# Does LeBron James' "Crab Dribble" Constitute Traveling?



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Yes or No?


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

YES. he hops like a kangaroo.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I counted 3 steps.


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## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

I don't see how it can even be called into question. It's as obvious as can be that he traveled.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

the answer is yes. the refs did good to call that in the waning moments, takes a lot of guts.

and its not like LeBron can't adjust to them calling it more consistently, he would just have to be more legal with his moves. now if they will only begin to look more closely at carrying...


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

I also agree that it's a travel; not sure how LeBron can try and convince anybody otherwise.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Well, it is one of his signature moves apparently.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

3 steps. Of course it's a travel.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

whats the difference between this travel and that one questionable move he did against the wizards in the playoffs 2 yrs ago?


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

I thought this was going to be a reference to Lebron Jame's crab-like hesitation dribble where he pretty much carries the ball every time he does it. Actually a lot of his movements are crab-like...


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

It's a travel. But players get away with 3 steps in the NBA all the time. It was just weird timing.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Its definately a travel. The question is is it an NBA travel?

The NBA lets you get away with a lot of 3-steps, but imo you have to call that.


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## darknezx (Apr 13, 2004)

That's definitely 3 steps. But travelling is so widespread in the NBA, that I think the officials just pretend the rule doesn't exist anymore to maintain the flow of the game. It's atrocious how many of the players travel and still make it to the best plays highlight reels, which makes me wonder if the NBA has really sacrificed footwork and basic skills for adrenaline pumping atheleticism.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Taking 3 steps on a fast break is different from taking three steps to jump past a double team on the last possession of a game. THat needed to be called.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

For those who didn't see what LeBron had to say on the matter...



> "Bad call," said James, who compiled 30 points, 10 assists and six rebounds. "We all make mistakes, and I think I got the wrong end of the bargain. I watched it 10 times after the game, and it was clearly a good play."
> 
> "You have your trademark play, and that's one of my plays. *It kind of looks like a travel because it's slow, and it's kind of a high-step, but it's a one-two just as fluent as any other one-two in this league.* I got the wrong end of it, but I think they need to look at it -- and they need to understand that's not a travel," James said. "It's a perfectly legal play, something I've always done."


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

obvious 3 steps


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Thing is he might always do it with 2 steps, but for this occasion he used 3. Sorry Bron. I doubt you'd be able to slip through those two players with two steps.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Basel said:


> For those who didn't see what LeBron had to say on the matter...


Wow...

Guy needs to learn how to count.


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

That's a walk for sure no matter what Lebron says.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

The one that they didn't call in the playoffs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGiBXYJiTF8


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

f22egl said:


> The one that they didn't call in the playoffs
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGiBXYJiTF8


Man he got away with murder 2 years ago. Unbelievable.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

In this instance, yes, it's a travel. Usually, no.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Yep it was a travel. The league is taking notice it seems. No more traveling game winners. Besides he had the opportunity to still tie the game, but bricked the 3 point shot.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Yeah it's a travel that time. It's not normally a travel though. He just screwed up his timing. He picked up his dribble a half-beat too soon. If he had picked it up as he was going into the double, it would have worked fine. It's basically that same move that Manu Ginobilli does and DWade does.

But in general he gets the timing right. He's supposed to pick up his dribble while he's going into that jump stop I think. Not the step before the jump stop part. That's what he normally does on that move.

It's not as bad as the Patrick Ewing's signiture move which he did every time down the floor. I know a lot of you are too young to remember Patrick Ewing, but he used to take like five steps running across the lane for his "signiture" move. It was completely mind boggling how he got away with it.

What I've never liked about the "lebron travels all the time" brigade, is that a lot of those people are the ones who say everyone travels in the NBA, and it's an inferior game, and the players are not fundementally sound, compared to Europe or College. But that particular move in this sequence is a move that was brought over from europe. It's something American players have put in their game post-Ginobilli. Did anyone ever watch that TNT episode where Kobe was in the studio and he was talking about Ginobilli's dribbling and was extremely analytical on the move. The top guys in the league, your Wades, Lebrons, Kobes--they see what you can get away with and they put it in their game really quickly.

It's really fascinating how the quickly the euro two and a half step has become such a mainstream move in the NBA.


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## Smallballs (Nov 19, 2008)

I'd like to see a slow-motion replay of this play, if anyone can find one.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

Smallballs said:


> I'd like to see a slow-motion replay of this play, if anyone can find one.


They show a slow-mo replay at the end of the clip that's already posted.


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

Yeah its a travel.

I see LeBron is on this forum and voted it as NOT a travel because everybody can see its a travel.

He probably picked up the dribble too soon. 
I havent noticed LeBron travelling much, but I am really bad at picking out travels in real time in the NBA.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Yeah it's a travel, but it is definitely not specific to Lebron. As for Ewing, I will never forget his 'climb the ladder' move going across the lane. It was an ugly move by an ugly man.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> It's not as bad as the Patrick Ewing's signiture move which he did every time down the floor. I know a lot of you are too young to remember Patrick Ewing, but he used to take like five steps running across the lane for his "signiture" move. It was completely mind boggling how he got away with it.


Haha, the Ewing thing is exactly the same as LeBron's, only you're a LeBron fan and not a Ewing fan so you see one and not the other. Ewing travelled ocassionally on that, just as LeBron ocassionally travels on his. To say Ewing travelled every time is just way off.

It's also funny how up in arms people always are about NBA players taking an extra step or carrying on crossovers, yet obvious non-calls that occur several times a game, like shoves in the back when fighting for rebounds or playing post defense are rarely mentioned. Unlike the travels, these actually make scoring harder.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

When Lebron generally lands on 2 feet at once (instead of one after the other like he did there), it's not a travel. That time it was a travel, however, and he probably shouldn't ask the league to investigate his crab dribble or he might not be very pleased with the results as it would undoubtedly become more of a point with the officials.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Definitely a travel.


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## Chan Ho Nam (Jan 9, 2007)

if he had landed with two feet and then hop up then no it wouldn't be, but he landed with one foot and took another step

i bet lebron could have dunked if he had just used a hop


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## Vivaldi (Nov 12, 2006)

I loled hard at the commentators 'well it might not make up for all those times they failed to call it in the playoffs, but they did call it here' rofl

Also, yeah it's a travel. But he usually does the same move without traveling.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

That's more than a travel, that's a vacation. 

He tried to hop step but landed one foot first(first step) then the second foot landed(2nd step), after which he used another step to jump(3rd step) - easy traveling call.

It's different than the move Wade and Ginobili use. They go to a very long stride in the second step which makes it possible to completely switch directions in one step.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Spaceman Spiff said:


> That's more than a travel, that's a vacation.
> 
> He tried to hop step but landed one foot first(first step) then the second foot landed(2nd step), after which he used another step to jump(3rd step) - easy traveling call.
> 
> It's different than the move Wade and Ginobili use. They go to a very long stride in the second step which makes it possible to completely switch directions in one step.


The second foot didn't land I don't think. It looked like it was going to, but he turned the hop step into just one step, and then took the next step. Which wasn't where it was a travel. It was a travel because he takes a step before he does the faux hop-step. He picked up his dribble one beat too soon.

Would like to see a baseline angle to be sure though, because we can't actually see whether that foot comes down or not on the other side of the double.

Either way it's a travel, but if you're right and he took two steps where he was hopping, that's like 4 steps, not 3.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

hroz said:


> Yeah its a travel.
> 
> I see LeBron is on this forum and voted it as NOT a travel because everybody can see its a travel.


Well the poll is confusing, because it doesn't ask if THIS is a travel, it asks if his "crab dribble" move is a travel. I didn't know there was a name for it, but I thought the poll was asking if in general he travels on this move, which he doesn't. 

If the poll had asked if he traveled on this play specifically, then I think the result would have been unanimous. But I believe the thread starter's agenda was actually to convey that Lebron always travels and that's the only reason he's any good.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Well the poll is confusing, because it doesn't ask if THIS is a travel, it asks if his "crab dribble" move is a travel. I didn't know there was a name for it, but I thought the poll was asking if in general he travels on this move, which he doesn't.
> 
> If the poll had asked if he traveled on this play specifically, then I think the result would have been unanimous. But I believe the thread starter's agenda was actually to convey that Lebron always travels and that's the only reason he's any good.


I think if you read the thread from the beginning, you would realize that this poll is asking whether this particular play is a travel. LeBron James thinks this play in particular qualifies as a crab dribble. LeBron claims he has watched this play 10 times and not only does he believes it is not a travel but also describes this particular play as his signature move.


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

Technically you're only allow one and a half steps anyways (otherwise you could double pivot). That is as clear a travel as you'll find.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

The one in the playoffs was more obvious yet wasnt called.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

I know it's hard to believe...

but that's not a travel. Why do I say this?

LeBron had -2- steps. It looks like 3, but the rule is very clear on this matter.

NBA Rules website here



NBA Rules said:


> Section XIV-Traveling
> a. A player who receives the ball while standing still may pivot, using either foot as the pivot foot.
> b. A player who receives the ball while he is progressing or upon completion of a dribble, may use a two-count rhythm in coming to a stop, passing or shooting the ball.
> 
> ...


....(more to the rule, click link up there to see it)

Key words here :


NBA said:


> As the foot touches the floor, or as both feet touch the floor simultaneously *after he receives the ball*


LeBron did not 'receive' the ball until AFTER that step that you guys are counting as #1. Reference 0:54-0:55 in the video. He allows the ball to bounce almost near his head before he ends the dribble and places his *2nd hand* on the ball, therefore NOW you can count steps. He was still in the act of 'dribbling' and only stopped the dribble by grabbing the ball AFTER his step.

LeBron is saying that it was part of his dribble and he only stopped the dribble a split second AFTER the step that you guys think is Step #1

That means he took 2 steps if you go by this explanation.

LeBron is right on this issue. He grabs the ball and ends his dribble a split second AFTER his foot touches the ground.....only 2 steps taken. 

Not a travel


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## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

i was under the impression that the NBA allowed 2 and a half steps (assuming we call the last step a half step instead of a full one if he's shooting) and this seemed to be 2.5 steps. The real issue is why the hell the NBA allows 2 and a half steps considering the size of the players, since it allows a tall player like Lebron to cover most of the ground from the 3 pt line to the basket without dribbling due to their long strides.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

LeBron's size and ability to cover a lot of ground has to be chalked up to just a physical advantage and not some sort of condition that we need to make a rule for. 

Anyway, that was clearly 2 steps and therefore not a travel. He stopped his dribble and 'received the ball' only after his foot (the one you guys think is Step #1) was down.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

ChrisRichards said:


> I know it's hard to believe...
> 
> but that's not a travel. Why do I say this?
> 
> ...


That's a really good post. Repped. Nice research and well reasoned arguement.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

ChrisRichards said:


> LeBron's size and ability to cover a lot of ground has to be chalked up to just a physical advantage and not some sort of condition that we need to make a rule for.
> 
> Anyway, that was clearly 2 steps and therefore not a travel. He stopped his dribble and 'received the ball' only after his foot (the one you guys think is Step #1) was down.


the count starts from your last dribble. you can't delay the count by not controlling the ball with 2 hands. he has control of the ball the second he stops his dribble.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

kflo said:


> the count starts from your last dribble.


Quoted for truth.

Had LeBron been receiving the ball there on a pass then his move would've been legal without a dribble, but he possessed the ball the entire time.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

the rule doesn't state "the count starts from your last dribble. "

read the rule for yourself. It clearly states *first count occurs* "As the foot touches the floor....after he receives the ball"

"After he receives the ball" has to be interpreted as complete possession, a situation where he is not dribbling anymore. 

The video clearly shows LeBron interprets this as "I am still in the act of dribbling" until he places his 2nd hand on the ball, in which case now he is not dribbling anymore.

Therefore, the rule counts the next step after you stop the dribble. The replay clearly shows that LeBron stops the dribble with his 2nd hand after he places his foot on the ground, which you think is Step #1.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> But I believe the thread starter's agenda was actually to convey that Lebron always travels and that's the only reason he's any good.


:laugh:

False; I actually saw the same poll on ESPN.com and thought I'd post it here as well. I wasn't posting this to show that LeBron is only good because he always travels (which I never said he always does). Not everybody is a LeBron hater, calm down.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

ChrisRichards said:


> the rule doesn't state "the count starts from your last dribble. "
> 
> read the rule for yourself


on what basis, from the rule, are you determining that the count starts only when he places his 2nd hand on the ball? 

he maintains control throughout the move, and there is nothing special about him putting his 2nd hand on the ball that changes his status mid-move.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

ChrisRichards said:


> It doesn't count the last step, it counts the next step after you stop the dribble. The replay clearly shows that LeBron stops the dribble with his 2nd hand after he places his foot on the ground, which you think is Step #1


you stop your dribble the instant you are no longer dribbling while maintaining possession. you're inventing this 2nd hand issue.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

kflo said:


> on what basis, from the rule, are you determining that the count starts only when he places his 2nd hand on the ball?
> 
> he maintains control throughout the move, and there is nothing special about him putting his 2nd hand on the ball that changes his status mid-move.





NBA Rules said:


> *
> Section III-Dribble
> A dribble is movement of the ball, caused by a player in control, who throws or taps the ball into the air or to the floor.
> a. The dribble ends when the dribbler:
> ...


*


By placing his 2nd hand on the ball, he is now carrying the ball aka running with it as he moves forward. This means, by NBA rules, he is no longer dribbling.

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_4.html?nav=ArticleList

I will highlight it for you


NBA Rules said:



a. The dribble ends when the dribbler:
(1) Touches the ball simultaneously with both hands

Click to expand...

That was not a travel. LeBron is right.*


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

kflo said:


> you stop your dribble the instant you are no longer dribbling while maintaining possession. you're inventing this 2nd hand issue.


What?? Why would you accuse me of inventing anything...?

It's in the NBA Rules.

The definition of a dribble.

------------------------------------

Section III-Dribble
A dribble is movement of the ball, caused by a player in control, who throws or taps the ball into the air or to the floor.
*a. The dribble ends when the dribbler:
(1) Touches the ball simultaneously with both hands*
(2) Permits the ball to come to rest while he is in control of it
(3) Tries for a field goal
(4) Throws a pass
(5) Touches the ball more than once while dribbling, before it touches the floor
(6) Loses control
(7) Allows the ball to become dead

--------------


That was not a travel


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

^What about rules #2 & #3? Are we ignoring those, because if you want to get 'technical' he IS indeed trying for a field goal which is stated in rule #3 & once he cups the ball he is in violation of rule #2, which as shown would mean he actually took 3 steps. After he took his last dribble, 'the ball to come to rest while he is in control of it' BEFORE his second hand touches... If you want to get technical w/ it, it actually IS a travel. 

a. The dribble ends when the dribbler:
(1) Touches the ball simultaneously with both hands
*(2) Permits the ball to come to rest while he is in control of it
(3) Tries for a field goal*
(4) Throws a pass
(5) Touches the ball more than once while dribbling, before it touches the floor
(6) Loses control
(7) Allows the ball to become dead


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

ChrisRichards said:


> "After he receives the ball" has to be interpreted as complete possession, a situation where he is not dribbling anymore.
> 
> The video clearly shows LeBron interprets this as "I am still in the act of dribbling" until he places his 2nd hand on the ball, in which case now he is not dribbling anymore.
> 
> Therefore, the rule counts the next step after you stop the dribble. The replay clearly shows that LeBron stops the dribble with his 2nd hand after he places his foot on the ground, which you think is Step #1.


No it doesn't. Once you have the ball in one hand that is considered to be receiving the ball. That's why palming the ball is illegal. This is a travel.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

BlueMagic said:


> ^What about rules #2 & #3? Are we ignoring those, because if you want to get 'technical' he IS indeed trying for a field goal which is stated in rule #3 & once he cups the ball he is in violation of rule #2, which as shown would mean he actually took 3 steps. After he took his last dribble, 'the ball to come to rest while he is in control of it' BEFORE his second hand touches... If you want to get technical w/ it, it actually IS a travel.
> 
> a. The dribble ends when the dribbler:
> (1) Touches the ball simultaneously with both hands
> ...



1) are you trying to say he was actually in the act of shooting? that's clearly incorrect. he was not attempting a field goal.



NBA Rules said:


> Section XI-Field Goal Attempt
> A field goal attempt is a player's attempt to shoot the ball into his basket for a field goal.



2) What are you referencing when you say Lebron cups the ball and that is a violation of what rule?

And to me, that looks like he intentionally used a long dribble, not palming or cupping.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

silverpaw1786 said:


> No it doesn't. Once you have the ball in one hand that is considered to be receiving the ball. That's why palming the ball is illegal. This is a travel.


I have already posted the NBA definition of dribbling.

He was still in the act of dribbling.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

The thing that made it so obvious was that he took two steps and then looks like came down on both feet and then took that extra step


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

ChrisRichards, I find it funny you keep saying it's not a travel but then voted that it was in the poll.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

ChrisRichards said:


> are you trying to say he was actually in the act of shooting?
> 
> that's clearly incorrect. he was not attempting a field goal


wtf? he was clearly attempting a field goal, do you not understand the continuation rules? 

The fact is, once he cup'd the ball in his left hand, he brought the ball to rest, in violation of rule #2. From there, he could've taken his one step & then a pro-hop and he would've been staight, but he proceeded to take 2 more steps before releasing the ball equaling 3 steps in total.... A travel.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

Basel said:


> ChrisRichards, I find it funny you keep saying it's not a travel but then voted that it was in the poll.




Yeah, clearly I made the same mistake you did. I looked at it at a glance and counted 1,2,3, travel and voted. Then it dawned on me, wait a second... and I looked it over again and there goes my post.

Change my vote to "no" if you want


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

Blue Magic said:


> wtf? he was clearly attempting a field goal, do you not understand the continuation rules?


What you are referring to when you say continuation rules means when a player commits a personal foul.

There is nothing in the rules that says LeBron was going to shoot. He could have passed the ball instead of shooting. How do you know he wasn't going to pass?

That is incorrect to assume he was going to shoot.... that's not how the rules work. You are mixing two different situation rules up.




Blue Magic said:


> The fact is, once he cup'd the ball in his left hand, he brought the ball to rest,


Look at the video again. I don't see any cupping or palming in his left hand before the right foot goes down. What I do see is a long dribble and then he stops the dribble split second after his right foot touches the ground. The rules say this is when you count the first step


and about cupping..The only time he brought the ball to a rest was when he placed his 2nd hand on the ball.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

cr - are you suggesting that lebron could have kept running with the ball as long as he wanted to as long as he didn't place 2 hands on the ball?


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

1)He dribbled, 
2)as the ball is bouncing back up to his hand, he takes a step with his right foot
3) the right foot lands on the ground 
4)split second after, he ends the dribble(this is when you count)
5) takes his first step with his left foot
6) takes his second step with his right foot

No travel. Of course we have the benefit of replay and the officials don't. Not their fault because it was very close.


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

ChrisRichards said:


> 1)He dribbled,
> 2)as the ball is bouncing back up to his hand, he takes a step with his right foot
> 3) the right foot lands on the ground
> 4)split second after, he ends the dribble(this is when you count)
> ...


you should write your own name in your signature under ehl and s2


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

Where's your argument?

none? ok, go back to your hole.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

ChrisRichards said:


> What you are referring to when you say continuation rules means when a player commits a personal foul.
> 
> There is nothing in the rules that says LeBron was going to shoot. He could have passed the ball instead of shooting. How do you know he wasn't going to pass?
> 
> That is incorrect to assume he was going to shoot.... that's not how the rules work. You are mixing two different situation rules up.



Either way tho, he took the shot so the ref made the correct call. He was attempting a field goal so his dribble ended the moment it last hit the floor. It's in the NBA bylaws. If he made a pass there, then it might be another situation.

As far as continuation, there is the 2-count rule. Meaning on a continuation play following a drive to the basket, the player is aloud two steps after ending their dribble. Three steps is absolutely considered traveling and should be called every time. We see this consistency in leagues below the Professional level but not in the NBA where they practice the Advantage/Disadvantage rule. The Advantage/Disadvantage rule is popular when it comes to an official making calls such as traveling, or carrying etc. If the offensive player does an illegal move that allows him to gain an advantage over the defender, the official will usually make the call, but if it is done in the open court they tend to let it go. Unfortunately, players such as KG, 'Bron, Melo, Wade, Kobe and others can-and-do get away with those calls from time to time.




> Look at the video again. I don't see any cupping or palming in his left hand before the right foot goes down. What I do see is a long dribble and then he stops the dribble split second after his right foot touches the ground. The rules say this is when you count the first step
> 
> 
> and about cupping..The only time he brought the ball to a rest was when he placed his 2nd hand on the ball.


That may be your interpretation, but it's not the only interpretation. He was attempting a field goal, so it's not cut-n-dry like you say. The ref saw him take 3 steps after the ball had last touched the floor, and he was attempting a field goal(rule #3) and it looks to me like the ball came to rest in his hand(palming) before he touched it with his 2nd hand. Just remember the Advantage/Disadvantage situation. The traveling rules are pretty vague so it's up to the refs to determine calls based on whether they think the player is using it to gain an unfair advantage. You cant take three steps to weave in-n-out of the defense if you are attempting a field goal, which LeBron was. This is a travel according to the NBA bylaws.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

ChrisRichards said:


> 1)He dribbled,
> 2)as the ball is bouncing back up to his hand, he takes a step with his right foot
> 3) the right foot lands on the ground
> 4)split second after, he ends the dribble(this is when you count)
> ...


you're wrong in both your interpretation of the rule, and your review of the video. 

bounce a ball, and catch it with 2 hands. that stops a dribble. you're using this rule and applying it as a requirement to stopping a dribble. it's not. 

again, are you suggesting that lebron could have kept running with the ball as long as he wanted to as long as he didn't place 2 hands on the ball?


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

I've provided the evidence required to prove this was not a travel and that LeBron is correct.

No point in arguing this anymore on my part. You will interpret whatever you want in any way you want


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

kflo said:


> again, are you suggesting that lebron could have kept running with the ball as long as he wanted to as long as he didn't place 2 hands on the ball?



HELL YEAH! Secret weapon!


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

^He didn't prove anything. He posted section III of the NBA bylaws, but naturally ignores rules 2-7 and just focus' on the one interpretation that concurs with his theory, even tho clearly it doesnt apply to every situation..... 

There's overriding interpretations of the rule that clearly show LeBron traveled. Namely, rules #2 & #3. You dont have to argue it ChrisRichard becuz it's in the bylaws.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I think you guys will just have to agree to disagree.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> I think you guys will just have to agree to disagree.


it's not opinion. he's factually incorrect.


----------



## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

kflo said:


> it's not opinion. he's factually incorrect.


Like the time you told me I was making things up when I said holding the ball with 2 hands ends a dribble?

To me, the issue is clear. He didn't end the dribble until his 2nd hand was on the ball. and THAT happened after his right foot was already on the ground, so he only took two steps.

As I said, I have nothing more to say. Agree to disagree, but the issue is not as clear cut as previously thought. LeBron has a case.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

again, are you suggesting that lebron could have kept running with the ball as long as he wanted to as long as he didn't place 2 hands on the ball?


----------



## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

VanillaPrice said:


> Well, it is one of his signature moves apparently.


What really bothers me (and please stop calling me a hater, I've been pointing out on his travels for a while and every time I got the same "oh why you hate dude" talk) - is that he said - that's his SIGNATURE move.

He is not even AWARE of basic basketball rules. 

He said it in post game interview. He said he does it all the time. AND HE DOES - it's true, he didn't lie!!

And they let him pass over and over and over...and over...and...over...again.

And may I just say, this is this one time that they've whistled for this. I bet anybody any money - you won't hear these calls in Playoffs. 

I think it's pretty obvious that he doesn't have any basics of the game implemented in him. 

I don't know about you guys, but when I play the game and make 2 steps, I instinctively look where to throw the ball or get rid of it, not because I think about it, but because it's unnatural and weird for me to make 3 steps any time on the basketball court. I just can't do it.

I remember in high-school when we played handball, I sucked BAD. 

You're allowed to take 3 steps there. I couldn't do it. At all. And I don't understand how can he do that night in night out. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when someone shows you the basketball when you're a kid and gets to show you the rules, FIRST rules he tells you is;

- you can't dribble like this (double dribble),
- and you can't take more then 2 steps in any situation.

I don't understand it.


----------



## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

ChrisRichards said:


> I have already posted the NBA definition of dribbling.
> 
> He was still in the act of dribbling.


No he's not. The ball has come to a stop and is not going to touch the floor again. Thus, the dribbling is complete.


----------



## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Look at this...I mean, this could go on for days.


----------



## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

the call is very close. I would like to see the replay much slower but by looking at the video, it comes off as if he took 3 steps while both his hands were on the ball.


----------



## EuroScout (Jun 4, 2003)

kflo said:


> cr - are you suggesting that lebron could have kept running with the ball as long as he wanted to as long as he didn't place 2 hands on the ball?


QFT

LMAO, I bet the people who believe that's not a travel has never play basketball...

It's so obvious, it takes "super homer glasses" to not see it.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

How does some bull**** like this go 78 posts?


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

Dre™ said:


> How does some bull**** like this go 78 posts?


chris richards


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

EuroScout said:


> QFT
> 
> LMAO, I bet the people who believe that's not a travel has never play basketball...
> 
> It's so obvious, it takes "super homer glasses" to not see it.


True. But you have to admit it takes some super hater goggles to constantly pop up threads like these. I know those were not Basel's and more than one of the posters' intentions on this particular thread, but there is some ridiculous Lebron hate going on.


----------



## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

I find it ironic that EuroScout quotes KFLO and talks about people not knowing basketball when it was KFLO who didn't know that 2 hands on the ball is the end of a dribble.

-----------

*1) LeBron DOES NOT land with 2 feet. Watch it closely.*

2) This whole argument rests with the moment at 0:54. Most of you think that he is cupping the ball and that's what ended the dribble. 

The question is - did he cup the ball *conclusively* BEFORE or AFTER the right foot is on the ground?

I watch it again, and it's after. Everything before the right foot is on the ground can still be considered part of the dribble.


Really, it's a close call. I say it's not a travel. I understand where LeBron is coming from on this issue. 

*He did it on purpose. He said it's his move*.....he intentionally only grabbed the ball with 2 hands AFTER his right foot was down.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

kflo said:


> again, are you suggesting that lebron could have kept running with the ball as long as he wanted to as long as he didn't place 2 hands on the ball?


Why has ChrisRichards still not answered this question?


----------



## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

cause it's a silly question. as long as you dribble, you are fine. every time you bounce the ball down to the ground and wait for it to come back up, you decide how high the bounce goes before you apply downwards pressure for another dribble.

this whole process is dribbling. pushing the ball down, waiting for it to come back up, and once it comes back to your hand, that's a dribble. 

LeBron decides, as long as he doesn't pick up the ball and cup it, he decides at what point he pushes the ball back down to the ground to continue dribbling. it just so happens in this case, he was exploiting a *longer* dribble to wait for his right foot to land on the ground.


LeBron is saying that his dribble wasn't over yet at 0:54 because he didn't cup or palm the ball yet, he didn't end his dribble. To LeBron, he ended his dribble when he lifted the ball and placed his 2nd hand on it, and this happened AFTER his right foot is on the ground. the rules say this is when you start counting. 

with that explanation, 2 steps, not 3.

why would i answer a silly question? thats why i didnt waste my time with it


----------



## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

ChrisRichards said:


> I find it ironic that EuroScout quotes KFLO and talks about people not knowing basketball when it was KFLO who didn't know that 2 hands on the ball is the end of a dribble.


Picking up the basketball with 2 hands ends a dribble but so does holding the ball carrying the ball with 1 hand and proceeding to make consecutive steps to the basket. Steps start to be counted when a players last dribble has ended. The exception you found in the rule book is if a player receives the ball in the form of a pass, rebound, or loose ball. Clearly, LeBron made an isolation move to the basket and that's why 95% of us believe that it is a travel.


----------



## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

Yes that is true. 

That is the argument, did LeBron end his dribble *conclusively* or "cup the ball" BEFORE or AFTER his right foot touched the ground at 0:54?

In my eyes, it was after. Everything that happened before 0:54, to me, is still dribbling. He could technically push the ball back down to the ground at a weirder angle and it would be a legal dribble. He didn't cup the ball yet, in my eyes, until after the right foot is on the ground. I am sure LeBron timed it to do this.

Anyway, If it was after, then it's not a travel because it's only 2 steps.


----------



## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

This is how you win games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhbM6uuCt74

LOL


----------



## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

DNKO said:


> What really bothers me (and please stop calling me a hater, I've been pointing out on his travels for a while and every time I got the same "oh why you hate dude" talk) - is that he said - that's his SIGNATURE move.
> 
> He is not even AWARE of basic basketball rules.
> 
> ...


Not to mention, if you play ball in the playground you'll get called for travelling with a quickness.


----------



## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

Someone already posted that in this thread. So what? Is this the "LOL LEBRON SUCKS HE TRAVELS" thread?






Game 1 vs Spurs. Kobe Bryant traveling to China and back.

it happens a lot.


----------



## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

DNKO said:


> This is how you win games.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhbM6uuCt74
> 
> LOL


lol 

here's one sure to get people pissed off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzYeqrDwajs


----------



## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Richards, are you seriously gonna act like you don't know that the issue we're talking about here is the FREQUENCY of travelings James does?

He does it ALL the time. All the time. And this last video I posted...see I was watching other game that day and just saw - Wizards lost.

And now I see - they lost because refs allowed them to lose. 

Are you trying to level his constant habit of travels with one missed call on Kobe? That makes it equal?

Damn Rich, you really are trying your best here, I can't lie.


----------



## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

ChrisRichards said:


> Someone already posted that in this thread. So what? Is this the "LOL LEBRON SUCKS HE TRAVELS" thread?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea, that was a terrible one.

BUT, 

that's not his admitted "go-to signature move"


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

LeBron needs to work on his pro-hop. If he wants that to be his signature move, he should to learn how to do it w/o traveling.... I hope the refs start calling him on that, the Wizards got screwed in the playoffs, at least refs got it right last night tho.


----------



## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

as long as you continue to dribble the ball, you can dance the macarena and it's not a travel. 

sorry tragedy, but your video sucks. MJ can sit there and dance all night as long as he is dribbling.


----------



## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Blue Magic said:


> he should to learn how to do it w/o traveling....


I don't think you can change that kind of habit once you start playing as frequent as pros do.



Blue Magic said:


> at least refs got it right last night tho.


As I've already said, you won't hear those calls come Playoffs. No way in hell.


----------



## COJOJAX (Jan 4, 2009)

DNKO - who are you kidding? His moves are legit.

Popular too. I see the really young kids practicing the "run with the ball" move all the time.


----------



## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

ChrisRichards said:


> as long as you continue to dribble the ball, you can dance the macarena and it's not a travel.
> 
> sorry tragedy, but your video sucks


OK but that video is clearly made by some infant Kobe homer, notice the impeccable editing whisper cue at the beginning...but hey, as long as they're happy...


----------



## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

ChrisRichards said:


> as long as you continue to dribble the ball, you can dance the macarena and it's not a travel.
> 
> sorry tragedy, but your video sucks. MJ can sit there and dance all night as long as he is dribbling.


Uh, no. Two steps for every time it touches the floor.

I remember when Rafer Alston first got into the league. He'd do some borderline And 1 stuff, silly harmless dribbles in a stationary position. Got called every time.

Got it out his system and now he's doing pretty well.

You're only supporting it because it's not Kobe we're talking about.


----------



## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

DNKO said:


> OK but that video is clearly made by some infant Kobe homer, notice the impeccable editing whisper cue at the beginning...but hey, as long as they're happy...


Yea it is, but I just thought it's funny.


----------



## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

DNKO said:


> Richards, are you seriously gonna act like you don't know that the issue we're talking about here is the FREQUENCY of travelings James does?
> 
> He does it ALL the time. All the time. And this last video I posted...see I was watching other game that day and just saw - Wizards lost.
> 
> ...


Nope. I'm not trying to do that. If that is what you were arguing, I can't participate. I am only arguing that -1- video in Basel's original post. That video was not a travel.

I don't watch James' feet every single game to be able to tell you whether or not he travels as a constant habit.


----------



## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

Tragedy said:


> Uh, no. Two steps for every time it touches the floor.
> 
> I remember when Rafer Alston first got into the league. He'd do some borderline And 1 stuff, silly harmless dribbles in a stationary position. Got called every time.
> 
> ...


Nope. I am supporting it because I really thought that you can dance all you want as long as you dribble.

I read the NBA Rules and it doesn't say anything about 2 steps for every time it touches the floor. Where did you get that from?



NBA Rules said:


> Section III-Dribble
> A dribble is movement of the ball, caused by a player in control, who throws or taps the ball into the air or to the floor.
> a. The dribble ends when the dribbler:
> (1) Touches the ball simultaneously with both hands
> ...


Where does it say 2 steps for every time the ball touches the floor?


----------



## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

COJOJAX said:


> DNKO - who are you kidding? His moves are legit.
> 
> Popular too. I see the really young kids practicing the "run with the ball" move all the time.


What is scary is that this actually is true.

He's a top NBA star and kids emulate him, and frankly, his style of play isn't exactly what one would call "beautiful" or "fluid" or whatever, and on top of that, he constantly makes mistakes with ball dribbling, and kids are actually arguing is it right or not.

LOL

It's almost as the great depression era of street basketball back in 2000, when And1 hit the streets and everyone here started to dribble underneath the shirt, over the back, around the head, between the fence, double hop, elbow punch a ball, spin it on your nose type moves rather than playing. Basketball.

Not good.


----------



## COJOJAX (Jan 4, 2009)

ChrisRichards said:


> Nope. I am supporting it because I really thought that you can dance all you want as long as you dribble.
> 
> I read the NBA Rules and it doesn't say anything about 2 steps for every time it touches the floor. Where did you get that from?
> 
> ...


Doesn't the "Permits the ball to come to rest while he is in control of it" deal apply to this?


----------



## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

If you are constantly dribbling, how is that bringing the ball to rest?

As long as you are dribbling constantly, your feet can move all they want. you can even jump as long as you keep dribbling the whole time


----------



## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

ChrisRichards said:


> Where does it say 2 steps for every time the ball touches the floor?


OK

I swear this is off the top of my head but I'm 99,999% that it is correct, if not, I've been playing wrong basketball all my life.

- you stand in one place - you get the ball - if you decide to grab the ball with both hands you can stand in place, pivot with one foot, and go off dribbling if you like

- if you run and you're about to receive a pass - you CAN grab it with both hands - BUT all in ONE step. And continue running. 

- if you go for a layup - you can put the ball under your armpits if you want to, and go for 2 steps.

Once you stop dribbling, you can either

- take 2 steps, with the step 2 being a jump step

- or you can stop in place and pivot with one foot.

James clearly traveled here. 3 steps. 

At the free throw line, he grabs the ball with both hands. Therefore - the dribble STOPS. He pushes himself with his right foot.

Then, he plants on left foot and quickly after, the "crab" move, quickly plants on his right (strong leg) and jumps off his right foot.

Clear travel, I don't know why there's even a remote doubt about it.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

the quote you quoted from me was a question to Tragedy about the Jordan video he posted. not about lebron


----------



## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3812091

Oh boy, it's heating up, somebody is going to have to radically change his dribbling habits.




> I watched it again, and I took a 'crab dribble,' which is a hesitation dribble, and then two steps."


Oh my.



> "'Crab dribble' is when you, uh, travel," Butler said. "That's the hottest thing on the market right now."
> 
> Turning to a more serious explanation, Butler said he thought James switched his pivot foot.
> 
> "I couldn't do it in AAU, I couldn't do it in college," Butler said, "and obviously I can't do it now."


----------



## Omega (Apr 11, 2005)

it was a travel because he took three very clear steps after the ball had last come up from the ground. and the ball was in his possession throughout. thus travel. and he was also going for a field goal to boot so even by the technicalities you were throwing out you would be wrong. and you=ChrisRichards. there is no matter of opinion there is no agree to disagree. would you agree to disagree with someone if they said "no. adolf hitler clearly was leader of the French Bulldog for Life party and not the Nazis. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree!"


----------



## EuroScout (Jun 4, 2003)

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> True. But you have to admit it takes some super hater goggles to constantly pop up threads like these. I know those were not Basel's and more than one of the posters' intentions on this particular thread, but there is some ridiculous Lebron hate going on.


it's not about hating,for example kobe against the spurs was clearly a travel too, the difference is nobody even Kobe argue that is not a travel.

Refs need to be consistant, they allow to many travel especially for superstars, Lebron is already unstoppable if u give him 3 steps or even 4 steps(like in the playoffs 2 years ago) that's just unfair.

when a superstar don't even know after watching severals time the replay that he did travel, and call that is "go to move" u know there is a problem


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

OneBadLT123 said:


> Man he got away with murder 2 years ago. Unbelievable.


So did Brendan Haywood moments before that with a missed goaltending call. It sucks. Fortunately in that game it evened out.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Lol, it's a travel.

[/thread]


----------



## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

> "I watched it again, and I took a 'crab dribble,' which is a hesitation dribble, and then two steps," James said.





> "'Crab dribble' is when you, uh, travel," Butler said. "That's the hottest thing on the market right now."





> Asked Monday if he knows what a "crab dribble" is, Wizards All-Star forward Antawn Jamison said, "I know what a traveling is.


:rofl:


----------



## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

I'm shocked that they made the call. Was it a travel? Hell yeah it was a travel but at that time of the game and the fact that it was LeBron made it surprising. I'm glad the ref made the call though.


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Am I wrong to think that it wouldn't have been a travel if:

Bron landed on both his feet and then hopped?
or
in the same movement that he did, he dribble the ball one more time instead?


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

There's too much whining in the NBA. When did it become the National Whining Association. ****, even the fans are whiners now! They need to eliminate some rules, open up the game, and shorten the number of tv timeouts. This whole handchecking rule has made it so that players have to commit blocking violations when guarding their man, one on one's favor the offensive player too often, and have removed the physicality of the NBA where players complain about being touched when playing.


----------



## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Brandname said:


> So did Brendan Haywood moments before that with a missed goaltending call. It sucks. Fortunately in that game it evened out.


A missed goaltend is one thing; a 5 step travel is another.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

f22egl said:


> A missed goaltend is one thing; a 5 step travel is another.


They're both rules that were broken and not called that resulted in an incorrect scoring of points. Why is one more important than the other?


----------



## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Bill Spooner, the ref who called the traveling violation



> "3 steps on the move to the basket. Basic travel call."


Quote from Caron Butler




> "'Crab dribble' is when you, uh, travel," Butler said. "That's the hottest thing on the market right now."
> 
> Turning to a more serious explanation, Butler said he thought James switched his pivot foot.
> 
> "I couldn't do it in AAU, I couldn't do it in college," Butler said, "and obviously I can't do it now."


http://www.sportsline.com/nba/story/11226889


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Dee-Zy said:


> Am I wrong to think that it wouldn't have been a travel if:
> 
> Bron landed on both his feet and then hopped?
> or
> in the same movement that he did, he dribble the ball one more time instead?


Yeah, if he went with the pro-hop instead of his newly patented 'crab-dribble' he would've been fine, and we wouldn't be sitting here having this discusion right now. LeBron is trying to make his own set rules as he goes... I know he calls himself 'King James', but that's not how it works. A 'crab-dribble' is what is generally has also been known as a travel.


----------



## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

I believe the two people who voted that LeBron didnt travel should be Named and Shamed.

*Named and Shamed
I say
Named and Shamed*


----------



## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

IceMan23and3 said:


> They're both rules that were broken and not called that resulted in an incorrect scoring of points. Why is one more important than the other?


For one thing, the goaltend requires video evidence. To be honest, I don't remember it and it requires a second look as did the traveling violation on LeBron.


----------



## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

I just watched the highlights of the game to look for the mysterious goaltend and guess what? LeBron traveled on two separate occasions in the final minute which led to two Cleveland field goals. Didn't find clip of goaltend.

http://broadband.nba.com/cc/playa.p...recap_p133_clewas.asx&video=blank&nbasite=nba


----------



## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

I don't think Lebron was arguing the validity of the call. He was more like "Are you serious? I'm Lebron ****ing James!!"


----------



## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

f22egl said:


> I just watched the highlights of the game to look for the mysterious goaltend and guess what? LeBron traveled on two separate occasions in the final minute which led to two Cleveland field goals. Didn't find clip of goaltend.
> 
> http://broadband.nba.com/cc/playa.p...recap_p133_clewas.asx&video=blank&nbasite=nba



Hey, I'm not from US but seeing your location - are you familiar with a person called Peter Rosenberg, radio host?

Anyway - no use of pointing out James' travels. It's really happening on every game basis and it's nothing to get concerned about.

It's only worrying if he does it when the outcome of the game is on the line.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Dee-Zy said:


> Am I wrong to think that it wouldn't have been a travel if:
> 
> Bron landed on both his feet and then hopped?
> or
> in the same movement that he did, he dribble the ball one more time instead?


That was my thinking. I thought the move was pretty sound as an idea, but his timing on the move was off. Timing is usually the difference between great footwork and traveling like a mother****er. It's why he drives so many haters crazy though, because his timing is usually so on the edge, that he sometimes looks like he's traveling when he's actually not. He just moves so fast too, and he's usually being fouled while it's happening, that it's amazing that refs can ever make a call on it. Remember refs don't have instant replay, and they are watching a lot of things at once in real time.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Oh and I think what Lebron is referring to as a "crab dribble" is what Chris Richards is talking about. Where he lets the ball bounce really high on his dribble into his cupped(crabbed) hand, before controlling it and going on with the move. That's why he is saying that the first step is after that. It IS a debate of when Lebron actually stopped his dribble.

I can show you youtubes of Michael Jordan taking five steps between two dribbles in similar moves that weren't called double dribbles.


----------



## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

futuristxen said:


> I can show you youtubes of Michael Jordan taking five steps between two dribbles in similar moves that weren't called double dribbles.


Damn. I know the video. That video has already been posted here.

That was not a double dribble.


----------



## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

ChrisRichards said:


> Where's your argument?
> 
> none? ok, go back to your hole.


I don't need an argument, the video speaks for itself.
Travelling was so obvious,refs HAD to call it,otherwise he would probably get away with another one.
(besides,I think the future of NBA would be in serious trouble if Lebron would get away with this in every game-get the ball on the 3pt line,hold it,take one large step+one bunny hop and lay it in)


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

kirov said:


> I don't need an argument, the video speaks for itself.
> Travelling was so obvious,refs HAD to call it,otherwise he would probably get away with another one.
> (besides,I think the future of NBA would be in serious trouble if Lebron would get away with this in every game-get the ball on the 3pt line,hold it,take one large step+one bunny hop and lay it in)


Just to note, it wouldn't have been a travel had both his feet hit the ground at the same time and took off from both feet. That's pretty much Wade's bread and butter-- his ability to jump stop better than anyone else in the league.


----------



## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

Caron Butler is on the wizards. whatever he says about LeBron is biased


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> That was my thinking. I thought the move was pretty sound as an idea, but his timing on the move was off. Timing is usually the difference between great footwork and traveling like a mother****er. It's why he drives so many haters crazy though, because his timing is usually so on the edge, that he sometimes looks like he's traveling when he's actually not. He just moves so fast too, and he's usually being fouled while it's happening, that it's amazing that refs can ever make a call on it. Remember refs don't have instant replay, and they are watching a lot of things at once in real time.


I think it's funny that LeBron haters drive you crazy when it's the same stuff you were doing to Kobe back in the day.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

ChrisRichards said:


> Yes that is true.
> 
> That is the argument, did LeBron end his dribble *conclusively* or "cup the ball" BEFORE or AFTER his right foot touched the ground at 0:54?
> 
> ...


sometimes it really is easier to just say i was wrong.

so, from above, you're acknowledging that it's no longer the 2nd hand on ball that stops the dribble, it's the "cupping"? all that rules quoting highlighting "both hands", and now we're focusing on cupping? all that analysis from you that starts the clock when his 2nd hand touches the ball, and now it's the cupping that starts the clock, but the result of your analysis is the same?

again, just acknowledge at this point you don't really know what you're talking about. 

or, you probably should quote the rule that states cupping the ball is where the dribble ends.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Oh and I think what Lebron is referring to as a "crab dribble" is what Chris Richards is talking about. Where he lets the ball bounce really high on his dribble into his cupped(crabbed) hand, before controlling it and going on with the move. That's why he is saying that the first step is after that. It IS a debate of when Lebron actually stopped his dribble.
> 
> I can show you youtubes of Michael Jordan taking five steps between two dribbles in similar moves that weren't called double dribbles.


lebron does nothing different on this move than every other player - he dribbles, then he picks up his dribble on his drive. there's no really high dribble, there's no special dribble, it's the same motion every player does - the only difference is in how he takes the steps afterwards, and how he brings the ball up high mid-move.


----------



## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

DNKO said:


> Hey, I'm not from US but seeing your location - are you familiar with a person called Peter Rosenberg, radio host?
> 
> Anyway - no use of pointing out James' travels. It's really happening on every game basis and it's nothing to get concerned about.
> 
> It's only worrying if he does it when the outcome of the game is on the line.



No I'm not familiar with Peter Rosenberg.

The game I was referring to was Game 3 of the 2006 playoffs. I agree it's nothing new but I almost forgot that LeBron had traveled on two separate occasions which ultimately gave the Cavs the win in the final minute of the game. 

I think LeBron is a great player but the game should not be handicapped in his favor by the refs especially during the closing moments of a game. LeBron can finish game winners without the refs help as indicated by game 5 of the 2006 against the Wizards.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Jalen Rose on the "crab dribble" - with a slow-mo replay

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpQBD672HkQ

And here's an example of the crab dribble

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5m0GjaBYio


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

Travel!


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## kzero (Apr 30, 2006)

The way I see it is at 0:54, instead of doing that two-step bunny hop, if he were to dribble again, that would be considered a carry because of the discontinuation in his dribble. Due to that discontinuation, I would consider that "first step" his first step in the move to attack the basket.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

He *still* doesn't get it??? 

_INDEPENDENCE, Ohio -- LeBron James is still talkin' the walk.

Two days after he was surprisingly whistled for traveling in the closing seconds of Cleveland's 80-77 loss at Washington, James maintains his "crab dribble" was legal and that he has no plans to remove it from his arsenal.

The Cavaliers superstar was adamant after the game that he didn't walk. He said it was a "bad call" and that "they [the NBA] need to look at it and they need to understand that's not a travel."

King James hasn't changed his stance.

"*I've done that move plenty of times and I believe it's a good move*," he said after practice on Tuesday. "*If they called it more consistently, then I guess it ain't a good move then and I'll change my game*. But it's not called consistently."

James was driving for a potential tying basket when referee Bill Spooner called him for the traveling violation. James was stunned and so were many of the Wizards, who have complained in the past that James takes extra steps when he attacks the basket.

Spooner explained his call in an e-mail: "3 steps on the move to the basket. Basic travel call."

An NBA spokesman said the league supports Spooner's call.

The did-he-or-didn't-he-walk debate has raged since the final horn, much to James' amusement.

"Everything I do is a big deal," James said, smiling. "It's easy for people who don't play the game of basketball to say something about a certain move. *You hear all the people on SportsCenter talk about it, but they've never touched a basketball in their lives. They just report about it.*"

James appreciates how difficult it is for officials to make split-second decisions in a game where the players are getting bigger, faster and stronger each year.

"It's definitely tough," he said. "We all make mistakes. I'm not downplaying the refs because they do an unbelievable job. I couldn't do it. It is tough because guys can do a lot of things that they couldn't do back in the 60s and 70s."

James raised some eyebrows when he called his infamous move at Washington a "crab dribble," an unknown term to most league observers.

He described it as a hesitation dribble he uses to slow down the defense before he accelerates toward the rim. James feels he should be entitled to two steps once he stops dribbling.

"If they take it away like they've done before with the hop step, I'll find a way to do something else," he said.

During his first two seasons, James often was called for traveling when he would hop on both feet while taking a layup. The league cracked down on his patented move, forcing him to do other things but hardly interrupting his ascent to stardom.

"How have I fared after that?" he deadpanned. "I'll be fine if they take this away, too."_
























So what if Sports centre guys didn't pick up a basketball in their life (which I'm more than sure they did?)

He probably didn't even finish high school and didn't read a book in his life, who is he to judge??

Marvelous.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Lebron is either stupid or blind if he thinks he didn't travel. 3 steps in the NBA = traveling.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

The "they haven't picked up a ball in their life" argument is pointless and played out. First because it isn't true, and just because you're good at something it doesn't make you an expert on it. Magic coaching, Jordan GM'ing, and opposites such as Lawrence Frank coaching and there are many other countless examples. But it's just a dumb comment overall. The logic Lebron uses is so idiotic and can be applied to him on numerous occasions.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Idunkonyou said:


> Lebron is either stupid or blind if he thinks he didn't travel. 3 steps in the NBA = traveling.


Lebron is an attention monger for better or worse: whether he honestly thinks he traveled or not, he certainly talked it up to bring as much overage as possible


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

he might be digging things deeper for himself... they might look at it more, but the more they look, the more its just going to re-enforce that its a blatent travel


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm amazed this topic has reached 10 pages.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Well, it is the NBA, where amazing happens, so...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGiBXYJiTF8&fmt=18


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

So 5 people voted no, lmao


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

S2theONIC said:


> So 5 people voted no, lmao


Lebron Stans. :nonono:


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

That was the most blatant travel I've ever seen. It's pathetic if he believes that was a legal move.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

LMAAOOO 

http://www.sports-tube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=6b2bfdeaa12647e3bb1c


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

DNKO said:


> He *still* doesn't get it???
> 
> _INDEPENDENCE, Ohio -- LeBron James is still talkin' the walk.
> 
> ...


LMFAO @ THE KING. 

He's going down in flames on this one, and he's making things worse for himself in the spotlight, and in the arena where he is actually one of the great players. To bad, guy just needs to brighten up, and be humbled. Maybe Cavs will lose in the 1st round because James gets called for traveling due to the Crab Dribble!!!


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

lol @ jalen rose. guess that settles it.


----------



## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

DNKO said:


> LMAAOOO
> 
> http://www.sports-tube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=6b2bfdeaa12647e3bb1c


Well, Jalen Rose shut this one down pretty good.. :laugh:


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

lebron hate here is sickening and kinda fun


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

Jalen Rose is not god. ISn't he the one who was playing D on kobe's 81? not sure LOL






0:01 to 0:03 seconds.

the ball COMING BACK UP TO HIS HAND DOES NOT = STOPPED THE DRIBBLE.

he stopped the dribble AFTER his right foot was down.

-TWO STEPS-

i don't understand how you guys are ignoring that. he stopped the dribble AFTER his right foot was down. You have to begin the count AFTER the right foot is down. -2- steps

*LOOK AT HIS RIGHT FOOT. IT TOUCHES THE GROUND A SPLIT SECOND BEFORE HE ENDS THE DRIBBLE*

The ball bouncing back up to his hand does NOT = end dribble


It's clear as freaking day. look at the damn replay and look at what I am telling you.


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

omg,this thread is going for another 10 pages...
Lebron,what a douche,not long ago he insulted Barkley,now he's insulting guys on SportCenter, I had nothing against Lebron but now I'm actually disliking the guy...


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

Barkley insulted him first. barkley is a moron


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

ChrisRichards said:


> Barkley insulted him first. barkley is a moron


Yes,I know,and the refs insulted him also,I mean after all he's the king.


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

For the note you're getting everything wrong,lebron when he turns(at the very beginning of the drive) and makes a moves,the ball first touches the ground,then the left leg touches the ground so when the right leg hits the ground it's already one step,it doesn't matter where the dribble ends or when he puts both hands on the ball...


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

ChrisRichards said:


> Barkley insulted him first. barkley is a moron


Well that's just turrubul what you've just said...

Chuck is not a role model. 

Anyone talking reckless against Sir Charles is a knucklehead. 

I still don't understand how can James get so easily away with flat out calling Chuckster "stupid".

But, seeing that after 3 days and who knows how many replays of that play, and still claiming he doesn't see nothing wrong with his lobster shuffle - I think it's more than safe to say - oh the irony.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

looking at it further, I see maybe some support for the case of ChrisRichards. he [LeBron] did take that first step with the right leg before placing both hands on the ball. but with the speed of the game, referees have to make snap decisions sometimes based on the intent of the offensive player. thats not to mention that the move executed as it stands is good for 2 and one half steps, which is a half over the legal limit.

so, it was a good call either way. its also good to see that the league stood behind Spooner on the call (not that they ever turn their back on their own). a message needs to be sent to these guys, to clean up the miscues.


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

counting of steps starts at 0:17 with the left leg not with the right leg afterwards...you're discussing something that is irrelevant...


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

the ball is on the floor at 0:17.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

when the ball is bouncing back up, that's still part of the dribble.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

sherako said:


> looking at it further, I see maybe some support for the case of ChrisRichards. he [LeBron] did take that first step with the right leg before placing both hands on the ball. but with the speed of the game, referees have to make snap decisions sometimes based on the intent of the offensive player. thats not to mention that the move executed as it stands is good for 2 and one half steps, which is a half over the legal limit.
> 
> so, it was a good call either way. its also good to see that the league stood behind Spooner on the call (not that they ever turn their back on their own). a message needs to be sent to these guys, to clean up the miscues.


when he places his 2nd hand on the ball is not relevant.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

kflo said:


> when he places his 2nd hand on the ball is not relevant.


based on what exactly?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

sherako said:


> based on what exactly?


based on the fact that you can indefinitely postpone putting the 2nd hand on the ball. and that doesn't indefinitely postpone a traveling violation.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

It doesn't take 10 pages of quoting the NBA rule book, interpreting its rules and then picking apart parts of it. You're dissecting Lebron's "crab dribble" part by part along with interpretations of different criteria for what constitutes a travel to prove the move is legal when anyone can see that is a clear as day travel.

Theres a reason sports analysts, NBA refs, NBA players, and about 95% of us here including probably most Cavs fans are calling it a travel - because it certainly is. 

Doesn't matter when he stopped dribbling the ball by determining when exactly his second hand came into contact with the ball, anyone that has played competitive officiated basketball knows its not legal to make 3-4 steps into 2 by 'delaying' a dribble by not holding onto the ball..


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

kirov said:


> omg,this thread is going for another 10 pages...
> Lebron,what a douche,not long ago he insulted Barkley,now he's insulting guys on SportCenter, I had nothing against Lebron but now I'm actually disliking the guy...


I like Lebron more than ******* barkley and sportscenter. Sportscenter is the most worthless thing on Television. None of their NBA people know what they are talking about. And Barkley is a comedian first. He's not exactly a bright basketball mind. Kenny is smarter than him.


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

Good for you. I just think you shouldn't make some idiotic comments when you're wrong as is the case with Lebron...whatever,I don't care...
I guess we can rule out that cliche in lebron's case-young,talented,rich and yet so modest...
Who said the ball wasn't on the floor at 0:17? this is ridiculous, I say one thing,you say another and we're going in circles.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

kirov said:


> Good for you. I just think you shouldn't make some idiotic comments when you're wrong as is the case with Lebron..


Who are you to tell Lebron he can't speak? It's people like you that are the reason why sports is so less colorful. This notion that athletes should just shut up and play, takes the personality out of the game. Athletes should talk whenever they want about whatever they want. Just like everyone else in society.

Why should your opinion matter any more or less just because you are Lebron James?


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

ChrisRichards said:


> Jalen Rose is not god. ISn't he the one who was playing D on kobe's 81? not sure LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


actually, yes. The ball was at rest because it did not go back down thus the dribble did end. The dribble ended when it touched his hand because he did not tapped the ball back on the floor, thus "The ball was at rest". It doesn't matter when he puts two hands on it. If you look at it right, the ball went back in his hand *before* he his right foot came down, thus that counts as the first step.


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Who are you to tell Lebron he can't speak? It's people like you that are the reason why sports is so less colorful. This notion that athletes should just shut up and play, takes the personality out of the game. Athletes should talk whenever they want about whatever they want. Just like everyone else in society.
> 
> Why should your opinion matter any more or less just because you are Lebron James?


Don't generalize things.I didn't say players should just shut up and play. You should talk if you want,you should talk less when you're wrong and ESPECIALLY don't talk so disrespectful to others.he was being disrespectful and is being wrong.I'm sure you can say something more proper than ''You hear all the people on SportsCenter talk about it, but they've never touched a basketball in their lives''. he acts like some poor,little thing who just got struck with the biggest injustice in the whole universe.
I'm just glad you got me a whole Dr.Phil report on why sports is so less colorful,leave me the **** alone i'm just expressing my opinion,that's why we're here.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

I had an elegant post addressing some key issues in the topic, but the site canceled out on me. how annoying.

to sum up, obviously it is a travel by any means [and I stated as such numerous times], even with inclusion of the two-handed provision being espoused by some. but where I found value in the thread is discussing the variations of a travel as defined by the nba.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

> I like Lebron more than ******* barkley and sportscenter.


I think we ALL know that. :wink:


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

sherako said:


> I think we ALL know that. :wink:


I think if we did a poll, we'd find the majority of the site agree with me on that point. I bet most people on this forum like watching Lebron over ****ing Charles Barkley. Charles is not exactly a handsome man, and watching Lebron play is certainly less of a physical investment.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

sherako said:


> I had an elegant post addressing some key issues in the topic, but the site canceled out on me. how annoying.
> 
> to sum up, obviously it is a travel by any means [and I stated as such numerous times], even with inclusion of the two-handed provision being espoused by some. but where I found value in the thread is discussing the variations of a travel as defined by the nba.


but this should be put to rest - there is no 2 hand provision/requirement. it is but one of the ways a dribble ends. even the person who espoused this provision has backed off of it as being relevant in this case.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

futuristxen said:


> I bet most people on this forum like watching Lebron over ****ing Charles Barkley. Charles is not exactly a handsome man, and watching Lebron play is certainly less of a physical investment.


Wh-wh-what the **** are you saying?

You are going very far on your hate-Chuck campaign.

Make a poll. Do it. I bet lot more people enjoy Chucks flamboyant outspoken grown child behavior then James'...uhmm...well...I don't know. 

But I'm sure you find James all sorts of funny, intelligent and...handsome?


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)




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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> I like Lebron more than ******* barkley and sportscenter. Sportscenter is the most worthless thing on Television. None of their NBA people know what they are talking about. And Barkley is a comedian first. He's not exactly a bright basketball mind. Kenny is smarter than him.


Yes, Charles Barkely doesn't know anything about basketball. It's not like he's one of the 50 greatest players of all time.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> I think if we did a poll, we'd find the majority of the site agree with me on that point. I bet most people on this forum like watching Lebron over ****ing Charles Barkley. Charles is not exactly a handsome man, and watching Lebron play is certainly less of a physical investment.


Does watching less attractive men make activities more physical for you? Personally, I would rather listen to Charles Barkely talk about basketball than listen to LeBron James talk about basketball.


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

page 20 here we come


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Comments on that last picture?


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

DNKO said:


> Comments on that last picture?


fake


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

fake picture. Step #1 in the picture is taken way too late in the sequence. it has to be taken at the precise moment the right foot touches the ground.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

ChrisRichards said:


> fake picture. Step #1 in the picture is taken way too late in the sequence. it has to be taken at the precise moment the right foot touches the ground.


----------



## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)




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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

ChrisRichards said:


> lol


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

My humble apologies to Chris and futurix and others that voted that this wasn't a travel.

I was wrong, this video just came in.


I feel ashamed now, I was outspoken too much on this one and now reality slaps me back in the face...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jvcfouEiSw&fmt=18


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

f22egl said:


> Does watching less attractive men make activities more physical for you? Personally, I would rather listen to Charles Barkely talk about basketball than listen to LeBron James talk about basketball.


Wow. That went way over your head, huh? Sherako and I were sharing a grownup joke. Sorry.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> I think if we did a poll, we'd find the majority of the site agree with me on that point. I bet most people on this forum like watching Lebron over ****ing Charles Barkley. Charles is not exactly a handsome man, and watching Lebron play is certainly less of a physical investment.


You're such a weirdo. Who cares if Charles is handsome or not? I'd rather watch Barkley yammer away than watch lebron crab dribble. That's for sure.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Wow. That went way over your head, huh? Sherako and I were sharing a grownup joke. Sorry.


I missed the joke; probably because it wasn't funny. Shouldn't watching more attractive men make it more physical for you?


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

DNKO said:


> ChrisRichards said:
> 
> 
> > fake picture. Step #1 in the picture is taken way too late in the sequence. it has to be taken at the precise moment the right foot touches the ground.


:lol:


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Tragedy said:


> You're such a weirdo. Who cares if Charles is handsome or not? I'd rather watch Barkley yammer away than watch lebron crab dribble. That's for sure.


Just in case some people haven't realized this yet, futuristxen is a girl, not a guy. Just throwing that out there, as it might make some of her posts make more sense to you guys.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Basel said:


> Just in case some people haven't realized this yet, futuristxen is a girl, not a guy. Just throwing that out there, as it might make some of her posts make more sense to you guys.


Dammit Basel!! Why did you have to let everyone in on it!! :azdaja:

I was waiting for some hilarity to ensue!! :sarcasm:


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Basel said:


> Just in case some people haven't realized this yet, futuristxen is a girl, not a guy. Just throwing that out there, as it might make some of her posts make more sense to you guys.


i thought futuristxen was both?


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

*LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*

Is this the dribble LeBron calls the crab dribble ? IMO it's just a blatant travel. For some reason the ref's don't call this a travel, for instance in this clip you see. LeBron does indeed travel, but no whistle from the ref. Good thing for the Bulls Tyrus Thomas was able to stop LeBron with stellar defense in the block. Back on point though, is this the crab dribble ?

Please give me your break down of the play, and why it wasn't called a travel ?


----------



## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

*Re: LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*

The original crab dribble thread:

http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-...-james-crab-dribble-constitute-traveling.html

That one looks a lot like the one called against the Wizards.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

*Re: LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*

It's not called a travel because it isn't travel. Why is that you ask? We are so used to seeing guys take off on one foot, and furthermore, seeing guys stop if they plant with two feet. In that play, had he just stopped there instead of going back up, and maybe then took a jumpshot nobody would say anything. However, because he goes right back up everyone thinks it's a dribble. He takes two steps (legal) and hops, plants, and then takes off again. It's perfectly legal. We are just so used to seeing that plant being very loud and forceful. Like, they dribble into the lane, jump, PLANT (wait for about 2 seconds) and then fade away or something. He just does it very quickly, thus it looks like blatant travel. 

What I will note is that sometimes he doesn't exactly do it perfectly (as he does it quickly) and therefore it becomes a travel, ala the one against the Wizards. If you note in the Wizards video he steps through, he doesn't plant with two feet, and therefore he establishes a pivot and then violates that pivot. In the video he came down with two feet, and then went right back up without violating a pivot.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

*Re: LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*

James takes at least 2 steps and then does a jump stop. That's 3 steps and last time I checked, 3 steps is traveling. Not as bad as the one called on the Wizards, it's typical what any NBA superstar would get (Wade, Kobe, AI).


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

*Re: LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*



Hibachi! said:


> It's not called a travel because it isn't travel. Why is that you ask? We are so used to seeing guys take off on one foot, and furthermore, seeing guys stop if they plant with two feet. In that play, had he just stopped there instead of going back up, and maybe then took a jumpshot nobody would say anything. However, because he goes right back up everyone thinks it's a dribble. He takes two steps (legal) and hops, plants, and then takes off again. It's perfectly legal. We are just so used to seeing that plant being very loud and forceful. Like, they dribble into the lane, jump, PLANT (wait for about 2 seconds) and then fade away or something. He just does it very quickly, thus it looks like blatant travel.
> 
> What I will note is that sometimes he doesn't exactly do it perfectly (as he does it quickly) and therefore it becomes a travel, ala the one against the Wizards. If you note in the Wizards video he steps through, he doesn't plant with two feet, and therefore he establishes a pivot and then violates that pivot. In the video he came down with two feet, and then went right back up without violating a pivot.


Uh, I saw 4 steps before he jumped off TWO feet there.


----------



## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

*Re: LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*



f22egl said:


> James takes at least 2 steps and then does a jump stop. That's 3 steps and last time I checked, 3 steps is traveling. Not as bad as the one called on the Wizards, it's typical what any NBA superstar would get (Wade, Kobe, AI).


This.

Normally that hop step is allowed in the NBA, but it is on the 2nd step meaning you take a step, do the hop step and then take the shot, dunk, whatever. If you take another step, that is traveling.

I still find it funny that Lebron just made this crab dribble nonsense up. No one has even heard of it until he named it. I believe Jalen Rose tried to explain it, but then just said it was a travel.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*



Idunkonyou said:


> This.
> 
> Normally that hop step is allowed in the NBA, but it is on the 2nd step meaning you take a step, do the hop step and then take the shot, dunk, whatever. If you take another step, that is traveling.
> 
> I still find it funny that Lebron just made this crab dribble nonsense up. No one has even heard of it until he named it. I believe Jalen Rose tried to explain it, but then just said it was a travel.


The crab dribble is actually taught at some basketball camps. It's basically just that dribble you do when you are backing someone down, with your elbowswide like a crab. Charles Barkley used to crab dribble a lot.

And this moves too fast and is too far away, and too grainy for me to see what steps he took or didn't take. A slow-motion close-up would be needed before I could say anything conclusive.

Don't really care that much though. It's not a travel if they don't call it. You can't go back and retroactively assess a travel. No matter how badly Wizards fans wish you could.


----------



## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

*Re: LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*

LOL he litterally took 4 steps there. Thats a travel anyone arguing it isnt is an idiot and should admit they have no idea what the **** they are talking about.

Great play by the Thomas to deny him, but he shouldnt have had to make that play.


----------



## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

*Re: LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*

Even Ray Charles would have blown his whistle on that play.

That's a travel, there's no debate about it. Take the homer shades off.



futuristxen said:


> The crab dribble is actually taught at some basketball camps. It's basically just that dribble you do when you are backing someone down, with your elbowswide like a crab. Charles Barkley used to crab dribble a lot.
> 
> *And this moves too fast and is too far away, and too grainy for me to see what steps he took or didn't take. A slow-motion close-up would be needed before I could say anything conclusive.*


Double click the video, click the "watch in high quality" option, and repeatedly hit pause. Do a full screen if you must.



> Don't really care that much though. It's not a travel if they don't call it. You can't go back and retroactively assess a travel. No matter how badly Wizards fans wish you could.


I would love to see your reaction if Paul Pierce uses that same move to hit a game winning layup in Game 7 of the East Finals.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

*Re: LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*



futuristxen said:


> It's basically just that dribble you do when you are backing someone down, with your elbowswide like a crab.


Utterly and absolutely wrong. Either you didn't find the right words to describe it, or you don't know what are you talking about, but that's not remotely a good description of crab dribble.



futuristxen said:


> It's not a travel if they don't call it.


Great. So you're actually admitting that he has a problem with a basic basketball rules but the fact that he gets away with it - makes it ok? Marvelous like Marv Albert.



futuristxen said:


> Charles Barkley used to crab dribble a lot.



First of all...

Crab dribble as a LEGIT basketball move has NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING to do with the explanation of James after that Wizards game.

What's even more funny is that he said

"I watched the tapes, I do it all the time, that's crab dribble".

What? Excuse me? 

Crab dribble is this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5m0GjaBYio

And you, being that much of heavily biased James fan, will not be able to prove me that THAT was the move he did against Wizards.

Therefore I can draw the conclusion that James does not know what is he talking about. Point blank period.



About the topic, I think I already addressed this in Bulls forum. He got whistled for 2 travels, and got away with 2 more.


I don't know if I should laugh or cry at the fact that the league is actually debating should they call that more often on him or not.

Eventually, they will stop calling those, and we will have a basketball superstar who's post moves rely solely on breaking the basic fundamental and old basketball rules.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*

I just can't, for the life of me, understand how people who call themselves fans of the game of basketball can defend breaking the rules of the same game. 

The NBA isn't streetball. You can't palm or carry the ball. Or travel. We have it bad enough that refs often swallow the whistle when it's a "superstar" doing it, but actually defend those kind of moves?


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

*Re: LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*



PauloCatarino said:


> I just can't, for the life of me, understand how people who call themselves fans of the game of basketball can defend breaking the rules of the same game.
> 
> The NBA isn't streetball. You can't palm or carry the ball. Or travel. We have it bad enough that refs often swallow the whistle when it's a "superstar" doing it, but actually defend those kind of moves?


I tried to point that exact thing, so many times.

But I would always end up with "every one does it, so what" argument.

So I gave up. 

Just deal with it. Deal with the fact that NBA's most stand out player is constantly breaking the fundamental rule of the game in every game he plays, and there is probably not ONE game you could replay in which he didn't commit traveling violation at least once. It's the way it is and you can't do anything about it, neither can I.


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## kzero (Apr 30, 2006)

They really gotta start calling the two-step-hop-step a travel. I've played a lot of pickup games and whenever someone does it, it gives them a ridiculous advantage because you think they have to go up once they take those two steps so you go for the block, but oh wait, "let me just take another two steps and avoid him because its perfectly legal," yeah right. I'm not saying they're bad players, in fact, they are great players, but the extra step Wade gets on his spin move and LeBron gets on the "crab dribble" makes them appear a little better than they really are.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

For his last step to have been a hop, wouldn't his feet have to have landed at the same time?


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

This is what a crab dribble is; coming to a jump stop in a crouching position and immediately going up with the shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5m0GjaBYio


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Usually when Lebron does this move, he doesn't travel. He has it mastered pretty well.

Occasionally, he does travel.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Yeah, that one against Chi was a travel too. Someone needs to teach this kid the 'pro-hop', a legal move.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> Yeah, that one against Chi was a travel too. Someone needs to teach this kid the 'pro-hop', a legal move.


He does that all the time.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Brandname said:


> He does that all the time.


he normally does this??






How can this not be considered a travel ?


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

23AJ said:


> he normally does this??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, I meant he does the pro hop all the time.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Brandname said:


> No, I meant he does the pro hop all the time.


Yeah, but I've seen 3 clips of him traveling which has proven to me, beyond a doubt, that he always travels.


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## playablue (Dec 30, 2006)

kzero said:


> They really gotta start calling the two-step-hop-step a travel. I've played a lot of pickup games and whenever someone does it, it gives them a ridiculous advantage because you think they have to go up once they take those two steps so you go for the block, but oh wait, "let me just take another two steps and avoid him because its perfectly legal," yeah right. I'm not saying they're bad players, in fact, they are great players, but the extra step Wade gets on his spin move and LeBron gets on the "crab dribble" makes them appear a little better than they really are.


Well put, regardless they are great players but the extra step permits the thinking why are you even guarding if you cannot anticipate it.


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

I don't want to sound like a hater. But.

Let's face the facts. I posted James' shot chart here. He scores very large amount of his points under the hoop, the chart clearly shows it. He has a suspect drive. I have never in my life been more insecure about the way he drives to the hoop. This is 100% true and no exaggeration, few of the Cavs game I've seen and the last year playoff ones, at least 2-3 times a quarter he does a move that makes me go...wait? Can I get a replay of that? Can I see what did he do with his pivot?

I know some of you here have already proclaimed me as a pure hater, well let me tell you that this is the very reason why I can't and probably never be a fan of his game.

How can a player with such repertoire make so many dubious moves?



That leads me to what I was trying to say. Imagine how much EDGE you gain with making that one extra step?

If any of you play basketball on regular basis, you will relate to this;

When you're defending a player, when a player you're defending goes for a drive, the rules are in the back of your mind, you don't have to exactly LOOK at his feet, you KNOW, you feel that he just took one-two-jump...

But if he, instead of a jump, goes for another step, not only it's not by the rules and it makes him play unfair, it throws YOU out of balance.

Because your body was already "prepared" to time the jump.

I hope I'm not too confusing, I'm sure some of you do understand exactly what I'm talking here.


So that makes me say, if he keeps playing like that, I think the refs will eventually go totally hard at it, because it can be right for the game.

Say what you will, but the Wizards call was a big call. And not because of the game. But because I hope it opened eyes to refs, fans and other players that he is definitely exploiting not some small in-game trick that players use, like pinching or some wiseguy stuff like that, but a basic rule of the game.


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

that's not a travel,because in the beginning there's only one hand on the ball so...you guys don't know what you're talking about:stupid:


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

kirov said:


> that's not a travel,because in the beginning there's only one hand on the ball so...you guys don't know what you're talking about:stupid:


I hope you're kidding...

Because it doesn't matter if you have the baketball in one or two hands...


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## kirov (Jun 9, 2003)

Welcome to BBF.net where sarcasm happens.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

DNKO said:


> I have never in my life been more insecure


Hmmm....


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## DNKO (Dec 23, 2008)

Your point being...?


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

DNKO said:


> Your point being...?


He's attacking the phrasing of your post rather than the content itself.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

f22egl said:


> He's attacking the phrasing of your post rather than the content itself.


That's not true.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*



PauloCatarino said:


> I just can't, for the life of me, understand how people who call themselves fans of the game of basketball can defend breaking the rules of the same game.
> 
> The NBA isn't streetball. You can't palm or carry the ball. Or travel. We have it bad enough that refs often swallow the whistle when it's a "superstar" doing it, but actually defend those kind of moves?


I'm not sure what game you've been watching, but in the NBA that I've watched they haven't called traveling on stars since the days of the merger. The immortal Moses would have taken fewer steps running a marathon than he usually did while scoring in the post. McHale was little better. But, I've noticed that Laker fans have become sudden converts to the cause of hoops purity. Odd, they never worried about traveling calls during the last threepeat when Shaq was dancing the pivot foot shuffle and Kobe was doing his best Michael Jordan "I don't need no stinkin' dribbles" imitation.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*



ehmunro said:


> I'm not sure what game you've been watching, but in the NBA that I've watched they haven't called traveling on stars since the days of the merger. The immortal Moses would have taken fewer steps running a marathon than he usually did while scoring in the post. McHale was little better. But, I've noticed that Laker fans have become sudden converts to the cause of hoops purity. Odd, they never worried about traveling calls during the last threepeat when Shaq was dancing the pivot foot shuffle and Kobe was doing his best Michael Jordan "I don't need no stinkin' dribbles" imitation.


In what way, shape or form does your post have anything to do with what i wrote? 

Did i say there hasn't been superstar non-calls thorought the years? 

What i DID say is that i don't understand people defending not calling blatant infractions of the rules of the game.

I know you are not yourself, ehmunro... You are probably not getting enough sleep. Some migraines, perhaps? Anxiety crisis regarding Celtics games? Is Dwight Howard frightening you? But wise up, grasshopper!


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

*Re: LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*



ehmunro said:


> I'm not sure what game you've been watching, but in the NBA that I've watched they haven't called traveling on stars since the days of the merger. The immortal Moses would have taken fewer steps running a marathon than he usually did while scoring in the post. McHale was little better. But, I've noticed that Laker fans have become sudden converts to the cause of hoops purity. Odd, they never worried about traveling calls during the last threepeat when Shaq was dancing the pivot foot shuffle and Kobe was doing his best Michael Jordan "I don't need no stinkin' dribbles" imitation.


Who? It's bad enough to generalize, but to make up generalizations is even worse. Maybe one or two posters? And no, AJ23 does not count.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

The 6 people who voted no should never be caught complaining about officiating. They are blinder than the refs! At least the refs have an excuse because they dont get to watch replays in slow mo. But damn, you guys have seen numerous replays and still vote no? :lol: Stop the bull****!


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

*Re: LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*



Bartholomew Hunt said:


> Who? It's bad enough to generalize, but to make up generalizations is even worse. Maybe one or two posters? And no, AJ23 does not count.


His response was to Paulo, so I'm assuming he's the only one ehmunro was referring to. Unless it was an edit...


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

*Re: LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*



PauloCatarino said:


> In what way, shape or form does your post have anything to do with what i wrote?
> 
> Did i say there hasn't been superstar non-calls thorought the years?
> 
> What i DID say is that i don't understand people defending not calling blatant infractions of the rules of the game.


Because traveling hasn't been enforced for three decades. Pretty much the only consistent calls of traveling are on big men at the elbow or the top of the key. Switch your pivot foot there and you're going to get whistled. Other than that it seems to be a call that only gets whistled when the zebras are feeling sulky.



PauloCatarino said:


> I know you are not yourself, ehmunro... You are probably not getting enough sleep. Some migraines, perhaps? Anxiety crisis regarding Celtics games? Is Dwight Howard frightening you?


Why? The Cavs are already the best team in the NBA and are probably a trade away from sealing up the next two titles at least. Like most Celtics fans I'm just happy that the rebuilding error is over.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

*Re: LeBron James Crab Dribble/Travel*



ehmunro said:


> Why? The Cavs are already the best team in the NBA and are probably a trade away from sealing up the next two titles at least. Like most Celtics fans I'm just happy that the rebuilding error is over.


My, my, how things change...
But you are failing me, young grasshopper. Are you quiting already? Where's the brash talk about the holier-than-thou Celtics? Where are the jokes about the Lakers being a bunch of pansies? 
I accept your capitulation (sp?), but i was expecting a harder fight.
For God knows how i long for a Lakers/Celtics rematch in the Finals!


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

The Lakers, outside Kobe, _are_ a bunch of gaggers. As for the Cavs, your hated LeBron is even better this year. With Mo Williams (a man reviled as a loser until this year) as a sidekick the Cavs are already arguably the best team in basketball. Once they trade Szczerbiak I no longer expect anyone to catch up with them. Of course, Danny Ferry could surprise us all by holding on to what he has and not dealing, but even I don't believe that Ferry's that bad a GM. Like most Celtics fans I'm hoping that Danny Ferry stands pat and clears the path for Boston to repeat, but I'm not holding my breath.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

^ It's weird, you only seem to respect the Celtics and for some odd reason the Cavs, completly ignoring the fact that the Magic and the Lakers have as good if not better chance to win the ship then the Celtics.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

VanillaPrice said:


> ^ It's weird, you only seem to respect the Celtics and for some odd reason the Cavs, completly ignoring the fact that the Magic and the Lakers have as good if not better chance to win the ship then the Celtics.


ehmunro lives in fear. Let's just respect that.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

^ I guess, he hides it well under all of the "Laker girl" insults though.

Back on topic, has this thread really gone to 16 pages? I mean really it was about ONE travel call, it was obivously a travel, let it go.

PS. Nice sig Paulo.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

VanillaPrice said:


> ^ It's weird, you only seem to respect the Celtics and for some odd reason the Cavs, completly ignoring the fact that the Magic and the Lakers have as good if not better chance to win the ship then the Celtics.


Magic? :thinking2: Who are teh Magics??

Lakers? Don't make me laugh! :lol: Oh wait, they do have that one chucker @ SG.. what's his face? Either way, he cant hold Lebron's jock. I got Bos or Cle as only possible contenders.


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