# Is Derrick Rose a top five player?



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Simple question. Because right now he is being hyped as such. 

Dan Lebatard said roughly this today, and I agree with it--this is essentially what my view on Rose is:

He is the most essential offensive player on a mid-tier offensive team. And he is the least essential component of said team's number one defense.

If we say that Rose is top 5 because of how well the Bulls have played this year, and then we say that the reason that the Bulls win is because of their defense--and then we see that Rose does not play significant defense--then how can we then make the arguement that Rose is the reason for the Bull's success.

And if Rose is not responsible for the Bull's success, then he can not be a top five player--because again...the entire argument for his standing is based upon that essentially illogical idea.

Anyways. Discuss why you think he is or is not a top 5 player. This sort of spins out of the MVP discussion up above.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

It's pretty simple. A top 5 player has almost become a "caliber" of player, but it really comes down to whether or not there are 5 players better than him. LeBron, Wade, Durant, Howard, Kobe (no order) are better than him. I would take Deron and Paul over him too for the big picture, but if we're talking this year alone, Rose can be argued over those two so I'll leave them out. 

Rose is in that Dirk category, which is not top 5.


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## Juggernaut (Jul 20, 2010)

If I'm building a team, the only players I take above him is LeBron/Howard/Durant/Wade in that order. He's the worst of the top 5 imo.


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## Adol (Nov 25, 2004)

He's not top 5 - top 10, probably yeah.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

futuristxen said:


> Simple question. Because right now he is being hyped as such.
> 
> Dan Lebatard said roughly this today, and I agree with it--this is essentially what my view on Rose is:
> 
> ...


Rose was once an awful defender, he is now a very good defender. Probably 2nd best behind Rondo. He doesn't gamble like Rondo for the steals and can still improve, but as far as footwork and making life tough for the opponent, he's pretty darn good.

Top 5 player? Hmm I'd say give him a year or two. 

In no particular order: Lebron, Howard, Durant, Kobe, and Wade. The 6th spot is a toss up between CP3 and Rose IMO. If MVP were best player, then LBJ should be winning them all for the next decade. Rose has, however, lead his team to a top 2-4 NBA record while missing one of his top players for most of the season. If the Bulls lose Rose and not Boozer and Noah, I don't think they make the playoffs. Howard probably makes the biggest difference record wise if taken off his team, but the final ranking means a lot, regardless of your role players in MVP voting. That's why Rose is my MVP but top quite top 5 player. 

One more summer of improving his 3 pointer and already work on a post game and I think he cracks the top 5 player list, with either Kobe or Wade moving down to the 6 spot with age catching up to them(only a minor difference, nothing big). 

Hopefully this post made sense, it's almost 2am and I'm ready to crash


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Anyone who says Rose is a very good defender is not a very good analyst. Average is the best you could say.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Is Rose even the best point guard defender on his own team?


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Juggernaut said:


> If I'm building a team, the only players I take above him is LeBron/Howard/Durant/Wade in that order. He's the worst of the top 5 imo.


If I'm building a team, I'd take him over Wade. Wade's got more mileage on him and is gonna start hitting the old side soon. For me it would be:

1)Lebron







2)Howard/Durant/Rose


It really depends on how you choose to build your team. Do you want your guy to strive in leadership skills and be the point guard(Rose), do you want your guy to be able to drop 40 every night while also providing an all around game(Durant), or do you want a guy that dominates the paint(Howard).


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Diable said:


> Anyone who says Rose is a very good defender is not a very good analyst. Average is the best you could say.


Have you ever watched Rose play? You make him sound like some D-Leaguer. Anyways I don't have Synergy, but I believe his DRating is 2nd best or best among PG's.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

P to the Wee said:


> If I'm building a team, I'd take him over Wade. Wade's got more mileage on him and is gonna start hitting the old side soon. For me it would be:


Yeah but the discussion isn't "best young potential". It's right now. Top five. And right now DWade is much much much better than Rose. Even with Lebron lowering Wade's usage.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Not right now but he's just on the cusp.

Right now my top 5 is Lebron, Kobe, Dwight, Durant, Wade. Rose is on that second tier with guys like Dirk, Melo, Amare, Chris Paul.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

i don't put durant as a top tier.. he's a 3 who isn't capable of setting up his teammates. i think he's a better version of melo.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Is Rose even the best point guard defender on his own team?


lulz

I know you don't like Derrick Rose, and feel threatened by him, but come on.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Are we for sure that Rose has passed up CP3? CP3 is having a very underrated season this year. And he is doing it on one leg from the looks of it.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Pay Ton said:


> lulz
> 
> I know you don't like Derrick Rose, and feel threatened by him, but come on.


Find me any kind of evidence that I don't like Rose. That's a cop out. How could you not like Rose? Have you watched him? He's a very exciting player to watch. I enjoy watching him play. 

I'm evaluating the hype. As I think most are. Because right now he seems like the guy who is going to win the MVP. So I'm re-analyzing his game through that lens.

It's like, I enjoy Monta Ellis too. But if everyone was telling me he is the MVP of the league--and most media outlets have crowned him the MVP--I would want to scrutinize his game a little more, and see if it was really up to that MVP snuff.

It's almost exactly what happened when Steve Nash won the MVP by the way. I love Steve Nash as a person, love his game. He at that time was truly brilliant. But an MVP? Not so much. So during that time I probably had more posts critical of Nash than ever. Just because of that added level of hype.

With Rose my big thing was always that he avoided contact going to the rim, and I thought that was what was holding him back from really unleashing his potential. But apparently it was just playing on a better team and getting recognized for how ill he already is.

By the way, if you are a Rose fan, you should get used to this. Because if he wins the MVP, which seems likely--there is going to be a backlash. Especially if he doesn't win a title this year. The expectations the MVP creates are a new level for a guy like Rose. He's eventually going to have start justifying the hype.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Find me any kind of evidence that I don't like Rose. That's a cop out. How could you not like Rose? Have you watched him? He's a very exciting player to watch. I enjoy watching him play.
> 
> I'm evaluating the hype. As I think most are. Because right now he seems like the guy who is going to win the MVP. So I'm re-analyzing his game through that lens.
> 
> ...


It's justified to evaluate the hype. It's justified to contend that he doesn't deserve the MVP this year, and it's certainly justified to say that other elite players deserve it over him.

When you cross the borderline between justified and absolutely ridiculous is when you make backhanded assertions contending that he might not be the best defending point guard on his own team. I mean, that's not even debatable really. He most certainly is. Most certainly. No question.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Rose will win the MVP award - granted that award can be a joke but yeah, he's definitely in the conversation


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

A few false premises to start this thread out... a) that Rose is being consistently hyped as a top 5 player... I've heard him hyped as this years MVP, but have heard very little discussion about his rank among the league's best players... to say there is considerable hype for that specific argument seems weird to me... and b) that Rose is not a good defender.


I frankly think that Derrick Rose's flaws on defense were a bit overstated to begin his career. As of this year there's no denying that he has become a top level defender at the PG position.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

He's a Top 5 PG but not a Top 5 player in the league. I would place James, Kobe, Howard, Durant, Paul, Williams, Nash, Wade, Dirk, and even Griffin ahead of him. I view Rose much like I view Roy.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

As i've said before, Derrick Rose will be the kobe bryant of his generation. No matter what he does people will go out of their way to discredit him. There was a stat posted earlier in the season, I believe by synergy sports showing how good rose was defensively. There was also a stat showing how CP3 disappears in the 4th quarters. Derrick Rose does not. Stats have destroyed the game of basketball. The bulls have been healthy for 19 games this season, yet its all because of their defense right? Probably, but without Rose this bulls team is a .500 team at best. And we all know future's distain for all things bulls and hyperion being threated by another point guard winning the MVP not named steve nash.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

The best point guard in the league is averaging 7.8 assists and 3.4 turnovers while he shoots 44%...That's just sad if you believe that


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Diable said:


> The best point guard in the league is averaging 7.8 assists and 3.4 turnovers while he shoots 44%...That's just sad if you believe that


And his team is 51-19 for a winning percentage of 0.729%. 

Beleee dat!


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

Yes.

He is a 2k11 Iverson

Lebron
Kobe
CP3
Rose


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I think it's quite clear that Rose is the best PG this season. Paul is having a down year because of injuries and Deron Williams fell off the map after moving to NJ. Rose's high turnovers has to do with him being a scorer rather than a distributor, that hardly makes him a worse PG as long as his team is putting up Ws.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Derrick Rose is Steve Francis with a brain..

Anyway, as far as top 5, I've never really been beholden to staying within 5 if I think a bunch of guys are on the same tier. 

That said I don't know if I could put him with the LeBrons and Pauls and Dwight Howards. I think he can play the role if you put him with the right personel, like he has in Chicago, but those other guys could fit in on any team or dynamic, that's what makes them true franchise players. He's very very good though, becoming one of my favorite players.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

Dre said:


> Derrick Rose is Steve Francis with a brain..
> .


This is the comparision I've always made with Rose since he's been in the league. Steve Francis could have been great. He's a better rebounder than Rose is but Rose is what Steve Francis should have been.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

O2K said:


> Hyperion being threated by another point guard winning the MVP not named steve nash.


No, I would cheer Paul or Williams if they got MVPs. I would cheer Rose getting the MVP award, if it was deserved.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Diable said:


> Anyone who says Rose is a very good defender is not a very good analyst. Average is the best you could say.


He has been far better than average this season. Anything else is pretty outdated. He was pretty awful his rookie year and not much better last year, but he's improved leaps and bounds this year. Much credit to Thibodeau for teaching him (Del ***** did not). Even more to Rose for committing to that end.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Dre said:


> Derrick Rose is Steve Francis with a brain..


Yes, I've always agreed with that. Francis had the talent and skill to be what Rose is, but lacked the drive and discipline.



> Anyway, as far as top 5, I've never really been beholden to staying within 5 if I think a bunch of guys are on the same tier.


Agreed. This year more so than ever, there are many players lurking in that top tier. Rose is one of them.



> That said I don't know if I could put him with the LeBrons and Pauls and Dwight Howards. I think he can play the role if you put him with the right personel, like he has in Chicago, but those other guys could fit in on any team or dynamic, that's what makes them true franchise players. He's very very good though, becoming one of my favorite players.


I am one of those rare Bulls fans who does not think Rose really deserves MVP. He is certainly in the discussion, and how can he not be; his team is doing great, even overachieving, and he is by far the most important reason why (only All-Star in fact). Still, I think he makes too many unnecessary mistakes and mental lapses, and has not been as efficient as I'd like to see from him. That is fine -- the kid is 22 years old and has plenty of time to improve those pretty minor flaws. I would probably opt for Kobe or Howard this year, maybe Durant.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

O2K said:


> As i've said before, Derrick Rose will be the kobe bryant of his generation. No matter what he does people will go out of their way to discredit him. There was a stat posted earlier in the season, I believe by synergy sports showing how good rose was defensively. There was also a stat showing how CP3 disappears in the 4th quarters. Derrick Rose does not. Stats have destroyed the game of basketball. The bulls have been healthy for 19 games this season, yet its all because of their defense right? Probably, but without Rose this bulls team is a .500 team at best. And we all know future's distain for all things bulls and hyperion being threated by another point guard winning the MVP not named steve nash.


This is spot on.

Certainly the Bulls defense is amazing, but it gets old hearing about how Derrick Rose has nothing to do with that. Couldn't be further from the truth. 

Also if you wanna see what a Rose-less Bulls team looks like, just watch the Milwaukee Bucks. Excellent defense, but hands down worst offense in the league. It's so bad it makes their defense looks bad.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Simple question. Because right now he is being hyped as such.
> 
> Dan Lebatard said roughly this today, and I agree with it--this is essentially what my view on Rose is:
> 
> ...


If you believe this argument is true, then it certainly diminishes Rose's chances of winning the MVP this season. I think that MVP voters will use a different argument.

Rose's chances of winning the MVP are as good this season as they may ever be and here's why: 1) This is a fairly weak year for MVP candidates (see below), so, much like Nash's victories, it's a great time for a little guy to win an award that usually goes to mid-sized or big players; 2) Expectations of the Bulls will be higher next season. How much better can they do than win the East? How much more can Rose do individually?

Chicago (and Rose) has improved so much from this season to last that expectations will probably be too high going into next season.

Here is my take on how MVP voters will view this season's MVP candidates (not necessarily how I would vote, just how the MVP voters seem to vote):
1) Kobe - Recovering from offseason surgery and his team hasn't been dominating the league as much as expected.
2) LeBron & Wade - They are putting up very comparable statlines, their team is doing well but not dominating, many fans dislike their team because of the way the trade for LeBron was handled, and everyone expects that they will do even better in the future.
3) Nowitzki - Maybe if the Mavs had dominated the West, but otherwise no.
4) Chris Paul - His team and his stats dropped off somewhat from their early season pace.
5) Kevin Durant - He has a shot, but voters usually don't select dominant scorers who don't have a balanced statline. Plus, expectations were too high for OKC and it's Westbrook whose numbers have improved considerably, while Durant's scoring has dipped back below that treasured 30ppg mark.
6) Dwight Howard - His offense has improved this season, but (through little fault of his own) he is no longer leading the league in rebounds or blocks (yes, that matters to voters). Plus, his team is not viewed as a top contender and appears to have dropped off somewhat.
7) Anyone on the Celtics or Spurs - Excellent teams, but voters choose players with dominant stats, so I would be surprised to see anyone from these teams even sniff a top five finish in MVP standings.
8) Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, Monta Ellis or anyone from a mediocre to terrible team - Doesn't work like that.

All told, I think Rose has a pretty good shot this year. Chicago's improved record is largely due to their improved defense, which is thanks to Coach Thibodeau. Out of necessity, Rose was given the greenlight to run the offense (remember that Boozer was out early on, so the Bulls had next to nothing) and Rose performed brilliantly. Regardless of whether you consider him a good defender individually, he has bought into the team's defense and played his part well. Plus, by following Thibodeau's lead, he has helped set the tone for the team as a whole, with nearly everyone buying into a system that would likely have been rejected by other groups of players around the league (see Utah, for instance).

So, it's a great example of basketball as a team game and an all around feel good story for the NBA. I suspect that if Chicago can finish #1 in the East, both Thibodeau and Rose will walk away with the hardware.

_Is Rose as overall valuable or dominant as LeBron or Howard?_ I doubt it.
_Could another player - perhaps Russell Westbrook? - have performed just as well or better if placed in the same situation?_ Sure.
_Is Rose the best PG in the league?_ He might be the best scoring point, but I would still place Chris Paul and Deron Williams ahead of him without reservation as I believe a pass-first point who can score is more valuable. Steve Nash as well, if his age and poor defense are not a factor.
_Is Rose a great defender?_ Defense, more than offense, is a team game, and Rose (and the other Bulls) has done very well in implementing Thibodeau's defense.

None of this will prevent him from possibly winning this season's MVP award, and by the voters standards, I think it would be well deserved!


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

yodurk said:


> Certainly the Bulls defense is amazing, but it gets old hearing about how Derrick Rose has nothing to do with that. Couldn't be further from the truth.


It's not that. You're missing the point. It's not an all or nothing scenario. He's not the best defender on the Bulls and he's not the worst.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

Top 5? No. Overrated? Yes. He's not even the best PG in the league. Deron Williams is.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

Dre said:


> Derrick Rose is Steve Francis with a brain..


I would say Rose is Stephon Marbury with a heart, but this works!


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Heated said:


> Top 5? No. Overrated? Yes. He's not even the best PG in the league. Deron Williams is.


Jeez, what kind of ****ty team would let such an overrated player do this to them? :laugh:







Did D-Williams do this to them yet? What has he done with NJ so far?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Well let's see...

LeBron
Kobe
Howard
Wade
Durant

So no, he's not top five. I'd say that he is in the top 8 and is right in the conversation with the Dirks of the leauge.

And while he's played better than CP3 and Williams this year, it's not a guarentee that Rose is continue to be better. Paul has been injured all year and Deron got traded to a bottom feeder midway through the season. It's not really fair to compare them due to the circumstances.


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## DunkMaster (Mar 1, 2011)

I say wait till next year at all-star break and re-evaluate. He has more drive than the other guys not in the top 5, and is already talking about working mostly on a post-up game in the summer. I can see people saying he's not in the top 5 yet. But people's argument about him having a better year than Dwill or CP3 but that he's not going to be the best point doesn't make much sense. He seems to have more room for improvement than both of them.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

yodurk did a pretty good job of summing up my thoughts on things. I think Dwight is the MVP, but Rose is likely to win it.

Top 5 is a bit high right now, but he's definitely up in that discussion and I'd expect him to be there by next year.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

P to the Wee said:


> Jeez, what kind of ****ty team would let such an overrated player do this to them? :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So by this argument Paul Milsap is the best player in the NBA.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> So by this argument Paul Milsap is the best player in the NBA.


Do the Jazz have 50 wins and swept the heat ? Come on dude.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Do the Jazz have 50 wins and swept the heat ? Come on dude.


By that argument: Rondo for MVP 

Or Dirk.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

King Joseus said:


> yodurk did a pretty good job of summing up my thoughts on things. I think Dwight is the MVP, but Rose is likely to win it.
> 
> Top 5 is a bit high right now, but he's definitely up in that discussion and I'd expect him to be there by next year.


LeBron, Dwight, Wade and Kobe are better for sure. After that, the argument can be made for Rose. I'd put him just outside the top five right now, but it won't be long.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> By that argument: Rondo for MVP
> 
> Or Dirk.


Is Rondo considered the best player on the Celtics, NO! The Bulls have actually beaten the Celtics this season, and have one more game at the end of the year to split the season series 2-2. Who's leading the East, that's right the Bulls not the Celtics. And the Bulls swept the Mavericks in the regular season. So my point regarding Rose against the Heat essentially holds water across the board. The Bulls beat the elite led by Rose, regardless what team and best player you name drop.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Derrick Rose is clearly in my top 5. 

1.) Kobe Bryant
2.) Dwight Howard
3.) Dwyane Wade/LeBron James
4.) Derrick Rose
5.) Kevin Durant


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Well that's not helping Rose and you need to work on your math


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

I know we have a lot of people still rating Williams and Paul ahead of Rose like it doesn't deserve a second thought - I guess my question is, how many times does he have to take them to school to change your mind? 

In any Hornets/Bulls or Jazz/Bulls (or Nets/Bulls) game I've seen this year it has been pretty clear who the best player on the court was... and he was wearing #1.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Dornado said:


> I know we have a lot of people still rating Williams and Paul ahead of Rose like it doesn't deserve a second thought - I guess my question is, how many times does he have to take them to school to change your mind?
> 
> In any Hornets/Bulls or Jazz/Bulls (or Nets/Bulls) game I've seen this year it has been pretty clear who the best player on the court was... and he was wearing #1.


That must make DJ Augustin the best point guard in the NBA...Or is it Jarret Jack?


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

Diable said:


> That must make DJ Augustin the best point guard in the NBA...Or is it Jarret Jack?


:laugh: Your hate for Rose is ridiculous


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Derrick Rose is clearly in my top 5.
> 
> 1.) Kobe Bryant
> 2.) Dwight Howard
> ...


Your top five has six players in it....:clown:


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Your top five has six players in it....:clown:


Okay, Mr. Smarty Pants! :smart:


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

Rose is a beast, and is either in the top 5 or close enough for it not to matter.

I would say that Lebron and Dwight Howard are the 2 best players in the league. But after that it's a toss up of 5 or so similar caliber players and Rose is in theat mix.

Also I think there are a couple other things that might be getting overlooked with Rose, that have a huge impact on the bulls winning.

1.) He seems to be a great leader and comes across as the most humble and coachable star in the league. I think when your best player has that attitude it really allows the team and coaching staff to come together and put egos asside. I think it is obvious that a big part of the bulls success has to do with how well they have responded to Thibs and how well the team plays together.

2.) He is providing his excellent scoring from the pg position. Which is rare in the NBA as most teams have their primary options playing other positions (nameley the wing). Also most pg's in the NBA are sub-par defenders and most teams have their shutdown defenders on the wing or in the post. This allows the bulls to have huge mismatches with other teams. And it also allows the bulls to have excellent defenders on the wing (where most other teams good offensive players are) without having to rely on them for offense (bogans + Brewer).

So I think there are some other things outside of just "how good is he" that help increase his value to the bulls.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Right now, no. Any coach or GM in the league would take Lebron, Wade, Howard, Kobe and Durant over Rose right now.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Why is Durant considered better then Rose?

Durant's obviously a better scorer in terms of volume and efficiency but doesn't really rebound or pass the ball real well. His defense is also far from notable.
Rose is behind in scoring but he creates a lot of opportunities for his teammates and he's got the assist ratio that double his turnover ratio to show it.

Both teams are playing real well but I'd argue Rose has done more with less since both Boozer and Noah has missed large chunks of time. Meanwhile, Durant has a talented team around him including one guy on his team in Westbrook who could be easily called the MVP or co-MVP of that team.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

LeBron
Wade
Kobe
Dwight
Durant

No.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Idunkonyou said:


> Right now, no. Any coach or GM in the league would take Lebron, Wade, Howard, Kobe and Durant over Rose right now.


Thats just not true


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

It looks like outside of Bulls fans and posters who are huge Rose fans, people do not have him in the top 5, but rather in the top 10. So I think he is just being overrated in the media, not by the fans (on this forum at least).


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

roux2dope said:


> Thats just not true


If you say so. I just don't see what he has done to warrant so much hype, especially when it comes to MVP. Last time I looked, that is something that is normally earned, through rep in the playoffs and multiple great seasons over time, not just in one good season. I have a feeling if he was on a small market team, his hype meter would be shallow, kind of like with Howard, who is obviously having the best season out of any one so far this year.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It looks like outside of Bulls fans and posters who are huge Rose fans, people do not have him in the top 5, but rather in the top 10. So I think he is just being overrated in the media, not by the fans (on this forum at least).


Pretty much, but like I said in my post above, it has more to do with the market he is in. If he was doing this on a small market team, he would be lucky to be in the top 3 MVP candidates IMO.

And before any one mentions how Lebron did it, Lebron posted out of this world numbers. Rose isn't even close to doing that. His team is winning and he is having a good season. MVP season though? Don't think so. Top 5 player already? No. Top 10? Yes.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Idunkonyou said:


> If you say so. I just don't see what he has done to warrant so much hype, especially when it comes to MVP. Last time I looked, that is something that is normally earned, through rep in the playoffs and multiple great seasons over time, not just in one good season. I have a feeling if he was on a small market team, his hype meter would be shallow, kind of like with Howard, who is obviously having the best season out of any one so far this year.


Your post read to me like n coach would take those guys over rose.. sorry if i misinterpreted, but getting to youyour actual point, outside of lebron,d12 and maybe kobe you could argue rose over durant and wade right now this year


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Idunkonyou said:


> Pretty much, but like I said in my post above, it has more to do with the market he is in. If he was doing this on a small market team, he would be lucky to be in the top 3 MVP candidates IMO.
> 
> And before any one mentions how Lebron did it, Lebron posted out of this world numbers. Rose isn't even close to doing that. His team is winning and he is having a good season. MVP season though? Don't think so. Top 5 player already? No. Top 10? Yes.


Team record plays a big part in the MVP voting. If Orlando was on top of the East, Howard would be running away with the East with the exact same or worse numbers. Same thing if OKC was leading the West: even if Durant's numbers were significantly less then what he's putting up he'd be way out front. It's really only Nash in his second MVP year that it went to a team that wasn't at the top or damn close to the top of the standings


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

Pioneer10 said:


> Team record plays a big part in the MVP voting. If Orlando was on top of the East, Howard would be running away with the East with the exact same or worse numbers. Same thing if OKC was leading the West: even if Durant's numbers were significantly less then what he's putting up he'd be way out front. It's really only Nash in his second MVP year that it went to a team that wasn't at the top or damn close to the top of the standings


Yep. "Market schmarket" as the experts say. Team record is the key.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It looks like outside of Bulls fans and posters who are huge Rose fans, people do not have him in the top 5, but rather in the top 10. So I think he is just being overrated in the media, not by the fans (on this forum at least).


I'm neither and I'm not so sure that Rose isn't a top 5 players. Mainly because after Howard and Lebron, it seems that after that there's a bunch of players who are all around the same. NBA has just a lot of great players right now who are playing well.

Wade, Kobe, Rose, Durant, Paul, Dirk all look like they could be a top 5 guys if you catch them when they are on a hot streak


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Pioneer, do you put Westbrook in that category after LeBron/Howard? He is having a season that is at worst equal to Rose.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Pioneer, do you put Westbrook in that category after LeBron/Howard? He is having a season that is at worst equal to Rose.


I'm a big Westbrook fan: he's a PG version of Wade. He should be considered but the one issue with making that strong of a statement with Westbrook is this is his first real superstar type of season. I'd argue back has Durant really been better then Westbrook for his team? Both have been equally impressive for OKC IMO. With that viewpoint, I think it's hard for me to think of Rose as somehow a tier below them. 

Going back to Rose, I'm not a Bulls guy but he should get credit for driving that team to the record they have: I for one didn't think they would be this good especially if you told me that Noah and Boozer would miss that much time. I just don't see big difference either in there numbers or team records to really distinguish the rest after Lebron and Howard**. You can give guys like Wade and particularly Kobe extra credit for what they have done in the past but from an actual production stand point this year hard to differentiate the top tier.

**I think you have to put these guys above the rest simply by seeing what happened to Cleveland w/o Lebron and Howard clearly is the best defensive player of any of the guys being discussed.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

There's a noticeable drop off from the Kobe and Wade and LeBron level to the Dirk level. That has been proven continuously.

Those guys also play multiple positions and can go get you rebounds with the game on the line. You don't see PG's dominating the boards or affecting the entire court with their presence. Basketball is still a big man's game.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> I'd argue back has Durant really been better then Westbrook for his team?


Yes, but not by a lot. Although I think that people knock Durant by using Westbrook's season, when really it's a tribute to Durant's ability to dominate games without dominating the ball. I mean, Westbrook and Rose basically have the same usage rate which is crazy considering how much Rose has the ball for Chicago. Westbrook is the guy dominating the ball on the Thunder, and it works because Durant can still be great without also needing to control the ball. Durant still gets his effortless 30ppg because he plays well without the basketball, draw so much attention and is still dangerous without the basketball (think Ray Allen coming off of screens). In this way, he is like Dwight because he is the only other player in that top 8 category who you can say that about. Everybody else either relies on isolations or is the primary playmaker on their team so the ball is naturally in their hands a ton.


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## DunkMaster (Mar 1, 2011)

Durant is too one dimensional to be considered in the top 5.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

roux2dope said:


> Your post read to me like n coach would take those guys over rose.. sorry if i misinterpreted, but getting to youyour actual point, outside of lebron,d12 and maybe kobe *you could argue rose over durant and wade right now this year*


Try it. And start with the part that Wade is probably at worst 2nd or 3rd ALL NBA defense. Then you can go ahead and go to the offensive side of the ball where Rose still falls to Wade, who has to share to ball with the most gifted player in the league(Lebron James)

Lebron James and Dwyane Wade are the two best individual players in the league. But Rose's team has a better over all record. But then again they also have a ****load more depth. The Heat are extremely top heavy. But that don't change the facts.

If anybody wins the MVP besides one of those two, it's a joke. Please try and argue it. The only argument one could possibly have is that Chicago has a better record. But most people here agree that he isn't even a top 5 player!

The only player I see outside of them that actually deserves it is Dwight. So it should come down to Lebron vs Dwight vs Wade. But Rose will probably get it since he's the media darling.


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## DunkMaster (Mar 1, 2011)

Heated said:


> Try it. And start with the part that Wade is probably at worst 2nd or 3rd ALL NBA defense. Then you can go ahead and go to the offensive side of the ball where Rose still falls to Wade, who has to share to ball with the most gifted player in the league(Lebron James)
> 
> Lebron James and Dwyane Wade are the two best individual players in the league. But Rose's team has a better over all record. But then again they also have a ****load more depth. The Heat are extremely top heavy. But that don't change the facts.
> 
> ...


Wait, so the team with the 6th best record in the nba has the two best players in the league and one of them deserves the mvp because, they have no supporting cast? except for the next best player in the league and another max contract guy, lmao?!? Logic is flawed here.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Pioneer10 said:


> Both teams are playing real well but I'd argue Rose has done more with less since both Boozer and Noah has missed large chunks of time. Meanwhile, Durant has a talented team around him including one guy on his team in Westbrook who could be easily called the MVP or co-MVP of that team.


They were never without both Boozer and Noah. And Taj Gibson sort of mitigated the Boozer loss because he's so much better defensively than Boozer is.

The Noah loss wasn't that big either because again...the Bulls have depth at that position.

I think if they had lost Deng for an extended period of time they would have had much more of a problem, because they would have had to start Korver or Brewer and either lose a lot on offense or a lot on defense. 

If you look at MPG Deng actually plays more than Rose, which should tell you a lot. He's probably the most important/trusted player in Thibadeau's system. And in fact it was his play on both ends that really was the difference in the games against the Heat and other big teams.

It's an overlooked aspect of the Bulls--but the improved play of Deng, along with greater overall team depth have had a lot to do with their success this season. Probably moreso than Rose who has been really great. But we've seen guys play a lot better than Rose is playing right now, even this year--and their teams have worse records. Until someone can find me some tangible connection that proves that Derrick Rose somehow by himself produces more wins than anyone else in the NBA--I'm going to probably say he's a very good player, who is on a very good team.


What will be interesting to see is how the Bulls do in the playoffs in the second round against the Magic. A big reason for the Bulls success is that depth, and in the playoffs you're really talking about a 7 man rotation. And I'm not sure the Bulls 7 man rotation is really that elite. But we'll see.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

futuristxen said:


> The Noah loss wasn't that big either because again...the Bulls have depth at that position.


not sure where I stand on the overall question at play in this thread but I did flash on this and think to myself: "there were games where the Bulls started Kurt f-ing Thomas" and then I checked and Thomas has 34 starts this season so not just a handful - albeit he has done ok, especially for being older than Greg Oden looks but when your game plan involves starting and playing methusalah extended minutes you really have dug pretty deep into whatever depth you might have


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Yes, but not by a lot. Although I think that people knock Durant by using Westbrook's season, when really it's a tribute to Durant's ability to dominate games without dominating the ball. I mean, Westbrook and Rose basically have the same usage rate which is crazy considering how much Rose has the ball for Chicago. Westbrook is the guy dominating the ball on the Thunder, and it works because Durant can still be great without also needing to control the ball. Durant still gets his effortless 30ppg because he plays well without the basketball, draw so much attention and is still dangerous without the basketball (think Ray Allen coming off of screens). In this way, he is like Dwight because he is the only other player in that top 8 category who you can say that about. Everybody else either relies on isolations or is the primary playmaker on their team so the ball is naturally in their hands a ton.


This is an interesting post. It's exactly why I would prefer to build a team around Durant over Lebron. Even though Lebron is "better" (or more talented in a vacuum), Durant is easier to build a team around and arguably more "valuable", if that makes any sense (getting OT, sorry).


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Back on topic, are people so sure that Dwayne Wade is still better than Rose?

Beyond getting a ton of respect from the refs and knowing how to draw fouls, I'm failing to see what Wade does better than Rose anymore. Rose is clearly a better shooter and playmaker, and probably the better defender at his position (Wade can get really lazy on D at times). Wade probably still has the edge on finishing ability by a hair and of course is more efficient b/c his misses usually end up as free throw attempts.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

e-monk said:


> not sure where I stand on the overall question at play in this thread but I did flash on this and think to myself: "there were games where the Bulls started Kurt f-ing Thomas" and then I checked and Thomas has 34 starts this season so not just a handful - albeit he has done ok, especially for being older than Greg Oden looks but when your game plan involves starting and playing methusalah extended minutes you really have dug pretty deep into whatever depth you might have


Kurt Thomas>Eric Dampier
He was also a key cog in the Bucks defense last year after Bogut went out. The guy gives you physical veteran defense with some solid shot making. That's pretty damn good especially when you combine it with that Asik kid, who has been suprisingly good.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> They were never without both Boozer and Noah. And Taj Gibson sort of mitigated the Boozer loss because he's so much better defensively than Boozer is.


Actually, yes they have been without boozer and noah, rather recently I believe and they still won by a large margin. Boozer is much better offensively than Taj is, not to mention Taj has had trouble all year staying OUT of foul trouble when he's been on the floor. He averages almost 3 fouls a game despite only playing 22 min a game on average. 



> The Noah loss wasn't that big either because again...the Bulls have depth at that position.


Noah before his injury was a 15 and 10 guy who got you about 1-2 blocks a game with great individual defense. The guy they were starting- Kurt Thomas- got you 4 points and 6 rebounds a game while constantly being in foul trouble. Kurt has been great for the bulls no doubt, but to say that he mitigated Noah's injury is ridiculous.




> I think if they had lost Deng for an extended period of time they would have had much more of a problem, because they would have had to start Korver or Brewer and either lose a lot on offense or a lot on defense.


Deng has been the bulls second best player, that's like saying if Thunder lost Westbrook or if the heat lost wade/lebron for an extended period of time. Another crazy statement.




> If you look at MPG Deng actually plays more than Rose, which should tell you a lot. He's probably the most important/trusted player in Thibadeau's system. And in fact it was his play on both ends that really was the difference in the games against the Heat and other big teams.


Deng plays the minutes he plays because yes, he's the glue guy on that team but he also plays more positions. He's played at SG, SF, and even PF this season. He plays more than Rose because he guards the other teams best wing for the most part. His play is the difference in the same way Bosh's play in the difference for the Heat. 



> It's an overlooked aspect of the Bulls--but the improved play of Deng, along with greater overall team depth have had a lot to do with their success this season. Probably moreso than Rose who has been really great. But we've seen guys play a lot better than Rose is playing right now, even this year--and their teams have worse records. Until someone can find me some tangible connection that proves that Derrick Rose somehow by himself produces more wins than anyone else in the NBA--I'm going to probably say he's a very good player, who is on a very good team.


Without Rose the bulls are milwaukee bucks at best. Rose accounts for almost all the Bulls offense. Hell Kobe Bryant isn't even number 1 in his team in win shares. But lets give the MVP to Kevin Love because without him the Wolves probably wouldn't have won a game all season.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

yodurk said:


> Back on topic, are people so sure that Dwayne Wade is still better than Rose?
> 
> Beyond getting a ton of respect from the refs and knowing how to draw fouls, I'm failing to see what Wade does better than Rose anymore. Rose is clearly a better shooter and playmaker, and probably the better defender at his position (Wade can get really lazy on D at times). Wade probably still has the edge on finishing ability by a hair and of course is more efficient b/c his misses usually end up as free throw attempts.


Huh? Wade is definitely a better mid range shooter, though Rose is probably the better three point shooter (still only a 34% guy, not much better than average).

Even in a down year for Wade he's scoring more points on a better percentage from the field, grabbing more boards, getting more steals, has a higher PER, higher TS%, higher eFG%, and is turning the ball over less in very comparable minutes.

Wade is still clearly the better player.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

yodurk said:


> Back on topic, are people so sure that Dwayne Wade is still better than Rose?
> 
> Beyond getting a ton of respect from the refs and knowing how to draw fouls, I'm failing to see what Wade does better than Rose anymore. Rose is clearly a better shooter and playmaker, and probably the better defender at his position (Wade can get really lazy on D at times). Wade probably still has the edge on finishing ability by a hair and of course is more efficient b/c his misses usually end up as free throw attempts.


I like your argument, you state conjecture as fact and dare anyone to call you out. Wade shoots 49% from the field. Rose shoots 44%. So you're wrong there. Wade gets 6 rebounds a game. Rose gets 4. Wade is one of the best players in the NBA.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

DunkMaster said:


> Wait, so the team with the 6th best record in the nba has the two best players in the league and one of them deserves the mvp because, they have no supporting cast? except for the next best player in the league and another max contract guy, lmao?!? Logic is flawed here.


6th best record in the league by 1 or 2 games Whoooa I'm blown away. The only team that's pulled away from the pack this year is SA. Go ahead and pick the MVP from that team. Great argument dude. Try and remember, this is an individual reward.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

GregOden said:


> Huh? Wade is definitely a better mid range shooter, though Rose is probably the better three point shooter (still only a 34% guy, not much better than average).
> 
> Even in a down year for Wade he's scoring more points on a better percentage from the field, grabbing more boards, getting more steals, has a higher PER, higher TS%, higher eFG%, and is turning the ball over less in very comparable minutes.
> 
> Wade is still clearly the better player.


Not sure I agree about the midrange shooting. Rose last year was way up there on midrange shooting efficiency, definitely better than Wade. It's dropped a little this year, I think, though not drastically.

IMO, rebounds and steals are meaningless in this comparison. Steals do not equal defense, and I don't care if my point guard grabs 4 vs 6 rebounds. Wade rebounds b/c the Heat need him to, where the Bulls don't need that from Rose.

PER, TS%, and eFG% is all highly influenced by efficiency, which I acknowledged Wade is better at due to his ability to draw fouls at an insane rate. 

I'm merely saying it's not a no-brainer that Wade is better. It is in fact pretty close if you ask me.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Hyperion said:


> I like your argument, you state conjecture as fact and *dare anyone to call you out*.


Please. I did nothing of the sort.



> Wade shoots 49% from the field. Rose shoots 44%. So you're wrong there.


On the contrary I said Wade is more efficient than Rose. 



> Wade gets 6 rebounds a game. Rose gets 4.


Yes, I put rebounding way up there on my wish list for point guard qualities. 



> Wade is one of the best players in the NBA.


You can say this generic statement about 10 guys right now. This thread wouldn't exist if it weren't true for Rose as well.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Heated said:


> this is an individual reward.


And, a very ambiguous one. How to define "value" in the NBA; it is most *valuable *player after all, not most talented. I would think that "value" in this context refers to their value toward winning games for their team.

Just a really hard award to get right, especially this year where there isn't a clear cut winner.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

yodurk said:


> Please. I did nothing of the sort.


Using the words "clearly" indicates that this topic is beyond discussion.



> On the contrary I said Wade is more efficient than Rose.


Yes by saying the refs bail him out when he misses so it's a technicality is being disingenuous to say the least. Wade takes 40% of his shots inside the paint. Rose takes less than 30% inside the paint. So shot selection has a big bias on his higher FG%. Wade is relied on MORE in crunch time than Rose as exhibited by his 36% - 32% of shots attempted in crunch time. 



> Yes, I put rebounding way up there on my wish list for point guard qualities.


 god forbid the point guard gets the rebound to start the fast break! I guess that has no bearing as to why Kidd and Magic were great point guards.




> You can say this generic statement about 10 guys right now. This thread wouldn't exist if it weren't true for Rose as well.


Well, I originally wrote best, but James is better. I would put Wade above Rose by a healthy margin though.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

yodurk said:


> And, a very ambiguous one. How to define "value" in the NBA; it is most *valuable *player after all, not most talented. I would think that "value" in this context refers to their value toward winning games for their team.
> 
> Just a really hard award to get right, especially this year where there isn't a clear cut winner.


That's just it you assume Rose is winning games for The Bulls. Just because he is their best player doesn't exactly make him responsible for all their success as a squad.

The Heat will only better last years record by a about +10 wins. Nothing to sneeze at sure. But Wade put that scrap heap team on his back last year to the tune of 47 wins. I'd say that puts him ahead of Rose. And then you Have Lebron, look how hard his former team has fallen, and he has the best statistical line in the game by a small margin on Wade and Howard. Does that not qualify as "valuable" to you?


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Simple question. Because right now he is being hyped as such.
> 
> Dan Lebatard said roughly this today, and I agree with it--this is essentially what my view on Rose is:
> 
> ...


Rose is not a Top-5 player in the league.
Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Howard and Durant are better.
Arguably Dirk.
But Rose is right there, like Paul and Deron.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I think what we've learned from this discussion is that there is really only a top 4 in the NBA right now. After that it's all up to personal preference in picking through about 7 other guys. There's a wide gap between the top four guys and the guys below them.

Rose is pretty firmly a second tier player, and right now would have to improve quite a bit to get into the first tier.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Heated said:


> That's just it you assume Rose is winning games for The Bulls. Just because he is their best player doesn't exactly make him responsible for all their success as a squad.
> 
> The Heat will only better last years record by a about +10 wins. Nothing to sneeze at sure. But Wade put that scrap heap team on his back last year to the tune of 47 wins. I'd say that puts him ahead of Rose. And then you Have Lebron, look how hard his former team has fallen, and he has the best statistical line in the game by a small margin on Wade and Howard. Does that not qualify as "valuable" to you?


That was a general statement not intended for the Rose discussion. For what it's worth, I don't think Rose should get MVP nor do I care if he gets it.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> I think what we've learned from this discussion is that there is really only a top 4 in the NBA right now.


Judging by this thread, I don't know which of the consensus 5 you're leaving out. LeBron and Howard are no-brainers. People are challenging the idea that Wade/Durant are better than Rose, and if I personally had to pick a top 4 out of the top 5, Kobe would be my odd man out at 5th. 

I think the top 5 is pretty set with Wade, Durant and Kobe in those three spots 3-5 and LeBron and Howard at 1-2.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Rose is pretty firmly a second tier player, and right now would have to improve quite a bit to get into the first tier.


I do agree that he is in the upper in the of second tier, but I think there is little doubt that he can improve to be in that first tier. I mean just look at his improvement from year to year. Did anyone last year say he could have had this type of season at anytime through his career? Rose has one of the best work ethics in the league, I have no doubt by the end of next season he will be in that first tier


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

futuristxen said:


> I think what we've learned from this discussion is that there is really only a top 4 in the NBA right now. After that it's all up to personal preference in picking through about 7 other guys. There's a wide gap between the top four guys and the guys below them.
> 
> Rose is pretty firmly a second tier player, and right now would have to improve quite a bit to get into the first tier.


Improve quite a bit? He's right there, he just didn't crack the top 5 yet. Like I said, the 5th spot is a toss up and Rose will likely claim it next year. That doesn't require improving quite a bit.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

P to the Wee said:


> Improve quite a bit? He's right there, he just didn't crack the top 5 yet. Like I said, the 5th spot is a toss up and Rose will likely claim it next year. That doesn't require improving quite a bit.


For my own personal list I think CP3 and Deron are closer to cracking the first tier than Rose is. 

Especially CP3, who I think quietly has been having a better season(along with Westbrook) than Rose. I know head to head Rose won the matchup or whatever--but it's hardly fair in that comparison because CP3 is fighting with less weapons than Rose, and going against the top defense in the league. It's harder for CP3 in a head to head matchup against the Bulls, than it is for Rose going the other way. But if they switched teams CP3 would have won the matchup.

CP3 is the one guy in the second tier that on his day can outplay even Lebron at his best.

To pass CP3 I think Rose either needs to become a better playmaker with the ball, or score closer to Durant's level and distinguish himself that way.

Going on a deep playoff run like Deron has would help too.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> People are challenging the idea that Wade/Durant are better than Rose


Are they really challenging the idea? I haven't seen one good argument for why Rose is better than either player.


But let's break it down into further tiers then:

1st tier:
Lebron
Howard
Wade

2nd tier:
Durant
Kobe

3rd tier:
CP3
Deron Williams
Dirk
Westbrook
Rose
ect.

Of the third tier I think CP3, Rose, Westbrook, and Deron are biggest threats to climb into the second tier. With CP3, Durant, and Rose being the biggest threats to get into that top tier. Though Blake Griffin could leap frog all of them.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> For my own personal list I think CP3 and Deron are closer to cracking the first tier than Rose is.
> 
> Especially CP3, who I think quietly has been having a better season(along with Westbrook) than Rose. I know head to head Rose won the matchup or whatever--but it's hardly fair in that comparison because CP3 is fighting with less weapons than Rose, and going against the top defense in the league. It's harder for CP3 in a head to head matchup against the Bulls, than it is for Rose going the other way. But if they switched teams CP3 would have won the matchup.
> 
> ...


NO has the 6th best defense according to Def Eff.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Are they really challenging the idea? I haven't seen one good argument for why Rose is better than either player.
> 
> 
> But let's break it down into further tiers then:
> ...


Your tiers are messed up... How does Wade make into the same tier as Lebron and Howard? There is clearly a healthy gap between Wade and Lebron/Howard...


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

caseyrh said:


> NO has the 6th best defense according to Def Eff.


One is better than 6. It goes without saying.


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## DunkMaster (Mar 1, 2011)

futuristxen said:


> Are they really challenging the idea? I haven't seen one good argument for why Rose is better than either player.
> 
> 
> But let's break it down into further tiers then:
> ...


why isn't kobe in the first tier?


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## DunkMaster (Mar 1, 2011)

futuristxen said:


> For my own personal list I think CP3 and Deron are closer to cracking the first tier than Rose is.





futuristxen said:


> Of the third tier I think CP3, Rose, Westbrook, and Deron are biggest threats to climb into the second tier. With CP3, Durant, and Rose being the biggest threats to get into that top tier. Though Blake Griffin could leap frog all of them.


Huh?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

DunkMaster said:


> Huh?


Right now I think CP3 and Deron are closer to the next tier, ahead of Rose. But Rose's best years are ahead of him, and he will probably radically improve this summer as well which means he could make the jumps around the same time as CP3--who is really only slumming it this season IMO, and really honestly belongs on the same level as Lebron/Wade/Dwight. He was definitely there before he had the knee injury.

As for the suggestion that Wade doesn't belong on the same tier as Lebron and Dwight...he's closer to Lebron than he is to Kobe. He does everything Lebron does, but just slightly less. On both ends of the floor. He's been better than Kobe for a year or two now. And Durant has yet to pass him.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

DunkMaster said:


> why isn't kobe in the first tier?


The only possible justification for putting Kobe on the same tier as Lebron and Dwight and Wade is because of his career achievements. Heck, that's part of what has him in the second tier to be honest. I think if the Lakers traded Kobe for Durant this season, they probably would be even better. The debate as to whether Kobe is better than Wade or Lebron ended a few seasons ago for me. Kobe is still a fantastic player, capable of having his night every now and again. But he's not the player he once was consistently.

If you want to bump Durant up to Wade's tier, and have Kobe between that tier and the lower tier, I wouldn't protest too much.


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> As for the suggestion that Wade doesn't belong on the same tier as Lebron and Dwight...he's closer to Lebron than he is to Kobe. * He does everything Lebron does, but just slightly less*. On both ends of the floor. He's been better than Kobe for a year or two now. And Durant has yet to pass him.


So according to you hes worse then Lebron at everything... yet in the same tier?


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## DunkMaster (Mar 1, 2011)

Idk, I think I put career achievements a lot higher than you. It doesn't matter what you do in the regular season really, is all about the playoffs, and thats where Kobe shows up. Lebron has the energy to carry a team the entire 82 game season, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, and he can't do the job, does it really matter what he did prior?


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## caseyrh (Jun 10, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> One is better than 6. It goes without saying.


Just kinda silly to insist that in individual matchups Rose has this huge team D advantage, when CP3 also has one of the best team D's in the nba. Seems like your grasping at straws.


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## atz (Jul 11, 2006)

DunkMaster said:


> Idk, I think I put career achievements a lot higher than you. It doesn't matter what you do in the regular season really, is all about the playoffs, and thats where Kobe shows up. Lebron has the energy to carry a team the entire 82 game season, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty, and he can't do the job, does it really matter what he did prior?


I'm interested, do you have anything to back this up that doesn't rely on team achievements (=quality of teammates) or some sort of subjective opinion (well um, he just is, watch the game)?

I mean if you look at any sort of normal or advanced statistics, nothing would imply this to be true. For example:

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

or

http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/playoffs.htm
http://www.82games.com/0708/playoffs/playoffs.htm
http://www.82games.com/0607/playoffs/playoffs.htm

The reason I didn't link to more recent stats is because i didn't find them. But i'm pretty sure if there was some sort of enormous gap between them "when it mattered" it would show up in some of these stats.

...and please don't respond "Look at the number of rings Kobe has".


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

caseyrh said:


> Just kinda silly to insist that in individual matchups Rose has this huge team D advantage, when CP3 also has one of the best team D's in the nba. Seems like your grasping at straws.


Well they only played each other once, and Rose's team shot over 50 percent, while Paul's team shot under 41 percent. It would see there would be a disparity in team defenses there, unless you think Rose is a one man defense.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

caseyrh said:


> So according to you hes worse then Lebron at everything... yet in the same tier?


Yes, but you see they play on the same team, and Lebron controls the ball much more often, thus diminishing some of Wade's stats, although those stats are still better than the 2nd and 3rd tier players futurist listed. 50% shooting from a guard is pretty g'damn phenomenal.

I personally would still put Kobe in first tier, although Wade is clearly the best SG in the game right now.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

It's always been so difficult for me to rank the top 5or top 10 players in the league because there are so there is so little seperation between some of the players. In years past, was there a huge difference between the 4th best player in the league and the 9th best player or the 10th best player and the 15th best player? I've always preferred the tier system. The first two tiers are the NBA's elite and the third tier is full of great players who are just a cut below them. Here's how I'd rank them, in order:

First Tier:
Lebron

Like him or hate him (that's me), he's the best in the league. AJ23 aside, I don'y think many people would disagree.

Second Tier:
Wade
Howard
Kobe

Wade is the second best player in the league. Saying he's a poor man's version of the best player in the game isn't really a knock. He's still better than Howard, who needs to put it all together before I can move him into the first tier and Kobe, who has noticeably declined but is still hanging on.

Third Tier:
Durant
Dirk
Rose
Westbrook
Williams
Paul

Durant has the talent to move into the second tier but I'd like to see him become more well-rounded and take on the challenge of battling a player like Artest who has eaten his lunch when it's mattered most. Dirk is consistent and right where he belongs. The next 4 guys are the best PGs in the league. Skill-wise, Paul is still the best and belongs in the second tier but I need to see that the knee is healthy and that he can play in every game before I move him up again. I have Rose on top because he and his team have had the best year. 

I only listed ten players because there are others who belong in the third tier. It kind of contradicts what I said above but there is so little seperation between some of the players that I could list 5-6 more names.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> For my own personal list I think CP3 and Deron are closer to cracking the first tier than Rose is.
> 
> Especially CP3, who I think quietly has been having a better season(along with Westbrook) than Rose. I know head to head Rose won the matchup or whatever--but it's hardly fair in that comparison because CP3 is fighting with less weapons than Rose, and going against the top defense in the league. It's harder for CP3 in a head to head matchup against the Bulls, than it is for Rose going the other way. But if they switched teams CP3 would have won the matchup.
> 
> ...


CP3 and Deron are hard to read correctly right now. CP3 in particular is lacking some motivation, IMO. He doesn't want to be in his current situation; or at least that was the buzz before the season started. Put him onto the Knicks or Celtics, teams with high quality scorers, and I think he'd step it up and play like the best PG in the league again. Alot of this seems mental to me. It's not that he's play bad, he is just inconsistent right now, as if he isn't playing his hardest every night.

That being said, Rose is having the better season. The stars have just aligned that way. CP3 may very well have a better season next year, and I agree is more than capable of being better than Rose.


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## goodfoot (Feb 28, 2009)

If Rose got those "superstar" calls his FG% would be better.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

goodfoot said:


> If Rose got those "superstar" calls his FG% would be better.


How so?


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> How so?


His misses where you could possibly call a foul, would be converted into 2 shots at the line, getting rid of that "missed shot"...


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Eternal said:


> His misses where you could possibly call a foul, would be converted into 2 shots at the line, getting rid of that "missed shot"...


I am sort of mixed on this argument. He has slowly been getting more fair calls, but still has many instances where you wonder what the refs are smoking. He's so fast and strong, I think it's easy to miss.

For the sake of fun, let's say 1 missed shot per game on average should in all fairness be a foul call (2 FT attempts, 85% FT shooting). That wouldn't be unrealistic given the frequency he goes to the rim. FG% would rise up to 46%, and PPG would rise to 26.5. That is not insignificant for such a minor change in circumstance, so we shouldn't just rule it out. Not sure I buy into it either.


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

"He is the most essential offensive player on a mid-tier offensive team. And he is the least essential component of said team's number one defense."

I can agree with that sentiment. Thing is though, as good as the team defense is, without Rose generating on offense (ie/ a Boozer led offense), the Bulls arent the best team in the East. Hence, why I think theres good reason to give him the MVP. He shoulders a lot of responsibility on the offensive end whereas the defensive success can be attributed to a number of factors like TT coming in as coach and just good individual defenders on the team.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

"...And he is the *least essential* component of said team's number one defense."

That is just wrong. The only Bulls defenders that are more "essential" to the Bulls defense are Deng, Noah, and Ronnie Brewer.

Asik, Gibson, and Kurt Thomas are better defenders, but not more essential. They don't play enough and they are easily replaceable.

Rose is an overall better defender right now than Bogans and CJ Watson.

Why is it so painful to admit that he is, quite simply, the most essential player on the team...period? A team is a team, and a win is a win.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Pay Ton said:


> It's justified to evaluate the hype. It's justified to contend that he doesn't deserve the MVP this year, and it's certainly justified to say that other elite players deserve it over him.
> 
> When you cross the borderline between justified and absolutely ridiculous is when you make backhanded assertions contending that he might not be the best defending point guard on his own team. I mean, that's not even debatable really. He most certainly is. Most certainly. No question.



its not as indisputable as you think, watson pretty much kills him defensively in advanced stats ...better def. rating, better defensive PER, the bulls are 9.1 points per 100 possessions better with watson on the court 10.4 worse with rose on the court.

personally i think they are about even...i think rose benefits from being a bad defender previously to good one now he looks better than he actually is.


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