# Bynum: "I understand [Kobe's comments] were just coming out of frustration"



## Sean (Jun 7, 2002)

> SI.com
> 
> "You don't really know what to do when you hear something like that," Bynum said of Bryant's barbs and being mentioned in trade rumors. "I was in kind of a messed-up situation, being only 19 years old. It makes you feel good that other people want you, but it also makes you feel good that the Lakers didn't pull the trigger.
> 
> ...



more in the link above...


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

i haven't been able to watch many laker games, but man.. he has improved a lot.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Improved a lot is an understatement. He's been tremendous for this Lakers team right now.


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

Yeah, he's really been great for us this year. I'd really like to see the Lakers feed it to him down low more, as I think there is alot of easy baskets to be had with him down low, and make him the second option, while having Odom play his all around game, and be the third option.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

Kurt said:


> Yeah, he's really been great for us this year. I'd really like to see the Lakers feed it to him down low more, as I think there is alot of easy baskets to be had with him down low, and make him the second option, while having Odom play his all around game, and be the third option.


Odom won't work as the #3 option. He doesn't work well off the ball. He plays best when he is the #1 option, which is why he had his best year in Miami and plays so well when Kobe is out.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> Odom won't work as the #3 option. He doesn't work well off the ball. He plays best when he is the #1 option, which is why he had his best year in Miami and plays so well when Kobe is out.


How I wish Caron Butler was still on the team. He would be such a good fit with Kobe and Bynum.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

AB has a lot more class and humility than Kobe, so it doesn't surprise that he'd take the high road on this.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

Drewbs said:


> How I wish Caron Butler was still on the team. He would be such a good fit with Kobe and Bynum.


Yes, he would be a nice fit wouldn't he? :sad:


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Good to see that they hashed it out and are playing well together!


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> Odom won't work as the #3 option. He doesn't work well off the ball. He plays best when he is the #1 option, which is why he had his best year in Miami and plays so well when Kobe is out.


I understand that, but he isn't going to be the #1 option. Have him be the #3 option when Kobe and Bynum are out there with him, then when Kobe goes out have him be the #1 option regardless if Bynum is out there with him.


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## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

Bynum is developing into a monster.

He needs to take more than 8 shots a game which is all he seems to get. Why the **** cant this team make good entry passes? No other team in the league seems to have the problems we have getting the ball to their big man.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

elcap15 said:


> Bynum is developing into a monster.
> 
> He needs to take more than 8 shots a game which is all he seems to get. Why the **** cant this team make good entry passes? No other team in the league seems to have the problems we have getting the ball to their big man.


It boggles the mind


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

As the season goes along I think his offense will continue to develop. Right now most of his points are coming on put-backs, but when he gets more adept with his post moves he's going to become a go-to option in this offense, I have no doubt about that.


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## ceejaynj (Oct 9, 2005)

He has a nice jump hook within 5 feet, but he really has to develop his turn around jumper.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Bynum was this good in November of last year right?

As for this thread, Kobe likes to play some sage mentor to OJ Mayo (hillariously giving bad advice) yet he trashes his own 19 year old teammate. Pathetic.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> As for this thread, Kobe likes to play some sage mentor to OJ Mayo (hillariously giving bad advice) yet he trashes his own 19 year old teammate. Pathetic.


The established star trashing the young high school kid...who does that remind me of? Oh yeah, Shaq.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> The established star trashing the young high school kid...who does that remind me of? Oh yeah, Shaq.


As far as I can remember, Shaq never bashed Kobe when he was a young, dumb kid taking terrible shots and turning the ball over early in his career. The bashing came later, after Kobe's ego began to swell and he started talking s*it about Shaq.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

Showtime87 said:


> As far as I can remember, Shaq never bashed Kobe when he was a young, dumb kid taking terrible shots and turning the ball over early in his career. The bashing came later, after Kobe's ego began to swell and he started talking s*it about Shaq.


Kobe needed to say something about Shaq. I mean honestly was he supposed to stand aside while Shaq came into every season out of shape?


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## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

Showtime87 said:


> As far as I can remember, Shaq never bashed Kobe when he was a young, dumb kid taking terrible shots and turning the ball over early in his career. The bashing came later, after Kobe's ego began to swell and he started talking s*it about Shaq.


"What is this, an experiment? Nobody waited for me when I came into the league. The pressure was there as soon as I started to play. That's my job. Why wait? I'm not going to be here that long that I want to wait years for him to figure it out." -Shaq speaking on Kobe.

Oh and this came in Kobe's 3rd season when he was 20 years old.

Sound familiar?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> The established star trashing the young high school kid...who does that remind me of? Oh yeah, Shaq.


Have you noticed how Shaq loves 99.999% of his teammates?

Watch him clown around on the bench with Harper, Shaw, Dennis Scott, Ho Grant, Antoine Walker... watch him praise D. Wade and call Kobe "his idol" in the press. Watch him befriend scrub rookies like Mark Madsen.

Shaq trashed Kobe because as Kobe is proving again he is just a narcissitic dick. Ask any of their common teammates and I bet you at least 80% side with Shaq.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> "What is this, an experiment? Nobody waited for me when I came into the league. The pressure was there as soon as I started to play. That's my job. Why wait? I'm not going to be here that long that I want to wait years for him to figure it out." -Shaq speaking on Kobe.
> 
> Oh and this came in Kobe's 3rd season when he was 20 years old.
> 
> Sound familiar?


By this time, Kobe was a full-time starter and was playing like a selfish idiot, and that comment isn't anywhere near as disparaging as some of things that came out of Kobe's mouth.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> Have you noticed how Shaq loves 99.999% of his teammates?
> 
> Watch him clown around on the bench with Harper, Shaw, Dennis Scott, Ho Grant, Antoine Walker... watch him praise D. Wade and call Kobe "his idol" in the press. Watch him befriend scrub rookies like Mark Madsen.
> 
> Shaq trashed Kobe because as Kobe is proving again he is just a narcissitic dick. Ask any of their common teammates and I bet you at least 80% side with Shaq.


Shaq trashes anyone who doesn't suck up to him. Sure Kobe is a jerk and he tried to get teammate traded, but Shaq has done the same thing.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> Shaq trashes anyone who doesn't suck up to him. Sure Kobe is a jerk and he tried to get teammate traded, but Shaq has done the same thing.


You say all his teammates suck up to him, I say they enjoy his company.

Maybe that's Kobe's problem. He expects Bynum, Atkins, Samaki Walker, Malone, Payton, Shaq to bow down and suck up to him.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> You say all his teammates suck up to him, I say they enjoy his company.
> 
> Maybe that's Kobe's problem. He expects Bynum, Atkins, Samaki Walker, Malone, Payton, Shaq to bow down and suck up to him.


I never said all his teammates suck up to him. I said people who don't get trashed. And that includes guys like Tex Winter. But I guess Tex is a narcissist.

Maybe you are right about Kobe. All I said was Shaq does the same things. Guess you can't handle Shaq being criticized. Much like the big guy himself.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Have you noticed how Shaq loves 99.999% of his teammates?
> 
> Watch him clown around on the bench with Harper, Shaw, Dennis Scott, Ho Grant, Antoine Walker... watch him praise D. Wade and call Kobe "his idol" in the press. Watch him befriend scrub rookies like Mark Madsen.
> 
> Shaq trashed Kobe because as Kobe is proving again he is just a narcissitic dick. Ask any of their common teammates and I bet you at least 80% side with Shaq.


This is pathetically transparent excuse-making for Shaq. 



Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> Maybe you are right about Kobe. All I said was Shaq does the same things. Guess you can't handle Shaq being criticized. Much like the big guy himself.


Here is the right answer.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> I never said all his teammates suck up to him. I said people who don't get trashed. And that includes guys like Tex Winter. But I guess Tex is a narcissist.
> 
> Maybe you are right about Kobe. All I said was Shaq does the same things. Guess you can't handle Shaq being criticized. Much like the big guy himself.


And all I said as far as I know Kobe is the only teammate he trashed, and lots of Kobes teammates don't get along with him. Tex Winter is not a teammate, either is Jerry Buss, Mike Bibby, Erick Dampier. What are you talking about?

I don't see anyone else bashing Bynum. I see lots of other people getting along with Bynum.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> Have you noticed how Shaq loves 99.999% of his teammates?
> 
> Watch him clown around on the bench with Harper, Shaw, Dennis Scott, Ho Grant, Antoine Walker... watch him praise D. Wade and call Kobe "his idol" in the press. Watch him befriend scrub rookies like Mark Madsen.
> 
> Shaq trashed Kobe because as Kobe is proving again he is just a narcissitic dick. Ask any of their common teammates and I bet you at least 80% side with Shaq.


I've noticed Shaq early in his career get jealous of Penny because he was getting a lot of attention for his game.

I don't understand why you worship a ex Laker that made no effort to stay in shape when he is the highest paid player on the team. A lovable ******* that makes movies like shazam and throughout his career was unable to defend a simple pick and roll because he gives no effort to it. When Shaq makes the same comments, you completely ignore it. I'm not saying Kobe is likable, but that he is always ready to play at a high level every game. Unlike your biggest hero shaq, who makes idiotic comments just because he was born with size and agility.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

I suspect that Bynum was called out because he was notoriously not well conditioned last year. Can you control your skill? No. But you can control your fitness. Kobe is flawed but he gets along well fine with guys like Critt or Caron, who show intensity and effort in their game. He gets along well hard nosed players like Jason Kidd. In fact, the only players he ever gets pissed off at, are those that don't show the same desire for excellence on the court.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

KennethTo said:


> I suspect that Bynum was called out because he was notoriously not well conditioned last year. Can you control your skill? No. But you can control your fitness. Kobe is flawed but he gets along well fine with guys like Critt or Caron, who show intensity and effort in their game. He gets along well hard nosed players like Jason Kidd. In fact, the only players he ever gets pissed off at, are those that don't show the same desire for excellence on the court.


And the only teammates Shaq doesn't get along with are named Kobe.

BTW I didn't bring up Shaq in this thread. And I am also tired of you calling him my hero or me a Shaq-lover and whatnot when you like Kobe a lot more than I like Shaq.

PS Karl Malone was hard nosed showed intesity and effort. Ask him how he feels about Dick #24.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

KennethTo said:


> I've noticed Shaq early in his career get jealous of Penny because he was getting a lot of attention for his game.


Also the fact that it's documented that he:

1) Wanted Hill out as Magic coach.
2) Wanted Eddie Jones gone for his playoff choking and NVE for ball hogging.
3) Routinely feuded with Phil during and after the title years, for all sorts of reasons.
4) Badmouthed Jerry Buss (who would have paid him more than Riley) after being traded, for nearly two years.

The list goes on. But there's also the fact that Shaq routinely badmouthed Kobe for nearly two years, including the Lakers organization too btw, and wouldn't even speak his name when asked direct questions. Kobe, of course, did just the opposite. Tells you all you need to know about the guy. 

But we all know what's up here.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Shaq the good neighbor: http://www.miamibeach411.com/news/archives/2005/08/shaq_and_neighb.html



> Neighbors are complaining that the floodlights from Shaq's Star Island home are ruining their views.
> 
> "My problem is I've got this beautiful condo with a great view and I've lost my view thanks to Shaquille O'Neal. It feels like I'm living across from a baseball stadium and that's not what I paid for. I paid a lot of money for this property" says Miami Beach condo owner Kim Suereth.
> 
> ...


Clearly he only feuds with Kobe Bryant.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

I think on a personal level Kobe and Shaq are both douche bags. Each one brought there own inherent dramas to the scene. 

I couldn't stand Shaq's unwillingness to really get in shape in the off season. I didn't like his attitude towards getting paid more for declining, than getting paid what he deserved. I detested the fact that he never put in any effort to become some what coherent at the free throw line, a problem that keeps him out of the final minutes of games now. 

I am sickened by Kobe's selfish nature. Even when when the guy blows the game at the end because of poor shot selection, and poor passing, he still blames anything and everyone but himself. (There have been many times when his team was playing well, that he didn't trust at the end). I detest his request to be traded from the team he in a sense helped create. I hate that Kobe is a liar and a snitch.

That being said, if I look at both players and what I like about them on the basketball court. I don't want to give an aging Shaq that fat contract. If it was the same Shaq that came to the Laker's. Youthful, MDE, etc. I'd probably have kept him. But lets face it, he was going down hill here, and he really sank there(Miami). 

Kobe on the court is one of the best players in the NBA. He is dedicated in the off season, and desires winning above anything else. He is exciting to watch, gifted defensively (when he decides to play it), and one of the most dominant offensive players to ever come to the NBA. I'm fine with keeping him here. And think it's the best situation the Lakers could have picked at the time.

The truth is rather Kobe first or Shaq first fans will admit it. Both players are littered with character flaws and problems. Just because you like one of them better, doesn't mean they aren't without faults. And in the end it's about winning and money. Basketball isn't about Mr. Congeniality, it's about who is going to get you more wins. And Shaq isn't going to get this team any wins, he can't even help Miami who is a better team get wins anymore. 

So I'm fine with Kobe staying. And if he wants to be traded again, next season. I'm fine with trading him as long as we get decent talent in return.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> And all I said as far as I know Kobe is the only teammate he trashed, and lots of Kobes teammates don't get along with him. Tex Winter is not a teammate, either is Jerry Buss, Mike Bibby, Erick Dampier. What are you talking about?
> 
> I don't see anyone else bashing Bynum. I see lots of other people getting along with Bynum.


I never limited it to just Shaq's teammates. I said he trashes anyone who doesn't suck up to him. 

Have you ever seen anyone else trash Tex?

If you are trying to convince me Kobe is a jerk, don't bother. I already agree with you.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

EHL said:


> Shaq the good neighbor: http://www.miamibeach411.com/news/archives/2005/08/shaq_and_neighb.html
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly he only feuds with Kobe Bryant.


Nope.

Shaq only fueds with TEAMMATES named Kobe Bryant.

Please read what I have been writing the entire thread.

Do you know what a strawman argument is? If I say Shaq gets along with every teammate but Kobe and you point out he got in a fist fight with the team ankle taper or that he is a bad cook that doesn't address what I said.

Teammates are on a different level than opposing players, your boss, your neighbors. Teammates are supposed to go to war with each other, not bash each other.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Nope.
> 
> Shaq only fueds with TEAMMATES named Kobe Bryant.
> 
> ...


Why are you still beating this dead horse, JI?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> Why are you still beating this dead horse, JI?


Cause wilt the stilt brought it up and the usual Kobe defense strawmans came out.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> I think on a personal level Kobe and Shaq are both douche bags. Each one brought there own inherent dramas to the scene.
> 
> I couldn't stand Shaq's unwillingness to really get in shape in the off season. I didn't like his attitude towards getting paid more for declining, than getting paid what he deserved. I detested the fact that he never put in any effort to become some what coherent at the free throw line, a problem that keeps him out of the final minutes of games now.
> 
> ...


Post of the thread.


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## Rentaponcho (Jun 30, 2006)

Bynum has been shooting at a very high percentage this year i believe over 50%, if he got more looks down low their is no doubt he could be averaging at least 20ppg if he took at least 15-18 shots per game.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Nope.
> 
> Shaq only fueds with TEAMMATES named Kobe Bryant.
> 
> ...


Except Shaq has indeed fought with other teammates or wanted them traded (Penny) besides Kobe, so your continued parroting of that line is bunk, for one. And secondly, saying teammates are different is just another made-up excuse for Shaq; ignoring the fact that he has trashed his _coach_ (arguably more important than your teammates) as well as Tex Winters for god sakes, who no one trashes, as Wilt pointed out. 

Of course, you haven't (and won't) acknowledge any of these realities of Shaq's flaws, all very comparable to the issues Kobe has had with teammates, his stubbornness and ego, his ballhogging and not playing within the team concept rubbing teammates the wrong way at times, etc. It's fine to acknowledge that those are Kobe's flaws, and it's perfectly fine to talk about, except you won't apply the same critique to Shaq. So fronting like you're being anywhere near reasonable or fair in all of this is, as I said, pathetically transparent.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

EHL said:


> Except Shaq has indeed fought with other teammates or wanted them traded (Penny) besides Kobe, so your continued parroting of that line is bunk, for one. And secondly, saying teammates are different is just another made-up excuse for Shaq; ignoring the fact that he has trashed his _coach_ (arguably more important than your teammates) as well as Tex Winters for god sakes, who no one trashes, as Wilt pointed out.


I don't recall Shaq wanting Penny traded. Got proof? 

He was mad that Penny was getting special treatment and respect over him and HE left town, he didn't ask Penny to leave.

I disagree that a coach is more important than your teammates, that comment can only be made by someone who never played team sports. The coach is your damn boss. If you have ever worked for someone I would be shocked if you never trashed your boss. It's not a excuse, it's a knowledge of how competitive team sports work.

On a team no one is above your teammates.


> Of course, you haven't (and won't) acknowledge any of these realities of Shaq's flaws, all very comparable to the issues Kobe has had with teammates, his stubbornness and ego, his ballhogging and not playing within the team concept rubbing teammates the wrong way at times, etc. It's fine to acknowledge that those are Kobe's flaws, and it's perfectly fine to talk about, except you won't apply the same critique to Shaq. So fronting like you're being anywhere near reasonable or fair in all of this is, as I said, pathetically transparent.


All I said was something critical about Kobe that even Wilt agreed with, yet he brought out the same old tired Shaq thing again which does nothing to refute what I said. If you guys are so tired of discussing him why do you keep bringing him up? Could it possibly be the reason I bring up Kobe's flaws and not Shaqs be that this is a LAKER message board and Shaq plays for the Heat?

Or am I doomed to have to answer a barrage of Shaq questions every time I say something critical about Kobe? If you can't prove what I am saying wrong without bringing up Shaq strawmans does that make me right? Or do you agree that Kobe is a douche and just want to say Shaq is to?

Shaq doesn't play for this team anymore, it's time to move on.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> I don't recall Shaq wanting Penny traded. Got proof?
> 
> He was mad that Penny was getting special treatment and respect over him and HE left town, he didn't ask Penny to leave.
> 
> ...


I find you saying it's time to move on to be rather ironic.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> I find you saying it's time to move on to be rather ironic.



I find that Sophia Vergara looks better than Vida Guerra.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> I find that Sophia Vergara looks better than Vida Guerra.


I find that is something we can both agree on.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> I don't recall Shaq wanting Penny traded. Got proof?
> 
> He was mad that Penny was getting special treatment and respect over him and HE left town, he didn't ask Penny to leave.


I'll try to find a link for you. 

Though, it's a little confusing when you say "Shaq only fueds with TEAMMATES named Kobe Bryant" and then turn around and concede that he fought with Penny and wanted out cause of him. It weakens your argument that Kobe was the only teammate Shaq fought with.



> I disagree that a coach is more important than your teammates, that comment can only be made by someone who never played team sports. The coach is your damn boss. If you have ever worked for someone I would be shocked if you never trashed your boss. It's not a excuse, it's a knowledge of how competitive team sports work.


Please, I've played organized sports for 20 years. If you're going to make a claim about me at least have the first clue about what you're talking about. Trashing the coach publicly is easily the dumbest thing you can do as a teammate. Trashing teammates themselves is a different dynamic (and yes, destructive too). But I'm not surprised you, yet again, fail to acknowledge Shaq's mistakes when he trashed Phil and Tex. Par for the course for you. 

And I find it ironic that you say you'd be "surprised" if I never trashed a boss in the workplace, yet fail to acknowledge that trashing your coworkers is easily as likely and, in fact, carries no where near the same consequences if word gets out of the former. 



> On a team no one is above your teammates.


...except your coach. 



> All I said was something critical about Kobe that even Wilt agreed with, yet he brought out the same old tired Shaq thing again which does nothing to refute what I said. If you guys are so tired of discussing him why do you keep bringing him up? Could it possibly be the reason I bring up Kobe's flaws and not Shaqs be that this is a LAKER message board and Shaq plays for the Heat?
> 
> Or am I doomed to have to answer a barrage of Shaq questions every time I say something critical about Kobe? If you can't prove what I am saying wrong without bringing up Shaq strawmans does that make me right? Or do you agree that Kobe is a douche and just want to say Shaq is to?
> 
> Shaq doesn't play for this team anymore, it's time to move on.


You were perfectly willing to engage in the Shaq discussion, I had nothing to do with it's original inception. And then you started making excuses for him. All of which were easily debunked here, yet you still continue to detest a lifelong Laker in Kobe Bryant far more than you detest Shaq, no longer a Laker. I find that pretty sad, in the extreme.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

EHL said:


> I'll try to find a link for you.
> 
> Though, it's a little confusing when you say "Shaq only fueds with TEAMMATES named Kobe Bryant" and then turn around and concede that he fought with Penny and wanted out cause of him. It weakens your argument that Kobe was the only teammate Shaq fought with.


The marriage was bad and instead of fighting in front of kids he bailed. Kobe trashed a kid he is trying to win games with now.



> Please, I've played organized sports for 20 years. If you're going to make a claim about me at least have the first clue about what you're talking about. Trashing the coach publicly is easily the dumbest thing you can do as a teammate. Trashing teammates themselves is a different dynamic (and yes, destructive too). But I'm not surprised you, yet again, fail to acknowledge Shaq's mistakes when he trashed Phil and Tex. Par for the course for you.


Nope. Again all I said is that's it different. I highly disagree that it's more destructive. People in power coach, boss, president of the USA, David Stern expect criticism regardless of what they do. Your teammate is your partner. When you played organized sports did you and your teammates not talk **** about the coach behind closed doors after a rough practice? Hell that's half the point of "players only" meetings.



> And I find it ironic that you say you'd be "surprised" if I never trashed a boss in the workplace, yet fail to acknowledge that trashing your coworkers is easily as likely and, in fact, carries no where near the same consequences if word gets out of the former.


Is that really a bad argument? The boss is the one giving you orders, discipline. How is hard to see why it's more likely to trash a boss than a co-worker? If you fail to grasp that argument than I am not only surprised, but unwilling to go any further.



> ...except your coach.


Ask the soliders in Afghanistan who they would rather die for, their trench mate or president Bush.



> You were perfectly willing to engage in the Shaq discussion, I had nothing to do with it's original inception. And then you started making excuses for him. All of which were easily debunked here, yet you still continue to detest a lifelong Laker in Kobe Bryant far more than you detest Shaq, no longer a Laker. I find that pretty sad, in the extreme.


What excuses? The criticisms about Shaq I never excused, I simply stated I didn't find them important. He pisses off some millionaire condo owners, I don't give a **** really. 

There are many reasons why I like Shaq over Kobe. One of them is because Shaq IS an a-hole... but it's to people I hate like the Queens, Mike Bibby, David Robinson... he talked **** about our rivals and dunked all over them. I like that aspect. I don't like Buss anymore either so who cares what Shaq said to his pedophile ***. Outside of him asking that Nick be dealt I can't think of anything he has done to poison the franchise. Kobe has a much longer rap sheet and is largely responsible for the state of the supporting cast he despises.

Also I again think it's unfair for raging Kobe fans to come in and call me biased against Shaq. Check yourself first. 

Now if you are impartial and want to say something, go ahead.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> There are many reasons why I like Shaq over Kobe. One of them is because Shaq IS an a-hole... but it's to people I hate like the Queens, Mike Bibby, David Robinson... he talked **** about our rivals and dunked all over them. I like that aspect. I don't like Buss anymore either so who cares what Shaq said to his pedophile ***. Outside of him asking that Nick be dealt I can't think of anything he has done to poison the franchise. Kobe has a much longer rap sheet and is largely responsible for the state of the supporting cast he despises.


For the last f****** time:
- Shaq has always dogged training as a Laker (till the infamous "i got injured in company time, i'll heal in company time);
- Shaq wanted to get payed when he wasn't deserving the money he demanded;
- For the last 2 years they played together, Kobe was voted as the MVP of the team;
- Shaq would not concede that the Lakers' were no longer HIS team, but Shaq's and Kobe's team;
- Shaq was The Franchise Player, and yet he was not humble enough to play the team game;
- Shaq is a known liar: "i will only play for Phil Jackson", "I'll retire before i'm nor able to be myself on the court", etc., etc.;
- Shaq badmouthed the Franchise and the fams after he got traded.

Jamel, your claim is moot: had the Lakers recieve more from Shaq than Odom/Butler/Atkins, and you would be singing a different tune... and so would we, considering the Lakers suck.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> For the last f****** time:
> - Shaq has always dogged training as a Laker (till the infamous "i got injured in company time, i'll heal in company time);
> - Shaq wanted to get payed when he wasn't deserving the money he demanded;
> - For the last 2 years they played together, Kobe was voted as the MVP of the team;
> ...


What provoked this? You just made a bullet list of points that had nothing to do with what I said. You seem to be discussing the Shaq trade, when me and EHL were discussing Shaq's likability amongst teammates.

You forgot:

- Shaq is black
- Shaq is bald
- Sophia Vergara is hotter than Vida Guerra
- I love lamp

And I wouldn't of traded Shaq for anything. Wouldn't of traded Horry for anything either. I don't want to trade Lamar. Don't pretend to know me. I'm as unpredictable as they come.

Here is what is predictable, when I say something critical of Kobe you guys bring up Shaq.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> What provoked this? You just made a bullet list of points that had nothing to do with what I said. You seem to be discussing the Shaq trade, when me and EHL were discussing Shaq's likability amongst teammates.
> 
> You forgot:
> 
> ...


You are being intelectually dishonest, JI, if i may say so... If you want to bash Kobe, be right ahead. I can't stand the f****r myself. But with you it's always the same old "If Kobe hadn't rid Shaq out of town" yadayada. It's old news, man. Get over it.

You want to discuss mr. Kobe Bryant, you are intitled to. Just remember it has nothing to do with what happened 3/4 years ago.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> But with you it's always the same old "If Kobe hadn't rid Shaq out of town" yadayada. It's old news, man. Get over it.


I didn't say that once in this entire thread. You just assumed that.

BTW Atkins didn't come in the Shaq trade. B. Grant and Jordan Farmar did.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> I didn't say that once in this entire thread. You just assumed that.


With you, bro, that's implicit.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> The marriage was bad and instead of fighting in front of kids he bailed. Kobe trashed a kid he is trying to win games with now.


So Shaq and Penny didn't feud now? I really can't help you if you don't know that they fought with each other while they were teammates. Maybe not as bad as the Kobe-Shaq feud, but it still existed. 



> Nope. Again all I said is that's it different. I highly disagree that it's more destructive. People in power coach, boss, president of the USA, David Stern expect criticism regardless of what they do. Your teammate is your partner. When you played organized sports did you and your teammates not talk **** about the coach behind closed doors after a rough practice? Hell that's half the point of "players only" meetings.


No actually, we were more likely to talk **** about each other than the coach, because the coach either intimidated us or we didn't want to feel his wrath. I've seen a lot more teammates trash each other than their coaches. In fact, I thought this was a pretty well known dynamic. 

But see, again, you're making excuses for Shaq trashing Phil and Tex publicly, _while he was still a Laker_. Yet you compare that to Kobe trashing Bynum to anonymous people (which is still bad, but every bit as comparable to what Shaq has done during his career). 




> Is that really a bad argument? The boss is the one giving you orders, discipline. How is hard to see why it's more likely to trash a boss than a co-worker? If you fail to grasp that argument than I am not only surprised, but unwilling to go any further.


Again, I can't really help that you're so unwilling to admit Shaq's faults that you'll go as far to say it's work to trash co-workers/teammates than it is to trash bosses/coaches. It's pretty well known that it's worse to trash those you take orders from; e.g. you don't trash your commanding officer if you're just some jarhead in the military, especially publicly like Shaq did. It's more likely you trash your fellow jarheads in front of them. Get it?



> Ask the soliders in Afghanistan who they would rather die for, their trench mate or president Bush.


Yes, they'd rather die for their trenchmate; except that's exactly what makes criticism of your fellow teammates far more allowable than a less close bond between yourself and your boss/coach/commander. You're just proving my point now. 



> What excuses? The criticisms about Shaq I never excused, I simply stated I didn't find them important. He pisses off some millionaire condo owners, I don't give a **** really.
> 
> There are many reasons why I like Shaq over Kobe. One of them is because Shaq IS an a-hole... but it's to people I hate like the Queens, Mike Bibby, David Robinson... he talked **** about our rivals and dunked all over them. I like that aspect. I don't like Buss anymore either so who cares what Shaq said to his pedophile ***. Outside of him asking that Nick be dealt I can't think of anything he has done to poison the franchise. Kobe has a much longer rap sheet and is largely responsible for the state of the supporting cast he despises.


Again, despite evidence of Shaq feuding with teammates like Penny or NVE and/or asking for them to be traded, you originally stated that Shaq only had problems with one teammate, Kobe, a out-right falsehood. Yet you here, right now, continue to claim Kobe's rap sheet is far worse despite Shaq trashing Phil, Tex, and Buss, asking NVE (and I think Penny) to be traded or outright feuded with, among other things. Yet Kobe's rap sheet is longer when he's never asked for anyone to be outright traded that I'm aware of, and certainly never trashed Phil or Tex. He did trash Buss this summer, though still nowhere near as bad as Shaq's 2-3 years of disrespect. 



> Also I again think it's unfair for raging Kobe fans to come in and call me biased against Shaq. Check yourself first.
> 
> Now if you are impartial and want to say something, go ahead.


I'm calling it like it is, cause I'm under no delusion that Kobe's rap sheet is long, just as long as Shaq's in many pathetic ways. I'm not the guy saying Kobe's rap sheet is "far longer" or that Kobe is responsible for the makeup of the team (and not the Lakers FO apparently); you're saying that.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

EHL said:


> So Shaq and Penny didn't feud now? I really can't help you if you don't know that they fought with each other while they were teammates. Maybe not as bad as the Kobe-Shaq feud, but it still existed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

^ It's OK to admit when you're wrong.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

EHL said:


> ^ It's OK to admit when you're wrong.


I did.

The most shocking was the stuff on how a team works. Those years I spent playing D-1 basketball I didn't understand team dynamics. No wonder I didn't even get an invite to a NBA training camp!


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

^ So now you've admitted that you were wrong about Shaq's rap sheet being far less numerous than Kobe's? I sure didn't see it. 

And I suppose it is indeed possible you didn't understand team dynamics in D1; hell, even 11 year NBA veterans with 3 championships sometimes don't understand team dynamics, right?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

EHL said:


> ^ So now you've admitted that you were wrong about Shaq's rap sheet being far less numerous than Kobe's? I sure didn't see it.


Sure we'll go with that. I've lost interest in debating whether it's normal for someone to be mad at their boss.



> And I suppose it is indeed possible you didn't understand team dynamics in D1; hell, even 11 year NBA veterans with 3 championships sometimes don't understand team dynamics, right?


I wouldn't say Kobe doesn't understand them, I would say he doesn't care and puts himself above the team. Hell he doesn't want to be a sidekick no more.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Sure we'll go with that. I've lost interest in debating whether it's normal for someone to be mad at their boss.


Ah, I didn't realize you had changed your mind that their rap sheets are every bit as comparable to one another. Just checking.



> I wouldn't say Kobe doesn't understand them, I would say he doesn't care and puts himself above the team. Hell he doesn't want to be a sidekick no more.


Considering he demanded a trade loudly this summer for being a .500 team for 3 straight years, I'd say it stands to reason that being a top dog (which he is guaranteed in LA) instead of a sidekick, was the least of his worries. He has always had a greater desire to win.


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