# T.J Ford/Jose Calderon To.....



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

If the Raptors decide to trade one of T.J Ford or Jose Calderon where will they end up? and who are the Raptors looking to get in return? Are Draft picks or established players preferred?

One rumor is if the Miami Heat choose to pass on Derrick Rose that they would be interested in bringing in T.J.
http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/49112


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## chocolove (Apr 4, 2006)

I dont think the Heat really have anyone the Raps would want back. Wade is obviously off limits, I suppose Marion would be an option but I really hope the Raps dont get him because of the money he wants. Maybe we could get Haslem back but I dont think we need another PF even though hes tough and can play D


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

Josh Howard?

i've heard mike dunleavy (i say NO)


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## george (Aug 8, 2003)

Dorrell Wright? And maybe a future pick.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

There are RJ to toronto rumors swirling around funny that the proposed trade does not involve Tj or Jose


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Theres really nobody I want from the Heat.

The closest thing I would do is maybe Ford+filler for Blount+Wright and maybe the choice to switch 1st picks for next season.

Basically you are banking on the Heat sucking next year and giving us a lottery pick. Otherwise, I'm not really interested in Haslem because he's too small and Marion may be too expensive.


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

Haslem is a damn good partner for Bosh, but he's no scorer. Toronto needs a punch.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

an RJ trade not involving ford/calderon? whaaaat

hate rj, but that'd be dope.

Dorell Wright is a player i'd welcome here, dwyane wade said dorell is a better athlete then himself. dorell has a good all around game. good rebounding for a small forward, check his starts. also a really underrated shotblocker.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Haslem next to Bosh? How has this guy become so overrated? 

Wright has great defensive potential and he makes us more athletic but I'm not sure he'll ever be an impact player.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

southeasy said:


> an RJ trade not involving ford/calderon? whaaaat
> 
> hate rj, but that'd be dope.


http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=8511


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Returning the favor of them raping us with the VC trade?

It's just some made up rumor from a random website. If the Kidd trade was any indication, Thorn will not give players away for nothing even if he is desperate for a trade. There is no way in hell for him to do what Babcock did.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

if chicago bring in d'antonio, the bulls could be scary with tj. i'd hate to face them.


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## dirtybird (Mar 16, 2007)

spuriousjones said:


> if chicago bring in d'antonio, the bulls could be scary with tj. i'd hate to face them.


Ford can't play under control when he's at his top gear. So his quickness isn't as useful as it is for Iverson and others.


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## chocolove (Apr 4, 2006)

Hmmmmmm real far fetched move here BUT lets say the wiz decide they want to build around Butler and Jamison and that Arenas is too much of a distraction, you think theres some way we could send them TJ or Jose a few expirings and our first rounder in some sort of trade for Arenas. nahhhh but i can dream right.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

arenas? really? he plays worse D then jose & tj. he's still got injury concerns and doesnt he have an opt out this season. you think he'd come reasonably cheap?

i'd really, really, rather have butler (but that's out of the question) and then JAMISON (who's a FA) he would be perfect for our team, before gilly.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

I don't see how Gil fits here with us.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I wouldn't even consider Arenas if he doesn't play a season healthy. You don't want the Wizards to pull a Grant Hill on us.


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## Vivaldi (Nov 12, 2006)

We want Calderon. not Ford. How much are you guys willing to pay to keep him?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Vivaldi said:


> We want Calderon. not Ford. How much are you guys willing to pay to keep him?


Calderon is not leaving Toronto unless it's in a sign and trade. Colangelo has made it clear that he will match any offer for him.

It's what you guys can offer the Raptors to get Calderon, not what the raptors can offer to keep Calderon.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

Vivaldi said:


> We want Calderon. not Ford. How much are you guys willing to pay to keep him?


not all of us agree to me I like Tj more than jose


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## Vivaldi (Nov 12, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> Calderon is not leaving Toronto unless it's in a sign and trade. Colangelo has made it clear that he will match any offer for him.
> 
> It's what you guys can offer the Raptors to get Calderon, not what the raptors can offer to keep Calderon.


Let's see Colangelo back his talk. We are prepared to throw full MLE type of money at Calderon.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Vivaldi said:


> Let's see Colangelo back his talk. We are prepared to throw full MLE type of money at Calderon.


He is at least getting 6 mil a year. If you guys offer the full MLE Calderon wouldn't even accept that offer. Try signing Chris Quinn or something.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

Calderon signing an offer sheet for the MLE would be perfect. that's pretty much the absolute best case scenario: we get Jose at a sweet discount, don't wade into the optics of TJ's contract vs Jose's contract by simply being the by-standing team that matches; we avoid being the cheap-o that lowballs their (arguably) best player yet get the benefit of the cheap deal.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

MLE is 6mill now I think


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Dee-Zy said:


> MLE is 6mill now I think


It should be close, 5.5 mil or so. Jose should get 7 mil a year easy. Will any team be willing to offer him that? I just hope BC can tweak this team in the off season and give us a slightly new look for 08/09. The East will be tougher next year and I am not sure if we would even make the playoffs with our current roster. We can look for Miami, Chicago, Charlotte, and New Jersey to all have better seasons....and who knows about the Bucks and Pacers? Toronto is no lock for the post season in 09.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

contract will start at 8.5

mark it down


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

I wouldn't care ^^^

As long as he is in Toronto.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

the only deals coming to my mind for TJ actually are the maggette/artest/portland suggestions. 

would it be that simple? 

probably not.

TJ, Moon, and Hump

for 

Artest and Sacto's pick?

TJ
Kev Mart
Moon
Humphries;D
Miller/Hawes

nah, they can't afford to give up their pick with such limited upside. 

TJ/Hump for Artest and their second rounder.

After all, I said way back then that I like the fit with Artest/Moon on the wings. 

Draft Hibbert. Re-sign Delfino. You've still got AP, Rasho, Garbo, Joey, Kapono, and others that BC can trade or let expire next season AND the MLE to spend, AND the ability to re-sign Delfino.

Jose/Roko
Artest/AP
Moon/Kapono/Delfino
Bosh/Bargnani/Jorge
Hibbert/Rasho/Baston

Looks like a pretty solid two-way team to me. Plus we've got a second rounder (woopdidoo). BC wouldn't need the MLE to fill out the roster, which is definitely "professional" and "competitive", if a little boring. 

doesn't really seem like BC's style of game but he is now putting together a team for the eastern conference and i think that lineup is a tough eastern conference squad that can slow you down, defend, and make shots. it has great depth and is easily upgradeable with the MLE, LLE, draft, and trade. Bosh and Bargnani are fortified around at every position with length, deep with veterans. 

My biggest concern with Artest would be his contract, that he'd jump ship. But I think he'd largely be happy to be back with a competitive veteran team. I'm not a huge fan of his game but the guy gets the job done on both ends of the court.

So is it at all fair for Sacramento? f it's not, they have contracts we can eat by throwing in our expirings but I think it's reasonably fair on its own merit, not terribly original, mind you, it is 8:49 in the morning and haven't been to sleep yet so you'll have to forgive me. 

Sacto is going to get hammered in the West next season, with or without Artest, and they shouldn't really want to resign him when his contract is up so why not hook up a point guard that can get out and run with CP3, Parker, and AI (et al). It's looking like wings at their pick in the draft (cept for Westbrook) so why not go young and fully tank it (while putting a more exciting package on the floor)? TJ gives you distribution and scoring can put on a show. ****, we all know what he can do

TJ/Udrih (nice PG rotation; not unlike Forderon)
K-Mart/Garcia (makes for a short backcourt but they're explosive and crafty)
Donte Green/MLE
Humprhies/Sheldon Williams (do Kenny Thomas or SAR even play anymore?) unleash the hump
Hawes/Miller (decect)

It's not a great team but it's on the up and up...kinda. Sacto is in some rough shape and need a shake. I really wouldn't be surprised if Kris started for them and put up some solid numbers.

Raps need to get bigger and stronger; Kings need to get younger and faster. I think it works. I quite like this one, now that I see it laid out. If we're going to "make the big push" starting this summer, that's about as good as we can expect. 

The other team to look at is Seattle. If they take either Beasley or Lopez with their first pick, they should look to trade Wilcox for a starting PG like TJ. It's pretty fair value straight up, giving the Raps their big, athletic finisher, allowing them to go wing in the draft while the Sonics get their run and gun PG.

TJ
Durant
Green
Beasley
Petro

sickness

but wilcox probably isn't the answer at C, now is he?


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

spurs and pistons have shown that once you've got a tough, veteran team, it's not that hard to add a piece here and there on the cheap. BC has already shown more than ample skill in doing just this. 

Artest and Hibbert. I love it. Matching up with Howard and Lebron we know we've got to get as big as we can around B&B. 

now i just have to hope that Indy takes Westbrook, Petrie covets a wing in the draft, Udrih signs for cheap, oh, and Ron is cool with Toronto and that Hibbert doesn't suck.

Man it's going to be a long offseason. At least it will be an eventful one.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

wouldn't mind artest if only because it would put pressure on the team to perform *now*. the calls for patience and excuses for being young would not apply anymore.

but i don't really think artest is the guy. he hasn't impressed me the last two years. he looks a little bigger and a little slower and a little older. i like him as a teammate, though.

i still think shelden williams could develop into a decent fit.

but it's the age-old question: if this team is going to get bigger and tougher by acquiring a stud to play alongside bosh (hibbert, shelden, whoever), where does that put bargnani? this team will not get bigger and tougher by acquiring a guy to come off the bench with rasho. they have to make a decision on that- can bargnani learn to play bigger? if not, can he learn to play on the wing (still my choice)? if not, it may be time to part ways.

at the end of the day, bargnani is the axis around whom the team's entire offseason will revolve, more so than even jose and tj imo. colangelo's opinion on how he fits long-term will dictate the other moves he makes for this team.

i sound like a broken record but we cannot forget the stall in bargnani's development that occurred this season. why did it occur? that's key. if mitchell needs help, get mitchell some help. if it's mitchell himself, mitchell's got to go. if bargnani needs help, get bargnani some help. if it's bargnani himself, bargnani's got to go. the fact that the guy pretty much wasted an entire season in the nba cannot be ignored. why was andrea's last game of the season among his _worst_ games of the season? it's not a coincidence; it's an issue that needs to be addressed.

peace


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Sheldon is like 6'6" how the hell are we going to have him alongside Bosh? Bosh can't play the 5 and neither can the landlord.


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## Onions Baby (Mar 12, 2007)

Sheldon Williams is listed at 6'9", 250 lbs. Ben Wallace has made a pretty good career playing center at 6'9", 240.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Dee-Zy said:


> Sheldon is like 6'6" how the hell are we going to have him alongside Bosh? Bosh can't play the 5 and neither can the landlord.


Not as a starter but as some girth off the bench, an upgrade over Humphries. Sheldon measured at 6' 7 1/2" in flat feet and a great 7'4 1/4" reach....better than guys like Bosh, Bogut and Boozer.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i'm a firm believer that size itself is far less important to a player's game than the way he _uses_ his size. shelden williams, for example, was born to play in the paint. his arms are active, he views shotblocking as a real option and he doesn't look around before attacking the glass. he's not naturally gifted but he knows how to utilize the gifts he does have. that's an underrated trait, imo.

the fact of the matter is that, at least to date in his career, andrea bargnani is quite the opposite. he won't block/alter shots unless he surprises himself (i think he can work on that), his reactions to go to the glass are very slow and delayed- as if he's seeking permission to grab the ball- and he is imo a player who defends as if he's always waiting for help to arrive. these are things that make him seem much, much smaller than he is. 

will it change? hard to say. confidence is the operative word. some people eventually get it, some never do. as a european kid, i know nothing about andrea bargnani's upbringing/personality, so i can't even hazard a guess at this point. the team would have to make the call on that one.

peace


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

i like sheldon. he looks like a giant dwarf.

jose's blog-
wants to start. wants to win. would take sports offer over economic


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

To compare players with Ben Wallace isn't very fair. Wallace is a "oddity", not the norm.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

pretty sweet. good outlook, decent english vocabulary, but apparantly forgot it was new jersey not cleveland to eliminate us last year haha

he really is one of the true leaders on our team and he's right, we lack response in games we should win.

nice predictions too, but the spurs won't be there, lucky for calderon.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

southeasy said:


> pretty sweet. good outlook, decent english vocabulary, but apparantly forgot it was new jersey not cleveland to eliminate us last year haha
> 
> he really is one of the true leaders on our team and he's right, we lack response in games we should win.
> 
> nice predictions too, but the spurs won't be there, lucky for calderon.


is it a veiled shot at sam?

we don't respond. we lose to worse teams. etc. is he taking a shot at the collective mind of the team: "this is not a team that can only aspire to lose in the first round."

probably shouldn't read too much into the writings of a guy that can't remember who we lost to.

jose's a keeper but it'll still be interesting to find out what packages are offered for him.


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## World B. Free (Mar 28, 2008)

Przybilla + Outlaw for Calderon.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

World B. Free said:


> Przybilla + Outlaw for Calderon.


that's been proposed on here before. of course fans have no say in the matter but it was refused nevertheless. 

keep in mind that collangelo refused josh childress and the no.11 last summer for jose and jose's value has exploded since.

yes, jose would look great with the blazers but i really don't believe its going to happen. like portland, toronto needs to concentrate talent from quantity to quality and is most probably not going to trade a top young pointguard for bench players.

ford, on the other hand, is attainable. he gets bedraggled online but is very good young pointguard himself and has a very high ceiling. he's a better pointguard than anyone in this years' draft right now. i think only rose has a higher ceiling. 

its kind of like portland's situation with rudy fernandez (if rudy pans out)-- a quality young player that's stuck behind an even better player.

in that vein, a "doable" deal between the teams might revolve around tj and fernandez.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

jose's blog entry sounds like a vent to me. i have no idea what happened at his exit interview but that's pretty eye-opening stuff.

of course, i don't blame him for anything he said (typed), i'm not surprised that he feels that way- i'm just a little surprised that it came out like this. there must be a reason for it, and it's the reason that i'm intrigued by. any time things come out of nowhere, even if you always knew they were there, you still wonder why they came out _now_.

i would've loved to have been a fly on the wall at his interview. something appears to have set him off.

peace


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Fans often put too much stock into what a player says in interviews. like when VC was here and he lied and lied and just said crap he knew he should say when he didn't mean it.

Some guys, like TJ, are dumb and say the wrong thing all the time. Mike James got caught in the Toronto media spotlight and lost himself the chance to stay here in a good fitting role.

Other guys, like Jose, are smart and say the 'correct' thing during the season to the press. They are good teammates and don't cause trouble. They share their true thoughts only when it is appropriate. As a FA now he is letting it be known what he would like.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

ballocks said:


> wouldn't mind artest if only because it would put pressure on the team to perform *now*. the calls for patience and excuses for being young would not apply anymore.


that's the best lineup i can think of to "win now" by trading TJ. maybe Maggette but i don't see him as more of a winner than Ronron.

personally, i still think we should be prepared to tank next. trade with portland (Calderon or TJ), go young, and be prepared to tank if Bosh doesn't hold up. i don't know that we're in any position to "go for it", even in the east. 

but maybe i'm wrong. i like the lineup to compete now and BC isn't really stuck with no flexibility.

i also like bargnani possibly coming off the bench. i think he can get stronger and be an effective starting center or even start at SF but there's nothing wrong with coming off the bench, as he should get more shots that way.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

SkywalkerAC said:


> that's the best lineup i can think of to "win now" by trading TJ. maybe Maggette but i don't see him as more of a winner than Ronron.
> 
> personally, i still think we should be prepared to tank next. trade with portland (Calderon or TJ), go young, and be prepared to tank if Bosh doesn't hold up. i don't know that we're in any position to "go for it", even in the east.
> 
> ...




Horrible line of thought. We are so far from having to blow this team up and you are talking about tanking?


damn


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Rockets have about 10 million in expiring contracts that end after next season. Mainly though, they are guards in which you guys have plenty. We could possibly split with one of our forwards.

Not sure if this is realistic, but of those contracts its Luther Head, Bobby Jackson, Steve Franics. Then possibly thrown in Chuck Hayes in as well. 

For either Calderon or TJ. We just need a true backup, or even starter desperately.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Bobby Jackson is the only one I think is of interest. Chuck Hayes is a nice player to have on most team but With Bosh as the #1 here he is useless unless he can guard the 3 but that would make him useless on O.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

OneBadLT123 said:


> Rockets have about 10 million in expiring contracts that end after next season. Mainly though, they are guards in which you guys have plenty. We could possibly split with one of our forwards.
> 
> Not sure if this is realistic, but of those contracts its Luther Head, Bobby Jackson, Steve Franics. Then possibly thrown in Chuck Hayes in as well.
> 
> For either Calderon or TJ. We just need a true backup, or even starter desperately.


I guess even the 25th pick would have some interest for us.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I thought the Rockets are set since Rafer Alston got a basketball brain transplant. That kid Aaron Brooks is pretty good as well, and you guys still got Steve Francis. I don't think the Rockets will try to go after Calderon/Ford, they need a backup center for Yao and some athletic 3 behind Battier.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Dee-Zy said:


> Horrible line of thought. We are so far from having to blow this team up and you are talking about tanking?
> 
> 
> damn


tanking was probably the wrong word. i meant that we should be prepared to miss the playoffs if things go awry. we are going into next season with a lot of changes and i expect numerous trades through the season and there will likely be a coaching change in the next 12 months as well. no, we shouldn't go into next season looking to tank but if we aren't in firm playoff position after the all-star break, we obviously aren't ready and should take a step back in order to take that next stop forward. sure, the bulls would have preferred to be in the playoffs this season but now they have the 9th pick in the draft (with a shot at the top 3) and head into next season young, athletic, and coached by D'Antoni. the Nets took a step back and should have the 10th pick. 

i don't think BC will set us up for failure but don't think he won't pull the rip cord on our vets and Sam if things aren't looking good.


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## Balzac (Jun 29, 2006)

Rafer Alston has always been a terrible point guard. He takes too many shots and doesn't shoot a decent %.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

i was reading how there some kind of rift between baron davis and nellie. hard to see bd walk away from so much money with so few team with capspace, but if it were to happen and bd walks, think nellie would be interested in tj? a tj/ellis backcourt would be maybe the smallest ever but would be so quick its crazy. if anyone could make it work its nellie.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

TJ would wet his pants if he could play in the GS system. He'd avg 25 FGA per game.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

Nellie said TJ was the closest thing in the league to STEVE NASH

yeah he really said it

Let's ROBB Golden State.


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## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

would u do calderon for camby and kleiza? if not, and ur serious about jefferson, we could offer the same package to NJ in a 3-way deal.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

pac4eva5 said:


> would u do calderon for camby and kleiza? if not, and ur serious about jefferson, we could offer the same package to NJ in a 3-way deal.


that's actually not that bad of an offer. Camby would fit well with the current roster and Kleiza gives them a scorer at the 3.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

seifer0406 said:


> I thought the Rockets are set since Rafer Alston got a basketball brain transplant. That kid Aaron Brooks is pretty good as well, and you guys still got Steve Francis. I don't think the Rockets will try to go after Calderon/Ford, they need a backup center for Yao and some athletic 3 behind Battier.


Well Rafer is our starter, and Brooks, although a nice prospect, is just too small. I see Early Boykins all over again in him. He is a rookie, so he does need some time.

Right now though, Franics can be a nice backup, but his contract is 3 million expiring, so I would be willing to part with him for the right deal. 

We just need a true point guard on this team. Rafer is doing a decent job at running the O, but it seems as if he is not the true PG the Rockets need. Thats where the deal I proposed comes into play.

We do have the 25th pick as well, but I was hoping to keep it for a decent PF/C combo player. But like the Francis scenario, if the deal is a good one, then I think we would be willing to part with it as well.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> that's actually not that bad of an offer. Camby would fit well with the current roster and Kleiza gives them a scorer at the 3.


Kleiza has great size at the 3 spot, 6'8" 245....that is the type of 3 man we need. This is a solid deal, although I would hate to see Jose go. Would a deal of Ford and Kapono get it done? Denver was always looking to improve their 3 point game.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Jose on his blog has said he wants to start next season


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

does golden state still have their traded player exception from the richardson deal? if so, it would be possible to swing a tj for belinelli (collangelo tried to get him last draft) and their pick, without having the byc issue affecting things. sending back marco and their pick (#14) would have tj be a net cost to them of just the equivalent of the MLE or less.

toronto gets two more young prospects and a better salarycap position. 

that's kinda interesting to me. they have to open their wallets pretty wide to keep ellis and biedrins. hm... playing hypothetical...if they can swing a bdiddy for marion deal (davis and wade would be maybe the best backcourt in the league) i think they end up with a better team. pretty much ultimate smallball

i think we'd really benefit from adding more young talent to our core. right now we have bosh and andrea and only one of them is a starter.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Junkyard Dog13 said:


> Jose on his blog has said he wants to start next season


Kind of funny how the media went berserk on TJ when he said that he couldn't picture himself coming off the bench for the next 3 years. Now that Calderon declares that he wants to start, nobody is criticizing him for not being "team first."

People need to understand that everyone in the NBA wants to play more minutes. The only difference that separates those who are considered "selfish" from the "unselfish" ones is whether or not the player feel that the team has a better chance to win with him playing those minutes. For TJ it often felt like as if people just assume that he wants to play for the sake of himself, and no one really considers that perhaps he feels that he can help the team more by playing. Frankly this really isn't that fair and might not be accurate. It would be a shame if some team turns down Colangelo's trade offer of TJ Ford simply because of this "selfish" label that is perhaps wrongfully placed on TJ.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> Kind of funny how the media went berserk on TJ when he said that he couldn't picture himself coming off the bench for the next 3 years. Now that Calderon declares that he wants to start, nobody is criticizing him for not being "team first."
> 
> People need to understand that everyone in the NBA wants to play more minutes. The only difference that separates those who are considered "selfish" from the "unselfish" ones is whether or not the player feel that the team has a better chance to win with him playing those minutes. For TJ it often felt like as if people just assume that he wants to play for the sake of himself, and no one really considers that perhaps he feels that he can help the team more by playing. Frankly this really isn't that fair and might not be accurate. It would be a shame if some team turns down Colangelo's trade offer of TJ Ford simply because of this "selfish" label that is perhaps wrongfully placed on TJ.


that's a good point. the thing is (and this is where it gets complicated) i think it always goes beyond words- in this case, to calderon's benefit and tj's detriment. 

for me, tj's body language spoke louder than the words that came out of his mouth. when he said he wanted to start, we heard the emotion in his voice- and i think it's the emotion that we found most revealing, it's the emotion that we judged. in other words, we heard _the way_ he said what he said- and that probably changed how we felt about the things he said. 

conversely, with calderon, something tells me that what he was trying to say in his blog was lost in translation. i may be wrong, but i'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. something tells me that he may have been responding to the critics who said he doesn't _want_ to start, that he doesn't want to _lead_. if he had said what he wrote in an interview that was broadcasted on the radio or tv, i think it would have come across a little differently.

even so, your point is well taken. it's clear that we're willing to give calderon the benefit of the doubt and far more reluctant to give it to tj. but i don't think that's necessarily unfair. i think it's just the result of the reputations they've built for themselves over their time in toronto. actions always speak louder than words.

peace


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## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

billfindlay10 said:


> Kleiza has great size at the 3 spot, 6'8" 245....that is the type of 3 man we need. This is a solid deal, although I would hate to see Jose go. Would a deal of Ford and Kapono get it done? Denver was always looking to improve their 3 point game.


i LOVE ford but he just doesnt fit our team, especially if we keep iverson :throwup:


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

ballocks said:


> even so, your point is well taken. it's clear that we're willing to give calderon the benefit of the doubt and far more reluctant to give it to tj. but i don't think that's necessarily unfair. i think it's just the result of the reputations they've built for themselves over their time in toronto. actions always speak louder than words.
> 
> peace


I don't know, would people feel the same way about TJ if he doesn't have the big injury risk? It is true that some of TJ's body language may send a negative vibe to Raptor fans, but that vibe is often greatly magnified in the eyes of people who wanted him gone before these incidents. It is really unfortunate because at the end of the day, he is still an asset of the team since we did sign him to that big contract. With the media and the fans unnecessarily pushing TJ's stock even lower, it really isn't going to help Colangelo gain any leverage in any trade talk that he may engage this summer.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

BC could still very well trade Jose. he has an extremely tough decision ahead of him. there will be offers made on both of them. both are starting point guards and there will always be a demand. who can come up with the best offer?

i was cautiously optimistic that we could keep both but we all know it's not going to happen.

here's where BC really earns his money. he's forced into a tough decision that will define his reign in toronto. i have faith in him as a business man and he's in a position of power so I have confidence it will turn out in our favour. 

tj's value is not dimished, nor is calderon's. both guys have shown what they can do in the nba. calderon's shooting percentage and assist to TO were ridiculous; and TJ's were among the best in the league as well. 

with a team of finishers, TJ would be one of the best assist men in the nba. of that i have no doubt. if someone want to run a freelance PG-oriented offense and has the finishers to do it, TJ is the guy for you. 

TJ and Rasho to the Oklahoma Sonics

Ridnour, Wilcox, Donyell, and the 24th pick to the Raps.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

32nd and 43rd picks could also be interesting in a deep draft.


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## pac4eva5 (Dec 29, 2005)

didnt the raps have the best 3 point shooting team in the L? i cant see jose getting much better than he was this season, even with more minutes. isnt he already 27? not exactly young. im thinking somebody might pull a rashard lewis deal for him. i hope not tho...


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

pac4eva5 said:


> didnt the raps have the best 3 point shooting team in the L? i cant see jose getting much better than he was this season, even with more minutes. isnt he already 27? not exactly young. im thinking somebody might pull a rashard lewis deal for him. i hope not tho...


Calderon turns 27 in September, so he isn't really that young. He's just entering his prime though and I would expect another 5-6 years of good basketball for him, which is about the length of his next contract.


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

*Why Raps should trade Calderon*



> There is no market for T.J. Ford, while teams privately covet Jose Calderon, who would make both a playing and cultural fit in markets such as Miami and Los Angeles. Not that the Raptors needed further evidence of the growing divide at the point, but quotes attributed to Calderon highlight a rift with Ford. "I would like to start and that's the most important thing,'' Calderon is quoted as saying in yesterday's edition of the Spanish daily sports newspaper El Mundo Deportivo, a sentiment he first shared with visitors to his website. But now comes the kicker. Continued Calderon in the article: "I've been two years with him but I don't know if I could be another year because things would have to change." Barring a complete personality makeover by Ford, which doesn't seem likely, nothing can change in Raptorland. That is why a change in scenery for Calderon is best for all parties concerned.


http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/nba

*Clips Maggette to Toronto?*



> That is why a change in scenery for Jose Calderon is best for all parties concerned. People have been clamouring for a player such as Corey Maggette of the Los Angeles Clippers, an athletic wing who is capable of averaging 20 a night and attacking the rim. The Clippers can use a point guard and Calderon's family probably wouldn't object to southern California's warm climate. It's just one of many possibilities to ponder as July 1 approaches and as the Raptors try to solve their mess at the point position


http://msn.foxsports.com/rumors


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

It looks like there is more and more hype being built around a Jose Calderon trade. I think among most Raptor fans that Jose Calerdon is the proffered player to keep . But if the Raptors can get a player like Maggette or Artest, should the Raps pull the trigger on such a deal

PG: Ford
SG: Parker
SF: Maggette
PF: Bosh
C: Bargnani 

That lines up is a definite improvement over what the Raptors have now


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

If Jose wants to start, he should come to Houston. We will welcome him with open arms.

Yeah I know, I am still dreaming. We just really need him...


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## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

I think there is a good market for TJ Ford. The media makes him a worst player than he really is. I prefer Calderon too, but Ford is a good point guard with great speed, can create his own shot, and can involve others. I like Calderon for being a better distributor and shooter. Ford is the better creator and defender (stealing, quick hands wise). 

I like the idea of Ford for Artest or Ford for Maggette. 

But how about this idea with New York, 
Ford+Nesterovic+Graham for Curry+Crawford 

This gets us a solid center, tough player that will improve our weakest position. TJ is the point guard that D'Antoni wants. Breaking out Randolph and Curry will do good for the Knicks. 

Calderon / Ukic
Crawford / Parker
Moon / Kapono
Bosh / Garbajosa
Curry / Bargnani


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

changv10 said:


> I think there is a good market for TJ Ford. The media makes him a worst player than he really is. I prefer Calderon too, but Ford is a good point guard with great speed, can create his own shot, and can involve others. I like Calderon for being a better distributor and shooter. Ford is the better creator and defender (stealing, quick hands wise).
> 
> I like the idea of Ford for Artest or Ford for Maggette.
> 
> ...


BC does not believe in trading within the division


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

maggette has to be the most overrated player on messageboards.

he's 6'6 without guard skills, a poor shooter, has a terrible relationship history with coaches, and has played more than 70 games/season 3 times -- the only year his team has ever made the playoffs was when he only played 32 games. oh wait, he's also going to command a whopper salary. great package folks. maybe we can throw in some picks too.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

yeah, I would consider trading Ford for Maggette, but definitely not Calderon.

Curry and Crawford are not what this team needs. We need rebounding/shotblocking and someone that can finish inside. With these 2 players we get a center that only plays on one end of the court and a combo guard that is a streaky shooter. If we are making a trade with the Knicks it should be their #5 pick this year along with one of their overpaid players for Calderon and salary relief. If the pick is not included, I don't think we are interested in any of their current players.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

I would let Jose go for the #5 pick.....but I say we keep him and ship TJ out for what ever we can get....it seems like Ford has had a bit of a personality conflict with guys on the team and Jose is just letting it be known now.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

The media is doing the same thing to TJ that they did to Rafer and then Mike James. They give these type of players open questions and just let them run their mouths until they talk themseveles into a hole and look stupid or selfish. Then reporters bury them in the hole the player dug for himself.

Jose was much smarter dealing with the media and comes out looking like a hero.

But now Jose is in a major contract situation. He needs to let other teams that he has that strong desire to start and be part of a winner. His agent probably told him teams will want to see that fire in order to pay big $$$. Jose want people to know that it is not a given he will just return to Toronto and is open for business. That is smart.

The reason most fans prefer Jose (probably 60/40 or 70/30 split) is because TJ doesn't play smart and looks selfish on the court at times. Jose is more of that Alvin Williams type PG we loved but a much better set-up guy.

I think BC could trade either guy and I am fine with that. Most people will be if we get good pieces in return. I don't fully believe in TJ's supposed 'upside' because I don't know if he can raise his bball IQ enough to become a top level PG, and his physical size (regardless of injury) make him a poor finisher in traffic.

I think both PGs are perfect for a tandem system and may not shine as brightly on their own.

Some lottery teams really don't want their picks. If they end up top 3 Raps could come calling with nice assets to offer.


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

Jose is going to net you much more than T.J. The question is if they want a stud PG, or another great talent somewhere else.


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

> Sources indicate the Raptors will be active on June 26. The Raptors are beginning to shop PG T.J. Ford, according to a league executive.


http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/nba#

Nothing new just confirming what every Raptors fan already knows, the only real new is that this report leads me to believe that the Raptors are looking to move up in the draft by shopping T.J Ford on Draft day


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

Warriors.. shopping... *Monta Ellis*??


if true. perfect fit for toronto as a secondary/slashing scorer


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Monta Ellis would be great for us. He can either start at the SG spot or come off the bench as the 6th man spark plug.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

if they lose on baron, i can't see them throwing away the ellisian one.

don nelson likes ford? 

Ford + 1st + Kapono etc
for
Ellis + Croshere?


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## PDXshelbyGT (May 24, 2007)

I'm a Portland fan, so pardon the "homer" in me....as I find value in the guys I'll propose to trade to Toronto:


We'll send you Martell Webster (who started at the 3 all year - and he's got big upside..and can play shooting guard as well) + Joel Pryzbilla (who would offer TO a true Center against Eastern teams) plus our #13 pick in this year's draft. _And_...we'll also work in Raef LaFrentz (expiring contract) if you guys, in return want to move Rasho and his contract.


RECAP


Webster (3)
Pryzbilla (5)
#13 selection
Raef LaFrentz (4/5) expiring contract

for

Calderon
Rasho


In my "homer" opinion, I think this is a tiny bit lopsided to TO's favour - but I think Portland could be a willing partner in such a trade due to our desire to find a pure point - and I love Calderon's game!


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

PDXshelbyGT said:


> I'm a Portland fan, so pardon the "homer" in me....as I find value in the guys I'll propose to trade to Toronto:
> 
> 
> We'll send you Martell Webster (who started at the 3 all year - and he's got big upside..and can play shooting guard as well) + Joel Pryzbilla (who would offer TO a true Center against Eastern teams) plus our #13 pick in this year's draft. _And_...we'll also work in Raef LaFrentz (expiring contract) if you guys, in return want to move Rasho and his contract.
> ...


It'll pretty much have to start with Outlaw and Przybilla. Webster is a bust and he's another jump shooter that the Raptors have no need for.


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## PDXshelbyGT (May 24, 2007)

seifer0406 said:


> It'll pretty much have to start with Outlaw and Przybilla. Webster is a bust and he's another jump shooter that the Raptors have no need for.


Ok, so here is my counter offer:


Portland send Toronto:

Outlaw + Pryzbilla + LaFrentz (expiring) + our 13th & 36 picks


TO sends Portland:

Calderon, Rasho + your #17 pick


In my opinion, this is a win-win deal. Pull the trigger already! 

(thanks for your reply - let me know how the above counter-offer sounds)


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

PDXshelbyGT said:


> Ok, so here is my counter offer:
> 
> 
> Portland send Toronto:
> ...


Change Calderon for Ford and you have a deal!!!!!!!!!


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## B-Roy (Feb 12, 2008)

billfindlay10 said:


> Change Calderon for Ford and you have a deal!!!!!!!!!


Uh, Portland wants nothing to do with Ford. Ford does not have nearly the value Calderon has.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

B-Roy said:


> Uh, Portland wants nothing to do with Ford. Ford does not have nearly the value Calderon has.


And we want Joel or Webster? That is my point.


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## B-Roy (Feb 12, 2008)

billfindlay10 said:


> And we want Joel or Webster? That is my point.


Joel is a tough defensive center....which is what the Raptors need.

You don't need Webster, but that offer has Outlaw.

Not only does Calderon have more value than Ford, but Portland doesn't want Ford. It's definately not worth what we're offering.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I'd be very tempted by that Calderon deal with Webster, the 13th, and Joel/Raef.

Webster would be money in our system. The kid's jumper is one of the prettiest out there and the guy explodes off the ground. Great size. Young. Has worked under a great mentor in McMillan.

Joel has rounded into a decent center and he's on a reasonable contract. That's not so easy to find. 

The 13th pick is the most important part of the trade. You better have a good player in mind. Is a guy like Joe Alexander going to be worth it? Might Colangelo see a little Marion or even Amare in him? 

Such a trade would certainly improve our athleticism which would in turn allow Sam to get back towards that 100 shots pace that BC and he had invisioned. 

This trade puts a lot of faith in TJ Ford playing like a star with the right kind of players around him. I've long argued that TJ needs to be paired with guys that can catch and finish in the lane or from behind the arc. We're already a great shooting team but we're severely lacking in explosive athleticism. This trade would help fix that. 

Getting a SF at 13 lets us grab a high-potential big that this draft is deep in.

But if BC can get value for TJ, and it sounds like he can, Calderon is going to stay a Raptor. Sorry Blazer fans.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

truth is.

it's HIGHLY unlikely T.O. will be trading Jose Calderon. was it not just stated by BC that he is currently untouchable.. then with the s&t added difficulty.. Ford really is far more likely to be traded, infact probably 90% guaranteed he'll be the one gone...

Ford + Kapono + 17th etc
for
Outlaw + Jack + Pryz + 13th

(contract stipulations, not specifics)

is most likely one of the better offers we could supply, of course if Portland is stuck on the Jose train you never know.

i think it's a better offer then say Mike Miller..


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## B-Roy (Feb 12, 2008)

No. Ford may have value to other teams, but his attitude and spinal injuries are a turn off for Portland. And that is NOT a good trade for Portland. We're giving our depth PLUS a lottery pick for an above average PG who has a bunch of injury issues.

Portland declines, no way we take Ford unless we can get him extremely cheap.

And I'd rather do Outlaw+13 for Miller, than that trade.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

B-Roy said:


> No. Ford may have value to other teams, but his attitude and spinal injuries are a turn off for Portland. And that is NOT a good trade for Portland. We're giving our depth PLUS a lottery pick for an above average PG who has a bunch of injury issues.
> 
> Portland declines, no way we take Ford unless we can get him extremely cheap.
> 
> And I'd rather do Outlaw+13 for Miller, than that trade.


Like the reports are saying. The Raptors now are more likely to trade Ford than to trade Calderon. I would probably do Calderon+17th for Outlaw/Przy and 13th, but I doubt the Raptors do it because they are extremely high on Calderon themselves.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

no way i trade calderon just to trade up a few picks in the draft. gotta have that additional pick. and i prefer webster to outlaw.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

B-Roy said:


> No. Ford may have value to other teams, but his attitude and spinal injuries are a turn off for Portland. And that is NOT a good trade for Portland. We're giving our depth PLUS a lottery pick for an above average PG who has a bunch of injury issues.
> 
> Portland declines, no way we take Ford unless we can get him extremely cheap.
> 
> And I'd rather do Outlaw+13 for Miller, than that trade.


and why would philly trade miller again?


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## B-Roy (Feb 12, 2008)

SkywalkerAC said:


> and why would philly trade miller again?


MIKE MILLER.

Memphis offered MIKE Miller for Outlaw+#13.


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## B-Roy (Feb 12, 2008)

SkywalkerAC said:


> no way i trade calderon just to trade up a few picks in the draft. gotta have that additional pick. and i prefer webster to outlaw.


Webster, Pryzbilla, 13th pick, 36th pick, Raef LaFrentz for Calderon and Rasho.

You guys DO get extra picks. And you wouldn't be just trading up. You get that tough center you need.

I personally think that's a fair value, but Toronto values Calderon WAY too much, so I doubt they'd do it.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

That's a good deal.

Like you said, the people in Toronto loves Calderon. In my opinion they should trade Calderon instead of Ford as well since he can net us more pieces. The team we have now have too many holes that need to fill and trading Ford will not be able to cover our needs.


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## PDXshelbyGT (May 24, 2007)

seifer0406 said:


> That's a good deal.
> 
> Like you said, the people in Toronto loves Calderon. In my opinion they should trade Calderon instead of Ford as well since he can net us more pieces. The team we have now have too many holes that need to fill and trading Ford will not be able to cover our needs.



Guys - B Roy and myself both think Calderon would be a perfect fit in Portland. We're not saying he's not the pefect fit in Toronto! But we have some pieces to your puzzle and you have a piece for ours. This is why trades are made, Memphis/Lakers the exception :lol:


I have been going back and forth from Portland, Oregon to Vancouver, BC over the past eight years - and recently married a Canuck and have moved to the burbs of Vancouver (last summer actually). I even bought season tickets to the Blazers last season and would drive down to Portland to catch as many games as I could. In the Vancouver area, Shaw cable doesn't have NBA League Pass - so I ordered NBA TV/ Raptors Channel. Between going back and forth to Portland, I was able to watch several Raptors game during the season. Fun team! Ford's injury was terrible and I hope that he can come back at full strenth. If if he does, he's not the PG Portland needs along side Roy/Aldridge/Oden. Calderon would be however!

I myslef want to keep Outlaw - and I believe that Webster would make a great addition to your fast-pace game. The boy can shoot - and he's a leaper when he take it to the hole. 

I do believe that (after watching around 15 - 20 Raptors games) a true center would benefit the team. Joel Pryzbilla is a very solid center with a great contract. And if you take on LaFrentz' expiring - you have options next year (but you'd have to give up Rasho's smaller expiring in return to make this work).

I think a trade of Webster + Pryzbilla + Portland's #13 pick + LaFrentz' expiring

for

Calderon + Rasho + TO's #17 has some merit.


But in my humble opinion, if you can move Ford for something worthwhile - I'd suggest doing that!


Let's see what Ford brings....and if it is not as valuable as BC is letting on - then consider our trade proposal!


(hey, its only between us fans anyhow!) eace:


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Often times GMs overvalues their players and miss out on opportunities to improve the team. We've seen it with Chicago and I think there is a good possibility that we'll see that with Calderon as well. Personally I would take the Webster/Przy/13th for Calderon, but knowing how much Colangelo values Calderon, it will likely take a much better offer (Outlaw/Przy/13th perhaps) for the deal to happen.

But then again, us fans don't know what is the exact situation with Ford. Reports are surfacing that there are many teams interested in him. If the Raptors can find a decent to good deal with Ford they should make that their first priority. If they can only find deals that shed salary only then I think it is better for them to trade Calderon instead.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

And one more thing regarding Ford, I actually think he will fit Portland better than some of you think he will. His "attitude" problem is magnified by the Toronto media because of the supposed competition of the starting PG job. Other than this one blemish in his personality, he really doesn't have any significant incidents that would suggest that he would bring chemistry problems to any team. His teammates (even Calderon) have nothing but good things to say about Ford either in front of the media or in Calderon's case(and Bosh), in their personal blogs. Our coach loves him to the point where fans criticize the coach for not being fair for Calderon. The point I'm trying to make is he isn't someone that will be detrimental to the team and "attitude" should not be a concern for a team interested in Ford.

Basketball wise, Ford's court vision is arguably better than Calderon and he has the speed to stay with pretty much anybody on the defensive end. On a team with as much offensive weapons as the Blazers, Ford would thrive running the team in my opinion. The one obvious problem is his injury risk. But then again, the cost of getting Ford is a lot cheaper than Calderon. He is a high risk high reward player and it's up to teams to decide whether they want to take that risk.


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## PDXshelbyGT (May 24, 2007)

seifer0406 said:


> And one more thing regarding Ford, I actually think he will fit Portland better than some of you think he will. His "attitude" problem is magnified by the Toronto media because of the supposed competition of the starting PG job. Other than this one blemish in his personality, he really doesn't have any significant incidents that would suggest that he would bring chemistry problems to any team. His teammates (even Calderon) have nothing but good things to say about Ford either in front of the media or in Calderon's case(and Bosh), in their personal blogs. Our coach loves him to the point where fans criticize the coach for not being fair for Calderon. The point I'm trying to make is he isn't someone that will be detrimental to the team and "attitude" should not be a concern for a team interested in Ford.
> 
> Basketball wise, Ford's court vision is arguably better than Calderon and he has the speed to stay with pretty much anybody on the defensive end. On a team with as much offensive weapons as the Blazers, Ford would thrive running the team in my opinion. The one obvious problem is his injury risk. But then again, the cost of getting Ford is a lot cheaper than Calderon. He is a high risk high reward player and it's up to teams to decide whether they want to take that risk.



Interesting take on Ford! I'm sure the Toronto media plays a big role in exploding minor issues. I just really like Calderon! I think he's a Steve Nash -style player.

With Brandon Roy - who handles the ball quite a bit, I think he and Calderon would be a better backcourt combination than Roy & Ford. Just my opinion.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Let's not forget that MIL was more than happy to unload Ford. Colangelo was not even asking about him and MIL threw his name into the mix. There were issues there not related to his spine. Which is why he was not finishing games there at times.

And I love the slant taken on 'has the speed to stay with anyone on D'. True, but he doesn't use it, so what is the diff. He gets beat as often as most other PG in the league and his lack of size/strength see him overpowered a lot by bigger guards and limit his own ability to finish in the paint.

And its hard to credit his court vision when he makes so many dumb decisions with the ball. The mental side of his game is weak.

He is still a very good starting PG in the league, but clearly 2nd tier, which is also true of Jose.

Ford reminds me of a Stephon Marbury in some ways, though physically smaller and weaker.


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

^^good marbary comparison..


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> Let's not forget that MIL was more than happy to unload Ford. Colangelo was not even asking about him and MIL threw his name into the mix. There were issues there not related to his spine. Which is why he was not finishing games there at times.
> 
> And I love the slant taken on 'has the speed to stay with anyone on D'. True, but he doesn't use it, so what is the diff. He gets beat as often as most other PG in the league and his lack of size/strength see him overpowered a lot by bigger guards and limit his own ability to finish in the paint.
> 
> ...


And Milwaukee clearly made a mistake in unloading Ford in favor of Mo Williams, not to mention both the GM that made the decision and the coach at the time are both unemployed right now. It's hard to take anything that happened in Milwaukee without a grain of salt since they are such a dysfunctional franchise. From an outsider's view point, it just seems like Ford lost his starting job due to being out for more than a year. It's pretty hard to blame it on anything more when the team was clearly a mess.

I don't know what you're talking about regarding his defense. He does do a way better job than Calderon at staying in front of quicker guards. You're not going to mistake Ford for Chris Paul, but as far as guarding quick guards, Ford is above average and he certainly holds his own against pretty much any quick PG in the league. He does get punished by bigger guards ala Chauncey Billups, but the Blazers have shotblockers inside that can cover him much better than the Raptors can.

As for his decision making, you have seen his improvement this year when he averaged a career best 2 TO a game. He is not amongst the best PGs in the league but he is above average, and that's what most people consider him to be.

If Marbury doesn't have mental issues he's a pretty damn good player. You're talking about someone who didn't want to share the court with KG after his rookie contract was up. A bit of a stretch to link that with Ford who simply wanted to be a starter. I don't see the comparison though basketballwise. Marbury has always been a scoring guard and is a way better scorer because his size and athleticism allows him to do some things that Ford can't even dream of doing. Ford does shoot too much sometimes but for the most part he has been considered as a pass first PG, something that Marbury has never been.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

it seems to be the same thing every offseason, and i don't know if that's a good or bad thing when it comes to tj ford: injury-prone players get overvalued. if you look around the league, the players more often bandied about in trades are stars in suits. in this thread, we have two of them: joel przybilla and tj ford. of course, toronto fans want to trade tj ford and land someone other than przybilla, while portland fans want to trade przybilla to get someone back other than tj ford (in this case jose calderon). coincidence?

it's convenient to do this in the offseason since nobody has any injuries to speak of and so managers can do a decent sales job by focusing squarely on talent- "ford's fast" or "joel can block shots"- but at the end of the day, the fact is that this game is not played on paper in the summer, injuries are indeed relevant. when it comes to tj ford, joel przybilla or anyone similar, imo, i wouldn't touch them with a flagpole myself. it doesn't matter how good they are when they play- because they don't play.

we compare jose and tj forever already, we can compare joel/nene/okafor and bogut, for example, but imo we waste our time comparing their skillsets. in many of these arguments, we know who we prefer already- and it has nothing to do with skill. at least in my world, it has to do with durability. tj ford is not durable, joel przybilla is not durable; to expect that to change overnight is like expecting time to start moving backwards. it may happen, and it would help if it did... but it probably won't.

i do hope we can move ford for an ac green-type, though. 

peace


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## B-Roy (Feb 12, 2008)

ballocks said:


> it seems to be the same thing every offseason, and i don't know if that's a good or bad thing when it comes to tj ford: injury-prone players get overvalued. if you look around the league, the players more often bandied about in trades are stars in suits. in this thread, we have two of them: joel przybilla and tj ford. of course, toronto fans want to trade tj ford and land someone other than przybilla, while portland fans want to trade przybilla to get someone back other than tj ford (in this case jose calderon). coincidence?
> 
> it's convenient to do this in the offseason since nobody has any injuries to speak of and so managers can do a decent sales job by focusing squarely on talent- "ford's fast" or "joel can block shots"- but at the end of the day, the fact is that this game is not played on paper in the summer, injuries are indeed relevant. when it comes to tj ford, joel przybilla or anyone similar, imo, i wouldn't touch them with a flagpole myself. it doesn't matter how good they are when they play- because they don't play.
> 
> ...


Portland does not "want" to trade Przybilla. It's just they're willing to offer him in order to get Calderon. Also, he's coming off one of his best seasons, missing only the last 5 games because of a broken hand. Yes, it's true that he's not very durable, but he's not even the centerpiece of a PDX/TOR trade.

Just to be sure though, I'm not trying to pursuade you to trade Calderon, because I don't think Toronto will.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

for a Calderon to Portland transaction to work IMO

the deal should/would not include toronto also giving up the 17th.

personally, i'd do a Calderon(s&t) + Rasho for Outlaw, Pryz (Raef expiring) & the 13th. can you even complete a sign & trade with a multi-player deal?

but for an almost borderline all-star point, who really will most likely not be traded, it's really hard to think about.


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## B-Roy (Feb 12, 2008)

southeasy said:


> for a Calderon to Portland transaction to work IMO
> 
> the deal should/would not include toronto also giving up the 17th.
> 
> ...


I would do that if I were GM of Portland.

But I imagine some variant of that trade has already been proposed by Portland and turned down by Toronto.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

southeasy said:


> for a Calderon to Portland transaction to work IMO
> 
> the deal should/would not include toronto also giving up the 17th.
> 
> ...


That won't happen fo several reasons. A) Jose is not moving and if he was there would have to be one of three players on portland coming back that don't need mentioning. The least valuable of those is redundant to Bosh.

B) If BC is going to get a pick it will be in the top half of the lottery

C) This is a lateral move. BC wants to use expiring deals and picks to consolidate talent. This would give you a good not great swing, the most common commodity/position in the league and on the team. It would swap expiring deals and give you an OK big.

BC is not shooting for OK/mediocre/common. He has his allstar 4, his near allstar 1 all other pieces will be leveraged to get that 3rd virtual all star.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

oh i'm aware calderon will not be traded, & have stated so multiple times. i was just humoring the portland fans inquiring about it.

i also don't like trading a point guard who is arguably top 5 at his position for anything else other then another top 5(10) player @ his respective position


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

PDXshelbyGT said:


> Guys - B Roy and myself both think Calderon would be a perfect fit in Portland. We're not saying he's not the pefect fit in Toronto! But we have some pieces to your puzzle and you have a piece for ours. This is why trades are made, Memphis/Lakers the exception :lol:
> 
> 
> I have been going back and forth from Portland, Oregon to Vancouver, BC over the past eight years - and recently married a Canuck and have moved to the burbs of Vancouver (last summer actually). I even bought season tickets to the Blazers last season and would drive down to Portland to catch as many games as I could. In the Vancouver area, Shaw cable doesn't have NBA League Pass - so I ordered NBA TV/ Raptors Channel. Between going back and forth to Portland, I was able to watch several Raptors game during the season. Fun team! Ford's injury was terrible and I hope that he can come back at full strenth. If if he does, he's not the PG Portland needs along side Roy/Aldridge/Oden. Calderon would be however!
> ...


It doesnt matter if you convince the posters on this board (which you would never do with your lame trade proposals) Calderon isn't getting traded. 
PS, the way you propose trades for star players for portlands spare parts is really annoying. I'm sick of hearing about outlaw/webster prysbillas expiring contract +32 pick for star players like prince +billups, and calderon. No FA's want to come to TO, so the cap room wouldn't mean ****. Why don't you propose some trades involving Roy or Oden? ***


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

Yea, just ignore him/her.

It seems like we on the Portland message board have a lot of people who enjoy making unfair trade proposals where we trade backup players for all-star level starters.

MOst of us understand that Calderon won't be traded, and we've let it go. And i highly doubt we are interested in Ford, lol.



> Why don't you propose some trades involving Roy or Oden?


i think you can answer this one.

Good luck on your team. I like Bosh and Calderon as the core of your team right now. A couple of moves and you guys are set. Probably a nice SG/SF, as you guys probably have most/all your role players in place.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Hoops hype has a bunch of links to stories that say there are 5-6 teams seriously looking at trading for Ford. It is also restated, barring a blockbuster type deal, that Jose will not be traded.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

billfindlay10 said:


> Hoops hype has a bunch of links to stories that say there are 5-6 teams seriously looking at trading for Ford. It is also restated, barring a blockbuster type deal, that Jose will not be traded.


Slightly off topic but i find it funny that Ford will get traded this offseason and more than likely the Bucks will trade CV. That trade really didnt work out that great for either of us now did it, although you have Calderon so its obvious why you would be looking to trade Ford. After witnessing first hand how delicate he is and how easily his next game could be his last now would be the perfect time to get rid of him capitalizing on teams desperate for a PG. eace:


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

this talk about ford's contract insurance is good news. i didn't know about it before. if his team is truly _fully_ insured in the event of injury, that should avoid a major obstacle on the road to trading him. 

at the end of the day, he's only an $8.5 million risk against the cap- not the payroll. that's a big difference. i'm sure there are more than enough teams willing to take on his deal now, whether he's injury-prone or not.

i might even consider keeping him if it were true. i was never a fan of the $17 million position (assuming jose gets $8.5 as well) if one of the two players was injury-prone. that was my problem. but in tj's case, it would only amount to ~$17 million if he were _playing_, which wouldn't seem that expensive anymore because when he's playing, he's pretty good. 

peace


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

have we talked about atlanta? they picked up bibby this year but i don't think he's a long-term solution for them. they could also use a shooter--seems like jj is their only outside threat (well, bibby, too)--and a vet bigman to team up with horford and smith.

this passes the espn trade machine:

to atlanta: tj.ford, rasho, kapono
to toronto: bibby, marvin williams

the hawks answer a lot of their problems while still having a big ending contract to give them leeway to retain smith and childress. toronto picks up a young stud wing in marvin and gets some pg protection in case roko isn't ready and even a just-in-case jose is lost as well as a big expiring contract. bibby should even be able to play some off guard.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Can we swap Marvin with Horford in the deal instead? I'd be all up for that.

Perhaps the Hawks aren't willing to give up somebody that can finally play the 5 for them.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Perhaps...

Ford + Rasho + Kapono + Humphries

Bibby + Horford

Hell, give em our first pick if they want.


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

i think horford's pretty much the last guy they move. 

another idea i don't think many people have considered: tj for morrison and felton. we get a pretty good pg back and have a chance to rehabilitate a wing that came into the league with a lot of promise. morrison doesn't answer the athleticism that's been talked about, he may even make it more pronounced, but he does still have potential to be a successful scorer and he has a fire we lack.

tj
richardson
wallace
may
okafor

coached by larry brown and with a top-10 draft pick, that's a pretty good team.


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## a_i_4_life (Dec 24, 2004)

mo76 said:


> It doesnt matter if you convince the posters on this board (which you would never do with your lame trade proposals) Calderon isn't getting traded.
> PS, the way you propose trades for star players for portlands spare parts is really annoying. I'm sick of hearing about outlaw/webster prysbillas expiring contract +32 pick for star players like prince +billups, and calderon. No FA's want to come to TO, so the cap room wouldn't mean ****. Why don't you propose some trades involving Roy or Oden? ***


thank you! finally someone that understands


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

spuriousjones said:


> i think horford's pretty much the last guy they move.
> 
> another idea i don't think many people have considered: tj for morrison and felton. we get a pretty good pg back and have a chance to rehabilitate a wing that came into the league with a lot of promise. morrison doesn't answer the athleticism that's been talked about, he may even make it more pronounced, but he does still have potential to be a successful scorer and he has a fire we lack.
> 
> ...



God no. I'd rather have a mars bar.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

when it comes to tj ford, i think it bears repeating: if this guy couldn't make it work with a backup like jose calderon, i have serious doubts he'll ever make it work- anywhere. because the fact is, if he needs a backup who's a clear backup (not a mo williams or jose calderon type), that team will never compete because, imo, no team can afford to have tj ford without having someone behind him as a safety net for tj's injury concerns. 

if i were tj ford, i'd tell myself the same thing, "maybe it's not them- maybe it's me." i think tj's a nice guy and all but i think his priorities are a little out of whack, and the longer he goes without helping himself the worse it'll get. i think tj's been lucky to have a capable backup behind him since being drafted- it'll get messy now if he goes to a team that doesn't have one.

i could see these teams making a play for tj ford:

houston
seattle
charlotte
orlando
lakers
new york
new orleans
just kidding
cleveland
portland
denver
washington

if he doesn't go to one of those teams, i'll be... wrong.

peace


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## spuriousjones (Apr 24, 2004)

aside from tj going to new york, the deal that makes the most sense to me is tj to the clipps for mobley and their pick. la gets its starting pg, actually save some money the next couple years (goes a long way to negating the risk associated with tj), and get can hold onto maggette while creating a starting spot for thorton. 

tj
maggette
thorton
brand
kaman

that's pretty sweet.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

Mobley is a good player, Old but good.

i'd be all down for that with the pick involved.

we could grab (Eric Gordon, Randolph, Russell Westbrook or Alexander) @ 7, then @ 17 (CDR, Batum,Hibbert,Darrell Arthur, Speights, McGee)

Calderon/Ukic/(Westbrook w/7?)
Parker/Mobley/(Eric Gordon, CDR w/7?17?)
Moon/Kapono/(Alexander, Randolph, Batum w/7?17?)
Bosh/Humphries/(Darell Arthur, Speights w/17?)
Bargnani/Rasho/(Hibbert, McGee w/17?)

crazy options,. i'd make a deal.

even with the Pacers @ 11 makes sense to me. Marquis Daniels=Mobley + 11th for Ford, give or take, another deal i might make.


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