# Game 4: Phoenix Suns @ Los Angeles Clippers - 11/4



## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

*Game 4: Saturday, November 4th, 8:30 PM (PST - Arizona)*




















*Phoenix Suns* 
_*(1-2)*_









<table border=2 align=center>
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<tr align=center>
<td>*Nash*
<td>*Barbosa*
<td>*Marion*
<td>*Diaw*
<td>*Thomas*
<tr align=center>
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<tr align=center>
<td>Banks
<td>Bell
<td>JuJones
<td>JaJones
<td>Stoudemire
</table>









@


*Los Angeles Clippers* 
_*(1-1)*_









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<tr align=center>
<td>*Cassell*
<td>*Mobley*
<td>*Ross*
<td>*Brand*
<td>*Kaman*
<tr align=center>
<td>








<td>








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<td>








<tr align=center>
<td>Livingston
<td>Ewing
<td>Maggette
<td>Singleton
<td>Thomas
</table>










*Suns Previous Game* 

Jazz 108 - Suns 104 

The Suns are coming off another dissapointing loss that featured a blown lead, but this time it happened on their home court to the Utah Jazz. Their defense was very bad in closing minutes. Turnovers were again a problem in the second half and the Suns were at a 16 rebound disadvantage in the game. Boris Diaw was benched in the game due to him not being assertive out there on the court. Leandro was moved into the starting lineup while Raja Bell tries to exit his shooting slump. Marcus Banks played a great game, but could not get a single bounce to go his way. He missed 4 easy layups off the back of the rim. The Suns had a chance to win at the end, but Leandro Barbosa missed a semi-open layup off the back of the rim.

*Clippers Previous Game*

Clippers 96 - Nuggets 95 

Tim Thomas was back into the groove like he was for the Suns last year with 21 points off the bench, many in clutch situations. Sam Cassell, back in the starting lineup over Shaun Livingston, continued his hot streak with 35 points in as many minutes.

*Game Notes* 

The rematch of the rematch, but this time in L.A. The Suns defeated the Clippers 112-104 at home in their second game of the season. They were unable to slow down Elton Brand, who had 28 points and 8 offensive rebounds, but they did hold the Clippers under 43% field goal shooting as a team. Amare Stoudemire was a factor in that game, but can he assert himself again in a hostile environment? This will be a difficult game for the Suns to win, and they will need results from Diaw and Bell. Tim Thomas looks to be back in form for his new team, which does not bode well for the Suns. Kurt Thomas will likely see more playing time than he did in the last meeting between these two teams, where he was limited due to fouling out in about a dozen minutes. Surprising has been the Suns knack to get to the free throw line this year, averaging 27 attempts per game. Last year, they were worst in the league with under 20 attempts per game.

*Injuries* 

No injuries reported for the Suns. Jalen Rose has signed a contract, but will not be available until the next game against the San Antonio Spurs. Corey Maggette is still listed as day to day for the Clippers, but has not yet missed a game. Aaron Williams and Zelkjo Rebraca will not be available for the contest.


Vegas Odds
_MGM-Mirage_

Favorite: LAC	
Point spread: -3½​

Go Suns!​


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

geesh clippers suns again? im rooting for the suns this game :biggrin:


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

I don't know what to expect. I can't stand caring
about this team. It's to rough on me.


I just have to watch the game for the entertainment value.....


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## Phoenix32 (Nov 1, 2006)

I just don't how this match could finish... But I believe that there is a chance to win...


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## Wilmatic2 (Oct 30, 2005)

Jalen Rose playing tonight?


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

Wilmatic2 said:


> Jalen Rose playing tonight?




I heard he'll be with the team against the Spurs, Wensday night.


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## Sunsfan81 (Apr 17, 2006)

this is a must win and we're not playing too well right now :curse:


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## Sunsfan81 (Apr 17, 2006)

down 13!!!! :curse: :curse:


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

If I were a Suns fan I still wouldn't be too worried. If the past is any indication, usually 2 game losing streaks are a precursor for 10 game winning streaks... I remember last season when I just wanted the Clippers to lead the Pacific, and saw the Suns playing against Dallas, Kings, Cavs... I thought hey, they lost 3 in a row...

Then they win 11 in a row...

Even if you guys lose to us this game, it doesn't mean anything, just look at the Mavs lol... 0-2.

You don't need this game as much as you think, besides, we kind of owe you for our first loss. :angel: And still, this game is far from over, peace for the rest of the game, hope it's a good half to watch.


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## Zei_Zao_LS (Apr 1, 2005)

Hallelujah, we're down 13!

Now, "Why is this a good thing?" you inquire skeptically. Well, I'll tell you why, it's because we're going to win.

Now for an explanation... We don't have a lead we need to keep, and we always play better when we're down. All last year I was saying that I'd rather be down 10 at the half than up 15, with the exception of when we were playing good defense last year.

So, yeah. Get your victory dances ready.
[/guh]


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Just think - next week we play the Mavs AND Spurs. Both on national TV btw...

They give us an early tough schedule on purpose?


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Damn, we've cut it to 3.


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

Suns are so good when they rebound, and so bad
when they don't.

It's getting old already, that Nash and Marion, LB are the only
ones who show up to play. =(

Lets see what the Suns can do at the begining of the 4th.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

yeah i noticed that. in the first half, i think the only reason they got stomped so badly was because of the lack of rebounds.

last year in the playoffs though, the have court combo of nash/diaw was pretty what much anchored them when they couldn't get rebounds and run though.


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

*take The Ball To The ****ing Hoop!!!! 
Omg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Sunsfan81 (Apr 17, 2006)

1-3, this team sucks!!! :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset:


:idea: Larry Brown is available.....


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

Free Arsenal said:


> If I were a Suns fan I still wouldn't be too worried. If the past is any indication, usually 2 game losing streaks are a precursor for 10 game winning streaks... I remember last season when I just wanted the Clippers to lead the Pacific, and saw the Suns playing against Dallas, Kings, Cavs... I thought hey, they lost 3 in a row...
> 
> Then they win 11 in a row...
> 
> ...


Thanks man, much appreciated.


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

Sunsfan81 said:


> 1-3, this team sucks!!! :upset: :upset: :upset: :upset:
> 
> 
> :idea: Larry Brown is available.....


...sad.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

eh, same thing was said about d'antoni against the lakers series last year, then the suns came back to win the series and no one said a word.

why are you so quick to blame it on the coaching.. do you know how to gauge coaching? suns are playing poorly mainly because of the players, not the coaching. diaw is out of shape, raja can't make a shot, leandro is the same (as in he goes wild, and sometimes it's a posive.. and other times it's a negative). nash is playing great though, but he's the only guy.

once or if diaw gets back to his old self, i think the suns will do much better. the rest of the starters are playing so bad, it perplexes me more why they're not trying to work amare back into the offense.


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

Ouch, lost another one. 1-3 sounds bad, but it's not horrible. The Suns have a lot of kinks they have to work out, especially when it comes to getting Diaw back into the flow of things. They need to get through this tough stretch, and then learn against the bad teams. Once they get some momentum, they should be tough to beat. 

For all the fatalist Suns fans who want to fire one of the best coaches in the league and already give up on the team (both of which are absolutely pathetic), championships are not won in the first couple weeks of the season. Don't let emotion cloud your judgement.

Miami is 1-1 with a horrible blowout in their opener.
Dallas is 0-2.
Clippers are 2-1, but could very easily be 1-2.
Chicago is 1-2.
Cleveland just lost to Charlotte.

Good teams are losing right now. No worries, the tables will turn. They always do.


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

afobisme said:


> eh, same thing was said about d'antoni against the lakers series last year, then the suns came back to win the series and no one said a word.
> 
> why are you so quick to blame it on the coaching.. do you know how to gauge coaching? suns are playing poorly mainly because of the players, not the coaching. diaw is out of shape, raja can't make a shot, leandro is the same (as in he goes wild, and sometimes it's a posive.. and other times it's a negative). nash is playing great though, but he's the only guy.
> 
> once or if diaw gets back to his old self, i think the suns will do much better. the rest of the starters are playing so bad, it perplexes me more why they're not trying to work amare back into the offense.


Nice post. I agree with most of your thoughts here. However, we have tried to post Amare up on several occasions. In the first Clippers game he was confident and went quick. But in the last two he gets the ball and then seems to be waiting for something. He's been playing with zero intensity and zero aggressiveness. If he is not playing much even though others are not giving a heck of a lot of lift, that should tell you that he isn't doing great out there. If he was doing well, coach would definitely give him more nods.


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## Sunsfan81 (Apr 17, 2006)

afobisme said:


> it perplexes me more why they're not trying to work amare back into the offense.


I don't know if that's possible, he's still not 100%, so he shouldn't be playing much and risking injury


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

ShuHanGuanYu said:


> For all the fatalist *Suns fans who want to fire one of the best coaches in the league* and already give up on the team (both of which are absolutely pathetic), championships are not won in the first couple weeks of the season. Don't let emotion cloud your judgement.


I said if Mike doesn't get this team to the Finals, he should be fired.

Mike D is so overrated as a head coach. He doesn't even coach.....Nash 
runs all the plays, does all the talking to players. Mike just takes the credit for
it. 

He needs to start stressing defense. Lack of effort on rebounding is
killing the Suns.


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

Dr.Seuss said:


> I said if Mike doesn't get this team to the Finals, he should be fired.
> 
> Mike D is so overrated as a head coach. He doesn't even coach.....Nash
> runs all the plays, does all the talking to players. Mike just takes the credit for
> ...


Who are you saying has a lack of effort with rebounding? You are acting like the entire team is having a problem. Marion and Thomas are rebounding just fine. It's Diaw that is the culprit. But he's out of shape, we know this. By coach cannot get him to rebound until he gets in shape. So he benches him, but we still lose. Stoudemire isn't rebounding well either. James Jones is not going to rebound. Leandro Barbosa is giving somewhat of a lift, but come on. 

Next time, why don't you try telling us what you would do in such a situation with the players they currently have? It's easy to criticize, but you tell me a better solution that doesn't involve a trade (too early for trades). The part you should have bolded is this: *Don't let emotion cloud your judgement.*


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

What's going on with the Suns guys(I don't get the games on TV)?

Steve looks like he's playing well; same with Marion...

What's up with Diaw and Amare?

How are Barbosa and Bell playing?

Why are we 1-3!?


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

eh, im not sure if it will be d'antoni's fault if the suns don't get to the finals this year. you have to get past dallas and san antonio. i guess all fans become harsh when you lose :biggrin:

diaw is doing horrible, raja can't make a shot but keeps hurling away... marion is playing decent (i think he's capable of more though). barbosa is his usual wild self, but he missed a lot of shots in the lane today.


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

Dr.Seuss said:


> I said if Mike doesn't get this team to the Finals, he should be fired.
> 
> Mike D is so overrated as a head coach. He doesn't even coach.....Nash
> runs all the plays, does all the talking to players. Mike just takes the credit for
> ...


You did this in the playoffs as well. Once we start slightly struggling you jump down D'Antoni's throat. 

Just grow up and stop being such a bandwagoner..


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

afobisme said:


> eh, im not sure if it will be d'antoni's fault if the suns don't get to the finals this year. you have to get past dallas and san antonio. i guess all fans become harsh when you lose :biggrin:
> 
> diaw is doing horrible, raja can't make a shot but keeps hurling away... marion is playing decent (i think he's capable of more though). barbosa is his usual wild self, but he missed a lot of shots in the lane today.


Nah, not all.  It hurts like hell when they lose. But that doesn't mean I have to come on here and talk about firing our coach out of the blue.


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

ShuHanGuanYu said:


> Who are you saying has a lack of effort with rebounding? You are acting like the entire team is having a problem. Marion and Thomas are rebounding just fine. It's Diaw that is the culprit. But he's out of shape, we know this. By coach cannot get him to rebound until he gets in shape. So he benches him, but we still lose. Stoudemire isn't rebounding well either. James Jones is not going to rebound. Leandro Barbosa is giving somewhat of a lift, but come on.
> 
> Next time, why don't you try telling us what you would do in such a situation with the players they currently have? It's easy to criticize, but you tell me a better solution that doesn't involve a trade (too early for trades). The part you should have bolded is this: *Don't let emotion cloud your judgement.*


If you watched the game, you would see Shawn and Kurt
allowed their man to go right around them. As well as the guards not
going into rebound. 

It has nothing to do with what Mike did wrong. It has everything to do with how he
conducts training camp. You play training camp just how you play the regular season.
If defense isn't important in training camp, it isn't important in the regulars season.
It's all about stressing this crap from day 1. He also needs to get more plays, plays you can
go to when you're down 5 with 3 minutes to go in the 4th. He has failed to coach this team.
It's a big injustice. This team deserves better, especially with the given talent on this roster.

You don't need to go small ball every ****ing time. You can put Kurt and Amare alongside each other, but I bet that never crossed his one-dimesional mindset.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

you know, with stoudamire not in the offensive mix, it feels like something from last year is missing... tim thomas! he played a huge role for the suns late last year.

btw, is it me or does tim seem a lot skinnier this year? seems like losing that bulk makes him a bit more athletic (when driving to the basket)


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> You did this in the playoffs as well. Once we start slightly struggling you jump down D'Antoni's throat.
> 
> Just grow up and stop being such a bandwagoner..


I haven't liked Mike D even when the Suns won 62 games. 
Simply because I knew it wasn't going to get this team anywhere in the playoffs.

Coach Mike pisses me off alot. You cannot expect the pick-n-roll to
win you games. Maybe with Amare healthy you can. But right, it won't work
very often.


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

Dr.Seuss said:


> If you watched the game, you would see Shawn and Kurt
> allowed their man to go right around them. As well as the guards not
> going into rebound.
> 
> ...


If I watched the game? If??? 

??? He did put Kurt and Amare in there together tonight...needless to say, it didn't work out. 

Kurt Thomas and Shawn Marion had 26 rebounds tonight. Maybe you're spoiled from watching some other great rebounding team, but that's about all you can ask for. If you are expecting them to average 15 apiece, yeah...I can see how they are a let down. Corey Maggette was rebounding all over the place, as was Tim Thomas. Someone wasn't going their job, and it wasn't Shawn and Kurt. You say guards were rebounding, and it makes it sound like you expect Shawn and Kurt to box out all 5 Clippers at one time.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

i remember the suns bread and butter offense in the halfcourt set last year against us was nash/diaw.. and they killed us in the last 3 games. so the 2 man game apparently does work well for the suns, it's just diaw isn't what he was last year at this point. and stoudamire really isn't himself.

with the suns losing amare and kurt last year, yet getting a nice 3rd seed into the playoffs and going to the WCF, how can you complain about d'antoni? plus they came back from 1-3 against the lakers, with a shorthanded roster. suns could have taken the mavs to 7 games last year too, if only they had more players in their rotation (they were tired as hell, you could tell)


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

ShuHanGuanYu said:


> If I watched the game? If???
> 
> ??? *He did put Kurt and Amare in there together tonight...needless to say, it didn't work out. *
> 
> Kurt Thomas and Shawn Marion had 26 rebounds tonight. Maybe you're spoiled from watching some other great rebounding team, but that's about all you can ask for. If you are expecting them to average 15 apiece, yeah...I can see how they are a let down. Corey Maggette was rebounding all over the place, as was Tim Thomas. Someone wasn't going their job, and it wasn't Shawn and Kurt. You say guards were rebounding, and it makes it sound like you expect Shawn and Kurt to box out all 5 Clippers at one time.


Amare played 10 minutes the whole game. I'm sure Mike didn't give
Kurt and Amare a chance. He rather have Raja Bell at the SF position. 

The Suns should be a better rebounding team. Marion did he best. But everyone
else should step it up. I would love to know how many points the Clips got off
from offensive rebounds that lead to and 1's, foul shots. 

I expect alot of this team. I know it's the begining of the season, but the Suns
should have been ready. Especially since they have their 'eyes on the prize'.


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## ChristopherJ (Aug 10, 2004)

KidCanada said:


> What's going on with the Suns guys(I don't get the games on TV)?
> 
> Steve looks like he's playing well; same with Marion...
> 
> ...


................answer?


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

KidCanada said:


> What's going on with the Suns guys(I don't get the games on TV)?
> 
> Steve looks like he's playing well; same with Marion...
> 
> ...


Our problem is defense and lack of execution. They have not gotten to playing like they were last year with Kurt in the lineup. I think they'll get back to it, but it'll take time. Raja right now is not defending very well. Banks is hounding opposing PG's though, which is good. As a team they are fouling waaaaaaaaay too much, perhaps another sign of just not being in playing shape as a team.

Nash is Nash.

Marion is playing well but is settling way too much for the outside shot. It's safe to say that when Marion is taking more than a few threes per game, he's not doing what's best for the team. He's been good with the midrange game so far this season, but I don't know why he doesn't stay within the 3 line. 

Diaw is off on another planet right now. Nothing he does seems crisp like it did in the playoffs, just a step too slow. He needs to get his head in the game, it's almost as if he's just got something else on his mind.

Amare is hurting out there, and I don't mean physically. He needs to be more aggressive and more assertive when he has the ball. He needs to grab the ball and do something with it right away, stop being so timid and trying to think too much before moving with the ball. Also, he is not using his body at all to establish any sort of position. That makes his shots harder to take, or when he drives it allows a double to come very easily. 

Bell is not playing well. His shot is off, and he's been able to contribute some by taking it to the hoop. But that isn't his strength, we need him to play D and hit the open shots.

Barbosa is playing very well. He's getting to all the right spots, but he's had a hard time finishing in the last two games. He's missed several layups right at the rim that should have easily gone down. He seems to have improved his passing off of the drives in the offseason, but I haven't seen much of that midrange game he said he was working on in the offseason. His defensive intensity also seems to have increased a slight notch, but he'll still have foul trouble here and there.

I hope Jumaine Jones gets 10-15 minutes in the next game. We might as well give him a shot while other guys get their game legs back.


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

i dont think 1-3 means u guys need to panic. the suns started almost the same way last season. they thrive off the cohesiveness and chemistry of the offense. right now everyone is sort of out of shape or not mixing well as they did when they were in the playoffs. or theyre just feeling themselves out and seeing what roles they need to play more of. when they get that down pat, they're gonna run the table and see more wins. i would be worry if they were losing 3-4 15-20 games later. not now. its still way too early in the season to hit the panic button.


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## ShuHanGuanYu (Feb 3, 2005)

DuMa said:


> i dont think 1-3 means u guys need to panic. the suns started almost the same way last season. they thrive off the cohesiveness and chemistry of the offense. right now everyone is sort of out of shape or not mixing well as they did when they were in the playoffs. or theyre just feeling themselves out and seeing what roles they need to play more of. when they get that down pat, they're gonna run the table and see more wins. i would be worry if they were losing 3-4 15-20 games later. not now. its still way too early in the season to hit the panic button.


Agreed, you pretty much hit it on the head. Most of the good teams are struggling right now. Once the Suns get rolling they'll be tough to stop.


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## Lukasbmw (Jul 30, 2004)

I can't believe you guys are *****ing this early still.

We have been in all 4 games, we just could not close 3. At times our play has been flawless. All we have to do is play a full 48 minutes and we will again be feared by all.

Something to consider:

In 04-05 our goal was the playoffs...we ended up in the WCF

In 05-06, the Amare injury had some sports writers saying we would not make the playoffs. Others said we would be a .500 team. We again made the WCF

In 06-07 we are expected by EVERYONE to be one of the top teams. The pressure is high.

Some of our guys are struggling. It happens. When they pull it together, all you fair weather fans will again be posting how much you love the Suns. 

My only recommendation:

Start - Nash, Bell, Marion, Amare, and KT. Diaw and Barbosa come off the bench.

Why?

Rebounding and Defense: We need more of both and going small with Nash, Bell, and Barbosa is not helping.

Amare is ready. He is moving fine and has shown flashes of the 04-05 Amare if we want to win a ring, we need him in 04-05 form. Yes, he is struggling a bit with his shot, is committing a few too many stupid fouls, and try's to force too much right now. However, the only way he is going to improve is playing time. Get him in with Nash and let him run the two man game. He will quickly get his timing back.

Besides the 2 man game between Amare and Nash, you still have Raja ready to launch, KT ready to pop out for the 15-18 foot shot, and Marion ready to clean up. 

This is our strongest lineup and we need to start running it this way. Barbosa and Diaw will get significant minutes off the Bench. Rose, Banks, and JR will get the minutes necessary to relieve our other guys.

Lots of people rag on Amare's defense, but it really improved in 04-05. If he stops committing so many stupid fouls, a frontline of Amare, KT, and Marion would play solid defense.


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## CaliCool (Nov 5, 2004)

Not Amare in the starting lineup yet. Wont work.


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## Phoenix32 (Nov 1, 2006)

Another lost... So what can I say... We are playing teribly in defense and we don't concentrate when we are leading. We must play slowly when we are leading and when we are playing in fourth quarter... Now I am looking forward for two big games next week against Spurs and Mavs. We must win, if we won't we will be in really bad situation...


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## MeirToTheWise (Nov 9, 2005)

Phoenix32 said:


> Another lost... So what can I say... We are playing teribly in defense and we don't concentrate when we are leading. We must play slowly when we are leading and when we are playing in fourth quarter... Now I am looking forward for two big games next week against Spurs and Mavs. We must win, if we won't we will be in really bad situation...


No we won't. This isn't football where 1-5 (if we do end up losing to the Spurs or Mavs) puts you in a tough spot... There is 82 games, not 16. It shouldn't be a suprise that the Suns would have a rough first month considering that you're trying to get both new and old players back into shape. Watch, after this first month or so, the Suns'll be back to normal for the most part. There's no reason to panic... If this were mid-season or towards the end of the season, then okay... But this is the beginning of the season for God sakes.


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

MeirToTheWise said:


> No we won't. This isn't football where 1-5 (if we do end up losing to the Spurs or Mavs) puts you in a tough spot... There is 82 games, not 16. It shouldn't be a suprise that the Suns would have a rough first month considering that you're trying to get both new and old players back into shape. Watch, after this first month or so, the Suns'll be back to normal for the most part. There's no reason to panic... If this were mid-season or towards the end of the season, then okay... But this is the beginning of the season for God sakes.


Also don't forget, the Suns have probably the most brutal early schedule.


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