# Poll: What is our number one off season issue



## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

??


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

The Nuggets don't need a SG that will play 30+ MPG since they have Hodge (drafted to be the future SG), Vo (designated shooter) and Boykins (plays minutes at SG).

Finley is really the best fit because he could start, but doesn't need major minutes. Of the Free Agents that were available, only Ray Allen was a good enough player to change things.

Redd - Karl had him and while he likes him, he also wants defense in Denver (something that was absent from his Milwaukee teams). Plus he would have been too expensive.
Mobley - a chucker that had 1 good shooting season (his contract year) that was looking to make more than he was worth. He opted out of 7 million dollars for the 05-06 season to become a free agent.
Jaric - Why add someone that wants to play PG as a SG? Not really an upgrade at the position.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

you think you could convince scientists we dont have a hole in the ozone i suppose. 

Your going with a guy that cant play D. A rookie, and quite frankly a midget (and i do love the guy) and telling me, problem solved, we are contenders?



thats a big load of crap.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

nbanoitall said:


> you think you could convince scientists we dont have a hole in the ozone i suppose.
> 
> Your going with a guy that cant play D. A rookie, and quite frankly a midget (and i do love the guy) and telling me, problem solved, we are contenders?
> 
> thats a big load of crap.


Let me try this again.

The Nuggets don't need a starter at the SG like other teams because of the way the team is built. The team is constructed so that multiple players will get minutes at the position. The key is improving the situation over last season without blowing up the rest of the team.

Hodge > Buckner
Vo > Person

So far the Nuggets are on the right track. Unfortunately, Earl will get minutes at SG since, ignoring size, is his more natural position in the offense and the Nuggets are limited in the number of minutes that they have at the position.

Finley would fit perfectly, but other than him, it is about making the position better overall and not worrying about the starter.

The Bulls won 6 championships without worrying about the center position and the Lakers recently won 3 championships without worrying about the PF position. The Spurs just won a championship without a high quality center. Relax, SG is the 5th starter.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

Tinker with bench players...
still
Spurs> Nuggets


O **** we are screwed.

try it all you want. with your roster we are destined to have the spurs beat us again in the playoffs


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Short of Ray, Kobe or Tmac, no starting SG is going to put the Nuggets over the Spurs by himself.

This season is about developing under Karl and Melo making another jump in his career progression. Melo improving and Kenyon playing healthy are 2 huge improvements for the Nuggets that are internal improvements and that is what is going to take to beat the Spurs in the playoffs.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> Short of Ray, Kobe or Tmac, no starting SG is going to put the Nuggets over the Spurs by himself.
> 
> .


this is what i am contending. Adding Finley via free agency and Spre on the bench makes us conteders. even spending on talent like jones and jaric can give us another weapon to use.

you basically sound like you want to give up without even trying. lets give karl another weapon to use.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

nbanoitall said:


> this is what i am contending. Adding Finley via free agency and Spre on the bench makes us conteders. even spending on talent like jones and jaric can give us another weapon to use.
> 
> you basically sound like you want to give up without even trying. lets give karl another weapon to use.


Finley does make sense, but your other choices don't.

Spree is done, finished, over.

Jaric doesn't help unless Dre is getting moved. As a SG, he wouldn't be an improvement over Hodge.

Jones isn't better than Vo. Yes he is younger, but that is it. He had one amazing season for a role player, but he also shot 521 3 pointers and was the starting PG for Miami. He isn't a defensive improvement and certainly would be worse than Vo at defending SG's

This isn't fantasy basketball, just adding talent doesn't work. It has to be talent that fits the team.

As far as giving up before starting, it is rather that you have a very warped view of things. Essentially, if Kiki doesn't impliment your ideas, you ***** and moan and claim the Nuggets can't win. You didn't like what Kiki did last summer, so therefore saying that the Nuggets can't win with this team validates your point of view.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

spre is done in minnesota, he isnt done playing. he can give us 20 minutes off the bench.

the point is you dont even want to try.

we have an MLE. signing someone with talent is better than nobody. you just dont seem to even be willing to spend a few million to try.

im not sure how much of a nugget fan you are. you post a lot all over the board. but i can tell, we dont have the knicks payroll here. why not add another weapon. why not try. what do we have to loose?


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

nbanoitall said:


> spre is done in minnesota, he isnt done playing. he can give us 20 minutes off the bench.
> 
> the point is you dont even want to try.
> 
> ...


No, Spree is done period.

You have a strange interpretation of what I'm saying. Where have I said don't use the MLE? All of my comments revolve around not wasting the MLE. Most of the players you have mentioned I consider a waste of the MLE. Spree for anything over Vets minimum is waste. Jaric for the full MLE is a waste (for the Nuggets unless Dre is going out in another trade). Damon Jones for as much as he will cost is a waste. If Damon only cost 2 million, it would be different, but he would take almost all of the MLE.

There is such a thing as team chemistry. Spending a few million _just to try_ for a player that doesn't fit and will ***** and moan about playing time isn't a good move. *Smart* GM's don't just add weapons for the sake of adding them and that is what you are advocating.

The Nuggets, with the expected internal improvements, are a lot closer to competing for a championship than you believe. Don't confuse not liking any of your ideas with not wanting to spend money or improve the team.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> No, Spree is done period.
> 
> good move. *Smart* GM's don't just add weapons for the sake of adding them and that is what you are advocating.
> 
> ...


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

nbanoitall said:


> cpawfan said:
> 
> 
> > No, Spree is done period.
> ...


I expect that Spree will be on someone's roster and not contribute anything of value. So no, I wouldn't trade Eddie for him

I said that Damon would have helped last season in the playoffs against the Spurs, but I also said that a healthy Vo would be just as valuable. So no, I'm not flip flopping, you aren't reading very carefully.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> a healthy Vo would be just as valuable. .


on one side of the ball maybe.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

nbanoitall said:


> on one side of the ball maybe.


Who on the Spurs could Damon Jones defend?


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> Who on the Spurs could Damon Jones defend?


id much rather have jones on anyone guard/ small forward, (excluding Ginobili). than I would Vo. Not saying jones is great. just saying he is better than lenard.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

I would have to agree with nbanoitall in that we need a SG.

My observations on the current Guards for the Nuggets.

*Hodge*, while a nice prospect thats all he is at this point. Hodge did some good things in NC State, but he also had a tendency of dissapearing for long stretches during the college season. He also needs to work on his body, we all know he is very thin and the last thing we need is another guard to go down to injury ala lenard last season. Side note about Hodge I don't think he will be the answer for the Nuggets long term and was very dissapointed when the Nuggets drafted him.

*Boykins*, like Iverson I believe Boykins has a shooting guard mentality, but has a point guard body. I like the spark boykins can give coming off the bench but there is no way you can tell me boykins can guard SG's in the NBA, he will get abused on post ups and alley oop plays constantly. He needs to work on his passing and be the back up point guard for the Nuggets. I do like him though and want to keep him.

*Miller*, very underrated player for the Nuggets. Why people are not high on this guy I just don't get it. To me he is a total package. Under George Karl his assists started going up like crazy. He's very intelligent. A strong rebounder and a big point guard that can hold his own. A very good driver and finisher and a decent mid range game. His outside and 3pt range needs work other than that though this guy is a keeper!

*Lenard*, Let this guy go in my opinino and use him as trade bait to get someone else. Why you might ask? His defense is atrocious and he is getting old. He already missed a season due to injury, he isnt a good rebounder. His better days are behind him, he had his moment its time to cut ties and let the many continue his journey with someone else.

*Buckner*, To me Buckner is trade bait as well, I like his defense and he showed he can score and play an over all good game, all I know of him is what I saw last season, so maybe I'm underrating this guy, give me your analysis of him if you like.

*DerMarr*, Well I have a bad feeling he is going to get traded. It seems coach Karl isnt to high on him, but never the less I find him to be exciting and to have a lot of potential. His explosiveness is not to be taken lightly. He has good ball handling skills and a decent jump shot. I suppose his weakness is his defense. I hope though we can find a way to keep Johnson a Nugget.

So in my little break down up above none of our guards are great shooters/slashers and experienced. We need a good all around shooting guard and I'm not even asking for the big name free agent as I was hoping the Nuggets would land just an upgrade from the talent we have to choose from right now on our squad.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

im good with that analysis. cpawfan, even the moves you proposed arent "little bench tinkerings". 

I really do feel like i was the first person to realize this issue long before vo lenard even went down. Now i do understand that building a team is a process, so i'm not livid right now. however i do expect progress. meaning if all we can get is Damon Jones, i expect to see him on the roster next year over greg buckner.

i know the nuggets are high on greg buckner so we will see what happens. I'm very much interested in Jarvis Hayes, and I do believe the wizards would trade him.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

nbanoitall said:


> im good with that analysis. cpawfan, even the moves you proposed arent "little bench tinkerings".
> 
> I really do feel like i was the first person to realize this issue long before vo lenard even went down. Now i do understand that building a team is a process, so i'm not livid right now. however i do expect progress. meaning if all we can get is Damon Jones, i expect to see him on the roster next year over greg buckner.
> 
> i know the nuggets are high on greg buckner so we will see what happens. I'm very much interested in Jarvis Hayes, and I do believe the wizards would trade him.


I'm aware that the moves I offered in the other thread aren't little. As I said, it was a trade for the sake of making a trade.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

23AirJordan said:


> I would have to agree with nbanoitall in that we need a SG.
> 
> My observations on the current Guards for the Nuggets.
> 
> ...


If you don't like Hodge, I can understand your perspective. On the other hand, I was very excited that the Nuggets were able to land him fully expect him to overcome the UNC/NCState bias and earn the majority of the minutes at the SG position by Feb.

After you get past the fact that he is a great story, I don't like Earl "drible for 20 seconds" Boykins for Karl's system. He appeared impressive at times last season and with his silly comercial, his trade value will never be higher. Now is the time to move him.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

i consider earl boykins one of our core players. kind of like what bobby jackson provided the kings. certainly they are different players, but they are high energy players that come off the bench to put the ball in the hoop.

I think earl will pass more this year. He just needs a running mate to come off the bench with and it will be easier for him.

He made too many last second clutch shots for the nuggets to want to trade him. his contract is great. this aint football, cuz if it was he would be holding out. lets enjoy him.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

nbanoitall said:


> i consider earl boykins one of our core players. kind of like what bobby jackson provided the kings. certainly they are different players, but they are high energy players that come off the bench to put the ball in the hoop.
> 
> I think earl will pass more this year. He just needs a running mate to come off the bench with and it will be easier for him.
> 
> He made too many last second clutch shots for the nuggets to want to trade him. his contract is great. this aint football, cuz if it was he would be holding out. lets enjoy him.


You complain that the Nuggets can't win a championship as built, yet consider Earl part of the core. That is a serious logical disconnect right there.

If Earl doesn't pass more this season, it won't matter who is on the court with him.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> If Earl doesn't pass more this season, it won't matter who is on the court with him.


i'm not arguing that. we need him to close out quarters. You also should know I consider Andre Miller tradable, obviously because i proposed a trade with him in it. Earl Boykins has a role. He is a 6th man of the year candidate every year now and he has a fair contract.

We have MLE money, draft picks, and Najera. We can improve by using one of those commodities.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

cpawfan said:


> If you don't like Hodge, I can understand your perspective. On the other hand, I was very excited that the Nuggets were able to land him fully expect him to overcome the UNC/NCState bias and earn the majority of the minutes at the SG position by Feb.
> 
> After you get past the fact that he is a great story, I don't like Earl "drible for 20 seconds" Boykins for Karl's system. He appeared impressive at times last season and with his silly comercial, his trade value will never be higher. Now is the time to move him.


cpawfan I agree that Hodge has the opportunity to take over the SG position, and maybe I was being a bit to critical of him. The reason I guess I was dissapointed and why I have had a hard nose opinion of Hodge is because I use to actually be a big fan of his when he played for NC State. He showed many flashes of becoming a big time player and he still has that potential. Just so many games last year I felt like he dissappeared and was such a nonfactor,I was dissapointed. I guess thats what excpectations can do to you. At any rate I actually hope Im wrong about Hodge and that he has a good career. Although in saying that I still want us to get a solid more all around experienced shooting guard. Like a Michael finely for example. Althought it seems a lot of teams are interested in him.

I also agree that Boykins can at times over dribble, but if you think back to the post-season and regular-season. Boykins was a big reason getting us back in to games, also hit some nice clutch shots. For example when Boykins hit that huge 3 that could of propelled us to a win against the Spurs in the post season, but it was stripped down to a 2pt basket by the ref. Boykins has talent and can help a team and make a real difference if used correctly. To me though he needs to become a better playmaker and not get stuck in the air or in the paint or run down the shot clock. I believe under Coach Karl Boykins can become a better distributor.


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## Timmons (May 25, 2005)

23AirJordan said:


> *Miller*, To me he is a *total package*. Under George Karl his assists started going up like crazy. His outside and 3pt range needs work other than that though this guy is a keeper!


You just cannot consider him the total package if he can't shoot a 3-pointer better than a 4-year-old kid. I like all of his other aspects though. Guy is getting much better under Curious George.

Good overall analysis on everybody! 

I too am skeptical of Hodge, but I see the glass as half-full in his case. I'm not ready to dismiss him at all.

Buckner should be gone. Unless Vo is a trade asset he should have been bought out, but maybe he can come off the bench and hit some big shots w/ dishes from Boykins.

I have a love/hate relationship w/ ole Earl. The guy comes in and hits some jumpers and maybe occationally a 3, but then he thinks he's Michael Jordan 5'5'' style and tries to take over. He almost always starts bricking shots after that. I think this is Earl's make or break year as well. If we don't see major improvements in him than his 3-year stint as a Nugget will be over. He does have a little contract and it will disappear if he doesn't stop dribbling.

I think a running mate for Earl w/ help as well so he doesn't feel he needs to take over.

As far as finishing quarters goes: THAT SHOULD BE CARMELO'S JOB FROM THIS POINT FORWARD! It's time. You had your rookie year then the sophomore semi-slump and then the burst after Karl came in. No more excuses, it's time to step up and make this team your own.

It will be interesting to see how this all takes shape this week. I think this week will determine a lot for Denver now that Fin is free. 

In KIKI I'll trust...until Friday! :banana:


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

> As far as finishing quarters goes: THAT SHOULD BE CARMELO'S JOB FROM THIS POINT FORWARD! It's time. You had your rookie year then the sophomore semi-slump and then the burst after Karl came in. No more excuses, it's time to step up and make this team your own.


I couldn't agree more with you!

From the flashes and determination I saw in Melo after last years playoffs I think it's safe to say Carmelo will be the main man this year for the Nuggets and not just talking the talk, but he will be ready to walk the walk. I excpect big things out of him.

My Carmelo stat prediction for this up coming season -24ppg 6rpg 4apg

Also I believe his defense will get better and his ability to find his teamates.


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## Timmons (May 25, 2005)

23AirJordan said:


> My Carmelo stat prediction for this up coming season -24ppg 6rpg 4apg


I'd like to see around the same, but up his rebounds to 7 per game and that 4 increase in point average will be attainable.

I'd also like to see him shoot in the 46-48% range.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

ok i'm fairly confident the majority of nuggets posters feel we need a starting shooting guard for real. Anyone fan who hasnt voted plz vote.


If we can come up with something good enough someone should email it to a sportswriter or something.


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