# Is the Sheed deal going down?



## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

What is the latest???


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

not now it aint


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## Siouxperior (Jan 15, 2003)

NY just dosn't have the pieces to get a deal done. Not going to happen.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Oh yes, I forgot. Because so many other teams are opening the vault for Wallace.


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## wilon_1 (Jul 25, 2002)

NYDAILYNEWS.com reported that the Blazers gm still wants to trade Rasheed..Wnts Kurt Thomas and Doleac...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

How in the world can you trade Kurt Thomas and Michel Doleac for rasheed wallace..The salaries dont match up at all


KVH and KT for Rasheed Wallace would match up...


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Right, and they don't want KVH, they want cap space. They wanted McDyess and Thomas, cause both have expiring contracts. Didn't happen. Wont happen now.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Would you even want Sheed for KVH and Thomas???

Frankly,no pun intended,i would rather trade Williams and Harrington for Miles...We need some athleticism and someone who can run with Stephon on the break

And yes I like Williams,but I am not in love


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I'm not sure, the times I've seen Miles were not great performances by him, so my jury is out. Sheed can run with Marbury but while I think the team could have handled Sheed's ego alone I don't know it can handle his with Marbury's. It's not like we've got Riley or Jackson at the Helm.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Wallace runs well for a power forward. Not well for a small forward. Miles is quite an athletic creature, but not much else. Really, I don't hold him in any higher esteem than I do Shandon Anderson. Miles is just a couple inches taller and has a worse jumpshot (and Anderson's is already quite bad).


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Btw, I don't see Harrington going anywhere. He's proven his worth as a capable backup, and the only other PF on the roster after KT is Michael Sweetney. I'd rather take a flier on Leon Smith instead of thinning out the bench for no reason. 

The Knicks already have Penny and Shandon Anderson. If they get Miles, where does Anderson go? He's not exactly tradeable. That puts him on the bench until the also untradable Penny goes down with injury. 

UNLESS, they start Miles and put KVH at PF. But that also means KT is coming off the bench at PF/C as the 6th man, which is something he doesn't really like (even if he is effective in the role)

And if they trade Frank, who is the 3rd PG? Do they bring back Ward? Otherwise it's going to be 10 day contract guys like Smush Parker and Tierre Brown. I can do without them.

Current Knick Roster
C - Mutombo/Doleac/Trybanski
PF - Thomas/Harrington/Sweetney
SF - VanHorn/Anderson
SG - Houston/Hardaway
PG - Marbury/Norris/Williams

With Miles, KT starting
C - Mutombo/Doleac/Trybanski
PF - Thomas/Sweetney
SF - VanHorn/Miles/Anderson
SG - Houston/Hardaway
PG - Marbury/Norris

With Miles, KT off bench
C - Mutombo/Doleac/Trybanski
PF - VanHorn/Thomas/Sweetney
SF - Miles/Anderson
SG - Houston/Hardaway
PG - Marbury/Norris

It also leaves the Knicks with a roster of 12. Since we don't have any draft picks, and since we used our mid-level this year (teams get one every 2 years), it means that the IR would have to be filled out with minimum wage scrubs for the next couple years. Not good since Penny is always injury prone and Houston is having knee trouble.

But maybe I'm just underestimating Miles. Maybe he can still develop. Players don't stop developing until 26-27 usually. Miles is still only 22, and athletic types thrive with good PGs. Yeah, that's right. I don't consider Lebron much of an actual PG right now. Maybe Thomas thinks he can turn Miles into the next Shawn Marion.

Then again, maybe I should look at the trade differently. If the Knicks can re-sign Ward, then the trade is really Harrington and Williams for Miles and Ward. I can definitely stomach that one, and it likely guarantees that Sweetney will end up being a contributor.


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## GONYK (Aug 14, 2002)

Miles is a bum who cant do anything but dunk, and has shown no effort to improve. Even with athletic PG's ...cough*Lebron James*cough....he still cant even average double figures. I know somebody is going to bring up that he hasn't been playing that much...but if somebody so athletic with so much potential is getting DNP's on the Cavs...I think we should stay as far away as we can, especially if it means losing a Frank Williams


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## Northpole (Aug 31, 2003)

No Miles please. He can't even get minutes now with Ricky Davis gone.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

has anyone seen leon smith play???


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

He is an unpolished, athletic 6'10 forward when he is not consuming aspirin and fighting the Indians.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Sounds like Darius Miles is NOT the answer........

Unfortunetly,i do think Isiah is gonna move Williams and thats the reason he traded for Moochie..


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Even with athletic PG's ...cough*Lebron James*cough....he still cant even average double figures


Lebron is as good a PG as Ricky Davis or Steve Francis.

When you're taking 20+ shots per game, and turning the ball over at a league leading rate, you're not a good PG. Maybe a good player, but not a good PG.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Lebron is as good a PG as Ricky Davis or Steve Francis.
> ...


Actually he's third in the league in turnovers per game. Behind Iverson and Paul Pierce. Pretty good company. PGs like Francis, Baron Davis, Kidd and Wade aren't far behind him. PGs will always have lots of turnovers because they handle the ball so much. Lebron may have more than the others because he's young and a rookie, or his handle isn't great (I'm not sure why you think it is), true, but it might also be because he's on the wosrt team of those mentioned, putting the ball in his hands all the more.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Actually he's third in the league in turnovers per game.


I'm aware. However those 3.8 turnovers would have led the league last year.

And unlike Lebron, Pierce and Iverson are SGs. Which means Lebron turns the ball over more than any other PG in the league.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm aware. However those 3.8 turnovers would have led the league last year.


Lebron wasn't in the league last year.



> And unlike Lebron, Pierce and Iverson are SGs. Which means Lebron turns the ball over more than any other PG in the league.


What's your point? What do you expect from a guy who's career can still be counted in minutes? And moving him to SG proably wont reduce his turnovers, just like it didn't for AI. He gets a lot of turnovers because of his importance to his team.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> Lebron is as good a PG as Ricky Davis or Steve Francis.
> 
> When you're taking 20+ shots per game, and turning the ball over at a league leading rate, you're not a good PG.


One more thing on his turnovers. He's currently at 3.83 as an 18 year old rookie. As twenty year old rookies, Magic averaged 3.96 turnovers per game and Isiah averaged 4.15. They're only as good as Ricky Davis too???

Lebron is big enough and versatile enough he can be good at any position short of C and PF. And where he plays may depend on who his teammates are. But at 18 with less than 40 games under his belt, let's not let his turnovers determine whether he's a good PG or not.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> One more thing on his turnovers. He's currently at 3.83 as an 18 year old rookie.


We're not discussing his future aspects. *We're talking about Darius Miles.*

The point made was that Miles supposedly has a good PG feeding him the basketball. My point is that right now, Lebron is not a good PG. In 5 years he might be a good PG, but that doesn't do Miles any good right now.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Do you think we should trade for Miles??

Initially i said yes,then i succumbed to peer pressure,but after watching last nights game its clear we need some more tweaking and unfotunetly we have very few bargaining chips and frankie is one of them


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Have you stopped to ask yourself WHY the Cavs would want Frank Williams?

It's just NY propaganda.

Why would the Cavs want Frank Williams when they already have Lebron James, Dajuan Wagner, Kevin Ollie, and JR Bremer?

Frank is just a crappier version of Dajuan Wagner.

Would they move Lebron to SF if they traded Miles and got Frank? I don't know. Go ask the Cleveland board.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> The point made was that Miles supposedly has a good PG feeding him the basketball. My point is that right now, Lebron is not a good PG.


I wish I got to see more of Lebron to know just how good a PG guard he is. But putting up a lot of shots or turning the ball over isn't the prime determinant of that. If it were Eisley would be better than Lebron. The key to PG play is his ability to orchestrate the floor. If Lebron were only as good as Ricky Davis how come Cleveland is better with him gone?


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## Priest (Jun 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Have you stopped to ask yourself WHY the Cavs would want Frank Williams?
> 
> It's just NY propaganda.
> ...


because none of them are real point guards


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> because none of them are real point guards


And Frank Williams is? Like I said, he's the crap version of Dajuan Wagner.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

How can you compare frank Williams with Dujan Wagner???One is a 6'2" 2 guard...Frank is a pure point guard..apples and oranges


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## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

Apparently, it might be done already


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## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

Can someone tell me why we would want Darius Miles in the first place? He's not Rasheed, or Shareef or even Van Horn. What has he shown over the last few years to make us want to covet him? I haven't seen any improvement in his game over the last couple of years. No outside jump shot, no post game, why are we even having a discussion on him? What can he bring to the table for today's NY Knicks?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Frank is a pure point guard


LMAO a pure PG...

What does Frank do that Wagner doesn't? All Frank can do is drive and dish. Sounds a lot like Wagner if you ask me.



> What can he bring to the table for today's NY Knicks?


Easy. He can run, and isn't slow for a SF. The other Power Forwards you listed can't. He also doesn't have a hefty price tag. All it would take is 2 bench players to get Miles. Miles is also young enough to still develop a little, he's only 22, players usually stop developing at 26. Lord knows this team could use some youth too. Miles is as young as rookie Michael Sweetney.


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## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

Sure Miles can run, but we play in the East, where half court defense is paramount...meaning again in a half court offensive set, what does he have? Nothing. Watching Shawn Marion tonite on ESPN. Very limited offensive game, jumpshot and shot selection way off. His game reminds of Miles, except that he is way better than Miles. Did anybody see Shawn Marion get exposed playing against the Europeans? They left him open trip after trip down the court, where he can't shoot and doesn't have the dribble skills to create his own shot unless it's an open trip to a dunk. Where is Darius Miles game? Definitely not on a level of Shawn Marion, but I think the analogy carries over to him. He can't hit an open jumper either or create his own shot. In the NBA, at least with the way the Knicks been playing defense and getting beat on the board, you're not getting many fast break opportunities, and if you're relying on those opportunities for Miles to get his points, then you're out of your rabbit mind. The 2 best players for the Knicks to go is either Rasheed Wallace or Shareef Rahim Abdul. You still haven't explained your infatuation with Darius Miles. If he's not getting quality minutes with Cleveland, what makes you think he's going to get minutes with us? What is he going to bring to the table to improve our team? Can he post up? Does he have a reliable mid range jumper? We already have a perimeter shooting team. We need a post player, a real post up type of guy, where come down and throw the ball into the paint.


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## Joluis (Apr 25, 2003)

If The Blazers want cap space in return for Rasheed like someone posted earlier, why don't they let him leave in the offseason he's a free agent.

But they want something in return for him...This may be a stretch but Van Horn, KT & Cash is probably the best we can do. Let me just say that me and a co-worker was discusing Marbury on the Knicks before any word of the trade, & we both agreed that we didn't have the personell to get him, So as far Sheed is concerned its all depending what the blazers are going to do, what do they need? They have a Man to build around in Randolph.


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## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

I'm almost sure the Knicks offer was Williams and Van Horn. Portland doesn't want Van Horn, they want K. Thomas. Isiah is on record as saying that he likes KT, and doesn't see parting with him in the future. To be honest with ya'll...I like a front line of Van Horn, Mutumbo, and Rasheed as opposed to one with Rasheed, Kurt and Mutumbo...


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## solo (Nov 29, 2002)

> Sure Miles can run, but we play in the East, where half court defense is paramount...meaning again in a half court offensive set, what does he have? Nothing. Watching Shawn Marion tonite on ESPN. Very limited offensive game, jumpshot and shot selection way off. His game reminds of Miles, except that he is way better than Miles. Did anybody see Shawn Marion get exposed playing against the Europeans? They left him open trip after trip down the court, where he can't shoot and doesn't have the dribble skills to create his own shot unless it's an open trip to a dunk. Where is Darius Miles game? Definitely not on a level of Shawn Marion, but I think the analogy carries over to him. He can't hit an open jumper either or create his own shot. In the NBA, at least with the way the Knicks been playing defense and getting beat on the board, you're not getting many fast break opportunities, and if you're relying on those opportunities for Miles to get his points, then you're out of your rabbit mind. The 2 best players for the Knicks to go is either Rasheed Wallace or Shareef Rahim Abdul. You still haven't explained your infatuation with Darius Miles. If he's not getting quality minutes with Cleveland, what makes you think he's going to get minutes with us? What is he going to bring to the table to improve our team? Can he post up? Does he have a reliable mid range jumper? We already have a perimeter shooting team. We need a post player, a real post up type of guy, where come down and throw the ball into the paint.


Could the poor play of Marion be beacuse of the absense of Stephon? In that case then couldn't it be argued that Stephon make Darius better as well. Sure he isn't a half court player but he is athletic and that's the direction this team needs to head to be succesfull.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Good point solo.....2 years ago,Miles was good enough to be traded for Andre Miller,arguably one of the best point guards..And Miles talent was based on playing in the NBA and showing flashes of brilliance...

We have no choice but to make more changes...If its not Rasheed,the Miles and his potential may be our only choice


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## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

And also, New York trainers can work on Miles, make him a better player...


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> 2 years ago,Miles was good enough to be traded for Andre Miller,arguably one of the best point guards..And Miles talent was based on playing in the NBA and showing flashes of brilliance...


He was good enough?

Andre Miller was coming off a season where he led the league in assists and made the all-star team.

Andre was traded because he said he was going to leave as a free agent. The Clippers didn't need Miles because he played the same position as Lamar Odom and had failed to develop very much.

Miles was expected to develop in Cleveland since he was going to be the star. Or something.

If Miles can't average 10 ppg on a bad team, what do people think he's going to do on a good team? Transform into an all-star?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

is it my imagination or did you just write

"Easy. He can run, and isn't slow for a SF. The other Power Forwards you listed can't. He also doesn't have a hefty price tag. All it would take is 2 bench players to get Miles. Miles is also young enough to still develop a little, he's only 22, players usually stop developing at 26. Lord knows this team could use some youth too. "

Now you write

"If Miles can't average 10 ppg on a bad team, what do people think he's going to do on a good team? Transform into an all-star?

which one is it....Do you like him or not.And who said he was going to develop into an all star???

Someone in Cleveland must have thought he was good enough,otherwise the deal wouldnt have been made..You think Miles was the ONLY offer

I take it you cant name one player who developed past the age of 22???CMON


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## solo (Nov 29, 2002)

--Just a side note, not that it has anything to do with the thread


> Andre Miller was coming off a season where he led the league in assists and made the all-star team.


You sure he made the all-star team? He played in the rookie challenge not the all-star game.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> which one is it....Do you like him or not.And who said he was going to develop into an all star???


I dislike Miles very much, but I do admit there is a 20% chance he could still become starter quality with the right teammates and coaching.



> I take it you cant name one player who developed past the age of 22???CMON


CMON, this should be easy for any Knick fan.

Do you think Starks and Mase were young bucks when they transformed into players?

Starks at age 23: 4.1 ppg
Starks at age 24: out of league
Starks at age 25: 7.6 ppg
Starks at age 26: 13.9 ppg
Starks at age 27: 17.5 ppg
Starks at age 28: 19.0 ppg

Mason at 23: 1.8 ppg
Mason at 24: 3.3 ppg
Mason at 25: 7.0 ppg
Mason at 26: 10.3 ppg

Ward at 24: 1.6 ppg
Ward at 25: 3.9 ppg
Ward at 26: 5.2 ppg
Ward at 27: 7.8 ppg

Ewing at 23: 20.0 ppg
Ewing at 24: 21.5 ppg
Ewing at 25: 20.2 ppg
Ewing at 26: 22.7 ppg
Ewing at 27: 28.6 ppg

Houston at 22: 8.5 ppg
Houston at 23: 14.5 ppg
Houston at 24: 19.7 ppg

Sprewell at 22: 15.4 ppg
Sprewell at 23: 21.0 ppg

Walt Frazier at 22: 9.0 ppg
Walt Frazier at 23: 17.5 ppg
Walt Frazier at 24: 20.9 ppg

Did it ever occur to you that 22-23 is the age a college senior enters the NBA? What exactly is so hard about this task?

Paul Pierce at 21: 16.5 ppg
Paul Pierce at 22: 19.5 ppg
Paul Pierce at 23: 25.3 ppg
Paul Pierce at 24: 26.1 ppg

Desmond Mason at 23: 5.9 ppg
Desmond Mason at 24: 12.4 ppg
Desmond Mason at 25: 14.3 ppg

Shawn Kemp at 20: 6.5 ppg
Shawn Kemp at 21: 15.0 ppg
Shawn Kemp at 22: 15.5 ppg
Shawn Kemp at 23: 17.8 ppg
Shawn Kemp at 24: 18.1 ppg
Shawn Kemp at 25: 18.7 ppg
Shawn Kemp at 26: 19.6 ppg

McGrady at 18: 7.0 ppg
McGrady at 19: 9.3 ppg
McGrady at 20: 15.4 ppg
McGrady at 21: 26.8 ppg
McGrady at 22: 25.6 ppg
McGrady at 23: 32.1 ppg

Kobe at 18: 7.6 ppg
Kobe at 19: 15.4 ppg
Kobe at 20: 19.9 ppg
Kobe at 21: 22.5 ppg
Kobe at 22: 28.5 ppg
Kobe at 23: 25.2 ppg
Kobe at 24: 30.0 ppg

Boy, this is fun! Do I get to continue, or have you had enough?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

LOL STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I knew I shouldnt have asked you that....

Nice answer on Miles.I agree,except I think there is a 20% chance he could be really good.I am back to thinking hes worth a shot..here is what the New said

"Darius Miles is a 22-year-old player who is lost in the Cavs' halfcourt system, but can run the floor forever and has tons of upside. From all accounts, he's a good guy who just needs to grow up and get some serious teaching, then look out."

Get this guy now when his value is low...I love that most posters think he has no game..


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

If Miles can't average 10 ppg on a bad team, what do people think he's going to do on a good team? Transform into an all-star?

You made a good point that Miles is only 22,but you then question if he could transform into an all star..Why not???

as you showed lots of guys develop a little later in their career

Hes young and has tone of upside..If he busts his butt,he has the goods to be an all star


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## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

I'm still not feeling Darius Miles. I haven't seen or read anything on him, that sells me on him. Earlier in this post, I knocked shawn Marion, in which somebody replied maybe because he wasn't playing with Marbury he was stinking up the joint. He was able to play half decently with Marbury because, Marbury was able to set hem up going towards the basket a lot of the times. But in a half court game, again his dribble is not very good, his jumpshot is not very good, and all you have is a very exciting leaper/dunker. Don't underestimate the value of being able to put the ball on the floor and getting your own shot. Don't underestimate the value of hitting an open 10-15 ft shot. Neither Miles or Marion good do either. I'll stand by that until they show differently. I also wouldn't give up Frank Williams for him either one of them.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I have watched very little of Miles..80 percent of the time he looks totally lost and the other 20 he shows tremendous upside....

With that said,I think the Knicks have no choice but to gamble..They are in cap hell with NO draft picks...Where does that leave us???Do we have any hidden assets that could develop into stars???Sweetney??? I dont know....

Normally I wouldnt make a bet on a player like Miles..But we have absolutely no choice other than waiting for another superstar to choke his coach or get arrested and then pick him up...

I really like Frank,but he is stuck behind Starbury..We got starbury,now we have to make it his team...Miles could be his running mate


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Sure Miles can run, but we play in the East, where half court defense is paramount...


Tell that to New Jersey.



> You sure he made the all-star team? He played in the rookie challenge not the all-star game.


Actually I didn't think he went but threw it out there since I was too lazy to check his NBA player file, but he was certainly deserving. I recall all of the analysts were going crazy about him that year. A young PG who likes to distribute instead of shoot? He was the anti-Stephon Marbury.




> Neither Miles or Marion good do either


What are you talking about? Marion can create his own shot and can hit a mid-range jumper. His range extends to 3pt land. You'd come off more credible if you compared Miles to Harold Miner or Desmond Mason or something.



> I think there is a 20% chance he could be really good.


I think there's a 20% chance he could one day score 12-15 ppg. That's stretching it though.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

isnt he scoring around 9 per game now???

scoring is one thing,but lee nailon can score...I would hope Mile could do much much more


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> scoring is one thing,but lee nailon can score...I would hope Mile could do much much more


What's his FG%, 3PT%, and FT%?

He won't get nearly the amount of shots in NY that he does in Cleveland.

He averages 10.6 ppg as a starter, 7.6 as a backup.

And like the rest of Cleveland, he sucks on the road.

Lee Nailon is a better scorer than Miles, he just doesn't get the minutes. Miles does more than score though. He has decent handle and is an above average passer for his size. He's also an average, but versatile defender. That's why he supposedly has talent. Because he's got good handle for a big man. Too bad that's all he has.


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