# Bulls @ Raptors, Dec. 14th



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

<center>
















*Chicago Bulls* (10-10) @ *Toronto Raptors* (4-17)
December 14th, 2005, 7:00 PM EST
Rogers SportsNet Ontario





































*Chris Duhon, Kirk Hinrich, Luol Deng, Andres Nocioni, Mike Sweetney*

<IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="CALDERON, JOSE" TITLE="CALDERON, JOSE" SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/speedythief/raptors/jcalderon0.jpg">







<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/speedythief/raptors/mpeterson0.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="BOSH, CHRIS" TITLE="BOSH, CHRIS" SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/speedythief/raptors/cbosh0.jpg"> <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/speedythief/raptors/raraujo0.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com"> 
*Jose Calderon, Mike James, Morris Peterson, Chris Bosh, Rafael Araujo*</center>


----------



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Before you ask, yes, that is the lineup Chicago is running, with Chandler coming off the bench. Don't ask me, I just work here.


----------



## SteveHartfiel (Jun 8, 2003)

If Sweetney guards bosh, then I think we see him in foul trouble all game, and with The bulls being very thin for big bodies (nocioni at the 4) I think it will really propel Bosh's game


----------



## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

I have three Bulls on my main fantasy team, and none of them are named Duhon or Hinrich.

The Ucash betting line is +2.5 for the Raps, so it looks like I'll be betting against the Raps tonight.
Prove me wrong boys, prove me wrong.


----------



## aizn (Jun 19, 2005)

wow, could either b a really close game, or could b a blowout.


----------



## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

BLOOOODY MURDER....i have an exam at 7 o clock so i cant watch the game....thats pure BS


----------



## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

adhir1 said:


> BLOOOODY MURDER....i have an exam at 7 o clock so i cant watch the game....thats pure BS


What's it on? Cause if you need an essay, I know someone who can hook you up....lol.


----------



## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

speedythief said:


> Before you ask, yes, that is the lineup Chicago is running, with Chandler coming off the bench. Don't ask me, I just work here.



Yeah I watched part of game last weekend and I was shocked to see that lineup. Deng is playing very well as a starter, and I beleive Ben Gordon is injured.

I would imagine Nocioni will guard Bosh, much quicker than Sweetney.


----------



## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Skiles and co. are playing it safe with Chandler after he had some breathing problems a week ago. Chandler will eventually start again but not until they're assured that his breathing problems are out the window.


----------



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I think we'll see Chandler on Bosh for a while. Chandler doesn't play huge minutes and he gets into foul trouble but the more time he spends guarding Bosh the better off Chicago will be.

I hope they don't wear the blue/red uniforms against us tonight. Those make me sick to my stomach they are so fugly.


----------



## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Uh-oh... The Bulls have had our number for a while now, this isn't gonna be pretty.


----------



## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

Last time we played the Bulls, didn't Chandler just totally dominate us? He looked like an All Star out there against us, which was pretty sad. Hopefully he doesn't blow off on us again like that.


----------



## VTRapsfan (Dec 5, 2004)

Bosh will tear apart this frontline as long as he doesn't settle for jumpers all game. Ditto for Charlie V, except when Chandler is in. Hopefully we can pull out a win here, because the Bulls are really vulnerable right now - if Gordon's hurt like CrookedJ said that takes away their best scorer, and they're coming off a tough loss to the Heat. If we just remember the gameplan (get it to Bosh) and avoid taking too many wild shots, then a win shouldn't be too hard to get.

BTW: Don't look now, but Atlanta's got 4 wins.


----------



## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

I think this is our for the taking. They don't have AD anymore


----------



## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

Turkish Delight said:


> Last time we played the Bulls, didn't Chandler just totally dominate us? He looked like an All Star out there against us, which was pretty sad. Hopefully he doesn't blow off on us again like that.


I just checked, he had 18 points and 21 rebounds, including 11 offensive rebounds! Our entire team, had only 7 offensive rebounds. Chicago outrebounded us 53 to 34. We lost that game 110-97.
I expect the rebounding numbers to be a lot closer this time around.


----------



## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i hope sam can find a way to use the energy we've been sitting on for three days.

peace


----------



## JL2002 (Nov 30, 2003)

Jack Armstrong: "oops, SEE YA!" ....Bosh going against Brezec....
I can see the same quote today.....


----------



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

JL2002 said:


> Jack Armstrong: "oops, SEE YA!" ....Bosh going against Sean May....
> I can see the same quote today.....


That was the baseline dunk Bosh had, right?

Probably one of the best out-of-timeout plays Mitchell has come up with. From the time the ball was inbounded to the time Bosh threw it down was, no exaggeration, under 2 seconds on the play clock. Bickerstaff was beside himself.


----------



## AirJordan™ (Nov 21, 2005)

The Raps had 3 days off, so theyre pretty well rested for the game, while the Bulls played against the Heat last night and lost.

The Raptors should win this one.


----------



## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

Great avatar speedy ! It is hard not to notice the best looking girl in the raps ... and she's not even in the dance pak !


----------



## aizn (Jun 19, 2005)

changv10 said:


> Great avatar speedy ! It is hard not to notice the best looking girl in the raps ... and she's not even in the dance pak !


who is she?


----------



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

aizn said:


> who is she?


The uppity, attention-craving mop girl who has literally held games up by taking her sweet time scrubbing the hardwood during stoppages. She's got a bit of a cult following in the GTA.


----------



## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

i heard she has a strong case of teh cooties


----------



## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

speedythief said:


> The uppity, attention-craving mop girl who has literally held games up by taking her sweet time scrubbing the hardwood during stoppages. She's got a bit of a cult following in the GTA.


How old is she speedy?
Aren't those positions (mopping and towel people) reversed for, er 'junior' Raptors fans?

Smells like bait to me.


----------



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

^ Actually I'm pretty indifferent when it comes to mop girl. I don't know how old she is (probably 17 or 18 as far as I can tell). I figured some people around these parts would get a rise out of seeing her picture in an avatar... so to speak.


----------



## AirJordan™ (Nov 21, 2005)

Yeah shes a pretty hott mop girl.


----------



## MjM2xtreMe (Sep 1, 2005)

Shes gotta be like a college student working at ACC to play for books/tuition etc. How did this become the Hot Mop girl thread lol. Anyways with those lineups for tonight i think the Raps have a good chance and Bosh should have another great game, that is of course if he continues his play from last game.


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

speedythief said:


> I figured some people around these parts would get a rise out of seeing her picture in an avatar... so to speak.


:yes:


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Let's see- to be blacked out or not to be blacked out...


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Blacked out it is. **** I hate it when the voice comes on, "due to NBA regulations..."

Oh well. 

Go Raptors. Man I hope Hoff gets off to a good start here.


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

And mop girl's aight. I've seen some not so hot photos too though. The one speedy has is in her better light.


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

This is a great test for us. The Bulls are a slightly better than average team but they're also quite young.

Two fouls on Bosh. Not good.

Two quick fouls on Hoff too. Can't say I like that too much.


----------



## AirJordan™ (Nov 21, 2005)

lol SkywalkerAC......I think they only air Toronto Raptors Away games. im watching the game on Sportsnet Ontario.


----------



## JS03 (Jan 5, 2005)

Errr. Not live. I hate sportsnet. I guess West aint good enough for Raptor games.

Anyways back to the mop girl. (found this on a diff raps board.)
http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/631/p10103006rf.jpg
http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/3479/mopgirl20rd.jpg


----------



## AirJordan™ (Nov 21, 2005)

Mo Pete with a three.

Charlie V with a sick dunk courtesy of Mike James (Who???)


----------



## AirJordan™ (Nov 21, 2005)

Juzt_SicK03 said:


> Errr. Not live. I hate sportsnet. I guess West aint good enough for Raptor games.
> 
> Anyways back to the mop girl. (found this on a diff raps board.)
> http://img482.imageshack.us/img482/631/p10103006rf.jpg
> http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/3479/mopgirl20rd.jpg


Wow man, those pics are really going around the internet. I saw em a long time ago. She says her name is Jade on the Raptors forum on raptors.com


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Seems like the boys are getting it done so far- decent defense and low turnovers.

Bosh on pace for a 24 point night after missing all but one field goal attempt and missing two free throws.


----------



## shapeshifter (Jun 13, 2005)

What's going with Hoffa? Can anyone fill me in, i'm stuck in dark outhere in Calgary.

Sportsnet showing an AHL came over the raptors #$%^!


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Up by 9.

Joey with 7.

11 assists to their 3.

I likey.


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

atlent45 said:


> What's going with Hoffa? Can anyone fill me in, i'm stuck in dark outhere in Calgary.
> 
> Sportsnet showing an AHL came over the raptors #$%^!


He made a 16-footer, got one rebound, one steal, and 2 fouls in his first 4 minutes. Missed another shot too.


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Joey could have a career high in scoring tonight. Makes another midrange jumper.


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Mitchell going away from Charlie in this quarter. Lesson teaching?


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Bit of a foul-fest so far but that's okay for us. Good read by Mitchell to let AA pick up a few rather than Charlie?

2:1 steal to turnover ratio. :biggrin:


----------



## shapeshifter (Jun 13, 2005)

A-will getting some minutes. Who pissed of Sam?


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Another shot clock violation and Calderon dishes to Joey for the dunk. Was it a nice one?


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I'm out like Ron Ron.

Go Raps.


----------



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

^ Just a two handed flush. Nice but not out of the ordinary.

Good half. I thought we started the game very well and tapered off towards the end of the half. Lots of fouls being called.


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Joey better get the same amount of minutes in the second half, SAM!


----------



## AirJordan™ (Nov 21, 2005)

Raptors, dont let this one slip away.


----------



## AirJordan™ (Nov 21, 2005)

Bulls are leading 64-61 in the 3rd Quarter.


----------



## shapeshifter (Jun 13, 2005)

Jose, your killing my fantasy NBA, stop with the turn overs!


----------



## shapeshifter (Jun 13, 2005)

What the #$%& is going on, 5 pts in the 3rd!


----------



## AirJordan™ (Nov 21, 2005)

Raptors are struggling. Turnovers are hurting them.


Mo Pete for three.


----------



## AirJordan™ (Nov 21, 2005)

JOEY GRAHAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sick Wicked And Nasty!

Sam Mitchell should bench Jose Calderon for a couple of minutes. Jose is really struggling in the 3rd Quarter. Those turnovers are costly.


----------



## shapeshifter (Jun 13, 2005)

Whatever sam said to these guys at the half, i hope he remembers it so he never says it again!


----------



## JS03 (Jan 5, 2005)

what happened in the third.. down 8 heading to the forth.


----------



## shapeshifter (Jun 13, 2005)

8 down with 12 min to play... i don't feel good about this one.

My one hope is that the back-to-back helps us out like it did in cha.


----------



## AirJordan™ (Nov 21, 2005)

Raps comming back. Down by 5. Not that bad.


----------



## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Raps down 5 with 5 minutes left... not sure if they can pull this one out.


----------



## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

And what the hell is up with Bosh's one-dimentional game tonight?


----------



## AirJordan™ (Nov 21, 2005)

Awwwwwwwwww Bosh threw it away.

Raps down by 7.


----------



## AirJordan™ (Nov 21, 2005)

Cmon Raptors.

Down by 9.

This game is almost over.


----------



## AirJordan™ (Nov 21, 2005)

Aww 

This game is officially over.


----------



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Kinda strange that Bosh can score 25 on an off night.

Did you know that as a team we had 25 rebounds tonight? :hurl:


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

I love the fact that Rose hasn't played in the second half in two consecutive games. Keep it up Sam.


----------



## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

Internet crashed, but it doesn't look like I missed much.

What's the word on Charlie's 9 mins?


----------



## MjM2xtreMe (Sep 1, 2005)

Alot of turnover and confusion in the second half. Despite Chandler getting injured the raps did not take advantage of it, Bosh was having trouble with Chandler. Did anyone see SPeedy's mop girl late in the fourth right after Bosh went down with a foul? *MOP*ete was talking to her hahaha looks like you have competition Speedy :biggrin:


----------



## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

anybody know why Mitchell called Charlie out in the post game???? And why he only played 8 mins, im guessing there is a correlation in there somewhere...

and speedy who is that in ur pic??? DAMNNNNN


----------



## Unknownone (May 14, 2005)

Rhubarb said:


> Internet crashed, but it doesn't look like I missed much.
> 
> What's the word on Charlie's 9 mins?


Villaneuva apparently has been coasting in practice and his effort out there on the floor this evening where he let Nocioni score @ will didn't sit too well w/ Mitchell, who called out CV during the postgame interview - although I would suggest that it may have been better resolved behind closed doors, I do applaud Mitchell's decision to single Villaneuva out for what has stigmatized him for his career: desire...


----------



## Unknownone (May 14, 2005)

adhir1 said:


> and speedy who is that in ur pic??? DAMNNNNN


That's the rather infamous mop girl... ST knows what time it is...


----------



## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

Unknownone said:


> That's the rather infamous mop girl... ST knows what time it is...


that girl is ON POINT...wow...i thought it was the cheerleader...i forget her name..Courtney i think it is..


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

Thought the Raps had this one, they were playing with such energy in the first half but hey tailed off in the second half, they made the game close but could never make the big shot/stop when they needed it, midway through the 3rd quarter to me was the turning point, the Raps got the game down to 2 points but never put a big run together after that

The Raps needed this game, they got Golden St and Philly next and nethier of those games look like there gonna be W judging on how the Raps played them in there previous meetings


----------



## Unknownone (May 14, 2005)

adhir1 said:


> that girl is ON POINT...wow...i thought it was the cheerleader...i forget her name..Courtney i think it is..


I think you're referring to the leader of the Dance Pak - Courtney Niven, who stars in a ESQ watch commercial - why, oh why, do I know this useless piece of esoterica? Couple of brain cells that should be allocated for something else...


----------



## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

Unknownone said:


> Villaneuva apparently has been coasting in practice and his effort out there on the floor this evening where he let Nocioni score @ will didn't sit too well w/ Mitchell, who called out CV during the postgame interview - although I would suggest that it may have been better resolved behind closed doors, I do applaud Mitchell's decision to single Villaneuva out for what has stigmatized him for his career: desire...


Cheers. Will have to get a copy of the post game interview then.


----------



## aizn (Jun 19, 2005)

it's a tough way for our guys to learn, but at least they're learning that they don't become superstars overnight. and Bosh is a true testament to that, where he stepped up to the challenge.


----------



## MonsterBosh (Feb 9, 2005)

Interesting game and Mitchell had 3 rookies on the floor at one time .... has he been told it's okay to throw a few games to give the rookies more experience?? Sure looks like it .... !!!

What was very apparent was the difference in team IQs ... as the Bulls overwhelmed the Raptors in the second half. The Bulls have been rebuilding for the last 3 years, and if the Raptors look this good in 3 years the fans should be thankful.

You can't win games with a team loaded with rookies and no effective veterans ... and Bosh is not a veteran either. The Raptors may not jell this year as the rookies gain experience and mess up, even bringing the other players down. It's going to be a long season of frustration but interesting nevertheless.

Now Bosh is showing exasperation as he drives to the basket and has trouble elevating at the end .. getting hammered and falling a lot. This is not desireable because it could result in a career-shortening injury ... the guy is still slim and somewhat weak in the legs. Like Vince, Bosh should start to think about his health and career instead of taking too many risks for nothing.

When Babcock said that it would be 5 years before the Raptors are a contending team .. he meant it and he knew what he was talking about ... !!!


----------



## Q8i (Oct 23, 2004)

Wow.. We Suck!


----------



## Thievery Corporation (Jul 2, 2005)

I didn't watch the game (never can), but there are some good things.

For one, Villain now knows that he can't coast or he's gonna be riding the pine. I'm sure this will be an important early lesson that many rookies aren't taught enough. Kudos to Mitchell

Second, I'm glad my boy Graham got some burn. He scored 15 and got 3 steals, I'm assuming he played atleast decent D. Someone help me out on that.

Lastly, it's nice to know that Bosh can get 25 when he's playing like crap.

However, our rebounding was putrid. How the hell did we lose so many when the other team wasn't to high on size either? Also, why did Calderon get 5 TOs this game? Usually he plays under control.


----------



## MonsterBosh (Feb 9, 2005)

Q8i said:


> Wow.. We Suck!


Correct ... but you can still watch the other team on the floor and enjoy their basketball play ... while assessing the Raptor's play ... sort of like the first few years of the Raptors in the NBA.

You should have reasonable expectations of a Raptor team with 4 new and rookie players who have absolutely no game play experience facing the many established NBA teams. They are doing as well as can be expected ... unless your expectations exceed the ability of the team ... then you are most certainly watching half the game and can't be happy.

Give Chicago credit for pulling this game out with demonstably superior basketball IQ and skills than the hapless Raptors.


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Believe it or not I saw some good signs of progress from the Raps D tonight.....at times. Some of that may have been the lethargic first half from the Bulls, but it did look like guys were starting to get it. Starting to. Long way to go. Joey, Hoff, and Bosh rotating better and anticipating better.

This will be a very interesting week for the Raps. How will Charlie react to a rather harsh criticism from Sam? I would note that Sam took a more subtle shot at Charlie a week or so ago by noting that 'earlier in the year' Charlie was the guy giving the team a big boost off the bench but lately was more interested in just scoring. If Charlie is like Bosh he will respond with some strong games. If he struggles with this it could indicate problems ahead.

Hoff played pretty well tonight. The Bulls have been getting a lot of offence from Sweetney and Hoff did a very nice job banging with him and making it very difficult for him. Picked him up early in transition and started bodying him at the elbow instead of just allowing low position. Hoff just has no role on O. He wanders around looking for screens to set. Sad to see at times.

I was surprised the Bulls didn't immediately go back into Sweets when Hoff left the game. They did it in the 4th Q and Bosh got abused badly by the much shorter but much stronger Sweetney. Sam has to start using Hoff for D purposes in the 4th Q when matchups like that can kill us. Bonner just isn't big enough.

Joey had a breakout game. I think next year we will see dramatic improvement if he works on his dribble drives and learns different ways to finish other than that one-handed thing he always does with his right hand.

Sam was also getting frustrated with Calderon's one-handed looping passes. Has to break himself of that habit. Teams are starting to sit on it. They read the scouting reports.

Frustrating game as the Raps could have broken it open in the first half. Instead they let the Bulls keep it close and then our O goes dead cold in the 3rd. We had a steady 4 or 5 point lead most of the 3rd but only scored 1 point over a 5-7 minute stretch where the Bulls went on a 13-1 run. Up 5 to down 7. Game over.

No ball movement, forced shots, missed open shots, turnovers. Just bad execution.


----------



## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

lucky777s said:


> Joey had a breakout game. I think next year we will see dramatic improvement if he works on his dribble drives and learns different ways to finish other than that one-handed thing he always does with his right hand.


Diffently. Joey had a great game. Three steals, wicked.

Another scoreless game for Jalen though.


----------



## MonsterBosh (Feb 9, 2005)

lucky777s

What do you think of the Raptor's strategy to play their rookies in the hope that they will develop faster by being thrown into the NBA grinder and hoping for the best???

This happened in the Bull's game when there were 3 rookies on the floor ... and surely you can't expect any NBA team to win doing this ... and it puts too much pressure on unspectacular rookies as well.

Coach Mitchell is at the mercy of rookie performance which he must openly depend upon in game situation. This is far from an ideal coaching situation because veteran teams will just overwhelm the Raptors with superior basketball team IQ. Any team that loses to the Raptors has a coach that is in deep trouble.


----------



## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

MonsterBosh said:


> Coach Mitchell is at the mercy of rookie performance which he must openly depend upon in game situation. This is far from an ideal coaching situation because veteran teams will just overwhelm the Raptors with superior basketball team IQ. Any team that loses to the Raptors has a coach that is in deep trouble.


MB, what else can Sam do? He can't make trades or sign anyone? If you're pissed at there being three rookies on the court blame Babcock for loading the roster with unexperienced players.

If you take away Rose (who didn't score last night, again) and scratch Loren Woods (because let's face it), who do you play? Sure you can get Bonner and Hoffa in there (which Sam did last night, combined 38 minutes), but those guys are only a season away from being rookies themselves.

Look at the roster guy, it's a young team. I'd prefer to see a better veteran presence out there, I just can't think who it will come from.


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

The Toronto rookies when on the floor all together/

PF - 179
PA - 183

This is a better ratio then when they are not on the floor together.



Source: 82games.com


----------



## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

JuniorNoboa said:


> The Toronto rookies when on the floor all together/
> 
> PF - 179
> PA - 183
> ...


actually that's pretty increadable for a team with a 4-18 record.

Also, if I'm reading the info correctly this: James-Calderon-Graham-Bosh-Villanueva, is the second winnest lineup Sam put out there.


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I think shookem is correct.

What is the alternative to playing the 3 rooks? Who is on the bench that would make any real difference? I only see EWill and Alvin as positive vets that could help us. Both are injured. If they could play I think Sam would use them.

Jalen is done. Its more than a slump. He's mentally checked out and can't finish the basic scoring moves he has used for 15 years. He's too proud to miss shots on purpose and go scoreless. He is either in steep decline as a player and everyone is on to his limited arsenal of moves, or he is just so mentally depressed that his focus is completely gone. Whatever the case he has been useless since game 1.

Aaron and Loren are neutral moves to Hoff. Nothing gained there. If anything Hoff and Pape should get more minutes at C.

Bonner really has no role. Good player but doesn't fit now that Charlie is here and will take up big minutes. We have better SF's and he certainly isn't a C. So he plays the same spot as both Bosh and Charlie. Plus we have Slokar coming over. Something has to give at PF.

Toronto should have signed Kevin Willis this summer. He's still out there waiting for a call. Probably wants a contender though. Spurs should trade Nazr or Rasho and sign Willis.


----------



## MonsterBosh (Feb 9, 2005)

shookem & lucky777s

Both of you defend Mitchell's use of rookies on a team bereft of veteran talent. Therefore Mitchell cannot be criticized for his game coaching decisions because he is trapped with a team that cannot play consistently nor play as a team with much basketball IQ. It's a dumb team ....

I am not emotionally involve with the Raptors as a "fan" who must blindly support the team as others must do to make their lives bearable. I also watch the opposition teams and compare their team IQ to the Raptors ... and frankly I cannot see how this current crop of Raptors can develop to NBA contending standard in a reasonable time. 

Bringing in Keady is evidently an attempt to teach the rookies and scrubs how to play at a higher level. I think it's admirable but it will fail because most on the Raptors have limited upside to improve. Once we realize that and accept that reality, we will be better able to assess the Raptors .. instead of fantacizing and hoping that they will win so that fans can feel like winners.

The Raptors are a losing team for the next two seasons ... at least ... and now we must contemplate the loss of Bosh because there are better teams and situations for him and his future. When you think about it, the Raptors will be rebuilding for the next several seasons, and it seem that only rookies are available because proven veterans do not want to make a long term commitment to Toronto other than use is as a stepping stone or to finish their careers.

Maybe the Raptors should attract more good international players who want to play in the NBA. What do you think about that ??


----------



## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

MonsterBosh said:


> shookem & lucky777s
> 
> Both of you defend Mitchell's use of rookies on a team bereft of veteran talent. Therefore Mitchell cannot be criticized for his game coaching decisions because he is trapped with a team that cannot play consistently nor play as a team with much basketball IQ. It's a dumb team ....
> 
> ...


Well, duh, yes. I do think we should attempt to attract the best players, whether their from Siberia or Scarborough. That's it man. You solved all the Raptors problems. They need to get better players.

Anyways, I won't speak for Lucky777, but I've never said the Raptors were a trade or only a season away from being contendors. I realize that they will be hovering around the bottom of the league for at least one more season after this, and yes this is rock bottom.

I'm not sure who has denied that. Many will point out the positives and look toward the future, which most of the talk on this board is about. That makes sense though, you shouldn't think that that means that raptors fans follow blindly (sure some do).

After nearly every game tons of folks around here pick apart Sam's decision making. I, one for believe, he is one of the weakest play calling coaches out there. But as far as the rotations go, like I've said umpteen times in this thread, blame Babcock.

Check this out: The rooks prove it on the court 

I understand stand how someone can look at that and say 'but we're losing, they're not getting it done', but there is no way anyone, traded, signed or drafted was going to get it done for the Raps this season.

This team is doing exactly what it was designed to do. Lose and grow. Now maybe some feel that there is too much of one and not enough of the other, but the season is still young.


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I disagree on several counts.

I think the major re-building is almost complete. The old group is cleared out. The young assets have been accumulated. We are going into the 'team building' phase now. 

This summer will hopefully see us go into next season with the true 'young core' we want to take us forward. And hopefully the right trade will bring us the veteran leader we need in the form of a solid starting C or scoring wing player.

This season should tell us what we have in Villy and if he and Bosh can truly work together. We also have to make decisions on Slokar, Sow, Bonner, Ukic and MoP. Who is part of our future and who is not? What can we get for them this summer?

If no impact players are brought in via trade this summer we still have the next season to make a trade that sets us up for our Free Agent shopping in summer 2007. If the core is solid we should be able to find that final piece or 2 in free agency that can take us over the top. Meaning make the playoffs and possibly win a round the first year, and go farther in subsequent years. Be in the playoffs for 7 straight years. Hopefully make a finals appearance somewhere in there. Players who see that potential here, and the BIG money, will have no trouble coming to Toronto.

Worrying about Bosh is pointless. He's here for 2 more years minimum. Worrying about whether draftees want to be here is stupid. Its weak. They dont' call the shots, we do. They will like it just fine if they get to play and we win. VC got all the attention and glory he could handle playing here.

We need a plan. We need an identity for the team that we build around. Draft the players that fit that plan. Sign the FAs that fill out our roster and complete our team.

People talk about drafting talent over need. But that means you have to be willing to trade that talent to balance your roster. That means trading Graham, Villy, Ukic, Slokar, or whoever we pick this summer. People get attached to the talent we pick and don't want to give it up. But if it doesn't fit together then what's the point? In the end you have to build a team.

Is the team dumb or just inexperienced? Charlie has great instincts on offense, but none on D. I think he will get it, if he wants to. Hoff is showing much improved D. Bosh has so much pressure on him offensively that it may be slowing his progress on D. He's certainly not dumb. Joey needs development but seems to slowly be figuring it out.

Raps are 2 players away from being a very good team. One must be an all-star caliber player, who doesn't have to actually make the game (think Rip Hamilton, Sam Cassel quality). Someone to share the load down the stretch with Bosh. The other could be a defensive force such as a BenWallace, Mutombo, or Artest quality defender.


----------

