# Whats with the learning International Ball BS?



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

We really don't need to have these 3 year commitments, and bullcrap. We just needs players to grow some balls. Honestly, if the best players would just show up, we wouldn't need this bull****.

Give me a lineup of 

PG-Dwyane Wade/Gilbert Arenas
SG-Kobe Bryant/Tracy McGrady/Ray Allen
SF-Lebron James/Ron Artest
PF-Kevin Garnett/Elton Brand/Amare Stoudemire(Dwight Howard for Worlds cuz Amare's knee)
C- Tim Duncan/Shaquille O'neal

We don't need to learn some international bs, we just need to have the players grow some balls, and do it the American way with all the best players showing up, and just steamroll the hell out of the other countries.


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## DUKE>YOURMOM (Jul 23, 2006)

There are also different rules in international ball. For example, they have this thing called traveling. Our players don't know what that is, aren't used to it, and it puts them at a disadvantage.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

sloth is right. Though the reason they need a 3 year commitment is because the best players all pull out last second and we wind up sending a 2nd or 3rd tier squad to represent.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

DUKE>YOURMOM said:


> There are also different rules in international ball. For example, they have this thing called traveling. Our players don't know what that is, aren't used to it, and it puts them at a disadvantage.


Ding Ding. Not all players but some.


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## NJ+VC (Feb 8, 2005)

They need king of international ball

Vince Carter 

14ppg, 3.6rpg, 1.4apg, 1spg, 50% fg, 40-3point%


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

I do think the differences are significant. They play with a different ball. The games are ref'd differently. The trapezoid lanes have an effect on how and where big men position themselves. And some time to actually develop some team chemistry should help.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I see there are still pompous Americans who believe what happened in 04 was us losing rather then them winning. 

We shouldn't need commitments, but we have to get with the fact that we can no longer steamroll people, we're gonna have to bring *teams* to the olympics. Maybe if it comes here, we can afford to just put the all-star team out there, but not when we're playing by their rules, the game is just too different to adjust to in a month.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Learning the FIBA game hasn't been the major problem.The problem in the past has been in not fielding a cohesive team where everyone understood their role and what sort of system we were running.In Athens we had plenty of good players,but we didn't utilize them effectively because we were disorganized.It's the same as any other competition.Everyone needs to know what they are supposed to do or they can't really be expected to do it.You need an offense and players who are well suited to it.

It seems to me that the most important thing is have guards who can maximize the advantages we have by looking to attack in transition and pass the ball to guys where they have the best oppurtunity to score.Our players are much better athletically than any other team is going to be 1 through 12.I don't think anyone in the world is going to be able to bring in bench players of the caliber we can and we should press this advantage by playing at a racehorse pace and continuously bringing fresh players.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

_Dre_ said:


> We shouldn't need commitments, but we have to get with the fact that we can no longer steamroll people, we're gonna have to bring *teams* to the olympics.


The rest of the world is catching up, but they still have a ways to go. That lineup sloth posted would steamroll any country in the world, infact, it would steamroll a collection of the best players from every other country in the world outside of the USA. 

You get Kobe, Duncan, LeBron, Garnett, McGrady, Allen, Arenas, Wade, Brand and so forth on the same team and it's a wrap. No collection of players on the planet could compete with that unless you have a time machine. 

I like the commitment thing, but only because they are bringing a B or C squad, and they need chemistry to get it done. The talent alone isn't enough. The A squad you could throw on the floor the day of the game and watch them trample any team. Problem is, half of the team sloth posted has other issues, whether legal, marriage, injuries or they just lack the interest in playing for team USA because they've done it before.


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

The differences are massive. Yes, if the US send their absolute best team, they will probably wipe the floor with everyone else... but anything outside of that, they are massively vulnerable. The international game is hugely different, and any ignorance of that will see similar results at the World Championships that we saw in 2002 and 2004.

Anyone whos played a lot of basketball, knows that its almost preferable to have a guy in your face when you're shooting, than having them stand back (in a zone, which we see in FIBA play always), at least... if that's what you're used to. DWade was bricking horrendous shots that he would nail if he was isolated against his man 1-on-1 (see the Finals). This is just one example of the game being inherently different to NBA style.


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

There's all this talk of the "A-team" - but is it just me, or do the people who form the A-team just not wanna play in the Olympics? It's all very nice saying USA can put the best team out there - ut they can't, cos most of the players back out.

And the classic bigman doesn't work all that well in international competition.
The reason the "euro-big" stereotype is a jumpshooter, is that that is the most effective way to play in International competition. 
Bargnani n Dirk n all those dudes, they don't play Highpost-perimeter cos they're soft (well, that's ot the main reason) - they play there because it's the most effective position they played during their development, and it harnesses their skills.

The trapezoid lane's a bugger too, although fast players can exploit the extra slashing opportunities it creates (as the D is stretched more).


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## CrackerJack (Jul 2, 2005)

itll never be possible to get the best players playing at the same time so you just need to put the best you can which should beat the international all-stars and well last time USA chose the best players they could find they placed 3rd in the olympics, its not all about chucking the biggest egos on court its just about putting out the best coheesive unit. its basic maths, big egos+no cohesion = no gold


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

CrackerJack said:


> itll never be possible to get the best players playing at the same time so you just need to put the best you can which should beat the international all-stars and well last time USA chose the best players they could find they placed 3rd in the olympics, its not all about chucking the biggest egos on court its just about putting out the best coheesive unit. its basic maths, big egos+no cohesion = no gold


I think we could win by just throwing out the best players that want to play and going over to the Worlds, than go over to the Olympics and win. I'm going to withhold judgement on the 04 olympics considereing we had one of the worst coaches in the NBA coaching that team, and everyone knows he doesn't know how to handle talented players, he is 0-2 when it comes to teams overwhelming in talent.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

You DO know why they assembled a team like this, right?

Because all of the overpaid, snob A-grade stars don't want to play for team USA. Too bad they lack pride in where they live enough to not represent it in a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

There's proof that money IS everything to almost everyone.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> The rest of the world is catching up, but they still have a ways to go. That lineup sloth posted would steamroll any country in the world, infact, it would steamroll a collection of the best players from every other country in the world outside of the USA.


Even still, that's a team. It might not look like it because of the names on there, but all of those players are basically pinnacles of elements needed to make a team. You need a scorer ? Kobe's the guy. You need instant offense off the bench? Arenas can do that. You need rebounding? Dwight Howard can do that. 

Most of those guys form a good team actually, but even still a commitment is needed with that team. When you get guys all used to being number one, they need some time to figure out their place on this team. Either way you go, the U.S. has to change it's philosophy. 

Either put a team that can work in that environment together, or make your all-stars commit to forming a team that can work in that environment.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Euro/international game is different from NBA, but not THAT much ... don't exagerates ... ok, we know that not few american sport-writers still talk about the "30 seconds shot-clock" and the "only 2 reefs" (*cough cough*, Europe changed to 24s and 3 reefs back in 2000 ... wake up), but c'mon ... basketball is basketball.

In Europe we play much man-to-man, not only zone defense ... 

The 3 shot line is at 6.25 meters (NBA 7.15 NCAA 6.00), but this should advantage NBA players ...


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

The International game is a game of H-O-R-S-E, only you are allowed to guard the outside shots. The art of jumpshooting and the midrange game waived bye bye to America long ago. We still have a few left, but its slowly becoming more run, jump, and dunk.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

sloth said:


> We really don't need to have these 3 year commitments, and bullcrap. We just needs players to grow some balls. Honestly, if the best players would just show up, we wouldn't need this bull****.
> 
> Give me a lineup of
> 
> ...


Yeah, let the best players embarrass themselves. This isn't 1992. Our guys need to know what's going on before they get out there and face actual _teams_ who know the international game inside out.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

I think it's pretty important to get guys into a training camp to get some good practice at attacking a zone. Most of the guys haven't really seen a good one since college, and the guys who didn't go to college probably hasn't seen a good one at all. It definately takes an adjustment.

It's also a good idea to get everybody caught with some of the more ridiculous rules of international basketball - like being able to clear shots off of the rim. We did a horrible job of taking advantage of that in Athens.


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## Black Mamba 24 (Jul 20, 2006)

Well I like Coach K's strategy. Use the superior American athleticism, by immedietly running fast breaks after grabbing the boards. The last team was just full of athletic people, and they were slowing the game down. Which didn't work for their personnel. But that didn't suprise me, because Larry Brown is a stubborn coach, and doesn't like to see what he has...and utilize their strengths, instead he makes them adapt to him. But that is beside the points. 

This team also seems to have better team defense, shooters, and a sense of cohesivness. I like our chances this time. But let's not forget, that while yes ... Olympics '04 was extremely dissapointing, the Summer '03 game went 7-0 and destroyed everyone. This is the team that had T-Mac, VC, etc. We still have the ability to dominate. We just have to be commited to it, and woek as a unit. I think Team USA from this point on, will be just fine.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Did someone actually suggest that we give Ron Artest a uniform that says USA on the front and let him loose on the world.I really don't care if he embarasses himself and the Indiana Pacers,but he will not ever,never get the chance to do anything remotely that stupid in the red,white and blue


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## Black Mamba 24 (Jul 20, 2006)

I wanted Ron in a USA jersey. Who says he is going to emberass the USA if he was put in it? I'm sure he would contain himself, it isn't like he is some monster or freak show. This is one of the same reasons that kept A.I. out of the jersey for so long. Ron should be there just like anyone else.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Black Mamba 24 said:


> I wanted Ron in a USA jersey. Who says he is going to emberass the USA if he was put in it? I'm sure he would contain himself, it isn't like he is some monster or freak show. This is one of the same reasons that kept A.I. out of the jersey for so long. Ron should be there just like anyone else.


You're not going to get crucified if you pick the crazy ******* and then it blows up in your face.There is zero reason to take a chance on him or give him a chance.Nobody is that good a basketball player.Our country has plenty of problems without him.


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## Black Mamba 24 (Jul 20, 2006)

Ron isn't that bad man. He'd also bring intangibles to the game. He would intimidate the hell out of foreign players. That was one of the key elements that has been missing from our team, post 2000 Olympics. No one is scared of the U.S.A. anymore. That intimidation factor, is what really helped us the entire time. When we chopse to bring in our pro players in 1992, and the legends that were there... the foreigners were AFRAID before the game even began. If you restore that, they can't get confident, or play their game. Ron is most definetely worth the risk, for that reason alone. It's why the Kings have risked their franchise on him, same reason why the great Larry Bird did. He has game, has a work ethic, can play with other star players, etc. All you got to do is learn to keep people like that in check. Give them freedom, but draw limits, and hold your ground. Phil Jackson was GREAT at this. And it also helped that MJ, the GOAT, Rodman would listen to. Ron is a HUGE Kobe fan, there is no doubt in my mind he would listen to Kobe. There is ways to keep him in check, he isn't a retard or a time bomb. Yes, he has done many a stupid thing in his day. But I'm sure he would realize the stakes and magnitude of the Olympics, and representing his country. Give him the benefit of the doubt, man.


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## lolac101 (Jun 23, 2005)

I dont think we need a updated version of vince carter's olympic performance on the team. Hard fouls and lots of pushing and shoving doesn't sound like a good idea. We have talent and that should be good enough. Let's have some sportsmanship here.


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## maradro (Aug 2, 2003)

ha. It must be difficult dealing with so many contradictions. I mean now Brand, Bron, Wade, Amare, Duncan are elite, but when they played- and lost- i guess they werent. larry Brown, a HOFer coach who was hired precisely because he was this genius purist of the game, is now crap. I guess you know more about basketball than Brown, Popovich, Karl, etc. I guess you think if you just threw together the best players you wouldnt need a coach?

You people have to come to terms with the fact that 
a) FIBA ball IS different
b) Other countries have improved and have much better organization for their teams
c) USA basketball puts together the roster, not other countries. The team you send is the team that competes, not whatever fantasy you have. When the lakers had the four HOFers everyone was ready to hand over the title and then they almost got swept by a star-less team. Same thing here- games arent played on paper. Its easy to say that a team that doesnt exist is unbeatable, sure, they never have and never will play a game: its hard to lose when you dont play.

and for the record i dont think that hypothetical lineup is invincible at all, not under FIBA rules, and especially if they just came off the plane and into the gym. Sure, you guys won a qualy tournament with the stars of the moment in 05, but that was meaningless, the good teams were already qualified and there was nothing to play for. When there was something to play for you had a different story

For the sake of argument, no NBA team could field teams like those of WC 02 or Olympics 04 because of the cap. On the otherhand, the better teams of those tournaments (SM, Argentina, Lithuania) have a handful of players in the NBA, and none of them has a max contract. If you still think its a matter of more talent, your blind.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

International ball does take some getting used to. The games are shorter, so you can't dally around, you have to play hard the entire game. The two refs, let a lot of contact go, and make it easier to get an offensive foul than get a blocked shot. The refs vary in quality widely, with none really being as good as the shiity NBA refs we all know and hate. The goal tending is called diffrently.

I can't be the only one waiting for Team USA to realize that as soon as the ball hits the rim, they can take off with it. It's absurd with our athleticism that we NEVER do this. The only way a team should be able to score on us in the half court is if they hit nothing but net. Any ball that touches the rim, our guys should be able to pull down. That's a huge rule diffrence, and USA has NEVER taken advantage of it.

As a team we never take advantage of the FIBA rules, we instead allow them to take advantage of us.

And we do need the 3 year committments. Players have bailed on us so often, and chemistry is the main reason, not per se the talent we've sent, that we haven't done well. We need to give these guys time to build a cohesive unit. Look at the NBA during preseason, that's the level that we have sent over there. We need to be sending our guys over there closer to a midseason form type team.

And the only way to do that is to give the players time with the system and with each other to learn each others tendencies.

Wade and Lebron are both awesome talents, but they need time to figure out how to play off one another.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

maradro said:


> ha. It must be difficult dealing with so many contradictions. I mean now Brand, Bron, Wade, Amare, Duncan are elite, but when they played- and lost- i guess they werent. larry Brown, a HOFer coach who was hired precisely because he was this genius purist of the game, is now crap. I guess you know more about basketball than Brown, Popovich, Karl, etc. I guess you think if you just threw together the best players you wouldnt need a coach?
> 
> You people have to come to terms with the fact that
> a) FIBA ball IS different
> ...



the last time was an aberration, simple as that. there is still a HUGE gap in talent between these "euro" stars and the ballers of the USA. you are sadly mistaken if you think the rest of the world even have a chance.


point differential will be close to the ones produced by the first two dream teams.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

maradro said:


> ha. It must be difficult dealing with so many contradictions. I mean now Brand, Bron, Wade, Amare, Duncan are elite, but when they played- and lost- i guess they werent. larry Brown, a HOFer coach who was hired precisely because he was this genius purist of the game, is now crap. I guess you know more about basketball than Brown, Popovich, Karl, etc. I guess you think if you just threw together the best players you wouldnt need a coach?
> 
> You people have to come to terms with the fact that
> a) FIBA ball IS different
> ...


Great post!


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

bootstrenf said:


> the last time was an aberration, simple as that. there is still a HUGE gap in talent between these "euro" stars and the ballers of the USA. you are sadly mistaken if you think the rest of the world even have a chance.


If the last time was an abberation, then what was the world championships before that? We haven't won anything internationally in the last 10 years. I think it's time to quit with the arrogance, and start having real talk.

Basketball isn't just about talent in a knockout tournament. Do you watch the NCAA tournament? Does the most talented team win all the time?

It's about having a good system which gives you the best chance to win, and being a little bit lucky.

You can't win these games anymore just on sheer talent. The rest of the world is too good. You have to play good basketball now to actually USE our talent.

We've never actually USED the talent we have. Usually all of our stars play below their level, because they don't know how to play with each other.

This time I think will be diffrent, but I think the looking down on the rest of the world in basketball needs to stop. Respect your opponents.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> If the last time was an abberation, then what was the world championships before that? We haven't won anything internationally in the last 10 years. I think it's time to quit with the arrogance, and start having real talk.
> 
> Basketball isn't just about talent in a knockout tournament. Do you watch the NCAA tournament? Does the most talented team win all the time?
> 
> ...


Couldn't agree more.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> If the last time was an abberation, then what was the world championships before that? We haven't won anything internationally in the last 10 years. I think it's time to quit with the arrogance, and start having real talk.
> 
> Basketball isn't just about talent in a knockout tournament. Do you watch the NCAA tournament? Does the most talented team win all the time?
> 
> ...


not looking down, only stating facts. 


respect? like how all the other teams were talking crap about our team after our losses? 


bottom line, this current team realizes what happened last time, and will not let it happen again.


how about a friendly wager? i will bet you 100,000,000 points that the usa will win the gold. i'll give you 2:1 odds. wager is offered to anyone.


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## Whack Arnolds (Dec 5, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> International ball does take some getting used to. The games are shorter, so you can't dally around, you have to play hard the entire game. The two refs, let a lot of contact go, and make it easier to get an offensive foul than get a blocked shot. The refs vary in quality widely, with none really being as good as the shiity NBA refs we all know and hate. The goal tending is called diffrently.
> 
> *I can't be the only one waiting for Team USA to realize that as soon as the ball hits the rim, they can take off with it. It's absurd with our athleticism that we NEVER do this. The only way a team should be able to score on us in the half court is if they hit nothing but net. Any ball that touches the rim, our guys should be able to pull down. That's a huge rule diffrence, and USA has NEVER taken advantage of it.*
> As a team we never take advantage of the FIBA rules, we instead allow them to take advantage of us.
> ...


Exactly. Good Post. I can't wait to see what a charging Chris Paul, with the uber athletic guys on the rim running along side him. Coach K knows what he is doing.


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## maradro (Aug 2, 2003)

if i had the points id take your bet. how about an avatar bet, if USA wins gold, Ill put a US flag as my avatar, and if it doesnt, you can put one of the team that does (for however long you want). 

anyways i think you understood me to say that the US doesnt have a huge talent gap. it does, especially one through 12. noone in their right mind will debate that, at the most we foreigners have one or two players just near your players' level. I personally have never heard foreign players diss the US, although fans have and will (probably even if they do win the gold). The only criticism I have heard from foreign players/teams is of the way you organize and select your team, which apparently you agree with since you think those teams lost because they weren't assembled properly.

I think this time USA basketball is taking a step in the right direction, but it takes some time to build a team and I think this roster is unexperienced and vulnerable. 

As an Argentine there is nothing I want more than the chance to beat you guys again, because it means that despite the talent difference we have the strategy and teamwork to overcome our physical and technical disadvantage. I mean really, if everybody thought US basketball sucked, no one would get excited at the prospect of beating them.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Did you look at the team I posted? That team has the works, its a collaboration of the best players plain and simple, plenty of shooters, good defenders, dominant big men. The other teams would lose huge. In the highlights, all you would see is the US dominating with the globetrotter music playing.

Honestly, we only have 5 of those 12 players going. My team would torch every team, if I rounded them all up, and brought them to the World Championships, gave them t-shirts as jerseys on the spot, blah blah blah, Gold Medal in 2008.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

sloth said:


> Did you look at the team I posted? That team has the works, its a collaboration of the best players plain and simple, plenty of shooters, good defenders, dominant big men. The other teams would lose huge. In the highlights, all you would see is the US dominating with the globetrotter music playing.
> 
> Honestly, we only have 5 of those 12 players going. My team would torch every team, if I rounded them all up, and brought them to the World Championships, gave them t-shirts as jerseys on the spot, blah blah blah, Gold Medal in 2008.


Sloth, I think the point that Maradro, Future and others are articulating is that sheer talent won't work forever. As I've said before, this isn't 1992. The rest of the world plays much better basketball now. So, even if you are correct that your super lineup would win it all, that's at best a short term fix. In 1992, our 2004 Olympic team would have won gold on the trot. In 2008, who knows.

We need to make a better effort to create a cohesive _team_ that has more time than in the past to practice together and learn the international rules. We'll never be as strong in that respect as many other nations, because our guys don't honestly believe that they should have to commit that much to an unpaid national team, but we need a group of guys who understand that it takes more than superior talent.

We've made some progress this year. Hopefully, we don't win in 2006 only to drop the ball again in 2008. Everyone has a short memory when they're overly confident.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

I agree that Coach K will get this team playing well.


Are the best players obligated to play for team USA? **** that bologne! The best players should not have to play. They are obligated to the NBA contracts and only those. We don't need the best players to win. All we need is 2nd or 3rd tier players who play as a team. You could probably throw a team of all-NBA bench players, get them to play as a cohesive unit, and they would do really well. It's all about the team concept!


bench players

Derek Fisher
Jerry Stackhouse
Chris Mihm
Marquis Daniels
Alonzo Mourning
Gary Payton
Antoine Walker
Ben Gordon
Shaun Livingston
Corey Maggette



That team would do good!


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## Nuzzo (Jul 11, 2005)

compsciguy78 said:


> Derek Fisher
> Jerry Stackhouse
> Chris Mihm
> Marquis Daniels
> ...


That team will be torched by 20 avery game.

USA when they send best players(92;96;00;03)- 34-0


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

compsciguy78 said:


> I agree that Coach K will get this team playing well.
> 
> 
> Are the best players obligated to play for team USA? **** that bologne! The best players should not have to play. They are obligated to the NBA contracts and only those. We don't need the best players to win. All we need is 2nd or 3rd tier players who play as a team. You could probably throw a team of all-NBA bench players, get them to play as a cohesive unit, and they would do really well. It's all about the team concept!
> ...



good point.


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## maradro (Aug 2, 2003)

So now a team of roleplayers is enough to win? 
What about the bet? 

The lineup you posted, Sloth, has one true shooter, everyone else is hot and cold and in single elimination thats no sure thing. Defense wise you only really have Artest, KG, and Duncan, if one gets into foul trouble (only 5 to give) you could get into trouble. Shaq isnt what he used to be and the slashers could have a hard time with the zone and carrying (as happened to Lebron in 04). So while they do have a huge talent gap, I dont think they have anything guaranteed. 

Also, you said only 5 of the 12 were there last time, well last I checked basketball is 5 on 5, if the talent difference is so big why werent 5 enough? Did Argentina's bench players beat USA's bench players? 

I dont think so.

Anyways enough speculation, let the games begin


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

maradro said:


> So now a team of roleplayers is enough to win?
> What about the bet?
> 
> The lineup you posted, Sloth, has one true shooter, everyone else is hot and cold and in single elimination thats no sure thing. Defense wise you only really have Artest, KG, and Duncan, if one gets into foul trouble (only 5 to give) you could get into trouble. Shaq isnt what he used to be and the slashers could have a hard time with the zone and carrying (as happened to Lebron in 04). So while they do have a huge talent gap, I dont think they have anything guaranteed.
> ...



of course i'll take it.


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## maradro (Aug 2, 2003)

ok we're set.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

maradro said:


> So now a team of roleplayers is enough to win?
> What about the bet?
> 
> The lineup you posted, Sloth, has one true shooter, everyone else is hot and cold and in single elimination thats no sure thing. Defense wise you only really have Artest, KG, and Duncan, if one gets into foul trouble (only 5 to give) you could get into trouble. Shaq isnt what he used to be and the slashers could have a hard time with the zone and carrying (as happened to Lebron in 04). So while they do have a huge talent gap, I dont think they have anything guaranteed.
> ...


Yeah, but Lebron and Wade both weren't the players they were today, Brand is just solid, and Amare was with Lebron in the doghouse. Duncan was the only player I would have considered in the NBA elite from that years team. Kobe, Garnett, Shaq, T-Mac, are all upgrades, same with Ray Allen, Lebron and Wade are both better now....


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