# Wilcox and Ely?



## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

What the hell is Elgin Baylor smoking? The Clippers already have Elton Brand. why do they need 2 other young PF? When interviewed, he said that they probably won't acquire Andre Miller. So, why did he draft 2 PF if he doesn't plan on trading them? 

I really thought that Miller would be going to LA, especially when the Cavs selected Dajuan Wagner with the 6th pick. Ricky Davis is a SG, so Wagner would have to play PG. This whole draft just isn't making much sense.:no:


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*couldn't agree more*

as a Cavs fan I was mad when they took Wagner instead of Butler, and when the CLips took 2 PFs (including WIlcox), I kept waiting for a trade to be announced. Maybe in a few weeks or something, but you are right, this crap just doesn't make any sense... but maybe that is why neither the Cavs or the Clips are getting much better.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

if i were a clipper fan, i'd want baylor lynched... I mean, what the hell was he thinking. AT the very least get butler and use him as trade bait.. no clue what baylor is smoking either... just glad I'm not a clippers fan


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

Jesus, settle down.

It makes absolutely ZERO sense to take Caron Butler over Chris Wilcox.

Wilcox has a higher trade value. He wasn't supposed to be around at 8. And he's a PF - PF's have more value than 2guard/SF's. It's easier to find wing players than it is big men.

So if they make a trade, Wilcox has more value.

And if they keep him, he has more value to the Clips. With Odom, Miles, Maggette, and Q, there is no room at the 2 or 3 for Butler whatsoever. He'd sti the bench and never get off. At least Wilcox can backup at the 4.

The Clippers going into the draft had 2 needs. A PG and size/defense/rebounding in the backup 4/5.

They have Marko Jaric coming over. He would've been a high lottery pick if he were in this years draft. PG position addressed.

They took Wilcox and Ely. Big man need addressed.

Before the draft, everyone tells the clipps that they need to make sure they keep their core players in tact and build around them. And that is the smart decision.

But now, people are criticizing them for not trading their core players. And trading one of Miles, Odom, Q, or Brand is what it was going to take to make a deal.

The clipps have to live by a double standard. Non Clipper fans will always find something to criticize. They do what people say and don't break up the team and they get criticized. 

I for one am extremely happy that they did not trade for Andre Miller. Why? Because in doing so it would have to break up the core. And that is not the way to make this team a winner.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

What are you talking about? Caron Butler is said to be the most NBA ready player that was in the draft. He'll come in and score points right away for his team. Wilcox.:laugh: Oh yeah, he's got way more trade value than Butler. :laugh: It's like saying, "Samaki Walker has more trade value than Shaq." Butler was great all season, Wilcox was only great in the NCAA Tournament. And you're telling me that Wilcox has more trade value?!:no: :laugh:


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by *RD *
> Jesus, settle down.
> 
> It makes absolutely ZERO sense to take Caron Butler over Chris Wilcox.
> ...


By the way, people are talking about trading Maggette, one of the picks and some cash to the Cavs for Andre Miller, not Q, DMiles, and Brand. Would you rather have Maggette and one of the picks or Andre Miller? 

The Clippers need to get rid of one of their picks, because now they have an overload at the PF position (Brand, Wilcox and Ely), and none of those players are big enough to play center.:no:


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

NBA ready doesn't mean crap. Dan Gadzuric is more NBA ready than Nene Hilario. Would you take Gadzuric over him?

And then it comes down to position - The Clippers were loaded at the wing position and had no depth at the 4 or 5 spots. If they took Butler and had to keep him, they are even deeper at the wing, and still have nothing at the 4 and 5(in terms of depth). At least now, they have fantastic depth everywhere.

As for the trade, no, Maggette is not in the rumors. That was the predraft rumors. The Clips tried to move Maggette and the picks, but nobody bit.

The Cavs and Hornets wanted Darius Miles or Lamar Odom. To get a deal done, we had to include one of them and both picks. Those players are core players, and should not be traded. So Im happy a trade didnt go down.

If a deal involving Maggette and Wilcox(and a PG - Dooling or Jaric and maybe future picks) can be made, go for it. I think that package of young players is definitely enticing, especially when Cle and N.O. know they will not sign Miller or Davis when they are FA's. I hope a deal can be swung with that package of players, but if Miles or Odom(or Brand) has to be involved, then I would rather not deal.


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

Oh, and yes, Melvin Ely is big enough to play Center.

He is 6'10 250lbs and has a 7'4 wingspan.

Nene Hilario, at the exact same measurements and wingspan is said to be able to play the 5 spot, but Ely can't. Why is that?

Ely will be the backup C for the Clippers.

I do agree that Wilcox needs to go, because the only position he can play is PF, and obviously Brand has 35 of those minutes taken. Ely can take those minutes, and play backup 5 minutes. He's more versatile than Wilcox because of his size. I'd keep him, but move Wilcox.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

your going to eat those words RD 

I'll post again in the middle of the season when butler is on his way to winning ROY and wilcox and ely are bench warmers next year.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

As for NBA ready. People say butler is NBA ready as he can come in and score 18 pts a game, grab 7 boards and 3 or 4 assists rookie season. It doesn't mean he doesn't have potential to be better then that. He could be avging 25 to 28 pts in a couple years.

He has tenacity for rebounding like marion inside, and has a awesome mid range game w/ ability to penetrate.

Proven Centers are more valueable then proven swingmen. But PF are more then available in this league, just as many of them as swingmen. So your looking at players at positions that both available, one is unproven and may be a bust, the other will produce good numbers at worse, be somewhere between Pierce and Marion if things work out. They are worlds apart.

As for trading.

Cavs wanted Butler badly! They were working on trade for him till very last minute but Clippers were stupid. But now, they have wilcox, and the cavs don't want him, the hornets don't want him either(if they want to go after davis). So they wasted a pick/or chance to get andre miller by not getting butler.


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## basketball_jesus (Jun 15, 2002)

Have you been listening to anything that is being said in this post KenethTo? We dont give a crap if Butler is the best player in this draft, he would still be behind Odom, Miles, and probably Q-Rich. There is no way we could give him any minutes. We dont need a swingman no matter how good they will end up being.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

****, would you want Paul Pierce on your team? You always take best player available. If you would have drafted Butler, a deal would have happened. The only reason a deal didnt go down was because the damn clippers picked wilcox instead of Butler. The deal would have been odom and the 2 picks for Andre Miller.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by *RD *
> NBA ready doesn't mean crap. Dan Gadzuric is more NBA ready than Nene Hilario. Would you take Gadzuric over him?
> 
> And then it comes down to position - The Clippers were loaded at the wing position and had no depth at the 4 or 5 spots. If they took Butler and had to keep him, they are even deeper at the wing, and still have nothing at the 4 and 5(in terms of depth). At least now, they have fantastic depth everywhere.
> ...


What in God's name are you talking about? I didn't say that NBA ready means crap! I said that Caron Butler is a great player and that scouts are saying he is the most NBA ready player in the draft. You need to read posts better buddy.:yes: And, how in the world is Dan Gadzuric more NBA ready than Hilario?! Bad example, bad, bad, bad example.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by *The X Factor *
> 
> 
> And, how in the world is Dan Gadzuric more NBA ready than Hilario?! Bad example, bad, bad, bad example.


Because he went to college-and has more size.


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by *The X Factor *
> 
> 
> What in God's name are you talking about? I didn't say that NBA ready means crap! I said that Caron Butler is a great player and that scouts are saying he is the most NBA ready player in the draft. You need to read posts better buddy.:yes: And, how in the world is Dan Gadzuric more NBA ready than Hilario?! Bad example, bad, bad, bad example.


You used Butler being able to play immediately as your justification for him being the better fit or the better pick. If you use that as your justification, that usually means you believe it was a good reason. And in this case, it isn't. Because NBA ready doesn't mean anything when it comes to the Clippers and what they should have taken.

No, Gadzuric is not a bad example. It's a perfect example.

Dan Gadzuric is 23(maybe 24), and has years of american basketball experience from an elite Division 1 school. He is much, much more NBA ready in terms of experience than Nene Hilario. I actually think Hilario was one of the Top 3 players in the draft, but he's not going to be a star immediately. It's going to take a few years for him to be great. Gadzuric is more experienced, and therefore more ready to paly right away, even though in the long run, he shouldnt be able to hold Nene's jock.


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## basketball_jesus (Jun 15, 2002)

Sure Caron Bulter is NBA ready, NBA ready enough to sit on the bench behind Odom, Miles and Q. He will be a very good player in the mold of Paul Pierce, but Odom, Miles, and Q are all more "NBA ready" than him so he is worthless to the clips.


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## pharcyde (Jun 22, 2002)

*The REAL trade*

If you haven't seen it, pick up the sports illustrated with Ichiro on the cover. It has all the details of the trade and an article explaining why it didn't go down. It didn't seem to me like it was anybody's fault really just a bit of confusion on both sides, moreso on the Clippers' side though. The trade was supposed to be Odom and the 8th pick, who LAC THOUGHT was supposed to be Wilcox, but Cleveland changed their minds and wanted Bulter. LA called in the trade a little early because Sterling and Baylor were not in the same room and were communicating by phone. This caused them to hurry a little and they still had a minute left to decide. I wouldn't say it was really their fault that the trade didn't go down though, because Cleveland didn't tell them to draft Butler anyway.

Now, about what I think of the trade. I agree that they need to keep Ely and trade Wilcox, and wouldn't mind giving up Jaric as well. Odom is expendable because of Miles, who won't be up for big money for a couple of years, so even if they're not going to keep the team together and pay them all they'll be together for more time. Ideally I'd like to see them get Andre Miller for Odom, Jaric and Wilcox. Yes, LA is giving up more than they're getting in return, but that's how trades work. Miller is more valuable to them now than Odom, Jaric, and Wilcox are anyway.


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## Spurs4Life (Jul 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by *The X Factor *
> What the hell is Elgin Baylor smoking? The Clippers already have Elton Brand. why do they need 2 other young PF? When interviewed, he said that they probably won't acquire Andre Miller. So, why did he draft 2 PF if he doesn't plan on trading them?
> 
> I really thought that Miller would be going to LA, especially when the Cavs selected Dajuan Wagner with the 6th pick. Ricky Davis is a SG, so Wagner would have to play PG. This whole draft just isn't making much sense.:no:


You make perfect sense. I have no idea why Sterling drafted *two* power forwards in the draft! He must be crazy.


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## blove84 (Jul 16, 2002)

Odom is supposed to be traded for Marion. I don't know if I like this trade. I think both of these players have equal talent and why would u want to mess up the chemistry of the team??


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## Bully (Jul 15, 2002)

*Lets not get bent out of shape yet*

I believe the Clips have something up their sleeve and will pull a rabbit out of the hat shortly. The tell tale sign is that Wilcox and Ely are the only two first round picks not participating in Summer Legue play. Can only conclude the Clips don't want their trade bait injured. 

Bully


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## Louie Bilowitz (Jul 15, 2002)

RD, you have a great mind for the game and the only one that truly understands the situation. First, guys, Ely does have the ability to play center. He has a great 5 body. In addition, he has the ability to score, and Kandi still has not quite proven himself offensively. Ely will challenge Kandi. Either way, Ely will be more of a key player than Rooks, who has seen his best days. So Ely can play the 5 and the 4. This leaves Wilcox to back up Brand. So where is the depth problem? This will give minutes to both rookies, end of logjam. So, not a stupid draft at all. I also question whether you rape the depth of the team to get BD, whom I do think is a great pg. Dre is good, but not the scorer. He led in assists, but Miles and Kandi are not the finishers we need, so BD is a better fit. But beware of trading 3 players for 1 and ruining the depth as Jaric will do well. Honestly, trading one of the SF does make sense in ONLY 1 way. Eventually, you will have to pay both Miles and Odom big contracts so we will lose one of them some day. If we can lose one now, preferably the unreliable Odom, plus one other for BD, I would do it. Maggette would be fine as a backup and plays 2 as well. At the most, I would trade Odom and Wilcox or Ely for BD. But first, patience is key. First, let Jaric try out so that we can see how he would fit in. He would have been a top 5 pick in this lottery, and you trade nuts would be quiet if that happened. He is big, shot 64%, excellent passer, and hard nose defender. If he fits in, even if he is not quite BD, you have kept the best depth in the entire NBA. 
Take last year's team, which almost made playoffs, add a healthy Odom, Wilcox, Ely, and Jaric and man, you have a wonderful team to root for..........................


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## basketball_jesus (Jun 15, 2002)

Louie,
The Clippers could mantain their depth and still make a 3-1 trade for either BD or Andre3000. Kandi and Brand will both start, and they will play something inbetween 35-40 minutes a game. This leaves 8-13 minutes at both the four and five when Kandi and EB rest. The solution? Melvin Ely can play both PF and Center and will be able to step in and play those minutes. (He's 24). But what if Brand and Kandi are out at the same time? Play Darius at PF. Sure some people will look at his build and laugh, but he played a bit of powerforward last year, and he held his own. If the Clippers are smart, they can play these players and free up Wilcox for trade bait. Then in the backcourt you have Odom starting at the 3 and Q starting at the 2. Darius Miles and Pike will be able to back them both up, and Jaric can play some SG too. This frees up Corey Maggette to be traded. Then at the Point we have Dooling and Jaric, and Odom can play some point guard too. If we play Jaric at backup and some at the 2, we can package Dooling, Wilcox, and Maggette for a star point guard, and still be a deep team. This is still a deep team, only now the talent is more evenly spread.


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## Louie Bilowitz (Jul 15, 2002)

*wilcox and ely*

B.J.

You made your point eloquently and with excellent common sense. I would make that trade just as you said. However, I would not use any other players in place of Magette. I do have one thought, however. In the future, how will you be able to please and more importantly pay, both Miles and Odom. It is not conceivable that you could. Perhaps we should trade the unreliable Odom and keep Magette who will be pleased to back up Miles. Now that throws the balance off, so that New ORleans would have to ante up someone else....ANy thoughts?....Once again, I also have to bring up the fact that Jaric might turn out to be a big time player making a trade unnecessary.......Yes, I love BD and would like to see him here. But it is New Orleans that should be sweating the issue, and if BD untimately refuses to sign, then we would be able to get him for less than a 3 players swap...........But well done in your argument. You presented your case like a pro!


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## basketball_jesus (Jun 15, 2002)

Thanks Louie. Here are my thoughts on the whole Lamar Odom and Darius Miles thing. It took me a while to get around to this, RD helped me figure it out, but it goes like this. Both Odom and Miles are versitle players. Odom can play anything from point to center, and Miles can play some SG, SF, and a bit of PF. Miles and Odom have drasticly diffrent games. Odom is a playmaker, and Miles is a finisher. Just becasue they are both about 6'10 doesn't mean you can't play them together. Think of the posible line-ups you could have with these versitle players. Note: These are lineups if we trade Maggette Wilcox and Dooling for Andre or Baron

PG- Odom SG- Q SF- Miles PF- Brand C- Kandi

PG- Baron or Andre SG- Q SF- Odom PF- Miles C-Kandi

PG- Andre or Baron SG- Odom SF- Darius PF- Brand C- Kandi

Or you could really mix it up and go for a fast paced transition team

PG- Andre or Baron SG- Jaric SF- Q PF- Darius C- Odom

The list goes on and on. Why throw away the endless posabilities of these two when you don't have to? Odom and Miles are both still improving and at thier best Odom and Miles are better than Miles and Baron or Andre. This is why I say we keep Odom around. He is a do-all player who will make the play for his team, no matter what that play is.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by *RD *
> No, Gadzuric is not a bad example. It's a perfect example.
> 
> Dan Gadzuric is 23(maybe 24), and has years of american basketball experience from an elite Division 1 school. He is much, much more NBA ready in terms of experience than Nene Hilario. I actually think Hilario was one of the Top 3 players in the draft, but he's not going to be a star immediately. It's going to take a few years for him to be great. Gadzuric is more experienced, and therefore more ready to paly right away, even though in the long run, he shouldnt be able to hold Nene's jock.


I'll go over this swiftly, cause when reading through this disgusted me.

Gadzuric is nowhere near more NBA ready then Hilario, and if he is that means anyone who played college basketball is more ready then someone who comes from Europe. I guess everyone was more NBA ready then Pau Gasol last season, because the players from last years draft had experience in the American game. But that's not the truth..

Gadzuric might be more experienced, but he's just about as raw on both ends as Hilario, except Hilario is a better border/defender then Gadzuric. The general consensus before the draft was that Hilario could be played right away at the PF, while his offensive side of the game developed. While Gadzuric had no hope of starting anywhere, because really Gadzuric has accomplished as much in four years of college as Lenny Cooke accomplished in his senior year of high school.

-Tim


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## RD (Jun 10, 2002)

Nope, Gasol is irrelevant. It was widely known that he has a refined offensive set of skills when he came over.

Nothing about Hilario is refined. He has no polish on offense, and on defense, he fouls too much.

It's going to take awhile for him to make an impact. Hilario was my favorite player in the draft, but I understand that he is extremely raw and is not going to have a big impact any time soon.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by *RD *
> Nope, Gasol is irrelevant. It was widely known that he has a refined offensive set of skills when he came over.
> 
> Nothing about Hilario is refined. He has no polish on offense, and on defense, he fouls too much.
> ...


That's where I agree with you RD. But still all I'm saying is the comparison to Gadzuric is a horrible one, because Gadzuric is just as raw. If you compared him to Melvin Ely, I'd understand.

But we're talking about Gadzuric.. Gadzuric.. Gadzuric.. not Ely..

Okay, I'll quit  

-Tim


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