# Telfair's Cleveland workout



## 22ryno (Mar 17, 2003)

What happened? This is an important workout because if it went good and having the support of the franchise player their pick could be Sebastian Telfair.


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## Dakota (Aug 18, 2002)

I really doubt that the Cavaliers are going to risk taking Sebastian at the #10 spot as of now. He is getting bad reviews, but that is good news for other teams. I would gladly take Sebastian at #20, or #25, or wherever he slips too. He is going to be one special player. I think that Cleveland should trade down to #16 or #17 and pick Sebastian then. They will take him too early if they select him at #10.


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## Real McCoy (Oct 17, 2003)

This is not the NFL draft. If you see a player you want, you have to draft him. If one guy fits your team and you feel he is the best player for you (best player available is very subjective), then you take him. 

If the Cavs want Telfair, then they should not dick around and try to trade down. Just take him at 10 and improve your team thru FA.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Where are these negative reviews coming from? I heard bad stuff about JR Smith, but I thought Telfair supposedly did well against Nelson for the Clippers?

Or does negative reviews just refer to the Vescey article and Jay Bilas?

Has anyone heard how this workout went, yet?


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

I'm also wondering if these comments are planned and some sort of scheme. Despite Teflair holding his own with Nelson and Duhon, now we are hearing Telfair is losing steam. Then we hear overexaggerated claims that Okafor will virtually be a crippled man and move around like a senior citizen. I understand people being concerned about certain players but lately some of the stuff I've been hearing is too ridiculous to believe.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I think what happens is that one guy makes one report that may or may not be based upon first hand info, and then some reads that and then reports on that report, and then eventually you have a cascade of stories which are really all just the same one first story, but because there are 12-13 of them it looks bigger than it is...

And when you're dealing with Telfair who has a big ol' train of hype, anything that isn't the highest of praise is going to be turned as a catastrophe.

The only things I've heard specifically about workouts have been good. His defense on Nelson wasn't great, which is typical for high schoolers, but his offense was supposedly very good and he shot well.

I also read on a message board today, someone mentioned offhand that he really did quite well in the workout for the Cavs, but I haven't heard anything beyond that.

It's amazing how much negative hype there is around this kid right now. Things that sound just the complete opposite from the positive hype...

To hear some people talk Telfair is a slow midget who doesn't even belong in division 1 basketball let alone NBA Basketball.


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## Dakota (Aug 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by *futuristxen*!
> Or does negative reviews just refer to the Vescey article and Jay Bilas?


I think this is the case. Unfortunately, I think opinions are taken with too high regard, and sometimes the comments they express aren't really based on real solid facts. Jay Bilas says one opinion about a player, and then that player plummets significantly on mock drafts. That's how it goes. I hate how that is, but it has been like that for awhile now.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Real McCoy</b>!
> This is not the NFL draft. If you see a player you want, you have to draft him. If one guy fits your team and you feel he is the best player for you (best player available is very subjective), then you take him.
> 
> If the Cavs want Telfair, then they should not dick around and try to trade down. Just take him at 10 and improve your team thru FA.


That is not true at all, if you can get an extra second rounder, or a vet for trading down and still get your man, you take the trade in a second.


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## AdamIllman (May 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nimreitz</b>!
> 
> 
> That is not true at all, if you can get an extra second rounder, or a vet for trading down and still get your man, you take the trade in a second.


you do but you have to be very careful that you don't let the targetted player slip away


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## IAMGREAT (May 22, 2003)

I too have become suspicious of the lack of info about Telfair's workouts as well as the negative reviews. I mean if he's performed badly in the workouts, then how come we haven't really seen an in depth evaluation of his workouts? If he really did perform badly, then why wouldn't they have any reports? Wouldn't it confirm what so many "experts" have been saying? It seems to me that teams are not commenting because they don't want anybody to get high on him and take him away. I'm sure Bassy more than held his own against anybody. I've watched him play far too many times to think otherwise.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IAMGREAT</b>!
> I too have become suspicious of the lack of info about Telfair's workouts as well as the negative reviews. I mean if he's performed badly in the workouts, then how come we haven't really seen an in depth evaluation of his workouts? *If he really did perform badly, then why wouldn't they have any reports? Wouldn't it confirm what so many "experts" have been saying? It seems to me that teams are not commenting because they don't want anybody to get high on him and take him away.* I'm sure Bassy more than held his own against anybody. I've watched him play far too many times to think otherwise.


Good post. You nailed it on the head there. It seems like a tactic of saying "He's awful, he's overhyped, he's 3-4 years away from running a team." You hear that talk and then you pass on the kid. Then the team who had the scouts/experts dog the kid out, go on to select the guy. It would puzzle you and you'd want to ask that team "If he's so awful, why did you draft him," and they just flash a sly smile because they hustled you.


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## Jockrider (Jun 25, 2003)

Come on Telfair is not even 5 foot tall and should be playing in a midget league.


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## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jockrider</b>!
> Come on Telfair is not even 5 foot tall and should be playing in a midget league.


LLLOLLLLLLL

But dat sixth graders got game!! Best midget ive seen since mighty mouse.


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## thefuture2 (May 2, 2004)

I don't know where the bad reviews are coming from. I heard he ate Jameer Nelson up at the Clippers workout and alot of people are pretty high on Nelson. I also heard he gave Duhon trouble as well. Duhon's from Duke, and everyone knows that if you come out of Duke, you can play D. Sounds good to me. If I'm the Cavs, I trade Wagner and my 1st rounder to New Orleans for their pick and Steve Smith (shooter that CLE needs)

Jockrider-
where do you get off saying this? The kid can play ball, so could Muggsy Bogues, Spud Webb, and Earl Boykins still contributes to the Nuggets. 

Nimreitz-
Cleveland doesn't have a 2nd rounder in the first place.


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

telfair is going to be a great player if taken by a team like cleveland. Him and lebron would be the best YOUNG backcourt in the leauge in as early as next year! telfair is a player with poise and guts that every team wishes they could have! unfortunately for them there is only ONE sebastian telfair.


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

If Telfair slips to 24 Boston will take him. They may even take him at 15.

It would not be a great move for Boston as they already have a good young point but Ainge loves Telfair.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>thefuture2</b>!
> If I'm the Cavs, I trade Wagner and my 1st rounder to New Orleans for their pick and Steve Smith (shooter that CLE needs)


Initially I thought that you and I were both Cavs fans but just had differing opinions on what direction that the Cavs should go. Now I'm starting to think that you don't even have the Cavs best intentions in mind. No way would I trade Wagner and trade down in the first for Smith. Maybe 5 years ago, but not now. More than just needing a 3 point shooter the Cavs need one that is worthy of starting, which I do not believe is the case with yr old Steve Smith.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Trading Wagner would be a mistake and Steve Smith is on his last legs and is a FA.


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## bselig (May 27, 2004)

*the odds are stacked against telfar...*

How Sebastian Telfair works out isn't really relevant to his chances at succeeding in the NBA. I've seen Telfar play. He is, at the tallest, 5'11". What does that mean? It means there is an extremely low chance of him being a star in the NBA. Could he start in this league at that height? Sure. Will he make an allstar team? No, probably not. Is this the type of player that a team with a top ten pick should be looking to acquire? Of course not. Is Telfair worth taking over some of the giant big men who are destined to be NBA scrubs if they manage to stick in the league? Sure. The bottom line is that Telfair should not be talked about in the same breath as players who have a decent chance at being star players - ie, those players that teams will go after with the top ten or top fifteen picks. This guy has an extremely low chance of being a special player in the pros. Start thinking about him after pick 15.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Yeah I am sure all of these Euro stiffs are going to be better than Telfair. 

I look at the demographics of the All-Star game and think he will be fine, if he proves he can run a pro offense (I don't see any reason why he wouldnt.)


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## bselig (May 27, 2004)

Hong Kong *EDIT*:

Yea, I shouldn't have used the term 'giant big men,' that seems to only refer to Podkolzine sized players. Telfair should have a solid shot at being better than a bunch of these 7'2" or so *EDIT*. But there's still a comically low chance he'll be a star player, so teams shouldn't expend a top pick on him, if possible.

*Keep it clean - - PV*:


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bselig</b>!
> Hong Kong *EDIT*:
> 
> Yea, I shouldn't have used the term 'giant big men,' that seems to only refer to Podkolzine sized players. Telfair should have a solid shot at being better than a bunch of these 7'2" or so *EDIT*. But there's still a comically low chance he'll be a star player, so teams shouldn't expend a top pick on him, if possible.
> ...


Hmmm... you called me a **** and said Eurofags, I take it you don't expect to be around here very long. 

Hope you enjoy the vacation you should be getting from this site. Have you seen the all-star game? Telfair has the same kind of game Stockton did and you make it seem like there is no way Telfair could grow taller. Marbury was 6'0 coming out of HS and ended up 6'2 (close to 6'3). Don't speak with such a sharp tongue, as you might get it slapped off.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bselig</b>!
> Hong Kong *EDIT*:
> 
> Yea, I shouldn't have used the term 'giant big men,' that seems to only refer to Podkolzine sized players. Telfair should have a solid shot at being better than a bunch of these 7'2" or so *EDIT*. But there's still a comically low chance he'll be a star player, so teams shouldn't expend a top pick on him, if possible.
> ...


This language is really necessary to discuss basketball.


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## bselig (May 27, 2004)

Nope...just PSL games. Now, if Telfair was two or three inches taller, he'd be a much, much better prospect. The shorter the player is, the more important height is. But he isn't. Doctors can generally tell you if you are likely to continue growing, so I'm sure NBA teams will have that info at hand. The taller the player is, the less important extra height is. For example, if Yao Ming were two inches taller, he'd be better, but not that much better. Buf if Damon Stoudamire were two inches taller, he'd be MUCH better. As it stands, Telfair is a midget. His talent should give him a shot to be a starter in the NBA. Does he have enough talent to overcome his physical deficiencies and be a star player in the pros? Highly unlikely. Possible? Sure. But unlikely enough to warrant using a top pick on a player who has a better chance at becoming a star basketball player.

Now, I hope your Telfair-Marbury comparison ends at potential-to-grow-a-few-inches-after-high-school stage, because thats about as far as it should go.


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## Jockrider (Jun 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thefuture2</b>!
> I don't know where the bad reviews are coming from. I heard he ate Jameer Nelson up at the Clippers workout and alot of people are pretty high on Nelson. I also heard he gave Duhon trouble as well. Duhon's from Duke, and everyone knows that if you come out of Duke, you can play D. Sounds good to me. If I'm the Cavs, I trade Wagner and my 1st rounder to New Orleans for their pick and Steve Smith (shooter that CLE needs)
> 
> Jockrider-
> ...


I was being sarcastic. 

As far as talent goes, he was tore up by Jameer Nelson at the Utah workout, so I doubt your assertion on the Clippers workout. Also considering your trade proposal I would think you are not very smart, basketball wise anyway.


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## Jockrider (Jun 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Yeah I am sure all of these Euro stiffs are going to be better than Telfair.
> 
> I look at the demographics of the All-Star game and think he will be fine, if he proves he can run a pro offense (I don't see any reason why he wouldnt.)


No need for your racism on this board. If you want to be banned then keep it up.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jockrider</b>!
> No need for your racism on this board. If you want to be banned then keep it up.


Oh okay, thanks for the tip.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bselig</b>!
> Hong Kong *EDIT*:
> 
> Yea, I shouldn't have used the term 'giant big men,' that seems to only refer to Podkolzine sized players. Telfair should have a solid shot at being better than a bunch of these 7'2" or so *EDIT*. But there's still a comically low chance he'll be a star player, so teams shouldn't expend a top pick on him, if possible.
> ...


I hope you have homosexual childeren you intolerant *******.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jockrider</b>!
> I was being sarcastic.
> 
> As far as talent goes, he was tore up by Jameer Nelson at the Utah workout, so I doubt your assertion on the Clippers workout. Also considering your trade proposal I would think you are not very smart, basketball wise anyway.


*
For the love of crap can someone confirm whether or not he ate up Jameer or Jameer owned him at their clippers workout??*

According to scouts Jameer is the player Telfair should become, and surpass so let's find out.


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## Casual (Jun 2, 2003)

I don't think Telfair's height will be much of a problem. The team that drafts him will be looking for an assist man, not a scorer (if they're smart) and he won't be expected to contribute heavily to the point total for a few yers.


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>thefuture2</b>!
> If I'm the Cavs, I trade Wagner and my 1st rounder to New Orleans for their pick and Steve Smith (shooter that CLE needs)


Alright, thefuture2... that is a new idea that has some merit to it... at least it isn't a rehash of Jamison for Z crap. Does it work in trade checker? Good post.

Oops... when I first read this, I was thinking Clev was trading with the Charlotte expansion team, and we'd be moving UP to the 4rth spot... but giving up Wagner AND moving down to the 18th? No way. Unless you meant to say Char instead of NO?


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Casual</b>!
> I don't think Telfair's height will be much of a problem. The team that drafts him will be looking for an assist man, not a scorer (if they're smart) and he won't be expected to contribute heavily to the point total for a few yers.


I think it is funny that people say that Telfair's height is going to be a problem then say Nelson is going to get drafted before him. Telfair is bigger than Nelson.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

A 5-11 point guard is not grossly undersized. It's like a 6-8 power forward. Or a 6-5 shooting guard. It's just an inch or two away from average size for the position.

Allen Iverson has been successfull playing Shooting guard at a listed height of 6-0.

Earl Boykins is 5-6 and no one takes advantage of his size on the court. He takes advantage of them.

Mugsy Bogues was a terrific player at 5-3.
Charles Barkley was a 6-4 power forward.

Height doesn't matter nearly as much as Heart. If Telfair has the heart and wants to succeed, then he will, no matter what he measures out at.


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## soopahpit (Jun 1, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> 
> 
> I think it is funny that people say that Telfair's height is going to be a problem then say Nelson is going to get drafted before him. Telfair is bigger than Nelson.


youre kidding me. You think Nelson isn't criticized for his lack of height? You think dropping his draft stock all the way out of the lottery isn't suitable punishment for his size considering he was the BEST player in college?

Don't kid yourself, Telfair wasn't even the best player (barely in the top 5) in high school. Considering his lack of experience coming into a position where experience is at a premium, his lack of a consistant shot, and poor defense, he's lucky to go in the first round at all. If he weren't from NYC, he'd be at school for 2+ years.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

My thinking on Telfair has always been this. If Mateen Cleaves, Todd Fuller and Trajan Langdon can be drafted in the first 15 picks, than there is no reason why Telfair can't be.

It also seems like if you get any information (whether from articles or word of mouth) that you should believe the opposite. I will use that as my thought process for now, until the Chicago camp in 10 days.


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## 22ryno (Mar 17, 2003)

I am sick of people saying Telfair's height will be a problem. The Clippers stated Telfair was a little taller than Nelson. Nelson was measured last year at 6'0" even with shoes on. So lets estimated Telfair is 6'1" with shoes on. Is that too short. So where is everyone getting this 5'10" crap. This kid is going to be a helluva player. You people need to quit hatin.


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## Starbury03 (Aug 12, 2003)

Stockton was around the same size.


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## Jockrider (Jun 25, 2003)

telfair must have grown overnight because in Utah he was shorter than Nelson and Duhon. Telfair is 5' 11", Nelson was 6' 0", and Duhon was 6' 2".


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

This is exactly why you can't believe anything you are hearing about a guy like Telfair, who has hype machines working him positively and negatively at the same time...

We can't even effectively nail down whether he was taller or shorter than Nelson...one guy heard one thing, another another.

I don't think anyone is going to have a good handle on where Telfair is going to go in this draft.


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## 22ryno (Mar 17, 2003)

Here it is. It said Telfair looked taller

It appeared that one question could be the point guards' size. Telfair is listed as 5-foot-11, and Nelson is listed as 6-feet. However, Telfair appeared a smidgen taller.

http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,200~29583~2164158,00.html


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## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

Just wait till the Chicago pre-draft camp...


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## Jockrider (Jun 25, 2003)

"I don't feel any spotlight on me," said the 18-year-old, flanked by his biographer and reporters. "*It's the NBA, yo*. I'm at the bottom of the barrel. I'm not even in the NBA yet."

Nice, he already knows the language. :laugh:


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## bselig (May 27, 2004)

I don't think you guys understand something. Telfair's height won't be a problem in terms of making him unable to play his position. He can play the point at 5'11" (tops). Thats not an issue. The issue is, what are the chances that a 5'11" pg turns into a star player, the type of player that warrants a high draft pick? The chances are low. Very low. He might turn into a capable starting point, yea. But do you pass over someone who has a much greater shot to be a perrennial allstar for someone who has almost no shot to be a perrennial allstar? No, of course not. Telfair's lack of height doesn't prevent him from playing the point. It caps the likelihood of him shining there. And Jameer Nelson is in the exact same boat.

Now, don't compare guys to anamolies at their positions. If there is a 6'4" power forward out there, please, please do not compare him to Charles Barkley. There was only one Charles Barkley (well, maybe there were a couple of others, but I can't think of any off the top of my head). When there is ONE star player of that mold at that position, you don't go saying "this prospect can be just as good as he was." Can he? Sure. Is it likely? Of course not. Its absurdly unlikely.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Jameer Nelson looks definately at least an inch taller but that is not it.

Jameer is A LOT stronger too.

If Telfair tries to go to the basket he will get crushed in his rookie season.


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## bselig (May 27, 2004)

This last post is good. Even though Telfair and Nelson will face some of the same challenges, Nelson's greater athleticism, strength, and explosiveness might give him a better shot at breaking out of the typical midget mediocrity and achieving star player status, ala Tim Hardaway (similar bodies, similar handles, similar propensity to shoot the basketball and score it). I can't say I'm expecting Nelson to be an allstar, but its hard not to like him more than Telfair.


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## 22ryno (Mar 17, 2003)

Nelson is not more explosive or athletic than Telfair. This thing he has on him is strength. In their workout with the Clipps Telfair couldn't handle Nelson strength while Nelson couldn't handle Telfair's quick moves. They both will be good players but Telfair has more upside. Telfair could possibly grow more and will definitely fill out. One question Telfair has gone out and worked out against Nelson, Burks, and Duhon. He has held his own or bettered all of them. Why is he getting question marks when Shaun Livingston seems to be ducking anyone. I haven't heard one thing about him working out against competion. Yet everyone wants to critique Telfair's game. What about his?


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## bselig (May 27, 2004)

No one is critiquing Telfair's game (well, maybe some are). They are just acknowledging what he is. An extremely short player. When you get your MD, do a physical on Telfair, come back here and THEN tell us that he'll grow. Until then, he is 5 foot 11 TOPS, and has a shockingly small chance to develop into a star player. There is something called reality. Try it, and stop living in your Sebastian Telfair *Keep it clean - PV*


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bselig</b>!
> No one is critiquing Telfair's game (well, maybe some are). They are just acknowledging what he is. An extremely short player. When you get your MD, do a physical on Telfair, come back here and THEN tell us that he'll grow. Until then, he is 5 foot 11 TOPS, and has a shockingly small chance to develop into a star player. There is something called reality. Try it, and stop living in your Sebastian Telfair *Keep it clean - PV*


again. 5-11 is not shockingly small for a point guard.

There are enough players who have been a little undersized who have succeeded and become stars that your point no matter how vulgar you express it, has no real merit.

Your contention is that because Telfair is 5-11 and not 6-0...something that we don't even know for sure yet...that because of that one inch he will not be a star. That's a preposterously weak arguement.


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## thefuture2 (May 2, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>The OUTLAW</b>!
> 
> 
> Initially I thought that you and I were both Cavs fans but just had differing opinions on what direction that the Cavs should go. Now I'm starting to think that you don't even have the Cavs best intentions in mind. No way would I trade Wagner and trade down in the first for Smith. Maybe 5 years ago, but not now. More than just needing a 3 point shooter the Cavs need one that is worthy of starting, which I do not believe is the case with yr old Steve Smith.


I agree but are we really looking for a starter or just a guy who can fill it up? IMO, we could use a Reggie Miller-type who can come off the bench and give us three's. Besides, what use do we have for Wagner, you and I both know he's not going to make the switch to PG over one summer.


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## bselig (May 27, 2004)

First of all, there is no argument. This is reality. His size is reality. Past performance, or lack thereof, of very short players in the NBA is reality. Now, 5'11" isn't shockingly small for a point guard. I never said it was. I said he has a shockingly small chance of being a star player, and that is true. He is 5'11" TOPS, which is a good 2 inches under 6'1", which is "small" pg size. Now, name me players under six feet tall who have been perrenial allstars within the past twenty years. Lets see there names. Go ahead. Show me what makes a guy who has this physical mold likely to succeed. I want to know who the "enough players who have been a little undersized who have succeeded and become stars" are. And don't name me Charles Barkley or Adrian Dantley. Name me guys who have made the allstar game repeatedly under 6'0" within the past twenty years. Go ahead, do it.

And before you spew out some more idiocy, remember one more thing. I'm not saying Telfair is a bad draft pick. I'm saying he's a bad HIGH draft pick. He should not be drafted if there are players on the board with basketball playing ability who have a greater chance at developing into stars than Telfair does. Thats all. He can easily be viewed as a legitimate first rounder. He's just not a legitimate top ten pick, whether you want to believe it, or whether you don't.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Isiah Thomas was listed at 6'1, but is he really 6'1? What about Allen Iverson? He is 6'0. Is John Stockton really bigger than 6'0? 

Again if Telfair was listed at 6'0 and really 5'11, it wouldn't matter if his talent was great enough.

TJ Ford is a little shorter than Telfair an I would still take TJ on my team. I don't know why this is such a big deal. The Cavs need a young PG to be a back-up behind McInnis for few years and then take over when the Cavs are ready to win championships. They can find a Swingman in FA.


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## bselig (May 27, 2004)

Ok, I'm glad you guys finally are taking a look at what has actually happened in the NBA over the past twenty years or so. Yes Isiah was 6'1". Stockton was also 6'1", I have no clue why you think he was under 6'0", and I wouldn't mind knowing it. Now TJ Ford is a better comparison, at least physically. TJ Ford isn't a star player, and he never will be. Would I "take TJ on my team"? Yea, maybe in the right situation. Would I use a top ten pick on Ford in a draft where there are other players who actually have a chance of becoming stars? Of course not, my mom didn't use intervenous drugs while she was pregnant and I wasn't born with Down's Syndrome.

Height is shockingly important in basketball. NBA players are tall. When you are really short, it becomes harder to play against them in almost every facet of the game (one where it doesn't is dribbling, which is one reason Tyrone Bogues had a low assist to turnover ratio). Every inch of height matters EVEN MORE when the player is short. Lop off two inches from Yao Ming, he's still almost as good at basketball. Lop off two inches from Stephon Marbury, he's a worse basketball player. A lot worse.

Does Telfair have a good chance at being a starting PG in the NBA? Sure, why not. He's quick, a good passer, and a decent outside shooter. Do those abilities, when combined with a 5'11" height (again, TOPS) give him a good shot at being a star? Nope, not even close. Short players have had ability before. Ford is a good example. Another is Damon Stoudamire. Can Telfair be as good as them, or better? Yea. But to become a star player, he'd have to be a LOT better, and based on the past, that just isn't likely. You can think it is, or argue it is, but it isn't. Height matters. And it matters more for small players.

And what does" "Again if Telfair was listed at 6'0 and really 5'11, it wouldn't matter if his talent was great enough." mean? He's not listed at six because he's not six. He's 5'11" at best. Thats his height (stretching it). He's short. He's not just LISTED as being short, he's ACTUALLY short. He's untall.


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## sologigolos (May 27, 2003)

bselig -

you're arguing about how telfair will never be an all-star.

couple points:

1) do you think stockton or mark price, with their unflashy game and relatively low scoring average, would make it onto the all-star teams ahead of guys like steve francis, baron davis, et al.?

2) when you have the "building blocks" in Boozer and LeBron, are you still planning to be adamant on drafting a third all-star (as much as I hate Duke and Duke products, Boozer will be a star)? Is that really necessary? Or can you get by with "the best fit for your team", which, at this point, would be a point guard who can run an offense.

I don't think any team drafting Telfair is drafting him because of his 30ppg in PSAL. Sure, that helps that he can score, but no one (except for you) expects a 5'11" high school kid to become a scorer, takin the ball to the basket every possession. And I don't think Telfair thinks that either--why else would he feel the need to work so hard on his jumper?

Put it this way: if cleveland was drafting a 7-2 stiff who would never be an all-star, but would be valuable because he can rebound and block, no one would say jack. because that's what they need, and because there is a shortage of players who can do that effectively.

same with telfair. pgs may be dime a dozen, but point guards that have as much basketball sense and ability to run the point (if he is as good as they say at doing this) are actually very rare.



the point is--maybe you're right. maybe he'll never be a "star" and drop 28 a night and be in all-star games and slam dunk contests.
but cleveland has a pretty good nucleus. they don't need a star. (honestly, when was the last time that 3 all-stars came from the same team?)
and just because they have a high drazft pick dun mean they have to draft a star. they already have the seat-filler in LeBron. they need someone who will help them win.


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## Kezersoze (Mar 3, 2004)

I think the only real proof that Telfair will be a success in the league is imbodied in one guy, DAMON STOUDAMIRE. Damon is 5'10 but had 19pts and 9asts his rookie year and then had 20pts 8asts his second. So impossible is nothing lol (just wanted to use that ) Of course iam not directly comparing Telfair too Damon as PLAYERS, cause Damon was a much better shooter coming into the league but he shows that Telfair can be sucessfully at only 5'11. As long as Telfair keeps his head above water, improves his shooting he will be ok. The only legitimate problem with players under 6"0 is injuries. also I think Terell Brandon who was 5'11 was an allstar once, in the mid 90's?

By the way iam not riding Telfair's jock just yet, He still has alot to prove to me that he is worth being drafted at all.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

If you really think it's impossible for a player 5-11 to be an all-star...

Terrell Brandon was an all-star and he was listed at 5-11. Thereby completely disproving your notion that a player under 6 foot can't be an all-star.

If you can get a Terrell Brandon out of this draft you'll be happy.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

That is if Telfair even measures in at 5'11. I wouldn't be surprised if he measured in at 5'9 or 5'10.


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## QRICH (Feb 2, 2004)

Last week in Portland, he measured in at 5'11" 1/4 barefooted


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## bselig (May 27, 2004)

I didn't say you have to spend a top ten pick on a guy who has star potential. I said you SHOULD. You should always do that, because the more talent your team has, the better your team is. Spending high draft picks on positional drafting is a surefire way to make poor picks. It results in players who have more talent falling lower to teams who aren't necessarily drafting on position. The Cavs should NOT use the 10th pick to fill their point guard slot with a guy who is facing staggering odds of ever becoming a top point. And I don't think some euro big man should necessarily taken before Telfair, at all. Guys over 7 feet tall who aren't drafted in the top few picks in the draft are also extremely unlikely to be stars. A raw 7 footer at pick ten might have as low of a chance at being a star as Telfair does.

Ksoze has it about right. Out of small players, Brandon performed best (his lack of height helped give him an awesome assist to turnover ratio ala T.Bogues) and Stoudamire was solid for a while on a bad team. 

So, if a team wants to, they CAN burn a top ten pick on a tiny point guard. But ask yourself, is it worth it to burn a top ten on TJ Ford if there are other guys with potential out there that have a better shot at being stars? Is it worth it for Damon Stoudamire? These guys, save Terrell Brandon, are among the top small players to play the game in the past twenty years. They are a BEST CASE SCENARIO. The best case scenarios for other types of players are way, way, way higher than the best case scenario for a Telfair type player. Thats reality. Now, this is the team's decision. They can go ahead and sell themselves short and gamble on a guy extremely unlikely to be a star. They can take a young team, a team unlikely to contend for years due to the youth of its star player, and they can draft based on position. But if they want to use their top ten pick in an optimal fashion, they won't do that. They'll do something that makes sense, not something that doesn't make sense.


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## Kezersoze (Mar 3, 2004)

Brandon only did it once and was injured alot. Look Cleveland does not need Telfair. what the Cavs really need is some serious outside shooting on there team and another versitile swingman to take Eric Williams place and play with Lebron. Jeff Mcgniss is fine for now and if things get bad they can always go with lebron but if Cavs had last season a another young star caliber swingman that could add def and atleast 12pts, they might have made the playoffs.


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## bselig (May 27, 2004)

I never said a 5'11" player couldn't be an allstar. I said a short player, 5'11" is fine for illustrative purposes, is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY to be a star player. UNLIKELY. The highi picks of the NBA draft are all about acquiring guys who can be stars in the league. Its UNLIKELY, HIGHLY, that Telfair will be a star. Not impossible, UNLIKELY.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

The bottom line for the Cavaliers is that they need a point guard. McInnis is all right for now but he's not their future. Besides that, they don't even have a quality backup point guard.

It's probably going to be either Telfair or Nelson.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

if the rankings are accurate then livingston,gordon and harris will go before telfair. the kid will have a chance at a great career but i dont see him going in the lottery.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kezersoze</b>!
> Brandon only did it once and was injured alot. Look Cleveland does not need Telfair. what the Cavs really need is some serious outside shooting on there team and another versitile swingman to take Eric Williams place and play with Lebron. Jeff Mcgniss is fine for now and if things get bad they can always go with lebron but if Cavs had last season a another young star caliber swingman that could add def and atleast 12pts, they might have made the playoffs.


A lot of you don't have much of a clue as to what the Cavs need and how that need should best be serviced.

Yes, the Cavs do need an outside shooting swingman. But there is not a definite starter in this draft at 10 who can provide that. The Cavs are better off using FA in order to fill that hole with a guy like Hedo.

The Cavs can however fill their backup PG need, as well as their need for a future PG once Mcinnis goes with this draft.

At 10 they will have the option of either Nelson or Telfair. And realistically that is probably the two players they will look the hardest at.

There's a rumor on the Cavs board that the Cavs might trade their 10 pick down to Utah for 14 and 17 and then draft Telfair and Jackson down there. That would be the best thing for them.

I think it's going to be hilarious if Telfair measures out to 6 feet in shoes at Chicago.

5-11 1/4 in socks, could easily turn into 6-0 in shoes. And is congruent with the reports that Telfair was a "smidgen" taller than 5-11 Jameer Nelson.


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## sologigolos (May 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rainman</b>!
> if the rankings are accurate then livingston,gordon and harris will go before telfair. the kid will have a chance at a great career but i dont see him going in the lottery.


but gordon and harris are shoot-first PGs, and Livingston doesn't seem to have the athleticism of telfair. the three might not necessarily be what cleveland has in mind.

also-if telfair will be pass-first, does height matter as much as it would if he were shoot-first?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>keilhur</b>!
> 
> 
> but gordon and harris are shoot-first PGs, and Livingston doesn't seem to have the athleticism of telfair. the three might not necessarily be what cleveland has in mind.


And all 3 will probably most likely be gone by the time Cleveland picks at 10. Gordon might slip down there and force a tough decision.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

futurist, what do you think of Gordon for the Cavaliers? Although they need shooting, I don't think Ben Gordon is a good fit unless he can push the ball and control the tempo of the game like a true point guard. I'm not saying he can't, but it's an unknown right now.

If he's anything like a Steve Francis or Jason Terry, I'd pass.


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## Devestata (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> A lot of you don't have much of a clue as to what the Cavs need and how that need should best be serviced.
> ...


If Cleveland is able to get Telfair and Jackson, I think they run away with the best draft.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Nelson is a legit 6 feet, 5'11 without shoes, unless he grew or shrunk.

http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/predraft_vitals_03.pdf

There is your proof.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> futurist, what do you think of Gordon for the Cavaliers? Although they need shooting, I don't think Ben Gordon is a good fit unless he can push the ball and control the tempo of the game like a true point guard. I'm not saying he can't, but it's an unknown right now.
> 
> If he's anything like a Steve Francis or Jason Terry, I'd pass.


I don't really think Gordon would be a good fit, he's basically the same sort of player as Wagner...maybe a little more point guardsy...but he's not really what the Cavs need. But if he drops that far, who really knows what will happen. He's a pretty big talent to pass on even if he doesn't fit.


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## bselig (May 27, 2004)

The Cavs need the best player they can get. They don't "need a point guard" at this stage in the development of this young team. A team with a 19 year old Lebron isn't a contender. They need to build their talent base with the object of maxing it out several years down the road, not of filling a position next season. Take the best player available. If the best player available is a point guard, then take a point guard.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bselig</b>!
> The Cavs need the best player they can get. They don't "need a point guard" at this stage in the development of this young team. A team with a 19 year old Lebron isn't a contender. They need to build their talent base with the object of maxing it out several years down the road, not of filling a position next season. Take the best player available. If the best player available is a point guard, then take a point guard.


Cavs almost made the playoffs last year and they had one of the best records in the eastern conference in the second half of the season once they added Jeff Mcinnis.

They're closer to being a contender than you may think.

Drafting Telfair could solve a need AND it would be a pick for the future.

If you've ever seen Kevin Ollie play point for the Cavs you'd know how well Nelson or Telfair would fit/fix things.


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## bselig (May 27, 2004)

No, they aren't. The fact that they just missed the playoffs is literally meaningless. A team is a contender when it is dominant. Not when it is a good team or competitive. Lebron is good right now, but he isn't dominant. And he'll still need more talent around him. Don't fool yourself into thinking this team is anywhere near competing for a championship with the roster they have. Because they aren't.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bselig</b>!
> No, they aren't. The fact that they just missed the playoffs is literally meaningless. A team is a contender when it is dominant. Not when it is a good team or competitive. Lebron is good right now, but he isn't dominant. And he'll still need more talent around him. Don't fool yourself into thinking this team is anywhere near competing for a championship with the roster they have. Because they aren't.


Everybody in the east is a contender. Miami went from lottery team to 4 seed in one season. And they took Indiana to 6 games.

Again, Cleveland is closer than you make it out to be. They are a backup PG and an outside shooting swingman away from being a top team in the east.


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## bselig (May 27, 2004)

I said contender. C-O-N-T-E-N-D-E-R. Not top team in the east. This team needs two things to be a contender. It needs Lebron James to be older, and it needs more talent. Thats all. Contender. Not top team in the east. Contender.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bselig</b>!
> I said contender. C-O-N-T-E-N-D-E-R. Not top team in the east. This team needs two things to be a contender. It needs Lebron James to be older, and it needs more talent. Thats all. Contender. Not top team in the east. Contender.


How do you define contender? I think I have a much more liberal definition of contender than you do. You don't think the top team in the east is a contender?


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

I would just like to throw in my two cents here about Telfair.

First of all the comparisons to Mighty Mouse and TJ are bad and probably not beneficial to Sebastian. First of all TJ and Damon are poor defenders; I don't know many sub-6 footers who defend well, in fact it's damn near impossible because it is much harder to contest shots. TJ has an incredible vertical jump and insane athletic ability, but he's not a great defender. Also Bassy isn't half the scorer that Damon Stoudamire is and he would have to be a VERY special player to be at TJ Ford's level. Remember, TJ was the best player in college basketball for pretty much the entirety of his tenure at Texas. TJ Ford might have the best vision of any player in the last decade, he makes everyone on the team better by tenfold. I don't think Bassy is the scorer that Damon is or the playmaker that TJ is. Plus the probability that he can be left on the court for 40 minutes a game is very low because he will most likely never be a good defender. Sebastian will have to be a once in a generation type point guard in order to be an perennial all-star, because TJ Ford will probably never reach that level, but has similar height and is VERY VERY talented. Plus he is a lot more athletic than Telfair.


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## bselig (May 27, 2004)

Nimreitz summed up Telfair well.

In regards to contenders, the top team in the east can be a contender, but happens not to be one right now. As the conference strengthens, they'll have a few contenders...might take a while though.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

People are being very hard on TJ Ford in this thread and elsewhere. He was really good for the Bucks. He was no Kirk Hinrich, but he showed he has a lot of potential...he's the closest thing to Jason Kidd out there right now. People should step back and give him a little more respect than they do.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> People are being very hard on TJ Ford in this thread and elsewhere. He was really good for the Bucks. He was no Kirk Hinrich, but he showed he has a lot of potential...


I must have missed the season where Hinrich was on a totally other level than Ford...

I know the small stat differences, but ultimately, TJ was leading his team to wins....


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> I must have missed the season where Hinrich was on a totally other level than Ford...
> ...


Kirk is way overrated.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

TJ Ford played way above my expectations of him. I thought he would get abused on the defensive end of the court. He shot a low percentage, as expected, but his assist totals were very good, and he led the team with a lot of heart and energy.

Kirk and TJ are very different players with different advantages and disadvantages, but the biggest advantage Kirk has over TJ is his good health. TJ is in trouble. Spine problems are nothing to shake a stick at.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> I must have missed the season where Hinrich was on a totally other level than Ford...
> ...


You're so bitter nowadays Arenas. You should get away from the Bulls board for a few weeks. It'll be good for you.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Weren't the Bucks predicted to be the worst team in the EC last year? They made the playoffs and had a great record with TJ leading the way. If Telfair has a similar impact that TJ had as a rookie then he has done well.

I heard the surgery went well on TJ, so he should be back next year just fine.


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## Kezersoze (Mar 3, 2004)

Side note: Better Court Vision and Handles Lebron or Livingston?


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nimreitz</b>!
> I would just like to throw in my two cents here about Telfair.
> 
> First of all the comparisons to Mighty Mouse and TJ are bad and probably not beneficial to Sebastian. First of all TJ and Damon are poor defenders; I don't know many sub-6 footers who defend well, in fact it's damn near impossible because it is much harder to contest shots. TJ has an incredible vertical jump and insane athletic ability, but he's not a great defender. Also Bassy isn't half the scorer that Damon Stoudamire is and he would have to be a VERY special player to be at TJ Ford's level. Remember, TJ was the best player in college basketball for pretty much the entirety of his tenure at Texas. TJ Ford might have the best vision of any player in the last decade, he makes everyone on the team better by tenfold. I don't think Bassy is the scorer that Damon is or the playmaker that TJ is. Plus the probability that he can be left on the court for 40 minutes a game is very low because he will most likely never be a good defender. Sebastian will have to be a once in a generation type point guard in order to be an perennial all-star, because TJ Ford will probably never reach that level, but has similar height and is VERY VERY talented. Plus he is a lot more athletic than Telfair.


5 stars for a good post and good comparision to mighty mouse.


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## IAMGREAT (May 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nimreitz</b>!
> I would just like to throw in my two cents here about Telfair.
> 
> First of all the comparisons to Mighty Mouse and TJ are bad and probably not beneficial to Sebastian. First of all TJ and Damon are poor defenders; I don't know many sub-6 footers who defend well, in fact it's damn near impossible because it is much harder to contest shots. TJ has an incredible vertical jump and insane athletic ability, but he's not a great defender. Also Bassy isn't half the scorer that Damon Stoudamire is and he would have to be a VERY special player to be at TJ Ford's level. Remember, TJ was the best player in college basketball for pretty much the entirety of his tenure at Texas. TJ Ford might have the best vision of any player in the last decade, he makes everyone on the team better by tenfold. I don't think Bassy is the scorer that Damon is or the playmaker that TJ is. Plus the probability that he can be left on the court for 40 minutes a game is very low because he will most likely never be a good defender. Sebastian will have to be a once in a generation type point guard in order to be an perennial all-star, because TJ Ford will probably never reach that level, but has similar height and is VERY VERY talented. Plus he is a lot more athletic than Telfair.


Bassy is a better playmaker and an excellent defender. I'm not so sure that you know what you're talking about. If you watch the McDonald's and Nike Hoops Summit game you'll see Sebastian consistently making great defensive plays. He gets a lot of deflections because his hands are so quick. He even gets an occasional block but more frequent than other guards. In that McDonald's game he made 4 great defensive plays in a single offensive possesion for the other team. He was called for a foul on the last attempt but he got all ball. Throughout the entire Hoops Summit game he did the same against the guards, constantly stripping them. Again in the McDonald's game he ran the team like a pg should as well as in the Hoops Summit. He had a lot of assists with few turnovers in both games, his team go the victory and he didn't force a lot of shots. I'm not sure what you people are talking about.


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## IAMGREAT (May 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kezersoze</b>!
> Side note: Better Court Vision and Handles Lebron or Livingston?


Lebron by a mile. Livingston does silly stuff and people are enamored with it. Lebron's dribble is more creative out of neccessity and his ball protection is far better. Livingston's court vision is pretty good, but he doesn't seem to create at full speed, he can only do it when things are moving slow.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> People are being very hard on TJ Ford in this thread and elsewhere. He was really good for the Bucks. He was no Kirk Hinrich, but he showed he has a lot of potential...he's the closest thing to Jason Kidd out there right now. People should step back and give him a little more respect than they do.


I disagree. If you mean "no Kirk Hinrich" in the sense of scoring, then you're 100% correct. However, if you're talking about the impact he made for his team and how well the player played, I think you're off. Ford contributed in a different way...a bit how Jason Kidd does it. His floor leadership, court vision, passing helped his team drastically. Yeah, Damon Jones stepped in nicely statwise, but the Bucks lost their composure down the stretch without Ford. Was it due to their youth? Yes and I personally believe also the lack of Ford. Hinrich's contribution showed up more in the stats than Ford's did (except his defense). I think they were pretty equal.



> Nope...just PSL games. Now, if Telfair was two or three inches taller, he'd be a much, much better prospect. The shorter the player is, the more important height is. But he isn't. Doctors can generally tell you if you are likely to continue growing, so I'm sure NBA teams will have that info at hand. *The taller the player is, the less important extra height is.* For example, if Yao Ming were two inches taller, he'd be better, but not that much better. Buf if Damon Stoudamire were two inches taller, he'd be MUCH better. As it stands, Telfair is a midget. His talent should give him a shot to be a starter in the NBA. Does he have enough talent to overcome his physical deficiencies and be a star player in the pros? Highly unlikely. Possible? Sure. But unlikely enough to warrant using a top pick on a player who has a better chance at becoming a star basketball player.
> 
> Now, I hope your Telfair-Marbury comparison ends at potential-to-grow-a-few-inches-after-high-school stage, because thats about as far as it should go.


Really? Since when? So if I was chiseled like Al Jefferson, had a game like Amare, but only stood at 6'6", which position would I be playing? You guessed it, small forward or scrub minutes at the 4.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>FanOfAll8472</b>!
> 
> Really? Since when? So if I was chiseled like Al Jefferson, had a game like Amare, but only stood at 6'6", which position would I be playing? You guessed it, small forward or scrub minutes at the 4.


Or if you had heart you could still play the 4. Just like Charles Barkley did at 6-4. Imagine if Sir Charles had those two extra inches.

Corliss Williamson does pretty well as an undersized 4 or oversized 3. Antwan Jamison is a 3/4 tweener and he did pretty well for himself. Ben Wallace plays center at probably 6-7. Kenyon Martin is undersized at the 4.

Players come in all shapes and sizes. It's not about their height, it's about their heart.

And point guard is probably the position least dictated by size. Can you name 5 point guards who post up their opponent as a central part of their game? The Point Guard position is the one position where you can get away with being grossly undersized if you have game.

And of course, Telfair isn't grossly undersized. He'll measure in at 6-0 in Chicago, is my prediction.


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## bselig (May 27, 2004)

The extra 2 inches are still a factor, sure, but they are less of a factor than when a player is smaller. You also have to factor in position. If you've got a pg who is 6.7 v. a pg who is 6.5, that extra two inches is n't going to be as big of a deal as it will be when you have a pf at 6.8 v. a pf at 6.6. I didn't specifically mention positions in my previous post, but what you are saying makes sense...its still important when guys are taller, and more specifically so when it forces someone to play a different position.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>IAMGREAT</b>!
> 
> 
> Bassy is a better playmaker and an excellent defender. I'm not so sure that you know what you're talking about. If you watch the McDonald's and Nike Hoops Summit game you'll see Sebastian consistently making great defensive plays. He gets a lot of deflections because his hands are so quick. He even gets an occasional block but more frequent than other guards. In that McDonald's game he made 4 great defensive plays in a single offensive possesion for the other team. He was called for a foul on the last attempt but he got all ball. Throughout the entire Hoops Summit game he did the same against the guards, constantly stripping them. Again in the McDonald's game he ran the team like a pg should as well as in the Hoops Summit. He had a lot of assists with few turnovers in both games, his team go the victory and he didn't force a lot of shots. I'm not sure what you people are talking about.


What you have to be careful about is confusing "good defender" with "puts up good defensive stats." A lot of guys are capable of playing the passing lanes and getting a lot of steals, but can't shut down anyone, they can't deny a shot, can't contest it, stand too far from the guy they're defending. It's tricky. AI has a reputation of being a good defender, but his steals stats make him look a lot better than he really is, Eric Snow doesn't put up nearly as good defensive stats, but he is twice the defender that AI is.

And I wasn't really impressed with him in either the Hoops Summit or the McD's All American Game. You obviously have a different impression from those games, but he really didn't look like a great player. If he's not Marbury's cousin, like someone here already said, he's going to Louisville for at least 2 years, perhaps more.


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## bselig (May 27, 2004)

You have to be careful about claiming that good defensive stats dont make a player a good defender. A point guard who gets steals and plays the passing lanes is likely more important than a shutdown defender type point guard like Eric Snow. Snow is useful on his own team because Iverson is a small sg and, naturally, finds it tough to matchup defensively against bigger sg's. So Snow often defends sg's (whose primary purpose on the court is scoring). Now, Snow would be a lot less useful on an NBA team with a typical shooting guard. Playing passing lanes is extremely important. Passing is part of basketball. Disrupting passing disrupts the other team's basketball offense and gives your team an advantage in basketball. So putting up good defensive stats (steals, here) DOES mean a player is a good defender, and it often means a player is a better defender than someone who is a good man-on-man defender (ESPECIALLY at the pg position, where not many players, even starters, are bigtime scorers). A pg is oftentimes MUCH MORE VALUABLE playing the passing lanes and disrupting the offense of OTHER players than he is ensuring his counterpart (whose main job it is to make OTHER players on his own team better) never scores. If a pg can play the lanes and reduce the effectiveness of the main purpose of the other team's pg (passing), he'll often be better off than if he's good at reducing the secondary purpose of the other team's pg (scoring).

I'm not trying saying Snow isn't good at disrupting passes either...he's a fine allround defender.


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## FanOfAll8472 (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Or if you had heart you could still play the 4. Just like Charles Barkley did at 6-4. Imagine if Sir Charles had those two extra inches.
> 
> Corliss Williamson does pretty well as an undersized 4 or oversized 3. Antwan Jamison is a 3/4 tweener and he did pretty well for himself. Ben Wallace plays center at probably 6-7. Kenyon Martin is undersized at the 4.
> ...


You make a really good point about the heart and I agree. Sir Charlz, though was an exception. Big and Nasty is a regular sized 3 (well maybe a bit heavier) and he doesn't play the 4 very often at all. I think height, weight, strength are all overrated. It's about the mental game and the will to succeed. That's why you see Bobby Jackson make those incredible rebounds over half a foot taller guys.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

Well, I've never heard of any team that regularly lost games because their point guard was only 6'0. If he's only 6'0 and he's not any good, that's another thing.


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## IAMGREAT (May 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nimreitz</b>!
> 
> 
> What you have to be careful about is confusing "good defender" with "puts up good defensive stats." A lot of guys are capable of playing the passing lanes and getting a lot of steals, but can't shut down anyone, they can't deny a shot, can't contest it, stand too far from the guy they're defending. It's tricky. AI has a reputation of being a good defender, but his steals stats make him look a lot better than he really is, Eric Snow doesn't put up nearly as good defensive stats, but he is twice the defender that AI is.
> ...


He is a good defender and he gets good defensive stats. How's that? Most of his steals came from strips and he always stays in front of his defender and challenges a lot of shots. Whenever I watch him he always gets a hand in the defenders face and most often times they miss. I've never ever seen another point guard bust his ***. You must watch these games again. You need to watch them closely, even though I believe it's very obvious.


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## Jockrider (Jun 25, 2003)

Telfair makes Mugsy look like Yao. Is Telfair even 4 feet tall? :grinning:


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