# Raps Sign Rafer Alston



## mcgreedy (Oct 6, 2003)

*Raps Sign Alston to a HUGE CONTRACT*

This just in
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=1835443 

6 year $29 million.

WAY TOO MUCH


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## mcgreedy (Oct 6, 2003)

BTW, Vince and Rafer never got along with each other, does this indicate a VC trade?

Welcome home Paul Pierce:grinning:


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Holy crap, i thought GMs were going to stop paying out in the long term for marginal talent but I guess I was wrong- Juwan Howard, Foyle, and now Alston. 

I'm not really against the signing as I was expecting to use up (most of) our MLE on a backup/marginal backup. Hey, I was pushing for Keyon Dooling who has proven nothing compared to Alston. The thing is the 6 years but I like what Rafer brings to the table now that he's developed his 3-point shot (despite his struggles in the playoffs). 

On Babcock's part I think this shows quite a lot of dedication to the running game that Mitchell would like to implement. Rafer can break out pretty well and finish with beauty passes. 

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/rafer_alston/index.html?nav=page

I didn't realize he played 32 mpg last season. ~10-3-5 and 3:1 turnovers. Those are definitely better than I initially thought. But number 8 IN THE LEAGUE for 3-pointers made...

It took a contract that doesn't exactly make me jump for joy but Rafer + Alston combo makes for a pretty solid guard combination. It appeared weak in 2002/2003 when Rafer was trying to run with one of the very worst crews in the league. He was good with the Heat and I think our Raptors are capable of playing better ball than Miami did last season.

Milt Palacio is being replaced with one of the better shooting point guards in the league- 38% from beyond the arc in the last three years. 

We now have 2 point guards that were in the top 15 in assist to turnover in 2003/2004. 

At least superficially, Babcock has "righted the ship" in his brief tenure. GG should have held onto Rafer but wasn't able to at the time. Babcock drafted our center (who started his Raptor career tonight with 5 fouls) and has signed the sharpshooting point guard we needed to round out our core. We have a real team around a healthy Vince Carter for the first time in a long time. 

Remember the offensive displays following the trade last season? Making us think that we could be the "Mavs of the East"? That's the type of basketball we could be playing all season long. This team has a long way to come and I don't think we're (really) ready for the playoffs just yet (because building through the draft will be our only course other than trading VC). However, I think Babcock is putting a solid product on the court next year- a beloved superstar and a star bigman propect and a capable cast.

This is pretty much our team. Yell and his expiring contract should stay on. VC will buy into Babcock and Mitchell and his dreams of (MJ-like) loyalty should live on for the time being. For the first time in a long time I think I can say with confidence that the Raptors are going to be fun to watch. EVERYONE can score- have we EVER had a team like that?

Now, if only we had Shawn Marion, we'd be set.


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

Ugh. I am officially off the Babcock bandwagon. 5 mil per year for a 28yr old player who in his best season avg'd 10ppg, 4.5assts on under 40% shooting from the field. He's not even a defensive presence. I like Rafer but at about half of what he's getting in this deal.

Babcock is heading down the same road Grunwald was...which inevitably leads to the land of mediocrity.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

im supporting his contract cuz i know how much him and his family struggled. i know his brother is goin nuts right about now.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

29mil for a PG with no jumper? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mr_B</b>!
> 29mil for a PG with no jumper? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


What part of 38% from beyond the arc don't you understand? Rafer his 161 3s last year; Milt Palacio hit 4. Baron Davis only hit 25 more 3s than Skip last season but shot 4.4% worse.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

As for him and Vince not getting along, where did that come from? How many games did they even play together?


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

That is an awesome pickup.

Alston is arguably the best PG available.

He has consistently improved his game each year.

Although his apg seems lowish at 4.5 in 31mpg, keep in mind how often the ball was run through Odom and Wade. (And how Alston adjusted to this and set up for the catch and shoot.) 

He can flat-out dish the thing. And his turnovers are very low.

He can push the ball upcourt, and he can dagger them when Vince isos and kicks it to him. 

I am pretty sure that the first year of the contract is for a bit less than the full MLE. That little bit less means we can spend it to top up the Minimum to get a center before the bottom of the barrel.

We are talking about $4.4M first year I would guess. Suspect the MLE this year will be close to $5M.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

came out of nowhere but i'm happy!!!!!!!!


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

*Re: Raps Sign Alston to a HUGE CONTRACT*



> Originally posted by <b>mcgreedy</b>!
> This just in
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=1835443
> 
> ...


http://www.tsn.ca/nba/news_story.asp?id=90328

Holy **** 

Babcock is obviosly not interested in making this a defensive team the first two players he has gone after or both sub par at defending their position.

skip at 5 mil per year may not be bad though if he keep getting better.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

yeah finally rafer is bak home he deserves the moeny he's got maybe u wont think it now but he will again improve next season imo!!!!!!!!!!!!

:grinning: :grinning: :grinning: :grinning: :grinning: :grinning: :grinning:


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

:jawdrop: :whofarted :nonono:


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> It took a contract that doesn't exactly make me jump for joy but *Rafer + Alston* combo makes for a pretty solid guard combination. It appeared weak in 2002/2003 when Rafer was trying to run with one of the very worst crews in the league. He was good with the Heat and I think our Raptors are capable of playing better ball than Miami did last season.


:grinning:


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

I believe Alston broke the record for most consecutive games with atleast 1 trey last season. Do I think $5 million a year is too much? Not really, considering the Raptors had to make some aggressive moves to show Vince they were interested in building a winning team, and getting a PG was a priority. I thought Damon Jones would of been a better fit to this team for a much cheaper price... but Alston it is.

Not sure how Rafer Alston will be any better than Jameer Nelson, who they could of drafted at the 8 spot, then spent half of $30 million on Mark Blount. Raptors have alot of offensive firepower from the perimeter, now they need to work on developing Bosh and Araujo's inside game.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> I believe Alston broke the record for most consecutive games with atleast 1 trey last season. Do I think $5 million a year is too much? Not really, considering the Raptors had to make some aggressive moves to show Vince they were interested in building a winning team, and getting a PG was a priority.


Alvin, JYD, AD and Dream's deals were enough in that respect.

And if you think Mark Blount is going to get 15 million look at Adonal Foyle's deal.


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## mavhaz (Nov 17, 2003)

While i'm not sure about the length of this deal, Babs signed a solid, steady pg who can run a offense. He also does another thing some players on this team refused to do, which is go to the bucket. GG should have never let him go in the first place for Milt the Stiff


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

> Milt Palacio is being replaced with one of the better shooting point guards in the league- 38% from beyond the arc in the last three years.


Dont forgot....37% overall. Seems like he can hit the open 3 but when he has to create his own shot his shooting percentage plummets.


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

This also means that the Raps will overpay to resign MoPete since I can't see Mo accepting a deal worth less than Rafer's. 7mil per year anyone? :no:


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

This just further proves that Babcock is simply a carbon copy of Glen Grunwald.

Rafer was more than willing to take less than half of the MLE to stay in Miami. He had said publicly that he was looking for backup dollars and knew that Miami needed part of the MLE to get a C.

This is an Alvin Williams typed deal, a deal that everyone on this board is *****ing about by the way, and unless their is a TEAM option after 4 or 5 years it will come back to bite us.

I like Rafer and don't mind the signing. But the price??? 

He had better have learned to play some D down there with Riley and VanGundy. And he had better knock down the open J's that Milt could not last year.

Babcock must have spoken to the other PG's like Damon Jones and Carlos Arroyo and determined that we had no chance to sign them. Fisher and Hudson were never really an option as contending teams were pursuing them.

We couldn't go into the season without a PG but I would prefer to have gotten one with our second round pick or find an undrafted gem on the cheap.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SkywalkerAC</b>!
> 
> 
> What part of 38% from beyond the arc don't you understand? Rafer his 161 3s last year; Milt Palacio hit 4. Baron Davis only hit 25 more 3s than Skip last season but shot 4.4% worse.


LMAO, our first backup/starting pointguard only hit 4 3-pointer for an entire season?


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

spent to much, like Alston but I guess with the ridiculious contracts Foyle and Okur have signed it meant that Blount would cost that much as well.
Same amount Hudson would want.
Now with most of our MLE spent on Alston looks like Hunter is the cheapest C we can afford or does this smell like Marshell/Murray will be traded for a C.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>djmyte</b>!
> 
> 
> Dont forgot....37% overall. Seems like he can hit the open 3 but when he has to create his own shot his shooting percentage plummets.


37 percent isnt that bad. he's definitely being overpaid tho. 5 mil a year... actually, it prolly start out at like 3.5 and goes up to 6.5, which is very similar to AW's contract. i like the acquisition, he pushes the ball up the floor and can clearly finish (if you've ever watched the mixtape tour show), he's obviously creative with the ball (once again), and he's found a 3-point shot... he's just a little overpaid. i think this could be a sigh that vince is gone tho, they didn't get along well and if vince were to leave and the raps didn't get a superstar in return but got young talent, skip could keep fans around. and remember he can still get better, he is 28. he may up being the _starting_ pg by the end of his contract. 33 is just about the age where u leave your prime.

..... oh yeah, one last thing. this means the and 1 mixtape tour is coming to Toronto! i missed it last year and was so pissed when they said they weren't coming back this year.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

A deal like this takes the Raps ever closer to that NBA purgatory called mediocrity.

Right now I'll give Rob the benefit of the doubt to make some more moves. This is severe overpayment. Especially on term.


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

Definitely too much money (or too much length for that money), but he'll be a good player for the Raptors. That said, is it worth the play he'll bring for the cost it'll take? I'm no Raptors guy so I can't say for sure, but this feels like another Kevin Ollie type of situation to me (journeyman backup PG has a solid year, gets big contract they've been wanting for years, by the end of the first year you want the contract axed).


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jae05</b>!
> ..... oh yeah, one last thing. this means the and 1 mixtape tour is coming to Toronto! i missed it last year and was so pissed when they said they weren't coming back this year.


damn, juss remembered skip isn't on the team anymore... the deal isn't so bad tho. it's no steve nash. nash's contract has allan houston written all over it.


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## monkeyman44 (Feb 29, 2004)

:no: over the last three years the raps have overpaid free agents, it might be the only way for player to want to come to Toronto i guess


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## MentalPowerHouse (Oct 9, 2003)

He might be slightly overpaid, but even so we are talking maybe 2 mil too much a year, no back breaker. And as a marginal playoff team such a signing can make a big difference.


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## Apollo (Jun 3, 2004)

Here's a few reasons why I don't like this contract, keeping in mind that for now it's just a report and has not been confirmed as of yet:

1. It's overpaying, particularly if Rafer would have taken less, and considering that it takes up the majority of our MLE, as has already been pointed out.

2. It's way too long. 6 years for a guy who's only played one full season as a contributor in the NBA, his years in Milwaukee I think were spent mostly on the bench.

3. Could we not have had this guy for less than a million last year? I know this is a weak argument, but it makes the contract look even worse when you consider he would have re-signed with us last season for practically nothing.

4. If this was done to somehow appease Vince, that's horrible. Player moves should be made to help the ball club, period.

Having said that, I'm glad to have Skip back, particularly if it means we'll never see Palacio again. However, the new regime has now reached on their first draft pick and over paid for someone who may not even be their starting point guard...I'll give Babcock the benefit of the doubt though...it's hard to negotiate a low salary for someone who had better numbers than any of the guys you currently have...how do you respond when Skip's agent can easily point to Alvin's contract?


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## Courtking031 (Jul 7, 2004)

Wow! The Raptors overpaid Alston...but I kind of understand. Alston is a great 3-point shooter, and the Raptors need a PG. I think they should have used this money and go after a more quility PG say in Brent Barry or tried to make a run at Nash (to late now) but I would love to see Nash back in Canada...But the Suns are now paying him to when he's 35.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Apollo</b>!
> Having said that, I'm glad to have Skip back, particularly if it means we'll never see Palacio again. However, the new regime has now reached on their first draft pick and over paid for someone who may not even be their starting point guard...I'll give Babcock the benefit of the doubt though...it's hard to negotiate a low salary for someone who had better numbers than any of the guys you currently have...how do you respond when Skip's agent can easily point to Alvin's contract?


and they basically got the same contract


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## Dj_Danny_Dee (Aug 8, 2003)

i'm hoping rafer will turn out like what nash turned out for dallas.
WHen dallas traded for nash, nash wasn't the big time pg he is now, but since arriving to dallas he has become one of the top pgs.
Let's hope lightning strikes again.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

Once again, the Raptors are overpaying a serviceable player both on dollars per year and on length of contract. Surely, of all teams, the Raptors should have learned not to make this particular mistake. Remember how we regretted signing Alvin, JYD and the Dream for this exact type of contract? If we're going to overpay someone on dollars per year, then overpay them and make it a short contract. Nobody in the NBA should be signing anybody to a long term contract unless its for small dollars or its a top caliber player. This kind of deal is what will keep the Raptors locked into 7th-10th position in the conference until they break the cycle and stop signing them.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>MentalPowerHouse</b>!
> He might be slightly overpaid, but even so we are talking maybe 2 mil too much a year, no back breaker. And as a marginal playoff team such a signing can make a big difference.


When he's 33 raking in 5+ million you may have a different opinion.


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## EBP2K2 (Jun 23, 2003)

it's a good pickup... Alston definitely improved his game last year, especially distributing the ball...

perhaps not worth 29mil, but with the market as is, with EVERYONE ELSE overpaying, you have no choice...


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> When he's 33 raking in 5+ million you may have a different opinion.


thats not that bad. your just about leaving your prime at 33 and thats when the contract ends. its a much better contract than okur's, foyle's, camby's and soon to be, ginobili's. its not quite being 36 and recieving 12 million (nash) or about 37 and getting like 8 or 9 million (juwon howard). i like the pick up and i hope skip does well.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

4 mill/season would'nt have been as overpaid considering he was willing to stay with Maimi for less.

But whats done is done, we now gotta trade Lamond Murray for a avg C i.e Kurt Thomas (if he is not a FA) or some like him.


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## DAllatt (Jun 13, 2003)

It could be better it could be worse. what is Skip's history with injuries? One thing to keep in mind that he may be 28 but his body hasn't been enduring the wear and tear of an NBA season for 4-5 years. 

He'll fit in nice with the run and gun. I really hope this doesn't screw us


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

> perhaps not worth 29mil, but with the market as is, with EVERYONE ELSE overpaying, you have no choice...


Just because everyone else is overpaying doesn't mean you should as well. Rafer Alston will not be the difference between us and a championship. He won't even be a full time starting pg for us. 5mil per year for 6 years is ridiculously high for a 28 year old part time starter.

The Raptors need to think about CHAMPIONSHIP not being competitive. Damnit, we fired Grunwald and hired his long lost non-identical twin!


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>DAllatt</b>!
> It could be better it could be worse. what is Skip's history with injuries? One thing to keep in mind that he may be 28 but his body hasn't been enduring the wear and tear of an NBA season for 4-5 years.
> 
> He'll fit in nice with the run and gun. I really hope this doesn't screw us


also, 28 isn't that old. having him on the break throwing crazy alley oops to mopete and vince. its what i expect, prolly wont get it. but now we have a good transition team cuz all five starter can get down the floor, since bosh and araujo appearantly run very well for their size. also, i expect mopete and moiso to be our two main guys off the bench and they run well too. throw in bonner and murray to spot up every once in a while and our run and gun offence will look damn good.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>djmyte</b>!
> 
> 
> Just because everyone else is overpaying doesn't mean you should as well. Rafer Alston will not be the difference between us and a championship. He won't even be a full time starting pg for us. 5mil per year for 6 years is ridiculously high for a 28 year old part time starter.
> ...


now be realistic, we cannot win a championship with AW and jalen rose still around. skip is not that bad. for now, i will give babs the benefit of the doubt.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

You guys are jumping at the money, and not even sure the exact terms of the contract.

6 years - 29 million doesn't automatically mean close to 5 million per year.

If anything, it more than likely starts at 2.5-3 million with pay raises.

This was a steal.

The Heat were banking on him coming back for similar money.


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

> now be realistic, we cannot win a championship with AW and jalen rose still around. skip is not that bad. for now, i will give babs the benefit of the doubt.


Exactly. We aren't going to win a championship with our current roster and like I said Alston will not be the difference so why complicate your cap situation even more? 3 or 4 years from now Alston's contract may be the difference between us signing a quality free agent or not.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

I predicted a couple of months ago that Skip would get most of the MLE, and a lot of people told me that was stupid. Guess they were wrong.

It's scary to give a big contract to a journeyman who had a career year. This could be a Kevin Ollie type situation. But if Alston keeps playing like he did this year, he'll be worth that contract and more. I like him, and I think this might be what the Raptors needed to do to get back to the playoffs.

It IS a lot of money, but instead of complaining about it, maybe you should consider that that's the way things are in the NBA these days, and there's really no other way to add proven talent to your team. I made a thread on the NBA board where I questioned the conventional wisdom that everyone is getting ovepaid this summer. The Raptors board has a lot of good posters and this situation affects your team so it'd be nice if some of you would comment on it.

http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105221&forumid=2


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

> This was a steal.


Alston said he was willing to return to Miami for backup type money. 

A steal for the Raps? No. A steal for Alston? Yea.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>djmyte</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly. We aren't going to win a championship with our current roster and like I said Alston will not be the difference so why complicate your cap situation even more? 3 or 4 years from now Alston's contract may be the difference between us signing a quality free agent or not.


maybe there's a bigger picture. maybe vince will be traded for young talent and alston will just be a temporary guy to bring fans in until bosh becomes a star and can do it on his own. im trying to see things from a wider perspective. on the other hand, babs may have just signed skip to be our starter.


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## djmyte (Jun 10, 2002)

It doesn't matter if Vince is being traded or not, Rafer at 5mil per for 6 years is wrong in any situation.

A 6 year contract doesn't = temporary.


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## Ballyhoo (May 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jae05</b>!
> thats not that bad. your just about leaving your prime at 33 and thats when the contract ends. its a much better contract than okur's, foyle's, camby's and soon to be, ginobili's. its not quite being 36 and recieving 12 million (nash) or about 37 and getting like 8 or 9 million (juwon howard). i like the pick up and i hope skip does well.


:no: 

Prime is 26-29, and Alston turns 28 this month. Terrell Brandon was done by age 31, Isiah Thomas by 32, Kenny Smith by 31, Spud Webb by 32, BJ Armstrong by 32. And all those guys were much better in their prime than Alston.

What you see is what you get. He's not horrible, but to pay that much for a backup to Alvin is crazy. It will add some nice depth this year, but in a couple of years we are going to be cringing when we look at that contract. What do we do if we draft a good PG like Chris Paul next year and we already have two PGs committed to looooong term big $ deals?


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>djmyte</b>!
> It doesn't matter if Vince is being traded or not, Rafer at 5mil per for 6 years is wrong in any situation.
> 
> A 6 year contract doesn't = temporary.


superstars aren't made overnight, it may very well take bosh four or five years to get there. and it isn't 5 per year, it will start out at around 2.5-3.5 mil. depending on how big the MLE is, we can still get someone else. and skip isnt that bad. he is only 28 and can still improve. we may have had no choice. with the signings of okur, camby and foyle, guys like blount, hudson, fisher, and even skip may have felt they deserved the same. and like one poster has pointed out, how can the raps say they can afford to pay AW this much, but they cant pay the same to skip. fisher appearantly is going to houston, and damon jones and troy hudson may just not want to come.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballyhoo</b>!
> 
> 
> :no:
> ...


its like 27-31. and alvins got an option coming up in only 2 years.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Oh come on guys, do you think you would have gotten him for a million. Lets be realistic Miami wasnt the only one offering big bucks for his services, yes $29mill is a lot but his starting salary will prolly be in the $2-$3mill range. Babs is trying to build a team that will compete right away, lets not forget that the way GMS have been doling out money this year has driven market price crazy. Good luck to Alston and welcome to T-dot


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> Oh come on guys, do you think you would have gotten him for a million. Lets be realistic Miami wasnt the only one offering big bucks for his services, yes $29mill is a lot *but his starting salary will prolly be in the $2-$3mill range.* Babs is trying to build a team that will compete right away, lets not forget that the way GMS have been doling out money this year has driven market price crazy. Good luck to Alston and welcome to T-dot


you get it too! skip doesn't eat up our entire MLE, only about half. meaning we can still get another solid free agent.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

If he play like he plays in the Playoff with the Heat this is a good decision.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jae05</b>!
> 
> 
> its like 27-31. and alvins got an option coming up in only 2 years.


Yeah, his option. You think he's going to leave all those millions on the table in his condition?


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> Oh come on guys, do you think you would have gotten him for a million. Lets be realistic Miami wasnt the only one offering big bucks for his services, yes $29mill is a lot but his starting salary will prolly be in the $2-$3mill range. Babs is trying to build a team that will compete right away, lets not forget that the way GMS have been doling out money this year has driven market price crazy. Good luck to Alston and welcome to T-dot


That's not the point. If you can't get him for a reasonable deal, don't get him at all. If you could not get him for 3 years and 9 million then I would have left him to the Heat.

Overpay for Alvin or lose him. I'll take the latter today.

Overpay for JYD or lose him. I'll take the latter today.

Overpay for AD or lose him. I'll take the latter today.

Overpay for Dream or lose him. I'll take the latter today.

I know we paid them to keep Vince. Given the results of ALL signings it would have been better to trade Vince at his peak rather than extend him and let all these stiffs go. (Believe me they weighed whether or not to trade him that summer way back when)

Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. Fool me a FIFTH time, Choose a new bloody team.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

i would not be surprised to alvin moved out maybe with VC now


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Do some simple calculations guys.

This deal is not starting at 2.5 or 3 mill.


A 6 year deal.

Lets say it starts at 4 mill, with 10% raises. (Using less of a raise would mean a higher starting salary)

yr1 4 mill
2 - 4.4
3 - 4.84
4 - 5.3
5 - 5.85
6 - 6.44

Total would be 30.83

So Rafer is starting at just under 4 mill. Easy.

Ending at 6 mill in his last two years is not exactly cap friendly.
Better be a team option for year 6 at least.

So our only money to spend is the LLE at 1.6 mill since that is more than what we have left on our MLE. Rafer took it all.


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## arcade_rida (Jun 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballyhoo</b>!
> 
> 
> :no:
> ...


Yea but what about Jeff Horneck, John Stockton, Mark Jackson. All these players were still great even though they were old and couldn't run and give it up we aint going to get Chris Paul....The Bobcats are likely to get him gezzz.



aww I think this was a great signing maybe 5 million too much but hey I can live with that.


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## Ballyhoo (May 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> That's not the point. If you can't get him for a reasonable deal, don't get him at all. If you could not get him for 3 years and 9 million then I would have left him to the Heat.


Exactly! Look at the teams who are overpaying marginal FAs, it's the lottery teams. What are the contenders doing? Detroit is letting Okur go, and it looks like the Spurs are letting Manu go, rather than overpay him. Maybe this explains why Detroit and San Antonio are good and Golden State, Toronto, Chicago, Orlando, etc. are bad. The GMs in Detroit and SA understand how to manage their cap space and get the most bang for the buck.


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## arcade_rida (Jun 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> That's not the point. If you can't get him for a reasonable deal, don't get him at all. If you could not get him for 3 years and 9 million then I would have left him to the Heat.
> ...


Isn't it easier to be said then done. We tried to trade T-Mac but nobody took him off our hands before he left as a free agent??? Why becasue they knew he was going to leave for one of the florida teams. Damn I am sure we had no choice, I would have signed all of them to keep Vince..... There would have been takers but because he was in his last year of the rookie contract nobody would have gave full VALUE


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## Ballyhoo (May 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arcade_rida</b>!
> 
> 
> Yea but what about Jeff Horneck, John Stockton, Mark Jackson. All these players were still great even though they were old and couldn't run and give it up we aint going to get Chris Paul....The Bobcats are likely to get him gezzz.
> ...


Are you seriously saying Rafer Alston is comparable to John Stockton and Jeff Hornacek?  

Besides Hornacek's numbers started declining at age 31, he was below his career average for assists every year after 30. The fact that he was so great in his prime meant that even in decline he was still very good. Same for Stockton, his last 7-8 years were significant declines from his prime.


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## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

Well I am happy that they signed him. He was good here before, and even better last year in Miami. So he's not great as creating his own shot, big deal - most of his shots will be kick outs from Vince and Bosh anyway. His job is to create for therws and he is very good at that. I want to see him lobin' it up for Bosh!

AS for the contract - well we needed somebody, and lets see the price that Hudson, Fisher, Arroyo go for.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballyhoo</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly! Look at the teams who are overpaying marginal FAs, it's the lottery teams. What are the contenders doing? Detroit is letting Okur go, and it looks like the Spurs are letting Manu go, rather than overpay him. Maybe this explains why Detroit and San Antonio are good and Golden State, Toronto, Chicago, Orlando, etc. are bad. The GMs in Detroit and SA understand how to manage their cap space and get the most bang for the buck.


well they have the advantage of still having a lot of cap we didnt have that much to work with. Okur was not often used in the finals so that is why they might be letting him go. PLus they also need the cap room to resign rasheed. We dont have to sign anyone except for mopete who i think we still might be able to get.


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## Dave-C. (Jun 25, 2002)

As a Heat Fan i have to say not a good deal by Toronto

Don't get me wrong i loved skip here but only as a bench player or part time starter.

Especially after the play offs i really can live with losing Rafer , since he was awful and his shot was away big time.

Well i hope he does good for you guys , he also really improved as a defender this year.

Anyways if u guys would've signed him as a backup i'd say steal but as a starter i really think you guys could've done better with your MLE.


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## arcade_rida (Jun 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballyhoo</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you seriously saying Rafer Alston is comparable to John Stockton and Jeff Hornacek?
> ...


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Obviously he aint no John Stockton and Jeff Hornacek... 



> Originally posted by <b>Ballyhoo</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Prime is 26-29, and Alston turns 28 this month. Terrell Brandon was done by age 31, Isiah Thomas by 32, Kenny Smith by 31, Spud Webb by 32, BJ Armstrong by 32. And all those guys were much better in their prime than Alston.


I guess he is Isiah Thomas or more like Kenny Smith  :laugh: :laugh: or you know what Spudd Webb 

And of course you are goning to decline when you get older even the great Michael Jordan did


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

i dont think rafer will be starting at the beginning of the year but as it goes on and alvin get hurt he will step in.


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## Ballyhoo (May 30, 2003)

We don't have hard numbers yet, but if the $29 million number is right then this is what I suspect:

Year 1, age 28: $3.3 million
Year 2, age 29: $3.8 million
Year 3, age 30: $4.3 million
Year 4, age 31: $5.0 million
Year 5, age 32: $5.8 million
Year 6, age 33: $6.7 million
Total: $28.9 million

I would have been very happy to sign him to the first 3 years of that deal. They are reasonable. The last 3 years are killers.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballyhoo</b>!
> We don't have hard numbers yet, but if the $29 million number is right then this is what I suspect:
> 
> Year 1, age 28: $3.3 million
> ...


This escalating deal is what I expect. What they do with the other half of the MLE will be important. 

Man, it's hard to be patient.


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## KeonBackinTO (May 26, 2003)

The Raps are terrible right now, look at the situation the team is in. No one wants to come here, unless the Raps offer the most money. 

And i don't care, if the Raps gave Alston a max contract, as long as they finally have a PG on the team I am happy. I couldn't stand watching the Raps games last year without a PG, they are boring and terrible. Now maybe with the rest of we can sign a project PG like Dooling.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>KeonBackinTO</b>!
> And i don't care, if the Raps gave Alston a max contract, as long as they finally have a PG on the team I am happy. I couldn't stand watching the Raps games last year without a PG, they are boring and terrible. Now maybe with the rest of we can sign a project PG like Dooling.


:no: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## ColinBeehler (Oct 14, 2003)

*Alston's Contract*

I thought it through and Alston's contract will turn out like this:

1st - 3.5mil 28yrs old
2nd- 3.95mil 29yrs old
3rd- 4.4mil 30yrs old
4th- 4.85mil 31yrs old
5th- 5.3mil 32yrs old
6th- 5.75mil 33yrs old

Awful? Meh.... IMO it's really not that bad. Yes, when he is 33 years old 5.75 million is a lot of money. but, the chances of us. A rebuilding team. Having him around in six years. Well. Are slim.

Lata


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> That's not the point. If you can't get him for a reasonable deal, don't get him at all. If you could not get him for 3 years and 9 million then I would have left him to the Heat.


If NBA teams thought that a 3-year, 9-million contract were market value for Rafer Alston, then that is what he would have gotten.

You, along with most other posters, are basing your *perception* of a reasonable salary for a player of his caliber on contracts that were signed two or three years ago. Based on that perception, every player signed so far this summer has been overpaid. But I think the reality is that the price of players has just gone way up, and will stay that way.

I'm going to make the same argument that you made about the Rafael Araujo pick. The perception of a lot of fans, based on what they read on NBAdraft.net and DraftCity, was that Araujo should be picked around 15th. But NBA general managers, who had a lot more knowledge of prospects than we as fans did, proved that the perception was wrong, Araujo's true value was much closer to 8th. The perception of a lot of fans, based on the free agent market of two years ago, is that Alston deserves a 3-year, 9-million dollar contract. But NBA general managers, who have a lot more knowledge of the free agent market now and in the future than we as fans do, proved that the perception was wrong, Alston's true value was what he actually got.

That doesn't mean signing Alston was definitely the right move. Maybe he'll stop working on his game, maybe he'll take his money and run. But I'm guessing he'll be a steal for the Raptors. Give him a chance.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

First off: Charlz, Rafer is a tough defender. Him and Alvin will be a great combination of defensive PG's. No way is he a marginal defender at all. He is a stick-to-you-like-glue guy and that's not a problem with his game at all. Shooting is his problem, and he's improved that, so I'm not concerned from a quality-standpoint.


Who were our other options? Rafer is younger than Hudson or Fisher, who would've commanded similar or bigger contracts. He's better than Damon Jones, who is a real journeyman, not someone who cut his teeth on the asphalt and is now a NBA player. He is more experienced than Carlos Arroyo, who by the way sucked hard when he was in Toronto and might not do well in a situation where the team make-up isn't as crazy as the Jazz's was last season. And on top of that Skip loves Toronto and Toronto fans love him. I'm actually kind of excited about him returning.

Rafer is an expensive signing, but a necessary one. We couldn't go into the season with A-Dub running the point full-time. We had to use our MLE to sign a good point guard and with the free agent class the way it was, this is what happens.

The people saying "we could've had him for less" are ignorant because he would've stayed in Miami if we hadn't offered him significantly more. And to think that Babcock made his first offer this high is silly, too, because you don't start with a really high offer and go from there. This is the least amount of money he would play in Toronto for, trust that.


Now, I want to know how much his salary eats our MLE this season. The salary scales in this thread are just projections, I want to know the real deal. Can we still afford to sign a veteran big?


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## arcade_rida (Jun 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>speedythief</b>!
> First off: Charlz, Rafer is a tough defender. Him and Alvin will be a great combination of defensive PG's. No way is he a marginal defender at all. He is a stick-to-you-like-glue guy and that's not a problem with his game at all. Shooting is his problem, and he's improved that, so I'm not concerned from a quality-standpoint.
> 
> 
> ...


I was waiting for you to explain I totally agree with you Speddy


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> 
> If NBA teams thought that a 3-year, 9-million contract were market value for Rafer Alston, then that is what he would have gotten.
> ...


People are worth what they are given. That does not mean you can't question the decision-maker. At 8 with no way to move down and a need at 5 you go big if the ratings are close. In terms of point guards there is more choice in free agency. 

This team is supposedly building toward a championship. I don't see that happening by building with this squad. The Rafer signing gets the Raptors closer to 7-8 not 1-3 if you catch my drift. 

Once you are mediocre AND capped out how do you make the jump to elite status? 

Right now I'm in a holding pattern, but there had better be some yet unfallen dominoes.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

i don't see why people are downpalying this contract so much.

in 2 years, Jalen's contract will be off the books, along that time so will Marshall's and Murray's. then in another year, Alvin's contract will also be gone, all the while giving us a big load of money and cap room to work with and it'll make Alton's "close to the MLE" salary non-existant.

in the meantime while we wait out for these contracts to expire, we get a very dependable backup PG, and if needed, a starting PG for the short term.

so what's the beef?


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lucky777s</b>!
> This just further proves that Babcock is simply a carbon copy of Glen Grunwald.
> 
> Rafer was more than willing to take less than half of the MLE to stay in Miami. He had said publicly that he was looking for backup dollars and knew that Miami needed part of the MLE to get a C.
> ...


good post - esp on team option year 4 so we can see what he does after 3 seasons.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> 
> 
> People are worth what they are given. That does not mean you can't question the decision-maker. At 8 with no way to move down and a need at 5 you go big if the ratings are close. In terms of point guards there is more choice in free agency.
> ...


I see what you're saying, and I used to think that way, but I don't anymore.

Championships are overrated. The job of a general manager isn't to build a championship team, it's to build a team that will get fans excited enough about the team to watch games, come to games, buy jerseys, etc. People that think championship are all that matter would say the Pacers didn't accomplish anything more this year than we did the previous three years when we lost in the first round. As a Pacers fan, I had a great time following the team this year, I didn't consider the season a failure because we didn't win the championship. We had a good team, we made a great playoff run, we gave it our all, that's all I can ask for.

And I don't care that Rob Babcock said after he got hired that he didn't care about the playoffs right now and his goal was to build a championship team in Toronto. Ignore that crap, that's just a line he fed to the media to cover his back in case things go wrong this year. Of course he wants to make the playoffs, you can see that by the moves he's made so far.

Honestly, as a fan, would you rather sit in the lottery year after year and hope that you eventually luck into the next Shaq, Duncan, or LeBron, or would you rather have a solid team that makes the playoffs and hopefully does some damage there? I'd take the solid team. It sucks to be fan of an awful team.

Now, I'm not saying I think teams should do what the Knicks did. That team has no chance to ever get out of the first round. It's OK to play the lottery for a couple of years in a row, but after that, you want to get back to the playoffs, you don't want to be stuck there forever like the Bulls and the Clippers. You guys played the lottery for a couple of years, got two nice young players in Bosh and Araujo, now it's time to try to win again. You have a chance to be a decent playoff team now, and if those guys pan out, maybe even a contender in the future. That's not a bad situation at all. I'm not even a Raptors fan, but I think your team is on the right track. Come down from the bridge.


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## Ballyhoo (May 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> i don't see why people are downpalying this contract so much.
> 
> in 2 years, Jalen's contract will be off the books, along that time so will Marshall's and Murray's. then in another year, Alvin's contract will also be gone, all the while giving us a big load of money and cap room to work with and it'll make Alton's "close to the MLE" salary non-existant.


We have 3 years left with Jalen. We are capped out until 2007/08, at which point Vince can opt out. Do you think he will stay with no significant help for another 3 years? He might if he's chronically injured, but if he's healthy and productive and can command a big deal he'll be gone. 

2007/08 is also the year Bosh will be a FA. If Vince opts out and leaves, will Bosh re-sign? 

I don't want wait 3-4 years to start rebuilding. I want to start now, so in 3-4 years we can be in contention.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

People continue to ignore the fact that raises are capped at 10% per year.

Therefore the deal has to start at:

3.7 then multiply by 1.1 to get the next year
4.07
4.47
4.92
5.4
5.95

total 28.51

So it is a slightly higher salary than 3.7 mill first year.

That leaves just under 1.3 mill which is less than our LLE anyway so it effectively kills our MLE.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballyhoo</b>!
> 
> 
> We have 3 years left with Jalen. We are capped out until 2007/08, at which point Vince can opt out. Do you think he will stay with no significant help for another 3 years? He might if he's chronically injured, but if he's healthy and productive and can command a big deal he'll be gone.
> ...


you expect to have a winning team now when it's utterly impossible, even for a GM like Jerry West.

GG's mistakes (the contracts) will take time to correct.

why do you think Babcock keeps praising for the fans to have patience?

in the meantime, heal any wounds that can be healed.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

what i even find more atrocious is that Babcock has filled all the primary needs that the raps have been lacking for a season or two:
a real center
a real point guard
a coach who plays with his players' strengths

and people are still unhappy?


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

For those who are saying we just got a great back up what are you smokin?

That type of cash was not given to have Alston be a back up but to start.

Alvin can start but his legs are fading he is best a bench role player.

Alston starting gives us a up tempo team With Alston Carter Bosh.

No we with the speed Alston has that we use him asa back up Pg



> i dont think rafer will be starting at the beginning of the year but as it goes on and alvin get hurt he will step in.


Start him from day 1, we know what Alvin has to offer and it is not equal to Alston a more dynamic player who can also create more than Alvin.

Alvin is at the stage of his career that back up PG/Sg is where he will excel.


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## DINOSAUR (Sep 20, 2003)

It's like inflation. As the years go by player's salaries will continue to increase.

Look at the contracts Nash,Foyle,Okur got. Nash is aging, Foyle is a lifetime bench player, and Okur has done nothing to prove himself yet. I even think Giricek's contract of 4 years 16 million dollars is a little to much for him.

Another thing that is getting very common this year is that all these contracts are long term. Every contract that is being signed is for 5 or 6 years.

Before you get all upset about signing Rafer to this much, think about this. In 4 years when his play declines he won't be that untradable because there'll be a lot of undesirable contracts that people would wanna get rid of especially for a contract that would expire in 2 years.

It's not only our team that is overpaying. It's pretty much every team. This was the only way we could of gotten a pg. So I'm pretty happy about bringing Alston back.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> 
> 
> I see what you're saying, and I used to think that way, but I don't anymore.
> ...


Geronimoooooooooooooooooooooo!!

j/k

I know exactly what you are saying and concur with a lot. It's Tanenbaum, the owner (partial) who is supposed to be desperate to win. I just don't see the team being top echelon. That's all I want. Then you can say, "we've got a shot". You had that last year, so did about 7-8 other teams.

I honestly would rather grow with youth because I can't see trading our way to the elite like Detroit with our assets. But that is not the way Babs is going.


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## SlamDunkShot (Jul 24, 2003)

has anyone else noticed that EVERY player who signs a contract nowadays is overpaid?

i think we just have to get used to people signing ridiculous contracts...


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

WOW... I thought money was tight in Raptorsland (I guess not) but do we still have anything left over for Mr. Mo-Pete and any other FA signings?


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## ozzzymandius (Jun 9, 2003)

THIS JUST IN .....

The FAN's Eric Smith ... just said that its unlikely that the current contract amount and length is accurate !!!

So hold the phone folks ...the details when they are announced might be different from what we've heard so far !!!


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

If this signing is true then I am happy and very shocked at the same time!!! Babcock had to do what he had to do to lure a promising up and coming point guard to this team. A lot teams are looking for a point guard this season and Babcock had to beat the competition. This signing makes our team a lot better ...but for some reason I do not think Babcock is done. Babcock is building this team and addressing our needs... so far we have a true center... have a coach and now a starting pg... Well done Mr. Babcock ... now we just have to win some games and then were set.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Rafer will be our starting PG. I think his contract guarantees that. At least he will play starters minutes 30-35.

MoP is a nice trading chip. I can't see the Raps just letting him walk.

But Mo's future here might depend on how well guys like Mike Williams do in summer league. There is good talent in summer league (on multiple teams) that are not signed and are FA's. 

I was looking at some of the names out there and we can pick up some minimum salary PG's, SG/SF's and even C's.


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## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ozzzymandius</b>!
> THIS JUST IN .....
> 
> The FAN's Eric Smith ... just said that its unlikely that the current contract amount and length is accurate !!!
> ...


Yeah hopefully its a little shorter and a little cheaper!


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

We can only hope.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballyhoo</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly! Look at the teams who are overpaying marginal FAs, it's the lottery teams. What are the contenders doing? Detroit is letting Okur go, and it looks like the Spurs are letting Manu go, rather than overpay him. Maybe this explains why Detroit and San Antonio are good and Golden State, Toronto, Chicago, Orlando, etc. are bad. The GMs in Detroit and SA understand how to manage their cap space and get the most bang for the buck.


actually, its likely that SA _will_ re-sign manu.


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

Maybe there is a TO... somewhere... like the 3rd yr....


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>trick</b>!
> i don't see why people are downpalying this contract so much.
> 
> in 2 years, Jalen's contract will be off the books, along that time so will Marshall's and Murray's. then in another year, Alvin's contract will also be gone, all the while giving us a big load of money and cap room to work with and it'll make Alton's "close to the MLE" salary non-existant.
> ...


i think this is pretty short-sighted. it's kind of the same thing as when people project the dream team 10 years down the road- it always includes only the players who are already in the league, as if there will be no new players to emerge in the meantime.

yes, jalen's contract will expire in 3 years, same with alvin, murray will be gone in 2, etc.. but are there going to be no new players to replace them? from that standpoint, we'll be approximately $40-50 million under the cap four years down the road because all of our contracts will have expired. brilliant!

unfortunately the world doesn't work like that. it's a pretty safe assumption that something will come of each player's respective contract prior to expiration- we'll either move him in a trade, re-sign him, re-sign someone else, etc. we won't just let the contracts come off the books for nothing- we'd have to sit around idly for the next 4 years in order to pursue that strategy, and what are the chances of that? we've seen how many drastic changes the team has made in the past 12 months; how can we assume that there will be no substantive transactions for the next 4/5 years? 

5 years is an eternity in professional sports.

the alston contract, if the reports are accurate, is crippling. i don't know about rob babcock, i don't think he's had enough time to make a reputation for himself, but this is a bad sign. it doesn't matter to me whether foyle is being offered $40 mill or whether okur is getting a $50 mill contract from the jazz- that absurdity does nothing to justify ours. in a weak free agent season, you don't throw $29 million at a player and just hope that he'll become a worthy $29 million player. instead, you accept that there may not be any talent worth paying that kind of money, and look to plug your holes elsewhere. you're just digging yourself a deeper a grave (long term) by failing to recognize the reality of your situation, and by failing to act accordingly.

i'm starting to think this is (in some ways) as bad as juwan howard's contract a year ago- and just go back in the threads on this board to see how _it_ was being received. there were some fans on whom the repackaging of juwan howard worked ("this guy is a $42 million player! the magic are top 4 in the east now!"). as it turned out, juwan howard was not a different player because he got more money than he deserved; it just made the situation worse, as the magic were an already financially-strapped franchise who now had yet another albatross to unload from their payroll.

i like skip, but i wasn't all that sad to see him leave last year. his performance began waning considerably once we began relying on him beyond his modest abilities. to pay that same player a contract like this (which pretty much renders the rest of our mid-level exception useless) is blind. we're absolutely overpaying for skip- with this contract, there is no way that we could be underpaying for this player.

those are the transactions you just don't _make_.

i hope babcock proves us wrong.

peace


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## McFurious (Mar 25, 2004)

> i hope babcock proves us wrong.


Me too and I agree ballocks

but....

It looks like the only way the Raptors can get decent free agents nowadays is to offer them a long and cash filled contract but I really doubt Babcock is done shaping this team so lets just hope he has an ace up his sleeve.


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

i like this team

Alston/Williams/RMJ
VC/Mopete(hopefully)
Jalen/Murray
Bosh/Marshall/Bonner
Araujo/Moisio


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## Numbed One (Jun 8, 2003)

Wow.

The Raps are turning into quite the interesting team.

From supposedly being at the point of having to "blow it up" and rebuild last year, it looks like the Raps are turning into quite the exciting playoff team (especially for the east).

I'm liking what I'm seeing from the new management so far, but I'll hold my breath until the end of the offseason.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Instead of complaining, cant we see what Babcock is doing here. In such a short time, this man has completely or almost addressed all the glaring issues on the team, this team come next season is looking more like a playoff team instead of a lottery team. Do you think even Babcock has not considered the fact that he might be overpaying Alston. Lets see if he has other aces up his sleeve, so far I think he has done a commendable job. And if you dont entice free agents through cash, why in the world would they want to play in canada, the weather???


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## KeonBackinTO (May 26, 2003)

Alston is obviously the player available that Babs and the coach thought fit the team the best. And the had to overpay to get him away from a secure spot on a good team in sunny Florida. It's good to overpay for the player you want sometimes. It's not like Damon Jones or someone would come for that much cheaper anyways. 

And this signing gives the Raps some flare once again, honestly the Raps were the most boring team in the league last year. I know attendance rates are still good, but any one know about tv ratings.

Everyone is saying this is a terrible move and could of gotten cheaper better players. But I will trust NBA executives opinions over people on the internet, you think could of signed for less. The raps would have gotten someone they didnt want and prolly couldn't get anyone great. Then would resign Mo Pete for big money cause they need to get someone out of this offseason. And PG is a much more pressing need. 

All the contract stuff aside, just be happy the raps finally got a player that brings excitment and a capable PG>


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## KeonBackinTO (May 26, 2003)

the deal is certainly not the full MLE.

The magic signed turkologu for the full MLE, and his deal is 6 years 40 million, which is 11 million more then this deal.

So getting solid PG in this market for not the whole MLE is a pretty good deal, now all that need is a project PG like Dooling or someone.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Could it be 29 mill including bonuses? Even a couple of million shaved off would be nice.

I guess the question now is whether or not Rafer starts over a healthy Alvin. If we're playing up-tempo I think Skip will probably get the nod, at least until AW gets his legs back. He has some decent players around him in the open court. Also, don't underrate what a guy like Murray brings to the table with a little more offensive freedom. 

Would someone care to comment on the rumored bad blood between skip and vince? I really doubt its anything serious and they didn't get to play together for many games. 

Skip plays smart basketball; I think we have a pretty smart team that knows when to pass and when to shoot.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

*Rafer Alston* - arguably the best point guard available

Can flat out handle the rock!

10th in NBA in assist/turnover ratio. Ahead of Jason Kidd, Stephon Marbury, Cassell, Bibby, Hinrich, Billups...

4th among NBA point guards in Steals per Turnover.

8th in NBA on treys made. 2nd among point guards. (Baron Davis)

8th in NBA in treys made /48 minutes. 3rd among point guards.

Despite starting just 28 times, was 20th in the NBA in steal/game. (Ahead of Arenas, Payton, Hinrich, Cassell, Fisher, Bibby & JWill)

Has yet to reach his prime.

So tell me again why a BELOW AVERAGE SALARY is overpaying for this guy???

Rebounding & FT shooting is average for a point guard. 

Weaknesses- Midrange pull-up & finishing to basket are not strengths. Can get in the lane, and will take it if you give it to him, but dish is his 1st choice. Doesn't have a good floater, IMO. 

ballocks- ballocks!

They got the guy they wanted, and can wait in the weeds for the rest of the teams to spend their MLEs and cap space.

Then they can use the rest of their MLE + min exemption to get the best center remaining.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

I hope he will be the starter and not waste the money in a bench player


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