# Article: Vince Worth Jamal Price



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/32694.htm

By MARC BERMAN

December 14, 2004 -- AFTER watching him in a Knick uniform for two months, many fans are smitten with Jamal Crawford, his breezy personality, exciting crossover dribble and dipsy-doodle moves reminiscent of Earl "The Pearl" Monroe.

But Jamal Crawford is no Vince Carter.

And that's why, when Crawford's contract becomes eligible to be traded tomorrow, Knick President Isiah Thomas should think hard about building a package around the Knick combo guard.

To date, Thomas has kept him out of discussions. Thomas believes the 24-year-old is a rising All-Star.

"I don't think he's going to give [Crawford] up," one Raptor said. "He worked too hard to get him."

But turning Crawford into Carter could be worth the blood, sweat and tears. Despite injuries, Carter, who's due off the injured list after Sunday's game, is still one of the league's top three exciting players, smack in his prime at 27. He's desperate for a new venue, a new challenge. Broadway, he believes, is that challenge.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

is Vince really worth it?

its arguable that Vince is even better right now. Vince plays half assed every night, and he just went to the IL cause he hurt himself walking back on defense. you gotta be kidding me.

Also Jamal is like 4 years younger, and has no baggage and isnt injury prone. And no matter what, we always see Jamal doing everything he can to win the game, you cant say the same for Vince, he'd rather complain that he cant listen to his ipod.

even raptors fans dont like Carter anymore.


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## rapsfan4life (Apr 10, 2004)

> even raptors fans dont like Carter anymore.



There is an understatement, please take him we beg of you


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

There is ZERO chance Zeke trades JC for Vince..Carter is too brittle,and at this point is a pouting grounded off balance 3 point gunner...

Ill take Vince and Jalen for penny a tt..and not a penny more..well,maybe H2o


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> Ill take Vince and Jalen for penny a tt..and not a penny more..well,maybe H2o


:laugh: :laugh: 

Your a dreamer.
Carter > TT
Jalen > Penny

Houston ? :sour:


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## TOballer (Aug 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> There is ZERO chance Zeke trades JC for Vince..Carter is too brittle,and at this point is a pouting grounded off balance 3 point gunner...
> 
> Ill take Vince and Jalen for penny a tt..and not a penny more..well,maybe H2o


u want fries with that too?:| 
Ill take ur whole team for 3 bucks...not a penny more.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Trading JC isn't gona happen.

Period.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

from the daily News



> VINCE ON DECK?: Toronto management is said to be getting antsy about trading Vince Carter, which could be beneficial to the Knicks. The Raptors are reluctant to deal Carter for Tim Thomas and Penny Hardaway. However, the Knicks are one of the few teams that would be willing to take on Jalen Rose's contract.


thats the offer boys...

And for the uninformed,its not about who is better anymore.Toronto is looking for the best possible deal,and in no way will it be fair market value.TT and Penny will give you players who will have expiring contracts next year.Not many clubs want Jalen Rose.We are so far over the Cap it doesnt affect us..

Just out of curiousity what do you think you will get for a brittle jumpshooting unhappy Carter and Rose??


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Honestly, I would rather keep him and Jalen than give the Knicks, NY and Zeke what they want for their price.

If Jamal is not in the deal. Vince is not a Knick.

Why else isn't he a knick already if that was the deal? What was stopping it. Houston's not in. He was available through the expansion draft.

If Zeke wants Vince he has to do what Berman suggests which is put up or shut up. 

I have no problem if he wants to shut up. I'm sick of the daily garbage I hear out of NY.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blowuptheraptors</b>!
> Honestly, I would rather keep him and Jalen than give the Knicks, NY and Zeke what they want for their price.


That's understandable.



> If Jamal is not in the deal. Vince is not a Knick.


That you, Babcock?



> Why else isn't he a knick already if that was the deal? What was stopping it. Houston's not in. He was available through the expansion draft.


There are a couple of issues at play. First, I think TO mgmt originally thought the could placate Vince and work things out. Second, they originally thought if the were to trade him they'd field better offers than they've received. Third, they thought their performance and attendance would be better than it's been. Fourth, now with all of the above combined we also happen to see Houston "ready" to play again, which he was not during the expansion draft.

None of which is to say that I believe there will be a deal, or that Houston is in it, but if there is to be a deal and he is to be in it those are some of the attendant reasons.




> If Zeke wants Vince he has to do what Berman suggests which is put up or shut up.


I agree in principle, just not in the specifics. I highly doubt T. THomas and Hardaway would net Carter and Rose. Babs would be signing his death sentence. But why the fixation on JC? Who's to say the other possible assets/holdups aren't Ariza, Sweeteny, KT, Nazr, etc?

The thing is, Marbury and JC are Zeke's prized acquisitions. He's made the most promises and commitments to them. I think he feels the most responsibility toward them. They are his most untouchable assets. I think he'd pass on VC and go back to working on Curry, or elsewhere, than part with either of them. So if the deal truly is dependent upon JC's inclusion I think it's a dead deal. 

It's also worth asking, since Crawford is currently playing at Carters current level, without the attendant brittleness issues, why should the Knicks wish to trade the younger player, who makes less than half Vince's money, and have to take on Rose, for parallel performance?

You want to tell me VC is playing with one hand tied behind his back to force mgmts hand I'll believe that, but how much better is he than what he's given you the last two years? No one knows. But for an older, brittle, expensive replacement to JC, with the 500 lb gorilla called Rose attached, the trade looks ludicrous from the NY perspective. 

And speaking for myself, even parting with Ariza, Sweetney, KT, or Nazr, may be too much to give up for that duo. Carter is undersized at SF and redundant to JC's game. And how many guards does one team need? What we need is size, strength, defense, and intensity; none of which VC has proven capable of over sustained periods. 

So back to your point, I'd prefer that Isiah shut up than put up. You guys can blow yourselves up elsewhere.



> I have no problem if he wants to shut up. I'm sick of the daily garbage I hear out of NY.


I feel for you. We get tired of it too. Not only did the VC rumor originate in the off-season, but we were dragged through the Crawford melodrama, the Walker tease, plus the Dampier debacle. 

The problem for you is, more than likely, most of those rumors were real. It's gotta be tough having your better players prefer to play here than there. Just remember, it's not the NY media that is driving you nuts. It's Vince and Raptors management. You don't see the NY media turning up much garbage about contented stars on winning teams.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

oak,I honestly do not see Vince making our team any better than it is unless "the Zeke" steals Carter and Rose for TT and Penny.

I am not so sure i would trade Vince for JC straght up considering the salary difference and Vinces brittleness.Plus,i am not enamored with a guy who gives 50% because he wants to be moved yet is perfectly happy taking 100% of his compensation.

As nutty as Oakley is/was he spoke the truth when he said carter does not bring it night in and night out...:no:


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I'm with ya truth. I'll concede that VC is a better player than JC now, but if Vince wasn't a brittle, remanufactured wuss it wouldn't be close. And how they'll compare in three years is anybody's guess.

And not only was Oakley right about VC, VC played his best when being tweaked by him.

If we can "steal" Wince for TT/PH then fine, but otherwise I'd rather just start JYD at SF and play out the rest of the season as is. Then we can use TT/PH as bait next yr when their contracts are expiring.

I don't mean to be too offensive to VC, I do think he can be more effective in a new environment. It's just he's not what we lack in right now. He's not a significant upgrade from JC, he comes with Rose attached, and we'd have to give up bigmen or defenders for him, none of which we can afford to spare. Unless perhaps we also take back one/some of theirs.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

rashidi,if you are out there..Do you see how a sane and rational person acts regarding players?Notice that Oak said he thinks Junkyard should be starting.We can acknowledge that TT is not playing well and is probaly better suited to come off the bench,assuming he brings it.....

you should try it sometime


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

oops


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> 
> There are a couple of issues at play. First, I think TO mgmt originally thought the could placate Vince and work things out. Second, they originally thought if the were to trade him they'd field better offers than they've received. Third, they thought their performance and attendance would be better than it's been. Fourth, now with all of the above combined we also happen to see Houston "ready" to play again, which he was not during the expansion draft.


I'll say yes to # 1. Probably not to 2, they should have known otherwise since being fresh from other organisations. They should be even more familiar with his perceptions outside the team. For three, better on att, yes. On performance no. Babs even admits they are ahead of where he had hoped so far. 4 I'll buy but that deal and the age and the knees swear me off if I'm trying to build a relatively young run and gun team.



> I highly doubt T. THomas and Hardaway would net Carter and Rose. Babs would be signing his death sentence. But why the fixation on JC? Who's to say the other possible assets/holdups aren't Ariza, Sweeteny, KT, Nazr, etc?
> 
> The thing is, Marbury and JC are Zeke's prized acquisitions. He's made the most promises and commitments to them. I think he feels the most responsibility toward them. They are his most untouchable assets. I think he'd pass on VC and go back to working on Curry, or elsewhere, than part with either of them. So if the deal truly is dependent upon JC's inclusion I think it's a dead deal.


I understand this argument. Some have argued that NY won't include Nazr because there will be slim pickins at the 5. Toronto certainly has very little in the big department to give back.



> It's also worth asking, since Crawford is currently playing at Carters current level, without the attendant brittleness issues, why should the Knicks wish to trade the younger player, who makes less than half Vince's money, and have to take on Rose, for parallel performance?
> 
> You want to tell me VC is playing with one hand tied behind his back to force mgmts hand I'll believe that, but how much better is he than what he's given you the last two years? No one knows. But for an older, brittle, expensive replacement to JC, with the 500 lb gorilla called Rose attached, the trade looks ludicrous from the NY perspective.


I honestly don't know why Zeke is talking to us because the last thing he needs is VC. But VC has become a little more than just a player. Unjustifiably of late, but obviously still holds mystique. For Zeke to have real interest, he must believe he still has 25, 5 and 5 days left in him. He is better than he is showing now due to the system and "checking out" IMO.



> I feel for you. We get tired of it too. Not only did the VC rumor originate in the off-season, but we were dragged through the Crawford melodrama, the Walker tease, plus the Dampier debacle.
> 
> The problem for you is, more than likely, most of those rumors were real. It's gotta be tough having your better players prefer to play here than there. Just remember, it's not the NY media that is driving you nuts. It's Vince and Raptors management. You don't see the NY media turning up much garbage about contented stars on winning teams.


What burns me is the stuff Zeke leaks to the media and gets it passed off as an impending deal. If TT and Penny were desired by Babs, that deal would be done already for JR and VC. No doubt. 

The daily variations of crap, adding JYD or Moochie etc don't make any sense to the Raptors whatsoever. The Berman piece was the first sensible piece I've heard where something of value was brought into discussions.

Honestly, I don't mind TT and AH as a savings on the cap a year and a half from now. But since it's not immediate, there has to be some value. Those 2 as players alone are not value.

I also don't mind certain players wanting to to play in NY. Camby and Spree have come out to say the same. NY is it. I don't take it as a slap. When and if Babs can do what I hope, he will attract some decent FAs.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

You are an honorable person, blowup. 

Hopefully something good for both teams can be found. I don't see it - but I also don't see either side shooting themselves in the head - so lets just hope.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Blowup,the problem is when teams know you need to deal,you have very little leverage and Vince is certainlynot helping matters....

you need to clear cap and you need a draft pick...look what happened to chicago and JC..that is the last thing you want to happen..

i am not suggesting a firesale,but you have to unload Vince..t5he last thing you need is an apathetic vince and a so so record...then you have the worst of both worlds...Trade vince and JR,have a crappy year and gets some young studs


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Trade vince and JR,have a crappy year and gets some young studs


That is absolutely what they need to do, just not with _our_ young studs.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

AH, there's the rub. I honestly wanted to change things before Vince requested his trade. I thought the draft was best but, Babs had to be pushed unfortunately. And things are a lot tougher now.

All the news I hear points to a deal before Christmas but after, well, today.

Who knows. I'd like an early Christmas present. VC could come off the IR after Sunday's game. They are at Houston Monday.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

is your number 1 pick showing any signs of life??

that was an "odd" pick......

and you are right....babcock should have never let things gone this far....Vince is too much of a pouter and it affects his game...hes killing his market value,which is playing right into Zekes hands...


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## Numbed One (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> is your number 1 pick showing any signs of life??
> 
> that was an "odd" pick......
> ...


Hoffa has looked good in the minutes he has played, but Mitchell keeps him on a very, very short leash no matter how well he plays.

He sets very strong screens, plays good postional D, and has very good offensive rebounding instincts. He'll be a starter eventually. IMO he should start over Woods, or atleast consistently be the first big off the bench (or second behind Marshall and occasionally Bonner).

A lot of people have a bad impression of the guy, but that is only because he hasn't had much playing time. He hasn't gotten enough IMO. He could provide exactly what the Raptors are lacking. 10/10 every night if given 30 minutes a game. He lets no one outside of Shaq back him down in the post, and even against Shaq he did an admirable job. He will start someday.

But I'm not the coach, soo...


He may never live up to the potential 'expected' of a #8 pick, but many lottery picks don't end up fulfilling their supposed potential. And he won't be a total bust in any way.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

if the kid is dedicated and a hard worker that is half the battle...10 and 10,is nothing to sneeze at,especially in the east


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## Numbed One (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> if the kid is dedicated and a hard worker that is half the battle...10 and 10,is nothing to sneeze at,especially in the east



Keep in mind this is only my opinion (it is shared by a few other at the Raptors board, too). A lot of people hate him.

All signs point to him being a gym rat/hard worker.

He does have his weaknesses, like shotblocking/hops, but Bosh is our weakside shotblocker. As long as Hoffa can handle the big physical C's in the post, we'll be good down the road IMO.

I think the intelligent fans like what they have seen from him.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> is your number 1 pick showing any signs of life??
> 
> that was an "odd" pick......


There are so many ways of looking at how you draft centres. Some think it's a waste outside the top 3. "If he was so good he would have been gone earlier." 

However, this team has never had a real big man to build with. We are not going to win for a couple of years. It is no coincidence that big men often take years to mature. 

While people say "he's 24, how much upside does he have?" I don't think that applies. The kid has all the physical tools. He is a legit 6-10 and very strong. He has a nice shot. He can stay in front of people laterally and runs the floor pretty well. He is no snail.

However, he needs to develop a better sense of position and anticipation. He only played 2 years of D1 ball, these will come with time. Donyell won't be here past this year, so minutes will come.

I have seen flashes of great passing with good vision. But sometimes he looks lost with regard to positioning on O. But IMO all these things can be taught. He has the tools and the toughness to be a solid contributor by the end of year 2 to the start of year 3.


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