# Bargnani - Monster game in Italian League



## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

Just finished - game 2 of Italian League finals - Benneton wins 88-82, up 2-0 in the series (best of 5)

Mr Bargnani:
32 Minutes
17 points ( tied for team lead)
7 rebounds( lead team)
6 blocks (6 freakin blocks!!) 
3 steals

Box score ( I think I have interpreted it properly)

http://195.56.77.208/game/?id=62607

* note that for blocks "Stoppate" they keep track of for and against. 

Pretty impressive - espicially remembering the measurements he's rumored to have.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Turning it on when it matters most.


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## frank_white (Apr 20, 2005)

AB will be the best player out of this draft 4 years from now.


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

frank_white said:


> AB will be the best player out of this draft 4 years from now.


bold.

a point of note is the lack of stat padding in the european leagues.

assists here aren't assists there, but Finkle is still Einhorn no matter which way you look at it.
:raised_ey


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

Benis007 said:


> bold.
> 
> a point of note is the lack of stat padding in the european leagues.
> 
> ...


Plus:

2 assists
5 fouls drawn
32 efficiency rating


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

If BC was campaigning to soften it to the fans then job well done. I'm ready to hear AB go at #1 if need be.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Nice stat line!

He is making it hard not to pick him #1 overall.


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## Flush (Jul 25, 2005)

If any of the top prospects put up these kind of numbers on route to an NCAA championship the would be considered the consensus #1 overall.

This is becoming an easier and easier decision IMO


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## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

Flush said:


> If any of the top prospects put up these kind of numbers on route to an NCAA championship the would be considered the consensus #1 overall.


Bingo
Joakim Noah put up 16/9 rebs, 6 blocks and 1 steal in the final game, I would imagine he would have been consensus #1 if he came out.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

and Euroleague is considered better overall competition than the NCAA


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## Ballyhoo (May 30, 2003)

I don't know if Bargnani will be a star in the NBA, but I think he's the least likely to be a bust of the top 5.


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## ATCQ (Jun 16, 2005)

17 points and 7 boards is a _monster_ game?


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

CrookedJ said:


> Bingo
> Joakim Noah put up 16/9 rebs, 6 blocks and 1 steal in the final game, I would imagine he would have been consensus #1 if he came out.


Bargs is doing it against men. Noah did it against Ryan Hollins. But a lot of people will always talk down about Euros.


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## icehawk (May 30, 2003)

ATCQ said:


> 17 points and 7 boards is a _monster_ game?


In the Euro league when you're only 20 years old, yes.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

ATCQ said:


> 17 points and 7 boards is a _monster_ game?


Put Andrea in front of some 20y _Travis MCpippen_ of the NCAA and he'll post 28/15 ...


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

italianBBlover said:


> Put Andrea in front of some 20y _Travis MCpippen_ of the NCAA and he'll post 28/15 ...


Post of the week.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

italianBBlover said:


> Put Andrea in front of some 20y _Travis MCpippen_ of the NCAA and he'll post 28/15 ...


right on, i said that weeks ago, funny how he has a good game and everyone is ready to jump on the bandwagon then if he has an off game you hear the naysayers. to me he's clearly #1 and they better either take him there in toronto or get equal value for him, and i dont think #4 and jarrett jack is equal value.


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

italianBBlover said:


> Put Andrea in front of some 20y _Travis MCpippen_ of the NCAA and he'll post 28/15 ...


i was wondering where u were at, wht is ur take on Mr. Bargnani? Try to be as unbiased as you can please....how do u think his game will translate to that of the NBA?


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

speedythief said:


> Post of the week.


 :biggrin: 

Seriously @ Adhi8r1: I'm not Nostradamus, so I can't know if Andrea will traslate well or bad to NBA.

But I say: what about Aldrige ? Gay ? Morrison ? 

Now look this: Morrison, Aldrige etc played 35 games Vs kids of their ages, while Andrea banged his *** for 70 games (italian league + euroleague) against 25/30/35 years old american and european veteran pros.
And if you think that here played dudes like Darryl Dawkins, Dominique Wilkins, Bob McAdoo, Vinny Del ***** and George Gervin ...

Then now he's playing like a veteran star in venues which would make an NCAA arena looks like a kindergarten ... and with thousand of eyes on him of fans, media, NBA scouts etc

You have seen the pictures of him with those monster legs, the videos in which he shows how a 7-1 can play almost like a guard, the comments of many scouts and observers ...

Said all 

good night (here's 3:38am !!!!)


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

pmac34 said:


> and Euroleague is considered better overall competition than the NCAA


:raised_ey

now you're on the bargnani badnwagon after all the crap you spewed out about how wrong it is picking a euro?


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## MonkeyBallZJr (May 7, 2004)

trick said:


> :raised_ey
> 
> now you're on the bargnani badnwagon after all the crap you spewed out about how wrong it is picking a euro?


Basically everyone on the Raptors board has jumped on the Bargani bandwagon, after his alleged height and weight were revealed. Still 90 percent of the people have yet to see him play, yet they claim to.


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## aizn (Jun 19, 2005)

rainman said:


> right on, i said that weeks ago, funny how he has a good game and everyone is ready to jump on the bandwagon then if he has an off game you hear the naysayers. to me he's clearly #1 and they better either take him there in toronto or get equal value for him, and i dont think #4 and jarrett jack is equal value.


the consensus would be us drafting morrison for them, and they would draft bargnani for us, and we'd get jarret jack as well. it all comes down to wat chicago or charlotte might do, because chicago could flat out screw us over..i highly doubt they'd pass on aldridge and take bargnani instead..charlotte on the other hand needs a scorer, so they may be looking at a brandon roy or a rudy gay..i don't kno if i'd risk it on draft night though. bargnani was supposed to be "our" number 1 pick, now he's showcasing why he should be everyone else's number 1 pick as well


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

MonkeyBallZJr said:


> Basically everyone on the Raptors board has jumped on the Bargani bandwagon, after his alleged height and weight were revealed. Still 90 percent of the people have yet to see him play, yet they claim to.


i've actually seen more highlights of this guy(bargnani) than i have of anyone else in the draft except morrison, who i got to see all of his games except maybe 3. i dont know if any guy has been scrutinized more than this kid and i guess that its because he's a foreigner.


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## Flush (Jul 25, 2005)

MonkeyBallZJr said:


> Basically everyone on the Raptors board has jumped on the Bargani bandwagon, after his alleged height and weight were revealed. Still 90 percent of the people have yet to see him play, yet they claim to.



I'm going to defend my position because I'm in the group of people you mention. I have seen him play, minimally. But no less than any of the other top prospects. I enjoy waching European basketball on RapsTV. I like the game.

As for the 'alleged' measurements, I have no reason to doubt their validity. They came from the very man the Raptors have reportedly hired as their assistant GM. If they are bogus he will let BC know....but I highly doubt it based on what I have seen of him.

Now people are saying 'who cares about the measurements?' and I understood that intitially but now I'm changing my tune. The Numbers ARE a BIG deal. Most people thought AB was likely 6'10 220lbs. A chris bosh type frame. His mobility at that size is impressive, but not freakish by NBA standards. It also meant he would struggle against bigger bodies, and likely wouldn't be a post presence. 

Now it has come out that he is a legit 7' tall and 250 lbs (and I beleive it when you look at the width of his legs and arms compared to early photos) That means he is equal in size to Andrew Bogut. So this propels him into a freakish status at any level. He has the legitimate size of an NBA centre and the mobility of a small forward. He can shoot the lights out and could potentially bang in the post. 

I understand that his post game is nowhere near what it needs to be for an NBA centre. But he has the legitimate size and athletic ability to succeed in that regard. If the reports are true, he just lacks experience. He has never been coached in the post before this season and has already shown tremendous improvment

So to those of you that think the numbers aren't a big deal. The kid you've been watching in those clips isn't Bosh's size he's Bogut's. And that is a big deal as far as I'm concerned


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

The measurements don't tell me that he can play the traditional low post centre position on offense, like some people are leading to when talking about low post game. What they tell me is that he's not going to get bullied by most centres in the league. So when someone plays a traditional centre on him, Bargnani is going to be able to embarass him offensively with his outside shot or quickness if he gets played tight. Then on defense, Bargnani has the size not to get pushed around. The net effect would be in our favour.

And besides, there are only 2 or 3 brute centres who have any offensive game in the league and one is 34 and another one is a heart attack waiting to happen.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i certainly can't ignore games like this. considering everything/everyone involved, this type of performance cannot go unnoticed. he's in the finals, against men, his present day has never been more important, his immediate future is 'threatening' him in the crowd, the western world is taking it all in under a microscope, etc., yet he retains enough focus (presumably) to play well and... play really well.

don't know enough about andrea of course, since i don't watch the euroleagues, but if we're going to make any assumptions here, i'd suggest this one to be pretty safe: players who achieve such results in important euroleague playoff games are highly unlikely to become the next skita.

so that concern should be thrown in the trash immediately- provided it hasn't already been. andrea may not work as an nba pro, who knows, but tskitishvili is not a comparable. that fear cannot be justified anymore- it's time to move on.

peace


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## BaLL_HoG (Jun 17, 2006)

Treviso and Bologna would destroy any NCAA team in a 5 or 7 game series. If AB was playing college ball on a team where he was the go-to guy, in a conference like the one where Morrison plays, his stats would be mind boggling.

a 20 year old who leads his team in points, rebounds and blocks in a finals game ,going against grown men is definitely impressive. :clap:


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

rainman said:


> i've actually seen more highlights of this guy(bargnani) than i have of anyone else in the draft except morrison, who i got to see all of his games except maybe 3. i dont know if any guy has been scrutinized more than this kid and i guess that its because he's a foreigner.


Aldridge = Jermaine O'Neal
Morrison = Glenn Robinson w/ heart
Tyrus = Marion
Gay = Pippen
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Bargnani = Skita


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## BaLL_HoG (Jun 17, 2006)

trick said:


> Aldridge = Jermaine O'Neal
> Morrison = Glenn Robinson w/ heart
> Tyrus = Marion
> Gay = Pippen
> ...



The best comparison of Bargnani ive heard is a Young Tony Kukoc (only right handed)


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

BaLL_HoG said:


> The best comparison of Bargnani ive heard is a Young Tony Kukoc (only right handed)


dont like that comparison at all(no offense) kucoc at the same age was a ballhandler who could find people, bargnani seems the type who is going to shoot first and ask questions later, in all the clips i have seen of him i havent seen him give it up yet. i would compare him at 20 to dirk,gasol, and maybe a detlef shrempf.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

BaLL_HoG said:


> The best comparison of Bargnani ive heard is a Young Tony Kukoc (only right handed)


I like Sabonis in his CCCP years, but quicker and better ball handling. Sabonis was not so big in those days and in the clips I've seen, he was absolutely amazing.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

Team Mao said:


> I like Sabonis in his CCCP years, but quicker and better ball handling. Sabonis was not so big in those days and in the clips I've seen, he was absolutely amazing.


sabonis was still 7-2 or more but you're right he was much more trim. i saw sabonis in the 88 olympics and conventional wisdom was he was the best center in the world and that includes the admiral, hakeem and ewing. bargnani sort of looks a little similar in the way he can take it to the hole and block shots but i dont think they are that similar, sabonis had all his best years before he came over to the nba, differant type players i think.


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

rainman said:


> sabonis was still 7-2 or more but you're right he was much more trim. i saw sabonis in the 88 olympics and conventional wisdom was he was the best center in the world and that includes the admiral, hakeem and ewing. bargnani sort of looks a little similar in the way he can take it to the hole and block shots but i dont think they are that similar, sabonis had all his best years before he came over to the nba, differant type players i think.


In terms of outside shot, taking it to the hole, and the way they block they are very similar. Like you said, Sabonis was taller, but other than the inch or two, their bodies are similar (or when Sabas was in CCCP, they were similar).
My buddy's Dad, and our basketball coach in youth leagues growing up, would also gush about Sabonis. Saw a few games on VHS back in the day, I think the two are pretty close. But it's really hard to pin down Bargnani at this stage, maybe I should give it a year in the league then we'll see who he plays like.


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## BaLL_HoG (Jun 17, 2006)

rainman said:


> dont like that comparison at all(no offense) kucoc at the same age was a ballhandler who could find people, bargnani seems the type who is going to shoot first and ask questions later, in all the clips i have seen of him i havent seen him give it up yet. i would compare him at 20 to dirk,gasol, and maybe a detlef shrempf.


True his passing isnt up to par with that of Kukoc's , I guess I just cant get past how similar there first step looks to me, thats why I liked the comparison.

Bargnani to me also looks like he is willing to go inside and block shots and bang (somewhat) more then Tony or even Dirk.


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## frank_white (Apr 20, 2005)

From what I've seem, Bargnarni's game has more in common with KG than Sabonis, if you ask me (although you guys are right about the similar builds). 

btw How come we can only compare Bargnarni to Euro players, and how come we can only compare a shooter like Ammo to North American players? I find both the Dirk and Skita comparisons extreme and reductive.


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## BaLL_HoG (Jun 17, 2006)

frank_white said:


> From what I've seem, Bargnarni's game has more in common with KG than Sabonis, if you ask me (although you guys are right about the similar builds).
> 
> btw How come we can only compare Bargnarni to Euro players, and how come we can only compare a shooter like Ammo to North American players? I find both the Dirk and Skita comparisons extreme and reductive.



Well Morrison has frequently been compared to a shorter Dirk (see Draftexpress for this one).


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## madman (Oct 20, 2003)

i like the fact that he had 6 blocks, that is really important not the points IMO, if he can get 1 or 2 a game in his first season then that would be a huge lift for us, and allow others like bosh and Charlie to cheat more on help D which would improve our D alot.

Also should we take him or Aldridge someone has to go dont they?
Bosh 
Villeneuva
AB/LeMarcus
Bonner
Humphries
Woods
Whaley (might be waived)
Sow

thats 7 players (assuming Whaley gets waived) competing for around 4 spots, someone is gonna have to go, IMO Woods needs to go with Wahley


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## clutchmoney (Feb 14, 2006)

ballocks said:


> don't know enough about andrea of course, since i don't watch the euroleagues, but if we're going to make any assumptions here, i'd suggest this one to be pretty safe: players who achieve such results in important euroleague playoff games are highly unlikely to become the next skita.
> 
> so that concern should be thrown in the trash immediately- provided it hasn't already been. andrea may not work as an nba pro, who knows, but tskitishvili is not a comparable. that fear cannot be justified anymore- it's time to move on.


great post. Skitza did not even get playing time(in europe), he was taken purely due to the fact that he could shoot during practice and had good size...also the whole euro craze wuz goin on at that time…seems like its cooled off...Bargnani is producing at the second highest level in pressure situations...plus he's friggin 20 …this guy is no way going to be a bust...he may not turn out to be an allstar...but he's definitely going to be able to produce as an NBA starter…

with that said I still think that Rudy Gay has the highest ceiling in this draft…he is built like a freak of nature…the only thing that seems to be holding this kid back is effort…

the thing is I think Charlie V. and Bargnani are very similar…having Bargnani doesn’t seem to be the best fit…then again we could trade one of them as they prove they belong in the NBA…nothing wrong with having assets at your disposal.


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## Divine Spammer (Jul 11, 2005)

The spanish finals have also begun. 
Tau lost 67-81 to Malaga. 
Roko led the team with 18 pts. 
I've seen no referrence to that. 

Anyways, here's the box score


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## Zalgirinis (Feb 18, 2003)

Team Mao said:


> I like Sabonis in his CCCP years, but quicker and better ball handling. Sabonis was not so big in those days and in the clips I've seen, he was absolutely amazing.


I saw some Sabonis pre-injuries games on tapes. What Bargnani is doing is great, but Sabonis was dominating outwhere. Going for 30 points and 15 rebs a game, even 50 points games. They are really not comparable, Sabonis was a true center with great post game, hooks etc. On the same time Sabonis could shoot as hell and his passing was already great (you saw that in the NBA). In defense he was like Mutombo in his prime blocking and intimidating everything. The only thing they have alike is their quickness, but definately Bargnani plays the other role.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Zalgirinis said:


> I saw some Sabonis pre-injuries games on tapes. What Bargnani is doing is great, but Sabonis was dominating outwhere. Going for 30 points and 15 rebs a game, even 50 points games. They are really not comparable, Sabonis was a true center with great post game, hooks etc. On the same time Sabonis could shoot as hell and his passing was already great (you saw that in the NBA). In defense he was like Mutombo in his prime blocking and intimidating everything. The only thing they have alike is their quickness, but definately Bargnani plays the other role.



Agree

And hey ... in that photo Sabonis is playing against Milan ... look D'Antoni and Dino Meneghin on the right :biggrin:


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## aizn (Jun 19, 2005)

madman said:


> i like the fact that he had 6 blocks, that is really important not the points IMO, if he can get 1 or 2 a game in his first season then that would be a huge lift for us, and allow others like bosh and Charlie to cheat more on help D which would improve our D alot.
> 
> Also should we take him or Aldridge someone has to go dont they?
> Bosh
> ...


woods and whaley aren't signed next year..and i dont think sow is either.


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## aizn (Jun 19, 2005)

Divine Spammer said:


> The spanish finals have also begun.
> Tau lost 67-81 to Malaga.
> Roko led the team with 18 pts.
> I've seen no referrence to that.
> ...


that's really good to see, except the 1 assist he had. at least he's playing with some former NBA players, ie casey jacobsen, luis scola. so he should get a feel for how their style of play is.

i also saw garbajosa on that boxscore, 13 points 8 rebounds, not a bad showing, although he did shoot 2/7 from 2 and 3/6 from 3. sounds like another bonner with more rebounding ability.


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## Divine Spammer (Jul 11, 2005)

aizn said:


> that's really good to see, except the 1 assist he had. at least he's playing with some former NBA players, ie casey jacobsen, luis scola. so he should get a feel for how their style of play is.
> 
> i also saw garbajosa on that boxscore, 13 points 8 rebounds, not a bad showing, although he did shoot 2/7 from 2 and 3/6 from 3. sounds like another bonner with more rebounding ability.


Yeah, I didn't like his number of assists either. 
However, as you know it's tougher to get an assist in euro play, and obviously the scores are much lower. 
Anyways, Roko might surprise us. He makes an impression of a shoot first player with bad playmaking skills, but a euro poster here who saw Calderon plays in Tau said he was surprised to see Jose's high number of assist and pass first attitude. 
He claimed that in Spain Jose had shoot-first attitude. 
So maybe Roko can do that switch too. 

Garbajosa... he isn't inked yet. 
And I was very doubtful about this deal from the first place. 
We will have to wait and see.


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## cv3bandwagon (Mar 16, 2006)

I think the European game and Tau's sytem is too restrictuve for Roko. He needs more freedom in the offesne to use his creativity to create for tothers.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

Zalgirinis said:


> I saw some Sabonis pre-injuries games on tapes. What Bargnani is doing is great, but Sabonis was dominating outwhere. Going for 30 points and 15 rebs a game, even 50 points games. They are really not comparable, Sabonis was a true center with great post game, hooks etc. On the same time Sabonis could shoot as hell and his passing was already great (you saw that in the NBA). In defense he was like Mutombo in his prime blocking and intimidating everything. The only thing they have alike is their quickness, but definately Bargnani plays the other role.


totally differant players. we're searching for a good bargnani comparison.....still searching.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

rainman said:


> totally differant players. we're searching for a good bargnani comparison.....still searching.


Cliff Robinson, Robert Horry....when they were in thier prime.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

billfindlay10 said:


> Cliff Robinson, Robert Horry....when they were in thier prime.


not bad, i'm still thinking more pau gasol with range.


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## clutchmoney (Feb 14, 2006)

Zalgirinis said:


> I saw some Sabonis pre-injuries games on tapes. What Bargnani is doing is great, but Sabonis was dominating outwhere. Going for 30 points and 15 rebs a game, even 50 points games. They are really not comparable, Sabonis was a true center with great post game, hooks etc. On the same time Sabonis could shoot as hell and his passing was already great (you saw that in the NBA). In defense he was like Mutombo in his prime blocking and intimidating everything. The only thing they have alike is their quickness, but definately Bargnani plays the other role.



you are not considering the fact that european players have improved over the years...Sabonis was doing this against scrubs...


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## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

This is wat they said about Darko, Baragani is the next Darko and quote me on this, write it down, cause its gonna be true.


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## Flush (Jul 25, 2005)

Pain5155 said:


> This is wat they said about Darko, Baragani is the next Darko and quote me on this, write it down, cause its gonna be true.


How did darko do in Euro league competition? do some research then come talk


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## Team Mao (Dec 17, 2005)

Pain5155 said:


> This is wat they said about Darko, Baragani is the next Darko and quote me on this, write it down, cause its gonna be true.


Wow, another stellar, uninformed post. Darko just turned 18 when he was drafted and never played big minutes at a high level in Europe. And he definitely has never put up such great performances in important games like Bargnani has.
The similarity is that they are white, 7 feet and European. So it's like me saying that you are exactly like all other 5'10" skinny white guys from Toronto.


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## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

all im saying is dont get too excited aboud, raptors will not draft him, quote me on this, write it down, Bargani wont be #1.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

CrookedJ said:


> Bingo
> Joakim Noah put up 16/9 rebs, 6 blocks and 1 steal in the final game, I would imagine he would have been consensus #1 if he came out.


A certain SU player, went the following in the final four as a freshmen.

27 PTs 
11 Reb
5 Ast

Yet a Dork went in front of him.


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## BaLL_HoG (Jun 17, 2006)

Pain5155 said:


> all im saying is dont get too excited aboud, raptors will not draft him, quote me on this, write it down, Bargani wont be #1.


First of all seeing you cant even spell the guys name right, so I wouldnt put too much weight into what you think.

Colangelo will select Bargnani, you can quote me and write it down


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