# Jerry West said Michael Jordan is the Best Defensive Player in the Game.



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

I agree with West. MJ dominated at both ends of the court. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1mFE_ekV7E&mode=related&search=


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Is?
JJerry West has gotten really senile in the last ten or fifteen years. Someone should tell him the closest Jordan is getting to playing tough defense these days is when he's called into court by yet another woman, not his wife, who he slept with.

I'm suprised his wife hasn't divorced him for everything he owns right now.

Oh. Um. But anyways. Jordan wasn't even the best defender on the Chicago Bulls. Let alone of all-time. Thanks.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Is?
> JJerry West has gotten really senile in the last ten or fifteen years. Someone should tell him the closest Jordan is getting to playing tough defense these days is when he's called into court by yet another woman, not his wife, who he slept with.
> 
> I'm suprised his wife hasn't divorced him for everything he owns right now.
> ...


Your hate for Jordan is unreal. Please, watch some of Jordan games and look at his defensive side of the game and the little things he does...Then maybe, you'd start to appreciate him more. Jordan is better than any current nba player you try to hype. He is the greatest of all-time. If there was a first team defense of all-time, he would make the list.


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## Bon]{eRz (Feb 23, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Is?
> JJerry West has gotten really senile in the last ten or fifteen years. Someone should tell him the closest Jordan is getting to playing tough defense these days is when he's called into court by yet another woman, not his wife, who he slept with.
> 
> I'm suprised his wife hasn't divorced him for everything he owns right now.
> ...


Its an old video.. Jordan was probably still playing at the time of the interview.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Is?
> JJerry West has gotten really senile in the last ten or fifteen years. Someone should tell him the closest Jordan is getting to playing tough defense these days is when he's called into court by yet another woman, not his wife, who he slept with.
> 
> I'm suprised his wife hasn't divorced him for everything he owns right now.
> ...


That was very uncalled for, what you said about Jordan being called into court. He is the best 1 on 1 defender ever, case closed. BTW is that you in your picture? haha


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

You make it sound like West's the only one who ever said that. MJ by most players&coaches of his era is considered the best defensive non-center ever. To me that's pretty obvious when you watch him play. He is the best 1-on-1 defender ever, the best shot blocker too and help side D second only to his teammate .


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

The video is from 1993. But I think I would put Hakeem/Russel at #1
for all-time greatest defender.


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## dwadenumba1 (Aug 8, 2006)

The best 1 on 1 defensive players is Jordan. The best post defender is Hakeem.


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## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Is?
> JJerry West has gotten really senile in the last ten or fifteen years. Someone should tell him the closest Jordan is getting to playing tough defense these days is when he's called into court by yet another woman, not his wife, who he slept with.
> 
> I'm suprised his wife hasn't divorced him for everything he owns right now.
> ...


 :clown:


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

A post/help defender, typically a center contributes more to the defensive side of the ball than a perimeter 1-on-1 defender. Bill Russell & Dream were the best defenders of all time. MJ should of won more than 1 DPOY awards if he was truely the best defender ever. I don't even think MJ was the best defender on his own team but he was an all-time elite defender nonetheless. Pip always had the toughest defensive assignments b/c Jordan had to carry so much offensively for his team.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Sidney Moncrief, in my opinion, was a better defender than Michael Jordan.


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## baller213 (Jun 19, 2006)

When you're known so much for your offense, people tend to overlook your defense. Guys like bowen and wallace are always thought of the best defenders cause that pretty much all they can do. Guys like, kobe, lebron, wade, carmelo, tmac... they all have the physical abilities (quickness, length, strength) to be good defenders. If they just try (kobe and wade do)... they can easily be lock down defenders.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Pippen was a better defender than Jordan. C'mon now.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

baller213 said:


> When you're known so much for your offense, people tend to overlook your defense. Guys like bowen and wallace are always thought of the best defenders cause that pretty much all they can do. Guys like, kobe, lebron, wade, carmelo, tmac... they all have the physical abilities (quickness, length, strength) to be good defenders. If they just try (kobe and wade do)... they can easily be lock down defenders.


guys like jeffries, deng, gerald wallace have all the physical abilities (quickness, length, strength) to be good offensive weapons. If they just try they can be the league's leading scorers. just becayse you have all the tools, doesn't mean you can build the house if you "just try" buddy. you actually have to know what you are doing.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

bball2223 said:


> That was very uncalled for, what you said about Jordan being called into court.


:boohoo:


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

tough to say... mostly because its hard to compare a guy like Bill Russell or Hakeem to a wing defender.

The only person I saw D-up like Jordan was Scottie Pippen... which is why they won 6 championships together (and neither won without the other... though Pippen came close).

Pretty subjective... Alvin Robertson, Sidney Moncrief, Gary Payton, Dennis Rodman etc... were all great in their primes... who knows.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Interesting comments through out the thread. 

Most people believe Jerry West to be one of the best evaluators of basketball talent. Also Jerry West had an amazing hall of fame career, and played with, and against many of the greatest offensive/defensive players of all time. So for him to make those comments about Jordan, are from a man that's intelligent, a hall of famer, and somebody still making waves in todays game as the GM for Memphis, and as the GM for the Dynasty Lakers.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Is?
> JJerry West has gotten really senile in the last ten or fifteen years. Someone should tell him the closest Jordan is getting to playing tough defense these days is when he's called into court by yet another woman, not his wife, who he slept with.
> 
> I'm suprised his wife hasn't divorced him for everything he owns right now.
> ...


Hey futuristxen LeBron James > Michael Jordan at defense and offense right ?


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## theflyballa (Aug 8, 2006)

Kobe Bryant is an underrated defender. He's a better defender than Jordan. When all is said and done, Kobe Bryant will be the greatest perimeter defender in the history of basketball.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

theflyballa said:


> Kobe Bryant is an underrated defender. He's a better defender than Jordan. When all is said and done, Kobe Bryant will be the greatest perimeter defender in the history of basketball.


Well Kobe is an elite defender no doubt, but never quite on the level to be in serious contention to win the Defensive Player of The Year Award.


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## theflyballa (Aug 8, 2006)

23AJ said:


> Well Kobe is an elite defender no doubt, but never quite on the level to be in serious contention to win the Defensive Player of The Year Award.


Man, nowadays, all these awards are all about who gets the most hype. Kobe has been on multiple All-Defense teams including last season. I think Kobe will win at least 1 or 2 DPOYs before he retires.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

theflyballa said:


> Man, nowadays, all these awards are all about who gets the most hype. Kobe has been on multiple All-Defense teams including last season. I think Kobe will win at least 1 or 2 DPOYs before he retires.


Having multiple 1st team defensive awards doesn't equate into DPOTYA. Just ask guy's like Bruce Bowen and Andrei Kirilenko who are even better defenders then Kobe Bryant. That's not slight on Kobe either, but truth. Just watch some games of those other guys I brought up. Also Gerald Wallace is something else on defense. However all that said Michael Jordan truly dominated for a guard on defense, and owns several insane stat marks on defense such as blocked shots average for a guard. Check into all that.


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## theflyballa (Aug 8, 2006)

23AJ said:


> Having multiple 1st team defensive awards doesn't equate into DPOTYA. Just ask guy's like Bruce Bowen and Andrei Kirilenko who are even better defenders then Kobe Bryant. That's not slight on Kobe either, but truth. Just watch some games of those other guys I brought up. Also Gerald Wallace is something else on defense. However all that said Michael Jordan truly dominated for a guard on defense, and owns several insane stat marks on defense such as blocked shots average for a guard. Check into all that.


Michael Jordan didn't play defense the entire game. Eddie Johnson said he loved it when Jordan guarded him at the beginning of games because Jordan just played passing lanes or helped on other players but never really took his man seriously till the fourth quarter. I'm not saying multiple Defensive Team selections is as good as a DOPY award, but it means that Kobe isn't a slouch on defense. He's the best perimeter defender in the league right now, but just doesn't get noticed because of his offensive brilliance.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

All you Jordan freaks need to watch the Chicago Bulls TEAM that Jordan played on. I know it's really hard to pay attention to anyone else on the floor, but there's this weird faced 6-7 guy, the back of his jersey will say "Pippen". You might note that he will take all the tough defensive jobs and that he was a better defender than Jordan.

Which is why I said...Jordan wasn't even the best defender on his own team.

Hell in the second 3 peat, he wasn't even the second best defender because Rodman played there.

Both Dennis Rodman and Scottie Pippen where better one on one defenders than Jordan.

Right now Ron Artest is a better defender than Jordan was.

And I'm not even talking about centers like Hakeem and Russell who were obviously better defensively than Jordan. Tim Duncan is in that group as well.

In no order:
Duncan
Russell
Hakeem
Rodman
Pippen
David Robinson
Artest
Bruce Bowen
Gary Payton
Mutombo

That's not the top ten, but that's ten better than Jordan.

Jordan's defense was underrated to be sure, but it wasn't the best ever.


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

:clown:


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

baller213 said:


> When you're known so much for your offense, people tend to overlook your defense. Guys like bowen and wallace are always thought of the best defenders cause that pretty much all they can do. Guys like, kobe, lebron, wade, carmelo, tmac... they all have the physical abilities (quickness, length, strength) to be good defenders. If they just try (kobe and wade do)... they can easily be lock down defenders.


lol kobe and wade try to be lock down defenders? the only times I see Kobe or Wade try to lock someone down are when they are in big matchups, because sometimes they hardly even look like they give a rats ***.



theflyballa said:


> Michael Jordan didn't play defense the entire game. Eddie Johnson said he loved it when Jordan guarded him at the beginning of games because Jordan just played passing lanes or helped on other players but never really took his man seriously till the fourth quarter. I'm not saying multiple Defensive Team selections is as good as a DOPY award, but it means that Kobe isn't a slouch on defense. He's the best perimeter defender in the league right now, but just doesn't get noticed because of his offensive brilliance.


lol kobe does that too, and the All defense teams the last few years have been a joke. Kobe is a good defender, but not good enough to warrant first team. Hell, Dwyane Wade got first team two seasons ago and outside of block shots and gamble, he doesn't do much in terms of shutting players down. Kobe can lock down players when he tries, but when your carelessness lets Steve Blake drop big numbers on you, you can hardly be called the best perimeter defender in the league.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

theflyballa said:


> Michael Jordan didn't play defense the entire game. Eddie Johnson said he loved it when Jordan guarded him at the beginning of games because Jordan just played passing lanes or helped on other players but never really took his man seriously till the fourth quarter. I'm not saying multiple Defensive Team selections is as good as a DOPY award, but it means that Kobe isn't a slouch on defense. He's the best perimeter defender in the league right now, but just doesn't get noticed because of his offensive brilliance.


When and where did eddie Johnson say that ?


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> All you Jordan freaks need to watch the Chicago Bulls TEAM that Jordan played on. I know it's really hard to pay attention to anyone else on the floor, but there's this weird faced 6-7 guy, the back of his jersey will say "Pippen". You might note that he will take all the tough defensive jobs and that he was a better defender than Jordan.
> 
> Which is why I said...Jordan wasn't even the best defender on his own team.
> 
> ...


Wow, your memory is very distorted. Maybe you should be the one to go back, and see how well Pippen and Rodman performend in the second three peat. It was Jordan that came up big for Chicago against the Jazz, and Sonics while Pippen and Rodman in particular played very poorly against the Sonics, and in certain games against the Jazz.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

23AJ said:


> When and where did eddie Johnson say that ?


Who cares? It's Eddie Johnson. He thinks he's the best player in NBA history. The man is completely mental. I don't care if he's supporting my side or not. Eddie Johnson is a nutcase.


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

Drewbs said:


> lol kobe and wade try to be lock down defenders? the only times I see Kobe or Wade try to lock someone down are when they are in big matchups, because sometimes they hardly even look like they give a rats ***.


 :cheers:


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Wow, your memory is very distorted. Maybe you should be the one to go back, and see how well Pippen and Rodman performend in the second three peat. It was Jordan that came up big for Chicago against the Jazz, and Sonics while Pippen and Rodman in particular played very poorly against the Sonics, and in certain games against the Jazz.


Unfortunately defense isn't a one play type of thing. Let alone a one game type of thing. It's every game. I'm not saying Jordan is a bad defender. In fact I said his defense was underrated...though it really wasn't...people used to say ad nauseum back then that Jordan's defense was underrated, so if everyone is saying something is underrated, it's not really underrated. Jordan for much of his career relied on strips, and blocks, moreso than staying in front of his man for the entire game. He was a big play defender. Kobe plays defense the same way right now. So does Larry Hughes. But guys like Artest and Bruce Bowen sit down and play defense for an entire game. They contest every shot. They don't give up anything easy by gambling unneccessarily. That's why they are better defenders. Pippen was somewhere in the middle of that. He played consistent great defense, but he still got the steals and blocks. He was the guy Phil Jackson put on the other team's best offensive player time and time again.


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## EnricoPalazzo (Jul 2, 2006)

> Pippen was a better defender than Jordan. C'mon now.


A common misconception. Pippen's defense seems to get more overrated as time passes. He was great, no doubt, but Jordan was every bit as good. Probably better, but he'll never get the recogintion for it because of his superhuman offensive production. Pippen was "known" for defense and therefore still considered by many to be the superior defensive player.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Unfortunately defense isn't a one play type of thing. Let alone a one game type of thing. It's every game. I'm not saying Jordan is a bad defender. In fact I said his defense was underrated...though it really wasn't...people used to say ad nauseum back then that Jordan's defense was underrated, so if everyone is saying something is underrated, it's not really underrated. Jordan for much of his career relied on strips, and blocks, moreso than staying in front of his man for the entire game. He was a big play defender. Kobe plays defense the same way right now. So does Larry Hughes. But guys like Artest and Bruce Bowen sit down and play defense for an entire game. They contest every shot. They don't give up anything easy by gambling unneccessarily. That's why they are better defenders. Pippen was somewhere in the middle of that. He played consistent great defense, but he still got the steals and blocks. He was the guy Phil Jackson put on the other team's best offensive player time and time again.


I'm sorry but I completely disagree. Jordan was a great 1 on 1 defender. Go back to the season Jordan won his DPOTYA. He was locking guys like Zeke (Isiah Thomas UP One on One) Also you talk about his weak side defense as it was just good. It was amazing, Jordan aveaged 1.60 BPG and 3.16 SPG, in 87-88. While dropping in 35.0 PPG 6 dimes, and 5 rebounds. Sorry Kobe never even came close to that. And Jordan did that many seasons in a row.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

Pippen was damn good, but I'm not certain he was better than Jordan at defense. They had their roles, MJ shoulders the offensive burden, and Pippen the defense. Before Pippen was an elite defender, Jordan won a DPOY, so who's to say Pippen is better? Those were their roles, but there's no doubt in my mind if MJ had to be the team's #1 defender, he would succeed just like Pip did, if not better.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> In no order:
> Duncan
> Russell
> Hakeem
> ...


Pippen is the only perimeter defender since 1990 who was better than Jordan. Payton was there with man defense, but Jordan's team defense was better. Artest and Bowen are a level below.

And Pippen didn't routinely take the opposition's best scorer. Just didn't happen. It depended on the matchup. 

But I do think Jordan's defense was slightly overrated at times. He shouldn't have won DPOY when he did. And he was never better than the best interior defenders.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

23AJ said:


> Interesting comments through out the thread.
> 
> Most people believe Jerry West to be one of the best evaluators of basketball talent. Also Jerry West had an amazing hall of fame career, and played with, and against many of the greatest offensive/defensive players of all time. So for him to make those comments about Jordan, are from a man that's intelligent, a hall of famer, and somebody still making waves in todays game as the GM for Memphis, and as the GM for the Dynasty Lakers.


Some guys on this board just think they know more than the guys that actually played with all those great players. They act like they know so much about baskeball. I'll take Jerry West opinion over anyone here without a second thought.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Pippen was NEVER considered a better defender than MJ during Chicago's 1st 3peat. He wasn't. MJ also took the opposition's best perimeter player majority of the time and that didn't change until he retired('93). People who're saying Pippen always took the best player don't know what they are talking about.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> Some guys on this board just think they know more than the guys that actually played with all those great players. They act like they know so much about baskeball. I'll take Jerry West opinion over anyone here without a second thought.


This is very true, and with West it's not just that he played with, and against the greats. It's also that he's such a good evaluator of basketball talent. As he's shown through out his career behind the scenes in the NBA. An opinion by a basketball mind like Jerry West should hold high value in the minds of basketball fans.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

He's up there. Some would choose him for sure. Some wouldn't.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> I'll take Jerry West opinion over anyone here without a second thought.


Troy Bell thanks you for your support.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Premier said:


> Troy Bell thanks you for your support.


Troy Bell had a nice career in college. More importantly there will always be exceptions to the rule. I think the majority of West's decisions/opinions are great though. Not to mention he himself is considered one of the best to ever play the game. But yeah let's all just think Troy Bell, like you do regarding Jerry West.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Troy Bell had a nice career in college. More importantly there will always be exceptions to the rule. I think the majority of West's decisions/opinions are great though. Not to mention he himself is considered one of the best to ever play the game. But yeah let's all just think Troy Bell, like you do regarding Jerry West.


I don't see how Jerry West's opinion is any more significant than the opinion of any knowledgable basketball fan, who has not played professionally. Allegedly, some HoFers believe that '80s defense was far better than current defense. They must be right. They're in the HoF.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Premier said:


> I don't see how Jerry West's opinion is any more significant than the opinion of any knowledgable basketball fan, who has not played professionally.


Yeah, well if you can't see the value in it, I suppose it's better left that way for you.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Yeah, well if you can't see the value in it, I suppose it's better left that way for you.


"Paul Pierce sucks" would have been a much better reply.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

troy bell? dont remember this guy, but do you really expect jerry to make 100% perfect decisions? 

that would be like saying "michael jordan is not the best player ever because he didn't shoot 100% from the field"


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Premier said:


> "Paul Pierce sucks" would have been a much better reply.


Sure keep telling yourself that. 

IMO it's dumb not take what people say that have true experience in their fields. Over somebody that hasn't had the experience, and ability to evaluate and play against the best in the world at what they do.

In esscence following suit with your comment of, 

_"I don't see how Jerry West's opinion is any more significant than the opinion of any knowledgable basketball fan"_

Would be like someone saying I don't see how Albert Einstein's opinions are any more significant than the opinion of any knowledgable fan of science.

edit -


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Sure keep telling yourself that.
> 
> IMO it's dumb not take what people say that have true experience in their fields. Opposed to somebody that's only studied the game by way of books, television, and stats to forumate their opinions.
> 
> ...


I'll respond to bad logic with even more bad logic.

Should I dismiss the thoughts of a Civil War expert because he/she did not participate in the war?


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Premier said:


> I'll respond to bad logic with even more bad logic.
> 
> Should I dismiss the thoughts of a Civil War expert because he/she did not participate in the war?


Remember the trail of bad logic started with you. So fire away smart guy/girl.

Also this will be my last post arguing with you, but please feel free to PM me regarding your beliefs on Jerry West. If not let's keep this thread moving along.


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## lw32 (May 24, 2003)

23AJ said:


> This is very true, and with West it's not just that he played with, and against the greats. It's also that he's such a good evaluator of basketball talent. As he's shown through out his career behind the scenes in the NBA.


Jerry West and his legacy as the best talent evaluator is exaggerated. He receives far too much credit. He's a great GM, but people make him out to be head and shoulders above everyone else. He's simply not, he makes bad picks too.

Here's a list of all the transactions and picks he's made in Memphis. Remember half of those names? So far he's had 1 decent pick in the last 4 years. Sure, he's made some good picks over his time, especially with the Lakers, however he's not the insane talent evaluator everyone makes him out to be. People remember the great picks and trades, and tend to forget about the bad ones.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Remember the trail of bad logic started with you. So fire away smart guy/girl.
> 
> Also this will be my last post arguing with you, but please feel free to PM me regarding your beliefs on Jerry West. If not let's keep this thread moving along.


You're the one that is using appeal to authority.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Lachlanwood32 said:


> Jerry West and his legacy as the best talent evaluator is exaggerated. He receives far too much credit. He's a great GM, but people make him out to be head and shoulders above everyone else. He's simply not, he makes bad picks too.
> 
> Here's a list of all the transactions and picks he's made in Memphis. Remember half of those names? So far he's had 1 decent pick in the last 4 years. Sure, he's made some good picks over his time, especially with the Lakers, however he's not the insane talent evaluator everyone makes him out to be. People remember the great picks and trades, and tend to forget about the bad ones.


Nobody said he was the best, just damn good at it. Plus add that to his own experience as an NBA all star that played against/with the best players in the game. The man's got a lot of experience/knowledge. A great combination when it comes to sharing your opinions on current/past NBA players, coaches, and organizations. I don't really see what's so hard in seeing the value in that of Jerry West.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

theflyballa said:


> Michael Jordan didn't play defense the entire game. Eddie Johnson said he loved it when Jordan guarded him at the beginning of games because Jordan just played passing lanes or helped on other players but never really took his man seriously till the fourth quarter. I'm not saying multiple Defensive Team selections is as good as a DOPY award, but it means that Kobe isn't a slouch on defense. *He's the best perimeter defender in the league right now*, but just doesn't get noticed because of his offensive brilliance.


Bruce Bowen & Ron Artest have something to say about that.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

I think as a whole, people take former players opinions far too seriously. Especially the well known ones like a Jerry West.

I would no doubt put more credence in the opinion of West versus, say, Sloth on basketball issues. But by no means do I think his opinion is the end all - be all. 

In the end I do not think former players, even at the caliber of West, are necessarily better evaluators of talent or ability when not discussing between players that they actually played against. How could Bill Russel accurately compare Wilt to Shaq without having played against Shaq? 

My whole point is ... there are a lot of former players and extremely smart people in charge of NBA teams and they consistently make stupid draft choices and stupid free agent signings.


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## lw32 (May 24, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Sure keep telling yourself that.
> 
> IMO it's dumb not take what people say that have true experience in their fields. Over somebody that hasn't had the experience, and ability to evaluate and play against the best in the world at what they do.


You can add more weight to Jerry's opinion, however it doesn't mean it's correct. We're talking about opinions, not fact. Your example of Einstein is weak because there is analytical evidence that he's correct. There is only opinionated evidence that West is correct.

Gregg Popovich never played, R.C. Buford never played, Red Auerbach never played. Isiah Thomas played. What's your point? My list could go on and on, as could yours. The argument that playing makes you more knowledgeable is questionable. While it helps getting a job, it doesn't mean they're any better at it. These ex-players have easier avenues to become coaches, GM's, scouts, etc.. The one's that make it the hard way have to have great basketball minds, there's no easy way in.

Evaluating the best players in the world can happen without playing against them I might add. You're also underestimating a lot of posters who do/have played competitive basketball.


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## lw32 (May 24, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Nobody said he was the best, just damn good at it. Plus add that to his own experience as an NBA all star that played against/with the best players in the game. The man's got a lot of experience/knowledge. A great combination when it comes to sharing your opinions on current/past NBA players, coaches, and organizations. I don't really see what's so hard in seeing the value in that of Jerry West.


Did you look at that list I posted of Jerrys tenure with Memphis? He has value, yes, he's good, yes, but he's also overrated.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Lachlanwood32 said:


> You can add more weight to Jerry's opinion, however it doesn't mean it's correct. We're talking about opinions, not fact. Your example of Einstein is weak because there is analytical evidence that he's correct. There is only opinionated evidence that West is correct.
> 
> Gregg Popovich never played, R.C. Buford never played, Red Auerbach never played. Isiah Thomas played. What's your point? My list could go on and on, as could yours. The argument that playing makes you more knowledgeable is questionable. While it helps getting a job, it doesn't mean they're any better at it. These ex-players have easier avenues to become coaches, GM's, scouts, etc.. The one's that make it the hard way have to have great basketball minds, there's no easy way in.
> 
> Evaluating the best players in the world can happen without playing against them I might add. You're also underestimating a lot of posters who do/have played competitive basketball.


I understand your beliefs very well. However I disagree with them. Experience is the best teacher IMO.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

afobisme said:


> troy bell? dont remember this guy, but do you really expect jerry to make 100% perfect decisions?
> 
> that would be like saying "michael jordan is not the best player ever because he didn't shoot 100% from the field"


That's a different way of looking at it, but it's a good point.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Lachlanwood32 said:


> Did you look at that list I posted of Jerrys tenure with Memphis? He has value, yes, he's good, yes, but he's also overrated.


How is he overrated, the guy did great things on the court as a player, and great things off the court as a GM. I guess you believe his least favorable moves are far more impactful then that of what his achievements are ?


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

Great thread. I remember reading about Jerry West's interviews regarding Michael Jordan in a basketball magazine from the same time period, but I'd never seen the videos.

It certainly is high praise that Jerry heaps upon MJ, and he may very well be one of the most qualified people in the world to evaluate such a talent. But that doesn't mean we have to take everything he says to be true. One can always take what is given and analyze it.

West says "He's the best defensive player in the league, in my opinion. He's the best competitor in the league, in my opinion. He's _by far_ the best offensive player, in my opinion. He's the best clutch player in the game. He's got the whole package. And his skill level, on top of that enormous physical package, really sets him apart from the other players."

So Jerry qualifies everything he says with "in my opinion". Everyone is entitled to an opinion!

At the time, Bird and Magic were done, so saying that Jordan was the best competitor in the game and the most clutch player was probably a given to most. His offense being on a level above anyone else's seems accurate as well. 

As for the defense, let's not reduce this to an argument of "great interior defender vs. great perimeter defender". In order to surmise that Jordan was the best defender in the league, we'd have to compare him to other perimeter defenders first. At the time, Payton was only just developing into a great defender, Moncrief was _retired_ (I really hope whoever threw that name into the discussion really followed Moncrief's career and isn't just stirring the pot), and Pippen was probably the only prime candidate.

In retrospect, Scottie is regarded by most as a better defender overall than Michael. But in 1993, prior to his first retirement, Jordan was a much more active player on both ends of the floor than he was during the second three-peat. And Pippen had not yet matured completely into the brilliant defensive player we would eventually know him as (MJ's departure from the game did a lot for Pip's confidence).

Michael's defensive style was very aggressive. Eddie Johnson, while tooting his own horn, did bring up some good points: Michael cheated off his man like crazy so that he could trap and double in the post, ambush passing lanes, sneak up on unaware ball-handlers, and fly in for amazing blocks that make even D-Wade highlights pale in comparison (only VC seems to have the same ability to swipe jump shots from behind without fouling). He did all this and _usually_ recovered to his man from seemingly anywhere on the court.

When he did focus on man-to-man defense, Michael was much like a longer GP. He would often take the tough assignments on fleet-footed points (Isiah, KJ) since the Bulls usually featured lead-footed "point guards" like Paxson, Hodges, etc. Michael could also take on opposing 2's and 3's (while Scottie preferred the 2-4 positions).

Given the nature of his achievements on the offensive end of the floor, Michael's ability to lock down his man or play amazing roaming defense was simply an incredible display of sheer energy and competitiveness. Even though Scottie Pippen later blossomed into a brilliant defensive player (and a rare leader on that end of the floor), I don't know if Pip ever had to match the sheer energy output or level of responsibility that MJ in his prime maintained for six or seven straight seasons. 

This is at the heart of why Jerry West was willing to praise Michael so highly; the same West who matched up against arguably the most complete player of the 60's in Oscar Robertson (ironically one of the few who could guard West). 

Taken with the multiple testimonials to his greatness from greats such as Elgin Baylor, Connie Hawkins, Julius Erving, and Magic Johnson in the same video - made before all the nauseating hype that accompanied his second three-peat - and it's a very powerful statement of the extent to which Michael had "conquered the game", as the video says. 

It's rare to receive such high praise from the greatest players from multiple generations past - most of whom usually go on about how the new era is weaker and their glory days were better. Relying solely on the opinion of authorities is indeed a fallacy of reasoning, but such opinions, when coupled with one's own reasoned analysis, do form compelling evidence.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

Jordan is as good as Pippen on the defensive end..

You guys saying Pippen had the toughest job on the defensive end... think carefully. Because I've had this discussion before with a lot of basketball minded people... and from a coaching point of view and best interest of the team... It makes sense to put your best player against the other team's best player especially if they are playing similar positions... But if you have the LUXURY of having a player like Pippen being your second best player, who happens to be as capable and versatile as Jordan... You do the right thing and you put Pippen on the other team's best player, assuming that player is playing on the perimeter. Pippen is versatile that way, whilst Jordan can free afford to free roam and not risk fouls, since he is the Bull's best offensive option.

I'm sure, if Pippen wasn't with Jordan, the coach would make Jordan guard the other player. Because Jordan has the best hand and have the reflexes and smarts to guard anyone barring any seven footer posting him up... funny, since back in the days Jordan was a tremendous swatter/help defender when it comes to Post players...

I love Pippen, but Jordan is as capable as he is and has more perks and can come up with something more special on the defensive end when the team needs it... But since Jordan is already the team's best offensive player, gotta give props to Pippen... because he is probably second or tied with Jordan as the league's best perimeter defenders.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

I think Pippen was the better defender partly because Jordan took too many risks. Not only was he sometimes a little overenthusiastic with his help defense, but also gambled a fair amount on his own man. Pippen could cover his man just about as well, and he was the better team defender. It was rarer to see him lose position in trying to force a turnover. To the casual eye Jordan looked like he was playing better defense, because he was so active and flashy. But Pippen was safer, and, ultimately, the superior option.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

Good points, Hakeem. But Jordan's defense was indicative of the times (late 80's, early 90's) and it was a role he had been utilized in dating back to his Carolina days. Collins encouraged Jordan to play this style of defense. I would argue that Pippen's prime in defense coincided with a shift in the way defense was played throughout the 90's. So ranking the one ahead of the other based on style is probably misleading in this respect.

I think leading up to the 93 season, Jordan could be reasonably argued as the "better" defender. It's in evaluating their overall defense in retrospect that Pippen's edge over Jordan becomes more relevant. Namely, that Pippen was an exceptional defensive leader or on-court coordinator, which in addition to his already impressive defensive abilities, sets him apart from Jordan in my mind.


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## Adol (Nov 25, 2004)

JPSeraph said:


> Great thread. I remember reading about Jerry West's interviews regarding Michael Jordan in a basketball magazine from the same time period, but I'd never seen the videos.
> 
> It certainly is high praise that Jerry heaps upon MJ, and he may very well be one of the most qualified people in the world to evaluate such a talent. But that doesn't mean we have to take everything he says to be true. One can always take what is given and analyze it.
> 
> ...



Great post!


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## lw32 (May 24, 2003)

23AJ said:


> How is he overrated, the guy did great things on the court as a player, and great things off the court as a GM. I guess you believe his least favorable moves are far more impactful then that of what his achievements are ?


I'm strictly talking about Jerry West the GM. Everybody mentions West as a fantastic GM, but fail to mention the people surrounding him. Sure, he's the public figure, but most of his success is down to others doing the dirty work. Wonder why Jerry hasn't had much success in Memphis? He's done nothing great in Memphis and been there 5 years (it's too early to judge Gay). When does one stop living off his legacy and face the music? He was great in L.A., but again, that had a lot to do with the braintrust management team surrounding the Lakers.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

Lachlanwood32 said:


> I'm strictly talking about Jerry West the GM. Everybody mentions West as a fantastic GM, but fail to mention the people surrounding him. Sure, he's the public figure, but most of his success is down to others doing the dirty work. Wonder why Jerry hasn't had much success in Memphis? He's done nothing great in Memphis and been there 5 years (it's too early to judge Gay). When does one stop living off his legacy and face the music? He was great in L.A., but again, that had a lot to do with the braintrust management team surrounding the Lakers.


He didn't _always_ pick winners in Los Angeles, either. I'm interested to see how things work out with Gay; it could be the best pick West has made since Kobe.


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

Lots of good posts from 23AJ, making this thread really interesting. :clap:


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

23AJ said:


> I agree with West. MJ dominated at both ends of the court.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1mFE_ekV7E&mode=related&search=


Jerry West just made a fool out of himself.

A damned fool.


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Jerry West just made a fool out of himself.
> 
> A damned fool.


Fight the good fight Paulo.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Diophantos said:


> Fight the good fight Paulo.


These kind of things really piss me of. You know the kind: Michael Jordan was the greatest _______ (fill in the blank) to ever play the game.

Jordan was the THIRD best defender of the MJ-Pippen-Rodamn Bulls.
Jordan, IIRC, won ONE DPOY award. Doesn't Mutombo and/or Wallace have 4?
Did Jerry West forgot about a guy named Russell?
Did Jerry forgot a guy named Hakeem once played in the NBA?
Did Jerry forgot about a guy named Cooper who once played for him?

(And so on, and so on...)


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## theflyballa (Aug 8, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> These kind of things really piss me of. You know the kind: Michael Jordan was the greatest _______ (fill in the blank) to ever play the game.
> 
> Jordan was the THIRD best defender of the MJ-Pippen-Rodamn Bulls.
> Jordan, IIRC, won ONE DPOY award. Doesn't Mutombo and/or Wallace have 4?
> ...


Jordan isn't the greatest anything. Kobe is the best.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

JPSeraph said:


> He didn't _always_ pick winners in Los Angeles, either. I'm interested to see how things work out with Gay; it could be the best pick West has made since Kobe.


He didn't pick Kobe, he got Kobe in a trade from Charlotte who originally picked him, or am I mistaking him for someone else?


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> These kind of things really piss me of. You know the kind: Michael Jordan was the greatest _______ (fill in the blank) to ever play the game.
> 
> Jordan was the THIRD best defender of the MJ-Pippen-Rodamn Bulls.
> Jordan, IIRC, won ONE DPOY award. Doesn't Mutombo and/or Wallace have 4?
> ...


Yep, there's lots of blind MJ-worship out there. And lots of blind MJ bashing.

The interviews were around 92 or 93, hence the MJ-Pip-Rodman Bulls are irrelevant.
DPOY's are not necessarily the best measure of who is the greatest defender.
Russell was not in the league at the time of the interview (West said "best in the league").
Hakeem would be a good choice for best defender, but perhaps West wasn't trying to imply that a great perimeter defender is more valuable than a great interior defender.
Coop was retired.



> He didn't pick Kobe, he got Kobe in a trade from Charlotte who originally picked him, or am I mistaking him for someone else?


Yep, Charlotte picked Kobe and West pursued Bryant. Much as Krause gets credit for pursuing Pippen even though Seattle actually made the selection.


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## KnowBaller (Aug 9, 2006)

Lachlanwood32 said:


> You can add more weight to Jerry's opinion, however it doesn't mean it's correct. We're talking about opinions, not fact. Your example of Einstein is weak because there is analytical evidence that he's correct. There is only opinionated evidence that West is correct.
> 
> Gregg Popovich never played, R.C. Buford never played, Red Auerbach never played. Isiah Thomas played. What's your point? My list could go on and on, as could yours. The argument that playing makes you more knowledgeable is questionable. While it helps getting a job, it doesn't mean they're any better at it. These ex-players have easier avenues to become coaches, GM's, scouts, etc.. The one's that make it the hard way have to have great basketball minds, there's no easy way in.
> 
> Evaluating the best players in the world can happen without playing against them I might add. You're also underestimating a lot of posters who do/have played competitive basketball.


Popovich played college ball ; he was the captain of the U.S. Air Force Academy team and was invited to training camp for the 1972 Olympics. Auerbach played at George Washington University and had a year of pro ball (this was before the NBA was created). Not sure about Buford.

I don't think there are many NBA coaches and general managers that haven't played high-level basketball. One current one I can think of is Nets coach Lawrence Frank, who was one of the basketball team managers at Indiana but never played college ball.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

bball2223 said:


> He didn't pick Kobe, he got Kobe in a trade from Charlotte who originally picked him, or am I mistaking him for someone else?


Yes he did pick Kobe. He traded Divac to Charlotte who picked Kobe. Its trading draft picks, Kobe was the player that he wanted.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

KnowBaller said:


> Popovich played college ball ; he was the captain of the U.S. Air Force Academy team and was invited to training camp for the 1972 Olympics. Auerbach played at George Washington University and had a year of pro ball (this was before the NBA was created). Not sure about Buford.
> 
> I don't think there are many NBA coaches and general managers that haven't played high-level basketball. One current one I can think of is Nets coach Lawrence Frank, who was one of the basketball team managers at Indiana but never played college ball.


Great post!


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

Drewbs said:


> Yes he did pick Kobe. He traded Divac to Charlotte who picked Kobe. Its trading draft picks, Kobe was the player that he wanted.


actually, he could have picked kobe too. they could have had a set agreement, in that charlotte was specifically asked by jerry to choose kobe.. so that they could trade him for vlade.


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