# The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Talks)



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

> Ex-NBA referee Tim Donaghy told the feds two refs fixed the outcome of one playoff series - and that officials were told not to eject star players from games for fear of hurting ticket sales.
> 
> The bombshell allegations are contained in a court document filed Tuesday by Donaghy's lawyer. It describes the “inner workings" of the NBA in which top league executives used referees to manipulate games.
> 
> Donaghy, who pleaded guilty in Brooklyn Federal Court to charges of betting on games he officiated, told FBI agents “league officials would tell referees that they should withhold calling technical fouls on certain star players because doing so hurt ticket sales and television ratings," the document said.


Uh oh.


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## Block (Apr 22, 2007)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

this isn't new, he made the allegations like a week+ ago. I do agree with you that this is nothing but trouble.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Just heard on ESPN that he admitted Game 6 Kings Lakers 2002 was fixed.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Hmm.. .seems like that's the series I always reference as clearly being fixed. I think a lot of people talk about my views as being "conspiracy theorist" so if they'd address it now that'd be great. Especially since those same Lakers fans who were making excuses for those calls are now whining about the officiating in the Boston series. 

And somebody asked me if I thought the game fixing went up to the commish and the answer is still yes.

Also if I may remind everyone Ralph Nader wanted to make charges of consumer fraud for that game and people had the nerve to laugh at him.



> "At a time when the public's confidence is shaken by headlines reporting the breach of trust by corporate executives, it is important, during the public's relaxation time, for there to be maintained a sense of impartiality and professionalism in commercial sports performances," stated Nader. "That sense was severely shaken in the now notorious officiating during Game 6 of the Western Conference Finals between the Los Angeles Lakers and the Sacramento Kings."


thx.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Well, this sucks. Looks like we need to add an E for entertainment to NBA, maybe NBEA (National Basketball Entertainment Association)


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I can only hope he is trying to get his prison sentence reduced. Otherwise....


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

This definitely sucks for the NBA. Seems to be getting worse and worse.

By the way, as far as that Lakers/Kings Game 6 in 2002, I agree that the officiating was horrible against Sacramento. I hate when people just generalize and say "Lakers fans" - it's not every single one of them.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I also think Van Gundy deserves his money back.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2005/news/story?id=2051807



> Van Gundy got himself into trouble by telling three reporters at the team hotel in Dallas on Sunday night that a referee not working the playoffs called him after the Rockets went up 2-0 and warned that Yao was mentioned in an online evaluation from supervisor of officials Ronnie Nunn.


The league is(been) losing a lot of credibility. Anyone remember Larry Bird making statements of David Stern wanting a Game7 during one of the old Lakers/Celtics games.


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## Vuchato (Jan 14, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Nets world champs!


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I agree 100%. I've never looked at the NBA the same since that series.

However, I disagree that there is a conscious conspiracy. I think that there is a style of officiating that is approved by the league for the purpose of aestheticism. There is a "conspiracy," per say, to advance a style of officiating that rewards "stars" as opposed to an objective and fair style of officiating. 

Aesthetic appeal = more money. More "stars." But I don't agree that there are too many fouls called. I just think that there's too many anticipated calls and makeup calls that the refs get away with unpunished. There are also too many missed calls which cause retaliation fouls which do get called and then chaos ensues.

Something that pisses me off is a 1 v 1 breakaway where the offensive player misses a wild layup and gets free throws out of it even when he isn't fouled. It's disgusting.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Basel57 said:


> This definitely sucks for the NBA. Seems to be getting worse and worse.
> 
> By the way, as far as that Lakers/Kings Game 6 in 2002, I agree that the officiating was horrible against Sacramento. I hate when people just generalize and say "Lakers fans" - it's not every single one of them.


I'm with you man. You watch that **** with a grimace.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

this is very interesting... i want to see names named. donaghy getting caught is doing a service for fans of the NBA.


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## jimmy (Aug 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I almost stopped watching the NBA for good after that Lakers-Kings joke series. If this is true, the NBA is in deep, deep trouble. Bud Selig and the NFL commissioner will be grateful the spotlight leaves their respective leagues. The NBA has done a good job eliminating the "thuggish" tone that was rampant a few years back. They did a decent job recovering from the Brawl. There is no recovering from this.


Wasn't that the series that featured 27 4th quarter free-throws? Wasn't that the series where Doug Christie fouled Kobe Bryant's elbow with his face? Wasn't that the series where the Kings should have won if it wasn't for the Horry 3 and the fixed game 6?


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



afobisme said:


> this is very interesting... i want to see names named. donaghy getting caught is doing a service for fans of the NBA.


Donaghy is a drowning man trying everything he can to save himself. He just wants reduced years. I don't believe anything he says without proof but I do think that he can raise awareness to the bull**** makeup calls and anticipated calls that the officials get away with. We also need a retirement age rule and a no Violet Palmer rule.


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## SlamJam (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> Hmm.. .seems like that's the series I always reference as clearly being fixed.


yeah, donaghy's statement doesn't really add much. everyone knows something was horribly wrong with game 6.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



jimmy said:


> I almost stopped watching the NBA for good after that Lakers-Kings joke series. If this is true, the NBA is in deep, deep trouble. Bud Selig and the NFL commissioner will be grateful the spotlight leaves their respective leagues. The NBA has done a good job eliminating the "thuggish" tone that was rampant a few years back. They did a decent job recovering from the Brawl. There is no recovering from this.
> 
> 
> Wasn't that the series that featured 27 4th quarter free-throws? Wasn't that the series where Doug Christie fouled Kobe Bryant's elbow with his face? Wasn't that the series where the Kings should have won if it wasn't for the Horry 3 and the fixed game 6?


To answer your first question, yes. 

To answer your second question, it was Mike Bibby, I believe, and not Doug Christie.

To answer your third question, we'll never know if the Kings would have won the game, regardless of the bad officiating. All I know is that they had their chance in Game 7, and choked it away in overtime.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



> Jeff Van Gundy ultimately backed off comments that a referee told him officials had targeted Yao Ming in the Houston Rockets' 2005 first-round playoff series against the Dallas Mavericks. Maybe Van Gundy was right after all.
> 
> A letter sent to the sentencing court on behalf of convicted former referee Tim Donaghy outlines just such a plan. Donaghy's legal team is trying to demonstrate his cooperation with a federal government investigation before he is sentenced on July 14 on felony charges for taking cash payoffs from gamblers and betting on games himself.
> 
> ...


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3436401


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

does anybody question now why when asked about the donaghy story the same players who go nuts whenever a call goes against them didn't have any comment at stern's order? He's behind all this ****.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Basel57 said:


> To answer your first question, yes.
> 
> To answer your second question, it was Mike Bibby, I believe, and not Doug Christie.
> 
> To answer your third question, we'll never know if the Kings would have won the game, regardless of the bad officiating. All I know is that they had their chance in Game 7, and choked it away in overtime.


I agree, but I'm one of the guys who said the foul on Barry wouldn't have happened if the officials didn't **** up the goaltending and shotclock ordeals.. You get my drift.. So true to the person who mentioned changing the league name to NBEA.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Unreal..


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

the NBA is heading for a dark age again. damn corrupt referrees


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## Burn (Feb 2, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I thought everyone already knew the refs did their damnedest to fix games for the Lakers. The Kings series was when most people found out about it; the Wolves series was when it was confirmed to still be going on.


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## kidd2rj (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

i think officiating is still bad but not nearly as bad as it used to be during that 2000-2005 or so. there were many series and games that just simply looked rigged from the start. These allegations though seem pretty serious and i hope donaghy gets to expand on them and explain further. If there's more info to be gotten then i wouldn't mind seeing an NBA version of the Mitchell report to look into NBA officiating practices and instructions.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

The Philadelphia Inquirer weighs in.



> Lauro's letter provided a list of alleged "improper interactions and relationships" between referees and league players, coaches and officials, though none are identified. He said some NBA referees socialized with, sought autographs from and played tennis with players, coaches and executives, all in violation of league policies.
> 
> According to Lauro, Donaghy also told the FBI about colleagues who flaunted another NBA guidelines by wagering in casinos and on other sporting events.
> 
> ...


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

this is almost as great as Clemens Day


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Basel57 said:


> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3436401


I swore I was gonna fight anyone who told me anything about Rockets losing that series. I will forever contend that Game7 should have never happened(when we lost by 40). From the get go Yao was clearly being targeted with extraordinary BS calls. There's a Youtube clip of the many Game5 calls but I can't find it.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Spaceman Spiff said:


> I swore I was gonna fight anyone who told me anything about Rockets losing that series. I will forever contend that Game7 should have never happened(when we lost by 40). From the get go Yao was clearly being targeted with extraordinary BS calls. There's a Youtube clip of the many Game5 calls but I can't find it.


so it was like every other game yao plays in? lol


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> so it was like every other game yao plays in? lol


Yea basically.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

wow


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



adam said:


> Donaghy is a drowning man trying everything he can to save himself. He just wants reduced years. I don't believe anything he says without proof but I do think that he can raise awareness to the bull**** makeup calls and anticipated calls that the officials get away with. We also need a retirement age rule and a no Violet Palmer rule.


do you really think he would make up lies and deliberately tell them to the FBI? me, if im smart, i would just tell the truth. i know i wouldn't be able to outsmart the FBI. and i know that if i'm caught lying, my sentence would be more severe than the original sentence.

if i had to bet, i would say that he's telling the truth.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

the league could solve their problems pretty easily.All they'd need to do is pick up a rulebook and officiate according to the rules.there's always going to be this sort of speculation so long as the officiation is so biased towards star players and high profile teams.If you watch a game with a rulebook in your hands you won't recognize much similarity between the way the games are called and the way the rules are written

Mostly the NBA is trying to officiate offense though,but that's complete BS.Coaches and players shouldn't be punished for trying to stop the other team when they are acting within the rules.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Spaceman Spiff said:


> Just heard on ESPN that he admitted Game 6 Kings Lakers 2002 was fixed.


God the Laker fans that have been *****ing about the "whiny conspiracy nut" Kings fans just got owned so hard its not even funny.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Everyone knew that series was fixed, but now it's right in their face. Nothing anyone can say about it now. He didn't really say anything that most of us non-Laker fans didn't already know.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

It boggles my mind that any halfway intelligent person can sit down and watch an NBA playoff game, see the way it is called and listen to the announcers awkwardly complement the officials like somebody has a knife in their back, and NOT believe the game is fixed. 

Why was it that the day this broke ESPN had headlines about Charles Barkley's gambling debt on their front page, but that this wasn't even the top story on the NBA page? 

This is all very sad, but undeniably true. Sunday night's game made me sick to my stomach, but things are as fixed as ever. Even more disgusting that the league would so flagrantly determine outcomes of games so quickly after the scandal. 

Do they really think we are that dumb?


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

BTW, for all those that forgot... The Lakers shot 27 free throws in the fourth quarter. BTW, this is a quote from the article BEFORE it was updated and removed...



> The letter also details an incident in the 2002 playoffs in which Donaghy alleges that two referees, who were known as NBA "company men," wanted to extend a series to seven games. "Team 5" could have wrapped up the series in Game 6 but lost two players to ejection, lost that game and ultimately the series.
> 
> It is not clear which series this account refers to.


Two players (Vlade and Pollard) fouled out that game. Once gain... 27 free throws in the fourth quarter. Phil wants to give the Spurs an asterisk? I think the Lakers deserve a big fat * next to theirs.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Not good. Not good at all.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

wait a minute though.. isn't this the message board where people swear up and down that referees can't determine the outcomes of games?


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## kidd2rj (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Jonathan Watters said:


> It boggles my mind that any halfway intelligent person can sit down and watch an NBA playoff game, see the way it is called and listen to the announcers awkwardly complement the officials like somebody has a knife in their back, and NOT believe the game is fixed.


that's a good point about the announcers. how come they aren't chastising officials when it's blatantly obvious a team is getting shafted? does the nba have a rule in place with national tv that says announcers can't complain about officials just like players can't? 

anyone remember what channel the lakers/kings game was on and who the announcers were? if they didn't say a single word about how the kings were being royally bent over and F'd by the refs then they should never do a game again.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Damn..


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kidd2rj said:


> that's a good point about the announcers. how come they aren't chastising officials when it's blatantly obvious a team is getting shafted? does the nba have a rule in place with national tv that says announcers can't complain about officials just like players can't?
> 
> anyone remember what channel the lakers/kings game was on and who the announcers were? if they didn't say a single word about how the kings were being royally bent over and F'd by the refs then they should never do a game again.


The only announcer who does give a negative critique every once in a while...

Drum roll please...

Jeff Van Gundy.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Is there any doubt that the play we just witnessed, Lamar Odom absolutely bowling over an absolutely set Celtic defender, would have been called a charge if the game were taking place in Boston? 

Instead, Jackson goes out of his way to mention that one of Odom's jobs was to avoid the offensive foul, and that he managed to do it on that play. 

Huh? 

To be honest, I see it in a lot more than just the calls. I see it in player effort big time. Do people honestly believe the Lakers don't know how to rotate defensively? To keep Paul Pierce from getting wide open looks? To make a post entry pass? To freaking box out? 

Forget about the refs. If the Lakers do these four things that I learned how to do 4th grade, the series is 1-1, probably 2-0 Lakers.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kidd2rj said:


> that's a good point about the announcers. how come they aren't chastising officials when it's blatantly obvious a team is getting shafted? does the nba have a rule in place with national tv that says announcers can't complain about officials just like players can't?
> 
> anyone remember what channel the lakers/kings game was on and who the announcers were? if they didn't say a single word about how the kings were being royally bent over and F'd by the refs then they should never do a game again.


It was on NBC. I assume Bob Costas was doing the game and probably Bill Walton and Steve "Snapper" Jones.

I found the clip of one of the games that was fixed against the Rockets. This is the 2nd worst game I've ever witnessed only to Kings/Lakers Game6.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7eY8qGHU52E&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7eY8qGHU52E&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

i don't see how all those calls would have determined a game though! somebody help me out


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

One thing we can all be thankful for is that Stern helped us focus on more important issues like the dress code. I think we can at least agree on that.


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## kidd2rj (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Spaceman Spiff said:


> It was on NBC. I assume Bob Costas was doing the game and probably Bill Walton and Steve "Snapper" Jones.
> 
> I found the clip of one of the games that was fixed against the Rockets. This is the 2nd worst game I've ever witnessed only to Kings/Lakers Game6.
> 
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7eY8qGHU52E&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7eY8qGHU52E&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


wow...that's pretty bad. although let me just say that i'd prefer to see the full game instead of just clips. sometimes some games are so horrendously officiated on both sides. sometimes i wish were played without refs. i think the better team would win most of the time. you wouldn't have to worry about guys having to sit 8 minutes in the 1st quarter because of fouls


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*










If Tim Donaghy tells them about this, I'll have his picture on a post office billboard in the next 5 minutes.


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## hi im new (Jul 4, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

crazy ****


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Kobe is too similar to Frank from A postman always rings twice. Mamet is repeating himself with tonight's game.


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## Wayne (May 24, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Just looking at the free throw disparities between game 1/2 and game 3 of the nba finals right now is making me really believe Donaghy.

David Stern has done some kinda useless things: dress code, try to change the 70-year old leather ball, etc.

But when it comes to rigging and gambling, he hasn't done jack. Is he a fan of basketball or a fan of money? If there was only a way to get a fresh commissioner...


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

god damn, stern is such a snake. i hope he gets the blame for it and loses all the money he's accumulated.

he fined van gundy the most ever in league history because he obviously wanted to set a precedent.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Everyone is trying to destroy Donaghy's credibility. The man is going to jail. Why would he risk a longer sentence by lying!? I believe him 1000000000000%. David Stern is gonna destroy and delete any documents/emails that has anything to do with the fixing of these games. He mighty already have a team of professionals running a thorough search and destroying any such evidence.


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Wow.........


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Spaceman Spiff said:


> It was on NBC. I assume Bob Costas was doing the game and probably Bill Walton and Steve "Snapper" Jones.
> 
> I found the clip of one of the games that was fixed against the Rockets. This is the 2nd worst game I've ever witnessed only to Kings/Lakers Game6.
> 
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7eY8qGHU52E&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7eY8qGHU52E&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


Oh man watching that again just pisses the hell outta me... and if you watched the entire game, it'd be even more frustrating.


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## Tobias (Aug 5, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

You can tell JVG was scrambling to piece together his league-prompted thoughts. You know hes still totally pissed and only said what he had to. Not like he can, on Natl TV during his job, say "I ****in' told ya'll!" That was an uncomfortable watch, tucked away at the tag end of half-time


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

*for The Love Of God Donaghy, Admit That The Suns' Games Were Rigged In The Playoffs For The Past 4 Years! Admit It! *


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Hibachi! said:


> BTW, for all those that forgot... The Lakers shot 27 free throws in the fourth quarter. BTW, this is a quote from the article BEFORE it was updated and removed...
> 
> 
> 
> Two players (Vlade and Pollard) fouled out that game. Once gain... 27 free throws in the fourth quarter. Phil wants to give the Spurs an asterisk? I think the Lakers deserve a big fat * next to theirs.


Let's not forget the terrible call in Game 5 of that series... where they gave they gave the ball back to the Kings where they made the 3 point shot to steal the game from the Lakers. I think game 6 was just a make up game for that terrible call, where the refs gave the Kings an opportunity to win the game, which they had no business of winning.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Eternal said:


> Let's not forget the terrible call in Game 5 of that series... where they gave they gave the ball back to the Kings where they made the 3 point shot to steal the game for the Lakers. I think game 6 was just a make up game for that terrible call, where the refs gave the Kings an opportunity to win the game, which they had no business of winning.


This is the worst post in basketballforum history. And a very pathetic attempt to justify Game6.


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

That being said in my above post... I really hope Stern gets in deep trouble, and is forced to leave as the commissioner. Although this probably won't fix the problem, as whoever takes over will probably do the same thing and continue Stern's evil ways.


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Spaceman Spiff said:


> This is the worst post in basketballforum history. And a very pathetic attempt to justify Game6.


It's not right on what the NBA did... but they messed up both games. One favored the Kings, one favored the Lakers.

I only mentioned what I did above, because Phil Jackson is the one who brought up the subject of Game 5.


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## Jorbroni (Nov 24, 2004)

*Donaghy: Refs fixed playoff series in 2002*



> The disgraced former NBA referee told authorities in a four-page letter released Tuesday that two officials conspired to fix the outcome of a 2002 playoff series and influenced several other post- and regular-season games.
> 
> 
> Court documents filed by Donaghy's lawyer detailed the "inner-workings" of a plot in which top league executives used referees to manipulate the games. Donaghy claims two referees were "company men" whose job was to extend a playoff series in 2002 to a seventh game.
> ...



http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8231176?MSNHPHCP&GT1=39002

The truth finally comes out


----------



## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

*Re: Donaghy: Refs fixed playoff series in 2002*

Already a topic...

http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-...ncing-streets-new-york-tim-donaghy-talks.html


----------



## Omega (Apr 11, 2005)

*Re: Donaghy: Refs fixed playoff series in 2002*

holy ****... the plot just got thicker


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Eternal said:


> Let's not forget the terrible call in Game 5 of that series... where they gave they gave the ball back to the Kings where they made the 3 point shot to steal the game from the Lakers. I think game 6 was just a make up game for that terrible call, where the refs gave the Kings an opportunity to win the game, which they had no business of winning.


He clearly referenced game SIX... But I'm glad you decided to look over that.


----------



## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Hibachi! said:


> He clearly referenced game SIX... But I'm glad you decided to look over that.


I obviously agree game 6 was suspicious. We can't ignore the Game 5 either though.

What's done is done though. Hopefully the league will fix the way they run the league in the near future. That's the best we can hope for.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Eternal said:


> What's done is done though. Hopefully the league will fix the way they run the league in the near future. That's the best we can hope for.


you sound like a battered wife


----------



## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Jonathan Watters said:


> The only announcer who does give a negative critique every once in a while...
> 
> Drum roll please...
> 
> Jeff Van Gundy.


actually, believe it or not, i was listening to the mike tirico show on espn radio when the lakers spurs series was going on and hubie brown was a guest, and he RIPPED into the officials for a good 10 minutes after the whole barry/fisher thing. It seems to me that they are only given a very short leash to disagree with officiating when commentating the game live, but their true feelings definately much more extreme.


----------



## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

on another note, wouldnt it be poetic justice if they link all this directly to sterns doing and his sleazy *** gets tossed in jail.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Tooeasy said:


> on another note, wouldnt it be poetic justice if they link all this directly to sterns doing and his sleazy *** gets tossed in jail.


scum like him don't go to jail.


----------



## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

There were 100+ games altered by referees, according to Donaghy. You believe that the 2002 Lakers/Kings game was fixed? That's fine...but what about the other 99+ games? What if one of those games...was a game for Sacramento to win against the Lakers, earlier in the series?


----------



## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> you sound like a battered wife


Great to know.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Eternal said:


> There were 100+ games altered by referees, according to Donaghy. You believe that the 2002 Lakers/Kings game was fixed? That's fine...but what about the other 99+ games? What if one of those games...was a game for Sacramento to win against the Lakers, earlier in the series?


Was there a game where the kings were given 30 4th quarter free throws?


----------



## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



adam said:


> I agree 100%. I've never looked at the NBA the same since that series.
> 
> However, I disagree that there is a conscious conspiracy. I think that there is a style of officiating that is approved by the league for the purpose of aestheticism. There is a "conspiracy," per say, to advance a style of officiating that rewards "stars" as opposed to an objective and fair style of officiating.
> 
> ...


I agree. I don't believe theres an intricate behind-the-scenes conscious conspiracy to the extent that some people are making it out to be. But theres definately a conspiracy to benefit certain players/teams to make money, boost ratings, divert from heat the leauge is getting about officiating, etc.. 




Spaceman Spiff said:


> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/7eY8qGHU52E&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/7eY8qGHU52E&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


I feel bad for Yao.. :no:

He's such a nice guy and like the commentators said, always polite to the officials. Too bad they don't give a ****..


----------



## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

It's Donaghy, but I really wouldn't be surprised if it was true in this case. However, I don't expect to hear more details about it since the league has no interest in dismantling itself and their referees even further.


----------



## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kidd2rj said:


> wow...that's pretty bad. although let me just say that i'd prefer to see the full game instead of just clips. sometimes some games are so horrendously officiated on both sides. sometimes i wish were played without refs. i think the better team would win most of the time. you wouldn't have to worry about guys having to sit 8 minutes in the 1st quarter because of fouls


That clip was from Game5. Watching the game itself is much worse. And most people probably won't remember this series but games 3 and 4 were almost as horrible.


----------



## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Eternal said:


> I obviously agree game 6 was suspicious. We can't ignore the Game 5 either though.
> 
> What's done is done though. Hopefully the league will fix the way they run the league in the near future. That's the best we can hope for.


Why would the league want the Lakers to lose!? It is never in their best interest to do so. They are a big market team, Sacramento is small town. A Laker game generates more money. They needed Lakers in the Finals. Sacramento was the better team, they don't need the help of officials to win. They proven they were the better team already. The league took notice and took action to make sure that didn't happen. Yes the Kings blew game7, but the fact of the matter is that game7 should have never happened.


----------



## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Tooeasy said:


> actually, believe it or not, i was listening to the mike tirico show on espn radio when the lakers spurs series was going on and hubie brown was a guest, and he RIPPED into the officials for a good 10 minutes after the whole barry/fisher thing. It seems to me that they are only given a very short leash to disagree with officiating when commentating the game live, but their true feelings definately much more extreme.


i can take the lakers/kings game 6 2002 WCF being rigged.. but the lakers vs. spurs, i don't feel anything was rigged; if anyone got the advantage in the last minute, it was the spurs.

i think this is much worse than baseball on steroids... but unless there is substantial evidence, i think the nba execs will be able to diffuse any claims.

this is the perfect time for espn to air games 5 and 6.


----------



## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Uh oh NBA :naughty:


----------



## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

david stern already makes 20 million a year, i can't believe that he would be so greedy as to allow/pull tricks like these.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

the problem that needs to be resolved when discussing the CRIME of game-fixing is what are the personal motivations. what does david stern personally stand to gain by criminally fixing games? what does the "league"? 

here's the thing - the league is simply made up of individual franchises. those franchises are the ones who benefit financially from the additional revenue. not david stern. he's a salaried employee. not the league office - they're not a profit center. with this stuff, you always follow the money. we know why donaghy was fixing. it's clear. the motivations are clear. now, he's saying there was a separate independent conspiracy going on while he was doing his own game fixing for a completely different reason. who benefited from this other criminal behavior?


----------



## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> the problem that needs to be resolved when discussing the CRIME of game-fixing is what are the personal motivations. what does david stern personally stand to gain by criminally fixing games? what does the "league"?
> 
> here's the thing - the league is simply made up of individual franchises. those franchises are the ones who benefit financially from the additional revenue. not david stern. he's a salaried employee. not the league office - they're not a profit center. with this stuff, you always follow the money. we know why donaghy was fixing. it's clear. the motivations are clear. now, he's saying there was a separate independent conspiracy going on while he was doing his own game fixing for a completely different reason. who benefited from this other criminal behavior?


there are plenty of ways that he and nba execs could benefit. he could give tips to people who bet in vegas, for example.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



afobisme said:


> there are plenty of ways that he and nba execs could benefit. he could give tips to people who bet in vegas, for example.


so follow the money. you really think david stern is getting kickbacks on gambling money? doesn't make much sense.


----------



## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Who benefits?

The League's true head honchos...


the Franchise owners.


The more profitable the NBA is, the more money for the owners.
So in the contrary to individual owners pushing for their own team to be "benefited". Most likely, they would be many financial evaluation discussions between the NBA management and the franchise owners.. decisions are then made based on which teams will bring in the income... or atleast the impact that in the long run will help the NBA, which in turns helps the owners.

- International influence, Why just limit the cash (hundreds of billions a year) from USA alone? Why not get France, Italy, Germany, Argentina, China etc to input some $$$ into the league.

- League icon, Michael Jordan helped the NBA market it to a bigger audience. Every generation, they need an ideal "icon" to push to have this "hero" or "Pele-type" personality.. the next Michael Jordan status to carry the league and keep it marketable to the bigger market.

- Again rigging... is not the word to use... but "influence".. is the more accurate wording.


----------



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> the problem that needs to be resolved when discussing the CRIME of game-fixing is what are the personal motivations. what does david stern personally stand to gain by criminally fixing games? what does the "league"?
> 
> here's the thing - the league is simply made up of individual franchises. those franchises are the ones who benefit financially from the additional revenue. not david stern. he's a salaried employee. not the league office - they're not a profit center. with this stuff, you always follow the money. we know why donaghy was fixing. it's clear. the motivations are clear. now, he's saying there was a separate independent conspiracy going on while he was doing his own game fixing for a completely different reason. who benefited from this other criminal behavior?


This is a really solid though provoking post, for the record.

This whole thing just disgusts me so much that I've avoided most of the discussion on it, but it would be interesting to find out just where the money leads.

I mean... to a certain extent when the league does well, everyone who works for the league does well... and so there is certainly some motivation there to keep the league selling jerseys, tickets, and commercials in big markets... but I think you're right to question whether that's enough to go to the lengths that it appears they went to to alter games...

There has to be some tie to organized crime (and I don't necessarily mean the "mob"...) and somebody has to be taking in some bank... because the NBA knows it is under a ton of public scrutiny and the risk here was massive (as we're finding out).


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Wouldnt the betting companies be the ones making the most profit out of this


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



1 Penny said:


> Who benefits?
> 
> The League's true head honchos...
> 
> ...



so you're saying the kings would be in on the conspiracy that fixed games against them? that other franchises are in on agreeing to slant away from their own franchises? unanimously and secretively? 

donaghy is not using the word influence. he's accusing of game fixing.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Right... its hard for me to imagine Senator Herb Kohl stepping to the table and saying "So, how can we screw the Bucks this year!?"

Though for the record, and I'm not even a Bucks fan, but I found it fishy in 2001 that Dikembe Mutombo got called for 6 fouls in an entire 7 game series in the Eastern Conference Finals when he was with Philadelphia. We're talking about a guy that was planted right in front of the hoop... blocked 19 shots...


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

you're not a bucks fan but you can remember those details back as far as 2001 and you're from wisconsin?

i call conspiracy!


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



HB said:


> Wouldnt the betting companies be the ones making the most profit out of this



No, the league would. If the league was faced for example with having the most famous athlete in the world , we'll call him Michael Jordan, and you had the chance to call an offensive foul on him while playing the Jazz, would it be more profitable to allow him to commit that foul or to call him for it? I think it's a lot more dramatic and legend making to let him clearly push off on someone and get his shot off. 


If you were faced with having the West represented by one of the most storied franchises in sports or letting a team from Sacramento (which played a far more entertaining style of offense btw) represent the West in the finals, which one would bring in better ratings for the casual fan? So of course you give the Lakers 30 free throws in a crucial 4th quarter.

Are people really convinced that it's simple incompetence that leads to things like this? It's not possible. It's beyond the realm of reality to think these things happened by accident.

It's not a coincidence that when Stern was asked courtside during the Lakers' run to make an all time team he listed Kobe AND Shaq as two of his starting 5. It was obvious all along that he was a piece of **** who manipulated the outcomes as he saw fit. And when the Donaghy scandal broke like I said, all the players who get technicals and throw tantrums whenever a touch foul is called on them suddenly didn't have any opinions on the topic? Really?! When's the last time you saw an employee not have an opinion on something that DIRECTLY affected the job he does every single day? Stern controls everything down to make sure the players dress in a way that doesn't offend all the good midwestern white folks. The idea this happened without his knowledge is retarded.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



1 Penny said:


> Who benefits?
> 
> The League's true head honchos...
> 
> ...


Oh... I'm sure the Maloofs benefited financially from having their team lose out on a finals appearance, and most likely a championship.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



> In one of several allegations of corrupt refereeing, Donaghy said he learned in May 2002 that two referees known as “company men” were working a best-of-seven series in which “Team 5” was leading 3-2. In the sixth game, he alleged they purposely ignored fouls made by opponent “Team 6” and made phantom calls putting its players at the free-throw line.
> 
> “Team 6” won the game and came back to win the series, the letter said.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-bettingprobe&prov=ap&type=lgns


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> No, the league would. If the league was faced for example with having the most famous athlete in the world , we'll call him Michael Jordan, and you had the chance to call an offensive foul on him while playing the Jazz, would it be more profitable to allow him to commit that foul or to call him for it? I think it's a lot more dramatic and legend making to let him clearly push off on someone and get his shot off.
> 
> 
> If you were faced with having the West represented by one of the most storied franchises in sports or letting a team from Sacramento (which played a far more entertaining style of offense btw) represent the West in the finals, which one would bring in better ratings for the casual fan? So of course you give the Lakers 30 free throws in a crucial 4th quarter.
> ...


Not saying I dont agree with you, but I find it hard to see how Stern would directly be involved with such moves. By the way, wouldnt other owners be unto this also. We are not talking about some Joe schmos here, these are some very powerful and rich men


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Do all the people who say refs can't determine the outcome of a game plan to just pretend they never said it or what? I'll just start bumping the threads if need be.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

the casino sportsbooks were the ones who really caught Donaghy by reporting irregularities in the games he officiated.What they are interested in is a fair game that they can handicap effectively.It doesn't really matter who wins to them,they make money either way.They have a vested interest in the integrity of the games since any notion that the games are fixed would reduce interest in betting on them or swing all the action towards certan teams the league is at the very least perceived to favor.Most importantly they don't want outside factors distorting the point spread.You can't handicap corruption and they're interested in a point spread that maximizes the volume of bets taken.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



HB said:


> Not saying I dont agree with you, but I find it hard to see how Stern would directly be involved with such moves. By the way, wouldnt other owners be unto this also. We are not talking about some Joe schmos here, these are some very powerful and rich men


How exactly is it hard to believe that the Commish of the NBA is fixing games knowing how much impact on a game the refs have? Is it any more hard to believe than the idea that people didn't know Enron was behaving fraudulently?


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> How exactly is it hard to believe that the Commish of the NBA is fixing games knowing how much impact on a game the refs have? Is it any more hard to believe than the idea that people didn't know Enron was behaving fraudulently?


Fixing games in favor of who?


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Diable said:


> the casino sportsbooks were the ones who really caught Donaghy by reporting irregularities in the games he officiated.What they are interested in is a fair game that they can handicap effectively.It doesn't really matter who wins to them,they make money either way.They have a vested interest in the integrity of the games since any notion that the games are fixed would reduce interest in betting on them or swing all the action towards certan teams the league is at the very least perceived to favor.Most importantly they don't want outside factors distorting the point spread.You can't handicap corruption and they're interested in a point spread that maximizes the volume of bets taken.



Which makes it all the more hilarious that Stern would say **** like he didn't want a team in Vegas b/c of the betting issue, when in reality they hate fixed games. He just didn't want them exposing his refs.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



HB said:


> Fixing games in favor of who?



Whoever he decides is best for the league? Again I'll stand corrected if someone can simply watch game 6 of the lakers/kings and tell me what other plausible explanation there is than the game simply being fixed.

Please do I've been waiting years for someone to do it.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

The league fixing games is still hard to believe. I don't know if just having Donaghy as a corroborating witness is enough. Saying there are crooked refs is one thing, because after all those guys are human and people fix games because of greed. 

To say the league has a hand in fixing the games is really going a little too far and the main reason I say that is because why would the other owners stand by and let it happen. At the end of the day, the Lakers making a ton of money doesn't help the Warriors who make more money by doing something productive, ala winning games.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

What I think the league has actually done is try to manipulate the scoring output of games by bending the rules towards offensive players.I really doubt that anyone in the league office was stupid enough to overtly fix games because that would be catastrophic if discovered.I do believe they have favored the big market teams in more subtle ways and the referees have likely understood what they wanted without being told to fix one game or another in plain language.

The problem with conspiracy theories is that they always neglect a very stark and singular fact.You can't carry out a conspiracy by yourself and you can't trust anyone else to keep a secret.There are three refs involved....Someone else has to tell them what to do,that someone isn't going to be Stern...And to be successful you have to have those five people take a secret to their grave.Anything you gain from overtly fixing a game in trifling in comparison to the damage you would do by getting caught.If you're Stern those other four guys own your *** for the rest of your day.You can't discipline them,you certainly can't fire them and you can't do anything that would make them want to stick a redhot poker in a bodily orifice.


The NBA isn't the mafia.They don't kill people for violating omerte...in fact the mafia has had a few problems with their code of silence and they do kill people for telling on them.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> How exactly is it hard to believe that the Commish of the NBA is fixing games knowing how much impact on a game the refs have? Is it any more hard to believe than the idea that people didn't know Enron was behaving fraudulently?


the people in enron were personally benefiting through a huge runup of their stock options and bonus payouts. what did stern stand to gain and what did he stand to lose? there's a huge difference.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> Whoever he decides is best for the league? Again I'll stand corrected if someone can simply watch game 6 of the lakers/kings and tell me what other plausible explanation there is than the game simply being fixed.
> 
> Please do I've been waiting years for someone to do it.


In this case, the Pistons would never have defeated the Lakers


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I honestly doubt the league would fix games. If they did, the wouldn't have so many lackluster finals this decade.

It is David Stern's fault for over protecting his referees. If he allowed them to be put under public scrutiny it would at least scare away some of them from making some blatant one sided calls.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

every owner benefits from high television ratings for the finals. better television contracts, more money.



> In this case, the Pistons would never have defeated the Lakers





> I honestly doubt the league would fix games. If they did, the wouldn't have so many lackluster finals this decade


the refs can't beat a clearly better team. at some point it becomes too obvious.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



el_Diablo said:


> every owner benefits from high television ratings for the finals. better television contracts, more money.


so sa was psyched that the lakers made the finals?


----------



## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> so sa was psyched that the lakers made the finals?


well, no one had mentioned the tv money, so I just thought to point it out. I don't think every organization is in the conspiracy if there is one, obviously.


----------



## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

How much more prison time is this guy going to get for lying to investigators?


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> the people in enron were personally benefiting through a huge runup of their stock options and bonus payouts. what did stern stand to gain and what did he stand to lose? there's a huge difference.


He standed to gain the international growth of the league he took over which he always mentions as being " a sport you could only see late night with replays" when he took over?

Again if games aren't fixed, please give me a non-fixed explanation for the officiating in game 6 of the lakers/kings series which is the worst officiated game in history. Stern will have an out plan because he's a lawyer and knows how to weasel his way out of anything. He'll talk about credibility and he'll have plausible deniability built in. Unfortunately anybody with working eyes can see what happened.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> He standed to gain the international growth of the league he took over which he always mentions as being " a sport you could only see late night with replays" when he took over?
> 
> Again if games aren't fixed, please give me a non-fixed explanation for the officiating in game 6 of the lakers/kings series which is the worst officiated game in history. Stern will have an out plan because he's a lawyer and knows how to weasel his way out of anything. He'll talk about credibility and he'll have plausible deniability built in. Unfortunately anybody with working eyes can see what happened.


international growth from 2002?

what did he personally gain by criminally fixing games in 2002?


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> international growth from 2002?
> 
> what did he personally gain by criminally fixing games in 2002?


A lakers dynasty featuring two of the most marketable players in the NBA in their primes?

Is anybody going to give me a non-fixed explanation for the game's officiating or am I just going to answer everybody else's questions?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> A lakers dynasty featuring two of the most marketable players in the NBA in their primes?


what did he personally gain???


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> A lakers dynasty featuring two of the most marketable players in the NBA in their primes?
> 
> Is anybody going to give me a non-fixed explanation for the game's officiating or am I just going to answer everybody else's questions?



So why did the Pistons defeat a Lakers team that had four HOF players which lead to the dismantling of the Lakers team?


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



HB said:


> So why did the Pistons defeat a Lakers team that had four HOF players which lead to the dismantling of the Lakers team?



Because Kobe tanked the games to punish Phil and Shaq?

Can I get my non-fixed explanation for the Game 6 between the Lakers and Kings now please?


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I don't think the league has any interest in fixing games or entire playoff series unless you consider changing the rules towards more points/faster pace/more entertaining for the casual fan fixing games. That happens in every sport because more points and more offensive highlights means more money. Like others said, we have seen so many lopsided NBA Finals this decade that I just can't believe that the league wants referees to fix games. By the way, David Stern is the commissioner, but he is not almighty. There are many more people who have a lot of responsibility for the NBA and it's false to say that David Stern is "the league".


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> what did he personally gain???



The same things Bud Selig gained by knowingly allowing steroid use to fuel the Sammy Sosa/Mark McGwire home run derby. I mean home run chase.

Non-fixed explanation for game 6 now please.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> Because Kobe tanked the games to punish Phil and Shaq?




Meanwhile Pistons fans will probably argue with you that maybe the better team won



> *Can I get my non-fixed explanation for the Game 6 between the Lakers and Kings now please*?


Why do you keep going back to this? Who is saying that game isnt fixed? Wasnt this why the thread was created. The question is, why would Stern directly involve himself with this?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> The same things Bud Selig gained by knowingly allowing steroid use to fuel the Sammy Sosa/Mark McGwire home run derby. I mean home run chase.
> 
> Non-fixed explanation for game 6 now please.


except what selig did wasn't criminal.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> Because Kobe tanked the games to punish Phil and Shaq?


LOL.

That makes.. sense.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



HB said:


> Meanwhile Pistons fans will probably argue with you that maybe the better team won


They played better b/c kobe pouted and took the series off. Shaq balled his *** off.




> Why do you keep going back to this? Who is saying that game isnt fixed? Wasnt this why the thread was created. The question is, why would Stern directly involve himself with this?



The question is why do you think the fixing was isolated to one person when we've seen it happen on many ocassions like the Mavs/heat series officiating and the Rockets games officiating we've talked about here? Why do you think it's a coincidence that MJ was allowed to push off on Russel with no call? Why do you think these things constantly happen? If I was in charge of a league and I was a complete control fanatic who was stressing everything down to the way people dressed can you provide a reasonable explanation for how these things would happen for years and years?


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> except what selig did wasn't criminal.



I thought I was providing a direct correlation by talking about Selig allowing steroid use b/c the home runs that were being hit during the chase completely revitalized a post-strike league that was in big financial trouble. 

You did ask me why a commish would do something like that right?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> I thought I was providing a direct correlation by talking about Selig allowing steroid use b/c the home runs that were being hit during the chase completely revitalized a post-strike league that was in big financial trouble.
> 
> You did ask me why a commish would do something like that right?


in the context of the risk they are taking. selig took minimal personal risk. stern you're saying for similar gain would risk jail. that's not a direct comparison.


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## OnePeat (Aug 20, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I'm just gonna back up essbee on this one and say Stern definitely knew what was going on and most probably had direct involvement. Although knowing who he is, it's likely untraceable. Any fan watching at home from a television set can see the dishonesty of the referees and of the leaugue in general, so to say the commissioner of the entire operation hasn't seen the same things is absurd.

A couple of times I've seen the question posted as to what he stood to personally gain. No one knows for sure, but I can take an educated guess. Money. Bottom line. The league makes more money if certain teams and certain players are successful. Jersey sales, away team attendance, tv commercials, magazine covers. All these things are affected by the outcomes of the games and the performances of indivdual players. Stern's job is to make money. And judging by the product on display on the basketball court every night, there is no question in my mind that the person in charge is greenlighting some pretty shady stuff. 

But anyway, this isn't about Stern for me. This is about the whole league. The NBA really is an atrocious example of competitive sport at this point. It is my favorite game, the most exciting to watch, but the league in question has no honor, no integrity, and it has lost all relevance with defenders of fair play. Someone needs to straighten it out asap. Just look at all the complaining of the players on a nightly basis. Even they hate what's going on.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

another thing: i think the nba is a unique sport in that it's probably the easiest sport to manipulate through officiating since there are so many changes of possessions (especially during crunch time).


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



OnePeat said:


> I'm just gonna back up essbee on this one and say Stern definitely knew what was going on and most probably had direct involvement. Although knowing who he is, it's likely untraceable. Any fan watching at home from a television set can see the dishonesty of the referees and of the leaugue in general, so to say the commissioner of the entire operation hasn't seen the same things is absurd.
> 
> A couple of times I've seen the question posted as to what he stood to personally gain. No one knows for sure, but I can take an educated guess. Money. Bottom line. The league makes more money if certain teams and certain players are successful. Jersey sales, away team attendance, tv commercials, magazine covers. All these things are affected by the outcomes of the games and the performances of indivdual players. Stern's job is to make money. And judging by the product on display on the basketball court every night, there is no question in my mind that the person in charge is greenlighting some pretty shady stuff.
> 
> But anyway, this isn't about Stern for me. This is about the whole league. The NBA really is an atrocious example of competitive sport at this point. It is my favorite game, the most exciting to watch, but the league in question has no honor, no integrity, and it has lost all relevance with defenders of fair play. Someone needs to straighten it out asap. Just look at all the complaining of the players on a nightly basis. Even they hate what's going on.



stern's job is to act in the best interests of the league. 

the money doesn't go to stern. it goes to the franchises. many of whom would not see fixing games against them as in their best interests.


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## kidd2rj (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

i saw a stat that mavs are 2-14 when joey crawford is a ref in the game. It seems like refs really affect the game in basketball moreso than other sports. In other sports, a ref has a certain person and/or location to look at and disregards pretty much everything else but in the NBA, you have 3 refs to potentially get the call wrong. How many times in basketball have we seen a play happen literally 2 or 3 feet from a ref but the foul call comes from across the court from the ref who is 12 feet away. I am not sure how NBA refs are trained but maybe if NBA refs utilized and held true to a zone type calling then the effect they have can be minimized. the ref under the basket is the only one who will call a foul on a layup attempt. if the same ref is calling the same foul on yao everytime down then this gives yao knowledge to adapt or identify the refs making certain calls on players.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

The funny thing is, you could bring in a whole new crew of refs and people would still complain about them. Reffing basketball is not easy. However, there is no way to stop guys from wanting to fix games. I wish there was, but these guys are human and can be greedy.

I just can't see this being a league-wide conspiracy and if it was, why wouldn't someone want to sing? I mean many people can be persuaded to talk if you give them enough incentive.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Why would Donaghy risk more prison time by lying to the Feds!? He's out here trying to cut his time shorter. If it means taking out his former employers/employees with him so be it. I believe this man. No way he's gonna lie like that.

Of course in the end Donaghy might look like a liar because Stern and everyone else involved will already have deleted any traces of info that leads to the fixing of games.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Jordan pushoff against the Jazz for the buzzer beater. Are you telling me none of the refs saw that?

anyway, I don't know if the refs do it on purpose, but they are generally pretty bad IMO. I think the NBA should have instant replays. If you call for an instant reply and are wrong, then it costs you a timeout.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Spaceman Spiff said:


> Why would Donaghy risk more prison time by lying to the Feds!? He's out here trying to cut his time shorter. If it means taking out his former employers/employees with him so be it. I believe this man. No way he's gonna lie like that.
> 
> Of course in the end Donaghy might look like a liar because Stern and everyone else involved will already have deleted any traces of info that leads to the fixing of games.


Well, here is the thing to quote George Constanza.

"It's not a lie, if you believe it."

Donaghy doesn't really have any PROOF. He just saying that these things happened, but doesn't have any evidence. You know saying an official said something without the audio, makes it hard to believe 100%. You say, well why would he lie? I say, it's not so much that he's lying, it's that he wants to bring everyone down with him.

The Nino Brown effect if you will.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

McGrady never been out the first round. *


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## OnePeat (Aug 20, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> stern's job is to act in the best interests of the league.
> 
> the money doesn't go to stern. it goes to the franchises. many of whom would not see fixing games against them as in their best interests.


Again, it doesn't really matter. The product on the court is obviously being unfairly officiated. Fans can see it, players can see it, coaches and owners can see it. There is no doubt that David Stern can see it. The only difference in his case, is that he is in charge of the entire operation. He has not made one statement that I can recall expressing dipleasure with the day-to-day performance of his referee crew. He has not done anything, basically, to improve the product on the court which we have all grown so sick and tired of watching. Star players get preferential treatment by referees--this has never been addressed. Certain games are horribly one sided in terms of fouls called--this has not been addressed. The type of play accepted as within the rules changes from game to game--this also has never been adressed. And the list goes on. His silence on these matters can only be explained two ways. One, he is in agreement with the way his game is being officiated. Or two, he is unaware that any of these things are taking place. Either he is complicit in a dishonest presentation of athletics, or he is unfit for his positoin by reasons of gross stupidity and incompetence.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



OnePeat said:


> Again, it doesn't really matter. The product on the court is obviously being unfairly officiated. Fans can see it, players can see it, coaches and owners can see it. There is no doubt that David Stern can see it. The only difference in his case, is that he is in charge of the entire operation. He has not made one statement that I can recall expressing dipleasure with the day-to-day performance of his referee crew. He has not done anything, basically, to improve the product on the court which we have all grown so sick and tired of watching. Star players get preferential treatment by referees--this has never been addressed. Certain games are horribly one sided in terms of fouls called--this has not been addressed. The type of play accepted as within the rules changes from game to game--this also has never been adressed. And the list goes on. His silence on these matters can only be explained two ways. One, he is in agreement with the way his game is being officiated. Or two, he is unaware that any of these things are taking place. Either he is complicit in a dishonest presentation of athletics, or he is unfit for his positoin by reasons of gross stupidity and incompetence.


I agree. Even if he isn't rigging games, he would have to be an idiot not to recognize the bad ref jobs, in which case he should be fired. You also see him fining people for complaining about bad calls? Why should he worry if they were doing a good job, to shut them up about an obvious flaw?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Let me ask something then. Why haven't the owners who employ him fired him, if he's so bad? I mean take the fans out of this because they don't own jack. Why haven't the owners who basically allow him to have his paycheck not force him to resign?


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



HKF said:


> Well, here is the thing to quote George Constanza.
> 
> "It's not a lie, if you believe it."
> 
> ...


This is no movie. Turn the TV off and face real life. If you had jail time coming, and you know your sentence could be reduced by cooperating with the Feds and giving out more details related to this conspiracy, you would do it. Lying wouldn't help at all. I'm not gonna knowingly lie no matter how believable and risk getting added jail time.

It's very easy to get caught in a lie. These are real federal investigators, not Matt Damon and Julia Roberts playing a role. Donaghy is not OJ Simpson, he doesn't have the money to get away with it. Cochran is dead. No tomfoolery here. He just made a very serious statement which many have already had their varying suspicions about. 

Proof!? Maybe you didn't watch the games. It was obvious something was wrong. All he needs to do now is name names, but his body parts will be scattered across the globe by tomorrow morning if he does so.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Donaghy is going to jail for a long time regardless. He "may" be telling the truth, but then again Michael Vick was telling the truth too and he was found to have lied. I don't get why you think someone who is a serial liar would all of a sudden tell the "whole" truth now that their feet are to the fire. 

Once again, Donaghy saying it doesn't make it a fact. This is a dude who is going down regardless. If he says Team A and Team B, he could be saying there were suspicions, but until he names names, I am not sure why we should believe him.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

i think one of the articles says he's looking at a max of 33 months...that's not too long imo. 2.5 years. when they say "up to" that means it's the max.. and i'm not a lawyer or claiming to be one, but i think the sentence is hardly reaches the "up to" point.. especially when the defendant cooperates.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I watch replays of Game 2 in this finals series where the Celtics get away with hacking and can't help but think that game was rigged.

Game 1 and 3 seemed clean. But Game 2 officiating was pure bull****. Lakers do things Celtics in the position right before and after and the Celtics go to the line. Lakers get jerseys pulled and hacked 10 seconds later and no foul.

I don't know who will win the series but I keep getting the feeling the series will go to seven games one way or another, with the team that is about to win the series in game 6 losing miraculously to bad calls 

David Stern needs to go, we need more refs that are judged on performance, and instant replay.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



HKF said:


> Well, here is the thing to quote George Constanza.
> 
> "It's not a lie, if you believe it."
> 
> ...



Was Van Gundy lying about what an official had told him?



> Stern says probe will continue once Rockets done
> Associated Press
> 
> Updated: May 7, 2005, 10:29 AM ET
> ...


link 2005


Stern is simply a big bullying piece of ****.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

The only way to stop refs from fixing games is to hold them accountable for their calls... period... Every single ref from game 6 of 2002 should have been fired, or at the very least suspended for a season. Send a message that that type of bull**** is not allowed, and if you suck at your job you're going to get canned. But of course that all implies David Stern was oblivious to all of this... Which seems almost laughable to me.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Jordan, Bulls vs Jazz, watch the officiating of that last series. Of course, 3/4 this board is too stuck to Jordan's nuts to admit he won a series because of the refs.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Maybe publicize the ratings of each officiating crew after every game. We could see statistics of botched calls and such and know who to remove at the end of the season.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

You folks seriously can't understand the motivation for the league to rig games? You don't realize how David Stern benefits? Huh? 

The CEO of a large banking corporation doesn't own that company - does that mean he has no motivation to see that company become more profitable? Please! 

Stern is acting on behalf of the owners. He knows what makes his owners money, and he is doing it. If he doesn't have the motivation to extend series to provide more money for the league, nobody has any motivation to do anything. 

This was obvious long before Donaghy stood up and told us what we already knew, and I can't believe people are actually defending the league at this point. Maybe the league isn't explicitly influencing the outcome of every game, but are they meddling, making certain situations easier for certain teams at certain times? Beyond a shadow of a doubt!


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Bartholomew Hunt said:


> Maybe publicize the ratings of each officiating crew after every game. We could see statistics of botched calls and such and know who to remove at the end of the season.


I'd be down for this, the league can afford to pay people to go over referee performance. The refs that perform a certain threshold should be fired and replaced with other candidates.

The highest performing ones should ref the playoffs exclusively.


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## kidd2rj (Jan 29, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

First, NBA should make refs available for comment after the games. hold them accountable. 2nd, ref punishments for missed calls or bad performance should be made public. 3rd, i agree with jeff van gundy yesterday saying the league should be upfront with what they do with information when owners/coaches/players complain. If cuban is complaining yao is setting an illegal screen, rather than simply call it differently the next game without letting the rockets know, it should be a written complaint with a league stance on it. Let them put it in writing that nothing illegal was done by yao or maybe affirm that yao has gotten away with moving screens and it will be looked at more closely from this point on. At least a written complaint lets everyone (fans, coaches, players) know that it's going to be looked at.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

if the league does what van gundy suggested, there would be a lot of arbitration... many people would argue and complain. not sure if that would solve anything. if the nba made it public that it told the refs to call yao and his moving screens a little closer, then the rockets would get all pissy because cuban's complaints were adhered to. i bet houston would feel like the refs should listen to one of their complaints too.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kidd2rj said:


> *First, NBA should make refs available for comment after the games. hold them accountable.* 2nd, ref punishments for missed calls or bad performance should be made public. 3rd, i agree with jeff van gundy yesterday saying the league should be upfront with what they do with information when owners/coaches/players complain. If cuban is complaining yao is setting an illegal screen, rather than simply call it differently the next game without letting the rockets know, it should be a written complaint with a league stance on it. Let them put it in writing that nothing illegal was done by yao or maybe affirm that yao has gotten away with moving screens and it will be looked at more closely from this point on. At least a written complaint lets everyone (fans, coaches, players) know that it's going to be looked at.


Very good point, there are definitely due for that. This would also be a way to regain some credibility and this is a standard in soccer already. That doesn't prevent the possibility of fraud, but the league needs to make the entire process of officiating more transparent.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



KennethTo said:


> Jordan, Bulls vs Jazz, watch the officiating of that last series. Of course, 3/4 this board is too stuck to Jordan's nuts to admit he won a series because of the refs.


But Jordan was staving off a 193-degree fever at the time (and almost died, omg!), so the refs let the pushoff slide.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I'm just saying that Donaghy is a desperate man. He lost his family, his job and he will probably lose his life once the guys he snitched on in Vegas find him. This guy for all intents and purposes is a dead man walking. It sure looks like to me, he got caught and he's trying to bring other people down with him.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



HKF said:


> It sure looks like to me, he got caught and he's trying to bring other people down with him.


Very true, but those other people aren't necessarily innocent.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Jonathan Watters said:


> You folks seriously can't understand the motivation for the league to rig games? You don't realize how David Stern benefits? Huh?
> 
> The CEO of a large banking corporation doesn't own that company - does that mean he has no motivation to see that company become more profitable? Please!
> 
> ...



why don't you discuss a bit the concept of incentive compensation. then compare a ceo with a league commissioner. 

and donaghy's allegations are criminal. so we get a low reward, high risk proposition for the commish. a well established, job secure commish.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



HKF said:


> I'm just saying that Donaghy is a desperate man. He lost his family, his job and he will probably lose his life once the guys he snitched on in Vegas find him. This guy for all intents and purposes is a dead man walking. It sure looks like to me, he got caught and he's trying to bring other people down with him.


I think Stern has a heck of a lot more motivation to lie at this point than Donaghy does. He's merely confirming what we've all seen for years and years, and Stern is playing the classic big bully liar game. He refuses to acknowledge even the slightest possibility of wrongdoing on anyone's part but Donaghy's and expects people to take him at face value based on who he is, blatantly refusing to offer up any sort of evidence that any real inquiries have taken place. 

The entire process is even less transparent than it was before, even though everyone everywhere EXCEPT for Stern seems to believe transparency is necessary at this point. Stern won't even acknowledge the idea, continuing to believe that he is the only one who doesn't need to provide proof of truthfulness and that this will eventually blow over. 

Let's face it - if the guy had anything convincing to refute Donaghy's claims, why not just release it to the public? Case closed, game over. He would be crazy NOT to release it. Of course, that's if he has it. Which he most obviously doesn't....

This is classic liar behavior, and once again - it isn't like any halfway knowledgeable fan wasn't certain that these things were taking place long before the government arrested an NBA official. 

And Stern is wrong - this isn't blowing over. It is only going to get worse and erode his precious brand until something is done about it.


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## SlamJam (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



KennethTo said:


> I agree. Even if he isn't rigging games, he would have to be an idiot not to recognize the bad ref jobs, in which case he should be fired. You also see him fining people for complaining about bad calls? Why should he worry if they were doing a good job, to shut them up about an obvious flaw?


yeah, the way stern protects the refs and the way he lets them run out of the building right after the game without having to answer questions pisses me off.


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## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I found this elsewhere:



> Here is an interesting article on the Donaghy case. it appears that Donaghy's federal testimony was impounded, not accessible to the public. The public letter that Donaghys lawyer sent is the only source of his testimony available to the public. the letter only came out in response to the NBA's insistence on 1 million in restitution for the damages of the scandal (highly unusual in a case where money wasnt stolen). Before the NBA's insistence on restitution, Donaghy was probably going to see a reduced sentence of a few years, but his inability to pay restitution would keep him in prison and prevent that. The response of Donaghys lawyer was to send this public letter -a means to hit the NBA back for trying to prevent his reduced sentence- by releasing information to the public that was previously not available.
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=3436503
> 
> ...


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kidd2rj said:


> First, NBA should make refs available for comment after the games. hold them accountable. 2nd, ref punishments for missed calls or bad performance should be made public. 3rd, i agree with jeff van gundy yesterday saying the league should be upfront with what they do with information when owners/coaches/players complain. If cuban is complaining yao is setting an illegal screen, rather than simply call it differently the next game without letting the rockets know, it should be a written complaint with a league stance on it. Let them put it in writing that nothing illegal was done by yao or maybe affirm that yao has gotten away with moving screens and it will be looked at more closely from this point on. At least a written complaint lets everyone (fans, coaches, players) know that it's going to be looked at.


Absolutely not. It's a job. What are the supposed to say? I saw what I saw? Maybe it was a different aspect of the play that was called. That's just having them sit there and be criticized for 30 minutes a day. Do you want someone sitting there and telling you that you're bad at your job for 30 minutes a day? They already have to travel every day to games (alone and without a team mind you), get yelled at by fans no matter what at every game, get paid crap considering their position in the league, whined at nonstop by big babies and you want to make their lives more miserable? As for your second point, your boss is not allowed to tell anyone what the punishment for not doing your job properly. That's the law. My boss isn't allowed to tell other employees that I was suspended for a day for coming in late three times. As for being upfront with what they're investigating, why should they admit that the refs were lax on calling a breach in game rules? Should the corner gas station announce that they have been a little lax in selling alcohol and will now be strictly enforcing the only 21 and over can buy alcohol law? No, that would hurt the integrity of the game by admitting to your fans that you haven't given 100% quality every game. 

I think that the NBA needs another ref per game. Also, the no hand checking rule needs to go because it gives too much discretion to the officials. It pretty much turned everything into a foul and left the officials to decide when to enforce and when to back off. If they could hand check, then there would be fewer blocking calls because you wouldn't have to body up to your man to guard him


----------



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> why don't you discuss a bit the concept of incentive compensation. then compare a ceo with a league commissioner.
> 
> and donaghy's allegations are criminal. so we get a low reward, high risk proposition for the commish. a well established, job secure commish.


You don't think Stern isn't compensated when the league does well? You think a guy who becomes commisioner of the freaking NBA is looking for a well established, secure job? You think he doesn't have far-reaching plans to expand the influence and earning power of the league already in place?

Huh?


----------



## rock747 (Aug 3, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Wow, the NBA conspiracy undercurrent is going to see some mainsteam coverage... this could be intersting. I'm not ready to write this off. Google NBA conspiracy... it's been mentioned numerous other times. Ralph Nater has even written to Commissioner Stern about it. Players like ray allen have brought it up. It's always been out there. Conspiracy is not prevelant in other sports like it is in the NBA.


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## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



rock747 said:


> Conspiracy is not prevelant in other sports like it is in the NBA.


I take it you don't watch the NFL?


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## rock747 (Aug 3, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



carrrnuttt said:


> I take it you don't watch the NFL?


For the most part people beleive that the NFL has parody. People always are making comments on how the NBA is "fixed". The NBA is the only major sport where the conspiracy has to do with the integrity of the entire league itself.


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## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



rock747 said:


> For the most part people beleive that the NFL has parody. People always are making comments on how the NBA is "fixed". The NBA is the only major sport where the conspiracy has to do with the integrity of the entire league itself.


http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=NBA+Conspiracy



> Results *1* - *100* of about *487,000* for *NBA Conspiracy*. (*0.41* seconds)


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=NFL+Conspiracy



> Results *1* - *100* of about *1,280,000* for *NFL Conspiracy*. (*0.40* seconds)


Also, I think the word you were looking for is "parity."


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## rock747 (Aug 3, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

"NFL" is more popular the "NBA"? Could that skew the results? Are those results susposed to prove that the NFL has more conspiracy surrounding it? huh?


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Could the people who don't think it's fixed in a lot of games at least tell us why horrible officiating is allowed to continue league wide?


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## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



rock747 said:


> "NFL" is more popular the "NBA"? Could that skew the results? Are those results susposed to prove that the NFL has more conspiracy surrounding it? huh?


You're missing the point.

Here's a link with a few examples in it: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...onspiracy_Theories_and_the_Fans_Who_Love_Them

One major one that blog didn't cover: http://dwb.thenewstribune.com/sports/seahawks/story/5509779p-4965313c.html

Do a search for "Superbowl Conspiracy." That's one game out of the year. See how many results you get from this. And they are all recent ones. That's not even covering the regular season.

My point is, the NBA doesn't have a monopoly on conspiracy theories. The NFL is actually worse in many aspects, since it tends to have a more passionate fanbase.

Funny thing is, I believe Donaghy. He's a man that has nothing to gain from lying at this point, considering he has given all of this info in sworn testimony to the FBI in PRIVATE, which ended up going public due to Stern's greed.


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## rock747 (Aug 3, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I don't beleive the games could be "fixed" but the officials could be informed to officiate the game and players in certain ways. Like for instance, Donahgy's accusations about how the League tells officials not to eject or foul out star players. How many times have you guys seen a foul called, and two players are near the foul. One is a star, one is a average player. The foul is given to the average player, you watch the replay and it was obvious the star player commited the foul. This happens all the time.


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## rock747 (Aug 3, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



carrrnuttt said:


> Funny thing is, I believe Donaghy. He's a man that has nothing to gain from lying at this point, considering he has given all of this info in sworn testimony to the FBI in PRIVATE, which ended up going public due to Stern's greed.


Right, wouldn't Donaghy really have more to lose by lying?


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## budselig (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> Could the people who don't think it's fixed in a lot of games at least tell us why horrible officiating is allowed to continue league wide?


Maybe it's really, really hard to ref a game moving at the speed the NBA game does? I know I had trouble with third graders. Another thing - why are sixty-seventy year old nonathletes like Knick Bavetta still reffing games, running up and down the court with blackletes a third of their age? If thirty years of experience makes the better ref despite advanced aging, strike the previous sentence, but somehow I doubt it.

The fact that the refs are unionized can only be harmful. I don't know what competency standards are, but they are almost certainly measured based on meeting a threshold level + seniority, as opposed to a 'most accurate' level that would be more likely sans union. Confusing, incompetent wording there, but basically the current performance/advancement standard is likely one of non-atrociousness as opposed to one of excellence.


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Jonathan Watters said:


> I think Stern has a heck of a lot more motivation to lie at this point than Donaghy does. He's merely confirming what we've all seen for years and years, and Stern is playing the classic big bully liar game. He refuses to acknowledge even the slightest possibility of wrongdoing on anyone's part but Donaghy's and expects people to take him at face value based on who he is, blatantly refusing to offer up any sort of evidence that any real inquiries have taken place.
> 
> The entire process is even less transparent than it was before, even though everyone everywhere EXCEPT for Stern seems to believe transparency is necessary at this point. Stern won't even acknowledge the idea, continuing to believe that he is the only one who doesn't need to provide proof of truthfulness and that this will eventually blow over.
> 
> ...


Agreed. What Stern said the public afterwards was laughable, all he managed to do was remind us that Donaghy was a felon, and try to convince everyone that his claims were "baseless" which they absolutely are not. Unfortunately, unless higher ups (including Stern himself) are investigated, there will not be an answer to this (there may not even if they are). Until then, Stern's plans for the league to investigate into these allegations are all hot air, as Donaghy's allegations are of the league itself.

If anything good was to come out of it, I imagine the referees officiating to nothing but the fairest standard for the rest of the finals. But no matter what outcome, what should have been the best finals matchup we've had in years, will always be tainted by the officiating in game 2 proceeding these allegations.


----------



## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



carrrnuttt said:


> http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=NBA+Conspiracy
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I got different results



> Results 1 - 10 of about 478,000 for nfl conspiracy. (0.06 seconds)





> Results 1 - 10 of about 459,000 for nba conspiracy. (0.04 seconds)


Most of the NFL conspiracy theories have been circulating because of Spygate since September. The NBA will likely catch up in a little bit.


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

That gm 6 in 2002 that Donaghy is talking about was the most fishy game I've ever watched. 16 out of the last 18 points that the Lakers scored were FTs and who will ever forget Bibby bleeding on the floor at the end with no call. Were the refs punished for this? Why isn't there any transparency? Stern is a completely abhorerrent POS. He has nearly ruined my favorite sport. I truly despise this man. 

Not only that, the 2006 Finals were certainly rigged as well. Anybody that watched that series has to come to that conclusion. 

If the NBA had any integrity, the refs in both situations would have been fired immediately after the season. The fact that they weren't indicates that there is some sort of conspiracy, explicit or implicit. Perhaps by allowing these clowns to continue reffing, Stern is giving his tacit approval or perhaps he explicitly instructed them.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



budselig said:


> Maybe it's really, really hard to ref a game moving at the speed the NBA game does? I know I had trouble with third graders. Another thing - why are sixty-seventy year old nonathletes like Knick Bavetta still reffing games, running up and down the court with blackletes a third of their age? If thirty years of experience makes the better ref despite advanced aging, strike the previous sentence, but somehow I doubt it.
> 
> The fact that the refs are unionized can only be harmful. I don't know what competency standards are, but they are almost certainly measured based on meeting a threshold level + seniority, as opposed to a 'most accurate' level that would be more likely sans union. Confusing, incompetent wording there, but basically the current performance/advancement standard is likely one of non-atrociousness as opposed to one of excellence.


So the fact that players are young and black is why they can't officiate correctly? That caused them to think that kobe elbowing mike bibby in the face was a foul on bibby? That's nonsense.


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## budselig (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I really wouldn't be surprised if Stern instituted some sort of compartmentalized chain of influence down to the refs that eventually helped determine the outcome of playoff games. He's been commish of the league for decades, and he's got to be feeling omnipotent at this point. Regardless, i hope that EDIT pig stern is slaving away in some south pacific prison camp by this time next year.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Roscoe Sheed said:


> That gm 6 in 2002 that Donaghy is talking about was the most fishy game I've ever watched. 16 out of the last 18 points that the Lakers scored were FTs and who will ever forget Bibby bleeding on the floor at the end with no call. Were the refs punished for this? Why isn't there any transparency? Stern is a completely abhorerrent POS. He has nearly ruined my favorite sport. I truly despise this man.
> 
> Not only that, the 2006 Finals were certainly rigged as well. Anybody that watched that series has to come to that conclusion.
> 
> If the NBA had any integrity, the refs in both situations would have been fired immediately after the season. The fact that they weren't indicates that there is some sort of conspiracy, explicit or implicit. Perhaps by allowing these clowns to continue reffing, Stern is giving his tacit approval or perhaps he explicitly instructed them.


If not rigged by the league then the refs certainly at least had an agenda. Regardless, something needs to give because this type of officiating has gone on far too long without punishment to anyone whether Stern or the officials themselves.

Another example (I especially love the play at 2:45 with Danny Crawford staring right at the play)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/T6SpBM8dB4k&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/T6SpBM8dB4k&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

These are just examples of games where the refs are far too blatant in their bias for it be even close to reasonable.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



budselig said:


> I really wouldn't be surprised if Stern instituted some sort of compartmentalized chain of influence down to the refs that eventually helped determine the outcome of playoff games. He's been commish of the league for decades, and he's got to be feeling omnipotent at this point. Regardless, i hope that EDIT pig stern is slaving away in some south pacific prison camp by this time next year.


So he's a horrible piece of **** b/c he's jewish and the refs can't call games correctly because of all the "blackletes"? EDIT


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## budselig (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> So the fact that players are young and black is why they can't officiate correctly? That caused them to think that kobe elbowing mike bibby in the face was a foul on bibby? That's nonsense.


Dear fora denizen:

I'd like to clarify my statements. Although your initial remark was addressed to people who believe that games were not rigged, I am not among them. I just wanted to throw out some reasons that refereeing in this league may fall short of reasonable expectations regardless of influence from the man on top. Whenever i see that sixty-seventy year old man running around out there with all these young super athletes, i get the feeling that maybe, just maybe we as fans are not receiving the best officiating possible. It crosses my mind.


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## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



rock747 said:


> Right, wouldn't Donaghy really have more to lose by lying?


You just said what I said, but in a different way. Think about it.


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## rock747 (Aug 3, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



carrrnuttt said:


> You just said what I said, but in a different way. Think about it.


right, i was agreeing.:biggrin:


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## SlamJam (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

i wonder if phil jackson feels maybe there should be a *** put next to the 2002 title, like he said there should be for the spurs 1999 championship.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Jonathan Watters said:


> You don't think Stern isn't compensated when the league does well? You think a guy who becomes commisioner of the freaking NBA is looking for a well established, secure job? You think he doesn't have far-reaching plans to expand the influence and earning power of the league already in place?
> 
> Huh?


stern gets compensated when the league does well through his next contract, not through huge bonus money for a good year. the point of stern being secure is that he doesn't have to take huge risks to keep his job. he is firmly established, and probably the only things that could compromise his job security are scandals such as this. how could david stern blow his job? by fixing games. oh yeah, it's also about the only way he could go to jail. having the lakers win a 3rd title in a row instead of just 2 isn't really worth the risk in the context of what he personally stood to gain, and what he stood to lose.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Sometimes officiating is just bad.

Then other times.....
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZYF_emoL3Yw&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZYF_emoL3Yw&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Qi55kwI8B3w&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Qi55kwI8B3w&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DBe9SP2O0C0&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DBe9SP2O0C0&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> stern gets compensated when the league does well through his next contract, not through huge bonus money for a good year. the point of stern being secure is that he doesn't have to take huge risks to keep his job. he is firmly established, and probably the only things that could compromise his job security are scandals such as this. how could david stern blow his job? by fixing games. oh yeah, it's also about the only way he could go to jail. having the lakers win a 3rd title in a row instead of just 2 isn't really worth the risk in the context of what he personally stood to gain, and what he stood to lose.


First off, I'm failing to understand where the risk is for Stern. The league has been noticeably fixed for years, and nobody does anything. Coaches and players allude to it on a regular basis, and yet people are still sitting here claiming it isn't true. A ref was arrested by the FBI, (note that doesn't say outed by the NBA's internal process), and some people still don't see it. It had almost completely blown over before Donaghy's recent specific revelations. If Stern thinks all he has to do is deny, deny, deny, there isn't much risk in it for him at all. 

Secondly, I'd add that it is very possible/likely that the gambling industry has been involved in the NBA for much longer than Stern has been around. It might be hard for a commissioner to untie the league from such an association without ramifications, especially in terms of retaliation from less reputable types who would obviously go after the league's image the same way Donaghy has. It seems very shortsighted to say that the only risky move would be to participate in fixing games. 

Finally, if we look at the decisions Stern has made over the years, we don't see a person content to sit back and rest in a secure job at the top of his profession. We see a person more than willing to take risks, always looking to expand and innovate. Stern's history is much more consistent to that of a CEO of a major corporation than it is to somebody with a cushy, low-risk job. Furthermore, if you've looked into people who make it as far in life as Stern has, the vast majority of them wouldn't know how to sit back and not take risks. That's just not the way these people are wired.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



SlamJam said:


> i wonder if phil jackson feels maybe there should be a *** put next to the 2002 title, like he said there should be for the spurs 1999 championship.


Great question.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Spaceman Spiff said:


> Sometimes officiating is just bad.
> 
> Then other times.....
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZYF_emoL3Yw&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZYF_emoL3Yw&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
> ...


lol, yeah, those 3 clips prove that the nba hates yao ming and conspiring against him... look at the way the commentators are complaining. it's no surprise that a rockets fan posted these clips of games being covered by rockets broadcasters.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> So the fact that players are young and black is why they can't officiate correctly? That caused them to think that kobe elbowing mike bibby in the face was a foul on bibby? That's nonsense.


Woah woah woah woah woah... According bballlife that was a "double foul" or a "no call"...


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



afobisme said:


> lol, yeah, those 3 clips prove that the nba hates yao ming and conspiring against him... look at the way the commentators are complaining. it's no surprise that a rockets fan posted these clips of games being covered by rockets broadcasters.


I don't like the Rockets at all but it's pretty clear he's the worst officiated player in the entire league. Not sure what you're talking about.



Hibachi! said:


> Woah woah woah woah woah... According bballlife that was a "double foul" or a "no call"...


lol I didn't see that post.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

It's the one in the playoff forum, about Donaghy. It's downright laughable...


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Drewbs said:


> If not rigged by the league then the refs certainly at least had an agenda. Regardless, something needs to give because this type of officiating has gone on far too long without punishment to anyone whether Stern or the officials themselves.
> 
> Another example (I especially love the play at 2:45 with Danny Crawford staring right at the play)
> 
> ...


Come on, by now you should know that only Lakers and Kobe benefit from the calls, rest of the league just conspire against other team and side with Kobe.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Jonathan Watters said:


> Let's face it - if the guy had anything convincing to refute Donaghy's claims, why not just release it to the public? Case closed, game over. He would be crazy NOT to release it. Of course, that's if he has it. Which he most obviously doesn't....


what information could stern potentially have to refute this? i could see there being proof of it happening but i don't see how there could be proof that it didn't happen.


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## budselig (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I hope that gent Donaghy comes out with a book naming names if his allegations are true, Jose Canseco-style. It wasn't until Canseco's book that baseball, and the federal government as well, started cracking down on the MLB. Also, it could provide the outcast Donaghy and his three children with some income that may be hard to come by after he is released from prison.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I don't see why the NBA shouldn't instruct refs to not eject a star player. At least give them extra slack. As for the fouls, everything in basketball is now a foul. So the refs can pick and choose whom to call. I don't see what the problem is unless your team's strategy to win hinges on getting a certain player into foul trouble (then you don't deserve to win IMO). I have no problem with a foul being called on Oberto instead of Duncan or Walton instead of Kobe. I'd rather my team won/lost with the opposing team's best players out there. As long as the foul is called, ****, you can call it on the 12th man sitting on the bench for all I care! 

Change the shooting foul to a free throw and the ball out of bounds with a fresh shot clock and eliminate personal fouls. Just make them team fouls and after a 5 you get. After 5 fouls, any foul is a free throw and the ball out of bounds with a new shot clock.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Uh oh. The plot thickens...



> Two former NBA referees told ESPN on Thursday that federal investigators had questioned them about referee Dick Bavetta while conducting their probe into Tim Donaghy.
> 
> Former referee Hue Hollins said Thursday on ESPN's Outside The Lines that federal investigators "questioned me about Dick Bavetta more than they did about Tim Donaghy."
> 
> ...


Soooooo, if the NBA has nothing to hide, why not let everyone have a look at the reports?


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

It just keeps getting smellier...


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## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Are those records made public to begin with? Let's not jump into conclusions, as tempting as this is.

Since it's out in the open, I guess they are smart enough to know that hiding stuff won't do them any good, so I'd think there is a reasonable explanation on why that request was denied.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Plastic Man said:


> Are those records made public to begin with? Let's not jump into conclusions, as tempting as this is.
> 
> Since it's out in the open, I guess they are smart enough to know that hiding stuff won't do them any good, so I'd think there is a reasonable explanation on why that request was denied.


The most reasonable explanation is that they don't want anyone to see what's in there.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

they're working on getting their stories straight. This will be a coverup of grassy knoll proportions.

Is it time to bump all the "refs can't determine the outcome of a game" posts?


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Plastic Man said:


> Are those records made public to begin with? Let's not jump into conclusions, as tempting as this is.
> 
> Since it's out in the open, I guess they are smart enough to know that hiding stuff won't do them any good, so I'd think there is a reasonable explanation on why that request was denied.


Reason is not the issue. Lakers detractors feel that they have the team and their fans backed into a corner and nothing is going to stop them. It has been this way for years and now that we matter again(after a very brief hiatus), it's going to pick back up. If the Lakers pull it off against the Celtics, they will crawl back into a hole until the next opportunity. The horribly officiated game in 2002 and possibility of a fix is disgusting in every sense of the word. But integrity of the NBA is the not the issue with these guys by any means. They hate the Lakers and their fans and this is their chance for validation. Better to hope and pray the Lakers can pull it off and we'll enjoy our field day  Until then, better to just let them be.


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## Plastic Man (Nov 8, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

But surely if the whole thing goes further the investigators (whoever they might be) can subpoena these records, right? So it's coming out sooner or later.

@BH: of course. I understand that... I even posted similar sentiments regarding the "incident" in another thread. We all pretty much know the likes of Hibachi and SPMJ don't care about the integrity of the league, the ramifications, the solutions. The most important thing is to sport an avatar with a huge * next to the Lakers championship. How utterly pathetic.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Bartholomew Hunt said:


> Reason is not the issue. Lakers detractors feel that they have the team and their fans backed into a corner and nothing is going to stop them. It has been this way for years and now that we matter again(after a very brief hiatus), it's going to pick back up. If the Lakers pull it off against the Celtics, they will crawl back into a hole until the next opportunity. The horribly officiated game in 2002 and possibility of a fix is disgusting in every sense of the word. But integrity of the NBA is the not the issue with these guys by any means. They hate the Lakers and their fans and this is their chance for validation. Better to hope and pray the Lakers can pull it off and we'll enjoy our field day  Until then, better to just let them be.


What does the NBA's covering up crooked refereeing have to do with the Lakers? The NBA has been taking steps to plug this investigation since the story broke, and claim that there's just a single referee that's ever been involved with gamblers and tainted the results of games. I don't buy it for a ****ing minute. Never have. The Lakers, like every other team, have undoubtedly been both the beneficiary and victim of tank jobs. They just happened, however, to have been the beneficiary of one of the most famous tank jobs there's been. But, frankly, my first concern is cleaning up the ****ing sport so that it _doesn't_ turn into professional wrestling.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



ehmunro said:


> What does the NBA's covering up crooked refereeing have to do with the Lakers? The NBA has been taking steps to plug this investigation since the story broke, and claim that there's just a single referee that's ever been involved with gamblers and tainted the results of games. I don't buy it for a ****ing minute. Never have. The Lakers, like every other team, have undoubtedly been both the beneficiary and victim of tank jobs. They just happened, however, to have been the beneficiary of one of the most famous tank jobs there's been. But, frankly, my first concern is cleaning up the ****ing sport so that it _doesn't_ turn into professional wrestling.


Then obviously my post wasn't directed towards you.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA



> Not that Kings fans needed more fuel for their conspiracy fire, but there is a rather odd development to the Game 6 controversy. Several of my colleagues say they've previously viewed video clips on YouTube of each game from the infamous 2002 Western Conference playoff series between the Kings and Lakers.
> 
> But as of today, clips of Game 6 are missing. All the other games are there. You can watch highlights of Kobe Bryant scoring 30 points in Game 1 and the clips from the deciding overtime in Game 7 remain. Another NBA blogger also picked up on the missing clips.
> Where did Game 6 go? YouTube won't say.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

That's just sad.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



ehmunro said:


> What does the NBA's covering up crooked refereeing have to do with the Lakers? The NBA has been taking steps to plug this investigation since the story broke, and claim that there's just a single referee that's ever been involved with gamblers and tainted the results of games. I don't buy it for a ****ing minute. Never have. The Lakers, like every other team, have undoubtedly been both the beneficiary and victim of tank jobs. They just happened, however, to have been the beneficiary of one of the most famous tank jobs there's been. But, frankly, my first concern is cleaning up the ****ing sport so that it _doesn't_ turn into professional wrestling.


:clap:


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## joser (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

we are better off watching the harlem globe trotters


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## Trayhezy (May 19, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I am bothered that there are still a few who give Stern such a benefit of a doubt. This guy is as shady as they come. Even if you think that Stern would not do this because he has too much to lose and nothing to gain, then I will ask you this...........Why would he go after Donaghy for a million dollars "restitution" for the NBA's investigation? A million is pocket change for the NBA, so he has nothing to gain. He just wanted to try to bury this guy so that no one would ever hear from him again and he thought he had nothing to lose. The guy just did not go away quietly and came back and bit him in the ***.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

One thing I don't get is why the Sternbot would target Yao, his bridge to China. Especially for someone he eternally clashes with in Cuban.

This will forever change the way I look at the league though..this is almost taking it into the professional wrestling realm for me.

I was on my soapbox about people reading too much into officiating, but there's definitely precedence now.


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## budselig (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

The scary thing is, Donaghy was a pretty young guy: mid to late thirties during the, uh, "prime" of his career. He probably wasn't privy to the kind of info that the real veteran refs were because the NBA wasn't dumb enough to let everyone in on its machinations. Who knows how many deals with Satan, err, Stern, guys like Bavetta struck over the years? I also wonder whether Donaghy's willingness to alter the outcome of games for gambling purposes stemmed from his knowledge that key playoff games were fixed in the first place. Why not make a little profit on the side if the games aren't legitimate anyway? That doesn't make his actions OK, but corruption up top seems more likely to spawn corruption further down. It reminds me of that 1980's era anti-drug commercial punchline: "I learned it from watching you."


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I don't know if we can put anything on this but really, why would the NBA deny requests from ESPN to interview Bavetta or see the Game 6 (SAC-LAL) post-game report, as well as attempt to take down any clips of Game 6? Its pretty clear that if they arn't hiding their end of it, they're atleast trying to silence the whole situation rather than completing a real investigation on anything..


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



> But integrity of the NBA is the not the issue with these guys by any means. They hate the Lakers and their fans and this is their chance for validation


yeah, but which was first? the hate for the lakers, or the refs giving lakers a win against a favourite team? for me the laker hate started in 2000. I'm sure stern didn't want a portland-indiana finals..


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Dre™ said:


> One thing I don't get is why the Sternbot would target Yao, his bridge to China. Especially for someone he eternally clashes with in Cuban.


good question, dre. why would he?


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I think if anyone from the league office was aware of it, someone would have leaked it a long time ago (disgruntle employee...etc.) I also agree with Dre, why would he target Yao who has been a great asset to the league? I honestly think their is some corruption going on, but it's almost like a clique of refs that were doing it for either financial gains, or some other favors and not the Commish.

Edit: As for stopping Bavetta from being interview by the media, that is the norm for the league. They have someone from media relations to handle all inquiries and that type of policy goes for most leagues. The only time I saw a ref being interview was Bavetta duing the Charles Barkley All-Star race.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



budselig said:


> The scary thing is, Donaghy was a pretty young guy: mid to late thirties during the, uh, "prime" of his career. He probably wasn't privy to the kind of info that the real veteran refs were because the NBA wasn't dumb enough to let everyone in on its machinations. Who knows how many deals with Satan, err, Stern, guys like Bavetta struck over the years? I also wonder whether Donaghy's willingness to alter the outcome of games for gambling purposes stemmed from his knowledge that key playoff games were fixed in the first place. Why not make a little profit on the side if the games aren't legitimate anyway? That doesn't make his actions OK, but corruption up top seems more likely to spawn corruption further down. It reminds me of that 1980's era anti-drug commercial punchline: "I learned it from watching you."



on the flip side, the veteran refs who have more established reputations, more secure jobs, less time till retirement, are the ones who the nba would approach to fix games? and the one ref who did fix games, because of gambling debt, is the one guy who blows the whistle at his own sentencing time, with zero evidence?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

What's interesting is how Delaney came out and said he wasn't interviewed...but as far as I know he didn't rail against Donaghy.

This guy is the former law enforcement official if I'm not mistaken...he worked undercover with the mob...I have a feeling if interviewed he'd drop some more bombs.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> on the flip side, the veteran refs who have more established reputations, more secure jobs, less time till retirement, are the ones who the nba would approach to fix games? and the one ref who did fix games, because of gambling debt, is the one guy who blows the whistle at his own sentencing time, with zero evidence?


What kind of evidence would you be expecting in a case like this other than the overwhelming visual evidence that the officiating is incredibly bad in a way that goes well beyond simple incompetence?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> What kind of evidence would you be expecting in a case like this other than the overwhelming visual evidence that the officiating is incredibly bad in a way that goes well beyond simple incompetence?


you haven't yet answered why they all did it. or how the conspiracy to fix games was carried out. and why the only person speaking out is the con. if the fix was in, there should be some evidence to support why the fix was in. money? for who? is there a trail? who is fixing games, risking jail, and why? or you're saying the league office was ok with blatantly fixing games completely without care of negative consequences, so the league had more tv revenue to share, even if it screwed some of the franchises they're representing.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> wait a minute though.. isn't this the message board where people swear up and down that referees can't determine the outcomes of games?


Heh, kind of funny how that works out, right? That's only the argument if your team is the benficiary of bad calls - duh.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> you haven't yet answered why they all did it.


you mean saying that fixing games for increased revenue/ratings/catering to stars like jordan/gambling payoffs/storylines wasn't enough of an explanation? Really?



> or how the conspiracy to fix games was carried out. and why the only person speaking out is the con.


Because in all areas of society the one who's caught is the one that's usually leaned on to do the talking? I don't understand why you're saying that the people who aren't being caught would talk about it. What a weird post.



> if the fix was in, there should be some evidence to support why the fix was in.


Did you see me mention michael jordan's pushoff against the Jazz as clear evidence? lol. Does that not count? I mean seriously he SHOVED his defender out of the way for christ's sake.



> money? for who? is there a trail? who is fixing games, risking jail, and why? or you're saying the league office was ok with blatantly fixing games completely without care of negative consequences, so the league had more tv revenue to share, even if it screwed some of the franchises they're representing.


Then why don't you go ahead and break down for me why a control freak like Stern allows this kind of officiating to ACCIDENTALLY happen for 20years? Why are these guys still in the business?


Seriously please tell me. And if you can tell me why players like Shaq have talked about games being predetermined that would also help.



unluckyseventeen said:


> Heh, kind of funny how that works out, right? That's only the argument if your team is the benficiary of bad calls - duh.




I mean honestly man I'm all for overcoming adversity but if they give your star player 3 fouls in 4 minutes and he has to leave a game I have a feeling it might determine a game.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> Did you see me mention michael jordan's pushoff against the Jazz as clear evidence? lol. Does that not count? I mean seriously he SHOVED his defender out of the way for christ's sake.


Actually, what's also VERY smelly about this situation are the other calls that took place in that game. And guess who was officiating it? Yep - Bavetta.

The two calls I'm referring to is late in the 2nd quarter Eisley buried a 3 just as the shot clock expired. If you go back and watch it, it's about halfway to the basket before the shot is waived off, not even close. Guess who called it? Yep - Bavetta.

Later in the game, Ron Harper hits a baseline 2 after the shot clock expiration that is counted, even though it's obvious that he didn't get it off in time.

So, putting those together, that's a 5-point swing in a game that was decided by one point (MJ's supposed pushoff, although I personally don't think it's really as bad as it looks on film). Still, though, it just confirms that the NBA has dirty laundry and has had it for a LONG ****ing time. This needed to happen. I'm happy that it is happening, and I can't believe any fan supporting the NBA here. Donaghy's got nothing to lose, sure, but what does he have to gain by talking? I believe him. There's just too much **** going against the NBA here for it to all be a coincidence.


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Dick Bavetta could not possibly have anything to do with this!! Noo!!!!!!!


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## budselig (Jun 18, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> on the flip side, the veteran refs who have more established reputations, more secure jobs, less time till retirement, are the ones who the nba would approach to fix games? and the one ref who did fix games, because of gambling debt, is the one guy who blows the whistle at his own sentencing time, with zero evidence?


I think the NBA would approach whoever it trusted most to make calls in the direction it wanted, and I think the longest tenured refs are most likely to be the most trusted. Like Donaghy they probably picked up the gist of how certain games are asked to be called over the years, and eventually slid into the role of actually doing it. The fact that Donaghy is a malcontent doesn't sway me either way, because whistle blowers are generally malcontents. Not that the claim that he's doing it for spite, or whatever, is dismissible, just that it makes complete sense for the guy who has nothing to lose to drop the bomb that hurts everyone else.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



unluckyseventeen said:


> Actually, what's also VERY smelly about this situation are the other calls that took place in that game. And guess who was officiating it? Yep - Bavetta.
> 
> The two calls I'm referring to is late in the 2nd quarter Eisley buried a 3 just as the shot clock expired. If you go back and watch it, it's about halfway to the basket before the shot is waived off, not even close. Guess who called it? Yep - Bavetta.
> 
> ...



One thing I don't get is people trying to act like it makes them a better fan to ignore these things. Aside from those specifics MJ regularly got weird things allowed like how he could defend people in the post and grab them before and after they got the ball with no calls.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



unluckyseventeen said:


> This needed to happen. I'm happy that it is happening, and I can't believe any fan supporting the NBA here. Donaghy's got nothing to lose, sure, but what does he have to gain by talking? I believe him. There's just too much **** going against the NBA here for it to all be a coincidence.


This is exactly what I'm saying!? Why come out and lie!? I know everyone in the media is gonna be all professional about it and throw Donaghy under the bus as a "disgraced lying convict" but us as fans of the game know better. And us as fans have already let it be known about conspiracy suspicions for years. Jazz fans and the 5pt swing in a 1pt game, Rocket fans with anything Yao, Kings fans still wondering about their 2002 title. The fans won't just throw him away like that because there is real credibility in what's being said here. Even today I just read that during the Donaghy investigations that investigators were looking into Dick Bavetta sometimes more than Donaghy himself. Another ref(forgot his name) said that during a playoff game an NBA Official let it be known to "watch out for this guy"...... (I'm 95% sure "this guy" refers to Yao)

Sometimes these games were just to fishy. Calls so bad they couldn't be the result of just mere incompetence. I believe this man 100%. I'm no fool. Any fan of the NBA would take what he says seriously and ignore the crap that Stern and others are doing to dismiss whatever credibility he has left.


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## Smez86 (Jun 29, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I think there's a difference between conspiracy theorists, supporters who realize the game is susceptible to such corruption, and bitter fans (see above).


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> you mean saying that fixing games for increased revenue/ratings/catering to stars like jordan/gambling payoffs/storylines wasn't enough of an explanation? Really?


again, who was personally benefiting, at what risk? donaghy is going to jail for fixing games on his own because of his gambling debt. what did the others personally stand to gain? or were they simply doing it as good soldiers for their bosses, the owners, who make the real money, but weren't in on the gig?



essbee said:


> Because in all areas of society the one who's caught is the one that's usually leaned on to do the talking? I don't understand why you're saying that the people who aren't being caught would talk about it. What a weird post.


i'm saying that in a conspiracy such as this, without significant monetary gain, what keeps it all in-house over years?



essbee said:


> Did you see me mention michael jordan's pushoff against the Jazz as clear evidence? lol. Does that not count? I mean seriously he SHOVED his defender out of the way for christ's sake.


no, it doesn't count. it's often shown as the premier highlight of his career to celebrate how great he was. that you see it only as evidence of a fix doesn't mean that you're in a majority. 



essbee said:


> Then why don't you go ahead and break down for me why a control freak like Stern allows this kind of officiating to ACCIDENTALLY happen for 20years? Why are these guys still in the business?


without a ref caught fixing games on his own because of his own gambling, all we'd have would be a minority of disgruntled fans of teams crying about individual games over the years. refereeing is difficult, and you'll always have people complaining. people complain. they complain in baseball, football, hockey, soccer, etc.



essbee said:


> Seriously please tell me. And if you can tell me why players like Shaq have talked about games being predetermined that would also help.


because shaq is complaining about how he's officiated, and always thinks he's being fouled. and he's officiated inconsistently.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

and i'm not saying that there aren't possibly other officials who are attempting to fix games under similar circumstances as donaghy, although it's unlikely due to how their financial situations have been investigated. just that a league mandate to fix games doesn't make sense. again, just ask yourself, to who's benefit, and at what risk.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

i mean, you guys are saying it was in the leagues financial interest to blatantly and unashamedly fix games for all to see, and not care. for 20 years! obviously with complicity from all franchise owners, some of whom would be adversely affected by said conspiracy. and none who have come forward until now, the guy who was independently fixing games on his own.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> again, who was personally benefiting, at what risk? donaghy is going to jail for fixing games on his own because of his gambling debt. what did the others personally stand to gain? or were they simply doing it as good soldiers for their bosses, the owners, who make the real money, but weren't in on the gig?


I again think this has already been answered with the fact that the growth of the league meant job security and increased pay. Look for example at Stern's rising annual salaries. And AGAIN I point out that Bud Selig knew fully about steroids in baseball but ignored it b/c he wanted the league to grow after the strike. The idea just isn't that foreign.



> i'm saying that in a conspiracy such as this, without significant monetary gain, what keeps it all in-house over years?


you haven't explained how there's not a significant monetary gain in making sure michael jordan, the most popular man in america, wins championships. Again, I'm not sure what you're talking about here. It's almost like you think there's no reason to do it unless you see a paycheck from Stern to a ref saying "thanks for making that game go 7 games so we got more coverage and ad placement".




> no, it doesn't count. it's often shown as the premier highlight of his career to celebrate how great he was. that you see it only as evidence of a fix doesn't mean that you're in a majority.


Lol. If the roles were reversed and Jordan was being shoved aside I assume you think the call would have been the same?



> without a ref caught fixing games on his own because of his own gambling, all we'd have would be a minority of disgruntled fans of teams crying about individual games over the years.


And you're wrong, we also have a lot of former fans of the league complaining about it. Also as the board demonstrates complaining about game officiating is not isolated or limited, and the people who do it aren't a minority.



> refereeing is difficult, and you'll always have people complaining. people complain. they complain in baseball, football, hockey, soccer, etc.


It's difficult to call Steve Francis for travelling when he takes 8 steps from half court with only one dribble? Really Kflo that's a tough call? Do I have to post the clip AGAIN?



> because shaq is complaining about how he's officiated, and always thinks he's being fouled. and he's officiated inconsistently.


right... so if JVG and Tim Hardaway and John Salley and all these other players talk about the same thing you're just gonna keep writing it off as coincidence forever.. right? This is like the R. Kelly jury selection skit on the Chapelle show.


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## squeemu (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> and i'm not saying that there aren't possibly other officials who are attempting to fix games under similar circumstances as donaghy, although it's unlikely due to how their financial situations have been investigated. just that a league mandate to fix games doesn't make sense. again, just ask yourself, to who's benefit, and at what risk.


Also, if the league fixed games/series, why would the Spurs go to the finals so many times? Apparently they are a ratings nightmare. Sure, one ref might help the Spurs win for gambling purposes, but why would the league do it? 



Why would the Lakers and Clippers not have met in the Western Conference semi-finals two years ago? That would have been amazing for the league, and the Lakers were up 3-1 in the first round. Especially with the close games in that series, it wouldn't have been hard to rig it to give the Lakers a slight boost.

There are always a couple of examples of "conspiracy", but there are always way more counterexamples. Sometimes reffing just sucks, especially in front of a home crowd. Sometimes games that REALLY don't matter have terrible reffing. One I can think of is the Clippers-Nuggets game three of the first round two years ago. The Clippers couldn't breathe on anybody without getting a foul called on them. It was seriously as bad or worse than game 6 of the 2002 finals. If that game had taken place in the finals, everybody would be yelling "conspiracy!" Instead, I recognize it for what it is...a bad reffing night. Since the game didn't matter, and the Clippers won the series 4-1, why would the league rig that game? Maybe the league needs to hire better refs, but there's no conspiracy.

P.S. Here is the boxscore of that nightmarish game. 40 fouls, two foul outs, three players with five fouls, and two others with 4. This is just one of hundreds of examples...
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=260427007


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

right - we can point to a jordan game and say look, they wanted to go global around their centerpiece, then look at a rockets game/series and say they were trying to keep yao out of the playoffs?


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Right - so there's no indication that the league would pander to fan interest instead of worrying about improving the game -- even though they got rid of barriers to high scoring and instituted a dress code to get rid of the hip hop element in the sport?


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> Right - so there's no indication that the league would pander to fan interest instead of worrying about improving the game -- even though they got rid of barriers to high scoring and instituted a dress code to get rid of the hip hop element in the sport?


to kind of coincide with that, why in the bloody hell did they ban mp3 players during warmups?


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



squeemu said:


> Also, if the league fixed games/series, why would the Spurs go to the finals so many times? Apparently they are a ratings nightmare. Sure, one ref might help the Spurs win for gambling purposes, but why would the league do it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just because a few games are thrown doesn't mean that every game is going to be thrown. I'd have thought that after such a long post you'd have realized the obvious. I guess not.

Although, I guess in your mind, one rigged game among several others that supposedly aren't is just okay with you. There's all this evidence pointing toward one or two games being rigged, but it's okay, right? It's all about entertainment, not the integrity of the sport, right? Sorry, dude, but as an NBA fan I want to know that competition is what it is, not what it's "supposed to be". Zero rigged games. Plenty of other instances of fair play doesn't make the foul play acceptable.


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## squeemu (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=260427007

Look at that box score. This game was just as bad, if not worse, than game 6 of the 2002 finals. It just was a game that didn't matter. Sometimes big games are poorly reffed. Sometimes games that don't matter are poorly reffed. There are hundreds of other examples of poorly reffed games, but I'm not going to look them all up. The point I'm trying to make is, just because game 6 of the 2002 finals was poorly reffed (I doubt anyone would argue that the reffing was fair) it doesn't prove it was a conspiracy. Just because something could have happened, it doesn't mean it did happen.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



squeemu said:


> ^The game wasn't rigged. It was poorly reffed. There's a difference. Welcome to the real world.


Hahaha, bull****. Did you read Simmons' article? In fact, did you even watch the game? Did you watch Lakers/Blazers in 2000?

More like welcome to the real world for you. A guy with nothing to gain is revealing testimony and you'll side with the NBA, huh? Have fun in fantasy land. Lakers rule.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



squeemu said:


> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=260427007
> 
> Look at that box score. This game was just as bad, if not worse, than game 6 of the 2002 finals. It just was a game that didn't matter. Sometimes big games are poorly reffed. Sometimes games that don't matter are poorly reffed. There are hundreds of other examples of poorly reffed games, but I'm not going to look them all up.


I've said it once and I'll say it again: Box scores don't prove anything in this circumstance. How are you ever going to prove a conspiracy or disprove it with numbers? I could say the Jazz got screwed in game 1 and 2 vs LA this year, because Kobe shot tons of free throws. That doesn't prove ****, because all of the fouls were legitimate, and I'd sound like an idiot if I said that. Strange coincidence..

Watch the game footage instead of pulling up arbitrary statistics.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> Right - so there's no indication that the league would pander to fan interest instead of worrying about improving the game -- even though they got rid of barriers to high scoring and instituted a dress code to get rid of the hip hop element in the sport?


there's no indication the league would criminally alter the outcome of games. you understand there's a difference between pandering to fan interest by imposing rules on players and committing felony acts continuously over a 20 year period, right? 

there's a difference between passively accepting steroids in baseball and criminally FIXING GAMES in basketball.


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## squeemu (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



unluckyseventeen said:


> I've said it once and I'll say it again: Box scores don't prove anything in this circumstance. How are you ever going to prove a conspiracy or disprove it with numbers? Watch the game footage instead of pulling up arbitrary statistics.


I watched that game. It was TERRIBLE. Since it wasn't a highly publicized game, I guess you are going to have to take my word for it, because most people probably don't remember it. Trust me on this one, it was one of the worst games I have ever seen in terms of reffing. It was almost 3 hours long due to all the free throws! I know we have all seen regular season games that were exactly the same. 

I actually think a conspiracy would be funny. I also wish it were true, because I hate the Lakers. However, I have a feeling it's not. If it is, it certainly would make for an interesting story.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> there's no indication the league would criminally alter the outcome of games. you understand there's a difference between pandering to fan interest by imposing rules on players and committing felony acts continuously over a 20 year period, right?
> 
> there's a difference between passively accepting steroids in baseball and criminally FIXING GAMES in basketball.


Yes, huge difference between looking the other way during cheating that increases popularity and orchestrating cheating that increases popularity. Huge difference.

Did you want me to post the Steve Francis travel?


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I was relating the box score situation to game 6, actually. Not that particular game.

Still, though, the issue at hand is that Donaghy is saying some third party is tampering with officiating, and Bavetta apparently is being investigated by the FBI. I mean, put two and two together here... and like I've stated, the two guys giving the dirt are two people that gain nothing if what they say is actually proven true. So, what's the point in lying?

This is just way too big of a coincidence to write it off. There seem to be too many things that have gone on over the last few years that hint at the officiating being so bad that it can't be coincidental, and especially in such important places. People have just been afraid to really say anything, because players/coaches get fined, Stern immediately discredits whoever is talking about it... it just seems like one cover after another.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> Yes, huge difference between looking the other way during cheating that increases popularity and orchestrating cheating that increases popularity. Huge difference.
> 
> Did you want me to post the Steve Francis travel?


yes, there's a huge difference between felony acts and acts that aren't criminal. 

wft do i care about a steve francis travel? if you're not talking about game fixing, you're on a different topic than i am.


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## rock747 (Aug 3, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1457311

here some great playoff games officiated by Dick "Knick" bavetta.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> yes, there's a huge difference between felony acts and acts that aren't criminal.
> 
> wft do i care about a steve francis travel? if you're not talking about game fixing, you're on a different topic than i am.


I figure if you and all the other apologists want to hold onto the "reffing is hard" nonsense I'll show you some things that aren't remotely difficult to call.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> I figure if you and all the other apologists want to hold onto the "reffing is hard" nonsense I'll show you some things that aren't remotely difficult to call.


are you arguing that the league hasn't strictly enforced the rules to the letter and taken liberty with allowing some violations to occur, or are you arguing that the league is fixing games? and are you arguing that letting an obvious (but fan pleasing) call go means the game is easy to ref? how do we get from a francis walk to reffing is easy and the league is fixing games? i mean, tim duncan waltzed through the lane this year against the lakers in an obvious walk but wasn't called. what do we make of that? the fix was in?


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> are you arguing that the league hasn't strictly enforced the rules to the letter and taken liberty with allowing some violations to occur, or are you arguing that the league is fixing games? and are you arguing that letting an obvious (but fan pleasing) call go means the game is easy to ref? how do we get from a francis walk to reffing is easy and the league is fixing games? i mean, tim duncan waltzed through the lane this year against the lakers in an obvious walk but wasn't called. what do we make of that? the fix was in?


Unfortunately what you're doing is something I already exposed in another thread, which is suggesting that if fixes are obvious in a lot of games then it means that in order for this idea to be true every single game in the history of the NBA where there was a bad call was fixed. This is an attempt to create a strawman by indicating that my point is all games with bad calls are fixed. Let's go ahead and make the points simple so you can't lie again about what the points are.


1)The point was and remains that while there is terrible officiating there is also a lot of instances where refs are not simply incompetent but are intentionally influencing the directions of the games. The excuse that it's hard to officiate the sport is pretty stupid.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nTftJcSExPg&hl=en"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nTftJcSExPg&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


2)This influence takes the form of game fixing games/point shaving/referee bias (you don't think it's weird that a guy who challenged a player to a fight is still an official? Really?). 

3)If David Stern, one of the biggest control freaks in all of sports, felt that the kind of officiating we're talking about was a huge detriment to the league and went against his wishes, he'd have overhauled it long ago.

4)IF the NBA officiating was as good as people are pretending it was, Donaghy's so-called isolated point shaving officiating would have stood out like a sore thumb. It didn't. In fact it didn't appear any worse than several other refs. Again, for the question about Stern's reaction to this, see #3. You and the other apologists would do well to ask yourselves why Donaghy's officiating didn't stand out as being especially bad since he successfully influenced games and didn't attract attention.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> Unfortunately what you're doing is something I already exposed in another thread, which is suggesting that if fixes are obvious in a lot of games then it means that in order for this idea to be true every single game in the history of the NBA where there was a bad call was fixed.  This is an attempt to create a strawman by indicating that my point is all games with bad calls are fixed. Let's go ahead and make the points simple so you can't lie again about what the points are.


actually, you'd have to have poor reading skills to conclude that is what i'm doing. seriously.



essbee said:


> 1)The point was and remains that while there is terrible officiating there is also a lot of instances where refs are not simply incompetent but are intentionally influencing the directions of the games. The excuse that it's hard to officiate the sport is pretty stupid.


the point that refs don't strictly enforce traveling or carrying does not mean they are fixing games, or even biasing games in a specific direction. are the refs in your clip in on an attempt to tilt the game towards the rockets? is this your charge? 

and are you saying that it's easy to ref, and that it should be easy to have games where the refereeing is not questioned by either side?



essbee said:


> 2)This influence takes the form of game fixing games/point shaving/referee bias (you don't think it's weird that a guy who challenged a player to a fight is still an official? Really?).


pretty big leap to go to game fixing from consistently being lax on traveling. why would stern put the fix in for the rockets and steve francis in a regular season game? 



essbee said:


> 3)If David Stern, one of the biggest control freaks in all of sports, felt that the kind of officiating we're talking about was a huge detriment to the league and went against his wishes, he'd have overhauled it long ago.


maybe he hasn't felt the refereeing has been as agregious as you? and maybe he feels comfortable with the control environment they have in place, despite the flaws.



essbee said:


> 4)IF the NBA officiating was as good as people are pretending it was, Donaghy's so-called isolated point shaving officiating would have stood out like a sore thumb. It didn't. In fact it didn't appear any worse than several other refs. Again, for the question about Stern's reaction to this, see #3. You and the other apologists would do well to ask yourselves why Donaghy's officiating didn't stand out as being especially bad since he successfully influenced games and didn't attract attention.


and maybe you should ask the same question of yourself and the fans. how can a ref influence the outcome of games without being obvious? oh, right, because there's lots of game fixing that you couldn't pick out donaghy's game fixing. donaghy the independent fixer, mixed in with all the other league sponsored fixers. 

because, uh, because, uh......


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> actually, you'd have to have poor reading skills to conclude that is what i'm doing. seriously.


No, you'd have to have poor reading skills to so poorly restate what has been said so clearly. 



> the point that refs don't strictly enforce traveling or carrying does not mean they are fixing games, or even biasing games in a specific direction. are the refs in your clip in on an attempt to tilt the game towards the rockets? is this your charge?


The non-calls of things like traveling is indicative of a league that will put entertainment before the quality of the actual sport. It's the sign of a league where integrity and gamesmanship are unimportant, where a guy can take 8 steps and not get called for traveling just b/c he did a cool And-1 style dunk. Let me know if this is confusing.



> and are you saying that it's easy to ref, and that it should be easy to have games where the refereeing is not questioned by either side?


once again you re-state things incorrectly in an attempt to create a strawman. Your new strawman is that I'm saying it's easy to have games where refs aren't questioned by either side. What did you say about poor reading skills? 



> pretty big leap to go to game fixing from consistently being lax on traveling. why would stern put the fix in for the rockets and steve francis in a regular season game?


Actually the underlying principle is a league that puts pandering ahead of integrity. Again, if still confusing let me know.



> maybe he hasn't felt the refereeing has been as agregious as you? and maybe he feels comfortable with the control environment they have in place, despite the flaws.


And I'm sure you believe every word that comes out of the Keebler elf's mouth. If he's happy with the state of officiating in the NBA you've made all my points for me. Thank you.



> and maybe you should ask the same question of yourself and the fans. how can a ref influence the outcome of games without being obvious? oh, right, because there's lots of game fixing that you couldn't pick out donaghy's game fixing. donaghy the independent fixer, mixed in with all the other league sponsored fixers.
> 
> because, uh, because, uh......


So your answer is that I should ask the same question of myself? Could you do a more horrible job of dodging the question? 

So again, if the officiating is any good, why did a guy fixing games not stand out? Thanks in advance for what I'm sure will be a nice direct answer.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> No, you'd have to have poor reading skills to so poorly restate what has been said so clearly.
> 
> 
> 
> The non-calls of things like traveling is indicative of a league that will put entertainment before the quality of the actual sport. It's the sign of a league where integrity and gamesmanship are unimportant, where a guy can take 8 steps and not get called for traveling just b/c he did a cool And-1 style dunk. Let me know if this is confusing.


what's confusing is how this ties to actually criminally fixing games. 



essbee said:


> once again you re-state things incorrectly in an attempt to create a strawman. Your new strawman is that I'm saying it's easy to have games where refs aren't questioned by either side. What did you say about poor reading skills?


is it easy to ref or not? 



essbee said:


> Actually the underlying principle is a league that puts pandering ahead of integrity. Again, if still confusing let me know.


again, what's confusing is how this ties to criminally fixing games.



essbee said:


> And I'm sure you believe every word that comes out of the Keebler elf's mouth. If he's happy with the state of officiating in the NBA you've made all my points for me. Thank you.


you're asking why he hasn't done anything. 



essbee said:


> So your answer is that I should ask the same question of myself? Could you do a more horrible job of dodging the question?
> 
> So again, if the officiating is any good, why did a guy fixing games not stand out? Thanks in advance for what I'm sure will be a nice direct answer.


good officiating is your strawman, not mine. i'm arguing against a stern lead conspiracy to criminally fix games. 


you're the one making claims of fixing games. and your proof of fixing games is that you don't think the refereeing is any good. and they don't call traveling.


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## Redeemed (Feb 2, 2008)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Soo what would happen if the NBA was shut down for good?


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I agree with a blogger who stated he would liked to have heard Donaghy point out a non super recognized game as a way to give more credit to the idea of a conspiracy. Say you had nothing but you were trying to get some leverage for a plea bargain the first game that would come to mind is that Game 6 for the Kings.

That being said: imagine being in Webber, Divac's, Peja's, and Bibby's shoes right now. Webber in particular whose career got tagged with also ran label: pretty depressing from there standpoint


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## Burn (Feb 2, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I seriously doubt the games are fixed in the way that some of you are suggesting, where Stern is outright telling referees to make sure certain teams win. I think that the refs know what Stern wants and let it affect their playcalling. 

The single worst example of this outside of game 6 was the Wolves/Lakers game 3 the following year. Some of you might remember; Lakers were down 5 with a few seconds left, Kobe made a 3 and the refs called a foul on Wally for a 4 point play. Only problem was, Wally didn't come within a foot of him. Then they called a foul on Rasho a few seconds later and Kobe ties the game up and it goes to OT (Rasho fouls out). Then they foul out Garnett 12 seconds into overtime. Wolves still stuck it out against the refs will. 

I'm not going to ever accept that as bad as the refs are, that they were THAT bad without it being purposeful. They knew it was not in the NBA's interest to have the Lakers going out in the first round.

Interestingly, if you go the wikipedia page for the 2003 nba playoffs, there are nba.com recaps for every game and all of them seem to work except for Wolves/Lakers games 3 and 4...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_NBA_Playoffs

The only recap I could find was this one from ESPN, you'll notice the phrase 'questionable call' used over and over for calls against the Wolves late in the game. There has never been a more questionable call in history than that Kobe 4 point play though. 
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=230424013


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Burn said:


> I seriously doubt the games are fixed in the way that some of you are suggesting, where Stern is outright telling referees to make sure certain teams win. I think that the refs know what Stern wants and let it affect their playcalling.
> 
> The single worst example of this outside of game 6 was the Wolves/Lakers game 3 the following year. Some of you might remember; Lakers were down 5 with a few seconds left, Kobe made a 3 and the refs called a foul on Wally for a 4 point play. Only problem was, Wally didn't come within a foot of him. Then they called a foul on Rasho a few seconds later and Kobe ties the game up and it goes to OT (Rasho fouls out). Then they foul out Garnett 12 seconds into overtime. Wolves still stuck it out against the refs will.
> 
> ...


that game with the t-wolves/lakers was awful. Must just be a coincidence that the lakers keep popping up in this discussion. My bad.


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## squeemu (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Burn said:


> Interestingly, if you go the wikipedia page for the 2003 nba playoffs, there are nba.com recaps for every game and all of them seem to work except for Wolves/Lakers games 3 and 4...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_NBA_Playoffs


The recaps are there, they are not linked to properly from Wikipedia. You should always go the distance and do about 2 seconds of extra research when Wikipedia is involved and you are implying that there is some sort of conspiracy.
http://www.nba.com/games/20030427/MINLAL/recap.html
http://www.nba.com/games/20030424/MINLAL/recap.html


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## squeemu (Jan 25, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

It would be hilarious if all this was true, though.


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## joser (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



squeemu said:


> It would be hilarious if all this was true, though.


I hope it is all true.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

I don't understand people doubting that games were fixed. There is a guy that is going to jail for it in Tim Donaghy... I don't understand people denying it when it's right in front of their face. This whole "I dunno, I don't think refs fixed games" is a whole bunch of bullcrap. Tim Donaghy is going to jail for the very same thing you are constantly denying. To pretend like he was a lone ranger that gamblers depended on to fix games is simply being naive. There is no way he acted alone, and there is no way this operation would even be implemented if he was the only person acting on it.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Pioneer10 said:


> I agree with a blogger who stated he would liked to have heard Donaghy point out a non super recognized game as a way to give more credit to the idea of a conspiracy. Say you had nothing but you were trying to get some leverage for a plea bargain the first game that would come to mind is that Game 6 for the Kings.


People seem to overlook the fact that he's gonna have to provide actual evidence for his claims. When you consider he wasn't apart of that officiating crew...im very anxious to see what physical evidence he has. I can say that game was rigged but I was no closer to Staples than he was that day


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Hibachi! said:


> I don't understand people doubting that games were fixed. There is a guy that is going to jail for it in Tim Donaghy... I don't understand people denying it when it's right in front of their face. This whole "I dunno, I don't think refs fixed games" is a whole bunch of bullcrap. Tim Donaghy is going to jail for the very same thing you are constantly denying. To pretend like he was a lone ranger that gamblers depended on to fix games is simply being naive. There is no way he acted alone, and there is no way this operation would even be implemented if he was the only person acting on it.


is anyone denying that donaghy was trying to fix games? and it's not that he was the lone ranger that gamblers depended on, it's, as far as we know now, he was the only one who got himself in enough gambling trouble that he was desperate enough to start trying to fix. the investigation following donaghy wasn't some internal nba investigation, it was a federal investigation. and what operation are you talking about? donaghy, who doesn't seem to hesitate to spill the beans, hasn't made any claims about acting anything other than alone in his fixes.


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## Ice Nine (Apr 3, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Whatever amount of truth there may be in Donaghy's allegations, I just hope it puts an end to the superstar system (and David Stern).


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Donaghy never tried to fix games,that was beyond his capabilities.He was driving up the scores of games by making sure that more free throws were shot by both teams and betting the over.


One referee would never be able to reliably impact the outcome of a game by himself,Donaghy certainly understood that.He was only trying to make sure that both teams scored more total points than the handicappers said they would.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Diable said:


> Donaghy never tried to fix games,that was beyond his capabilities.He was driving up the scores of games by making sure that more free throws were shot by both teams and betting the over.
> 
> 
> One referee would never be able to reliably impact the outcome of a game by himself,Donaghy certainly understood that.He was only trying to make sure that both teams scored more total points than the handicappers said they would.


I think the most convincing evidence of conspiracy in this situation isn't Donaghy, but on Outside the Lines they had Hue.. I forget his last name, but he was a former referee. He was saying that prior to some games, some kind of league official would talk to the referees before the game and tell them to pay close attention to situation X or player Y. He also mentioned he was consistently contacted by law enforcement about Dick Bavetta and it seemed like he was talking a lot more about Bavetta than anything else concerning officiating. I'm not sure if many people saw that, but when I was watching it, it was like "OK, this is about impossible to refute or discredit because this guy isn't Donaghy, and now we have conspiracy cries from the inside, from two different sources".

Why the hell would somebody from the league talk to the refs about officiating, prior to the game, for any reason? That just smells so bad, it's ridiculous.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3444557


> Report: Retired NBA ref refutes Donaghy allegations
> 
> 
> One of three referees to officiate Game 6 of the 2002 Lakers-Kings series recalls it much the same as everyone else -- except Tim Donaghy.
> ...


So he realized he didn't ref a good game afterwards!? WTF!!? This is confirmation that this game was rigged. An off night!? Come the **** on. All 3 officials had an "off-night". Are we really supposed to believe this guy!?

Tim Donaghy for president!!!


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



unluckyseventeen said:


> I think the most convincing evidence of conspiracy in this situation isn't Donaghy, but on Outside the Lines they had Hue.. I forget his last name, but he was a former referee. He was saying that prior to some games, some kind of league official would talk to the referees before the game and tell them to pay close attention to situation X or player Y. He also mentioned he was consistently contacted by law enforcement about Dick Bavetta and it seemed like he was talking a lot more about Bavetta than anything else concerning officiating. I'm not sure if many people saw that, but when I was watching it, it was like "OK, this is about impossible to refute or discredit because this guy isn't Donaghy, and now we have conspiracy cries from the inside, from two different sources".
> 
> Why the hell would somebody from the league talk to the refs about officiating, prior to the game, for any reason? That just smells so bad, it's ridiculous.


What a lot of people also don't realize is that these are two completely different subjects. We were talking about Donaghy adding or subtracting false free throws to cover spreads to officials completely fixing games. Investigators asking more questions about Dick Bavetta than Dongahy himself. 

Player Y is obviously Yao, and coming from me it might be blatant homerism, but who else sees such horrendous calls/non-calls every game.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



unluckyseventeen said:


> I think the most convincing evidence of conspiracy in this situation isn't Donaghy, but on Outside the Lines they had Hue.. I forget his last name, but he was a former referee. He was saying that prior to some games, some kind of league official would talk to the referees before the game and tell them to pay close attention to situation X or player Y. He also mentioned he was consistently contacted by law enforcement about Dick Bavetta and it seemed like he was talking a lot more about Bavetta than anything else concerning officiating. I'm not sure if many people saw that, but when I was watching it, it was like "OK, this is about impossible to refute or discredit because this guy isn't Donaghy, and now we have conspiracy cries from the inside, from two different sources".
> 
> Why the hell would somebody from the league talk to the refs about officiating, prior to the game, for any reason? That just smells so bad, it's ridiculous.


"What about senior NBA officials visiting the referees locker room before games especially during the playoffs, did that happen during your tenure?"

Hue Hollins: "Yes it did."

Hue Hollins: "you don't need an individual coming in telling you what to watch for and what to call."
link


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Hibachi! said:


> I don't understand people doubting that games were fixed. There is a guy that is going to jail for it in Tim Donaghy... I don't understand people denying it when it's right in front of their face. This whole "I dunno, I don't think refs fixed games" is a whole bunch of bullcrap. Tim Donaghy is going to jail for the very same thing you are constantly denying. To pretend like he was a lone ranger that gamblers depended on to fix games is simply being naive. There is no way he acted alone, and there is no way this operation would even be implemented if he was the only person acting on it.


There is one major question that needs to be answered before I give any credence to this concept of engaging in the largest racketeering ring of all time in the NBA is that: where's the money? I assume all refs are paid equally and if some are "company" men and fix games, then where are their bonuses? Wouldn't the IRS be pretty good at that? How hard would it be to subpoena all financial records of two men for 10 years back and compare it to his income? If I had a job and they asked me to do something above and beyond my job description that would entail me risking jail time, I would require that I be monetarily compensated. I think any of us would ask the same. So where is their money? 

To me this appears to be someone yelling bomb on an airplane now that everyone is looking for one.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Hibachi! said:


> I don't understand people doubting that games were fixed. There is a guy that is going to jail for it in Tim Donaghy... I don't understand people denying it when it's right in front of their face. This whole "I dunno, I don't think refs fixed games" is a whole bunch of bullcrap. Tim Donaghy is going to jail for the very same thing you are constantly denying. To pretend like he was a lone ranger that gamblers depended on to fix games is simply being naive. There is no way he acted alone, and there is no way this operation would even be implemented if he was the only person acting on it.


Agree on all fronts. 

The people who are somehow still deluding themselves into thinking the league isn't fixed on some level are using the argument that since it can't be proven definitively, they choose not to believe it. That is their right, but it isn't an argument. The amazing thing is that games are obviously still being fixed, in this very NBA finals - that is how deep this problem runs...


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Jonathan Watters said:


> Agree on all fronts.
> 
> The people who are somehow still deluding themselves into thinking the league isn't fixed on some level are using the argument that since it can't be proven definitively, they choose not to believe it. That is their right, but it isn't an argument. The amazing thing is that games are obviously still being fixed, in this very NBA finals - that is how deep this problem runs...


the lack of evidence of a fix plus the lack of motive for a fix certainly isn't as good an argument as "i don't like the officiating and smell something fishy".


----------



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> the lack of evidence of a fix plus the lack of motive for a fix certainly isn't as good an argument as "i don't like the officiating and smell something fishy".


You do realize that despite offshore gambling being illegal, American citizens are able to sign up for an account with no problem whatsoever, right? 

You do realize that the agent industry has been funneling money through runners for decades with no government scrutiny, don't you? 

You obviously have some fairly severe misconceptions about what the goverment controls, is capable of controlling, or even wants to control. 

Like I said - if the only proof you'll accept is a signed confession from Stern, you probably are going to think there is a lack of evidence. 

There is a clear pattern of inconsistency, and not even the slightest effort from the league to refute such claims other than blanket denials. This is not how an innocent party acts. 

All evidence is circumstantial, but we've already caught Stern in a lie since the "scandal" popped up again, claiming that no other referees have been investigated by the FBI just a day before the talk of Bevetta being investigated comes out. 

We also know that for years the league touted its self-policing system as fool proof evidence that there was nothing going on, only to find out that Donaghy has been fixing and that he in no way, shape, or form sticks out. 

But none of this would lead me to believe anything without the context of consistently horrifically biased officiating for home teams, large market teams, and teams about to be eliminated from the playoffs. 

If you are a basketball fan and didn't notice it, maybe you just weren't paying attention close enough, or don't understand the game. Maybe you've never tried to follow the flow of calls within a game. But those who have know that this stuff has been going on for a long time and is continuing to go on since the scandal broke - and that all the circumstantial findings since then only confirm a rock solid pattern that's been in place for years.

You are starting to sound like a goon from the NBA's legal team, and that just makes me sick. There's no reason to protect these people who have been taking advantage of fans of the sport like the NBA has.


----------



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

And the fact that you can't see a motive is proof enough that you aren't interested in any sort of reasonable debate about whether the league is fixed or not. That's no less ridiculous than saying the Celtics don't have a motive to win game 6. All the motives for the league to fix games have been mentioned here repeatedly, and you clearly have no answer for them. 

So just keep repeating yourself, and then you don't have to make an actual argument. That's the strategy now? 

If you want to be the league's lawyer, you should try to gain employment from the league instead of wasting your time posting lies on a message board for free.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Jonathan Watters said:


> You do realize that despite offshore gambling being illegal, American citizens are able to sign up for an account with no problem whatsoever, right?
> 
> You do realize that the agent industry has been funneling money through runners for decades with no government scrutiny, don't you?
> 
> ...


you haven't provided ANY evidence. i'm not looking for a signed confession from stern. i'm looking for ANY evidence. plus a solid motive given the risks involved. who is committing the felony crimes and why? what are the motivations, where is the evidence, where is the money? pointing to a game tape and saying look at these bad calls doesn't work. you can point to game tape in any game anywhere in the world, in just about every sport. we have 1 guy who admittedly worked alone. that's the evidence we have right now. signed confession from stern? how about something. anything. not you can't see it but it's there speak.


----------



## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> you haven't provided ANY evidence. i'm not looking for a signed confession from stern. i'm looking for ANY evidence.


A pattern of inconsistent officiating for certain groups of teams is major evidence. Donaghy's claims, Van Gundy's claims, (both of which can be backed up with tape) Stern's lies since the scandal blew up again, are all evidence. How is this not evidence? 



> plus a solid motive given the risks involved.
> 
> who is committing the felony crimes and why? what are the motivations, where is the evidence, where is the money?


Where is the money? What the heck kind of ridiculous question is this? 

The money is the pocket of the league after an extra game in the finals! The money is in the increased revenue for the major markets! The money is in better tickets sales that inevitably follow home wins! 



> pointing to a game tape and saying look at these bad calls doesn't work. you can point to game tape in any game anywhere in the world, in just about every sport.


Which is all fine and dandy, if that is what we were doing. You know full well we aren't. And that's a pretty broad claim, to say that similar things are happening everywhere else in the world in any other sport. For somebody who has such a stringent definition of the term "evidence", you sure know how to jump off the deep end into unsubstantiated speculation the minute it suits you. 



> we have 1 guy who admittedly worked alone. that's the evidence we have right now. signed confession from stern? how about something. anything. not you can't see it but it's there speak.


You are probably one of those arrogant people who thinks that something is true as long as they repeat it. Well, I can tell you that isn't the case.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Jonathan Watters said:


> And the fact that you can't see a motive is proof enough that you aren't interested in any sort of reasonable debate about whether the league is fixed or not. That's no less ridiculous than saying the Celtics don't have a motive to win game 6. All the motives for the league to fix games have been mentioned here repeatedly, and you clearly have no answer for them.
> 
> So just keep repeating yourself, and then you don't have to make an actual argument. That's the strategy now?
> 
> If you want to be the league's lawyer, you should try to gain employment from the league instead of wasting your time posting lies on a message board for free.


the league is the representative of the franchise owners. they, the ones you seem to believe are committing felonies, are risking jail time, for what? seriously, do you have any idea what you are talking about? what is the personal gain for a league representative to commit a felony by fixing games so that the owners have more money to split amongst themselves? what is the personal gain for the refs to commit felonies for all to see on national tv? and why would the teams themselves conspire to have some games fixed against them? reasonable debate? you're presenting nothing, nothing but some bad or missed calls. and alot of tin hat.


----------



## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Jonathan Watters said:


> Where is the money? What the heck kind of ridiculous question is this?
> 
> The money is the pocket of the league after an extra game in the finals! The money is in the increased revenue for the major markets! The money is in better tickets sales that inevitably follow home wins!


but where is the money for the refs? where is the incentive for them to commit these crimes? i'm pretty sure that's what he's asking. of course the league is better off with the big markets winning and series going to game 7s.


----------



## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> you haven't provided ANY evidence. i'm not looking for a signed confession from stern.


Wow. You're expecting the guy that's supposedly putting this all together to just give up, after how far he's gone to discredit anybody that complains about officiating, he discredits Donaghy coming up with the first insult he can think as a reason to not believe him... what the hell do you expect? A signed confession? Why didn't we just ask Clinton for a signed confession when he was going through impeachment proceedings? I mean, it's just that easy, right?

My problem with your approach to this is you're asking for things that obviously aren't there, and probably never will be.



> we have 1 guy who admittedly worked alone. that's the evidence we have right now.


And who labeled him as "rogue"? Stern? He didn't admittedly work alone if he's stating other times where other officials were in on it, too, otherwise he'd be totally contradicting himself UNDER OATH. Donaghy isn't an idiot. And let's take a look at this guy. Convicted felon? Yes. But what is lying about the NBA going to do for him, at this point? If they find out he was lying, his sentence is probably going to get increased for lying under oath. This guy has absolutely nothing to gain and a ton to lose by ratting the NBA out on this. What's up with the FBI investigating Bavetta? Hm? What's with a former official stating that there were league officials tampering with officiating crews prior to a game? I mean, it's just bull****, because it's not a written confessional from Stern, right?

If you're going to argue about evidence, don't ask for something that will never exist. Try looking at the scenario, or just quit trying. This situation is even more obvious than Donaghy's, and they busted him. It's only a matter of time before the NBA's dirty laundry is totally aired out, and you know it. Otherwise, what kind of unbelievable coincidence would it be if TWO former officials are saying the NBA is tampering with officiating? If it looks like ****, smells like ****, feels like **** and tastes like **** - guess what? It's probably ****. Your arguments against these facts are ridiculous - asking for a signed confessional. Haha. Wow.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Jonathan Watters said:


> A pattern of inconsistent officiating for certain groups of teams is major evidence. Donaghy's claims, Van Gundy's claims, (both of which can be backed up with tape) Stern's lies since the scandal blew up again, are all evidence. How is this not evidence?


van gundy didn't claim the nba was fixing games.




Jonathan Watters said:


> Where is the money? What the heck kind of ridiculous question is this?
> 
> The money is the pocket of the league after an extra game in the finals! The money is in the increased revenue for the major markets! The money is in better tickets sales that inevitably follow home wins!


do you understand who is getting the money? do you have any idea? the people committing the felonies aren't the ones who end up with the money in their pockets. why is this hard to understand?



Jonathan Watters said:


> Which is all fine and dandy, if that is what we were doing. You know full well we aren't. And that's a pretty broad claim, to say that similar things are happening everywhere else in the world in any other sport. For somebody who has such a stringent definition of the term "evidence", you sure know how to jump off the deep end into unsubstantiated speculation the minute it suits you.


those similar things i'm talking about are missed and bad calls. take off your tin hat for a sec and you'd realize i'm not talking about another huge worldwide conspiracy.





Jonathan Watters said:


> You are probably one of those arrogant people who thinks that something is true as long as they repeat it. Well, I can tell you that isn't the case.


i'm looking for evidence of game fixing. not evidence of bad calls. i've umpired a handful of little league games and made some bad calls myself. maybe i was fixing games and i didn't even know it!


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



unluckyseventeen said:


> Wow. You're expecting the guy that's supposedly putting this all together to just give up, after how far he's gone to discredit anybody that complains about officiating, he discredits Donaghy coming up with the first insult he can think as a reason to not believe him... what the hell do you expect? A signed confession? Why didn't we just ask Clinton for a signed confession when he was going through impeachment proceedings? I mean, it's just that easy, right?
> 
> My problem with your approach to this is you're asking for things that obviously aren't there, and probably never will be.
> 
> ...


try reading again. thx. is it that hard to read?


----------



## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



rocketeer said:


> but where is the money for the refs? where is the incentive for them to commit these crimes? i'm pretty sure that's what he's asking. of course the league is better off with the big markets winning and series going to game 7s.


It's not like they are issuing checks with "rigging bonus" labeled clearly on the check. What do you expect? If there is something going on, they're not going to be stupid and make it obvious that the refs were getting extra money for it.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> try reading again. thx. is it that hard to read?


Try responding to my post instead of ****ting out another terrible argument. You're asking for a written confessional from somebody conspiring to commit crimes, or committing them. The way you ask for evidence, crimes would never get solved unless criminals just walked up to law enforcement and gave up every single time.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> the league is the representative of the franchise owners. they, the ones you seem to believe are committing felonies, are risking jail time, for what? seriously, do you have any idea what you are talking about? what is the personal gain for a league representative to commit a felony by fixing games so that the owners have more money to split amongst themselves? what is the personal gain for the refs to commit felonies for all to see on national tv? and why would the teams themselves conspire to have some games fixed against them? reasonable debate? you're presenting nothing, nothing but some bad or missed calls. and alot of tin hat.


Because nobody involved in high stakes businesses who make large amounts of money would ever risk that to make a little more money. Ever. History proves this. No CEO has ever been caught in a financial scandal, there has never been an episode of price fixing, and the government is opnipotent - so obviously they catch people long before they even attempt these things.

You saw the fact-based Steven Spielberg documentary called Minority Report, so you obviously know these things are true...

...and once again, if you can't understand how the league stands to make money from home teams winning games, large market teams winning games, and series being extended...you obviously aren't interested in the truth. Just keep saying there's no motivation, maybe one morning you'll wake up and it will be true.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



unluckyseventeen said:


> Try responding to my post instead of ****ting out another terrible argument. You're asking for a written confessional from somebody conspiring to commit crimes, or committing them. The way you ask for evidence, crimes would never get solved unless criminals just walked up to law enforcement and gave up every single time.


except i didn't ask for a written confessional. that's why i'm asking you to freakin read. is it that freakin hard????


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> van gundy didn't claim the nba was fixing games.


Nope, just like the NBA doesn't fix games. We get it. As long as you pretend the evidence that is out there doesn't exist, you can claim there is no evidence. 




> do you understand who is getting the money? do you have any idea? the people committing the felonies aren't the ones who end up with the money in their pockets. why is this hard to understand?


Its hard to understand because your arguments are so far out in fantasy camp there's no way to respond to them. Do you have referees' tax documents? Do you have year-end financial reports for all 30 NBA teams? Have you proven that the money isn't there? Or is it as simple as you being intent on arguing something that couldn't be countered with more official clearance than the pentagon? 



> those similar things i'm talking about are missed and bad calls. take off your tin hat for a sec and you'd realize i'm not talking about another huge worldwide conspiracy.


Given the pattern that already exists, the burden of proof would be on the league to show that there ISN'T a conspiracy. They haven't attempted that, and neither have you. Such responses speak for themselves. 



> i'm looking for evidence of game fixing. not evidence of bad calls. i've umpired a handful of little league games and made some bad calls myself. maybe i was fixing games and i didn't even know it!


Because, once again, we are idiots who saw a couple of bad calls and are trying to drum up controversy. It isn't a 20-year clear-cut pattern, proof of deception on the part of NBA higher ups, proof of a ref fixing, proof of the league not being able to pinpoint that corrupt ref despite claiming their system is foolproof, and numerous other comments from NBA types that imply some sort of corruption. Just idiots who saw a couple of bad calls. 

Just like GW went to Iraq for WMD's...i mean, to save the Iraqi people...

actually, quite a bit less plausible than that.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Jonathan Watters said:


> Because nobody involved in high stakes businesses who make large amounts of money would ever risk that to make a little more money. Ever. History proves this. No CEO has ever been caught in a financial scandal, there has never been an episode of price fixing, and the government is opnipotent - so obviously they catch people long before they even attempt these things.
> 
> You saw the fact-based Steven Spielberg documentary called Minority Report, so you obviously know these things are true...
> 
> ...and once again, if you can't understand how the league stands to make money from home teams winning games, large market teams winning games, and series being extended...you obviously aren't interested in the truth. Just keep saying there's no motivation, maybe one morning you'll wake up and it will be true.


WHO IS THE LEAGUE???? instead of talking about general institutions, who are the PEOPLE making all this money??? the league reps are all salaried employees. the owners, the real "league", are the ones who get the additional revenue. are they in on it? the rockets conspire against themselves and then have their coach complain about it? who's committing the felonies to make the money? please, don't give me "the league". give me the people, and how they profit.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Like I said...if you think David Stern doesn't have the motivation to increase the profitability of the league because he is a salaried employee, you are in no way, shape, or form looking for anything except the ability to deny, deny, deny. 

And if you think owners don't benefit from increasing league profitability, you are in no way, shape, or form looking for anything except the ability to deny, deny, deny. 

Stern has every motivation in the book - maybe you believe this is cold war era East Germany, but you are mistaken on that...


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> except i didn't ask for a written confessional. that's why i'm asking you to freakin read. is it that freakin hard????


I didn't see that first part correctly, so that's my fault. Although, to my own defense, your wording later in your post really sucks. And I quote:



> that's the evidence we have right now. signed confession from stern? how about something. anything. not you can't see it but it's there speak.


....oooook?

Anyway, that doesn't change my stance that you're looking for unrealistic evidence. Two different sources cite that they knew about the NBA tampering with officiating. You must be expecting the money that was transferred somewhere or another to just show up on a check, or show up in the NBA's books. They're not stupid. If they did something shady, why would they make it obvious? Why wouldn't they just say "here, and clearly marked on the check is the bonus you recieve for making X and Y call that we asked you to make", right? It sounds as if you're looking for a confessional before you'll take anybody's word for it, honestly. What does the former NBA ref (Hue Hollins) have to lose by stating the NBA was tampering with officiating? Is he behind bars? It's one thing for Stern to say "don't believe this man (Donaghy), because he's a felon", but what about Hollins? Have you heard Stern say anything about that? What a coincidence.

Two separate, reasonable sources stating that somebody was tampering with NBA officiating seems reason enough to believe it. Again, you sound like you're looking for some kind of paper trail and shady deals to be fully documented by the NBA's accountants. What, exactly, are you defending anyway?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



unluckyseventeen said:


> I didn't see that first part correctly, so that's my fault. Although, to my own defense, your wording later in your post really sucks. And I quote:


a simple i was wrong would probably have been more appropriate here, instead of continuing to be a dick.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> a simple i was wrong would probably have been more appropriate here, instead of continuing to be a dick.


I read back through your post realizing I was wrong and trying to think why I would have made such a dumb mistake. But, then I realized that it wasn't difficult to be confused because your final few sentences didn't make any sense at all. Saying "a signed confessional?" with sentences preceeding and following it that don't have anything to do with it makes it a little hard to understand, don't you think? Alligator. About 5:30?

Funny how suddenly I'm a dick when you're saying I can't read, even though the reason I was mixed up to begin with was due to your inability to form paragraphs that actually make any sense. A simple mistake, sure, but calling me a dick for making a mistake when it was your post that caused it seems a little contradictory.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Jonathan Watters said:


> Like I said...if you think David Stern doesn't have the motivation to increase the profitability of the league because he is a salaried employee, you are in no way, shape, or form looking for anything except the ability to deny, deny, deny.


i'm saying his motivation is far less than someone who gets a huge winfall of cash or options from increased revenue. he's not paid like a ceo, his goals are different than a ceo. he doesn't have huge incentive compensation. he gets a salary. a large salary. a large salary if the lakers make the finals, and an equally large salary if the kings make it. his salary likely goes down if he's arrested for a felony. 



Jonathan Watters said:


> And if you think owners don't benefit from increasing league profitability, you are in no way, shape, or form looking for anything except the ability to deny, deny, deny.


i've continually stated the owners themselves are the ones who profit. so now, are the maloofs in on the conspiracy to keep their franchise down? what about mark cuban? he in on it? 



Jonathan Watters said:


> Stern has every motivation in the book - maybe you believe this is cold war era East Germany, but you are mistaken on that...


every motivation in the book to commit felony? lol. his incentive is to act in the best interests of the league. not to bring it down in scandal.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



unluckyseventeen said:


> I read back through your post realizing I was wrong and trying to think why I would have made such a dumb mistake. But, then I realized that it wasn't difficult to be confused because your final few sentences didn't make any sense at all. Saying "a signed confessional?" with sentences preceeding and following it that don't have anything to do with it makes it a little hard to understand, don't you think? Alligator. About 5:30?
> 
> Funny how suddenly I'm a dick when you're saying I can't read, even though the reason I was mixed up to begin with was due to your inability to form paragraphs that actually make any sense. A simple mistake, sure, but calling me a dick for making a mistake when it was your post that caused it seems a little contradictory.


try again. you're usually not a dick, so i'm puzzled why you're going so far out here.



> that's the evidence we have right now. signed confession from stern? how about something. anything. not you can't see it but it's there speak.


i was responding to someone who thought i needed a signed confession. i obviously don't. i want something, anything. if you can't follow that, i'm sorry, it's really your continued problem. seriously.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

do you understand that i was responding to someone who brought up the signed confession? this isn't that hard to follow. one would think.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

is it actually a felony for the refs to affect the results of the games, if they are not betting on or in any other way getting anything out of it? and if that is what their employers want? I mean this donaghy investigation is done because it involves betting, but what if those refs didn't bet on the games they fixed?

just an honest question because I don't know.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> try again. you're usually not a dick, so i'm puzzled why you're going so far out here.


Heh, I'm really just joking around now. It was a stupid mistake, so, oh well. Forget it. 

I see you're also not responding to what I was talking about in my other posts, anyway, so I guess you're not very interested in addressing the other points. Whatever.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



el_Diablo said:


> is it actually a felony for the refs to affect the results of the games, if they are not betting on or in any other way getting anything out of it? and if that is what their employers want? I mean this donaghy investigation is done because it involves betting, but what if those refs didn't bet on the games they fixed?
> 
> just an honest question because I don't know.


A relevant question, but not as relevant as the fact that it would be darn near impossible to prove that they were fixing, since the NBA obviously isn't going to write it in big black type in their financial records. 

And in kflo's mind, that means the NBA isn't doing anything influence the outcome of games. 

For people not trying to find work with the league office, it takes a little bit more than this.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



kflo said:


> i'm saying his motivation is far less than someone who gets a huge winfall of cash or options from increased revenue. he's not paid like a ceo, his goals are different than a ceo. he doesn't have huge incentive compensation. he gets a salary. a large salary. a large salary if the lakers make the finals, and an equally large salary if the kings make it. his salary likely goes down if he's arrested for a felony.


You don't really think this. Have you ever left the front door of mommy's house? Spent a minute in the business world?



> i've continually stated the owners themselves are the ones who profit. so now, are the maloofs in on the conspiracy to keep their franchise down? what about mark cuban? he in on it?


What, you want me to provide you with specific names of the people involved? Beyond it being a ridiculous request, it has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand. 



> every motivation in the book to commit felony? lol. his incentive is to act in the best interests of the league. not to bring it down in scandal.


So since every leader of every company to ever exist has always followed the rules down to the letter so as not to jeopordize the entity they represent, even when such rulebreaking would be preposterously easy to pull off without anybody noticing, obviously...I'll just stop there. How in the world do you keep spewing this ridiculousness? 

There's absolutely nothing you've said that couldn't apply to ANY large company out there, BEFORE a scandal broke. Nothing. All you are saying is that the signed confession doesn't exist. And you are 100%correct on that...


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Doesn't the NBA have it set up so they don't have to disclose front office tax returns?

As for stern not doing things for increased league revenue..



> Wondering why all the Celtics-Lakers games for the Finals are scheduled for a 9:07 p.m. tip off?
> 
> NBA commissioner David Stern addressed the late starts on the East Coast in a Q&A session with sports radio WEEI's Dennis and Callahan this morning, arguing that the starts were that late in order to get more people to tune in nationwide.
> 
> ...


link


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

So... kflo you're saying that as the league does better and increases revenue, Stern maintains the same salary? That doesn't make any sense at all.



> (David Stern) has a yearly salary of $3.5 million that exceeds the combined annual salaries of the three other major pro sports commissioners.


That was from *1990* (Gee... I wonder what happened right before the 90's that gave him such a huge salary?) I'm sure it's bigger than that today.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

It always seemed odd to me that if the league was rigging games, why would the officiating seem to favor san antonio instead of phoenix in the playoffs? Wouldnt Phoenix, generally regarded as one of the most exciting teams in the league, get better ratings than San Antonio, one of the most boring teams in the league, in the finals?


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

*FBI Concludes Donaghy told the Truth*



> Is the FBI investigating Donaghy's allegations? Will others be charged with crimes?
> 
> The FBI already has investigated the allegations. Donaghy first met with FBI agents in July 2007. A team of agents has been probing his stories ever since. As the result of their investigations, federal prosecutors have filed what is known as a 5(k) letter. The 5(k) letter means the agents have checked on the stories and have concluded Donaghy was truthful. The 5(k) letter does not apply to the 2002 Western Conference finals Game 6 because the statute of limitations had expired. More than five years went by before Donaghy described that game to any agents. There was no reason to look into that game because no one could be charged with a crime. The 5(k) letter does apply to statements Donaghy made to agents regarding the three games in 2005. The information could result in a reduction of Donaghy's prison sentence when Amon sentences him July 14. He faces a maximum of 33 months in prison under federal guidelines.
> 
> Although the FBI has concluded Donaghy was truthful, it does not mean others will be charged with crimes. Agents and prosecutors easily could have concluded that the rigging of the four games was reprehensible but did not qualify as a federal crime. There was no indication of gambling or money laundering or racketeering on the part of the NBA in Donaghy's allegations. If the NBA wants to extend a series to a seventh game, it might be fraud upon the fans, but it is not a federal crime.



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=3439659


Not sure if this has been posted.


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Lemme guess, the FBI only concluded Donaghy was being truthful because the FBI is a ... convicted felon... with a big economic windfall to gain.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Are the 3 games they are referring to just the Rockets/Mavs games or were there other games?


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

But but.. where's the ACTUAL evidence!?


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



essbee said:


> Lemme guess, the FBI only concluded Donaghy was being truthful because the FBI is a ... convicted felon... with a big economic windfall to gain.


The FBI has no reason to conclude that Donaghy is making all this up, the FBI is run by salaried employees!!!

NO EVIDENCE,JUST SALARIED EMPLOYEES, FOLKS!!!!!!


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Jonathan Watters said:


> The FBI has no reason to conclude that Donaghy is making all this up, the FBI is run by salaried employees!!!
> 
> NO EVIDENCE,JUST SALARIED EMPLOYEES, FOLKS!!!!!!


The FBI is lying unless they can show me a video with signed rain checks for those games they agree were fixed, being held up by the accused refs with David Stern's gramma in the background and three of Bavetta's closest friends eating pretzels.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



KDOS said:


> *FBI Concludes Donaghy told the Truth*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, just for the record...

our friend claims Stern has no motivation to see the league make money because he doesn't make more money when the league does well...even though he has no idea how Stern is compensated. 

And now he claims Stern would never risk committing a "felony" even though he has no idea whether or not fixing a game would actually be a felony, as if it could be proven as fixed from a series of 50/50 calls in the first place.

Oh yeah, and the no evidence part. No Evidence. 

No evidence. 

(no evidence)


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## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



Pimped Out said:


> It always seemed odd to me that if the league was rigging games, why would the officiating seem to favor san antonio instead of phoenix in the playoffs? Wouldnt Phoenix, generally regarded as one of the most exciting teams in the league, get better ratings than San Antonio, one of the most boring teams in the league, in the finals?


The state of Texas has almost 1/10th of the population of the United States. If even a tenth of that is interested in watching them, much less a 3rd of the state, which is what the NBA would hope for, that is still a massive amount of people. Obviously this didn't reflect in the ratings of the Finals they played in, but you can see where a bean-counter type might it see it that way. You can also surmise that there might be a reason to believe that non-market people will tune in, just to root against them, based on their reputation across the league.

On the other hand, the whole state of Arizona has 5 million people.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

*Prosecution Plays Down Cooperation of Donaghy *



> “A lot of it was unsubstantiated, and that’s important,” Jeffrey Goldberg, the assistant United States attorney leading the prosecution, said in court. “So we’ve never taken the position that Mr. Donaghy has lied to us. But there is a difference between telling the truth and believing you’re telling the truth and finding out later that a number of the allegations don’t hold any water.”





> In denying Lauro’s request to present Scala to the court, Amon seemed to rebuke Lauro for claiming that the United States Attorney’s Office for the Eastern District of New York deliberately sought to diminish the extent of Donaghy’s help. She explained that just because he provided information, it was not necessarily information that the prosecutors “felt they could proceed on.”
> 
> “It just seems to me that what we’re exploring here is a sort of fishing expedition,” she said. “I think it’s taking the case pretty far afield.”
> 
> ...


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/10/sports/basketball/10donaghy.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



> “So we’ve never taken the position that Mr. Donaghy has lied to us. But there is a difference between telling the truth and believing you’re telling the truth and finding out later that a number of the allegations don’t hold any water.”


I believe I said this very same thing and people just overlooked it, like there was no way this could be the case.


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## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,381842,00.html



> *Disgraced NBA Referee's Phone Calls to Second Ref Raise Questions*
> 
> 
> *EXCLUSIVE: NEW YORK — NBA referee Tim Donaghy made repeated phone calls to a second referee at the same time he provided inside information to professional gamblers during the course of the 2006-2007 season, according to court documents and phone records obtained by FOXNews.com.*
> ...





> Calls between Foster, 41, and Donaghy, also 41, took place immediately before and after 54 of the 57 games Donaghy officiated from the beginning of the 2006-2007 season until mid-March, when his role in the gambling operation apparently ended. Records also show a vast majority of the calls came in the hours before or after games officiated by Donaghy or Foster.
> 
> Donaghy’s phone records for one of those days, Dec. 30, obtained by Fox News, reveal the following:
> 
> ...


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## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

And don't miss this video:

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3484915


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



carrrnuttt said:


> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,381842,00.html


Wow. :nonono:


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

there are 2 separate questions. one is whether there were refs fixing/intentionally influencing the outcome of games. the other is whether the league was in on it. we know that donaghy was not in cahoots with the league.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



carrrnuttt said:


> On the other hand, the whole state of Arizona has 5 million people.


6.2 million JERK and we're ALL Suns fans!


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

So who was Dick Bavetta bringing cookies to!? My(obvious) guess is Phil Jackson.


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## Dream Hakeem (Apr 20, 2006)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*



carrrnuttt said:


> And don't miss this video:
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3484915


thanks for the video

Raises some questions of the relationships they have.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

SMH. Who else was reffin' dirty?


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

Foster and Bavetta both did many playoff games, and the NBA Finals. Not saying Foster is guilty of anything, but as shown with Bavetta, one of the league's worst officials, they seriously have no idea what is going on. At least they are bringing in an Army General with zero basketball experience. That should help.


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

*Re: The Emperor is Butt Naked and Dancing in the Streets of New York (Tim Donaghy Tal*

The Summer League isn't fixed right?


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