# Marbury and Team USA (long rant)



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

id like to keep this isolated in the knicks board, because this topic isnt nice to alot of players.

i have a laundry list of complaints.

1. Who the hell thought of the brilliant idea of starting Richard Jefferson? He played eerily reminiscent of Shandon Anderson. Defensively hes ok, but he didnt wanna shoot, and if he did, you knew it was a brick. Considering Marion is a better defender, AND a better shooter, why the hell was Jefferson starting.......let alone playing. Carmelo and LeBron sshould have had all of this scrubs minutes.

2. Stephon marbury is a bad point guard. He tries to make the flashiest of all flashy plays, but is just a turnover machine. And please, dont take another jumpshot, dump it in to duncan. Your the only point guard on the team, and your turnovers are higher then your dimes. My god learn to get around a pick. the guy Steph was defending drilled 8 open threes.

3. Allen Iverson starting cause hes larry Browns lover. Whats the point of starting AI, even having him on the team, if he wont shoot and primarily tries to pass...even though hes at shooting guard? what the hell. Shoot the damn ball. your the shooting guard. your one of the only guys who can hit these short treys. The hell is wrong with AI, just jack it up like in Philly. If AI wont shoot like he did late in the game, why play him? Iverson needs to play his game, screw trying to be a team player. you already are.

4. Stu Jackson. What a moron. Why in the hell isnt Mike Redd on the team? Why isnt Elton Brand on the team. i want outside shooting and offensive boards. Carlos Boozer is a scrub in olympic play. he had 16 the other day sure, but thats layups. This guy wont block any shot, and will let anybody score on him. and he doesnt hit the offensive glass as hard as brand. 

5. Larry Brown. Press them the whole game. we got 10 legit guys who can play 40 minutes a game, split the minutes, we can press the whole game and kill everyone. Learn to defend against the three. they shot 30 wide open treys. Mr Defense, teach these kids. And give Melo more minutes. Carmelo was the only guy FIGHTING out there. he was the only one who gave a damn. and more importantly, hes the best shooter on this team (unfortunately). 

6. Referees. Traveling my ***. The Iverson dunk Counted. I coulda swore i saw one ref dancing with the Italians after the game.

7. Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett, Jermaine O'Neal- Why did you turn down the invitations. mcGrady played for the qualifier, but didnt play in the real deal???? what is this? KG said he would come, what a man of his word. Oneal scared of terrorism???Ill get into that later.

I am embarrased to live in America. I have relatives in Greece, and i always talk about how good we play ball. In fact, i schooled everybody i played in the whole freakin country there. Id be more useful then Richard Jefferson, at least i can hit those close *** threes. i was bragging last year, about bringing the best players, but we got a bunch of second tier stars after Duncan. 

Its just an exhibition game, but its a game i will never forget. This to me, is just as bad as when we lost in 2002. Except then, it wasnt the olympics. And George "i always lose even if im the number 1 seed" Karl was coaching, no surprise there. but this is the olympics, this is where we have had some of the best teams ever play, winning by huge margins. we didnt just lose by 5-7 like Pierces squad, we got blown the hell out. Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, they didnt sit out like these spoiled rich lazy bums of today. I dont blame Kobe though, he had a real excuse. everyone else had some kind of joke excuse. Scared of terrorism? when the hell have terrorists attacked on a day worth noting? sept 11 wasnt a national holiday. Terrorists arent morons to attack when the security is as high as ever. 

thats all, if this team doesnt win every game from here on out, im moving to Canada.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Can't disagree with you on any of your points. The officiating is always going to be biased against Team USA. It happened in 72, 76, 84, 88 and it will happen again. 

Oh and have fun up North, eh.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

haven't seen them play, but your scouting report doesn't shock me. 

feeding duncan and melo sounds like a plan. not having a legit/consistent outside threat is a big mistake.

so who's worth taking from that italian team?


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

terrorists attacks on a day worth noting?? how bout the millenium plot that was foiled? the attacks in spain right before the election. Terrorists will attack whenver they can to create a spectacle and the olympics could be a spot to do it.


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## Ezmo (May 11, 2003)

sorry but i really dont think terrorists will attack this yrs olympics; too much public spectulation on it. If/When they strike again, it will be when no one expects it, just the way they like it. thats why there wasnt anything on any of the past american holidays; rumsfeld and crew put out some alert "WATCH OUT FOR TERROR! THIS HOLIDAY! COMING TO A CITY NEAR YOU!" and everyone gets freaked out. the next terror attack will be at some random time. like november 25th (knock-on-wood)


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## Ezmo (May 11, 2003)

oh, and on the olympic team, as im sitting here watching the USA-ZGermany game, im just so bored of it. Everything seems so sloppy. Youre right about jefferson and marbury, thats for sure. seems like boozer can't get his hands around the damn ball when he's trying to get a board. Marion on the court = more effective game. more notes later...


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

As a Spurs fan, I'm upset with Tim Duncan as well. I've seen him get the ball deep in the paint, then he throws up Vlade Divac-like shots where he tries to avoid contact, while trying to get a foul at the same time. That pisses me off.


Also, has anyone else noticed how many 1-2 foot passes there have been in this game for the US? Why pass the ball to a guy two steps away from you when he doesn't have better look at the basket?


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

1. jefferson still started, and still is useless.

2. Marbury still sucks as a point guard. what a moron jacking up that 3 at the end of the game, he should have held the ball and set up a real play. the clock was on our side. the hell? then dirk gets to tie the game with a three. COSTLY mistake. were lucky AI hit that shot.

3. Iverson did exactly what i said he should do. it was a crossover frenzy early on, getting to the basket and he hit 4 threes like i asked him too. no more stupid passing waiting for the shot clock to wind down

5. Larry Brown used more traps, but i still dont like his rotation.

6. referees still very biased

i agree about Duncan. he can simply dunk on all these fools when he gets the ball that close. he still shot a great percentage, but he could have shot like 90 percent, considering how close he was on most of his shots.

and yes i see this 1 foot passes that are absolutely useless. coaches teach you not to do this when your like 12.

dirk was a freakin monster. he hits the toughest of tough shots with hands in his face. its amazing.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*you'd think he'd learn...*

Jefferson is only playing because team USA thought Kidd would be coming...without him he is being exposed by Carmelo...hell everyone on the team is being exposed by Carmelo. Melo is hungry and is playing like it while everybody else expects the Euros to lay down and get ****ed like a $2 hoe. I actually saw Melo playing some great D. Everybody else very disappointing.

I'm also very disappointed in Marbury, he isn't doing anything out there. Just passing idly around the perimeter with a smile on his face, and dribbling like Franchise. Do Knicks fans really have to deal with this guy all of next year? Looks like he hasn't learned ANYTHING from Coach Brown.

When we lost to Italy I was just like this:  :|. The :upset: came later, in loud curses waking my mom up from her nap. I felt ashamed right there...team USA got blown out by a team with no NBA talent. Wanted to smash somethin'.

It was just disgraceful. Just shows Stern is interested in selling LeBron jerseys overseas than actually getting gold. Hopefully that Iverson miracle three gets them pumped for Serbia because that will be the real test. Right after he hit that I went to the park and just shot miracle threes like Allen, it really got me hyped up so hopefully they win that game by a large margin.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Marbury still sucks as a point guard


I am really glad you said that..I have felt all along that Frank Williams is a far better pure point guard than Starbury..he really doesnt make guys better and he doesnt run the break well...

Which brings us to the question...If we sign Crawford,would you trade Starbury for Vince??


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> I am really glad you said that..I have felt all along that Frank Williams is a far better pure point guard than Starbury..he really doesnt make guys better and he doesnt run the break well...
> ...


Funny, I'm just working on such a post now. I'm gonna post it as it's own thread.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Bring it on OAK


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

No way can this be right, I am going to have to grab some tape.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

some notes about todays game from serbia.

1. Vujanic sucks and is tremendously overrated, and i usually defend this kid. 

2. our defense is much improved

3. no cabarkaba and no jaric. this isnt the yugos best squad, but even with them, the score should have been the same

4. the refs still call way too many bogus travelling calls. Dwyane wade got the most of these bs calls.

5. Jefferson, still useless, still starting. hes just a waste of space on offense now. passing to him does nothing. he wont drive, he wont shoot (he took 1 shot today i believe) he'll just pass it right back. he should learn from Marion, to attack the offensive glass.

6. our 3 point shooting was good . i bet they worked alot of that, and facing a zone in general

7. Bodiroga, the best player not in the nba? give me a break, this guy is not that good. hes a 8th man, at best. and hes 31.

8. we only had 78 points. we gotta have ebtter execution and limit turnovers. ehem marbury....


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## 22ryno (Mar 17, 2003)

Marbury played well today. He wasn't taking erratic shots and he was getting the ball up the floor quickly and had several nice passes. I'd like to see him attack the basket more but you need to quit hatin' on the guy that will lead this team to the playoffs. He is the only all star on this team. Also I do agree about Jefferson and would like to see put on the bench where he belongs.


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## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

Wow, people really are *******s. These international teams have been together for months some even years. The USA TEAM HAS BEEN TOGETHER FOR BARELY A MONTH!

Then your saying how KG needs to keep his word, the man is getting married, same with Vince Carter(newlywed). 

Coming off of an 82 game season, longer if you've been in the playoffs you want them to play more basketball on their "vacation" time. It's for the country but they have no responsibility to do it. 

I'm not even talkinga bout the threats that are sent to the Olympic commitee like WestSideConnection.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

barely a month? who cares? we should be dominating like the other olympic teams who dominated with only few weeks to prepare. i dont care if the talent level of everyone else got better, thats an even better reason to send our best

KG commited to this way before he planned his wedding, its not a coincidence his wedding is the same time the olympics are. just an excuse. you plan things like this months in advance, its a bunch of crap.

it is their duty to play for our country when they all talked like they were gonna come, bring the respect back, then they back off of their word. Jordan, Bird,barkley,shaq,the admiral, they came, they wanted to. Our players today are way too spoiled and would rather make a shoe commercial. Guys like KG, Vince, Shaq i can understand, since they already won their gold medal. but the 10 other guys who said no? whats tmacs reason?

coming off an 82 game season......Peja Stojakovic has taken his summer off for the last 6 YEARS to represent his country. This further proves how spoiled us americans are. wow taking off one summer to win a gold medal. i dont feel like it. Peja was that commited to his country, and i respect why he didnt play this year, cause thats real fatigue. 6 years straight.

if you say yeah, im gonna come, dont say no when you gotta step up and go, cause that screws up the team in general. they gotta find other guys then, who might have already made plans. its not easy. if your not gonna go, say it from the begining.
-----------------------------------
EDIT- didnt wanna make a new post so ill just start my new one here.

Jesus Turkey is insane. I heard the hotel that our guys were staying at got exploded. thats terrible. luckily our guys left before that.

I STILL think the security in Greece however, will be as good as it gets. its the olympics.this isnt just a random hotel in turkey.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

Richard Jefferson should go hang himself. no really. this kid is no star in the nba either. If hes a franchise player, then the franchise is gonna be horrible. 

he was 1-8 in the first five minutes of the game, which took us completely out of our game. Im sorry larry, but starting him was a big mistake. 8 shots in less than 5 minutes? Theres a reason he was open. Shawn Marion please. They both shoot just as bad, but shawn has better D which would help us get back into our game.


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## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

Bad game I have nothing to see. Only thing we can do is move on and win every game by 40 next time. It was a fluke....


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

i woke up early to watch our guys against australia. again, our achilles heel was Richard freakin Jefferson. The guy is pure trash.

so were losing.....then larry brown does the unthinkable....in the start of the third, Marion starts instead of Jefferson. I HOPE that this is permanent. With Marion starting, we raped them to hell. then with less and less jefferson, we blew the game out.

marbury still cant shoot(remember him pulling up from 33 feet against the clips and drilling them? that was insane), but his passing in a zone is improving greatly. LeBron also showed me something.....besides his two airballs. his last assist to wade was impossible, wade has incredible hands.

so we were up 15 and put the scrubs in. Carmelo anthony showed his true face the last few games. No D, all chucking. Kinda like Jefferson. both shouldnt play much anymore. the scrubs let the aussies make the score look decent-er

i see good things with Jefferson out of the starting lineup. Marion is a superior defender, athlete, and most importantly a great rebounder.


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## prjose (Aug 20, 2004)

Marbury got dominated by Carlos Arroyo


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*its gonna take a miracle.*



> Originally posted by <b>sherako</b>!
> I'm also very disappointed in Marbury, he isn't doing anything out there. Just passing idly around the perimeter with a smile on his face, and dribbling like Franchise. Do Knicks fans really have to deal with this guy all of next year? Looks like he hasn't learned ANYTHING from Coach Brown.


I said this over two weeks ago and it still fits. After what happened today, I can say I am tired of defending Marbury from these mob mentality posters, I hope the Knicks send him to the Hawks or something he doesn't have what it takes for the Knicks to win guys.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

the sad truth about marbury is he is not a point guard who makes his teamates better.Frank Williams has a pure point guard mentality.Starbury doesnt.He has terrible clock management..I am sure Zeke is watching this and getting itchy,regardless of what he says...


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

i disagree. nobody would say anything bad about stephon if he was hitting those J's. he took the most shots, but alot of them were last second shot clock shots. he hasnt been dominating the ball, just looking for the open man and if not he just swings it around. he cant penetrate a zone by himself, nobody can, so you cant blame him for that.

i dont think isiah has any problem. the nets didnt have a big problem when Kidd stunk it up and got outplayed by Bibby last summer. its a completely different game.

i still think marbury stinks as a point guard in the nba, but hes not that bad in the olympics. and hes good for the team were building around him, so him dominating the ball here wont be that bad since nobody else can really create for themselves except 2 or 3 guys, and those guys could just hang out at the three point line anyway waiting for an open J.

our offense is basically give the ball to allan through some screens for a jumper, isolate allan, let marbury drive to score or dish off or kick out, pick and roll with marbury and kurt, and the play that should be used more is give the ball to tim thomas in the post..
^^^thats basically our entire offense, and its fine with stephon running the show. i have no problem at all. 

isiahs building the team so it doesnt expose marburys weaknesses.


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## Pat13nt1y Wa1t1ng (Feb 8, 2003)

this is off-topic , but was Paul Pierce invited to play for the team?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> isiahs building the team so it doesnt expose marburys weaknesses.


great....like making his teammates better???

though i will give him a break....he had NO ONE to help out last year on a consistent basis..

Now he has a training camp with TT,JC ,Naz,Vin and Sweets

It may make all the difference...Just hope he doesnt wear down after the olympics and all


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## nickrock23 (Mar 28, 2004)

i agree with u on everything except boozer. he hasnt played that bad. i've watched every game, even the exibition tour.
this is how i rate who has helped the team most

#1 duncan
#2 odom
#3 wade
#4 lebron
#5 iverson
#6 boozer
#7 stoudamire
#8 melo
#9 marion
#10 marbury
#11 jefferson

okafor no PT


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## nickrock23 (Mar 28, 2004)

richard jefferson is the worst ever. the starting 5 should be wade/iverson/bron or melo/odom/duncan

the first squad is awful. they always are in a whole when wade and booze come in. then they put in bron, they start running, and we go up. then we fold late in the game when the starters are back in. larry brown, it took him 7 games to bench jefferson? larry is not a good fit for this team. 
carmelo has a good jumper but a bad attitude? well richard has a good attitude but a bad jumper. the country wants a gold medal not a team that smiles and sucks.


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## Rollydog (Jan 24, 2004)

You guys are all stupid bias idiots. Do you know that Jefferson led the team in 3 point shooting % during the exhibition round (50%) and during the NBA reg season (66.4%). He played two horrible games, yes, but has bounced back remarkably well, shooting 9/12 (4-6 from downtown) in the last two games. Remember his first game against the Pistons where he shot 1-12, and then went on to average 25 for the rest of the series? 

You guys are completely lame. Why do I even bother arguing with a bunch of depressed Knick fans?

The Richard Jefferson is a horrible jumpshooter thing is getting old. Whats funny is that even with his two horrible games, his percentages are far better than Marbury's.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

This has nothing to do with three point shooting.

You know why the Dream Teams won convingly? We were always dominant inside. The original team had

Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
Larry Bird
Christian Laettner

Combined they have about 7 MVPs and 50 all-star selections or so.

We now have
Tim Duncan
Lamar Odom
Amare Stoudemire
Carlos Boozer
Shawn Marion
Emeka Okafor

After Duncan, the only one who was an all-star was Marion, ONCE. The US won with FG% back then. Barkley has the all-time FG% record, I think he hit around 70% of his FGs. Everybody on the entire team shot over 50% except for 2 people, Laettner, and some guy named Michael Jordan. Most of the big men shot 60%.

If the team had just one of the following players supporting Duncan: Shaq, KG, Jermaine O'Neal, or even Webber, it wouldn't be a contest.

The team also had the 2 best assist men to ever play the game, Magic and Stockton at PG. This team has 4 SGs running the point, Iverson, Marbury, Lebron, and Wade. You need to set people up for easy scores if you want a good FG%. What's sad is that this olympic team probably would have taken Jamal Crawford over Kirk Hinrich if it had a chance.


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## nickrock23 (Mar 28, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rollydog</b>!
> You guys are all stupid bias idiots. Do you know that Jefferson led the team in 3 point shooting % during the exhibition round (50%) and during the NBA reg season (66.4%). He played two horrible games, yes, but has bounced back remarkably well, shooting 9/12 (4-6 from downtown) in the last two games. Remember his first game against the Pistons where he shot 1-12, and then went on to average 25 for the rest of the series?
> 
> You guys are completely lame. Why do I even bother arguing with a bunch of depressed Knick fans?
> ...


jefferson did not shoot 66.4% from 3 pt last season, more like 36%, and 27% in the playoffs, and 23% career. he doesnt even shoot alot of 3's, like 1 or 2 a game. besides kidd makes the 3's that count in the end. kidd could be 0-10 but with 3 seconds left, i want him taking the 3 pointer.
as far as his olympic fg% he had an awful exibition tour, and started the prelims 3-16, and 0-7. thats puts him about 12 for 35 which is about 33%. not too good considering a rookie guard(wade) is shooting over 50%.
and i have nets season tix , im a net fan myself so im really not biased. he's good at penetrating and getting to the line, where he has mastered missing big free throws into an art form. how many did he miss in the finals vs. SA? i lost count but i know he missed 3 in a row against lithuania. and dont forget his pass into a crowd of lith players with no USA players in the TV screen at 1 minute left down 1. 

as far as marbury, that's all you're right about. he's done just as much damage as jefferson.


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## Rollydog (Jan 24, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>nickrock23</b>!
> 
> 
> jefferson did not shoot 66.4% from 3 pt last season, more like 36%, and 27% in the playoffs, and 23% career. he doesnt even shoot alot of 3's, like 1 or 2 a game. besides kidd makes the 3's that count in the end. kidd could be 0-10 but with 3 seconds left, i want him taking the 3 pointer.
> ...


You're right, he shoots 36.6% instead of 66.6%. I made a typing error, sorry. 

Again, everyone has bad nights, RJ had 2. Since then he's 9-12 from the field. 

He missed two 3 pointers vs Lith, made 3. Made 1 three in one attempt vs Angola.

During the exhibition games Jefferson was the top 3 point shooter on the team. He shot 4-8, Iverson 8-17, Melo 4-17. 

Here is a little somthing about what RJ did during the reg season:


Since Janurary of last season RJ was making close to a 3 pointer per game at a very solid percentage. In April he shot the three at an amazing 67%.http://www.nba.com/playerfile/richard_jefferson/season_splits.html


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Marbury has sucked, I have no intention to defend him, but I will say one thing, of all the players on Team USA, he may come out of his olympic experience with his game most altered and improved. He's really begun to step up his D in the last two games and giving the ball up very early in the clock with very little dribbling.

What faults he does have in his game, and there are several, I don't think will continue to fall under the heading of "selfish" in the future.

I biitched about him going over there and the injury risk, but in his case I'm now very glad he got to spend some time under coach Brown and play with guys better than himself.


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## nickrock23 (Mar 28, 2004)

hopefully stephon does learn something there. games in 6 hours

lets go USA!!!


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

steph played decently against spain....

but seriously, we cant expect him to hit 6 treys every game. we still have problems getting duncan the ball in the zone and defending the three pointer. the spanish team wasnt that good in threes, and our next opponent will be.


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## nickrock23 (Mar 28, 2004)

marbury was insane. some defensive lapses, but he also made a huge steal in crunch time. he was easily our MVP today. 8 of 11 from 3pt land, set an american point record in olympic play,he was due!
jefferson hit his first 2 treys then didnt make a shot for the rest of the game. scrub


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## nickrock23 (Mar 28, 2004)

im in a room with 50 traders at work and people are calling for RJ's head. this dude is the worst. no defense at all, every shot he takes turns into a fast break the other way. he missed his guy, duncan had to help and gets his fourth foul. just awful he should be working at the snack bar. they take him out, we go from down 16 to down 10 in 1 minute.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

I don't think for a minute that ANY of these players has learned something by playing in the olympics. 

Marbury is an 8 year pro, he's set in his ways. Same for Iverson. The olympics didn't change Carmelo Anthony. He cried and cried about being left off the team, and when he got there, he continuted crying as if he expected to start. Nevermind that there were better players at his position they took him ahead of (Pierce, Artest).

Does anybody think Lebron has changed at all by playing in the Olympics? He has amazing athleticism, which seems to be key in the NBA these days, but I think it's clear that Dwyane Wade is the more talented and complete player.

Maybe it has helped Wade. Playing with Duncan may help him adjust to playing with Shaq.

Did the Olympics help Boozer or Amare? Maybe they learned a post move or two to bring home, who knows.

The only player who may have legimately learned something was Emeka Okafor, who hardly stepped foot on the court. He witnessed first hand how talented but selfish teammates don't win. He saw how teams with low talent play real basketball, which he can bring home to the Bobcats, who are the closest thing to a Euro talent team in the league (actual Europeans notwithstanding).


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

i agree that they learned nothing.

none of these guys are gonna come back here with different styles of play or any different kind of attitude.

and even worse, they have to play Lithuania again tomorrow, and theres a good chance they wont even get a medal.

but,those refs really stink. One play marbury gets backflipped, no call. Later in the game, Marbury smacks a guy in the eye, who is a horrible free throw shooter, and no call. Duncan fouled out on a moving screen,which apparently is legal unless your jersey says USA. Oh and the 4 point play where wade blew air at Manu.

i saw on espn classic a week ago about one of the 70s us teams i believe, and the refs gave the russians about 3 chances to score the winning basket. they kept giving them chances til they finally made it. that silver medal was never claimed by our players. theres no doubt in my mind the referees of today still have that mentality. Especially since one was from Spain, the country who has the pissed coach from Browns timeout.

still,you cant blame the refs, you have to blame the selfish players who didnt come. I dont get why last year there when all these guys commited to coming they had no problems with terrorism or whatever, but when the real olympics came they backed out. they all talked about avenging the world championships team, but they just made it worse. look at how we pummeled teams last year.

2003 USA RESULTS (10-0)


USA 110 Brazil 76
USA 111 Dominican Rep. 73
USA 98 Venezuela 69
USA 113 Virgin Islands 55
USA 111 Canada 71
USA 94 Argentina 86
USA 96 Mexico 69
USA 91 Puerto Rico 65
USA 87 Puerto Rico 71
*USA 106 Argentina 73*

see, we killed argentina last year, and their probably gonna win the gold. So the people who say "the gap is closing," no not really.


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## 22ryno (Mar 17, 2003)

Talent doesn't meen everything. You need to play as a cohesive unit as well. This team was lacking to three major areas team defense, shooting, and vocal leadership. I do thank the players who sacrificed to go over there because they are champions to me.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I don't know what you guys expect these players to learn in a few weeks over there. But I think the lessons were reinforced that we learned from the Pistsons this year, that hustle, chemistry, a balanced squad, defensive integrity, playing within the rules, etc, beat hype and all-stars and a bum rushed squad without adequate gel time.

I'm not of the opinion that Team USA has struggled because all the guys on that team are too selfish and spoiled. Part of what has held them back is a desire to be deferencial to their teammates and not try to take over a game. 

They've struggled because most of them are second bests or less, many have little playoff experience, many have games ill suited to FIBA rules, they've had little time to acclimate to FIBA rules, and little time to acclimate to each other.

Seriously, add one pure PG, one pure shooter, and one pure center, and give them one more month of practice and preliminaries and they'd rule.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> USA 110 Brazil 76
> USA 111 Dominican Rep. 73
> USA 98 Venezuela 69
> USA 113 Virgin Islands 55
> ...


Other than Argentina, none of these teams was considered a medal threat, and only one other team played in the Olympics (Puerto Rico). You also only mention the blowout, instead of the other game - the US's smallest margin of victory that year. Last year's US team was a lot better, so clearly Argentina is the real deal. I don't doubt that Ginobili has improved since then either. The US is 2-2 against Argentina over the last 3 years.



> Seriously, add one pure PG, one pure shooter, and one pure center, and give them one more month of practice and preliminaries and they'd rule.


Add only one of those, and they likely win the gold.

The problem is, there's a shortage of those in the NBA now.

TOP NBA PGs
J Kidd
B Davis
S Marbury
S Cassell
S Francis
S Nash
M Bibby
G Payton
A Miller
C Billups
G Arenas
J Terry
D Wade
Js Williams
B Barry
B Jackson
N Van Exel
D Stoudamire
T Parker
K Hinrich

Now take away the guys that can't play for the US, either due to injury or nationality, OR turned down the opportunity
J Kidd - Injury (all-nba 1st)
S Cassell - Injury (all-nba 2nd)
S Nash - Canada
M Bibby - Turned down
B Jackson - Injury
T Parker - France

The team took
S Marbury - shoot first
D Wade - shoot first

And passed up
B Davis - shoot first
S Francis - shoot first
G Payton - shoot first
A Miller - pass first
C Billups - shoot first
G Arenas - shoot first
J Terry - shoot first
J Williams - pass first
B Barry - pass first
N Van Exel - shoot first
D Stoudamire - pass first
K Hinrich - pass first

I think Andre Miller, Brent Barry, and even Kirk Hinrich would have been better choices for this team than Carmelo Anthony or Lebron James. Barry and Hinrich can also shoot, which is an added bonus. All 3 can play defense, and run the offense. Didn't Miller play on the 2002 team?

Then there's top 3pt shooters

P Stojakovic
R Allen
M Redd
A Houston
S Nash
B Barry
A Peeler
P Garrity
M Bibby
R Miller
V Lenard
D Nowitzki
S Cassell
J Terry
E Jones
C Mobley
W Person
J Barry
K Hinrich
M Finley
R Lewis
V Carter
K Kittles
M Miller
D Wesley

Guys to remove from list
P Stojakovic - Serbia (all-nba 2nd)
R Allen - Turned down
A Houston - Injured
S Nash - Canada
P Garrity - Injured
M Bibby - Turned down
D Nowitzki - Germany
S Cassell - Injured
V Carter - Turned down

M Redd (all-nba 3rd)
B Barry
R Miller
V Lenard
J Terry
E Jones
C Mobley
K Hinrich
M Finley
R Lewis
A Peeler
W Person
J Barry
K Kittles
M Miller
D Wesley

Obviously not taking Redd was a mistake, but after him there is a significant talent dropoff. The best shooters are guys like Lenard, Barry, Peeler, etc, they are guys who can shoot and nothing else. After Redd, I think Lenard, Reggie, Jones, or Finley would have been good choices. Lenard WAS the 3pt champ this year, and looking at how bad this team was at 3pt shooting, he'd have looked like an all-star. I would have taken Reggie ahead if he were interested, because he is the veteran, does a bit more than Lenard, and has been here before.

And did you notice that NONE of these guys were on the team? Or that Allan Houston is probably the 3rd best american shooter (further emphasizing his importance to NY)?

Big Men
T Duncan
K Garnett
S O’Neal
C Webber
D Nowitzki
J O’Neal
E Brand
B Wallace
K Martin
A Walker
L Odom
K Malone
Y Ming
A Stoudemire
P Gasol
Z Randolph
B Miller
R Wallace
D Marshall
M Camby
C Boozer
E Dampier

K Garnett - Turned down (all-nba first, MVP)
S O’Neal - Turned down (all-nba first)
C Webber - Injured
D Nowitzki - Germany
J O’Neal - Injured (all-nba 2nd)
B Wallace - Turned down (all-nba 2nd)
K Malone - Injured
Y Ming - China (all-nba 3rd)
P Gasol - Spain

Guys taken
T Duncan (all-nba 1st)
L Odom
A Stoudemire
C Boozer

Guys left off
E Brand
K Martin
A Walker
Z Randolph
B Miller
R Wallace
D Marshall
M Camby
E Dampier

Randolph and Wallace have image problems, while Martin, Camby, and Dampier likely would have declined due to free agency. You could argue that the team could have taken Brand or Miller, but I don't think either would have made a difference. Let's just say the US is lucky Duncan is a US citizen, and doesn't play for his native Virgin Islands, or the US might not have even made it into the medal rounds.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I am proud of Marbury. He showed some guts during these Olympics.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> Add only one of those, and they likely win the gold.
> 
> The problem is, there's a shortage of those in the NBA now.


I appreciate the work you put itnot that, it's good to see it laid out like that. But As you say, probably only one of those things need be done. 

First thing is to give the team more practice time. The players need to acclimate to each other and the rules.

Second, just swap two or three players. 

PG: 
As much as I like Wade he's not a smart PG. Of all the shoot first PGs he may be the most suited to make the leap to SG, were it not for his limited shooting range (so them lets say Francis is best suited). And as limited as Stephs game may be, of the shoot first PGs he is still one of the better play makers. I think Bibby is probably the best comprimise in the game new between a scoring and playmaking PGs. But Steph may be second to him, but with a greater emphasis on scoring. 

But all this is a digression from the point that Wade was a really bad choice for backup PG. Give me almost anyone off your alternate list over him. A. Miller, Payton, J Williams, Hinrich, would all have been fine alternatives as would others.

BTW, Stoudamire is pass first?

Shooters:
Again, so many better options. In fact, even given who we had, if Brown started Marion throughout with Lebron as his backup, with RJ on the bench, we'd have been much better off (RJs one good game not withstanding).

As for the other choices, I'll just go with yours, anyone would have helped. Hell Kareem Rush or Kyle Korver would have helped, though veterans would be preferred. Mobley might have been a nice choice, though his shot can be suspect too.

Big man:
This is the greatest area of dropoff. I thought all of Duncan, Odom (I'm starting to love this guy), Boozer were all good choices, but give me Damp, Rasheed, or Brand over Amare any day.

But you're right, when you take away all the ineligible players you get something like what we got. Unless our best players are willing to go over then we need to approach things differently. Maybe more internationa exhibition games need to be conducted in the offseason, maybe the NBA needs to adopt some of the FIBA rules, or vice versa, longer practice time before the games, use some NBA officials in the olympics. There are lots of things that could be done better and I'm sure they will be for '08.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> I am proud of Marbury. He showed some guts during these Olympics.


Yeah, after a slow start he redeemed himself. Off the top of my head, without looking at stats and box scores, I'd say our guys played best in this order:

Duncan
Odom
Marion/Boozer (roughly tied)
Iverson/Steph (roughly tied)
Lebron
Wade
Jefferson/Amare
Melo
Okafor

But I could be dissuaded by a good argument, anyone see it differently?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> There are lots of things that could be done better and I'm sure they will be for '08.


The main thing, is just getting the top NBA players to actually care.

1992
5 all-nba 1st team
4 all-nba 2nd team

1996
4 all-nba 1st team
4 all-nba 2nd team
4 all-nba 3rd team

2000
3 all-nba 1st team
1 all-nba 2nd team
1 all-nba 3rd team

2004
1 all-nba 1st team

When you only have 1 player from an all-nba team playing on your team, that should say something. Especially since there are other international teams with just as many. China had Yao (3rd team), Germany has Dirk (2nd team), and Serbia's chances were killed when Peja Stojakovic (2nd team) declined.

1st team
C Shaq (declined because Phil Jackson wasn't coach)
F Duncan 
F Garnett (declined because of security)
G Kobe (declined because of court issues)
G Kidd (declined because of injury)

2nd team
C Wallace (declined)
F Jermaine (declined because of injury)
F Stojakovic (plays for Serbia, declined)
G McGrady (declined because of security)
G Cassell (declined because of injury)

3rd team
C Yao (plays for China)
F Dirk Nowitzki (plays for Germany)
F Ron Artest
G Michael Redd
G Baron Davis

Artest says he would have played, which makes the selection of Melo over him very questionable. I think Redd's 3rd team selection was a bit of a fluke, because he was selected over Paul Pierce, Stephon Marbury, Ray Allen, Steve Francis, and Rip Hamilton. When Ray Allen and Rip Hamilton declined, clearly he was the best shooter available, and it was a mistake not to take him. Why would you change direction and go for Melo, rather than the next best shooter?

http://www.hoopsanalyst.com/goodman22.htm

Only 1 of the top 10 players in the league was on the team this year. Only 4 of the top 25 were on the team. 9 of the top 25 declined or were injured. 5 of the top 25 play for other countries (something I highly doubt happened in 1992).

Rankings for players on the team
2. Duncan
12. Iverson
16. Odom
22. Marbury
26. Boozer
28. Jefferson
29. Amare
32. Marion
33. Lebron
46. Wade
48. Melo

U.S. Declined/Injured
1. Garnett
3. Shaq
4. Jermaine
5. McGrady
6. Kobe
9. Cassell
10. Kidd
13. Carter
23. Allen
30. Wallace
39. Rip Hamilton
43. Malone
44. Harpring
49. Mashburn
55. Bibby

Not Invited
11. Baron
14. Brand
15. Martin
18. Randolph
20. Pierce
21. Billups
24. Artest
27. Marshall
31. Webber
34. Rasheed
35. Dampier
38. Francis
40. B Miller
41. Maggette
42. Abdur-Rahim
45. Redd
50. J Rich
51. Jones
53. Camby
56. A Miller
57. Magloire
58. Van Horn
60. Hughes
61. Payton
62. Kenny Thomas
63. Arenas
64. Lewis
65. A Harrington
67. Crawford
68. B Jackson
69. Tinsley
70. Swift
71. Posey
72. Jamison
73. Mobley
74. Terry
75. Robinson
76. Walker
77. Sprewell
78. B Barry
79. J Williams
80. Dalembert
81. Rose
83. Stoudamire
84. S Jackson
85. Kurt Thomas
86. Cardinal
87. Bosh
88. Ostertag
89. Finley
90. R Davis
91. J Smith
92. Q Rich
93. P Brown
94. Claxton
95. D Anderson
96. Kittles
97. Sura
99. M Rose
100. R Miller

China
7. Yao

Russia
8. Kirilenko

Spain
17. Gasol

Germany
19. Dirk

Serbia
25. Stojakovic (DNP)
82. Divac (DNP)

Argentina
36. Ginobili

Lithuania
37. Ilgauskas

France
47. Parker

Turkey
52. Okur
98. Turkoglu

Puerto Rico
54. Arroyo

Canada
59. Nash

Slovenia
66. Nesterovic


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> The main thing, is just getting the top NBA players to actually care.


That is a huge part of the story, but that is the easy way out. I don't think our best is required. We lost to teams we had more talent than, like Puerto Rico. The Lakers, with 2 1st team all-NBA players lost to the Pistons with only 1 2nd team all-NBA player. And Argentina won it all with Manu, who is ranked #36, beating Yao #7, Kirilenko #8, Gasol #17, Dirk # 19, and Duncan #2.

So sure, filling the roster with all-NBA players might allow us to show up and practice for a week and sweep, but that's the lazy route. I still think this years team could have won it with more preparation and the addition of a shooter and/or perimeter defenders and/or and another solid center.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*No offense...*

but I think most of you are completely missing the point. The NBA is not a place to find the best basketball players in the world, anymore. It is a place to find the most amazing athletes that happen to play basketball. Fact is, most NBA players don't think the game very well and they are ineffective when they don't have the ball alot...which they usually do..because that is what the league has become. It's a league of isolation..one on one..and the flamboyant play coupled with wrestling on defense. Showtime is rewarded, fundamentals are not. What we have now is a far cry from the ball I watched up untill the last several years. The Lakers and Celts were really the last teams that played team ball. Jordan's Bulls less so and Shaq and Kobes lakers the bottom rung of fundamental team basketball. Maybe the Piston title will turn things around, we'll see. For those that say they would rather have what we have now, I feel sorry for you. The game used to have both. The good Dr. and David Thompson soaring and dunking over everyone...the Iceman 'finger rollin'...Tiny dishin and swishin...it was a much better game.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> but I think most of you are completely missing the point. The NBA is not a place to find the best basketball players in the world, anymore. It is a place to find the most amazing athletes that happen to play basketball. Fact is, most NBA players don't think the game very well and they are ineffective when they don't have the ball alot...


Sorry, but I'll take Jason Kidd over any international guard in the world. And I'll take Kevin Garnett over any international big man in the world too.

And no, it's not because they're "athletic".


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*wow.....*

Two players....and to me Kidd is debatable in the International game. Garnett is a complete player, no doubt, but Kidd is a weak shooter that would find zones troublesome since they are designed by nature to shut off penetration and limit low post touches. Garnett is also the best big man in the NBA, and along with Duncan are head and shoulders above the rest. Even Duncan had his problems in the forum played at the Olympics. Since I never said that EVERY SINGLE player in the NBA is basketball dumb and incomplete as far as skills, your remarks serve no real purpose as far as disproving what I said. Players like Kidd aren't even the best in college.

Kidd is unmatched in the open court but in a half-court set, he loses much of his effectiveness, (see last years Piston series)

Finally...I know there are more than a few players that have all around skills but among them there are a great many that cannot operate effectively when playing as just a part of a team and not the focal point.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*Re: wow.....*



> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> Kidd is unmatched in the open court but in a half-court set, he loses much of his effectiveness, (see last years Piston series)


He still took the Pistons to 7 games, while not being good in the half court set like you said. He would've definitely helped the USA team with his defense and passing if he was healthy. I don't see Arroyo + Jasikevicius going off for 30 on him.



> Finally...I know there are more than a few players that have all around skills but among them there are a great many that cannot operate effectively when playing as just a part of a team and not the focal point.


Just like Charles Barkley said...so many people can't help their teams in other ways besides scoring.


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## nickrock23 (Mar 28, 2004)

no matter how bad some of the guys played, u have to tip your hats to them. they went over there and did something they didnt have to do. i gained alot of respect for all of them as people.
as a net season ticket holder, im really disappointed with RJ as a player. i think he was the biggest part of the "failure" to win gold. im sad that it took larry brown until the final game to only play him 7 minutes. i dont think the lithuania game was the best we played either- just saying without RJ's turnovers and bricks and missed defensive assignments all tourny, we wouldve been better off.
i think wade/melo/bron will come back in 08 and kick butt and bring the gold back home. they are the real future of the NBA, though melo shouldve played ALOT more, the 3 of them did well. they are all kids still.
and yeah the officiating was awful, for both sides, but honestly the americans got the worst of the deal. foreign players are great actors, and u can see it in every sport that involves contact. watching the soccer games, 1/2 of the called fouls were dives, or "flops" in nba terms. there are very few foreign players in the NBA who dont ruitinely flop, one being dirk nowistki. but thats spilled milk, the officiating isnt why we didnt win the gold.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

*Re: No offense...*



> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> but I think most of you are completely missing the point. The NBA is not a place to find the best basketball players in the world, anymore. It is a place to find the most amazing athletes that happen to play basketball. Fact is, most NBA players don't think the game very well and they are ineffective when they don't have the ball alot...which they usually do..because that is what the league has become. It's a league of isolation..one on one..and the flamboyant play coupled with wrestling on defense. Showtime is rewarded, fundamentals are not. What we have now is a far cry from the ball I watched up untill the last several years. The Lakers and Celts were really the last teams that played team ball. Jordan's Bulls less so and Shaq and Kobes lakers the bottom rung of fundamental team basketball. Maybe the Piston title will turn things around, we'll see. For those that say they would rather have what we have now, I feel sorry for you. The game used to have both. The good Dr. and David Thompson soaring and dunking over everyone...the Iceman 'finger rollin'...Tiny dishin and swishin...it was a much better game.


I think you're being overly simplistic here. 

1) You know with our best we can field a team better than any other.

2) You can call our guys "not fundamentally sound", but their guys are by and large one dimensional scorers. Name me one position where the best player in the world is not American? (Since Duncan played for USA and hates FIBA, I think it's fair to consider him American. And if I'm not mistaken, he's from the "U.S." Virgin Islands) Do you really want to tell me Dirk is the best PF, or that Peja is a better all round player than Kobe?

3) Sure if you have rules in place that totally favor perimeter shooting over penetration and post play, then assemble a team of poor shooters and allow them just a couple of weeks to practice against teams that play by those rules all their lives, they will struggle within those rules. Doesn't make our players inferior. There are tennis players who play well on grass but not clay, doesn't make them bad players. Throw the best baseball players together for a month and ask them to learn cricket, then beat the world cricket champs. If they don't will you tell me the US doesn't have the best baseball players, or they aren't fundamentally sound?

4) A lot of the offensive juggernauts you miss so much might have much lose some of their luster against todays defensive structures. You don't think penetrators like Bing or Monroe would suffer against todays zones? And how many of those guys could shoot over 40% from todays 3pt range? And defenses were so weak back then that some of todays scrubs, like Moochie Norris, and not just because of his fro, might have been accomplished starters in the ABA and on weaker NBA teams of that time. Guys like Allan Houston and Ray Allen would still have been stars, but interestingly, they would not have been labeled as one-dimensional. Guys like Iverson would have been looked upon with the same reverence as the likes of Maravich and Monroe, and Vince Carter like King.

5) You cite the Bulls and Lakers as diminishing quality basketball, but it's debatable whether the best of your lifetime could have beaten them. Then you cite the Pistons as turning things around but they were a tough defensive team almost out of the Daley/Riley mould, which is what set us on the course we are now on.

6) We still have teams reminiscent of the style of play of the 70s and 80's, like Dallas, Sacramento, Memphis, and Denver to a certain extent. They are good teams, fun to watch, but not good enough to beat the style of play you disdain.

7) One of the reasons we don't have the "great teams" today like we did back then is league expansion, and a dilution of the talent pool.

8) While there may not be a player in the NBA today who is as good as the BEST in the history of the game, I'd venture to say most icons of the past have their stylistic counter parts in "todays" game. Magic ~ Lebron (And Stockton may have been the best pure PG ever and he's just one year into retirement. And Magic was more of a "today"player anyway, just blessed with a super high IQ). Dr J ~ T-mac/Kobe. Wilt ~ Shaq. Wes Unseld ~ Ben Wallace. Clyde ~ Payton. There surely are no Larry Birds today, though Duncan is not too shabby. 

But I think I make my point: the gods of the past are not really so different from the players today, though the style of play is different. I understand if you like a fast action team that drops a lot of points (Do you like the Mavs? Is a Mavs vs Kings game the height of the season? They are fun to watch, but so much more fun than the rest?), but does that really make them better players? Pick a year out of a hat (that means at random, not the best year in the history of the game, please) from the '60s or '70s and assemble their first team all NBA squad and pit them against one from the last few years. Do you think it's a lock that the former would beat the latter? I don't, in the same way that Isiah's Pistons (who I consider the godfather of todays NBA) were able to beat the '80s Celtics and Lakers. And while it's true that the 2004 Pistons exemplify teamwork, they still won because of their defense - a hallmark of todays NBA - and injuries to their opponents (Kidd, Jermaine, Malone, and perhaps in an indirect way, Cassell)

Would a "todays NBA" team composed of players in their primes, the likes of, say....

Shaq, Duncan, Pierce, MJ, and Stockton

Get blown out by a team of say, Kareem, Elvin Hayes, John Havlicek, Rick Barry and Pete Maravich?

I don't think they would, not if the were coached by a guy like Jerry Sloan, or Larry Brown. I don't think a rational person could reasonably pick a seven game series winner.


And if any of this sounds like a lot of Nationalistic "rah rah" it's not. I'm actually more okay with losing in international play than most, and it's fine by me if foreign players fill needed roles in the NBA. I just don't think Team USA lost because we were outclassed. We could have played those same teams and won with just one of a few tweaks: 1) a slightly different roster, 2) more practice time, 3) if it were under NBA rules and officiating. In fact, I'm not convinced we'd have lost to Argentina or any other as is in a seven game series.

All that said, sure, on the whole it would be best if we allowed players to learn more offensive fundamentals before drafting them and giving them significant franchise roles. And while good jump shooting is at a premium these days, lets not pretend defense, penetration, and good low-post weapons are not fundamentals. There are as many American shooters as there are foreign players proficient in those fundamentals.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Good discussion, Oak..*

I'll get back to you a bit later on this. This, i think, is worthwhile.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Two players....and to me Kidd is debatable in the International game. Garnett is a complete player, no doubt, but Kidd is a weak shooter that would find zones troublesome since they are designed by nature to shut off penetration and limit low post touches.


Holy. Freakin. Crap. Did you even watch Kidd in previous international play?

And it's not all about shooting on the perimeter. Past US teams WERE NOT GOOD SHOOTING TEAMS. That cannot be emphasized enough. BIG MEN WIN INTERNATIONAL BASKETBALL. Look at the top performers in the tournament. Tim Duncan. Pau Gasol. Yao Ming. Luis Scola. Manu Ginobili. Sarunas Jakitisiwhatsits. Gianmarco Pozzecco. Carlos Arroyo. Arvydas Macijauskas. Lazaros Papadopoulos. 3 Cs and 2 PFs, compared with 3 PGs, 2 SGs, and 0 SFs. Of the guards, Ginobili and Arroyo's shooting is considered their WEAKNESS. Other than the 2 Lithuanian guards, nobody on this list is a strong shooter.

Here's some telling stats.
Gasol - .614 FG%
Duncan - .567 FG%
Yao - .556 FG%

1. Who do you think is better at getting the ball into the post? Kidd and Bibby, or a bunch of SGs?

2. Kidd beats the zone when he runs, he starts the break whenever he grabs a rebound, and he forces more turnovers (read: forces more fastbreaks opportunities) than anyone on the in the league. Why do you think the Pistons had a tougher time with the Nets than the Lakers? It sure didn't make a difference if Derek Fisher or Gary Payton was running the point for the Lakers. The best way to beat the zone (or ANY defense for that matter) is not let them play it. 

3. Another thing Kidd or Bibby can do is HIT FREE THROWS. When teams are fouling the US on every fastbreak opportunity, and they're hitting only 66% of their FTs, it's not exactly a winning combo.



> Players like Kidd aren't even the best in college.


Oh yes, because we all know that college is the almighty determining factor in how good you are.

I guess Glenn Robinson > Jason Kidd and Grant Hill.

Speaking of Kidd's college career... man it was horrible.



> From there Cal sizzled, finishing the regular season at 19-8. Jason was the catalyst. *He averaged 13.0 points, 7.7 assists and 4.9 rebounds, established an NCAA freshman record for steals, and became the fifth newcomer in conference history to be named to All-Pac 10.* His fine play earned the Bears a berth in the NCAA Tournament.
> 
> In the first round, *Jason sparked an upset of LSU*. With the score tied at 64-64 in the waning seconds, he converted a twisting lay-up between forward Lenear Burns and center Geert Hammink. Tigers coach Dale Brown tabbed the game-winner the “pretzel shot.” A few days later, *Jason engineered an even bigger shocker over Duke, which was gunning for its third straight national title*. In the game, he bedeviled All-American point guard Bobby Hurley. Kansas later ended Cal’s magical run in the Sweet 16, but thanks to Jason the Bears were back.
> 
> *The first sophomore ever named Pac 10 Player of the Year, he scored 16.7 points and grabbed 6.9 rebounds a game, and topped the nation with 9.1 assists. His total steals (204) and assists (272) broke Kevin Johnson's school records.* He also became the first Cal player to earn First-Team All-America honors since Russ Critchfield in 1968, and was a finalist for the Naismith Award and John Wooden Award.


Looks like players like Kidd ARE the best in college.


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## nickrock23 (Mar 28, 2004)

who is that guy kidding, kidd was a man among boys in college. he was ready for the NBA in highschool.


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## clownskull (Jun 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> id like to keep this isolated in the knicks board, because this topic isnt nice to alot of players
> 
> 1. Who the hell thought of the brilliant idea of starting Richard Jefferson? He played eerily reminiscent of Shandon Anderson. Defensively hes ok, but he didnt wanna shoot, and if he did, you knew it was a brick. Considering Marion is a better defender, AND a better shooter, why the hell was Jefferson starting.......let alone playing. Carmelo and LeBron sshould have had all of this scrubs minutes.
> ...


 -----well, you obviously were not watching the pacers/pistons playoffs. if you would have watched -you would have seen jermaine nearly destroy his knee in that series. he was very injured. NOT BECAUSE OF TERRORISM. that's why.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Bibby, KG, and McGrady were the ones worried about security. O'Neal wanted to go, he played on the 2002 and 2003 team, and was upset that he couldn't go this year.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*You guys amaze me...*

1) Kidd was no monster in college. Period

2) College is a better indicator of how you will fare in the international game because it is more similiar than the NBA is at this time.

3) I never said a zone makes for poor post %...I said it limits touchesand penetration.

4) Do you really think Gasol and Ming get the majority of their points in the post?

5) I already said Kidd is unmatched on the break. Poor defense(team) and rebounding don't allow you to run.

6) If you think that inside play wins the gold medal than you are dumber than dumb. In international ball as well as college ball, it is the guards and perimeter players that make the difference. Without them, guys like Okafor have no chance to win. Why did PR and Italy beatv us? Inside dominance? Dumb. This IS NOT the same or even close to the NBA in style.

7) You guys are living in the past. When talent catches up(which it is), execution and style wins. NBA style doesn't match the international game and we do not execute as well, per se.

8) If the games were played under NBA rules with NBA refs, the USA would have had gold...no doubt....but they weren't.


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## nickrock23 (Mar 28, 2004)

*Re: You guys amaze me...*

4) Do you really think Gasol and Ming get the majority of their points in the post? [/QUOTE]

ur right about everything .. but as far kidd not being a monster ur 1/2 right. no he wasnt a pervis ellison or ralph sampson, but the dude was clearly ready for the NBA and the far and away the best on a decent cal team.

and gasol scores probably 85% of his points in the low post. 10% come at the FT line. 5% from +10 feet out. dont tell me otherwise either i watched every grizzlies game last year. but other than that i agree with u


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I think the figer pointing should be placed squarely on Stu jackson.The guy is an absolute idiot and always has been.

This was quite possibly the worst collection of great athletes from a team perspective...


Why are the Pistons NBA champs?? They have a collection of players who know there roles,execute and play D and understand TEAM...

The Bulls were no different..As good as MJ and Pippen are,that team was sound fundamentally,everyone knew there role and they played great D.You never need 5 prolific scorers.Give me 2 guys who can score,Ben Wallace,Artest,and a zone buster and we can save ourselves future embarrasment.

BBALL is no different than any other sport...Pitching wins in baseball,D wins in football..All Star teams of prolific scorers win All Star games.They dont win the Olympics,and they dont win NBA finals.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> 1) Kidd was no monster in college. Period


Yeah, he merely was the best passer in the nation as a FRESHMAN. And being a finalist for college player of the year as a Sophmore? Total fluke. Kidd was the original Lebron James, thousands of people went to his high school games, and he garnered lots of attention on the west coast. He had NBA level court vision when he was in the 8th grade.

Speaking of college "monsters", maybe you should raise your credibility and actually name some? I mean, other than Derrick Coleman, John Wallace, and Christian Laettner, that is.



> 2) College is a better indicator of how you will fare in the international game because it is more similiar than the NBA is at this time.


It's funny that you say that, because Iverson was a monster in college, and he was horrible in the olympics.



> 3) I never said a zone makes for poor post %...I said it limits touchesand penetration.


Which is the whole point of having a big man. If the Nets had a center better than Jason Collins, do you really think it would matter if they could shoot or not?



> 4) Do you really think Gasol and Ming get the majority of their points in the post?


They got a lot more from 8 feet and in than they do from 20 and out, that's for sure.



> 5) I already said Kidd is unmatched on the break. Poor defense(team) and rebounding don't allow you to run.


It's funny that you're talking about poor rebounding, since the US were BY FAR the best rebounding team in the tournament.



> 6) If you think that inside play wins the gold medal than you are dumber than dumb. In international ball as well as college ball, it is the guards and perimeter players that make the difference. Without them, guys like Okafor have no chance to win. Why did PR and Italy beatv us? Inside dominance? Dumb. This IS NOT the same or even close to the NBA in style.


Ah, I see. Perimeter players. Iverson, Marbury, Wade, and Lebron.

Is that why China won more games than perimeter oriented Serbia? China is a one man team, and guess what, he doesn't play on the perimeter. I mean, since college is like the international game and all, why do you think Marcus Camby got College player of the year over Allen Iverson?



> 7) You guys are living in the past. When talent catches up(which it is), execution and style wins. NBA style doesn't match the international game and we do not execute as well, per se.


It's hard to execute when you DON'T BRING A POINT GUARD. And no, Marbury does not count.



> 8) If the games were played under NBA rules with NBA refs, the USA would have had gold...no doubt....but they weren't.


Duh. Defense in the NBA is trying to undercut a player to draw a charge. People seem to forget that NBA refs are 5 times worse than FIBA refs. There was no Lakers/Kings game 6, no Lakers/Wolves game 3, no Bulls/Knicks game 5, no miracle 3's after the buzzer going off being counted (Samaki Walker, Baron Davis, Reggie Miller) etc at these olympics. There was one game decided by bad reffing, and it was a game that Serbia lost. There were no US games decided by bad officiating.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*re;*

I am not going to bother trying to answer all your baloney but just some.

1) Kidd was a great player in a a weaker era.

2)AI was not a monster in college. I watched him all the time. He was too quick for most college guys(pro too) but never shot well. Georgetown was not very good with him....andhe DID have some help.

3)Gasol and Ming get most of their points outside of 8. There is a big difference between 8 and 20 but yoou ignored that area.

4)USA had more rebounds because they shot so poorly...thus more rebounds...every game as opposed to their opponents who only got to pad the numbers when they played us.

5) some monsters? Please.
Ewing, Mouning, Shaq, Sampson, Hakeem, Magic, Aquire, Bird, Pearl Washington, Bias, and Chris Jackson to name a few. Melo, more recently.

6) Obviously you didn't play much. Execution is required by everyone, not just the pg. Boxing out, proper setting and use of screens, timing, and tons more that the pg has no role in.

7) Camby got player of the year because his team won and he was a better player than AI. Allen could score..nothing more and I watched him plenty. 

8) Ididn't say we had great perimeter players..you did. We were sorely lacking there. Give me Bibby, Allen, and the kid from Duke(current shooting guard) and we eat those guys alive.

9) China is far more than Yao..you are showing your ignorance 
again.

10) I didn't say the officiating was bad. I said it is different. Internation rules and the way they are enforced are different than the NBA's...Duh.

11) Finally...If the Nets had a dominant big guy you can be damn sure they would see a lot more zone because of their lack of shooting.

Rashidi, you are a dumbass. Leave the video games and play some ball. Try researching your claims and back them up.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

i am not even sure what this raging debate is about,but I will say iy once again...The team selection was a JOKE...

USA talent is still head and shoulders above the rest of the world...

But you can not send a bunch of run jump athletes and expect to win..Its not happening against zones...sorry

Whoever sad we sent perimeter players is on the real dream team..We had NO perimeter game...none...

Stu Jackson was,is and always will be an idiot......


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

gary st jean was also on the commitee and he was the GM for the vancouver grizzlies and the golden state warriors.

both great teams while he was there.....


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> gary st jean was also on the commitee and he was the GM for the vancouver grizzlies and the golden state warriors.


that is truly scary....Stu Jackson and garey st jean..Two of the dumbest guys in Bball....Throw layden into the mix and the 3 stooges will have been reunited....

If you take Duncan out of that lineup,which the rules effectively did,that team would be mediocre in the NBA.There isnt one shooter on that team and not one great on the ball defender.


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## nickrock23 (Mar 28, 2004)

must give props for alpha knowing camby was a better college player than AI, but AI was a monster in my opinion. the only guy that could ever tell thompson he wasnt coming out, even with 4 fouls early in the second half!


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> 1) Kidd was a great player in a a weaker era.


I assume we are still in that weak era then, since he is still the best PG in the league.



> 2)AI was not a monster in college. I watched him all the time. He was too quick for most college guys(pro too) but never shot well. Georgetown was not very good with him....andhe DID have some help.


You're right, 25 ppg and .480 fg% as a sophmore. He wasn't a monster, he was a mouse. Maybe you only watched him as a freshman (20 ppg, .390 FG%).



> 4)USA had more rebounds because they shot so poorly...thus more rebounds...every game as opposed to their opponents who only got to pad the numbers when they played us.


The US outrebounded opponents by 10 rpg, by far the biggest margin. If you think those all came on the offensive end, you're crazy. Even if they did come on the offensive end, doesn't that negate the US's poor shooting percent?



> 5) some monsters? Please.
> Ewing, Mouning, Shaq, Sampson, Hakeem, Magic, Aquire, Bird, Pearl Washington, Bias, and Chris Jackson to name a few. Melo, more recently.


*I asked for recent. Not ancient. Bird and Magic played collegiately in the 70s.* All the guys that you named are from the 80s and back. Congrats, you named Shaq and Mourning, who have been in the NBA for over 10 years. So please, I implore you, name someone recent. 



> 6) Obviously you didn't play much. Execution is required by everyone, not just the pg. Boxing out, proper setting and use of screens, timing, and tons more that the pg has no role in.


And? Are you saying the other players failed to do this? Or are you just trying to prove me wrong or something. The team lacked the PG element. They didn't lack players capable of setting screens or boxing out.



> 7) Camby got player of the year because his team won and he was a better player than AI. Allen could score..nothing more and I watched him plenty.


So what you're saying is we should have brought Camby to the Olympics then.



> 9) China is far more than Yao..you are showing your ignorance
> again.


Is that why their point differential was negative 16 ppg (2nd worst to only Angola)? When Yao played huge, they won, when he didn't, they got blown out.



> 11) Finally...If the Nets had a dominant big guy you can be damn sure they would see a lot more zone because of their lack of shooting.


I don't see how they could be zoned any more than they actually are, and the big man would create more open looks for Kittles and Jefferson (who is now a better 3pt shooter than most of the Knick guards)



> Rashidi, you are a dumbass. Leave the video games and play some ball. Try researching your claims and back them up.


I have played basketball for 10 years, fool. I haven't played a basketball video game since February, either. Nice try though.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Lat time*

I'll give you Iverson was better than I remembered in his Soph. year. The rest of your answers are crap, There are no more monsters in college for the simple reason that they go pro so early. Melo is legit...same with James. Garnett would have been, as would have Tmac and Kobe. You are good at twisting things. How much ORGANIZED ball do you play(or have played)? 10 years....lol. My son has played 10 years and knows more than you..and he is 15. He loves your posts. Keep it up, I've never seen him laughing so hard.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Guys,its gonna be a long season,you better pace yourseves..its not even pre season yet.....

And we are going to have a pool where all the Bball pundits put it in writing as to their predictions for our team....

Get ready Rashidi:grinning:


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> And we are going to have a pool where all the Bball pundits put it in writing as to their predictions for our team....


For what it's worth, I just PMed Fordy about giving us one of those thumb tack thingy threads up top for this purpose. Don't know we'll get one, but assuming we do, should we set up a structure to it, like a list of questions to answer (# of wins, ranking in division, final starting line-up, further trades, etc) or just leave it freewheeling and open ended?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

i think the more free wheeling we leave it,the more wiggle room we leave posters for hindsight analysis and monday morning quarterbacking..

we should get a consensus from posters as what the pool should consist of.......

I am looking foward to this,as the proof is in the pudding and the numbers will be there for evryone to see


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

im gonna write up a complete power rankings like i did last year(http://nykfanpage.com/editorials/viewarticle.php?articleid=57#cormega). i was dead wrong last year. i had the Jazz and bucks last and orlando tenth. i mean......they were a playoff team that added Howard and lost old man armstrong. what a big difference armstrong and garrity made. i had the pistons 7th, the lakers first. of course.this was before sheed, so obviously were all gonna be wrong since we cant predict trades. who woulda thought we would have Marbury?

BUT im all for this, im not scared to look stupid in the end.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> im gonna write up a complete power rankings like i did last year(http://nykfanpage.com/editorials/viewarticle.php?articleid=57#cormega).


Damn, you mofos are serious over there. 

Im more than happy to look foolish with my Knicks predictions, but I'll be damned if I'd do it 30 times over with every team in the league. 

But here's to your effort...

:cheers:


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

espn and nba.com were just as wrong as i was. espn had the magic 12th in their preseason power rankings, and the jazz and bucks last too. and i made those august 6th, a month before the preseason


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Gave it 5 mins of thought.

East
1. Pacers
2. Pistons
3. Heat
4. 76'ers
5. Knicks
6. Raptors
7. Nets
8. Magic
9. Bucks
10. Celtics
11. Wizards
12. Cavaliers
13. Bulls
14. Hawks
15. Bobcats

West
1. T'Wolves
2. Spurs
3. Rockets
4. Kings
5. Nuggets
6. Mavericks
7. Grizzlies
8. Lakers
9. Blazers
10. Jazz
11. Suns
12. Hornets
13. Sonics
14. Clippers
15. Warriors

Wow, the east really sucks again. The top 8 in the west would be top 4 or better in the east, and 9-12 would more than likely make at least 8th seed.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Awesome Penny,though i dont know if i want to go thru 30 teams...

dam rashidi,that was fast...You have some very curious rankings in the east...this should be fun


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> espn and nba.com were just as wrong as i was. espn had the magic 12th in their preseason power rankings, and the jazz and bucks last too. and i made those august 6th, a month before the preseason


Hey, don't get me wrong, I was impressed.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

i changed my mind. no way im doing the power rankings again. i dont have the time anymore.

rashidis rankings arent bad at all, the east is pretty much up for grabs. i just dont think the raptors will do much, the central is still tough(theyre still in the central right? with the pistons and pacers?)

we need a plan for our knicks predictions though, a blueprint or something to follow.

maybe something like:
Record
Division ranking
leading scorer
biggest surprise
biggest letdown
player most likely to get injured

and then write why.


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