# Vin Baker Contract Termination Countdown



## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

So how many games has it been since Baker was suspended? I read in the paper that when it reaches 10, the Celtics have the right to terminate his contract.


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## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

Terminate his contract vs his contract not counting against the cap are two different things.

It will happen. Ainge is such a great father he will send one of his family members to the trash compactor as soon as he can.
Family. lol I laugh everytime I hear that word out of someone from the Celtics organization.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

We know that lastlaugh. We really don't need another diatribe against Ainge. If you want to start "I hate Danny Ainge" threads, please do so to your heart's content. It's a free country.

So, does anyone know how many games it has been since Baker was suspended.


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## rowdyness (Jan 21, 2004)

Pro basketball is not a "family" its a business. Everyone knows that. Besides its not like Vin has been around for 5 years or something. He has been a Celtic for about 1 year. I doint count the time he has been in Betty Ford clinics as time with the team. Get rid of him. He is a cancer and a major distraction for the team. He makes 15 mil a year or something like that. Screw him. If he is not a professional and cannot show loyalty to his teammates then get rid of him. I think its 6-7 games left on the countdown.


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## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rowdyness</b>!
> Pro basketball is not a "family" its a business. Everyone knows that. Besides its not like Vin has been around for 5 years or something. He has been a Celtic for about 1 year. I doint count the time he has been in Betty Ford clinics as time with the team. Get rid of him. He is a cancer and a major distraction for the team. He makes 15 mil a year or something like that. Screw him. If he is not a professional and cannot show loyalty to his teammates then get rid of him. I think its 6-7 games left on the countdown.


The family comments came from Ainge and Wyc Grousbeck. They used the words family not me.


Big John
You can kiss Ainge's *** I can call him on the two faced idiot he is.
I didn't agree with your Jim and Walter are to blame tirades but I didn't stop you from saying them.

No masking. ---agoo


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

I looked it up. Baker was suspended on January 23, before the Washington game. That means 3 down, 7 to go. Game number 10 is against the Bulls on February 12.


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## bballin (Jun 3, 2003)

is there any way you can put someone on ignore?

Will the C's be able to keep him suspended for 7 games?


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## Anima (Jun 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bballin</b>!
> is there any way you can put someone on ignore?


Yeah, go to user cp then edit ignore list and type (or cut and paste) the name of the user you want to ignore. Then all you have to do is hit "update list".


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## h180ys (Nov 10, 2003)

If Vinny's contract is terminated, will we get any cap space? If yes, how much is our salary next season?


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## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bballin</b>!
> is there any way you can put someone on ignore??








i wuz wondering the same thing cuz some people jus come on here to claim to be fans and just point out mistakes in this team and never complimernt them. No need for people like that, it's a waste to read.


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## bballin (Jun 3, 2003)

exactly- i'm sick of reading the same post over and over and over again, just worded slightly differently. 

Now however, lets here it for the ignore function!


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## el_raulin (Jun 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>h180ys</b>!
> If Vinny's contract is terminated, will we get any cap space? If yes, how much is our salary next season?


I read the other day from Peter May, that even if we terminate Baker's contract, we probably won't be players in the FA market. We probably will only use the MLE. So, from that I think if the contract is terminated it comes off the books. If it is a buyout, it will count against the cap for the following two years (which is the remaining money Baker has).

Sometimes, I just don't understand how this salary cap thing works. Specially when you have teams over the cap signing players... (yes I know, it's all about the business and avoiding luxury tax).

Here are some quotes, and the link follows

"But be advised that even if the team terminates Baker's contract because he failed to comply with his alcohol treatment program it does not mean the Celtics can suddenly put a free agent like Kobe Bryant on their radar screen this summer. " 

"If Baker's money comes off the books, the Celtics' payroll will be $44 million-$45 million next season. With the salary cap expected to come in at around $45 million, *that means the Celtics will be in no position to be far enough under the cap -- or even under it at all -- to go out and sign any marquee free agents with available cap space*."

Advantages:

1) If there is a luxury tax this year the Celtics won't be affected.

2)The Celtics have more freedom to use the midlevel exception

3)The Celtics would be in a good position to resign their own players (Mark Blount, etc.)

http://www.boston.com/sports/basket..._could_mean_considerable_savings_for_celtics/

'http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2004/01/24/decision_could_mean_considerable_savings_for_celtics/

having trouble to get the link on... but it is correct... you can copy and paste it without leaving spaces

There u have it

Another good link from the herald is

http://celtics.bostonherald.com/celtics/celtics.bg?articleid=312


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

I hate to break it to you all but if the Celts try to terminate Vin's contract the players Union is ready to put up a HUGE fight because as they well know there are a LOT of alchoholics in the league (they just don't admit to it like Vinny did) and the players union does not want it to be a precedent. With a fight like that it would take a couple years and by then his contact would have been over anyhow, so please stop thinking we're gonna get something here because we are not.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

No one knows what will happen if Baker's contract is terminated. There are no precedents and the CBA does not directly address the issue. The Raptors terminated Nate Huffman's contract last year but that case is still in arbitration.

Go take a look at the post I started over on the "Salaries and the CBA" forum. The experts over there can't answer the questions asked-- and neither can Peter May. It's uncharted territory.


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## el_raulin (Jun 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>whiterhino</b>!
> I hate to break it to you all but if the Celts try to terminate Vin's contract the players Union is ready to put up a HUGE fight because as they well know there are a LOT of alchoholics in the league (they just don't admit to it like Vinny did) and the players union does not want it to be a precedent. With a fight like that it would take a couple years and by then his contact would have been over anyhow, so please stop thinking we're gonna get something here because we are not.


Just in case, I was just trying to answer a post. I'm not saying we are going to terminate Vin's contract, just assuming that case how will it affect the C's.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*T-minus seven games and counting....*

As per league policy, Vin will be out a minimum of two more games, and then he is eligible to return, but cannot return until cleared by league doctors.

So he will be out five, but it's those next five that really matter as far as the C's are concerned.

As for clearing the money, yes it does do a lot for the Celtics. Maybe not next year in terms of big free agents, but definitely down the road. It would bring them luxury tax rebate money (if there is a tax), and would be a tremendous weight off the shoulders of the franchise.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: T-minus seven games and counting....*



> As for clearing the money, yes it does do a lot for the Celtics. Maybe not next year in terms of big free agents, but definitely down the road. It would bring them luxury tax rebate money (if there is a tax), and would be a tremendous weight off the shoulders of the franchise.


No one knows how any of this will work. You are just guessing.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*No, John, I am not*

I am not going to speculate as to the plausibility of the Celtics' case, but if it goes 10 the Celtics will try to terminate his contract using the "unfit to play" clause.

Whether that is successful or not is anyone's guess, as you astutely point out, but if they are successful, then it will have a very positive impact on the fiscal and basketball health of the Celtics in the future. That's all I am saying.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: No, John, I am not*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> I am not going to speculate as to the plausibility of the Celtics' case, but if it goes 10 the Celtics will try to terminate his contract using the "unfit to play" clause.
> 
> Whether that is successful or not is anyone's guess, as you astutely point out, but if they are successful, then it will have a very positive impact on the fiscal and basketball health of the Celtics in the future. That's all I am saying.


Yes, we are in agreement. My biggest fear is David Stern. He has alot of power, and historically he has done everything he can to screw the Celtics.

Fortunately, this is a huge case for the NBA owners as well. The owners are absolutely fed up with giving long term guaranteed contracts to players who don't perform. Baker is just the most obvious example. This is going to be a HUGE issue in the negotiations for the next CBA, and it may even rise to the level of a strike/lockout issue.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Yep, Huge Ramifications*

In any other profession, Baker would have been shown the door. He has had these problems for years. Think any corporation paying somebody $13 mil per year and counting heavily on them for the success of the company would give somebody 4-5 chances? No way. 

The league may have to send a message before it loses the 12 fans that still watch the NBA.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> Terminate his contract vs his contract not counting against the cap are two different things.
> 
> It will happen. Ainge is such a great father he will send one of his family members to the trash compactor as soon as he can.
> Family. lol I laugh everytime I hear that word out of someone from the Celtics organization.


How is Danny the bad one in this? Baker had many chances. It's not Danny's fault. He's doing what's best for the team. What do you want him to say?

"I hated Vin. I couldn't wait to terminate his contract."


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

After last night's loss in Indiana, Baker's suspension has reached 5 games. We are halfway there and counting.


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## h180ys (Nov 10, 2003)

What will happen really to Vinny? Some say he will be terminated but some say it can't happen. I really hope he's terminated not bought out.


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## theBirdman (Jun 20, 2003)

Baker's suspension has reached 8 games! Just two more to go!

What I want to know is what does contract termination mean for our salary cap situation? Does anybody know?


I found the answer to how buy-outs affect a team's salary cap: 

The agreed-upon buy-out amount is included in the team salary instead of the salary called for in the contract. If the player had more than one season left on his contract, then the buy-out money is distributed among the seasons in proportion to the original salary. For example, say a player had three seasons remaining on his contract, with salaries of $10 million, $11 million and $12 million. The player and team agree to a buyout of $15 million. The $15 million is therefore charged to the team salary over the three seasons. Since the original contract had $33 million left to be paid, and $10 million is 30.3% of $33 million, 30.3% of the $15 million buyout, or $4.545 million, is included in the team salary in the first season following the buyout. Likewise, 33.33% of $15 million, or $5 million, is included in the team salary in the second season, and 36.36% of $15 million, or $5.455 million, is included in the team salary in the third season. Note that this is true even if the player is paid all of his buy-out money in a lump sum. The distribution of the buy-out money itself is a matter of individual negotiation.


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## goNBAjayhawks (May 3, 2003)

If we kept him wouldnt he be a pretty big expiring contract we could shop when that does happen? No Matter how much money we have to offer i doubt we could get a good FA, we'll get players through trades and the draft and let go of the oldies so cap doesnt really matter as long as we dont hit the luxury tax. 
All those we dont cap space to do, so if we were to keep it we'd prob have the same team and one big piece of trade bait.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

A huge terminated contract right now is better than a huge expiring contract two years from now lol.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

*Bad News*

ESPN is reporting that Nate Huffman won his arbitration case against the Raptors.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=1730729

This is not good news in the event that the Celtics attempt to terminate Vin Baker's contract, although obviously the two situations are different.

It will be intresting to see how this affects Toronto's cap situation. I read somewhere that Huffman's money was taken off the cap at the time of termination. Will it be put back on? If so, how?


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## theBirdman (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> ESPN is reporting that Nate Huffman won his arbitration case against the Raptors.
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=1730729
> ...


Yes, the two situations are different that is why I am not really worried about this. 

Like the article says, Raptors didnt have the grounds to terminate Huffmans contract: 
"Had they won in arbitration, the Raptors could have established a new precedent for teams seeking to void guaranteed contracts based on pre-existing medical conditions."

We on the other hand do, if Baker is ruled unfit to play by the doctors.
"Under the terms of a standard NBA contract, a contract can only be terminated if the player is guilty of malfeasance or gross misconduct or deemed unfit to play."

Of course, the problem is that with arbitration you never know how long it will take and how that affects our cap situation in the meantime. 

But I am not too optimistic about this, because it is a new theritory and I cant imagine a tougher opponent than Players Association. They will do everything they can to fight this contract termination!


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

So isn't Baker's alcoholism a "medical condition" too? It's a disability under the ADA. I'm sure the players' association lawyers will make that argument.


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## theBirdman (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> So isn't Baker's alcoholism a "medical condition" too? It's a disability under the ADA. I'm sure the players' association lawyers will make that argument.


Yes, but we are not going to void guaranteed contract based on *pre-existing* medical conditions." We wont build our case on the fact that we didnt know that he was an alcoholic. 
I guess, we are going to go with the "unfit to play" clause and not "not knowing his pre-existing medical conditions" clause that doesnt even exist. So, we have something to build our case on.

What I am wondering: Baker has a clause in his contract that was added this year and says that if he reaches strike 4 the contract can be terminated, right? So if Vin signed it (obviously he did) then we have a strong case. The PA will probably argue that assessment of Vins condition wasnt right and that he is fit to play. That is the biggest problem. We have to show that he is unfit if we want to win this, IMO. So it is probably all in the doctors hands.

On the other hand, do we even have to go with the unfit to play clause? Because Vin has a clause in his contract that says the contract can be terminated if he doesnt go along with the program (both parties agreed on this). So if this clause is activated the contract avtomaticly gets terminated and there is no need for arbitration. 
Of course, PA might also argue the validity of the added clause in Vins contract. Although he signed it they may say that the clause is in collision with the NBA agreement and therefore isnt valid("Under the terms of a standard NBA contract, a contract *can only be terminated* if the player is guilty of malfeasance or gross misconduct or deemed unfit to play."). Now, I dont know if that is the case but I am pretty sure PA will do everything it can.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*One more game*

If Vinnie doesn't get cleared by doctors by the next game, Thursday vs. Chicago, then the Celtics can take control and may try to terminate the contract.


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## JBone4eva (Oct 31, 2002)

WoW thats crucial.... can't wait til thursday.. as much I like and respect Vin.. I want his contract gone.. I think he needs to retire and look at his life in a new perspective before stuff get really serious..


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> BOSTON -- Vin Baker is expected to miss his 10th consecutive game Thursday night, a mark that could allow the Boston Celtics to terminate a contract that was to pay him $35 million more over the next 2½ years.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1732998


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## jbs (May 4, 2003)

http://celtics.bostonherald.com/celtics/celtics.bg?articleid=365
The gloves are off and this will certainly be a fight, Goodwin is a tough agent.


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