# Isn't taking a charge a steal?



## thebullybully (Jan 26, 2005)

Taking charges is considered dirty work that is important but not kept as a stat. Isn't it really just a steal? It's just as much a defensive takeaway. Any game stat and history guys here? Were they ever counted?

The Bulls have great charge takers, but it doesn't show in defensive ratings.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

thebullybully said:


> Taking charges is considered dirty work that is important but not kept as a stat. Isn't it really just a steal? It's just as much a defensive takeaway. Any game stat and history guys here? Were they ever counted?
> 
> The Bulls have great charge takers, but it doesn't show in defensive ratings.


no because a charge is actually a violation committed by a offensive player called a offensive foul.


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## SianTao (Jul 11, 2005)

TRUTHHURTS said:


> no because a charge is actually a violation committed by a offensive player called a offensive foul.


Well, one could say a block is actually just a failed field goal attempt by offensive player. 

In fact taking a charge is more useful play to the team than block, because it guarantees possession, which isn't always the case for a block (actually, most of the blocks do not result in possession). But it's not reflected in the stats, which is a shame indeed. It would be nice if it counted as a steal.


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## HINrichPolice (Jan 6, 2004)

That's why taking a charge is sometimes thought of a cheap play popularized by Scottie Pippen. It takes away from the spirit of the rule. Charge calls are supposed to prevent offensive players from barrelling into the defender, not allow the defender the opportunity to bait the offensive player into a violation.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

I wouldn't call taking charges cheap. It hurts the defender a lot more than the offensive player. If you're willing to put your body on the line, I wouldn't call it cheap.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

HINrichPolice said:


> That's why taking a charge is sometimes thought of a cheap play popularized by Scottie Pippen. It takes away from the spirit of the rule. Charge calls are supposed to prevent offensive players from barrelling into the defender, not allow the defender the opportunity to bait the offensive player into a violation.


That must be the reason why offensive fouls taken is not kept as an official statistic. It certainly would be easier to keep track of by scorekeepers than, say blocks, since there is a stoppage in play after each foul. 

Maybe it's part of a general conspiracy by the NBA to discourage players from agressive defense. Players like Nocioni who play hard-nosed defense get no statistical credit (which could help them get bigger contracts) while players who routinely play matador defense are not statistically penalized for their laziness in any way. That makes for higher scoring games, which the NBA may think is appealing to fans.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

SianTao said:


> Well, one could say a block is actually just a failed field goal attempt by offensive player.
> 
> In fact taking a charge is more useful play to the team than block, because it guarantees possession, which isn't always the case for a block (actually, most of the blocks do not result in possession). But it's not reflected in the stats, which is a shame indeed. It would be nice if it counted as a steal.



But a a block is actually a deflection of a field goal attempt by a defensive player

a charge would be classified as a rule violation by a offensive player 

like traveling or double dribble :biggrin:


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## paxman (Apr 24, 2006)

it definitely should be considered so. a charge IS a steal. and you can't
say that it's more about the fault of the person with the ball than the way 
his defender positioned himself. on that logic, if a player makes a bad pass
that goes straight to an opponent's chest who then takes it - that wouldn't be
considered a steal. of course, it IS considered a steal.

there are many flaws in the way statistics are taken.

for instance: if you pass to an open man down low, and he gets fouled from behind
as he tries to lay it in and inevitably misses, and now has 2 free throws, for every
free throw he makes, you should be awarded half an assist. to put it simpler: if you pass
to a player who then shoots but gets fouled, for every free throw he makes you should
get half an assist.

also there needs to be statistics that calculate a player's defense. steals are a horrible way
to do that, as a high number of those may be a result of gambling defense. players' value
for their contracts are heavily based on their statistics, meaning they're motivated to only
try hard on offense as defending well won't necessarily give them a better contract.

the field goal percentage from the 2 and the 3 needs to be completely seperated (i believe
when they tell you what the fg% is they include both). as 50 percent from the 2 is EXACTLY equal 
to 33 percent from the 3. if you make 3 out of 6 shots from below the arc you score 6
points. if you make 2 out of 6 shots from beyond the arc you score 6 points. meaning that if you
had 40 percent success in a certain game, many would think that's bad, but if half your shots
were 3's it actually could be pretty good.

there are many other problems, but I'm too lazy to remember them at 9 in the morning.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

No. A steal is a steal, a charge is a charge. There should perhaps be a stat kept for charges taken and I suspect somewhere there is, the benefits between a steal and a charge are similar but that doesn't make them the same thing, much like shooting 2 free throws will give you two points and dunking will give you 2 pts but a dunk is still a dunk and free throws are still free throws.


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## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

who really cares.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Pain5155 said:


> who really cares.



Apparently, the thread starter and those who replied. Thanks for playing.


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## thebullybully (Jan 26, 2005)

Pain5155 said:


> who really cares.


Well, since I asked the question, I do.

Thanks for the info to everyone else. Oddly, while watching the Italy vs USA game, the announcer mentioned Battier being in the NBA top 10 in charges taken, so it must be unofficially kept. I'll go look for it.


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## Wishbone (Jun 10, 2002)

I agree with that!

a steal is a steal. a block is a block -- and a charge is a charge.
In fact, stats should be kept for both charges drawn, and charges committed.

it would be very telling in an overall statistical anaylsis of a player. stat heads on 82games would go batty over it.
at the very least though, charges drawn should be considered an official stat, as it is a useful defensive strategy, and are frequently difference-making plays

... and now that I hear it, it seems pretty obvious - seperating 3pt shot attempts from regular field goal attempts is another brilliant idea. both stat-lines are kept in every box-score, so why not just show a players 2pt attempt % in one column and 3pt in the other? again, it would give a much better sense of a players effectiveness in any given game (and that's what box scores are supposed to do, right?)


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

I can all but guarantee you that even if the league doesn't keep that stat (charges taken) the teams do. I'm pretty sure that teams also keep track of charges by the offending player. If you check out a Euroleague box score, they keep track of fouls given (personal fouls) and also fouls received. It really is an interesting stat. If an offensive player (say, Chandler) sets an illegal screen, Chandler gets the personal foul but the guy whom he took out would get a foul received. If Noce gets popped in the grill by an offensive player because he's pissed at our pesky little Chapu, he gets whistled for the foul and Noce would get "credit" for the offensive foul.

The league may not keep these types of stats but I'd be shocked if most, if not all, teams do.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

To take a stab at the question of whether a charge is a steal - it's not. A steal means there was no stoppage of play. A charge is a turnover and it is rightfully recorded as such. Play stops when there is a charge and the ball is awarded to the other team. A steal takes place in the flow of a game and there is no stoppage of play, only the change of possesion. A steal is also a turnover but it is different from a charge (or really any offensive foul).


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## Cyanobacteria (Jun 25, 2002)

Why not divide charges into those where the defensive player was motionless versus being hooked by the offensive player versus when the offensive player wards off a shot block with his off hand? Why not divide steals up into halves for the guy who tipped the pass and the guy who caught the deflection? Why not give an assist to the pass before the assist like they do in baseball and hockey? Why not give half a rebound for a controlled tap and 1/4 of a rebound for an uncontrolled tap? Why not keep separate 2 point fg %'s for shots in the lane versus out of the lane (for players like Troy Murphy and Croshere who don't do anything imbetween shooting a 3 or shot-faking a 3 and driving all the way to the basket)? Why not credit a "hold" to every player that comes into the game with a lead and then leaves the game with a lead? Why not try to create a number like quarterback rating with some nonsensical untis like [(poitns+rebounds+assists)/turnovers squared]*square root of your mama's body mass index? ...Oh wait, lots of people already do that.

A charge is't a steal because sometimes the defender forces the action and sometimes he doesn't. A good defender can force the man he's guarding to travel, but it's not a steal either. Some people try to keep track of "forced turnovers" but it's a fairly nebulous and judgemental stat. There are only so many people out there that enjoy 82games.com stuff. 

As for the contracts, the parties involved could watch the games instead of quoting a player's [(poitns+rebounds+assists)/turnovers squared]*square root of your mama's body mass index.

Side note: When I played high school ball, the stat keepers for everything besides points were 2 high school girls volunteering their time to travel wth the team, but they didn't play basketball at all and spent frequent stretches of the game gabbing instead of keeping stats.


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## thebullybully (Jan 26, 2005)

Cyanobacteria said:


> Why not divide charges into those where the defensive player was motionless versus being hooked by the offensive player versus when the offensive player wards off a shot block with his off hand? Why not divide steals up into halves for the guy who tipped the pass and the guy who caught the deflection? Why not give an assist to the pass before the assist like they do in baseball and hockey? Why not give half a rebound for a controlled tap and 1/4 of a rebound for an uncontrolled tap? Why not keep separate 2 point fg %'s for shots in the lane versus out of the lane (for players like Troy Murphy and Croshere who don't do anything imbetween shooting a 3 or shot-faking a 3 and driving all the way to the basket)? Why not credit a "hold" to every player that comes into the game with a lead and then leaves the game with a lead? Why not try to create a number like quarterback rating with some nonsensical untis like [(poitns+rebounds+assists)/turnovers squared]*square root of your mama's body mass index? ...Oh wait, lots of people already do that.


This is actually really getting to my reason for bringing it up at all. I have never been a stat watcher, but reading lots of information here, I've gotten a little bit interested in them, it's just that it seems the way they are divided is really unfair to a majority of players who make big game contributions that don't happen to fall in the box score. I'm having a big problem with the assists category too.

Maybe someone can point me to rules for what is and isn't an assist.

By the way, I think the point of stoppage of play is the definitive charge is not a steal answer.


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## Cyanobacteria (Jun 25, 2002)

To get an assist, I believe you must throw a pass that creates a shot opportunity for another player, and the created shot must be made. Again there's a bit of judgement thrown in although I believe statisti... statisticisti... stat keepers in the NBA are fairly consistent with what they allow. At other levels? Who knows? Some people think that you can only dribble the ball once between the pass and the shot or not at all. Some give you the benefit of the doubt all of the time.

Of note: I thik Kirk's assist numbers in the Worlds are suffering because of missed shots by his teammates. Paul had 17 assists and only 1 turnover through 2 games, wow!


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

For a pass to qualify as an assist, I believe (someone will correct me if i'm wrong) that the player that receives the pass must make no "basketball move" after receiving the pass and must make the basket. I also believe that the player can take no more than one bribble after receiving the pass. For example, a pass to a cutter who doesn't dribble (or takes one dribble) and lays the ball in - that would be an assist. A drive and kick to an open spot-up shooter who simply catches the ball and shoots would be an assist. The same drive and kick where the spot-up shooter uses a ball fake to get his defender in the air and then takes a single dribble to the side and makes his shot would not be an assist. A player who makes a steal near the opponents basket and shoots a pass out to a breaking teammate for a fast break dunk/layin would not get an assist if the player receiving the pass took a few dribbles to get to the rim. Stuff like that.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

For the reasons stated by Flash and Ace, a charge is not a steal. But it would be very easy to record it as its own stat. I don't see why it isn't. 

But at the same time, I'm not 100% sure I want it recorded because I don't know how it is viewed by officials. If it is viewed as a cheap play, reluctantly called, then I don't want it kept considering how good the Bulls' players are at drawing them. 

If it is looked upon as great defense that should be rewarded, then I do want the stat officially kept. 

Since I'm ignorant either way, the status quo is fine with me. Charges = a good thing as far as this version of the Bulls is concerned. Its an integral part of their defense.


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## thebullybully (Jan 26, 2005)

That helps alot, thanks. I played high school ball, but assists were not a stat kept, and I sure never got credit for the charges I took. The only stat I ever excelled at was free throw percentage, perhaps why I never got into paying attention to stats while watching basketball in the first place.

Last question for now I think is the charge itself. Counts as a turnover? Counts as a personal foul too?


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

thebullybully said:


> That helps alot, thanks. I played high school ball, but assists were not a stat kept, and I sure never got credit for the charges I took. The only stat I ever excelled at was free throw percentage, perhaps why I never got into paying attention to stats while watching basketball in the first place.
> 
> Last question for now I think is the charge itself. Counts as a turnover? Counts as a personal foul too?


Yes and yes.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

http://www.82games.com/charge.htm

And so it's the Chicago Bulls with their torrid defensive intensity in the second half of the season who come out on top for most offensive fouls drawn.

...and if we couldn't have guessed anyway, the Knicks were worst in the league in net offensive fouls, thanks in part to *the league leader in committing the offensive foul, Eddy Curry.*


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## HINrichPolice (Jan 6, 2004)

McBulls said:


> That must be the reason why offensive fouls taken is not kept as an official statistic. It certainly would be easier to keep track of by scorekeepers than, say blocks, since there is a stoppage in play after each foul.
> 
> Maybe it's part of a general conspiracy by the NBA to discourage players from agressive defense. Players like Nocioni who play hard-nosed defense get no statistical credit (which could help them get bigger contracts) while players who routinely play matador defense are not statistically penalized for their laziness in any way. That makes for higher scoring games, which the NBA may think is appealing to fans.


Just because I love the fact that our guys are willing to put their bodies in danger to garner more possessions doesn't mean that the charge as popularized by Pippen in the 90's doesn't go against the spirit of the rule. You do what you can to win. Unfortunately, that means Vlade Divac flopping on every play in the post versus Shaq or Eddy Curry getting unwarranted charge calls. The way charges have been called the past few years has taken away from the game itself. One has to expect that if it in fact helps the player's team win a ballgame.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> No. A steal is a steal, a charge is a charge. There should perhaps be a stat kept for charges taken and I suspect somewhere there is, the benefits between a steal and a charge are similar but that doesn't make them the same thing, much like shooting 2 free throws will give you two points and dunking will give you 2 pts but a dunk is still a dunk and free throws are still free throws.


what he said.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Da Grinch said:


> what he said.



Then rep a brotha! :biggrin:


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

HINrichPolice said:


> Just because I love the fact that our guys are willing to put their bodies in danger to garner more possessions doesn't mean that the charge as popularized by Pippen in the 90's doesn't go against the spirit of the rule. You do what you can to win. Unfortunately, that means Vlade Divac flopping on every play in the post versus Shaq or Eddy Curry getting unwarranted charge calls. The way charges have been called the past few years has taken away from the game itself. One has to expect that if it in fact helps the player's team win a ballgame.


I don't like to watch flopping, but at least the flopping player's team is penalized when refs don't make a call because the player has taken himself out of action. When Wade deliberately runs into a defender and drops pathetically to the floor, it's pretty much the same thing, although unfortunately refs often give him the call. 

So there's no need to legislate against flopping, offensively or defensively. There's only a need for officials to be aware that some players flop without getting fouled.


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## mgolding (Jul 20, 2002)

flopping blows but there is no way a charge is a cheap move. sometimes it involves getting polaxed into by a much larger opponent at full speed. I dont see whats cheap about that


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## HINrichPolice (Jan 6, 2004)

mgolding said:


> flopping blows but there is no way a charge is a cheap move. sometimes it involves getting polaxed into by a much larger opponent at full speed. I dont see whats cheap about that


Unfortunately, it seems as though we are years away from the refs being able to call a flop versus a charge or block. It's been one of the major changes in the way the game is played since the 80's.

Maybe it's just me, but I enjoy watching a defender and driver meet in mid air. I don't want to see an Othella Harrington continually take advantage of a rule just because the refs abilty to call for or against a flop is far from its maturity.


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