# Holy Smokes Rick Carlisle (Pistons Coach) Fired?



## HAWK23

Just heard it on ESPN... Carlisle is fired.... Pistons want to talk to Larry Brown

sorry no link yet... just heard it on ESPN


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## Peja Vu

www.espn.com

Rick Carlisle led the Pistons to the best record in the East and the conference finals in his second season as coach. That was not enough. Carlisle told ESPN The Magazine's Ric Bucher on Friday that he has been fired by the club.


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## Peja Vu

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2003/0530/1561275.html


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## rocketeer

i thought joe dumars was supposed to be a pretty smart guy who was doing a good job as gm. and then they fire carlisle. this makes no sense at all. in his first year as coach, he takes a team that no one really expected much of into the playoffs. his second year, he takes a team that most considered a fluke the year before back to the playoffs and all the way to the conference finals. and then they fire him. that's just stupid. he was the perfect coach for the pistons.


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## JerryWest

Unless they know for certain they can get Larry Brown, that has to be dumbest move I've heard of, of course nothing can top the Celtics trading for Vin Baker


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## Damian Necronamous

This was a dumber move than the firing of Paul Silas. I thought Joe Dumars was smart, it looks like he's just a complete idiot.

Teams without a coach, or searching for a new coach:
Toronto Raptors
Washington Wizards
New Orleans Hornets
Los Angeles Clippers
Houston Rockets
Cleveland Cavaliers
Detroit Pistons
Philadelphia 76ers

Top coaching candidates:
Paul Silas
Jeff Van Gundy
Rick Carlisle
Larry Brown
Lenny Wilkins

Wow! Those are some INCREDIBLE coaches that don't have jobs. INCREDIBLE! It would be wise if the Cavaliers signed Carlisle. He took the Pistons from the bottom to the top, he might be able to do the same thing with Cleveland. But he won't be able to do it in a year.

Joe Dumars is a freaking moron. He fires Carlisle after 2 50 win seasons?! Idiot!


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## Chicago_Cow

The Bulls need to snatch him quick. If guys like Calisle get fired, then BC shouldn't feel bad if his *** gets canned!!!


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## CT

How stupid can Dumars get?  
Carlisle basically led the Pistons to consecutive 50 win seasons, but I guess Dumars felt that wasn't enough. :no:


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## JustinSane

Speaking as a Pistons fan, I'd hold off on the criticism until Dumars says why he fired him. So far, Dumars has had the midas touch, and people were calling him an idiot when he traded Stack last year, too. I've got a few theories that might justify the move. Carlisle is a great coach though, he'll be fine. Somewhere an NBA team just got a lot better, especially on defense. Maybe they are confident they can get Larry Brown, maybe Carlisle couldn't be mananged (too stubburn), maybe he was the wrong guy to develop Darko. I'm sure there is a reason here, and until proven wrong, I'm giving Dumars the benefit of the doubt. I'll tell you what, this move sure took guts, so he has to be pretty confident of being right on this. He's hanging himself out to dry if the Pistons regress and Carlilse goes to the Bulls and starts winning rings in a couple years.. We'll see. Shaping up to be an interesting offseason in Detroit.


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## rwj333

Carlisle is a great defensive coach... 
maybe Dumars didnt like his offensive plan. Carlisle also did some questionable maneuvers in the Nets series i.e. starting rotation. But, there was no reason to trade him, unless he was against drafting Darko or something.

I think Indiana should hire Carlisle back.

If anyone has read ESPN insider of the past few days, you would notice that Darko was being looked at by Dumars, the scouts, the whole team... except Carlisle. Maybe this was already happened, and was just kept quiet. I still dont know why, though.


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## rocketeer

justinsan, i think your name fits this situation perfectly.


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## JustinSane

Thank you, and I'd have to agree.. I'm sure there is a plan here, but as hard as I'm trying to rationalize, it still doesn't seem the best move.. wow.. this is really wierd. He's what, one of the best 3 or 4 coaches in basketball? I do hope Dumars knows what he's doing. But as I said, until it is proven that he doesn't, I'm gonna trust him on this.


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## HKF

I think I have a feeling why this happened. Dumars has seen for two years that they have struggled to score in the playoffs way too regularly.

Last year they got murdered by the Celtics in 5 games and then this year they almost lost to Orlando the 8th seed and Philly could have beat them too and then the Nets just throttled them.

I think the lack of scoring and rebounding help for Ben Wallace and the last two seasons of playoff exits has left a bad taste in Dumars mouth. The Pistons have good players and Dumars believes that they should be able to run and score close to a 100 and still defend like they have been. There is no excuse for scoring 70 pts in the playoffs in a few games they have played.


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## 7M3

What a joke... The Pistons are one of the least offensively and athletically talented teams in the entire league and Rick led them to the best record in the East.


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## NugzFan

what a joke...how could you fire this guy?


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## shazha

Sounds like there is more to this situation than meets the eye. If Carlisle is strictly a defensive coach, then why didn't they just offer him a assistant coach position once they hire larry brown. It doesnt make sense to get rid of the coach of the year from last year, totally. 

There must be a personal vandetta, or some argument that sparked. Or they may be trying to attract a player who is close to larry brown or something. Im not gonna flip till the press conferrence. But this is quite odd indeed. Larry brown is also a great defensive coach and my fav coach in the league. But he isn't known for developing youngsters/rookies. Brown hates errand shots, and unorganised play. This is maybe why detroit could be a good fit. 

Should be an interesting off season once the draft is over. I think only then will we know where coaches are heading. I think torronto really needs a new coach. Lenny is just over the hill now. Torronto need someone to yell at em not pretend to be the zen master.


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## Pookie

These type of comments are completley inappropiate. Consider this your offical warning!


rynobot


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## NYC Orange

how stupid can you be?

he got you to the Eastern Finals without even having a monster superstar on the team and had the best record in the conference this year and you fire him. this probably the stupidest firing i've ever heard of. i hope they don't get Larry Brown and they fall hard just like what they deserve

your welcome to come to NY Carlisle we certainly could use a new HC


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## JaK

I honestly couldn't believe this happen until I read the reports on NBA.com... I was driving home from the club and I thought I must of had to much to drink cuz I heard on the radio that RC was fired from the Pistons... I thought.. No way... I didn't think I had that much to drink!

To much of my shigrin (sp?) it's apparently at the time being a speculation but almost a certain one... I can't believe it...

JD deserves some credit for the success of his team, but a majority of it has to be pointed at RC... I won't repeat of others sincere opinions of RC acomplishments but I have to admit that this is a crock... 

Pistons better get JVG or someone with similar credentials...


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## MemphisX

> Originally posted by <b>NYC Orange</b>!
> how stupid can you be?
> 
> he got you to the Eastern Finals without even having a monster superstar on the team and had the best record in the conference this year and you fire him. this probably the stupidest firing i've ever heard of. i hope they don't get Larry Brown and they fall hard just like what they deserve
> 
> your welcome to come to NY Carlisle we certainly could use a new HC


Bad karma usually comes from decisions like this...bad karma.

Maybe Joe D, is reading HIS press clippings.

Why would you want Larry brown? He had a more talented team and your team beat his.:whoknows:


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## Pookie

My God! I know why Joe Dumars fired Rick Carlisle!

Joe D was searching for porn on Kazaa and came across a hot video starring his wife and Rick Carlisle!

6th grade humor aside, I'm not sure why the Pistons did this, but Im happy they did seeing as how the Pacers now have 1 less rival for the Eastern Conference Championship next year


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## Bball_Doctor

If Dumars really did fire Carlise there would obviously be more to meets the eye. I have often said that Carlise was the main reason why the Pistons turned around and it is he not Ben Wallace, Stackhouse or Rip...the team's MVP. Carlise is a great coach and another team has now certainly gotten better. It would certainly be interesting to hear Dumar's comments if this is true because to my knowledge Piston officials are still refuting the claim. However, remember that Dumars said he would clean house about 25% of the roster and staff for next season. Is this wise? Maybe not. Maybe Dumars is just getting power hungry but I leave all criticisms aside until the end of next season becuz this man has managed to push the right buttons so far.


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## Tom

The Pistons will suffer for there sins..believe that. Greatest injustice in years.


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## rynobot

There is an offical news conference at 10:30 eastern time, it will probably be on ESPNEWS.


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## Brian.

It was changed to 12:00


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## LionsFan01

Put aside the great regular seasons for a second and look at what Carlisle has done with teams that had a good chance of coming out of the East in the playoffs. I think that has alot to do with it. GM's don't like coaches who can't win in the playoffs, especially when they have the #1 seed. I'm not saying that's the only reason Carlisle is out, but I'm sure that had alot to do with it. It seems like he just didn't know how to correctly manage the team in the playoffs like he did during the regular season. Now all we Pistons can do is hope that they can sign Larry Brown or else I think we're screwed.


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## Brian.

WDFN in detroit is reporting that larry brown is their next coach.


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## Mongolmike

*...*



> Originally posted by <b>rwj333</b>!
> Carlisle is a great defensive coach...
> maybe Dumars didnt like his offensive plan. Carlisle also did some questionable maneuvers in the Nets series i.e. starting rotation. But, there was no reason to trade him, unless he was against drafting Darko or something.
> 
> If anyone has read ESPN insider of the past few days, you would notice that Darko was being looked at by Dumars, the scouts, the whole team... except Carlisle. Maybe this was already happened, and was just kept quiet. I still dont know why, though.


I think you hit it right on the button here. As an outsider, this sure looks like a bad move by Dumars..... but you'll never hear the exact reason why. Coaching... what a job.... you can do a good job and still get fired..... go figure....


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## Mongolmike

*true, but*



> Originally posted by <b>newmessiah10</b>!
> I think the lack of scoring and rebounding help for Ben Wallace and the last two seasons of playoff exits has left a bad taste in Dumars mouth. .


But isn't that Dumars responsibility to orchestrate trades that bring in players to help with the scoring and rebounding? It is. Is he just trying to pass the buck?


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## JRose5

*Probably not but..*

Maybe he figures that since Carlisle got the defense instituted, its time to replace him with someone that preaches offense, and just hope the defense sticks with them.


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## The_Franchise

The Pistons will be expected to continue being the East powerhouse for the next couple of years, mainly because of the addition of Darko. Carlisle may not be the bets man to harness all this talent. 

Billups
Rip
Tayshaun
Milicic
Wallace

INTIMIDATING, not only does Detroits defense get stronger but they get a low post scoring option which is vital in the east. What Carlisle could do on the offensive end with this, taht is questionable. Dumars is not a stupid person. There is always a huge factor when the Eastern conference finalist coach gets fired. Maurice Cheeks, Larry Brown, Paul Silas, all viable candidates for the Pistons. 

But Houston is still the hottest market for a coach!


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## Jmmy_James

Sounds like Mariucchi part II in Detroit. Although there is a big differance between what Carlilse has done, and what Marty did with the Lions. 

It's funny though, that yesterday there was an interview with Joe in the Detroit News yesterday where he said Ricky C was his man.

Here's the quote and article




> Q: There has been a lot of conjecture. Do you fully support your coach?
> A: You say a lot of conjecture, but none of it has come from me. That has no bearing on what's going to happen with Rick Carlisle. As far as hanging a guy out to dry, we're not even into the third season yet. I support my coach.



The Story

Update:
They were speaking about this on the radio: The Q&A is from last Sunday.


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## King Alley

Yea being a pistons fan this is real  But I think he was fired because of his lack of vocal leader ship and not giving young guys a lot of minutes until the playoffs.


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## Jmmy_James

Also, for everyone saying that Rick's D. is the reason the Pistons won, but it was actually Kevin O'neil who was responsible for the D.


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## Jmmy_James

For anyone that wants to listen to the press conf. check out WDFN.com

WDFN's Home Page


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## W1Z0C0Z

This is a crazy suprising move, but they are now saying on ESPN that Larry Brown and the Pistons have pretty much or actually agreed to a contract. Therefore, this was a good movie. 

Carlisie is a very good coach and did very well in Det, but Larry Brown is a top 2 coach w/ Phil Jackson. Sad for Rick, but good move for the organization.


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## Jmmy_James

WDFN is reporting that Brown is the new coach as well.

EDIT:

Terry Foster of WDFN / Detroit News has reported that Brown will be hired on Monday


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## junh

There are few NBA players (past and present) that I respect more than Joe Dumars. He played the game with so much skill, humility and class (like David 'The Admiral' Robinson) that he was one of the reasons why I always respected and admired the Pistons in the 90's.










But like everyone here, I have to admit that I'm shocked as to why Carlisle was fired for he was instrumental in making the Pistons what it is today: A NBA Powerhouse in the EAST minus any real superstar (of course JD had a big had in getting the players but I believe Carlisle played a huge part in having those players play as a cohesive unit). I'm sure JD must have had a good reason for doing this but it better be a good one cause I'm scratching my head to figure out what that reason could be.


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## Chicago_Cow

> Originally posted by <b>Jmmy_James</b>!
> Also, for everyone saying that Rick's D. is the reason the Pistons won, but it was actually Kevin O'neil who was responsible for the D.


If O'neil were so good, why didn't the Pistons make the playoff before Calisle gets there?


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## BuhBuhBuhBen

O'neill arrived in Detroit the same year Carlisle did. He has only been in Detroit for the 2001-2002 and 2002-2003 seasons. So, to answer your question, the Pistons didn't make the playoffs because O'neill wasn't there.


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## TwinkieTowers

While it appears that Isiah Thomas is trying to make his Pacers resemble the "Bad Boy" Pistons from over ten years ago, Joe Dumars is trying his hand with former Pacers coaches; first Carlisle, now Brown.


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## gold101

I think maybe Dumars thought the only reason for their defensive success was O'Neill. And now since O'Neill might possibly be going elsewhere everything Carlisle had was gone. Maybe Carlisle didn't have as much impact on the defensive as people think. O'Neill is the one who implemented the system and Carlisle didn't have as much to do with it as people think.


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## TwinkieTowers

> Originally posted by <b>gold101</b>!
> I think maybe Dumars thought the only reason for their defensive success was O'Neill. And now since O'Neill might possibly be going elsewhere everything Carlisle had was gone. Maybe Carlisle didn't have as much impact on the defensive as people think. O'Neill is the one who implemented the system and Carlisle didn't have as much to do with it as people think.


Okay, so Carlisle may not have been as involved with the defense, but does that necessarily make him not a good coach? Tex Winter is the guy who's been implementing the triangle offense to the Bulls and Lakers championship teams, but does that make Phil Jackson a bad coach?


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## Jmmy_James

The media around here is syaing that Rick would still be here if Brown hadn't become available.


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## HKF

There is also a real big rumor that Detroit maybe able to trade the No.2 pick, Chucky Atkins, Corliss Williamson, Rebraca for Elton Brand & Keyon Dooling. It might happen, then again it might not, but if it does the Pistons get better and they get Larry Brown.


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## MightyReds2020

Firing Carlisle will not be a bad move if they get can Larry Brown, like ESPN reported. If Darko is everything the scouts said he is, he will eventually become the focal point of this Pistons team. Joe D realized that you can't win with a group of very good players, you need at least a great player to bring the team deeper. Props to Carlisle bringing this team overachieved last couple of seasons but he's still an pretty much unproven coach in playoffs and the drafting of Darko might means a change of coaching philosophy is needed (from emphasizing team-works to everything-evolve-with-a-superstar). Joe D might fear this change of philosophy is a task Carlisle can't overcome, thus leading to the his firing and hiring of Larry Brown.

Just my 2cents!


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## kawika

As to the coaching change, it's curious, but not indefensible or anything. Larry Brown is a terrific coach, but what his real strength is that he is a great defensive teacher, not the Pistons area of greatest need. And Carlisile was obviously doing a fine job. As to:



> Originally posted by <b>newmessiah10</b>!
> There is also a real big rumor that Detroit maybe able to trade the No.2 pick, Chucky Atkins, Corliss Williamson, Rebraca for Elton Brand & Keyon Dooling. It might happen, then again it might not, but if it does the Pistons get better and they get Larry Brown.


I refuse to believe Detroit is that stupid or LA that smart. LA gets a possible future superstar, one very servicable player (Z.R.), one OK player (C.W.) and a throw-in. Detroit would get a very, very good-but-not-great player who had been traded THREE times in a four year career and Dooling, who in three years went from being the Clipper's PG of the future to how-can-we-unload this guy. LAC has a history of being fleeced, Detroit's recent past suggests they'll do the fleecing.


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## ATLien

Where do you think Carlisle will go? Maybe back to Indiana?


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## digital jello

> Originally posted by <b>GeorgiaSports</b>!
> Where do you think Carlisle will go? Maybe back to Indiana?


Philly!


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## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>JustinSane</b>!
> Speaking as a Pistons fan, I'd hold off on the criticism until Dumars says why he fired him. So far, Dumars has had the midas touch, and people were calling him an idiot when he traded Stack last year, too. I've got a few theories that might justify the move. Carlisle is a great coach though, he'll be fine. Somewhere an NBA team just got a lot better, especially on defense. Maybe they are confident they can get Larry Brown, maybe Carlisle couldn't be mananged (too stubburn), maybe he was the wrong guy to develop Darko. I'm sure there is a reason here, and until proven wrong, I'm giving Dumars the benefit of the doubt. I'll tell you what, this move sure took guts, so he has to be pretty confident of being right on this. He's hanging himself out to dry if the Pistons regress and Carlilse goes to the Bulls and starts winning rings in a couple years.. We'll see. Shaping up to be an interesting offseason in Detroit.



Like you, I'll give Joe D. the benefit of my doubts about this matter. I am shocked that anyone would think Larry Brown would be better than Carlisle. First, the Pacers don't keep Carlisle and now the Pistons don't keep him. 

I have this "opinion" that Carlisle is going to make some past teams regret not keeping the YOUNG and obviously talented coach.

How OLD is Brown?

PS) Brown is noted for coaching teams that love "the team" philosophy, so that wasn't the reason Carlisle was fired. They have the same philosophy!


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## digital jello

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> How OLD is Brown?


I want to say 67 or 68, and he suopposedly was battling health problems earlier this season.


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## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>digital jello</b>!
> 
> 
> I want to say 67 or 68, and he suopposedly was battling health problems earlier this season.


That is what I was thinking, too, around that age and he has heart problems. Carlisle is what - 40?


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## JaK

> Originally posted by <b>MightyReds2020</b>!
> Props to Carlisle bringing this team overachieved last couple of seasons but he's still an pretty much unproven coach in playoffs and the drafting of Darko might means a change of coaching philosophy is needed (from emphasizing team-works to everything-evolve-with-a-superstar).
> Just my 2cents!


Unproven?... He's got my "props" for doing an excellent job in the playoffs...C'mon... In his SECOND season of being a head coach he gets to the conference finals!.... He takes his team and battles back from a 3-1 series deficit against Orlando...

You want talk about coaches who are unproven in the playoffs, you don't have to look any further than Flip Saunders... Dude hasn't even gotten past the 1st round, yet he is regarded so highly....


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## DetBNyce

Dumars wanted Carlisle back for all of those people calling him an idiot. It was the players and others inside the organization.


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## JaK

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> Dumars wanted Carlisle back for all of those people calling him an idiot. It was the players and others inside the organization.


This I can see... RC doesn't appear to be a big "rah-rah" kind of guy and the Pistons are fairly young team who may need that...


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## digital jello

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> That is what I was thinking, too, around that age and he has heart problems. Carlisle is what - 40?


Sportsline.com says that Brown is 62 and Carlisle is 43.


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## gold101

> Originally posted by <b>JaK</b>!
> 
> 
> Unproven?... He's got my "props" for doing an excellent job in the playoffs...C'mon... In his SECOND season of being a head coach he gets to the conference finals!.... He takes his team and battles back from a 3-1 series deficit against Orlando...
> 
> You want talk about coaches who are unproven in the playoffs, you don't have to look any further than Flip Saunders... Dude hasn't even gotten past the 1st round, yet he is regarded so highly....


His stubborness nearly made them lose in the first round. He didn't do an excellent job at all. The only reason Detroit came back from 3-1 down was because T-Mac fell apart, Detroit got lucky there. Carlisle got lucky that Tayshaun Prince emerged as a go-to-guy at the end of Orlando series and Philly series. If Michael Curry would have never gotten into foul trouble in one the games in the Orlando series Prince would still have been sitting on the bench. Carlisle is not a very good judge of talent, especially young talent. He continued to start Curry until the end of the NJ series despite Curry bring absolutely nothing to the team. And he continued to play Cliff Robinson despite it being obvious that Okur was the better option.


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## HT_Flyer

> Originally posted by <b>gold101</b>!
> 
> 
> The only reason Detroit came back from 3-1 down was because T-Mac fell apart, Detroit got lucky there. Carlisle got lucky that Tayshaun Prince emerged as a go-to-guy at the end of Orlando series and Philly series.



maybe RC is nothing, he just got lucky to win back to back 50 games with detroit, right?


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## gold101

> Originally posted by <b>HT_Flyer</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> maybe RC is nothing, he just got lucky to win back to back 50 games with detroit, right?


He's lucky he had Kevin O'Neill to teach the team how to play defense.


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## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>gold101</b>!
> 
> 
> His stubborness nearly made them lose in the first round. He didn't do an excellent job at all. The only reason Detroit came back from 3-1 down was because T-Mac fell apart, Detroit got lucky there. Carlisle got lucky that Tayshaun Prince emerged as a go-to-guy at the end of Orlando series and Philly series. If Michael Curry would have never gotten into foul trouble in one the games in the Orlando series Prince would still have been sitting on the bench. <b>Carlisle is not a very good judge of talent, especially young talent. </b>He continued to start Curry until the end of the NJ series despite Curry bring absolutely nothing to the team. And he continued to play Cliff Robinson despite it being obvious that Okur was the better option.


I have some bad news for you - there. Larry Brown is ROTTEN when it comes to young talent. If you think he is going to make a difference with the #2 pick - think again, as that pick will get picked at.


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## MemphisX

> Originally posted by <b>gold101</b>!
> 
> 
> His stubborness nearly made them lose in the first round. He didn't do an excellent job at all. The only reason Detroit came back from 3-1 down was because T-Mac fell apart, Detroit got lucky there. Carlisle got lucky that Tayshaun Prince emerged as a go-to-guy at the end of Orlando series and Philly series. If Michael Curry would have never gotten into foul trouble in one the games in the Orlando series Prince would still have been sitting on the bench. Carlisle is not a very good judge of talent, especially young talent. He continued to start Curry until the end of the NJ series despite Curry bring absolutely nothing to the team. And he continued to play Cliff Robinson despite it being obvious that Okur was the better option.


Detroit fans are a little full of themselves. 
Here is what was thought of your talent prior to Carlisle 

Here is what Dr. Jack thought of your team 

...yeah but it is Detroit's great talent that has gotten them so far


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## rocketeer

even if detroit gets larry brown(like many of you are saying), it is still a bad move by the pistons. brown is in his 60s and carlisle is in his 40s. they are both top coaches. sure brown will come in and do a good job for a couple of seasons. for carlisle could stay with the pistons doing a good job for a couple of decades.

and i carlisle wasn't a good coach and the real reason for his success was kevin oneill, i bet carlisle wouldn't have been the coach. there is a reason that carlisle was the head coach and that oneill was an assistant.



> He continued to start Curry until the end of the NJ series despite Curry bring absolutely nothing to the team. And he continued to play Cliff Robinson despite it being obvious that Okur was the better option.


yeah and what happened when prince started over curry(and i thought prince started the whole series)? prince played bad and wasn't a factor at all in the series. it's not carlisle's fault that billups was playing on a hurt ankle.


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## HORNETSFAN

I would LOVE for the Hornets to hire Carlisle!


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## bananas

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> 
> Detroit fans are a little full of themselves.
> Here is what was thought of your talent prior to Carlisle
> 
> Here is what Dr. Jack thought of your team
> 
> ...yeah but it is Detroit's great talent that has gotten them so far


yeah and that shows how much you and dr. jack know.

it would have been good to see rick stay in detroit for a long time, but his rotation method and basic offensive plays were horrid. well all know now that his coaching of hard nose defense and play hard every game will produce success in the regular season but not in the playoffs. no matter, i trust dumars and those of you that say he is a moron havent been following his progress in the front office the past two years. he knows better than any of us whether carlisle is cut out for his team or larry brown is and ill accept whatever choice he makes. this is definitely an interesting turn of events in detroit along with the upcoming draft, very nervous and exciting.


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## rocketeer

> Originally posted by <b>bananas</b>!
> well all know now that his coaching of hard nose defense and play hard every game will produce success in the regular season but not in the playoffs.


what do you mean not have success in the playoffs? they did get to the conference finals.


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## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>HORNETSFAN</b>!
> I would LOVE for the Hornets to hire Carlisle!


Let's hope the Hornets owners are smart enough to hire him.


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## TheRifleman

> Originally posted by <b>bananas</b>!
> 
> 
> yeah and that shows how much you and dr. jack know.
> 
> it would have been good to see rick stay in detroit for a long time, but his rotation method and basic offensive plays were horrid. <b>well all know now that his coaching of hard nose defense and play hard every game will produce success in the regular season<u>but not in the playoffs. </b> </u>no matter, i trust dumars and those of you that say he is a moron havent been following his progress in the front office the past two years. he knows better than any of us whether carlisle is cut out for his team or larry brown is and ill accept whatever choice he makes. this is definitely an interesting turn of events in detroit along with the upcoming draft, very nervous and exciting.


You think Brown has better success when he coached for 31 years BEFORE he finally makes the finals???


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## bananas

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> what do you mean not have success in the playoffs? they did get to the conference finals.


i guess as a home team fan, i expected more out of them this year. especially the way they went out. like i said it would have been nice to see rick stay, but ill take dumars word over any of yours of whether rick carlisle can lead this team to championship(s).


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## gold101

Maybe this will give you a better understanding why Carlisle is no longer coaching the Pistons. 


BY DREW SHARP
FREE PRESS COLUMNIST

The only thing more surreal than Saturday's impromptu press conference announcing the apparently amicable divorce between Rick Carlisle and the Pistons was the 48 hours leading up to it.

``Surreal isn't the word for it,'' said Pistons team president Joe Dumars. ``It goes beyond unbelievable when trying to describe everything that' s happened to get us to this point.''

Larry Brown, the recent Philadelphia 76ers ex, is coming to Detroit. Carlisle may very well wind up in Cleveland. And a city coming off the euphoria of its first Eastern Conference finals appearance in 12 years tries to understand how a coach who won 100 games faster than any of his predecessors in this franchise's history could fall into disfavor with management so decisively.

``This was the best course for everyone involved,'' said Dumars. ``I can't really go into any specifics as to why this happened. It was just agreed that it was in everyone's best interests that we all move on and move forward.''

There were a myriad of irreconcilable differences that led up to this mutual separation, but the bottom line is that Carlisle alienated far too many people within the Pistons' organization with his frequent churlish behavior and obstinate coaching approach.

He ticked off the wrong people.

He treated certain factions of the organization with utter disrespect. He rejected overtures from practically everyone in the organization aimed at improving his communication skills, particularly in regard to younger players.

Dumars will understandably take the hit from the same critics who for the last month blasted the possibility that Carlisle's status could be in jeopardy as ridiculous and irresponsible. That's his job as the front man for this organization, but parting company with Carlisle was a decision endorsed by everyone within the Pistons' basketball brain trust from top to bottom.

Dumars had decided not to extend Carlisle's original three-year contract, creating a situation where Carlisle could be interpreted as a lame duck next season. He wasn't sure if Carlisle could ditch the stubbornness and surliness that got him into this predicament, but he initially thought that Carlisle had earned the chance to prove that he learned the error of his ways.

But Thursday, it was determined that Carlisle wouldn't get that chance. Too many bridges had been burned, too many sensibilities had been offended, too many concerns remained. The Pistons contacted Brown, who was just days removed from the Philadelphia job, through back channels, gauging his interest in the job, if any.

Dumars wouldn't have made a final decision on Carlisle unless he was certain that Brown was his guaranteed successor. According to league sources, Brown agreed to take the Pistons' job Friday afternoon at a salary that could surpass $5 million annually for five years.

Carlisle was notified of the team's decision Friday evening at his home in South Carolina. He later leaked word of his firing to ESPN.com's NBA reporter, Ric Bucher, who reported it early Saturday morning, sending the Pistons into a frenzy of premature denials.

The original plan called for only Dumars to address the media, but Carlisle asked to go out with Dumars, creating a bizarre scene in which the man who did the firing looked more uncomfortable than the man fired.

This was a Carlisle that was rarely seen -- engaging, humorous and self-effacing. Had he better communicated that side of himself to his employers and players, he might not have found himself in this position. Perhaps he was too insecure as a first-time head coach to let people see that side of him, but it was refreshing, although unfortunately for him, it came too late to save him.

But it may help him land his next job.

Carlisle was auditioning for his next employer.

He knew the press conference would be covered live nationally on ESPN and the sight of he and Dumars sitting side-by-side and showering each other with praise might ease fears of other general managers.

It will help Carlisle only if he has indeed learned his lesson.

It doesn't matter how many regular season games are won or division championship banners are raised, if you are branded as acting disrespectful to people in the organization and unwilling to change, you are going to create problems.

And, in this case, it created problems that Carlisle couldn't overcome.


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## bananas

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> You think Brown has better success when he coached for 31 years BEFORE he finally makes the finals???


i dont know brown's complete coaching history, but has he ever had a great team to coach other than the recent sixers. any of his old teams as good as the pistons potentially can be next year? again, i dont recall larry brown led teams success or failures.


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## Crossword

Larry Brown came to the Clippers for two years and coached there. They were non-playoff teams before, and non-playoff teams after. They had two post-season berths with Brown. Yeah, they got eliminated first round both times, but when's the last time the Clipps made the playoffs? I think they only made it once after Brown.


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## JaK

Carlisle is a damn good coach and people who mentioned that Kevin O'Neil should shoulder all the credit for the defense is ridiculous... Carlisle did most of the work in Indy, and I don't remember where I read it, (perhaps in his book?) but when RC was an assistant to Bird, even Bird said that RC did almost everything for him... RC took care of the offense, and Harter the defence.. I can't find that specific quote, but here's one that RC has been quoted for:

----------------

.......... Carlisle says that Bird is willing to let his more-seasoned assistants devise the basic offensive and defensive schemes. "He sits back and says, 'I'll watch you guys, interject ideas, and learn along the way.' Any notion that he's not involved is crazy. He works at it, watching film for hours." ......................... 

http://csmweb2.emcweb.com/durable/1998/01/29/feat/sports.1.html
----------------

And although he didn't have first say on the defensive success of the Pacers, he has since trascended this into his coaching philosophy.. He's much more defensive minded now, than most certainly during his time in Indy...

How can Carlisle not be a very good judgment of young talent?... Just because he gives Prince and Okur a chance to play in the playoffs, and they play well, automatically makes him a poor judge in young talent?... What did these two guys do all year?... Yeh, they played huge in the Orlando series, in particular Prince, but that's all in hindsight... These guys played well during the first two rounds but where were they against NJ? Shoot what did they do all year?... Exactly, they played like rookies... And starting Curry?... Yeh, that can be questioned but it's the coaches decisions and wait... they still managed to win 50+ games in his two seasons there...

Bird certainly has a different view on RC:

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Indiana Pacers general manager Donnie Walsh appreciated the fact that Jermaine O'Neal was named the league's Most Improved Player one week after former Indiana coach Larry Bird said that the Pacers should have hired Rick Carlisle, his former assistant, instead of Isiah Thomas because of Carlisle's ability to develop young players.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/buck/apr02/38801.asp
----------------

In general, these are all opinions on what Carlisle can do... The firing is a complete joke... Nice respect for a guy who turns the franchise around in one year and after two years takes the franchise to the conference finals....


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## gold101

I'm not denying that he's a good coach. But the players on the Detroit team didn't want him as their coach any longer. One reporter in Detroit talked with a player who's name wasn't announced that said that they were relieved that Rick was gone. There's much more to the story then just firing a coach who has won 100 games in 2 seasons.


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## Big John

> Originally posted by <b>gold101</b>!
> I'm not denying that he's a good coach. But the players on the Detroit team didn't want him as their coach any longer. One reporter in Detroit talked with a player who's name wasn't announced that said that they were relieved that Rick was gone. There's much more to the story then just firing a coach who has won 100 games in 2 seasons.


I agree with this. Something went on behind the scenes that has not been reported. Carlisle's substitution patterns against NJ in the playoffs were strange. He basically benched Jon Barry. He looked very unhappy and so did the players. He had no animation or enthusiasm.

I think that 3-4 key players went to Dumars and told him that they did not want to play for Carlisle. Why? I don't know.


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## bananas

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> I think that 3-4 key players went to Dumars and told him that they did not want to play for Carlisle. Why? I don't know.


no, it has been stated that no player directly went to dumars and asked for carlisle to be fired. however the same piston player that said no one demanded a firing also said the team is happy that rick is gone.

you guys that didnt follow detroit wouldnt understand how frustrating it was to see five plays total run thoughout the course of a game in a half court offense! with the addition of larry browns love of the game and supposedly has plays up the arse, that will make rip and co. alot more happy.

however the one concern i have with brown is the same with carlisle - their failed ability to develop young talent. lets hope joe d can show brown that that was partly the reason rick was fired and he can adapt his coaching for darko, prince and okur.


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## JaK

> Originally posted by <b>bananas</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> however the one concern i have with brown is the same with carlisle - their failed ability to develop young talent. lets hope joe d can show brown that that was partly the reason rick was fired and he can adapt his coaching for darko, prince and okur.



How can Carlisle be considered as a guy who fails to develop young talent?... When he was the Pacers he help JO become most improved player in the league... And JO is now consider one of the best players in his position...

The Pistons have lil' than above avg. type players, that simply overachieved... I don't know what the hell more he could have done with this team...


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## bananas

> Originally posted by <b>JaK</b>!
> 
> 
> How can Carlisle be considered as a guy who fails to develop young talent?... When he was the Pacers he help JO become most improved player in the league... And JO is now consider one of the best players in his position...
> 
> The Pistons have lil' than above avg. type players, that simply overachieved... I don't know what the hell more he could have done with this team...


i wasnt aware carlisle was given credit for developing j. o'neal.

you may have not followed the pistons the past two years but it was obvious that carlisle wanted to win now which in turn did not progress white last year and prince/okur earlier in the year - and the front office didnt want to see the same thing happen to darkos star potential.

and define a little above average. billups, rip and ben are all top ten players of their position. i'm sorry you are all giving rick too much credit with the players success. rip has emerged as an all star caliber player along with billups, this was not due to ricks coaching at all. he ran a limited number of predictable plays every game, it was embarassing to see wallace at the top of the key getting the ball and making an entry pass 10-15 times a game. it was obvious that the team next year was going to start focusing on offense from player quotes (add in that o'neil is likely gone, the one who was the actualy defensive minded coach) and rick wasnt going to be flexible with his methods.

on another note, i am not sure carlisle wanted an extension and next year, a potential championship run would have been overshadowed by carlisles status on the team.


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## MemphisX

> Originally posted by <b>gold101</b>!
> I'm not denying that he's a good coach. But the players on the Detroit team didn't want him as their coach any longer. One reporter in Detroit talked with a player who's name wasn't announced that said that they were relieved that Rick was gone. There's much more to the story then just firing a coach who has won 100 games in 2 seasons.


Look up and down your roster. Which one of those players has ever done squat in the league. Larry Brown is fool's gold. Detroit has peaked. If you think Larry Brown develops young talent, ask Philly fans.


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## MemphisX

> Originally posted by <b>bananas</b>!
> 
> billups, rip and ben are all top ten players of their position.


No they are not. Big Ben is but he can't shoot straight.


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## rocketeer

> Originally posted by bananas!
> 
> however the one concern i have with brown is the same with carlisle - their failed ability to develop young talent. lets hope joe d can show brown that that was partly the reason rick was fired and he can adapt his coaching for darko, prince and okur.


i don't understand this at all. how could carlisle have failed at developing young talent? he was with the pistons for two years. how is that enough time to judge his ability of developing young talent. and if anything he did a good job. ben wallace played great. billups was very good. rip came in and played very good. okur and prince were able to be key parts off the bench. carlisle got everything he possibly could out of his players. there really isn't anything else you could want. i thought detroit would beat new jersey. but the nets played better and won. one series doesn't change that carlisle has been a great coach for two years.


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## bananas

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> 
> 
> No they are not. Big Ben is but he can't shoot straight.


who are tep pgs/sgs better than billups and rip?

kidd, nash, bibby, parker, marbury, payton, davis, francis if you consider him a point. could make an argument for arenas.

two's? pierce, finley, tmac, kobe, iverson, allen. could make strong cases for wally and wells.


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## rocketeer

> Originally posted by <b>bananas</b>!
> 
> 
> who are tep pgs/sgs better than billups and rip?
> 
> kidd, nash, bibby, parker, marbury, payton, davis, francis if you consider him a point. could make an argument for arenas.
> 
> two's? pierce, finley, tmac, kobe, iverson, allen. could make strong cases for wally and wells.


pg - kidd, payton, marbury, francis, bibby, davis, miller, parker, nash, snow, arenas, terry(if he's a pg. if not he'll be on the sg list), stockton, van exel, b jackson.

i agree with you. i think that billups is a top 10 pg. but it is easily arguably that he isn't. there could probably be a good arguement that any of these guys could be better than billups.

sg - kobe, tmac, iverson, pierce, allen, finley, houston, carter, stackhouse, eddie jones, wally, wells, maybe mobley.

again, i agree with you that he is among the top 10. but there is a lot of competition and someone could easily think he wasn't.

and if carlisle can't develop talent, how did these guys get to be top 10 players? they sure weren't top 10 when they came to detroit.


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## bananas

> Originally posted by <b>rocketeer</b>!
> 
> and if carlisle can't develop talent, how did these guys get to be top 10 players? they sure weren't top 10 when they came to detroit.


i'm sorry, but billups showed he was ready to explode durring last years playoffs with the wolves. rip was never the #1 option in washington. i am not going to completely discount rick in the pistons players progress, but it has been stated (even more magnified the past few days) that carlisle hardly said a word to his players. he did not communicate with them. one could say that his offensive system (of 5 plays ran over and over throughout the game) helped hamilton with screens and working off the ball - but his offense did not progress between his first year in detroit and his last in washington. what he did gain this year was greater definsive intensity imo, and you can credit that to o'neil.

its a done deal it seems with larry brown. a press confrence at 2pm on monday at the palace. it will be exciting to see what plays a great basketball mind like brown can do for chauncey, rip, prince, okur, milic.

"We saw Brown as the perfect guy to come in and establish a base for us," Dumars said. "If he can give us a strong base for three to four years and teach a young talented team how to win, how to be professionals, how to play hard - that's what we need."

i think brown will last three maybe four years. possibly win a championship between year two and three, then retire. there should be a coach in training, maybe curry after year one. either way i am excited, the pistons can win now with brown and also when he leaves have a coach ready to come in to a great situation.

"I sleep at night when I have to make tough decisions," Dumars said. "I'm not in the business of making popular decisions; I have to make right and wrong decisions. I felt at this time, this was the right decision for us to make." 

joes not gm of the year for nothing, i trust him.


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## kawika

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> This was a dumber move than the firing of Paul Silas. I thought Joe Dumars was smart, it looks like he's just a complete idiot.
> 
> Teams without a coach, or searching for a new coach:
> Toronto Raptors
> Washington Wizards
> New Orleans Hornets
> Los Angeles Clippers
> Houston Rockets
> Cleveland Cavaliers
> Detroit Pistons
> Philadelphia 76ers
> 
> Top coaching candidates:
> Paul Silas
> Jeff Van Gundy
> Rick Carlisle
> Larry Brown
> Lenny Wilkins
> 
> Wow! Those are some INCREDIBLE coaches that don't have jobs. INCREDIBLE! It would be wise if the Cavaliers signed Carlisle. He took the Pistons from the bottom to the top, he might be able to do the same thing with Cleveland. But he won't be able to do it in a year.
> 
> Joe Dumars is a freaking moron. He fires Carlisle after 2 50 win seasons?! Idiot!


Uh, yeah. What he said.  

Props to bananas, for sure, though.


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