# How Michael Jordan Got So Good At Basketball?



## Air Fly

There is little argument that Michael Jordan is the best basketball player of his era, if not of all time. With Six Championship Rings, Five MVP Awards, and countless other awards, he is perhaps the most dominating player ever. But, what makes him so good? And how on earth did he get so good? and do you miss him? 

Yep I miss the God of basketball, and all of those high flying moves, reverse lay-ups, and gravity defying shots he was able to do.


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## JT

if you read michael jordan's book, titled "for the love of the game", he explicitly says that north carolina coach dean smith taught him how to function at that high level, and he just propelled himself from there. 

a shorter answer to the question would be; "hard work and good luck". hard work for all the skills he picked up to enhance his game, and damned good luck for the innate raw physical talent he had (excellent quickness, low center of gravity, giant hands, leaping ability).


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## ralaw

sherako said:


> a shorter answer to the question would be; "hard work and good luck". hard work for all the skills he picked up to enhance his game, and damned good luck for the innate raw physical talent he had (excellent quickness, low center of gravity, giant hands, leaping ability).


I'd add the confidence to believe he was the best on the court at all times. I understand most players have this same confidence, but to have this confidence with the ability to do what ever you want goes a long way.


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## Air Fly

I must also add this...

The first thing Michael Jordan has that makes him so good is sound basketball fundamentals! He is better at the most basic basketball skills than almost anyone else. Be being so good at the games simplest skills, enables him to make the more difficult moves easier. All those high flying moves, reverse lay-ups, and gravity defying shots he is able to, is because he already has mastered the simplest moves that get him to that point. Without those simple skills he would never be able to get to that point to enable him to make those spectacular moves

Michael Jordan also posses the most desired trait of all. Speed! I’m not just talking the type of speed that helps you run fast. I’m talking about playing speed! The speed that enables you to jump faster, make a move faster, and react faster than the next person. Some of this speed can be learned. Like the ability to make a move fast. By practicing the move and having good basketball fundaments you can increase your conditioning and God given talent. This speed enables him to out perform other players, that don’t posses this speed. To find out how you can develop better speed and an explosive jumping ability, click here!

Great physical conditioning, is another trait that makes Michael Jordan so good. Michael Jordan’s legs, lungs, and upper body are in tremendous physical condition. He can play basketball for long periods of time without needing to rest, because of this. Be being is such great condition cuts down on errors that happen when a player is tired. It also enables him to perform moves that would be impossible, if he weren’t in such great condition.

Practice habits. Michael Jordan has been called the best practice player ever, by many of his coaches. This doesn’t mean only the amount of time he spends practicing. This means that he practices harder than anyone else during practice. He performs each drill as if he was really in a game. By practicing this way he prepares himself on to react at game speed every time. That way when he encounters that situation in a game, he already knows how to react to it. He knows exactly what to do and is able to do it at top speed. By practicing hard and at game speed all the time he teaches himself only to play at that speed and enables him to be prepared to make the great play.

Michael Jordan also posses one more highly publicized trait that makes him the great player that he is. The burning desire to win and improve. Michael Jordan is famous for being extremely competitive. This desire to win and be the best, helps motivate him to out do every one else. By begin competitive not only against competition, but against himself he makes himself a better player.


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## djtoneblaze

You would think that there would be another player just as physically gifted as Michael (and there are PLENTY out there, actually) that would work just as hard fundamentally and would reach his level... obviously not, though.


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## CrossOver

Air Fly said:


> Practice habits. Michael Jordan has been called the best practice player ever, by many of his coaches. This doesn’t mean only the amount of time he spends practicing. This means that he practices harder than anyone else during practice. He performs each drill as if he was really in a game. By practicing this way he prepares himself on to react at game speed every time. That way when he encounters that situation in a game, he already knows how to react to it. He knows exactly what to do and is able to do it at top speed. By practicing hard and at game speed all the time he teaches himself only to play at that speed and enables him to be prepared to make the great play.


This is one thing that I want to expand on. A friend of mine was trying out for San Fran a few years back, and one thing he said about Jerry Rice really struck home. He basically said that during practice every time, and he meant EVERY time Rice caught a ball he would run full speed to the endzone. Regardless of the throwing drill, simple outs, skinny posts whatever, he would run full speed to the endzone for the whole practice. If that doesnt tell you the desire that guys like Jordan and Rice who were arguably the best at what they did ever, I don't know what will.


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## Geaux Tigers

djtoneblaze said:


> You would think that there would be another player just as physically gifted as Michael (and there are PLENTY out there, actually) that would work just as hard fundamentally and would reach his level... obviously not, though.


That shows you how mental the game is. You can have all the physical talent in the world but its 90% focus and confidence. Read _Sacred Hoops_ by Phil Jackson to get a better understanding.


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## tone wone

correct me if im wrong...

but in the 80s...what stood out about jordan was that he was just as skilled as Magic or Bird....but he was faaaar more athletic than those guys...and that was what separated him back then...

if you look at the league now....you guys like Tmac and Lebron who are bigger than jordan and are just as athletic....

i know this is against everyones religon to ask(even mine)...but do you think Jordan would've stood out as much if he was drafted 10-12 yrs later???


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## Drewbs

tone wone said:


> correct me if im wrong...
> 
> but in the 80s...what stood out about jordan was that he was just as skilled as Magic or Bird....but he was faaaar more athletic than those guys...and that was what separated him back then...
> 
> if you look at the league now....you guys like Tmac and Lebron who are bigger than jordan and are just as athletic....
> 
> i know this is against everyones religon to ask(even mine)...but do you think Jordan would've stood out as much if he was drafted 10-12 yrs later???


He would probably still be considered pretty much the unanimous best player in the league if he was playing today in his prime.

and alot of guys today might be atheletic, but they don't have skills comparable to Magic or Bird. (I'm not saying that they aren't skilled though), and I never felt Tmac or Lebron are just as athletic as Jordan.


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## tone wone

Drewbs said:


> He would probably still be considered pretty much the unanimous best player in the league if he was playing today in his prime.
> 
> and alot of guys today might be atheletic, but they don't have skills comparable to Magic or Bird. (I'm not saying that they aren't skilled though), and I never felt Tmac or Lebron are just as athletic as Jordan.


 maybe so...

but asking if he came into the league at the same time Kobe and McGrady were stepping out....and Iverson and Pierce and Vince and Ray Allen were dunking on sportscenter....would he stand out above those guys...the same way he did in the 80s before he won anything...


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## Timmons

tone wone said:


> i know this is against everyones religon to ask(even mine)...but do you think Jordan would've stood out as much if he was drafted 10-12 yrs later???


Well, the old Jordan who played for the Wizards could still dominate certain plays and minutes. I think if you put him into the game today he would still stand out. As an old man he still was better than most of his competition, he just didn't have the physical stamina that he used to. 
But a Jordan in his prime would dominate.

My favoirte Jordan moment was in the Finals against Portland where Jordan buried 6 three pointers in a row, then shrugged to the commentators. That hoop must have looked as big as a swimming pool that night.

Again I feel sorry for all the younger fans who never got to see Jordan live! :nah:


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## The Mad Viking

> That shows you how mental the game is. You can have all the physical talent in the world but its 90% focus and confidence.


I was waiting for this.

Add intelligence to the mix. Jordan is very smart, especially on a tactical level. So he didn't just try to beat you on hops, or quickness, or whatever. Very analytical.

So many multi-talented athletes who can do ANYTHING never really learn WHAT is the BEST thing to do, for any given situation.

Jordan made no excuses. He willingly accepted responsibility for everything he had control over, plus about 25% more.

He accepted no excuses. So everyone became accountable. Nothing was left to chance, or fell through the gaps.


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## Timmons

tone wone said:


> maybe so...
> 
> but asking if he came into the league at the same time Kobe and McGrady were stepping out....and Iverson and Pierce and Vince and Ray Allen were dunking on sportscenter....would he stand out above those guys...the same way he did in the 80s before he won anything...


Well as far as Top 10 on ESPN...no. There was Jordan and Dominique Wilkins doing all the high flying back then. Now everybody gets a chance to showoff during games.


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## CAnthony15

I always thought that an advantage that Jordan has over other players who had smiliar athletic abilities (Dominque, T-Mac, etc.) is that Jordan was so mentally tough. He never feared taking the last shot, and he always knew that he was better than everyone else.


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## DWadeistheTruth

tone wone said:


> correct me if im wrong...
> 
> but in the 80s...what stood out about jordan was that he was just as skilled as Magic or Bird....but he was faaaar more athletic than those guys...and that was what separated him back then...
> 
> if you look at the league now....you guys like Tmac and Lebron who are bigger than jordan and are just as athletic....
> 
> i know this is against everyones religon to ask(even mine)...but do you think Jordan would've stood out as much if he was drafted 10-12 yrs later???


You crazy even making such a comment.


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## PauloCatarino

Air Fly said:


> There is little argument that Michael Jordan is the best basketball player of his era, if not of all time. With Six Championship Rings, Five MVP Awards, and countless other awards, he is perhaps the most dominating player ever. But, what makes him so good? And how on earth did he get so good?


The refs! :angel:


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## Pinball

Air Fly said:


> I must also add this...
> 
> The first thing Michael Jordan has that makes him so good is sound basketball fundamentals! He is better at the most basic basketball skills than almost anyone else. Be being so good at the games simplest skills, enables him to make the more difficult moves easier. All those high flying moves, reverse lay-ups, and gravity defying shots he is able to, is because he already has mastered the simplest moves that get him to that point. Without those simple skills he would never be able to get to that point to enable him to make those spectacular moves
> 
> Michael Jordan also posses the most desired trait of all. Speed! I’m not just talking the type of speed that helps you run fast. I’m talking about playing speed! The speed that enables you to jump faster, make a move faster, and react faster than the next person. Some of this speed can be learned. Like the ability to make a move fast. By practicing the move and having good basketball fundaments you can increase your conditioning and God given talent. This speed enables him to out perform other players, that don’t posses this speed. To find out how you can develop better speed and an explosive jumping ability, click here!
> 
> Great physical conditioning, is another trait that makes Michael Jordan so good. Michael Jordan’s legs, lungs, and upper body are in tremendous physical condition. He can play basketball for long periods of time without needing to rest, because of this. Be being is such great condition cuts down on errors that happen when a player is tired. It also enables him to perform moves that would be impossible, if he weren’t in such great condition.
> 
> Practice habits. Michael Jordan has been called the best practice player ever, by many of his coaches. This doesn’t mean only the amount of time he spends practicing. This means that he practices harder than anyone else during practice. He performs each drill as if he was really in a game. By practicing this way he prepares himself on to react at game speed every time. That way when he encounters that situation in a game, he already knows how to react to it. He knows exactly what to do and is able to do it at top speed. By practicing hard and at game speed all the time he teaches himself only to play at that speed and enables him to be prepared to make the great play.
> 
> Michael Jordan also posses one more highly publicized trait that makes him the great player that he is. The burning desire to win and improve. Michael Jordan is famous for being extremely competitive. This desire to win and be the best, helps motivate him to out do every one else. By begin competitive not only against competition, but against himself he makes himself a better player.


You basically nailed it. He had the best combination of everything. Some guys are great athletes but they have a ****ty work ethic. Some guys have great work ethics but they lack some physical traits. Some guys have great skills but don't have the confidence to display them. Some guys are great for 3 quarters but would rather pass off a shot and a chance at glory in crunch time than be blamed for a loss by missing a shot. Jordan had no real weaknesses in his game. He was as complete as a 6-6 player can be.


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## tone wone

DWadeistheTruth said:


> You crazy even making such a comment.


 explain how im crazy for asking this question


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## EGarrett

The Mad Viking said:


> So many multi-talented athletes who can do ANYTHING never really learn WHAT is the BEST thing to do, for any given situation.


That is a GREAT comment. Everyone should re-read that. I tried to rep you for it, don't know if I did it right.

Plus, a lot of people forget that Jordan is and was borderline mentally ill. Anyone who gets up and devotes that much of their time and effort to anything is an obsessive-compulsive. Bobby Fischer had the same obsession with chess (in addition to being a bonafide genius).

Normal people have a number of interests. But the very best people in anything usually have that one thing as their main interest. It takes obsession to reach that level. Dennis Rodman said that Michael Jordan was the ONLY person he ever played with who practiced every day.

Normal people don't do that. I mean, would you REALLY want to spend 7 hours a day, EVERY day dribbling and shooting a basketball? If you had a friend who never wanted to hang out with you because he spent all his time alone in the gym, you would think there was something wrong with him. You'd probably be right, too.

But that's obsession, and that's what it takes.


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## BBALLSCIENCES

EGarrett said:


> Plus, a lot of people forget that Jordan is and was borderline mentally ill.


You're mentally ill with this comment.


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## DuMa

his competitive nature is beyond anyone elses.


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## Air Fly

PauloCatarino said:


> The refs! :angel:


The refs? you are being sarcastic right?

I believe that he would be extra unstoppable playing under today's refs, cuz they dont allow tough defense like they used to back then in Jordan era know what i mean? If Kobe can get to the FT line 11 times a game, imagin what jordan would do!!!..He would definantly be much more dominant in today's game!


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## hirschmanz

Air Fly said:


> The refs? you are being sarcastic right?
> 
> I believe that he would be extra unstoppable playing under today's refs, cuz they dont allow tough defense like they used to back then in Jordan era know what i mean? If Kobe can get to the FT line 11 times a game, imagin what jordan would do!!!..He would definantly be much more dominant in today's game!


relax, paulo's not so hot on jordan. We're all entitled to our opinions, but I think this is a good thread for paulo to share his beef with jordan....
Thats right! I'm calling YOU out. :nah:


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## mysterio

BBALLSCIENCES said:


> You're mentally ill with this comment.


I don't know... Myabe he had an obsessive compulsive disorder. He just has to win at everything, not just basketball. He's had big problems with compulsive gambling. 

Remember Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf? He didn't get that sweet stroke and free throw accuracy and ball handling mastery for being mentally stable.


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## remy23

I agree that individuals who push themselves to their absolute limits and then seek to push themselves even further ultimately wind up changing themselves. Your game, your skills and your talents improve but at what cost? It's all speculation unless you know a person intimately but I've seen people lose themselves in pursuit of goals.


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## futuristxen

EGarrett said:


> That is a GREAT comment. Everyone should re-read that. I tried to rep you for it, don't know if I did it right.
> 
> Plus, a lot of people forget that Jordan is and was borderline mentally ill. Anyone who gets up and devotes that much of their time and effort to anything is an obsessive-compulsive. Bobby Fischer had the same obsession with chess (in addition to being a bonafide genius).
> 
> Normal people have a number of interests. But the very best people in anything usually have that one thing as their main interest. It takes obsession to reach that level. Dennis Rodman said that Michael Jordan was the ONLY person he ever played with who practiced every day.
> 
> Normal people don't do that. I mean, would you REALLY want to spend 7 hours a day, EVERY day dribbling and shooting a basketball? If you had a friend who never wanted to hang out with you because he spent all his time alone in the gym, you would think there was something wrong with him. You'd probably be right, too.
> 
> But that's obsession, and that's what it takes.



Excellent point.


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## PauloCatarino

hirschmanz said:


> relax, paulo's not so hot on jordan. We're all entitled to our opinions, but I think this is a good thread for paulo to share his beef with jordan....
> Thats right! I'm calling YOU out. :nah:


Hey!! I have no beef with His Hairless himself (the player). I think he was a great, great player. In fact, i rank him #3 All-time!

My beef is about people's *perceptions* of Jordan. Ol' Baldy is (easily) the most overhyped, overrated professional basketball player (and even LeBron comes very distant...).

I was watching today on TV a show about the Beckham couple, and i laughed very hard when i watched people (mainly in Asia) almost worshiping Becks as a God (i'm serious! Altars and everything!). Then a marketing expert said something that caught my attention: "David Beckham is 10 times what Michael Jordan was, marketing-wise"...

Jordan was (till Becks arrived) the most marketed sports figure ever. That made people believe he was BETTER than he really was (and again, he was a great, great player).

Most people don't realize that:
- Jordan only started winning when Bird, Magic, and even Zeke and the Pistons were through;
- Till then, he was viewed as an astounding player, but as somewhat of a "stat-padder";
- The following victories were in an era where the overall talent was diluted, and there were no great franchises for the Bulls to compete with;
- The Bulls only lost 2 more games the season after Jordan's first retirement (and that was with Pete Myers starting at SG);
- In the second three-peat, Jordan had the luxury of playing with 2 of the greatest defenders in the history of the NBA who SIMULTANEOUSLY were 2 great offensive players (Check out Rodman's offensive rebounds, if you need to);
- He rode Nike's wagon, which enhanced greatly his feats;
- He had preferential treatment from both the League (marketing-wise) and the refs (was there ever a call made on Jordan's palming?);
- etc., etc., etc..

Hater? Perhaps (although i admit i am a KG and Lebron hater). But are the points ive written so off base? I don't think so... And i could go on, and on, and on... 

:nah:


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## Hakeem

tone wone said:


> correct me if im wrong...
> 
> but in the 80s...what stood out about jordan was that he was just as skilled as Magic or Bird....but he was faaaar more athletic than those guys...and that was what separated him back then...
> 
> if you look at the league now....you guys like Tmac and Lebron who are bigger than jordan and are just as athletic....
> 
> i know this is against everyones religon to ask(even mine)...but do you think Jordan would've stood out as much if he was drafted 10-12 yrs later???


Good point. I don't think Jordan would have stood out as much. He would still be regarded as easily the best player in the league, and arguably the best ever, but he'd be viewed as more human. In the 80's there were very few players who possessed Jordan's level of athleticism, so someone who could jump out of the gym AND score 35 ppg and play great defense was considered godly. But these days, 40" verticals aren't so rare, and hence you see a lot of superstars who are also very athletic.


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## KokoTheMonkey

One day I heard a knock on the door. I opened it up, and there was some fellow named Michael that was asking for me. He said "I heard you can ball", so I responded with "What's it to you?". He answered back "I want to learn the game from you. I have been sent here because I heard you have converted scrubs to basketball gods. So, are you going to help me or not?" Since I liked this kid, I responded back "I guess. Get your jock 'Air' Jordan, you're going to need one." 


And that's the tale of how Michael Jordan got so good at basketball. I let him beat me a few times, but that's because I spotted him 5 in a game to 10. Oh yeah, you know that move in his first NBA Finals against the Lakers where he brings the ball up on one side then brings it down and finishes with the left? All Koko, except I use to throw it between my legs a couple of times.


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## EGarrett

PauloCatarino said:


> Hey!! I have no beef with His Hairless himself (the player)...
> 
> Most people don't realize that:
> - Jordan only started winning when Bird, Magic, and even Zeke and the Pistons were through;
> 
> - Till then, he was viewed as an astounding player, but as somewhat of a "stat-padder";


Not really. He was viewed as "God disguised as Michael Jordan," (Larry Bird), the man who "snatched the baton away" as the best basketball player on the planet (Magic), and who was "almost impossible to beat," after he learned to pass (Joe Dumars.)

That's pretty high praise coming from those guys you mention.



> - The following victories were in an era where the overall talent was diluted, and there were no great franchises for the Bulls to compete with;


Hakeem wasn't great? Barkley wasn't great? The Bad Boy Pistons weren't great? (he dominated them after 1990) Karl Malone and John Stockton weren't great?

You're just saying that because Jordan's teams won so often, it took the spotlight away from everyone else.



> - The Bulls only lost 2 more games the season after Jordan's first retirement (and that was with Pete Myers starting at SG);


Fair enough, but they didn't win a championship. And they set the All-time single-season wins record shortly after his return.



> - In the second three-peat, Jordan had the luxury of playing with 2 of the greatest defenders in the history of the NBA who SIMULTANEOUSLY were 2 great offensive players (Check out Rodman's offensive rebounds, if you need to);


By that logic, Ben Wallace is a great offensive player. And so was Jayson Williams of the New Jersey Nets. In other words, that logic doesn't work.



> - He rode Nike's wagon, which enhanced greatly his feats;


I don't recall Nike representatives standing on the court helping him score. The shoe company you're with doesn't make much difference in the actual game.



> - He had preferential treatment from both the League (marketing-wise) and the refs (was there ever a call made on Jordan's palming?);


Every superstar gets treated that way. And Jordan was so unstoppable on his drives that yes, he was fouled most of the time.



> Hater? Perhaps (although i admit i am a KG and Lebron hater). But are the points ive written so off base? I don't think so... And i could go on, and on, and on...


I don't have any problem with you, we'll all entitled to our opinions. But I do think your points are slightly off.



Hakeem said:


> In the 80's there were very few players who possessed Jordan's level of athleticism, so someone who could jump out of the gym AND score 35 ppg and play great defense was considered godly. But these days, 40" verticals aren't so rare, and hence you see a lot of superstars who are also very athletic.


Clyde Drexler, Julius Erving, David Thompson, Dominique Wilkins, Larry Nance, Terrence Stansbury, Kenny Walker...


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## tone wone

KokoTheMonkey said:


> One day I heard a knock on the door. I opened it up, and there was some fellow named Michael that was asking for me. He said "I heard you can ball", so I responded with "What's it to you?". He answered back "I want to learn the game from you. I have been sent here because I heard you have converted scrubs to basketball gods. So, are you going to help me or not?" Since I liked this kid, I responded back "I guess. Get your jock 'Air' Jordan, you're going to need one."
> 
> 
> And that's the tale of how Michael Jordan got so good at basketball. I let him beat me a few times, but that's because I spotted him 5 in a game to 10. Oh yeah, you know that move in his first NBA Finals against the Lakers where he brings the ball up on one side then brings it down and finishes with the left? All Koko, except I use to throw it between my legs a couple of times.


 and then you woke up....wipped the drool from your mouth..and got yourself a glass of milk


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## kflo

jordan DID have the most raw basketball athleticism. he had an incredible work ethic along with that talent. i wouldn't say he had the greatest mind, or the greatest feel for the game, although he was above average on both counts. but he had an incredible combination of quickness, strength, height and leaping ability. the hard work brought the shooting and ballhandling. i think people overrate his feel for the game, particularly if we're comparing it to guys like bird and magic. but he had the raw ability and the work ethic, and the capacity to learn. never forget the level of talent he brought to the table. that, and his work ethic and desire is ultimately the differentiator, imo. 

oh, yeah, and those hands.

lebron's intriguing because he has some natural gifts that exceed jordan. he's got the body, and he's got the feel (awareness). he doesn't have the quickness. but he's got some things that at least make you hold out some notion that he could do things beyond what jordan could.


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## Hakeem

EGarrett said:


> Not really. He was viewed as "God disguised as Michael Jordan," (Larry Bird), the man who "snatched the baton away" as the best basketball player on the planet (Magic), and who was "almost impossible to beat," after he learned to pass (Joe Dumars.)
> 
> That's pretty high praise coming from those guys you mention.


But the media and the general population of basketball fans viewed him as somewhat of a stats-padder. Sort of like T-Mac -- a great player, but not a winner. Basketballers always make a few exaggerated comments, especially when they win and are feeling happy. Remember, Larry Bird said that "God" line after his team beat the Bulls. 



> Hakeem wasn't great? Barkley wasn't great? The Bad Boy Pistons weren't great? (he dominated them after 1990) Karl Malone and John Stockton weren't great?
> You're just saying that because Jordan's teams won so often, it took the spotlight away from everyone else.


Most people will agree that teams in the 80's were stacked. There were some great players in the 90's, but their teams didn't have a whole lot else.



> I don't recall Nike representatives standing on the court helping him score. The shoe company you're with doesn't make much difference in the actual game.


You know very well that his point was that Nike's marketing made him out to be some kind of superhero. There were poor kids in third world countries who'd never seen a full NBA game in their lives, yet adored Michael Jordan.



> Every superstar gets treated that way. And Jordan was so unstoppable on his drives that yes, he was fouled most of the time.


Jordan got more superstar calls than the average superstar. Like Shaq once said, when Michael's shot gets blocked and he says "Agg-hhh!", the entire league goes "What's the matter, Mike?"



> Clyde Drexler, Julius Erving, David Thompson, Dominique Wilkins, Larry Nance, Terrence Stansbury, Kenny Walker...


Jordan was as athletic or more athletic than every one of those guys, and was also a better player. No one was as good as Jordan while also having that level of athleticism. Drexler came close, and maybe that's why for a while some people thought he was better than MJ. But the point is that those sorts of players were much rarer back then. Now you have Kobe, T-Mac, LeBron, Vince -- all these guys who have the athleticism AND the game.


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## jalen5

Jordan simply had the best COMBINATION of everything. He was not only good at things, he was GREAT. And not only was he GREAT at a couple things, he was GREAT at EVERYTHING. Skills and talent, raw athleticism (speed, jumping ability, quickness, acceleration, body control-- the whole package), confidence, desire to win and be the best, intelligence (he was really a student of the game), mental toughness, guts (he ALWAYS wanted the ball in his hands to win the game), refusal to lose, etc... Jordan was at the top of it all. He just simply had EVERYTHING. Alot of players have some of them, but not all of them. Athleticism seems to be the most common one in players today but those players wont ever reach Jordan status without the other stuff as well.


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## 23

The Mad Viking said:


> I was waiting for this.
> 
> *Add intelligence to the mix. Jordan is very smart, especially on a tactical level. So he didn't just try to beat you on hops, or quickness, or whatever. Very analytical.*
> 
> So many multi-talented athletes who can do ANYTHING never really learn WHAT is the BEST thing to do, for any given situation.
> 
> Jordan made no excuses. He willingly accepted responsibility for everything he had control over, plus about 25% more.
> 
> He accepted no excuses. So everyone became accountable. Nothing was left to chance, or fell through the gaps.


MJ is an ISTP braintype... the cream of the crop of athletes. Add in coaching, hard work, the right pieces, and its all over

ISTP's are Introverted, Sensing, Thinking (tacticians) Percieving (striking at sergical moments)

They seem to lie dormant at times and strike at the right moment. Fundamental performers.. thinkers that outsmart you.. fine motor skills that seem to allow them to do whatever they want on the court

some most notable ISTP players

Shaq These territorial considerations are usually critical in relationships with ISTPs; communication also tends to be a key issue, since they generally express themselves non-verbally. When they do actually verbalize, *ISTPs are masters of the one-liner, often showing flashes of humor in the most tense situations; this can result in their being seen as thick-skinned or tasteless. *

ask any laker fan nowadays about that.

Tracy mcgrady 

Like their fellow SPs, ISTPs are fundamentally Performers (note the capital 'P' ), but as Ts their areas of interest tend to be mechanical rather than artistic like those of ISFPs, and unlike most ESPs they do not present an impression of constant activity. *On the contrary, they lie dormant, saving their energy until a project or an adventure worthy of their time comes along--and then they launch themselves at it.* The apparently frenzied state that inevitably ensues is actually much more controlled than it appears--ISTPs always seem to know what they're doing when it comes to physical or mechanical obstacles--*but the whole chain of events presents a confusing and paradoxical picture to an outsider.*

people said he looks bored, not interested, too laidback looks that way to an outsider..

An ISTP who is over-stressed may exhibit rash emotional outbursts of anger, or on the other extreme may be overwhelmed by emotions and feelings which they feel compelled to share with people (often inappropriately)

Shaq and Tmac last year, even MJ with the Wiz

*ISTPs are excellent in a crisis situations. They're usually good athletes, and have very good hand-eye coordination.* They are good at following through with a project, and tying up loose ends. They usually don't have much trouble with school, because they are introverts who can think logically. They are usually patient individuals, although they may be prone to occasional emotional outbursts due to their inattention to their own feelings.

*ISTPs have a lot of natural ability which makes them good at many different kinds of things.* (tmac MJ AI.. all played more than one sport and was good at them) However, they are happiest when they are centered in action-oriented tasks which require detailed logical analysis and technical skill. They take pride in their ability to take the next correct step. 

other ones are j. Kidd, AI, and a few others, and they all stand out in some way more than anyone else.

MJ was the one who achieved the height of his physical and mental abilities and was thus unstoppable.


----------



## DuMa

Well MJ did have one flaw in his game. that he was too good. He allowed himself to be burnt out by the long and tumultuous of NBA basketball regular season including the full 15+ playoff games. If he didnt retire in 93-94 season due to him being burnt out, he probably would have made his basketball skills even higher. Maybe resulting in 8 straight titles instead of repeat 3 peats.


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## Sith

there are 3 main reasons why jordan was so good in basketball:

1)The Bulls were winning big. when your team win, and you lead the league in scoring, you are going to be considered as the best player especially they did it years after years. I totally believe that kobe would be capable of putting up Jordan's stats if he was put on Jordan's shoes during the bulls run.


2)leadership ability, people often overlook this, but often this is what seperates a goat from the other greats, when you demand the ultimate respects on and off the court, your team tends to follow your lead and approach the games more professionally, this is how you make everyone around you better. sometimes coaches are brought in for that reason, but a MJ was the best leader during his time. there was zero dispute that who the other bulls players would listen to.


3)incredible tough mentally. Jordan was the ultimate competitor, there was nothing that could deflate his supreme confidence. Duncan is anothe example of that, always believe in yourself, just play your game.



notice I didn't mention jordan's great skillsets and raw athlesim, it's because i relaly do think jordan wasn't that much better than kobe/t-mac likes in terms of pure basketball talents. all those 3 guys could put up stats with explosive scorings, good court vision, good defender, size, and obvisouly supreme athlesim. it is the mental aspect and the team success that really serepates jordan and other great SG's of today apart. do you really think without the great bulls defense, scottie, rodman, kukoc, and all the bulls talents, Jordan would be considered as the goat, and an all-time best? you would be kidding yourself if u thought that, he would just be remembered as another 'kobe' and one of the biggest ballhog ever.


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## PauloCatarino

EGarrett said:


> Not really. He was viewed as "God disguised as Michael Jordan," (Larry Bird), the man who "snatched the baton away" as the best basketball player on the planet (Magic), and who was "almost impossible to beat," after he learned to pass (Joe Dumars.)
> 
> That's pretty high praise coming from those guys you mention.


People tend to take that one-liner from Bird way out of context. He said that after the Celtics beat the Bulls in the playoffs, and after a game where Jordan went crazy and scored 60+pts. If i remember correctly, the Celtics swept the Bulls. Everyone who knows Bird story knows who was the player he most admired...

"After he learned to pass"? (Dumars) Wasn't that years after he put up that 30-8-8 season? I'd say Micahel becama a problem to opposite teams after he learned do *defer*. 



> Hakeem wasn't great? Barkley wasn't great? The Bad Boy Pistons weren't great? (he dominated them after 1990) Karl Malone and John Stockton weren't great?


Great players don't necessarily make great teams. What were the *consistently * great teams of the 90's? And how do they fare against the 80's Lakers, Celtics, Sixers, Pistons and Blazers?



> You're just saying that because Jordan's teams won so often, it took the spotlight away from everyone else.


The spotlight was allways on Jordan, not the bulls. Sadly, it still is... the League still revolves about Jordan way too much.



> Fair enough, but they didn't win a championship. And they set the All-time single-season wins record shortly after his return.





> By that logic, Ben Wallace is a great offensive player. And so was Jayson Williams of the New Jersey Nets. In other words, that logic doesn't work.


Offensive rebounds, and the second-chance points they provide, are great offensive assets...



> I don't recall Nike representatives standing on the court helping him score. The shoe company you're with doesn't make much difference in the actual game.


No, but they help shape the perceptions people have about a player. Do you think that Jordan would have such recognition if it wasn´t for Nike spreading his image world-wide?



> Every superstar gets treated that way. And Jordan was so unstoppable on his drives that yes, he was fouled most of the time.


One example: do you remember Jordan's move against the Knicks in the playoffs (that till this day keeps being showned on TV), where he is in the corner surrounded by two defenders, and swith-drives the baseline to the dunk? That's one of the most awfull travelling non-calls i have ever seen... Off course the ref wouldn't call it. It was Jordan DUNKING on the Knicks!...

Also liked Hakeem's response. Good post.


----------



## Hoopla

PauloCatarino said:


> Jordan only started winning when Bird, Magic, and even Zeke and the Pistons were through;


Magic wasn't exactly "through" when Jordan's team beat his in the 91 Finals. Jordan's team hadn't reached its peak until they won their first title. The Bulls were a young team in the late 80s and were not yet ready to make the next leap. You can't fault them for that.



> - Till then, he was viewed as an astounding player, but as somewhat of a "stat-padder";


Well most players until they win a title are viewed (and not necessarily fairly) in at least some negative way (too soft, stat-padder, chokes in the big game, lazy, etc). And besides, why are you bringing up how he was "viewed" back then when you just criticized people for having certain perceptions of him?



> The following victories were in an era where the overall talent was diluted, and there were no great franchises for the Bulls to compete with


Agreed that the Bulls didn't have the competition like was there in the 80s. But they still had to go out and win those titles, and they did every single year they were supposed to. That is an extremely difficult task to accomplish and the odds were against it happening, I don't care what the competition is.



> In the second three-peat, Jordan had the luxury of playing with 2 of the greatest defenders in the history of the NBA who SIMULTANEOUSLY were 2 great offensive players (Check out Rodman's offensive rebounds, if you need to)


Yes, he played with 2 great defensive players, although Rodman was not nearly as good as he was in Detroit. But he never played with any great offensive players. Pippen was a great defender with a very good offensive game. He was a terrific slasher, very good passer, and streaky shooter. But he was never a great offensive player.

And Rodman is now a "great offensive player"?! In his years with Chicago, he was a terrible offensive player. When on offense, the Bulls were virtually playing 4 on 5, as teams didnt bother paying attention to Rodman (who didn't help the cause by being so disinterested). He was an average passer, but he also averaged 2 turnovers a game which is extremely high for the amount that he had the ball in his hands.

As for the rebounds, he grabbed about five per game. With a 50% scoring rate on offensive rebounds, that comes out to approximately 5 points from those rebounds. And it's safe to say that at least one of those every game was put back by Rodman himself which factors into his 5ppg anyway. So he averaged 5ppg, and contributed 3ppg by virtue of his offensive rebounding. I fail to see how in the world you can call him a great offensive player.



> He rode Nike's wagon, which enhanced greatly his feats


First and foremost, Jordan rode his accomplishments. And Nike didn't enhance his feats; as you mentioned earlier it enhanced the public's perception of him. His feats are his feats, and they are what gives him his place in NBA history.



> He had preferential treatment from both the League (marketing-wise) and the refs (was there ever a call made on Jordan's palming?)


Jordan certainly got preferential treatment from the refs, but all superstars do. And is there ever a call made on anyone's palming? Even the most fundamental of players, John Stockton, got away with a ridiculous amount of it.



> Hater?


You a hater? Naww... :grinning:


----------



## hirschmanz

Don't forget the bulls got ron harper the year jordan left, the most underrated player on that 72 win team.

He shouldered the load nicely in the regular season, but jordan's competitiveness was sorely missing in the playoffs.

Maybe he is a little overhyped, but its all in the good name of basketball.


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## The Truth

Ah, the mandatory annual (or monthly?) Jordan wasn't so great discussion...

86-87: 37.1 ppg, 48.2% fg
87-88: 35.0 ppg, 53.5% fg
88-89: 32.5 ppg, 53.8% fg
89-90: 33.6 ppg, 52.6% fg
90-91: 31.5 ppg, 53.9% fg

72-10

I'm not usually comfortable reducing these arguments to a few stats, but these stats are so overwhelming, they speak for themselves. Wake me up the next time a shooting guard averages 35 ppg on 53.5% shooting from the floor. 

I am of course ignoring that Jordan was one of the great defenders of all time.

Haters never die.


----------



## kflo

jordan's the greatest shooting guard of all time, beyond a doubt. he's the greatest scoring perimeter player of all-time, beyond a doubt.

doubt starts creeping in when you start talking about players who contributed in ways better than jordan. shaq, hakeem, russell, wilt and kareem dominated the paint and the boards. shaq and kareem and wilt additionally were dominant scorers who scored more efficiently (jordan actually scored more efficiently than hakeem). bird and magic were better passers and rebounders, who both had a more natural feel for the game. both were excellent scorers (bird better than magic) and efficient scorers (magic better than bird). jordan kills them on defense.

does jordan give you the best chance to win? his list of accomplishments are unmatched, and he has no weaknesses for his position. he has the least strikes against him, and the most notches in his belt (although russell's titles are pretty ridiculous). but some great players contributed in some important ways better than jordan. it leaves the best ever debate open for all-time.


----------



## PauloCatarino

kflo said:


> jordan's the greatest shooting guard of all time, beyond a doubt. he's the greatest scoring perimeter player of all-time, beyond a doubt.
> 
> doubt starts creeping in when you start talking about players who contributed in ways better than jordan. shaq, hakeem, russell, wilt and kareem dominated the paint and the boards. shaq and kareem and wilt additionally were dominant scorers who scored more efficiently (jordan actually scored more efficiently than hakeem). bird and magic were better passers and rebounders, who both had a more natural feel for the game. both were excellent scorers (bird better than magic) and efficient scorers (magic better than bird). jordan kills them on defense.
> 
> does jordan give you the best chance to win? his list of accomplishments are unmatched, and he has no weaknesses for his position. he has the least strikes against him, and the most notches in his belt (although russell's titles are pretty ridiculous). but some great players contributed in some important ways better than jordan. it leaves the best ever debate open for all-time.


You know, kflo, this must be one of the best non-biased posts i´ve read in quite some time. :clap: 

(although that "unmatched" thingy is dubious, imho)


----------



## PauloCatarino

The Truth said:


> Ah, the mandatory annual (or monthly?) Jordan wasn't so great discussion...
> 
> 86-87: 37.1 ppg, 48.2% fg
> 87-88: 35.0 ppg, 53.5% fg
> 88-89: 32.5 ppg, 53.8% fg
> 89-90: 33.6 ppg, 52.6% fg
> 90-91: 31.5 ppg, 53.9% fg
> 
> 72-10
> 
> I'm not usually comfortable reducing these arguments to a few stats, but these stats are so overwhelming, they speak for themselves. Wake me up the next time a shooting guard averages 35 ppg on 53.5% shooting from the floor.
> 
> I am of course ignoring that Jordan was one of the great defenders of all time.
> 
> Haters never die.


You're kidding, right?

Should i put up the stats of Wilt Chamberlain first 5 seasons?
Or Oscar's?

Cause they completely blow the ones you posted out of the water.


----------



## charlz

sherako said:


> a shorter answer to the question would be; "hard work and good luck".


Micheal Jordan has a very <b>obsession</b> with winning. one which he developed at a young age when his older brother Larry used to always beat him.

I would go so far as to say he is <b>mentaly disturbed</b> with regard to how obsessed he was with winning. You would have to be in order to practice so much.


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## Sir Patchwork

kflo said:


> jordan's the greatest shooting guard of all time, beyond a doubt. he's the greatest scoring perimeter player of all-time, beyond a doubt.
> 
> doubt starts creeping in when you start talking about players who contributed in ways better than jordan. shaq, hakeem, russell, wilt and kareem dominated the paint and the boards. shaq and kareem and wilt additionally were dominant scorers who scored more efficiently (jordan actually scored more efficiently than hakeem). bird and magic were better passers and rebounders, who both had a more natural feel for the game. both were excellent scorers (bird better than magic) and efficient scorers (magic better than bird). jordan kills them on defense.
> 
> does jordan give you the best chance to win? his list of accomplishments are unmatched, and he has no weaknesses for his position. he has the least strikes against him, and the most notches in his belt (although russell's titles are pretty ridiculous). but some great players contributed in some important ways better than jordan. it leaves the best ever debate open for all-time.


Pippen is the underrated player of the Bulls dynasty. I think if you replace Jordan with Kareem or Shaq, you might still win those titles. With Phil Jackson coaching, some pretty good bench players, and an inside-outside combination featuring Pippen and Shaq/Kareem.


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## bkbballer16

MJ palyed ever since he was a kid.


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## The Truth

PauloCatarino said:


> You're kidding, right?
> 
> Should i put up the stats of Wilt Chamberlain first 5 seasons?
> Or Oscar's?
> 
> Cause they completely blow the ones you posted out of the water.


But they weren't playing during the so-called NBA glory years of Magic, Larry, and the Bad Boys that you so fondly remember.

Go ahead and post their stats. The I'll post the names of some of the players they were playing against.


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## djtoneblaze

Who do you guys think comes closest to having the same combination that Jordan had?

I think it's pretty obvious that it is Kobe Bryant. I don't think there's ever been a player - including Jordan - to have the actual SKILLset that Kobe has. Jordan was a little more athletic, faster, and a higher leaper than Kobe, and he also didn't do some of the stupid things Kobe does (taking ridiculous shots to, I'm assuming, prove that he can make them), but as far as fundamentally sound basketball skills, I don't think anyone has ever approached Kobe's level.


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## djtoneblaze

Someone tell me how Bird had a more "natural" feel for the game than Jordan. What you mean is Bird was less athletic than Jordan.

No one can say that with a straight face and then follow it up with JORDAN is the one that is being overhyped.

There weren't very many players with an equal or better feel for the game or more intelligence than Jordan. Isiah and Magic are the only two I would even say had a better feel for the game (before the hate comes in, Bird is right up there with them all too).


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## PauloCatarino

The Truth said:


> But they weren't playing during the so-called NBA glory years of Magic, Larry, and the Bad Boys that you so fondly remember.


And in those years Jordan won a whoping 1 title (against a Laker team with an injured Worthy). that pretty much covers the stats you pulled...



> Go ahead and post their stats. The I'll post the names of some of the players they were playing against.


Sure.
Wilt:
59-60: 37.6 - 27.0 - 2.3 (one of the 2 players that earned ROY and MVP);
60-61: 38.4 - 27.2 - 1.9
61-62: 50.4 - 25.7 - 2.4
62-63: 44.8 - 24.3 - 3.4
63-64: 36.9 - 22.3 - 5.0

"Players they were playing against"? Well, considering Wilt broke the NBA record fo rebounds in a game against none other than Bill Russell...
And how come "players he was playing against" account for the fact that he once led the league in assists per game?

Oscar:
Let's just say he averaged a triple double in his firts 5 years, summing all stats...

I know what you'll say... Wilt had no real competition... Lets' just say that these are some of the players Wilt faced *in his first 5 seasons*: Cousy, Russell, Pettit, Baylor, Sharman, Oscar, West, Havlicek, Jerry Lucas, and many others.

In many people's books (for example Slam magazine's All-time Top 75), in his first 5 years in the League Wilt had to play against 6 of the All-time Top 20 players...

RECOGNIZE!


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## djtoneblaze

The fact that damn near EVERY player Jordan ever played against said he's the best of all-time should mean something. I'm talking about Bird, Magic, Isiah, Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, all of these guys, say that Jordan was the greatest player they'd ever played against.


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## numlock

> account for the fact that he once led the league in assists per game?


well that isnt a fact. He led the league in total assists but that year oscar played 65 games. 67-68


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## Jester

As you go further back through NBA history, the stats become more and more inflated due to a number of factors.


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## PauloCatarino

djtoneblaze said:


> The fact that damn near EVERY player Jordan ever played against said he's the best of all-time should mean something. I'm talking about Bird, Magic, Isiah, Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, all of these guys, say that Jordan was the greatest player they'd ever played against.


Bird and Magic never said that.
Bird said that Magic was the best player he played against.
Magic said that Jordan "was the best now" (after he and Larry couldn't go any further)
The others, i've never heard it.


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## PauloCatarino

numlock said:


> well that isnt a fact. He led the league in total assists but that year oscar played 65 games. 67-68


That is correct. My bad. Wilt lead in total assists. Oscar, in apg...


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## The Truth

PauloCatarino said:


> And in those years Jordan won a whoping 1 title (against a Laker team with an injured Worthy). that pretty much covers the stats you pulled...


No it doesn't...you are ignoring the fact that Jordan had no supporting cast...Give him half the supporting cast Bird had in the 80's.





> Sure.
> Wilt:
> 59-60: 37.6 - 27.0 - 2.3 (one of the 2 players that earned ROY and MVP);
> 60-61: 38.4 - 27.2 - 1.9
> 61-62: 50.4 - 25.7 - 2.4
> 62-63: 44.8 - 24.3 - 3.4
> 63-64: 36.9 - 22.3 - 5.0
> 
> "Players they were playing against"? Well, considering Wilt broke the NBA record fo rebounds in a game against none other than Bill Russell...
> And how come "players he was playing against" account for the fact that he once led the league in assists per game?


And to use your own argument, how many championships did he win in those seasons?



> Oscar:
> Let's just say he averaged a triple double in his firts 5 years, summing all stats...


Incredibly impressive. I'm still more impressed by Jordan's stats in the 80's against better competition.



> I know what you'll say... Wilt had no real competition... Lets' just say that these are some of the players Wilt faced *in his first 5 seasons*: Cousy, Russell, Pettit, Baylor, Sharman, Oscar, West, Havlicek, Jerry Lucas, and many others.
> 
> In many people's books (for example Slam magazine's All-time Top 75), in his first 5 years in the League Wilt had to play against 6 of the All-time Top 20 players...


So how did Wilt do against those top players in the playoffs? He could put up those gaudy per game numbers in the regular season, but it was a different story in the postseason. Jordan is the all-time playoffs scoring leader at 33.4 ppg, Chamberlain comes in at 27.3 ppg.



> RECOGNIZE!


People still say that?


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## PauloCatarino

The Truth said:


> No it doesn't...you are ignoring the fact that Jordan had no supporting cast...Give him half the supporting cast Bird had in the 80's.


You were the one defending that Jordan's stats alone could make a difference. Well, they don't. Compared with some of the Legend's stats, they pale. 



> And to use your own argument, how many championships did he win in those seasons?


Weren't we talking about stats? :angel: 



> Incredibly impressive. I'm still more impressed by Jordan's stats in the 80's against better competition.


Hint: check Jordan's MVP season in the 80's, compare it with Bird's stats (and results) the same season and tell me Jordan deserved the award...



> So how did Wilt do against those top players in the playoffs? He could put up those gaudy per game numbers in the regular season, but it was a different story in the postseason. Jordan is the all-time playoffs scoring leader at 33.4 ppg, Chamberlain comes in at 27.3 ppg.


Hehe. Funny.
In the years Jordan put up the stats you pulled, he won one championship. and that's counting the 2 years you left behind.
And why are you bringing up playoff stats? If that's the criteria, Jerry West is the GOAT!



> People still say that?


STAT-PADDER! (is that better?) :angel:


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## Jester

I'm not sure why you're arguing about whose stats are more impressive. Overall, Jordan is the most accomplished player of all time.


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## PauloCatarino

Jester said:


> I'm not sure why you're arguing about whose stats are more impressive. Overall, Jordan is the most accomplished player of all time.


Nice argument, young grasshopper... Have you heard about a man who has 11 NBA Championships? If not, please google "Bill Russell" and get back to me about that "accomplished player of all time" comment...


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## Jester

PauloCatarino said:


> Nice argument, young grasshopper... Have you heard about a man who has 11 NBA Championships? If not, please google "Bill Russell" and get back to me about that "accomplished player of all time" comment...


Those 11 rings came in an era with relatively weak competition. Bill Russell entered the league when there were only *eight* teams. No no no! Not eight playoff teams...eight teams in the _entire league_. During the Celtics' first championship run (1957), in the Finals they faced the St. Louis Hawks who were *below .500* (34-38). Those Hawks happened to take the Celtics to the full 7 games that year, eventually losing. The next season, the Celtics lost to the Hawks in the Finals.

1959 - The Celtics face yet again another team in the Conference Finals with a record below .500, the Syracuse Nationals. That series also went the full 7 games.

Can you see where this is going? Does this heavy competition impress you more than Jordan's 6 truly dominant championship runs against his competition?


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## Jester

Just what are some of Jordan's accomplishments, you ask? Here's a list of I compiled over a year ago. Some may be outdated or mistaken. Keep in mind that these are not to prove Jordan was better than any other player, but to make his case as the most accomplished player.

Honors:
6 NBA Championships
5 MVP Awards
6 Finals MVP Awards
3 All-Star MVP Awards
14-time All-Star, 13-time starter
10 Scoring Titles
3-time season leader in steals
2-time Slam Dunk Contest Champion
10-time selection to All-NBA First Team
1-time selection to All-NBA Second Team
9-time selection to All-Defensive First Team
2 Olympic Gold Medals
Rookie of the Year
All-Rookie Team

Records:
All-time leading NBA career scoring average (30.12 ppg)
Holds All-Star Game record for most career points (262)
Holds All-Star Game record for most career steals (37)
Holds All-Star Game record for most FGM (110)
Holds All-Star Game record for most FGA (233)
Holds All-Star Game record for most times as top vote getter (9)
Shares Dunk Contest record for most perfect scores on individual dunks (5)
Holds NBA record for largest time differential between first and last MVPs (1988-1998, 10 years)
Holds NBA record for most seasons in top-3 MVP voting (10)
Holds NBA record for most consecutive games scoring in double digits (842)
Holds NBA record for most seasons leading in scoring (10)
Holds NBA record for most seasons leading in FGA (10)
Holds NBA record for most seasons leading in FGM (10)
Holds NBA record for most total blocks in a season by a guard (131)
Holds NBA record for most blocks per game in a season by a guard (1.60)
Shares NBA record for most seasons leading in total steals (3)
Shares NBA record for most seasons leading in steals per game (3)
Shares NBA record for most consecutive seasons leading in scoring (7)
Shares NBA record for most consecutive games of 40+ points (9)
Holds NBA single-game record for most FTM in one half (20)
Holds NBA single-game record for most FTA in one half (23)
Holds NBA single-game record for most FTM in one quarter (14)
Holds NBA single-game record for most FTA in one quarter (16)
Shares NBA single-game record for most steals in one half (8)
All-time leading playoff scorer (5,762 pts)
Holds NBA Playoffs single-game record for most points (63)
Shares NBA Playoffs single-game record for most FGM (24)
Shares NBA Playoffs single-game record for most FGA in one half (25)
Shares NBA Playoffs single-game record for most three-pointers made in one half (6)
Holds NBA Playoffs record for total points in a three-game series (135, ’92 vs. MIA)
Holds NBA Playoffs record for total points in a five-game series (226, ’88 vs. CLE)
Holds NBA Playoffs record for most points (5,987)
Holds NBA Playoffs record for highest PPG average (33.4 ppg)
Holds NBA Playoffs record for most FGA (4,497)
Holds NBA Playoffs record for most FTM (1,463)
Holds NBA Playoffs record for most FTA (1,766)
Holds NBA Playoffs record for most steals (376)
Holds NBA Finals record for highest single-series scoring average (41.0 ppg)
Holds NBA Finals single-series record for most field goals made (101)
Holds NBA Finals record for most three-pointers made (42)
Holds NBA Finals record for most consecutive games with 20+ pts (35)
Holds NBA Finals single-game record for most pts in one half (35)
Holds NBA Finals single-series record for most total points (246 in six games vs. Phoenix)
Holds NBA Finals single-series record for most total steals (14 in five games vs. LA)
Shares NBA Finals single-game record for most field goals made in one half (14)
Shares NBA Finals record for most three-pointers made in one half (6)
Shares NBA Finals record for most FTM in one quarter (9)
Shares NBA Finals record for most FTA in one quarter (15)

Other all-time rankings:
Ranked 3rd all-time in total points
Ranked 2nd all-time in total steals
Ranked 6th all-time in highest single-season scoring average (37.1)
Ranked 3rd all-time in most points in a season (3041)
Ranked 2nd all-time in most career games of 50+ points (31)
Ranked 3rd all-time in most season games of 40+ points (37)
Ranked 2nd all-time in most career games of 40+ points (173)
Ranked 3rd all-time in most consecutive games of 40+ points (9)
Ranked 2nd all-time in most seasons of 2,000+ points (11)
Ranked 6th all-time in most consecutive seasons of 2,000+ points (7)
Ranked 3rd all-time in most seasons leading league in minutes (3)
Ranked 3rd all-time in most consecutive seasons leading league in minutes (3)
Ranked 3rd all-time in most FTM in single season (833)
Ranked 5th all-time in most FTM in single game (26)
Ranked 2nd and 3rd all-time in highest Dunk Contest score in any round (147, 148)
Ranked 4th all-time in All-Star Game scoring average (20.2)

Trivial accomplishments:
Won regular-season MVP, all-star MVP, and Finals MVP in the same season (did it twice)
First player to win three consecutive NBA Finals MVP awards
First player to win the All-Star Dunk Contest back-to-back
First player since Wilt Chamberlain to score 3,000 points in a single season
Recorded the only triple-double in All-Star Game history (14 pts, 11 reb, 11 ast)
Only 40-year-old NBA player to ever score 40+ points (2/21/03)
Oldest player to score 50+ points (age 38)
28 Game-winning shots (28 made, 26 missed)
28 Career triple-doubles
8 playoff games with 50+ points


----------



## PauloCatarino

Nice couple of posts, Jester. I'll rep you for that. It's refereshing to see someone putting a case for Jordan and not resort to say something like "Be Like Mike", "the Nike shoes", "the dunks" or other BS...

Now, about what you posted:

Nice try, baby, but it won't fly with me.

For "accomplished player" there is no *objective *reason not to pick Russell... Come on, baby, he almost DOUBLES Jordan's rings...

Let's find another criteria, should we?

I can think of a couple, but i'd like you to go first... Please tell me why do you think that Jordan is the GOAT (and please don't resort to the "accomplishments" you posted: other people have more rings, more All-Nba firsts, better all-around stats, you name it).

Go ahead. Make my day. :angel:


----------



## Jester

PauloCatarino said:


> I can think of a couple, but i'd like you to go first... Please tell me why do you think that Jordan is the GOAT (and please don't resort to the "accomplishments" you posted: other people have more rings, more All-Nba firsts, better all-around stats, you name it).


A player doesn't need to be greater than another player in every single category. *Overall*, Jordan is more accomplished than any other player.

And I'm not up to making the billionth case for Jordan as the GOAT. :biggrin: 

But I will make some points about Jordan's competition: In the Finals, Jordan faced 58, 57, 62, 64, 64, and 62-win teams, respectively. Only six 60+ win teams in NBA history have lost in the Finals. Jordan's teams dispatched half of those teams: Seattle in '96 (who happened to be the the second most efficient defensive team in the league, behind the Bulls), and Utah in '97 (second most efficient offensive team in the league, behind the Bulls) and '98 (most efficient offensive team in the league). 

None of his Finals ever went the full 7 games. The Bulls finished half of their title games on the road. In fact, Jordan only played in 3 game sevens, with a 2-1 record: the one loss against none other than Detroit, and the two wins during championship runs.

Jordan was 25-1 in his last 26 playoff series. That one loss was at the hands of the Shaq-led Magic '95, who the Bulls swept the very next season. Now, in '95 they didn't have Rodman, of course, but they also didn't have a Jordan in basketball form. However, they did have Grant in '94 when they lost to the Knicks. Guess who the Bulls also beat in '96 along with the Magic? The Knicks, 4-1. Talk about redemption.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Jester said:


> A player doesn't need to be greater than another player in every single category. *Overall*, Jordan is more accomplished than any other player.
> 
> And I'm not up to making the billionth case for Jordan as the GOAT. :biggrin:
> 
> But I will make some points about Jordan's competition: In the Finals, Jordan faced 58, 57, 62, 64, 64, and 62-win teams, respectively. Only six 60+ win teams in NBA history have lost in the Finals. Jordan's teams dispatched half of those teams: Seattle in '96 (who happened to be the the second most efficient defensive team in the league, behind the Bulls), and Utah in '97 (second most efficient offensive team in the league, behind the Bulls) and '98 (most efficient offensive team in the league).
> 
> None of his Finals ever went the full 7 games. The Bulls finished half of their title games on the road. In fact, Jordan only played in 3 game sevens, with a 2-1 record: the one loss against none other than Detroit, and the two wins during championship runs.
> 
> Jordan was 25-1 in his last 26 playoff series. That one loss was at the hands of the Shaq-led Magic '95, who the Bulls swept the very next season. Now, in '95 they didn't have Rodman, of course, but they also didn't have a Jordan in basketball form. However, they did have Grant in '94 when they lost to the Knicks. Guess who the Bulls also beat in '96 along with the Magic? The Knicks, 4-1. Talk about redemption.



Pfff...

If ANY ONE of those teams could be considered as great as, say, the Dynasty Celtics, the West-Baylor-Wilt Lakers, or the 80's Celtics, Lakers, Sixers, Rockets, Pistons and Blazers, you could have a point.

But since that isn't the case, you don't...

At least Russell can say that he won multiple rings against Wilt and West.
Jordan can say it about... heh... Malone? Payton?...

a world of difference right there...


----------



## HKF

40 years from now, Wilt's accomplishments will appear to be inflated as will Jordan's to fans coming up in the era of 2040.


----------



## kflo

djtoneblaze said:


> Someone tell me how Bird had a more "natural" feel for the game than Jordan. What you mean is Bird was less athletic than Jordan.


no, what i mean is that bird had a more natural feel for the game.




djtoneblaze said:


> No one can say that with a straight face and then follow it up with JORDAN is the one that is being overhyped.
> 
> There weren't very many players with an equal or better feel for the game or more intelligence than Jordan. Isiah and Magic are the only two I would even say had a better feel for the game (before the hate comes in, Bird is right up there with them all too).


bird, i'd say, had a much better feel than isiah, and at least equal to magic. his feel for the game was uncanny. he had a natural awareness of his circumstances that i'd say were easily better than jordan's. it's part of the reason he was able to take a never heard of before or since indiana state team to the championship game, and turn the celts into 60 a win team immediately. he new the game, knew how to incorporate the pieces around him. from the beginning. and, imo, he was easily a better passer than jordan.


----------



## The Truth

PauloCatarino said:


> For "accomplished player" there is no *objective *reason not to pick Russell... Come on, baby, he almost DOUBLES Jordan's rings...
> 
> Let's find another criteria, should we?


Nice try in dismissing a valid argument. During Russell's first championship there were only 8 teams, that is an objective fact. The obvious conclusion one can draw is that the road to the championship was far less rigorous than when Jordan played. There is absolutely no reason to dismiss that argument.



> I can think of a couple, but i'd like you to go first... Please tell me why do you think that Jordan is the GOAT (and please don't resort to the "accomplishments" you posted: other people have more rings, more All-Nba firsts, better all-around stats, you name it).



Why not "resort" to those accomplishments? Sure some players may have more rings or more this and that, but when taken as a whole, these accomplishments are unparalleled.

Don't even get me into the talent pool argument. The talent pool that Russell, Chamberlain, and Robertson competed against was _microscopic_ compared to the pool that Jordan competed against.


----------



## The Truth

PauloCatarino said:


> Pfff...
> 
> If ANY ONE of those teams could be considered as great as, say, the Dynasty Celtics, the West-Baylor-Wilt Lakers, or the 80's Celtics, Lakers, Sixers, Rockets, Pistons and Blazers, you could have a point.
> 
> But since that isn't the case, you don't...


Wait a minute, I thought you wanted to rely on *objective* facts. I guess only when it suits your argument.



> At least Russell can say that he won multiple rings against Wilt and West.
> Jordan can say it about... heh... Malone? Payton?...
> 
> a world of difference right there...


Are you arguing that Russell is the greatest of all time? What's your point?


----------



## Hakeem

bkbballer16 said:


> MJ palyed ever since he was a kid.


So did I.



djtoneblaze said:


> The fact that damn near EVERY player Jordan ever played against said he's the best of all-time should mean something. I'm talking about Bird, Magic, Isiah, Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, all of these guys, say that Jordan was the greatest player they'd ever played against.


Neither Bird, Magic or Hakeem said Jordan was the greatest player they'd ever played against.



Jester said:


> But I will make some points about Jordan's competition: In the Finals, Jordan faced 58, 57, 62, 64, 64, and 62-win teams, respectively. Only six 60+ win teams in NBA history have lost in the Finals. Jordan's teams dispatched half of those teams: Seattle in '96 (who happened to be the the second most efficient defensive team in the league, behind the Bulls), and Utah in '97 (second most efficient offensive team in the league, behind the Bulls) and '98 (most efficient offensive team in the league).


You replace Jordan with any other GOAT contender, and I'll bet they would have still won all those titles.


----------



## Adol

This PauloCatarino has to be a troll. He just has to be.


----------



## jalen5

Players these days (beginning with Jordan's days) as a whole and on average are way faster, quicker, athletic, talented, skilled, etc. than before Jordan's day. Training, medicine, supplements, and so on have given today's players an edge and advantage over players in the past. Therefore, players today are simply better. Not to say a Bill Russell or a Wilt Chamberlain wouldn't have been great players in this age but the average player (their opponents and teammates) were not nearly as good as the players in today's game. There were many players before Magic and Bird's day that were well known "stars" that would not have been had they played in a later era. The athleticism and speed these days would just have been too great for earlier era players to handle. Jordan was ONE of the best athletes and definitely the best overall basketball player to ever play the game. I don't think a Jerry West, for example, could stand a chance against Jordan.


----------



## SoCalfan21

Air Fly said:


> There is little argument that Michael Jordan is the best basketball player of his era, if not of all time. With Six Championship Rings, Five MVP Awards, and countless other awards, he is perhaps the most dominating player ever. But, what makes him so good? And how on earth did he get so good? and do you miss him?
> 
> Yep I miss the God of basketball, and all of those high flying moves, reverse lay-ups, and gravity defying shots he was able to do.



its gotta be the steroids..


----------



## PauloCatarino

The Truth said:


> Are you arguing that Russell is the greatest of all time? What's your point?


My point is that one can put up a *valid * argument that either Wilt, Magic, Kareem, Jordan or Russell can be the G.O.A.T..

That's all i'm saying.

Now, if anyone wants to say there´s a *clear-cut* GOAT (wether it's Jordan, Wilt or my personal favourite Magic) i will never agree.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Adol said:


> This PauloCatarino has to be a troll. He just has to be.


And why is that, Adolf?


----------



## kflo

jalen5 said:


> Players these days (beginning with Jordan's days) as a whole and on average are way faster, quicker, athletic, talented, skilled, etc. than before Jordan's day. Training, medicine, supplements, and so on have given today's players an edge and advantage over players in the past. Therefore, players today are simply better. Not to say a Bill Russell or a Wilt Chamberlain wouldn't have been great players in this age but the average player (their opponents and teammates) were not nearly as good as the players in today's game. There were many players before Magic and Bird's day that were well known "stars" that would not have been had they played in a later era. The athleticism and speed these days would just have been too great for earlier era players to handle. Jordan was ONE of the best athletes and definitely the best overall basketball player to ever play the game. I don't think a Jerry West, for example, could stand a chance against Jordan.


do you know how good jerry west was? he was extremely athletic, and had extremely long arms. he was one of the best defenders in the league. west could stand a chance against jordan about as well as anyone else.


----------



## PauloCatarino

kflo said:


> do you know how good jerry west was? he was extremely athletic, and had extremely long arms. he was one of the best defenders in the league. west could stand a chance against jordan about as well as anyone else.


What people seem to fail to realize is that if * some *players of yesterday played in the 90's, they would be even BETTER.

West was athletic. Hondo was athletic. Wilt was a physical freak. Baylor was a monster. And these guys played in an era where the training was NOT the same as it is today, they didn't eat right, players would drink and smoke, you name it (and, off course, there wasn't much physical-enhancing drugs around...)

If these guys played in Jordan's era, i bet they would be even better...


----------



## kflo

the rules also didn't benefit athleticism the same way it does today. quickness wasn't as valued in part because the palming rules were so different. dribbling was basically with the hand on top of the ball at all times. offense was valued over defense, so athletes with less basketball skills didn't have as much of a place. 

the biggest affect training has is making guys stronger and bulkier. speed and jumping ability are minimally increased (the world record in the 100m has gone from 9.95 to 9.77 in 37 years. bob beamon's 1968 long jump record has been surpassed once, in 1991). 

yes, overall the league is far more athletic than it was (again, in part, because teams value it more), but the elite athletes of yesteryear would mostly be elite athletes today.


----------



## The Truth

PauloCatarino said:


> My point is that one can put up a *valid * argument that either Wilt, Magic, Kareem, Jordan or Russell can be the G.O.A.T..
> 
> That's all i'm saying.
> 
> Now, if anyone wants to say there´s a *clear-cut* GOAT (wether it's Jordan, Wilt or my personal favourite Magic) i will never agree.


That is not what you are saying...you went on a diatribe about how Jordan was overhyped.


----------



## PauloCatarino

The Truth said:


> That is not what you are saying...you went on a diatribe about how Jordan was overhyped.


The vast majority of posters would say there is no doubt Jordan was the greatest ever.
I don't agree.
I stated my reasonings as to why i don't think Jordan is the clear-cut best ever.
One of my reasonings was that he was overhyped.

That simple.

Although i personally believe Wilt was the greatest ever, i easily concede discussion about 3-4 players more.


----------



## jalen5

kflo said:


> do you know how good jerry west was? he was extremely athletic, and had extremely long arms. he was one of the best defenders in the league. west could stand a chance against jordan about as well as anyone else.


I'm not saying he wasn't good. I'm saying I don't think he could have guarded Jordan. But then again, you are probably right when you said that West could stand a chance against Jordan about as well as anyone else. And you know why?? Cuz no one can guard Jordan. And Jordan was not overhyped. He earned and deserved every praise, penny, attention, endorsement, fan, etc. that he ever got and still gets.


----------



## PauloCatarino

jalen5 said:


> I'm not saying he wasn't good. I'm saying I don't think he could have guarded Jordan. But then again, you are probably right when you said that West could stand a chance against Jordan about as well as anyone else. And you know why?? Cuz no one can guard Jordan. *And Jordan was not overhyped. He earned and deserved every praise, penny, attention, endorsement, fan, etc. that he ever got and still gets.*


Well, considering Jordan stoped playing *meaningfull* basketball like 7 years ago and in this same board there threads like "Jordan as the greatest athlete of all time" and "How did Jordan got so good", there's really no argument to him being overhyped... :angel:


----------



## Adol

Overhyped...? No. Being overhyped is someone like Yao (not to take a shot at him, just a good example) of someon who gets incredible hype and doesn't live up to it (again, great player, but c'mon the things they were saying,...) Where Jordan was very very hyped, but he lived up to the hype. Go look at a list of Jordans individual accomplishments and you'll be floored. Oh, and not to mention those two little three peats. You sir are just plain and simple a Jordan hater.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Adol said:


> Overhyped...? No. Being overhyped is someone like Yao (not to take a shot at him, just a good example) of someon who gets incredible hype and doesn't live up to it (again, great player, but c'mon the things they were saying,...) Where Jordan was very very hyped, but he lived up to the hype. *Go look at a list of Jordans individual accomplishments and you'll be floored.*


I did.
And i didn't get "floored"



> Oh, and not to mention those two little three peats. You sir are just plain and simple a Jordan hater.


So What?


----------



## Adol

So what? SO WHAT!?!?!? Christ. I hate people like you who hate simply to hate. It just makes you look even more ridiculous when you hate on someone like Jordan who really was the total package. What, you think you're being avant-garde or something? There's no arguing with people like you because you don't use logic and sensible thinking, your opinion is biased, and you've already made up your mind. It's the same thing as being a racist...I don't like Chinese people! So I'm going to rip on them and ignore their incredible accomplishments. Why do you do this? Who knows. Maybe you're just one of those guys who always goes against popular opinion to be different. 

There's a reason why jordan is so highly regarded, and it's not hype.


----------



## Air Fly

Adol said:


> So what? SO WHAT!?!?!? Christ. I hate people like you who hate simply to hate. It just makes you look even more ridiculous when you hate on someone like Jordan who really was the total package. What, you think you're being avant-garde or something? There's no arguing with people like you because you don't use logic and sensible thinking, your opinion is biased, and you've already made up your mind. It's the same thing as being a racist...I don't like Chinese people! So I'm going to rip on them and ignore their incredible accomplishments. Why do you do this? Who knows. Maybe you're just one of those guys who always goes against popular opinion to be different.
> 
> There's a reason why jordan is so highly regarded, and it's not hype.


 :clap:


----------



## Air Fly

Adol said:


> Overhyped...? No. Being overhyped is someone like Yao (not to take a shot at him, just a good example) of someon who gets incredible hype and doesn't live up to it (again, great player, but c'mon the things they were saying,...) Where Jordan was very very hyped, but he lived up to the hype. Go look at a list of Jordans individual accomplishments and you'll be floored. Oh, and not to mention those two little three peats. *You sir are just plain and simple a Jordan hater.*


i thought i was the only one who think he is, but now i've got a partner :clap:


----------



## carrrnuttt

Air Fly said:


> i thought i was the only one who think he is, but now i've got a partner :clap:


Make it three.


----------



## Cammo

Four, I dont understand how you can hate on someone like MJ. He wasnt handed the glory, he worked his a$$ of for it.


----------



## 77AJ

Five,

MJ became something special through hard work and dedication and his desire and hunger to be the best bar none.

Anyone that doesn't accept MJ's hype is drinking hatorade, because the guy earned it on the hardwood. Not to mention he opened up huge markets for all these other younger stars to milk.

MJ is special no doubt about it.


----------



## SignGuyDino

IT'S GOTTA BE THE SHOES!! :biggrin:


----------



## soulhunter

Basketball IQ and the desire and need to be better than everybody else.


----------



## kflo

nobody is questioning whether mj was special. the question arises when he's presented as the unquestioned greatest player of all time. 

is someone a hater if they believe that someone else was a better player than mj?


----------



## PauloCatarino

kflo said:


> nobody is questioning whether mj was special. the question arises when he's presented as the unquestioned greatest player of all time.
> 
> is someone a hater if they believe that someone else was a better player than mj?


Exactly.


----------



## Jester

kflo said:


> nobody is questioning whether mj was special. the question arises when he's presented as the unquestioned greatest player of all time.
> 
> is someone a hater if they believe that someone else was a better player than mj?


He's not the unquestionable GOAT, and let's not assume that everyone who claims MJ is the GOAT believes it's unquestionable fact.

Paulo does appear to be a hater. I make a case for MJ as the most accomplished player by providing a list of accomplishments, and Paulo says, "Nice list, but it won't fly with me!"

I try to shed some light on Russell's competition, and he says, "but still, there's no objective reason not to pick Russell as the most accomplished player, because 11 > 6!"

Then he tells me to make a case for MJ as the GOAT, but that MJ's list of accomplishments has no relevance because this player has more rings, that player has more MVPs, another has better stats... yet fails to mention a single player whose _overall_ accomplishments surpass that of MJ's.

I make some points about MJ's competition, and he says, "but those teams weren't as great as the teams of the 80s!"

His case against MJ is that this player did that, another player did this, this team did that, MJ didn't do what this one player did. I want to see reasons why he thinks another player (apparently, Wilt) is the GOAT. So far, his reasoning would be like me saying that MJ has more rings than Wilt, the '96 Bulls had a better record than Wilt's '67 Sixers, Kareem has more MVPs than Wilt, Oscar averaged a triple-double and Wilt didn't, etc.

It seems like nothing "flies with Paulo" as long as it praises MJ.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Jester said:


> He's not the unquestionable GOAT, and let's not assume that everyone who claims MJ is the GOAT believes it's unquestionable fact.
> 
> Paulo does appear to be a hater. I make a case for MJ as the most accomplished player by providing a list of accomplishments, and Paulo says, "Nice list, but it won't fly with me!"
> 
> I try to shed some light on Russell's competition, and he says, "but still, there's no objective reason not to pick Russell as the most accomplished player, because 11 > 6!"
> 
> Then he tells me to make a case for MJ as the GOAT, but that MJ's list of accomplishments has no relevance because this player has more rings, that player has more MVPs, another has better stats... yet fails to mention a single player whose _overall_ accomplishments surpass that of MJ's.
> 
> I make some points about MJ's competition, and he says, "but those teams weren't as great as the teams of the 80s!"
> 
> His case against MJ is that this player did that, another player did this, this team did that, MJ didn't do what this one player did. I want to see reasons why he thinks another player (apparently, Wilt) is the GOAT. So far, his reasoning would be like me saying that MJ has more rings than Wilt, the '96 Bulls had a better record than Wilt's '67 Sixers, Kareem has more MVPs than Wilt, Oscar averaged a triple-double and Wilt didn't, etc.
> 
> It seems like nothing "flies with Paulo" as long as it praises MJ.


It ain't like that, really... What i was trying to avoid was t orepeat myself over and over again thorough the thread.
I'm sure that if you read my posts in this thread, my stand on the matter should become clarer.

Nevertheless, here it goes again, and trying to summarize:

1- I didn't have the chance to watch the 60's and 70's NBA. I've onlystarted watching around 1984-1985. to me, personally, the 80's were the best era of basketball. People will say that they didn't play defense back then. I don't agree. I think there was much more ball movement and the overall talent of the teams was higher.
As an example: I love Shaq and Ben Wallace games, but i sincerely can't remember watching a player during the 80's (i may be exagerating a bit) who couldn't consistently drain a jumper.
But i digress.
This is about *context*. It was a lot harder to win the chapionship back then, IMHO.

2- That's what i mean by Jordan's 6 rings having not that importance when discussing this issue. I consider Magic's 5 in the 80's a greater accomplishment. And even Bird's 3 don't come so distant...

3- My *personal* list of All-time greats have Wilt as #1 and Magic as #2.
The reason about Wilt is simple: he was a basketball freak. He broke records (most of them still stand). The league had to change the rules because of him. The 100 point game. The 55 rebound game. You name it. 
If one looks at players individually (and not regarding team success), there's no doubt in my mind that Wilt should be the unquestioned G.O.A.T.. He dominated his era like noone had ever done and noone likely will. A center leading the league in total assists? That's unheard of. And if the league had recorded blocks in his day, there´s also no doubt in my mind that Wilt (and Russell too) would be the distant leaders in triple-doubles thorough NBA history (and yes, they would probably have averaged a couple triple-double seasons).
So, Wilt is *my* #1.

Magic as #2 results simple, for me (and i admit being a little biased about him): he was the player who better combined individual excelence, team success and altruistic play. He did that in the best era of basketball, where he went to 9 NBA Finals and 5 rings. His competition during that era was very tough, both individually and collectively (sp?). During that span he played against Mo, Doc, Bird, Barkley, Karl, Hakeem, Stockton, McHale and Parish, Jordan an Pippen, Isiah, etc.. The Lakers also had to beat the Sixers, Celtics, Pistons (champioship teams), along with other good-to-great teams like the Blazers, Suns, San Antonio, Rockets, even Denver...

Magic was selected by SI the best athlete of the decade (notice that it wasn't best NBA player) during the (for me) best era of basketball... 

4- Like i've posted, i believe a cause can be made for at least 5 players


----------



## carrrnuttt

PauloCatarino said:


> *context*. It was a lot harder to win the chapionship back then, IMHO.


What? When there were eight teams in the league?


----------



## Kel Varnsen

jordan was a winner; he wasn't afraid to take responsibility and he couldn't stand losing. in addition, he was the best basketballer of all time!


----------



## numb555

Jordan changed basketball landscape, everyone wanted to be like Mike! Just ask Kobe, and the USA Olympic team!... Jordan created the dominant heroism perimetre player, and everyone bought into it. Unfortunately most of the players that want to be like Mike may have the physical abilities, but not the mental capabilities. Thats what separated Jordan from the rest.


----------



## PauloCatarino

carrrnuttt said:


> What? When there were eight teams in the league?


I was mainly refering to the 80's.

But, by the way, how many times a year did Wilt had to face Russell and the might Celtics?


----------



## Air Fly

PauloCatarino said:


> It ain't like that, really... What i was trying to avoid was t orepeat myself over and over again thorough the thread.
> I'm sure that if you read my posts in this thread, my stand on the matter should become clarer.
> 
> Nevertheless, here it goes again, and trying to summarize:
> 
> 1- I didn't have the chance to watch the 60's and 70's NBA. I've onlystarted watching around 1984-1985. to me, personally, the 80's were the best era of basketball. People will say that they didn't play defense back then. I don't agree. I think there was much more ball movement and the overall talent of the teams was higher.
> As an example: I love Shaq and Ben Wallace games, but i sincerely can't remember watching a player during the 80's (i may be exagerating a bit) who couldn't consistently drain a jumper.
> But i digress.
> This is about *context*. It was a lot harder to win the chapionship back then, IMHO.
> 
> 2- That's what i mean by Jordan's 6 rings having not that importance when discussing this issue. I consider Magic's 5 in the 80's a greater accomplishment. And even Bird's 3 don't come so distant...
> 
> 3- My *personal* list of All-time greats have Wilt as #1 and Magic as #2.
> The reason about Wilt is simple: he was a basketball freak. He broke records (most of them still stand). The league had to change the rules because of him. The 100 point game. The 55 rebound game. You name it.
> If one looks at players individually (and not regarding team success), there's no doubt in my mind that Wilt should be the unquestioned G.O.A.T.. He dominated his era like noone had ever done and noone likely will. A center leading the league in total assists? That's unheard of. And if the league had recorded blocks in his day, there´s also no doubt in my mind that Wilt (and Russell too) would be the distant leaders in triple-doubles thorough NBA history (and yes, they would probably have averaged a couple triple-double seasons).
> So, Wilt is *my* #1.
> 
> Magic as #2 results simple, for me (and i admit being a little biased about him): he was the player who better combined individual excelence, team success and altruistic play. He did that in the best era of basketball, where he went to 9 NBA Finals and 5 rings. His competition during that era was very tough, both individually and collectively (sp?). During that span he played against Mo, Doc, Bird, Barkley, Karl, Hakeem, Stockton, McHale and Parish, Jordan an Pippen, Isiah, etc.. The Lakers also had to beat the Sixers, Celtics, Pistons (champioship teams), along with other good-to-great teams like the Blazers, Suns, San Antonio, Rockets, even Denver...
> 
> Magic was selected by SI the best athlete of the decade (notice that it wasn't best NBA player) during the (for me) best era of basketball...
> 
> 4- Like i've posted, i believe a cause can be made for at least 5 players


*without jordan you wouldnt be talking basketball
without jordan kobe, lebron, vince wouldnt have exist
without jordan you wouldnt be wearing Nike shoes *
and the list goes on, someone please add to this list so this dude can shut his crap.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Air Fly said:


> *without jordan you wouldnt be talking basketball
> without jordan kobe, lebron, vince wouldnt have exist
> without jordan you wouldnt be wearing Nike shoes *
> and the list goes on, someone please add to this list so this dude can shut his crap.


For a guy who wasn't even born when Dr. J, Moses and Kareem were winning MVPs, you sure have a big mouth.
And when Magic won back-to-back MVPs, you were what? 2?

About the "list" you've put up: :rofl: Keep'em coming!


----------



## Air Fly

PauloCatarino said:


> For a guy who wasn't even born when Dr. J, Moses and Kareem were winning MVPs, you sure have a big mouth.
> And when Magic won back-to-back MVPs, you were what? 2?
> 
> About the "list" you've put up: :rofl: Keep'em coming!


it dont matter how old i was? but what matter is a handsome 18 year old guy, knows more basketball than you ever do.

If you dont see how jordan is the greatest ever, then seriously you're younger than what ur age is? what? 45?


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## PauloCatarino

Air Fly said:


> it dont matter how old i was? but what matter is a handsome 18 year old guy, knows more basketball than you ever do.
> 
> If you dont see how jordan is the greatest ever, then seriously you're younger than what ur age is? what? 45?


Sorry, Mr. without-Jordan-you-wouldn't-be-talking-basketball. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers...

I'll stop now... Your "without jordan kobe, lebron, vince wouldnt have exist" comment surely made a fool out of me... My bad.


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## 77AJ

PauloCatarino, you do realize that Magic Johnson has said several times that MJ was the greatest player ever and that Bill Russell was the greatest winner ?


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## Adol

Air Fly said:


> *without jordan you wouldnt be talking basketball
> without jordan kobe, lebron, vince wouldnt have exist
> without jordan you wouldnt be wearing Nike shoes *
> and the list goes on, someone please add to this list so this dude can shut his crap.


I don't think these kind of social influence and media accomplishments have much bearing on who the GOAT should be. We're talking about basketball players, period. It's not fair to use these in Jordan's favor against guys like Wilt. Jordan came along at the perfect moment when globalized media was beginning. Stern gave an interesting interview on it. 

Paul, I can respect your opinion on Magic an Wilt...But we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## Air Fly

Adol said:


> I don't think these kind of social influence and media accomplishments have much bearing on who the GOAT should be. We're talking about basketball players, period. It's not fair to use these in Jordan's favor against guys like Wilt. Jordan came along at the perfect moment when globalized media was beginning. Stern gave an interesting interview on it.
> 
> Paul, I can respect your opinion on Magic an Wilt...But we'll have to agree to disagree.



i know i know, but i just wanted to say how much of an impact jordan had/has on basketball period..and he is without a doubt the greatest player to ever play the game in my opinion and millions of others.


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## Air Fly

23AirJordan said:


> PauloCatarino, you do realize that Magic Johnson has said several times that MJ was the greatest player ever and that Bill Russell was the greatest winner ?


He obviously dosent, his hatred toward jordan have blinded his eyes and deafen his ears.


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## carrrnuttt

PauloCatarino said:


> I was mainly refering to the 80's.
> 
> But, by the way, how many times a year did Wilt had to face Russell and the might Celtics?


Well, in that case, your own argument kills your case.

In 1985, in the "harder" NBA, Rookie of the Year Michael Jordan, averaged 28.2/6.5/5.9, and led his team full of druggies, and unknowns, with "maybe" the exception Orlando Woolridge, as it's #1 option, to the playoffs.

He led his team in the SUPER-tough 80's (his ROOKIE year, remember?) to a 14-game better record than an Atlanta Hawks team, from the same Division, that featured names like:

Dominique Wilkins
Eddie Johnson
Doc Rivers
Kevin Willis


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## 77AJ

Air Fly said:


> He obviously dosent, his hatred toward jordan have blinded his eyes and deafen his ears.


I would agree with this.


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## PauloCatarino

23AirJordan said:


> PauloCatarino, you do realize that Magic Johnson has said several times that MJ was the greatest player ever and that Bill Russell was the greatest winner ?


What do you expect him to say? "Hey, i'm the greatest. i rock!"?



Adol said:


> Paul, I can respect your opinion on Magic an Wilt...But we'll have to agree to disagree.?


Sure. No problem. :greatjob: 



Air Fly said:


> He obviously dosent, his hatred toward jordan have blinded his eyes and deafen his ears..


Says you. Please explain wich of my arguments is skewed.




carrrnuttt said:


> Well, in that case, your own argument kills your case.
> 
> In 1985, in the "harder" NBA, Rookie of the Year Michael Jordan, averaged 28.2/6.5/5.9, and led his team full of druggies, and unknowns, with "maybe" the exception Orlando Woolridge, as it's #1 option, to the playoffs.
> 
> He led his team in the SUPER-tough 80's (his ROOKIE year, remember?) to a 14-game better record than an Atlanta Hawks team, from the same Division, that featured names like:
> 
> Dominique Wilkins
> Eddie Johnson
> Doc Rivers
> Kevin Willis


Now this is something i can work with.

I'll post my response a little later


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## Zalgirinis

Air Fly said:


> There is little argument that Michael Jordan is the best basketball player of his era, if not of all time. With Six Championship Rings, Five MVP Awards, and countless other awards, he is perhaps the most dominating player ever. *But, what makes him so good? * And how on earth did he get so good? and do you miss him?


Havent read this thread till this page (maybe it was mentioned), but that the answer is clear - the advertisment of Stern makes him so good. Stern's policy to make league more popular with one player idol succeeded. He chose the player (not meaning the player wasnt best), presented him as god and people followed it. End of question.


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## PauloCatarino

carrrnuttt said:


> Well, in that case, your own argument kills your case.
> 
> In 1985, in the "harder" NBA, Rookie of the Year Michael Jordan, averaged 28.2/6.5/5.9, and led his team full of druggies, and unknowns, with "maybe" the exception Orlando Woolridge, as it's #1 option, to the playoffs.
> 
> He led his team in the SUPER-tough 80's (his ROOKIE year, remember?) to a 14-game better record than an Atlanta Hawks team, from the same Division, that featured names like:
> 
> Dominique Wilkins
> Eddie Johnson
> Doc Rivers
> Kevin Willis


Now...
Obviously, Jordan wasn't your odinary rookie. He was the rightfull ROY and indeed had a great season.
The Bulls were a crappy team, all right, and it's a fact that Jordan was the main reason the team made such a leap forward.

But let's not get carried away, here.
Orlando Woolridge was a good second option, scoring 23ppg on .550FG%.
Also, the Bulls did make the playoffs, but with as a sub-.500 team. (#7 seeded)
I wouldn't count Jordan's second season (18 games), but in his third the Bulls again reached the playoffs, and with an even worse record (30-52), getting swept in the first round.
It wasn't till 87-88 (Jordan's third complete year in the league) that the Bulls got a winning percentage.

What i'm trying to say is that even Jordan, being the great player he was, had to take his share of lumps till he could lead his team to a contender position (wich was in the end of the 80's).

I think there's a direct link between the Bulls rising to the top of the East in the late 80's and the Celtics and Sixers struggles in the same period. The Pistons were already pass their peak when Jordan won his first ring.

And the way Jordan carried his team thorought the 80's is indeed a tribute to his greatness (wich i don't dispute). Still, the 80's were not Jordan's era.
Doc and Mo in the early 80's, then Bird and Magic all the way.


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## Adol

I agree with pauls post. But I don't think it's really fair to say Jordan didn't have to beat the great Celtics, sixers or lakers teams of the 80's. You nailed it on the head when you showed how those great teams dominated an era, and Jordan only came up once they were on the down slide. But you have to take into account that Jordan was still very young, growing and learning as a player during a lot of these guys (Bird and Magic for example) primes. It's just how it always goes. Great teams battle other great teams of their era, and great players battle other great players. It's the talented new comers who are always the ones looking in, wanting to get theirs...That was Jordan in the 80's. But a prime Jordan never went up against a prime Bird or Magic. And I'm not just talking about athletic prime here, but when they reached the very top of their game in all aspects. A more fair comparison would be a prime Jordan vs a prime Drexler, as I believe they were pretty close in age and years in the league. When we look at basketball now you have similiar situations. A prime Lebron will never have to face a prime Shaq. Shaq is alread declining and Lebron has a ways before he fills his full potential. That doesn't take away from either of them though. 

There will always the old dog defending his stomping grounds with the young pup on the ourskirts, pacing back and forth, waiting to take down the top dog and take his place. It's an endless cycle, and you can't really say it's a fair fight. I think what's more important is when you get all the dogs together of similiar age, let them fight, and then see who becomes the top dog out of them all. I would say the top dog of our current era right now is Duncan.

Is Jordan the greatest of all time? I think so. But a case can definitely be made for some of the other all time greats. But all we can really do is think up our dream matches like the 97 Bulls vs the 95 Rockets and debate what the outcome would have been


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## PauloCatarino

Adol said:


> I agree with pauls post. But I don't think it's really fair to say Jordan didn't have to beat the great Celtics, sixers or lakers teams of the 80's. You nailed it on the head when you showed how those great teams dominated an era, and Jordan only came up once they were on the down slide. But you have to take into account that Jordan was still very young, growing and learning as a player during a lot of these guys (Bird and Magic for example) primes. It's just how it always goes. Great teams battle other great teams of their era, and great players battle other great players. It's the talented new comers who are always the ones looking in, wanting to get theirs...That was Jordan in the 80's. But a prime Jordan never went up against a prime Bird or Magic. And I'm not just talking about athletic prime here, but when they reached the very top of their game in all aspects. A more fair comparison would be a prime Jordan vs a prime Drexler, as I believe they were pretty close in age and years in the league. When we look at basketball now you have similiar situations. A prime Lebron will never have to face a prime Shaq. Shaq is alread declining and Lebron has a ways before he fills his full potential. That doesn't take away from either of them though.
> 
> There will always the old dog defending his stomping grounds with the young pup on the ourskirts, pacing back and forth, waiting to take down the top dog and take his place. It's an endless cycle, and you can't really say it's a fair fight. I think what's more important is when you get all the dogs together of similiar age, let them fight, and then see who becomes the top dog out of them all. I would say the top dog of our current era right now is Duncan.
> 
> Is Jordan the greatest of all time? I think so. But a case can definitely be made for some of the other all time greats. But all we can really do is think up our dream matches like the 97 Bulls vs the 95 Rockets and debate what the outcome would have been


This is great post.

We get what we can, and no need to go into expeculation... 
Thinking "How would Wilt do playing today", "How would Jordan play against a zone", "How would Magic run a break when there is no break to be run", is useless.

The facts remain intact and can't be challenged, or else the G.O.A.T. talk will die. A prime Alonzo could very well beat Bill Russell if Bill was playing in the 90's... Jerry West would never score the way he did in the 90's... That's all pure expeculation...

We cannot compare Wilt to Jordan and say Ol' Baldy's 37ppg season was bigger than Wilt's 50ppg one. We just can't do it. That would be a perversion (sp?) of the G.O.A.T. talk.

a while ago a poster in this board (can't remember his name, my bad) once said that we can't talk about the greatest player ever. The game that was played in 1947 is NOT the game that's being played now. Rules have changed. Players have changed. Methods have changed (well, you now what i mean).
this poster delivered the notion that, instead of the GOAT talk, people should consider the greatest players form their respective era.
Something like Cousy in the 50's, Wilt in the 60's, Kareem in the 70's, Magic in the 80's, His Hairless in the 90's, and so on... and i must say i'm not violently opposed to that notion...


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## Jester

MJ, when asked if he thought he was the GOAT, said no, because he didn't get to play against the all-time greats (and perhaps players that were considered the GOAT before MJ arrived) that played before him. Whether or not he genuinely believes this response in his own private mind, it is a sensible one.

On a side note, MJ said the one player he would like to face one-on-one is Jerry West (he said this only a couple of years ago). "I'd love to determine who was the better guard."

When asked about perhaps the third greatest SG (Drexler), MJ said, "People drew a lot of comparisons between me and Clyde. But by the end of the series [1992 Finals], I hope people understood the difference."

When asked about the premier perimeter players of today (Kobe, LeBron, etc.), MJ said, "In my mind, I can destroy them. But my body isn't up to it."

So, if you want to go by what the legends themselves say, I think we can assume that MJ himself thinks he's at least a top-2 guard of all-time. :biggrin:


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## PauloCatarino

Jester said:


> MJ, when asked if he thought he was the GOAT, said no, because he didn't get to play against the all-time greats (and perhaps players that were considered the GOAT before MJ arrived) that played before him. Whether or not he genuinely believes this response in his own private mind, it is a sensible one.
> 
> On a side note, MJ said the one player he would like to face one-on-one is Jerry West (he said this only a couple of years ago). "I'd love to determine who was the better guard."
> 
> When asked about perhaps the third greatest SG (Drexler), MJ said, "People drew a lot of comparisons between me and Clyde. But by the end of the series [1992 Finals], I hope people understood the difference."
> 
> When asked about the premier perimeter players of today (Kobe, LeBron, etc.), MJ said, "In my mind, I can destroy them. But my body isn't up to it."
> 
> So, if you want to go by what the legends themselves say, I think we can assume that MJ himself thinks he's at least a top-2 guard of all-time. :biggrin:


Wow. thanx for the imput, Jester. :clap: 

I never knew Jordan had such a great regard for Jerry West. Props to him.


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## jalen5

Adol said:


> I agree with pauls post. But I don't think it's really fair to say Jordan didn't have to beat the great Celtics, sixers or lakers teams of the 80's. You nailed it on the head when you showed how those great teams dominated an era, and Jordan only came up once they were on the down slide. But you have to take into account that Jordan was still very young, growing and learning as a player during a lot of these guys (Bird and Magic for example) primes. It's just how it always goes. Great teams battle other great teams of their era, and great players battle other great players. It's the talented new comers who are always the ones looking in, wanting to get theirs...That was Jordan in the 80's. But a prime Jordan never went up against a prime Bird or Magic. And I'm not just talking about athletic prime here, but when they reached the very top of their game in all aspects. A more fair comparison would be a prime Jordan vs a prime Drexler, as I believe they were pretty close in age and years in the league. When we look at basketball now you have similiar situations. A prime Lebron will never have to face a prime Shaq. Shaq is alread declining and Lebron has a ways before he fills his full potential. That doesn't take away from either of them though.
> 
> There will always the old dog defending his stomping grounds with the young pup on the ourskirts, pacing back and forth, waiting to take down the top dog and take his place. It's an endless cycle, and you can't really say it's a fair fight. I think what's more important is when you get all the dogs together of similiar age, let them fight, and then see who becomes the top dog out of them all. I would say the top dog of our current era right now is Duncan.
> 
> Is Jordan the greatest of all time? I think so. But a case can definitely be made for some of the other all time greats. But all we can really do is think up our dream matches like the 97 Bulls vs the 95 Rockets and debate what the outcome would have been



This is the best and most accurate post of this thread. You really can never KNOW what the outcome would be of today's team and players vs. decade's past teams and players. We can speculate, but that wouldn't do much good and is pretty useless. Everybody has their opinion and that opinion most likely is correlated to which era you grew up in. I was born in 1985 so that makes me fall into the Jordan category. I will say this, though. I bet there were ALOT of Wilt, Russell, West, Kareem, Magic, Bird, etc. era people that had their minds changed on who the greatest of all time is after watching Michael Jordan. In the same manner, there's always a chance someone like LeBron James could change my mind from MJ to LeBron.


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## coachhomer

Adol said:


> I agree with pauls post. But I don't think it's really fair to say Jordan didn't have to beat the great Celtics, sixers or lakers teams of the 80's. You nailed it on the head when you showed how those great teams dominated an era, and Jordan only came up once they were on the down slide. But you have to take into account that Jordan was still very young, growing and learning as a player during a lot of these guys (Bird and Magic for example) primes. It's just how it always goes. Great teams battle other great teams of their era, and great players battle other great players. It's the talented new comers who are always the ones looking in, wanting to get theirs...That was Jordan in the 80's. But a prime Jordan never went up against a prime Bird or Magic. And I'm not just talking about athletic prime here, but when they reached the very top of their game in all aspects. A more fair comparison would be a prime Jordan vs a prime Drexler, as I believe they were pretty close in age and years in the league. When we look at basketball now you have similiar situations. A prime Lebron will never have to face a prime Shaq. Shaq is alread declining and Lebron has a ways before he fills his full potential. That doesn't take away from either of them though.
> 
> There will always the old dog defending his stomping grounds with the young pup on the ourskirts, pacing back and forth, waiting to take down the top dog and take his place. It's an endless cycle, and you can't really say it's a fair fight. I think what's more important is when you get all the dogs together of similiar age, let them fight, and then see who becomes the top dog out of them all. I would say the top dog of our current era right now is Duncan.
> 
> Is Jordan the greatest of all time? I think so. But a case can definitely be made for some of the other all time greats. But all we can really do is think up our dream matches like the 97 Bulls vs the 95 Rockets and debate what the outcome would have been


Great post.

C


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## Adol

Aw shucks! :biggrin:


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## 4BiddenKnight

jalen5 said:


> This is the best and most accurate post of this thread. You really can never KNOW what the outcome would be of today's team and players vs. decade's past teams and players. We can speculate, but that wouldn't do much good and is pretty useless. Everybody has their opinion and that opinion most likely is correlated to which era you grew up in. I was born in 1985 so that makes me fall into the Jordan category. I will say this, though. I bet there were ALOT of Wilt, Russell, West, Kareem, Magic, Bird, etc. era people that had their minds changed on who the greatest of all time is after watching Michael Jordan. In the same manner, there's always a chance someone like LeBron James could change my mind from MJ to LeBron.


May be possible that LeBron is the next person to carry the torch(but in my mind after i saw this tribute highlight mix of Jordan, I have to say MJ is the greatest. Couldn't believe the number of shots he blocked and his body control midair. I have to give props to MJ because I saw him steal, block, do fancy lay ups, dunk, crossover and pop & make the bucket, his shots, clutch...virtually everything). He's got all the right tools, if he has the support.

Wilt playing in his era is different from this era, so you can't compare that. Paulo you must, and I mean it, you MUST give at least some props to Jordan for what he has done on the basketball court, especially on who he went up against. Don't compare him with Russell or Wilt, they played in a less riggid era, where theres less teams, less attention, eventually less pressure to play.

And oh yeah, Stern picked the perfect player to market on his campaign (I think he thought of that just because of how Jordan played).

EDIT: I've never saw MJ play live, because I started watching in 1998. And that's why I talked about the highlight package.


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## PauloCatarino

4BiddenKnight said:


> Paulo you must, and I mean it, you MUST give at least some props to Jordan for what he has done on the basketball court, especially on who he went up against. Don't compare him with Russell or Wilt, they played in a less riggid era, where theres less teams, less attention, eventually less pressure to play.


Hey! Who says i don't?
I mean, i may be biased, but i'm not blind, you know? I saw almost all of His Hairless career (although his 2 last seasons i would like to forget), and i know exactly how good he was.
If i didn't find his achievments great i wouldn't include him in my All-Time Top 3... 

:yes:


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## Natey

i dont see lebron taking jordans place. Lebrons just the most overatted player in the NBA. He can jump and dunk like a mad man doesnt mean hes then next MJ he still needs to be a better passed and better at defense. i see wade being more like jordan than lebron.....IMO..........

~Natey~


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## remy23

Natey said:


> i dont see lebron taking jordans place. Lebrons just the most overatted player in the NBA. He can jump and dunk like a mad man doesnt mean hes then next MJ he still needs to be a better passed and better at defense. i see wade being more like jordan than lebron.....IMO..........
> 
> ~Natey~


If you think LeBron is the most overrated player in the league, I really would like to see you expand your thoughts on the matter. 

Anyways, James probably won't be MJ-like because their games are entirely different. I agree about improving defense but not about your passing comment. LeBron's passing is very good.


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## 4BiddenKnight

I said LeBron may carry the torch from MJ for possibly being the GOAT in this decade of 2000-2010. It may happen, it may not. But I never claimed James to be the next MJ, because he doesn't even play like him.


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## clien

james is more comparable to charles barkley than jordan imo


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## jalen5

clien said:


> james is more comparable to charles barkley than jordan imo



Are you serious??? I hope you were making a joke with that comment cuz if you were, it was very funny. But if you weren't, you need help. Anyway, LeBron is simply amazing for his age. For anyone to think he is overrated is ridiculous. He needs to continue to work on his shooting (which has improved alot already) and his defense. But he is without a doubt the best player at his age I have EVER seen. He already has been handed the torch. Now, will he do with it what Jordan did with it??? That remains to be seen.


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## clien

jalen5 said:


> Are you serious??? I hope you were making a joke with that comment cuz if you were, it was very funny. But if you weren't, you need help. Anyway, LeBron is simply amazing for his age. For anyone to think he is overrated is ridiculous. He needs to continue to work on his shooting (which has improved alot already) and his defense. But he is without a doubt the best player at his age I have EVER seen. He already has been handed the torch. Now, will he do with it what Jordan did with it??? That remains to be seen.


james is over-rated-yes hes the best at his age ever but that doesnt mean hes the best ever,, his shooting sucks his D aint very good,,and he plays nothing like jordan ever did,,u watch lebron film jordan film and barkley film...lebrons GAME is more comparable to bark not his baldness,,as far as comparing their torches idk ive never seen um im sure theyre both very nice b/c they both have pretty pimp shiz nike contracts;;but not the same style of game
--do u understand?? :eek8:


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## clien

4BiddenKnight said:


> I said LeBron may carry the torch from MJ for possibly being the GOAT in this decade of 2000-2010. It may happen, it may not. But *I never claimed James to be the next MJ, because he doesn't even play like him*.


^ :yes:


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## allan_373

Because of his brother Larry Jordan who is so competitive I remembered.Michael promised that his brother would not defeat him again during their childhood games so he honed his skills seriously.His father said that if Larry was taller than Michael, it was him not Michael would be in the NBA.


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