# Blazers= 2-18 when Telfair starts.



## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

We're building a loser here. And it's depressing.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

Wait. What's it you who just a few days ago started a thread debating the merits rooting for losses? While there are compelling arguments enough for both sides, I'd hope the value of the losses would off-set depression about it. I could see depression about the season as a whole but 2-18 with Telfair starting as if it's somehow Telfair's fault when we all knew they were basically looking to tank it at that point? Hang in there, Nathan. It's not long until we'll be talking much more specifically about draft position and the like.


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

This is what's bad about losing though. He's being taught to lose. And I don't buy the age excuse. He's only 6 months younger than LeBron. LeBron had 40 pts, 7 threes, and a triple double in a win that kept his team above .500 and in the playoff race despite not having the services of his All Star teammate Ilgauskas. Good is good. Bad is bad. Telfair isn't good.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Sebastian Telfair has led the Blazers to two wins, Richie Frahm has dragged the Blazers down to 18 losses.

Ditch Frahm and the Blazers would have to beat themselves in order not to win every game next season.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

NathanLane said:


> This is what's bad about losing though. He's being taught to lose. And I don't buy the age excuse. He's only 6 months younger than LeBron. LeBron had 40 pts, 7 threes, and a triple double in a win that kept his team above .500 and in the playoff race despite not having the services of his All Star teammate Ilgauskas. Good is good. Bad is bad. Telfair isn't good.


LeBron James' Cavaliers have been losing about as much lately as Telfair's Blazers. Therefore, they are equal and identical in every way.

Both are average.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

And they're 5 and 25 without Zach, who has only played 2 games since Sebastian began starting. 

Factor in that NVE also took a seat when Sebastian began starting, and Ruben.

Is it Sebastian starting thats the issue or is it the fact that the team has been nowhere near full strength since he began starting? Ohh yeah and theres the fact that the team changed coaches, and has already said that the emphaisis for the remainder of this season was to get the young players experience and allow the Vets to get rested up from their injuries.


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

i think its pretty obvious that 98% of the board is willing to give Telfair a freepass for this season and disregard any loses and spotlight any vague highlight. thats fair enough if thats what you are into , but personally i find any loss a dissappointment and this is perhaps the worst stretch i can remember in a long while. 

whilst nathan will nodoubt get nailed by the telfair fanboys that can see nothing but the potential allstar in the making and yadda yadda - the main point i seem to come back to is this - most people are predicting 35+ wins next season (personally i think it will be far closer to 20, regardless) and the projection until we are *potentially* contenders is anywhere from 3-4 years from who you read. 
grooming him is one thing , keeping him is another - this guy doesnt want to be be the next Reef and i cant see us having this culture of winning which people talk about when we act like outlaw/viktor/ha as being part of our starting 5 in the future.... my god if thats where we are heading pull the plug now Paul. 

Myself , im hoping for major major moves in the offseason - something of EPIC proportions is needed to turn this place around , not just blind faith. Even if Telfair is twice as good next year , take away the vets and scoring - where are we... 

Management needs to step up and help this team , cause atm the players cannot get it done.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Major moves BlayZa? How? Your team is letting all the major contracts walk. What a waste.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

HKF said:


> Major moves BlayZa? How? Your team is letting all the major contracts walk. What a waste.


I won't be surprised when Damon and SHareef walk, but I will be surprised if they cut NVE and don't try to move his non-guranteed contract.


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

i think thats what im saying , thats not the right thing for mgmnt to do - they need to work some S&T's and burn the phones trying to get something worthwhile back that can plug some potentially massive holes.


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

Worst... thread... ever.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

Hey Speed... what is the price of tea in China these days?


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## TheBlueDoggy (Oct 5, 2004)

Wow... Telfair is bad because the team is not well constructed at the moment? Amazing. With that reasoning, you could blame the record on any player currently starting. Must be the Przybilla's fault, right? No, wait, how about the coach's fault. Obviously, they must be to blame since they just happen to be on the team during a bad strech. This also means they will all be career losers. Because we all know, Michael Jordan was ALWAYS a winner with the Bulls, right?


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

i dont think telfair is bad at all , i think the team is bad. and if we are as bad as i think we are going to be if nothing drastic happens we are going to have a very hard time convincing him to stick around


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## HOWIE (Dec 30, 2002)

NathanLane, this isn't a feel good movie for the whole family, it is going to take time for this team to get back to where they once were. I think that Telfair is going to be a big part of that, he is a piece of this huge puzzle. I am not convinced that he is going to save this franchise, but he is going to be part of what saves it.

I was suprised to not see a *tlong* sighting in this tread. I'm sure that he'll be along soon with complete agreement with you on Telfair being a huge disappointment.

This is really what most people wanted wasn't it? Playing the young players and getting them ready for next year. Most of the Veterns are out for the season, except our favorite Rahim and Stoudamire contracts, that IMO are playing for their S&T value. I would think that Damon walks to Miami and Rahim is going to want more then the MLE, so he and NVE are both sign&trades this Summer.

I think that the Blazers have stocked up on Ex-lax, cuz there is going to be a lot of movement this Summer. :yes:


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## ebott (Jan 7, 2003)

This season, like the rest of the post Whitsitt era, has been a DELETED  train wreck. But anyone that didn't see it coming just doesn't know what's been going on for the last ten years in Blazer land. Whitsitt was the one that got the train up to ninty heading into a curve (Hope you enjoy the metaphore) We're still in the middle of the wreck. 

Guys like Damon and DA are still on the team and the guys that Nash has brought in really don't have their feet under them yet. I'm giving the Blazers a free pass until the 06-07 season. That's when I expect to see improvement. They don't necessarily need to make the playoffs that year. But they have to be heading in that direction. 

I don't know what I'll do if they're not. I was born and raised in this one horse town and God bless 'em I love our horse. Odds are I'll just slowly lose interest if they don't start winning in the 06-07 season.


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## The Sebastian Express (Mar 3, 2005)

Actually the losses can really all be blamed on rebounding, especially offensive for the other team.

For that, I say we blame SAR.


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## Buck Williams (May 16, 2004)

Wow someone is clearly a H8ER


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

It amazes me how you decide to title the thread, when you go over all the stuff that has happened over the last year which has made this team worse off, yet you decide to blame the rookie PG. If you actually pay attention to what is going on with this team, it is all about the makeup of the team, not one player. It would be the equivelent of me starting a thread and saying that Portland is 1 and 0 during that stretch when Damon didn't play, and basically blaming Damon being out as the sole reason for victory. The reasons for Portlands slide have been because of team reasons, and Sebastien is part of that. While the young guys have been getting invaluable playing experience and allowing the team to do a major talent evaluation, they took a slide. Big deal. They weren't playing well even with all their players in place. While it would have been nice if some of the young players would have shown some fire necessary to get the team a "W" in the win loss column, the chances of it were slim at best. Now if you look at the real reasons for the losses:

1. No defensive pressure on perimiter players due to short back court.
2. Bonehead turnovers.
3. Free throw shooting percentage.
4. Defensive Rebounding.

Portland has scored enough points in most of its games to win. The problem arises when they give other teams so many more opportunities to score. What it amounts to: Too many players on the team are unwilling to do the dirty work needed to win. While guys like Ruben scrap for every ball and fight hard every play, other guys on the team will not get a defensive rebound (allowing teams several offensive rebounds in a row), nor will they set a good screen or fight through one defensively. I watch guys like Dikembe Mutombo in the Houston-Phoenix game tonight, and I watch how when the ball goes up, he just clears out the key, boxes a few guys out, and claims the rebound, and its at times like that I realize, what Portland is not doing to win. 

What I would like to see:

1. A team that takes pride in winning the rebound battle every night.
2. A team that places enough pressure on perimiter players so that the only time guys like Joel and Theo have to block a shot, is when the defense has truly broke down. (Not every play like it is now).
3. A team that can clamp down defensively for sections of the game.

Lastly, people quit whining about free agents lost for nothing. Shareef and Damon have not gone anywhere for nothing yet. Until it happens, the fat lady hasn't sung.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Don't hold your breathe on those S&T. Who's going to sign and trade for a washed up NVE with no cartilage in his knee? Those 3 guys are going to walk. The Blazer front office management is proving to be incompetent.


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## The Sebastian Express (Mar 3, 2005)

NvE isn't worth anything as a player. You are overlooking what they would sign and trade for. NvE's 11 million dollar salary is not guaranteed until January. They can waive him and he comes off the books and the cap immediately.


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## Nightfly (Sep 24, 2002)

HKF said:


> Don't hold your breathe on those S&T. Who's going to sign and trade for a washed up NVE with no cartilage in his knee? Those 3 guys are going to walk. The Blazer front office management is proving to be incompetent.


 Cap reasons for NVE.

Don't forget, the Blazers hold the Bird rights of all 3 players in question, at least, under the current CBA.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

I agree with Hasoos...


his assessments are spot on, and those are goals the team should try to achieve each night

this franchise use to be at the top of its game when it bragged about its defense and rebounding ability. We rarely win the rebound battle anymore.


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## Playmaker0017 (Feb 13, 2004)

NathanLane said:


> This is what's bad about losing though. He's being taught to lose. And I don't buy the age excuse. He's only 6 months younger than LeBron. LeBron had 40 pts, 7 threes, and a triple double in a win that kept his team above .500 and in the playoff race despite not having the services of his All Star teammate Ilgauskas.


Actually people are taking jabs at LeBron and saying he isn't a leader or winner - because of that losing streak near the end of the year.

See, the amazing thing is - it is a team game. 

Another amazing thing is - Lebron was the consensus number one pick, while Telfair was in the teens.



> Good is good. Bad is bad. Telfair isn't good.


The Cavalier's bench could probably hang with the unit the Blazer's field. This sin't exactly Telfiar's fault. It's a combination of Telfair's inexperience and fielding a bunch of guys that are sophomores in college.

Play.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

HKF said:


> Don't hold your breathe on those S&T. Who's going to sign and trade for a washed up NVE with no cartilage in his knee? Those 3 guys are going to walk. The Blazer front office management is proving to be incompetent.



NVE Isn't a S&T scenario. His contract isn't guaranteed for next season, so a team can trade a player (or players, or players + picks) to Portland for NVE. Then they can tell NVE to kiss their butts and waive him. They owe him nadda damn ting. 

as for Damon, he'll be lucky to get a MLE next year, so we probably aren't going to S&T him. Oh darn.

Shareef stands the best shot at being a S&T player, because the teams have have the cap room, probably won't be going after Shareef. And the teams that could use Shareef (obviously could sign him for the MLE) could also do a s&t for him.

I doubt it'll happen, but it is possible. But losing a player for nothing isn't always a bad thing. See: Brian Grant. Had we let him go for nothing, and then kept Jermaine (I think we traded Jermaine after we traded Brian), things wouldn't have been so ugly.


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

Couldn't this thread just as readily be entitled, "Blazers= 2-18 when Outlaw plays.", or "Blazers = 2-18 when Khryapa plays.", etc., etc.? OK, those aren't the actual numbers for those players, but you get my point. The Blazers are losing right now because they're playing more young guys and because they don't have enough upfront muscle with Zach and Theo down to control the glass. Their record says nothing about Telfair.


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## Scout226 (Sep 17, 2003)

Aren't we 1-18 when Damon starts?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

BlayZa said:


> i think its pretty obvious that 98% of the board is willing to give Telfair a freepass for this season and disregard any loses and spotlight any vague highlight.


How is it "giving a free pass" to not link the team's losing to a single rookie _who's playing well_? Sounds more like common sense, to me.


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## TP3 (Jan 26, 2003)

Typical Speed thread...over-emotional drama.


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> How is it "giving a free pass" to not link the team's losing to a single rookie _who's playing well_? Sounds more like common sense, to me.



yeah its not like this board to blame single people for losses is it? we lost common sense here a long long time ago.

my point is even when we were playing well in the past and even winning people picked out single players to pin blame on , bonzi had his turn , sheed had a few years and damons had at least 5. This is the board who rags on people that get 50pts and triple doubles remember. 

just wondering how long telfair has before its his turn to have the fingers pointed at him.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

Ever since Damon "earned" the starting SG spot back in January, we have gone:

9-32

Is it surprising that starting a guy who is 5'8 at SG has led to massive losing? Obviously there are other factors, but I think defending the SHOOTING guard position with someone who opponents can easily SHOOT over flat footed is a ridiculous matchup problem that gives them a hole to dig out of immediately each game.

What is Telfair's record when he has started with a shooting guard who is taller than 5'8?

1-0

Wow, this is fun...


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

Blazer record in games where Telfair starts and barfo is in Rose Garden: 1-0

barfo


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> LeBron James' Cavaliers have been losing about as much lately as Telfair's Blazers. Therefore, they are equal and identical in every way.
> 
> Both are average.



ummmm..... not. Cavs have won 5 of last 12 games. Blazers have won 2 of last 20. Try again.


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Sebastian Telfair has led the Blazers to two wins, Richie Frahm has dragged the Blazers down to 18 losses.
> 
> Ditch Frahm and the Blazers would have to beat themselves in order not to win every game next season.


Telfair's numbers in the two wins= 6 pts, 6 assts; 7 pts, 7 assts. He hardly led us anywhere. If anything, we won those two games DESPITE him not delivering much.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

NathanLane said:


> Telfair's numbers in the two wins= 6 pts, 6 assts; 7 pts, 7 assts. He hardly led us anywhere. If anything, we won those two games DESPITE him not delivering much.


I seem to recall Damon scoring 54 points in a loss and then getting a triple double in another loss. 

What's your point?


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

Fork said:


> I seem to recall Damon scoring 54 points in a loss and then getting a triple double in another loss.
> 
> What's your point?


My point is that Damon's record as a starter in this league is world's better than Telfair's record as a starter.


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## Blazer Ringbearer (Jan 28, 2003)

NathanLane said:


> My point is that Damon's record as a starter in this league is world's better than Telfair's record as a starter.


You don't have a good point. As usual, you are oversimplifying and sensationalizing the situation to get nowhere in particular...

Saying that the Blazers are 2-18 when Telfair starts as if it means something about his effectiveness as a player is absolutely worthless. It doesn't take into account that he has started alongside a 5'8 shooting guard, is missing the team's best player in Randolph and all of Rahim, Miles and Patterson for stretches... NVE has also been out. I bet he would be a much better shooting guard in this situation than Damon, but that's besides the point.

There are a number of reasons why the Blazers have been 2-18. Telfair's performance has been arguably quite solid, and in no way is it arguable that his performance has been the sole or even a top reason for the team's record...


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## Scout226 (Sep 17, 2003)

NathanLane said:


> My point is that Damon's record as a starter in this league is world's better than Telfair's record as a starter.


Why not wait until Telfair has as much time in the league as Damon before comparing them? Or would that not help your arguement?

Some stats from todays game:
Damon 5-19 fg%, 1-10 3pt%
Telfair 4-9 fg%, 1-3 3pt%(iirc)

Based on todays game, Telfair is world's better than Damon.. 

Stomp out Telfair haters!!!


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

NathanLane said:


> My point is that Damon's record as a starter in this league is world's better than Telfair's record as a starter.


Your logic baffles me.....

Damon has had a way better supporting cast a starter the past 5-6 years he has been on this team, how is it fair to critique Telfairs win/loss record as a starter, when the starting lineup that they are putting out their currently is a joke...

Let Telfair mature a couple years and get better talent around him to work with and you'll be eating your words...


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## Scout226 (Sep 17, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> Your logic baffles me.....


Don't worry, it baffles a lot of us..


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## stupendous (Feb 17, 2003)

3-18 :d


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## Storyteller (Dec 31, 2002)

stupendous said:


> 3-18 :d


Which is probably about the same as Damon in his first 21 games as a starter in the NBA....


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

NathanLane said:


> ummmm..... not. Cavs have won 5 of last 12 games. Blazers have won 2 of last 20. Try again.


I don't need to try again. My point is still solid: Both are horrible losers, clearly indicating that neither possesses any winning talent and both should be out of the league in a few years if GMs possess your eye for _winning_ talent, Nathan. I mean, both may put up nice numbers, but they're both intrinsic losers. Recent team record proves that for us. So does their overall team record since joining the league.

By the way, the Blazers will win the next nine championships in a row and you're a fake fan if you don't agree.

Go Blazers.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Storyteller said:


> Which is probably about the same as Damon in his first 21 games as a starter in the NBA....



as much as I wanted to trump that out, Damons first 21 games had a record of 7-14. So really, it was better. But not much better.


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## Tince (Jul 11, 2004)

This thread is unreal.

Comparing a guys record as a starter who had played next to Pippen, Steve Smith, Rasheed, and Saboins all at the same time against a guy who plays with half a team that is rebuilding isn't really fair.

If Damon was so good, we wouldn't have missed the playoffs, taken Telfair in the lottery, and be rebuilding.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

Guys just IGNORE him. Simple as that.


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

SheedSoNasty said:


> Worst... thread... ever.


I'm still sticking to this.

Flawed logic at it's finest, folks.


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## Buck Williams (May 16, 2004)

Bad logic and its not that he cant see it he is just hateing on Bassy


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## tlong (Jan 6, 2003)

Telfair's nickname should be "*Teflon*" since criticism doesn't stick to him.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

tlong said:


> Telfair's nickname should be "*Teflon*" since criticism doesn't stick to him.


Unwarranted criticism doesn't stick.

Or maybe the criticism just flies right over his head, since he's only about 46 inches tall?

But seriously, Telfair is improving every game, so I don't see why he should have the blame for our horrid record laid at his feet. He's cutting down on turnovers. He's getting a lot of easy looks for his teammates, like the two dunks Khryapa had the other day.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

NathanLane said:


> My point is that Damon's record as a starter in this league is world's better than Telfair's record as a starter.


Since Telfair became a starter, the team has 3 wins with Telfair in the lineup.

Since Telfair became a starter, the team has 2 wins with Damon in the lineup.

Clearly, that means Telfair is 50% better than Damon. Not just 20% or 30% or 40% or even 45% but 50%. 50% is a lot and even YOU can't argue with those kinds of numbers. 

Telfair: 50% better than Damon.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Fork said:


> Telfair: 50% better than Damon.


Talk about damning with faint praise... even as a tongue-in-cheek exaggeration that doesn't sound like an appealing prospect.

Ed O.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

Is this how pathetic some fans on this board have become? Blaming the 19-20yr old rookie for the TEAM's record?

Like Al Jefferson would have made a difference? Ooooh...Maybe we'd only be 4-16 then, still a loser but just not as much.......whatever...

Or maybe we could have had Kris Humphries or Kirk Snyder...two guys who can barely get off the bench for a team that is as piss poor (or worse) as POR is.

Or maybe JR Smith..who plays for a much WORSE team...or Josh Smith another "loser"

Or maybe Luke Jackson who has been shelved for a a majority of the year and couldn't get off CLE bench before he was.....

NO I got it...Beno Udrih...all of POR problems would have been solved if they had just selected Beno Udrih......

Give me a break...this type of garbage is PAST annoying...this season is difficult enough to handle as it is...trying to blame a rookie out of HS for the majority of the teams woes is BEYOND absurd......truly it is....

Hasoos was right, The vets leftover are not good enough to carry the team, and the young players aren't ready yet...those two combined with some untimely injuries give you this...an embarrasing and sometimes hard to stomach, lost season. Let's just hope, with all sincerity that NAsh or whomever the GM is, HITS big on draft day, and that POR is able to get SOMETHING for one or more of NVE, SAR and Damon.


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## Todd (Oct 8, 2003)

You know what's PAST annoying? You guys always apologizing for the way this team is playing! We suck, and we're about 3 GOOD VETERAN players, and 1 leader away from making any kind of waves in the NBA. Paul Allen needs to sign Phil J just so we can coax some trades and lure some players, because this team is going nowhere!!

I got my flame suit on :rocket:


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## Tince (Jul 11, 2004)

Since Mo has got fired, what's Portland's record when Damon started and Telfair didn't and vise versa?


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## Perfection (May 10, 2004)

Fork said:


> Since Telfair became a starter, the team has 3 wins with Telfair in the lineup.
> 
> Since Telfair became a starter, the team has 2 wins with Damon in the lineup.
> 
> ...


Damn, that's Bill O'Reilly style logic/math....so it must be right!


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