# Anyone Listen to AM 570 This Morning??



## Kobester888 (Jul 8, 2005)

Just want to know if anyone was listening. Mitch was on but I only caught the end of it. Also my friend told me that they were also talking about how Kobe was at a grocery store talking trash about the whole team.


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## Maddocks (Jun 16, 2006)

kobe shouldnt talk trash about his team. bynum ill give you. but odom or luke nah.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

Maddocks said:


> kobe shouldnt talk trash about his team. bynum ill give you. but odom or luke nah.



Why talk trash on even Bynum? In truth Bynum for Kidd is a no brainier, but its not Bynums fault Mitch has no nuts.

For the record, Bynum a 19 year old baby, youngest player to ever be drafted in the NBA is showing more maturity now than Kobe has shown in his entire career. And this is coming from a Kobe jocker.


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## Maddocks (Jun 16, 2006)

because bynum is a kid and acts like one on the court. when he punked shaq he couldnt even keep his emotions in and hit him.

gets a foul and looks at the refs like it wasnt his fault at all. didnt you see him hit me first? 

hes tall enough for the sky hook, yet doesnt want to do it at all. why get trained at something if your not going to use it. you have the height and with that arm up high who can block it?

ill back kobe for ages, but to me its always lakers first. trading kobe will not help the lakers, and trading bynum will help them.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

i was against bynum for kidd. if kidd were 30, i'd say do it... but he's not. 34 is just too old. giving up a 19 year old player with potential for a very good point guard (he'll probably be good for 2-3 more years) is not worth it.

it was a no brainer to me.. as in NO.


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

afobisme said:


> i was against bynum for kidd. if kidd were 30, i'd say do it... but he's not. 34 is just too old. giving up a 19 year old player with potential for a very good point guard (he'll probably be good for 2-3 more years) is not worth it.
> 
> it was a no brainer to me.. as in NO.


So you want to waste Kobe's prime, who we already know is great, and have a first round exit playoff team every year? 

I'd like to trade the youngster and get us some help where it would immediately pay off, even if Bynum turns out great.

I understand your point, but I'd like to get rid of Bynum and get us a player who can get us to the next level right away, and stop wasting Kobe's prime years.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

Eternal said:


> So you want to waste Kobe's prime, who we already know is great, and have a first round exit playoff team every year?
> 
> I'd like to trade the youngster and get us some help where it would immediately pay off, even if Bynum turns out great.


is trading bynum for kidd the only option we have? i don't think so, since mitch says there were so many calls from other teams for bynum last year.


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

afobisme said:


> is trading bynum for kidd the only option we have? i don't think so, since mitch says there were so many calls from other teams for bynum last year.


Last year yes, his stock I believe has took a hit after his second half of the season. It's not the only option, but I really don't see many deals here... where the main package is surrounding Bynum. It's always seeming like we need to include Odom AND Bynum... for a superstar, where in the scenario in where we had a chance for Bynum to leave for a superstar like Kidd.

I believe that was a rare opportunity that we passed up on obtaining Kidd virtually for just Bynum.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

afobisme said:


> i was against bynum for kidd. if kidd were 30, i'd say do it... but he's not. 34 is just too old. giving up a 19 year old player with potential for a very good point guard (he'll probably be good for 2-3 more years) is not worth it.
> 
> it was a no brainer to me.. as in NO.


I agree with you. I was against it to, because Bynum is so young and shown so much potential, but also because having Jason Kidd last year would NOT have made this team a serious championship contender anyway. As long as Phoenix and San Antonio are as strong as they are, the Lakers are a lot more than just one player away from challenging them for the Western Conference title. If the deal would have put them at that level for the next 2-4 years, it's something to seriously consider, otherwise it's an absolute waste to trade away your future anchor at the center position.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

Maddocks said:


> because bynum is a kid and acts like one on the court. when he punked shaq he couldnt even keep his emotions in and hit him.
> 
> gets a foul and looks at the refs like it wasnt his fault at all. didnt you see him hit me first?
> 
> ...



I had no idea that all you need to have to do a sky hook is have the height. Thats why there have been so many people over the ages that could do what Kareem did.

Give me a break. The kid got fouled on a dunk by Shaq on the other end of the floor and got emotional. It was his first big outing against a center far more dominate than he probably will ever be. 

And my responses wasn't about trading Bynum. It was talking trash on players on your team. I don't think the video even had Kobe really talking trash, but just underlaying in his mind common sense. Allstar for potential. Win now, instead of later. I was merely saying that any other form of trash talk, such as personal digs and insults would be pathetic.


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## L.A. Guy (Jun 8, 2007)

I was listening ot am570 last night and supposedly Bynum never wanted to play basketball. Hid father advised him to play ball because he has the height and the money is their as well. So maybe this is one of the reasons why Bynum just doesnt show any consistancy in improvement, his heart is not in it.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

L.A Guy said:


> I was listening ot am570 last night and supposedly Bynum never wanted to play basketball. Hid father advised him to play ball because he has the height and the money is their as well. So maybe this is one of the reasons why Bynum just doesnt show any consistancy in improvement, his heart is not in it.


Am I the only one that realizes the kid is 19 years old!?! I mean, what does everybody expect from him? I thought he was pretty damn consistent for someone who was essentially playing his first season of significant minutes. It's not like he was out there for 30 minutes each and every game, Phil would start him for a stretch, then he would be lucky to get 10 minutes per for the next handful of games when Kwame would briefly heat up. How is the guy supposed to continue to improve and become more consistent if he doesn't get consistent playing time?


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

Showtime87 said:


> Am I the only one that realizes the kid is 19 years old!?! I mean, what does everybody expect from him? I thought he was pretty damn consistent for someone who was essentially playing his first season of significant minutes. It's not like he was out there for 30 minutes each and every game, Phil would start him for a stretch, then he would be lucky to get 10 minutes per for the next handful of games when Kwame would briefly heat up. How is the guy supposed to continue to improve and become more consistent if he doesn't get consistent playing time?


What I expect for him is to get traded, and for him to get us some help through the trade to put us in a position to win now, and stop wasting Kobe's prime.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

The only problem with that is if you trade him and Odom for O'Neal you're basically in the same position you were before. But maybe worse because you now have a big hole in the middle. Whether it's Kwame Brown or Chris Mihm it's still a big hole.


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## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

Showtime87 said:


> Am I the only one that realizes the kid is 19 years old!?! I mean, what does everybody expect from him? I thought he was pretty damn consistent for someone who was essentially playing his first season of significant minutes. It's not like he was out there for 30 minutes each and every game, Phil would start him for a stretch, then he would be lucky to get 10 minutes per for the next handful of games when Kwame would briefly heat up. How is the guy supposed to continue to improve and become more consistent if he doesn't get consistent playing time?



coming from posters in bynum's age bracket? suprised?

would kidd have made the lakers better? easily. but kidd would not have put the lakers over the top. i don't have a problem trading bynum, who may be great. i just hate big for small (unless we're talkin' about caron here). the west is very much about size (hello, it's basketball), and the lakers aren't really loaded at the power positions. 

i know these are rough, and potentially dark days for laker fans, but the ripping of bynum by venting fans and THE BULLY alike, is in no way, shape, or form helping the situation. there are a few more deserving members of this franchise to lambaste than an nba infant.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

A couple of thoughts about what's being discussed here:

1- Getting Kidd (wether for a package including Bynum or not) would solve nothing unless the Nets would be willing to take some Laker scrubs in return. Kidd is great and all, but how many of you honestly think that a Kidd/Kobe/Walton/Odom/Brown starting 5 could compete for a championship? It obviously wouldn't. Without a post presence, the Lakers would never get past San Antonio or Phoenix. So, it's a moot point: adding Kidd to the roster would maybe get us on the second round of the playoffs. And out. And it would still have to be determined if Kidd (a prototipical pass-first PG who needs the ball) could play well with Kobe. In the triangle offense, no less (cause Kidd can't shoot).

2- Between Bynum and Odom, i'd pick Bynum without thinking twice. Odom, at 27, woun't develop new tricks. He is what he is: a mild-mannered SF with the body of a PF, not a menace on offense, a good rebounder and passer and with a low bball IQ. He won't improve much. Bynum, on the other hand, has enormous potential. Dude's only 19 and we talk about him with the dissatisfaction as if he should be averaging 20-10. A teenager. I'm not saying he is the next Jermaine O'Neal. But i AM saying that, even if he doesn't become an all star center, he could very weel be the anchor for the Lakers' Center spot for the next 15 years... That, for me, means MUCH, MUCH more than 2/3 years of a declining Kidd or 4/5 years of an underachieving Lamar Odom;

3- I couldn't care less about "wasting Kobe's prime years". For all it seems, if the Lakers don't gut their roster to try and bring a superstar player to appease Kobe, he'll jump ship sooner or later. And if you think that Kobe + KG + a bunch of scrubs will bring a title (or more) to LA you'd better think again. It ain't a certainty, but my prognosys would be that only in the third year, and reaaranging the roster (i don't know how, cause the Lakers have no money) to fit Kobe and KG would the Lakers compete for a title. And then what? One championship and then KG's too old?

4- Kobe won't lead the Lakers anywhere. He doesn't have the demeanor. The Game against Phoenix showed it. His radio diatribe showed it. Still, we are blindly thinkink that he can be Magic; or Kareem; or even Shaq. He can't. And even if he could, he wouldn't. Kobe is turning his back to the very own fans that supported him while half of America was calling him a rapist. And he is quitting on the team in violent fashion. Hey, i could understand the best player in the league getting fed up with losing for 3 straight years. Bt Kobe's GAME doesn't show it. He is still the same player: all about me. Taking ridiculous shots being triple-teamed. Refusing to move the ball. Refusing to play hard-nosed defense. All he seems to want is to have the ball in his hands. To shoot it. Sorry, Kobe. Kareem understood what it took to win relying on others. Magic, also. Even Shaq, who once was calling Kobe "the best player in the world". Yeah, that's right: the guy you couldn't get along with. Kobe is not a winner. Why do we keep thinking that he is? Talking about "wasting Kobe's prime years" and such?

5- I say trade Kobe. Get a few young quality players and some picks to rebuild the team. Fire Jackson and bring in a coach that can develop young players. Get rid of Odom. Let's build for the future. I'd prefer a team contending for the WCF for 6/7 straight years than a championship (at most= around Kobe. Get serious: what are the chances a Kobe-led team will overcome the Spurs? Or Phoenix? In 2 years, where will the Oden-led Blazers be with an owner with deep pockets? Do you think Cuban is asleep at the wheel? I say rebuild. Trade Jordan2 ro the Bulls. Get Deng and another youngster. Develop Bynum,. Create a team identity. And then the Lakers will be allright. Sooner or later, LBJ/Oden/Wade/another superstar wil lget on board. 

/rant


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> 4- Kobe won't lead the Lakers anywhere. He doesn't have the demeanor. The Game against Phoenix showed it. His radio diatribe showed it.


I think he can. He needs a better supporting cast though. Kobe's in limbo right now. He's somehwere in between trying to do things excessively in order to win but he also hurts his team's progress by taking over. IN all fairness though, he really doesnt have the adequate talent to compete in the mighty West.


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## KillWill (Jul 1, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> 4- Kobe won't lead the Lakers anywhere. He doesn't have the demeanor. The Game against Phoenix showed it. His radio diatribe showed it. Still, we are blindly thinkink that he can be Magic; or Kareem; or even Shaq. He can't. And even if he could, he wouldn't. Kobe is turning his back to the very own fans that supported him while half of America was calling him a rapist. And he is quitting on the team in violent fashion. Hey, i could understand the best player in the league getting fed up with losing for 3 straight years. Bt Kobe's GAME doesn't show it. He is still the same player: all about me. Taking ridiculous shots being triple-teamed. Refusing to move the ball. Refusing to play hard-nosed defense. All he seems to want is to have the ball in his hands. To shoot it. Sorry, Kobe. Kareem understood what it took to win relying on others. Magic, also. Even Shaq, who once was calling Kobe "the best player in the world". Yeah, that's right: the guy you couldn't get along with. Kobe is not a winner. Why do we keep thinking that he is? Talking about "wasting Kobe's prime years" and such?
> 
> 
> /rant



ouch. sometimes the truth hurts. the part of this that really hits home is the part about the fans. he is pretty much turning his back on the fans that have carried him through it all. those who defended him. those who were true witnesses. we have witnessed it all. he may go, or he may stay. most of us will learn to forgive. but if he goes, and even if he wins, he will never be loved like he was here in LA. when the nba world booed, we cheered. 


i should have known better than to fall in love with the game of a jordan jr. i guess i'll keep waiting for my lil magic.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> A couple of thoughts about what's being discussed here:
> 
> 1- Getting Kidd (wether for a package including Bynum or not) would solve nothing unless the Nets would be willing to take some Laker scrubs in return. Kidd is great and all, but how many of you honestly think that a Kidd/Kobe/Walton/Odom/Brown starting 5 could compete for a championship? It obviously wouldn't. Without a post presence, the Lakers would never get past San Antonio or Phoenix. So, it's a moot point: adding Kidd to the roster would maybe get us on the second round of the playoffs. And out. And it would still have to be determined if Kidd (a prototipical pass-first PG who needs the ball) could play well with Kobe. In the triangle offense, no less (cause Kidd can't shoot).
> 
> ...


:clap: :clap: :clap: You nailed it buddy. :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> A couple of thoughts about what's being discussed here:
> 
> 1- Getting Kidd (wether for a package including Bynum or not) would solve nothing unless the Nets would be willing to take some Laker scrubs in return. Kidd is great and all, but how many of you honestly think that a Kidd/Kobe/Walton/Odom/Brown starting 5 could compete for a championship? It obviously wouldn't. Without a post presence, the Lakers would never get past San Antonio or Phoenix. So, it's a moot point: adding Kidd to the roster would maybe get us on the second round of the playoffs. And out. And it would still have to be determined if Kidd (a prototipical pass-first PG who needs the ball) could play well with Kobe. In the triangle offense, no less (cause Kidd can't shoot).
> 
> ...


PauloCatarino > Mitch Kupchak


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## Maddocks (Jun 16, 2006)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> I had no idea that all you need to have to do a sky hook is have the height. Thats why there have been so many people over the ages that could do what Kareem did.
> 
> Give me a break. The kid got fouled on a dunk by Shaq on the other end of the floor and got emotional. It was his first big outing against a center far more dominate than he probably will ever be.
> 
> And my responses wasn't about trading Bynum. It was talking trash on players on your team. I don't think the video even had Kobe really talking trash, but just underlaying in his mind common sense. Allstar for potential. Win now, instead of later. I was merely saying that any other form of trash talk, such as personal digs and insults would be pathetic.


makes sense, my mistake.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> 4- Kobe won't lead the Lakers anywhere. He doesn't have the demeanor. The Game against Phoenix showed it. His radio diatribe showed it. Still, we are blindly thinkink that he can be Magic; or Kareem; or even Shaq. He can't. And even if he could, he wouldn't. Kobe is turning his back to the very own fans that supported him while half of America was calling him a rapist. And he is quitting on the team in violent fashion. Hey, i could understand the best player in the league getting fed up with losing for 3 straight years. Bt Kobe's GAME doesn't show it. He is still the same player: all about me. Taking ridiculous shots being triple-teamed. Refusing to move the ball. Refusing to play hard-nosed defense. All he seems to want is to have the ball in his hands. To shoot it. Sorry, Kobe. Kareem understood what it took to win relying on others. Magic, also. Even Shaq, who once was calling Kobe "the best player in the world". Yeah, that's right: the guy you couldn't get along with. Kobe is not a winner. Why do we keep thinking that he is? Talking about "wasting Kobe's prime years" and such?


This is why I normaly do not like rants; the poster is just to angery......

*"He is still the same player: all about me. Taking ridiculous shots being triple-teamed. Refusing to move the ball. Refusing to play hard-nosed defense. All he seems to want is to have the ball in his hands. To shoot it."* Good example of a blind rant. It almost completely omits what happen during the beginning of the year and during the all-star game where Kobe was more than happy to pass the ball and get the team rolling. while his defensive issues were more of his knee and the energy he had to output in offense. It is true that Kobe may not have done enough of this to warrant a change in GAME, but say exactly that, you can't make it seem like Kobe never tried or doesn't care.

*"Sorry, Kobe. Kareem understood what it took to win relying on others. Magic, also. Even Shaq, who once was calling Kobe "the best player in the world". Yeah, that's right: the guy you couldn't get along with. Kobe is not a winner. Why do we keep thinking that he is? Talking about "wasting Kobe's prime years" and such?"* As far as those players understanding to rely on players: Magic had Kareem and Worthy while Kareem had Magic and Worthy. Shaq had Kobe...and great supporting cast. In other words, they had relyable players. You must be fair in your assumtion unless your saying that Magic, Kareem, or Shaq alone could have made this team better. While that may be true, we have to take in account that Kobe is a shooting guard and impacts the game differently.

*"Kobe is turning his back on his own fans that supported him"* very true. But if he's not happy in a situation for whatever reason, he has the right to change his situation (as long as it's support in his contract) if he feels like. Kobe has his own life and us fans holding him hostage is just as selfess as any other accused act of Kobe, since we realy don't know what's going on in Kobe's mind or life. It's hard to see it that way (for me too) but the NBA is a business and Kobe does not owe us anything....nor do we owe him anything. The sooner fans could understand that the less there will be posts on how a player is bad by leaving a team.


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## ceejaynj (Oct 9, 2005)

Kobester888 said:


> Just want to know if anyone was listening. Mitch was on but I only caught the end of it. Also my friend told me that they were also talking about how Kobe was at a grocery store talking trash about the whole team.


Interesting, if it's true. As great as Kobe is, he is starting to take this tantrum a little too far. I, for one, am getting so sick and tired of this ongoing soap opera. Aside from J.R. Ryder, I cannot recall a Lakers player who was equally good AND disruptive at the same time. Kobe is NOT helping things at all. Trade him.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

The One said:


> This is why I normaly do not like rants; the poster is just to angery......
> 
> *"He is still the same player: all about me. Taking ridiculous shots being triple-teamed. Refusing to move the ball. Refusing to play hard-nosed defense. All he seems to want is to have the ball in his hands. To shoot it."* Good example of a blind rant. It almost completely omits what happen during the beginning of the year and during the all-star game where Kobe was more than happy to pass the ball and get the team rolling. while his defensive issues were more of his knee and the energy he had to output in offense. It is true that Kobe may not have done enough of this to warrant a change in GAME, but say exactly that, you can't make it seem like Kobe never tried or doesn't care.


"beggining of the year"? "all star game"? Isn't that too small of a sample?
Hey, it's not that i am accusing Kobe of not trying. What i don't like to see is that he doesn't play smart ball. The moment things get tough in a game, Kobe takes upon himself to shoot the Lakers up. That usually didn't work. 

I know all about the Larry Bird Rule of "if you are a shooter, you keep shooting them", but if Kobe is hoisting 30 shots a game and the team keeps losing, maybe there's a better way to go around, no? 



> *"Sorry, Kobe. Kareem understood what it took to win relying on others. Magic, also. Even Shaq, who once was calling Kobe "the best player in the world". Yeah, that's right: the guy you couldn't get along with. Kobe is not a winner. Why do we keep thinking that he is? Talking about "wasting Kobe's prime years" and such?"* As far as those players understanding to rely on players: Magic had Kareem and Worthy while Kareem had Magic and Worthy. Shaq had Kobe...and great supporting cast. In other words, they had relyable players. You must be fair in your assumtion unless your saying that Magic, Kareem, or Shaq alone could have made this team better. While that may be true, we have to take in account that *Kobe is a shooting guard and impacts the game differently.*


IMHO, Kobe has the quickness, agility and handles to be more of a distributer for the team, That, combined with him constantly beeing double-teamed should be enough to spread the floor, keep the ball moving and finding a teammate in a good position to score. It's not all assists. The pass that leads to an assist should be Kobe's forte.

Another thing: performance is the reflection of leadership. You may not be a vocal leader (Kobe ain't), but if you are hustling, sharing the ball, working hard on defese, your teammates will work harder. If you keep going into iso's on offense and shooting from the distance, your teammates won't feel part of the offense. And they will be lackluster on defense. It doesn't take Sun Tzu to say it.



> *"Kobe is turning his back on his own fans that supported him"* very true. But if he's not happy in a situation for whatever reason, he has the right to change his situation (as long as it's support in his contract) if he feels like. Kobe has his own life and us fans holding him hostage is just as selfess as any other accused act of Kobe, since we realy don't know what's going on in Kobe's mind or life. It's hard to see it that way (for me too) but the NBA is a business and Kobe does not owe us anything....nor do we owe him anything. The sooner fans could understand that the less there will be posts on how a player is bad by leaving a team.


[/QUOTE]

You are missing the point.
I don't feel that Kobe has any *obligation *to stay in LA if he doesn't like it. He can't be held hostage bt the franchise (even if he has a contract that demands him to play there). In this case, it's the other way around: Kobe is strong-holding the franchise. For what it seems, it's like "hey, you can't trade me, and i don't want to stay here. So i'll give you 2/3 teams i would like to play for and you make it work". That's not a proper way to behave. And when your public actions are portraying that kind of demands, you are being a punk.

IMHO, Kobe IS obliged to RESPECT the fanchise that has been paying him millions of dollars since he was a teenager. If you want to leave, you go to the GM or Team President and discuss it. You DON'T go public behaving like a moron.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Maddocks said:


> because bynum is a kid and acts like one on the court. when he punked shaq he couldnt even keep his emotions in and hit him.
> 
> gets a foul and looks at the refs like it wasnt his fault at all. didnt you see him hit me first?
> 
> ...


You do realize that Kobe intentionally elbowed Mike Miller and showed no remorse for it right? At least Bynum apologized. And you do realize that Kobe turns to yell at the ref every time he misses a layup and turns the ball over? I'm not saying you are wrong about Bynum, but Kobe isn't much better in the maturity department.

About the trade, Kwame would have to be included. That means we trade our two centers for Jason Kidd. While talent wise, it's obviously slanted towards the Lakers favor. But how do we become any different than the Nets with our non-existent frontcourt? Even worse, we become the Nets in the Western Conference!

C - Turiaf
PF - Odom, Cook
SF - Walton, Evans
SG - Kobe, Smush
PG - Kidd, Farmar, Vujacic

This lineup is maybe a sixth seed. We get thrashed on the boards and in the paint. We're stuck with Kidd's albatross contract and Kobe throws a tantrum and leaves in the two years. While I hate the lack of initiative to improve this team, passing on this trade was the right move.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> *"beggining of the year"? "all star game"? Isn't that too small of a sample?*
> *Hey, it's not that i am accusing Kobe of not trying. What i don't like to see is that he doesn't play smart ball. The moment things get tough in a game, Kobe takes upon himself to shoot the Lakers up. That usually didn't work. *
> *I know all about the Larry Bird Rule of "if you are a shooter, you keep shooting them", but if Kobe is hoisting 30 shots a game and the team keeps losing, maybe there's a better way to go around, no? *
> *IMHO, Kobe has the quickness, agility and handles to be more of a distributer for the team, That, combined with him constantly beeing double-teamed should be enough to spread the floor, keep the ball moving and finding a teammate in a good position to score. It's not all assists. The pass that leads to an assist should be Kobe's forte."*


Very true again. I'm assuming that you don't mind the Lakers losing as long as Kobe tried to get everyone involved. Kobe knows how to share the ball. Unfortunately for you, however, Kobe's confidence in himself doesn't allow him to take anything for chance. This sort of selfishness can go both ways as far as good or bad. I guess it depends on if the teams wins or not. But the team has put a situation on Bryant where either way Kobe approaches the game, it's always ends in mix results. The team has not proven to make open shots when needed and last years playoffs showed all of that: How many open jumpers did Walton miss? ... How many did Smush and Farmer miss? The only player that looked good was Odom. This is just my opinion; I don't see Kobe's selfishness as a bad trait, he just needs the right team and system where he can do what he does best (score, defense, ....and score) to wins games.



PauloCatarino said:


> *"Another thing: performance is the reflection of leadership. You may not be a vocal leader (Kobe ain't), but if you are hustling, sharing the ball, working hard on defese, your teammates will work harder. If you keep going into iso's on offense and shooting from the distance, your teammates won't feel part of the offense. And they will be lackluster on defense. It doesn't take Sun Tzu to say it."*


I don't know about this man.This really makes it look like you've only watched Kobe the last half of this past season. Kobe has always hustled and warked hard on defense since he been in the league and most of the time he seemed to be the only one that cared during a game! It's impossible for you to say that he lacks performance leadership. Unless of course you're only convinced if wins are generated <- but that will be an unfair criteria as I have stated before. (This past year was a fluke on his defense though because of a leg surgury and even Kobe himself said that defense was going to be his top priority this summer). 



PauloCatarino said:


> *"In this case, it's the other way around: Kobe is strong-holding the franchise. For what it seems, it's like "hey, you can't trade me, and i don't want to stay here. So i'll give you 2/3 teams i would like to play for and you make it work". That's not a proper way to behave. And when your public actions are portraying that kind of demands, you are being a punk.... If you want to leave, you go to the GM or Team President and discuss it. You DON'T go public behaving like a moron"*


As I always do, I'm going to mess with semantics here; It's best just to go by what we know and what was said: Kobe does not want to be here and there are only three teams that he would like to go to. Just because it is strong-holding a Franchise doesn't mean that's was his intention to do so - at least I'm hoping that not what you are implying. But if strong holding is his intentions, we still have to remember that we are dealing with a human being that's employed; it's best to give him benifit of the doubt as if he's an employee. He is an employee that's want's to leave. As long as there is no rules against his next actions, he will do what he feals is necesary to leave and go where he wants to. Just because his actions make him look like a punk shouldn't stop him from doing what he feels necesary to get the job done. And, just like a corporation, if there is no clause where he owes the company something, then he shouldn't owe anybody anything...not even fans. 



PauloCatarino said:


> *"IMHO, Kobe IS obliged to RESPECT the fanchise that has been paying him millions of dollars since he was a teenager. "*


This is where we ask ourselves (And Kobe) what does Kobe really care more about: Money, or overall Atmosphere. And I say this because most fans seems to switch sides on this topic - They respect a player who cares more about basketball and winning than just receiving a check. Then when that player is tired of losing and wants to leave, we say that the should tolerate the situation for the team's sake since the team pays him millions. So by want you have been seeing, what do you think Kobe cares about more?


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

The One said:


> Very true again. I'm assuming that you don't mind the Lakers losing as long as Kobe tried to get everyone involved. Kobe knows how to share the ball. Unfortunately for you, however, Kobe's confidence in himself doesn't allow him to take anything for chance. This sort of selfishness can go both ways as far as good or bad. I guess it depends on if the teams wins or not. But the team has put a situation on Bryant where either way Kobe approaches the game, it's always ends in mix results. The team has not proven to make open shots when needed and last years playoffs showed all of that: How many open jumpers did Walton miss? ... How many did Smush and Farmer miss? The only player that looked good was Odom. This is just my opinion; I don't see Kobe's selfishness as a bad trait, he just needs the right team and system where he can do what he does best (score, defense, ....and score) to wins games.
> 
> I don't know about this man.This really makes it look like you've only watched Kobe the last half of this past season. Kobe has always hustled and warked hard on defense since he been in the league and most of the time he seemed to be the only one that cared during a game! It's impossible for you to say that he lacks performance leadership. Unless of course you're only convinced if wins are generated <- but that will be an unfair criteria as I have stated before. (This past year was a fluke on his defense though because of a leg surgury and even Kobe himself said that defense was going to be his top priority this summer).
> 
> ...


First of all, good post.

That being said:
1- I've been a Laker fan for almost 20 years. And yes, Kobe Bryant is worlds better than Byron Scott ever was. But Kobe is just another SG who plays for my team. There will be others. I see Kobe the same way i see any other Laker player since i've been watching. Heck, if i was watching back then, and if there were a BBForum, i would be blasting Magic Johnson (my favourite player ever) when he went public wanting to be traded from LA since the coach - i don't remember his name - wasn't giving him the role he wanted in the Kareem-led Lakers).

2- Kobe's lakadaisical defense has been adressed ad nauseam in this forum. Teh common denominator seems to be that Kobe's defense has suffered since Shaq left and he became the major (or only) offensive option;

3- Kobe messed up by going public in his trade request. That was a stupid move that showed no loyalty to the team. Yes, he has all the rights to want to jump ship. But by going public he injured the franchise, for it instantly lowered his trade value. Don't you think teams will just wait it out knowing that the Lakers can't afford NOT to trade Kobe?

4- I don't know and i don't care what is best for Mr. Kobe Bean Bryant. All i care is what's the best for the Los Angeles Lakers. In all honesty, i'm keen to the idea of starting over again. As i see it, the Lakers won't go far with Kobe (and by going "far" i mean, in the Laker way, winning multiple championships). This is not all Kobe's fault, off course, far from it. The Lakers' management incapability to surround Kobe with talent after the Shaq Trade is to blame. But that doesn't change the facts: where we stand today, and considering the Lakers' future for the next 10 years, it's probably better to rebuild around young players and picks than to try to get Kobe help to win short-term.

5- Keep in mind that my doubts that the Lakers can win with Kobe reside in the notions that (i) LA can't get a superstar player AND apropriate help this year and the following and (ii) Kobe won't tolerate 2 more seasons of losing (and for a Laker, losing means not competing for a championship).


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> 1- I've been a Laker fan for almost 20 years. And yes, Kobe Bryant is worlds better than Byron Scott ever was. But Kobe is just another SG who plays for my team. There will be others. I see Kobe the same way i see any other Laker player since i've been watching. Heck, if i was watching back then, and if there were a BBForum, i would be blasting Magic Johnson (my favourite player ever) when he went public wanting to be traded from LA since the coach - i don't remember his name - wasn't giving him the role he wanted in the Kareem-led Lakers).


 I can respect that.:cheers: 



PauloCatarino said:


> 2- Kobe's lakadaisical defense has been adressed ad nauseam in this forum. Teh common denominator seems to be that Kobe's defense has suffered since Shaq left and he became the major (or only) offensive option;


 I can respect that too. Since Shaq left, his defense has been going down gradually. I just want to wait until next year when his leg is at full strength because this past season was an utterly terrible defensive display by his standards and I'm hoping that was just a fluke :|.



PauloCatarino said:


> 3- Kobe messed up by going public in his trade request. That was a stupid move that showed no loyalty to the team. Yes, he has all the rights to want to jump ship. But by going public he injured the franchise, for it instantly lowered his trade value. *Don't you think teams will just wait it out knowing that the Lakers can't afford NOT to trade Kobe? *


 Unfortunately Kobe did not feel that a trade would have been a discussion unless he went public about it and force Buss to make a move, and by the team claiming to not have any plans to trade him right now even after the outburst proves it. This may look like a bad gamble from Kobe but the situation is still win win if his plan is to simply leave. If they don't trade him he can opt out (it's cruel but possible). To get a different take on it; Kobe may have just given the Lakers their best case scenario. As I said before, The Lakers *will not have traded* Kobe if he told Buss secretly that he wanted a trade or if Kobe said nothing at all during the offseason. That could have been bad for the Lakers because Kobe could have then held his frustration in until he can opt out...thus the Lakers receive nothing for him. Going public was the only way that Buss would have had a thought abouyt trading him - the downside is of course what you mention: it lowers his trade value. But at least the Lakers will receive something. 
So in the End the Lakers would have been scewed in every possibility.
I'm pretty sure you knew this which is why you suggested rebuilding in your beginning rant.


PauloCatarino said:


> 4- I don't know and i don't care what is best for Mr. Kobe Bean Bryant. All i care is what's the best for the Los Angeles Lakers. In all honesty, i'm keen to the idea of starting over again. As i see it, the Lakers won't go far with Kobe (and by going "far" i mean, in the Laker way, winning multiple championships). This is not all Kobe's fault, off course, far from it. The Lakers' management incapability to surround Kobe with talent after the Shaq Trade is to blame. But that doesn't change the facts: where we stand today, and considering the Lakers' future for the next 10 years, it's probably better to rebuild around young players and picks than to try to get Kobe help to win short-term.


 That probably is the best way to go at this point, Let's hope that the Laker personnel is as good as the Sonics personnel - removing old players and starting clean and fresh the right way. .........Who am I kidding? the Lakers need Jerry West or just anybody not Jim Buss to make this work right. (Please make it work right, Buss)



PauloCatarino said:


> 5- Keep in mind that my doubts that the Lakers can win with Kobe reside in the notions that (i) LA can't get a superstar player AND apropriate help this year and the following and (ii) Kobe won't tolerate 2 more seasons of losing (and for a Laker, losing means not competing for a championship).


 Agreed:cheers: 

P.S I'm hoping this is not the last time you will reply because this is a good discussion/debate - and it feels good talking with someone who is mature.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> 4- Kobe won't lead the Lakers anywhere. He doesn't have the demeanor. The Game against Phoenix showed it. His radio diatribe showed it. Still, we are blindly thinkink that he can be Magic; or Kareem; or even Shaq. He can't. And even if he could, he wouldn't. Kobe is turning his back to the very own fans that supported him while half of America was calling him a rapist. And he is quitting on the team in violent fashion. Hey, i could understand the best player in the league getting fed up with losing for 3 straight years. Bt Kobe's GAME doesn't show it. He is still the same player: all about me. Taking ridiculous shots being triple-teamed. Refusing to move the ball. Refusing to play hard-nosed defense. All he seems to want is to have the ball in his hands. To shoot it. Sorry, Kobe. Kareem understood what it took to win relying on others. Magic, also. Even Shaq, who once was calling Kobe "the best player in the world". Yeah, that's right: the guy you couldn't get along with. Kobe is not a winner. Why do we keep thinking that he is? Talking about "wasting Kobe's prime years" and such?
> 
> 
> /rant



Repped, and the post of the off-season in my opinion. I'm a Kobe fan. Will always be a Kobe fan. But he still needs to grow up. Our 19 year old Center seems to be more mature right now than someone who has been the league half the years bynum has been alive. 

I'd rather start over with a core filled with young talent whose hearts are in in it and play like a team, than one that has a superstar that takes the fights public all the time, and *****es about management.

Seriously, a few years back when the Clippers narrowly missed the playoffs before finally making it. When they had Bobby Simmons and not Mobley yet. They were a very fun team to watch because of the chemistry and developing talent. I want that again in Laker Land.

I just want to have fun watching young gives give there heart to win. No more Smush crying. No more Kobe chucking. No more Vlads snow boarding.

I just want a fun core of guys I can cheer for even when they are not winning. To me the only time the ENTIRE last season I saw this from the Lakers is when Lamar was on the court and Kobe wasn't. Lamar is a team mate, and not a superstar. Thats what I love about him.


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## P-Rez25 (Nov 24, 2006)

Showtime87 said:


> Am I the only one that realizes the kid is 19 years old!?! I mean, what does everybody expect from him? I thought he was pretty damn consistent for someone who was essentially playing his first season of significant minutes. It's not like he was out there for 30 minutes each and every game, Phil would start him for a stretch, then he would be lucky to get 10 minutes per for the next handful of games when Kwame would briefly heat up. How is the guy supposed to continue to improve and become more consistent if he doesn't get consistent playing time?


after watching LeBron James come into the NBA and be sucessful early, age can no longer be used as an excuse.


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

P-Rez25 said:


> after watching LeBron James come into the NBA and be sucessful early, age can no longer be used as an excuse.


Let's not forget the two play totally different positions, and... everyone learns at different speeds. Lebron is a quick learner... and Bynum just may be slower.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

under p-rez25's rationale, i guess every player is the same.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

Lebron is a freak of nature. Most High School kids don't come into the NBA like that. For two years, and the fact he Bynum plays center. He is doing fine. I expect improvements each year, and so far he has delivered.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

Its not Kobe's will to win that will be his downfall, its his attitude towards other players. 

But in the end nobody is perfect.


I watched the Kobe video(Bynum and Kidd and Kupchack) and thought it wasn't bad at all!

Kobe said a few things but his tone was ok and the only time he got upset was during that few seconds which everyone saw for free before the entire clip was released.

I think Kobe got a bad rap on this video.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

The One said:


> Unfortunately Kobe did not feel that a trade would have been a discussion unless he went public about it and force Buss to make a move, and by the team claiming to not have any plans to trade him right now even after the outburst proves it. This may look like a bad gamble from Kobe but the situation is still win win if his plan is to simply leave. If they don't trade him he can opt out (it's cruel but possible). To get a different take on it; Kobe may have just given the Lakers their best case scenario. As I said before, The Lakers *will not have traded* Kobe if he told Buss secretly that he wanted a trade or if Kobe said nothing at all during the offseason. That could have been bad for the Lakers because Kobe could have then held his frustration in until he can opt out...thus the Lakers receive nothing for him. Going public was the only way that Buss would have had a thought abouyt trading him - the downside is of course what you mention: it lowers his trade value. But at least the Lakers will receive something.
> So in the End the Lakers would have been scewed in every possibility.
> I'm pretty sure you knew this which is why you suggested rebuilding in your beginning rant.


This is where we disagree.

I believe that Kobe's public tantrum lowered his trade value. Other teams' will simply wait it out for the Lakers to become desperate enough to make a proposal (see Shaquille O'Neal). 
As i see it, the proper form would be to Kobe voice his displeasure about the Franchise's future and his role in it and ask for a trade to the GM or Team President. Then, the public message would be something like "there's no untouchables on this team. We will listen any proposals about any player".

Maybe, this way, the Lakers' brass could have some leverage. Like: "what? are you offering Gordon and PJ Brown for Kobe? Are you serious? I'm hanging up the phone unless you are taling Gordon and Deng and something else".


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> This is where we disagree.
> 
> I believe that Kobe's public tantrum lowered his trade value. Other teams' will simply wait it out for the Lakers to become desperate enough to make a proposal (see Shaquille O'Neal).
> As i see it, the proper form would be to Kobe voice his displeasure about the Franchise's future and his role in it and ask for a trade to the GM or Team President. Then, the public message would be something like "there's no untouchables on this team. We will listen any proposals about any player".
> ...


All very true and agreed. And I do believe (as I posted before) that Kobe did lower his value and made the Lakers a possible door mat for other teams. What I said before, however, was that Kobe going public was the only way Buss would of had a pre-thought of trading Bryant. I guarantee (IMO of course ) that if Kobe went secretly, he still would have not been traded - so his high trade value would not have mattered. Unless of course you're saying that Buss isn't trading Kobe now _because_ he went public and lowered his value. (It could be possible but I don't think so): If Buss isn't trading Kobe now, he would not have traded him if the situation was less negatively focused on Buss. That's what I ment in my absurd:biggrin: proclaim that Kobe almost gave the Lakers as a whole "the Best Case Scenario" for the future. So...What will it take for Buss to release his love hold on Kobe and trade him - for the better of the team? We'll find out soon enough.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

The One said:


> All very true and agreed. And I do believe (as I posted before) that Kobe did lower his value and made the Lakers a possible door mat for other teams. What I said before, however, was that Kobe going public was the only way Buss would of had a pre-thought of trading Bryant. I guarantee (IMO of course ) that if Kobe went secretly, he still would have not been traded - so his high trade value would not have mattered. Unless of course you're saying that Buss isn't trading Kobe now _because_ he went public and lowered his value. (It could be possible but I don't think so): If Buss isn't trading Kobe now, he would not have traded him if the situation was less negatively focused on Buss. That's what I ment in my absurd:biggrin: proclaim that Kobe almost gave the Lakers as a whole "the Best Case Scenario" for the future. So...What will it take for Buss to release his love hold on Kobe and trade him - for the better of the team? We'll find out soon enough.


Hmmm... Lets put it this way:

Say Kobe had shut his mouth in public and only adressed his desire to be traded indoors. Wouldn't you think Dr. Buss would take him seriously?

And if so, don't you think the Lakers could get a good offer for Kobe? Let's say Paxsons calling about Lamar Odom, and offering Nocioni and the scrub Thomas. Mitch politely says no, while saying that the Lakers are open to trade anyone for a fair deal. Then Paxson gets all wet: even Kobe?, he asks. Sure, why not? What are you offering?

I'm betting Paxson would offer a whole lot more than he is willing to offer now...


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

****


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Hmmm... Lets put it this way:
> 
> Say Kobe had shut his mouth in public and only adressed his desire to be traded indoors. Wouldn't you think Dr. Buss would take him seriously?
> 
> ...


Well at least this post conforms my assumtion: You do feel that Buss isn't trading Kobe because he called out Him out in public and also because Kobe's value is now too low. That's fine. But Here is my reasons (IMO) why I feel that it's not a even matter of _Buss taken Kobe's demand seriously._ I think it's something that Buss does not wants to do period....:

1.* Buss said recently that their mindset now is to do whatever it takes to help Bryant win a championship*. This could possibly not be Buss's true intentions, but we can only go by his word right now which is implying that Buss want's to win now as much as Kobe does.

2. *Bryant is too huge of an investment.* If what has been said about Buss past plans is true then this makes sence. As long as Bryant is on the Lakers, whether winning or rebuilding, Buss gets money. Kobe is too good at bringing in ticket sales and tv spots.

3. *Bryant will still use his no-trade clause. *That clause gave Kobe a low trade value right when he signed that contract three years ago. The clause itself would have certainly hammered out a lot of trades since Kobe, whether secretly demanding or not, would still like to go to a good team where unfortunately for the Lakers, those teams(as like the Bulls have shown), would still try their best *not *to gut their current good team to get the player.

4. *He just traded Shaq a few years ago. *Buss did call Shaq a business decision, but the backlash was not unfelt.If he trades Kobe not only will the fans bring this up every day, but so will the Media. Buss will be looked at as the man that let two of the best players in this decade go. I'm sure Buss will not like another Media hit on the franchise.

With all this in effect, if Kobe went secretly (or Honorably) with his demand, all Buss would have done is just tried to assure Kobe that they're doing their best to make him happy and win championship. No 'Trading Kobe' thoughts would have ever came up in Buss's since the #1 goal of all is to keep Kobe here. 

Now, however, Kobe outburst may have dented a chance to get players to help him. Your argument fits here: Kobe going public does put presure on Buss to make a move on helping Bryant. That's when, as you said, teams can hold out and wait for a desprate team to break down and summit. If Kobe went secretly he would have _not been traded_ but the Lakers could of had a more reasonable nagotiating situation to get players to help Kobe. <- which makes me wonder if Kobe expected this(I doubt it though). But if so than that conforms Kobe's whole goal of going public was ONLY to get Buss to trade him. 

(IMO),Going public may have had Buss thinking a little bit about trade possiblities but the only way Buss *will* trade Kobe if Kobe is 

1. *Affecting the Lakers' income:* Kobe would have to sit out for the season for it to have impact. The damage to the Lakers will be unavoidable since(believe or not) most fans are on Kobe's side and will still be on his side during the hold out as far as Blaiming Buss for the whole situation. They will certainly boycott Bryantless games if it hurts Buss. Of course I don't believe for a second that Kobe will ever do this. 

2. *Affecting the Lakers image as a whole on a national level beyond-basketball:* At this point, Kobe will have to be charged AND convicted as either a Child Molestor or a Murderer...or maybe both.

Maybe Buss will do the unthinkable(.......trade kobe) this off-season and prove me wrong.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> Lebron is a freak of nature. Most High School kids don't come into the NBA like that. For two years, and the fact he Bynum plays center. He is doing fine. I expect improvements each year, and so far he has delivered.


:clap: Yep. Very succinctly put.


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