# So, what can we do now?



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

No more transactions for the entire remaining off-season?



> With the *Brian Scalabrine *signing and *Ryan Gomes's *pending agreement, the Celtics are down to around $2 million-$2.2 million in their midlevel exception. And their payroll (minus *Antoine Walker *and *Gary Payton*) is now around $50 million, which represents a very safe figure for ownership. Is there anyone out there in free agency who might be lured by the remaining $2.2 million who is better than what they now have? Doubtful. You might be able to get *Brevin **Knight *or someone of that ilk for that figure -- and Knight might be open to leaving Charlotte, where he has been told that he will be a mentor for *Ray Felton *if he decides to come back. But unless there's some financial wizardry involved, a more experienced point guard along the lines of *Earl Watson*, *Marko **Jaric*, or even *Jeff McInnis *is not going to be tempted by that amount.


Link


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Brevin Knight would be nice to have around, but probably unlikely. I would really like to see Antoine come back. If he isn't back, I'd like a point and a pick/young guy in a sign and trade.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

I still don't understand why we signed Veal...

Now we don't have our greatest money asset available, the MLE.


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## KJay (Sep 22, 2002)

isn't Jaric a two guard that the Clips forced to be a point guard?


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

I look at the Veal signing like this - 

Any PF would be brought on as Al's now or future backup. Danny, Doc AND THE PLAYER know this. The thinking on Al is that he's going to be at least a solid starter, and his backup is going to be playing limited minutes a game in the near future. Does a good player want to sign on for that? Do we want to pay someone the full MLE for that? Probably not.

(that is unless of course his poor showing in the summer league continues...but summer league is summer league...I hope)

Didn't Swift go to a team where he's going to get big minutes for the foreseeable future? And Marshall too?


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## KJay (Sep 22, 2002)

Marshall - Cleveland

Swift - rockets I think


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

KJay said:


> isn't Jaric a two guard that the Clips forced to be a point guard?


No, he's a point guard. You might be thinking of Jiri Welsch.


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## vandyke (Jan 8, 2004)

This roster is pretty much set, the only remaining decision is on Antoine, will he be back, will we work a s&t for him and get another player or a draft pick, but other than that this roster is pretty much set, I am still hoping that we find a team that is willing to take Blount or Raef off of our hands because I want to see Perkins play this year but if not our roster is set, which means nothing new to report until camp starts which is pretty boring.

pg- West, Banks, Greene
sg- Davis, Allen, Green
sf- Pierce, Reed, Gomes
pf- Toine?, Jefferson, Veal
c- Raef, Blount, Perkins

And I agree with Causeway the signing of Veal is twofold, first he is a serviceable back-up power forward who can contribute 15-20 minutes a game while we bring along Jefferson, and it also hurts a division rivals bench, NJ may have a great starting five adding SAR but their bench stinks.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

vandyke said:


> And I agree with Causeway the signing of Veal is twofold, first he is a serviceable back-up power forward who can contribute 15-20 minutes a game while we bring along Jefferson, and it also hurts a division rivals bench, NJ may have a great starting five adding SAR but their bench stinks.


Actually, I'm more of the mind that taking away the temptation of New Jersey's head coach to play their soft power forward that shoots 39% from the field has actually _helped_ the Nets, not hurt them.


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## Attila (Jul 23, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> Actually, I'm more of the mind that taking away the temptation of New Jersey's head coach to play their soft power forward that shoots 39% from the field has actually _helped_ the Nets, not hurt them.



Yeah, but he has a great "brain type".


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Signing Scalabrine to that deal was, in a word, retarded.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Attila said:


> Yeah, but he has a great "brain type".


Why don't the Celtics just get 14 mad scientists?

I agree with P-Dub.


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## Flava_D (Apr 22, 2005)

we should all get a hobby until training camp...i say tetherball....


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

The signing of Veal is actually not quite as "retarded" as people are making it out to be. I am not saying I was jumping up and down when I heard about it however...

It's starting to make some sense why we signed Scalabrine instead of using the entire MLE on one player. Ainge was anticipating having to use some of the MLE to sign his second round picks.

This draft was pretty deep and a lot of the second round picks could have gone in the first round in other years. As such, they have a bit of leverage to ask for more money than the rookie scale contracts.

They leverage they have is they could choose to sit out a year, and re-enter the draft next year in what will probably be a weaker draft - meaning they could go in the first round next year and make more money.

So, one thing is clear - Danny could not spend the entire MLE and sign his two second-round picks. Since it seems there was nobody available to us for the MLE that would fit into the team's long term plans, it was the safer bet to sign the rookies. 

And think about the signing of Googs last season. Ainge said: "Along with his versatility, I think his physical and mental toughness are his greatest assets." 

and

""He is a guy that can play a little bit of center in a pinch for Doc (Rivers)," continued Ainge. "He can play small forward, can play power forward. He can pass, he can shoot and create off the dribble. He's a complete basketball player. He really knows how to play the game." 

Googs turned out to have crap knees and no jumper - basically he was done -but I think Ainge is after the same thing.

Is Veal as good as Googs in Googs prime? No. But he's a solid backup and a good "locker room guy" something people keep saying this team needs.

Was there a "better" backup for the money that wanted to or was willing to come to Boston? If there was I have faith that Ainge would have made the offer - or did make the offer.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Just read that the Wolves signed Mark Madsen to a 5 year $10M deal. 

Madsen aveaged 2 points and 3 rebounds per game last season. His career numbers are no better. And he is older. Plus he shoots free throws like Shaq. Madsen is known for his hustle and that's about it. Scalabrine is a hustle guy with some offensive potential.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

Causeway said:


> Just read that the Wolves signed Mark Madsen to a 5 year $10M deal.
> 
> Madsen aveaged 2 points and 3 rebounds per game last season. His career numbers are no better. And he is older. Plus he shoots free throws like Shaq. Madsen is known for his hustle and that's about it. Scalabrine is a hustle guy with some offensive potential.


Don't forget about his dance moves


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Gerald Green said:


> Don't forget about his dance moves


 :biggrin: good point.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> The signing of Veal is actually not quite as "retarded" as people are making it out to be. I am not saying I was jumping up and down when I heard about it however...
> 
> It's starting to make some sense why we signed Scalabrine instead of using the entire MLE on one player. Ainge was anticipating having to use some of the MLE to sign his second round picks.
> 
> ...


Googs worst season is Veal's best. How is this signing similar to Googs' last yaer? Googs got a 1 year deal worth about 1.5 million, Veal got 10 times that and 5 times more years.

And what does the MLE have to do with Veal and the rookies? The rookies could very well have been signed for part of the MLE without Veal. 

You also can't compare Madsen to Veal...because Madsen's team actually wanted him back...and he's better than Scalabrine.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> Googs worst season is Veal's best. How is this signing similar to Googs' last yaer? Googs got a 1 year deal worth about 1.5 million, Veal got 10 times that and 5 times more years.


Veal is getting 15 million a year? That IS a bad signing.



aquaitious said:


> And what does the MLE have to do with Veal and the rookies? The rookies could very well have been signed for part of the MLE without Veal.


Yes they could have. But some people are saying we could have used ALL of the MLE to get someone better than Scabs. If we did we would not have been able to sign some of the rookies. 



aquaitious said:


> You also can't compare Madsen to Veal...because Madsen's team actually wanted him back...and he's better than Scalabrine.


How is Madsen better than Scabs?


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> Veal is getting 15 million a year? That IS a bad signing.


I don't think you read my post clearly. He's getting 15 million over the next 5 years.



> Yes they could have. But some people are saying we could have used ALL of the MLE to get someone better than Scabs. If we did we would not have been able to sign some of the rookies.


I never said we had to sign a guy with the MLE...but why overpay for a guy that no one wanted? Not even his own team...

Why wouldn't we have been able to sign some of the rookies?...We're under the cap anyway.



> How is Madsen better than Scabs?


Better shooter. Better rebounder. Knows his role better.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> I don't think you read my post clearly. He's getting 15 million over the next 5 years.


you said 10 times. One year at 1.5 and 5 years at 15 is not 10 times. It's 3 times. And Scabs is much younger and can still play. Googs is done.





aquaitious said:


> I never said we had to sign a guy with the MLE...but why overpay for a guy that no one wanted? Not even his own team...


no one wanted him - how do you know this? and even if it's true - 17 teams passed on GG. So what's your point?

he was paid about what the market calls for. Look at some of the big man signings this offseason.






aquaitious said:


> Better shooter. Better rebounder. Knows his role better.


Mads averages about 3 points and 3 boards a game in about 13 minutes a game with an EFF of + 4.37

Scabs averages about 4 points a game and almost double the rebounds in about the same minutes with an EFF of + 8.17.

He's also 2 years younger than MM.

Also say what you want about Scabs - but the guy knows his role. No idea where you get that from.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> you said 10 times. One year at 1.5 and 5 years at 15 is not 10 times. It's 3 times. And Scabs is much younger and can still play. Googs is done.


k, I see I forgot to add "the money," but anyone could have figured that out...don't know why you didn't _want_ to.

He's getting 10 times the salary and 5 times the years.
15 million is 10 times more than 1.5...




> no one wanted him - how do you know this? and even if it's true - 17 teams passed on GG. So what's your point?
> 
> he was paid about what the market calls for. Look at some of the big man signings this offseason.


I'm sure teams were offering him max type contracts, but he chose to sign with the Celtics.  17 teams did not pass on GG though, and signing a guy who sucks and passing on a guy in the draft are two completely different things.

With Veal you know what you're getting, a bad defender, a horrible shooter, and an average rebounder...with Green no one knew, and 3/4 teams picked guys that could actually contribute right away.




> Mads averages about 3 points and 3 boards a game in about 13 minutes a game with an EFF of + 4.37
> 
> Scabs averages about 4 points a game and almost double the rebounds in about the same minutes with an EFF of + 8.17.
> 
> ...


Those numbers look totally off.

Mads shot 50% and got 2 points and 3 rebounds in 15 minutes.
Veal shot 40% got 6 points and 5 rebounds in 22 minutes.

Mads played on a team that has KG and Eddie Griffin...and Veal got beat by a center in New Jersey for the starting PF spot? And could only average 22 minutes per game?

Who cares if he's younger or not, neither have potential. I'd rather sign the bum who has 2 rings and shoots in the mid to high 40's than a bum who's trigger happy and shoots under 40.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> k, I see I forgot to add "the money," but anyone could have figured that out...don't know why you didn't _want_ to.
> 
> He's getting 10 times the salary and 5 times the years.
> 15 million is 10 times more than 1.5...


It makes a difference. And would ANYONE give Googs 5 years at this point in his career? Nope.




aquaitious said:


> but anyone could have figured that out...don't know why you didn't _want_ to.I'm sure teams were offering him max type contracts, but he chose to sign with the Celtics.  17 teams did not pass on GG though, and signing a guy who sucks and passing on a guy in the draft are two completely different things.


There's a huge difference between a max contract and saying "no one wanted the guy". but anyone could have figured that out...don't know why you didn't _want_ to.

and yes it's different. but the point is that you are making assumptions. the point I am making is even if you are right - I don't really care what other teams did not do. I trust that Ainge did his homework.



aquaitious said:


> With Veal you know what you're getting, a bad defender, a horrible shooter, and an average rebounder...with Green no one knew, and 3/4 teams picked guys that could actually contribute right away.


he's a young solid backup that got solid big man backup money.





aquaitious said:


> Those numbers look totally off.
> 
> Mads shot 50% and got 2 points and 3 rebounds in 15 minutes.
> Veal shot 40% got 6 points and 5 rebounds in 22 minutes.


the number are from NBA.com.



aquaitious said:


> Mads played on a team that has KG and Eddie Griffin...and Veal got beat by a center in New Jersey for the starting PF spot? And could only average 22 minutes per game?
> 
> Who cares if he's younger or not, neither have potential. I'd rather sign the bum who has 2 rings and shoots in the mid to high 40's than a bum who's trigger happy and shoots under 40.


he's a solid backup. that's all. he's not a bum.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> It makes a difference. And would ANYONE give Googs 5 years at this point in his career? Nope.


Why would anyone need Googs or Veal for 5 years? I'm pretty sure that every year there's a new free agent, so instead of signing Veal to 5 years we could have easily offered him, say 2 with a 3rd team option year? But no, we had to do 4 and 5.




> There's a huge difference between a max contract and saying "no one wanted the guy". but anyone could have figured that out...don't know why you didn't _want_ to.
> 
> and yes it's different. but the point is that you are making assumptions. the point I am making is even if you are right - I don't really care what other teams did not do. I trust that Ainge did his homework.


Yes there's a differnce between a max and a non max, but there's also a difference between trying to get a bargain and giving a guy 15 million right away.

I can just picture this as an Simpson episode:

NBA: "Next on the bit, is a low % shooting PF, who couldn't even start on a team that didn't have a PF last year, and did nothing great in his 4 years so far. We're looking at something at about a 7-8 million contract"

*29 teams in silence*

Danny: "I'll give you 15 million for 5 years."



> *The back up nonsense*


Speaking of back ups, in 2 years time we'll be paying 20 per for 3 of them. Raef, Blount and Veal. Yay. This will be fun when our young guys are due for a contract.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

> Why would anyone need Googs or Veal for 5 years? I'm pretty sure that every year there's a new free agent, so instead of signing Veal to 5 years *we could have easily offered him, say 2 with a 3rd team option year*? But no, we had to do 4 and 5.


Again - how do you know this? You seem to act like you know more than Ainge. Again I'll go on the assumption that Ainge knows what he's doing. I'll also assume that if he wanted Scabs and he could have "easily" gotten him for 2 years with a 3rd team option - he would have.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Again I'll go on the assumption that Ainge knows what he's doing.


I won't. Because this signing is crap, pure and simple. If DA tried to get Scalabrine for 2 yr w/option and couldn't, let the guy go. We're not missing much. It's not worth tying up an already handcuffed franchise (w/ Raef, Blount) with another stiff. It's not like Scalabrine is LeBron freaking James and if we can't get him, our franch is screwed. I'd even venture to say we're better off w/o Scalabrine. And I would CERTAINLY rather just re-sign Walker and have him and Al platoon PF than have Scalabrine.

I don't understand how anybody can be in favor of this move...

Danny Ainge = Dunce

For this move, anyways. He's already chipped away enough of the MLE so that we won't get anybody decent (instead we get career stiff Brian Scalabrine and Joe Forte, Jr.). DA's next move:

*Paul Pierce*
6'6" SF from Kansas
21.6ppg, 6.60rpg, 4.2apg

FOR

*Christian Laettner*
6'11" PF from Duke
5.3ppg, 2.70rpg, 0.8apg

*Wang Zhizhi*
7'1" C from China
2.2ppg, .9rpg, .3apg

*Trade Synopsis*: Boston rids itself of it's largest contract, resident ballhog, locker room cancer, and career loser Paul Pierce, who is clearly on the decline. Paul's numbers are down from years past due mostly to the fact that he is a has-been with no inclination to win. In return, Celtics get career overachiever Christian Laettner, a proven winner and clutch performer (don't believe me? NCAA title game). Nobody expected big things from Laettner after being drafted thrid overall but he is due for a breakout season. Also included is 7-1 powerhouse Wang Zhizhi. Although his numbers may seem low, his per 48 stats are through the roof, proving he is a talent. The salaries don't match initially but DA convinces Miami to restructure Zhizhi's contract for a 5-year, 50-million deal. Boston GM Ainge on the move:

"At this moment we are thrilled to have an NCAA champion and future All-NBA Team-er on our roster. Losing Paul hurts but I know Christian and Wang will be more than enough to fill the void. In other news, I've maxed Scalabrine and cut Ricky Davis, Raef LaFrentz, Antoine Walker, and traded young talent in order to save money and see some fresh faces around here."

Bravo, Danny.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> It's not like Scalabrine is LeBron freaking James and if we


Good point. And that's why Scabs did not get LeBron freaking James money. He got Scabs money.

I am in favor of this move.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> Again - how do you know this? You seem to act like you know more than Ainge. Again I'll go on the assumption that Ainge knows what he's doing. I'll also assume that if he wanted Scabs and he could have "easily" gotten him for 2 years with a 3rd team option - he would have.


As P-Dub already said, he's not the savior of this franchise, nor is he even the 10th best player on this roster. If you can't sign him for a 2 or 3 year deal, forget about him, because (as I've already stated) shockingly every year is filled with a new free agent.

Veal isn't much, he just a guy that will represent the 5th player on the floor, eventhough with him we're playing 4 vs 5.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

P-Dub34 said:


> I won't. Because this signing is crap, pure and simple. If DA tried to get Scalabrine for 2 yr w/option and couldn't, let the guy go. We're not missing much. It's not worth tying up an already handcuffed franchise (w/ Raef, Blount) with another stiff. It's not like Scalabrine is LeBron freaking James and if we can't get him, our franch is screwed. I'd even venture to say we're better off w/o Scalabrine. And I would CERTAINLY rather just re-sign Walker and have him and Al platoon PF than have Scalabrine.
> 
> I don't understand how anybody can be in favor of this move...
> 
> ...


Ainge is a dunce because he signed a twelth man to a cheap contract? Its ok if you think Ainge is a poor GM, but the Scalabrine contract isn't the issue that makes him bad. I understand that we hate the guy, hell I've hated him since he was a cheerleading little ***** for the Nets when they were going to the finals. But don't you think your'e overstating yourself a bit here?

Also, who exactly is Joe Forte, Jr.? Greene and Gomes in no way compare to Joe Forte.

Seriously, I thought you would save this post until Pierce was dealt.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Link:

''I'm one of those guys that will do whatever I have to do to fit in with the team."


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Lemme start by saying that I got too riled up thinking about Scalabrine and Greene's signings.



> Ainge is a dunce because he signed a twelth man to a cheap contract?


A contract which is way too long. Greene's was totally unnessecary as well.



> Its ok if you think Ainge is a poor GM, but the Scalabrine contract isn't the issue that makes him bad.


I don't think Ainge is a bad GM. I just think he made two bad moves very close to each other a ruined our chance of possibly getting somebody who can contribute to this team for real.



> But don't you think your'e overstating yourself a bit here?


Absolutely. I let the post get away from me.



> Also, who exactly is Joe Forte, Jr.? Greene and Gomes in no way compare to Joe Forte.


Orien Greene. I realize their games aren't similar and didn't feel like writing "at least in terms of bust-ness". 



> Seriously, I thought you would save this post until Pierce was dealt.


I actually never thought of that. Good idea though. Don't worry, I'll have it at the ready if/when DA trades Paul for nothing.



> ''I'm one of those guys that will do whatever I have to do to fit in with the team."


hahaha. Who cares? Of course he's going to say that, he sucks. When you're that bad, you can't afford to have an attitude problem. DA might be on to something, though. Let's keep signing/trading for low-talent/high-character guys. Maybe it'll work...


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Since when was it possible for the 53rd pick to be a bust? Additionally, three years at less than a million per isn't exactly going to have a huge effect on the cap, as we won't get under as long as we have Raef, Blount and Pierce under contract. You also need to recognize that Orien Greene is a terrific defensive player and is a 6-5 point guard who will be a player in the league. If Justin Reed was a point guard, he'd probably be Orien Greene.

I also don't entirely see how Ainge screwed us out of getting someone good. Who was good that was available for the MLE at PF? Abdur-Rahim probably wouldn't come here and I am certain that Ainge gave it a shot.

As much as I think its ridiculous to give Scalabrine a 5 year deal, its cheap enough that Ainge will be able to move him easly when he needs to.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

> hahaha. Who cares? Of course he's going to say that, he sucks. *When you're that bad, you can't afford to have an attitude problem.*


See Eric Williams last season. I'll take a 12th man who knows his role and is pumped to do that role. I see that as a positive. 



> DA might be on to something, though. Let's keep signing/trading for low-talent/high-character guys. Maybe it'll work...


Right. Danny has a history of doing that. Like Ricky Davis. Oh wait...he was high talent low character. And now he's high talent high character.

Or maybe Danny should sign a 12th man who also has a bad attitude.


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## cos (May 15, 2005)

Hey P-Dub, quit your crying. No one called and asked you if it was alright if the Celtics could sign Scalabrine. 

Why not give the guy a chance and see what happens. Have you considered that?

Have you considered that without Walker, there will be only Jefferson and LaFrentz to play the 4. What if LaFrentz goes down, then what do we do? 

Scalabrine is a backup and I am sure he understands that, but most likely will bust his *** to do what is needed. He can hit the outside shot to create space for the other guys and will crash the boards. 

Relax, sit-back, and wait to see what happens when the games are played.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Hey P-Dub, quit your crying.


Don't tell me what to do. As long as I'm able to access this site, I'll express my opinion if I damn well please. I'm bitter about Scalabrine and went overboard. 



> No one called and asked you if it was alright if the Celtics could sign Scalabrine.


They should have. We'd be better off right now.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Causeway said:


> See Eric Williams last season. I'll take a 12th man who knows his role and is pumped to do that role. I see that as a positive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, I wouldn't call him a high character guy. He's in the middle area at the moment, which is much better than where he was before.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> Link:
> 
> ''I'm one of those guys that will do whatever I have to do to fit in with the team."


Oh geez, does that include shoot *gasp* 40%? And give back about 8 of those 15 million?




Greene Topic:

He was a good signing, we need a backup PG, because I surely don't want Banks to be the only point guard on the team. It's only a 1 year guaranteed contract so it's nothing to get killed over...unlike Veal's.





agoo said:


> Who was good that was available for the MLE at PF?


Who cares who was available, if we couldn't have signed no one good now, why give this guy a ridiculously long and big contract?





cos said:


> Scalabrine is a backup


That's exactly the point, 15 million for 1 back up, 50 for another, and 60 for the 3rd? That's almost 20 million per year for 3 average backups...2 sub-average (Blount and Veal).


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

Scalabrine is in his prime and is better than a washed up Googs, first of all. Googs was awful. The main reason why Ainge signed Scalabrine was because he could give serviceable backup minutes and not complain about his role. We don't know exactly what to expect from Jefferson and Perkins, we have no reason to expect anything good from Blount, and if Raef gets hurt our froncourt could be in serious trouble. Scalabrine is a hard worker and a good character guy who should be a rich man's Walter McCarty. If Ainge decided that he's an ideal 9th man, which he very well might be, then there is nothing wrong with locking him up for 4 years plus an option for cheap.

As for Orien, who cares? He's getting paid essentially nothing. If he busts, it really doesn't hurt us. If he turns out to be alright, they get three super cheap years from him and early Bird rights, I believe. This is low risk, moderate reward.


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## Delontes Herpes (May 11, 2005)

> Who cares who was available, if we couldn't have signed no one good now, why give this guy a ridiculously long and big contract?


Ridiculously long and big? I think you mean long and ridiculously small.






> That's exactly the point, 15 million for 1 back up, 50 for another, and 60 for the 3rd? That's almost 20 million per year for 3 average backups...2 sub-average (Blount and Veal).


So this is a bad signing because Raef and Blount are already overpaid? That makes no sense. Besides, his contract is NOTHING next to what they're getting paid. And Raef is an ok starter/excellent backup, Blount is an average backup. You're selling them short here.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

> Oh geez, does that include shoot *gasp* 40%? And give back about 8 of those 15 million?


You didn't seem to have a problem with Walker's shooting % at 14 plus million a year. Why worry about Scabs at 3 mil a year?


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

cos said:


> Hey P-Dub, quit your crying. No one called and asked you if it was alright if the Celtics could sign Scalabrine.
> 
> Why not give the guy a chance and see what happens. Have you considered that?
> 
> ...


You make some good points cos. Especially on the lack of depth at the 4. However P-Dub is entitled to his opinion. That's the whole point of these things.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Again, ORIEN GREENE CANNOT BE A BUST. He was the 53rd pick.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

OK, agoo. He can't be a bust. Lemme rephrase:

He will suck.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Delontes Herpes said:


> Ridiculously long and big? I think you mean long and ridiculously small.


There's absolutely no need for him for 5 years. And no, I did mean ridiculously long and big. 15 million is a lot for a scrub...and if he's only a "rich man's Walter McCarty" there's a lot of things wrong with offering him 15 million. For the sake of the Celtics salary situation, that is a awful deal.




> So this is a bad signing because Raef and Blount are already overpaid? That makes no sense. Besides, his contract is NOTHING next to what they're getting paid. And Raef is an ok starter/excellent backup, Blount is an average backup. You're selling them short here.


It makes a ton of sense. If Raef and Blount are ALREADY overpaid and on the team...ready to be backups by the end of the season, why in the world do we need another guy to back them up? Plus I'd rather see Gomes play at PF than Veal.

Raef and Blount are overpaid to be starters, not to mention how much they'll be overpaid to be backups...and then add a guy we didn't really need...bam 2/5's of the cap gone to backups.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> You didn't seem to have a problem with Walker's shooting % at 14 plus million a year. Why worry about Scabs at 3 mil a year?


Toine's a 3 time all-star? Veal's a cheerleader? AND VEAL SHOOTS WORSE THAN WALKER?

Oh and the fact that Walker's a million times the player that Veal is...


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

P-Dub34 said:


> OK, agoo. He can't be a bust. Lemme rephrase:
> 
> He will suck.



Even though my opinion on Greene is nutural, it really doesn't matter if he's a "bust" or if he'll "suck" it's a 1 year guarantee, and plus he doesn't cost us much...unlike a PF we just signed.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> Toine's a 3 time all-star? Veal's a cheerleader? AND VEAL SHOOTS WORSE THAN WALKER?
> 
> Oh and the fact that Walker's a million times the player that Veal is...



Allstar schmallstar. Tom Gugliotta is also a former allstar. Not impressed. Walker when he was on Dallas went as far as to say he wanted to go back to the East so he could have a shot at being an allstar. Nice mentality.

And Veal BARELY shoots worse than Walker. Both of their FG % blows. Veal can hit a free throw though.

And I think more importantly Veal knows his role. Walker should try that.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> Allstar schmallstar. Tom Gugliotta is also a former allstar.


And Tom doesn't have a chance to ever make it again, Toine does.



> Walker when he was on Dallas went as far as to say he wanted to go back to the East so he could have a shot at being an allstar. Nice mentality.


When Walker was in Dallas, he was their only guy who could have been considered an All-Star on that team, and his chances of making the team were really good considering that the West has about 10 potential All-Stars.



> And Veal BARELY shoots worse than Walker. Both of their FG % blows. Veal can hit a free throw though.
> 
> And I think more importantly Veal knows his role. Walker should try that.


He shoots 2% less than Walker...at the time when Pierce shot 2% more than Walker, people were calling Paul God and Walker Devil.

And Doc, please tell us what Walker's roll is? Just pass and rebound? A 20 ppg scorer should only get garbage points and pass to Tony Allen and Delonte West to shoot.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

> And Tom doesn't have a chance to ever make it again, Toine does.


_Maybe_. If he drastically changes his game.



> When Walker was in Dallas, he was their only guy who could have been considered an All-Star on that team,


you can not be serious. he was far from an allstar in Dallas. And the "only guy who could have been considered an All-Star on that team"?? For starters have you heard of a guy named Dirk?



> And Doc, please tell us what Walker's roll is? Just pass and rebound? A 20 ppg scorer should only get garbage points and pass to Tony Allen and Delonte West to shoot.


Yes that would be great. I'd take him if he'd do that. He scores 20 points because he shoots so damn much. He is very inefficient.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> When Walker was in Dallas, he was their only guy who could have been considered an All-Star on that team



i definitely agree with causeway on this one...have you forgotten about a couple of ppl who were on that dallas team with toine by the name of nash and nowitzki???


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> _Maybe_. If he drastically changes his game.


He was a all-star the way he plays now.



> you can not be serious. he was far from an allstar in Dallas. And the "only guy who could have been considered an All-Star on that team"?? For starters have you heard of a guy named Dirk?


During a big stretch of the season, to about just before the All-Star game, only Walker was playing like one. Finley, Dirk, Nash and Jamison were all so much below him that Nellie called Walker his "only All-Star" at one point. For starters, have you followed the team at all?


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> i definitely agree with causeway on this one...have you forgotten about a couple of ppl who were on that dallas team with toine by the name of nash and nowitzki???


Nope, I can name most of the team.

Dirk, Nash, Finley, Jamison, Howard, Danniels, Best, Bradley. That was about their core. Still doesn't change the fact that the Mavs' coach called Antoine his "only all-star" just a few weeks before the break. Dirk, was playing like crap.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> Nope, I can name most of the team.
> 
> Dirk, Nash, Finley, Jamison, Howard, Danniels, Best, Bradley. That was about their core. Still doesn't change the fact that the Mavs' coach called Antoine his "only all-star" just a few weeks before the break. Dirk, was playing like crap.




ok maybe they were playing below par...but just cuz nellie said that doesnt mean it was tru...he prob was just trying to light a fire under the *** of the rest of his team...needless to say im the biggest walker fan but to call him the only all star calibur player on that dallas team is ridiculous


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> ok maybe they were playing below par...but just cuz nellie said that doesnt mean it was tru...he prob was just trying to light a fire under the *** of the rest of his team...needless to say im the biggest walker fan but to call him the only all star calibur player on that dallas team is ridiculous


FOR A BIG STRETCH OF THE SEASON.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> ok maybe they were playing below par...but just cuz nellie said that doesnt mean it was tru...he prob was just trying to light a fire under the *** of the rest of his team...needless to say im the biggest walker fan but to call him the only all star calibur player on that dallas team is ridiculous



Also go and read the Mavs board before the All-Star game and before Toine asked to get out, most people loved him. Called him a "genious."


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Every Maverick fan I've ever conversed with, whether it be on message boards or real life, was ecstatic to see Walker leave town.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

aquaitious said:


> Also go and read the Mavs board before the All-Star game and before Toine asked to get out, most people loved him. Called him a "genious."


I lived in the DFW area at that time. He wasn't liked.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> Mavs' coach called Antoine his "only all-star" just a few weeks before the break. Dirk, was playing like crap.



Coaches say many things for many reasons. Anyone who watches basketball - to say Walker was the only allstar on that team - is missing something.

And don't forget - the Mavs traded Walker not too long after that comment by Nellie.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

P-Dub34 said:


> Every Maverick fan I've ever conversed with, whether it be on message boards or real life, was ecstatic to see Walker leave town.


Yes, after he made the comments that he wants to leave. The Mavs had 3 PF's playing out of position. And Walker did nothing great in the 2nd half.



cpawfan said:


> I lived in the DFW area at that time. He wasn't liked.


He wasn't? He wasn't loved the first half of the season? He wasn't the best player during the first part of the season when Dirk struggled, Jamison and Nash played average and Finley did nothing? Are you 100% sure?



Causeway said:


> Coaches say many things for many reasons. Anyone who watches basketball - to say Walker was the only allstar on that team - is missing something.
> 
> And don't forget - the Mavs traded Walker not too long after that comment by Nellie.


If by "not too long" you mean 5-6 months later, then yeah, he was. Nellie made that comment when Toine was the only one playing like an All-Star...when he had 2 straight trippled doubles people loved him. 

Toine was the man in the first half of the season. _After_ that he wasn't liked.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> Also go and read the Mavs board before the All-Star game and before Toine asked to get out,* most people loved him. Called him a "genious."*


I find this very hard to believe. I know people can be homers - but a "genius"? Walker? Come on.



> Every Maverick fan I've ever conversed with, whether it be on message boards or real life, was ecstatic to see Walker leave town.





> I lived in the DFW area at that time. He wasn't liked.


Both of the above sounds more like it.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> I find this very hard to believe. I know people can be homers - but a "genius"? Walker? Come on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Go read the Mavs board. You think I'm pulling this out of my ***?


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> Go read the Mavs board. You think I'm pulling this out of my ***?


No idea. All I know is if a Mavs fan did call Walker a "genius" - that fan is an idiot. And I would not go around quoting that fan - if he does exist - to make a point.

And cpawfan who lived in the area during Walkers time there said he was far from a fan favorite.

But if you really saw this - post a link.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> No idea. All I know is if a Mavs fan did call Walker a "genius" - that fan is an idiot. And I would not go around quoting that fan - if he does exist - to make a point.


He was respected there by many people.



> And cpawfan who lived in the area during Walkers time there said he was far from a fan favorite.


CP never answered if it was before or after the all-star break, because as I've stated a number of times, Toine was loved before it.



> But if you really saw this - post a link.


http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=18

Mavs forum, do a search on Antoine Walker and read the posts before the break.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> Mavs forum, do a search on Antoine Walker and read the posts before the break.


No thanks. If want to state that a Mavs fan called Walker a "genius" to back up your own statement - you should find the link. Not me. 

Either way it does not really matter. If the guy said it and you agree I'd say that makes 2 of you.

Now when does the Walker trade or FA signing happen so we can move on?


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## Drk Element (Nov 10, 2004)

sit back and wait till the season starts, and trade paul pierce to the lakers for cash considerations.:biggrin:


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

01-18-2004, 12:46 AM:

 <table class="tborder" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="1" width="100%"> <tbody><tr><td class="tcat" colspan="4"> View Poll Results: Antoine Walker as a Maverick </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1" width="50%"> He's better then I thought </td> <td class="alt2" width="50%"> 





















 </td> <td class="alt1" title="Votes" align="center">*8*</td> <td class="alt2" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">61.54%</td> </tr><tr> <td class="alt1" width="50%"> Just as I thought (good) </td> <td class="alt2" width="50%"> 





















 </td> <td class="alt1" title="Votes" align="center">*3*</td> <td class="alt2" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">23.08%</td> </tr><tr> <td class="alt1" width="50%"> Just as I thought (bad) </td> <td class="alt2" width="50%"> 





















 </td> <td class="alt1" title="Votes" align="center">*0*</td> <td class="alt2" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">0%</td> </tr><tr> <td class="alt1" width="50%"> Give me Raef's 63 Million contract back. </td> <td class="alt2" width="50%"> 





















 </td> <td class="alt1" title="Votes" align="center">*2*</td> <td class="alt2" align="right" nowrap="nowrap">15.38%</td> </tr> <tr> <td class="tfoot" colspan="4" align="center">Voters: *13*.</td></tr></tbody> </table> 
*Link

*


> *Great Pickup*





> <hr style="color: rgb(37, 48, 128);" size="1"> When I first heard he was coming, I thought of another guy with a lawn-chair at the 3-point line. But he's pleasantly suprised me with his rebounding, and smooth transition into the offense. He's been much better than I expected, not just relying on his scoring ability, but being above average in the clutch, rebounding, and shot selection departments, and gets extra points for stepping up early in the season when the big 3 was not exactly on fire.






> He is just as good as I have always maintained, but then I have seen just about every game he's played(directv league pass since '95).
> 
> He fits in - because he is totally unselfish when it comes to the game.
> If he's told or sees the need to help with the rebounds - done.
> ...


 *_____________________________________________

Which Mavs should be All-Stars
_____________________________________________
*
*Yes!!*




> The game was awesome, great battle beetween Bryant-Nash. Those two were pushing each other. Fortson handled Shaq pretty well. Howard was awesome for guarding Kobe. Wow....this rook was a sleeper. Josh Howard was handling Kobe pretty well and Howard knows what not to do in the NBA, I guess college ball showed him a lot.
> 
> *Antoine walker is a genius!* Dirk shows no fear after getting flagrant by Shaq, he still goes into the basket. Outscored, out rebounded, out-assisted the Lakers. Great win.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Props for the research Premier. Hopefully that guy Tristan was drunk when he wrote that. I wonder if you PM'd him now what his opinion would be.

That poll is a little flawed since only 13 people voted but it is what it is.

And it's how you finish. Now how you start.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Funny.

They love him when he's playing well.

And hate him when he's playing poorly.

Who'd a thunk it??


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> Funny.
> 
> They love him when he's playing well.
> 
> ...




lol sounds like the fans of a certain team around here huh???


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> lol sounds like the fans of a certain team around here huh???


Really, every team around here.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Actually, even when Walker is playing very well in Boston, some fans still find a way to criticize him.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Premier said:


> Actually, even when Walker is playing very well in Boston, some fans still find a way to criticize him.


(cough) lanteri (cough)



kiddinggggggggggggggg :biggrin:


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Actually, even when Walker is playing very well in Boston, some fans still find a way to criticize him.


That's true too. But any big sports city (New York, Boston) that'll happen if you're not a fan fave. 



> He has a high basketball iq


HAHAHAHAHA.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

His basketball IQ is certaintly above average, especially when he's not jacking up three's and hijacking the offense.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> His basketball IQ is certaintly above average, especially when he's not jacking up three's and hijacking the offense.


sorry but that's pretty much saying "take away his dumbness and he's pretty smart".


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Even including his main issue with three-pointers and such, his basketball IQ is still high.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> sorry but that's pretty much saying "take away his dumbness and he's pretty smart".


I really don't think I could have said it better myself.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Premier said:


> Even including his main issue with three-pointers and such, his basketball IQ is still high.




if theres on thing you cant question with toine its him knowing the game of basketball...i think working out with MJ back in chicago all those times really helped him learn the game


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

He could know everything there is to know about basketball. But as long as he keeps making retarded decisions (remember that three pointer vs. Utah in the last minute or so that had Doc pulling his hair out? You wouldn't expect a rook to make a decision that brutal) or taking three pointers off the break (which lead to fastbreak opportunities for the opposition), or going on the 1 on 3 rushes where his own teammates can't believe that he didn't give up the rock, it means zilch.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

I would say that the presence of Antoine's positive plays far outweigh his negative plays in terms of basketball IQ. He is very good at finding that extra pass and setting screens where appropriate. Also, his rebounding fundamentals is superb. His decision making is "okay", but the other things he does make him a player with an above average basketball IQ.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> I would say that the presence of Antoine's positive plays far outweigh his negative plays in terms of basketball IQ.


I'd have to disagree. 

Setting a nice screen makes up for taking 25 shots and shooting 35% on a given night? Come on now.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

No, but if we're talking Walkers' average performance of 17-18 points per game on 7-17 shooting including his 8-10 rebounds and 4-5 assists, then yes, his positive play outweighs his negative play.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Games where Walker shoots 17 times I'm happy with. It's when he gets above 20 I freak out.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

His average is just under 18.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Premier said:


> His average is just under 18.




actually in his last go-around wit the c's his avg was 15 shots a game...(364 fga in 24 games)...can most ppl live with that??...3 or 4 shots a quarter??


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

His career average is a shade over 18, though, but I think Antoine can limit himself to 15 shots next season depending on who he signs with.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Antoine taking 15 shots a night would be terrific. Of course, its not entirely likely with the current rumors.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Antoine won't be taking all too much shots in Miami.


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