# Bryant pushing for trade



## Bulldozer

*Bryant pushing for trade*

*LAKERS: Buss is said to be shocked after a meeting with his All-Star guard in Spain.*
10:51 PM PDT on Friday, June 15, 2007
By BRODERICK TURNER
The Press-Enterprise



> Disgruntled Lakers guard Kobe Bryant met with Lakers owner Jerry Buss on Friday in Barcelona, Spain, and reiterated his demand to be traded, two league sources said.
> 
> Buss was shocked by Bryant's continued and defiant stance, the sources said, and left the meeting unsure if he would give in to Bryant's demands or if he would keep the All-Star, knowing it'll be "impossible" to get equal value in return.
> 
> The Lakers confirmed Friday night that Bryant and Buss did meet. Bryant was in Barcelona on vacation, and Buss was on vacation in China before going to London and then to Barcelona.
> 
> "Our position is that it's a private meeting between the two of them and it shall remain private between the two of them," Lakers public relations director John Black said Friday night in a phone interview.
> 
> Bryant's agent, Rob Pelinka, didn't return messages.
> 
> Bryant began his campaign to force a trade almost three weeks ago by venting in a barrage of interviews on radio stations and in newspapers.
> 
> His last public comments had him wanting to be traded, rescinding those demands and then still wanting to be traded, all coming on the same day.
> 
> Bryant is the only NBA player with a no-trade clause in his contract. He had said he would waive that clause. *But he could make a trade more difficult because he has a three-team wish list, the sources said. Two of the teams are the Chicago Bulls and New York Knicks.*
> *
> One report had the Lakers hoping to acquire Bulls center Ben Wallace, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng and Chicago's No. 1 draft pick (9) for Bryant.*
> 
> But the sources said every team, including the Bulls, knows the Lakers will try to "gut" a team in order to get as much value as possible for Bryant.
> 
> Bryant could also veto a trade if he thinks the team has to give up too many players, which, the sources said, could also make a trade more difficult.
> 
> For a team to acquire Bryant, it cannot swap one or more players exceeding 125 percent of his $19,490,625 million salary he'll earn this season.
> 
> Bryant has a 15-percent trade kicker in his contract the team that acquires him has to pick up for $13,289,062 million that would be amortized over the last four years of his contract.
> 
> Bryant has an "early termination option" in his contract which allows him to opt out after the 2009 season, meaning he could leave the Lakers without the team getting any compensation.
> 
> He has four years and $88,593,750 million left on his contract.


They can hope to get Deng all they want. I think Kobe would want to play in Chicago instead of N.Y. especially when you consider his lust to be "1 up" on MJ (i.e. # change to 24).

I think Kobe can force the Lakers hand into:

Kobe
Vlad
#19

for

Wallace
Gordon
Duhon
#9
2008 #1

Bulls draft a big at #19, and we can start the new dynasty :yay:


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## McBulls

Bulldozer said:


> I think Kobe can force the Lakers hand into:
> 
> Kobe
> Vlad
> #19
> 
> for
> 
> Wallace
> Gordon
> Duhon
> #9
> 2008 #1
> 
> Bulls draft a big at #19, and we can start the new dynasty :yay:


Who would play center for the Bulls? Wallace + Gordon is plenty.

It's a little strange that NY is on his list, but they should have no trouble making a deal. They have a ton of oversized salaries to match Kobe's.


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## theanimal23

We must keep Lu, Kirk, and Ty.

The trade I proposed a while back
Noce (S&T)
Gordon (Replace Kobe)
Thabo (2/3)
Duhon (Replaces Smush)
Viktor (Expiring, can just cut him)
2008 1st
2010 1st if needed


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## Bulldozer

McBulls said:


> Who would play center for the Bulls? Wallace + Gordon is plenty.
> 
> It's a little strange that NY is on his list, but they should have no trouble making a deal. They have a ton of oversized salaries to match Kobe's.


S&T of Noc might get us a serviceable big. I really don't know, but if we get Kobe and get to keep Deng and Hinrich, we have to send Wallace to match $$$.


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## McBulls

How much do you offer for a disgruntled player that has the option to walk away in 2 years?

My best offer would be:
PJ Brown (resigned)
Sweetney (resigned)
Khryapa
Gordon
2008 and 2010 picks plus 3 2nd round picks

For Kobe

If they don't like that, we'll wait till 2009 when he can just walk away from wherever he's at.

OR

They could have
Wallace, Gordon and the 2007 pick for Bynum and Kobe.


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## smARTmouf

How bout a 4 team deal?

The principles involving Chicago(Ben Gordon) Lakers(Kobe) Phoenix(Marion) and Sacramento(Artest) ?


All depends on what we add to Ben Gordon to insure we have enough salary going out.

We want Kobe, Kobe wants out..Lakers get 2 stars....Phoenix wants to shave salary while becoming tougher with an Artest addition...Sacramento wants to rid themselves of their headache...

Perhaps sending Deng OR the 9th to Sacramento completes it..

Personally I think this is ground zero...It would seem we'd have to just make Sacramento happy in this scenerio.


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## Bulldozer

McBulls said:


> How much do you offer for a disgruntled player that has the option to walk away in 2 years?
> 
> 
> If they don't like that, we'll wait till 2009 when he can just walk away from wherever he's at.
> 
> OR
> 
> They could have
> Wallace, Gordon and the 2007 pick for Bynum and Kobe.


Since Kobe's expressed his desire to play in Chicago, and how "close" he was signing with us as a FA a few years ago, I don't think he'd be disgruntled here to ask for a trade. As far as Bynum, supposedly there's video of Kobe bashing him to no end, so I'd imagine he wants to get away from that situation if anything.


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## MikeDC

Got to be some sort of sign and trade including Brown, Noc, or Sweetney. It just doesn't make much sense to trade Wallace in an effort to get Kobe. The whole idea of getting Kobe is to be as good as possible in the next couple of years.

I still think the Lakers will figure out some move to appease him and get him more immediate help. I think a Wallace for Bynum and change trade is way more likely than a Wallace for Kobe trade.

Supposedly the Lakers couldn't come to terms with the Pacers who wanted both Odom and Bynum for Jermaine O'Neal, so maybe we could step in with offering Wallace for one of them and make a deal? Maybe we get their #19 pick too.

Here's a couple deals that work under the trade rules:
*Deal 1*
Bulls trade Wallace to the Lakers
Bulls get Zach Randolph, Andrew Bynum

Pretty straightforward. We get size and scoring both. We swap an older guy for two younger guys who can both contribute immediately.

Lakers trade Kwame Brown, Vlad Radmanovic, Bynum
Lakers get Ben Wallace

Again, how much do the Lakers want to put pieces around Kobe. This lets them keep Odom and with Wallace, Odom, Walton, Kobe, they've got 4 of 5 high quality players. They still have to figure out how to get a PG. Maybe the deal could be expanded to give them Duhon?

Blazers trade Randolph
Blazers get Radmanovic, Kwame

This isn't an absolutely spectacular trade on the surface because Radmanovic isn't exactly in high demand (the Lakers, of course, want to be rid of him). But it gives the Blazers significant salary relief and Radmanovic is a big 3 who's a really good shooter. Sounds like a very good fit for them.

--------------
*Deal 2
*Bulls trade Wallace to Lakers, Bulls get Brown, Radmanovic, Bynum from Lakers
We take on another 3/4 tweener in Radmanovic, who's taller and better shooter (historically) than Noc, but not anything close to him as a defender. I don't know how that deal works out for us in that respect, except I also like Bynum.

Deal 3
Bulls trade Wallace, Lakers trade Odom, Maurice Evans

I don't know that the Lakers do this, except in that they aren't super enthusiastic with Odom and could fill the hole he leaves mostly with Radman and Walton. He could be the big man in many of the sort of unorthodox. lineups we use though, and he's young and can play.


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## BG7

The thing that happened, was Lakers backed out of the Jermaine O'neal talks because they didn't want to give up Andrew "piece of overrated ****" Bynum in the deal, and were instead of trying to push Kwame Brown onto the Pacers....when the Nuggets want to trade Marcus Camby straight up for Brown....Camby/O'neal > O'neal/Bynum imho. Lakers are idiots.

My proposed trade would be:

Bulls Trade:

Kirk Hinrich
PJ Brown (resigned)
Andres Nocioni (resigned)
Viktar Khryapa
#9 pick
2008 First Round Pick 

Lakers Trade:

Kobe Bryant
Vladmir Radmanovic

This trade would work under Collective Bargaining Agreement by the slimmest of margins. 

Its basically like my other trade offer, only in this one since it looks like its going to go to nuclear warfare, Bryant vs. Buss, no need to give up Thomas in addition to Hinrich. Then they just get a rookie, draft picks, Nocioni.

That'd give us:

G-Ben Gordon
G-Kobe Bryant
SF-Luol Deng
PF-Tyrus Thomas
C- Ben Wallace

Thats a pretty sick starting lineup. Defensively, its probably better than our team last year. Thabo is the 6th man, backing up the shooting guard and small forward spots for us. Duhon will play the backup point. Then we use the MLE to bring in big man backups (bringing back Malik Allen for the vets minimum probably....).

If they want it done on draft night, then do Kirk Hinrich + Ben Wallace for Kobe Bryant.


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## PD

Only something like this would make sense, especially if the Bulls and Kobe want to compete. 

Gordon ($5M)
Safo ($2M)
Thomas ($3.5)or (our 9th pick and throw in Duhon)
Noc(Resigned at $8M next year, $7M after, and so on)
Throw in Sweetney to make the deal work financially.

Kobe would want Wallace and Deng on his team. Hinrich is a keeper especially with Bryant on the team. Brown probably would consider resigning. And our MLE may bring us a veteran big man. 

Chad Ford's deals on the Insider are also good for us. 

He simply suggests Thomas, Gordon, Brown (re-signed), and our 9th pick.


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## BG7

PD said:


> Only something like this would make sense, especially if the Bulls and Kobe want to compete.
> 
> Gordon ($5M)
> Safo ($2M)
> Thomas ($3.5)or (our 9th pick and throw in Duhon)
> Noc(Resigned at $8M next year, $7M after, and so on)
> Throw in Sweetney to make the deal work financially.
> 
> Kobe would want Wallace and Deng on his team. Hinrich is a keeper especially with Bryant on the team. Brown probably would consider resigning. And our MLE may bring us a veteran big man.
> 
> Chad Ford's deals on the Insider are also good for us.
> 
> He simply suggests Thomas, Gordon, Brown (re-signed), and our 9th pick.


In the end....who cares whether want to compete. 

Keep Gordon, Deng, just out of principle of them being the best 2 players.

Keep Tyrus because he could be a superstar in the future, especially being pushed by a guy like Kobe. 

Then Ben Wallace stays for default.

They get Nocioni, Brown, and some draft picks.

Then try to push them into taking Thabo and Duhon....give up Hinrich at last resort.

What the Lakers want doesn't really matter. Paxson's trying to build a contender...best way to do that is to keep Gordon/Deng (obviously, who gives up their best players in these types of deals), and get a Kobe level player back. That Gordon/Sefo/Thomas/Noc trade makes us worse imho. Definitely not better, not pushing us over the top into where we're watching, and saying, yeah, we're right up there with San Antonio. I would feel worse about that team's chances than if we just stayed put.

What Paxson needs to do is talk to Kobe's agent, and develop a war plan, and tell him that Gordon/Deng/Thomas/Wallace will be 4/5 of the starting lineup. That Kobe would take the 5th spot. Make Kobe want his destination to be Chicago over the Knicks.


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## PD

Mebarak said:


> In the end....who cares whether want to compete.
> 
> Keep Gordon, Deng, just out of principle of them being the best 2 players.
> 
> Keep Tyrus because he could be a superstar in the future, especially being pushed by a guy like Kobe.
> 
> Then Ben Wallace stays for default.
> 
> They get Nocioni, Brown, and some draft picks.
> 
> Then try to push them into taking Thabo and Duhon....give up Hinrich at last resort.
> 
> What the Lakers want doesn't really matter. Paxson's trying to build a contender...best way to do that is to keep Gordon/Deng (obviously, who gives up their best players in these types of deals), and get a Kobe level player back. That Gordon/Sefo/Thomas/Noc trade makes us worse imho. Definitely not better, not pushing us over the top into where we're watching, and saying, yeah, we're right up there with San Antonio. I would feel worse about that team's chances than if we just stayed put.
> 
> What Paxson needs to do is talk to Kobe's agent, and develop a war plan, and tell him that Gordon/Deng/Thomas/Wallace will be 4/5 of the starting lineup. That Kobe would take the 5th spot. Make Kobe want his destination to be Chicago over the Knicks.


Certainly I agree with you if we can push the Lakers, and try to keep as much as possible. My debate is between Gordon and Hinrich. Who is better playing with Kobe, and more so who can bring us back more. I really like to keep Hinrich and Duhon to guard Wade, Billups, Arenas, Redd, and other star guards in the East. Gordon no doubt is good but with Kobe on the team, there may be no need for him. Plus, he will get us more in return, and likely command a bigger extensive than Hinrich's. I love Thomas but we can not say that he will be a star in the league.


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## Aesop

I don't see how a sign-and-trade (Noc, Brown, etc.) could work if this year's pick is also included. Since free agency won't start until July 1, the pick would have already been made by that time. Even if a gentleman's agreement is reached as to who that player should be, there is no guarantee that the player involved in the sign-and-trade would agree to the trade.


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## Bulldozer

PD said:


> Only something like this would make sense, especially if the Bulls and Kobe want to compete.
> 
> Gordon ($5M)
> Safo ($2M)
> Thomas ($3.5)or (our 9th pick and throw in Duhon)
> Noc(Resigned at $8M next year, $7M after, and so on)
> Throw in Sweetney to make the deal work financially.
> 
> Kobe would want Wallace and Deng on his team. Hinrich is a keeper especially with Bryant on the team. Brown probably would consider resigning. And our MLE may bring us a veteran big man.
> 
> Chad Ford's deals on the Insider are also good for us.
> 
> He simply suggests Thomas, Gordon, Brown (re-signed), and our 9th pick.


That's the best scenario, I'd hope L.A. would take something like that.

The thing about including Wallace though, is he's an "attraction", that would fill Laker seats, and they can remain competitive at the same time. I feel its imperative to include Wallace because of the money and "star" factor.

We could also take Kwame from them, I believe Skiles can get more out of him than PJax. Would they give up that expiring though?

Wallace
Gordon
Du
Griff
#9 

for 

Kobe
Kwame

Championship lineup:
Hinrich
Kobe
Deng
TT
Kwame

*Noc


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## BG7

PD said:


> Certainly I agree with you if we can push the Lakers, and try to keep as much as possible. My debate is between Gordon and Hinrich. Who is better playing with Kobe, and more so who can bring us back more. I really like to keep Hinrich and Duhon to guard Wade, Billups, Arenas, Redd, and other star guards in the East. Gordon no doubt is good but with Kobe on the team, there may be no need for him. Plus, he will get us more in return, and likely command a bigger extensive than Hinrich's. I love Thomas but we can not say that he will be a star in the league.


Gordon is the better fit when Scott Skiles inevitably gets fired, and Phil Jackson comes back and puts in the triangle offense.


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## Bulldozer

I'd love to keep Gordon, especially since he can hit the open jumper when Kobe gets double and triple teamed... but he becomes much more valuable to the Lakers if they're trading Kobe, so L.A. has to get that scoring back. If we lose Wallace to acquire Kobe, then that means the frontcourt D takes a hit, and this makes keeping Hinrich better for overall team balance.


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## McBulls

PD said:


> Only something like this would make sense, especially if the Bulls and Kobe want to compete.
> 
> Gordon ($5M)
> Safo ($2M)
> Thomas ($3.5)or (our 9th pick and throw in Duhon)
> Noc(Resigned at $8M next year, $7M after, and so on)
> Throw in Sweetney to make the deal work financially.
> 
> Kobe would want Wallace and Deng on his team. Hinrich is a keeper especially with Bryant on the team. Brown probably would consider resigning. And our MLE may bring us a veteran big man.
> 
> Chad Ford's deals on the Insider are also good for us.
> 
> He simply suggests Thomas, Gordon, Brown (re-signed), and our 9th pick.


Both you and Chad are offering too much. Kobe is not worth 3 good players. Two will do. I consider Thomas, the 9th pick and Gordon to be good players. Nocioni is a pretty good player too. Sefolosha -- well, we really don't know, do we?

Pick 2 of the above and add enough filler and low picks to make a package. If that's not enough, it's not enough. Time to walk away.

So, for example, 
Gordon ($5 M)
Nocioni ($3.5 M)
Sweetney ($4 M)
Brown ($8 M)
should take care of salaries. Add the 2008 1st round pick and be done. After all, Kobe could decide to take a walk in 2 years. He ain't worth much more than what I listed.

Of course, New York could offer 
Steve Francis
Stefan Marbury
David Lee
and picks, picks, picks.

Which offer would you take?


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## BeZerker2008

This'll be interesting if the Lakers do give in to his demands. If we can assure keeping bryant for a long time then I'd do a trade. I wouldn't however gut the team as they would like to I'd keep Kirk, Lu, & possibly Nocioni, everyone else would be up. Gordon, love him but he would be the odd man out if we got bryant, sure we'd lose scoring from the bench but we could easily switch the 2 & 3 with Lu & bryant with Sefolosha and Nocioni coming off the bench.


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## carlos710

Why bulls fans keep using PJ Brown on every deal ? Do you realize that he has to agree to a S&T for most of the ideas here? What makes you think he would like to go to a rebuilding lakers team (if they trade kobe i guess they will rebuild around their youngs) at his age ?

And even if he wants to go, What makes you think that if you sign him for 8 million for 1 year the lakers will want to pay that money to him when he is going to be pretty much useless for them?


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## rainman

I dont think Kobe is going anywhere, question is who is going there to help him, latest rumor was him talking to Pau in Spain. Pau for Bynum with both teams keeping their picks would probably make sense, not sure if the dollars would line up.....


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## mediocre man

Here is the problem with Kobe. Like every other wing player....including Jordan, he can't win a title by himself. Jordan needed Pippen and to some extent Grant, and Kobe had Shaq. If you guys trade for him then you will most likely have to give up enough talent that he won't be able to win there either. If I were you guys I would stay away fromn Kobe. 

For those of you who don't want Randolph because of his off court issues and him being a "black hole" I woud think you wouldn't want Kobe either. Kobe hasn't taken his team anywhere.


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## BG7

Bulldozer said:


> I'd love to keep Gordon, especially since he can hit the open jumper when Kobe gets double and triple teamed... but he becomes much more valuable to the Lakers if they're trading Kobe, so L.A. has to get that scoring back. If we lose Wallace to acquire Kobe, then that means the frontcourt D takes a hit, and this makes keeping Hinrich better for overall team balance.


I disagree. Kirk Hinrich is the better guy for the Lakers. With Ben Gordon, the Lakers become a fringe playoff team. With Kirk Hinrich instead, they will suck, and get Derrick Rose, Nicolas Batum, or OJ Mayo.

In addition, with us taking Vlad back, they get capspace.

They'd have 

PG-Kirk Hinrich
SG-OJ Mayo
SF-Andres Nocioni
PF-#9 Pick
C- Andrew Bynum 

as their young core. But then they have Odom as well, and capspace. So if they tank next year, get one of those top draft picks, and then sign an impact big (Elton Brand, Jermaine O'neal....) in free agency, they could have a solid 50 win team for LA to cheer for, maybe more depending on how good OJ Mayo or whoever ends up being.


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## Smez86

Mebarak said:


> I disagree. Kirk Hinrich is the better guy for the Lakers. With Ben Gordon, the Lakers become a fringe playoff team. With Kirk Hinrich instead, they will suck, and get Derrick Rose, Nicolas Batum, or OJ Mayo.
> 
> In addition, with us taking Vlad back, they get capspace.
> 
> They'd have
> 
> PG-Kirk Hinrich
> SG-OJ Mayo
> SF-Andres Nocioni
> PF-#9 Pick
> C- Andrew Bynum
> 
> as their young core. But then they have Odom as well, and capspace. So if they tank next year, get one of those top draft picks, and then sign an impact big (Elton Brand, Jermaine O'neal....) in free agency, they could have a solid 50 win team for LA to cheer for, maybe more depending on how good OJ Mayo or whoever ends up being.


I think they would suck either way.

With Hinrich, they would lack the scoring that they gave away in Kobe.

With Gordon, without a defensive guard to make up for his deficiencies, he would be exposed.

In the end, the Lakers would CLEARLY want Gordon's scoring to replace Kobe's. As you say, with Hinrich they would be a fringe playoff team, which would be maybe a tenth pick in the draft if they're lucky. I don't know how they draft Mayo 10th (which him coming to "save" the team in itself is absurd).

You don't make a trade and HOPE it will pan out. You have a plan set, usually with draft picks received, and you go forward from there. Trading for big contracts like Kirks just negates the rebuilding process.


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## BG7

Smez86 said:


> I think they would suck either way.
> 
> With Hinrich, they would lack the scoring that they gave away in Kobe.
> 
> With Gordon, without a defensive guard to make up for his deficiencies, he would be exposed.
> 
> In the end, the Lakers would CLEARLY want Gordon's scoring to replace Kobe's. As you say, with Hinrich they would be a fringe playoff team, which would be maybe a tenth pick in the draft if they're lucky. I don't know how they draft Mayo 10th (which him coming to "save" the team in itself is absurd).
> 
> You don't make a trade and HOPE it will pan out. You have a plan set, usually with draft picks received, and you go forward from there. Trading for big contracts like Kirks just negates the rebuilding process.


I said with Gordon they'd be a fringe playoff team.

With Hinrich, they would suck, and be bad enough to get Mayo.

We aren't just giving them big contracts, we are giving them expiring Khryapa and Brown, and taking back Radmanovic's bad contract, which would give them capspace.


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## theanimal23

As someone mentioned: Tyrus, Ben, PJ, and 9th -- I really want to keep Tyrus, but if its for Kobe, I will pack his bags. 

I personally want the lineup of Kirk-Kobe-Deng-Tyrus-Wallace and then you have to use the MLE to redo the bench. Griff plays some backup 2/3, Malik is the backup 4/5, and if we can somehow keep Noce, then great. Otherwise go for Joe Smith, Matt Caroll/Kapono, etc. We can rebuild the team. I would like to get Turiaf back with Kobe, otherwise the 19th if we are giving up #9. I personally would throw in an additional two first to keep Tyrus.


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## laso

I'd give Gordon, Deng, PJ and scraps, but try to keep #9. Giving up Gordon and Deng hurts but we would still have a good core:
- Hinrich
- Kobe
- Noce
- T Thomas
- Ben Wallace

Off the bench, we would have Thabbo (hopefully he takes it up one notch this year), Krhyapa and #9. If #9 turns into Conley for example, that would be great. That's a good 8-player rotation. Of course, we would need to get a couple of big bodies to give Wallace and Tyrus a break.


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## BG7

laso said:


> I'd give Gordon, Deng, PJ and scraps, but try to keep #9. Giving up Gordon and Deng hurts but we would still have a good core:
> - Hinrich
> - Kobe
> - Noce
> - T Thomas
> - Ben Wallace
> 
> Off the bench, we would have Thabbo (hopefully he takes it up one notch this year), Krhyapa and #9. If #9 turns into Conley for example, that would be great. That's a good 8-player rotation. Of course, we would need to get a couple of big bodies to give Wallace and Tyrus a break.


Gordon + Deng > Kobe

We are not winning a championship with that sorry team.

If we're giving up either Gordon/Deng, I don't want any part of a Kobe Bryant trade.


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## PD

Mebarak said:


> Gordon is the better fit when Scott Skiles inevitably gets fired, and Phil Jackson comes back and puts in the triangle offense.


Buddy, the PJax days are history...Skiles is doing alright. I can't see him going anywhere. And I would not replace Wallace with Kwame Brown...Brown is horrible. Guys who can do the intangibles are better suited to play with guys like Kobe.


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## McBulls

carlos710 said:


> Why bulls fans keep using PJ Brown on every deal ? Do you realize that he has to agree to a S&T for most of the ideas here? What makes you think he would like to go to a rebuilding lakers team (if they trade kobe i guess they will rebuild around their youngs) at his age ?


8 million dollars



> And even if he wants to go, What makes you think that if you sign him for 8 million for 1 year the lakers will want to pay that money to him when he is going to be pretty much useless for them?


I think PJ has another year in him. He looked damn good in his last game -- better than any of the other Bulls. In fact he had a very nice playoff performance in general. 

The Lakers are going to be saving a lot of money if they deal Kobe. When Brown's contract expires in 2008 they will be under the cap even with Gordon and Nocioni (or whoever) on board. They could have enough space to make a play for LBJ or Wade in 2010 if they are patient and careful.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

There is no point in the Lakers taking back Ben Wallace. Kobe won't want to go to a Bull team with no inside presence and the Lakers won't want to pay him when they aren't contending and want to develop Bynum anyways.

I would think the Bulls would keep Hinrich, Deng, and Wallace. What exactly the Lakers would get is hard to say, but I think they obviously have to include Gordon and probably Thomas. But either way a lineup of Hinrich/Kobe/Deng/Wallace is a pretty good foundation.


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## thebizkit69u

I would rather have Hinrich traded over Gordon, atleast with Gordon your pretty sure what your going to get out of him offensively everynight especially if you bring in a guy like Kobe who will take the bulk of the other teams defenses away from Gordon. Hinrich is a nice player but you can replace him with a draft pick.


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## DaBullz

carlos710 said:


> Why bulls fans keep using PJ Brown on every deal ? Do you realize that he has to agree to a S&T for most of the ideas here? What makes you think he would like to go to a rebuilding lakers team (if they trade kobe i guess they will rebuild around their youngs) at his age ?
> 
> And even if he wants to go, What makes you think that if you sign him for 8 million for 1 year the lakers will want to pay that money to him when he is going to be pretty much useless for them?


PJ Brown signed for one year would:
1) Get more money ($8M) than he'd get anywhere else (think he'd disagree and take $1M vet minimum elsewhere?)
2) probably not have to play if he chose not to because...
3) be an expiring contract, valuable in trades due to the CBA

Anyone trading for Brown is really after his expiring contract and the cap relief it represents a year from now.


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## Damian Necronamous

Kobe would at the very least cost Chicago Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas and the 9th pick. The Lakers will want a star player in return, so it's very likely that they demand Gordon/Deng or Gordon/Hinrich.

If they don't get that offer, they'll likely get a better offer elsewhere.


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## McBulls

Damian Necronamous said:


> Kobe would at the very least cost Chicago Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas and the 9th pick. The Lakers will want a star player in return, so it's very likely that they demand Gordon/Deng or Gordon/Hinrich.
> 
> If they don't get that offer, they'll likely get a better offer elsewhere.


You list two star players. But if you get two of our stars you get no pick. 

Hinrich and Deng are pretty much off limits. Beggars can't be choosers.


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## chifaninca

Well, let's look at this from the Lakers standpoint:

You screwed the Pooch on the Shaq situation, but could say that Kobe was the priority and you were going to build around him + Odom.

So, now you trade Kobe, who are the Lakers going to tell the most fickel fans in the world (Sorry Faker fans, it's ture. A good movie premiere trumps a Laker game).

So, You can Market Hinrich as a TEam USA, Strong leader, solid PG.

You can market Ben Gordon as the next A.I. (Truth doesn't matter in LA)

You can Market Deng as one of the leauges best young players that everyt eam wants.

Nocioni is a Gold Medal Winner who plays tough and is a fan favorite type (something LA hasn't had in a long time)

Ben Wallace - 2 time defensive MVP to tutor Young Bynum (though they already have Kareem working with him).

Tyrus Thomas - A defensive and offensive highlight machine with a world of potential.

# 9 pick - Conley, et all could be very good

Krapper - Krap On, Krap off

PF Brown - One more trade deadline to look forward to.

Feel free to add.


----------



## BG7

Damian Necronamous said:


> Kobe would at the very least cost Chicago Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas and the 9th pick. The Lakers will want a star player in return, so it's very likely that they demand Gordon/Deng or Gordon/Hinrich.
> 
> If they don't get that offer, they'll likely get a better offer elsewhere.


Kobe isn't that much better than Deng/Gordon, and I could see both being better than Kobe three years from now. I think Paxson realizes this too, so he just eliminates them from the trade talks.

Kobe has that nice no trade clause. Its not about trying to give Lakers equal value. Its about ripping them off to make ourselves full on contenders. You don't want to give up Gordon or Deng, in addition to anything beyond expiring contracts, and then feel that your not much better than the year before because you gave up too much for a wing player.

The money lineup is:

Kobe Bryant, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Tyrus Thomas, and Ben Wallace. 

Ben Wallace is the obvious leave for the double team since are you really going to want to leave Ben Gordon, a legit #1 option on his own open? Luol Deng and his money bankshot? Tyrus automatic dunk? And if Wallace is getting the ball inside wide open...well, thats a position you have to take. So what if he gets fouled, he will pretty much dunk it, or get fouled...and fouls just put fouls on the opposing bigs. 

That provides one of the greatest clutch lineups of all time as well. Ben Gordon's rookie/sophomore exploits during the clutch were the greatest since MJ. The problem this year was that the opposing team just put all their attention on Ben. With Kobe there, you have to pick your poison, either double whichever one has the ball, or play single coverage on them. 

I'm thinking that this team wins 60+ games, and sweeps the playoffs. 

Keep one of Thabo/Nocioni to be the 6th man, and you have Duhon as your backup point. Use the MLE for the bench big man, and you've got your 8 man rotation right there.


----------



## carlos710

DaBullz said:


> PJ Brown signed for one year would:
> 1) Get more money ($8M) than he'd get anywhere else (think he'd disagree and take $1M vet minimum elsewhere?)
> 2) probably not have to play if he chose not to because...
> 3) be an expiring contract, valuable in trades due to the CBA
> 
> Anyone trading for Brown is really after his expiring contract and the cap relief it represents a year from now.


Who would want to pay him 8 million even if it is for one year ? It doesn't works like that, otherwise any team would sign me for 15 million and 1 year just to have a huge expiring contract.

Not gonna happen.


----------



## DengNabbit

Mebarak said:


> Kobe isn't that much better than Deng/Gordon


Not entire sure what this means

Also, there is something called a free throw, for starters. Kobe gets to shoot quite a few of them.


----------



## laso

Mebarak said:


> Gordon + Deng > Kobe
> 
> We are not winning a championship with that sorry team.
> 
> If we're giving up either Gordon/Deng, I don't want any part of a Kobe Bryant trade.


I disagree: Hinrich/Bryant/Thabo (or Noce) > Hinrich/Gordon/Deng. Kobe is the best scorer in the league, so while loosing both Deng and Gordon is tough, Kobe and Hinrich will score a ton together. And defensively, Hinrich/Bryant/Thabo would be just outstanding. 

The only reservation I have with that trade is that the window of opportunity is much smaller with Kobe then with Deng and Gordon. You basically now have 3-4 years to win and then you have to plan for the after-Kobe (hopefully better than Krause did for the after-Jordan).


----------



## McBulls

carlos710 said:


> Who would want to pay him 8 million even if it is for one year ? It doesn't works like that, otherwise any team would sign me for 15 million and 1 year just to have a huge expiring contract.
> 
> Not gonna happen.


If you are currently being paid $13 million then you could be signed to a two year contract starting at $15 million, with the second year team optional. Of course the team that you were traded to would not pick up the option, but you would still have $15 million in your pocket for rendering your services for another year. 

I don't know how rich you are, but that could be pretty hard to pass up. $8 million here, $8 million there, and pretty soon your're talking real money.


----------



## Ron Cey

You start with Gordon and go from there. And no, sloth, that isn't some crusade to ban Gordon from Chicago. Its only logical.

The Lakers aren't going to trade Kobe to Chicago without demanding the only pure shot creating scorer the Bulls have. 

Now, how much more to add depends on how negotiations go. McBulls, as he advocated at the time of the Gasol scenario, wants to stand pat on a dramatic lowball. And I understand why.

But of course we all know Kobe is actually worth more than that, and there is an opportunity cost associated with considering how much better he could make an eastern conference competitor if they are will to offer a little bit more than us.

Two things I'd really like to see happen if a deal is made:

(a) retain Deng;

(b) retain Thomas. 

Some reasonable combination out of the other assets would be ideal. Of course those two guys, each standing alone, aren't trade killers. But ideally I want to keep both. We have a young core. But those guys could be allstar caliber core players for the next 12 years. I'd like to keep them together in the fold from a "now and later" perspective.

Anyway, its all very interesting.


----------



## BG7

McBulls said:


> If you are currently being paid $13 million then you could be signed to a two year contract starting at $15 million, with the second year team optional. Of course the team that you were traded to would not pick up the option, but you would still have $15 million in your pocket for rendering your services for another year.
> 
> I don't know how rich you are, but that could be pretty hard to pass up. $8 million here, $8 million there, and pretty soon your're talking real money.


Especially when PJ can take his 9 1/2 million, and then get cut, and sign witht he Spurs.


----------



## rwj333

The most I'm willing to trade for Kobe would be a package of Gordon + Deng + Wallace + 08 pick. I'm completely unwilling to trade Tyrus or the #9 (hopefully Hawes or Noah) in any package for Kobe. We don't have an elite big, so we need at least two good ones to pair with Kobe.


----------



## Smez86

Neither Gordon nor Deng will be better than Kobe (although, I'd love to see that happen).

Kobe is the second best player in the world, only behind Duncan right now. That being said, I hope no trade goes down unless it's a lot of nothing for a lot of something like the A.I. deal.


----------



## McBulls

rwj333 said:


> The most I'm willing to trade for Kobe would be a package of Gordon + Deng + Wallace + 08 pick. I'm completely unwilling to trade Tyrus or the #9 (hopefully Hawes or Noah) in any package for Kobe. We don't have an elite big, so we need at least two good ones to pair with Kobe.


I'm sure LA would jump at that offer. At least use PJ as salary filler rather than Wallace. BTW, we should be keep the '08 pick if you're going to trade our two best players to a team that basically has no negotiating leverage

PJ, Gordon and Deng for Bryant is a very, very generous offer. Too generous IMO.


----------



## Aesop

rwj333 said:


> The most I'm willing to trade for Kobe would be a package of Gordon + Deng + Wallace + 08 pick. I'm completely unwilling to trade Tyrus or the #9 (hopefully Hawes or Noah) in any package for Kobe. We don't have an elite big, so we need at least two good ones to pair with Kobe.


You're probably alone among Bulls fans in valuing the #9 pick over Deng.


----------



## BG7

I just don't think Paxson wants to be known as the guy who traded Luol Deng or Ben Gordon for Kobe Bryant...let alone both of them. Its a big mistake waiting to happen.


----------



## Ron Cey

Pax, and every other GM in the league, would clamor to be known as "the guy who traded Gordon (or any other one single player on the Bulls) for Kobe Bryant."

Sloth, Kobe is the best player in the entire NBA and is probably the second best shooting guard in history. 

Put down the pipe.


----------



## Snake

Maybe the Bulls could work out a 3-team trade with Portland (or something with Marion), so LA would get Randolph. He had 23 and 10 least year, they could probably sell it to the fans.

Matching salaries is damn near impossible unless you get sombody to take a big 1-year expiring, or trade Wallace.


----------



## PD

Snake said:


> Maybe the Bulls could work out a 3-team trade with Portland (or something with Marion), so LA would get Randolph. He had 23 and 10 least year, they could probably sell it to the fans.
> 
> Matching salaries is damn near impossible unless you get sombody to take a big 1-year expiring, or trade Wallace.


Highly doubt if the Lakers are willing to be involved with any of the Western teams. Why would they want to help Phoenix or Portland out? As far as Pax not wanting to be known as the one trading Deng or Gordon for Kobe, are you kidding me? He would trade either one of those guys for Kobe in the heart beat. It all depends on what else they want in addition to either one of those guys. He definitely doesn't want to trade both and fillers for Kobe, but just one...it is another story.

As far as PJ Brown not wanting to be resigned and traded, it all depends on how much. If you give him $15M for two years, he would definitely go where you want him to go. It is easier to ask a team to waive or trade you, then asking them to give you $15M.


----------



## Dornado

Just say no.

Guys... the 1990's Bulls were the exception to the rule... the perfect storm came together around the perfect perimeter player...It's not going to happen again. 

To trade so much of our core for one guy (especially a 2-guard) is a mistake. I'm not eager to become the newest version of the Lakers or 76ers (with AI) with one guy keeping us competitive but never seriously contending. Trading for Kobe Bryant would be a mistake unless he came at a ridiculous bargain basement price. Even then, I'm skeptical. I'm not even going to talk about the Colorado incident... but this is the same guy that couldn't co-exist with a top 5 center of all time, and surest ticket you can find to title contention (aside from Tim Duncan) in Shaquille O'Neal. Shaquille O'Neal = wins... and if ANYTHING matters more to Kobe Bryant on the court than winning basketball games I want no part of him. I want no part of that ego maniac... and I'd hate to imagine a Kobe/Skiles feud in our future.


----------



## charlietyra

Dornado said:


> Just say no.
> 
> Guys... the 1990's Bulls were the exception to the rule... the perfect storm came together around the perfect perimeter player...It's not going to happen again.
> 
> To trade so much of our core for one guy (especially a 2-guard) is a mistake. I'm not eager to become the newest version of the Lakers or 76ers (with AI) with one guy keeping us competitive but never seriously contending. Trading for Kobe Bryant would be a mistake unless he came at a ridiculous bargain basement price. Even then, I'm skeptical. I'm not even going to talk about the Colorado incident... but this is the same guy that couldn't co-exist with a top 5 center of all time, and surest ticket you can find to title contention (aside from Tim Duncan) in Shaquille O'Neal. Shaquille O'Neal = wins... and if ANYTHING matters more to Kobe Bryant on the court than winning basketball games I want no part of him. I want no part of that ego maniac... and I'd hate to imagine a Kobe/Skiles feud in our future.


I agree. What's the point of becoming the Lakers of last year?


----------



## T-Time

Well Kobe has ALL the leverage because of that no trade clause so IF the Lakers decide to trade him, its going to be a one sided trade, meaning the Lakers don't get much in return.

If I were Pax I wouldn't get rid of Deng who is what 22? You do everything you can to get rid of Gordon and Wallace. Thats a trade that I would definitely do and could work out for both teams.

From a Bulls standpoint you still keep that number 9 pick that could nab us Jeff Green, Yi, or Crittenton. You get a bonafide superstar that especially in this eastern conference this NBA finals has told us that one superstar can get your there. Well now the Bulls still have Deng and Hinrich that will help Kobe do the scoring. Lets say we get Hawes who will play center. Here is the starting lineup I can imagine.

PG Hinrich
SG Kobe
SF Deng
PF Thomas
C Hawes

That lineup gives you a mix of athletiscm and great defense. Remember we still have Thabo off the bench for defense to spar kobe or kirk minutes. Hawes and Tyrus might not work out for a while but for the time being its the best we could have.

From a Lakers standpoint they keep Bynum who would go great with Ben Wallace and Ben Gordon. Bynum if he improves alot this summer can comand double teams at some points leaving Gordon open for the 3 or a wide open jump shot. Also with a bigger more talented body, Big Ben can do his thing and flurish. This is how I see the Lakers with this trade.

PG Farmar
SG Gordon
SF Odom
PF Bynum
C Wallace

That to me is about the best the Lakers could ask for in a Kobe trade. Like I said, If Bynum improves his game to maybe about a 13 ppg 8 rpg 2 bpg season, the Lakers would be happy with this trade. 

Now back to the Bulls, if the Bulls make a trade to get rid of Duhon for a post scorer we could spend our draft pick on a bigger guard like Crittenton which would be my hope. If not then Hawes is probably the pick in this senario.


----------



## Mateo

I think the Bulls are too loaded to not still be one of, if not *the*, best teams in the East if they were to make this trade.


----------



## quench23

Dude, KOBE BRYANT... You have a chance to get KOBE BRYANT, you do it. If KOBE BRYANT wants to be on your team, you do it. The bulls are a jump shooting team, KOBE BRYANT.


----------



## BG7

Mateo said:


> I think the Bulls are too loaded to not still be one of, if not *the*, best teams in the East if they were to make this trade.


What do you mean the Bulls are too loaded to not be one of the best teams?

Did anyone watch the Bulls last year?

The only two constants throughout the year were Ben Gordon and Luol Deng. Those were the two guys always there, doing their thing.

Kirk Hinrich...he takes a yearly 2 month vacation. He was downright dreadful in the playoffs.

Ben Wallace? This guy was pathetic for a good portion of the year.

Tyrus Thomas, he only had a good March, with sprinkles here and there, as well as a good playoffs.

Thabo Sefolosha...this guy shined a bit in the Miami series, and in a select few games in the season...but beyond that?

PJ Brown...he had a good series against Detroit, thats it. 

#9 pick, it could be a bust.

There is a lot to go wrong with this. 

The only way I want a part of this trade is if both Gordon/Deng are staying put, otherwise I have very little confidence in this team winning the championship post-Kobe trade.

Kobe Bryant is getting so overrated in here. The guy is 29 years old going into next season. He has proven he isn't a ticket to winning by himself, and he has knee problems. I'm not selling the farm for him.


----------



## LamarButler

Mebarak said:


> Kobe isn't that much better than Deng/Gordon, and I could see both being better than Kobe three years from now.


I'm speechless...


----------



## BG7

quench23 said:


> Dude, KOBE BRYANT... You have a chance to get KOBE BRYANT, you do it. If KOBE BRYANT wants to be on your team, you do it. The bulls are a jump shooting team, KOBE BRYANT.


Like you just said....we have a chance to get....KOBE BRYANT.

Not....TIM DUNCAN










Just...KOBE BRYANT....the same KOBE BRYANT...who was the centerpiece of a crappy Lakers team.


----------



## quench23

Mebarak said:


> Like you just said....we have a chance to get....KOBE BRYANT.
> 
> Not....TIM DUNCAN
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just...KOBE BRYANT....the same KOBE BRYANT...who was the centerpiece of a crappy Lakers team.



you just keep telling your self Deng will be on the same level as bryant in 3 years, you just keep telling your self that.

Bryant is THE best basketball talent in this league, its sad you fail to realize this.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

Gordon, Thomas, PJ Brown and a future pick for Kobe. What do Bulls fans think of that?


----------



## King Joseus

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> Gordon, Thomas, PJ Brown and a future pick for Kobe. What do Bulls fans think of that?


I'd do that in a heartbeat.


----------



## rainman

One day he wants out the next he wants help there, either way the guy does get attention.


----------



## quench23

King Joseus said:


> I'd do that in a heartbeat.



Same here, but i'd do everything possible for us to keep Thomas. Kids gonna be a stud, and with Kobe there it would only help him.


----------



## LamarButler

It says on Hoopshype that the Lakers are looking to get Gordon, Deng, Wallace and the #9 draft pick for Kobe.

I know it seems like a lot, but you need a star. This team oriented stuff/playing the "right way" isn't working. No offense, but the Bulls have too many soft or unathletic jumpshooters. Jumpshooting comes and goes but on any given day players will make layups. That's the advantage to Kobe. He drives a lot more than any of those players and gets to the free throw line _more than all of them combined_. And even if you give that much up, the Bulls will be contenders. Kobe will get those inside shots and be that go-to guy. And remember, the Bulls are in the East.

Look

PG- Kirk Hinrich
SG- Kobe Bryant
SF- Andres Nocioni
PF- Tyrus Thomas
C- P.J. Brown

Hinrich, Kobe and Nocioni would probably be the best perimeter defense in the league.

That looks like a great defensive lineup and thats all you need when you have the best offensive player in the game. Not saying the offense would be shabby, because Hinrich can make some plays and hit open shots and give you 15 per game. Nocioni can also give you 15 per game.


----------



## McBulls

quench23 said:


> you just keep telling your self Deng will be on the same level as bryant in 3 years, you just keep telling your self that.
> 
> Bryant is THE best basketball talent in this league, its sad you fail to realize this.


No, Deng won't be a better player than Bryant in 3 years. But he will be in 5 years, and in 10 years he'll still be playing at a high level while Bryant is sitting at home watching his teenage children drive his cars.


----------



## Aesop

What about this trade: Kobe to the Suns for Marion, Barbosa, and Atlanta's 2008 pick. 

This seems to be more than the Bulls would offer and probably would give the Suns their best chance at a championship before Nash goes into decline. I realize the Lakers would prefer to trade Kobe out of the West, but a case can be made to get the best deal possible. Would Kobe agree to this? I don't see why not. He wants to win.


----------



## McBulls

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> Gordon, Thomas, PJ Brown and a future pick for Kobe. What do Bulls fans think of that?


Gordon, Duhon, PJ Brown and the 2008 pick for Kobe would be more like it. We'd kick in a few second round picks just to make the wheels turn on this trade.


----------



## theanimal23

I'd do Gordon, Thomas, PJ, and future pick for Kobe, but I personally would throw in #9 (his rights) instead of Thomas if we can.


----------



## BG7

McBulls said:


> Gordon, Duhon, PJ Brown and the 2008 pick for Kobe would be more like it. We'd kick in a few second round picks just to make the wheels turn on this trade.


Yup. This guy has got it. If your giving up Ben Gordon or Luol Deng in this trade, Lakers should essentially get nothing else of major value in return.


----------



## McBulls

Aesop said:


> What about this trade: Kobe to the Suns for Marion, Barbosa, and Atlanta's 2008 pick.
> 
> This seems to be more than the Bulls would offer and probably would give the Suns their best chance at a championship before Nash goes into decline. I realize the Lakers would prefer to trade Kobe out of the West, but a case can be made to get the best deal possible. Would Kobe agree to this? I don't see why not. He wants to win.


I don't think Phoenix is on Kobe's short list : Clippers, Bulls, Knicks.


----------



## Mateo

LamarButler said:


> It says on Hoopshype that the Lakers are looking to get Gordon, Deng, Wallace and the #9 draft pick for Kobe.
> 
> I know it seems like a lot, but you need a star. This team oriented stuff/playing the "right way" isn't working. No offense, but the Bulls have too many soft or unathletic jumpshooters. Jumpshooting comes and goes but on any given day players will make layups. That's the advantage to Kobe. He drives a lot more than any of those players and gets to the free throw line _more than all of them combined_. And even if you give that much up, the Bulls will be contenders. Kobe will get those inside shots and be that go-to guy. And remember, the Bulls are in the East.
> 
> Look
> 
> PG- Kirk Hinrich
> SG- Kobe Bryant
> SF- Andres Nocioni
> PF- Tyrus Thomas
> C- P.J. Brown
> 
> Hinrich, Kobe and Nocioni would probably be the best perimeter defense in the league.
> 
> That looks like a great defensive lineup and thats all you need when you have the best offensive player in the game. Not saying the offense would be shabby, because Hinrich can make some plays and hit open shots and give you 15 per game. Nocioni can also give you 15 per game.


Exactly. And you'd still have Thabo off the bench. With that roster you'd become the next Pistons at the least, going to 4 or 5 consecutive ECF and going to the finals at least a couple of times (possibly winning one as well).


----------



## Philomath

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> Gordon, Thomas, PJ Brown and a future pick for Kobe. What do Bulls fans think of that?


Done. 

Hinrich is the guy you need to complement and fill in the holes around Kobe, IMO. Gordon is too similar, and if people are envisioning him playing PG full time, we're in trouble. 

Maybe more important than the Hinrich/Kobe combination is the Skiles/Kobe combination. Assuming a decent trade, if Kobe buys in and plays defense for us, we win. If not, Kobe will undermine everything, we will fail, and Skiles will get fired, after which nothing will change and Kobe will then walk away, leaving us in disarray.


----------



## Aesop

McBulls said:


> I don't think Phoenix is on Kobe's short list : Clippers, Bulls, Knicks.


Why wouldn't Kobe want to play for the Suns in this situation?


----------



## McBulls

Aesop said:


> Why wouldn't Kobe want to play for the Suns in this situation?


Maybe he doesn't want to play is such a small town.


----------



## Aesop

McBulls said:


> Maybe he doesn't want to play is such a small town.


As a Bulls fan, I hope this is true. If I put myself into Kobe's head (dangerous, I know), I'd accept it. His desire to win championships should trump his desire for fame in a large market.


----------



## truebluefan

LamarButler said:


> It says on Hoopshype that the Lakers are looking to get Gordon, Deng, Wallace and the #9 draft pick for Kobe.
> 
> I know it seems like a lot, but you need a star. This team oriented stuff/playing the *"right way" isn't working. No offense, but the Bulls have too many soft or unathletic jumpshooters. *Jumpshooting comes and goes but on any given day players will make layups. That's the advantage to Kobe. He drives a lot more than any of those players and gets to the free throw line _more than all of them combined_. And even if you give that much up, the Bulls will be contenders. Kobe will get those inside shots and be that go-to guy. And remember, the Bulls are in the East.
> 
> Look
> 
> PG- Kirk Hinrich
> SG- Kobe Bryant
> SF- Andres Nocioni
> PF- Tyrus Thomas
> C- P.J. Brown
> 
> Hinrich, Kobe and Nocioni would probably be the best perimeter defense in the league.
> 
> That looks like a great defensive lineup and thats all you need when you have the best offensive player in the game. Not saying the offense would be shabby, because Hinrich can make some plays and hit open shots and give you 15 per game. Nocioni can also give you 15 per game.


thats why we need a real low post scorer. Randolph comes to mind. Not working real well? We are very, very young and made it to the playoffs three years in a row and made it to the second round with 2 wins this year. Thats doing pretty well imo. We need more pieces. 
That being said, we need to keep deng and wallace. I dont see why LA would want Wallace anyway. He wouldnt fit in with his contract and all. 

Gordon goes because of his youth and scoring. I would prefer to s&t Nocioni and Brown. I would be relunctant to trade TT because we just traded our two veteran pfs in Noc and Brown! I would also be relunctant to trade the pick. 

My offer since Kobe wants out now is Gordon, Nocioni, Brown, filler if need be and a future #1 or two future #1's.


----------



## truth

LamarButler said:


> Look
> 
> PG- Kirk Hinrich
> SG- Kobe Bryant
> SF- Andres Nocioni
> PF- Tyrus Thomas
> C- P.J. Brown


Kobe would never leave the Lakers to play with a squad like that..PJ Brown at the 5???

Kobe is far better off staying with the Lakers if you are going to gut your squad to get him...


----------



## fl_flash

I still say swing it the other way. Gordon to LA for Bynum and the #19. Make Kobe happy. Give him that extra scorer he desires and it gets rid of Bynum whom Bryant seems to despise anyways. Bryant/Odom and Gordon is a damn fine threesome. We get a big with nice potential and can go BPA at both 9 and 19. Deng gets easily extended this offseason as does Nocioni. Let the Lakers deal with Gordon.

Frankly, unless it's a total steal of a deal, I don't want Bryant and his theartics on the Bulls. I'd prefer him to stay in LA.


----------



## Snake

Paxson isn't going to gut the team. It doesn't have to be a steal it would only have to be a reasonable deal, but he's not going to turn us into the Lakers-east.

I'm just wondering if LA would be interestied in getting Yi. They have to be concerned about marketing and selling tickets, and having the hot new international prospect to go with LA's large asian population would certainly help. You'd have to think it would tempt them.


----------



## BG7

fl_flash said:


> I still say swing it the other way. Gordon to LA for Bynum and the #19. Make Kobe happy. Give him that extra scorer he desires and it gets rid of Bynum whom Bryant seems to despise anyways. Bryant/Odom and Gordon is a damn fine threesome. We get a big with nice potential and can go BPA at both 9 and 19. Deng gets easily extended this offseason as does Nocioni. Let the Lakers deal with Gordon.
> 
> Frankly, unless it's a total steal of a deal, I don't want Bryant and his theartics on the Bulls. I'd prefer him to stay in LA.


I have to ask...what the hell is that? Trading our best player away for a crappy overrated center, and a crappy pick?

Anyhow, if people are onboard with the proposed trade...I can't help but see the Lakers just pointing over and laughing at us.

Then if they do that Odom + Bynum for Jermaine O'neal swap on top of that.

PG-Michael Conley Jr.
SG-Ben Gordon
SF-Luol Deng
PF-Jermaine O'neal
C- Ben Wallace

I could see the entire city of LA just pointing over and laughing at Chicago.


----------



## theanimal23

Ok, thinking about it...Sloth might jump in joy but I would be okay with sending out Hinrich over Gordon. I think Hinrich is the better fit next to Kobe, but look at it this way:

We want to trade for Kobe with giving up the least possible pieces. Kirk's Contract (PPP) allows us to do that. He would not be BYC before July 1st, and his 'salary' would be the average of his rookie deal plus extension. We might be able to keep an extra piece shipping out Kirk and Ben Gordon would get tons of looks due to Kobe. 

Interesting thought.


----------



## kulaz3000

Wallace, one of the core, Noc or Thabo and a future draft pick should suffice. If not they can screw themselves..

I much rather keep our team as it is, and try to win with the players we have.

I would have a sense of distate in my mouth if we won a championship with Kobe leading the Bulls. Im sorry, i hate Kobe and i will continue to whether he becomes a Bull or not.


----------



## BG7

Yeah, Kirk's poison pill could help catalyze a trade before the draft.

We could do a simple:

Bulls Trade:

Kirk Hinrich
Tyrus Thomas
Chris Duhon
Viktar Khryapa
#9 Pick

for

Kobe Bryant

That still leaves us with a core to work with of:

Ben Gordon
Kobe Bryant
Thabo Sefolosha
Luol Deng
Andres Nocioni
Ben Wallace

Thats a solid 6 man core right there. Then you fill out the main rotation through free agency. Bring in solid guys. Ride the 3 man storm that is Gordon/Kobe/Deng to the championship. 

Think about it....

vs....

Detroit...we'd have the 3 best players on the court.
Cleveland...they'd have Lebron...but then we'd have the 2nd Kobe, 3rd, Ben, 4th Luol, 5th Nocioni, 6th Wallace, 7th Sefolosha...on the court.
Toronto...3 best players on the court.
Miami...maybe Wade is the best (or 2nd best), then we have a whole slew of players.
New Jersey....3 best players on court.
Orlando...3 best players on the court.
Washington...3 best players on the court. 
Charlotte...3 best players on the court.
New York...3 best players on the court.

We'd have a talent edge that couldn't be dreamnt of matching. We'd just need to get a solid backup point guard (there has to be an abundance of these, Spurs seem to have a new one every championship that they're paying the minimum for). Use the MLE to get big men.


----------



## BG7

The sweetest feeling would be for us to get to the championship...win it...and then have Stern say...and the most valuable player in this years NBA finals, averaging a shade under 27 points a game, Ben Gordon....then Kobe starts crying....

Or even better would be Gordon/Deng winning cofinals MVP, with Kobe sitting there watching.

Or Kobe can just sit at home, gone fishing, while Bulls win the finals, while Kobe's Lakers didn't make the playoffs.


----------



## quench23

Mebarak said:


> The sweetest feeling would be for us to get to the championship...win it...and then have Stern say...and the most valuable player in this years NBA finals, averaging a shade under 27 points a game, Ben Gordon....then Kobe starts crying....
> 
> Or even better would be Gordon/Deng winning cofinals MVP, with Kobe sitting there watching.
> 
> Or Kobe can just sit at home, gone fishing, while Bulls win the finals, while Kobe's Lakers didn't make the playoffs.




Kobe hater. Dont deny what you dont understand.


----------



## BG7

quench23 said:


> Kobe hater. Dont deny what you dont understand.


I understand that if we trade Deng/Gordon/Wallace/#9, the Lakers become a better team than us.

I also understand that if we trade Ben Gordon/Luol Deng, and any other significant piece, we hardly improve from this trade.


----------



## Snake

If we could get a deal done with Hinrich as the centerpiece I would do it.

The only problem would be that a Gordon-Kobe backcourt would be turnover prone. We'd need a backup PG that doesn't turn the ball over. That was Duhon's role this season. He didn't do much of anything but he did hold on to the ball (for the most part). Unless there's another servicable reserve PG on the market we might have to live through another season of Duhon.


----------



## rwj333

I think the people who are arguing that LA has no leverage are the same people who argued Memphis had no leverage and would be forced to trade Gasol for Nocioni and Duhon. Whoops. 

The Lakers are not going to be made fools out of in any deal. If they can't find a good trade, I am certain they will just sit and wait for the storm to die down. Kobe can't opt out for another two seasons anyway and will have to play. Faking an injury or intentionally playing poorly is beneath him and would ruin his reputation. 



Aesop said:


> You're probably alone among Bulls fans in valuing the #9 pick over Deng.


Probably. But I think Hinrich, Kobe, Nocioni, Thabo, and Duhon is enough perimeter talent to win a championship with. This team still desperately needs big men.


----------



## rwj333

Mebarak said:


> I also understand that if we trade Ben Gordon/Luol Deng, and any other significant piece, we hardly improve from this trade.


I'm not so sure, Sloth. Kobe is a scary threat on offense that will make Kirk and Nocioni better offensive players. It was frustrating watching the Lakers this year-- Kobe would consistently set up Parker, Walton, Odom, and Radmanovic for easy jumpers only to see them brick the shot. The Lakers don't have any shooters as good as Kirk or Noc. 

I also think having Kirk and Noc on the floor with Kobe will make Kobe a more efficient offensive player. Teams doubled or shadowed over to him relentlessly and were never punished for it. With shooters to spread the floor, he will be able to drive and finish even more easily. Our offense would be a lot more diverse with a slasher as good as Kobe. 

With Walton, Odom, Kobe, and not much else, the Lakers were the 7th best offensive team in the league. The Bulls were the 20th best offensive team last year.


----------



## Da Grinch

i think any trade for kobe has to include gordon because he is the team's 2 and that spot would now belong to kobe, and of course because he has good value.

tyrus should stay...as should ben wallace , if they trade wallace i dont think kobe would give his permission ...it would be pointless he'd be in the same position in chicago as in lakerland.

deng should stay because of the same reason.

leaving 

nocioni S&T
PJ S&T
#9
duhon and gordon for kobe and vlad R.

that might be enough....but i'm guessing the bulls would have to thrown in either the 2 2nd rounders they got from NY or another 1st to stay in the sweepstakes.

new laker team 
bynum/Kwame/turiaf
odom/PJ or cook
nocioni/walton
gordon/mo evans
duhon/farmar

and whatever/whoever they can get for the 9th pick.

thats not too bad.

and the bulls with 
wallace 
t.thomas/radman
deng
kobe/thabo
kirk

not much depth as far as who is signed for next year but a great starting 5


the knicks who are the other known team could probably offer a decent package as well.

starting with I'm guessing off the top of my head something like Frye , qrich, mardy collins ,randolph morris and francis.

leaving them with something like 
bynum/brown/r.morris
frye /turiaf/cook
odom/walton/mo evans
Qrich /mardy
francis/farmar

and the 23rd pick .

it leaves the knicks with 

curry/jjames
lee/vlad
balkman /jjeffries
kobe/JC
marbury/nate

which is pretty good too, less in the starting 5 but with more depth.

i wonder who the 3rd team is though.


----------



## kulaz3000

I think that Gordon would do great in an LA enviornment. He has that confidence about him that i think Laker fans can respond to, whereas Deng and Hinrich type would probably bore them to death.

Just fit wise, i think Gordon would encourage and welcome a change to a team such as the Lakers.


----------



## rwj333

I'm not sure we can trade/extend Nocioni anyway, but... Am I the only person who thinks Nocioni is near-worthless to almost any team except the Bulls? He's 28 years old. He's not a great defender. He's pretty good on offense but he's also a bit of a tweener. I like the guy a lot and want to resign him, but I don't see why people keep offering him in trades. Why would the Lakers want another SF/PF? Why would a team, presumably trading a big piece like Kobe or Gasol for several smaller pieces the Bulls have, want to rebuild with someone who is 28? Ignore Zach Randolph's contract for a second and explain why the Blazers, who have a very young core in Roy, Aldridge, and Oden, would want to trade for an older player who will be declining when the rest of the team is peaking?


----------



## truebluefan

rwj333 said:


> I'm not sure we can trade/extend Nocioni anyway, but... Am I the only person who thinks Nocioni is near-worthless to almost any team except the Bulls? He's 28 years old. He's not a great defender. He's pretty good on offense but he's also a bit of a tweener. I like the guy a lot and want to resign him, but I don't see why people keep offering him in trades. Why would the Lakers want another SF/PF? Why would a team, presumably trading a big piece like Kobe or Gasol for several smaller pieces the Bulls have, want to rebuild with someone who is 28? Ignore Zach Randolph's contract for a second and explain why the Blazers, who have a very young core in Roy, Aldridge, and Oden, would want to trade for an older player who will be declining when the rest of the team is peaking?


i disagree. Noc is pretty good on defense.


----------



## T.Shock

If I'm John Paxson, I look at previous superstar trades...

IVERSON DEAL
Philly gets: Andre Miller, Joe Smith, two 2007 1st Round picks
Denver gets: Iverson, filler

MCGRADY DEAL
Orlando gets: Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley, Kelvin Cato
Houston gets: McGrady, Howard, Lue, Reece Gaines

SHAQ DEAL
Lakers get: Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Brian Grant, 1st Round Pick
Miami gets: Shaq

Essentially, the going rate for a superstar player is:

1.Borderline All-Star
2.Quality 3rd Option
3.Cap Relief
4.1st Round Pick

So in my mind...

Kirk Hinrich(Andre Miller, Cuttino Mobley, Caron Butler)
Ben Gordon(poor Sixers fans, Steve Francis, Lamar Odom)
P.J. Brown(S&T)(Joe Smith, Kelvin Cato, Brian Grant)
2008 1st Round Pick

is the appropiate package.


----------



## Amareca

Lakersfans on lakersground.net think they will get Gordon, Deng, Wallace and #9 for Kobe.


----------



## truebluefan

rwj333 said:


> I think the people who are arguing that LA has no leverage are the same people who argued Memphis had no leverage and would be forced to trade Gasol for Nocioni and Duhon. Whoops.
> 
> The Lakers are not going to be made fools out of in any deal. If they can't find a good trade, I am certain they will just sit and wait for the storm to die down. Kobe can't opt out for another two seasons anyway and will have to play. Faking an injury or intentionally playing poorly is beneath him and would ruin his reputation.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably. But I think Hinrich, Kobe, Nocioni, Thabo, and Duhon is enough perimeter talent to win a championship with. This team still desperately needs big men.


memphis is in rebuilidng and using gasol as a center piece and they had nothing t0 lose by keeping Gasol. How could they get any worse then they were already? 

With kobe, kidd and now O'neal were turned down in trades. That is why he is mad. The lakers could get worse. Kobe not happy and giving his all. They seem to be going backwards and it will get worse.


----------



## truebluefan

Amareca said:


> Lakersfans on lakersground.net think they will get Gordon, Deng, Wallace and #9 for Kobe.


No way! Lakers would be better than us. Pax would never do that. 

And why would Kobe come to a team that was worse than the one he left?


----------



## spongyfungy

I shudder everytime I think of a gordon/kobe backcourt. That's a team with no direction. If Gordon had some PG skills or any sign to become an average one, I'd trade Kirk in a heartbeat. Tony Parker is not a great point guard but the guy penetrates and scores so much downlow. Ben can't do that either. It just doesn't make sense to have both Ben and Kobe on the same team unless Ben rides the pine all season.

I totally agree that Gordon would flourish in LA.


----------



## truebluefan

T.Shock said:


> If I'm John Paxson, I look at previous superstar trades...
> 
> IVERSON DEAL
> Philly gets: Andre Miller, Joe Smith, two 2007 1st Round picks
> Denver gets: Iverson, filler
> 
> MCGRADY DEAL
> Orlando gets: Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley, Kelvin Cato
> Houston gets: McGrady, Howard, Lue, Reece Gaines
> 
> SHAQ DEAL
> Lakers get: Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Brian Grant, 1st Round Pick
> Miami gets: Shaq
> 
> Essentially, the going rate for a superstar player is:
> 
> 1.Borderline All-Star
> 2.Quality 3rd Option
> 3.Cap Relief
> 4.1st Round Pick
> 
> So in my mind...
> 
> Kirk Hinrich(Andre Miller, Cuttino Mobley, Caron Butler)
> Ben Gordon(poor Sixers fans, Steve Francis, Lamar Odom)
> P.J. Brown(S&T)(Joe Smith, Kelvin Cato, Brian Grant)
> 2008 1st Round Pick
> 
> is the appropiate package.


good point. Your trade imo is as good as they will get from us. I would be surprised if Hinrich was going to be offered at all. More like Nocioni, from our side of things.


----------



## BG7

T.Shock said:


> If I'm John Paxson, I look at previous superstar trades...
> 
> IVERSON DEAL
> Philly gets: Andre Miller, Joe Smith, two 2007 1st Round picks
> Denver gets: Iverson, filler
> 
> MCGRADY DEAL
> Orlando gets: Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley, Kelvin Cato
> Houston gets: McGrady, Howard, Lue, Reece Gaines
> 
> SHAQ DEAL
> Lakers get: Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Brian Grant, 1st Round Pick
> Miami gets: Shaq
> 
> Essentially, the going rate for a superstar player is:
> 
> 1.Borderline All-Star
> 2.Quality 3rd Option
> 3.Cap Relief
> 4.1st Round Pick
> 
> So in my mind...
> 
> Kirk Hinrich(Andre Miller, Cuttino Mobley, Caron Butler)
> Ben Gordon(poor Sixers fans, Steve Francis, Lamar Odom)
> P.J. Brown(S&T)(Joe Smith, Kelvin Cato, Brian Grant)
> 2008 1st Round Pick
> 
> is the appropiate package.


If thats the case, I'll just take my chances with the Gordon and Hinrich backcourt.


----------



## BG7

spongyfungy said:


> I shudder everytime I think of a gordon/kobe backcourt. That's a team with no direction. If Gordon had some PG skills or any sign to become an average one, I'd trade Kirk in a heartbeat. Tony Parker is not a great point guard but the guy penetrates and scores so much downlow. Ben can't do that either. It just doesn't make sense to have both Ben and Kobe on the same team unless Ben rides the pine all season.
> 
> I totally agree that Gordon would flourish in LA.


Gordon was playing the point guard for most of the Miami series, and dismantled the team.

On the other side of the fence, Hinrich was playing the point guard for most of the Detroit series, and we got dismantled.

Shouldn't the guy played point guard in the series we dismantled the other team get more praise than the guy who played point guard in the series we got dismantled in?


----------



## Snake

T.Shock said:


> If I'm John Paxson, I look at previous superstar trades...
> 
> IVERSON DEAL
> Philly gets: Andre Miller, Joe Smith, two 2007 1st Round picks
> Denver gets: Iverson, filler
> 
> MCGRADY DEAL
> Orlando gets: Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley, Kelvin Cato
> Houston gets: McGrady, Howard, Lue, Reece Gaines
> 
> SHAQ DEAL
> Lakers get: Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Brian Grant, 1st Round Pick
> Miami gets: Shaq
> 
> Essentially, the going rate for a superstar player is:
> 
> 1.Borderline All-Star
> 2.Quality 3rd Option
> 3.Cap Relief
> 4.1st Round Pick
> 
> So in my mind...
> 
> Kirk Hinrich(Andre Miller, Cuttino Mobley, Caron Butler)
> Ben Gordon(poor Sixers fans, Steve Francis, Lamar Odom)
> P.J. Brown(S&T)(Joe Smith, Kelvin Cato, Brian Grant)
> 2008 1st Round Pick
> 
> is the appropiate package.


Anytime somebody on the Lakers so much as thinks about a Gordon, Deng, Wallace, and #9 for Kobe trade Pax needs to remind them of those trades.

Hmm... the only quality pieces we'd be giving up there would be Hinrich and Gordon. We'd need a PG so maybe draft Conely?

What sucks is that we can't get the trade done until after the draft because we need to S/T somebody. The problem is that the trade would have to be worked out before the draft so we could pick somebody to replace whoever is going out, or if the pick is being traded we'd have to know who they want to pick. It's a sticking point...


----------



## Snake

Mebarak said:


> Gordon was playing the point guard for most of the Miami series, and dismantled the team.
> 
> On the other side of the fence, Hinrich was playing the point guard for most of the Detroit series, and we got dismantled.
> 
> Shouldn't the guy played point guard in the series we dismantled the other team get more praise than the guy who played point guard in the series we got dismantled in?


Even you would have to admit that Gordon is very turnover prone.


----------



## BG7

So, 1 or 2 turnovers a game more per game with Gordon at the point, than would be had if Hinrich was there isn't going to kill this team. The positives would far outweigh the minor negatives that are being magnified and put on a freaking pedestal.


----------



## Snake

Mebarak said:


> So, 1 or 2 turnovers a game more per game with Gordon at the point, than would be had if Hinrich was there isn't going to kill this team. The positives would far outweigh the minor negatives that are being magnified and put on a freaking pedestal.


1 or 2 turnovers per game more and 1 or 2 assists less per game will hurt


----------



## T.Shock

Snake said:


> Anytime somebody on the Lakers so much as thinks about a Gordon, Deng, Wallace, and #9 for Kobe trade Pax needs to remind them of those trades.
> 
> Hmm... the only quality pieces we'd be giving up there would be Hinrich and Gordon. We'd need a PG so maybe draft Conely?
> 
> What sucks is that we can't get the trade done until after the draft because we need to S/T somebody. The problem is that the trade would have to be worked out before the draft so we could pick somebody to replace whoever is going out, or if the pick is being traded we'd have to know who they want to pick. It's a sticking point...


Hypothetically, the deal could be agreed upon before the draft, and the two teams may have to wait until July 1st to actually finish the deal, but they could have an agreement, and then the Bulls could take Conley at 9.

So let's say we do this...

*Bulls send:*
Kirk Hinrich(5.5 million)
Ben Gordon(4.9 million)
P.J. Brown(7.0 million)
2008 1st Round Pick
Total: 17.4 million

*Bulls receive:*
Kobe Bryant(19.5 million)
Total: 19.5 million

*Lakers send:*
Kobe Bryant(19.5 million)
Total: 19.5 million

*Lakers receive:*
Kirk Hinrich(11.0 million)
Ben Gordon(4.9 million)
P.J. Brown(7.0 million)
2008 1st Round Pick
Total: 22.9 million

BYC compliant. 

Bulls draft Conley at #9. 

PG-Duhon
SG-Kobe
SF-Deng
PF-Tyrus
C-Big Ben

Conley/Thabo/Nocioni/Marc Jackson

That is a freakin' solid 9-man rotation. Great defensively. Great on the boards. Deep. Kobe will be in the high 20s. Deng will be in the low 20s. I'd expect Duhon and Tyrus to average about 12-13 a game. Conley and Nocioni provide offense off the bench. Thabo gives us a big swingman to back-up Kobe and Deng. Jackson gives us a legit back-up big man in the P.J. Brown mold.


----------



## Snake

T.Shock said:


> Hypothetically, the deal could be agreed upon before the draft, and the two teams may have to wait until July 1st to actually finish the deal, but they could have an agreement, and then the Bulls could take Conley at 9.
> 
> So let's say we do this...
> 
> *Bulls send:*
> Kirk Hinrich(5.5 million)
> Ben Gordon(4.9 million)
> P.J. Brown(7.0 million)
> 2008 1st Round Pick
> Total: 17.4 million
> 
> *Bulls receive:*
> Kobe Bryant(19.5 million)
> Total: 19.5 million
> 
> *Lakers send:*
> Kobe Bryant(19.5 million)
> Total: 19.5 million
> 
> *Lakers receive:*
> Kirk Hinrich(11.0 million)
> Ben Gordon(4.9 million)
> P.J. Brown(7.0 million)
> 2008 1st Round Pick
> Total: 22.9 million
> 
> BYC compliant.
> 
> Bulls draft Conley at #9.
> 
> PG-Duhon
> SG-Kobe
> SF-Deng
> PF-Tyrus
> C-Big Ben
> 
> Conley/Thabo/Nocioni/Marc Jackson
> 
> That is a freakin' solid 9-man rotation. Great defensively. Great on the boards. Deep. Kobe will be in the high 20s. Deng will be in the low 20s. I'd expect Duhon and Tyrus to average about 12-13 a game. Conley and Nocioni provide offense off the bench. Thabo gives us a big swingman to back-up Kobe and Deng. Jackson gives us a legit back-up big man in the P.J. Brown mold.


That would be alright. I wonder if we could trade Du for someone a little better.

Conely apperently had a great workout in Memphis
http://cmimemphis.com/grizblog/node/162



> Tony Barone Sr. conducted the workout and called Conley “the quintessential point guard,” saying that he has every skill you’d want from a player at that position and would be ready to step in and play right away.
> 
> The one specific comment Barone made about Conley’s game was his ability to hit runners and floaters in the lane with either hand. Barone says that Conley makes these shots as well as anybody in basketball, comparing him to Tony Parker and Allen Iverson in that regard.


His jumper sucks but if he can hit floaters he'd be useful right away.


----------



## Pain5155

T.Shock said:


> Hypothetically, the deal could be agreed upon before the draft, and the two teams may have to wait until July 1st to actually finish the deal, but they could have an agreement, and then the Bulls could take Conley at 9.
> 
> So let's say we do this...
> 
> *Bulls send:*
> Kirk Hinrich(5.5 million)
> Ben Gordon(4.9 million)
> P.J. Brown(7.0 million)
> 2008 1st Round Pick
> Total: 17.4 million
> 
> *Bulls receive:*
> Kobe Bryant(19.5 million)
> Total: 19.5 million
> 
> *Lakers send:*
> Kobe Bryant(19.5 million)
> Total: 19.5 million
> 
> *Lakers receive:*
> Kirk Hinrich(11.0 million)
> Ben Gordon(4.9 million)
> P.J. Brown(7.0 million)
> 2008 1st Round Pick
> Total: 22.9 million
> 
> BYC compliant.
> 
> Bulls draft Conley at #9.
> 
> PG-Duhon
> SG-Kobe
> SF-Deng
> PF-Tyrus
> C-Big Ben
> 
> Conley/Thabo/Nocioni/Marc Jackson
> 
> That is a freakin' solid 9-man rotation. Great defensively. Great on the boards. Deep. Kobe will be in the high 20s. Deng will be in the low 20s. I'd expect Duhon and Tyrus to average about 12-13 a game. Conley and Nocioni provide offense off the bench. Thabo gives us a big swingman to back-up Kobe and Deng. Jackson gives us a legit back-up big man in the P.J. Brown mold.


lakers would want that 2007 first round pick.


----------



## step

> lakers would want that 2007 first round pick.


I'm sure they'd want it, doesn't mean they'll get it.


----------



## rwj333

T. Shock, that's a fine trade. But I think I'd rather trade Deng than Hinrich because Hinrich-Kobe-Nocioni is slightly more attractive than Duhon-Kobe-Deng. I don't like having a weak link like Duhon at PG. Also, Thabo will hopefully be able to play SG or SF.


----------



## 7RINGS?

I say we trade Paxson for Kobe straight up because he will get the right guys that the Lakers need on te team to bring them future championships for many years to come!!! I am a super mad genius!!!!!:lol:


----------



## kulaz3000

Kobe may be a great player, but his just going to seperate the chemistry on our team by being the spoilt brat that he is. He shouldn't be given the opportunity to tarnish the rich history of the Bulls franchise. I don't want a player who gives up on their team just because they arn't playing well.


----------



## BG7

Snake said:


> 1 or 2 turnovers per game more and 1 or 2 assists less per game will hurt


You do realize that Kirk Hinrich isn't a creator at the point guard position. Almost all of his assists come off passing to PJ Brown off the pick and roll, passing to Luol Deng in the corner off a set play, or passing to Ben Gordon off a curl. 

Ben Gordon has shown an ability to create more so than any guard on this team. He sometimes makes a bad decision, and tries to force a pass, but once he gets acclimated to the position, the offensive flow will be much better with Ben than Kirk.


----------



## kulaz3000

Mebarak said:


> You do realize that Kirk Hinrich isn't a creator at the point guard position. Almost all of his assists come off passing to PJ Brown off the pick and roll, passing to Luol Deng in the corner off a set play, or passing to Ben Gordon off a curl.
> 
> Ben Gordon has shown an ability to create more so than any guard on this team. He sometimes makes a bad decision, and tries to force a pass, but once he gets acclimated to the position, the offensive flow will be much better with Ben than Kirk.


Im not sure how else a player is meant to get an assist if they don't pass the ball to playeres that can shoot and make the shot? What do you want and expect him to do, hold the players hand and direct him to the basketball and pass the ball off to him right at the basket?

Plus, its not even all about Gordons passing ability of lack of it, its more to do with his court awareness. Through his career over and over and over again, i've seen him try to pass the ball across the court to get it intercepted numerous times. He has the ability to make plays, i do agree. But he just doesn't have a good court sense of reading the offense or defense situations. His quite frankly terrible at times.

Also the main reason why Kirk or noone else gets high assist totals isn't because they are bad passers or arn't passing enough, its because our offense is designed to give everyone the ball and everyone an opportunity to touch the ball of the offense. So though Gordon or Hinrich may bring up the ball, everyone will often end up touching the ball on the offense or atleast cutting and turning to obtain the ball. Our offensive scheme is very much an equal opportunity scheme. Unlike other great point guards with great assist totals who dominate the ball such as Kidd, Stockon or Nash. They pretty much have the ball throughout the whole offense untill they decide to give it up...


----------



## mgolding

Bulls Trade: Re-signed PJ Brown, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng and perhaps future draft consideratoins, next years no 1 etc

Lakers Trade: Kobe Bryant

Lakers get good value in Gordon and Deng and Buls get a superstar.

My concern would be the Lakers rejecting this as opposed to the bulls doing so.

Bulls Line-up

Wallace / Mid Level Guy
Tyrus / 9th Pick
Nocioni / Griffin
Bryant / Thabo
Hinrich / Duhon

The 9th Pick could even be angled towards one of the top small forwards coming out such as the best left of Brewer, Green and Wright and have Noc as a back-up 4.

It think some people here are too precious about our players. I like the way we play and really like Deng and Gordon but Bryant surpasses them by a good way in my opinion. A Hinrich/Bryant backcourt would tear apart any other backcourt in the NBA and a Wallace/Thomas/Nocioni frontcourt would get rebounds, play D and provide a lot of energy. There is no way any team in the east stands a chance against this team in a 7 game series.

I would love to see Kobe playing (in a Bulls uniform) with a good point guard and i think Hinrich would work really well with him. Defensively and Offensively as good as any backcourt in the NBA.

Apart from the Pistons in 2004 no team has one a championship without a superstar since I have been alive. You can not underestimate the value of having one of the top 5 players in the league.


----------



## BG7

kulaz3000 said:


> Im not sure how else a player is meant to get an assist if they don't pass the ball to playeres that can shoot and make the shot? What do you want and expect him to do, hold the players hand and direct him to the basketball and pass the ball off to him right at the basket?
> 
> Plus, its not even all about Gordons passing ability of lack of it, its more to do with his court awareness. Through his career over and over and over again, i've seen him try to pass the ball across the court to get it intercepted numerous times. He has the ability to make plays, i do agree. But he just doesn't have a good court sense of reading the offense or defense situations. His quite frankly terrible at times.
> 
> Also the main reason why Kirk or noone else gets high assist totals isn't because they are bad passers or arn't passing enough, its because our offense is designed to give everyone the ball and everyone an opportunity to touch the ball of the offense. So though Gordon or Hinrich may bring up the ball, everyone will often end up touching the ball on the offense or atleast cutting and turning to obtain the ball. Our offensive scheme is very much an equal opportunity scheme. Unlike other great point guards with great assist totals who dominate the ball such as Kidd, Stockon or Nash. They pretty much have the ball throughout the whole offense untill they decide to give it up...


Did you watch our team much? 

Equal opportunity offense? What...where do you think the complaint of Hinrich overdribbling comes from? We don't have that offense. We have an offense where all too often, Gordon and Deng are stuck in the corners pinned there by a larger player, while Hinrich dribbles around the court. What separates Jason Kidd and Steve Nash is the ability to thread through the little gaps to find players from great opportunities. 

The problem with our offense in the Detroit series when we were struggling was because of our crappy offensive scheme. The Pistons pinned Gordon in the corner with a bigger player. This left the ball in Kirk Hinrich, PJ Brown, or Ben Wallace's hands more than Ben Gordon. Good things happened when the ball was in Ben's hands. It took Skiles too damn long to have Ben bring the ball up, or have Ben receive the ball somewhere other than the corner. Scott Skiles has to adjust that crappy corner run scheme that he does. Other teams have figured it out.


----------



## kulaz3000

mgolding said:


> Bulls Trade: Re-signed PJ Brown, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng and perhaps future draft consideratoins, next years no 1 etc
> 
> Lakers Trade: Kobe Bryant
> 
> Lakers get good value in Gordon and Deng and Buls get a superstar.
> 
> My concern would be the Lakers rejecting this as opposed to the bulls doing so.
> 
> Bulls Line-up
> 
> Wallace / Mid Level Guy
> Tyrus / 9th Pick
> Nocioni / Griffin
> Bryant / Thabo
> Hinrich / Duhon
> 
> The 9th Pick could even be angled towards one of the top small forwards coming out such as the best left of Brewer, Green and Wright and have Noc as a back-up 4.
> 
> It think some people here are too precious about our players. I like the way we play and really like Deng and Gordon but Bryant surpasses them by a good way in my opinion. A Hinrich/Bryant backcourt would tear apart any other backcourt in the NBA and a Wallace/Thomas/Nocioni frontcourt would get rebounds, play D and provide a lot of energy. There is no way any team in the east stands a chance against this team in a 7 game series.
> 
> I would love to see Kobe playing (in a Bulls uniform) with a good point guard and i think Hinrich would work really well with him. Defensively and Offensively as good as any backcourt in the NBA.
> 
> Apart from the Pistons in 2004 no team has one a championship without a superstar since I have been alive. You can not underestimate the value of having one of the top 5 players in the league.


I could do with that trade. You could also have stated that Thabo can easily play the small forward position along with Noc, and quite honestly Thabo would probably play better as a small forward anyhow. 

I would much rather trade only one of our core players, but i think Gordon and Deng without giving up our draft choice would be fair. The only problem with that is i don't think the salaries will match up to make it work. People keep saying that we should/can sign Brown to a 7 million plus contract are wrong, it will seem ridiculous to sign a player such as him to such a huge contract and it will be found skeptical by the league for obvious reasons.


----------



## mgolding

T.Shock is angling at something similar with Hinrich instead of Deng. I just dont think the Lakers would take on two point guard sized players. Deng is our most valuable player, and when you're talking about trading Kobe, they'yy want our most valuable player.

In addition to that I would not be drafting a 19 year old point guard (conley) with a very questionable shooting ability to play beside Kobe. Kirks shooting, D and experience would be a much better pairing as far as contending for championships now goes.

Championships get won by superstars. The Bulls dont have one.


----------



## kulaz3000

Mebarak said:


> Did you watch our team much?
> 
> Equal opportunity offense? What...where do you think the complaint of Hinrich overdribbling comes from? We don't have that offense. We have an offense where all too often, Gordon and Deng are stuck in the corners pinned there by a larger player, while Hinrich dribbles around the court. What separates Jason Kidd and Steve Nash is the ability to thread through the little gaps to find players from great opportunities.
> 
> The problem with our offense in the Detroit series when we were struggling was because of our crappy offensive scheme. The Pistons pinned Gordon in the corner with a bigger player. This left the ball in Kirk Hinrich, PJ Brown, or Ben Wallace's hands more than Ben Gordon. Good things happened when the ball was in Ben's hands. It took Skiles too damn long to have Ben bring the ball up, or have Ben receive the ball somewhere other than the corner. Scott Skiles has to adjust that crappy corner run scheme that he does. Other teams have figured it out.


Of course when we are playing bad our offense obviously bogs down to a stand still everyone has witness that. But when our offense is running smoothly everyone touches the ball on our offensive scheme. 

You shouldn't question whether people watch the actual basketball games and make judgements, espically when you only watch the games through your Gordon goggles.


----------



## BG7

Also, fwiw, in games where Gordon has had more than 4 turnovers (more than his season average) we are 20-11. (.645). In these games he averaged 23 PPG 4.3 APG.

In the playoffs when he averaged more than 4 turnovers, Bulls were 3-0, with him averaging 26 PPG 6 APG.

The turnovers really aren't a big deal...


----------



## koberules24

Jesus............


----------



## Dornado

Mebarak said:


> Did you watch our team much?
> 
> Equal opportunity offense? What...where do you think the complaint of Hinrich overdribbling comes from? We don't have that offense. We have an offense where all too often, Gordon and Deng are stuck in the corners pinned there by a larger player, while Hinrich dribbles around the court. What separates Jason Kidd and Steve Nash is the ability to thread through the little gaps to find players from great opportunities.
> 
> The problem with our offense in the Detroit series when we were struggling was because of our crappy offensive scheme. The Pistons pinned Gordon in the corner with a bigger player. This left the ball in Kirk Hinrich, PJ Brown, or Ben Wallace's hands more than Ben Gordon. Good things happened when the ball was in Ben's hands. It took Skiles too damn long to have Ben bring the ball up, or have Ben receive the ball somewhere other than the corner. Scott Skiles has to adjust that crappy corner run scheme that he does. Other teams have figured it out.



I try to ignore how biased your posts are... but there are just so many of them.

Hinrich ends up with the ball in his hands when things break down on offense... and yeah, sometimes that looks bad. But I remember watching those games down the stretch and thinking "what happened to Ben Gordon?"... which quickly turned to me yelling at the TV screen for him to actually start moving without the ball. How do you "pin" someone in the corner in a basketball game? Seems to me players pin themselves in corners... though I guess you acknowledge that a bit with your shot at Skiles. 

Just because you love Ben Gordon doesn't mean you have to be irrational about Kirk Hinrich to prove your points. Earlier you said he took "two months" off this year? Where did you even come up with that? He is a quality PG... and Ben Gordon is a quality SG. They both have strenghts. They both need to penetrate more. 

Having Ben Gordon play PG is the kind of thing you do when you don't have other options... not something you build a team around. I think he's servicable... sometimes he shows flashes of court vision, but he simply doesn't have the handle, and he doesn't play like a PG. Ben Gordon has great moves to dribble and create space for himself to shoot... I've yet to see him use that to his advantage to create for other players, and that's what point guards do.


----------



## all_aus

if we include wallace in a deal we have no center?? would every1 what one of kwamee or mihm? or wld we find an alternative in another deal or trade.

or could we even pull bynum??


----------



## mgolding

all_aus said:


> if we include wallace in a deal we have no center?? would every1 what one of kwamee or mihm? or wld we find an alternative in another deal or trade.
> 
> or could we even pull bynum??


The lakers wouldnt want Wallaces contract and we need Wallace to contend. Wallace wont be part of any deal. If the lakers trade kobe they want good value guys like Deng and Gordon.

They're probably going to go young if they're trading with the Bulls so I doubt Bynum would be at all on the cards.


----------



## Snake

kulaz3000 said:


> Of course when we are playing bad our offense obviously bogs down to a stand still everyone has witness that. But when our offense is running smoothly everyone touches the ball on our offensive scheme.
> 
> You shouldn't question whether people watch the actual basketball games and make judgements, espically when you only watch the games through your *Gordon goggles*.


Gordon goggles? You mean these.:yay:


----------



## BullsAttitude

Dornado said:


> I try to ignore how biased your posts are... but there are just so many of them.
> 
> Hinrich ends up with the ball in his hands when things break down on offense... and yeah, sometimes that looks bad. But I remember watching those games down the stretch and thinking "what happened to Ben Gordon?"... which quickly turned to me yelling at the TV screen for him to actually start moving without the ball. How do you "pin" someone in the corner in a basketball game? Seems to me players pin themselves in corners... though I guess you acknowledge that a bit with your shot at Skiles.
> 
> Just because you love Ben Gordon doesn't mean you have to be irrational about Kirk Hinrich to prove your points. Earlier you said he took "two months" off this year? Where did you even come up with that? He is a quality PG... and Ben Gordon is a quality SG. They both have strenghts. They both need to penetrate more.
> 
> Having Ben Gordon play PG is the kind of thing you do when you don't have other options... not something you build a team around. I think he's servicable... sometimes he shows flashes of court vision, but he simply doesn't have the handle, and he doesn't play like a PG. Ben Gordon has great moves to dribble and create space for himself to shoot... I've yet to see him use that to his advantage to create for other players, and that's what point guards do.





:clap: :clap2:


----------



## Snake

Dornado said:


> I try to ignore how biased your posts are... but there are just so many of them.
> 
> Hinrich ends up with the ball in his hands when things break down on offense... and yeah, sometimes that looks bad. But I remember watching those games down the stretch and thinking "what happened to Ben Gordon?"... which quickly turned to me yelling at the TV screen for him to actually start moving without the ball. How do you "pin" someone in the corner in a basketball game? Seems to me players pin themselves in corners... though I guess you acknowledge that a bit with your shot at Skiles.
> 
> Just because you love Ben Gordon doesn't mean you have to be irrational about Kirk Hinrich to prove your points. Earlier you said he took "two months" off this year? Where did you even come up with that? He is a quality PG... and Ben Gordon is a quality SG. They both have strenghts. They both need to penetrate more.
> 
> Having Ben Gordon play PG is the kind of thing you do when you don't have other options... not something you build a team around. I think he's servicable... sometimes he shows flashes of court vision, but he simply doesn't have the handle, and he doesn't play like a PG. Ben Gordon has great moves to dribble and create space for himself to shoot... I've yet to see him use that to his advantage to create for other players, and that's what point guards do.


Yes!! Completely agree.:cheers:


----------



## chifaninca

SNAKE - LOL


As for who, what, when.............

Paxson has shown he has the gumption to stand pat, so I don't think we have to totally gut the team. Plus, Kobe isn't going to duplicate the problems he has in LA. For those who didn't see more than 10 Lakers game, the team was and is ONLY KOBE> The guy carried an entire team for an entire season as far as he could. I don't fault him at all. He's doing nothing different than everyone on the boards, except he has clout behind him.

He wants the organization he's playing for to put together a contending team.

I think we can give up one of:

Hinrich / Gordon (I don't care who, they'll both be better playing next to Kobe)

I can see Thomas and/or Sefalosha inlcuded for them to rebuild.

And here's the hardest part - You need to match salaries - so do you send Wallace, then it's:

Hinrich/Gordon + Tyrus Thomas (#2/4 pick)+ Sefalosha (#16 pick) + Wallace + Future #1.

That is a entire team that could beat the current Lakers lineup without Kobe.

Leaves us with 

PG - Hinrich/Gordon, Duhon
SG - Kobe, Griffin
SF - Deng, Krapper
PF - Nocioni, drafted PF, 
C - Signed FA (Mihm), 

We become very thin in the frontcourt - errr, wait, we already are.

I feel our current team + (whatever 9 nets us) can get us to the ECF for the next few years. I'm not confident about being able to win a champiionship with the current line-up.

With my proposed trade line up, some key FA signings will be needed to shore up the frontcourt.

I do think we are capable of winning the ECF with that new line-up, especially since Kobe + Deng + (Gordon/Hinrich) can step it up big-time. I'm not sure if we could win a champioinship with that line-up either, but I would honestly give it more of a chance.

Everyone told me about Wallace bringing unmeasurable tnagibles. Well, I think Kobe does that even bigger. 

Wallace isn't such a big issue to me as he is clearly not nearly as effective. 

Play hardball Paxson.

You gotta keep atleast three of the core (Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, Tyrus, Thabo #9 pick). If only we had LaMarcus, then you'd have so much more value than Tyrus.


PS - The "Lakers ahve to get back our MV" argument isn't true. Wade was the Heat's best player and the Lakers didn't get him when they traded Shaq. Nuggets didn't give up Carmelo.......etc.

So, my foundation for a trade team is:

PG - 
SG - Kobe
SF - Deng
PF
C

Great start, give me atleast one more star caliber player not named Wallace, and we have that triumverate required to contend for 5 years.


----------



## Sith

Bulls can not give up Wallace in this trade for Kobe. If we trade both gordon and deng, that means we are defintely in win-now mode with kobe being 29 when the season starts. if we give up wallace too along with gordon/deng, we would be left with too little to provide kobe enough helps. I think a fair trade for both teams(slight toward bulls favor) would be Deng+Gordon as the main pieces and resigned PJ brown for salary purpose. Bulls new lineup would be
Kirk
kobe
Noc
Tyrus
Wallace

we also get to keep the no.9pick to draft someone who could help. maybe lakers would push for swap of first round picks, so their 19th for our 9th. we will see. but i would love to keep the no.9 and draft an impact player.

so essentially we replace Gordon with Kobe, so huge upgrade there and replace Deng with noc, production might drop off a little but noc is a capable SF when given minutes. besdies no way kobe wants to come to the bulls when the whole team is depleted. 

Lakers get both GOrdon/deng, 2 great young players. along with odom/bryum, this is gonna be a heck of young team, would easily make the playoffs too even in the west. and it's one good PG away to be a 55+wins team.


----------



## truebluefan

Other boards are reporting Bucher said just a while ago they expect a trade by next week. He also said Suns, Knicks and Bulls are the three teams. Also said Bulls are in front and makes the most sense.


----------



## Sith

next week? does paxson have the balls to pull the trigger? I say we stay firm with offer of gordon/deng. Deng is a must starting piece in any package for kobe since he's our most valuable young asset. while gordon might have been the 2nd best player last season for the bulls, but withkobe we have no need for gordon, so naturally we include him too, and lakers want him too from talents stand point. do it now PAXSON!!! deng/gordon/resigned PJ and someone useless for salary purpose for KOBE. draft julian wright or corey brewer with the no.9 pick.


----------



## Snake

The Bulls need to S/T somebody to match salaries, which they can't do until July. Only way to make it happen next week is to include Wallace which I can't see happening.


----------



## spongyfungy

truebluefan said:


> Other boards are reporting Bucher said just a while ago they expect a trade by next week. He also said Suns, Knicks and Bulls are the three teams. Also said Bulls are in front and makes the most sense.


Bucher on ESPN said *if* Kobe is going anywhere it's the Bulls and to expect it *before the draft *so that the Lakers can get the most out of a possible trade. He said no way to the suns because they are in the same conference and no to the knicks because they don't have good enough players


----------



## truebluefan

spongyfungy said:


> Bucher on ESPN said *if* Kobe is going anywhere it's the Bulls and to expect it *before the draft *so that the Lakers can get the most out of a possible trade. He said no way to the suns because they are in the same conference and no to the knicks because they don't have good enough players


Yes, You did a better job of saying it. 

Spongy is right. Well, next week is before the draft. LOL


----------



## Snake

On trade checker only things I can get to work are Wallace + somebody for Kobe which I could kind of, sort of, maybe see happening and then we draft Noah.

The other one was Kobe for Gordon, Hinrich, Thabo, Duhon, Griffin, Krapper. Man that guts the hell out of our backcourt, somebody has to play back there with Kobe. Barret? ugh...


----------



## mgolding

If its Kobe to the bulls its going to have to happen in July. Wallace wont be included IMO because we then slip away from contentiaon which deeats the purpose of the trade and Lakers would lose flexibility which hurts them


----------



## Mr. T

Easily the funniest post not originated by sloth.



> *This is what I tell Chicago...*
> 
> I want Gordon, Deng and #2 pick overall and Nocioni sign and trade.
> 
> Chicagos response? Well we dont have the number 2 pick! We have #9
> 
> 
> My response? Too bad , go get it .
> 
> That way we get Durant, Deng and Gordon. I dont really like Tyrus THomas.
> Nocioni great off the bench.
> 
> LIneup
> 
> Odom, Durant, Deng and Gordon with Bynum in the middle .


 
http://lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=43395


----------



## Philomath

I just wanted to convey the very weird feeling that just washed over me as I bought into the idea that this could potentially really happen. It seems like there's suddenly some significant smoke from that direction. This would be unbelievably huge, dwarfing everything post-Michael. 

I mean, "Go Kobe" would feel weird, right? He is the best, but he also makes my skin crawl... I'm not at all sure I'm ready to see that dude playing MJs position. Man, 81 points is a lot though.

Anyway. Sorry. Carry on.


----------



## anorexorcist

why do people keep saying "wallace won't be included" when the deal CANT BE DONE WITHOUT HIM BEING IN IT FOR FINANCIAL REASONS?

if pax is smart...

BW (for sure)

then the rest, you have the option of

Gordon
Thabo
Tyrus
Kirk
Deng
Nocioni (resigned)
Duhon
PJ (resigned)
#9

Gordon: Will more than likely be the piece included, as people have complained the most about his inconsistency and his lack of defensive skill and his high turnover percentage and his lack of height for the position he plays at.

Kirk: If Gordon doesn't go then he must be included. We can't keep both and expect to get Kobe

Thabo: I could see him being thrown in just to give L.A. some size and some youth back.

Tyrus: If we get Bynum/Kwame/Rad, they will ask for him

Deng: By no means should he be included in this trade, Pax didn't part with him for Gasol and I don't see why he would part with him now especially after his breakout playoffs. History should teach all of you that if there is one truly untouchable player on this team, it is Deng.

Nocioni: Expendable, unless by some odd as hell miracle we give up Deng.

Duhon: I think he stays, not sure why Lakers would want him.

PJ: Only for contract purposes would he be included. I doubt he is included.

#9: We will only give this or Tyrus up if we get #19 in return.

So final trade comes down to this:

Wallace
Kirk/Ben
(Tyrus)/(#9)/(Thabo)
Nocioni/PJ

for

Kobe
Rad/Kwame/Bynum
(#19)

With the items in parentheses being the optional components of the trade should either team make more demands or if salaries need to be adjusted.

I think this is what it boils down to. 

Again any trade with Deng is bad from my perspective, but any trade with both Deng AND Gordon is going to shorten the winning lifespan of this team. We will go from a 10 year window for winning it all to a 3 year window and then back to the lotto. 

Just my thoughts.


----------



## Mr. T

Snake said:


> Gordon goggles? You mean these.:yay:


Clearly you don't worship at the same altar. :biggrin: 









http://i9.tinypic.com/4tiuyqd.jpg


----------



## Baklash

Mr. T said:


> Easily the funniest post not originated by sloth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=43395


I dunno... the Gordon goggles was pretty funny. :clap2:


----------



## rwj333

anorexorcist said:


> why do people keep saying "wallace won't be included" when the deal CANT BE DONE WITHOUT HIM BEING IN IT FOR FINANCIAL REASONS?


This is what I think as well but I'm too lazy to try and prove it. Also, I'm not sure Wallace won't become a cap albatross as soon as next year. Including him in any trade also allows the Lakers to save face by saying they got a former DPOY. 



> Deng: By no means should he be included in this trade, Pax didn't part with him for Gasol and I don't see why he would part with him now especially after his breakout playoffs. History should teach all of you that if there is one truly untouchable player on this team, it is Deng.


Why? Why can't Nocioni and Thabo give us 75% of his production? Deng is great, but it's not like we don't have other options beside him at SF. We have two very solid players who can play his position and do similar things. 



> Again any trade with Deng is bad from my perspective, but *any trade with both Deng AND Gordon is going to shorten the winning lifespan of this team. We will go from a 10 year window for winning it all to a 3 year window and then back to the lotto. *
> 
> Just my thoughts.


I don't understand this statement at all. At the start of this season, Hinrich will be 26. Kobe will be 29. Nocioni wll be 28. Tyrus will be 21. Thabo will be 23. The draft pick will be fairly young, too. I've checked basketball-reference.com, and the elite guards in NBA history didn't sharply decline until 34/35. For example, Dominique Wilkins, Clyde Drexler, Michael Jordan, and Julius Erving were still putting up great stats when they were 34. They may have dropped off a bit defensively but offensively they were still terrific. To me, that indicates that Kobe still has 6 prime years left. 

I think we would have a 6 year window of true contention if we traded for Kobe.


----------



## Baklash

rwj333 said:


> I think we would have a 6 year window of true contention if we traded for Kobe.


I think that's about right. So hard to tell... though on how Kobe will hold up as we are going through new times... with these players coming right out of High School to the NBA, and we can't really base on the length of time these players have due to it never happening before.


----------



## chifaninca

Anorexorcist,

I like your thinking and agree with much of it.


So, if it came down to:

Ben Wallace
Ben Gordon
Tyrus Thomas
and #9

For
Kobe Bryant
Kawme Brown
and #19

Would we do it?

OK This what we get:

PG - Hinrich, Duhon
SG - Kobe, Sefalosha
SF - Deng, Nocioni (no sense it not resigning him)
PF - Joe SMith - Signed via FA MLE 
C - Kwame, Allen resigned

At # 19 in the draft according to Draftexpress and NBAdraft.net - The following guys are available: 

PF/C - Tiaggo SPlitter, PF/C - Josh McRoberts, C - Marc Gasol, Herbert Hill, Etc....

I would almost consider trading from 19 with the Suns to pick up 24 and 29 or with the Sixers to get picks 21 and 30 (we probably give an additional 2nd as well)


Lakers would be much better as well:

PG - Vujacic, Farmar
SG - Gordon
SF - Odom, Walton
PF - Tyrus, Cook
C - Wallace, Bynum

At #9 The have a ton of ways to go.

Actually seems very good for both teams, unless LA is willing to save IT's job in New York and take Frye, Crawford, Lee, Q and picks.

I know IT has to be dreaming of Kone and Curry becoming the next Shaq/Kobe duo with Marbury adding offense.


----------



## bullybullz

mgolding said:


> T.Shock is angling at something similar with Hinrich instead of Deng. I just dont think the Lakers would take on two point guard sized players. Deng is our most valuable player, and when you're talking about trading Kobe, they'yy want our most valuable player.
> 
> In addition to that I would not be drafting a 19 year old point guard (conley) with a very questionable shooting ability to play beside Kobe. Kirks shooting, D and experience would be a much better pairing as far as contending for championships now goes.
> 
> *Championships get won by superstars. The Bulls dont have one*.


2004 Detroit Pistons??


----------



## mgolding

bullybullz said:


> 2004 Detroit Pistons??


If you read my post before that I mentioned that they are the only team to have won a championship since I have been alive without a superstar. So if you want to push for the 1 in 23 year championship then be my guest, Im a fan of the 22 out of 23 side of things. So I will re-iterate, championships (in the vast majority of cases), get won by SUPERSTARS

Here's little list of of every team that has won a championship since Ive been alive. 
----- Post Birth Champs -----
SAS Duncan
MIA Shaq and Wade
DET 1/23
LAL Kobe and Shaq
CHI Jordan and Pippen
HOU Hakeen
DET Thomas
LAL Magic and Kareem
BOS Bird


----------



## bullybullz

mgolding said:


> If you read my post before that I mentioned that they are the only team to have won a championship since I have been alive without a superstar. So if you want to push for the 1 in 23 year championship then be my guest, Im a fan of the 22 out of 23 side of things. So I will re-iterate, championships (in the vast majority of cases), get won by SUPERSTARS
> 
> Here's little list of of every team that has won a championship since Ive been alive.
> ----- Post Birth Champs -----
> SAS Duncan
> MIA Shaq and Wade
> DET 1/23
> LAL Kobe and Shaq
> CHI Jordan and Pippen
> HOU Hakeen
> DET Thomas
> LAL Magic and Kareem
> BOS Bird


Although Detroit didn't have a true superstar, they had five all-star talent players and that's what the Bulls should try as well (since we don't currently have a superstar). Not any of this Kobe nonsense. 

And that superstar list you created even with those players, the supporting cast were amazing. Again all the starters were good in general.

For example, Boston had DJ, Ainge, Bird, McHale, Parish. LA had Magic, Byron Scott, Big Game James, Bob McAdoo, Kareem.


----------



## Mateo

anorexorcist said:


> why do people keep saying "wallace won't be included" when the deal CANT BE DONE WITHOUT HIM BEING IN IT FOR FINANCIAL REASONS?


Because people, correctly, realize that Wallace has an undesirable contract and the Lakers are unlikely to do a trade involving him.


----------



## bullybullz

Mateo said:


> Because people, correctly, realize that Wallace has an undesirable contract and the Lakers are unlikely to do a trade involving him.


Because John Paxson would admit the Ben Wallace signing was a mistake.


----------



## MikeDC

I dont see any way a trade to the Bulls can be done in a week. I just don't see a point to trading Wallace and keeping Kobe. The Lakers wouldn't want him and Kobe wouldn't want to come here if it meant coming to a team with 0 players in the frontcourt. Despite Kobe's age, he's much older in terms of the mileage he's got on him.

So the only way I can imagine a deal getting done with the Bulls is by some sort of sign and trade. Otherwise it will simply be counterproductive for all parties involved.

I am, however, starting to get to the point to think the Bulls, had they done something like Give PJ another year on his contract or trade him for Kurt Thomas, would now be likely to have Kobe.


----------



## BG7

If we trade Gordon, Deng, Ben Wallace, and the #9 pick all for Kobe ****ing Bryant, I'm gonna go cheer for the Lakers. They will at least have a competent front office, they will at least be in win now mode, and hell, they'll be more of a Chicago Bulls team than the Chicago Bulls.

Anyhow, there is one trade that makes sense that can be done before the draft...not involving Wallace.

Bulls Trade:

Kirk Hinrich
Chris Duhon
Viktar Khryapa
Tyrus Thomas
#9 Pick

Lakers Trade:

Kobe Bryant

Maybe Thabo thrown in as a final piece.

Just ignore what the ESPN Trade Machine is saying. Its using Kirk Hinrich's salary from this year, and not his poison pill salary.


----------



## bmac

Mebarak said:


> Anyhow, there is one trade that makes sense that can be done before the draft...not involving Wallace.
> 
> Bulls Trade:
> 
> Kirk Hinrich
> Chris Duhon
> Viktar Khryapa
> Tyrus Thomas
> #9 Pick
> 
> Lakers Trade:
> 
> Kobe Bryant
> 
> Maybe Thabo thrown in as a final piece.
> 
> Just ignore what the ESPN Trade Machine is saying. Its using Kirk Hinrich's salary from this year, and not his poison pill salary.


I think Gordon is almost guaranteed to be part of any Kobe deal. Hinrich would fit in better with Kobe anyway since he's a better/more willing passer and a better defender.

Also doubtful that the Lakers take on Big Ben's contract given they already have Bynum.

Something like Kobe for Gordon, Ty Thomas, Thabo, #9 and filler sounds more likely.


----------



## BG7

bmac said:


> I think Gordon is almost guaranteed to be part of any Kobe deal. Hinrich would fit in better with Kobe anyway since he's a better/more willing passer and a better defender.
> 
> Also doubtful that the Lakers take on Big Ben's contract given they already have Bynum.
> 
> Something like Kobe for Gordon, Ty Thomas, Thabo, #9 and filler sounds more likely.


Naw, definitely sounds less likely. Thats just a plain dumb trade as well.


----------



## truebluefan

I agree Mikedc. LA would not want Wallace and his contract and it makes more sense for Wallace to be here with Kobe than without. 

Either espn is speculating or they know something we don't know.


----------



## truebluefan

Mebarak said:


> If we trade Gordon, Deng, Ben Wallace, and the #9 pick all for Kobe ****ing Bryant, I'm gonna go cheer for the Lakers. They will at least have a competent front office, they will at least be in win now mode, and hell, they'll be more of a Chicago Bulls team than the Chicago Bulls.
> 
> Anyhow, there is one trade that makes sense that can be done before the draft...not involving Wallace.
> 
> Bulls Trade:
> 
> Kirk Hinrich
> Chris Duhon
> Viktar Khryapa
> Tyrus Thomas
> #9 Pick
> 
> Lakers Trade:
> 
> Kobe Bryant
> 
> Maybe Thabo thrown in as a final piece.
> 
> Just ignore what the ESPN Trade Machine is saying. Its using Kirk Hinrich's salary from this year, and not his poison pill salary.


more than likely that trade wont happen. Talking about the first trade you referred to.


----------



## gi0rdun




----------



## truebluefan

Mebarak said:


> Naw, definitely sounds less likely. Thats just a plain dumb trade as well.


Actually his trade is a possibility.


----------



## bmac

Mebarak said:


> Naw, definitely sounds less likely. Thats just a plain dumb trade as well.


You really think Gordon is a better fit with Kobe than Hinrich? There's only so many shots to go around.

The Lakers would be stupid to trade Kobe without getting a bonafide scorer (Gordon) in return anyway.


----------



## Baklash

bmac said:


> You really think Gordon is a better fit with Kobe than Hinrich? There's only so many shots to go around.
> 
> The Lakers would be stupid to trade Kobe without getting a bonafide scorer (Gordon) in return anyway.


Exactly. There is no way the Lakers would not want Ben Gordon if they were trading Kobe to the Bulls.


----------



## Bulldozer

Wallace
TT
Deng
Kobe
???(Duhon/Conley)

Pure hypothetical here: Say if Mike Conley falls to the Bulls at 9, is it possible the Bulls might keep Duhon, and the thinking behind that would be Duhon + Conley > Hinrich, making Kirk "expendable"? With Gordon a near inevitable to be included in this deal, would you be opposed to Kirk and lil Ben as the centerpieces to get Kobe?

There's also an article speculating that *Yi is the key* for the Bulls-Lakers trade, if we can get the China PF @9 or go up and get him.


----------



## MikeDC

Mebarak said:


> Just ignore what the ESPN Trade Machine is saying. Its using Kirk Hinrich's salary from this year, and not his poison pill salary.


It might say it's using his salary, but his PPP salary makes that trade not work.

But you do have a point that this trade, with a few qualifications, I think could work after July 1st when 07-08 salaries values kick in and he becomes BYC instead of PPP. What needs to happen:
* I'm not 100% sure how Kobe's trade kicker affects this. I need to read up on that some more.
* We agree in principle to the trade but it can't be officially done until we sign the draft pick and wait 30 days. Only then is his salary includable in the trade.

So technically, I'm not 100% sure the trade could be done, but it gets close.

But I also am far from sure the Lakers accept Kirk, Tyrus and #9 for Kobe. They could well get a much better offer. But yeah, I'd be all over that.


----------



## BG7

Baklash said:


> Exactly. There is no way the Lakers would not want Ben Gordon if they were trading Kobe to the Bulls.


But what the Lakers want doesn't really matter.

Its better to make this a war of attrition rather than rush into it.


----------



## Amareca

When will people realize that Ben Gordon is nothing more than a tweener, career 6th man?


----------



## chifaninca

Gordon reminds me of a better Michael Redd or Ray Allen. Those guys can light it up and win a few games by themselves offensively, but on the defensive side, they are very average.

I love Gordon and want him to stay, but would part with him as the centerpiece in a Kobe trade.


----------



## futuristxen

Why would you want Ben Gordon if you had Kobe? Gordon will basically just be a spot up shooter playing with Kobe. And a defensive liability. You should want to keep Hinrich and Tyrus Thomas. Anyone else Kobe can pretty much do what they do.


----------



## thunderspirit

bmac said:


> You really think Gordon is a better fit with Kobe than Hinrich?


Have you not read ANY of his posts? 

Of course he does -- Sloth thinks Gordon is the Second Coming.


----------



## Sith

the trade that makes the most sense for both teams are Gordon+Deng+S/T PJ brown + fillers for salary puropse for Kobe Bryant. we can not trade wallace and get kobe, it doesn't make sense for both teams. like I said earlier, we are essentially replacing GOrdon with Kobe, huge upgrade there, and losing deng hurts a bit, but we are talking about getting the best player in the NBA. you gonna give up some talents to get some talent. and any package lakers will sure ask for Deng. maybe we get back one of lakers big contract like Kwame, we could certainly use another big tall body on the roster.

after the trade, we are left with enough pieces to give kobe enough help to at least win the east.

Kirk
kobe
Noc (he can produce if given starter minutes)
Tyrus
Wallace

bench

duhon
Victor
kwame
thabo

the sticky point might be the pick swap, lakers will probably insist on swapping the picks, i hope paxson keeps the no.9, we can really get an impact player at the no.9 in this draft.

Lakers should be very happy too if they had to trade Kobe, Gordon+Deng are about as good as they can get out of kobe. 2 young 20ppg players, classic guys, hard workers. lakers will have a nice young team too.

PG
gordon
deng
odom
byum

great young lineup.


----------



## MikeDC

futuristxen said:


> Why would you want Ben Gordon if you had Kobe? Gordon will basically just be a spot up shooter playing with Kobe. And a defensive liability. You should want to keep Hinrich and Tyrus Thomas. Anyone else Kobe can pretty much do what they do.


See, I don't agree with this. For all the grief given about Gordon, you absolutely do want to pair Kobe with another guy who can create his own shot. Of course you would. It makes two guys out there the defense as to really worry about, and that creates wonderful opportunities.

I also think the defensive issue is over done. Gordon's a fine defender against points and I don't have any real concern about a team of Thabo, Ben, and Kobe being able to bring the ball up court and initiate the offense (which would largely consist of giving it to Ben, Kobe or Deng).

That being said, I'm pretty agnostic about Kirk vs. Ben as a match for Kobe. Obviously Kirk's a better defender and a better set up man than Ben, but he's not someone who scares anyone as an offensive threat either, so it balances out.

Beyond that, Hinrich's contract (after July 1st) is probably slightly easier to trade than Gordon's. I think the realistic option is something like Hinrich and Deng rather than Hinrich and Thomas. If I'm the Lakers, Hinrich and Thomas is very unappealing to me.


----------



## Sith

its going to come down to 2 out of 3 (gordon/kirk/deng), i think tyrus and wallace are not going get traded because we are extremely thin on the front court. kobe wouldnt wanna be here. 

since gordon is a sure way to give up because kobe is replacing him, so it's going to be between kirk and deng. lakers would probably want deng, they might go for kirk, u never know. we hvae noc to replace deng. 

gordon+kirk+no.9 for kobe
or gordon+Deng+throw-ins for kobe

i think one of those 2 trades will happen if Lakers have to trade kobe and kobe wants to come to chicago. thsoe 2 trades make the most sense for both teams.


----------



## thebizkit69u

The more and more I keep hearing about Kobe's uncertainty of what he wants to do with his professional career I just feel like maybe its just best for the Bulls right now to kind of send out word in the media that they aren’t interested in Bryant and will not trade Ben and Deng together in any trade. 

Kobe is great don’t get me wrong but if your going to subtract 2 guys who will average 20+ ppg next season and possibly even a solid contributor in Thomas and a first round pick who may turn into another solid contributor for 1 player then your not really improving your team that much. 

Bulls have 1 other option that IMO can really put this team in the Elite level in the NBA and that’s making a trade for Zach Randolph, yeah he’s got baggage but I would rather take my chances with an guy like Randolph who is open to changing his attitude and play for Skiles then to trade half your team for a Superstar like Bryant who is flip flopping on his career, has a no trade clause, is going to make close to 20 million, can opt out of his contract in 2 years. 

If you’re a true Lakers fan your going to want to trade Kobe to the Bulls for Gordon, Deng and the First round pick and in all honestly if that happens the Lakers win this trade easily. 

If your Lakers management your going to want to trade Kobe to the Knicks for some of their garbage big name players so you can keep Jack Nicholson and Adam Sandler continuing to buy their expensive tickets. 

If you’re a Knicks fan you pray to GOD that the Lakers are dumb enough to take your crap.

If you’re a Bulls fan, your team is in a very comfortable chair right now and dont need to rush into anything.


----------



## Smez86

If Thomas is dealt, especially if PJ is too, what is our frontcourt?


----------



## truebluefan

thebizkit69u said:


> The more and more I keep hearing about Kobe's uncertainty of what he wants to do with his professional career I just feel like maybe its just best for the Bulls right now to kind of send out word in the media that they aren’t interested in Bryant and will not trade Ben and Deng together in any trade.
> 
> Kobe is great don’t get me wrong but if your going to subtract 2 guys who will average 20+ ppg next season and possibly even a solid contributor in Thomas and a first round pick who may turn into another solid contributor for 1 player then your not really improving your team that much.
> 
> Bulls have 1 other option that IMO can really put this team in the Elite level in the NBA and that’s making a trade for Zach Randolph, yeah he’s got baggage but I would rather take my chances with an guy like Randolph who is open to changing his attitude and play for Skiles then to trade half your team for a Superstar like Bryant who is flip flopping on his career, has a no trade clause, is going to make close to 20 million, can opt out of his contract in 2 years.
> 
> If you’re a true Lakers fan your going to want to trade Kobe to the Bulls for Gordon, Deng and the First round pick and in all honestly if that happens the Lakers win this trade easily.
> 
> If your Lakers management your going to want to trade Kobe to the Knicks for some of their garbage big name players so you can keep Jack Nicholson and Adam Sandler continuing to buy their expensive tickets.
> 
> If you’re a Knicks fan you pray to GOD that the Lakers are dumb enough to take your crap.
> 
> If you’re a Bulls fan, your team is in a very comfortable chair right now and dont need to rush into anything.


thats why it wont be both Deng and gordon. Bulls dont want kobe, kobe wants bulls! Big difference.


----------



## Sith

truebluefan said:


> thats why it wont be both Deng and gordon. Bulls dont want kobe, kobe wants bulls! Big difference.



this is the thing, we think man we are losing both gordon and deng, our 2 best young players. it does hurt a bit, but we have to look at from this perspective. Gordon is a must go if we land Kobe, there's aboslutely no room for gordon on the team if we had kobe. unless gordon can come off the bench and be the instant offense guy, but he doenst want to, he wnats to be a starter. once again we are essentially replacing gordon with kobe, so we are not losing anything there for losing gordon. then comes the Deng, obviously our most valuable asset. just 21 or 22, puts up 18/7, shoots great %, excellent guy. but we have noc to replace him, production might drop off a bit but it's not going to far off, if noc is healthy he can put up 15/7. and finally, we are talking about mr. kobe bryant here folks, the best damn player in the NBA. and he's going to be in his prime for another 4years or so. WE HAVE TO MAKE A THE DEAL AT LEAST SOMEWHAT APPEALING TO THE LAKERS. I know Kobe wants to come here, but if lakers are just getting back someone like gordon and throw ins, why the hell would they trade kobe, they still have him under contracts for at least 2 more years. 

another scenario would be Yi is avaiable at the no.9, given L.A has large asian population, just maybe maybe, lakers would let go for gordon+yi as the main pieces, but highly unlikely. I think lakers will want gordon+deng and will insist on swapping the picks so they can pick up Yi. key is can we get someone good back from the Lakers too for swapping the no.9? 

at the end of the day, if we can land kobe for deng+gordon as the essential pieces, i will be thrilled. we are definitely going to be considered as the favorite in the east.


----------



## truebluefan

Dont have the link, but NY post says offer on the table. 

Lee, Frye, crawford for kobe.


----------



## truebluefan

Sith said:


> this is the thing, we think man we are losing both gordon and deng, our 2 best young players. it does hurt a bit, but we have to look at from this perspective. Gordon is a must go if we land Kobe, there's aboslutely no room for gordon on the team if we had kobe. unless gordon can come off the bench and be the instant offense guy, but he doenst want to, he wnats to be a starter. once again we are essentially replacing gordon with kobe, so we are not losing anything there for losing gordon. then comes the Deng, obviously our most valuable asset. just 21 or 22, puts up 18/7, shoots great %, excellent guy. but we have noc to replace him, production might drop off a bit but it's not going to far off, if noc is healthy he can put up 15/7. and finally, we are talking about mr. kobe bryant here folks, the best damn player in the NBA. and he's going to be in his prime for another 4years or so. WE HAVE TO MAKE A THE DEAL AT LEAST SOMEWHAT APPEALING TO THE LAKERS. I know Kobe wants to come here, but if lakers are just getting back someone like gordon and throw ins, why the hell would they trade kobe, they still have him under contracts for at least 2 more years.
> 
> another scenario would be Yi is avaiable at the no.9, given L.A has large asian population, just maybe maybe, lakers would let go for gordon+yi as the main pieces, but highly unlikely. I think lakers will want gordon+deng and will insist on swapping the picks so they can pick up Yi. key is can we get someone good back from the Lakers too for swapping the no.9?
> 
> at the end of the day, if we can land kobe for deng+gordon as the essential pieces, i will be thrilled. we are definitely going to be considered as the favorite in the east.



But if we give up both, (deng, Gordon) Who will score? Nocioni can score but is irratic. Kobe will be triple teamed.

Again, when heat got Shaq, they kept Wade for that very reason! So we keep Deng.


----------



## chibul

If the two options are trading Gordon and Deng for Bryant, or keeping status quo...I vote to keep status quo.

I hope the Bulls never even consider this.


----------



## chibul

truebluefan said:


> But if we give up both, (deng, Gordon) Who will score? Nocioni can score but is irratic. Kobe will be triple teamed.


We'd turn into the Lakers. This does NOT benefit us.


----------



## truebluefan

chibul said:


> We'd turn into the Lakers. This does NOT benefit us.


Exactly my point! Thanks.


----------



## Bulldozer

There's no way Deng gets dealt. The league knows how valuable this guy is. He's 6'9, and working on his game closing in from the 3pt line. We witnessed him eliminate that from his repertoire, and he shot 52% from the field. The next step would be to utilize his length a bit more, and to develop a respectable "Tayshaun Prince-like" inside game. I have full confidence that Deng is going to get even better. He may be limited athletically, but his improving skills are whats more important. Refer to Kevin Durant as an example of that.

If we trade Deng for Kobe, then both Hinrich and Gordon would stay, with Kobe playing SF. I'm very confident that Deng/Gordon or Deng/Hinrich for Kobe won't happen.

The Lakers need a PG, and Hinrich would be a big time boost for them. Gordon would replace Kobe. That's about 38 ppg outgoing from the Bulls. These two as centerpieces make the most sense, _(even though it isnt popular)_ and I believe the Bulls wouldn't have to include much else (S&T??) to finalize it. The Bulls would "take a hit" with Chris Duhon, but we get to keep the 9th pick and now we become more flexibile in the draft.

Now "Im not really sayin', but Im just saying" that this scenario should be entertained a bit more as well.


----------



## Sith

pepole forget that gordon is the MUST -GO,so it's essentially just Deng. we could do Gordon+Tyrus+no.9. but we would be extremely thin on the front court. i think tyrus would be a monster playing with kobe, kobe's penetration and scoring threat will open up the lane for more dunks for Tyrus.

so which deal do you guys want?
gordon+tyrus+no.9 

vs

gordon+deng?


----------



## truebluefan

Sith said:


> pepole forget that gordon is the MUST -GO,so it's essentially just Deng. we could do Gordon+Tyrus+no.9. but we would be extremely thin on the front court. i think tyrus would be a monster playing with kobe, kobe's penetration and scoring threat will open up the lane for more dunks for Tyrus.
> 
> so which deal do you guys want?
> gordon+tyrus+no.9
> 
> vs
> 
> gordon+deng?


For that matter anyone could be left open for dunks! Wallace, resigned brown, Nocioni, a player signed with mle...


----------



## futuristxen

truebluefan said:


> Dont have the link, but NY post says offer on the table.
> 
> Lee, Frye, crawford for kobe.


So that would leave:
Marbury
Kobe
Jefferies
Rose
Curry

With Q, Robinson, Francis coming off the bench. Not much in terms of front court defending or rebounding. But they could probably put up some serious points.


----------



## magic_bryant

Sith said:


> its going to come down to 2 out of 3 (gordon/kirk/deng), i think tyrus and wallace are not going get traded because we are extremely thin on the front court. kobe wouldnt wanna be here.
> 
> since gordon is a sure way to give up because kobe is replacing him, so it's going to be between kirk and deng. lakers would probably want deng, they might go for kirk, u never know. we hvae noc to replace deng.
> 
> gordon+kirk+no.9 for kobe
> or gordon+Deng+throw-ins for kobe
> 
> i think one of those 2 trades will happen if Lakers have to trade kobe and kobe wants to come to chicago. thsoe 2 trades make the most sense for both teams.


Bingo.

However, given Kupchak and the FO's VERY REAL fascination with Yi Jian-Lian, LA will likely cave at any deal that nets at least Gordon+#9. Danny Ainge wants to move #5, and Kupchak would be more than willing to offer Gordon and #9 for Delonte West and #5. 

Kupchak gets his shooter (never underestimate Mitch's fascination with shooting) and LA's great jersey and ticket seller in Yi. 

My best guess is that Kupchak takes a package of Gordon, LA's choice of #9 or Tyrus Thomas, Nocioni, Duhon, and Ben Wallace if before the draft. If after the draft, LA replaces Big Ben with PJ Brown. 

Kupchak's fascination leads him to taking #9 and a chance at Yi over Thomas. 

Hinrich's K makes him a less valuable trade commodity, therefore Gordon is the preference, IMO.


----------



## T.Shock

futuristxen said:


> So that would leave:
> Marbury
> Kobe
> Jefferies
> Rose
> Curry
> 
> With Q, Robinson, Francis coming off the bench. Not much in terms of front court defending or rebounding. But they could probably put up some serious points.


Do the Lakers take Lee, Frye, and Crawford. If the Bulls need to match that, they can easily. Tyrus Thomas, #9 Pick, Ben Gordon. Isn't that better than Lee, Frye, and Crawford? 

I still say that Deng has to stay. You want to build a championship team, Deng stays and plays the Pip to Kobe's MJ. I'd much rather have Deng than Hinrich. Deng and Ben Wallace stay, Lakers can take their pick of anything else. They want Hinrich, Gordon, Tyrus, #9. Do it. 

However, personally, I think I'd much rather enjoy watching the current Bulls team than a Kobe-led Bulls team. But at the same time, Kobe to the Bulls would be exciting as hell. I'm so confused.


----------



## Sith

bottom line, it's time to consolidate,we have waited too long already. too many good players, not a single great player. guys like kobe doesn't become avaviable everyday, when it does, make it happen! people worry about this and that, remember we don't need a "good" player in every position. sometimes looking good on the paper doens't translate wins on the court. 

do it now paxson, gordon+Deng for kobe we will fill out the rest of our rosters


----------



## bre9

I bet Lakers are going to want both Deng and Gordon.


----------



## truebluefan

bre9 said:


> I bet Lakers are going to want both Deng and Gordon.


sure they will! But that doesnt mean we do it.


----------



## ChadWick

i say gordon+deng, and draft someone wit #9


----------



## BULLHITTER

i don't see the bulls giving the lakers their starting backcourt; that's asinine. one of the two of gordon/hinrich, a bench guy (sefolosha, noc) and maybe a pick. gutting the team to be replace by MLE guys doesn't really do anything for continuity, chemistry, or the pursuit of a championship. i don't see bryant wanting to come to the bulls if gordon,deng *and *wallace are gone.

the bulls don't improve that way at all. the lakers can expect to get the dookie end of the stick, unless they let kobe opt out whenever that time comes. personally, i think the lakers hold him to his contract, kobe plays disgruntled for 2 more years, and the bulls pick 1 player in this draft and a decent big in FA. much ado about nothing......nothing to see here folks, move on, nothing to see here.:scatter:


----------



## DANNY

magic_bryant said:


> Bingo.
> 
> However, given Kupchak and the FO's VERY REAL fascination with Yi Jian-Lian, LA will likely cave at any deal that nets at least Gordon+#9. Danny Ainge wants to move #5, and *Kupchak would be more than willing to offer Gordon and #9 for Delonte West and #5. *
> 
> Kupchak gets his shooter (never underestimate Mitch's fascination with shooting) and LA's great jersey and ticket seller in Yi.
> 
> My best guess is that Kupchak takes a package of Gordon, LA's choice of #9 or Tyrus Thomas, Nocioni, Duhon, and Ben Wallace if before the draft. If after the draft, LA replaces Big Ben with PJ Brown.
> 
> Kupchak's fascination leads him to taking #9 and a chance at Yi over Thomas.
> 
> *Hinrich's K makes him a less valuable trade commodity, therefore Gordon is the preference*, IMO.


You really think gordon + 9th pick for west & 5th pick is a no brainer deal? Now imagine you're (it's John) Paxson and the Celtics offered the same package? Would you do it? 
You're depicting Kupchak as some (No need for that) who has a man crush on 7 foot Chinese man. I have no problem with your wild facination, but reality is Kupchak is just a dummy controlled by the Buss family. He's got no authority to **** over a franchise for his manly love.

Gordon is up for an extension anyways. Why would it matter?


----------



## rwj333

MikeDC said:


> See, I don't agree with this. For all the grief given about Gordon, you absolutely do want to pair Kobe with another guy who can create his own shot. Of course you would. It makes two guys out there the defense as to really worry about, and that creates wonderful opportunities.
> 
> I also think the defensive issue is over done. Gordon's a fine defender against points and I don't have any real concern about a team of Thabo, Ben, and Kobe being able to bring the ball up court and initiate the offense (which would largely consist of giving it to Ben, Kobe or Deng).
> 
> That being said, I'm pretty agnostic about Kirk vs. Ben as a match for Kobe. Obviously Kirk's a better defender and a better set up man than Ben, but he's not someone who scares anyone as an offensive threat either, so it balances out.
> 
> Beyond that, Hinrich's contract (after July 1st) is probably slightly easier to trade than Gordon's. I think the realistic option is something like Hinrich and Deng rather than Hinrich and Thomas. If I'm the Lakers, Hinrich and Thomas is very unappealing to me.


If I was comfortable with Gordon bringing the ball up the court or just his ball-handling in general, I think I'd be right there with you and sloth.  If Gordon and Kobe were starting, I think Skiles would be forced to make Kobe bring the ball up the court. Kobe is talented enough to do it well, but I don't think it makes sense to place further burden on a guy who plays 40 minutes a night and is nearing 30. That's the tiebreaker for me. 

There's a decent chance that Gordon will develop in this area, but right now he's not very good at it. And I say that as a person who wanted the ball in Gordon's hands in halfcourt sets. I actually agree with sloth that Gordon, for all his faults, was usually most effective running the team.


----------



## ace20004u

It's an exciting time to be a Bulls fan right now, thats for sure. First off, just to clarify, Kobe's list of teams is Phx, Ny, & Chicago. I have to believe that Chicago is the only team on that list highlighted, underlined, and circled. LA won't deal with Phx because they are a conference rival (according to ESPN's Ric Bucher), NY doesn't have the talent (same source) and the Bulls are clear frontrunners. Bucher also said he expects a deal to be done before the draft. I think a deal, in principle, may be agreed to before the draft but because of S&T rules, and we will need to S&T Brown or Nocioni unless we deal Wallace or half the team, but it won't be consumated till 07/01. Of course Noc or Brown would have to agree to a sign & trade, I can't imagine PJ turning down a big payday but don't CBA rules say he has to be signed for a minimum of 3 years in a S&T? If so, I can't imagine LA overpaying Brown for 3 years. Noc would be ideal but there is a rumor that he wants to return to his Spanish team too. Still, the money he would make in a s&T would be slightly inflated and hopefully would make Noc reconsider. 

The Bulls aren't dealing Deng, he is always at the Berto and guys that work that hard are rare and set the tone for a team. I am surprised to hear so many people eager to give up both Gordon & Deng for Kobe, it just isn't going to happen IMO. 

Truth is, the deal I see most likely is a resigned Noc, Gordon, #9 pick (signed), Sweetney and fodder for Kobe. LA isn't in a position to demand much more than that and if the Bulls had to give up much more than that Kobe probably wouldn't want the trade. An alternate possibility would be trading Wallace & Gordon for Kobe & Brown or Bynum (though he doesn't suppossedly get along with Kobe). Still, the Bulls are in the drivers seat here if they can keep LA from being interested in in one of IT's fevered pitches. Suppossedly NY is willing to part with Lee, Crawford, Frye & their draft picks for Kobe, thats a HUGE offer and one LA would probably hold up to a microscope with the deal we proposed. I don't think Crawford would go to LA in a deal though as he and Kobe are friends and Kobe probably wants to play with him & Curry, that and NY's market size prestige of the Garden is probably the only reason NY is on his list. 

Oh and btw, we can't sign & trade BOTH Noc & Brown in the same deal FWIW.

ACE


----------



## MikeDC

rwj333 said:


> If I was comfortable with Gordon bringing the ball up the court or just his ball-handling in general, I think I'd be right there with you and sloth.  If Gordon and Kobe were starting, I think Skiles would be forced to make Kobe bring the ball up the court. Kobe is talented enough to do it well, but I don't think it makes sense to place further burden on a guy who plays 40 minutes a night and is nearing 30. That's the tiebreaker for me.
> 
> There's a decent chance that Gordon will develop in this area, but right now he's not very good at it. And I say that as a person who wanted the ball in Gordon's hands in halfcourt sets. I actually agree with sloth that Gordon, for all his faults, was usually most effective running the team.


See, I didn't think Gordon had huge problems bringing it up the court. Where he got in trouble was in initiating a play that was beyond "Create a shot for Ben or dump it off!" in complexity.

But let's consider something for a minute. Suppose you've got Ben and Kobe. Thhe other guy on the court could be Deng, though personally I have a hell of a time seeing the Lakers take just Hinrich, Ty and the pick. But lets say it's Deng.

Offensively, we're going to be a 3 headed monster of Deng, Ben and Kobe. Perhaps we try out something where Deng plays some 4 and we've got Thabo on the court too. That's actually the sort of lineup I'd prefer, except when we're completely outclassed on size. If three of those guys can bring the ball up and make an initial pass, you've got a pretty fair amount of flexibility.

It also wouldn't absolutely astound me (just moderately surprise me) to learn that Deng is working a lot on his ball handling in that sort of situation. 

I think with a team full of guys like that, and with a couple of garbage man (and I mean that in a good way) up front in Big Ben, you could really pull off a triangle(-like?) offense where you rely on eveyone to know where to go rather than putting everything in the hands of the PG to make plays. 

Now that I think about it, I'm a little skeptical about Skiles' willingness to take that sort of appoach, but I think that's the right way to go because it could be scary effective.


----------



## MikeDC

ace20004u said:


> It's an exciting time to be a Bulls fan right now, thats for sure. First off, just to clarify, Kobe's list of teams is Phx, Ny, & Chicago. I have to believe that Chicago is the only team on that list highlighted, underlined, and circled. LA won't deal with Phx because they are a conference rival (according to ESPN's Ric Bucher), NY doesn't have the talent (same source) and the Bulls are clear frontrunners. Bucher also said he expects a deal to be done before the draft. I think a deal, in principle, may be agreed to before the draft but because of S&T rules, and we will need to S&T Brown or Nocioni unless we deal Wallace or half the team, but it won't be consumated till 07/01.


Nice to see you Ace!

I think if the Lakers know what's good for them, they might have to consider dealing with Phoenix.

Let's assume your deal is about right in what the Bulls offer


> Noc, Gordon, #9 pick (signed), Sweetney and fodder for Kobe.


So you've got a slightly overpaid Noc, Gordon, who's due an extension, and the #9 pick. This coupled with the long-term deals the Lakers already have on the books, sort of cements them as Bynum, Odom, Radmanovic, Gordon, Noc for a while. That's a nice team, but honestly, it doesn't look like the sort of team I think Lakers fans have come to expect. It's nice, but there's not a lot of room for immediate improvement.

Now consider what the Suns could offer. They could offer Matrix, Kurt Thomas' expiring deal, and Barbosa for Kobe, and would leave the Lakers in a much better position.

Bynum, Odom, Matrix, Barbosa. Barbosa and Gordon are pretty similar, and I'd certainly take Matrix over Radmanovic and Noc. So there's some star power there, and it's a pretty good without any obvious bad deals like Radmanovic.

The Suns could probably give all that up and still feel very good about winning a title or two with Nash, Kobe, Diaw, Amare and Raja Bell.

The Knicks, well, they don't offer the sort of immediate players that the Suns or Bulls do. I think all they realistically can offer is a chance for a blank slate. I mean, Lee and Frye are still basically prospects at this point, and Crawford's contact still isn't ideal. I think the best the Knicks could offer is Lee, Frye, their pick, and offer to take Radmanovic back too for shorter deals like Francis and Rose (if they want Crawford, I'd obviously give him and take out Rose). The nice thing about that, I guess, is they get a boatload of cap room in a couple years when Rose and Francis come off the books. It'd give them a better cap setup than the Bulls' offer you suggest, but probably not the same sort of players. Then again, I'd probably tade Noc for Lee or Frye, so we're really talking about Gordon. It's at least debatable.

So I guess what I'm getting at is that if the choices are something like that, the Bulls would probably need to up their offer. Otherwise, the Lakers might send him to Phoenix or New York instead. So the question then is whether it's worth it to up our offer?


----------



## Mateo

I can't believe the report is that Thomas says Frye and Lee are on the table but not Curry. Doesn't he know that Lee is a significantly better player than Curry?


----------



## SALO

I don't believe Phoenix becomes a true contender (especially in the Western Conference) if they part with Marion, Barbosa, Diaw etc. Marion is an all-star PF/SF and a double-double machine with tremendous athletic ability. He also doesn't need any plays set up for him to get his 20 pts. 

Barbosa is a perennial 6th man of the year for the Suns, but has the poential to be a lot more on another team. 

Kobe to the Eastern Conference makes more sense because he could be like LeBron and actually carry a team to the NBA Finals. The best teams in the East this year (Detroit, Cleveland) would have never come out of the West. They don't get past San Antonio, Dallas, Phoenix, or even Utah. The bottom 4 seeds would have also given the East problems, IMO. 

PJ Brown for Kurt Thomas + a pick at the deadline looks like another wasted opportuniy for Pax. Phoenix was ordered to dump $8M off their payroll recently. Losing KT's salary for PJ would have done that by itself. It would have benefited us because we'd be in the running for guys like Kobe, Gasol, Randolph, KG etc. without having to depend on sign and trades or BYC issues.


----------



## Amareca

Thomas is right, also Thomas is a great talent evaluator, he just seems clueless how to put a working team together.

PS: Phoenix already IS a true contender, in fact Phoenix is the best team in the league already anyway. You are telling me that Nash/Bell/Kobe/Diaw/Amare Bench: Thomas, G.Hill, J.Jones, Banks etc would not be a true contender? You must be kidding.


----------



## Ras

Amareca said:


> Thomas is right, also Thomas is a great talent evaluator, he just seems clueless how to put a working team together.
> 
> PS: Phoenix already IS a true contender, *in fact Phoenix is the best team in the league already anyway. *You are telling me that Nash/Bell/Kobe/Diaw/Amare Bench: Thomas, G.Hill, J.Jones, Banks etc would not be a true contender? You must be kidding.


Yet they didn't win the championship, how odd.


----------



## Snake

Maybe the Bulls should draft Conley or Yi in hopes of trading them to LA. Both have star potential. With Yi LA could spin it as the next big international prospect (he'd make them a lot of money too), or with Conley they could say he's the next hot young PG in the mold of Paul or Williams.

I'd certainly feel better about trading them one of those guys instead of an established guy like Deng.


----------



## MikeDC

SALO said:


> I don't believe Phoenix becomes a true contender (especially in the Western Conference) if they part with Marion, Barbosa, Diaw etc. Marion is an all-star PF/SF and a double-double machine with tremendous athletic ability. He also doesn't need any plays set up for him to get his 20 pts.


I don't know about that. I think you put Nash, Kobe and Amare together and you've possibly got 3 of the top 10 players in the league. Bell and Diaw are nice role players, and in the deal I thought about, Radmanovic, while overpaid, would also fill a decent role. That makes a hell of a team IMO.


----------



## chifaninca

I agree Mike DC, but it's really difficult to sell your fan base, especially LA that you made your team better than the Suns with that deal.

Plus, LA will get beaten like a drum by Phoenix for a long time..............of course, that happens now too........LOL


----------



## Snake

Just thinking, is there anyway the Bulls can work up a trade excemption by renouncing the rights to some of our players. LA would welcome the immediate cap relief.


----------



## DANNY

> The Associated Press has put out a story that claims to have new quotes from Kobe off his web site. Well, they're not new at all. It's the same comments he posted on May 30, but for some reason whoever operates his page keeps putting an updated date on the blog. If you click the post, on this blog, titled ``Kobe's lastest TRUTH,'' you'll get the exact same message that the AP is claiming to be new.
> 
> This thing couldn't possibly be any more of a circus. The sooner everyone realizes that Kobe isn't going to be traded, and that all of this is just good talk-radio and headline material, the happier we will all be.


 -ITL

enjoy while it last


----------



## Snake

dannyM said:


> -ITL
> 
> enjoy while it last


Didn't this new wave of Kobe talk start when Kobe had a meeting with Buss and said he wants to be traded...


----------



## ace20004u

MikeDC said:


> Nice to see you Ace!
> 
> I think if the Lakers know what's good for them, they might have to consider dealing with Phoenix.
> 
> Let's assume your deal is about right in what the Bulls offer
> 
> 
> So you've got a slightly overpaid Noc, Gordon, who's due an extension, and the #9 pick. This coupled with the long-term deals the Lakers already have on the books, sort of cements them as Bynum, Odom, Radmanovic, Gordon, Noc for a while. That's a nice team, but honestly, it doesn't look like the sort of team I think Lakers fans have come to expect. It's nice, but there's not a lot of room for immediate improvement.
> 
> Now consider what the Suns could offer. They could offer Matrix, Kurt Thomas' expiring deal, and Barbosa for Kobe, and would leave the Lakers in a much better position.
> 
> Bynum, Odom, Matrix, Barbosa. Barbosa and Gordon are pretty similar, and I'd certainly take Matrix over Radmanovic and Noc. So there's some star power there, and it's a pretty good without any obvious bad deals like Radmanovic.
> 
> The Suns could probably give all that up and still feel very good about winning a title or two with Nash, Kobe, Diaw, Amare and Raja Bell.
> 
> The Knicks, well, they don't offer the sort of immediate players that the Suns or Bulls do. I think all they realistically can offer is a chance for a blank slate. I mean, Lee and Frye are still basically prospects at this point, and Crawford's contact still isn't ideal. I think the best the Knicks could offer is Lee, Frye, their pick, and offer to take Radmanovic back too for shorter deals like Francis and Rose (if they want Crawford, I'd obviously give him and take out Rose). The nice thing about that, I guess, is they get a boatload of cap room in a couple years when Rose and Francis come off the books. It'd give them a better cap setup than the Bulls' offer you suggest, but probably not the same sort of players. Then again, I'd probably tade Noc for Lee or Frye, so we're really talking about Gordon. It's at least debatable.
> 
> So I guess what I'm getting at is that if the choices are something like that, the Bulls would probably need to up their offer. Otherwise, the Lakers might send him to Phoenix or New York instead. So the question then is whether it's worth it to up our offer?



Good to see you too Mike, I hope you are doing well, and everyone else round these parts for that matter.

The thought of the Lakers dealing with Phoenix does scare me. Ric Bucher was the one who said that LA wouldn't deal with a conference rival and that is traditional sort of thinking in this situation. It's true LA only plays PHX twice more than the Eastern teams but I doubt they would enjoy going up against a motivated Kobe in the playoffs out west either. It's a tough call, undoubtedly they could get more from Phx, at least initially. I wouldn't be surprised if Kerr sees this as an opportunity to hit a homerun with his first at bat either. Phoenix has to shed salary, theoretically I guess they could even deal Amare instead of Marion if they wanted though I don't know what his contract looks like. The Bulls could sweeten their offer, throw in Duhon (who I see potentially being traded for Collison along with draft picks cash) throw in Tyrus, or add a 2009 1st rounder which probably won't be worth much. Adding Tyrus would probably be our best bet for beating Phx offer. I guess it really depends on what LA likes best. I am sure Kobe would be stoked to play with what was left in Phx and him & Nash in the backcourt would be a great tandem. I still think Kobe probably prefers Chicago, he has been oogling them for a while now. 

I think Bucher is definitley mistaken about two things. A deal probably won't be done before the draft unless it is an agreement in principle. Also, NY does have the talent to make an offer. Lee is a double double guy who hustles and was outrebounding Tim Duncan most of the year last year. Frye, IMO, is Duncan lite, he just hasn't quite arrived yet. And Francis is decent though not as appealing as Gordon. Plus the Knicks could throw in both of their picks which are relatively low but still enticing. 

In any case, my personal preference would be to add Kobe to a core of Hinrich, Deng (who I don't see going anywhere), Wallace, Tyrus & Thabo. Gordon & Nocioni both have some value as does the #9 pick. I wouldn't part with say two of Hinrich, Gordon, Deng. Maybe Wallace & Gordon for Kobe & Brown. We do have some other pieces to sweeten the deal a little, I think ultimately it will come down to where Kobe wants to go and what package is appealing enough to LA while still working for Kobe.

ACE


----------



## ace20004u

Snake said:


> Didn't this new wave of Kobe talk start when Kobe had a meeting with Buss and said he wants to be traded...


yes it did, they met in Barcelona and Kobe said "trade me!". It appears that Kobe is pissed off that Buss threw him under the bus by saying it was Kobe's fault SHaq was dealt for so little, Kobe no likeee being blamed for that.

ACE


----------



## chibul

Amareca said:


> Thomas is right, also Thomas is a great talent evaluator, he just seems clueless how to put a working team together.
> 
> PS: Phoenix already IS a true contender, in fact Phoenix is the best team in the league already anyway. You are telling me that Nash/Bell/Kobe/Diaw/Amare Bench: Thomas, G.Hill, J.Jones, Banks etc would not be a true contender? You must be kidding.


Grant Hill? Huh?


----------



## T.Shock

ace20004u said:


> Good to see you too Mike, I hope you are doing well, and everyone else round these parts for that matter.
> 
> The thought of the Lakers dealing with Phoenix does scare me. Ric Bucher was the one who said that LA wouldn't deal with a conference rival and that is traditional sort of thinking in this situation. It's true LA only plays PHX twice more than the Eastern teams but I doubt they would enjoy going up against a motivated Kobe in the playoffs out west either. It's a tough call, undoubtedly they could get more from Phx, at least initially. I wouldn't be surprised if Kerr sees this as an opportunity to hit a homerun with his first at bat either. Phoenix has to shed salary, theoretically I guess they could even deal Amare instead of Marion if they wanted though I don't know what his contract looks like. The Bulls could sweeten their offer, throw in Duhon (who I see potentially being traded for Collison along with draft picks cash) throw in Tyrus, or add a 2009 1st rounder which probably won't be worth much. Adding Tyrus would probably be our best bet for beating Phx offer. I guess it really depends on what LA likes best. I am sure Kobe would be stoked to play with what was left in Phx and him & Nash in the backcourt would be a great tandem. I still think Kobe probably prefers Chicago, he has been oogling them for a while now.
> 
> I think Bucher is definitley mistaken about two things. A deal probably won't be done before the draft unless it is an agreement in principle. Also, NY does have the talent to make an offer. Lee is a double double guy who hustles and was outrebounding Tim Duncan most of the year last year. Frye, IMO, is Duncan lite, he just hasn't quite arrived yet. And Francis is decent though not as appealing as Gordon. Plus the Knicks could throw in both of their picks which are relatively low but still enticing.
> 
> In any case, my personal preference would be to add Kobe to a core of Hinrich, Deng (who I don't see going anywhere), Wallace, Tyrus & Thabo. Gordon & Nocioni both have some value as does the #9 pick. I wouldn't part with say two of Hinrich, Gordon, Deng. Maybe Wallace & Gordon for Kobe & Brown. We do have some other pieces to sweeten the deal a little, I think ultimately it will come down to where Kobe wants to go and what package is appealing enough to LA while still working for Kobe.
> 
> ACE


As I broke down in an earlier post. Would Kobe really want to go to a team losing its best bench player, a supposedly up-and-coming big man and one that didn't make the playoffs. Again, look at the Shaq trade. The Heat were a young team with three good players(Wade, Butler, Odom) and the Shaq deal included the 2nd and 3rd best player from that trio, cap relief, and a pick.

Hypothetically, two seperate deals could be consumated. A #9 for #19 and filler trade would work on draft day. Then Hinrich, Gordon, P.J. (S&T) for Kobe would end up being about the same package the Lakers got for Shaq. Now if they hadn't turned Caron into Kwame they'd have Hinrich/Gordon/Butler/Odom/Bynum and not to mention that a Kobe/Butler/Odom trip is pretty good in and of itself.


----------



## Snake

ace20004u said:


> yes it did, they met in Barcelona and Kobe said "trade me!". It appears that Kobe is pissed off that Buss threw him under the bus by saying it was Kobe's fault SHaq was dealt for so little, Kobe no likeee being blamed for that.
> 
> ACE


Not sure if this is interesting or even relevant but looks like Kobe was hanging out with Ronaldinho in Barcelona. Wonder if Nike had anything to do with that.

http://sports.yahoo.com/sow/news;_ylt=AsHXvlRfISDvAFCCZ0G0DUkXwLYF?slug=ap-barcelona-kobebryant&prov=ap&type=lgns


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## Darius Miles Davis

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=675210&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

There's a poster over at realgm on the Wolves board of good reputation who says that KG might well be on his way to Phoenix, and that a deal might even have been agreed to in principle last night. I mention this here because I don't want to make an independent thread yet, considering how this hardly constitutes proof. A trade with Phoenix for KG would have to take Phoenix out of the Kobe sweepstakes.


----------



## T.Shock

The way I look at John Paxson has three options this summer...

1.Trade for the one top-5 player on the market.(Kobe)
2.Make a deal for a B-level post scorer (Jermaine O'Neal, Zach Randolph, Pau Gasol, etc.)
3.Draft Noah or Yi or Hawes with the #9 pick and hope the team grows internally. 

Option 1 gives the Bulls a legit chance to win the title if we can hang onto a couple of our core guys.
Option 2 gives the Bulls a decent chance to win the title if one of the post scorers can be had without giving up Deng or Gordon
Option 3 gives the Bulls an outside chance to win the title keeping the current squad together.

All three options still don't register on the 'win now' meter of Shaq's deal, but do shorten the time span from 10 years to about 5 years.


----------



## Snake

Darius Miles Davis said:


> http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=675210&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
> 
> There's a poster over at realgm on the Wolves board of good reputation who says that KG might well be on his way to Phoenix, and that a deal might even have been agreed to in principle last night. I mention this here because I don't want to make an independent thread yet, considering how this hardly constitutes proof. A trade with Phoenix for KG would have to take Phoenix out of the Kobe sweepstakes.


Very interesting. So McHale might actually have the guts to deal KG. Might the Wolves commitment to drafting Hawes have resulted from this?

Anyone remember the rumor a few weeks back that had Phoenix getting KG Bulls getting Amare and Minnesota getting young guys. Man I'd be all over that.


----------



## dsouljah9

Darius Miles Davis said:


> http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=675210&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
> 
> There's a poster over at realgm on the Wolves board of good reputation who says that KG might well be on his way to Phoenix, and that a deal might even have been agreed to in principle last night. I mention this here because I don't want to make an independent thread yet, considering how this hardly constitutes proof. A trade with Phoenix for KG would have to take Phoenix out of the Kobe sweepstakes.


Phoenix wants to shed salary and they're going to take on K.G's bloated contract?


----------



## thebizkit69u

What’s the bigger risk, Zach Randolph's stupid off the court attitude or Kobe Bryant's franchise killing history? 

I would feel a lot better if the Bulls took a risk on Zach who at worst is just going to embarrass your franchise, then to go after Kobe and risk turning into the Timberwolves or even worst if he leaves going back to the early 2000's Bulls teams.


----------



## MikeDC

Darius Miles Davis said:


> http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=675210&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
> 
> There's a poster over at realgm on the Wolves board of good reputation who says that KG might well be on his way to Phoenix, and that a deal might even have been agreed to in principle last night. I mention this here because I don't want to make an independent thread yet, considering how this hardly constitutes proof. *A trade with Phoenix for KG would have to take Phoenix out of the Kobe sweepstakes.*


One would assume so, of course, but maybe the bull off something outlandish and get both of them.


----------



## bullybullz

truebluefan said:


> Dont have the link, but NY post says offer on the table.
> 
> Lee, Frye, crawford for kobe.


Man, and were trading Gordon, Deng, Tyrus, our pick, P.J. and fillers for Kobe!! Jesus, all those players the Knicks are offering aren't that great and hard-workers with the exception of David Lee.


----------



## Baklash

bullybullz said:


> Man, and were trading Gordon, Deng, Tyrus, our pick, P.J. and fillers for Kobe!! Jesus, all those players the Knicks are offering aren't that great and hard-workers with the exception of David Lee.


Where did you get that info from? I'm pretty sure Wallace would need to be in the deal as well.


----------



## bullybullz

Baklash said:


> Where did you get that info from? I'm pretty sure Wallace would need to be in the deal as well.


_One report had the Lakers hoping to acquire Ben Wallace, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng and the Bulls' top pick (No. 9) in the draft for Bryant_

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=rotowire-oberyanthicagoinisut&prov=rotowire&type=fantasy

OK, the first one I was exaggerating but this one I am not. This trade would be horrible for the Bulls. We give up 3/5 of our starting line-up for Kobe. This trade benefits the Lakers a lot more than the Bulls. 

Look at the Lakers line-up 

PG #9 Pick
SG Ben Gordon
SF Luol Deng
PF Lamar Odom
C Ben Wallace

One could make a case that the Lakers starting line-up would be better than last year's (With Kobe).

While the Bulls become real thin in the frontcourt and become worse as a team overall. We don't even get to keep our pick.

PG Kirk Hinrich
SG Kobe Bryant
SF Andres Nocioni
PF Tyrus Thomas
C Free Agency?? 2nd Round Pick??

Edit: Also included in the deal: _they might as well ask for Wrigley Field and the Sears Tower as well, and the Lakers could always throw in Paris Hilton_


----------



## DaBullz

mgolding said:


> If you read my post before that I mentioned that they are the only team to have won a championship since I have been alive without a superstar. So if you want to push for the 1 in 23 year championship then be my guest, Im a fan of the 22 out of 23 side of things. So I will re-iterate, championships (in the vast majority of cases), get won by SUPERSTARS
> 
> Here's little list of of every team that has won a championship since Ive been alive.
> ----- Post Birth Champs -----
> SAS Duncan
> MIA Shaq and Wade
> DET 1/23
> LAL Kobe and Shaq
> CHI Jordan and Pippen
> HOU Hakeen
> DET Thomas
> LAL Magic and Kareem
> BOS Bird


Sheed is a superstar. Ben Wallace in his prime was a superstar, one of the top very small handful of defensive players. 

I don't buy the 1/23 at all.


----------



## Baklash

DaBullz said:


> Sheed is a superstar. Ben Wallace in his prime was a superstar, one of the top very small handful of defensive players.
> 
> I don't buy the 1/23 at all.


I think you forgot to say was for Sheed too.  No way is he a superstar now. Maybe an all-star, but no way is he a superstar now.


----------



## TripleDouble

Amareca said:


> When will people realize that Ben Gordon is nothing more than a tweener, career 6th man?


Perhaps when he starts for the majority of a season and scores over 21 points per game on 45% shooting... oh wait, that's already happened.


----------



## Snake

bullybullz said:


> _One report had the Lakers hoping to acquire Ben Wallace, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng and the Bulls' top pick (No. 9) in the draft for Bryant_
> 
> http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=rotowire-oberyanthicagoinisut&prov=rotowire&type=fantasy
> 
> OK, the first one I was exaggerating but this one I am not. This trade would be horrible for the Bulls. We give up 3/5 of our starting line-up for Kobe. This trade benefits the Lakers a lot more than the Bulls.
> 
> Look at the Lakers line-up
> 
> PG #9 Pick
> SG Ben Gordon
> SF Luol Deng
> PF Lamar Odom
> C Ben Wallace
> 
> One could make a case that the Lakers starting line-up would be better than last year's (With Kobe).
> 
> While the Bulls become real thin in the frontcourt and become worse as a team overall. We don't even get to keep our pick.
> 
> PG Kirk Hinrich
> SG Kobe Bryant
> SF Andres Nocioni
> PF Tyrus Thomas
> C Free Agency?? 2nd Round Pick??
> 
> Edit: Also included in the deal: _they might as well ask for Wrigley Field and the Sears Tower as well, and the Lakers could always throw in Paris Hilton_


This is what I would call gutting the team for Kobe. No way we do it. Hopefully this is the ridiculous trade the Lakers propose first, then we counter, and so on...

T Shock posted a few pages back the trades for AI, TMac, and Shaq. None of them got near this.


----------



## Baklash

There is also no way Kobe would allow that trade either... That proposed Bulls team would be no better then the current Lakers roster IMO. Unless the Bulls have a plan to somehow trade Duhon away to save money and then go out and sign a big free agent, Paxson can't be serious on trading Deng in the deal.

I'm fine for the deal if it's Gordon, Wallace, the #9 pick, and fillers to make the salaries match, for Kobe and the #19, as well as possibly Evans thrown in.


----------



## DaBullz

ace20004u said:


> It's an exciting time to be a Bulls fan right now, thats for sure. First off, just to clarify, Kobe's list of teams is Phx, Ny, & Chicago. I have to believe that Chicago is the only team on that list highlighted, underlined, and circled. LA won't deal with Phx because they are a conference rival (according to ESPN's Ric Bucher), NY doesn't have the talent (same source) and the Bulls are clear frontrunners. Bucher also said he expects a deal to be done before the draft. I think a deal, in principle, may be agreed to before the draft but because of S&T rules, and we will need to S&T Brown or Nocioni unless we deal Wallace or half the team, but it won't be consumated till 07/01. Of course Noc or Brown would have to agree to a sign & trade, I can't imagine PJ turning down a big payday but don't CBA rules say he has to be signed for a minimum of 3 years in a S&T? If so, I can't imagine LA overpaying Brown for 3 years. Noc would be ideal but there is a rumor that he wants to return to his Spanish team too. Still, the money he would make in a s&T would be slightly inflated and hopefully would make Noc reconsider.
> 
> The Bulls aren't dealing Deng, he is always at the Berto and guys that work that hard are rare and set the tone for a team. I am surprised to hear so many people eager to give up both Gordon & Deng for Kobe, it just isn't going to happen IMO.
> 
> Truth is, the deal I see most likely is a resigned Noc, Gordon, #9 pick (signed), Sweetney and fodder for Kobe. LA isn't in a position to demand much more than that and if the Bulls had to give up much more than that Kobe probably wouldn't want the trade. An alternate possibility would be trading Wallace & Gordon for Kobe & Brown or Bynum (though he doesn't suppossedly get along with Kobe). Still, the Bulls are in the drivers seat here if they can keep LA from being interested in in one of IT's fevered pitches. Suppossedly NY is willing to part with Lee, Crawford, Frye & their draft picks for Kobe, thats a HUGE offer and one LA would probably hold up to a microscope with the deal we proposed. I don't think Crawford would go to LA in a deal though as he and Kobe are friends and Kobe probably wants to play with him & Curry, that and NY's market size prestige of the Garden is probably the only reason NY is on his list.
> 
> Oh and btw, we can't sign & trade BOTH Noc & Brown in the same deal FWIW.
> 
> ACE


*76. Can a free agent be signed and immediately traded?
*
Under no circumstances can a team sign and then trade another team's free agent. But there is a rule that allows teams to re-sign their own free agents for trading purposes, called the sign-and-trade rule. Under the sign-and-trade rule, the player is re-signed and immediately traded to another team. This is done by adding a clause to the contract which stipulates that the contract is invalid if the player's rights are not traded to the specific team within 48 hours. 
A sign-and-trade deal can be made even with players who have been renounced, but cannot be made when the player is signed using the Mid-Level, Bi-Annual or Disabled Player exceptions. *Sign-and-trade contracts must be for three years or longer, but only the first season of the contract must be guaranteed. * The three year minimum (even though the last two seasons may be non-guaranteed) ensures that the new team will not acquire Bird rights to the player any sooner than if they had signed him directly, because if they want to give him a new contract using Bird rights then they would have to waive him first, which resets the Bird clock.


One complication with sign-and-trade deals is that the signed player can immediately become a BYC player (see question number 73 for more information on BYC), so the player's BYC value must be used when determining whether the trade is allowed.


If a sign-and-trade contract contains a signing bonus, then either team can pay it. By default the team that signs the player pays the signing bonus (as with any other contract), but since a sign-and-trade is in essence a contract with the receiving team, the teams can agree that the receiving team will pay it. However, any portion that is paid by the signing team counts toward the $3 million limit for cash included in a trade (which in effect limits the portion of a signing bonus that can be paid by the signing team to $3 million).


If a sign-and-trade contract contains a trade bonus, then the bonus is not earned upon the trade that accompanies the signing, but rather on the first subsequent trade.



See question number 80 for more information on how long a team must wait after signing a contract before they can trade a player.


----------



## TripleDouble

DaBullz said:


> Sheed is a superstar. Ben Wallace in his prime was a superstar, one of the top very small handful of defensive players.
> 
> I don't buy the 1/23 at all.


Define superstar. Because if Sheed is a superstar by your definition, I think your definition is significantly different than most.

edit: regardless of how you do define superstar, all those players were top ten players in the league. Do you think Rasheed Wallace has ever been a top ten player?


----------



## DaBullz

Baklash said:


> I think you forgot to say was for Sheed too.  No way is he a superstar now. Maybe an all-star, but no way is he a superstar now.


Starting with his rookie season, his team's records:
1996-97 49-33
1997-98 46-36
1998-99 35-15 
1999-00 59-23
2000-01 50-32
2001-02 49-33
2002-03 50-32
2003-04 41-41 (played 45 games with Portland)
2003-04 54-28 (played 22 games with Detroit)
2004-05 54-28 
2005-06 64-18
2006-07 53-29

Darned impressive. He was THE man in Portland, and was a steal for Detroit when they got him.


----------



## DaBullz

TripleDouble said:


> Define superstar. Because if Sheed is a superstar by your definition, I think your definition is significantly different than most.
> 
> edit: regardless of how you do define superstar, all those players were top ten players in the league. Do you think Rasheed Wallace has ever been a top ten player?


Yes, indeed. He was THE star player on many teams that lost in the conference finals in both conferences (which is no small achievement). He was an all-star last season (before the current season).


----------



## Baklash

DaBullz said:


> Starting with his rookie season, his team's records:
> 1996-97 49-33
> 1997-98 46-36
> 1998-99 35-15
> 1999-00 59-23
> 2000-01 50-32
> 2001-02 49-33
> 2002-03 50-32
> 2003-04 41-41 (played 45 games with Portland)
> 2003-04 54-28 (played 22 games with Detroit)
> 2004-05 54-28
> 2005-06 64-18
> 2006-07 53-29
> 
> Darned impressive. He was THE man in Portland, and was a steal for Detroit when they got him.


Right, I agreed he was close to it in Portland, but no way was he a Superstar in Detroit. He was a borderline all-star playing with a bunch of other great players in Detroit. I'll give you he was a superstar when he was in Portland though.


----------



## TripleDouble

DaBullz said:


> Starting with his rookie season, his team's records:
> 1996-97 49-33
> 1997-98 46-36
> 1998-99 35-15
> 1999-00 59-23
> 2000-01 50-32
> 2001-02 49-33
> 2002-03 50-32
> 2003-04 41-41 (played 45 games with Portland)
> 2003-04 54-28 (played 22 games with Detroit)
> 2004-05 54-28
> 2005-06 64-18
> 2006-07 53-29
> 
> Darned impressive. He was THE man in Portland, and was a steal for Detroit when they got him.



'The man' to the tune of 12.8 points per game during their best season? 

I could list the records of the teams Robert Horry has been on and they would be more impressive then Sheed's teams. Is Horry a bigger superstar?


----------



## Baklash

TripleDouble said:


> 'The man' to the tune of 12.8 points per game during their best season?
> 
> I could list the records of the teams Robert Horry has been on and they would be more impressive then Sheed's teams. Is Horry a bigger superstar?


He averaged 16.4 during their best season actually. Of course now after looking at these stats... there is no way he was ever a superstar. An all-star? Yes. Superstar? No. =\

That's the end of my rant. I'll get back on topic now.


----------



## DaBullz

TripleDouble said:


> 'The man' to the tune of 12.8 points per game during their best season?
> 
> I could list the records of the teams Robert Horry has been on and they would be more impressive then Sheed's teams. Is Horry a bigger superstar?


Horry didn't play 37 minutes a game (but one season), nor has he been an all-star, nor was he his team's best player, nor did he lead his team in any statistical category.

Sheed's statistics last for last season aren't much different than when he was leading scorer on those deep and talented Blazers teams back in the 90s. Detroit is quite talented right now, too.


----------



## TripleDouble

Baklash said:


> He averaged 16.4 during their best season actually.


I was counting the strike shortened season as their best because they finished in first place whereas the season you're talking about (1999-2000) they were in second place. But you're right in that they had a better winning percentage in 1999-2000 by 2 percentage points.


----------



## Bulls42

In a potential Kobe Bryant trade, it is a one-team negotiation, as the Knicks are talking about offering Frye, Lee and Crawford.
We would need to put up very little of our roster/draft picks to beat that (Gordon/Noce/#9/filler).


----------



## bullybullz

Baklash said:


> He averaged 16.4 during their best season actually. Of course now after looking at these stats... there is no way he was ever a superstar. An all-star? Yes. Superstar? No. =\
> 
> That's the end of my rant. I'll get back on topic now.


The reason Sheed didn't average a lot of points was because Portland at that time had a bunch of scorers in Damon Stoudamire, Steve Smith, Scottie Pippen, Bonzi Wells and others. 

I'm sure Sheed could've scored 20-27 points if he really wanted to but he sacrificed his points for the team.


----------



## DaBullz

Baklash said:


> He averaged 16.4 during their best season actually. Of course now after looking at these stats... there is no way he was ever a superstar. An all-star? Yes. Superstar? No. =\
> 
> That's the end of my rant. I'll get back on topic now.


It's quite impressive when a superstar defers to his teammates and makes the whole team better. His value shows up in the win/loss records (as well as him leading his team statistically), and 4 straight conference finals (one championship).

The year after he left Porland, they won 27 games.


----------



## Baklash

TripleDouble said:


> I was counting the strike shortened season as their best because they finished in first place whereas the season you're talking about (1999-2000) they were in second place. But you're right in that they had a better winning percentage in 1999-2000 by 2 percentage points.


Ah, now I see where you are coming from. I wasn't going by percentage points though. Was just going by how close they were to the Finals. :biggrin:


----------



## DaBullz

bullybullz said:


> The reason Sheed didn't average a lot of points was because Portland at that time had a bunch of scorers in Damon Stoudamire, Steve Smith, Scottie Pippen, Bonzi Wells and others.
> 
> I'm sure Sheed could've scored 20-27 points if he really wanted to but he sacrificed his points for the team.


+1


----------



## bullybullz

DaBullz said:


> It's quite impressive when a superstar defers to his teammates and makes the whole team better. His value shows up in the win/loss records (as well as him leading his team statistically), and 4 straight conference finals (one championship).
> 
> *The year after he left Porland, they won 27 games*.


sorry, bullybullz, site policy. don't worry about this at all. - KJ

Can you tell me the policy?? Please


----------



## Baklash

Bulls42 said:


> In a potential Kobe Bryant trade, it is a one-team negotiation, as the Knicks are talking about offering Frye, Lee and Crawford.
> We would need to put up very little of our roster/draft picks to beat that (Gordon/Noce/#9/filler).


Again, Wallace HAS to be included unless by some miracle the Bulls do something to magically make it so other salaries all match up with Kobe.

I don't think a Gordon/Wallace package with the #9 pick and fillers is out of the question, if that's the only competition the Bulls have.


----------



## DaBullz

bullybullz said:


> sorry, bullybullz, site policy. don't worry about this at all. - KJ


LOL at the edit, heh.

In any case, this is the Sheed that blocked 5 shots in game 3 IN Chicago and 7 in game 1 against Cleveland. 

WOW.


----------



## Bulls42

Miracle where Wallace isn't included (aka filler on top of Gordon/Nocioni/#9 backbone):
Duhon, re-signed Brown, Victor, Sweetney, FA Lakers want signed by Bulls, etc
U get my drift. Won't be easy, but not impossible


----------



## DaBullz

Baklash said:


> Again, Wallace HAS to be included unless by some miracle the Bulls do something to magically make it so other salaries all match up with Kobe.
> 
> I don't think a Gordon/Wallace package with the #9 pick and fillers is out of the question, if that's the only competition the Bulls have.


The bulls can agree in principle to a deal before the draft and then S&T PJ Brown and give LA virtually any other combination of players needed to satisfy them in a deal.


----------



## Baklash

DaBullz said:


> The bulls can agree in principle to a deal before the draft and then S&T PJ Brown and give LA virtually any other combination of players needed to satisfy them in a deal.


Wouldn't the Bulls need PJ though to agree? I'm glad there is a scenario where we don't need to get rid of him... but I have a feeling Paxson will want to move him anyways if we did get Kobe. I'm not sure what options we'd have as to fill the spot for Wallace. My guess would be Magloire


----------



## ViciousFlogging

Rasheed had and probably still has superstar talent. The further he's drifted from the basket, the less of a star he's been. On those Portland teams he was unstoppable on the block, and he's always been a magnificent athlete for his size, plus he's a very, very smart player (except for when he falls too in love with the 3 or gets himself ejected). He's not a "carry my team to victory" kind of personality, which is why he fit so well with Detroit, and maybe partly explains why those Blazer teams couldn't quite get it done.


----------



## bullybullz

ViciousFlogging said:


> Rasheed had and probably still has superstar talent. The further he's drifted from the basket, the less of a star he's been. On those Portland teams he was unstoppable on the block, and he's always been a magnificent athlete for his size, plus he's a very, very smart player (except for when he falls too in love with the 3 or gets himself ejected). He's not a "carry my team to victory" kind of personality, which is why he fit so well with Detroit, and maybe partly explains why those Blazer teams couldn't quite get it done.


Or maybe because they had to go up against Kobe and Shaq...


----------



## DaBullz

Baklash said:


> Wouldn't the Bulls need PJ though to agree? I'm glad there is a scenario where we don't need to get rid of him... but I have a feeling Paxson will want to move him anyways if we did get Kobe. I'm not sure what options we'd have as to fill the spot for Wallace. My guess would be Magloire


Why on earth would PJ Brown refuse a one year contract for ~$8M (or even up to 120% of his $8M salary)? All he is to the Lakers is an expiring contract after one year. If he wants to play, they'll let him suit up. If he doesn't, he can sit at home and not play like Tim Thomas did for the Bulls. Next summer, the Lakers would be $25M under the cap.

Bulls need to come up with $14.6M in salaries to satisfy the CBA in a deal for Kobe.

$9.6M of that could come from PJ's 120% salary (with no S&T/BYC penalty). Gordon's salary is $4.8M, so we're about .2M short. The #9 pick, signed, is another $1.7M.


----------



## Baklash

DaBullz said:


> Why on earth would PJ Brown refuse a one year contract for ~$8M (or even up to 120% of his $8M salary)? All he is to the Lakers is an expiring contract after one year. If he wants to play, they'll let him suit up. If he doesn't, he can sit at home and not play like Tim Thomas did for the Bulls. Next summer, the Lakers would be $25M under the cap.


Gotcha.


----------



## Bulls42

PJ sitting at home for a while, Lakers buying him out, then PJ rejoining the Bulls during the season would be ideal.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

bullybullz said:


> Or maybe because they had to go up against Kobe and Shaq...


That didn't help, but they did have a 15-pt lead in game 7 against the Lakers and couldn't close the deal.

I just meant that Sheed was the kind of player who could put you in position to win the game, but didn't always seem comfortable being the go-to guy at the end. That Blazers team didn't have one like Billups on Detroit.


----------



## step

> PJ sitting at home for a while, Lakers buying him out, then PJ rejoining the Bulls during the season would be ideal.


Negative, he can't rejoin the team the same season. He would be free to go join the Spurs or the Heat though.


----------



## narek

step said:


> Negative, he can't rejoin the team the same season. He would be free to go join the Spurs or the Heat though.


He can, he has to wait a month. That was the scenario in the AD part of the Curry trade to Chicago. AD couldn't be traded, but he could come back after being cut. Zeke reneged on that informal agreement - you can't have a binding agreement on that since the league forbids those agreements. Not that it isn't done, it just has to look good.


----------



## step

> He can, he has to wait a month. That was the scenario in the AD part of the Curry trade to Chicago. AD couldn't be traded, but he could come back after being cut. Zeke reneged on that informal agreement - you can't have a binding agreement on that since the league forbids those agreements. Not that it isn't done, it just has to look good.


I believe they changed that in the CBA negotiations as everyone chucked a spack at Gary Payton and the Celtics. Pretty sure it's now till the end of the season or after July 1st that a traded player who was waived can return to their previous team.


----------



## Ron Cey

truebluefan said:


> Dont have the link, but NY post says offer on the table.
> 
> Lee, Frye, crawford for kobe.


No offense to the Lakers, but if they deal with the Knicks then they are crazy. You don't trade Kobe for a collection of role players. Period. 

You have to get at least one legitimate allstar caliber player in return, plus some other young assets of value. 

That offer there is just a joke. Crawford has proven to be a decent NBA player. Starting quality. Lee is an exceptional role player. But that is what he is, a role player. And Frye was exposed as a less significant role player than either Crawford or Lee. 

Thats just insanity. In fact, I can't envision a single combination of players from the Knicks that I'd ever consider, let alone accept, for Kobe Bryant.


----------



## HKF

Ron Cey said:


> No offense to the Lakers, but if they deal with the Knicks then they are crazy. You don't trade Kobe for a collection of role players. Period.
> 
> You have to get at least one legitimate allstar caliber player in return, plus some other young assets of value.
> 
> That offer there is just a joke. Crawford has proven to be a decent NBA player. Starting quality. Lee is an exceptional role player. But that is what he is, a role player. And Frye was exposed as a less significant role player than either Crawford or Lee.
> 
> Thats just insanity. In fact, I can't envision a single combination of players from the Knicks that I'd ever consider, let alone accept, for Kobe Bryant.


The Lakers got Brian Grant (for the contract), Caron Butler and Lamar Odom, plus a future pick for Shaq. That wasn't a great deal either, but that's what they got.

No matter what you say, Lee is at least as good as Butler was (at the time) and Odom still has never even made an all-star game. Superstars get traded for junk in the NBA, because it's also about salaries. It will be no different here. People seem to want to devalue the Knicks players for some reason but with Kobe's no-trade clause, you either sit on him and risk losing him for nothing or you move him for some young pieces.


----------



## narek

HKF said:


> The Lakers got Brian Grant (for the contract), Caron Butler and Lamar Odom, plus a future pick for Shaq. That wasn't a great deal either, but that's what they got.
> 
> No matter what you say, Lee is at least as good as Butler was (at the time) and Odom still has never even made an all-star game. Superstars get traded for junk in the NBA, because it's also about salaries. It will be no different here. People seem to want to devalue the Knicks players for some reason but with Kobe's no-trade clause, you either sit on him and risk losing him for nothing or you move him for some young pieces.


Shaq was a free agent. He was leaving the Lakers no matter what by the time it got to this point.


----------



## Ron Cey

HKF said:


> The Lakers got Brian Grant (for the contract), Caron Butler and Lamar Odom, plus a future pick for Shaq. That wasn't a great deal either, but that's what they got.
> 
> No matter what you say, Lee is at least as good as Butler was (at the time) and Odom still has never even made an all-star game. Superstars get traded for junk in the NBA, because it's also about salaries. It will be no different here. People seem to want to devalue the Knicks players for some reason but with Kobe's no-trade clause, you either sit on him and risk losing him for nothing or you move him for some young pieces.


What were the competing offers for Shaq?

The difference here is that the Knicks have a competing team with more, and superior, young talent to offer. 

And the Lakers don't really risk "losing Kobe for nothing." He's under contract for 2 more full seasons. That gives them 2 full years to change his mind and improve the team. 2 years of Kobe is better than no more years of Kobe and some role players in return. Moreover, none of those players have marketable name recognition. 

And you misunderstand me about Lee. I think Lee is an excellent young talent that any team would love to have. But he's a role-player. Hes a rebounder and energy scorer. His offense has limited diversity and, despite his excellent rebounding, he's frankly not anything special as a defender (.8 steals and .4 blocks per game with below average ability to man-defend in the interior). 

As for Odom, when he was traded for Shaq his value at the time dwarfed any of those players the Knicks are offering up. He was instrumental in turning around a horrid Miami team - Wade was a rookie that season and though he played very well, especially in the playoffs, that was Odom's team - and making the playoffs.

The perception at the time was that he had broken out and gotten over his character issues. He went for 17, 10, 4, 1 and 1 that season and it was widely believed he's pair excellently with Kobe because of his distributing ability. We know now that it didn't work out that great. But at the time, Odom was hot.

That Knicks offer is **** for the likes of Bryant and easily trumped by Chicago while still keeping the Bulls somewhat intact post trade.


----------



## HKF

narek said:


> Shaq was a free agent. He was leaving the Lakers no matter what by the time it got to this point.


Not true. Shaq had an opt out after a year if he chose to exercise it, but he would have never done that without an extension in place. The man was getting paid 30 million with the Lakers. Who in FA could give him a 5 year/100 million dollar deal unless they had his bird rights (like Miami a few years ago)?

Kobe is in the same position, except he has a no-trade clause that places him only where he wants to go. If Chicago says no dice and Phoenix says no dice, well either you trade him to New York or you keep him. Now if you keep him and they stink (I mean another year where injuries decimate the team), then you go into the year with a lame duck Kobe who can opt out. 

The Lakers are in a horrible bargaining position and stand poised to get screwed in a deal again. Then again that has happened to many teams in the past. If it happens they'll survive. Laker fans are upset, but in truth their team has been able to screw other franchises in the past to be able to get players like Wilt, Kareem, Shaq and Kobe. 

So eventually it all evens out.


----------



## HKF

Ron Cey said:


> What were the competing offers for Shaq?
> 
> The difference here is that the Knicks have a competing team with more, and superior, young talent to offer.
> 
> And the Lakers don't really risk "losing Kobe for nothing." He's under contract for 2 more full seasons. That gives them 2 full years to change his mind and improve the team. 2 years of Kobe is better than no more years of Kobe and some role players in return. Moreover, none of those players have marketable name recognition.
> 
> And you misunderstand me about Lee. I think Lee is an excellent young talent that any team would love to have. But he's a role-player. Hes a rebounder and energy scorer. His offense has limited diversity and, despite his excellent rebounding, he's frankly not anything special as a defender (.8 steals and .4 blocks per game with below average ability to man-defend in the interior).
> 
> As for Odom, when he was traded for Shaq his value at the time dwarfed any of those players the Knicks are offering up. He was instrumental in turning around a horrid Miami team - Wade was a rookie that season and though he played very well, especially in the playoffs, that was Odom's team - and making the playoffs.
> 
> The perception at the time was that he had broken out and gotten over his character issues. He went for 17, 10, 4, 1 and 1 that season and it was widely believed he's pair excellently with Kobe because of his distributing ability. We know now that it didn't work out that great. But at the time, Odom was hot.
> 
> That Knicks offer is **** for the likes of Bryant and easily trumped by Chicago while still keeping the Bulls somewhat intact post trade.


There weren't many competing offers for Shaq because Shaq picked where he wanted to go (i.e. warm weather city, young stud in Wade). I honestly think the Heat were competing against themselves because the Lakers were not trading him within the conference.

Same thing is happening here. Frankly I think Paxson is too afraid to trade any of his core guys period. That's why I think the Knicks are ultimately the team that lands Kobe. Until he makes a trade that involves Gordon, Deng, Hinrich, Thabo, Duhon or Tyrus, I'll continue to believe he is scared to make a deal involving them because deep down he believes that group can win an NBA title (they can't). 

Lakers could hold on to Kobe, but then again why would you hold onto a disgruntled player. If for example he gets injured, why would he rush back to save a sinking ship if he wants out. That's what I'm saying. Lee is still better than an injury prone Caron Butler at the same stage in their careers. There are like eight double double guys in the whole league. While Crawford, Lee and Frye aren't great by any stretch of the imagination, talent wise they are right on par with Butler and Odom. 

Neither player did much until they were given a superstar player to play with (i.e. Wade, Kobe and for Butler, Arenas). I mean these guys are the definition of role players and neither guy should be anything more than a third option. I think people are overinflating their worth. Shaq was traded for role players. It's taken Butler 5 years to put together an all-star season and he's 27 now. Odom has never done it and Grant was done by that point, just a contract (with three years left no less). 

Shaq was traded for crud.


----------



## Salvaged Ship

I just can't see Bryant being traded to the Bulls. Lakers will want (and need) far too much, and we will have to gut the team. Is Wallace and Gordon subtract Bryant going to make the Lakers better? Younger? No way.

I can see Bryant traded for another star. Maybe for Garnett? I just can't see him to the Bulls.


----------



## MikeDC

HKF said:


> There weren't many competing offers for Shaq because Shaq picked where he wanted to go (i.e. warm weather city, young stud in Wade). I honestly think the Heat were competing against themselves because the Lakers were not trading him within the conference.
> 
> Same thing is happening here. Frankly I think Paxson is too afraid to trade any of his core guys period. That's why I think the Knicks are ultimately the team that lands Kobe. Until he makes a trade that involves Gordon, Deng, Hinrich, Thabo, Duhon or Tyrus, I'll continue to believe he is scared to make a deal involving them because deep down he believes that group can win an NBA title (they can't).


You could be right about this, but it could also simply be Pax believing that he doesn't win a title with Kobe if he has to give up too many guys. Just like the Lakers couldn't. And unlike a lot of folks, I don't think Kobe is a guy with 6 or 7 All-NBA years left in the tank. So if you get him, you need to be able to do something with him pretty soon.

I think that'll be extremely hard for the Bulls.



> Lakers could hold on to Kobe, but then again why would you hold onto a disgruntled player. If for example he gets injured, why would he rush back to save a sinking ship if he wants out. That's what I'm saying.


It all depends on to what extremes Kobe is willing to go to be unpleasant, and to what extremes the Lakes are willing to go to satisfy him. If they effectively make him GM and stat wheeling and deeling for immediate help, I could see him being more or less happy.

Of course, if they were gonna do that, wouldn't they have done it over the last couple years? The real problem, it seems to me, is the moves they make just didn't pay off worth a damn.


----------



## HKF

MikeDC said:


> You could be right about this, but it could also simply be Pax believing that he doesn't win a title with Kobe if he has to give up too many guys. Just like the Lakers couldn't. And unlike a lot of folks, I don't think Kobe is a guy with 6 or 7 All-NBA years left in the tank. So if you get him, you need to be able to do something with him pretty soon.
> 
> I think that'll be extremely hard for the Bulls.


And this is why I feel the Knicks are primed to get him because they have no qualms about acquiring talent even if it leaves them with a payroll of 120 million dollars.

Unlike the other NBA teams that operate on somewhat efficient budget, due to the sponsorships and MSG network, the Knicks will be caking as long as Cablevision is a viable entity. Kobe may not have 6-7 years left, but I do think he's got 4-5 simply because he takes care of himself like only few before him. Wouldn't shock me to see him pull a Stockton and play 8 more years of high quality basketball even if it's not all NBA.





> It all depends on to what extremes Kobe is willing to go to be unpleasant, and to what extremes the Lakes are willing to go to satisfy him. If they effectively make him GM and stat wheeling and deeling for immediate help, I could see him being more or less happy.
> 
> Of course, if they were gonna do that, wouldn't they have done it over the last couple years? The real problem, it seems to me, is the moves they make just didn't pay off worth a damn.


I don't think he would stop playing hard or anything else. However that no-trade clause has effectively made Kobe the GM. If you don't trade him and lose him for nothing, you're going to start over with cap room during the summer of '09 when there are tons of FA's available. The only problem is, a lot of them will be near 30 or approaching 30 and you're left with complete trash around them. It's tough to rebuild in the NBA when you don't have much young talent and cap room.


----------



## DaBullz

When it's all said and done, the Knicks offer may well be the best offer and situation from the Lakers' perspective.

Cey may be right about the Bulls having the pieces to trump a Knicks offer, but we had the pieces to get Gasol and didn't. We may not get Kobe for the same reason.


----------



## MikeDC

I agree about the Knicks. Most folks act as if Thomas is irresponsible for their budget, but as far as I can tell he, like every other GM, is operating within the rules he's been given, and the rules for the Knicks are different than the rules for most everyone else. 

As far as Kobe, though, it seems to me he's doing everything in his power to make things uncomfortable for the Lakers and bring things to a head. He sure doesn't seem to want to wait two years, which gives the Lakers some leverage, if only temporary. From the Lakers' perspective, they risk losing him for nothing, but business wise, wouldn't you rather have two years of Kobe and then start over instead of starting over now with David Lee and Jamal Crawford?

If I'm the Lakers, I'd slow things to a crawl. At best, the Knicks could take back a guy like Radmanovic too, and allow the Lakers a total blank slate in two years as far as salary obligations. But ok, if that's the case, why not hang onto him for this year?


----------



## HKF

It all depends on how many picks the Knicks give them. If the Knicks give them two first round picks along with Kobe, wouldn't you have to take it given the Knicks recent bad history. Yeah you lose Kobe, but you get young players, cap room and some picks.

Now if your front office can't identify talented young players, well then you shouldn't have let Jerry West leave.


----------



## MikeDC

HKF said:


> It all depends on how many picks the Knicks give them. If the Knicks give them two first round picks along with Kobe, wouldn't you have to take it given the Knicks recent bad history. Yeah you lose Kobe, but you get young players, cap room and some picks.


Would you expect the Knicks' bad history to continue with Kobe? I'd be somewhat valuable, but I wouldn't be expecting anything in the lottery.



> Now if your front office can't identify talented young players, well then you shouldn't have let Jerry West leave.


Pretty much.


----------



## Ron Cey

DaBullz said:


> When it's all said and done, the Knicks offer may well be the best offer and situation from the Lakers' perspective.
> 
> Cey may be right about the Bulls having the pieces to trump a Knicks offer, but we had the pieces to get Gasol and didn't. We may not get Kobe for the same reason.


Oh, I definitely agree with all of that. 

A starving man might prefer a cheeseburger, but he'll eat crackers.


----------



## HKF

MikeDC said:


> Would you expect the Knicks' bad history to continue with Kobe? I'd be somewhat valuable, but I wouldn't be expecting anything in the lottery.
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty much.


Well he could always get hurt. I mean there are a lot of miles on him. If that happened people would be laughing at the Knicks for years. Nothing is really guaranteed. As good as Duncan and Shaq have been, it's not like they haven't suffered from injuries which prevented their teams from winning. There's a 50/50 shot that whoever trades for Kobe could fail, simply because you have to gut the team (and match salaries). I know that's not something to give your fans hope with, but in truth, if Kobe got hurt and the Lakers couldn't move him, shoot it would be worse.


----------



## MikeDC

I'd say there's a greater than 50/50 shot the Kobe getting team fails.

At least in basketball terms. From that perspective, in fact, it really makes the Knicks the only game in town because it's a no lose from a non-basketball perspective.

The Suns get him, but they're 50/50 to win a title, perhaps, even with him. And if they don't win a title, they've incurred the luxury tax for what exactly? From their perspective, I'm pretty sure that's a loss.

The Bulls would see it pretty similarly, I think. They're no sure thing with Kobe, given what they'd have to give up, and the financial risks seem real to them. Especially iff you contrast it with giving up a guy who might be a marketing boon like Yi.

I guess I don't see Kobe being a huge marketing boom for us or the Suns. Lots of folks are turned off by Kobe.

The Knicks are an entirely different story. Even if he doesn't win them a title, he's puts them in the big-time. And for some reason, I think he'd be embraced there where he wouldn't be here. Knicks fans want a superstar. So I think it'd pretty much be a no-lose for them.


----------



## ace20004u

I don't think Pax is affraid to trade Gordon, especially given the tone of some of the articles I have read lately claiming that extending Gordon will be dificult and that Gordon feels he should have cemented being a starter by now. In fact, it seemed to me before the Kobe situation that Pax was probably going to deal Gordon this offseason. People can point to the Gasol trade and say Pax is affraid to give up his players, I rather think he is affraid to give them up IN THE WRONG DEAL. And giving up both Deng & Gordon for Gasol would have been the wrong deal IMO.

Ny does have a nice package to offer, Lee was playing very welll last season, so what if he is a role player, he is a good one who was outrebounding Tim Duncan most of the year. His defense isn't great but he always hustles and tries, is a double double guy, and shoots a pretty high percentage. Lets not forget he is relatively young too. Frye is better than we have seen so far, he is still putting it together, I still think at the end of the day he will be a Duncan lite player. I don't think Crawford will go to LA as Kobe & JC are good friends and I am pretty sure Kobe would want to play with Crawford & Curry. I don't recall what draft picks NY has but I think they have two like 15th & 27th or something, that would be a big incentive to LA as well. Is what they have to offer better than Gordon, Noce & #9? I don't know. You have to think they would love having a flashy Gordon playing high tempo ball in LA. Of course Lee & Frye would give them some good interior players too. It really just depends on what LA likes best, one thing is for sure, they won't get fair value for Kobe in this situation.

Oh, and I don't see how a deal gets done before the draft unless it is in principal. Unless we gut the team or LA wants to take back all of our crap players and Gordon nothing can get done from a salary persepcteive, we need Noc or Brown to agree to a s&T.

ACE


----------



## Ron Cey

> Ny does have a nice package to offer, Lee was playing very welll last season, so what if he is a role player, he is a good one who was outrebounding Tim Duncan most of the year. His defense isn't great but he always hustles and tries, is a double double guy, and shoots a pretty high percentage.


For the likes of Kobe Bryant, the Knicks package is sewage. David Lee hustles and tries? You gonna sell that to the Lakers' fans? They aren't going to give a crap about his hustle when they see #24's backside walking out the door.

And Lee doesn't "shoot" at a pretty high percentage. He dunks. He's got no variation on his offensive game at all. His "jumper" efg% on 82games.com is .289. 

Again, I'm not knocking Lee. I really like him. I'd like to see him on the Bulls. But he's the best player in that package. 

And to trade Kobe Bryant and get David Lee in return as the best asset is downright laughable. 



> Frye is better than we have seen so far, he is still putting it together, I still think at the end of the day he will be a Duncan lite player.


Frye regressed significantly from his rookie year to his second. More minutes, 25% less points per game, a huge drop in field goal percentages, less rebounds (and he already sucked as a rebounder). All despite being a complete afterthought in the minds of opposing defenses while they focus on Curry. He's becoming exposed. He's going to end up a decent bench player. 

Zeke should have traded him while he had the chance.


----------



## T.Shock

ace20004u said:


> I don't think Pax is affraid to trade Gordon, especially given the tone of some of the articles I have read lately claiming that extending Gordon will be dificult and that Gordon feels he should have cemented being a starter by now. In fact, it seemed to me before the Kobe situation that Pax was probably going to deal Gordon this offseason. People can point to the Gasol trade and say Pax is affraid to give up his players, I rather think he is affraid to give them up *IN THE WRONG DEAL. And giving up both Deng & Gordon for Gasol would have been the wrong deal IMO.*
> 
> ACE


I think that is the key. Paxson caught a lot of heat for not trading away the Bulls two best players for a post guy who has never won a playoff series, let alone a playoff game, and is five years older than the Bulls best player. I've said all along that I'm not trading Deng, but I'll give up anybody else for a player that has at least played in a conference finals. I'm not trading our best players for a guy who hasn't shown he can lead a team anywhere. Bryant fits the criteria even if it is with Shaq. He almost pulled an upset last year against Phoenix with virtually nothing to work with. Still, I remember Bill Simmons saying that Paxson seems like the type of guy who would rather sit back and wait for the Pacers or T-Wolves to offer KG and Jermaine O'Neal for 30 cents on the dollar. I have no problem with that.


----------



## ace20004u

Lee was a rebounding double double monster last year. I am sure Laker fans won't be happy with anything that LA is going to be able to get back in this situation. But, it is what it is. I doubt they will be doing cartwheels for Gordon & Nocioni either. Lee did dunk for the most part, I guess what I am saying is he had a high fg%, regardless what shots he was taking, he didn't miss them much. And outrebounding Duncan most of the season is no mean feat either.

We disagree on Frye, he definitley regressed last year but I still think he has the potential for greatness.

ACE


----------



## Ron Cey

> Lee was a rebounding double double monster last year.


He was a rebounding monster, to be sure. But scraping in at 10 points per game instead of 9.6 doesn't constitue monstrous double doubles in my opinion. A "double-double" is a pretty arbitrary distinction in my opinion, and carries far more weight than it deserves. 



> I am sure Laker fans won't be happy with anything that LA is going to be able to get back in this situation. But, it is what it is. I doubt they will be doing cartwheels for Gordon & Nocioni either.


Gordon offers flash and scoring punch, which Lakers fans will take to with far greater ease and comfort than D. Lee crashing the weakside boards. And for the "hustle" fans in Los Angeles, if there are any, Nocioni will give them plenty of floor burns and charge calls to cheer for. 



> Lee did dunk for the most part, I guess what I am saying is he had a high fg%, regardless what shots he was taking, he didn't miss them much. And outrebounding Duncan most of the season is no mean feat either.


He's a terrific rebounder. 



> We disagree on Frye, he definitley regressed last year but I still think he has the potential for greatness.


Players with the potential for greatness, especially pre-polished players like Frye, don't suffer massive regressions early in their careers. 

Your opinion is your opinion. But there is nothing objective to support it that I've seen. 

Again, I'm not calling him trash. He's a nice NBA player. But he's a role player. The Lakers are infinitely better off keeping a disgruntled Kobe than they are trading him for a bunch of unmarketable role players.

We aren't talking about trading these guys to Detroit. We are talking about the most image-conscious market in the entire NBA.


----------



## DaBullz

If the lakers think the Knicks package will mean more victories, then the fans will love the team, regardless of who the players are.


----------



## Ron Cey

DaBullz said:


> If the lakers think the Knicks package will mean more victories, then the fans will love the team, regardless of who the players are.


First, that isn't necessarily true. I don't even need to look beyond this board to see that. Increased wins and objectively measurable productivity and progress doesn't necessarily make fans happy if they preferred the player going out. Because they can always just say "if we'd have kept him then we could have done . . . . . and been better off."

Second, if the Lakers think Lee, Frye, and Crawford will mean more victories than Kobe then they deserve whatever happens.


----------



## bre9

The lakers want the two best players on a team if it ain't Lebron, Paul Pierce, Gilbert Arenas. So that will mean the bulls have to give up Ben Gordon and Luol Deng. hopefully Pax is smarter.


----------



## DaBullz

Ron Cey said:


> First, that isn't necessarily true. I even don't need to look beyond this board to see that. Increased wins and objectively measurable productivity and progress doesn't necessarily make fans happy if they preferred the player going out. Because they can always just say "if we'd have kept him then we could have done . . . . . and been better off."
> 
> Second, if the Lakers think Lee, Frye, and Crawford will mean more victories than Kobe then they deserve whatever happens.


The Lakers are a good example of what happens when your talent is consolidated in too few players. Minus Kobe they're pretty awful. It's not a bad thing to have a top-tier player, but it is a bad thing to surround him with poor talent. 

Lee, Frye, and Crawford are likely 3/5ths of their starting rotation. They combined for about 38 PPG, too.

Add in draft picks and the ~$10M in cap relief, and the Lakers are in a good rebuilding situation.


----------



## McBulls

bre9 said:


> The lakers want the two best players on a team if it ain't Lebron, Paul Pierce, Gilbert Arenas. So that will mean the bulls have to give up Ben Gordon and Luol Deng. hopefully Pax is smarter.


You can's always get what you want! But if you try sometimes, you just might find you'll get 1/2 of what you need.

Pick 1 of our stars LA, 'cause that's all you will get from the Bulls. Alternatively, you can fill up on NY "stars" -- which means no stars at all. Finally you could make an incestuous trade with the Clippers that will go over big with your fans... NOT.


----------



## Ron Cey

DaBullz said:


> The Lakers are a good example of what happens when your talent is consolidated in too few players. Minus Kobe they're pretty awful. It's not a bad thing to have a top-tier player, but it is a bad thing to surround him with poor talent.
> 
> Lee, Frye, and Crawford are likely 3/5ths of their starting rotation. They combined for about 38 PPG, too.
> 
> Add in draft picks and the ~$10M in cap relief, and the Lakers are in a good rebuilding situation.


If Kobe were a Bull instead of a Laker, would you support trading him for Crawford, Lee and Frye?


----------



## Damian Necronamous

The Lakers don't *have* to trade Kobe. If he only had one year left on his deal, it would be different. However, he has two. The Lakers can keep him for as long as they'd like over that period and if he really wants to leave, his "list" of teams will certainly expand. They are not in a compromising position where they have to deal him quickly.

If all the Bulls are offering is Gordon, Nocioni and the 9th pick, you can absolutely be sure that the Lakers will hold on to Kobe or go find another team later on down the road. However, unless a third team is involved, that team won't be the Knicks.


----------



## T.Shock

Damian Necronamous said:


> The Lakers don't *have* to trade Kobe. If he only had one year left on his deal, it would be different. However, he has two. The Lakers can keep him for as long as they'd like over that period and if he really wants to leave, his "list" of teams will certainly expand. They are not in a compromising position where they have to deal him quickly.
> 
> If all the Bulls are offering is Gordon, Nocioni and the 9th pick, you can absolutely be sure that the Lakers will hold on to Kobe or go find another team later on down the road. However, unless a third team is involved, that team won't be the Knicks.


I mean I agree, but if Kobe is serious about getting out, he could easily say I'm not playing until you trade me. Fake an injury. Play at half speed. Whatever. See Carter, Vince and Iverson, Allen. Eventually, if Kobe wants out he will be dealt sooner rather than later. The problem is the Lakers can't really improve. They'll have pretty much the same team they had last year unless they can get someone like KG for Odom and the Lakers' less than steller players. I don't think they can.


----------



## Ron Cey

Damian Necronamous said:


> The Lakers don't *have* to trade Kobe. If he only had one year left on his deal, it would be different. However, he has two. The Lakers can keep him for as long as they'd like over that period and if he really wants to leave, his "list" of teams will certainly expand. They are not in a compromising position where they have to deal him quickly.
> 
> If all the Bulls are offering is Gordon, Nocioni and the 9th pick, you can absolutely be sure that the Lakers will hold on to Kobe or go find another team later on down the road. However, unless a third team is involved, that team won't be the Knicks.


I very much agree with the basic concept expressed in your post. 

I'm curious. What do you think the Bulls could, and should from the Bulls' perspective, offer to get Kobe Bryant that still leaves them with an improved team?


----------



## Ron Cey

T.Shock said:


> I mean I agree, but if Kobe is serious about getting out, *he could easily say I'm not playing until you trade me. Fake an injury. Play at half speed.* Whatever. See Carter, Vince and Iverson, Allen. Eventually, if Kobe wants out he will be dealt sooner rather than later. The problem is the Lakers can't really improve. They'll have pretty much the same team they had last year unless they can get someone like KG for Odom and the Lakers' less than steller players. I don't think they can.


I realize what I'm about to type isn't much of an argument, but here goes: I don't think Kobe would do any of those things.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Damian Necronamous said:


> The Lakers don't *have* to trade Kobe. If he only had one year left on his deal, it would be different. However, he has two. The Lakers can keep him for as long as they'd like over that period and if he really wants to leave, his "list" of teams will certainly expand. They are not in a compromising position where they have to deal him quickly.
> 
> If all the Bulls are offering is Gordon, Nocioni and the 9th pick, you can absolutely be sure that the Lakers will hold on to Kobe or go find another team later on down the road. However, unless a third team is involved, that team won't be the Knicks.


One thing you dont do is make a superstar un happy, trust me we went thru a period where nobody wanted to play for the Bulls because of how Bulls management treated Jordan and Pip, Eddie Freaking Jones prayed to God to not play for the Bulls organization. It took about 5 years and the firing of Krause for the Chicago to become one of the NBA's top destinations again. 

The Lakers arent going to win an NBA championship anytime soon even if Kobe stayed in LA forever, Lakers need to rebuild and they need to start rebuilding now.


----------



## ace20004u

Yeah keeping a disgruntled Kobe on the team for another year when he can opt out in 2 years doesn't sound like much of a plan to me. Gordon, Noce & the #9 pick is a fair offer given the circumstances. Laker fans do realize that the Lakers aren't going to get fair value for Kobe at this point, right?

ACE


----------



## ViciousFlogging

Ron Cey said:


> I realize what I'm about to type isn't much of an argument, but here goes: I don't think Kobe would do any of those things.


Me either. I think he's more likely to express his resentment in ways we've already seen from him - namely, either shooting 50 times or 10 times in a game. But I think he has too much pride to dog it blatantly the way Vince Carter did.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

DaBullz said:


> The Lakers are a good example of what happens when your talent is consolidated in too few players. Minus Kobe they're pretty awful. It's not a bad thing to have a top-tier player, but it is a bad thing to surround him with poor talent.
> 
> Lee, Frye, and Crawford are likely 3/5ths of their starting rotation. They combined for about 38 PPG, too.
> 
> Add in draft picks and the ~$10M in cap relief, and the Lakers are in a good rebuilding situation.



Lee, Frye and Crawford are part of a nucleus that can't make the playoffs in the East. I suspect it'll take more than just those guys, a couple mid-lottery picks, and whatever is left on LA's roster to make them a factor in the West. No offense to those players (they're all decent), but I think they'd have trouble getting out of the division cellar if their core was those guys plus Odom/Bynum or whatever.

I think they just keep Kobe and try to mend fences if that's the best offer they get.


----------



## ace20004u

ViciousFlogging said:


> Lee, Frye and Crawford are part of a nucleus that can't make the playoffs in the East. I suspect it'll take more than just those guys, a couple mid-lottery picks, and whatever is left on LA's roster to make them a factor in the West. No offense to those players (they're all decent), but I think they'd have trouble getting out of the division cellar if their core was those guys plus Odom/Bynum or whatever.
> 
> I think they just keep Kobe and try to mend fences if that's the best offer they get.


Do you think an offer of a resigned Noce, Gordon & the #9 pick would be a better offer? Perhaps throwing in a Sweetney, Duhon, or VK for ballast, maybe even adding a future #1, or, I guess if push comes to shove, Thomas?


ACE


----------



## thebizkit69u

Here is what worries me most about the whole Kobe situation, Isiah Thomas will do whatever it takes to get Kobe even if that means getting rid of half his team. Thomas took a risk with going after Curry as hard as he did and it worked out fine, If Isiah can somehow get the Lakers to take some of their high priced trash plus some first round draft picks for Kobe then that’s a great move. 

Now I'm not saying that the Bulls should go all out and trade Gordon, Deng and draft pick for Kobe, but Pax should also think about how tough it will be for the Bulls to advance in the playoffs if they just stay put, do you really think the Bulls would be able to even sniff the NBA Finals if the Bulls have to go thru Miami (Wade), Cavs (LJ) and possibly the Knicks (Kobe+ Curry)?

And say all you want about Eddy Curry but a team consisting of Eddy Curry at Center and Kobe Bryant at the 2 or 3 scares the crap out of me!


----------



## T.Shock

thebizkit69u said:


> Here is what worries me most about the whole Kobe situation, Isiah Thomas will do whatever it takes to get Kobe even if that means getting rid of half his team. Thomas took a risk with going after Curry as hard as he did and it worked out fine, If Isiah can somehow get the Lakers to take some of their high priced trash plus some first round draft picks for Kobe then that’s a great move.
> 
> Now I'm not saying that the Bulls should go all out and trade Gordon, Deng and draft pick for Kobe, but Pax should also think about how tough it will be for the Bulls to advance in the playoffs if they just stay put, do you really think the Bulls would be able to even sniff the NBA Finals if the Bulls have to go thru Miami (Wade), Cavs (LJ) and possibly the Knicks (Kobe+ Curry)?
> 
> And say all you want about Eddy Curry but a team consisting of Eddy Curry at Center and Kobe Bryant at the 2 or 3 scares the crap out of me!


That is because of Kobe, not Curry. Does a team of Vince Carter and Eddy Curry scare you? It shouldn't. Listen I'd be on board with a Kobe trade but Deng has to stay. I've said it once and I'll say it again...

Hinrich
Gordon
P.J. Brown(S&T) 
#9 Pick

is more than fair. If the Lakers would rather have...

Crawford
Lee
Steve Francis
Frye

than our package, ummmm they'll finish last in the West.


----------



## Ron Cey

> Here is what worries me most about the whole Kobe situation, Isiah Thomas will do whatever it takes to get Kobe even if that means getting rid of half his team.


True that. Although I read on realgm today that Zeke has put the untouchable tag on Curry.



> Thomas took a risk with going after Curry as hard as he did and it worked out fine


It did? 56 wins in the last two seasons doesn't constitute "fine" to me.



> If Isiah can somehow get the Lakers to take some of their high priced trash plus some first round draft picks for Kobe then that’s a great move.


No doubt. 



> Now I'm not saying that the Bulls should go all out and trade Gordon, Deng and draft pick for Kobe, but Pax should also think about how tough it will be for the Bulls to advance in the playoffs if they just stay put,


I agree with that too. In fact, I think I wrote in here over the weekend that one of the things Paxson definitely needs to take into consideration is the opportunity cost of not offering enough to get Kobe only to have another team in the East offer a hair more and then face Kobe as a rival when he could have been a Bull.

It definitely needs to be taken into consideration. 



> do you really think the Bulls would be able to even sniff the NBA Finals if the Bulls have to go thru Miami (Wade), Cavs (LJ) and possibly the Knicks (Kobe+ Curry)?


Yes, I do. 



> And say all you want about Eddy Curry but a team consisting of Eddy Curry at Center and Kobe Bryant at the 2 or 3 scares the crap out of me!


Not me. It would be better to not have to deal with it, but it definitely doesn't scare me.


----------



## thebizkit69u

T.Shock said:


> That is because of Kobe, not Curry. Does a team of Vince Carter and Eddy Curry scare you? It shouldn't. Listen I'd be on board with a Kobe trade but Deng has to stay. I've said it once and I'll say it again....


Let me answer that question with a Yes. Curry is very good NBA player and if he ever reaches that potential I would be afraid of Curry if it was just him and 4 other bums. Luckily Curry has not done much against the Bulls but I think that will change.

I agree that Deng needs to stay, I don’t want to trade him I just don’t, BUT hypothetically speaking and its probably impossible due to salary restrictions but if you can trade Deng for Kobe you better pull the damn trigger because if you don’t your just basketball retarded. 




> Hinrich
> Gordon
> P.J. Brown(S&T)
> #9 Pick


No, I would not trade both Hinrich and Gordon, I would trade one of them plus draft pick, Tyrus Thomas and Brown but I just don’t see how getting rid of BOTH Hinrich and Gordon makes us better. Who would be PG? Duhon?


----------



## Ron Cey

thebizkit69u said:


> No, I would not trade both Hinrich and Gordon, I would trade one of them plus draft pick, Tyrus Thomas and Brown but I just don’t see how getting rid of BOTH Hinrich and Gordon makes us better. Who would be PG? Duhon?


I would. 

Sure, Duhon. I'd take Duhon/Kobe/Deng over Hinrich/Gordon/Deng 7 days a week and twice on Sundays. Or Thabo/Kobe/Deng. Or freakin' Andre Barret/Kobe/Deng. 

Kobe, with an acceptable point guard, easily surpasses the value of Hinrich and Gordon combined, in my opinion. 

Wanna hear something else crazy? *In the context of a Kobe trade*, I'd rather trade Hinrich and Gordon together than include Tyrus Thomas with just one of them. 

Hand to god. 

Now fire when ready. :biggrin:


----------



## yodurk

Some interesting points made in this thread that I've seen.

I do believe the Knicks pose a threat in the Kobe sweepstakes, just because of their "do whatever it takes" mentality to get him. Plus, they've been so bad the last couple years that it's really a no-risk situation for them. From the Bulls perspective, we have the rather high risk of screwing up a good situation if Kobe doesn't work out.

The Knicks also could take other bad contracts off the Lakers' hands (not sure how much weight that carries though). Kobe + Kwame + Radmanovic could all be dumped to the Knicks and give the Lakers big financial relief. ON THE OTHER HAND, I look at the Knicks salary situation and they have ZERO expiring salaries. The best they have is Marbury, Malik Rose, and Steve Francis who each have 2 years left. I don't think that gets it done.

Bottom line, it would take every valuable young asset the Knicks have to even come close to a deal: David Lee, Channing Frye, Balkman, and Mardy Collins. I'm not sure the Lakers would value Crawford, to be honest...4 years left on a rather large contract, for a guy who isn't highly regarded. Where's the value in that? 

It would surprise me to see the Knicks land Kobe, but I'm still just a little bit concerned that they might conjure up something.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Ron Cey said:


> It did? 56 wins in the last two seasons doesn't constitute "fine" to me.


What I meant was what he gave up, I think NY is not suffering from the losses of Mike Sweetney, Tim Thomas, and Jermaine Jackson, 2 draft picks one was Tyrus Thomas who is still young and unproven and not giving up the Kevin Durant or Greg Oden draft pick. Overall not a bad trade in terms of what you gave up. 



> Yes, I do.


Well all I know is that the Bulls have problems facing Vince Carter and a guy named Mikki.


----------



## thebizkit69u

Ron Cey said:


> Wanna hear something else crazy? *In the context of a Kobe trade*, I'd rather trade Hinrich and Gordon together than include Tyrus Thomas with just one of them.
> 
> Hand to god.
> 
> Now fire when ready. :biggrin:


No its all good, But I would like to know why you would rather trade both Hinrich and Gordon then one of them plus Thomas.


----------



## DaBullz

Ron Cey said:


> If Kobe were a Bull instead of a Laker, would you support trading him for Crawford, Lee and Frye?


Depends on our roster. Depends on if Kobe demands a trade.


----------



## Ron Cey

thebizkit69u said:


> No its all good, But I would like to know why you would rather trade both Hinrich and Gordon then one of them plus Thomas.


This is the post I wrote on the 3rd page of this thread on Saturday. Its the one I referred to above with regard to "opportunity costs." It also notes my reason for wanting to retain Deng and Thomas above all others:



> You start with Gordon and go from there. And no, sloth, that isn't some crusade to ban Gordon from Chicago. Its only logical.
> 
> The Lakers aren't going to trade Kobe to Chicago without demanding the only pure shot creating scorer the Bulls have.
> 
> Now, how much more to add depends on how negotiations go. McBulls, as he advocated at the time of the Gasol scenario, wants to stand pat on a dramatic lowball. And I understand why.
> 
> *But of course we all know Kobe is actually worth more than that, and there is an opportunity cost associated with considering how much better he could make an eastern conference competitor if they are will to offer a little bit more than us.*
> 
> Two things I'd really like to see happen if a deal is made:
> 
> (*a) retain Deng;
> 
> (b) retain Thomas.
> 
> Some reasonable combination out of the other assets would be ideal. Of course those two guys, each standing alone, aren't trade killers. But ideally I want to keep both. We have a young core. But those guys could be allstar caliber core players for the next 12 years. I'd like to keep them together in the fold from a "now and later" perspective.*
> 
> Anyway, its all very interesting.


I'd trade Gordon and Hinrich before a combination of Gordon/Thomas or Hinrich/Thomas in this particular instance because Kobe is SO GOOD that he, with a competent point guard, instantly makes our backcourt better than it was. So you've improved there. 

Plus you get to keep the promising young 4 to help with the frontcourt. And you then have a "later core" of Deng and Thomas (ages 22 and 20, respectively) to continue to build around as Kobe declines in the next 4 years. Assuming a 4 year run with an elite Bryant, Deng and Thomas will only be 26 and 24 to continue to build around. And they are clearly our two highest upside players.

Thats why. Its a bit of a risk, I realize, keeping the unknown freak 4 over the known commodity 1 and 2, but thats how I'd approach it.


----------



## DaBullz

ViciousFlogging said:


> Lee, Frye and Crawford are part of a nucleus that can't make the playoffs in the East. I suspect it'll take more than just those guys, a couple mid-lottery picks, and whatever is left on LA's roster to make them a factor in the West. No offense to those players (they're all decent), but I think they'd have trouble getting out of the division cellar if their core was those guys plus Odom/Bynum or whatever.
> 
> I think they just keep Kobe and try to mend fences if that's the best offer they get.


They save $10M to $15M in salary cap space, and they'd be under by about that much. Those players would give them a nucleus of players that'd give them decent/quality minutes and would not be a bad bunch to add a near full-boat FA signee to.


----------



## Ron Cey

DaBullz said:


> Depends on our roster. Depends on if Kobe demands a trade.


I'm saying take their roster and put it on the Bulls and then have Kobe demand a trade. I.e., identical scenario, identical roster, identical trade demand, but Kobe is a Bull. As a Bulls fan, would you get behind it or advocate that management hold out for something better/just keep Kobe and try to work it out. 

I'd burn Paxson's house to the ground if he traded Kobe for Crawford/Lee/Frye. And I think you would too.


----------



## DaBullz

Ron Cey said:


> I'm saying take their roster and put on the Bulls and then have Kobe demand a trade. As a Bulls fan, would you get behind it or advocate that management hold out for something better/just keep Kobe and try to work it out.
> 
> I'd burn Paxson's house to the ground if he traded Kobe for Crawford/Lee/Frye. And I think you would too.


You seemed to support Paxson dumping anyone (particularly our leading scorers) for cap space. Why wouldn't you give him the benefit of the cap space in this equation?

Seems to me the Lakers assessment may be they're mired in mediocrity unless they tank for some good draft picks (multiple). You can lose with Kobe or lose without him. They may also determine that Kobe's going to be a bit older by the time they can develop said draft picks.


----------



## Ron Cey

> You seemed to support Paxson dumping anyone (particularly our leading scorers) for cap space. Why wouldn't you give him the benefit of the cap space in this equation?


I don't understand. Kobe is the best basketball player on the planet. Trading Jamal Crawford for capspace isn't even remotely comparable to trading Kobe for capspace. 

But I've said what I'd do and what I'd supprt. What would you advocate? 

(a) pull the trigger;
(b) hold out for more from another team; or
(c) keep kobe and try to appease him over time. 

Its a pretty simple question. And there is no trick involved, I promise. :biggrin:


----------



## jnrjr79

ace20004u said:


> Do you think an offer of a resigned Noce, Gordon & the #9 pick would be a better offer? Perhaps throwing in a Sweetney, Duhon, or VK for ballast, maybe even adding a future #1, or, I guess if push comes to shove, Thomas?
> 
> 
> ACE



I'm brutal at CBA compliance-related matters, but I don't think this is possible. 

I don't think you can trade this years pick with Nocioni or PJ. We can't re-sign players until after the draft and we can only trade picks before (or during) the draft. Therefore, the timing doesn't work.

Someone please correct me if I misunderstand.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

DaBullz said:


> They save $10M to $15M in salary cap space, and they'd be under by about that much. Those players would give them a nucleus of players that'd give them decent/quality minutes and would not be a bad bunch to add a near full-boat FA signee to.


Would they be under? Frye is due an extension in a couple years, Crawford is on the books for a decent chunk, and Lee will need to be paid if he keeps up his 10/10 type of output. They'd still have Odom, though I don't know how long his contract runs off the top of my head. 

If they were under far enough to sign a top-tier FA, I could see them being decent. But decent still won't get them anywhere in the west, probably not even playoffs considering that the already-deep West will get deeper after draft day.

I still don't see LA biting at an offer like that unless they felt they had no choice whatsoever.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

ace20004u said:


> Do you think an offer of a resigned Noce, Gordon & the #9 pick would be a better offer? Perhaps throwing in a Sweetney, Duhon, or VK for ballast, maybe even adding a future #1, or, I guess if push comes to shove, Thomas?
> 
> 
> ACE


I do think Noc/Gordon/9 would be a better package than the Knicks' one, but still not enough to budge the Lakers unless they really thought Kobe would sit out or do something drastic out of protest.  Plus, as jnr said, I don't think the numbers work on that deal. A resigned PJ or Wallace's big deal are generally needed in any Kobe deal.


----------



## DaBullz

Ron Cey said:


> I don't understand. Kobe is the best basketball player on the planet. Trading Jamal Crawford for capspace isn't even remotely comparable to trading Kobe for capspace.
> 
> But I've said what I'd do and what I'd supprt. What would you advocate?
> 
> (a) pull the trigger;
> (b) hold out for more from another team; or
> (c) keep kobe and try to appease him over time.
> 
> Its a pretty simple question. And there is no trick involved, I promise. :biggrin:


Against my wishes, I'd probably trade him (a), while working on (b), if (c) isn't working out.

Not a trick answer.


----------



## DaBullz

ViciousFlogging said:


> Would they be under? Frye is due an extension in a couple years, Crawford is on the books for a decent chunk, and Lee will need to be paid if he keeps up his 10/10 type of output. They'd still have Odom, though I don't know how long his contract runs off the top of my head.
> 
> If they were under far enough to sign a top-tier FA, I could see them being decent. But decent still won't get them anywhere in the west, probably not even playoffs considering that the already-deep West will get deeper after draft day.
> 
> I still don't see LA biting at an offer like that unless they felt they had no choice whatsoever.


They'd be under.

Kobe's due $20M-ish.

Crawford $8M, Frye $2.5M, Lee < $1M.

Lakers would be at $42M in salaries next summer, cap around $55M.

It gives them the space to bring in a full-boat FA.


----------



## Ron Cey

DaBullz said:


> Against my wishes, I'd probably trade him (a), while working on (b), if (c) isn't working out.
> 
> Not a trick answer.


I don't know how you can do (a) and (b) contemporaneously. Regardless, I'd never do that trade. Never. I'd literally call his bluff even if he dared to sit out before I'd take that package. 

Something better would come along, and Kobe would agree to it to get back on the court. He'd not allow his legacy to be tainted by sitting out for very long, if at all.


----------



## DaBullz

Ron Cey said:


> I don't know how you can do (a) and (b) contemporaneously. Regardless, I'd never do that trade. Never. I'd literally call his bluff even if he dared to sit out before I'd take that package.
> 
> Something better would come along, and Kobe would agree to it to get back on the court. He'd not allow his legacy to be tainted by sitting out for very long, if at all.


Seems like the Lakers are doing (b) as we write these posts.

The negative impact on the team, which is already mired at the 40-ish win level, doesn't make keeping him that worthwhile. Unless you care about the money in the owner's pockets (butts in the seats).


----------



## Ron Cey

DaBullz said:


> Seems like the Lakers are doing (b) as we write these posts.
> 
> The negative impact on the team, which is already mired at the 40-ish win level, doesn't make keeping him that worthwhile. Unless you care about the money in the owner's pockets (butts in the seats).


But for how long? Thats the thing. Sure you can bet they are working the phones for alternatives in the short term. But that isn't what I mean. I mean I'd just flat out refuse to do it and would explore offers until I found something better. Even if it took a year. But you wouldn't. You'd take the trade. Thats cool. We just disagree about that. I think that proposal is for ****. Faced with that alternative, I'd be willing to see what would happen if I called Kobe's hand. 

As for the money in the owners' pockets, I sure don't care about it one bit. But I suspect very much that they do.


----------



## DaBullz

Ron Cey said:


> But for how long? Thats the thing. Sure you can bet they are working the phones for alternatives in the short term. But that isn't what I mean. I mean I'd just flat out refuse to do it and would explore offers until I found something better. Even if it took a year. But you wouldn't. You'd take the trade. Thats cool. We just disagree about that. I think that proposal is for ****. Faced with that alternative, I'd be willing to see what would happen if I called Kobe's hand.
> 
> As for the money in the owners' pockets, I sure don't care about it one bit. But I suspect very much that they do.


They're ability to field offers is limited. Kobe has a no-trade clause and can basically dictate what teams he'd be traded to. In that respect, the Lakers clearly are talking to his choice of 3 teams; they'll have to bid if the Lakers play their cards right. However, a friend just suggested to me that New Jersey might be able to come up with a decent offer for Kobe (re-signed Vince, plus) and that Kobe might think playing alongside Kidd and Krstic and Jefferson is worth considering.


----------



## Ron Cey

DaBullz said:


> They're ability to field offers is limited. Kobe has a no-trade clause and can basically dictate what teams he'd be traded to. In that respect, the Lakers clearly are talking to his choice of 3 teams; they'll have to bid if the Lakers play their cards right.


But thats what calling his hand is: Hey, Kobe. Sorry, we thought the offers from your 3 teams of choice sucked so we aren't going to trade you. Here are your choices:

(a) expand your list;

(b) suit up; or

(c) go home and watch your already questionable image and place in history go down the toilet while the media turns you into Terrel Owens.


----------



## MikeDC

I have to agree with Penguin. If I'm the Lakers, I let Kobe sit and destroy his own rep before i trade him. The way I look at it, that kind of deal would still be on the table even if Kobe sat out a year, so you might as well either get a year of play out of him or force him to unambiguously be the heavy in the situation.


----------



## Snake

MikeDC said:


> I have to agree with Penguin. If I'm the Lakers, I let Kobe sit and destroy his own rep before i trade him. The way I look at it, that kind of deal would still be on the table even if Kobe sat out a year, so you might as well either get a year of play out of him or force him to unambiguously be the heavy in the situation.


The problem with letting him sit is that they upset the fans. The Lakers would be lucky if they could fill the Staples Center halfway. If the choice is trade him or he sits I think they should trade him.


----------



## Ron Cey

Snake said:


> The problem with letting him sit is that they upset the fans. The Lakers would be lucky if they could fill the Staples Center halfway. If the choice is trade him or he sits I think they should trade him.


If he refuses to play, the fans will turn on Kobe, not the Lakers. And one season of lowered ticket sales (even if that actually happens, which is arguable) is worth not being forced into a horrid trade of an extremely valuable asset.


----------



## Snake

Ron Cey said:


> If he refuses to play, the fans will turn on Kobe, not the Lakers. And one season of lowered ticket sales (even if that actually happens, which is arguable) is worth not being forced into a horrid trade of an extremely valuable asset.


If the Lakers trade Kobe they could get Gordon and some nice pieces from the Bulls to build around. If Kobe plays the only solid player besides Kobe on that team is Odom, and maybe Bynum depending on on how he develops next year. If Kobe sits they make this years Grizzlies look like the 90s Bulls.

They would be in the same situation as Philly with AI this year. Except they're big, bad LA so they scoff at any trade that doesn't have them rip off the other team.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

MikeDC said:


> I have to agree with Penguin. If I'm the Lakers, I let Kobe sit and destroy his own rep before i trade him. The way I look at it, that kind of deal would still be on the table even if Kobe sat out a year, so you might as well either get a year of play out of him or force him to unambiguously be the heavy in the situation.


I agree too. I can only see the Lakers trading Kobe if they get back a package that's either a)extremely marketable or b)projects to make them a winning team. Preferably both, obviously. A trade for Vince Carter could satisfy (a), though you have to wonder if he'd wilt in the LA glare if/when the Lakers struggle to stay around .500 with him as the centerpiece of an average roster. The Lakers don't have the leverage to get a package that satisfies (b), in my opinion, unless the teams on Kobe's list go into a fierce bidding war and someone like us coughs up all of their valuable assets for him. I don't see Paxson doing that, and I don't see any package of Isiah's players making LAL a winning team in the west.


----------



## Snake

Bucher right now on ESPN says meeting was Kobe telling Buss this is goodbye. He said the 3 teams Kobe's considering are Suns,Mavs, and Bulls and that he can't see the Lakers considering Suns and Mavs. He also said he hears the Bulls are showing interest in getting Kobe.


----------



## step

> He said the 3 teams Kobe's considering are Suns,Mavs, and Bulls


That alone makes it more credible imo, having the Knicks in the previous rumours just made it all scream fake.


----------



## kulaz3000

Snake said:


> Bucher right now on ESPN says meeting was Kobe telling Buss this is goodbye. He said the 3 teams Kobe's considering are Suns,Mavs, and Bulls and that he can't see the Lakers considering Suns and Mavs. He also said he hears the Bulls are showing interest in getting Kobe.


I don't see why the Lakers would care whether they trade within their conference anyhow? Whats the big deal? They were barely making the playoffs and its not like making a big trade within their conference will make a huge difference. If anything they are probably better off trading within their conference since teams like the Suns and Mavs have more talent to give up with contracts that are easier to match up with...

Who do the Lakers think they are? Are they afraid they won't make it to the first round again by trading within the west?


----------



## ViciousFlogging

step said:


> That alone makes it more credible imo, having the Knicks in the previous rumours just made it all scream fake.


Why do you say that? Being the guy who restored the Knicks to respectability seems like just the kind of challenge Kobe might want to take on.

Of course, if he's frustrated with Kupchak not giving him talent to work with, he might not be any happier playing with NY's mismatched roster. I also can hardly imagine a worse PG for him to team up with than Marbury.


----------



## DaBullz

Lakers without Kobe and nothing in return.

That'll fill the seats and give the team a bright future. They also take the cap hit.


----------



## theanimal23

It comes down to two things: Do the Lakers value a better package from a team out west despite them giving another championship away (ie Miami), or would they settle for Lesser 'pieces' to ship him out East.

One thing I can say as a Bulls fan, I only want Kobe if the pieces around him will likely not only get you out of the East, but win it all. Otherwise there is no point in pulling a '06-07 Cavs. Might as well stay status quo and we are in the same sitution.

One thing I'm confident in, if we get Kobe, Pax won the trade. Pax isn't going to gut the team.


----------



## jnrjr79

ViciousFlogging said:


> Why do you say that? Being the guy who restored the Knicks to respectability seems like just the kind of challenge Kobe might want to take on.
> 
> Of course, if he's frustrated with Kupchak not giving him talent to work with, he might not be any happier playing with NY's mismatched roster. I also can hardly imagine a worse PG for him to team up with than Marbury.


It might be a "been there, done that" situation. He tried in LA to win with an underwhelming assorted cast. I don't think now he wants to rebuild a place. He wants to play with some guys with some talent, win rings, and cement his place in history.

Of course, I don't know anything more than anyone else, but that would be my take.


----------



## kulaz3000

jnrjr79 said:


> It might be a "been there, done that" situation. He tried in LA to win with an underwhelming assorted cast. I don't think now he wants to rebuild a place. He wants to play with some guys with some talent, win rings, and cement his place in history.
> 
> Of course, I don't know anything more than anyone else, but that would be my take.


I think he it has more to do with his distrust in the managment of the Lakers more than anything. I think for example he wouldn't mind going to the Bulls with less talent because he could trust someone like Paxson to do everything to make the team a contender. Im not advocating that i want him on my team, but i think that is the only defense on why Kobe would want to leave the Lakers. Which is fair enough to an extent, because if you had a chance at someone like Baron Davis or Jason Kidd if management wasn't so boneheaded about Bynum you wouldn't have this problem. You've got to imagine that Laker management is absolutely regretting the fact that they overally over-rated Bynum. He may be a good player in a few years but he still has atleast 3-4 years untill he even gets considered being a all star.


----------



## laso

Snake said:


> Bucher right now on ESPN says meeting was Kobe telling Buss this is goodbye. He said the 3 teams Kobe's considering are Suns,Mavs, and Bulls and that he can't see the Lakers considering Suns and Mavs. He also said he hears the Bulls are showing interest in getting Kobe.


The thing going for us if these are indeed the teams in play is that the Bulls do have young assets that can be interesting for anyone who is rebuilding. Gordon and Deng are a good core for anyone rebuilding. The Suns, maybe also could offer Amare and Boris Diaw, which do have some long term potential. Not sure about the Mavs. Josh Howard is a nice player and maybe Terry and Harris, but I don't see these players as attractive as Gordon and Deng.


----------



## T-Time

The Bulls must be pretty interested in aquiring Kobe, from all the wiretaps I've seen at RealGM they look like the most active as they should be. They have the most pieces to offer although I would be very weary of trading Luol Deng. I said in a previous post that Kobe has all the leverage of any trade and if the Lakers are going to trade him they can't expect anywhere close to equal value in return. I don't know cap well but If there is a trade Ben Wallace seems like the only one who we can offer thats anywhere close to Kobe's contract. I don't want to just throw Big Ben aside but the only alternative I can see is a sign and trade with Nocioni but I don't think the Lakers want to pay Nocioni a heafty contract. If we don't include Deng in the deal Its going to be Gordon + Wallace for Kobe IMO, unless like I said, there is a sign in trade that involved Nocioni which seems highly unlikely.


----------



## remlover

DaBullz said:


> Lakers without Kobe and nothing in return.
> 
> That'll fill the seats and give the team a bright future. They also take the cap hit.


I don't often agree with you but on this point I do. 

Staples Center has tons of luxury suites that need to be filled. I can't imagine the Lakers having a marketing campaign along the lines of, "These Kids Can Play!"


----------



## T.Shock

All this Kobe to Bulls talk has to be leading somewhere. It is too plentiful not to unless someone comes in a with a far superior offer.


----------



## DaBullz

*Buss addresses Laker fans, leaves Bryant out*

LOS ANGELES (Ticker) -- Los Angeles Lakers owner Jerry Buss sent a letter aimed at reassuring fans about the direction of the team that did not mention disgruntled star Kobe Bryant.

In a letter sent over the weekend, Buss responded to what he described as fans' "overriding concerns or questions of the basketball side of the Lakers organization." 

"You want to win. We want to win," Buss said in the letter. "We are on the same page. During my 28 years of ownership, the Lakers have been to the playoffs 26 times. Lakers teams under my ownership have gone to the Finals 12 times and won eight championships. 

"Merely qualifying for the playoffs is certainly an accomplishment; however, we all want more. That said, and we know this from experience, making it to the Finals is never easy, and winning it all is even harder." 

The letter comes after Buss reportedly spoke to Bryant late last week, hoping to convince the perennial All-Star that the team was moving in the right direction. But it is understood Bryant reiterated his request to be traded, which he first made on ESPN Radio on May 30. 


In separate interviews on the same day, Bryant retracted his desire to leave Los Angeles. But on Sunday, Bryant posted a message on his personal web site, KB24.com, insisting he still wants out. 

The media storm surrounding Bryant may have persuaded Buss to act. Buss has owned the Lakers since 1979 but has rarely contacted season-ticket holders directly in such a way. 

In previous public statements made in the last two weeks, Buss continued to express his hope that Bryant would stay. *However, his letter could indicate that Bryant is not a part of the team's future. *

Although he omitted Bryant from the letter, Buss confirmed his primary goal to win another title. 

* "Our goal has been, and remains to be, to build the Lakers into a team that can regularly compete for championships," Buss said. "I believe that we have always shown a willingness to do what needs to be done and spend what needs to be spent to deliver you championship-caliber basketball. We remain committed to that philosophy." 
*

(has anyone heard Paxson say this? Reinsdorf?)


----------



## bullybullz

kulaz3000 said:


> I don't see why the Lakers would care whether they trade within their conference anyhow? Whats the big deal? They were barely making the playoffs and its not like making a big trade within their conference will make a huge difference. If anything they are probably better off trading within their conference since teams like the Suns and Mavs have more talent to give up with contracts that are easier to match up with...
> 
> Who do the Lakers think they are? Are they afraid they won't make it to the first round again by trading within the west?


Just look at what happened to us. Detroit let Ben Wallace walk to Chicago for nothing and Detroit ended up not beating freakin' Cleveland. Mostly everyone (including me) thought that Detroit would win the series but since Detroit lost the interior D and the 4 time DPOY in Ben Wallace, it totally backfired.

Also look at the records. We improved by eight more wins (41-49) while they went from 64 wins to 53 wins. So basically that's a 19 game swing due largely to one player.


----------



## Nu_Omega

Lakers will be nuts if they doesn't demand at least 2 of our big 3.

Deng and B.G for Kobe straight up. 

Trade the 9th pick to Seattle for Collison. (They too many big men to spare)

Trade Duhon and filler for Atlanta's 11th pick and draft Al Thorton (I see Thorton as someone who can contribute straight away)

Sign a big FA ie. Darko

PG - Kirk
SG - Kobe
SF - Thorton/Noce
PF - Tyrus/Darko or Noce
C - Wallace/Collison 

Thabo to share PG or SG role. (or even SF)

Our backcourt may be a bit thin but it may work. But then again, i hope Pax doesn't trade for Kobe though, he's just not my cup of tea.


----------



## bullybullz

Nu_Omega said:


> Lakers will be nuts if they doesn't demand at least 2 of our big 3.
> 
> Deng and B.G for Kobe straight up.
> 
> Trade the 9th pick to Seattle for Collison. (They too many big men to spare)
> 
> Trade Duhon and filler for Atlanta's 11th pick and draft Al Thorton (I see Thorton as someone who can contribute straight away)
> 
> Sign a big FA ie. Darko
> 
> PG - Kirk
> SG - Kobe
> SF - Thorton/Noce
> PF - Tyrus/Darko or Noce
> C - Wallace/Collison
> 
> Thabo to share PG or SG role. (or even SF)
> 
> Our backcourt may be a bit thin but it may work. But then again, i hope Pax doesn't trade for Kobe though, he's just not my cup of tea.


OK, where do I start? First the Kobe for BG and Deng does not work under the cap so it can't be done. Second why would the Lakers go for that?? It's not enough. Then signing Darko. Where do the Bulls get this kind of money?? They would be way over the luxury cap.

Although in reality it won't/can't work, it would be cool to have that kind of team.


----------



## chifaninca

Well, If you are Reinsdorf, and you give Paxson the go ahead to get Kobe, You'd better not be worried about the Cap ramifications.

You say Pax, once again, The Chicago Bulls have the best player in the league. I want you to do whatever it takes to win a few more championships.

To Me, if we trade Wallace and the #9, I would certainly hope Darko and Mihm would be on our radar for MLE.


----------



## soonerterp

I am 110% against destroying the core for Kobe Bryant. I can't believe this is still out there ... I guess the comments that Bryant has made most recently (if you're awake turn on All Night with Jason Smith on ESPNRadio ... he was all over it a couple of hours ago, so is the aolsportsblog) are what have kept it alive.

I hate it. I wish Kobe would STFU. I don't want Kobe near the Bulls, Blazers, or any other team I care about.


----------



## Ron Cey

remlover said:


> I don't often agree with you but on this point I do.
> 
> Staples Center has tons of luxury suites that need to be filled. I can't imagine the Lakers having a marketing campaign along the lines of, "These Kids Can Play!"


That exact same "can't fill the seats" logic would apply to getting no-name role-players in return for Kobe as well. Like Lee, Crawford, and Frye. LA fans would be saying "Who?"

You need at least one marketable name, offensive minded player in return for Kobe. Ben Gordon is that. None of the Knicks' fodder is.


----------



## ace20004u

jnrjr79 said:


> I'm brutal at CBA compliance-related matters, but I don't think this is possible.
> 
> I don't think you can trade this years pick with Nocioni or PJ. We can't re-sign players until after the draft and we can only trade picks before (or during) the draft. Therefore, the timing doesn't work.
> 
> Someone please correct me if I misunderstand.



Sure you can. Well, you sort of can. You would have to draft the player for the Lakers, not trade them the pick and the deal would have to take place on 07/12, when we can sign free agents. The deal could be a wink and a nudge deal but couldn't be announced till 07/12 because we can't "technically" negotiate with either PJ or Noce till then. Still, its hard to imagine either one of them passing up an inflated payday like they would have to get in this scenario and PJ would only get 1 year gauranteed money if he was the guy we sent. I am sure Pax could sneak in some informal negotiations with Noce or PJ to be assured they would accept a S&T thus working it out, in principle with the Lakers and picking for them on 06/28. I think if its Noce we deal we would probably have to include Sweetney or VK for ballast purposes or his contract would be way too large.

ACE


----------



## ace20004u

There is a lot of talk like "Oh the Lakers couldn't possibly give up Kobe for that. They would need Deng & Gordon". I'm not sure what people in this mindset are thinking. THe Lakers are the team behind the 8 ball here, not us. Kobe is demanding a trade and while they could keep the pissed off superstar and let him piss and moan to oppossing teams every night and tarnish LA's leaguewide reputation, they won't do that. It's suicide. They will have to take the best reasonable offer they get for Kobe and lo and behold, Kobe only has 3-4 teams he's willing to go to and 2 of them are out west! It's the Bulls race to lose and LA is going to have to take a deal like Noce, Gordon, #9 & Sweetney. They can't simply hold out for Deng& Gordon because thats not going to happen. The only thing they can hope is that Cuban will offer Nowitski or something or PHX Marion, making a conference rival deal potentially palatable. The Bulls aren't the team that needs to make a deal here and LA isn't getting equal value back in return...period.

ACE


----------



## Cocoa Rice Krispies

ace20004u said:


> Kobe is demanding a trade and while they could keep the pissed off superstar and let him piss and moan to oppossing teams every night and tarnish *his own sullied reputation even further*...


Fix'd quote.


----------



## ace20004u

It didn't need to be fixed, among NBA players Kobe is a God and anything he says will reflect poorly on LA, not him. Its the same way MJ & Pip being pissed at Chicago worked out. Chicago didn't do anything wrong, they couldn't give Pip more because his contract couldn't even be renegotiated under the terms of that CBA and they offere MJ 30mil a year, but still they were the ones who tarnished their rep, not MJ or Pip. Its just the way things work...


ACE


----------



## SecretAgentGuy

Since we're going wild with the trade scenarios here, how about Phoenix getting both KG and Kobe?

MN gets Marion, Barbosa, filler (Pike?), and draft picks.
LA gets Amare and Raja.

Nash/Kobe/KG would be one of the greatest trios in history and would challenge the Bulls 72 win season.


----------



## Ron Cey

ace20004u said:


> It didn't need to be fixed, among NBA players Kobe is a God and anything he says will reflect poorly on LA, not him.


I don't have any cites for this or anything, but I've read a number of times over the years from different media outlets that Kobe Bryant isn't very popular among his contemporaries at all.


----------



## ace20004u

And there's more. Word has it that some guys in the Los Angeles area have video footage of Bryant cussing and complaining about the Lakers' personnel decisions. According to Hoopsworld.com, which has seen the video, the same guys also have an audio clip of Bryant captured on a cell phone on June 10 in which Bryant, in response to a query about whether he plans to remain with the Lakers, responds, ''Get a Bulls uniform, fellas.'' 

ACE


(from an Article by Carol Slezak of the Sun Times entitled "grant Kobe's wish" )


----------



## ace20004u

Thats great but why would LA help Phx build a juggernaut? Conventional wisdom says they won't even make a major deal with a conference rival.

ACE


----------



## SecretAgentGuy

ace20004u said:


> Thats great but why would LA help Phx build a juggernaut? Conventional wisdom says they won't even make a major deal with a conference rival.
> 
> ACE


Because Amare/Bell is a much better combo than anything the Bulls are willing to give up. And it still allows them to be competitive with a lineup of Odom/Amare/Bell/Bynum. Not championship caliber yet, but better than Gordon, Hinrich and PJ Brown.


----------



## ace20004u

SecretAgentGuy said:


> Because Amare/Bell is a much better combo than anything the Bulls are willing to give up. And it still allows them to be competitive with a lineup of Odom/Amare/Bell/Bynum. Not championship caliber yet, but better than Gordon, Hinrich and PJ Brown.



Yeah but having that team wouldn't help much when they faced Phoenix & Nash, Kobe, Kg in the playoffs now would it? So it's ultimately no help to them. 


ACE


----------



## McBulls

ace20004u said:


> There is a lot of talk like "Oh the Lakers couldn't possibly give up Kobe for that. They would need Deng & Gordon". I'm not sure what people in this mindset are thinking. THe Lakers are the team behind the 8 ball here, not us. Kobe is demanding a trade and while they could keep the pissed off superstar and let him piss and moan to oppossing teams every night and tarnish LA's leaguewide reputation, they won't do that. It's suicide. They will have to take the best reasonable offer they get for Kobe and lo and behold, Kobe only has 3-4 teams he's willing to go to and 2 of them are out west! It's the Bulls race to lose and LA is going to have to take a deal like Noce, Gordon, #9 & Sweetney. They can't simply hold out for Deng& Gordon because thats not going to happen. The only thing they can hope is that Cuban will offer Nowitski or something or PHX Marion, making a conference rival deal potentially palatable. The Bulls aren't the team that needs to make a deal here and LA isn't getting equal value back in return...period.
> 
> ACE


Exactly. Nothing says a trade has to be fair. Philly didn't get fair value for AI. LA didn't get fair value for Shaq, and they won't get fair value for Kobe. The best they can hope for is a second tier star like Pierce and some draft picks.

Gordon plus filler and picks may not be fair, but it's competitive with other offers LA is likely to receive. BTW, Nocioni is NOT filler -- he's a damn good forward; better than anyone other than Odom on LA. So I would be reluctant to include him AND the #9 pick unless some other team was offering more. 

Frankly, the Bulls need a young big man a lot more than they need an upgrade at shooting guard. Kobe or no Kobe, the Bulls won't be winning much without a center in a couple of years, and the #9 pick is their last good chance to get a decent center without trading half the team away in a sign & trade deal.

If Kobe is really interested in winning, and I think he is, I doubt that he will be going to a lousy New York team that will have traded three of their best players for him and thrown in future draft picks to boot. If his complaint is that he isn't getting quality support in LA, then he'll be jumping from the frying pan into the fire. I have bad news for him -- Curry is not much of an improvement over Bynum and Kwame.

Trading Kobe to the Clippers could be marketing suicide for the Lakers. A true test of how loyal fans are to laundry.

If LA has to deal Kobe to a winning team of his choice -- Chicago is the logical destination. And the Bulls shouldn't feel the need to give away the store/core in the process.

We don't need Kobe to compete for the title. LA and Kobe need the Bulls to reach an amicable divorice.


----------



## truebluefan

ace20004u said:


> There is a lot of talk like "Oh the Lakers couldn't possibly give up Kobe for that. They would need Deng & Gordon". I'm not sure what people in this mindset are thinking. THe Lakers are the team behind the 8 ball here, not us. Kobe is demanding a trade and while they could keep the pissed off superstar and let him piss and moan to oppossing teams every night and tarnish LA's leaguewide reputation, they won't do that. It's suicide. They will have to take the best reasonable offer they get for Kobe and lo and behold, Kobe only has 3-4 teams he's willing to go to and 2 of them are out west! It's the Bulls race to lose and LA is going to have to take a deal like Noce, Gordon, #9 & Sweetney. They can't simply hold out for Deng& Gordon because thats not going to happen. The only thing they can hope is that Cuban will offer Nowitski or something or PHX Marion, making a conference rival deal potentially palatable. The Bulls aren't the team that needs to make a deal here and LA isn't getting equal value back in return...period.
> 
> ACE


you spoke my thoughts exactly Ace...We dont have to trade for Kobe. We don't NEED kobe. It would be nice to have him, but at the right price for us. All we need to do is add a young player, make a minor trade or two and sign the right player at MLE and we are contending for the eastern finals and maybe the whole thing next year. Why gut the team for Kobe just to become the Lakers of the east? It won't happen.


----------



## truebluefan

ace20004u said:


> And there's more. Word has it that some guys in the Los Angeles area have video footage of Bryant cussing and complaining about the Lakers' personnel decisions. According to Hoopsworld.com, which has seen the video, the same guys also have an audio clip of Bryant captured on a cell phone on June 10 in which Bryant, in response to a query about whether he plans to remain with the Lakers, responds, ''Get a Bulls uniform, fellas.''
> 
> ACE
> 
> 
> (from an Article by Carol Slezak of the Sun Times entitled "grant Kobe's wish" )


yeah Ace..that video has been talked about for a while now. It appears to be legit.


----------



## BG7

At the end of the day, Gordon/Deng do not go in a trade for Kobe. We have competition in the Suns/Knicks for Kobe. Why shoot ourselves in the foot. The Knicks are labeling Eddy Curry as untouchable. 

It will basically come down to East vs. West, Bulls vs. Suns. Lakers are going to get the most bang for their buck trading him to Phoenix (Marion, Barbosa, Hawks pick). It looks like Marion might get traded to Washington before the draft, so that could take Phoenix out of the running (or to put it more correct, themselves taking themselves out of the running).

Someone mentioned Kobe, Nash, and KG being one of the best trios of all time. Well how about Gordon-Kobe-Deng. With that trio, we are looking at a special team. I think Kobe, the two guys he'd mesh with best, and Gordon/Deng working out with Kobe in such a competitive area would only bring them to take their game up to a higher level. 

My final offer, would be:

Chris Duhon
Viktar Khryapa
Kirk Hinrich
Thabo Sefolosha
PJ Brown
Yi Jianlian
2008 draft pick
2010 draft pick

for 

Kobe Bryant
Vladmir Radmanovic
Jordan Farmar

Three young players (Hinrich, Yi, Thabo), Cap Relief (Khryapa, Duhon, Brown as expirings, taking out Vladman and Farmar along with Kobe), and draft picks (2008/2010), is more than enough fair value for Kobe.

That leaves us with:

PG-Ben Gordon/JamesOn Curry/Jordan Farmar
SG-Kobe Bryant/Adrian Griffin
SF-Luol Deng/Andres Nocioni
PF-Tyrus Thomas/Andres Nocioni/Vladman
C- Ben Wallace/MLE

That gives us a special team. We keep our two best players, and add the best player in the trade. Kirk Hinrich is the only true piece from last years team that contributed anything really positive (PJ Brown was only good for the Pistons series, and Thabo for very few little flashes), so its basically taking last years main team, and replacing Hinrich with Kobe as far as players that contribute in a positive fashion go. Plus, we can go out, and use the MLE on a big, like Webber.

So, I'd guesstimate:

Ben Gordon- 25 PPG on 59.2 TS%, 6 APG
Kobe Bryant- 28 PPG on 58.9 TS%, 5 APG
Luol Deng- 20 PPG on 57.2 TS%, 4 APG, 8 RPG
Tyrus Thomas- 10 PPG, 8 RPG, 2 BPG
Ben Wallace- 6 PPG 12 RPG 2 BPG

This gives us a special team, and we still have a hell of a 6th man (6th man of the year material possibly) in Andres Nocioni. We still have room for tons of internal improvement (Gordon/Deng/Thomas aren't done yet). 

There is a difference between making us like say a team on the Rockets level, which I think trading Gordon or Deng in a Kobe trade...and being a special team, on the Spurs and Suns level...maybe higher. I just can't see any team stopping a Gordon/Kobe/Deng trio. I could see a team taking out a Hinrich/Gordon/Kobe or Hinrich/Kobe/Deng trio. But we will roll over the East for the next 4-5 years with a Gordon/Kobe/Deng trio. We'd keep Thomas, and hopefully Kobe will be able to push him up a level (at the very least, Tyrus should be benefitting from some wide open easy dunks)...and Ben Wallace will hopefully be reinvigorated, feeling he is on a true contender.

So in the end, Paxson should make Gordon/Deng/Thomas/Wallace off limits, and one of Thabo/Nocioni.

He just needs to be strong, and not give up anyone of our already special players (Gordon/Deng), or our potentially special player (Tyrus Thomas), in this trade. Kobe can go sit out games. Kobe just needs to be smart...everyone will quickly forget about him sitting out games, or cussing out Lakers management (hell this isn't even painting him negative at this point), as he is rolling along with a juggernaut Bulls team, rolling through the East for the next 4-5 years. Hell, Gordon/Deng could easily develop good enough, that they can make an old Kobe Bryant look better than he actually is. Kobe has 3 championships already, I could see him getting up to around 8 or 9 with Deng/Gordon/Thomas. 

Paxson can't be desperate. He has to stand strong, because if he plays his cards right, he can have a dynasty, and not just a contender.


----------



## ace20004u

No it won't. Thats not to say I don't think a deal for Kobe will get done, I think it will. I just don't think Pax will gut our team, or even have to gut our team, to make it happen. I fully expect it to be something like Noce, Gordon, Sweetney, and our draft pick. The MOST I would see uss adding to that deal would be Thomas or a future #1 and even that seems unlikely to me. The other possibility is that we need to do a deal pre draft and we send Wallace & Gordon to LA for Kobe & Brown but that seems like an outside chance to me.

ACE


----------



## truebluefan

SecretAgentGuy said:


> Because Amare/Bell is a much better combo than anything the Bulls are willing to give up. And it still allows them to be competitive with a lineup of Odom/Amare/Bell/Bynum. Not championship caliber yet, but better than Gordon, Hinrich and PJ Brown.


I dissagree. Gordon/nocioni..filler and our #9 and future #1's can beat that. We can add ending contracts...


----------



## truebluefan

ace20004u said:


> No it won't. Thats not to say I don't think a deal for Kobe will get done, I think it will. I just don't think Pax will gut our team, or even have to gut our team, to make it happen. I fully expect it to be something like Noce, Gordon, Sweetney, and our draft pick. The MOST I would see uss adding to that deal would be Thomas or a future #1 and even that seems unlikely to me. The other possibility is that we need to do a deal pre draft and we send Wallace & Gordon to LA for Kobe & Brown but that seems like an outside chance to me.
> 
> ACE


i think Kobe will be a bull...but our team will not be gutted.


----------



## truebluefan

Mebarak said:


> At the end of the day, Gordon/Deng do not go in a trade for Kobe. We have competition in the Suns/Knicks for Kobe. Why shoot ourselves in the foot. The Knicks are labeling Eddy Curry as untouchable.
> 
> It will basically come down to East vs. West, Bulls vs. Suns. Lakers are going to get the most bang for their buck trading him to Phoenix (Marion, Barbosa, Hawks pick). It looks like Marion might get traded to Washington before the draft, so that could take Phoenix out of the running (or to put it more correct, themselves taking themselves out of the running).
> 
> Someone mentioned Kobe, Nash, and KG being one of the best trios of all time. Well how about Gordon-Kobe-Deng. With that trio, we are looking at a special team. I think Kobe, the two guys he'd mesh with best, and Gordon/Deng working out with Kobe in such a competitive area would only bring them to take their game up to a higher level.
> 
> My final offer, would be:
> 
> Chris Duhon
> Viktar Khryapa
> Kirk Hinrich
> Thabo Sefolosha
> PJ Brown
> Yi Jianlian
> 2008 draft pick
> 2010 draft pick
> 
> for
> 
> Kobe Bryant
> Vladmir Radmanovic
> Jordan Farmar
> 
> Three young players (Hinrich, Yi, Thabo), Cap Relief (Khryapa, Duhon, Brown as expirings, taking out Vladman and Farmar along with Kobe), and draft picks (2008/2010), is more than enough fair value for Kobe.
> 
> That leaves us with:
> 
> PG-Ben Gordon/JamesOn Curry/Jordan Farmar
> SG-Kobe Bryant/Adrian Griffin
> SF-Luol Deng/Andres Nocioni
> PF-Tyrus Thomas/Andres Nocioni/Vladman
> C- Ben Wallace/MLE
> 
> That gives us a special team. We keep our two best players, and add the best player in the trade. Kirk Hinrich is the only true piece from last years team that contributed anything really positive (PJ Brown was only good for the Pistons series, and Thabo for very few little flashes), so its basically taking last years main team, and replacing Hinrich with Kobe as far as players that contribute in a positive fashion go. Plus, we can go out, and use the MLE on a big, like Webber.
> 
> So, I'd guesstimate:
> 
> Ben Gordon- 25 PPG on 59.2 TS%, 6 APG
> Kobe Bryant- 28 PPG on 58.9 TS%, 5 APG
> Luol Deng- 20 PPG on 57.2 TS%, 4 APG, 8 RPG
> Tyrus Thomas- 10 PPG, 8 RPG, 2 BPG
> Ben Wallace- 6 PPG 12 RPG 2 BPG
> 
> This gives us a special team, and we still have a hell of a 6th man (6th man of the year material possibly) in Andres Nocioni. We still have room for tons of internal improvement (Gordon/Deng/Thomas aren't done yet).
> 
> There is a difference between making us like say a team on the Rockets level, which I think trading Gordon or Deng in a Kobe trade...and being a special team, on the Spurs and Suns level...maybe higher. I just can't see any team stopping a Gordon/Kobe/Deng trio. I could see a team taking out a Hinrich/Gordon/Kobe or Hinrich/Kobe/Deng trio. But we will roll over the East for the next 4-5 years with a Gordon/Kobe/Deng trio. We'd keep Thomas, and hopefully Kobe will be able to push him up a level (at the very least, Tyrus should be benefitting from some wide open easy dunks)...and Ben Wallace will hopefully be reinvigorated, feeling he is on a true contender.
> 
> So in the end, Paxson should make Gordon/Deng/Thomas/Wallace off limits, and one of Thabo/Nocioni.
> 
> He just needs to be strong, and not give up anyone of our already special players (Gordon/Deng), or our potentially special player (Tyrus Thomas), in this trade. Kobe can go sit out games. Kobe just needs to be smart...everyone will quickly forget about him sitting out games, or cussing out Lakers management (hell this isn't even painting him negative at this point), as he is rolling along with a juggernaut Bulls team, rolling through the East for the next 4-5 years. Hell, Gordon/Deng could easily develop good enough, that they can make an old Kobe Bryant look better than he actually is. Kobe has 3 championships already, I could see him getting up to around 8 or 9 with Deng/Gordon/Thomas.
> 
> Paxson can't be desperate. He has to stand strong, because if he plays his cards right, he can have a dynasty, and not just a contender.


You make some very good points sloth. 

One point is I dissagree with Hinrich in the trade. LA would want a young scorer in either Gordon or Deng. Since Gordon is a SG, he is the odd man out. He gives the Lakers some of the scoring they lost in the trade. It would be great if your trade happened! But I don't see it going down.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

truebluefan said:


> i think Kobe will be a bull...but our team will not be gutted.


wow. I just don't think anything is going to happen. Buss isn't going to give away Kobe after he kept him over Shaq.

I believe it would take serious gutting to get him to let go of Kobe, no matter how cranky the Mamba is.

And I don't think Pax will gut.

So I don't think anything is going to come of this whispering and hinting.


----------



## BG7

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6kt9DBMMwCM"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6kt9DBMMwCM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

Mebarak said:


> <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6kt9DBMMwCM"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6kt9DBMMwCM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


I listened to it over and over.

Did he say "Every year there's a point guard controversey" or "Every year a black guy ruins things?"


----------



## Mr. T

http://www.thekobevideo.com/article.shtml

Assuming Tyrus isn't in the trade, what number will Kobe wear? Will he get Tyrus' #24, will he move back to #8 or what will his new number be? Maybe MJ will let Kobe wear his retired #. :lol:


----------



## Mr. T

The latest -

<embed width="440" height="380" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://video.tinypic.com/player.swf?file=4tgef5e"></embed>


----------



## T.Shock

ACE hit it right on the head. Going rate for a disgruntled superstar player who demands to be traded is...

Borderline All-Star/scorer(Lamar Odom/ummm Andre Miller/Steve Francis)
Solid Rotation Guy(Caron Butler/ummmm nobody/Cuttino Mobley)
Cap Relief(Brian Grant/Joe Smith/Juwan Howard)
1st Round Pick

The Bulls can offer a little more than that actually...

Ben Gordon
Andres Nocioni
P.J. Brown
#9 Pick

Nocioni would be BYC unfortunately which complicates the deal, but this is why GMs have cap gurus. Essentially, Kobe can choose where he wants to be traded. He's not going to go to Boston and play with the worst team in the league unless PP is there. So if the Lakers would prefer Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, Theo Ratliff, and the #5, I can see that maybe. But still, the Celtics have virtually nothing in the post and no point guard. The Bulls package is similar to that, the Bulls made it to the EC Semis, and they'd still have Hinrich, Deng, Tyrus, and Ben Wallace. 

I'm in complete agreement, however, that a Phoenix package starring Marion and Barbosa or a Dallas package featuring Josh Howard and Devin Harris would probably be more attractive to the Lakers from a personnel standpoint and Kobe wouldn't mind playing with Terry and Dirk or Nash and Amare, but every single superstar has been traded outside the conference. Why? Instead of seeing Kobe lead Phoenix to the of your division and having him play your team four times a year, twice at home, he leads a team in the other conference to the top of their division and you only play him twice a year, once at home. T-Mac went West, Shaq went East, Iverson went West. History doesn't lie folks.

That being said, the Lakers will want P.J.'s expiring which would give them about 17 mil freed up before next season and Ben Gordon who is the dynamic scorer they'd need to not be completely horrible. I'd give them their choice of this group: Hinrich, Nocioni, Thabo, Tyrus, Duhon. And then add the #9 pick. 

With these trade demands occuring almost every other day, I have to believe the relationship is teetering on that edge between a disgruntled relationship and an unsalvageable one.


----------



## HAWK23

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I listened to it over and over.
> 
> Did he say "Every year there's a point guard controversey" or "Every year a black guy ruins things?"



hahahahahah 

we need those videos bumped


----------



## ace20004u

T.Shock said:


> ACE hit it right on the head. Going rate for a disgruntled superstar player who demands to be traded is...
> 
> Borderline All-Star/scorer(Lamar Odom/ummm Andre Miller/Steve Francis)
> Solid Rotation Guy(Caron Butler/ummmm nobody/Cuttino Mobley)
> Cap Relief(Brian Grant/Joe Smith/Juwan Howard)
> 1st Round Pick
> 
> The Bulls can offer a little more than that actually...
> 
> Ben Gordon
> Andres Nocioni
> P.J. Brown
> #9 Pick
> 
> Nocioni would be BYC unfortunately which complicates the deal, but this is why GMs have cap gurus. Essentially, Kobe can choose where he wants to be traded. He's not going to go to Boston and play with the worst team in the league unless PP is there. So if the Lakers would prefer Al Jefferson, Ryan Gomes, Theo Ratliff, and the #5, I can see that maybe. But still, the Celtics have virtually nothing in the post and no point guard. The Bulls package is similar to that, the Bulls made it to the EC Semis, and they'd still have Hinrich, Deng, Tyrus, and Ben Wallace.
> 
> I'm in complete agreement, however, that a Phoenix package starring Marion and Barbosa or a Dallas package featuring Josh Howard and Devin Harris would probably be more attractive to the Lakers from a personnel standpoint and Kobe wouldn't mind playing with Terry and Dirk or Nash and Amare, but every single superstar has been traded outside the conference. Why? Instead of seeing Kobe lead Phoenix to the of your division and having him play your team four times a year, twice at home, he leads a team in the other conference to the top of their division and you only play him twice a year, once at home. T-Mac went West, Shaq went East, Iverson went West. History doesn't lie folks.
> 
> That being said, the Lakers will want P.J.'s expiring which would give them about 17 mil freed up before next season and Ben Gordon who is the dynamic scorer they'd need to not be completely horrible. I'd give them their choice of this group: Hinrich, Nocioni, Thabo, Tyrus, Duhon. And then add the #9 pick.
> 
> With these trade demands occuring almost every other day, I have to believe the relationship is teetering on that edge between a disgruntled relationship and an unsalvageable one.



I agree with your agreement of my post! lol :biggrin: 

However, a couple of points. #1.) we can't sign & trade two players in the same deal, so we can't send PJ & Nocioni both, its one or the other. In my mind Nocioni probably has slightly more value for them but PJ could be good too because they can dump his salary after 1 year. 

I would NOT trade both Gordon & Hinrich, primarily because I think Hinrich & Kobe would be an awesome backcourt and because well, we shouldn't have to deal two of our stars, hence LA being over the barrell on this thing. Unless Phx or Dal make significant offers, Noce, Gordon, #9, Sweetney and potentially future picks should get it done IMO.

ACE


----------



## BG7

Lakers won't want Ben Gordon. Look right now, they are unwilling to take on contracts.

Ben Gordon is going to demand a max contract on the open market (thats why its essential to sign him right now to an extension).

Lakers won't match.

Miami is a darkhorse for Gordon. 

Milwaukee and Charlotte are the obvious.

San Antonio could have capspace, they are another darkhorse for Gordon.

Portland if they could unload Zach Randolph for cap relief, they could sign Gordon for the max, and roll with Gordon-Roy-Aldridge-Oden.

If Lakers are making a trade, they'll want Hinrich and rookie contracts and draft picks.


----------



## HAWK23

Gordon will NOT get a max contract from anyone


----------



## ace20004u

Mebarak said:


> Lakers won't want Ben Gordon. Look right now, they are unwilling to take on contracts.
> 
> Ben Gordon is going to demand a max contract on the open market (thats why its essential to sign him right now to an extension).
> 
> Lakers won't match.
> 
> Miami is a darkhorse for Gordon.
> 
> Milwaukee and Charlotte are the obvious.
> 
> San Antonio could have capspace, they are another darkhorse for Gordon.
> 
> Portland if they could unload Zach Randolph for cap relief, they could sign Gordon for the max, and roll with Gordon-Roy-Aldridge-Oden.
> 
> If Lakers are making a trade, they'll want Hinrich and rookie contracts and draft picks.



Gordon won't get a max deal and without Kobe's salary LA would be just fine paying and matching Gordon.

ACE


----------



## BULLHITTER

> Gordon will NOT get a max contract from anyone


as much as i am a fan of gordon, he'd be foolish to seek a max deal at this stage of his development. paxson knows full well gordon's pluses and minuses, and won't (and shouldn't) pay gordon for things unforseen in his game to date.



> Ben Gordon is going to demand a max contract on the open market (thats why its essential to sign him right now to an extension).


gordon hasn't appeared to me to be a money driven player; as such, i doubt if he's going to *demand* a max contract, as i stated that would be foolish and he doesn't have nearly enough accomplished to seek that.


----------



## Snake

If Gordon demands and gets a max contract it'll be awfully hard for the team that's paying him to win a championship. When a player who doesn't deserve max gets max it pretty much screws you in terms of the cap. I think Gordon and Pax can reach a reasonable agreement that benefits both sides, but on the off chance Gordon demands max, I can't see Pax paying it.


----------



## anorexorcist

Mebarak said:


> Ben Gordon is going to demand a max contract on the open market (thats why its essential to sign him right now to an extension).


HUH???


----------



## theanimal23

Laker Insider on RealGM



JohnGaltLSD said:


> Word is there is a big trade brewing between Minn, LA, Chicago and another team.
> 
> LA Lakers get Garnett and Duhon
> 
> Minn gets 9th, Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas and an unnamed player from fourth team
> 
> Chicago gets Kobe Bryant
> 
> Fourth team gets Kwame Brown and 19th pick
> 
> 
> I don't know any other details or whether a resigned noc will be in or anything like that.


He also said two days before it went National that Kobe wants out

Essentially we lose Gordon, Duhon, Tyrus, and the 9th for Kobe. We'll have a gaping hole at PF, with no 'nice' PF FA available for the MLE to fill that gap.

I would give up two future 1sts to keep Tyrus as we need someone young and athletic up front. 

I would still do the deal if push came to shove, but Pax find a way to make the deal work w/o TyTy.


----------



## T.Shock

Mebarak said:


> Lakers won't want Ben Gordon. Look right now, they are unwilling to take on contracts.


After this you claim the Lakers would prefer Hinrich who has five years at an average of about 10 mil per year instead. I smell contradiction.


----------



## theanimal23

Another insider from the Lakers front on RealGM



davidse said:


> interesting. thank you john. the one true insider i trust on realgm - although i dont' see you on the laker board enough.
> 
> *this is odd though, since the information i was told said that thomas is nothing less than untouchable for the bulls*, and i was pissed since i think he's the ideal pf next to bynum if kobe is traded.
> 
> if i were la - i'd take this bulls package instead of kg, but i guess star power and selling tickets are more important to buss ?
> i hope not.
> 
> i'll ask my source if he heard anything about this 3 way and get back to you


I would do this:
Gordon
Duhon
9th
2009 1st

Our frontcourt would be crap outside of Big Ben with this trade. We are lacking as it is. I would be more willing to do it if we got Turiaf back. Call me crazy, but I think Ty will be a serious player down the road.


----------



## BG7

BULLHITTER said:


> as much as i am a fan of gordon, he'd be foolish to seek a max deal at this stage of his development. paxson knows full well gordon's pluses and minuses, and won't (and shouldn't) pay gordon for things unforseen in his game to date.
> 
> 
> 
> gordon hasn't appeared to me to be a money driven player; as such, i doubt if he's going to *demand* a max contract, as i stated that would be foolish and he doesn't have nearly enough accomplished to seek that.


By demand, I didn't mean that Gordon is going to go out and yell "Give me a ****ing max, I'm a max player". I meant that he is going to go out in the open market, since LA would have stuck itself in a pattern of mediocrity with Gordon as the only good player, and Bobcats, Spurs, etc. would show Ben the money to steal him away. He most likely won't be a Laker (or Timberwolf), for more than a year with these scenarios.


----------



## BG7

And if we're going to do these trades, I'd rather just cut the Lakers out of the equation, and take back KG ourselves. (while still keeping Tyrus).

Then I'd make my move with Tyrus and Thabo to get our shooting guard. Honestly, just go out and make a move with Tyrus, Thabo, and contract fillers for Vince Carter.

PG-Kirk Hinrich
SG-Vince Carter
SF-Luol Deng
PF-Kevin Garnett
C- Ben Wallace

Imo, it'll be easier to just go after Garnett, and get him, and then deal with the shooting guard next.


----------



## theanimal23

My bad, Davidse is not a Lakers insider, but he does hear some Lakers news. I've read his posts in the past, solid poster. I'll take his word for it.


----------



## Ron Cey

> Originally Posted by *davidse*
> interesting. thank you john. the one true insider i trust on realgm - although i dont' see you on the laker board enough.
> 
> *this is odd though, since the information i was told said that thomas is nothing less than untouchable for the bulls*, and i was pissed since i think he's the ideal pf next to bynum if kobe is traded.
> 
> if i were la - i'd take this bulls package instead of kg, but i guess star power and selling tickets are more important to buss ?
> i hope not.
> 
> i'll ask my source if he heard anything about this 3 way and get back to you


Boy, I sure hope that is true. I would trade Gordon, Thomas and the #9 as the key pieces for Kobe. I really would. But god damnit I really want to avoid including Thomas. 

Especially with Kobe. The attention Kobe would draw would lead to open season on alley-oops to TT. Damn that would be fun.


----------



## truebluefan

theanimal23 said:


> My bad, Davidse is not a Lakers insider, but he does hear some Lakers news. I've read his posts in the past, solid poster. I'll take his word for it.


Keep us posted on what he says.


----------



## theanimal23

davidse said:


> *my newest info is that the bulls say no thomas AND no deng for kobe*.
> 
> that is just crazy. there will be no kobe deal if this is true


The second part of his quote, I think is his Gut feeling and views as a Lakers fan. But the first is news he has gotten from his source, whoever that is. Him and JohnGaltLSD are respectable posters. 

I personally think Pax is doing the right thing. We don't have an amazing frontcourt and honestly the only hope we have is Tyrus and/or the 9th pick. Now if we lose both without getting anyone back, does anyone think the MLE Big Man will help us compete with the Powerhouses out West and even Detroit and Cleveland's frontline? Again, I'd do the trade, but man I would wait it out as John Paxson will to lower the value.

I'd throw in multiple future 1sts because those picks will be in the 20s than throw in Tyrus.

As a Bulls fan I'd stay the course unless the team with Kobe puts us in the Finals with an actual chance to win it unlike the Cavs. 

My ideal lineup is Kirk Kobe Lu Ty and Ben

In retrospect, if we are giving up 9th, Ben, Duhon, and Tyrus for KG to be moved, why not get him instead of Kobe? Its easier to find a MLE SG than an MLE Big Man of quality.


----------



## theanimal23

Ron Cey said:


> Boy, I sure hope that is true. I would trade Gordon, Thomas and the #9 as the key pieces for Kobe. I really would. But god damnit I really want to avoid including Thomas.
> 
> Especially with Kobe. The attention Kobe would draw would lead to open season on alley-oops to TT. Damn that would be fun.


Great minds think alike


----------



## BG7

In RETROSPECT, we'll be shaking our heads at trading Ben Gordon, the #9 pick, and Tyrus for Kobe. 

Bad trade. Paxson needs to hold firm, and bring the value down to Hinrich, Thabo, and draft picks. 

No need to rush into this thing. Let Kobe deride the Lakers more, and make the incoming trade value less and less.


----------



## Mr. T

*Mad "Max"*


----------



## theanimal23

Mebarak said:


> In RETROSPECT, we'll be shaking our heads at trading Ben Gordon, the #9 pick, and Tyrus for Kobe.
> 
> Bad trade. Paxson needs to hold firm, and bring the value down to Hinrich, Thabo, and draft picks.
> 
> No need to rush into this thing. Let Kobe deride the Lakers more, and make the incoming trade value less and less.


Sloth I agree with you.

Btw, does anyone know what Hinrich's outgoing salary value would be in a trade? I would not be surprised if he is moved instead of Benny b/c his salary might be higher.

A trade I posted a while back was:
Gordon
Noce
Thabo
Duhon
Viktor
08 and 10 1sts

Now, I would do that if you make it #9 instead of two future 1sts too. They cut Viktor who is included as salary filler.

They get a borderline All-Star, a solid rotation player, a young prospect, and a high pick in a deep draft. Ideally I'd try to keep #9 or Thabo in that situation, but I think that is plenty of value for a superstar who is demanding to be traded to less than a handful of teams.


----------



## Snake

*Re: Mad "Max"*



Mr. T said:


>


AHAHAHA ROFL!!
Seriously funny.


----------



## Ron Cey

> Bad trade. Paxson needs to hold firm, and bring the value down to Hinrich, Thabo, and draft picks.


That ain't gettin it done. How about Gordon, Thabo and draft picks? (Still won't get it done)



> No need to rush into this thing.


Maybe true. Maybe not true. But its an interesting thing to think about. There might be something said for capitalizing on the current unrest and striking while the iron is hot. What if nothing happens and Kobe "gets over it"? Certainly possible. Then you've shot yourself in the foot.

Or you are right, and patience is a virtue. Its a gamble either way, thats for certain.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: Mad "Max"*



Mr. T said:


>


:lol: My god, thats comedy gold.


----------



## theanimal23

Davidse said:


> if you knew the bulls' overall plan - you'd understand why you're wrong.
> i can't repeat what i've heard, but i think you may be surprized at what the bulls would give up for kobe, but VERY pleased with the overall roster that paxon will put together and the overall plan that should make you guys a real dynaty with kobe





Davidse said:


> i'm just saying the specific kobe trade (if it happens - there's no guarentee of that) will be somewhat of a disappointment for the bulls fan, an additional offseason move will actually shock him (not really in a good way imo), BUT the end result and the other move the bulls are thinking about, will result in an nba champion imo, with a very strong possiblity for it to be the first of many.


This quote was in a Lakers forum regarding a Bulls fans statement on why Pax would not give up Gordon, Deng, and 9th. It really makes me wonder what is going on. Quite interesting, but I don't buy the hype that we can change things around into a dynasty that quickly without having caproom or a high draft pick.


----------



## truebluefan

theanimal23 said:


> This quote was in a Lakers forum regarding a Bulls fans statement on why Pax would not give up Gordon, Deng, and 9th. It really makes me wonder what is going on. Quite interesting, but I don't buy the hype that we can change things around into a dynasty that quickly without having caproom or a high draft pick.


Interesting. He knows something! 

Continue with the speculation!


----------



## theanimal23

That pic is hilarious


----------



## theanimal23

Davidse said:


> basicaly, if it gets done - you're gonna do a worse kobe trade then you expect, and end up having a better overall roster than you expect.


In regards to what I had last posted. He isn't saying what it is due to confidentiality reasons. I'm okay with that. But man, what the hell does Pax have lined up after that. I don't think Pax should do this Kobe trade unless the other one would be agreed upon.

I definitely don't want to say something outrageous, but as a fan who can dream, what if he got KG and Kobe, LOL. 

Won't happen due to CBA reasons (likely) but what else can Pax do that would make us a contender for years?!


----------



## Snake

theanimal23 said:


> Sloth I agree with you.
> 
> Btw, does anyone know what Hinrich's outgoing salary value would be in a trade? I would not be surprised if he is moved instead of Benny b/c his salary might be higher.
> 
> A trade I posted a while back was:
> Gordon
> Noce
> Thabo
> Duhon
> Viktor
> 08 and 10 1sts
> 
> Now, I would do that if you make it #9 instead of two future 1sts too. They cut Viktor who is included as salary filler.
> 
> They get a borderline All-Star, a solid rotation player, a young prospect, and a high pick in a deep draft. Ideally I'd try to keep #9 or Thabo in that situation, but I think that is plenty of value for a superstar who is demanding to be traded to less than a handful of teams.


Sign me up for this. When I think about the Lakers team after the trade it's actually not bad. Might be a chance we could get this done. Only the Lakers might think that team doesn't have enough star power to fill the Staples Center (God forbid they should charge reasonable ticket prices).


----------



## kulaz3000

*Re: Mad "Max"*



Mr. T said:


>


This is solid GOLD!! Well done ....


----------



## Snake

*Re: Mad "Max"*



Mr. T said:


>


Did you make this?

IT'S....SO....DAMN....AWESOME!!!:worthy:


----------



## Ron Cey

> Originally Posted by *Davidse*
> i'm just saying the specific kobe trade (if it happens - there's no guarentee of that) will be somewhat of a disappointment for the bulls fan, an additional offseason move will actually shock him (not really in a good way imo), *BUT the end result and the other move the bulls are thinking about, will result in an nba champion imo, with a very strong possiblity for it to be the first of many.*


Is it against forum rules to mention that I have an erection right now? If it is against the rules, then I won't mention the erection that I have.


----------



## kulaz3000

Ron Cey said:


> Is it against forum rules to mention that I have an erection right now? If it is against the rules, then I won't mention the erection that I have.


This post is wrong on so many levels. I would have much rather read a Sloth post.. (rubs eyes)


----------



## truebluefan

Ron Cey said:


> Is it against forum rules to mention that I have an erection right now? If it is against the rules, then I won't mention the erection that I have.


LOL, if it's against the rules will it make it go away? I doubt it will. LOL


----------



## Snake

When is that damn video coming out!!!

As far as I'm concerned that will officially be the point of no return.


----------



## theanimal23

I wonder what other moves we can make with all that we would have left: Kirk, Thabo, Tyrus, and Big Ben.


----------



## truebluefan

theanimal23 said:


> I wonder what other moves we can make with all that we would have left: Kirk, Thabo, Tyrus, and Big Ben.


I am wondering myself.


----------



## Mr. T

Ron Cey said:


> Is it against forum rules to mention that I have an erection right now? If it is against the rules, then I won't mention the erection that I have.


Little Cey wants to...ok, never mind


----------



## truebluefan

I wonder if Wallace is in the deal and we get back K. Brown or Blount? How does that make us better?

We could resign PJ if he is not in the equation.


----------



## kulaz3000

Snake said:


> When is that damn video coming out!!!
> 
> As far as I'm concerned that will officially be the point of no return.


I really don't think there is much more than we already know. He curses alot and he wants Bynum shipped out. I don't think your going to get that much more fresh stuff in the other 20 seconds or so. 

Why is everyone making such a big deal out of him using profanities? Big deal. People are making it seem like he was a big saint or something, and that NBA players don't use bad language. Everyone should get a grip off their love for anything Kobe, and people wonder why Kobe is so retarded. Its because his constantly asking for attention and he always gets it, like the spoilt bratt that he is.

Kobe will not be a Bull.


----------



## theanimal23

Anyone watch SC? Apparently they talked about the Lakers and Bulls are talking but the Lakers want a Superstar back instead of our pieces. This makes sense with the KG to LA talk in a 3 way deal. But, this really makes me think the Lakers are more interested in $$$$$$$$$$ than winning games. I don't blame the owners for that as that is the goal of any Biz, but c'mon.

We must keep Tyrus or 9th.


----------



## truebluefan

theanimal23 said:


> Anyone watch SC? Apparently they talked about the Lakers and Bulls are talking but the Lakers want a Superstar back instead of our pieces. This makes sense with the KG to LA talk in a 3 way deal. But, this really makes me think the Lakers are more interested in $$$$$$$$$$ than winning games. I don't blame the owners for that as that is the goal of any Biz, but c'mon.
> 
> We must keep Tyrus or 9th.


I saw that, yes. 

Goes along with what those two posters were saying.


----------



## theanimal23

TBF, I did not watch it but did did they say anything else? Any mention of KG?


----------



## kulaz3000

theanimal23 said:


> Anyone watch SC? Apparently they talked about the Lakers and Bulls are talking but the Lakers want a Superstar back instead of our pieces. This makes sense with the KG to LA talk in a 3 way deal. But, this really makes me think the Lakers are more interested in $$$$$$$$$$ than winning games. I don't blame the owners for that as that is the goal of any Biz, but c'mon.
> 
> We must keep Tyrus or 9th.


There you go. Thats no suprising at all.

This is LA of all towns we're talking about. They need a player in return to continue to sell tickets, they arn't going to sell tickets with any of the players on our roster..

There safest bet is they are going to just trade within the western conference in hopes of getting someone like Amare. As i said before i don't see why they wouldn't just trade within their conference, since the Lakers arn't going to be in championship contention for awhile anyhow.


----------



## T.Shock

Was watching a local affiliate here in Washington. They mentioned that there is discussions right now about a three way deal with the Bulls, Lakers, and Washington.

Lakers would get Arenas
Bulls would get Kobe
Wizards would get the young player/pick/cap relief package.

Normally, I wouldn't believe this, but with the recent news that Arenas plans on opting out and the Wizards stuck in that mediocre level, I would not be suprised about this at all. I'm gonna hit up ESPN trade checker and see if I can come up with something.


----------



## DaBullz

truebluefan said:


> I dissagree. Gordon/nocioni..filler and our #9 and future #1's can beat that. We can add ending contracts...


Whoa.

Gordon, Nocioni, filler, and #9 probably isn't good enough to get us Amare on his own.


----------



## kulaz3000

T.Shock said:


> Was watching a local affiliate here in Washington. They mentioned that there is discussions right now about a three way deal with the Bulls, Lakers, and Washington.
> 
> Lakers would get Arenas
> Bulls would get Kobe
> Wizards would get the young player/pick/cap relief package.
> 
> Normally, I wouldn't believe this, but with the recent news that Arenas plans on opting out and the Wizards stuck in that mediocre level, I would not be suprised about this at all. I'm gonna hit up ESPN trade checker and see if I can come up with something.


I think the Lakers wouldn't mind a Arenas type of player. His a VERY good player but i wouldn't consider him a superstar, but he definitly has the personality to fit into the LA envoriment.


----------



## Snake

T.Shock said:


> Was watching a local affiliate here in Washington. They mentioned that there is discussions right now about a three way deal with the Bulls, Lakers, and Washington.
> 
> Lakers would get Arenas
> Bulls would get Kobe
> Wizards would get the young player/pick/cap relief package.
> 
> Normally, I wouldn't believe this, but with the recent news that Arenas plans on opting out and the Wizards stuck in that mediocre level, I would not be suprised about this at all. I'm gonna hit up ESPN trade checker and see if I can come up with something.


I think Chad Ford proposed that a few days ago. The Wizards might just decide to resign Arenas to a bigger contract when he opts out.



theanimal23 said:


> Anyone watch SC? Apparently they talked about the Lakers and Bulls are talking but the Lakers want a Superstar back instead of our pieces. This makes sense with the KG to LA talk in a 3 way deal. But, *this really makes me think the Lakers are more interested in $$$$$$$$$$ than winning games.* I don't blame the owners for that as that is the goal of any Biz, but c'mon.
> 
> We must keep Tyrus or 9th.


Bingo! That's exactly why Kobe wants out of LA.


----------



## BG7

Paxson is making a mistake imho if he does this trade.

Gordon/Deng have done so much at such a young age, and they're just scratching the surface. It will be a mistake to trade them.

Looking back, our young core was Hinrich/Gordon/Nocioni/Deng. Now we add Wallace here. We have a hole at one of the big man positions...we have our 6th man in Nocioni. 

Our team absolutely LACKED DEPTH, all year, and in the playoffs as well. Tyrus/Thabo showed flashes, Wallace was garbage for most of the year (hopefully feeling like he's truly contending reinvigorates him), PJ Brown was crap, and Nocioni was injured. We have FANTASY DEPTH.

And IMHO, we should cash in that FANTASY DEPTH, for our powerforward of the future.

Tyrus has the most impact out of these fantasy depth players, but it was still only a month and a series.

Tyrus Thomas, Thabo Sefolosha, #9 pick, and Chris Duhon (does he have value as a plyer, or expiring?), and PJ Brown as a potential expiring.

Those are the pieces that should be used to get us to that contender status by getting us our big.

Jermaine O'neal, Emeka Okafor, Pau Gasol, Kevin Garnett, Elton Brand (trust me on this, he's available), and Amare Stoudemire is the short list on this. (well okay, its a long list).

Bulls Trade:

Tyrus Thomas- 3.2 million
Chris Duhon- 3.0 million
Thabo Sefolosha- 1.7 million
Viktar Khryapa- 1.2 million
Adrian Griffin- 1.5 million
#9 pick

for 

Amare Stoudemire- 12.0 million
Eric Piatowski- 1.2 milllion

We HAVE to give up Adrian Griffin to get the deal done, but we get back Eric Piatowski for veteran leadership.

Amare is done in Phoenix. He has issues with others on the team. This is the type of ballsy move that Kerr will want to make as a new GM to show his worth. He gets his opportunity to build through the draft posessing #9, #24, and #29. They get the two guys they were enamored with before the draft last year in Thabo and Tyrus, and Duhon, the backup point guard they were looking for.

Bulls begin to shape up for next year:

PG-Kirk Hinrich
SG-Ben Gordon/Eric Piatowski
SF-Luol Deng/Andres Nocioni
PF-Amare Stoudemire/PJ Brown
C- Ben Wallace

For the first time since 2004-2005, we have a balanced roster. 

This is the trade that should be done. Screw Kobe.


----------



## truebluefan

bucher, "Lakers didn't take Kobe seriously! Kobe said he is not coming back. kobe went to Spain to talk to the owner, not the other way around.

Wont get equal value. Trade before the draft gets them better value than to wait until later on this summer or trade deadline. 

Video is on ESPN. Bulls and lakers ARE talking. Nothing serious yet."


----------



## Snake

truebluefan said:


> bucher, "Lakers didn't take Kobe seriously! Kobe said he is not coming back. kobe went to Spain to talk to the owner, not the other way around.
> 
> Wont get equal value. Trade before the draft gets them better value than to wait until later on this summer or trade deadline.
> 
> Video is on ESPN. Bulls and lakers ARE talking. Nothing serious yet."


I'm praying this ends up a Rasheed Wallace type steal.

Please, leave me to my delusions.:biggrin:


----------



## BG7

Looks like Kobe to Chicago is a done deal now according to Bucher. Its just a matter of what the Bulls give up, and what is the 3rd team to jump in.

This could work out good for the Bulls. Just set Gordon/Deng/Tyrus/Wallace as untouchable.

Then you use a combination of Thabo, Kirk, and draft picks.

Then it just becomes a matter of what team jumps in and takes the Bulls package.

I'd love to do something along the lines of:

Bulls Trade:

Kirk Hinrich
Thabo Sefolosha
#9 Pick

Bulls Receive:

Kobe Bryant

Lakers Trade:

Kobe Bryant

Lakers Receive:

Vince Carter

Nets Trade:

Vince Carter

Nets Receive:

Kirk Hinrich
Thabo Sefolsoha
#9 pick

as the trade. 

Carter/Arenas/Garnett/Amare are the four names that come to mind right away. Nets/Wizards would probably be the most likely to take the Bulls package.


----------



## MikeDC

Mebarak said:


> In RETROSPECT, we'll be shaking our heads at trading Ben Gordon, the #9 pick, and Tyrus for Kobe.
> 
> Bad trade. Paxson needs to hold firm, and bring the value down to Hinrich, Thabo, and draft picks.
> 
> No need to rush into this thing. Let Kobe deride the Lakers more, and make the incoming trade value less and less.


Or maybe in RETROSPECT, we'll be shaking our heads at walking away from a deal because Pax wouldn't even consider including Tyrus Freaking Thomas.

Jeez, you all, I think you need to conside the team that's left here.

1- Hinrich
2- Kobe, Thabo
3- Deng
4- MLE, Noc, LLE
5- Wallace

Boy, I don't see how we could get any closer to a championship team than that. Obviously we'd need to resign Noc and then use our exceptions to sign a couple big guys (pick one of Mikki Moore, Magloire, Oberto, Varejao, Skinner or Darko with the MLE and then one of Joe Smith, Austin Croshere, Jake Voskuhl or Marc Jackson with the LLE).

Obviously championships aren't won on paper, but I just can't imagine doing any better than that. And at the same time, I can't imagine Thomas takes such a huge leap up for us that he's the deal breaker.

I'm on record as being skeptical of Kobe and getting him, but if that's the deal we better get it done and not quibble before anyone else comes to their senses.


----------



## truebluefan

MikeDC said:


> Or maybe in RETROSPECT, we'll be shaking our heads at walking away from a deal because Pax wouldn't even consider including Tyrus Freaking Thomas.
> 
> Jeez, you all, I think you need to conside the team that's left here.
> 
> 1- Hinrich
> 2- Kobe, Thabo
> 3- Deng
> 4- MLE, Noc, LLE
> 5- Wallace
> 
> Boy, I don't see how we could get any closer to a championship team than that. Obviously we'd need to resign Noc and then use our exceptions to sign a couple big guys (pick one of Mikki Moore, Magloire, Oberto, Varejao, Skinner or Darko with the MLE and then one of Joe Smith, Austin Croshere, Jake Voskuhl or Marc Jackson with the LLE).
> 
> Obviously championships aren't won on paper, but I just can't imagine doing any better than that. And at the same time, I can't imagine Thomas takes such a huge leap up for us that he's the deal breaker.
> 
> I'm on record as being skeptical of Kobe and getting him, but if that's the deal we better get it done and not quibble before anyone else comes to their senses.


Count me in Mikedc.


----------



## HAWK23




----------



## kulaz3000

Mebarak said:


> Our team absolutely LACKED DEPTH, all year, and in the playoffs as well. Tyrus/Thabo showed flashes, Wallace was garbage for most of the year (hopefully feeling like he's truly contending reinvigorates him), PJ Brown was crap, and Nocioni was injured. We have FANTASY DEPTH.
> 
> And IMHO, we should cash in that FANTASY DEPTH, for our powerforward of the future.
> 
> Tyrus has the most impact out of these fantasy depth players, but it was still only a month and a series.


We had/have depth, and that wasn't the problem. Our problem was some of our players didn't have the experience playing in the NBA. Our problem was the lack of depth in the big positions. But overall we were probably one of the deepest teams in the league.



Mebarak said:


> Jermaine O'neal, Emeka Okafor, Pau Gasol, Kevin Garnett, *Elton Brand (trust me on this, he's available), *and Amare Stoudemire is the short list on this. (well okay, its a long list).


Quite frankly but NO, i will not just TRUST you. Please enlighten me on why we should trust you. Do you have a source? Or is it just Sloth intincts?

If it were in any way true, i would make it priority to trade for Brand more than any other player on that list including Kobe.





Mebarak said:


> This is the trade that should be done. Screw Kobe.


That agree with you on. EDIT - Watch the language, please Kobe!


----------



## T.Shock

I'm not sure how people here would feel about it, because I'm not sure if I even like it, but this works...

*Chicago receives:*
Kobe Bryant
Brendan Haywood
#19 Pick

*Washington receives:*
Ben Gordon
Ben Wallace
Kwame Brown

*Lakers receive:*
Gilbert Arenas
Darius Songalia
Etan Thomas
Viktor Khryapa
#9 Pick
2008 1st Round Pick(from Wizards protected Top-10 in '08, protected Top-3 in '09, unprotected in '10)

*Chicago Bulls*
PG-Kirk Hinrich(11.0)
SG-Kobe Bryant(19.5)
SF-Luol Deng(3.3)
PF-Tyrus Thomas(3.5)
C-Brendan Haywood(5.0)

Bench: Chris Duhon(3.2), Thabo Sefolosha(1.8), Andres Nocioni(6.5), Antonio McDyess(5.5) 
Total: 59.3 million plus the 19th pick

*Washington Wizards*
PG-Antonio Daniels(5.8)
SG-Ben Gordon(4.9)
SF-Caron Butler(8.2)
PF-Antwaun Jamison(16.4)
C-Ben Wallace(15.5)

Bench: Steve Blake(5.5), Jarvis Hayes(3.5), Thaddeus Young(1.7), Kwame Brown(9.1)
Total: 70.6 million with 25.5 million coming off the books after next season

*Los Angeles Lakers*
PG-Jordan Farmar(1.0)
SG-Gilbert Arenas(11.9)
SF-Jeff Green(2.7)
PF-Lamar Odom(13.5)
C-Andrew Bynum(2.2)

Bench: Sasha Vujacic(1.8), Maurice Evans(1.5), Vladimir Radmanovic(5.6), Etan Thomas(6.4)


----------



## BG7

HAWK23 said:


>


Yuck. Keep that off my Bulls.


----------



## kulaz3000

Mebarak said:


> Looks like Kobe to Chicago is a done deal now according to Bucher. Its just a matter of what the Bulls give up, and what is the 3rd team to jump in.
> 
> 
> Carter/Arenas/Garnett/Amare are the four names that come to mind right away. Nets/Wizards would probably be the most likely to take the Bulls package.


Im not sure how you interpreted what Bucher said as being a DONE DEAL with the Bulls aquiring Kobe. But you've said plenty worse in the past...

Regardless, im not sure about the Bulls wanting those four players, but i do see the Lakers being alot more enticed by any of those four stars before they even consider trading for anyone on the Bulls roster.


----------



## truebluefan

T.Shock said:


> I'm not sure how people here would feel about it, because I'm not sure if I even like it, but this works...
> 
> *Chicago receives:*
> Kobe Bryant
> Brendan Haywood
> #19 Pick
> 
> *Washington receives:*
> Ben Gordon
> Ben Wallace
> Kwame Brown
> 
> *Lakers receive:*
> Gilbert Arenas
> Darius Songalia
> Etan Thomas
> Viktor Khryapa
> #9 Pick
> 2008 1st Round Pick(from Wizards protected Top-10 in '08, protected Top-3 in '09, unprotected in '10)
> 
> *Chicago Bulls*
> PG-Kirk Hinrich(11.0)
> SG-Kobe Bryant(19.5)
> SF-Luol Deng(3.3)
> PF-Tyrus Thomas(3.5)
> C-Brendan Haywood(5.0)
> 
> Bench: Chris Duhon(3.2), Thabo Sefolosha(1.8), Andres Nocioni(6.5), Antonio McDyess(5.5)
> Total: 59.3 million plus the 19th pick
> 
> *Washington Wizards*
> PG-Antonio Daniels(5.8)
> SG-Ben Gordon(4.9)
> SF-Caron Butler(8.2)
> PF-Antwaun Jamison(16.4)
> C-Ben Wallace(15.5)
> 
> Bench: Steve Blake(5.5), Jarvis Hayes(3.5), Thaddeus Young(1.7), Kwame Brown(9.1)
> Total: 70.6 million with 25.5 million coming off the books after next season
> 
> *Los Angeles Lakers*
> PG-Jordan Farmar(1.0)
> SG-Gilbert Arenas(11.9)
> SF-Jeff Green(2.7)
> PF-Lamar Odom(13.5)
> C-Andrew Bynum(2.2)
> 
> Bench: Sasha Vujacic(1.8), Maurice Evans(1.5), Vladimir Radmanovic(5.6), Etan Thomas(6.4)


i like it, but would the other teams accept it?


----------



## T.Shock

Also, one of the more interesting aspects of this is that if Kobe ends up on the Bulls, he'll be back in the middle of a Bulls/Heat rivalry against duh duh duh Shaq.


----------



## BG7

Lakers management is DUMB.

They could simply take Hinrich/Sefolsoha/#9. Dump Vladman and Kobe.

Tank next year. Get a top draft pick. Steal away Elton Brand from the Clippers in free agency, and effectively go into the next season with:

PG-Kirk Hinrich
SG-OJ Mayo/Thabo Sefolosha
SF-Lamar Odom
PF-Elton Brand/Yi Jianlian
C- Andrew Bynum


----------



## Baklash

truebluefan said:


> bucher, "Lakers didn't take Kobe seriously! Kobe said he is not coming back. kobe went to Spain to talk to the owner, not the other way around.
> 
> Wont get equal value. Trade before the draft gets them better value than to wait until later on this summer or trade deadline.
> 
> Video is on ESPN. Bulls and lakers ARE talking. Nothing serious yet."


Glad to hear the news.

If we traded... Hinrich instead of Gordon, that would be horrible for us, IMO, even though Gordon is the better player offensively, Hinrich is the better player defensively... and we wouldn't need players playing out of position such as Gordon running the PG spot if we kept him.


----------



## Baklash

Mebarak said:


> Lakers management is DUMB.
> 
> They could simply take Hinrich/Sefolsoha/#9. Dump Vladman and Kobe.
> 
> Tank next year. Get a top draft pick. Steal away Elton Brand from the Clippers in free agency, and effectively go into the next season with:
> 
> PG-Kirk Hinrich
> SG-OJ Mayo/Thabo Sefolosha
> SF-Lamar Odom
> PF-Elton Brand/Yi Jianlian
> C- Andrew Bynum


Yeah, and I'm sure it'll all work out exactly how you said it will. :raised_ey


----------



## T.Shock

truebluefan said:


> i like it, but would the other teams accept it?


Well I think the Wizards get better all around actually. They fill 75% of Arenas with Gordon and plug up the C spot with Wallace. I think that team wins the Southeast next year. Gordon, Butler, Jamison, and Wallace isn't much different than what the Bulls had this year.

As for the Lakers, they get a low 1st rounder (from the Wizards), a lottery pick, and Arenas. I don't know if they can beat that for Kobe. They won't make the playoffs this year but with another lottery pick (potentially top 5 or top 10) plus the Wizards mid-round pick next year. Jesus. 

They could line up next year with...

PG-Farmar
SG-Arenas
SF-Green
PF-Odom
C-Bynum

Eric Gordon, DeVon Hardin, Radmanovic, Brian Cook, Etan Thomas

Then the next year Odom comes off the book as well as Cook's deal and the Lakers will probably be far enough under the cap to add KG. Farmar/Arenas/Green/KG/Bynum with Eric Gordon, an MLE SG/SF, Radmanovic, and DeVon Hardin off the bench. Up-tempo. Solid defensively. I wouldn't want to play that team.


----------



## truebluefan

Mebarak said:


> Lakers management is DUMB.
> 
> They could simply take Hinrich/Sefolsoha/#9. Dump Vladman and Kobe.
> 
> Tank next year. Get a top draft pick. Steal away Elton Brand from the Clippers in free agency, and effectively go into the next season with:
> 
> PG-Kirk Hinrich
> SG-OJ Mayo/Thabo Sefolosha
> SF-Lamar Odom
> PF-Elton Brand/Yi Jianlian
> C- Andrew Bynum


Sloth, no way in hell, and I say this respectfully, LA does this trade. No way. To get kobe you have to give up something. I am not saying Hinrich is nothing, but Gordon gives them scoring.


----------



## Snake

T.Shock said:


> I'm not sure how people here would feel about it, because I'm not sure if I even like it, but this works...
> 
> *Chicago receives:*
> Kobe Bryant
> Brendan Haywood
> #19 Pick
> 
> *Washington receives:*
> Ben Gordon
> Ben Wallace
> Kwame Brown
> 
> *Lakers receive:*
> Gilbert Arenas
> Darius Songalia
> Etan Thomas
> Viktor Khryapa
> #9 Pick
> 2008 1st Round Pick(from Wizards protected Top-10 in '08, protected Top-3 in '09, unprotected in '10)
> 
> *Chicago Bulls*
> PG-Kirk Hinrich(11.0)
> SG-Kobe Bryant(19.5)
> SF-Luol Deng(3.3)
> PF-Tyrus Thomas(3.5)
> C-Brendan Haywood(5.0)
> 
> Bench: Chris Duhon(3.2), Thabo Sefolosha(1.8), Andres Nocioni(6.5), Antonio McDyess(5.5)
> Total: 59.3 million plus the 19th pick
> 
> *Washington Wizards*
> PG-Antonio Daniels(5.8)
> SG-Ben Gordon(4.9)
> SF-Caron Butler(8.2)
> PF-Antwaun Jamison(16.4)
> C-Ben Wallace(15.5)
> 
> Bench: Steve Blake(5.5), Jarvis Hayes(3.5), Thaddeus Young(1.7), Kwame Brown(9.1)
> Total: 70.6 million with 25.5 million coming off the books after next season
> 
> *Los Angeles Lakers*
> PG-Jordan Farmar(1.0)
> SG-Gilbert Arenas(11.9)
> SF-Jeff Green(2.7)
> PF-Lamar Odom(13.5)
> C-Andrew Bynum(2.2)
> 
> Bench: Sasha Vujacic(1.8), Maurice Evans(1.5), Vladimir Radmanovic(5.6), Etan Thomas(6.4)


I wouldn't be against it. But I'm not necessarily for it either. If we could draft Splitter with the 19th and bring him over this season I'd feel slightly better.


----------



## kulaz3000

T.Shock said:


> Well I think the Wizards get better all around actually. They fill 75% of Arenas with Gordon and plug up the C spot with Wallace. I think that team wins the Southeast next year. Gordon, Butler, Jamison, and Wallace isn't much different than what the Bulls had this year.
> 
> As for the Lakers, they get a low 1st rounder (from the Wizards), a lottery pick, and Arenas. I don't know if they can beat that for Kobe. They won't make the playoffs this year but with another lottery pick (potentially top 5 or top 10) plus the Wizards mid-round pick next year. Jesus.
> 
> They could line up next year with...
> 
> PG-Farmar
> SG-Arenas
> SF-Green
> PF-Odom
> C-Bynum
> 
> Eric Gordon, DeVon Hardin, Radmanovic, Brian Cook, Etan Thomas
> 
> Then the next year Odom comes off the book as well as Cook's deal and the Lakers will probably be far enough under the cap to add KG. Farmar/Arenas/Green/KG/Bynum with Eric Gordon, an MLE SG/SF, Radmanovic, and DeVon Hardin off the bench. Up-tempo. Solid defensively. I wouldn't want to play that team.


Call me bitter but i don't want Haywood on my team regardless of who else we get. Kobe and Haywood are probably two of my most hated players in the league.


----------



## L.A. Guy

Mebarak said:


> Lakers management is DUMB.
> 
> They could simply take Hinrich/Sefolsoha/#9. Dump Vladman and Kobe.
> 
> Tank next year. Get a top draft pick. Steal away Elton Brand from the Clippers in free agency, and effectively go into the next season with:
> 
> PG-Kirk Hinrich
> SG-OJ Mayo/Thabo Sefolosha
> SF-Lamar Odom
> PF-Elton Brand/Yi Jianlian
> C- Andrew Bynum


Your right. Lakers managment is dumb. But you are even dumber to come up with this ridiculous scenario!:lol: :lol:


----------



## truebluefan

From a laker poster at another site on the bulls board:

Well, apparently the first offer has been offered from the Bulls. I think this is a low ball offer just to see where Mitch think is fair value. If we accept than Mitch needs to fired ASAP... 

Trade is, based off of ESPN Radio rumor: 

Gordon 
Nocioni 
Duhon 
Sweetney or Khryaph 
9th pick 
'08 1st 

for 

Kobe 
19th pick 

...horrible.


Actually I hate to tell him, it won't get much better than that.


----------



## kulaz3000

truebluefan said:


> From a laker poster at another site on the bulls board:
> 
> Well, apparently the first offer has been offered from the Bulls. I think this is a low ball offer just to see where Mitch think is fair value. If we accept than Mitch needs to fired ASAP...
> 
> Trade is, based off of ESPN Radio rumor:
> 
> Gordon
> Nocioni
> Duhon
> Sweetney or Khryaph
> 9th pick
> '08 1st
> 
> for
> 
> Kobe
> 19th pick
> 
> ...horrible.
> 
> 
> Actually I hate to tell him, it won't get much better than that.


Is that even possible salary wise? If so, i like it! I doubt that Mitch would do it, but if he get pushed by Kobe enough then sign me up!


----------



## T.Shock

truebluefan said:


> From a laker poster at another site on the bulls board:
> 
> Well, apparently the first offer has been offered from the Bulls. I think this is a low ball offer just to see where Mitch think is fair value. If we accept than Mitch needs to fired ASAP...
> 
> Trade is, based off of ESPN Radio rumor:
> 
> Gordon
> Nocioni
> Duhon
> Sweetney or Khryaph
> 9th pick
> '08 1st
> 
> for
> 
> Kobe
> 19th pick
> 
> ...horrible.
> 
> 
> Actually I hate to tell him, it won't get much better than that.


That is a pretty fair offer. Gordon as the principal piece. Nocioni as the 2nd tier guy. A solid backup PG in Duhon and two first round picks including a lottery pick.


----------



## BG7

I see what Paxson's going to do here.

He is starting high so the Lakers will be right there to make the trade right away. Then it will build up, until Kobe is feeling like he is gone out of LA, like an orgasm feeling almost, but not sexual. Then when its basically being reported as a done deal, Paxson will pull the carper out from under them, piss of Kobe, making him go on another tirade, forcing down the value to being PJ Browh + Kirk Hinrich + Chris Duhon + #9 for Kobe Bryant. 

The old pulling out the chair from behind the person trying to sit down should work quite well if Paxson plays his cards right.


----------



## T.Shock

Read a few pages back and I guess a credible source on that board said that there is a four-team deal in the works...

Minnesota gets: Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas, 9th pick, unnamed 4th player from another team(P.J. Brown is what I'm guessing)

Chicago gets: Kobe 

Lakers get: KG and somebody else

4th team gets: Kwame Brown and 19th pick

Apparently this guy is legit so take that for what it's worth.


----------



## T.Shock

Mebarak said:


> I see what Paxson's going to do here.
> 
> He is starting high so the Lakers will be right there to make the trade right away. Then it will build up, until Kobe is feeling like he is gone out of LA, like an orgasm feeling almost, but not sexual. Then when its basically being reported as a done deal, Paxson will pull the carper out from under them, piss of Kobe, making him go on another tirade, forcing down the value to being PJ Browh + Kirk Hinrich + Chris Duhon + #9 for Kobe Bryant.
> 
> The old pulling out the chair from behind the person trying to sit down should work quite well if Paxson plays his cards right.


I'm not quite sure your logic is sound. Why would you make your best offer first? That would be the exact opposite of the main principle of haggling.


----------



## L.A. Guy

Throw in Deng instead of sweetney or khryaph and I'll call it a deal!


----------



## truebluefan

LOL, Deng isn't a throw in.


----------



## kulaz3000

T.Shock said:


> I'm not quite sure your logic is sound. Why would you make your best offer first? That would be the exact opposite of the main principle of haggling.


That was the least of my worries about what he said. When you try to compare trade logic to sex(or atleast attempt to in a very awkward way), there is something very wrong going on there.


----------



## BG7

T.Shock said:


> I'm not quite sure your logic is sound. Why would you make your best offer first? That would be the exact opposite of the main principle of haggling.


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----------



## The ROY

T.Shock said:


> Read a few pages back and I guess a credible source on that board said that there is a four-team deal in the works...
> 
> Minnesota gets: Ben Gordon, Tyrus Thomas, 9th pick, unnamed 4th player from another team(P.J. Brown is what I'm guessing)
> 
> Chicago gets: Kobe
> 
> Lakers get: KG and somebody else
> 
> 4th team gets: Kwame Brown and 19th pick
> 
> Apparently this guy is legit so take that for what it's worth.


No way in hell is Mitch a good enough GM to aquire KG, Gordon, TT & the 9th pick. NO way.


----------



## truebluefan

The ROY said:


> No way in hell is Mitch a good enough GM to aquire KG, Gordon, TT & the 9th pick. NO way.


All they get is Garnett. They lose #`19, Kwame and Kobe. Minny gets our players a 4th team not revealed gets Brown and #19.


----------



## DaBullz

truebluefan said:


> From a laker poster at another site on the bulls board:
> 
> Well, apparently the first offer has been offered from the Bulls. I think this is a low ball offer just to see where Mitch think is fair value. If we accept than Mitch needs to fired ASAP...
> 
> Trade is, based off of ESPN Radio rumor:
> 
> Gordon
> Nocioni
> Duhon
> Sweetney or Khryaph
> 9th pick
> '08 1st
> 
> for
> 
> Kobe
> 19th pick
> 
> ...horrible.
> 
> 
> Actually I hate to tell him, it won't get much better than that.


Sweetney would be BYC, I do believe.

Bulls can't rade two consecutive 1st round picks.


----------



## Mr. T

Mebarak said:


> HAWK23 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yuck. Keep that off my Bulls.
Click to expand...

Good call Sloth, go with this one instead.


----------



## DaBullz

Kobe to Kirk:
"Gimme the ball, son"
(bounce, bounce, bounce)
"Gimme the ball, son"
(bounce, bounce, bounce)
"Gimme the ball, son"
(bounce, bounce, bounce)

Repeat, ad infinitum.


----------



## Five5even

MikeDC said:


> Here's a couple deals that work under the trade rules:
> *Deal 1*
> Bulls trade Wallace to the Lakers
> Bulls get Zach Randolph, Andrew Bynum
> 
> Pretty straightforward. We get size and scoring both. We swap an older guy for two younger guys who can both contribute immediately.
> 
> Lakers trade Kwame Brown, Vlad Radmanovic, Bynum
> Lakers get Ben Wallace
> 
> Again, how much do the Lakers want to put pieces around Kobe. This lets them keep Odom and with Wallace, Odom, Walton, Kobe, they've got 4 of 5 high quality players. They still have to figure out how to get a PG. Maybe the deal could be expanded to give them Duhon?
> 
> Blazers trade Randolph
> Blazers get Radmanovic, Kwame
> 
> This isn't an absolutely spectacular trade on the surface because Radmanovic isn't exactly in high demand (the Lakers, of course, want to be rid of him). But it gives the Blazers significant salary relief and Radmanovic is a big 3 who's a really good shooter. Sounds like a very good fit for them.


I assure you, this will never happen.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

None of these trades can happen until after the draft when free agency starts. And that is when the '07-08 salarys start, correct? If so, Kobe's salary jumps to almost $20 million.

For example:

Gordon
Thomas
Duhon
PJ Brown re-signed for $8 million

for

Kobe

Barely works...


----------



## The 6ft Hurdle

DaBullz said:


> Kobe to Kirk:
> "Gimme the ball, son"
> (bounce, bounce, bounce)
> "Gimme the ball, son"
> (bounce, bounce, bounce)
> "Gimme the ball, son"
> (bounce, bounce, bounce)
> 
> Repeat, ad infinitum.


Kobe obviously still doesn't know what it means to play within the team concept. He needs to learn how to get open.


----------



## theanimal23

As Bulls fans, our best hope is to make a trade post-draft. We could then use Noce or PJ, and perhaps the longer Kobe is angry at the Lakers, the further his value goes down.


----------



## step

> Kobe obviously still doesn't know what it means to play within the team concept. He needs to learn how to get open.


:rofl:


----------



## DengNabbit

Mr. T said:


> Good call Sloth, go with this one instead.



this post made me laugh in a computer lab


----------



## McBulls

DaBullz said:


> Sweetney would be BYC, I do believe.
> 
> *Bulls can't rade two consecutive 1st round picks.*





> Trade is, based off of ESPN Radio rumor:
> 
> Gordon
> Nocioni
> Duhon
> Sweetney or Khryaph
> 9th pick
> '08 1st
> 
> for
> 
> Kobe
> 19th pick


They can if they get the 19th pick back. I don't think Sweetney would be BYC if he only signed for the qualifying offer.

This rumor is close enough to be real.


----------



## T-Time

If that ESPN Radio rumor is true, which I doubt you do that deal in a heartbeat if your Chicago. Im glad Pax is exploring ALL options and Im glad that it was reported (On RealGM) that Pax says Deng and Tyrus are untouchable. I'd be crying my eyes out if Tyrus would be traded. I don't think he will be because Pax drafted him for a reason. I don't know what the trade will be but I hope it doesn't involve Deng or Tyrus, anyone else is up for grabs. 

CHI Trades:

Ben Gordon, Chris Duhon, #9 and a future 1st rounder (To Minn)

LA Trades:

Kobe Bryant (To Chi)

MINN Trades:

Kevin Garnett (To LA)

That deal is probably, well no it is soft if your the Bulls but its my IDEAL trade which probably means It'll never happen.


----------



## theanimal23

Thats along the lines of the deal I proposed back when Kobe first said he wanted out:

Gordon
Thabo
Noce
Duhon
2008 1st



Now this deal would have to be done after the deadline and without signing the #9 pick. I do not know if Noce would agree to go to LA unless he got the full MLE. Would they do that? Thats the tricky part.

I do think if the trade goes down, it will be very well along the likes of the rumored deal. 

Duhon is their starting PG, Gordon is their starting SG, and #9 is their future SF or PF (Yi?).

Our lineup is nice:
Kirk - Thabo
Kobe - Thabo-Pietrus
Deng - Pietrus
Tyrus - Joe Smith? -Malik
Big Ben - PJ 

I'd like to add some more depth and see if the Lakers would give us #19 in that deal, but I highly doubt it.

I do wish we could keep Duhon in that deal, but I can't be greedy.


----------



## theanimal23

T-Time said:


> If that ESPN Radio rumor is true, which I doubt you do that deal in a heartbeat if your Chicago. Im glad Pax is exploring ALL options and Im glad that it was reported (On RealGM) that Pax says Deng and Tyrus are untouchable. I'd be crying my eyes out if Tyrus would be traded. I don't think he will be because Pax drafted him for a reason. I don't know what the trade will be but I hope it doesn't involve Deng or Tyrus, anyone else is up for grabs.
> 
> CHI Trades:
> 
> Ben Gordon, Chris Duhon, #9 and a future 1st rounder (To Minn)
> 
> LA Trades:
> 
> Kobe Bryant (To Chi)
> 
> MINN Trades:
> 
> Kevin Garnett (To LA)
> 
> That deal is probably, well no it is soft if your the Bulls but its my IDEAL trade which probably means It'll never happen.



I totally agree with you. I so do not want to trade Tyrus. I really think he will be special and I think Pax drafted him and passed on Aldridge for the very same reason.

The deal you proposed is a major No Duh move from Chicago. I'd add another future 1st if need be.

Its basically taking last year's team and replacing Gordon and Duhon with Kobe. I do think Minny is not getting enough back for KG in this case.


----------



## McBulls

truebluefan said:


> Radio rumor:
> 
> Gordon
> Nocioni
> Duhon
> Sweetney or Khryaph
> 9th pick
> '08 1st
> 
> for
> 
> Kobe
> 19th pick


Now THAT'S a consolidation trade if I ever saw one!
If LA wants a star out of this let them make their own consolidation trade.


----------



## theanimal23

McBulls, I just realized in your post we get the 19th back. Wow that is hellish good value for us. That pick in addition to Kobe?

If a stud slips (Young(s)) or McRoberts or Jason Smith is around, that is some serious value at 19.


----------



## BG7

I'd rather give up Hinrich and Tyrus, and take Gordon, Thabo, and the pick out of there.

But then again, I'd rather we just draft Conley Jr., sign a big with the MLE, then have Kobe freaking Bryant in a Bulls jersey.


----------



## theanimal23

I think we can find a nice gem at 19 if we get it with Kobe. Imagine getting Javaris Crittenden or Nick Young at that pick. We use the MLE to get a solid big and 3pt shooter (Kapono?)


----------



## T-Time

But keep your eye out for Kirk, he may be the one traded when its all said in done. Funny how he mentions Deng, and Tyrus as "Untradeable" but doesn't say anything about Kirk who is a better PG than Duhon in terms of numbers. He may not be the "Point Guard" type but its obvious he's better than Du. I actually wouldn't mind losing our backcourt for a Kobe deal, knowing we get him and maybe put Thabo at the 1 guard spot. I would venture to say Kobe would be the primary ball handler late in games sorta like Dwade but think of a lineup of..

PG Thabo
SG Kobe
SF Deng
PF Tyrus
C Wallace

you lose your #9 pick though but think of the length we would have with that lineup? A 6'7 and 6'6 backcourt is nice, while you have Tyrus and Big Ben doing the dirty work down low. That would be sweet IMO.


----------



## McBulls

theanimal23 said:


> McBulls, I just realized in your post we get the 19th back. Wow that is hellish good value for us. That pick in addition to Kobe?
> 
> If a stud slips (Young(s)) or McRoberts or Jason Smith is around, that is some serious value at 19.


Splitter will be there at 19 I bet.


----------



## remlover

Was it ESPN Radio out of Chicago? As theanimal stated, getting the #19 is HUGE. 

With the MLE and the #19 we can fill in some holes.

If this was the initial trade proposal i can imagine the Lakers sitting on that offer for awhile.


----------



## theanimal23

I may be in the minority but I rather lose Gordon and Kirk than Gordon and Tyrus. Kirk is the better player but I think we can manage from the loss of Kirk than losing Tyrus on a weak frontline as it is.

We could get by with Duhon and Thabo at the point. At 19, we could draft a SG/SF to fill in the role of our backup 3. We could also add some depth upfront with that pick.

Ideally I love the trade already proposed, but I don't see LA doing that unless Kobe threatens to sit out and only come to Chicago. Then its easy and it will get done. 

I can deal with a Duhon/Thabo and Kobe backcourt. I think it would work. But if we are giving up #9 and a 2008 pick, I'd like to keep Noce.


----------



## BG7

theanimal23 said:


> I may be in the minority but I rather lose Gordon and Kirk than Gordon and Tyrus. Kirk is the better player but I think we can manage from the loss of Kirk than losing Tyrus on a weak frontline as it is.
> 
> We could get by with Duhon and Thabo at the point. At 19, we could draft a SG/SF to fill in the role of our backup 3. We could also add some depth upfront with that pick.
> 
> Ideally I love the trade already proposed, but I don't see LA doing that unless Kobe threatens to sit out and only come to Chicago. Then its easy and it will get done.
> 
> I can deal with a Duhon/Thabo and Kobe backcourt. I think it would work. But if we are giving up #9 and a 2008 pick, I'd like to keep Noce.


Kirk and Tyrus is the pair you want to lose if you have to, while retaining Nocioni off the bench.

Thats the problem with this board. Just throwing everything around. The younger the player, the more value. Ben Gordon is our best player. He should be marked untouchable in a trade.

Tyrus only played good for a month. Love him, but Chandler and Curry were able to do that too their rookie years. 

The #19 pick is so valuable? I doubt we get a player as good as Nocioni there.

I'd do Hinrich, Tyrus, #9 as the principle of a trade for Kobe.


----------



## T-Time

Mebarak said:


> Kirk and Tyrus is the pair you want to lose if you have to, while retaining Nocioni off the bench.
> 
> Thats the problem with this board. Just throwing everything around. The younger the player, the more value. Ben Gordon is our best player. He should be marked untouchable in a trade.
> 
> Tyrus only played good for a month. Love him, but Chandler and Curry were able to do that too their rookie years.
> 
> The #19 pick is so valuable? I doubt we get a player as good as Nocioni there.
> 
> I'd do Hinrich, Tyrus, #9 as the principle of a trade for Kobe.


If we lose Tyrus we essentially lose what frontcourt we had. PJ won't be back with us next year and if Tyrus is gone It would kill me to see Malik Allen be the starting PF. Also wasn't Tyrus' early struggles expected? Atleast from me it was, others can chime in to if they'd like but we got this guy not to produce right away but he was a "Gamble" if you will by the Bulls. We were in such good position being a playoff team of last year that we could risk making a player like Tyrus a long term project. IMO I don't think Paxson will just give up on that, its only been a year. 

Also in that last month or so, how many rookies can you say made a bigger impact on there teams than Tyrus? Brandon Roy maybe? I mean this kid could be something special and Im not willing to throw it all away for a soon to be 30 year old Kobe Bryant even if he's the best player in the league. Also I just thought I'd throw in, Ben Gordon is not our best player, Deng is and he's the most complete (Both sides). Gordon is a pure scorer, that is it.


----------



## theanimal23

Sloth, the only reason why I would trade Kirk over Ben for Kobe would be if his higher salary was able to save us an extra piece.


----------



## Mr. T

Mebarak said:


> I'd rather give up Hinrich and Tyrus, and take Gordon, Thabo, and the pick out of there.
> 
> But then again, I'd rather we just draft Conley Jr., sign a big with the MLE, then have Kobe freaking Bryant in a Bulls jersey.


Wow, you'd rather give up Hinrich? Gee, I would have never guessed! 

You've posted that more in the last 2 weeks than my total post count over the last few years.

Kobe in *a* Bulls jersey or Kobe in this *a*vailable Bulls jersey?










And btw, you don't seem to have any problem posting about Bryant in a Bulls jersey when you're dealing Hinrich.

C'mon Sloth, first Curry and now its looking like Gordon. Why not just accept Kobe as your next Boo?


----------



## McBulls

PG Hinrich 2nd round pick
SG Bryant Sefolosha
SF Deng Khryapa
PF Brown Thomas Splitter
C Wallace Splitter Mihm

Bulls would be favorites to win it all.


----------



## T-Time

McBulls said:


> PG Hinrich 2nd round pick
> SG Bryant Sefolosha
> SF Deng Khryapa
> PF Brown Thomas Splitter
> C Wallace Splitter Mihm
> 
> Bulls would be favorites to win it all.


I'm almost positive that trade wouldn't work under the salary cap. If Gordon is the premiere player in this trade his contract isn't even close to Kobe's. Its highly unlikely considering we still end up with Kirk,Tyrus,Deng, and Wallace.


----------



## BG7

I'd rather just keep Hinrich, and our pick, and Tyrus, and let Kobe rot away in LA.

The guy is a complete and utter douschebag. His entire personality is just flawed. If Paxson is dumb enough to trade for Kobe, biting the bullet, would be giving up Hinrich, because he is a much lesser player than Gordon. 

In reality, Paxson should be looking at making a move for Gasol, Brand, Okafor, Amare, or Garnett, all available to semi available bigs, that we could give up far less for, and who would compliment our two best players much better than Kobe would. 

I don't want Kobe in a Bulls uniform. I'd rather be watching James Posey in a Bulls jersey than Kobe Bryant.


----------



## T-Time

Its more likely Kobe stays in LA if Deng and Tyrus aren't involved IF and only if Minnesota is involved because of KG going to LA. I find it hard to believe that if two of the teams are giving away their best players the Bulls would certainly have to, which would be Luol Deng. In my personal opinion, I think a Deng/Kobe combo would be absolutely nasty. If you still have Tyrus Thomas, he would feed off of Kobe because of his vision. When Kobe drives, players come to help, leaving Tyrus open for the wide open dunk.


----------



## theanimal23

Kobe should be a baby and absolutely demand a trade to Chicago and not to ever play again for LA. Then he would be happy coming to us dirt cheap and we would win it all. Happy Ending.


----------



## King Joseus

theanimal23 said:


> Kobe should be a baby and absolutely demand a trade to Chicago and not to ever play again for LA. Then he would be happy coming to us dirt cheap and we would win it all. Happy Ending.


Works for me!


----------



## theanimal23

KJ who is in the avy?


----------



## BG7

Keeley Hazell.....am I correct?


----------



## Mr. T

Mebarak said:


> I don't want Kobe in a Bulls uniform. I'd rather be watching James Posey in a Bulls jersey than Kobe Bryant.


:nonono:


----------



## T-Time

Mr. T said:


> :nonono:


Posey wishes he had Ben's "Guns" hehe


----------



## Snake

Mr. T said:


> :nonono:


I can see it now. "Bulls on the break...Deng for the layup...OH MY GOD! Posey just broke Deng's arm, Why would he do that to his own teammate?!?!?!":eek8::mad2:

If Posey was on the Bulls, lets just say I'd be hoping for a career-ending injury so I wouldn't have to watch him.:rant: :curse:


----------



## theanimal23

Mr. T said:


> :nonono:


LOL x10


----------



## bullybullz

T.Shock said:


> I'm not sure how people here would feel about it, because I'm not sure if I even like it, but this works...
> 
> *Chicago receives:*
> Kobe Bryant
> Brendan Haywood
> #19 Pick
> 
> *Washington receives:*
> Ben Gordon
> Ben Wallace
> Kwame Brown
> 
> *Lakers receive:*
> Gilbert Arenas
> Darius Songalia
> Etan Thomas
> Viktor Khryapa
> #9 Pick
> 2008 1st Round Pick(from Wizards protected Top-10 in '08, protected Top-3 in '09, unprotected in '10)
> 
> *Chicago Bulls*
> PG-Kirk Hinrich(11.0)
> SG-Kobe Bryant(19.5)
> SF-Luol Deng(3.3)
> PF-Tyrus Thomas(3.5)
> C-Brendan Haywood(5.0)
> 
> Bench: Chris Duhon(3.2), Thabo Sefolosha(1.8), Andres Nocioni(6.5), Antonio McDyess(5.5)
> Total: 59.3 million plus the 19th pick
> 
> *Washington Wizards*
> PG-Antonio Daniels(5.8)
> SG-Ben Gordon(4.9)
> SF-Caron Butler(8.2)
> PF-Antwaun Jamison(16.4)
> C-Ben Wallace(15.5)
> 
> Bench: Steve Blake(5.5), Jarvis Hayes(3.5), Thaddeus Young(1.7), Kwame Brown(9.1)
> Total: 70.6 million with 25.5 million coming off the books after next season
> 
> *Los Angeles Lakers*
> PG-Jordan Farmar(1.0)
> SG-Gilbert Arenas(11.9)
> SF-Jeff Green(2.7)
> PF-Lamar Odom(13.5)
> C-Andrew Bynum(2.2)
> 
> Bench: Sasha Vujacic(1.8), Maurice Evans(1.5), Vladimir Radmanovic(5.6), Etan Thomas(6.4)


COUNT ME IN!!!


----------



## bullybullz

DaBullz said:


> Kobe to Kirk:
> "Gimme the ball, son"
> (bounce, bounce, bounce)
> "Gimme the ball, son"
> (bounce, bounce, bounce)
> "Gimme the ball, son"
> (bounce, bounce, bounce)
> 
> Repeat, ad infinitum.


LOL


----------



## DaBullz

Dealing Bryant may not be so hard for Lakers

By PA SportsTicker


So where be Kobe? 

Despite Los Angeles Lakers coach Phil Jackson's declarations, it does not look like Tinseltown is going to be part of Kobe Bryant's future. 

The manifesto delivered by Lakers owner Jerry Buss over the weekend regarding the direction of the team was significant in its exclusion of Bryant, who is the only asset that gives the team any direction. 


And although Bryant backtracked on his initial desire to get outta town, his silence following a reported meeting with Buss and a statement posted on his website speaks volumes. 

Bryant has four years and $88 million remaining on his current contract. He can opt out after the 2008-09 season and also has a no-trade clause, which means he can be very specific about his next destination. 

That makes matters difficult for the Lakers, who must be feeling a bit of deja vu, having gone through this with Shaquille O'Neal three summers ago? By the way, how did that work out? 

There is an old NBA axiom that says the team that gets the best player in a trade gets the better of the trade. In dealing Bryant, Lakers GM Mitch Kupchak will be working from a position of weakness but can take some steps to maximize what he gets in return. 

Kupchak will be in much better bargaining position before the draft June 28. Teams will still have their first-round picks rather than the rights to a rookie. Veterans with expiring contracts will have much more value. 

Although other cities have been mentioned, Bryant reportedly is interested in only three destinations. Here are some prospective deals that could be done with those teams: 

1. PHOENIX. This destination would require the least number of aspirin, because the Suns are over the luxury tax threshold and are looking for ways to get out from under some of their long-term contracts while continuing to contend for a championship. 

It is no secret that the Suns are listening to offers for All-Star forward Shawn Marion, who is on the books for two more years and $33.5 million. Phoenix also has the 24th and 29th picks in the draft. 

A package of Marion and an extra piece such as Marcus Banks or James Jones with the draft picks would work. The Suns also could put together Boris Diaw ($9 million) and Leandro Barbosa ($5.6 million) for Bryant and entertain a separate offer for Marion, one with an expiring contract and a young player with a high ceiling. 

However, it is unrealistic that the Lakers would trade Bryant within the Western Conference, let alone the Pacific Division. Remember, this was the team that moved Shaquille O'Neal to the other side of the country. 

"Are you kidding? That isn't going to happen, even if we offered them the Grand Canyon as part of the deal," Suns coach Mike D'Antoni told the East Valley Tribune. 

2. ORLANDO. There was a report that said Rob Pelinka, Bryant's agent, had contacted the Magic to determine their interest in his client. 

It is hard to imagine the Lakers taking back any assortment that does not include All-Star center Dwight Howard, whom the Magic certainly would be looking to pair with Bryant as their long-term 1-2 punch. However, there are other options. 

If they deal before July 1, the Magic could move Grant Hill's expiring $16.9 million salary, point guard Jameer Nelson ($1.2 million) and combo guard J.J. Redick ($1.86 million). That would give the Lakers some youth in the backcourt and the cap room to be a player in free agency this summer, perhaps for Vince Carter. 

Orlando does not have a first-round pick and probably would have to throw in its 2008 pick to make it more realistic. And all of that also assumes Bryant actually wants to play in Mickey Mouse's backyard. 


3. NEW YORK. This is not as unrealistic as it initially sounds, because (a) Bryant loves playing in Madison Square Garden and (b) the Knicks have the pieces that can make it work. 

Isiah Thomas could build a package around Jamal Crawford ($7.2 million) that also includes budding big men David Lee ($926,000) and Channing Frye ($2.325 million) and a combination of spare parts Nate Robinson ($1.185 million), Mardy Collins ($867,000) and Randolph Morris ($810,000). 

Or, the Lakers could toss in a spare part such as Maurice Evans or Brian Cook and take back Crawford, Lee or Frye and Steve Francis ($16.44 million), whose salary comes off the cap after the 2008-09 season. Two years is a long time for Lakers fans to wait, but if the prize is James or Wade, it will be worth it. 

Either deal would have to include New York's first-round pick. 

4. CHICAGO. This is the most realistic destination for Bryant, because it satisfies a number of fronts. The Bulls play in a large market, have enough depth that a deal for Bryant would not ransack the roster and could contend right away, especially in the Eastern Conference. 

Any discussion would have to start with the inclusion of both Luol Deng ($2.6 million) and Ben Gordon ($3.8 million) along with Chicago's first-round pick. That leaves a gap of nearly $10 million to bridged, but there are a number of ways that can be resolved. 

One would be to swing the deal before the draft and include the expiring $8 million contract of P.J. Brown. Another would be to engage the sign-and-trade mechanism with Andres Nocioni, who is a restricted free agent this summer and will be looking for more than the $3 million he made last season. 

The Bulls also have plenty of spare parts, including Tyrus Thomas (not likely), Thabo Sefolosha (certainly), Chris Duhon (possibly) and Mike Sweetney (maybe), all of whom make between $1.7 million and $3.3 million. 

A roster of Gordon, Deng, Nocioni, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Kwame Brown, Vladimir Radmanovic, Ronny Turiaf, Sasha Vujacic, Jordan Farmar, two top-20 picks and about $8 million in cap room isn't exactly a bare cupboard. 

In fact, all that team needs is a veteran star to lead the way. 


Someone like Bryant.


----------



## DengNabbit

DaBullz said:


> 4. CHICAGO. This is the most realistic destination for Bryant, because it satisfies a number of fronts. The Bulls play in a large market, have enough depth that a deal for Bryant would not ransack the roster and could contend right away, especially in the Eastern Conference.
> 
> Any discussion would have to start with the inclusion of both Luol Deng ($2.6 million) and Ben Gordon ($3.8 million) along with Chicago's first-round pick. That leaves a gap of nearly $10 million to bridged, but there are a number of ways that can be resolved.
> 
> One would be to swing the deal before the draft and include the expiring $8 million contract of P.J. Brown. Another would be to engage the sign-and-trade mechanism with Andres Nocioni, who is a restricted free agent this summer and will be looking for more than the $3 million he made last season.
> 
> The Bulls also have plenty of spare parts, including Tyrus Thomas (not likely), Thabo Sefolosha (certainly), Chris Duhon (possibly) and Mike Sweetney (maybe), all of whom make between $1.7 million and $3.3 million.
> 
> A roster of Gordon, Deng, Nocioni, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Kwame Brown, Vladimir Radmanovic, Ronny Turiaf, Sasha Vujacic, Jordan Farmar, two top-20 picks and about $8 million in cap room isn't exactly a bare cupboard.
> 
> In fact, all that team needs is a veteran star to lead the way.
> 
> 
> Someone like Bryant.



Wow, Gordon, Deng, Nocioni and the #9 going to LA. Unreal. The other three offers listed don't even come close to ours in worth, which means we're bidding against no one. Especially if Suns ain't happening.

To give it a look though, i'm going to modify and assume Noc stays here. Looking at our potential lineup in that scenario: 

Kirk
Kobe
Noc
Tyrus 
Ben W.


We'd absolutely need to get some bench help with the exception, maybe a Mikki Moore. Thabo would have to be a sixth man SF/SG. 

Still, in adding our "finisher" in Bryant, I feel like this team would somehow be about right where we're at now. The above starting lineup actually has more three-point shooting than our current one...but i could see us being worse defensively. 

The above lineup looks capable of taking the East...but easily forgotten is how much we'd miss Deng's rebounding and defense.


----------



## bullybullz

DengNabbit said:


> Wow, Gordon, Deng, Nocioni and the #9 going to LA. Unreal. The other three offers listed don't even come close to ours in worth, which means we're bidding against no one. Especially if Suns ain't happening.
> 
> To give it a look though, i'm going to modify and assume Noc stays here. Looking at our potential lineup in that scenario:
> 
> Kirk
> Kobe
> Noc
> Tyrus
> Ben W.
> 
> 
> We'd absolutely need to get some bench help with the exception, maybe a Mikki Moore. Thabo would have to be a sixth man SF/SG.
> 
> Still, in adding our "finisher" in Bryant, I feel like this team would somehow be about right where we're at now. The above starting lineup actually has more three-point shooting than our current one...but i could see us being worse defensively.
> 
> The above lineup looks capable of taking the East...but easily forgotten is how much we'd miss Deng's rebounding and defense.


Yeah really. Why do we have to give up so much while the other three teams don't?? Biased article.


----------



## SALO

DaBullz said:


> Dealing Bryant may not be so hard for Lakers
> 
> By PA SportsTicker


The Orlando trade is laughable. How does the author include Grant Hill (and PJ Brown for that matter) as expiring contracts when those two are free agents? He says they can be included as long as the deal gets done by July 1st?

Even the Suns coach says a Kobe trade isn't happening, so cross them off the short list. 

I love how we give up our TWO BEST PLAYERS PLUS A LOTTERY PICK in this year's draft while the other teams on the list get to keep their best players and not have to give up any draft picks at all. :laugh:


----------



## SALO

*Paxson says Lakers have not contacted Bulls about Bryant *



> Bulls general manager John Paxson denied an ESPN report that the Lakers have contacted the Bulls regarding a possible trade for Kobe Bryant.
> 
> While discussing Bryant’s situation on ESPNews, NBA analyst Ric Bucher said the Lakers “have talked to the Chicago Bulls.” Reached by e-mail late Tuesday, Paxson wrote that the report was not true.
> 
> Of course, whether the Bulls could work out an equitable trade for the high-scoring Lakers star is questionable. There have been rumors of a three-way trade involving Boston that would send Paul Pierce to Los Angeles, Bryant to the Bulls and unknown assets to the Celtics.
> 
> To even match Bryant’s $19.5-million salary, the Bulls would most likely either have to include Ben Wallace in any trade, which would leave them without a center, or wait until after July 15 to toss in one or more of their current free agents in a sign-and-trade transaction.


----------



## bullybullz

SALO said:


> *Paxson says Lakers have not contacted Bulls about Bryant *


Great call.


----------



## Mr. T

*Who will get Kobe?*

---


----------



## Mr. T

---


----------



## truebluefan

Hmm interesting take on Dallas.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

Mr. T said:


> :nonono:


I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.


----------



## theanimal23

Italian Newspaper: Kobe says he'd *like (or plan)* to play for the Bulls. 

Anyone know Italian? Does he hope to play here or will play here? Big difference.

http://espresso.repubblica.it/dettaglio-local/Kobe-a-Reggio-dove-ha-vissuto-l-infanzia/1653507


----------



## Good Hope

theanimal23 said:


> Italian Newspaper: Kobe says he'd *like (or plan)* to play for the Bulls.
> 
> Anyone know Italian? Does he hope to play here or will play here? Big difference.
> 
> http://espresso.repubblica.it/dettaglio-local/Kobe-a-Reggio-dove-ha-vissuto-l-infanzia/1653507


I just love these internet translation services....:lol: 



> Kobe to Reggio, where infancy has lived
> 
> Mauro Grasselli
> 
> “I will finish to the career Hour here step to the Chicago Bulls”
> One nun of the Saint school Vincenzo: “Excuses she where it is going”
> 
> 
> REGGIO. The Kobe cyclone Bryant has sent in fibrillation the reggiani baskettofili. The Nba star, cestisticamente grown in the juvenile ones of the Reggiana Basketball, yesterday is returned to Montecavolo in order see again and to photograph the house in which the father lived together to the family ( Joe to year-end Eighty played in the first square biancorossa). Then it has visited Reggio, before leaving for Milan.
> Bryant is returned to the old Palabigi of via Guasco, where they give child played with the square Propaganda trained from Mauro Cantarella. The Nba star has visited also the Saint school Vincenzo, attended in the reggiani years. Them number 1 to the world has been at first “intercepted” from a nun (“Excuses she where is going? ”, it has asked the marcantonio black. The answer: “They are a player of basket American, I have studied here from small…”), then Kobe has been assaulted from the boys of the school, between which Francisco White-haired, winning coolness of the Italian championship of “3 against 3” together to the other biancorossi Francisco Gonzaga, Nicolò Grisanti and David Lusuardi.
> “They are made to make an autograph Me White-haired - tells Francisco, that in morning it has supported the examination of third average - and I have taken it some photos with the cellular one. Then I have gone around in center together he”. In fact Bryant has covered the way Emilia, stopping itself in front of the display windows of some storees, then has chosen secondary roads in order to avoid the ressa of the fans, more and more numerous.
> “And' be of an extreme gentility - Paul Fornili, gotten passionate of basket and large fan of Kobe comments -. It has been stopped to speak with all, among other things in an optimal Italian, and it has been made to photograph without problems and some attitude from star”.
> Bryant, in vacation in Italy, the late one matinata has finished the visit to the places of infancy and has left for Milan, where they attended it engagements with Nike. “I will return to Reggio - it has assured Kobe before leaving - in order to finish the career in the Reggiana Basketball, the square in which I have played from child. I will return to prescind from the economic aspect”. The Nba star has confirmed the relative voices to the intention to leave the Los Angeles Lakers: “I want to play with the Chicago Bulls”. Bryant is legacy to the Lakers for other four vintage years (a settennale contract from 136 million dollars), but she has the clear ideas. “More task to the future and more I convince that I and the Lakers have two different visions. When I love something as well as how much I love the Lakers, it is hard to imagine of being from an other part. But the only thing that I will not never sacrifice, when is spoken about basket, is the Victoria”.


And, I should mention, if the service is to be trusted, in the one clear sentence from the entire text:

“I want to play with the Chicago Bulls”.


----------



## T.Shock

If Pax can't get Kobe I'd like to see him throw this at Memphis and the Knicks...

Chicago sends:
Ben Gordon
Tyrus Thomas
Chris Duhon
Viktor Khryapa

Chicago receives:
Pau Gasol
Mardy Collins

New York sends:
Channing Frye
David Lee
Mardy Collins
Nate Robinson

New York receives:
Ben Gordon
Hakim Warrick

Memphis sends:
Pau Gasol
Hakim Warrick

Memphis receives:
Tyrus Thomas
David Lee
Channing Frye
Chris Duhon
Nate Robinson
Viktor Khryapa
2008 1st Round Pick(Bulls)
2008 1st Round Pick(Knicks)

Haha. I just didn't want to start a new thread for this utterly ludicrous and terrible trade idea. But it gets us Gasol without Deng. Woo-hoo.


----------



## BG7

But we give up Gordon...the player that makes the most sense, and benefits the most from playing with a premier big man.

Anyhow, Ben Gordon doesn't think the Bulls will trade for Kobe. He thinks they will just make their pick at #9, sign some free agents, and try to make a deeper run into the playoffs. 

Also, Thabo and Tyrus have become workout buddies with Deng/Gordon. 

Andres Nocioni is currently in Argentina.

Ben Gordon's 10 o'clock is pilates.

All those things considered, a trade for Kobe Bryant doesn't make sense given the circumstances.


----------



## theanimal23

Sloth, tell me your facts regarding Tyrus and Thabo becoming workout buddies with Deng and Gordon is legit. As in, you talked to Ben Gordon on AIM and he actually said this. That is some incredible news for us Bulls fans if true. Because after the whole lets hope Eddy and Tyson fulfill their potential, this is the best news we can get for our raw yet talented rookies. If this is the case, then yeah, we might not need to make changes and just hope we get a very solid player at 9 and we are set for the next decade.


----------



## Snake

T.Shock said:


> If Pax can't get Kobe I'd like to see him throw this at Memphis and the Knicks...
> 
> Chicago sends:
> Ben Gordon
> Tyrus Thomas
> Chris Duhon
> Viktor Khryapa
> 
> Chicago receives:
> Pau Gasol
> Mardy Collins
> 
> New York sends:
> Channing Frye
> David Lee
> Mardy Collins
> Nate Robinson
> 
> New York receives:
> Ben Gordon
> Hakim Warrick
> 
> Memphis sends:
> Pau Gasol
> Hakim Warrick
> 
> Memphis receives:
> Tyrus Thomas
> David Lee
> Channing Frye
> Chris Duhon
> Nate Robinson
> Viktor Khryapa
> 2008 1st Round Pick(Bulls)
> 2008 1st Round Pick(Knicks)
> 
> Haha. I just didn't want to start a new thread for this utterly ludicrous and terrible trade idea. But it gets us Gasol without Deng. Woo-hoo.


I hate to agree with Mebarak about Gordon, but if we were to get Gasol his shooting would become even more valuable.

Gasol has been saying things like he wants Memphis to put a team around him that can compete(where have I heard this already?). Memphis isn't about to spend a lot of money on the market, and they've found the guy to replace West as GM.

Maybe Pax can make a draft night trade to send the pick and filler to Memphis for Gasol. Not sure if we could do it on draft night but the pick would be a cheap player for 4 years and Du and Kryappa would provide salary relief as Memphis dumps their biggest contract. I would love that maybe more than a Kobe trade. It would be an outright steal.


----------



## BG7

theanimal23 said:


> Sloth, tell me your facts regarding Tyrus and Thabo becoming workout buddies with Deng and Gordon is legit. As in, you talked to Ben Gordon on AIM and he actually said this. That is some incredible news for us Bulls fans if true. Because after the whole lets hope Eddy and Tyson fulfill their potential, this is the best news we can get for our raw yet talented rookies. If this is the case, then yeah, we might not need to make changes and just hope we get a very solid player at 9 and we are set for the next decade.


This is what Paxson has been saying about the change of culture of the franchise.

Ben Gordon and Luol Deng are the foundation of a hardworking franchise. But these guys do not just have competitive drive, they are also two of the most intelligent players in the league, and two of the nicest players in the league. So they have combined to form a completely positive environment for young players to practice and develop in. The results of Gordon and Deng's improvements show the merits of this. Now those old reports about Ben Gordon playing exclusively in New York, and being morning workout buddies with Isiah Thomas or whatever are completely false. Ben does not own ANY property in New York of his own. He has boughten houses for his sisters, mother, and aunt. As well as he has boughten property for a community center and day care in his old neighborhood. He only goes to New York to check on those properties he has put in place, and he stays at his mothers house when he is visiting in New York. He is not neighbors with Isiah Thomas. He spends almost all of his time in Chicago, where his two best friends from childhood also live. One is Ben's adviser of sorts, and the other is attending Depaul University.

Anyhow, as far as the rest of the core.

Ben Wallace was originally an isolationist with the team, but grew closer to Tyrus and PJ as the season went down. He has been a no show as far as the Berto is concerned this summer. 

Andres Nocioni, like I said, has been in Argentina. He is on real good terms on with Ben, Luol, Kirk, and Du, the guys he grew up with in Chicago. He is weary of the rookies. Has yet to develop any chemistry with Tyrus/Thabo. STill time to do that in training camp. With Tyrus most likely getting the starting powerforward nod, and Nocioni staying in the same role of 6th man, there most likely will not be that competitive dislike to defer to Tyrus, since they will not be competing for the same minutes. 

Kirk Hinrich has also been a Berto no show so far. Thats not a big deal though, as he routinely comes a week or so into July. Obviously his Team USA commitments will affect when he comes in. He gets along good with the young guys and the main core as well.

Chris Duhon, not sure what to make of him. He is always around the Berto. He gets along with everybody (apparently not the coaching staff). I'd just assume he walks around the Berto in a drunk stupor. 

Anyhow, Thabo was a no worry. We all knew he was going to be working out big. Hopefully with added strength, he will be able to finish (he is probably our best penetrator, he just never finished), and add a consistent jumpshot (which he already showed signs of last year.).

Tyrus is the big one. Its nice to see he didn't go down South, but stayed in Chicago. Just work on a jumpshot and strength, and like Luol did last year, he should get the nod for the starting spot coming into camp in great form.

That bodes well for our #9 pick. Spencer Hawes and Joakim Noah both seem like guys that would fit in well with the current team. Not so sure about Yi. I'd prefer a player that was staying in Chicago (most likely Hawes would be a Berto rat), rather than one in China. 

But the most room to go wrong for next year is Ben Wallace. It appears like he no longer wants to put in the work to be great (anyone else notice how much smaller her muscles were last year compared to in D-town). He used to be a gym rat in Detroit, always in the weight room with Chauncey. Not the case in Chicago. The core really doesn't seem to like him overall too much. They all just kind of had a respect for him for his reputation. 

I expect another Skiles and Ben Wallace clash after Skiles benches Wallace, after Wallace comes into camp out of shape again, and isn't able to compete at a high level consistently ONCE AGAIN.


----------



## Good Hope

Mebarak said:


> This is what Paxson has been saying about the change of culture of the franchise.
> 
> Ben Gordon and Luol Deng are the foundation of a hardworking franchise. But these guys do not just have competitive drive, they are also two of the most intelligent players in the league, and two of the nicest players in the league. So they have combined to form a completely positive environment for young players to practice and develop in. The results of Gordon and Deng's improvements show the merits of this. Now those old reports about Ben Gordon playing exclusively in New York, and being morning workout buddies with Isiah Thomas or whatever are completely false. Ben does not own ANY property in New York of his own. He has boughten houses for his sisters, mother, and aunt. As well as he has boughten property for a community center and day care in his old neighborhood. He only goes to New York to check on those properties he has put in place, and he stays at his mothers house when he is visiting in New York. He is not neighbors with Isiah Thomas. He spends almost all of his time in Chicago, where his two best friends from childhood also live. One is Ben's adviser of sorts, and the other is attending Depaul University.
> 
> Anyhow, as far as the rest of the core....
> 
> I expect another Skiles and Ben Wallace clash after Skiles benches Wallace, after Wallace comes into camp out of shape again, and isn't able to compete at a high level consistently ONCE AGAIN.


Sloth, it's amazing how you're able to mentally transport yourself to be whereever you want to be, including in the minds and hearts of your favorite players. 

Like, I still can't forget how you knew what Eddy Curry's favorite dish from his mom is.

You'll have to teach us all how to do this, someday.

Sloth-Morpheus: "You can bend the rules, Neo!"
Neo: "I just learned Karate!"


----------



## Snake

Mebarak said:


> Anyhow, Thabo was a no worry. We all knew he was going to be working out big. Hopefully with added strength, he will be able to finish (he is probably our best penetrator, he just never finished), and add a consistent jumpshot (which he already showed signs of last year.).


This is absolutely true. Thabo has got the size, handle, and athleticism to be able to consistently drive to the hoop. This would add a completely different dimsension to our backcourt if he develops, and takes Duhons minutes as expected.



> But the most room to go wrong for next year is Ben Wallace. It appears like he no longer wants to put in the work to be great (anyone else notice how much smaller her muscles were last year compared to in D-town). He used to be a gym rat in Detroit, always in the weight room with Chauncey. Not the case in Chicago. The core really doesn't seem to like him overall too much. They all just kind of had a respect for him for his reputation.


It might be because of his age and the back problems he had last year. At least that's what I'm hoping. He does need to put in some work though. Antonio McDyess is a guy who doesn't train at all during the summer because of his knees. It's also why he sucked at the start of the season and got better as the season went on.



> Chris Duhon, not sure what to make of him. He is always around the Berto. He gets along with everybody (apparently not the coaching staff). I'd just assume he walks around the Berto in a drunk stupor.


That's not Gatorade that Duhon's drinking durin the games.:lol: :lol:


----------



## BG7

Snake said:


> I hate to agree with Mebarak about Gordon, but if we were to get Gasol his shooting would become even more valuable.
> 
> Gasol has been saying things like he wants Memphis to put a team around him that can compete(where have I heard this already?). Memphis isn't about to spend a lot of money on the market, and they've found the guy to replace West as GM.
> 
> Maybe Pax can make a draft night trade to send the pick and filler to Memphis for Gasol. Not sure if we could do it on draft night but the pick would be a cheap player for 4 years and Du and Kryappa would provide salary relief as Memphis dumps their biggest contract. I would love that maybe more than a Kobe trade. It would be an outright steal.


Yeah, apparently Gasol will be pressuring hard as the draft comes up to get traded, and Memphis might let up.

A splash into summer would be.

Bulls Trade:

Ben Wallace
Thabo Sefolosha
Chris Duhon
#9

Bulls Receive:

Pau Gasol
Mike Miller
Brian Cardinal
Francisco Elson

Spurs Trade:

Francisco Elson
Jackie Butler
Beno Udrih
Brent Barry

Spurs Receive:

Ben Wallace
Chris Duhon

Grizzlies Trade:

Pau Gasol
Brian Cardinal
Mike Miller

Grizzlies Receive:

Thabo Sefolosha
Jackie Butler
Brent Barry
Beno Udrih
#9 pick

I know its not a "trade checker" approved trade, but San Antonio and Chicago both have trade exceptions, which 1. Allows San Antonio to take on Wallace and Duhon, and 2. Allows Chicago to take back Elson.

This is a splash into summer imho.

Now this might not seem like a ton, but the Grizzlies are unloading 2 bad contracts with Gasol.

This puts Memphis significantly under the cap for this season as well, as well as for future seasons. They get Thabo/#9 as far as non capspace assets.

San Antonio gets Ben Wallace and Duhon to fill out their rotation. They simply have to bring Scola over finally to complete their bigs rotation.

That would be a true splash into summer.


----------



## theanimal23

Thabo has all the talent to be a solid player. I felt with him this past year it was more so issues with confidence in his abilies than anything else. If he can work hard and have confidence in himself, he is going to be a very nice pick @ 13.

I hope Tyrus is a gym rat a la Luol/Ben


----------



## Dornado

Mebarak said:


> This is what Paxson has been saying about the change of culture of the franchise.
> 
> Ben Gordon and Luol Deng are the foundation of a hardworking franchise. But these guys do not just have competitive drive, they are also two of the most intelligent players in the league, and two of the nicest players in the league. So they have combined to form a completely positive environment for young players to practice and develop in. The results of Gordon and Deng's improvements show the merits of this. Now those old reports about Ben Gordon playing exclusively in New York, and being morning workout buddies with Isiah Thomas or whatever are completely false. Ben does not own ANY property in New York of his own. He has boughten houses for his sisters, mother, and aunt. As well as he has boughten property for a community center and day care in his old neighborhood. He only goes to New York to check on those properties he has put in place, and he stays at his mothers house when he is visiting in New York. He is not neighbors with Isiah Thomas. He spends almost all of his time in Chicago, where his two best friends from childhood also live. One is Ben's adviser of sorts, and the other is attending Depaul University.
> 
> Anyhow, as far as the rest of the core.
> 
> Ben Wallace was originally an isolationist with the team, but grew closer to Tyrus and PJ as the season went down. He has been a no show as far as the Berto is concerned this summer.
> 
> Andres Nocioni, like I said, has been in Argentina. He is on real good terms on with Ben, Luol, Kirk, and Du, the guys he grew up with in Chicago. *He is weary of the rookies. Has yet to develop any chemistry with Tyrus/Thabo.* STill time to do that in training camp. With Tyrus most likely getting the starting powerforward nod, and Nocioni staying in the same role of 6th man, there most likely will not be that competitive dislike to defer to Tyrus, since they will not be competing for the same minutes.
> 
> Kirk Hinrich has also been a Berto no show so far. *Thats not a big deal though, as he routinely comes a week or so into July.* Obviously his Team USA commitments will affect when he comes in. *He gets along good with the young guys and the main core as well.*
> 
> Chris Duhon, not sure what to make of him. *He is always around the Berto.* He gets along with everybody (apparently not the coaching staff). I'd just assume he walks around the Berto in a drunk stupor.
> 
> Anyhow, Thabo was a no worry. We all knew he was going to be working out big. Hopefully with added strength, he will be able to finish (he is probably our best penetrator, he just never finished), and add a consistent jumpshot (which he already showed signs of last year.).
> 
> Tyrus is the big one. Its nice to see he didn't go down South, but stayed in Chicago. Just work on a jumpshot and strength, and like Luol did last year, he should get the nod for the starting spot coming into camp in great form.
> 
> That bodes well for our #9 pick. Spencer Hawes and Joakim Noah both seem like guys that would fit in well with the current team. Not so sure about Yi. I'd prefer a player that was staying in Chicago (most likely Hawes would be a Berto rat), rather than one in China.
> 
> But the most room to go wrong for next year is Ben Wallace. It appears like he no longer wants to put in the work to be great (anyone else notice how much smaller her muscles were last year compared to in D-town). He used to be a gym rat in Detroit, always in the weight room with Chauncey. Not the case in Chicago. *The core really doesn't seem to like him overall too much. They all just kind of had a respect for him for his reputation. *
> 
> I expect another Skiles and Ben Wallace clash after Skiles benches Wallace, after Wallace comes into camp out of shape again, and isn't able to compete at a high level consistently ONCE AGAIN.


Source?


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## theanimal23

Isn't Kirk getting married and well I don't blame him for enjoying a month off with the bride.


----------



## BG7

Just from an old Trib article.



> At home in Northbrook, where he lives with childhood friends Imran John and Calvin Roach, he keeps track of his goals on a detailed spreadsheet. It isn't enough to want to become an NBA All-Star—that's too vague. It's a science, really, one Gordon refers to as "measurable progress in reasonable time." There is a specific list of what he must accomplish each day as a way of measuring himself against those goals, and every week he asks himself, "Where did I fall short?"
> 
> To that end, he hits the gym. And not just for practice and shootarounds, or even a regular off-season regimen, but every single day, sometimes twice a day, sometimes the night of a game in which he scored 20 points but his shot wasn't quite right.
> 
> "He won't even go on vacation because he just feels weird not working on his game," Roach says. "Like everyone else will pass him by if he's not doing what he should be doing. He just feels unbelievably careless if he doesn't take advantage of it."
> 
> 
> "We grew up in a neighborhood where, if you wanted to get into trouble, trouble was definitely there to be found," Roach says. "But you made a choice and lived the life you wanted to live, and with Ben there was no doubt. Everyone knew how focused he was, the goals he set out to accomplish and people just kind of left him alone. It was like 'Why even bother?' Everyone wanted to see him do well."
> 
> The obsessive streak began almost immediately in terms of basketball. "Ben would never participate in any other extracurricular activity, even tag," Roach says. "We'd say, 'We're tired of basketball, let's play something else,' and Ben would go, 'OK, I'm going home now,' and go shoot on his own."
> 
> And shoot he would, at all hours. "It would be 1 at night," his grandmother recalls, "and I'd say, 'Ben, you're waking up the neighbors. Stop bouncing that ball.' "
> 
> In high school he would wake up at 5 a.m. to work out on his own before class. "You'd be hard-pressed to find a kid any age as disciplined as Ben growing up," Roach says. "Everything he did, he was goal-oriented. He just wanted it that bad, and it wasn't about being rich or famous. If that's all that drives you, you're not going to get too far."
> 
> Since then, Gordon has showered the women in his life with gifts—an '07 Cadillac and college tuition for Ingrid, jewelry for Mom, a house for one aunt and cars for others, shopping sprees for everyone. He is also paying to gut their old house and have it refurbished as a day-care center Ingrid will run. "They deserve it," Gordon says. "They've been there all the way for me."
> 
> For Roach and John, Gordon's family is their family as well.
> 
> "These are kids who grew up around the block," Yvonne says. "Having them here was the best choice Ben could have made. These guys are not going to become a distraction for him."
> 
> Much to the contrary, when Gordon asked Roach to join him in Chicago, Roach accepted only under the condition that he would finish college here, which he did, at DePaul last spring. He now works as an equities analyst for a Chicago company. John came to work as Gordon's personal assistant last summer to replace a college friend who left to work on his master's.
> 
> "A lot of people see me and think I'm just hanging around, but Ben wouldn't have that," John says. "I work pretty much every day. And no question he's the boss."
> 
> "They're definitely not an entourage," Gordon says. "It wouldn't work if it was. I was never somebody who attracted people who liked to hang on. Even when I was growing up, I always had a tight-knit group of people who I trusted around me, people with similar traits."


Points of interest. 

-Northbrook is in the Chicago metropolitan area.
-Ferris Beullars day off was filmed in Northbrook.
-Ben Gordon got up, and went at 5 AM to go practice in his high school gym. Luol Deng only got up to go to his school's gym at 6 AM....Ben with the slight edge in jib in highschool.

Other little known Ben facts:

-Eats peanut butter and jelly sandwiches before games. Kobe Bryant eats Big Macs before games. Ben has better jib on the pregame meal.
-Ben Gordon grew up a Bulls fan, not a Knicks fan...so going to the Knicks would not allow him to fulfill his childhood dream, he already is living it.


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## Dornado

Mebarak said:


> Just from an old Trib article.
> 
> 
> 
> Points of interest.
> 
> -Northbrook is in the Chicago metropolitan area.
> -Ferris Beullars day off was filmed in Northbrook.
> -Ben Gordon got up, and went at 5 AM to go practice in his high school gym. Luol Deng only got up to go to his school's gym at 6 AM....Ben with the slight edge in jib in highschool.
> 
> Other little known Ben facts:
> 
> -Eats peanut butter and jelly sandwiches before games. Kobe Bryant eats Big Macs before games. Ben has better jib on the pregame meal.
> -Ben Gordon grew up a Bulls fan, not a Knicks fan...so going to the Knicks would not allow him to fulfill his childhood dream, he already is living it.


How about a source on the team not liking Ben Wallace or Nocioni not getting along with Tyrus and Thabo yet?


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## Snake

Dornado said:


> How about a source on the team not liking Ben Wallace or Nocioni not getting along with Tyrus and Thabo yet?


----------



## Mr. T

Dornado said:


> How about a source on the team not liking Ben Wallace or Nocioni not getting along with Tyrus and Thabo yet?


I'm guessing -


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## Dornado

on edit: shoot, beat me to it... at least mine doesn't take up the whole screen...


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## bullybullz

T.Shock said:


> If Pax can't get Kobe I'd like to see him throw this at Memphis and the Knicks...
> 
> Chicago sends:
> Ben Gordon
> Tyrus Thomas
> Chris Duhon
> Viktor Khryapa
> 
> Chicago receives:
> Pau Gasol
> Mardy Collins
> 
> New York sends:
> Channing Frye
> David Lee
> Mardy Collins
> Nate Robinson
> 
> New York receives:
> Ben Gordon
> Hakim Warrick
> 
> Memphis sends:
> Pau Gasol
> Hakim Warrick
> 
> Memphis receives:
> Tyrus Thomas
> David Lee
> Channing Frye
> Chris Duhon
> Nate Robinson
> Viktor Khryapa
> 2008 1st Round Pick(Bulls)
> 2008 1st Round Pick(Knicks)
> 
> Haha. I just didn't want to start a new thread for this utterly ludicrous and terrible trade idea. But it gets us Gasol without Deng. Woo-hoo.


GOD DAMN. NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why does Memphis receive so DAMN MUCH. IS GASOL AND FILLERS GOD OR SOMETHING!! If that's what the Lakers received for Kobe and fillers I understand but not for 'I can't win a playoff series, let alone one game' GASOL.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/slezak/433313,CST-SPT-carol19.article


Grant Kobe's wish
Bryant wants a new uniform, so Bulls should risk whatever it takes to make sure he's wearing theirs

June 19, 2007
BY CAROL SLEZAK Sun-Times Columnist
If Kobe Bryant wants to come to Chicago, how can the Bulls say no? When the best perimeter player in the game wants to join your team, don't you have to figure out a way to get the deal done? Not only is Bryant a virtual scoring machine, he comes equipped with a killer instinct, something the Bulls have lacked since Michael Jordan left town.

General manager John Paxson wouldn't want to give away everyone in exchange for Bryant, but he might not have to. Judging from the latest Bryant news, he is truly unhappy with the Lakers. If Bryant doesn't want to be there any longer, the Lakers can't afford to keep him around. There's nothing worse than a sullen superstar.

On Sunday on his Web site, Bryant reposted an earlier trade demand that read in part, ''The more I thought about the future, the more I became convinced that the Lakers and me just have two different visions for the future. ... [T]he ONE THING I will never sacrifice when it comes to basketball is WINNING.'' On Monday, Bryant replaced that statement with messages from fans supporting his trade demand. Meanwhile Buss sent out a long letter to Lakers fans this weekend that reaffirmed the franchise's commitment to winning but never mentioned Bryant's name. I'd say the price for Bryant is dropping by the day.

And there's more. Word has it that some guys in the Los Angeles area have video footage of Bryant cussing and complaining about the Lakers' personnel decisions. According to Hoopsworld.com, which has seen the video, the same guys also have an audio clip of Bryant captured on a cell phone on June 10 in which Bryant, in response to a query about whether he plans to remain with the Lakers, responds, ''Get a Bulls uniform, fellas.''


It won't be easy
Sure, Bryant was coaxed back into the Lakers' fold by Phil Jackson after demanding a trade a few weeks ago, but I sense that even a Jackson intervention won't work this time. Can the Lakers' loss become the Bulls gain? Naysayers will point to obstacles that make dealing for Bryant difficult. For instance, in addition to the no-trade clause in his contract, which runs through 2011, he can opt out of the remainder of his deal in 2009. He's also owed about $88 million on his contract, so there would be serious salary-cap implications. And of course, the Lakers would want a lot -- preferably a superstar -- in return. Details, details, details. If Bryant wants out, the Lakers have to deal him or risk an extremely unhappy locker room. If the Bulls really want Bryant, they can find a way to make it happen.

Bryant is hardly perfect. He is a modern superstar, complete with a huge ego and a stubborn streak. More disturbingly, he once faced criminal sexual assault charges. Though he has stayed out of trouble since his 2003 arrest, it's a factor the Bulls would have to consider. Is Bryant the kind of person you want to invest $88 million in?

As a player, he's worth the money. As we've seen so many times, he's capable of winning games singlehandedly. Look how far LeBron James took the Cavaliers this year. Is there any doubt that Bryant would put the Bulls over the top in the Eastern Conference? He turns 29 in August and has logged a lot of minutes, but he has shown no signs of slowing down. He would help cover up a lot of weaknesses for the Bulls, including their small front line. Imagine what a player who averages 31.6 points and commands a double team could do for the moribund offense. And Bryant's defense isn't too shabby, either.

It could be a good fit
Having suffered through the Lakers' attempt to rebuild after Shaquille O'Neal's departure, I believe Bryant only wants to win again. He knows the Lakers are not close to competing for a championship in the Western Conference. But the Bulls are a different story. Sure, Paxson will have to give up value for him. But in return, the Bulls will get one of the best and most competitive players in the history of the game. Would a package of Ben Gordon, Ben Wallace and the No. 9 pick be enough for the Lakers? Remember, they can't afford to keep an unhappy Bryant around.

There are risks involved in trading for Bryant. The Bulls are a team without ego, and both Paxson and coach Scott Skiles seem to prefer this makeup. But as we saw in the playoffs, the Bulls could use an ego, not to mention a mean streak. Some also might question whether Skiles could coexist with the demanding and mercurial Bryant. But hasn't Skiles met every challenge he has faced so far? We keep looking for him to fail, and he keeps proving us wrong.

It's risky to make a big, bold deal. But you know what they say. No risk, no championship.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/imrem.asp?id=324365

Bryant a Bull? Cherish the thought

Mike Imrem
By Mike Imrem
Daily Herald Sports Columnist
Posted Wednesday, June 20, 2007

Finally, a potential cure for the National Boring Association: Kobe Bryant to the Bulls.

Heck, just the possibility promotes all sorts of interest. Imagine if it ever really happened. It would sort of be to the NBA what funny-bone transplants are to the AMA.

Not because Bryant might be the world’s best basketball player. Not because he might average 100 points. Not even because the Bulls might win an NBA title.

No, this would be the greatest show in sports because Scott Skiles coaches the Bulls.


Think Pacman Jones and Roger Goodell or Barry Bonds and Hank Aaron trying to coexist in the back seat of “Hellcab.”

Skiles once got physical with Shaquille O’Neal when they were teammates in Orlando. Bryant threw a few wayward, yet well-aimed, elbows this season.

These clearly are two guys who think they’re like your mother: Right even when they’re wrong.

The price of admission to anything involving the Bulls — games, practices, news conferences — would be cheap at any cost.

(Come to think of it, if Bryant stays in L.A., the Lakers should replace Phil Jackson with Skiles just for the sake of some Hollywood-style drama.)

Moot subject or hot topic — the story has more legs than anyone could have anticipated — Bryant does keep saying he wants to be traded, and that the Bulls are one of his preferred destinations.

So let’s at least ponder the possibility. Like, how would Bryant’s trigger-happy jump shot clash with Skiles’ robotic-sappy team concept?

Actually, Skiles is the X-factor surrounding every proposed move by the Bulls this off-season, as in could he coach this guy, or could that guy play for him?

Last month I asked a former NBA coach what would happen if the Bulls acquired maddening Portland forward Zach Randolph.

“A fistfight,” he said.

So the prospect of a Bryant-Skiles alliance is more compelling than whether the Bulls would have to exchange Luol Deng, Ben Gordon and the Jordan statue for Bryant, whether what remained would be a better supporting cast than the Lakers provide him, and whether it matters considering how bad the Eastern Conference is.

Perhaps the Bulls could set up a steel cage in the Berto Center and let Bryant and Skiles go at it. Last man standing gets to call plays for a week.

Seriously, Bryant might have more intelligence and instinct for the game than any current NBA player and perhaps as much as even the technically brilliant Skiles.

Ah, but that plus could become a minus under Skiles, who still has to prove he can finesse a stubborn, selfish superstar the way, say, Jackson finessed Michael Jordan.

Actually that’s a pretty good barometer in itself: How would Skiles have done coaching Jordan?

Would Skiles have been as deferential as Jackson was? Could he be with Bryant? Or might Kobe become a team player on his own if his teammates were better than Smush Parker?

Bulls chairman Jerry Reinsdorf tolerated the often insufferable Jackson because the coach managed to manage Jordan’s considerable ego and presence.

Skiles hasn’t demonstrated he could do with Bryant what Jackson did with Jordan. Or even compromise even more principles for Bryant than he did for Ben Wallace last season.

In this league, even if the coach wins the fistfight, the player usually wins the power struggle.

Either way, a Bryant-Skiles pairing would mean the Bulls would be the exception to the National Boring Association.


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## ace20004u

I actually think they would get along, they are both no nonsense competitors. I think having both of them together would be a GOOD thing and that they would keep the Bulls focused. I imagine Kobe would be the vocal team leader & Skiles the orchestrator. I don't see a conflict here at all and I doubt Pax would have pursued Kobe as a Free agent if he saw one either.

ACE


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## Ron Cey

> Like, how would Bryant’s trigger-happy jump shot clash with Skiles’ robotic-sappy team concept?


Team concept. How "sappy". 



> Or even compromise even more principles for Bryant than he did for Ben Wallace last season.


I'm not sure what to make of this. Its a little ambiguous and I can see two different readings. 

Regardless, we all know, because it was reported numerous times, that Skiles did make exceptions for Wallace that he didn't make for younger, less established players. We even read that his willingless to make these exceptions actually irked some of the other players on the team. 

Wallace, though unlike some I actually think he had a solid season and helped very much to improve the team, proved himself to be a hard to manage, whiny, baby. And it appeared to me as though Skiles handled it exceedingly well. 

The notion that Skiles hasn't proven he can coach a prima donna superstar simply doesn't hold water anymore. Sure its still a concern. But it can't be intelligently declared as a general proposition anymore.


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## McBulls

Ron Cey said:


> The notion that Skiles hasn't proven he can coach a prima donna superstar simply doesn't hold water anymore. Sure its still a concern. But it can't be intelligently declared as a general proposition anymore.


I agree that Skiles has proven he's up to it. Wallace was a notoriously difficult player to coach and Skiles seems to have done it without a ripple. I think Kobe would do well in Chicago. From what I've heard he's a player that would take well to playing on a team that has "right way" players, coaches and management.


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## theanimal23

Whoever thinks Skiles and Kobe can't get along are, well, plain wrong!

Both want to win. Skiles is smart enough to know if you have a guy like Kobe with enough pieces around, you have a legit chance to win.

Gee, if possible, do you think Skiles would favor a lineup of Kirk-Kobe-Deng-Thomas-Big Ben or would he rather have Gordon, Duhon, Noce, and #9 instead of Kobe.

Pax played with the GOAT and another sure-fire Hall-of-Famer. Skiles played with Shaq. They know what its like to have a guy of this caliber to have on your side. 

Thats one thing I hate with this Kobe fiasco:
1. We would get a lot more Fake Bulls fans because, well, there are more Kobe fans than Lakers fans. Hell half the Lakers fans are Fakers (at least the ones I know). I told a good friend of mine to never speak basketball with me if we land Kobe, and he can sit there and root for Bynum. I can't stand people who just 'switch' teams like that.

2. How the hell do people not want Kobe on this team if we can get him for the right price. Hello? We are getting the BEST TALENT (Not player, thats Duncan) in basketball. We are getting him IN HIS PRIME. We are very fortunate that we are the front runners to land him. If he actually sits out, his trade value takes a monumental hit. Would you rather root for Ben Gordon (Sorry Sloth) or the thing closest to MJ if we can fetch a solid starting lineup around him?

3. The Skiles-Pax-Kobe-Right Way-Jib thing. Kobe has jib. How many more guys get up at 4:30am to start getting ready to work out. This guy is a workhorse. No way my dream Bulls lineup with Kobe doesn't make the finals and has a competing chance to beat the Spurs.


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## bullybullz

theanimal23 said:


> Whoever thinks Skiles and Kobe can't get along are, well, plain wrong!
> 
> Both want to win. Skiles is smart enough to know if you have a guy like Kobe with enough pieces around, you have a legit chance to win.
> 
> Gee, if possible, do you think Skiles would favor a lineup of Kirk-Kobe-Deng-Thomas-Big Ben or would he rather have Gordon, Duhon, Noce, and #9 instead of Kobe.
> 
> Pax played with the GOAT and another sure-fire Hall-of-Famer. Skiles played with Shaq. They know what its like to have a guy of this caliber to have on your side.
> 
> Thats one thing I hate with this Kobe fiasco:
> 1. We would get a lot more Fake Bulls fans because, well, there are more Kobe fans than Lakers fans. Hell half the Lakers fans are Fakers (at least the ones I know). I told a good friend of mine to never speak basketball with me if we land Kobe, and he can sit there and root for Bynum. I can't stand people who just 'switch' teams like that.
> 
> 2. How the hell do people not want Kobe on this team if we can get him for the right price. Hello? We are getting the BEST TALENT (Not player, thats Duncan) in basketball. We are getting him IN HIS PRIME. We are very fortunate that we are the front runners to land him. If he actually sits out, his trade value takes a monumental hit. Would you rather root for Ben Gordon (Sorry Sloth) or the thing closest to MJ if we can fetch a solid starting lineup around him?
> 
> 3. The Skiles-Pax-Kobe-Right Way-Jib thing. Kobe has jib. How many more guys get up at 4:30am to start getting ready to work out. This guy is a workhorse. No way my dream Bulls lineup with Kobe doesn't make the finals and has a competing chance to beat the Spurs.


At the right price yes, but what is that supposed to mean?? It all depends on opinion and how much you value the player. I would say the best talent is Garnett because no one can truly stop him. Put him in the block and he'll post you up and shoot the unblockable fadeaway or turnaround jumper. Or put a big and he'll blow right past you. Kobe, put a good defender on him-Bowen and he'll elbow you in the face. That's the only way he beat's good defenders. By throwing cheap shot's at them.

The last time I checked, Kobe couldn't even beat the Pistons which featured no franchise players while the Lakers had hall-of-famers in Payton and Malone along with the BIG Diesel Shaquille O'Neal...

Or I could be wrong about that.

Didn't they also have Phil Jackson as coach?? The one who coached MJ and Scottie??


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## theanimal23

Hey Nice Kobe argument. How about KG trying to make the playoffs every few years? Or how about KG taking a little less money on his SECOND MAX contract so they can build a winner around him? How about KG actually getting his team over the hump with somewhat decent guys around him (Spree, Cassell)?


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## theanimal23

Kobe is a good post player too. Sure not in terms of the big man, but he scores the way MJ did on the block. We would have our post-scorer in Kobe.


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## bullybullz

theanimal23 said:


> Hey Nice Kobe argument. How about KG trying to make the playoffs every few years? Or how about KG taking a little less money on his SECOND MAX contract so they can build a winner around him? How about KG actually getting his team over the hump with somewhat decent guys around him (Spree, Cassell)?


I'm just playing with you for arguments sake but I can counter every question you asked me.

1) Look at his current supporting cast and see which conference Minnesota is in.

2) McHale and KG should've had a long conversation about this (if they even had one). Maybe McHale wanted to keep KG so badly that he offered KG something he clearly wouldn't refuse. McHale is the dumb one. He could've told KG "Hey, if I give you the max, you might not win." Then, I think KG would think otherwise...

3) You said it yourself, he had DECENT players, not allstar to hall-of-fame calibre players in which the Lakers had. If I remember clearly, I believe Sam I Am and Latrell choking P.J. Carlesimo until he got blue in the face Sprewell were QUITE up there in age. Weren't they in their mid 30's?? Well, KG and his DECENT players made it all the way to the WCF in the tough West and faced the mighty Lakers which featured some DECENT players if I say so myself.... They went all the way to game 6 of the WCF against the Lakers. How much further did you expect them to go??

Some teammate Sprewell turned out to be, he had to 'feed his starving children.'


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## bullybullz

theanimal23 said:


> Kobe is a good post player too. Sure not in terms of the big man, but he scores the way MJ did on the block. We would have our post-scorer in Kobe.


Oh don't get me wrong, we would but winning the championship is another matter...


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## theanimal23

I think you and I would both agree that we shouldn't gut the team for either and if we stand pat we'll go further than either player will this year.


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## bullybullz

theanimal23 said:


> I think you and I would both agree that we shouldn't gut the team for either and if we stand pat we'll go further than either player will this year.


Agreed.:biggrin:


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## Bulls42

Who's more unstoppable: KG or Kobe:

Garnett
Career high: 40 points

Bryant
Career high: 81 points


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## bullybullz

Bulls42 said:


> Who's more unstoppable: KG or Kobe:
> 
> Garnett
> Career high: *40 points*
> 
> Bryant
> Career high: 81 points


Actually it's 47. And that is one game. The NBA is a marathon not a sprint.


----------

