# An unpopular thread about Bosh



## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Back when I first came to bbb.net, I was one of the few that wanted to trade VC to get kids to build with Bosh. It was impossible to get the help for Vince and easier IMO to trade VC and surround Bosh with young peers. This happened about a season and a half too late.

Now we are crap. Bosh has been given this team. Rightly or wrongly. A lot of pressure. It's been 2 years in the A. An extension is coming soon. So far I've seen promise not stardom. When VC was a rook there was stardom. By T-mac's 3rd year, there was stardom.

Other than garbage, insignificant minutes, I am yet to see stardom. I have yet to see him dominate a game in the manner that other stars have and can. When does promise of stardom become unfullfilled potential? How long is too long? 

I started a thread a while back asking if Chris was a max player. The overwhelming response was yes. To me a player to earn the max has to be extraordinary an the unquestioned rock of the team.

Now I AM NOT saying Chris can't get better, but as flawed as Vince was, especially in the end, there were games where he would essentially win games on his own. Where his talent would lift the team, as bad as it was.

Chris may get to that point. But if I don't see seriously similar talent and leadership from this young man that results in at least a few wins, I will support the idea of trading him before we get on the hook for a Max extension.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

hitting the panic button already? some things take time I got faith in bosh he shows flashes of what he can do to trade him would be crazy imo and on top of that to add to the problem toronto has no real threat on the team to keep defenses honest when covering bosh at least you had to be somewhat honest when Vince was on the court


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

This is not the panic button, this is a position based on history that I know too well.

It may not come to pass, (and I hope they don't) but if things do not improve from him directly, I am putting my position out there NOW.


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## Ballyhoo (May 30, 2003)

I agree with the sentiment. As yet Bosh hasn't shown dominance. He's a very good player, and I like him, but he can't dominate games. I also agree that if he hasn't shown it by the end of the year he'll never have it. I can't think of any dominant player who wasn't able to do it by their third year of starting, and most do it in their first. 

However, you also don't want to trade a player just so you don't have to pay him the max. Ask yourself are the Raptors going to be able to spend the money they save by not signing Bosh on a better player? I'm having trouble imagining such a scenario. 

I'd be willing to trade Bosh, but only if we get something as good or better back. And no, that doesn't mean only LeBron or Wade, like some are advocating on the other thread. I'd say there are probably a couple dozen players worth trading Bosh for. However I'd be very reluctant to let Babcock handle a Bosh trade. We'd get fleeced again.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Ballyhoo said:


> I agree with the sentiment. As yet Bosh hasn't shown dominance. He's a very good player, and I like him, but he can't dominate games. I also agree that if he hasn't shown it by the end of the year he'll never have it. I can't think of any dominant player who wasn't able to do it by their third year of starting, and most do it in their first.
> 
> However, you also don't want to trade a player just so you don't have to pay him the max. Ask yourself are the Raptors going to be able to spend the money they save by not signing Bosh on a better player? I'm having trouble imagining such a scenario.
> 
> I'd be willing to trade Bosh, but only if we get something as good or better back. And no, that doesn't mean only LeBron or Wade, like some are advocating on the other thread. I'd say there are probably a couple dozen players worth trading Bosh for. However I'd be very reluctant to let Babcock handle a Bosh trade. We'd get fleeced again.


No I would look at the possibility of say Bosh + Alvin (~10-12 milion) for a player you want or a combination of players you like and a pick.

At this point and even at the end of the year, someone will still see "potential" as a dominant player.

I would try to capitalise on that value if he does not show something special this year.


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## GoRaptors (Apr 3, 2005)

Bosh is a power forward. T-Mac and Carter are swing men. It usually takes the big guys longer to adjust and dominate. It took, for example, Jermaine O'neal quite a few years to elevate his game to all star level. Bosh has some troubles passing out of double teams. Once his passing skills improve and the outside shooters on the team hit a fairly high percentage, then Bosh's productivity will soar to a higher level. I think Bosh has star potential based on his play. What might not be achievable is super star potential that T-Mac and Carter have shown.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

There is a franchise player who deserves the max out there we could trade him for? Who?


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

GoRaptors said:


> Bosh is a power forward. T-Mac and Carter are swing men. It usually takes the big guys longer to adjust and dominate. It took, for example, Jermaine O'neal quite a few years to elevate his game to all star level. Bosh has some troubles passing out of double teams. Once his passing skills improve and the outside shooters on the team hit a fairly high percentage, then Bosh's productivity will soar to a higher level. I think Bosh has star potential based on his play. What might not be achievable is super star potential that T-Mac and Carter have shown.


I thought about your exact example. Some differences. Jermaine saw no NCAA experience and rode the bench for a condsiderable period on what was a good Portland team. It was not until he reached Indy that he got serious minutes. Bosh has had serious minutes from year 1, with a year of very high level NCAA action. His time should be accelerated from JO. Amare was a freak, I won't put him up there like that. He was rebounding out of the gate and scoring by the second year.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

speedythief said:


> There is a franchise player who deserves the max out there we could trade him for? Who?


The time is not now, and I'm not fielding calls. What I'm saying is that right now Chris is not a franchise player. Could he be? Maybe. 

What I AM saying is that I don't necessarily WANT a franchise player for him. I like the idea of several guys that can play who make 6 to 10 million. Rather than pay the default heir apparent the default amount for such a position, ie the max.


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

blowuptheraptors said:


> Back when I first came to bbb.net, I was one of the few that wanted to trade VC to get kids to build with Bosh. It was impossible to get the help for Vince and easier IMO to trade VC and surround Bosh with young peers. This happened about a season and a half too late.
> 
> Now we are crap. Bosh has been given this team. Rightly or wrongly. A lot of pressure. It's been 2 years in the A. An extension is coming soon. So far I've seen promise not stardom. When VC was a rook there was stardom. By T-mac's 3rd year, there was stardom.
> 
> ...


Bosh is going to get paid max dollars even if he should cease to improve through the end of his rookie deal. 

Is Bosh an Amare? No. Is he a KG? No. VC? TMac? No. No.

What he is, however, is a *21 y/o*, athletic, skilled, 6'10, future All-Star PF, that has done nothing but increase his ppg, rpg, and apg every season (including this one so far). He is a franchise-type talent and a rare commodity. He was 29th in the league in efficiency (not per 48) last season as a 20 y/o NBA sophomore.

If he was to be traded, I'm not sure what would be wanted in return: draft picks (would have to be at least two solid firsts), another young PF prospect? Looking at the PFs in the league there aren't many I would want in place of Bosh. Taking into account age, contract, talent, upside, etc, these are the only ones I would take for him:

KG
Duncan
Dirk
Amare
Okafor (maybe)
Howard (maybe)


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## Rhubarb (Mar 19, 2005)

I don't think the max contract is that big a deal.

He's going to get, regardless of yours or anyone elses definition of 'deserving it'. The days of players 'deserving' max contracts are over. You pay to keep your stars, or risk getting your behind shown up in the future.


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## trees (Jun 11, 2003)




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## Divine Spammer (Jul 11, 2005)

Patience, man. 
First of all, you can't compare Bosh to Vince nor T-Mac, IMO. 
Both of them are swing men, they played on a better team than this team (OK, T-Mac had a year with a weak team, but he hadn't shown anything special back then).
VC was the go-to-guy. Bosh isn't exactly the GTG, because players like Jalen Rose take a lot of shots. You can't call a player who shoots 10 FA in more than 40 minutes a GTG. 
T-Mac had easier life with Vince around, and afterward he elevated his game. 

I truly believe that you'll see stardom from Chris later this season. 
His season always looks like a crescendo.
This is his slow start, and even so, he improves his stats a bit. 
He has to work on several elements of his game, and he'll become a permanent all-star. 
He has nice mid-range shot. However it isn't a deadly mid-range shot.
There is an improvement in his passing skills. He has more assists with less TO. It isn't good enough, but it's something. 

Give the kid time, until his rookie contract expires, and then determine if he's max or not.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I think it's clear to a lot of people that Bosh is not going to become a KG/Duncan caliber player. From what I have seen out of him so far, I think he will peak at around 20-22 ppg and just shy of 10 rpg. Is that worth max money? I think so, given how big men nowadays are overpaid. A steady 20/10 player like Bosh is not easy to get in this league. For a team like a Raptors, it is important to keep him anyway they can, espeically even when you pay Bosh max money, the team will still have enough money to sign other players. (After current contracts like Rose come off the books in a couple years). When you look at the top 30 highest paid players in the NBA today, more than half of them aren't worth their salary. As long as Bosh can be durable and have a good attitude towards the team, I would pay give him a max contract in a heart beat. The problem with the Raptors today is not Bosh, it's the team that is surrounding him.


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## dtron (Jun 11, 2004)

big forwards and centres take longer to develop then players like vince and t mac do, shaq was really good in his first 3 years but wasnt unstoppable like he was latter on in his career.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

yeah, i think everyone has brought up good points, big men take longer to develope, he's only 21, VC and T-MAC both, for the most part played on better teams.

and also the original post. I think Bosh is a great 1/2 option on the team, but in order for him to be a great player he needs another legit 1/2 best player on the team. Maybe CV3 can be the third and MoP the fourth, but we really need another 'sorta superstar' to go along with the other 'sorta superstar' we have. look at the Pistons, who is the superstar on that team? no one really, not one player is really that much of a greater option then the other. Rip and Prince, Wallace and Wallace, all these guys are good enough to make their counterparts better.

as a team the Raptors must increase the raw talent on the team (which i think they are).


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## foul_balls (Jun 25, 2004)

Rhubarb said:


> I don't think the max contract is that big a deal.
> 
> He's going to get, regardless of yours or anyone elses definition of 'deserving it'. The days of players 'deserving' max contracts are over. You pay to keep your stars, or risk getting your behind shown up in the future.


Totally agree. I don't think JJ and Michael Redd are max type players, yet they got theirs. Bosh is in that category of "really good" right now IMO. 

Yao Ming is also a fantastic player, but for the last 3 games, he hasn't carried them on his back. O'Neal has Artest, Wade has Shaq, even Amare had Marion and Marbury but his breakout season came with the signing of Nash. Bosh doesnt' have anyone around him yet. T-Mac didn't help Orlando in his last season from going 0-9 because there was no talent surrounding him.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

If he doesn't show flashes of dominance by the end of the year, I won't be worried.

Yes he would be finishing his third season, but look at the team around him. It's hard to dominate when teams throw double, and triple teams at you. Especially when this is the first time Chris has experienced this, and now, he no longer has Vince Carter, and a great spot up shooter like Donyell who he can pass out to and have confidence in. 

He needs someone to take the pressure of him to be able to dominate, IMO. Jalen Rose can't do that. He plays the game in a selfish way. Don't think there is a worse fit beside Chris Bosh than Jalen Rose. Morris Peterson is too streak; can't be relied on as a second option. Other than those two, our players are just too young and inexperienced, or just not good enough.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, and MJ. Those are really the only guys that deserved MAX money over the last 10 years. You could build a title contender around them pretty easily.

Below that you get all-star level talent. Guys that put up nice stats and maybe even win a playoff round or two but cant really carry a team. These guys also get MAX money even though they are clearly second tier. There are just not enough top tier guys so teams overpay to get something 'close' to that. Centers are especially rare so they get big bucks for not even being all-star caliber. 

Bosh is somewhere in this second tier. Above the Tyson Chandler and Dalembert level but below the KG/JO level. As a 20/10 player,or very close, Bosh is a legit all-star who will get his max money.

Last year Bosh showed he could be the main man over the last 40 games. But defenses were not being designed to stop him. This year they are, and he is struggling. I would give him this year to figure it out. If he doesn't look any better in April and isn't ready to sign an extension then you feel out his market value.

We won't get a better player for the money as a FA. But the right trade could take us further. And you can only even consider this if Villy starts to play very well.

Or we just focus on getting a number one scoring option on the wing to take that pressure off Bosh most nights. Either thru the draft, trade, or as a FA.

Graham could become that Rip Hamilton type of go-to scorer. Not a 25ppg guy but a guy that gives you a consistant and efficient 18-22 and is hard to stop down the stretch. Graham has the inside/outside package and if he learns to use screens like Rip would not need to be a great ballhandler. But most likely it would have to be another player.


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## VTRapsfan (Dec 5, 2004)

shookem and lucky777s have great points. If Bosh doesn't turn out to be the next KG or Duncan, we need to put a star next to him who is close to his caliber. The team wouldn't have a bona fide superstar, but 2 All-Stars and a few good roleplayers would be good enough to contend, I think. We could do that through draft, trade, or free agency. Personally, I like the idea of getting rid of one of our extra wing players (Rose, Peterson) in a package with 1 or 2 of the Williamses and the Denver pick for a young swingman with star potential (Prince, J.Johnson, Igoudala, Pietrus, Outlaw, J.Jones, J.Howard, etc.). I like the trade idea because building entirely through the draft might delay the comeback process and we don't want to be coming off another 30-35 win season with Bosh as an unrestricted FA. I don't want to get a second star through free agency because I'd prefer to use the summer of 07 to sign Magloire or another decent center. If everything worked out, in the end we'd have:

PG: J.Calderon/R.Ukic/M.James
SG: J.Graham/Trade/M.Peterson*/M.James
SF: Trade/J.Graham/M.Peterson*/C.Villanueva
PF: C.Bosh/C.Villanueva/M.Bonner/P.Sow
CC: J.Magloire**/R.Araujo/P.Sow/C.Bosh

*if we keep him
**or whoever we get in summer '07


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

RaptorsCB4 said:


> shookem and lucky777s have great points. If Bosh doesn't turn out to be the next KG or Duncan, we need to put a star next to him who is close to his caliber.


For all we know - Charlie, or Joey could very well be that star we need next to him. Joey is the best bet, in my mind. Once he settles down and learns the game more, he will be a very, very good player. Although he is not similar to Richard Hamilton, that is a great comparison by 7's.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Divine Spammer said:


> Patience, man.
> First of all, you can't compare Bosh to Vince nor T-Mac, IMO.
> Both of them are swing men, they played on a better team than this team (OK, T-Mac had a year with a weak team, but he hadn't shown anything special back then).
> VC was the go-to-guy. Bosh isn't exactly the GTG, because players like Jalen Rose take a lot of shots. You can't call a player who shoots 10 FA in more than 40 minutes a GTG.
> ...



I am patient. This is where all my qualifiers come into what I write. I am NOT down on Bosh. I know it sounds funny after writing this thread. Especially because it is not his fault. Jalen truly does need to go to let it be Chris' team. But at the same time, you can't let his ENTIRE set of options run to make a decision. We cannot let him do a T-Mac.

In my mind he has to develop a much better post game to become the player he needs to be for this team. I am not down on him but there needs to be consistent improvement. I see the same player as last year. Not Bad at all, just not THE GUY...yet.

And I know it won't happen because it is not how agents and most players work. But I would be thrilled to have him sign for 2 million shy of the max as a sign that he is about winning, not the pocket book. Tayshaun did it. Ben will do it. Chris wants to win, don't take all the pie.


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## re-run (Nov 28, 2003)

I think a lot of people are worrying just because of the high expectations put on bosh even before the season started...some people looking at 22/12 numbers or anything around that range...something which isn't impossible yet it was expected of him.. There were realistic predictions about his numbers but i think some people expected too much without considering the situation that the raptors were/are in


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## VTRapsfan (Dec 5, 2004)

vigilante said:


> For all we know - Charlie, or Joey could very well be that star we need next to him. Joey is the best bet, in my mind. Once he settles down and learns the game more, he will be a very, very good player. Although he is not similar to Richard Hamilton, that is a great comparison by 7's.


I've always thought of Charlie as a super-sixth-man type of player for the Raptors teams of the future, not the star. I don't know about Joey - he might well become a 2nd star, but I don't think he'll be like Rip. I know the comparison has been made 198723 times before, but whenever I see Joey play he reminds me of Artest. While coming off screens would help cover his average handles, I think doing that occasionally and running post plays for him more often would be even better, because it takes advantage of his strength.


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

Rip can slip through things because he's so slender. Guy is like a ninja

Joey's way to big to play like rip. he'll be bouncing off people left and right

Rip's malnourishment is what sets him apart imo


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

The thing with Bosh is that he's not just a good player at 21, he's a good big man. Sure, he's no Shaq, but he is already better than most lotto-selected bigmen ever get. He's going to average close to 20 and 10 and there are only a select few players in the league each year that do that. When it comes down to it, building a great frontcourt is all-important in the NBA and with Bosh we're well on our way. 

The difference with Vince is that we weren't getting these great draft picks to add to a good team. Bosh is going to be surrounded by quality talent that fit with his abilities through the next draft really. Till then, I think we'll all have to be patient and watch our current talent develop and gel together. We already have a good mix but it's only going to get better.


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

blowuptheraptors said:


> I am not down on him but there needs to be consistent improvement. I see the same player as last year. Not Bad at all, just not THE GUY...yet.


His ever-improving stats would indicate otherwise.

BTW, as of 11/13, he is 17th in efficiency (not per 48).


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Not many big men are very good at being THE GUY, which is why it is vital that we surround Bosh with other great players. I don't want one guy to be the star leader with role players; I want a team of star leaders. Bosh is on that level already and he's going to get better. When the team starts clicking, he'll be there making a massive impact.

Another double double. 

In other news, Elton Brand doing quite well with a good team around him.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Not many big men are very good at being THE GUY, which is why it is vital that we surround Bosh with other great players. I don't want one guy to be the star leader with role players; I want a team of star leaders. Bosh is on that level already and he's going to get better. When the team starts clicking, he'll be there making a massive impact.
> 
> Another double double.
> 
> In other news, Elton Brand doing quite well with a good team around him.



After how many years of crap? What I'm saying is if he is not going to be THE GUY, he should recognise that maybe the best thing is to not be a MAX player. I don't want a Garnett either, but Chris should recognise that he is not KG and be happy with 6 and 60.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

RebelSun said:


> His ever-improving stats would indicate otherwise.
> 
> BTW, as of 11/13, he is 17th in efficiency (not per 48).


Improvement in his game is different than just pure stats. For the first time he is playing from game one and getting 40+ mins.

His numbers should average out better than last because there is no VC from game one this year making him no worse than option 2 if not option 1.

It does not make him a better player from game 82 of last year.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

^ It's not on Chris to take less money for the benefit of the team, it's on our GM to make the right financial decisions so that we can build a contender regardless.

BTW, which NBA big men are a) worth the max and b) would you rather have?


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

speedythief said:


> ^ It's not on Chris to take less money for the benefit of the team, it's on our GM to make the right financial decisions so that we can build a contender regardless.
> 
> BTW, which NBA big men are a) worth the max and b) would you rather have?


Duncan, Garnett, Shaq, Amare. (if I forgot someone I appologise)

At this point I would not rather have anyone. People can't get that I'm not down on him, but I want to see improvement. As I said just above, you can't take Chris' avg last year to have it mean much as he was still behind VC and Rose to begin the year.

It is on the GM to make the decision. If Bosh gets to a legit 22-26 and 10 player in under 40 mins average I would not really ***** about it especially if his D improves. However, other players in great situations have taken less for the good of the team. Not paupers, just less than what they could get. It is not a one way street.

I do like him getting to the rim as he has and shooting well from there. He also showed some fire. But he needs to keep getting better to deserve what is supposedly coming to him. I think he can, but it has to be fulfilled.


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

he'll be signing that deal when he's 22 years old

he might not be a freak like Amare or lebron or wade but he can still easily earn his max money. It's not like guys get 20mil anymore. He doesn't have to carry the team singlehandedly to victory after victory to earn 12mil

better giving a 22yr old 12 than throwing away a couple 6mil contracts and having a team full of Mopetes


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

blowuptheraptors said:


> I do like him getting to the rim as he has and shooting well from there. He also showed some fire. But he needs to keep getting better to deserve what is supposedly coming to him. I think he can, but it has to be fulfilled.


I think its a waste of energy to argue against him getting his max deal. He's getting it one way or the other. The Raps would be absolutely insane to trade him.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

butr, I know what you're saying and what you want out of him, but realize that Bosh is a guy who picks up momentum as the season goes along. It happened in his first two seasons, and I'm guessing it'll happen again this year. Not as dramatic a change in numbers or play, but I think he'll improve, especially in the intangibles, as the season progresses. He's already demonstrated the ability to be much more part of the team, and his assists have gone up as a result. He can still score and his rebounding has improved, hence the 10+ boards a game.

Either way, it's too early to be worried about giving him a max deal or not. Not only are we just six games into the season, it's not even his contract year yet! Is he dominating yet? No, but there's absolutely no reason to even _consider_ trading him at this point.


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

He's got way to much upside to give up on him. I think Toronto needs to follow through on the one "franchise" player with a team-first attitude. (see T-Mac, VC).


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> butr, I know what you're saying and what you want out of him, but realize that Bosh is a guy who picks up momentum as the season goes along. It happened in his first two seasons, and I'm guessing it'll happen again this year. Not as dramatic a change in numbers or play, but I think he'll improve, especially in the intangibles, as the season progresses. He's already demonstrated the ability to be much more part of the team, and his assists have gone up as a result. He can still score and his rebounding has improved, hence the 10+ boards a game.
> 
> Either way, it's too early to be worried about giving him a max deal or not. Not only are we just six games into the season, it's not even his contract year yet! Is he dominating yet? No, but there's absolutely no reason to even _consider_ trading him at this point.


These are all truths. I was putting it out there (my position) should he fail to progresss. As I said before, I would not entertain trading him at this point.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

given how we've pretty much sold our franchise for a development program around chris bosh, i don't think we have a choice. do we give him 'the max'? we give him market value. i don't think you give him max $$$ for simply being a free agent- you give him max money because you feel he's a max player. considering the way the new cba is written, chris can either be 'fair' and accept his market value when it comes time to negotiate with the raps, or he can decide to play his chips another way (with more risk) and hope to dive into the unrestricted marketplace as a jalen rose/michael redd type benefactor of the "max contract" (assuming he doesn't reach legit superstardom- otherwise he will have already signed the max with the raptors).

in terms of trading bosh, regardless of how he's playing, i don't think that'll ever become a viable option. we have mortgaged our choices, for better or for worse, around the chris bosh axis, and we have to live with that reality now. i don't see much of a way out- certainly not in trade. it's either he plays to potential and becomes our franchise linchpin, or he gets injured or summat and leaves our team in turmoil. imo, the raptors have _become_ chris bosh, in some ways, and we have to deal with the risk that that entails.

is he worth it? that's another issue. i don't think it really matters in the context of this thread, i don't think we have a choice either way, but i'm still considering my place on the bosh bandwagon myself. i haven't seen _clear_ evidence of a superstar-in-development, but he is (imo) already a $10MM man, and whether he eventually takes that figure up to $15MM (which is a big step, no question... maybe the biggest) is yet to be seen. if he stays at 'this' level, offer him 10. if he wants more, and alone believes he deserves more, he'll have a helluva time reaching unrestricted free agency without compromising his reputation around the league and sacrificing himself to risk & pressure.

for me, i accept bosh as a career raptor. i think bosh has accepted his livelihood in this city, as well. if i'm looking at anyone in terms of helping him realize his vast potential, i'm looking at sam mitchell and the coaches. if bosh's talents are still on the fence at the end of next year (or even this year), i'm not looking to trade _him_, i'm looking for another coaching staff instead. we have to develop chris bosh: this is more on our shoulders than it is on his.

peace


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

Benis007 said:


> He's got way to much upside to give up on him. I think Toronto needs to follow through on the one "franchise" player with a team-first attitude. (see T-Mac, VC).


if the team is not winning then that attitude can quickly change...see VC...he was all about this team...he went out and looked to make everyone better...he went out and sold our team to other players...but once we stopped winning and stopped listening to him...his attitude looked to himself first....i think the same is with chris bosh.....


and on the topic of the thread...i agree 100% with butr....Chris has yet to show me that talent that can lift a team to another level, Vince Carter had that talent in his early days...to tell u the truth...AD/Oakley/JYD/Alvin is not a good supporting cast...look where they are at right now...1 retired, another injured, and AD is avging 4.2 points on a preety bda Knicks team...VC made all these guys amazing players...and got them those massive contracts...he made them look amazing...he got them the open shots....they were all nothign before him....he had that talent that took us to the playoffs...he had the talent that could single handedly beat the opposing five players...litterally win the game by himself...Chris Bosh has yet to do that for us...sure he can get his 20/10 but can he get the poitns when it counts...i remember countless games where VC would have like 8 points at the half and at the end of the game have liek 30+ points...and all his points would come in the 4th quarter where he demanded the ball and made shot after shot...and made the defense look stupid...and no one could stop him....Bosh hasnt done that...and until he does that...i really dont want him blaming the raptors for this teams woes...of course we need to put a good team behind him...and i think when his contract time comes...he will have a good team behind him...let me be the first to say that i think Jose Calderon and Charlie Villanueva will be all stars in this league...and so that is a good supporting case..now do somethign with it Chris...


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## The Truth IV (Nov 3, 2005)

What disturbs me about Bosh is the attitude that he seems to have developed this year. I hope I'm wrong but he seems to think that he's doing his part, and it's his teammates that are falling short.

He needs to compare himself to the all-star forwards in the league, not to his crappy teammates (90% won't be his teammate past 2006). He needs to shoot 1000 mid-range jumpers a day - he needs to work on his post moves and develop new ones while mastering the old ones. Work on the right hand dribble and the right hand hook. Lift some weights over the summer and fill out his frame.

I'd like to see more of the MJ, Larry Bird, Reggie Miller attitude - not the Stephon Marbury attitude ("I'm better than most PGs, so I don't need to get better").

The guy was a project when drafted and he's still a project - I'm afraid that this is getting lost amid all the talk of a max deal.

The Raps made a huge mistake in taking Bosh over Wade - if you disagree then I think you're insane.
Bosh needs to prove something to us - putting up 18 and 9 for a 33 win team is nothing to rest your laurels on. Tim Thomas could do that, Keith Van Horn could do that, Glenn Robinson made a living out of that. Chris needs to step up in my opinion.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Consider me insane. 

At 21 it's starting to look like he'll get his 20 and 10, if not more, AND close to 5 assists a night. And this really is only the tip of the iceberg. Sure Wade's a star but we'd be struggling just as mightily if we replaced Bosh with him and our frontcourt would have a fraction of the talent and potential it currently does. I keep saying it but I'll say it again- with Charlie and Bosh we're developing an incredible frontcourt; the backcourt is next up (though we've already progressed significantly in this department as well). 

Give me another good frontcourt player to put next to those two- make it a center or a small forward or even another power forward- and we'll have one of the best frontcourts in the league within a few years. Rudy Gay, Sheldon Williams, Splitter, Bargnani, whatever. 

One thing about Bosh is that he is going to be lights out from midrange perimeter and that should make him one of the more difficult big man covers in the league thanks to his first step and his ballhandling. Those shots haven't been going down to start the season but there's no reason to think that will continue. His body control is going to allow him to expand his skills to an amazing level in every facet of the game. Most big men simply do not have that ability. 

Blah, blah, blah. Bosh rules. Have you seen some of the rebounds he's starting to pull in these days? Can you not see how smooth he's getting offensively? Believe me, when he's playing with a team that's cohesive, he's going to be dynamite.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

I am falling off the wheels of a crazy train.


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## The Truth IV (Nov 3, 2005)

SkywalkerAC - I respectfully consider you insane, although I agree with most of your points (did I just call myself insane?). Bosh has the potential to be a perennial all-star, and if he does, and the Raps draft wisely, the team has the potential to be a winner. Bosh is clearly good and has the potential to be great.

Wade is great already - and has the potential to be beyond great (one of the top 2-3 players in the league). There is virtually 0% chance that Wade's career will fizzle and he'll turn into Isiah Rider. There is some chance that Bosh will fizzle and turn into another Big Dog or Tim Thomas - will he put in the work to get an automatic jumpshot? Will he commit to getting stronger over off-seasons or will he follow Jalen's training regimen? Will he develop that killer instinct late in the fourth quarter?

Wade has answered all these questions already.

The choice of Wade over Bosh was a classic "drafting for need" mistake that GMs have been making for 20 years. Why did the Nets pass on Michael Jordan in '84? Because they had a shooting guard. Why did the Raps take Araujo? They needed a centre and he was allegedly the best available. 

When you are drafting in the lottery, your team is almost always an absolute mess. So why do GMs make their selections as if they are one piece away from a championship? As if they had 3-4 positions locked down for years to come? Has any team gone from the lottery, added one piece, and transformed into a contender? Ok maybe a few have with the #1 or #2 pick, but with the 8th for crying out loud? You should just draft the best player available - hope he develops nicely - and if it turns out you have two players at the same position you trade one and address your need. 

When Babcock drafted CV3, I was happy because he took who he thought was the best player. Whether he was right or wrong, at least he wasn't living in a dream world.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

^ I don't know that we passed on Wade because we thought we already had that role filled. There were a lot of question marks as to whether Wade had the size to play the 2 or the guard skills to be a point, and his jumpshot lacked (and to some degree still lacks, especially long range) consistency.

BTW, welcome to the board.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

blowuptheraptors said:


> Back when I first came to bbb.net, I was one of the few that wanted to trade VC to get kids to build with Bosh. It was impossible to get the help for Vince and easier IMO to trade VC and surround Bosh with young peers. This happened about a season and a half too late.
> 
> Now we are crap. Bosh has been given this team. Rightly or wrongly. A lot of pressure. It's been 2 years in the A. An extension is coming soon. So far I've seen promise not stardom. When VC was a rook there was stardom. By T-mac's 3rd year, there was stardom.
> 
> ...



i completely agree with you, i think a lot of raps fan are overhyping chris bosh, don't get me wrong he's good, but i haven't seen a game where he dominated the paint ( i watch all the raptors games). He shows some potential, he is just not increasing at a rate that the fans want . I don't think he wull become a JO, Kg, Duncan type of player. I think Dwight howard is a lot better than him and more powerfull down the paint. The only reason dwight howard is not scoring a lot of points, is because they're not giving him touches, but bosh touches the ball almost everytime down the court. The point is , so far, bosh is not a max player.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan (Apr 9, 2003)

While I would agree that Bosh hasn't earned a max contract yet, he is still very young, and I think he'll probably get there. However, even if he levels off at where he is now, we likely has no choice but to give him a max, or near-max, contract, or it faces losing what little credibility we have left. Sad but true.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

VC_15 said:


> i completely agree with you, i think a lot of raps fan are overhyping chris bosh, don't get me wrong he's good, but i haven't seen a game where he dominated the paint ( i watch all the raptors games). He shows some potential, he is just not increasing at a rate that the fans want . I don't think he wull become a JO, Kg, Duncan type of player. I think Dwight howard is a lot better than him and more powerfull down the paint. The only reason dwight howard is not scoring a lot of points, is because they're not giving him touches, but bosh touches the ball almost everytime down the court. The point is , so far, bosh is not a max player.



Whereas I don't think Bosh is far from becoming JO's equivalent at all, let alone not reach that level ever. Duncan is on a different level but Bosh recieved high praise from this man for a reason. 

We'll just have to see how this plays out. If Joe Johnson is a max player, then Bosh certainly will be.


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