# Raptors Moving Forward



## TDotBaller (Apr 17, 2010)

Hey guys Im Kevin and this is my first post on these boards. Ive been an active reader on this forum up until this year and Im sick of watching medicore soft trash basketball so I figured I would rant about it and try to liven things up as I see things have drastically died down from 3-4 years ago. Its pretty safe to say Bosh is gone which I think is a positive if we can get some assets from a sign and trade. With or without Bosh here there are pretty big holes in our roster that need to be filled. What changes do you guys think we need to make going forward whether it is a player, management or coaching change through trades or any other means and what key returning pieces or assets do you feel we need to obtain. 

I would like to see a full scale rebuild and dont really care who goes besides Derozan,Weems and Bargnani who has been very frustrating for me to watch with his soft play but his skill set for a big man is pretty impressive and its hard to imagine the type of player he could become on another team if we were to trade him. I would like to see us add players who are physical, scrappy and finish hard around the net. I can no longer stand this soft perimeter euro crap and for this to happen I would be happy to watch us hit the lotto watching crap ball these next couple years as long as our team is going in the right direction.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

In [email protected] I think we need to get 2 physical players or 1 Strictly Defensive and than 1 explosive wing guy.
I was thinking Bosh for Oden & Batum.
Than move Calderon for a very scrappy SG, a role player who can help Derozan get to the next level sooner.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

There is no way the Blazers would do that trade. We are going to get something back for Bosh but chances are it won't be anything spectacular. It'll likely be in the range of Noah or Lee or it may be expirings + picks.

I really have no idea what the Raptors will do. I think they will fire Triano and promote Ivaroni which is a lateral move in my opinion. They won't be able to move Turkoglu and as long as BC is still around Bargnani will be too. It's going to be some slow and agonizing years ahead of us.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> There is no way the Blazers would do that trade. We are going to get something back for Bosh but chances are it won't be anything spectacular. It'll likely be in the range of Noah or Lee or it may be expirings + picks.
> 
> I really have no idea what the Raptors will do. I think they will fire Triano and promote Ivaroni which is a lateral move in my opinion. They won't be able to move Turkoglu and as long as BC is still around Bargnani will be too. It's going to be some slow and agonizing years ahead of us.


You dont think the blazers would trade oden for bosh?


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

roux2dope said:


> You dont think the blazers would trade oden for bosh?


I think it's something we should look into. A healthy Oden that has no history of injury would be too much (along with Batum) but looking at the current situation the Blazers are only a star PF away from being perennial contenders and the trade really benefits both teams. I wouldn't be opposed to this but if Oden goes down (which, let's be honest, is likely) the Raptors as an orgnaization would be ****ed and BC and his gambles would have run their course. 

As for my views on the team. 

I want to keep Bargnani. He can score and he can score in bunches, he needs to develop a little more but he could be a go to guy given time and lots of possessions. Throw in a rugged defensive powerhouse of a PF/C (Noah springs to mind) who won't demand 15+ shots a night and I think this team gets instantly better. If we can't get a big man for Bosh in a S + T we should look for SF, maybe look towards Luol Deng. 

Looking at the PG situation, I want to keep Jack and cash in on Jose while he has some decent value after a nice finish to the season. I wonder if something could be worked out with the Wizards as they have a few really nice pieces who have been able to shine after Arenas-Gate. Calderon for Blatche? I think Jose makes more than Blatche right now but we'll be shedding some salary with Bosh moving on so we could take on filler to make the deal work. 

Starters.
Jarrett Jack 
DeMar Derozan
Luol Deng
Andray Blatche
Andrea Bargnani 

That starting unit to me could win 50+ games. (Aslong as Blatche continues his recent stellar play, which really is a gamble)

The other players I'd like to keep around are Sonny Weems and Amir Johnson. Wright, Belinelli, Banks, O'Bryant and even Reggie Evans could all leave and we wouldn't miss them very much. I'd like to keep those players that look like they may have a future at this team, I don't want players who are simply filling up roster space. 

My plan doesn't look much towards depth but I'll leave all that tinkering to BC. Aslong as we have a solid core I'd be happy.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

roux2dope said:


> You dont think the blazers would trade oden for bosh?


No I don't. The Blazers haven't given up on the guy yet and despite what the fans think they still feel that he can be an elite center in the league. This isn't a situation where they are trading player for player. In a sign and trade scenario the team that is trading away the FA has less leverage and I don't see Bosh in a sign&trade scenario being as valuable as Oden. Batum is also a guy that they value and theres just no way they give up both for Bosh. Of course theres the problem with Bosh playing the same position as Aldridge who they have signed long term.

If I'm the GM of the Raptors I would just do all I can to unload Turkoglu/Calderon and build the team around Bargnani for now. The roster would be something like

Bargnani
Amir Johnson
Weems
DeRozan
Jack

Calderon and Turkoglu would be traded for expirings/picks or Calderon for picks, Turk for expirings. 

This team will get you about 20 wins or less and then the Raptors build through the draft for the next 2 years. During that time they try to field good offers for Bargnani and if someone bites then trade him. At the end of this rebuilding the Raptors will be free of Euro Ball and may finally start winning some games.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Ha. My post didn't even mention Hedu. Yeah, I think that sums up how much I rate his worth on this team. If BC can get rid of him anyway, anyhow, anywhere I'd be one grateful supporter.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i think we're undervaluing what bosh would command on the market. first noah. now oden. who's next? i don't think we should be worrying about our bargaining position if we're going to deal him. chris would have as much interest in finding a suitable trading partner as we would. if the team that's willing to pay this man 23+ mil/yr is not willing to give up a major part of their core to do it, i'd be shocked. if he's worth that much money to you, he's worth your incumbent players too- especially a guy like oden who, god love him, is thus far "bargnani bust" to the power of 5; or noah who, god bless _his_ soul, has to this point established himself as nothing more than a fiery leader and fan fave.

i think we're forgetting all the accolades that chris bosh has to his name: five-time all-star, top power forward in the game, gold-medalist with the dream team, 20/10/5/50/80 benchmarks, youtube sensation and 26 year-old all around good guy whose best friends around the league include lebron james, dwyane wade and kobe bryant. not everyone can say that.

of course there are also flaws. he hasn't proven himself to be a bona fide mvp candidate, for one. and his playoff experience rivals mine. but does that preclude him from being traded for greg (dnp) oden or joakim (energy) noah?

i don't think the fact that he's unrestricted would hurt us too much. i think we'd get roughly the same value for him in july as we would've in february. and that means more than the abovementioned two.

but i still don't think he's going anywhere. i feel guilty for even talking about it. i think his press conference was good tv, but only led me to conclude that he wants the team to go into the tax. i think that means sacrificing calderon, bargnani, derozan, first rounder and years of flexibility for maybe one top-flight star or two borderline first options. joe johnson's the obvious target, but depending on how they play in the postseason, i could even see a move for tim duncan, ray allen, andre iguodala, devin harris, gilbert arenas, rip hamilton or even tracy mcgrady. you'd think i was crazy. i probably am. but i think chris is looking at boston's 2007 offseason strategy as a real template... for better or worse. and i think people forget just how dire boston's straights were back then. if we have anything, it's more assets than they did- with the exception of a slightly lower lotto pick. 

either way, oden and noah are, imo, not nearly enough for colangelo. but i think the better question is what will be enough for _chris_. we'll see what happens.

peace


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

Junkyard Dog13 said:


> In [email protected] I think we need to get 2 physical players or 1 Strictly Defensive and than 1 explosive wing guy.
> I was thinking Bosh for Oden & Batum.
> Than move Calderon for a very scrappy SG, a role player who can help Derozan get to the next level sooner.


Batum is a starter. Trading Oden is a loose loose. They would probably rather just keep him. 
How does getting another shooting guard help derozan who can't get on the floor now?


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

Porn_Player said:


> I think it's something we should look into. A healthy Oden that has no history of injury would be too much (along with Batum) but looking at the current situation the Blazers are only a star PF away from being perennial contenders and the trade really benefits both teams. I wouldn't be opposed to this but if Oden goes down (which, let's be honest, is likely) the Raptors as an orgnaization would be ****ed and BC and his gambles would have run their course.
> 
> As for my views on the team.
> 
> ...


Andray Blatche? Talk about buying high. 
Deng would be just like Turkaglu here. Whats the point of having TWO aging underachieving, overpaid SFs? If it;s because Deng is a better defender, I say just give Derozan the role Deng would have had and let him develop. We should just look to get a draft pick for bosh and start rebuilding.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

mo76 said:


> Andray Blatche? Talk about buying high.
> Deng would be just like Turkaglu here. Whats the point of having TWO aging underachieving, overpaid SFs? If it;s because Deng is a better defender, I say just give Derozan the role Deng would have had and let him develop. We should just look to get a draft pick for bosh and start rebuilding.


Deng is nothing like Hedo nor DeRozan. He doesn't just play better defense he plays great defense. DeRozan plays a smaller game and seems more suited to the SG position, why not stick him next to Deng who can do all the dirty work. Deng also hits the boards really hard. If you want to start rebuilding you've got another thing coming, BC isn't that type of decision maker. He wants to improve each and every season. 

Calderon for Blatche is buying high? Jose is on the downturn of his career and Andray is just figuring out he can really be a star in this league. He's not my ideal option but we have to be realistic about trade partners and what exactly Jose is worth. 

I'd love to throw Bosh to the Heat for two first rounders + Chalmers or to OKC for Green + Thabo + 1st but it's not the way BC operates. I'm not saying what is perfect for this team I'm attempting to predict the route BC goes down.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

ballocks said:


> i think we're undervaluing what bosh would command on the market. first noah. now oden. who's next? i don't think we should be worrying about our bargaining position if we're going to deal him. chris would have as much interest in finding a suitable trading partner as we would. if the team that's willing to pay this man 23+ mil/yr is not willing to give up a major part of their core to do it, i'd be shocked. if he's worth that much money to you, he's worth your incumbent players too- especially a guy like oden who, god love him, is thus far "bargnani bust" to the power of 5; or noah who, god bless _his_ soul, has to this point established himself as nothing more than a fiery leader and fan fave.
> 
> i think we're forgetting all the accolades that chris bosh has to his name: five-time all-star, top power forward in the game, gold-medalist with the dream team, 20/10/5/50/80 benchmarks, youtube sensation and 26 year-old all around good guy whose best friends around the league include lebron james, dwyane wade and kobe bryant. not everyone can say that.
> 
> ...


I too expect BC to attempt a quick turnaround but I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself. Just look at our history and then seriously tell me you expect high value back for Bosh. 

T-Mac. Vince. J'Oneal. Hakeem. Alonzo Mourning. 

We don't get anything for our stars. Yes you may think CB4 may be different but we'll see when he bolts for a team and we end up with average role players and some future consideration. 

Oh and Noah isn't just an 'energy' guy. He's developed into a good basketball player and is a rebounding machine.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

Porn_Player said:


> Deng is nothing like Hedo nor DeRozan. He doesn't just play better defense he plays great defense. DeRozan plays a smaller game and seems more suited to the SG position, why not stick him next to Deng who can do all the dirty work. Deng also hits the boards really hard. If you want to start rebuilding you've got another thing coming, BC isn't that type of decision maker. He wants to improve each and every season.
> 
> Calderon for Blatche is buying high? Jose is on the downturn of his career and Andray is just figuring out he can really be a star in this league. He's not my ideal option but we have to be realistic about trade partners and what exactly Jose is worth.
> 
> I'd love to throw Bosh to the Heat for two first rounders + Chalmers or to OKC for Green + Thabo + 1st but it's not the way BC operates. I'm not saying what is perfect for this team I'm attempting to predict the route BC goes down.


Ok, I know Blatche had a dispute with his coach, but i doubt they are thinking about trading him for Jose Calderon. They are so depleted. They could probably just sign a vet PG in FA that would do essentially the same job as Jose without giving up their best player. 

As far as Bosh goes, I'm happy if we get anything at all for him at all.


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## TDotBaller (Apr 17, 2010)

I think its a lose lose cause either way if we can get Bosh for a guy who can contribute right away. We will still be a first or second round exit team lacking a player good enough to make us a legitimate contender or we will be one of the teams from the outside looking in from the lottery wasting our picks on NBA wannabees or if we get lucky role players who will just contribute to our mediocrity. This team right now is complete garbarge, we need to strip the whole thing and become a yearly lotto team. Every team needs two big time impact players to become legitimate contenders year in year out. We are trying to surround one player who is uncapable of takeing over a game with players not good enough to make a real impact on our team. We had Bosh dropping 40 a game and we were stil finding ways to lose ball games. With the max contract he wants we'll accomplish just as much as we have these past years because of depleted assets which we blew on useless players such as J.O, Hedo Turkospew who showed tremendous inconsistency in his ability to contribute around the court and his shooting is out of the question which has just been horrendous outside of maybe the first 10games of the season. What we need is to become the new laughing stock of the NBA. I really dont care, one year, two years, three years as a joke can do us some real good. Its frustrating to see our team moving in the wrong direction every year. We win a weak atlantic division two years ago and Colangelo suddenly thinks were some contender. When our team is ready to be good it will be good. Management as well as our fan base I feel is trying to speed up the process of success through requesting or making absolutely useless transactions. NO MORE CRAP BALL. If I cant get good ball I want exciting ball. Raptors,we have nothing. We need to trade bosh for draft picks and use those assets to swing bigger moves for upside guys, Bosh frankly wont get us close to as much as we think he is, if we can get a high upside player so be it but this isnt a fairytale, were looking at something a long the lines of Alonzo Mourning and co. crap for Bosh.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

Porn_Player said:


> Just look at our history and then seriously tell me you expect high value back for Bosh.
> 
> T-Mac. Vince. J'Oneal. Hakeem. Alonzo Mourning.


i don't blame you but i think the raptors' recent past is clouding your perspective. you're expecting it to go bad again, and in the process seem to be forcing square pegs into round holes. those names aren't even apples and oranges when it comes to chris bosh, imo- they're more like apples and winter tires.  ironically, i think t-mac is the only fair comparison there- and i think our failure to get anything in return was more the fault of an inexperienced, insecure manager than it was anything else.

vince? we got joey graham. just kidding. but we were at a different stage than we are now. plus there were other factors. and i wouldn't compare vince to chris bosh if my life depended on it.

jermaine? why are you saying we didn't get anything for him? those trades were fair across the board: tj for jermaine; jermaine for marion; marion for turkoglu. you can't get something for nothing; and it wasn't like we got nothing for something, either. we didn't get any stars, no, but we didn't give up any stars. you might not be impressed with turk but 12 months ago the guy was heralded around the league and you probably couldn't find a team who didn't want him. again, just 12 months ago.

hakeem? you mean the broken hakeem olajuwon who didn't file his retirement papers only because he didn't want to stop getting paid? it's a failure that we couldn't trade him? and now we're comparing him to chris bosh?

mourning? the same mourning who came in the vince trade? i mean, if we didn't get anything for vince, how can we complain about not getting anything for mourning?



> Oh and Noah isn't just an 'energy' guy. He's developed into a good basketball player and is a rebounding machine.


yeah, i didn't say he wasn't a good player. he absolutely is. but tell me if he's this: "five-time all-star, top power forward in the game, gold-medalist with the dream team, 20/10/5/50/80 benchmarks, youtube sensation and 26 year-old all around good guy whose best friends around the league include lebron james, dwyane wade and kobe bryant." that's all i said. noah is not that.

i don't blame anyone for expecting the worst. our track record is not exemplary. but what does that have to do with chris bosh? what do grunwald and babcock have to do with colangelo? apples to winter tires, imo.

i still think we're talking too much about dealing chris. i don't think he's going anywhere. a lot depends on how these playoffs unfold. it's pretty cool. i'm not that worried myself- but i wasn't worried with vince either and we all know how that turned out. i guess we'll see. keep your head up is all i'm saying.

peace


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

ballocks said:


> i don't blame you but i think the raptors' recent past is clouding your perspective. you're expecting it to go bad again, and in the process seem to be forcing square pegs into round holes. those names aren't even apples and oranges when it comes to chris bosh, imo- they're more like apples and winter tires.  ironically, i think t-mac is the only fair comparison there- and i think our failure to get anything in return was more the fault of an inexperienced, insecure manager than it was anything else.


But what has BC done to show he won't be fleeced in the same way we have been previously? A long line of talented expiring Raptors, from Donyell Marshall to Mike James to Morris Peterson, each could have fetched something of note in a trade and boom we got nothing. I'm not saying we should have got much but a few draft picks here and there would have come in so useful in terms of stockpiling talent that we could have used to trade for an all star caliber player to play alongside CB4.



> vince? we got joey graham. just kidding. but we were at a different stage than we are now. plus there were other factors. and i wouldn't compare vince to chris bosh if my life depended on it.


It's not a player comparison I'm interested in. Vince was our marquee player and he got fed up with mediocrity despite allowing him to play GM for a few seasons (disastrously) ... CB4 is in the same situation, we've made this franchise insanely Bosh friendly but if we're not winning why would he want to stay? 



> jermaine? why are you saying we didn't get anything for him? those trades were fair across the board: tj for jermaine; jermaine for marion; marion for turkoglu. you can't get something for nothing; and it wasn't like we got nothing for something, either. we didn't get any stars, no, but we didn't give up any stars. you might not be impressed with turk but 12 months ago the guy was heralded around the league and you probably couldn't find a team who didn't want him. again, just 12 months ago.


Try finding a team who wants Turkoglu right now. 



> hakeem? you mean the broken hakeem olajuwon who didn't file his retirement papers only because he didn't want to stop getting paid? it's a failure that we couldn't trade him? and now we're comparing him to chris bosh?


It was just a point that supposed star players don't treat this franchise with any respect. It hasn't happened just once, it's like we're a revolving door for those who want a payday or a plateau to show themselves off to other teams. 




> mourning? the same mourning who came in the vince trade? i mean, if we didn't get anything for vince, how can we complain about not getting anything for mourning?


Mourning had a few good years in him as he went on to show. We let a valuable asset just walk out of the door. 




> i still think we're talking too much about dealing chris. i don't think he's going anywhere. a lot depends on how these playoffs unfold. it's pretty cool. i'm not that worried myself- but i wasn't worried with vince either and we all know how that turned out. i guess we'll see. keep your head up is all i'm saying.


I'm not all that worried. If Bosh goes or stays I'm still going to be a fan and cheer for whoever we get in return. Wins or losses obviously don't matter to us fans because we've all sat around for year after year rooting for a team that has constantly let us down. I just enjoy discussing possibilities and looking at avenues (leading forward and retrospectively).


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Bosh is the most valuable player we've had in a sign and trade scenario in franchise history.

TMac wasn't a star until he got to Orlando and Vince was injured and disgruntled by the time he left. Mike James and Mopete weren't stars as well. In Jermaine O'neal's case we actually upgraded when we got Shawn Marion in return. JO was always injured for us and when he was healthy he wasn't that productive. At worst it was a lateral trade in which we got a declining star for a declining star.

I'm not banking on us getting a lot for Bosh but I would be surprised if we don't get something valuable in return.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

seifer0406 said:


> I'm not banking on us getting a lot for Bosh but I would be surprised if we don't get something valuable in return.


Oh yeah, don't get me wrong I'm not expecting pittance in return. I'm just not expecting his full value like Ballocks eluded to earlier. Other GM's are too smart for that, especially those who will be in the serious market for Bosh.


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## TDotBaller (Apr 17, 2010)

Haha i just noticed how stupid and unncessary the made face emoticon for the thread is.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

mo76 said:


> How does getting another shooting guard help derozan who can't get on the floor now?


If Wright is not back you need another SG, a defensive minded one who can ocassionly spot behind the 3 line, as Demar does not yet have that 3 range.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

NY I think after Portland is the best place for a [email protected] 
we send
Bosh


NY sends
Lee
Bill Walker
Barron

I like what I saw outta Walker in the last few games, would be a cheap back up with potential to perhaps be a 6th man type guy, Lee is that Blue collar playewer Toronto loves i.e plays physical and would bring some leadership and better suited at PF. Barron is a young upcoming player with good interior size and would help us on the glass. Walker would replace Belelini as the main 3 pt shooter young swing man with upside

Then move Calderon for a gritty vet i.e Evans/Wright that would help on the perimiter gaurding the 3 pt line and be someone that hasa good image as being a hard worker, coachable and someone who has plenty of playoff experience who could help mentor this young team.
I think to balance saleries maybe we get a filler as well.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

NYK, OKC and the Heat are the most probably destinations for Bosh IF he leaves. 

I personally prefer OKC.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Junkyard Dog13 said:


> If Wright is not back you need another SG, a defensive minded one who can ocassionly spot behind the 3 line, as Demar does not yet have that 3 range.


If DeMar doesn't develop a consistent shot over this summer my guess is he'll never live up to the hype we gave him here.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

Just thinking out loud can't the Raps get 2 big name FA? if MLSE willing to go over the cap then can we use the 15 or so million to sign a Wade then go over the limit resigning Chris? I know its not going to happen but watching B.C speaking to the media got me thinking what could he do to pull a rabbit out of the hat


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Mr_B said:


> Just thinking out loud can't the Raps get 2 big name FA? if MLSE willing to go over the cap then can we use the 15 or so million to sign a Wade then go over the limit resigning Chris? I know its not going to happen but watching B.C speaking to the media got me thinking what could he do to pull a rabbit out of the hat


I thought of this but I think the Hedo signing has crucified us. We simply don't have enough money to go around. Bosh = Max. Wade = Max. Bargs = 10 million. That alone has us near the cap.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

I defeniatlely think B.C on draft day or a few days prior will make a big trade Jose+ 13th pick for some big name, I would think a defensive specialist or a good wing player that Bosh has suggested.

I read in the star or here that B.C is gonna make a big move on draft day to try to get Chris to change his mind or if he is content on returning make his decision very firm.

It is a weak draft but I don't think anyone we would get at 13 would help is this year, I don't see B.C as a guy that is going to go with a rebuilding long term face, you know suick for 2 years get 2 high picks and then build. 
Had we not made that JO trade we could of been set if bosh is surely gone with Hibbert at C and Bargs at PF.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

Porn_Player said:


> I thought of this but I think the Hedo signing has crucified us. We simply don't have enough money to go around. Bosh = Max. Wade = Max. Bargs = 10 million. That alone has us near the cap.


I think it could work but who ever comes over is going to have to take a pay cut or work a S & T


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Porn_Player said:


> Deng is nothing like Hedo nor DeRozan. He doesn't just play better defense he plays great defense. DeRozan plays a smaller game and seems more suited to the SG position, why not stick him next to Deng who can do all the dirty work. Deng also hits the boards really hard. If you want to start rebuilding you've got another thing coming, BC isn't that type of decision maker. He wants to improve each and every season.


Thanks, good points. While Deng isn't nearly the stud Bosh is, I think he'd be a GREAT fit for the Raptors. Whoever called him "aging" is grossly mistaken because Luol Deng just turned 25 years old like a week ago. Is he overpaid? Yes, but he is also productive and gives the Raptors some much needed defense and rebounding, along with his 17-18 ppg.

I can also say that Chicago will likely part w/ Deng since they are concerned about luxury tax. (On that same note, they almost surely won't part with Noah since him & Rose are viewed as cornerstones and the city loves them; and the whole point in getting Bosh would be to pair him with Noah)

However, Colangelo's affinity with "skill" players will likely make him avoid Deng. Deng is not your traditional uber-skilled athletic SF. He is really a hybrid SF/PF who happens to be a very good SF. But, he has his limitations and usually plays within them. I just think this fits very nicely with Bargnani and Turkoglu who are 3-pt shooters and don't play any real D.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

Porn_Player said:


> If DeMar doesn't develop a consistent shot over this summer my guess is he'll never live up to the hype we gave him here.


i don't think raps need derozan to have a 3 pt shot to be successful. his midrange game is pretty good. a lot of his shot attempts are midrange and seems to make them at a decent clip.

weems definitely has more range though. his % isn't great but he's shown enough in summer leagues and practices that he is capable of making that 3 point shot. i wouldn't be worried about weem's shot at all.

i always saw derozan as more of an iguodala type player anyway. he's a better finisher than weems around the rim and pulls of some crafty athletic moves. he's pretty passive though, but that's in part because he seems like a humble guy. if i were jay i'd give him the green light and just run him and weems to the ground, but i've said that enough times already.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

c_dog said:


> i don't think raps need derozan to have a 3 pt shot to be successful. his midrange game is pretty good. a lot of his shot attempts are midrange and seems to make them at a decent clip.


I never said '3pt shot' I just said consistent shot. And he needs to become a really good shooter to generate room for him to blow by his man to get to the rim ala Kobe, T-Mac, LeBron. All these All Stars are great at finishing around the rim but had to work on their shot to allow them opportunities to drive to the basket. 

If DeMar doesn't work on his shot and it's dropping at the same rate as this past year then the D will sag off him and just let him spot up and we'll never see him getting to the rim on a consistent basis. 

He does need some sort of 3pt shot too. What elite SG can't drop the trey?


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Oh and as for Bosh in a S+T. 

We send Bosh. 

OKC send Green + Harden + 2 first rounders they have this year. 

We could then package those 2 picks for a Top 5 pick. I'd be happy with that, especially if we moved Jose for some talent too.


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## cram2 (Apr 27, 2010)

Hey - back after a looong absence.

Have to say i generally (as in, almost always) agree with Ballocks. Not here. If we can get Noah or Oden for Bosh, i say you take it and run. Bosh is obviously a much more valuable asset than either, but i don't know that any team wants to sign him to a max deal AND give up one of their best assets for him.

To me we need to either re-sign Chris and somehow trade a bunch of our assets (Bargnani, Derozan, first round pick(s)) for a star player........or we need to...
- trade Chris for youth (Harden and Ibaka, anyone?)
- somehow dump Turkoglu (hate to sell low, but he is a complete ***-hat and i just want him out of here before he poisons the culture even more).
- suck for a year or two, ideally culminating in a top 5 draft pick or two
- hope bargnani develops.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Porn_Player said:


> We send Bosh.
> 
> OKC send Green + Harden + 2 first rounders they have this year.





cram2 said:


> Hey - back after a looong absence.
> 
> - trade Chris for youth (Harden and Ibaka, anyone?)


Welcome back. 

Seems like our hopes will NOT be coming true. Source



> ESPN's Ric Bucher is doing his best to deny rumors that Oklahoma City could be a potential landing spot for Raptors forward Chris Bosh this summer.
> 
> Bosh is expected to hit the free agent market.
> 
> "And in case it comes up again: Bosh-to-OKC has zero chance of happening for more reasons than I can list in 140 characters," Bucher wrote on his Twitter page.


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## cram2 (Apr 27, 2010)

Porn_Player said:


> Welcome back.
> 
> Seems like our hopes will NOT be coming true. Source


Hot topic of the day, and RIck Bucher wants some attention (or hits). No big deal. Unless he's heard this from Presti or Bosh he is just guessing like the rest of us.

I had an argument with Carefoot on his blog last summer about OKC as a good place for Bosh. He thought i was completely out of my mind (****ty team, small market, etc) and basically stated it as fact that it had no chance of happening.

Carefoot isn't Bucher, but my point is - they're expressing an opinion as though its fact.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Yeah, I hope so. If a S + T is happening for Bosh, I want it with OKC and involving some combo of Green, Harden and picks.


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## cram2 (Apr 27, 2010)

I'd be fine with Green and Sefolosha or Harden and Ibaka.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

Porn_Player said:


> Oh and as for Bosh in a S+T.
> 
> We send Bosh.
> 
> ...


Maybe I'm underrating Bosh, but I don't think the Thunder would be willing to let go of Green. They have a very good chemistry going on over there, on and off the court and Green is a big part of that. A lot of their success also lies in Green's versatility (on offense and defense) and his ability to play the "stretch-4" - trading for Bosh takes that away.

They're one long defensive big man (ala Tyson Chandler on the Hornets) away from really being able to do some damage and Serge Ibaka is shaping up into that kind of player quite nicely.


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## cram2 (Apr 27, 2010)

briaN37 said:


> Maybe I'm underrating Bosh, but I don't think the Thunder would be willing to let go of Green. They have a very good chemistry going on over there, on and off the court and Green is a big part of that. A lot of their success also lies in Green's versatility (on offense and defense) and his ability to play the "stretch-4" - trading for Bosh takes that away.
> 
> They're one long defensive big man (ala Tyson Chandler on the Hornets) away from really being able to do some damage and Serge Ibaka is shaping up into that kind of player quite nicely.


Jeff Green is awesome, and he's versatile, but he's also playing hte 4 because Durant is at the 3. If Durant were a 2 guard don't think for a second that Green wouldn't be playing SF (in kind of a hybrid role, a la marion or deng). He's just too small to be a "POWER" forward. 

Also don't forget that...
- Bosh is in some ways a very rich man's version of Green. He's bigger (enabling him to defend better and play inside more) but much of his offence comes from the same spots
- Bosh is arguably the best PF in the game.....Green is great, but you have to see that Bosh is an upgrade
- OKC's achilles heel against the Lakers (aside from youth and inexperience) is the size difference btwn Gasol/Bynum and Ibaka/Green. Ibaka will fill out, but Green is what he is....undersized.
- unlike many of the stars in the NBA, Bosh comes with very little baggage and ego. He's also quite young. He is less of a chemistry risk than most...
- He also comes from Dallas (2-3 hrs away?)....for a small market team hoping to draw fans and revenue, there are worse players to sign.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

cram2 said:


> Jeff Green is awesome, and he's versatile, but he's also playing hte 4 because Durant is at the 3. If Durant were a 2 guard don't think for a second that Green wouldn't be playing SF (in kind of a hybrid role, a la marion or deng). He's just too small to be a "POWER" forward.
> 
> Also don't forget that...
> - Bosh is in some ways a very rich man's version of Green. He's bigger (enabling him to defend better and play inside more) but much of his offence comes from the same spots
> ...


All valid points, although I think you're underrating Green's scrappy toughness on defense and his ability to shoot the three. The truth is if Green was to be traded, they couldn't find a better match than Chris Bosh. I just don't think the Thunder management would do it for more than just on-court reasons.


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## cram2 (Apr 27, 2010)

briaN37 said:


> All valid points, although I think you're underrating Green's scrappy toughness on defense and his ability to shoot the three. The truth is if Green was to be traded, they couldn't find a better match than Chris Bosh. I just don't think the Thunder management would do it for more than just on-court reasons.


On-court reasons are why most trades are made. 

Green is awesome, and he's an excellent hybrid 3/4. The thing is, when you match him against Gasol/Boozer/Bosh/Amare/etc he gets abused. 

I would love Green on my team. But i would love Bosh even more.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

cram2 said:


> Green is awesome, and he's an excellent hybrid 3/4. The thing is, when you match him against Gasol/Boozer/Bosh/Amare/etc he gets abused.


True, can't argue against this. But while Bosh has size and has the intensity, he is far from a defensive anchor. So trading for him isn't exactly a solution to the problem you brought up earlier about the Lakers big men and size. It's fine when he's playing against weaker, lesser opponents, but the same thing happens when Bosh is matched up against someone like Boozer, he gets abused.



cram2 said:


> I would love Green on my team. But i would love Bosh even more.


Can't argue against this either.

If it was Green for Bosh straight-up, I'd find it hard to believe that the Thunder would say no. But the deal proposed by Porn_Player included Harden and 2 future 1st round picks. I just thought that was too much to give up for yet another option on offense and little improvement on defense.


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## cram2 (Apr 27, 2010)

briaN37 said:


> True, can't argue against this. But while Bosh has size and has the intensity, he is far from a defensive anchor. So trading for him isn't exactly a solution to the problem you brought up earlier about the Lakers big men and size. It's fine when he's playing against weaker, lesser opponents, but the same thing happens when Bosh is matched up against someone like Boozer, he gets abused.


Did you see him on the Olympic team when he didn't have to carry the offensive load? He suddenly became a very good defender. The best big man defender on that team, from what i remember...even moreso than Dwight (albeit in a very different style of game). He'll never be an elite defender, but he's not nearly as bad as many think.....the guy carries the raptors on a nightly basis. Hard to have strength for both.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

cram2 said:


> Did you see him on the Olympic team when he didn't have to carry the offensive load? He suddenly became a very good defender. The best big man defender on that team, from what i remember...even moreso than Dwight (albeit in a very different style of game). He'll never be an elite defender, but he's not nearly as bad as many think.....*the guy carries the raptors on a nightly basis. Hard to have strength for both.*


That's true, and with all the other offensive weapons the Thunder have, he'd be able to focus more on defense. Hmmmm...


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

briaN37 said:


> But the deal proposed by Porn_Player included Harden and 2 future 1st round picks. I just thought that was too much to give up for yet another option on offense and little improvement on defense.


I said I wanted some combo of those assets e.g. Green + Harden, Green + 2 1st rounders, etc etc


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

Oh right, my bad.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

cram2 said:


> Did you see him on the Olympic team when he didn't have to carry the offensive load? He suddenly became a very good defender.


I would question whether that carries over to the NBA. The caliber of athlete he was guarding and the rules/style of play may have been a big factor. Plus the supporting cast. He was not guarding NBA bigs.

Just the fact that you say he did a better job on D than Dwight makes me think those factors were extremely important. Because in the NBA Dwight is a monster on D and can dominate a game without scoring or rebounding well as we saw in the playoffs.

Bosh rarely even ups his D game in the final minutes of tight games when superstars start giving more energy to that side of the game.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

It has been said the raps would want explosive wing man in return and some posted IGGy and holiday if we get Iggy is it worth giving upo DD, both hardly 3 pt shooters only diff is DD raw and iggy a polished explosive wing man but if we are gonna part with DD would you not want a excellent shooter who can shoot and slash to the basket?
Kevin Martin comes to mind but he has no D + a crazy contract.

Joe Jhonson is the type of guy I want wonder if we could work a mega deal with ATL like Bosh Calderon Hedu for JOJO Smith


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

Junkyard Dog13 said:


> It has been said the raps would want explosive wing man in return and some posted IGGy and holiday if we get Iggy is it worth giving upo DD, both hardly 3 pt shooters only diff is DD raw and iggy a polished explosive wing man but if we are gonna part with DD would you not want a excellent shooter who can shoot and slash to the basket?
> Kevin Martin comes to mind but he has no D + a crazy contract.
> 
> Joe Jhonson is the type of guy I want wonder if we could work a mega deal with ATL like Bosh Calderon Hedu for JOJO Smith


I'd stay away from Joe Johnson simply for the fact that hes 30 and looking for a long term almost a max deal I'd question how many years of real production you can get from him at this point


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i don't know how many people agree with me but i'm adamant that this team needs to take a shot now. doesn't matter how risky it is, it just needs to be tried. starting again would be a waste of time. 

when it comes to who to build around, i don't know if there's any choice but bosh. he's far from great and he's known nothing but team failure in this league but no one else even comes close. it's bosh by default. calderon? bargnani? turkoglu? jack? derozan? if this team decides to build around any of those players, you might as well buy your ticket to the '11 lottery now... and probably '12. and by the time 'that' team is ready to compete, most of those players will be past-prime and it'll be time to start again. bosh is the only tie to legitimacy. he's a verifiable all-star and blue-chipper. if he leaves, this city will never forget and it'll probably imbue all the current players, future players, current fans, future fans with an irreversible inferiority complex. the _cloud_ will kill them. (boy, that sounds harsh... but i'm serious. i mean, it's happened before. we still talk about carter- it's been five years. we still talk about mcgrady- it's been 10 years. it's insanity.)

personally, i'd let other teams develop our youth. we shouldn't be spending our time on that. it hasn't proven successful in the past and the trend simply needs to be bucked. the team needs to break the cycle- the opportunity is now, the time is now. the raptors need to take a shot for the sake of taking a shot. i don't know if the culture can stand any more backpedaling. we are so defensive. we're always ducking for cover- on the court, in the stands, in the papers, in the management office... everywhere. we're trying to preserve what we have as if what we have is worth preserving.

dump bargnani on the highest bidder. i don't know if calderon can be shed anymore but i think turkoglu might still command some interest (especially once the fan uproar dies down later in the summer). derozan's obviously a desirable piece. the first rounder can be dealt at the draft. and i'm sure there are teams looking to blow big contracts- but decent players- on desperate squads like toronto. the raps shouldn't even think twice. they've had three disappointing, listless years in a row- right when they claimed they were turning the corner.

what's more, they haven't even suffered a truly debilitating injury throughout the process. they've actually stayed relatively healthy since tj ford. while teams like milwaukee, portland and others are excelling- or at least holding the fort- through acl's, achilles's, microfractures, etc. the raptors complain about being out of shape, a little sore and uncomfortable, not used to game speed, three-games-in-five-nights and other nonsense. 

to his credit, i've never really heard bosh say that. at least not since sam. and i think that attitude alone is worth keeping around... worth _building_ around. the rest of the team historically swallows excuses hook, line and sinker- while the community never stops feeding them. imo, that needs to change. it's time for this team to deal with the fact that their win/loss record is the only measure of success, and is the only thing of any import. like every other team does.

or at least every other _good_ team.

peace


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

Junkyard Dog13 said:


> It has been said the raps would want explosive wing man in return* and some posted IGGy and holiday if we get Iggy *is it worth giving upo DD, both hardly 3 pt shooters only diff is DD raw and iggy a polished explosive wing man but if we are gonna part with DD would you not want a excellent shooter who can shoot and slash to the basket?
> Kevin Martin comes to mind but he has no D + a crazy contract.
> 
> Joe Jhonson is the type of guy I want wonder if we could work a mega deal with *ATL like Bosh Calderon Hedu for JOJO Smith*



I don't think the sixers are looking to get rid of Holiday. Let's face it, given bosh's current situation Iggy alone would be more than fair. 

Bosh to Atlanta in a S&T is starting to make a lot of sense. He played his college ball there and Atlanta is going to be making some changes if they are bounced by the bucks. Say what you will about bosh, but he has better intangibles than anyone on that team.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

ballocks said:


> i don't know how many people agree with me but i'm adamant that this team needs to take a shot now. doesn't matter how risky it is, it just needs to be tried. starting again would be a waste of time.
> 
> when it comes to who to build around, i don't know if there's any choice but bosh. he's far from great and he's known nothing but team failure in this league but no one else even comes close. it's bosh by default*. calderon? bargnani? turkoglu? jack? derozan? *if this team decides to build around any of those players, you might as well buy your ticket to the '11 lottery now... and probably '12. and by the time 'that' team is ready to compete, most of those players will be past-prime and it'll be time to start again. bosh is the only tie to legitimacy. he's a verifiable all-star and blue-chipper. if he leaves, this city will never forget and it'll probably imbue all the current players, future players, current fans, future fans with an irreversible inferiority complex. the _cloud_ will kill them. (boy, that sounds harsh... but i'm serious. i mean, it's happened before. we still talk about carter- it's been five years. we still talk about mcgrady- it's been 10 years. it's insanity.)
> 
> ...



Ya, the raptors have made the decision to "build around" jarred jack, a career backup journeyman PG. 

FYI bosh is leaving and bargnaini isn't being traded. We all know that the team will be the same except Bargnaini will get more 18ft jumpers off pick and pops (instead of bosh). I'm not saying i approve, it's just what's going to happen.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

I just heard on the lakers board that a Bosh/Bynum deal might be possible. I know that phil jackson has always liked bosh.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

mo76 said:


> I just heard on the lakers board that a Bosh/Bynum deal might be possible. I know that phil jackson has always liked bosh.


That is a rumour that is definitely getting a lot of play. Not sure I believe the Lakers considering such big move in the middle of trying to defend their title. Maybe they think a big body C is no longer necessary? Is Pau/Bosh/Odom enough up front? Odom, Yao, and Dwight are the big C's they have to contend with. Maybe Lopez.

I am sure LAL would appeal to Bosh although he would be a minor star in LA. So many media opportunities for him.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

mo76 said:


> Ya, the raptors have made the decision to "build around" jarred jack, a career backup journeyman PG.
> 
> FYI bosh is leaving and bargnaini isn't being traded. We all know that the team will be the same except Bargnaini will get more 18ft jumpers off pick and pops (instead of bosh). I'm not saying i approve, it's just what's going to happen.


nobody's leaving. nobody's staying. nobody's anywhere right now. this league is full of emotional personalities that stop and turn on a dime. anyone who thinks bosh is already gone is only demonstrating the insecurity that i'm talking about. that's exactly the point. 

this community is so mired in self-pity and self-hatred, i don't even know what to do. our fears are like self-fulfilling prophecies because we follow them through like nobody's business. if we showed as much commitment in having success as we do in telling people not to expect much out of us, we'd be so much better off. we are so focused in not getting what we want that we almost never fail in that regard. it's extraordinary.

if you make a serious sales pitch to bosh, if this city explodes in the will to keep him, if colangelo turns over the roster again in an obvious attempt to satify his star player, bosh is absolutely not going anywhere. he doesn't have the balls to do that. _you_ don't have the balls to do that. nobody has the balls to do that unless they're a 21 year-old kid begging for momma's home cooking.

but it's like we don't feel we deserve keeping him. we'd rather run for cover because... well, because that's what we do. that's how we roll around here. 

if there's anyone who actually believes that this team can become better by trading away its franchise player- a dream teamer who leaves his heart on the court, is well spoken, is a media darling, is in his prime and loves this city- then i think they're certifiably insane. bosh isn't gold. but when you come this close to winning, you're just going to belly up and dump your only player worth keeping? how does that make any sense?

it doesn't. unless you're living in this city, a community that starves itself because it doesn't want to face success... it doesn't feel it deserves success. it's so nasty, i see it on the faces of kids on the blacktop every day and i can't take it anymore. nobody can walk the walk because that's just too hard. we'd all rather just b/s and pretend like we're doing something when we know we're not. 

peace


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

I disagree with you on this Ballocks. Why would Bosh stay? It would defy all logic for him to do that. Even a guy born and raised in Toronto (and lets say he even played ball at UoT and somehow got drafted) would have to be more than tempted to leave after 7 years of losing and looking at the crappy capped out roster. Maybe if your parents were sick or your kids loved their school here you sacrifice and stay for them. Otherwise you leave.

I do not see Bosh wanting to go West for any team other than LAL or DAL.

You get far more exposure in the East (half of the country is asleep for the West games), its an easier path to the Finals, and probably easier to remain an all star too (have not really looked but all those 50 win teams make it much more competitive.

Lakers are legit contenders the next few years and very high profile. DAL has won 50 games for 10 straight years and Cuban makes big moves to get top players for Dirk.


If I try to think like Bosh the teams I am looking at closely are:

MIA - knows Wade is there but what else is Riley planning - should be at least top 3 seed for years.
CHI - Rose and Noah great young tandem to join if you believe you are a difference maker. But who is coach and is ownership willing to spend big money?
NY - if they can land that other star its a place you know will spend whatever it takes and the coach and city appeals to stars as well
LAL - obvious title contenders for a few years

These also happen to be the biggest markets in the US.

DAL has an outside shot of being in the running due to Cuban, talent level there, and hometown
CLE - not sure Bosh could see himself in CLE but I suppose its possible - title contender for years

not being considered

OKC - too small a market and have to face so many tough West teams. No veterans or playoff success yet.
SAS - I would be too worried about the slippage this year and the health of Manu/Timmy/Tony in a very tough West conference

I just don't see any other situations that appeal to him. And I expect Bosh to tell BC that 1 of those top 4 is his final choice and to make it happen.

If he stays you really have to question WHY?


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

yeah, i never said to keep the supporting cast intact. that's exactly what they _shouldn't_ do. this team has proven that it doesn't work together, so much so that we wonder if they're trying their hardest at times. insanity.

change is the only option.

but trading chris bosh should be the last move. we've all heard colangelo pat himself on the back for his tradeable contracts- so now's time to prove it. teams call him about bargnani? prove it. calderon? prove it. the rest? prove it.

if those guys can be moved for a few veteran players with bigger tags and longer terms, now's the time. you re-sign bosh and move everybody else (if that's what it takes) to bring back some star power and, like you said, assemble a team that looks as promising to him as any other. 

you don't pick bargnani over bosh. as if the last four years haven't been bad enough. you let someone else worry about getting the best out of him while you reap the benefits of acquiring players who've already proven themselves.

if the raptors are as flexible as they claim, they should use said flexibility to keep their only player worth keeping. he's the leader. he's the only player who even mentioned that change is necessary for this team at his exit interview (with the press)- the rest of them fled the coup as if they couldn't care less (maybe that's why they played that way?). if colangelo dumps his only player not satisfied with a 40-win season, i don't know how anyone can hold a straight face and tell me he's trying to win.

i don't care how stubborn colangelo is. chris bosh is the toronto raptors. if colangelo made a mistake in the 2006 draft, the worst thing to do would be to go through another summer without addressing the real problem. 

you do everything in your power to keep chris bosh happy right now. if it doesn't work, you can always move him later (because he commands that kind of respect around the league). you don't choose to build around players that nobody else wants. that's the inferiority complex i'm talking about.

you dump everyone else, find a few expensive stars and fill in the holes with kendrick perkins, leon powe, glen davis, eddie house, pj brown and sam cassell - oh wait, has this not been done before?

peace


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I think Colangelo would try his best to convince Bosh to stay because I honestly don't think he will be able to remain as GM through the rebuilding years. With Bosh around you still have a chance to strike gold on some trade and have a chance to at least build a respectable team. If you look at teams like the Bobcats and Bucks, Salmons and Stephen Jackson played major roles in helping those 2 teams turn it around.

Personally I don't care if Bosh leaves or stays. But if I'm Colangelo I would be doing all I can to make him stay. Bosh leaving will involve a couple high lottery years and if I'm Colangelo I want no part in that.


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## Raptor (Feb 26, 2004)

MLSe and BC want Bosh to stay because they don't want to take risk on their business, they will make a lot of money and continue build around Bosh, this is safe way, they will invest more on the team to bring star player come and willing to pay lux tax.
MLSE will spend alot more money for both team Hockey and Basketball next year, special in basketball because there is only one basketball team in canada this is the key for MLSE to invest on this team.
so Bosh will stay for sure.
Peace


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

i actually see plenty of reasons for bosh to stay. i think bosh knows that a percentage of hardcore raps fans have grown sour with him though, and quite frankly could care less if he's gone.

miami is not a desirable destination because riley has sworn to get wade some help for years now(since 2005) and 5 years later he has nothing but a few lottery picks and first round exits to show for it. riley has a tough reputation around the league but teams aren't going to give him lopsided deals just because he's riley, and ultimately miami can only work with what they have, which isn't much. bosh would have to sacrifice some money(mostly endorsement by losing the canadian market), a lot of ego(since wade will still be the face of the franchise). there's the argument that bosh will be more popular if he plays for the states but i don't think so. canada has a stronger economy at this point and raptors basically represent canada, not just toronto. bosh has been a multiple all-star and US team member that US fans know who he is and most of them who like him would buy his stuff, so really, he has more to lose than gain by going south. ultimately, i don't see bosh making a whole lot of difference for the heat for them to become top 3. they're at best borderline 4th seed.

bulls dont look that appealing either because while rose and noah are nice, noah most likely has to go in order to bring in bosh. toronto isn't about to trade bosh for kirk hinrich or luol deng. i'm not convinced bosh and rose will be able to be a contender in the east, if wade and bosh aren't contenders.

NY is just a mess and really, nobody dares going there at the moment. You can tease the fans like LB and make some money off them as they line up for your jerseys, but you don't want to go there.

LAL is stacked at the bigman position so i don't see them wanting bosh, nevermind having any way of acquiring him anyway.

OKC is actually a threat to get bosh. nice pieces, big fans, and while they're a "small market" their owner has market the team towards the millionaires that the team is able to sustain itself just having a few loyal(and wealthy) customers.


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

c_dog said:


> i actually see plenty of reasons for bosh to stay. i think bosh knows that a percentage of hardcore raps fans have grown sour with him though, and quite frankly could care less if he's gone.
> 
> miami is not a desirable destination because riley has sworn to get wade some help for years now(since 2005) and 5 years later he has nothing but a few lottery picks and first round exits to show for it. riley has a tough reputation around the league but teams aren't going to give him lopsided deals just because he's riley, and ultimately miami can only work with what they have, which isn't much. bosh would have to sacrifice some money(mostly endorsement by losing the canadian market), a lot of ego(since wade will still be the face of the franchise). there's the argument that bosh will be more popular if he plays for the states but i don't think so. canada has a stronger economy at this point and raptors basically represent canada, not just toronto. bosh has been a multiple all-star and US team member that US fans know who he is and most of them who like him would buy his stuff, so really, he has more to lose than gain by going south. ultimately, i don't see bosh making a whole lot of difference for the heat for them to become top 3. they're at best borderline 4th seed.
> 
> ...


WTF are you talking about? You're saying that OKC has a lot of luxury boxes or something? You're saying that the thunder have boosters (ya, I'll be just like an owner except i'll make no money, lol) or shared ownership like the Green Bay Packers? Selling a couple extra jerseys and a "few" extra season tickets isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.
How is the team "marketed" to millionaires? I don't get it? 
I seriously think you have no ****ing clue what you are talking about.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

mo76 said:


> WTF are you talking about? You're saying that OKC has a lot of luxury boxes or something? You're saying that the thunder have boosters (ya, I'll be just like an owner except i'll make no money, lol) or shared ownership like the Green Bay Packers? Selling a couple extra jerseys and a "few" extra season tickets isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.
> How is the team "marketed" to millionaires? I don't get it?
> I seriously think you have no ****ing clue what you are talking about.


Mo, dude, relax. You are totally overlooking the fact that when you own the building you get 100% of the profits from the gambling, prostitution, and drug use of your millionaire clientele. Add in a little extortion after a few years and those millionaire fans will sustain your franchise by themselves.

MLSE is looking into this as we speak, although they did reject one business plan last year that involved kidnapping children. Corporate lawyers got a little scared of that one. Dog-napping however is still under consideration.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Bosh and Gasol duo would not work both love taking jumpshots and Gasol is just not a true C.
If Bosh to Atlanta we better get Josh Smith out of it.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

mo76 said:


> WTF are you talking about? You're saying that OKC has a lot of luxury boxes or something? You're saying that the thunder have boosters (ya, I'll be just like an owner except i'll make no money, lol) or shared ownership like the Green Bay Packers? Selling a couple extra jerseys and a "few" extra season tickets isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.
> How is the team "marketed" to millionaires? I don't get it?
> I seriously think you have no ****ing clue what you are talking about.


I don't have the explicit details as to exactly how it works but yes, ford center definitely has a lot more luxury boxes than most nba stadiums. It's one of the reasons the owner decided to move them to OKC from seatle, because the stadium essentially would generate more profit. More court side tickets, more luxury boxes, upscale restaurants, luxury suites, etc. I used "market to millionaires" as a figure of speech so you didn't have to make it so literal. certainly more than a few people who go to these luxury suites are just looking to splurge some extra cash than being actual millionaires, but you get the point. thunder have a entire different marketing strategy, and it's working very well for them. they're marketing towards people who have big bank accounts rather than the middle class. they turn those undesireable sections into luxury boxes so they become more desireable and can charge more(a lot more) for each seat.

anyway you need to calm down. think of profit = number of people x money spent by person. If you can make each person spend more money then you can make more profit, even if you manage to fit less people into the stadium. keep in mind that at the moment, it's not like OKC is in short of demand, as most of their games are packed...


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## mo76 (Jun 13, 2003)

> think of profit = number of people x money spent by person.


.

:sarcasm:


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

you can ignore that formula, but you can't deny that okc seems to have a good marketing strategy which works. the idea to have luxury suites, lounges, and upscale restaurants at the ford center is absolutely brilliant. whoever designed the infrastructure obviously knows what he was doing.


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