# Full rebuilding mode?



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

At this point there are several things that have become clear. The Knicks are starved for leadership, the vets lack consistent effort, and there are still holes to fill on the team. Finally, all but the staunchest of Marbury fans agree.....although uber talented, the guy is not a winner and needs to go. If he succeeds someplace else, more power to him. JC has either got to bring more effort on both ends of the court along with improved ball-sense or he must also depart. I like Curry and think he must be given more time; guys with his physical size and skills just don't come along very often. Fye. Enough said. While I like Ariza, he just doesn't have enough offensive skill to warrant a full-time gig at the SF. Quentin could be a decent SG if he could only defend average. I want to play Lee more at the SF. He bring ballhandling, size, rebounding, and Ariza type energy. He is a better passer and his offense is better than Trevor's...especially down low. Nate and Ariza off the bench might be a great spark tandem. We need guards who are effort guys...guys who understand the game and will respect it. I don't have anybody in mind but I know we don't have these guys yet. No more guys with a crazy handle or mad hops or great dunkers (although they may be good at these).....I want solid players who go 100% and make sound decisions. Heinrick(sp?) and Duhon...Kidd....Parker....Ginobli....Nash...Billups. Every good team has at least one of these guys. We don't.


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## BIGsHOTBOY12345 (Aug 24, 2005)

We need to get rid of JJ, penny, marbury, crawford, maybe crawford MAYBE, malik, taylor, woods, butler, AD, and qrich.. if they cant do anything for us, then why have em? gosh... rebuild with all the rookies...and get a real leader.. make that trade for jared jeffries, and chucky atkins for qrich!! zeke is a braindead GM, he got all people who suck..... at least he knows how to pick draft picks... they are the only ones doing stuff. thats prett embarrasing, they mad hard working, props to them, we need to hire a different GM, how bout brian cashman??? lol juss playin


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

alphadog said:


> At this point there are several things that have become clear. The Knicks are starved for leadership, the vets lack consistent effort, and there are still holes to fill on the team. Finally, all but the staunchest of Marbury fans agree.....although uber talented, the guy is not a winner and needs to go.


Some Knick fans are conceding that it's time for a change in the back court. I may love an individual player but I want whats best for the team so I had to sadly admit...I wouldn't mind seeing Steph vacant the premises.



alphadog said:


> While I like Ariza, he just doesn't have enough offensive skill to warrant a full-time gig at the SF.


NBDL? That's my only solution, it appears to me he hasn't worked on his game in the off season. He needs some type of jump shot to keep the defense honest. He is good for a highlight dunk or two but that's about it. Sometimes coming out of college after only 1 year is not the right thing to do. If he dosen't improve you're probably see him on a "Slam" Milk Carton real soon, "Where are They Now?"



alphadog said:


> Quentin could be a decent SG if he could only defend average.


The thing I didn't like and I'm sure you're debate me on this issue was the fact that LB took him out after he missed a defensive assignment during the Orlando game. He was having one of the best first halfs as a Knick and he commits one defensive assignment mistake and LB jumps the gun and decides to sit him. Sometimes you just have to let the kid play. We had to deal with H20 when he was a defensive liablity during his "good knee" days.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

yeah, but at least allan tried on defense. he wasnt a good defender, but he tried his best. 

Q is not a shooting guard... he cant create his own shot, or any shot, except in the post...he rebounds well... sounds like a small forward to me.. putting him at the 2 basically means we have 0 playmakers on the floor...besides steph...but he doesnt count.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Well, Kitty....*

You're right...I do disagree with you o that one. The fact that he was having a good offensive game is not the issue. I'm happy to see it but our problems are 90% defensive. Qrich is just a very, very bad defender....maybe one of the worst I've seen. The Knicks as a team seem confused and passive on defense, the result being tons of open shots by our opponents. Re-watch the game last night. I often saw 2-3 guys follow a guy around a pick leaving at least one and maybe two shooters open....sometimes by more than 10 feet. They routinely give the baseline and the help defense is ALWAYS late getting there. Result? Easy baskets and/or FTs. Team defense is a matter of:

1) having a philosophy

2) effort

3) having trust in your teamates to cover your butt when you do get beat (that also means covering theirs when they get beat)

Most defensive schemes are not that hard to understand.

I watched a couple of plays where the Hawk player was on the wing 20 feet away and I KNEW he was going baseline before he made his move. If it was that obvious to me, don't you think a pro should have suspected? First rule of defense is don't give up the baseline...use it as another defender. Always turn your guy to the middle where you have help. Know who the shooters are and get up on them. If you get beat, yell for help and cover the man coming open from the help defender.
And ALWAYS..ALWAYS play hard and hustle. The Knicks did this early on and when the guards got into the opposing guards face all game, the d was solid. What the hell is going on now?


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## chrisr87 (Jul 3, 2005)

*Re: Well, Kitty....*

Larry Brown will not coach a team with only young players. The wrong thing Brown has been doing wrong is he hasn't been using each player's strengths. He talks too much of teamwork and ball movement. If it's not getting you the win, what good is it?
On the offense they should use Richardson and Frye to spread the floor, use Marbury's driving capabilities on every play until they stop him. If they start to converge in the middle, Frye and Richardson can knock down the shots.
Also, as much as I'd love it if the Knicks rebuilt for once, I doubt it's gonna happen. We have one of the worst and most arrogant GMs in the league. He's known for running teams to the ground. He even ran a whole league into the ground.


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## majew16 (Jun 5, 2005)

BIGsHOTBOY12345 said:


> We need to get rid of JJ, penny, marbury, crawford, maybe crawford MAYBE, malik, taylor, woods, butler, AD, and qrich.. if they cant do anything for us, then why have em? gosh... rebuild with all the rookies...and get a real leader.. make that trade for jared jeffries, and chucky atkins for qrich!! zeke is a braindead GM, he got all people who suck..... at least he knows how to pick draft picks... they are the only ones doing stuff. thats prett embarrasing, they mad hard working, props to them, we need to hire a different GM, how bout brian cashman??? lol juss playin


the knicks should get a new gm and make zeke a draft guu only. he makes great picks and the she worst trades


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## pridefish (Apr 2, 2005)

I think years from now, knicks fans will look at these years as part of the 5-10 worst years of the organization. The normal cycle would be you get bad for a few years, take advantage of the high draft picks and rebuild but I think the knicks organization lacks focus as to what it truly wants to do. I heard Isaah for the first time state that he expects to finish last and that he knew the Knicks would get a high draft pick but he thought Eddie Currie was better than any of the incoming draft picks. He acknowledged the Knicks are rebuilding. Yet he also stated he was proud the knicks made the playoffs with a subpar .500 record 2 years ago. The knicks organization seems to lack focus, now they say they are rebuilding and don't expect to do well in the immediate future, but they still have all the moves they have made to get better now that are inconsistent with this.

The good part is that dark eras in sports usually eventually lead to a turnaround. Teams that are pathetic for years eventually are forced out of their horrible situation and become dominant. The patriots were considered the worst nfl team throughout the 80s and 90s and now are one of the most dominant teams ever. I think the knicks will realize they have to rebuild, but they have to kick isaah out because this is not the direction he went in and his moves have to be called a failure. The knicks need to pile up draft picks and get below the salary cap and this takes time and patience. The good news is the knicks have made so many bad choices it appears they do not have a choice about rebuilding. This may have been the only way a team with such high expectations like the knicks could become a championship team under the salary cap system since there is so much pressure to win right now, so it may be a good thing for knicks fans. I don't know if larry brown has the patience to rebuild with an awful team, it is certainly a new challenge to him, and if he sticks with it it will be one of his finest accomplishments, but the knicks can do it with or without him. The knicks do not have a choice whether they want to be a team equivalent to the atlanta hawks for the forseeable future because they already are.

I also think the salary cap system the nba has is flawed. Both baseball and football allow ways for teams to recover relatively quickly from bad past mistakes, but basketball does not. It is a crying shame that the new york knicks are not allowed to spend enough money to build a team that reflects our city.


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## Cager (Jun 13, 2002)

Alpha Dog - You are 100% correct that the Kniicks are starved for veteran leadership. 

The Knicks remind me of the Bulls a few years ago. Plenty of talented youth but mostly directionless. Too many players that haven't experienced winning. That is part of Starbury's problem. Malik Rose has certainly won but besides being over the hill , he never was a leader type. I see that Jamal still hasn't changed enough to be valuable. He has so much talent and is one of the few NBA players that can create their own space anytime. Besides being a streaky shooter he just doesn't play smart or play defense consistently. For the last 4 years he has had stretches of games where he does everything and then nothing. If Brown can't get him to focus all the time then I don't know who can. He will always be someone you can bring off the bench and if he is hot , let him shoot. If not, he doesn't play many minutes. I don't think you can ever give up on Curry because he has so much athletic ability. It could be that Crawford and Curry just have low BB IQ's. I don't Q fits into what the Knicks want to do and grossly overpaid for someone who can't handle the ball or play defense.

Just hope that Isiah doesn't mess with the young talent on the team by being too impatient to win now. The Knicks just need some veteran leadership to show the youngsters how to prepare and play in the NBA.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

pridefish said:


> I think the knicks will realize they have to rebuild, but they have to kick isaah out because this is not the direction he went in and his moves have to be called a failure.


I agree between Layden and Zeke we haven't had a decent GM since Ernie took over. It all boils down to Dolan, he seems to enjoy spending his money on players who don't have the heart and soul to put on the Knick uniform. As soon as Dolan realizes it the better. You have to think that Steve Mills has Dolan's ears and letting him know now that we have the coach let's get a "real" GM in here. It's a cut throat business, but I'm sorry Zeke should just stick to scouting and working the draft. 



pridefish said:


> The good news is the knicks have made so many bad choices it appears they do not have a choice about rebuilding.


The good news is that we are in the Atlantic division one of the worst divisions in the league. Just don't be surprise we can still make the playoffs because of that sorry *** division. :biggrin: 



pridefish said:


> I also think the salary cap system the nba has is flawed. Both baseball and football allow ways for teams to recover relatively quickly from bad past mistakes, but basketball does not. It is a crying shame that the new york knicks are not allowed to spend enough money to build a team that reflects our city.


The salary cap system that Stern has implemented is terrible. If anything he is only hurting himself, just imagine if teams like Boston and NY were able to spend as much money as they want to build a "Yankee" empire and to constantly be in the playoffs? The league would see so much revenue they wouldn't know how to spend it! We can't sign guys like Kobe, Lebron, T-Mac because quite frankly we will never be under the cap to do so. I do agree that the NBA should do the same thing that MLB is doing. Yes if we do spend a lot of money and go over the cap, then that's when revenue sharing takes over. It hasn't stopped the Yankees and now the Mets when it comes to spending money, so I know it wouldn't stop the Knicks, which is ranked #2 as one of the richest franchises in the league.

Owners can't keep there supserstars anymore without having to worry about salary cap implications. It think basically you can only have up to 3 max players on your team (See Suns). Why can't we have all-stars at every position just like Yankees and Red Soxs? Sorry to say there are only a couple of teams that have a strong following all over the United States and would love to see win it all and that's the Bulls, Knicks, Celtics and Lakers. Nothing against the Spurs...but wake me up when their dynasty is over.. If Stern wants to see the money and ratings he needs to change his system.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Kitty,*

You know you're my favorite catwoman, but I again have to disagree. Other teams manage the cap, it's just that NY was really handcuffed and then continued to accumulate large contracts just to aquire talented (but flawed and overpriced) players. We don't need LeBron...or Kobe etc. We need players that buy into a system and then play with heart, effort, and pride, with the end goal of always winning. Its the NY way. I admit that I'm not sure what LB is doing since it looks like the team is better with the young guys playing, they bring so much energy and effort. I can only hope that the vets are auditioning for trades. We may not need as much as people think. We need a leader (preferrably a solid PG who has the respect of his 'mates), we need a shooter, and then we need to bring it everynight, hit the FTs, and value the ball. We can do all of these things. We already have enough skill here so that when we get the floor general and the shooter, we will improve. It WILL take some time so we need to stop whining. There'll be some yellin' at great plays and some wincin' at bad ones, but we'll get there.

Don't forget...Frye is a great example, He played strickly center in college and never had to put the ball on the floor or have much of a SF type of game. He is learning on the fly, and although has some struggles at times, is improving. He driving more and will finish better as he gets stronger and more experience. He is learning fakes and other tools of the really good ones but it will take time. Its the same for all of the young ones. Clyde remarked that LB said one of the young guys asked him how to know how much time was left on the shot clock. He replied that the clock was on top of the backboard. Said he couldn't imagine ever having to answer something like that. Like another great NYer said(Al McQuire)"The best thing about Freshman is that they become Sophmores". Well, we have a team full of "Freshmen".


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rebuild mode?? Thats an interesting way for Zele to spin his unsuccessful approach of trading and overpaying for guys with all potential and no BB IQ....

And how do we rebuild having traded away our draft picks and having no cap space??


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## SPIN DOCTOR (Oct 31, 2002)

truth said:


> Rebuild mode?? Thats an interesting way for Zele to spin his unsuccessful approach of trading and overpaying for guys with all potential and no BB IQ....
> 
> And how do we rebuild having traded away our draft picks and having no cap space??


Merry Xmas to all you guys on the Knicks board.

I was just surfing through and say Truths post.

Truth... your spot on. 

What I think the truth is... as it relates to Zeke and Larry. They had no inkling whatsoever, that this team they have assembled could be so bad. Call it whatever you want, the bottom line is that neither of these basketball lifers could have imagined the horrors they've seen sofar this season. They both better learn to spin it in some positive way, because the young core is stunned and they cannot afford to lose them, they are your future. When Zeke justifies trading away all his draft picks because its a weak draft next year...he had better hope he right. If one of those picks turns into some big swinging dick stud that puts a team over the top, well I want to hear him justify that too. 

This part is painful, you have to let your kids develop, you've got some really good ones. We went through the same thing in Chicago, everytime you trade your best kids for some was an all star, will be an all star, is the greatest all star, you get burned, and you take a 1 year step back. The top 5-10 players in the game are not coming, nobody lets them go, and if they did you could'nt field a team with what left of your roster (shaq/kobe fued notwithstanding).

If you play it out, you will get better. If Larry can decide on a lineup, what in the world is wrong with him this year?


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Zeke should not be allowed to run a team, he is horrible!


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

SPIN DOCTOR said:


> Merry Xmas to all you guys on the Knicks board.
> 
> I was just surfing through and say Truths post.
> 
> ...


Objective number 1 is to dump marbury...I admire the way he has tried to adapt to the system,but he has the absolute worst body language I have ever seen...And its not like he just developed this attitude yesterday....Its in his nature

If Next town Brown can stay healthy and not quit,I think we will be OK...The shuffling of the lineup is kind of scary,but I think its pretty clear after Frye and Curry there are no sure bets to stick around..

I will be the first to admit that I am shocked at how bad we suck...School is definetly in session for a loooong time


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## pridefish (Apr 2, 2005)

By the way, this is the link for Isiah's interview with Mike Francesa. Say what you want about Francesa, but he usually does good interviews, not too aggressive to turn the guest off from speaking, but very probing. Its December 16th, the second link down.

http://wfan.com/chrismikeaudio/


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

Vintage Zeke, I'm glad Mike didn't let him off the hook.


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