# Kwame listed at 270lbs in lakers.com!!!



## GuYoM (Jun 2, 2005)

all is in the title


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## Drk Element (Nov 10, 2004)

How much was he before? 265?


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## mjm1 (Aug 22, 2005)

Better hope thats muscle.


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## DaBruins (Jul 30, 2003)

mjm1 said:


> Better hope thats muscle.


have you seen Kwame? He's all muscle.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Now he'll be even more of a statue.


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> Now he'll be even more of a statue.


With butterfingers!


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## Steez (Nov 28, 2002)

"Kobe I am open!"


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Steez said:


> "Kobe I am open!"


 :rofl: That is a nice one.

So, 5 pounds will make a huge difference in some peoples opinions


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## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

Well he is 7 ft tall. He was massive last year too. HE is just a big dude with an unfortunate catching deficiency and an inability to make layups. Why doesn't he just slam the ball in everyones face. He is HUGE!


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## spiraling (Feb 16, 2003)

5lb of muscle maybe atleast he's working out. 5lb of fat = lazy bumm


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## Unique (Apr 13, 2005)

Steez said:


> "Kobe I am open!"


:rofl:


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## grimmone (Aug 25, 2006)

I wonder what his bodyfat is?


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## West44 (Jun 29, 2005)

While the statue is funny as hell and we'll no doubt see it in the future, the thread itself is a waste. First, Kwame's a big boy who I thought was over 270 last yr. Second, guys Kwame's size can lose 5-10 lbs in one game. IMO - we're going to see the best Kwame ever this yr.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

West44 said:


> While the statue is funny as hell and we'll no doubt see it in the future, the thread itself is a waste. First, Kwame's a big boy who I thought was over 270 last yr. Second, guys Kwame's size can lose 5-10 lbs in one game. IMO - we're going to see the best Kwame ever this yr.


I agree I think Kwame was a revelation last season to his teammates. They trust him now so he'll get more chances. Much to much is made of his fumbles of the ball he does catch it sometimes and the things he does well are overlooked. Yet the has done nothing Darko is all the rage nevermind the fact he can't score or defend and is light on boards other than that he's fine.


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

He was listed at 248 last year.


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## Ruff Draft (Nov 21, 2004)

I'd hope all that is muscle. I really want to see him succeed. However right now he is a laughing stock.


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## Pnack (Aug 23, 2005)

What if he just got fat?


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

jazzy1 said:


> Yet the has done nothing Darko is all the rage nevermind the fact he can't score or defend and is light on boards other than that he's fine.


Why do you just make stuff up?


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## Silk D (Feb 6, 2006)

Eternal said:


> He was listed at 248 last year.


no way he was under 260 last year. he was huge, and 270 is not out of the relm of possibility.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> Now he'll be even more of a statue.



:laugh:


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

Silk D said:


> no way he was under 260 last year. he was huge, and 270 is not out of the relm of possibility.



Well according to ESPN.com he was last year. I was creating a site for all the rosters, so I copied down everyone's weight etc., and I checked what it was, when I recorded it last year through RSS, and it was at 248.


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## Unique (Apr 13, 2005)

I doubt he can get much bigger... That would be crazy. Kwame has the body to dominate... Lets see if he does what Mihm did last year. Mihm's 1st season as a laker he had just as bad hands as Kwame did and if you dont belive me . Search last years game threads. This season Chris was no longer butterfinger Mihm.


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## ravor44 (Feb 26, 2005)

Hope its muscles..not fat...


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## JYD (Sep 3, 2002)

here is a pic of Kwame before last season


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## DaBruins (Jul 30, 2003)

XMATTHEWX said:


> I'd hope all that is muscle. I really want to see him succeed. However right now he is a laughing stock.


why do you say that? He played great for the last few months last year (disregarding the playoffs).


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Hairy Midget said:


> Why do you just make stuff up?


what has he done prove me wrong , what have I made up, he can suddenly play because he's not riding the pine anymore yeah okay.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

he needs better footwork, on both ends. i wish he'd learn better footwork.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

jazzy1 said:


> what has he done prove me wrong , what have I made up, he can suddenly play because he's not riding the pine anymore yeah okay.


You pretty much answered the question. He can suddenly play because he was suddenly given playing time.

<font color="red">We don't like name calling around here.


-BH</font>


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## SoCalfan21 (Jul 19, 2004)

grimmone said:


> I wonder what his bodyfat is?


27% is that bad?


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

BTW what happened to his arm?


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

LamarButler said:


> BTW what happened to his arm?



Cigerette burns from step dad.


However, I wouldnt be surprised if he is gaining weight on purpose. Theres no way he goes back to PF now. Phil would probably want him to gain a little more muscle to remain at the C.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

anyone got a close up pic of his hands? i'd like to see how small they really are, or whether it's just him not keeping an eye on the ball.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Hairy Midget said:


> You pretty much answered the question. He can suddenly play because he was suddenly given playing time. Not that hard to figure out you *******.


Calm down kid, the Magic suck.


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## Banjoriddim (Aug 14, 2004)

EHL said:


> Calm down kid, the Magic suck.


You are older brother of that dude who thinks Kwame is better than Gasol, damn, that must suck :curse:


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Hairy Midget said:


> You pretty much answered the question. He can suddenly play because he was suddenly given playing time. Not that hard to figure out you *******.


Okay let me get this 3 NBA head coaches don't give him substantial pt but yet he's better than Kwame . Name the big games he's had the stretches of solid play Kwame's had them and I can name a whole ton of them. 

Darko has talent but he can't play or hasn't played well to this point.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Banjoriddim said:


> You are older brother of that dude who thinks Kwame is better than Gasol, damn, that must suck :curse:


Say what? Gasol owns Kwame on so many levels it's not even worth discussing.


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

well...last season, he had the size, he got great position the majority of the time....he got the ball, but what he did with it was the problem, how many WIDE OPEN LAYUPS did he miss??? point blank???
maybe he needs to work on athleticism cuz he could have easily dunked like 90% of those, i dont dislike Kwame, me and im sure other Laker fans are gonna have to get used to him cuz he might be around a while...so he might as well progress....buuuut this 270 pounds thing hm... he might get position even more at ease now ...but it all still lies on whether he can finish around the hoooop!!!! :curse: :curse:


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## DaBruins (Jul 30, 2003)

ElMarroAfamado said:


> well...last season, he had the size, he got great position the majority of the time....he got the ball, but what he did with it was the problem, how many WIDE OPEN LAYUPS did he miss??? point blank???
> maybe he needs to work on athleticism cuz he could have easily dunked like 90% of those, i dont dislike Kwame, me and im sure other Laker fans are gonna have to get used to him cuz he might be around a while...so he might as well progress....buuuut this 270 pounds thing hm... he might get position even more at ease now ...but it all still lies on whether he can finish around the hoooop!!!! :curse: :curse:


he's fine. I'd much rather have Kwame playing a big majority of our center minutes than Mihm or Bynum. Plus i think Mihm/Bynum combo is better off the bench than a Kwame/Bynum combo. Mihm is older and more mature, he wont mind coming off the bench and playing solid. I dont trust Kwame off the bench just yet.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

SoCalfan21 said:


> 27% is that bad?



Is that a joke? I hope so... 27% is bad for a normal guy. Terrible for an athlete. I highly doubt he is anywhere near that percentage.

I definitely don't think he was his listed 248 last year, from what I saw. Dwight Howard was said to be around 260 last year and even though Kwame is a bit shorter he is a lot stockier, so around 260 for Kwame last year would be a possibility.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

27% :laugh:

Oliver Miller maybe.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Banjoriddim said:


> You are older brother of that dude who thinks Kwame is better than Gasol, damn, that must suck :curse:


no one thinks Kwame is better than gasol. so please lets give that a rest. he's just better than darko.
And the Magic are bad.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

DaBruins said:


> he's fine. I'd much rather have Kwame playing a big majority of our center minutes than Mihm or Bynum. Plus i think Mihm/Bynum combo is better off the bench than a Kwame/Bynum combo. Mihm is older and more mature, he wont mind coming off the bench and playing solid. I dont trust Kwame off the bench just yet.



I know I'm lame, but I still feel that Phil might try putting Mihm at the PF. He can shoot the ball fairly well, and probably bang well agaisnt other PF's as he is slightly better. 

Hell he might not even be injuried as much banging with a PF than bigger and stronger Centers.

I think Phil might experiment with Mihm at the 4, since he is a much better shooter than Kawme.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

jazzy1 said:


> no one thinks Kwame is better than gasol. so please lets give that a rest. he's just better than darko.
> And the Magic are bad.



At this point I'd take Eddy Curry or Tractor Trailer over Darko. Darko is over hyped trash. He has never done anything, will never do anything, and was a waste of a pick.

But hey, what do I know.. After four seasons the guy does average 3.0 ppg and 1.9rpg.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> At this point I'd take Eddy Curry or Tractor Trailer over Darko. Darko is over hyped trash. He has never done anything, will never do anything, and was a waste of a pick.
> 
> But hey, what do I know.. After four seasons the guy does average 3.0 ppg and 1.9rpg.


And that's why you're not a GM. Ignorance.


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## ravor44 (Feb 26, 2005)

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> 27% :laugh:
> 
> Oliver Miller maybe.


or Stanley Roberts? :biggrin:


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> At this point I'd Tractor Trailer over Darko. Darko is over hyped trash. He has never done anything, will never do anything, and was a waste of a pick.
> 
> But hey, what do I know.. After four seasons the guy does average 3.0 ppg and 1.9rpg.


I hope you're not serious.

Darko's 2.0 bpg within the stretch of 20+ games with Orlando was a vital promise glimpse of potential on what may come.


Dont criticize a foreign kid for not getting as much playing time on a championship team stacked with two All Stars playing the same position as his.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> I hope you're not serious.
> 
> Darko's 2.0 bpg within the stretch of 20+ games with Orlando was a vital promise glimpse of potential on what may come.
> 
> ...


what the heck does being foreign have to do with it. Not saying he could star on that team but he couldn't even push gimpy legged McDyess for pt. Thats bad when you go 2nd in the draft, make any excuse you want but 2 coaches didn't think he could help at all. Thas bad.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

a gimpy mcdyess is still pretty damn good.


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## Silk D (Feb 6, 2006)

I don't understand why anyone would compare Darko to Kwame up to this point. Darko has shown glimpses of being a good player, but that's all hypothetical. He hasn't actually DONE anything, nor is he guarenteed to do anything. at least Kwame has put together half a decent season.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

jazzy1 said:


> what the heck does being foreign have to do with it. Not saying he could star on that team but he couldn't even push gimpy legged McDyess for pt. Thats bad when you go 2nd in the draft, make any excuse you want but 2 coaches didn't think he could help at all. Thas bad.


Dont put the emphasis on him being a foreigner, that was'nt the point but rather look at the whole picture, try expanding your mindset a bit. He's what 18 y/o when drafted, he had very little knowledge in the game of basketball, he had potential...a huge one, thats why Detroit took a chance on a unknown like him. NO one expected him to play significant minutes immediately. 


Detroit was loaded with DPOY Ben Wallace and Rasheed in the frontcourt. For a championship contending team, veterans plays a LARGE role, thus you see Elden Campbell and Antonio McDyess logging in more minutes than him, its a given. Sure Both are "gimpy" as you stated in terms of age but both are also less likely to commit "rookie mistakes" something thats considered essential for team success in a higher level, furthermore those two have put in valuable numbers as Pistons.


Almost everyone agreed that the Pistons gave up on Darko too quickly, Im sure their kicking their head right now, more so when Ben Wallace left them unexpectedly and when Darko put up decent numbers within 20 minutes in Orlando ( 50% FG 7.6 ppg 4.1 rpg 2.0 bpg). Mind you those numbers were of significant contribution as Orlando went 14-6 in the stretch ( just in case you mention that those are "garbage numbers")


Larry Brown is a huge d*ck, he has his way of not playing rookies thoughout his history, so you cant really expect him to play Darko to begin with, if you think otherwise then you're probably thinking of Harry Drown, coach of the Sioux Falls Wachitaka. Flip Saunder's was also in a pressure of bringing back the Pistons to their championship glory, he cant afford to have a 3rd year player with less experience than Kwame to start playing on a elite squad.



Bottomline is this, Darko is a talented player, he runs the floor better than some big men who already got a starting job, he has range and he can effectively play in the post and seems to have a good shot selection , defensively? 2.0 bpg is nothing to sneeze at, and yet all these are only exposed 20 games late into the season last year. Im in no way saying that he is a savior and he's a superstar waiting to explode, given the chances and a different scenario, he has showed a glimpse of what he can do, providing he's given more minutes.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

afobisme said:


> a gimpy mcdyess is still pretty damn good.


Exactly, people here have selective memories...even late into the season against Miami last year, McDyess was playing great.


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

This thread is so off topic. :clown:


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

"Kwame Brown listed 270 pounds...."

:ttiwwp:


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## Pnack (Aug 23, 2005)

Kwame > Darko


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Dont put the emphasis on him being a foreigner, that was'nt the point but rather look at the whole picture, try expanding your mindset a bit. He's what 18 y/o when drafted, he had very little knowledge in the game of basketball, he had potential...a huge one, thats why Detroit took a chance on a unknown like him. NO one expected him to play significant minutes immediately.
> 
> 
> Detroit was loaded with DPOY Ben Wallace and Rasheed in the frontcourt. For a championship contending team, veterans plays a LARGE role, thus you see Elden Campbell and Antonio McDyess logging in more minutes than him, its a given. Sure Both are "gimpy" as you stated in terms of age but both are also less likely to commit "rookie mistakes" something thats considered essential for team success in a higher level, furthermore those two have put in valuable numbers as Pistons.
> ...



Very well stated argument better than some I've heard but its still wrong. 

iDarko is getting viewd now through revisionist glasses. he was the 2nd pick for what exactly, he was being viewed at like a Gasol who was a surprise as a good player almost immediatly. Now if you are correct and they KNEW AHEAD OF TIME that he was a project than why did they trade him. Because he couldn't play and by year 3 it had gotten old for a 2nd pick not to at least have cracked the rotation enough to get SOME playing time. So lets not act like he was getting snubbed by Brown or by Saunders/ When Saunders came in he said Darko would get a shot at playing and then Darko didn't warrant pt. So Dunars realized basically that darko had to go.

Bosh had only alittle more experience spending 1 year a college and maybe was worse off from a physical standpoint. I think he would have gotten some pt on that Pistons team he would have pushed the Wallace boys and McDyess for pt as he does when he plays them straight up now days because he has confidence, intensity and knowledge of the game. 

Then darko gets traded to orland a team headed straight to the lottery and he still doesn't get many minutes WHY probably because Brian Hill wasn't impressed either, coaches tend to believe it when other pro coaches even the dk Brown as you call it you know the hall Of famer thinks a guy can't compete. he had who battie in front of him . Yet he gets 20 minutes a game. So now Darko fans think in 20 minutes if it translated out to 48 minutes he'd average 20 a night with 5 blocks. 

You don't get annoited pt YOU EARN THEM so if he gets them he'll have earned them. Best thing I like about him is his shot blocking good length and good timing but thats it. his jumper is sketchy when he takes it he looks uncomfortable, in the post instead of getting the contact and leaning in he sort of glides his hook away from contact has no real go to move. 

he has talent but lacks the fire and intensity and the physical presence to mix it up.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

jazzy1 said:


> Very well stated argument better than some I've heard but its still wrong.
> 
> iDarko is getting viewd now through revisionist glasses. he was the 2nd pick for what exactly, he was being viewed at like a Gasol who was a surprise as a good player almost immediatly. Now if you are correct and they KNEW AHEAD OF TIME that he was a project than why did they trade him. Because he couldn't play and by year 3 it had gotten old for a 2nd pick not to at least have cracked the rotation enough to get SOME playing time. So lets not act like he was getting snubbed by Brown or by Saunders/ When Saunders came in he said Darko would get a shot at playing and then Darko didn't warrant pt. So Dunars realized basically that darko had to go.
> 
> ...


:cheers: 
:clap: 'Take a bow, sir' Your post warrents a standing ovation.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

Edit*** Jazzy1 summed it up better than me. Bravo.


:clap:


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

Hairy Midget said:


> And that's why you're not a GM. Ignorance.



I suppose you are a GM? Tell me then, when do you plan to start playing Darko, instead of telling us how good he can be one day.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

jazzy1 said:


> what the heck does being foreign have to do with it. Not saying he could star on that team but he couldn't even push gimpy legged McDyess for pt. Thats bad when you go 2nd in the draft, make any excuse you want but 2 coaches didn't think he could help at all. Thas bad.



2nd in the draft, and four seasons ago. HAHAHA. Give me a break. I love the whole "He was on a team of allstars" crap, in four seasons, surrounded by the best talent in the NBA, you think by now he'd be battling at least the backups for play time. He looked a little better this year, but still nothing more than a bench warmer. At the end of this season, this topic will still be around and people will still be making excuses for the trash.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

jazzy1 said:


> Darko is getting viewd now through revisionist glasses. he was the 2nd pick for what exactly, he was being viewed at like a Gasol who was a surprise as a good player almost immediatly.


You cant compare Gasol's situation to Darko, Gasol's resume before even entering or after his rookie season in the NBA was extensive at a young age. He had numerous recognitions and achievement in the FC Barcelona stage winning a couple of MVP awards and was dominating in the junior european league. He was making a whole lot of noise in the basketball scene to begin with. Furthermore, Gasol was given playing time on a expansion team...he was expected to play a lot of minutes and was dubbed as the franchise player and a starter of the Grizzlies right off the bat.




jazzy1 said:


> Now if you are correct and they KNEW AHEAD OF TIME that he was a project than why did they trade him. Because he couldn't play and by year 3 it had gotten old for a 2nd pick not to at least have cracked the rotation enough to get SOME playing time..


Why did they trade him is good question? Possibly because Joe Dumars made an error in judgement. If you're Joe Dumars and you know for a fact that Ben Wallace will not sign an extension to your team, would you let Darko go? 


The pure intent of the trade is not because he cannot play, every Piston player knows that he can play, Rasheed, Chauncey, Rip all shared their sentiments about Darko's situation. Darko start off his career in a bad situation, people deserve second chances and he got his.




jazzy1 said:


> so lets not act like he was getting snubbed by Brown or by Saunders/ When Saunders came in he said Darko would get a shot at playing and then Darko didn't warrant pt. So Dunars realized basically that darko had to go.


He was getting snubbed by Brown..plain and simple, there's no other way around it. Their relationship got into a personal level, just like every player that got on Larry's bad side (Iverson in Philly, Marbury in NY). Its well documented, If you dont know that then you're obviously not following it.


Coaches uses diplomacy, when asked by the media if Darko will play, of course Saunders will say yes. You dont expect a coach to tell the media he's not going to play his player, start a controversy  and create more turmoil, when all you want to do is win games.





jazzy1 said:


> Bosh had only alittle more experience spending 1 year a college and maybe was worse off from a physical standpoint. I think he would have gotten some pt on that Pistons team he would have pushed the Wallace boys and McDyess for pt as he does when he plays them straight up now days because he has confidence, intensity and knowledge of the game.


Thats purely hypothetical, given the scenario.



jazzy1 said:


> Then darko gets traded to orland a team headed straight to the lottery and he still doesn't get many minutes WHY probably because Brian Hill wasn't impressed either, coaches tend to believe it when other pro coaches even the dk Brown as you call it you know the hall Of famer thinks a guy can't compete. he had who battie in front of him . Yet he gets 20 minutes a game.


Incorrect, Orlando was battling for the playoff spot, they were on a point of relying for other teams to lose some games whic only tells you they were in a race, the Eastern conference race was pretty close late into the season. I cant believe you guys forgot this, it was only a few months ago.




jazzy1 said:


> Yet he gets 20 minutes a game, So now Darko fans think in 20 minutes if it translated out to 48 minutes he'd average 20 a night with 5 blocks


Are you kidding? For a player who has not proven himself in a professional level, and is not familiar with Brian Hill's system , 20 minutes is a good amount of playing time. thats is way more than some current Orlando players ever got. The kid played 20 minutes and you automatically assumed and deemed Brian Hill is not impressed? If Hill is really unimpressed, maybe Hill should've given him 7 minutes instead of 20...agree?


Also just to clarify some things, im in no way a Darko fan....FAR from it. And per 40 does not always work consistently. The more minute a player logs, it could possibly mean that he could get himself into unwanted circumstances. But Im sure you know that.





jazzy1 said:


> You don't get annoited pt YOU EARN THEM so if he gets them he'll have earned them.


Which brings it back to my main reasoning, that you dont get annointed for PT over some _"gimpy"_ veterans (as you stated) just because you're a 2nd overall draft pick. At the end, experience counts the most on a team vying for a championship...huge difference for a team trying to establish the teams younger stars. (ie, Lottery team, Expansion team)


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Why did they trade him is good question? Possibly because Joe Dumars made an error in judgement. If you're Joe Dumars and you know for a fact that Ben Wallace will not sign an extension to your team, would you let Darko go?


I don't see how trading Darko could be Dumars' err. As far as he is concerned neither coach has played him so he never new what use he can have for the team or especially what use can it be Darko himself if he stays on a team that doesn't play him. And because of that, Dumars would have still sign Nazi even if Darko was still on the team (remember, we all did not have any Idea what potential he would have until he was traded)




KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> *The pure intent of the trade is not because he cannot play,* every Piston player knows that he can play, Rasheed, Chauncey, Rip all shared their sentiments about Darko's situation. Darko start off his career in a bad situation, people deserve second chances and he got his.


The pure intent of the trade was really to better Darko's situation since Dumars really cannot controll who gets playing time. 



KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> He was getting snubbed by Brown..plain and simple, there's no other way around it. Their relationship got into a personal level, just like every player that got on Larry's bad side (Iverson in Philly, Marbury in NY). Its well documented, If you dont know that then you're obviously not following it.


You're right. Unfortunatelly, Brown is most to blaim for the entire situation because his additude towards Darko cause him to lose confidence. 



KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Coaches uses diplomacy, when asked by the media if Darko will play, of course Saunders will say yes. You dont expect a coach to tell the media he's not going tyo play his player, start a controversy and create more turmoil, when all you want to do is win games.


Are you assuming that Saunders had no intention of playing Darko to begin with? No. During that season, Darko's confidence was already hurt because of Brown and that greatly affected his game so after while it came appearent to Saunders (even though probably false) that Darko was at no use. The vicious circle then became inevitable - Saunders left Darko on the bench which affect Darko's confidence even more that then effected is game even more which of course gave Saunders more reason to keep him on the bench, and so on and so forth.



KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Are you kidding? For a player who has not proven himself in a professional level, and is not familiar with Brian Hill's system , 20 minutes is a good amount of playing time. thats is way more than some current Orlando players ever got. The kid played 20 minutes and you automatically assumed and deemed Brian Hill is not impressed? If Hill is really unimpressed, maybe Hill should've given him 7 minutes instead of 20...agree?


He never said that the coaching staff should not be impressed nor did he mean that. He was only concerned about the fans (and sometimes media) expanding minutes themeselves to contemplate what they expect from Darko.



KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> ....At the end, experience counts the most on a team vying for a championship...huge difference for a team trying to establish the teams younger stars.....(ie, Lottery team, Expansion team)


Your statement here (However very true) contradicts your possibility that Dumars could have made an error in judgment. Darko had no expeirence. It was the coaches fault but Dumars could not help that. All he new was that Darko wasn't playing and it was not helping the team nor Darko himself so Dumars decided to help both by trading.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

The One said:


> I don't see how trading Darko could be Dumars' err.


Of course it is...GM's take the credit and deserves the blame. Its a two way street. 




The One said:


> The pure intent of the trade was* really to better Darko's situation * since Dumars really cannot controll who gets playing time.


Really? Have you forgotten that this is all business? Dumars could'nt care less if Darko's situation improves or not if he leaves the Pistons. If anything Dumars has to look out for the best interest of the team not the best interest of the player that is leaving the organization.

simple logic bro.







The One said:


> Are you assuming that Saunders had no intention of playing Darko to begin with?


Sadly IM not, I really have no idea where how did you get to that conclusion.




The One said:


> He never said that the coaching staff should not be impressed nor did he mean that. He was only concerned about the fans (and sometimes media) expanding minutes themeselves to contemplate what they expect from Darko.


I would love to debate with you but you're not making sense its not an insult or an attack just an FYI. Also its clearly implied by the other poster that coach Hill is not impressed with Darko. There's no other way to get around it.

Read it back, you possibly missed it.


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## DaBruins (Jul 30, 2003)

The One said:


> I don't see how trading Darko could be Dumars' err. As far as he is concerned neither coach has played him so he never new what use he can have for the team or especially what use can it be Darko himself if he stays on a team that doesn't play him. And because of that, Dumars would have still sign Nazi even if Darko was still on the team (remember, we all did not have any Idea what potential he would have until he was traded)


i disagree. Of course people knew his potential - there was a reason he was the #2 pick in the draft. The Pistons knew Wallace was getting old and there was a good chance that he would either leave or they wouldnt be willing to pay him the max. Nazi is nothing more than a last resort.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

JYD said:


> here is a pic of Kwame before last season


Wow, he's got smaller hands than Kobe. Tiny fingers.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Of course it is...GM's take the credit and deserves the blame. Its a two way street.


I meant that Dumars trading Darko was not a bad decision, not that Dumars doesn't deserve blame (when decisions are not for the best of the team.) But that is my fault though because I did not specify in the post






KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Really? *Have you forgotten that this is all business?* Dumars could'nt care less if Darko's situation improves or not if he leaves the Pistons.* If anything Dumars has to look out for the best interest of the team* not the best interest of the player that is leaving the organization.


 No I haven't forgotten; I also said in my post that Dumars traded him for the team's benifit too. Again that was my fault for putting to much emphasis on Darko's situation in that statement of mine.

I personaly don't believe that Dumars did not care about Darko's situation because their have been a lot of trades where not only was the team in thought but the player too. Darko's situation is a good example; Darko wasn't getting playing so not only was he having no effect on the teams wins or losses, there was no way he can improve on his confidence and skill. So it's possible that he felt that a trade willl help both parties.



KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> I would love to debate with you but you're not making sense its not an insult or an attack just an FYI. Also its clearly implied by the other poster *that coach Hill is not impressed with Darko.* There's no other way to get around it.
> 
> Read it back, you possibly missed it.


You are exactly right. That was my miss read.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

DaBruins said:


> i disagree. *Of course people knew his potential* - there was a reason he was the #2 pick in the draft. The Pistons knew Wallace was getting old and there was a good chance that he would either leave or they wouldnt be willing to pay him the max. Nazi is nothing more than a last resort.


Again, my choice of words are terrible:clown: ........I ment that nobody really had an idea or had faith of how *good* he is at an NBA level until he went to the Magic. 

Nazi was a last resort, but do you think Darko at the mindset he had in Detriot would be better than the Nazi they signed now as far as the best chance to win a championship?


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## DaBruins (Jul 30, 2003)

:yes: 



The One said:


> Again, my choice of words are terrible:clown: ........I ment that nobody really had an idea or had faith of how *good* he is at an NBA level until he went to the Magic.
> 
> Nazi was a last resort, but do you think Darko at the mindset he had in Detriot would be better than the Nazi they signed now as far as the best chance to win a championship?


 :yes:


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> You cant compare Gasol's situation to Darko, Gasol's resume before even entering or after his rookie season in the NBA was extensive at a young age. He had numerous recognitions and achievement in the FC Barcelona stage winning a couple of MVP awards and was dominating in the junior european league. He was making a whole lot of noise in the basketball scene to begin with. Furthermore, Gasol was given playing time on a expansion team...he was expected to play a lot of minutes and was dubbed as the franchise player and a starter of the Grizzlies right off the bat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just more excuses. You act as if circumstances conspired against Darko and a stubborn vet coach in Brown. If Darko could PLAY, he would have gotten minutes, Brown would not have sacrificed his team just to keep a talented Rookie on the pine to spite the rookie for being a rookie. 

And saunders again you haven't dispelled this notion didn't think Darko could help EITHER, you haven't explained this yet. 

Yet YOU contend that the Orlando Magic traded for Darko in the middle of a playoff race YET again Circumstances conspire against Darko again getting BIG MINUTES , THEN why did they trade for him to have ANOTHER PROJECT, huh, so again the powerhouse Tony Battie keeps Darko riding the pine. 

20 mintes a game on a team that made a REAL LATE season push for the playoffs which I don't really believe because most of the season they were playing for next season just a bad Eastern conference brought them closer towards the end when the Wizards, Bulls and Bucks were all falling apart down the stretch. So lets not make it seems as if they controlled their destiny. 

I really think Hill was forced by management to play this kid, he didn't play Darko in many of the games key momets at all, he was given early minutes. 

Like I said he's along way from being just a solid player, yet some are giddy about him and the Magic because he didn't fall on his face in 20 minutes a game. 

I'm not a fan of the Magic I don't have to see things in the most optimistc light as Magic fans do I have watched alot of those end of the season games on the season ticket and I just wasn't impressed overall by Darko's overall ability as a player. He has some talent everyone in the league does but as a bigman the shot blocking is the only thing he does that symbolizes him playing BIG as a real bigman I viewed him as a tall guy with small guy skills and very little intensity or physicality. 

So as I said these are the facts 3 nba coaches were not taken away with Darko's ability and he got little time in year 3 years.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

jazzy1 said:


> Just more excuses. You act as if circumstances conspired against Darko and a stubborn vet coach in Brown. If Darko could PLAY, he would have gotten minutes, Brown would not have sacrificed his team just to keep a talented Rookie on the pine to spite the rookie for being a rookie.
> 
> And saunders again you haven't dispelled this notion didn't think Darko could help EITHER, you haven't explained this yet.
> 
> ...



My god you are so wrong it just annoys the hell out of me. The fact that I know you are serious just makes me madder. I know there's no point in responding to your drivel as it is obvious you don't know what you are talking about, but I am curious as to why you hate Darko. Is it because you're a Kwame fan and are insecure that Darko is better? Is it because Darko raped your mother? Why this grudge?


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## Kobester888 (Jul 8, 2005)

Darko is going to be good. I thought he played well in the world championships. I believe he was like the leader in blocks for the whole tournament.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Hairy Midget said:


> My god you are so wrong it just annoys the hell out of me. The fact that I know you are serious just makes me madder. I know there's no point in responding to your drivel as it is obvious you don't know what you are talking about, but I am curious as to why you hate Darko. Is it because you're a Kwame fan and are insecure that Darko is better? Is it because Darko raped your mother? Why this grudge?


Please stop it respond to the post not me this isn't personal. I don't hate Darko, I have said nothing that indicates this, I just don't get why some ignorant people believe a 3 ppg career guy is gonna be this stud when in 3 years and 2 teams and 3 coaches he hasn't gotten any real playing time because he hasn't found the ideal situation as yall contend. 

If the kid becomes a player I'll say it HERE. he has talent and some skills but if you don't apply it so what. Nothing I have said is factually wrong. 

Just hard for Darko Stans like yourself to face facts. The kid hasn't busted a grape in 3 years. 

I don't hate players, just look at their games and comment.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

jazzy1 said:


> Just more excuses. You act as if circumstances conspired against Darko and a stubborn vet coach in Brown. If Darko could PLAY, he would have gotten minutes, *Brown would not have sacrificed his team* just to keep a talented Rookie on the pine to spite the rookie *for being a rookie. *


You do know that history has proven otherwise. Every where Brown has coached, including in Athens, He has always underminded rookies whether they were good or not. Brown's ideology for winning has always been to use the most experience players and that alone could have very well crushed Darko's confidence. Darko has talent - but only confidence can make it evident.



jazzy1 said:


> Yet YOU contend that the Orlando Magic traded for Darko in the middle of a playoff race *YET again Circumstances conspire against Darko again getting BIG MINUTES* , THEN why did they *trade for him to have ANOTHER PROJECT, huh, so again the powerhouse Tony Battie keeps Darko riding the pine*.


I wish you could reword this statement because it _looks like you're saying_ that *KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ* assumed Orlando traded for Darko so that he could help them make a run for the playoffs. From what I recall, *KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ* only mentioned _the_ playoff because earlier you mentioned how Orlando was lottery bound and he felt that you did not remember all of Orlando's season.



jazzy1 said:


> 20 mintes a game on a team that made a REAL LATE season push for the playoffs _*which I don't really believe because most of the season they were playing for next season just a bad Eastern conference brought them closer towards the end when the Wizards, Bulls and Bucks were all falling apart down the stretch. So lets not make it seems as if they controlled their destiny*_.


Now here is where you really don't know what happened during the Magic's season. They finshed the season winning 14 of their last 19 games. They had a 8 game winning streak for crying out, if that's not trying to controll one's destiny and making a playoff push, then I don't know what is.



jazzy1 said:


> I really think *Hill was forced by management to play this kid*, he didn't play Darko in many of the games key moments at all, he was given early minutes.


I know this is your opinion but it's beginning to look like you really do not like Darko. Hill and Management were together on the decision to rebuild this team. When they received Darko, they started him out slow (of course 20 mins per game is a blessing after his time in Detriot) so that they can begin to have an Idea what to expect from him. Darko did pretty well with in that time frame, but the Magic went on an unprecedented winning streak that got them close to the playoffs. They never increased Darko's minutes because of two things: 1. the playing time that was given to Darko and Battie combo was working wonders for their run and there was no reason to mess up chemistry by changing. 2. The Magic also knew that training camp is what will really make Darko mend with Hill's style and then they can add more minutes accordingly.



jazzy1 said:


> *Like I said he's along way from being just a solid player*....He has some talent everyone in the league does but as a bigman the shot blocking is the only thing he does that symbolizes him playing BIG as a real bigman I viewed him as a tall guy with small guy skills and very little intensity or physicality.


Here you are right and it would be best just to have that as your argument because it's one thing to point out that Darko his still not solid and should not be given to much hype yet (which is true), but it's another thing to say that no coach wants to play him because of his abilities or lack there of which we have no idea if that's true or not and it's complete about opinion.



jazzy1 said:


> So as I said these are the facts 3 nba coaches were not taken away with Darko's ability and he got little time in year 3 years.


Those are not the facts...those are your opinions 



jazzy1 said:


> I'm not a fan of the Magic *I don't have to see things in the most optimistc light as Magic fans do*.


I'm happy to see that you pointed this out; of course this could take credablity from you when you post about anything Magic related. 

It's a shame too because you wote a decent post in past that had the best argument: _'We don't know how good Darko is yet so lets bring down the hype a bit'_ But this post of yours only shows two things: 1. You really don't care about Darko or at least not willing to give any benifit of the doubt and 2. You are only willing to mention anything optimistic about the Magic if you want to; which gives readers an agenda and bias feeling from you went you post about the Magic.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

The One said:


> You do know that history has proven otherwise. Every where Brown has coached, including in Athens, He has always underminded rookies whether they were good or not. Brown's ideology for winning has always been to use the most experience players and that alone could have very well crushed Darko's confidence. Darko has talent - but only confidence can make it evident.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Larry Brown, Flip Saunders and Brian Hill 3 coaches none of which would give Darko big minutes. True or False. None thought he was this stud who deserved to get big minutes. 

I think the Magic have solid talent. 

I quite enjoy watching Jameer Nelson and Dwight Howard who in my mind is the league's best young bigman and maybe the best bigman in the league in 3, 4 years. Gotta develop some offense, he's very awkward and robotic in the post at times but he's a stud who I love watching actually rebound bang and shot block. 

Its not biased against the Magic to say I don't have to see things at is most optimistic light if I did see things that way I would be biased for them get it. 

I have no emotional atachment either way for them or Darko. I was actually hoping Darko would succeed in the NBA. But to make a myriad of excuses for why he hasn't suceeded is just silly. Its not everyone's elses fault for why he hasn't done anything. 

Again if Melo, Wade or Bosh had played for the Pistons think they would have gottne pt of course tey would have. Brown nor Saunders had an axe to grind agains te kid he just didn't step up. 

The magic didn't come into serious play for the playoffs until the last mont, GSW the year before won a bunch of games at the end of the season 2 years ago and it didn't mean tey were on the verge they beat teams who may have taken them lightly towards season's end.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

jazzy1 said:


> Larry Brown, Flip Saunders and Brian Hill 3 coaches none of which would give Darko big minutes. True or False. None thought he was this stud who deserved to get big minutes.
> 
> I think the Magic have solid talent.
> 
> ...



You keep saying Brian Hill didn't give Darko big minutes. Darko averaged 20 minutes per game with the Magic. You have to understand, Darko hadn't played very much in over two years. That's about all he could play after not playing for 2 and half years. He wasn't in great enough shape to play 30 mpg. There were a few games, I remember one against NY, where Darko started and led the team in minutes. 

You also say he couldn't keep Darko in at the end of games and stuff. There were games where Dwight Howard was not effective, one I can name right now was in a win against the Bulls, where the Magic were down and Darko came in the fourth quarter and totally locked down the paint. He totally controlled everything on the defensive end, and the Magic came back and won the game. Darko also locked down the paint in a game against the Sixers. Iverson could not score in the paint, and thus had to rely on strictly jumpshooting. The Magic won that rather easily. Darko was responsible for several of our wins at the end of the year. I wish you would stop spouting off these ignorant ideas that are obviously wrong.

It seems like every thing you say about Darko is wrong. I don't know if you don't watch the games or if you're just ignorant.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Hairy Midget said:


> I wish you would stop spouting off these _*ignorant ideas that are obviously wrong.*_
> 
> It seems like every thing *you say *about Darko is wrong. I don't know if you don't watch the games or if *you're just ignorant*.


Dude, those are just his opinions. And it would be great for every poster here if you would stop being _*ignorant *_and attacking him and just comment specificly about his post.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

jazzy1 said:


> Again if Melo, Wade or Bosh had played for the Pistons think they would have gottne pt of course tey would have. Brown nor Saunders had an axe to grind agains te kid he just didn't step up.


Now we all know that Melo, Wade, and Bosh were better than Darko at the draft. I'm not so sure about Saunders but yes there is still a good chance that Brown would have left them on the bench for some time. He has never been fond of rookie guards and Melo's additude could take effect. He barely gave Wade and Melo playing time in Athens after both Wade and Melo came off very good rookie seasons with their teams. Now there is a chance that Bosh would get some playing time at least until they sign Rasheed (If they would after they draft Bosh). Once Rasheed comes Bosh will most likley be back on the bench. 



jazzy1 said:


> The magic didn't come into serious play for the playoffs until the last mont, GSW the year before won a bunch of games at the end of the season 2 years ago and it didn't mean tey were on the verge they beat teams who may have taken them lightly towards season's end.


The Magic and the Warriors were two different situations though. The warriors that year were trying to just end that season on a high note, mainly because they were nowhere near playoff contention even during the last month (The Lakers had the same record and they were in 11th place!) The Magic were contending for a playoff spot when they realized the 76s were on a free fall. That's when they woke up and went on a huge run that started near the end of march. Unfortunately Chicago had the same idea and reached the 7th spot and the Bucks did not fall far as they hoped - also the Magic lost their last two game that put them below the 76s at the end of the season.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

jazzy1 said:


> I really think Hill was forced by management to play this kid, he didn't play Darko in many of the games key momets at all, he was given early minutes.


You have no firm stand on your arguments, first you conclude that Brian Hill is unimpressed with Darko that's why he only gave him 20 minutes, then when common sense was brought up in this topic, you're basing your opinions now on _conspiracies_ and what if's.


I think you just want to disagree just for the sake of disagreeing.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

The One said:


> Now we all know that Melo, Wade, and Bosh were better than Darko at the draft. I'm not so sure about Saunders but yes there is still a good chance that Brown would have left them on the bench for some time. He has never been fond of rookie guards and Melo's additude could take effect. He barely gave Wade and Melo playing time in Athens after both Wade and Melo came off very good rookie seasons with their teams. Now there is a chance that Bosh would get some playing time at least until they sign Rasheed (If they would after they draft Bosh). Once Rasheed comes Bosh will most likley be back on the bench.
> 
> 
> 
> The Magic and the Warriors were two different situations though. The warriors that year were trying to just end that season on a high note, mainly because they were nowhere near playoff contention even during the last month (The Lakers had the same record and they were in 11th place!) The Magic were contending for a playoff spot when they realized the 76s were on a free fall. That's when they woke up and went on a huge run that started near the end of march. Unfortunately Chicago had the same idea and reached the 7th spot and the Bucks did not fall far as they hoped - also the Magic lost their last two game that put them below the 76s at the end of the season.



1st off you say almost flippantly that Bosh and melo and Wade were better than Darko. AT the time the Piston's thought Darko was better and had the better future. They for sure thought Darko was better than Bosh who most people thought was a project along the lines of Darko anyway being a skinny young kid with little experiemce amd size for the league. Not many people thought Wade was gonna be that special, well I did but thats another story. 

They realized they had a shot at the birth when some of those teams started falling mainly the Wizards, Sixers and Bucks. They ween't thougt of as a team contending for the playoffs before then. But the GSW comparison is the same doesn't mean any carry over is likely. 

I really don't expect much from the magic based on their coach, Hill is a terrible coach so they won't reach max potential until he gets canned.

We'e going in circles at this point. darko hasn't done much thats the bottom line. There's nothing to support the contrary but a few games at the back end of the season in 20 minutes or so a game. Really nothing special.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

jazzy1 said:


> They realized they had a shot at the birth when some of those teams started falling mainly the Wizards, Sixers and Bucks. *They ween't thougt of as a team contending for the playoffs before then. ...*.


Nobody is disagreeing with that 



jazzy1 said:


> I really don't expect much from the magic based on their coach, *Hill is a terrible coach so they won't reach max potential until he gets canned.*


Terrible coach? Please explain why.



jazzy1 said:


> We'e going in circles at this point. darko hasn't done much thats the bottom line. There's nothing to support the contrary but a few games at the back end of the season in 20 minutes or so a game. Really nothing special.


Going in circles? I always agreed with you as far as "Darko hasn't done much" You keep on replying and I just like to comment. Think of it as PTI - those two guys are going after eachother arguing over stuff they agree about :bsmile:


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## lw32 (May 24, 2003)

The One said:


> Terrible coach? Please explain why.


Brian Hill isn't a great coach. He doesn't use the players he has in the right scenario's and his substitution pattern is awful. He'll consistantly leave Dwight out in key moments, not to mention swing momentum the wrong way by bringing on cold subs.

Also, for an athletic team Orlando does not run. You'd think with Battie, Howard and Darko up front we'd try and outrun some teams, but no. We're nearly dead last in pace and FGA per 48 minutes. Simply not good enough for an athletic team in this age of basketball.

He has history in Orlando, which was the main selling point in the appointment of him as Head Coach. Terrible coach? Terrible is harsh, he hasn't shown anything lately to be considered a good coach though. I'd slate him at slightly below average as of now. He was good back in '96. 10 years ago.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Lachlanwood32 said:


> Brian Hill isn't a great coach. He doesn't use the players he has in the right scenario's and his substitution pattern is awful. He'll consistantly leave Dwight out in key moments, not to mention swing momentum the wrong way by bringing on cold subs.
> 
> Also, for an athletic team Orlando does not run. You'd think with Battie, Howard and Darko up front we'd try and outrun some teams, but no. We're nearly dead last in pace and FGA per 48 minutes. Simply not good enough for an athletic team in this age of basketball.
> 
> He has history in Orlando, which was the main selling point in the appointment of him as Head Coach. Terrible coach? Terrible is harsh, he hasn't shown anything lately to be considered a good coach though. I'd slate him at slightly below average as of now. He was good back in '96. 10 years ago.


At least you explained why he may be terrible....

Now you do have to remember that even with his unusual decisions he was still able to make this team win in the end. Also Hill only had this roster for half season so we will have to wait until this upcoming season when they have a training camp with everybody and then go through the season before some of us declare him to be a mistake in Orlando.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Lachlanwood32 said:


> Brian Hill isn't a great coach. He doesn't use the players he has in the right scenario's and his substitution pattern is awful. He'll consistantly leave Dwight out in key moments, not to mention swing momentum the wrong way by bringing on cold subs.
> 
> Also, for an athletic team Orlando does not run. You'd think with Battie, Howard and Darko up front we'd try and outrun some teams, but no. We're nearly dead last in pace and FGA per 48 minutes. Simply not good enough for an athletic team in this age of basketball.
> 
> He has history in Orlando, which was the main selling point in the appointment of him as Head Coach. Terrible coach? Terrible is harsh, he hasn't shown anything lately to be considered a good coach though. I'd slate him at slightly below average as of now. He was good back in '96. 10 years ago.


Good stuff you took my answer. 

I really felt like Darko should have been given BIG minutes at the end of last season. Its time to play this kid huge minutes warranted or not. If they value him as much as Magic fans think give him the starting job opposite Howard and find out. No future in battie getting big minutes. 

I really think they could take off if they dump Hill and brought in someone like Stan van Gundy. He's an upgrade to Hill.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

The One said:


> Nobody is disagreeing with that
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I enjoy tossing it around we're just starting to lap around each other with the same arguments. You make god points we can discuss any good NBA topic its entertaining. 

I just tend to follow what I see I try and eliminate the typical fan bias because I have a background in bball. Okay full disclosure I tend to be biased for the Lakers I have to admit but I won't defend the absurd. 

My problem with fan bias is that they tend to predict future things in its most optimistic light. I tend to take the history is the best predicter of future success way of thinking. If a guy hasn't done much from an activity standpoint why then is his workrate gonna double or triple out of the blue. To me you build to break outs, you have bursts of greatness before you have sustained greatness. Or stretches of solid play before you become consistently solid.


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## azn kobe jr (May 6, 2006)

this guy will be like shaq....sorta


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

azn kobe jr said:


> this guy *will be like shaq*....sorta


I sure hope not...


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Eternal said:


> Well according to ESPN.com he was last year. I was creating a site for all the rosters, so I copied down everyone's weight etc., and I checked what it was, when I recorded it last year through RSS, and it was at 248.



Most of those weights and heights are from the players rookie year. Kwame Brown was 275 pounds last year, this according to Laker broadcasts.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

bballlife said:


> Most of those weights and heights are from the players rookie year. Kwame Brown was 275 pounds last year, this according to Laker broadcasts.


Hhmm, so that means he lost weight....:yes: :no: :sour:......not good


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

azn kobe jr said:


> this guy will be like shaq....sorta



Yeah, he will get as much play time a Shaq does when Shaq sprains his big toe.


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