# Iverson is this year's MVP



## Gtown07 (Dec 10, 2003)

I don't care about Lebron James, Steve Nash, Tim Duncan, etc. This years MVP is hands down Mr. Iverson. Did anyone see his performance today. In a game on national tv to keep the 76ers in the hunt for the Atlantic (yes that division) he had 38 points, 9 assists, 6 steals, 4 rebounds and played 44 minutes all on a recently sprained groin. True he shot 12 of 28 but that is subpar for him. AI is having his best season and he's doing it with very very little help. Not giving him the MVP would be ridiculous. A scoring title and a playoff spot with that team is damn impressive.


----------



## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Kevin Garnett missed out on it 2 years ago for the sole reason of his team having *only* the 4th best record in the NBA. Philly has the 17th best record this year.


----------



## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

first i dont see AI as as good as the nbas best he's one step behind...

but even if he was his team just isn't good enuff


----------



## Bobot (Mar 28, 2005)

Iverson is an amazing player but he doesn't deserve MVP, his team just isin't good enough. If Philly was first or second in the East then Iverson would have a very good chance at winning MVP but that fact is Philly is fighting for 8th in the East.


----------



## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

36-37 sorry but an MVP can't come from a losing team


----------



## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

sboydell said:


> 36-37 sorry but an MVP can't come from a losing team


Correct.


----------



## KingHandles (Mar 19, 2005)

He's alright, No MVP though. One thing he doese deserve is a championship I'll give him that. But there are more deserving players.


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

This is one of the most open ended mvp years yet.

Dwyane Wade, Shaq, and Steve Nash are the 3 guys most deserving imo, but Lebron will probaly get a lot of votes because he is the "in" thing even though he isn't that great (yet) and his team is on the biggest down spiral since the Bulls of 98 to 98-99.


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

I don't know about MVP.....but people have really been sleeping on him this season...I'm seeing people rank Wade over him..WTF??????


----------



## Kunlun (Jun 22, 2003)

Iverson does deserve some MVP consideration. The team has been pretty ****ty all season and he's still keeping them competitive. Leading the league in scoring and fifth in assists per game is really good, also he's shooting the ball better this season. But, in the end I don't even think he deserves the award, it should go to a player like Shaq or Duncan. The best player on the best team.


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

tone wone said:


> I don't know about MVP.....but people have really been sleeping on him this season...I'm seeing people rank Wade over him..WTF??????


Because Wade is a better defensive and offensive player.

Allen Iverson is the a pretty inefficient scorer that is a great defender and his assist numbers are hovering near 8 because of the amount of time he is on the court and the amount of time he has the ball in his hands. He is overrated on offense, but none the less is a great defender.


----------



## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

sloth said:


> Because Wade is a better defensive and offensive player.
> 
> Allen Iverson is the a pretty inefficient scorer that is a great defender and his assist numbers are hovering near 8 because of the amount of time he is on the court and the amount of time he has the ball in his hands. He is overrated on offense, but none the less is a great defender.


Wade is better than AI!? at _basketball_? :rofl: 

Damn you punk kids, no respect I tell ya, you're all so excited over the newest flavor of the month that you come out and make these ridiculous claims. tsk tsk...


----------



## sherwin (Mar 21, 2005)

Look at everyone on the Wade bandwagon :rofl: 

AI is almost 30 years old. If he wants a championship so bad, he shouldn't have signed with the Sixers in 03. He should take a paycut and start looking to get on a contender. Sixers are going nowhere... Webber sitting on the bench for a couple seasons sucking up tens of millions isn't gonna help either.


----------



## Gtown07 (Dec 10, 2003)

Guys for people to win the MVP they do have some exceptional talent not just being a good player on a great team. Nash is not an MVP, I dont care about the Suns record w/o him. His team is ridiculous. Give the 76ers one of those guys (Marion, AStod, JJohnson or QRich) and they not only win the division by 7 or 8 games but are on the same level as the heat in my opinion. And you could make a very good argument that DWade isn't the best player on his own team. AI is the leading scorer, leading receiver of minutes, 2nd in steals, and he's 5th in assists. DWade, SNash aren't on that level. They just dont have what AI has. 
When it comes to other annual candidates, Shaq isn't healthy on a regular basis and is not putting up MVP numbers, TD isn't healthy and is having a down yr, and Lebron's team is slipping. If the 76ers win the division there's no reason for him not to be awarded the MVP. This year is weak on candidates and he is having a much better season than he did when he won the championship. You guys need to think for yourselves and realize just b/c espn.com and sports illustrates isn't buzzing about him as an MVP he can still win if his team picks up momentum.
Also look at his team. They are Hornets or the Hawks w/o him. There is no denying that, instead they're going to the playoffs. 
AI is the truth and will be worst case a 1st team all NBAer, and he should be getting his 2nd MVP award as well.


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

I think the league is hell bent on getting Shaq his second MVP, but it would be wonderful if Iverson won it because he really is having his best season stats wise.


----------



## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

Gtown07 said:


> True he shot 12 of 28 but that is subpar for him.


It's odd that going 12-28 is subpar for Iverson when 42.8% (the percent of going 12-28) is actually higher than his season shooting percentage of 41.7%.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Yeah AI had a nice game in an important game.
But did you stick around and see Lebron's game in a similiarly important game?
The put him at PG and he ripped Dallas a new one. The crowd was chanting M-V-P, M-V-P...

A flock of doves was released. The sun was just so. Everyone watching knew their lives had changed. They had seen the future, in the present.
And God said, "It is well".


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Garnett is a much bigger impact player, much better defense, much better stats, and his team is a few games better. Yet Garnett hasn't even been talked about as a top 5 candidate. This proves that Iverson is just out of his league with the MVP talks, but since he is a fan favorite, his name gets tossed around.


----------



## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

About that comment about Wade being > over Iverson.

A.I is one of the true superstars in the league today, he is on a losing team for the past 2-3 seasons but given the amount of star players next to him, its not hard to believe. Prior to the Webber trade, I doubt anyone can name a Sixer who had a shot at even being considered an All-Star appearance. People who claim KG was on the same boat are kidding themselves. He has talent around him, Wally, Cassell, Sprewell are all bonafide stars, although they are having a horrible season, they are star level just a season ago.

This season, outside of Webber, no one is really able to carry the baggage next to A.I. Iguadala, Korver, Dalembert etc those guys are a few seasons away from really being able to assert themselves as legit contributors. 

Wade as explosive as he is this season, is pretty much producing inferior numbers to Iverson, however he is winning a lot. But thats because he has Shaq next to him, not to mention Eddie Jones, who although has declined is still a good player, still a star in my opinion. 
The acquisition of Webber was suppose to help them get over the line to the playoff spot, but Webber's health and serious loss of inside game has come sooner than Sixers was hoping for. A.I is playing like an MVP, the stats are there, but the wins are not. The MVP goes to the player that leads his team to *wins* by producing stats or impact.


----------



## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

Iverson has had a good year, no doubt. But I believe it will come down to Steve Nash, and Shaquille O'neal. I won't be bitter if Nash wins it, because he will have deserved it. He turned the Suns rightside up.


----------



## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

madskillz1_99 said:


> Damn you punk kids, no respect I tell ya, you're all so excited over the newest flavor of the month that you come out and make these ridiculous claims. tsk tsk...


I've been supporting Wade on these boards since last year, while sloth has been supporting him for longer than that. Flavor of the month my ***. 

I think the main difference between Wade and Iverson is Field Goal Percentage. Iverson shoots 42%, Wade shoots 48%. I'm not saying that one player is better than the other, that's just the difference between the two. Wade is a more efficient scorer, while Iverson is quicker and has the ability to produce an explosive scoring night for himself. Take your pick. I won't talk about defense though, since that's an impossible topic to tackle.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

madskillz1_99 said:


> Wade is better than AI!? at _basketball_? :rofl:
> 
> Damn you punk kids, no respect I tell ya, you're all so excited over the newest flavor of the month that you come out and make these ridiculous claims. tsk tsk...


It's not even like that really. MVP is an award given for the current year, and it's definitely not out of line to say Wade is having a better year than Iverson given the numbers. If you think Shaq is a huge reason why Wade is putting up those numbers, then that's a different story. That goes back to the Kobe vs. McGrady type argument. Sidekick on a contender vs. Superstar with no supporting cast.


----------



## Gtown07 (Dec 10, 2003)

DWade is not putting up better numbers. That is ****ing ridiculous. AI voting solely on stats (which I know isn't how it goes down) would walk away with this award. As a little guard he's number 1 in points per game which is ridiculous. But he's also 1 in minutes played, 2nd in steals, and 5th in assists!! DWade is not having a better year than he is. DWade is playing on a better team so his 30 point games are showcased more often. DWade said it himself: "if you consider me an MVP candidate you dont know the game of basketball" Read the slam with him on the cover. 

As far as KG not getting respect. I mean don't be an idiot. That team was suppose to be top 3 in the West and they're fighting for a playoff spot! If they were in the top 5 he'd be the favorite probably. The difference between these two is that the 76ers w/o AI would be wayyy worse off than the TWolves. KG is a fan favorite too. You can't argue that's the only reason AI is getting consideration. That's an embarassing argument. 

I think at the all star break Lebron was the favorite. But his team is tanking. They just can't win whether it's his fault or not it still matters. But I agree if there's one guy who can beat AI it is Lebron. But we'll see how the rest of the season goes for these two teams. 

Outside of maybe Lebron someone give me a player who is having a better season and means more to his team. It isnt happening.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Gtown07 said:


> I don't care about Lebron James, Steve Nash, Tim Duncan, etc. This years MVP is hands down Mr. Iverson. Did anyone see his performance today. In a game on national tv to keep the 76ers in the hunt for the Atlantic (yes that division) he had 38 points, 9 assists, 6 steals, 4 rebounds and played 44 minutes all on a recently sprained groin. True he shot 12 of 28 but that is subpar for him. AI is having his best season and he's doing it with very very little help. Not giving him the MVP would be ridiculous. A scoring title and a playoff spot with that team is damn impressive.


MVP's lead their teams to wins. Iverson is scratching to make the playoffs, that's why he's not going to be the MVP. He wont even finish top 3.


----------



## B Dizzle (Apr 3, 2004)

Iverson is playing the best season of his career, but the MVP award belongs to Steve Nash or to shaq because they're winning


----------



## hendrix2430 (Mar 21, 2005)

Yup, Iverson won't win it because the Sixers aren't winning, simple as that. If the MVP voting was solely based on stats AND especially on the importance of that one player's presence on his team, then Iverson would be one of the favorites.

There aren't many guys who mean SO much to their team than him. I can name maybe 4 or 5 MAX, and that's it:

-Allen Iverson 
-Lebron James
-Shaquille O Neal
-Kevin Garnett
-Tim Duncan

IMO, these guys should get the consideration for the MVP. They're all certainly the most deserving. If you take them away from their respective teams, each team's record would be mluch weaker, to different degrees of course. 
So, if you take the best record of these guys in consideration, it should be between Shaq and Duncan. Since Duncan's been huring a bit, I think Shaq will win it.

Now, say the Sixers, Cavs, Wolves, Spurs, and Heat had the exact same record. The award should go to either Iverson, Lebron or Garnett. Probably Lebron would win it since he has the best stats. KG isn't far behing at all.


----------



## hendrix2430 (Mar 21, 2005)

Oh, and for guys who say AI isn't better than Wade should give me some of what they're smoking. It must be dynamite...

It's just plain disrespectful for AI. I think AI is definitely better than Wade. And I don't think Wade will ever be as good as AI. I have no doubts that Wade will become a great GREAT player. But when AI's career is over, he'll probably be recognized as one of the top 15-20 players of all time. Wade probably won't.


----------



## ii9ce (Feb 1, 2005)

sherwin said:


> Look at everyone on the Wade bandwagon :rofl:
> 
> AI is almost 30 years old. If he wants a championship so bad, he shouldn't have signed with the Sixers in 03. He should take a paycut and start looking to get on a contender. Sixers are going nowhere... Webber sitting on the bench for a couple seasons sucking up tens of millions isn't gonna help either.


what ever happend to loyalty and trying to fix a problem instead running away?


----------



## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

If Minnesota or Philadelphia had the fourth best record (or better) in their respective conferences, Garnett or Iverson would be running away with the MVP race (IMO). Since they are both middle of the road teams this year, you have to look to the top teams.

If they want to give Shaq another MVP before his career ends, this will be the year to do it IMO. All of the top MVP candidates aren't having super years statistically.

The guys with better stats on good teams (Nash, McGrady, and Dirk), are all really receiving their first MVP consideration. Lebron is as well, but his team isn't performing at an elite level (i.e. he'll get some votes, but I doubt he will really be in the running for the award). That said, unless they are signficantly better statistically, I think it is unlikely that either Nash, McGrady, and Dirk will win the award. NBA politics weigh heavily on the award, and while I don't think that is necessarily right, it is what it is.

My vote would go to Nash for MVP, but I'm expecting Shaq to win the award once the season is done. The Kobe vs. Shaq story and seeing how each of their teams are performing this year vs. how they performed together last year will probably swing enough votes Shaq's way to win the award this season.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

B Dizzle said:


> Iverson is playing the best season of his career, but the MVP award belongs to Steve Nash or to shaq because they're winning


The best season of IVerson's career is the year when they went to the finals.


----------



## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

gian said:


> I've been supporting Wade on these boards since last year, while sloth has been supporting him for longer than that. Flavor of the month my ***.
> 
> I think the main difference between Wade and Iverson is Field Goal Percentage. Iverson shoots 42%, Wade shoots 48%. *I'm not saying that one player is better than the other,* that's just the difference between the two. Wade is a more efficient scorer, while Iverson is quicker and has the ability to produce an explosive scoring night for himself. Take your pick. I won't talk about defense though, since that's an impossible topic to tackle.


Yeah, and that's the problem. Because Iverson is clearly better. Get it?


----------



## PartisanRanger (Oct 24, 2004)

I'm a big Miami Heat and Dwyane Wade fan, but calling Wade better than AI at this point is pretty ridiculous. While I think Wade has made leaps and bounds this year and is among the best in the NBA, that's not enough to have him surpass a guy who's led his team to the Finals almost single-handedly and kept them competitive his entire career basically by himself.


----------



## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

Nope. 




Why exactly is he the most valuable player of the league for having his team struggle with a 500 record and a playoff spot? Shaq, Nash, and Duncan all deserve it over Iverson. That's at least 3 guys that deserve far more consideration than Iverson does. 


If we're look at statistics only and a player's most recent game, what about Garnett? Garnett is a better MVP canidate as well.


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Dwyane Wade in his first basketball year at Marquette led a team that wasn't suppose to do anything to the ncaa tournament.

In his second year he led a team that was suppose to be an early exit to the final 4.

In his first season with the Heat he led a team that everyone counted out to the second round of the playoffs to game 6.

This season he is leading the Heat along with his running mate Shaq to one of the best Heat seasons ever.

But no, Dwyane Wade isn't as important to his team, its all because Wade has a good team, not that Wade isn't a huge reason for the Heats sucess. Ask Kobe how good it is with Wade's teammates of last year. Dwyane Wade makes his teams good unlike Iverson.

Allen Iverson can put up great stats all he wants, but because he needs the ball in his hands for so much to get those stats it hurts his teams, unlike Dwyane Wade who doesn't need the ball in his hands nonstop to get his stats.

Yeah, flavor of the month.....I've been supporting Wade before you even heard of him.


----------



## Ps!ence_Fiction (Aug 1, 2004)

sloth said:


> Dwyane Wade in his first basketball year at Marquette led a team that wasn't suppose to do anything to the ncaa tournament.
> 
> In his second year he led a team that was suppose to be an early exit to the final 4.
> 
> ...


Woah....since when does Iverson not make his team good?

I think it is absolutely astounding that people believe that Wade is better than Iverson. Watch a Sixers game every once in a while


----------



## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

sloth said:


> Dwyane Wade in his first basketball year at Marquette led a team that wasn't suppose to do anything to the ncaa tournament.
> 
> In his second year he led a team that was suppose to be an early exit to the final 4.
> 
> ...


blah blah blah... without Shaq, Wade is a 16ppg scorer and his team has no chance of winning a title. Wade is just riding that big old diesel. Substitute Wade w/ any top guard and you'd get the same results. 

(sound familiar?)


----------



## G-Force (Jan 4, 2005)

IV said:


> MVP's lead their teams to wins. Iverson is scratching to make the playoffs, that's why he's not going to be the MVP. He wont even finish top 3.


Exactly. A league MVP does not play for a team that just barely makes the playoffs. I am not one of the many who are infatuated with AI. He plays the passing lanes rather than his opponent; that is why he gets so many steals. His average number of missed shots per games is higher than most players attempted shots per game. AI also gets a lot of BS fouls called in his favor, taking away shot attempts which would further lower his shooting percentage. This results in him getting an awful lot of free throws. Don't get me started on his turnovers. Yes, he scores 30 per game and gives out eight assists, but he is not particularly efficient at scoring.

Put him on a team that wins consistently and has the potential to go deep into the playoffs, then we'll consider him as a legitimate league MVP.

G-Force


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

sloth said:


> Dwyane Wade in his first basketball year at Marquette led a team that wasn't suppose to do anything to the ncaa tournament.
> 
> In his second year he led a team that was suppose to be an early exit to the final 4.
> 
> ...


 Well "Sloth", I guess Iverson not making his team full of rag-tag role players and overpaid scrubs good enough to get to the Finals and actually beat LA in LA isn't good enough for you is it ? Iverson's been doing it for years, not only putting up stats but making his team a force as long as he's had decent talent at his side. Take a look at his career and you'll see that as good as Wade is now, he still has a long way to go before he can reach Iverson's level.


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

G-Force said:


> Exactly. A league MVP does not play for a team that just barely makes the playoffs. I am not one of the many who are infatuated with AI. He plays the passing lanes rather than his opponent; that is why he gets so many steals. His average number of missed shots per games is higher than most players attempted shots per game. AI also gets a lot of BS fouls called in his favor, taking away shot attempts which would further lower his shooting percentage. This results in him getting an awful lot of free throws. Don't get me started on his turnovers. Yes, he scores 30 per game and gives out eight assists, but he is not particularly efficient at scoring.
> 
> Put him on a team that wins consistently and has the potential to go deep into the playoffs, then we'll consider him as a legitimate league MVP.
> 
> G-Force


 Have you people ever noticed that one of the reasons why players find it difficult backing Iverson down is because he has great lateral speed and that cuts off room for a quick drop step and spin ? How often have you seen players blow past him ? Exactly. Since when is playing the passing lanes a bad thing on top of being a great man to man and team defender ? Philly leads the league in opponent turnovers and that's because of all the steals Iverson and company engineer. Sure he gets turnovers and that's one of the knocks I have on him as well and he take s alot of unnecessary jumpers at times. A lot of those "BS" calls are because of the new perimeter defense rules that are enforced and its only fair if the league is going to let teams zone out slashers. Who wants to see more people be like Tim Thomas and sit around the perimeter all day jacking up jumper after jumper ? Not me. I like how they've balanced out the system with the new rules. Just because defenders can't keep up with AI's moves and his first step doesn't mean that they can grab on indiscriminately. You make it sound as if every call Iverson gets is crap when really most of them are perfectly legitamate. If you watch Sixers games, you'll see that a lot of the times when he gets manhandled in the lane, refs don't ever touch their whistles. This of course is understandable because if refs went by the textbook in every game and the zone was disallowed, then entire teams would be fouled out within 3 quarters if Iverson chose to slash all night. In the end everything balances out. Refs miss calls, and sometimes AI does a great acting job and gets away with it. I can see where you're coming from, especially if you hate Iverson and the Sixers, because it can be very frustrating for your team's guys to get into foul trouble because of AI. Yet you can't just label everything he does as BS. He's a tremendous scorer, inefficient at times, but has hit more big shots than 99% of the league. He's a great leader,especially this year and plays with more heart than anyone. He turns it over a lot, but creates a lot of turnovers for the guy he's defending ( another reason why it's absurd that you say he's not a good defender). Incidently, Magic also used to lead the league in turnovers, although I'm not saying that Iverson is anywhere near the player Magic was ( My dad would die laughing if I ever mentioned the two together) because he's not. I'm just putting things in perspective, that if you're going to have the ball in your hands most of the time, chances are you'll be the one turning it over. There is no superstar that hustles anywhere near as much as Iverson and if you can't appreciate that, then that's regretful.


----------



## G-Force (Jan 4, 2005)

I'll admit that I do not watch him every night. I just know that when he comes to Seattle, I am going to get very disgusted at the officiating. But then inconsistent officiating and favoritism are a couple of my biggest criticisms of the NBA. 

I did not say that I hate AI or the Sixers, merely that I am not a fan of his. There are already plenty of people who idolize him. I also did not say that everything he does is BS. I provided my perspective to balance the view of some people that AI is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Yes, he is an exciting prolific scorer and he puts fans in the seats. He does some pretty amazing things on the court and can take over a game. But this year he is not someone that I would consider to be a leading MVP candidate.

G-Force


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Yeah AI had a nice game in an important game.
> But did you stick around and see Lebron's game in a similiarly important game?
> The put him at PG and he ripped Dallas a new one. The crowd was chanting M-V-P, M-V-P...
> 
> ...


Just pittyfull, fruity... pittyfull!! :nonono:


----------



## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

[ Edit ]


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

So now all of a sudden Iverson plays with rag toy?

Some things I have heard on this board is how Samuel Dalembert is better then Eddy Curry and that Andre Iguodala is the best rookie. Rag Dolls? no! Chris Webber, Iggy, Dalembert, Korver. Sure no help, maybe its because Iverson needs the ball in his hands so f'n much to get his stats that the team ends up living and dying with Iverson rather then playing a more complete team game.


----------



## Ps!ence_Fiction (Aug 1, 2004)

sloth said:


> So now all of a sudden Iverson plays with rag toy?
> 
> Some things I have heard on this board is how Samuel Dalembert is better then Eddy Curry and that Andre Iguodala is the best rookie. Rag Dolls? no! Chris Webber, Iggy, Dalembert, Korver. Sure no help, maybe its because Iverson needs the ball in his hands so f'n much to get his stats that the team ends up living and dying with Iverson rather then playing a more complete team game.


*1)*Samuel Dalembert doesn't get a lot of minutes because Obie doesn't like him and at times can be foul prone.

*2)*Andre Iguodala is not the best rookie, at least not yet. He could end up being the best in the class, but right now, he isn't the best. He's a tremendous defender and a very good passer, but is still inconsistent on offense. At times he will step up and play aggressive, but a lot of the time he defers to Iverson (and now Webber) and he has yet to develop that killer instinct on offense.

*3)*Chris Webber just got in Philly and he is just learning the system now. He still has yet to really gel with Iverson. He should have even be mentioned because he hasn't been with this team long enough.

*4)*As for your team game idea, would a team of:

PG - Allen Iverson
SG - Andre Iguodala
SF - Kyle Korver
PF - Corliss Williamson
C - Marc Jackson

really be that great if they ran a team oriented game? These are basically the players that have got the most opportunities all year. Kenny Thomas was in the doghouse, Sammy is in the doghouse, Johnny Salmons is in the doghouse, Willie Green is in the doghouse....They don't have a great team, especially offensively. Kyle Korver is probably there best offensive plyaer outside of Iverson, but he isn't really a guy you want to be your second option. (I'm excluding Webber because he just got here). I have to agree that if the Sixers got rid of Iverson, they would rival the Hawks for the worst record, look at what there team would be

PG - Willie Green (who isn't really a point guard, their only real point guard is Kevin Ollie)
SG - Andre Iguodala
SF - Kyle Korver
PF - Kenny Thomas
C - Samuel Dalembert

That isn't much to speak of, their leading scorers would be Willie Green and Kyle Korver. I would say that KThomas would be the leading scorer, but he wouldn't play as much because like I said, Corliss Williamson gets more burn then him. Just imagine how bad this team would look without Iverson and Corliss and Marc Jackson playing the heavy front court minutes.

*5)*Tell me the truth, how much do you really hate Iverson? You make him seem like a greedy stat-hog, when he is far from that. Hate Iverson all you want, thats your choice, but hate him for what he is, don't decieve yourself and make him out to be something he isn't.



> You'll never learn.


So do you think Wade is better or not? If you do, I think it's you that won't learn.


----------



## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

sloth said:


> So now all of a sudden Iverson plays with rag toy?


Well, the original poster said 



> Well "Sloth", I guess Iverson not making his team full of rag-tag role players and overpaid scrubs good enough to get to the Finals and actually beat LA in LA isn't good enough for you is it ?


And by 'ragtoys' he meant having Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, Raja Bell and some other scrubs who just stepped up as a supporting cast.


----------



## kg_mvp03-04 (Jul 24, 2003)

There is no way in hell that Wade is better than Iverson, Shaq is better than all of the other 6ers besides AI and Cwebb. The thing is Cwebb is not the webber of old and seems to be doing nothing now. Wade is a good player but he is being vastly overrated now. AI has been to the finals is going to win the scoring title this year, he has lead his team to the playoffs so many times with minimal help. The reason Odom, butler and grant are playing like crap in LA is because of Kobe. Kobe is my favourite player but i can see that he is not a good fit with Odom. Odom was the one who carried the heat last year not wade to the playoffs.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

sloth said:


> So now all of a sudden Iverson plays with rag toy?
> 
> Some things I have heard on this board is how Samuel Dalembert is better then Eddy Curry and that Andre Iguodala is the best rookie. Rag Dolls? no! Chris Webber, Iggy, Dalembert, Korver. Sure no help, maybe its because Iverson needs the ball in his hands so f'n much to get his stats that the team ends up living and dying with Iverson rather then playing a more complete team game.


Exactly. I can't remember where I saw it, but it was a stat that showed how much a player is controlling the ball. Iverson has the ball in his hands more than any other player in the league, and it isn't even close. You have to think that even when replacing good players with better players, it won't make as much difference if Iverson is controlling the ball that much. 

I'm one of the few people on this site that defend prime players and try to see rookies for what they are and not for what they could be, but Dwyane Wade is better than Allen Iverson, point blank. 

Wade is a much better defender, without question. The tricky parts come with the scoring and passing. Wade is a more efficient scorer that scores 24 points per game within his teams offense, on 48% from the field. Iverson averages 30 points on 42% from the field, and completely paralyzes his team in the process in the way he gets his points. He dominates the ball. If Wade was given free reign to do what Iverson does, he could score 30 on a bad percentage too. 

Then with passing, people think Iverson is a good passer because of his assist numbers, but anyone dominating the ball that much is going to rack up 7 assists per game. Wade averages 1 less, and the ball isn't in his hands constantly to have the opportunity. 

Put Wade in the same situation as Iverson, and he would do the same things, only better. Of course, Dwyane Wade isn't a selfish player, so he would rather play more of a team game and have the team flourish. Philly would be a better team with Wade in place of Iverson, because Wade would allow guys like Iguodala, Korver and Webber to do their thing while still being Dwyane Wade. Of course, if this happened, people would claim Wade has this great supporting cast that Iverson has never had in his career. It's a viscious cycle. 

This is why Iverson is the most overrated player in the league right now. He dominates the ball so much that he is bound to put up great stats, and since he dominates the ball, his teammates come out looking bad in the boxscores, so everyone figures that Iverson just needs a supporting cast. But as long as Philidelphia's management continues to give Iverson free reign to do what he wants, people will continue to rave about Iverson's stats while the 76ers stay mediocre and Iverson fans continue to claim he just needs a better supporting cast.


----------



## kg_mvp03-04 (Jul 24, 2003)

Iverson with shaq=championship, Dwade with Philly=no playoffs. Sorry but Wade is shooting a higher percentage because he does not get as much attention because people need to worry about Shaq. Iverson has shown in the olympics and other games that he is willing to defer if his teammates are good enough, Cwebb just missess too many damn shots, Igoudala gets so many alley ooops from AI how else do you think anyone even knows him. Wade is playing next to shaq who has won games everywhere he has gone and made the guards he plays with look like superstars.


----------



## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

kg_mvp03-04 said:


> Iverson with shaq=championship, Dwade with Philly=no playoffs. Sorry but Wade is shooting a higher percentage because he does not get as much attention because people need to worry about Shaq.


Then why did Wade as a rookie shoot 46% last season? AI btw has a career shooting % of 41 %. 



> Iverson has shown in the olympics and other games that he is willing to defer if his teammates are good enough,


 And the result of his leadership? 



> Cwebb just missess too many damn shots


, AI shoots 41 % for his career, he has missed his share of shots too.




> Wade is playing next to shaq who has won games everywhere he has gone and made the guards he plays with look like superstars.


 Wade is far from just looking like a Superstar. 


MVP= Most *Valuable* Player

Where is the value is Philly? They have the 4th highest payroll in the NBA and they have a sub .500 record , AI is shooting 41%, is that value?


----------



## G-Force (Jan 4, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Exactly. I can't remember where I saw it, but it was a stat that showed how much a player is controlling the ball. Iverson has the ball in his hands more than any other player in the league, and it isn't even close. You have to think that even when replacing good players with better players, it won't make as much difference if Iverson is controlling the ball that much.
> 
> I'm one of the few people on this site that defend prime players and try to see rookies for what they are and not for what they could be, but Dwyane Wade is better than Allen Iverson, point blank.
> 
> ...


Very well written response. :greatjob:


----------



## Ps!ence_Fiction (Aug 1, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Exactly. I can't remember where I saw it, but it was a stat that showed how much a player is controlling the ball. Iverson has the ball in his hands more than any other player in the league, and it isn't even close. You have to think that even when replacing good players with better players, it won't make as much difference if Iverson is controlling the ball that much.


Iverson is always controlling the ball because he is the only real scoring threat on the team, and has been for the past 9 years. Yes he does dominate the ball, but that isn't a bad thing unless you do what Steve Francis does, dribble until the end of the shot clock and jack up a bad shot. Actually can you bring that back up, the stats, because I don't think he was as far ahead as you claim, it was only 2 minutes more I think. So you think that if the Sixers got a much better supporting cast, that the Sixers would still be bad because Iverson dominates the ball? Have you watched the Olympics or any all-star games? Whenever Iverson has talent around him, he always gets them involved.



> I'm one of the few people on this site that defend prime players and try to see rookies for what they are and not for what they could be, but Dwyane Wade is better than Allen Iverson, point blank.


I see rookies for what they are, I defend prime players, a lot of people do. I'm sure most of them will agree with me when I say Iverson is better then Wade, point blank.



> Wade is a much better defender, without question. The tricky parts come with the scoring and passing. Wade is a more efficient scorer that scores 24 points per game within his teams offense, on 48% from the field. Iverson averages 30 points on 42% from the field, and completely paralyzes his team in the process in the way he gets his points. He dominates the ball. If Wade was given free reign to do what Iverson does, he could score 30 on a bad percentage too.


Iverson paralyzes the team with his scoring? Who do you expect to score on the Sixers, Marc Jackson? Iverson is the only real scoring threat the Sixers have. He has to put up those points or the Sixers lose. The Sixers are 10-6 when Iverson scores 35 or more, and 16-21 when he scores under 30. Put Iverson in Wade's position and I bet he can shoot close to 48% as well because he won't recieve as much attention because he has Shaq in the middle. Put Wade in Iverson's position and his shooting percentage will decrease because all of the attention will be on him.



> Then with passing, people think Iverson is a good passer because of his assist numbers, but anyone dominating the ball that much is going to rack up 7 assists per game. Wade averages 1 less, and the ball isn't in his hands constantly to have the opportunity.


Wade also has much more talent on his team to pass to, not to mention Shaq who he probably gets most of his assists from. Iverson is a great and underrated passer. He will pass, and will make difficult passes, but only if there is talent to pass to. I don't think anyone could average 8 apg in Iverson's position except for a select few.



> Put Wade in the same situation as Iverson, and he would do the same things, only better. Of course, Dwyane Wade isn't a selfish player, so he would rather play more of a team game and have the team flourish. Philly would be a better team with Wade in place of Iverson, because Wade would allow guys like Iguodala, Korver and Webber to do their thing while still being Dwyane Wade. Of course, if this happened, people would claim Wade has this great supporting cast that Iverson has never had in his career. It's a viscious cycle.


So if you put Wade on the Sixers, he would do the same as Iverson only better? Give me a break. Iverson is not selfish, and I'm sure that Wade would learn after one season with the Sixers he's going to have to put up more shots and pass less, because there is no other scorer on the Sixers. Korver can't do anything without a player to get attention away from him, like Iverson. Iverson always finds Korver open, always. Korver can't score on his own. Iguodala still doesn't have the most complete offensive game, though it is getting better, it isn't that superb yet. Iverson always gets Iguodala on the break, or when he is open, or for an alley-oop in the half-court offense. Also, Webber can't do much anymore. His knee is really bad and it is hard for him to get points on his own. Iverson is good at finding Webber for the open jump-shot, problem is, Webber couldn't really hit them at first.



> This is why Iverson is the most overrated player in the league right now. He dominates the ball so much that he is bound to put up great stats, and since he dominates the ball, his teammates come out looking bad in the boxscores, so everyone figures that Iverson just needs a supporting cast. But as long as Philidelphia's management continues to give Iverson free reign to do what he wants, people will continue to rave about Iverson's stats while the 76ers stay mediocre and Iverson fans continue to claim he just needs a better supporting cast.


Iverson, overrated? How? Because he is taking a sub-par team to teh playoffs? Because he took a sub-par team to the NBA Finals? His teammates come out looking bad in the boxscores because they generally are pretty bad offensively. All he does need is a supporting cast, its amazing what he has done with the one he has. Take Iverson off the Sixers, and they become the Hawks. Do you think Dwyane Wade could take the Atlanta Hawks to the NBA Playoffs?


----------



## Junior21 (Jun 26, 2004)

madskillz1_99 said:


> Wade is better than AI!? at _basketball_? :rofl:
> 
> Damn you punk kids, no respect I tell ya, you're all so excited over the newest flavor of the month that you come out and make these ridiculous claims. tsk tsk...



I think Wade is the better team player. I'd rather take Wade, he is playing better all around basketball right now. AI has alot of talent, but isn't making his teammates better like Wade is. I really on't think AI could co-exist with Shaq. Really, AI is a bigger ball hog than Kobe. i'll take Wade.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

they both shot 38% in the olympics, fwiw.


----------



## Ps!ence_Fiction (Aug 1, 2004)

This was in another one of the threads, but I thought it was relevant here:

LINK #1 
Only 3 players are minus when Iverson is on, while 7 are plus.

LINK #2 
I found this especially interesting:



> One thing is for sure, in Philly it's all about Iverson. Five of the top thirty-two most dependent players are Sixers getting the ball from A.I. -- and new arrival Webber is already "fitting in" to the program by depending heavily on a feed from the main man.


These Sixers need Iverson to feed them or they won't score a lot.


----------



## Ps!ence_Fiction (Aug 1, 2004)

Junior21 said:


> I think Wade is the better team player. I'd rather take Wade, he is playing better all around basketball right now. AI has alot of talent, but isn't making his teammates better like Wade is. I really on't think AI could co-exist with Shaq. Really, AI is a bigger ball hog than Kobe. i'll take Wade.


Well who do you expect to dominate the ball in Philly outside of Iverson? Iverson would play great with Shaq, Iverson refers to Shaq as the greatest player to every play, he would pass him the ball as many times as possible.


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Here are some stats.
*
Did you know..... *

The 76ers are -0.5 when Iverson is on the court.

Iverson has the ball in his hands more then half of the time.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Ps!ence_Fiction said:


> Iverson is always controlling the ball because he is the only real scoring threat on the team, and has been for the past 9 years. Yes he does dominate the ball, but that isn't a bad thing unless you do what Steve Francis does, dribble until the end of the shot clock and jack up a bad shot. Actually can you bring that back up, the stats, because I don't think he was as far ahead as you claim, it was only 2 minutes more I think. So you think that if the Sixers got a much better supporting cast, that the Sixers would still be bad because Iverson dominates the ball? Have you watched the Olympics or any all-star games? Whenever Iverson has talent around him, he always gets them involved.


Chris Webber and Kyle Korver are very good offensive players, in very different ways too. That stat I mentioned earlier about Iverson controlling the ball, Chris Webber was one of the tops in the league too, except when he went to Philly, he dropped drastically while Iverson stayed about the same. Everyone said Webber would be a perfect fit, yet all of his numbers are down significantly since joining the team. It's because he doesn't see the ball as much, even though the team he was traded from was significantly better than the 76ers. 



Ps!ence_Fiction said:


> The Sixers are 10-6 when Iverson scores 35 or more, and 16-21 when he scores under 30.


The Sixers are worse when Iverson scores less than 30 because he still shoots 20+ shots regardless. So he scores less than 30, it was probably a horrible shooting night even for him, so he completely shot his team out of the game. If he scores more than 30, than he is probably shooting well and the 76ers have a decent shot at winning the game. The 76ers live and die with Iverson, but in most cases, they die with Iverson. 



Ps!ence_Fiction said:


> Wade also has much more talent on his team to pass to, not to mention Shaq who he probably gets most of his assists from. Iverson is a great and underrated passer. He will pass, and will make difficult passes, but only if there is talent to pass to. I don't think anyone could average 8 apg in Iverson's position except for a select few.


Controlling the ball more than any other player in the league by far is a bigger factor in getting assists than having one great post player. 



Ps!ence_Fiction said:


> So if you put Wade on the Sixers, he would do the same as Iverson only better? Give me a break. Iverson is not selfish, and I'm sure that Wade would learn after one season with the Sixers he's going to have to put up more shots and pass less, because there is no other scorer on the Sixers. Korver can't do anything without a player to get attention away from him, like Iverson. Iverson always finds Korver open, always. Korver can't score on his own. Iguodala still doesn't have the most complete offensive game, though it is getting better, it isn't that superb yet. Iverson always gets Iguodala on the break, or when he is open, or for an alley-oop in the half-court offense. Also, Webber can't do much anymore. His knee is really bad and it is hard for him to get points on his own. Iverson is good at finding Webber for the open jump-shot, problem is, Webber couldn't really hit them at first.


Korver is one of the best shooters in the league, he is Peja-light. Webber was having a great season before he came to the Kings. Get the ball out of Iversons hands more often, run screens for Korver, get Webber in the high post. Iguodala is a good ball handler, let him handle the ball while Iverson works off the ball. These are the things the Sixers need to do more often. With Wade, you'd see a lot more team basketball from the Sixers, because he wouldn't insist on always having the ball and jacking up difficult shots where an occasional one goes in and all of the sudden Iverson is so amazing. 

sloth nailed it. We had people saying Dalembert was better than both Curry and Chandler, that Iguodala is the best rookie, that Chris Webber was an all star, Kyle Korver is a sharpshooter. This is atleast a good supporting cast. A player like Kobe or McGrady would be leading this team to a top 4 seed. 

A bad supporting cast is what McGrady had on the Magic. *That* was bad, he would have killed for a player like Iguodala, Korver, Webber or Dalembert.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Junior21 said:


> I think Wade is the better team player.



You might think that because he plays on the better team? :whoknows:


----------



## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Junior21 said:


> I think Wade is the better team player. I'd rather take Wade, he is playing better all around basketball right now. AI has alot of talent, but isn't making his teammates better like Wade is. I really on't think AI could co-exist with Shaq. Really, AI is a bigger ball hog than Kobe. i'll take Wade.


Actually Wade's teammates are making him better (especially one very large teammate), you've got it backwards.


----------



## Ps!ence_Fiction (Aug 1, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Chris Webber and Kyle Korver are very good offensive players, in very different ways too. That stat I mentioned earlier about Iverson controlling the ball, Chris Webber was one of the tops in the league too, except when he went to Philly, he dropped drastically while Iverson stayed about the same. Everyone said Webber would be a perfect fit, yet all of his numbers are down significantly since joining the team. It's because he doesn't see the ball as much, even though the team he was traded from was significantly better than the 76ers.


Not exactly. Chris Webber is a declining offensive player, and can't get a lot of points on his own anymore. Also, Kyle Korver is not a very good offensive player. He is a incredible shooter, but he can't create his own shot, and doesn't have the greatest ball-handling (thought it is improving and is much better then last year). Did you know that Jim O'Brien is encouraging Iverson to have the ball in his hands all of the time? Yes Iverson should give the ball to Webber a bit more, but its hard when almost no plays are ran with Webber being the passer. I expect that by next season when the Sixers have a new coach and both AI and Webb have had the offseason to gel, the Sixers will be a much better team.



> The Sixers are worse when Iverson scores less than 30 because he still shoots 20+ shots regardless. So he scores less than 30, it was probably a horrible shooting night even for him, so he completely shot his team out of the game. If he scores more than 30, than he is probably shooting well and the 76ers have a decent shot at winning the game. The 76ers live and die with Iverson, but in most cases, they die with Iverson.


Yes they live and die with Iverson, I won't deny that, but why do you say they mostly die with Iverson? Because he can't always do it alone? Also, how else would they live, with Iverson passing to Marc Jackson and Corliss Williamson? Now they have Webber who can take some of the load off of Iverson, but it probably isn't an easy transition, but what should we expect, they've been doing the same thing for the past nine years, his entire career. You expect him to learn how to play with another star right away. Give him the offseason, and if he doesn't change then, then you can talk ****.



> Controlling the ball more than any other player in the league by far is a bigger factor in getting assists than having one great post player.


So you think just about anyone who handles the ball as much as Iverson could get that many assists on the Sixers? Outside of Korver, all he can do for assists is feed Dalembert or Iggy for an oop, or hope Webber and Marc Jackson are hitting their shots.



> Korver is one of the best shooters in the league, he is Peja-light. Webber was having a great season before he came to the Kings. Get the ball out of Iversons hands more often, run screens for Korver, get Webber in the high post. Iguodala is a good ball handler, let him handle the ball while Iverson works off the ball. These are the things the Sixers need to do more often. With Wade, you'd see a lot more team basketball from the Sixers, because he wouldn't insist on always having the ball and jacking up difficult shots where an occasional one goes in and all of the sudden Iverson is so amazing.


Now that they have Webber, they could run a more team orientated offense, but 2 things have to happen first.

*1)* Jim O'Brien has to be fired because he doesn't like Webber and doesn't run a great offense (or defense for that matter).

*2)* The Sixers need the offseason to mesh with Webber, then we should start seeing some resluts and a more team-orientated Sixers club.

Yes if Wade was on the team, others would get more points, but that doesn't mean the Sixers would win. Iversons points carry the Sixers, and they would need Wade to score points or they would lose. They have no other reliable scorers on the team, so sure others could get more points, but they would probably lose because they would shooter a lower percentage because they don't have a lot of shooters, and don't have a lot of great slashers. Outside of Kyle Korver, Marc Jackson and Webber are their best shooters. Outside of Iverson, Iguodala is their only good slasher (Green doesn't play). They have no other offensive options that are reliable, so if they ran a more team orientated offense, they would probably struggle to score. Wade would learn that he needs to score, or the Sixers will lose. Also, of course if Wade was on the Sixers, he wouldn't have the ball in his hands all the time, or score like Iverson, because both years he's been in the league, he's had good teammates. Iverson has played 9 seasons without great teammates. (sorry if this is confusing, I'm dead tired)



> sloth nailed it. We had people saying Dalembert was better than both Curry and Chandler, that Iguodala is the best rookie, that Chris Webber was an all star, Kyle Korver is a sharpshooter. This is atleast a good supporting cast. A player like Kobe or McGrady would be leading this team to a top 4 seed.


I agree that Dalembert is better then them, but he can't play better if he's not playing. Obie prefers to play Marc Jackson over Dalembert, and as soon as he makes on mistake, he's out of the game for a while. Iguodala might be the best rookie (though I don't necessarily think he is, I'm just speaking to those who do), but that doesn't mean hes a great offensive rookie. Chris Webber did deserve to be an all-star, but its hard to adjust to a new system after being in one for 9 seasons, and during mid-season. Kyle Korver I'll agree with, he's a sharpshooter, but he isn't that great at anything else. Kobe has a more talented supporting cast then Iverson, and look where Kobe is. McGrady wouldn't carry this team to a top-4 seed either. 

I'm getting kicked off the computer so I have to wrap this up.


----------

