# Celtics sign James Posey



## Auggie (Mar 7, 2004)

2 years, 7 Mil

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/celtics/


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Good signing.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

That definitely helps their bench.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Damn are the Heat just having the worst offseason this year or what?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Me thinks the Heat might NOT make the playofffs


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Yeah I dont see the Heat making it. But the Celtics have signed 2 quality bench players.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

Good signing, good price. They are paying pennies for their 5th best player. Not bad.


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

What a kick in the balls to Cle/NJ/Mia. He's an awesome pick-up for Boston. They sure are looking dangerous.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

OneBadLT123 said:


> Damn are the Heat just having the worst offseason this year or what?


IDK what he did, but IMO it's clear that Posey's done something to seriously piss off Riles. Getting suspended for 8 percent body fat was just a cop out to suspend him for something else. I'm assuming that it was all the clubbing. We could've offered him more than the Celtics but we didn't. So now, we've still got the same core that won the ship except with Smush instead of GP (both suck but its an upgrade), and Dorell instead of Posey (downgrade but we'll see how Dorell pans out. At this point, we've got to go for Patterson (He said 3 days ago that he wanted Miami or Boston) or Pietrus (S&T).


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## JuX (Oct 11, 2005)

Not a bad signing for the Celtics.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

We were talking about on the Celtics forum that they should try and experiment with a Rondo/Allen/Pierce/Posey/Garnett lineup and see how it works out.


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## sMaK (Jun 13, 2002)

^^^^^Maybe for a few minutes each game, but that's it


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

sMaK said:


> ^^^^^Maybe for a few minutes each game, but that's it


IMO, it'd be the perfect 4th quarter lineup.


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## fuzznuts (May 23, 2006)

celts are quietly putting together a bench.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

I like this signing but I think they should have rather signed Ruben Patterson who would have came cheaper, and been more of a lockdown defender for them while having the ability to play the 3/4. Posey is a defensive, three point shooter but they didn't need outside shooting with Ray Ray and Pierce.


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## Jenness (Apr 18, 2007)

Regardless of fit, I'd say Patterson is a better player than Posey. He's more individually talented. However, I'd say Posey will be a better fit for the Celtics because he doesn't need the ball to contribute. He'll be able to take feeds from penetration or double-team kickouts and nail some threes, something that Patterson isn't capable of. The Celtics already have enough guys in Pierce and Allen, especially Pierce and somewhat less in Allen, who can drive to the hoop. They don't really need Patterson clattering away to the hoop, which is about his entire offensive repertoire.


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## Krimzon (Feb 26, 2007)

Good signing. Looks like the Heat are losing their spot in the playoffs.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Oh man, I'm going to enjoy this season


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

Split feelings on this. I know its a great signing, but this guy really makes me mad with his cheap shots.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Man... Boston is shaping up to look better and better. I'm surprised they decided to spend their MLE on depth at the Wing rather than at the 1 or 5.

I guess Pierce and Allan can play the point at times... man that would be crazy. Pierce/Allen/Posey/KG/Whocares?????


Somebody hold me.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Dee-Zy said:


> Man... Boston is shaping up to look better and better. I'm surprised they decided to spend their MLE on depth at the Wing rather than at the 1 or 5.
> 
> I guess Pierce and Allan can play the point at times... man that would be crazy. Pierce/Allen/Posey/KG/Whocares?????
> 
> ...


They will add a veteran backup PG.


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## jerseyfan24 (Jul 13, 2007)

I do not care how much better the Eastern Conference got, you guys are counting out Miami? Miami who has a Top 5 or 10 player? Miami who has Shaq? They play in the weakest division in the East. Who is going to do better then them, Washington also coming off injuries to their best players? Or Orlando who got Shard for $120 million and lost Darko and Grant Hill. They should probably be the favorite to win the southeast division, and you guys do not think they will make the playoffs? Who will take their spot the Knicks?


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

jerseyfan24 said:


> I do not care how much better the Eastern Conference got, you guys are counting out Miami? Miami who has a Top 5 or 10 player? Miami who has Shaq? They play in the weakest division in the East. Who is going to do better then them, Washington also coming off injuries to their best players? Or Orlando who got Shard for $120 million and lost Darko and Grant Hill. They should probably be the favorite to win the southeast division, and you guys do not think they will make the playoffs? Who will take their spot the Knicks?


Top 10, not top 5. Shaq is old. Atlantic was weaker last season. Doesn't that just mean Washington will improve this year? What does Shard's $120 million have to do with Orlando's wins/losses this year?

Washington, Miami, and Orlando each have a chance to win the division. The other two will likely be in the battle for the last couple playoff spots.


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## Sex&Violence (Jun 1, 2007)

I don't like Miami but I think its totally ridiculous that you guys are counting them out in the incredibly weak Eastern conference. Shaq still commands the double team and Dwyane Wade is a ****en beast. Wade won't play in the opener but as the season progresses he'll play up to his superstar standards. Plus Jason Williams is going to be healthy and hopefully Walker will get big minutes and start producing again.


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

Sex&Violence said:


> I don't like Miami


Of course you don't....


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## ChrisRichards (Jul 17, 2007)

Dwyane Wade is a top 5 player in the NBA today. Period. If your list doesn't have Dwyane Wade in the top 5, you are wrong.

The list MUST also include : Kobe Bryant and LeBron James


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Lebron's debatable IMO, and he can go anywhere from 3-7 I've got him at 3b with Wade as 3a right now), but Duncan's a must, as is KG IMHO.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

ChrisRichards said:


> Dwyane Wade is a top 5 player in the NBA today. Period. If your list doesn't have Dwyane Wade in the top 5, you are wrong.
> 
> The list MUST also include : Kobe Bryant and LeBron James


First off Boston is putting together a better bench than i though they would, they could be very dangerous if everyone gels together.

in no order.. Duncan,Bryant,Garnett,James,Nash there are 5 guys that have an excellent arguement over wade as top 5 players, dont get me wrong I love Wade I am from milwaukee and am a huge Marquette fan so ill never forget him taking us to the final 4, he is definitely a top 10 player but he isnt a slam dunk top 5.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Sad to see Poze go, especially to Boston, but we can move on without him b/c Dorell can get his minutes and show what he can do on a full-time basis.


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

ChrisRichards said:


> Dwyane Wade is a top 5 player in the NBA today. Period. If your list doesn't have Dwyane Wade in the top 5, you are wrong.


No. You are wrong. Period.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

I think that's a good signing for the Celtics. He's a veteran. He's a good (and dirty) defender. He hits 3s. He doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective. And he's been a role player on a championship team.

That said, they really need to get themselves a PG who can play D and will neither hold/pound the ball nor make stupid plays.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Everybody's 'top 5' list is going to be different, because everyone values different things in a player.


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## hugeeug (Feb 9, 2006)

ChrisRichards said:


> Dwyane Wade is a top 5 player in the NBA today. Period. If your list doesn't have Dwyane Wade in the top 5, you are wrong.
> 
> The list MUST also include : Kobe Bryant and LeBron James


I like how your list must include lj and kb, but not Tim Duncan. Funny lol. Shows how underrated the bigs are and always have been.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Here's my list:

1) Tim Duncan
2) Kobe Bryant

3a) Dwyane Wade (can go either way here, but IMO Wade's a marginally better now, and LBJ's got the future on lockdown)
3b) Lebron James
5) Kevin Garnett (He may move up depending on his play in Boston)

6) Dirk Nowitzki
7) Steve Nash


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

roux2dope said:


> First off Boston is putting together a better bench than i though they would, they could be very dangerous if everyone gels together.
> 
> in no order.. Duncan,Bryant,Garnett,James,Nash there are 5 guys that have an excellent arguement over wade as top 5 players, dont get me wrong I love Wade I am from milwaukee and am a huge Marquette fan so ill never forget him taking us to the final 4, he is definitely a top 10 player but he isnt a slam dunk top 5.


Well, he's locked into the top 6 IMO. You could make an argmuent for any of those guys. The next best player is Dirk, who, compared to Wade in the Finals, can't be argued as>Wade. Nash I wouldn't really take either. Wade's a much better scorer, while still being pretty efficient. Nash has Wade by about 4 APG, while Wade's D>>>>Nash's D (even though Wade is only an average man defender; it's his off the ball D that's phenomenal). But I woldn't scream about someone putting Nash over Wade. anyone other than the guys you mentioned though...


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

Flash is the Future said:


> Well, he's locked into the top 6 IMO. You could make an argmuent for any of those guys. The next best player is Dirk, who, compared to Wade in the Finals, can't be argued as>Wade. Nash I wouldn't really take either. Wade's a much better scorer, while still being pretty efficient. Nash has Wade by about 4 APG, while Wade's D>>>>Nash's D (even though Wade is only an average man defender; it's his off the ball D that's phenomenal). But I woldn't scream about someone putting Nash over Wade. anyone other than the guys you mentioned though...


IMO, Wade is 7th at best. Just because Wade had one great year in the playoffs(even if you don't consider the help he had from the refs), it doesn't automatically make him better than Dirk. I personally don't like Dirk, but he does everything. At least during the regular season


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Feed_Dwight said:


> IMO, Wade is 7th at best. Just because Wade had one great year in the playoffs(even if you don't consider the help he had from the refs), it doesn't automatically make him better than Dirk. I personally don't like Dirk, but he does everything. At least during the regular season


One great year? He's been a a very good player since his rookie year, he was a MVP candidate as a sophomore, Finals MVP in his 3rd year, and an All-Star last season. How exactly are you ignoring 3 other years that he was very, very good?! I really don't see how Wade isn't top 5, but I guess the "what have you done for me lately" effect is hurting Wade since he was hurt and then wasn't spectacular in his team's elimination from the playoffs.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Feed_Dwight said:


> IMO, Wade is 7th at best. Just because Wade had one great year in the playoffs(even if you don't consider the help he had from the refs), it doesn't automatically make him better than Dirk. I personally don't like Dirk, but he does everything. At least during the regular season


Umm. Before Wade got hurt this year he had a PER of over 30. That's an all time great season right there, and he still led the league in PER even after he screwed up his stats by coming back. He's put up better stats than Dirk, in addition to being more clutch and a better leader than Dirk. Did you just watch Wade in the playoffs this year playing hurt with a left arm that he couldn't even raise past shoulder height?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Flash is the Future said:


> Umm. Before Wade got hurt this year he had a PER of over 30. That's an all time great season right there, and he still led the league in PER even after he screwed up his stats by coming back. He's put up better stats than Dirk, in addition to being more clutch and a better leader than Dirk. Did you just watch Wade in the playoffs this year playing hurt with a left arm that he couldn't even raise past shoulder height?


But his team wasn't WINNING though, Dirk on the other hand had a pretty sensational regular season


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

With a much deeper and healthier line-up, it would be a crime for Dirk's team not to have a better season than Wade's.


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> One great year? He's been a a very good player since his rookie year, he was a MVP candidate as a sophomore, Finals MVP in his 3rd year, and an All-Star last season. How exactly are you ignoring 3 other years that he was very, very good?! I really don't see how Wade isn't top 5, but I guess the "what have you done for me lately" effect is hurting Wade since he was hurt and then wasn't spectacular in his team's elimination from the playoffs.





Feed_Dwight said:


> IMO, Wade is 7th at best. Just because Wade had one great year *in the playoffs*(even if you don't consider the help he had from the refs), it doesn't automatically make him better than Dirk. I personally don't like Dirk, but he does everything. At least during the regular season


Please read what I say and don't put words in my mouth. No one with only one great season would even be considered for top 10 in this league. Also, anyone in the top 10 has most of those accomplishments you mentioned and usually more.


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> With a much deeper and healthier line-up, it would be a crime for Dirk's team not to have a better season than Wade's.


With Shaq, it would be a crime for Wade not to have won a championship.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Feed_Dwight said:


> Please read what I say and don't put words in my mouth. No one with only one great season would even be considered for top 10 in this league. Also, anyone in the top 10 has most of those accomplishments you mentioned and usually more.


Really? If you put a top 10 together, not many have even won a championship, let alone a Finals MVP, or accomplished some of the statistics Wade has in his career.

Duncan/Kobe/Wade (NBA champions/Finals MVP)

LeBron/Nash/Garnett/Dirk (no titles)

feel free to add your other 3 to the list, but I don't see how you can start to say some of these guys have accomplished more than Wade.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

HB said:


> But his team wasn't WINNING though, Dirk on the other hand had a pretty sensational regular season


True. In that case I'll rephrase my statement: After last years Finals, when Wade dominated and Dirk disappeared, you simply cannot put Dirk over Wade. Great players show up. They don't go away. Jason Terry hurt us more in that series than Dirk did.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Feed_Dwight said:


> Please read what I say and don't put words in my mouth. No one with only one great season would even be considered for top 10 in this league. Also, anyone in the top 10 has most of those accomplishments you mentioned and usually more.


Where do you get this one great season thing from? I'm not sure whether you're terribly misinformed due to not watching Wade play enough, a new fan of basketball, or simply spewing BS to prove your point. I'm going to use PER as a focal point, as it over the history of the NBA it has generally favored bigs, yet Wade is a guard. Also, I'm using it because it provides some concrete evidence since you won't listen to other reasons. Fair?

In 2004-2005: Wade was ranked 11th in PER (23.1).
In 2005-2006: Wade was ranked 4th in PER (27.6).
In 2006-2007: Wade was ranked 1st in PEr (28.9).

Whether you agree with PER or not, that's hardly one great season. It's been the past 3 years...


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

....so, Boston's looking pretty good now.
I'm gonna disagree with most people, I think they need a decent big more than a decent guard.

My reasoning?

As of now, outside Perkins and Garnett they have Leon Powe and Glen Davis.. oh, and Brian Scalabrine. (I'm assuming they'll sign Davis simply due to their pathetic depth)
I don't care if Garnett can play 40 minutes per night, that's still another 56 minutes going to some combination of Perkins/Scalabrine/Powe/Davis. 

On the other hand, with Pierce/Allen/Garnett on the floor, a Rondo/House tandem isn't quite as bad. Tony Allen's a bit of a combo-guard too; and Gabe Pruitt's there (though that's probably all that can be said for him)

Perkins
Garnett/Scalabrine/Powe/Davis
Pierce/Posey/Wallace
Allen/Allen
Rondo/House/Pruitt

Yeah, I really think a rotation-calibre big is a bigger need (pardon the pun). Getting PJ would be brilliant, but outside of him there's still a few options. None are great, none are starters, but all would be better than nothing. Melvin Ely or Glen Davis? ...exactly.

As for Miami and the playoffs, it depends on injuries. If both Wade and Shaq miss significant time, they're screwed. I don't think the Mourning/Haslem/Walker/Wright/Parker line-up is gonna do much damage. Oh wait, I forgot Jason Williams...


Penny? :lol:

edit: dammit, I forgot Scott Pollard. That doesn't change much though, I would't to be relying on him as my primary backup at center. He _is_ a big though.


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## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

Didn't they sign Scott Pollard?


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

hugeeug said:


> I like how your list must include lj and kb, but not Tim Duncan. Funny lol. Shows how underrated the bigs are and always have been.


Haven't seen you in awhile. How's the "Krstic eventually > Gasol's prime" theory going?


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Rawse said:


> Haven't seen you in awhile. How's the "Krstic eventually > Gasol's prime" theory going?


:laugh:


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Hows the the Grizzlies are going to get Gasol for more than RJ and **** theory going?


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Hows the the Grizzlies are going to get Gasol for more than RJ and **** theory going?


Lucky for Memphis fans, Memphis isn't trading Gasol, so it's not going at all.


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## jerseyfan24 (Jul 13, 2007)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Hows the the Grizzlies are going to get Gasol for more than RJ and **** theory going?


If they did trade Gasol, it would be for a lot more than RJ and ****. What is your point?


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## sknydave (Apr 27, 2006)

Wow.. Wade get injured last season and people forget about him...

Oh well, he'll just keep being one of the best players in the league with or without your acknowledgment.


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

Flash is the Future said:


> Where do you get this one great season thing from? I'm not sure whether you're terribly misinformed due to not watching Wade play enough, a new fan of basketball, or simply spewing BS to prove your point. I'm going to use PER as a focal point, as it over the history of the NBA it has generally favored bigs, yet Wade is a guard. Also, I'm using it because it provides some concrete evidence since you won't listen to other reasons. Fair?
> 
> In 2004-2005: Wade was ranked 11th in PER (23.1).
> In 2005-2006: Wade was ranked 4th in PER (27.6).
> ...


For the second time, I never said he only had one great season. I'm sorry you've wasted your time arguing a point no one has made.




Shaq_Diesel said:


> Really? If you put a top 10 together, not many have even won a championship, let alone a Finals MVP, or accomplished some of the statistics Wade has in his career.
> 
> Duncan/Kobe/Wade (NBA champions/Finals MVP)
> 
> ...


I said most, not all. You're using your selective reading again.

You act like his Finals MVP automatically trumps everyone else's accomplishments, when in reality it just means he did the best in a single series between two teams. He wouldn't have even been in the Finals if it weren't for Shaq. If Dirk, Nash, Garnett, or Lebron had Shaq for a few years they could very well have Finals MVPs as well.

I'll take a regular season MVP over a Finals MVP any day. Nash,Garnett,Dirk each have at least one of those, as well as many more All NBA and All Star selections than Wade.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Feed_Dwight said:


> I said most, not all. You're using your selective reading again.
> 
> You act like his Finals MVP automatically trumps everyone else's accomplishments, when in reality it just means he did the best in a single series between two teams. He wouldn't have even been in the Finals if it weren't for Shaq. If Dirk, Nash, Garnett, or Lebron had Shaq for a few years they could very well have Finals MVPs as well.
> 
> I'll take a regular season MVP over a Finals MVP any day. Nash,Garnett,Dirk each have at least one of those, as well as many more All NBA and All Star selections than Wade.


Your reasonings are so flawed it's not even funny...

Finals MVP proves you were the best player on the highest stage in basketball, please don't try to discount that. Think about how many times Shaq was more than likely the best player in the league during his prime, he didn't take home many MVPs though did he? The regular season MVP is important, but at the same time, it really doesn't prove who is the best in the league either.

IF _____ had Shaq is a great theory, but it really again proves nothing. Wade is keeping Shaq afloat. Your theory might have been true in Wade's sophomore year, but now it's Wades team, not Shaqs. I'm not saying Shaq doesn't make Wade better, because he does, but the effect isn't nearly what you are trying to make it. Remember, Wade was very good as a ROOKIE without Shaq.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> One great year? He's been a a very good player since his rookie year, he was a MVP candidate as a sophomore, Finals MVP in his 3rd year, and an All-Star last season. How exactly are you ignoring 3 other years that he was very, very good?! I really don't see how Wade isn't top 5, but *I guess the "what have you done for me lately" effect is hurting Wade since he was hurt and then wasn't spectacular in his team's elimination from the playoffs.*


Exactly. I think we saw the same thing (maybe even more dramatically) with Lebron. After he beat the Pistons by himself in Game 5, he was the best thing since sliced bread. But after his horrible series against the Spurs where he couldn't hit a midrange shot to save his life, he's back to being a guy who "can't be considered a top player until he learns to shoot". At least his stock is back on the upturn again with the FIBA games, but still. Can we not evaluate a player based on the sum of his accomplishments anymore? Wade's been a top player for at least 3 years, and also had a very good rookie season.

Now maybe I'm a homer, but I just don't see how you could not have Duncan, Kobe, Lebron, and Wade all in the top 5. In my opinion, they have really separated themselves from the rest of the NBA because of their overall consistent excellence and accomplishments. I think there's another group there with KG, Dirk, Nash, and some others, but I don't think that they are as good as any of the four players I mentioned. 

Wade has to be in the top 5. 

Indidentally, my rankings would look startlingly like *Flash is the Future*'s.


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## jerseyfan24 (Jul 13, 2007)

I think they are all interchangeable except for Duncan. He has to always be in there. And the MVP argument is ridiculous. Once again who wins MVP is practically interchangeable within the top 5 or 10. It could have been Dirk, Nash, Lebron, Duncan, or Kobe if his team won a few more games who won mvp.


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> Your reasonings are so flawed it's not even funny...
> 
> Finals MVP proves you were the best player on the highest stage in basketball, please don't try to discount that. Think about how many times Shaq was more than likely the best player in the league during his prime, he didn't take home many MVPs though did he? The regular season MVP is important, but at the same time, it really doesn't prove who is the best in the league either.


Tony Parker won the Finals MVP this year. Is he a top 5 player? No. Is he even a top 30 player? Anyone lucky enough to be on a championship team has a shot at winning that thing.



Shaq_Diesel said:


> IF _____ had Shaq is a great theory, but it really again proves nothing. Wade is keeping Shaq afloat. Your theory might have been true in Wade's sophomore year, but now it's Wades team, not Shaqs. I'm not saying Shaq doesn't make Wade better, because he does, but the effect isn't nearly what you are trying to make it. Remember, Wade was very good as a ROOKIE without Shaq.


The effect IS what I'm trying to make it. Shaq turns any team into an instant contender. And all of these players were very good as rookies(highschoolers excluded) without Shaq. Wade isn't special in that regard.


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

jerseyfan24 said:


> I think they are all interchangeable except for Duncan. He has to always be in their. And the MVP argument is ridiculous. Once again who wins MVP is practically interchangeable within the top 5 or 10. It could have been Dirk, Nash, Lebron, Duncan, or Kobe if his team won a few more games who won mvp.


Right, but all of those players are mentioned a lot more than Wade when people speak of MVP candidates. Its being in the running for it on a yearly basis that attests to those players greatness.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Feed_Dwight said:


> Tony Parker won the Finals MVP this year. Is he a top 5 player? No. Is he even a top 30 player? Anyone lucky enough to be on a championship team has a shot at winning that thing.


ANYONE on the team had a shot? So Oberto was a possible candidate? Quit downgrading the award. Tony Parker absolutely demolished the Cavs, and he won the award based on his performance. Nobody is saying he's the best player on the Spurs, but he was the best player in that series. If you want to try and switch this around to "Wade was the best player for one series" or whatever, it's not the case. Wade has been #1 in PER for multiple seasons, he's been a 3-time All-Star, led his team to the 2nd round as a rookie (something LeBron couldn't do til last year, and Melo never has done). Wade accomplishments in a short career are very, very good. 



> The effect IS what I'm trying to make it. Shaq turns any team into an instant contender. And all of these players were very good as rookies(highschoolers excluded) without Shaq. Wade isn't special in that regard.


I'm going to turn the tables on you - 

Tim Duncan landed in San Antonio because of a season ending injury to David Robinson. He came into a situation where he started next to a hall of famer, and surrounded by a good team. Tim Duncan benefitted from that situation to the point that he has never had a poor talented team around him. Look at guys like Sean Elliot, Manu, Parker, Avery, etc. etc. and you've got very good players next to Duncan throughout his career. Should we use that against Duncan?? 

Kobe is easily one of the most talented in the league, probably the best scorer right now. But what has he won without Shaq? Should we discount all the accomplishments he made while he was with Shaq too?

KG has had great accomplishments, but what has he ever won? Do his stats mean the same since he's been on a consistantly average team (except for maybe a few seasons)? 

Same with Dirk, does his shortcomings in the playoffs take away from his accomplishments? What about the fact that the Mavericks have constantly been able to surround him with talent since Cuban will pay-out to make Dallas a winner?

And Nash, look at his talent in Phoenix. Does that make his a lesser player? Or the fact that he wasn't nearly as highly thought of until he was put into D'Antoni's system. Should we think less of Nash?

Your reasoning is flawed, and that's what I'm pointing out! :cheers:


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> ANYONE on the team had a shot? So Oberto was a possible candidate? Quit downgrading the award. Tony Parker absolutely demolished the Cavs, and he won the award based on his performance. Nobody is saying he's the best player on the Spurs, but he was the best player in that series. If you want to try and switch this around to "Wade was the best player for one series" or whatever, it's not the case. Wade has been #1 in PER for multiple seasons, he's been a 3-time All-Star, led his team to the 2nd round as a rookie (something LeBron couldn't do til last year, and Melo never has done). Wade accomplishments in a short career are very, very good.


Anyone who plays significant minutes in the Finals has a shot at winning the Final MVP. I never said that everyone was a candidate after the fact. Again, you're turning my words around.

I also never said Wade's accomplishments weren't good. I'm only saying that there are several other players with similar or better accomplishments.




Shaq_Diesel said:


> I'm going to turn the tables on you -
> 
> Tim Duncan landed in San Antonio because of a season ending injury to David Robinson. He came into a situation where he started next to a hall of famer, and surrounded by a good team. Tim Duncan benefitted from that situation to the point that he has never had a poor talented team around him. Look at guys like Sean Elliot, Manu, Parker, Avery, etc. etc. and you've got very good players next to Duncan throughout his career. Should we use that against Duncan??


With the exception of his first championship with Robinson, no. Except for hist first couple years, Duncan has been the undisputed best player on his team. You could take away any other player and replace them with an average NBA starter and they would probably still win the championship. You can't replace Shaq with an average center and still give Wade a ring.



Shaq_Diesel said:


> Kobe is easily one of the most talented in the league, probably the best scorer right now. But what has he won without Shaq? Should we discount all the accomplishments he made while he was with Shaq too?


When did I ever say Kobe was a better player because of his 3 rings? I know he wouldn't have won those without Shaq. Here are some things he has won without Shaq though.

2-time Scoring Champion
9-time All-NBA Selection (5 first team)
7-time All-Defensive Selection (5 first team)
2nd most points in a Game: 81
9-time NBA All-Star



Shaq_Diesel said:


> KG has had great accomplishments, but what has he ever won? Do his stats mean the same since he's been on a consistantly average team (except for maybe a few seasons)?


NBA Most Valuable Player: 2004
10-time NBA All-Star: 1997, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007
8-time All-NBA:
First Team: 2000, 2003, 2004
Second Team: 2001, 2002, 2005
Third Team: 1999, 2007
8-time All-Defensive:
First Team: 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005
Second Team: 2006, 2007
4-time NBA regular-season leader, rebounds per game: 2004 (13.9), 2005 (13.5), 2006 (12.7), 2007 (12.8)




Shaq_Diesel said:


> Same with Dirk, does his shortcomings in the playoffs take away from his accomplishments? What about the fact that the Mavericks have constantly been able to surround him with talent since Cuban will pay-out to make Dallas a winner?
> 
> And Nash, look at his talent in Phoenix. Does that make his a lesser player? Or the fact that he wasn't nearly as highly thought of until he was put into D'Antoni's system. Should we think less of Nash?


Both of these players have more individual accomplishments than Wade, but I'm not going to list them because I'm sure you can use Wiki too.

Nash is special because nobody else could go into that system and make it work like he does. Well, maybe Kidd, but no one else. There are at least half a dozen NBA players who could play Wade's role. Shaq finds one everywhere he goes.



Shaq_Diesel said:


> Your reasoning is flawed, and that's what I'm pointing out! :cheers:


You've still failed to prove how my reasoning is flawed.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Feed_Dwight said:


> Anyone who plays significant minutes in the Finals has a shot at winning the Final MVP. I never said that everyone was a candidate after the fact. Again, you're turning my words around.
> 
> I also never said Wade's accomplishments weren't good. I'm only saying that there are several other players with similar or better accomplishments.
> 
> ...


You are stacking up accomplishments of a guy who's played 4 years vs. guys who've played as many as 12 seasons. What do you expect?

And Kobe did do MANY of those accomplishments with Shaq, not solo.


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> You are stacking up accomplishments of a guy who's played 4 years vs. guys who've played as many as 12 seasons. What do you expect?
> 
> And Kobe did do MANY of those accomplishments with Shaq, not solo.


Shall we compare accomplishments for the last 4 years? 3 years? 1 year? These guys will still have Wade beat in individual awards(All-NBA, MVP, etc).

What does Shaq have to do with those things I listed for Kobe? Shaq helped Kobe get championships. He didn't get Kobe All-NBA defensive first team. Give me a break...


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Feed_Dwight said:


> Shall we compare accomplishments for the last 4 years? 3 years? 1 year? These guys will still have Wade beat in individual awards(All-NBA, MVP, etc).
> 
> What does Shaq have to do with those things I listed for Kobe? Shaq helped Kobe get championships. He didn't get Kobe All-NBA defensive first team. Give me a break...


He didn't help Kobe get All-Defensive teams? You don't think having a shot blocker behind you helps and affects the way a guard plays defensively? Come on man...you can bring up stats and facts all you want, but if you simply don't understand the game of basketball and how it's played, then this argument is going nowhere fast.


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> He didn't help Kobe get All-Defensive teams? You don't think having a shot blocker behind you helps and affects the way a guard plays defensively? Come on man...you can bring up stats and facts all you want, but if you simply don't understand the game of basketball and how it's played, then this argument is going nowhere fast.


Kobe still got All Defensive first team in 2006 and 2007 without Shaq, and Wade hasn't got a single All Defensive selection with Shaq. Come on man...you can bring up theories and strategy all you want, but if you simply don't understand the games of basketball and its facts, then this argument is going nowhere fast.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Feed_Dwight said:


> Kobe still got All Defensive first team in 2006 and 2007 without Shaq, and Wade hasn't got a single All Defensive selection with Shaq. Come on man...you can bring up theories and strategy all you want, but if you simply don't understand the games of basketball and its facts, then this argument is going nowhere fast.


And if you ask the general opinion of Kobe's D these past two years, most would feel it's been given to him only because of his name. It's no where near where it used to be. Kirk Hinrich deserved it more than he has the past couple of years. 

So now I ask you this: If Shaq is so good, then isn't he the best center in the NBA? According to the things you say he does, he'd be the perennial MVP and the best player in the league. I know for sure that I'd want a player on my team more than anyone if he could turn a not so special player into a much better player. But that's not the case...

If you took Tony Parker off of the Spurs, does Duncan get them to the Finals (Not unless they hold every opponent to around 65ppg). If you took any player off a good team, wouldn't they be a worse team? It's flawed logic. Oh, and FWIW Wade got All-D 2nd team in 2005. He's a much better help defender than Kobe, who is a much better man defender than Wade.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Flash is the Future said:


> And if you ask the general opinion of Kobe's D these past two years, most would feel it's been given to him only because of his name. It's no where near where it used to be. Kirk Hinrich deserved it more than he has the past couple of years.
> 
> So now I ask you this: If Shaq is so good, then isn't he the best center in the NBA? According to the things you say he does, he'd be the perennial MVP and the best player in the league. I know for sure that I'd want a player on my team more than anyone if he could turn a not so special player into a much better player. But that's not the case...
> 
> If you took Tony Parker off of the Spurs, does Duncan get them to the Finals (Not unless they hold every opponent to around 65ppg). If you took any player off a good team, wouldn't they be a worse team? It's flawed logic. Oh, and FWIW Wade got All-D 2nd team in 2005. He's a much better help defender than Kobe, who is a much better man defender than Wade.


Thank you for adding for our friend that Wade was an all-nba defender. he's not a good on-ball defender, but he has the tools to eventually become that. where he excels is off-the-ball in help defense, playing passing lanes and protecting the rim (especially for a guard). there is not a non-post player outside of Josh Smith who can block shots better than DWade.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> Thank you for adding for our friend that Wade was an all-nba defender. he's not a good on-ball defender, but he has the tools to eventually become that. where he excels is off-the-ball in help defense, playing passing lanes and protecting the rim (especially for a guard). *there is not a non-post player outside of Josh Smith who can block shots better than DWade.*


And Tyrus Thomas is considered what?


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

Flash is the Future said:


> And if you ask the general opinion of Kobe's D these past two years, most would feel it's been given to him only because of his name. It's no where near where it used to be. Kirk Hinrich deserved it more than he has the past couple of years.
> 
> So now I ask you this: If Shaq is so good, then isn't he the best center in the NBA? According to the things you say he does, he'd be the perennial MVP and the best player in the league. I know for sure that I'd want a player on my team more than anyone if he could turn a not so special player into a much better player. But that's not the case...
> 
> If you took Tony Parker off of the Spurs, does Duncan get them to the Finals (Not unless they hold every opponent to around 65ppg). If you took any player off a good team, wouldn't they be a worse team? It's flawed logic. Oh, and FWIW Wade got All-D 2nd team in 2005. He's a much better help defender than Kobe, who is a much better man defender than Wade.


From the time MJ retired in 1998 till probably 2005, Shaq was THE #1 most desired player by GMs. Anybody who knows anything about anything would pick Shaq first in those years to build a team around. If you try to argue that you're insane. Obviously he is old and often injured these days, which is the main reason why the Heat are slowly getting worse.

Do you honestly think if Parker were injured for a season that the Spurs would only score 65 PPG? What the crap are you smoking? Obviously if you take Tony Parker off, you're going to replace him with some one else. We're not playing 4 on 5 here. And yes, if you put Jameer Nelson or any other crappy starting PG on the Spurs instead of Parker, they would still be contenders. Parker's 20 PPG would come from somewhere else.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

HB said:


> And Tyrus Thomas is considered what?


I'll take your point...but I think of him as more of a 4 than a 3.


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> Thank you for adding for our friend that Wade was an all-nba defender. he's not a good on-ball defender, but he has the tools to eventually become that. where he excels is off-the-ball in help defense, playing passing lanes and protecting the rim (especially for a guard). there is not a non-post player outside of Josh Smith who can block shots better than DWade.


I was looking at first team, but OK. I'll also give you that he's a pretty good shot blocker. But playing the passing lanes = stat padding, risky defense. On the ball defense is much more important for a guard.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Feed_Dwight said:


> I was looking at first team, but OK. I'll also give you that he's a pretty good shot blocker. But playing the passing lanes = stat padding, risky defense. On the ball defense is much more important for a guard.


I somewhat agree with you, but playing passing lanes isn't necessarily bad or risky defense. It's something few people can do effectively b/c you need superb athleticism. I'll definitely admit that Dwyane's lack of on-the-ball defense is something that I'll always hold against him when comparing him to a guy like Kobe or Jordan, who does it great on both ends.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Feed_Dwight said:


> From the time MJ retired in 1998 till probably 2005, Shaq was THE #1 most desired player by GMs. Anybody who knows anything about anything would pick Shaq first in those years to build a team around. If you try to argue that you're insane. Obviously he is old and often injured these days, which is the main reason why the Heat are slowly getting worse.
> 
> Do you honestly think if Parker were injured for a season that the Spurs would only score 65 PPG? What the crap are you smoking? Obviously if you take Tony Parker off, you're going to replace him with some one else. We're not playing 4 on 5 here. And yes, if you put Jameer Nelson or any other crappy starting PG on the Spurs instead of Parker, they would still be contenders. Parker's 20 PPG would come from somewhere else.


Hes right. When you took Shaq off the team the Heat was less than .500. when Wade got injured the Heat did much better than they did without Shaq. You can put any all star swingman next to Shaq and you'll get a ring if you have a decent team and coach. Put VC, Peirce, Allen, T-Mac, Kobe there you'll probably get the same results.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Hes right. When you took Shaq off the team the Heat was less than .500. when Wade got injured the Heat did much better than they did without Shaq. You can put any all star swingman next to Shaq and you'll get a ring if you have a decent team and coach. Put VC, Peirce, Allen, T-Mac, Kobe there you'll probably get the same results.


Yes that was true last season, but remember that at the same time, other starters and key players were hurt during those same times.

In previous seasons, Miami did just fine without Shaq in the lineup while Wade was still healthy.


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## jerseyfan24 (Jul 13, 2007)

jerseyfan24 said:


> I do not care how much better the Eastern Conference got, you guys are counting out Miami? Miami who has a Top 5 or 10 player? Miami who has Shaq? They play in the weakest division in the East. Who is going to do better then them, Washington also coming off injuries to their best players? Or Orlando who got Shard for $120 million and lost Darko and Grant Hill. They should probably be the favorite to win the southeast division, and you guys do not think they will make the playoffs? Who will take their spot the Knicks?


I had no idea this post was going to completely hijack the thread lol. I wasnt even arguing that he was top 5, i just said top 5 or 10.


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

HB said:


> And Tyrus Thomas is considered what?


Andrei Kirilenko!


I just like picking on you Diesel.


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> Yes that was true last season, but remember that at the same time, other starters and key players were hurt during those same times.
> 
> In previous seasons, Miami did just fine without Shaq in the lineup while Wade was still healthy.


I don't think they've ever played better than .500 ball without Shaq. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

When Shaq was out, Wade had Rothstein coaching, JWill out, Dorell losing rotation minutes etc. Whereas when Shaq was playing, everyone was virtually healthy (except Wade).


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

XMATTHEWX said:


> Andrei Kirilenko!
> 
> 
> I just like picking on you Diesel.


Damnit! He's top 5 in perimeter players blocking shots....PROVE ME WRONG! :azdaja:


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

jerseyfan24 said:


> I had no idea this post was going to completely hijack the thread lol. I wasnt even arguing that he was top 5, i just said top 5 or 10.


lol. It wasn't me.... :whistling:


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> Damnit! He's top 5 in perimeter players blocking shots....PROVE ME WRONG! :azdaja:


****... I tried too!


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> Yes that was true last season, but remember that at the same time, other starters and key players were hurt during those same times.
> 
> In previous seasons, Miami did just fine without Shaq in the lineup while Wade was still healthy.


When they had Butler and Odom.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> Damnit! He's top 5 in perimeter players blocking shots....PROVE ME WRONG! :azdaja:


Add Gerald Wallace to the list.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Flash is the Future said:


> When Shaq was out, Wade had Rothstein coaching, JWill out, Dorell losing rotation minutes etc. Whereas when Shaq was playing, everyone was virtually healthy (except Wade).


So your telling me the Finals MVP couldnt keep his team .500 because Jason Williams was out and Dorell Wright lost minutes? They didnt play Dorell Wright last season and Riley was coaching them in the beggining of the season. Riley left cause they were'nt .500. It was the same exact team except they had a better Jason Kapono no Shanon anderson and J-Will out.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> When they had Butler and Odom.


No, when they had Shaq, they didn't have those two. Wade played with Shaq hurt when we won the title for a long stretch.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> So your telling me the Finals MVP couldnt keep his team .500 because Jason Williams was out and Dorell Wright lost minutes? They didnt play Dorell Wright last season and Riley was coaching them in the beggining of the season. Riley left cause they were'nt .500. It was the same exact team except they had a better Jason Kapono no Shanon anderson and J-Will out.


Miami played ONE game last season with the starting 5 intact as the same time.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

OMG!!!!!!!!! The Heat should have stayed .500 when they had Wade healthy and Riley coaching. They were good enough to stay .500 in the East. That didnt happen until Shaq came back. No excuse in the world can justify it.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> Miami played ONE game last season with the starting 5 intact as the same time.


And Wade dislocated his shoulder that game in a freak accident. Last season was ridiculous. Never seen anything like it before. I'm still amazed that despite all that crap, we still won the division.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> So your telling me the Finals MVP couldnt keep his team .500 because Jason Williams was out and Dorell Wright lost minutes? They didnt play Dorell Wright last season and *Riley was coaching them in the beggining of the season. Riley left cause they were'nt .500.* It was the same exact team except they had a better Jason Kapono no Shanon anderson and J-Will out.


:azdaja: Riley had KNEE SURGERY AND HIP REPLACEMENT SURGERY. HE HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO GET IT DONE, OR HE WOULD'VE BEEN DROWSY EVERY NIGHT FROM THE SHEER VOLUME OF PAIN MEDICATION HE NEEDED.

Miami went 16-14 with Wade in the lineup and no Shaq last year. When both Wade and Shaq were out, we went 1-7. You figure it out.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Flash is the Future said:


> And Wade dislocated his shoulder that game in a freak accident. Last season was ridiculous. Never seen anything like it before. I'm still amazed that despite all that crap, we still won the division.



Your divison sucks. Wahsington had been injured all year as well and the only other competitor were the Magic and they are not good.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Jizzy said:


> Your divison sucks. Wahsington had been injured all year as well and the only other competitor were the Magic and they are not good.


we had 3 playoff teams in our division, same as the central, and one more than the Atlantic.

anyone else?


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## jerseyfan24 (Jul 13, 2007)

I hate the heat just as much as the next still bitter nets fan, but people are seriously underrating them. 
BTW SD, both divisions only had 1 team with an actual decent record, raps and heat. The nets and wiz were both 41-41 (both due to injury) and orlando I think had between 37-39 wins (around there).


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

The Wizards would have taken the division if both their players were not down.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> The Wizards would have taken the division if both their players were not down.


We would've went to the Finals in 05-06 if Wade, Eddie Jones, Haslem, and Damon Jones weren't all injured in the Eastern Conference Finals. 

Would've...Could've...Should've...Who Cares???


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

No one is underrating them. How have they improved this offseason other then the growth and development of Dorrel Wright. He's a great, young piece but he's not going to get them to the next level or championship contention again. Wade will miss a first chunk of the season and Shaq will surely be overweight and out of shape and judging by last season, he may be winding down now, we say that alot but it's about that time. Losing Posey and Kapono hurts them tremendously and all they did was add a scrub in Smush Parker. 

IMO, the Wiz will win the division and the Heat will barely make the playoffs.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> The Wizards would have taken the division if both their players were not down.



People are sleeping on the Wizards here. Gilbert may be a jerk but he's a good player who could explode for a season, adding Nick Young, Perchoriv and retaining Blatche and Stevenson around Antwan and Caron Butler is a solid team. They still need to tweak there center spot but they'll be better then the Heat.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Jizzy said:


> No one is underrating them. How have they improved this offseason other then the growth and development of Dorrel Wright. He's a great, young piece but he's not going to get them to the next level or championship contention again. Wade will miss a first chunk of the season and Shaq will surely be overweight and out of shape and judging by last season, he may be winding down now, we say that alot but it's about that time. Losing Posey and Kapono hurts them tremendously and all they did was add a scrub in Smush Parker.
> 
> IMO, the Wiz will win the division and the Heat will barely make the playoffs.


Smush Parker>GP so that's an upgrade. Kapono never played a role in the championship, so for 24 million dollars none of us were all that sad to see him go. We wanted to keep Posey, so Dorell will have to fill that role. As Wade gets closer to around age 28 (he's 25 now), he'll keep improving. Shaq's in shape (generally when he loses in the playoffs he's in shape and pissed, but when he wins the championship he gets all lazy). So, our season boils down to this: Can Dorell give us what Posey gave us last season? If he can, then we're happy with the way we're built. Wade's given all indications that he's going to stick to the recovery pace set for him by the doctors, so he should miss the first 7 games of the season. That's manageable. We need Shaq, JWill, and Wade to each play 60-70 games. If we can get that from them, we'll be good to go.

Shaq only played 40 games last season. Wade played 51. If we can get Wade to play around 14 more, and Shaq to play around 20 more (neither of which is unreasonable), then we're in a significantly better position than last season.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Jizzy said:


> People are sleeping on the Wizards here. Gilbert may be a jerk but he's a good player who could explode for a season, adding Nick Young, Perchoriv and retaining Blatche and Stevenson around Antwan and Caron Butler is a solid team. They still need to tweak there center spot but they'll be better then the Heat.


Maybe it's just Heat fans, but we can't take a team seriously that we've only lost to once in our past 18 games against them, and we were missing Wade, Shaq, and JWill for that game. They've got to start playing some defense.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> The Wizards would have taken the division if both their players were not down.


And if both of our players weren't down, we would've blown them out of the water. What's your point?


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Jizzy said:


> No one is underrating them. How have they improved this offseason other then the growth and development of Dorrel Wright. He's a great, young piece but he's not going to get them to the next level or championship contention again. Wade will miss a first chunk of the season and Shaq will surely be overweight and out of shape and judging by last season, he may be winding down now, we say that alot but it's about that time. Losing Posey and Kapono hurts them tremendously and all they did was add a scrub in Smush Parker.
> 
> IMO, the Wiz will win the division and the Heat will barely make the playoffs.


Our improvement is our potential to finally be healthy from top to bottom. Wade will be better I'd assume, and Dorell should hopefully be improving. Shaq is in shape, I've heard from a VERY good source with the team (most of you know who I'm pointing towards) that he's basically on a no-nonsense diet for 1st time in his career. He knows his age is quickly catching him and he eat like he's 22 anymore. Shaq will be ready to go for training camp. JWill is on a contract year, if he wants a semi-decent payday next summer, he has to show something to the rest of the league. He was good in our title run, he wasn't good (or healthy) last year. 

As for Washington, on paper, they always look good. To me, the Wizards and Nets are the same thing. They look good, but when it comes down to it in April and May, they just don't get it done. Every year, theres something that holds them back. I don't have any fear playing Washington or New Jersey, we've already planted that seed in their minds that they simply can't beat us when it matters.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> Our improvement is our potential to finally be healthy from top to bottom. Wade will be better I'd assume, and Dorell should hopefully be improving. Shaq is in shape, I've heard from a VERY good source with the team (most of you know who I'm pointing towards) that he's basically on a no-nonsense diet for 1st time in his career. He knows his age is quickly catching him and he eat like he's 22 anymore. Shaq will be ready to go for training camp. JWill is on a contract year, if he wants a semi-decent payday next summer, he has to show something to the rest of the league. He was good in our title run, he wasn't good (or healthy) last year.
> 
> As for Washington, on paper, they always look good. To me, the Wizards and Nets are the same thing. They look good, but when it comes down to it in April and May, they just don't get it done. Every year, theres something that holds them back. I don't have any fear playing Washington or New Jersey, we've already planted that seed in their minds that they simply can't beat us when it matters.


Well with all due respect I have no fear of the Heat. like Jizzy said Wade will be injured in the beggining of the season, Shaq will be out of shape, Posey and Kapano 2 of your best bench players are gone, your super old team just got older and the only youth you have is Dorrel Wright and Wade. And all you've added is Smush Parker who is not better than gary Payton. I see the Heat fighting for the 8th spot than blowing it all up after that. But thats just my opinion. Washington has added a lot to their bench and Gilber looks hungry so they scare me. We added everything we were missing last season and now we have a decent starting PF. As for Moore he wasnt as good as he was given credit for. Anyone can make spoon feed passes from J-Kidd.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Flash is the Future said:


> Maybe it's just Heat fans, but we can't take a team seriously that we've only lost to once in our past 18 games against them, and we were missing Wade, Shaq, and JWill for that game. They've got to start playing some defense.


Thats true the Wizards need to play some D but I think they are looking for run and gun.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Thats true the Wizards need to play some D but I think they are looking for run and gun.


When has _that_ approach ever poduced results when it counts? Great offensive team. They just happen to be a terrible defensive team, which is kind of funny because only Antwan and Gilbert are their only bad defenders IMO. Their coach just doesn't happen to care about D for some reason.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Well with all due respect I have no fear of the Heat. like Jizzy said Wade will be injured in the beggining of the season, Shaq will be out of shape, Posey and Kapano 2 of your best bench players are gone, your super old team just got older and the only youth you have is Dorrel Wright and Wade. And all you've added is Smush Parker who is not better than gary Payton. I see the Heat fighting for the 8th spot than blowing it all up after that. But thats just my opinion. Washington has added a lot to their bench and Gilber looks hungry so they scare me. We added everything we were missing last season and now we have a decent starting PF. As for Moore he wasnt as good as he was given credit for. Anyone can make spoon feed passes from J-Kidd.


Shaq-Walker-JWill-Zo-Doleac-Penny who else is old? Maybe you should re-evaluate our roster before you call us 'old'...this summer we've taken on alot of young talent, allbeit unproven talent for most of them, but definitely a more youthful feel to our roster.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Well with all due respect I have no fear of the Heat. like Jizzy said Wade will be injured in the beggining of the season


For around 7 games. Just precautionary, as there's no reason to risk anything at the beginnin of the season. He's followin the doctors orders to a tee.


> Shaq will be out of shape


See here:


Shaq_Diesel said:


> Our improvement is our potential to finally be healthy from top to bottom. Wade will be better I'd assume, and Dorell should hopefully be improving. *Shaq is in shape, I've heard from a VERY good source with the team (most of you know who I'm pointing towards) that he's basically on a no-nonsense diet for 1st time in his career. He knows his age is quickly catching him and he eat like he's 22 anymore. Shaq will be ready to go for training camp.* JWill is on a contract year, if he wants a semi-decent payday next summer, he has to show something to the rest of the league. He was good in our title run, he wasn't good (or healthy) last year.


You haven't been here long, but Shaq_Diesel's scoops are as good as gold. He always pinpoints the situation, and history proves that. 


> Posey and Kapano 2 of your best bench players are gone, your super old team just got older and the only youth you have is Dorrel Wright and Wade.


Kapono doesn't really bother us. He was a bad rebounder and man defender, although he was good team defender and supurb shooter. Shooters are a dim a dozen when you surround them with Wade and Shaq. Posey will be missed, but it's Dorell's time to take his place. As for youth we've got DWade (25), Dorell Wright (21), Daequan Cook (20), Wayne Simien (23). Simien was a great collgege player, and he was great his first year with us. Then he ate some bad chicken and caught a nasty case of Salmonella that kept him out almost all of last year. He lost like 20 pounds, but it' been reported that he's gained that weight back. Smush is 26. UD is 27. The only "old" players we have on our team are Shaq(35), Zo(37), and Penny (36 if he makes the team). JWill is 31, which isn't young, but it's not truly old. Toine is 30, and it's the same story with him. The leaves Doleac as our next oldest player at the age of 30. I'll make a chart or you so that you understand the age of our probable team better:

PG: Jason Williams 31/Smush Parker 26/Chris Quinn 24
SG: Dwyane Wade 25/Penny Hardaway 36/Daequan Cook 20
SF: Dorell Wright 21/Antoine Walker 31/Jeremy Richardson 24
PF: Udonis Haslem 27/Wayne Simien 24/Alexander Johnson 24
C: Shaquille O'Neal 35/Alonzo Mourning 37/Michael Doleac 30

Average age: 27.67 years old. That's compared to an average age of 28.53 last year. If we would've stayed as we were last year, our average age would be 29.53 this year. Instead, it's 27.67. So, I'll repeat it. Shaq and Zo are old. But bigs generally don't decline as much as guards do because you don't lose your height. Penny's old, but he won't be relied on for more than 10-15MPG if he makes the team. JWill and Toine are just past their primes, but 30 and 31 isn't really old. Doleac's 30, but he's a jumpshooting 3rd string big (best 3rd stringer in the NBA ) Then the next oldest guy is 27. Any questions? 


> And all you've added is Smush Parker who is not better than gary Payton.


Yes, he is, and you're deluding yoursel if you think otherwise. GP had a PER of 9 last year! He shot 39.3% from the field, 26% from 3, and 66.7% fom the FT line. He was a liability on defense and offense. He did do a good job of taking care of the ball though. But Smush last year had a PER of 11.6 last year. He shot 45% fom the field, 36.5% from 3, and 64.9% from the line. We'll take Smush.


> I see the Heat fighting for the 8th spot than blowing it all up after that. But thats just my opinion. Washington has added a lot to their bench and Gilber looks hungry so they scare me. We added everything we were missing last season and now we have a decent starting PF. As for Moore he wasnt as good as he was given credit for. Anyone can make spoon feed passes from J-Kidd.


I'll agree with you regarding Moore. But it's the same deal with Kapono. Anyone looks good with Wade setting them up for wide open Js. Riley doesn't really blow anything up. No reason to, and he's always in win now mode. All that's left to our off-season is making a push for Pietrus. I think Artest and Bibby are out of reach for now (until it gets closer to the deadline and Sactown lowers their demands).


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

Since we're all being so optimistic, I'd just like to throw in my prediction for the Magic. With Rashard and Howard paired together, they're both going to have career seasons. Howard will dominate with the low post moves he's been working on all summer, and Rashard will show the world he actually IS worth $120 million(I heard from a good source he's been working on his defense). Meanwhile, J.J. Redick has been taking steriods and has bulked up tremendously. He's looks like a white Ron Artest now, so there will be no problems starting him alongside Nelson, who's been hanging out with Steve Nash all summer(I hear some of Nash's passing skills have worn off on him). Oh, and word on the street is that Patrick Ewing found the fountain of youth! Orlando says they only hired him as an assistant coach, but I think he's gonna come off the bench and provide the solid backup big man we've been missing. Frankly, I don't see how anyone is going to stop this team!


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> Shaq-Walker-JWill-Zo-Doleac-Penny who else is old? Maybe you should re-evaluate our roster before you call us 'old'...this summer we've taken on alot of young talent, allbeit unproven talent for most of them, but definitely a more youthful feel to our roster.


your 2nd best player, your starting pg, 3 of your best bench players are all old.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Flash is the Future said:


> For around 7 games. Just precautionary, as there's no reason to risk anything at the beginnin of the season. He's followin the doctors orders to a tee.
> 
> See here:
> 
> ...


I have to commend you for good arguments but I still think your main players are old and when I look at the youth of the league it seems hard to imagine Miami keeping up with them. I bet shaq will be worse and you cant improve much when your injured. From what I have seen vs the Nets none of the bench players are ready to pcik up pace and Dorell Wright seems to inexperienced to start. But we'll see as the season starts.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Feed_Dwight said:


> *Since we're all being so optimistic, I'd just like to throw in my prediction for the Magic*. With Rashard and Howard paired together, they're both going to have career seasons. Howard will dominate with the low post moves he's been working on all summer, and Rashard will show the world he *actually IS worth $120 million(I heard from a good source he's been working on his defense). Meanwhile, J.J. Redick has been taking steriods and has bulked up tremendously*.* He's looks like a white Ron Artest now, *so there will be no problems starting him alongside Nelson, who's been hanging out with Steve Nash all summer(I hear *some of Nash's passing skills have worn off on him*). Oh, and word on the street is that Patrick Ewing found the fountain of youth! Orlando says they only hired him as an assistant coach, but I think he's gonna come *off the bench and provide the solid backup big man *we've been missing. Frankly, I don't see how anyone is going to stop this team!


:lol: :lol: :lol: Im sorry man those parts literaly got me laughing out loud.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> your 2nd best player, your starting pg, 3 of your best bench players are all old.


Toine isn't really old, and neither is JWill. NBA players peak around 27-29, and they generally start to significantly dropoff around 33-34. JWill (31) and Toine (31) won't be in Miami by the time they start falling off the face of the Earth. 

Zo and Shaq are admittedly old. But Shaq's top 3 center in the league, and Zo's proven to be the best backup in the league for two years in a row despite his age. Penny's old though. And there's nothing that can be done about that. But if he can't play, then he'll get cut and replaced by a youngster like Slaughter.


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## jerseyfan24 (Jul 13, 2007)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> As for Moore he wasnt as good as he was given credit for. Anyone can make spoon feed passes from J-Kidd.


Dude did you watch Moore last season? I know Jason makes players look a lot better, but most of Moore points werent from him being under the basket for a dunk (even though he got some of those). Most of his points were from mid-range jumpshots and put-backs. I dont think Kidd put springs under him to jump up for vc's misses and slam them back down. Moore led the league in FG%. I know he wont be nearly as good this year in sacramento but he isnt purely a product of Kidd.

On the Nets and Wiz topic there is one key difference. In the playoffs the nets play defense, the wiz dont. And this year Management (for better or worse) has gotten rid of most of our bad defenders (House and Moore) and watching Kidd in the Fiba you can see that his defense is back to what it used to be.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

jerseyfan24 said:


> Dude did you watch Moore last season? I know Jason makes players look a lot better, but most of Moore points werent from him being under the basket for a dunk (even though he got some of those). Most of his points were from mid-range jumpshots and put-backs. I dont think Kidd put springs under him to jump up for vc's misses and slam them back down. Moore led the league in FG%. I know he wont be nearly as good this year in sacramento but he isnt purely a product of Kidd.
> 
> On the Nets and Wiz topic there is one key difference. In the playoffs the nets play defense, the wiz dont. And this year Management (for better or worse) has gotten rid of most of our bad defenders (House and Moore) and watching Kidd in the Fiba you can see that his defense is back to what it used to be.


No evertime the ball got to Moore I turned my head away.
How did Moore get the ball perfectly under the basket maybe it had something to do with J-Kidd. He got his midrange jumpers from passes from VC and kidd thats all he did make wide open shots they were never contested. Ask anyone on the Nets forum Moore is purely a product of Kidd. He sucked balls everywhere else he played.


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## jerseyfan24 (Jul 13, 2007)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> No evertime the ball got to Moore I turned my head away.
> How did Moore get the ball perfectly under the basket maybe it had something to do with J-Kidd. He got his midrange jumpers from passes from VC and kidd thats all he did make wide open shots they were never contested. Ask anyone on the Nets forum Moore is purely a product of Kidd. He sucked balls everywhere else he played.


Look up the threads from a year ago when the nets traded for Moore (I posted on the account in my sig til my computer got f'd up). Most people didnt care but the people who saw him play said they liked what they saw in limited minutes for the Clips and others. He never got a chance anywhere he went besides here. And I assure you many on the nets forum were sad to see him go including me (even though he doesnt deserve MLE). Also, read my post I said that he did get open dunks from Kidd and VC but that wasnt his main game and I also said Kidd made him look a lot better. Once again, his main game was his Mid-range jumpers and put-backs. It's not like the nets had any Post-presence that freed him up for his shots. They were not all wide open, but he made them at a great clip.

Over 50% (around 55%-60% look it up on Nba.com's shot chart.) of Moore's shots were from mid range, and he still shot 60% for the season leading the league in FG%. I dont remember any Net in the JKidd era who shot that high a percentage. I'll say Kidd definetly made him a lot better but he is not purely a Kidd product.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

As a clipper fan, i'm really disappointed that we ever let Moore walk away. He was worth keeping even before he met Jason Kidd.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

jerseyfan24 said:


> Look up the threads from a year ago when the nets traded for Moore (I posted on the account in my sig til my computer got f'd up). Most people didnt care but the people who saw him play said they liked what they saw in limited minutes for the Clips and others. He never got a chance anywhere he went besides here. And I assure you many on the nets forum were sad to see him go including me (even though he doesnt deserve MLE). Also, read my post I said that he did get open dunks from Kidd and VC but that wasnt his main game and I also said Kidd made him look a lot better. Once again, his main game was his Mid-range jumpers and put-backs. It's not like the nets had any Post-presence that freed him up for his shots. They were not all wide open, but he made them at a great clip.
> 
> Over 50% (around 55%-60% look it up on Nba.com's shot chart.) of Moore's shots were from mid range, and he still shot 60% for the season leading the league in FG%. I dont remember any Net in the JKidd era who shot that high a percentage. I'll say Kidd definetly made him a lot better but he is not purely a Kidd product.


They were ALL WIDE OPEN I can consistently make wide open jumpers. no one bothered guarding him and J-kidd got him perfect passes.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Feed_Dwight said:


> Since we're all being so optimistic, I'd just like to throw in my prediction for the Magic. With Rashard and Howard paired together, they're both going to have career seasons. Howard will dominate with the low post moves he's been working on all summer, and Rashard will show the world he actually IS worth $120 million(I heard from a good source he's been working on his defense). Meanwhile, J.J. Redick has been taking steriods and has bulked up tremendously. He's looks like a white Ron Artest now, so there will be no problems starting him alongside Nelson, who's been hanging out with Steve Nash all summer(I hear some of Nash's passing skills have worn off on him). Oh, and word on the street is that Patrick Ewing found the fountain of youth! Orlando says they only hired him as an assistant coach, but I think he's gonna come off the bench and provide the solid backup big man we've been missing. Frankly, I don't see how anyone is going to stop this team!



Yea, yeah, Dwight has developed low post skills, I'll beleive it when I see it. Three years in the league and it's the same thing every year with no result.

Rashard will NEVER be worth 120 mil unless he takes Orlando to the Finals.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Jizzy said:


> Yea, yeah, Dwight has developed low post skills, I'll beleive it when I see it. Three years in the league and it's the same thing every year with no result.
> 
> Rashard will NEVER be worth 120 mil unless he takes Orlando to the Finals.


He showed a jump hook for the 1st time his career this summer......against the US Virgin Islands :lol: 

Dwight is a monster, I'm not denying that, but he's gotta develop something more to his offensive game if he ever wants to be a franchise big man.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> He showed a jump hook for the 1st time his career this summer......against the US Virgin Islands :lol:
> 
> Dwight is a monster, I'm not denying that, but he's gotta develop something more to his offensive game if he ever wants to be a franchise big man.



It's amazing how inept he is offensively. Defensively and rebounding wise, the guy's a beast but how can he still not have any post moves? To think, with his physical features, if he had a set of go to moves, he would dominate like no other.


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## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

Flash is the Future said:


> Toine isn't really old, and neither is JWill. NBA players peak around 27-29, and they generally start to significantly dropoff around 33-34. JWill (31) and Toine (31) won't be in Miami by the time they start falling off the face of the Earth.
> 
> Zo and Shaq are admittedly old. But Shaq's top 3 center in the league, and Zo's proven to be the best backup in the league for two years in a row despite his age. Penny's old though. And there's nothing that can be done about that. But if he can't play, then he'll get cut and replaced by a youngster like Slaughter.


Shaq is not a top 3 center in the league (Yao, Duncan, Amare, Dwight, Al Jefferson all played a lot of minutes at center last year according to 82games.com)

Toine and JWill have dropped off in their production though. You can tell this by watching the game. You know it. I know it.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

silverpaw1786 said:


> Shaq is not a top 3 center in the league (Yao, Duncan, Amare, Dwight, Al Jefferson all played a lot of minutes at center last year according to 82games.com)
> 
> Toine and JWill have dropped off in their production though. You can tell this by watching the game. You know it. I know it.


Toine sucks. Admittedly. But I don't think it's from age. I think he just sucks. Fair?

JWill was playing through torn ligaments in his foot, torn stomach muscles etc last year. His knee was fine, but when he first came back from the knee surgery, he overcompensated and just could never get healthy. It's pretty obvious that when you're healthy, it's easier to stay healthy, and that when you're hurt, it's easier to stay hurt, because you're constantly compensating. JWill, however, has been working out 5 days per week this summer and says he's finally healthy. We'll take our chances, since aside from his 2 years in Miami, JWill has never been injury prone. 

Duncan IMO is a PF and always will be. And Shaq>>Al Jefferon for now (Al might explode this year on a bad team). I'd also take Shaq over Dwight, since according to many in this thread, Shaq turned a player that's one of a half dozen 20+ppg SGs into a top 5 player in the league. Can Dwight do that?


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## Balzac (Jun 29, 2006)

I may be in the minority again... but am I the only one who thinks Mikki Moore won't even shoot anything close to last season's average? The difference between Kapono and Moore, in regards to shooting, is range. The way a long range shooter can extend the defense is something of great value. It opens up space for your penetrators. 

The Heat lose a premiere 3pt specialist and it will change their offensive dynamics. Hopefully we don't have to see too much of Jason Williams dribbling for 7 seconds and then jacking up a shot. Or even worse... Antoine Walker. Let's just say that the Heat are extremely thin this upcoming season. If Shaq doesn't return to form, I really don't like their chances.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Flash is the Future said:


> Toine isn't really old, and neither is JWill. NBA players peak around 27-29, and they generally start to significantly dropoff around 33-34. JWill (31) and Toine (31) won't be in Miami by the time they start falling off the face of the Earth.


Antoine Walker clearly is not the player he was in his Boston days, when he was a borderline All-Star; it's fair to say his decline came earlier than the typical NBA player's. He absolutely was terrible a year ago.

Jason Williams is more suited as a backup point guard; anything more than 25 minutes per game exposes his weaknesses. Playing with Dwyane Wade in a somewhat interchangeable system makes him a little more useful (namely, the playmaking is not dependent upon him), but he definitely has no upside.



Flash is the Future said:


> Zo and Shaq are admittedly old. But Shaq's top 3 center in the league, and Zo's proven to be the best backup in the league for two years in a row despite his age. Penny's old though. And there's nothing that can be done about that. But if he can't play, then he'll get cut and replaced by a youngster like Slaughter.


That speaks more about the state of the center position than it does about Shaquille O'Neal at this stage of his career. With Alonzo Mourning, his health issues continue to hang a cloud over his availabilty.

The Miami Heat were a fairly unathletic team a year ago, and adding another year to the key players' birthdates don't help. This team barely made the playoffs a year ago and was ran off the floor by Chicago in the first round of the playoffs. One of its more athletic players leaves and there were no key additions/upgrades made. The Heat will make the playoffs at best.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Flash is the Future said:


> Toine sucks. Admittedly. But I don't think it's from age. I think he just sucks. Fair?
> 
> JWill was playing through torn ligaments in his foot, torn stomach muscles etc last year. His knee was fine, but when he first came back from the knee surgery, he overcompensated and just could never get healthy. It's pretty obvious that when you're healthy, it's easier to stay healthy, and that when you're hurt, it's easier to stay hurt, because you're constantly compensating. JWill, however, has been working out 5 days per week this summer and says he's finally healthy. We'll take our chances, since aside from his 2 years in Miami, JWill has never been injury prone.
> 
> Duncan IMO is a PF and always will be. And Shaq>>Al Jefferon for now (Al might explode this year on a bad team). I'd also take Shaq over Dwight, since according to many in this thread, *Shaq turned a player that's one of a half dozen 20+ppg SGs into a top 5 player in the league*. Can Dwight do that?


And thats what Im sayin Flash.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Balzac said:


> I may be in the minority again... but am I the only one who thinks Mikki Moore won't even shoot anything close to last season's average? The difference between Kapono and Moore, in regards to shooting, is range. The way a long range shooter can extend the defense is something of great value. It opens up space for your penetrators.
> 
> The Heat lose a premiere 3pt specialist and it will change their offensive dynamics. Hopefully we don't have to see too much of Jason Williams dribbling for 7 seconds and then jacking up a shot. Or even worse... Antoine Walker. Let's just say that the Heat are extremely thin this upcoming season. If Shaq doesn't return to form, I really don't like their chances.


Agreed Moore will suck this season.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Balzac said:


> I may be in the minority again... but am I the only one who thinks Mikki Moore won't even shoot anything close to last season's average? The difference between Kapono and Moore, in regards to shooting, is range. The way a long range shooter can extend the defense is something of great value. It opens up space for your penetrators.
> 
> The Heat lose a premiere 3pt specialist and it will change their offensive dynamics. Hopefully we don't have to see too much of Jason Williams dribbling for 7 seconds and then jacking up a shot. Or even worse... Antoine Walker. Let's just say that the Heat are extremely thin this upcoming season. If Shaq doesn't return to form, I really don't like their chances.


The Heat are still better than the Nets IMO. I think Shaq realizes he's close to the end and I think he will have a good season. Plus I expect the Heat's younger players to step up to the plate (Wright and Cook). Let's not forget about Dwayne Wade who was never close to 100% after he injured his shoulder. He is still a top 3 player in the league when he's healthy.


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## jman23 (Aug 13, 2007)

james posey gets dunked on by nate robinson.........
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## HB (May 1, 2004)

f22egl said:


> *The Heat are still better than the Nets IMO.* I think Shaq realizes he's close to the end and I think he will have a good season. Plus I expect the Heat's younger players to step up to the plate (Wright and Cook). Let's not forget about Dwayne Wade who was never close to 100% after he injured his shoulder. He is still a top 3 player in the league when he's healthy.


Thats like me saying the Heat are better than the Wiz. Expecting Cook and Wright to somehow save their season is laughable. The Nets have one of the best starting five in the East, and I'd definitely take their bench over Miami's


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> And thats what Im sayin Flash.


I didn't expect anyone to agree with that :lol:


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Najee said:


> Antoine Walker clearly is not the player he was in his Boston days, when he was a borderline All-Star; it's fair to say his decline came earlier than the typical NBA player's. He absolutely was terrible a year ago.
> 
> Jason Williams is more suited as a backup point guard; anything more than 25 minutes per game exposes his weaknesses. Playing with Dwyane Wade in a somewhat interchangeable system makes him a little more useful (namely, the playmaking is not dependent upon him), but he definitely has no upside.
> 
> ...


Zo was one of the healthiest players on our team last year... Toine lost his confidence last year, but I'll take my chances with him. He can still give us what he gave us in 2005-2006 IMO. JWill's fine. We like him. We'll have replaced Posey with Dorell, and GP with Smush. We got more athletic.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

HB said:


> *Thats like me saying the Heat are better than the Wiz. *Expecting Cook and Wright to somehow save their season is laughable. The Nets have one of the best starting five in the East, and I'd definitely take their bench over Miami's


I still think they are too.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

No they are not. Look at Flash's sig, can you not see they have one of the worst benches in the league.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

HB said:


> No they are not. Look at Flash's sig, can you not see they have one of the worst benches in the league.


Well, Smush and Zo are good enough. We do need a backup SF though. Maybe Toine will return to form and fill that role. If not, we've still gotta go for Pietrus.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

f22egl said:


> The Heat are still better than the Nets IMO. I think Shaq realizes he's close to the end and I think he will have a good season. Plus I expect the Heat's younger players to step up to the plate (Wright and Cook). Let's not forget about Dwayne Wade who was never close to 100% after he injured his shoulder. He is still a top 3 player in the league when he's healthy.


The Nets got past the first round and the Nets had to beat the Bulls to get the 6th seed which the Heat could not do.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

*I would be realistic about Miami, if I were you*



Flash is the Future said:


> Zo was one of the healthiest players on our team last year...


It still doesn't change the fact that Alonzo Mourning is a 37-year-old center with a history of kidney problems. His health always will be a major concern because his situation may force him to leave in a short notice. 



Flash is the Future said:


> Toine lost his confidence last year, but I'll take my chances with him. He can still give us what he gave us in 2005-2006 IMO.


It sounds like you're banking on Antoine Walker's reputation more than where he is in his career. He was nothing short of horrendous this past season: 8.5 points per game on ghastly shooting clips (.397 FG%, .438 FT%, .275 3P%), 4.3 rebounds and 1.7 assists and a 9.6 PER. 

In order for Miami to be competitive, Walker will have to give the Heat what he used to give Boston in his salad days. The problem is that Walker has not been that player since the 2001-02 season.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

*Re: I would be realistic about Miami, if I were you*



Najee said:


> It still doesn't change the fact that Alonzo Mourning is a 37-year-old center with a history of kidney problems. His health always will be a major concern because his situation may force him to leave in a short notice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You do realize that we won a championship with Antoine Walker giving us 12/5, right? We don't need him to give us what he gave us in his Boston days. We need Wade and Shaq to be healthy. Second of all, Zo has been the picture of health with Miami since he came back. He tore one calf muscle in 2006, but that's been the worst injury he's had. There's been nothing to imply that he'd have any other problems. Please don't go there.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

*Again, you're not realistic*



Flash is the Future said:


> You do realize that we won a championship with Antoine Walker giving us 12/5, right?


Miami also was two years younger and players like Shaquille O'Neal were more effective. Given the age and decline of players like Shaq, in order to play at that same level two years ago Antoine Walker would have to be a more productive player than what he has shown in Miami. The reality is that Walker has declined; he's just done it at a younger age. 



Flash is the Future said:


> Second of all, Zo has been the picture of health with Miami since he came back. He tore one calf muscle in 2006, but that's been the worst injury he's had. There's been nothing to imply that he'd have any other problems. Please don't go there.


You're not being realistic if you actually feel that a man who has had a kidney transplant does not run the risk of something adversely affecting his health. As it is, you're depending on a 37-year-center to play a major role -- which historically can be a longshot.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> The Nets got past the first round and the Nets had to beat the Bulls to get the 6th seed which the Heat could not do.


Even though Wade came back, he was not 100%. Therefore, I would expect the Heat to be better then they were last year.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

f22egl said:


> Even though Wade came back, he was not 100%. Therefore, I would expect the Heat to be better then they were last year.


Who cares! you got swept swept. you can make all the excuses you want you should have won at least 1 game.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

*Re: Again, you're not realistic*



Najee said:


> You're not being realistic if you actually feel that a man who has had a kidney transplant does not run the risk of something adversely affecting his health. As it is, you're depending on a 37-year-center to play a major role -- which historically can be a longshot.


I don't know if you've been watching the Miami Heat lately but I feel like the officials tend to give Alonzo Mourning the benefit of the doubt. He gets away playing an aggressive style and usually gets favorable calls. I can't figure out if he earned it because he's a veteran or if it's because the officials feel sorry because of the kidney condition he deals with.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Who cares! you got swept swept. you can make all the excuses you want you should have won at least 1 game.


I'm not a Miami Heat fan; I'm a Wizards fan.


----------



## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

*Re: Again, you're not realistic*



f22egl said:


> I don't know if you've been watching the Miami Heat lately but I feel like the officials tend to give Alonzo Mourning the benefit of the doubt. He gets away playing an aggressive style and usually gets favorable calls. I can't figure out if he earned it because he's a veteran or if it's because the officials feel sorry because of the kidney condition he deals with.


That's an interesting topic. On offense he gets a lot of offensive fouls called against him because at times he likes to just bulldoze people down. But on defense, he definitely gets the calls that an all time great shotblocker should get. The two DPOYs have something to do with that too. If Zo gets a block, it's probably not going to get called a foul. He's had a great shotblocking technique his whole career, so I guess the officials agree.


----------



## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Who cares! you got swept swept. you can make all the excuses you want you should have won at least 1 game.


Ouch. We got *swept swept*? :lol:


----------



## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

*Re: Again, you're not realistic*



Najee said:


> Miami also was two years younger and players like Shaquille O'Neal were more effective. Given the age and decline of players like Shaq, in order to play at that same level two years ago Antoine Walker would have to be a more productive player than what he has shown in Miami. The reality is that Walker has declined; he's just done it at a younger age.
> 
> 
> 
> You're not being realistic if you actually feel that a man who has had a kidney transplant does not run the risk of something adversely affecting his health. As it is, you're depending on a 37-year-center to play a major role -- which historically can be a longshot.


I've already said I'm not going there with Zo, and I've politely asked you not to go there either. As for Toine, I think he can give us what he gave us two years ago. Same with Zo. The difference is, Smush should be able to give us more than GP did. And a healthy JWill should also be able to give us what he gave us playing hurt (knee) in 2005-2006. Then it comes down to Dorell and Wade. Wade still hasn't peaked, he's 25, and he should keep getting better until age 28. That means it's down to Dorell giving us what Posey did, which I think he's capable of. Wade getting better makes up for Shaq getting worse.


----------



## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

HB said:


> No they are not. Look at Flash's sig, can you not see they have one of the worst benches in the league.


You're right; that has to be one of the worst benches in the league. I forgot the Heat did not re-sign Eddie Jones and somehow I thought they had more options available off the bench. 

I certainly like New Jersey's chances against the Heat more than last year with the addition of Jamaal Magloire and the return of a healthy Nenad Kristic. However, I still think Shaq has enough in the tank to give the Heat the advantage down low. Carter's inconsistency in the post season would also scare me away from picking the Nets. But if Miami does not make anymore offseason moves, I could see the Nets at least having a shot of taking down the Heat in the postseason. 

As for the Wizards, I believe they are still 1-19 in their last 20 games against the Heat. Although I think matters could change with Smush Parker trying to guard Gilbert Arenas.


----------



## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

f22egl said:


> You're right; that has to be one of the worst benches in the league. I forgot the Heat did not re-sign Eddie Jones and somehow I thought they had more options available off the bench.
> 
> I certainly like New Jersey's chances against the Heat more than last year with the addition of Jamaal Magloire and the return of a healthy Nenad Kristic. However, I still think Shaq has enough in the tank to give the Heat the advantage down low. Carter's inconsistency in the post season would also scare me away from picking the Nets. But if Miami does not make anymore offseason moves, I could see the Nets at least having a shot of taking down the Heat in the postseason.
> 
> As for the Wizards, I believe they are still 1-19 in their last 20 games against the Heat. Although I think matters could change with Smush Parker trying to guard Gilbert Arenas.


Wasn't Kobe guarding Gil when he got destroyed? As for our bench, it's still not a finished product and Pietrus is #1 on our list.


----------



## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

I also haven't been able to update my sig due to the new rules. Here's how we'll currently look:

PG: Jason Williams/Smush Parker/Chris Quinn
SG: Dwyane Wade/Daequan Cook/Penny Hardaway
SF: Dorell Wright/Antoine Walker/Jeremy Richardson
PF: Udonis Haslem/Wayne Simien/Alexander Johnson
C: Shaquille O'Neal/Alonzo Mourning/Michael Doleac


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

f22egl said:


> You're right; that has to be one of the worst benches in the league. I forgot the Heat did not re-sign Eddie Jones and somehow I thought they had more options available off the bench.
> 
> I certainly like New Jersey's chances against the Heat more than last year with the addition of Jamaal Magloire and the return of a healthy Nenad Kristic. However, I still think Shaq has enough in the tank to give the Heat the advantage down low. Carter's inconsistency in the post season would also scare me away from picking the Nets. But if Miami does not make anymore offseason moves, I could see the Nets at least having a shot of taking down the Heat in the postseason.
> 
> As for the Wizards, I believe they are still 1-19 in their last 20 games against the Heat. Although I think matters could change with Smush Parker trying to guard Gilbert Arenas.


And New Jersey is a brilliant 1-8 against Miami in the playoffs since Shaq came to town. The Nets are a little tougher than the Wiz, but they've been nothing but a bump in the road to Miami for most of the Shaq/Wade era.



Flash is the Future said:


> I also haven't been able to update my sig due to the new rules. Here's how we'll currently look:
> 
> PG: *Jason Williams/Smush Parker*/Chris Quinn
> SG: *Dwyane Wade*/Daequan Cook/Penny Hardaway
> ...


And honestly, when it comes down to it, Riley will play a 8-9 man rotation. We have a pretty decent 8 man rotation, and Simien may get minutes eventually. He was part of our early season rotation as a rookie, but who knows if he's ready to contribute off the bench. If the bold players are what we're looking at, we're not a bad team if healthy. Not great, and probably not title contenders, but a good playoff team.


----------



## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: Again, you're not realistic*



Flash is the Future said:


> I've already said I'm not going there with Zo, and I've politely asked you not to go there either.


Last I looked, you can't dictate what anyone says on this thread no more than I can dictate what you can say. If you don't want to discuss the risk of relying on a 37-year-old center with chronic kidney problems only for your convenience, that's not my problem.



Flash is the Future said:


> As for Toine, I think he can give us what he gave us two years ago. Same with Zo. The difference is, Smush should be able to give us more than GP did.


The Antoine Walker you're referring to (2005-06) was also in decline from his prime days; the 2006-07 was an even bigger decline. You should be praying for a Walker who is closer to his 2001-02 season, because that one is a significant upgrade over the one who played two years ago.

Smush Parker (11.6 PER) wasn't that much better than Gary Payton in 2006-07 (9.0), so you're really getting a younger version of the same caliber player.



Flash is the Future said:


> Then it comes down to Dorell and Wade. Wade still hasn't peaked, he's 25, and he should keep getting better until age 28. That means it's down to Dorell giving us what Posey did, which I think he's capable of.


Dwyane Wade is a given; the problem is that he and Udonis Haslem are the only reliable players on Miami's team at this moment. Age, injury, and declining talent are too much to overcome, IMO. This was the same team that got ran off the court by Chicago in the first round of the playoffs and its major addition so far is Parker (who is hardly an upgrade over a 38-year-old washed-up GP). We'll see if Shaquille O'Neal, Walker, et al will find the Fountain of Youth.


----------



## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Double post.


----------



## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Flash is the Future said:


> Wasn't Kobe guarding Gil when he got destroyed? As for our bench, it's still not a finished product and Pietrus is #1 on our list.


Smush Parker started guarding Gilbert the beginning of the 60 point game. Since Parker was doing a terrible job guarding Arenas, they gave the defensive assignment to Farmar, and finally to Kobe.

Pietrus may be a number 1 target in free agency but the Warriors do not appear to want to let him go since they rejected the Heat's proposed sign and trade deal.


----------



## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

f22egl said:


> You're right; that has to be one of the worst benches in the league. I forgot the Heat did not re-sign Eddie Jones and somehow I thought they had more options available off the bench.
> 
> I certainly like New Jersey's chances against the Heat more than last year with the addition of Jamaal Magloire and the return of a healthy Nenad Kristic. However, I still think Shaq has enough in the tank to give the Heat the advantage down low. Carter's inconsistency in the post season would also scare me away from picking the Nets. But if Miami does not make anymore offseason moves, I could see the Nets at least having a shot of taking down the Heat in the postseason.
> 
> As for the Wizards, I believe they are still 1-19 in their last 20 games against the Heat. Although I think matters could change with Smush Parker trying to guard Gilbert Arenas.


Carter was triple teamed and injured the Cavs series.


----------



## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> And New Jersey is a brilliant 1-8 against Miami in the playoffs since Shaq came to town. The Nets are a little tougher than the Wiz, but they've been nothing but a bump in the road to Miami for most of the Shaq/Wade era.
> 
> 
> 
> And honestly, when it comes down to it, Riley will play a 8-9 man rotation. We have a pretty decent 8 man rotation, and Simien may get minutes eventually. He was part of our early season rotation as a rookie, but who knows if he's ready to contribute off the bench. If the bold players are what we're looking at, we're not a bad team if healthy. Not great, and probably not title contenders, but a good playoff team.


This isnt the Miami championship team where Shaq, Alonzo, and Payton were all starving for a championship. Everyone is much older and worse. You've added a few inexperienced young players but its not the same. The Nets caneasily contend with the Heat now and they did in the regular season.


----------



## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

f22egl said:


> Smush Parker started guarding Gilbert Arenas in the beginning Gilbert in the beginning of the 60 point. Since Parker was doing a terrible job guarding Arenas, they gave the defensive assignment to Farmar, and finally to Kobe.
> 
> Pietrus may be a number 1 target in free agency but the Warriors do not appear to want to let him go since they rejected the Heat's proposed sign and trade deal.


I remember Smush Parker constantly getting abused by Kidd. Hes an average backup nothing more. The Lakers were'nt too sad to see him go.


----------



## Balzac (Jun 29, 2006)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Carter was *triple teamed* and injured this season.


???


----------



## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

*Re: Again, you're not realistic*



Najee said:


> Last I looked, you can't dictate what anyone says on this thread no more than I can dictate what you can say. If you don't want to discuss the risk of relying on a 37-year-old center with chronic kidney problems only for your convenience, that's not my problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not going to speculate on Zo's health taking a turn for the worse! End of discussion. Welcome to my ignore list, and potentially that of all Heat fans. There are certain things which are best left unsaid, and you're obviously not mature enough to realize that.


----------



## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> This isnt the Miami championship team where Shaq, Alonzo, and Payton were all starving for a championship. Everyone is much older and worse. You've added a few inexperienced young players but its not the same. The Nets caneasily contend with the Heat now and they did in the *regular season*.


:greatjob:


----------



## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

f22egl said:


> Smush Parker started guarding Gilbert the beginning of the 60 point game. Since Parker was doing a terrible job guarding Arenas, they gave the defensive assignment to Farmar, and finally to Kobe.
> 
> Pietrus may be a number 1 target in free agency but the Warriors do not appear to want to let him go since they rejected the Heat's proposed sign and trade deal.


I don't really know what's up with Pietrus right now. He's not going to get anything more than the QO, but he still hasn't signed yet. There's been ongoing discussions with the Warriors, so I'm not sure what's going to happen. So go figure. Most of the Warriors fans I've spoken with on realgm would be happy with Doleac, 3 million dollars cash, and our 2008 1st round pick for Pietrus, but a few of them suspect that Riley has only offered Doleac and 1 or 2 second round picks. We'll see what happens, because we're thin at SF.


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> *Carter was triple teamed* and injured this season.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

So wait, the opposing teams would just leave 2 guys wide open? Why didn't the Nets win more?

"Triple-teamed" if that doesn't scream - I DON'T KNOW BASKETBALL - when someone reads that post by you, I really don't know what to say.


----------



## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> So wait, the opposing teams would just leave 2 guys wide open? Why didn't the Nets win more?
> 
> "Triple-teamed" if that doesn't scream - I DON'T KNOW BASKETBALL - when someone reads that post by you, I really don't know what to say.


I can't even remember Shaq or Wade getting triple teamed more than 5- in their whole Miami Heat careers.


----------



## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> So wait, the opposing teams would just leave 2 guys wide open? Why didn't the Nets win more?
> 
> "Triple-teamed" if that doesn't scream - I DON'T KNOW BASKETBALL - when someone reads that post by you, I really don't know what to say.


I mean during the Cavs series and of course Im overexagerating. But that was Cleveland's main focus. They threw Larry Hughes and Pavlovic at him while he had I forget I think it was tendonitis in his knee which was reported later. If you watched the series you'd realize Moore was ALWAYS open. They didnt worry about the post because umm Jason Collins cant make a layup and Moore is no threat in the post.


----------



## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

eh, as a Heat fan I am used to hearing Nets fan say they are going to beat us

the problem for them is it never materializes. Heat own the Nets, and as long as Wade is on the court opposite Vince, I don't expect things to change.


----------



## dwade3 (Sep 12, 2005)

the Heat do own the Nets, but vince plays particulary well in offense against Miami....i think if Dorell has put on some muscle, he will help soften the blow left by Posey, i heard Dorell is like 6'10 now.....so he has the length and quikness to cover SF/PFs....lets hope he has the strength and determination that separates a good player from a great player....


----------



## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> I mean during the Cavs series and of course Im overexagerating. But that was Cleveland's main focus. They threw Larry Hughes and Pavlovic at him while he had I forget I think it was Tandotris in his knee which was reported later. If you watched the series you'd realize Moore was ALWAYS open. They didnt worry about the post because umm Jason Collins cant make a layup and Moore is no threat in the post.



WTF is tandrotis? Do you mean tendonitis?


----------



## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

LamarButler said:
 

> WTF is tandrotis? Do you mean tendonitis?


lol..

and i'd take heat over nets anytime in the playoffs, and as far as im concerned the nets have yet to prove that they dont suck in the post season..
and vince carter is NEVER triple teamed, rarely even double teamed until its really necessary.


----------



## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

LamarButler said:


> WTF is tandrotis? Do you mean tendonitis?


Tandrotis is a rare disaese that causes uncontrollable wincing, and at stressful times it can shut down the air waves causing asphyxiation. Unfortunately for Vince, it's uncurable.


----------



## sknydave (Apr 27, 2006)

*Re: Again, you're not realistic*



Najee said:


> You're not being realistic if you actually feel that a man who has had a kidney transplant does not run the risk of something adversely affecting his health. As it is, you're depending on a 37-year-center to play a major role -- which historically can be a longshot.


I would actually consider it a positive for him to stay in top physical shape. Sitting around doing nothing or training with some of the best athletes in the world... HMMM I wonder which is better for his health?


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

NewAgeBaller said:


> lol..
> 
> and i'd take heat over nets anytime in the playoffs, and as far as im concerned the nets have yet to prove that they dont suck in the post season..
> and vince carter is NEVER triple teamed, rarely even double teamed until its really necessary.


Lets not get carried away here, Vince Carter is the Nets best player offensively and considering Nenad was out for most of the year its not really a stretch to say he sees constant doubles and occasional triples, especially when RJ was injured. Watch a game or two, you might learn something


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> eh, as a Heat fan I am used to hearing Nets fan say they are going to beat us
> 
> the problem for them is it never materializes. Heat own the Nets, and as long as Wade is on the court opposite Vince, I don't expect things to change.


Was this not the same Heat team that got swept last year? Am I missing something here. How have they improved their team, what needs did they address this offseason?


----------



## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

HB said:


> Lets not get carried away here, Vince Carter is the Nets best player offensively and considering Nenad was out for most of the year its not really a stretch to say he sees constant doubles and occasional triples, especially when RJ was injured. Watch a game or two, you might learn something


How often, in your entire life, have you ever seen a perimeter player get triple-teamed? Sideline trap, maybe (though usually that only takes two players). Collapsing defense on the drive? Sure, happens to everyone. Hedging the pick-and-roll? Absolutely.

But an actual triple team? On the perimeter? It doesn't happen, and it's a little disingenuous for people in this thread to say it happens to Vince all the time, or even occasionally.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Diophantos said:


> How often, in your entire life, have you ever seen a perimeter player get triple-teamed? Sideline trap, maybe (though usually that only takes two players). Collapsing defense on the drive? Sure, happens to everyone.
> 
> But an actual triple team? On the perimeter? It doesn't happen, and it's a little disingenuous for people in this thread to say it happens to Vince all the time, or even occasionally.


Occasional* being the operative word. Watch the games again, when the Heat had Eddie Jones, they had Udonis and Zo or Shaq waiting for him every time he ventured into the paint. And I never said he was triple teamed on the perimeter

BTW you do know that Riley himself said that his whole defense was designed to STOP Vince. On a team that has rarely had any consistent outside shooting, is it really that hard to focus a defense on the best offensive player


----------



## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

HB, can you please close this thread?


----------



## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

FYI, Vince was double teamed all of last year, especially in the post leaving wide open looks to Mikki Moore, Eddie House and Boki Nachbar.


----------



## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

LamarButler said:


> WTF is tandrotis? Do you mean tendonitis?


sure


----------



## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

NewAgeBaller said:


> lol..
> 
> and i'd take heat over nets anytime in the playoffs, and as far as im concerned the nets have yet to prove that they dont suck in the post season..
> and vince carter is NEVER triple teamed, rarely even double teamed until its really necessary.


They just beat Tornto didnt they and at least competed with the Cavs while the Heat got umm swept by a completely inexperienced Bulls team who the Nets dominated.


----------



## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Jizzy said:


> FYI, Vince was double teamed all of last year, especially in the post leaving wide open looks to Mikki Moore, Eddie House and Boki Nachbar.


Thankyou. Vince was not triple-teamed. Am I allowed to overexagerate calm down everybody. And yes Vince was totally covered in the cavs series. He could barely move.


----------



## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> Was this not the same Heat team that got swept last year? Am I missing something here. How have they improved their team, what needs did they address this off season?


yea, it pretty much is the same heat team that got beat last year. Except that the hope is Wade is healthy, as he got 2 surgeries to fix up some nagging issues

but it wasn't by the Nets. We owned the Nets like we usually do last year.


----------



## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> sure


Is that a yes or no?

Maybe I've just never heard of "tandrotis".


----------



## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

LamarButler said:


> Is that a yes or no?
> 
> Maybe I've just never heard of "tandrotis".


No your probably right.


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

> Your search - tandrotis - did not match any documents.
> 
> Suggestions:
> 
> ...


http://www.google.com/search?q=tand...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Rawse said:


> http://www.google.com/search?q=tand...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


Ok sorry I mispelled a word no need to be all hostile.


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Ok sorry I mispelled a word no need to be all hostile.


I'm just pointing out that my search turned up with nothing.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

HB said:


> Occasional* being the operative word. Watch the games again, when the Heat had Eddie Jones, they had Udonis and Zo or Shaq waiting for him every time he ventured into the paint. And I never said he was triple teamed on the perimeter
> 
> BTW you do know that Riley himself said that his whole defense was designed to STOP Vince. On a team that has rarely had any consistent outside shooting, is it really that hard to focus a defense on the best offensive player





Jizzy said:


> FYI, Vince was double teamed all of last year, especially in the post leaving wide open looks to Mikki Moore, Eddie House and Boki Nachbar.


Vince is obviously a very talented player, and anyone as talented as him is going to get double teams thrown at him. But even to say Vince was doubled most of last year is exaggerating a bit. You can't be successful defensively by doubling a guy for a majority of the night. 

You are probably right that Riley geared his defense towards stopping Vince. Assuming this was about the 2nd round series a year ago, that was our plan. Kidd isn't going to beat you scoring, and Jefferson can't carry a team offensively, so if you shut down Vince, you are playing the odds that the "supporting cast" can't outscore you. Against a team like the Nets, who has essentially 3 "good" offensive players, that's probably the best strategy. Like HB said, Zo/Shaq/Udon were waiting in the paint for Vince (or any other penetration), when you have no post players who can realistically scare you to score much, why would you respect their game? Take away the drive and force Vince/RJ/etc. to beat you from the perimeter. You couldn't do that against say.....Denver, where you have two big talents like Melo and AI. You couldn't do that against Miami b/c Shaq or Wade can carry a team on their back, etc.


----------



## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Shaq_[QUOTE said:


> Diesel]Vince is obviously a very talented player, and anyone as talented as him is going to get double teams thrown at him. But even to say Vince was doubled most of last year is exaggerating a bit. You can't be successful defensively by doubling a guy for a majority of the night


. 
Why did Moore always get open jumpers? 95% of his jumpers were wide open. And Im specificly talking about the Cavs series they barely guarded the post at all.


> You are probably right that Riley geared his defense towards stopping Vince. Assuming this was about the 2nd round series a year ago, that was our plan. Kidd isn't going to beat you scoring, and Jefferson can't carry a team offensively, so if you shut down Vince, you are playing the odds that the "supporting cast" can't outscore you.


And yet you didnt. Vince was awesome that series so was RJ. It was Kidd, Kristic, and Cliffy who ultamitely chocked. And Rj had to get injured again.


> Against a team like the Nets, who has essentially 3 "good" offensive players, that's probably the best strategy.


Not true at all. Nachbar, Kristic, Magloire, and Marcus are all good offensively. Especially Nachbar.


> Like HB said, Zo/Shaq/Udon were waiting in the paint for Vince (or any other penetration), when you have no post players who can realistically scare you to score much, why would you respect their game? Take away the drive and force Vince/RJ/etc. to beat you from the perimeter. You couldn't do that against say.....Denver, where you have two big talents like Melo and AI. You couldn't do that against Miami b/c Shaq or Wade can carry a team on their back, etc


Kristic and Magloire are both decent post players. And like I said before Miami didnt do a very good job of containing them. Our bench ruined us.


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Shaq_.
> Why did Moore always get open jumpers? 95% of his jumpers were wide open. And Im specificly talking about the Cavs series they barely guarded the post at all.
> And yet you didnt. Vince was awesome that series so was RJ. It was Kidd said:
> 
> ...


----------



## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

u obviously dont understand how a triple team is used.
when vc drives into the lane and the defence collapses on him, thats not a triple team. otherwise wade was triple teamed every game in the 06' playoffs. now,, vc is rarely even double teamed, if only for a short period of time (ie. wen hes on fire).
and how does tandrotis or wateva excuse vc from playing inconsistently/poorly wen wade was recovering from shoulder separation and had tendonitis in his knee..?
and still: Heat > Nets in the playoffs.


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Not true at all. Nachbar, Kristic, Magloire, and Marcus are all good offensively.


Magloire is a horribly inefficient offensive player.


----------



## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> HeaVINsent15 said:
> 
> 
> > Magloire has never played a minute against the Heat as a Net, and, no, he's not a very good post player. If my memory serves me right, he was greatly exposed against BRIAN GRANT, SAMAKI WALKER, and UDONIS (as a rookie) the last playoff series he faced us (and he was an "all star" that year). Atleast Krstic can pull Shaq/Zo away from the paint, Magloire is decent, but nothing special, he'd be our 3rd center.
> ...


----------



## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

Wow, 188 posts on a James Posey thread.....


----------



## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

NewAgeBaller said:


> u obviously dont understand how a triple team is used.
> when vc drives into the lane and the defence collapses on him, thats not a triple team. otherwise wade was triple teamed every game in the 06' playoffs. now,, vc is rarely even double teamed, if only for a short period of time (ie. wen hes on fire).
> and how does tandrotis or wateva excuse vc from playing inconsistently/poorly wen wade was recovering from shoulder separation and had tendonitis in his knee..?
> and still: Heat > Nets in the playoffs.


Ok wow wheree did this come from.
1. You dont even know what your talking about. did you watch the Cavs series no.
2. LET THIS BE KNOWN TO EVERYONE. For the last time Vince wasnt triple teamed. God I overexageratted and I get about 10 posts screaming at me for it. Vince was the Cavs basic focus. They threw their 2 best defenders at him. Sice they ddnt have to guard the post (Collins, Moore) they constantly guarded the perimeter. Collins and Moore cant rebound so yeah they got all those rebounds and killed us like that. Vince was nearly always double teamed.
3. It doesnt excuse him but that made Vince play worst. Especially a swingman who really needs his knees. When your injured and constantly double teamed your not going to play that well. Wade didnt play well either the Heat got swept.


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Shaq_Diesel said:
> 
> 
> > When did I say Magloire was a very good post player. Hes decent. He would be your backup pf. Magloire is nothing more than a decent starter who used to be an all-star. And who knows how much better he'll be with J-Kidd. I know we were not good enough. But how is that relevent to Rj's and Vince's production. Both of them kept on scoring 20+. Ultimately Kristic totally chocked, Kidd messed up with the inbounds pass when a hungry Vince Carter was ready to take the shot, our only good bench player did Pot, and the rest of our bench sucked as usual. Ultimately we realized our bench sucked so badly against the Heat's we couldnt win and overplaying our starters was'nt the answer. Now I'm not making excuses you guys won fair and square but I'm just statin the main reasons why we lost. Miami is not 05-06 Miami anymore and this Miami doesn't have a better bench than us, has a hole at sf, and has questions about whether its 2 stars can remain healthy.
> ...


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Ok wow wheree did this come from.
> 1. You dont even know what your talking about. did you watch the Cavs series no.
> *2. LET THIS BE KNOWN TO EVERYONE. For the last time Vince wasnt triple teamed. God I overexageratted and I get about 10 posts screaming at me for it. Vince was the Cavs basic focus. They threw their 2 best defenders at him. Sice they ddnt have to guard the post (Collins, Moore) they constantly guarded the perimeter. Collins and Moore cant rebound so yeah they got all those rebounds and killed us like that. Vince was nearly always double teamed.*
> 3. It doesnt excuse him but that made Vince play worst. Especially a swingman who really needs his knees. When your injured and constantly double teamed your not going to play that well. Wade didnt play well either the Heat got swept.


So what you're saying is that he didn't even get double teamed, the post player 'shadowed' him to cut off his penetration lane? 

So we've stepped back from Vince being triple teamed, to simply getting some extra attention?!?!


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> HeaVINsent15 said:
> 
> 
> > New Jersey doesn't have holes? They have nothing to speak of inside, just big bodies, and NO - Jamaal Magloire really doesn't change that. He's an average at best post player.
> ...


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Shaq_Diesel said:


> So what you're saying is that he didn't even get double teamed, the post player 'shadowed' him to cut off his penetration lane?
> 
> So we've stepped back from Vince being triple teamed, to simply getting some extra attention?!?!


Yes he got double teamed I said he didnt get triple teamed. I wasnt serious when I made that post.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Carmelo Anthony in the playoffs is the only perimeter player I've ever seen triple-teamed.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Carmelo Anthony in the playoffs is the only perimeter player I've ever seen triple-teamed.


How?


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Carmelo Anthony in the playoffs is the only perimeter player I've ever seen triple-teamed.





HB said:


> How?


"Triple-teamed" being dropped again...:clap: 

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Ok wow wheree did this come from.
> 1. You dont even know what your talking about. did you watch the Cavs series no.
> 2. LET THIS BE KNOWN TO EVERYONE. For the last time Vince wasnt triple teamed. God I overexageratted and I get about 10 posts screaming at me for it. Vince was the Cavs basic focus. *They threw their 2 best defenders at him*. Sice they ddnt have to guard the post (Collins, Moore) they constantly guarded the perimeter. Collins and Moore cant rebound so yeah they got all those rebounds and killed us like that. Vince was nearly always double teamed.
> 3. It doesnt excuse him but that made Vince play worst. Especially a swingman who really needs his knees. When your injured and constantly double teamed your not going to play that well. Wade didnt play well either the Heat got swept.


Not really.

He was guarded by Pavlovic most of the time. While he's much improved defensively from the last few years, he's not one of our two best defenders. If we wanted to put our two best perimeter defenders on him, we would have used Snow and Lebron. Snow guarded him occasionally, but Lebron was on RJ for most of the time.

In fact, Pavlovic was doing just fine as it was. We didn't really double team very much at all.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Brandname said:


> Not really.
> 
> He was guarded by Pavlovic most of the time. While he's much improved defensively from the last few years, he's not one of our two best defenders. If we wanted to put our two best perimeter defenders on him, we would have used Snow and Lebron. Snow guarded him occasionally, but Lebron was on RJ for most of the time.
> 
> In fact, Pavlovic was doing just fine as it was. We didn't really double team very much at all.


Pavlovic was a very good defender from what I've seen Whenever snow was in the game he was on Carter and Hughes is also a very good defender who was on Carter. Lebron was not always on RJ, Whenever Vince moved a little close to the rim Lebron would come and help. It was a team effort to stop Vince.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Pavlovic was a very good defender from what I've seen Whenever snow was in the game he was on Carter and Hughes is also a very good defender who was on Carter. Lebron was not always on RJ, *Whenever Vince moved a little close to the rim Lebron would come and help. *It was a team effort to stop Vince.


That's called help defense. Not a double or triple team.


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## jerseyfan24 (Jul 13, 2007)

Vince didnt make it particularly difficult to be stopped against the cavs and for half of the raps series as well.
With the whole tendonitis thing, I believe it was reported by one not very well known outlet and no one else. If it was told to the press Im sure it would have came out in some other net columns but havent seen one about it since.
As of right now I would probably take the Heat over the nets in the playoffs but it really depends on the health of both teams, and both teams are very different from the last time they met.
I cant believe how off-topic this thread has gotten, and how it is still active. Post 200 in this thread!


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

So he was double teamed and Lebron would also help.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

jerseyfan24 said:


> Vince didnt make it particularly difficult to be stopped against the cavs and for half of the raps series as well.
> With the whole tendonitis thing, I believe it was reported by one not very well known outlet and no one else. If it was told to the press Im sure it would have came out in some other net columns but havent seen one about it since.
> As of right now I would probably take the Heat over the nets in the playoffs but it really depends on the health of both teams, and both teams are very different from the last time they met.
> I cant believe how off-topic this thread has gotten, and how it is still active.


Maybe Vince doesnt want people to know he was injured.


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## jerseyfan24 (Jul 13, 2007)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Maybe Vince doesnt want people to know he was injured.


Then why would one media outlet know he was injured. It wasnt even an article about it, it was more like a sentence saying he had tendonitis. I doubt this journalist had inside info, I dont even know if they covered the nets.


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## LameR (Jan 4, 2004)

Wait, isn't this thread about the Celtics?


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

-EDIT- nvmd


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## banner17 (Jun 28, 2003)

Will all you Nets and Heat whiners go start your own thread. Neither team has a chance in hell of going far in the playoffs. No one cares who has the better bench between them as it won't matter.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

banner17 said:


> Will all you Nets and Heat whiners go start your own thread. Neither team has a chance in hell of going far in the playoffs. No one cares who has the better bench between them as it won't matter.


What bench do the Celts have?


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## banner17 (Jun 28, 2003)

HB said:


> What bench do the Celts have?



Tony Allen
James Posey
Eddie House
Scott Pollard
Gabe Pruit
Glen Davis
Leon Powe
Brian Scalabrine


a lot better than the Nets or Heat, that's for sure


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

lol, good bench you got there.


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## banner17 (Jun 28, 2003)

myst said:


> lol, good bench you got there.


and who does the heat have?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

banner17 said:


> Tony Allen
> James Posey
> Eddie House
> Scott Pollard
> ...


Nets bench
Marcus Williams
Josh Boone
Robert Hite
Malik Allen
Sean Williams
Antoine Wright
Boki Nachbar
Jamal Magloire/Jason Collins (depends on which one starts)

Are you really sure the Celtics bench is better? Outside of Posey and maybe House I wouldnt want any of the guys on the Celts bench


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

No way in hell the Celtics bench is better then the Nets.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

Alonzo Mourning
Dorell Wright
Smush Parker
Wayne Simien
Penny Hardaway
Michael Doleac
Daequan Cook
Alexander Johnson
Chris Quinn
Joel Anthony
Devin Green
Jeremy Richardson
Marcus Slaughter


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

The significance of the difference in the Celtics' bench and the Heat or Nets' bench is far less than the significance of the difference in the Celtics' starting lineup and the Heat or Nets' starting lineup. Follow? Point being that the Celtics are superior, overall.


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

myst said:


> lol, good bench you got there.


You're not really in a position to say that when one of your starters last season is on the Celtics bench.

My bad, I forgot that you guys have Smush Parker, fresh out the NBDL as instant offense off the bench--for both teams. 

And I also forgot that you guys got a Hardway on your bench, whose old as dirt, injury prone, and hasn't played for a long time.

And Dorell Wright isn't much either. I hear everybody hyping this guy up, but he hasn't proven ****.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Posey started 19 games last year 

He played best off the bench. Dorell will likely start IMO, relegating Toine to the bench. The main thing on our bench is Zo, who's the best backup center in the league. You guys use Smush as a scapegoat, but he gets steals and makes 3s. Sound good to me. At least that's more than GP does.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

Premier said:


> The significance of the difference in the Celtics' bench and the Heat or Nets' bench is far less than the significance of the difference in the Celtics' starting lineup and the Heat or Nets' starting lineup. Follow? Point being that the Celtics are superior, overall.


Well you're obviously just a homer so your opinion doesn't count /greenfont


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

Flash is the Future said:


> Posey started 19 games last year
> 
> He played best off the bench. Dorell will likely start IMO, relegating Toine to the bench. The main thing on our bench is Zo, who's the best backup center in the league. You guys use Smush as a scapegoat, but he gets steals and makes 3s. Sound good to me. At least that's more than GP does.


Oh well, Posey still played 4 more minutes than Walker. Doesn't matter if he starts, it just matters that he meant a whole lot to your team, and now he's on the Celtics bench. Anyways, he started in your guys' championship season.

If Dorell starts and Antoine Walker is on the bench, that'll give you a stronger bench but a weaker starting lineup. Not much point in doing that. 

Zo is great, but he's really getting up there in age. He'll see a decline in production. 

I can tell you from being a Lakers fan, for every steal that Smush gets you, he'll get burnt 5 times. He's a horrible defender. Horrible. And for a guy who does nothing but score, he's not very good at it. In 34 minutes per game with no offensive option outside of Kobe, he averaged 12 points a game. A scoring specialist that can't score? Doesn't sound good to me.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

LamarButler said:


> You're not really in a position to say that when one of your starters last season is on the Celtics bench.
> 
> My bad, I forgot that you guys have Smush Parker, fresh out the NBDL as instant offense off the bench--for both teams.
> 
> ...


You missed something. I never said the Heat's bench was better, I was laughing at him saying the Celtics bench was good. Then he asked me who was on the Heat's bench, so I answered. 

And wait, you're a Wizards fan and talking about the Heat's bench? Oh come on.

Edit: Now I see you said you're a Lakers fan, even better lol.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

myst said:


> You missed something. I never said the Heat's bench was better, I was laughing at him saying the Celtics bench was good. Then he asked me who was on the Heat's bench, so I answered.
> 
> And wait, you're a Wizards fan and talking about the Heat's bench? Oh come on.
> 
> Edit: Now I see you said you're a Lakers fan, even better lol.


ouch :lol:


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

You know its the off-season when...a thread on James Posey is 15 pages long.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

Knick_Killer31 said:


> You know its the off-season when...a thread on James Posey is 15 pages long.


You know you're living in the past when you have a picture of no-ring Reggie as your avatar.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

banner17 said:


> Tony Allen
> James Posey
> Eddie House
> Scott Pollard
> ...


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 
I see a 30+ vet whos all washed up. A 6 foot sg who easily injured and cant play D. Then I see 2 very inexperienced players. An overpayed scrub and Gabe Puitt? What in the world are you talking about. The Celtics have the worst bench in the entire league.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Premier said:


> The significance of the difference in the Celtics' bench and the Heat or Nets' bench is far less than the significance of the difference in the Celtics' starting lineup and the Heat or Nets' starting lineup. Follow? Point being that the Celtics are superior, overall.


Wrong again. The Celtics bench absolutely sucks. No one on their would get any minutes on the Spurs or Suns except Posey and sometimes House. Then the Heat and Nets have at least a decent player at every position. The Nets have 3 stars then a good maybe great center and a decent former all-star pf. The Celtics have 2 washed up guards who havent been to the playoffs in years, are used to getting all the touches they want, and have never played with any other player of their magnitude. Then of course KG who also hasnt played with another all-star and is used to gettng all hte touches he wants. Plus none of these players have played even 1 game with eachother before. They have a 2nd year totally below average pg starting with no one to back him up. And then they have Kendrick Perkins who oft. injured and othing special. Ofcourse their coach sucks horribly. So we'll see where the Celts end up during playoff time. The Nets with a team whos been together for years, with a coach who started out 13-0, and a pg who makes everyone he sees better. We'll see who wins the division. Ofcourse I would'nt count the Raptors out either.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

liekomgj4ck said:


> You know you're living in the past when *you're a pacers fan. lol.*


fixed it dawg.


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## jayk009 (Aug 6, 2003)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Wrong again. The Celtics bench absolutely sucks. No one on their would get any minutes on the Spurs or Suns except Posey and sometimes House. Then the Heat and Nets have at least a decent player at every position. The Nets have 3 stars then a good maybe great center and a decent former all-star pf. The Celtics have 2 washed up guards who havent been to the playoffs in years, are used to getting all the touches they want, and have never played with any other player of their magnitude. Then of course KG who also hasnt played with another all-star and is used to gettng all hte touches he wants. Plus none of these players have played even 1 game with eachother before. They have a 2nd year totally below average pg starting with no one to back him up. And then they have Kendrick Perkins who oft. injured and othing special. Ofcourse their coach sucks horribly. So we'll see where the Celts end up during playoff time. The Nets with a team whos been together for years, with a coach who started out 13-0, and a pg who makes everyone he sees better. We'll see who wins the division. Ofcourse I would'nt count the Raptors out either.



Wow, are all nets fans like this???


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

jayisthebest88 said:


> Wow, are all nets fans like this???


Thats his opinion, no need to generalize


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

NewAgeBaller said:


> fixed it dawg.


:lol: repped


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Wrong again. The Celtics bench absolutely sucks. No one on their would get any minutes on the Spurs or Suns except Posey and sometimes House. Then the Heat and Nets have at least a decent player at every position. The Nets have 3 stars then a good maybe great center and a decent former all-star pf. The Celtics have 2 washed up guards who havent been to the playoffs in years, are used to getting all the touches they want, and have never played with any other player of their magnitude. Then of course KG who also hasnt played with another all-star and is used to gettng all hte touches he wants. Plus none of these players have played even 1 game with eachother before. They have a 2nd year totally below average pg starting with no one to back him up. And then they have Kendrick Perkins who oft. injured and othing special. Ofcourse their coach sucks horribly. So we'll see where the Celts end up during playoff time. The Nets with a team whos been together for years, with a coach who started out 13-0, and a pg who makes everyone he sees better. We'll see who wins the division. Ofcourse I would'nt count the Raptors out either.


ok so you basically have zero nba knowledge at all after saying what you just did about pierce/allen/KG.

completely wrong, almost laughable


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

jayisthebest88 said:


> Wow, are all nets fans like this???


You can always visit the Nets board and ascertain for yourself.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

LamarButler said:


> Oh well, Posey still played 4 more minutes than Walker. Doesn't matter if he starts, it just matters that he meant a whole lot to your team, and now he's on the Celtics bench. Anyways, he started in your guys' championship season.
> 
> If Dorell starts and Antoine Walker is on the bench, that'll give you a stronger bench but a weaker starting lineup. Not much point in doing that.
> 
> ...


Walker didn't really start either. It was mainly Kapono and EJ, but they're gone now. Losing Kapono isn't really a big deal (he was a scrub when we won the ship), and EJ wasn't even there (the curse). Posey didn't start when we won the ship either. He did the first 64 games of the regular season, but Toine started the last 18 games of the regular season and in the playoffs that year. Posey was a 7ppg 4.5rpg hustler. Dorell can give us everything + some other than the charge taking and the 3 point shooting. We've seen him, and so will you. Zo actually had better stats in 2006-2007 than he did in 2005-2006. He has improved his past 3 seasons in a Heat uniform. As for Smush, I never claimed he was good. But only him, Jason Kidd, Gilbert Arenas, and Kobe Bryant made more than 110 3s and got 110 steals each of the past 2 seasons. Also, he's young, athetic, and healthy. It's not about Smush being good - it's the fact that he's much better than the shell of GP that disgraced a Heat uniform last year. That's all.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

liekomgj4ck said:



> You know you're living in the past when you have a picture of no-ring Reggie as your avatar.


Ouuuuuch.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Reggie haters phtttt...

How can you dislike Reggie?


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

How can you dislike Reggie?

Be a fan of any Eastern Conference team. Esp. the Bulls, Knicks and Heat.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

Flash is the Future said:


> Reggie haters phtttt...
> 
> How can you dislike Reggie?


sixers fan


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

myst said:


> And wait, you're a Wizards fan and talking about the Heat's bench? Oh come on.
> 
> Edit: Now I see you said you're a Lakers fan, even better lol.


Hmmmm so I can't like 1 player for the Wizards or I'm a Wizards fan?


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Wrong again. The Celtics bench absolutely sucks. No one on their would get any minutes on the Spurs or Suns except Posey and sometimes House. Then the Heat and Nets have at least a decent player at every position. The Nets have 3 stars then a good maybe great center and a decent former all-star pf. The Celtics have 2 washed up guards who havent been to the playoffs in years, are used to getting all the touches they want, and have never played with any other player of their magnitude. Then of course KG who also hasnt played with another all-star and is used to gettng all hte touches he wants. Plus none of these players have played even 1 game with eachother before. They have a 2nd year totally below average pg starting with no one to back him up. And then they have Kendrick Perkins who oft. injured and othing special. Ofcourse their coach sucks horribly. So we'll see where the Celts end up during playoff time. The Nets with a team whos been together for years, with a coach who started out 13-0, and a pg who makes everyone he sees better. We'll see who wins the division. Ofcourse I would'nt count the Raptors out either.


Dude your on crack if you think the Nets are gonna have a better record than the Celtics.

Garnett > Kidd
Pierce > Carter
Allen > Jefferson

Ok


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

mods please delete this


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

LamarButler said:


> Hmmmm so I can't like 1 player for the Wizards or I'm a Wizards fan?


Are you on crack? I don't know you. I saw a Wizards avatar so I assumed you were a Wizards fan. Then I saw that you wrote that you were a Lakers fan so I said nevermind. :azdaja:


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

myst said:


> How can you dislike Reggie?
> 
> Be a fan of any Eastern Conference team. Esp. the Bulls, Knicks and Heat.


As Heat fans though, can't we appreciate what he did in MSG?


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

You can appreciate it as a fan of basketball and skill. But not as a fan of the Heat.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

Flash is the Future said:


> Reggie haters phtttt...
> 
> How can you dislike Reggie?


No kidding. What's not to like? He was an exciting player and a class-act off the court. And he didn't go ring chasing at the end of his career like Karl Malone, Gary Payton etc. He did think about it though haha. 

But since the NFL season has started I'm going to change the avatar. But this wont be the last you see of Reggie. Muhahaha


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