# 2005 Celtics Offseason/Draft Discussion Thread



## vandyke

Does anyone know what the conditions were on the pick we owe Atlanta for the Antoine trade, I was under the impression that we owe Atlanta the lesser of the two picks between us and the pick we are getting from the Lakers (Hey Kupchak how is that trade working out for you?), but I believe that the Laker pick is lottery protected this year and it is looking pretty likely that the Lakers aren't going to make the playoffs this year, does that mean that we would have to give Atlanta our pick this year and not have a pick, or would Atlanta have to wait until we do get the LA pick and receive the lesser of the two picks, does anybody know?


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## Premier

*Re: Question on pick we owe Atlanta?*

I heard that we give our 2006 first-round pick if LA doesn't make the playoffs. Should be a weak year anyways with the new under 20 rule being implanted.


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## Truth34

*Re: Question on pick we owe Atlanta?*

I heard different. If the Lakers go to the lottery, and it looks like they will, Atlanta gets our pick.

Next year we get the Laker pick, and it is only Top-10 protected.

Face it, with 6 players 22 or younger, and Ricky still very young, we don't need draft picks.

Here's what we have if the season ended today:

2005

0 1st round picks
2 2nd round picks (Boston, Sacramento (Songaila)

2006

2 1st round picks (Boston, LAL (Payton--Top 10 protected)
2 2nd round picks (Boston, Golden State--Top 38 protected)

2007

2 1st round picks (Boston, Cleveland (Jiri--lottery protected)
1 2nd round pick (Boston)


Now, anybody want to join my "In Danny We Trust" fan club?


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## vandyke

*Re: Question on pick we owe Atlanta?*



Truth34 said:


> I heard different. If the Lakers go to the lottery, and it looks like they will, Atlanta gets our pick.
> 
> Next year we get the Laker pick, and it is only Top-10 protected.
> 
> Face it, with 6 players 22 or younger, and Ricky still very young, we don't need draft picks.
> 
> Here's what we have if the season ended today:
> 
> 2005
> 
> 0 1st round picks
> 2 2nd round picks (Boston, Sacramento (Songaila)
> 
> 2006
> 
> 2 1st round picks (Boston, LAL (Payton--Top 10 protected)
> 2 2nd round picks (Boston, Golden State--Top 38 protected)
> 
> 2007
> 
> 2 1st round picks (Boston, Cleveland (Jiri--lottery protected)
> 1 2nd round pick (Boston)
> 
> 
> Now, anybody want to join my "In Danny We Trust" fan club?



Either way good stuff, I would prefer that we have at least one pick every year but you can't have everything, I just think that with the way these stupid GM's pick every year that someone good could fall to us this year just like Jefferson, West, and Allen last year, but regardless what a great job by Ainge, Pity the fool who doesn't join the "In Danny We Trust" fan club.


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## PatBateman

*Re: Question on pick we owe Atlanta?*



Truth34 said:


> I heard different. If the Lakers go to the lottery, and it looks like they will, Atlanta gets our pick.
> 
> Next year we get the Laker pick, and it is only Top-10 protected.
> 
> Face it, with 6 players 22 or younger, and Ricky still very young, we don't need draft picks.
> 
> Here's what we have if the season ended today:
> 
> 2005
> 
> 0 1st round picks
> 2 2nd round picks (Boston, Sacramento (Songaila)
> 
> 2006
> 
> 2 1st round picks (Boston, LAL (Payton--Top 10 protected)
> 2 2nd round picks (Boston, Golden State--Top 38 protected)
> 
> 2007
> 
> 2 1st round picks (Boston, Cleveland (Jiri--lottery protected)
> 1 2nd round pick (Boston)
> 
> 
> Now, anybody want to join my "In Danny We Trust" fan club?


I think maybe you forgot the Waltah Phoenix pick? 

:biggrin:


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## aquaitious

*Re: Question on pick we owe Atlanta?*

As far as I know:

Atlanta gets the pick this year ONLY if we get both the picks, and they get the worser of the picks.

OR

Atlanta gets our pick from next year. This means that we might get LA's pick next year, and give Atlanta ours.


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## aquaitious

*Re: Question on pick we owe Atlanta?*



Truth34 said:


> 2005
> 
> 0 1st round picks
> 2 2nd round picks (Boston, Sacramento (Songaila)
> 
> 2006
> 
> 2 1st round picks (Boston, LAL (Payton--Top 10 protected)
> 2 2nd round picks (Boston, Golden State--Top 38 protected)
> 
> 2007
> 
> 2 1st round picks (Boston, Cleveland (Jiri--lottery protected)
> 1 2nd round pick (Boston)
> 
> 
> Now, anybody want to join my "In Danny We Trust" fan club?


2005:
2 1st Rounder (Celtics, Lakers*)
3 2nd Rounders (Celtics, Kings, Warriors*)

*These two picks may be used in 2006. LA's top 10 protected, and I don't think the Warriors pick is protected next year.

2006:
1 1st Rounder (Celtics)
1 2nd Rounder (Celtics)

2007
2 1st Rounders (Celtics, Cavs)
1 2nd Rounder (Celtics)


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## Truth34

*Final Word On This*

After hearing Mike Gorman last night:

*2005 * (assuming Lakers miss playoffs)

1 first round pick (Celtics)
2 second round picks (Celtics, Kings)

*2006*

1 first round pick (Hawks get worst between Lakers (Top 10 protected) and Celtics
2 second round picks (Celtics, Warriors (top 38 protected)

*2007*
2 first round picks (Celtics, Cavs)
1 second round pick


So this means we do get a 1st this year. If the Lakers make the playoffs, they'll probably have a better record than us, so the Hawks would get their pick.

I'm thinking the best scenario is that Denver stays hot, makes the playoffs, and we get our own pick, plus that Laker pick next year is only Top 10 protected. Atlanta would get the worse of the two picks next year. BATEMAN, the Waltah Phoenix pick is actually a Golden State pick. That Golden State 2nd rounder is top 38 protected next year.


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## vandyke

*Re: Question on pick we owe Atlanta?*

So with that being said is there anybody out there who may declare that would fall in that #15-17 pick range that we will probably be looking at. One person I think is intriguing right now is Daniel Gibson from Texas, but what I am hoping is that with the threat of an age limit that a lot of people will declare this year and that this actually may be a deep draft.


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## PatBateman

*Re: Final Word On This*



Truth34 said:


> After hearing Mike Gorman last night:
> 
> *2005 * (assuming Lakers miss playoffs)
> 
> 1 first round pick (Celtics)
> 2 second round picks (Celtics, Kings)
> 
> *2006*
> 
> 1 first round pick (Hawks get worst between Lakers (Top 10 protected) and Celtics
> 2 second round picks (Celtics, Warriors (top 38 protected)
> 
> *2007*
> 2 first round picks (Celtics, Cavs)
> 1 second round pick
> 
> 
> So this means we do get a 1st this year. If the Lakers make the playoffs, they'll probably have a better record than us, so the Hawks would get their pick.
> 
> I'm thinking the best scenario is that Denver stays hot, makes the playoffs, and we get our own pick, plus that Laker pick next year is only Top 10 protected. Atlanta would get the worse of the two picks next year. BATEMAN, the Waltah Phoenix pick is actually a Golden State pick. That Golden State 2nd rounder is top 38 protected next year.


Thanks, I caught that after posting. I agree with your assesment. In any case, apparently the Celtics are guaranteed of a 1st round pick this year. Trade up for Hakim Warrick baby!!!


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## Premier

*2005 Boston Celtics Draft/Offseason Thread*

We are about to run away with the Atlantic Division. Go into the playoffs with an underdog mentality and hopefully win a series or two. What do I do? I make a draft/offseason thread. So after the Antoine Walker and Jiri Welsch trade, our roster has been revamped, slightly changing our draft needs that we discussed prior to the all-star break. Looking forward at the college and international draft crop, one can tell that this draft is deep, with plenty of power forwards and point guards. We will fill some of slots with small free agent signings in the off-season. So first, we need to decide on our team need (s) of the most important value. Our current roster:

C: Raef Lafrentz / Mark Blount / Kendrick Perkins
PF: Antoine Walker / Al Jefferson
SF: Paul Pierce / Justin Reed
SG: Tony Allen / Ricky Davis
PG: Gary Payton / Delonte West / Marcus Banks

First, let's make some educated assumptions. Let us postulate that Antoine Walker (6.5 million with Birds Rights) and Justin Reed (minimum) being resigned in the offseason. For now, let's assume that Gary Payton doesn't come back leaving us with the same roster sans Payton. Danny Ainge could possible pull off a Blount or Lafrentz trade sometime before next year's deadline, but let's not assume that. From looking at that roster, there isn't really a "weak" position, but we don't have any superstars.

Now, we all know that we want immediate sucess, but it always helps to look into the future. Our center position, excluding Kendrick Perkins, has proven to be average. We can deal with this for the next couple of seasons, but a change will soon be needed. Ideally we (I) want, a three man front-court rotation of Jefferson, Player A, and Perkins with Antoine getting minutes at PF, SF, and PG (occasionally). Let's assess what we have right now. Perkins is projected to be an enforcer and defensive stopper. His offensive game is limited as of now, but I like him to become a solid, hard-working player. Now I might be biased, but I, like most Celtic fans, see Al Jefferson as a future star. His offensive game is good, with his array of post moves and good low-block mentality. Right now, his conditioning, defense, rebounding position, and passing need work. With two opposite players complimenting each other, a third balanced big man would be perfect. Now, concerning the draft, if a projected star is available where the Celtics are picking, I think he should be selected regardless of position. But, if the talent is even, a center/power forward hybrid would be great, especially considering that they are getting harder to find. 

Earlier in the season, I heavily proclaimed that Hakim Warrick would be an ideal selection after hearing encouraging reports on him and watching him dominate in the Big East, but that was before the Walker traded. With and improved Jefferson, Perkins, and Blount (hopefully), Walker should split his minutes in the PF/SF positions while playing point guard sparingly. This means less minutes for Pierce, Davis, and Allen. If we select a raw center, no ones minutes will decrease as we will bring him along slowly as we did with Perkins. Warrick is a ready player meaning he needs 15 minutes immediatly. We can't find time for him and considering SF is an easy position to fill, unlike center, I think we shouldn't select him. Now let's judge our potential first round pick and where we will end up:

Right now, I feel that we are poised to take the Atlantic. Realistically, we will end up with 42-45 wins and a third seed. Let's do two scenarios regarding our draft pick:

One, the Los Angeles Lakers miss the playoffs. We do not get their pick this year. This means we end up with our pick, which will be from 15-18. Two, the Lakers make a late-season run and end up with the eighth seed. This means that they will likely have the higher record and we do get their selection this year. Atlanta is owed the lesser of our two picks, so we give them Los Angeles'. We end up with a first round pick around 15-18. Now, let's look at our potential draftee:

Johan Petro is the player we (the Celtics) need. He is a balance big-man capable of playing alongside Kendrick Perkins or Al Jefferson. He could be the center when Jefferson (6' 10") is in or the PF/C when Kendrick Perkins (a strong 6' 11") is in. He is one of the most athleitc big men in this years draft and he has the ability to block shots. Petro is still raw on offense, relying on his baby hook, but he has time to learn. We draft Petro because we don't need a player from any other position and we could leave him in France like New Jersey did with Nenad Kristic for a season or two. With our second round pick we could look at an athletic shooting guard From reading his profile, Alan Anderson seems to fit and he would be around where the Celtics are picking. Some might say our point guard position needs work and we should use our first round selection to draft a point guard, but I think West, Mardcus Banks, and possibly a veteran free agent (veterans minimum) could man the point with Walker and Ricky Davis playing point forward from time to time. Now, our roster looks like this:

C: Lafrentz/Blount/Perkins
PF: Walker/Jefferson/Perkins
SF: Pierce/Davis/Reed
SG: Allen/Davis/West/Anderson
PG: M. Banks/West/Rod Strickland?


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## aquaitious

*Re: Final Word On This*



Truth34 said:


> 1 first round pick (Hawks get worst between Lakers (Top 10 protected) and Celtics
> 2 second round picks (Celtics, Warriors (top 38 protected)



You sure it's top 38 protected and not 40? And are you sure it's 2006 not 2005?

I thought I saw 2005 top 40 protected...


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## aquaitious

*Re: 2005 Boston Celtics Draft/Offseason Thread*

Someone lock this till the offseason. 

I dunno about you man, but right now I'm thinking playoffs baby.


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## LX

*Re: 2005 Boston Celtics Draft/Offseason Thread*

Eh, I'll probably just sticky this so we can keep this up for discussion. But, yea we should be worrying about the stretch run/playoffs right now.


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## celticsfuture34

*Re: 2005 Boston Celtics Draft/Offseason Thread*

We should get a small forward. Mabye Ryan Gomes.


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## Truth34

*GS Pick*

It is 2005 Top-40 protected. Unless Golden State wins 20 in a row or so, they will not be in the top 20 teams, so they will fall somewhere between 33 and 40.

So next year it is Top 38 protected. We might get it next year. Depends on Baron Davis's health, probably.


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## LX

*Re: GS Pick*

Alright fellas, I'm going to merge this with the offseason thread as it pertains to the off-season. Let's get that thread bumping.


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## aquaitious

*Re: 2005 Boston Celtics Draft/Offseason Thread*



Premiere said:


> We are about to run away with the Atlantic Division. Go into the playoffs with an underdog mentality and hopefully win a series or two. What do I do? I make a draft/offseason thread. So after the Antoine Walker and Jiri Welsch trade, our roster has been revamped, slightly changing our draft needs that we discussed prior to the all-star break. Looking forward at the college and international draft crop, one can tell that this draft is deep, with plenty of power forwards and point guards. We will fill some of slots with small free agent signings in the off-season. So first, we need to decide on our team need (s) of the most important value. Our current roster:
> 
> C: Raef Lafrentz / Mark Blount / Kendrick Perkins
> PF: Antoine Walker / Al Jefferson
> SF: Paul Pierce / Justin Reed
> SG: Tony Allen / Ricky Davis
> PG: Gary Payton / Delonte West / Marcus Banks
> 
> First, let's make some educated assumptions. Let us postulate that Antoine Walker and Justin Reed being resigned in the offseason. For now, let's assume that Gary Payton doesn't come back leaving us with the same roster sans Payton. Danny Ainge could possible pull off a Blount or Lafrentz trade sometime before next year's deadline, but let's not assume that. From looking at that roster, there isn't really a "weak" position, but we don't have any superstars.
> 
> Now, we all know that we want immediate sucess, but it always helps to look into the future. Our center position, excluding Kendrick Perkins, has proven to be average. We can deal with this for the next couple of seasons, but a change will soon be needed. Ideally we (I) want, a three man front-court rotation of Jefferson, Player A, and Perkins with Antoine getting minutes at PF, SF, and PG (occasionally). Let's assess what we have right now. Perkins is projected to be an enforcer and defensive stopper. His offensive game is limited as of now, but I like him to become a solid, hard-working player. Now I might be biased, but I, like most Celtic fans, see Al Jefferson as a future star. His offensive game is good, with his array of post moves and good low-block mentality. Right now, his conditioning, defense, rebounding position, and passing need work. With two opposite players complimenting each other, a third balanced big man would be perfect. Now, concerning the draft, if a projected star is available where the Celtics are picking, I think he should be selected regardless of position. But, if the talent is even, a center/power forward hybrid would be great, especially considering that they are getting harder to find.
> 
> Earlier in the season, I heavily proclaimed that Hakim Warrick would be an ideal selection after hearing encouraging reports on him and watching him dominate in the Big East, but that was before the Walker traded. With and improved Jefferson, Perkins, and Blount (hopefully), Walker should split his minutes in the PF/SF positions while playing point guard sparingly. This means less minutes for Pierce, Davis, and Allen. If we select a raw center, no ones minutes will decrease as we will bring him along slowly as we did with Perkins. Warrick is a ready player meaning he needs 15 minutes immediatly. We can't find time for him and considering SF is an easy position to fill, unlike center, I think we shouldn't select him. Now let's judge our potential first round pick and where we will end up:
> 
> Right now, I feel that we are poised to take the Atlantic. Realistically, we will end up with 42-45 wins and a third seed. Let's do two scenarios regarding our draft pick:
> 
> One, the Los Angeles Lakers miss the playoffs. We do not get their pick this year. This means we end up with our pick, which will be from 15-18. Two, the Lakers make a late-season run and end up with the eighth seed. This means that they will likely have the higher record and we do get their selection this year. Atlanta is owed the lesser of our two picks, so we give them Los Angeles'. We end up with a first round pick around 15-18. Now, let's look at our potential draftee:
> 
> I'm sick of writing. Johan Petro.


Nice post, but I wouldn't be drafting an international big guy. What I would be in favor though, is drafting a international point guard. Those are always fun to have, and most of them are much more fundemental then the 1's in the states.

Drafting international big men scares me. Maybe in the 2nd round where the risks aren't too big (Okur, and while Manu isn't a big guy, he plays like one...and as a small one too).

Also, I just don't see us resigning Toine without getting rid of Blount and/or Reaf first. Both of these guys' contracts are huge, and somehow we already have 2 future starters (AT LEAST) waiting to break out. That would be major back up money at the 4/5 wasted.

The other thing is, I don't see Ricky being happy next year comming from the bench. If he wins 6th man or not, I think he'll want to be starting again and play in the begining and in the end.

Tommy also mentioned this, but where do we really have a need? Maybe PG, or maybe we'll see one of these two points break out sometime soon. The big man look to be set, and having Ricky, Pierce and Allen on the same team makes us pretty much set at the SF/SG position, too.

Maybe the best thing to do is to trade up, but I don't see a lot of people going after mid to late 2nd rounders, and I don't think Danny's going to move any of his young guys to get a higher pick.


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## Truth34

*Let's enjoy 2005 first*

Guys, 

I am not even worried about the offseason. I like what Danny has done getting picks, and I think the Antoine trade is the trade of the year.

In Danny I Trust. You guys can talk offseason. 

But you better focus on the here and now. Antoine and Paul and Gary and Co. could do something.

Start the Pistons game thread. That is everything right now.


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## Rizzah

*Re: Question on pick we owe Atlanta?*

Whoa, whoa, whoa, "In Danny We Trust"?

In Belicheck I trust, in Theo I trust. In Danny?

This is Danny Ainge we're talking about, the meticulous, overtinkering Danny Ainge, the guy who makes about six unnecessary moves per week in your fantasy move. The man who handed Mark Blount a huge contract and traded for Raef LaFrentz, who graduated from the Brad Sellers School of big guys who prefer to be 20 feet from the basket. I know he's going to do SOMETHING stupid this summer. I can't let him off the hook just yet.

That said, I'm still on the fence on Antoine. I love him to death; I was always one of his biggest defenders the last time he was in town, but after we gave him an extension in '99, he showed up out of shape and shot his way out of town. If we do re-sign him, we'll probably need to go after a PG in the draft, because I like Delonte West, but I'm not 100% sold on him. At this point the chances of Deron Williams falling to our draft spot (assuming we have a #1 this year) are nil, but I've actually seen Jarrett Jack slide pretty far in some mocks.

If Antoine does leave, PF/C becomes a necessity, in which case guys like Shelden Williams (assuming he declares), Ike Diogu (ditto), or Channing Frye become possibilities.


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## toolatetoride

*Offseason to-do's*

With respect to the Walker situation, I think we should release him. Jefferson is coming on too fast to keep Walker, unless they came up with some genius idea. We cant move Walker to SF, because even if we put Ricky at PG and PP at SG we still have two up and coming PG's so thatsa out of the question. One idea is to move Jefferson to Center, but I dont really see him getting the job done as a long term center at only 6'10".

So...release Walker, lock up all our contracts and two last thing.s..

In my opinion, we made a mistake releasing McCarty. Every team needs a consistent three point shooter. Im a strong believer in the veteran three point shooter a la McCarty, Steve Kerr, Eric Piatkowski. I dont see a consisten three point shooter like that on this squad. Our depth is great, Our starters are awesome, but the last thing that should be trying to jump on a Center in the draft. Draft a huge man, no 6'11" nonsense, 7'0, 7'1. We need a huge presence down low that can block shots like crazy and defend well. We dont need scoring. Although I like Blount, i dont see him being the starting center for much long....

That is all, random thoughts, hope you understand it all...


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## KJay

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

good stuff, the only problem with 7'1 players now, is that they are three point shooters now.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

there is no way they should release walker...did u not see how much of an impact he had on the team when he came back?...yes jefferson is playing very well but who says we cant keep both?...i think jefferson is very servicable at the center position he is only 1 inch shorther than raef so height isnt an issue...and lets say they keep walker he can play 35-38 min a game split between pf and sf...leaving plenty of minutes for al and ricky...if they get rid of walker it will be the worst decision theyve ever made...again...


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## Al Jefferson

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



toolatetoride said:


> With respect to the Walker situation, I think we should release him. Jefferson is coming on too fast to keep Walker, unless they came up with some genius idea. We cant move Walker to SF, because even if we put Ricky at PG and PP at SG we still have two up and coming PG's so thatsa out of the question. One idea is to move Jefferson to Center, but I dont really see him getting the job done as a long term center at only 6'10".
> 
> So...release Walker, lock up all our contracts and two last thing.s..
> 
> In my opinion, we made a mistake releasing McCarty. Every team needs a consistent three point shooter. Im a strong believer in the veteran three point shooter a la McCarty, Steve Kerr, Eric Piatkowski. I dont see a consisten three point shooter like that on this squad. Our depth is great, Our starters are awesome, but the last thing that should be trying to jump on a Center in the draft. Draft a huge man, no 6'11" nonsense, 7'0, 7'1. We need a huge presence down low that can block shots like crazy and defend well. We dont need scoring. Although I like Blount, i dont see him being the starting center for much long....
> 
> That is all, random thoughts, hope you understand it all...


Couldn't have said it better myself.
Nice post.

PdP


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## Premier

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

First of all, we cannot release Walker in the off-season (his contract is due). 

I cringe when I hear Jefferson is coming too fast. After watching the last 15 or so games, it is apparent that he has hit the rookie wall. It happens to the best of them. Remember, he is fresh out of a high school where he faced little to none competition. 

Why can't we move Antoine to SF and why do we have to? Jefferson won't be ready to start next year. Perkins isn't either. Ricky Davis comes off the bench and he seems happy there. Even if we decide to start him, Antoine, Pierce, and Davis wouldn't be playing the majority of their minutes together (although you never know with Doc Rivers). There would be too much of a drop off between the first and second unit as Rivers barely combines them.

Who said you can't be 6'10" to play center (even though Jefferson isn't going to start next season)? Have you seen the Eastern Conference. The only centers are Shaq, Curry, and Z. 

McCarty a consistent three point shooter. :rofl:

Johan Petro.


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## Al Jefferson

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



Premier said:


> Who said you can't be 6'10" to play center.



Ben Wallace plays the Center spot really well to be under 6'10"...

PdP


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## KingHandles

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

Jefferson's 20 years old hes got more time then he know what 2 do wit...Keep Walker 4 a few more years then when hes done well have an all out awesome PF in his place named BIG AL JEFFERSON...


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## agoo

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

We need to resign Walker. I don't really see why that is open for discussion. Except that people can't remember beyond the last four games.

We draft Joey Graham, Taylor Coppenrath, and either Salim Stoudamire or Nate Robinson. Let Payton walk. Then we have this:

C--Raef - Blount - Perkins
PF-Walker - Jefferson - Coppenrath
SF-Pierce - Graham - Reed
SG-Allen - Davis
PG-Banks - West - Robinson/Stoudamire

We'd probably see Reed and Coppenrath on the IR.


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## KingHandles

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

Do we have a chance 2 get Salim? If we do ill be tha happiest man in tha world hes GREAT my 2nd fav college player next 2 Mustafa Shakur...i like ur projected lineup next year...but I am sick an tyred of Mark Blount i like him but I dont think hes gunna be worth anything next year get sumn 4 him b4 he proves me right....


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



agoo101284 said:


> We need to resign Walker. I don't really see why that is open for discussion. Except that people can't remember beyond the last four games.


finally someone who can look past the last 4 games...thank god for u agoo i couldnt agree more


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## Richie Rich

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> finally someone who can look past the last 4 games...thank god for u agoo i couldnt agree more



:yes:


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## aquaitious

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

1st, this should be combined with the Offseason/Draft Discussion thread.

2nd, let's start ripping apart these posts.


Do not resign Walker? Yes and No. Antoine is THE reason why we went on that 11 out of 12 run. If not for him, there's no way in hell we'd even be close to Philly.

Don't resign him if he's going to take too many shots. There weren't many bad shots I've seen out of him since he came back. He's taking high quality shots, they just aren't going in. Heck, the only two negatives I've seen in the past 4 games is that a) we aren't playing good defense and b) we are missing lay ups. The game vs Dallas we had 7 or 8 attempts on one trip down, Antoine missed like 3 shots, Reaf missed 3 and Pierce missed 1/2. Then on other occasions Payton missed like 2 lay ups. Tony's shot isn't going down, and Ricky can't seem to buy his 80% shot.

Now Walker is in no way perfect, but he's perfect for what this team is trying to do. How many times have you seen Walker initiate or be the first one running on the fast break? In fact, he is one of the top 3 guys for the fast break on this team. The fast break is essential for us, it just makes the game so much easier. Look at what Phoenix is doing, and what the Nets did the last 3 years.

If there's a real "To Do" for next year, you do one of the following:
Completely rebuild by trading Paul, Blount, Reaf and letting Walker leave.
Or you try to build around Walker and Pierce. Try to trade Blount or Reaf (almost impossible) and try to get something for the future or someone long and athletic.

Personally, I love this team now and would do everything I can to keep it. I'd even resign Payton and let him play 25 minutes per game, that's what even he wants. Reading the Herald every morning, you can hear Payton hinting that he's playing too much time and how much less he's played at the begining. Now that time is starting to pick up and he's facing the consequences.

Also what's this talk of Jefferson not being able to play center? Amare is doing that in the _West_. Al can do it too, but he can't do that in the starting position, yet. Sorry fellow fans, but this kid is not ready. He may be a 20 and 9/10 rebound guy in the future, but he's not nowhere near that yet. Right now if you give him the minutes, there's no way he can last, nor is there a chance that we'll win at all. Al can score on anyone, but he'll most likely be scored on by anyone too. Same with rebounds, if he can't out jump a guy (the guy is blocking him out), then what will he do? He'll probably get called for a foul. He's good, but he's far from ready.

How was McCarty a good 3 point shooter? What has he done to be even mentioned in the same breath as Steve Kerr? Walter sucks for this team. He can't rebound even when he's under the basket, can't block out, and keeps falling on the floor to get a offensive foul called.

Another thing is that there it is impossible to get a center as late as we will be picking, and one that's good. Centers aren't a dime a dozen, especially good ones.

I kind of hope that we get a long atheletic 3 (what I thought Reed can be, but I still love this kid, sign me up agoo) or a big athletic 4 (Kenyon Martin type).

Also we'll need to trade some picks for future picks. I don't know how we'll keep this roster. Actually I think we may be able to trade 2 2nd rounders for a future 1st considering that this will be the last high schoolers draft. Some teams may want to take a chance on a mid/late high schooler and actually trade a 1st rounder for him. After this years draft, the talent level will a lot less then it has been for the past decade.

That's it, I'm tired of writing.


----------



## toolatetoride

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



aquaitious said:


> Also what's this talk of Jefferson not being able to play center? Amare is doing that in the _West_. Al can do it too, but he can't do that in the starting position, yet. Sorry fellow fans, but this kid is not ready.


I dont see Jefferson ever playing center unless he completely turns around his style of play. He gets outrebounded all the time by centers, am i the only one seeing it?


----------



## aquaitious

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



toolatetoride said:


> I dont see Jefferson ever playing center unless he completely turns around his style of play. He gets outrebounded all the time by centers, am i the only one seeing it?



How about putting Walker at Center? His first position in the NBA. In fact, I'd love to see him there. 

Plus, I hope that Al is going to be with Toine over the summer (and Perkins) and he teaches them some boxing out. Although Perkins is not whom I am concerned with.


----------



## whiterhino

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



toolatetoride said:


> With respect to the Walker situation, I think we should release him. Jefferson is coming on too fast to keep Walker, unless they came up with some genius idea. We cant move Walker to SF, because even if we put Ricky at PG and PP at SG we still have two up and coming PG's so thatsa out of the question. One idea is to move Jefferson to Center, but I dont really see him getting the job done as a long term center at only 6'10".
> 
> So...release Walker, lock up all our contracts and two last thing.s..
> 
> In my opinion, we made a mistake releasing McCarty. Every team needs a consistent three point shooter. Im a strong believer in the veteran three point shooter a la McCarty, Steve Kerr, Eric Piatkowski. I dont see a consisten three point shooter like that on this squad. Our depth is great, Our starters are awesome, but the last thing that should be trying to jump on a Center in the draft. Draft a huge man, no 6'11" nonsense, 7'0, 7'1. We need a huge presence down low that can block shots like crazy and defend well. We dont need scoring. Although I like Blount, i dont see him being the starting center for much long....
> 
> That is all, random thoughts, hope you understand it all...


well toolatetoride I respectfully have to disagree with you on just about everything, sorry, just my opinions.
First I think re-signing Walker should not even be considered an option it is a MUST, he is the heart, soul, spirit and leader of this team, period.
Second, Jefferson is anything but coming on strong, he looks positively TERRIBLE the last few weeks and if he sits the rest of the season that is fine with me. He has a great future ahead of him but right now he has a LOT of work to do. He has no idea what the word defense means.
Third, I would not worry about our Center position. I know he's my favorite, but I can't understand how almost everyone else but Aqua is constantly and consistently overlooking Perkins even though every time he gets to play he proves again and again he CAN PLAY, he's a monster rebounder and a shot blocker, he is everything you describe that we need but already have. He doesn't need to be 7 feet because of his wing span. 

Also....I'd resign Gary Payton, he wants less minutes as Aqua already said and Marcus is now a good back-up....Delonte is not anywhere near ready and may not be a PG which was my initial reaction when we drafted him.


----------



## aquaitious

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



whiterhino said:


> well toolatetoride I respectfully have to disagree with you on just about everything, sorry, just my opinions.
> First I think re-signing Walker should not even be considered an option it is a MUST, he is the heart, soul, spirit and leader of this team, period.
> Second, Jefferson is anything but coming on strong, he looks positively TERRIBLE the last few weeks and if he sits the rest of the season that is fine with me. He has a great future ahead of him but right now he has a LOT of work to do. He has no idea what the word defense means.
> Third, I would not worry about our Center position. I know he's my favorite, but I can't understand how almost everyone else but Aqua is constantly and consistently overlooking Perkins even though every time he gets to play he proves again and again he CAN PLAY, he's a monster rebounder and a shot blocker, he is everything you describe that we need but already have. He doesn't need to be 7 feet because of his wing span.
> 
> Also....I'd resign Gary Payton, he wants less minutes as Aqua already said and Marcus is now a good back-up....Delonte is not anywhere near ready and may not be a PG which was my initial reaction when we drafted him.



Oh yeah, THE PERKINATOR. hehe. But yeah, Perk has got LOOONG hands. He can block fade aways from 7 footers (Curry). That is hard to do. His hands almost reach his knees. I love this kid and the effort he puts in every game, and every practice.


----------



## Premier

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

I don't see the point in giving Gary Payton a new contract unless he is only playing downwards of 20 minutes per game. Even 25 minutes is too much for him considering the recent resurgence of Marcus Banks. Gary Payton is a good leader, veteran, and would be an asset to this team, but twenty five minutes is just too much. We've spent 2 of our last 5 first round selections on point guards and now is the time to develop them. Delonte West hasn't had the proper minutes to show us if he can play or not. Banks has already proven himself as a "shut-down" defender and he's getting to be a pretty good passer. In conclusion, I think that having Payton start and take the majority of the point guard minutes, ultimatly hurts the team.


----------



## Bl_ckB_st_rd

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

I like the guy that thinks Ricky can play PG, funniest thing Ive seen all week. Anyways, letting Walker go would be even dumber than when they did it the first time. It's obvious he's exactly what Pierce needs and the whole teams feeds off of those two so why mess with a good thing? Once Jefferson and Perkins are ready to start (assuming they both get there) a starting five of Perkins, Jefferson, Walker, Pierce, and whoever they get at PG in a couple of years (Banks is far from the answer) doesn't sound that bad.


----------



## Premier

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



Bl_ckB_st_rd said:


> I like the guy that thinks Ricky can play PG, funniest thing Ive seen all week.


I'm curious why you think he isn't capable of playing point guard? His ballhandling skills are superior to most shooting guards in the league and he has shown that he can pass effectively (although his assist numbers don't show it). Keep in mind, that whenever we say Ricky Davis can play point guard, most of us mean that he can play point guard while he is on the floor with Antoine Walker, who has shown that he has point guard abilities.



> ..and whoever they get at PG in a couple of years (Banks is far from the answer) doesn't sound that bad.


I'm also curious to why you think Banks "is far from the answer". Are you talking about his passing abilities because Marcus has established that he can pass from the best of them (7 assists last night). Plus, Banks gives us a guy who can contain the Dwayne Wade's, or Allen Iverson's in the leageue. His explosiveness and speed also do not hurt.


----------



## agoo

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



Bl_ckB_st_rd said:


> I like the guy that thinks Ricky can play PG, funniest thing Ive seen all week. Anyways, letting Walker go would be even dumber than when they did it the first time. It's obvious he's exactly what Pierce needs and the whole teams feeds off of those two so why mess with a good thing? Once Jefferson and Perkins are ready to start (assuming they both get there) a starting five of Perkins, Jefferson, Walker, Pierce, and whoever they get at PG in a couple of years (Banks is far from the answer) doesn't sound that bad.


As the guy that thinks Ricky can play PG, I'd like to hear your reasoning why he can't. You probably haven't seen the Ricky Davis that we've been watching all year in Boston. He's been smart, unselfish, and dedicated to the team this year. Infact, when GP went down, Doc played Davis at point guard. He has all of the abilities to play the position and play it fairly well.


----------



## TONYALLEN42

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



agoo101284 said:


> We need to resign Walker. I don't really see why that is open for discussion. Except that people can't remember beyond the last four games.
> 
> We draft Joey Graham, Taylor Coppenrath, and either *Salim Stoudamire* or Nate Robinson. *Let Payton walk.* Then we have this:
> 
> C--Raef - Blount - Perkins
> PF-Walker - Jefferson - Coppenrath
> SF-Pierce - Graham - Reed
> SG-Allen - Davis
> PG-Banks - West - Robinson/Stoudamire
> 
> We'd probably see Reed and Coppenrath on the IR.


i couldnt agree with you more, i think the same way but, Hakim Warrick or Charlie Villanueva should be going between 18-20 overall. and they can both play SF.


----------



## Premier

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



TONYALLEN42 said:


> i couldnt agree with you more, i think the same way but, Hakim Warrick or Charlie Villanueva should be going between 18-20 overall. and they can both play SF.


Joey Graham is much more of a true SF than either of them, plus Graham is a better defender than Tony Allen (his former teammate). With Ricky Davis, Marcus Banks, Tony Allen, and Joey Graham our perimeter defense would be near unstoppable.


----------



## whiterhino

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

I have to say Ricky can do spurts at PG in a crunch but that is NOT his position, nor do we want him there because Ricky can not be Ricky if he has to worry about being the floor general. As for Gary getting in the way of our young PG's...if he's playing 25 min a game Marcus gets plenty of minutes...Delonte is not a PG in my opinion, I never thought he was and now I think he's shown that he's not.


----------



## KingHandles

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

I love Delonte I belive he will be a better PG then Banks in time... Banks is very good though. If West is not a PG what do you think We will do with him Allen already has P2 Backed up. West and Banks will be a nice duo of guards in the future He is just to caught up in trying to find his place. But how has he proved you to not be a point guard?


----------



## whiterhino

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

Delonte was a shooting guard in college at St. Joe's, he's a very good shooting guard, unfortunately he's shorter than most SG's in the NBA. I don't think he can handle pressure well, he loses the ball and he makes some poor decisions. I also think his defense is suspect. He is a shooter and a good one but I have yet to see anything that shows me he can run the point, he had a good couple games when he started but what everyone was raving about was his shooting skills, not his playmaking. I like Delonte, I just don't see him as PG.....I don't know what we will do though because Doc & others don't seem to like Marcus. I was VERY DOWN on Marcus earlier but I have finally seen a great improvement from him and I now think it would be a very bad choice to get rid of him as I think he is about to break through the "wall".


----------



## KingHandles

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

Good point, Even thought I think his defense is above average and makes good descisions {most of the time} I dont think he plays enough to make up for tiny errors he may make in games. I also used to not like marcus but definatly think he should be our guard for the future. I think the key is having just marcus and delonte next year so they know they are going to play and are confident and make big strides of improvment. Both promising players.


----------



## whiterhino

I still think we draft a PG....even if we re-sign Gary (which I think we SHOULD), I don't think Delonte will ever be a starting PG and even though Marcus is now playing really well he can't be the only one (Gary will only be here 2 more years even if we re-sign him). There is also the fact that even though Marcus is winning us over Doc & Danny have not been crazy about him so they could still get rid of him, but I hope not. The fact is...if we have a shaky position it's PG. Our big man position is way set in my opinion between Raef, Perk, Toine, Al, and Blount.


----------



## Rizzah

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

Salim Stoudamire cannot play the point, fellas. We need to hope that Felton or Paul or Williams fall to the pick that the Lakers gave us.


----------



## TONYALLEN42

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

we dont have the lakers pick its lotto protected


----------



## agoo

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

We don't need a starting PG. We have Marcus Banks. We need to bring in a backup.


----------



## vandyke

well that depends on whether Payton is going to play another year with this team on if we need another pg. IMO this team needs a SF more than anything else and there should be several decent ones there when we pick, you can always pick up a decent back up point guard in this league. Right now our SF consists of Pierce, and Reed which isn't very deep and TA and Ricky even though they do play some 3 are really not 3's.


----------



## whiterhino

Danny has always said he takes the best player available and does not pick by position so it may not matter what needs we have.


----------



## Rizzah

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



agoo101284 said:


> We don't need a starting PG. We have Marcus Banks. We need to bring in a backup.


Nonono, Marcus Banks is not a starting PG...that's why the C's traded for Gary Payton in the first place.



> we dont have the lakers pick its lotto protected


Dammit. Well, we can at least hope a Jarrett Jack falls to our pick (and after his performance against Louisville, he probably will).


----------



## Premier

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



Rizzah said:


> Nonono, Marcus Banks is not a starting PG...that's why the C's traded for Gary Payton in the first place.


Just out of curiosity (again, I love cliches), why do you think Banks cannot become a starting point guard in the present or future? What makes Gary Payton better? Do you think drafting three consecutive first-round point guards would solve our minimal point guard issue?


----------



## Rizzah

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



Premier said:


> Just out of curiosity (again, I love cliches), why do you think Banks cannot become a starting point guard in the present or future? What makes Gary Payton better? Do you think drafting three consecutive first-round point guards would solve our minimal point guard issue?


I've seen Banks play a lot, and he just doesn't seem to grasp the nuances of the position. 

What makes GP better? Well, his track record, mostly.

I don't see how we've drafted three straight point guards in round 1...neither Allen nor West are PGs (Remember Jameer Nelson and John Lucas?), just undersized 2's.


----------



## aquaitious

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



Rizzah said:


> I've seen Banks play a lot, and he just doesn't seem to grasp the nuances of the position.
> 
> What makes GP better? Well, his track record, mostly.
> 
> I don't see how we've drafted three straight point guards in round 1...neither Allen nor West are PGs (Remember Jameer Nelson and John Lucas?), just undersized 2's.



I love Banks, so I have to defend him.

I think he has everything you need. He's got great defense, lightening speed, a great passing ability (gets better and better every game), can take it to the hoop, has a nice shot and is a great athlete.

To answer the 3 PG's, 3 drafts question:
2003: Banks
2004: West (Even though he's a PG, I do agree about the 'underzised 2' part)
2005: Unknown Yet.

I'd rather resign Toine and Payton, than draft another PG.


----------



## Rizzah

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



aquaitious said:


> I love Banks, so I have to defend him.
> 
> I think he has everything you need. He's got great defense, lightening speed, a great passing ability (gets better and better every game), can take it to the hoop, has a nice shot and is a great athlete.
> 
> To answer the 3 PG's, 3 drafts question:
> 2003: Banks
> 2004: West (Even though he's a PG, I do agree about the 'underzised 2' part)
> 2005: Unknown Yet.
> 
> I'd rather resign Toine and Payton, than draft another PG.


I don't think he understands the position well enough to be a starter, much less a good one. I'd like to keep him as a backup, though.

I don't see how we can call West a PG yet, either...he wasn't one in college and he wasn't one in the pros until a month ago.

I also heard GP wants out, so we couldn't re-sign him if we tried. That's good though, because he hasn't been all that good since December. I'm also on the fence about re-signing Antoine. I love him to death, but he's too much of a rollercoaster ride for me.

We could theoretically hold off this year and grab Marcus Williams next year. I've heard good things about him.


----------



## aquaitious

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



Rizzah said:


> I don't think he understands the position well enough to be a starter, much less a good one. I'd like to keep him as a backup, though.
> 
> I don't see how we can call West a PG yet, either...he wasn't one in college and he wasn't one in the pros until a month ago.
> 
> I also heard GP wants out, so we couldn't re-sign him if we tried. That's good though, because he hasn't been all that good since December. I'm also on the fence about re-signing Antoine. I love him to death, but he's too much of a rollercoaster ride for me.
> 
> We could theoretically hold off this year and grab Marcus Williams next year. I've heard good things about him.



Ah well, it all comes down to what you expect him to to. If you want him to be a pass-first/pure PG, I do not think he's the guy you're looking for. But that's not bad considering that there's not 5 guys in the whole league who are like that.

West has handled the ball in College, so it's nothing new to him. (Or at least that's what I heard). And he was expected to be the PG for this team since we drafted him.

I don't know why GP would want out though. I mean he had a chance to sign with any team he wanted, but he chose us for some reason.

Personally, I'd like to see what Banks would be able to do, maybe even give Delonte a chance and take a gamble on a 2nd round PG.


----------



## Rizzah

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



aquaitious said:


> Ah well, it all comes down to what you expect him to to. If you want him to be a pass-first/pure PG, I do not think he's the guy you're looking for. But that's not bad considering that there's not 5 guys in the whole league who are like that.
> 
> West has handled the ball in College, so it's nothing new to him. (Or at least that's what I heard). And he was expected to be the PG for this team since we drafted him.
> 
> I don't know why GP would want out though. I mean he had a chance to sign with any team he wanted, but he chose us for some reason.
> 
> Personally, I'd like to see what Banks would be able to do, maybe even give Delonte a chance and take a gamble on a 2nd round PG.


I don't like this idea, though...Banks doesn't strike me as being the kind of PG a legitimate contender would have.


----------



## aquaitious

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



Rizzah said:


> I don't like this idea, though...Banks doesn't strike me as being the kind of PG a legitimate contender would have.


Maybe not, but I believe that Banks is being held on a leech. Doc won't let him do his thing, but is trying to convert him into a traditional PG. While it's not that bad, you have to let Banks do what he does best. Some great PG's now are the ones that score. Marbury, Davis, Francis, Bibby, and some other's as well.


----------



## Rizzah

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



aquaitious said:


> Maybe not, but I believe that Banks is being held on a leech. Doc won't let him do his thing, but is trying to convert him into a traditional PG. While it's not that bad, you have to let Banks do what he does best. Some great PG's now are the ones that score. Marbury, Davis, Francis, Bibby, and some other's as well.


Great point guards make their teammates better, and I don't see that out of Marbury or Francis (or Banks, for that matter). Bibby certainly does do that, and I haven't seen Baron enough to judge.


----------



## aquaitious

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



Rizzah said:


> Great point guards make their teammates better, and I don't see that out of Marbury or Francis (or Banks, for that matter). Bibby certainly does do that, and I haven't seen Baron enough to judge.


But there's only 2/3 point guards that do make their team better...


----------



## Rizzah

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



aquaitious said:


> But there's only 2/3 point guards that do make their team better...


Nash
Kidd
Bibby
Hinrich
Wade

There are at least five.


----------



## aquaitious

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



Rizzah said:


> Nash
> Kidd
> Bibby
> Hinrich
> Wade
> 
> There are at least five.



(Although I disagree with Bibby, I'll give it to ya). This basically means out of 60 point guards (starting plus 1 back up) only about 10% of them that fit that description. 

Those kind of Point guards to come across too often.


----------



## Rizzah

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



aquaitious said:


> (Although I disagree with Bibby, I'll give it to ya). This basically means out of 60 point guards (starting plus 1 back up) only about 10% of them that fit that description.
> 
> Those kind of Point guards to come across too often.


And if you don't have a point guard like that, you have the best player in the game (ex: Lakers with Shaq, Bulls with MJ, Spurs with Duncan, Rockets with Hakeem), with last year's Pistons being the exception, and we clearly don't have that.


----------



## aquaitious

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



Rizzah said:


> And if you don't have a point guard like that, you have the best player in the game (ex: Lakers with Shaq, Bulls with MJ, Spurs with Duncan, Rockets with Hakeem), with last year's Pistons being the exception, and we clearly don't have that.


I agree, we do not have that (Piston team nor the great players), but when was the last time a PG was responsible for a title?

The only PG that was recently responsible for getting a team to the finals is Jason Kidd.


----------



## Premier

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

ehnumro touched on this a while back. Now, the prototypical point guard is one that can do both scoring and passing effectively. The days of the "pure" point guard are over. In my opinion, only Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Andre Miller, Brevin Knight, and a couple others, are "pure" point guards. Banks has all the tools to be a good point guard. In my opinion, he just needs more experience to combat his current negative attritbutes.


----------



## Rizzah

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



aquaitious said:


> I agree, we do not have that (Piston team nor the great players), but when was the last time a PG was responsible for a title?
> 
> The only PG that was recently responsible for getting a team to the finals is Jason Kidd.


To answer your question, Isiah Thomas in 1990. However, Chauncey Billups was pivotal for the Pistons last year.

But if recent past has taught us anything, you need a deep team with suffocating defense (Pistons), a dominant big man (Spurs, Lakers, Rockets), or arguably the greatest player of all time (Bulls).

Obviously, the latter two are out, but the former is still a possibility, but we can't throw money at Antoine and GP and expect to have money for that depth. Danny Ainge will probably continue to draft well enough to make that a possibility.


----------



## aquaitious

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



Rizzah said:


> To answer your question, Isiah Thomas in 1990. However, Chauncey Billups was pivotal for the Pistons last year.
> 
> But if recent past has taught us anything, you need a deep team with suffocating defense (Pistons), a dominant big man (Spurs, Lakers, Rockets), or arguably the greatest player of all time (Bulls).
> 
> Obviously, the latter two are out, but the former is still a possibility, but we can't throw money at Antoine and GP and expect to have money for that depth. Danny Ainge will probably continue to draft well enough to make that a possibility.



Isiah Thomas, 15 years ago. A decade and a half. Wow. But the league has completely changed since then. 

Billups was great for the Pistons, but they also had (at least) 3 all-stars. A great bench and a great player in Prince. Also there were only 2 guys the Pistons drafted that helped them win the title.

And we are nowhere near the Pistons. The reason the Pistions won was not because of their offense, but because of their defense. We also have a offensive minded coach, which doesn't help matters very much. (BTW I believe the 2nd option is also possible with Al Jefferson) 

I do have one question though. You speak of dept, but would not like to resign Payton and Walker, wouldn't keeping them add to the dept?


----------



## agoo

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

Just to respond to one part of a post earlier, Marcus Banks may not be what comes to mind when you think of a championship point guard, but who'd have thought that Chauncey Billups was a championship point guard either?

I don't think you need to have 12 guys that you'd look at and say, "These guys are championship winners." You just need to have stars that you look at in that category, and then have the rest of your guys be players that will bust their asses and know their roles. I think Marcus Banks is one of the guys in the second category. Give him a shot and he will impress you. And I keep saying this and I hope its not true, but I think he won't get a shot here.


----------



## Rizzah

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

Yes, but the Billupses and Tony Parkers were at least able to step up and take over the game in small spurts. Banks has not shown me he can do that.

A lot of money will be invested in locking up Toine and GP, and I don't want to put so much money in on those two.

Also, I don't think Al Jefferson will quite be a "put the team on his shoulders" kind of big man that Duncan and Shaq and Hakeem were, or even a Barkley or Malone, but I do think he will be a good player someday.


----------



## Premier

*Re: Offseason to-do's*

I agree with you about Al Jefferson. I think he can become a Elton Brand-type player capable of putting up 20 points and 10 rebounds. His defense and passing need improvement for him to become an "elite" player. 

Rizzah, Antoine Walker has bird rights meaning he will be signed to a contract that will not count to the salary cap. The owners understand that by giving Antoine eight million per year, they will profit from ticket sales and overall fan intrests. This is why Antoine was brought back. I don't want to bring back Payton as he is declining rapidly. He's not a comfortable shooter anymore and his defense is average most of the time, although he has shown spurts of great defense (Pistons game early in the season when Payton strips the ball to secure the win). 

Banks has "taken over the game" at time in short spurts, but Doc Rivers doesn't allow him to control the ball enough so that he can continue.


----------



## Rizzah

*Re: Offseason to-do's*



Premier said:


> I agree with you about Al Jefferson. I think he can become a Elton Brand-type player capable of putting up 20 points and 10 rebounds. His defense and passing need improvement for him to become an "elite" player.
> 
> Rizzah, Antoine Walker has bird rights meaning he will be signed to a contract that will not count to the salary cap. The owners understand that by giving Antoine eight million per year, they will profit from ticket sales and overall fan intrests. This is why Antoine was brought back. I don't want to bring back Payton as he is declining rapidly. He's not a comfortable shooter anymore and his defense is average most of the time, although he has shown spurts of great defense (Pistons game early in the season when Payton strips the ball to secure the win).
> 
> Banks has "taken over the game" at time in short spurts, but Doc Rivers doesn't allow him to control the ball enough so that he can continue.


I guess the main problem with Banks is that I simply have not seen him play enough.


----------



## banner17

Now that the playoffs have pretty well been decided, what picks are the Celtics actually going to have in this years draft? How many First Rounders, Second Rounders etc? With all the player movement since last years draft and during the season this year, I have completely lost track. I know the Lakers pick is out because they are lottery bound, but what about our other picks?


----------



## Kneepad

banner17 said:


> Now that the playoffs have pretty well been decided, what picks are the Celtics actually going to have in this years draft? How many First Rounders, Second Rounders etc? With all the player movement since last years draft and during the season this year, I have completely lost track. I know the Lakers pick is out because they are lottery bound, but what about our other picks?


2005 NBA Draft Pending Transactions


----------



## vandyke

Now that the season is over it is time for draft discussion can we take the sticky of of this one? Just curious to see who people would want with that 18th pick, and what the hope was with the two second round picks. Me personally if Villanueva could fall to 18 man would I be happy, we need somebody tall, lanky, and athletic with long arms that can rebound, and could you see a future front line of Perkins, Jefferson, and Villanueva that would give us a bright future.


----------



## PilgrimPride

18 is looking like our first selection and two late second round picks. I want a big man that takes it to the rim. If not Hakim Wrrick or Rashad McCants to play a combination of 2 or 3 positon with PP filling the opposite postion with AL Jefferson at the 4 postion good bye and thank you for your support Walker. You need to take it to the rim period.

Colin Grant serving America at Camp Kinser, Okinawa


----------



## max powers

I have a question how valuable are our 2 second round picks it seems like there is alot of good second round talent out there. Would Charlotte be willing to trade their 13 for our 18 plus one or both seconds? I really think we need to go for May and I don't think he'll be around at 18. I'm a UNC so I've seen 98% of his college games and he is the real deal he can play significant minutes and be an effective scorer for us next year. With May at PF and Jefferson playing some 5 we would have a devasting one two punch down low (and May is a great interior passer). The big concern is his weight but if he works out with Perkins in the summer he could be in tremendous shape coming in. May is a future All-Star in my book. Many folks will say but Jefferson and May are too similar but I think each one could get 30 minutes a game (rotating at PF with Jefferson moving to the 5 at times). Our main problem from the playoffs IMHO is our offense is too perimeter oriented, answer - get rid of Walker, bench Blount play May and Jefferson and start feeding the post. In workouts Mays stock will rise we should try to move up and get him. Also avoid McCants he and Ricky Davis would be clashing before the season even started. Also avoid Jawad Williams in the second he played great in the final four but has played soft most of his career. As for Payton I really like him he's a great leader but only bring him back for at most two years with the understanding he will play significantly less minutes otherwise let him move on.


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## Premier

Welcome PilgrimPride!

I don't necessarily think that Sean May is our best option for the 18th (or 13th) selection in this years' NBA draft. May is best while his team is running a half-court set. He isn't athletic enough to play a fast-break offense, nor will he ever be. 

McCants isn't a good option either, in my opinion. He's a good shooter, but he's very streaky and he is below average at creating off the dribble. He is also undersized and doesn't make up for it by playing great defense like Tony Allen.

I still stand by what I've posted about Danny Granger, who _will_ be available at 18.


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## max powers

> May is best while his team is running a half-court set. He isn't athletic enough to play a fast-break offense, nor will he ever be.


This is the conventional wisdom but I think it is wrong. His athleticism is vastly improved over his freshman year and I believe he has room for much further improvement. Even so he was absolutely fantastic about running the court on the break (and a great finisher). UNC was primarily a fast breaking team for much of the year they became more half court oriented in the tournament. The key will be for him too get in even better shape which I believe he can and then watch out. As for Granger I haven't seen him play but he sounds great from the draftcity profile. I moaned and groaned when Ainge picked Delonte and Allen but they both quickly changed my mind this time who ever we draft will get the benefit of the doubt.

Again we agree on McCants avoid at all cost


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## FatMike58

I say trade P-Squared to Por. for travis outlaw (ainge is in love with him) and their first round pick. then take felton from NC with that then at 18 take Petro from france in second round go after Kellenna Azubuike and/or chuck hayes from kentucky


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## Premier

FatMike58 said:


> I say trade P-Squared to Por. for travis outlaw (ainge is in love with him) and their first round pick.


It doesn't work under the current CBA. I could revise your deal to make it cap friendly, though.

Nick Van Exel, Travis Outlaw, the #35 selection, and the #5 selection in this years' draft for Paul Pierce and both our second-rounders.


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## FatMike58

i wouldnt mind that too much.. i realized that after i posted...you have to excuse me, im fat


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## FatMike58

Actually I think Celts should draft Sun Ming Ming, 7'8 and not done growing, can shoot, needs a little conditioning.....GEM


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## Premier

FatMike58 said:


> Actually I think Celts should draft Sun Ming Ming, 7'8 and not done growing, can shoot, needs a little conditioning.....GEM


He'll be out of the NBA in five years. Never trust guys with messed up pituitary glands as their bodies aren't strong enough to endure 8+ seasons in the NBA.


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## FatMike58

Well if you can get five good years out of him through the second round thats pretty good...plus his name would frickin sweet on a celtic jersey


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## Premier

FatMike58 said:


> Well if you can get five good years out of him through the second round thats pretty good...plus his name would frickin sweet on a celtic jersey


Yes, but he will be more susceptible to injuries.

His jersey would look awesome, though.


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## Delontes Herpes

if someone is 7'8 and not projected to go #1, they're going to suck. if we get sun ming ming i'm going to shoot myself

and that portland trade is horrendous. outlaw, van exel, plus the #5 pick <<< pierce, unless chris paul somehow slips to #5. no way danny would do this.

i've been on the danny granger bandwagon since january...i would love to see the celts pick him up...right now nbadraft.net has him projected to go #11 though...if he could slip to 18 that would be great.

i think channing frye could be a decent big man if he adds some muscle

sean may is fat but i think he can play and i think he'll have a decent career in the league. i wouldn't mind having him in green, and i'm a dookie.

if those guys are gone...2 words: danny ewing. the kid can ball and i will be shocked if he's not a solid NBA player

and i'd love to see us grab julius hodge in the 2nd round.


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## Richie Rich

*Ot*

is it me or is it ironic that three 'new' posters all posted on this same page? im sorry that just doesnt happen everyday...


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## aquaitious

*Re: Ot*



Richie Rich said:


> is it me or is it ironic that three 'new' posters all posted on this same page? im sorry that just doesnt happen everyday...



Definitely just you.


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## FatMike58

channing frye is the most overrated player ever he sucks plus id take perkins over him anyday

forget that id take BLOUNT anyday


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## NEBallers34

Edit. This is completly inappropriate. Please refrain from using personal attacks directed at fellow posters. For a better understanding, I suggest you read the site guidelines.

-Premier


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## FatMike58

ahhh....premier its ok NEBaller is my friend it ok


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## Premier

FatMike58 said:


> ahhh....premier its ok NEBaller is my friend it ok


Yes I figured that out, but you guys should tone it down a notch. Using personal attacks only leads to more problems even if you are joking around.

Anyways, let's get back on track. How does anyone feel about Francisco Garcia. Good, local boy. Killer three-point shot. Reminds me of Reggie.


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## FatMike58

i hate Sisco he went to lousyville and i love kentucky pluss i hate reggie too ......get it....LOUSYville :biggrin:


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## Delontes Herpes

i like francisco...good shooter, good passer, i think he'll be a decent NBA player.

the one thing is, between davis, pierce, and allen, where does he get minutes?

also i hear the celtics may trade their first rounder for robert swift. i'm hoping that this does not happen.


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## Premier

Delontes Herpes said:


> also i hear the celtics may trade their first rounder for robert swift. i'm hoping that this does not happen.


Link? If this happens, those who said Ainge's public sentiments of Swift before last years' draft was just a diversion to get Al Jefferson will look foolish.


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## Delontes Herpes

FatMike58 said:


> channing frye is the most overrated player ever he sucks plus id take perkins over him anyday
> 
> forget that id take BLOUNT anyday


i could see channing frye busting, and i could see him developing into a solid center in the league. i think he'd be worth the risk at 18, considering that the C's have talented players at all positions other than center. one of his big knocks is that he is too skinny and that is a problem that is easily solved with a little hard work. i think it is a bit drastic to say you'd rather have blount...he is set for life as far as cash goes and at this point i just don't see him getting any better than he was at the end of the year when his minutes eventually decreased to nothing.

here's how i'd rank how much i'd want each guy who has a realistic shot of being available at 18
1. granger
2. frye
3. may
4. ewing
5. salim (point guard size without point guard skills but he's so wet i don't care)
6. francisco garcia
7. hakim warrick
8. villanueva
9. joey graham
.
.
.
2983423. wayne simien

as for the 2nd round, julius hodge is the only guy i really want but i also like omar thomas out of UTEP and i think we should use at least one pick on a high school guy or a foreigner who we won't expect to contribute for at least 2-3 years


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## Delontes Herpes

Premier said:


> Link? If this happens, those who said Ainge's public sentiments of Swift before last years' draft was just a diversion to get Al Jefferson will look foolish.


i don't have a link...it's something that my dad told me and he is usually fairly reliable...however at this point it is no more than a rumor, and rumors rarely amount to anything. it seems that trade rumors with swift to the celtics have surfaced repeatedly so i wouldn't be so quick to say that it was "just" a diversion but there is definitely a possibility that swift was a distant 2nd choice to jeff.

and i know that ainge has a better eye for talent that i do, but i just don't know how a goofy white redhead could ever be a successful NBA player. furthermore swift played 72 minutes of garbage time this year compiling 15 points and 5 rebounds. i know it's a small sample size, but there's just no excuse for only pulling 5 boards in 72 minutes of garbage time. that's reggie miller-esque...and swift is a center.


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## FatMike58

Delontes Herpes said:


> i could see channing frye busting, and i could see him developing into a solid center in the league. i think he'd be worth the risk at 18, considering that the C's have talented players at all positions other than center. one of his big knocks is that he is too skinny and that is a problem that is easily solved with a little hard work. i think it is a bit drastic to say you'd rather have blount...he is set for life as far as cash goes and at this point i just don't see him getting any better than he was at the end of the year when his minutes eventually decreased to nothing.
> 
> here's how i'd rank how much i'd want each guy who has a realistic shot of being available at 18
> 1. granger
> 2. frye
> 3. may
> 4. ewing
> 5. salim (point guard size without point guard skills but he's so wet i don't care)
> 6. francisco garcia
> 7. hakim warrick
> 8. villanueva
> 9. joey graham
> .
> .
> .
> 2983423. wayne simien
> 
> as for the 2nd round, julius hodge is the only guy i really want but i also like omar thomas out of UTEP and i think we should use at least one pick on a high school guy or a foreigner who we won't expect to contribute for at least 2-3 years


Id dather have simien than frye even with his past injuries...i agree hodge and thomas would also be great pickups


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## Delontes Herpes

my beef with simien is that he doesn't have much of a low post game...most of his buckets come off of short J's.

as i've said i'd definitely take frye over him but only time will tell who turns out to be the better pro.

i don't see why hodge is projected to go so late...i'm not saying he should go first round but he has such a good all around game...sure he needs to add some muscle but with the recent success of combo guards such as dwyane wade and gilbert arenas (not to say that he's gonna be nearly as good as either of those 2) you'd think he would be getting a little more attention.

as for omar thomas, he's just a straight up baller. if UTEP had knocked off a team or two in the tourney (they lost by 3 to maryland in 04, they lost by 3 or 4 to utah this year i think) he would probably be getting more attention as well.


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## max powers

> but i just don't know how a goofy white redhead could ever be a successful NBA player


there was this goofy guy


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## agoo

*Re: 2005 Boston Celtics Draft/Offseason Thread*

Any way we can get Brendan Haywood over from Washington? I've always liked him.


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## aquaitious

*Re: 2005 Boston Celtics Draft/Offseason Thread*



agoo101284 said:


> Any way we can get Brendan Haywood over from Washington? I've always liked him.


Speaking of the Wizards, do you guys remember the rumors of Etan Thomas coming to the C's last season for the MLE?


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## agoo

*Re: 2005 Boston Celtics Draft/Offseason Thread*



aquaitious said:


> Speaking of the Wizards, do you guys remember the rumors of Etan Thomas coming to the C's last season for the MLE?


Hey, I like him too.


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## aquaitious

*Re: 2005 Boston Celtics Draft/Offseason Thread*



agoo101284 said:


> Hey, I like him too.


http://www.nba.com/playerfile/etan_thomas/index.html

47 games. *47*.


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## FatMike58

even with 47 games he is still a pretty solid player...i like him


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## agoo

*Re: 2005 Boston Celtics Draft/Offseason Thread*



aquaitious said:


> http://www.nba.com/playerfile/etan_thomas/index.html
> 
> 47 games. *47*.


Would you prefer 82 from Mark Blount?

And, Etan Thomas is a poet.


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## FatMike58

mark blount = doody head


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## aquaitious

Mark Blount helped us win 44/5 (whatever the hell it was) games.

Etan Thomas was absent for almost half the season. That's not a lot of help.


We don't need another guy to sit on the bench. Raef can be there any minute, and we can always resign Vinny.


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## FatMike58

ha....vinny


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## Delontes Herpes

it's absurd to say that blount is responsible for 1/5 of our wins

a) he played less than 1/9 of our total minutes
b) he sucked for the majority of those minutes

i would love to see him revert back to his 03-04 post all star game form but at that point i just don't think he cares enough for that to happen. throughout the year he continually saw fewer and fewer minutes until he was benched for the final few games of the indy series.

i would try to trade him if we can get any positive value as opposed to just dumping his contract.

by the way, it sounds like GP is gone as he was a "handful" for doc. i don't really want him back anyway, i'd like to see us sign a mike james type who can start if need be but i really want to see how delonte would handle the starting point guard job over a full season. i think he is our longterm solution at the position.


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## PilgrimPride

How about a double dose of MB times two Blount and Banks to LA for this years 1st round pick and Walton to Boston. I would still like a big man that bangs and someone who will take it to the rim. When you drive you score or put pressure on the defense to stop you and drop it of to Big Al to rack it up. Hakim and Johan :clap:


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## whiterhino

PilgrimPride said:


> How about a double dose of MB times two Blount and Banks to LA for this years 1st round pick and Walton to Boston. I would still like a big man that bangs and someone who will take it to the rim. When you drive you score or put pressure on the defense to stop you and drop it of to Big Al to rack it up. Hakim and Johan :clap:


Banks is NOT going anywhere, he is our starting PG from here on out...and this is from someone who thought he was terrible in the past, he's proven he is going to be very good. 

I have heard that Danny is yes in fact still trying to pry Robert Swift from Seattle, yet again. I don't think he's going to give up on this one. He's got to know something about this kid. I do think he'll be a decent player but I love Perk and don't think he'll be better than Perk.


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## Premier

PilgrimPride said:


> How about a double dose of MB times two Blount and Banks to LA for this years 1st round pick and Walton to Boston. I would still like a big man that bangs and someone who will take it to the rim. When you drive you score or put pressure on the defense to stop you and drop it of to Big Al to rack it up. Hakim and Johan :clap:


That wouldn't work. Under NBA rules, a team cannot (unless the are penalized; see the Timberwolves and Joe Smith) go two drafts without a first-round selection. We have Los Angeles' first round pick next year, but it might go to Atlanta.


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## Delontes Herpes

i don't think danny will be that hesitant to trade banks. he made significant improvements this year but i'm still not sure that he'll ever be an above average starting PG in the league. he has shown that he is willing to trade anyone and everyone and after all, he already did trade banks once.


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## Delontes Herpes

my plan to save the celtics:

first ship pierce and toine (sign and trade) to the clips for maggette and brand.

then send blount, jefferson, and banks to chi-town for deng and duhon...this dumps blount's contract and we get some slightly more polished young players in the process.

i heard that the bulls bought out jay williams contract and that he has been rehabbing nicely. give him a contract offer, see how things work out.

send ricky davis, kendrick perkins, and justin reed to utah for carlos boozer. the jazz are looking to get rid of him because he plays the same position as kirilenko and they coudl definitely use a scoring 2/3

send delonte, raef, and pick #50 to orlando for grant hill. one injury prone albatross for another, plus delonte and jameer get reunited.

draft danny ewing with #18 and shavlik randolph with #53

sign christian laettner with our low level exception

our lineup would look something like this:

PG duhon
SG maggette
SF hill
PF boozer
C brand

bench

deng
ewing
jay will
laettner
shav

who would beat us?


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## aquaitious

Delontes Herpes said:


> it's absurd to say that blount is responsible for 1/5 of our wins
> 
> a) he played less than 1/9 of our total minutes
> b) he sucked for the majority of those minutes
> 
> i would love to see him revert back to his 03-04 post all star game form but at that point i just don't think he cares enough for that to happen. throughout the year he continually saw fewer and fewer minutes until he was benched for the final few games of the indy series.
> 
> i would try to trade him if we can get any positive value as opposed to just dumping his contract.
> 
> by the way, it sounds like GP is gone as he was a "handful" for doc. i don't really want him back anyway, i'd like to see us sign a mike james type who can start if need be but i really want to see how delonte would handle the starting point guard job over a full season. i think he is our longterm solution at the position.


No matter how much you hate him, I do too, but he did help us win games. 

His jumpshot was deadly during the season....and uh...well that's about it. (Although he did run the floor very well for a guy his size). You cannot give him absolutely no credit, because he deserves at least a little of it.


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## aquaitious

Delontes Herpes said:


> my plan to save the celtics:
> 
> first ship pierce and toine (sign and trade) to the clips for maggette and brand.
> 
> then send blount, jefferson, and banks to chi-town for deng and duhon...this dumps blount's contract and we get some slightly more polished young players in the process.
> 
> i heard that the bulls bought out jay williams contract and that he has been rehabbing nicely. give him a contract offer, see how things work out.
> 
> send ricky davis, kendrick perkins, and justin reed to utah for carlos boozer. the jazz are looking to get rid of him because he plays the same position as kirilenko and they coudl definitely use a scoring 2/3
> 
> send delonte, raef, and pick #50 to orlando for grant hill. one injury prone albatross for another, plus delonte and jameer get reunited.
> 
> draft danny ewing with #18 and shavlik randolph with #53
> 
> sign christian laettner with our low level exception
> 
> our lineup would look something like this:
> 
> PG duhon
> SG maggette
> SF hill
> PF boozer
> C brand
> 
> bench
> 
> deng
> ewing
> jay will
> laettner
> shav
> 
> who would beat us?


That's all it takes? If I could make up a few drafts, I'd try to get LeBron, Shaq, Wade, Kidd, Duncan and Garnett...but that's just me.


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## Premier

:rofl:

That would only work in NBA Live.


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## max powers

> PG duhon
> SG maggette
> SF hill
> PF boozer
> C brand
> 
> bench
> 
> deng
> ewing
> jay will
> laettner
> shav


who would beat us? probably the wizards when they work some trades to get

PG Felton
SG Carter
SF Stackhouse
PF Jamison
C Rasheed

Bench
Marvin Williams
May
Haywood
McCants
Jawad Williams


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## Premier

max powers said:


> who would beat us? probably the wizards when they work some trades to get
> 
> PG Felton
> SG Carter
> SF Stackhouse
> PF Jamison
> C Rasheed
> 
> Bench
> Marvin Williams
> May
> Haywood
> McCants
> Jawad Williams


So...how about them Dukies?


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## FatMike58

Duke sucks


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## Delontes Herpes

hate on duke now...but next year is our year.

i doubt that we'll lose more than 1 or 2 regular season games and we are the heavy favorite to win it all.


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## FatMike58

next year is kentucky's year if Morris comes back, even without azubuike :curse: or chuck hayes


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## Delontes Herpes

duke is returning 2 1st team ACC all americans and they're bringing in the top recruiting class.

furthermore, the new recruits fill our biggest voids...paulus gives us a true PG and mcroberts gives us a 2nd big man to complement shelden.

our starting lineup should be paulus-dockery-JJ-mcroberts-shelden with nelson, melchionni, and mcclure off the bench. that team is dominant.

side note: duke has 6-1 odds to win it all. kentucky is 15-1


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## whiterhino

Delontes Herpes said:


> my plan to save the celtics:
> 
> first ship pierce and toine (sign and trade) to the clips for maggette and brand.
> 
> then send blount, jefferson, and banks to chi-town for deng and duhon...this dumps blount's contract and we get some slightly more polished young players in the process.
> 
> i heard that the bulls bought out jay williams contract and that he has been rehabbing nicely. give him a contract offer, see how things work out.
> 
> send ricky davis, kendrick perkins, and justin reed to utah for carlos boozer. the jazz are looking to get rid of him because he plays the same position as kirilenko and they coudl definitely use a scoring 2/3
> 
> send delonte, raef, and pick #50 to orlando for grant hill. one injury prone albatross for another, plus delonte and jameer get reunited.
> 
> draft danny ewing with #18 and shavlik randolph with #53
> 
> sign christian laettner with our low level exception
> 
> our lineup would look something like this:
> 
> PG duhon
> SG maggette
> SF hill
> PF boozer
> C brand
> 
> bench
> 
> deng
> ewing
> jay will
> laettner
> shav
> 
> who would beat us?



:raised_ey  :naughty: :sour: :rofl: :krazy:


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## Delontes Herpes

would anyone trade raef and blount for c-webb?


----------



## Premier

Delontes Herpes said:


> would anyone trade raef and blount for c-webb?


Sure, after July 15, although the 76ers wouldn't do it.


----------



## aquaitious

I'd do it.

I would trade for a guy that's 25 times worse than Blount is since his contract is 2 years less than Mark's, and 1 year less than Raef's.


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## Delontes Herpes

i wouldn't do the c-web deal. he redefines the term cancer. pluswise, if one team was willing to trade him for kenny thomas, brian skinner, and corliss williamson and another team would be willing to trade him for ralph and blount...you really gotta question his value.

i revised my preferences for the draft.

my first choice is still granger, second choice is ike diogu. it sounds like diogu, at the very least will be a malik rose/udonis haslem type and there's always room for one of those on a roster. and of course, his ceiling is much higher than that.

after that, i think we should either trade, pick up cisco garcia, or take a risk on a big man. although i'm not a fan of drafting foreigners, i would consider petro. he's a big unknown at this point and we could hit it big (and could miss big). i'd rather gamble with him than i would with swift though.

after that may, frye, and morris would all be options, none of them thrilling. i think may would be the most solid pick of the 3


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## FatMike58

blount=doody


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## GreenFlash17

I hope the Celtics take the best player available in the draft. But we might want to consider trading are picks because we have 5 young players to work with already.


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## Premier

I agree, somewhat.

If we need to throw in #18 in a deal that rids us of LaFrentz or Blount (for expiring contracts) then yes, I would trade our first-round selection. If Danny Granger is on the board during our pick then no, I wouldn't trade it. We'll see on draft night. Danny isn't one to shy away from deals.


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## celtsb34

You cant get anything with Raef and Blount


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## celticsfuture34

Man they had a perfect draft. 10/10 I rate it. Gerald Green was a steal. So was my man Ryan Gomes from PC. We have a great team. Best future too. Jefferson and Green :banana: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :banana: :banana: :banana: :cheers: :clap: :clap: :clap:


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