# MJ vs Lebron



## King_james (May 19, 2013)

Today I saw this interesting reddit post/debate http://www.squidoo.com/michael-jordan-vs-lebron-james . Do you think LeBron could really surpass MJ, I think he can cause for example at this age MJ had same amount of rings as LeBron, while Lebron has 2 MVPs more.What do you guys think?


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## Xeneise (Jul 5, 2010)

Not sure who wrote that, but 1992 was no where near MJ's best statistical season.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

LeBron needs six titles before it's even a discussion.


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

This topic is so outplayed.

Obviously Lebron can have a better career than MJ. Anyone can.

And MJ needs 7 rings to even be in the discussion with Robert Horry.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

doctordrizzay said:


> This topic is so outplayed.
> 
> Obviously Lebron can have a better career than MJ. Anyone can.
> 
> And MJ needs 7 rings to even be in the discussion with Robert Horry.


Unfortunately Jordan can't go back in time, and become a defined role player. Like Robert Horry, MJ was the captain and catalyst as the best player in the world on the last NBA Dynasty... won every single ring and Finals MVP with the same team...

Horry, good player, no doubt, but got run in the league with the Dream, Shaq, Kobe, and Parker,Duncan. Let's not pretend his seven rings were being ushered in by his sheer brilliance and desire. He added what was needed in the gaps, and did it well. But those chips have more to do with the best players on his teams .. than him. We can't replace the Dream, Shaq, and Duncan with anyone else .. 

Yeah LBJ got a long way to go B4 we start comparing careers with MJ.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

23AJ said:


> Unfortunately Jordan can't go back in time, and become a defined role player. Like Robert Horry, MJ was the captain and catalyst as the best player in the world on the last NBA Dynasty... won every single ring and Finals MVP with the same team...
> 
> Horry, good player, no doubt, but got run in the league with the Dream, Shaq, Kobe, and Parker,Duncan. Let's not pretend his seven rings were being ushered in by his sheer brilliance and desire. He added what was needed in the gaps, and did it well. But those chips have more to do with the best players on his teams .. than him. We can't replace the Dream, Shaq, and Duncan with anyone else ..
> 
> Yeah LBJ got a long way to go B4 we start comparing careers with MJ.


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## l0st1 (Jul 2, 2010)

23AJ said:


> Unfortunately Jordan can't go back in time, and become a defined role player. Like Robert Horry, MJ was the captain and catalyst as the best player in the world on the last NBA Dynasty... won every single ring and Finals MVP with the same team...
> 
> Horry, good player, no doubt, but got run in the league with the Dream, Shaq, Kobe, and Parker,Duncan. Let's not pretend his seven rings were being ushered in by his sheer brilliance and desire. He added what was needed in the gaps, and did it well. But those chips have more to do with the best players on his teams .. than him. We can't replace the Dream, Shaq, and Duncan with anyone else ..
> 
> Yeah LBJ got a long way to go B4 we start comparing careers with MJ.


If I had to guess, Drizzay is simply pointing out that # of championships isn't the defining statistic in a players career.


Every time this topic is started it goes straight to # of Championships/MVPs. How about we just focus on the actual players themselves. Their games. Their statistical dominance etc. Not just accolades that are really at the mercy of the team/front office to build the actual team around them. Jordan is obviously a dominant player(and GOAT) but he probably wouldn't of had those rings(and possibly those MVPs) without the Bulls putting Pippen/Rodma(maybe even Grant/Harper) around him to make it a team. Just like Lebron couldn't get it done in Cleveland(though he made a hell of a try).


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

l0st1 said:


> If I had to guess, Drizzay is simply pointing out that # of championships isn't the defining statistic in a players career.
> 
> 
> Every time this topic is started it goes straight to # of Championships/MVPs. How about we just focus on the actual players themselves. Their games. Their statistical dominance etc. Not just accolades that are really at the mercy of the team/front office to build the actual team around them. Jordan is obviously a dominant player(and GOAT) but he probably wouldn't of had those rings(and possibly those MVPs) without the Bulls putting Pippen/Rodma(maybe even Grant/Harper) around him to make it a team. Just like Lebron couldn't get it done in Cleveland(though he made a hell of a try).


A hell of a try in my opinion is a huge understatement. I think people don't take into account how much of an impact he made for the Cavaliers when he played for them. I think if anything, what he did in Cleveland should add onto his legacy, not tarnish it like many people suggest it does.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

I don't consider titles the be-all, end-all, but they are pretty important. And seeing as LeBron does not have Jordan's numbers (4 seasons of well over 30 ppg on well over 50% shooting, plus a few more seasons of right about 30 and 50%), he would at least need to equal Jordan in titles before it becomes a real discussion. The only two seasons of LeBron's career that could even be considered Jordan-esque are this season and last season. 

Did those incompetent ****tards in Cleveland sabotage LeBron by giving him shit teammates? Yes. But anything LeBron/the Cavs could have accomplished otherwise is all conjecture. Alternate realities aren't terribly relevant to who's better discussions.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Titles mean nothing in individual comparisons. No player has ever won an NBA championship. 

In terms of peak value, LeBron can absolutely be compared to Jordan. He has put together some of the most impactful and statistically dominant seasons ever while being a dominant defender in the process, much like Jordan. 

In terms of career, obviously LeBron can't compare yet, because he hasn't finished his career. He is 28. We can't fairly compare their careers for a few more years because Jordan has the easy advantage right now.


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

l0st1 said:


> *If I had to guess, Drizzay is simply pointing out that # of championships isn't the defining statistic in a players career.*
> 
> 
> Every time this topic is started it goes straight to # of Championships/MVPs. How about we just focus on the actual players themselves. Their games. Their statistical dominance etc. Not just accolades that are really at the mercy of the team/front office to build the actual team around them. Jordan is obviously a dominant player(and GOAT) but he probably wouldn't of had those rings(and possibly those MVPs) without the Bulls putting Pippen/Rodma(maybe even Grant/Harper) around him to make it a team. Just like Lebron couldn't get it done in Cleveland(though he made a hell of a try).


Ding Ding Ding we have a winner. Someone actually got it on this board for once. Kudo's to you my friend.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

being the lead dog on a title team however, is meaningful - but it still needs to be contextualized


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

e-monk said:


> being the lead dog on a title team however, is meaningful - but it still needs to be contextualized


Being the best player on the team that wins a championship seems to mean just that, and not much more. It's not a reason to say Chauncey Billups is better than Chris Paul.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Titles mean nothing in individual comparisons. No player has ever won an NBA championship.


Great players win championships, providing the pieces around them are in place.



> In terms of peak value, LeBron can absolutely be compared to Jordan. He has put together some of the most impactful and statistically dominant seasons ever while being a dominant defender in the process, much like Jordan.


87-88... 35.0ppg/53.5 FG%
88-89... 32.5ppg/53.8 FG%
89-90... 33.6ppg/52.6 FG%
90-91... 31.5ppg/53.9 FG%

All while being _the best_ defender in the league. Not just dominant. The only seasons LeBron's had that can even compete with that or anything Jordan did from 87-93 (seven seasons) are this season and last season.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Being the best player on the team that wins a championship seems to mean just that, and not much more. It's not a reason to say Chauncey Billups is better than Chris Paul.


by itself no it's not, but it certainly belongs on the resume - of course you have to factor in the teammates and the competition faced and other variables but to say it's meaningless? if Mike never wins any championships, no one talks about him being the GOAT


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Floods said:


> Great *teams* win championships


Fixed. 



Floods said:


> 87-88... 35.0ppg/53.5 FG%
> 88-89... 32.5ppg/53.8 FG%
> 89-90... 33.6ppg/52.6 FG%
> 90-91... 31.5ppg/53.9 FG%
> ...


I agree Jordan was a better scorer, if that's what you're attempting to prove by posting scoring totals and scoring efficiency (although FG% is a horribly uninformative statistic when talking about scoring efficiency). Jordan was never the all-around player than LeBron is, though. LeBron is clearly a better passer than Jordan was, better rebounder, while also being a dominant scorer of great efficiency. And calling LeBron _the best_ defender in the league right now is every bit as credible as saying Jordan was back then. The league was just more open to (offensive) superstars getting defensive awards back then. Not so much anymore (Tim Duncan has never won a DPoY). LeBron is great as a help defender, an on-ball defender, and is far more versatile defensively than Jordan was (guarding everyone from 6'1 Derrick Rose to 7'0 Pau Gasol effectively). 

The argument for LeBron is there if you aren't hypnotized by titles. And if you are, I'm not sure why you'd have Jordan (or anyone) over Russell on your all-time lists. 11 > 6.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

e-monk said:


> by itself no it's not, but it certainly belongs on the resume - of course you have to factor in the teammates and the competition faced and other variables but to say it's meaningless? *if Mike never wins any championships, no one talks about him being the GOAT*


That's largely the problem. 

Titles belong on a resume, but they don't add value to an individual player in comparison to other individuals. It's like if a player beat a life threatening disease to come back and be an all-time great. That belongs on the resume as contributing to that players _greatness_, but it holds zero value when comparing to other players. It can't be used to trump other similar caliber players who _didn't_ beat a life threatening disease. It's a story. Winning a title is basically a nice story.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Titles matter. The point of playing any sport is to win. Not being the prettiest player on a hollinger stat line.

That being said, titles do need to be seen in the proper context, like the players role on the team, supporting cast, competition etc. but great players find a way to win titles. Can anyone name a guy in their top ten that doesn't have at least one title?


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Fixed.


Great players lead them there.



> I agree Jordan was a better scorer, if that's what you're attempting to prove by posting scoring totals and scoring efficiency (although FG% is a horribly uninformative statistic when talking about scoring efficiency). Jordan was never the all-around player than LeBron is, though. LeBron is clearly a better passer than Jordan was, better rebounder, while also being a dominant scorer of great efficiency.


Jordan is easily the better scorer and easily the better defender. LeBron for the most part averages a full rebound more than Jordan did in his prime seven years, while Jordan averages a full steal more than LeBron. Since either event ultimately equals a possession for your team, I'm willing to call push on that. So we're left with passing. LeBron is definitely the better passer, but that will not be nearly enough to unseat Jordan as the GOAT.



> And calling LeBron _the best_ defender in the league right now is every bit as credible as saying Jordan was back then. The league was just more open to (offensive) superstars getting defensive awards back then. Not so much anymore (Tim Duncan has never won a DPoY). LeBron is great as a help defender, an on-ball defender, and is far more versatile defensively than Jordan was (guarding everyone from 6'1 Derrick Rose to 7'0 Pau Gasol effectively).


First, I never said LeBron wasn't the best defender in the league right now. Jordan was better though.

Second, how did awards become a part of this? Individual awards that are voted on are bullshit.



> The argument for LeBron is there if you aren't hypnotized by titles. And if you are, I'm not sure why you'd have Jordan (or anyone) over Russell on your all-time lists. 11 > 6.


Because I already said that titles aren't the be-all end-all, they're just one of the factors. Albeit an important one.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Sir Patchwork said:


> That's largely the problem.
> 
> Titles belong on a resume, but they don't add value to an individual player in comparison to other individuals. It's like if a player beat a life threatening disease to come back and be an all-time great. That belongs on the resume as contributing to that players _greatness_, but it holds zero value when comparing to other players. It can't be used to trump other similar caliber players who _didn't_ beat a life threatening disease. It's a story. Winning a title is basically a nice story.


bullshit - if you cant tell me the difference between Mike and Chauncey or Chauncey and Paul just on the eye test alone then number of titles arent going to help you one way or another 

but being the main guy on a team *to the extent that Mike was *and winning multiple titles is deserving of significant credit and Lebron hasnt accomplished that yet - he might, he's set up to make a run at it - but he hasnt and that is one of the significant and tangible things that separates him from Mike


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

in other words the 'Horry has 7 rings' argument is fatuous - if you cant tell the difference between Horry's contributions to his title teams and Mike's to his you shouldnt be typing and Im surprised youre capable of it in the first place


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

There is no "proper context" for titles in individual comparisons. All it does is allow you to justify your bias and blurry the picture. As I stated before, no player has ever won an NBA championship. They don't award NBA championships to player, they issue them to teams.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

e-monk said:


> in other words the 'Horry has 7 rings' argument is fatuous - if you cant tell the difference between Horry's contributions to his title teams and Mike's to his you shouldnt be typing and Im surprised youre capable of it in the first place


Bill Russell is the greatest of all-time? He has MVP's and all kinds of individual awards. He was the best player on his team. He won 11 titles. He was voted the greatest player of all-time at the NBA's 30th (I believe) anniversary. 

Jordan was great, but never won 11 titles, so Jordan can't the GOAT? Until a player is the best player on a team that wins 11 titles, Bill Russell is the greatest player of all-time?


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

It blows my mind as to why mods don't close crap like this.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Because there's no reason for it to be closed.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Bill Russell is the greatest of all-time? He has MVP's and all kinds of individual awards. He was the best player on his team. He won 11 titles. He was voted the greatest player of all-time at the NBA's 30th (I believe) anniversary.
> 
> Jordan was great, but never won 11 titles, so Jordan can't the GOAT? Until a player is the best player on a team that wins 11 titles, Bill Russell is the greatest player of all-time?


your willful misunderstanding or misrepresentations are an excellent example of my point

Russell was the same to his team as Mike was to his? is that your contention? what are you blind? was Russell the leading scorer? the clutch go to guy? was he the focal point and fulcrum of his team's offense? no - what did Russell do? play defense and rebound and throw nice outlet passes - Mike played defense pretty damn well too plus all that other stuff - the bulls didnt have to have Cousy to run the offense or Jones to score and hit the clutch shots or Hondo to scour the permiter on D - they had all that in one guy

you want to say titles dont count, I disagree - titles should count you just need to understand the individual's contributions towards those titles - equating derek fisher's role on the lakers with shaq's would be a stupid thing to do wouldnt it? are you saying you're stupid?


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Knick Killer said:


> It blows my mind as to why mods don't close crap like this.


So much so that you had to bump it after an hour of inactivity.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

e-monk said:


> Russell was the same to his team as Mike was to his? is that your contention? what are you blind? was Russell the leading scorer? the clutch go to guy? was he the focal point and fulcrum of his team's offense? no - what did Russell do? play defense and rebound and throw nice outlet passes - Mike played defense pretty damn well too plus all that other stuff - the bulls didnt have to have Cousy to run the offense or Jones to score and hit the clutch shots or Hondo to scour the permiter on D - they had all that in one guy


It is not my contention that Russell was to his team what Jordan was to the Bulls (I'm not making a statement either way on that, because it's irrelevant). It is my contention that someone could use your lame ass reasoning to rank Russell over Jordan, and you would have to abandon your own reasoning to defend Jordan. You proved that quite nicely, because you actually started examining Jordan's individual abilities compared to Russell without looking at titles. That is *my* position. Thank you for the validiation. When you compare individuals for what they are without factoring titles, you get a much more honest comparison. 

*You* are the one saying a *team award* is relevant to comparing *individual players*, but you haven't given a valid reason why. 

You are saying if player A and player B have the same exact career, abilities, statistics, career path, and so on, and both play against each other in a game 7 of the NBA finals and both foul out on the same play in a tie game, that if Player A's team goes on to win that game, he is the better player than Player B because he has the team award on his resume and player B doesn't. *This* is your argument when push comes to shove in a comparison between players who are completely equal. You're saying external factors decide who the better player is. 

In a nutshell, using external factors that players have no control over to determine any aspect of their individual worth is one of the most illogical and absurd concepts in sports. I have yet to hear a good reason why they're relevant, and your poorly laid out arguments have been no exception. 

I am a firm believer that you can charge individual players for their shortcomings, whether physical or mental. If you believe a guy is not winning because he is a poor leader, performs poorly in big games, is hard to build around, or whatever, these are valid positions that can actually be examined and (possibly) disputed. 

When your position is that a player can't surpass another player because his team hasn't won enough team awards, and your defense is something like "You play the game to win, titles matter" excuse me if I don't take you serious. There is nothing in that position that can be examined. 

If people believe Jordan was better than LeBron on individual merit, I'm fine with that. There is certainly a great argument for that. When people throw out blanket statements like "LeBron can't pass Jordan until he got more rings" then that should be taken as seriously as "Jordan can't pass Russell until he got more rings"


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

This is pretty much the same argument Patches and I had a couple weeks ago regarding Chris Paul, so I won't go into it too much again. 

My thoughts are pretty much along the lines of what e-monk said. Just because there is no quantifiable way to compare one title to another (i.e. LeBron's 2012 title versus Darko's 2004 title) does not mean you just throw them out when evaluating players and careers. 

Here's what I said in the other thread:


> As I attempt to evaluate individual players, I take into account all relevant information I possibly can -- stats, personal observations, accolades, winning, etc. and attempt to filter out the positives and negatives that are beyond their control or aides them but they don't necessarily deserve credit for. Clearly it's an inexact science, but I just can't support ignoring the importance of winning because players have different circumstances. In my opinion, that's the job of the fan/evaluator to account for.


Winning is important. It's not a black and white, be all end all issue but that's why we have eyes and brains. It's one part of the equation. It needs to be part of, but not all of the equation. Removing it because players don't have the same exact circumstances and teammates is robbing yourself of relevant, critical information and lessens the credibility of your evaluation.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Bill Russell is the greatest of all-time? He has MVP's and all kinds of individual awards. He was the best player on his team. He won 11 titles. He was voted the greatest player of all-time at the NBA's 30th (I believe) anniversary.
> 
> Jordan was great, but never won 11 titles, so Jordan can't the GOAT? Until a player is the best player on a team that wins 11 titles, Bill Russell is the greatest player of all-time?


Agree. 

Jordan can't be the greatest over Russell or Kareem. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

Scoring: Jordan
Rebounding: Lebron
Passing: Lebron
Defense: Lebron, has the ability to defend 1 through 5. Can't top that.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

doctordrizzay said:


> Scoring: Jordan
> Rebounding: Lebron
> Passing: Lebron
> Defense: Lebron, has the ability to defend 1 through 5. Can't top that.


Really? Explain Conference Finals 2009 against the Orlando Magic.

But at the same time though, I want to see how much Lebron could score if he shot the ball the same amount of times Jordan did.


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

XxIrvingxX said:


> Really? Explain Conference Finals 2009 against the Orlando Magic.
> 
> But at the same time though, I want to see how much Lebron could score if he shot the ball the same amount of times Jordan did.


Wow one isolated incident, one series whoopty doo. Explain the rest of his career. Mainly after that.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

doctordrizzay said:


> Wow one isolated incident, one series whoopty doo. Explain the rest of his career. Mainly after that.


Well through out his career he has had very little success in consistently being able to guard centers. I would know, I watched almost every single game he played in while he was in Cleveland.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Mike 9 all NBA 1st team D selections, 1 DPoY
Lebron 5 and 0

still work for him to do there


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

also I forget, when did Lebron ever literally run the point for a season as Mike did under Collins?


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

e-monk said:


> also I forget, when did Lebron ever literally run the point for a season as Mike did under Collins?


I don't see why or how this could be used in this argument, we all know Lebron could easily run the point position if he wanted to, and do a much better job at it than Jordan ever did, he just simply doesn't need to. I think he's just better suited playing the SF position as a passing forward.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

you think he could literally play point guard and cover opposing point guards on a regular basis?


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

e-monk said:


> you think he could literally play point guard and cover opposing point guards on a regular basis?


It would be difficult, and he wouldn't be the best point guard out there, and his turnover amount would be pretty high, but with that said he's still a terrific passer, he's one of the best in the league at making others better, he can still score from anywhere on the floor and he is a terrific defender, so I think he would do a pretty good job of defending most PG's, but he would probably struggle a lot more on the defensive end than Jordan did when it came to defending guards (and the only guard I can think of that actually gave Jordan problems was Iverson haha).


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

doctordrizzay said:


> Scoring: Jordan
> Rebounding: Lebron
> Passing: Lebron
> Defense: Lebron, has the ability to defend 1 through 5. Can't top that.


Like I said above, LeBron averages about one rebound more than Jordan, while Jordan averages about one steal more. Since the result of either event is a possession for your team, it's a push.

Jordan's the better overall defender. LeBron is the better post defender, Jordan's by far the better perimeter defender.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

forget the steal differential Mike was a 2, who was his team's offensive focal point and defended on the perimeter and yet his rebounding is almost as good as a guy who routinely plays inside


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Jordan was already on the downside of his career when I was growing up, so I didn't get to see him as an elite defender, but is it safe to safe Jordan had a shorter length as an elite defender than LeBron? Maybe he had 7 years? I think LeBron has been one of the best defenders in the league since 2005 and he has many more years.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

LeBron wasn't an elite defender until 2009.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

e-monk said:


> also I forget, when did Lebron ever literally run the point for a season as Mike did under Collins?


His rookie season until they traded miles for mcinnis


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

Luke said:


> LeBron wasn't an elite defender until 2009.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App



2005 is when he became of the best defenders in the league. You just didn't start watching his games till 2009.


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## Bon]{eRz (Feb 23, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It is not my contention that Russell was to his team what Jordan was to the Bulls (I'm not making a statement either way on that, because it's irrelevant). It is my contention that someone could use your lame ass reasoning to rank Russell over Jordan, and you would have to abandon your own reasoning to defend Jordan. You proved that quite nicely, because you actually started examining Jordan's individual abilities compared to Russell without looking at titles. That is *my* position. Thank you for the validiation. When you compare individuals for what they are without factoring titles, you get a much more honest comparison.
> 
> *You* are the one saying a *team award* is relevant to comparing *individual players*, but you haven't given a valid reason why.
> 
> ...



It amazes me how underrated Bill Russell is - this is a guy who won 11 championships in 13 years, understood possibly better than anyone that the game is a team sport and did whatever was required of him to win (and he took the competition so seriously that he would throw up before the start of every game) compared to players of the Jordan/Kobe ilk who according to their own coaches needed to be convinced to put their teams ahead of looking to get their own stats (and this is one quality the Lebron has similar to Russell), he may be the only player in the discussion of GOAT who won a championship as player/coach, he gets knocked for only averaging 18ppg but he was the most highly regarded baller in a time where players had stats today's fans would drool over (the season that Wilt averaged 50 points/game, Oscar averaged a triple double, yet it was Bill Russell who won the regular season MVP award - that's all that needs to be said about how good Russell was considered to today's kids who's knock him for not being a scorer).

I agree 100% with your reasoning Patch, number of titles doesn't mean much in player comparison unless its put in context (like the fact that here Lebron's only had 2 seasons of playing with another all star on his team, compared to the 10 or so seasons that Jordan had to win his 6 titles. Or in comparing supporting casts the fact that when Lebron left Cleveland they won 30-40 less games the following year with pretty much the same roster, and yet when Jordan left the Bulls they only won something like 1 or 2 games less games without him). Like you say, its funny when this argument is brought up in comparing players, because using that same logic Bill Russell would be the undisputed GOAT.


It would be interesting to measure how much an individual contributed towards winning a title taking in account the quality of their teammates and competition, and use that for individual player comparisons. For instance imo Horry's 7 titles together aren't as impressive as the 1st title that Hakeem won, as the only player to ever win a championship without the help of another all star on his team. Absolute numbers don't mean much, as in this comparison 1 > 7.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

e-monk said:


> you think he could literally play point guard and cover opposing point guards on a regular basis?


sam vincent and john paxson played over 3400 minutes combined that season (not counting the 1100 + minutes by craig hodges)

jordan didn't defend point guards all that much ...not any more than any other season.

the bulls idea of MJ at point guard was give him the ball at the top of the key and send the 6'2 guy into the corner and if they doubled they'd get a kick out pass.

and its worth noting they didn't win as much that season ....they won 50 games the previous season and 55 the following year compared to 47 that season. they scrapped it after the season for good reason.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Alright, I'll play for a minute.

Taking championships out of the equation completely:

Lebron's advantages: more of a physical freak than Jordan. Same level of peak speed and explosiveness, but in a much bigger and longer body. That gives Lebron better defensive versatility (i.e, can defend many big men effectively which Jordan typically could not do). Also obviously makes him a better rebounder. 

Jordan's advantages: more creative scorer/deeper repertoire, and better high volume scorer. Better ability to work off the ball. Better mid-range shooter. More consistent wing defender. Practically invented the definition of the clutch gene; stepped up his game to another level at critical moments more than any player we've ever seen.

Too close to call: Ballhandling and passing ability (Lebron does more of it, but Jordan was practically as good at it). Overall defensive impact. Ability to play in a team system. Fast break/open court speed and finishing ability. 

Overall: Lebron has pretty much solidified his standing as an all-time great. Without sitting down and rank ordering everyone, I'd probably put him in the top 10, and after a full career of work he will probably end up top 3-5 of all time. I still think Michael Jordan was a better and more impactful player overall...really for the same reasons MJ is better than Magic, Wilt, Russell, etc. Lebron will come close and on some level already has, but to actually exceed Jordan, I just don't see that happening. That is before we even put championships into the mix which is IMO a very big part of it.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

yodurk said:


> Alright, I'll play for a minute.
> 
> Taking championships out of the equation completely:
> 
> ...


Good evaluation, although I think LeBron's advantage as a passer/floor general is as great as Jordan's advantage as a scorer. So I disagree with that being too close to call. I also think their defensive impact was about equal, maybe slight advantage to LeBron for versatility but agree that's too close to call. Jordan was certainly the better scorer. He was more creative in the lane, more aggressive as a scorer, and a better finisher around the hoop. He had a better midrange jumper as well.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Good evaluation, although I think LeBron's advantage as a passer/floor general is as great as Jordan's advantage as a scorer. So I disagree with that being too close to call. I also think their defensive impact was about equal, maybe slight advantage to LeBron for versatility but agree that's too close to call. Jordan was certainly the better scorer. He was more creative in the lane, more aggressive as a scorer, and a better finisher around the hoop. He had a better midrange jumper as well.


Thank you. Had a feeling that would be a point of disagreement among some. I don't blame anyone for having that opinion, it is certainly arguable. I disagree though, mainly because Jordan demonstrated that ability (passing/floor general) many times in his career when needed. But the thing is, he didn't need to do it much, nor should he, when he had several teammates who could do a perfectly adequate job of it. Jordan had the much harder skill to find in off-the-ball work combined with that scoring ability. The minute you start putting Jordan in a consistent playmaking role, you negate this latter skill to some degree. I've always argued since Lebron entered this league that he (Lebron) needs to learn more off-the-ball skills, and while he has gotten better, it is nowhere near what Jordan, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen or Rip Hamilton were capable of in their primes. So you put Lebron where his strengths are, which is on the ball at the top of the key where he can drive the open lane and make the pass as needed. Jordan's strength/style just happens to be very different from Lebron's.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

yodurk said:


> Thank you. Had a feeling that would be a point of disagreement among some. I don't blame anyone for having that opinion, it is certainly arguable. I disagree though, mainly because Jordan demonstrated that ability (passing/floor general) many times in his career when needed. But the thing is, he didn't need to do it much, nor should he, when he had several teammates who could do a perfectly adequate job of it. Jordan had the much harder skill to find in off-the-ball work combined with that scoring ability. The minute you start putting Jordan in a consistent playmaking role, you negate this latter skill to some degree. I've always argued since Lebron entered this league that he (Lebron) needs to learn more off-the-ball skills, and while he has gotten better, it is nowhere near what Jordan, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen or Rip Hamilton were capable of in their primes. So you put Lebron where his strengths are, which is on the ball at the top of the key where he can drive the open lane and make the pass as needed. Jordan's strength/style just happens to be very different from Lebron's.


I don't think Jordan was a bad passer, but roles aside, I don't think he was as good at surveying the floor and finding the open man. LeBron is pretty special in that way. I think Jordan was more like Kobe when it comes to passing. He garnered a lot of attention, and when doubled/tripled (a lot), he could find the open man consistently. LeBron finds pockets that aren't even the product of double teams. He is much quicker with the passes and almost always right on target. If any of the 5 defenders on the court is out of position, LeBron will expose it. I don't think Jordan was _that_ gifted with passing and seeing the floor. I agree that Jordan was better off the ball. I factor that into scoring, where Jordan has a clear advantage.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

doctordrizzay said:


> 2005 is when he became of the best defenders in the league. You just didn't start watching his games till 2009.


You obviously didn't watch any of his games either because Lebron was most certainly not an elite defender in 2005, let alone one of the best defenders in the league. He was a good defender, hell you could argue that he was a great defender, but even the biggest lebron butt lover would admit that he wasn't one of the best defenders in the league at that time, he was still learning. 

And I watched every single one of his games in 2005. I know for an absolute fact that he was not one of the best defenders in the league. Hell I would even go as far as saying that some of his teammates were better defenders than him.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

In Phil Jackson's new book he states he would take Bill Russell over Jordan if starting a franchise.

Maybe the sarcastic "Bill Russell is the GOAT!" comments should cease?


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I don't think Jordan was a bad passer, but roles aside, I don't think he was as good at surveying the floor and finding the open man. LeBron is pretty special in that way. I think Jordan was more like Kobe when it comes to passing. He garnered a lot of attention, and when doubled/tripled (a lot), he could find the open man consistently. LeBron finds pockets that aren't even the product of double teams. He is much quicker with the passes and almost always right on target. If any of the 5 defenders on the court is out of position, LeBron will expose it. I don't think Jordan was _that_ gifted with passing and seeing the floor. I agree that Jordan was better off the ball. I factor that into scoring, where Jordan has a clear advantage.


Like LeBron exposed the Indiana Pacers starting five tonight ? Two straight possessions Ray Allen was wide open, but David West deflected the pass, and the Pacers stole the ball. 

Let's not start acting like LeBron is flawless. He's far from it. Two huge turnovers at the last moments of a game, to cost your team.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Jamel Irief said:


> In Phil Jackson's new book he states he would take Bill Russell over Jordan if starting a franchise.
> 
> Maybe the sarcastic "Bill Russell is the GOAT!" comments should cease?


or maybe take what Phil says with a grain of salt?


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Like LeBron exposed the Indiana Pacers starting five tonight ? Two straight possessions Ray Allen was wide open, but David West deflected the pass, and the Pacers stole the ball.
> 
> Let's not start acting like LeBron is flawless. He's far from it. Two huge turnovers at the last moments of a game, to cost your team.


You were in the game thread last night, Patchwork even said a couple times last night that the gushing announcers were a little over the top regarding LeBron and his "Superman" performance.

With that said, the final minute of last night's game doesn't change anything. Particularly the first turnover, West just did a great job getting his hands up, got a little lucky and was able to make a great play. LeBron is still a very special passer and better than Jordan ever was. The argument is not that LeBron is flawless. Jordan wasn't either.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

hobojoe said:


> You were in the game thread last night, Patchwork even said a couple times last night that the gushing announcers were a little over the top regarding LeBron and his "Superman" performance.
> 
> With that said, the final minute of last night's game doesn't change anything. Particularly the first turnover, West just did a great job getting his hands up, got a little lucky and was able to make a great play. LeBron is still a very special passer and better than Jordan ever was. The argument is not that LeBron is flawless. Jordan wasn't either.


Read what I quoted by Patches. He said LeBron will always expose the other team, make, and find great passes when nothing is even really there. And than went on to compare Jordan to Kobe. 

All of which is asinine. Nobody is saying Jordan is perfect, but neither is Bron Bron. Not by a long shot. As we saw when Bron didn't expose the Pacers last night two key possessions down the stretch of the ECF Game two.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Read what I quoted by Patches. He said LeBron will always expose the other team, make, and find great passes when nothing is even really there. And than went on to compare Jordan to Kobe.
> 
> All of which is asinine. Nobody is saying Jordan is perfect, but neither is Bron Bron. Not by a long shot. As we saw when Bron didn't expose the Pacers last night two key possessions down the stretch of the ECF Game two.


How about you read it? This is what he actually said:



> *If any of the 5 defenders on the court is out of position,* LeBron will expose it.


Big difference. And LeBron played great last night, what are you even trying to argue? That because he committed two turnovers at the worst possible time he's not perfect? Nobody is arguing that he is. Give David West credit, especially on the first turnover.

You're just twisting words and making shit up because you're a die hard Pacers fan this week.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

hobojoe said:


> How about you read it? This is what he actually said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Pacers were out of position last night on the final play and James turned the ball over. Simple as that. And the play B4 that was a pick and pop/roll, pretty standard stuff, and James carelessly throws the ball right into West arms as he had them up B4 James even passed the ball. 

Hardly exposing anyone in my book.

Nobody is twisting anything. James dropped an egg in the final moments of the game during two possessions. If you're going to praise him when he does something great, you should be critical of him when he blows the game for his team as well. Nobody gets a pass. Not in the ECF or Finals the stakes are to high.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Expose expose expose


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

I'm sorry, since when did Lebron become Magic f-ing Johnson? A little perspective about his passing skills please


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

e-monk said:


> I'm sorry, since when did Lebron become Magic f-ing Johnson? A little perspective about his passing skills please


His passing skills are somewhere in between Jordan's and Magic's, I don't think that's a very controversial stance.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

the rhetoric flying around here is nothing so measured as that + I think people are underrating Mike's passing


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

23AJ said:


> Read what I quoted by Patches. He said LeBron will always expose the other team, make, and find great passes when nothing is even really there. And than went on to compare Jordan to Kobe.


Your argument is like saying Jordan isn't an all-time great scorer because he missed two shots in a row. Which is to say, your argument is bad. 

I am glad you're back on your LeBron hate though. I'll miss it in two days when you're the Miami Heat's biggest fan.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

FWIW, this may be the best video compilation on the web of Jordan's ability to see the floor and make the difficult pass: 




Probably better to just let people decide for themselves on if this matches Lebron's passing abilities or not. Too subjective to argue any further.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> In Phil Jackson's new book he states he would take Bill Russell over Jordan if starting a franchise.
> 
> Maybe the sarcastic "Bill Russell is the GOAT!" comments should cease?


For the record, I'm fine with believing Russell is the GOAT, just not for the reason of having 11 championships. I use him for an example because I know most people do not consider him the GOAT even though championships are an important part of their criteria.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Championships are just part of the pie. It'd be silly to put it as the primary criteria, but IMO just as silly to exclude it from the criteria completely. The significance of racking up 4, 5, 6 championships is impressive because it demonstrates sustained competitiveness and hunger to win in spite of people gunning for you more and more over time. That is a key quality of greatness that isn't well captured by any other statistic. 

While Russell's 11 titles buy him alot of points in the GOAT discussion, the rest of the pie is just as meaningful. Fact of the matter is there are many more superior players to Russell on the offensive side of the ball, plus the context of fewer teams being around back then. Though he was so good at his craft and had such an impact on the game unheard of in his era, he merits a seat at the discussion table.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

yodurk said:


> Championships are just part of the pie. It'd be silly to put it as the primary criteria, but IMO just as silly to exclude it from the criteria completely. The significance of racking up 4, 5, 6 championships is impressive because it demonstrates sustained competitiveness and hunger to win in spite of people gunning for you more and more over time. That is a key quality of greatness that isn't well captured by any other statistic.


It doesn't demonstrate sustained competitiveness and hunger to win for an individual, but at least now you're equating championships with individual characteristics. That's what I've been asking for, as a "championship" itself cannot be examined and debated as an individual quality, because it's not one. 

A player can be as competitive and hungry as is humanly possible, but without external factors lining up, it won't result in any team championships. Do you dispute this? Championships are not won by the team whose best player is the most competitive. Championships are won by the best team.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Your argument is like saying Jordan isn't an all-time great scorer because he missed two shots in a row. Which is to say, your argument is bad.
> 
> I am glad you're back on your LeBron hate though. I'll miss it in two days when you're the Miami Heat's biggest fan.


Wrong, I never said Jordan would expose a player if left open. Jordan missed tons of shots in his career. 

You made the assumption that LBJ exposes a team defense anytime a team is out of rotation. And that's just not true, in fact it's hyperbole. 

And suggesting Jordan is only par with Kobe in terms of passing , is laughable.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

yodurk said:


> FWIW, this may be the best video compilation on the web of Jordan's ability to see the floor and make the difficult pass: MICHAEL JORDAN THE PUPPETEER - YouTube
> 
> Probably better to just let people decide for themselves on if this matches Lebron's passing abilities or not. Too subjective to argue any further.


STRONG!

Jordan had amazing no look passing ability. And was creative. Beautiful highlight reel.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

The thing with Russell is that he went straight from the University of San Francisco to a team that had everything else that it needed to win a lot of titles. If Russell had been a white guy he'd have ended up with the St. Louis Hawks and it's a dead certainty that he'd have not won 11 titles there. Magic did the same thing, while Jordan went to a terrible team. In fact they were not very good even after they got him. 

Championships are always about organizations and teams, even if individual players are the most important ingredient. As I evaluate players LeBron is on a par with Jordan as a player, but he's only done that for the past three or four seasons. Jordan was basically that level of player for more than twice as long. Most specifically the difference was defense for the first part of Lebron's career. When Lebron started playing world class defense he got himself into the argument. He needs to keep on doing it though.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Lebron is not Magic Johnson in regards to his passing ability, but he's definitely got the edge against Jordan when it came to passing and unlike Jordan, making others better is something Lebron thrives off of. It isn't debatable, Lebron's better in terms of passing and assists.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

another way of saying that it is not in Lebron's natural makeup to be 'the man' so he often defers and it's taken him 7 or 8 years to learn how to be that guy and since it's not natural in him he can occasionally still revert and defer too much

sort of like how Pau manned up for two seasons/title runs but that level of physicality isnt really in his nature and so he often reverts to his Gasoft self


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

yodurk said:


> FWIW, this may be the best video compilation on the web of Jordan's ability to see the floor and make the difficult pass: MICHAEL JORDAN THE PUPPETEER - YouTube
> 
> Probably better to just let people decide for themselves on if this matches Lebron's passing abilities or not. Too subjective to argue any further.


its not really subjective at all.

jordan had great talent at all things basketball.

but having talent to do something and doing it are 2 different things ...and moreso doing it to the point it can be regularly counted on is another matter entirely.

jordan had the talent to be great passer, that is clear ...but he definitely didn't always display it...especially the first 7 or so years of his career.

if he did the pistons would never have devised the "jordan rules" he could not and would not consistently beat teams with the pass , he simply did not have the mindset to.

that changed as he got older and wiser to the power of playing within the team concept, even though he knew the piston's game plan , he consistently went 1 on whatever to try and beat them himself , because he didn't trust that his teammates could pick up the slack.

once jordan proved he was more willing to use his teammates to win he became much harder to beat. the end result was the bulls beat the pistons by sweeping them , ending their era and starting his own.

lebron is the opposite , he had to learn that the best basketball play is to sometimes be selfish, to not let the defense dictate his actions to make the correct play ....and once he proved he could and would take over games no matter what defenses threw at him , he also became much harder to beat.

the difference of being tim duncan and kevin garnett, both could get shots whenever they wanted but because tim learned to not always pass out and punish the defense when it suited him and his team, to give them the best chance at winning , he will go down as the best 4 of all time and garnett will not .


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## Mamba v2.0 (May 27, 2013)

Why is this even a discussion? Jordan would get into lebrons head before the game even started. Jordan would shut lebron down and would absolutely tear lebrick up on offense. Jordan had the killer instinct to take over games and a mental edge that only kobe has come close to matching. Until lebron comes through at the end of games by consistently closing...not just here and there. Sorry but lebron wouldnt have four mvps if jordan was in the league today. Lebron is closer to being more like magic johnson and thats a stretch because magic is a legend and i believe was a better player than lebron could ever dream of being. Lebron is overrated...after he won that title, everyone was on the bandwagon. A players legacy is matched by titles...not mvps. Finals mvp is where it really counts. If lebron is really as good as people say, he wouldve stayed in cleveland and delivered a title. Lebron is good...but hes not great. He had a good enough supporting cast to win a title. He needs 4 all-stars to win a ring (im including ray allen, rashard lewis, wade and bosh) plus battier. Pretty sad. I wanna see him win a ring by himself with a supporting cast. Jordan had scottie pippen and a bunch of role players. Not 3 other all-stars.


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## DWade06 (May 23, 2013)

No sure how to delete my double post


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Mamba v2.0 said:


> Why is this even a discussion? Jordan would get into lebrons head before the game even started. Jordan would shut lebron down and would absolutely tear lebrick up on offense. Jordan had the killer instinct to take over games and a mental edge that only kobe has come close to matching. Until lebron comes through at the end of games by consistently closing...not just here and there. Sorry but lebron wouldnt have four mvps if jordan was in the league today. Lebron is closer to being more like magic johnson and thats a stretch because magic is a legend and i believe was a better player than lebron could ever dream of being. Lebron is overrated...after he won that title, everyone was on the bandwagon. A players legacy is matched by titles...not mvps. Finals mvp is where it really counts. If lebron is really as good as people say, he wouldve stayed in cleveland and delivered a title. Lebron is good...but hes not great. He had a good enough supporting cast to win a title. He needs 4 all-stars to win a ring (im including ray allen, rashard lewis, wade and bosh) plus battier. Pretty sad. I wanna see him win a ring by himself with a supporting cast. Jordan had scottie pippen and a bunch of role players. Not 3 other all-stars.


Now THIS is pretty ****ing dumb.


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## DWade06 (May 23, 2013)

Rashard Lewis was lighting it up this year. Dennis Rodman wasn't a HOFer. Rashard Lewis? Really?


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## Mamba v2.0 (May 27, 2013)

Did you read what i said? Now lebron has 4 all-stars on this team...not saying lewis is any good anymore. Hes a spot up shooter and that is a stepretch. Jordan would destroy lebron. End of story. Pin gary payton on lebron and i guarntee lebron dont score over ten points. Are you just a biased heat fan? Because anyone who has any sense would agree. Lebron doesnt even measure up to jordan.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

LeBron wouldn't score over 10 points against Gary Payton? :laugh:


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## DWade06 (May 23, 2013)

LeBron is playing with 2 all stars. Because they are currently all stars. Ray Allen isn't 2001 Ray Allen and it is dumb to claim that. Rashard Lewis isn't an all star it's dumb to count him as an all star.


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## DWade06 (May 23, 2013)

Kobe was playing with a 3 time DPOY, a 25 a game Ron Artest, the best big man in the game Pau Gasol, a twk time MVP in Steve Nash yet barely made it to the playoffs


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

Mamba v2.0 said:


> Did you read what i said? Now lebron has 4 all-stars on this team...not saying lewis is any good anymore. Hes a spot up shooter and that is a stepretch. Jordan would destroy lebron. End of story. Pin gary payton on lebron and i guarntee lebron dont score over ten points. Are you just a biased heat fan? Because anyone who has any sense would agree. Lebron doesnt even measure up to jordan.


Really? The Glove on Lebron? Lebron is quick enough to guard Gary Payton in his prime. Gary Payton on the other hand has no where near enough strength to handle Lebron. Lebron would shoot over him, go around him, and when necessary: through him.

As for Jordan not having All Stars... he played with a bunch of All Stars not named Scottie Pippen, you're just flat out wrong.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Mamba v2.0 said:


> Did you read what i said? Now lebron has 4 all-stars on this team...not saying lewis is any good anymore. Hes a spot up shooter and that is a stepretch. Jordan would destroy lebron. End of story. Pin gary payton on lebron and i guarntee lebron dont score over ten points. Are you just a biased heat fan? Because anyone who has any sense would agree. Lebron doesnt even measure up to jordan.


Lebron doesn't have 4 all stars on his team. He has two, not including himself. You can mention the fact that Ray Allen and Richard Lewis were all stars at one point, but that's completely irrelevant to the fact that they are not only no longer all stars, but they are no where close to playing at an all star type level. So just that point alone is stupid and doesn't prove anything to help your argument. 

And Lebron wouldn't score 10 on Payton? Good lord, here's your new JBKB guys.


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

Mamba v2.0 said:


> Did you read what i said? Now lebron has 4 all-stars on this team...not saying lewis is any good anymore. Hes a spot up shooter and that is a stepretch. Jordan would destroy lebron. End of story. Pin gary payton on lebron and i guarntee lebron dont score over ten points. Are you just a biased heat fan? Because anyone who has any sense would agree. Lebron doesnt even measure up to jordan.


Thought you weren't a troll, but yea you are.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

doctordrizzay said:


> Thought you weren't a troll, but yea you are.


Trolls aren't allowed to call other people trolls.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

I really want to see drizzy and this new guy fight to the death. I'll bring the beers.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Floods said:


> I really want to see drizzy and this new guy fight to the death. I'll bring the beers.


I'll bring the popcorn and the seats, SOMEONE GET THOSE 3D GLASSMAJIGGERS!!


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## King_james (May 19, 2013)

I hate how everyone says how good role model MJ was, and how big of a villain is LeBron which is absolutely not true mostly cause of how media portrays LeBron. He really is a nice guy, and I heard many of stories that prove that. On the other side I heard hundreds of stories telling how douchy and hypocritical Jordan really is...


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## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

Mamba v2.0 said:


> Why is this even a discussion? Jordan would get into lebrons head before the game even started. Jordan would shut lebron down and would absolutely tear lebrick up on offense. Jordan had the killer instinct to take over games and a mental edge that only kobe has come close to matching. Until lebron comes through at the end of games by consistently closing...not just here and there. Sorry but lebron wouldnt have four mvps if jordan was in the league today. Lebron is closer to being more like magic johnson and thats a stretch because magic is a legend and i believe was a better player than lebron could ever dream of being. Lebron is overrated...after he won that title, everyone was on the bandwagon. A players legacy is matched by titles...not mvps. Finals mvp is where it really counts. If lebron is really as good as people say, he wouldve stayed in cleveland and delivered a title. Lebron is good...but hes not great. He had a good enough supporting cast to win a title. He needs 4 all-stars to win a ring (im including ray allen, rashard lewis, wade and bosh) plus battier. Pretty sad. I wanna see him win a ring by himself with a supporting cast. Jordan had scottie pippen and a bunch of role players. Not 3 other all-stars.


Skip Bayless is that you?


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Even Skip Bayless isn't that bad.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

23isback said:


> Skip Bayless is that you?


I think that's an insult to Skip Bayless.


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## Mamba v2.0 (May 27, 2013)

If Jordan was in the league now, he would take lebron out of the game mentally before it started. Jordan was far more dominant than lebron in almost every category. Six titles, dpoy award, stats...I can gp on and on except assists. It's easy to get the assists he gets with stacked team he's on. Jordan would kill lebron James. Don't say mj couldn't guard him cuz I've seen Bruce bowen lock him up. 
http://www.nba.com/history/players/jordan_stats.html


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Mamba v2.0 said:


> It's easy to get the assists he gets with stacked team he's on.


Really? Explain that season in Cleveland were he averaged 8.6 assists per game on a not so stacked team. 

You seriously do have an agenda, and I thought you were a troll at first but after seeing that you thought Ben was being serious about the Chris Anderson comment, I'm fully convinced you just know absolutely nothing at all about the game of basketball and spent all of your life getting excited when ever the name Kobe is mentioned.

Lebron gets the assists that he gets because he's simply that good. Making others better was one of his strengths in high school and was the reason he was the first overall pick in his draft. The fact you just tried to make an excuse for it pretty much shows you know nothing at all about him and are simply going off of the things butt hurt anti lebron morons say about him on youtube and god knows what other places you find those people on.


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## Mamba v2.0 (May 27, 2013)

So im talking about michael jordan, not kobe. Lebrons already getting the respect mj and kobe had to actually work for. Why? Oh wow, one ring. Jordan averaged 8 assists at one point too. Whats your point? Lol. It shows your just a blind Letard fan who refuses to see any flaw in his game. Michael would destroy lebron, end of story


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Mamba v2.0 said:


> So im talking about michael jordan, not kobe. Lebrons already getting the respect mj and kobe had to actually work for. Why? Oh wow, one ring. Jordan averaged 8 assists at one point too. Whats your point? Lol. It shows your just a blind Letard fan who refuses to see any flaw in his game. Michael would destroy lebron, end of story


And you're saying Lebron didn't work for his respect? Yes, he has one ring, but news flash, at that age, MJ had just got done winning his first ring. Lebron's got a long way to go still in his career, and yet we've already seen him do numerous things that no one other players in the history of the NBA have ever done. It's almost a guarantee he's going to be a top 5 all time great in this league, and it's a guarantee that he will surpass Kobe.

Now despite all of this, that doesn't mean I don't know what his flaws are. I know exactly what his flaws are, hell I watched him in almost every game that he played in Cleveland.

So what are his flaws? He tends to turn the ball over an awful lot, his decision making can be stupid, sometimes he tends to pass out when he should take the shot, his mid range game isn't consistent, his shot selection at times is terrible, and there are times where he can disappear completely from the free throw line.

Those are flaws of his I can think of off the top of my head. But what about his strengths? Well, he's a dynamic scorer who can score a basket from anywhere on the floor, he's developed a good post game, he's an elite defender, he thrives on making others better and does a great job of doing so, he's a great rebounder and he's great off the ball. And above all of this, he scores at a much more efficient rate than Kobe and MJ ever did. Doesn't mean I think Lebron is better than MJ, but MJ most certainly would not "destroy" Lebron, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron. MJ was not a god, he was the greatest basketball player to ever play the game, but just like Lebron, he also had his flaws, and he also lost on numerous occasions in the playoffs just like Lebron did.

I strongly suggest you learn a thing or two about the game of basketball before making another comment about this, because it's clearly obvious you don't watch much actual basketball. 

p.s. MJ was a PG that year when he averaged 8 assists per game, Lebron was a SF who didn't nearly get the ball as much as MJ did and he still managed more assists. You still want to make excuses for him?


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## Mamba v2.0 (May 27, 2013)

When did Jordan ever disappear from the free throw line? When did he ever pass out of shots when he should take them? I dont care if he was a point guard, he still averaged 32 ppg and a sky high fg%. Jordan was always pretty consistent. Your making my point more clear: lebron does not have a killer instinct that jordan had. Forget kobe, this is about jordan who came through more often than kobe has. But to say that lebron is better and more dominant than michael? Are you nuts? Id also like to see lebron win a dpoy, mvp and a finals mvp in the same year. Can lebron three-peat? Not in this day in age. The game has developed so much more. And if jordan was in the league now, he would still be the best because you cant hand check anymore. Jordan would easily average 40 ppg. It blows my mind you people are arguing lebron is better than jordan. Im not saying mr.irving is, but through this thread some people have hinted they think lebron is better which is simply not the case, and if that 96 bulls team was around now, they would easily trample whoever they played. Dont forget, they ran the triangle offense where there is no need for a great point guard. That offense was ran through Jordan and everyone else fell in wherever they were told to be. You think bosh would out rebound dennis rodman? No way. Dennis was a defensive master mind. Scottie pippen couldnt stop lebron, but lb would be forced into shooting jumpers and jordan would lock wade up and wade couldnt guard jordan if his life depended on it.


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## Mamba v2.0 (May 27, 2013)

I've been ordering NBA lp for quite awhile. I've been to 5 NBA games in Oakland. I watch basketball whenever It's on, live or ESPN classic. I played for 2 years in college also. I do know plenty about basketball. I've also coached city league teams who did quite well, some of the high school kids i coached have gone on to play college ball in sacramento and santa babara d2 colleges. They thank me for their success. Idk you. And you dont know me. For you to insult my knowledge is fine, but for everyone to say lebron is better? Lebron has one advantage: he is stronger. Thats all. Could lebron take the punishment the bad boys of detroit gave michael? I dont think so. Lebron will win one, maybe two more rings, depending on kevin durants development as a complete player.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

DWade06 said:


> Kobe was playing with a 3 time DPOY, a 25 a game Ron Artest, the best big man in the game Pau Gasol, a twk time MVP in Steve Nash yet barely made it to the playoffs


Kobe's also never been out of the first round without an all-star center. Draft 18-year-old Kobe onto a franchise with poor management and it's Kevin Garnetts' career all over again.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Mamba v2.0 said:


> When did Jordan ever disappear from the free throw line? When did he ever pass out of shots when he should take them? I dont care if he was a point guard, he still averaged 32 ppg and a sky high fg%. Jordan was always pretty consistent. Your making my point more clear: lebron does not have a killer instinct that jordan had.


How is that making your point more clear? A killer instinct doesn't mean shooting the ball like crazy and hoping to score. You're forgetting that Lebron's best strength is making plays for others. And even then, we've seen numerous times where Lebron has displayed that he has a killer instinct when it comes to scoring when he's needed to.



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Forget kobe, this is about jordan who came through more often than kobe has. But to say that lebron is better and more dominant than michael? Are you nuts?


I never claimed Lebron was more dominant than Michael. I pointed out areas that Lebron was stronger than him in, but I still stated that I think MJ is the better player of the two.



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Id also like to see lebron win a dpoy, mvp and a finals mvp in the same year. Can lebron three-peat? Not in this day in age.


Why? Jordan never did that. So why should Lebron need to do so?

And what do you mean not in this day and age? That's the most idiotic statement you could possibly make. Lebron could most definitely get a three peat. All he has to do is make it to the finals this year, beat San Antonio (which will most likely happen) and then have his team make it to the finals again next year and beat what ever team faces them. It's not rocket science. 



Mamba v2.0 said:


> The game has developed so much more. And if jordan was in the league now, he would still be the best because you cant hand check anymore. Jordan would easily average 40 ppg. It blows my mind you people are arguing lebron is better than jordan.


Why? I don't think it's true, but it can certainly be argued. Just like it can be argued that Magic was better than Michael, or Wilt (even if I think both aren't true). A good argument could easily be made. 



Mamba v2.0 said:


> Im not saying mr.irving is,


You clearly said that I was saying that at the beginning of your post... 



Mamba v2.0 said:


> but through this thread some people have hinted they think lebron is better which is simply not the case, and if that 96 bulls team was around now, they would easily trample whoever they played. Dont forget, they ran the triangle offense where there is no need for a great point guard. That offense was ran through Jordan and everyone else fell in wherever they were told to be. You think bosh would out rebound dennis rodman? No way. Dennis was a defensive master mind. Scottie pippen couldnt stop lebron, but lb would be forced into shooting jumpers and jordan would lock wade up and wade couldnt guard jordan if his life depended on it.


So you're saying neither Jordan or Lebron would be stopped if they played each other? Okay so shouldn't that mean that either side could easily win? I mean yea sure the Bulls would have a rebounding advantage and I would give the defensive advantage to the Bulls as well, but the Miami Heat are a fantastic 3 point shooting team, the Heat winning could definitely be a possibility.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

Mamba v2.0 said:


> I've been ordering NBA lp for quite awhile. I've been to 5 NBA games in Oakland. I watch basketball whenever It's on, live or ESPN classic. I played for 2 years in college also. I do know plenty about basketball. I've also coached city league teams who did quite well, some of the high school kids i coached have gone on to play college ball in sacramento and santa babara d2 colleges. They thank me for their success. Idk you. And you dont know me. For you to insult my knowledge is fine, but for everyone to say lebron is better? Lebron has one advantage: he is stronger. Thats all. Could lebron take the punishment the bad boys of detroit gave michael? I dont think so. Lebron will win one, maybe two more rings, depending on kevin durants development as a complete player.


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## DWade06 (May 23, 2013)

There will be someone better than MJ, it may turn out to be LeBron, it may not, but MJ will not always be the GOAT. Some of you need to understand that... Mamba


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## King_james (May 19, 2013)

DWade06 said:


> There will be someone better than MJ, it may turn out to be LeBron, it may not, but MJ will not always be the GOAT. Some of you need to understand that... Mamba


Exactly


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## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

You know shit just got real when the resumés start coming out.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

Mamba v2.0 said:


> I've been ordering NBA lp for quite awhile. I've been to 5 NBA games in Oakland. I watch basketball whenever It's on, live or ESPN classic. I played for 2 years in college also. I do know plenty about basketball. I've also coached city league teams who did quite well, some of the high school kids i coached have gone on to play college ball in sacramento and santa babara d2 colleges.


That may be so, but drizzay has been a LeBron fan since before you were in diapers. Don't be disrespectful my dude. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com App


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

I find that if you have to unpack the resume you're probably on the losing side of the argument - doesnt matter if you're a nobel laureate if you're saying something dumb it's still dumb


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Ben said:


> That may be so, but drizzay has been a LeBron fan since before you were in diapers. Don't be disrespectful my dude.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com App


Keep it G homey.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Ben said:


> That may be so, but drizzay has been a LeBron fan since before you were in diapers. Don't be disrespectful my dude.


Checkmate.


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