# Can You Really Blame Vince



## Vinsane (Feb 27, 2005)

I don't know if this topic has been touched upon but can you really blame Vince for wanting out of Toronto. He had a valid point in everything he said all the players that were there when they got to the semi finals were just about gone. Every other team in the east were improving while they were getting sorrier. And there was no consistency in the organization every year there was a different coach or gm. Then the organization couldn't draft. I agree CB4 was a good pick but then they turn around and pick Aruajo, I mean why dude is clearly the biggest bust ever in the NBA was he realy the best big man in the draft at the time to come at number 8.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

I don't blame him one bit, if anything i blame Toronto's management for not hiring Dr. J.


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## KoBe & BeN GoRdOn! (Aug 4, 2005)

yes


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## Vinsane (Feb 27, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> I don't blame him one bit, if anything i blame Toronto's management for not hiring Dr. J.


Wasup Airfly


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

Players shouldn't be demanding trades, period.


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## 7M3 (Aug 5, 2002)

There's no reason to look at this from an objective POV. However you see the situation in Toronto, from Vince's standpoint, he was playing with teammates he did not get along with, under a coach he absolutely despised, and for an organization he did not believe was interested in winning. So, no, I do not blame Vince for wanting to leave Toronto. Some may say there were better ways for him to express his discontent, and I might agree. But, plain and simple, Vince was not happy in Toronto, and he did what he had to to extricate himself from that situation.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Of course I blame him. Trade demands are unprofessional. You get paid millions of dollars to play the game. The only reason trade demands exist is because star players are so rare. Demanding a trade is using your leverage against your boss.


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## 7M3 (Aug 5, 2002)

It's easy to sit here and say that these guys are getting payed millions of dollars, and, no matter how unhappy they are, players need to just shut their mouths and take it. But that's simply ignoring the reality of these players lives. I don't care how much money you're making, if you have to be around people you do not like every single day of your life, in my mind atleast, you have the right to try and change your situation.


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

WTChan said:


> Of course I blame him. Trade demands are unprofessional. You get paid millions of dollars to play the game. The only reason trade demands exist is because star players are so rare. Demanding a trade is using your leverage against your boss.


The trade demand was reasonable. For one they have a bonehead GM in Rob Babcock. The team is stranded between rebuilding and keeping players (Jalen Rose, Donyell Marshell). The team didn't seem like they wanted to win or even be in the playoffs. I don't think Vince didn't get along with his teammates. He always socializes with his former teammates before games.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

i dont blame him... Just look back on the history of the raptors Managament... they allowed, Marcus Camby, Damon Stoudamire, Dough Christie, Tracy go away.....Steve francis made it clear he would not play for Toronto if they drafted him...The went and picked Aurajo... they promised vc that he would have a saying and stabed him in the back without even telling him before hand....they hired Rob Babcock who made one of the most worst trade in the History of the Nba.... They changed 4 or 5 coaches in 4 years...i mean the managmenet ,clearly, did not know what it was doing... Yeh maybe he could've demanded the trade properly... But it's better than under -the-scenes.... at least vince is honest about everything he says...


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

Nope. VC_15 summed it up well enough for my liking, that and Mitchell is a tool.


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## junkyarddawgg (Mar 24, 2005)

Well, one of the reasons they couldn't get help for Vince after the succesfull campagin of a few years back when they lost to Philly in 7 games was because they had spent all their money on keeping mediocre players by overpaying them on long-term (or maybe it was the season before, anyways...), BECAUSE Vince asked the management to keep Alvin Williams, Jerome Williams, Antonio Davis, etc. They kinda had to do that because it was the best way to keep Vince in Toronto.

That was, to be honest, the management's mistake to cave in to VC's demands. I did agree with the Raps' management NOT to hire Dr. J as our GM simply because Vince wanted it. Vince does not run the team, the management does. 

As for players leaving, we traded Camby away because he was too injury-prone (he's great when he's not injured, everyone knows that... but that's when he's NOT injured) for Oakley, who whipped Vince into shape.

The Stoudamire & Christie trades i don't know very well, it was a too long time ago, I didn't follow the Raps back then.


We didn't let T-Mac go, he just decided to leave. He told the Raps organisation that he was gonna stay, but he jsut bolted after we didn't resign him. It was the management's mistake to not suspect that T-mac was about to bolt. But at the same time, we couldn't trade him, cuz then people would of have looked back saying: "Ha! You see? The raps traded a superstar away". At least now, we're victims instead of being stupid 

Steve Francis just didn't want to play in Canada. I mean he was drafted by the Vancouver Grizzlies and he refused to play for them. It was a similar situation this year with Gerald Green and Channing Frye who openly expressed that they did not want to play for a Canadian team.

And yeah, the drafting of Araujo was a mistake, but it did make sense kind of. Our cornerstone of the future was Bosh, and if the management wanted him to survive until he blossoms, they had to draft some one to play center for us. Araujo, a big strong center, seemed to be the right answer.

So I do think that management has done mistakes (and one of them was caving in to Vince's demands), but I don't think that Vince did the right thing by demanding a trade. Can i blame Vinec for wanting out? I think yes, because I believe that he was a big part of the problem, along with the management. The fact that he didn't play often, came to camp out of shape and played soft did not help in my opinion of him. I do however understand that he slacked off because he lost faith in the organisation. I understand, but I don't think it was the right thing to do. He's a pro, he should act like one.

(sorry for the mess, my ideas aren't ordered, i gotta work on that )


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

I want to see a team owner with enough balls to take a player who demands a trade and sit his *** right on the bench until he changes his attitude and plays.

Think a few seasons on the bench would have motivated Vince?


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

VC_15 said:


> i dont blame him... Just look back on the history of the raptors Managament... they allowed, Marcus Camby, Damon Stoudamire, Dough Christie, Tracy go away.....Steve francis made it clear he would not play for Toronto if they drafted him...The went and picked Aurajo... they promised vc that he would have a saying and stabed him in the back without even telling him before hand....they hired Rob Babcock who made one of the most worst trade in the History of the Nba.... They changed 4 or 5 coaches in 4 years...i mean the managmenet ,clearly, did not know what it was doing... Yeh maybe he could've demanded the trade properly... But it's better than under -the-scenes.... at least vince is honest about everything he says...


It has nothing to do with if a player likes the managment or not, if hes getting paid 16 million a season he should suck it up, be a man and god damb well play

Vince is a lazy piece of ungratefull **** (srry pationate Raps Fan)


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

junkyarddawgg said:


> (sorry for the mess, my ideas aren't ordered, i gotta work on that )


You still got a rep from me. 

I disagree in that I can't blame him for wanting to be traded. But I do not think he should have gone to the media about it. Unless that was some part of his strategy, I think that was the most unprofessional thing he has done in his career and it has really hurt his image from all angles.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> It has nothing to do with if a player likes the managment or not, if hes getting paid 16 million a season he should suck it up, be a man and god damb well play
> 
> Vince is a lazy piece of ungratefull **** (srry pationate Raps Fan)



ungratefull? are you out of your mind....first of all he is not getting paid 16 millions a season...second..it has everything to do with the Management if they keep making the wrong decision that concerns the ball's club future...third.. he sucked it up for quite a while...when your fans doesnt support u anymore... and most of ur teamates don't want to play with u... i don't blame him for asking a trade....I know your a pationate raps fan...i highly doubt u were one when vc wasnt playing in TO.


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

VC_15 said:


> ungratefull? are you out of your mind....first of all he is not getting paid 16 millions a season...second..it has everything to do with the Management if they keep making the wrong decision that concerns the ball's club future...third.. he sucked it up for quite a while...when your fans doesnt support u anymore... and most of ur teamates don't want to play with u... i don't blame him for asking a trade....I know your a pationate raps fan...i highly doubt u were one when vc wasnt playing in TO.


Ya ungrateful 

first of all are u ****iin me is there really a difference between 12 or 16 million, second of all if ur making that kind of money suck it up and play third u gotta be kidding me fans not supporting him bull **** fans supported him everyday that he gave 100%, it was only when he started to "not give is all" that the fans started to get on him, and mayb the reason his teammates didnt want to play for him is cause he wasnt playing for them

Vince Carter Is ungrateful for all that the fans and team gave him


edit: i was a raps fan before vince, during vince, and actually i am bigger fan after vince


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> Ya ungrateful
> 
> first of all are u ****iin me is there really a difference between 12 or 16 million, second of all if ur making that kind of money suck it up and play third u gotta be kidding me fans not supporting him bull **** fans supported him everyday that he gave 100%, it was only when he started to "not give is all" that the fans started to get on him, and mayb the reason his teammates didnt want to play for him is cause he wasnt playing for them
> 
> Vince Carter Is ungrateful for all that the fans and team gave him



he sure is ungratefull with all those charities work he did in Toronto...... I don't know the exact amount... But Vince did spend Millions on charity in Toronto... so saying VC is ungratefull is really being ignorant...and yes there is a difference betwene 12 and 16 million.. 4 millions can support like 2 families...or more....


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

VC_15 said:


> he sure is ungratefull with all those charities work he did in Toronto...... I don't know the exact amount... But Vince did spend Millions on charity in Toronto... so saying VC is ungratefull is really being ignorant...and yes there is a difference betwene 12 and 16 million.. 4 millions can support like 2 families...or more....


 
in the big picture does 4 million make a difference when ur makeing 12 million a year? 


HELL NO!


I love the fact that Vince gave millions to charities to families in Toronto, but im am talking about how he let every the fans that bought a ticket to a game that he "didnt give his all" in, how there hard earned money meant nothin to him.


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

To those who have shown hatred towards VC in this thread,calling him lazy among other things,if you which to call him lazy,that's your choice,but know that it has no relevance concerning the subject.

''Was he right in asking a trade?''..So to answer,you have to put yourself in VC's shoes BEFORE last season. So that 15.9ppg is irrelevant since it was after the trade demand.

Although I shouldn't have to specify this,I just figured I would help those whose reason is clouded with hatred.


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

VCFSO2000 said:


> To those who have shown hatred towards VC in this thread,calling him lazy among other things,if you which to call him lazy,that's your choice,but know that it has no relevance concerning the subject.
> 
> ''Was he right in asking a trade?''..So to answer,you have to put yourself in VC's shoes BEFORE last season. So that 15.9ppg is irrelevant since it was after the trade demand.
> 
> Although I shouldn't have to specify this,I just figured I would help those whose reason is clouded with hatred.


dont understand anything you said

ps: i dont hate vince i just think that what he did was bull **** and its never right for a person making millions to demand anything with all the other **** goin on in the world, they have it so good and most of them dont realize how lucky they really are


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> dont understand anything you said
> 
> ps: i dont hate vince i just think that what he did was bull **** and its never right for a person making millions to demand anything with all the other **** goin on in the world, they have it so good and most of them dont realize how lucky they really are


Don't see why you don't understand what I said. And you little ''p.s'' shows that you at least understood something...


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

Honest Question If Vince came out and demanded a trade how would you feel? 


dont even try and say you wouldnt care cause that bull you would probably react the same way that almost every Raps fan did 



ps: i know its unlikely to happen but please humour me


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

VCFSO2000 said:


> Don't see why you don't understand what I said. And you little ''p.s'' shows that you at least understood something...


 
you have like 3 or 4 ideas packed into a few sentences, and my little ps thing came from the whole conversation that happened previous to the post, if you could just clarify that would be super


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> Honest Question If Vince came out and demanded a trade how would you feel?
> 
> 
> dont even try and say you wouldnt care cause that bull you would probably react the same way that almost every Raps fan did
> ...


I swear to God what you're about to read is truthful lol...

I would be mad because IMO he's in the greatest situation of his career,him being the go-to scorer without being the leader. I would be mad and would call him stupid.

BUT

Normally,no matter who the player is,if he asks a trade and it is justified,then so be it. I'm not saying I'm happy and saying ''Yeah,let them know you're mad..Get out of there!'' I'm just not mad or anything.


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

When I think about it..There's nothing about a trade demand that makes me mad...If anything,it's holdouts that annoy me more than anything.


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

VCFSO2000 said:


> When I think about it..There's nothing about a trade demand that makes me mad...If anything,it's holdouts that annoy me more than anything.


 
How can a player giving up on the team not piss you off


And be honest if he did that to the nets you wouldnt feel a little betrayed




note: im hitting the hay right now but hopefully we can finish this little back and forth later


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> How can a player giving up on the team not piss you off
> 
> 
> And be honest if he did that to the nets you wouldnt feel a little betrayed


1)The thing is, I just relate these professional sports situations to what we consider ''normal life''...Let's say you were a lawyer at a unrecognized and poorly led law firm,wouldn't you want to be transferred at a law firm that gets to maximise your skills? 

2)I wouldn't feel betrayed. I would think he was dumb leaving a perfect situation like that. But if you want me to ignore the situation,and just look at from a fan's perspective,then I'd be disappointed. *But as long as I feel it's justified*(Doesn't like the direction in which the team is going,feud with owner etc..) Who am I to judge? This is not a VC answer,I swear I've never negatively reacted to a trade demand.


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## BALLERHOLLIC (Dec 29, 2005)

Yes, you can.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

I love the fact that the Nets acquired Vince Carter for peanuts, but I think what Vince Carter did was wrong. I think what Alonzo Mourning did was wrong. What McGrady did was wrong. And I think what Ron Artest is doing is wrong. These players signed longer contracts... over those contracts they did not think that there could be coaching changes, major players getting hurt, guys leaving, other teams develop to be much stronger?

Everyone talks about Tim Duncan about being one of the greatest players today. Well he's more than that.

The 1st time Tim Duncan was a FA, he was offered a max contract by the Magic. *He turned down that max contract and resigned with the Spurs for 3 years. He signed for less than half of another offer so he could control his own fate.* Then the Magic threw the money at Tracy McGrady another ingrate. Anyway do you think the Spurs only wanted to sign him for 3 years? Or do you think Duncan asked for 3 years because he knew that sooner than later, David Robinson would retire? Over that 3 years, if the team became really bad again, or he didn't think he could win, he could leave.

So there are better ways to handle things and better ways to plan things.

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

VCFSO2000 said:


> 1)The thing is, I just relate these professional sports situations to what we consider ''normal life''...Let's say you were a lawyer at a unrecognized and poorly led law firm,wouldn't you want to be transferred at a law firm that gets to maximise your skills?


Ah then you are relating wrong. Because most law firms DO NOT sign their lawyers to contracts.

Why not compare it to unionized workers whom work with contracts? I hate the NYC MTA, but at least they waited until their deal to throw their strike into action.

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

And yes 1 other thing for now. People here talk about how a team can screw over the player by bringing in bad pieces. But what are some of the returns on Carter, Tracy McGrady, or Artest right now? When you make demands, and in public it really hurts your value and what teams get back for them.

-Petey


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## Slade (Dec 7, 2005)

I don't blame VC for wanting out. I blame him for PUBLICILY demanding a trade which severely hurt his trade value and Rob Babcock was forced to deal him for a crappy deal. No one is going to offer a good package for a player who demands a trade. Vince screwed over the Raptors. That's what pisses me off. He could have quietly gone to Babcock and asked for a trade, but he had to bring in the media. 

And this is coming from a VC fan.


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## Slade (Dec 7, 2005)

VCFSO2000 said:


> ''Was he right in asking a trade?''..So to answer,you have to put yourself in VC's shoes BEFORE last season. So that 15.9ppg is irrelevant since it was after the trade demand.


So what your saying is you can slack off and decrease your trade value after you publicly demand a trade???


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

VC_15 said:


> i dont blame him...


No kidding...


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

He should have demanded the trade before the draft, JMO. Put the organization in a really bad spot.

Rafael Araujo practically gets booed everytime he touches the ball in Toronto, it's crazy. If they had JR Smith or Iguodala, they would probably not be a bottom five team.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> No kidding...



same goes for u....Your answer will be.. i do blame him.....( No kidding )..?


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

TheATLien said:


> He should have demanded the trade before the draft, JMO. Put the organization in a really bad spot.
> 
> Rafael Araujo practically gets booed everytime he touches the ball in Toronto, it's crazy. If they had JR Smith or Iguodala, they would probably not be a bottom five team.



they coudl've drafted wade.. they went with bosh... they could've drafted Iggy.. they took Araujo...


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

What is the difference between what Vince did to Toronto (demanding a trade) and wha Zo did to Jersey (not Toronto. In Jersey he wanted out)

Net fans seem to accept one and whine about the other daily...


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## Slade (Dec 7, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> they coudl've drafted wade.. they went with bosh... they could've drafted Iggy.. they took Araujo...


I don't see a problem with drafting Bosh. And the Raps needed a big man and had no way to know that Arujo would be a bust.


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## Slade (Dec 7, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> What is the difference between what Vince did to Toronto (demanding a trade) and wha Zo did to Jersey (not Toronto. In Jersey he wanted out)
> 
> Net fans seem to accept one and whine about the other daily...


Exactly!


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> What is the difference between what Vince did to Toronto (demanding a trade) and wha Zo did to Jersey (not Toronto. In Jersey he wanted out)
> 
> Net fans seem to accept one and whine about the other daily...


theres a big difference...Vince actually played...Zo..did not even report... he didn't even Come to TO....


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> What is the difference between what Vince did to Toronto (demanding a trade) and wha Zo did to Jersey (not Toronto. In Jersey he wanted out)
> 
> *Net fans seem to accept one and whine about the other daily...*


There are Nets fans, and then Vince Carter fans.

Now of course some Nets fans like Carter, and some Carter fans that like the Nets.

Don't think you'll find many Carter fans complain about what Zo did, those are Nets fans.

Don't think you'll find many Nets fans care what Carter did though.

Like I said, both were trash moves, but I do enjoy watching Carter in NJ.

-Petey


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

VC_15 said:


> theres a big difference...Vince actually played...Zo..did not even report... he didn't even Come to TO....


not toronto as I made very clear.

what he did to Jersey (forcing a trade, where he went to toronto). He played in NJ at the beginning of the season.


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## junkyarddawgg (Mar 24, 2005)

Lemme just rehash what i said earlier, but with less blabla:

*Trade demands, right or wrong?*

1) Trade demands are not necessarily wrong.
2) However, trade demands done publicly are wrong, because they REALLY decrease the value of the player

*Wanting to be traded because the team sucks, right or wrong?*

1) It is right (kinda, it's a touchy question) if you have no control over the team, i.e. you didn't make any management decision (and that's the way it should be, there shouldn't be any player-GM's)
2) It is wrong if you are the cause of the team sucking. (Vince handcuffed the Raps by making them sign mediocre players to big contracts; sure the management did a mistake, but it was partly Vince's fault. Not only that, he stopped trying after a few years, which meant the team would suck even more. Need proof? When he went down the last time the Raps made the playoffs, we went on a 12-2 (or stg like that) run to finish the season and make the playoffs.)

So there you go, my 2 cents for what it`s worth.

Edit: Forgot to mention: this is an analysis of the Carter case, I don't think you could apply this to Artest (cuz IND doesn`t suck), or not even to McGrady, tho he didn't try that hard in ORL when they started sucking)


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## sjinto (Oct 7, 2005)

It's never right when a player goes public with a trade demand but it's even worse when players who sign long-term deals bail out when things aren't going their way.

When things got tough, VC starting dogging it on the court and starting sulking in locker room... "look at poor me, I didn't know long-term meant going through the tough times too"  ...

"I'm going to play like crap and demand a trade" 

:jawdrop: 

Can you Blame him.... I think so.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> not toronto as I made very clear.
> 
> what he did to Jersey (forcing a trade, where he went to toronto). He played in NJ at the beginning of the season.


Exactly, why are there so many Nets fans bashing Mourning for his tenure in NJ, hes no different from Carter; either they are both fools, or they are both right in what they did. You can't have it one way for one player and another way for another player.


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

This is bull**** at its best....so if I am making millions yet everytime I step into my place of work I am not happy then I should suck it up and be sad for the rest of my life....Honestly the only thing I blame Vince for is going to the media and seeking the trade publicly...besides that he had every right to ask out of a bad situation...one that wasnt looking remotely better in the next couple of years...

And Petey your on the nets board a lot....how did you feel about Kidd wanting out before Vince came in....how did you feel when the media kept speculating on where he wanted to go or not...did you feel it was right for him to leave a situation where he didnt want to be...what makes Vince's situation any different when all he wanted to do was win....


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

osman said:


> Exactly, why are there so many Nets fans bashing Mourning for his tenure in NJ, hes no different from Carter; either they are both fools, or they are both right in what they did. You can't have it one way for one player and another way for another player.


Stop trying to make Vince a scapegoat...what makes him any different from Baron, Peja, Shaq, Kidd, Tmac who in one form or the other asked out from the teams they were playing for....


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

osman said:


> Exactly, why are there so many Nets fans bashing Mourning for his tenure in NJ, hes no different from Carter; either they are both fools, or they are both right in what they did. You can't have it one way for one player and another way for another player.


Sure you can... It's called being a "fan." Being a fan is all about bias...if you weren't bias then you wouldn't like any player, team, or even sport in particular for that matter. You'd just accept all in the name of fairness. Being a fan of basketball helps me get away from a world that expects objectivity. And as much as I do respect objectivity, that's not why I'm a fan of basketball.

Aside from that, what Zo did was different from what Vince did in Toronto.

Zo demanded a trade because NJ sucked and he wanted a championship because he and his poor liver wouldn't be around forever to get the chance. Vince demanded a trade and Toronto coincidentally sucked. He wanted out of a bad management situation, not because he didn't want to improve the team.


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## Mr. Bold (Nov 17, 2005)

Why are people still talking about this topic?

Vince days with Raptors was already over before he even asked for the trade. They had to go seprate ways. Vince is not a leader, he is a follower (to Kidd, to Oak (anybody noticed that Vince's last gr8 season with the Raps was the same as Oak's last season with Raps))

Honestly as a Vince fan (I still am VC fan and to some extent Nets fan) and a Raptors fan, I am glad they went their seprate ways. Vince is producing gr8 stats which I am loving, and tlhough Raps are not winning but the future looks bright with Rookies and Bosh (mark it down, he will be an all-star this year).

p.s. I do agree that VC demanding a trade through the media was not such a good idea. It turned a whole nation of VC fans for which he was six time starting line-up all star into haters (not that it matters but that was the main reason for his crappy plays but still end up being no.1 vote getter). He should have just demaded personally from the organzition.


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

WTChan said:


> Of course I blame him. Trade demands are unprofessional. You get paid millions of dollars to play the game. The only reason trade demands exist is because star players are so rare. Demanding a trade is using your leverage against your boss.


Yup, I agree with this. Even if your team is losing, you are still paid to play losing games. Quit winning. Be more productive. The only reason Vince can complain because he was treated like a star player. Did you ever see Shawn Bradley complain? lol Like Mavs would listen to his sh!t.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

TheGrowth said:


> Stop trying to make Vince a scapegoat...what makes him any different from Baron, Peja, Shaq, Kidd, Tmac who in one form or the other asked out from the teams they were playing for....


Haha! well said, beside Vince demanded the trade in the offseason....so go ask Rob why he didn't deal him at that moment?

Vince Carter is not the first one to ask to be traded publically and won't be the last one. He wanted a better situation away from Toronto and got his wish but it was just too late for Bobcocks to pull the trigger. Thats why i blame Rob and i think all raps fans should too if you're being real. Raps could've gotten some better players in return for Carter if he was traded in the offseason....Keyword: Offseason.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

he could make all the demands he wants privately to the mangement, but to go to the media and then dog it on the court is unacceptable.
oh poor vince he was one of the most popular athletes in the world. :boohoo:


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Yes I can blame him. He signed the contract. Players that sign contracts thinking "well if I don't like how things end up I'll throw a fit and ask to go somewhere else and still get paid" lack any professionalism or class.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

> Yes I can blame him. He signed the contract. Players that sign contracts thinking "well if I don't like how things end up I'll throw a fit and ask to go somewhere else and still get paid" lack any professionalism or class.


ditto...repped.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> Yes I can blame him. He signed the contract. Players that sign contracts thinking "well if I don't like how things end up I'll throw a fit and ask to go somewhere else and still get paid" lack any professionalism or class.


Well then, blame half of the players in the league including Shaq (next Artest) who even had a say on where to be traded.


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> Haha! well said, beside Vince demanded the trade in the offseason....so go ask Rob why he didn't deal him at that moment?
> 
> Vince Carter is not the first one to ask to be traded publically and won't be the last one. He wanted a better situation away from Toronto and got his wish but it was just too late for Bobcocks to pull the trigger. Thats why i blame Rob and i think all raps fans should too if you're being real. Raps could've gotten some better players in return for Carter if he was traded in the offseason....Keyword: Offseason.


 
You got to be kidding, the Raps were never going to get fair market value for Vince are his little "not giving it my all" **** that he pulled. 

Personally i dont think the deal was too bad for the Raps, sure if Vince was avergaing 28ppg for the raps they could have got alot more but those 2 first round picks are really gonna help the raps in there rebuilding movement


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> Well then, blame half of the players in the league including Shaq (next Artest) who even had a say on where to be traded.


 
I HATE every player who demanded a trade from any team for any reason, it garbage and it has to be stopped by the NBA, players are getting the idea that they are bigger than the team


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> You got to be kidding, the Raps were never going to get fair market value for Vince are his little "not giving it my all" **** that he pulled.


Did you even read my post?

Was he dogging it during the offseason? I believe he did average 22.5 PPG just last season, so his value was still high until Sam screw it up.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> Yes I can blame him. He signed the contract. Players that sign contracts thinking "well if I don't like how things end up I'll throw a fit and ask to go somewhere else and still get paid" lack any professionalism or class.


I agree 100 percent.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> I HATE every player who demanded a trade from any team for any reason, it garbage and it has to be stopped buy the NBA, players are getting the idea that they are bigger than the team


You said it yourself that many NBA players do that, so why only blame my boy Vince for wanting a better chance at winning a ring in the right situation?

Tmac asked to be traded from Orlanldo cuz he felt that team wasn't going anywhere, but i never hear any complains from fans (nba fans in general)?


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

TheGrowth said:


> And Petey your on the nets board a lot....how did you feel about Kidd wanting out before Vince came in....how did you feel when the media kept speculating on where he wanted to go or not...did you feel it was right for him to leave a situation where he didnt want to be...what makes Vince's situation any different when all he wanted to do was win....


Last season I was ALL for trading Kidd. Did Kidd make his demands public though? And to this day is that demand of JKidd's just a rumor?

Try comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges. As I've started, what Zo did was a *****. What Carter did is a *****. Am I happy he's on the team right now? Yes. Doesn't make what he does less wrong.

As I said, Duncan set up his situation where he had control over where he played. Other players should follow his example.

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

Air Fly said:


> Haha! well said, beside Vince demanded the trade in the offseason....so go ask Rob why he didn't deal him at that moment?
> 
> Vince Carter is not the first one to ask to be traded publically and won't be the last one. He wanted a better situation away from Toronto and got his wish but it was just too late for Bobcocks to pull the trigger. Thats why i blame Rob and i think all raps fans should too if you're being real. Raps could've gotten some better players in return for Carter if he was traded in the offseason....Keyword: Offseason.


Do you understand what a contract is? When you sign a contract you are supposed to play it out for that team or retire (leave the league). You are at that point an employee of that company. Vince signed to play those number of years with the Raptors. Why should he be allowed to leave? If Vince Carter got hurt, do you think he would pay the Raptors the money back for games he missed? No, that is why a contract is there to protect both the team and the player. In this cause he abused his contract.

And just because he requested to be traded in the offseason, that is an excuse for poor play during the season? As you said ALOT of players request trades in the offseason. If they are not traded for they let it effect their play? 

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

Air Fly said:


> You said it yourself that many NBA players do that, so why only blame my boy Vince for wanting a better chance at winning a ring in the right situation?
> 
> Tmac asked to be traded from Orlanldo cuz he felt that team wasn't going anywhere, but i never hear any complains from fans (nba fans in general)?


Air Fly... read the quote again, he just said *he hates every player that demands a trade*.

And you know is this really complaining? The topic was brought up by a Carter fan.

-Petey


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Petey said:


> Air Fly... read the quote again, he just said *he hates every player that demands a trade*.
> 
> And you know is this really complaining? The topic was brought up by a Carter fan.
> 
> -Petey


Actually, the sentence wasn't directed at him but people who complains and blame VC for demanding the trade and consider him unproffesional..Well they might as well then blame Tmac, Shaq, Artest and list goes on and call them names right?


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## Slade (Dec 7, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> Actually, the sentence wasn't directed at him but people who complains and blame VC for demanding the trade and consider him unproffesional..Well they might as well then blame Tmac, Shaq, Artest and list goes on and call them names right?


People call him unprofressional because he quit on the team and started dogging it after demanding the trade. Tmac, Shaq etc never did that.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Petey said:


> Do you understand what a contract is? When you sign a contract you are supposed to play it out for that team or retire (leave the league). You are at that point an employee of that company. Vince signed to play those number of years with the Raptors. Why should he be allowed to leave? If Vince Carter got hurt, do you think he would pay the Raptors the money back for games he missed? No, that is why a contract is there to protect both the team and the player. In this cause he abused his contract.
> 
> And just because he requested to be traded in the offseason, that is an excuse for poor play during the season? *As you said ALOT of players request trades in the offseason. If they are not traded for they let it effect their play? *
> 
> -Petey


The coaching system effected Vince's play as far as i know.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Slade said:


> People call him unprofressional because he quit on the team and started dogging it after demanding the trade. Tmac, Shaq etc never did that.


Tmac admitted to taking some nights off with the magic when they started the season 1-12. I also call going out there and looking for just your stats "dogging it" (though he was sick) cuz he gave up on the season.

Shaq has always looked out of shape with the Lakers (reason why they traded him IMO) and did you see the difference when he started his first season with Miami?

However IMHO, Carter never dogged it with the raptors, but thats another story.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

People 'demand' trades all the time. And when they do, they should expect to be ripped in the press and by the fans for it. He got his trade, so he should be happy. But he also has to expect the collarteral damage of demanding and getting it.


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> However IMHO, Carter never dogged it with the raptors, but thats another story.


 
He amitted on public television he didnt always "give it his all"


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

superdude211 said:


> He amitted on public television he didnt always "give it his all"


That comment was wrt/ working out in the offseason. TNT editting gave it some ambiguity as to whether it was on the court or off. Made me do a double take, but if you rewound, and listened closely, he was talking about working out in the offseason, not about the court. Now, you can still make the argument that his play spoke for itself wrt/ this matter....


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> *I also call going out there and looking for just your stats "dogging it" (though he was sick) cuz he*


C'mon, buddy all you have to do is go to NBA.com, Vince Carter Bio. Look at his stats last year for the Raptors:

04-05 TOR 20 20 30.4 .411 .322 .694 1.4 1.9 3.3 3.1 1.25 .75 1.10 2.80 15.9

Here's a complete link:

Proof Vince dogged it. 

How about at least knowing what you're talking about before 'calling out' for people to look for stats to prove what is obvious to any semi-regular NBA follower.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

shookem said:


> C'mon, buddy all you have to do is go to NBA.com, Vince Carter Bio. Look at his stats last year for the Raptors:
> 
> 04-05 TOR 20 20 30.4 .411 .322 .694 1.4 1.9 3.3 3.1 1.25 .75 1.10 2.80 15.9
> 
> ...



but he only averaged 30 minutes a game..... if he played 5 more minutes.. he would've at least averaged 4 more points...Even when the season started.. they said that vince is messing up the rotation.... so they decided to bench him ( Sam mitchell)... and obviously if you bench your best player.. he wont produce as he used to.. because he is playing less minutes


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

shookem said:


> C'mon, buddy all you have to do is go to NBA.com, Vince Carter Bio. Look at his stats last year for the Raptors:
> 
> 04-05 TOR 20 20 30.4 .411 .322 .694 1.4 1.9 3.3 3.1 1.25 .75 1.10 2.80 15.9
> 
> ...



I just looked at his Bio... when did he Dogg it? his 2003-2004 season stats looks pretty good to me....


03-04 TOR 73 73 38.2 .417 .383 .806 1.3 3.5 4.8 4.8 1.21 .89 3.05 2.90 22.5 

he is averaging more assists than he is now...,his Fg% wasn't good but he still shot good from 3pt line and from free-throw line...those number doesn't show at all that he dogged it....You guys just created that up....

and Vince did have a plan to fix his situation in Toronto and he was going to give that plan To Mitchell... but he got traded before he got the chance.....


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> but he only averaged 30 minutes a game..... if he played 5 more minutes.. he would've at least averaged 4 more points...Even when the season started.. they said that vince is messing up the rotation.... so they decided to bench him ( Sam mitchell)... and obviously if you bench your best player.. he wont produce as he used to.. because he is playing less minutes



right, but it's the other way around, players play their way onto the bench. why would mitchell bench a player that produced? he didn't, look at the %'s, they're low. he was benched because he didn't bring what other players on the Raptors could bring into a game. Plus, offense is one thing, his D on TO last year was disgusting.

Vince had as much of a shot at minutes as any other player at the begining of the season. If anything he'd have gotten more, in an attempt to showcase him.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> I just looked at his Bio... when did he Dogg it? his 2003-2004 season stats looks pretty good to me....
> 
> 
> 03-04 TOR 73 73 38.2 .417 .383 .806 1.3 3.5 4.8 4.8 1.21 .89 3.05 2.90 22.5
> ...


Seriously dude, do you eat paint chips?

Nobody is questioning anything Vince did up to the last season on the court. try to follow along here.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

shookem said:


> Seriously dude, do you eat paint chips?
> 
> Nobody is questioning anything Vince did up to the last season on the court. try to follow along here.




i wasn't answering specifically, i wasn't trying to answer many raptors fna that say Vince has dogged it for year.. he hasn't and the only reason his stats were low at the begining of last year is because he was benched... I have Raptors Nba tv.... when they put game in an hour of last year's games.... evertime i watch one of those games... i see vince benched.. untill the fourth quarter he comes. and he wins the game.... i saw like 3 or 4 games like that.... portland..clevland...


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## AIFAN3 (Sep 17, 2005)

I think the blame has to go equally between vince and the toronto organization. If u look at things from a players point of view i understand why vince wanted to be traded and i don't blame him. The whole reason why you play a sport is for the love of the sport and the main reason which is *WINNING*. Unlike Duncan which i saw someone refer to earlier Vince was not in a winning situation. Duncan had the pieces to win and probably that is the main reason he resigned with the spurs. This is the main reason why players demand trades is if they feel the franchise is in a rebuild mood and is looking to go in another direction ( the only exception being Shaq and Artest) and this is the reason why players like Kidd,Tmac and Vince demanded trades. From a fan point of view of course it is going to look as if the player bailed on a team and it isn't wrong for a fan to feel that way but the fact is the you must also be objective and put yourself in the players shoes. As in the case with Vince, Toronto was in full rebuild mode changing coaches and gms faster than ever and signing all those 10 day contracts.

But doing what vince did and going to the media only made the situation worse and that is what ultimately screwed over the franchise not that he demanded the trade but the way he went about it


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## sjinto (Oct 7, 2005)

This Poll is bound give screwed up results...

The title of the thread is:

Can You Really Blame Vince?... the question on the poll is 

Was Vince's Trade Demand Reasonable?

I voted No :biggrin:


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Players get paid to play, not to ***** to the media about demanding a trade. If EVERYBODY wanted to play for a winnng team, why do we even have teams like Atlanta and Toronto?


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

WTChan said:


> Players get paid to play, not to ***** to the media about demanding a trade. If EVERYBODY wanted to play for a winnng team, why do we even have teams like Atlanta and Toronto?


its within every players right to demand a trade if they feel that the orginization just gave up on WINNING, which is exactly what toronto did once they went into rebuilding mode around a younger player in chris bosh. HOW THE **** whould you feel????????????


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

mjm1 said:


> its within every players right to demand a trade if they feel that the orginization just gave up on WINNING, which is exactly what toronto did once they went into rebuilding mode around a younger player in chris bosh. HOW THE **** whould you feel????????????


plenty of good players have had to deal with rebuilding teams, and the professional ones don't wine about it.


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

shookem said:


> plenty of good players have had to deal with rebuilding teams, and the professional ones don't wine about it.


he by no means whined. he professionally demanded a trade.


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## kindred (Dec 26, 2004)

the only thing i blame on him is the way he got those big contracts for his pal jerome williams and alvin williams......those contracts are some serious burden on this toronto franchise


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## AIFAN3 (Sep 17, 2005)

WTChan said:


> Players get paid to play, not to ***** to the media about demanding a trade. If EVERYBODY wanted to play for a winnng team, why do we even have teams like Atlanta and Toronto?


You seem to disregard the AGE factor? At the time Carter demanded his trade he was in the prime of his career so was the situation when Kidd demanded his trade. Players want to win a championship. That is why they're in the league. At some point a player or superstar must no when he has to move on and go on to a team that is in a win now situation. Regardless Toronto was in a rebuild mood for the future and letting vince go was the only option (and the best choice at the time) to make sure they were in that full on rebuild mood. 

And btw the reason they're teams like Altanta and Toronto is that it takes time for players to develop and both are primarily young teams with young cores building towards the futur


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> Haha! well said, beside Vince demanded the trade in the offseason....so go ask Rob why he didn't deal him at that moment?
> 
> Vince Carter is not the first one to ask to be traded publically and won't be the last one. He wanted a better situation away from Toronto and got his wish but it was just too late for Bobcocks to pull the trigger. Thats why i blame Rob and i think all raps fans should too if you're being real. Raps could've gotten some better players in return for Carter if he was traded in the offseason....Keyword: Offseason.


I think you are forgetting that Rob Babcock was appointed as GM a couple of weeks before the draft. He's not a miracle worker.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

When you look at the VC deal, compare it to others of similar ilk. What did Sheed and B Davis get for their teams?

Answer: Caproom.

Toronto has Jalen till 07 so expiring contracts for VC would not create immediate caproom. And even if you could move Jalen with VC for caproom, who would come?

So, Babcock recognises this and says our target date for being competetitve is whenever Jalen gets off the books which may be 07 if there is no trade before then.

In exchange for taking crap that expires in line with Jalen, we get essentially Joey Graham, and with Denver in free fall, potentially a lottery pick this year to go with our own.

Was it right for VC to do it no. Can you blame him? Yes because one should expect better. BUT, he was spoiled rotten here. When the spoiling stopped with the Babcock hiring, ownership should have seen the writing on the wall and dealt him at the 2004 draft for max value. I saw it but the close relationship they had with him prevented a pre-emptive move.


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

Slade said:


> So what your saying is you can slack off and decrease your trade value after you publicly demand a trade???


Nope. That's far from what I'm saying. What I mean is,you have people here calling Vince ''lazy'' and obviously they have that 15ppg average in their heads when they say that. And that ppg average has no relevance in this thread.

We're talking,before the trade demand,can we blame him. And before the trade demand,Vince was still that 22ppg guy. So to call him lazy for a performance that came after what is being discussed in this thread is inadmissible.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

VCFSO2000 said:


> Nope. That's far from what I'm saying. What I mean is,you have people here calling Vince ''lazy'' and obviously they have that 15ppg average in their heads when they say that. And that ppg average has no relevance in this thread.
> 
> We're talking,before the trade demand,can we blame him. And before the trade demand,Vince was still that 22ppg guy. So to call him lazy for a performance that came after what is being discussed in this thread is inadmissible.


Why are we talking about before the trade demand? After he made the demand, he was dogging it which didn't make things any easier for himself or Raptors management. His play in the early part of last season put the Raptors in a very tough position, which made his trade demand even more unreasonable.


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

Turkish Delight said:


> Why are we talking about before the trade demand? After he made the demand, he was dogging it which didn't make things any easier for himself or Raptors management. His play in the early part of last season put the Raptors in a very tough position, which made his trade demand even more unreasonable.


I'm sorry but his play after the trade demand has no relevance in the discussion. This is just your hatred for VC popping up.

Why would it be relevant? 

A woman is repetitively beaten by her husband...Can you blame her for wanting to leave?Oh but..Before she left,she stuck around,and one day,she shot her husband in the leg.

''Can you blame her for wanting to leave?''

''No..And the fact that she shot him afterwards makes it even more unreasonable''

Now tell me if this entire sequence makes sense.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Turkish Delight said:


> Why are we talking about before the trade demand? After he made the demand, he was dogging it which didn't make things any easier for himself or Raptors management. His play in the early part of last season put the Raptors in a very tough position, which made his trade demand even more unreasonable.


What makes you believe he was dogging it?

I think it all has to do with Sam coaching system for playing the bench heavy minutes, and didn't he himself said that he'd stop doing that this season?

He would take Vince Carter out in the 1st quartar even if he was hot (couple of games where Carter had 14-16 points in the 1st) and won't put him back in till the last 2 minutes of the 2nd quartar. And i've watched all of those 20 raps games in that season.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

VCFSO2000 said:


> I'm sorry but his play after the trade demand has no relevance in the discussion. This is just your hatred for VC popping up.
> 
> Why would it be relevant?
> 
> ...


I'm not even going to pretend to relate the point you just made, because it doesn't relate to Vince's trade demand in any way.

All I'm saying is Vince Carter's trade demand would have been more reasonable if he actually played up to his ability, and gave the Raptors a chance to get close to equal value in return. First he made the trade demand public, and then he dogged it on the court which left Rob Babcock and company with their hands tied.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> What makes you believe he was dogging it?
> 
> I think it all has to do with Sam coaching system for playing the bench heavy minutes, and didn't he himself said that he'd stop doing that this season?
> 
> He would take Vince Carter out in the 1st quartar even if he was hot (couple of games where Carter had 14-16 points in the 1st) and won't put him back in till the last 2 minutes of the 2nd quartar. And i've watched all of those 20 raps games in that season.


I also watched all those games, and to tell you the truth I don't remember that hapenning. Both Vince Carter and Jalen Rose didn't play much in crunch time, but it was well deserved. By looking at their numbers early on in the season, you know they weren't playing up to their ability. Not only on the offensive end, but especially on the defensive end. Once Vince was moved, Jalen started to play better and subsequently, his minutes increased. I highly doubt Sam Mitchell was out to get Vince Carter. He was just giving playing time to the individuals who deserved it, quite frankly.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

I would post in this thread if there wasn't so many Carter-homers in it. I mean, c'mon, justifying public trades? Gimme a break. I love Jason Kidd to death as a player but even I lost some respect for him after he rumblings of him wanting out of New Jersey came out in public.


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## AIFAN3 (Sep 17, 2005)

theres plenty of Raptor Homers in here also too so feel free to post! :banana:


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

trick said:


> I would post in this thread if there wasn't so many Carter-homers in it. I mean, c'mon, justifying public trades? Gimme a break. I love Jason Kidd to death as a player but even I lost some respect for him after he rumblings of him wanting out of New Jersey came out in public.


he never publicly demanded a trade, NEVER. They had just traded away 2/3 of the team including Kenyon Martin and Kerry Kittles when he made those comments privately!!! Seriously, how the **** whould you feel??????????????????


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

AIFAN3 said:


> theres plenty of Raptor Homers in here also too so feel free to post! :banana:


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

mjm1 said:


> he never publicly demanded a trade, NEVER. They had just traded away 2/3 of the team!!!


I never said he publicly demanded a trade. What I meant was that his displeasure with the organization came out in the papers (hence what I meant by "rumblings coming out onto the public"). Whether it's true or not is not the case here, but the "Kidd wants out of Jersey" was a hot story for some time a couple of years ago.


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

Turkish Delight said:


> I'm not even going to pretend to relate the point you just made, because it doesn't relate to Vince's trade demand in any way.
> 
> All I'm saying is Vince Carter's trade demand would have been more reasonable if he actually played up to his ability, and gave the Raptors a chance to get close to equal value in return. First he made the trade demand public, and then he dogged it on the court which left Rob Babcock and company with their hands tied.


What he did after the trade demand has no relevance I tell you. 

He made a decision,which was the trade demand.

When you make a decsion,especially one of this magnitude,you have to consider things.

The things that you considered dictate whether the decision you will make is reasonable or not,not what happens after your decision has been made. Don't get me wrong,Carter played like crap for the raptors after he asked to be traded. But it has no relevance pertaining to the thread subject.

What did consider before making his decision? A LOT OF THINGS. Such as ''Hmm...I'm an injury-prone athlete who might who's nearing the the end of his prime and I got this franchise on my shoulders who change coaches like they change underwear,and I'm not sure they know where they're going. And I have this management dude who promised me I had a say in certain decisions who stabbed me in the back''

Would you want to stay in town considering all those things?I wouldn't. Don't get me wrong,I hate it when players have a say in managerial decisions,but if you promised him that,you better deliver.


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

trick said:


> I would post in this thread if there wasn't so many Carter-homers in it. I mean, c'mon, justifying public trades? Gimme a break. I love Jason Kidd to death as a player but even I lost some respect for him after he rumblings of him wanting out of New Jersey came out in public.


Vince Carter or not,public trade demands don't annoy me. Holdouts p*** me off,though.

A public trade demand is just a tactic to put pressure on the organization to ship you out. Oh well,you want to get something done,you have to get your hands dirty.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Air Fly said:


> Well then, blame half of the players in the league including Shaq (next Artest) who even had a say on where to be traded.


Ok!

They are just as unprofessional and classless as Carter.


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> Ok!
> 
> They are just as unprofessional and classless as Carter.


Please do not attack other posters.* This is a violation of our terms of service. Thanks.

- *Premier*

*...and a community moderator at that.


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## AIFAN3 (Sep 17, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> Ok!
> 
> They are just as *unprofessional* and *classless * as Carter.


I think it is classless and unprofessional to go public with a trade demand. But to demand one isn't really classeless or unprofessional from a players standpoint IF you want to win (the only exceptions being shaq and artest who wanted to be traded for other reasons they are the real classless ones)


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> Ok!
> 
> They are just as unprofessional and classless as Carter.


Malcolm X once said ressembling ''A man's good deeds far outweigh his shortcomings..''

And to call VC classless is to insult raptor fans because for 6,7 years,they were in love with this man. 

I think raptor fans are smart enough not to fall in love with some ''classless'' guy.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

mjm1 said:


> Please do not attack other posters.* This is a violation of our terms of service. Thanks.
> 
> - *Premier*
> 
> *...and a community moderator at that.


You're right. I guess we should agree with you since you obviously know Vince Carter a lot better than any of us.


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

Turkish Delight said:


> You're right. I guess we should agree with you since you obviously know Vince Carter a lot better than any of us.


i never said this, i merely said you cannot make a fair judgement on an individual unless YOU ****ING KNOW HIM. Obviously, none of you know anything about his offcourt contributions to the community, for he is considered ONE of the most generous players in the NBA.


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

Come to think of it,here's a question:

If the star player from your team demande a trade,but it was behind closed doors. Not one fan was aware of it. ut when the team ships him out,and reporters like ''apparently he had demanded a trade back in....'' Would you respect him for not going public or would you be like ''Tht **** couldn't tell us that to our faces?''

Please,give an honest answer.

This is not to defend Vince. As trade demands from anybody don't affect me. But to say a public trade is classless,while IMO,going to the owner and not facing your fans is what lacks guts and is classless.

IMO


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

AIFAN3 said:


> I think it is classless and unprofessional to go public with a trade demand. But to demand one isn't really classeless or unprofessional from a players standpoint IF you want to win (the only exceptions being shaq and artest who wanted to be traded for other reasons they are the real classless ones)


He shouldn't of signed the contract if he felt the team wasn't going to compete. Someone else said it in this thread, Duncan only signed for 3 years since the team was fresh off a first round exit, had Robinson on the verge of retirement and Avery Johnson and Mario Elie as starters.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

mjm1 said:


> i never said this, i merely said you cannot make a fair judgement on an individual unless YOU ****ING KNOW HIM. Obviously, none of you know anything about his offcourt contributions to the community, for he is considered ONE of the most generous players in the NBA.


And would you use the same logic and arguement to defend Mourning?

-Petey


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

Petey said:


> And would you use the same logic and arguement to defend Mourning?
> 
> -Petey


damn you petey lol. Off the court...nevermind Zo is just crazy.


----------



## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

VCFSO2000 said:


> Come to think of it,here's a question:
> 
> If the star player from your team demande a trade,but it was behind closed doors. Not one fan was aware of it. ut when the team ships him out,and reporters like ''apparently he had demanded a trade back in....'' Would you respect him for not going public or would you be like ''Tht **** couldn't tell us that to our faces?''
> 
> ...


Ah... what about the concept of a contract; honoring a contract from the players and owners prespective don't you understand?

-Petey


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## AIFAN3 (Sep 17, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> He shouldn't of signed the contract if he felt the team wasn't going to compete. Someone else said it in this thread, Duncan only signed for 3 years since the team was fresh off a first round exit, had Robinson on the verge of retirement and Avery Johnson and Mario Elie as starters.


You can't compare Duncans situation to vince's. Duncan team was a bunch of veterans who knew how to win and what it took to get there. Carters team was a bunch of rooks and inexperienced players,nbdl projects and hoffa that the organization tried to put together to form a team and it wasn't working. Not only were the players young but so was the coach was young and was inexperienced this showed that the raptors were in total rebuild mood unlike the duncan situation.


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

Petey said:


> Ah... what about the concept of a contract; honoring a contract from the players and owners prespective don't you understand?
> 
> -Petey


I'm sorry...But I don't understand the point of your post.

The post to which you chose to reply is me asking which form of a trade demand would you prefer. 
I don't see how your post relates to mine.

If you could please explain to me,I would surely appreciate it.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

VCFSO2000 said:


> I'm sorry...But I don't understand the point of your post.
> 
> The post to which you chose to reply is me asking which form of a trade demand would you prefer.
> I don't see how your post relates to mine.
> ...


 Players are paid to play, and entertain. There is nothing written into NBA contracts that stipulate you can request trades in public or private if things don't go your way. So I'd perfer no trade requests, and to have players go about their jobs with some professionalism. 

You seem to think a player has the right to demand a trade.

Care to answer my post / questions?

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

AIFAN3 said:


> You can't compare Duncans situation to vince's. Duncan team was a bunch of veterans who knew how to win and what it took to get there. Carters team was a bunch of rooks and inexperienced players,nbdl projects and hoffa that the organization tried to put together to form a team and it wasn't working. Not only were the players young but so was the coach was young and was inexperienced this showed that the raptors were in total rebuild mood unlike the duncan situation.


You certainly can compare Duncan's situation with Carter's, Artest's, McGrady's and everyone else.

Did they all not sign their name to a contract that they would play and represent a team over X number of years?

-Petey


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

Petey said:


> Players are paid to play, and entertain. There is nothing written into NBA contracts that stipulate you can request trades in public or private if things don't go your way. So I'd perfer no trade requests, and to have players go about their jobs with some professionalism.
> 
> You seem to think a player has the right to demand a trade.
> 
> ...


I don't seem to think players have a right to demand a trade. I just assume it because it's done so frequently throughout sports.

I'm not debating whether or not asking a for a trade is ''classless'' or whatever adjective you wish to attach to that sort of behavior. I just came in this thread answering the threadstarter's question.

I answered without contemplating whether or not it's a classless move to ask for a trade. I just analyzed Vince's situation,mental and physical state and answered.

Why didn't I consider whether or not asking for a trade is classless?Because one of the many things I've learned while following the business of sports,is that trends,are bitterly swallowed when it is first installed,then become accepted through time.

Trade demands is just another one of those.

How many people were bitter when A-Rrod got that huge contract?A LOT.Contracts have risen to ridiculous heights but we've gotten use to it.Shaq gets a 30 million dollar a year contract and we don't start a riot. Why? Because we've gotten use to it. In hockey,where players went to arbitration to demand a certain amount of money for their play. Isn't that classless?It might've been perceived that way when that form of business and negotiation was first installed,but now it's a normal occurence.

All I'm saying,is,I answered the threadstarter's question,without asking myself ''Well..Isn't asking for a trade classless in the first place?''...I just answered it.

And before you call trade demands classless or whatever you want to call it,why don't you contemplate all those sports trends that you angered you at first,but you accepted with time.

Trade demands are classless?All right. If you say so. They don't anger me because I know they'll become rampant and normal,soon. I'm just hopping on the boat now instead of getting angry at it for no reason.


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

Some people act like just cause this guys are making millions they somehow should be judged differently than others....bottom line is this guys are still human....if I werent happy with a situation I am in wouldnt it make sense for me to look for something better...

And why do people act like the Raptors didnt make money of Vince...they paid him millions but compared to what he did for that franchise that should be meager to the amount he was making....I agree with VCFSO2000, what makes someone who goes behind to ask for a trade any better than one who does it in public....

I dont even have a problem with those who are bashing Vince its expected...but if you call Vince names please do the same to Shaq, Baron, Tmac, Ron, Kidd and all other 'superstars' who wanted out of situations they werent comfortable in...


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

VCFSO2000 said:


> I don't seem to think players have a right to demand a trade. I just assume it because it's done so frequently throughout sports.
> 
> I'm not debating whether or not asking a for a trade is ''classless'' or whatever adjective you wish to attach to that sort of behavior. I just came in this thread answering the threadstarter's question.
> 
> ...


You're comparing apples and oranges again. Baseball Players' Union >>> Basketball's Players' Union. When the baseball players went on strike they took the power from the owners. The NBA locked out their players to take control of the players. They collective bargaining agreements are written up totally different, why I made reference to basketball contracts. In baseball contracts there is language that often allows a player to request a trade, if not traded he would become a free agent. There is often language that would allow a player to block a trade. So lets compare a sport that at times allows players the right to demand and stop trades to a sport that has NOTHING of the sort built into their CBA or contracts?

Why not associate it with the unguaranteed contracts of the NFL? 

And because you feel the classless actions may one day lead to be the norm that makes it ok? Hey your life, but I don't think most people see things that way. 

-Petey


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

Petey said:


> You're comparing apples and oranges again. Baseball Players' Union >>> Basketball's Players' Union. When the baseball players went on strike they took the power from the owners. The NBA locked out their players to take control of the players. They collective bargaining agreements are written up totally different, why I made reference to basketball contracts. In baseball contracts there is language that often allows a player to request a trade, if not traded he would become a free agent. There is often language that would allow a player to block a trade. So lets compare a sport that at times allows players the right to demand and stop trades to a sport that has NOTHING of the sort built into their CBA or contracts?
> 
> Why not associate it with the unguaranteed contracts of the NFL?
> 
> ...


I wasn't trying to compare different sports. I was merely indicating the major economic changes that many sports have had to make throughout the years and how,it may have been negatively viewed by certain fans,it became normal.

I don't feel the ''classless actions may one day lead to be the norm'' because I don't think they're classless to begin with. They're startling events that lead to new eras and a society's evolution.
Me telling you to accept this reality of players demanding trades is useless as I can see you are strongly against it.

I'm just saying,I'm already starting to live with it,because 5 years from now,it'll be normal.
I'm just accepting that reality now. Saving some ''complaining'' time...


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

VCFSO2000 said:


> I wasn't trying to compare different sports. I was merely indicating the major economic changes that many sports have had to make throughout the years and how,it may have been negatively viewed by certain fans,it became normal.
> 
> I don't feel the ''classless actions may one day lead to be the norm'' because I don't think they're classless to begin with. They're startling events that lead to new eras and a society's evolution.
> Me telling you to accept this reality of players demanding trades is useless as I can see you are strongly against it.
> ...


What are some other major economical changes in sports would you compare to this?

I've seen several people compare players to those with normal jobs looking for something better. Contracts that provide security are not something afforded to many in the business world. With that, won't you hold player to that or at least to higher standards? A contract will even pay someone when someone is unable to perform. Something very rarely provided in other professions over such lengthy times.

Overall this makes a great arguement for why football has a better system than other major sports.

-Petey


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Raptors fans: please disregard all of mjm1's posts, as he will disregard yours the same.

Anywho, back on topic. I feel that Vince's trade demand was unjustified. As a Raptors fan, obviously I feel backstabbed by the way he played in the time leading up to, and after, his trade demand. No denying there. I am a Raptors fan. I feel betrayed. You want to use that against me? Whatever, here's a cookie.

Here is the main reason: ask any Raptors fan, and they will be able to tell you just how many times Vince has stated in the past that he has something to prove, that he will make the doubters pay, that he will come out stronger than ever, whatever along those lines. Well, they might have lost count acutally, but the fact remains that he said those things more than enough times. So why actually live up to his word once he gets traded? That doesn't make you feel good, that makes you feel betrayed.

Vince had become a jump shooter primarily in Toronto. It's not that he stopped dunking, it's that he stopped being aggressive altogether. It came to a point where a lay-up or even a mid-range floater was rare for Vince. So why start when he gets the boot from Toronto? Again, as a Raptors fan, that makes you feel betrayed.

When you draft to Vince's preferences (win now) and sign free agents to Vince's liking (win now), and sign Vince to a $90+ million contract, which in turn end up screwing over the team, and then Vince demands a trade midway through his contract, AS A RAPTORS FAN, THAT MAKES YOU FEEL BETRAYED.

Matter of fact, I'm guessing that would leave most reasonable fans feeling insulted. Just think if a player on your team did that... how would you feel?

Either way, in the end, it comes down to whoever's a fan of the player or whoever's a fan of the team. Fans of Vince Carter, the player, are obviously, for the most part, stick to Vince's side. Fans of the Toronto Raptors, the team, are obviously, for the most part, stick to the Raptors' side. And that's the end of that.


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

Petey said:


> What are some other major economical changes in sports would you compare to this?
> 
> I've seen several people compare players to those with normal jobs looking for something better. Contracts that provide security are not something afforded to many in the business world. With that, won't you hold player to that or at least to higher standards? A contract will even pay someone when someone is unable to perform. Something very rarely provided in other professions over such lengthy times.
> 
> ...


Well,I've said everything I needed to say pertaining to this little debate of ours.(I'm not sure you have,you're always loaded with arguments lol)

Before bowing out,I'd just like to say that it was fun debating with you and that your sharp debating skills challenge anybody on this site to bring it when it comes to squaring off with Petey. I commend you for it.


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Raptors fans: please disregard all of mjm1's posts, as he will disregard yours the same.
> 
> Anywho, back on topic. I feel that Vince's trade demand was unjustified. As a Raptors fan, obviously I feel backstabbed by the way he played in the time leading up to, and after, his trade demand. No denying there. I am a Raptors fan. I feel betrayed. You want to use that against me? Whatever, here's a cookie.
> 
> ...


I apologize to you sir, i never stopped to look at it like that.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

AIFAN3 said:


> You can't compare Duncans situation to vince's. Duncan team was a bunch of veterans who knew how to win and what it took to get there. Carters team was a bunch of rooks and inexperienced players,nbdl projects and hoffa that the organization tried to put together to form a team and it wasn't working. Not only were the players young but so was the coach was young and was inexperienced this showed that the raptors were in total rebuild mood unlike the duncan situation.


So lets assume the Nets are a losing team, and Antoine Wright turns in into a superstar but the team still loses; he signs his 90million extention and then demands a trade to a better team. Is that ok? Should star players on losing teams have the right to demand trades? Would you be ok with it if Wright signed the extension and then demanded a trade?


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

osman said:


> So lets assume the Nets are a losing team, and Antoine Wright turns in into a superstar but the team still loses; he signs his 90million extention and then demands a trade to a better team. Is that ok? Should star players on losing teams have the right to demand trades? Would you be ok with it if Wright signed the extension and then demanded a trade?


LOL, the dude would love your little scenario, he's a 76ers fan.

-Petey


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

Petey said:


> LOL, the dude would love your little scenario, he's a 76ers fan.
> 
> -Petey


lol, either way, the 76ers were a losing team at one point in time, and I doubt he would be ok with it had Iverson demanded a trade when the team was losing. The NBA needs to punish players for such acts. If all star players on losing teams demanded trades, what would the league come to? Why not just do the draft lottery the opposite way. Give the best team in the league the 1st lottery pick so that star player does not have to play on a crappy team.


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

osman said:


> lol, either way, the 76ers were a losing team at one point in time, and I doubt he would be ok with it had Iverson demanded a trade when the team was losing. The NBA needs to punish players for such acts. If all star players on losing teams demanded trades, what would the league come to? Why not just do the draft lottery the opposite way. Give the best team in the league the 1st lottery pick so that star player does not have to play on a crappy team.


How about I ask you this...is it alright for those 'losing' teams to continually find ways to stay uncompetitive either through bad management or bad decisions and the like....someone said Duncan's situation is comparable to Vince's, Tmac and the likes...very funny Haha..the spurs are known as the class of the NBA, everything about the organization shows a desire to excel...the same can not be said for the raptors...


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

It all comes down to your approval of trade demands. I don't believe trade demands are professional, because the player signed the contract, and he's trying to speak out against it. No part of a player's contract says anything about winning (as far as I know). It's the honor system- you sign a contract, you play it out. If you think trade demands are justfied by staff changes, poor management, poor record, that's what you think. I believe demanding a trade is like quitting a team. And that's why I hate Vince Carter, and that's why I respect Kevin Garnett.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

TheGrowth said:


> How about I ask you this...is it alright for those 'losing' teams to continually find ways to stay uncompetitive either through bad management or bad decisions and the like....someone said Duncan's situation is comparable to Vince's, Tmac and the likes...very funny Haha..the spurs are known as the class of the NBA, everything about the organization shows a desire to excel...the same can not be said for the raptors...


So then if the Raptors suck why did Carter sign a 90million extension with the Raptors????? Why did he not leave as a free agent???? Tell me genius?


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

TheGrowth said:


> How about I ask you this...is it alright for those 'losing' teams to continually find ways to stay uncompetitive either through bad management or bad decisions and the like....someone said Duncan's situation is comparable to Vince's, Tmac and the likes...very funny Haha..the spurs are known as the class of the NBA, everything about the organization shows a desire to excel...the same can not be said for the raptors...


I said they are the same, because they are. They signed to play with a team. Duncan took less from the Spurs when he first was a FA so he can control his destiny.

Anyone force McGrady, Carter, Artest to sign the deals they did?

-Petey


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

WTChan said:


> It all comes down to your approval of trade demands. I don't believe trade demands are professional, because the player signed the contract, and he's trying to speak out against it. No part of a player's contract says anything about winning (as far as I know). It's the honor system- you sign a contract, you play it out. If you think trade demands are justfied by staff changes, poor management, poor record, that's what you think. I believe demanding a trade is like quitting a team. And that's why I hate Vince Carter, and that's why I respect Kevin Garnett.




So you would like a player to demand a trade secretly rather than Publicly?....I am with you that a player signed a contract .. he should play it out.... but Imagine this.... and let me tell you something before... Money Doesn't buy happiness.....Vince was just emotionaly not happy in toronto... imagine u hv to work... but u hate ur job.... u will keep working untill one day u say f'''' it.... it's the same thing... Fortunately... there's Trades in the Nba.. whereas in the work field.. u loose ur job... ( or u accumulate enough money to start your own company).. i know **** load of people that have quited their jobs because they hated it....


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

VC_15 said:


> So you would like a player to demand a trade secretly rather than Publicly?....I am with you that a player signed a contract .. he should play it out.... but Imagine this.... and let me tell you something before... Money Doesn't buy happiness.....Vince was just emotionaly not happy in toronto... imagine u hv to work... but u hate ur job.... u will keep working untill one day u say f'''' it.... it's the same thing... Fortunately... there's Trades in the Nba.. whereas in the work field.. u loose ur job... ( or u accumulate enough money to start your own company).. i know **** load of people that have quited their jobs because they hated it....


There is always the option to retire. Won't play, won't get paid.

-Petey


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

osman said:


> So then if the Raptors suck why did Carter sign a 90million extension with the Raptors????? Why did he not leave as a free agent???? Tell me genius?


LMAO the raptors dont suck..the management is just plain terrible...at the point when Vince signed that extension the raptors were showing a lot of promise...put it this way if Vince hadnt signed with the raps who knows if the team might even be in existence cause clearly that was the high point of Vinsanity...raptors management had seen their cash cow and werent about to let him go....




> Anyone force McGrady, Carter, Artest to sign the deals they did?


Of course not, I also dont see any part of contracts that states a player cannot voice his concerns if the situation isnt right for him...ever heard of slavery


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

Petey said:


> There is always the option to retire. Won't play, won't get paid.
> 
> -Petey


I am sure your bosses love you...after all they know whatever goes down you will always stick with the organization...even if its not to your taste...


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

WTChan said:


> It all comes down to your approval of trade demands. I don't believe trade demands are professional, because the player signed the contract, and he's trying to speak out against it. No part of a player's contract says anything about winning (as far as I know). It's the honor system- you sign a contract, you play it out. If you think trade demands are justfied by staff changes, poor management, poor record, that's what you think. I believe demanding a trade is like quitting a team. And that's why I hate Vince Carter, and that's why I respect Kevin Garnett.


You must have quite a few famous people on your hate list....


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Petey said:


> There is always the option to retire. Won't play, won't get paid.
> 
> -Petey




but when you have the option to get traded? why would u not play in a different situation if your happy?


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

WTChan said:


> It all comes down to your approval of trade demands. I don't believe trade demands are professional, because the player signed the contract, and he's trying to speak out against it. No part of a player's contract says anything about winning (as far as I know). It's the honor system- you sign a contract, you play it out. If you think trade demands are justfied by staff changes, poor management, poor record, that's what you think. I believe demanding a trade is like quitting a team. And that's why I hate Vince Carter, and *that's why I respect Kevin Garnett.*


come back in one month.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

TheGrowth said:


> I am sure your bosses love you...after all they know whatever goes down you will always stick with the organization...even if its not to your taste...



He has the option to quit or do his job as he agreed to do when he signed his contract, he does not have the option to tell his company find him a better company with the same salary.


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## Whack Arnolds (Dec 5, 2005)

Does VC have the right to WANT to be traded? Sure...
Should he have come out public with it? No...
Does he have the right to complain b/c mangement isn't building the team the way he wants it? Hell No.., it isn't VC's job to manage or consult on team decisions. That's the GM's job.
Is it right that VC stopped playing and giving full effort in order to be Traded? Of course not, VC is a pansy.


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

Whack Arnolds said:


> Does VC have the right to WANT to be traded? Sure...
> Should he have come out public with it? No...
> Does he have the right to complain b/c mangement isn't building the team the way he wants it? Hell No.., it isn't VC's job to manage or consult on team decisions. That's the GM's job.
> Is it right that VC stopped playing and giving full effort in order to be Traded? Of course not, VC is a pansy.


how would you like it if i called you a pansy???


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## Whack Arnolds (Dec 5, 2005)

mjm1 said:


> how would you like it if i called you a pansy???


If I was a quiter, I would hope you would call me a pansy. Especially if I was as ball-less to not play b/c I was upset with the current happenings with my team or co-workers. Vince Carter had a quarter of a season long pout session. It was pathetic.


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

Whack Arnolds said:


> If I was a quiter, I would hope you would call me a pansy. Especially if I was as ball-less to not play b/c I was upset with the current happenings with my team or co-workers. Vince Carter had a quarter of a season long pout session. It was pathetic.


he was injured for 10 of those 23 games. came back in new jersey averaged 27.6 points, 7 rebounds, and 6.5 points in 59 games.


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

mjm1 said:


> he was injured for 10 of those 23 games. came back in new jersey averaged 27.6 points, 7 rebounds, and 6.5 points in 59 games.


 
Ok explain the other 13 games....................and go..............


PANSY


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> Ok explain the other 13 games....................and go..............
> 
> 
> PANSY


you are going TO JUDGE someone on 13 games who was upset with his orginzation at the time? Sometimes you gotta go your seperate ways. No one stays with the same team throughout their entire career (excluding Duncan and Miller). Players leave, usually on bad terms.


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## Whack Arnolds (Dec 5, 2005)

mjm1 said:


> he was injured for 10 of those 23 games. came back in new jersey averaged 27.6 points, 7 rebounds, and 6.5 points in 59 games.


I saw what he did when he played for NJ. He got traded, and then decided to play. Yes he is a talented offensive player, but that was a completely pansy a$$ thing to do and even your blind loyalty towards VC should be able to admit that. He showed up, and punched his time clocl and didn't do anything until he pouted himself into a situation he wanted to be in. He was pathetic. And its the essence in which sports have become today. That's why its so refreshing to see glimmer of hopes like LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, etc.


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> Did you even read my post?
> 
> Was he dogging it during the offseason? I believe he did average 22.5 PPG just last season, so his value was still high until Sam screw it up.


NOPE


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

Whack Arnolds said:


> I saw what he did when he played for NJ. He got traded, and then decided to play. Yes he is a talented offensive player, but that was a completely pansy a$$ thing to do and even your blind loyalty towards VC should be able to admit that. He showed up, and punched his time clocl and didn't do anything until he pouted himself into a situation he wanted to be in. He was pathetic. And its the essence in which sports have become today. That's why its so refreshing to see glimmer of hopes like LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, etc.


WADE has SHAQ, MOURNING, HASLEM, POSEY, PEYTON, WILLIAMS, and WALKER. Look what team the raptors had built around carter in the last 2 seasons he played in toronto. management was a joke.


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## Whack Arnolds (Dec 5, 2005)

mjm1 said:


> you are going TO JUDGE someone on 13 games who was upset with his orginzation at the time? Sometimes you gotta go your seperate ways. No one stays with the same team throughout their entire career (excluding Duncan and Miller). Players leave, usually on bad terms.


Yeah, but staying with a team is one issue, playing and giving your all is another. You would have to be an ignorant fool to not understand that at some point in time every player wants to be traded from a team (Jordan included), but they kept quiet, kept it personal, and still played their heart out. A) Out of respect for the game B) Respect for themselves and C) Respect for the other guys he shares that locker room with. What VC did was a pu$$y kat thing to do. It's just a fact.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> So you would like a player to demand a trade secretly rather than Publicly?....I am with you that a player signed a contract .. he should play it out.... but Imagine this.... and let me tell you something before... Money Doesn't buy happiness.....Vince was just emotionaly not happy in toronto... imagine u hv to work... but u hate ur job.... u will keep working untill one day u say f'''' it.... it's the same thing... Fortunately... there's Trades in the Nba.. whereas in the work field.. u loose ur job... ( or u accumulate enough money to start your own company).. i know **** load of people that have quited their jobs because they hated it....





VC_15 said:


> but when you have the option to get traded? why would u not play in a different situation if your happy?


YOU (the player) don't have the option of getting traded. I can't stress this enough. THEY (management) have the option of trading you. That's the thing about professional sports. It's not like your regular hourly day job. Wanna quit? Too bad, you signed a contract. Not everyone wants to play for the teams they play for. That's something the player has to deal with. Request a trade? I'm okay with that. But the player has no right to put his foot down and demand a trade.



TheGrowth said:


> You must have quite a few famous people on your hate list....


Yep.



mjm1 said:


> come back in one month.


KG stayed with team, the good years, the bad years. He's never, ever asked for a trade. He plays with the same kind of intensity, contract year or not. Sure, he's demanded a lot of money in contract talks, but thats just (his agent) being a savvy businessman.


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## Whack Arnolds (Dec 5, 2005)

mjm1 said:


> WADE has SHAQ, MOURNING, HASLEM, POSEY, PEYTON, WILLIAMS, and WALKER. Look what team the raptors had built around carter in the last 2 seasons he played in toronto. management was a joke.


What's around you has nothing to do with giving effort. Wade would give effort no matter where he is. I don't see Nash quitting b/c Amare is injured. I don't see Kobe quitting b/c his teammates are some of the least talented people in the league, neither does Kirk Hinrich, or AK47, or Paul Pierce. Those players are still going out and putting it all on the line, whether their teammates suck or not. If anything you should give more when your teammates can't pick it up to your level. That's what LEADERS do. Something VC never has or will be. He doesn't have the heart to be a leader.


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

Whack Arnolds said:


> Yeah, but staying with a team is one issue, playing and giving your all is another. You would have to be an ignorant fool to not understand that at some point in time every player wants to be traded from a team (Jordan included), but they kept quiet, kept it personal, and still played their heart out. A) Out of respect for the game B) Respect for themselves and C) Respect for the other guys he shares that locker room with. What VC did was a pu$$y kat thing to do. It's just a fact.


carter played hard everytime he stepped onto the court. YOU ARE BASING EVERYTHING ON ONE HEAVILY HEAVILY EDITED INTERVIEW WITH ****ING TNT. lol


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> You said it yourself that many NBA players do that, so why only blame my boy Vince for wanting a better chance at winning a ring in the right situation?
> 
> Tmac asked to be traded from Orlanldo cuz he felt that team wasn't going anywhere, but i never hear any complains from fans (nba fans in general)?


I dont think I ever that many nba players demand trades. 

Your Boy Vince? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

I belive i said that i hate every NBA player who demands a trade, so ya when I said every that means Tracy too, but if you wanna hear it, Tracy McGrady is a bum


----------



## Whack Arnolds (Dec 5, 2005)

mjm1 said:


> carter played hard everytime he stepped onto the court. YOU ARE BASING EVERYTHING ON ONE HEAVILY HEAVILY EDITED INTERVIEW WITH ****ING TNT. lol


Im not just basing it off that, where the man himself admitted to it. But also by analyzation of his play, performance, stats and win-loss record. If you actually watched a game of his, you could see him dragging his feet and pouting like a 4 year old. Hell we know VC rarely gives effort on the defensive end, but he was pouting so much HE WASN'T even playing offense. That's when you know VC is pouting.


----------



## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

Whack Arnolds said:


> Im not just basing it off that, where the man himself admitted to it. But also by analyzation of his play, performance, stats and win-loss record. If you actually watched a game of his, you could see him dragging his feet and pouting like a 4 year old. Hell we know VC rarely gives effort on the defensive end, but he was pouting so much HE WASN'T even playing offense. That's when you know VC is pouting.


every person in this world deserves a second chance, and that includes carter.


----------



## Whack Arnolds (Dec 5, 2005)

mjm1 said:


> every person in this world deserves a second chance, and that includes carter.


Did I say he didn't deserve a second chance? Of course he does. But that doesn't negate the manhood less action he took in his remaining days in Toronto.


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

mjm1 said:


> you are going TO JUDGE someone on 13 games who was upset with his orginzation at the time? Sometimes you gotta go your seperate ways. No one stays with the same team throughout their entire career (excluding Duncan and Miller). Players leave, usually on bad terms.





> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=602 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=stitle width=39></TD><TD class=stitle></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To Clarify he played 20 games

And yes im going to judge him on those 20 games, because during those 20 games he screwed every fan that bought a ticket too see him play by "not giving it his all" in order to force his way out of Toronto. And thats just pathetic


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

..

Can I blame him for wanting out? No. Hell, I don't even really care about requesting a trade publicly. Happens all the time these days. But tanking on the court = lose all respect from me. And I have been a fan of Vince since Mainland HS.


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

mjm1 said:


> every person in this world deserves a second chance, and that includes carter.


People dont deserve second chances they have to earn a second chance,
I dont know how hes gonna do it but if Vince wants a second chance hes gonna have earn it from his fans


----------



## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> To Clarify he played 20 games
> 
> And yes im going to judge him on those 20 games, because during those 20 games he screwed every fan that bought a ticket too see him play by "not giving it his all" in order to force his way out of Toronto. And thats just pathetic


he played a full 8 minutes less in each of those 20 games. Took less shots but his field goal percentage remained the same. i didnt see him play, but when he got to nj he was injured.


----------



## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> People dont deserve second chances they have to earn a second chance,
> I dont know how hes gonna do it but if Vince wants a second chance hes gonna have earn it from his fans


hes averaging 35 points a game for the past 7 games and nearly 15 free throw atempts during this win streak. he's earned a second chance in my book as well as many other nets fans.


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

I'll bet anything that most of those 40 people who voted that Vince's demands out of Toronto were warented were not actually Raptors fans when he did it, and if a player on "thier" team had done the samething there opinions would change drasticly. Most of the people are probably just Vince Carter fans and there views of the situation is clouded by there love for Vince that they are ready to defend anything he did/does


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

mjm1 said:


> hes averaging 35 points a game for the past 7 games and nearly 15 free throw atempts during this win streak. he's earned a second chance in my book as well as many other nets fans.


Ya but he didnt quit on the nets (YET), when i said fans i meant Raptors fans i just thought that was implied


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> I'll bet anything that most of those 40 people who voted that Vince's demands out of Toronto were warented were not actually Raptors fans when he did it, and if a player on "thier" team had done the samething there opinions would change drasticly. Most of the people are probably just Vince Carter fans and there views of the situation is clouded by there love for Vince that they are ready to defend anything he did/does


i am a nets fan first, and as such can say that he has given a 125% for my team in each of the 84 games he has played so far. This is what i have based my opinion on. Things that have happened in the past, should REMAIN IN THE PAST.


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> I'll bet anything that most of those 40 people who voted that Vince's demands out of Toronto were warented were not actually Raptors fans when he did it, and if a player on "thier" team had done the samething there opinions would change drasticly. Most of the people are probably just Vince Carter fans and there views of the situation is clouded by there love for Vince that they are ready to defend anything he did/does


Vince Carter fans are or were essentially raptor fans.


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

mjm1 said:


> he played a full 8 minutes less in each of those 20 games. Took less shots but his field goal percentage remained the same. i didnt see him play, but when he got to nj he was injured.


Person 1: I wonder why he played so little in those game?:whoknows:
Person 2: O O O PICK ME PICK ME:wave:
Person 1: Yes you 
Person 2: cause he quit on the team and played like crap
Person 1: That is correct:clap:


----------



## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> Person 1: I wonder why he played so little in those game?:whoknows:
> Person 2: O O O PICK ME PICK ME:wave:
> Person 1: Yes you
> Person 2: cause he quit on the team and played like crap
> Person 1: That is correct:clap:


person 3: he was playing through injury


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

VCFSO2000 said:


> Vince Carter fans are or were essentially raptor fans.


What your point


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

mjm1 said:


> i am a nets fan first, and as such can say that he has given a 125% for my team in each of the 84 games he has played so far. This is what i have based my opinion on. Things that have happened in the past, should REMAIN IN THE PAST.



Doesn't matter what he has done for the Nets ... he tanked - that's it. He can't take that back.

And people who pay good money to see NBA games and the fans of Toronto that supported him vehemently while he was there deserve to be pissed off.


----------



## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

mjm1 said:


> i am a nets fan first, and as such can say that he has given a 125% for my team in each of the 84 games he has played so far. This is what i have based my opinion on. Things that have happened in the past, should REMAIN IN THE PAST.



It is from that past that gets Carter into where he is now

so can't ignore it


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

mjm1 said:


> person 3: he was playing through injury


And which one of his many "injuries would that be



note: that was nice adding person3 in there


----------



## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> What your point


You were saying that those who voted in favor of VC weren't raptor fans..Just VC groupies..Well I'm saying,VC fans are or were essentially raps fans.


----------



## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> And which one of his many "injuries would that be
> 
> 
> 
> *note: that was nice adding person3 in there*


yes lol. For the record, i dont agree with players demanding trades. However, i will not hold this against any such player and judge their character by it. To do so would be foolish i believe. People grow apart, they change and thats apart of life. In essence, **** happens but you gotta deal with it. I truly believe that carter has changed and is sorry to all toronto raptor fans.


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

VCFSO2000 said:


> You were saying that those who voted in favor of VC weren't raptor fans..Just VC groupies..Well I'm saying,VC fans are or were essentially raps fans.


i said most of those who voted in favor

no most/all were raptors groupies only watching them to see vince and not actually having an emotional investment to the team


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

mjm1 said:


> yes lol. For the record, i dont agree with players demanding trades. However, i will not hold this against any such player and judge their character by it. To do so would be foolish i believe. People grow apart, they change and thats apart of life. In essence, **** happens but you gotta deal with it. I truly believe that carter has changed and is sorry to all toronto raptor fans.


He could have grown as far apart from the raps organiztion as he wanted thats no an exscuse for giving up on the team/teammates


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

JNice, i believe if vc played for orlando your opinion would be vastly different. as such everyone's opinion here is somewhat biased.


----------



## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> He could have grown as far apart from the raps organiztion as he wanted thats no an exscuse for giving up on the team/teammates


Management gave up on HIM.


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

mjm1 said:


> Management gave up on HIM.


 
How


----------



## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> i said most of those who voted in favor
> 
> *no most/all were raptors groupies only watching them to see vince and not actually having an emotional investment to the team*


Well,pertaining to what's in bold. I can emphatically deny those charges. Vince Carter is the reason I'm a basketball fan. That doesn't mean I can watch a game with the Houston Rockets opposing the Milwaukee Bucks. Vince doesn't need to be there in order for me to watch it,although it sure would help as he's,IMO,the most exciting player in the game.

Now,back to your accusation that I,along with many other VC fans had no emotional investment in the team. Well,you're wrong. Vince brings me to the raps and everything else that needs to be done in order to be a ''hardcore raps fan'' was taken care of. I grew to love the Jerome Willams' and the Antonio Davis' of this world. Alvin,Mo Pete,Del Curry,among others.

What you fail to understand is,Vince had a lot of injury problems. He would miss huge chunks of several seaons. And I would cheer one the raps,whether Vince was going hard for a dunk or Alvin was going in for a simple layup. There was that year where Vince was injured and the raps made that unbelievable run to the playoffs,and eventually were eliminated by the Pistons...Oh the memories,and Vince was barely in half of them...No emotional investment?I'm afraid you're mistaken...


----------



## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> How


BY NOT BUILDING AROUND HIM.


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

VCFSO2000 said:


> Well,pertaining to what's in bold. I can emphatically deny those charges. Vince Carter is the reason I'm a basketball fan. That doesn't mean I can watch a game with the Houston Rockets opposing the Milwaukee Bucks. Vince doesn't need to be there in order for me to watch it,although it sure would help as he's,IMO,the most exciting player in the game.
> 
> Now,back to your accusation that I,along with many other VC fans had no emotional investment in the team. Well,you're wrong. Vince brings me to the raps and everything else that needs to be done in order to be a ''hardcore raps fan'' was taken care of. I grew to love the Jerome Willams' and the Antonio Davis' of this world. Alvin,Mo Pete,Del Curry,among others.
> 
> What you fail to understand is,Vince had a lot of injury problems. He would miss huge chunks of several seaons. And I would cheer one the raps,whether Vince was going hard for a dunk or Alvin was going in for a simple layup. There was that year where Vince was injured and the raps made that unbelievable run to the playoffs,and eventually were eliminated by the Pistons...Oh the memories,and Vince was barely in half of them...No emotional investment?I'm afraid you're mistaken...


 
Well that good for you but im afraid your in a vary small group


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

mjm1 said:


> JNice, i believe if vc played for orlando your opinion would be vastly different. as such everyone's opinion here is somewhat biased.



Not true at all. Why don't you do a search and see all the "praise" i've tossed the way of Steve Francis.

I am a fan of the game first and foremost. Call me old fashioned, but in my opinion Vince disrespected the game.


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Where do people get this "Carter tanked it" thing? 

Move on please, those "the score, sportcenter" brodacater are still bitter. I've grown tired of their comments when showing highlights of the Nets like "Vince with the bucket and the foul but he probably stayed on the floor there for a while there" etc etc.

*Carter didn't tank it, Sam Mitchel screw him up.*


----------



## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Air Fly said:


> Where do people get this "Carter tanked it" thing?
> 
> Move on please, those "the score, sportcenter" brodacater are still bitter. I've grown tired of their comments when showing highlights of the Nets like "Vince with the bucket and the foul but he probably stayed on the floor there for a while there" etc etc.
> 
> *Carter didn't tank it, Sam Mitchel screw him up.*



Oh bull .. he tanked. The Vince homers just need to accept it.


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

JNice said:


> Not true at all. Why don't you do a search and see all the "praise" i've tossed the way of Steve Francis.
> 
> I am a fan of the game first and foremost. Call me old fashioned, but in my opinion Vince disrespected the game.


How so? I've watched all of his 20 raps games last season and he didn't tank any of them.


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

mjm1 said:


> BY NOT BUILDING AROUND HIM.


 
Re-Signing Alvin Williams
Re-Signing Jerome Williams 
Signing Hakeem
Trading for Antonio Davis
Trading For Jalen Rose


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

JNice said:


> Oh bull .. he tanked. The Vince homers just need to accept it.


He ATTMITED he tanked it accept it


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

JNice said:


> Oh bull .. he tanked. The Vince homers just need to accept it.


Accept what, a false statement?

Or trying to figure out how could a coach not have faith in his "franchise player"?


----------



## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

The thing is,as a VC fan who knows the game lol,I'm sorry to expose some of you(without naming names),but some of you are kidding yourselves when you think VC isn't to blame just a little in that whole mess.

Sure they promised him a say in decisions and didn't deliver,sure they didn't build around him while other teams in the conference were stock-piling talent,and all of this was happening while VC was injury-prone(and still is actually...)

But Vince hadn't helped the situation by forcing them to overpay Alvin,Jerome and Antonio. And that alone should weigh on your conscience a little,as you ask to be traded from a franchise you asked to make certain economically compromising decisions just to keep you happy.

The reason I voted ''yes'' in this poll,is that VC had to make a choice to resurrect his career. He made by asking for a trade. It was a selfish move and a very smart one. Sometimes you have to be selfish to get ahead in life. The reason this debate rages on,is because some people don't seem to think that way...


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> Accept what, a false statement?
> 
> Or trying to figure out how could a coach not have faith in his "franchise player"?


 
Why did he have faith in Vince? maybey because he played like **** and gave up on the team


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

VCFSO2000 said:


> The thing is,as a VC fan who knows the game lol,I'm sorry to expose some of you(without naming names),but some of you are kidding yourselves when you think VC isn't to blame just a little in that whole mess.
> 
> Sure they promised him a say in decisions and didn't deliver,sure they didn't build around him while other teams in the conference were stock-piling talent,and all of this was happening while VC was injury-prone(and still is actually...)
> 
> ...


 
Why couldnt he average 27 ppg in Toronto?, if he hadnt been selfish we cold be watching one of the best duos in the nba today Vince15/CB4


----------



## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> He ATTMITED he tanked it accept it


Now I admit he played the most uninspired basketball of his career at that point,that statement is completely false. You're twisting his words and you know it.

He said that he relied too much on talent to succeed in the NBA,and he didn't work hard to fine tune his skills *in his years past.*

I repeat:

*In years past.*

That means,something I can presume because of the tone in which he said it,virtually his entire professional career. Does that mean he tanked it for 5 years? It can't be! Those years include the times where he stormed onto the NBA scene with his fearless driving to the bucket,wowed fans with his unmatched athleticism and ripped up defenses averaged 27ppg for an entire season.


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> Why did he have faith in Vince? maybey because he played like **** and gave up on the team


Maybe it was a fault of a rookie coach who didn't know superstars sometimes needs time to get in rhythem when struggling shooting the ball....something Lawerence Frank did figure out with Carter on the Nets....You don't bench him for the whole quartar for missing couple of shots.


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

VCFSO2000 said:


> Now I admit he played the most uninspired basketball of his career at that point,that statement is completely false. You're twisting his words and you know it.
> 
> He said that he relied too much on talent to succeed in the NBA,and he didn't work hard to fine tune his skills *in his years past.*
> 
> ...


 
Thats bull****, he clearly tanked it and you just cant accept the truth

How does he go from 15ppg to 27ppg in a matter of weeks?


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> Maybe it was a fault of a rookie coach who didn't know superstars sometimes needs time to get in rhythem when struggling shooting the ball....something Lawerence Frank did figure out with Carter on the Nets....You don't bench him for the whole quartar for missing couple of shots.


struggling with his shot? for 20 games?


----------



## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> Thats bull****, he clearly tanked it and you just cant accept the truth
> 
> How does he go from 15ppg to 27ppg in a matter of weeks?



maybe when you average about 10 minutes more?


----------



## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> Why couldnt he average 27 ppg in Toronto?, if he hadnt been selfish we cold be watching one of the best duos in the nba today Vince15/CB4


He felt he needed to move on...It's an insult to every guy working jobs they hate and they're forced to stay at that job to pay their bills,and here's this guy who asks for a trade,slacks off until he gets it,but Vince can't always think about those people when making personal decisions.For the first time in his career,you could see that he finally had the guys to think about Vince Carter and Vince Carter only.

Too many times,he'd make a decision that would shine up his public image but it would never benefit him in anyway. But by asking to be traded,he did,and I'm happy he's finally at peace with himself.because it shows on the court and I,among other VC fans,can finally go back to watching the Vince Carter who encouraged me to watch the game of basketball.


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> Why couldnt he average 27 ppg in Toronto?, if he hadnt been selfish we cold be watching one of the best duos in the nba today Vince15/CB4


Thats because the raptor organization brought in a rookie GM and a rookie coach into the team. I feel the hiring of those two were the big factor of Carter's departure or demanding a trade. He felt they were going on the 'rebuilding mode' instead of buliding a championship caliber team wish the Wolves are still doing with KG...Let's not forget that Carter had suffered lots of injuries in his career and isn't getting any younger.


----------



## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> Accept what, a false statement?
> 
> Or trying to figure out how could a coach not have faith in his "franchise player"?



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1962014



> In an interview broadcast Thursday on TNT, network analyst John Thompson asked Carter if he pushed himself as hard as he should have in Toronto.
> 
> "In years past, no," said Carter, acquired by the New Jersey Nets on Dec 17. "I was fortunate to have the talent ... you get spoiled when you're able to do a lot of things. You see that you don't have to work at it.


----------



## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

i don't see this thread going anywhere... The raptors fans will keep whining.. and vc fans will keep replying.. same old sh'''t....just close it already...


----------



## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> maybe when you average about 10 minutes more?



maybe when all of the sudden his injury was not as severe as before?


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

VC_15 said:


> maybe when you average about 10 minutes more?


 
or mayby EFFORT


----------



## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

imo the Toronto fans and media tanked on Vince as much as Vince tanked on the team...once Vince started to miss games due to questionable injuries and the team started to crumble around him, Vince lost his passion for the game....he no longer attacked the rim but was rather content on shooting the 20 footer no matter the situation and who was guarding him-- thus he ultimately bailed on the team that considered him the franchise player and instead of taking a leadership role he simply stopped trying....

at the same time, because Toronto is a blue collar town, one that roots for its winners and is super critical of its losers, once the team started to fail and Vince was hit with a slew of injuries, whether serious or not, the fans started to get on his case for not appearing to put 100% into the game..... since he was the franchise player, accountability for the losing the team experienced fell upon his shoulders (as is the case really in all sports)....instead of trying to rectify the problem, providing some assurance for the fans and trying to show that he was giving his all on the court, his performance on court declined (look at the numbers, how many times he went to the charity stripe - it drastically declined during his final years in TO while it spikes when he gets to NJ, suggesting his lack of desire to attack the net), and he asks for a deal...

so ultimately, i guess both sides are to blame: the fans and the Toronto community for not trying to embrace its star and Vince for bailing on the franchise...whether or not the trade demand is reasonable is debateable, but ultimately imo, when you sign a contract, youre obligated to play for the team that has signed you until management thinks otherwise....thus, i would have to say no...


----------



## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> Thats bull****, he clearly tanked it and you just cant accept the truth
> 
> How does he go from 15ppg to 27ppg in a matter of weeks?


Please answer this question first.

When you say he tanked it,do you go by visual evidence or what he said in that interview?

Because if it's something you believe because of the way he was playing,then alright,that's your opinion.

But,please admit that you twisted the words he said in that interview. Please.


----------



## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> maybe when you average about 10 minutes more?


No. By showing that I don't think VC is almighty god I'm trying to show these people that are opinions are to be taken seriously in hopes of bridging a gap between these 2 sides.


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> struggling with his shot? for 20 games?


Was he giving the opportunity to improve on that though? not a chance.

Also there were couple of games where Vince started hot but would end up on the bench the whole 2nd quarter, what does that tell you??


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

VCFSO2000 said:


> Please answer this question first.
> 
> When you say he tanked it,do you go by visual evidence or what he said in that interview?
> 
> ...


 
You can not honestly tell me that he was giving it 100% during his last season in Toronto


----------



## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> You can not honestly tell me that he was giving it 100% during his last season in Toronto



Please answer the question then I will answer or counter whatever argument you choose to throw my way(If there's a need to..)


----------



## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

> But Vince hadn't helped the situation by forcing them to overpay Alvin,Jerome and Antonio. And that alone should weigh on your conscience a little,as you ask to be traded from a franchise you asked to make certain economically compromising decisions just to keep you happy.
> 
> The reason I voted ''yes'' in this poll,is that VC had to make a choice to resurrect his career. He made by asking for a trade. It was a selfish move and a very smart one. Sometimes you have to be selfish to get ahead in life. The reason this debate rages on,is because some people don't seem to think that way...



good post, which is what I think this discussion is about: recognizing the role Carter played in his departure from Toronto while not blame him for it 100%


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> Was he giving the opportunity to improve on that though? not a chance.
> 
> Also there were couple of games where Vince started hot but would end up in the bench the whole 2nd quarter, what does that tell you???


He would begin to take shots out of rhythym of the offence and also took extremely selfish shots and never looked interested in playing


----------



## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

VCFSO2000 said:


> No. By showing that I don't think VC is almighty god I'm trying to show these people that are opinions are to be taken seriously in hopes of bridging a gap between these 2 sides.



look all i am saying is this... Vince averaged 16 points in 30 minutes in Toronto before the trade

and he averaged 27 points in almost 40 minutes in NJ... that's totally reasonable...Anyways like i said.. this thread would never end... Toronto fans will never move on ( at least it seems like it )....so they will keep bashing him.. if we keep replying... theres no use...


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

VCFSO2000 said:


> Please answer the question then I will answer or counter whatever argument you choose to throw my way(If there's a need to..)


 
I base my opionion on how he played through a 90/10 pairing

90% how he played
10% what he said


----------



## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

VC_15 said:


> look all i am saying is this... Vince averaged 16 points in 30 minutes in Toronto before the trade
> 
> and he averaged 27 points in almost 40 minutes in NJ... that's totally reasonable...Anyways like i said.. this thread would never end... Toronto fans will never move on ( at least it seems like it )....so they will keep bashing him.. if we keep replying... theres no use...


30 minutes cause he played like crap if he played the way he did in toroto in NJ no dounbt his *** would be on the bench and if he played the way he is in NJ in T.O no doubt h would have played more


----------



## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

VCFSO2000 said:


> Please answer this question first.
> 
> When you say he tanked it,do you go by visual evidence or what he said in that interview?
> 
> ...



While "tanking" might be too strong of a word, there were several reasons (from my memory) to doubt Carter:

1. His injuries: he began to get injuried easily and began to sit out a lot of game.

2. His production: maybe it was because people expected a lot of him, but he wasn't as good.

3. I remember one incidence where Carter sat out a game due to injury but then was spotted dancing or doing something else that was physically demanding the next night.

4. His interview with John Thompson.

5. All of the sudden he began to be healthy enough to play and play well again after he was traded. I don't think too many Raptors' players and fans were too happy about that


----------



## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> look all i am saying is this... Vince averaged 16 points in 30 minutes in Toronto before the trade
> 
> and he averaged 27 points in almost 40 minutes in NJ... that's totally reasonable...Anyways like i said.. this thread would never end... Toronto fans will never move on ( at least it seems like it )....so they will keep bashing him.. if we keep replying... theres no use...



I think one of the reasons might be that some Carter fans down play (or deny) what he did to the Raptors.

Because from the way this thread has gone some Carter fans don't think what Carter did was that bad at all...and I doubt any Raptors or basketball fans can be happy when hear/see that


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Just one last comment before i stop replying to raptors fans....


Why would vc fake injuries? the guy was the most popular player during the years of 2000-2002......he was resembled to Mj by few people.. he went to the All-star game... he played with USA...... why would he risk all this to fake an injury? theres no way in hell vince would fake an injury... he always repeats how he wants to be fully recovered as in 100% before stepping on the damn court....if he hadn't missed those games... i dont think he will still be able to play at the level he is now... because he wouldve played through injuries and that would make it worse... knee injuries are the worst.... so cut all this BS about faking injuries...


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## superdude211 (Apr 3, 2004)

mabey faking is a harsh word i think he embelished some injuries


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> Just one last comment before i stop replying to raptors fans....
> 
> 
> Why would vc fake injuries? the guy was the most popular player during the years of 2000-2002......he was resembled to Mj by few people.. he went to the All-star game... he played with USA...... why would he risk all this to fake an injury? theres no way in hell vince would fake an injury... he always repeats how he wants to be fully recovered as in 100% before stepping on the damn court....if he hadn't missed those games... i dont think he will still be able to play at the level he is now... because he wouldve played through injuries and that would make it worse... knee injuries are the worst.... so cut all this BS about faking injuries...



who said Carter faked injuries? I didn't read anything of that in the latter portions of this thread

I doubt he faked injuries. It's one thing to play hard through injuries and another thing to sit out easily because of an injury that can be possibly played through


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

GoDWade said:


> I think one of the reasons might be that some Carter fans down play (or deny) what he did to the Raptors.
> 
> Because from the way this thread has gone some Carter fans don't think what Carter did was that bad at all...and I doubt any Raptors or basketball fans can be happy when hear/see that



no i admit carter did some bad stuff about going publicly and stuff like that and he if he didn't play up to his max his last -season than this is not right.... but it's not like he commited a crime or killed the president.... some fans whishe he dies... some fans wishe his mom gets hit by a truck.... some fans wish he gets injured... u hv no idea how many times i read this on Raptors Boards... some of them are really.... :nah:


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

superdude211 said:


> I base my opionion on how he played through a 90/10 pairing
> 
> 90% how he played
> 10% what he said


Thank you.

Now,to counter what you said,IMO that 10% should be thrown out of the window because he was clearly talking about his offseason work ethic.

Second of all,do I think he tanked in his last days as a raptor?Now,IMO,tanking is purposely not giving you all. So in that case,NO.

Do I think the VC I saw in his last days as a raptor is the real VC?YES.

While Carter's my favorite player of all time,I've always been the first to fairly criticize his play,his on-court attitude and his ranking among the NBA elite.

What you saw,as Carter was playing out his days in T.O,was a clear demonstration of Carter's worst weakness: Motivation.

Carter has shown,that when he isn't in a position of his liking,he doesn't work hard. The guy wants to be traded,he doesn't get his wish,so what happens,he doesn't work hard.

Oh,don't get me wrong,a Vince Carter who doesn't work hard doesn't necessarily lead to unproductive Vince as he clearly stated in that interview that he depended on his skills to get him by,not hard work. So Carter had his nice games here and there(That buzzer beater against POR comes to mind) so his lack of effort was camouflage by his sexy box score. The nights where his shot was off,are where his lack of hard work were emphasized.

VC didn't tank it in TO,he was just put in position,by not being traded when requested so,to not be motivated. And I know what an unmotivated VC means.


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> no i admit carter did some bad stuff about going publicly and stuff like that and he if he didn't play up to his max his last -season than this is not right.... but it's not like he commited a crime or killed the president.... some fans whishe he dies... some fans wishe his mom gets hit by a truck.... some fans wish he gets injured... u hv no idea how many times i read this on Raptors Boards... some of them are really.... :nah:


Ahhhhhh

GOTCHA

:cheers:


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

GoDWade said:


> While "tanking" might be too strong of a word, there were several reasons (from my memory) to doubt Carter:
> 
> 1. His injuries: he began to get injuried easily and began to sit out a lot of game.
> 
> ...


Whenever people bring that up,I grin slightly.

Don't even need to say why...........





Ok just for kicks,how is playing physical basketball in the best league on this planet comparable to harlem shaking or crip walkin loll...I will be the first to admit VC isn't perfect but those types of arguments are just pathetic and filled with hatred.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

GoDWade said:


> Ahhhhhh
> 
> GOTCHA
> 
> :cheers:



Nah man.. i never had a problem with admiting that vc did some bad things ( ex: shot selections... run the break..etc..) or anything like that... plus i criticize him a lot when he doesnt step up..... but what i am saying is damn... it's been almost a year.. get over it.. he's in Nj... Why do we always have to repeat the same damn thing..


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

VCFSO2000 said:


> Whenever people bring that up,I grin slightly.
> 
> Don't even need to say why...........
> 
> ...


huh?

the whole incidence was like Carter saying "oh I am injured so I can't play" then he went out and engaged in activities that either put him into risks of hurting himself or showed that he was still okay enough to move around

I dont' even remember exactly what he did but it's less of an argument of hatred than a question


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

GoDWade said:


> huh?
> 
> the whole incidence was like Carter saying "oh I am injured so I can't play" then he went out and engaged in activities that either put him into risks of hurting himself or showed that he was still okay enough to move around
> 
> I dont' even remember exactly what he did but it's less of an argument of hatred than a question


So..to prove you're injured you have to sit on a wheelchair and not do anything?

There are many injuries that don't require crutches and wheelchairs to manage. And If I remember that story clearly,Carter was spotted at a Nelly concert,dancing. And the injury that was sidelining him was one that would put him out of action for no more than 3 weeks. So he has to walk around limping purposely to show the world...''Hey!Look at me!I'm hurt!AH!AH!Damn this is going to take some time to rehab!''....

It was a minor injury for Christ's sake...


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

VC_15 said:


> Just one last comment before i stop replying to raptors fans....
> 
> 
> Why would vc fake injuries? the guy was the most popular player during the years of 2000-2002......he was resembled to Mj by few people.. he went to the All-star game... he played with USA...... why would he risk all this to fake an injury? theres no way in hell vince would fake an injury... he always repeats how he wants to be fully recovered as in 100% before stepping on the damn court....if he hadn't missed those games... i dont think he will still be able to play at the level he is now... because he wouldve played through injuries and that would make it worse... knee injuries are the worst.... so cut all this BS about faking injuries...


i believe for many Raptor fans its not so much him faking injuries but more of how he is someone that makes an injury worse looking that it actually is....fans in Toronto expect a player to suck it up and play through pain....they see Leafs take a puck or stick to the face, see him head off the ice for 10-15 mins, then come back ready to play with stiches in their face...when the media and fans saw Vince out for a month after he landed awkwardly after so many times, they ripped him as being weak...now that may be unfair to Vince however imo, it comes with the territory....youre paid top dollar to play and when youre not and when theres reports that you dont put 100% into your game/career (ie/ not working out over the summer) you will be scrutinized....

on a similar note, after he was apparently healthy, he didnt attack the rip with as much vigor as once before, as said he'd take the mere 18 foot jumper rather than try to blow past a defender...so to see a drastic change in Vince's game from that of an explosive driver to a spot up shooter who rarely attacked the rim made it appear that he wasnt trying as hard as he once was (again whether this was REALLY the case is debateable-- however if you look at the stats in his final year in TO and his first in NJ, you see why fans in TO say that VC was dogging it and not giving 100%)....this is ultimately the root of a lot of Raptor fans annomosity and hatred towards Vince - his apparent lack of caring for the franchise...

but i agree, both teams should move on....the Raps have a good thing going for them (although their record says otherwise)....the 06 draft will be a good one to help round out the future roster and by 08 i see them knocking at the playoff door....


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

VCFSO2000 said:


> So..to prove you're injured you have to sit on a wheelchair and not do anything?
> 
> There are many injuries that don't require crutches and wheelchairs to manage. And If I remember that story clearly,Carter was spotted at a Nelly concert,dancing. And the injury that was sidelining him was one that would put him out of action for no more than 3 weeks. So he has to walk around limping purposely to show the world...''Hey!Look at me!I'm hurt!AH!AH!Damn this is going to take some time to rehab!''....
> 
> It was a minor injury for Christ's sake...



Carter had missed many games before that, it was an insult for the Raptors fans see him to not take care better of himself

that's my point rather than the severity of the injury (i.e. being on crutches)


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

NeoSamurai said:


> i believe for many Raptor fans its not so much him faking injuries but more of how he is someone that makes an injury worse looking that it actually is...



you said it well, which was my point in bring up the dancing incident


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

GoDWade said:


> Carter had missed many games before that, it was an insult for the Raptors fans see him to not take care better of himself
> 
> that's my point rather than the severity of the injury (i.e. being on crutches)


That's like saying athletes who ride motorcylces are insulting their fans by not ''taking care of themselves'' or ''risking injury''. If Bill Cowher allows Roethlisberger for doing so(riding the bike),can't we cut Vince some slack for dancing?Is that really an insult or fans wanting more power than they already have...


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

VCFSO2000 said:


> That's like saying athletes who ride motorcylces are insulting their fans by not ''taking care of themselves'' or ''risking injury''. If Bill Cowher allows Roethlisberger for doing so(riding the bike),can't we cut Vince some slack for dancing?Is that really an insult or fans wanting more power than they already have...



I think Big Ben got criticized for that

also, Jay Williams and Kellen Winslow were also criticized for it

I believe many teams had a policy against motorcylce riding (which is Jay Williamd and Winslow were in trouble regarding their contracts after their injuries) if you want to go down that route

but nonetheless, if you refuse to take my point, that's ok


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

GoDWade said:


> I think Big Ben got criticized for that
> 
> also, Jay Williams and Kellen Winslow were also criticized for it
> 
> ...


Sure,motorcycle can lead to career-shortening or ending injuries.

But if,considering all those hazards,a coach can still give his star QB the greenlight to continue riding a freakin bike,are we going to throw a tantrum whenever a dude dances?


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## NeoSamurai (Jan 16, 2003)

VCFSO2000 said:


> That's like saying athletes who ride motorcylces are insulting their fans by not ''taking care of themselves'' or ''risking injury''. If Bill Cowher allows Roethlisberger for doing so(riding the bike),can't we cut Vince some slack for dancing?Is that really an insult or fans wanting more power than they already have...


as professional athletes, its almost expected by the fans that the players do logical things that would not hurt them and risk themselves as well as the team's well being...with that said if Cower told Ben that he was alright with riding his bike, then so be it - as long as he took care of himself and didnt jeopardize the franchise's well being by getting hurt...

if Vince had a hurt knee, it would be expected by the general public, that he would take time to rest and recouperate and try to heal up as quickly as possible while at the same time try not to do things that may risk further injury....by going to such a concert he:

A) made it look like he wasnt thinking about the team first and trying to get as much rest as possible
B) he was performing an activity that could further risk his injury


now you may counter with the point that hes a human being and an adult and that he has the right and enough common sense to do what he will and that he wouldnt have "danced" if it would risk futher injury, but i will say this: hes a professional athlete...during the season, he is expected to focus on whatever his sport may be and play it as best as he can...if hes injured hes expected to do what it takes to get healthy again and by dancing it suggests otherwise...

you say above: "But if,considering all those hazards,a coach can still give his star QB the greenlight to continue riding a freakin bike,are we going to throw a tantrum whenever a dude dances?"

should we throw a tantrum if he dances? my answer, as a member of the general public is YES!!! the guy is paid millions of dollars to play a sport and do it well...when a guy who's paying a weekly paycheck to send his kids out to watch a game sees that the franchise player is hurt yet dancing at a Nelly concert, that man will be hella mad...hes investing his hard earned dollars to watch the best product that his team can put out and when the franchise player is not present, its disappointing, but when you hear hes out partying, its maddening....these guys are professional athletes and as such are expected to act like professionals....


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

TheGrowth said:


> Of course not, I also dont see any part of contracts that states a player cannot voice his concerns if the situation isnt right for him...ever heard of slavery


I don't think demanding a trade is voicing a players concerns, as you said a player is not forced to sign a contract so of course there are legit ways out of a contract. Retire and find a new profession. Comparing a NBA contract to slavery is pretty off, as what the percentage of players that get hurt and collect major money when hurt? Contracts are in place to protect 2 parties, the players and owners. When players can dictate too much, what's the point of owners giving players lavish money? To get screwed and screwed again?

-Petey


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

VCFSO2000 said:


> Sure,motorcycle can lead to career-shortening or ending injuries.
> 
> But if,considering all those hazards,a coach can still give his star QB the greenlight to continue riding a freakin bike,are we going to throw a tantrum whenever a dude dances?



Besides what has been said beautifully by Neosamurai, there are some differences between Carter and Ben's situation:

1) Carter was hurt numerous times and was out often before the concert, I believe

2) Carter played so-so the little time he was back

3) The team desperately needed him back yet he was spotted in putting himself into further injuries

4) Ben was healthy enough to both play and ride the bike, and Carter was not healthy enough to do both

anyway, my point is that there are some of us that prefer to bring out and be as honest as possible about what we thought Carter did wrong (and/or the factors leading to it), and there are others that prefer to downplay it.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

TheGrowth said:


> I am sure your bosses love you...after all they know whatever goes down you will always stick with the organization...even if its not to your taste...


I used to own a company. Now I work for a company that's basically an extension of a Big 4. Sadly I've never had a contract in my life.

Personally I wish I did.

How many people do you think would alter their work habits, ideals of a job for the secuirty to know you'll get paid if you mess up, lose a deal, get sick, or get injuried?

Sure tons of people would, bet more than 50% if they knew they never had to worry about their mortage or rent, car payments, insurance, paying for nice vacations, buying nicer things, have no concerns of what restraunts to eat at or sending their kids to school and helping make their families lives better.

You make it sound like NBA players have a bad life... in fact pretty sure it's the opposite.

If they can't hack it, there are always other professions.

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

VC_15 said:


> but when you have the option to get traded? why would u not play in a different situation if your happy?


You don't have the option of being traded, *your team has the option to trade you as a player*. Vastly different things.

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

VC_15 said:


> maybe when you average about 10 minutes more?





VC_15 said:


> look all i am saying is this... Vince averaged 16 points in 30 minutes in Toronto before the trade
> 
> and he averaged 27 points in almost 40 minutes in NJ... that's totally reasonable...Anyways like i said.. this thread would never end... Toronto fans will never move on ( at least it seems like it )....so they will keep bashing him.. if we keep replying... theres no use...


How is that reasonable?

If you say so...

I can picture it now, Kobe, Mcgrady, Allen, AI and half the players in the league knocking on their coach's doors.

"Coach, I need another 10 minutes a night, it'll let me add 11 points to my average..."

LOL

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

VCFSO2000 said:


> Thank you.
> 
> *Now,to counter what you said,IMO that 10% should be thrown out of the window because he was clearly talking about his offseason work ethic.*
> 
> ...


You're right, that doesn't have anything to do with his on the court antics with with the Raptors. That goes a bit beyond, but shows his character, and his devotion to the franchise as much as his trade request. 

These are adults, you'd think they find something to motivate themselves. Is it kind of sad when people have to make excuses for ADULTS lack of motivation and dedication? Weren't not talking about kids in a pee wee league here.

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

VC_15 said:


> Nah man.. i never had a problem with admiting that vc did some bad things ( ex: shot selections... run the break..etc..) or anything like that... plus i criticize him a lot when he doesnt step up..... but what i am saying is damn... *it's been almost a year.. get over it.. he's in Nj... Why do we always have to repeat the same damn thing..*


Things done in the past define who you are.

I've asked you this before, you haven't answered.

Does Vince Carter helping make basketball popular in Canada define him? Should we remember him for that, the dunk contests, his big games?

If we should remember the good things, why not the bad things?

-Petey


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

Lets use Kidd as an example...Kidd had the choice to play with Duncan or stay with the nets...he chose the nets who had that time still had Kmart and a couple of players that were part of the eastern conference finals team...now he signs that contract they trade away most of those players or get rid of them....how the **** should Kidd feel...do you expect him to keep competing for the lottery every year...a player of his caliber....If he asks out from a situation that isnt suitable for him how is that not acceptable...

All Vince wanted was a chance to rejuvenate his career...some keep bringing up the fact that AD, JYD and Williams all got nice contracts but what sort of management gives into the request of its star player...are you saying they werent better options on the market they could have gone after....once again the raptors management is a joke...how many coaches in how many years...

And regarding the whole tanking thing it all depends on how you look at it....how many games did the raptors win in that 20 game stretch...me I see it more as a mental thing for Vince....its hard to motivate yourself when a situation isnt conducive for you..its no secret that Mitchell hated Vince's guts....30mpg as compared to 38 or 40 is a lot when talking about a player like Vince...he needs the ball in his hands to be effective...even Marbury said they were running any plays for Vince..the raps had clearly given up on him and were moving towards Bosh...but of course raps fans need someone to blame for their disappointments who best than the guy who went on TNT and those infamous statements I doubt will ever be forgiven.....


Petey here is a very easy question for you....If you feel betrayed at work, things arent going right for you...would you or would you not look for a better situation and sorry to say this, you'd be a fool if you didnt look out for the best....


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

> These are adults, you'd think they find something to motivate themselves. Is it kind of sad when people have to make excuses for ADULTS lack of motivation and dedication? Weren't not talking about kids in a pee wee league here.


You make it sound so easy...I am pretty sure if you had gone through what Vince had for the raps you wouldnt be singing this tune....even when he tried to do good he was bashed....when he rushed back from injuries to try and win which of course lead to more injuries he was bashed...when he decided to take the safe route and rest those injuries he was bashed....when he decided to go get his diploma/degree and be a better example to tons of kids out there he was bashed....almost every season a new coach, a new system....and then you see management isnt really trying hard to improve the system and are just concerned about making profits...yeah its real easy to motivate yourself, real easy...


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Lets use Kidd as an example...Kidd had the choice to play with Duncan or stay with the nets...he chose the nets who had that time still had Kmart and a couple of players that were part of the eastern conference finals team...now he signs that contract they trade away most of those players or get rid of them....how the **** should Kidd feel...do you expect him to keep competing for the lottery every year...a player of his caliber....If he asks out from a situation that isnt suitable for him how is that not acceptable...


You are comparing the words taken from Carter to a rumor? Point taken, as stated I was for trading Kidd last year. If the Nets were to make a move, at this point I'd just hope they keep Jefferson and Krstic.



> All Vince wanted was a chance to rejuvenate his career...some keep bringing up the fact that AD, JYD and Williams all got nice contracts but what sort of management gives into the request of its star player...are you saying they werent better options on the market they could have gone after....once again the raptors management is a joke...how many coaches in how many years...
> 
> And regarding the whole tanking thing it all depends on how you look at it....how many games did the raptors win in that 20 game stretch...me I see it more as a mental thing for Vince....its hard to motivate yourself when a situation isnt conducive for you..its no secret that Mitchell hated Vince's guts....30mpg as compared to 38 or 40 is a lot when talking about a player like Vince...he needs the ball in his hands to be effective...even Marbury said they were running any plays for Vince..the raps had clearly given up on him and were moving towards Bosh...but of course raps fans need someone to blame for their disappointments who best than the guy who went on TNT and those infamous statements I doubt will ever be forgiven.....


If Mitchell seriously gave up on Carter won't it make sense to play and showcase him to raise his value, instead of cut his minutes to lower his value?



> Petey here is a very easy question for you....If you feel betrayed at work, things arent going right for you...would you or would you not look for a better situation and sorry to say this, you'd be a fool if you didnt look out for the best....


Did you NOT see what I had posted about the average American?

If I felt betrayed at work, was paid a fair amount for the work I would be doing and felt I had job secruity, no I won't be shopping myself around. You keep talking about the bad situation players are in, what about the good things these players get from the bad situations? Way better than when the average person has their rough times right? AND if they are like every day people... they should make every day wages? Sure let alot more people afford to head out to a game.

-Petey


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## AIFAN3 (Sep 17, 2005)

This thread needs to be locked before it starts a flame war between Carter fans and Raptor fans


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

Petey said:


> If Mitchell seriously gave up on Carter won't it make sense to play and showcase him to raise his value, instead of cut his minutes to lower his value?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First of all where did we hear about the Vince Carter trade request..where did we hear about Kidd's trade demands...now you can call it a rumor if you want to but GM's knew Kidd was being shopped just as they knew Vince was too...doesnt that affect the standpoint the nets and the raps were dealing from...

Sorry about the fool comment, I guess its the way we both see things. Me personally am always looking out for the best, if things arent working out the way I planned am immediately looking for rememdies...

And regarding showcasing I highly doubt there is such a thing, well not as much as some people make it out to be...at least not to a guy like Mitchell...that was his first season and probably trying to show people he is all about winning, why would he care about showcasing ... his main concern was winning hames and am pretty sure he thought Vince wasnt going to be traded, well not at that point anyways...even Vince was suprised he was traded....


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

AIFAN3 said:


> This thread needs to be locked before it starts a flame war between Carter fans and Raptor fans


NOOO please dont...I believe we are all civilized people..at least I think so..this thread gives me and am sure others a chance to see both sides of the coin..maybe something can be gained...


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Sorry about the fool comment, I guess its the way we both see things. Me personally am always looking out for the best, if things arent working out the way I planned am immediately looking for rememdies...


So you would give up a job where you feel secure and feel you are being paid proper wages for your experience and the actual work you would do because you feel slighted? Perhaps I don't know what you mean by wronged.

Though overall in the grand scheme of things I doubt our opinions will change much in how the other thinks, as you seem to have a problem likes others grasping how to compare things. Why not compare NBA players to other union workers? Why not compare them to others whom have contracts?

I also kind of almost find it troubling that most members here don't understand what legally binding contracts are. 

What their basic rights for players, and owners are. And what it means to satisfy a contract. Owners hold up their ends. They pay the players... never heard of a team skipping out on a pay day, but when players can't they aren't held accountable for things that are not in writing.

And I can't understand how people can not graps how when a player signs their name to that contract, they have an obligation to whomever holds that contract. And of course the other way around, the teams employees / owners have signed off on those deals too have an obligation, BUT that obligation is only to pay that player because NBA contracts unlike those in other sports _could_ provide other benefits.

-Petey


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

Petey said:


> So you would give up a job where you feel secure and feel you are being paid proper wages for your experience and the actual work you would do because you feel slighted? Perhaps I don't know what you mean by wronged.
> 
> Though overall in the grand scheme of things I doubt our opinions will change much in how the other thinks, as you seem to have a problem likes others grasping how to compare things. Why not compare NBA players to other union workers? Why not compare them to others whom have contracts?
> 
> ...


Maybe your right and am wrong...and maybe the NBA shouldnt be compared to 'normal jobs' because after all in the real world or in a normal job there is no such thing as trades...how would a guy like Eric Williams fit into your scheme who signed a contract with the NJ nets with the hopes that he was going to be playing for his hometown team and close to his family....next thing he knows he is on the inactive list for the Toronto raptors...After all he did sign a contract with the NJ nets not the Raptors..and dont even get me started on owners they are the problems with the league right now...

And there is such a thing has pride....it doesnt matter how much you are making...me personally I hold such a thing dearly...if a situation isnt beneficial to me and is hampering my productivity why keep on lying to myself and the organization....


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

Petey said:


> You're right, that doesn't have anything to do with his on the court antics with with the Raptors. That goes a bit beyond, but shows his character, and his devotion to the franchise as much as his trade request.
> 
> These are adults, you'd think they find something to motivate themselves. Is it kind of sad when people have to make excuses for ADULTS lack of motivation and dedication? Weren't not talking about kids in a pee wee league here.
> 
> -Petey


I'm not making excuses for Vince. I'm telling it like it is. I'm telling you his biggest flaw. No excuses to protect ''my beloved VC''. Just telling it like it is.


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

GoDWade said:


> Besides what has been said beautifully by Neosamurai, there are some differences between Carter and Ben's situation:
> 
> 1) Carter was hurt numerous times and was out often before the concert, I believe
> 
> ...



Alright I get it. Vince shouldn't have danced.Bad teammate!Bad Teammate! lol just kidding..


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

VCFSO2000 said:


> Vince Carter fans are or were essentially raptor fans.


 No, Raptors fans are still fans of the Raptors. Vince Carter fans are now fans of the Nets.


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

VCFSO2000 said:


> Well,pertaining to what's in bold. I can emphatically deny those charges. Vince Carter is the reason I'm a basketball fan. That doesn't mean I can watch a game with the Houston Rockets opposing the Milwaukee Bucks. Vince doesn't need to be there in order for me to watch it,although it sure would help as he's,IMO,the most exciting player in the game.
> 
> Now,back to your accusation that I,along with many other VC fans had no emotional investment in the team. Well,you're wrong. Vince brings me to the raps and everything else that needs to be done in order to be a ''hardcore raps fan'' was taken care of. I grew to love the Jerome Willams' and the Antonio Davis' of this world. Alvin,Mo Pete,Del Curry,among others.
> 
> What you fail to understand is,Vince had a lot of injury problems. He would miss huge chunks of several seaons. And I would cheer one the raps,whether Vince was going hard for a dunk or Alvin was going in for a simple layup. There was that year where Vince was injured and the raps made that unbelievable run to the playoffs,and eventually were eliminated by the Pistons...Oh the memories,and Vince was barely in half of them...No emotional investment?I'm afraid you're mistaken...


Hey,budweiser boy,just read this post of mine...Me typing another one would be like a waste of time since it would basically the same things as the one above contains.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

> Well,pertaining to what's in bold. I can emphatically deny those charges. Vince Carter is the reason I'm a basketball fan.


If the reason you love basketball is because of one player and not the game itself then your a fairweather NBA fan at best. Those of us that can't live without the game, whether it's the Heat vs Pistons or the varesty team down the street, understand some of the deeper nuances that I now realize you're not capable of.

The reason I'm a basketball fan is because when I'm not watching, writing, researching, playing, talking, listening, thinking about basketball... I'm asleep. 

:cheers: to those who know what I'm saying.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> No, Raptors fans are still fans of the Raptors. Vince Carter fans are now fans of the Nets.


Wrong! It's some raps fans who hate Carter still holds the idea that if you still like him, then you're not a true harcore raptor fan.

I like Vince but i still till this day watch almost all raptors games and cheer them on. There are also many other raps fans who their fav players might be Iverson, Kobe etc but they still a fan of the raptors.


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> Wrong! It's some raps fans who hate Carter still holds the idea that if you still like him, then you're not a true harcore raptor fan.
> 
> I like Vince but i still till this day watch almost all raptors games and cheer them on. There are also many other raps fans who their fav players might be Iverson, Kobe etc but they still a fan of the raptors.


:clap: I'm a fan of the Raptors still. I don't like the organization in Toronto nor do I like 80% of their fans, but I still like the Raptors.

Some people chose to judge Vince based on 20 games....I'll judge him on 400+ more where he absolutely dropped my jaw and made me a fan of basketball again.

I can understand a player who's lost his passion for the sport because of an upside down organization, four coaches in almost as many years, the current coach whom they're getting in fights in the locker room with, when the homecrowd boo's him, they see their name continuously being bashed against the wall in the newspaper. Can you honestly expect any player to put up his career #'s while going through that? I know when I'm at work and I feel like "what's the point?" I don't always do my best job....I'm not going to expect Vince Carter who is a fellow human being to do his best job under those circumstances either.


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

shookem said:


> If the reason you love basketball is because of one player and not the game itself then your a fairweather NBA fan at best. Those of us that can't live without the game, whether it's the Heat vs Pistons or the varesty team down the street, understand some of the deeper nuances that I now realize you're not capable of.
> 
> The reason I'm a basketball fan is because when I'm not watching, writing, researching, playing, talking, listening, thinking about basketball... I'm asleep.
> 
> :cheers: to those who know what I'm saying.


That doesnt make any sense to me...everyone is attracted to the sports for different reasons....I became a fan by watching Vince Carter not following a certain team...how do you explain the tons of people Micheal Jordan brought into the game and the tons more that became disinterested when he left...up to this day you still hear people constantly saying the game has never been the same since he left...

And oh by the way I do love the game of basketball and the man who sparked that interest happens to be Vince Carter, like phenom said i wont use 20 games against the countless times that Vince has entertained me...


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

TheGrowth said:


> Maybe your right and am wrong...and maybe the NBA shouldnt be compared to 'normal jobs' because after all in the real world or in a normal job there is no such thing as trades...how would a guy like Eric Williams fit into your scheme who signed a contract with the NJ nets with the hopes that he was going to be playing for his hometown team and close to his family....next thing he knows he is on the inactive list for the Toronto raptors...After all he did sign a contract with the NJ nets not the Raptors..and dont even get me started on owners they are the problems with the league right now...
> 
> And there is such a thing has pride....it doesnt matter how much you are making...me personally I hold such a thing dearly...if a situation isnt beneficial to me and is hampering my productivity why keep on lying to myself and the organization....


Yeah you do realize that Eric Williams signed his contract as a member of the players association that ratifies a contract with the NBA that stipulates about the situation (trade) you are talking about right? AND when a player doesn't report, aren't they fined? I wished the NBA would crack down harder on players that don't want to honor contracts.

As said players that want to control their own fate... DON'T SIGN LONG CONTRACTS. Tim Duncan controlled his own fate, instead of opting for monetary gains and as you said he's part of a world class oganization.

-Petey


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

Petey said:


> Yeah you do realize that Eric Williams signed his contract as a member of the players association that ratifies a contract with the NBA that stipulates about the situation (trade) you are talking about right? AND when a player doesn't report, aren't they fined? I wished the NBA would crack down harder on players that don't want to honor contracts.
> 
> As said players that want to control their own fate... DON'T SIGN LONG CONTRACTS. Tim Duncan controlled his own fate, instead of opting for monetary gains and as you said he's part of a world class oganization.
> 
> -Petey


You make it sound like some big injustice was done to Duncan...how much was this said contract....who were his teammates during this period...was he in a situation that they could compete for a championship...if am right Shaq took a paycut so the heat could go out and get stronger....isnt that a sign that those organizations are trying to win....you also make it sound like its totally in the players' hands how their contracts are structured...you do understand in Vince's case the raptors would never have signed him to a shorter contract....those greedy people in management had their cash cow and werent about to let him go....like I said before the money Vince is making is meager as compared to the profits raps management reaped off him...


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

TheGrowth said:


> You make it sound like some big injustice was done to Duncan...how much was this said contract....who were his teammates during this period...was he in a situation that they could compete for a championship...if am right Shaq took a paycut so the heat could go out and get stronger....isnt that a sign that those organizations are trying to win....you also make it sound like its totally in the players' hands how their contracts are structured...you do understand in Vince's case the raptors would never have signed him to a shorter contract....those greedy people in management had their cash cow and werent about to let him go....like I said before the money Vince is making is meager as compared to the profits raps management reaped off him...


There was NO injustice done to Tim Duncan, don't know where you get that from. I commended him for doing it, so has Jamel in this thread.

The Orlando Magic offered him a max contract over 6 years. When Tim Duncan turned down that contract they gave the money to Tracy McGrady, they had already signed Grant Hill to a max deal that summer.

Now in contracts you qualify for a raise each year, upon the amount he made the year before. So when Tim Duncan signed his 3 year deal, he took less than HALF of what another team threw at him. He went back to the Spurs after they were bounced in the 1st round. He knew Robinson and his mates whom were older were going to retire sooner than later.

Now you are saying that Vince Carter couldn't wait a year like many players have done to sign their contract? Accepted a contract with less year, so he could control his own fate? I'm sure Raptors at that point would had perferred 3 years of Vince Carter than no years of Vince Carter.

-Petey


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

shookem said:


> If the reason you love basketball is because of one player and not the game itself then your a fairweather NBA fan at best. Those of us that can't live without the game, whether it's the Heat vs Pistons or the varesty team down the street, understand some of the deeper nuances that I now realize you're not capable of.
> 
> The reason I'm a basketball fan is because when I'm not watching, writing, researching, playing, talking, listening, thinking about basketball... I'm asleep.
> 
> :cheers: to those who know what I'm saying.


Let me get this straight...are you trying to group these Vince Carter fans together as fans that love basketball simply because of Vince Carter? If so this is a pathetic (in every meaning of the word) argument _at best_. Honestly, who are you to judge the value of someone elses enthusiasm for a sport/player? What makes you think you understand anything deeper about the sport than someone else who has a particular liking for the ability of a single player? You're delusional if you honestly believe the nonsense you just spouted out.


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## Whack Arnolds (Dec 5, 2005)

Most VC fans are just the people who ae infactuated with the pretty aesthetics of the game. The dunks, the 3 pointer, etc.


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## Whack Arnolds (Dec 5, 2005)

Most VC fans are just the people who are infactuated with the pretty aesthetics of the game. The dunks, the 3 pointer, etc.


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

Petey said:


> There was NO injustice done to Tim Duncan, don't know where you get that from. I commended him for doing it, so has Jamel in this thread.
> 
> The Orlando Magic offered him a max contract over 6 years. When Tim Duncan turned down that contract they gave the money to Tracy McGrady, they had already signed Grant Hill to a max deal that summer.
> 
> ...


I guess we will never know cause Vince never took that amount...but what you are failing to realize is the fact that the raps werent about to let the golden boy of the time go....we are talking about Vince at the pinnacle of Vinsanity, right after the Philly loss....its like the cavs given a Bron a chance to leave the Cavs...thats a move that might as well destroy the franchise....and of course the raps would have preferred whatever amount of years Vince chose....you think they wanted another Tmac debacle...making money or losing money which is your pick


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

Whack Arnolds said:


> Most VC fans are just the people who are infactuated with the pretty aesthetics of the game. The dunks, the 3 pointer, etc.


I strongly suggest you read Phenom's post above


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

Whack Arnolds said:


> Most VC fans are just the people who ae infactuated with the pretty aesthetics of the game. The dunks, the 3 pointer, etc.


Do you have any facts/data to back up this obscene statement with?

BTW, my apologies if my last few posts have come off as a little too strong. But I just got called a fairweather basketball fan (I've been a basketball fan since I was 3) and was told that my knowledge of the sport isn't deep and that I'm just infactuated with the pretty aesthetics of the game. I think I speak for most posters here who enjoy to watch/follow a few individuals who play the sport when I say I'm more than a little offended.


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## Whack Arnolds (Dec 5, 2005)

PHeNoM Z28 said:


> Do you have any facts/data to back up this obscene statement with?


I don't have facts to back that up. It was a completely subjective analysis. And my statement may or may not be agreed with, but it appears to be so. Just look at posters like "Vincsanity". It certainly has seemed, that VC fans I know in real life really don't have a true understanding of the game, but all they see is the few glamorous highights and dunks and thats why they're fans. 





Scratch that, I do have a stat to back that up. Remember the countless years where VC was voted into the All-Star game when he barely played and when he did it was nothing special. Yeah, those are typical VC fans. Voting him into the all-star game because he can dunk, nothing more, nothing less. Same thing goes for T-Mac this year. He shouldn't even come close to that all-star game, but he is bound to be a starter b/c all people see is pretty play. It should be KG/Duncan/Brand/Dirk...


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Whack Arnolds said:


> I don't have facts to back that up. It was a completely subjective analysis. And my statement may or may not be agreed with, but it appears to be so. Just look at posters like "Vincsanity". It certainly has seemed, that VC fans I know in real life really don't have a true understanding of the game, but all they see is the few glamorous highights and dunks and thats why they're fans.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I am glad you even brought this up..... ok just to sh't you up for a bit...When vince was playing with TO.. and even with injuries he was getting the most votes...into the ASG.... and your sayingg that it was us VC fans that voted him right?... ok now he's moved to NJ.... he's been playing much better than he was in TO....and guess what he's not even Starting this year... Now why do you think that? because he lost tons of votes from Toronto... so who was voting him in the past year? it was Toronto fans and VC fans... Now that VC fans are are voting for him...he's not starting.... so stop making these dumb a''' analysis.. where it's clearly was that Toronto fans were voting him in.. well like u said it when he was injuried ( because of his dunks)...


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## Whack Arnolds (Dec 5, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> [/B]
> 
> 
> I am glad you even brought this up..... ok just to sh't you up for a bit...When vince was playing with TO.. and even with injuries he was getting the most votes...into the ASG.... and your sayingg that it was us VC fans that voted him right?... ok now he's moved to NJ.... he's been playing much better than he was in TO....and guess what he's not even Starting this year... Now why do you think that? because he lost tons of votes from Toronto... so who was voting him in the past year? it was Toronto fans and VC fans... Now that VC fans are are voting for him...he's not starting.... so stop making these dumb a''' analysis.. where it's clearly was that Toronto fans were voting him in.. well like u said it when he was injuried ( because of his dunks)...


No, b/c now their is players that are just as exciting to watch as VCm and that are actually good basketball players that aren't china dolls. Such as: D.Wade, LeBron, A.I., Gilbert Arenas, etc. etc.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Whack Arnolds said:


> No, b/c now their is players that are just as exciting to watch as VCm and that are actually good basketball players that aren't china dolls. Such as: D.Wade, LeBron, A.I., Gilbert Arenas, etc. etc.



heck correct me if i am wrong... Weren't wade and Arenas and lebron playing in 2003. 2004? and vince still got more votes why? because he was in Toronto.... now i don't know why your still arguing because it's clear as crystal... VC's votes have gone way down because he is not playing with the raps anymore... So the main reason vc was getting votd as a starter was ( the Toronto Fans)...


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## Whack Arnolds (Dec 5, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> heck correct me if i am wrong... Weren't wade and Arenas and lebron playing in 2003. 2004? and vince still got more votes why? because he was in Toronto.... now i don't know why your still arguing because it's clear as crystal... VC's votes have gone way down because he is not playing with the raps anymore... So the main reason vc was getting votd as a starter was ( the Toronto Fans)...


You too have no facts to back that up. Clearly speculation. I'm sure they would still be VC homers though is he didn't manage to pout and give up in his remaining days in Toronto. What a way to cheat paying fans.


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

Am really trying to figure out what Whack Arnolds posts have to do with the topic at hand...or maybe its just another avenue for him/her to bash Vince and his supporters...


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

TheGrowth said:


> I guess we will never know cause Vince never took that amount...but what you are failing to realize is the fact that the raps werent about to let the golden boy of the time go....we are talking about Vince at the pinnacle of Vinsanity, right after the Philly loss....its like the cavs given a Bron a chance to leave the Cavs...thats a move that might as well destroy the franchise....and of course the raps would have preferred whatever amount of years Vince chose....you think they wanted another Tmac debacle...making money or losing money which is your pick


What do you mean they won't have let him go? That is why it's called free agency, when he reached the 2nd go around as a FA, he would have had all the control. The CBA has a system of checks and balances.

-Petey


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## Whack Arnolds (Dec 5, 2005)

TheGrowth said:


> Am really trying to figure out what Whack Arnolds posts have to do with the topic at hand...or maybe its just another avenue for him/her to bash Vince and his supporters...


Go watch another VC windmill mixtape...


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Whack Arnolds said:


> You too have no facts to back that up. Clearly speculation. I'm sure they would still be VC homers though is he didn't manage to pout and give up in his remaining days in Toronto. What a way to cheat paying fans.




any one with a perfect mind would tell why vince's votes have went down.... it realy doesn't take a genuis to figure it out... so you can stop being an Idiot for a second and admit that Toronto fans were the main reason he was in the ASG.... just like Yao ming? why do you think he gets more votes than any1? or do i need to have facts to back it up..?


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

Petey said:


> What do you mean they won't have let him go? That is why it's called free agency, when he reached the 2nd go around as a FA, he would have had all the control. The CBA has a system of checks and balances.
> 
> -Petey


Sigh* I have said it once and maybe twice, the raptors could not have afforded to let Vince Carter go, not with the team they had then...not with what happened to Tmac...




> Go watch another VC windmill mixtape...


I guess I should because according to you thats why I watch basketball...


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## Intense Enigma (Oct 22, 2005)

Whack Arnolds said:


> Most VC fans are just the people who ae infactuated with the pretty aesthetics of the game. The dunks, the 3 pointer, etc.



Remember this come from a guy who say that Stephon Marbury is a "ELITE" player in this league.LOL at you.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

VC_15 said:


> any one with a perfect mind would tell why vince's votes have went down.... it realy doesn't take a genuis to figure it out... so you can stop being an Idiot for a second and admit that Toronto fans were the main reason he was in the ASG.... just like Yao ming? why do you think he gets more votes than any1? or do i need to have facts to back it up..?


Ah... there are several factors for Vince Carter's votes going down.

And I've been calling it even before the All-Star ballots were released.

1) In the East Carter was listed as a Foward; he is no longer a small foward on the Nets. You think he would had gotten as many votes listed as a guard with AI, T-Mac, and Jordan listed as guards too?

2) The Nets have 4 nationally televised games, only 2 before the All Star game, the Heat have 20+ with 13 between when balloting opened until the All Star break. That is a huge amount of extra exposure.

3) Of course the reason you listed, Carter has the whole support of a country, but I saw this arguement on another board. If Carter had so many votes because he was a Raptor, why does Bosh have so few? If people know voting for Wade and AI will keep Carter out of the All-Star game, why are there so few votes for them compared to other players?



Btw, you still have not answered my other question, and I have asked you twice. You want us to forget Vince Carter's last year with the Raptors?

Should we forget how he helped make basketball popular in Canada, how he won those slam dunk contests and all that good stuff?

Good and bad things define who you are.

-Petey


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

TheGrowth said:


> Sigh* I have said it once and maybe twice, the raptors could not have afforded to let Vince Carter go, not with the team they had then...not with what happened to Tmac...


You can sigh all you want. But I clearly told you how Carter had a choice. As you stated earlier this is not slavery. Sign a contract, honor the contract or retire. But as a *Free Agent* there is not much they can do except keep you for a year longer.

They would had tied him up and locked him in a closet if they _really_ wanted him to stay?

They gave Carter that contract and he did nothing to make the length shorter... so why not honor it?

-Petey


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

Whack Arnolds said:


> Most VC fans are just the people who are infactuated with the pretty aesthetics of the game. The dunks, the 3 pointer, etc.


Why else would you be a fan of the guy?Because he'a good guy?Sure,his charitable donations paint a nice portrait of the man but basketball is entertainment. I'm a fan VC because he's the most exciting player in the league IMO.

Go to the Nets forum. There are a lot of hardcore Jason Kidd fans but they cringe whenever they're reminded of his trade demands.


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

Petey said:


> You can sigh all you want. But I clearly told you how Carter had a choice. As you stated earlier this is not slavery. Sign a contract, honor the contract or retire. But as a *Free Agent* there is not much they can do except keep you for a year longer.
> 
> They would had tied him up and locked him in a closet if they _really_ wanted him to stay?
> 
> ...


Am not going to go into this...you obviously wont budge on this...what I find funny is the fact you said you were all for trading Kidd last year...I wonder why you thought this...you keep bringing up the fact that you sign a contract you have to honor it....you do know Vince isnt a tool or an instrument...there are lots of things that come into consideration when you make a trade demand...you think he just woke up one morning and said heck am done with this franchise, if you read the first post I wrote I said I didnt like the fact he went to the media...but he has every right to demand aa trade from a situation that wasnt good for him...you would be hypocritical if you said you wouldnt look out for the best for you...


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

shookem said:


> If the reason you love basketball is because of one player and not the game itself then your a fairweather NBA fan at best. Those of us that can't live without the game, whether it's the Heat vs Pistons or the varesty team down the street, understand some of the deeper nuances that I now realize you're not capable of.
> 
> The reason I'm a basketball fan is because when I'm not watching, writing, researching, playing, talking, listening, thinking about basketball... I'm asleep.
> 
> :cheers: to those who know what I'm saying.


Even though numerous posters quoted your post and shot it down and exposed it as being one lacking reason,I'll join in.

Vince Carter is the reason I'm a basketball fan. A sport which I found to be dull,I started to regularly watch raptor games for the sole purpose of witnessing Carter dazzle me. While waiting for that jaw-dropping moment,I discovered other things that made me love the game of basketball.

Before you started to watch,write,research,play,talk,listen and think about basketball,there must've been a minor detail that captivated you and made you stick around long enough for you to discover the true beauty of the game of basketball.


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

Petey said:


> Btw, you still have not answered my other question, and I have asked you twice. You want us to forget Vince Carter's last year with the Raptors?
> 
> Should we forget how he helped make basketball popular in Canada, how he won those slam dunk contests and all that good stuff?
> 
> ...


First of all 20 games doesnt equal a year...secondly are you saying we should use 20 games against 6 or so seasons of basketball and I dare any raptor fan come here and tell me Vince tanked any games before those 20 games...And you and I both know people rarely talk about the fact that Vince put the raps on the map but only dwell on the -ves, matter of fact your question should be why do people dwell on the -ves when it comes to Vince and not the +ves also...


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## Intense Enigma (Oct 22, 2005)

Thanks god this Mod is a NETS fan if not.............................men. :eek8:


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

TheGrowth said:


> Am not going to go into this...you obviously wont budge on this...what I find funny is the fact you said you were all for trading Kidd last year...I wonder why you thought this...you keep bringing up the fact that you sign a contract you have to honor it....you do know Vince isnt a tool or an instrument...there are lots of things that come into consideration when you make a trade demand...you think he just woke up one morning and said heck am done with this franchise, if you read the first post I wrote I said I didnt like the fact he went to the media...but he has every right to demand aa trade from a situation that wasnt good for him...you would be hypocritical if you said you wouldnt look out for the best for you...


Actually you missed the main point of my post, where at one point Vince Carter did have the option to leave. You seem to think that the Raptors are evil and would had stalked him to the end of the world. When a player is a free agent, they have their say. Under contract that is or should be a different story, until said players demand trades. I don't understand how they could had forced Carter to stay or sign something he didn't want considering his cousin walked away on his free will, that same offseason Carter got his extension.

I think a good point that no one has mentioned in this thread which is shocking is how the NBA now fine players for trade demands.

Link 

-Petey


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Petey said:


> Ah... there are several factors for Vince Carter's votes going down.
> 
> And I've been calling it even before the All-Star ballots were released.
> 
> ...






> 1) In the East Carter was listed as a Foward; he is no longer a small foward on the Nets. You think he would had gotten as many votes listed as a guard with AI, T-Mac, and Jordan listed as guards too?


But wasn't T-mac been listed as a forward when he was with Orlando?, and yes i do think back in 2003 or 2004 if vc was listed as a forward he would still got voted as a starter but with less votes. Mainly because wade wasn't as popular as he is now....( with Nba live cover).. commercials... etc....



> 2) The Nets have 4 nationally televised games, only 2 before the All Star game, the Heat have 20+ with 13 between when balloting opened until the All Star break. That is a huge amount of extra exposure.


this has very little affect on the number of votes, mainly because they werent that many nationaly televised games when vc was in Toronto...Plus, what does national televised game do basically? Look at Yao, he is leading every1 in votes... All this population in china knows Yao play for the Rockets... they vote for him because he's one of them.. not because he is regularly on Tv....




> 3) Of course the reason you listed, Carter has the whole support of a country, but I saw this arguement on another board. If Carter had so many votes because he was a Raptor, why does Bosh have so few? If people know voting for Wade and AI will keep Carter out of the All-Star game, why are there so few votes for them compared to other players?


- Well let me ask you this? what did bosh do so far?.... did he get them to the playoffs/ did he get them to the second round gmae 7??... did he win a slam dunk contest..? i don't see why people would vote more to bosh than to CV... CV is more athletic with more talent.. and more versatile.. and they both play on the same team.. and basically both of them have not accomplished anything yet....Remember this... when vc came to toronto... he made people in Canada watch basketball.. with his highlights.. also he made the raptors a better team.. he changed the whole idea of Hockey being the main sport in Canada.. Most of these fans were really attached to VC...because he had made a change in their lives...Bosh is a very good player... but i don't see why they should be attached to him and support him the same way they did for vc... because obviously have accomplished barely nothing in his 3 years with Toronto.. compared to vince's first three years in Toronto....





> Btw, you still have not answered my other question, and I have asked you twice. You want us to forget Vince Carter's last year with the Raptors?


sorry i havent seen you ask me this question before.... but i don't know why your asking it? you can forget it or dont forget it that's your choice....But last's performance of VC had to with a lot of factors.. i've already been through them several times.....My point is... the main rason VC was voted as a starter was because he was in Toronto... ( and he got the votes from Toronto fans) .....


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

TheGrowth said:


> First of all 20 games doesnt equal a year...secondly are you saying we should use 20 games against 6 or so seasons of basketball and I dare any raptor fan come here and tell me Vince tanked any games before those 20 games...And you and I both know people rarely talk about the fact that Vince put the raps on the map but only dwell on the -ves, matter of fact your question should be why do people dwell on the -ves when it comes to Vince and not the +ves also...


People by nature are negative and dwell. Then there are also people whom are protective.

-Petey


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## Vinsane (Feb 27, 2005)

you have to look at it like this Vince's numbers werent up because he wasn't allowed to do anything the guy played 30 minutes a game what kind of crap was that how do you sit your best player on the bench in 4th quarters that is just stupid as a vince fan i am just happy that he got out of that situation and he is putting up good numbers once again


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## Vinsane (Feb 27, 2005)

Petey said:


> Ah... there are several factors for Vince Carter's votes going down.
> 
> And I've been calling it even before the All-Star ballots were released.
> 
> ...


You have a huge point why aren't chris bosh votes that high. i guess vince's votes came from over here in the states so my question is where are vince's votes


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> But wasn't T-mac been listed as a forward when he was with Orlando?, and yes i do think back in 2003 or 2004 if vc was listed as a forward he would still got voted as a starter but with less votes. Mainly because wade wasn't as popular as he is now....( with Nba live cover).. commercials... etc....


Revisionism at it's best. No McGrady was listed as a guard. 



> this has very little affect on the number of votes, mainly because they werent that many nationaly televised games when vc was in Toronto...Plus, what does national televised game do basically? Look at Yao, he is leading every1 in votes... All this population in china knows Yao play for the Rockets... they vote for him because he's one of them.. not because he is regularly on Tv....
> 
> - Well let me ask you this? what did bosh do so far?.... did he get them to the playoffs/ did he get them to the second round gmae 7??... did he win a slam dunk contest..? i don't see why people would vote more to bosh than to CV... CV is more athletic with more talent.. and more versatile.. and they both play on the same team.. and basically both of them have not accomplished anything yet....Remember this... when vc came to toronto... he made people in Canada watch basketball.. with his highlights.. also he made the raptors a better team.. he changed the whole idea of Hockey being the main sport in Canada.. Most of these fans were really attached to VC...because he had made a change in their lives...Bosh is a very good player... but i don't see why they should be attached to him and support him the same way they did for vc... because obviously have accomplished barely nothing in his 3 years with Toronto.. compared to vince's first three years in Toronto....


If this is true, where are all the Canadian votes?



> sorry i havent seen you ask me this question before.... but i don't know why your asking it? you can forget it or dont forget it that's your choice....But last's performance of VC had to with a lot of factors.. i've already been through them several times.....My point is... the main rason VC was voted as a starter was because he was in Toronto... ( and he got the votes from Toronto fans) .....


I asked it because you keep telling people or asking why they can not forgive the past. BUT you like to bring up the past like you just did above with Vince Carter's accomplishments compared to Bosh's.



-Petey


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

VCFSO2000 said:


> Before you started to watch,write,research,play,talk,listen and think about basketball,there must've been a minor detail that captivated you and made you stick around long enough for you to discover the true beauty of the game of basketball.


yeah, it was when I figured out I couldn't skate and my dad put a basketball in my hands. Ever since then I could care less if there ever was a Jordan, Lebron or Vince, I would've loved basketball either way.

Stars come and go, but the sport stays true, just like my love for the game as oppossed to some over-hyped highlight reel.

What ever it took to get you to like basketball...if you like it for the superstars cool, I like it because it's the sport nearest to my heart, I don't care if VC is playing or the kids down the street. to real ballers, ball is ball, and they gotta feel the game as much as they can.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Petey said:


> Revisionism at it's best. No McGrady was listed as a guard.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> Not forgive him.. i am not asking any of the raptors fan to forgive vince.. All i am saying is that they have to move on already... stop worrying about what vince is doing and worry about your team.. since they hate him so much... why keep talking about him?,,it's like you hate sum1 but you keep talking to him? this is sports.. sh't happens.. they're going to keep whining about it their whole lives?


check the Raptors board and find me the last time someone mentioned Vince's name...


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

shookem said:


> check the Raptors board and find me the last time someone mentioned Vince's name...


a week a go there was a thread there talking about Vince's statue at his old High-school.. which eventually, and obvioulsy, turned into a mocking thread about vince and his mother...


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

I have got to give it to Petey....the man has excellent arguementative skills....even raptor fans cant prove their poin as good as he has...


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

shookem said:


> yeah, it was when I figured out I couldn't skate and my dad put a basketball in my hands. Ever since then I could care less if there ever was a Jordan, Lebron or Vince, I would've loved basketball either way.
> 
> Stars come and go, but the sport stays true, just like my love for the game as oppossed to some over-hyped highlight reel.
> 
> What ever it took to get you to like basketball...if you like it for the superstars cool, I like it because it's the sport nearest to my heart, I don't care if VC is playing or the kids down the street. to real ballers, ball is ball, and they gotta feel the game as much as they can.


I never said I like the game for its superstars. I said a superstar drew me to the game and that's when I started the discover everything that makes this game great. You either twisted my argument to add credibility to yours or you misread my post. For your sake,I sure hope it's the latter.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

TheGrowth said:


> I have got to give it to Petey....the man has excellent arguementative skills....even raptor fans cant prove their poin as good as he has...


 Not true, you just don't understand where Raptors fans are coming from.


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## Intense Enigma (Oct 22, 2005)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Not true, you just don't understand where Raptors fans are coming from.



So Coors light_Boy explain to us where the RAPS fans are coming from?


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Intense Enigma said:


> So Coors light_Boy explain to us where the RAPS fans are coming from?


He can't if a Raptors fan does it, it's because 'they can't get over Vince leaving'. lol.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Intense Enigma said:


> So *Coors light_Boy* explain to us where the RAPS fans are coming from?


Wait, is that supposed to be an insult?

Anywho, I made a post on this on page 9 or 10 I believe... I'm not in the mood to repeat myself right now.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

I knew if I got involved this thread, I'd do nothing but fight the same fight I've fought too many times, but after 20 pages, I want to get involved, so here goes:

*1998-1999 -* We all remember this Vince, the dunking machine the world grew to love. During this season he averaged _5.36_ free-throws per game, showing you he was driving to the basket with some regularity (I can't find numbers for kind of shot percentages until the _2002-2003_ season). He provided countless highlights and really showed that he was going to be special. He also shot a very respectable 45 FG%, but his 3P% was low (28.8 %). He also averaged over a block, a steal and 5 rebounds per game.

*1999-2000 -* Like the rookie Vince, only better. He averaged 6.7 free-throws per game (a career high), showing that he was driving the basket more than ever. He also increased his field goal percentage to 46.5% and his 3-point percentage to 40.3%. He averaged 25.7 ppg on the season, and was still a dunking machine. He also continued to average over a block, a steal and 5 rebounds per game.

*2000-2001 -* This was Vince's best year. He was driving the lane just as much as ever (tying his 6.7 free-throws per game), shooting 46 FG% and 40.8 3P% and scoring 27.6 a contest. Still averaging his block, steal and 5 rebounds as well roughly 4 assists per game. The Raptors made the second round, and Vince seemed to be on top of the world. Pay-day...

*Offseason -* During the offseason, Vince got payed, and made sure the Raptors payed a lot more players than him as well. He got them to resign Alvin Williams, Antonio Davis and Jerome Williams to long, lucrative contracts, not to mention he got them to sign Hakeem Olajuwon. All of this was by the Raptors organization to keep Vince happy. He had a say in what was done, and that say hurt the Raptors in the long run.

So as of now, the Raptors have done nothing but please Vince and do what he wants and really don't deserve to be turned on.

*2001-2002 -* Vince's first season with a long term contract, and Vince's first season of wear. His scoring dipped to 24.7 ppg while his shooting percentages dipped to 42.8 FG% and 38.7 3P%. He only played in 60 games. By this season, he was averaging 5.1 free-throws per game, a career low, which showed that he probably wasn't driving as much.The Raptors struggled to make the playoffs, and were knocked out in the first round. This was also the first season he stopped averaging at least 1 block a contest (and he never would again, despite doing it in all of his first 3 seasons).

*2002-2003 -* Another year gone by with a contract, another year to stop caring. His scoring dipped to 20.6 a contest (despite his field goal percentage being 46.7%), his 3-point shooting percentage dipped to 34.4% and he was only shooting 3.8 free-throws per game, so he wasn't driving as much. Also, I have data from every season from here on out about where Vince was shooting. This season, the percentage of his shots that were jumpers was at a very high 79%, with 14% being inside shots, 6% being dunks and 1% being tips. His rebounds also dipped to under 5 for the first time in his career. He only played in 42 games, the Raptors missed the playoffs.

*2003-2004 -* A little bit of a come-back season for Vince. His scoring increased to 22.5 ppg, and his free-throws per game rose again to 5.7 a night. Jumpers still made up for 78% of his shots, and his shooting percentage dipped low, 41.7 FG% (38.3 3P%). His assists reached a new career high, but his rebounds stayed below 5 a night again. He also set a new career high in turnovers with 3.05. Vince played in 73 games, but the Raptors missed the playoffs again.

By this point, in the midst of his slide, the Raptors were sticking by him. They still had basically done what he wanted all of the time, and listened to his suggestions. That changed though with the Grunwald going. The Raptors chose Babcock over Doctor J, a move not approved by Carter, and he began to moan shortly after with the trade requests. So the situation might not have been the greatest, but up till now, the organization was doing what he wanted. A quick change without his consent and he wants out? Sounds to me like he was just looking for a reason to ask for out.

*2004-2005 (Raptors) -* The Vince-Raptors marriage finally was cut off, and Vince was traded to the Nets. Up until the trade, Vince was playing the worst basketball of his career. His free-throws per game dipped to 3.6, scoring dipped to 15.9 on horrible percentages, 41.1 FG%, 32.2 3P% and even 69.4 FT% (how does your free-throw percentage, actually all of your percentages go down for such a short period if you're not giving up? They all went back up with the Nets in the same season). Jumpers still made up for 77% of his shots as well. He was only getting 30 minutes a night instead of 38 the season before, but can you blame Mitchell with the way he was playing? His rebounds dipped to 3.3 as well. He lasted 20 games as a Raptor.

*2004-2005 (Nets) -* Rejuvenation. I know I'm not the only one who finds it odd that his play goes back to a prime level as soon as he's traded. He hadn't played at this level since his 3rd season, and could possibly be playing even better. His scoring jumped to 27.5 ppg, while his percentages jumped to 46.2 FG%, 42.5 3P% and 81.7 FT%. All (excpet for FG%, which is 0.6 away) are career bests. Actually his entire statline was practically a career best (highlighted career-bests means they're from this short period with the Nets):

_Averages -_ 27.5 ppg/5.9 rpg/4.7 apg/1.47 spg/46.2 FG%/42.5 3P%/81.7 FT%/6.8 FTG

_Career bests -_ 27.6 ppg/*5.9 rpg*/4.8 apg/1.57 spg/46.7 FG%/*42.5 3P%*/*81.7 FT%*/*6.8 FTG*

His points per game, assists per game, steals per game and field goal percentage were the second best of his career, nothing dropped below second best. He led this New Jersey team to the playoffs, and played like he wanted to almost every step of the way. Something interesting, if you project out his 04-05 Raptors stats to the same minutes as the 04-05 Nets Vince, it looks something like this:

*Raptors -* 20.3 ppg/4.2 rpg/4.0 apg/4.6 FTG/41.1 FG%/32.2 3P%/69.4 FT%

*Nets -* 27.5 ppg/5.9 rpg/4.7 apg/6.8 FTG/46.2 FG%/42.5 3P%/81.7 FT%

One final thing, Vince's amount of jumpers dropped to 70%, causing his inside shots to rise to 23% (if you forgot, it was at about 78%/14% for roughly the past 3 seasons).

I don't care if Vince didn't like Toronto, to give up like he did is pathetic and never the way to go about getting yourself traded. If Vince actually played up to par, the Raptors might actually be decent as of now, or they would have at least gotten something decent in return for him.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

..

I think that pretty much seals the deal. [/thread]


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Vince Carter didn't perform when he didn't want to, even when he was under contract. He plays hard for money, and gets passive after he gets a big contract. That *******.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Rebuttle anyone? Having the thread die as soon as I joined isn't what I had in mind.


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## Whack Arnolds (Dec 5, 2005)

Yup, Ras sealed it with that extensive break down of why real basketball fans were so dissapointed in Vince. It wasn't because we don't like him, but b/c we're so dissapointed that he didn't continue to elevate his game and become the player he should have been. Maybe he is back on the right track right now. He has been playing good as of late.


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

WTChan said:


> Vince Carter didn't perform when he didn't want to, even when he was under contract. He plays hard for money, and gets passive after he gets a big contract. That *******.


The most stupid comment have ever read on here...so Vince was playing for a contract last season when he and Kidd lead the nets to the playoffs....I guess he is also playing for a contract right now...

And regarding Ras are you saying Vince held a gun to raptors management's heads and forced them to sign the aforementioned players....what kind of management gives into the whims of its star player...definitely one who didnt know what it was doing...and you tell me what other options would the raps have gone after if they didnt sign the players you claim Vince forced them into doing....how many free agents have the raptors been able to attract to Toronto...I like the fact that you have been able to break down all his stats yet you dont take into account the fact that management has basically done nothing to better the situation, how many coaches between that period...also take into fact after Vince played in the olympics his health has never been the same and Ras if am right I thought Vince was only accused of giving up the first 15 games of last season and you saying his been doing this for much longer...and Whack Arnold why dont you come up with some credible arguements of your own and stop hiding behind that pathetic excuse of being a true basketball fan or expert....


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

In all of these arguements, you people fail to mention one person, Jason Kidd. Probably the greatest floor general in the nba, he DEMANDS your attention and your best out on the court. Vince Carter's rejuvenation was not brought on by the happiness of leaving Toronto as some of you put it, it had to do with kidd who expected carters best every single night. All vc wanted to do was play and follow the best, i dont believe he ever wanted to step up and lead a team and an entire country. The pressure for some is unbearable.


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## GoDWade (Jul 25, 2005)

Ras said:


> Rebuttle anyone? Having the thread die as soon as I joined isn't what I had in mind.


some people can still find reasons to show that it was the Raptors fault and Vince is not found guilty



BUT yeah rebuttal, come on!


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

Well I guess it's both VC's and the Raptors' fault. Since the Raptors made a crucial mistake by not hiring Dr. J (hell they didn't even take the interview seriously) and hired Rob Babcock, who is pretty much of an idiot. The fans boo VC because he tanked the Raptors for like about 1-2 seasons. Usually many injuries that VC had during his tanking days aren't serious, many of them were minor injuries that would've took only a quarter to look at so that he would be able to return. 

Don't forget on how he said he didn't want to dunk when he was a Rap, and then when he arrives to NJ, he's high flying and doing all those fancy air borne moves.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

TheGrowth said:


> And regarding Ras are you saying Vince held a gun to raptors management's heads and forced them to sign the aforementioned players..


No, why in the world would I say anything similar to that? He forced the Raps to sign them because he probably wouldn't have stayed if we didn't. All those signings were to make Vince happy and stay.



> ..what kind of management gives into the whims of its star player...definitely one who didnt know what it was doing..


You're kidding right? Haven't most people who are defending Vince saying he left because the organization mistreated him and he didn't have a say in things, when the star player should? Is that not a big premise of this entire argument?



> ..and you tell me what other options would the raps have gone after if they didnt sign the players you claim Vince forced them into doing....how many free agents have the raptors been able to attract to Toronto..


I don't know, but if they didn't need to keep Vince happy, they wouldn't have jumped on the first decent players they could get and tie them all down long term. Not to mention these are all players Vince specifically liked.



> ..I like the fact that you have been able to break down all his stats yet you dont take into account the fact that management has basically done nothing to better the situation, how many coaches between that period..


Even if the management wasn't doing much to better the situation (which I'm not saying they were doing), that doesn't justify giving up on your team. If Vince never got them to sign all of those players, they could have potentially had more flexibility to improve the roster, instead of having big contracts that they had to move.



> ..also take into fact after Vince played in the olympics his health has never been the same..


Not exactly, after Vince got payed, a lot of minor injuries kept him out for longer than they should have. He was milking every injury he could get; star players should want to be on the court and help their team at every possible chance, and play through the pain at times.



> ..and Ras if am right I thought Vince was only accused of giving up the first 15 games of last season and you saying his been doing this for much longer..


Well looking at all of that, it does look like it's more than those 20 games, it was just much more evident in those 20 games.




I'm also surprised no one has mentioned anything about the "flair" play, where he basically told the Sonics bench which play the Raptors were running, which is a ***** move if I ever saw one.


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## TheGrowth (Dec 21, 2005)

Ras said:


> No, why in the world would I say anything similar to that? He forced the Raps to sign them because he probably wouldn't have stayed if we didn't. All those signings were to make Vince happy and stay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Both you and I can never know what would have happened if the raps had not signed those players to long term contracts...am just going by what I can see right now...and thats not too many players want to play in Canada....heck didnt Vince have to beg a couple of players to come play for the raps...remember Cutino he and Vince were buddies he didnt want to come play down there...From all I have seen raps management only care about making money and not into winning...

Its interesting regarding that flair play that Reggie Evans was the only one who heard it...and the guy directly guarding Vince Ray Allen didnt hear a thing...didnt the raps score on that said play anyways....and who won that game, am not too sure on that one...

And regarding injuries come on now Ras...who goes out and tries to get injured......the guy has injury issues..he said it himself he'd rather wait and heal than risk even more injuries

Here's my take on the whole tanking thing...accept it or not....I have followed Vince ever since his mainland high days...I really dont see him as the kind of guy that would willingly go out and sabotage a team....for him its more of a mental issue....its hard to motivate yourself when you have given up on something....his play decreased dramatically..fans, management, coach..it was hard to see anyone siding with Vince..but anyways thats just my take of it


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## Roy Abundah (Jan 1, 2006)

keep on bumpin


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

TheGrowth said:


> The most stupid comment have ever read on here...so Vince was playing for a contract last season when he and Kidd lead the nets to the playoffs....I guess he is also playing for a contract right now...


Like I said, Carter performs when he wants to. He didn't like Toronto, so he didn't perform. He likes New Jersey, so he's performing. Was it that difficult to lead the Nets to the playoffs? They were a lock 2/3 thru the season, because of their division. And even this year, New Jersey is first in the Atlantic, with the .500 Sixers in second place.


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## Roy Abundah (Jan 1, 2006)

WTChan said:


> Like I said, Carter performs when he wants to. He didn't like Toronto, so he didn't perform. He likes New Jersey, so he's performing. Was it that difficult to lead the Nets to the playoffs? They were a lock 2/3 thru the season, because of their division. And even this year, New Jersey is first in the Atlantic, with the .500 Sixers in second place.



let me see that bump..............bump bu-bu-bu-bump


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

WTChan said:


> Like I said, Carter performs when he wants to. He didn't like Toronto, so he didn't perform. He likes New Jersey, so he's performing. *Was it that difficult to lead the Nets to the playoffs?* They were a lock 2/3 thru the season, because of their division. And even this year, New Jersey is first in the Atlantic, with the .500 Sixers in second place.


This has got to be the most ignorant comments have read on this board in quite a while


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

Hbwoy said:


> This has got to be the most ignorant comments have read on this board in quite a while


Yep..I saw it earlier..Thought I misread it because it was so bizarre..and moved on.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

TheGrowth said:


> Both you and I can never know what would have happened if the raps had not signed those players to long term contracts...am just going by what I can see right now...and thats not too many players want to play in Canada....heck didnt Vince have to beg a couple of players to come play for the raps...remember Cutino he and Vince were buddies he didnt want to come play down there...From all I have seen raps management only care about making money and not into winning...


I see that as ignorance. If they were so interested in making money, they probably would've put more thought into keeping Carter. CB4 isn't the moneymaker VC was/is. And I really don't think players have a problem with Toronto, at least not anymore than a team like the Hawks who are in a losing situation. Any winning team can attract free agents, and at the time, Toronto looked very promising.



> Its interesting regarding that flair play that Reggie Evans was the only one who heard it...and the guy directly guarding Vince Ray Allen didnt hear a thing...didnt the raps score on that said play anyways....and who won that game, am not too sure on that one...


If I remember correctly, it was 3 players who heard it (anyone know for sure?). But either way, what gain would it be to Reggie to make a fake rumour about Vince spreading plays? That's idiotic to do spontaneously. It doesn't matter if they scored on that play, or who won the game, the fact that he told the opposing team which play they were running is vile.



> And regarding injuries come on now Ras...who goes out and tries to get injured......the guy has injury issues..he said it himself he'd rather wait and heal than risk even more injuries


OK, but every player goes through small injuries, and plays through them because they could still play. Vince on the other hand would claim he can't play from these small injuries, and sit games until he felt like coming back. He may not have faked any, but he sure did milk every single one he could get.



> Here's my take on the whole tanking thing...accept it or not....I have followed Vince ever since his mainland high days...I really dont see him as the kind of guy that would willingly go out and sabotage a team....for him its more of a mental issue....its hard to motivate yourself when you have given up on something....his play decreased dramatically..fans, management, coach..it was hard to see anyone siding with Vince..but anyways thats just my take of it


It may be hard to motivate yourself when you have given up on something, but why did he give up in the first place? The team did everything they could to please him, and he sat back and watched the cash pile instead of playing.

No matter your situation, you should never flat out give up. Think about how much worse the Raptors are than they could have been had Vince played at a high level consistently? They could have gotten a much better end of the deal had he been playing good, and they potentially even be in the playoffs.


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

Ras said:


> I see that as ignorance. If they were so interested in making money, they probably would've put more thought into keeping Carter. CB4 isn't the moneymaker VC was/is. And I really don't think players have a problem with Toronto, at least not anymore than a team like the Hawks who are in a losing situation. Any winning team can attract free agents, and at the time, Toronto looked very promising.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh and he said he didn't want to dunk like during November in the season where VC got traded to NJ. That's the reason why fans came to watch him. Now he doesn't want to dunk because he gave up on the team. Another reason why Raptors fans booed him for eternity. First the unwillingness to play with such minor injuries, then the unwillingness to show the fans the reason why they paid to watch VC. 

By the way, you've been repped for this.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

4BiddenKnight said:


> Oh and he said he didn't want to dunk like during November in the season where VC got traded to NJ. That's the reason why fans came to watch him. Now he doesn't want to dunk because he gave up on the team. Another reason why Raptors fans booed him for eternity. First the unwillingness to play with such minor injuries, then the unwillingness to show the fans the reason why they paid to watch VC.
> 
> By the way, you've been repped for this.


Seriously i don't know where you guys come up with Vince doesn't play through minor injuries thing?

There was an article a while back in which Mo Pete and Vince himself talked about how he used to play through those serious injuires which even got worse cuz he played through them. How is that not being tough? I'll try to find the link.



> Oh and he said he didn't want to dunk like during November in the season where VC got traded to NJ.


Okay, the "i don't wanna dunk anymore" comments was a joke on part of Vince which the raptors media made a big deal out of it.



> That's the reason why fans came to watch him. Now he doesn't want to dunk because he gave up on the team.


I don't even know how to respond to this, some of the post here are hilarious and not even worth commenting....but anyways let me set this straight, so you're saying he didn't wanna dunk anymore that season cuz he gave up on the team? I'm sorry to tell you that he dunked the next night after making those "i don't wanna dunk" joke comments, so i guess he didn't give up on the team, right? :wink:


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Ras said:


> I see that as ignorance. If they were so interested in making money, they probably would've put more thought into keeping Carter. CB4 isn't the moneymaker VC was/is. *And I really don't think players have a problem with Toronto, at least not anymore than a team like the Hawks who are in a losing situation. Any winning team can attract free agents, and at the time, Toronto looked very promising.*


Nope, even Vince said it himself that he had to beg some big names freeagents to come play for the raptots but they won't. You and I both know that very well so why are you trying to deny that fact?



> If I remember correctly, it was 3 players who heard it (anyone know for sure?). But either way, what gain would it be to Reggie to make a fake rumour about Vince spreading plays? That's idiotic to do spontaneously. It doesn't matter if they scored on that play, or who won the game, the fact that he told the opposing team which play they were running is vile.


Lets say those rumors were true, do you reallly know the motive behind him doing that? maybe its a positive one to fool those Sonics players knowing they'd inform their coach, only Carter knows the answer to that.



> OK, but every player goes through small injuries, and plays through them because they could still play. Vince on the other hand would claim he can't play from these small injuries, and sit games until he felt like coming back. He may not have faked any, but he sure did milk every single one he could get.


I think when i find the link to my earlier post, you'd take those comments back. Vince played through those injuries and its the main reason it had gotten worst. Toronto media never mention it cuz they want Vince to look bad in the eyes of the whole league as a 'soft' player when he truley is a 'tough' one. If you read that article (which i'll try to find the link) you'd appreciate the guy more and actually feel sorry for him.



> It may be hard to motivate yourself when you have given up on something, but why did he give up in the first place? *The team did everything they could to please him*, and he sat back and watched the cash pile instead of playing.


Are you sure about that, did they hire Dr. J?



> No matter your situation, you should never flat out give up. Think about how much worse the Raptors are than they could have been had Vince played at a high level consistently? They could have gotten a much better end of the deal had he been playing good, and they potentially even be in the playoffs.


Different opinions, i thought the team gave up on him more than he did since he wasn't part of their future plan anymore.


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## Outlaw83 (Dec 25, 2005)

> Seriously i don't know where you guys come up with Vince doesn't play through minor injuries thing?


Yes, the media really tried to do this guy wrong by portraying him to be soft when really he's not. Even AI said that VC has one of the biggest hearts in the NBA in Steven A. Smith's show last summer. 

As far as the whole "dont want to dunk anymore" thing, it was a joke and i believe he did have a nice little dunk the very next game after that comment.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Air Fly said:


> Are you sure about that, did they hire Dr. J?


When you look at how Vince's other options for the team backfired almost miserably, would you listen to him for his choice of GM, the most important part of the team?

Either way, they gave Dr. J a shot just like they gave all the other candidates a shot. They didn't think he was the best guy for the job, so they didn't give it to him. They listened to Vince by speaking to him in the first place... but again, I trust the big guys a bit more than Vince on who to pick as GM. You know, just a bit.


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## Ason_Kidd4MVP (Nov 21, 2005)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> When you look at how Vince's other options for the team backfired almost miserably, would you listen to him for his choice of GM, the most important part of the team?
> 
> Either way, they gave Dr. J a shot just like they gave all the other candidates a shot. They didn't think he was the best guy for the job, so they didn't give it to him. They listened to Vince by speaking to him in the first place... but again, I trust the big guys a bit more than Vince on who to pick as GM. You know, just a bit.


The big guys who picked the same guy who drafted that stiff Aruajo and made one of the worst trades in NBA history? :rofl: 

I think the big guys would of been better off listening to Vince on that one LOL


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> When you look at how Vince's other options for the team backfired almost miserably, would you listen to him for his choice of GM, the most important part of the team?
> 
> Either way, they gave Dr. J a shot just like they gave all the other candidates a shot. They didn't think he was the best guy for the job, so they didn't give it to him. They listened to Vince by speaking to him in the first place... but again, I trust the big guys a bit more than Vince on who to pick as GM. You know, just a bit.


Who knows if Dr J would have done a better job with that franchise right now. Babcock isnt exactly a genius by any standards

And to the guy who keeps bringing up Vince said he wouldnt dunk anymore, do you understand he was joking and he dunked the very next game in a RAPS uniform.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Ason_Kidd4MVP said:


> The big guys who picked the same guy who drafted that stiff Aruajo and made one of the worst trades in NBA history? :rofl:
> 
> I think the big guys would of been better off listening to Vince on that one LOL


 Actually considering Babcock only had three weeks of preparation for the draft, and the "Aruajo" (sic) was made under a lot of pressure from the interim GM, and that he's pretty much redeemed himself for that pick with a great draft in 2005.... and considering you should know that when a player publically demands for a trade and purposely tanks to get himself traded, you're not going to get full on value for him, AND since said trade isn't even completed yet (one more draft pick coming) so it's impossible to say if it was one of the worst trades in NBA history yet...

I think the big guys made the right decision. The Raptors have a much brighter future now than we would ever have with Vince and his bonehead GM-playing decisions. Whether it all pans out remains to be seen.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

^Your a raptor fan, how many raptor fans were calling for Vince trades a few seasons ago. Some of them act like a limb was cut of when he was traded when in all reality you all were calling for his head a few seasons ago


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Hbwoy said:


> Who knows if Dr J would have done a better job with that franchise right now. Babcock isnt exactly a genius by any standards


You're right, we don't know what Dr. J would have done. But I know this - with Vince on the team we would have been tied down to making band-aid signings, we would probably have a borderline playoff team - that is, if he played like he did in Jersey last year, which by the looks of it would have been highly unlikely. And if things didn't improve, which they probably wouldn't have, and Bosh probably wouldn't have gotten enough touches either - another key factor - he would have probably harped on the same trade demands again the season after and we'd be making the same excuses for himself and his mother.

He needed a change of scenery, so he got it and started playing better, unfortunately he did it in a way completely unbeneficial for the team that did so much for him.

Either way, I like Babcock's plan so far. He's no genius, but he's done a good job in building the foundation for a quality team IMO. Furthermore, he's not satisfied with the mediocrity of being a borderline playoff team, and that's the one thing I really like. He's also building this as a *team* primarily, not a one-horse show. The team had an awful November, but has made strides since and you can tell the plan is starting to work, slowly but surely... and that's a good thing.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Hbwoy said:


> ^Your a raptor fan, how many raptor fans were calling for Vince trades a few seasons ago. Some of them act like a limb was cut of when he was traded when in all reality you all were calling for his head a few seasons ago


 Nah, that's not true. There were maybe a select few individuals who were calling for his head... but most Raptors fans just wanted him to play like he used to, and play less passively. Being unselfish is one thing, but to us he went beyond that, to a point where it hurt the team.

Speaking for myself, I still had faith in Vince up until the first few games of last season, when it became obvious he wasn't putting forth the same effort he used to, even in the past couple seasons. My opinion was, of course, validated when he suddenly stepped up his play in New Jersey. JKidd was obviously a big part of that, and there's only one JKidd in the league... but Vince was just playing unmotivated. He didn't run with the breaks Rafer started, didn't try on defense, shot horrible percentages, and hurt the team. That's when I turned on him... but not before he turned on us.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Hbwoy said:


> This has got to be the most ignorant comments have read on this board in quite a while


The Atlantic was the weakest division last year. You don't agree?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

WTChan said:


> The Atlantic was the weakest division last year. You don't agree?


Right but you said anyone could have lead them to the playoffs. Did you manage to look at that roster. Do you know why there were kidd trade demands? Anyways thats all in the past


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Budweiser_Boy said:


> Nah, that's not true. There were maybe a select few individuals who were calling for his head... but most Raptors fans just wanted him to play like he used to, and play less passively. Being unselfish is one thing, but to us he went beyond that, to a point where it hurt the team.
> 
> Speaking for myself, I still had faith in Vince up until the first few games of last season, when it became obvious he wasn't putting forth the same effort he used to, even in the past couple seasons. My opinion was, of course, validated when he suddenly stepped up his play in New Jersey. JKidd was obviously a big part of that, and there's only one JKidd in the league... but Vince was just playing unmotivated. He didn't run with the breaks Rafer started, didn't try on defense, shot horrible percentages, and hurt the team. That's when I turned on him... but not before he turned on us.


You have very valid points. But there are always two sides to the story. If Vince hadnt been traded, Bosh wouldnt have gotten as much touches as he is getting now. Playing with Vince would have just hurt his game


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Couldn't let this slip just yet...



Air Fly said:


> Nope, even Vince said it himself that he had to beg some big names freeagents to come play for the raptots but they won't. You and I both know that very well so why are you trying to deny that fact?


It wouldn't surprise me, most star players recruit for their team. If you think that any city that's winning won't attract free agents, you're kidding yourself.



> Lets say those rumors were true, do you reallly know the motive behind him doing that? maybe its a positive one to fool those Sonics players knowing they'd inform their coach, only Carter knows the answer to that.


I don't think it's a positive one, considering they did run a "flair" play. What positive could come out of telling the opposing team which play you're running? I don't think he was trying to do anything positive whatsoever.



> I think when i find the link to my earlier post, you'd take those comments back. Vince played through those injuries and its the main reason it had gotten worst. Toronto media never mention it cuz they want Vince to look bad in the eyes of the whole league as a 'soft' player when he truley is a 'tough' one. If you read that article (which i'll try to find the link) you'd appreciate the guy more and actually feel sorry for him.


Some of the injuries he came across weren't injuries he has to sit out for. He milked his injuries whether you like it or not.



> Are you sure about that, did they hire Dr. J?


That was after the fact. He had given up seasons ago already. Also, making one decision against your star player shouldn't drive them to stop trying altogether, they had listened to Vince for every year up to this point really. I even addressed this in my earlier posts in this thread, I see this as an excuse for Vince to give up and say the franchise isn't listening to me anymore.



> Different opinions, i thought the team gave up on him more than he did since he wasn't part of their future plan anymore.


How did they give up on him if they did everything they could to please him? After pay-day, his level of play dropped, and they were still by his side. The only reason they may have given up on him, is because he already gave up on them.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Sorry for being picky, but why was this moved to the Nets board? This is more of a general dicussion than anything.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

Ras said:


> Sorry for being picky, but why was this moved to the Nets board? This is more of a general dicussion than anything.


Was moved by an NBA General Mod, HearToTemptYou.

I'll speak with him later on where it should go.

Several threads were moved to team forums today.

-Petey


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Petey said:


> Was moved by an NBA General Mod, HearToTemptYou.
> 
> I'll speak with him later on where it should go.
> 
> ...


OK, thanks Petey.


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## CaptainFunk (Jan 3, 2006)

I'm too lazy to read 435423 pages so I'll just type my own opinion. I hold nothing against him for wanting to be traded, I live in Toronto and I'm probably the only person in this city that isn't hunting for his head. Put yourself in his position, the Raptors were suckin hard. I get incredibly pissed at people who hate on Vince becaues of that, it was more than a year ago too, so let it be. Be happy for him that he's now doing well on a different team. Vince was my favorite player and the Raptors were my favorite team, this still remains the same. I love the Raptors, but I still root for VC's success in New Jersey.


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## justasking? (Oct 1, 2005)

CaptainFunk said:


> I'm too lazy to read 435423 pages so I'll just type my own opinion. I hold nothing against him for wanting to be traded, I live in Toronto and I'm probably the only person in this city that isn't hunting for his head. Put yourself in his position, the Raptors were suckin hard. I get incredibly pissed at people who hate on Vince becaues of that, it was more than a year ago too, so let it be. *Be happy for him that he's now doing well on a different team*. * Vince was my favorite player and the Raptors were my favorite team, this still remains the same. I love the Raptors, but I still root for VC's success in New Jersey*.


This is probably one of the most intelligent posts that I have ever read. It is nice to see that some people are so mature and levelheaded. While some people may have their strong reasons for "hating" or disliking VC and have very strong feelings against VC, it would be quite a breather to see that there are posters like CaptainFunk out there who see things in a very different way. :clap: :cheers:


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Ras said:


> That was after the fact. *He had given up seasons ago already*. Also, making one decision against your star player shouldn't drive them to stop trying altogether, they had listened to Vince for every year up to this point really. I even addressed this in my earlier posts in this thread, I see this as an excuse for Vince to give up and say the franchise isn't listening to me anymore.


Sorry! but did i just read this right, gave up on them seasons ago? do you mind telling me what "seasons" are those?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Somehow I just dont feel this thread belongs here


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Here _Air Fly_, I posted this on page 20.



Ras said:


> I knew if I got involved this thread, I'd do nothing but fight the same fight I've fought too many times, but after 20 pages, I want to get involved, so here goes:
> 
> *1998-1999 -* We all remember this Vince, the dunking machine the world grew to love. During this season he averaged _5.36_ free-throws per game, showing you he was driving to the basket with some regularity (I can't find numbers for kind of shot percentages until the _2002-2003_ season). He provided countless highlights and really showed that he was going to be special. He also shot a very respectable 45 FG%, but his 3P% was low (28.8 %). He also averaged over a block, a steal and 5 rebounds per game.
> 
> ...


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

Ras said:


> Here _Air Fly_, I posted this on page 20.


Regarding the Raptors doing "one thing" that Carter didn't agree with so he asked out, making you think he was looking for an excuse. R_iiiii_ght...I notice you're conveniently leaving out the 4 coaches in 6 years, the Chris Bosh draft pick (in retrospect was the right move) and his ongoing lockerroom altercations with Sam Mitchell. Between the booing on his own home court and all that crap going on, can you really blame him for his relatively poor performance in Toronto last year? Who do you actually think is going to perform well under those circumstances?


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

PHeNoM Z28 said:


> Regarding the Raptors doing "one thing" that Carter didn't agree with so he asked out, making you think he was looking for an excuse. R_iiiii_ght...I notice you're conveniently leaving out the 4 coaches in 6 years, the Chris Bosh draft pick (in retrospect was the right move) and his ongoing lockerroom altercations with Sam Mitchell. Between the booing on his own home court and all that crap going on, can you really blame him for his relatively poor performance in Toronto last year? Who do you actually think is going to perform well under those circumstances?


I didn't conveniently leave out anything. They hadn't gone through 4 coaches by the time he was in his 4th season, when the slacking began. They hadn't got to the point of Chris Bosh being drafted (even though it was the smart move), and they hadn't yet hired Sam Mitchell. He hadn't recieved boos yet, and wasn't being blamed for Toronto's losing as of yet. Those may be reasons why he gave up later (that still doesn't justify giving up), but he had given up before that already.


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

Ras said:


> I didn't conveniently leave out anything. They hadn't gone through 4 coaches by the time he was in his 4th season, when the slacking began. They hadn't got to the point of Chris Bosh being drafted (even though it was the smart move), and they hadn't yet hired Sam Mitchell. He hadn't recieved boos yet, and wasn't being blamed for Toronto's losing as of yet. Those may be reasons why he gave up later (that still doesn't justify giving up), but he had given up before that already.


Slacking? DUDE he was freaking injured! He was playing on a gimp leg half of the season. How ridiculous can you be with these arguments?

Also to counter some of your arguements regarding his 4th season...

Here's some of his averages pre injury in a pool of 44 complete games (couldn't find the box score for 2 games).

PPG - 26.4
RBP - 5.5
APG - 4.6
*BPG - 1.0*
FTAPG - 5.4 (same from his rookie campaign, and we all know he drove then)

So don't give me that crap that he wasn't trying...he was right on his career averages before the injuries.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

In Tor, VC was 15ppg. In JJ, VC was 27 ppg. Jason Kidd is magically raises his ppg by 12? The only player than can add 12 ppg to a player is the player himself. Carter didn't try in Toronto, he tries in NJ. Some of you blame his 15 ppg on the injury, so how did he avg 27 ppg on the Nets? That is an excuse for his lack of motivation.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

PHeNoM Z28 said:


> Slacking? DUDE he was freaking injured! He was playing on a gimp leg half of the season. How ridiculous can you be with these arguments?
> 
> Also to counter some of your arguements regarding his 4th season...
> 
> ...


The injuries were all part of him not giving his all. He milked his injuries. He'd sit out for longer periods of time than needed, and not try as hard and blame it on the injuries.

Some examples:

*Nov. 2, 2002 -* Vince goes down with a left quadricep strain. Tests results showed no structural damage to the knee. Now there are 3 types of quadricep strains; a mild, moderate and severe. Considering there was no structural damage, a moderate and severe strain are out of the question; leaving Carter with a mild strain.



> A mild or (grade I) strain, which is a slightly pulled muscle without tearing of muscle or tendon fibers. There is no loss of strength.


He sat for 25 days.

*Dec. 10, 2002 -* Vince suffers a mild strain to the patella tendon during practice.



> A grade 1 strain is a mild strain. There is a slight pull without obvious tearing (it is microscopic tendon tearing). There is no loss of strength, and the tendon is the correct length.





> ...it is normal for someone in his situation to feel fine and able to perform...


He sat for 49 days.




I also apologize for taking a couple days to respond.


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## KoBe & BeN GoRdOn! (Aug 4, 2005)

i dont think u can


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

Ras said:


> The injuries were all part of him not giving his all. He milked his injuries. He'd sit out for longer periods of time than needed, and not try as hard and blame it on the injuries.
> 
> Some examples:
> 
> ...


The same knee that had suffered injury the previous year and made him miss the playoffs. Why not be cautious? No sense in risking the rest of your career over a few early season games.


Ras said:


> *Dec. 10, 2002 -* Vince suffers a mild strain to the patella tendon during practice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again, the Patella Tendon is important to the knee. Why risk FURTHER injury and potentially risking the rest of your career over early season games? We all saw what a Patella Tendon injury can do with Damon Stoudamire this year.

There is no 'milking' of injuries going on here. That knee ruined his previous season, I'm sure the organization was backing him 100% on that bench.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

PHeNoM Z28 said:


> The same knee that had suffered injury the previous year and made him miss the playoffs. Why not be cautious? No sense in risking the rest of your career over a few early season games.
> 
> 
> Again, the Patella Tendon is important to the knee. Why risk FURTHER injury and potentially risking the rest of your career over early season games? We all saw what a Patella Tendon injury can do with Damon Stoudamire this year.


I understand not risking further injury, but sitting for about a month or more both times, when the player should be at full strength is unacceptable in my eyes. Especially when most players would play in the position he was in.

All I'm really saying is his injuries weren't serious enough for him to sit out that long, and he could have played through them, but chose to sit out for an extended period of time.


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

Ras said:


> I understand not risking further injury, but sitting for about a month or more both times, when the player should be at full strength is unacceptable in my eyes. *Especially when most players would play in the position he was in.*


Really? Like who? I remember when Michael Jordan missed some early season games with an ingrown toe-nail! :laugh:

You're missing the point dude, if he reinjured that knee beyond 'mild' that could have ended his career. He could have become another Grant Hill and made millions sitting on the bench for the rest of his career. Why would you go out there and risk that as opposed to strengthening your knee even more to make sure it will probably never happen again? You think THAT is unacceptable?


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

PHeNoM Z28 said:


> Really? Like who? I remember when Michael Jordan missed some early season games with an ingrown toe-nail! :laugh:


Well considering I got this quote...



> ...it is normal for someone in his situation to feel fine and able to perform...


..from the Raptors press release records back when Vince was still adored, I don't think it's a lie.



> You're missing the point dude, if he reinjured that knee beyond 'mild' that could have ended his career. He could have become another Grant Hill and made millions sitting on the bench for the rest of his career. Why would you go out there and risk that as opposed to strengthening your knee even more to make sure it will probably never happen again? You think THAT is unacceptable?


I didn't miss the point, I know exactly what you're saying. What I'm saying is that those injuries weren't serious enough to worry about ending your career (at least from what I know). I understand stopping play if you injure yourself and are worried about worsening the injury, but these 2 specific injuries weren't serious enough to worry about that, and he probably could've played from day one and not sat at all.

Here's an example of a player who will play through pain:

*Allen Iverson -* In the 03-04 season, as of March 3rd, Iverson had missed a total of 18 games with the following injuries: right knee effusion (1), right knee hematoma (1), right knee contusion (10), right index finger fracture (2) and a right shoulder contusion (4). With Vince's two injuries, both of which he would have been full-strength, he missed 33 games.


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

Ras said:


> Well considering I got this quote...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You _are_ missing the point. The point is that the VERY SAME knee is what made him miss a lot of games the previous season. If it was just a one-time injury then I'd be right there with you wondering why he missed so much time. BUT, it's the SAME freak'n knee that's causing him reoccuring problems. Reoccuring means there IS a problem with it and it needs to be fixed before you go out there and risk your career over meaningless games. It is definately serious if it's a reoccuring problem in your knee.

AI makes a lot of players (99%) in this league look bad by playing through injuries, not just Carter. Everybody is different and AI might just have a natural ability to heal better than others.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

PHeNoM Z28 said:


> You _are_ missing the point. The point is that the VERY SAME knee is what made him miss a lot of games the previous season.


No it's not. When he missed those 49 days, it was the other knee, and his first injury to that knee of his career if I'm not mistaken. Again, I didn't miss your point.



> If it was just a one-time injury then I'd be right there with you wondering why he missed so much time.


:cheers:



> BUT, it's the SAME freak'n knee that's causing him reoccuring problems. Reoccuring means there IS a problem with it and it needs to be fixed before you go out there and risk your career over meaningless games. It is definately serious if it's a reoccuring problem in your knee.


:cheers:



> AI makes a lot of players (99%) in this league look bad by playing through injuries, not just Carter. Everybody is different and AI might just have a natural ability to heal better than others.


Fair enough, I'll look for another candidate to compare injuries too.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

*ahem*


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Hello...hello...hello...is there anybody in there...just smile if you can hear me...is there anyone home...


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Ras said:


> Hello...hello...hello...is there anybody in there...just smile if you can hear me...is there anyone home...


 :banana: :clap: :cheers:


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> :banana: :clap: :cheers:


Care to respond to the topic at hand?


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Ras said:


> Care to respond to the topic at hand?


I already shared my thoughts on this topic, don't feel the need to add more bro.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> I already shared my thoughts on this topic, don't feel the need to add more bro.


But the topic has progressed since you last posted, and I won't let this thread die, I enjoy this argument too much.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Ras said:


> But the topic has progressed since you last posted, and I won't let this thread die, I enjoy this argument too much.


Well, let me go over the thread one more time and if there is a thing to add, i would gladly do that.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> Well, let me go over the thread one more time and if there is a thing to add, i would gladly do that.


 :cheers:


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

> 2004-2005 (Raptors) - The Vince-Raptors marriage finally was cut off, and Vince was traded to the Nets. Up until the trade, Vince was playing the worst basketball of his career. His free-throws per game dipped to 3.6, scoring dipped to 15.9 on horrible percentages, 41.1 FG%, 32.2 3P% and even 69.4 FT% (how does your free-throw percentage, actually all of your percentages go down for such a short period if you're not giving up? They all went back up with the Nets in the same season). Jumpers still made up for 77% of his shots as well. He was only getting 30 minutes a night instead of 38 the season before, but can you blame Mitchell with the way he was playing? His rebounds dipped to 3.3 as well. He lasted 20 games as a Raptor.


To be honest, I felt that Sam Mitchel coaching system hurt Vince alot and took away his confident as a player. I mean when a coach doesn't have confident or his trust in you as a Superstar in this league thats a bad start for both of you and would lead to unhealthy relationship on and off the court (rumors, VC slamming Mitchel on a lookeroom table) So it was a bad start for not just Carter but also the raptors. Moreover, Sam would regularly bench him if he had a bad start to a game...That doesn't work well with Carter if you know him well as a player cuz he's a rhythm shooter and needs touches to get into groove of the game..Well most Superstars in this league do Kobe, A.I, Tmac etc. Sam Mitchel didn't treat him like one and that IMO obviously hurt Vince's confident. Also you gotta take into account that he was playing just *30 minutes per game* and averaging around 16 points per game, so if you added another 10 minutes, don't you think his average could've been 25+ per game?

Yes, I do blame Sam for it cuz he didn't handle Vince's situation well...He should've known that Carter is an all-star in this league and this is isn't the right way to treat your franchise player. Can you explain how do you take your Star out of the game or bench him regardless if he was hot or not? a big mistake for a rookie coach thinking benching Superstars players in this league would work.

Also, just cuz his % went down that means he gave up on the team? What logic is this, A.I shot around 41% in 02/03 season and shot 38% in 03/04 season, i guess he gave up on his team that year too? Why not just say that VC was having a bad year shooting wise and also coaching wise, he's not perfect you know...Plus having a hall of fame point guard in Kidd does benefit you instead of a guy named Rafer...So there was no surprise he started playing well in Jersey add to the fact that he's finally happy being on a team thats not looking to rebuild and their main focus is to contend every year for a champoinship.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> To be honest, I felt that Sam Mitchel coaching system hurt Vince alot and took away his confident as a player. I mean when a coach doesn't have confident or his trust in you as a Superstar in this league thats a bad start for both of you and would lead to unhealthy relationship on and off the court (rumors, VC slamming Mitchel on a lookeroom table) So it was a bad start for not just Carter but also the raptors. Moreover, Sam would regularly bench him if he had a bad start to a game...That doesn't work well with Carter if you know him well as a player cuz he's a rhythm shooter and needs touches to get into groove of the game..Well most Superstars in this league do Kobe, A.I, Tmac etc. Sam Mitchel didn't treat him like one and that IMO obviously hurt Vince's confident. Also you gotta take into account that he was playing just *30 minutes per game* and averaging around 16 points per game, so if you added another 10 minutes, don't you think his average could've been 25+ per game?
> 
> Yes, I do blame Sam for it cuz he didn't handle Vince's situation well...He should've known that Carter is an all-star in this league and this is isn't the right way to treat your franchise player. Can you explain how do you take your Star out of the game or bench him regardless if he was hot or not? a big mistake for a rookie coach thinking benching Superstars players in this league would work.
> 
> Also, just cuz his % went down that means he gave up on the team? What logic is this, A.I shot around 41% in 02/03 season and shot 38% in 03/04 season, i guess he gave up on his team that year too? Why not just say that VC was having a bad year shooting wise and also coaching wise, he's not perfect you know...Plus having a hall of fame point guard in Kidd does benefit you instead of a guy named Rafer...So there was no surprise he started playing well in Jersey add to the fact that he's finally happy being on a team thats not looking to rebuild and their main focus is to contend every year for a champoinship.


Well I tried to show that Vince had started to give up before that season even began, but I can work with this. If you think Vince could've averaged 25+ ppg if given more minutes during this time period, you should've read the rest of my post:



> *2004-2005 (Nets) -* Rejuvenation. I know I'm not the only one who finds it odd that his play goes back to a prime level as soon as he's traded. He hadn't played at this level since his 3rd season, and could possibly be playing even better. His scoring jumped to 27.5 ppg, while his percentages jumped to 46.2 FG%, 42.5 3P% and 81.7 FT%. All (excpet for FG%, which is 0.6 away) are career bests. Actually his entire statline was practically a career best (highlighted career-bests means they're from this short period with the Nets):
> 
> _Averages -_ 27.5 ppg/5.9 rpg/4.7 apg/1.47 spg/46.2 FG%/42.5 3P%/81.7 FT%/6.8 FTG
> 
> ...


As for A.I shooting low, he had one bad year, and was consistently a low percentage shooting; him dropping from 41% to 39% isn't that big a deal. Vince's percentages on the other hand slowly slid as the years went on until he became a "Iverson" percentage shooter.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

this thread is way too long but if you're comparing vince's production last year with the nets and raptors...

has anybody mentioned Jason Kidd??

Those alley-oops and passes insides should have contirbuted to Vince shooting a higher percentage ,more percentage of shots taken in the paint, and more points.

Kidd is much much better than Rafer Alston everybody.


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