# Who is Joakim Noah?



## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

http://chicagostadiumsports.blogspot.com/


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

You mention all these hall of fame centers, where are they in today's NBA? By the 1990s standards, sure Noah isn't much, but based on what we have today at that position, he's pretty good at his position. Not elite, but good.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Noah is honestly the most overrated big man in the NBA. He is a product of his high energy and hustle but as evidenced by the past 4 or so seasons, it only last so long. 

The guy is a guaranteed injury risk every season and he starts every season with conditioning issues.

MVP is right though. In any other era Joakim Noah is a below average Center, but in today's watered down league, he is a good center. The era of the dominant big man has been dead for awhile now.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

He's not a Hall of Famer. So?

The rule changes have taken away the effectiveness of trying to run your offense through a Center. Regardless of talent, it just doesn't make sense anymore.

Noah is easily a top 10 center in the league and quite possibly top 5. He gives maximum effort every time he's on the floor and really doesn't deserve any criticism from the Bulls fan base


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Marcus13 said:


> He's not a Hall of Famer. So?
> 
> The rule changes have taken away the effectiveness of trying to run your offense through a Center. Regardless of talent, it just doesn't make sense anymore.
> 
> Noah is easily a top 10 center in the league and quite possibly top 5. He gives maximum effort every time he's on the floor and really doesn't deserve any criticism from the Bulls fan base


Top 5? I don't think so.

Howard
Hibbert
Lopez
Gasol 
Cousins
Drummond

Just off the top of my head.

He is an above average center though. And if he could stay 100% for a significant period of time then I agree he could crack the top 5. Almost every player in the league could stand to play with as much heart and hustle as Noah.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Marcus13 said:


> He's not a Hall of Famer. So?
> 
> The rule changes have taken away the effectiveness of trying to run your offense through a Center. Regardless of talent, it just doesn't make sense anymore.
> 
> Noah is easily a top 10 center in the league and quite possibly top 5. He gives maximum effort every time he's on the floor and really doesn't deserve any criticism from the Bulls fan base


I think it is a fair point that centers are tasked with different things these days than they were back then... defensively Noah is an incredibly versatile player who guards the pick and roll about as well as any C in the league... he can show on the perimeter and stay with guys better than any other C in the league right now and can still hold his own in the paint. That has value, always has had value and always will have value. Offensively he's limited as a scorer but is a good passer and a good ballhandler for a guy his size. 

Is he on the level of a Hakeem Olajuwon or Shaquille O'Neal, other heroes of our childhood... no. Does he have value, yes? I think his current contract is a relatively fair assessment of his value (keep in mind that big men make a ton of money as a rule in the NBA). 

That being said, that blog post was not an attempt at some kind of objective analysis... our options seemed to be Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal on the one hand... and... Bill Laimbeer on the other. Ok... 

On that note - you did watch Bill Laimbeer play, right? Not a lot in common with Noah's game offensively... Noah is a better passer/ballhandler, Laimbeer a much better shooter who had more of a back to the basket game (which isn't saying much) than Noah... I just don't see enough similarity to make that analogy worthwhile. 

The Horace Grant comparison... eh, ok... I think Horace Grant was a pretty damned good player. I'm somewhat comfortable with that from an in-game impact standpoint, though again... those guys are really not very much alike in terms of how they play the game. You couldn't use Grant as a secondary playmaker in the event of a trap, a distributer, etc... and while Noah is a good athlete for his size, he doesn't have the athleticism Grant did (I believe Phil Jackson said Grant was the fastest end to end of the Bulls dolberman defenders), nor can he pick and pop like Grant could. 

Mostly the point of the article seemed to be that Luol Deng isn't Scottie Pippen. OK.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

Gee, Maybe Noah's not a top 5 center. What do we do now?

Noah's a wonderful player. As a center, he plays the P&R as well as any big I've ever seen.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

If Noah played in the 90's, I think he'd be playing PF, not C.

And he'd still be a damn good player, just playing a slightly diff position. 

No reason he couldn't be producing similar to a prime Horace Grant or slightly better. Grant was a hair better at shooting the ball, but Noah is a better passer and smarter all around player. Also better rebounder. Both guys were/are great defensively. (Grant could cover tons of ground in his prime)

Grant also made an all-star team I believe. And was a pretty coveted player which is why the Bulls had to let him go eventually.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

R-Star said:


> Top 5? I don't think so.
> 
> Howard
> Hibbert
> ...


It may not bump Noah into the top 5, but for the record, **** Brook Lopez... I wouldn't trade Noah for him.

Edit to add: I'd also put Noah at least equal to Marc Gasol. I'd also put Anthony Davis (and some others, LMA, etc... I haven't thought of) ahead of him, but we start getting into the PF v. C debate


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

R-Star said:


> Top 5? I don't think so.
> 
> Howard
> Hibbert
> ...


Kanter will be there next season as well.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Speaking of Noah - his averages this January (basically post Deng trade, we're 7-2 this month): 14.7 ppg 14 rpg, 5.1 apg, 2.1 bpg.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Dornado said:


> It may not bump Noah into the top 5, but for the record, **** Brook Lopez... I wouldn't trade Noah for him.
> 
> Edit to add: I'd also put Noah at least equal to Marc Gasol. I'd also put Anthony Davis (and some others, LMA, etc... I haven't thought of) ahead of him, but we start *getting into the PF v. C debate*


That's why I left some guys off. 

As far as Lopez, I agree 100%. I've never liked his game. I only added him because some like to act like hes a top 3 center.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Kanter will be there next season as well.


Possibly. Hes wildly inconsistent right now. Some games hes the dominant force in the paint, other games hes a no show. 

I hope you're right. The league could use more traditional big men.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I really wonder what makes fans hate a guy like Noah. What is the beef with him? He's not Demarcus Cousins? All the guy does is go out on the court and spill his guts out for the team just about every night. What Noah has, he gives you pretty much every single night. He does not have a bloated contract, in fact his pay seems quite commensurate with his abilities.

It's funny how the guy sucks, but that it seems to go as Gospel that you could trade him for a hall of fame center any time that you wanted.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Diable said:


> I really wonder what makes fans hate a guy like Noah. What is the beef with him? He's not Demarcus Cousins? All the guy does is go out on the court and spill his guts out for the team just about every night. What Noah has, he gives you pretty much every single night. He does not have a bloated contract, in fact his pay seems quite commensurate with his abilities.
> 
> It's funny how the guy sucks, but that it seems to go as Gospel that you could trade him for a hall of fame center any time that you wanted.


Most of the guys in here are saying Noah is one of the better centers in the league though. Its mainly just one poster complaining here.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I hated Noah in college because he's a gator, but like his former teammate Al Horford, I've come around to him in the pros. He's the kind of guy that you want playing on your side.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> You mention all these hall of fame centers, where are they in today's NBA? By the 1990s standards, sure Noah isn't much, but based on what we have today at that position, he's pretty good at his position. Not elite, but good.


But again, you note the position... seeking the implications people would derive from a good "center" when all of those desirable characteristics of the implied are about back to the basket and/or glass cleaners. He's neither. He's a big, glorified front to the basket forward a la laimbeer.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

thebizkit69u said:


> Noah is honestly the most overrated big man in the NBA. He is a product of his high energy and hustle but as evidenced by the past 4 or so seasons, it only last so long.
> 
> The guy is a guaranteed injury risk every season and he starts every season with conditioning issues.
> 
> MVP is right though. In any other era Joakim Noah is a below average Center, but in today's watered down league, he is a good center. The era of the dominant big man has been dead for awhile now.


But he's not gonna hurt the heat like a center like hibbert. The heats biggest problem is guarding the post. The implicating being "oh we have a five." He has no offensive post game.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> But he's not gonna hurt the heat like a center like hibbert. The heats biggest problem is guarding the post. The implicating being "oh we have a five." He has no offensive post game.


And how many series has Hibbert won against the Heat? And how did Dirk Nowitzki win a series against them?


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Marcus13 said:


> He's not a Hall of Famer. So?
> 
> The rule changes have taken away the effectiveness of trying to run your offense through a Center. Regardless of talent, it just doesn't make sense anymore.
> 
> Noah is easily a top 10 center in the league and quite possibly top 5. He gives maximum effort every time he's on the floor and really doesn't deserve any criticism from the Bulls fan base


Regardless of position... players with post game and size haven't been giving Miami trouble? (Dirk, Duncan, hibbert)... none of those guys are even Ewing good btw.

They did change the rules... and Miami decided to leave themselves so light in the ass and bad that you still can hurt them that way in the post. Do any of you rule change loving guys realize that? Or did you think those three teams beat them by attacking Lebron?


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> And how many series has Hibbert won against the Heat? And how did Dirk Nowitzki win a series against them?


Lol Indiana's best player was the fourth best player in the series. Be careful here. You don't have "guess what I said a year ago" in this one.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> Regardless of position... players with post game and size haven't been giving Miami trouble? (Dirk, Duncan, hibbert)... none of those guys are even Ewing good btw.
> 
> They did change the rules... and Miami decided to leave themselves so light in the ass and bad that you still can hurt them that way in the post. Do any of you rule change loving guys realize that? Or did you think those three teams beat them by attacking Lebron?


Dirk is no more of a post player than Love is.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

You guys are all making good arguments as to why joakim Noah is not bad like Anthony Bonner ... zero arguments as to why you attempt to win a title by casting him in his current role.

Its like the 92 blazers... didn't win Jack shit but you could make arguments all day as to why you should leave Buck Williams and Terry Porter alone!!

Lmao Noah in his new role as George mcfly. Hilarious


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> D
> irk is no more of a post player than Love is.


Without looking Dirk in 2011 is worse at fg% than love?

And Miami was worse in 11.

You don't need hakeem in the post Miami can't guard it. Noah has loves post game?


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> You guys are all making good arguments as to why joakim Noah is not bad like Anthony Bonner ... zero arguments as to why you attempt to win a title by casting him in his current role.
> 
> Its like the 92 blazers... didn't win Jack shit but you could make arguments all day as to why you should leave Buck Williams and Terry Porter alone!!
> 
> Lmao Noah in his new role as George mcfly. Hilarious


So Joakim Noah sucks so much, he's sucky enough that he'll get us a HOF talent. Logic.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> Without looking Dirk in 2011 is worse at fg% than love?
> 
> And Miami was worse in 11.
> 
> You don't need hakeem in the post Miami can't guard it. Noah has loves post game?


I'd say they're close. Love probably hovers in the 46-47% range while Dirk may be in the 49-50% range.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

I love how everyone has to be matched up with an early 90's equivalent. The continued obsession with that era is hysterical.

BUT WHICH GROWING PAINS CHARACTER IS JOAKIM NOAH GUYS?


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

jnrjr79 said:


> I love how everyone has to be matched up with an early 90's equivalent. The continued obsession with that era is hysterical.
> 
> BUT WHICH GROWING PAINS CHARACTER IS JOAKIM NOAH GUYS?


DeMarcus Cousins=Hakeem Olajuwon, Roy Hibbert=Shaquille O'Neal, Andre Drummond=Patrick Ewing. The inability to understand that the game has evolved is hysterical. Chris Bosh won the title with Miami as the starting C, is he now Bill Russell, or is that comparison invalid since that wasn't from the 1990s?


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> So Joakim Noah sucks so much, he's sucky enough that he'll get us a HOF talent. Logic.


It's actual a reversal of what I've heard here for so long. See, that's not what came first. What came first was, "Joakim Noah, one of the best centers in the league. But... nobody would give you Haywoode Workman for him in a trade."

You realize that a couple years ago on this forum, and I believe even last summer, the consensus wasn't that Noah couldn't get you Cousins.. it was, "why would you want Cousins for Noah." 

It's funny how things change though, isn't it. Another thing that's funny. Human nature. When you have a bunch of people accusing one person of doing something, usually, they know they do it even worse, but they're the group, and have strength in numbers. So they can decide who the bad guy is. You claim I don't give you and others here a chance. You give me a chance? You act like I could be discussing something from a belief system that you may want to examine more before you throw blankets on what I think?

Ever stopped to think that Noah could have value, just not to us if we want to win a ring? See, there's winning a ring, and then there is something that Paxson did that actually pays in luxury boxes and other revenue just as well.. using the average fans misunderstanding of the game to create the PERCEPTION that you're going to win a ring. Then slap plausible deniability on that, "well, for now, we do have a great record.. you can't really say we WON'T win yet, can you? You might want to keep paying to find out, right?"

So, if you're the Bulls, you've said Noah is a 3rd option. Let's pause here.. Does that mean, because you and I think that, that all GMs think that? And that no GMs buy the idea that he's "one of the best centers in the league." People here thought we were a legit top contender for the title with Noah in a secondary role. Reality would have mocked that idea, but, are you saying no GMs buy that?

Here's where Noah's value is. There are Cubs fans with dollars everywhere. Cubs fans (think mentality) took this board over and realgm over when Paxson was hired. They think, as Les Grobstein thinks, that first you become a respectable team and then you climb the ladder to being champions. So that, if you're a 35 win team with a star, and you get Noah and win 48, well... logically, that must mean you're going to win 61 the following year, right? If some star who will never be a title-worthy #1 gets Joakim Noah and goes from the first round to conference finals losers 4-1, then, that must mean that if you add one more year, you'll get the same improvement and win the Finals, right?

They don't realize that young teams don't always get better. If they have talent they have not tapped into, ridiculous talent, and then they tap into it.. yes, they can get a lot better. See... Pippen and Grant in 1989 and then what happened over the next few years. That was amazing, blinding talent (at least in Scottie's case), that he had not yet converted into actual higher level play. 

To me, it's very reasonable to watch Kobe and Shaq get swept off the floor in 1999 and then see what happened two years later.

To chooch fans with a Cub mentality, ANY TIME "my team" gets swept off the floor in the conference finals with a young team, they will become the 2000 Lakers. 

To me, that very rarely happens. Young, promising teams without a lot of convertible elite talent far more often become the Cavs or Blazers of the 90s than they do the Lakers or Bulls. You may realize that. There are many fans who don't.

Cousins is better to pair with Rose and win a championship because you're banking on convertible talent.

But, just cause Cousins is REALISTICALLY better here doesn't mean it's happening in Sacramento, where he does not have Derrick Rose, Jimmy Butler, Taj Gibson and Tom Thibodeaux. 

In Sacramento, they're 14-25. Rudy Gay and Isiah Thomas are stars/borderline #2-3 prospects probably at best. Cousins is a future star, but he'd need support more like Rose, Gibson, Butler, etc. to ever win a title there. They probably know this. It's probably hard to sell luxury boxes, tickets, merchandise.

So, the decision... and why I think Cousins either is secretly available (how it's often done; think of how many times you never hear of a trade rumor and that's the trade that happens) or more likely available in the future...

You trade Cousins for Noah and either Mirotic and the Bulls first or the Charlotte pick in addition to Noah. Now, you know right then and there you never have the star power at the top to win a title, but you also know you can shoot that Sacramento team up to 46 wins next year, get people talking, sell tickets and begin denying.. "well, we went from 28 wins to 46.. I mean, you can't say that we won't go to 62 next year right? Better get in nooooow...."

Noah is good if a team is loose and needs to be glued together. He can get a bunch of decent stars who will never be big stars and win them a bunch of regular season games and some playoff series. Much like Doug Collins, he's not going to take you from conference Finals loser to suddenly Noah digs down deep and converts some of that ridiculous offensive talent (LMAO) and now you win the Finals.

Does Sacramento honestly think that Cousins is enough to build a finals team around? Cousins AND a player like Rose.. yes, very plausible. Cousins and a bunch of other guys you draft around him like Deng and Noah type players? Meh.. 

That's where I'm coming from.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> It's actual a reversal of what I've heard here for so long. See, that's not what came first. What came first was, "Joakim Noah, one of the best centers in the league. But... nobody would give you Haywoode Workman for him in a trade."
> 
> You realize that a couple years ago on this forum, and I believe even last summer, the consensus wasn't that Noah couldn't get you Cousins.. it was, "why would you want Cousins for Noah."
> 
> ...


So if you can't build a finals team around Cousins alone, they may as well build it around a guy like Noah right?


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> I'd say they're close. Love probably hovers in the 46-47% range while Dirk may be in the 49-50% range.


Ah, yes, you want specifics. Here's how giving Miami trouble works.

Take players, in the frontcourt, whether center or power forward, 6'11"+ and either smaller like Dirk with a lot of scoring prowess or massive like Hibbert with a decent scoring game down low. 

What's Miami's problem. They spent their money and all that was left at the five or as a post defender of any consequence was Joel Anthony. He sucks. So, to keep offensive talent on the floor, they have to ask Bosh to guard the five. Bosh is terribly light in the ass. So he gets pushed around. Duncan's corpse did it, an aging Dirk was able to go down there whenever he wanted and function with ease, Hibbert was able to look like he had a lot more post game than he really does and just hung out in front of the rim Bynum style and they couldn't move him. 

Then what happens? Lebron comes down to help. Now Dallas, SAS and Indiana can actually get some play going on the perimeter.

You compared Love to Dirk. First, I don't think Dallas beats Miami after that first year. They were gelling. Second, you picked the worst of the three down low. Third, Love is not as long as Dirk and doesn't have Hibbert's size or Duncan's amazing post footwork and veteran saavy (that really carried him through). 

One thing Bosh has shown is that he can still use his length down there and even if you get him pretty low, if he's got length on you he can disrupt a lot of your shots.

This is going to end how most things end in Chicago. Love, if he comes here, won't win a thing, and then afterwards I'll have to listen to, "ooooh, wellllll, easy to say that NOW. Nobody was saying that back then."

Except I am. Cousins and Drummond, ONLY because of Miami's weakness at the five and the importance of a good center (which can be shown by examples like even BAD centers [relative to the stars of yesteryear] who are just really big like Bynum and Hibbert having the influence on late playoff series that they have had), can be that second star on a title team. Love is not. Aldridge is not.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> So if you can't build a finals team around Cousins alone, they may as well build it around a guy like Noah right?





> LOL you don't READ...
> 
> In Sacramento, they're 14-25. Rudy Gay and Isiah Thomas are stars/borderline #2-3 prospects probably at best. Cousins is a future star, but he'd need support more like Rose, Gibson, Butler, etc. to ever win a title there. They probably know this. It's probably hard to sell luxury boxes, tickets, merchandise.
> 
> ...


Just like.. you noted that Paxson tried to rebuild the 04 Pistons. You also noted that that hasn't worked in today's NBA. I said that rebuilding them wouldn't work (because a key part of them was the Wallace for nothing trade) and I said that even if you did it wouldn't work in today's NBA. 

Ironically, around here, I was the bad guy lol. For both beliefs.

Now, when Paxson did this.. did he REALLY think it would win titles? Or was he concerned with "being relevant again" and selling boxes, tickets, merchandise to fans as if we WERE going to contend?


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> Just like.. you noted that Paxson tried to rebuild the 04 Pistons. You also noted that that hasn't worked in today's NBA. I said that rebuilding them wouldn't work (because a key part of them was the Wallace for nothing trade) and I said that even if you did it wouldn't work in today's NBA.
> 
> Ironically, around here, I was the bad guy lol. For both beliefs.
> 
> Now, when Paxson did this.. did he REALLY think it would win titles? Or was he concerned with "being relevant again" and selling boxes, tickets, merchandise to fans as if we WERE going to contend?


Yes you were the bad guy for pointing that out, so much so that you weren't even posting here back when the Ben Wallace days existed.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

jnrjr79 said:


> I love how everyone has to be matched up with an early 90's equivalent. The continued obsession with that era is hysterical.
> 
> BUT WHICH GROWING PAINS CHARACTER IS JOAKIM NOAH GUYS?


Just happens to be the era I was most familiar with as a fan. I mean, has basketball really been as good since? 

Just like I loved basketball in Jordan's prime, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you that the 91 league was as strong as the 83 league. 

If you're referring to Hakeem and Laimbeer... I also added Kareem? He was playing in the early 90s?

Jnr, I remember you buddy. You were with the crowd in the middle of last decade who really thought that that 04 Pistons shit would work. Now, are you mad at how I post, or are you really just mad that I always said it wouldn't and now you're wrong.

Here comes the priceless part where you attempt to assert that you never thought anything that Paxson did was a good idea. Or, you'll just moderate me out lol. Use your moderator authority to enforce the rules ERRRR influence opinion.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> Ah, yes, you want specifics. Here's how giving Miami trouble works.
> 
> Take players, in the frontcourt, whether center or power forward, 6'11"+ and either smaller like Dirk with a lot of scoring prowess or massive like Hibbert with a decent scoring game down low.
> 
> ...


Miami's weakness doesn't lie at center, it's in their frontcourt as a whole. Haslem+Bosh or Bosh+Battier is not strong inside. Love can take on either with Noah as his partner. Love can score inside, he can score outside. Put him at the 3 point line and that takes an extra body out of the paint for Rose, or you give it to the big guy and let him work inside. In your world, big men don't shoot 3s, so you automatically qualify him as a Ryan Anderson type player.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

That's the best response you have for clearly NOT READING what I wrote and then attempting some half ass sarcastic reply to a full detailed explanation? An explanation that:

a) I don't usually have time to give
b) Left you very little wiggle room


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> Just happens to be the era I was most familiar with as a fan. I mean, has basketball really been as good since?
> 
> Just like I loved basketball in Jordan's prime, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you that the 91 league was as strong as the 83 league.
> 
> ...


"Has basketball ever been good since?"

So basically you're admitting the game isn't played the same way as before and your stuck to those old days of how to build a team. 

Also LOL @ the jnrjr part. You come in here acting like you know everything, and you don't. You really haven't proven anything based on the last couple of years. Rose got injured and even if we abided to your 'master plans', it wasn't winning a championship without Rose. Your taking advantage of the fact Rose has been getting injured to act like your some ridiculously knowledgeable NBA guy. Just because you know a few guys from the 1990's doesn't really mean anything.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> That's the best response you have for clearly NOT READING what I wrote and then attempting some half ass sarcastic reply to a full detailed explanation? An explanation that:
> 
> a) I don't usually have time to give
> b) Left you very little wiggle room


No, I'm just not going to give an incredible amount of time to respond to somebody who puts words in other peoples mouths, as well as goes on pages and pages about John Paxson, when nobody really cares about him. You have an unhealthy obsession with him and it's tiring to read over and over again.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> Miami's weakness doesn't lie at center, it's in their frontcourt as a whole. Haslem+Bosh or Bosh+Battier is not strong inside. Love can take on either with Noah as his partner. Love can score inside, he can score outside. Put him at the 3 point line and that takes an extra body out of the paint for Rose, or you give it to the big guy and let him work inside. In your world, big men don't shoot 3s, so you automatically qualify him as a Ryan Anderson type player.


I just explained to you that Bosh has length on Love. They'd stick Bosh on him and then that would be that. Love would get some to be sure, but hardly enough to have Lebron coming down to help and leaving the perimeter open. Haslem v. Noah isn't an issue because Noah has no individual offense and Haslem can muscle on him. They'd likely go with Lebron on Noah if Haslem wasn't playing him and let Battier guard the three. Again, not an issue.

Love is not a tremendous inside scorer. Neither is Hibbert, but Hibbert v. Bosh is a lot more of a mismatch than Love v. Bosh. 

Taking the big guy out of the paint and turning him into a guard has very seldom worked. Big men should be doing big men things, guards should be doing guard things. Move Love out to three and Lebron just guards ROSE. You would test Haslem's durability on Noah that way, but Miami is not suffering tremendously here. 

Love is not a legit #2 star on a championship level. I get it, you like him. College star groupies like Love just like they liked Aldridge, Hinrich and every other player to do well in a very watered down NCAA (since about the mid 90s).


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> No, I'm just not going to give an incredible amount of time to respond to somebody who puts words in other peoples mouths, as well as goes on pages and pages about John Paxson, when nobody really cares about him. You have an unhealthy obsession with him and it's tiring to read over and over again.


A.. I don't give a flying **** what you think. Never have, never will. Save it for someone who gives a crap.

B) Ohhh the "Paxson isn't really the GM" angle? Whoever you want to call it.. GarPaxDorf or whatever passing of the buck to supposed "new regimes" who conduct themselves with the exact same priorities.

Okay, so tell me... John Paxson/whoever isn't a good front office/GM/whatever? If yes, why? If not, why not a change?


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> I just explained to you that Bosh has length on Love. They'd stick Bosh on him and then that would be that. Love would get some to be sure, but hardly enough to have Lebron coming down to help and leaving the perimeter open. Haslem v. Noah isn't an issue because Noah has no individual offense and Haslem can muscle on him. They'd likely go with Lebron on Noah if Haslem wasn't playing him and let Battier guard the three. Again, not an issue.
> 
> Love is not a tremendous inside scorer. Neither is Hibbert, but Hibbert v. Bosh is a lot more of a mismatch than Love v. Bosh.
> 
> ...


Chris Bosh's length is not bothering K-Love. Where was this Bosh length when he was going up against Dirk? He's a good pick and roll defender, if I recall correctly. But as a man defender, he's not stopping Kevin Love.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> "Has basketball ever been good since?"
> 
> So basically you're admitting the game isn't played the same way as before and your stuck to those old days of how to build a team.
> 
> Also LOL @ the jnrjr part. You come in here acting like you know everything, and you don't. You really haven't proven anything based on the last couple of years. Rose got injured and even if we abided to your 'master plans', it wasn't winning a championship without Rose. Your taking advantage of the fact Rose has been getting injured to act like your some ridiculously knowledgeable NBA guy. Just because you know a few guys from the 1990's doesn't really mean anything.


No, I didn't say it's not played the same way. A 7'0" 280 lb. (or whatever) player who can score will always be good. They can change the game all they want to try to take individual prowess out of it and try to avoid another debacle like having to deal with Shaq and the problems he presented for officials... you can't watch Indiana v. Miami last year and tell me that Hibbert wasn't a huge key in a series where frankly Miami had the three best players.

Do I think you normally would be center obsessed? If Miami had Joakim Noah, Lebron and Wade? Maybe less. But they don't. They try to guard the five with Chris Bosh. So a 90s style center is a bad thing? Hibbert sure looked like a good thing to me and David Robinson would LAUGH at Roy Hibbert lol. 

The game is not as GOOD. Does that mean having Isiah Thomas or Scottie Pippen or Patrick Ewing would not be just as good? Head scratcher.

As for the Rose injury.. 94 Bulls... ball game. 

I have proven something. Because, if Deng and Noah who you really do love were Scottie Pippen/Horace Grant good, then you'd have seen something more like what the Bulls did in 94.

They lost MICHAEL JORDAN... who would literally embarrass Derrick Rose. They won 55 games and took the Knicks to game 7 and should have won if not for Hollins' phantom call.

YOU are taking advantage of Rose's injury. You basically say this...

Bulls are contenders
Oops.. Rose got hurt, we'll never know, but since I thought the Bulls were contenders they were 

94 Bulls.. enjoy it because you're going to have to reach pretty badly to try to build and argument out of that one. Oh, I'm sure it will probably avoid the argument altogether and it will focus on how I'm mean.

What a joke.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> Chris Bosh's length is not bothering K-Love. Where was this Bosh length when he was going up against Dirk? He's a good pick and roll defender, if I recall correctly. But as a man defender, he's not stopping Kevin Love.


Uh, Dirk is just as long if not longer than Bosh.

Love is not particularly long and I wouldn't call him a leaper. You clearly like him though and you're clearly very emotional about it lol. You seem like you're about to go Bob Knight on me. Should I get chips and a beer and pull up a seat for the show about what a mean, bad guy I am for being so mean ERRR disagreeing with conventional Bulls "fan" wisdom.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> A.. I don't give a flying **** what you think. Never have, never will. Save it for someone who gives a crap.
> 
> B) Ohhh the "Paxson isn't really the GM" angle? Whoever you want to call it.. GarPaxDorf or whatever passing of the buck to supposed "new regimes" who conduct themselves with the exact same priorities.
> 
> Okay, so tell me... John Paxson/whoever isn't a good front office/GM/whatever? If yes, why? If not, why not a change?


I don't care for Gar, Pax, or whoever. You have some unhealthy obsession with all of them. You don't make a single post that doesn't mention them.

Should they stay? In my opinion yes, but a lot will be judged on what they can bring in now. They draft very well, they handle the salary cap well, they've signed players to good deals(minus that Deng extension a few years ago, though once Thibs came, it looked a lot better). Right now their problem is they can't make that big trade. They have some valid excuses where teams were simply demanding too much, to stars not being on the market, to them not being there, but for me, they need to make that move happen very soon to stay.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> I don't care for Gar, Pax, or whoever. You have some unhealthy obsession with all of them. You don't make a single post that doesn't mention them.
> 
> Should they stay? In my opinion yes, but a lot will be judged on what they can bring in now. They draft very well, they handle the salary cap well, they've signed players to good deals(minus that Deng extension a few years ago, though once Thibs came, it looked a lot better). Right now their problem is they can't make that big trade. They have some valid excuses where teams were simply demanding too much, to stars not being on the market, to them not being there, but for me, they need to make that move happen very soon to stay.


You don't care for them, but yet you want them to stay...

I don't think Kobe was better than Michael... but he won 3 rings before Michael won his first one, he was a more complete player, he was a better shooter..

See how, if I keep going, it sounds like.. I think Kobe is better than Michael?

Do you get that?


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> Uh, Dirk is just as long if not longer than Bosh.
> 
> Love is not particularly long and I wouldn't call him a leaper. You clearly like him though and you're clearly very emotional about it lol. You seem like you're about to go Bob Knight on me. Should I get chips and a beer and pull up a seat for the show about what a mean, bad guy I am for being so mean ERRR disagreeing with conventional Bulls "fan" wisdom.


What about Boozer? Minus the playoffs where he seems to choke, he's been having his way with Miami.

But yes, I'm going all Bob Knight on you when you're the one going on rants every day for pages and pages :lol:


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> I don't care for Gar, Pax, or whoever. You have some unhealthy obsession with all of them. You don't make a single post that doesn't mention them.
> 
> Should they stay? In my opinion yes, but a lot will be judged on what they can bring in now. They draft very well, they handle the salary cap well, they've signed players to good deals(minus that Deng extension a few years ago, though once Thibs came, it looked a lot better). Right now their problem is they can't make that big trade. They have some valid excuses where teams were simply demanding too much, to stars not being on the market, to them not being there, but for me, they need to make that move happen very soon to stay.


They handle the salary cap well? So, if you know that Deng and Noah are third options, it was wise to pay them a combined 26 million per year-ish and not have a #2 option? 

How soon? Cause you said two strikes, but those two strikes took 11 years, so... I should have to wait 5.5 years for a full complete housecleaning if nothing gets better?


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> What about Boozer? Minus the playoffs where he seems to choke, he's been having his way with Miami.
> 
> But yes, I'm going all Bob Knight on you when you're the one going on rants every day for pages and pages :lol:


You talking about the same guy who shot 40.8% v. Miami in 2011 in the ECF?

Do you beat Miami to advance to the Finals in the PLAYOFFS or in February?


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> They handle the salary cap well? So, if you know that Deng and Noah are third options, it was wise to pay them a combined 26 million per year-ish and not have a #2 option?
> 
> How soon? Cause you said two strikes, but those two strikes took 11 years, so... I should have to wait 5.5 years for a full complete housecleaning if nothing gets better?


You're telling me Noah is on a bad contract? San Antonio paid $24 million for Stephen Jackson+Manu Ginobili last year. The problem isn't the Bulls paying that much for Noah and Deng, the issue ends up being Boozer making number 2 money, while not playing like a number 2, minus his first few months here.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> You talking about the same guy who shot 40.8% v. Miami in 2011 in the ECF?
> 
> Do you beat Miami to advance to the Finals in the PLAYOFFS or in February?


Does Chris Bosh only play defense and have length in the playoffs?


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Outside of all of the Hoodey induced drama (telling people what they think, overbroad generalizations, etc...) where do people really disagree here?

I think most people think getting Cousins would be good for the Bulls... I guess it is somewhat fair to criticize those people if they flipped their positions on that question since 2011, but you also have to remember that this is a fanbase that watched Eddy Curry, and was acutely aware that not all big men with talent overcome their mental deficiencies. Still, Cousins has shown promise all along... his shooting percentages were incredibly low from what I remember... I don't know if he was a sure thing, though I always liked his offensive awareness. 

As for Noah people seem to agree that he's a good but not great center... somewhere in the 5-10 range of centers, sliding further down if you allow more PF's on the list. He brings a high level of defensive versatility and has some unique skills offensively (as a passer, ballhandler) and some glaring deficiencies ("the tornado", and the eternity it takes to load it up, only having one post move, etc...). If Hoodey's point is that he shouldn't be cast in his current role I think he's absolutely right - if you want to win a title Joakim Noah can't be your best player... and right now, he is... even with Rose and Deng around you could argue that Noah was our second best player... that's probably not going to get you to the mountain top. We may have been able to win a title if Rose hadn't gone down based on our depth, defense and coaching (as well as Rose's unique physical gifts), but it would have taken a series of legitimate upsets.

I think Noah's role is defensive stopper and I think if you're serious about winning a title you hope that he's your 3rd best player ala Horace Grant or aging-Dennis Rodman... even then I think you'd need Rose to return to super stardom and some other superstar-to-be-named later, or you are counting on beating the odds.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Dornado said:


> Outside of all of the Hoodey induced drama (telling people what they think, overbroad generalizations, etc...) where do people really disagree here?
> 
> I think most people think getting Cousins would be good for the Bulls... I guess it is somewhat fair to criticize those people if they flipped their positions on that question since 2011, but you also have to remember that this is a fanbase that watched Eddy Curry, and was acutely aware that not all big men with talent overcome their mental deficiencies. Still, Cousins has shown promise all along... his shooting percentages were incredibly low from what I remember... I don't know if he was a sure thing, though I always liked his offensive awareness.
> 
> ...


I basically 100% agree with this. It seems that if Noah isn't a top 3 center, he isn't worth having. Not true, you can keep him at C and get a #2 at PF, or you can get that #2 at C and move Noah to PF. You need someone to anchor this Thibodeau defense and Noah does it wonderfully.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> Just happens to be the era I was most familiar with as a fan. I mean, has basketball really been as good since?
> 
> Just like I loved basketball in Jordan's prime, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you that the 91 league was as strong as the 83 league.
> 
> ...



I won't moderate you, but I will mention that there's no particular reason why you have to be such an insufferable dick.

I am not "mad" at your constant referring to the 1990s. It is just an unnecessary and funny tic. Never did I think I'd be reading so much about Larry Nance, y'know?

No, I don't really mind what the front office did in the mid-2000s. I don't recall there being some forgone opportunity to acquire a superstar, so they middled along. The reality of it was that the post-dynasty Bulls sucked so hard for so long, the front office didn't really have the flexibility to simply play the tank game. They did that once and it failed. Don't get me wrong, continuing to do it may have ultimately led to finally getting a star, but I understand the financial realities that will always influence how the Bulls are run.

I'm glad to hear I'm your "buddy" now, though. Best friends forever!


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> That's the best response you have for clearly NOT READING what I wrote and then attempting some half ass sarcastic reply to a full detailed explanation?



Haha. In fairness, if your average post were not the length of a Tolstoy novel, maybe people might read them more carefully.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> As for the Rose injury.. 94 Bulls... ball game.
> 
> I have proven something. Because, if Deng and Noah who you really do love were Scottie Pippen/Horace Grant good, then you'd have seen something more like what the Bulls did in 94.
> 
> ...



If your essential argument is the current Bulls roster is not as good as the greatest dynasty of all time, I agree.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Dornado said:


> Outside of all of the Hoodey induced drama (telling people what they think, overbroad generalizations, etc...) where do people really disagree here?
> 
> I think most people think getting Cousins would be good for the Bulls... I guess it is somewhat fair to criticize those people if they flipped their positions on that question since 2011, but you also have to remember that this is a fanbase that watched Eddy Curry, and was acutely aware that not all big men with talent overcome their mental deficiencies. Still, Cousins has shown promise all along... his shooting percentages were incredibly low from what I remember... I don't know if he was a sure thing, though I always liked his offensive awareness.
> 
> ...


excellent post .

i think noah being so high on the totem pole is part of the problem, Rose got drafted in 2008, its 2014 it been long enough to develop or acquire a quality #2 or heaven forbid use 1 0f the 6 lottery picks he used before that point to either draft or trade for a player of that caliber.

a guy like cousins earlier in his career is a gamble but the kind you often have to take if winning a title is the goal , now it will take a franchise player or multiple 1st round picks and a good player to get which can cripple a franchise to give up as much as cousins would help because his value is more easily apparent.

but thats where the good/great gm's shine they make the moves needed to get to their goals that others cant see or fully appreciate yet.....i dont see that here .

i see a guy who plays scared doesn't like to take chances and it started in the beginning when he wouldn't pull the trigger and trade up for dwayne wade even though he clearly thought he was the goods, he then builds a team of hardworking but low ceiling players under the guise of saving cap space which was spent on a just over the hill ben wallace .

just to blow it up and reuse his new cap space on carlos boozer who was rumored to be amnestied before the ink dried on his contract

the good teams choose well who to go after and they get their man.

they use foresight , they gauge things well , they outwork their competitors, more than once this regime has failed to scout enough players , traded players for pennies on the dollar only to replace them with inferior players, inaccurately judged their own players to watch them flourish in places that were supposedly not as culture focused as the bulls preached themselves to be .

its been almost 11 years since this regime started , if not for the extreme luck of a 1.7 percent chance and this team has to rely on the mental acumen of its decision makers , how good can a person really feel about its future?


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> You're telling me Noah is on a bad contract? San Antonio paid $24 million for Stephen Jackson+Manu Ginobili last year. The problem isn't the Bulls paying that much for Noah and Deng, the issue ends up being Boozer making number 2 money, while not playing like a number 2, minus his first few months here.


Ahhh but ask bulls fans. We "had to" sign boozer lol


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> Ahhh but ask bulls fans. We "had to" sign boozer lol


So you're saying you're not a Bulls fan? Because you just put them all in a group and state you have a different opinion.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

jnrjr79 said:


> If your essential argument is the current Bulls roster is not as good as the greatest dynasty of all time, I agree.


No.. its that after the 94 bulls lost Jordan they had two guys who were actually as good as a current 26m dollar commitment would suggest Noah and Deng were. 

The current bulls lost rose. Jordan would urinate on rose. Rose probably, while good, isn't even Clyde drexler good. 

If the 94 bulls can win 55 and should have beat NYK if not for hollins phantom call...and if Deng and Noah were that good, last year should have looked better.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> So you're saying you're not a Bulls fan? Because you just put them all in a group and state you have a different opinion.


I don't think I'm a fan of pro sports at all. Fan is short for fanatic. I'm more of an analyst. Being a fan would allow for ridiculous phenomena like mark grace being more popular in this town in the 90s than Scottie f-ing Pippen.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> No.. its that after the 94 bulls lost Jordan they had two guys who were actually as good as a current 26m dollar commitment would suggest Noah and Deng were.
> 
> The current bulls lost rose. Jordan would urinate on rose. Rose probably, while good, isn't even Clyde drexler good.
> 
> If the 94 bulls can win 55 and should have beat NYK if not for hollins phantom call...and if Deng and Noah were that good, last year should have looked better.



Nothing you said there contradicts in any way what I said. You're just spewing smoke with no substance.

Your point, if any, seems to be that the current Bulls roster is not as good as the dynasty Bulls roster in terms of surviving the injury of the superstar player. I agree. Though, it is worth noting, last year's Bulls and the Jordan-less Bulls finished with exactly the same result - a 2nd round exit.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

jnrjr79 said:


> Nothing you said there contradicts in any way what I said. You're just spewing smoke with no substance.
> 
> Your point, if any, seems to be that the current Bulls roster is not as good as the dynasty Bulls roster in terms of surviving the injury of the superstar player. I agree. Though, it is worth noting, last year's Bulls and the Jordan-less Bulls finished with exactly the same result - a 2nd round exit.


Strawman. Why would I disagree with you saying the dynasty bulls are better than this team.

All I said was Jordan is so much better that if Deng and Noah are as good as you guys think it should have looked like 94. And the 94 bulls probably beat the 11 bulls with rose..


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> Strawman. Why would I disagree with you saying the dynasty bulls are better than this team.
> 
> All I said was Jordan is so much better that if Deng and Noah are as good as you guys think it should have looked like 94. And the 94 bulls probably beat the 11 bulls with rose..



Yes, again, I agree the 94 Bulls are better than the current Bulls. I submit to your deftly made argument.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> I don't think I'm a fan of pro sports at all. Fan is short for fanatic. I'm more of an analyst. Being a fan would allow for ridiculous phenomena like mark grace being more popular in this town in the 90s than Scottie f-ing Pippen.


lol alright Mr. Analyst, I heard the Sacramento Kings fanatics needed an analyst to break down their team and how they can't stop putting a bunch of Larry Nance's around DeMarcus Cousins. The good news? They already have Cousins so you can save that bitching at least.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

who is joakim noah?

statistically he's pretty good his PER is 19.2 good for 41st in the league right now which would tie a career high for bill laimbeer only exceeded twice by horace grant in his 17 year career .

it would rank him 11th out of centers or at least what is considered centers nowadays, on a team with a premiere big man with a finesse game he may be more valuable than his numbers suggest...on a team that needs scoring from him he may be less valuable than his numbers say he is

in the nba there is rarely an absolute right and wrong but more likely what fits best within your team concept for instance david robinson was not a back to the basket big who relied on being stronger but beat opponents with speed, quickness, leaping ability and a mid-range jumpshot ...much like a forward would he was obviously world's better at it than noah , but the type of game is not usually the problem unless it doesn't fit with what's needed.

right now the league is being ruled by lebron james who beats opponents in much the same way....although he is much better at it than robinson.

there is always going to be a place for guys like noah a player who is similar to horace grant, but if its goal to win a title its best if his place isn't among the team's best 2 players.

the best teams allow for players to do what they do best within the team concept and not get into trying to get them to go beyond what they are effective at, a guy of noah's talent and caliber isn't ever going to be the problem.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

jnrjr79 said:


> Yes, again, I agree the 94 Bulls are better than the current Bulls. I submit to your deftly made argument.


But, what does that say...

Look back to when this team had Luol Deng. If these guys were guys you give a combined 26 mill per year to, then shouldn't it have looked much closer to the 94 Bulls before the Deng trade than how it looked?

The 94 Bulls were also better than the 2011 Bulls as a playoff team. In fact, the only Chicago Bulls teams who would ever beat the 94 Bulls all had Michael Jordan on the team.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> But, what does that say...
> 
> Look back to when this team had Luol Deng. If these guys were guys you give a combined 26 mill per year to, then shouldn't it have looked much closer to the 94 Bulls before the Deng trade than how it looked?
> 
> The 94 Bulls were also better than the 2011 Bulls as a playoff team. In fact, the only Chicago Bulls teams who would ever beat the 94 Bulls all had Michael Jordan on the team.


So basically your expectations are for the Bulls to build the greatest team in NBA history. Lol


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> So basically your expectations are for the Bulls to build the greatest team in NBA history. Lol


The 94 bulls are the greatest team in NBA history OR The 94 bulls even if you added rose would be the greatest team in NBA history? How was it Jerry freaking krause could put those players around Jordan but its this modern ass miracle to expect any better than Noah out of paxson?


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> The 94 bulls are the greatest team in NBA history OR The 94 bulls even if you added rose would be the greatest team in NBA history? How was it Jerry freaking krause could put those players around Jordan but its this modern ass miracle to expect any better than Noah out of paxson?



Meh. Red herring. Noah is light years better than any center the dynasty Bulls ever had, which is comical given your obsession with the position. Noah also isn't the 2nd option on this incarnation of the Bulls, nor is he paid like it. Your ire should be drawn toward Boozer and/or Deng.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Noah is a great player, not a star, but still a great player. If you plopped him on OKC where he would be the third best player on the team they would be heavy favorites to win it all.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

jnrjr79 said:


> Meh. Red herring. Noah is light years better than any center the dynasty Bulls ever had, which is comical given your obsession with the position. Noah also isn't the 2nd option on this incarnation of the Bulls, nor is he paid like it. Your ire should be drawn toward Boozer and/or Deng.


Why center? Of course it was their weakest position.

Now... a lot of Bulls fans like to go to this. "Jordan's Bulls didn't have a center." 

Yeah, they had JORDAN lol. A lot of rules or advantages go out the window when you have Michael Jordan. Do you think I'd want DeMarcus Cousins or friggin Hakeem Olajuwon if we could have Michael Jordan instead? Come on dude.

In fact, that's a big reason you could say that Bulls fans are so ignorant about what the position can provide you (efficient scoring and a high likelihood of a key bucket in a key situation late in physical playoff games). When you have Michael Jordan, you're in one of the rare situations when post scoring isn't really a necessity. So, fans who watched those teams are going to say, "hey, don't need a center." 

Well, when the other team has Lebron James and has Chris Bosh guarding the post, yes, a good center helps. You guys have this WISH that I think in generalities but you just never ask the question. When you have Michael Jordan, Lebron James, Larry Bird, do you need efficient scoring in the post from a back-to-the-basket player in the post? No.

But... Kobe Bryant needed it ALWAYS to win a championship. Shaq and Pau Gasol/Andrew Bynum.

So, do you think Derrick Rose is better than KOBE? On his best day he isn't. But Kobe needed it and Rose didn't. AND... Lebron was either not in the league yet when Kobe won OR on a bad Cleveland team. So you have a player who isn't as good as Kobe and actually has to beat Lebron, and suddenly Jerry West and Mitch Kupchak don't know shit huh? They and all their RINGS can go jump off of a pier when the "Right Way" guy comes along with his stonefaced coach, huh? 

Ahhh yes, the "it's not Noah, it's the other guy" merry-go-round of accountability avoidance.. as if Deng and Boozer were paid by another front office. It's all part of a plan sweetheart. I'm fine with Noah as a third option and I'm fine with his money. What I'm not fine with is overpaying Deng and Noah and then... instead of someone saying, "yes, this is a bad front office because Deng and Boozer were terrible signings for their price," what you get is, "hey, Noah is pretty good." In a vacuum as a third option, yes, I like him. As something that's going to make up for relying on Deng as a #2 or not having a #2? No.

My problem was, there was no #2, so .. instead of not paying anyone and continuing to be high lottery with Rose like OKC was with Durant until you drafted another star, they tried to sign 3 guys and hope that one of them could just walk backwards into being a #2 star when it should have been obvious that none of them are. 

My problem is, you don't pay DENG AND NOAH 26 when neither of them is a #2. The hot potato game isn't really an argument. Everything is in the context of everything else that you do. 

First you get Rose. I bought into the argument that you can't do anything unless you luck into a superstar. That was the argument of excuse making 2007 Bulls fans, right? "Bulls are going to be the new Pistons, Bulls are going to win." "Hey, it looks like you guys' 'plan' is a joke and they aren't going to win as a 'new Pistons'." "Well, can't blame Johnny Pax. You need a superstar."

So they got one. Then, you do NOTHING until you get another star. Suck, draft, save money... don't spend or plan to stop being a sub 42-ish win team until you get that guy that you THINK is a #2 star.. a la Westbrook. THEN you add players like Noah. Guys like that come AFTER you get your top stars. 

Until then, guys like Noah just put you in basketball hell. Drafting lower and lower, less and less money, fewer time periods when you can make your "choice" on a big star. 

But, let's face it... a lot of you guys probably thought Deng and Noah were good enough, no?


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Luke said:


> Noah is a great player, not a star, but still a great player. If you plopped him on OKC where he would be the third best player on the team they would be heavy favorites to win it all.


A great player???? James Worthy is a GREAT player. Reggie Miller, Patrick Ewing, Julius Erving, David Robinson, Johnny Havlicek, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Scottie Pippen, Dwyane Wade.. those are great players. 

Great and star and superstar gets thrown around too much.

I wouldn't even call Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady "great" players. I start thinking of great at Robert Parish and north... maybe a little lower, but you have to be at least that.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Hoodey said:


> A great player???? James Worthy is a GREAT player. Reggie Miller, Patrick Ewing, Julius Erving, David Robinson, Johnny Havlicek, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Scottie Pippen, Dwyane Wade.. those are great players.
> 
> Great and star and superstar gets thrown around too much.
> 
> I wouldn't even call Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady "great" players. I start thinking of great at Robert Parish and north... maybe a little lower, but you have to be at least that.


I did not call Noah a star, or a superstar, so I don't know where that's coming from. 

If the "star" distinction is defined as all star caliber player, and the tier below star is great, then yeah, Noah is a great player. Even though Noah has technically made the all star team before I wouldn't necessarily call him an all star talent, moreso that the competition at his position particularly in the (l)eastern conference is sub par.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Dornado said:


> Outside of all of the Hoodey induced drama (telling people what they think, overbroad generalizations, etc...) where do people really disagree here?
> 
> I think most people think getting Cousins would be good for the Bulls... I guess it is somewhat fair to criticize those people if they flipped their positions on that question since 2011, but you also have to remember that this is a fanbase that watched Eddy Curry, and was acutely aware that not all big men with talent overcome their mental deficiencies. Still, Cousins has shown promise all along... his shooting percentages were incredibly low from what I remember... I don't know if he was a sure thing, though I always liked his offensive awareness.


Exactly. See, if you're smart, you look at Eddy Curry and you say, "sad case of a guy who had the talent that if he was on this team and applied himself, a guy with his size and athleticism could really hurt Miami." But EDDY CURRY didn't apply himself. Hey, here's another guy who could also hurt Miami whose name ISN'T Eddy Curry. And I remember a year ago guys mocking the idea that Cousins would be better than Noah. 23.5 PPG and 11.5 RPG on a guy whose future is that of a LEGIT #2 star on a title team at LEAST.

Now, if you're not so bright but if you're part of the boards "in group" and you have other people high fiving you and telling you know it all, then you say, "oh no... he's big and young. He must be just like Eddy Curry's fat ass. Yeah, sucks... don't do it."

See, Dornado, at least you admit it. No one here WANTED Cousins here last year and NOW all those people are just arguing that we couldn't TRADE FOR Cousins. No... the average Bulls fan on forums last year just wanted Noah more. 



> As for Noah people seem to agree that he's a good but not great center... somewhere in the 5-10 range of centers, sliding further down if you allow more PF's on the list. He brings a high level of defensive versatility and has some unique skills offensively (as a passer, ballhandler) and some glaring deficiencies ("the tornado", and the eternity it takes to load it up, only having one post move, etc...). If Hoodey's point is that he shouldn't be cast in his current role I think he's absolutely right - if you want to win a title Joakim Noah can't be your best player... and right now, he is... even with Rose and Deng around you could argue that Noah was our second best player... that's probably not going to get you to the mountain top. We may have been able to win a title if Rose hadn't gone down based on our depth, defense and coaching (as well as Rose's unique physical gifts), but it would have taken a series of legitimate upsets.
> 
> I think Noah's role is defensive stopper and I think if you're serious about winning a title you hope that he's your 3rd best player ala Horace Grant or aging-Dennis Rodman... even then I think you'd need Rose to return to super stardom and some other superstar-to-be-named later, or you are counting on beating the odds.


Diminishing returns. The Bulls had big time defense but Miami could still score on them in 2011. You guys seem to think the Bulls had 89 Pistons defense or something.. or that we had a player like David Robinson back there.

What this team has always needed was to sacrifice SOME OF (not ALL OF, SOME OF) the defense and depth for efficient OFFENSE. Because everyone plays defense in the playoffs. And depth doesn't win. Talent at the top wins. The Bulls in Jordan's career beat teams with more depth. Who was the 7th best Bull in the early 90s once you got past BJ Armstrong? 93...? Rodney McCray and Will Perdue?!?! Craig Hodges? Who couldn't do a thing on a basketball court but hit a 3?

Noah's role can't be as a #1 definitely but also not as a #2 at all. Now, if WE HAD LEBRON and Miami had Rose.. then, maybe. Because we're WAY better at #1, so we could do more in terms of going with defense and scrappiness further down the roster... sure. 

But not presently.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Luke said:


> I did not call Noah a star, or a superstar, so I don't know where that's coming from.
> 
> If the "star" distinction is defined as all star caliber player, and the tier below star is great, then yeah, Noah is a great player. Even though Noah has technically made the all star team before I wouldn't necessarily call him an all star talent, moreso that the competition at his position particularly in the (l)eastern conference is sub par.


I'd say if you're one of the games GREATS.. you're a superstar, no? 

great is not below star lol.. I'd call a great player more than just your run of the mill star or all star. In the early 90s for example, since we have seen all their careers completely end, your great players are (no particular order):

Michael Jordan
Shaquille O'neal (before his prime, still in league)
Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing
Scottie Pippen
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
Isiah Thomas (past his prime but still in the league)
Magic Johnson (ditto)
Charles Barkley
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Jason Kidd
Grant Hill (pre-injury)

I may have missed a guy or two but I wouldn't even call Chris Mullin GREAT.. and he was on the Dream Team.

Only time will tell who is truly great from this era..


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Jesus Christ, is this how you interact with people in real life? My evaluation of Noah as a player isn't even that drastically different than your's, but you're nitpicking my use of a very vague term, "great" and are writing novels about it. Get a hobby big guy.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

If you're calling Noah great you would have been running around in the 90s like, "oh yeah, Rik Smits is great! Buck Williams! Mitch Richmond! Terry Porter! Larry Nance!"

If you're lucky, you get Jordan. Then, you go out and get Pippen (metaphors obviously).. THEN you start adding players like Noah.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Luke said:


> Jesus Christ, is this how you interact with people in real life? My evaluation of Noah as a player isn't even that drastically different than your's, but you're nitpicking my use of a very vague term, "great" and are writing novels about it. Get a hobby big guy.


Well you're the one saying Jesus Christ and getting all ticked.

See, I have a theory about people... they basically are a thing. THEN, they project that onto someone else. A group of people at work.. they're real ass holes.. any work place, pick. But, they're all really big ass holes who happen to like each other. That makes sense, since ass holes usually like other ass holes right. Following me. Here comes a guy who isn't really as big of an ass hole as them, but he's more open about it and doesn't keep it so hush hush weasel, etc. He'll actually say to peoples' face what a bunch of cowards only will say when they make sure no one is around.

But, they turn him into the "work ass hole." When really, they're kind of the real ass holes, but they have strength in numbers.

And, if you pay attention, people ... every once in a while, will tip their hand and show you how full of shit they are.

Anti-smoking people.. "can't have cigarettes in restaurants... causes cancer, bad for your health, blah blah blah blah." I happen to agree. But.. then, they come out with the vapor. Cigarette simulators that aren't bad for your health. The same people who got cigarettes banned get the vapor banned. Now.. was it REALLY about the health... or did they really just not like that you could do this thing called smoking and wanted to show that they could stop you. Because, if it's "all about the health," then when it comes to the vapor, they should shut the **** up, right?

But people, particularly righteous sanctimonious hypocrites are completely full of shit.

You come out with this Jesus Christ, you deal with people this way... when really, here's how this board and most Bulls boards and message boards work.

State 1: Conventional opinion
next step: Other guy disagrees, "no, it's this way, here's why"
next step: "I'm outraged, you're wrong, and how dare you get off even thinking that way. Shut up."

And, when the group is then talked to in kind, they're amazed that someone could go against their agreed upon beliefs.

I give less than half of a **** what you or any of you think. I loved watching Jordan's Bulls and I realize that Jerry Krause:

a) Could have added Joakim Noah to the Bulls and watched Jordan become some 2-ring (or maybe less) version of Wilt Chamberlain
b) Added Scottie Pippen, which.. was not a miracle. It wasn't this impossible ass transaction

I don't see any reason why we can't live up to that again...

But these fantasies about:

a) The 04 Pistons incarnate
b) Deng and Noah as Robin and Robin 2a
c) Kevin Love, Lamarcus Aldridge or someone else who is definitely not the answer "saving the day"

They have to go.

Cousins, Drummond.. these guys remind me more of a young Pippen than they remind me of Love or Noah. "Can't get them." We probably could have at some point and may have blown our shot. Of course I can't tap voicemails to figure out if we really could get them now. But, the point is... Paxson, Forman and Bulls nation didn't want them. They wanted Noah and Deng. 

But this is a town that is VERY guilty of thinking that Rex Grossman was WAY better than he was. Who do you think maybe sniffed that out early on?

And by the way, I have no desire to be pessimistic regardless of who it is... I'm not Jay Marriotti... I watched Pippen in 1988 and was like, "bingo."


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Hoodey said:


> Why center? Of course it was their weakest position.
> 
> Now... a lot of Bulls fans like to go to this. "Jordan's Bulls didn't have a center."
> 
> ...



tl;dr


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Is this guy serious?


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Hoodey's quixotic quest continues.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

hahahaha Drummond and Cousins are closer to Pippen than they are Noah? hahahahahahahahahahhahahaha ****


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Luke said:


> Is this guy serious?


Yes lmfao. Don't leave though, the entertainment has only begun.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> hahahaha Drummond and Cousins are closer to Pippen than they are Noah? hahahahahahahahahahhahahaha ****


At their age? Talent wise? How could you even dispute that?


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> At their age? Talent wise? How could you even dispute that?


Noah as the best player of the current Bulls team has a better record than both Drummond and Cousins. You'd think someone closer to Scottie Pippen could lead his team to records above 500.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

mvP to the Wee said:


> Noah as the best player of the current Bulls team has a better record than both Drummond and Cousins. You'd think someone closer to Scottie Pippen could lead his team to records above 500.


That's giving way too much credit to Noah. I guarantee you that if thibs isn't coaching This team, the bulls are no where near .500.

On the flip side, switch cousins and Noah and I bet the bulls still have the same record if not better, while the kings would probably be even worse then it is now.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> Noah as the best player of the current Bulls team has a better record than both Drummond and Cousins. You'd think someone closer to Scottie Pippen could lead his team to records above 500.


Noah is 23? Wow... news to me.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

mvP to the Wee said:


> Noah as the best player of the current Bulls team has a better record than both Drummond and Cousins. You'd think someone closer to Scottie Pippen could lead his team to records above 500.


Noah at 23 ... 6.7 ppg 7.6 RPG. What a legend lol. But he had clown hair and makes mean faces.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Hoodey said:


> Noah is 23? Wow... news to me.


Ok good luck with seeing Drummond and Cousins lead their team to the playoffs as a top 5 seed, since they're both closer to Pippen than they are Noah. The hilarity in your posts cannot be touched by anyone else.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Here's a question. What does all this accomplish? Are you suggesting that the Bulls should trade Noah for Cousins? Do you think the Bulls could trade Noah for Cousins? Do you think the Kings would trade Cousins for Noah? 

Exactly where the hell does any of this get you? What is the Master plan for turning Noah, who apparently is not any damned good, into some guy who is going to guide the Bulls to the Land of Milk and Honey? Maybe Moses if he is available.


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## Hoodey (Jul 3, 2011)

Diable said:


> Here's a question. What does all this accomplish? Are you suggesting that the Bulls should trade Noah for Cousins? Do you think the Bulls could trade Noah for Cousins? Do you think the Kings would trade Cousins for Noah?
> 
> Exactly where the hell does any of this get you? What is the Master plan for turning Noah, who apparently is not any damned good, into some guy who is going to guide the Bulls to the Land of Milk and Honey? Maybe Moses if he is available.


My stance is that you know damn well at some point, even if it was before he was drafted... the bulls could have gotten cousins in some deal involving Noah
Funny a year or so ago Noah was just always gonna be the better player. Now... cousins just isn't available and never was even if the bulls had wanted to trade ahead of the kings in ciusins' draft.


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## LeGoat06 (Jun 24, 2013)

Diable said:


> Here's a question. What does all this accomplish? Are you suggesting that the Bulls should trade Noah for Cousins? Do you think the Bulls could trade Noah for Cousins? Do you think the Kings would trade Cousins for Noah?
> 
> Exactly where the hell does any of this get you? What is the Master plan for turning Noah, who apparently is not any damned good, into some guy who is going to guide the Bulls to the Land of Milk and Honey? Maybe Moses if he is available.


They couldn't do that deal straight up. Noah is a great hustle player that gives everything everytime he's on the floor but the upside and potential in Cousins is worth more than just Noah. Imo


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