# Question?



## TheLastTruePG (Mar 25, 2003)

Everyone says Jamal needs to get stronger, right?? I mean how much stronger does this guy need to get?? I read a interview this guy lifts 245 lbs.. Yet a lot of folks are concerned about his strength..

http://www.reebok.com/x/us/rbk/features/alleyes/


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheLastTruePG</b>!
> Everyone says Jamal needs to get stronger, right?? I mean how much stronger does this guy need to get?? I read a interview this guy lifts 245 lbs.. Yet a lot of folks are concerned about his strength..
> 
> http://www.reebok.com/x/us/rbk/features/alleyes/


I'm not sure if Jamal really needs to get that much stronger. Some weight on his frame might help him with leverage against shooting guards. 

He certainly needs to play stronger though, go through screens, accept contract when driving the lane, etc.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Strength is not the issue with Jamal (now). Its about playing physical and initiating/taking contact.


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## TheLastTruePG (Mar 25, 2003)

If you take time to read his interview.. You'll see he would rather dunk on someone than do a finesse dunk.. How is that shying away from contact??


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheLastTruePG</b>!
> If you take time to read his interview.. You'll see he would rather dunk on someone than do a finesse dunk.. How is that shying away from contact??


That's all fine and good, but if you watched the whole season, Crawford rarely dunks on anyone and puts up finesse shots all the time.


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## TheLastTruePG (Mar 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> That's all fine and good, but if you watched the whole season, Crawford rarely dunks on anyone and puts up finesse shots all the time.


So you can't recall a time when Jamal tried to dunk on anyone??


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheLastTruePG</b>!
> 
> 
> So you can't recall a time when Jamal tried to dunk on anyone??


Jamal gets to the rim period much less on average than equally athletic shooting guards. He seldom (not never) dunks on anybody. The problem isn't really the lack of dunks but instead is the fact that he doesn't consistently get himself easier shots and free throw opportunities. JC clears himself space with his excellent crossover but then pulls up for a 8 foot floater when the dunk is there. Plus, since he avoids contact, he seldom gets fouled and therefore his excellent FT percentage is not a big advantage for him.


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## Philo (Feb 13, 2003)

I have never seen Jamal try to dunk over anyone...

However, he is an above-average dunker when he makes up his mind to slam it.

He is not an aggressive player, but he does his job well when motivated to do so.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TheLastTruePG</b>!
> 
> 
> So you can't recall a time when Jamal tried to dunk on anyone??


You know what Last, stuff like this makes me wonder if people actually watch the games instead of form their opinions off what they read here on the board in game threads (not referring to you).

Anyway, to answer your question, towards the end of the season we had a game in Cleveland and JC tried to dunk on Newble and Newble fouled him hard, no retaliation or anything from teammates.


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## TheLastTruePG (Mar 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> You know what Last, stuff like this makes me wonder if people actually watch the games instead of form their opinions off what they read here on the board in game threads (not referring to you).
> ...


Exactly that was one of the plays that came to my mind.. I also remember JC attempting to dunk on Charles Oakley.. Now we all know Oak wasn't the type to just let anyone dunk on him.. JC was fouled on the play..


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> You know what Last, stuff like this makes me wonder if people actually watch the games instead of form their opinions off what they read here on the board in game threads (not referring to you).
> ...


Stuff like what, Arenas? Jamal does not go the rack much, does not get fouled much, and avoids useful contact situations. What gets me about it is that he is very clearly capable of all these things. JC threw down a few nasty dunks this season, but way too few IMO.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I definitley remember those two off the backboard dunks, one in Seattle and the other in Orlando.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> I definitley remember those two off the backboard dunks, one in Seattle and the other in Orlando.


I'm not sure what the point of bringing up an instance here or there of Crawford dunking. Anyone who has watched the team for a while knows he can and sometimes does. But I also think anyone would agree he would be a more effective offensive player if he did it more often and/or got to the foul line more, right? 

This doesn't mean that he's bad or worthless or anything. It's just something he needs to keep adding to his game. Hopefully a little extra strength/bulk/experience will make him more willing.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what the point of bringing up an instance here or there of Crawford dunking. Anyone who has watched the team for a while knows he can and sometimes does. But I also think anyone would agree he would be a more effective offensive player if he did it more often and/or got to the foul line more, right?
> ...


I agree. Someone just asked if we had EVER seen Jamal dunk and those were the two flashiest instances I could recall so I mentioned them.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

Arenas, come on man... you know better.

Jamal got to the line a whole 240 times last year, which is almost 100 times less then any of his quality PG/SG conterparts.

Paul Pierce (Boston Celtics) .819 517 631 
Corey Maggette (Los Angeles Clippers) .848 526 620 
Kobe Bryant (Los Angeles Lakers) .852 454 533 
Tracy McGrady (Orlando Magic) .796 398 500 
Desmond Mason (Milwaukee Bucks) .769 356 463 
Chauncey Billups (Detroit Pistons) .878 404 460 
LeBron James (Cleveland Cavaliers) .754 347 460 
Allen Iverson (Philadelphia 76ers) .745 339 455 
Michael Redd (Milwaukee Bucks) .868 383 441 
Stephon Marbury (New York Knicks) .817 356 436 
Steve Francis (Houston Rockets) .775 337 435 
Vince Carter (Toronto Raptors) .806 336 417 
Andre Miller (Denver Nuggets) .832 342 411 
Jason Richardson (Golden State Warriors) .684 258 377 
Mike Bibby (Sacramento Kings) .815 304 373 
Baron Davis (New Orleans Hornets) .673 237 352 
Richard Hamilton (Detroit Pistons) .868 297 342 
Larry Hughes (Washington Wizards) .797 267 335 
Eddie Jones (Miami Heat) .835 278 333 
Sam Cassell (Minnesota Timberwolves) .873 289 331 
Gilbert Arenas (Washington Wizards) .748 237 317 
Eric Snow (Philadelphia 76ers) .797 252 316 
Dwyane Wade (Miami Heat) .747 233 312 

The bottom line is Jamal is not agressive enough at the 2 spot and relies on his jumper and the 3 point shot WAAAAAAY too much, as evidence by his 3rd in the league 521 attempts.

521 ATTEMPTS!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? It's a funny thing because the guys mentioned above (aside from a select few) are no where to be found on the 3 Point Attempt list. 

Wonder why?

They are too busy taking the ball to the hole.


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## TheLastTruePG (Mar 25, 2003)

DMD I respect your opinion.. JC is still developing as a player.. I think the bulls would be foolish to let this guy just simply walk right out the door.. It's not like he doesn't want to be great.. Whatever team JC plays for will be one of my favorite teams.. I'll be all but ready to renouce the Bulls as "my team".. I mean if you really think about it.. JC may in fact be destined to be a all star if he leaves the Bulls.. Similar to the Ron Artest, Brand Miller and 20 & 10 (Elton Brand)..


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

My high school shop teacher could count on one hand the number of Jamal's dunks last season.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> I definitley remember those two off the backboard dunks, one in Seattle and the other in Orlando.


yeah, i remember that off the backboard dunk in seattle...it was off a steal right? not in traffic? and while jamal was "celebrating" he forgot his defensive assignment (ray allen) who was already at midcourt and promptly scored a 3. was that the one? 

yeah, that was flashy.

:| 

*DaBullz!* hilarious comeback. rotfl.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Jamal could stand to bulk up that frame. I.m in favor of keeping him for his shooting, ballhandling and length. We've discussed the need for him to drive for scoring opportunities and drawingf fouls.

But I won't be truly happy with Jamal until he shows a willingness to step out an draw a charge. 

Anyone recall him ever doing so? I can't think of a single instance. He doesn't have to become a flop artist. But there's times when its the appropriate thing to do.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

DMD and Superdave have it pretty much nailed. Is Crawford willing to give up his body? When he's pushed does he push back? Will he take a charge?

Here's a very broad sampling of Eastern Conference players who are considered "scoring guards" vs. distributors, and how many free throws per game they'd average on a 48 minute basis:

Crawford: 4.1
Terry: 4.1
Wesley: 4.4
Welsch: 4.5
R. Davis: 5.3
E. Jones: 5.3
Hamilton: 5.9
B. Davis: 6.3
L. Hughes: 7.8
Pierce: 9.8
Iverson: 10.7

Now, its not always just about being tough and aggressive...reputation, who you play for, star status all are factors. Perhaps out of this group, the guy who surprised me the most was Larry Hughes, a player who Jamal has been compared to on occasion.

And in no way do these numbers paint a complete picture. But they are one indicator of how willing certain players are to risk getting a bloody nose. 

Jamal is not a timid player. But he is most definitely a finesse player at both ends. And as such there are limits as to the number of different ways he can contribute to victory. If he won't draw fouls or take a charge now and then he's not going to contribute to puting our opponents in foul trouble and he won't help his team enjoy the benefits of getting extra free throw opportunities because of the bonus rule. If he can be maneuvered into remaining on the perimeter offensively he's going to launch more low percentage shots. And what happens to missed 20 footers? More often than not they result in long rebounds which negates our size advantage around the basket. Long rebounds also translate into easy transition baskets for our opponents.

No doubt about it, if he's on he's unstoppable. But if he's not on, what are the other ways he can contribute? If Jamal was a 45% shooter or better, if he was willing to lure our opponents into foul trouble, he'd have already signed a large extension with Chicago. Unfortunately for him and for all of us he's none of these things.

Well, we've been over this countless times. Jamal is who he is. Truthfully, what you see is what you get. How much is what he has to offer worth? We'll see soon enough.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> 
> yeah, i remember that off the backboard dunk in seattle...it was off a steal right? not in traffic? and while jamal was "celebrating" he forgot his defensive assignment (ray allen) who was already at midcourt and promptly scored a 3. was that the one?
> ...


actually it was off of pick and roll with eddy curry , not on a fast break at all. If i remember correctly when a guard penetrates the other guard and small forward if they aren't involved in the play are supposed to rotate back to cover the penetrating guards man.....but thats basic abasketball , which has no place on the bulls , but its all a matter of conjecture anyway because JC got fouled on that play by reggie evans (who got dunked on by the way) so i dont think its a valid beef.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> actually it was off of pick and roll with eddy curry , not on a fast break at all. If i remember correctly when a guard penetrates the other guard and small forward if they aren't involved in the play are supposed to rotate back to cover the penetrating guards man.....but thats basic abasketball , which has no place on the bulls , so go ahead and blame JC for it.


i stand corrected then. :|


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> actually it was off of pick and roll with eddy curry , not on a fast break at all. If i remember correctly when a guard penetrates the other guard and small forward if they aren't involved in the play are supposed to rotate back to cover the penetrating guards man.....but thats basic abasketball , which has no place on the bulls , but its all a matter of conjecture anyway because JC got fouled on that play by reggie evans (who got dunked on by the way) so i dont think its a valid beef.


Yeah, you beat me to it. But the other version certainly is more anti-Jamal which a lot of folks seem to be about these days.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

All this talk about how Hinrich is tough and how Jamal has to toughing up is a bunch of bs. I can count the number of dunks Hinrich did last season on 2 fingers. Crawford had much more maybe Hinrich should be the one dunking more.

Also why the heck in free agency would Pax who can get this guy for around 6-7 million which is about half of what Antonio Davis makes who dont deserve it but this guy who was our best player last year who deserves it walk in free agency.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> All this talk about how Hinrich is tough and how Jamal has to toughing up is a bunch of bs. I can count the number of dunks Hinrich did last season on 2 fingers. Crawford had much more maybe Hinrich should be the one dunking more.
> 
> Also why the heck in free agency would Pax who can get this guy for around 6-7 million which is about half of what Antonio Davis makes who dont deserve it but this guy who was our best player last year who deserves it walk in free agency.


BBS7, dunking is not the point! It's a question of being an effective scorer and intimidator. Both Jamal and Kirk have to work on this. 

However, overall in his first season, I would say that Kirk was more willing to mix it up in the paint (and usually miss), draw contact (and not get a call), fight through a screen, or take a charge. 

They both have work to do. Most importantly, both need to improve those gross shooting percentages. 

Hinrich should get more of a pass because he was a rookie. But he better improve some of his weak points by next year if we want to compete. And yes, I hope he dunks more!


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The talk about FTs is appropriate.

I'd add that you don't have to drive to the hole to get fouled, you can do it by driving part way, or by going across the lane.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> The talk about FTs is appropriate.
> 
> I'd add that you don't have to drive to the hole to get fouled, you can do it by driving part way, or by going across the lane.


Right. Maybe Jamal should sign up for Flopping 101, co-taught by Vlade Divac and Reggie Miller.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> 
> i stand corrected then. :|


No, you're correct, actually. The play you're talking about did happen. Ace and Happy are getting it confused with one of the times he did it in the half court. I remember the play you're talking about vividly. Jamal had a break away and decided to throw it to himself off the backboard. I remember everyone getting up off the bench to hoot and holler. In the meantime, Ray Allen proceeded to breakout the other way and was left wide-open. I don't really think it was Jamal's fault. If you have a breakaway, someone else has to pick up the guy you were guarding if he breaks out. That's simple help defense. Anyway, just wanted to clarify that this play actually did happen.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> The talk about FTs is appropriate.
> 
> I'd add that you don't have to drive to the hole to get fouled, you can do it by driving part way, or by going across the lane.


well it certainly cant be the end all be all of what goes on , on offense ....Free throw attempts JC 240....KH 168 it would seem that crawford is more agressive if that were the measure and by a significant amount almost 50% more.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> 
> No, you're correct, actually. The play you're talking about did happen. Ace and Happy are getting it confused with one of the times he did it in the half court. I remember the play you're talking about vividly. He had a break away and decided to throw it to himself off the backboard. Ray Allen proceeded to breakout the other way and was left wide-open. I don't really think it was Jamal's fault. If you have a breakaway, someone else has to pick up the guy you were guarding if he breaks out. That's simple help defense. Anyway, just wanted to clarify that this play actually did happen.


thanks PC!!. thought i was remembering that correctly. i got momentarily intimidated by the great ACE and Happygrinch cause i wasn't sure...

whatever, guys. my bad to infer that it was "jamal's fault"...nothing is ever his fault.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> 
> No, you're correct, actually. The play you're talking about did happen. Ace and Happy are getting it confused with one of the times he did it in the half court. I remember the play you're talking about vividly. Jamal had a break away and decided to throw it to himself off the backboard. I remember everyone getting up off the bench to hoot and holler. In the meantime, Ray Allen proceeded to breakout the other way and was left wide-open. I don't really think it was Jamal's fault. If you have a breakaway, someone else has to pick up the guy you were guarding if he breaks out. That's simple help defense. Anyway, just wanted to clarify that this play actually did happen.


I know this wasn't the same play because the time he bounced it off of the backcourt in Seattle was in the half court and out of necessity, he even said as much. He couldn't get a pass of to anyone because they weren't open and he went up thinking pass but then had to adjust and bounced it off of the backboard to himself and dunked it. The one in Orlando was a breakaway I think.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> well it certainly cant be the end all be all of what goes on , on offense ....Free throw attempts JC 240....KH 168 it would seem that crawford is more agressive if that were the measure and by a significant amount almost 50% more.


I see FTA as a function of FGA. Maybe you should too ;-)


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> 
> No, you're correct, actually. The play you're talking about did happen. Ace and Happy are getting it confused with one of the times he did it in the half court. I remember the play you're talking about vividly. Jamal had a break away and decided to throw it to himself off the backboard. I remember everyone getting up off the bench to hoot and holler. In the meantime, Ray Allen proceeded to breakout the other way and was left wide-open. I don't really think it was Jamal's fault. If you have a breakaway, someone else has to pick up the guy you were guarding if he breaks out. That's simple help defense. Anyway, just wanted to clarify that this play actually did happen.


Actually you and Mizenkay are both wrong...

It was not on a breakaway...

It was an and1 play as well, when did Ray Allen have time to breakout?

During JC's free throw?


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

I have the video of the play on my computer...

If anyone wants to have their facts straight, let me know, and I'll post it.

I'll add to this and say I'll never forget this game because the kid looked like an all-star that night.

Curry and E-Rob showed up...

Everyone else took the night off...

Ridnour well, if you saw the game, he dominated our PG and made him leave with a sprained ankle after stealing the ball and then putting a move on him.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually you and Mizenkay are both wrong...
> ...


it did happen the play in which allen got a quick 3 off JC penetration it was after a play in which crawford missed a a reverse lay up i believe earllier in the game , but they are mistaken on the circumstance , it wasn't after JC threw it off the backboard , that only happened 2 times that season and in seattle a foul was called on evans (you can check the the play by play of the seattle game 5:28 left in the 3rd period)

jc only had one dunk that game.so everybody is right in a way...and wrong in a way.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> I have the video of the play on my computer...
> 
> If anyone wants to have their facts straight, let me know, and I'll post it.
> ...


We're talking about Jamal's game and [big surprise here] Arenas takes a jab at Hinrich. :uhoh: What exactly does this add to the discussion my man? Hinrich was a rookie last year and consistently one of our best players. I'm willing to look past one game versus Luke Ridnour (also a good player). Now this begs the question. Are you?

Getting back to the discussion at hand... can we say with certainty that 'lack of strength' is <b>NOT</b> what is holding Jamal back from consistently driving the lane and finishing?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Has he dunked before? Yes. And looked good doing it.

But nobody can deny that Jamal, in general, does not drive to the basket, especially if there is traffic. He is not known to fight through screens or set picks. He does not get fouled and does not get to the line. And as I stated above, to the best of my memory, he has never taken a charge in his life. (Maybe he has...but nobody has yet contradicted me. And if he has, its certainly a rare happening).


In reviewing the above, I'm led to the conclusion that Crawford lacks one of two things:








or









I'm hopeful that a little bulk, and some extra buildup regarding option 1 will take care of any deficiencies in option 2. I'm hopeful enough that some hard working out this offseason will change his attitude toward contact and give him confidence that he's not going to get injured by getting bumped around a bit that I am in favor of bringing him back. If I was convinced that he is going to continue to avoid the owies involved in a little physical play, I would change my mind.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> I have the video of the play on my computer...
> 
> If anyone wants to have their facts straight, let me know, and I'll post it.
> ...


Arenas, I remember what happened but I sure wouldn't mind seeing it again, or even his Orlando dunk if you happen to have it and could post it I would be much obliged. BTW, he also did the same move during the EBC once.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> We're talking about Jamal's game and [big surprise here] Arenas takes a jab at Hinrich. :uhoh: What exactly does this add to the discussion my man?


Go look at babyblue's post, I'm not the first one to mention Hinrich.

I was only stating that because it was one of the many things that stuck out about that game in particular.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Arenas, I remember what happened but I sure wouldn't mind seeing it again, or even his Orlando dunk if you happen to have it and could post it I would be much obliged. BTW, he also did the same move during the EBC once.


It's just funny ACE, because I remember the same junk being said around the time it actually happened.

People were saying while JC was celebrating, Allen was down the court hitting a 3.

It's very easy to see who watches the games and who just reads game threads and then all of a sudden a bunch of people believe something that didn't really happen.

Here's the proof...

It will only be up for a short time...

JC's Dunk @ Seattle


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

I suppose I stand corrected as well, then. I do remember a play this season when Jamal had a breakaway and threw the ball off the backboard to himself, along with the other time he did it in traffic. I thought the breakaway one was against the Sonics and Ray Allen broke out. I guess I'm wrong. My bad. 

And now back to the actual point of this thread...


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> We're talking about Jamal's game and [big surprise here] Arenas takes a jab at Hinrich. :uhoh: What exactly does this add to the discussion my man? Hinrich was a rookie last year and consistently one of our best players. I'm willing to look past one game versus Luke Ridnour (also a good player). Now this begs the question. Are you?
> ...


*superdave!* :greatjob: 

back to the topic:

i believe it is a fear of injury - or re-injury - that holds jamal back in this regard, not a lack of strength. 

the above statement is my opinion, ace, arenas and happygman are more than welcome to disagree - or tell me that i am wrong. 

an interesting sidenote or tidbit or file it under "for what it's worth" - here is jamal's pre-draft profile from nbadraft.net:

*Jamal Crawford Michigan Fr. SF 6-6 190 Very smooth, athletic slasher, an adept scorer. Needs some bulk. Bringing back the Slick Watts headband look. Exciting player with bigtime hops, the sky's the limit for him.* 

how is it possible that jamal hasn't gained any weight in four years?


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> It's just funny ACE, because I remember the same junk being said around the time it actually happened.
> ...


well i beg your pardon. you are right. i am wrong. 

babyblue brought up hinrich out of the blue, for some reason... but you just couldn't resist that old standby ridnour lit up "our" PG dig could ya??


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> It's just funny ACE, because I remember the same junk being said around the time it actually happened.
> ...


Arenas, I think you should really be more careful with what you say. Don't start your punk antics with me, please. I watched every single game this season. On top of that, I'm a huge Jamal fan and always have been. I remembered a play incorrectly. I wasn't defending nor slamming Jamal. A simple mistake. Never did I genralize about you or anyone else on this board. Yet, you turn around and pull your usual crap? Way to go.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Go look at babyblue's post, I'm not the first one to mention Hinrich.
> ...


You're right. I usually don't pay too much attention to babyblue's posts, though I'm usually glued to yours   HAHA prettymuch because we don't agree on too much and I like good basketball discussion.

I remember the Seattle game and thanks for posting the vid BTW.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> 
> well i beg your pardon. you are right. i am wrong.
> ...


I explained why I brought it up...

Why do I have the feeling that if JC had been the one that got torched and someone brought it up, even though relavant to the conversation, it would have been ok?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> It's just funny ACE, because I remember the same junk being said around the time it actually happened.
> ...



Thanks Arenas, I had to download realplayer just to watch it but it was worth it and I went ahead and saved it myself. Yeah, I remember all of the people saying he blew a defensive assignment "celebrating" afterwards, hard to do since it was an and1. Plus, I have NEVER seen Jamal blow it on defense because he was celebrating, hell, not even in the EBC!


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> I remember the Seattle game and thanks for posting the vid BTW.


You know we lost by like 20 something, but JC, Curry, and E-Rob played their asses off.

IIRC, Chandler got tossed that game and was in effective anyway.

We lost because they just wouldn't miss any 3's, everything was going in, it was like what can we do?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> 
> *superdave!* :greatjob:
> ...


Jamal has definitley added at least 20lbs of muscle since he entered the league, anyone who saw him his rookie year and last year can verify that with their eyesight.

And I do think your right to an extent. Jamal is probably a little afraid of injuring himself drawing contact. It's understandable given that he doesn'thave a long term deal and already tore his ACl once.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Arenas, I had to download realplayer just to watch it but it was worth it and I went ahead and saved it myself. Yeah, I remember all of the people saying he blew a defensive assignment "celebrating" afterwards, hard to do since it was an and1. Plus, I have NEVER seen Jamal blow it on defense because he was celebrating, hell, not even in the EBC!


No problem...

I do have the Orlando dunk on here as well, I'll get that posted too...

BTW, ACE when JC was in the EBC he was a totally different player. He looked bigger at the time and you could just see he had so much confidence in his game, I didn't see that same confidence a lot this past season.

In flashes yes, but mostly the kid was out there playing not to make a mistake because he would be benched.

I love how much JC gets bashed, but go on any Knicks board and they're praying they get him...

Bulls fans will appreciate JC and his efforts, its just too bad it will take watching him in another uniform to do it.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> You know we lost by like 20 something, but JC, Curry, and E-Rob played their asses off.
> ...


Was that the game Radman torched us as well? I believe, and I could be wrong here, that Seattle ran a high pick and roll (past 3 point line at top of key) with Radman and Ridnour. What stuck out is that they did it a lot closer to half court than the paint. Because it was essentially an iso Ridnour got the step on Kirk a few times, the other times Vlad torched us with threes. That's what I remember.

The thing about Seattles spread offense is that it is extremely 3 pointer heavy. Kinda like Orlando's when Garrity and Armstrong were there or healthy. Its a pretty fluky offense and will get you some wins in the regular season... but come playoff time you need solid half court sets and a low post scorer. Seattle (still) lacks that.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> No problem...
> ...


I'll download that Orlando dunk too, that was off the hizzle. Yeah, I watched every game he played in the EBC (what happened to Curry he played a couple of games and disappeared? Was that where he had the infamous pager accident?) and Jamal definitley played a lot more comfortably and confidently. He made some great passes and played really well, it was interesting seeing him & Telfair on the same team. I really thought JC would bust out this year, at the EBC he looked as impressive as any other NBA'er out there. What I found amusing was that it was after his EBC appearance everyone decided they wanted to label him a "streetballer". Most of those folks don't realize that he ONLY earned his street cred "True Essence" name at the EBC THAT SAME YEAR and hasn't been known as a playground player for the most part.

You know I am in complete agreement with you. I think Crawford will be a very special player and if he isn't on the Bulls I predict a lot of the people who wanted him gone will be the same people whining how stupid Pax was when he blows up on another team. Personally I am still hoping that Pax matches an offer for him and that he blows up on the Bulls next season and plays so well that he becomes one of the cornerstones and we have to move someone else if anyone.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Was that the game Radman torched us as well? I believe, and I could be wrong here, that Seattle ran a high pick and roll (past 3 point line at top of key) with Radman and Ridnour. What stuck out is that they did it a lot closer to half court than the paint. Because it was essentially an iso Ridnour got the step on Kirk a few times, the other times Vlad torched us with threes. That's what I remember.
> ...


I'm too lazy to look up the old boxscore, but IIRC, Allen and Lewis were killing us with 3's...

Radman hit a couple but I actually remember him going a little cold.

We had 3 players that night, they hit like 17 3's, we had no chance.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> What I found amusing was that it was after his EBC appearance everyone decided they wanted to label him a "streetballer". Most of those folks don't realize that he ONLY earned his street cred "True Essence" name at the EBC THAT SAME YEAR and hasn't been known as a playground player for the most part.


What's funny is those same people want Al Harrington and he played in the EBC tournament against JC...

I guess he's a streetball player too.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> What's funny is those same people want Al Harrington and he played in the EBC tournament against JC...
> ...


Yeah, and Mike Dunleavy Jr was there, Theo Ratliff, Smush Parker, Stephon Marbury and a lot of others. Heck, Kobe won MVP a couple of years back so I guess he is a "streetballer" too. I do think a lot of people get the EBC mixed up with the and1 stuff which is a little different. Still. BTW, did you see that they started the 04 EBC tourney? I watched games 1 & 2 on NBA tv alredy and I think they are going to televise 3, 4 & maybe 5 over the weekend. I guess JC isn't playing this year huh?


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> BTW, did you see that they started the 04 EBC tourney? I watched games 1 & 2 on NBA tv alredy and I think they are going to televise 3, 4 & maybe 5 over the weekend. I guess JC isn't playing this year huh?


Ya..

No surprise.

The kid is trying to get paid right now, no time for playing in the EBC.

Plus Jay-Z isn't having a team this year so...

I'm trying to find this video...I know I had it....


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Ya..
> ...


Oh? No S. Carter team this year huh? you know I think they would have smoked the terror squad if everyone had showed up for that final game. I know the blackout messed up a lot of stuff but S. Carter was playing some pimp ball at the time. It would have been a good game at least. If Currry could have played S. Carter would have won hands down IMO.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> You know I am in complete agreement with you. I think Crawford will be a very special player and if he isn't on the Bulls I predict a lot of the people who wanted him gone will be the same people whining how stupid Pax was when he blows up on another team. Personally I am still hoping that Pax matches an offer for him and that he blows up on the Bulls next season and plays so well that he becomes one of the cornerstones and we have to move someone else if anyone.


Something I read interesting ACE is JC a big topic on Knicks boards' all over.

And one poster asked a interesting question, he said basically Bulls fans are idiots...

How is another guy on the Bulls the best player yet they need JC to win all their games?

I think JC has ways to go in his game, but I think his efforts here are not appreciated and maybe they will be by another fan base and New York IMO is a great place for him to go to.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh? No S. Carter team this year huh? you know I think they would have smoked the terror squad if everyone had showed up for that final game. I know the blackout messed up a lot of stuff but S. Carter was playing some pimp ball at the time. It would have been a good game at least. If Currry could have played S. Carter would have won hands down IMO.


If I heard right, I don't think there's a Terror Squad team either...

Fat Joe took issue over last year, he talks about in a line in his new song "Lean Back".


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> If I heard right, I don't think there's a Terror Squad team either...
> ...


I don't listen to Fat Joe, I like rap but I just don't care for Joe. And yeah, there is definitley a terror squad because they played in the second game against family tree (who I have never heard of).


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't listen to Fat Joe, I like rap but I just don't care for Joe. And yeah, there is definitley a terror squad because they played in the second game against family tree (who I have never heard of).


That's cool...

I just remember him talking about it in a bad way because of last year...

Maybe they talked him into doing it or he got over it, who knows lol...


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Ace, you're beginning to scare me with some of your latest responses in this thread.  

Just because you watch EBC or streetball on NBATV doesn't mean you have to act the part....


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Something I read interesting ACE is JC a big topic on Knicks boards' all over.
> ...


Yeah NY really wants JC and so do a lot of other teams. I don't think Bulls fans are "idiots" since I would have to be calling myself an idiot too. I don't live in Chi-town though and I do think there is sort of a blue collar mentality that permeates fans from Chicago. I truly don't think a lot of people in Chicago appreciate a guy like Crawford because they connotate him with some young rap thug or something instead of realizing that he is talented and a very hard worker. Fans from Chicago seem to overanalyze things too. I mean, I can't count the # of people in Chicago I debated about Aretst & Miler with. I felt Artest was well on his way and that Miller had real value. I was rebutted with things like "Artest is a nutcase that can't shoot and will never get any better and Miller is a stiff". Crawford DOES have holes in his game and maybe he is a little lazy eyed like Tim Duncan and doesn't LOOK like he is playing his heart out but I guarantee you he is and once his game matures he is going to be a force IMO.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah NY really wants JC and so do a lot of other teams. I don't think Bulls fans are "idiots" since I would have to be calling myself an idiot too. I don't live in Chi-town though and I do think there is sort of a blue collar mentality that permeates fans from Chicago. I truly don't think a lot of people in Chicago appreciate a guy like Crawford because they connotate him with some young rap thug or something instead of realizing that he is talented and a very hard worker. Fans from Chicago seem to overanalyze things too. I mean, I can't count the # of people in Chicago I debated about Aretst & Miler with. I felt Artest was well on his way and that Miller had real value. I was rebutted with things like "Artest is a nutcase that can't shoot and will never get any better and Miller is a stiff". Crawford DOES have holes in his game and maybe he is a little lazy eyed like Tim Duncan and doesn't LOOK like he is playing his heart out but I guarantee you he is and once his game matures he is going to be a force IMO.


JC's 4-5 years away from his prime and we already know where he's at, the only one who will stop him from getting better is himself.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> Ace, you're beginning to scare me with some of your latest responses in this thread.
> 
> Just because you watch EBC or streetball on NBATV doesn't mean you have to act the part....


what did I say scary? lol Believe it or not my man I was actually raised right next to one of THE worst ghettos in my home city. Granted louisville KY isn't exactly Compton but I have seen people stabbed (and stabbed people myself) and seen people shot and all kinds of stuff. I lived in that ghetto area till I was like 14, had a lot of friends there. Finally I grew up, put myself through college and now am a fairly articulate and educated man. But my roots will always be in the hood. my fiance makes fun of me because whenever I have a thug friend over or something my whole demeanor and the way I speak sort of revert back to my roots! lol!


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> JC's 4-5 years away from his prime and we already know where he's at, the only one who will stop him from getting better is himself.


yeah, and as soon as next year he should be showcasing much better skills.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

just reading this thread it hit me that generally bulls fan from chi. dont like Jc as much as bulls fans outside of chi. 

take from that what you will.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> just reading this thread it hit me that generally bulls fan from chi. dont like Jc as much as bulls fans outside of chi.
> 
> take from that what you will.


I don't know, I think the people on this board represents a pretty small sample.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> Jamal has definitley added at least 20lbs of muscle since he entered the league, anyone who saw him his rookie year and last year can verify that with their eyesight.


Muscle between the ears doesn't count.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> what did I say scary? lol Believe it or not my man I was actually raised right next to one of THE worst ghettos in my home city. Granted louisville KY isn't exactly Compton but I have seen people stabbed (and stabbed people myself) and seen people shot and all kinds of stuff. I lived in that ghetto area till I was like 14, had a lot of friends there. Finally I grew up, put myself through college and now am a fairly articulate and educated man. But my roots will always be in the hood. my fiance makes fun of me because whenever I have a thug friend over or something my whole demeanor and the way I speak sort of revert back to my roots! lol!


Actually people 'in the ghetto' don't talk like that Ace. And if you'd allow me to take it a step further... unless you're a brother, not sure how legit it'd be for a 33 year old dude from Louisville to attempt to boost his cred by talking like that. This is just my opinion Ace, so take it with a grain of salt.

It just sounds weird coming from you that's all. 'Ghetto' slang is fabricated by TV culture and musicians as it is, and I don't put much stock into it. I have not once heard one of my African American friends who had it much tougher than myself growing up ever use the word 'hizzle'. Yet this seems to be the overwhelming association with the young black male. Puh-lease.

If anything its a largely non-black America that has embraced this hip-hop culture and attempted to call it its own... all the while spoiling the original voice and making mainstream what was always meant to be underground. So please pardon me for snickering at your choice of verbiage. I reserve the right 

I digress.

Back to basketball....


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

I have a sister. Does that make me a brother?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't know, I think the people on this board represents a pretty small sample.


i would actually say that most basketball fans in new york would love to have JC and wouldn't think twice about it ,yet if you go by this board which i believe in bulls fans gets to at least to a couple of hundred, i dont think you'd find nearly that kind of support for the player because at least on the internet front the fans have never truly embraced him on the whole, there always seem to be someone else they perferred more and sometimes outright wanted him gone to avoid the competition.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> i would actually say that most basketball fans in new york would love to have JC and wouldn't think twice about it ,yet if you go by this board which i believe in bulls fans gets to at least to a couple of hundred, i dont think you'd find nearly that kind of support for the player because at least on the internet front the fans have never truly embraced him on the whole, there always seem to be someone else they perferred more and sometimes outright wanted him gone to avoid the competition.


I was actually referring to the notion that most Bulls fans don't like JC as much as people in other places. Sure, the grass is always greener for the NY fans and all that, but I'm guessing most Chicago basketball fans want to hang on to JC, for example. Just a guess. I have no proof.


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## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

From what I remember, neither team played much defense in that game. JC, Curry and E-Rob made nearly all their shots in the first half but cooled off in the 2nd. The Sonics jacked up a ton of 3's and made most of them. Also remember TC getting ejected that game...




> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Actually you and Mizenkay are both wrong...
> 
> It was not on a breakaway...
> ...


It wasn't a 'breakout', but Ray did answer that play by making a 3 pointer on the next posession.




> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> Was that the game Radman torched us as well? I believe, and I could be wrong here, that Seattle ran a high pick and roll (past 3 point line at top of key) with Radman and Ridnour. What stuck out is that they did it a lot closer to half court than the paint. Because it was essentially an iso Ridnour got the step on Kirk a few times, the other times Vlad torched us with threes. That's what I remember.


We did that in the 4th quarter. Ridnour was able to get past Kirk for a couple of layups, the other times he kicked it to Radman for jumpers. I think Hinrich was hitting the rookie wall around then, so he was probably a step or two slower than normal on D.

My :twocents:.


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## remlover (Jan 22, 2004)

I think a point was brought up depending JC's average of 4.1 FT attempted per game. Let's not forget that JC would always shoot the teams Technical FT. Think of all the time teams got Defensive 3-seconds, JC was shooting the FT. 

JC imo had a streaky year. Did some great things, and did some bad things. His whole season reminded me of Ron Mercer's season (they were the same age when Mercer was scoring 20ppg for the bulls). No one else to score, so let me do it. 

JC doesnt need to bulk up anymore. He needs to be more aggressive on defense..fight through screens *instead of constantly going under them*, move his feet, dont go for the steal and swipe at the ball, move your feet and get in position to take a charge!!

I would gladly pay Jamal the MLE. But let's not sugarcoat jamal's game and act like he is a finished product by any means.

He has big holes in his game and for some posters to be so sensitive if someone criticizes Jamal its very humorous.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>remlover</b>!
> I think a point was brought up depending JC's average of 4.1 FT attempted per game. Let's not forget that JC would always shoot the teams Technical FT. Think of all the time teams got Defensive 3-seconds, JC was shooting the FT.
> 
> JC imo had a streaky year. Did some great things, and did some bad things. His whole season reminded me of Ron Mercer's season (they were the same age when Mercer was scoring 20ppg for the bulls). No one else to score, so let me do it.
> ...


everyone knows Jc has holes in his game , but by the same token i just did a count of the threads about bulls players in particular of which there are 9 currently, 7 are about JC(1 for gordon 1 for kirk) and on the whole its not about complimenting his game , for the most part its people going on about the holes in his game forgetting he is the best player on the team and to even his most ardent critics he is the 2nd best .

if he has holes everyone else's are filles with ditches , to me its not that he has critics its the amount critism and the fevor it which it comes at him , its just unfair.

he's not finished but if we are going on production if JC is getting the MLE what should eddy curry be worth when he has done less , shown less of an ability to do the dirty work on defense and has had worse work habits than anyone on the roster...but there are no threads about him , and thats why the scorn JC gets is quite unfair with any percieved crimes against basketball people are accusing him of.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>remlover</b>!
> I think a point was brought up depending JC's average of 4.1 FT attempted per game. Let's not forget that JC would always shoot the teams Technical FT. Think of all the time teams got Defensive 3-seconds, JC was shooting the FT.
> 
> JC imo had a streaky year. Did some great things, and did some bad things. His whole season reminded me of Ron Mercer's season (they were the same age when Mercer was scoring 20ppg for the bulls). No one else to score, so let me do it.
> ...


everyone knows Jc has holes in his game , but by the same token i just did a count of the threads about bulls players in particular of which there are 9 currently, 7 are about JC(1 for gordon 1 for kirk) and on the whole its not about complimenting his game , for the most part its people going on about the holes in his game forgetting he is the best player on the team and to even his most ardent critics he is the 2nd best .

if he has holes everyone else's are filles with ditches , to me its not that he has critics its the amount critism and the fevor it which it comes at him , its just unfair.

he's not finished but if we are going on production if JC is getting the MLE what should eddy curry be worth when he has done less , shown less of an ability to do the dirty work on defense and has had worse work habits than anyone on the roster...but there are no threads about him , and thats why the scorn JC gets is quite unfair with any percieved crimes against basketball people are accusing him of.


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## remlover (Jan 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> everyone knows Jc has holes in his game , but by the same token i just did a count of the threads about bulls players in particular of which there are 9 currently, 7 are about JC(1 for gordon 1 for kirk) and on the whole its not about complimenting his game , for the most part its people going on about the holes in his game forgetting he is the best player on the team and to even his most ardent critics he is the 2nd best .
> ...


I think everyone, including JC's harshest critics (which i was during the season) know he has skills and potential. I think the reservations people have is getting JC @ the right price. i would sign him to a 6-40million deal. 

I think this time next year there will be TONS of threads about how Curry is onlyi worth X-amount of dollars while he is seeking a near-max contract. Trust me, come contract time Eddy will be dragged through the mud a whole lot.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>remlover</b>!
> 
> 
> I think everyone, including JC's harshest critics (which i was during the season) know he has skills and potential. I think the reservations people have is getting JC @ the right price. i would sign him to a 6-40million deal.
> ...


you say that like this is the only time JC has gotten dragged through the mud , i think he gets dragged through it more often than not throughout his career , i dont what it is about him that rubs so many people the wrong way. 

1st it was because he came into the league at 19 and he simply wasn't ready (big deal i believe deng did the same thing ....TC and eddy also by the way)

then he tears his knee up at hoop the gym. (ok this is one is legitamite but it was 3 years ago at some point i would expect people to let it go.)

3rd Jay will came and apparently crawfford went home to work out instead of in chitown , i look at the end result of that season and say JC was right to go because he won the starting job from williams and it was the time most bulls fans since 98 were actually optimistic about the future.

then of course its that in year 4 after being installed at the 2 he either shoots too much or shoots poor shots (although those shots were the same as he was shooting at the end of 2002-03 season) even then the bulls were the worst scoring team in the league because there was no one else who stepped up on the offensive side and made the bulls a winner ...until of course eddy decided to sparadically show up in the latter half of the season.

and now its because it his contract time, so what? and he hasn't actually said a word outside of the bulls are his 1st choice and that he likes IT

i dont see this as a trend that is ever going to change , i see the thought of Jc doing anything at all changes otherwise calm content, intelligent posters into ...well for lack of a better word, haters, who simply see everything the kid does with disdain and wish he was gone , but dont him to go for nothing because somewhere in their mind they still know he is a player despite what they write about him.


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