# Are you happy with how the draft panned out for the Bulls?



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Simple question. Happy or not happy? Why?


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## taco_daddy (Jun 13, 2004)

Sure


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

anytime you get a pt guard with the talent of Rose, yeah gotta be happy. 

I love his attitude. Wants to be MVP.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Would have graded this draft a perfect A+ if we got Chris Douglas Roberts or Bill Walker in the second round but you could not screw this draft up so I give it an A.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Nope. We passed on Michael Beasley and Bill Walker.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

BG7 Lavigne said:


> Nope. We passed on Michael Beasley and Bill Walker.


How the heck did Bill Walker drop so far? 

The Kid has great potential, solid talent and had great workouts... I guess his injuries are a great concern.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

I wanted Beasley #1.

2nd rd targets:
Richard Hendrix
DeVon Hardin
Malik Hairston
Shan Foster

CDR would not have been a bad value pick here as well.

We end up with Rose and Asik.

I'm not super enthusiastic, nor am I upset. Call me luke warm. I always said I would probably be a bigger fan of Rose than I would be of Beasley, so I am happy from that standpoint (unless they decide Kirk is the one to ship out). I just thought Beasley was the correct pick to make. Here is to now hoping I am wrong.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

Yep, I'm happy it's over.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

Rose #1? yep.
Asik -- wanted him all along 




j/k
I'm more than happy. But I'm praying that the Bulls will rationalize this roster even a little bit. We need some shooting. We need some pick and roll type players who can shoot. 

But I can't ask for a better foundation piece than Rose.


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## Case (Dec 17, 2007)

More excited than I would have been if we had taken Beasley.


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## Cager (Jun 13, 2002)

Rose is perfect for the Bulls. The next major item is to have the courage to act as if Hughes does not exist. His only purpose should be cap relief 2 years from now or as a trade piece next year. Just because he makes too much doesn't mean he should play. Trade Hinrich but don't do it because you can't trade Hughes. Trade Hinrich for talent not cap relief.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Very happy. Rose was my guy -- we have a talented team that didn't play up to potential last year. Rose is a guy who makes everyone around him better. We are already a young, young team, so we don't really have a slot to take an immediate flyer on a second round project. Good to grab a big body and keep him over in Europe for a for seasons to develop.

Worked with Dragan Tarlac, right? :uhoh:

Kidding.

Yeah, I'm happy.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Very happy. Rose was my guy -- we have a talented team that didn't play up to potential last year. Rose is a guy who makes everyone around him better. We are already a young, young team, so we don't really have a slot to take an immediate flyer on a second round project. Good to grab a big body and keep him over in Europe for a for seasons to develop.
> 
> Worked with Dragan Tarlac, right? :uhoh:
> 
> ...


nice to see you post here :biggrin:


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

What really cooled me off on Beasley was this whole Miami Heat not sure if they wanted to draft him. Heck even when they did Draft him Pat Riley did not look or sound too excited or happy that Beasley was just drafted. I think Miami knows that they are going to get a fantastic scorer but thats probably about it.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> What really cooled me off on Beasley was this whole Miami Heat not sure if they wanted to draft him. Heck even when they did Draft him Pat Riley did not look or sound too excited or happy that Beasley was just drafted. I think Miami knows that they are going to get a fantastic scorer but thats probably about it.


It's funny, I had this image in my head about how Riley would look in the interview after drafting Beasley, and it was totally how I expected. He looked very unenthusiastic, like he'd been working the phones for the past month only to have nothing substantiate.

I really don't get why though, they have Wade, I would think they'd want to keep Marion, and then add Beasley. That's about AS GOOD of a scoring three-some that you can put together on one team in today's NBA. I understand they want a PG to control the tempo and all, but who cares. I'd be happy if I were a Heat fan right now.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

yodurk said:


> It's funny, I had this image in my head about how Riley would look in the interview after drafting Beasley, and it was totally how I expected. He looked very unenthusiastic, like he'd been working the phones for the past month only to have nothing substantiate.
> 
> I really don't get why though, they have Wade, I would think they'd want to keep Marion, and then add Beasley. That's about AS GOOD of a scoring three-some that you can put together on one team in today's NBA. I understand they want a PG to control the tempo and all, but who cares. I'd be happy if I were a Heat fan right now.


If I'm a Heat fan I WANT TO KNOW why is Riles so damn dissapointed in drafting Beasley! 

What did he not like about him that he would even consider taking Mayo or even Bayless over him?

Is there a flaw in his game that Riley spotted in workouts?

Maybe he just doesnt like the Idea of having 2 small forwards in his starting lineup, 6'8 Beasley and 6'7 Marion.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> What really cooled me off on Beasley was this whole Miami Heat not sure if they wanted to draft him. Heck even when they did Draft him Pat Riley did not look or sound too excited or happy that Beasley was just drafted. I think Miami knows that they are going to get a fantastic scorer but thats probably about it.


Have you heard all the stuff coming out of Miami? To sum it up, "Riley: Nah, nah, nah, nah, we somehow got Michael Beasley without the top pick in the draft, nah, nah, nah, nah!"


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## BeZerker2008 (Jun 29, 2006)

I'm happy about draft night, but I'll wait to see at the start of the season to see what our roster is to see if I'll be completely happy. I'm hoping for change but hearing about that moves might not be done this off season has made me feel uneasy.


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## Nu_Omega (Nov 27, 2006)

I'm 50-50. Drafting Rose was the obvious choice but i was hoping Pax would get a low post banger and foul absorber like Richard Hendrix in the second round and not some Turkish lad but i hope he will prove me wrong though.

Go bulls!


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## RageofDaBulls (Feb 2, 2007)

im not Happy..yeah we got Rose,and that made me very happy but Pax didn't do anything else to fix this roster last night.what we saw last year was just a %^&(^&* disgrace and yet Pax is still singing the same old tune of "take it slow,be safe"instead of kicking KH and BG's *** out the door the first chance he gets.

KH should have been sent to Por for that #13/Rush or at the very least CDR should have been taken in the 2nd rd to start to rebuild the one and two spots.i even heard one guy say that he thought we didn't take CDR because it may have kept Rose in that "Freshman" state of mind.i say if thats the case then you shouldn't have taken Rose at all,because i don't want a "LEADER" that "FOLLOWS" someone else lead(hey that kinda sounds like Pax huh?)

we got handed the #1 and we have TO MANY PIECES on this team,that should = a major draft day trade and Pax should have made this draft the bulls,yet as always he sits around on his thumbs waiting on someone else to lead him to where he should go(in this case BG/DENG).


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

RageofDaBulls said:


> im not Happy..yeah we got Rose,and that made me very happy but Pax didn't do anything else to fix this roster last night.what we saw last year was just a %^&(^&* disgrace and yet Pax is still singing the same old tune of "take it slow,be safe"instead of kicking KH and BG's *** out the door the first chance he gets.
> 
> KH should have been sent to Por for that #13/Rush or at the very least CDR should have been taken in the 2nd rd to start to rebuild the one and two spots.i even heard one guy say that he thought we didn't take CDR because it may have kept Rose in that "Freshman" state of mind.i say if thats the case then you shouldn't have taken Rose at all,because i don't want a "LEADER" that "FOLLOWS" someone else lead(hey that kinda sounds like Pax huh?)
> 
> we got handed the #1 and we have TO MANY PIECES on this team,that should = a major draft day trade and Pax should have made this draft the bulls,yet as always he sits around on his thumbs waiting on someone else to lead him to where he should go(in this case BG/DENG).


You really need to know what you're talking about before you rant like that. I agree we should've had some balls in the draft, but July 1st is really the first day that we will be able to make trades due to contracts restricting trades now. Hinrich's contract is too hard to trade now, and in less than a week that'll change. That's also when Deng and Gordon can (hopefully WILL) be traded. So I fully expect a lot of changes to come in the next few weeks or month. I didn't expect much, if any, on draft day.

As for how happy I am, I'd rate my happiness level an 8 or so. Ecstatic we got Rose instead of Beasley. I think we should've been like Portland moving around, buying picks, etc. Arthur, Jordan, DRC, Walker, etc were all there for the taking, and instead we give up a bunch of picks to get some euro-trash stiff that will likely (99% chance IMO) never amount to anything for us. 

Now, if we trade Gordon, Noc, Deng, Gooden, etc for some good players (Josh Smith, Joe Alexander, Amare Stoudemire, Emeka Okafor, etc) and don't ship off Tyrus, Thabo and Hinrich, it'll be a big success to me. The draft was just the beginning, and there will be a domino effect in the next week or so most likely.


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## Case (Dec 17, 2007)

RageofDaBulls said:


> im not Happy..yeah we got Rose,and that made me very happy but Pax didn't do anything else to fix this roster last night.what we saw last year was just a %^&(^&* disgrace and yet Pax is still singing the same old tune of "take it slow,be safe"instead of kicking KH and BG's *** out the door the first chance he gets.
> 
> KH should have been sent to Por for that #13/Rush or at the very least CDR should have been taken in the 2nd rd to start to rebuild the one and two spots.i even heard one guy say that he thought we didn't take CDR because it may have kept Rose in that "Freshman" state of mind.i say if thats the case then you shouldn't have taken Rose at all,because i don't want a "LEADER" that "FOLLOWS" someone else lead(hey that kinda sounds like Pax huh?)
> 
> we got handed the #1 and we have TO MANY PIECES on this team,that should = a major draft day trade and Pax should have made this draft the bulls,yet as always he sits around on his thumbs waiting on someone else to lead him to where he should go(in this case BG/DENG).


And just in case you missed it in the post above: *July 1 is the first day that guys like Hinrich and Nocioni can be traded*. Sure, they can be traded before that, but with BYC status disappearing on July 1, it becomes much easier to do so.

This has been stated ad nauseum on this board, but still we see impatient Chicago fans whining about no trades on draft night.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Case said:


> And just in case you missed it in the post above: *July 1 is the first day that guys like Hinrich and Nocioni can be traded*. Sure, they can be traded before that, but with BYC status disappearing on July 1, it becomes much easier to do so.
> 
> This has been stated ad nauseum on this board, but still we see impatient Chicago fans whining about no trades on draft night.


I was reading an article on NBA.com earlier, and I don't recall what player it was, but some player (on a different team) wasn't tradeable before July 7th. I heard July 1st for our guys though, so idk what the deal is there. So I expect July 7th to be when trades really start getting talked about, as apparently some guys can't really be traded till then, plus July 1st is when Pax said contract discussions with Deng and Gordon will start. Knowing the snails' pace that Pax does things, it might be August before anything happens, if it ever does lol. :lol:


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Now, if we trade Gordon, Noc, Deng, Gooden, etc for some good players (Josh Smith, Joe Alexander, Amare Stoudemire, Emeka Okafor, etc) and don't ship off Tyrus, Thabo and Hinrich, it'll be a big success to me. The draft was just the beginning, and there will be a domino effect in the next week or so most likely.


Good thing you aren't the GM. Gordon, Ok. Noc, fine. But Not Deng. Forget it. You are willing to just blow up the team, because they underperformed?

I'm not. Some pieces have to be shipped out, but not HALF the team. And not for players who have never won anything (like Josh smith, ALexander and Okafor)


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

No trades until July 7th. What will happen is that trades can be agreed to, but the NBA has a one week player movement moratorium (used to be 2 weeks), where there can be no player movement (maybe a team can cut a guy...I'm not sure)...but no trades or signings (other than rookie contracts I believe). So the teams will agree to a trade in that period, and than it will become official on July 7th (just like teams agreeing to sign a guy, and then it going through on July 7th).


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Starting at th 11th pick my friends and I started calling the draft picks. I got about 80% right so I'm happy


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

RageofDaBulls said:


> im not Happy..yeah we got Rose,and that made me very happy but Pax didn't do anything else to fix this roster last night.what we saw last year was just a %^&(^&* disgrace and yet Pax is still singing the same old tune of "take it slow,be safe"instead of kicking KH and BG's *** out the door the first chance he gets.
> 
> KH should have been sent to Por for that #13/Rush or at the very least CDR should have been taken in the 2nd rd to start to rebuild the one and two spots.i even heard one guy say that he thought we didn't take CDR because it may have kept Rose in that "Freshman" state of mind.i say if thats the case then you shouldn't have taken Rose at all,because i don't want a "LEADER" that "FOLLOWS" someone else lead(hey that kinda sounds like Pax huh?)
> 
> we got handed the #1 and we have TO MANY PIECES on this team,that should = a major draft day trade and Pax should have made this draft the bulls,yet as always he sits around on his thumbs waiting on someone else to lead him to where he should go(in this case BG/DENG).


:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


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## fuzznuts (May 23, 2006)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Now, if we trade Gordon, Noc, Deng, Gooden, etc for some good players (Josh Smith, Joe Alexander, Amare Stoudemire, Emeka Okafor, etc) and don't ship off Tyrus, Thabo and Hinrich, it'll be a big success to me.



Ive been a huge fan of Joe Alexander


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

The Krakken said:


> Good thing you aren't the GM. Gordon, Ok. Noc, fine. But Not Deng. Forget it. You are willing to just blow up the team, because they underperformed?
> 
> I'm not. Some pieces have to be shipped out, but not HALF the team. And not for players who have never won anything (like Josh smith, ALexander and Okafor)


Deng is an overrated sissy. Simple as that. He has no handle, he's slow, he doesn't take it hard to the basket, never finishes at the rim (since his rookie year when sissy-itis set in), and is weak-minded. I'd definitely take Smith and Alexander over him any day. At least they have some balls and *play hard*, as well as being elite athletes. *What the hell has Deng won that Okafor hasn't??????*

And yes, I would get rid of the guys that I don't see as ever being anything special, or that have serious flaws. Gordon flat out sucks at everything but scoring, and he's too streaky at that for it to compensate for his other deficiencies. Noc is called the matador for a reason, and he's also a chucker. Noah's value in a trade is higher than his value to the team IMO, but we'd have to get a starting quality C back in return before he can go. He'll never be anything other than an average role player who is a liability on O, and a distraction due to him being a pothead/freak nutcase. Gooden is an average player and will likely not be resigned so get something out of him rather than let him expire like PJ. Deng, already said my piece on him. The rest, Du, Gray, etc, aren't even worth trading as their value is about zero and I don't think Du is even under contract right now. 

Hinrich is versatile as he can play both the 1 and 2, and a good defender, so I'd keep him. 

Thabs has the ability to play point forward, be an elite wing defender and great transition ability. That's a rare combination, so I'd keep him.

Tyrus, elite shot blocking and transition scorer...especially with Rose.

That leaves you set at PG, SG, and PF. Trading Deng, etc for a SF like Smith or Alexander, and Noah etc for a C and you'd have a better team long-term. May as well do the Trailblazer model, where you get young elite prospects and let them grow together. 


And finally, yes I'd blow up the team. They looked horrible, with no heart, under TWO coaches. I blame Deng and Gordon for being greedy little *******s too. There are only 3 players on the team, along with Rose, that I would actually care to keep. There are some, like Deng, that I wouldn't be mad if we kept, but I'd still like to see them replaced by better players, or at least guys with the potential to be elite, rather than average Deng. Gordon, I want to leave ASAP. Sick of him.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

fuzznuts said:


> Ive been a huge fan of Joe Alexander


Me too. Don't you think he'll be better than Luol Deng? He is a vastly superior athlete, and can actually post up and really play the 4 even if he had to. Combine that with him working 10 times as hard and going all out, I don't see any way that he isn't better when it's all said and done.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

How can you constantly bash Gordon/Deng, the two guys most responsible (followed by Kirk and Noc) for this team making the playoffs post Jordan.

What has Tyrus done? How is he an elite shotblocker or transition scorer? The guy has to start running down the court before he can even score in transition.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

I am not sure why someone objects blown up this team now ?!

I thought that it was Pax’s full intention after embarrassing 2008 season. 

Does presence of Rose changes the fact that Deng, Ben, Kirk, Larry are just a ballast that should be moved or exchanged for a better player ? … keep in mind we need at least one more talent like Rose and I highly doubt (or don't want to think) that we will have a high draft in the nearest future. 

I am sure Deng or Ben, will improve their individual statistics while playing with Rose and we will end up raising their values at the end of the next season. And that fact will not help us to resign a reasonable contracts, that they are truly deserved or holding other teams not to overpay their values. So we probably will loose them for nothing.

IMO, Pax needs to sign a reasonable contracts with Ben and Deng (around $7M max) NOW and trade them later, together with Kirk for an elite SF or a good talented prospect.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

Bulls96 said:


> I am not sure why someone objects blown up this team now ?!
> 
> I thought that it was Pax’s full intention after embarrassing 2008 season.
> 
> ...


If they play better with Rose, score more points and the team wins, then maybe they are better, too?

Last year was a bad year. Skiles went off the deep end. He doesn't know how to relate to players, how to build them up, how to help them grow. He never designed anything for Deng, offensively. These guys felt stifled. Even if they had the potential for leadership, it was never developed because Skiles was so overbearing. 

I'm not going to blame them if they smell the new freedom they are going to have under VDN and with Rose, and elevate their games to where they were before and higher.

I think Pax chose Rose precisely because he does believe in these guys, as well as in Tyrus, Noah and Thabo. And, I would guess that VDN believes in 'em, too. 

The more I've listened to Pax, the more I'm convinced that Pax thinks that the team needed a readjustment. 

He got a new coach who is creative, personable and focused on helping the team grow, taking advantage of the player's strengths instead of imposing systems on players willy-nilly -- and he got a player who has the ability and potential to be the best player on the floor AND the leader of the team. 

With that change in dynamic, he's willing to wait and see how the other players he already has respond. I'm not ruling out moves, because obviously Nocioni, Gooden, Hughes and either Hinrich or Gordon could go to bring in a star. Hughes should go -- but where? But my point is that Paxson is doing a controlled experiment, changing a few variables only. 

I would argue that Rose allows you to rebuild your roster along rational lines -- demands it, perhaps. But that requires wholesale changes that Pax doesn't like making. It is, as they have been saying lately, a process. 

At least VDN has got "pre-conceived" down right. He learns from his mistakes. Good for him!


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> I am not sure why someone objects blown up this team now ?!



3 straight playoff appearances versus one "embarassing"(your words) season. a league leading defense during those 3 years, a number of good role players, AND the number one pick in the draft in 08. by this ideal, every team that has a losing record should blow up their team ASAP, and start over each year it happens. this isn't nbalive 07.



> I thought that it was Pax’s full intention after embarrassing 2008 season.


you thought wrong; he acknowledged the coach as a major impedence to the players progress, and cut ties; he found another coach with an ideaology they shared; he now is trying to assess which players give him the best chance to move furthest the fastest. further, IF these players "suck", who's going to give up better players for them?

i suppose if for some reason, the team falls short of .500 (i don't expect that) he should "blow it up" again.



> Deng is an overrated sissy. Simple as that. He has no handle, he's slow, he doesn't take it hard to the basket, never finishes at the rim (since his rookie year when sissy-itis set in), and is weak-minded. I'd definitely take Smith and Alexander over him any day. At least they have some balls and play hard, as well as being elite athletes. What the hell has Deng won that Okafor hasn't??????
> 
> And yes, I would get rid of the guys that I don't see as ever being anything special, or that have serious flaws. Gordon flat out sucks at everything but scoring, and he's too streaky at that for it to compensate for his other deficiencies. Noc is called the matador for a reason, and he's also a chucker. Noah's value in a trade is higher than his value to the team IMO, but we'd have to get a starting quality C back in return before he can go. He'll never be anything other than an average role player who is a liability on O, and a distraction due to him being a pothead/freak nutcase. Gooden is an average player and will likely not be resigned so get something out of him rather than let him expire like PJ. Deng, already said my piece on him. The rest, Du, Gray, etc, aren't even worth trading as their value is about zero and I don't think Du is even under contract right now.


i'm continuously amused at the humor and nonsensical and childish slant of your posts. i bet you're a real azz-kicker at playstation....


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Deng is an overrated sissy. Simple as that. He has no handle, he's slow, he doesn't take it hard to the basket, never finishes at the rim (since his rookie year when sissy-itis set in), and is weak-minded. I'd definitely take Smith and Alexander over him any day. At least they have some balls and *play hard*, as well as being elite athletes. *What the hell has Deng won that Okafor hasn't??????*


The first few lines of this section is unmitigated opinion (and ill-formed I might add). But to answer your question: A playoff game. A playoff series.



> And yes, I would get rid of the guys that I don't see as ever being anything special, or that have serious flaws.


That's everyone on the team. And by that logic you'd have to get rid of superstars on other teams too.



> Gordon flat out sucks at everything but scoring, and he's too streaky at that for it to compensate for his other deficiencies. Noc is called the matador for a reason, and he's also a chucker. Noah's value in a trade is higher than his value to the team IMO, but we'd have to get a starting quality C back in return before he can go. He'll never be anything other than an average role player who is a liability on O, and a distraction due to him being a pothead/freak nutcase. Gooden is an average player and will likely not be resigned so get something out of him rather than let him expire like PJ. Deng, already said my piece on him. The rest, Du, Gray, etc, aren't even worth trading as their value is about zero and I don't think Du is even under contract right now.
> 
> Hinrich is versatile as he can play both the 1 and 2, and a good defender, so I'd keep him.
> 
> ...


Like I said....good thing you aren't the GM.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Deng is an overrated sissy. Simple as that. He has no handle, he's slow, he doesn't take it hard to the basket, never finishes at the rim (since his rookie year when sissy-itis set in), and is weak-minded.


I dont know if I agree to that extent, but Luol Deng has proved that he is a soft player who may not be a head case but did show lack of focus when contract talks stalled. 

Hes not a superstar but hes not a bust, hes a piece but the problem is he wants to be paid like an Elite player.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

thebizkit69u said:


> I dont know if I agree to that extent, but Luol Deng has proved that he is a soft player who may not be a head case but did show lack of focus when contract talks stalled.
> 
> Hes not a superstar but hes not a bust, hes a piece but the problem is he wants to be paid like an Elite player.


Well, I may have been a bit extreme in my description of him, but it's all true, at least to some extent. I don't think he absolutely sucks and is worthless, a net-negative, and not worth having (like Gordon is when he's not on, which is at least 1/2 the time), but he's not the type of player that I'd want to build around, and prior to Rose, that's what the Bulls were going to do. I hope now, if he's retained, that he's at best a complimentary role player, and not the guy they expect to be the go-to guy, cause he is too mentally weak for that, obviously. Physically, he doesn't have the speed, strength or handle to do it either, and he has no shooting range to stretch the D. The only thing he does exceptionally, is move without the ball, which = role player. A go-to guy can create his own shots, or do something spectacular. That is most certainly not him.

As per my Gordon comment, I love the guy as much as anyone, WHEN HE'S ON. But he has no redeeming quality to make up for when he's off. He sucks on D 100% of the time, and he can't facilitate an offense since he has no handle, so if he isn't making his shot, the rest of the Bulls are compensating for his worthlessness on both ends of the court and he's contributing nothing except fatigue to the rest of the team. (And maybe a lot of offensive rebounds for our post guys)


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

I AM ECSTATIC to how it turned out for the Bulls.

They took Rose, and we got Beasley!


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

ChrisRichards said:


> I AM ECSTATIC to how it turned out for the Bulls.
> 
> They took Rose, and we got Beasley!


I read your other thread and frankly I dont care.

WE wanted Rose from day one, so it seems like everyone got what they wanted but I do wonder why Pax and company where all clapping and smilling when they drafted Rose while Riley looked like he was going to cry like a girl when he took Beasley #2.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Well, I may have been a bit extreme in my description of him, but it's all true, at least to some extent. I don't think he absolutely sucks and is worthless, a net-negative, and not worth having (like Gordon is when he's not on, which is at least 1/2 the time), but he's not the type of player that I'd want to build around, and prior to Rose, that's what the Bulls were going to do. I hope now, if he's retained, that he's at best a complimentary role player, and not the guy they expect to be the go-to guy, cause he is too mentally weak for that, obviously. Physically, he doesn't have the speed, strength or handle to do it either, and he has no shooting range to stretch the D. The only thing he does exceptionally, is move without the ball, which = role player. A go-to guy can create his own shots, or do something spectacular. That is most certainly not him.


I agree, the biggest problem is going to be the money. This is why we cant keep Hinrich and this is why we cant sign Deng to a lot of money, you just dont give role players near star money, it hurts the team in the long run. I like Deng but I would not give him 12 million a year. 



> As per my Gordon comment, I love the guy as much as anyone, WHEN HE'S ON. But he has no redeeming quality to make up for when he's off. He sucks on D 100% of the time, and he can't facilitate an offense since he has no handle, so if he isn't making his shot, the rest of the Bulls are compensating for his worthlessness on both ends of the court and he's contributing nothing except fatigue to the rest of the team. (And maybe a lot of offensive rebounds for our post guys)


Same can kinda be said about Thabo also, When Thabo can hit his shot at least at a 44% clip hes very valuable because he does play ok defense, but when hes not on Thabo doesnt even get guarded which results in other players getting doubled and the opposing teams help defense is ramped up, atleast with Gordon hes is allways guarded even when hes off. Gordon is very valuable as your sixth man but again Money plays a big part in whether we keep him or not.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

Very disappointed in giving up THREE 2nd round picks (including the one from the Knicks next year, which should be a good one) to move up 3 slots in the 2nd round. 

By comparison, we only gave up one 2nd rounder and cash in 2006 to move up 3 spots into the lottery and select Thabo. The difference between moving up three slots into the LOTTERY and moving up three slots in the 2nd round should be significant, and a team shouldn't have to give up more in the latter case.

I firmly believe the reason we had to give up so many 2nd round picks for Asik is because Reinsdorf didn't want to pony up the cash for a 2nd round pick. Which pisses me off.

But anyways, Pax and Hollinger from ESPN both believe that this kid Asik is a lottery talent, so if he turns out to be that good then obviously we got a steal. 

Love the Derrick Rose pick.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I remember people saying the same thing about Maciej Lampe.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

Good Hope said:


> If they play better with Rose, score more points and the team wins, then maybe they are better, too?
> 
> Last year was a bad year. Skiles went off the deep end. He doesn't know how to relate to players, how to build them up, how to help them grow. He never designed anything for Deng, offensively. These guys felt stifled. Even if they had the potential for leadership, it was never developed because Skiles was so overbearing.
> 
> ...


//…Last year was a bad year //

This is exactly when the league began look on them seriously... and Bulls collapsed and got what they deserved, as a bunch of role players.

//…I think Pax chose Rose precisely because he does believe in these guys //

Pox believes in Jerry R orders... period! It is so easy to say that I believe in Deng, Kirk, and Ben and do nothing, plus that justifies his own stupid selections (probably with exception of Kirk) 

//The more I've listened to Pax, the more I'm convinced that Pax thinks that the team needed a readjustment. //

This is exactly why he speaks publicly 

// He got a new coach…. //

The more importantly for the cheap price...that is all he cares about. Wait for the next Christmas or one after the next.

//With that changes in dynamic, he's willing to wait…//

No my friend, you got him wrong. HE LIKES TO WAIT AND DO NOTHING SPECTACULAR !


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

Bulls96 said:


> //…Last year was a bad year //
> 
> This is exactly when the league began look on them seriously... and Bulls collapsed and got what they deserved, as a bunch of role players.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the fact that you took time to respond to my post. 

But I get the feeling that as much as you look down on me for listening carefully to Pax to figure out what he's really trying to say, you display a lack of interest in understanding the point of my post, which was made in response to your statements that the players would "artificially" benefit from playing with Rose. 

If the players play better with Rose, that's a good thing, and its quite likely its no more artificial than when players play better under good coaches. Good coaches know how to use players in a way that maximizes their strengths. Good coaches know how to develop players so as to minimize their weaknesses. 

Rose'll be a coach on the floor. In time, he'll have the understanding of the players and VDN to put them in positions to succeed. And when given that, they've shown in the past that they can at a pretty high level. 

I think that if we didn't get the #1 pick and Rose, the direction would be much different, and more people would be sure to be headed out the door. But getting Rose gives Pax the luxury of seeing these guys with a renewed hope. He'll make some moves, I bet. But for the most part, he'll take his time. And if they perform better, all the better for him and the org, as it gives them freedom to keep or move them according to the long term plan, and not from a position of weakness but a position of strength. 

I'm glad you have the confidence in your ability to evaluate players and situations to have decided what these guys can and can't do. (Edit: At this point, we'll just have to agree to disagree. You see the failure last year as the players being "exposed." I see the failure as a result of the limitations of Skiles' system - a system which succeeded as long as people adhered to it, but given Skiles' overbearing nature, ultimately stifled creativity and left players feeling exposed once the system was figured out by the opposing teams.)

But given your evident unwillingness to evaluate objectively what people are saying and the arguments they are making, I'm also glad you're not the GM.


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## Bullsky (Jun 11, 2006)

I'm happy. Rose is good and he's going to do well as we move to a faster-paced style of play.

The trade for the Turkish player was a bit of a yawner, but maybe he'll turn out to be a hidden gem like the Spurs have had for years.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

Good Hope said:


> I appreciate the fact that you took time to respond to my post.
> 
> But I get the feeling that as much as you look down on me for listening carefully to Pax to figure out what he's really trying to say, you display a lack of interest in understanding the point of my post, which was made in response to your statements that the players would "artificially" benefit from playing with Rose.
> 
> ...


Thanks Good Hope...you are a good man and I respect your opinion.

//If the players play better with Rose, that's a good thing, and its quite likely its no more artificial than when players play better under good coaches. Good coaches know how to use players in a way that maximizes their strengths. Good coaches know how to develop players so as to minimize their weaknesses.//

I am not arguing with this. I am just trying to say that if Pax will not sign the contracts with Deng and Ben now, at the end of next season they will demand much more because of their improved statistics. Pax will refuse to pay and they will be gone for nothing.

As I said before, IMO, Deng and Ben are 100% solid role players and should be consolidated (perhaps together with Kirk) for a decent prospect or elite SF. Deng, Ben and Kirk will never grow beyond and above what we already have seen. Timing in NBA is too much valuable asset; we can not wait for miracles to happen. 

//I'm also glad you're not the GM//

I know, I am glad too … I hate Jerry R cheapness and micro managerial style eace:


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

DaBabyBullz said:


> [Deng] never finishes at the rim


How many times does this have to be disproved before you stop spreading misinformation?


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

TripleDouble said:


> How many times does this have to be disproved before you stop spreading misinformation?


It has to happen once, and it hasn't happened yet. If Deng grows a set of balls and plays like a man, I won't say it anymore. Till then, or he's traded and becomes irrelevant to me as a result, get used to it.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

DaBabyBullz said:


> It has to happen once, and it hasn't happened yet. If Deng grows a set of balls and plays like a man, I won't say it anymore. Till then, or he's traded and becomes irrelevant to me as a result, get used to it.


You said Deng never finishes at the rim. That is wrong and I proved it a few weeks ago in the post about Josh Smith. Deng is a very good finisher who just happens to be able to finish without throwing down tomahawks all the time. Again, you seem to confuse SC dunking ability with finishing ability.


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## BenDengGo (Feb 1, 2004)

check up the stats.

deng is the better finisher. his fg%, 3p%, ft% are all better than smith's.
smith is probably the better defender due to his superior athleticm and his shot blocking ability, which will probably get him a bigger contract.
but calling ball-less is just stupid and really lacks knowledge of the game.

didnt scottie say "that deng has big balls" ?!


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

TripleDouble said:


> You said Deng never finishes at the rim. That is wrong and I proved it a few weeks ago in the post about Josh Smith. Deng is a very good finisher who just happens to be able to finish without throwing down tomahawks all the time. Again, you seem to confuse SC dunking ability with finishing ability.


Deng CAN finish, I just dont remember ever seeing him dunking or Finishing in traffic. When hes open or on the break he finishes with a smooth layup but I have no faith in him finishing in traffic.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

thebizkit69u said:


> Deng CAN finish, I just dont remember ever seeing him dunking or Finishing in traffic. When hes open or on the break he finishes with a smooth layup but I have no faith in him finishing in traffic.


You're wasting your breath on him. He's not capable of grasping that concept.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

As I have pointed many time...Deng is an officially certified Sissy Boy.

He is mentally weak and locks of courage, who is one of the first on that team, who pushes a panic button. He is generically not capable to make a hard fault or fight for himself or his teammates. This is exactly why he presence himself as a “gentlemen on the court” in order to hide his deficiencies. 

In the mean time, Deng is an intelligent so called role player with a maximum of $7M/year salary. His intelligence is his own enemy number one, that turns on his “self-preservation procedure” before anything else is on line. Unfortunately Ben Gordon is following Deng’s foot steps in that department. 

If someone will establish “Deng Hate Club”, I will be the first who signs up...can not stand losers.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I dont know if I would call Deng a coward, dint this guy escape a war torn country just to live?

Hes not a go to guy, hes not the star of the team and hes never really been the man on any of his teams from High School to College. Hes a solid role player but if your waiting for him to be the next Scottie Pippen forget about it, hes closer to being the next Lamar Odom.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> I dont know if I would call Deng a coward, dint this guy escape a war torn country just to live?
> 
> Hes not a go to guy, hes not the star of the team and hes never really been the man on any of his teams from High School to College. Hes a solid role player but if your waiting for him to be the next Scottie Pippen forget about it, hes closer to being the next Lamar Odom.


I never expected him became a next Scottie Pippen … however I am expecting him to be traded (together with Kirk and Ben) for a classical SF who can drive to the basket with authority and DUNK, score with his back to the basket or create his own shot from the dribble , instead of standing in the corner and waiting for a free passing lane. 

I am not blaming Deng for what he is, I am just saying we can not afford to have a player like Deng on our roster. 

I am willing to live with Thabo or Larry as a SG, but definitely not a Deng as a SF. I value him much less than Olympic Champ – Nocioni.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> I never expected him became a next Scottie Pippen … however I am expecting him to be traded (together with Kirk and Ben) for a classical SF who can drive to the basket with authority and DUNK, score with his back to the basket or create his own shot from the dribble , instead of standing in the corner and waiting for a free passing lane.
> 
> I am not blaming Deng for what he is, I am just saying we can not afford to have a player like Deng on our roster.
> 
> I am willing to live with Thabo or Larry as a SG, but definitely not a Deng as a SF. I value him much less than Olympic Champ – Nocioni.


so dunking is the measure by which you evaluate a player's worth?

and "we cannot afford to have a player like deng on our roster?" what does this mean? it's sounds ridiculous. 17 and 6 (guestimate?) we don't need?

i suspect you will be a disappointed fan should you remain a bulls supporter because deng won't be traded; the olympic champ is more likely to be moved. living with it will be difficult, i'm sure, but i anxiously look forward to more of your humor in your anti-deng campaign when he's called as the starting 3 next year for the bulls.

btw, what does "dint" mean? is it anything like "prolly"?


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

BULLHITTER said:


> so dunking is the measure by which you evaluate a player's worth?
> 
> and "we cannot afford to have a player like deng on our roster?" what does this mean? it's sounds ridiculous. 17 and 6 (guestimate?) we don't need?
> 
> ...



//,,,so dunking is the measure by which you evaluate a player's worth?

I did not say that, you did (read my post again for more details)

//and "we cannot afford to have a player like deng on our roster?" what does this mean? Its sounds ridiculous. 17 and 6 (guestimate?) we don't need?//

Interesting analogy ... Do you know why Pax traded Jalen Rose with 20 and 5 or got rid from Eddy C !?

// i suspect you will be a disappointed fan should you remain a bulls supporter because deng won't be traded… //

Many Bulls fans have been “disappointed” since 1998, but happily lived thru. So, don’t worry my friend .... seeing Deng in the Bulls uniform is much better than follow your logic.

//btw, what does "dint" mean? is it anything like "prolly"?//

Sure, but first please show me where did I write that and explain what does “guestimate” mean, is it anything like Guest Mate ?


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## Bulls2300 (Jun 29, 2008)

Bulls96 said:


> I never expected him became a next Scottie Pippen … however I am expecting him to be traded (together with Kirk and Ben) for a classical SF who can drive to the basket with authority and DUNK, score with his back to the basket or create his own shot from the dribble , instead of standing in the corner and waiting for a free passing lane.
> 
> I am not blaming Deng for what he is, I am just saying we can not afford to have a player like Deng on our roster.
> 
> I am willing to live with Thabo or Larry as a SG, but definitely not a Deng as a SF. I value him much less than Olympic Champ – Nocioni.


I would much rather see Deng start over Nocioni, and I love Noc. I still think Deng can be the player we all thought he would be last year, especially with Rose running the offense. I would rather see us package Gordon (S/T) with another guard and/or pick for Redd.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> Interesting analogy ... Do you know why Pax traded Jalen Rose with 20 and 5 or got rid from Eddy C !?


is english your mother tongue? i'm not sure i can decipher what's up above....:thinking2:....... paxson didn't trade for jalen rose, krause did; if you were on the bandwagon before 1998 you might've known that. nonetheless, are you inferring the bulls should've kept eddy curry? K4E is that you?:rofl2: d'antoni's going to learn the hard way about EC.....i'm predicting this contract he's on might very well be his last. poor conditioning, soft, weak work effort, all cancerous items soon to purge curry from his cushy nba lifestyle......

guestimate.....a best guess or estimate.....to tough for ya, huh?.....

also, if you didn't know what i meant when i posed the question, it might not have applied to you.....theres plenty of fodder in your deng rant;

you said....



> for a classical SF who can drive to the basket with authority and DUNK, score with his back to the basket or create his own shot from the dribble , instead of standing in the corner and waiting for a free passing lane.


like who? carmelo? not available, paul pierce? finals mvp...lebron?.....next question? tayshaun? or just somebody who can DUNK AND FINISH WITH AUTHORITY!!!! woohahh!!! lmaof:basket:.....how many names can you come up with that are ACQUIREABLE that are better than deng? if denver wants him, cool. can't say i'll be holding my breath on that one. also, standing in the corner was also skiles rooty-poot offense; i'm witholding judgment on how VDN's offense will deploy deng. of course, that "classical" SF is just chomping at the bit to come to chicago.....


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

BULLHITTER said:


> is english your mother tongue? i'm not sure i can decipher what's up above....:thinking2:....... paxson didn't trade for jalen rose, krause did; if you were on the bandwagon before 1998 you might've known that. nonetheless, are you inferring the bulls should've kept eddy curry? K4E is that you?:rofl2: d'antoni's going to learn the hard way about EC.....i'm predicting this contract he's on might very well be his last. poor conditioning, soft, weak work effort, all cancerous items soon to purge curry from his cushy nba lifestyle......
> 
> guestimate.....a best guess or estimate.....to tough for ya, huh?.....
> 
> ...


// is english your mother tongue? i'm not sure i can decipher what's up above.... ....... paxson didn't trade for jalen rose, krause did; if you were on the bandwagon before 1998 you might've known that. nonetheless, are you inferring the bulls should've kept eddy curry?//

I am also anxious to know… is English your grandmother tongue or how many years of public education you farther had before he married your mother …I can go on with thousands more questions like that if you want ?! But it will not change the fact that Deng is at maximum 
a role player and I highly doubt that he get better.

Pax traded Jalen to Toronto, back in 2003. The year before Jalen was averaging 22 p and 6a.

I got the feeling that I am wasting by time on you…good bye my friend or should I say Good Bye Deng … please learn how be a Man


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Bulls96 and Bullhitter - both of you guys cut it out please - now.



Back on topic, it seemed like a pretty perfect draft to me. We got the guy I was hoping to get, and we put a talent on layaway. Our roster is overcrowded and in need of consolidation as-is, so it makes sense to gamble on a guy you think might pan out but isn't available right now.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> Back on topic, it seemed like a pretty perfect draft to me. We got the guy I was hoping to get, and we put a talent on layaway. Our roster is overcrowded and in need of consolidation as-is, so it makes sense to gamble on a guy you think might pan out but isn't available right now.


well, back on topic it is......what rational fan wouldn't be happy with the best player in the draft? one who's going to make the starting forward, luol deng up his lifetime avg, set him up for better scores, and feature him in a new pro style offense that has to date limited his upside as it has for so many of the bulls "role players"......why wouldn't i be happy that the bulls josh smith clone, tyrus thomas will finally have a pg who can utilize him for those all important "finishes with authority" around the rim that bulls fans are so impressed with? i'm elated over the fact that with a new coach in the fold, thomas appears be in line to finally get the pt he needs to show he's at least the prospect that the portland trailblazers have at the 4. i'm positively giddy over the fact that the maddeningly average kirk hinrich will be displaced as the "pg" (i use the term loosely) and someone who can get the ball to the bulls heretofore "weak minded role players" can reach their potential. i'm smiling over the role ben gordon's going to have playing off the ball and receiving passes from rose raining jumpers with one man defending him rather than 2 or 3. i'll be anxiously counting the days when the flip-flopping fans change their tunes. i'm also extremely happy the bulls gm and front office don't take any of the fans' opinions seriously, otherwise every year there be a need for pointless threads asking "are we happy"......:dancingpadlock:


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Deng CAN finish, I just dont remember ever seeing him dunking or Finishing in traffic. When hes open or on the break he finishes with a smooth layup but I have no faith in him finishing in traffic.


Deng finishes at an elite percentage. He finishes in traffic. Again, finishing does not exclusively equal dunking.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

How could anyone pick "not happy"? I preferred Beasley. I think the Bulls made a minor mistake in not taking Beasley. But to draft Rose (and what many scouts are calling a second round steal if he comes over) and not be "happy" is hard for me to fathom. 

DJ Augustin was the 9th pick in the draft, which is where we should have been picking. Hell yes I'm "happy" even though Paxson didn't draft the one player I preferred.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Well Ron, I think people are talking about as a whole, as in wasting 3 2nd round picks on a some euro-trash stiff that will probably never play for us....especially when at least one of those 2nds should've been pretty early, and even our own this year was in the 30s so pretty early. That's a lot to give up for one guy who, IMO, has a 1% chance to ever contribute much to the Bulls. Passing up on the option to buy picks like the Blazers, which could've netted us a very solid PF prospect in Darrell Arthur, or a C like DeAndre Jordan is another thing. There's a LOT more to it than just Rose vs Beasley. 

For the record, I chose happy since I wanted Rose, but I'd be ecstatic if the rest of the draft (and 2 future ones) weren't messed as well due to that trade, and we'd went and gotten some guys later on that were definitely worth taking. I do, however, think that the rest of the offseason's moves, which will be greatly impacted by the moves made in the draft, should be considered into how much we like the draft at least to some extent. For example, if we're able to move Hinrich in a great trade, that would make the selection of Rose that much better. Likewise, if we do a Tyson-esque dumping of him for some old scrub that ends up being, in essence, nothing more than a salary dump, that greatly diminishes the selection of Rose.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Well Ron, I think people are talking about as a whole, as *in wasting 3 2nd round picks* on a some *euro-trash stiff* that will probably *never play for us*....especially when at least one of those 2nds should've been pretty early, and even our own this year was in the 30s so pretty early. That's a lot to give up for one guy who, IMO, has *a 1% chance to ever contribute much to the Bulls*.



That's a heapin' helpin' of speculation about a guy that you very likely don't know much about. For example, you called him a "stiff" despite the fact that the 411 on the guy is that he's mobile. Jay Bilas had him ranked pretty highly and both Ford and Hollinger have said he's a first round, even lottery, type of talent who was only in the second round due to his contract to play in Europe. Its a risk pick in the sense that he might not come over, but that is what the second round is for - risks. Especially when you have a roster that is already overcrowded as it is. 



> Passing up on the option to buy picks like the Blazers, which could've netted us a very solid PF prospect in Darrell Arthur, or a C like DeAndre Jordan is another thing. There's a LOT more to it than just Rose vs Beasley.


But to be "unhappy"? No. There is canyon of difference between "not ideal" and "unhappy". 



> For the record, I chose happy since I wanted Rose, but I'd be ecstatic if the rest of the draft (and 2 future ones) weren't messed as well due to that trade, and we'd went and gotten some guys later on that were definitely worth taking. I do, however, think that the rest of the offseason's moves, which will be greatly impacted by the moves made in the draft, should be considered into how much we like the draft at least to some extent. *For example, if we're able to move Hinrich in a great trade, that would make the selection of Rose that much better. Likewise, if we do a Tyson-esque dumping of him for some old scrub that ends up being, in essence, nothing more than a salary dump, that greatly diminishes the selection of Rose.*


The most important thing for the Bulls to do is to consolidate the roster. I don't expect to get much in return when we do that. If we can consolidate multiple players in one deal to get 1 good player, that would be terrific. But I think its more likely to be trading guys like Hinrich and Nocioni in individual salary dumps.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

History has shown that drafting some foreign big doesn't pan out 99% of the time. Most of the time, they don't come over at all, and if they do, most don't make it anyway.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> History has shown that drafting some foreign big doesn't pan out 99% of the time. Most of the time, they don't come over at all, and if they do, most don't make it anyway.


another sweeping generalization that facts can prove as wholly wrong; i suspect your credibility only matters to you, but 99% don't pan out? let's just use a few names to see if they jog your memory

gasol, okur, kirilenko, kristic (pre injury), pachulia (starter on playoff team), turkglou (sp), pavolivic, vujocic (sp).....the list goes on and on. and those were off the top of my head. that doesn't even count other than europe. and i realize they're not ALL bigs, but just making that statment speaks to how disconnected your views are from reality.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

So now a SF (Kirilenko) is a big? Pachulia sucks, big time....starting for a team with absolutely no other options doesn't count as being worthwhile. It just makes him the cream of the crap. Turkoglu plays SF as well. You named off Gasol, Okur and Kristic, who are the ones that came to mind for me. Now go look at the # that never even came over or busted. Go look at the list that someone posted earlier, illustrating the crappy hit rate on foreign bigs, and as I said before, I limited that to BIGS. So no need to try and twist the facts to suit your argument by including SFs.

And also, this was in relation to late picks, not guys like Bargnani, Dirk, and GASOL (who was a 3rd overall pick). Of course the early picks like that will come over and have a decent chance at producing at least some. Kirilenko (24th overall), was again not a big, not a 2nd rounder, plus waited 2 years to come over. Krstic, again, #24 overall, and again, took 2 years to come over and contribute. Turkoglu, #16, and a SF. Pavlovic, SG/SF, 19th overall. Vujacic, #27 overall, SG. Radmonovich #10 overall. So you have, what, Okur, that actually fits the bill as a 2nd round foreign big that has worked out? So....maybe you need to get a clue yourself. Your "facts" aren't really facts are they? I didn't specify 2nd rounders only in my post you quoted, but it was clearly referenced in a previous post, in burning 3 2nds to draft one. It also is clearly implied that you'd expect a 1st rounder to show up, whereas 2nd rounders don't, so don't bother trying to get out of that one.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

DaBabyBullz said:


> History has shown that drafting some foreign big doesn't pan out 99% of the time. Most of the time, they don't come over at all, and if they do, most don't make it anyway.


There are a number of foreign big men who have become solid NBA players. Every player is his own man. The failings of one cannot be attributed to another. It would be like saying drafting the next Sabonis, Kukoc or Nowitzki would be stupid because Dragan Tarlac and Frederic Weiss exist. 

Omer Asik is considered a mid first-round caliber talent who we got in the second round for nothing other than second round picks. Its low risk, high reward. Its precisely what you want your GM to do with a second rounder.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Pachulia sucks, big time....starting for a team with absolutely no other options doesn't count as being worthwhile.


No other options other than American born lottery picks Sheldon Williams and Al Horford. He was the 42nd pick in the draft. He's exceptionally good for a player picked in that range and is a shining testament to the ignorance of your overgeneralizations. Is he a star? Hell no. But if we can get that type of value out of Asik, it will have been an excellent move by Paxson. 



> I didn't specify 2nd rounders only in my post you quoted, but it was clearly referenced in a previous post, in burning 3 2nds to draft one.


Most second rounders don't pan out regardless of where they are from.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

BULLHITTER said:


> another sweeping generalization that facts can prove as wholly wrong; i suspect your credibility only matters to you, but 99% don't pan out? let's just use a few names to see if they jog your memory
> 
> gasol, okur, kirilenko, kristic (pre injury), pachulia (starter on playoff team), turkglou (sp), pavolivic, vujocic (sp).....the list goes on and on. and those were off the top of my head. that doesn't even count other than europe. and i realize they're not ALL bigs, but just making that statment speaks to how disconnected your views are from reality.


I can't help but notice that none of the guys you mentioned are even that good.... :lol:


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

liekomgj4ck said:


> I can't help but notice that none of the guys you mentioned are even that good.... :lol:


Don't let that get in the way of their argument. 

Ronny boy, trading 3 2nds, including 2 that are early 2nds, for one dude that probably will never even come over here and contribute at all is horrible value. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just plain ignorant. Shelden Williams is a worthless POS Dookie, who was a wasted draft pick at #5, and still would've been a waste at #35. Al was a starter, so why mention him? Not to mention the Hawks barely squeaked into the playoffs, in the crappy East, so not much of an accomplishment. Sure they played the Celtics tough, but that wasn't due to Zaza lol. He started a whopping 5 games in the regular season and ZERO in the playoffs btw because he was traded to the Kings for Bibby, so again Bullhitter is talking out his ***. Talk about ignorant....


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Don't let that get in the way of their argument.
> 
> *Ronny boy, trading 3 2nds, including 2 that are early 2nds, for one dude that probably will never even come over here and contribute at all is horrible value.* Anyone who thinks otherwise is just plain ignorant. Shelden Williams is a worthless POS Dookie, who was a wasted draft pick at #5, and still would've been a waste at #35. Al was a starter, so why mention him? Not to mention the Hawks barely squeaked into the playoffs, in the crappy East, so not much of an accomplishment. Sure they played the Celtics tough, but that wasn't due to Zaza lol. He started a whopping 5 games in the regular season and ZERO in the playoffs btw because he was traded to the Kings for Bibby, so again Bullhitter is talking out his ***. Talk about ignorant....


I note that nowhere in that rant do you contest the point that Zaza Pachulia provides excellent value for a 42nd over-all pick. 

As for the bolded part, you do not know if it is "horrible value" unless or until the following happens: (a) he never comes over; or (b) he comes over and sucks while the second round picks traded for him have productive careers that would have meshed well with the Bulls.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> I can't help but notice that none of the guys you mentioned are even that good....


gasol, ak47 (6'9 isn't big.....hmmmm) krstic, turkgolu (6'10) are ALL quality players. player that, were they bulls would ALL be getting significant minutes.

as far as talking out my ***; pot meet kettle. you clearly don't think about what you're posting. all your post show your childish emotional responses without considering what the facts are. grow up and post like you have some actual knowledge. and why did you bring up shelden williams? 



> Anyone who thinks otherwise is just plain ignorant. Shelden Williams is a worthless POS Dookie, who was a wasted draft pick at #5, and still would've been a waste at #35. Al was a starter, so why mention him? Not to mention the Hawks barely squeaked into the playoffs, in the crappy East, so not much of an accomplishment.


what does this have to do with the 99% statment you made? and btw, since you obviously weren't watching, the nba champs were in the eastern conference. never let facts get in the way of a sure opinion......."baby"bullz.....


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Zaza's value is decent, nothing more, nothing less, considering he was a mid 2nd rounder. He was decent in '05-07. Since they got better talent though, he's bene relegated to the bench. Like I said before, easy to be the cream of the crap on the Hawks team that had NO post players till they got Horford. Drafting Horford cut his minutes in half. 

He was also not much value to his first team (Orlando), as they let him go after the first year, as did the team that had him his second year (Milwaukee).


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

DaBabyBullz said:


> History has shown that drafting some foreign big doesn't pan out 99% of the time. Most of the time, they don't come over at all, and if they do, most don't make it anyway.



As confirmed by scores of San Antonio championships.


Err, wait...


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

BULLHITTER said:


> gasol, ak47 (6'9 isn't big.....hmmmm) krstic, turkgolu (6'10) are ALL quality players. player that, were they bulls would ALL be getting significant minutes.
> 
> as far as talking out my ***; pot meet kettle. you clearly don't think about what you're posting. all your post show your childish emotional responses without considering what the facts are. grow up and post like you have some actual knowledge. and why did you bring up shelden williams?
> 
> ...


I already went through that list, one by one. Gasol = early pick. AK is a SF, thus not a big. Height doesn't = big. Position = big. You are REALLY dense. My god.

I brought up Shelden because Ronny boy did in an argument for Zaza. When you have to stoop to bringing up tools like Shelden to support a foreign big, you are reaching all-time lows.

Yeah, the champs may have been from the East, but that sure as hell isn't representative of the overall talent level in the east. It's possible the 2 best teams were in the East, but after that there wasn't much. In the west, there were a lot of good teams, and the last team to get a playoff team in the west would've been at worst the 3rd seed in the east. 

I'm through arguing with you, because pretty soon I'll be getting warnings or bannings if I continue posting against such clueless garbage.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

jnrjr79 said:


> As confirmed by scores of San Antonio championships.
> 
> 
> Err, wait...


2 words: Tim Duncan. Or should that be 4, Tim Duncan & David Robinson? Also, exactly what foreign bigs were so vital to their championships? Parker and Ginobli are definitely smalls. Playing next to one of the best big men in history in Duncan, it doesn't take much. Hell, if you want to bring up stupid comparisons like that, just look at the Bulls, who won 3 championships with foreign stiffs in the post, Longley, Wennington, etc. But we all know they were just space eaters, and we won mainly due to the 2-4 positions, and the various 1s we had playing for us all made bigger impacts than the foreign stiffs we had playing the 5.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Didn't Luis Scola get drafted with the 56th pick, sit overseas, and then just make the All-Rookie First team this last year?


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

DaBabyBullz said:


> 2 words: Tim Duncan. Or should that be 4, Tim Duncan & David Robinson? Also, exactly what foreign bigs were so vital to their championships? Parker and Ginobli are definitely smalls. Playing next to one of the best big men in history in Duncan, it doesn't take much. Hell, if you want to bring up stupid comparisons like that, just look at the Bulls, who won 3 championships with foreign stiffs in the post, Longley, Wennington, etc. But we all know they were just space eaters, and we won mainly due to the 2-4 positions, and the various 1s we had playing for us all made bigger impacts than the foreign stiffs we had playing the 5.


You still seem to be missing the basic point. This is a second round pick we are talking about. Fabricio Oberto wasn't even drafted at all, and he still was able to give San Antoni 20 solid minutes per night last season. No one is saying that he's primarily responsible for that team's overall success. The question is whether or not he would have been good value as a second round pick. And the answer would be an unqualified yes. 

You're going off half-cocked about a "terrible value" trade based on the false premise that foreign bigs acquired in the second round never pan out. It just isn't so. And Omer Asik appears to be at least somewhat unique in that he's widely considered to be a first round talent who fell solely due to his contractual obligations overseas.

I just don't understand the vitriol.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

i'm dense, yet here you are qualifying the stupid statement when several posters have called you on it. further, i don't know what world you live in but 6'9 IS big. his position is irrelevant. stop trying to switch up now that you've been called on a silly statement.

there are plenty of players from europe, big or otherwise that pan out; a much smaller percentage of those who don't. just because no one's clamoring over a scrub like deandre jordan, who's likely not to even play in the league, wasn't on the bulls radar (hooray for pax on that one....) doesn't mean asik won't be a decent, good or quality player. you don't know, stop trying to give the impression you do.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

BULLHITTER said:


> gasol, ak47 (6'9 isn't big.....hmmmm) krstic, turkgolu (6'10) are ALL quality players. player that, were they bulls would ALL be getting significant minutes.


Gasol... is not a quality player , watch the finals

Can only score, no defense, no rebounding, weak, can't finish

ak47... was a quality player, years ago, watch the playoffs fs

ak is only good for a little blocking, we got that in tyrus

Kristic and Turk are good? 

I'd take anyone on the Bulls over them


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Ron Cey said:


> Didn't Luis Scola get drafted with the 56th pick, sit overseas, and then just make the All-Rookie First team this last year?


Did he contribute to the Spurs' championships? No. jnrjr thought he'd make some smart comment about the Spurs' championships being a testament to the value of foreign big men's value. Well, sorry to say, but he was dead wrong there, as the 2 big men responsible for their first 2 were Robinson and Duncan, both #1 overall picks, and the last 2 mainly had Duncan and Horry as the big men. The main foreign contributions were at the 1 and 2. 

And, again, your little example is pure BS. The SPURS drafted Scola, and couldn't get him over here. The ROCKETS are the team that got him as a 27 year old rookie. So if you're talking drafting value, you don't get any worse than that for the Spurs, as they never even had a chance to use him.....unless of course you put that high of value on a future 2nd and the all important (to Reinsdorff and the Suns) "cash considerations". We're talking about draft value here, and that's not good value. Oberto isn't even in this discussion, as he wasn't even drafted.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> Gasol... is not a quality player , watch the finals


i did; however, does it refute the fact that the lakers were the best team in the almight west (lol) and gasol's prescence was a major factor? his numbers suggest different, as did his prescence in all the series *except* the finals.



> Can only score, no defense, no rebounding, weak, can't finish


which of the bulls bigs is better than pau?



> ak47... was a quality player, years ago, watch the playoffs fs
> 
> ak is only good for a little blocking, we got that in tyrus


hasn't he been an all-star? which bulls have?



> Kristic and Turk are good?


kristic's been injured, so i'll give him a mini-pass, prior to that he was better than any of the bulls big. turk was most improved player in the entire nba, LAST YEAR. which bulls won anything?



> I'd take anyone on the Bulls over them


yea, right.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

We drafted Toni Kukoc in the 2nd round, that worked.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

liekomgj4ck said:


> Kristic and Turk are good?
> 
> I'd take anyone on the Bulls over them


Turkoglu averaged 20/6/5 this year.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

DaBabyBullz said:


> And, again, your little example is pure BS. The SPURS drafted Scola, and couldn't get him over here. The ROCKETS are the team that got him as a 27 year old rookie. So if you're talking drafting value, you don't get any worse than that for the Spurs, as they never even had a chance to use him.....unless of course you put that high of value on a future 2nd and the all important (to Reinsdorff and the Suns) "cash considerations". We're talking about draft value here, and that's not good value.


They could have brought him over this year, but stupidly traded him to the Rockets by choice. Considering he was drafted 56th, that still would have been excellent value even with the wait. 



> Oberto isn't even in this discussion, as he wasn't even drafted.


Being undrafted actually adds even more merit to the argument of what can be found in the second round.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

Ron Cey said:


> Turkoglu averaged 20/6/5 this year.


Sorry to break it to you, but he still sucks. I'd still take Tyrus at PF over him, Tyrus is going to have a better averages than that, and actually play defense on the other side.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

liekomgj4ck said:


> Sorry to break it to you, but he still sucks.


Good talk.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

liekomgj4ck said:


> Sorry to break it to you, but he still sucks. I'd still take Tyrus at PF over him, *Tyrus is going to have a better averages than that*, and actually play defense on the other side.


If Tyrus ever averages over 20 ppg and 5 assists, I'll be shocked... happy as can be... but shocked.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Dornado said:


> We drafted Toni Kukoc in the 2nd round, that worked.


And, again, a SF. He was also fairly old by the time he got over here (by rookie standards in the NBA, 25 years old). As I already said, when referring to "bigs", I refer to guys that play the 4 or 5, not just someone tall. The 29th overall pick, which would be the 1st round in today's NBA as well I might add. 

I'm not saying there aren't ANY. I'm just saying there aren't many, and it's extremely bad value to trade 3 2nd rounders, 2 of which are probably early 2nds, for a dude we won't even see for at least 2 years. It's just stupid, given how bad our C position is with Noah. If we run an uptempo scheme, Gray is useless. Gooden could play C, but he's really more of a PF and gone after this year. So why not grab someone that can actually contribute and get adjusted to the only basketball that counts, the NBA, rather than waste away playing Euro ball. It's just dumb. Period.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Dornado said:


> If Tyrus ever averages over 20 ppg and 5 assists, I'll be shocked... happy as can be... but shocked.


I can honestly see Tyrus being a bit like Horace Grant, who was the most underappreciated Bull in my lifetime. I'm still mad they let him walk. Tyrus is more of a shot blocker, and Horace was more of a scorer and rebounder, but I could see Tyrus developing a nice jumper like Horace had, and just being that type of player, more or less.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> It's just dumb. Period.


quite like that 99% statement......:lol:

how about this.....you win; deandre can't miss, and asik will never amount to anything.....btw, send me some lottery numbers so i'll have too much money to waste my time posting with opinioinada like "baby"bullz.eace:


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

DaBabyBullz said:


> And, again, a SF. He was also fairly old by the time he got over here (by rookie standards in the NBA, 25 years old). As I already said, when referring to "bigs", I refer to guys that play the 4 or 5, not just someone tall. The 29th overall pick, which would be the 1st round in today's NBA as well I might add.
> 
> I'm not saying there aren't ANY. I'm just saying there aren't many, and it's extremely bad value to trade 3 2nd rounders, 2 of which are probably early 2nds, for a dude we won't even see for at least 2 years. It's just stupid, given how bad our C position is with Noah. If we run an uptempo scheme, Gray is useless. Gooden could play C, but he's really more of a PF and gone after this year. So why not grab someone that can actually contribute and get adjusted to the only basketball that counts, the NBA, rather than waste away playing Euro ball. It's just dumb. Period.



You argument here is bad because you act like a 2nd round draft pick is a valuable commodity. People find diamonds in the rough here and there, but mostly 2nd rounders won't pan out. 2nd round picks are routinely tossed around like baseball cards. There's no sense getting worked up here. The Bulls roster is already overcrowded, so parting ways with picks that would be used to select players who likely would never make the squad is a smart move when it nets you a guy who is a lottery-level talent, even if you have to wait a few yeears.

You can shout louder and louder all you want about it, but it doesn't make it true.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

Dornado said:


> If Tyrus ever averages over 20 ppg and 5 assists, I'll be shocked... happy as can be... but shocked.


It's not out of reach for him, especially being a #4pick


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

So, to get back to the OP's question, I think the real answer is that NO ONE IS HAPPY unless we can argue to the death about inconsequential things. 

And we thought it was K4E!

Just a thought -- there's no reason to make ourselves miserable about how the bulls went about acquiring a 2nd round pick. 

There's enough going on in the world that we SHOULD get worked up over that can fill anyone's quota of necessary misery.

Carry on.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Good Hope said:


> So, to get back to the OP's question, I think the real answer is that NO ONE IS HAPPY unless we can argue to the death about inconsequential things.
> 
> And we thought it was K4E!
> 
> ...



Excellent post. I award you 100 sanity points. Carry on.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

DaBabyBullz said:


> And, again, a SF. He was also fairly old by the time he got over here (by rookie standards in the NBA, 25 years old). As I already said, when referring to "bigs", I refer to guys that play the 4 or 5, not just someone tall. The 29th overall pick, which would be the 1st round in today's NBA as well I might add.
> 
> I'm not saying there aren't ANY. I'm just saying there aren't many, and it's extremely bad value to trade 3 2nd rounders, 2 of which are probably early 2nds, for a dude we won't even see for at least 2 years. It's just stupid, given how bad our C position is with Noah. If we run an uptempo scheme, Gray is useless. Gooden could play C, but he's really more of a PF and gone after this year. So why not grab someone that can actually contribute and get adjusted to the only basketball that counts, the NBA, rather than waste away playing Euro ball. It's just dumb. Period.


My dear friend you are wasting your time...despite your solid arguments 
you can not convinced someone who don’t want to hear your logic.

Are you happy with how the draft panned out for the Bulls ?

When Bulls vaulted from the ninth spot to win the NBA Draft Lottery in Secaucus, N.J. on Tuesday May 20, this is what made me happy...not a draft day. 

When I look at the past draft, other than selecting an obvious best player, Pax did nothing to improve team’s roster, despite the fact that he got a few good choices. For example he could easily trade Kirk and second round picks (if necessary even next year 1st round) for Joe Alexander or Lopez or Gallinari or even try go after Beasley. Instead he acted as a “cool guy” who knows something that no one does , and selected complete withdrawal from any action.

IMO, Pax definitely not a top shelf GM, he is what JR wants him to be...an executive who is in charge for a team’s salary cap space.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> Excellent post. I award you 100 sanity points. Carry on.


According with that logic, Chicago Bulls forum will be empty soon. 
Please give me 100 points too and I will agree with everything you want to hear, including that Britney Spears lost her virginity on 1999 NBA Draft day


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

Bulls96 said:


> According with that logic, Chicago Bulls forum will be empty soon.
> Please give me 100 points too and I will agree with everything you want to hear, including that Britney Spears lost her virginity on 1999 NBA Draft day


That's right, because we at this forum know already that pointless arguing over topics that at the end of the day have little to no relevance is a top-notch way of bringing in new voices and building up membership. 

Look, you and DaBaby might be right. Maybe it was a wasted pick. But that's not logic. That's opinion. Based on a lot of premises you and DaBaby are willing to assume about what was or wasn't possible. 

Just let it go. The Internet and these boards have an excellent memory, and if this guy disappears, as VK did before him, then you'll have been right, and you can bring it up, and we'll say, yep, you were right. And if he turns out to be something of value to come on board, just as Camby's contract is ending and Lebron/Wade/Bosh is coming on board, then come on down and confess your undying love for Pax and Reinsdorf. eace:


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