# Did Chris Bosh suddenly get worse or something?



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Ever since he signed with Miami all I've read about is how he's not good enough. But am I missing something? I always have had him on the same tier as Gasol and Amare, ahead of Boozer. 

He's not a franchise player, but a good support guy. Efficient. Good rebounder. Good scorer. Good mid-range shooter.

So what happened? And I know he's not Dennis Rodman on defense, but when did he become Amare? He's always been okayish there. In a league that is pretty bereft of good defending superstar 4s(Gasol doesn't really defend that great either, neither does Dirk).

Top 20 player, no?


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Top 20 player, yes.

His stats will take the biggest hit of the big 3 though - although his stature in the game may increase due to more exposure.

Defensively will be where he shows the most improvement.

24 and 10 power forwards dont grow on trees.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

He should be better, right? Gasol went from a guy no one liked to a Top 10 player with the Lakers. And now he gets to play in America.. though barely.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I expect him to put up Gasol numbers which is around 19 ppg, 12rpg with around 54% FG. I expect him to be in people's top 10 list next year if not the year after.

Theres some similarity between the 2. Gasol joined the Lakers when he was 26 and Bosh is 26 now. Before Gasol joined the Lakers nobody would even consider him to be a top 20 player and now people have him ranked as high as #10 if not higher. Once the Heat start winning championships I would expect Bosh's ranking to take a similar hike.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

The difference is Bosh isn't going to be 2nd option like Pau. That could make a world of difference in how he is percieved. I think he'll be more along the lines of 16/11. It'll be hard for a guy who is the 3rd best on his own team to ever be considered a top 10 player. 

I see him as top 15. Somewhere between 10-15.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Heck Bosh didn't even do as much as Gasol before moving to Miami. Bosh couldn't lead the Raptors to the playoffs save for twice in an inferior conference where you had teams getting to the playoffs with under .500 records.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

HKF said:


> Heck Bosh didn't even do as much as Gasol before moving to Miami. Bosh couldn't lead the Raptors to the playoffs save for twice in an inferior conference where you had teams getting to the playoffs with under .500 records.


I think you'd be hard pressed to make that a distinguishing factor, given how poorly Gasol and the Grizzlies performed once in the playoffs. Especially when you consider that they were pretty loaded teams.

Both guys basically quit on their teams in their final year as well.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> *Ever since he signed with Miami all I've read about is how he's not good enough. But am I missing something? I always have had him on the same tier as Gasol and Amare, ahead of Boozer. *
> 
> He's not a franchise player, but a good support guy. Efficient. Good rebounder. Good scorer. Good mid-range shooter.
> 
> ...


Who's claiming Bosh "isn't good enough"?
If dude is willing to defer to both Wade and James, he is just what the doctor ordered for the Heat offense: good rebounder and scorer.
In the defensive end, he may not be Dennis Rodman, but he is no Amare Stoudemire.
Dude can be a perfect fit to play with Wade and James.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Gasol is just about the perfect big man for the triangle. Hard to see how Bosh fits in right now, but he's not going to come out looking better. What Miami really needs is for him to rebound and defend...Which he can do the first part of well enough.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

hell if you ask me, he just bumped up his legacy.

if he stayed on torontoland he'd continually miss or make the playoffs and bust out in the first two rounds.

his career would be a blip in history.

now he'll have the opportunity to have a hall of fame career. If they can string together titles his contribution would be major.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

HKF said:


> Heck Bosh didn't even do as much as Gasol before moving to Miami. Bosh couldn't lead the Raptors to the playoffs save for twice in an inferior conference where you had teams getting to the playoffs with under .500 records.


The Grizzlies playoff teams featured a bunch of tough SOBs surrounding Pau...Lo Wright, Bonzi, Posey, Battier and then you had JWill and Mike Miller. Compare that to the utter crap and soft as tissue supporting cast Bosh had in Toronto and you will understand the difference. The Grizzlies had 5-8 championship level role players around Pau. I am not sure you can find even one player at that level in toronto.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

If ppl can call Gasol a top 10 player, then you can call Bosh a top 10 player. I dont know why ppl want to get offended. Ppl forget that Bosh was putting up MVP #'s the 1st month or two of last season b4 he packed it in. Whenever I say Bosh is a top 10 player now, ppl want to get offended...


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## Wilmatic2 (Oct 30, 2005)

His numbers should be better this season.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

HKF said:


> Heck Bosh didn't even do as much as Gasol before moving to Miami. Bosh couldn't lead the Raptors to the playoffs save for twice in an inferior conference where you had teams getting to the playoffs with under .500 records.


In the same breath you can also say that Bosh actually won a game in the playoffs by himself. The accomplishments those 2 have individually are quite comparable. The only difference is most consider Bosh a better player at 26 than Gasol was at 26.



Sir Patchwork said:


> The difference is Bosh isn't going to be 2nd option like Pau. That could make a world of difference in how he is percieved. I think he'll be more along the lines of 16/11. It'll be hard for a guy who is the 3rd best on his own team to ever be considered a top 10 player.


Gasol is the 2nd option to Kobe but the Lakers have 3rd/4th/5th options like Artest/Odom/Bynum. Meanwhile after Bosh the Heat have Mike Miller and Udonis Haslem, not exactly the same type of talent here. Most people would also consider Lebron to be a superior passer than Kobe. If anything I would expect scoring to be easier for Bosh now that he's facing single coverage rather than constant double teams.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Why the hell are you putting words into my mouth? I didn't say that someone else did.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

seifer0406 said:


> Gasol is the 2nd option to Kobe but the Lakers have 3rd/4th/5th options like Artest/Odom/Bynum. Meanwhile after Bosh the Heat have Mike Miller and Udonis Haslem, not exactly the same type of talent here. Most people would also consider Lebron to be a superior passer than Kobe. If anything I would expect scoring to be easier for Bosh now that he's facing single coverage rather than constant double teams.


I guess we'll find out. The Heat will have 30-40 shots up between LeBron and Wade before we even talk about Bosh's attempts. With the Lakers, Kobe will get his 20 attempts but after that Gasol is top priority. Artest is a defensive player, Odom comes off the bench and Bynum is in and out of the lineup. I don't think those three take that many shots away from Pau. 

I'm not knocking Bosh, as I think him and Gasol are comparable players with different strengths and weaknesses. I do think Gasol's game is better suited to play off superstars. Gasol has a great ability out of the high post, great passing ability, and more of a back to the basket post game. Bosh is a better raw scorer and rebounder, and probably a better shooter.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Bosh will probably score less and rebound more - my criticism of Bosh has more to do with fit and whether he can perform the role they need as the only legitimate big on that team - hence the questions re defense and rebounding 

maybe he can but as someone said Pau was a perfect fit as a triangle big and Im not sure the same can be said for the mix they have in Miami - of course I expect they'll get by on shear talent and compete for a title but when you look for a weakness on that team you have to start in the middle


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Bosh is going to get a lot of rebounds. And his efficiency should be amazing. He could battle Howard in both categories. All of his shots are going to be dunks or wide open jumpers. Or put backs. His strengths are shooting and rebounding which I think makes him a good fit for Miami. Plus his speed will help for switching on defense.

I think he'll play a big part in their success, even if it's a somewhat underrated role.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

i dont think he's that great on the boards actually - he's ok - as for his offense in some ways it'd be better fit-wise if he had a little bit more of a low post game


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Why would you want a low post guy with Lebron and Wade? That turns both of those guys into spot up shooters. It's better if your 4 is more a shooter, so that the spacing for slashing works out. 

I think Bosh is an above average rebounder. He'll be even better now that he can focus on it more. Similar to when Barkley got to do that in Houston he suddenly became a 20 rebound per game guy. Not saying Bosh is that good of a rebounder. But he's good enough that that's an area where he'll cause other teams problems.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili beg to differ with your jump shooter argument


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

e-monk said:


> Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili beg to differ with your jump shooter argument


Duncan plays a lot from the elbow. His shooting ability does open up lanes for Parker and Ginobilli.

Neither of those guys are as good as Lebron/Wade though either. 

What I'm saying is if you are running your offense through Wade/Lebron--what sense does it make to post Bosh up a lot? Plus you're acting like Bosh has no post game. He has post game. It's just not as good as say Amare or Gasol. It's probably a shade below Dirk. But it's not like he's Tyson Chandler down there. You CAN post him up and get points that way. But why would you want to?

I guess it comes down to--do you think the Heat would be better of with Amare instead of Bosh?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

futuristxen said:


> Duncan plays a lot from the elbow. His shooting ability does open up lanes for Parker and Ginobilli.
> 
> Neither of those guys are as good as Lebron/Wade though either.
> 
> ...


definitely Bosh


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Since when did Bosh lose his post game? Half y'all sound like you've never seen him play. Dude was dropping 40pts a game in the '08 playoffs, inside and out. Guy can play quit makin stuff up lol.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

yeah, Bosh is not in Pau's class in the post - I'd agree with futuristxen's assessment, he's ok, maybe above average but it's not his strength

put it this way: 61% of Pau's points come from the inside, Bosh 46%


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I think people rate him about right, but there are extremists on each end who saw the numbers he put up last year and a) believed they meant he was a franchise guy or b) downplayed them to the point of underrating him.

I think Gasol is a better player than Bosh but not by much. Either way neither is a franchise guy, which is kind of a step back from the Duncan/KG/Dirk days of just a couple years ago. Where are the franchise big men?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

and btw in 2008 Bosh averaged 24 ppg against the Magic on sub .500 shooting (21 .36%; 29 .47%; 15 .43%; 39 .62%; 16 .36%) - one almost 40 point game isnt exactly 'dropping 40 points a game' so like you said, quit making stuff up


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

LeBron/Kobe/Durant/Wade/Paul/Dwight/Williams/Nowitzki

Are the 8 best players in the game right now. I dont think anyone would argue with that. 
Then there is Duncan Roy Anthony Amare Nash who have led their teams as far down the playoffs as Bosh and put up better or comparable numbers. So I do think Bosh is top 15. And he might be top 10 when fit. But its ridiculous to call him a certain top 10 player.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

hroz said:


> LeBron/Kobe/Durant/Wade/Paul/Dwight/Williams/Nowitzki
> 
> Are the 8 best players in the game right now. I dont think anyone would argue with that.
> Then there is Duncan Roy Anthony Amare Nash who have led their teams as far down the playoffs as Bosh and put up better or comparable numbers. So I do think Bosh is top 15. And he might be top 10 when fit. But its ridiculous to call him a certain top 10 player.


It's equally absurd to insist he's not in the top 20, or that he's not close to anyone in the top 10. Once you get past the top 8 the top 10 get really murky. For instance I have Gasol in my top 10 and Amare behind Bosh in my top 20. Amare hasn't ever really led a team on his own, a lot of his success you can attribute to playing with a two time MVP hall of famer in Steve Nash. Who I also don't put in the top 10 anymore. This year in New York will be the first real test of the idea of Amare as a franchise player. I think he's more suited to being a franchise player than Bosh, but we'll see.

I did a top 25 list awhile back, I want to say Bosh and Amare were right next to each other right on the borders of the top 15. Which is only to say that a lot of the guys in that tier behind the top 8 are pretty much interchangeable.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Amar'e put up great stats before Nash and he's going to be the no. 1 guy in a Mike D'Antoni system so I don't see much of a decline. Amar'e was the reason the Suns were a playoffs lock, he was playing like the best big man in the West for the 2nd half of the season.

Bosh is around the 10-20 range and definitely not worse than Amar'e on defense but also doesn't have anywhere near as much playoffs experience and isn't as dominant offensively. I don't see his stats going up in Miami unless there are injuries including rebounding since he's got guys like Wade, LeBron, and Haslem whom all will be active on that end.

People knock Bosh for accomplishing nearly nothing despite being in a weak conference, having a relatively small frame for a NBA big, being Dirk-esque when it comes to shotblocking (only averages a block per game even though he's got youth, length, etc), unprofessional twitter episodes, looking like Rupaul, just being a part of the Miami bandwagon, etc. 

He's still a great player though that all teams would want. Hopefully the Heat organization has the leadership to make him better like the Lakers did with Gasol however I don't think the Heat have an answer for Phil Jackson (depends how active Pat Riley is and will become), Kobe, Fisher, supporting staff, etc.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Bosh is the 3rd best player on his team. It makes sense why he is the 3rd most talked about when it comes to the Miami Heat.

However, I certainly wouldn't be picking Miami for the title (plus several more) if he weren't pretty darn good. I'm not sure James & Wade could do it by themselves (or if they did, it would be far more challenging).

He is a legit 20-10 guy. But that said, he isn't a first-tier superstar. Very few are...so that isn't an insult. Still a top 20 player, and perhaps even top 15.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

No. He was a fringe top 15 player before and he's a fringe top 15 player now.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

Jakain said:


> He's still a great player though that all teams would want. Hopefully the Heat organization has the leadership to make him better like the Lakers did with Gasol however I don't think the Heat have an answer for Phil Jackson (depends how active Pat Riley is and will become), Kobe, Fisher, supporting staff, etc.


An answer for Derek Fisher???


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

Larry Birs=Lebron James
Kevin Mchale=Wade
Bosh-Robert Parish


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

croco said:


> An answer for Derek Fisher???


The guy you posted was talking about leadership which makes sense. House is the closest thing to Fisher on the Heat but doesn't seem as strong of a leader.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Hmm...something tells me between Wade and LeBron the Heat have vocal leadership...what kind of answer for "leadership" are you supposed to come up with anyway?


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Dre™;6378315 said:


> Hmm...something tells me between Wade and LeBron the Heat have vocal leadership...what kind of answer for "leadership" are you supposed to come up with anyway?


Wade and LeBron seem like the type to lead by example than getting guys getting into the game during a timeout and keeping them motivated off the court, which can also work though.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

This is a useless discussion regardless, but they already said on day 1 of training camp LeBron asserted himself as vocal leader of that team. Don't know about Wade, didn't watch him as much, but I see LeBron talking to players and calling plays all the time.

I just don't understand what either of you are really talking about. Fisher isn't a threat in the least bit outside of the 4th quarter big moment or two come Spring that keeps Lakers fans loving him. 

Welcome to the site though.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Yea wasn't talking about his basketball skill but rather his veteran intangibles, specifically leadership, which is one of the main reasons to have him on your team. He's basically a player-coach who helps keeps things in line and players motivated which can help a lot especially for the head coach.

Thanks for the welcome.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Leadership from players is overrated anyways. The best player leaders lead by example (Duncan, for example). The coach is the leader, and if you have a franchise player (or 2 or 3 in the Heat's case) who will buy into the coach and lead on the court by example, then you have great leaders.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Duncan's actually a vocal leader nowadays in addition to leading by example. Good leadership from players can be an invaluable intangible quality but moreso for situations like the Lakers where the coach is on his last legs and could use some help keeping players in line.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Heat have enough savvy veterans like Mike Miller and UD to where I dont think 4thQ leadership is a problem. We're talking a about a team that can close with a line-up where Udonis Haslme is the smallest player on the court. Guys like Lebron, Bosh, Wade, Miller, Haslem, they all kno how to close a game, all 6'8" and above. Essentially, we're talking about line-up that cannot be not countered. Who can do it? I think LA might be the only team w/ the personnel to match that size, w/o losing the way they play, but they still dont match up in terms of skill level. When you talk about ungaurdable, you talk about the Miami Heat. Dwight only has 6 fouls, he cant stop it... Only hope is to maybe get lucky one night n outscore it


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

Wade is 6'8?


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## Dr. Dunkenstein (Sep 16, 2010)

SheriffKilla said:


> Wade is 6'8?


Yeah, I caught that, too. Wade is 6'4" with his shoes on . . .


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Lol, Wade plays big. He plays like he's 6'8".


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Leadership from players is overrated anyways. The best player leaders lead by example (Duncan, for example). The coach is the leader, and if you have a franchise player (or 2 or 3 in the Heat's case) who will buy into the coach and lead on the court by example, then you have great leaders.


Bill Russell just called - he wants to know why you're trying to take away the only quality that can plausibly be argued makes him better than Wilt


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

bosh is just not that good. he'll easily be the scapegoat if the big 3 of the heat fail to get a championship. i see him getting 16/8 type numbers this season. his stats will suffer the most and really, he's by far a way worse player than wade and bosh.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Bosh will get 20/10. You just don't lose it. He's consistently been the man, people who think he'll fall off to a 16/8 type of guy are good for a laugh.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

It's not about falling off it's about shots. He averaged about 15-6 shots a game to get his 22-4 the past few years, that's not going to happen in Miami. I do think he'll do a good 18 though.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

Bosh will get 21/8.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

He better get more rebounds than that, because it's not Anthony's strong suit, and yeah the wing players all rebound well, but the bulk of the responsibility will fall on him. 

You can temper his scoring numbers but the rebounds? Why do people do that...


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Haslem will clean up.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Bosh should still be the primary board crasher like I said. He's the starting 4.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

Porn_Player said:


> Bosh will get 20/10. You just don't lose it. He's consistently been the man, people who think he'll fall off to a 16/8 type of guy are good for a laugh.


i just see bosh scoring that much on the heat. he's not going to be the #1 option anymore in fact he'll be third. it's not even about losing it considering his stats were inflated on the raptors to begin with. bosh is a pretty good midrange shooter but his post scoring is rather weak and in fact most of his points in the paint are from beating his defenders off the dribble and then laying it in.

i think 16 is a fair prediction for his point production. i also see his rebounds falling because lebron is a good rebounder and so is wade. bosh is a good rebounder but his superstar teammates will take away 2 of his rebounds per game making it 8.

i know it sounds harsh but bosh is practically a glorified lemarcus aldridge, with slightly better rebounding.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

c_dog said:


> i just see bosh scoring that much on the heat. he's not going to be the #1 option anymore in fact he'll be third. it's not even about losing it considering his stats were inflated on the raptors to begin with. bosh is a pretty good midrange shooter but his post scoring is rather weak and *in fact most of his points in the paint are from beating his defenders off the dribble and then laying it in.*
> 
> i think 16 is a fair prediction for his point production. i also see his rebounds falling because lebron is a good rebounder and so is wade. bosh is a good rebounder but his superstar teammates will take away 2 of his rebounds per game making it 8.
> 
> i know it sounds harsh but bosh is practically a glorified lemarcus aldridge, with slightly better rebounding.


This is the crux of a misconception...if that's what he can consistently do, that makes him effective in the paint, no? I don't understand why people believe to be a considered a good post scorer you automatically have to have some huge arsenal. 

If you can use your speed or size and still get buckets then you can't be considered weak in the low post. 

And you're also neglecting that LeBron and Wade are two of the most active playmakers he's ever played with. Calderon is efficient but he didn't do too much moving with the ball and I don't know how creative a passer he was. 

You could even say the possessions Bosh had to spend off the dribble will be made up by at least 2-3 dumpoffs a game from Wade and LeBron. Thats 4-6 points right there, maybe even more with fouls. 

Then you count the fast break oppurtunities he never had in Toronto..I'm starting to actually convince myself his old numbers are actually attainable despite him doing less one on one legwork to get them.

I think 16 points is too low of a figure when you consider his role on that Heat team and his skill level. He's about the only option over 6-9 they have besides Haslem sometimes and Z's little 18 footer.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Leadership from players is overrated anyways. The best player leaders lead by example (Duncan, for example). The coach is the leader, and if you have a franchise player (or 2 or 3 in the Heat's case) who will buy into the coach and lead on the court by example, then you have great leaders.


Lebrons biggest fan saying leadership doesn't matter, that's surprising. 

Leadership is huge in any sport, basketball is no exception. I think the Heat have more than enough vets and vocal guys where I don't think it will be a problem for them, but to say leadership doesn't matter and its all on the coach is laughable.

Kobe is a great leader. If he just kept quiet all the time the Lakers would suffer for it. And just because Duncan is boring doesn't mean he isn't a vocal leader on and off the court.


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## Xeneise (Jul 5, 2010)

Bosh will average 19-20 ppg and 11-12 rpg.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

LeBron and Wade will make the teammate 30% worse. Sounds crazy, but it will be true.

Let's say Bosh score 23 pts per game last season, he will score 16 pts per game this season.


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## Noyze (Oct 7, 2010)

c_dog said:


> bosh is just not that good. he'll easily be the scapegoat if the big 3 of the heat fail to get a championship. i see him getting 16/8 type numbers this season. his stats will suffer the most and really, he's by far a way worse player than wade and bosh.


If they don't make it to the championship I guarantee you it will all fall on LeBron. Everyone will be happy to say "I told you so." Since he's the bad guy right now sticking it to the Heat is a top priority even if they don't say it.

Bosh verbally said he was gonna focus on rebounding so I don't see 16/8 as you say. His scoring numbers might dip but I'm thinking along the lines of 19/13. and improved defense.



c_dog said:


> i think 16 is a fair prediction for his point production. i also see his rebounds falling because lebron is a good rebounder and so is wade. bosh is a good rebounder but his superstar teammates will take away 2 of his rebounds per game making it 8.


By your logic we should be able to predict the numbers of every new acquisition. Look for significantly more efficient scoring from Bosh. He should be able to attack the offensive glass more with attention on Bron and Wade. This brings up his rebounding a bit and his field goal pct, not to mention Raptors were at the bottom last year in field goal def pct. A career assist year from Calderon wont feed him more buckets then Wade and LeBron.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

When has Bosh put up anything but empty stats?

When was Gasol shut down by someone like Jason Collins in the playoffs?

Did someone say defense?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

cpawfan said:


> When has Bosh put up anything but empty stats?
> 
> When was Gasol shut down by someone like Jason Collins in the playoffs?
> 
> Did someone say defense?


Yea, someone probably did say defense.

Big surprise to see you in here. The same guy who argued that Taj Gibson has the same impact as Chris Bosh. 

Why don't you get out of here before you make a fool out of yourself, again.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Blu said:


> Haslem will clean up.


that's what happened in game 1 - but that means Bosh is playing center right? or Haslem - probably they can get away with that against most teams but again not ideal


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

I'm gonna predict 19 and 11. He'll probably shoot the best percentage of his career also.

He's just gonna get so many easy buckets. Whether it's offensive rebound putbacks, open J's, dump offs...he's gonna score very very easily.

He might not get the 18-20 shot attempts per game, but if he can hit 7 or 8 of the 14 he gets, plus a few free throws, he'll be around that mark.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Well just look at this past game. He got what...13 shots? And still got 20 points up in not that many minutes, with some boards. Heck Haslem put up a double double off the bench.

I think Bosh is going to be insanely efficient this season. And I think he's going to get a few more offensive rebounds than he used to, which will up his rebound total slightly.

I think 19/11 on close to 60 percent shooting is about right.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

R-Star said:


> Yea, someone probably did say defense.
> 
> Big surprise to see you in here. The same guy who argued that Taj Gibson has the same impact as Chris Bosh.
> 
> Why don't you get out of here before you make a fool out of yourself, again.


I remember that thread. I went into a coma for 3 months after half of my brain cells were killed reading those retarded posts. It was a long and hard recovery.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

It's funny to see people predicting that both his points and rebounding numbers will go down.

The bottom line is he is going to be out there for at least 36 min a game. If he's not going score, rebound, or defend what exactly will he be doing out there? Something has to give. If he's not going to shoot as much his rebounding numbers will increase. If he's not going to exert as much energy on offense he will exert more energy on defense. To expect everything to drop across the board is just unrealistic considering the guy is 26 and for the first time in his career has something to play for. The blind hate behind some of these posts are just ridiculous.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

blind hate? certainly not from me. i explained my reasoning. i don't think bosh was ever that skilled of a scorer and was almost force-fed on the raptors because of a lack of options. his point production will no doubt take a huge hit. anything higher than 18ppg is unrealistic given his skill level and shots available. so i say 16. the lack of rebounding is more gut instinct because while you can argue that he can focus more on rebounding, he has some teammates who gobbles up rebounds. on the raps he was basically the only rebounder when they play bargnani and turk on the floor, whereas haslem and lebron are both going to get around 8rpg if not more. i think 16/8 is a valid prediction, and we'll see who's right in a few months.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

You know you're going to be known as the Bosh 16/8 guy by midseason right?


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

i'm not gonna call the 16/8 prediction ridiculous because hey, anything can happen..

but i will say basketball wise, knowing the way Lebron/Wade attack the rim, Bosh should get plenty of open J's based off his defender helping to stop the penetration. Throw in that the Heat love to run pick/pop as well he should be getting a nice number of (open)shots up. Add the dumpoffs/putbacks/fastbreak/and random iso on the block. And i really don't see why his scoring numbers should drop off significantly, unless we purposefully choose to. (maybe to focus more on D, who knows)


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> blind hate? certainly not from me. i explained my reasoning. i don't think bosh was ever that skilled of a scorer and was almost force-fed on the raptors because of a lack of options. his point production will no doubt take a huge hit. anything higher than 18ppg is unrealistic given his skill level and shots available. so i say 16. the lack of rebounding is more gut instinct because while you can argue that he can focus more on rebounding, he has some teammates who gobbles up rebounds. on the raps he was basically the only rebounder when they play bargnani and turk on the floor, whereas haslem and lebron are both going to get around 8rpg if not more. i think 16/8 is a valid prediction, and we'll see who's right in a few months.


You also think that Sonny Weems has as much potential as any wing player in the league including Lebron and Kobe.

This force-feeding talk doesn't work when the guy shoots over 50% and gets to the line 8+ times a game. Monta Ellis was force-fed, Bosh carried a team offensively.

Your rebounding argument is flawed because that's just not how things work in the NBA. Do you expect Bargnani to average 10 rebounds a game now that Bosh isn't there any more? Gasol didn't average double digits in rebounding until he joined the Lakers. Are you trying to tell me that the Lakers are a worse rebounding team than those Grizzlies with the likes of Hakim Warrick and Rudy Gay manning the front line?

Moreover, if I'm Lebron and now I finally have a guy on my team who's capable of grabbing 10+ rebounds a night, wouldn't I defer to him for rebounding so I can save my energy for doing other things? This goes back to my previous post about something needs to give. Lebron didn't join a team so that he can do more of everything. To expect Bosh to all of a sudden do less on all fronts just makes no sense.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> You also think that Sonny Weems has as much potential as any wing player in the league including Lebron and Kobe.
> 
> This force-feeding talk doesn't work when the guy shoots over 50% and gets to the line 8+ times a game. Monta Ellis was force-fed, Bosh carried a team offensively.
> 
> ...


sonny weems is an extremely gifted athlete. i don't think i ever said he was as talented as lebron or kobe but i do think he has the tools to be a very good player.

and bosh didn't carry no team. the raps were consistently in the lottery for all but 2 seasons while he was there, and most of the time were one of the worst teams in the league. i think bosh is a legit 16-18ppg scorer as a team's 2nd/3rd option. but he was never that 20+ppg guy unless you're relying on him more than you should.

and the rebounding logic i used is not flawed. there are many factors that goes into a player's ppg and i stated one of the factors. obviously bargnani will see an increase in rebounding but 10rpg is just not possible for someone like him. bargs could however, get around 7rpg if he has a good season, given that he's a poor rebounder. i don't even think lebron will be doing more on the heat, i think his rpg will stay the same, it's just that bosh has never played with teammates who are so good at rebounding that his rpg could take a hit.

and i'm fine with being known as the 16/8 guy. if bosh manages to play better than that then good for the heat. i gave my contribution to this thread and if people disagree then so be it.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> weems has as much potential as any star wing player who's ever graced the nba.


I still remember your claim because frankly it was so retarded it left a deep impression.



> and bosh didn't carry no team. the raps were consistently in the lottery for all but 2 seasons while he was there, and most of the time were one of the worst teams in the league. i think bosh is a legit 16-18ppg scorer as a team's 2nd/3rd option. but he was never that 20+ppg guy unless you're relying on him more than you should.


Bosh carried the team offensively. They didn't make the playoffs but from an offensive standpoint there wasn't much that Bosh could've done. If you cannot differentiate between a guy who shot a high percentage while being the target of opposing team's defense vs. a guy who's a volume shooter then that's your problem. 



> and the rebounding logic i used is not flawed. there are many factors that goes into a player's ppg and i stated one of the factors. obviously bargnani will see an increase in rebounding but 10rpg is just not possible for someone like him. bargs could however, get around 7rpg if he has a good season, given that he's a poor rebounder. i don't even think lebron will be doing more on the heat, i think his rpg will stay the same, it's just that bosh has never played with teammates who are so good at rebounding that his rpg could take a hit.


So a 11 rpg guy leaves and Bargnani's rebounding numbers is expected to go up by .3. Bosh goes to a team where theres a 8 rpg guy in the starting lineup and suddenly he is expected to grab 3 less rebounds per game. Makes a lot of sense. Tell me why the Lakers are a worse rebounding team than the old Memphis teams led by Gasol? Explain the hike in rebounding numbers because obviously it has nothing to do with the fact that he's playing next to a 30 ppg scorer.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> I remember that thread. I went into a coma for 3 months after half of my brain cells were killed reading those retarded posts. It was a long and hard recovery.


I'm not surprised he ran away after being called out in this thread. I think hes probably still embarrassed of the way I tore into him last time.

Even more pathetic is he made an avatar for himself on how Bosh is overrated. It's pretty sad. Honestly though I hope he comes back, it would be fun.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

c_dog said:


> blind hate? certainly not from me. i explained my reasoning. i don't think bosh was ever that skilled of a scorer and was almost force-fed on the raptors because of a lack of options. his point production will no doubt take a huge hit. anything higher than 18ppg is unrealistic given his skill level and shots available. so i say 16. the lack of rebounding is more gut instinct because while you can argue that he can focus more on rebounding, he has some teammates who gobbles up rebounds. on the raps he was basically the only rebounder when they play bargnani and turk on the floor, whereas haslem and lebron are both going to get around 8rpg if not more. i think 16/8 is a valid prediction, and we'll see who's right in a few months.


So your gut instinct tells you that Lebron James is going to have a career year with 8 rebounds a game, Udonis Haslem, who will see the lowest minutes hes seen in quite some time is going to stay on par with his 8 rpg career average, but Chris Bosh, who has had 10 RPG the last 2 years is going to see his rebounds dip by at least 2 even though he'll be playing as the third option and see much more time rebounding in the offensive end. Yea, that makes a ton of sense.

Now let me tell you what my gut instinct tells me. It tells me your pouting after Bosh left Toronto and now you hate him. My gut instinct tells me that if we were to go back and look 2 years ago before there was any trade talk or worry about Bosh leaving, you were arguing him to be one of the best bigmen in the league, and calling him a franchise player. Now hes an average bigman who will be lucky to put up 16 and 8. That's what my gut instinct is telling me.

I wonder who's gut instinct is more accurate. The one of a man who is neither a fan of Bosh, the Raptors or the Heat, or a guy who's feelings are hurt because Bosh left his team.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

R-Star said:


> Lebrons biggest fan saying leadership doesn't matter, that's surprising.
> 
> Leadership is huge in any sport, basketball is no exception. I think the Heat have more than enough vets and vocal guys where I don't think it will be a problem for them, but to say leadership doesn't matter and its all on the coach is laughable.
> 
> Kobe is a great leader. If he just kept quiet all the time the Lakers would suffer for it. And just because Duncan is boring doesn't mean he isn't a vocal leader on and off the court.


According to Spoelstra, LeBron has been incredibly vocal in training camp and on the court. I still think it's overrated, but you have an agenda so believe what you want.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> According to Spoelstra, LeBron has been incredibly vocal in training camp and on the court. I still think it's overrated, but you have an agenda so believe what you want.


An agenda to come into a thread, defend Bosh and say leadership is important?

Sure sounds like an agenda to me.


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

He doesn't have to best Pau, Wade does, he only has to play better than Odom or Bynum. Lebron and Wade are also much better than the best two Celtics or Howard/Lewis.

If Aldridge had Bosh's numbers, he would be a top 5 player to many.

Even if Bosh got worse he's good enough to make the Rashard Lewis signing more ridiculous or to make KG look slower (if he's on the court).


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

R-Star said:


> I'm not surprised he ran away after being called out in this thread. I think hes probably still embarrassed of the way I tore into him last time.
> 
> Even more pathetic is he made an avatar for himself on how Bosh is overrated. It's pretty sad. Honestly though I hope he comes back, it would be fun.


I didn't run away, I simply ignored your bait. You never tore into more nor made any freaking sense, so why in the hell would I run away.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Let's be honest here, scoring is a function of possessions used, and Bosh just won't get anything like the possessions he was using in Toronto (though that's going to be offset slightly by even greater efficiency). So his scoring's going to drop. But his rebounding shouldn't, because he's going to be more focused on garbage buckets than ever.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

lol


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Dre™ said:


> You know you're going to be known as the Bosh 16/8 guy by midseason right?


Bosh has always put up empty stats. He puts up pretty numbers, but is far more Jane than Tarzan. He is not an impactful player and being in Miami with two guys that can almost all of the pressure of him is perfect for him.

In key moments of games, the ball isn't going to be in his hands to make decisions. He might get fed the ball for a last shot if the defense collapses on Wade or James because of their passing skills, but he won't be asked to win games.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

E.H. Munro said:


> Let's be honest here, scoring is a function of possessions used, and Bosh just won't get anything like the possessions he was using in Toronto (though that's going to be offset slightly by even greater efficiency). So his scoring's going to drop. But his rebounding shouldn't, because he's going to be more focused on garbage buckets than ever.


I don't know, like I said if you take 5 shots a game from him I know he's going to get at least 3 garbage buckets to offset that, so I think he'll stick at 20.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> Bosh has always put up empty stats. He puts up pretty numbers, but is far more Jane than Tarzan. He is not an impactful player and being in Miami with two guys that can almost all of the pressure of him is perfect for him.
> 
> In key moments of games, the ball isn't going to be in his hands to make decisions. He might get fed the ball for a last shot if the defense collapses on Wade or James because of their passing skills, but he won't be asked to win games.


This is one of those moments where you find a crack in the door and try to bust it open with your disregard for Bosh...

I don't care about any of that in the context of the post I made, though I probably agree with them, that doesn't mean he's going to put up 16 and 8, which was all I was talking about.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

cpawfan said:


> I didn't run away, I simply ignored your bait. You never tore into more nor made any freaking sense, so why in the hell would I run away.


Ignored my bait, or got mad because I keep calling you out. Coming back here was a mistake for you. Do you really want me to go to the effort to find the thread where you said Taj Gibson has the same impact on a game as Chris Bosh, then you proceeded to back peddle, name call, and ultimately run away with your tail between your legs? I'm sure I could find it. 

You're already the guy who went to the effort to make a Chris Bosh sucks avatar, do we need to make this worse? Maybe you can just reply by explaining why Taj Gibson is the same impactful player that Bosh is and save everyone some time. Or just leave. Either or works for everyone, although the latter is probably better for you.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Dre™ said:


> I don't know, like I said if you take 5 shots a game from him I know he's going to get at least 3 garbage buckets to offset that, so I think he'll stick at 20.


There's no way on earth that Bosh's usage rate remains in the 27-29 range playing with James & Wade. Bosh was getting his 24/g last year on more than 22 possessions a game. There's a zero percent chance that he'll ever see that many possessions per game in Miami.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I said shots. I don't even know how to do usage rate.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Well, the usage rate is the approximate percentage of a teams plays involving a player. But for raw possessions you simply need to add up FGA, T/O and .44*FTA to find out how many possessions a player is using up. Bosh just won't be getting 22-23 possessions per game anymore. None of them will. But James & Wade are going to get more than Bosh.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

E.H. Munro said:


> Let's be honest here, scoring is a function of possessions used, and Bosh just won't get anything like the possessions he was using in Toronto (though that's going to be offset slightly by even greater efficiency). So his scoring's going to drop. But his rebounding shouldn't, because he's going to be more focused on garbage buckets than ever.


Just look at Gasol's numbers. Gasol was a 20 pt scorer in Memphis and shot around 50-51%. When he joined the Lakers his point total decreased but his FG% went up to 54% along with his rebounding numbers. I see the same thing happening to Bosh. He's not going to put up 23 points a game but he will be a more efficient scorer. His offensive rebounding numbers will increase because Lebron/Wade will be putting up most of the shots.

My prediction is 18/12/1.5blk with 54% FG. Scoring may improve if Wade gets injured.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

He'll be in the 15-18 ppg and 9-12 ten per game area. 

Remember, Lebron is a playmaker as is Dwyane Wade. I could see Lebron's scoring take a dip to 23-25 as well as Wade's.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Yeah, all three guys' scoring is going to decrease. Honestly I could see James' scoring going below 20 with his assist total going over 10.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Watching tonight...I don't know if Bosh's scoring numbers are going to go down afterall. He's going to get so many open looks--he and Haslem just make it look easy out there. Mid-range jumper after mid-range jumper.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

It's Bosh's bread and butter. He's gonna hit that all day.

I still stand by the predicted 19 and 11. He'll be at or near those numbers. Haslem may take some of his boards though.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

12 rebounds per game from bosh? i just don't see it happening. 10rpg is possible but 12 is farfetched. bosh is not that good of a rebounder even if there are that many missed shots available for him to grab. he's no kevin garnett.

i may up my prediction to 17/9 but i might as well stick with my original prediction of 16/8. i think people are going to be surprised at a lack of production from bosh.

@seifer: I do think sonny weems is extremely talented but you need to learn something called hyperbole (it'll help you get further in life than take every word so literally). does that mean i think he's as talented as lebron/MJ? no, but i do think sonny weems is extremely talented and if he is able to put things together he can be an all-star in this league.

on another note, i could see haslem get more than 8rpg. i think 8rpg is the absolute minimum for haslem. depending on minutes he could get over 10rpg, but his prediction is tougher because his minutes are not going to be as consistent as bosh's, and we're not sure how he's going to be implemented. either way, he'll take a few rebounds away from bosh as well over the season.

@R-star: please go back two years and find the threads where i was calling out chris bosh when he repeatedly let us down. when we repeatedly look at him for answers in games and he just chucks up missed jumpshots after missed jumpshots and afraid to get in the paint. you might be able to find similar threads for bargnani too.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I like Sonny's game....he has made me a believer.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

futuristxen said:


> Watching tonight...I don't know if Bosh's scoring numbers are going to go down afterall. He's going to get so many open looks--he and Haslem just make it look easy out there. Mid-range jumper after mid-range jumper.


are you factoring in that Wade's not playing?

I figure this: a few less touches but higher efficiency = maybe a slight dip in ppg and a change in role to focus on the boards may = a few more boards - high teens points and double digit rebounds


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> @seifer: I do think sonny weems is extremely talented but you need to learn something called hyperbole (it'll help you get further in life than take every word so literally). does that mean i think he's as talented as lebron/MJ? no, but i do think sonny weems is extremely talented and if he is able to put things together he can be an all-star in this league.


Yes....Let's all use hyperboles when predicting players. I think Bosh has the potential to average 50 and 30, it makes a lot of sense when comparing players.

If you go back to the original thread where you posted that it was during a discussion where we were *comparing* the potential of Kleiza and Weems. Way to exaggerate Weems to completely ruin the discussion. Heres something that'll help you in life, learn some common sense.

I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how the Lakers are a worse rebounding team than the Grizzlies. Gasol's rebounding numbers went up after he joined the Lakers. *Why?*


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

is it because he stopped being the primary offensive option and his role changed to focus more on the boards?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

e-monk said:


> is it because he stopped being the primary offensive option and his role changed to focus more on the boards?


That's what a normal person would say, but I'm not asking a normal person here.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> Yes....Let's all use hyperboles when predicting players. I think Bosh has the potential to average 50 and 30, it makes a lot of sense when comparing players.
> 
> If you go back to the original thread where you posted that it was during a discussion where we were *comparing* the potential of Kleiza and Weems. Way to exaggerate Weems to completely ruin the discussion. Heres something that'll help you in life, learn some common sense.
> 
> I'm still waiting for you to explain to me how the Lakers are a worse rebounding team than the Grizzlies. Gasol's rebounding numbers went up after he joined the Lakers. *Why?*


you lack common sense if you can't even sense when there is some hyperbole. everybody knows lebron, kobe, mj were specimen rarely seen in the nba. when i said sonny weems was as talented as any star player to grace the court i wasn't necessarily saying he was better than lebron/mj/kobe, but he is a comparable physical specimen to guys like andre iguodala, vince carter, both star players in the league. hyperbole help gets the point accross to dimwits like you. you take every word i post so literally; instead of arguing the points i make you are nit picking at words. how about instead of arguing that lebron> weems(not even debatable) you argue the fact that i think weems is flat out supertalented? or do you just nit pick because you can't argue against my point?

as for gasol's rebounding numbers, his rebounding actually went down when he first went to the lakers. otherwise is rebounding was EXACTLY THE SAME as his years in memphis. the *only difference was last season when he average 11rpg. *before that his career high was in 06-07 with 9.9rpg, with memphis. now that we clarify those numbers, i'm not sure why we're even arging that memphis was a worse rebounding team or whatever. memphis was probably a worse rebounding team but so what? i think gasol really stepped up his rebounding last year and has really turned the corner. before last season kobe was the clear #1 on the team and last year gasol showed enough fight and fire, and consistency that he was a leader along side kobe on the floor. he is now an undisputed top 10 player in the league.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> you lack common sense if you can't even sense when there is some hyperbole. everybody knows lebron, kobe, mj were specimen rarely seen in the nba. when i said sonny weems was as talented as any star player to grace the court i wasn't necessarily saying he was better than lebron/mj/kobe, but he is a comparable physical specimen to guys like andre iguodala, vince carter, both star players in the league. hyperbole help gets the point accross to dimwits like you. you take every word i post so literally; instead of arguing the points i make you are nit picking at words. how about instead of arguing that lebron> weems(not even debatable) you argue the fact that i think weems is flat out supertalented? or do you just nit pick because you can't argue against my point?


To be specific, you said "Potential". Potential is more than just physical tools. You can take a football running back and chances are he won't be much of a basketball player. Again, in the context of comparing 2 players' potential, I don't see why anyone would exaggerate a guy's potential to that extent and completely ruin the conversation. It makes no sense. It's as if I ask you which car is more expensive, Accord or Camry, and you tell me that the Accord is as expensive as a space shuttle. It's retarded. I'm sure you know what a hyperbole means, you just don't know where the hell to use it.

As for Gasol, before his last season in Memphis where he only appeared in 59 games, he never averaged more than 9 rebounds. He average 9.8 rebounds his last year in Memphis and averaged 11.3 last year. 11.3 is more than 9.8 isn't it? I don't see what you're trying to argue here. I guess Gasol must have done a hell of a job improving his rebounding skills according to you. Not only did he combat the odds of playing for a better rebounding team and having his rebound opportunities reduced, he *stepped up* his rebounding by 2 a game from his career average.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

actually the season before was also above his career average

not to muddy the waters even further but here's another factor

how many other guys on his team are pulling down 15% or more of the rebounds? because you figure that there's only so many rebounds to go around so if you are playing along-side another strong rebounder, well you're likely to pull down less (this is why Im less than impressed with Dwight Howard's board work, he's playing with 3 guards and a small forward)

(one of the great unsung achievements in NBA history might be the seasons (71-72 and 73-74) Harold Happy Hairston pulled down 1000 rebounds while playing next to Wilt - you think it's hard battling an opponent for a board? now add Wilt (and you cant even box him out, he's your teammate))

so compare Pau's turn competing with Bynum (8 rpg)and Odom (10 rpg)to Bosh working with one guy with 6 rpg and the rest of his team sub- 5rpg - or Pau's earlier work with Memphis when the second best rebounder on the team may have been Mike Miller

Pau's numbers with the Lakers are even more impressive


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

If Gasol stayed in Memphis and remained as the focus on offense he would've never made these advancements as a rebounder. This goes back to my point a couple pages ago regarding how players roles change due to the type of teammates around him. If Gasol isn't going to score as much, his rebounding should improve because that would be his focus. Gasol offensive rebounding numbers went up by 1.5 after he joined the Lakers, that improvement is due to him not being the guy taking most of the shots.

Again, this argument started when C_Dog claimed that both Bosh's rebounding and scoring numbers will take a significant dip. I'm arguing that if he's not going to score as much, he will likely grab more rebounds. That's what happened to Gasol as well as many stars that have seen their roles reduced in the past. You're going to see improved rebounding and improved defense from Bosh because he no longer focuses on scoring the basketball.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

that's probably right - or he'll be exposed and Haslem will vacuum up all the caroms


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

e-monk said:


> that's probably right - or he'll be exposed and Haslem will vacuum up all the caroms


As you've pointed out when Gasol averaged 8 rpg in Memphis the guys he played with weren't exactly top notch rebounders either. With the exception of the late Lorenzen Wright (who alternated between starter/bench) you can apply everything you said about Bosh's supporting cast and use it on Gasol's cast. The only difference is Gasol only averaged 8-9 rpg under those circumstances.


I don't really want to turn this thread into a Gasol/Bosh discussion, I'm just pointing out that C_Dog's logic doesn't apply to Gasol.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

seifer0406 said:


> As you've pointed out when Gasol averaged 8 rpg in Memphis the guys he played with weren't exactly top notch rebounders either. With the exception of the late Lorenzen Wright (who alternated between starter/bench) you can apply everything you said about Bosh's supporting cast and use it on Gasol's cast. The only difference is Gasol only averaged 8-9 rpg under those circumstances.
> 
> 
> I don't really want to turn this thread into a Gasol/Bosh discussion, I'm just pointing out that C_Dog's logic doesn't apply to Gasol.


I agree - in fact that was my point, i.e. that Gasol even when playing with the likes of Mike Miller was not close to the rebounder he's become with the Lakers under circumstances similar to those now faced by Bosh


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## Noyze (Oct 7, 2010)

The reason Gasol grabbed only 8 rebounds a game or so in Memphis is because that's what most drafted foreigner big man do. They don't average double doubles, their bigs shoot jump shots. There are rare exceptions sure, but by nature most of them don't wanna bang in the NBA, so scouts use the words "finesse" to describe their game, which is also known as "soft" by fanatics. Paul Gasol had the soft title like most, but his improved rebounding and physical play wasn't just because he had a reduced role with the Lakers. The Lakers toughened him up after they got pushed around in the 2008 finals.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

i don't think seifer read what i posted about gasol's numbers. his rebounding numbers improved when he stepped up his game, when he toughened up, not when he got traded to the lakers.

and there's a chance bosh improves his rebounding numbers. everything is speculation at this point and it makes some sense that bosh would have more rebounds because 1. less competition for rebounds as he's the only guy who is 6'10 and not a stiff 2. more energy to exert on rebounding since he won't have the ball in his hands nearly as much. these are valid arguments. I just don't think this is how it's going to work out. i think chris bosh's numbers were already inflated from 'over-usage' on the raptors and that his rebounding numbers were helped by the lack of teammates who can grab rebounds(bargnani, hedo). i think guys like lebron and haslem are going to get some rebounds and bosh's rebounding numbers may actually go down. that's how i see things work out. i could be wrong, but so what? it's my prediction and i'm sticking with it. wouldn't you want me to stick with my prediction if it's so outrageous so you can quote and laugh at me if i'm wrong?

regarding sonny.. w/e man. i don't want to play word games. physical tools is part of potential. sonny weems has plenty of potential, and has all the physical tools to be a star. stop picking at words and actually come up with legit arguments once in a while.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

cpawfan said:


> In key moments of games, the ball isn't going to be in his hands to make decisions. He might get fed the ball for a last shot if the defense collapses on Wade or James because of their passing skills, but he won't be asked to win games.


Go ahead and state the obvious. Name any player in the NBA who would get the ball in his hands in key moments, when they have LeBron and Wade next to them. Kobe Bryant is the only name you can argue.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

Bosh didn't get worse. He's just not as good as Stoudemire, Gasol, or Nowitzki.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

GrandKenyon6 said:


> Bosh didn't get worse. He's just not as good as Stoudemire, Gasol, or Nowitzki.


He was younger and more productive than all 3 last year. So....


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

MemphisX said:


> He was younger and more productive than all 3 last year. So....


I think having the highest win share and being the second best player on a back-to-back title winning team is more productive than quitting on your team and phoning in the last several months of the season but that's just me


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I have Dirk and Pau ahead of him. But I think it's a toss up between him and Amare, with his age and lack of serious injuries pushing it slightly into Bosh's favor. 

Amare is one misstep from being a blind man with one leg.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

People have revisionist history. They simply ignore when Gasol was in Memphis, because it wont fit into their argument. The fact is, he wasn't better than Bosh as a #1 but now that he's on a stacked team ppl want to think he is better than Dwight... Two years from now ppl will be saying the same things about Bosh. Once he gets his 2 rings, they'll forget he was a loser #1, just like they have forgotten with Pau. It's not hard to tell. People want to act like Pau just suddenly got incrementally better, but nah not really... He just has help now.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Blu said:


> People have revisionist history. They simply ignore when Gasol was in Memphis, because it wont fit into their argument. The fact is, he wasn't better than Bosh as a #1 but now that he's on a stacked team ppl want to think he is better than Dwight... Two years from now ppl will be saying the same things about Bosh. Once he gets his 2 rings, they'll forget he was a loser #1, just like they have forgotten with Pau. It's not hard to tell. People want to act like Pau just suddenly got incrementally better, but nah not really... He just has help now.


nah, I think some people can praise Pau while still understanding he's better suited to the role of side kick (just like Bosh) while at the same time pointing out that his improvement has more to do with becoming mentally tougher and shedding that euro-soft tag


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Exactly, Pau is a mentally stronger player than he was in LA, and that's because he's not the main man. His mindset directly effected the way he plays.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

e-monk said:


> nah, I think some people can praise Pau while still understanding he's better suited to the role of side kick (just like Bosh) while at the same time pointing out that his improvement has more to do with becoming mentally tougher and shedding that euro-soft tag


While that may be the case with you, there have been a good number of posts made in the past few weeks where people tried to argue that Gasol was a significantly better player than Bosh back in the Memphis days. They don't see Gasol as a soft Euro even back then. Some people also project Bosh's value as a player to go down next year because his role has diminished now that he's the 3rd best player on a loaded team. Meanwhile, Gasol's stock skyrocketed after he joined the Lakers where he went from being the #1 option to #2 with a bunch of talented #3, 4, 5 behind him. The fact is no Laker fan would give 2 ****s about Gasol if the guy is still in Memphis. There will be no top 10 ranking, no HOF mention and people will likely make fun of whoever that compare Gasol with the likes of Bosh, Amare, Boozer.

The point of comparing Bosh with Gasol is to point out that a lot of predictions that are made about Bosh right now did not happen to Gasol. The 2 of them are similar enough that you can make such a comparison. The very title of this thread defines my point. Bosh didn't "get worse" by going to a loaded team. By this time next year his stock will be higher than it's ever been.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

I think it's a good comparison in as much as Bosh like Gasol will probably score less and be expected to toughen up and play more of a banger role - sure


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## Maravilla (Jul 6, 2010)

Bosh may break shooting % records this year.. I really dont think I'd be surprised if it happens.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Wilt shot 68% on 24ppg scoring so I kind of doubt it - but a Pau like 56-58%? sure


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

i know it's early but let's re-visit this. bosh clearly is suffering the most statistically out of the big 3. i gave my reasoning as to why his stats would decline. even 16/8 is looking optimistic so far.

in any case it doesn't look like bosh's value is going higher at all. he is getting exposed as a jump shot happy "big man".


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Yeah, at this point, from the Miami games I have seen, it's not even a product of him deferring to Lebron and Wade.

He just hasn't looked as good out there, but it's still early. 

For a guy who wanted all this media attention though, he certainly doesn't seem to relish it.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I said it before, being the 3rd option in an offense that is not really tailored to his skills is not going to do him any favors as far as his individual standing. Bosh will help Miami a lot, but winning is not going to help his case as an individual player like it did Pau. Pau is literally in the perfect situation for his skillset. His individual standing improved so much because of how he thrived on a championship team in a role that allows him to showcase his entire ability.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

yeah i've definitely been saying that bosh is overrated.. mainly because his game is so one dimensional. they already have 2 guys who can drive and shoot mid range jumpers, so there's no need for bosh. someone who plays with his back to the basket would be more suited for this team, like an amare stoudamire. imo he's much better than bosh, even if amare is overrated.

bosh's numbers will probably go up a bit once he gets more comfortable, but he won't get that much better.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

:2worf: 

People are funny


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

5 games everybody....5 games....


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Actually I have to admit that I was wrong about Bosh's numbers. If the Heat continues to blow everyone out then yeah Bosh's number will take a hit. He played like 26 min tonight? You're not going to put up 20/10 only playing 3 quarters a night.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

yeah it's been 5 games and bosh has been bosh. he has no inside game. there's no way the team can survive with 3 ball dominant players who all drive to the basket or shoot jumpers from outside. bosh still has no post game, and he's the odd man out because he's not as good as wade or lebron.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Pretty sure we're 'surviving' just fine.

Bosh will be fine. He's gonna get 12-15 points on jumpers alone, than with free throws and the like he should finish up around 17-18 i'd say. Depends on how many minutes he averages through the season, but he's had a few injury concerns the last couple years - not suprised if the Heat limit him to the low 30's this year if we can.

Once he gets comfortable i'm sure his efficiency will go up also.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

He doesn't look comfortable out there. He's a little too tentative about asserting himself offensively. Heck everyone on that team is except for Wade. As they get more comfortable with one another and realize the world isn't going to end if they are a little selfish from time to time--things will get better.

You have to remember when looking at his numbers right now that the Heat are playing at a pace near the bottom of the league. The turnovers have been slowing them down a lot, and just a lack of aggression in running the floor from Lebron.

It'll work out though. It's crazy how good they are already considering how bad they are playing still.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

LMAO...Bosh has been a demon on defense...they don't need him to pump in 20 a night and there are not enough possessions for him to get big rebounding numbers. He will not continue shooting 42.6% either. So his scoring will go up as he figures out where to best be effective. However, Miami's defense is like Detroit after they got Sheed. Bosh has a defensive rating of 91 compared to the 111 he posted last season.

I am sure Miami will take his improved defense over any difficulties he may be having on offense.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

Yep, out of the Big 3, Bosh is the one that has really used this opportunity to turn it up defensively.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

my projection in summer for this season was

30% worse than his last year.

Looks like 50% worse.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Quite a few average players get 20 mil+ a year, he gets 14 mil. Examples are last season's JO, Shaq and T-Mac, this season's Lewis.

Bosh is a very nice trade piece.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

the scoring doesnt matter to me so much but I was expecting more boards - still it's only 5 games


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I realize that it's only been five games but SO FAR Bosh has been playing worse than I expected. I knew that his numbers were going to go down considering that he's never had to play behind one (let alone two) players that were far superior to him in an offense that does not suit him in the least. He has been playing better defense than I originally thought but he's been rebounding like a little girl out there. 

Granted it's still (extremely) early and I'm sure he'll get his **** toghether, but he hasn't impressed me yet.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Oh and the Heat look really, really, good. It's going to be a fun season.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

I thought offensively he would be their Kukoc and only put in 14 a game. Funny how they are built (in terms of roles, not ability) like the late 90's Bulls.

Jordan- Wade
Pippen- James
Kukoc- Bosh
Rodman- Haslem
Longely- Ilgauskas
Kerr- Jones


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Jamel Irief said:


> I thought offensively he would be their Kukoc and only put in 14 a game. Funny how they are built (in terms of roles, not ability) like the late 90's Bulls.
> 
> Jordan- Wade *seriously?*
> Pippen- James *I'd say Lebron is a little better, but ok*
> ...


wow.......


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

I think you're missing the point e-monk.

Wade = dominant scorer
James = facilitator
Bosh = versatile outside shooting big
Haslem = rebounder

Not that hard to follow - don't take it so literal.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Wade County said:


> I think you're missing the point e-monk.
> 
> Wade = dominant scorer
> James = facilitator
> ...


I can do the same thing with the Bucks if that's all this is about - I mean if you want to make the most banal point possible that each team has a primary scorer, facilitator etc you might as well not be posting this because, no kidding, thanks for the elucidation

and ps - Bosh is a 'not versatile midrange shooting big' and if Rodman is the definition of 'a rebounder' then Haslem is a cricket player


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Wade County said:


> I think you're missing the point e-monk.
> 
> Wade = dominant scorer
> James = facilitator
> ...


Take it literal. I said in terms of roles, not ability. He must be illiterate since amongst his responses he told me James was a better player.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> I thought offensively he would be their Kukoc and only put in 14 a game. Funny how they are built (in terms of roles, not ability) like the late 90's Bulls.
> 
> Jordan- Wade
> Pippen- James
> ...


I'll take it a step further......................

Jamaal Magloire = Bill Wennington, and Dexter Pittman = Dickey Simpkins?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Eddie House is kind of like Jud Buechler?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Jamel Irief said:


> Take it literal. I said in terms of roles, not ability. He must be illiterate since amongst his responses he told me James was a better player.


except you're wrong in both your particulars and your comparisons 

Mike was so much more than dominant scorer 

your description of Pippen's role is as off-base as your description of Lebron's

Haslem is so much less than 'rebounder' and Rodman so much more than that

Bosh is exactly not at all like Kukoc 


your point is not just banal (no kidding every team in the league has guys playing some semblance of those roles) but wrong - historically there are other teams that make a better template in comparison to the current Heat

you choosing the bulls says more about what you dont know than anything else - you clearly dont understand how they or the Heat work as teams


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

e-monk said:


> except you're wrong in both your particulars and your comparisons
> 
> Mike was so much more than dominant scorer
> 
> ...


Ok. You barely describe how you feel the comparisons are inaccurate. No team is ever going to be an exact carbon copy of one that existed 15 years ago. You then proceed to say there are better comparisons but don't offer to name them. Also when did I describe Pippen or anybody elses role except Bosh?

If you just wanted to enter the thread and call me an idiot and offer nothing else I'm not going to waste any more posts on you. I have better things to do than trade insults with someone on the internet.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

-33- said:


> I'll take it a step further......................
> 
> Jamaal Magloire = Bill Wennington, and Dexter Pittman = Dickey Simpkins?


Wennington was a jump shooter and nothing else. Magloire is the complete opposite. Maybe a better comparison for Bosh would be Bison Dele.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Mike Miller is like Kukoc. Bosh is more like Horace Grant from the first three peat. But with less post defense. Both played on that elbow as a spot up shooting big. There's no one on the Heat(or in the league) that is like Rodman.

But it is clear that the Bulls dynasty is being used as a blueprint for this team. Two dominant wings, a bunch of fouls at center, 3 point shooting, a 4 that rebounds, and a solid sixth man.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

futuristxen said:


> Mike Miller is like Kukoc. Bosh is more like Horace Grant from the first three peat. But with less post defense. Both played on that elbow as a spot up shooting big. There's no one on the Heat(or in the league) that is like Rodman.
> 
> But it is clear that the Bulls dynasty is being used as a blueprint for this team. Two dominant wings, a bunch of fouls at center, 3 point shooting, a 4 that rebounds, and a solid sixth man.


blueprint? you actually think Riley sat down and thought now how can I turn us into the Bulls? I dont. I think he sat down and thought how can I get Lebron? can I get both? is it too much to hope for that I could land a 3rd guy?

and then Wade walked into his office and said hey by the way we've been talking about this for months do you think you can pull off the salaries?


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

The only problem is Erik Spoelstra does not = Phil Jackson. I'm sure Pat Riley will remedy that after the season, if not sooner.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

bosh isn't as good for the heat as kukoc was for the bulls.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

If they could get Bosh to play the way Horace Grant did during the first 3 peat, they'd be set. During the first 3-peat Horace Grant shot 55%,57% and 51% from the field, Bosh is shooting 45% last time I checked.


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