# Best Andrea Comparison



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

Now we've heard A LOT of Dirk comparisons, and even Gasol comparisons. But Andrea is a much different player than those guys.

I see the best comparison as Rasheed Wallace. 

Just think about it. 

I really think Andrea can develop into the same type of player as Rasheed, which would be an excellent fit next to Bosh. 

I mean obviously Andrea will be his own type of player, but I don't think any comparison comes close to his upside, and skill level than Rasheed right now.

Both of them love the 3 point shot, and sometimes rely on it too much. 

Both of them aren't good rebounders for there position. Andrea does have a way to go before he even gets to Sheed's level though. 

Both of them are good post defenders. Again, Andrea has a ways to go, as Rasheed is one of the best defenders in the league. But honestly, with Andreas length, quickness and good one on one defensive fundamentals, I see no reason why he cant be as good. 

Both aren't known to have the best basketball IQ, and dont utilize there talents to the fullest. Many people think Rasheed could be one of the best players in the league with his talent. I agree. He never developed a post game, and instead does most of his offensive work on the perimeter. This is a big knock against Andrea right now, I don't see him ever being much of a post player.

So there it is, the best comparison there is .. I know many of you will either say "Andrea can be way better than Rasheed" or "Andrea isn't even close to a player like Rasheed"

To answer the first one, I agree.. Andrea CAN be better than Rasheed. He has that type of potential. But being as good as Rasheed is no knock against Andrea. Rasheed is a hell of a player.. and much like Rasheed, it could be Andreas unwillingness to bang in the post on offense, and get in there and grab rebounds that could hold him back.

To the second one, I also agree lol.. at this point Andrea isn't close to Rasheed but this is just a comparison in terms of there playing style, and to the type of player Andrea could develop into.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Rasheed has a deadly post game. Like KG, his fadeaway is unblockable. Bargnani's rebounding isn't just "below average", it's the worst I've ever seen. I thought Jason Collins was bad, but he's not quick off the floor, can't jump high, and has average arms. Bargnani is pretty athletic and longer than Collins, so what's his excuse?

Any 7 footer that gets less than 4 RPG in 20+ minutes (and by any, I mean only Bargnani- is there any other?) is a disgrace.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Rasheed's post game is much better than Andrea's, but like Andrea, Sheed often refuses use it. When he did go in the paint during the years when Blazers were amongst the elite teams, his fadeaway was practically unstoppable. However it wasn't until Sheed joined the Pistons that he stopped parking along the 3pt arc.

I don't think Sheed is a good comparison though. Andrea is more mobile than Sheed, but Sheed is way better defensively than Bargnani. Emotionally the 2 are totally opposite. If Bargnani can carry some of Sheed's fire for the game he would improve dramatically.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Rasheed has a great post-game on offence and is one of the better post defenders in the league.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

other then the obvious of dirk.. who i dont think is that great a rebounder either.. and i know its not even close to the same level talent as i write this

HE DOES NOT MEAN ANDREA IS AS GOOD AS RASHEED RIGHT NOW

i agree with wallace, i see what you mean, not near the offensive post skill _yet_, not near the rebounding & toughness _yet_, and not as sound defensively _yet_ but i see the comparison.. i was impressed & respected bargnani defence on tim duncan & yao ming,.. for what it was


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

southeasy said:


> HE DOES NOT MEAN ANDREA IS AS GOOD AS RASHEED RIGHT NOW
> 
> i agree with wallace, i see what you mean, not near the offensive post skill _yet_, not near the rebounding & toughness _yet_, and not as sound defensively _yet_ but i see the comparison.. i was impressed & respected bargnani defence on tim duncan & yao ming,.. for what it was


thank you.

i see bargnani DEVELOPING into the same type of player, as a i mentioned on my post.. 

i mean they really have a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses. obviously bargnani has a ways to go to improve those strengths to rasheeds level, but he's still young.

am i hearing rasheed has a GREAT post game? :|.. I mean, he has that fadeaway jumper that is nice, but he hardly ever uses it, much like barney, he seems to be allergic to the post.. and i dont see why bargnani cant develop that shot, we've already seen flashes of it..


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I was thinking of this comparison the other day but I really don't think it's all that close, aside from them both being elite bigman shooters, and a lot of it comes down to how they move. Bargnani is a forward moving player, with a first step, that likes to finish off one foot. Sheed is not a dribbler and his inside game has always been based around powering up off both legs. I've certainly never seen him fake the 3 and drive all the way to the hoop. Their defense, played with solid, standup length is probably the most similar part of their games aside from the shooting, though Bargnani will likely never get to Sheed's level. Sheed's post up game is very simplistic but VERY effective and should probably be the way that Andrea develops his - get deep and use a high released shot.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

When I saw the title of this thread I wondered who they might come up with and for some reason the name that popped into my head was Rik Smits, the flying Dutchman. A finesse C with great shooting touch. I have no idea what Smits career stats were like but he was a big time player for the Pacers when they went to the Finals despite having really bad foot problems that shortened his career. Not a 3pt shooter like Bargs but I think he was a faceup style C.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> I don't think Sheed is a good comparison though. Andrea is more mobile than Sheed, but Sheed is way better defensively than Bargnani. Emotionally the 2 are totally opposite. If Bargnani can carry some of Sheed's fire for the game he would improve dramatically.


I agree that they are a bad comparison - but Sheed is not mobile? Especially Sheed at AB's age? The guy could run the floor like a deer. If you want someone that is remarkably like Sheed in a lot of parts of his game - it is Aldridge. The same unblockable high-release, the same speed down the court. Sheed is a better power low post player, but Aldridge has a much better hook-shot down-low. Sheed is a better low-post defender but Aldridge is a better defender on the switch - it is very hard to get past Aldridge with a dribble. 

Of course when it comes to combustion - Sheed is in a class of his own.

Finally, going back to another quote in this thread that questioned Sheed's basketball IQ - absolutely wrong. The guys knows how to play basketball. If he could just bottle the rage that is in him - he would not do all the stupid things he does on the court - but if you look at his body of work as a basketball player - he understand very well what is happening, knows how to run, rotate, space and cut the opposing player's angles. The man knows how to play basketball.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

I dont like the Sheed comparison primarily because Sheed's always been a strong defender through his career, was known for his physical play, and has a back to the basket game. I think a better model of what Andrea could become is a weaker/poorer Arvydas Sabonis (mid to late 90s instead of the 80s version). Both have that shooting touch, both are good passers, and both play primarily out of the high post. Plus, they seem to have good basketball IQs, although Andrea does go through spans where he seems absolutely clueless. 

I say Andrea will be a "poorer" Sabonis since Sabonis could do a lot more on the court than Andrea can. He was a better defender, had a good back to the basket game, was a strong player on the boards. Granted, Sabonis doesnt have the dribble drive ability that Andrea has/can develop (he has that problem of traveling off the pump fake, needs to refine that move).


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

The problem is trying to find a big man who attempts so many three pointers AND is such a horrific rebounder.

Sheed and Bargnani may have similar TENDENCIES (to fall in love with the 3-pointer, to totally disappear for long stretches, to camp out on the perimeter, etc.), but they don't have similar skills or styles.

I tried to think of other big men (other that Dirk) that had face the basket games, but they were mostly at least average, if not good to great rebounders (Bob MacAdoo - in your dreams, Jack Sikma, Bill Laimbeer, pre-injury Ralph Sampson, etc.). Even Mehmet Okur is a better rebounder than Bargnani. At this point, Bargnani would have to show considerable improvement in his defense and rebounding just to perform at the same level as a young Raef LaFrentz.

So, until he shows marked improvement (which he may still do as he's so young) the best I can come up with is a weaker rebounding, worse passing version of Brad Lohaus (that's based on actual production - not "potential").

BNM


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

:frenchy:

That smiley is my best suggestion for similarity between anyone and Andrea :biggrin:


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

andalusian said:


> I agree that they are a bad comparison - but Sheed is not mobile? Especially Sheed at AB's age? The guy could run the floor like a deer.


When I said mobile, I should've said his ability to put the ball on the floor. Sheed can run the court for sure, but he doesn't have ball handling skills that Bargnani has.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

well the comparison makes a lot of sense because they share more strength/weaknesses than any other player in terms of comparing one to bargs.. granted its pretty hard to compare a player to bargs so..

OBVIOUSLY there not going to be similar in every way.. thanks for some of you for pointing that out =\

strengths:
-3 point shooting
-defense
-quickness,athleticism for position
-good passers

things i see bargnani developing to become more similar to rasheed - better post defense, shot blocking, fadeaway in post, rebounding.

weaknesses:
-poor rebounders for position (bargnanis obviously on a totally different level as of now)
-misuse of talent/abilities (shouldn't have said bball iq earlier, although it kinda ties in with that)

Rik Smits is a good one too.

Also, Clifford Robinson as well. He loved the 3, good scorer, a great defender, poor rebounder.


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

bigbabyjesus said:


> Now we've heard A LOT of Dirk comparisons, and even Gasol comparisons. But Andrea is a much different player than those guys.
> 
> I see the best comparison as Rasheed Wallace.
> 
> ...


Good comparison but, dude, Wallace has one of the highest basketball IQs in the league. It's his unwillingness to go down low that's holding him back. Bargnani needs to be like early Wallace and work down low.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Since when is Sheed being held back from anything? He's one of the best veterans in the league, holding fort for one of the best teams in the league.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Rasheed Wallace is one of the best defenders in the league. Arguably the best low post defender in the league. I don't see the comparison.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

andrea is not a bad defensive player, especially low post d on big guys.. where his length & quickness really help him.. it doesnt hurt his legs are trees (ex. yao ming)

he can develope into something good, he just is not at that point right now.. he does not finish his defensive plays off.. the whole toronto team will play good defence until the shot goes up but once it is up... we don't crash the boards, which is where the main problem lies.


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Since when is Sheed being held back from anything? He's one of the best veterans in the league, holding fort for one of the best teams in the league.


I said, his unwillingness to go down low is holding him back. This does not mean that someone or something else is holding him back. This means that, unlike earlier in his career, he doesn't want to play in the post anymore (offensively speaking). If he did, he'd be a top 5 player.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

HB said:


> Rasheed Wallace is one of the best defenders in the league. Arguably the best low post defender in the league. I don't see the comparison.


I realize this, and stated it several times myself. I think he's the best post defender in the league.

In no way am I saying Andrea is as good.. But I do think he has the potential to be.

Whats Andrea's best asset other than his shot? His post defense.

And yeah narrator I said it in my previous post but I shouldn't have said basketball IQ, rather his unwillingness to bang in the post.. he loves the 3 point shot FAR too much. I agree he would be a top 5-10 player if he mixed up his game more and rebounded to his ability.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

narrator said:


> I said, his unwillingness to go down low is holding him back. This does not mean that someone or something else is holding him back. This means that, unlike earlier in his career, he doesn't want to play in the post anymore (offensively speaking). If he did, he'd be a top 5 player.


but he's obviously playing the way his hall-of-fame coach wants, most of the time anyway, and doing it well for an elite team.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Lamarcus Aldridge is a much better comparison to Sheed than Bargnani is IMO. 


I think Bargnani reminds me more of a less rebounding Brad Miller. As time goes on I think he will rebound more though.....Just like Aldridge will too.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i'm not a comparison guy, but there are things about andrea right now that i felt about pervis ellison back in the day. not many, but a few. both #1's, both injury-prone, both underachievers in the early seasons while their teams waited for them (after entering the league seemingly polished). 

i just hope andrea's career doesn't follow the same path. pervis broke out one season, i think he was named most improved or something, but injuries always hobbled him and he never became a legitimate star. and he wasn't necessarily seen as a 'bust' either. just- not good enough in some facets of his head. intangibles that made him effective but not extraordinary.

when sacramento picked him back in the day, it sort of mirrored our position with andrea last year. they weren't looking to him to rescue the team, as most #1's are asked to do. they didn't even know what they wanted from him- they just thought he was the best player to pick in that draft and they were wrong- though not by much, as in andrea's case, where the draft was relatively weak at the top (not including the blazers).

i'm not closing the door on bargnani at all. but if, when it's all said and done, his career still reminds me of pervis ellison's, that'll be a shame.

peace


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## Resume (Jul 17, 2007)

NewAgeBaller said:


> Rasheed has a great post-game on offence and is one of the better post defenders in the league.


LOL @ Rasheed being a good defender. One of the "better in the league" LOL nice


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

just reading some replies gives me the feeling that Andrea is being underrated in terms of his one-on-one D. His help D is quite atrocious to look at but his man-on-man is adequate for someone of his experience.

And there are facets of Andrea's game that I can see with Rasheed's game, so I can understand how someone can make the comparison (and maybe even a ceiling), but like other have said there are other things both players do that sets them miles apart as well.

Not a bad comparison though, I mean if Andrea can become a 'Rasheed minus the techs', then I'm glad the Raps drafted him.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

sheed plays defense,rebounds and is tough. nani is soft, past chris bosh. no comparison there.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Resume said:


> LOL @ Rasheed being a good defender. One of the "better in the league" LOL nice



your team plays no defense. what do you know


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Jizzy said:


> your team plays no defense. what do you know





Um.......his team is Portland I believe which is 7th in the league in points allowed. That's one spot behind the Raptors.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

^Well the Raptors are pretty awful on defense so that doesnt bode well haha..

But Jizzy, please tell me why you think Chris Bosh is soft, besides your obvious hate for him and the Raptors team. 

Andrea, I can understand why you would say he is soft.. Even the Raptors, I can see why you'd say there soft.. but Chris Bosh? far from soft.. 

He is the toughest man on the earth compared to Vince Carter and Krstic.


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

SkywalkerAC said:


> but he's obviously playing the way his hall-of-fame coach wants, most of the time anyway, and doing it well for an elite team.


Flip Saunders is a hall of fame coach? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa???? :lol:

Wallace is very good but he could be much, much better. It's got nothing to do with Saunders and it has everything to do with his head: he wants to shoot threes rather than bang in the post. No offense, but are you even reading what I'm saying...?


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## narrator (Feb 11, 2006)

bigbabyjesus said:


> ^Well the Raptors are pretty awful on defense so that doesnt bode well haha..
> 
> But Jizzy, please tell me why you think Chris Bosh is soft, besides your obvious hate for him and the Raptors team.
> 
> ...


Bosh needs to drive more. He's quicker than other centres and PFs.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

He's top 5 I believe in getting to the line.

I agree he needs to drive more *SOMETIMES*, but recently.. he's been mixing up his game perfectly. It really depends on how the defender is playing him. If they sag off, he's going to be tempted to take his jumper like any player.

Why that means he's soft, I don't get.. 

When has Bosh ever backed down to anyone? He's not afraid of getting hit. 

When a soft player gets hit and falls to the ground, does he IMMEDIATELY pop up and shake it off like Bosh does every time? No.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

jizzy just likes saying soft & bosh in the same sentance.. it's weird.

since bosh came into the league, @ the size he was.. extremely slight of body, he brought it right at KG his rookie season & schooled him on 1 play,.. from that second i knew the kid wasn't soft or in a deep need of toughness.

bosh can get to the line at will, the times he lacks getting a FT, are the times he isnt demanding & assertive, but when he gets in the zone, he will be at the stripe.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

you know who andrea reminds me of? he reminds me of a quicker but softer version of charlie villanueva. i was just watching the bucks and i thought villanueva was totally being underutilized behind yi... it would be great if charlie v comes back. how many bigman has his touch from outside and still be able to play below the basket and be willing to rebound the ball?


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

i like charlie, but how many jumpshooting big men can we possibly have?

theres no room for him here.


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## RX (May 24, 2006)

that's actually a great comparison...sadly i think CV3 > AB...at least CV3 has heart


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

CV may have more heart, but Andrea has more hair.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

haha, hair over heart anyday boys, anyday


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## RX (May 24, 2006)

heh i was at the raps vs knicks gam tonight at msg and i can say 100% AB = bust.....he's not a bad player....just a spot up shooter that happens to be 7 ft tall...not worth #1 pick at all


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

btw, I just realize that everytime Jizzy calls Bosh soft, Bosh always have a big game afterwards. You should frequent our board Jizzy.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

AB has a bigger ceiling than CV

and this is coming from a CV fan.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Andrea has twice the defensive potential that Charlie has at the center position. they both have a very good skill to size ratio but Il Mago wins out. CV has a better feel for the game at this point but Andrea's the better center prospect.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Andrea has twice the defensive potential that Charlie has at the center position. they both have a very good skill to size ratio but Il Mago wins out. CV has a better feel for the game at this point but Andrea's the better center prospect.


I second that.

Andrea will be fine. If you remember he did not have a very good summer playing for Italy as well. I think this is just a hangover of that....a very long hangover. We make lots out of how poor Bargs rebounds, but how good Moon is. I was watching the last game (Philly) and noticed that on free throws, Bargs boxes out his man and Moon comes from the high block to get the easy board. That happened at least twice in the game, if Andrea is the designated rebounder on that play he grabs 4 or 5 total for the game.....all of a sudden we would be giving him some slack. Alas it is not set up that way, no one gives Andrea the right of way (rightfully so right now) for easy boards. Until he starts to get some 50/50 balls he wont get any respect from his own team as well.


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## Darman (Jun 29, 2006)

billfindlay10 said:


> I second that.
> I was watching the last game (Philly) and noticed that on free throws, Bargs boxes out his man and Moon comes from the high block to get the easy board. That happened at least twice in the game, if Andrea is the designated rebounder on that play he grabs 4 or 5 total for the game.....all of a sudden we would be giving him some slack. Alas it is not set up that way, no one gives Andrea the right of way (rightfully so right now) for easy boards. Until he starts to get some 50/50 balls he wont get any respect from his own team as well.


Finally somebody see it. :yay:

He is always boxing out big men and let the designated player to get the rebound (Chris or Jamario).

However when I saw some aggressiveness on the boards I saw bad movements too (resulting in a foul) above all on the offensive fase.

This because Andrea isn't a good rebounder (still) but not a ugly one you think. I believe he should normally get 6-7 himself by now. But he plays for the team and not for the "numbers"(in a interview to an italian newspaper he said that he ignores the stats in the wins, but not in the losses).

Do you remember the last year without Bosh? he reached the 11-12 rebounds in a pair of games.

And another thing: I still have in front of my eyes the last possession the the last playoff game against NJ: I thought "now Sam wants to leave the last shot for Chris, be sure"... he did (but NJ knew it too since there were 5 player on him) also if Andrea was wide on the three line for the winning shot. Sorry but I have not faith in Sam.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

bigbabyjesus said:


> i like charlie, but how many jumpshooting big men can we possibly have?
> 
> theres no room for him here.


there's always room for quality players. the thing i like about charlie is that while he's got the outside shot, he has a nice inside game too. i actually think charlie V, even during his rookie season, was a lot more polished as a player than bargnani at this point. We may have a couple of good jump shooting big men, but they're no where near as good as charlie V. And i think charlie V is a better center prospect than people think. He's got great size and he's bigger than bargnani, and we all know he has great chemistry with bosh. i have yet to see barganani and bosh strive together on the floor, but charlie V could always play, whether it's at the 5 or 3 he made it work with bosh.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

charlie v is sick.. i'd love to have him back, and he'd probably rather be here then bucks any day.

i was really mad that fateful draft day after the ford trade & drafting bargnani... damn... but i'm over it, and i don't agree with that New Yorker that said bargnani is 100% bust.. dude has shown flashes, once he puts it all together (he will) you might be eating those words.. btw lastnight, i saw another play that told me AB & CB can play together w/ a really nice low post feed by Andrea off a curl for a dunk.

now however, i can see where you coming from, dude plays like a 7 foot Adam Morrison... anybody remember that comparison?

for a second i remember people talking about the possibility of a big lineup like CV, Bosh & Bargnani(aldridge)... three 6'10+ towers.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

c_dog said:


> there's always room for quality players. the thing i like about charlie is that while he's got the outside shot, he has a nice inside game too. i actually think charlie V, even during his rookie season, was a lot more polished as a player than bargnani at this point. We may have a couple of good jump shooting big men, but they're no where near as good as charlie V. And i think charlie V is a better center prospect than people think. *He's got great size and he's bigger than bargnani,* and we all know he has great chemistry with bosh. i have yet to see barganani and bosh strive together on the floor, but charlie V could always play, whether it's at the 5 or 3 he made it work with bosh.


Last time I checked 6'11" 235 (Charlie) is smaller then 7'0" 250 (Andrea)

Charlie is not a 5, he could be a very good 4, but he is stuck behind Yi. Bargs has more potential to be a very good center for the Raps...he is just in a big slump. I am confidant he will come out of it in time.....He is only 22 years old.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

CV is not a Center and will never be, he is a better 3 than 5. CV is a finesse 4 and so is Bosh, that's the problem however I think we can sure use him again on this team. We can have him off the bench to back Bosh and AB

We could even go big with AB,CB,CV


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

yeah..

Charlie is *NOT* a 5, and is WAY too slow for the 3.

Not only is Bargnani bigger and stronger (Andreas lower body strength is really underrated, thats what keeps his defense solid and steady when guarding centres, he just needs to add upper body strength).. but he is quicker..

Charlie Villanueva is a PF, nothing else.. Bargs has a better chance to play the 3 then he does, and a MUCH better chance to play centre

Put Charlie at the SF, see how badly he gets torched on defense. Same goes for Bargnani even though hes quicker, but I never saw him as a SF anyways.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

i just remembered, i always thought andray blatche of washington & andrea had similar games.. and both can hit the 3 @ 7 feet tall.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

A crappier-rebounding, more-skilled, mobile and athletic version of Troy Murphy.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

billfindlay10 said:


> Last time I checked 6'11" 235 (Charlie) is smaller then 7'0" 250 (Andrea)
> 
> Charlie is not a 5, he could be a very good 4, but he is stuck behind Yi. Bargs has more potential to be a very good center for the Raps...he is just in a big slump. I am confidant he will come out of it in time.....He is only 22 years old.


could have fooled me. i know charlie V is shorter but i wasn't aware that andrea has 15 lb's on him. charlie certainly looks bigger if you look at his arms and upper body compared to barganani. at any rate, he certainly plays bigger.

i wouldn't mind getting him back especially now that he has low market value(and there's the rumor the bucks are looking to blow up their team).


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

watch the next bucks-raps game. andrea is WAY bigger than CV.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

SkywalkerAC said:


> watch the next bucks-raps game. andrea is WAY bigger than CV.


way bigger? he has one inch on charlie, i wouldn't say he's WAY bigger. i always got the impression andrea was quite skinny and i'm suprised to see he's listed as 250. he looks as skinny as t-mac. charlie v isn't ripped or anything but i always thought he looked like he had pretty good size and strength for an nba big. i've been trying to find a pic of the two together but no luck.

and charlie V is listed as 240lbs on yahoo, but still, surprised he's 10lbs lighter.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

c_dog said:


> way bigger? he has one inch on charlie, i wouldn't say he's WAY bigger. i always got the impression andrea was quite skinny and i'm suprised to see he's listed as 250. he looks as skinny as t-mac. charlie v isn't ripped or anything but i always thought he looked like he had pretty good size and strength for an nba big. i've been trying to find a pic of the two together but no luck.
> 
> and charlie V is listed as 240lbs on yahoo, but still, surprised he's 10lbs lighter.


Charlie was measured to be 6'9 in bare feet. andrea is 7 foot in socks. and bargnani has at least 15 lbs on charlie.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

and whoever said troy murphy came up with the closest comparison in the league right now.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Charlie was measured to be 6'9 in bare feet. andrea is 7 foot in socks. and bargnani has at least 15 lbs on charlie.


i'm just saying, charlie looks like a legit 6'11 player to me and again, andrea doesn't look to have 15lbs on him at all. andrea doesn't look big to me, he's just tall. maybe i need to get hdtv or something because they look about the same to me on tv.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

charlie to me is not even bigger then bosh.. my memory might be shot, but thats what i seem to remember...
and i know bargnani is taller, has more weight & height then bosh... Bargnani has legs like trees, which could be deceiving.. ex. Yao Ming.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

c_dog said:


> way bigger? he has one inch on charlie, i wouldn't say he's WAY bigger. i always got the impression andrea was quite skinny and i'm suprised to see he's listed as 250. he looks as skinny as t-mac. charlie v isn't ripped or anything but i always thought he looked like he had pretty good size and strength for an nba big. i've been trying to find a pic of the two together but no luck.
> 
> and charlie V is listed as 240lbs on yahoo, but still, surprised he's 10lbs lighter.


tmac is skinny?


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

SkywalkerAC said:


> and whoever said troy murphy came up with the closest comparison in the league right now.


That's because I'm schmart.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

c_dog said:


> i'm just saying, charlie looks like a legit 6'11 player to me and again, andrea doesn't look to have 15lbs on him at all. andrea doesn't look big to me, he's just tall. maybe i need to get hdtv or something because they look about the same to me on tv.


why are you talking like charlie is ripped or something?

he's not 'big' by any means..


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

i said, it's more because i got the idea andrea was skinny(like t-mac) not because charlie was ripped(in fact i said "it's not like charlie is ripped or anything"). andrea's arms look pretty skinny to me most times, and i don't think being bigger than bosh is anything that big a deal because bosh(while very long) isn't very big either.

the bottom of the line is charlie v would help this team and he plays bigger/better than andrea, at least from what i've seen.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Strength isn't the calling card for both players. Just for the sake of comparison, Bargnani is stronger than Villaneuva, but that is like saying the Knicks are better than the Twolves.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Andrea's frame is pretty impressive. I wish he had proper measurements done pre-draft but the ones we got a hold of were very impressive. for a finesse center the dude is pretty strong even when vertical, allowing him to adapt to post defense much more quickly than I'd have thought.

The real problem with Andrea is that he can't power jump worth a damn. If he had cross trained with volleyball he'd be a dominant play right now. He's so young that this kind of training should be mandatory. His jump mechanics off two feet are about %50 of where they could be. 

And that's the complaint with Andrea. None of his big man skills are anywhere close to where they could be. Andrea's massive potential will be carved through his development of these skills. He's got a lot of hard work ahead of him but I think he's got the motor and the mental capacity to make massive improvements in all areas of his game.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

and Channing Frye is the other guy most comparable to Bargs, cept he doesn't have any real driving game to speak of.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

SkywalkerAC said:


> and Channing Frye is the other guy most comparable to Bargs, cept he doesn't have any real driving game to speak of.


I like this one as far as young guys go. I have been trying to think of a good retired player but have come up blank so far.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Channing Fryre ding ding ding
thats the closest comparism at the moment.
Andrea needs to stop picking up those silly fouls if he does then Sam will keep him in the game and he will play at least 25 MPG, he on the defensive end needs to get more agressive.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

historically the kukoc comparison makes some sense, who was certainly a "magician" in his own right.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

good Bargs = Dirk Lite

bad Bargs = Antione Walker (chucker, poor defender, no rebounds ect)


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

i think antoine walker is a good comparison. actually, shimmy was a hell of a better rebounder then nani


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

i dont understand why Nani doesnt play in the post. he's like dirk, hes 7 ft and skilled but afraid of contact. what happened to all that muscle he gained during the offseason?


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Jizzy said:


> i dont understand why Nani doesnt play in the post. he's like dirk, hes 7 ft and skilled but afraid of contact. what happened to all that muscle he gained during the offseason?


he doesn't have the post footwork to utilize it yet. he wheeled around a smaller player yesterday, which was nice to see.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

billfindlay10 said:


> I like this one as far as young guys go. I have been *trying to think of a good retired player* but have come up blank so far.


I guess you didn't like my Brad Lohaus comparison? In both statistics and style, early to mid-career Lohaus is the closest I can think of. If you look at Lohaus' best two seasons, his numbers were very similar to what Bargnani is producing this year:


```
G    GS   MIN     FG%   3FG%    FT%   REB   AST   STL   BLK   TO    PF    PTS   PER
Lohaus
1989-90  80   41   24.3   .460   .343   .728   5.0   2.1   0.7   1.1   1.4   2.6   9.2   13.6
1992-93  80   24   22.1   .461   .370   .723   3.5   1.6   0.6   0.9   1.2   2.2   9.1   13.3
Bargnani
2007-08  33   20   22.9   .390   .391   .790   3.4   1.0   0.2   0.5   1.4   2.9   9.4    9.4
```
At this point, I'd have to give the edge to Lohaus. Of course, Bargnani is still very young and has a lot of time to improve - which he will need to do (rebounding, steals, blocks and especially passing) just to equal Lohaus' best years. A big difference is Bargnani was the first pick of the first round and Lohaus was the last pick of the second round. The other big difference was Lohaus played four years of Div. 1 college ball and was 23-years old as a rookie. He'd pretty much reached his peak by his third year in the league and never really showed any significant improvement in his per minute production after his rookie season. So, to be fair, we should wait until Bargnani is 25 and in his fifth season to compare his performance to Lohaus at 25 in his third season.

Beyond the stats, there are many similarities. Both are big men who like to hang around on the perimeter and shoot three pointers. They are both solid, but not great 3-point shooters. They are both weak rebounders for their size and shy away from physical contact. Lohaus was a pretty good high post passer. Bargnani has shown flashes of this skill, but lacks consistency. In addition to being a little bigger, Bargnani's biggest advantage is he has a much quicker first step then Lohaus ever did. If Bargnani can learn to use this to his advantage, and take the ball all the way to the basket, finish strong and draw some fouls, it will really open up things for his outside shot. Again, he has shown brief flashes of this ability, but far too often after he gets by his man with that quick first step, he pulls up short, or hesitates to take the ball all the way to the rack.

Of the current players, I think Bargnani is most similar to Mehmet Okur. Okur isn't a superstar, but he did make the all-star team last year. Again, he is another face-up perimeter oriented big man that can knock down the three at a respectable percentage. Okur isn't a great rebounder, but he's not too bad. He definitely lacks Bargnani's quick first step, but does a better job drawing fouls (387, 454, 387 FTA over his last three complete seasons). If Bargnani can improve his rebounding, passing and ability/willingness to draw fouls, he has the talent to be a better overall player than Okur. But, he still has a lot of work to do to get there and it's not a given that he ever will (or won't - still too young to tell one way or the other).

In an ideal world, Bargnani could develop into a Jack Sikma type player. Sikma was an excellent high post big man. He didn't add the 3-point shot until later in his career, and he was an excellent rebounder and passer from the start. Again, Bargnani has better physical tools than Sikma, but Sikma played hard, and smart and got the most out of his limited athletic ability. If Toronto is determined to keep both Bosh and Bargnani, offensively I think it makes the most sense to play Bosh in the low post and Bargnani in the high post - similar to what the Bucks did with Terry Cummings and Sikma. Sikma had the outside shot and passing ability to make this work. It opened things up for Cummings and allowed him to operate in the low post without Sikma (and his defender) getting in the way. On the other end, Sikma was a very solid low post defender (he wasn't much of a shot blocker, but he wasn't afraid to get physical) and an excellent defensive rebounder - two areas where Bargnani still needs to make significant improvement.

BNM


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Rasheed Wallace. Rasheed Wallce. Rasheed Wallace????????????????????? Are you insance.

He has no post game at all, and he does try on occassion. He can't rebounds and has zero toughness.

Better comparisons:
Matt Bullard
Wang Zhi Zhi


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Junkyard Dog13 said:


> Channing Fryre ding ding ding
> thats the closest comparism at the moment.
> Andrea needs to stop picking up those silly fouls if he does then Sam will keep him in the game and he will play at least 25 MPG, he on the defensive end needs to get more agressive.


I thought that the other day as well. Channing Frye is one of the better comparisons right now. Let's hope he can become at least as good as Channing, because right now he is Wang Zhi Zhi.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Brad Daugherty with range.....Brad was a nice player, he was a solid rebounder for an NBA center, but was not a great shot blocker.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Zhi Zhi is actually a pretty good comparison at this point. I've already seen a LOT more from Bargnani than I ever saw from Wang but they definitely have their similarities. Wang's actually a pretty good player, y'know, he just doesn't play in the NBA anymore. He could still find a role in the NBA but that's obviously not his dream.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

yeah, I think Wang never could ever break the language barrier and adjust to the NBA style of game. He had a pretty stellar career in China and has been the core to China's national team for the past decade and more. Yao has always been impressed of Wang's skill set as he still talks about Wang's game in the media. In fact, when Yao was still in China, his team always loses to Wang's team. I think when Wang was here last summer for exhibition, he dropped like 20+ points on several occasions during the summer league. I think if he wishes, there is a spot for him somewhere in the league.

However, I don't think him and Bargnani are similar players though. Wang's agility and ballhandling is better than the average big men, but is nowhere near Bargnani. Just because Bargnani isn't doing anything well right now, it still doesn't mean that you can just list every single outside shooting big man and say that Bargnani will be that guy. If Bargnani gets stronger, it will go well with his already impressive speed and ball handling skills. You can't say the same thing about most of the outside shooting big men listed in this thread. I think you just have to give him a couple more years until you close the case on him. It's just too early right now.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Andrea's first step and driving ability really do set him apart.


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## Darman (Jun 29, 2006)

http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/Basketball/2008/01/15/4773487-sun.html


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

Darman said:


> http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/Basketball/2008/01/15/4773487-sun.html


wow. i always thought something new/different had to be tried but that idea never crossed my mind. whether it worked/will work remains to be seen. but as immature as it is, it's still refreshing imo. 

peace


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Darman said:


> http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/Basketball/2008/01/15/4773487-sun.html


Interesting approach. I'm not sure if I agree with Mitchell's cold shoulder tactic as I think there should always be an open channel of communication between a coach (teacher) and his players (students). However, if the student isn't receptive to be taught, I guess this is one way to get their attention.

Nate McMillan also "breaks" his young players, but he does it in a much different fashion. He's constantly telling them over and over what he wants them to do. If they buy into his system and do things the way he wants them to, he rewards them with playing time. If they don't, they sit, or get yanked immediately from the game when they screw up. He's loosened up a little lately, but his system of positive rewards and negative consequences seems to have gotten all his young players to buy into his system. They know what their roles are, what is expected of them, and what will happen if they fail to play the way the coach wants them to.

Do you think this approach would have worked better for Bargnani than Mitchell's cold shoulder technique? It seems like Bargnani was given the starting center role at the beginning of the season when he really wasn't ready and hadn't earned that starting spot. It was a sink or swim approach. That didn't work out so well and seemed hurt Bargnani's confidence (which seems to be the biggest thing holding him back right now) and when he lost his starting job, perhaps it also made him a little resentful of his coach. Perhaps working with him on his low post skills first and not giving him the starting spot until he was ready would have worked better. Had to say for sure.

BNM


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Sorry about the darn double post. Every time I try to post to your board my browser hangs. That never happens when I post to the Blazers board. Perhaps I should take it as a sign that I should butt out and stick to posting on my home team's board.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

Boob-No-More said:


> Interesting approach. I'm not sure if I agree with Mitchell's cold shoulder tactic as I think there should always be an open channel of communication between a coach (teacher) and his players (students). *However, if the student isn't receptive to be taught, I guess this is one way to get their attention*.
> 
> Nate McMillan also "breaks" his young players, but he does it in a much different fashion. He's constantly telling them over and over what he wants them to do. If they buy into his system and do things the way he wants them to, he rewards them with playing time. If they don't, they sit, or get yanked immediately from the game when they screw up. He's loosened up a little lately, but his system of positive rewards and negative consequences seems to have gotten all his young players to buy into his system. They know what their roles are, what is expected of them, and what will happen if they fail to play the way the coach wants them to.


I don't know about that. There were a lot of reports about Martell Webster having trouble paying attention to the coaching stuff until this year - his 3rd. I guess that there has to be a 2 way street for the coaches to want to coach and the players to accept coaching - and until this happens - nothing will happen. Apparently Nate and his stuff had problems getting through to Webster until this year - and Mitchel is apparently finally getting to Andrea - so, whatever works, works...


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

andalusian said:


> I don't know about that. There were a lot of reports about Martell Webster having trouble paying attention to the coaching stuff until this year - his 3rd. I guess that there has to be a 2 way street for the coaches to want to coach and the players to accept coaching - and until this happens - nothing will happen. Apparently Nate and his stuff had problems getting through to Webster until this year


That was my point. Martell, like any other young Blazer under Nate, was not given the starting role until he had earned it. If you remember, Martell was in line to be the starting small forward at the beginning of last season, but lost that spot to unheralded, undrafted 29-year old journeyman Ime Udoka who wasn't even expected to make the team. Nate sent a very clear message that, even if you were a lottery pick, you don't automatically get to start. You still have to earn it.



andalusian said:


> - and Mitchel is apparently finally getting to Andrea - so, whatever works, works...


We won't know if it works or not until Bargnani starts producing and showing significant improvement. But, if he's listening to his coaches now, that's a first step. Too bad it took three weeks of silence to get him to become receptive to his coaches instructions. Which is why I asked if Toronto fans thought a different approach, similar to McMillan's would have perhaps worked better with Bargnani.

BNM


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> Sorry about the darn double post. Every time I try to post to your board my browser hangs. That never happens when I post to the Blazers board. Perhaps I should take it as a sign that I should butt out and stick to posting on my home team's board.


i appreciate fans of other teams that actually have knowledge & are productive posting on our board.. you fit in that, so keep up the good work.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

Boob-No-More said:


> That was my point. Martell, like any other young Blazer under Nate, was not given the starting role until he had earned it. If you remember, Martell was in line to be the starting small forward at the beginning of last season, but lost that spot to unheralded, undrafted 29-year old journeyman Ime Udoka who wasn't even expected to make the team. Nate sent a very clear message that, even if you were a lottery pick, you don't automatically get to start. You still have to earn it.


Well, AB was playing pretty decent basketball last year - so it is not as if the starting position was handed to him on a platter. When he did not produce, they replaced him in the starting lineup. 



Boob-No-More said:


> We won't know if it works or not until Bargnani starts producing and showing significant improvement. But, if he's listening to his coaches now, that's a first step. Too bad it took three weeks of silence to get him to become receptive to his coaches instructions. Which is why I asked if Toronto fans thought a different approach, similar to McMillan's would have perhaps worked better with Bargnani.


I have a lot of respect for Sam Mitchel - he seems to have some ideas about how to get stuff out of him players. I can not believe that this was something he does with every player. He probably realized that he was not getting to his player and tried to show him that if he is not willing to want to get better - he will not go out of his way to help him.


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## Flush (Jul 25, 2005)

I worry about the Hard-*** approach. Rarely does it work in the NBA. See Kevin O'Neil. If it does it's because the specific players under that regime are receptive to it.

But the majority of NBA ego's can't handle it, and rightfully so. They are grown men at the UPPER echelon of their craft. Giving someone the silent treatment isn't the most professional approach. I can't help but think there is a lot behind the tension between these two, that extends right back to draft day.

However, there is just something "off" with Andrea recently. He just doesn't seem to fit in. Not with his teammates not with the coaching staff. Maybe this was an attempt by Mitchell to alienate Bargs and force him to reach out and integrate himself.

It will be interesting to watch how this develops.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

andalusian said:


> Well, AB was playing pretty decent basketball last year - so it is not as if the starting position was handed to him on a platter. When he did not produce, they replaced him in the starting lineup.


But his role last year was completely different. Last year he played most of his minutes backing up the the 3 and 4 spots and his game, and skills, were perimeter oriented. It was apparent last year that he still had a long way to go to be an inside force on both both offense and defense. He lacked the low post moves, toughness and rebounding to play center. He has the physical tools to play the position, but lacked the developed skills and mindset. Playing starting center is a LOT different, both physically and mentally, than being a back-up perimeter player. This year they plopped him in the opening day line-up as their starting center. This forced him out of his comfort zone. They then tried to help him improve his low post skills and he responded by sulking and putting in a half-hearted effort.

I don't know Bargnani's mental make-up as well as the Raptors fans. That's why I asked if Nate's approach of making him prove himself first, by spoon feeding a little at a time until he proves that he's ready to start would have possibly worked better than Mitchell's sink or swim followed by cold shoulder approach. 

It drove me nuts last year the way Nate was so stingy with giving Aldridge any significant PT until the season was almost 2/3 over. I thought he gave Magloire, the veteran, way too many minutes and was holding back Aldridge's development by denying him PT. I actually thought they were showcasing Magloire for a potential trade. Turns out this was just Nate's way of making Aldridge earn his minutes and not giving him too much, too soon. Obviously Nate knew what he was doing and it's worked out well for Aldridge. Again, I'm just wondering, and asking Toronto fans, if a similar approach might have worked for Bargnani.

BNM


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Like I said in the other thread I just don't see the same guy who came in here 4 years ago and dominated the Raptors as part of Benneton.

Is it the extra weight he is being told to put on in order to bang with big guys down low? Is it just not being comfortable in that C role?

Converting a guy into a low post C is almost impossible. There are instincts and techniques you have to develop in your teens to become an efficient player down there. And you can't just suddenly welcome physical contact when your whole ball career is based on finesse. Bosh still struggles with taking contact on his drives and looks pretty ugly on some finishes.

The big mystery is why the big dropoff from the first two games of the season where Bargs looked to be having a breakout year? The only difference I see is that we now force feed CB on every possession and there is almost no interplay betweem the two. That and a complete lack of confidence that has to fall partially on Sam Mitchell.

I think Bosh has to play a bigger role in Barg's development. Work out with him on the court all offseason. Both of them could benefit from some physical one on one ball and learning to finish strong under the basket against a 7 footer.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

He came out with some energy last night. He was just rushing his shot. 

Bargnani obviously has a stubborn personality and he and the coaching staff have not been on the same page. That's a pretty big obstacle to overcome but I think Sam will get er done.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

^ lol, thats an italian for you.. generally arrogant and REALLY, and i mean REALLY stubborn.

i'm expecting next season to be a big one for bargnani.

the sophmore slump is really common in sports, we're just too used to seeing guys like lebron, wade ect explode into stardom there second year. europeans especially are going to have a harder and longer time adjusting. 

then you factor in that he's playing a totally new position. he played small forward his whole career, and played on the perimeter last year. 

now we're asking him to be a centre. thats a huge adjustment. all he needs is time. 

sam even said in the paper "we dont want him to play like last year. last year he just stood at 30 feet waiting for the ball" ..


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## Darman (Jun 29, 2006)

bigbabyjesus said:


> sam even said in the paper "we dont want him to play like last year. last year he just stood at 30 feet waiting for the ball" ..


Ok, this explains it all. By now he's a WIP...


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

bigbabyjesus said:


> sam even said in the paper "we dont want him to play like last year. last year he just stood at 30 feet waiting for the ball" ..


even last year he was rebounding more then this season .. somebody need to call bargs mother :azdaja:









pretty nice hops for a 7 footer.....


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

yeah, dude can get up off one foot.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

he missed that one lol


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Bargs had a decent game, he did not shoot the ball well, but he showed some decent hustle. Early in the first 1/4 he turned the ball over, he then hustled back and grabbed the defensive board....Nice!!! Those are the things we need to see him do. I would have liked to see he get some minutes in garbage time, but I do understand getting Hump some burn (he played well, as well as Joey.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

He is definitely pursuing the ball more over the last 2 games. The rebounding effort is improving.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i have no answer. i have only guesses. it crossed my mind while watching sacramento that andrea may not be used to the ability of nba bigs to close distance. he still seems to think he's open when it appears he is, which leads him to shoot, before realizing that his shot won't go off as easily as anticipated. in the end, he either gets blocked or is usually challenged (and surprised by it), resulting in confusion _next_ time as to whether he is open or he isn't. and when he does get a wide open look, all the bad habits of his "confused shot" still show- his legs are unnecessarily crooked or he shoots off balance (unnecessarily) or whatever. the old defender in his head.

all i know is that he has limited confidence and comfort in his shot right now, and i'm just trying to brainstorm the reasons why. when he gets it back, the rest of his game will follow imo- the defense will have to change their approach against him, for one- and i don't think it works the other way (at least not with him). you can try to improve your rebounding, defense and positioning while you wait for your shot to return, but if you don't believe in what has been called your most promising gift (in andrea's case, his offense) you're going to be fighting tooth and nail to get anything else done.

i just watch the team play now and it's sort of funny. the rest of the guys seem relaxed, for better or worse, doing their thing like normal, while andrea's got that deer in the headlights look... or maybe a kid in a video game. one of the two. it'll leave at some point but i won't be one to remember this period fondly at all. it's quite painful. 

peace


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

A couple of closer comparisons that interestingly hadn't been brought up:

Hedo Turkoglu - this guy has been in the league for ages now and is playing great ball. they're both lengthy euros with good athleticism and outside shots.

Robert Horry - similar length and has the ability to shoot from outside and put the ball on the floor and get to the basket (or did).


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