# OT: NBA All-Underachievers Team?



## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

If you were to name a player to each position on the "NBA All-Underachievers" Team, who would it be? Naturally, they would have to be relative to "expectations".

Here's my shot at it: (and, trust me, I'm no expert at this, so, please, be easy on me.  )

Center: Yao Ming

PF: Kwame Brown

SF: Darius Miles

SG: Jamal Crawford

PG: Steve Francis


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## Zybot (Jul 22, 2004)

*Re: OT: NBA All-Underachievers Team*

Well, here is my all time underachieving Blazer team

PG Erick Barkley

SG JR Rider

SF Qyntel Woods

PF Larue Martin

C Sam Bowie


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

ABM said:


> Center: Yao Ming


Ming averages 20 and 10 and is probably the 2nd best center in the league. I think expectations that he'd be better than that are unrealistic.


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## dwood615 (Jul 20, 2004)

Fork said:


> Ming averages 20 and 10 and is probably the 2nd best center in the league. I think expectations that he'd be better than that are unrealistic.



i agree


20 and 10 last time i checked is pretty damn good


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

dwood615 said:


> i agree
> 
> 
> 20 and 10 last time i checked is pretty damn good


I dont know if it's as impressive when you consider he's 7'5" and should be averaging more than 20-10.


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

Well most players over 7'3 havent been very good, so that must tell you that being that tall isnt that great. And Yao is the best of them.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Hap said:


> I dont know if it's as impressive when you consider he's 7'5" and should be averaging more than 20-10.


Should be averaging more? According to whom? 

You know how many other guys in the league average more than 20 and 10? Three: Kevin Garnett, Shawn Marion and Elton Brand. 

Tim Duncan doesn't get 20 and 10. Maybe HE'S the underachiever. 

nbadraft.net (not neccesarily the Mecca of scouting) said he was the next Rik Smits. He averaged 10 pts and 6 rebounds in the Olympics, so it's not as if he ever really tore up solid international competition. That's why, as I said, expecting more than 20 and 10 was unrealistic.


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## deanwoof (Mar 10, 2003)

C - Shawn Bradley (7'6" and couldn't do anything except block shots and get posterized)
PF - Shareef Abdur-Rahim (Playoff record)
SF - Keith Van Horn (Moved more than an abused child, overpaid, and had the "opportunity" of being drafted right after Duncan)
SG - Michael Dickerson (Great college career, pro career cut short by injuries and forced to retire early)
PG - Omar Cook


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Fork said:


> Should be averaging more? According to whom?
> 
> You know how many other guys in the league average more than 20 and 10? Three: Kevin Garnett, Shawn Marion and Elton Brand.
> 
> ...


I wasn't saying it as if thats MY opinion, but that to some being as tall as he is and almost passive on offense, it's a little unimpressive.

Marion and Brand are much more than just 20-10 guys tho (both average more blocks and more rebounds than Yao does). KG averages more rebounds and much more assists.

Yah's 20-10 is a lot like Zach's 20-10. It's not as impressive as the other players, because of the softness of this game. 

Does he belong on the "under-achiever" list? I doubt it, but i can see why people think he's "underachieving".


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

Hap said:


> Does he belong on the "under-achiever" list? I doubt it, but i can see why people think he's "underachieving".



I just remember all the hype when he was drafted. it was almost as if he was gonna be the 2nd coming of Wilt, Russell, Kareem, and Shaq....all rolled into one. :laugh:


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## soonerterp (Nov 13, 2005)

ABM said:


> PF: Kwame Brown


Understatement! Not just an underachiever, a flat out BUST.

Oh wow, "flat out bust" would be an oxymoron if it were about an entirely different subject.


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## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

ABM said:


> If you were to name a player to each position on the "NBA All-Underachievers" Team, who would it be? Naturally, they would have to be relative to "expectations".
> 
> Here's my shot at it: (and, trust me, I'm no expert at this, so, please, be easy on me.  )
> 
> ...


Miles? Is this what Nash fans feel like on this board? I know there is all kinds of hate for Miles on this board, but the All-Underachieving award. At 24 he is averaging 16 points and 5 rebounds a game (this season) and the all time underchieving SF? Wow!


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

Kiss_My_Darius said:


> Miles? Is this what Nash fans feel like on this board? I know there is all kinds of hate for Miles on this board, but the All-Underachieving award. At 24 he is averaging 16 points and 5 rebounds a game and the all time underchieving SF? Wow!


I threw a token Blazer in there just for some added _fluff_.


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## RedHot&Rolling (Jun 26, 2004)

Some of you didn't look deep enough. Some of the following make yours look like All-Stars!!

Center - LaRue Martin - with Olowokandi dis-honorable mention
PF - Pervis Ellison - with N Tskitishvili dis-honorable mention
SF - Tim Thomas
SG - Dennis Hopson - with Harold (baby jordan) Miner dis-honorable mention
PG - Shawn Respert

All these guys were highly touted out of college and didn't ever live up to expectations.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Hap said:


> I wasn't saying it as if thats MY opinion, but that to some being as tall as he is and almost passive on offense, it's a little unimpressive.


Being that size has never been advantage. It's not an optimal body size for basketball, as it leads to less coordination, more injuries and a higher center of gravity.

Shaq would not have been better if he had been 7'6'' instead of his 7'0''. Duncan and Garnett would be better if they were 7'6''. They'd be worse.

It's a disadvantage, so, if anything, Yao deserves bonus points, not demerits. The optimal size for a big man seems to be between 6'10'' and 7'0''. Absurd height isn't good.



> Marion and Brand are much more than just 20-10 guys tho (both average more blocks and more rebounds than Yao does). KG averages more rebounds and much more assists.


Yao is a tremendous defender. In fact, with Shaq now a 20-10 guy, essentially, I think Yao is the _best_ center in the game because of his defense. Shaq plays virtually no defense these days while Yao is a solid man defender and a very good team defender. They are equivalent scorers and rebounders.

(Obviously, then, I don't think Yao belongs anywhere near an "underachievers" list.)



> Yah's 20-10 is a lot like Zach's 20-10. It's not as impressive as the other players, because of the softness of this game.


Yao's 20-10 is much more valuable than Randolph's because he doesn't dominate the ball to get it. Yao is a good and willing passer, doesn't take a ton of shots and plays primarily in the post. Sure, he should probably take more shots, but due to his ridiculous efficiency, he gets his 20 PPG without being a black hole.


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

RedHot&Rolling said:


> Some of you didn't look deep enough. Some of the following make yours look like All-Stars!!
> 
> Center - LaRue Martin - with Olowokandi dis-honorable mention
> PF - Pervis Ellison - with N Tskitishvili dis-honorable mention
> ...


OK, I never did say All-_Time_


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

ABM said:


> Here's my shot at it: (and, trust me, I'm no expert at this, so, please, be easy on me.  )
> 
> Center: Yao Ming
> 
> ...


Mine would be:

*Center:* Michael Olowakandi

*Power Forward:* Kwame Brown

*Small Forward:* Keith Van Horn

*Shooting Guard:* Qyntel Woods

*Point Guard:* DeJuan Wagner

*Key Reserves:* Eddie Griffin, Stromile Swift, Nickoloz Tskitishvili, Ron Mercer, Marcus Fizer


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## deanwoof (Mar 10, 2003)

RedHot&Rolling said:


> Some of you didn't look deep enough. Some of the following make yours look like All-Stars!!
> 
> Center - LaRue Martin - with Olowokandi dis-honorable mention
> PF - Pervis Ellison - with N Tskitishvili dis-honorable mention
> ...


I wouldn't put Tim Thomas as an underachiever just yet. Sure he was overpaid, but that's because Milwaukie was desperate and he has shown through his whole career he's not a 1st option player. His best seasons were when he was 2nd or 3rd option. And just like now, he's going to kick *** in Phoenix since there's no pressure for him to be the leader. The skill is there. Like I've said for the past 4 years, Tim Thomas is Tmac but taller (skill-wise). 

And wow I forgot about Respert. Good one!


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

*Re: OT: NBA All-Underachievers Team*



Zybot said:


> Well, here is my all time underachieving Blazer team
> 
> PG Erick Barkley
> 
> ...




How in the hell does Sam Bowie make a lidt of underachievers. The guy busted his *** to play basketball, made the all-rookie team and plyed well when not injured. 

Guys like Yinke Dare, Qyntel Woods, Rasheed Wallace, Darius Miles, Michael Olawakandi, Derrick Coleman...These players could have ruled the basketball world if they had any heart or desire.


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## RedHot&Rolling (Jun 26, 2004)

ABM said:


> OK, I never did say All-_Time_


Sorry - didn't notice that you had all current players. I saw the title "NBA *ALL*-Underachievers" and ran with it.

If limited to today's NBA and current rosters; I'd go with:

Center - Michael Olowokandi
PF - Stomile Swift
SF - Mike Dunleavy Jr.
SG - Mike Miller
PG - Jamal Crawford


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## tradetheo (Feb 24, 2005)

LamarButler said:


> Well most players over 7'3 havent been very good, so that must tell you that being that tall isnt that great. And Yao is the best of them.


I think your age will make up for your post. allen iverson and richard jefferson on your team. do you even watch basketball?


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## Backboard Cam (Apr 29, 2003)

I agree with a lot of those, I'll try to not repeat with my list:

C: Bryant Reeves
PF: Keon Clark
SF: Austin Croshere
SG: Trajan Langdon 
PG: Jay Williams

Sorry Jay.


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## Tince (Jul 11, 2004)

Would anyone who put Yao on their list care to take him off after he dumped 30+/10+ on us tonight?


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## Backboard Cam (Apr 29, 2003)

A guy that tall should have had 40/20, right?


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## deanwoof (Mar 10, 2003)

I was thinking all day about this, and I'd have to take Shareef off my original list. And replace him with Derrick Coleman. Such a shame.


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## Zybot (Jul 22, 2004)

*Re: OT: NBA All-Underachievers Team*



mediocre man said:


> How in the hell does Sam Bowie make a lidt of underachievers. The guy busted his *** to play basketball, made the all-rookie team and plyed well when not injured.
> 
> Guys like Yinke Dare, Qyntel Woods, Rasheed Wallace, Darius Miles, Michael Olawakandi, Derrick Coleman...These players could have ruled the basketball world if they had any heart or desire.


Underachieving due to injury. For someone who was picked #2 in the draft between Olajuwon and Jordan, you would have expected more. If his body couldn't take it, he was underachieving. Enough said. Which Blazer Center should I have used instead?


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## Tince (Jul 11, 2004)

If we're counting players still in the league, that makes it difficult because the best examples are all out of the league now because they were so bad. I'll make two lists, one with recent busts and current players. 
Within Past Ten Years:
C Alek Radojevic (11th pick)
PF Robert Traylor (6th pick), Jerome Moiso (11th pick)
SF Jonathan Bender (5th pick), Marcus Haislip (13th pick)
SG Trajan Langdon (11th pick)
PG Mateen Cleaves (14th pick)

Current:
C Tony Battie (5th pick), Michael Olowokandi (1st pick), Rafael Araujo (8th pick)
PF Michael Doleac (11th pick), Marcus Fizer (4th pick), Nikoloz Tskitishvili (4th pick)
SF Bostjan Nachbar (15th pick)
SG DerMarr Johnson (6th pick)
PG Dajuan Wagner (6th pick)


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Tince said:


> Would anyone who put Yao on their list care to take him off after he dumped 30+/10+ on us tonight?


I've got him on my fantasy team, so maybe I follow him closer then some here. Since he's come back from his injury, he's been ripping it up on a regular basis. If he'd played this way all season, I doubt the Rockets would be looking in from the outside at the playoffs. I'm looking forward to them passing the Lakers in the coming weeks.

STOMP


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

Can I get a Chris Anstey?


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## Tince (Jul 11, 2004)

SheedSoNasty said:


> Can I get a Chris Anstey?


 Ooohh...that's a good one.


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## CrackerJack (Jul 2, 2005)

SheedSoNasty said:


> Can I get a Chris Anstey?


this guy didnt under-achieve he made the choice to go play elsewhere and hes been tearin it up in those leagues ever since, could easily be an NBA centre if he wanted to


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

Harold Miner...


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

Rasheed Wallace


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## SheedSoNasty (Dec 31, 2002)

CrackerJack said:


> this guy didnt under-achieve he made the choice to go play elsewhere and hes been tearin it up in those leagues ever since, could easily be an NBA centre if he wanted to


Any box scores we can look at?


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## Backboard Cam (Apr 29, 2003)

*Re: OT: NBA All-Underachievers Team*



Zybot said:


> Which Blazer Center should I have used instead?


Cato? Boumtje?


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## Krstic All-Star (Mar 9, 2005)

*Re: OT: NBA All-Underachievers Team*

Jerome James MUST be on the list.


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## Tince (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: OT: NBA All-Underachievers Team*



Krstic All Star said:


> Jerome James MUST be on the list.


 Was he supposed to be good?


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## alext42083 (Nov 7, 2003)

Players I'd add:

Darko Milicic - no explanation needed
Derek Anderson - The guy could've had a great career. Athletic, could drive, could shoot. I was excited when the Blazers got him, but was just too injury-prone and didn't live up to expectations.
Dajuan Wagner - scored 100 points in a HS game, then nothing in the NBA.
Eddy Curry - Still trying to justify that huge contract given by the worst GM in the world.
Antonio Daniels - Fourth pick in the '97 draft. Turned out to be just a good backup guard.
I'd also probably put Vince Carter on that list. The guy has all the talent in the world to be the best, but doesn't have that desire to be.

The list could probably go on and on... There are a lot of players today that are overhyped.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Billy Owens- I remember way back when he was the #1 overall pick in the draft and people were saying he could be like Magic in that he could play virtually every position...

Joe Smith- Another #1 overall pick who hasn't done much of anything in the NBA after being so dominate in college...

Mateen Cleaves- another guy I expected a lot more from out of college...He practically carried that Michigan St. team on his shoulders to the national championship...

Antonio Daniels- is another example of a guy who never lived up to his pick...He was the 4th player taken in the 97' draft...


I'm not sure how Francis could be an under achiever, he was on multiple All-Star teams on the west in years that they were loaded in talent at his position...he's had a couple of injuries that have lagged him lately but when healthy I still think he's a solid player...

Other under-achievers considering their contacts and what they had done in the past are Allan Houston, Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Shawn Kemp and Jim McIllvaine...


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## Tince (Jul 11, 2004)

What's an underachiever to you guys? 

Some appear to base it off of a player showing promise in his early years than fading away (ie: Derek Anderson)

Some seem to base it off contracts (ie: Tim Thomas)

Some (me) base it off draft slection (ie: Kandi-man)

What makes a player an underachiever to you?


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

Backboard Cam said:


> PG: Jay Williams


Along the same lines (pun not intended) but more so, how about Len Bias? He certainly didn't live up to expectations.

barfo


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## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

Good question, barfo. To me, an underachiever would be a player who had a good history (say, in a good college program), was drafted high and was expected to be an impact player in the NBA but who was barely a role player, if that. It would not include players who had career ending injuires (i.e. Grant Hill), nor would it include late or 2nd round picks; in those cases if you get anyone usable you're doing well. And I would not include a player in his first 1-3 years. Some guys (Steve Nash) take time to develop, and this is especially true of those coming right out of high school.
I also would not count a guy who was buried, like Darko Milicic; see if given pt he can be good. 
Another possible category would be a player who essentially threw away his talent, like Isaiah Rider or Shawn Kemp. Guys with the NBA skills to be great players, who did not have major injuries, but who just didn't seem to care enough to take care of themselves. Maybe Sprewell can fit in here as well. 
So, looking at the players listed, I'd agree with Kwame Brown, LaRue Martin and Shawn Bradley, for example, but disagree with Yao Ming and Rasheed Wallace. 
I'm surprised no one mentioned Christian Laettner, #3 pick, college player of the year, I think twice, member of the Dream Team, who has bounced around the league and has never been more than a decent role player. 
BTW, this makes me a bit uneasy with the idea of drafting JJ Redick; I don't know why, but it seems Duke players rarely live up to expectation in the NBA.


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## RedHot&Rolling (Jun 26, 2004)

zagsfan20 said:


> Billy Owens- I remember way back when he was the #1 overall pick in the draft and people were saying he could be like Magic in that he could play virtually every position..........


1991 Billy Owens Selected #3 Overall by Sacramento Kings.


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## deanwoof (Mar 10, 2003)

crandc said:


> BTW, this makes me a bit uneasy with the idea of drafting JJ Redick; I don't know why, but it seems Duke players rarely live up to expectation in the NBA.



Yup, Duke players don't pan out. Especially the ones that stay all four years, they all end up getting hurt or become crap (Ghill, Laettner, Ferry to name a few). Hell, I'd go and say ALL Duke players get hurt significantly - Maggette, Boozer, Brand. Something in that water or Coach K does worships the devil.


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

barfo said:


> Along the same lines (pun not intended) but more so, how about Len Bias? He certainly didn't live up to expectations.
> 
> barfo



He's tearing up the 6 foot under league, though.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

ABM said:


> He's tearing up the 6 foot under league, though.


He plays above the casket, and his rot selection is good, but he needs to better maintain his decomposure.

barfo


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

ABM said:


> He's tearing up the 6 foot under league, though.



wow....I can't believe you went there ABM


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

Hap said:


> wow....I can't believe you went there ABM


Yeah, ABM, that's really tacky... we rely on you to set a good example for people like barfo, and it seems like you only encouraged him. 

barfo


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

Hap said:


> wow....I can't believe you went there ABM


I haven't...........yet.


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

barfo said:


> Yeah, ABM, that's really tacky... we rely on you to set a good example for people like barfo, and it seems like you only encouraged him.
> 
> barfo


Actually, it was once said that I'm good for nothing...............and my mother (of all people) quickly retorted, "That's not true! He can _always_ be used as a bad example."

So there ya have it, folks.


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

Hap said:


> wow....I can't believe you went there ABM


Is "tackiness" relative? Hmmmm, perhaps not. But, I probably wouldn't have said what I said had he not died from cramming cocaine up his nose.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

ABM said:


> Is "tackiness" relative? Hmmmm, perhaps not. But, I probably wouldn't have said what I said had he not died from cramming cocaine up his nose.


oh no, I meant that you dare compared Len Bias to Telfair because Telfair is short.


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## Backboard Cam (Apr 29, 2003)

crandc said:


> I'm surprised no one mentioned Christian Laettner, #3 pick, college player of the year, I think twice, member of the Dream Team, who has bounced around the league and has never been more than a decent role player.
> BTW, this makes me a bit uneasy with the idea of drafting JJ Redick; I don't know why, but it seems Duke players rarely live up to expectation in the NBA.


As I was putting my list together, I thought about making it an all-Duke NBA Underachievers team. Laettner at Center, and add Grant Hill & William Avery to Langdon & JayWill. 

Duke sucks!


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

Hap said:


> oh no, I meant that you dare compared Len Bias to Telfair because Telfair is short.



:laugh: Now _what_ was it that Emily Litella always said?........


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

ABM said:


> :laugh: Now _what_ was it that Emily Litella always said?........


"Jane you ignorant slut"??

whats that have to do with Telfair and Len Bias?


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

Hap said:


> "Jane you ignorant slut"??
> 
> whats that have to do with Telfair and Len Bias?



Wrong.

In this case, she said, "Never mind.".....and sweetly smiled.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

ABM said:


> Wrong.
> 
> In this case, she said, "Never mind.".....and sweetly smiled.


yes, I know thats what she said. I was simply trying to make a funny.


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## ABM (Dec 30, 2002)

Hap said:


> yes, I know thats what she said. I was simply trying to make a funny.


Why do I feel so out of touch today?


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## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

Backboard Cam said:


> As I was putting my list together, I thought about making it an all-Duke NBA Underachievers team. Laettner at Center, and add Grant Hill & William Avery to Langdon & JayWill.
> 
> Duke sucks!


His last name escapes me, Bobby Someone, drafted by the Kings, crashed his car his rookie year and never played again. Sad, but that does not hide the fact that he most probably would never have become an NBA caliber point guard. Also add Dunleavy. Sorry, know he's a local. But he's been a very average player at Golden State, a streaky shooter with little to no defense. Someone who could maybe become a role player but really should not be a starter.
And of course, let us not forget Alaa Abdelnaby. Sure, he was a late pick. But he was given opportunites and did squat. Then when he was traded to the Celtics he complained that the Blazers held him back. That after he was reportedly ALWAYS the first one to leave practice.

BTW, for the record, no, I have no connection to North Carolina.


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## Zybot (Jul 22, 2004)

crandc said:


> His last name escapes me, Bobby Someone, drafted by the Kings, crashed his car his rookie year and never played again. Sad, but that does not hide the fact that he most probably would never have become an NBA caliber point guard. Also add Dunleavy. Sorry, know he's a local. But he's been a very average player at Golden State, a streaky shooter with little to no defense. Someone who could maybe become a role player but really should not be a starter.
> And of course, let us not forget Alaa Abdelnaby. Sure, he was a late pick. But he was given opportunites and did squat. Then when he was traded to the Celtics he complained that the Blazers held him back. That after he was reportedly ALWAYS the first one to leave practice.
> 
> BTW, for the record, no, I have no connection to North Carolina.


Hurley


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

RedHot&Rolling said:


> 1991 Billy Owens Selected #3 Overall by Sacramento Kings.


My bad, I could of sworn he was the 1st pick, I guess I'm remembering wrong..


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

Backboard Cam said:


> As I was putting my list together, I thought about making it an all-Duke NBA Underachievers team. Laettner at Center, and add Grant Hill & William Avery to Langdon & JayWill.
> 
> Duke sucks!


Grant Hill...damn good player when he is healthy so I don't think you can say he "underachieved."

JayWill...Messed himself up in a motorcycle accident thus never getting a chance to prove anything. How can you underachive if you never play? 

Will Avery: Never knew anyone expected much out of him in the NBA.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Will Avery was picked in the middle of the first round, I'd think he was expected to last more than 3 years in the league...


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## Backboard Cam (Apr 29, 2003)

sa1177 said:


> Grant Hill...damn good player when he is healthy so I don't think you can say he "underachieved."
> 
> JayWill...Messed himself up in a motorcycle accident thus never getting a chance to prove anything. How can you underachive if you never play?


Yeah, the injury argument has been made in this thread already. In JayWill's case, it's hard to not blame him for his injury.

Grant Hill, I was grasping at straws just to fill out an all-Duke team. Hill & Christian arguably peaked in the final seconds of that game against Kentucky. Still, Grant was great in Detroit, and even his Orlando stats are really pretty good. 



> Will Avery: Never knew anyone expected much out of him in the NBA.


Some people did.


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## sa1177 (Feb 18, 2005)

Backboard Cam said:


> Yeah, the injury argument has been made in this thread already. In JayWill's case, it's hard to not blame him for his injury.
> 
> Grant Hill, I was grasping at straws just to fill out an all-Duke team. Hill & Christian arguably peaked in the final seconds of that game against Kentucky. Still, Grant was great in Detroit, and even his Orlando stats are really pretty good.
> 
> ...


Yikes..those folks are just silly...!


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## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

Ed O'Bannon. High pick, tournament MVP, won a national championship, NBA bust. I was glad since I don't like the guy.


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## freeblzrtix (Mar 7, 2006)

Hey stat geeks, Yao is WAY over-rated. The numbers that count for a franchise player are Wins and Losses, not points and rebounds.


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