, but at this point it is plausible for him to atleast be one of the most deserving for the next five years. My point was really saying that I hope someone else can step it up to make the LeBron years less painful.


----------



## JerryWest

If LeBron deserves it, he deserves it. I have no problem with him winning 8 in a row if he is the best player in the league for the next 8 year.s


----------



## carlos710

VanillaPrice said:


> I was exagerrating for sure, but at this point it is plausible for him to atleast be one of the most deserving for the next five years. My point was really saying that I hope someone else can step it up to make the LeBron years less painful.


Why it would be painful ?


----------



## 77AJ

KennethTo said:


> If LeBron deserves it, he deserves it. I have no problem with him winning 8 in a row if he is the best player in the league for the next 8 year.s


That's not going to happen. And there has been guy's that deserved it years past, and didn't win the MVP. So deserving it, is only one piece of the pie when it comes to winning the MVP. Otherwise a guy like Michael Jordan would have won a lot more MVPs. However the media/writers use many forms to measure players as MVP. Hence Steve Nash winning two in a row a few seasons ago. Not saying Nash didn't deserve them, but he didn't win them on being the individually most dominate player in the league. It was a combination of many things.


----------



## 77AJ

carlos710 said:


> Why it would be painful ?


Maybe not so much painful, but redundant.


----------



## Luke

carlos710 said:


> Why it would be painful ?


Because I don't like him as a basketball player. I have absolutely no problem with him winning it if he deserves it, (which he probably will) I just won't enjoy it as a fan of the game and certain players.


----------



## Booowacai

Lerbron's control of the game become stronger,recently games,we can find that he figure out he must control the rhythm
so that the team come into more solidarity and powerful.
We must give the best praise to him for his best performance in the first half.


----------



## Booowacai

The NBA now has become increasingly intense, full of new faces makes the game appeal, 03 generation of brilliant times!


----------



## Hyperion

VanillaPrice said:


> Because I don't like him as a basketball player. I have absolutely no problem with him winning it if he deserves it, (which he probably will) I just won't enjoy it as a fan of the game and certain players.


Is it because he wears the wrong jersey?


----------



## Luke

Hyperion said:


> Is it because he wears the wrong jersey?


I would probably like him as a Laker, not to the extent that I liked Shaq/Kobe, but I would most likely be a LeBron fan. 

Don't get me wrong, if he deserves to win the award every year, then he deserves it. I personally would just prefer if a differnet player won it.


----------



## Booowacai

LBJ's growing route is so similar to MJ.
The most advance of them is the "NO ANSWER" playing style!
LBJ is really focus on the basketball so that CAV. can run well!
I hope he get Final Chanmpion earlier!


----------



## Ben

Just what we needed, more posters with every single post about James. :laugh:


----------



## Hyperion

VanillaPrice said:


> I would probably like him as a Laker, not to the extent that I liked Shaq/Kobe, but I would most likely be a LeBron fan.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, if he deserves to win the award every year, then he deserves it. I personally would just prefer if a differnet player won it.


Like Kobe.


----------



## Booowacai

We may be tire by the same man of MVP every season,but we must respect the reality that he is worthy to get the honor because of what he have done and his amaizing performance for us.


----------



## 77AJ

If Dwight Howard can consistently put up 20/20 and 30/20 games in the years to come, There is no doubt in my mind he will be winning many MVPs. IMO Howard and Durant will be two of the front runners for MVP next year.


----------



## Luke

Hyperion said:


> Like Kobe.


If he deserved it, yeah, I would love to see him win it. But, it's not like I was here screaming "Kobe MVP" chants last year when it was clearly Lebron's. And I'm not going to be doing the same this year unless Kobe somehow steps it up.


----------



## Dre

FX™ said:


> Just what we needed, more posters with every single post about James. :laugh:


One false post and he's out of here. I see that sig.


----------



## Booowacai

Honor belongs to the best!
Honor belongs to the reality!


----------



## Booowacai

Just post by your heart without imply on what others say!
Because reality is better than whatever other talk!


----------



## futuristxen

23AJ said:


> If Dwight Howard can consistently put up 20/20 and 30/20 games in the years to come, There is no doubt in my mind he will be winning many MVPs. IMO Howard and Durant will be two of the front runners for MVP next year.


Howard's stats seem to be declining with each year. Unless he starts to show more hunger, I doubt he'll ever be on that MVP level.

Durant will be there. But Howard needs to work a lot harder to get to 30/20. Right now even 20/20 seems a little beyond his reach. He's kind of on Mutombo's level right now, when he needs to be on Hakeem or Shaq's.

I think Chris Paul is a more real threat to Lebron. If he can get healthy, and the team around him gets a little more solid, he plays at a level that few can.


----------



## Ben

Booowacai said:


> We may be tire by the same man of MVP every season,but we must respect the reality that he is worthy to get the honor because of what he have done and his amaizing performance for us.





Booowacai said:


> Honor belongs to the best!
> Honor belongs to the reality!





Booowacai said:


> Just post by your heart without imply on what others say!
> Because reality is better than whatever other talk!


I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to hide you from the threads.


----------



## Booowacai

I want to known the reason why I make you hate, I just show my opinion, I don't attack anyone or any bad words.
If I said anything what make you mad ,I am sorry to you!


----------



## Ben

Chauncey Billups is the MVP of that Nuggets team. If they could get a few more wins and challenge Lakers at the top, I'd give him a shout.


----------



## 77AJ

futuristxen said:


> Howard's stats seem to be declining with each year. Unless he starts to show more hunger, I doubt he'll ever be on that MVP level.
> 
> Durant will be there. But Howard needs to work a lot harder to get to 30/20. Right now even 20/20 seems a little beyond his reach. He's kind of on Mutombo's level right now, when he needs to be on Hakeem or Shaq's.
> 
> I think Chris Paul is a more real threat to Lebron. If he can get healthy, and the team around him gets a little more solid, he plays at a level that few can.


I agree that early on in the season Dwight started out slow, but I think a lot of that has to do with all the new faces on the Magic. It seems the team has finally caught some traction and is getting in groove. 

Check out Dwight Howards stats for the past 7 games.

19 Points 10 Rebounds 4 Blocks 2 Steals 0 Assists
31 Points 19 Rebounds 3 Blocks 1 Steals 2 Assists 
16 Points 15 Rebounds 5 Blocks 0 Steals 3 Assists
22 Points 11 Rebounds 5 Blocks 0 Steals 1 Assists
20 Points 18 Rebounds 3 Blocks 2 Steals 4 Assists
16 Points 13 Rebounds 2 Blocks 0 Steals 1 Assists

With Dwight Howards offensive arsenal finally advancing, and his all around feel for the game advancing, I see no reason why a guy even younger than LeBron won't continue to climb to higher levels in the NBA. It's not like were watching a prime Dwight Howard. The guy just turned 24 two months ago.


----------



## Diable

So far seven games Howard has produced something close to what a superstar should produce almost every single night. Hooray for him.


----------



## Hyperion

FX™ said:


> I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to hide you from the threads.


I was moved.


----------



## HB

He's not the runaway DPOY because he 'showed' up for only seven games my friend.


----------



## Dre

VanillaPrice said:


> Because I don't like him as a basketball player. I have absolutely no problem with him winning it if he deserves it, (which he probably will) I just won't enjoy it as a fan of the game and certain players.


This is an old post pretty much, but why exactly don't you like him as a basketball player?


----------



## Pioneer10

The only question right now isn't who is going to win the MVP but whether Lebron is going to be an unanimous selection at this point. **

**barring injury, Tiger-like fiasco, and the other usual caveats


----------



## Diable

So Lebron should make sure that his girlfriend/ baby mama never has a nine iron I guess.


----------



## Hyperion

Diable said:


> So Lebron should make sure that his girlfriend/ baby mama never has a nine iron I guess.


No, just never marry her.


----------



## SheriffKilla

All Star break update

1. LeBron James
2. Kevin Durant
3. Dwayne Wade
4. Dwight Howard
5. Tim Duncan

Kobe will probably be top 5 when its said and done but right now because of injury and poor shooting leading up to(during) it, he is 6th
In fact, from what I can remember, this is the best time to make the Pau Gasol>Kobe for the Lakers arguement


----------



## futuristxen

Right now it seems like Lebron and KD are in a league of their own, and even in that Lebron is dominating.


----------



## Luke

fjkdsi said:


> All Star break update
> 
> 1. LeBron James
> 2. Kevin Durant
> 3. Dwayne Wade
> 4. Dwight Howard
> 5. Tim Duncan
> 
> Kobe will probably be top 5 when its said and done but right now because of injury and poor shooting leading up to(during) it, he is 6th
> *In fact, from what I can remember, this is the best time to make the Pau Gasol>Kobe for the Lakers arguement*


And it'll be about as correct as Pippen>Joradn during their days. I love Gasol, he's one of my favorite players and I'm ecstatic that he's on my favorite team. But at the same time I realize that anyone putting him on Kobe's level either hates Kobe or is just plain stupid. Honestly, watch some Laker games and tell me they're equally important to this team. /rant

I'm happy to see Durant getting some love though, dude's a monster. Unfortunately however, it's still LeBron by a mile.


----------



## ChrisRichards

Watch some laker games? what, with kobe or without kobe playing? if it's with kobe, I can't sit through that torture willingly.

I have seen enough games to know that without Pau, Lakers are first round fodder once again.

Look at the Lakers now without kobe, winning games as a TEAM. Any laker fan should enjoy the games. just wait until the "BLACK HOLE" comes back, so he can start chucking his shots again. you already hear Phil Jackson and Pau gasol talking about kobe's ballhogging.

only a matter of time before they have big chemistry issues. and it will be swwweeeeeettt to see a lakers team implode. again.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

There is no MVP discussion. There is LeBron James.


----------



## Hyperion

GrandKenyon6 said:


> There is no MVP discussion. There is LeBron James.


300 posts say otherwise. KD for the win!


----------



## Ben

D-Wade showed in the All-Star game that he is the MVP...
:beheader:


----------



## futuristxen

Lebron showed in every other game this season that he is the one


----------



## Diable

Here I always thought the All Star game was something of a joke. I didn't realize it counted towards the MVP.


----------



## HB

There's a good argument to make for KD, but it wont hold up in the long run. Bron wins it. If I were Bron, I'd stay on the Cavs just to increase my chances of winning MVP every year.


----------



## hendrix2430

KD is up there for sure, but it's Lebron's to lose. He'll probably win it this year and again in the future. With that said, KD is a phenomenal offensive player and will certainly be in the discussion each season from this point on.


----------



## Ben

Diable said:


> Here I always thought the All Star game was something of a joke. I didn't realize it counted towards the MVP.


Hence the :beheader:


----------



## Blue

It's gotta be....


----------



## SheriffKilla

^LMAO....
Skip Bayless is such an idiot


----------



## SheriffKilla

In all honesty Lakers play better w/o Bynum or Kobe sometimes
Of course they arent actually better w/o them but they do play more as a team(quote unquote) and Odom and Gasol just have really good chemistry together on the floor, but yeah at the end of the day you can play as a team and beat the Grizzlies(not a diss, Memphis is good) and win 55 in the regular season but when you are playing against Boston and Spurs in the playoffs you need a superstar go to guy down the stretch, and we saw what happened tonight, Lakers would have won if Kobe played


----------



## 77AJ

LMFAO great picture of Skip. Man I hated those awful Cavs jerseys he is wearing in that picture.


----------



## The Immortal CJ

Lebron is at the top right now with KD a close second.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

LeBron is the best but I'd like to see Durant win it. LeBron at this point could win it every year but Durant easily deserves it over anyone else. LeBron number one, Durant number two, and then theres a huge gap between anyone else.


----------



## Diable

Durant has no chance at the MVP. He's just going to get most of the 2nd place votes right now. It's amazing what a difference Brooks has made for the Thunder though. He's made that team play hard and play great defense. They've got more than enough talent to make it to the second round. It seems like Brooks has to get COY to me.


----------



## Blue

Dwight averaging 28+ pts, 16+ boards, and 4+ blocks since the ASG... Stay tuned


----------



## Ben

Diable said:


> Durant has no chance at the MVP. He's just going to get most of the 2nd place votes right now. It's amazing what a difference Brooks has made for the Thunder though. He's made that team play hard and play great defense. They've got more than enough talent to make it to the second round. It seems like Brooks has to get COY to me.


If he'd have kept up the 25+ point streak to challenge Jordan's, I'd have a hard time voting against him, especially with what he's done at Oklahoma.


----------



## Pioneer10

How is Durant even considered close to Lebron this year?
Lebron's has the best PER (top 5 season of all time), top 5 in both adjusted +/- and net +/- (of the other candidates only wade's in the top 5 for adjusted and Dirk for both)

What's crazy on top of that is he's leading the league in scoring (barely ahead of Durant) while at the same putting up the most assists/game of any forward in NBA history. He's going to shatter the assist record by a forward while playing on a pretty slow paced team. It's like putting a Stockton/Malone combo into one person.
http://thepaintedarea.blogspot.com/2010/02/lebron-on-pace-to-shatter-forward.html

At this point if it isn't unanimous for James it will be a joke


----------



## Ben

I don't think anyone in this thread thinks LeBron won't win MVP...


----------



## Hyperion

Steve Nash for 3!


----------



## Dre

Dwight deserves to be discussed more than Durant probably. I mean Durant's doing his thing but the Thunder are like a 4th tier team, let's not expedite the process, he'll have seasons where he actually deserves it.


----------



## rocketeer

Pioneer10 said:


> How is Durant even considered close to Lebron this year?


i don't understand why anyone feels the need to bring up other candidates at this point. kobe has hit a lot of game winners, durant has been huge on a surprise team, and dwight has put up monster numbers lately but none are even close to lebron. the mvp for this year has already been decided barring some huge change.


----------



## Luke

rocketeer said:


> i don't understand why anyone feels the need to bring up other candidates at this point. kobe has hit a lot of game winners, durant has been huge on a surprise team, and dwight has put up monster numbers lately but none are even close to lebron. the mvp for this year has already been decided barring some huge change.


..Because it's boring to just repeat "LeBron for MVP" over and over for six months. Nobody's saying that Durant or Howard deserve it over LeBron, but it isn't a crime to talk about the runner ups, even if the award is clearly in LeBron's hand.


----------



## HB

*The case for Howard*



> The numbers say Kevin Durant, LeBron James, and Dwyane Wade are the players who deserve to be in the mix for the NBA's Most Valuable Player Award. The mainstream media will mention other names and offer irrelevant reasons as to why Player A or Player B deserves to be in the discussion but at the end of the day, there are a variety of linear metrics that can be used as evidence to effectively decide the MVP and the stats will strongly back the names above. Unfortunately, the voters who decide the award don't always choose the right person but that is neither here or there.
> 
> There's another player who deserves to be mentioned as a worthy MVP candidate and his name is Dwight Howard. Perhaps you've heard of him. Howard is one of the best players in the league, yet you wouldn't know it sometimes by how often critics target him. Especially when compared to his peers like Durant, James, and Wade, who are praised more than they are criticized. Sometimes it seems like the opposite is true for Howard. Is some of the criticism of Howard warranted? Sure, but at the same time, some of it isn't. Which brings us back to Howard and the MVP race. At times, the critics' voices have been so loud that people have overlooked the fact that Howard has taken his game to another level since the middle of January and has carried his team on his back at the same time. Yes, it'd be nice if Howard played the entire season like he has the past month and a half but it's also important to note that he has taken his game to another level since the middle of January. Howard is playing some of the best basketball of his career right now and even though he's produced like this in the past when looking at monthly splits, it's the way he's been producing that's been impressive.


If you don't like stats, dont read the article. The point being made is that critics from the get go keep knocking Dwight for his so called lack of offense, but the things he does well, he truly excels at. He should be one of the top vote getters in the MVP discussion.


----------



## Luke

Right now it's probably -

1.) LeBron
2.) Durant
3.) Dwight
4.) Kobe
5.) Wade/Dirk


----------



## futuristxen

Why is Durant second place, and Melo isn't even in the top 5? Their stats are pretty similar, but the Nuggets are one of the top teams and the Thunder aren't.

I'd go:

1. Lebron


The rest:
1. Dwight
2. Melo
3. Durant
4. Dirk
5. Kobe

The Nuggets boot stomping Durant and the Thunder was an eye opener.


----------



## Aurelino

Melo might not even be the most valuable player on his own team.
Durant is leading a bunch of no-name youngsters to winning record in the West.


----------



## Blue

Aurelino said:


> Melo might not even be the most valuable player on his own team.
> Durant is leading a bunch of no-name youngsters to winning record in the West.


They're young but they're not 'no-names'.... They got 4 top 5 picks on that team...


----------



## futuristxen

Michael Westbrook is the ****, just as an example.


----------



## Dissonance

^Someone's confusing their sports haha.


----------



## futuristxen

Haha I always call him Michael Westbrook for some reason. The crazy thing is he's one of my favorite players on that team and in the league as a whole.


----------



## HB

Durant is having a great season but his team beats up on mediocre and poor teams. The Magic are in contention for a title. Dwight's their DEFENSE. Without Dwight that team isnt going anywhere.


----------



## Spaceman Spiff

Lebron
Durant
Melo
Dirk


----------



## Ben

HB said:


> Durant is having a great season but his team beats up on mediocre and poor teams. The Magic are in contention for a title. Dwight's their DEFENSE. Without Dwight that team isnt going anywhere.


They've beaten Orlando, San Antonio, Atlanta, Dallas etc. They haven't exactly been slouches.


----------



## HB

FX™ said:


> They've beaten Orlando, San Antonio, Atlanta, Dallas etc. They haven't exactly been slouches.


Except San Antonio, all those teams would sweep them in the playoffs


----------



## Ben

Point being? You said they've beaten up on just mediocre teams. They've beaten very good ones too.


----------



## HB

Did you not see Organized Chaos' post, most of their wins have come against average teams. Yes they beat some good teams, thats all nice and well, but if they played any of those teams right now, when they are gearing for the playoffs, it will be another story.


----------



## Ben

They've got a few of them near the end of the season, so we'll see. I was merely pointing out that they haven't just won against average teams, I wasn't saying anything to playoffs, don't know where you got that from.


----------



## Hyperion

FX™ said:


> Point being? You said they've beaten up on just mediocre teams. They've beaten very good ones too.


This isn't a logic thread, it's a blanket statement thread prefaced by broad observations.


----------



## Diable

I have little interest in arguing on who is going to be second or third in the MVP. However Durant is a better player than Dwight Howard right now and there's little doubt about that. There's no way you can make a valid argument for Howard by denigrating a player who has been on an entirely different level from him this year. Durant is a top tier player in the NBA. Howard is not. If you want to argue for Howard over Durant you sure as hell better talk about something aside from Howard and Durant.


----------



## Hyperion

My rankings:

1) James
2) Nash
3) Durant
4) Howard
5) Wade
6) Paul
7) Randolph
8) Joe Johnson


----------



## HB

Diable says some really interesting things. So if you were starting a franchise, you'd take Durant over Dwight right? And how is saying a guy's having a great season denigrating him? People seem to say whatever they like on here.

And to make it interesting he even speaks like there's no argument to be made as to who is better. Dude open your eyes, the Cavs specifically went out and got Shaq to deal with Dwight. The Celts thought Rasheed would help in that regards, the Lakers have Gasol and Bynum, Dallas just shored up their frontcourt, bottom line all the really good teams know Dwight is a problem and structured their teams that way. Durant is a very nice player, but I dont see any of the Elite teams having any nightmares about shutting him down call playoff time.


----------



## Diable

Between now and the start of this season Durant has improved more than Howard will apparently improve during his entire career. You can't be serious if you are going to argue that Howard is as good as Durant...Maybe as a rebounder. That's the most easily replaced skill in the NBA isn't it? Shotblocking? How often does a shot block result in any benefit to your team. Howard's not exactly Mutombo at that either. Shaq is 37 years old and he's in Cleveland so that Cleveland can guard the guys on the perimeter on actually make Orlando a dangerous team when they're hitting shots. When you put 37 year old Shaq on the same floor as Howard why don't you see much difference in their impact?


----------



## HB

A very very ignorant post and its pretty much how the media have viewed the Magic all season. Even when the team was playing great, the way they attacked the team you'd think they werent in playoff contention. Durant is a great offensive player, thats it. Dwight not only impacts the offense but we all know he is quite possibly the best defensive player in the league. There's no way whatever advantage Durant has on offense dwarfs that, but I most certainly can tell you that Dwight is light years ahead of Durant defensively. I can go into more details and completely kill this argument, but maybe you might make this a bit entertaining. I mean you are trying to make the argument that Dwight doesn't block shots as well as Mutombo, lol watch games man, do you know how many possessions he alters by just being in the paint? In Dwight's case though, pretty much most of his blocks lead to a fast break to the Magic's favor. When Dwight's in the game, opponents arent venturing in the paint as much. That picture I put up on the main board where Curry looked shocked pretty much sums it up. Go watch the Celts game and watch how Rondo couldn't penetrate the lane till Dwight was on the bench. Some arguments are better left untouched. Dwight Howard is a much better player than Durant. MUCH!


----------



## futuristxen

The thing that confuses people about Howard is that though he is not really as good as guys like Lebron, Wade, Durant, and Kobe. He's so much better than the rest of the players that play his position, that that gap makes him almost as much of a problem as the other guys.

But if you get a good defensive center(hard to find and get) who is strong, you can guard him one on one for the most part, and that shuts down the rest of the Magic, because you can get to their shooters.

If Atlanta had Kedrick Perkins, they could probably beat the Magic in 6 rather than losing in blowouts in 4.


----------



## Blue

Diable said:


> Between now and the start of this season Durant has improved more than Howard will apparently improve during his entire career. You can't be serious if you are going to argue that Howard is as good as Durant...Maybe as a rebounder. That's the most easily replaced skill in the NBA isn't it? Shotblocking? How often does a shot block result in any benefit to your team. Howard's not exactly Mutombo at that either. Shaq is 37 years old and he's in Cleveland so that Cleveland can guard the guys on the perimeter on actually make Orlando a dangerous team when they're hitting shots. When you put 37 year old Shaq on the same floor as Howard why don't you see much difference in their impact?


Between now and the start of the season?? Have you been living under a rock?? Durant has been a beast from YEAR ONE bro, you seem to be consistently a little slow when it comes to recognizing talent. Durant was essentially doing the same efficient scoring last year too, just in slightly less volume and w/o the team success. There were people LAST YEAR even questioning if Durant maybe had a better future than LeBron... He was that promising offensively. His progress this season is hardly that astronomical just because you're now finally realizing it. He's doing pretty much exactly what we all thought he was capable of last year, because the guys around him are finally stepping into their own and helping out. He has help now that's taking pressure off him, and doesn't have to force the issue as much. His consistency and #'s are benefiting as a result.

Dwight has also made great progress since he's come into the league. To say Durant made more progress in one year than Dwight has (and/or will) in his entire career is ignorance in regards to both Durant and Dwight's careers. Both guys are great players, but bring different things to the table. I dont know why you're so slow to recognize talent(probably has something to do with you looking stats and not watching the games tho). Durant was clearly an elite player last year. Heck, why do you think the guy was a consensus top 5 fantasy pick?? Kid was a problem.

Dwight is perhaps the most physically dominating force currently in the league. Sure, he's not the _most_ refined player offensive and he's not a prime Shaq but he's still damn good and brings more to the table defensively than anyone in the league. He is a problem too, whether you want to realize it or not. You seem to be a little slow to when it comes to identifying the future stars of this league.


----------



## Duck

Diable said:


> I have little interest in arguing on who is going to be second or third in the MVP. However Durant is a better player than Dwight Howard right now and there's little doubt about that. There's no way you can make a valid argument for Howard by denigrating a player who has been on an entirely different level from him this year. Durant is a top tier player in the NBA. Howard is not. If you want to argue for Howard over Durant you sure as hell better talk about something aside from Howard and Durant.


Your constant hate of Dwight is pretty remarkable. I'm actually impressed. I'm not going to harp on things already mentioned, but I do have a serious question for you that I would like you to answer honestly. 

Have you ever seen footage of Wilt Chamberlain play?

I'm not implying anything. I just want to know, truthfully, if you've ever watched Wilt play.


----------



## SheriffKilla

Diable said:


> Between now and the start of this season Durant has improved more than Howard will apparently improve during his entire career. You can't be serious if you are going to argue that Howard is as good as Durant...Maybe as a rebounder. That's the most easily replaced skill in the NBA isn't it? Shotblocking? How often does a shot block result in any benefit to your team. Howard's not exactly Mutombo at that either. Shaq is 37 years old and he's in Cleveland so that Cleveland can guard the guys on the perimeter on actually make Orlando a dangerous team when they're hitting shots. When you put 37 year old Shaq on the same floor as Howard why don't you see much difference in their impact?


Have you seen the Magic play in the last month?? Im not a Dwight fan. In fact I considered him overrated to a certain extent because of a lack of post moves and polish that is detrimental to being an elite player but since the all star break and even a few weeks before Howard has been an absolute beast..

BTW, Im waiting for 82games to update their stats so I can factor advanced stats into the list and than I will have an update....


----------



## Duck

HB said:


> Diable says some really interesting things. So if you were starting a franchise, you'd take Durant over Dwight right? And how is saying a guy's having a great season denigrating him? People seem to say whatever they like on here.
> 
> And to make it interesting he even speaks like there's no argument to be made as to who is better. Dude open your eyes, the Cavs specifically went out and got Shaq to deal with Dwight. The Celts thought Rasheed would help in that regards, the Lakers have Gasol and Bynum, Dallas just shored up their frontcourt, bottom line all the really good teams know Dwight is a problem and structured their teams that way. Durant is a very nice player, but I dont see any of the Elite teams having any nightmares about shutting him down call playoff time.


Quote For Emphasis.

Big men win championships.


----------



## Blue

Dwight Howard PER-24.1
Kevin Durant PER-25.2

Not that PER is the be all-end all, but for someone to act like these guys aren't on the same stratosphere is a joke(and we'll just ignore that Dwight had a PER of 25.4 last year). 

Dwight might not be that guy that you can just say 'get him the ball and get everyone the hell out his way', but he is still one of the biggest matchup nightmares in this league(yes, bigger than KD). There's just no one else with Dwight's combo of size, strength, athleticism, stamina, and skill in this league. He can anchor an offense and a defense. From what I see, KD can only anchor an offense. KD is one of my favorite players in this league, but for people to constantly undermine Dwight in such a disrepectful manner just speaks volumes to why the game is where it's @ today. It's perimeter game because the big guys aren't appreciated.


----------



## HB

Sometimes advanced stats irk me, which is why watching games then using stats can be so valuable. Anyone who has watched both guys play knows their operating styles differ. Dwight is constantly putting pressure on defenses, he gets to the foul line A LOT! Thats already one huge difference between him and Durant right there. Durant's a finesse player, he's hardly fouling out bigs by any means. Dwight does that. Guys like Vince and Shard can take guys in the post and get single coverage on the perimeter because teams are scared of Dwight and his rebounding prowess. I dont even need to talk about Dwight's D.


----------



## Blue

Exactly. Dwight is drawing doubles every single night. In the case of the Miami game, even triple teams and the entire team sagging in pretty much giving everyone else open looks. People just look @ Dwights scoring #'s and then assume he's not an elite player, but part of it is the attention he draws. He really is what makes his team tick on both ends and is an unselfish player. He's not a stat chaser.


----------



## rocketeer

Blue Magic said:


> Dwight Howard PER-24.1
> Kevin Durant PER-25.2
> 
> Not that PER is the be all-end all, but for someone to act like these guys aren't on the same stratosphere is a joke(and we'll just ignore that Dwight had a PER of 25.4 last year).


i really don't think PER is that good of a measure to compare players across positions. i think it has a lot of value in comparing players with similar roles(basically split into pgs, wings, and bigs).

edit - and no, i'm not saying that durant is far superior to dwight are anything like that. they definitely are on comparable levels as players.


----------



## Luke

Anybody who says Dwight isn't an elite player is an idiot. Plain and simple. He is the cog that makes that team full of jumpshooters work, and he's gotten them to be a damn good defensive team almost single-handidly.


----------



## rocketeer

HB said:


> Sometimes advanced stats irk me, which is why watching games then using stats can be so valuable. Anyone who has watched both guys play knows their style of operating differs. Dwight is constantly putting pressure on defenses, he gets to the foul line A LOT! Thats already one huge difference between him and Durant right there. Durant's a finesse player, he's hardly fouling out bigs by any means. Dwight does that. Guys like Vince and Shard can take guys in the post and get single coverage on the perimeter because teams are scared of Dwight and his rebounding prowess. I dont even need to talk about Dwight's D.


the idea that durant doesn't draw a lot of fouls or get to the line often is just silly. durant's foul drawing rate is right in line with lebron, wade, and melo and above guys like kobe and roy.


----------



## HB

Okay that was an exaggeration on my part with that said, Dwight by style of his play puts other teams bigs on the bench. You really dont want a center trying to guard Durant. See the difference. Dwight does attempt more Free throws than Durant though.


----------



## Blue

rocketeer said:


> i really don't think PER is that good of a measure to compare players across positions. i think it has a lot of value in comparing players with similar roles(basically split into pgs, wings, and bigs).


Im not really a big PER guy, especially considering it's weakness in the dept of defense, but for the sake to show this hater how foolish his statement is I think it is effective enough. Their PER's are almost equal right now. If anything, the guy could admit that these guys have a similar impact on the game @ the very least. KD is a force on offense. Dwight is a force on defense. The is just a hater, though.


----------



## rocketeer

HB said:


> Okay that was an exaggeration on my part with that said, Dwight by style of his play puts other teams bigs on the bench. You really dont want a center trying to guard Durant. See the difference. Dwight does attempt more Free throws than Durant though.


dwight probably has the highest foul drawing rate in the league. initially i was going to assume it had something to do with positional difference(and i'm sure that's a small factor), but with just a quick glance at some other guys dwight was far superior to duncan, dirk, bosh, amare, and gasol. that's definitely a strength of his that likely gets overlooked a lot, though some percentage of it is due to him being a bad free throw shooter which makes it smarter to put him on the line more often.


----------



## futuristxen

Does Dwight really make other teams pay for sending him to the line though? If Dwade or Kobe gets fouled he's making the other team pay for it. If Dwight goes to the line, he could miss both of them, and then it's like a turnover.


----------



## Duck

futuristxen said:


> Does Dwight really make other teams pay for sending him to the line though? If Dwade or Kobe gets fouled he's making the other team pay for it. If Dwight goes to the line, he could miss both of them, and then it's like a turnover.


He puts opposing team's bigs on the bench if the Magic feeds him the ball. Historically, he's had a tough time doing this against the lakers, but he's pretty good at it against the C's and the Cavs.


----------



## Aurelino

In a not-too-distant future, Durant is going to have a 30/10/5/2/1 season shooting 50% FG, 40% 3FG and 90% FT while leading his team to a top-3 seed in the West.


----------



## Blue

^KG-esque numbers's right, huh? (aside from 3pt% obviously and 30ppg, obviously)


----------



## HB

10rpg and 5apg and 2bpg? Yeah right

Why hasn't Dirk put up those type of numbers?


----------



## Aurelino

2 spg and 1 bpg. 

It is not too much of a stretch. He's already at 30/7.5/3/1.5/1 
and shooting 48%-38%-88% this season, and he's only 21. Once he gets stronger, understands the game more and becomes a better defender and playmaker, it is not inconceivable that he'll have a season like that in a few years. And btw, only Larry Bird has ever had a season like that.

Durant even now is a better scorer than Dirk and he's much more athletic to be a better defender and shotblocker.


----------



## HB

30ppg probable, but 5apg and 10rpg is a stretch. Dirk has hovered at 9.9rpg but never passed it. I doubt Durant will ever get stronger than Dirk. The 5apg is also sketchy, he'd have to handle the ball a lot to put up 30 and also dish out the ball that well.


----------



## futuristxen

Aurelino said:


> In a not-too-distant future, Durant is going to have a 30/10/5/2/1 season shooting 50% FG, 40% 3FG and 90% FT while leading his team to a top-3 seed in the West.


The current future Lebron is averaging almost 30/9/7/2/1 while shooting 50% from the field. 

It's funny that Lebron is playing currently at the fantasy level for any other good player. Rarefied air to be sure.

40/13/6 tonight in a ho-hum just another night performance for the best team in the league, by a few games now.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

^Yup. People take Lebron's greatness for granted lately. What's most impressive about him is his consistency, he has had maybe 2-3 bad games all season. Night in, night out he is putting up numbers on great efficiency.


----------



## SheriffKilla

Update:
1. LeBron James
2. Dwight Howard
3. Kevin Durant
4. Dwayne Wade
5. Kobe Bryant

Howard/Durant is basically a tie but with Orlando finally giving Howard the ball he has proven very dominant. As I said in a previous post, Im not a huge Howard fan but watching him play in the last month or so, he is as dominant as anyone in the league right now.
The way Dallas has been playing lately I almost put him over Kobe up there but it is a team effort and its been more about other guys stepping up than just Dirk.
Also I wanna name drop Josh Smith. Since the All Star break he is averaging 19/11/5 on 54% FG with a couple blocks and steals a game to boot.
Finally, I wanna say LeBron is consistently a great but lately he has been EVEN MORE amazing. Since the all star break he is averaging 30.9 points, 7.8 rebounds and 9.8 assists. That has something to do with his minutes increase and his 3PT% is down a bit but he is commiting less turnovers and getting more steals plus Cleveland is on a 6 game win streak


----------



## Blue

Are Cavs better w/o the Big Snaq?


----------



## SheriffKilla

In some ways yes but overall he is useful for them as a option in the post and to put a body on Howard if they end up facing the Magic


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## rayz789

Blue Magic said:


> Are Cavs better w/o the Big Snaq?


No. They going to need him to guard big guys like Howard who Shaq done good guarding so far. Howard this season hasn't bully the real superman in Shaq like the rest of the centers.


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## rayz789

fjkdsi said:


> Update:
> 1. LeBron James
> 2. Dwight Howard
> 3. Kevin Durant
> 4. Dwayne Wade
> 5. Kobe Bryant
> 
> Howard/Durant is basically a tie but with Orlando finally giving Howard the ball he has proven very dominant. As I said in a previous post, Im not a huge Howard fan but watching him play in the last month or so, he is as dominant as anyone in the league right now.
> The way Dallas has been playing lately I almost put him over Kobe up there but it is a team effort and its been more about other guys stepping up than just Dirk.
> Also I wanna name drop Josh Smith. Since the All Star break he is averaging 19/11/5 on 54% FG with a couple blocks and steals a game to boot.
> Finally, I wanna say LeBron is consistently a great but lately he has been EVEN MORE amazing. Since the all star break he is averaging 30.9 points, 7.8 rebounds and 9.8 assists. That has something to do with his minutes increase and his 3PT% is down a bit but he is commiting less turnovers and getting more steals plus Cleveland is on a 6 game win streak


I think Durant is number 2 behind Lebron in the mvp race cause the thunder last year had the worst record in the nba and this year they like 12 games over 500 with durant putting up amazing numbers. And for durant to score 25+ points 27 straight times is amazing. And if anybody have a problem with Lebron being the 1st race as mvp then can anybody do what lebron did by playing the point guard position 9 straight times without Mo and West and still win in which he put up big numbers of scoring and assist?


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## rayz789

Diable said:


> I have little interest in arguing on who is going to be second or third in the MVP. *However Durant is a better player than Dwight Howard right now* and there's little doubt about that. There's no way you can make a valid argument for Howard by denigrating a player who has been on an entirely different level from him this year. Durant is a top tier player in the NBA. Howard is not. If you want to argue for Howard over Durant you sure as hell better talk about something aside from Howard and Durant.


Dude both players play different positions in which Durant plays the sf while Howard plays the center lol. <<<<You can't say that player is better then the other when both play different positions. However a sf could guard a sg in which you can say kobe is better then lebron and wade or the other way around. But come on who's better between Durant or Howard? lol.


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## Ben

It's impossible to compare the two, they play completely different games, and in completely different positions.


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## clien

1) Durant
2) LeBron
3) Kobe
4) Melo
5) Dwight 

In my mind these guys have been the the top 5 most valuable players all year


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## Blue

In that Order?


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## Idunkonyou

Like I said in my other post, I think Lebron is the run away MVP, much like Howard is the run away DPOTY. If I had to list them in order it would be like this:

1. Lebron
2. Howard
3. Durant


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## Sir Patchwork

People fall in love with all-around numbers. Durant is a scorer. That's his role. He is also a good rebounder but it's likely he'll stay around 7-8 per game his whole career, because he is not going to work on rebounding. There are other things more important to work on. I'd like to see him become a great defender (and he has improved tremendously this seaosn) and further diversify his offensive arsenal before working on rebounding 2 more balls per game. Double doubles are arbitrary. This is the same thing I've said about LeBron for years. People always said he would acverage 9-10 rebounds one day, and it's just not going to happen. He is at a fine level of rebounding and doesn't need to put forth any more effort just to grab 2 more boards a game and make his statline look pretty. There are more important things to work on. 

Comparing Durant and Howard is foolish. One is a dominant defensive anchor and one is a top tier lethal scorer. Comparing them is like comparing offense and defense. Durant is a million times better and more valuable on offense, and Howard is a million times better on defense. Depends what your team needs. Both possess rare abilities.


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## SheriffKilla

Update
1. LeBron James
2. Dwight Howard
3. Kevin Durant
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Dwayne Wade

Wasnt sure who to give that 5th spot so I just went with Wade because he is a personal favorite. Orlando has been on a roll and Durant hasnt been quite as deadly as he was earlier this season so Dwight got the 2nd spot locked up at this point but things can change by the end of the season


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## SheriffKilla

Sorry about the lack of updates but number 1 is pretty clear
However the other 4 on the list are in any order:
Dwight, Durant, Kobe and Wade
Im gonna go with
1. LeBron
2. Wade (just because I like him more than the other 4)
3. Durant (Because he won the scoring title)
4. Howard 
5. Kobe (Im a Kobe hater so he is last on this list)


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