# Rosen: Kobe 4th best SG of All-Time



## Brian34Cook (Mar 26, 2003)

Rosen: Kobe 4th best All-Time SG

The job descriptions of role players cover every aspect of the game — from setting screens to boxing out, from making the pass that leads to an assist pass to filling a lane on a fast break, and so on. But every offensive set is designed to get the ball into the hands of a player whose expertise is to fill the basket.

By definition, then, shooting guards have to be able to shoot. Close behind this requirement is the ability to create their own shots. Also critical is knowing how to use screens, differentiating between good shots and bad ones, and executing plays with precision.

Being able to play acceptable defense is another necessary. What advantage would be gained by his team should a shooting guard register 25 points while his opposite number scored 25 or more?









Michael Jordan tops his list.

No. 1 — MICHAEL JORDAN
No. 2 — BILL SHARMAN
No. 3 — SAM JONES
No. 4 — KOBE BRYANT
*For sheer talent, only MJ can outshine Kobe Bryant. Still only 26 years old, Kobe excels at nearly every aspect of the game — creativity, shooting (especially with a game on the line), rebounding, passing, defense, rebounding, and competing. His only deficiency is his rampant narcissism, a character flaw that has had serious on- and off-court consequences.

Should Kobe ever mature to the point where he can play (and live) with an abiding sense of discipline, he might conceivably challenge Jordan for the top of the heap.*

[More in URL]

Discuss because I know how much you all love Rosen :banana:

J/K!!


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Ehh. Kobe might be a top 5 shooting guard of all time, but the difference between Jordan and Kobe isn't about attitude or leadership at all, it's about talent. I actually think Jordan had a lot of the same problems Kobe has with selfishness and all that, it's just that Jordan was so good that it was easy to overlook. Jordan was lucky to have such a great player like Scottie Pippen who was willing to defer, because if Pippen had the ego to match his talent, Jordan's legacy would be drastically different. Stroke of luck for Jordan, in my opinion.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Bill Sharman and Sam Jones? Jesus Rosen, just kick the bucket already.

I would have had Drexler as the 2nd best SG of all time, not sure how you can overlook him to the point where you rank him 6th. And then of course, where the hell is Jerry West? Does Rosen consider him a point guard?


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

As usual, Rosen likes to remind us that he coached back in the 1800's and throws out some ludicrous names in the article. 



EHL said:


> I would have had Drexler as the 2nd best SG of all time, not sure how you can overlook him to the point where you rank him 6th. And then of course, where the hell is Jerry West? Does Rosen consider him a point guard?


Surely Kobe and Jordan both deserve to be ahead of Drexler? Drexler was never able to maintain his peak for the duration Jordan did and Kobe already has. I would put Maravich and Baylor ahead of him as well.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Ehh. Kobe might be a top 5 shooting guard of all time, but the difference between Jordan and Kobe isn't about attitude or leadership at all, it's about talent. I actually think Jordan had a lot of the same problems Kobe has with selfishness and all that, it's just that Jordan was so good that it was easy to overlook. Jordan was lucky to have such a great player like Scottie Pippen who was willing to defer, because if Pippen had the ego to match his talent, Jordan's legacy would be drastically different. Stroke of luck for Jordan, in my opinion.



Good point :yes:


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> Surely Kobe and Jordan both deserve to be ahead of Drexler? Drexler was never able to maintain his peak for the duration Jordan did and Kobe already has. I would put Maravich and Baylor ahead of him as well.


Well, he did average 23/6/6 for over a decade, that's pretty damn good longevity. Kobe's career isn't over, but yeah, I'd probably put Kobe ahead of him in a couple more years.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

23/6/6 over a decade is mildly stretching the truth.


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## lafever8 (Jun 26, 2005)

whos sam jones?


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## sic_D (May 5, 2005)

Brian34Cook said:


> Should Kobe ever mature to the point where he can play (and live) with an abiding sense of discipline, he might conceivably challenge Jordan for the top of the heap.


LMAO


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Ehh. Kobe might be a top 5 shooting guard of all time, but the difference between Jordan and Kobe isn't about attitude or leadership at all, it's about talent. I actually think Jordan had a lot of the same problems Kobe has with selfishness and all that, it's just that Jordan was so good that it was easy to overlook. Jordan was lucky to have such a great player like Scottie Pippen who was willing to defer, because if Pippen had the ego to match his talent, Jordan's legacy would be drastically different. Stroke of luck for Jordan, in my opinion.


You were all in my mind with this comment! I've always believed since seeing Kobe in 96' he had the ability to overtake Jordan as the greatest sg of all-time, but his marketability, drive, discipline and character would ultimately be the determining factor in measuring how far he can go.


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## JYD (Sep 3, 2002)

hey Kobe's only 26 and he's going into his 10th season.


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

Thats the thing, 

Kobe had (by far) his best season three years ago. That was in year 7.

He was phenomenal.

He of course ran into the trial and last season held injury and learning to adapt to being the focus on every possession.

With 10 years behind him, he has 10 years logged on those legs, joints and feet.

No matter if you are 26 or 36 by the time 10 years rolls around... it takes its toll.

While I fully expect Bryant to challenge his best season this year, the amount of time logged thus far isn't necessarily a good thing.

He may be only 26... but he has played the min of a 30 year old.


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

Very true, Kobe may be 27, but he's an old 27. 10 years of wear and tear + 100 playoff games do damage to your body. Though Kobe is still explosive, I dont see that explosiveness and reckless abandon of him driving to the lane he once had which is a good thing cause he doesn't get injured too often.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> As usual, Rosen likes to remind us that he coached back in the 1800's and throws out some ludicrous names in the article.
> 
> 
> 
> Surely Kobe and Jordan both deserve to be ahead of Drexler? Drexler was never able to maintain his peak for the duration Jordan did and Kobe already has. I would put Maravich and Baylor ahead of him as well.


Pistol was a PG and Baylor a SF/PF.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> Pistol was a PG and Baylor a SF/PF.


 Pistol also was never as good in the NBA as he was in college. His NBA career gets a bit overplayed since his death


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

yall are talkin about Kobe like's he's an old man, does he play like an old man? He's still the best of the best. Players games mature so the flash doesn't always have to be there like it was when he was younger, but it's still there. Everyone saw the dunk on Dwight Howard last year.... he's still got it!


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## H.O.V.A. (Jul 13, 2005)

HallOfFamer said:


> Very true, Kobe may be 27, but he's an old 27. 10 years of wear and tear + 100 playoff games do damage to your body. Though Kobe is still explosive, I dont see that explosiveness and reckless abandon of him driving to the lane he once had which is a good thing cause he doesn't get injured too often.


Exactly. His explosiveness has diminished considerably, but thats understandable. He's just going to have to rely on his J much more.


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## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

lafever8 said:


> whos sam jones?




http://www.nba.com/history/players/sjones_summary.html

Honors: Elected to Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame (1984); All-NBA Second Team (1965, 1966, 1967); NBA 25th Anniversary All-Time Team (1970); One of the 50 Greatest Players in NBA History (1996); Member of NBA championship team (1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1968, 1969)


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Wow, I'm suprised that Charley Rosen wrote that. When it comes down to basketball X's and O's, hes imo, the best sportswriter because he actually talks about the game, I usually just can't get over his bias against certain players. I can't see why Sam Jones or Bill Sharman are put over him, but then again, I've never seen him play, but I thought that his actual comments were uncharacteristic of what he usually writes when it comes down to Kobe.


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## chula vista blazer (Jul 13, 2005)

I wouldn't rank Kobe as the 4th best shooting guard today. Okay, maybe he'd make number 4 on individual ability, but if I was selecting a shooting guard today for my team I'd prefer--- Tracy McGrady, Ginobli, Joe Johnson, Dwayne Wade and perhaps Larry Hughes.

Kobe has the skills to be the best, but is sadly lacking in character. A team would be better off with any of the above as far as real team impact.


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

chula vista blazer said:


> I wouldn't rank Kobe as the 4th best shooting guard today. Okay, maybe he'd make number 4 on individual ability, but if I was selecting a shooting guard today for my team I'd prefer--- Tracy McGrady, Ginobli, Joe Johnson, Dwayne Wade and perhaps Larry Hughes.
> 
> Kobe has the skills to be the best, but is sadly lacking in character. A team would be better off with any of the above as far as real team impact.


TMac and Wade you can make a case for. But Johnson, Hughes, and Manu? No way would any GM in the league even think about picking them over Kobe. Dont get me wrong, they're pretty good players, but they aren't nearly on the same level of Kobe as a player or in terms of impact.


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## byrondarnell66 (Jul 18, 2004)

chula vista blazer said:


> I wouldn't rank Kobe as the 4th best shooting guard today. Okay, maybe he'd make number 4 on individual ability, but if I was selecting a shooting guard today for my team I'd prefer--- Tracy McGrady, Ginobli, Joe Johnson, Dwayne Wade and perhaps Larry Hughes.
> 
> Kobe has the skills to be the best, but is sadly lacking in character. A team would be better off with any of the above as far as real team impact.


Larry Hughes a team impact player ?? a guy who faught with Arenas for shots last year. No where even close to Kobe.

Ginobili and Johnson ? you got to be kidding.

D-Wade maybe in a couple of years.

T-Mac can be a good arguement.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

chula vista blazer said:


> I wouldn't rank Kobe as the 4th best shooting guard today. Okay, maybe he'd make number 4 on individual ability, but if I was selecting a shooting guard today for my team I'd prefer--- Tracy McGrady, Ginobli, Joe Johnson, Dwayne Wade and perhaps Larry Hughes.
> 
> Kobe has the skills to be the best, but is sadly lacking in character. A team would be better off with any of the above as far as real team impact.


This is quite possibly the worst post ever.


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## chula vista blazer (Jul 13, 2005)

I honestly think you're all living in the past when it comes to Kobe. His defense wasn't good last year and he didn't make the players around him any better.

You really have to consider character when it comes to Kobe. 

I may be overstating my case by including Ginobli and Joe Johnson, but I think what Detroit has proven is that it's more important to have a really good team player than a superstar who is selfish in a team destructive sense.

We're not playin one on one basketball.


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

I think we will see a phenomenal year from Kobe this year.

I think that the things that have gotten him into trouble... chasing the ball... overdribbling... trying to over-manufacture shots... outside shooting in poor situations... getting caught in mid air while passing... 

All those things should be lessened with Phil's system and how Phil plans to use other players.

Allows Kobe to go back to concentrating on being primarily a scoring threat rather than a initiator of the offense, main distributor AND scoring threat...

Kobe coming off screens and in the post spells doom for the leauge.

I think we see the FG% jump to the high 40s and the trips to the line to increase. We may see a slight drop in assists and boards, but the TO's will be way down and his efficancy should markedly improve.

Im kind of looking forward to it.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

chula vista blazer said:


> I honestly think you're all living in the past when it comes to Kobe. His defense wasn't good last year and he didn't make the players around him any better.


The Lakers were 19-15 when Kobe went down last year, which averages out to about 45 wins over 82 games. While he was out, the Lakers changed coaches, systems and lost a month of their best player. Hard to judge them after that point. Before last year, Kobe was the co-leader of three title 
teams and had never been on a team below .500. I'd say his impact is pretty good, whether past, present or future.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

H.O.V.A. said:


> Exactly. His explosiveness has diminished considerably, but thats understandable. He's just going to have to rely on his J much more.


 i think you're overstating it a bit


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## JYD (Sep 3, 2002)

chula vista blazer said:


> I wouldn't rank Kobe as the 4th best shooting guard today. Okay, maybe he'd make number 4 on individual ability, but if I was selecting a shooting guard today for my team I'd prefer--- Tracy McGrady, Ginobli, Joe Johnson, Dwayne Wade and perhaps Larry Hughes.
> 
> Kobe has the skills to be the best, but is sadly lacking in character. A team would be better off with any of the above as far as real team impact.


LMAO


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

I'd never take Hughes, Manu, or JJ over Kobe. They're just not as talented. I think people forget about Kobe's good years and base their judgements on this year. It's not easy. I think Kobe is better than T-Mac. T-Mac kinda shies away from contact while Kobe will almost always get fouled. They are not very far apart in three point shooting also. T-Mac hasn't had much success either. He's never made it through the 1st round, even with Yao. Wade is just too one dimensional to be better than Kobe. He has a shaky jumpshot, so all he can do is drive, plus, Kobe is longer, which makes him a better defender. He can jump higher too. Kobe's the best SG in the league today.


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## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

Brian34Cook said:


> For sheer talent, only MJ can outshine Kobe Bryant. Still only 26 years old, Kobe excels at nearly every aspect of the game — creativity, shooting (especially with a game on the line), *rebounding,* passing, defense, *rebounding,* and competing.


haha, he's so good Charlie Rosum said _rebounding_ twice. :bsmile:


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## gumpware (May 20, 2003)

chula vista blazer said:


> I wouldn't rank Kobe as the 4th best shooting guard today. Okay, maybe he'd make number 4 on individual ability, but if I was selecting a shooting guard today for my team I'd prefer--- Tracy McGrady, Ginobli, Joe Johnson, Dwayne Wade and perhaps Larry Hughes.
> 
> Kobe has the skills to be the best, but is sadly lacking in character. A team would be better off with any of the above as far as real team impact.


One can argue for McGrady, but the rest? They all had career years last year, and Kobe, despite his numbers, was perceived to have one of his worst years due to the Lakers' poor record. Sounds like you've been paying too much attention to BSPN writers.


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

LamarButler said:


> T-Mac kinda shies away from contact while Kobe will almost always get fouled. .


I would have agreed with that initially in the year. But Kobe REALLY started becoming dependant on the outside jumper down the stretch. Tmac could certainly improve his game as well. He isn't as complete as Kobe is.



LamarButler said:


> Wade is just too one dimensional to be better than Kobe. He has a shaky jumpshot, so all he can do is drive, plus, Kobe is longer, which makes him a better defender. .


Don't agree with this. Wade was (and no I am not over-stating it) a better defender last season than Kobe. 

While taller, Kobe isn't necessarily 'longer' than Wade who has an unbelievable reach. Those arms go for days, and the lower center of gravity also has its advantages. Wade was simply OUTSTANDING at weak side shot blocking and shooting the passing lanes. 

As for the jump shooting, people look at the percentages from the three (Kobe: 34%, Wade 29%) and just say "Wade can't shoot".

Wade was actually pretty outstanding and consistent with his mid range game down the stretch. Teams played him for the drive and his FG% dipped a bit overall accordingly. However, the jump shot was still solid. He didn't simply "just drive the ball everytime".

As to the long range game, the fact that he DIDN'T rely on them was a big reason for his efficiancy. He was consistently putting pressure on the other team's defense and making them pay.

His 29% shooting from the arc is off set by the fact that he only shot 98 of them. Compare that to Kobe's 387. 

I actually thought that Kobe's reliance on the 3 pointer (especially early in the shot clock) was one of the more questionable aspects of his game last year.

Suffice to say, both were outstanding last year. I think that Wade had the better season of the two. However, that is offset with the knowledge that he played next to Shaq who opens up large lanes and demands attention.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

IV said:


> 23/6/6 over a decade is mildly stretching the truth.


No it isn't. Add the numbers yourself.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

chula vista blazer said:


> You really have to consider character when it comes to Kobe.
> 
> We're not playin one on one basketball.


wow.... novel concept... one of the best playmaking SG in the past 10 years plys one on one...

and we all know that Kobe is an *******... i mean he was really really mean to Shaq


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

I still don't get the "Kobe's a great 1on1 player, not a teammate". It's almost as if it was sheer luck the guy won 3 championships and went to 4 Finals.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

EHL said:


> I still don't get the "Kobe's a great 1on1 player, not a teammate". It's almost as if it was sheer luck the guy won 3 championships and went to 4 Finals.


Apparently if you look at any season before this last one, you're living in the past. This past season is the *only* one that counts.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

chula vista blazer said:


> I wouldn't rank Kobe as the 4th best shooting guard today. Okay, maybe he'd make number 4 on individual ability, but if I was selecting a shooting guard today for my team I'd prefer--- Tracy McGrady, Ginobli, Joe Johnson, Dwayne Wade and perhaps Larry Hughes.
> 
> Kobe has the skills to be the best, but is sadly lacking in character. A team would be better off with any of the above as far as real team impact.


Chula Vista has a point. I'd rather have Ginobili or Wade.

But certainly not Hughes.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

EHL said:


> No it isn't. Add the numbers yourself.



Okay I'm sorry, can we still be friends? :gopray:


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## clien (Jun 2, 2005)

Truth34 said:


> Chula Vista has a point. I'd rather have Ginobili or Wade.
> 
> But certainly not Hughes.


reeeeally  , i personally would take kobe over any sg in the league, the only sg on the same level as kobe imo is tmac and thats it


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

Truth34 said:


> Chula Vista has a point. I'd rather have Ginobili or Wade.
> 
> But certainly not Hughes.


 only if I get Duncan and Shaq...and Pop as my coach...and even then you can keep em


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Truth34 said:


> Chula Vista has a point.


No he doesn't, and you certainly don't either.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

OK, I don't have a point. How does that Kobe Kool-Aid taste, EHL.

I mean, I'm on a board with people who don't know who Sam Jones is. 

That's like somebody having a discussion about centers and asking, "Who is George Mikan?"

It's funny, when Kobe had Shaq, you guys act like it was Kobe doing the work. Now that you're a lottery team, and Kobe is off the All-Defensive team and not even close to MVP consideration, Duncan is the reason Ginobili tore up the playoffs and Shaq is the reason Wade is already being mentioned as one of the top 3 SGs in the game.

You are in denial. Good thing Kwame and Bynum are bringing the Lakers back to prominence, though. Right?


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> It's funny, when Kobe had Shaq, you guys act like it was Kobe doing the work.


No, not really. 



> Now that you're a lottery team, and Kobe is off the All-Defensive team and not even close to MVP consideration, Duncan is the reason Ginobili tore up the playoffs and Shaq is the reason Wade is already being mentioned as one of the top 3 SGs in the game.


Again, not really.

If we wanted to hear double talk justifications we'd ask for your opinion. As is, no one wants it. 



> You are in denial. Good thing Kwame and Bynum are bringing the Lakers back to prominence, though. Right?


Yeah, and probably well before the Celtics.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

EHL said:


> Yeah, and probably well before the Celtics.


That was cold, EHL... :biggrin:


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

Truth34 said:


> OK, I don't have a point. How does that Kobe Kool-Aid taste, EHL.
> 
> I mean, I'm on a board with people who don't know who Sam Jones is.
> 
> ...


Like LamarButler said on another thread, "It's kinda hard when you're only 27, but you've played for nine seasons, four Finals, lots of playoffs, playing nearly the whole game most of the time. He can't afford to do everything for the team. I'm not saying he'd be beat because he's slow, it's cause he does so much work. Kobe is a human..."

*edit*


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

Wade emerged last year. That isn't homerism either. You can search my posts and find me talking about how Wade is better than Carmelo.

this is back in the day when some people considered melo better than Bron


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