# ESPN: Charlie Villanueva traded for TJ Ford



## nybullsfan (Aug 12, 2005)

*villiaueva traded for ford*

just announced on espn yall


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

*Re: villiaueva traded for ford*

Milwaukee wins in that trade.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Semi OT: *Raps Trade Charlie V. to Bucks for TJ Ford**

*breaking news on ESPN news just now...details to follow.*


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: villiaueva traded for ford*



step said:


> Milwaukee wins in that trade.


Agreed.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

*Re: villiaueva traded for ford*

So now Toronto gets both their prospects from the 03 draft they wanted. Makes sense now, Bargnani's a starter now I assume?


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## Bulls rock your socks (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: villiaueva traded for ford*

damn really


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

*Re: villiaueva traded for ford*

Ford is so much better than CV.....

PGs like Ford are rare, there is only Chris Paul that is better among young PGs. Talented forward tweeners like Villanueva are dime a dozen.


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

well toronto now has their point guard.


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

its obvious now that phoniex is going to go with the up and down offense just like phoniex. TJ Ford is that up and down point guard.


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## nybullsfan (Aug 12, 2005)

i would not say bucks win in this trade ford like someone else stated is a very rare breed of pass first pg's it will be harder to replace compared to finding a explosive sf/pf combo


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

*Re: villiaueva traded for ford*

Interesting part is, what does Bosh think of this?


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## Blazer Freak (Jul 11, 2004)

Don't see it on ESPN.com yet.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

*Re: villiaueva traded for ford*



Amareca said:


> Ford is so much better than CV.....
> 
> PGs like Ford are rare, there is only Chris Paul that is better among young PGs. Talented forward tweeners like Villanueva are dime a dozen.


Villanueva is pretty skinny, but he's still 6'11. TJ Ford is 5'11, has an injury history, and is a poor shooter. All things being equal, you usually take the big guy.

I'm pretty surprised that Toronto didn't get more. Couldn't they have traded him for a draft pick and gotten Roy, or something? I would rather have Roy than Ford.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

11:15 pm ET Raptors news conference on espn news


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Man, Colangelo is a great general manager. 

TJ Ford dishing to Bosh and Bargnani is going to be sick. They completely solved their logjam at the power forward.


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## Bulls rock your socks (Jun 29, 2006)

yea i dont c it on espn yet or nba.com wtf there slow assses. so now whos the PG for milwaukee? there deff not making the playoffs next year and i bet michael redd is pissed


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

Bulls rock your socks said:


> yea i dont c it on espn yet or nba.com wtf there slow assses. so now whos the PG for milwaukee? there deff not making the playoffs next year and i bet michael redd is pissed


nba.com is one of the slowest websites if not the slowest to get breaking news. no point looking there for up to speed info on the nba.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: villiaueva traded for ford*



rwj333 said:


> Villanueva is pretty skinny, but he's still 6'11. TJ Ford is 5'11, has an injury history, and is a poor shooter. All things being equal, you usually take the big guy.


Ford will put your team on their heels in a hurry. He is not only one of the fastest and quickest, but he knows how to use it and runs a fast break better than almost any point guard in the NBA. He is a great ball handler and decision maker. 

With Bosh and Bargnani being able to play uptempo basketball, Ford will thrive. I thought the Bucks played too slow for Ford because Redd, Simmons, Bogut and Magloire are all primarily halfcourt players.


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

I'm sorry, but what the **** were the Bucks thinking here?


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## The Future7 (Feb 24, 2005)

Raptors are looking pretty good. They may be solid.


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## Bulls rock your socks (Jun 29, 2006)

yea i just saw it on espn hmmm i wonder if the bucks are gunna trade agian. trade jamal magilore in that supposed allen iverson trade with boston and another team


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

In any case, it looks like it's going to be an exciting offseason (if that's possible). Teams were really active in the draft and it looks like there will be plenty of trades and guys changing teams.


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## Bulls rock your socks (Jun 29, 2006)

hell yea i love it when theres trades its pretty xciting


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## nybullsfan (Aug 12, 2005)

now iam not suggesting we do this but anyone else think we got something bucks need now after this trade (duhon), and they may have something we want that i hear they want to get rid of (maglorie). just food for thought


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

*Re: villiaueva traded for ford*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Ford will put your team on their heels in a hurry. He is not only one of the fastest and quickest, but he knows how to use it and runs a fast break better than almost any point guard in the NBA. He is a great ball handler and decision maker.
> 
> With Bosh and Bargnani being able to play uptempo basketball, Ford will thrive. I thought the Bucks played too slow for Ford because Redd, Simmons, Bogut and Magloire are all primarily halfcourt players.


Whenever I watched Milwaukee, I wasn't impressed with Ford. But that's a good point that I hadn't considered. There's no guarantee that Toronto starts fastbreaking, though. 

I'm more excited at the thought of Villanueva and Bogut playing together.


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## StackAttack (Mar 15, 2006)

A very even trade. I'm leaning towards saying Toronto got the better end, not necessarily because they got the better player (all things considered, talent level's probably the same), but because because of this they have a more complete team.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Bucks already had Mo Williams who averaged 14 a game last year and was at times a better floor general than Ford, you win in this league with Big guys and Bogut and Charlie will be very very good for many years too come. This also means that Magloires days in milwaukee are officially over. They now have Bogut, Gadzuric, Charlie V, Joe Smith and Magloire at the 4 and the 5, One of them has to go.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: villiaueva traded for ford*



rwj333 said:


> There's no guarantee that Toronto starts fastbreaking, though.


I think with Colangelo, it's almost inevitable. He already has his athletic and talented frontcourt in Bosh and Bargnani who can both fill lanes on the break, and now he has the guy who will be running those breaks. I like to see teams moving in one direction, making progress towards an identity, instead of moving one step in several directions and ending up going nowhere. Seems like Colangelo knows exactly what he wants. 



rwj333 said:


> I'm more excited at the thought of Villanueva and Bogut playing together.


I like the trade for the Bucks too. They can move Bogut to the center full time where he belongs, and I think he and Charlie will play well off of each other. Charlie can score and Bogut is a gifted passing big man. It's almost got Divac and Webber written all over it, but I won't go that far.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

*Re: villiaueva traded for ford*

Maybe Bucks put in their bid for Cassell?


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## BullSoxChicagosFinest (Oct 22, 2005)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2506311


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

*Re: villiaueva traded for ford*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I think with Colangelo, it's almost inevitable. He already has his athletic and talented frontcourt in Bosh and Bargnani who can both fill lanes on the break, and now he has the guy who will be running those breaks. I like to see teams moving in one direction, making progress towards an identity, instead of moving one step in several directions and ending up going nowhere. Seems like Colangelo knows exactly what he wants.
> 
> 
> 
> I like the trade for the Bucks too. They can move Bogut to the center full time where he belongs, and I think he and Charlie will play well off of each other. Charlie can score and Bogut is a gifted passing big man. It's almost got Divac and Webber written all over it, but I won't go that far.


Yea the Bucks will be solid next year. Probably finish in the same spot (8 or 7) but they have a decent squad...

PG-Mo Williams
SG-Redd
SF-Bobby Simmons
PF-Villanueva
C-Bogut

They'll probably keep Charlie Bell and Dan Gadzuric around as well off the bench. Not a bad trade for either team. My guess is the Raps opening day lineup will look like...

PG-Ford
SG-Mo Pete
SF-Peja(???)
PF-Bosh
C-Nesterovic

with Calderon and Bargnani being the two principle guys off the bench.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: villiaueva traded for ford*

http://www.tsn.ca/nba/news_story/?ID=170150&hubname=


_*"We are sorry to see Charlie leave, but getting better comes at a cost," said Raptors president and general manager Bryan Colangelo in a statement.

"T.J. Ford's best attributes, quickness and playmaking, are a perfect fit for our team."*_


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

*Re: villiaueva traded for ford*



mizenkay said:


> http://www.tsn.ca/nba/news_story/?ID=170150&hubname=
> 
> 
> _*"We are sorry to see Charlie leave, but getting better comes at a cost," said Raptors president and general manager Bryan Colangelo in a statement.
> ...


From my vantage point, Colangelo is turning the Raps into the Eastern Conferencer version of the Suns. If T.J. Ford could shoot the ball he'd be right on track.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

DUMB trade..

no way would i have traded Charlie..and UP and coming GREAT scoring big for a kid that was ge ttin beat by MO WILLIAMS in the line up

DUMB


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

TJ Ford started 70 of 72 games this year.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> TJ Ford started 70 of 72 games this year.


Mo williams outplayed Ford a TON last year...which is why they found Ford expendable having Williams & Bell

The ONLY time the Bucks hurt the Bulls was when Mo was at the point.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

TJ was not the best point guard on the Bucks last year. He sometimes appeared to be afraid of contact. Understandable after his injury. 

The Bucks had been trying to trade Magliore and Harris said he'd been talking to a lot of teams.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Too bad Malgoire's lazy as hell...we could of used him here..

They'll move him too...

Bucks will be GOOD....they get to move Bogut to his natural position and get even MORE scoring


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

The ROY said:


> Too bad Malgoire's lazy as hell...we could of used him here..
> 
> They'll move him too...
> 
> Bucks will be GOOD....they get to move Bogut to his natural position and get even MORE scoring


As long as Stotts is coaching.............

Part of Magloire's downfall this year was the Bucks played a perimeter game. There'd be entire games where they'd never feed the ball into Bogut or Magloire - they got points from rebounds or in Bogut's case, hitting outside shots. You never knew which team would show up - the good team or the mediocre team. Strangely like the Bulls at times.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

The ROY said:


> Mo williams outplayed Ford a TON last year...which is why they found Ford expendable having Williams & Bell


The Bucks fell out of the playoffs for the year that Ford was out with the injury, and Maurice Williams started every game for them that year. I love the Bucks upgrade in the frontcourt, but their backcourt is in danger if Maurice Williams is going to be the full time point guard. 

Williams is not a starter. He is a bench player. He is one of those guys who will score 30 one night just because he is hot, but then will disappear for 5 games. Repeat cycle. 

This is a guy who played an average of 13 minutes per game in the Pistons series. He had one good game, and was missing in action for the others. Story of his career. Great guy to have off the bench, terrible guy to rely on to be your point guard night in and night out.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> The Bucks fell out of the playoffs for the year that Ford was out with the injury, and Maurice Williams started every game for them that year. I love the Bucks upgrade in the frontcourt, but their backcourt is in danger if Maurice Williams is going to be the full time point guard.
> 
> Williams is not a starter. He is a bench player. He is one of those guys who will score 30 one night just because he is hot, but then will disappear for 5 games. Repeat cycle.
> 
> This is a guy who played an average of 13 minutes per game in the Pistons series. He had one good game, and was missing in action for the others. Story of his career. Great guy to have off the bench, terrible guy to rely on to be your point guard night in and night out.


Charlie Bell may end up being the starter.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

I really like this trade for both teams. Toronto gets their PG and lightens up the worst guy at a position they had their best 3 players at PF (assuming Bargnani is better than Charlie).

Milwaukee doesn't really miss a beat with Mo Williams in there instead of Ford. They are both fast PGs that can break down a defense and set up teammates. They lose a little bit of rebounding but gain another 3-pt shooter out on the floor.

Milwaukee gets a quality starter to balance out their lineup. Bogut/Charlie/Magloire should be a pretty quality trio (not super, but definately above average).


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I agree with Patchwork. The Raptors realize that you can still make the playoffs if you are one of the top 4-5 teams in scoring. They need to gain playoff experience, so they will try to get there by scoring first and then once they get there, they can make it.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Both teams get something they need.

HOWEVER, no doubt in my mind that Milwaukee gets the better end of this deal. People I talk to who live in Milwaukee don't even like TJ Ford AT ALL. They say he shoots way too much and stalls ball movement, despite his gaudy assist numbers. Looking at his awful FG% and the number of shots he takes, I'd have to agree.

Villanueva is a 6'11 big guy with tons of talent and perimeter skills. The Raptors could've gotten a MUCH better point guard for him, IMO. TJ Ford is nothing special. And now the Bucks have a amazingly talented frontcourt consisting of Villanueva and Bogut at the 4/5. Those two guys are going to compliment each other extremely well.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

Well, the Bucks got the athletic 4 they said they were interested in shopping Magloire for, and now they need help at the point. The Bulls need to get in that mix and offer Duhon+miscellany. I def. take Magloire over Pryzbilla and any of the other centers on the market other than maybe a healthy Nene.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> The Bucks fell out of the playoffs for the year that Ford was out with the injury, and Maurice Williams started every game for them that year. I love the Bucks upgrade in the frontcourt, but their backcourt is in danger if Maurice Williams is going to be the full time point guard.
> 
> Williams is not a starter. He is a bench player. He is one of those guys who will score 30 one night just because he is hot, but then will disappear for 5 games. Repeat cycle.
> 
> This is a guy who played an average of 13 minutes per game in the Pistons series. He had one good game, and was missing in action for the others. Story of his career. Great guy to have off the bench, terrible guy to rely on to be your point guard night in and night out.


Yeah they also started Dan Gadzuric at Center Joe Smith at PF and Desmond Mason at the 3. There were many reasons why they didnt make the playoffs that year, last year they had bogut and Bobby Simmons. 

One major thing that people are forgetting about ford is he is a tremendous defensive liability. He will get his share of steals but his height has made him an embarrasement guarding pgs over 6-1 and offensively he cant shot a lick. I watched almost every bucks game last year and he forced alot of terrible running floaters instead of feeding Bogut or Redd. Sometimes it seemed like TJs quickness which is his best asset also hurt him cause his body moved faster than his brain.

Mo Williams is a good player who numbers wise was better than ford last year and showed incredible clutch shooting in the fourth quarter (including two buzzer beaters to win games). The Bucks will be fine at the point. This will also give Charlie Bell more minutes at the point which is great cause charlie was the bucks best perimeter defender and he plays unselfishly with alot of heart, this is a great trade for the Bucks, and at the very least they can trade magloire now, id give him away for a bag of peanuts.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

roux2dope said:


> One major thing that people are forgetting about ford is he is a tremendous defensive liability. He will get his share of steals but his height has made him an embarrasement guarding pgs over 6-1


I strongly disagree. With the way the NBA is now, it's hard enough to for a 6'10 power forward to score in the post because of the fairly new loose zone rules. Teams are learning more and more every year how to make post players make extremely difficult shots to beat you. 

That's with post players too. You will rarely see a point guard score in the post with any kind of consistency. You can be a 6'1 point guard nowadays because offenses can't just put you on an island anymore. Defenses have changed along with the rules. 

Unless we're talking about playing Sam Cassell 82 times a year, TJ Ford's height is no reason to consider him a defensive liability.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Um, well done Coangelo. Seriously, we're watching Exec of the Year moves unfold before our very eyes.

I wonder if the Raps were on the phone with us at all, considering Hinrich and Gordon (sort of) are considered some of the best young talented guards as well. Ty Thomas makes Villanueva much less important, but I wonder if we would have been interested in taking Brandon Roy, trading Gordon for Villanueva and their second rounder (they got PJ Tucker, who's got a chance to be a player; we could have taken Bobby Jones as well). Then we could have drafted Simmons at 13.

Hinrich/Roy/Deng/Villanueva/Chandler
Duhon/Tucker/Noch/Sweetney/Cedric Simmons/FA bigs

For some reason, Skiles and Pax see something in Khryapa that makes them excited, so theoretically we made out better with Ty Thomas (possibly the better version of Charlie V), we keep Gordon and have Thabo play the role of the big athletic defender, and have the depth of Khryapa.

But then again, it probably would have taken Hinrich to make the deal, as Gordon is very much like Mike James, and they do need a pure point.

In any event, good job, Raptors. We'll see if Ford can keep up with his upward improvement.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

I think we need to view this as a whole.

1. Ford is a main reason Bucks can't win as many games as expected

2. Ford has many unforce errors, assists - errors = zero

3. score - defense = zero

4. If he is injured, ........

Bucks need a point guard. There is a reason Bucks sends him to Canada.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> Um, well done Coangelo. Seriously, we're watching Exec of the Year moves unfold before our very eyes.


Wow, I'm surprised how many people think the Raptors made out well in this trade. TJ Ford is an highly flawed player, IMO. You'd be surprised how many Bucks advocates will be happy to be rid of the guy. The fact that they got a stud like Villanueva is icing on the cake. I'm not saying TJ isn't talented, because he is...he just doesn't bring the kind of leadership and intangibles that you want out of your PG. If he was really that good, the Bucks would've been more than simply a .500 team last year. I really think the Raptors are going to regret this trade.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

bad move for the Raps. Who knows how long Ford physically holds up.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Wow, I'm surprised how many people think the Raptors made out well in this trade. TJ Ford is an highly flawed player, IMO. You'd be surprised how many Bucks advocates will be happy to be rid of the guy. The fact that they got a stud like Villanueva is icing on the cake. I'm not saying TJ isn't talented, because he is...he just doesn't bring the kind of leadership and intangibles that you want out of your PG. If he was really that good, the Bucks would've been more than simply a .500 team last year. I really think the Raptors are going to regret this trade.


It looks like great fit for Bucks. It looks like a great fit for Raptors also.


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## BealeFarange (May 22, 2004)

Milwaukee absolutely fleeced Toronto in trading a 5'11 injury/turnover/defense liability for a versatile and athletic young power forward. Ford was hardly the second best point guard on their team--Mo Williams was clearly better and Charlie Bell wasn't that far off. How anyone can think Toronto won this deal is beyond me, even if Ford hadn't gone under the knife for major spinal surgery last year.

This almost makes me think there's something about Charlie that we don't know...it's that uneven in my mind. 

p.s.--Oh, and...hello, everyone.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

I think this was a great trade. Charlie gives MIL the PF they wanted, and they are still good if not just fine at point still. Ford was in the wrong system, with a lot competition at his position, he will thrive in TOR.

I think it was a pretty good move for both teams, although I think TOR might have gotten a better deal elsewhere.

It was certainly a good move for the players. The are both in better situations.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

Cv is a very nice man and is one of the softest players in the league. He is already in love with his jump shot and taking three pointers. He is a poor man's Antoine Walker IMHO. Now if you think that is the way the nba game is going OK. But i always throught that bosh and CV were both soft and the raptors need to really but a big phyisical center next to bosh to develop good chemistry.

I really like TJ Ford, Mo Peterson, Bangnani, and Bosh as a core and next year they should be able to get a solid big man to fillin there starting core.

As for Mil, I like bogot and think he will really mature into a poor man's Bill Walton and there core of Simmons, CV, and Bogot as a front line. A little soft. My guess is will trade J. Magloire for either a SG or a PG. I think both teams made this trade for need but i also think the raptors did a good job in changing there team that now is looking more like a Phx/Dallas model.

david


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

BealeFarange said:


> Milwaukee absolutely fleeced Toronto in trading a 5'11 injury/turnover/defense liability for a versatile and athletic young power forward. Ford was hardly the second best point guard on their team--Mo Williams was clearly better and Charlie Bell wasn't that far off. How anyone can think Toronto won this deal is beyond me, even if Ford hadn't gone under the knife for major spinal surgery last year.
> 
> This almost makes me think there's something about Charlie that we don't know...it's that uneven in my mind.
> 
> p.s.--Oh, and...hello, everyone.


Beale, it's been too long my friend. Good to see ya! :cheers:


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

step said:


> Interesting part is, what does Bosh think of this?


TJ is one of Chris's best friends. There was a bit of an issue last year with Mike James running the point. Chris must be thrilled that Ford, a natural point guard, is going to be handling the rock, and feeding Chris until he bursts.

As well as Charlie played he is a power forward and Toronto (had) too many of them. TJ is a better fit. Right now it looks like a lateral move in terms of talent, maybe with Milwaukee getting the slight tilt on their end. We'll see who won the trade five or six years from now.

The genius part of this trade, and the other moves BC has made, is that Toronto has filled their holes at the 1 and 5 without spending their cap space.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

We should offer them Du for Gazuric.

:laugh:


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I actually think both Ford and CV are somewhat overrated. Ford is a wonderful offensive PG, but he's probably one of the worst defenders around. CV has lots of skills, but he also runs very hot and cold.

All in all, a pretty even trade, though I'm a little bit surprised Magloire wasn't involved, since the Raptors had been rumored to be after him for a long time. I guess they figure, perhaps rightly, that with Bargnani and Bosh, they've got their starters minutes sewed up, and with Rasho as the primary backup, it'd be overkill to bring him in.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

The raptors do not want Magloire. They are slowing building a team similar to Phx. And Magloire is more a half court player. I bet Magloire goes to the spurs.

david


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## Chris Bosh #4 (Feb 18, 2005)

Man why are you guys only making Charlie look good? Coming from a Raps fan, Charlie is inconsistent, SOFT, not that great of a free throw shooter, sometimes a chucker, one of the worst defensive forwards in the league(not kidding), but he is a good talent. You guys make him out to be the GOAT or something. CV has potential to be a second option, and that potential was always there when he was a Raptor. Him averaging 18 points/8 rebounds/2 assists is most likely his ceiling. CV is just too soft, he'll rather pull up for the 3, rather than drive it in.


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

It's easy to get blinded by a player who puts up good rookie stats, but you've got to put those numbers in context. Villanueva scored his points on one of the worst teams in the league -- a team that regularly lost games with scores like 120-110. When you're crappy team scores 110 but you have only one legitimate scoring threat to speak of (Bosh) obviously some other guys stats are going to be inflated (Mike James anyone?)

Bottom line, Colangalo is a smart GM and he knew that Villanueva's value would never be higher, so he put him on the block. Some dumb team would probably be convinced that he has a "high ceiling" because of a strong first year in the scoring column. Unfortunately, that ceiling probably only consists of the fact that he can one day score a very empty 16 ppg. Big whoop. When he's on the court, his team is worse off because he has no basketball IQ and plays some of the shoddiest defense I have ever seen. Villanueva does not help his team win, and that's all a GM should be looking at.

On the flipside of this trade, TJ Ford is a lightning quick pass-first PG who would get a lot more respect if he hadn't been out a year with injury and wasn't so hidden by the anonymity of Milwaukee.

No doubt in my mind who got the better end of this deal.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

^ It's also no surprise that the team Charlie put 48 on was Milwaukee. They got a first hand look at his potential (in a Raptors loss w/o Bosh playing).


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

i say initially Milwaukee win this trade, simply because I believe Toronto could have got more for Charlie. However, Ford does fit their system very well, very fast, quite a good distributor, backed by another solid distributor (Jose Calderon) who's possibly a bit safer with the ball. They've got a slasher at Pg, a shooter at SG (MoPete), who knows what at the 3.. (i'm guessing their next signing is a swingman, a 2/3 to play the other wing spot with MoPete, backed by Joey Graham and PJ Tucker)

I see Nesterovic starting, but maybe getting just 20 minutes per night, 24.. (his career average, so he won't complain).
Bosh at the 4, for a good 35 - 40 minutes per night.
Behind them they have Bargnani, who can easily play both positions against second string opposition; and possibly they get Garbajosa over from Europe too (though i don't know his NBA position).
Point is, they now have pieces that allow them to play halfcourt as well as run'n'gun.

Milwaukee may win the trade, but it was a necesarry one for Toronto.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> I wonder if the Raps were on the phone with us at all, considering Hinrich and Gordon (sort of) are considered some of the best young talented guards as well.


Hinrich might have interested him, but really, TJ is a better fit in one very important respect: he plays at warp speed. He longs to push the ball all the time. Hinrich did that with some success against Miami, but in general that's not the way he plays, at least as a Bull. 

However, one thing that Kirk does that TJ does not is shoot reasonably well, and that's important in the Phoenix-type system.


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

Kirk also plays excellent defence on 2 positions, and has a solid 2 or 3 inches on Ford height-wise.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

5'11" players don't last long in this league... especially ones with spine injuries. Toronto will get a good Damon Staudamire-like 3 year spurt out of Ford and in 2010 they'll look like they gave up a bit too much.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Chris Bosh #4 said:


> Man why are you guys only making Charlie look good? Coming from a Raps fan, Charlie is inconsistent, SOFT, not that great of a free throw shooter, sometimes a chucker, one of the worst defensive forwards in the league(not kidding), but he is a good talent. You guys make him out to be the GOAT or something. CV has potential to be a second option, and that potential was always there when he was a Raptor. Him averaging 18 points/8 rebounds/2 assists is most likely his ceiling. CV is just too soft, he'll rather pull up for the 3, rather than drive it in.


You make good points that Charlie is inconsistent and sluggish on D. However, a) he was a rookie, and b) he's a 6'11 big guy with a ton of skill. He had a pretty good rookie year and still has tons of room to grow as a player. Giving that up for a smallish PG like Ford (a player who many think doesn't even make his team much better) seems like a questionable move. Maybe he'll better in Toronto though, so time will tell. At least it fits a positional need.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Chris Bosh #4 said:


> Man why are you guys only making Charlie look good? Coming from a Raps fan, Charlie is inconsistent, SOFT, not that great of a free throw shooter, sometimes a chucker, one of the worst defensive forwards in the league(not kidding), but he is a good talent. You guys make him out to be the GOAT or something. CV has potential to be a second option, and that potential was always there when he was a Raptor. Him averaging 18 points/8 rebounds/2 assists is most likely his ceiling. CV is just too soft, he'll rather pull up for the 3, rather than drive it in.


We can't watch many Raptors games in the west. If it is true, then there is no winner.


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

HKF said:


> I agree with Patchwork. The Raptors realize that you can still make the playoffs if you are one of the top 4-5 teams in scoring. They need to gain playoff experience, so they will try to get there by scoring first and then once they get there, they can make it.


The Raptors were already the fourth top scoring team in the NBA.

Phoenix: 108.4
Seattle: 102.6
Washington: 101.7
TORONTO: 101.1

Toronto's problem was that they could not play any defense whatsoever. Phoenix's system is successful, I believe, because they "force" their opponents to play at the same pace they do. Adding TJ Ford may just help a lot for Toronto, but the Raptors need to have some semblance of a defense to even be close to making the playoffs.


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## draft tyrus (Jun 29, 2006)

gets rid of one defensive liability in V but adds another in Ford.


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## BealeFarange (May 22, 2004)

I agree that one reason Toronto lost this trade is because they could have gotten MORE for CV. It's the same reason Balman was such a bad pick for NYK: they could have gotten so much more there to work with. The trade, though, will probably end up working very well for both teams...just as Balkman has a slight chance of working out well for the Knicks.


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