# I was wrong about Ginobili.



## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

I think he's just as good, if not better than Tony Parker. I wasn't sure before but I'm sure of it now. Parker has a great future in the league too but Ginobili is just fearless out there. I love the way the kid plays the game and I think he'll become a household name in the league next year.


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## JGKoblenz (Jul 19, 2002)

Nice to see that you can see now.  

Both are great players, and I'm saying it since the start of the season. The Spurs got a great and young backcourt with Parker and Manu.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

Yeah Manu is awesome, I think that next season thou, he might walk, he will be in same situation Arenas is in, unless the Spurs find a way to stay under the cap to sign him...

-Petey


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## benfica (Jul 17, 2002)

*Yes you were, that stinks*

Now you got to apologize to everybody in Argentina

www.argentina.com/viva/manu


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## Godkid1 (Aug 6, 2003)

why even compare - they are so different! and they have different roles in a game. to rock the house in their own way!:clap:


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## Fil (Jul 8, 2003)

they will still have enough money, because even how it is they still have a couple million left i beleive, plus mercer and hedo both come off and thats a combined 8 million... so they should have up to 10 million in cap even next year


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

I'd say Manu has a better chance of being an allstar then TP.


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## Ben1 (May 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bullet</b>!
> I'd say Manu has a better chance of being an allstar then TP.


I agree. :yes:


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## dsakilla (Jun 15, 2003)

> Yeah Manu is awesome, I think that next season thou, he might walk, he will be in same situation Arenas is in, unless the Spurs find a way to stay under the cap to sign him...



We got Ron Mercer's $7,000,000 contract coming off the books, so we should have a decent amount of money to offer to him next year.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> Parker has a great future in the league too but Ginobili is just fearless out there.


i think ginobili will be a great role player but he is getting way too much hype. last year(and he may have been a little hurt) he wasn't any better than stephen jackson. jackson played 8 more minutes so of course his stats are better, but if you look at stats per 48, their stats are almost the same. i actually like ginobili as a player, but i think he is way to hyped up.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: I was wrong about Ginobili.*



> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> last year(and he may have been a little hurt) .


Yeah. He was. Kind of hard to play his game with a bum ankle.
And since he was a rookie, he really had to earn his spot and trust with his teammates. So there are a lot of reasons that his stats were low, a lot of reasons why they will go up this year.

I think the spurs are so good, that it doesn't do a lot of good to measure them each individually stat wise. The wealth is obviously spread around quite a bit with that team. Everyone is pretty unselfish and team oriented. Just because there are people with better stats than certain spurs players doesn't mean, per se, that they are better.

They were the best team in the league last year and the NBA Champions. That was more than just tim duncan. Give respect where it's due.


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## Lethal Vertical (May 9, 2003)

why the hell would manu leave the spurs? He would be on a championship contender in SA....unlike the arenas situation...IMO ginobili would be stupid to leave as long as duncan is here....


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## Ben1 (May 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Lethal Vertical</b>!
> why the hell would manu leave the spurs? He would be on a championship contender in SA....unlike the arenas situation...IMO ginobili would be stupid to leave as long as duncan is here....


The only reason I think he'll leave Spurs would be for more $$$.


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

*Spurs cap space*



> Originally posted by <b>Fil</b>!
> they will still have enough money, because even how it is they still have a couple million left i beleive, plus mercer and hedo both come off and thats a combined 8 million... so they should have up to 10 million in cap even next year


This is true, but dont forget that the players' current contracts all scale up at a faster rate than the cap usually does. Next year the Spurs will have $22 (+/- cap increase/deacrease) million in cap space, 15 (+/- cap increase/deacrease) if they exercize their team options on Horry and Parker. However, then they only have Duncan, Nesterovic, Horry, Rose, Bowen, Parker and Carter under contract. They will need 5 more players. Two of the 5 players will probably be cheap draft picks, but the Spurs could spend the rest on extending Parker's contract and signing 3 other free agents (including Manu).

Check out hoopshype.com for info:

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/san_antonio.htm


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## beck253 (Jun 18, 2003)

*GINOBILI IS CLEARLY BETTER THAN S.JACKSON*



> i think ginobili will be a great role player but he is getting way too much hype. last year(and he may have been a little hurt) he wasn't any better than stephen jackson. jackson played 8 more minutes so of course his stats are better, but if you look at stats per 48, their stats are almost the same


In my opinion you can't judge players by looking only at their stats.
Manu is in the hig end in the league in what you can call BBall IQ, (or Vision, or Smart, etc.) and Jack, although has some great skills, is kind of the low end in that matter.
Remember that, even being a reserve , MAnu always closed the games .
And if you want to measure it in stats , I'll provide with one:
In playoffs: Spurs with manu: +250 (lead the NBA, even better than TD (+220).
Spurs with Jack -150.
That has a reason.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

*Re: GINOBILI IS CLEARLY BETTER THAN S.JACKSON*



> Originally posted by <b>beck253</b>!
> Manu is in the high end in the league in what you can call BBall IQ, (or Vision, or Smart, etc.) and Jack, although has some great skills, is kind of the low end in that matter.


how exactly does manu have a huge basketball iq, and jackson have none? their assist/turnover ratio is very similar(and that stat is usually used to backup basketball iq stuff). both are agressive players, and both play out of control at times and make bad passes. being foreign does not give manu a really high basketball iq and bill walton talking bad about jackson's play doesn't mean he has a low basketball iq.



> And if you want to measure it in stats , I'll provide with one:
> In playoffs: Spurs with manu: +250 (lead the NBA, even better than TD (+220).
> Spurs with Jack -150.


i bet that jackson played a lot more minutes with danny ferry than manu did. and jackson probably also played more minutes when duncan was out of the game. that is a good stat for manu. he was the best in the playoffs in +/- rating. that doesn't mean that he is a much better player than jackson(or really better at all).


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## UKfan4Life (Mar 5, 2003)

Manu Ginobili has earned my respect. He has quickly grown to become my favorite player in the NBA. This guy has such great potential, and I wouldn't put it past him to be an all-star at least once or twice before his career is over. :yes:


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## beck253 (Jun 18, 2003)

*Re: Re: GINOBILI IS CLEARLY BETTER THAN S.JACKSON*



> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> how exactly does manu have a huge basketball iq, and jackson have none? their assist/turnover ratio is very similar(and that stat is usually used to backup basketball iq stuff). both are agressive players, and both play out of control at times and make bad passes. being foreign does not give manu a really high basketball iq and bill walton talking bad about jackson's play doesn't mean he has a low basketball iq.
> 
> ...


5) THIS ARGUMENT JUST GOES THE OTHER WAY
so this makes me think you just didn't watch Spurs games at all:

Since Jackson was the starter, he played more of his minutes with T Duncan and the first unit and Manu mainly with the reserves (only exception the final 5 mins of games, when Manu was always in, with Bowen or Jack joining him depending on the game)

6) If you don't believe my analisis, take into account what Spurs Management and Coaches moves this offseason tells you about this matter: they denied Jackson the big fat contract he wanted, even brought bench players in his position and in each move they made it clear the wanted to mantain cap flex fo next year when guess who must be resigned (and i don't think he will cost that much to Spurs as many seems to think) 

However is very nice discussing wit someone without Smacks.


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## beck253 (Jun 18, 2003)

*SORRY*

Points 1-4 are mine, shouldn't have been in the quote section


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

*Re: SORRY*



> Originally posted by <b>beck253</b>!
> 1) First fo all: their assist/To ratio are not similar:
> Reg Season: Manu 1.4 Jackson 1.0
> Playoffs: Manu 2.0 Jackson 1.0


1.4 to 1.0 is pretty similar. there is a larger difference in the playoffs mainly because jackson's had one bad series turning the ball over. but in the playoffs manu was better holding onto the ball



> 2) I don't agree this is a good measure, cause it depends a lot how much you handle the ball, and doesn't take into account a lot of things that make teams win and lose games.do you really think their BBall IQ are in that order?


i brought that stat up because many people claim that manu has a much better basketball iq. i don't think that he does. jackson is considered a "turnover machine" when really during the regular season he only turned it over a little bit more than manu. basketball iq is a lot more than assist/turnover ratio. but if you watch jackson play, he is always trying to make plays and is pretty good at finding guys who would have easy baskets. he just can't always get them the ball or they drop it. but it's not like he has no idea what he doing. a lot of his turnovers are really only a couple inches away from being great plays.



> 3) I don't evaluate players skills taking into account the players nationality (and even less i waste my time listening to Walton), but the fact that you brought that up and the tone of your comments, makes me think that you do.


for some reason, many people seem to think that because a player is foreign, that they have a higher baskeball iq. i'm not saying that being foreign makes manu worse, i'm just saying that it doesn't make him better either. bill walton praising manu and talking bad about jackson pretty much the entire playoffs has had an effect on what a lot of people think about jackson. 



> 4) I think the best way to back up my point is just looking at the games carefully, you can't get it through papers and stas.


right. and watching the games, i think that jackson is better than ginobili. when ginobili wildly drives to the basket, it is considered aggressive and creative. when jackson wildly drives to the basket, it is "out of control". they are about equal players, it's just that manu gets the hype and jackson gets critisized.



> 5) THIS ARGUMENT JUST GOES THE OTHER WAY
> so this makes me think you just didn't watch Spurs games at all:
> 
> Since Jackson was the starter, he played more of his minutes with T Duncan and the first unit and Manu mainly with the reserves (only exception the final 5 mins of games, when Manu was always in, with Bowen or Jack joining him depending on the game)


i did not watch every spurs game. but i did watch a lot of the spurs and the majority of their playoff games. being the starter does not necessarily mean that he played more minutes with duncan. it means that he started games and played at the beginning with duncan. he may have played more with duncan, but his more minutes also could mean that he played more minutes without duncan too. and duncan was in most of the game anyway so everyone play a lot with duncan. my main point there had been that the +/- stat can be very misleading. manu had a great +/-. i was just saying that jackson probably played more with ferry because anytime ferry was in the game, the spurs got killed. it also makes he think that manu played most of his minutes with duncan because when playing without duncan, the spurs are not a very good team.



> 6) If you don't believe my analisis, take into account what Spurs Management and Coaches moves this offseason tells you about this matter: they denied Jackson the big fat contract he wanted, even brought bench players in his position and in each move they made it clear the wanted to mantain cap flex fo next year when guess who must be resigned (and i don't think he will cost that much to Spurs as many seems to think)


also take into account what the nba coach of the year did last year in the regular season and in the playoffs. 

i think that manu is a good player. it's just that the hype was getting way too much. one person said something about a max contract and people were talking about him making the all star team. that just isn't realistic for this year. and at the same time jackson(who was at least as good as manu last year) gets no love at all.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

He had an excellent showing, and only proves how he will get better. I don't think he will be an All-Star out in the West, he is playing at a packed position. 

-Petey


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## Nikos (Jun 5, 2002)

There is no way in hell Stephen Jackson has a higher bball or IQ than Manu Ginobili. As a matter of fact I think Manu has a higher basketball IQ than most guards in the NBA period.

Manu is a little out on control yes, and so is Jackson. Yes there regular season stats in terms of turnovers are very similiar but in the playoffs as you mentioned Manu had a 2:1 ratio, Jax had a 1:1 ratio of assist to turnovers. Thats a pretty big difference when comparing shooting guards. 

If you watch the games Manu is much more fundamental. Many of his turnovers are from risky passes and sometimes failed drive attempts. While Jacksons turnovers on the other hand start the fast break and give the other team an easy 2 pts. A turnover is a turnover yes, but Jax turnovers are so boneheaded at times it looks as though he is only 18-19 years old. 

Manu needs to bulk up a little and be able to finish drives against more physical defenders in the NBA. He is not acclimated yet. There were many drives where he would beat his defender to the spot and then sort of leave it just short because of a little contact. It was not like he wasn't quick enough.

Jackson is also a very nice slasher and was better at finishing drives (not neccesarily getting into the lane) than Gino.

It's not that Jax did worse than Manu last season --obviously he got more time because of Manu's injury -- its just Manu brings all the intagibles to the game. He makes the right pass, despite sometimes takes some bad risks.

Overall Manu has made some spectacular passes -- passes as good as any SG in the NBA could make. Other times those same passes are turnovers.

The point is Manu is even more inexerpienced than Jax. And with more NBA experience you will find Manu is a much more fundamental player. He makes the key plays (not neccesarily shots) on offense/defense and understands how to move without the ball and when to hit an open shooter. Jackson could do some of things as well just not quite as well as Manu could.

Jax was the better scorer last year -- but as I said with more experience Manu will score more and get more assists the more he touches the ball. 

A lot of players get out of control when they drive -- even the best of them. But when you watch Jax it makes you cringe because his turnovers are so ugly and they basically start the fastbreak for the other team (see NJ series and also Lakers etc..).


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Nikos</b>!
> There is no way in hell Stephen Jackson has a higher bball or IQ than Manu Ginobili. As a matter of fact I think Manu has a higher basketball IQ than most guards in the NBA period.


tell me exactly how to measure basketball iq. there isn't a way to measure it. it is all opinion. and i think jackson's basketball iq is just as high as manu's.



> Manu is a little out on control yes, and so is Jackson. Yes there regular season stats in terms of turnovers are very similiar but in the playoffs as you mentioned Manu had a 2:1 ratio, Jax had a 1:1 ratio of assist to turnovers. Thats a pretty big difference when comparing shooting guards.


yes, they are both a little out of control when they play. in the entire season, their assist/turnover ratios were similar. in the playoffs manu's was much better. but the playoffs are a lot smaller sample of games than the regular season. guys can have a great playoffs for one year but never do anything in the regular season.



> If you watch the games Manu is much more fundamental. Many of his turnovers are from risky passes and sometimes failed drive attempts. While Jacksons turnovers on the other hand start the fast break and give the other team an easy 2 pts. A turnover is a turnover yes, but Jax turnovers are so boneheaded at times it looks as though he is only 18-19 years old.


so it's ok if manu makes a risky pass and it's a turnover, but it's not ok if jackson does? and manu can have a crazy drive where he turns it over, but jackson can't? either they both make bonehead turnovers or they both make risky passes sometimes that are almost good. it can't just change because it is a different person passing the ball.



> Overall Manu has made some spectacular passes -- passes as good as any SG in the NBA could make. Other times those same passes are turnovers.


same with jackson.



> The point is Manu is even more inexerpienced than Jax. And with more NBA experience you will find Manu is a much more fundamental player.


wrong. how does jackson have more experience? this was pretty much his 1st year to get a lot of nba playing time. manu has played some of the highest level non-nba basketball there is. jackson really hasn't. if anything, i would say that jackson has less experience, but they are really probably equally experienced.



> A lot of players get out of control when they drive -- even the best of them. But when you watch Jax it makes you cringe because his turnovers are so ugly and they basically start the fastbreak for the other team (see NJ series and also Lakers etc..).


manu has some pretty ugly turnovers too. people just seem to forget about them because someone anoited manu a great player. 

everything that you have said bad about jackson pretty much applies to manu too. and all the things you have said good about manu are also pretty much true of jackson.


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## Nikos (Jun 5, 2002)

Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!

tell me exactly how to measure basketball iq. there isn't a way to measure it. it is all opinion. and i think jackson's basketball iq is just as high as manu's.


*Watch the actual games. You will see what I mean. Watch atleast 10-15 regular season games and all the playoff games and youll see exactly what I mean. Manu gets the ball to teamattes in the right spots. Duncan even SAID he loves the way Manu passes the ball to him the post and that he was the best teamatte at doing that since hes been in the NBA. Malik Rose even said that Manu made him a better player this season.

Also Manu is much better at coming off a pick and scoring on the drive. Everytime Duncan gave him a nice pick Manu always converted with a nice drive. Manu knows how to run the pick and roll very well, better than Jackson. 

IQ is knowing not to drive by tryin to jam between two defenders on the TOP OF THE KEY like Sjax did atleast 6-7 times in the playoffs alone. If you actually watch his drives a lot of them result in boneheaded turnovers that RESULT to 2pts for the other team almost 75% of the time. Manu's turns it over as well but not like Jax -- if you WATCH the turnovers youll see what I mean.*

Yes, they are both a little out of control when they play. in the entire season, their assist/turnover ratios were similar. in the playoffs manu's was much better. but the playoffs are a lot smaller sample of games than the regular season. guys can have a great playoffs for one year but never do anything in the regular season.

* Manu wasn't even healthy until mid Feb and he wasn't even close to 100% at any point of the regular season. He basically was limping until playoff time -- and before Febuary he never even really played more than 25 minutes in more than one or two games. Manu picked his game in the playoffs and getting extended minutes was new to him -- I think he did well under the circumstances -- as did Jax. *


so it's ok if manu makes a risky pass and it's a turnover, but it's not ok if jackson does? and manu can have a crazy drive where he turns it over, but jackson can't? either they both make bonehead turnovers or they both make risky passes sometimes that are almost good. it can't just change because it is a different person passing the ball.

* Yes it can change, as I said Jaxes turnovers SET THE FREAKING tempo against the Nets. I can remember his turnovers in two games against the Nets where his turnovers were automatic scores on the other end and basically started or extended NETS runs. Those turnovers were not even close -- they were flat out boneheaded drives that were not even remotely possible. That is boneheaded. Manu's drives he leaves short and once in a while will lose the ball or mis pass it -- but Jax turnovers are like a running back fumbling the ball except its at the top of the 3pt line or before he reaches the foul line.

Ask any SPURS fans and they will tell you how poor Jax handling is and how boneheaded his turnovers are. The guy has ice water in his veins but one thing he did not do well at ANY POINT this season was handle/dribble the ball. In the playoffs his turnovers did not change either.*



wrong. how does jackson have more experience? this was pretty much his 1st year to get a lot of nba playing time. manu has played some of the highest level non-nba basketball there is. jackson really hasn't. if anything, i would say that jackson has less experience, but they are really probably equally experienced.

* As I said Manu was basically limping until Feb/March came around. Jackson made the most of his opportunity and did very well. He deserves credit for that. However Ginobili is the better overall player. Manu has more international experience but Sjax has been through NBA training camps (Manu missed his because of his ankle injury in September that hounded him all season).

Jackson had 2 years to learn a few things but he never got the minutes. He might have got even less minutes this season if Manu was healthy from day one. Not a knock on Jackson -- he made the most of his opportunity and he deserved to start in the playoffs as well. But this was a career year for Jax -- don't expect him to increase his overall game and scoring ALOT for the next few years. I highly doubt this will happen. He might increase his scoring a bit on a bad team -- but he does have a lot of holes in his game -- desite him being a big game player. 

*



manu has some pretty ugly turnovers too. people just seem to forget about them because someone anoited manu a great player. 

* Ugly maybe, but not nearly as ugly as Jax's. As I said Jax turnovers set the tempo for the other team. In the Nets series I can distinctly remember how bad his turnovers on top of the key were. When he turned it over it was an easy 2pts for the other team. Manu might have had some bad ones but not at the frequency or the pathetic fashion in which Jax had many of his TO's. Watch the games and youll see what I mean. Watch them again -- watch the regular season games. Jax has been this way all season and was even worse in the playoffs.*

everything that you have said bad about jackson pretty much applies to manu too. and all the things you have said good about manu are also pretty much true of jackson. 

* Jackson is a turnover machine -- Manu is not. Jackson has crappy handles -- Manu does not. Jackson makes poor decisions and has a low basketball IQ (not a great passer, post entry passer, awful and frequent turnovers, awful shot selection, and out of control a lot more than Manu). Also when hes not making his outside shot his game is no where near Manus level. Manu made differences in games when not even scoring -- Jax rarely did so. Manu has come up with several late game clutch steals against the likes of Ray Allen, Kobe Bryant, Jason Kidd, Michael Finley. 

Jackson is a big time clutch player no doubt. He was the better scorer and made the most of his opportunities. Manu did not deserve to start in the playoffs in all likelihood. But Jackson is not the same player as Manu. They both are fearless shooters, slashers, athletic, and can make a good pass off the drive -- but aside from that they are different and the most glaring is BASKETBALL IQ. The decision making skills. The ability to pass the ball. The ability to make things happen when not making shots by either making key steals, making the correct pass, and not being out of control. 

Right now Jax is the better scorer until Manu gets more chance to shine in his starting role this upcoming season. However Manu does a lot other things better than Jax. Manu is also a better defender -- although Jax was indeed a solid defender.

Overall: Manu is the better passer, better defender, better decision maker

Jax is the better scorer as of last season and is longer

I can't think of too many things Jax is better at except for maybe hitting the 3pt shot -- but percentage wise Manu is better -- although Jax took more and made more big three point shots than manu did throughout the year. 


That is the difference between them. Both are fearless slashers and shooters in the clutch -- aside from that Manu is pretty the smarter player and just as athletic (maybe moreso). 

It would have been nice to keep them both -- but the Spurs got Turkoglu and did not want to give up Bowen. Shows that they did not want to guruntee Jackson a starting spot. Well see what happens this season with the Spurs swingmen rotation. Should be interesting.

All in all Manu is just the better player. Hes not an all star or anything right now -- but he has potential to be a very nice 2nd/3rd star for the Spurs along Duncan while also making the clutch play. 

*


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## nyksju (Feb 11, 2003)

*wat position is manu best suited for?*

the sg or sf


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

*Re: wat position is manu best suited for?*



> Originally posted by <b>nyksju</b>!
> the sg or sf


Definitely SG -- I don't know if he got minutes at SF or not, but his position is shooting guard.


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