# Kevin Garnett



## Rick2583 (Mar 17, 2014)

There's talk that the Celtics in the near future will retire the numbers of both Pierce & Garnett. Pierce is a given but does 6 seasons & 1 title warrant Garnetts # going to the rafters? I mean its bad enough that when it comes to retired numbers we're the basketball version of the Yankees. I'd have to say no. What do you guys think?


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

No, mainly because I despise his existence.


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## Rick2583 (Mar 17, 2014)

LeGoat06 said:


> No, mainly because I despise his existence.




Don't hold back, tell me how you really feel.


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## edabomb (Feb 12, 2005)

I say no on Garnett based on the fact the franchise has >15 titles - it takes the significance out of the 2008 title historically speaking. But I certainly think it will be - he had more impact than some of the players with numbers already retired IMO.

In 2080 the Celtics will only have numbers 85-99 left haha.

Does raise an interesting question - will Ray Allen's number be retired anywhere? He spent his prime across three franchises - one of which no longer exists.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Rick2583 said:


> There's talk that the Celtics in the near future will retire the numbers of both Pierce & Garnett. Pierce is a given but does 6 seasons & 1 title warrant Garnetts # going to the rafters? I mean its bad enough that when it comes to retired numbers we're the basketball version of the Yankees. I'd have to say no. What do you guys think?


I would enjoy tremendously to see a franchise like the Celtics retire the number of a player the likes of Kevin Garnett.


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## letsgoceltics (Aug 19, 2012)

I don't know if some of the posts are for real or not. The impact KG had on the Celtics after decades of medicore basketball was literally historic. When the guy they built a statue for and won 11 championships says he'd share a ring with you, yeah you're a Celtic. Boston retiring a player with the likes of Kevin Garnett? Absolutely.


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## Rick2583 (Mar 17, 2014)

letsgoceltics said:


> I don't know if some of the posts are for real or not. The impact KG had on the Celtics after decades of medicore basketball was literally historic. When the guy they built a statue for and won 11 championships says he'd share a ring with you, yeah you're a Celtic. Boston retiring a player with the likes of Kevin Garnett? Absolutely.



We're STILL only talking about 6 seasons & ONE (1) title. Don't get me wrong he made a huge impact, I just don't think his # should go up there. And for what its worth, I loved the game of Dennis Johnson but I wouldn't have retired his # either and he had 7 seasons & 2 titles.


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## letsgoceltics (Aug 19, 2012)

But you're putting that 1 title off like its nothing. How many titles did the Celtics win the 15 seasons before that point? None. Does Paul Pierce get his jersey retired without KG? Is Doc Rivers an elite coach without KG? Does anyone that started watching basketball after the year 2000 care about the Celtics vs. Lakers? Do you ever hear the Boston Garden on their feet screaming Lets...Go...Celtics? No chance, man. KG deserves all the credit in the world for bringing that back.


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## Rick2583 (Mar 17, 2014)

letsgoceltics said:


> But you're putting that 1 title off like its nothing. How many titles did the Celtics win the 15 seasons before that point? None. Does Paul Pierce get his jersey retired without KG? Is Doc Rivers an elite coach without KG? Does anyone that started watching basketball after the year 2000 care about the Celtics vs. Lakers? Do you ever hear the Boston Garden on their feet screaming Lets...Go...Celtics? No chance, man. KG deserves all the credit in the world for bringing that back.



I hear what you're saying BUT......the Celtics didn't go 20 years without a title just because they didn't have KG. I don't know how long you've been a fan but much of there down time could be contributed to just bad things happening. Like the deaths of Lenny Bias in 1986, The death of Reggie Lewis in 1993. Dino Radja just walking away in 97. And the loss of a coin flip for the rights to Duncan.

Sorry but I just think the whole retired #s thing should be reserved to players that have either devoted most of there careers in Green or were part of teams that won multiple championships. JMO.


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## letsgoceltics (Aug 19, 2012)

KG is only a notch below Pierce in the Celtic hierarchy. The retiring jersey thing is interesting, I guess. I've been a Celtic fan since the Rick Pitino era and there were times I felt the Celtics were never going to win a championship again. Sometimes, the '08 championship feels like a dream considering KG's journey, the Celtics' drought, and who they beat.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Rick2583 said:


> We're STILL only talking about 6 seasons & ONE (1) title.












"_He can have the banner space right next to mine_!"



Rick2583 said:


> Don't get me wrong he made a huge impact, I just don't think his # should go up there.


He had a little more than a huge impact. Even though Boston was a large market, Paul "Thanks, Dad!" Gaston had run the Celtics like they were a micro-market team. This essentially kneecapped the franchise in NBA terms as a destination. That changed when Garnett arrived. And, ultimately the new owners broke him. So, yeah, he deserves the honor.


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## letsgoceltics (Aug 19, 2012)

Who would you say deserves more to have his jersey retired? KG in Boston (6 seasons, 1 title) or AI in Philly (10+ seasons, 0 titles)


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## Rick2583 (Mar 17, 2014)

E.H. Munro said:


> "_He can have the banner space right next to mine_!"
> 
> 
> 
> He had a little more than a huge impact. Even though Boston was a large market, Paul "Thanks, Dad!" Gaston had run the Celtics like they were a micro-market team. This essentially kneecapped the franchise in NBA terms as a destination. That changed when Garnett arrived. And, ultimately the new owners broke him. So, yeah, he deserves the honor.



Well then by all means lets get Allen's jersey up there also since one couldn't do it without the other & he also made a large impact.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

No, Ray Allen did not usher in the era of Boston as a real large market team.


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## Rick2583 (Mar 17, 2014)

E.H. Munro said:


> No, Ray Allen did not usher in the era of Boston as a real large market team.



No it was the combination of Allen, Pierce & Garnett (TOGETHER) that did that


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## letsgoceltics (Aug 19, 2012)

KG was the leader of the Big 3. He'd be the toughest to replace.


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## Rick2583 (Mar 17, 2014)

letsgoceltics said:


> Who would you say deserves more to have his jersey retired? KG in Boston (6 seasons, 1 title) or AI in Philly (10+ seasons, 0 titles)



That's a fair question & as someone who absolutely hated AI I'd have to say Iverson but only because he either led or was in the top 5 of most every scoring & offensive category in Philadelphia's history.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Rick2583 said:


> No it was the combination of Allen, Pierce & Garnett (TOGETHER) that did that


No, together they won a title, but it was Garnett that altered the franchise's perception.


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

letsgoceltics said:


> Who would you say deserves more to have his jersey retired? KG in Boston (6 seasons, 1 title) or AI in Philly (10+ seasons, 0 titles)


AI in philly. I still see Garnett as a T wolve


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## Rick2583 (Mar 17, 2014)

E.H. Munro said:


> No, together they won a title, but it was Garnett that altered the franchise's perception.



Whoa...wait please. Up until now this post was just a little conversation. Just a back & forth discussion about whether a man should be honored for his field of work or not. Now you've got him ALTERING an entire franchise.

Growing up I was taught & told about a MAN that became a GOD. Even taught & told that one day there will be the 2nd coming of Christ. But holy elephant balls batman, I never thought he'd come back in the form of a 7 foot man wearing Gym shorts & a jersey.

I mean really....ALTERING A FRANCHISE? In all seriousness, there's just no way I could further respond to this discussion. You've managed to do something that two ex wives couldn't do, you've totally & completely shut my ass the hell up.


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

I Like this Rick guy. Finally a new poster that sticks around and makes a good discussion


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Pierce and Ray Allen plus the leftovers of the 06-07 Celtics would have been a 45 win team at best. Garnett singled-handedly turned the team into a defensive juggernaut and a title contender. One title today means more than two or three did in the 60s. If Ainge had bothered to get a rebounder in 2010, we'd have two titles in the Garnett era and this wouldn't even be a discussion.

I mean if guys like Don Nelson and Ed Macauley have their numbers retired then Garnett absolutely deserves it.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Rick2583 said:


> Whoa...wait please. Up until now this post was just a little conversation. Just a back & forth discussion about whether a man should be honored for his field of work or not. Now you've got him ALTERING an entire franchise.
> 
> Growing up I was taught & told about a MAN that became a GOD. Even taught & told that one day there will be the 2nd coming of Christ. But holy elephant balls batman, I never thought he'd come back in the form of a 7 foot man wearing Gym shorts & a jersey.
> 
> I mean really....ALTERING A FRANCHISE? In all seriousness, there's just no way I could further respond to this discussion. You've managed to do something that two ex wives couldn't do, you've totally & completely shut my ass the hell up.


Eh, getting Garnett did change the way people looked at the C's and drastically altered their expectations heading into 2008. People forget he had an outside chance at winning MVP _and_ DPOY that year. It's not really in the same ballpark as, say, Boston getting Allen or the Lakers getting Pau.


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## Rick2583 (Mar 17, 2014)

Floods said:


> Pierce and Ray Allen plus the leftovers of the 06-07 Celtics would have been a 45 win team at best. Garnett singled-handedly turned the team into a defensive juggernaut and a title contender. One title today means more than two or three did in the 60s. If Ainge had bothered to get a rebounder in 2010, we'd have two titles in the Garnett era and this wouldn't even be a discussion.
> 
> I mean if guys like Don Nelson and Ed Macauley have their numbers retired then Garnett absolutely deserves it.



"Just when I think I'm out....they pull me back in"....Single handedly? Did you & Munro rehearse this over the top exaggerated skit. I mean c'mon.


Some of these posts of late are now becoming boarder line comical. I really mean no disrespect to you guys but when I hear terms like ALTERED A FRANCHISE & SINGLE HANDEDLY, I can't help but laugh. I mean are we talking about a human being here or God-damned superman?

Even the great Bill Russell in every interview I've seen where he's asked about being the winningest player in sports history says time after time "I didn't win these by myself". Listen maybe you guys are thinking that I'm anti-Garnett, I'm not. I may not be a fan of his court antics like most but DAMN! you have to love this guys passion for the game. And I agree that without him the Celtics don't win a championship in 08. But the also don't win it without Pierce. Or without Allen. C'mon guys, this is not a 5 on 1 sport.

Now, I also agree about McCauley, retiring his # was a joke & I have no idea what the Celtics were thinking. Nelson is also questionable but more deserving then McCauley with 11 years & part of 5 titles.

Garnett will probably have his jersey hanging from the rafters & if I was in the garden when it was being done I'd be on my feet cheering with everyone else. I just think teams like the Yankees & Celtics (my two favorite teams) go a little over board in giving these honors.

Bottom line is, opinions are like assholes....everybody has one. right or wrong, agree or disagree we've just shared ours. No harm no foul.


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## letsgoceltics (Aug 19, 2012)

There was a method to his antics. He had an approach where it was his team vs. the World. He did the same things with the Wolves.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Rick2583 said:


> "Just when I think I'm out....they pull me back in"....Single handedly? Did you & Munro rehearse this over the top exaggerated skit. I mean c'mon.
> 
> 
> Some of these posts of late are now becoming boarder line comical. I really mean no disrespect to you guys but when I hear terms like ALTERED A FRANCHISE & SINGLE HANDEDLY, I can't help but laugh. I mean are we talking about a human being here or God-damned superman?
> ...


Garnett doesn't win a ring here without Pierce and Allen, but those two also don't win rings without Garnett and don't make the Celtics relevant again without him. Acquiring Garnett was the key to that turn around.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Rick2583 said:


> Whoa...wait please. Up until now this post was just a little conversation. Just a back & forth discussion about whether a man should be honored for his field of work or not. Now you've got him ALTERING an entire franchise.


Because he did. Free agency (in any meaningful sense of the word) only arrived in the NBA when the Celtics were being run by the Donald Sterling of the NBA East. So for some 15 years, despite being in one of the largest markets in the country (the eastern Mass. megalopolis is huge), the Celtics were run like a small market team. The perception of the team around the league was of a franchise that was more focused on profits than winning. 

Even when Jim O'Brien finally got the team back to winning the _very first thing_ that Paul "Thanks, Dad!" Gaston did was order Boston to get under the luxury tax line, and so rather than building on what they had they leveled the team. 

Even the new owners contributed to that ongoing perception, because their first action upon getting the team was to put through a huge price increase, ostensibly to help put the team over the top. Their second action was to give players away to get under the luxury tax line. 

So from 1990-2007 NBA players looked at the Celtics as a small market team that didn't give a shit about winning a title. That changed when Garnett came here. Now the Celtics are viewed by players around the NBA as a large market team that wants to win titles, regardless of any short-term issues. Garnett erased 15 years of Clipperesque futility overnight, played some MVP level ball here (until the owners broke him), delivered them a title and carried them to the finals two years later. His number's getting retired so you may as well get used to it.


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## Rick2583 (Mar 17, 2014)

E.H. Munro said:


> Because he did. Free agency (in any meaningful sense of the word) only arrived in the NBA when the Celtics were being run by the Donald Sterling of the NBA East. So for some 15 years, despite being in one of the largest markets in the country (the eastern Mass. megalopolis is huge), the Celtics were run like a small market team. The perception of the team around the league was of a franchise that was more focused on profits than winning.
> 
> Even when Jim O'Brien finally got the team back to winning the _very first thing_ that Paul "Thanks, Dad!" Gaston did was order Boston to get under the luxury tax line, and so rather than building on what they had they leveled the team.
> 
> ...



To avoid being called Mr. redundant I'm not even going to respond to 95% of your post AGAIN!. But I will respond to the last sentence where you tell me to GET USE TO IT. Without questioning your comprehension skills you may want to re-read the 2nd to last paragraph in post #24. 

GET USE TO IT?..........Get use to what?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Get used to disappointment because despite your complaints they're going to retire the number of the guy that erased a decade and a half of futility and returned Boston to its traditional place of NBA flagship franchise. Again, you may think that's a little thing. It ain't.


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## Rick2583 (Mar 17, 2014)

E.H. Munro said:


> Get used to disappointment because despite your complaints they're going to retire the number of the guy that erased a decade and a half of futility and returned Boston to its traditional place of NBA flagship franchise. Again, you may think that's a little thing. It ain't.



Okay this has now officially reached the status of....SAD! Apparently you did not re-read the paragraph in post #24 as I suggested. And I find it a bit confusing how you can mistake sharing an OPINION with COMPLAINING. And I've given no indication that I would be DISAPPOINTED if the mans # was retired. You're reading a lot more into my OPINION then you have to which is obviously leading to your delusions of reading things that aren't there.

This obviously means a lot to you but seriously, Although it is my OPINION (not complaining) that his # shouldn't be retired, my world will not fall apart if it is. And I WILL NOT be DISAPPOINTED.............I promise.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Rick2583 said:


> "Just when I think I'm out....they pull me back in"....Single handedly? Did you & Munro rehearse this over the top exaggerated skit. I mean c'mon.
> 
> Some of these posts of late are now becoming boarder line comical. I really mean no disrespect to you guys but when I hear terms like ALTERED A FRANCHISE & SINGLE HANDEDLY, I can't help but laugh. I mean are we talking about a human being here or God-damned superman?


We're talking about a human being that single-handedly transformed a franchise into an elite title contender after spending most of the previous two decades taking a dive.



> Even the great Bill Russell in every interview I've seen where he's asked about being the winningest player in sports history says time after time "I didn't win these by myself". Listen maybe you guys are thinking that I'm anti-Garnett, I'm not. I may not be a fan of his court antics like most but DAMN! you have to love this guys passion for the game. And I agree that without him the Celtics don't win a championship in 08. But the also don't win it without Pierce. Or without Allen. C'mon guys, this is not a 5 on 1 sport.


I don't care what Bill Russell thinks. 



> Now, I also agree about McCauley, retiring his # was a joke & I have no idea what the Celtics were thinking. Nelson is also questionable but more deserving then McCauley with 11 years & part of 5 titles.


Garnett will probably have his jersey hanging from the rafters & if I was in the garden when it was being done I'd be on my feet cheering with everyone else. I just think teams like the Yankees & Celtics (my two favorite teams) go a little over board in giving these honors.[/quote]
At least a third of the numbers in the rafters are a joke. K.C. Jones and Satch Sanders were defensive specialists. Instrumental to success? Absolutely. Worthy of having their numbers retired? No. Frank Ramsey wasn't special. Neither was Loscutoff. Maxwell was a nice glue guy but not a guy you retire a number for. These numbers are all retired because Red and the Celtics were loyal to a fault, and because none of them had sour exits that I know of.

The only players in Celtics history that are better/more important than Garnett are Cousy, Havlicek, Russell, Bird, McHale, Parish, and Pierce (just because of his longevity). Cowens and Sam Jones are debatable. If those other guys have their numbers retired, he definitely should have 5 retired.


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## Rick2583 (Mar 17, 2014)

Floods said:


> We're talking about a human being that single-handedly transformed a franchise into an elite title contender after spending most of the previous two decades taking a dive.
> 
> 
> I don't care what Bill Russell thinks.
> ...


At least a third of the numbers in the rafters are a joke. K.C. Jones and Satch Sanders were defensive specialists. Instrumental to success? Absolutely. Worthy of having their numbers retired? No. Frank Ramsey wasn't special. Neither was Loscutoff. Maxwell was a nice glue guy but not a guy you retire a number for. These numbers are all retired because Red and the Celtics were loyal to a fault, and because none of them had sour exits that I know of.

The only players in Celtics history that are better/more important than Garnett are Cousy, Havlicek, Russell, Bird, McHale, Parish, and Pierce (just because of his longevity). Cowens and Sam Jones are debatable. If those other guys have their numbers retired, he definitely should have 5 retired.[/QUOTE]







First P L E A S E enough already with the SINGLE HANDEDLY bullshit. No one individual in ANY team sport can SINGLE HANDEDLY do squat. So seriously that by itself just sounds ridiculous. As I mentioned, even Bill Russell, OOPS! I forgot...."YOU DON"T CARE WHAT BILL RUSSELL SAYS".Injecting humor into a conversation is okay I guess.

Look if you're making comparisons then I agree with you. If McCauley, KC, Satch, Ramsey & a few others are up there then so should Garnett. Yes again I agree. But what some of you fail or perhaps just CAN'T understand is that I'm not making comparisons. Hell if it were up to me at least a quarter of the numbers would come down. 

Its an OPINION. I mean holy shit why is that such a difficult thing to follow. Its almost as if you just can't grasp the concept of another human being disagreeing you. Well shit happens, get over it.

I'm new to this site & I certainly don't want to offend anyone or get off on the wrong foot but I started this thread just to share OPINIONS. however some of you elected instead to turn this into a pissing contest like children arguing over a game in the school yard.

Now I could very easily end this by saying. Okay, you guys are right, My bad, Garnett no doubt definitely belongs up there, what was I thinking. But that would be condescending & I wouldn't insult you guys like that. 

Have a great day all.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Rick2583 said:


> First P L E A S E enough already with the SINGLE HANDEDLY bullshit. No one individual in ANY team sport can SINGLE HANDEDLY do squat. So seriously that by itself just sounds ridiculous. As I mentioned, even Bill Russell, OOPS! I forgot...."YOU DON"T CARE WHAT BILL RUSSELL SAYS".Injecting humor into a conversation is okay I guess.


Michael Jordan SINGLE HANDEDLY won those six titles in the 90s. LeBron James is SINGLE HANDEDLY winning titles in Miami right now. Shaq SINGLE HANDEDLY returned the Lakers to elite status and won them a three-peat. Garnett SINGLE HANDEDLY turned around a Celtics franchise had been trash for well over a decade and brought them right back to title contention. 

If Garnett didn't do it, who did? Allen by himself doesn't catapult a team from the basement to the championship, that's for sure. Rondo and Perkins didn't do it. Pierce was here before Garnett. So who?

Why would I care about what Bill Russell says? It's the politically correct thing to do to talk up your teammates and say "yep, best ever!" when asked about them.



> Look if you're making comparisons then I agree with you. If McCauley, KC, Satch, Ramsey & a few others are up there then so should Garnett. Yes again I agree. But what some of you fail or perhaps just CAN'T understand is that I'm not making comparisons. Hell if it were up to me at least a quarter of the numbers would come down.


Well, you are right about me not being able to understand you.



> Its an OPINION. I mean holy shit why is that such a difficult thing to follow. Its almost as if you just can't grasp the concept of another human being disagreeing you. Well shit happens, get over it.
> 
> I'm new to this site & I certainly don't want to offend anyone or get off on the wrong foot but I started this thread just to share OPINIONS. however some of you elected instead to turn this into a pissing contest like children arguing over a game in the school yard.


What? Where's the pissing contest?

Posting an opinion to a forum = opening it up for discussion and criticism.


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## Rick2583 (Mar 17, 2014)

Floods said:


> Michael Jordan SINGLE HANDEDLY won those six titles in the 90s. LeBron James is SINGLE HANDEDLY winning titles in Miami right now. Shaq SINGLE HANDEDLY returned the Lakers to elite status and won them a three-peat. Garnett SINGLE HANDEDLY turned around a Celtics franchise had been trash for well over a decade and brought them right back to title contention.
> 
> If Garnett didn't do it, who did? Allen by himself doesn't catapult a team from the basement to the championship, that's for sure. Rondo and Perkins didn't do it. Pierce was here before Garnett. So who?
> 
> ...



Flood I'm glad you responded (though your arguments leave a lot to be desired). On this response let me just say this & if you STILL can't follow it then I'm sorry. An individual can SINGLE HANDEDLY take over "A" game. Especially in the closing minutes. That's what guys like you mentioned do, James, Durant etc. But no one player unless you're involved in an INDIVIDUAL sport (Tennis, Golf etc) can single handedly take over a sport.

As far as you not understanding me, that's quite plain to see judging by your responses. That's also not my problem.

You did hit on something in your earlier post which I found interesting. About which #s IYO should be retired & which ones shouldn't. We agree on most. I don't know how old you are or how far you go back with the team but I saw Heinsohn play, I saw Sharman play & the Jones boys. So I just want to add this. Heinsohn, Sharman & Sam Jones DEFINITELY belong up there, you'll have to trust me on that. With the exception of Russell Cowens was the best rebounding center the Celtics ever had. also a very good scorer & he had the intensity & passion for the game just below KGs. again, you'll have to trust me. Satch & KC I'm on the fence with, the defense was there but neither of them could throw a rock in the ocean. Especially KC. And as much as I love my Celtics I'll NEVER understand how these two ever got into the HOF with there resumes.

You mentioned the obvious ones (full agreement) & I think we can agree on the ones that shouldn't be up there. White, Loscutoff, Nelson, MacCauley, Lewis & Johnson. though I think in the case of Lewis & Johnson it was more of a case of, "Thank yous" due there untimely deaths.

Flood, its been great shootin the shit with you. I always love a good debate.


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