# Heat vs. Lakers



## Marcus13

While the NBA Season is crazy and anything can happen, it seems that the NBA is finally destined to get the LeBron/Kobe Finals that they've been fiending for for years. So how do you guys feel we matchup against the new-look Lakers?


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## Dre

We :stephena:


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## Dee-Zy

Barring another blockbuster trade and injuries, I expect to see another KD vs LeBron finals.


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## Adam

Dee-Zy said:


> Barring another blockbuster trade and injuries, I expect to see another KD vs LeBron finals.


Agreed. If we're assuming the best teams win out then I expect Miami in the East and OKC in the West. I have the Lakers #2 behind OKC.


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## Dee-Zy

I'm not even sure if Lakers are better than Spurs or maybe even Dallas right now.


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## Dee-Zy

In a 2k overall point system, maybe they are, but translated into as a team... not sure they are even #2.


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## Adam

Dee-Zy said:


> I'm not even sure if Lakers are better than Spurs or maybe even Dallas right now.


I think Denver is in the top 3 in the West. People are sleeping on them, but I think they have a real chance to win the West next year.


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## doctordrizzay

Lakers are meh to me. I have Clippers Spurs and OKC 100% better than them. Nuggets got faster, Dallas might be able to beat them as well.

This is so overly hyped, I Have Lakers gone second round again.


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## Jace

Thank you Adam. I love what Denver did, and somehow they saved money by doing it. They have nice wings, but not a leader/ace role player like AI. He and Lawson will lead that team perfectly from the perimeter. With McGee and Mozgov, they have a chance to survive up front against LA.

I also agree SA still looks pretty good against them if TD is healthy. Parker will eat Nash up, baiting Howard into rotations for open shots for teammates. That team is run incredibly smoothly offensively. Now, on defense...SA was already shaky. However I'd think they were hurt more by OKC's athleticism than they would be by what LA brings.

No sensible person would put LA ahead of OKC right now, that's simply overstating the upgrade. We'll have to see a fair amount of basketball before we can make any sort of semi-respectable assessment.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

I don't have a problem with people putting OKC above us but Dallas? Come on now. I think drizzay is scared Kobe is going to get too many rings for LeBron to catch up.


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## Jace

Shame Ray isn't in it, but Joel adds that extra...:joel:


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## Dee-Zy

Dallas made some really good moves under the radar this off season.

Collison/Beaubois
Mayo/Dahntay Jones
Marion/Carter
Dirk/Brand
Kaman/Brandon Wright

A lot of flexibility too, they can run a big frontcourt of Dirk/Brand/Kaman or go small with Marion/Brand/Dirk.

A lot of players that can play multiple positions. Carter can play SG/SF, Marion can play SF/PF, Brand can play PF/C and Dirk is an SF in a PF/C body.

Lakers are not better than Mavs. Mavs also have much more depth.


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## Marcus13

Dre said:


> We :stephena:


You aint heard we signed?











Oh, and I can't wait to bump this thread. Nash-Kobe-Gasol-Howard is going to be lethal. OKC is the only team out West with a fighting chance. Wayy to much size and basketball IQ on that roster.


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## Jace

Dallas is always an intriguing, mystery bunch. There moves were indeed sneaky. I have trouble seeing LA having much trouble with them, though.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

Dee-Zy said:


> Dallas made some really good moves under the radar this off season.
> 
> Collison/Beaubois
> Mayo/Dahntay Jones
> Marion/Carter
> Dirk/Brand
> Kaman/Brandon Wright
> 
> A lot of flexibility too, they can run a big frontcourt of Dirk/Brand/Kaman or go small with Marion/Brand/Dirk.
> 
> A lot of players that can play multiple positions. Carter can play SG/SF, Marion can play SF/PF, Brand can play PF/C and Dirk is an SF in a PF/C body.
> 
> Lakers are not better than Mavs. Mavs also have much more depth.


This is getting bumped.


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## Dre

Dee-Zy said:


> Dallas made some really good moves under the radar this off season.
> 
> Collison/Beaubois
> Mayo/Dahntay Jones
> Marion/Carter
> Dirk/Brand
> Kaman/Brandon Wright
> 
> A lot of flexibility too, they can run a big frontcourt of Dirk/Brand/Kaman or go small with Marion/Brand/Dirk.
> 
> A lot of players that can play multiple positions. Carter can play SG/SF, Marion can play SF/PF, Brand can play PF/C and Dirk is an SF in a PF/C body.
> 
> Lakers are not better than Mavs. Mavs also have much more depth.


I'm a Mavericks fan and I'd be surprised if we won two games against that Lakers team in a series.


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## Luke

This is a three team league. L.A. Miami, and OKC. That's it. Anyone who would argue Dallas or the Clippers over any of those three teams is an idiot.

And I love Denver's team but come on now.


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## Jace

I personally am not arguing Denver or SA over LA, just saying they shouldn't be written off. Its obviously those three on paper, right now.


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## Dre

Jace said:


> I personally am not arguing Denver or SA over LA, just saying they shouldn't be written off. Its obviously those three on paper, right now.


Which one is it


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## e-monk

LOL @ the Mavs going big and playing Dirk at SF - and yet not a single NBA coach has thought of doing that ever in the last 12 years?


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## Dre

I didn't even notice that....


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## Jace

Dre said:


> Which one is it


Two strong contenders, one strong contender on paper, a few other teams that can challenge them.


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## Dee-Zy

With kaman and brand, Dallas has the luxury of doing that of spot minutes. 

Dirk was playing sf when he first came in the league. Not for long, but he did.


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## Dre

Jace said:


> Two strong contenders, one strong contender on paper, a few other teams that can challenge them.


None of them will challenge. At all.


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## Dre

Dee-Zy said:


> With kaman and brand, Dallas has the luxury of doing that of spot minutes.
> 
> Dirk was playing sf when he first came in the league. Not for long, but he did.


Dirk is not a small forward and that failed in his athletic prime much less now. Not quick enough laterally. That's called a mismatch.


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## Jace

Dre said:


> None of them will challenge. At all.


I dunno, when Dwight was traded, DeMarcus Cousins tweeted a picture of himself dunking on Dwight. That's a 7 game series.


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## Dre

Wait what


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## Adam

Just like Orlando wouldn't challenge in '09. And the Mavs wouldn't challenge a year ago. And Boston wouldn't challenge this year. I say Denver is a contender and I'm right.


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## Dre

They won't be in the WCFs. Taking the Thunder or Lakers to 7 doesn't count, the Hawks did that to the Celtics in 07, were they contenders? 

And this comes from one of the biggest advocates of these Nuggets


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## Adam

Dre said:


> They won't be in the WCFs. Taking the Thunder or Lakers to 7 doesn't count, the Hawks did that to the Celtics in 07, were they contenders?
> 
> And this comes from one of the biggest advocates of these Nuggets


Okay Miss Cleo.


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## Dre

So am I "miss Cleo" for saying the Wizards won't be in the ECFs? What then makes you more credible for saying what you think

Don't name call, come on now


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## Smithian

Marcus13 said:


> So how do you guys feel we matchup against the new-look Lakers?


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## Adam

Dre said:


> So am I "miss Cleo" for saying the Wizards won't be in the ECFs? What then makes you more credible for saying what you think
> 
> Don't name call, come on now


Name call? You're saying forcefully what is supposed to happen like you know, like you're a psychic. I'm more credible because I know that I don't know what is going to happen. You're stating it "won't" happen like some gypsy palm reader. That makes me more credible than you.


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## Dee-Zy

I don't think that there are only 4 contenders every year (2 east, 2 west).

I don't think that making the conference finals automatically make you a contender and if you don't make it, then you aren't a contender.

Especially in the past few years in the West where there were possibly 3 to 4 teams that could make it to the finals, who were pretty much on the same level.

I'm thinking of the Suns, Spurs, Jazz, Mavs and Lakers in the 2000s, they were contenders IMO and didn't always made the trip to the WCF. Depending of the year, one or two of them didn't make the WCF but that did not make them any less of a contender.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

Dee-Zy said:


> I don't think that there are only 4 contenders every year (2 east, 2 west).
> 
> I don't think that making the conference finals automatically make you a contender and if you don't make it, then you aren't a contender.
> 
> Especially in the past few years in the West where there were possibly 3 to 4 teams that could make it to the finals, *who were pretty much on the same level*.


The Mavs aren't on the same level as the Lakers and OKC.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

Adam said:


> Just like Orlando wouldn't challenge in '09. And the Mavs wouldn't challenge a year ago. And Boston wouldn't challenge this year. * I say Denver is a contender and I'm right*.


How is this any different than what you are accusing Dre of Ms. Cleo?


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## Dee-Zy

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> The Mavs aren't on the same level as the Lakers and OKC.


With their retooling? I think they can be in the same conversation. They are in the same tier.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

Dee-Zy said:


> With their retooling? I think they can be in the same conversation. They are in the same tier.


Collison, Carter, Marion, Brand, Kaman? These aren't names people are scared of. They are decent players but Dirk is their only star.


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## Luke

Dee-Zy said:


> With their retooling? I think they can be in the same conversation. They are in the same tier.


But they're not.


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## Jace

Yeah Dallas isn't in the same tier. Dallas fans will tell you this. My boss is a huge Mavs fan from Dallas and he's still pissed about the offseason, even before the Dwight trade.



Dre said:


> Wait what


green font dude



Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> How is this any different than what you are accusing Dre of Ms. Cleo?


Because he's calling one team a possible challenger, while Dre is saying it can only come down to 3 teams no matter what. One is much broader, the other is more black and white.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

He didn't say possible challenger. He said they are a contender. And that he's right about it. I don't think there is a consensus that Denver is a contender. But he is saying they are. Period. Same thing.


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## Luke

I lived in Dallas for two months over the summer and they're just now getting to the point where they think they could make the playoffs. Optimism is not abundant in that city. Because their team in mediocre.


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## Adam

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> How is this any different than what you are accusing Dre of Ms. Cleo?


Cuz every basketball fan that has been around for the past decade should know that there are a handful of contenders, not just one or two, every year and you can never say who won't contend in August. Denver is definitely a contender in the West. So are LA, OKC, SA, and Memphis. Any one of those five teams can win the West next year.


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## doctordrizzay

Memphis OKC SA and dark horse Denver can win the West next year. It will be OKC or Spurs.


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## Dee-Zy

Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> Collison, Carter, Marion, Brand, Kaman? These aren't names people are scared of. They are decent players but Dirk is their only star.


What other star did Dirk win the championship with?

Tyson Chandler?

Getting 3 HOF on your team is not the only way to win chip or to have a contender team.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt

Right but Chandler is better than Kaman. The championship cast he had is better than his team now.


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## Dee-Zy

Kaman isn't but I think that 

Collison/Mayo/Carter/Marion/Brand/Kaman

is better than

Kidd/Barea/Terry/Stevenson/Marion/Chandler


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## doctordrizzay

Dee-Zy said:


> Kaman isn't but I think that
> 
> Collison/Mayo/Carter/Marion/Brand/Kaman
> 
> is better than
> 
> Kidd/Barea/Terry/Stevenson/Marion/Chandler


Hmm that's a tough one to swollow, Chandler put Dallas over the edge. I don't see any of those current player's doing that. And Marion is two years older. I still think they can beat the Lakers though, because of Dirk.


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## Jace

Kaman will actually be able to score unlike Chandler, he also used to be a great defender, not sure where that's at now. Not going to argue one Dallas over the other at this point, but Chandler to Kaman isn't a huge drop off. Very different games, yes.


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## Damian Necronamous

Here's how I see the league right now...

*Title Contenders:*
Miami Heat
Los Angeles Lakers
Oklahoma City Thunder
Boston Celtics

*Second Tier:*
San Antonio Spurs
Los Angeles Clippers
Indiana Pacers
Chicago Bulls (w/Rose)

*...Everybody Else*

To even put the Mavs in that second tier wouldn't be right. The Grizzlies, Nuggets, Knicks and Nets seem to me to be better teams that Dallas right now.


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## Damian Necronamous

But man, it's fun to compare these rosters right now...

*Miami Heat*
PG: Mario Chalmers...Norris Cole
SG: Dwyane Wade...Ray Allen...Mike Miller
SF: LeBron James...Shane Battier...James Jones
PF: Chris Bosh...Rashard Lewis
C: Joel Anthony...Udonis Haslem...Dexter Pittman

*Los Angeles Lakers*
PG: Steve Nash...Steve Blake...Chris Duhon...Darius Morris
SG: Kobe Bryant...Jodie Meeks...Andrew Goudelock
SF: Metta World Peace...Devin Ebanks
PF: Pau Gasol...Antawn Jamison...Earl Clark
C: Dwight Howard...Jordan Hill

Obviously, the Lakers are going to have problems with LeBron. Who doesn't? However, Meeks and Ebanks at least give the Lakers a couple guys off the bench who can keep up with Miami's speed. LA's second unit won't get trounced this year, like they did last. In fact, they're probably one of the better benches in the league. This Lakers team is also a MUCH better shooting team than they've been the past two years, after picking up Nash, Meeks and Jamison. Obviously, the defense will be improved with Dwight. The question is, what will win - Miami's shooting or LA's inside attack?

I don't think there's any way Miami can match up with the Lakers in the paint. They need another big guy - Kenyon Martin would be a huge addition if they could get him. Of course, can ANYONE match up with a team that has shooters like Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, Shane Battier, Mike Miller and James Jones coming off the bench? Miami's bench now perfectly complements their Big Three, I'll give them that.


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## R-Star

Adam said:


> Okay Miss Cleo.


But your crystal ball prediction is better? 

Classic Adam.


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## R-Star

Also, I'd like to point out that it comes off pretty pathetic how hard some Heat fans are trying to discount the Lakers. 

It wreaks of being scared.


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## R-Star

Has Artest even been able to adequately guard Lebron recently? I don't recall. 

I think with the way those teams match up, LA just has to come to terms that Lebron is going to do what Lebron is going to do, and focus on the rest of the team on defense. Then feed it down low to Howard and Gasol with the rest of the team ready for a kick out.

Christmas day matchup this year? I hope so.


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## Dee-Zy

Damian Necronamous said:


> But man, it's fun to compare these rosters right now...
> 
> *Miami Heat*
> PG: Mario Chalmers...Norris Cole
> SG: Dwyane Wade...Ray Allen...Mike Miller
> SF: LeBron James...Shane Battier...James Jones
> PF: Chris Bosh...Rashard Lewis
> C: Joel Anthony...Udonis Haslem...Dexter Pittman
> 
> *Los Angeles Lakers*
> PG: Steve Nash...Steve Blake...Chris Duhon...Darius Morris
> SG: Kobe Bryant...Jodie Meeks...Andrew Goudelock
> SF: Metta World Peace...Devin Ebanks
> PF: Pau Gasol...Antawn Jamison...Earl Clark
> C: Dwight Howard...Jordan Hill
> 
> Obviously, the Lakers are going to have problems with LeBron. Who doesn't? However, Meeks and Ebanks at least give the Lakers a couple guys off the bench who can keep up with Miami's speed. LA's second unit won't get trounced this year, like they did last. *In fact, they're probably one of the better benches in the league.* This Lakers team is also a MUCH better shooting team than they've been the past two years, after picking up Nash, Meeks and Jamison. Obviously, the defense will be improved with Dwight. The question is, what will win - Miami's shooting or LA's inside attack?
> 
> I don't think there's any way Miami can match up with the Lakers in the paint. They need another big guy - Kenyon Martin would be a huge addition if they could get him. Of course, can ANYONE match up with a team that has shooters like Ray Allen, Rashard Lewis, Shane Battier, Mike Miller and James Jones coming off the bench? Miami's bench now perfectly complements their Big Three, I'll give them that.


What?! And people call me delusional when I say that Mavs are still better?


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## doctordrizzay

R-Star said:


> Also, I'd like to point out that it comes off pretty pathetic how hard some Heat fans are trying to discount the Lakers.
> 
> It wreaks of being scared.


When you have 0 games played with them all together, it's pretty pathetic to hype them up as this all mighty god. See it to believe it, because right everyone here is a Miss Cleo wait until they play a damn game.

How can you be scared of a team that has won 0 games. Smh, same thing happened with the Knicks. And we all know what happened to that.


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## Jace

San Antonio can't be in LAC and Indiana's tier. That's closer to the Grizz territory. They have to be in Boston's tier.



Damian Necronamous said:


> Obviously, the Lakers are going to have problems with LeBron. Who doesn't? However, Meeks and Ebanks at least give the Lakers a couple guys off the bench who can keep up with Miami's speed. LA's second unit won't get trounced this year, like they did last. In fact, they're probably one of the better benches in the league. This Lakers team is also a MUCH better shooting team than they've been the past two years, after picking up Nash, Meeks and Jamison. Obviously, the defense will be improved with Dwight. The question is, what will win - Miami's shooting or LA's inside attack?


I don't know about Meeks or even Ebanks doing much against THE FLYING DEATH MACHINE, however by the time those guys start coming off the bench, Wade will likely be on his way there, grounding any flights until LeWade is reunited on the court.

I'd hold off on calling LA's bench one of the best in the league quite yet. A lot of teams keep legit scorers on the bench that go a long way toward increasing its production. Unless Jamison rolls the years back, I don't see him being the near 6th-man candidate he'd have to be to carry that bench toward the top of the league.

I also take slight umbrage with the "shooting vs. inside attack" view. The Heat aren't a team like 2011 Dallas, relying on outside shooting for their offense. The Heat's offense will be based on inside-out attacks. Some of the inside will be drives (and kicks) to the basket from our big 3 and Chalmers, some of it will be post ups from our big 3 (has LeBron already become the best passer out of the post?). Outside shooting is our release valve and helps open up our stars' games, not the main component of our attack. Both teams will need to keep the defense true by hitting outside shots. LA clearly has an advantage up front, but our stars are great at making things happen, even when role players shots aren't falling and teams are packing the paint and daring them to hit one. All season long our shooters couldn't shoot until the playoffs.



doctordrizzay said:


> When you have 0 games played with them all together, it's pretty pathetic to hype them up as this all mighty god. See it to believe it, because right everyone here is a Miss Cleo wait until they play a damn game.
> 
> How can you be scared of a team that has won 0 games. Smh, same thing happened with the Knicks. And we all know what happened to that.












Hold up, doc...you're saying you can't make LA a contender because they haven't all played together, yet you're hyping the new-look Mavs?


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## Dee-Zy

No, I think I'm the one hyping the new look Mavs. Looks like I am the only one too.


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## Jace

Oh, it was Denver. Still, they made some changes too.


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## doctordrizzay

Jace said:


> Oh, it was Denver. Still, they made some changes too.


:cosby::jr:


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## Wade County

Bottom line is, the Heat vs Lakers matchups are going to be very, very interesting.

Honestly, we've played the Lakers pretty well over the past few years, and Bynum is a more dangerous offensive threat than Howard IMO. Defensively the Lakers are much improved though - as Dwight is best paint protector in the game.

The one that concerns me is Nash. We really don't have an answer for him - and with these kind of weapons at his disposal, and the expected floor spacing he'll get....he's gonna be deadly.

Will be interesting to see how this Lakers team meshes their talents. It did take us a while to get to the point where everyone knew their role.


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## Jace

They have the benefit of already having their roles more clearly laid out.

I'm not going to pull an ESPN and compare Lin to Nash, but our PGs can play great D when motivated. Cole always does, Chalmers has to be locked in and not gambling. Nash has the know-how to squirm throw different defensive looks, so it'll be tricky. One thing that comforts me is what seems like a movement in the league toward advantages for perimeter-based attacks. Obviously having two all-world bigs can make that moot.

Surely there are thousands of people all over the internet making all sorts of definitive statements, but the truth is we really can't know until we see them healthily match up over a 7 game series. That's far from a guarantee, so we may never know.


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## Jace

Just occurred to me, the Lakers may have a hidden advantage in lieu of Dwight likely missing the start of the season. Yes, he'll miss training camp, and that won't be good. But they'll get to integrate Nash and run similar offense with Jordan Hill starting while Dwight sits and sees how he can fit in. Starting with all the new stuff right away might be dizzying. Its a tad easier to get everyone on the same page at the same time one at a time, not that either of them are difficult teammates to play off of.


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## Adam

Just curious, but what do you guys expect out of Nash this year? If you recall, I was strongly against Miami getting Nash. I also said back during the All-Star game that he didn't deserve to make it and I think he's overrated at the moment. Of course now that he plays for LA I can't share these opinions anymore, otherwise I will be accused of being afraid, even though I haven't changed my mind. But I really would not be shocked to see him not even a top 10 PG next year.


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## R-Star

Adam said:


> Just curious, but what do you guys expect out of Nash this year? If you recall, I was strongly against Miami getting Nash. I also said back during the All-Star game that he didn't deserve to make it and I think he's overrated at the moment. Of course now that he plays for LA I can't share these opinions anymore, otherwise I will be accused of being afraid, even though I haven't changed my mind. But I really would not be shocked to see him not even a top 10 PG next year.


:sigh:


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## Jace

I feel like he's lost a little bit, of course, but based on his numbers last year its hard for me to not look at him as one of the best in the league still.


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## e-monk

what's funny is that there's not a similar thread in the Lakers forums - wonder why that is...


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## Jace

If you're trying to make an inference on Heat fans based off of a thread started by a guy who just joined the fanbase because Ray Allen signed here this offseason...I don't know what to tell you.

Besides, they have a lot more to talk about. We've been sitting around waiting for something to happen, and lo and behold, we have a new contender.


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## Adam

e-monk said:


> what's funny is that there's not a similar thread in the Lakers forums - wonder why that is...


You also don't have a recent championship thread. Maybe there's some correlation.


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## e-monk

another response I find interesting, this reactionary defensive 'but we're champions' and 'we're not scared' stuff - intriguing behavior from many (and not just one) in the fan base


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## Adam

e-monk said:


> another response I find interesting, this reactionary defensive 'but we're champions' and 'we're not scared' stuff - intriguing behavior from many (and not just one) in the fan base


LOL. If I give my thoughts on Dwight Howard, I'm scared. If I give my thoughts on the Lakers, I'm defensive. First of all, I'm not a player on the team. I don't get scared, so this message board idea that I feel fear over one particular team is hilarious. Is your arrogance that great that you presume you're the first contender in the past two years Miami has had to deal with? All that aside, we're discussing the Lakers because they're a big topic and they are a contender. Read any more into that and it's nothing more than your own vanity and arrogance.


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## e-monk

look it's not like I'm coming right out and calling Heat fans a bunch of band wagon jumping, fan boy, johnny-come-lately's or anything


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## Wade2Bosh

e-monk said:


> what's funny is that there's not a similar thread in the Lakers forums - wonder why that is...


You dont think there were Lebron/Heat Lakers threads in the Lakers forum here, or on bigger Lakers forums, after Lebron's decision, the off season after they won the championship?


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## Jace

Sorry to interrupt this discussion with a mega-post...

But, a volatile mixture of time and curiosity led me to look at and compare the PER's of each team's "Big 4" (I included Ray to match 4 with 4, despite his much lower production than everyone else). Figured I'd post the results if anyone was interested. 

_(Disclaimer: *This means nothing.* At least when it pertains to future matchups between the two teams. PER is a great composite stat and widely respected, but I realize no stat can tell the full story, accurately predict future success, or predict the interplay that will occur when players combine their talents. This is far from an exact science and very superficial analysis. That said, during the doldrums of summer, I was intrigued by seeing how these new units compared to each other and ranked amongst themselves and the league using the only remotely effective stat I know. All for fun.)_

I used the last 4 seasons to 1) have 2 years each of pre-Decision and post-Decision Heat players, 2) use as big a recent sample size as possible to account for unique circumstances within each season & 3) not get too close to the older players' primes (Nash, Allen, Bryant, Pau). Just to make sure everyone knows, league average PER = 15. If you want to learn more about it, read *here*. Full rankings *here*.


*PER Rankings 2011-12 Season*

*1) **LeBron James* 30.8 *(1st in NBA)* *2011:* 27.34 *(1st)* *2010:* 31.19 *(1st)* *2009:* 31.76 *(1st)* *AVG:* 30.27 *(1st of 8)*

*2) **Dwyane Wade* 26.37 *(3rd)* *2011: *25.65 *(3rd)* *2010:* 28.1 *(2nd)* *2009:* 30.46 *(2nd)* *AVG:* 27.65 *(2nd of 8)*

*3)* *Dwight Howard *24.29 (_6th_) *2011:* 26.13 *(2nd)* *2010:* 24.07 (_6th_) *2009:* 25.44 *(4th)* *AVG:* 24.98 *(3rd of 8)*

*4)* *Kobe Bryant* 21.95 (_17th_) *2011:* 23.94 *(5th)* *2010:* 21.95 (_15th_) *2009:* 24.46 (_6th_) *AVG:* 23.08 *(4th of 8)*

*5) Pau Gasol* 20.51 (_32nd_) *2011: *23.33 (_11th_) *2010:* 22.97 (_10th_) *2009:* 22.31 (_14th_) *AVG:* 22.28 *(5th of 8)*

*6) Steve Nash *20.29 (_36th_) *2011: *20.81 (_22nd_) *2010:* 21.67 (_16th_) *2009:* 19.55 (_26th_) *AVG:* 20.58 *(7th of 8)*

*7) Chris Bosh* 18.94 (_48th_) *2011:* 19.44 (_33rd_) *2010:* 25.11 *(4th)* *2009:* 22.19 (_15th_) *AVG:* 21.42 *(6th of 8)*

*8) Ray Allen* *14.83* (_144th_) *2011: *16.42 (_86th_) *2010:* 15.22 (_121st_) *2009:* 17.34 (_64th_) *AVG:* 15.95 *(8th of 8)
*

Look at that list. All 8 of those guys were once franchise cornerstones; the player commentators spent half the broadcast talking about whenever their teams made it on nat'l TV. Five top-10 PERs from 2010, with Kobe (though 5th the next season), Nash, and Allen outside of that bubble. Twelve top-5 PERs between 5 players in the 4 seasons. How many ASGs do you have to go back for that to represent 1/3rd of the available spots? _(Wow, it appears they never did. Somehow, Nash was the only one missing in 2009 *IN PHOENIX*, while Howard was the only one who missed in '06. Also, Ray Allen in '10)_.

Last year's rankings and the average rankings of the 8 players over the 4 seasons stay true to form, except for Nash and Bosh switching. Despite still being in his early prime, Bosh had the biggest drop in PER over the 4 seasons, as expected considering the circumstances. His last two seasons in Toronto, including 4th in 2010, gave him the lead over Nash overall. This might give us an idea of where Pau's will go next year. 

_Worth mentioning: In 2008 Bosh had a 24.23 PER, *6th* in the league and one spot ahead of Kobe, who had a 24.09. Pau split that season between MEM and LAL and was 18th at 21.42. Pau's last full season with Memphis: 7th with 24.22. Almost identical to Bosh's '08, likely with a somewhat similar team, though *Bosh was 3 years younger.* I bring these up because Bosh is still in his early prime at 28, so any past performance can still be deemed relevant, as well as to include Pau's final season as the main man in the conversation for perspective. Since I mentioned '07 I'll throw in D-Wade's league-leading 29.04 as a bonus. He played 51 games before he injured his shoulder via Shane Battier just as he was really percolating that season.
_
I wasn't sure how Pau and Nash would wind up relative to each other. I was a little surprised to see Pau ahead, especially considering most expect Nash to play a bigger role than Gasol for LA. That adds an interesting dynamic to the equation. Their likely fourth option might be better than their...OK I don't even know where to put Nash as an "option."

Beyond that, a pretty clear order is established among the 3 powerhouses up top. LeBron and Wade appeared to be the perennial 1/2 until joining up pushed Wade down one spot (Paul nudged him out in '12, with Durant/Love filling out the rest of the top 6). Seeing LeBron play what many consider his best season, yet still not topping his highest PER indicates to me that even if Dwight's new teammates make his life easier, his won't go up significantly, if at all, next season.

Next I wanted to see their production vs. each other as units over the 4 years, even though they obviously weren't playing in these new units.


*'09 - '12 "Big 4" Composite PER Averages*

*Miami HEAT* 23.82 

*Los Angeles Lakers* 22.73 
*
=HEAT +1.09*

Not far apart. As is obvious, this is with the Heat's Big 3 all having their numbers roll back after joining up after 2010, as well as Ray's being the most diminished by compacted role (as well as age), due in part to an emerging Rondo and more of a reliance on his threat over his production as his Boston tenure progressed. Ray's numbers particularly pull down the Heat's total average. Add to that LeBron still being on the uptick (27), Bosh at worst leveling off (28), and Dwyane (30) not declining the way some may think; relative to the Lakers two youngest core players being Dwight (26) and Pau (32), it further frames the numbers in the Heat's favor. Dwight is still getting better, his numbers may not reflect that until the team is fully his though. Hard to tell what to expect from the other three, but logic/history suggests they won't trend upward; especially further sharing a load, as indicated by the shift in the Heat 3's numbers after joining up.

I must say, this result surprised me. When I decided to look at this, I expected LA to come out on top, especially with Ray in the mix. I figured Dwight and Nash playing "alone," and Pau as a 2nd option over 4 years would put LA over Miami fairly easily.

All things considered, there's a possibility all 4 Heat players could trend upwards, or at the least as a unit. No idea how large of a role he'll have, but Ray could get back over 15. Bosh seems to have turned a page comfort-wise, he may get back to 20 for the first time here. Dwyane's PER last year would seem hard to top with the way we saw him play at the end of last season, but when you consider his accumulating that number with a bad knee during a relatively poor (for him) season, coupled with his PER-friendly game, it wouldn't be out of the question for him to go higher.

All this really tells us, for whatever its worth, is the 4 seasons leading up to next season (though in most cases on different teams on both sides) our core of stars still performs the best based on PER in the league. And, again in spite of Ray's heavy-swaying number (37), the Heat's core four is still two years younger than LA's on average. Take out Nash/Allen: Heat -2.3 (this is by current age, not exact days.) (_Kobe turns 34 in five days. I made him 34._)


_Just for added perspective, here's OKC's "Big 4" in 2012:_

*Kevin Durant* 26.26 (_6th_)

*Russell Westbrook* 23 (_10th_)

*James Harden* 21.13 (_30th_)

*Serge Ibaka* 18.98 (_46th_)
*
Average:* 22.34

*vs. 2012 MIA* 

*=HEAT +.4*

*vs. 2012 LA *

*=Thunder +.58*
_
OKC's still looking pretty scary numbers-wise. Even as a true unit their Big 4 beat out LA's with Nash and Howard racking up stats on their own. Heat still got the edge, however. OKC's number is aided by their experience together, but they also have more room to grow when considering their youth. They signed Ibaka to an extension today (overpaid), if they can lock Harden down for the long haul, too, this could be a major force for awhile._


Here's a look at all 4 isolated seasons as units to get a better idea how they've related over the years, knowing the situations behind the numbers.


*2012:*

*Miami HEAT* 22.74

*Los Angeles Lakers* 21.76

*=HEAT +.98*

*2011:*

*Los Angeles Lakers* 23.55 
*
Miami HEAT* 22.21 

*=Lakers +1.34*

*2010:*

*Miami HEAT* 24.9
*
Los Angeles Lakers* 22.67
*
=HEAT +2.23*

*2009:*
*
Miami HEAT* 25.44

*Los Angeles Lakers* 22.94

*=HEAT +2.50*

With Kobe and Pau sharing touches during the final 2 seasons the Heat's Big 3 all lead their own teams, combined with Ray having a fairly productive 2nd season with Boston, the Heat's 4 outperformed LA's pretty significantly. However the Lakers 4, with Howard and Nash somewhere around the peak of their powers and hauling a heavy load in ORL and PHX, surpassed the Heat's in the 1st year of the Big 3. LeBron shot around 40% the first month of the season as he adjusted to new everything. Bosh struggled. Wade had to pull back his passing game. The next year the Heat take it back, even with Ray's ankle injury and limited responsibilities pulling him below the league average PER of 15, Dwyane in many ways having the worst season of his career since he was a rookie, and Bosh still struggling to settle into the 3rd option consistently.

I'm interested in seeing where the numbers wind up in 2013, great teammates can help each other out in production, while also diminishing the opportunity for it. Howard will have less post opportunities, and Nash won't have the ball quite as much as he's used to, but Howard is the best pick-and-roll big in the league and Nash is obviously one of the best at running it. We saw what he did with Stoudemire. Howard is better at finishing it. It's also hard to not see Kobe getting more efficient and possibly seeing an increase in assists, which will offset the impact of reduced PPG on his PER. Pau being a better rebounder/shotblocker than Bosh will make up for his reduced offensive production. Playing less out of the low-post may reduce his FG%, though.

Also remains to be seen in what way the mutually-beneficial threats of Ray and the Big 3 will manifest themselves schematically/statistically. Beefing up the shooters on the roster increases the chances the Heat can (for once in the Big 3 era) have shooters who hit shots during the season. That would finally allow Dwyane and LeBron to really play the game they want to play.

Lastly, I thought it might be helpful to combine the last 2 seasons, as its a greater sample size of most recent play.


*2012 + 2011:*

*Los Angeles Lakers* 22.66

*Miami HEAT* 22.47

_*=Lakers +.19*_

*HEAT Without Ray Allen* 24.76

_*=HEAT +2.10*_

*+ Lakers Without Steve Nash* 23.36

_*=HEAT +1.40*_

LA eeks out MIA by a narrow .2, though the advantages I brought up earlier should be considered. Not entirely fair since we're mainly trying to go 4 x 4 here, but I wanted to also look at the numbers without Ray's stat anvil bogging them down. In the two years the Heat 3 played as a unit, they still out-PER'd the Lakers 4 with Howard and Nash carrying middling franchises. The ladder pair's opportunity to increase efficiency can keep their PER at its current level amid reduced production, or perhaps even increase it. But once all 8 players are playing with their current teams, I'd expect that -.2 to be overcome by Miami anyway. Just for fun I also tried LA's top 3 performers against the Heat's. Since Nash's numbers aren't far behind Pau's, this was kind of pointless. The fact that they'll potentially be spreading that high an average among 4 players is where the advantage lies, however once you get to the 3rd/4th player, star status matters less than efficiency/skill. Despite his lower PERs, I still think Ray can contribute evenly with the fourth contributor for LA.

To me, this further suggests that the talent gap may not be as great as some think in LA's favor, even before bringing age into the discussion. This is all putting any potential schematic advantages aside.

--

I know this might look like I'm saying "Don't draw conclusions from this" while suggesting you draw conclusions from it, but I'm really not...at least not any sort of definitive conclusion. I honestly started this out expecting LA to look pretty clearly better than Miami. I just figure that the same way, for instance, John Hollinger used PER as part of his argument for placement of the best performances in Finals history (*Wade was #1*), this can be brought into the discussion for how these teams might face off. Of course, Hollinger's list is an analysis of past performances for the purpose of ranking, while this is doing so to picture the success of future units that haven't entirely played together. I did read a RealGM blog post about where the Heat's Big 3 would rank amongst the NBA's best of all time during the 2010 offseason, which is probably where I got the idea for this.

One thing that may be able to be surmised is that the Heat's stars have the potential for greatest overall impact, ignoring style of play or team concept, while also being younger. Though we've seen them fail, its difficult to confidently count out LeBron and Dwyane in a series, no matter who they're playing. Again, nothing conclusive can be drawn from this at all in terms of who'd win a series if all healthy, but its an excuse to have a little more confidence in your team, Heat fans. We're still really good. Probably the most Pollyanna way to look at this as a Heat fan would be to deduce that we have the 2 best players in the series, while LA has the next best 2 (Howard, Bryant), Bosh coming in next, followed by Pau, Nash, and Allen. Obviously that's a futile ranking, as it won't mean all that much in the end, if its even truly accurate.

To expand the discussion to the team, I think the Heat have a little more in support of the 4's. I know Jamison has had some strong play since then, but he looked shot 2 years ago when the Cavs acquired him. And is Jodie Meeks significantly better than...shit, what we know of Terrel Harris? Meeks hasn't impressed me much in the league, and 41% shooting (not from 3, overall) isn't cutting the mustard. On the Heat's side, Chalmers seems to be having some sort of 2 steps forward, 1 step back progression throughout his career. He's yet to hit his prime and you can see him still growing, so if what we saw in this last year's playoffs is a sign of where he may plateau, he can become a huge advantage for us. Rashard is another X-factor, and beyond that all we need are periodic, solid contributions from the Battier/UD/Miller/Cole/Joel bunch. I don't know too much about Goudelock and Morris, or what Hill or Ebanks will ultimately provide, but I see more potential from our supporting cast. Yes, _just maybe_ even enough to overcome their Nashty, Twin-tower attack.

Also, should be noted that the biggest hole in PER might be true defense (i.e. not blocks/steals). I would say that's a greater strength of our stars than LA's.

But both teams will be powerhouses. Clear-cut superpowers of the league. They'll have different strengths and weaknesses, and will improve before the 2013 Playoffs by signing discarded free agents who plug up their respective holes. Yes, LA has become another top FA destination in the league, but fortunately we'll be going after different players for the most part. Its going to come down to health, fit, matchups, a little coaching, a little chemistry, a little luck, and ultimately how far the best players will carry their teams.

So, in summation: 

Heat in 5.


----------



## R-Star

Adam said:


> You also don't have a recent championship thread. Maybe there's some correlation.


Uhhh, ya, they actually do. Any sane person would consider a championship in the last 5 years recent.


Good posting as per usual Adam.


----------



## e-monk

r-star sorry to correct you but that's two actually - which if I'm not mistaken is the same as the total of titles won ever by....? nope I lost track of what I was going to say there, nevermind


----------



## R-Star

e-monk said:


> r-star sorry to correct you but that's two actually - which if I'm not mistaken is the same as the total of titles won ever by....? nope I lost track of what I was going to say there, nevermind


You're crazy. Only last season matters. 

The Heat will probably 5 peat this mother ****er before Lebron, Wade and Bosh all decide to retire at the prime of their careers.

They'll probably be averaging 30,20,10 each by that time. 

I fully assume Norris Cole will be the best PG in the league by then as well.


----------



## Adam

e-monk said:


> r-star sorry to correct you but that's two actually - which if I'm not mistaken is the same as the total of titles won ever by....? nope I lost track of what I was going to say there, nevermind


Okay, I'm sorry. Allow me right here to congratulate you once again on your championship three years ago. You guys are obviously the best team in the world. Anybody saying the Lakers are the second best team in the West is defensive, and anybody saying the Lakers might not win the championship next year is a fool, or just a scared, bandwagoning Heat fan (there are no other kind).

You're the prettiest girl in the world. All those other girls that say you're a conceited bitch? They're just ugly and jealous.


----------



## MarioChalmers

R-Star said:


> Uhhh, ya, they actually do. Any sane person would consider a championship in the last 5 years recent.
> 
> 
> Good posting as per usual Adam.


A recent championship is different from a recent championship thread. Good reading as usual, R-Star.


----------



## MarioChalmers

R-Star said:


> You're crazy. Only last season matters.
> 
> The Heat will probably 5 peat this mother ****er before Lebron, Wade and Bosh all decide to retire at the prime of their careers.
> 
> They'll probably be averaging 30,20,10 each by that time.
> 
> I fully assume Norris Cole will be the best PG in the league by then as well.


"If I maliciously misrepresent the arguments of the people I'm talking to, I can continue being condescending!"


----------



## e-monk

Adam said:


> Okay, I'm sorry. Allow me right here to congratulate you once again on your *16 championships*. You guys are obviously the best *franchise* in the world. Anybody saying the Lakers are the second best team in the West is defensive, and anybody saying the Lakers might not win the championship next year is a fool, or just a scared, bandwagoning Heat fan (there are no other kind).
> 
> You're the prettiest girl in the world. All those other girls that say you're a conceited bitch? They're just ugly and jealous.


fixed that for you

I just find this whole thing defensive, anxiety, inferiority complex thing so fascinating...


----------



## Adam

e-monk said:


> fixed that for you
> 
> I just find this whole thing defensive, anxiety, inferiority complex thing so fascinating...


Damn, 16 championships. I'm an inferior person I suppose. The team you root for has more championships than the team I root for. I can only apologize for my behavior. Did the Heat even win anything recently? Who cares when the Lakers have won 16 championships.

Anything critical of the Lakers is obviously said out of jealousy and weakness. It totally makes sense that the team who won a championship should be defensive and scared.

(On a totally serious, non sarcastic note: do you even realize how douchey and arrogant you sound? You're in another team's forum accusing people of being defensive and scared, citing the existence of a thread discussing a current major national headline. Daaaaayum, the Lakers have won 16 championships. What's your dick like homie?)


----------



## e-monk

adorable


----------



## Adam

e-monk said:


> adorable


Well, you lost when you started talking about 16 championships.


----------



## Jace

e-monk said:


> fixed that for you
> 
> I just find this whole thing defensive, anxiety, inferiority complex thing so fascinating...


Holy shit are you trolling or are you really this delusional?


----------



## Adam

Jace said:


> Holy shit are you trolling or are you really this delusional?


Need I also point out the irony that him calling people defensive and scared because they don't favor his team reeks of fear of defensiveness? And him doing it in our team forum while saying, "you wouldn't see this in the Lakers forum"...lol


----------



## MarioChalmers

Jace said:


> Holy shit are you trolling or are you really this delusional?


The guy's on meds. I remember a recent hospital trip.


----------



## Jace

Ira's article bringing up the upcoming 2014 debates, now that the Lakers are lined up for potential space then, is interesting. I can't see LeBron or Wade going, but if Bosh begins to feel like the odd man out over the next two seasons, he'd be the least unlikely to hop to LA (it would be Kobe and Pau expiring).


----------



## Smithian

If the Heat and Lakers play in the Finals, the Heat will pound that butt in 5 games. They'll rack up the regular season victories, but the Lakers will be praying the Bulls or Pacers somehow knock off the Heat.


----------



## doctordrizzay

We are a match up nightmare for the Lakers


----------



## Dee-Zy

Just by curiosity, wouldn't the opposite be true as well? LA is a match up nightmare for us to guard?

As for the Bulls knocking us out.. what? Without DRose?


----------



## Smithian

Dee-Zy said:


> Just by curiosity, wouldn't the opposite be true as well? LA is a match up nightmare for us to guard?
> 
> As for the Bulls knocking us out.. what? Without DRose?


We're much more athletic than the Lakers. Bosh or LeBron can matchup with Pau. The Heat for years have done a good job combating Dwight and other big centers. Denying entry passes, fronting, etc. 

Our swarming athleticism can give Nash trouble.

Kobe will struggle trying to match up with LeBron/Wade an entire series.

Erik Spoelstra > Mike Brown


----------



## R-Star

Smithian said:


> We're much more athletic than the Lakers. Bosh or LeBron can matchup with Pau. The Heat for years have done a good job combating Dwight and other big centers. Denying entry passes, fronting, etc.
> 
> Our swarming athleticism can give Nash trouble.
> 
> Kobe will struggle trying to match up with LeBron/Wade an entire series.
> 
> Erik Spoelstra > Mike Brown


Kobe isn't struggling to do anything against Wade. Lebron, yes. But you just said you have Lebron on Gasol.

And Nash is getting swarmed? By who? You're going to provide single coverage to Howard, Gasol and Bryant and double Nash then?



You're downplaying this way too much.


Bottom line is, the Lakers have more weapons on the floor than Miami at any given time. It all comes down to just how much better Lebron is than the rest of the league at that point.


----------



## Wade County

Battier is a good Kobe defender, so atleast we have that if Bean starts to get too hot.

Howard and Gasol will probably cause us issues on the offensive boards, but likewise when we go the Bosh/Bron frontcourt - they're going to have to come out of the paint to defend that, or pick up a ton of fouls.

Nash is the architect, if we can get a handle on him and stop lob passes and his sneaky little bounce passes through the key we should have a good shot.

We can always go though:

Wade
Ray Ray
Battier
Bron
Bosh

Lineup if Rio is playing like shit and getting torched by Nash.


----------



## Marcus13

Wade County said:


> Battier is a good Kobe defender, so atleast we have that if Bean starts to get too hot.
> 
> Howard and Gasol will probably cause us issues on the offensive boards, but likewise when we go the Bosh/Bron frontcourt - they're going to have to come out of the paint to defend that, or pick up a ton of fouls.
> 
> Nash is the architect, if we can get a handle on him and stop lob passes and his sneaky little bounce passes through the key we should have a good shot.
> 
> We can always go though:
> 
> Wade
> Ray Ray
> Battier
> Bron
> Bosh
> 
> Lineup if Rio is playing like shit and getting torched by Nash.



This was the kind of response I was hoping for at the start of this thread.

Thank you.


----------



## R-Star

Who's Wade defending in that situation? Nash? If so, Nash abuses him. You put Ray on Nash, same situation.


Unless there's some sort of miracle, Wade isn't that good of a defender at this point in time. At least not what I saw in the playoffs. I'll admit I didn't get a good enough look in the regular season.


----------



## Dee-Zy

How the hell would Nash do anything against wade? Wade struggles against athletic and quick small players. DWade will suffocate Nash on D as long as he does bitch and moan at refs for call he didn't get on the other end and if he doesn't sleep on D (which he tends to do but mainly off the ball). I think rio and cole's speed can keep Nash in check.


----------



## Dee-Zy

I'm more concerned about Kobe than Nash. If Nash gets hounded, the ball will go into Kobe's hands and he will have good shooters to spread the floor so that we can't double him.


----------



## Jace

Where do you get the idea Nash would abuse Wade? For stretches, Wade has effectively guarded some of the best PGs in the league as recently as this past season. Is it an ideal look for us? No. Dwyane tends to fall asleep on D when not full engaged on that end. When he's intent on shutting his man down, he's great at covering PGs. The idea that Nash would _abuse _him is beyond hilarious. We don't want him covering PGs for a full game, especially not Nash, but he can do it while we run our Ray and the Big 3 lineups without a PG.

Even needing knee surgery he gave us good minutes on Rondo and, if I remember correctly, even Westbrook.

The whole "LA has more weapons on the floor" idea is pretty flawed, too. If we argue it its just going to come down to semantics, though. Allen running off screens or even just spotting up is just as much of a threat as LA's fourth option would be in any given set. The Heat's superior versatility is also getting overlooked.


----------



## R-Star

Jace said:


> Where do you get the idea Nash would abuse Wade? For stretches, Wade has effectively guarded some of the best PGs in the league as recently as this past season. Is it an ideal look for us? No. Dwyane tends to fall asleep on D when not full engaged on that end. When he's intent on shutting his man down, he's great at covering PGs. The idea that Nash would _abuse _him is beyond hilarious. We don't want him covering PGs for a full game, especially not Nash, but he can do it while we run our Ray and the Big 3 lineups without a PG.
> 
> Even needing knee surgery he gave us good minutes on Rondo and, if I remember correctly, even Westbrook.
> 
> The whole "LA has more weapons on the floor" idea is pretty flawed, too. If we argue it its just going to come down to semantics, though. Allen running off screens or even just spotting up is just as much of a threat as LA's fourth option would be in any given set. The Heat's superior versatility is also getting overlooked.



Now Ray Allen is as good an offensive option as Gasol or Howard, either of whom will be LA's 4th option?

Look man, if you don't want to deal in reality, that's your call, not mine.


----------



## Wade County

I don't think Wade defending Nash is laughable at all really. Wade was playing with a bum knee that required surgery the entire postseason. We may never know how bad that really was. I think that is shading your opinion on Wade's ability R-Star, well, that and the fact you hate the guy :laugh:.

Assuming he's healthy, I don't see how Nash would be able to guard Wade on the other end. Post ups a plenty.

Look, it's all fun and games at this time of the year. Nobody knows how the new look Lakers will mesh, and while on paper it looks good, chemistry doesnt happen overnight.


----------



## Jace

R-Star said:


> Now Ray Allen is as good an offensive option as Gasol or Howard, either of whom will be LA's 4th option?
> 
> Look man, if you don't want to deal in reality, that's your call, not mine.


No. Just saying on any given possession Allen's impact can be equal. Having 4 great players on the floor is nice, but there are limits to how much impact each can have at once. Basically what I'm saying is by playing two or three All Stars next to him, finding Allen in a given offensive set can result in just a high percentage chance to score as finding Gasol or Nash. Once you get to that many options, players' games become more compact and efficiency is the key. 

Ultimately, even if LA does have "more weapons," Miami's weapons are more potent and multi-functional. A typical Laker line-up would likely have Nash as the lone facilitator (Kobe has the ability to do this to an extent, but just doesn't for the most part). The Heat's starting line up would feature two guys who've averaged 8 assists for a season on several occasions before you even get to the PG. To me, that kind of passing ability to go along with their scoring threat makes Allen that much more dangerous, obviously if subbed in for Rio. Is he the type of "weapon" you're going to throw it to and expect to play pick-and-roll or iso? No. But why would want to give less of those opportunities to our 3 all-stars if they're on the floor?

All of this talk makes me think of the '05 Heat vs. '06 Heat. Most of us agree the former team was better, despite the latter having more "weapons." Even with a PG who couldn't bring the ball up the court without karate kicks and a third option who almost entirely relegated himself to being a spot-up shooter, as well as a PF who did nothing but shoot spot-up, mid-range Js on O, that team was still more dominant than the other. The three supporting players had compact roles that they could perform extremely efficiently while the superstars had all the room they could ask for to do their superstar thing. Not at all saying LA will run into any of the Antoine Walker/JWill issues we had that year (even though it ended well), just saying you can't just tally up what you consider to be "weapons" and call it an automatic advantage.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

If the Heat ran that lineup and the Lakers want to go small as well we could insert Meeks at the 2, slide Kobe to the 3 with Metta at the 4 and Dwight at the 5. 

Or they could keep Gasol at the 4 and let him defend Battier. Obviously it takes him away from the basket but with Dwight there I would be ok with that. On offense we would have a huge size advantage to pound it inside and pound the offensive glass.

A lot of possibilities both ways. Should be interesting.


----------



## Dee-Zy

agreed

I think coaching will play a big part should they meet in the finals (regular season match up between the two teams since they are East-West is almost moot IMO).


----------



## Jace

Yup. And again, we beat a team with a major size advantage on us before Bosh even went down, followed by a team who's center was playing as well as anyone. Were the defensive schemes perfect? No. We were all frustrated by the unceasing devotion to front the post, even when Boston figured out a way around it. That won't work consistently against LA, particularly when Nash is on the floor.


----------



## doctordrizzay

Our style of Defense is what the Lakers kryptonite is, our swarm turnover habby defense is will be way to much for a bunch of thirty year olds, then we got nash and kobe trying to chase down lebron and wade on the fast break. Not going to happen.


----------



## Dee-Zy

Jace said:


> Yup. And again, we beat a team with a major size advantage on us before Bosh even went down, followed by a team who's center was playing as well as anyone. Were the defensive schemes perfect? No. We were all frustrated by the unceasing devotion to front the post, even when Boston figured out a way around it. That won't work consistently against LA, particularly when Nash is on the floor.


Can't compare Hibbert and Dwight though, even on the offensive end.

2 worlds.

Plus Hibbert didn't have a Pau Gasol type of player next to him either. Not sure I agree to 100% here.


----------



## Jace

Dude you don't get what I'm saying. I'm not comparing them. I'm saying *without our only center* we still managed to beat a team with a size advantage. Are Pau/Dwight a lot better? Yes. But if you're going to envision these teams matching up its only fair to assume Bosh will be playing.

Hibbert is closer to Bynum than Howard, offensively, though. Obviously Howard has a crazy physical advantage, but as has been stated, we've mostly been OK against him offensively.


----------



## doctordrizzay

Jace said:


> Dude you don't get what I'm saying. I'm not comparing them. I'm saying *without our only center* we still managed to beat a team with a size advantage. Are Pau/Dwight a lot better? Yes. But if you're going to envision these teams matching up its only fair to assume Bosh will be playing.
> 
> *Hibbert is closer to Bynum than Howard, offensively, though*. Obviously Howard has a crazy physical advantage, but as has been stated, we've mostly been OK against him offensively.


Bynum's offense is alot better than Howards so I don't about Hibbert being closer to bynum.


----------



## Jace

Precisely, I'm saying Hibbert is more of a low-post player like Bynum.


----------



## Dee-Zy

I'm just saying that it is far fetched to say that we fared ok against Hibbert, ergo we should do ok against LA's frontcourt.


----------



## doctordrizzay

Dee-Zy said:


> I'm just saying that it is far fetched to say that we fared ok against Hibbert, ergo we should do ok against LA's frontcourt.


we held him to like 11 points 7 rebounds per game...without bosh


----------



## Jace

Dee-Zy said:


> I'm just saying that it is far fetched to say that we fared ok against Hibbert, ergo we should do ok against LA's frontcourt.


DZ, bro. Why do you keep leaving out the crucial element of my point? We fared OK against Hibbert without the only center we play. I might be crazy, but I feel like we're better at combating size when our only semi-legit C is healthy, no? Not saying it automatically means we'll be "OK" against LA. Just pointing out we're good at making adjustments against size even in the face of adversity (no Bosh.)

You're making me dizzy, Dee-Zy.


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## Dee-Zy

Hahaha, point taken, it's all luv, I'm just afraid of overrating ourselves until we see it. 

I see your point!


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## R-Star

Dee-Zy said:


> Hahaha, point taken, it's all luv, I'm just afraid of overrating ourselves until we see it.
> 
> I see your point!


It's more the rest of these guys underrating the Lakers.


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## Dee-Zy

I always like listening to this guy's breakdown:


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## doctordrizzay

Dee-Zy said:


> I always like listening to this guy's breakdown:


Lol he's say's "it's pretty clear Lakers are favorite to win it all this year"

Smh.


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## Adam

I like how he says, 'So Howard's free throw shooting isn't a problem,' and, 'Much is made about Nash's defense but nobody can guard the best point guards anyway.' LOL. And Kobe is suddenly going to play off the ball like he's Reggie Miller or Ray Allen? Kobe aint running loop de loops waiting for off-the-ball screens and running along the baseline for possible passes. Get that shit outta here right now. He hasn't played that way in 15+ years and suddenly he is going to just become a cog in a system?

I see them being the #2 in the West and flourishing because of their supreme individual ability. I'm not expecting some cohesive offensive unit like that video suggests. They're not gonna be some Hoosiers squad running the picket fence and running motion offense with Gasol flaring to the corner.


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## R-Star

Adam said:


> I like how he says, 'So Howard's free throw shooting isn't a problem,' and, 'Much is made about Nash's defense but nobody can guard the best point guards anyway.' LOL. And Kobe is suddenly going to play off the ball like he's Reggie Miller or Ray Allen? Kobe aint running loop de loops waiting for off-the-ball screens and running along the baseline for possible passes. Get that shit outta here right now. He hasn't played that way in 15+ years and suddenly he is going to just become a cog in a system?
> 
> I see them being the #2 in the West and flourishing because of their supreme individual ability. I'm not expecting some cohesive offensive unit like that video suggests. They're not gonna be some Hoosiers squad running the picket fence and running motion offense with Gasol flaring to the corner.


No. Of course not. Bringing superstars together only works when its Adams player he has a crush on and his favorite team.


You have absolutely no shame.


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## Eternal

doctordrizzay said:


> Our style of Defense is what the Lakers kryptonite is, our swarm turnover habby defense is will be way to much for a bunch of thirty year olds, then we got nash and kobe trying to chase down lebron and wade on the fast break. Not going to happen.


How can you say it's not going to happen? None of us have seen the Lakers play as a unit yet, so we have no idea how they will perform. On paper both teams should present nightmare matchups. Heat will have big issues in the paint guarding the Lakers, just like last year, while Lakers will have issues on the perimeter guarding the Heat. It will just come down to who can take advantage the most of the matchup advantages on the floor.

Howard will also help mask Nash's defensive liabilities with clogging the lanes on the back end of the floor. Lakers needed the one thing the Heat struggle against and that's a big man anchoring the defense who is able to move well and clog the lane stopping the drives from Lebron/Wade. You saw it in the Finals against Dallas, Pacers were doing well, but obviously don't have the talent to stay on the level of the Heat for a long period of time in a series.


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## Jace

Habby.



doctordrizzay said:


> Lol he's say's "it's pretty clear Lakers are favorite to win it all this year"
> 
> Smh.


Come on man. You're misquoting a video you posted. "Look primed to become the favorite" doesn't mean the same thing you wrote. I don't see what's outlandish about what he actually said. He's definitely off on Dwight being the LeBron killer, though. LeBron has destroyed Orlando numerous times with and without the Heat.

Also, the Tyson Chandler shutting down LeBron in the Finals meme is just a fallacy and a product of people buying into a manifested theme. You watch the series and its clear LeBron wasn't being aggressive at all and settling for jumpshots when he was willing to shoot. He was all out of whack that series...failing to post up JJ Barea properly, airballing short turn-arounds, defering to Chalmers without even trying a dribble when the team needed a basket, etc. I doubt this had much to do with the menacing presence of Tyson Chandler. Chicago had a better defensive center in Noah (including shotblocking) and two other high-quality defensive bigs in Gibson and Asik of the like Dallas couldn't claim, yet LeBron was stellar in that series. We all know it wasn't Dallas' superior defensive schemes. 

If you want to give an opposing player credit for LeBron's 2011 Finals performance, I'd rather it be Shawn Marion. You can even go as far as to say Artest can play that kind of D on James in a series. However, 2011 Shawn Marion wasn't going to shut down 2012 LeBron, particularly considering I don't even buy that he deserves credit for shutting down 2011 LeBron, for reasons stated above.

If you'd care to see video of LeBron (or Wade) hitting layups in Dwight's face, search youtube for their 51 (and 50) point games in Orlando (2011 and 2009). (Don't intend to imply they do exactly this to him every game, but SVG has said many times over the years he's given up on defending both of them, even before they teamed up.) Of course he'll make their life more difficult, but great players find a way, particularly over the course of a series. The idea of our stars repeatedly running into Dwight walls and getting shut down causes me to lose no sleep.


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## Eternal

Jace said:


> Habby.
> 
> 
> 
> Come on man. You're misquoting a video you posted. "Look primed to become the favorite" doesn't mean the same thing you wrote. I don't see what's outlandish about what he actually said. He's definitely off on Dwight being the LeBron killer, though. LeBron has destroyed Orlando numerous times with and without the Heat.
> 
> Also, the Tyson Chandler shutting down LeBron in the Finals meme is just a fallacy and a product of people buying into a manifested theme. You watch the series and its clear LeBron wasn't being aggressive at all and settling for jumpshots when he was willing to shoot. He was all out of whack that series...failing to post up JJ Barea properly, airballing short turn-arounds, defering to Chalmers without even trying a dribble when the team needed a basket, etc. I doubt this had much to do with the menacing presence of Tyson Chandler. Chicago had a better defensive center in Noah (including shotblocking) and two other high-quality defensive bigs in Gibson and Asik of the like Dallas couldn't claim, yet LeBron was stellar in that series. We all know it wasn't Dallas' superior defensive schemes.
> 
> If you want to give an opposing player credit for LeBron's 2011 Finals performance, I'd rather it be Shawn Marion. You can even go as far as to say Artest can play that kind of D on James in a series. However, 2011 Shawn Marion wasn't going to shut down 2012 LeBron, particularly considering I don't even buy that he deserves credit for shutting down 2011 LeBron, for reasons stated above.
> 
> If you'd care to see video of LeBron (or Wade) hitting layups in Dwight's face, search youtube for their 51 (and 50) point games in Orlando (2011 and 2009). (Don't intend to imply they do exactly this to him every game, but SVG has said many times over the years he's given up on defending both of them, even before they teamed up.) Of course he'll make their life more difficult, but great players find a way, particularly over the course of a series. The idea of our stars repeatedly running into Dwight walls and getting shut down causes me to lose no sleep.


Sorry, I should've been more clear on that Chandler comment. I was more getting to the fact that Howard (if healthy) will be a huge improvement over Bynum for the Lakers, especially on the defensive end. Some in here, mainly just one person, seems to be making it like Howard will not be an upgrade over Bynum. I understand the Chandler / Dallas defensive schemes is blown out of proportion quite a bit. Having said that, Howard will fill a big void for us IMO on getting the the spots on the defensive end on time, and not always be a step or two behind.

Bynum has the potential to be better then Howard, but will never be better IMO, unless he grows up. He just doesn't bring it every night and takes games off more often then not. Howard for the most part brings great energy which that alone should be a big improvement compared to Bynum last season.


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## Jace

Howard's impact on a game is definitely much more consistently felt. I was watching an NBATV replay of the game LA won against OKC today, and seeing Bynum lumber up and down the floor really sank in how much better Dwight moves. His impact on the boards seems to be just as robust, but Dwight'll definitely get more oops and putbacks and exciting blocks.

Upon glancing at the numbers, Dwight's rebound % perennially sits at 22%, while Bynum's has seemed to plateau at 19% the past couple of seasons...for what that's worth. Perhaps Bynum's numbers were affected by Pau's presence, but that still seems like a significant difference. I guess we'll see.


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## Smithian

Adam said:


> I like how he says, 'So Howard's free throw shooting isn't a problem,' and, 'Much is made about Nash's defense but nobody can guard the best point guards anyway.' LOL. And Kobe is suddenly going to play off the ball like he's Reggie Miller or Ray Allen? Kobe aint running loop de loops waiting for off-the-ball screens and running along the baseline for possible passes. Get that shit outta here right now. He hasn't played that way in 15+ years and suddenly he is going to just become a cog in a system?
> 
> I see them being the #2 in the West and flourishing because of their supreme individual ability. I'm not expecting some cohesive offensive unit like that video suggests. They're not gonna be some Hoosiers squad running the picket fence and running motion offense with Gasol flaring to the corner.


People forget their coach is Mike Brown. He makes Erik Spoelstra look like Pat Riley.


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## Luke

When did Spo become a good coach? I mean he outcoached Brooks in the finals but that's the only good thing that anyone on this site has ever said about him. The difference between him and Brown isn't important. Neither one of them are good coaches.


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## e-monk

Eternal said:


> Sorry,
> Bynum has the potential to be better then Howard, but will never be better IMO, unless he grows up. He just doesn't bring it every night and takes games off more often then not. Howard for the most part brings great energy which that alone should be a big improvement compared to Bynum last season.


you're half right - Bynum certainly doesnt have the motor to be better than Dwight you're right about that and Im not sure he ever will - I think we'll find out this year now that all of his dreams have come true

but he also doesnt have the body, he's nowhere near as athletic or agile which means he will never be the help defender Howard is - better offensively? sure, maybe so already in terms of what he can do with the ball in the post (althought statistically Howard is still more potent at the same volume and has had less help from teammates pulling defensive attention) - if Bynum learns how to pass out of doubles he'll be a force on that end


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## Dee-Zy

Spo might not be a Pjax legendary coach but I think he is above average, maybe at best, good.

Nevertheless, Mike Brown is so bad, Spo is better and I expect him to outcoach Brown.


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## Jace

Most of us have been pretty hard on Spo at times, yes. These past two seasons have been difficult for everyone involved, basically until the OKC series. He makes some headscratching decisions and often comes across as contrived and artificial, but he's still an above average coach without a doubt. I think his first two seasons as head coach with Dwyane and the Titos were a strong indication of his value. 

On the other hand, I've ALWAYS been extremely low on Brown. Great record in CLE, but look at the teams he had. Good defensive coach, but he makes Spoelstra's offensive schemes seem D'Antoni-esque. Worst of all he's such a goofball it's clear he doesn't garner the respect of his teams. Both have the stigma of never having played in the league, but while Spo may be a bit corny at times, I get the feeling from players that he's generally more respected. 

Both are good for an unintended laugh in a post-game press conference though.


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## Luke

The fact remains that neither of them are good coaches. And neither of them are Vinny del-***** bad in that they can impact a game negatively. The difference between them will not have an impact on a potential series.


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## R-Star

Kobe coaches the Lakers.

Not one person on that team respects Mike Brown. The guys a ****ing joke.


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## Jace

I agree. Which is actually why I thought Nash would be great in helping Kobe guide the team.










_Isn't Mike adorable?_


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## Jace




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## Wade County

hahaha that pic is so creepy


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## Jace

SPOBOT WILL OVERCOME YOU WITH ENERGETIC GRIT AND A POSITIVE DISPOSITION

Video games are on the verge of getting mega creepy in terms of realism.


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## Dee-Zy

where the **** is that picture from!?


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## e-monk

the uncanny valley


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## Jace

2K13 head rendering.


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## Eternal

Mike Brown is sexier. =P


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## Jace

#NoFrameSwag


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## doctordrizzay

Mr Potato Head.


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