# Calderon should start (Now)



## BaLL_HoG (Jun 17, 2006)

I know as a fan you dont want to admit that the PG we traded for and just extended for 3 years at 8 million has been underwhelmingly bad, but he has. He makes numerous bone headed decision after bone headed decision. He cant make a jump shot, has trouble finishing around the basket and to top it off is a turnover machine.

He's also suppose to be this pass first PG, but he's jacking up around the same amount of shots Mike James did for last year and people called MJ a chucker. Bottom line is that Jose has run this team better thru 6 games, hit his jumpers and got everyone involved at the right times and picked his spots wisely. I didnt even have to look at stats to formulate my opinion that Calderon has been better then Ford so far, but the statistics also show it.

TJ Ford 
PPG 14.5 
RPG 3.7 
APG 8.0 
SPG .67 
FG% .430 
FT% .696 
3P% .333 
MPG 32.0 
TOPG 4.17 
PER 14.45 

Jose Calderon 
PPG 8.2 
RPG 1.8 
APG 3.5 
SPG 1.00 
FG% .576 
FT% .900 
3P% .333 
MPG 16.3 
TOPG 1.33 
PER 22.37 

I know starting Jose infront of Ford would make BC and the Villa trade look real bad, but at some point you need to make the move thats for the betterment of the overall team.


----------



## firstrounder (Oct 31, 2004)

100% agree.

There is no question. Don't even need to look at the stats.

How anyone in their right mind could think TJ is better than Calderon after watching the first 5 games is beyond me.

TJ has been garbage. I would rather have the $8 million capspace then have TJ.


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

BaLL_HoG said:


> I know as a fan you dont want to admit that the PG we traded for and just extended for 3 years at 8 million has been underwhelmingly bad, but he has. He makes numerous bone headed decision after bone headed decision. He cant make a jump shot, has trouble finishing around the basket and to top it off is a turnover machine.
> 
> He's also suppose to be this pass first PG, but he's jacking up around the same amount of shots Mike James did for last year and people called MJ a chucker. Bottom line is that Jose has run this team better thru 6 games, hit his jumpers and got everyone involved at the right times and picked his spots wisely. I didnt even have to look at stats to formulate my opinion that Calderon has been better then Ford so far, but the statistics also show it.
> 
> ...


Six games in is WAY TOO EARLY too pull of such a move. Let's give Jose a few more minutes.

Making decisions on small sample size is not smart. I think around the 20 game mark is when you have to make the call. And I am not discounting the validity of making a change at that point.


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

*looks at sig ...


----------



## BaLL_HoG (Jun 17, 2006)

JuniorNoboa said:


> Six games in is WAY TOO EARLY too pull of such a move. Let's give Jose a few more minutes.
> 
> Making decisions on small sample size is not smart. I think around the 20 game mark is when you have to make the call. And I am not discounting the validity of making a change at that point.


so your admitting that if this trend continues into the 20 game mark, you support the change?


----------



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Until our starters consistently start keeping up with Ford I'm not going to hang much on him. There's usually only one or two players on the floor that want to run on every possession and he's virtually always one of them.


----------



## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

look, i don't want to be tj ford's defense lawyer because he's guilty. other than _points for: points against_, stats don't hold much value to me. it was a pretty disgusting display last night, and yes, tj had the ball most of the time so you could easily saddle him with the primary blame.

but before we do, here's one thing: we have great spectators on the floor when he has the ball. great spectators. they're in a transe out there: parker, peterson, jones, bosh, garbajosa... most of the team, to be honest. fantastic spectators. "what is he going to do?" "where's he going?" "this'll be interesting." i don't want to oversimplify it but i'll attribute that effect to two things: 

1) the team's never played with tj ford before, tj ford has never played with the team before, they're waiting to ride the same lines of communication, they're waiting to develop an intuitive sense of what's going on and what's going to happen. i wouldn't 'wait' for it myself but that's immaterial- they're still waiting. and it'll take some time if they do. it's a boring explanation, i know, but that doesn't mean it's not valid. we're in the midst of a leadership void, i think, until we get on the same page. 

2) our players don't cut--- to the ball, away from the ball, whatever. these players are, on the whole, a stationary bunch. tj is not- i've never seen him play that way, so when they're standing around twiddling their thumbs, tj will always look out of control in comparison since he'll be the only one ostensibly looking to do very much at all. that is not to say that he's correct and they're wrong, only that it'll take some time- but at the nba level, i'd rather have his habits of movement and attention than not have them. or put differently, there will be a meeting point somewhere in between- i just hope it's closer to tj's extreme than their own. i mean, if we're going to use tj ford's best attributes to their full potential, we'll have to move. the one thing that his style gives you is an offense whose look can change/metamorphosize three or four times on every possession. the five offensive players have to be comfortable with that. what's more, they have to _encourage_ the change (imo)- it has to appear like organized chaos. if they continue to stand idly and wait for tj to do something, it'll just look like straight ahead chaos- being caused by only one person (tj ford). in that case, i'd always choose calderon ahead of him since tj ford's style does not work as well- or at all- when he's the only one behind it. 

my point is that this will take some time. but i would concede that it's not an inevitable success either: if the players don't embrace this point guard in the future, it'll never work. start jose calderon in that instance. but if the players do indeed embrace tj ford and his fireworks, i think we'll forget about this thread quite easily. the problem falls equally on everyone's shoulders in the meantime, imo, even though ford's the one who appears to be deserving of the most blame right now.

i will say this, though: it's been a lot uglier than i had anticipated. there's more blame to be swallowed by everyone in that locker room than i initially thought there would be. there is no excuse for that, either; the only possible one would be that they're simply not good enough. are they willing to use that excuse (be it tj, peterson, parker, bosh, garbajosa, calderon, mitchell...)? i didn't think they would be. it's time to get this train on the tracks, stand in front of the mirror, whatever cliche you want to use.

peace


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

BaLL_HoG said:


> so your admitting that if this trend continues into the 20 game mark, you support the change?


a) Will Jose shoot 58% for the next 20 games.
b) Will the rest of the team not be able to adapt to TJ's somewhat more "hectic" style. Just because it is hectic does not mean it will always be ineffective. Let's see how TJ and the rest of the team come together. Let's remember this is a bunch of new faces, that have played "6" games together. MOST IMPORTANTLY, WILL THIS TEAM EVER RUN WITH HIM TO THE BASKET, CUTTING TO THE BASKET, CUTTING INTO THE LANE, OR ARE THEY JUST GOING TO RUN TO A SPOT FOR A JUMPER.


There is no "trend" that has yet to develop IMO.


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

ballocks said:


> look, i don't want to be tj ford's defense lawyer because he's guilty. other than _points for: points against_, stats don't hold much value to me. it was a pretty disgusting display last night, and yes, tj had the ball most of the time so you could easily saddle him with the primary blame.
> 
> but before we do, here's one thing: we have great spectators on the floor when he has the ball. great spectators. they're in a transe out there: parker, peterson, jones, bosh, garbajosa... most of the team, to be honest. fantastic spectators. "what is he going to do?" "where's he going?" "this'll be interesting." i don't want to oversimplify it but i'll attribute that effect to two things:
> 
> ...


I just wasted two minutes of my life writing that other post. 

I could have easily just put "ditto" to what Ballocks wrote. Excellent post


----------



## firstrounder (Oct 31, 2004)

Question: while I agree with this thread, why was it started? I started the exact same thread 3 days ago. Its still on the front page.


----------



## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

Ballocks nailed it on the head.

Our whole team camps out at the perimeter except for Bosh, especially when we go with a smaller lineup.
I like TJ's style of play though I do wish he would slow it down a little bit as he seems to be forcing things. I've always believed that the team needs to adapt around the point guard and not the other way around, unfortunately, this hasn't been the case.


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I don't think anyone is trying to saddle TJ with the label of being the 'problem' with the Raps. But he sure has not shown himself to be part of the solution.

He may be super fast but if he can't harness that speed effectively and use it to really create easy scoring opportunities for others then what is the point. He needs a lot of seasoning.

He may have a better toolkit of PG skills than a Mike James, but MJ is twice the basketball player that TJ is. Think about how many more weapons TJ has to work with this year than MJ did. And how MJ kept a horrible team in a lot of games, even without CB4 to end the year.

The worst move Sam and Babs made was cutting that little PG in summer league after he had a great end of the season run with the Raps. Didnt' even give him a camp invite. Stupid, stupid move. Guy played solid D and passed the ball like we wanted.


----------



## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

lucky777s said:


> He may have a better toolkit of PG skills than a Mike James, but MJ is twice the basketball player that TJ is. Think about how many more weapons TJ has to work with this year than MJ did. And how MJ kept a horrible team in a lot of games, even without CB4 to end the year.


Look at the age difference. This team is building for the future. It wasn't like we were expected to make that much noise in the playoff race anyways.
T.J. is part of the solution in making the overall nucleus and team better over the next two years in order to become a solid contender.



lucky777s said:


> The worst move Sam and Babs made was cutting that little PG in summer league after he had a great end of the season run with the Raps. Didnt' even give him a camp invite. Stupid, stupid move. Guy played solid D and passed the ball like we wanted.


He's been nothing this year with his new team, hardly the loss you make it seem to be. It's easy to make yourself look good during garbage minutes (anyone remember Cook?).


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

How are we building for the future with Rasho, Parker, Jones, Garbajosa being in our top 7 rotation. We need to replace these guys soon just to be as bad as we are today. How do we become a contender? Joey Graham is not being developed. Bargs is not being developed by Sam so far. And TJ needs to show a lot of improvement to be a Nash/Kidd type of leader.

Bargs is our only young asset with big potential. With him, Bosh, and TJ sucking up 33+ mill per year of our cap soon it will be tough to build around that. 

Hump has been a pleasant surprise and was never expected to be a player here. He's just a decent energy guy off the bench.

Omar Cook is exactly the guy I was talking about. He deserved a shot to be our PG last year. MJ could play a lot at the SG, as he did with Calderon at times.

Villy could have got us more value in a trade for a SF or a top lotto pick.


----------



## cv3bandwagon (Mar 16, 2006)

lucky777s said:


> How are we building for the future with Rasho, Parker, Jones, Garbajosa being in our top 7 rotation. We need to replace these guys soon just to be as bad as we are today. How do we become a contender? Joey Graham is not being developed. Bargs is not being developed by Sam so far. And TJ needs to show a lot of improvement to be a Nash/Kidd type of leader.
> 
> Bargs is our only young asset with big potential. With him, Bosh, and TJ sucking up 33+ mill per year of our cap soon it will be tough to build around that.
> 
> Villy could have got us more value in a trade for a SF or a top lotto pick.


Rasho, Parker, Jones, Garajose are meerely stop-gap solutions. They are there to not only rub a little bit of savvy vetrans stuff on the young guys but help us take the pressure of our younger guys, so we can develop them at their own rate.

Look at our cap situation this way. In three years all of our contracts will expire expect Bargnani's last year of his rookie contract at around 6.5 million, at which point that will be a steal for his production. So then we have Bosh at 25, Ford at 26, and Bargnani at 24, entering their primes and a full slate of cap-room to surround them witht he nessecary role players. With around 30 mill comiited to the three of them, we'll have 20 to spend on free agents. This is when our window opens.

The wing position is the easiest position to fill in the NBA. Ford's natural ability to pentrate and kick at will, eventually will blend in perfectly in the long-run with Big's who like to shoot the rock in Bargnani and Bosh. I honeslty think he's a near perfect fit for this team. He's only 23 remember and only in the leauge for a season and a half prior to this and playing on a new team full of players that aren't used to being fed the ball. This team hasn't adjusted to TJ as much as TJ hasn't adjusted to him. They need to learn that unlike under the Mike James era, if they work hard off the ball they'll get the ball and should really anticipate getting it at any particular time because I'm seeing a lot of guys just bobbling unexpected passes rather then TJ just turning it over.


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I might agree with the cap room argument except that we had huge cap room THIS summer and didn't get even one impact player out of it.

The spurs wanted out of Rasho's deal and took expiring contracts. TJ cost us our most tradable asset in CV and looks like a bad move so far. Obviously that could change, and it had better change if the Raps ever have a hope of contending.

And the Raps will need to add 6 very good players in order to be a contender around Bosh and Bargnani. Not easy in any offseason and then we have new chemistry issues to deal with.


----------



## RP (Jun 21, 2002)

lucky777s said:


> He may have a better toolkit of PG skills than a Mike James, but MJ is twice the basketball player that TJ is. Think about how many more weapons TJ has to work with this year than MJ did. And how MJ kept a horrible team in a lot of games, even without CB4 to end the year.


Well... you are comparing the TJ (with 6 games into the season) vs Mike James (at the end of the season)...

Last year, we started 1-15 with a new PG (MJ)
This year, we started 2-4 with a new PG (TJ)

Does that mean TJ is already twice the 'WINNER' as MJ?

It's only 6 games into the season, it will take time for the team to gel and play together, especially when majority of the team are new comers.


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

lucky7's your making me depressed. 

stop it.


----------



## BaLL_HoG (Jun 17, 2006)

RP said:


> Well... you are comparing the TJ (with 6 games into the season) vs Mike James (at the end of the season)...
> 
> Last year, we started 1-15 with a new PG (MJ)
> This year, we started 2-4 with a new PG (TJ)
> ...


That logic fails due to this team much more deep and actually having a competent center, so trying to say TJ is a better winnner then MJ is wrong.

People can make all the excuses up they want for TJ's shaky play and such, but there have been numerous times where he turns the ball over like no other guards ive ever seen and it has been fully his own fault. He doesnt know when to seddle down with the ball and consistantly runs into coverage full bore with no where to pass the ball. He also has a terrible tendicy of trying to run up the court and go 1 on 5 instead of pulling the ball out. His turnovers for the most part have been his fault, and really the only thing that could be argued is that with time he will find the players in the right spots and his assists will increase.

But to argue that he's the only one running and no one else is, is flat out ridiculous. Have you ever heard of a thing called Basketball IQ? Tj should be smart enought that even if he makes it down the court way before anyone else, he should know to pull the ball back and set up.....but instead he pulls his Allen Iverson rendition and thinks he can take on the whole other team


----------



## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

Give TJ at least 10 games to prove his worth, then if hes the same, put in calderon.


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

BaLL_HoG said:


> But to argue that he's the only one running and no one else is, is flat out ridiculous. Have you ever heard of a thing called Basketball IQ?


Never heard of a basketball IQ. 

Does Basketball IQ for non PG's, mean they should be running and cutting to open spots closer to the basket, other then then hold up for a 3. ' Let me know, because I am not a very smart guy.

Let's give it 20-25 games then we can assess...


----------



## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i would choose to not think about our cap situation today and the way it might hamstring us in the future. we made our decisions this summer and we now have to live with them. that's true. and if we're not good enough like this, we took our chance. you can't compete in this league without making use of your money, you can't compete by simply talking forever about the capspace you enjoy. you need to use it at some point... and we used it. we might still not be good enough but who knows (and who really cares)- that's the risk you have to take in this game.

i'd rather focus on making it work now. some people might be intimidated by our limited set of alternatives today but so what. this is the world we built for ourselves and let's find a way to realize the potential we had in mind when we did. i'm not concerned so much as i'm frustrated- we clearly have a collection of individual talent that is far outweighing- FAR, FAR outweighing- our team's performance at the moment. that's not the end of the world, it's just monumentally frustrating. we'll turn it around soon enough, i'm sure; and i wouldn't be surprised to see tj ford at the helm throughout.

peace


----------



## BaLL_HoG (Jun 17, 2006)

JuniorNoboa said:


> Never heard of a basketball IQ.
> 
> Does Basketball IQ for non PG's, mean they should be running and cutting to open spots closer to the basket, other then then hold up for a 3. ' Let me know, because I am not a very smart guy.
> 
> Let's give it 20-25 games then we can assess...


When the coach promotes getting a 100 shots a game, its only natural that players are going to start chucking from the perimeter.

Even if the other plays cant keep up with TJ running up the court, does that mean its alright for him to say screw them, ill go 1 on 5 and try to score?


----------



## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

No.


----------



## spinz (Aug 19, 2005)

imo if calderon was on any other team, he would be making some headlines around the nba, but that's not the issue here, i've had the chance to watch all 6 of the raptor games and have to say that i see Ford being past first pg, however he's a couple steps/playmaking ahead of the team...

i would think that with pre-season/practice/regular season that there would be some sort of chemistry, however it's not quite there yet, but you could see some real good signs of hope and it wouldn't be long until they start clicking...tj will be a force once he fine tunes his jumper, he is very comparable to tony parker (tony didn't have a jumper a few years ago), he was all speed but couldn't shoot, but now he's really exploiting other teams by ability to break the 'd' down or shoot...

so now on to calderon, he is a huge spark of the bench, not only through emotions, but also on running the floor and on defence...he seems to be all over the floor when he's running...also as with any good pg, he can manufactor a basket when one is really needed (ie. to break the other teams run)...

just like how mitchel shook the lineup today to swap mo pete and fred jones into the starting lineup, it might not be a bad idea to try calderon in the starting lineup and bring tj off the bench...both pg's will be valuable to the raps, but just need more time to gell with the team...

nothing to really worry about 6 games into the season...


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

BaLL_HoG said:


> When the coach promotes getting a 100 shots a game, its only natural that players are going to start chucking from the perimeter.
> 
> Even if the other plays cant keep up with TJ running up the court, does that mean its alright for him to say screw them, ill go 1 on 5 and try to score?


No he should not go 1 on 5, and yes he does it unsuccessfully on occassion.

But the problem on the fast break is more then TJ... when it's not 1 on 5 others are taking the easy way out and going for jumpers, rather then cutting to the basket.


----------



## chocolove (Apr 4, 2006)

Although TJ has played pretty poorly so far I think we're all more disappointed than we should be because we had really really high expectations for him. He's 23, if we drafted a PG that was putting up TJ numbers minus a few TOs we'd be pretty happy(I think, I would be). So we should give it a dozen more games and also like a couple posters have already said, TJ and the rest of the guys havent really meshed that well yet, There were a couple passes made by TJ that guys just werent ready for


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Hey we could have this is a back up PG:

20 MPG
7.4 PPG
.349 FG%
.063 3P% (Awesome)
2.2 APG
0.0 SPG
2.6 Turnovers per Game

Plus bad d.

Guess who?


----------



## firstrounder (Oct 31, 2004)

Without doing any research...Rafer?


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Marcus Williams... I know he's just a rookie, but Calderon has put this guy to shame.


----------



## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

JuniorNoboa said:


> Hey we could have this is a back up PG:
> 
> 20 MPG
> 7.4 PPG
> ...


More turnovers then assists.....that is bad on a team that has Vince, RJ and Nenad to give the ball to.


----------



## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Yes, and Marcus Williams will be okay before long. Maybe next month, maybe after the Allstar game, maybe next year, but he will be a good player.

TJ is struggling. He is playing badly, and sometimes very badly. But he is working very hard, and he is clearly talented, so I wouldn't pack it in any time soon. 

Put me in the JuniorNoboa / ballocks camp. He is playing at a different speed than everyone else, and the mandate is for everyone else to speed up, not for TJ to slow down. The Raps are doing a TERRIBLE job making themselves available for the drive and dish. They all want a kick-out. It will take time for them to gel.

And I get the sense TJ is trying a little TOO hard to make things happen, not letting the game come to him. Which is understandable, and really, something one can appreciate, as long as it corrects in the next couple of weeks...


----------



## shapeshifter (Jun 13, 2005)

I don't know what anybody else thinks... but what about Parker running the point? It would be interesting to see.


----------



## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

speaking of Jose...HOLY CRAP HE CAN ACTUALLY MAKE SHOTS NOW.


----------



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I love the way Jose is playing but if he's thriving in this role, let him.

Putting him in the SL and putting TJ on the bench could just as easily hurt both of them as it could help "fix" our problems.

Plus patience with TJ is key. He'll come around.


----------



## firstrounder (Oct 31, 2004)

I really hope you are right. 

Because TJ is really starting to piss me off.


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

firstrounder said:


> I really hope you are right.
> 
> Because TJ is really starting to piss me off.


 



*looks at sig...



:angel:


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Calderon is awesome. I love his passion and intensity on the court. He's definitely reminsicent of Steve Nash now that he's refined his shot (in one year!).

Our point guard rotation is SO much better than it ever has been as is a big reason I'm still optimistic about our team (for this season and the future).


----------



## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

> He's definitely reminsicent of Steve Nash now that he's refined his shot (in one year!).


I disagree, I see that he's improved but getting him in a sentance next to Steve Nash is still silly.

I agree that our PG sitchy is pretty good. Pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty good.


----------



## firstrounder (Oct 31, 2004)

It would be better if Calderon was getting 32 minutes and TJ getting 16 instead of the other way around


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I like the idea of keeping Calderon fresh. I think that is one reason he can play so hard each night and bring the energy.

But the minutes should be more balanced at close to 24 each. Then you can really judge the team's +/- over the course of 10-20 games with each guard on court.


----------



## firstrounder (Oct 31, 2004)

Agreed.

I guess what I really want to see is the starting position not just handed to TJ.

I think it should be 24/24 and then whoever plays better over the next 15-20 games earns it.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I think everyone should just relax a bit and watch and see what happens. Afterall Colangelo is quite a decent GM. I'm sure BC has already figured out what the Raptors need and will look to improve the team as this season unfolds. The Raps is already looking a lot better than last year, give the man a chance and stop crying over his transaction moves. How can you reach a conclusion on the CV trade when both players haven't fully adopt to their new teams? Last time I checked CV isn't exactly lighting it up in Milwaukee either.


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

This thread is not about CV. It's about TJ's performance relative to Calderon or other alternatives we may have had this summer. Charlie still needed to be traded as he was a pure PF, but he could have brought us a top pick or a proven SF.

Can anyone say our record wouldn't be equal or better with MJ or Omar Cook running the show with Calderon? Or with Marcus Williams as a backup?

And what makes Colangelo such a genius? If Dallas had just matched the offer for Steve Nash where would PHX be? Bryan couldn't even convince Joe Johnson to stay with the team for max money. His big solutions at C for PHX have been Steven Hunter and Kurt Thomas. He got extremely lucky with Diaw fitting in so well and showing skills nobody saw in Atlanta.

Bryan had all the cap room in the world this summer and didn't deliver one impact player with it.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> This thread is not about CV. It's about TJ's performance relative to Calderon or other alternatives we may have had this summer. Charlie still needed to be traded as he was a pure PF, but he could have brought us a top pick or a proven SF.
> 
> Can anyone say our record wouldn't be equal or better with MJ or Omar Cook running the show with Calderon? Or with Marcus Williams as a backup?
> 
> ...


A big part of TJ Ford's criticism comes from the fact that many people are bitter about the CV trade. It is quite common for a point guard to struggle running a new team. But because the raps got Ford by giving up CV, any mistake that Ford makes this season will be directed to the "We should've kept CV" argument. The Raps lineup needs a player that can penetrate and run the break, something that Ford excels at once he learns how his teammates position themselves on the court. Take nothing away from Calderon, but in my opinion he is best used as a 2nd unit point guard playing around 20 minutes a game.

As for the omar cook and mike james argument, Omar Cook isn't even in the league. There has to be something wrong with him that making teams think twice before giving him a contract. Without knowing the full extent of his shortcomings, I don't think it's fair to make any comparison regarding Cook. For Mike James, last year was his contract year and he clearly was trying to earn a new contract. Look at his play this year and the Raps should be glad that they didn't pay the money to keep him.


----------



## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Start Calderon and give him 32 minutes, I guarantee he won't look half as impressive as he does now.


----------



## firstrounder (Oct 31, 2004)

I have to give TJ props for last night. He had a statement game, that was the best game by a PG for us this year.


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> As for the omar cook and mike james argument, Omar Cook isn't even in the league. There has to be something wrong with him that making teams think twice before giving him a contract. Without knowing the full extent of his shortcomings, I don't think it's fair to make any comparison regarding Cook. For Mike James, last year was his contract year and he clearly was trying to earn a new contract. Look at his play this year and the Raps should be glad that they didn't pay the money to keep him.


This is another example of something I read on these boards all the time and I think is completely false. There are many guys who could have been good nba players but just never got the opportunity to show what they could do. Sometimes its being stuck behind a star, sometimes its the style of play of the team, sometimes its the coach, and sometimes its just the politics of being a lottery pick versus being a second round pick. Lots of busts get to stick around the league forever because they were top 10 picks. And lots of very good second round picks never even get a chance to make a roster.

Omar Cook looked fantastic in real nba games with his actual Raptor teammates and didn't even get a camp invite the next year. Why? because his summer league wasnt' great playing with a bunch of scrubs in sloppy games where the refs are the stars? Wouldn't happen if he was a top draft pick. Guy had a few 10 assist games, and played actual D. Average shooter which was also the knock on Rafer before the Raps gave him a chance.

And there were several advantages to keeping MJ here. Say what you want about MJ but he had a killer pick and roll game with Bosh. In the halfcourt that was something we could always rely on and was virtually unguardable. Teams would have to hope MJ or Bosh shot poorly.

Second you have some consistancy and chemistry by keeping a core group together. Good teams do not keep turning their roster over year after year. MJ was a competitor who brought it every night and fired up his teammates. Adding a Rasho, Garbs, and Bargs to last years group would have shown more immediate improvement to our team. And if we drafted Marcus or traded Charlie for a starting SF we could really be heading somewhere.

MJ could easily have put in major minutes at SG while splitting the PG with Calderon and a third PG like Cook or MWilliams.

MJ stays
Rasho replaces Hoffa
Garbs replaces Bonner
Bargs replaces Rose (buyout)
Calderon improves
Bosh improves
Charlie improves or gets traded for SF
Joey G gets to play and maybe improve
Hump added to bench
MoP is MoP
Cook or Williams as third PG

no need for Fred Jones or Parker. no big contract for TJ. That's about 18 mill savings there less the 5 for MJ.


----------



## Mem-fizz (Jun 29, 2002)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Start Calderon and give him 32 minutes, I guarantee he won't look half as impressive as he does now.


You guarantee...????
Maybe you know something we don´t know...
At this point we know that with playtime Calderon can make your team a World Champion, like he proved with Spain NT some months ago. That´s a fact.


----------



## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Does 26 pts and 18 assists sort of put this thread to bed for a while?


----------



## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

The Mad Viking said:


> Does 26 pts and 18 assists sort of put this thread to bed for a while?


Not as much as a few wins would.


----------



## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

FWIW, Ford's on-court/off-court plus/minus is +11.5, and Calderon's is -15.4, from 82games.com.


----------



## mm5264075 (Jun 30, 2006)

I hate to inform you Raptor fans about this fact, but we as bucks fans had all the same excuses about TJ before we shipped him out of town. At one point last year it was painfully obvious the Mo Williams was better than TJ, but we couldn't start him because TJ was the former lottery pick. Don't be fooled by the occasional great statline. Last year TJ had like 35pts and 15asst against Orlando, but it was a tease. I hate to say it because I was elated when the buck drafted him, but TJ is and will always be overrated because of his accomplishments in high school and college. He overestimates his ability and often tries to do to much. Eventually Bosh will get sick of TJ the same way Redd tired of his wild play.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> Omar Cook looked fantastic in real nba games with his actual Raptor teammates and didn't even get a camp invite the next year. Why? because his summer league wasnt' great playing with a bunch of scrubs in sloppy games where the refs are the stars? Wouldn't happen if he was a top draft pick. Guy had a few 10 assist games, and played actual D. Average shooter which was also the knock on Rafer before the Raps gave him a chance.


Like I said, you and I both don't know the full extent of the reasons why Omar Cook cannot find a spot in the NBA. I'm not a NBA GM, I don't work for any NBA teams and I doubt you do as well. If a player has flaws away from his game, there really is no way for us fans to know the full story. Therefore I think it is best that we respect the judgement of NBA GMs and scouts. I know there are players that get the unfair end of the stick, but the majority of the time I think the GMs are correct.



> And there were several advantages to keeping MJ here. Say what you want about MJ but he had a killer pick and roll game with Bosh. In the halfcourt that was something we could always rely on and was virtually unguardable. Teams would have to hope MJ or Bosh shot poorly.
> 
> Second you have some consistancy and chemistry by keeping a core group together. Good teams do not keep turning their roster over year after year. MJ was a competitor who brought it every night and fired up his teammates. Adding a Rasho, Garbs, and Bargs to last years group would have shown more immediate improvement to our team. And if we drafted Marcus or traded Charlie for a starting SF we could really be heading somewhere.


I am sure there are some advantages in keeping James here since if there isn't any, nobody would be talking about not trading him. The disadvantages of keeping him here outweighs the advantages in this case though. Mike James is almost 32 years old coming off his best season in a contract year. Add that to the fact that the best Mike James he can be still did not fill the void of Raptors, which is a pass-first, up-tempo, penetrating point guard.

I agree that for a team to have success, the team needs to stay together. The raptors though, are in a rebuilding stage. Only 4 players from last year remained in this year's 12 man roster. After couple years of Babcock it was obvious to BC that the raps need to rebuild. Now that most main pieces of the puzzle are in place, I am sure BC will stick with them and not mess around with it every year.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

mm5264075 said:


> I hate to inform you Raptor fans about this fact, but we as bucks fans had all the same excuses about TJ before we shipped him out of town. At one point last year it was painfully obvious the Mo Williams was better than TJ, but we couldn't start him because TJ was the former lottery pick. Don't be fooled by the occasional great statline. Last year TJ had like 35pts and 15asst against Orlando, but it was a tease. I hate to say it because I was elated when the buck drafted him, but TJ is and will always be overrated because of his accomplishments in high school and college. He overestimates his ability and often tries to do to much. Eventually Bosh will get sick of TJ the same way Redd tired of his wild play.


Well, let's look at TJ Ford's career with the Bucks.

Rookie year: Learning experience cut short by a freakish spinal injury.
04-05': missed entire year
05-06': Coming back after more than 1 year layoff.

The guy is only 23 years old. Don't you think it's a bit early to be making these assessments on how his career with pan out?


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

The AGE game is always the last line of defence for guys defending bad play. That's a mugs game. The money is being paid now, and the games are being played now. This is not a rookie we are talking about. You have to give a rook two years to prove himself. More for a HS kid.

How old is Sam Cassel? How old did Stockton play til? Many guys just keep going and going. Do you really dump the better, cheaper player that showed he could fit well here because of age? Risky move. Especially when MJ has fewer hard miles on him than most guards his age. And with Calderon coming on strong behind him you don't need him playing 40mpg.

The only special skill TJ has right now is his speed. And that doesnt lend itself to team basketball that well.


----------



## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by *lucky777s !*
> 
> The AGE game is always the last line of defence for guys defending bad play. That's a mugs game. The money is being paid now, and the games are being played now. This is not a rookie we are talking about. You have to give a rook two years to prove himself.


I would normally agree with your point, but I would give PG's and Centers a little longer to learn the position than the other positions because they are said to be the toughest positions to learn.

Steve Nash averaged 7.2 ppg and 4 assts his first four years in the league, Chauncey Billups bounced around the league before he excelled in Detroit, so there are situations where young, very talented PG's just need time to play and learn to the game. 

Some rookie pg's come into the league (like Chris Paul or Jason Kidd) and dominate right off the bat, while others need time to develop, most of the time you don't know know which one you gonna get.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> How old is Sam Cassel? How old did Stockton play til? Many guys just keep going and going. Do you really dump the better, cheaper player that showed he could fit well here because of age? Risky move. Especially when MJ has fewer hard miles on him than most guards his age. And with Calderon coming on strong behind him you don't need him playing 40mpg.


The difference between Sam Cassel and Mike James is that the Cassell he has been in the past is exactly what the Clippers need. They needed his character, they needed his clutch shooting, they needed his 1 on 1 skills at the point. Obviously Cassell isn't going to get any better with age, but he can still provide all those things the Clipper need. James on the other hand, does not provide the raps with what they need in a point guard even when James is in his prime. Given that he is almost 32, it's likely that he won't get any better in years to come either. If you look at his stats this year, it is back to his career average of around 12 ppg 5 ast playing around 30 minutes a game. No matter how you look at it, the Mike James last year, 2 years ago, a year from now isn't the player that the Raptors want running their team, and that's why they needed a change.


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Mike James has been horrible of late.

Our PG rotation of TJ and Calderon, on the other hand, is awesome - by far the best the Raptors have ever had.


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Mike James has been horrible of late.


Whoa! I call BS on that line.

Your complaint with MJ was what? Took too many shots? Well this year he is only taking 10 shots per game which is what you supposedly prefer. So you now trash his stats because he is shooting less? Make up your mind.

Let's look at the stats the last two years.

MJ
37mpg .469fg .442 3pt 5.8apg 2.6 topg 15 shots TOR
30mpg .416fg .406 3pt 4.7apg 2.18 topg 10 shots MIN

TJ
35mpg .416fg .357 3pt 6.6apg 3 topg 11.2 shots MIL
33mpg .478fg .308 3pt 8.3apg 3.8 topg 13.4 shots TOR

MJ is on a brand new team learning a new role too, but I guess that is only an excuse for TJ.

MJ is still shooting big time 3pt% which our team is struggling mightily with. TJ's higher assist total comes with almost twice the turnovers. And he is taking way more shots than MJ this year. One third more shots.

Minnesota is 24th in the league in scoring which is going to hurt MJ's assist totals. Just like TJ's totals were lower in MIL. The system is making those stats inflate. But MJ had less turnovers carrying a horrible Raptor team by himself many nights than TJ did as a lesser player in MIL and not even playing crunch time minutes at times.

MJ's has now proven he is willing to step back and run the show when he has legit options to work with. MIN is also the 4th best Defensive team in the league by PPG while the Raps are 4th worst. MIN is also a .500 team right now. They have wins against DEN, CLIPS, NOK, and SAC. They play in a real conference against legit playoff teams unlike the Raps.

MJ also has the skills to play SG alongside Calderon which TJ just cannot.


----------



## arcade_rida (Jun 23, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> This is another example of something I read on these boards all the time and I think is completely false. There are many guys who could have been good nba players but just never got the opportunity to show what they could do. Sometimes its being stuck behind a star, sometimes its the style of play of the team, sometimes its the coach, and sometimes its just the politics of being a lottery pick versus being a second round pick. Lots of busts get to stick around the league forever because they were top 10 picks. And lots of very good second round picks never even get a chance to make a roster.
> 
> Omar Cook looked fantastic in real nba games with his actual Raptor teammates and didn't even get a camp invite the next year. Why? because his summer league wasnt' great playing with a bunch of scrubs in sloppy games where the refs are the stars? Wouldn't happen if he was a top draft pick. Guy had a few 10 assist games, and played actual D. Average shooter which was also the knock on Rafer before the Raps gave him a chance.
> 
> ...


Why does it matter about money though? Either way after re-signing Chris Bosh we wouldn't have any cap space left, so saving money is basically besides the point unless you are the owner of MLSE.


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Why does money matter? Have you been here the last 6 years? Do you not see how tough it is to add pieces when a team is capped out and stuck in mediocrity?

Chances like this past summer are rare. You have to add key pieces when you get that kind of cap room. Raps didn't get a single impact player with the most amount of cap room in the league and actually lost their second best player for nothing. That is poor management. Especially when you give up a nice first round pick to clear that capspace.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

The raptors have one of the lowest team salaries in the NBA, it is way too early to panic about our current cap situation. Mourning and Alvin Williams' contracts both come off the books after this season and if my memory is correct, this is mopete's contract year also. As long as BC don't make those Hakeem/Mourning/Montross blunders, the raps should still be in great shape for years to come.

I don't know why you keep repeat the lines "BC did not add a single impact player". Please name me 3 teams that had more improvements than the Raptors in the offseason. Besides Denver, I really cannot agree with saying any other team improved more than the Raptors did this summer. Portland got Magloire who hasn't been doing much since 03'. Boston got Telfair, Indiana got Al Harrington, both signing are debatable whether they are successes. Houston got Battier at the expense of Rudy Gay and Stromile Swift, and signed a headcase in Bonzi Wells. The Bulls, well, I wouldn't comment on them with all the early season Ben Wallace fiasco. 

Let's just face it, last summer wasn't a huge year in terms of talented free agents. The Raps went overseas and got Parker and Garbajosa which are servicable players (so far anyway) and signed Fred Jones. I would take Raptors' summer over most other teams' anyday. If you want to go against most people's opinion and say that the Raptors 06' team is less talented than the 05' team and that the team is going in the wrong direction, that is up to you. Book mark this thread or something and let's come back in a year or 2.


----------



## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> Whoa! I call BS on that line.
> 
> Your complaint with MJ was what? Took too many shots? Well this year he is only taking 10 shots per game which is what you supposedly prefer. So you now trash his stats because he is shooting less? Make up your mind.
> 
> ...


Pretty selective use of the stats there, lucky.

TJ is scoring 15.4 ppg and rebounding at 4.2 pg.

MJ is scoring 11.3 and rebounding 2.1.

TJ is scoring 1.18 pts per FGA, James is scoring 1.17. So even with James superior outside shooting, he is not more effective in quality, and certainly not in quantity either.


----------



## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

[dp]


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

The Mad Viking said:


> Pretty selective use of the stats there, lucky.
> 
> TJ is scoring 15.4 ppg and rebounding at 4.2 pg.
> MJ is scoring 11.3 and rebounding 2.1.
> ...


MJ is clearly the better offensive player. You dont' need stats to tell you that. Teams can simply go under screens with TJ while that would be death with MJ. MJ also drove to the hoop very strong and finished well inside. And as a 3pt threat there is no contest at all. You have to guard MJ the entire offensive end. TJ is all about transition and nothing else.

And the stat I should have mentioned is FT%. That and turnovers are KEY stats for PG's who have to handle the ball in crunch time and will go to the FT line. Who cares about a 1rpg difference in their careers.

The point is that TJ has shown nothing special so far and is overrated. I could just as easily compare game tapes of Rafer and TJ, Omar Cook and TJ, a healthy Alvin and TJ, Damon Stoudamire and TJ, Chris Childs and TJ and dozens of other guards across the league.


----------



## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> I don't know why you keep repeat the lines "BC did not add a single impact player".
> 
> Let's just face it, last summer wasn't a huge year in terms of talented free agents.


I say it because it is true. Name an impact FA he signed with the cap space? Why did we give up the first round pick if there was no urgent need for this space? That's my point. Rarely does a team get that much cap space to work with.

Your second point is weak. Cap space is never just about FA's. Any GM can bid on free agents. A smart GM uses the cap space to work unbalanced trades. Or to faciliate trades for other teams and collecting assets like first round picks in the process. Colangelo did nothing with it and gave up a first round pick to get it. That is a bad summer in my books. And now he has extended TJ with a huge deal that he may or may not live up to. Not to mention that trade may not have maximized Charlie's value.

I could care less what other teams did. They were not in our position. And they didn't have the great Bryan Colangelo at the helm.


----------



## chocolove (Apr 4, 2006)

lucky777s said:


> I say it because it is true. Name an impact FA he signed with the cap space? Why did we give up the first round pick if there was no urgent need for this space? That's my point. Rarely does a team get that much cap space to work with.
> 
> Your second point is weak. Cap space is never just about FA's. Any GM can bid on free agents. A smart GM uses the cap space to work unbalanced trades. Or to faciliate trades for other teams and collecting assets like first round picks in the process. Colangelo did nothing with it and gave up a first round pick to get it. That is a bad summer in my books. And now he has extended TJ with a huge deal that he may or may not live up to. Not to mention that trade may not have maximized Charlie's value.
> 
> I could care less what other teams did. They were not in our position. And they didn't have the great Bryan Colangelo at the helm.


okay, say we kept our mid round pick and didnt sign garbo, parker, and fred jones. Who could we have gotten from that draft that would of been better than those 3? nobody theyre all garbage. We got the player best player from that draft and left it at that.

I agree about using our cap space to work unbalance trades but we really didnt have any good assets to trade.

Also about charlie V's value, TJ probably wasnt BC's first option but i could see how during negotiations teams would try to low ball BC by saying charlie's rookie year was a fluke. If that was the case BC should of kept Charlie but Andrea was the guy he wanted to team up with Bosh and i guess he saw Charlie V as someone that might hinder his development


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

lucky777s said:


> MJ is clearly the better offensive player. You dont' need stats to tell you that. Teams can simply go under screens with TJ while that would be death with MJ. MJ also drove to the hoop very strong and finished well inside. And as a 3pt threat there is no contest at all. You have to guard MJ the entire offensive end. TJ is all about transition and nothing else.
> 
> And the stat I should have mentioned is FT%. That and turnovers are KEY stats for PG's who have to handle the ball in crunch time and will go to the FT line. Who cares about a 1rpg difference in their careers.
> 
> The point is that TJ has shown nothing special so far and is overrated. I could just as easily compare game tapes of Rafer and TJ, Omar Cook and TJ, a healthy Alvin and TJ, Damon Stoudamire and TJ, Chris Childs and TJ and dozens of other guards across the league.


bah. ford is easily the best point guard we've had. his game needs refinement but he's a game changer. i really don't understand why you're attacking him like this.


----------



## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

Seriously? This is Mike James we're talking about. He's not an offensive threat and never was until last year, and hardly is this year.
He's considered a bust of a signing in Minnesota.
James is 32
T.J. is 23
Come'on.


----------



## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i'm not sure why it hasn't been mentioned but tj's defensive game looks a lot more rough around the edges than i remember it being. his offensive game is slowly rounding into form as he (presumably) begins to understand the patterns and strengths of his teammates, but he doesn't look like tj ford yet (imo) behind the ball. to put my finger on something specific, he doesn't seem nearly as active as... tj ford. before the injury he was a lot more disruptive than he seems to be today, and i'm hesitant to attribute that to rust. but i don't know what it is or what it could be.

if he can regain his 'old' fire on the defensive end, i think we'll be better off. we don't have many threats anywhere on the floor- to block shots, swipe balls or... do much of anything defensively- and i'd like to see tj's speed begin to bear fruits for us on both sides of the ball.

peace


----------



## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

True, ballocks. What I can't really understand is a guy with all that speed playing under screens. IMO, TJ simply has to fight over the screens, and use his speed to recover.


----------



## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> MJ is clearly the better offensive player. You dont' need stats to tell you that. Teams can simply go under screens with TJ while that would be death with MJ. MJ also drove to the hoop very strong and finished well inside. And as a 3pt threat there is no contest at all. You have to guard MJ the entire offensive end. TJ is all about transition and nothing else.
> 
> And the stat I should have mentioned is FT%. That and turnovers are KEY stats for PG's who have to handle the ball in crunch time and will go to the FT line. Who cares about a 1rpg difference in their careers.
> 
> The point is that TJ has shown nothing special so far and is overrated. I could just as easily compare game tapes of Rafer and TJ, Omar Cook and TJ, a healthy Alvin and TJ, Damon Stoudamire and TJ, Chris Childs and TJ and dozens of other guards across the league.


Pointless arguing with someone who uses only the numbers that support his argument, and says you don't need numbers to tell you anything whenever the numbers don't support his argument...


----------



## arcade_rida (Jun 23, 2003)

The Mad Viking said:


> Pointless arguing with someone who uses only the numbers that support his argument, and says you don't need numbers to tell you anything whenever the numbers don't support his argument...



Obviously, he is flip floping and doesn't make any sense in my opinion.


----------

