# KC: Bulls Phone It In....(blah, blah, blah some more)



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> "We have had a constant struggle to embrace what being a professional player for the Chicago Bulls means," Skiles said Thursday. "That doesn't mean we're not going to win that struggle. It doesn't mean we haven't made strides in that area, because we have. But we're still not where we want to be."
> 
> No, the Bulls aren't. And none of this silly off-the-court stuff would matter or see the light of print if this team had more than 18 victories. Winning, as the saying goes, masks everything.
> 
> ...


Stick a fork in it. :sigh: 


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...nbulls,1,6321671.story?coll=cs-home-headlines


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## SpartanBull (Oct 12, 2003)

Even the team beat reporter is calling them [edit]. :no:


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

2 weeks ago Skiles was talking playoffs...

Now he's waiting until April 14th and the season will be over..

Hopefully so will his tenure as Bulls coach...


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

You can sense the resentment. go KC.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Well first off, now that we know the facts, we can stop bashing ERob for a minute...

"Take the controversy over pregame cell phone calls. For the record, Eddie Robinson didn't call Eddy Curry before Wednesday's loss in Detroit, as Robinson jokingly claimed, but coach Scott Skiles supported Kendall Gill's angry order to Curry to shut his cell phone off."

2nd, even KC is noticing Skiles constantly airing dirty laundry...

"Skiles, who gamely is trying to impose his will on a roster full of players who may not want to follow, consistently talks of how players forget practice shorts, park in handicapped parking spaces at the Berto Center, etc. Whatever happened to talking about the ol' pick-and-roll?"

3rd, we're a joke and KC says it by the end of his article.


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 2 weeks ago Skiles was talking playoffs...
> 
> Now he's waiting until April 14th and the season will be over..
> ...


No, so will their tenure as Bulls player for those sorry *** kido players. Jamal, Tyson and Curry. I see at least two of them gone. I don't mind if they throw away all three of them. They don't win any worth during their tenure. If you want to blame someone, balme them. After all they are the ones on the floor. Not the coaches or GM.


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> 2nd, even KC is noticing Skiles constantly airing dirty laundry...


So when KC was bashing Jamal, he was a dumb ***. Now KC is on Skile, suddenly he is the wise guy. Interesting.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> 
> So when KC was bashing Jamal, he was a dumb ***. Now KC is on Skile, suddenly he is the wise guy. Interesting.


no one messes with arenas' "boo", isn't that painfully obvious by now? 

reporters write what they see and hear. and like KC says, winning masks everything. or at least a lot of the petty crap we've been subjected to lately. here's a nutty thought - i suggest a gag order on skiles. sudden severe laryngitis after all remaining games. they ask him a question and he shrugs as he nods his head no and points in the direction of the players. ask jamal and eddy and tyson and kirk and the rest of them ... let them take the heat. they're the ones lacing them up, ask them. let them take the responsibility. yes, that's right, responsibility for their own actions. what a novel idea. 

of course this isn't going to happen. and yes, i am delusional. 

and if anyone really believes that it wasn't e-rob phoning then i say, get a clue.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Well first off, now that we know the facts, we can stop bashing ERob for a minute...
> 
> "Take the controversy over pregame cell phone calls. For the record, Eddie Robinson didn't call Eddy Curry before Wednesday's loss in Detroit, as Robinson jokingly claimed, but coach Scott Skiles supported Kendall Gill's angry order to Curry to shut his cell phone off."
> ...


Good post. I hate Erob, but I dont see any apologies for this headed in his direction. He had nothing to do with this one. KC is an ok writer. I am not sure he cares too much, or knows that much about the club. But even he sees Skiles lack of talking about basketball subject matters. Its always about parking spaces (as anyone actually been to the Berto Center?, another non issue Lou), Shorts, Cell Phones and thats it. outside of taking Curry to task every game for his rebounding, I dont hear him talking about issues such as spacing, or his bizarre substitution patterns etc. i am sure he is a smart guy, but even he has totally lost focus on what counts. Good thing that KC pointed that out. Atleast we know there is one guy in the media who wont hug this guys nuts at every opportunity


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Good post. I hate Erob, but I dont see any apologies for this headed in his direction. He had nothing to do with this one. KC is an ok writer. I am not sure he cares too much, or knows that much about the club. But even he sees Skiles lack of talking about basketball subject matters. Its always about parking spaces (as anyone actually been to the Berto Center?, another non issue Lou), Shorts, Cell Phones and thats it. outside of taking Curry to task every game for his rebounding, I dont hear him talking about issues such as spacing, or his bizarre substitution patterns etc. i am sure he is a smart guy, but even he has totally lost focus on what counts. Good thing that KC pointed that out. Atleast we know there is one guy in the media who wont hug this guys nuts at every opportunity


Perhaps you'd like to expand on who exactly in the media has the propensity to "hug (Skiles) nuts at every opportunity".

The Bulls players are soft, unprofessional and without heart or desire in my opinion. But hey, just for jollies lets keep "enabling" them with all this whining about "dirty laundry". Oh, poor sad players. Its obvious thats the REAL ISSUE, right? I believe Paxson was just quoted as being on board with what Skiles is doing and how he is handling things as well. So please don't forget to include him in your diatribe or expand on who may be "huggging his nuts at every opportunity as well". And don't forget your harping on the conditioning excuse. Did you ever follow all that harping up with a response to Rose and Marshall being out of shape in Toronto? Hey, their clame not mine. 

Perhaps you have some unknown credentials as a master motivator or captain of industry and could step right in and replace these "miscreants". Perhaps you hold the exact solution to what ails this group of players. I mean, with proper spacing and a creative offensive system (isn't that how the triangle was defined?) the Bulls ship will be righted once again, yes?

Hey, you don't like Skiles and you're not interested in giving him a fair shot. Thats your call. But for every point, there is a counterpoint.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> Perhaps you'd like to expand on who exactly in the media has the propensity to "hug (Skiles) nuts at every opportunity".
> ...


read your PM

I know there is a counterpoint. only one or 2 guys have stepped up with any

I hate the players too and have given them plenty of blame


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Good post. I hate Erob, but I dont see any apologies for this headed in his direction. He had nothing to do with this one. KC is an ok writer. I am not sure he cares too much, or knows that much about the club. But even he sees Skiles lack of talking about basketball subject matters. Its always about parking spaces (as anyone actually been to the Berto Center?, another non issue Lou), Shorts, Cell Phones and thats it. outside of taking Curry to task every game for his rebounding, I dont hear him talking about issues such as spacing, or his bizarre substitution patterns etc. i am sure he is a smart guy, but even he has totally lost focus on what counts. Good thing that KC pointed that out. Atleast we know there is one guy in the media who wont hug this guys nuts at every opportunity


I'd guess that Skiles can't talk about issues such as spacing and the like because he can't even get that far. One, because Skiles has in a way opened a Pandora's box with his "airing dirty laundry" to the press, the press want more. Go figure. Two, our key players aren't even to the point of being able to go over spacing and the like because it seems that they can't even get ready for practice or conduct themselves in the least sense as professionals. These are non issues. Or better yet, they should be. Once these guys can begin to handel _themselves_ (note the inference of responsibility here) in a professional manner, then and only then, might we get to see two teams actually playing a basketball game as opposed to one professional team and one AAU team.

I'd argue that Skiles is about the only one that is trying to focus on what counts. The players surely aren't. If they were, why would Skiles have to keep bringing it up? Why is Skiles held out as the bad guy here when it's pretty patently clear that there are certain players who simply can't conduct themselves in a professional manner?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd guess that Skiles can't talk about issues such as spacing and the like because he can't even get that far. One, because Skiles has in a way opened a Pandora's box with his "airing dirty laundry" to the press, the press want more. Go figure. Two, our key players aren't even to the point of being able to go over spacing and the like because it seems that they can't even get ready for practice or conduct themselves in the least sense as professionals. These are non issues. Or better yet, they should be. Once these guys can begin to handel _themselves_ (note the inference of responsibility here) in a professional manner, then and only then, might we get to see two teams actually playing a basketball game as opposed to one professional team and one AAU team.
> ...


again, I hate the players too. And have given them plenty of blame. But this same cast and crew did much better last year under a different coach. And that coach was bashed by everyone as a nitwit. Well the nitwit won about 50 basis points more last then Skiles won this year. So why isnt this coach a nitwit?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

What I don't get is that Cartwright achieved better success with this team and a "cancer" (Rose) with his disciplinarian approach and he achieved better success just putting the guys on the court and letting them play at the end of last season.

Now we have more discipline, no "cancer," and more losses.

I do believe there is a cause and effect going on here.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> again, I hate the players too. And have given them plenty of blame. But this same cast and crew did much better last year under a different coach. And that coach was bashed by everyone as a nitwit. Well the nitwit won about 50 basis points more last then Skiles won this year. So why isnt this coach a nitwit?


I was one of the few people that supported Cartwright. Still do. Again, it's because I really don't see the coach making all that much of a difference. Bad players + good coach = losing team.

Also, you seem to vascillate between calling this team the same cast and crew when it suits your purposes and then in other instances citing how there are now 7 or 8 different players on this roster and how this is as much Paxs' team and Krauses. When bashing Pax, this is a different team. When bashing Skiles this is the same cast and crew. Which one is it?

Bad players = bad team, regardless of who coaches.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> What I don't get is that Cartwright achieved better success with this team and a "cancer" (Rose) with his disciplinarian approach and he achieved better success just putting the guys on the court and letting them play at the end of last season.
> 
> Now we have more discipline, no "cancer," and more losses.
> ...


as arenas said once. How is it that Coach A, who was an idiot, win more games then coach B, and coach B is a genius?


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> again, I hate the players too. And have given them plenty of blame. But this same cast and crew did much better last year under a different coach. And that coach was bashed by everyone as a nitwit. Well the nitwit won about 50 basis points more last then Skiles won this year. So why isnt this coach a nitwit?


Are you really saying you believe this team is better than the team last year? Rose - cancer or not was good for about 20/5/5. He also was consistent unlike this years leading scorer - Jamal. Kobe is clearly a cancer, but watch how the teams line up for him. Last years team also had Donyell who had a very nice year and is having another one in Toronto. It also had Marcus Fizer playing like 6th man of the year prior to his ACL injury. It had Tyson Chandler playing the entire year and playing at a high level from the all-star break on. You can subtract all four of those guys from this years team. You can add back Antonio Davis, Jerome Williams, and Kendall Gill but even you'd have to admit theres no comparison. Then lets add in the obvious - Cartwright had his own camp, and a full season. He deserved to be responsible. There is even a different mentality in a coaching change from the wretched Floyd years to the hope of the Cartwright years. The change this year was not only met with trepidation, but also became the THIRD head coaching change for some of these players. Thats another new mentality and its a lot harder to look at this one as positive whether its Skiles or someone else.

The only advantage between this year and last is that Kirk has been a much better player then JWill last year. The fact that the JWill / Jamal situation didn't have to be played out this year as JWill / Kirk was of Cartwrights doing anyway so it wouldn't belong in the comparison regardless.

Now c'mon, can you really say this team is anywhere close to last years? It sounds like you are really trying to align the facts to substantiate your pre-conceived conclusion.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 2 weeks ago Skiles was talking playoffs...
> 
> Now he's waiting until April 14th and the season will be over..
> ...


thats not what he said. He said it would be easy to do that. But thats not what he's letting them do.

but i'm not surprised you misrepresented him. 

and Skiles. you are goin to be one frustrated Skiles hater, because Pax will be fired B4 Skiles is fired. And don't bet on that anytime soon


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you really saying you believe this team is better than the team last year? Rose - cancer or not was good for about 20/5/5. He also was consistent unlike this years leading scorer - Jamal. Kobe is clearly a cancer, but watch how the teams line up for him. Last years team also had Donyell who had a very nice year and is having another one in Toronto. It also had Marcus Fizer playing like 6th man of the year prior to his ACL injury. It had Tyson Chandler playing the entire year and playing at a high level from the all-star break on. You can subtract all four of those guys from this years team. You can add back Antonio Davis, Jerome Williams, and Kendall Gill but even you'd have to admit theres no comparison. Then lets add in the obvious - Cartwright had his own camp, and a full season. He deserved to be responsible. There is even a different mentality in a coaching change from the wretched Floyd years to the hope of the Cartwright years. The change this year was not only met with trepidation, but also became the THIRD head coaching change for some of these players. Thats another new mentality and its a lot harder to look at this one as positive whether its Skiles or someone else.
> ...


Rose was a bum. and Marshall has been missed. But this club has Hinrich, not Jwill, which is a step up. Now if missing Rose is the cause of the drop, then lets blame Pax. I can buy that. But, I will say that Curry, Chandler and Crawford are a year older and we have Hinrich. So basically, the same team. And we are down about 50 basis points? Either there is consistency or there isnt. If we hated Rose, then we are at the same level as last year. If we like Rose, then pax is to blame. I can buy either. But I see regression, not progression, from the guys Skiles should be working with. And that doesnt reflect well on him


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> as arenas said once. How is it that Coach A, who was an idiot, win more games then coach B, and coach B is a genius?


May I ask who has suggested he's a genius while I wait on who is hugging his nuts?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> May I ask who has suggested he's a genius while I wait on who is hugging his nuts?


read the board, read the newspapers. Only KC has criticized Skiles publicly. And I am sure Skiles approval rating among Bulls fans is north of 70%. he certainly hasnt earned that type of respect yet.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

rlucas, Lord know how much i respect your opinions. I think you are just over the Skiles cliff.
Nobody is all bad, or all good.

coaching, like the great Chuck Daley says, is salemanship. You have got to sell your players on your program. Thats what separates the good coaches from the innefective ones.

Skile proved he can coach "Basketball" in Phoenix. He's gotten mad props on his knowledge from his old players, his new players, and from coaches and GMs around the league.

But whether or not Skiles can sell, was in dispute in Phoenix. He sort of burnt out, as has been noted, and he lost the edge on his guys.
But nobody has ever accused Skiles of not knowing the game, or how to teach it, or of not knowing a hell of a lot about Xs and Os like you are doing r. Nobody. I'm begging you to stop. He's not working with guys ready to meet his standards of sophistication. Not even close.
Please dispute his ability to get the players to play all you want. But please reconsider the Skiles is a dumb guy routine  And i know you said he is smart. But you don't know the coaching he does. All we hear are media blurbs. The players are the cuprits if they aren't responsive to his teaching IMO


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> rlucas, Lord know how much i respect your opinions. I think you are just over the Skiles cliff.
> Nobody is all bad, or all good.
> 
> ...


hmm, some guys in Phoenix liked him, some didnt. Jason Kidd wasnt a big fan and neither was our own Corie Blount. Makes you think that might have had something to do with it. Googs and Penny liked him, I have read. He had a nice record out there, but he couldnt sell that team into disciplined basketball either. 

I think ultimately we are all spoiled here. I mean we had the greatest coach in modern sports in Phil. he is a huge measuring stick. I respect that Skiles has walked away entirely from Jacksons triangle, being the first Bulls coach to do so since Jackson rode his bike out of town. But what has he done to distinguish himself from the his 2 predecessors? I mean Floyd has less to work with then Skiles and wasnt much worse. And we hate Floyd. i am being consistent. I want results. We arent getting it with Skiles. In fact, we have taken a step back. The players are *******s, I agree. But what has Skiles really brought to the table other then crying about things that really dont mean a whole lot once the game starts? Whether a cell phone goes off or a guy is wearing his shorts a certain way has zero, and i mean zero bearing on how we do on the court? Why isnt he focusing on basketball issues?

Fleet, its great having you around mate, rather then the other board. and your my odds on pick to win the ribs this month.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> again, I hate the players too. And have given them plenty of blame. But this same cast and crew did much better last year under a different coach. And that coach was bashed by everyone as a nitwit. Well the nitwit won about 50 basis points more last then Skiles won this year. So why isnt this coach a nitwit?


That coach got over a year and at least one offseason to institute his system and his authority. Then he came back and we started off awful, despite a contributing Tyson Chandler and as healthy of a Pippen as we got. That's why he lost his job. His team was performing worse than it did his previous year. Let's not forget this.

This coach needs an offseason to work with the guys, but will he exceed nitwit status then? Probably not, but at least he's not running the triangle with a bunch of kids.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Rose was a bum. and Marshall has been missed. But this club has Hinrich, not Jwill, which is a step up. Now if missing Rose is the cause of the drop, then lets blame Pax. I can buy that. But, I will say that Curry, Chandler and Crawford are a year older and we have Hinrich. So basically, the same team. And we are down about 50 basis points? Either there is consistency or there isnt. If we hated Rose, then we are at the same level as last year. If we like Rose, then pax is to blame. I can buy either. But I see regression, not progression, from the guys Skiles should be working with. And that doesnt reflect well on him


By omission are you suggesting Fizer last year = Fizer this year!? And how can you overlook the fact Chandler missed um, 40+ games this year!? And how can you compare Rose of last year to this year? What was he going to do for Cartwright this year based on the first 16 games we saw? He only had one direction to go under Skiles. I actually see progression in Jamal whether its real or imagined. The guy at least "says the right things now". If he really believes him, then he becomes a guy we keep. Curry? You telling me he doesn't play like he's in better shape? Maybe when he starts acting like a pro it will all start to come together for him. Chandler? Sure, regression here especially compared to how he opened the season. Its clear thats due to injury though as even he acknowledged. Are you telling me Skiles hasn't made this backcourt look like it could be the backcourt of the future? What did Cartwright do with a similar JWill/Jamal combination? You say dirty laundry, I say the seeds are planted on what its going to take to be a professional in this city. Sometimes a little public embarrassment is just what the doctor ordered. And while we have the doctor here, maybe we could get a pulse on some of these guys. Do you really believe they haven't already tried til their blue in the face to get this stuff to change behind the scenes? Now, I know you've gotten into the habit of simply discounting what other posters have to say in response to your arguments. I suppose I would say you have a propensity to summarily dismiss those with opinions not reflective of your own. I'm just not sure if thats because you are such an incredibly gifted basketball intellect or you're not willing to defend your positions point by point. If you'd care to detail the regression/progression of Curry, Chandler and Crawford under Cartwright vs. Skiles I'd love to get your thoughts.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> read the board, read the newspapers. Only KC has criticized Skiles publicly. And I am sure Skiles approval rating among Bulls fans is north of 70%. he certainly hasnt earned that type of respect yet.


I do. Just because they're not criticizing him doesn't mean they're "hugging his nuts". 

As for the fans, sure why not? Bill was a little too laid back about the whole thing for a lot of fans. Not you've got someone who isn't afraid to get in the players faces --- call their unprofessionalism out if necessary. I'd say thats gonna be a hit after six years of this "garbage".

But, you still can't find ANY good in what Skiles has done?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> By omission are you suggesting Fizer last year = Fizer this year!? And how can you overlook the fact Chandler missed um, 40+ games this year!? And how can you compare Rose of last year to this year? What was he going to do for Cartwright this year based on the first 16 games we saw? He only had one direction to go under Skiles. I actually see progression in Jamal whether its real or imagined. The guy at least "says the right things now". If he really believes him, then he becomes a guy we keep. Curry? You telling me he doesn't play like he's in better shape? Maybe when he starts acting like a pro it will all start to come together for him. Chandler? Sure, regression here especially compared to how he opened the season. Its clear thats due to injury though as even he acknowledged. Are you telling me Skiles hasn't made this backcourt look like it could be the backcourt of the future? What did Cartwright do with a similar JWill/Jamal combination? You say dirty laundry, I say the seeds are planted on what its going to take to be a professional in this city. Sometimes a little public embarrassment is just what the doctor ordered. And while we have the doctor here, maybe we could get a pulse on some of these guys. Do you really believe they haven't already tried til their blue in the face to get this stuff to change behind the scenes? Now, I know you've gotten into the habit of simply discounting what other posters have to say in response to your arguments. I suppose I would say you have a propensity to summarily dismiss those with opinions not reflective of your own. I'm just not sure if thats because you are such an incredibly gifted basketball intellect or you're not willing to defend your positions point by point. If you'd care to detail the regression/progression of Curry, Chandler and Crawford under Cartwright vs. Skiles I'd love to get your thoughts.


Except for the last couple of sentences, which get a little too close to personal attack for these here friendly parts, I very strongly agree with your thoughts.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

rlucas, i don't really have any good theories on why he talks to the media the way he does. I will tell you that he was on the basketball topics his first years in Phoenix while they were winning. And they were winning believe me. He had pros to work with in Phoenix, not childcare issues. That dictates his comments, and i think he's right

Plus, if you'lle notice, he was never criticized on basketball issues with the Suns. JUst on his attitude from Blount. It has been surmised by Googs and Marion, that Colangelo put Skiles up to the tough guy routine.
I believe that a little bit

That last season when the Suns slipped, Skiles got really down on himself, but he never said anything bad about the guys. He questioned only himself, and if he was getting thru to them.

things are different here obviously. I think to have him say the things he does, really illustrates the depth of the problems with this roster. But thats Paxsons responsibility. Skiles is like the canary in the coal mine, and i think we underestimate the stuff he deals with. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to Skiles, Pip and Gill. Notice, the only people who have a public thing to say is E-Gone, and Fizer. Even Blount has come around, which lends credence to the Colangelo implication. Hmmmmmmm

whatever, i enjoy reading your intelligent posts r, even when you frustrate the hell out of me on Skiles. I can see the Bulls are making us more than edgy. But i expect Skiles to win you over. He has won me over, and I was more anti Skiles B$ he arrived than you currently are now. He's different, believe me. His bad traits aren't showing up. I think he's learned a lot, and the things he does and says are mostly appropriate. 

speaking of the rib contest, you impressed the hell out of me picking the Bulls over the Lakers. You will be lionized for that one if it works :grinning:


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> rlucas, i don't really have any good theories on why he talks to the media the way he does. I will tell you that he was on the basketball topics his first years in Phoenix while they were winning. And they were winning believe me. He had pros to work with in Phoenix, not childcare issues. That dictates his comments, and i think he's right
> 
> Plus, if you'lle notice, he was never criticized on basketball issues with the Suns. JUst on his attitude from Blount. It has been surmised by Googs and Marion, that Colangelo put Skiles up to the tough guy routine.
> ...


Haha, I chickened out I am sad to say and went back to the Lakers on that one. For me to win the ribs this month is going to require me to pick an upset, but I just changed my mind. The big 4 will be playing. Itll be too much. But I think this is your month on the ribs.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> But, you still can't find ANY good in what Skiles has done?


Skiles is clearly on some kind of ego trip...

He's had this rotating doghouse since he got here, and won't admit that...

He rather talk about our dirty laundry than talk about cleaning the product that is on the floor. 

I'm sick of this garbage of bringing a pro team to Chicago, ya Paul Shirley and friends will dress right, say all the right things, dive into ball racks and walls for practices to keep their jobs, but they can do that forever and we're still going to suck.

His offense sucks...

His substitution patterns are wtf...

He clearly doesn't help our guys be in the best position to win, especially when you consider our best SF sits the bench, but Linton Johnson and the rest of the Guam Recreational Over 20 League All-Stars can get on the floor.

We're not winning any championships with Skiles, do you honestly envision Skiles hoisting some kind of trophy?

He underacheived as a Phoenix coach, ya they won, but he had loads of talent on that team and couldn't get it done, why do you have faith he can with a grinder dominated team?

How did we get a steal in a coach that's never been rumored for another coaching job? 

We didn't bring in Hubie Brown, we didn't bring in a guy who could sell his system to the his players by first earning their respect.

He's anniliated almost everyone since he's gotten here, yet he expects guys to play their asses off for them?

Look we don't have the best players, but damnit even Atlanta can still go out and be somewhat comptetive and win a game here and there (even against good teams), it's time to stop putting everything on players and start looking at management and the coaches because it's management's job to bring in players that are going to help this team succeed and it's the coach's job to get the best out of the personnel management brings in.

Management brought in CRAP...

+

Coach plays CRAP..

=

WHY WE SUCK.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> I do. Just because they're not criticizing him doesn't mean they're "hugging his nuts".
> ...


But we are going backwards. if skiles continues at this rate, he will clip Floyd for the worst coach in our history. 

Again, Why have Crawford, Chandler and Curry regressed. outside of the trade, which should have helped them, they have gone backwards. What has changed? hmm, the coach. 

Now, i think Skiles has been nice for Kirk. Outside of that, what has he done? He is losing more then BC did, why is it that BC was a bum and Skiles knows what he is doing?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Skiles is clearly on some kind of ego trip...
> ...


This is right on. And there jusst isnt much answers to these questions. My gut is that there is still a bit of a honeymoon going on with the fans and Skiles. But by next years allstar break, he either will quit or they will be calling for his head. 

One last question. If you have season tickets and YOU PAY SKILES SALARY, are you happy right now that Linton, Dupree and Shirley are playing and not guys who might actually win a game for you? Dont you think those people who pay for the tickets actually deserve to see a team with a chance to win? I mean only 2 weeks ago he said playoffs and now what is he doing? Its not consistent


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> But we are going backwards. if skiles continues at this rate, he will clip Floyd for the worst coach in our history.
> ...


because Skiles has proved himself as knowledgable already, BC has proved nothing. A lot of people think BC got a raw deal, including me. He made his mistakes, but he got a raw deal from his team, players included.

what has changed? Jay Williams Tyson Chandler's injury. downgrades in talent with Yell and Rose to AD and JYD.
New system to learn by young unknowlegable players

r, they haven't really regressed either. They were godawful last year too. They still are. This is not a coaching issue. Skile can coach pros when they are ready to play. Its already proven.

the only question is if Skiles has learned about longevity as a coach. Stay tuned.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> hmm, some guys in Phoenix liked him, some didnt. Jason Kidd wasnt a big fan and neither was our own Corie Blount. Makes you think that might have had something to do with it. Googs and Penny liked him, I have read. He had a nice record out there, but he couldnt sell that team into disciplined basketball either.
> ...


Jason Kidd the coach killer? As for Blount, didn't they kiss and make up? I don't think Blount or Skiles had a problem in Chicago. I recall Blount actually complimenting Skiles saying he was a new coach in Phoenix, but had essentially calmed down in Chicago. 

Ok, results? For starters this team sucks. Its a worse team than last years and would likely be recognized as such by most of this board. If we're gonna drop the blame on anybody shouldn't it start at the top? Wasn't that the pitch when Krause was GM and everybody here hated him? Well, it shouldn't change now.

And lets get to the issue of playing these non-NBA guys like Dupree, Johnson and Shirley. So the argument is, WE HAVE TO PLAY THE GUYS WHO WILL GIVE US THE BEST CHANCE TO WIN. I particularly like this because its not grounded in any form of reality. THIS TEAM HAS LITTLE CHANCE TO WIN whether we play Crawford, Hinrich, Robinson, Chandler and Curry 48 minutes or 20 minutes. But what posters here would do is let the inmates run the asylum in hopes we could win about - oh, say 50 basis points more? Nah, you buy into the system and dedicate yourself to your profession or you ride the pines while we work on getting your sorry *** shipped out of town. Six years is enough of this crap. If its time to get out the broom, its time to get out the broom. 

Skiles says every day more and more guys are showing up early, shooting around, etc. He's said his team has been playing hard. He said they're better off tossing a loss like Detroit out of their mind and continuing to build on the games that preceded that in which they were in the hunt in the fourth quarter. He says he likes his team. He's shown us what could be a solid backcourt --- something many of us wanted. The guy is perceived by many as having a bright basketball mind. He doesn't appear to have the toxicity he had in Phoenix. You've got to pony up something more than you have to convince many of us that this guy deserves to be fired now. Especially when you don't EQUATE the players immaturity and unprofessionalism into the actions Paxson or Skiles have been forced to take. Acknowledgement alone is hardly enough.

Interesting quote from Mike Kahn - a guy whose not a Chicago Bull nut-hugger by any stretch of the imagination:



> John Paxson seems willing to give anybody and everybody a chance to win a job with the Bulls, and who can blame him? Lots of spoiled and overpaid athletes in this group.


No indictment of Paxson or Skiles there.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> 
> 
> Except for the last couple of sentences, which get a little too close to personal attack for these here friendly parts, I very strongly agree with your thoughts.


I'm definitely not trying to get personal and I've told Rlucas in PM. I'll try to refrain though.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> This is right on. And there jusst isnt much answers to these questions. My gut is that there is still a bit of a honeymoon going on with the fans and Skiles. But by next years allstar break, he either will quit or they will be calling for his head.
> ...


don't you think Skiles wants to have better players on the floor? This is only logical!

He has to coach for the beterment of the team over the long term. He has to coach for the long haul. He has to coach with his own *** on the line, not the fans. This has been done since the dawn of the modern era rlucas. This is called tearing it down and building it up after. You can't judge things based on a bloodletting until they turn the corner.

Skiles will not hold this team hostage to lack of pride effort and competetive spirit any longer. Support him on this. That will save the team, not E-Rob


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> 
> because Skiles has proved himself as knowledgable already, BC has proved nothing. A lot of people think BC got a raw deal, including me. He made his mistakes, but he got a raw deal from his team, players included.
> 
> ...


so are we to blame Pax for the downgrades? if so, Id buy that

Second of all, BC didnt have kirk to work with, who is an obvious upgrade to jwill based on performance

BC had his share of injuries too. In fact, I believe he had more injuries then Skiles had to deal with, particularly Fizer after he found his game

For whatever reason, Curry, who according to Skiles (who I have no idea how he knows these things since he didnt know Curry last year), was out of shape, still looked to be a better player to end last year then he does now. So did JC. And as Johnston pointed out, Chandler completely looks like he just has regressed under Skiles. 

So i think there is more then one question. But to answer your question. I just dont know. If it stays this bad, I bet he quits by allstar break next year. He left a phoenix team at 540 or something so its hard for me to fathom him staying on a team at 280 for long. But isnt this an issue as well? I mean, when we hire a coach, shouldnt we be hiring a guy we thing would have some longetivity? I mean with Skiles, there wasnt even a hint of it. Its not fair to the fans and its not fair to Skiles for him to be looked upon as a task master who will not last long enough to see better days.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> 
> don't you think Skiles wants to have better players on the floor? This is only logical!
> 
> ...


I cant fleet, i just cant mate. Ill tell you why. Some father somewhere works 70 hours a week and makes next to nothing. He saves for 2 bulls tickets to take his young son too a game. And when he gets to take his young son out to the game, what does he see? Shirley, Dupree and Linton? Do those guys give us a better shot at winning then Erob, Curry, Chandler or Crawford? No. Period. No. Now that guy pays Skiles salary. And in essence, is due Skiles best effort. And he isnt getting it. There is no supporting Skiles on this. Now should we get rid of Erob. yes. But that is for the summer. that is not for the fans who brave cold weather or sky high ticket prices to come out and watch this team play. What Skiles is guilty of here is ego. Plain and simple. Now the players are bums. And its Paxs job to take care of that. But until that day comes mate, he owes that father who busts his ***, like you do, our best team. And that father isnt getting it. When I have a worker who doesnt give me the best chance of succeeding I fire him. plain and simple.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

I like Skiles more than I like Pax but Ive seen him let his ego get in the way of a possible win more then once in the last few months .

If given a choice Im sure he would rather have a linuep of 

Curry
Marshall
Rose
Crawford
Hinrich 

than 

Curry
AD
Jyd
Crawford
Hinrich 


he likes a more perimter orientated game but the trade has stifled any flexibility .

I think his ideal team would play more like the Bucks are this year as opposed to a twin tower liineup.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> One last question. If you have season tickets and YOU PAY SKILES SALARY, are you happy right now that Linton, Dupree and Shirley are playing and not guys who might actually win a game for you? Dont you think those people who pay for the tickets actually deserve to see a team with a chance to win? I mean only 2 weeks ago he said playoffs and now what is he doing? Its not consistent


They wouldn't be watching a TEAM then either. Sure, they might see five guys with a better chance of putting the ball in the hole but they're a lot less likely to see five guys who actually play like they care about the TEAM or five guys who can actually rebound and defend. And by doing this, they'd be selling out on trying to instill any kind of a program that has any type of consequences. What exactly would be the impetus for anybody to try to buy into anything they're selling at that point? Please do tell - since that was so right on.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

i just think changing the team starting right now is his best effort. He's not coaching for a win today, he coaching for multiple Ws manana. He's coaching Eddy and Jamal by keeping E-Rob on an island where he belongs. On a desert island with no food and water

truthfully, i don't give a rats *** about a busboy selling his records for a Bulls ticket. Hell, don't even go to a Bulls game. Don't support management and ownership until they put a decent product out there. Boycott. 
and If you show up, expect blood and guts from your coach, and no nonsense, and its ugly right now. If that Dad can't handle it, buy his kids some Backstreet boys CDs or Clay Aiken if he wants to punish the offspring:laugh:


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> They wouldn't be watching a TEAM then either. Sure, they might see five guys with a better chance of putting the ball in the hole but they're a lot less likely to see five guys who actually play like they care about the TEAM or five guys who can actually rebound and defend. And by doing this, they'd be selling out on trying to instill any kind of a program that has any type of consequences. What exactly would be the impetus for anybody to try to buy into anything they're selling at that point? Please do tell - since that was so right on.


read my last post. I cant put it any better. as fans, we are due the best chance to win a game. For lack of a better term, and no disrespect intended, its delusional to think Shirley, Dupree or Lint give us a better shot at winning then Fizer, Erob, Crawford or Chandler. Maybe the Bulls ought to give refunds to those hard working parents who save up for a night at the stadium. Skiles owes them our best effort. And he isnt giving it to them.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> as arenas said once. How is it that Coach A, who was an idiot, win more games then coach B, and coach B is a genius?


I'm with you, not against you ;-)

To add to your question, how is it that Coach A who has worse players wins more games than Coach B who has better ones?

(I'm thinking Sloan.... The Jazz were pre-season favorites to be one of the worst teams in the NBA).


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> i just think changing the team starting right now is his best effort. He's not coaching for a win today, he coaching for multiple Ws manana. He's coaching Eddy and Jamal by keeping E-Rob on an island where he belongs. On a desert island with no food and water
> 
> truthfully, i don't give a rats *** about a busboy selling his records for a Bulls ticket. Hell, don't even go to a Bulls game. Don't support management and ownership until they put a decent product out there. Boycott.
> and If you show up, expect blood and guts from your coach, and no nonsense, and its ugly right now. If that Dad can't handle it, buy his kids some Backstreet boys CDs or Clay Aiken if he wants to punish the offspring:laugh:


But that isnt the way it works mate. I am sure that father who drives a bus doesnt care. but he has a son. And that son is a Bulls fan, probably from the days of Jordan. And now that its possible to get tickets, that father wants to reward that son with a game. And that father and son are entitled to our coach giving us the best chance to win now. The personnel will take care of itself this summer. I am talking about now. When someone intentionally screws up, there is a couple of ways to handle it. Give those fans a refund, or find a coach who will give it an honest 100% effort. The fans of the Bulls are entitled to it. And they arent getting it because petty egos have gotten in the way. And part, and a big part of it, is our coaches ego


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> BC had his share of injuries too. In fact, I believe he had more injuries then Skiles had to deal with, particularly Fizer after he found his game


And he hasn't found his game since. 

At least Cartwright had a guy around who was being talked about as a sixth man of the year candidate. How many games did Fizer help win last year? We know he hasn't helped win any this year. What has Fizer looked like this year under Skiles complete tenure? Who has Skiles had thats looked like a sixth man of the year candidate? And while we're on that subject, didn't Cartwright once upon a time coach Elton Brand, Ron Artest and Brad Miller? So how much of that 50 basis point lead can we attribute to having three guys who became all-stars on his roster?


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> read my last post. I cant put it any better. as fans, we are due the best chance to win a game. For lack of a better term, and no disrespect intended, its delusional to think Shirley, Dupree or Lint give us a better shot at winning then Fizer, Erob, Crawford or Chandler. Maybe the Bulls ought to give refunds to those hard working parents who save up for a night at the stadium. Skiles owes them our best effort. And he isnt giving it to them.


i don't a gre, read my last post to see why. Boycott the Bulls until they get a product worth watching. And Skiles is being proactive. He's not waiting for next season to put competetive spirit on the floor. I don't want to see E-Rob busted ***.

Its buyer Beware, You aren't surprised when you go, because Skiles is telling you the deal. Don't go is my answer. But things are going to change around there, because Skiles is coaching and demanding competeive spirit. Make no mistake. Weep not for the Dolts in the seats. They shouldn';t be ther if they want to see E-Rob. If they do, they don't have the best interests of the Bulls at heart. They are more interested in other things. The best interest of the Bulls is in coaching Eddy and Jamal the right way, and telling E-Gone to shove off


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> And he hasn't found his game since.
> ...


You just proved my point. BC used Fizer in such a way that got the best out of him. Skiles? He couldnt find Fizer to save his life. Fizer regressed under Skiles. So how is that good coaching exactly? Touche

BTW, I saw Fizer have a real good game against Sacramento or Memphis and then watched him get a DNP-CD the next night. Thats not what I call real coaching


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

KC Johnson on the Bulls 3.12.04 



_Thanks for your questions. Four weeks to go._

KC phoning it in.   no, seriously, some decent questions this week...but i think he's off the mark slightly on this one (and of course that is just my singular opinion):



> *With the current player movement happening with the Bulls, who are the players most likely to be around next year and who will most likely not be wearing a Bulls uniform next season?* -- Guy Geller, Chicago
> 
> It's tough to say because Paxson will definitely try to trade some players this summer. And who knows what Charlotte will do in the expansion draft. But let's go down the list. I think Kirk Hinrich, Jerome Williams, Linton Johnson, Antonio Davis, Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler, Chris Jefferies and Eddie Robinson will be on the team. I think Jamal Crawford will either be traded or sign with another team. I think Rick Brunson, Kendall Gill, Ronald Dupree, Paul Shirley and Marcus Fizer will be playing elsewhere. And I think Scottie Pippen will retire. But I'm not a GM. I'm a writer making educated guesses. We'll see.


IMO, E-rob is gone along with Chandler. And please Lord, how is Chris Jeffries helping the cause?..I know his salary is guaranteed but we should eat it and get rid of him too. Dupree could stick.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> 
> i don't a gre, read my last post to see why. Boycott the Bulls until they get a product worth watching. And Skiles is being proactive. He's not waiting for next season to put competetive spirit on the floor. I don't want to see E-Rob busted ***.
> 
> Its buyer Beware, You aren't surprised when you go, because Skiles is telling you the deal. Don't go is my answer. But things are going to change around there, because Skiles is coaching and demanding competeive spirit. Make no mistake. Weep not for the Dolts in the seats. They shouldn';t be ther if they want to see E-Rob. If they do, they don't have the best interests of the Bulls at heart. They are more interested in other things. The best interest of the Bulls is in coaching Eddy and Jamal the right way, and telling E-Gone to shove off


No Skiles isnt. 2 weeks ago he said playoffs. that same weekend he said he was surprised when Erob missed. And now he is telling us the deal? No he isnt. he is changing his tune. There is no consistency.


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

Good News for Eddy Curry:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040312/ap_on_re_us/low_sugar_doughnut


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> Good News for Eddy Curry:
> 
> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040312/ap_on_re_us/low_sugar_doughnut


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> No Skiles isnt. 2 weeks ago he said playoffs. that same weekend he said he was surprised when Erob missed. And now he is telling us the deal? No he isnt. he is changing his tune. There is no consistency.


you are confused. Thats most likely due to the fact that we fans don't have all the information. Or the full explanation. I've seen enough over the last three years to hazard a guess. I am not confused. If anything has wavered, it must have been E-Rob.

you truly think that if E-Rob was doing what he is supposed to do, he wouldn't play? That doesn't make sense r


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> I cant fleet, i just cant mate. Ill tell you why. Some father somewhere works 70 hours a week and makes next to nothing. He saves for 2 bulls tickets to take his young son too a game. And when he gets to take his young son out to the game, what does he see? Shirley, Dupree and Linton? Do those guys give us a better shot at winning then Erob, Curry, Chandler or Crawford? No. Period. No. Now that guy pays Skiles salary. And in essence, is due Skiles best effort. And he isnt getting it. There is no supporting Skiles on this. Now should we get rid of Erob. yes. But that is for the summer. that is not for the fans who brave cold weather or sky high ticket prices to come out and watch this team play. What Skiles is guilty of here is ego. Plain and simple. Now the players are bums. And its Paxs job to take care of that. But until that day comes mate, he owes that father who busts his ***, like you do, our best team. And that father isnt getting it. When I have a worker who doesnt give me the best chance of succeeding I fire him. plain and simple.


Let me ask you this. Who has more invested in this team? Reinsdorf and his mates or us as the paying fan? Do you believe Reinsdorf is Donald Sterling or do you believe he will pay for his team (remember when Jordan alone made about 35 million) ? Assuming you acknowledged Reinsdorf has more invested, why exactly would he let Paxson and Skiles run his operation into the ground when expectations under the Krause regime for this year were all pointing up? Do you think attendance will be up or down next year? Again, assuming you answered down why would Reinsdorf turn off the paying fan with the likes of Lint, Dupree and Shirley when he knows he'll be paying for it next year? Do you really think people are going to be full of hope come next year barring some major activity over the summer? 

Nah, I don't buy this feel good thing you're putting out. If Reinsdorf and other sports owners felt so much concern for the fans it wouldn't cost $250 to take you're family to a game to watch guys who couldn't give a **** about their profession but will make more in their brief careers than most of America will in their lifetime.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> No Skiles isnt. 2 weeks ago he said playoffs. that same weekend he said he was surprised when Erob missed. And now he is telling us the deal? No he isnt. he is changing his tune. There is no consistency.


coaches almost always talk playoffs until they're mathematically impossible. I don't think that is really here or there.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> 
> you are confused. Thats most likely due to the fact that we fans don't have all the information. Or the full explanation. I've seen enough over the last three years to hazard a guess. I am not confused. If anything has wavered, it must have been E-Rob.
> 
> you truly think that if E-Rob was doing what he is supposed to do, he wouldn't play? That doesn't make sense r


What I know is that he was playing great and then stopped playing altogether. if Erob did something wrong, which Erob claims he doesnt know why, then we are owed an explanation


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> But that isnt the way it works mate. I am sure that father who drives a bus doesnt care. but he has a son. And that son is a Bulls fan, probably from the days of Jordan. And now that its possible to get tickets, that father wants to reward that son with a game. And that father and son are entitled to our coach giving us the best chance to win now. The personnel will take care of itself this summer. I am talking about now. When someone intentionally screws up, there is a couple of ways to handle it. Give those fans a refund, or find a coach who will give it an honest 100% effort. The fans of the Bulls are entitled to it. And they arent getting it because petty egos have gotten in the way. And part, and a big part of it, is our coaches ego


Sorry Mate - GOTCHA.

You've got to be kidding me. You're taking Skiles to task for not giving 100% effort by playing players who aren't giving 100% effort!

Do you not see the IRONY in your position?

Wheres the ERob, I'm afraid to drive the lane quote when you need it. :laugh:


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> Let me ask you this. Who has more invested in this team? Reinsdorf and his mates or us as the paying fan? Do you believe Reinsdorf is Donald Sterling or do you believe he will pay for his team (remember when Jordan alone made about 35 million) ? Assuming you acknowledged Reinsdorf has more invested, why exactly would he let Paxson and Skiles run his operation into the ground when expectations under the Krause regime for this year were all pointing up? Do you think attendance will be up or down next year? Again, assuming you answered down why would Reinsdorf turn off the paying fan with the likes of Lint, Dupree and Shirley when he knows he'll be paying for it next year? Do you really think people are going to be full of hope come next year barring some major activity over the summer?
> ...


Your tone is getting a little testy

Let me tell you about JR for a second. he doesnt care about the bulls very much. he got the Bulls as part of buying the sox and has admitted that he isnt a basketball fan. Now also, those seats are sold for next year, or atleast the money making ones, already. So he could care less. My guess is if the Pax and Skiles shenanigans actually hits his wallet, he will dump Frick and Frack as quickly as he dumped Hawk Harrelson as GM of the Sox. 

Again, the fans are entitled to better. And they are entitled to their coach giving them the best chance to win when they pay for the tickets. Anyone in the business world will tell you that you must do your best for the customer. Can you say with all honesty that Skiles is doing his best? C'mon


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> Sorry Mate - GOTCHA.
> ...


Does Erob give us a better chance then Dupree? Ask the Sacramento Kings. Erob is a bum. but he gives us a better chance at winning. a blind person can tell you that.

Why hasnt Skiles gotten anything out of Fizer? why was BC able too? Isnt that part of coaching? I mean fizer was fat and out of shape last year and played well after a slow start. Skiles doesnt even try to give him a shot. And lets not talk about injuries. He has had some decent games since he came back. but the coach doesnt give him a chance to find a rythm. You prove my point so easily.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

I don't buy the whole play Curry, Crawford, etc because they give us the best chance to win. I've said this before and I'll say it again. On one side you have very talented, albiet young, players who really don't put forth a maximum effort for a sustained period of time. Those guys aren't going to win you many games. And they haven't. On the other side you have a group of players who don't have all that much talent but they play like there's no tomorrow. Unfortunatly, talent wins in this league. Those guys won't win you many games either. So what's a coach to do? Skiles plays the Dupress of the world on games where our other young talented players aren't trying all that hard. I've got to believe all that Skiles wants is for players like Curry, E-Rob and Fizer (see - I left Crawford off the list because I didn't want to piss off the JC is God contingent!) to play with the passion and intensity that our Alphabet Crew does. But they don't and to complicate things, one never knows when theses guys are going to decide to play and when they aren't. Hence you see some odd PT allocations. If some of our core players would simply give the effort that their jobs demand, we aren't having this debate.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> You just proved my point. BC used Fizer in such a way that got the best out of him. Skiles? He couldnt find Fizer to save his life. Fizer regressed under Skiles. So how is that good coaching exactly? Touche
> 
> BTW, I saw Fizer have a real good game against Sacramento or Memphis and then watched him get a DNP-CD the next night. Thats not what I call real coaching


So it was the way Cartwright used Fizer eh? His sorry year this year had nothing to do with his looking like crap coming into the season and still playing like a stiff after the injury. Did you make any comparison to Fizer in the first sixteen games of this year versus the rest of the season under Skiles or do you remember how he was in Big Bill's doghouse again? I'm almost STUNNED that you can actually somehow find a way to lay Fizer's season at Skiles feet. Btw, how do you know the game after his nice outing wasn't the one where Skiles tried to put him in and he was off pinching a loaf as TB would say? :laugh:


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> I don't buy the whole play Curry, Crawford, etc because they give us the best chance to win. I've said this before and I'll say it again. On one side you have very talented, albiet young, players who really don't put forth a maximum effort for a sustained period of time. Those guys aren't going to win you many games. And they haven't. On the other side you have a group of players who don't have all that much talent but they play like there's no tomorrow. Unfortunatly, talent wins in this league. Those guys won't win you many games either. So what's a coach to do? Skiles plays the Dupress of the world on games where our other young talented players aren't trying all that hard. I've got to believe all that Skiles wants is for players like Curry, E-Rob and Fizer (see - I left Crawford off the list because I didn't want to piss off the JC is God contingent!) to play with the passion and intensity that our Alphabet Crew does. But they don't and to complicate things, one never knows when theses guys are going to decide to play and when they aren't. Hence you see some odd PT allocations. If some of our core players would simply give the effort that their jobs demand, we aren't having this debate.


If they would give the effort, Skiles isnt even the coach! Damn them


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Does Erob give us a better chance then Dupree? Ask the Sacramento Kings. Erob is a bum. but he gives us a better chance at winning. a blind person can tell you that.
> ...


i'll just refer you to Pete Myers, who told the team in essence: we are thru adjusting to you, now you will adjust to us.

call it ego tripping if you like, but this isn't a veteran proven team. These are immature, uncompetive babies. You don't adjust to crapola


----------



## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> It's tough to say because Paxson will definitely try to trade some players this summer. And who knows what Charlotte will do in the expansion draft. But let's go down the list. I think Kirk Hinrich, Jerome Williams, Linton Johnson, Antonio Davis, Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler, Chris Jefferies and Eddie Robinson will be on the team. I think Jamal Crawford will either be traded or sign with another team. I think Rick Brunson, Kendall Gill, Ronald Dupree, Paul Shirley and Marcus Fizer will be playing elsewhere. And I think Scottie Pippen will retire. But I'm not a GM. I'm a writer making educated guesses. We'll see.


Ah, Chris Jeffries - a MikeDC favorite. I'm sure he'll be glad to hear the news. :laugh:


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> So it was the way Cartwright used Fizer eh? His sorry year this year had nothing to do with his looking like crap coming into the season and still playing like a stiff after the injury. Did you make any comparison to Fizer in the first sixteen games of this year versus the rest of the season under Skiles or do you remember how he was in Big Bill's doghouse again? I'm almost STUNNED that you can actually somehow find a way to lay Fizer's season at Skiles feet. Btw, how do you know the game after his nice outing wasn't the one where Skiles tried to put him in and he was off pinching a loaf as TB would say? :laugh:


first off, Fizer denies he was in the bathroom and basically called Skiles on it, skiles never responded. So it sounds like the ego machine is now making stuff up

Second of all, Fizer was crap last year too. But BC found a way to make something out of nothing. Something Skiles didnt or couldnt or wouldnt do. So how is that great coaching? Take an asset like Fizer and run him into the ground. Genius on Skiles part. Again you prove my point.

Lets take another one. chandler. What has he doen since Skiles got the job? nothing. big step backwards. With BC, he was rebounding and playing with tenacity. Now he looks tentative. Part of that is bickering over a shorts issue. Chandler is a good kid who deserves the benefit of the doubt. But he gets the hook. Sure, some of Tysons problems are injuries. but in a lost year, how do you get him back on track? you play him, you dont give him DNP-CDs. Again, another example of mismanagement from Skiles


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> 
> i'll just refer you to Pete Myers, who told the team in essence: we are thru adjusting to you, now you will adjust to us.
> 
> call it ego tripping if you like, but this isn't a veteran proven team. These are immature, uncompetive babies. You don't adjust to crapola


so why not just give everyone a refund and mail it in. playing Shirley, dupree and linto does nothing for us and proves nothing. Those guys wont even be with the club next year. In fact, not showcasing Erob makes it more likely he will be here for the duration. real long term thinking


----------



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> Ah, Chris Jeffries - a MikeDC favorite. I'm sure he'll be glad to hear the news. :laugh:


yes!  but just to be clear - the way the quotation appears is not entirely accurate for those who are playing at home...KC johnson said that, not me. thanks. and now back to our originally scheduled programming. i am enjoying the rlucas/nenv/fleet banter on this thread.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Your tone is getting a little testy


Really? You can feel free to PM me when you think so. I'll adjust. I think yours is a little too condescending since we're bringing it up. I'll adjust if you will.


----------



## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Your tone is getting a little testy


Why you gotta air our dirty laundry in public mate? :laugh: 

C'mon, you gotta laugh.


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> Really? You can feel free to PM me when you think so. I'll adjust. I think yours is a little too condescending since we're bringing it up. I'll adjust if you will.


consider it done mate


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> Why you gotta air our dirty laundry in public mate? :laugh:
> ...


im laughing mate. its all in good fun


----------



## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> first off, Fizer denies he was in the bathroom and basically called Skiles on it, skiles never responded. So it sounds like the ego machine is now making stuff up
> 
> ...


no Fizer didn't deny it. he said he didn't know it happened. But he was sick that week. So what the hell r? this is an ego league. Its a mans game. Don't tell me coaches aren't supposed to have egos. I don't care if Skiles has an ego. I expect it, i crave it. Don't tell me Riley doesn't have an ego. or Phil. In fact Phil admitted it when Payton criticized him.
And i think its overblown by you. Skiles was even praised by E-rob for fairness. Jamal and Eddy too. Why ar you having a problem?
I say good. THere is no problem here r, and i think you guys are reaching big time on this. If E-rob is complaining now, I'd say its because he's a crank. What i don't get is why you side with a crank


----------



## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> I don't buy the whole play Curry, Crawford, etc because they give us the best chance to win. I've said this before and I'll say it again. On one side you have very talented, albiet young, players who really don't put forth a maximum effort for a sustained period of time. Those guys aren't going to win you many games. And they haven't. On the other side you have a group of players who don't have all that much talent but they play like there's no tomorrow. Unfortunatly, talent wins in this league. Those guys won't win you many games either. So what's a coach to do? Skiles plays the Dupress of the world on games where our other young talented players aren't trying all that hard. I've got to believe all that Skiles wants is for players like Curry, E-Rob and Fizer (see - I left Crawford off the list because I didn't want to piss off the JC is God contingent!) to play with the passion and intensity that our Alphabet Crew does. But they don't and to complicate things, one never knows when theses guys are going to decide to play and when they aren't. Hence you see some odd PT allocations. If some of our core players would simply give the effort that their jobs demand, we aren't having this debate.


:clap:


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

Skiles is building for the future. He is setting an example, now. Yes, he said playoffs a few weeks ago, but only in terms of not ruling it out. Obviously he can't say that there's no way this team makes the playoffs. He can't. No coach has ever said, "we're tanking." Even Danny Ainge said, "playoffs nice, lottery better." That was the most extreme he was willing to go.

The future of this team lies with Curry and Chandler (maybe) and he can't play players who don't practice (Erob), because that in effect tells our young kids that you can not work and still play. 

I feel sorry for the people who work their asses off for tickets, but I believe that they would much rather have a winning team down the road than instant gratification right now. I highly doubt that Erob would make a huge difference anyway. 

Chandler has been injured, and he had a very limited skill set in the first place. That is not Skiles' fault.


----------



## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> 
> i'll just refer you to Pete Myers, who told the team in essence: we are thru adjusting to you, now you will adjust to us.
> 
> call it ego tripping if you like, but this isn't a veteran proven team. These are immature, uncompetive babies. You don't adjust to crapola


Well said. Nice job by Pete Myers too!


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Excuses; No Vision


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> 
> no Fizer didn't deny it. he said he didn't know it happened. But he was sick that week. So what the hell r? this is an ego league. Its a mans game. Don't tell me coaches aren't supposed to have egos. I don't care if Skiles has an ego. I expect it, i crave it. Don't tell me Riley doesn't have an ego. or Phil. In fact Phil admitted it when Payton criticized him.
> And i think its overblown by you. Skiles was even praised by E-rob for fairness. Jamal and Eddy too. Why ar you having a problem?
> I say good. THere is no problem here r, and i think you guys are reaching big time on this. If E-rob is complaining now, I'd say its because he's a crank. What i don't get is why you side with a crank


No, I never sided with a crank. i sided with the people who deserve better Fleet. Lets get this straight now. i have been bashing this roster for months. And have given Pax a real bashing here too. So dont label me as a fan of Erob or this team. But understand that Skiles owes it to the paying fans to try and win. if you think that is what he is doing then so be it. but I have to tell you that Paul Shirley doesnt give us a better chance to win then Tyson Chandler. And when I dont see an employee putting his best foot forward, that is grounds for dismissal. A hard working democrat like yourself (always have to get that plug in there for our party) has to appreciate this. To give Skiles a free pass, well, do I need to make another political analogy? 

By the way, Fizer denied it and said it was BS. And Skiles never responded


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> Excuses; No Vision


a little bit of a low blow. NE/NV is playing by the rules


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

You guys are delusional...

How could anyone say Curry, Crawford, etc. doesn't give us the best chance to win when they are our best players?

Paul Shirley, Linton, Dupree, and company can go out there and play their asses off, that doesn't mean they are going to win, it doesn't even mean they're going to be in the game.

It's like a kid who studies for 24 hours a day for a week for an exam, he can put in that work, but that doesn't mean he's going to get an A on the test.

I don't want Skiles to kiss our young guys asses, but you're not developing them when you have nobodies on the court instead of them.

You're not even developing them by putting a team together where they are your only hopes, and the rest of the guys are practice dummies.

Skiles has jerked around our younger, best players (except for Hinrich), meanwhile praises the nobodies, and won't lash out on some of the vets when they do deserve it.

There's favoritism, there's double standards, there's bull**** all throughout this organization, this group of players, and that's why we're not successful.

It starts from up top, we don't have it up top, and that shows.


----------



## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> first off, Fizer denies he was in the bathroom and basically called Skiles on it, skiles never responded. So it sounds like the ego machine is now making stuff up
> 
> ...


On Fizer, I think both parties are to blame. Fizer hasn't been the same player since his injury. I would tend to think that Marcus is the kind of player Skiles really doesn't like and so, yes, there is some ego going on there. Fizer is a talented kid who's just never fit in. I think Marcus mailed it in first and Skiles simply helped him along. Everybody and their brother knows that Fizer has no long-term future and so he didn't play. He quit working and Skiles quit playing him. Which one of those events preceeded the other, I'll never know. I somehow think they occurred simultaneously.

On Chandler I will flat-out disagree with you. He's not the same player but that's hardly Skiles fault. The guy was injured when Skiles took over. He's had to sit out for half the season and while sitting has gotten out of shape. I also think the organization has basically taken the stance of letting him finish out the season but not playing him heavy minutes simply because they don't want him to reinjure his back. He's still the same toothpick that he was to start the season and if you play him 35 mins a game from here on out he may well reinjure that back again which will simply set him further back in his development. Why take the chance? Get him out there to play but don't overdo it. There's no real point in getting him heavy minutes now. The kid will need the summer to seriously work out and regain his confidence.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> a little bit of a low blow. NE/NV is playing by the rules


Totally tongue in cheek. A play on his name, no doubt.

I like my version better is all ;-)


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> On Fizer, I think both parties are to blame. Fizer hasn't been the same player since his injury. I would tend to think that Marcus is the kind of player Skiles really doesn't like and so, yes, there is some ego going on there. Fizer is a talented kid who's just never fit in. I think Marcus mailed it in first and Skiles simply helped him along. Everybody and their brother knows that Fizer has no long-term future and so he didn't play. He quit working and Skiles quit playing him. Which one of those events preceeded the other, I'll never know. I somehow think they occurred simultaneously.
> ...


but a DNP-CD for a shorts incident that happened the night before? This isnt the way to bring him back.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rwj333</b>!
> Skiles is building for the future. He is setting an example, now. Yes, he said playoffs a few weeks ago, but only in terms of not ruling it out. Obviously he can't say that there's no way this team makes the playoffs. He can't. No coach has ever said, "we're tanking." Even Danny Ainge said, "playoffs nice, lottery better." That was the most extreme he was willing to go.
> 
> The future of this team lies with Curry and Chandler (maybe) and he can't play players who don't practice (Erob), because that in effect tells our young kids that you can not work and still play.
> ...


What is Skiles building for the future?

A lot of hardworking guys but no talent?

You don't get anywhere without talent, plain and simple.

As far as Chandler goes, well I don't know, under Cartwright he played a hell of a lot better, now he plays out there with no confidence. I'm not laying that at Skiles doorstep, but it's time to stop using the injury excuse.

Erob is our best SF, I don't care what any of you say because it doesn't change that fact.

2 weeks ago he was playing, he was contributing, he's always been the same about practice, about his superstitions, now there is a problem?

Skiles need to worry less about making examples and more about winning some games, at least being competetive.


----------



## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> No, I never sided with a crank. i sided with the people who deserve better Fleet. Lets get this straight now. i have been bashing this roster for months. And have given Pax a real bashing here too. So dont label me as a fan of Erob or this team. But understand that Skiles owes it to the paying fans to try and win. if you think that is what he is doing then so be it. but I have to tell you that Paul Shirley doesnt give us a better chance to win then Tyson Chandler. And when I dont see an employee putting his best foot forward, that is grounds for dismissal. A hard working democrat like yourself (always have to get that plug in there for our party) has to appreciate this. To give Skiles a free pass, well, do I need to make another political analogy?


Democrats yyyyyes!!!!. 
I say there should be no paying fans. Boycott! 
I think Skiles ows it to the fans to fix the team, and i think he is. This is still a business, but playing E-Rob doesn't win ballgames for us anyways. I think coaching the kids the right way is best for us, no time to waste.
Good points on the paying public though. But i'm roofless..i mean ruthffless

enjoyed talking buddy, but i gotta get some things done, speaking of the grind


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> And when I dont see an employee putting his best foot forward, that is grounds for dismissal. A hard working democrat like yourself (always have to get that plug in there for our party) has to appreciate this. To give Skiles a free pass, well, do I need to make another political analogy?


See, we ARE getting somewhere! I'd call this progress. 

You are ready to pounce on employee Skiles, but are ready to reward employee ERob. Is this not the heart of the matter? Sure you've added the cause of "for the paying fan", but nobody gives a crap about the fan anyway. Coaches, players, etc. only like fans because it puts them on a bigger stage, it makes what they're doing seem more important. Do you really think they give a crap about the poor kid who came to see them when they get destroyed by 30 points? Do you think thats keeping anybody but the coach and gm up at night? 

Nah, lets get back to your quote. You can't dismiss these guys because of the CBA and you can't reward them as you'd do - in the name of the fan.. so what is a coach to do?


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> You guys are delusional...
> 
> How could anyone say Curry, Crawford, etc. doesn't give us the best chance to win when they are our best players?
> ...


Son, they give us just as good a chance of losing. I'm not going to get into shot selection and the like with you because you simply won't listen.

There are two sides to this game. Offense and defense. I've seen far too many games where we're somewhat close in the fourth quarter and all we do is trade baskets. Sure, Jamal may hit that big shot (and he has) but he's as likely to miss that shot also. Same with Eddy but even moreso. On the defensive side of things you simply cannot have guys who aren't putting forth maximum effort to deny their man. Curry is a flat-out terrible post defender and Jamal is either not strong enough to get around screens and/or he just doesn't try enough. It just isn't smart to have players on the floor that MIGHT make a shot and who CAN'T stop a player.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fleetwood macbull</b>!
> 
> Democrats yyyyyes!!!!.
> I say there should be no paying fans. Boycott!
> ...


fleet, another classic rlucas/fleet debate. i look forward to the next one. have a good rest of your afternoon


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> a little bit of a low blow. NE/NV is playing by the rules


Hey in two days you've each knocked my screen name, but I do appreciate your show of solidarity.


----------



## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> but a DNP-CD for a shorts incident that happened the night before? This isnt the way to bring him back.


You don't know if that was the case. Show me anywhere which states from Skiles or Chandler that Tyson sat in DC because his shorts were unprofessional. Until that time it is merely speculation on your part and as such you cannot treat it as a statement of fact to support your agenda.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Does someone really have a legitimate reason as to why ERob isn't playing?

Seriously...

You guys trash this guy, but he's been productive since like December...

He should be our starting SF, I'm sick of seeing JYD trot out there and Linton...

We all know how ERob is about practice, about his superstitions, but NOW there is a problem?

2 weeks ago there wasn't, really up until the Sacramento game, everything was fine....


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> See, we ARE getting somewhere! I'd call this progress.
> ...


the fans are the boss. Now has erob done something wrong? I mean, he gets to practice on time and leaves when its over. So he isnt hardworking. but is he a drug addict or someone who misses games or a threat to society. Sure, his comments are stupid, but has he really done something wrong? 

And Erobs situation will take care of itself in time. Skiles has no control over it. He was given a hand and he owes it to the paying fans to try and win. If erob didnt go to practice, suspend him. But thats not the case. How many of us put extra time at work? Really?

And what about Chandler? Or Fizer? Or Crawford? Should Brunson outplay JC ever? Cmon. Skiles is an employee who isnt doing his job. Employees who dont do their job get fired. The other employees, the players, will be fired sure enough as well. But you deal with what your given, and can you say that Skiles is giving it his best shot?


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> Son, they give us just as good a chance of losing. I'm not going to get into shot selection and the like with you because you simply won't listen.
> ...


Cut it with the Son talk, you're not my Papi, and please don't try to act like it...

You're completely lost and our another word if you believe that garbage you just posted. 

EC, JC, TC have faults, but you could fill me with antifreeze and I still wouldn't want Dupree, Shirley, Linton, Brunson, etc. out on the floor before them.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> You don't know if that was the case. Show me anywhere which states from Skiles or Chandler that Tyson sat in DC because his shorts were unprofessional. Until that time it is merely speculation on your part and as such you cannot treat it as a statement of fact to support your agenda.


agenda? its an opinion. Nowhere did I claim it as fact. but all the newspapers, whom we should believe cause they like Skiles, pretty much insinuated the 2 were correlated


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> What is Skiles building for the future?
> ...


What is Skiles building for the future? -- A winning team? A better team? A work ethic for our players that don't work? 

I agree you don't get anywhere without talent. I agree Erob is our best SF right now. Chandler has been injured, he has not played for a long time, and has very little skill and experience. 

I'm guessing Erob wasn't setting the best example for our players. He was playing but not practicing, not working as hard as he could. The message he was sending was that you could play but not work hard. Skiles had to stop that. If Curry and Chandler see Erob out there playing but not practicing on his game that tells them they can do the same thing. Why bother to practice?

He's trying to set a precedent for Curry and Chandler to earn their playing time, instead of it just being given to them. And in effect become better players.

Would winning a couple games make any more difference? A little, but the damage that comes with disregarding the rules and standards would be far worse.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> Son, they give us just as good a chance of losing. I'm not going to get into shot selection and the like with you because you simply won't listen.
> ...


Its also sort of funny when this "non-NBA" personnel like Lint can get back to back 14 rebound games when Curry can get 1 rebound in a game. Sort of funny that Dupree can harass a guy into an awful shooting night while ERob can get torched. You're right, the "NBA" personnel can score and can't defend and the "non-NBA" personnel can defend but can't score. 

Maybe some folks need to step back and say if the ORGANIZATION is willing to play 3 guys who weren't even in the NBA over all these "cornerstones of the future" we sure as ought to wonder about how good these cornerstones really are.

Perhaps the kool-aid at the Berto center ran out long before it ran out at bbb.net.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> Son, they give us just as good a chance of losing. I'm not going to get into shot selection and the like with you because you simply won't listen.
> ...


the use of Son here is a little bit over the top. just my 2 cents


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rwj333</b>!
> 
> 
> What is Skiles building for the future? -- A winning team? A better team? A work ethic for our players that don't work?
> ...


Are you serious?

So right now we're building a winning team? A better team?

Work ethic? what do we know, we're not at the Berto Center to see what goes on...

Who's work ethic are we questioning?

I'm tired of people using the TC injury BS, in that case, why don't we use it for Fizer as well?

ERob, as I've said before, up until 2 weeks ago ERob was doing everything right, now all of a sudden he can't get into a game?


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Cut it with the Son talk, you're not my Papi, and please don't try to act like it...
> ...


I'd like those guys out on the floor too. And don't drink the anti-freeze - I hear it's not good for you.

One question from your all-knowing self. Are you telling me that Eddy Curry is even a decent post defender and rebounder? Are you telling me that Jamal Crawford is a good on the ball defender? (well, that's two things..)

Until they get there, there will be times when they shouldn't play. And yes, I beleive the garbage I spew.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> Maybe some folks need to step back and say if the ORGANIZATION is willing to play 3 guys who weren't even in the NBA over all these "cornerstones of the future" we sure as ought to wonder about how good these cornerstones really are.


B.S.

Those "folks" would be idiots...

Wow Lint can get 10 rebounds in a game, big damn deal, if he was that big of an asset, the Bulls wouldn't be the only team in the league interested in him.


----------



## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Does someone really have a legitimate reason as to why ERob isn't playing?
> 
> Seriously...
> ...


Good point. I dont really know why it was a sudden thing like that, that Erob should suddenly stop playing. We don't know. And, yes, his practice habits are detrimental to the team. Veterans like Antonio Davis- his development is limited... it's hardly possible that he could develop into a better player. Erob is still young, and though he won't, he could still get better.


----------



## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> the use of Son here is a little bit over the top. just my 2 cents


maybe, but Arenas's comments on people being delusional and calling their posts "garbage" are equally uncalled for.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd like those guys out on the floor too. And don't drink the anti-freeze - I hear it's not good for you.
> ...


JC's defense has improved a lot this year, EC, well he's not the best defender or rebounder, but the point I'm trying to make is no matter how you want to twist it, they're still 2 of the best players on this team, and we don't have guys off the bench that we could replace them with and still be competetive.


----------



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> 
> 
> maybe, but Arenas's comments on people being delusional and calling their posts "garbage" are equally uncalled for.



amen. :yes:


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

a couple of weeks ago, there was a thread titled winning or tanking. 

Me personally picked tanking. So I agree with Skiles in that. Even though Skiles and Pax said the exact opposite of what in fact they are doing

But interesting, it was like 90% for winning and using this time to try and build a base to establish a winning atmosphere. 

Now that Skiles is doing what most people didnt want done in the first place, I cant believe he has garnered so much support. I mean Arenas is the only consistent one here. Just thought I would point it out. He wanted to win and now he is on Skiles back. Thats consistency.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> 
> 
> maybe, but Arenas's comments on people being delusional and calling their posts "garbage" are equally uncalled for.


actually i was the one who used the term delusional


----------



## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you serious?
> ...


Yes, right now we're trying to set an example for a better team, a team that works harder. 

Part of the reason this season has sucked so much is that Curry and Chandler came in vastly unprepared. They had no conditioning or working out, and they sucked. Their work ethic is questionable and it's not like Paxson can MAKE them work hard. Sure, he can make workouts mandatory, but if they don't work on their own, it won't matter. Surround them with a team of hardworking players and maybe they realize that not working is not cool, not the norm, immature, and irresponsible. 

Fizer was injured a year ago. Chandler this year.

As for Erob, like you said, we dont know. Maybe Skiles didnt realize he shouldnt play someone who doesnt work hard until then, boo for him. Maybe he realized this season was over playoffs-wise. We dont know.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> a couple of weeks ago, there was a thread titled winning or tanking.
> 
> Me personally picked tanking. So I agree with Skiles in that. Even though Skiles and Pax said the exact opposite of what in fact they are doing
> ...


point taken, but maybe he thinks the hard work and professionalism of the NBDL crew on our team is more likely to be conducive to establishing a winning atmosphere than the wardrobe malfunctions and cell phone pranks of the "more talented" crew. I mean, it's not like the talented players were winning any games anyway.

I feel no envy towards Skiles. He's screwed either way. Play the gym rats and lose, or play the talented apathetic players and lose. Either way someone's getting upset and either way a bad message is being sent.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> 
> 
> point taken, but maybe he thinks the hard work and professionalism of the NBDL crew on our team is more likely to be conducive to establishing a winning atmosphere than the wardrobe malfunctions and cell phone pranks of the "more talented" crew. I mean, it's not like the talented players were winning any games anyway.
> ...


at the end of the day, alot of the blame lands squarely at Paxs doorsteps for not bringing Skiles type players in.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> actually i was the one who used the term delusional


he used it too. in another thread he accused GB of being "high". He also called another poster's thoughts "garbage" in this thread. I have no problem with dissenting opinions and arguments, but I can really do without all the little "my opinion is good and yours stinks" jabs. 

Most of the time I like reading Arenas even though I never agree with him. Today I've just noticed a little more condescension.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> 
> 
> he used it too. in another thread he accused GB of being "high". He also called another poster's thoughts "garbage" in this thread. I have no problem with dissenting opinions and arguments, but I can really do without all the little "my opinion is good and yours stinks" jabs.
> ...


so thats where I got the term!  I normally wouldnt use the term delusional


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> the fans are the boss. Now has erob done something wrong? I mean, he gets to practice on time and leaves when its over. So he isnt hardworking. but is he a drug addict or someone who misses games or a threat to society. Sure, his comments are stupid, but has he really done something wrong?
> 
> ...


First off, we know the fans AREN'T the boss. Money talks. How the fans "feel" or what "value" they got for attending a game is only relevant as it relates to potential earnings.

I was as curious as to ERobs disappearance as anyone. I thought we should be driving up his trade value if at all possible. However, that drive cannot be going against the core requirements that each player must meet. If thats the case, we'll have to live with his sorry contract for now. 

On the one hand you surmise there is no reason for ERob not to play. On the other hand you complain the Bulls are airing their dirty laundry. Would you rather the fans do or don't know everything? I speculated that perhaps ERob met his requirements to initially get back onto the floor and into the rotation. Skiles then told him what he needed to do --- an act of Skiles building on ERobs improvement and trying to push him to the next level. ERob satisfied with getting onto the floor didn't move to the next level. So, he found his sorry butt back on the pines. Its not just about a journey from point A to point B. Its about getting these guys to point Z. Perhaps ERob is just a little too lazy to make the long haul. I've seen plenty of this carrot approach in coaching. When the guy gives up on the carrot and in this case is giving less than 100% - whats the point? All just theory and speculation -- because thats all any of us have. See how great it is that ALL the dirty laundry isn't out there? Because nobody can answer why ERob wouldn't be playing on talent alone or playing to be showcased for Charlotte. And btw, did you miss Skiles compliment and "backing" of Erobs wuss statement that he wouldn't drive the lane because he didn't want to get hurt? Skiles said if he could rise up on that jumpshot like ERob he wouldn't either. I'd much rather my coach stood behind me and accentuate the positives when I was acting like a wuss than stand behind me because I was too stupid to tape my ankles for practice or I parked in the handicap spot.

Skiles IS giving it his best shot and unlike the players, Skiles CAN BE FIRED. 

What you are missing is a key point that came from Paxson.

They are trying to address the culture of losing. It starts with acting like a professional. Be an adult, be a pro, be dedicated. Its sort of like "If you build it they will come". If you teach them how to be winners, they will win. If you're more intent on a few wins now and pampering their sorry ***** then I'd say I'd have to agree with you.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> B.S.
> ...


Let me beat RLucas to the punch if he hasn't already...

and if Skiles was that good of a coach, the Bulls wouldn't be the only team in the league interested in him

and if jamal crawford, eddy curry, tyson chandler were that good of players somebody would have offered something of value for them in a trade too

wasn't it just in an article today that Hinrich was the only player "untouchable" at the trade deadline?


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> at the end of the day, alot of the blame lands squarely at Paxs doorsteps for not bringing Skiles type players in.


or anybodies type players for that matter!


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>No Excuses; No Vision</b>!
> 
> 
> or anybodies type players for that matter!


NV/NE

quality debate

This was a good one. 

You didnt change my mind one lick but hey, no big deal. 

Let me be the first to give you a rating on this board. here is a 5 from me. I appreciate people who can articulate their opinion as well as you have and carry themselves in a class way. So here is a 5


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> NV/NE
> ...


I gave him a 5, too.

Shoulda been a 4 because his screen handle should be Excuses; No Vision

heh


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> the use of Son here is a little bit over the top. just my 2 cents


The "son" was intentional. I like getting a rise out of the guy and I knew that would. I agree it was uncalled for. I'm the poster child for passive-aggressive behaviour (at least according to my wife!).  

I do agree with arenas that Curry and Crawford should be out there and that they are our best players. I also think that if these two are our best players, we're in a world of hurt because they simply can't defend.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I do agree with arenas that Curry and Crawford should be out there and that they are our best players. I also think that if these two are our best players, we're in a world of hurt because they simply can't defend.


Works for the Grizzlies if you accept that Ka Pau and Spanky are their two best 

Mind you they have some quality defenders around them


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