# Bulls Dysfunction



## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/...g-deserves-bulls-mess-believing-gm-gar-forman



> Fred Hoiberg isn’t without blame.
> 
> After all, the first-year Bulls coach actually believed what was coming out of the mouth of his so-called friend in general manager Gar Forman.
> 
> Enough so that he actually left the comforts of Ames, Iowa, walked away from a successful basketball program which he built, and chose to be dropped smack dab in the middle of *Team Dysfunction.*





> That’s where Bulls basketball is these days. One misdirection after another. Last year, this so-called “championship roster’’ was supposedly held back by Thibodeau, and this year, well, a puff of smoke from the sleeves of Gar/Pax, and look, it now magically falls on the players.


It has been quite the blame shift. Epic.




> Meanwhile, as the Sun-Times reported last week, the two-headed snake of Gar/Pax is already starting to turn on each other – or at least one of the heads is – with several NBA sources saying that Forman has been busy trying to wipe his fingerprints off of the decisions gone bad just in case Reinsdorf does start taking a look at front office changes.


Sorry Gar. Your position was created by Paxson so you would be the one to go in this scenario. You are not going to win this one. The real snake keeps his job.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

I read those quotes and I was like "oh, must be a Joe Cowley article". Who else would call them 'snakes'? Did Foreman or Paxson actually come out and say they had a "championship roster", or is Cowley just knocking down a strawman there?

Either way, dysfunction does seem to be the prevailing theme this year and there's plenty of blame to place at the feet of Paxson and Foreman, whose collective regime has likely outlived its effectiveness... I just wish Cowley didn't seem to take such joy in it... he reminds me a bit of Jay Mariotti with the over the top rhetoric intended to incite/troll the fanbase.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Yeah, both things are true. Cowley is a slimeball a la Jay Mariotti, and the Bulls are a mess.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

Yes, yes, attack the source. 

Cowley is Cowley. 

He's one of the only media members in town who doesn't show up, eat a free meal and regurgitate the message from the Bulls communications department.

The Bulls are a mess. 

Nice job Paxson.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> Yes, yes, attack the source.
> 
> Cowley is Cowley.
> 
> ...


You can only say "attack the source" if someone is doing that to discredit the source's information. Everyone in this thread has said Cowley sucks but the Bulls are nonetheless a mess (i.e. agreeing with the source). So feel free to knock down a different strawman.

I would note you didn't contend Cowley is actually a talented, accurate, ethical, etc. reporter.

He is the equivalent of Skip Bayless and his ilk. If that's your thing, super.

But Cowley sucking is a separate issue from the state of the Bulls. Everyone agreed that state is bad. So you don't actually have anyone to argue against on that front, sadly.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Cowley is a documented POS and terrible human being, stuff that goes beyond the sports world. As a journalist, he sensationalizes his reporting and conveniently releases his most buzz worthy articles when the team hits its low points. He must get more of a reaction that way. 

Though the Bulls are sinking fast right now, I hope people keep in mind that the team's current injury situation is about as bad, or worse, than it ever was during the Thibodeau era. That isn't exactly helping matters. Won't stop the finger pointing though, or trying to attribute X% of the blame to person Y. That isn't meant to imply nobody is without blame.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Viagra can fix the problem!


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

Dornado said:


> Did Foreman or Paxson actually come out and say they had a "championship roster", or is Cowley just knocking down a strawman there?


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/ct-tom-thibodeau-fired-20150528-story.html



> Seconds later, Paxson added: “We probably wouldn’t be sitting here if we won a championship” – a nod to the realities of pro sports: No matter how difficult a player or coach is to work with, winning cures all.
> 
> But the Bulls didn’t win in the postseason under Thibodeau, who was removed Thursday after five seasons. The team’s performance in the second-round loss to the Cavaliers was particularly galling, given that Cleveland played without Kevin Love and with a hobbled Kyrie Irving.
> 
> "We were all really disappointed in the way the season ended," Paxson said. "Cleveland is a great team and they're in the Finals. But we felt like, given their injuries, the path was there for us if we could have seized it."


Same roster as this season.

The team is clearly playing worse under Hoiberg than Thibs. This roster was a missed Lebron three / Gasol ankle sprain away from knocking off the team that went to the Finals and took the Warriors to 6.

As it stands right now, the Bulls are close to missing the playoffs. In the East.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

yodurk said:


> Though the Bulls are sinking fast right now, I hope people keep in mind that the team's current injury situation is about as bad, or worse, than it ever was during the Thibodeau era.


Right, so Thibs wasn't the problem. That was always ridiculous.

Jen Swanson is still collecting paychecks. Thibs is gone (still collecting uncle jerry's money tho  ). More injuries than ever!

Paxson is still collecting paychecks too. The team is in free-fall.

What a mess Paxson has created.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> Right, so Thibs wasn't the problem. That was always ridiculous.
> 
> Jen Swanson is still collecting paychecks. Thibs is gone (still collecting uncle jerry's money tho  ). More injuries than ever!
> 
> ...



Well, I'm not sure this is a terribly honest post. You have to look at the nature of the injuries, not just say "HEY, INJURIES!" when assessing the situation.

If you buy into the whole Thibs overplaying guys thing (and I doubt you do), then what you would be looking at are injuries that result from overuse as potentially resulting from Thibs' heavy minutes. Jo's plantar fascia issues, for example.

This season hasn't really featured those sorts of injuries. The big ones are:

Jo's shoulder dislocation - an acute, non-overuse injury,

Rose's face - an acute, non-overuse injury,

Dunleavy's back - potentially overuse, potentially just unavoidable degenerative issues, but in any event arising pre-Hoiberg,

Butler's knee - an acute, non-overuse injury, and

Niko's appendix - not an "injury" at all.

Anyway, none of the foregoing has any bearing on whether Thibs was getting guys hurt by playing them too much. And none has any bearing on Hoiberg vis a vis injuries, because they are not the sort of injuries you get from playing too much.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

K4E said:


> http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/ct-tom-thibodeau-fired-20150528-story.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So... basically Paxson said they would have kept Thibs if we had won it all (despite his differences with management), and said we had a chance to beat Cleveland because they had a lot of injuries, and that has been translated into "We have a championship roster"?

I'm not trying to defend the front office by asking the question... Cowley put that shit (this so-called "championship roster") in quotes, so I was wondering if Foreman or Paxson had actually come out and said it.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Dornado said:


> So... basically Paxson said they would have kept Thibs if we had won it all (despite his differences with management), and said we had a chance to beat Cleveland because they had a lot of injuries, and that has been translated into "We have a championship roster"?
> 
> I'm not trying to defend the front office by asking the question... Cowley put that shit (this so-called "championship roster") in quotes, so I was wondering if Foreman or Paxson had actually come out and said it.



Yeah, that particular quote makes it seem more like GarPax was just acknowledging the reality that no team that wins a championship is going to can its coach. But it's also true that they seemed to believe the Bulls should've gotten by the Cavs. Given the Cavs made the Finals, it seems likely that GarPax believed the Bulls should have gotten to the Finals, if not actually toppled Golden State.

K4E seems to share this believe, given the repeated references to how close the Bulls were to making the Finals. A "whisper away," as it were. So K4E and GarPax appear to be in agreement that last year's roster was Finals-worthy.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Cowley = thebizkit of the Sun-Times. He doesn't give a crap about what others think and tells it like it is. Cowley is 100% right and accurate in his description of this franchise. So what if he uses words like "snake" or "dysfunctional" when talking about this team, because It's pretty spot on.

The fact that other writers are now no longer afraid to speak up, just gives more credibility to Cowley.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Cowley = thebizkit of the Sun-Times. He doesn't give a crap about what others think and tells it like it is. Cowley is 100% right and accurate in his description of this franchise. So what if he uses words like "snake" or "dysfunctional" when talking about this team, because It's pretty spot on.
> 
> The fact that other writers are now no longer afraid to speak up, just gives more credibility to Cowley.


I have no problem with someone being critical of the team or the front office... I was just asking about the "So called 'championship roster'" line because it was pretty central to Cowley's contention that Paxson and Foreman blamed Thibs for underperforming with a great (championship) roster, and are now changing their tune ("with a puff of smoke" as he says) and blaming the roster for Hoiberg's failings. 

If they didn't actually call it a championship roster it is a pretty disingenuous way of writing it up, and it negates an essential premise of his argument. Criticism is fine... purposefully mis-characterizing things to make them more convenient for the sake of your criticism is lazy and intellectually dishonest. To me, his articles read like they were written by an angry message board poster, or as an op-ed for a high school newspaper (do they still have those?). 

Maybe they did say it... I'm just saying that Cowley's over-the-top rhetoric and constant trolling of Bulls (in particular Derrick Rose) fans makes it hard for me to sort through the bullshit and get to the valid criticism.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Garpax made no progressive moves to improve this team during its "Window", have made it a habit of holding on to players past their prime trade value, they FIRED one of the best coaches in the league after losing to an all time great player in the playoffs a few times. CLEARLY they thought this was a championship caliber team. They kept bringing back the same team year after year, you don't do that if you don't think you have a great team. No doubt in my mind Garpax thought the Bulls lost because of Thibs. No way in their minds do they believe that they didn't put together a Championship caliber team.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

K4E said:


> Right, so Thibs wasn't the problem. That was always ridiculous.
> 
> Jen Swanson is still collecting paychecks. Thibs is gone (still collecting uncle jerry's money tho  ). More injuries than ever!
> 
> ...


Thibodeau was A problem. Not the only problem. He was the first problem to be addressed. 

I could care less about Jen Swanson. You won't insult me saying she has failed at keeping the team healthy.

Why do you go on about Paxson like this? Paxson isn't even the one managing the team these days. From what I've gathered he is more of a consultant on basketball decisions and may have some sort of veto power. Gar Forman is the one on thin ice, IMO.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Cowley = thebizkit of the Sun-Times. He doesn't give a crap about what others think and tells it like it is. Cowley is 100% right and accurate in his description of this franchise. So what if he uses words like "snake" or "dysfunctional" when talking about this team, because It's pretty spot on.
> 
> The fact that other writers are now no longer afraid to speak up, just gives more credibility to Cowley.


You have 1 thing right, Cowley isn't afraid to speak out. Whether he is credible on a given matter is a whole other thing. Something tells me he values website hits more than telling the honest story in a non-biased way. Which is what credible journalists are supposed to do.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

yodurk said:


> Thibodeau was A problem. Not the only problem. He was the first problem to be addressed.
> 
> 
> Why do you go on about Paxson like this?


Why do you always have to include some sort of shot at Thibs whether this stuff comes up lol. 

Thibs was only a problem to the egos of the front office. It's crystal clear now that there was no legit basketball reasons for his firing.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

yodurk said:


> thebizkit69u said:
> 
> 
> > Cowley = thebizkit of the Sun-Times. He doesn't give a crap about what others think and tells it like it is. Cowley is 100% right and accurate in his description of this franchise. So what if he uses words like "snake" or "dysfunctional" when talking about this team, because It's pretty spot on.
> ...


What is he saying that is biased? It's not like he was the only person with league sources to shine light on the problems with the front office and Thibs. Heck, Adrian Woj was taking about this stuff 2 seasons ago. Is his credibility on the line? 

Just because he's not a Bulls shill like the majority of people who cover Bulls, that makes him not credible?


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Why do you always have to include some sort of shot at Thibs whether this stuff comes up lol.
> 
> Thibs was only a problem to the egos of the front office. It's crystal clear now that there was no legit basketball reasons for his firing.


It wasn't meant to be a shot at Thibodeau, not this time at least.

K4E said: "Right, so Thibs wasn't the problem. That was always ridiculous."

I am refuting this myth that there is/was a singular definitive problem with the Bulls last year. K4E likes to say or imply that popular fan theory was "Thibodeau was THE problem" and that all our problems would be solved by getting rid of him.

Nobody ever said that, few likely thought that. 

It gets old falling into this human tendency to attribute a poor team performance down to 1 single factor. Truth is there were several notable ones. I am merely pointing out that Thibodeau was 1 (of several) problems, and he just so happened to be the first to go.

It's the NBA, this happens all the time. 5 years as a head coach is a great run, and Thibodeau is a good coach.

I beg to differ there were basketball problems, but I've only stated those about 117 times on this board, so would rather not re-hash that yet again. You guys have your opinions, I'm not going to change them.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> What is he saying that is biased? It's not like he was the only person with league sources to shine light on the problems with the front office and Thibs. Heck, Adrian Woj was taking about this stuff 2 seasons ago. Is his credibility on the line?
> 
> Just because he's not a Bulls shill like the majority of people who cover Bulls, that makes him not credible?


Cowley slants every article he writes in some way. You could find his photo in the textbook definition of biased reporting. 

Woj is the same way. Woj loses alot of credibility to me because of the way in which he gets his information. He basically sells biased/slanted stories in exchange for information. This isn't exactly a secret, it's pretty well known at this point. You don't become the most plugged in NBA writer in the world without slanting stories in favor of your information providers.

And before you bring it up, yes, guys like KC Johnson are likely the same way, but from the Bulls front office point of view. 

This is why I hate media, BTW. This problem goes way beyond sports.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

yodurk said:


> Woj is the same way. Woj loses alot of credibility to me because of the way in which he gets his information. He basically sells biased/slanted stories in exchange for information. This isn't exactly a secret, it's pretty well known at this point. You don't become the most plugged in NBA writer in the world without slanting stories in favor of your information providers.
> 
> And before you bring it up, yes, guys like KC Johnson are likely the same way, but from the Bulls front office point of view.
> 
> This is why I hate media, BTW. This problem goes way beyond sports.


Fair enough. But, these guys are accused of posting slanted stuff mostly because when they give the front office a chance to give their side of the story, they either don't or they just leak it to their own lap dog beat writers like KC Johnson, who IMO lack way more credibility than the likes of Woj and Cowley.

If you want to call a guy like Vangundy biased, sure. Hes friends with Thibs after all. Cowley and Woj are just doing their jobs, it's not their fault that Garpax and co like to keep everything under their control.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

yodurk said:


> Thibodeau was A problem. Not the only problem. He was the first problem to be addressed.


Not really, no. Thibs wasn't the problem. The front office was / is. 

If he was a problem, one would think you would see improvement once the problem was addressed.


In fact, you've seen the opposite. The team is in free-fall. Identity-less. Rudderless. Leaderless. Lost. 

Let's hope Hoiball can take hold and Paxson can right the ship.

The Bulls were a whisper away from knocking off the Cavs last season and very, very close to making the NBA Finals. Same roster this season. Now we're seeing the same roster without Thibs. Ick. Paxson, Forman and Jen Swanson (why so many injuries?) are still collecting paychecks.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

yodurk said:


> Nobody ever said that, few likely thought that.


He was the only guy to get demonized and smeared by the front office and then fired though.

And now we're left with Paxson and this smoldering mess that without Thibs pulling off his miracles is being exposed.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

Jimmy Butler's absence over the next month is going to lower morale even further in Chicago. Get your hard hats on


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Marcus13 said:


> Jimmy Butler's absence over the next month is going to lower morale even further in Chicago. Get your hard hats on


Not for the players who don't even like the guy.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

K4E said:


> Not really, no. Thibs wasn't the problem. The front office was / is.
> 
> If he was a problem, one would think you would see improvement once the problem was addressed.


There you go again. "THE problem." Nobody is saying that. He was one problem of several.

Things haven't improved because the other problems haven't been adequately addressed. Some of those other problems actually have gotten worse. 

Also if Hoiberg does indeed flame out here in the end, that doesn't exempt Thibodeau from blame. It just means the coaching replacement was inadequate.



> In fact, you've seen the opposite. The team is in free-fall. Identity-less. Rudderless. Leaderless. Lost.


So in other words, exactly like last season!



> Let's hope Hoiball can take hold and Paxson can right the ship.
> 
> The Bulls were a whisper away from knocking off the Cavs last season and very, very close to making the NBA Finals. Same roster this season. Now we're seeing the same roster without Thibs. Ick. Paxson, Forman and Jen Swanson (why so many injuries?) are still collecting paychecks.


Did you miss the part where JNR did a rundown of which injuries were wear & tear injuries versus traumatic one-time impact injuries? Not saying Swanson is doing her job well or making a difference, how would I know, but how the heck do you attribute a guy getting a separated shoulder or hyperextended knee to the trainer? Or moreso the team management. 

You didn't address my question about Paxson. Why do you put this on Paxson? If you go that far, why not Reinsdorf then? If you blame anyone the most, blame Gar Forman. Gar is running basketball operations. He should be first to go, and then you let Paxson hand pick his replacement, a guy like Matt Lloyd perhaps. Paxson shouldn't get fired for not doing Gar's job for him. That is why Gar was hired into his current position.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

yodurk said:


> So in other words, exactly like last season!


No, the Bulls were a 50 win team last season and were a Gasol ankle sprain / Lebron missed three away from knocking off a team that went to the Finals. The Exec VP fired the coach partially on the premise that this roster could get to the NBA Finals.

That doesn't appear to be the case this year. We'll see. As it stands right now, they are in danger of not making the playoffs, as improbable as it seems.




> Did you miss the part where JNR did a rundown of which injuries were wear & tear injuries versus traumatic one-time impact injuries? Not saying Swanson is doing her job well or making a difference, how would I know, but how the heck do you attribute a guy getting a separated shoulder or hyperextended knee to the trainer? Or moreso the team management.


How do you attribute injuries to the head coach? Plenty were doing that and criticizing Thibs for bristling against the Jen Swanson minutes restrictions, which he abided by.

Meanwhile, Jimmy Butler is allowed to lead the league in minutes this season again with a different coach and now he's out for a month. 

If that type of thing was on Thibs last year, why isn't it on Hoiberg this year? Why isn't that the story being fed to Sam Smith and KC Johnson? Because the smear is over.




> You didn't address my question about Paxson. Why do you put this on Paxson? If you go that far, why not Reinsdorf then? If you blame anyone the most, blame Gar Forman. Gar is running basketball operations. He should be first to go, and then you let Paxson hand pick his replacement, a guy like Matt Lloyd perhaps. Paxson shouldn't get fired for not doing Gar's job for him. That is why Gar was hired into his current position.


Paxson has been on the job collecting paychecks for 12+ years now.

In that time there has been very little meaningful success.

Paxson failed as a GM absurdly thinking that a core of Hinrich-Gordon-Deng-Nocioni was a contender. Comical in hindsight.

Instead of being held accountable for his failure, he was kicked upstairs and the Gar position was created. 

Paxson physically attacked a head coach.
Paxson was the head of an organization that performed a brutal media smear against a good man in Thibs.
Paxson's teams don't accomplish much of note.

I guess at some point you would like to think that people are held accountable for poor performance. Especially after over a decade of collecting paychecks.

On the basketball court, if the goal is to win in a meaningful fashion, the organization Paxson runs has not accomplished much in 12+ (!!!!) years of collecting paychecks. The profits are through the roof though, which of course if the bottom line. 

As for Gar, yes, he'll be fired next. That's why the position was created. Paxson tired of explaining away his bad decisions and answering to the media, so a Gar was created. Now Gar will take the fall. 

I prefer the job Gar has done as "GM" to the one Paxson did. There have been solid draft picks and some good free agent pickups as well. Also a bit less screwy "right way" / no headband nonsense.

Gar isn't the reason the Bulls organization is a dysfunctional mess. Its higher up than that. And yes, if you were going to do a deep dive in explaining what is actually going on, the Reinsdorfs would be involved as well. Getting rid of Thibs didn't change anything for the better. I doubt getting rid of Gar will either, but as always, we'll see.

Paxson is the VP of BASKETBALL OPERATIONS. The buck stops with him basketball wise. There is also a general counsel/finance guy at Paxson's level it seems. Paxson is the top basketball guy. How is the basketball product looking? 

How many Gars does Paxson get? 3?


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Why do you always have to include some sort of shot at Thibs whether this stuff comes up lol.
> 
> Thibs was only a problem to the egos of the front office. It's crystal clear now that there was no legit basketball reasons for his firing.



You mean like the players wanting him fired and refusing to train in Chicago in the offseason because they couldn't stand to be around Thibs? This is not a legit basketball reason?

It can both be true that the Thibs era had run its course and that Gar has not put together a championship roster. It's not an either or proposition.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Heck, Adrian Woj was taking about this stuff 2 seasons ago. Is his credibility on the line?



Wait, you've never heard about Woj's credibility problems? He's definitely the #1 person at breaking transactional news, but he was caught essentially writing positive pieces about Joe Dumars job managing the Pistons in exchange for inside info.

https://newrepublic.com/article/120...basketballs-reporting-machine-gets-his-scoops


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> Not really, no. Thibs wasn't the problem. The front office was / is.
> 
> If he was a problem, one would think you would see improvement once the problem was addressed.


That's actually not true. Even if Thibs needed to go, it's no certainty that Fred was the right guy to replace him. Firing Thibs and hiring Fred can be evaluated separately.

As you've pointed out repeatedly, there's been no indication so far that Fred is doing a better job than Thibs did. It also seems pretty clear his players are not executing his instructions, which is odd. That's something that in my view falls on both the coach and players.



> In fact, you've seen the opposite. The team is in free-fall. Identity-less. Rudderless. Leaderless. Lost.
> 
> Let's hope Hoiball can take hold and Paxson can right the ship.
> 
> The Bulls were a whisper away from knocking off the Cavs last season and very, very close to making the NBA Finals. Same roster this season. Now we're seeing the same roster without Thibs. Ick. Paxson, Forman and Jen Swanson (why so many injuries?) are still collecting paychecks.


It is the same roster, but obviously a much, much less healthy version of it.

I addressed the injury issue earlier and pointed out that the whole Jen Swanson thing is a red herring because what you're talking about this season is acute injuries (and non-injury unavailability like Niko's appendix) that have rendered players unavailable. it has not, by and large, had anything to do with overuse/minutes, which is what I assume Jen Swanson is around to monitor.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> Wait, you've never heard about Woj's credibility problems? He's definitely the #1 person at breaking transactional news, but he was caught essentially writing positive pieces about Joe Dumars job managing the Pistons in exchange for inside info.
> 
> https://newrepublic.com/article/120...basketballs-reporting-machine-gets-his-scoops


Attack the source, attack the source, attack the source.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> Firing Thibs and hiring Fred can be evaluated separately.


Neither have helped. The team is clearly worse off.





> As you've pointed out repeatedly, there's been no indication so far that Fred is doing a better job than Thibs did.


Ha! Given the team is almost out of the playoffs, that's pretty clear.



> It also seems pretty clear his players are not executing his instructions, which is odd. That's something that in my view falls on both the coach and players.


The Thibs Bulls always fought through injuries to be at least one of the stronger Eastern Conference regular season teams.

Heck, last season the team was a 50 win team that the VP said was strong enough to make the NBA Finals.

This group is a mess.





> I addressed the injury issue earlier and pointed out that the whole Jen Swanson thing is a red herring because what you're talking about this season is acute injuries (and non-injury unavailability like Niko's appendix) that have rendered players unavailable. it has not, by and large, had anything to do with overuse/minutes, which is what I assume Jen Swanson is around to monitor.


What about the Butler knee injury?

Why is he leading the league in minutes still once Thibs is gone?

And he got hurt.

If that was on the coach last year while the organization was publicly smearing him during a year where the team had a legit shot to make the Finals, why isn't that on the coach now?

Why don't we even hear about Jen Swanson anymore?

These Bulls are a mess.

Great job Paxson.

12+ years of collecting paychecks.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> How do you attribute injuries to the head coach? Plenty were doing that and criticizing Thibs for bristling against the Jen Swanson minutes restrictions, which he abided by.


I wrote a fairly lengthy post discussing the difference between overuse and acute injuries, that you did not address.

It is also false to say that Thibs abided by the minutes restrictions. He did sometimes, and then openly bitched about it to the media (smearing the front office - even though you think the smear job was a one-way affair, despite obvious evidence to the contrary). He also violated minutes restrictions a whole heck of a lot. Sometime last year I actually went through the game logs and totaled up the number of times he blew Noah's minutes limit. It was a lot.



> Meanwhile, Jimmy Butler is allowed to lead the league in minutes this season again with a different coach and now he's out for a month.


Again, this is (I think intentionally) ignoring the difference between overuse injuries and acute injuries. Jimmy landing oddly on his knee is not a minutes thing. Tendonitis, plantar fasciitis, etc. would be overuse injuries.



> If that type of thing was on Thibs last year, why isn't it on Hoiberg this year? Why isn't that the story being fed to Sam Smith and KC Johnson? Because the smear is over.


Because there is no indication that Hoiberg is managing minutes contrary to his bosses' directives.




> Paxson has been on the job collecting paychecks for 12+ years now.
> 
> In that time there has been very little meaningful success.
> 
> ...



You can obviously make a case that Paxson should be fired, even if your bit about the one-way smear campaign against "good man" Thibs is not entirely honest. But now you're getting into what _should_ happen vs. what is actually possible. Reinsdorf is loyal to his guys to a fault. Your best chance of having Paxson's role reduced/eliminated is probably only through another promotion rather than a firing, like was done with Kenny Williams. Even if you're correct that Pax should go, we've got no reason to believe it's possible, unless Michael Reinsdorf will run things differently than his father.

So yeah, a lot of your issues run right to the top.

It's weird to me that you think this roster sucks and yet praise Gar's tenure as a GM. This is Gar's roster!


----------



## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> It's weird to me that you think this roster sucks and yet praise Gar's tenure as a GM. This is Gar's roster!


This roster was good enough to be a whisper away from making the Finals last season under Thibs.

Butler is a legit NBA all-star. The Gasol contract and his production are strong. Niko was a 17+ PER guy last season under Thibs. Gibson is a stout 4.

"They have enough." At least when Thibs was coaching them. At least to be one of the stronger teams in the East.

Its funny, when Thibs was the coach, injuries would happen and the team would power through them.

"Next man up."

Under Hoiball, its "wahhh injuries" as an excuse for not making the playoffs. This is with a VP-Basketball Ops whose initial expression was "no excuses."

Mr "no excuses" has been collecting paychecks for 12+ years now with little meaningful success. These have been TONS of excuses.


----------



## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> Even if you're correct that Pax should go, we've got no reason to believe it's possible, unless Michael Reinsdorf will run things differently than his father.


We do know that a Reinsforf run team and win multiple NBA championships and a World Series though, so that doesn't seem to be a limiting factor.

You do need the right people calling the shots though.


----------



## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> Because there is no indication that Hoiberg is managing minutes contrary to his bosses' directives.


Is there any indication that the bosses know what they are talking about on this front?

Thibs is gone and there are TONS of injuries. Butler was still leading the league in MPG. Old man Gasol is still logging heavy minutes in a very un-Popovich like manner.

Why don't we hear about minutes restrictions anymore?

Was that an actual thing, or just a way to smear Thibs?


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> This roster was good enough to be a whisper away from making the Finals last season under Thibs.
> 
> Butler is a legit NBA all-star. The Gasol contract and his production are strong. Niko was a 17+ PER guy last season under Thibs. Gibson is a stout 4.
> 
> ...



So, you think this is a championship-level roster, essentially? Your only criticism, then, is of the head coach that was hired/prior coach firing?


----------



## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> So, you think this is a championship-level roster, essentially? Your only criticism, then, is of the head coach that was hired/prior coach firing?


The VP-Basketball Ops said he was disappointed that this roster didn't make the Finals last year.

This team was a 50 win team last year that was a Gasol ankle spring / Lebron 3 away from having a clear path to the Finals.

Obviously if the question is "can they beat the Warriors" the answer is likely no. 

But then why are they trying to "win now" with Gasol in the first place?


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> The VP-Basketball Ops said he was disappointed that this roster didn't make the Finals last year.
> 
> This team was a 50 win team last year that was a Gasol ankle spring / Lebron 3 away from having a clear path to the Finals.
> 
> ...



Because 29 teams can't be tanking simultaneously.

The Jordan Bulls were basically unbeatable during their peak run. Does that mean the correct call for every other NBA team was to tank? Wins and losses are a zero-sum game. It just doesn't work the way you suggest.


----------



## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> The Jordan Bulls were basically unbeatable during their peak run. Does that mean the correct call for every other NBA team was to tank?


Fine. Then don't spend a lot of energy worrying about Doug McDermott and his development last season. Perhaps a better route to go down would have been to use that pick and trade for a vet that can actually help the cause during the "win now" seasons.

Certainly don't criticize your great coach for not getting a bad player (sorry, he's bad to this point) enough development minutes.

If its "win now" then do "win now." Make the Wiggins for Love move. Don't try and develop Wiggins while trying to win the title. Its hard enough to win the title as it is.

Rolling the dice with an unproven head coach of course is a crap shoot as well. Hoiberg doesn't seem to be getting the most out of these guys to this point. Its been a bad hire so far from a "win now" perspective.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> Fine. Then don't spend a lot of energy worrying about Doug McDermott and his development last season. Perhaps a better route to go down would have been to use that pick and trade for a vet that can actually help the cause during the "win now" seasons.
> 
> Certainly don't criticize your great coach for not getting a bad player (sorry, he's bad to this point) enough development minutes.
> 
> ...



McDermott =/= Wiggins.

You do recall that the Bulls were actively shopping their picks and players for Love, right?

This is where you point out that the Bulls need higher lotto picks to go after guys like Love, and I don't disagree. And maybe the team needs to get bad to do that. But to criticize them for not being willing to trade their young guys for Kevin Love isn't fair, because they attempted to do exactly that.


----------



## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> But to criticize them for not being willing to trade their young guys for Kevin Love isn't fair, because they attempted to do exactly that.


Ultimately Paxson is criticized for this.

12+ seasons
0 Championships
0 Finals appearances
1 ECF appearace.

Its unfair to the fans to have to put up with that.

Even if GarPax failed in trading rookies / picks for established talent, the focus in a "win now" season isn't on developing that rookie talent for 3+ years down the road. Its on "winning now" even if Doug McDermott's dad is a little ass hurt by it.

Whether your example is one of not trying, not trying hard or just yet another failure to execute for Paxson et al, the focus should not have been last season on Doug McDermott's development. That's "win later." 

He's not even good enough to really care about at this point, other than just an embarrassment to the organization.

And I think we both agree on Hoiberg not helping the cause much this season, yes?


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> Ultimately Paxson is criticized for this.
> 
> 12+ seasons
> 0 Championships
> ...


Yeah, we definitely do.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

http://www.blogabull.com/2016/2/11/10968770/the-worst-front-office-in-the-nba-the-chicago-bulls

The Worst Front Office in the NBA: The Chicago Bulls

Yah, pretty much one of the worst at the very least.

My goodness, what an epic read.

Longtime Bulls front office fans are looking pretty bad as of late.


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

The prescriptions for Bulls are too late.

Clippers prescription is to deal Griffin and Rockets prescription is to deal Howard.


----------



## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Well, I'm not sure this is a terribly honest post. You have to look at the nature of the injuries, not just say "HEY, INJURIES!" when assessing the situation.
> 
> If you buy into the whole Thibs overplaying guys thing (and I doubt you do), then what you would be looking at are injuries that result from overuse as potentially resulting from Thibs' heavy minutes. Jo's plantar fascia issues, for example.
> 
> ...


Don't forget the Thibs worked guys too hard in practice argument as well.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

Back to back lifeless losses to the lowly Knicks.

The last gasp of the Thibs winning ways are leaving the system.....

“Hell yeah, I’m embarrassed,’’ veteran forward Taj Gibson said. “I take pride in wearing this jersey. I love wearing a Bulls jersey, especially what we’ve been through. I take pride in playing for Chicago when I wear that jersey. I try and go out there and play my heart out. And it’s frustrating when we come up shot and we look at ourselves when we lose to a – I don’t want to criticize – but trash teams. Everyone is in the NBA for a reason, but we’re playing against teams that aren’t playing for anything and we’re just laying down.’’

“It feels like we’re a target,’’ Gibson said. “It feels like teams aren’t taking us serious. Teams are more eager to play us. Where it used to be vice versa. They knew we were coming to punch people in the face and keep playing. It’s hard, man. It really eats me up inside. It’s hard to sleep at night knowing that it’s coming down to the wire and our effort isn’t there. It’s really frustrating.’’

“I think you’re talking about everybody, coaches included,’’ Gibson said. “Everybody has got to look at themselves and see what it is they can do better.

“I don’t think it has anything to do with what we have on paper. You can have six guys that are seven feet tall, but if you don’t have the heart, you don’t have the will, you don’t have the energy to go out there and fight for the guy next to you and fight for the right reasons, you won’t succeed.

“The previous years we fought for each other, we fought for the right reasons. We played hard.’’

Sad days to be a Bulls fan. The Hoiball era that GarPax pined for has been a failure to this point.


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> *This will not be over quickly. You will not enjoy this. I'm not your king.*


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

We have gotten blown out three straight games to teams we should have easily beaten. Especially Orlando! They had lost 6 in a row, And was without 3 key rotation players. 

We are suppose to be fighting for a playoff spot. I don't see any fight.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

truebluefan said:


> We have gotten blown out three straight games to teams we should have easily beaten. Especially Orlando! They had lost 6 in a row, And was without 3 key rotation players.
> 
> We are suppose to be fighting for a playoff spot. I don't see any fight.


This team has pretty clearly thrown in the towel. I am avoiding watching games for the first time in years. There's not much to like with this group.

It's not going to be easy to rebuild it, either. If they miss the playoffs (which seems likely), Gar should be shown the door, but I doubt it happens.


----------



## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/714148243014348800


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

K4E said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/714148243014348800



It's what this fanbase deserves. I've been saying for years how shit this front office is and Bulls fans still slurped and sipped the koolaide.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

http://www.blogabull.com/2016/4/7/11321660/chicago-bulls-injury-history-training-staff-derrick-rose



> A Half-Decade of Injury-Plagued Seasons
> 
> A little under five years ago, Jacob Grinyer of BrewHoop put together a comprehensive list of NBA injury data from the first eleven seasons of the new millennium. His findings indicated that from 2000-2011, teams would typically average about 78.5 games per year lost due to injury across nine rotation players. The Bulls in particular averaged just under this average for the entirety of this stretch, with about 75 games per year lost.
> 
> ...


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

What do you guys think it would take for the Bulls' front office to trade Jimmy Butler? The Chicago front office had a few recent quotes that weren't exactly a ringing endorsement of the guy, and I imagine that Butler's going to be near the top of Danny Ainge's wish list this summer, with the Nets' pick as the primary trade chip.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Bogg said:


> What do you guys think it would take for the Bulls' front office to trade Jimmy Butler? The Chicago front office had a few recent quotes that weren't exactly a ringing endorsement of the guy, and I imagine that Butler's going to be near the top of Danny Ainge's wish list this summer, with the Nets' pick as the primary trade chip.


if the nets pick is in the top 2 I believe the bulls front office have to do it .


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> if the nets pick is in the top 2 I believe the bulls front office have to do it .


Yeah, I am in no way desperate to move Butler, but I would likely do it under those terms.

The more reports keep trickling out in the past week or two, the more it seems the Bulls organization is pretty broken. There appears to be Gar-Pax tension, Gar-Jimmy tension, Jimmy/Pau-Noah/Rose/Taj? tension, etc. It's hard to find a collection of people here that are on the same page.

Anyway, I assume the Bulls keep Butler. Maybe Rose goes. If Rose doesn't, you're looking at a minimum 2-year rebuild/retool process. 

My general impression is Butler has turned into a bit of a tool and I agree with the Pax criticism that he did way too much talking about leading and likely too little actual leading. Still, he's the best player on the team by a country mile, and he may well figure out how to lead his teammates more effectively. If he's incompatible with Hoiberg's sytem, it's incumbent on Fred to tailor what the team does to his players' strengths.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

Butler is the best NBA asset on the Bulls right now, player or front office wise.

Not good enough likely to be a 1A on a champion.

Problem is, if you trade him for picks, GarPax are the ones rebuilding the roster while collecting paychecks for the next N years.

Bulls have turned into an irrelevant franchise again without Thibs. 

What a mess GarPax made without Thibs. 

We all have seen in a good NBA environment, which Thibs created, Butler is an asset. 

If Butler joined a well run NBA franchise this would all be a non-issue.

In the silly circus headed by Paxson however, everything is pretty much a joke at this point.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> Butler is the best NBA asset on the Bulls right now, player or front office wise.
> 
> Not good enough likely to be a 1A on a champion.
> 
> ...



Ehh, this isn't terribly logical. In a Thibs environment, Butler is an asset? He's an asset now, post-Thibs, and is basically the same player this year he was last year, except now he is locked up on a long-term deal that is going to look fantastic this summer when the cap rises. If anything, his value now as an asset is at its highest point.

We've discussed the Thibs dismissal ad nauseum, so I won't rehash it here. I was fine with letting him go, and indeed, you're seeing now the fact that he is apparently making it a requirement of his next job that he have control over player personnel is pretty indicative of where he's at these days. But it sure as hell seems like there is plenty of dysfunction inside the Bulls organization irrespective of the Thibs issue. They let him go, Gar got his guy, and people still aren't getting along. Not good.

I agree with you that Butler is a very good player, but not likely your #1 on a championship team. Can you see Jimmy Butler agreeing to play second fiddle to anyone at this point? That's my main concern with him.


----------



## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> Ehh, this isn't terribly logical. In a Thibs environment, Butler is an asset? He's an asset now, post-Thibs, and is basically the same player this year he was last year, except now he is locked up on a long-term deal that is going to look fantastic this summer when the cap rises. If anything, his value now as an asset is at its highest point.


Eh, not so fast.

The smear is on. Hard workin' 2 way asset Jimmy Butler is being portrayed all over the media as a premadonna and a malcontent. 

This lowers his value. His arrow is pointed down sadly, and the Bulls media machine is helping make that happen. A quality org will know what to do with him, but given that the Bulls have poisoned the waters back home, they will also know the Bulls will be looking to ship him out.




> We've discussed the Thibs dismissal ad nauseum, so I won't rehash it here. I was fine with letting him go, and indeed, you're seeing now the fact that he is apparently making it a requirement of his next job that he have control over player personnel is pretty indicative of where he's at these days. But it sure as hell seems like there is plenty of dysfunction inside the Bulls organization irrespective of the Thibs issue. They let him go, Gar got his guy, and people still aren't getting along. Not good.



Bulls are sad now that Thibs is gone. If you are happy about that, then that's your prerogative. The front office dysfunction, previously masked by the winning ways of Thibs, is now publicly exposed.

The Paxson Bulls org is an irrelevant mess right now. What a maroon.

Thibs will have a job soon enough, either as coach or as coach/head of org. He's in the running for those types of positions. I wonder what Gar or Pax would fetch on the open market? Ha, that's funny to think about, given the mess they made of these Bulls.




> I agree with you that Butler is a very good player, but not likely your #1 on a championship team. Can you see Jimmy Butler agreeing to play second fiddle to anyone at this point? That's my main concern with him.


Not playing for this org, unless they get a solid leader again in Thibs or somehow land a superstar. I doubt GarPax are going to get that done. He won't be second fiddle to guys like Dougie McBuckets I imagine. 

Last year at this time the Bulls were the #3 seed in the East and in the midst of winning a playoff series. 

One year later, post Thibs firing, the team is a shambles. Great job GarPax. Let's keep having them collect paychecks.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Yeah, I am in no way desperate to move Butler, but I would likely do it under those terms.
> 
> The more reports keep trickling out in the past week or two, the more it seems the Bulls organization is pretty broken. There appears to be Gar-Pax tension, Gar-Jimmy tension, Jimmy/Pau-Noah/Rose/Taj? tension, etc. It's hard to find a collection of people here that are on the same page.
> 
> ...



the thing for me as far as butler is concerned is that this comes off as natural evolution.

jimmy has worked his tail off and wants to enjoy the perks of said labor.

he wants to be the face of the franchise ...as of right now there are growing pains and there should be ,the team is not winning , the old guard (rose noah) are still there along with most of the core from the previous regime 

jimmy has the skills for hoiball but mentally and ego-wise its a bad fit 

isoball is how jimmy became a star and its been effective, to bring him back into the fold will take some doing and until the system shows its worth having its not likely butler will buy into it fully .

the smart play here is to trade jimmy and do a complete rebuild and start fresh with a new core...or fire the coach and bring in a respected veteran coach who excels at isolation offense while keeping the other players motivated and playing defense ...mike woodson comes to mind but that is simply a road to being an also ran for a while longer.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> the thing for me as far as butler is concerned is that this comes off as natural evolution.
> 
> jimmy has worked his tail off and wants to enjoy the perks of said labor.
> 
> ...



I would take issue with the notion that isoball has been effective. It's been great for Jimmy's stat line. However, the last two seasons, in which Jimmy's iso game reached its prominence, is exactly when the Bulls have gone off the rails. Now, that may well be due to injuries, guys getting older, internal dysfunction, etc., but there hasn't been a correlation, let alone causation, of isoball working well for this team.

I do agree that Jimmy is just feeling his oats and it may all level out. He's a guy who has never been expected to be a star player. He didn't come up through high school and college with a big pedigree, anticipation, etc. So, he's getting his first taste of being "the guy." The way he's handled it has obviously caused some friction. But the old guard will be gone soon enough, so I'm not in any hurry to get him out of town due to the discord. I also don't believe he's untouchable.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> Eh, not so fast.
> 
> The smear is on. Hard workin' 2 way asset Jimmy Butler is being portrayed all over the media as a premadonna and a malcontent.
> 
> This lowers his value. His arrow is pointed down sadly, and the Bulls media machine is helping make that happen. A quality org will know what to do with him, but given that the Bulls have poisoned the waters back home, they will also know the Bulls will be looking to ship him out.


This is bogus. If the Bulls wanted to move on from Jimmy, the last thing they would do is initiate a smear campaign. It is about a thousand percent more likely that the leaks about discord in the locker room caused by Jimmy are coming from players.



> He won't be second fiddle to guys like Dougie McBuckets I imagine.


Of course, this is a distortion of what I was talking about, which is whether Jimmy would be comfortable playing second fiddle to a _superior_ player. But as per usual, you substitute a strawman to knock down. 

Do you think Jimmy would be ready to relegate himself for a true #1 player?



> Last year at this time the Bulls were the #3 seed in the East and in the midst of winning a playoff series.
> 
> One year later, post Thibs firing, the team is a shambles. Great job GarPax. Let's keep having them collect paychecks.


It's funny how sometimes 2nd round exists from the playoffs in your world are good accomplishments, and other times indicia of failure.


----------



## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> This is bogus. If the Bulls wanted to move on from Jimmy, the last thing they would do is initiate a smear campaign. It is about a thousand percent more likely that the leaks about discord in the locker room caused by Jimmy are coming from players.


Eh, not really.

Case in point, this recent gem. This is by Bulls employee Sam Smith.

http://larrybrownsports.com/basketball/jimmy-butler-collosal-ego-hangs-with-mark-wahlberg/301183



> On Saturday, Bulls.com reporter Sam Smith told Jason McIntyre on FOX Sports Radio that Butler has a “colossal ego” and isolates himself from his teammates.
> 
> “He’s really kind of full of himself,” Smith said. “He hangs around with Mark Wahlberg, the actor, and lets us know about that a lot. He goes around to premiers or whatever. He announced before the season that he’s the leader of the team and guys are looking around going, ‘What are you talking about?’
> 
> “It’s a really weird dynamic. He doesn’t like to socialize with the other players. Back in November they had a team bonding thing. They all chartered a bus and went up to wine country for the day. The only one who didn’t go was Jimmy.”




When the Bulls corporate employees / communications team is out saying this in public, its not by accident.

You would never hear Sam Smith saying such things about Reinsdorf in his current role. Or Paxson (unless he was being smeared on his way out). Or Gar (unless he was being smeared on his way out).

You did see plenty of stories like this last year about Thibs of course. Rose was getting a bit of this treatment when he wasn't coming back from his knee injury in the way they wanted.

What a dysfunctional mess Paxson runs. Bulls dysfunction.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> Eh, not really.
> 
> Case in point, this recent gem. This is by Bulls employee Sam Smith.
> 
> ...




Sorry, but your position makes no sense. The Bulls don't want Sam Smith out on the radio saying this sort of stuff, at least if their goal is to move Jimmy.

Moreover, Sam Smith isn't the _source_ of the leaks, which is part of the discussion. He's discussing info that has already been reported, and FWIW, appears perfectly accurate.


----------



## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> Sorry, but your position makes no sense. The Bulls don't want Sam Smith out on the radio saying this sort of stuff, at least if their goal is to move Jimmy.


The goal isn't to move Jimmy and get maximum value, the goal is to smear Jimmy.

The goal of the Bulls isn't winning in this case. (it rarely is, other than making the 1st round of the playoffs) Its about management saving face when its time to get rid of a guy they want to get rid of and preserving their own jobs. If locally Jimmy turns into "the bad guy" it makes their dumping a multi time all-star look like them getting rid of a malcontent. 

Its the same method used to dump a top 3 in the NBA coach. You were following that story I believe.

This isn't any position of mine. It is what happens time and time again with this team. Its as predictable as the sun rising in the East. This is how the Bulls org conducts its business.



> Moreover, Sam Smith isn't the _source_ of the leaks, which is part of the discussion. He's discussing info that has already been reported, and FWIW, appears perfectly accurate.


Sam Smith isn't out in public saying these things if he thinks it will rankle Bulls management. You admit to knowing that if it comes from KC Johnson, it comes from the Bulls Org and they want it out there.

Even moreso with Sam, who is a Bulls employee at this point.

Bulls management is OK with this negative perception of Jimmy out there at this point. Otherwise, Sam would not be talking about it as he is. Jimmy is the guy who called out Freddy. They don't like that. 

There is a negative perception about Uncle Jerry, Pax and Gar. You won't ever hear Sam lay the hammer against those guys.


----------



## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> Do you think Jimmy would be ready to relegate himself for a true [URL=http://www.basketballforum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1 [/URL] player?


Playing alongside a true 1A like Lebron? I think Jimmy would certainly know his role there.

He's the #1 by a mile on this team and is going to want to be treated as such. Welcome to the NBA.





> It's funny how sometimes 2nd round exists from the playoffs in your world are good accomplishments, and other times indicia of failure.


As for Thibs, he gets the most out of the talent he's given to work with. Year after year.

https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/paine-datalab-thibs.png?w=575

We all know this and so does the NBA. That's why he is not only a coach now but a team president. 

I wonder what Paxson would fetch on the open market based on his merit? Ha, that's funny to think about. I wonder if he would even get an interview?

It isn't funny that this organization under Paxson in a decade in a half has only made the eastern conference finals one lousy time. And that was with a guy coaching the team that got more out of the talent he was given than nearly anyone else in history.

That's not funny at all.


----------



## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

Da Grinch said:


> jimmy has the skills for hoiball but mentally and ego-wise its a bad fit
> 
> isoball is how jimmy became a star and its been effective, to bring him back into the fold will take some doing and until the system shows its worth having its not likely butler will buy into it fully .


You have to build your NBA team around the star talent that you do have, if you are trying to contend.

If the best player on your team doesn't want to play unproven / playoff-missing Hoiball, then its not a match. And talent is king in the NBA.

They can (and have) find D leaguers to do whatever Freddy wants. That team won't win anything of note.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> Playing alongside a true 1A like Lebron? I think Jimmy would certainly know his role there.


He's the #1 by a mile on this team and is going to want to be treated as such. Welcome to the NBA.


The first sentence is responsive. The second sentence is again another strawman. We all agree he's the best player on this team. _That's the problem._ It's the problem because I think we all agree he's not a good enough best player on a team to win a championship. 

There are many more players than LeBron that are better than Jimmy Buckets to whom he would need to defer. So, sure, he might defer to the best player since Jordan. Would he defer to Westbrook? Durant? Cousins? Davis? Steph? Those guys are all better than him and should be deferred to. What about Leonard? Harden? Paul? Klay? Wall? Lowry? Melo? Could he live with those as at least equals? Or would he still be trying to claim the team as his own?

So, at that point, you have to assess whether he's capable of being second fiddle to another player or not. Many guys feel they must be "the guy" on a team, even if they won't win. That's not the kind of guy you want. As you would say, "welcome to the NBA." So sure, Jimmy is the undisputed best player of this team, but the goal is for that not to be true, and sooner rather than later.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> You have to build your NBA team around the star talent that you do have, if you are trying to contend.
> 
> If the best player on your team doesn't want to play unproven / playoff-missing Hoiball, then its not a match. And talent is king in the NBA.
> 
> They can (and have) find D leaguers to do whatever Freddy wants. That team won't win anything of note.


This I generally agree with. Talent is king in the NBA, and it seems to make a lot more sense to try to mold your coaching to your talent than your talent to the coaching.

It's what makes Pop the best coach in the league. He can tailor a system to the resources he has.


----------



## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> So, at that point, you have to assess whether he's capable of being second fiddle to another player or not. Many guys feel they must be "the guy" on a team, even if they won't win. That's not the kind of guy you want. As you would say, "welcome to the NBA." So sure, Jimmy is the undisputed best player of this team, but the goal is for that not to be true, and sooner rather than later.


Under Thibs, Jimmy was a super effective player on a top NBA team.

Under this GarPax / Hoiball mess, well, not much is looking all that great. Butler still had a great year, made the all-star team and further established himself as one of the best players in the league.

I don't see any evidence that Jimmy would have a hard time deferring to a 1A. This wasn't a game changing issue when Thibs was the leader. A bit of tension, sure, many great teams have some of that especially when a new young gun is emerging, but the Bulls were the #3 seed in the east last year with the same roster that missed the playoffs under GarPaxBerg.

From the Bulls perspective, they should focus on getting that 1A and worry about the rest later. 

Butler is a great NBA player. GarPax are looking like a couple of schmucks at this point and Hoiberg is like a deer in the headlights.

Butler is easily the top asset on this team. If the Bulls decide to blow it up for lotto picks, well, that's their decision. They better hope and pray that Uncle Jerry gets another hot tip on a great coach and that the lotto balls bounce their way and that they make sound picks (was it gar or was it the scouting team?) in order to get back to where the Bulls were a couple years ago.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> This I generally agree with. Talent is king in the NBA, and it seems to make a lot more sense to try to mold your coaching to your talent than your talent to the coaching.
> 
> It's what makes Pop the best coach in the league. He can tailor a system to the resources he has.


Thibs as well. He turned Joakim Noah into an all-NBA 1st teamer after all after adjusting the offense to suit his skill set. That was one of the most impressive coaching performances I have seen.

Thibs is a super nimble coach who gets the most out of his players for many reasons, one of them changing his offensive sets to fit his personnel.

Sad for Bulls fans to this point that they are choosing to go with this unproven Hoiball and perhaps making major personnel moves based on it.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> I would take issue with the notion that isoball has been effective. It's been great for Jimmy's stat line. However, the last two seasons, in which Jimmy's iso game reached its prominence, is exactly when the Bulls have gone off the rails. Now, that may well be due to injuries, guys getting older, internal dysfunction, etc., but there hasn't been a correlation, let alone causation, of isoball working well for this team.
> 
> I do agree that Jimmy is just feeling his oats and it may all level out. He's a guy who has never been expected to be a star player. He didn't come up through high school and college with a big pedigree, anticipation, etc. So, he's getting his first taste of being "the guy." The way he's handled it has obviously caused some friction. But the old guard will be gone soon enough, so I'm not in any hurry to get him out of town due to the discord. I also don't believe he's untouchable.


stats don't lie, the bulls are better on both sides of the ball when butler is out there , the team may be on a downshift but it would be worse, a lot worse if butler had lets say decided to be minor league baseball player like MJ a couple of decades ago instead of subjecting us all to his brand of emerging leadership/making himself into a max player over the last couple of years.

and personally I don't really have a problem with butler nor that he feels the need to be the man , somebody has to try and lead this team and its usually best if that guy is the team's best player ....

but at the same time you have to be logical is a jimmy-rose-mirotic led offense going to capable of anything significant in the near future ?

my guess is no 

and the days of the bulls being a defensive juggernaut seem over 

its time to rebuild .


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

K4E said:


> You have to build your NBA team around the star talent that you do have, if you are trying to contend.
> 
> If the best player on your team doesn't want to play unproven / playoff-missing Hoiball, then its not a match. And talent is king in the NBA.
> 
> They can (and have) find D leaguers to do whatever Freddy wants. That team won't win anything of note.


even Jordan had to be convinced to go all in on the triangle and he had phil jax and tex winter on the coaching staff .

hoiberg in my opinion has to be in charge , jimmy is no LeBron you cant have him deciding what offense to run and how much to run it , he isnt so good that he can iso offense you to a 60 win season

hoiberg's big mistake was giving in , the more jimmy did his own thing the more minutes he got when it should have gone the other way 

in other words jimmy butler was right freddy should have "coached harder"


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

Da Grinch said:


> in other words jimmy butler was right freddy should have "coached harder"


If a NBA head coach can't engender the respect and inspire the players and lead, well, that's a weak NBA coach.

Is Butler just a knucklehead? No, not under Thibs at least.

Under GarPaxBerg a lot of things went south in a hurry.

Is Gasol a rotten player? No, he's a multi time all-star (including last season) and a NBA champion.

Is Butler a problem? No, he's a 2 time all-star and one of the best 2 way players in the league.

What is Hoiberg? Why does it matter, other than that is who our weak front office decided would be their boy? So far, he's a weak NBA coach whose team became much worse once he took it over.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> Is Butler just a knucklehead? No, not under Thibs at least.


The lack of the sense of irony here is stunning.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> The lack of the sense of irony here is stunning.


Not as stunning as the #3 seed in the east suddenly not making the playoffs with the same roster.

Also stunning to see people advocate on the behalf of the front office that made it happen.

---

Butler would be welcomed on most contending teams. He called out the weak GarPax lackey Hoiberg. Now the smear is on. This organization has gone to absolute crap under GarPax without Thibs and this kind of garbage is the fallout.

Sad to see this franchise in the state its in. Dysfunctional.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Cool. The solution to fixing Butler's "knucklehead" ways is to bring back the coach he got fired. Got it.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> Cool. The solution to fixing Butler's "knucklehead" ways is to bring back the coach he got fired. Got it.


Butler wasn't responsible for getting Thibs fired. You know that. That is just flat out cracker jacks. Management poisoned the environment. Everyone was sick of it by the end of the season, Butler included, and wasn't immune to the constant management drumbeat / smear of "Thibs is the problem."

You know the front office smeared Thibs in the press and Jen Swansoned a couple guys against working 100% anymore. And the team suffered for it. What was Noah's reward? Getting benched by GarPax's Hoiberg.

2 years later and the Bulls are not a playoff team anymore. And Thibs is a president of a NBA franchise. Ha, great job GarPax. The Bulls are worse off and Thibs is better off professionally. Bulls fans are of course far worse off.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/...hibodeau-dine-together-at-gibsons-steakhouse/

Here's Butler and Thibs enjoying a dinner a few weeks after the Thibs firing.










Does that look like a bad player / coach relationship to you?

Most winning NBA franchises would take Butler in a heartbeat. 

The GarPax Bulls - being NBA irrelevant and dysfunctional - are more interested in currently smearing him Bulls style in the media. 


The "solution" for Jimmy Butler is for him to rejoin a functional / successful NBA franchise that isn't interested in smearing him. Or perhaps recreating a Thibs-style winning NBA environment. Sadly, that may not the GarPaxBerg Bulls.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> Butler wasn't responsible for getting Thibs fired. You know that. That is just flat out cracker jacks. Management poisoned the environment. Everyone was sick of it by the end of the season, Butler included, and wasn't immune to the constant management drumbeat / smear of "Thibs is the problem."
> 
> You know the front office smeared Thibs in the press and Jen Swansoned a couple guys against working 100% anymore. And the team suffered for it. What was Noah's reward? Getting benched by GarPax's Hoiberg.
> 
> ...


LOL, everyone you have dinner with is someone you want to be your boss. I don't even know where to start with that.

http://nba.nbcsports.com/2015/12/29/report-jimmy-butler-was-ready-for-bulls-to-fire-tom-thibodeau/

http://www.hngn.com/articles/164719...-butler-wanted-tom-thibodeau-to-get-fired.htm

http://www.complex.com/sports/2015/05/three-bulls-starters-ripped-tom-thibodeau-before-he-was-fired

Butler was one of the players training halfway across the country because he couldn't stomach more Thibs over the summer. He was supposedly one of the biggest supporters of his ouster. You don't think the best player on the team wanting the coach gone helped enable GarPax to can him? Particularly when he was a FA the Bulls wanted to re-sign? Mmmkay.

Butler may be happy to run right back into Thibs' arms now after a year of Holberg. Perhaps he's come to regret it, but it seems evident he was instrumental in his firing.

I understand, though. In your world, all Bulls problems must emanate exclusively from the FO, so you'll just reject these facts out of hand.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> Butler was one of the players training halfway across the country because he couldn't stomach more Thibs over the summer. He was supposedly one of the biggest supporters of his ouster. You don't think the best player on the team wanting the coach gone helped enable GarPax to can him? Particularly when he was a FA the Bulls wanted to re-sign? Mmmkay.
> 
> Butler may be happy to run right back into Thibs' arms now after a year of Holberg. Perhaps he's come to regret it, but it seems evident he was instrumental in his firing.
> 
> I understand, though. In your world, all Bulls problems must emanate exclusively from the FO, so you'll just reject these facts out of hand.


LOL, yes, the Bulls media machine was more than happy to leak those Butler stories months after the Bulls front office decided to smear the top 3 in the NBA head coach during a season where the Bulls had a realistic shot to make the NBA Finals. (how does the results of exit interviews make their way into the press anyway?) The front office had decided to fire Thibs long, long before. They then got busy with the work of poisoning the environment and some of the players against the head coach.

One year later, the Paxson led front office has taken the team out of the playoffs and into NBA irrelevancy.

Dysfunctional. 

A pretty awful front office, don't you think? 

LOL. Paxson.

If he decided to leave the loving embrace of Uncle Jerry, what kind of offer to you think he would get on the open NBA market?

Hint: Not a very good one, if any.

We just saw how the open NBA market rewarded Thibs.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> LOL, yes, the Bulls media machine was more than happy to leak those Butler stories months after the Bulls front office decided to smear the top 3 in the NBA head coach during a season where the Bulls had a realistic shot to make the NBA Finals. (how does the results of exit interviews make their way into the press anyway?) The front office had decided to fire Thibs long, long before. They then got busy with the work of poisoning the environment and some of the players against the head coach.
> 
> One year later, the Paxson led front office has taken the team out of the playoffs and into NBA irrelevancy.
> 
> ...



Oh, we both agree that the Bulls FO classlessly trashed Thibs on the way out. I'm not going to fight that point. It was petty and stupid. Thibs did some of the same through his surrogates, but that doesn't mean I want to see the FO doing that.

As I've said repeatedly, I'd be A-OK with this FO getting fired. The only point I was arguing is I do not believe the FO is smearing Butler right now. They may not always comport themselves well, but they are smart enough not to try to diminish the market value of someone they might want to trade. The reason they could trash Thibs is there was no downside to doing so (other than looking like jerks).

I don't care even a little about what John Paxson's market value as an executive would be. 

And good for Thibs. I hope he succeeds.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> As I've said repeatedly, I'd be A-OK with this FO getting fired. The only point I was arguing is I do not believe the FO is smearing Butler right now. They may not always comport themselves well, but they are smart enough not to try to diminish the market value of someone they might want to trade. The reason they could trash Thibs is there was no downside to doing so (other than looking like jerks).


If these were people interested in winning #1 and not job preservation #1 , that's a totally rational way to think about things.

This Bulls front office is not that way, IMO. They are prepping the Chicago market for Butler's departure if this continues. They won't have a player ripping their (bad so far) coach in public and not toeing the line. 

They did the same with Rose when he wasn't coming back from his knee injury fast enough. Leaks on medical data and "cleared to play" were the story of the day / week / month. Did that diminish Rose's value? Sure, but its not about value maximization #1 .


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Truth be told they have been doing this for over a decade

And how much did they get for Jamal Crawford again?


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> If these were people interested in winning #1 and not job preservation #1 , that's a totally rational way to think about things.
> 
> This Bulls front office is not that way, IMO. They are prepping the Chicago market for Butler's departure if this continues. They won't have a player ripping their (bad so far) coach in public and not toeing the line.
> 
> They did the same with Rose when he wasn't coming back from his knee injury fast enough. Leaks on medical data and "cleared to play" were the story of the day / week / month. Did that diminish Rose's value? Sure, but its not about value maximization #1 .



Now GarPax are expertly prepping the Chicago market for Butler's departure by having him be the Bulls' representative at the draft lottery. Dastardly!


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

jnrjr79 said:


> Now GarPax are expertly prepping the Chicago market for Butler's departure by having him be the Bulls' representative at the draft lottery. Dastardly!



Terrible job by GarPax taking the #3 team in the east from last season and running it into the lottery.

Have not read any negative Butler stories in the media for a spell. Looks like the smear is off for the time being. Maybe they are finally realizing, like you said, its not a very good idea to destroy an asset you are trying to dump. Or maybe they are just basically rudderless.

Sadly, the Bulls are now stuck in the miserable NBA middle. 

Let's hope GarPaxBerg can right the ship next season.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

K4E said:


> Terrible job by GarPax taking the #3 team in the east from last season and running it into the lottery.
> 
> Have not read any negative Butler stories in the media for a spell. Looks like the smear is off for the time being. Maybe they are finally realizing, like you said, its not a very good idea to destroy an asset you are trying to dump. Or maybe they are just basically rudderless.
> 
> ...


truth be told I am not sure they can do much for next season.

since they are apparently keeping their leadership its probably in their best interest to establish their head coach's principles which means revamping with young players best suited for a faster pace of game.

that in itself will account for a dip in the on court product and if they are keeping jimmy they have to give him a legit chance to lead which means they have to jettison rose and noah.

rose because of the shadow he cast and noah because he clearly refuses and dismisses what butler is trying to do.

personally I think the smart play is to trade jimmy , get as much as you can and rebuild properly ....in 13 years under this new regime, I simply find that scenario unlikely , they would rather be a middling team that makes the playoffs then a team that takes chances to be a true title contender but perhaps misses the playoffs for a few years


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Hire Stephen Silas as coaching specialist.

He graduated from Brown University with a double major in Organizational Behavior and Management and in Sociology. That's what a dysfunctional organization needs.


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