# Is Kenyon Martin worth that much?



## RoddneyThaRippa

What is Kiki thinking? *Three * future *first-round* picks and 90 million dollars? Honestly...


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## Real McCoy

You guys are almost assuredly going to regret this deal. As much as people say he is so much better than Nene (I don't see it, Nene acquitted himself very nicely against KG in his 2nd year mind you), Kenyon Martin is being paid like a superstar. 


So when the Nuggets still don't even get out of the first round (because they still can't throw a rock in the ocean from the perimeter), how does is this signing justified? 

Sacramento, Minnesota, San Antonio and Dallas are all still better and now Utah is right in the mix there. So who will be the scapegoat if Denver loses in the first round again, Bzdelik? 

See Kiki wanted something to show finally for all the cap room he had, but Kenyon Martin being paid like he is even as good as Chris Webber is a joke. 

I say bad deal for the Nuggs, because if Martin doesn't become a better player (it's arguable if he will) in the West, they just signed a guy who plateued for 90 million dollars and as a run-n-jump athlete, will soon lose his athleticism and they will be left with nothing, but an overpaid undersized PF.


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## RoddneyThaRippa

> Originally posted by <b>Real McCoy</b>!
> You guys are almost assuredly going to regret this deal. As much as people say he is so much better than Nene (I don't see it, Nene acquitted himself very nicely against KG in his 2nd year mind you), Kenyon Martin is being paid like a superstar.
> 
> 
> So when the Nuggets still don't even get out of the first round (because they still can't throw a rock in the ocean from the perimeter), how does is this signing justified?
> 
> Sacramento, Minnesota, San Antonio and Dallas are all still better and now Utah is right in the mix there. So who will be the scapegoat if Denver loses in the first round again, Bzdelik?
> 
> See Kiki wanted something to show finally for all the cap room he had, but Kenyon Martin being paid like he is even as good as Chris Webber is a joke.
> 
> I say bad deal for the Nuggs, because if Martin doesn't become a better player (it's arguable if he will) in the West, they just signed a guy who plateued for 90 million dollars and as a run-n-jump athlete, will soon lose his athleticism and they will be left with nothing, but an overpaid undersized PF.


I agree, and I honestly think Kiki made a rash decision. It seems like he didn't want to leave this offseason empty-handed. Well, he's not, at the tune of 90 million and three first round draft picks. All for a player with a questionable attitude and no consistent inside scoring prowess. 

I like Kenyon Martin as a player. He plays great defense and can hit the boards real nice. He brings some great energy, too. But he is not worth three first rounders and 90 million. 

On top of that, the Nuggets better hope Skita doesn't blow up. If he does, they've just thrown away a helluva lot for Kenyon.


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## MJG

Count me in with those not for this deal from Denver's side. Frankly, I think just the contract he's getting is well above his worth. Prior to this summer, I thought the Nets' rumored offer to Kenyon of 6 years, $66 million was just about perfect. Of course, with what other players are getting, that wasn't going to fly.

Giving up three first rounders (regardless of where they fall) is too much when dumped on top of $90 million. We're talking $13 million a year for 17/10/3/1.5/1.5 at best. That's obviously a good player, but that's also at best a second or even third option. This just reminds me too much of the days of a Keith Van Horn or a Jalen Rose getting a max deal.

I'm on board with people who think this is a bit of a panic move. It's not that Martin won't help the team, because he certainly will. Now if Kiki believes this team is on the verge of competing for the title and they needed that extra boost to get over the hill, then this would be a solid move. However, when Denver is closer to "probable playoff team" than "probable title contender," it isn't as good.


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## RoddneyThaRippa

> Originally posted by <b>MJG</b>!
> Count me in with those not for this deal from Denver's side. Frankly, I think just the contract he's getting is well above his worth. Prior to this summer, I thought the Nets' rumored offer to Kenyon of 6 years, $66 million was just about perfect. Of course, with what other players are getting, that wasn't going to fly.
> 
> Giving up three first rounders (regardless of where they fall) is too much when dumped on top of $90 million. We're talking $13 million a year for 17/10/3/1.5/1.5 at best. That's obviously a good player, but that's also at best a second or even third option. This just reminds me too much of the days of a Keith Van Horn or a Jalen Rose getting a max deal.
> 
> I'm on board with people who think this is a bit of a panic move. It's not that Martin won't help the team, because he certainly will. Now if Kiki believes this team is on the verge of competing for the title and they needed that extra boost to get over the hill, then this would be a solid move. However, when Denver is closer to "probable playoff team" than "probable title contender," it isn't as good.


And I still have no idea what the Nuggets are going to do about perimeter scoring. Voshon Lenard, for his surprising stats, was a disaster at times last year (those who watch a majority of the games know what I'm talking about). This just seems like a desperate move and I guarantee you at least one of those picks well end up being top ten, if not top seven.


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## jericho

I posted the following on the "Free Agents, Trades & Rumors" board earlier...


I'm struggling to like this trade for the Nuggets. I disagree with those who say Martin is a high-level impact star as well as with those who deride him. He's a very good player, who will probably improve at least a bit for the next couple of years. 

I doubt he'll ever be a year-in, year-out, 20-10 guy that you build your franchise around. The analyses I've seen of his statistics against specific teams suggest (consistent with the times I've watched him play) that he's a second tier power forward who gets dominated by the top 5-6 guys at his position but who blows everyone else away. 

If the pieces on the team can mesh, he'll certainly do his part to help the Nuggets improve by a few wins and by a clear measure of toughness. I really like the idea of a rotation in the paint of Martin, Nene and Camby, so it would have to be a deal that really favors Denver for me to want to see them ship Nene out for a shooting guard, although they badly need one. I love Camby's knees but don't have a shred of confidence that he's going to play 70+ games a season from here on out. 

In objective terms, I would say Martin is not worth this staggeringly big contract. Frankly, no professional athlete is in my opinion, but even thinking within the sport's current financial framework I don't think he's a "max" player at this point. Having said that, I can appreciate some team being willing to give him the max if: 1) that's what it takes to get him, 2) he's the missing piece that pushes them into perennial contending status, and 3) the price tag doesn't constrain the franchise's ability to add a few more smaller pieces around him from time to time to keep the team fresh and responsive to what competitors are doing. 

Clearly, criterion #1 is true in this case. Someone was going to empty their pockets for Kenyon, and Denver evidently did so first. I don't think #2 is true, though; much as I love a core rotation of Camby, Martin, Nene, Anthony, Miller, Boykins, and whoever the shooting guards du jour are, this doesn't yet have the makings of a squad that's going to pose a legitimate challenge for the title. This will be a team that can beat anyone but lose to anyone, on pretty much any night. The only way that analysis is wrong is if Anthony evolves into a consistent Top 10 player, and I honestly don't know how to gauge the chances of that. Maybe it'll happen (I hope so!), but very possibly not. But I don't think Martin is the guy who, in a Jordanesque or even Barkleyesque way, can almost single-handedly carry a team on his back through a difficult stretch of the playoffs, and if Anthony doesn't turn out to be that guy, then this team is stranded each year in the first or second round. Which means that they will need the financial flexibility to continue pursuing other pieces, espcially a top drawer shooting guard, and I'm not sure this deal leaves them with that flexibility.

So, if this deal is for real and Kenyon becomes Mile High Martin, I'll be very happy for Denver and will do my part to be an excited Nuggets fan, because he clearly will make them a better team. But not better enough. This may consistitute, by necessity, the last stroke of Kiki's master plan, and I fear it will come up short.


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## RoddneyThaRippa

> Originally posted by <b>jericho</b>!
> I posted the following on the "Free Agents, Trades & Rumors" board earlier...
> 
> 
> I'm struggling to like this trade for the Nuggets. I disagree with those who say Martin is a high-level impact star as well as with those who deride him. He's a very good player, who will probably improve at least a bit for the next couple of years.
> 
> I doubt he'll ever be a year-in, year-out, 20-10 guy that you build your franchise around. The analyses I've seen of his statistics against specific teams suggest (consistent with the times I've watched him play) that he's a second tier power forward who gets dominated by the top 5-6 guys at his position but who blows everyone else away.
> 
> If the pieces on the team can mesh, he'll certainly do his part to help the Nuggets improve by a few wins and by a clear measure of toughness. I really like the idea of a rotation in the paint of Martin, Nene and Camby, so it would have to be a deal that really favors Denver for me to want to see them ship Nene out for a shooting guard, although they badly need one. I love Camby's knees but don't have a shred of confidence that he's going to play 70+ games a season from here on out.
> 
> In objective terms, I would say Martin is not worth this staggeringly big contract. Frankly, no professional athlete is in my opinion, but even thinking within the sport's current financial framework I don't think he's a "max" player at this point. Having said that, I can appreciate some team being willing to give him the max if: 1) that's what it takes to get him, 2) he's the missing piece that pushes them into perennial contending status, and 3) the price tag doesn't constrain the franchise's ability to add a few more smaller pieces around him from time to time to keep the team fresh and responsive to what competitors are doing.
> 
> Clearly, criterion #1 is true in this case. Someone was going to empty their pockets for Kenyon, and Denver evidently did so first. I don't think #2 is true, though; much as I love a core rotation of Camby, Martin, Nene, Anthony, Miller, Boykins, and whoever the shooting guards du jour are, this doesn't yet have the makings of a squad that's going to pose a legitimate challenge for the title. This will be a team that can beat anyone but lose to anyone, on pretty much any night. The only way that analysis is wrong is if Anthony evolves into a consistent Top 10 player, and I honestly don't know how to gauge the chances of that. Maybe it'll happen (I hope so!), but very possibly not. But I don't think Martin is the guy who, in a Jordanesque or even Barkleyesque way, can almost single-handedly carry a team on his back through a difficult stretch of the playoffs, and if Anthony doesn't turn out to be that guy, then this team is stranded each year in the first or second round. Which means that they will need the financial flexibility to continue pursuing other pieces, espcially a top drawer shooting guard, and I'm not sure this deal leaves them with that flexibility.
> 
> So, if this deal is for real and Kenyon becomes Mile High Martin, I'll be very happy for Denver and will do my part to be an excited Nuggets fan, because he clearly will make them a better team. But not better enough. This may consistitute, by necessity, the last stroke of Kiki's master plan, and I fear it will come up short.


Good post. 

And what I still don't get is how this addresses the Nuggets' need for a low post scoring threat. Sure, we can dump the ball down low to Kenyon here and there but he is just not a consistent low post threat. 

If the Nuggets wanted a high energy guy with defense and rebounding ability, they should've thrown five a year at Stromile. That we, at least they would be saving some money and getting a player with as much potential as Kenyon. Is he proven yet? No, but it wouldn't cost three first rounders and 90 million to get him. I'll take my chances with that tradeoff.


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## jericho

> Originally posted by <b>RoddneyThaRippa</b>!
> 
> 
> Good post.
> 
> And what I still don't get is how this addresses the Nuggets' need for a low post scoring threat. Sure, we can dump the ball down low to Kenyon here and there but he is just not a consistent low post threat.
> 
> If the Nuggets wanted a high energy guy with defense and rebounding ability, they should've thrown five a year at Stromile. That we, at least they would be saving some money and getting a player with as much potential as Kenyon. Is he proven yet? No, but it wouldn't cost three first rounders and 90 million to get him. I'll take my chances with that tradeoff.


Dude, I agree with you. I'd be happy to eat my words on this, but at this point I'd rather take a chance that Stromile develops with increased PT and responsibility, while retaining the ability to upgrade at the 2 position either through free agency or the draft. Their future hope at shooting guard may end up being a combination of moderately priced role players--a Bruce Bowen shut-down defender with limited offensive skills in the starting lineup, and a deadeye shooter who offers little else coming off the bench. But someone like Quentin Richardson would've looked nice in a Nuggets uniform for the right price.


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## RoddneyThaRippa

> Originally posted by <b>jericho</b>!
> 
> 
> Dude, I agree with you. I'd be happy to eat my words on this, but at this point I'd rather take a chance that Stromile develops with increased PT and responsibility, while retaining the ability to upgrade at the 2 position either through free agency or the draft. Their future hope at shooting guard may end up being a combination of moderately priced role players--a Bruce Bowen shut-down defender with limited offensive skills in the starting lineup, and a deadeye shooter who offers little else coming off the bench. But someone like Quentin Richardson would've looked nice in a Nuggets uniform for the right price.


And at this point, with the money we're committing to Kenyon, our best chance at getting a shooting guard is through the draft. Good thing we have six first rounders in the next three years....

Wait, we don't. We only have three. Way to paint yourself into a corner, Kiki.


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## Real McCoy

IMO, this is a deal that didn't have to be done on the Nuggets end. They should have just waited it out, till Ray Allen was an unrestricted FA next year.


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## RoddneyThaRippa

> Originally posted by <b>Real McCoy</b>!
> IMO, this is a deal that didn't have to be done on the Nuggets end. They should have just waited it out, till Ray Allen was an unrestricted FA next year.


Yep. We certainly didn't have to use that space up this year. If Kiki wanted Kenyon that bad, he just should've thrown all the money he could at him and hoped the Nets didn't match. But leave the three picks alone.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>Real McCoy</b>!
> You guys are almost assuredly going to regret this deal. As much as people say he is so much better than Nene (I don't see it, Nene acquitted himself very nicely against KG in his 2nd year mind you), Kenyon Martin is being paid like a superstar.
> 
> 
> So when the Nuggets still don't even get out of the first round (because they still can't throw a rock in the ocean from the perimeter), how does is this signing justified?
> 
> Sacramento, Minnesota, San Antonio and Dallas are all still better and now Utah is right in the mix there. So who will be the scapegoat if Denver loses in the first round again, Bzdelik?
> 
> See Kiki wanted something to show finally for all the cap room he had, but Kenyon Martin being paid like he is even as good as Chris Webber is a joke.
> 
> I say bad deal for the Nuggs, because if Martin doesn't become a better player (it's arguable if he will) in the West, they just signed a guy who plateued for 90 million dollars and as a run-n-jump athlete, will soon lose his athleticism and they will be left with nothing, but an overpaid undersized PF.


:laugh:


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## Laphonz

Wow, with the amount of negativity in this thread I could swear the Nuggets just went back to their 11-71 days.

Draft picks are nice, but I'm content with the fact that the Nuggets were able to add an All-Star, a player who is a legit scoring threat down low, someone who brings tough defense & rebounding to the team without subtracting from the core of players that won 43 games last year and went to the playoffs.

With the Nuggets track record on draft day (Carmelo doesn't count, he fell into their laps) perhaps letting these picks go for a proven commodity isn't all that bad.

Say nay all you like, I'm just fine with this deal.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

I really don't see how Kmart is gonna help this team out to the tune of 90 mil.


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## Laphonz

It could be worse, we could be paying Allan Houston $17 million per year.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>Laphonz</b>!
> It could be worse, we could be paying Allan Houston $17 million per year.


Funny because while houstons contract ends soon, you're paying Martin for 7 years. Think he'll be an explosive 30 year old? Because that's what he'll be for the majority of the contract.

What's that you say, Houston's contract is crap?


At least it didnt cost us 3 first rounders.

Oh right yeah he wasn't in the playoffs this year. Remind me again whose been injured more.


Enjoy your overpriced undersized powerforward

And we'll enjoy our overpriced best shoooter in the league.


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## Laphonz

Lighten up slappy, I was just kidding around.

Awful sensitive about that contract, eh? Must've hit a nerve.

And yes, I'll greatly enjoy having Kenyon Martin on board, thank you very much.:yes:


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## swift88

martin is bootay, $90M of big fat bootay


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>Laphonz</b>!
> Lighten up slappy, I was just kidding around.
> 
> Awful sensitive about that contract, eh? Must've hit a nerve.
> 
> And yes, I'll greatly enjoy having Kenyon Martin on board, thank you very much.:yes:


Slappy? What are you some guy from the 30's?


As for hitting a nerve, don't kid yourself, you'll never be that important. I just like coming down on people who say stupid things.


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## nbanoitall

K martin will turn 30 in the 2007/2008 season

we are going into 2004/2005

he is just coming off of his rookie contract.

If he is healthy there is no question he will be worth the money.

Guys like Camby prove that you can be explosive and athletic after injury and even aging and hitting the "30" wall.

The big question is will K Martin be healthy during this contract. And IMO thats a big question.

As far as Houston goes.. He did good things in NY. Its a bad contract now towards the end. But overall when you look back he played really well for you.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>nbanoitall</b>!
> K martin will turn 30 in the 2007/2008 season
> 
> we are going into 2004/2005
> 
> he is just coming off of his rookie contract.
> 
> If he is healthy there is no question he will be worth the money.
> 
> Guys like Camby prove that you can be explosive and athletic after injury and even aging and hitting the "30" wall.
> 
> The big question is will K Martin be healthy during this contract. And IMO thats a big question.
> 
> As far as Houston goes.. He did good things in NY. Its a bad contract now towards the end. But overall when you look back he played really well for you.



He did, but that's not the point.

Guys like Camby have skill and size. Camby as I'm sure you've seen is a phenomal rebounder and is a great shot blocker relying on his length timing and boxing out skills.


Kmart doesn't have this. He has freakish athleticism.

He was born in 77 He'll be 30 in 2007.
In 2004 He signed a 7 year contract. 

As for his health, it's always been a question, and it's not going to get better. Camby was unique in that he was misdiagnoses by the Knicks staff.

Kmart is undersized. Camby is 7' Kmart is a generous 6'9. Camby has range on his shot and back to the basket skill.

Kmart has almost no range and little back to the basket skill.

I don't see why he's worth 90 mil to this team. He doesn't fill a whole. He doesn't open up the offense. He doesn't provide anything you really didn't have before.


I really don't understand his value to the nuggets.


Kmart doesn't bring anything new to the table, nor does he provide anything spectacular. You have to remember he's been a pf in the east. Outwest Second Tier forwards like Jamison, Brand, and Murphy have always got the better of him. 


He may have looked great against KT in the playoffs but look how well he did when KT didn't have a broken pinky.


Kmart is a phony, he really isn't as good as he is made out to be and someday he just isn't going to jump as high and turn as quick, and then you'll be left with a slow unskilled guy sucking capspace.


You'll also be left out of the lottery.


Ray Allen is a FA next year. Ray freakin allen. Honestly would it have been so bad to just keep the money, develop nene some more and nab Ray?


I've read the front court depth argument.

Ellison, Melo, Camby, Nene, Andersen.

You already had that.


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## nbanoitall

i have a little more faith in Kmart than u do...but it all depends on health...would I have pulled the trigger on this....well youve read all my posts the last few months...what do you think??

ray allen...like him a lot
i had this guy in mind but who knows we just traded a lot of draft picks away

http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/louiswilliams.asp


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## Stacka_Lee

1) the nuggets now have the best front court depth in the league, more or less

2) kenyon was the best player they were going to get with the cap space this year or next year

3) after that, melo at least is up for a max-type contract, which means the cap space will be gone.

Seems like it's either this or nothing for the Nuggets. And I think Martin is a player against everyone except duncan and garnett at the position. he was great in the detroit series and generally does a nice defensive job vs. jo.


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## Stacka_Lee

So yes, they overpaid, but I think it's better than the alternative.


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## Laphonz

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Slappy? What are you some guy from the 30's?
> 
> 
> As for hitting a nerve, don't kid yourself, you'll never be that important. I just like coming down on people who say stupid things.


I'm heartbroken, really. 

Anyway, it seems that there are people on both sides of the coin on this one. Some Nuggets fans thinking they gave up way too much, some Nets fans think they got nothing in return. Some think this moves vaults the Nuggets up the ranks in the Western Conference, some think it was a pointless overpayment.

Time will tell.


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## JT

*defensively he is good though.*

Denver should've developed Nene more like folks here said. It was the classic case of "i got money i gotta spend it before its too late!". 

KMart, while being an excellent transition player, gets exposed in the halfcourt. See the back to back Finals, he pulled multiple Van Horns while being bent over by Duncan and Shaq.

He has a lot of fun on the court, running dunking and stuttering, but against teams like the Spurs and Wolves this guy doesn't give you an edge, and with the money he is getting he should.

You build up to your competition in this game, Denver needed a SG badly and they got an undersized PF and lost 3 draft picks and all their cap space....

But give Kiki credit, he made sure that Denver will be on the SportsCenter highlights for quite some time now.


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## arenas809

This trade is the dumbest thing Kiki has ever done.


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## ToddMacCulloch11

Kenyon will definitely help the team, but he was definitely overpayed. He's improving as a player, but playing against the smaller eastern teams more often and playing with Kidd helped him a lot. $90 mil and three draft picks for a player that averaged 16.7ppg and 9.5 rpg is quite a lot. I know he's got upside, and I wish the nets still had him, but he definitely did not deserve that much.


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## Keith Closs

i wouldnt care about the picks the way it takes 5 years to see if a player is good or not...this isnt the nfl first round picks in the nba are not that valuable at all..

As far as the money martin isnt a max player but in the market this summer he is with medicore playes making 60 mil ..

i would judge this on what are the free agent classes like the next two years..

I dont know maybe kiki looked at the crop next year and thought that martin was as good or better then anyone avialable next year..


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>nbanoitall</b>!
> i have a little more faith in Kmart than u do...but it all depends on health...would I have pulled the trigger on this....well youve read all my posts the last few months...what do you think??
> 
> ray allen...like him a lot
> i had this guy in mind but who knows we just traded a lot of draft picks away
> 
> http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/louiswilliams.asp


With a front court like Camby ane Nene you can afford to have a player like Allen, who isn't a good defender. He would make this team a semi-final lock imo


As for your draft. Well I don't follow college to much until it shapes up, and I almost never follow highschool. I am an international guy. As such I thought this would have been the guy to hype


http://nbadraft.net/profiles/zhufangyu.asp


http://nbadraft.net/profiles/zhufangyu.htm


IMO you need a more balanced guy that can live with others dominating the ball and will attack the floor and the glass and the opponent whenever you put him out there.

We'll see what happens.


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## Rafaelaraujotody

Big Nugz fan here i hope Martin trade pays off... but i really don't see that happening... :no: He is good... but not 90MM$ and three first round picks good!  

What the hell was Kiki thinking!?Denver already have Nene and Camby at PF(Yes... Camby is really a PF, not a C)! He should have used this money on Q, Ginobili, Barry, Big Z or even Harrington(Push Melo to SG, although it might not be a smart move)!

One more year growing... Let's play for the title already!


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## knickstorm

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> He did, but that's not the point.
> 
> Guys like Camby have skill and size. Camby as I'm sure you've seen is a phenomal rebounder and is a great shot blocker relying on his length timing and boxing out skills.
> 
> 
> Kmart doesn't have this. He has freakish athleticism.
> 
> He was born in 77 He'll be 30 in 2007.
> In 2004 He signed a 7 year contract.
> 
> As for his health, it's always been a question, and it's not going to get better. Camby was unique in that he was misdiagnoses by the Knicks staff.
> 
> Kmart is undersized. Camby is 7' Kmart is a generous 6'9. Camby has range on his shot and back to the basket skill.
> 
> Kmart has almost no range and little back to the basket skill.
> 
> I don't see why he's worth 90 mil to this team. He doesn't fill a whole. He doesn't open up the offense. He doesn't provide anything you really didn't have before.
> 
> 
> I really don't understand his value to the nuggets.
> 
> 
> Kmart doesn't bring anything new to the table, nor does he provide anything spectacular. You have to remember he's been a pf in the east. Outwest Second Tier forwards like Jamison, Brand, and Murphy have always got the better of him.
> 
> 
> He may have looked great against KT in the playoffs but look how well he did when KT didn't have a broken pinky.
> 
> 
> Kmart is a phony, he really isn't as good as he is made out to be and someday he just isn't going to jump as high and turn as quick, and then you'll be left with a slow unskilled guy sucking capspace.
> 
> 
> You'll also be left out of the lottery.
> 
> 
> Ray Allen is a FA next year. Ray freakin allen. Honestly would it have been so bad to just keep the money, develop nene some more and nab Ray?
> 
> 
> I've read the front court depth argument.
> 
> Ellison, Melo, Camby, Nene, Andersen.
> 
> You already had that.


he's just a bitter knick fan whose upset Kmart made TIm Thomas look like a little baby. Denver fans will love this move come the regular season. Kmart is much more than freak athleticism. Lets not pretend the Easy has zilch forwards. Kenyon held his own vs Jermaine O'Neal the past few years and this year in the playoffs, rasheed and ben went back and forth with Kmart.

Go ahead and blame Kurt THomas' pinky, bottom line is Kmart is a valuable addition to denver who had little toughness to begin with, now they have that. I'd expect someone from the tri-state area to at the very least acknowledge kenyon is under-rated by those outside the area. There's always something for you to pick on, first he's a fire cracker who blows up at every foul call, then he's a thug for flagrantly fouling people, and now.........he's just a freak athlete.


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## NYCbballFan

I don't think the 3 first round picks is that big a deal. In addition to the protections, I agree with the pundits that the 1st round is turning into the MLB draft. The Nugz already have a full core of young vets and up-and-coming stars, and Skita. For the next 2-3 seasons, they don't need to use any more roster spots and 4-year contracts for developmental players. 

I agree that 90 mil is an awful lot for K-Mart, but Kiki may be looking at Martin as a final piece type of player rather than a head-lining superstar.

From what I observed of the Nugz in 03-04, they have plenty of talent, size, athleticism and depth. They lacked leadership, maturity, toughness, cohesion, the kind of intangibles that can transform all of that talent into a top team.

Martin could be the final piece player Kiki wants. He's not just a run/jump athlete. He plays with great passion. He's a hard worker and hungry. He's an old-school, fierce competitor. He's a smart player, a student of the game - he emulates Bill Russell. Coming from the Nets system, he plays the right away with a focus on the little things. He won't make undisciplined or dumb mistakes. He won't be caught out of position. He's a very versatile, highly polished defender and shot-blocker who can defend most PFs, SFs, and even SGs. An excellent help defender. There will be nights Martin and Camby as a tandem will give opposing teams fits. Martin simply makes plays.

Offensively, Martin has some game. He's aggressive, explosive and quick, of course. He has a few hook shots, he can hit the mid-range jumper and against slower Fs, he can drive and slash effectively. On the Nugz, he won't need to be a primary scorer and that should make him MORE dangerous. He can make a bigger impact off the ball and weak-side, running on the break and especially attacking the offensive glass.

Martin won't be a 20 PPG scorer, but he plays the kind of game that should help the team's PPG go up and the team's points allowed go down. At the end of the season, Nugz fans may be disappointed with Martin's individual stats but they should also be very pleased with the team results.

The major concern with Martin is his injury history, including his knee and ankle problems last season. He is undersized at PF, and he relies on his freakish athleticism. If the nagging injuries continue, that could be a problem as he enters his 30s.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>knickstorm</b>!
> 
> 
> he's just a bitter knick fan whose upset Kmart made TIm Thomas look like a little baby.



What are you stupid? You must be knew or an utter moron. It's been well documented that I hate Tim Thomas. 


What a stupid thing to say 

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 



> Kenyon held his own vs Jermaine O'Neal the past few years and this year in the playoffs, rasheed and ben went back and forth with Kmart.


Complete lie.

JO has always shot over 50% when facing him.

Ben Wallace held him under his season average the majority of those games. He also averaged almost 5 fouls a game that series and 3 turnovers.





> Go ahead and blame Kurt THomas' pinky, bottom line is Kmart is a valuable addition to denver who had little toughness to begin with, now they have that.


Wrong again. Melo, Nene, Andersen Ellison, those were all tough guys. So is boykins.


> I'd expect someone from the tri-state area to at the very least acknowledge kenyon is under-rated by those outside the area. There's always something for you to pick on, first he's a fire cracker who blows up at every foul call, then he's a thug for flagrantly fouling people, and now.........he's just a freak athlete.


Well at least you got his description right.


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## FanOfAll8472

Completely OT but I think it's really interesting the last 3 posters had something to do with New York or Knick in their name...


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## NYCbballFan

> Originally posted by <b>FanOfAll8472</b>!
> Completely OT but I think it's really interesting the last 3 posters had something to do with New York or Knick in their name...


It's understandable considering we're the ones who've watched Martin the most in his career with the Nets. Martin is very popular in the NY/NJ area. He's also severely disliked by some.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> I really don't see how Kmart is gonna help this team out to the tune of 90 mil.


yea because if we signed him for 70 mill, that THAT would have helped us! oh thats right, we wouldnt have gotten him - and wed be worse.

lol. use logic man.


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Funny because while houstons contract ends soon, you're paying Martin for 7 years. Think he'll be an explosive 30 year old? Because that's what he'll be for the majority of the contract.
> 
> What's that you say, Houston's contract is crap?
> 
> 
> At least it didnt cost us 3 first rounders.
> 
> Oh right yeah he wasn't in the playoffs this year. Remind me again whose been injured more.
> 
> 
> Enjoy your overpriced undersized powerforward
> 
> And we'll enjoy our overpriced best shoooter in the league.


:laugh:


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## RoddneyThaRippa

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:


You know what's funny? 

Living in your parents basement at 33 years old...

Spending all your time managing a dead-end board...

Having a virtual girlfriend...

Cybering...


The post by Knicksbiggestfan! wasn't funny. It was absolutely right. 

You'll wake up one of these days. That awakening will probably come with a break from your parents' basement and a transition into your *own * place. Hopefully, that day will come sooner than later, but I'm not holding my breath.


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## Rafaelaraujotody

Wow... tension is raising up in this piece!

Chill out everyone... Martin is not ging to suck... he is not going to pay off the 3 picks and 90MM buy hey... we are going to be on ESPN all the time now... :laugh:


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## Knicksbiggestfan

You know what I hadn't thought about til now.

We all know there is arift between Dre and Melo, and it's pretty severe from a chemistry standpoint.

Well, what if Kmart is insurance or motivation to make sure that Melo ( who is already showing signs of having an attitude) shapes up. 

Given that he quit out a game, he said some off color stuff, and has been feuding with Dre, don't you think that Kmart will provide a sort of motivation for Melo to shape up his act, because Kmart could easily replace him in the rotation.

Maybe that's what Kiki saw in him.


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## Rafaelaraujotody

Melo is a spoiled little kid...
Martin will help him realize that we don't NEED to have only Melo...

Let's say this now before we have another Kobe Bryant beeing formed...


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## NYCbballFan

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Well, what if Kmart is insurance or motivation to make sure that Melo ( who is already showing signs of having an attitude) shapes up.


You hit on why I think Kiki is willing to give K-Mart what many Martin fans, let alone detractors, view as an overpriced contract.

Martin is signed for what he can do, but he's also being paid for what Kiki hopes he can provide to elevate his teammates' games, Anthony first among them.

The Nugz have got the talent, size, depth and athleticism already. They need leadership, an embodiment of the values that can transform a group of talented individuals into a powerful TEAM.

Kiki, I think, wants his talented but immature players to use K-Mart as a role model, and that's where a max contract does its work. If max pay equals max cred, then Kiki's placement of K-Mart on top of cred-heirarchy of the Nugz compels the young Nugz to emulate Martin's approach to the game and focus their talent.


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## arenas809

> Originally posted by <b>RoddneyThaRippa</b>!
> 
> 
> You know what's funny?
> 
> Living in your parents basement at 33 years old...
> 
> Spending all your time managing a dead-end board...
> 
> Having a virtual girlfriend...
> 
> Cybering...
> 
> 
> The post by Knicksbiggestfan! wasn't funny. It was absolutely right.
> 
> You'll wake up one of these days. That awakening will probably come with a break from your parents' basement and a transition into your *own * place. Hopefully, that day will come sooner than later, but I'm not holding my breath.


Wow this is beyond hilarious...


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## sheefo13

This guy is not even worth it. Boozer i think is a better player. And to give up 3 firdt round picks and to give him a 13 million dollars signing bonus is crazy. tHIS team has to worry about melo wanting to resign, nene wanting to resign, trying to trade a horrible camby contract, trying to bring in young players because you traded away your last 4 first round picks, all in the span of those bogus 6 years that martin is signed for


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## FanOfAll8472

> Originally posted by <b>RoddneyThaRippa</b>!
> You know what's funny?
> 
> Living in your parents basement at 33 years old...
> 
> Spending all your time managing a dead-end board...
> 
> Having a virtual girlfriend...
> 
> Cybering...
> 
> 
> The post by Knicksbiggestfan! wasn't funny. It was absolutely right.
> 
> You'll wake up one of these days. That awakening will probably come with a break from your parents' basement and a transition into your *own * place. Hopefully, that day will come sooner than later, but I'm not holding my breath.


You said what?


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## RoddneyThaRippa

> Originally posted by <b>NYCbballFan</b>!
> 
> 
> You hit on why I think Kiki is willing to give K-Mart what many Martin fans, let alone detractors, view as an overpriced contract.
> 
> Martin is signed for what he can do, but he's also being paid for what Kiki hopes he can provide to elevate his teammates' games, Anthony first among them.
> 
> The Nugz have got the talent, size, depth and athleticism already. They need leadership, an embodiment of the values that can transform a group of talented individuals into a powerful TEAM.
> 
> Kiki, I think, wants his talented but immature players to use K-Mart as a role model, and that's where a max contract does its work. If max pay equals max cred, then Kiki's placement of K-Mart on top of cred-heirarchy of the Nugz compels the young Nugz to emulate Martin's approach to the game and focus their talent.


How did Martin elevate his New Jersey teammates? By fighting in practice and taking a pot shot a someone's life-threatening kidney ailment?


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## RoddneyThaRippa

> Originally posted by <b>FanOfAll8472</b>!
> 
> You said what?


Basically, I summed up Nugzfan's life in one post.


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## Focus

> Originally posted by <b>NYCbballFan</b>!
> 
> a student of the game - he emulates Bill Russell.


Plz don't put Kmart and Bill Russell on the same sentense.:devil:


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## Rafaelaraujotody

> Originally posted by NYCbballFan!
> a student of the game - he emulates Bill Russell.


Bill Russel!?  

Man... you must really like Martin han?! :sigh: 

I'm not even a Celtics fan but I'm pissed... :upset:


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## Jordan23

Did anyone follow the Nets the past 3 years ? Two final apperances and a hard fought series lost against the Detroit Pistons who remember beat the lakers in 5 games.

Kenyon Martin has incredible game. He brings it 100 percent every night. The guy can Get up with the all the big men. The guy is much much more versatile than most of the big men.

I think Kenyon Martin will be a huge factor in the Denver Nuggets success this up coming season.

I'm happy with the trade. And I don't feel as our guards are that bad heck Miller to me is top 10 in the league. Voshon Lenard is a very good supporting guard ( you dont need Kobe Bryant to win a championship ) Andre Miller does so much more than just shoot the ball. He is a great passer , defender and rebounder. Very athletic big guard. Than you have Carmelo Anthony who I'm sure will play the 3 who has a very good mid range game and his outside shot will continue to get better and better. Remember he is only 20 years old. I believe Carmelo will average around 25 pts 8 rebounds and 4 assits next year.

Kenyon Martin should be a solid 20 and 10 guy .

And everyone please don't forget we made it in to the playoffs last year with the same guards. Camby will improve this year and has a good mid range jump shot. Also nene will be an excellent inside force to come off the bench. Right now the Nuggets front line is loaded. And in my opinion Andre Miller is one of the best guards in the league. I wouldnt be suprised through if the Denver Nuggets let skita go to free up some more money to go after another shooting guard to back up lenard.

My prediction is that the Nuggets win 50 games this up coming season!


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## bullet

I don't think he's worth the Max - but I do think he's close to it.

He's not the guy to lead and score when U really need it (U got Mello for that) but he does bring rebounding , intensity , 15+ points , and most important - very good defense , plays both sides.I don't consider this a bad contract but it should have been slightly less imo


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## Rafaelaraujotody

> He's not the guy to lead and score when U really need it (U got Mello for that) but he does bring rebounding , intensity , 15+ points , and most important - very good defense , plays both sides.I don't consider this a bad contract but it should have been slightly less imo


Could not agree more... Except the things you said about Melo... 
I've alwys said his a spoiled little brat with MAD basketball skills who will end up like Kobe Bryant... You know... Wanting a "Melo's Team" something like that...


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>Jordan23</b>!
> Did anyone follow the Nets the past 3 years ? Two final apperances and a hard fought series lost against the Detroit Pistons who remember beat the lakers in 5 games.
> 
> Kenyon Martin has incredible game. He brings it 100 percent every night. The guy can Get up with the all the big men. The guy is much much more versatile than most of the big men.
> 
> I think Kenyon Martin will be a huge factor in the Denver Nuggets success this up coming season.
> 
> I'm happy with the trade. And I don't feel as our guards are that bad heck Miller to me is top 10 in the league. Voshon Lenard is a very good supporting guard ( you dont need Kobe Bryant to win a championship ) Andre Miller does so much more than just shoot the ball. He is a great passer , defender and rebounder. Very athletic big guard. Than you have Carmelo Anthony who I'm sure will play the 3 who has a very good mid range game and his outside shot will continue to get better and better. Remember he is only 20 years old. I believe Carmelo will average around 25 pts 8 rebounds and 4 assits next year.
> 
> Kenyon Martin should be a solid 20 and 10 guy .
> 
> And everyone please don't forget we made it in to the playoffs last year with the same guards. Camby will improve this year and has a good mid range jump shot. Also nene will be an excellent inside force to come off the bench. Right now the Nuggets front line is loaded. And in my opinion Andre Miller is one of the best guards in the league. I wouldnt be suprised through if the Denver Nuggets let skita go to free up some more money to go after another shooting guard to back up lenard.
> 
> My prediction is that the Nuggets win 50 games this up coming season!


hell yeah - great post. the best thing about the haters is that they are wrong (imagine if they knew anything or were ever right! oh no!). 

this is great news for the nuggets. its gonna be a great season! :yes:


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## RoddneyThaRippa

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> 
> 
> its gonna be a great season! :yes:


You've been saying that since '96...


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## Jordan23

> You've been saying that since '96...


With Carmelo Anthony we should all keep saying that for another 10 - 15 years.

Feels good to be a Nuggets fan!


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## shazha

Correct me if im wrong but didnt some guy called shaq get traded for 3 first round picks, back in his orlando days. 

The thing is, Kiki cant afford to have a summer without adding to his team. What use is cap space if they dont use it. sure they over paid, but they desperately needed some quality players to add depth to this team. 

Most denver fans would agree that melo is their star, melo is their main offensive weapon. If kenyon can chip in with his points, but rebound and play good defense this team can only get better. They dont need more youth to develop, they want to make a move now. With the nuggets improving rapidly, their next 3 first rounders would be pretty low picks anyways.

Those three picks wont guarantee star players, especially if they keep finishing around 0.500. With kenyon they can take the next step and maybe move into the 2nd round, as carmelo and his team mesh, they can only get better.


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## shazha

Someone earlier said they would be shooting bricks from outside, but with a big man rotation of camby/anderson and kenyon/nene they will have the boards covered well.

I can see them rebounding defensively and running all nite long. This is going to be one hell of an energetic team.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>RoddneyThaRippa</b>!
> 
> 
> How did Martin elevate his New Jersey teammates? By fighting in practice and taking a pot shot a someone's life-threatening kidney ailment?


Ha ha.

Ah well, at least he'll get melo to stop the egotistical ****.

When and if he does, you guys are headed for a good couple of years.

It's luxury time for the nugs. Time to start worrying more about the front office and coaching staff rather than the players.


P.S. Stay away from George Karl at all costs.


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## JT

*karl is a damn joke.*



> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> P.S. Stay away from George Karl at all costs.


Team USA already found out that one...


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>RoddneyThaRippa</b>!
> 
> 
> You've been saying that since '96...


:yes:


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## NugzFan

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Ha ha.
> 
> Ah well, at least he'll get melo to stop the egotistical ****.
> 
> When and if he does, you guys are headed for a good couple of years.
> 
> It's luxury time for the nugs. Time to start worrying more about the front office and coaching staff rather than the players.
> 
> 
> P.S. Stay away from George Karl at all costs.


no need to worry...we have a REAL owner.


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