# Problem is (Front &) Center



## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

Ok so I've been talking about the celtics for weeks, but one position consistently makes me nervous...

The consensus has Kendrick starting (no surprise there), but who will back him up and how many minutes a night can we expect from the foul prone Perkins?

Those questions are somewhat rhetorical because I don't believe there's a good answer (I don't like the idea of playing AJ downlow and losing that defense). Are there any options out there? 

Options I propose (not all are good ideas admittedly):
-Sam Dalembert should be very available. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't philly been trying to dump his crappy contract? I would offer Theo for Dalembert straight up.
-Jeff Foster and David Harrison for Ratliff. Not top value for Ratliff's contract, but Foster rebounds and plays D and doesn't shoot the ball.
-GG+Theo+future pick for JO? (need more contracts going from boston to make this work I think). After this summer league it's probably a long shot for GG to hold value.
-Send GG+Scalabrine to Washington for Brendan Haywood.

I personally like Jeff Foster. His Rebound per 48 mins numbers are tremendous.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

bring back the kandi man!!! :yay: :yay:


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

that package wont land JO. But I am down for Dalemburt.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

Green, Ratliff, Telfair, Tony Allen, and a first round pick for O'Neal?


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## Banjoriddim (Aug 14, 2004)

urwhatueati8god said:


> Green, Ratliff, Telfair, Tony Allen, and a first round pick for O'Neal?


No way.


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

urwhatueati8god said:


> Green, Ratliff, Telfair, Tony Allen, and a first round pick for O'Neal?


Why would you want O'Neal??? He's a whiner crybaby loser! His teams don't win and he's not a leader! The last thing Boston needs is yet another second bannana... because three isn't enough.

(I don't mean to take this out on you personally, I'm just upset that people think O'Neal's a franchise player.)


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

narrator said:


> Why would you want O'Neal??? He's a whiner crybaby loser! His teams don't win and he's not a leader! The last thing Boston needs is yet another second bannana... because three isn't enough.
> 
> (I don't mean to take this out on you personally, I'm just upset that people think O'Neal's a franchise player.)


Actually a second banana is exactly what we need. O'Neal is an above average defender and a very good offensive player (especially in the half court). If Indiana somehow did agree to that trade, we would instantly have the best starting 5 in the east.


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> bring back the kandi man!!! :yay: :yay:


The scary thing is... what if we end up doing this out of necessity?


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## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

Ratliff said in today's Globe that he is feeling healthy and fully expects to play next season. If this is true, and we end up keeping him, do you think he could be a serviceable big man? I know he won't be the same player he used to be, but let's just say he's 75 percent of the player he used to be. I think that could be useful, considering we have Perkins and then nobody else really. It would probably be better to trade him, but only if we get something better in return.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

mrsister said:


> Ratliff said in today's Globe that he is feeling healthy and fully expects to play next season. If this is true, and we end up keeping him, do you think he could be a serviceable big man? I know he won't be the same player he used to be, but let's just say he's 75 percent of the player he used to be. I think that could be useful, considering we have Perkins and then nobody else really. It would probably be better to trade him, but only if we get something better in return.


I'll take Foster, plus we get Harrison.

Harrison and Perkins in the front line = (sl)ownage,

Speaking of Perkins. I don't believe he'll be starting.

Jefferson
Gomes
Pierce
Allen
Rondo

If Gomes doesn't start, he probably will get lost in Rivers' crazy rotations.


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

aquaitious said:


> I'll take Foster, plus we get Harrison.
> 
> Harrison and Perkins in the front line = (sl)ownage,
> 
> ...


How the hell would this team play defense against any team with a center and a power forward (Miami, Cleveland, Milwaukee, etc.)?


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

silverpaw1786 said:


> Actually a second banana is exactly what we need. O'Neal is an above average defender and a very good offensive player (especially in the half court). If Indiana somehow did agree to that trade, we would instantly have the best starting 5 in the east.


If you have four second bananas and no leaders, then what? That's what I was getting at. O'Neal is paid like a superduperstar. The fact is that he's not a superduperstar and never will be. His "leadership" is sniping from the bench while he's out hurt. I don't understand the infatuation with him, honestly.

Boston needs an alpha dog. And no, Paul Pierce isn't an alpha dog.


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

Ummm Paul Pierce is an alpha dog. He's led Boston to the Eastern Conference Finals once already with an abysmal supporting cast (excepting Antoine). He is a hall of famer (basketball-reference.com lists him as a .773 probability if he retired today).

An argument could even be made that Ray Allen can lead. I expect Marcus13 to chime in here.


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## cgcatsfan (Jun 10, 2005)

Narrator, 
Are you a Celtics Fan? Follow them at all?
Just asking...

Paul Pierce not an alpha dog, please.........


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> And no, Paul Pierce isn't an alpha dog.


If he's not, then by your standards there are only about ten in the NBA. Paul Pierce a second option? Please.

Look at his track record of teams he's taken to the playoffs. Look at the players on them. Then try and tell me Pierce can't lead a team.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

silverpaw1786 said:


> How the hell would this team play defense against any team with a center and a power forward (Miami, Cleveland, Milwaukee, etc.)?


Please direct all your questions towards Danny Ainge, not me, I didn't trade for those guys.

Jefferson has shown he can't play power forward.

Perkins has shown he can't stay in the game longer than 15 minutes.

Gomes has shown that he's a valuable player.

I'm just putting the puzzles together.


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

When did Jefferson prove he couldn't play power forward? He looked lost when I saw him try to play the 5.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

silverpaw1786 said:


> When did Jefferson prove he couldn't play power forward? He looked lost when I saw him try to play the 5.


His first three years he was playing the 4. Last year he was our Center. A constant lineup of Jefferson, Gomes and three guards proves that.


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

Actually the most common 5 man unit containing both Gomes and Jefferson had Perkins playing center. In fact, when Gomes and Jefferson were on the court together, there was a 3-guard lineup only 21% of the time. If we consider Wally Szcerbiak and Gerald Green as guards that number jumps to 47%. Still the majority of the time that Gomes and Jefferson played together, there were only two guards on the court.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

silverpaw1786 said:


> Actually the most common 5 man unit containing both Gomes and Jefferson had Perkins playing center. In fact, when Gomes and Jefferson were on the court together, there was a 3-guard lineup only 21% of the time. If we consider Wally Szcerbiak and Gerald Green as guards that number jumps to 47%. Still the majority of the time that Gomes and Jefferson played together, there were only two guards on the court.


They must not have kept stats once Perkins got injured.

In either case, Al Jefferson not playing Center will bite us in the ***.


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

yes they did it was 82games.com


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> If he's not, then by your standards there are only about ten in the NBA. Paul Pierce a second option? Please.
> 
> Look at his track record of teams he's taken to the playoffs. Look at the players on them. Then try and tell me Pierce can't lead a team.


I think what narrator (I could be wrong) is saying is that Pierce is not a vocal leader. He is a #1 option on the floor, but not a general off it. This is widely believed.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

This team won't have any problems with leadership next year. Pierce is a good but not great leader and it was Antoine Walker who constantly motivated him that year when they made the conference finals(incidentally when he came back that half a season they made the playoffs again). I think Ray Allen will provide the same leadership qualities that Antoine brought. Pierce is a great player but he can't lead by himself, which is fine because now he has help.

As for the center position. Getting Harrison or Foster would obviously help. A healthy Ratliff can do wonders for the team also.


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## BackwoodsBum (Jul 2, 2003)

c_dog said:


> This team won't have any problems with leadership next year. Pierce is a good but not great leader and it was Antoine Walker who constantly motivated him that year when they made the conference finals(incidentally when he came back that half a season they made the playoffs again). I think Ray Allen will provide the same leadership qualities that Antoine brought. Pierce is a great player but he can't lead by himself, which is fine because now he has help.


I agree wholeheartedly. I think Allen's character and leadership will be as valuable if not more so than anything he does on the court.



c_dog said:


> As for the center position. Getting Harrison or Foster would obviously help. A healthy Ratliff can do wonders for the team also.


I'm not betting on Ratliff but if by some miracle he could play a full season at anywhere near his past level he would be as good or better than anyone else we could hope to get. Contract years have proven to be miracle worker for other player so who knows???


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

I doubt Theo plays beyond his current contract.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

If Theo just puts on his jersey and step on the floor, he's good for 2 blocks and numerous altered shots, along with some rebounds in 10-13 minutes. He doesn't need to be the player he used to be, just needs to get healthy. Even with injuries I see no reason he can't play as well as the 40 year old mutumbo.

Of course, him being healthy to put on his jersey itself is a big big IF.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

id rather trade his expiring contract then hope that he plays as well as a 40 year old mutumbo


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

me too.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

silverpaw1786 said:


> Actually the most common 5 man unit containing both Gomes and Jefferson had Perkins playing center. In fact, when Gomes and Jefferson were on the court together, there was a 3-guard lineup only 21% of the time. If we consider Wally Szcerbiak and Gerald Green as guards that number jumps to 47%. Still the majority of the time that Gomes and Jefferson played together, there were only two guards on the court.


When Al is on the floor he defends the lane. Not the opposing team's perimeter big. The PF/C designations are becoming as meaningless as the SF/SG ones. There are tasks to be handled, the ones Al handles are defending the lane, and getting lured out of position to chase down blocks. Unfortunately that's exactly the same thing that Perkins is best at. So while Al is "playing the 4" it's generally Perkins that gets the thankless task of defending the pick & roll and chasing around after perimeter bigs.


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

Causeway said:


> I think what narrator (I could be wrong) is saying is that Pierce is not a vocal leader. He is a #1 option on the floor, but not a general off it. This is widely believed.


Exactly.



P-Dub34 said:


> Look at his track record of teams he's taken to the playoffs. Look at the players on them. Then try and tell me Pierce can't lead a team.


Pierce has never taken a team by himself. He had Walker there to be the (vocal) leader both times. Pierce can't rally the troops. That's what Boston needs. (NB: I may or may not be wrong about Ray Allen re: vocal leadership; I guess I'll see for sure in November.)


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

cgcatsfan said:


> Narrator,
> *Are you a Celtics Fan? Follow them at all?*
> Just asking...
> 
> Paul Pierce not an alpha dog, please.........


Not sure what that has to do with anything but if it helps: I watch the Celts when I can and I find Tommy Heinsohn's descent into insanity hilarious. So, yeah, I'm a fan. Does that make my opinion more valid now?


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

By the way - your vocal leader does not have to be your #1 player. He just needs to be good enough, and smart enough, to have the respect of the team. We have not had a vocal leader for a while.


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

Causeway said:


> By the way - your vocal leader does not have to be your #1 player. He just needs to be good enough, and smart enough, to have the respect of the team. We have not had a vocal leader for a while.


I agree. Well said.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Causeway said:


> By the way - your vocal leader does not have to be your #1 player. He just needs to be good enough, and smart enough, to have the respect of the team. We have not had a vocal leader for a while.



hmmmm...who would you say was our last one???


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> hmmmm...who would you say was our last one???


I said vocal _leader_. Not _most_ vocal.


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

A vocal leader isn't necessarily better than a non-vocal leader.


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

(leading by example)


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

You don't have to be loud, but you need to be vocal.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

You can have the quiet guys who sit there and show you how to be a pro, but you aren't going places if you don't have the vocal guy who gets in your face and tells you what you need to be doing.

Antoine was the last guy we had that did that.

Perkins seems to be the only guy we have now that speaks up.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

agoo101284 said:


> You can have the quiet guys who sit there and show you how to be a pro, but you aren't going places if you don't have the vocal guy who gets in your face and tells you what you need to be doing.
> 
> Antoine was the last guy we had that did that.
> 
> Perkins seems to be the only guy we have now that speaks up.


So being a scrub is a prerequisite? :bsmile:


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> id rather trade his expiring contract then hope that he plays as well as a 40 year old mutumbo


If we can package him for an answer at center or even pg, then he's as good as gone(btw, is it even possible to get KG at this point?). But since this thread is about who can contribute, his name is going to come up simply for what he could do when he was healthy.


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

silverpaw1786 said:


> (leading by example)


A fine way to lead, if I do say so myself. But example's not enough: you have to be willing to pull a guy aside and tell him what he's doing wrong. Even better, you have to pull him aside and tell him what he did right. A leader who's looked up to is able to yell and retain respect. He's also able to quietly talk to someone and forcefully make his point. Most of all, the leader never whines or makes veiled threats. The alpha dog on the team must be all of that. And Pierce isn't that. He gets respect for the way he plays - which is undeniably very, very good - but he doesn't command respect as a leader. He's never been willing to assume that role, for better or for worse. Which is why the Celts need a leader, an alpha dog if you will.


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