# Green/Bobcats Workout Article (merged)



## CanJohno (Feb 11, 2005)

*Green/Bobcats Workout Article*

I found this earlier and hadn't seen it discussed on here, yet... so, here it is :

http://www.nba.com/bobcats/draft_central_workouts_050615.html


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

*Re: Green/Bobcats Workout Article*

It's fun to see the posturing back and forth from Nash and Bickerstaff.


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## Goldmember (May 24, 2003)

*Re: Green/Bobcats Workout Article*

Nash needs to get this guy in for a workout. Even if it's by himself. We have to know if that assesment by Bickerstaff is legit (especially about the shooting). If he really has great range and athletesism, he would be a perfect fit in Portland. He seems to have a good attitude.


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

*Green's Workout In Charlotte*

From: The Charlotte Observer



> Gerald Green now appreciates the expression "Be careful what you wish for."
> 
> Green, a high school star from Houston, insists that his workouts for NBA teams be solo affairs. He and his agent say that's to avoid injury. It didn't avoid exhaustion.
> 
> ...


Also....



> .....The Blazers have said they would consider trading down from No. 3. But Bickerstaff said Portland's price is too high.
> 
> "We could get to three; I know we could make a deal to get to three," Bickerstaff said, "but it's too much to give up. That (price) could change because it's early," with nearly two weeks until the June 28 draft.
> 
> ...


.....


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## Utherhimo (Feb 20, 2005)

*Re: Green's Workout In Charlotte*

a veteran? how about theo? miles? da! wonder how far his stock slips


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

*Re: Green/Bobcats Workout Article*



> *(On Portland General Manager John Nash’s criticism of doing only solo workouts)* I didn’t hear that about his comments. But I have a lot of respect for him, so anything he said about me, that’s his opinion. But life still goes on and I still have to proceed with my workouts and try to do my best.


Good for him not taking the bait. Seems like a pretty smart kid and he sounds like a hard worker.

The risk of injury is a legit reason to limit exposure - although as we've discussed it is a risk in itself.

I think Nash is smoke screening like a crazy man and Bickerstaff is doing the same. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out - I wouldn't be surprised if Nash pulled Green in for some sort of covert ops workout without alerting the press... or something crazy like that.

Sounds like fun.


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## cimalee (Apr 17, 2003)

The blazers will pick green its a lock 

Draft mind games thats all it is


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

Bickerstaff does realize he is nearly $2 mil over Charlottes soft cap right?


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Trader Bob said:


> Bickerstaff does realize he is nearly $2 mil over Charlottes soft cap right?


Actually about 4mil under as their soft cap is 2/3 of the Normal NBA softcap, or about 30mil....Check Larry ****...


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

Schilly said:


> Actually about 4mil under as their soft cap is 2/3 of the Normal NBA softcap, or about 30mil....Check Larry ****...


well maybe I got it all mixed up all this time.

their cap is 1/2 their first year... this year right? until July 1

then 2/3 their 2nd year.. July 1 2005 

then normal their 3rd year


I will check it out

EDIT: I had my percentages wrong ... its 2/3 and 3/4.. me bad


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Trader Bob said:


> well maybe I got it all mixed up all this time.
> 
> their cap is 1/2 their first year... this year right? until July 1
> 
> ...


No Problem....


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

well they certainly will have lots of cap room on July 1... with only about $18 mil committed and a soft cap of $32.75 mil for them assuming the soft cap stays at $43.67......... they have a lot of room to do deals

any draft day deal with us can be consumated on July 1 if it needs to. Absorbing a Darius or DA or Ruben or such contract can be easily done

assuming no locks outs of course


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Trader Bob said:


> well they certainly will have lots of cap room on July 1... with only about $18 mil committed and a soft cap of $32.75 mil for them assuming the soft cap stays at $43.67......... they have a lot of room to do deals
> 
> any draft day deal with us can be consumated on July 1 if it needs to. Absorbing a Darius or DA or Ruben or such contract can be easily done


I doubt that the Hornets are looking to use that valuble capspace to absorb another SFs contract as Gerald Wallace is one of their better starters. IMO he's about at the same level of effectiveness as Darius and Rube... he pretty much plays the same sort of game as well.

STOMP


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

STOMP said:


> I doubt that the Hornets are looking to use that valuble capspace to absorb another SFs contract as Gerald Wallace is one of their better starters. IMO he's about at the same level of effectiveness as Darius and Rube... he pretty much plays the same sort of game as well.
> 
> STOMP


Wallace is a RFA this summer. Darius may be considered a better SF to them as he can play the Point Forward a bit, Wallace is a flashy guy, but I don't think he's in the same boat as Drius is. On the Bobcats Darius averages 18ppg IMO.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Schilly said:


> Wallace is a RFA this summer. Darius may be considered a better SF to them as he can play the Point Forward a bit, Wallace is a flashy guy, but I don't think he's in the same boat as Drius is. On the Bobcats Darius averages 18ppg IMO.


What points to this? They averaged about the same minutes last season, and put up very similar numbers. Niether has a reliable jumper and both do the bulk of their scoring in transition. The Bobs do have to resign Wallace, but I doubt that they'll end up paying him as much as Portland did Darius... I certainly doubt he'll have a worse contract. 

I wouldn't be surprised Portland does find a way to deal with Charlotte, I just doubt that it will be for the deal you've proposed. 

STOMP


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

I just think it is funny that he is offering the same deal to ATL that he is to POR.....and niether team is showing interest...

The #5 and #13 won't get the #2....You know ATL is asking for more than that...So bernie floats out this #5 & #13 for #2 and a player or draft pick.....The same thing he offered to POR as a compromise to his #5 and future worthless pick(lotto protect til 2009)......

I still maintain that CHA is POR 1st option and TOR is the 2nd....I also think that CHA & POR could reach a compromise, where POR gets both picks and CHA gets the #3 and a player...this is looking more likely to me....But you just know Bernie will request an Outlaw, Khryapa, Monia or Ha (he just can't be foolish enough to ask for Telfair, could he?)...who if I were POR would say....NO WAY.....

DA, Ruben for sure would be acceptable IMO...I would think parting with the rights to Sinanovic would be acceptable....Miles, Theo possibly could be options as well, but CHA would have to give a player or two back to POR of actual interest....

I still think POR should play hardball and see if Bernie cracks, b\c I think he will...and I think he wants Paul badly (Marvin even moreso), but I do think that b\t Bernie's offer of #5 & #13 for #3 and Future pick and POR request of #3 for #5 and #13 there is room for compromise..........

I think the concern for POR could really be with NO...Who IMO also wants Paul, the question is if Paul is off the board, then whom do they select? Green would bea legit option for them IMO.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Kmurph said:


> I think the concern for POR could really be with NO...Who IMO also wants Paul, the question is if Paul is off the board, then whom do they select? Green would bea legit option for them IMO.


It might just be smoke, but NO reportedly has made a promise to Deron Williams. I don't think that Green would be all that appealing to them because they need a PG and this is a great opportunity for them to get a good one, while they've already got a player in JR Smith he's a young swingman.

Ed O.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Ed O said:


> It might just be smoke, but NO reportedly has made a promise to Deron Williams. I don't think that Green would be all that appealing to them because they need a PG and this is a great opportunity for them to get a good one, while they've already got a player in JR Smith he's a young swingman.
> 
> Ed O.


I agree totally, They should be able to add Williams and then maybe a SF in the 2nd round....PG is their most pressing need.

They have SMith, Brown and Magloire that are decent enough players at their positions and nailon and Nachbar that can play the 3....But PG is sour even with Claxton on board...Speedy "Half Season" Claxton.


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## cimalee (Apr 17, 2003)

The problem with dealing with Toronto , Green will be picked up before the 7th pick


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## GOD (Jun 22, 2003)

How about the Blazers pick Deron or Paul, whoever Bickerstaff wants, and then once they pick Green at 5, we trade Deron/Paul and DA for Green. The Blazers get the player they want, and Bickerstaff gets their player but has to absorb DA's salery.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

thylo said:


> How about the Blazers pick Deron or Paul, whoever Bickerstaff wants, and then once they pick Green at 5, we trade Deron/Paul and DA for Green. The Blazers get the player they want, and Bickerstaff gets their player but has to absorb DA's salery.


iirc, they can't just absorb DA's contract. It'd be nice if they could tho.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

thylo said:


> How about the Blazers pick Deron or Paul, whoever Bickerstaff wants, and then once they pick Green at 5, we trade Deron/Paul and DA for Green. The Blazers get the player they want, and Bickerstaff gets their player but has to absorb DA's salery.


DA is Portland's only SG currently under contract... I'd imagine management has much better info then us to gauge whether they should ever put trust into DA's health again... IMO it's very possible that they might have good reason too gamble on him playing well again. Anyways, drafting Green with plans of giving him real minutes right off the bat would be dumb planning IMO. _Maybe_ he could earn a role in camp, but depending on a HS'er day one year one is probably not a good idea for that players developement. It could work, but I'd much rather bring him along slowly at first... have an assistant coach in his ear during games for the first half of the year like they did with Telfair.

I can see the swap of picks happening, as Paul would be a great lead guy for the new Bobcats organization both on and off the court. That he's a local kid makes it seems like too perfect a match for them to not go after Portland's up for sale pick. I'd imagine several other teams will be making offers for the Paul pick as well.

I think the Bobs 2nd 1st is their most attractive tradeable asset. Others have brought up swapping players, naming Rube and Darius... I think they'd much prefer Monia or Khryapa. They need more outside shooting to spread the court. Their current SF Gerald Wallace gives them little from the perimeter. Portland has to thin their SF ranks... 5 is at least a couple too many. Of the two Russians, I guess I'd prefer moving Monia from Portland's end as the Blazers have more need of Vic's size. I'm sort of talking out my bum here as I've never seen Monia play, but anyways... 

With the 2nd 1st Portland would probably be looking to add another guard or big to balance the roster out better.

STOMP


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

I think giving up Monia is overpaying to CHA

#3 and Monia for #5 and #13???

Why is POR helping CHA out here? CHA is the team that gets to move up from #5 to #3, something which they obviously want to do....and for that POR moves DOWN 2 spots AND gives up a young player in Monia to get the 13th pick?

Come Again?

Let's assume that POR values the 13th pick more than they do Monia ...which at sight unseen in an NBA atmosphere and based upon scouting reports is a highly dubious assumption....

It still doesn't explain what CHA is paying POR to move from #5 to #3...So where is that incentive for POR? The same thing (but even moreso IMO) goes for POR adding Khryapa, Outlaw, Telfair, Pryzbilla or Ha....

It just doesn't make any sense from a POR standpoint, and I just HIGHLY doubt that Nash views the 13th pick so much that he is willing to trade Monia AND move down in order to get it....

I am sure Bickerstaff would LOVE it though....great deal for him.....just sucks for POR.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Kmurph said:


> I am sure Bickerstaff would LOVE it though....great deal for him.....just sucks for POR.


I think you're vastly overrating Monya. There's been no good reports on him in the last year (since Portland took him) that I have seen... his stats and minutes decreased, and at 22 he's not the youngest prospect in the history of the world.

If Monya were in this draft, I can't see him going in the first half of the first round based on what I know now.

I think that #3 + Monya for #'s 5 and 13 is a decent deal for Portland, if Green is a guy they really value and they can get him at the #5 spot.

Ed O.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Kmurph said:


> I think giving up Monia is overpaying to CHA
> 
> #3 and Monia for #5 and #13???
> 
> ...


OK Mr Math hows this equation look to you...

#3 (2005) + #23 (2004) for #5 (2005) + #13 (2005)

3+23= 26
5+13= 18 



> I am sure Bickerstaff would LOVE it though....great deal for him.....just sucks for POR.


I think thats really overstating things. Portland would get the guy they want in this draft plus move one of their quality SF prospects for a quality prospect who plays a position of need.

STOMP


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

Come on now...we are talking a 3 player draft here ...No?

Bogut, Marvin and Paul

IMO the value from moving #5 to #3, particularly in a 3 player draft, where there is a tier...is greater than moving from #23 to #13...

And how am I vastly overating Monia? He barely played for CSKA this year (was like the 7th-8th man), and it was well known his coach screwed with his playing time b\c he opted to go...and was heading to the NBA this year...he played younger player who WILL be with CSKA next year at Monia's expense....

So he saw uneven\limited minutes, and yet when he did play, he showed a very good shooting touch (especially from the 3pt line, showed the ability to rebound and play good defense....Are those not things POR could use?

Why trade such a player until you can see him yourself firsthand anyway? That would be stupid....

Don't get hoodwinked by Bickerstaff here...let him take Green...If I am POR I take the best trade possible...take Webster, Wright or Green if he is still there & add another pick...and keep Monia.....


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

I would consider adding Monia to the mix. ...While this is a 3 player draft the 2nd and 3rd batches are pretty enticing which is why no one is drooling all over themselves to trade up apparently....

Who would be a better option for us? Diogu or Monia? Obviously it's tough for us to tell, but we do know that Nash and Pritchard have made several trips to Russia this year apparently to check in on Monia I would assume.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Kmurph said:


> And how am I vastly overating Monia? He barely played for CSKA this year (was like the 7th-8th man), and it was well known his coach screwed with his playing time b\c he opted to go...and was heading to the NBA this year...he played younger player who WILL be with CSKA next year at Monia's expense....
> 
> So he saw uneven\limited minutes, and yet when he did play, he showed a very good shooting touch (especially from the 3pt line, showed the ability to rebound and play good defense....Are those not things POR could use?


He's a small forward. He'll be probably the fourth-best SF on the team, assuming Viktor plays at the 4, otherwise he'll be the fifth-best.

He was, at best, a #14 pick last year (Utah reportedly was very interested in him). He's a year older this year and I haven't seen anything to indicate he's any better than he was last year. You can blame his minutes on the coach all you want, but he played more last year than he did this year, and him going pro wasn't a secret last year. They simply decided, IMO, to play better players.



> Why trade such a player until you can see him yourself firsthand anyway? That would be stupid....


Players get traded all the time without playing for the team that originally drafted them. I don't think that you need to have the player on your roster for a period of time before you try to get value for them.



> Don't get hoodwinked by Bickerstaff here...let him take Green...If I am POR I take the best trade possible...take Webster, Wright or Green if he is still there & add another pick...and keep Monia.....


I agree with everything you say except the Monia part. I'd much rather have Green and the #13 pick than Green and Monia.

If we can get a better deal while hanging onto Monia: fantastic. Do it. But don't let a Sergei Monya, of all people, be the reason you don't make a deal.

Ed O.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Oddly enough I agree with Ed.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Ed O said:


> He's a small forward. He'll be probably the fourth-best SF on the team, assuming Viktor plays at the 4, otherwise he'll be the fifth-best.


how do you figure he's behind viktor, who's openly said Sergie was much better than him? 

I think Outlaw can play SG (same with Monia) so they'll have minutes there, if they decide to keep him. 



> He was, at best, a #14 pick last year (Utah reportedly was very interested in him). He's a year older this year and I haven't seen anything to indicate he's any better than he was last year. You can blame his minutes on the coach all you want, but he played more last year than he did this year, and him going pro wasn't a secret last year. They simply decided, IMO, to play better players.


I thought we went into this earlier, where they don't necessarily play younger guys as much as vet's, just because thats how they work.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Hap said:


> how do you figure he's behind viktor, who's openly said Sergie was much better than him?


I haven't seen Viktor say that Monya was much better than he was. Viktor's the one who started and played the lion's share of the minutes when they were both on CSKA.



> I think Outlaw can play SG (same with Monia) so they'll have minutes there, if they decide to keep him.


Monia has never played the 2 spot and doesn't consider himself a shooting guard. Maybe he'll be able to play off-guard in the NBA, but I doubt he'll do it effectively right off the bat.



> I thought we went into this earlier, where they don't necessarily play younger guys as much as vet's, just because thats how they work.


Viktor played more than Monya at the same age, and Andrei did, as well. Heck... last year Monia played more than this year Monia. 

While I think it's true that international teams often defer to older players in terms of playing time, I'm not sure that his dip in playing time can be attributed to age discrimination. CSKA went all-out to win this year, and if Monya were good enough I think that he would have been given minutes.

Ed O.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Ed O said:


> I haven't seen Viktor say that Monya was much better than he was. Viktor's the one who started and played the lion's share of the minutes when they were both on CSKA.


he said it when he was on Courtside (twice). and MB (and others) have repeated it. 


> Monia has never played the 2 spot and doesn't consider himself a shooting guard. Maybe he'll be able to play off-guard in the NBA, but I doubt he'll do it effectively right off the bat.


who gives a crap if he can't do it effectively right off the bat? are any of us expecting him to do it effectively right off the bat? 



> Viktor played more than Monya at the same age, and Andrei did, as well. Heck... last year Monia played more than this year Monia.
> 
> While I think it's true that international teams often defer to older players in terms of playing time, I'm not sure that his dip in playing time can be attributed to age discrimination. CSKA went all-out to win this year, and if Monya were good enough I think that he would have been given minutes.
> 
> Ed O.


I disagree with your assesment. I think the team should call up Charlotte and say if they want #3 (for Paul) they'll take Darius +#35 and give us #5 and #13. 

If not, oh darn. we don't get a precious 2nd 1st round pick, and we just pick we want at #3. 

trading team orientated smart defensive minded players, who can shoot, is stupid.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Hap said:


> he said it when he was on Courtside (twice). and MB (and others) have repeated it.


Interesting. Weird that CSKA coaches didn't seem to agree, though.



> who gives a crap if he can't do it effectively right off the bat? are any of us expecting him to do it effectively right off the bat?


Do you expect him to play minutes when he cannot play the position effectively?

I can't see that happening.



> I disagree with your assesment.


What part of the assessment? That CSKA went all-out to win?

Or that a team that's going all-out to win would not hold down a player that had played significant minutes previously just to "get" him?



> I think the team should call up Charlotte and say if they want #3 (for Paul) they'll take Darius +#35 and give us #5 and #13.


They should do that, sure. But a "take it or leave it" offer seems strange and overly simplistic.



> If not, oh darn. we don't get a precious 2nd 1st round pick, and we just pick we want at #3.


I don't know if you're just being difficult or what, but a 2nd first round pick, especially one like the #13, is pretty darn valuable.



> trading team orientated smart defensive minded players, who can shoot, is stupid.


Not necessarily. It depends on what you get for them.

Ed O.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Hap said:


> trading team orientated smart defensive minded players, who can shoot, is stupid.


Even if we are talking about trading said prospect for a prospect of equal or greater ability who plays a position where the team actually has a need? To me it seems that your position is the not so bright one.

STOMP


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Ed O said:


> Interesting. Weird that CSKA coaches didn't seem to agree, though.


interesting. Damon got much more minutes last year than Telfair did. Same with NVE.



> Do you expect him to play minutes when he can play the position effectively?
> 
> I can't see that happening.


I expect him, like any other rookie, to play minutes and be a little big frantic. Just like Viktor last year, he wasn't necessarily a "SF" as much as a "player" on the court. 



> They should do that, sure. But a "take it or leave it" offer seems strange and overly simplistic.


not really. the Blazers are the ones who have the pull here, not charlotte. It's Charlotte that wants Paul, not Portland (in theory). If they draft Paul, they can just trade him to another team, and watch Charlotte not get the player they want. 

For example, they could draft Paul, trade him to Utah for either Webster or Green (whoever is left of the two) and then tell Charlotte to kiss off. 



> I don't know if you're just being difficult or what, but a 2nd first round pick, especially one like the #13, is pretty darn valuable.


but it's not necessary. I doubt that the #13 would be much more valuable to the team than Monia is, to the point where it's extremely important to make that trade.


> Not necessarily. It depends on what you get for them.
> 
> Ed O.


I don't know. Why are the Pistons and Spurs doing so good right now (outside of Duncan)? 

Team orientated, defensive minded, good outside shooting players. The more role players you have, who know their role and play it well, the better. We've done the "let's get athletic freaks at the expense of smart players" route before. 

If you ask me if I'd rather trade Darius + #3 for #5 and #13, or Monia + #3, I'd trade the first one.

Outlaw needs to play big minutes next year, and with Darius on the team, he won't.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

STOMP said:


> Even if we are talking about trading said prospect for a prospect of equal or greater ability who plays a position where the team actually has a need? To me it seems that your position is the not so bright one.
> 
> STOMP


I'd rather trade the guy who's not team orientated, doesn't have a decent outside shot, doesn't play smart defense (Darius), and is ahead of a guy who IS team orientated, and has a decent outside shot (Outlaw). 

I'd rather trade the guy who still, after *5* years in the league, hasn't arrived. Still hasn't improved his outside shot that much. 

I'd rather trade the guy who's contract is bigger.

I'd rather trade the guy who doesn't have base line fundementals and doesn't see the point in playing hard every game.

I'd rather keep the guy who probably is a better shooter, better team player and smarter. 

Thats why I'd rather trade Darius + #3 for #5 and #13 (and filler).


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

Well put Hap....

I just don't see why POR should bend over backward to accomodate Bickerstaff...IF he wants the #3, then let him deal both picks, otherwise he can take a hike as gfar as I am concerned...I am not convinced that Green is any better than Webster is at this point.....
Trading down to get Webster @ #7, pick up our b\u PF at #16 and pick the best player available (Hodge? Nate Robisnon? Diener? Head) @ #35....AND possibly offload DA for MoPete....

That sounds TONS better to me than getting a pick (#13) 3 spots higher in the middle og the 1st round...and with UTA @ #6, I doubt they pick Webster or Green...in fact I seriously doubt bothe Webster AND Green are gone before #7.....

Too many people are "locked" into Green.....I like him, but I like Webster nearly as much, and I don't think we can tell at this point who the better NBA player will be.....

At least Webster came to compete...Where is Green? Oh yeah...he is a top 3 pick (so he says)...who doesn't feel he needs to prove it.......


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Hap said:


> I'd rather trade the guy who's not team orientated, doesn't have a decent outside shot, doesn't play smart defense (Darius), and is ahead of a guy who IS team orientated, and has a decent outside shot (Outlaw).
> 
> I'd rather trade the guy who still, after *5* years in the league, hasn't arrived. Still hasn't improved his outside shot that much.
> 
> ...


...and if I were Charlotte and you (as acting Portland GM) proposed this, I'd probably pull away the phone to chuckle and then say _thanks but no thanks!_ 

Darius duplicates what they already have in Wallace, as does Ruben. If they are to take on a 3, he ought to be an upgrade or at least complimentry to what they have in place, and they need more outside threats. It's not just about what would be best for Portland.

STOMP


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Hap said:


> interesting. Damon got much more minutes last year than Telfair did. Same with NVE.


Well, they were each significantly better than Telfair. They were also over a decade older.

Viktor is, what, 6 months older than Sergei?



> I expect him, like any other rookie, to play minutes and be a little big frantic. Just like Viktor last year, he wasn't necessarily a "SF" as much as a "player" on the court.


I don't buy it. With Miles and Patterson and Outlaw on the team, even assuming each of them can play both swing spots, Monya will be on the outside looking in. If Miles and Patterson and Outlaw play 28 minutes each, that leaves 12 minutes a game for Monia... and it seems that DA is still going to get some minutes at the 2 and Viktor's going to get some at the 3, so Monya's minutes look even more sparse.



> not really. the Blazers are the ones who have the pull here, not charlotte. It's Charlotte that wants Paul, not Portland (in theory). If they draft Paul, they can just trade him to another team, and watch Charlotte not get the player they want.
> 
> For example, they could draft Paul, trade him to Utah for either Webster or Green (whoever is left of the two) and then tell Charlotte to kiss off.


Being adversarial, by setting a certain deal that you will accept and no other, IS simplistic and would probably be counterproductive. 



> but it's not necessary. I doubt that the #13 would be much more valuable to the team than Monia is, to the point where it's extremely important to make that trade.


Monya will be buried on the bench in the near term and is an inferior prospect to others at the swing spots in the long term (especially if we draft Green). At #13, Portland can take a big man or a PG that will provide more evenly distributed talent.



> I don't know. Why are the Pistons and Spurs doing so good right now (outside of Duncan)?
> 
> Team orientated, defensive minded, good outside shooting players. The more role players you have, who know their role and play it well, the better. We've done the "let's get athletic freaks at the expense of smart players" route before.


If you have all role players (meaning mediocre players that know their role), you're going to be a lottery team. You need to have good players that know their roles to have a lot of success. 

It's easier to get role players than it is to get good players, IMO. There's no guarantee that a good player is going to accept a role, but it's more likely than a role player getting good.



> If you ask me if I'd rather trade Darius + #3 for #5 and #13, or Monia + #3, I'd trade the first one.


Miles is, IMO, much better than Monya right now and he's only about a year and a half older than Sergei, so I expect him to remain so forever.

Trading a starting-caliber player like Miles rather than an entirely unproven quantity like Sergei doesn't make sense to me.



> Outlaw needs to play big minutes next year, and with Darius on the team, he won't.


I don't agree that Outlaw "needs" to play big minutes, first of all. I hope that we play our best players the minutes that are due them, and I hope that Outlaw earns those minutes.

Miles is entirely too young and too talented to be traded merely to create minutes for younger players.

Ed O.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

STOMP said:


> ...and if I were Charlotte and you (as acting Portland GM) proposed this, I'd probably pull away the phone to chuckle and then say _thanks but no thanks!_
> 
> Darius duplicates what they already have in Wallace, as does Ruben. If they are to take on a 3, he ought to be an upgrade or at least complimentry to what they have in place, and they need more outside threats. It's not just about what would be best for Portland.
> 
> STOMP


I thought I heard somewhere that G Wallace had a bad reputation or something or otheruther. They might not like Wallace, or think he's worth keeping. I'd much rather have Darius than G Wallace. 

If Charlotte wants the #3 pick bad enough (assumingly to take Paul) they aren't the ones with the power. If they want Paul bad enough but won't do the trade we want, Portland could just take him, and trade him to Utah for Webster or Green (whoever is left) and their 2nd pick.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

> ...and if I were Charlotte and you (as acting Portland GM) proposed this, I'd probably pull away the phone to chuckle and then say thanks but no thanks!


Then I'd say have fun watching Chris Paul play for another team next year...


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Ed O said:


> Well, they were each significantly better than Telfair. They were also over a decade older.
> 
> Viktor is, what, 6 months older than Sergei?


but but but...he wasn't getting minutes..that must mean he stinks!



> I don't buy it. With Miles and Patterson and Outlaw on the team, even assuming each of them can play both swing spots, Monya will be on the outside looking in.


what if the team wants to keep Monia and trade Miles and Patterson?



> If Miles and Patterson and Outlaw play 28 minutes each, that leaves 12 minutes a game for Monia... and it seems that DA is still going to get some minutes at the 2 and Viktor's going to get some at the 3, so Monya's minutes look even more sparse.


not if they trade Miles instead of Monia.



> Monya will be buried on the bench in the near term and is an inferior prospect to others at the swing spots in the long term (especially if we draft Green). At #13, Portland can take a big man or a PG that will provide more evenly distributed talent.


we don't know if he's a "inferior" prospect. Draft location doesn't = prospect level.


> If you have all role players (meaning mediocre players that know their role), you're going to be a lottery team. You need to have good players that know their roles to have a lot of success.


I like how you're implying I'm saying that we're going to have 12 role players. way to go.



> It's easier to get role players than it is to get good players, IMO. There's no guarantee that a good player is going to accept a role, but it's more likely than a role player getting good.


I'm not suggesting we have 12 role players Ed. I'm not suggesting we don't get other players that are better. 



> Miles is, IMO, much better than Monya right now and he's only about a year and a half older than Sergei, so I expect him to remain so forever.


Monia already has 2 things going for him that Darius doesn't. 

An idea what defense is, and an idea of what shooting ability is.



> Trading a starting-caliber player like Miles rather than an entirely unproven quantity like Sergei doesn't make sense to me.


It's so they can open a roster spot for Outlaw, mostly. Or Green (assuming thats who they take). Because chances are very good, if we draft Green, he'll either get about the same # of minutes MOnia would, or if he starts, we'd have a wasted very costly player, in Darius.



> Miles is entirely too young and too talented to be traded merely to create minutes for younger players.
> 
> Ed O.


after 5 years, he still doesn't have a decent outside shot. I'd say that trading him , so a younger player who's already light years ahead of him in the shooting department, and plays under control, isn't a bad thing.

btw, where does Green (or Webster) get minutes if they trade Monia instead of Miles? Don't we have the *same* problem? What about in a year if Green is better than Miles? How do you trade Miles then?

Because if you can trade him now, you do it. Because if in a year he's not better than Green, it basically means he spent another year having a ****ty shooting year, sub-par free throw shooting, and took games off, didn't try that much off the bench, and another year older.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Ed O said:


> Viktor played more than Monya at the same age, and Andrei did, as well. Heck... last year Monia played more than this year Monia.
> 
> While I think it's true that international teams often defer to older players in terms of playing time, I'm not sure that his dip in playing time can be attributed to age discrimination. CSKA went all-out to win this year, and if Monya were good enough I think that he would have been given minutes.
> 
> Ed O.


Monya played on a much better TEAM at the same age as Victor, which is much of why he got fewer minutes. The 03/04 team wasn't nearly as good as the 04/05 team. 

And if you read some of the articles on the CSKA website, they say the the main reason Monya didn't play much last year is, not so much that the defer to older players as the defer to players who aren't definitely leaving for the NBA the next year. That comes straight from the horses mouth, so I don't see how you can argue against that.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Kmurph said:


> Then I'd say have fun watching Chris Paul play for another team next year...


If I'm Bernie that wouldn't be ideally what I'd hope for, but I'd be OK with selecting my future SG in Green #5 and Felton, Jack, or Roko-Ukic #13. I'd know that I'd done the best I could with my options. 

I'm a big fan of Chris Paul, but I think ya'll are acting like the Bobs are backed into a corner and have to have him.

STOMP


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Fork said:


> Monya played on a much better TEAM at the same age as Victor, which is much of why he got fewer minutes. The 03/04 team wasn't nearly as good as the 04/05 team.
> 
> And if you read some of the articles on the CSKA website, they say the the main reason Monya didn't play much last year is, not so much that the defer to older players as the defer to players who aren't definitely leaving for the NBA the next year. That comes straight from the horses mouth, so I don't see how you can argue against that.


So are you saying that Monia was good enough to play last year, but didn't?

Or are you saying that he wasn't good enough to play because the team was better than it had been the year before?

It seems like people are willing to grasp at anything to explain why Monia didn't do well except for the easiest answer: he just wasn't good enough.

Ed O.


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## Foulzilla (Jan 11, 2005)

Hap said:


> he said it when he was on Courtside (twice). and MB (and others) have repeated it.


I believe techinically he stated that Monia was a better _shooter_. Not a better player. Regardless, I also don't think we should have to throw in Monia.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Ed O said:


> So are you saying that Monia was good enough to play last year, but didn't?
> 
> Or are you saying that he wasn't good enough to play because the team was better than it had been the year before?
> 
> ...



yep, the guy sucked.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Ed O said:


> So are you saying that Monia was good enough to play last year, but didn't?
> 
> Or are you saying that he wasn't good enough to play because the team was better than it had been the year before?
> 
> ...


The first paragraph was a response to your statement that Khryapa got bigger minutes at the age of 21 than Monia did at the age of 21. It's not as if, magically, the team was identical over a 2 year period. The 04/05 team was far deeper and better than the 03/04 team. 

The second paragraph is pointing out the obvious fact that CSKA doesn't play players the KNOW to be leaving, regardless of skill. 

I'm not saying anything at all about what his overall skill level is. He might be the worst player in the league. But to ingore the circumstances I outlined above is strange.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Hap said:


> I thought I heard somewhere that G Wallace had a bad reputation or something or otheruther. They might not like Wallace, or think he's worth keeping. I'd much rather have Darius than G Wallace.


Ha! Just posts ago, you were listing multiple reasons why basically Darius sucks (IYO), and then to you throw out a vague..._"I thought I heard somewhere that G Wallace had a bad reputation or something or otheruther"_. You ignore that they have virtually the same stats and game, and declare you'd my much rather have Darius then Gerald. It's pretty ironic (IMO) that you'd site another players supposive bad character and then suggest that Darius is the guy for them in supporting your hypothetical. 

Which is it? Is Darius the overpaid, selfish, no upside, lazy, no outside shooting, poor fundamentals, and bad defensive player that you derided in one post or is he the much better option then the productive player whose already there who you feel Charlotte should trade a lotto pick for in the other post? 

STOMP


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

STOMP said:


> Ha! Just posts ago, you were listing multiple reasons why basically Darius sucks (IYO), and then to you throw out a vague..._"I thought I heard somewhere that G Wallace had a bad reputation or something or otheruther"_. You ignore that they have virtually the same stats and game, and declare you'd my much rather have Darius then Gerald. It's pretty ironic (IMO) that you'd site another players supposive bad character and then suggest that Darius is the guy for them in supporting your hypothetical.


not really. I think Bonzi Wells is an A 1 *** hole, but I'd rather have him than Gerald Wallace.

I dont think Gerald Wallace as the same "game" as Darius either. Neither one is exactly "blowing up", but I don't recall the Kings being overly upset that they let Wallace go in the expansion draft.

I also don't think the 25th pick in the draft means he has that great of a "upside" (and it's not like he dropped due to a buy-out issue with his then current team).


> Which is it? Is Darius the overpaid, selfish, no upside, lazy, no outside shooting, poor fundamentals, and bad defensive player that you derided in one post or is he the much better option then the productive player whose already there who you feel Charlotte should trade a lotto pick for in the other post?
> 
> STOMP


for starters, if being productive equals 11 points on a really really REALLY bad team, I'm not sure if thats saying much. Secondly, I was comparing Darius to Outlaw (and Monia), under the assumption the team felt that way about Darius and Outlaw.

If the B'cats want Paul bad enough (assuming thats who they want) they can take on Darius.


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## Spoolie Gee (Feb 3, 2005)

Hap said:


> I dont think Gerald Wallace as the same "game" as Darius either.


 
Heh, yea. I dont think Wallace could drop 47 off the bench. Not that Miles does that often but it just shows how much upside he's got.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Fork said:


> The first paragraph was a response to your statement that Khryapa got bigger minutes at the age of 21 than Monia did at the age of 21. It's not as if, magically, the team was identical over a 2 year period. The 04/05 team was far deeper and better than the 03/04 team.


The two players are essentially the same age. Monya and Viktor are six months apart, and Monya consistently played behind Viktor in the rotation. That's independent of the strength or weaknesses of the different CSKA teams.

If we compared 03-04 Viktor to 04-05 Monya, then Monya got fewer minutes in spite of being slightly older than Viktor. In that case, the two teams' differences matter more.

I'm not so sure that the latest CSKA team was "far deeper" than the 03-04 team, though. Especially at the small forward position, the only significant addition that I can see is Antonio Granger. With the departure of Khryapa, it seems reasonable that Monya could have earned minutes if he were good enough.

The other additions that made CSKA a better team involved big guys (Andersen, Muursepp, Dikoudis) and I don't see how they restricted the number of minutes that Monya received.

Ed O.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Foulzilla said:


> I believe techinically he stated that Monia was a better _shooter_. Not a better player.


I remember hearing *that*. I thought I'd missed something.

Ed O.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Hap said:


> for starters, if being productive equals 11 points on a really really REALLY bad team, I'm not sure if thats saying much. Secondly, I was comparing Darius to Outlaw (and Monia), under the assumption the team felt that way about Darius and Outlaw.


Of course Darius averaged a mighty 13 pts per game in about the same minutes (27 to 30) as Gerald on a really REALLY bad team himself this last year. Darius did shoot a higher % from the field (48% to 45%) but Gerald had more RBs (5.5 to 4.7) and STLs (1.7 to 1.2)... their other stats were pretty even. Like I said those two players strike me as about equal in their impact on a game, but of course you took the time to point out all of DM's negative intangables including his terrible contract.



> If the B'cats want Paul bad enough (assuming thats who they want) they can take on Darius.


There would be nothing to prevent them from changing their uniforms colors to pink and green but common sense... I guess you forgot the part where I was acting as the Bobs GM and laughed and then rejected your proposal. Stranger deals have gone down in the past, but there is no way with all the options available to me (as acting Charlotte GM) that I'd go for your hypothetical. 

STOMP


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

STOMP said:


> your reasoning sounds more like guesses. Darius averaged a mighty 13 pts per game in about the same minutes (27 to 30) as Gerald on a really REALLY bad team himself this last year. Darius did shoot a higher % from the field (48% to 45%) but Gerald had more RBs (5.5 to 4.7) and STLs (1.7 to 1.2)... their other stats were pretty even. Like I said those two players strike me as about equal in their impact on a game, but of course you took the time to point out all of DM's negative intangables including his terrible contract.


I think there's a reason Wallace was basically let go by the Kings. 



> There would be nothing to prevent them from changing their uniforms colors to pink and green but common sense... I guess you forgot the part where I was acting as the Bobs GM and laughed and then rejected your proposal. Stranger deals have gone down in the past, but there is no way with all the options available to me (as acting Charlotte GM) that I'd go for your hypothetical.
> 
> STOMP


ah ha! But you forgot the part where I played the part of the Blazers GM, and laughed at the Bobcats proposal of Monia! Ha ha! ANd then you forgot that I said that the b'cats should change their colors to pink and green! Ha ha!

There's no way with all the options available to the BLazers they should go for the Monia trade either. 

If they want to get out of Darius's contract. If they want to keep Monia. If they want to draft Paul and trade him to Utah with DA (?)...


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Not that it answers anything, but I asked John Nash (just about 20 minutes ago too) what the difference/similiarities between Viktor and Serg were.

here is what he said.



> Viktor is more of a jack of all trades while Monia is a long range shooter
> and better offensive player.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Hap said:


> I think there's a reason Wallace was basically let go by the Kings.


Yep. An expansion draft.

The Kings had to make a tough call as to which players to leave unprotected, and the Bobcats picked Wallace first because he's a good prospect. The Kings had a bunch of free agents and had to leave one player unprotected. 

Who else should the Kings have left unprotected? Read the blurb about Gerald W. at http://kingzine.net/. I guess they could have left Webber unprotected, and either way (him chosen or not) they would have been better off than losing Wallace...

Ed O.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Ed O said:


> Yep. An expansion draft.
> 
> The Kings had to make a tough call as to which players to leave unprotected, and the Bobcats picked Wallace first because he's a good prospect. The Kings had a bunch of free agents and had to leave one player unprotected.
> 
> ...


exactly. if he was as important as he's being made out to be, they would've left Wbber of instead. 

The B'cats weren't going to take Webber. His contract would basically take up what, 3/4rds of their salary cap, and even if they were successful in trading him, they wouldn't get much for him.

And the Kings could've given the B'cats incentive for not taking him.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

> I'm a big fan of Chris Paul, but I think ya'll are acting like the Bobs are backed into a corner and have to have him.


Well for a GM that doesn't "have to" have him...Bickerstaff sure is trying to bully his way into getting the 3rd pick now isn't he? I mean this is just ridiculous...how many times has Bernie mentioned acquiring POR #3 pick? or threatening (outright in one instance) to take POR player if they trade with another team behind them? I mean come on...defend that...please....

POR didn't back them into a corner...Bickerstaff did that all by himself...Did you not catch his act at the draft lotto? He wants Paul, and he is hoping he can scare POR into a deal to his liking....but a guy trying this hard to MANUFACTURE a deal, usually ends up paying the fee in the end.....desperate GM's do desperate things...and Bernie is sure acting like a desperate man....

IF he liked Felton or Green anywhere near the amount he liked Paul he wouldn't be pushing for POR pick as much as he is now would he? 

Please don't tell me he wants to trade up to get Felton......


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Ed O said:


> The two players are essentially the same age. Monya and Viktor are six months apart, and Monya consistently played behind Viktor in the rotation. That's independent of the strength or weaknesses of the different CSKA teams.
> 
> If we compared 03-04 Viktor to 04-05 Monya, then Monya got fewer minutes in spite of being slightly older than Viktor. In that case, the two teams' differences matter more.
> 
> ...



For the record, Monia is 8.5 months younger than Victor. 

Again, you're ignoring the fact that Monia was KNOWN to be leaving the team after this season. Why do you repeatedly fail to acknowledge that fact? Why would you think that that means nothing in regard to his playing time?


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Kmurph said:


> Well for a GM that doesn't "have to" have him...Bickerstaff sure is trying to bully his way into getting the 3rd pick now isn't he? I mean this is just ridiculous...how many times has Bernie mentioned acquiring POR #3 pick? or threatening (outright in one instance) to take POR player if they trade with another team behind them? I mean come on...defend that...please....
> 
> POR didn't back them into a corner...Bickerstaff did that all by himself...Did you not catch his act at the draft lotto? He wants Paul, and he is hoping he can scare POR into a deal to his liking....but a guy trying this hard to MANUFACTURE a deal, usually ends up paying the fee in the end.....desperate GM's do desperate things...and Bernie is sure acting like a desperate man....
> 
> ...


thats my thinking too, kmurph. The B'cats are the ones doing the pushing, not Portland. 

I dont think that Portland wants to trade down so much, that they'll trade away a player they like, just to get another player they wanted, that they could just as easily get at the spot they're at. If they're going to make a trade, where they give up the higher pick, they're the ones who are going to be controlling who is traded for who. 

Especially since if the B'cats want someone at 3, it's obviously not someone they could get at 5. So why would they be wanting to get #3? Becuase there's a player they can't get, and apparently want really bad, at #3. 

So if thats the case, Portland says "make it worth MY time"...not "I'll make it worth YOUR time".

Portland isn't the one who's going to be giving up what they don't want to give up. They'll give up only what they want to give up, otherwise, the B'cats aren't getting the pick *they* want. 

If it's true, as Stomp said, that they'd just take someone else @ #5 if we tell them to take Darius instead of Monia, then they obviously didn't want the player at #3 as bad as we think. But why would they be so public about wanting #3? 

If Charlotte wants Paul, let's say, they aren't getting him @ #5. And if Portland knows they want Paul, but won't take our trade offer, we'll just trade him to Utah for their picks. 

And Charlotte will be stuck with a player they didn't necessarily want (altho I doubt who they'd be "stuck" with would be bad).


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Hap said:


> ah ha! But you forgot the part where I played the part of the Blazers GM, and laughed at the Bobcats proposal of Monia! Ha ha! ANd then you forgot that I said that the b'cats should change their colors to pink and green! Ha ha!
> 
> There's no way with all the options available to the BLazers they should go for the Monia trade either.


I don't recall forgetting anything :wink: ... I especially dont recall reproposing my rejected deal like you've continued to do. 



> If they want to get out of Darius's contract. If they want to keep Monia. If they want to draft Paul and trade him to Utah with DA (?)...


These options are lined up??? Well hot bleep! Thats great! Darius (maligned guy that he is) is going to be moved for lotto picks and salary relief? The Blazers will retain all the youngest guys? Brilliant! Why didn't you say so... Utah is going to take DA too? Super! 

You're right my deal sucks. Whens all this going down?

STOMP


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

STOMP said:


> I don't recall forgetting anything :wink: ... I especially dont recall reproposing my rejected deal like you've continued to do.


my comments, thus the ha ha!, were laced heavily with humor.



> These options are lined up??? Well hot bleep! Thats great! Darius (maligned guy that he is) is going to be moved for lotto picks and salary relief? The Blazers will retain all the youngest guys? Brilliant! Why didn't you say so... Utah is going to take DA too? Super!


you ever hear of the concept of "hey, these might be reasons why"?

as in, those might be reasons why the team doesn't do this trade, along with the reasons I alluded to earlier.



> You're right my deal sucks. Whens all this going down?
> 
> STOMP


If teams want a player, and in the case of the bobcats NEED players (they have 4 under contract for next year) they need players.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Kmurph said:


> Well for a GM that doesn't "have to" have him...Bickerstaff sure is trying to bully his way into getting the 3rd pick now isn't he? I mean this is just ridiculous...how many times has Bernie mentioned acquiring POR #3 pick? or threatening (outright in one instance) to take POR player if they trade with another team behind them? I mean come on...defend that...please....


Defend that? Why would Bernie talk about acquiring the #3 pick when the concensus #3 is the flashy local PG and you need a PG and your marketing could use a face of the franchise type? Maybe because he is repeatedly being asked questions by the local press about said kid? Seems like the logical reason to me... you weren't under the impression he was just holding court and going on about whatever he felt like talking about were you? 



> POR didn't back them into a corner...Bickerstaff did that all by himself...Did you not catch his act at the draft lotto? He wants Paul, and he is hoping he can scare POR into a deal to his liking....but a guy trying this hard to MANUFACTURE a deal, usually ends up paying the fee in the end.....desperate GM's do desperate things...and Bernie is sure acting like a desperate man....


that would be nice if you were right... you sure can read people  

Things could definitely have worked out better at this years lotto for BB and the Bobcats... while I'm sure he was disappointed that he didn't move up into the top 3, it's not like his lot in life sucks. Dude is making millions of dollars a year assembling a pro-basketball team in NC. Seems like pretty much a dream situation to me. He picked a winner big guy last year, and this year he'll be able to fetch two more top prospects for his rotation. Life is not desperate for him, life is good, and time is on his side as he puts things together. 

He may want Bogut, MWilliams, and Paul more, but I'm sure he'd like DWilliams and Gerald Green too. He's in a very stable situation, no need to do anything rash... I've only guesses as to why you think he's backed into a corner.

STOMP


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Hap said:


> If teams want a player, and in the case of the bobcats NEED players (they have 4 under contract for next year) they need players.


They can retain Gerald Wallace for a little over 2M and make it 5... which seems like a pretty good deal for the team to me. 2 lotto selections make 7... then fill out the rest of the roster with FAs... easy.

They probably have little pressure to win now as long as they show improvement and promise... if I were a Bobcats fan (or BB), a potencial lineup of Jack, Green, Wallace, Okafor, and Primo would make me pretty excited.

STOMP


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## ebott (Jan 7, 2003)

Bickerstaff is a dick. He wants the #3 pick but he doesn't want to have to give up anything of value in order to get it. If he's not willing to trade us the 13th pick to get Chris Paul we'll happily trade it to Utah or Toronto.

I'm with Hap on the whole Monia being thrown in to get a hold of the 13th pick argument. Our biggest weakness this year was lack of outside shooting. Everyting I've ever heard or seen or heard that someone else had seen about Monia indicates that he's a good shooter. Unlike most good shooters he's also not completely useless on the defensive end. 

Is there really anybody at 13 that would be more valuable to us than Monia? A month ago when there looked to be gobs and gobs of decent big man prospects I would have said yes but a lot of guys have dropped out and some of what I considered to be the more intreguing guys that are still in have lost a lot of their luster.

On the other hand....



Ed O said:


> If we can get a better deal while hanging onto Monia: fantastic. Do it. But don't let a Sergei Monya, of all people, be the reason you don't make a deal.
> 
> Ed O.


I think Ed makes a really good point here. If the Blazers really do want to take Green, don't think he'll make it past Charlotte, and have a few players they really want at #13 it would be silly of them to turn down such a deal if Monya were the cost of doing business.

I just don't think that's the case. On the topic of losing one's luster my thoughts turn to Green. He used to be this shiny impressive ideal but now someone mentions him and I go "MEH." In my head I'm thinking John Nash would much rather trade the #3 to Toronto for #7 and #16 and if Green is still there at 7 that would be nice. But if he's not we'll just take Webster and a couple years from now we'll see what's what.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

What about the our #3 and #35 picks for Charlottes #5 and #13 picks....I wonder if they would bite the hook on that one, with a large number of good players projected to still be available in the early second round.....


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Ed O said:


> So are you saying that Monia was good enough to play last year, but didn't?
> 
> Or are you saying that he wasn't good enough to play because the team was better than it had been the year before?
> 
> ...



Wasn't there some sort of stipulations with Monia's buyouts that made it more suitable for the Blazers to wait another year for him to come over....With him being already drafted by the Blazers and all, maybe the head coach of CSKA who already has a reputation of resentment towards players who are NBA bound, didn't want to play him because of that....


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## Sambonius (May 21, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> Wasn't there some sort of stipulations with Monia's buyouts that made it more suitable for the Blazers to wait another year for him to come over....With him being already drafted by the Blazers and all, maybe the head coach of CSKA who already has a reputation of resentment towards players who are NBA bound, didn't want to play him because of that....


That's exactly what Nash said, I don't know why so many are ignoring that. It was obvious, that game in the finals, CSKA only started losing the game after Monia left the game.


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## Utherhimo (Feb 20, 2005)

yup i noticed that too! I want Monya to come over!


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> What about the our #3 and #35 picks for Charlottes #5 and #13 picks....I wonder if they would bite the hook on that one, with a large number of good players projected to still be available in the early second round.....


Do you honestly believe they'd consider that for a second? Why not ask them to throw in Emeka too?

STOMP


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

ebott said:


> Is there really anybody at 13 that would be more valuable to us than Monia? A month ago when there looked to be gobs and gobs of decent big man prospects I would have said yes but a lot of guys have dropped out and some of what I considered to be the more intreguing guys that are still in have lost a lot of their luster.


I said back when I proposed this that I'd never seen Monia play, and admitted to talking out my backside in my speculations... I think most of us are when we discuss him and many of the Internationals and HS guys... going on what some draft site says about a guy or a quote from a GM is just that IMO. I need to see a guy play a couple times before I have a real opinion on how good he can be... nonetheless, I like to speculate.

Nash has stated that he sees Monia and Outlaw primarily as SFs, which means Portland currently has 5 of them... and 3 is probably too many. I'd looooove to see them be able to make lateral moves in talent swaps for guys at other positions. So who to move? The most difficult, by far, would be Darius because of his new fat deal. Maybe, but pretty doubtful IMO. With his leaguewide pariah PR status, I don't think Patterson will fetch close to equal value, but at least he's coming off a good year and the length of his contract isn't so imposing. Lets say Rube gets his wished for ticket out of town. IMO that still means one of the other three probably needs to go to create space/reasonable roles for those that remain. Which one? Khryapa is probably the most valuble to the team in the short term as he's able to swing to the 4 against some lineups, while Monia and Outlaw are about the same size. With their smallish contracts, all three would be relatively easy to move for talent in trades.

So to weigh in on your question _Is there really anybody at 13 that would be more valuble to Portland then a 4th or 5th SF who was drafted 23rd last year_... probably, as what sort of value does a player have to a team when there are no minutes available? I'd expect Nash has a pretty good idea how he feels about all three, whose talent and personality projects the best... as opposed to us, he's seen Monia play quiet a bit. I'm sure he's aware of the team's needs at other roster spots too. I have to imagine that he's mulling the SF logjam over and hoping to do a thing or two about it this offseason.

STOMP


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

> Maybe because he is repeatedly being asked questions by the local press about said kid? Seems like the logical reason to me... you weren't under the impression he was just holding court and going on about whatever he felt like talking about were you?


So threatening to take a player whom HE thinks POR likes if they trade with a team below him...is for what reason? Just random musings? Just holding court? Yeah.....ok 



> you sure can read people


Yeah...that is exactly what I am saying here...and don't you forget it.... 

We can only go by what Bernis says...and the level of talk by him about the #3...and the veiled threats he is throwing towards POR, certainy don't look to me like they are from a guy who could give or take drafting Paul.....

Usually if a team wanted to trade up they wouldn't be repeatedly shouting through the press what deals they will and will not take for that pick....

Has Nash repeatedly speculated through the media on what CHA specifically has to do
to get the #3 pick? I sure haven't heard it....



> He may want Bogut, MWilliams, and Paul more, but I'm sure he'd like DWilliams and Gerald Green too. He's in a very stable situation, no need to do anything rash... I've only guesses as to why you think he's backed into a corner.


Hey I agree, there is no reason for him to act rash...and yet his comments speak otherwise....I don't hear UTA or TOR GM's repeatedly commenting thru the press what they will\will not deal for the #3 pick or overtly threatening to take a player if POR dares not to trade with them... 

Do you?

Seems to me Bernie's is BY FAR the GM doing the most and LOUDEST talking right now.....how foolish of me to equate that to his level of interest.....

I guess he isn't really interested in POR pick after all...he just likes to talk about it.


At this point I don't really care if CHA trades with POR or not....screw Bickerstaff...POR should draft Paul and trade him to the team with the best offer...be that TOR, UTA or another team....if Bickerstaff picks Green so be it, POR will take Webster, I am not convinced, nor do I think Nash is, that Green is any better than Webster, like many people here do.....

If CHA wants the #3 pick, then they have to trade the #5 & #13.....I would hope Nash would be willing to conceed the 35th pick and\or maybe even a player like Sinanovic, Ruben, DA (good luck) if necessary

But I certainly wouldn't just "throw in" Monia for the 13th pick....or deal Miles w\o getting another player (Ely, Hart) back in return as well.


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