# Latrell Sprewell Vs. Keith Van Horn



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

*Letrell Sprewell Vs. Keith Van Horn*

its about a quarter into the season, so we have to see whats happening. First lets look at the numbers:

Van horns
PPG- 14.5 
RPG- 6.4 
APG- 1.5
SPG- 1.05
BPG- .32
TO- 3.2
PF- 3.4
FG%- 39.0
3ptFG%- 22.4

Spree
PPG- 17.9
RPG- 4.5
APG- 3.9
SPG- 1.45
BPG- .23
TO- 2.27
PF- 1.4
FG%- 42.9
3ptFG%- 27.2

Van Horn is the better rebounder, but with those rebounds come a terrible field goal percentage, and a horrendous turnover rate (7th in the league in TO's per game). Besides the numbers, Keiths defense is terrible, he cant guard taller small forwards,he cant guard smaller small forwards, basically he cant guard anyone. unfortunately for us, we thought we would be getting a player who shoots a better percentage then Sprewell did last year,but instead it has been completely different. Van horn is shooting 39 percent compared to 48 percent last year.

So what do YOU think?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Van Horn was acquired before Deke was in the picture. There often would have been times where Thomas would play at C, and KVH at his natural PF, but with Deke grabbing boards, Van Horn's rebounding contribution has not been as necessary as it previously would have been.

Let's not forget that KVH has battled ankle problems either, though. He started the season off with a bang, but ever since his ankle problems, he's kind of lost the intensity and demeanor.


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## Jmonty580 (Jun 20, 2003)

^^^ I agree with Rashandi on the ankle comment. Beofre the ankle injury he was playing very agressive and was looking like a good trade. Now he is very timid and will take time to get back to his pre ankle injury self. Shouldnt take to long, I'll give him another two or three games to get out of his funk. As far as shooting as gone, I've been really disappointed because Houston still has to carry this team on his back. If Houston doesnt show then Anderson has to show, KVH's best outing was his first game and he's been slowly withering away after that showing. Hes plain and simple got to shoot a better percentage. Its still to early to say whos getting the better of this trade but by the half mark, if both players can stay healthy we should be able to make a better assesment. I can see the potentail in KVH and he plays to that level at times, but hes got to get more consistent.


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## NYCbballFan (Jun 8, 2003)

Houston should get together with Marbury, Kidd and Iverson to commiserate about Keith Van Horn's reliability as a featured scorer.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

What would they gripe about?

Marbury was a bigger problem in Jersey than Van Horn was.

With Kidd, Van Horn was 2nd on the team in scoring, trailing Kenyon Martin by 0.1. It was one of the most balanced scoring squads ever.

With Iverson, Van Horn raised his FG% by a mere 50 points.


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## Knicks Junkie (Aug 21, 2003)

I think the main reason people hate on Van Horn is because he was the second pick of the 1997 NBA Draft, and the first pick that year was Tim Duncan. It is hard to live up to that billing.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Then it went Chauncey Billups, Antonio Daniels, Tony Battie and Ron thank god they are still letting me play in this league Mercer.

Anyone who gripes about his draft order but read up.


My problem with Keith is the inconsistency that I knew about, and the turnovers. The way in which he turns the ball over really bugs me. So many times it's a weak pass or he has the ball slapped or stripped from him like he is to week to hold on to it. 

Then when it happens you usually see him chase the guy for two steps then stop and admonish himself.


I can't stand that type of attitude, Keith, when someone strips the balls follow them all the way down, if you can catch them wrap them up something fierce. 

If you can't catch them, stick to them the rest of the game like a fly on **** and make sure they know that if someone takes your ball they've got an angry wolf snapping at their heels for the rest of the night.


Quit the pity party and just play.


Latrell for all his refusal to practice, and crappy work ethic, always made his presence known. Keith seems very content to fade into obscurity. That's why I can't stand him.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Also,

Bench Van Horn, put Dyess at the 3. Activate Sweetney from the IR and see what he can do in a back up role.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Van Horn should be coming off the bench...period..I liked the trade but am flat out wrong,though in fairness,he has been injured....If Mcdyss stays healthy as well has Houston,there are your 2 go to guys..mcdyss on the inside,houston on the outside..

The other starters should then be more of role players...Deke provides shot blocking and defense,hopefully we will get a point guard(Williams) who can penetrate and break down the D,and our small foward should be a slasher quick foward who can play tuff D..That aint Van Horn...He is far better suited to coming off the bench with Thomas,as he now becomes a focal point of the offense as Dyss takes a breather...


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> I think the main reason people hate on Van Horn is because he was the second pick of the 1997 NBA Draft, and the first pick that year was Tim Duncan. It is hard to live up to that billing.


I don't think so. It's not like anybody else from that draft is all that much better.

1. Tim Duncan
2. Keith Van Horn
3. Chauncey Billups
4. Antonio Daniels
5. Tony Battie
6. Ron Mercer
7. Tim Thomas
8. Adonal Foyle
9. Tracy McGrady
10. Danny Fortson
11. Tariq Abdul Wahad
12. Austin Croshere
13. Derek Anderson
14. Maurice Taylor
15. Kelvin Cato

It's not like the draft was chock full of talent. Van Horn is still one of the top 5 players in the draft, not bad since 2 of the players are bonafide superstars.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> My problem with Keith is the inconsistency that I knew about, and the turnovers. The way in which he turns the ball over really bugs me. So many times it's a weak pass or he has the ball slapped or stripped from him like he is to week to hold on to it.


The reason he's having all those turnosvers is because he's being forced to handle the ball, something he's never really had to do before. He's got the handle of a power forward, not a small forward.

I secretly wish the Knicks had drated Lampe 9th and Luke Walton 30th, Walton would have been a great fit on this team.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

i actually wanted lampe, anyone at 30 , and marcus at 39 but thats just me...

if hes turning the ball over because of his handles,shouldnt he at least practice? or is his 93 million dollar contract telling him otherwise?

Remember last year Kenyon martin couldnt shoot for his life,and this year hes making that 19 footer consistently. I dont see why a young guy like Keith cant work on any part of his game.

also,what about keiths lazy passes that lead to turnovers,or wen he gets blocked by smaller players (which has happened numerous times this year). He was supposed to make mismatches at SF,but if hes getting blocked by them...hes flat out worthless

and he was injured????he sprained his ankle in practice. Allan Houstons been playing through all types of injuries that are more severe than van horns,but hes still playing great.

also,van horn seems to love getting into foul trouble. While its good to see him play more aggressively, alot of his fouls are from stupid reach ins when players drive on him. This gets him out of rythym, which also leads to poor shooting. We might as well of kept letrell if we wanted an inconsistent scorer with terrible percentages. One of the things we thought we were getting with keith was a high field goal percentage....oh well.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

After seeing Kirk and Kaman and Wade Gone, I wanted Hayes, or Lampe. After we nabbed Lampe at 30 I wanted Sopho, real bad. 


As a Knicks fan I am used to seeing my team draft players I have no interest in.


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## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

SPREWELL WINS THIS THING ALREADY....


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> if hes turning the ball over because of his handles,shouldnt he at least practice? or is his 93 million dollar contract telling him otherwise?


Who says he hasn't? Handle can't be learned over night. If it could, then we'd see centers doing crossovers. It's not just handle, but his passing abiliity. He's never had to set up other players. He is really ill-suited to the SF position, and it annoys me that teams have forced him down this route. He was a PF until the Nets drafted Kenyon Martin. Even while starting at SF though, he still played like a PF. Now he's really trying to play like a SF, and it's not working. On this team he just might be better off the bench because that would allow him to get more time at PF once Thomas is traded. Problem is they made him lose weight to play SF, so now he might be to weak to handle PFs as well as he used to.



> Remember last year Kenyon martin couldnt shoot for his life,and this year hes making that 19 footer consistently. I dont see why a young guy like Keith cant work on any part of his game.


Kenyon Martin was always a decent shooter. He had 15 threes in his 2nd season. It's probably the main thing he has worked on over his whole career, and it's one of the reasons he reminds me a bit of Barkley.


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## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

lets be serious, spree is the better player. so what if van horn has more boards, the wolves already have the best rebounder in the game!!! spree is more consistent, better when under pressure, better shooter, need i say more. if anything it should be glenn robinson or keith van horn.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> lets be serious, spree is the better player. so what if van horn has more boards, the wolves already have the best rebounder in the game!!!


Van Horn is younger.



> spree is more consistent


Nothing could be further from the truth.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

of course they cant be learned overnight, and no martin was never a decent shooter. His jumpshot last year was a joke. he probably put a LOT of work on it in the offseason. 

when Kidd came to the nets, Van Horn hardly played like a power forward, all i remember him doing was spotting up for open threes...and now he cant even make a three.

van horns only good offensive strength is catching and shooting, and in the post hes okay.he definitely cant put the ball on the floor, yet he keeps doing it. This has got something to do with the coaching. you have to play to your players strengths, not their weaknesses. If Keith could score more points with allen iverson on his team rather than Houston, something is up. and dropping from 48 percent to 39?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> of course they cant be learned overnight, and no martin was never a decent shooter. His jumpshot last year was a joke. he probably put a LOT of work on it in the offseason.


He's always been a notch below Kurt Thomas from mid-range, even now.



> when Kidd came to the nets, Van Horn hardly played like a power forward, all i remember him doing was spotting up for open threes...and now he cant even make a three.


He was only 101-293 with the Nets, that's .345. He's only a .343 3pt shooter for his career, people make the 3 a bigger part of his game than he really is. A lot of his baskets for NY have been tip ins or points on offensive rebounds, and considering he's averaged 2 offensive boards per game in his career, I'd think that this isn't the only season he's done this.



> If Keith could score more points with allen iverson on his team rather than Houston, something is up. and dropping from 48 percent to 39?


That one's easy. Allen Iverson is obviously better at setting up players than Allan Houston.

Van Horn only averaged 1.8 turnovers when he played with Jason Kidd. 2.0 when he played with Allen Iverson. Take the ball out of his hands and it's not a problem.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

sorry guys,analyse all you want,come up with all the nifty stats you want...the proof is in the pudding..Van Horn is NOT a good small foward...He cant carry Sprees jock..And its not my opinion,it is Coach Chaneys as well...Chaney always played Spree in the 4th quarter..KVH is getting benched in the 4th and will probably continure to...

Aint no comparison...Vab horn is no Spree


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## Zuca (Dec 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think so. It's not like anybody else from that draft is all that much better.
> ...



Why Grizzlies drafted Daniels instead of McGrady? Daniels sucked, and McGrady don't resign with Raptors.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> sorry guys,analyse all you want,come up with all the nifty stats you want...the proof is in the pudding..Van Horn is NOT a good small foward...He cant carry Sprees jock..And its not my opinion,it is Coach Chaneys as well...Chaney always played Spree in the 4th quarter..KVH is getting benched in the 4th and will probably continure to...
> 
> Aint no comparison...Vab horn is no Spree



Well I don't know about his jock carrying abilities, However, I want people to make a note that Van Horn isn't as *** as say Lee Nailon or someone else, and while he is not as talented as Spree, it certainly isn't making a huge impact on our W/L record, so there really isn't a need to get to bent out of shape.

Spree never was a small forward in the first place.


For the record I never liked spree. I hated how he refused to practice, refused to get in sync with other players except during games. He was only slightly less inconsistent than Van Horn, and his ****ty attitude regarding authority and work would probably have rubbed off on a few of our rookies.

He wasn't a team player, he certainly gave more effort, was a better defender, and was less turnover prone, but he wasn't helping this franchise that much. He also helped setup houston, which is something Van Horn is unable or refuses to do. I think that's a huge problem for our team.


In my opinion the only real reason to get up in arms over this trade is that we absorbed a bigger contract.


I don't miss spree.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Bigger meaning it was only one year longer. They make equal money. And as it's been said, as long as the contract isn't 6 years, when it ends doesn't really make a difference. So even the contract isn't worth getting bent out of shape over.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

what do you guys smoke????

we got Deke,that should be an improvement....

The only significant change is spree is gone and KVH is in...

we played above .500 ball last year with Spree...Now we are playing .333 ball without him...Chaney benches KVH in the 4th..

WAKE UP...Stop looking at meaningless stats...

Spree made us a winner..He had fire and desire,and he was no small foward..But he was a gamer and showed up!!!

Does anyone look at our won lost record????


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Does anyone look at our won lost record????


Probably about as many people as there are that look at our schedule.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> what do you guys smoke????
> 
> we got Deke,that should be an improvement....
> ...



Yes, have you seen how the east has improved? 


> we played above .500 ball last year with Spree...Now we are playing .333 ball without him...Chaney benches KVH in the 4th..



Granted we are not winning as much but we were 37 -45 last year not above .500 ball. Who gives a flying crap if we win 7 less games.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

we started the season last year like 0-8,when sprewell had his hand injury. when he came back we played .500 ball


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## NYCbballFan (Jun 8, 2003)

Van Horn is a tweener, not strong/tough enough for PF and too slow for SF, yet unable to consistently exploit his size advantage against SFs or a quickness advantage against PFs. He's also a classic case of a player whose game flourished at a lower level in college but hasn't translated into the same level of success in the NBA. 

Van Horn plays EXACTLY the same game that he did in college, but his limitations simply don't allow him to do the same things in the NBA. The dribble drives that worked in college are being stopped by quicker NBA defenders and his post-ups are being stopped by stronger NBA forwards. He hasn't adjusted his game except to change the mix to shoot more perimeter shots. The only reason he's known as a shooter is because that's the only part of his game that's ever achieved a level of consistency.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

"Yes, have you seen how the east has improved? "

with the recent outbreak of sarcasm,i dont know whether to take this statement seriously..

The east has improved?????

you must be joking..what sport are you talking about??


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