# Jermaine O'Neal-Superstar or not?



## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_4810.shtml

This is an interesting read, it is two people arguing whether or not Jermaine is a superstar by todays standards, I say he is.


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## Mr. Taylor (Aug 6, 2003)

Jermaine got the production, the recognition, and the cash. He's definantly a superstar.
No matter how good you are, if you dont have the mass appeal you're not gonna be a superstar (see: Dantley, Adrian). Jermaine O'Neal has the appeal :yes:
Jermaine O'Neal is a superstar :yes:
Anyone who says he's not is a :dead:


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Jermaine is definetly a superstar.

_"You must dominate and be one of the very few best at your position to be a superstar. You must have stats (sorry, but there has to be something tangible to argue) that are among the league leaders."_

Well Power Forward is the most stacked position in the NBA, he is not one of the "few" superstars at that position, because theres so many, but he is the BEST big man in the East and if you look at the stats and watch how he can take over a game easily, you'd agree hes a superstar.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> Jermaine got the production, the recognition, and the cash. He's definantly a superstar.
> No matter how good you are, if you dont have the mass appeal you're not gonna be a superstar (see: Dantley, Adrian). Jermaine O'Neal has the appeal
> Jermaine O'Neal is a superstar
> Anyone who says he's not is a


 agreed






> Jermaine is definetly a superstar.
> 
> "You must dominate and be one of the very few best at your position to be a superstar. You must have stats (sorry, but there has to be something tangible to argue) that are among the league leaders."
> 
> Well Power Forward is the most stacked position in the NBA, he is not one of the "few" superstars at that position, because theres so many, but he is the BEST big man in the East and if you look at the stats and watch how he can take over a game easily, you'd agree hes a superstar


 agreed

Jermaine is not at KG, Kobe, or T-Mac calibur yet but he's still a superstar for the reason's hellbot stated


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

Jermaine is a super star. He is the best big man in the east, he's played in the all-star game, and for the national team. If he wins a title or gets more out of state recognition, he will be on KG and TMac's level.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Superstars win in this league. Do you think that Jermaine can lead the Pacers to the Finals this year? I am skeptical that he will win you a championship, but I don't question his superstar status.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

TMac and Garnett don't win in this league.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Wow, a thread where everibody agrees!....

Well, i have my doubts about O'Neal... :| 

I mean, i read the article in Hoopsworld.com, and i tended to agree with BOTH sides. How is that possible? Well...

I think that depends on the notion of "superstar". 
O'Neal is loaded with talent.
He's the go-to guy on a team also loaded with talent, but keeps underachieving (IMO). 
He's not one of the best 3 PF in the game (Webber, Duncan and KG), although, IMO, he's better than Brand, Wallace, Gasol...
He's averaged close to 20/10 in the past couple of years.
He is NOT top-ten in the NBA.

He's he a superstar, then?
I don't know... I would say he isn't, for the term "superstar" should apply to those player who are head-and-shoulders above the rest, and i don't think O'Neal is...

As an example:
Remeber Brad Daugherty, the Center for the late-80's/early 90's Cavs?
He averaged, for his career, 19.0/9.5/3.7 and was considered the best passing center in the League.
Was a considered a superstar? No, because even though he was a great player, he wasn't one of the best (Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq).

O'Neal has lots of upside, even now... He will improve. If he can take his team far, THEN, i would say, without a doubt, he's a superstar.


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

no i dont see him as a superstar yet. In order for him to be a superstar he has to be able to carry the team, granted Jermaine hasnt really been put in such a position but he hasnt proved this. I mean 2 years ago vs NJ in game 5, he just choked, Kmart just stripped the ball from him in a big spot.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

And he missed both free throws in the last seconds of some game, but now he's better.


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## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

*Jermaine*

Jermaine is a superstar.

Since when do you have to win a ring to be a superstar?
example: Karl Malone, Patrick Ewing.


Jermaine has more all around game than anyone downlow besides Garnett, Duncan. I put him in the top 3 low posts in the league. 

Jermaine is here because of work. All his life he has hit bumps in the road. He worked his *** off upon leaving Portland, and look at him now. He would also woop the majority of the players in the league physically. You can't handle him!


Let me shout out to Jermaine! Ill be seeing him in MSG against Rico next friday. 

Holla


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

Until someone comes up with a rock solid definition for the label 'superstar', this is a pointless argument. Is it a top-10 player? Is it someone who single-handedly carries his team on his back through the season? Is it someone who you have total faith in with the ball in their hands at the end of a tie game? Is it someone with a market value at the max contract level? It's probably a combination of some of those things with others that I didn't mention, but until someone decides for sure it's a wasteful debate.


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## texan (Jul 10, 2003)

jermaine is a top ten or 11 player, top 5 at his position and is definitly a superstar


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## DetBNyce (Jul 23, 2002)

Seeing that it's hard to be considered a superstar in the league by my standards I don't think he is one quite yet, but if he can step it up like I think he can and will this year then I would put him in that class.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> Seeing that it's hard to be considered a superstar in the league by my standards I don't think he is one quite yet, but if he can step it up like I think he can and will this year then I would put him in that class.


My standards are biased, and i admit to that...
I watched NBA in the 80's and, IMO, there were only THREE superstars: Magic, Bird and Jordan.
Maybe my criteria is too high.
I could be wrong...
But i just can considerer someone who clearly is not one of the top-ten in basketball a "superstar".


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

He is top 15 in the league = Superstar


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Until someone comes up with a rock solid definition for the label 'superstar', this is a pointless argument. Is it a top-10 player? Is it someone who single-handedly carries his team on his back through the season? Is it someone who you have total faith in with the ball in their hands at the end of a tie game? Is it someone with a market value at the max contract level? It's probably a combination of some of those things with others that I didn't mention, but until someone decides for sure it's a wasteful debate.


That's true but you still get to hear everybody's opinion.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

I tend to think that the term superstar is overused in sports, and especially in basketball. I probably have a higher standard for what a superstar has to be than most, and by my criteria, JO falls short.

To me, a superstar is someone who is undeniably the best at his position and one of the top players in the NBA, who can consistently dominate games, and make their teammates much better. And, maybe most importantly, demonstrate the ability to do this for an extended period of time. As in several years. And I also believe that there are almost never more than 5 or 6 superstars in a league at one time. To me, the only superstars are Shaq, Kobe, Tmac, Duncan, KG, and Kidd. And I would say Kidd is debateable.

Notice that I didn't even put players like Dirk, CWebb, Pierce, or AI on the list. I think Jermaine O'Neal is great, but he isn't a superstar. Atleast not yet.


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## jreywind (May 30, 2003)

When TMac signed his max deal he wasn't even close to where JO is now, and he is definately a superstar. I see this year as the year JO just absolutely takes over. I could seriously see him getting 22 and 12 and 2-3blck this year. If he just works on passing out of the double team a little more, or attacking the d before the double will get there he will have a lot of games where he is virtually unstoppable.


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## Jermaniac Fan (Jul 27, 2003)

*SuperstarJermaniac*

If Somebody is asking is Jermaine superstar I Answer "Yeah, he have Double Double average(20,8ppg 10,3rpg) If that doesn't mean JO is superstar then nobody is!"


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

he's a superstar


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## TLR (May 28, 2003)

Some people say he is "clearly not a top 10 player." Name me 10 people that are clearly cut ahead of him in this game. It can be your opinion he is not a top 10 player, but IMO he is.


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## The lone wolf (Jul 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rosenthall</b>!
> I tend to think that the term superstar is overused in sports, and especially in basketball. I probably have a higher standard for what a superstar has to be than most, and by my criteria, JO falls short.
> 
> To me, a superstar is someone who is undeniably the best at his position and one of the top players in the NBA, who can consistently dominate games, and make their teammates much better. And, maybe most importantly, demonstrate the ability to do this for an extended period of time. As in several years. And I also believe that there are almost never more than 5 or 6 superstars in a league at one time. To me, the only superstars are Shaq, Kobe, Tmac, Duncan, KG, and Kidd. And I would say Kidd is debateable.
> ...



I agree. IMO superstars are the guys who can make it to the ALL-NBA first team with little bit consistency (atleast 2 years or so). These are the Superstars. the rest of the guys are just stars not superstars and that's why they are in the all-star team. JO as yet is a star not a superstar. Maybe in a few years he'll be one but NOT YET.


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## dhook54 (Aug 7, 2003)

Charisma and mass appeal, plays a part. T-Mac and Kobe are even, talent-wise and in terms of production, but. Kobe has greater mass appeal. [except for those who don't like him cause he doesn't ACT like a thug]


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

I say he is a superstar, but of course people could argue about him playing in the East, all I have to say is, look at his playoff averages this year. 24 ppg, 17 rpg.


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## Jermaniac Fan (Jul 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TicN9neZ8</b>!
> look at his playoff averages this year. 24 ppg, 17 rpg.


WAU! I didn't know, thoose are great numbers!:yes:


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

I guess people put the best 3 at each position a superstar so I guess it comes out like this.

Stephon Marbury
Jason Kidd
Gary Payton
Kobe Bryant
Tracy Mcgrady
Allen Iverson
Shawn Marion
Dirk Notwitzki
Jamal Mashburn
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Elton Brand harder in my opinion.
Shaq
Ben Wallace
Yao Ming

By my standards the Superstars are


Mcgrady
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Shaquille Oneal 

The superstars are the best in the game.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

> Some people say he is "clearly not a top 10 player." Name me 10 people that are clearly cut ahead of him in this game. It can be your opinion he is not a top 10 player, but IMO he is


Tim Duncan
Shaq
Kevin Garnett
Tracy Mcgrady
Kobe Bryant
Jason Kidd
Dirk Notwitzki
Allen Iverson
Paul Pierce
Shawn Marion
Chris Webber
Ray Allen
Jalen Rose
Gary Payton 
Stephon Marbury
Michael Jordan
Elton Brand
Baron Davis
Steve Francis
Vince Carter
Jamal Mashburn
Latrell Spreewell
Ben Wallace
Eddie Jones
Ricky Davis
Richard Hamilton
Rasheed Wallace
Yao Ming
Steve Nash
Michael Finley
John Stockton
Karl Malone
Rashard Lewis



Lets give a hand to the 34th best player in the NBA last year. In my opinion he is overrated and should have led teh Pacers to the Finals since they had such a good team.


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> 
> 
> Tim Duncan-Agreed
> ...


34th best player? He made the All-Star team and don't give me the crap about how he plays in the East. I don't think he is a top 10 player but he is still a top player in the league.


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## TLR (May 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> 
> 
> Tim Duncan
> ...


Didn't I say IMO he is a top 10 player? Just because you say those guys are better than him does not make them better. Here is my list. This is my opinion.

*Duncan 
McGrady
Garnett
Kobe
Shaq
Kidd 
Pierce
Marbury
Iverson 
Jermaine*


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TLR</b>!
> 
> 
> Didn't I say IMO he is a top 10 player? Just because you say those guys are better than him does not make them better. Here is my list. This is my opinion.
> ...


I would have to put at least Nowitzki and Webber above Jermaine.
Being an All-star means little since the East has no talented big men.
Jermaine is an up and coming player, though, and maybe this is his year to blow up.

IMO, he has not YET reached the plateau of superstardom...


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## TLR (May 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> I would have to put at least Nowitzki and Webber above Jermaine.
> ...



I put him ahead of Webber because he doesn't get injured nearly as often and ahead of Dirk because he is better at everything than Dirk except shooting. And I'd rather have the unstoppable power forward on the inside grabbing all kinds of rebounds and blocking shots than the unstoppable power forward shooting three's. That's just my opinion.


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## TLR (May 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> 
> 
> Tim Duncan
> ...


Did I mention that list is ridiculous and I do not believe you have watched Jermaine play since he was in Portland?


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TLR</b>!
> 
> 
> Did I mention that list is ridiculous and I do not believe you have watched Jermaine play since he was in Portland?


that is exactly what I was thinking when I saw that he had Yao Ming and Rashard Lewis as better then Jermaine O'Neal.


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## Xavier8 (Jun 13, 2003)

Wow, that list was rediculous. IMO JO is about 12th-10th in the list.


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Xavier8</b>!
> Wow, that list was rediculous. IMO JO is about 12th-10th in the list.


I'd say it would be more fair to compare him to people at his position because it is hard to say a PG is better then a PF because they have a different array of skills from each other.


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## Xavier8 (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TicN9neZ8</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd say it would be more fair to compare him to people at his position because it is hard to say a PG is better then a PF because they have a different array of skills from each other.


Thats very true, somthing to think about.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

These are the only players, that are better than Jermaine O'Neal.

Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Tracy McGrady
Shaquille O'Neal
Dirk Nowitzki
Allen Iverson
Paul Pierce
Kevin Garnett
Jason Kidd
Chris Webber
Stephon Marbury.

That's 11, But add Vince Carter to that list, once he has the best season of his career next year


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TicN9neZ8</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd say it would be more fair to compare him to people at his position because it is hard to say a PG is better then a PF because they have a different array of skills from each other.


VERY true, I was going to say that.


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## Xavier8 (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> These are the only players, that are better than Jermaine O'Neal.
> 
> Tim Duncan
> ...


Offtopic here for a moment, but what is the word on Vince this season? Everybody is saying this could be his best season ever.


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## jreywind (May 30, 2003)

Here are my top ten, I just don't think Paul Pierce and Marbury are as replaceable as JO so I'd take him over them. Shaq is still Shaq even with a bad year last year. He will be the best this year.

Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Kobe Bryant
Tracy McGrady
Dirk Nowitzki
Jason Kidd
Chris Webber
Allen Iverson
Jermaine Oneal


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## TLR (May 28, 2003)

I think you mean irreplaceable...


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Xavier8</b>!
> 
> 
> Offtopic here for a moment, but what is the word on Vince this season? Everybody is saying this could be his best season ever.


Well, he's been working out very hard this offseason, and all us Raptor fans, are just waiting for him to bounce back, and prove all the haters wrong.

I have a good feeling about the Raptors upcoming season.


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## TLR (May 28, 2003)

Yeah that's what they said last year about Vince Carter before the season. Remember that Slam article "Cleared for Takeoff"? It basically said all the things you are saying right now. I tihnk Vince has turned into the Glassman. And even before he was hurt, he was a great player but he got overhyped because of his dunks. Paul Pierce should have won ROY. And every year Vince starts at F for the all star game because fans have the vote and every Canadian person votes for him. I think Jermaine right now is better than pre-injury Vince.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TLR</b>!
> Yeah that's what they said last year about Vince Carter before the season. Remember that Slam article "Cleared for Takeoff"? It basically said all the things you are saying right now. I tihnk Vince has turned into the Glassman. And even before he was hurt, he was a great player but he got overhyped because of his dunks. Paul Pierce should have won ROY. And every year Vince starts at F for the all star game because fans have the vote and every Canadian person votes for him. I think Jermaine right now is better than pre-injury Vince.


So many people think Vince is overrated that he's actually underrated.

If people watched Raptors games, you'd know that Vince has improved his jumpshot dramatically, he has been working out, helping his post game, and he is a great defender when he actually gets into it.

I think Vince is putting weight on his skinny legs, so we won't see anymore 360 windmills, more power dunks in the lane, ect.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> 
> So many people think Vince is overrated that he's actually underrated.
> 
> ...


Vince is definately good when he's healty, he led the Raptors to the conference title, but Jermaine is better because he is unstoppable. The only people in the league that I feel are unstoppable by a defender are Shaq (hook) Kobe (can't explain), Pierce (fadeaway and spin), Jermaine (turn around hook), and Al Harrington (turn around fadaway.)


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> Vince is definately good when he's healty, he led the Raptors to the conference title, but Jermaine is better because he is unstoppable. The only people in the league that I feel are unstoppable by a defender are Shaq (hook) Kobe (can't explain), Pierce (fadeaway and spin), Jermaine (turn around hook), and Al Harrington (turn around fadaway.)


I honestly, don't know what to say when you think Jermaine O'Neal is a better player than Vince.

Can you really compare them in depth when they play two different positions?

I think Vince can be the BEST offensive player in this league, he's simply unguardable, you can't stop Vince coming into the lane, I'm sorry, you just can't.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

I don't think he's a superstar yet. He doesn't have the publicity or the appeal that guys like KG and Kobe have. He doesn't even have the impact that Yao has. You ask a casual fan if they know who Kobe is, they'll answer yes. Ask them who Vince, Garnett, Duncan, or Yao is, they'll say yes. Jermaine O'Neal? No. They might answer yes thinking you mean Shaq though.

Let's take it another step up. You ask a non-NBA fan, aka doesn't know anything about the NBA, who Kobe is, they'll answer yes. Same for Yao, maybe Lebron. Duncan, Garnett or Carter? No.

Stat-wise, Jermaine is an all star. Not a superstar, but an all star. He'll improve over the next couple years too - that's the great thing though. Given a few years and a chance to prove himself more nationally - I don't think a game of this year's series was broadcast nationally - I think he'll be a superstar.

But being a superstar is more than just having good stats. What I'm saying is, I haven't seen JO in any Sprite or McDonald's commercials yet.


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## TLR (May 28, 2003)

I saw him in a Nike commercial with Paul Pierce..


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> 
> 
> I honestly, don't know what to say when you think Jermaine O'Neal is a better player than Vince.
> ...


If Artest can shut down McGrady, I'm sure he can shut down Carter. Jermaine turn around hook shot, however, is unguardable. Vince doesn't have a move like Pierce's spin, or Shaq's hook, or Harrington's turnaround fadaway, that is unguardable.


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## dhook54 (Aug 7, 2003)

Whether fans realizes it or not, Jermaine O'Neal of the Pacers is the poster boy for what went wrong with the World's Championship Team last year. O'Neal played for Team USA in the Worlds last summer, and filmed a commercial that ran frequently during the playoffs. The theme: During a pick-up game, O'Neal and Paul Pierce end up going one-on-one so often that the other eight players leave the court, ending up as spectators. Art imitating life?


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> 
> 
> If Artest can shut down McGrady, I'm sure he can shut down Carter. Jermaine turn around hook shot, however, is unguardable. Vince doesn't have a move like Pierce's spin, or Shaq's hook, or Harrington's turnaround fadaway, that is unguardable.


Vince doesn't have one move, he has many of them, when he drives into the lane, he can't be stopped, his fadeaway basline jumper is unstoppable too.

I truly think this will be Vince's year, I hope he can play at least 60-70 games this season, then go from there.


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## TLR (May 28, 2003)

Jermaine is a superstar. Just because he is not as known as most people does not make them better than him. Do you honestly think that Yao Ming and Lebron James are better than him? Indiana isn't exactly a hotbed for media attention. Shaq wasn't the media monster he is today in Orlando. Media attention does not = superstardom. In fact it has nothing to do with it.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>hellbot</b>!
> 
> Vince doesn't have one move, he has many of them, when he drives into the lane, he can't be stopped, his fadeaway basline jumper is unstoppable too.
> 
> I truly think this will be Vince's year, I hope he can play at least 60-70 games this season, then go from there.


He may be unstopable once he gets to the lane but he can be stopped from getting to the lande.


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