# One team fades into obscurity; another rises to stardom (LA/Clev)



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

One of the points of interest on the upcoming season (IMHO) is the fate of these two franchises, who are clearly going into opposite directions...

The Lakers are old, injury prone and are yet to see what Kobe can deliver after returning from major injury (not that i'm betting against the dude, but IT IS uncertain if he can regain his all-world form).
The ceiling for this roster seams to be a 7th/8th spot on the playoffs and a quick first round exit.
They also won't defend a lick.
Worse, it will take a miracle (as in, both players taking major major cuts in salary and getting a Top-10 player to join) to get a contending roster around Kobe and Gasol for the next couple of years (Nash will be gone, since he already is just a shell of his former self).

It's painfull to say, but IMHO Kobe Bryant will play for nothing the next couple of seasons then retire, thus ending the Kobe-Lakers era.
Come rebuilding time, it will take some seasons (and a great deal of luck) for the Lakers to get back to contender status.

On the opposite, the Cavs have assembled players that, IF (i know it's a gigantic if) injury-free, should make them the most exciting up-and-coming team in the League AND, IMHO, contending for the ECF this very season (again: depending on health).

In Irving, they've got one of the best point (although more of a scoring) guards in the league and great go-to guy. A superstar in the making. 
In Bynum (yeah, right! Health!) they have the best center in the league for a couple of years.
If Varejão plays the 4, one of the best defensive and rebounding frontcourts in the league.
Capt. Jack was a great adition, and will play heavy minutes (as a 6th man or playing alongside Irving for extended periods of time);
Clark was also a good sign, and will bring defense and rebounding.
Guys like Waiters and Thompson will continue to develop.
And, of course, there's the #1 pick Bennet, who makes this team 8-deep with talent.

Signing coach Brown will also help. Has had great success in Cleveland and should help with defense.

If the stars align for this team, the Cavs jump to Indiana/Chicago territory in the East, IMHO.
Even if they not (as in, Bynum playing poorly - if at all) they are a playoff lock in the very least.

Do you guys agree these are the likely scenarios for both teams?


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## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

Too many unknowns in Cleveland to call anything likely. Waiters, Thompson, and Bennett are all wildcards to me. Add Bynum to that and that's another variable. The Lakers may still very well be the better team, just in a deeper conference that would punish them for not improving a roster that nearly missed the postseason last year.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> On the opposite, the Cavs have assembled players that, IF (i know it's a gigantic if) injury-free, should make them the most exciting up-and-coming team in the League AND, IMHO, *contending for the ECF this very season* (again: depending on health).


My brain hurts after reading this.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Cleveland's going to be a big let-down team. I just don't see them getting enough healthy games out of their core to be anything more than first round fodder, at best.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

I can't wait to see who Cleveland picks in the lottery next year


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## NK1990 (Mar 26, 2011)

Come on guys lets face it, the Lakers aren't going anywhere. They will always be in discussion for the playoffs and championships. They've only had a handful of bad seasons in their entire history. I remember on here people would say that Kobe wasn't winning another ring back in 06 and what happens? He wins 2 more rings. The Lakers will be fine.


Cavs are just completely up in the air though, I love Irvings game and am very curious about Anthony Bennet, Dion Waiters, and Andrew Bynum. That team should be really fun IF healthy lol.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Lakers will be a top 5-10 team again by 2015. How much and how long they allow Kobe to cripple them financially as he gets older will decide how long they'll be down. If Kobe takes a huge pay cut over the next 3-4 years, they will be right back to the top much sooner than we think. They may not win a championship that soon but they'll be in contention. This is the Lakers we're talking about. 

Cavs will need Irving to be a flat out superstar and for their defense to be top 5 in the league in order to get to Indiana/Chicago status. Plus one of those other guys will have to step up and be a borderline all-star. And saying "if Bynum is healthy" these days is not that insightful. It's just very unlikely. 

Cavs have a lot going for them, but they have a long ways to go as well. Lakers will always have a lot going for them, and when they're down, it won't be for long.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I was curious, so I looked it up and Wilt Chamberlain played more around 800 more minutes in the first three years of his career than Bynum has played in the first eight years of his career.

In other words, I would not count on much from him. It's a good risk at the deal they put him on, but the dude is broken physically and mentally he's Andrew Bynum.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

They're the Lakers. We're talking about a team that saw West, Baylor and Chamberlin retire and had Kareem two seasons later. Magic retired and Kobe and Shaq were there 5 seasons later. I don't see a 5 year string of lottery appearances happening for them as long as we're alive. Warriors, Raptors and Twolves fans are probably mocking this eulogy. 

The cavs just seem like one of those team of the futures that will blow up before doing anything. Like the Blazers of about 5 years ago.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> They're the Lakers. We're talking about a team that saw West, Baylor and Chamberlin retire and had Kareem two seasons later. Magic retired and Kobe and Shaq were there 5 seasons later. *I don't see a 5 year string of lottery appearances happening for them as long as we're alive*. Warriors, Raptors and Twolves fans are probably mocking this eulogy.


I'm not saying 5 years without a playoff spot. For the Lakers, it's championship or bust, and i don't see them contending anytime soon.

Sure, they will probably (history as showned it) nab a great established (sp?) player in a couple of years, but that won't be enough to compete.

Is it possible (even probable) that the Lakers will keep getting into the playoffs the last couple of Kobe's seasons and continue to do so after he retires? Yeah, sure. But the most likely scenario will be 1st-and-outs. And that, for this franchise, is "obscurity".



> The cavs just seem like one of those team of the futures that will blow up before doing anything. Like the Blazers of about 5 years ago.


Folks should keep in mind that one of my postulates (?) was that the team would be healthy. 
If so (and i'm talking about Irving and Bynum playing 82 games a season), i think the sky's the limit for them: top players at the 2 most important positions, a couple of others that, if they develop properly (like others have said, they are wildcards at the moment), should make serious impact and a defensive-minded coach.

I mean, what's not to LOVE about the potential of a Irving/Waiters/Bennet(?)/Varejão/Bynum/Capt Jack/Thompson/Clark rotation playing close to 82 games a season?

Obviously, chances are that health will be an issue (again).
But i have a good feeling about this team.
Heck, i bet that Bynum will be playing (at least) following the all-star game, average something like 17/11 and help lead the Cavs to a surprise playoff run!


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## hoopfan101 (Aug 3, 2013)

PauloCatarino said:


> One of the points of interest on the upcoming season (IMHO) is the fate of these two franchises, who are clearly going into opposite directions...
> 
> The Lakers are old, injury prone and are yet to see what Kobe can deliver after returning from major injury (not that i'm betting against the dude, but IT IS uncertain if he can regain his all-world form).
> The ceiling for this roster seams to be a 7th/8th spot on the playoffs and a quick first round exit.
> ...


IMO Lakers will retool in year 2 or 3 unless the owners get a horrible wrap of not being player friendly and not committed to win. They also need to dump Coach D. 

As for Cavs- I don't see them as a threat this year (though a playoff team) . By that I mean make it to ECF's. Though I do believe Irving has super chance to be superstar this year. IMO Bynum being out a year will hurt him for this year. And the other young kids need to go through a playoff before they can get very far. At best win 1 round this year. Depends on injuries and how Bynum looks etc. 

IMO Cavs will be in big trouble with Irving similar with LBJ. Waiters and Bennett better get real good. Once Irving gets a taste for the playoffs he'll start to look real hard at other options. 

In summary, in year 2 or 3 I wouldn't be suprised if Lakers get players and they dump Coach D. Become relevant. And I wouln't be suprised if Irvings lets it be known after next year he will bolt after next year. This is just a wild tealaf guess.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> I'm not saying 5 years without a playoff spot. For the Lakers, it's championship or bust, and i don't see them contending anytime soon.
> 
> Sure, they will probably (history as showned it) nab a great established (sp?) player in a couple of years, but that won't be enough to compete.
> 
> ...


The lakers went at least 3 years without contending when west, magic and shaq all left. You act like this is some astound using downfall. 


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> The lakers went at least 3 years without contending when west, magic and shaq all left. *You act like this is some astound using downfall. *
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


After West, there was KAJ and Magic. After Magic, there was Shaq and Kobe. The Lakers had the fortune (and skill) to draft or sign FOUR All-Time Top-10 players in that period of time. What are the chances of that happening again? And sooner than later?

I fear it will take a little time to get this franchise to return to contending status again. I would be AMAZED if they can do it in "3 years"... But, obvioulsy, i'll be crossing my fingers for that...


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, or something like that? Too many ifs... too much fragility... a franchise point guard that is a turnstile on defense... They're not a 1st round home court team, much less an ECF contender. If everyone stays healthy, they may be capable of a first round upset if a top 4 seed slips and self destructs.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

I didn't expect Bynum to play (even if limited minutes) the opener...
Hmmm... If dude gets back to form quickly (and remains healthy, off course) things will be very interesting for the Cavs...

Although: how many #1 picks didn't manage to score a FG in his first game in the NBA? 

Regarding the Lakers: uke: at their second game.


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

Adam said:


> My brain hurts after reading this.


Why ? He's right


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

LeGoat06 said:


> Why ? He's right


If you think the Cavs will be competing for the ECF... well.. how about this: I give you 10-1 odds, $100 of your dollars says the Cavs aren't in the ECF this year.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> On the opposite, the Cavs have assembled players that, IF (i know it's a gigantic if) injury-free, should make them the most exciting up-and-coming team in the League AND, IMHO, *contending for the ECF this very season* (again: depending on health)...





> In Bynum (yeah, right! Health!) they have the best center in the league for a couple of years





> And, of course, there's the #1 pick Bennet, who makes this team 8-deep with talent





> Signing coach Brown will also help. Has had great success in Cleveland and should help with defense





> If the stars align for this team, the Cavs jump to Indiana/Chicago territory in the East, IMHO.
> Even if they not (as in, Bynum playing poorly - if at all) they are a playoff lock in the very least...


*Bump*




> Do you guys agree these are the likely scenarios for both teams?


No.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Adam said:


> *Bump*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, i was terribly wrong regarding the Cavs. I still think they have the talent (even without Bynum and Bennet), but they just can't put it together. I've watched many Cavs games this season and i just can't understand why they keep sucking so bad...


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## BobStackhouse42 (Oct 7, 2010)

PauloCatarino said:


> Yeah, i was terribly wrong regarding the Cavs. I still think they have the talent (even without Bynum and Bennet), but they just can't put it together. I've watched many Cavs games this season and i just can't understand why they keep sucking so bad...


I don't agree. The only way this team had enough talent to be good was if they got good production from Bynum and Bennett.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

BobStackhouse42 said:


> I don't agree. The only way this team had enough talent to be good was if they got good production from Bynum and Bennett.


I thought they needed Bynum and Bennet to put them over the top in the Conference, as in ECF contenders.

On paper, the roster seemed fine: Irvin, Waiters, Thompson, Varejão, Jack and Miles SHOULD have been enough to make the playoffs in the dreadfull Eastern Conference. Heck, it's arguable that roster is better than, say, the Suns' (wich are firmly in playoff land in the West).

Obviously, defense would be an issue. But since defense appeared to be Brown's forte, i thought they would improve greatly on that side of the ball. Didn't happen.

However, all is not lost, and they made a great move by signing Deng (with him in the starting line-up the Cavs are 4-5). They still have time to put it together.

My biggest disappointment, so far, is Kyrie Irvin. I thought this was the season he was gonna break out as a bona fide superstar.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> On paper, the roster seemed fine: Irvin, Waiters, Thompson, Varejão, Jack and Miles SHOULD have been enough to make the playoffs in the dreadfull Eastern Conference.


Other than Kyrie and possible Andy, that looks like a very nice bench. But as a starting line-up? I'm not so sure. Waiters and Jack are both very solid bench guards. Miles is a good bench wing. Thompson is a decent third big. The problem is that somebody in that group has to start with Kyrie.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Lakers beat the cavs last night with four eligible players to end the game. 


http://mweb.cbssports.com/nba/eye-o...left-the-lakers-still-close-out-the-cavaliers


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Has Paulo ever been more wrong about anything on these boards?


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Basel said:


> Has Paulo ever been more wrong about anything on these boards?


Half-wrong!


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

BUMP just to give notice that the Cavs are riding a 4-game winning streak (!!!!!!) 

Even Bennet has improved, scoring in double digits in 4 of the last 8 games and skyrocketing his offensive production to 3.8ppg at .318FG% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:yesyesyes:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1609587-is-anthony-bennett-turning-a-corner-for-cleveland-cavaliers


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## kbdullah (Jul 8, 2010)

Should've been titled "Both teams fade to obscurity"


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Just goes to show you that all those fancy metrics don't tell the whole story. Sure, there is some talent there and youth. But, they have a major chemistry problem there. 

LeBron spoiled the Cavs. They now believe one good player can carry a roster full of dreck to success. 2007 was a one hit wonder, never to be repeated.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

LA68 said:


> *Just goes to show you that all those fancy metrics don't tell the whole story. Sure, there is some talent there and youth. But, they have a major chemistry problem there.*
> 
> LeBron spoiled the Cavs. They now believe one good player can carry a roster full of dreck to success. 2007 was a one hit wonder, never to be repeated.


Interestingly enough, the Cavs are, right now, the second (Rockets, 8) hottest team in the league, with a 6 game winning streak 

They seem to have been putting it all together, and getting Spencer Hawes should help some. 
Off course, it's probably too late into the season. And if they are really selling Luol Deng, getting to the playoffs doesn't appear to be a priority. F!

Regarding the Lakers, meh!


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

There is no sane reason for a Laker fan to be disappointed with this season. The intention from the beginning should have been to tank for a top 5 pick in the strongest draft class since the Lebron/Wade/Bosh draft. 

Even with a healthy Kobe, Gasol and Nash, they aren't going past the 2nd round. It's just not happening with the athleticism and strength of the West. They need some potential to build on and use Kobe's big contract to meet the minimum cap and keep people coming to the Staples Center for the next couple of years. 

This collapse was inevitable, and it's no surprise Kupchak is keeping Kobe out as long as possible. They should, and will, continue to shamelessly tank.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> Interestingly enough, the Cavs are, right now, the second (Rockets, 8) hottest team in the league, with a 6 game winning streak
> 
> They seem to have been putting it all together, and getting Spencer Hawes should help some.
> Off course, it's probably too late into the season. And if they are really selling Luol Deng, getting to the playoffs doesn't appear to be a priority. F!
> ...


In the East:
8 - Knicks 33-43, 3-3 in the last 6 games;
9 - Atlanta 32-42, 1-5
10 - Cleveland 31-45, 5-1.

Cleveland has only 6 games left, but all of them are winnable. They have the easiest schedule of the trio.
Could it be? :shocked:


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

Being 3 games behind Atlanta in the loss column will be tough for Cleveland to overcome. The Knicks' schedule is 100% Eastern Conference playoff teams from here on out. I don't think they're getting in. Looks like the Hawks' race to lost in my mind.

Although, if the Cavs can beat the Hawks tomorrow night... it might get interesting. Hawks do have a 5 in 7 coming up.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

RollWithEm said:


> Being 3 games behind Atlanta in the loss column will be tough for Cleveland to overcome. The Knicks' schedule is 100% Eastern Conference playoff teams from here on out. I don't think they're getting in. Looks like the Hawks' race to lost in my mind.
> 
> Although, if the Cavs can beat the Hawks tomorrow night... it might get interesting. Hawks do have a 5 in 7 coming up.


Atlanta's remaining schedule:

Cleveland Cavaliers 
@ Indiana Pacers 
Detroit Pistons 
Boston Celtics 
@ Brooklyn Nets 
Miami Heat 
Charlotte Bobcats 
@ Milwaukee Bucks 

I can see them losing 4 games.
What is more improbable is the Cavs winning all their remaining games, although, like i've said, they are all winnable:

@ Atlanta Hawks 
Charlotte Bobcats 
Detroit Pistons 
@ Milwaukee Bucks 
Boston Celtics 
Brooklyn Nets

But it all starts next game (Cavs vs Atl)... Go Cavs!


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> In the East:
> 8 - Knicks 33-43, 3-3 in the last 6 games;
> 9 - Atlanta 32-42, 1-5
> 10 - Cleveland 31-45, 5-1.
> ...


This thread = the worst prediction in BBF history.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> Atlanta's remaining schedule:
> 
> Cleveland Cavaliers
> @ Indiana Pacers
> ...


While I don't think they'll make the playoffs, I'm not sure how sneaking in winning 32 games and getting killed is a team "on the rise."


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> While I don't think they'll make the playoffs, I'm not sure how sneaking in winning 32 games and getting killed *is a team "on the rise."*


That ship has sailed a loooong time ago...  Pay more attention, Chubby!


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## 27dresses (Nov 5, 2009)

I have loved this thread since its conception


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

The gross mismanagement of the franchise limited their rebirth to about a month. Given how well they've played since Irving went down, and the continuous stories about clubhouse dissension centered around him, and the stories about his desire to get the hell out of Cleveland, it may be time to call the Uncle Drew era to a close and move on.


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## 27dresses (Nov 5, 2009)

E.H. Munro said:


> The gross mismanagement of the franchise limited their rebirth to about a month. Given how well they've played since Irving went down, and the continuous stories about clubhouse dissension centered around him, and the stories about his desire to get the hell out of Cleveland, it may be time to call the Uncle Drew era to a close and move on.


But not the end of the Kobe era in L.A.?


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

27dresses said:


> But not the end of the Kobe era in L.A.?


Contrary to my initial assumption, the Lakers have been much worse this season then i thought (wich can in part be explained by Kobe missing almost the entire season), so it's possible that the "Kobe-era in LA" can get a shot in the arm if they get lucky in the Draft and pick up a guy that can help right away and, couple with a re-signed (2 years) and healthy Kobe Bryant make things interesting next season.
The fact that MDA will probably get the boot can also help.
Hopefully, the lakers "fading into obscurity" will be slower than i initially thought (althought Kobe's days of leading a contending team are gone).


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