# Doleac



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Anybody hear the Isiah interview on WFAN. He didn't vome right out and say it but it sounds like there's a good chance Doleac is coming back.

That TT trade is looking better all the time.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

All the time? You mean, like the times of day I'm not saying gee, we really downgraded our rebounding, didn't we?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Doleac btw, can only be picked up by the Knicks if no other team claims him off waivers. Since IT said he would wait until after Doleac clears to move to re-sign him. Since there are a few contenders that need relatively cheap big men, don't get your hopes up just yet. Nor should you think that a 3rd string center will make or break the Knicks anymore than Vin Baker would.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> All the time? You mean, like the times of day I'm not saying gee, we really downgraded our rebounding, didn't we?


I'm not about to look up the stats but I'm assuming that TT+Nazr is equal or better than VH+Doleac for rebounds.

I'm also trying to not be too myopic about every trade. Each is a piece of a puzzle or a part of a process.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Doleac btw, can only be picked up by the Knicks if no other team claims him off waivers. Since IT said he would wait until after Doleac clears to move to re-sign him. Since there are a few contenders that need relatively cheap big men, don't get your hopes up just yet.


I agree other teams will want him. So the deal is we have to wait until there are no suitors, or Isiah said that is what he'd do.



> Nor should you think that a 3rd string center will make or break the Knicks anymore than Vin Baker would.


Good advice, thanks. Unless you think one is a chior boy and good for team chemistry and the other is an alcoholic and a disruptive influence.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

If you're so concerned with chemistry, then why are you in favor of the Van Horn trade?


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

All this talk about the Van Horn chemistry... First off, I don't think they love each other, or were truly comfortable playing together. It may have gotten better, but it may hove gotten worse.

And in case you haven't noticed, Marbury's on-court chemistry has been outstanding with EVERYBODY!!!! Jeesh, Houston is a gimp, but Penny, Harrington, Doleac, Thomas... Some of these guys have never looked so good in their careers. Can we look at Marbury's chemistry with TT, and see how the team plays by the end of the season before we declare the sky down from the trading of one decent player for another?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Jeesh, Houston is a gimp, but Penny, Harrington, Doleac, Thomas... Some of these guys have never looked so good in their careers.


Penny? Huh? Not only did he play better in Orlando, but he played just as well, if not better in PHOENIX.

Furthermore, Harrington, Doleac, and Thomas were making the same contributions BEFORE Marbury showed up. Thomas and Doleac had been running pick and rolls all season long. Harrington has been crashing the boards for easy scores all season long. Maybe you just didn't pay attention to them until the team got Marbury.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Maybe you just read the boxscores and don't watch the games.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Penny? Huh? Not only did he play better in Orlando, but he played just as well, if not better in PHOENIX.
> ...


Rashidi, what a stickler forthe truth you are regardling Penny in Orlando. I took it for granted that you'd give me enough credit to know he was better before his injuries, when he was an all-star and on track to be in the HOF.

I'm not going to chase down all those players pre and post trade stats, but I'd love to see them if you do. Particularly if you subtract those first two games where Marbury and Penny barely knew the plays. 

But back to Penny:

ISIAH HEARS PENNY OFFERS 
By MARC BERMAN 
New York Post

February 19, 2004 -- Penny Hardaway's inspired play since joining the Knicks
on Jan. 5 has been a relevation to fans - and other league GMs. 

Suns GM Bryan Colangelo spent two seasons trying to trade Hardaway and his
contract and found mild interest. Yesterday, according to sources, Isiah
Thomas was actually fielding inquiries about Hardaway before today's 3 p.m.
trading deadline.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Nope, I've watched most of the games this season. Perhaps you'd like to actually go in depth to explain how their chemistry is so vastly improved? They've all scored the same way this season. They're hitting the same shots. KT and Doleac have been hitting from mid-range all season long. Harrington has been an underrated force off the bench all season long. This has not changed with the addition of Marbury.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Suns GM Bryan Colangelo spent two seasons trying to trade Hardaway and his


Maybe it has something to do with the 5 years he had left on the contract? If he's been trying for 2 years, and he has 3 years left, who wants a broken Penny for that long? It's also hard to trade Penny when he's injured, which he frequently was in Phoenix. Trading Penny in a small deal is nearly impossible because of his contract. Teams may have "interest" in Penny, but thats as far as it goes. Don't forget he only makes how much more than Howard Eisley? He obviously has some value in a multi-player deal, but don't kid yourself into thinking he'll ever be the focal point of one.

Besides, weren't you the one who asked when the last time the Post was right about anything?


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## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> If you're so concerned with chemistry, then why are you in favor of the Van Horn trade?





> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Nope, I've watched most of the games this season. Perhaps you'd like to actually go in depth to explain how their chemistry is so vastly improved? They've all scored the same way this season. They're hitting the same shots. KT and Doleac have been hitting from mid-range all season long. Harrington has been an underrated force off the bench all season long. This has not changed with the addition of Marbury.


I didn't watch enough games this season so I can't give a very valid response, but if I am reading correctly, you are saying that nothing changed when Marbury came, right? Players were doing the same things as before. So, while maybe Marbury didn't increase team chemistry, he didn't hurt it either. Everything is the same with the addition of Marbury, so why should anything change with Van Horn leaving? It's not like Van Horn was a leader of the team. The Van Horn trade doesn't hurt the knicks chemistry IMO.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Perhaps you'd like to actually go in depth to explain how their chemistry is so vastly improved? They've all scored the same way this season. They're hitting the same shots. KT and Doleac have been hitting from mid-range all season long. Harrington has been an underrated force off the bench all season long. This has not changed with the addition of Marbury.


Doleac's stats are no longer on NBA.com but I'd expect a similar trend.

Last 5 games:
Othella ave 10 ppg
KT (injured finger) ave 16.2 ppg

Season ave:
Othella 5.0 ppg
KT 11.8

I'm not doing the math but their FG% show similar improvement.

Oh, and by the way:

Last 5 games;
Van Horn 14 ppg
Season 16.4 ppg

I assure you, the chemistry is from Marbury, not VH.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

LMAO. I thought you told me all I look at are box scores? So how come when you do, it's valid?


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> LMAO. I thought you told me all I look at are box scores? So how come when you do, it's valid?


You deny the obvious. I'm trying to appeal to your own sense of logic. How else can I reach you?

*Lord, tell me, how can I reach this wayward soul?*


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Those stats are find and dandy, but what about the other 15 games or so of Marbury's tenure? Kind of silly to make you assumption based on 25% of the sample size.

Harrington's numbers are inflated because he played 41 minutes in Dallas when KT got kicked out (it didn't hurt that Deke DNP), and then started in place of him in the next game. Harrington is getting more minutes as Mutombo is getting less, which is why his board numbers have gone up.

Let's look at his past 10 games, rather than 5.

vs Pistons
14 points (season high)
9 rebounds
5-8 FG
28 minutes

vs Hornets
9 points
7 rebounds
3-5 FG
31 minutes (started for KT)

vs Mavericks
11 points
13 rebounds (season high)
5-10 FG
41 minutes (season high, KT ejected, Mutombo DNP)

vs Clippers
6 points
8 rebounds
2-4 FG
24 minutes

vs Heat
10 points
6 rebounds
4-8 FG
26 minutes

vs Pacers
4 points
2 rebounds
2-3 FG
13 minutes

vs Suns
2 points
1 rebounds
1-1 FG
10 minutes

vs Celtics
4 points
2 rebounds
2-6 FG
17 minutes (FOULED OUT)

vs Spurs
10 points
2 rebounds
4-10 FG
27 minutes

vs Heat
1 point
1 rebound
0-0 FG
15 minutes

Earlier in the season under Don Chaney, Harrington had 11 points and 11 boards vs the Mavs in 38 minutes. Prior to that, Harrington had yet to log more than 23 minutes in a game. Gee, minutes couldn't POSSIBLY be the reason for his improvement.

The difference between Othella when he gets more than 20 minutes, and less than 20 minutes, is quite large.

Last season Othella averaged 7.7 ppg and 6.4 rpg, with a .502 FG%, on 25 mpg. This year he's getting 5.0 and 3.5 with a .527 FG% in 16 minutes. Please note how Harrington has played at least 24 minutes in his last 5 games.

So you are pretty much attributing one good week of consistent minutes, err, good play, to Stephon Marbury, and not to an increased role on the team.

And since Marbury is "Zeke's protege" does that mean he is responsible for the chemistry too? Should we get on our hands and knees and praise Marbury and IT everytime a bench player makes a basket?

Doleac in his last 5 games

vs Hornets
2 points
1 rebound
1-2 FG
14 minutes

vs Mavericks
4 points
7 rebounds
1-4 FG
14 minutes

vs Clippers
0 points
3 rebounds
0-6 FG
11 minutes

vs Heat
2 points
5 rebounds
1-5 FG
17 minutes

vs Pacers
11 points
6 rebounds
5-10 FG
25 minutes

Total over 5 games
19 points (3.8 ppg)
22 rebounds (4.4 rpg)
8-27 FG
81 minutes (16.2 mpg)

Chemistry INDEED...


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Please note that Doleac and Harrington essentially battle each other for minutes. When you look at the box score, it shows that Harrington gets more minutes when Doleac does not play, and vice versa. This helps explain why Harrington has gotten more minutes lately, because after Doleac had a good week, he stopped playing, probably because the team showcased him that week to set him up for a trade.

It's also worth noting that Harrington missed training camp with injury, and most people including myself wrote him off the roster. Everybody thought he'd be traded so the team could sign Matt Carroll. And when McDyess returned, that further reduced his role. And KT is starting at PF this year, not C. All these factors lead to fewer minutes.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

rashidi,i am not sure the point you are making,but isnt it obvious the impact that marbury has had on this team???

We arent 11 and 5 for no reason.......I think we had a better post game religous service with preacher ward,but we are playing better ball with Marbs....

Dunleavy flat out said Marbury and Thomas are playing the best 2 man game in basketball.....penny is producing,as will TT.....harrington is a garbage type player so I could be running th point and it wouldnt affect his game....

Can you please tell me what the hell chemistry means to you???
Can a team that wins .333 of its games have good chemistry????

Winning is good chemistry......


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> Those stats are find and dandy, but what about the other 15 games or so of Marbury's tenure? Kind of silly to make you assumption based on 25% of the sample size.


Obviously stats are plastic and either of us can manipulate them to serve our needs. I'm no more swayed by yours than you are by mine. I consider the last 5 games more relevant than the last 10 because this team is still just getting to know itself, and it's ultimate chemistry is far from known.

But this started as a discussion about chemistry and Van Horn. You implied if I cared about team chemistry I shouldn't dare support his trade. 

1) Our winning percentage was better with Spree in the line-up last year than it was with VH this year, and that was without the contributions of Mutombo. 

2) We won while VH was out injured, even when we were in the midst of losing in general.

2) We just beat the Pistons without VH.

Either of us can choose to find situational stats to support our respective cases, which is why I don't want to get too caught up in them. But I watch the games too, and I see the efficiency with which the knicks are beginning to play with Marbury, vs Eisley/Ward. And I see all our shooters, not just VH, getting better looks. I see no reason that opportunity and efficiency wont apply to VHs replacement too, whoever he may be. I also see opportunities to run, or alley-oop, that we have not been able to avail ourselves of, because of a lack of athleticism. And I assert, when we start getting some of those easy opportunities from TT and DJ, and post contributions from Nazr and Sweetney, as well as the continued hustle from Othella, and the sweet shooting of KT, and the glorious return of our beloved shooter, Houston, we will not rue the day we let a couple of extra rebounds from VH go. It will not spoil our joyousness as we witness the transformation of our heroes from losers to winners, and hail their procession to the hallowed grounds where playoffs are won.

Ney, Rashidi, those of us on the side of righteousness will attend the Square Garden Colliseum, or witness them from our TV altars, and we will cheer all our Knick gladiators -- not just the ones who we predicted would be good -- as they fend off their mighty opponents. Because for us, it is not about our egos, but our love for the warriors who fight for what's right: to assiduously work their way higher and higher, until one day they regain their proper place in the pantheon on the game, as Eastern Conference Champions.

And I fear for you, that you should spend those days of glory alone in a darkended room, lit only by the sickly tepid blue light of your computer screen. There you will sit imbibing wiskey, or chocholate milk, whichever gives solace to your tired soul, with merciless gluttony, trying to swell the tides of pain. You will be auditing all your pagan numbers, and calculating and recalculation all your equations, trying to see how you were so wrong, and missed the boat by so much. You then realize your folly, for you will know you got caught up the trickery and charisma of a false prophet, the one they call Laydown, and you will mourn for your lost pride and dignity, which were stolen from you by him.

I want better for you my friend, my loyal Knick fan friend. Put down your pencils, lay down your doubts. The truth lie not in the statistical foibles of man, but in thine eyes, in the god given sight that He bestowed you with. Open thine eyes and see with us the power and the glory that He hath delivered. His name is Stephon, and he is the word. Glory, glory hallelujah.

Can I get a witness!


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If that doesnt work,NOTHING will...............

I think you are the chosen one to lead him from the path of Layden darkness


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I hope that wasn't too weird. I'm just bored of all the all-star and trade deadline nonsence. I wanna see some hoops already.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> I hope that wasn't too weird. I'm just bored of all the all-star and trade deadline nonsence. I wanna see some hoops already.


No ****, play ball already.


Anyway, I like getting Doleac back but I don't think it's possible. He is a good locker room guy. A good roleplayer, and a nice weapon to have. Hopefully he'll be back.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Doleac is going to be claimed by Denver today.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Well, Denver just signed Doleac. Personally, I really don't care. For all you New York fans, is he anything to get excited about?


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

No. It's just that a day or two ago we feared losing Kurt Thomas, a good mid-range shooter. And our bonafide shooter, Houston, has whacked out knees.

Oh and some people are really afraid for this team because we traded a white guy who averaged 16ppg for a black one who averages 14ppg. But the black one plays better in the playoffs while the white one plays worse. Oh the horror.

So Doleac's touch was appreciated, but hardly essential. He's just decent, and for the price Denver is getting him he's a steal, but he's not anything to get overly excited about.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> 
> Oh and some people are really afraid for this team because we traded a white guy who averaged 16ppg for a black one who averages 14ppg. But the black one plays better in the playoffs while the white one plays worse. Oh the horror.


Man do you even read posts? Race was peripheral issue at best. 

With KVH we had, better shooting, better chemistry, better rebounding, and a better attitdue, and as hilarious as it sounds, a better defender.

With TT we have. We have less in all those categories, an attitude problem, but, WE DO HAVE SOMEONE WHO CAN OCCASIONALLY DUNK THE BALL ON THE OCCASIONAL FAST BREAK YEEEAAAHH!! WHOOPPPPEEEE!!!!


When you make a trade like that that seems to be a downgrade people start to ask why. With zeke the most apparent things have been his action and comments regarding white players. 


That's the whole point of this trade. We are all knick fans, I could give a **** what race is on this team. But when you lose more than you gain via a trade, I get pissed.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Two question for ya KBF, 

1) While we do lose 2 ppg and 2 RBG between VH and TT. do we gain nothing in the Doleac to Nazr equation? Do you see no good from the trade in that it's VH+Doeac, for TT+Nazr? Do you think we didn't need to get younger and quicker at the center, if not for now but the future?

2) How can you possibly assert we had "better chemistry and attitude" from VH when TT has yet to play a game here? So far his attitude to be here is fantastic, it's his lifes dream. I mean give us your hunch all you like, that's what we all do here, but lets be clear, it's just your hunch.

As for Zeke being a racist based on the quote to the effect that if Bird were black he'd be just another player. Here's my hunch as to what went down. It was said inside of the Piston's locker room dury the playoffs against their arch rival Celtics. It was said by Rodman, who is not politically correct, and is outrageous by design. My suspicion is that reproters kept asking the Piston's about freaking Bird, who they hate, inside their own locker room. Bird, BTW, was known to have been one of the premier on-court trash talkers, so he was probably under their skin already. Plus, Bird's hype from the media may have been bested only by Jordan.

So here are these guys in the heat of battle, in their own locker rooms, being inundated by the Bird hype, being repeatedly asked about their trash talking arch rival rather than their own team, and Rodman cracked a wise *** statement. Isiah probably thought it was amusing, or just wanted to back his player, and didn't refute it. I'm not aware that Isiah ever actually spoke it. It was non-PC itrash talk in the heat of battle against their trash talking nemisis.

Is it any worse than Shaq referring to the Sac Kings as the Queens? And didn't he make disparaging comments against Yao? And mightn't one of those opponents, in the throws of deep battle against Shaq make a disparaging against him if reporters kept asking how tough is Shaq? Mightn't one say if he weren't so big, or if he didn't get all the calls, or if he didn'ty have Kobe, or yadda yadda yadda, he wouldn't be considered so great?

It's trash talk. Bird didn't seem to bothered by it, but all sorts of other white folk still are almost 20 years later.

Lets get real here for one second, do you honestly think he wouldn't trade anyone on this team, other than perhaps Marbury, for a Dirk or Peja? When he turns down Houston for Dirk I'll be with ya, but Vujanic and Lampe for Marbury... nah.


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## benfica (Jul 17, 2002)

*We got beat up bad by the Jazz*

ALEKSANDAR PAVLOVIC and Greg Ostertag did a number on TT and Nazr.

Where are the Knicks points coming from now.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Pavlovic is just another one of those worthless Europeans that keep getting drafted. But he is certainly better than Darko, Lampe, Vujanic, Pavel, Delfino, and Pietrus, because he has logged more NBA minutes than all of them.

I am wondering why the Ice Man George DerMarr didn't own this guy. His smoothness is now scoring fewer PPG than Maciej Lampe (0.5 to 2.0) and is losing the season scoring battle 6-2.

In related news, Mike Sweetney is now owning Darko "I suck so much that Priest Lauderdale has more NBA minutes than I do" Milicic 29-16 (1.8 to 1.0). Darko has played a mere 54 minutes this NBA season, despite being the #2 pick. This is a clear indicator that Darko will never be worth more to a team than Othella Harrington or Michael Doleac, much less any real star like Tim Thomas. Of course, you could say even worse of the 18 year old Lampe.

In short, George DerMarr, Maciej Lampe, Mike Sweetney, and Darko Milicic, are all < Priest Lauderdale. Oh, and all are > Milos Vujanic, who only has a championship under his belt. Cause if you ain't in the NBA, you got no game, sucka.

Tattoo that on your arm, turkey jerky.


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## benfica (Jul 17, 2002)

*What the heck your talking about Rashi*

The Knicks are heading to the seller mark my words. TT and Nazr will destroy this team. 

This team can't even score 80 points, all you got to do is clamp down Marbury and the game is over.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> This team can't even score 80 points, all you got to do is clamp down Marbury and the game is over.


Easier said than done. But easier than it is to stop Iverson, for sure.


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