# Blockbuster trade that affects the game tonight [merged]



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

*Blockbuster trade that affects the game tonight*

http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70828

Marbury and Penny for Eisley, Mcdyess, Vujanic, Ward, draft picks. Wow. Isiah is not wasting time. Damn shame. McDyess is one of the nicest guys anyone could ever meet.


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## lou4gehrig (Aug 1, 2003)

*OT: Knicks get Marbury & Hardaway from Suns!*

Wow...amazing. Isiah Thomas is amazing or just stupid. You decide:

Knicks Get: Stephon Marbury, Penny Hardaway

Suns Get: McDyess, Eisley, Charlie Ward, Vrjanes, 2 First Rounders.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ISIAH IS A GENIUS.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Those 2 first-rounders would/could have been very nice players, and Dyess was looking pretty solid. 

But still, they got a superstar at a position they've been terrible in for...well, forever.

Marbury
Houston
KVH
Thomas
Deke?

or something like that. Pretty nice in the east, but still not that dangerous.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

People,

The Phoenix Suns have officially entered the Kobe Bryant sweepstakes


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> Those 2 first-rounders would/could have been very nice players, and Dyess was looking pretty solid.
> 
> But still, they got a superstar at a position they've been terrible in for...well, forever.
> ...


Please...

Are you kidding?

that's 3 all-stars in their starting lineup, and Penny as your 6th man.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Nice pickup of Marbury. He's taking a chance on Penny's knees. could pay off, could blow up.

I think McDyss is going to thrive out there and the Suns will likely get some nice players with those draft picks. Could be a nice move for both clubs.



BTW...some doubters may want to rethink their picks for the Bulls/Suns game tonight...Looks like Phoenix may be even more shorthanded.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> People,
> 
> The Phoenix Suns have officially entered the Kobe Bryant sweepstakes


very likely. They weren't going anywhere too fast with their current alignment, and as good as Steph is, Kobe is better.

PG by committee
Kobe
Marion
Amare
eh, whoever

that could be the best 2-3-4 combination in the league if Amare continues to improve.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Man why don't we trade them our first rounder and filler for Matrix???????


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Threads merged.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> 
> 
> very likely. They weren't going anywhere too fast with their current alignment, and as good as Steph is, Kobe is better.
> ...


And don't forget, the Suns are in the lottery. Sure to pick up something of worth there. 

BTW, mods, can we combine the 3 threads related to this trade please? Thanks.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Please...
> ...


one all-star, one good player paid like an all-star, one all-star by default in the east, and one former all-star who is 57 years old. And if Penny wasn't doing much in Phoenix, why is he such a great addition for NY?

They got better today, no doubt, but losing 2 first-rounders will prevent them from getting younger and/or better later. And they're still not contenders now.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Guys no doubt Suns just entered Kobe sweepstakes. But they may have also entered JC sweepstakes. If they fail in trying to sign Kobe then JC could become a fall back plan. They will have a ton of money to spend. Just food for thought.


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

The Knicks will continue to suc*!!!! Dont worry!!! 

I wish the Bulls could trade Curry or Chandler for the entire Knicks frontcourt :laugh:


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> 
> 
> one all-star, one good player paid like an all-star, one all-star by default in the east, and one former all-star who is 57 years old. And if Penny wasn't doing much in Phoenix, why is he such a great addition for NY?
> ...


Look at that lineup you showed to me and honestly tell me that is not a contender in the east.

You haven't seen Penny play this year, so I'll let that slide...

He's still got it.

This team is a definite top 5 team in the East, those draft picks won't be much.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

Holy frickin moly! The Suns have guaranteed themselves a nice lottery pick. From first glance, this trade seems very lopsided in NY's favor. The pick Phoenix gets this year won't even be lottery (assuming NY makes the playoffs, which they should now) and the other first rounder is conditional. The players Phoenix gets back are basically crap, except for McDyess (maybe). The one guy I don't know is the Vujanic kid. Anyone know anything about him? I guess Phoenix will clear up some nice cap room but what if they're not able to sign any of the guys they want? Then they're majorly screwed (see Bulls in 2000).

Time to change my game prediction...


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

So much for pep talks!!! 

From _today's_ NY Times:

Chaney gives MdDyess a pep talk, vote of confidence



> Knicks Coach Don Chaney had a conversation with Antonio McDyess to lift his spirits yesterday morning. His words had resonance.
> 
> "It was long enough to come out with both of our heads in the right direction," Chaney said. "He doesn't want to hurt the team. My conversation with him is: `I'm playing you, I'm playing you not for sympathy, I'm playing you to help the team.'
> 
> ...


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Im known as a Euro lover, but dont be the least bit surprised if Milos Vujanic becomes a better play then Marbury within 2 years. Phoenix won this deal in my mind. They get expiring deals, they are in a great position to get Bryant, they have 2 lottery picks and they get the best PG in europe (who is a kirk clone by the way). Job well done by the Colangelos


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

Im sure they are very happy over Arizona. Colangelo traded Schilling and Marbury away for a bag of chips in a new york minute. Geez.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

And just think I had a great chat with McDyess on new years and he said he wanted to stay in NYC. He didnt like Phoenix the one year he was there. Great guy. and a great neighbor when I am in NYC. You can do so much worse then this guy, even if his knee is gimpy


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> Im sure they are very happy over Arizona. Colangelo traded Schilling and Marbury away for a bag of chips in a new york minute. Geez.


I bet they're ecstatic. I would be. They're probably the clear front runners for Kobe and the team has been handed over to Amare and Matrix. Not to mention the lottery pick(s) they have to spend. Much better rebuilding plan than the Bulls IMO.


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## MagnusPinus (Aug 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Im known as a Euro lover, but dont be the least bit surprised if Milos Vujanic becomes a better play then Marbury within 2 years. Phoenix won this deal in my mind. They get expiring deals, they are in a great position to get Bryant, they have 2 lottery picks and they get the best PG in europe (who is a kirk clone by the way). Job well done by the Colangelos



I like Milos... I see him a lot of time in Italy.. but I'm sincere.... Steph comes from another planet... Milos will be good but not as Marbury... never


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

Given Isaiah's track record, I would suggest without even looking at the names changing teams that this is a bad trade for New York. What he has essentially done is guarantee that not only will they remain capped out for years to come, they also will have no draft picks through which to build the team.

This team will not work.

I loved Isaiah as a player, but he has done nothing right since..... including this trade.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Look at that lineup you showed to me and honestly tell me that is not a contender in the east.
> ...


maybe a contender in the east. They should make the playoffs definitely, but I'm not sure they're any better than NJ, NO, or Indiana, maybe even the Pistons. They certainly won't stand a chance against a western team if they somehow make the finals. I thought Penny looked like a non-factor in the game I saw a couple weeks ago, but that was just one game. But he hasn't been consistently good in a few years now. 

They're definitely a lot more interesting now, though.


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Im known as a Euro lover, but dont be the least bit surprised if Milos Vujanic becomes a better play then Marbury within 2 years. Phoenix won this deal in my mind. They get expiring deals, they are in a great position to get Bryant, they have 2 lottery picks and they get the best PG in europe (who is a kirk clone by the way). Job well done by the Colangelos


They didnt get Bryant, same as the Bulls didnt get McGrady, Grant Hill nor Tim Duncan. Theres is only 1 Kobe Bryant, so if they fail to get him (which is a very good possibility) they will sign....Ginobili? Crawford? All inferior talents in comparison with Marbury. 
And they dont need a SG to compete, Joe Johnson is a solid role player and now they must fill the PG and C position. Vujanic may come next year or not at all since he is comfortable in Europe.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> Given Isaiah's track record, I would suggest without even looking at the names changing teams that this is a bad trade for New York. What he has essentially done is guarantee that not only will they remain capped out for years to come, they also will have no draft picks through which to build the team.
> 
> This team will not work.
> ...


i cant insult this. 

By the way, people think so highly of Marbury that he has been dealt now 4 times in his career. thanks but no thanks. And under the NY lights? disaster waiting to happen


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> 
> 
> They didnt get Bryant, same as the Bulls didnt get McGrady, Grant Hill nor Tim Duncan. Theres is only 1 Kobe Bryant, so if they fail to get him (which is a very good possibility) they will sign....Ginobili? Crawford? All inferior talents in comparison with Marbury.
> And they dont need a SG to compete, Joe Johnson is a solid role player and now they must fill the PG and C position. Vujanic may come next year or not at all since he is comfortable in Europe.


They wouldnt make this deal unless they had assurances Milos would be coming. Its a done deal. And I would state that there is now a 1in2 chance of them getting Bryant. Phoenix, unlike Chicago during that time, is a very desirable place to play


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

With Dyess, Googs and Ward, that's 30 million off of the Suns payroll. They are last in the West, yet 5th in the league in payroll. Last placed teams shouldn't pay that., especially ones in such a small market as Phoenix. Don't forget they dumped Cliff Robinson, Jake Tsakalidis, Bo Outlaw for these very reasons. They've had to give up arguably their best player to move Penny's whopper of a contract. In return they get a prospect in Vujanic, a couple of picks, 20 million dollars in cap relief (and more in tax), and Howard Eisley, who is, um, a point guard. 

They're still young, and they're still talented. Vujanic, Johnson, Jacobsen, Marion, Voskuhl, Stoudemire, Carbakapa. They are all young, they are all good/solid. They also have plenty of room to work with in the upcoming free agency as well as a big pick. They've gone backwards, but they were last anyway. A shake up and a quick rebuild keeping their best two assets isn't a bad thing. 

As for the Knicks, . They are even freakin worse financially than they were to begin with, but it wouldn't bother Dolan THAT much or they wouldn't have done it. Houston/Marbury/Hardaway/Williams is a good 4 guard rotation. They're still slow and crappy up front, but in a couple of weeks they've gone from 8 power forward to 5. 


Depth things - 


Suns 

PG - Ward, Eisley, Barbosa 
SG - Johnson, Jacobsen 
SF - Marion, Carbapaka, Harvey 
PF - Stoudemire, McDyess, Gugliotta 
C - White, Voskuhl, Williams 

(I don't know if they will buy out Ward. I suppose they would, but his contract expires after this season anyway, and if they do they are pretty damn crap at point guard, unless they choose to play Joe Johnson there. But then they're short at point guard and weak at point. Could they do that and then re-sign Dermarr Johnson? 



Knicks: 


PG - Marbury, Williams, Norris 
SG - Houston, Hardaway 
SF - van Horn, Anderson (against us, Anderson played all 48 minutes at SG. That's something that should never happen.) 
PF - Thomas, Sweetney, Harrington 
C - Mutombo, Doleac 


In a few simple moves, Thomas has done some good stuff with the Knicks. They're badly badly buggered financially but on the court they are now a good team.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

I'm wondering how Amare/Dyess will work for the rest of this season. Dyess ain't a WC center and though Amare can hold it down there for spurts, he needs to be at the 4 also. However, a frontcourt with both players is probably option than relying on Voskuhl etc. at the 5. Dyess as 6th man, I suppose.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ShamBulls</b>!
> With Dyess, Googs and Ward, that's 30 million off of the Suns payroll. They are last in the West, yet 5th in the league in payroll. Last placed teams shouldn't pay that., especially ones in such a small market as Phoenix. Don't forget they dumped Cliff Robinson, Jake Tsakalidis, Bo Outlaw for these very reasons. They've had to give up arguably their best player to move Penny's whopper of a contract. In return they get a prospect in Vujanic, a couple of picks, 20 million dollars in cap relief (and more in tax), and Howard Eisley, who is, um, a point guard.
> 
> They're still young, and they're still talented. Vujanic, Johnson, Jacobsen, Marion, Voskuhl, Stoudemire, Carbakapa. They are all young, they are all good/solid. They also have plenty of room to work with in the upcoming free agency as well as a big pick. They've gone backwards, but they were last anyway. A shake up and a quick rebuild keeping their best two assets isn't a bad thing.
> ...


Shambulls, you make a great point here that I hadnt, barbosa also is going to be a stud. And now they free minutes up for him. unlike Starbury, this kid really gets after it defensively. i think Phoenix wins this deal. marbury is a killer of team chemistry just about anywhere he goes


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> I'm wondering how Amare/Dyess will work for the rest of this season. Dyess ain't a WC center and though Amare can hold it down there for spurts, he needs to be at the 4 also. However, a frontcourt with both players is probably option than relying on Voskuhl etc. at the 5. Dyess as 6th man, I suppose.


Dice is just rented goods. He will be gone in a few months. They werent happy with him last time he played there, they just want his expiring deal


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> Given Isaiah's track record, I would suggest without even looking at the names changing teams that this is a bad trade for New York. What he has essentially done is guarantee that not only will they remain capped out for years to come, they also will have no draft picks through which to build the team.
> 
> This team will not work.
> ...




That's a good point, but it's seemingly not an issue. They're a playoff team now. When the contracts they do have are expiring, they'll just deal them for some that aren't. Like they've done just now. That's the New York way. If done correctly, they can be a top team from this kind of moves. (If done badly, it results in moves like Ewing to Seattle uke: ). But they're a better team for this. Dolan clearly didn't mind about the money.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

there is an old adage, you dont rebuild in NYC. Thomas took that saying to heart


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> there is an old adage, you dont rebuild in NYC. Thomas took that saying to heart




It's probably why he was hired.


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> They wouldnt make this deal unless they had assurances Milos would be coming. Its a done deal. And I would state that there is now a 1in2 chance of them getting Bryant. Phoenix, unlike Chicago during that time, is a very desirable place to play


Yes, the Knicks thought they were getting Milos over here for 10 seasons already. I mean, you cant get assurance in this type of cases. Vujanic didnt sign any paper with the Suns and he would rather stay in Europe as long as the money is there. 
Why would Kobe be willing to share the spotlight with Amare and Marion? And why is Marbury a cancer and Kobe isnt one when he is all about me and my stats? And what if Kobe cant play pro ball in the near future (prison)? 
Many question marks, the Knicks win this deal so far.

So we say that a team thats headed to the lottery won the deal and a team that got a boost that certainly will guarantee a playoff spot lost this one? Mmmm...


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

first off mate, Milos has turned down the knicks for 2 years, not 10. Plus the Suns are in Europe in a big way. They wouldnt do a deal without atleast talking to Milos agent. I am 100% sure they did

Second of all, Bryant is not a cancer. he has 3 titles. Marbury hasnt even been to the playoffs 3 times.

third of all, Phoenix always does well in FA. And now Bryant can go to a team, be option number one, and have atleast 3, if not more, complementary pieces in place for a run as early as next year

fourth Phoenix wasnt going to the playoffs this year. But dont pen the knicks in either. Teams that Marbury has gone to after trades have played worse after getting him for that immediate season then before getting him

This is a tremendous deal for the Suns. Absol


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

Wow! This seems pretty smart for the Knicks.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Suns do enter the kobe Bryant sweepstakes and become an east coast type team by being the worse team in the west. 

As for the Knicks, At first I thought the two draft picks were going to hurt NY but they have some nice young people there now. If they make the playoffs in the east, which they will now, the two draft picks will not be high enough to worry about in their case. Lampe and Sweetney and Willaims all are young. They will be hurting at center in a couple of years. Dekembe cannot play forever. But it is clear that NY is not concerned about the future, just right now. If they are to sign Smith, i wonder if they want to make the kid into a center in the east?? 

NY competes in the east for sure. They are just as good as Detroit, NJ and Philly. Not as athletic as Indy, but could compete. 

NY is not a championship team and it seems important to them to stay in the playoffs. Nothing else matters. 

If Bulls lose tonight, it would be a shame!! But they have done it before. The Miami Heat team led by Chapman, a day before, Hardeway and Mourning came aboard, took it to us, soundly!! I still have nightmares from all of the threes they hit!!


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Phoenix looks like a great destination for Kobe as far as what he supposedly wants to accomplish. He won't be "sharing" the spotlight with Marion and Amare the same way he does with Shaq. He'll be the undisputed #1 guy, but he'll have two other all-star caliber, but not franchise, players to help him win games and they'll make each other look good. I don't think Kobe's arrogant enough to think he can take a team with NOBODY and lead them to the title. Look no further than his record last year without Shaq. However, I have no doubt he CAN take a join a team with Marion and Amare and make them playoff contenders.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Wow.

I'll bet Phoenix goes fishing for a center to play next to Amare and Matrix (and eventually Kobe)

Ilgauskas? If McDyess can regain his touch...he and Bron would be nice. We can stop all the Eddy won't get the max stuff too. Someone is going to sign him as soon as he goes restricted or (gulp!) UFA.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

add to these to the rlucas stupid predictions. please hold me accountable

1. The knicks dont make the playoffs this year
2. Byrant ends up playing in Phoenix
3. McDyess ends up in Seattle
4. The next Knick to be traded is Sweetney. He wont last the season there


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> first off mate, Milos has turned down the knicks for 2 years, not 10. Plus the Suns are in Europe in a big way. They wouldnt do a deal without atleast talking to Milos agent. I am 100% sure they did
> 
> Second of all, Bryant is not a cancer. he has 3 titles. Marbury hasnt even been to the playoffs 3 times.
> ...


First, Milos has the last word not his agent. Obviously his agent may push for the NBA but Milos said 1000 times he is enjoying his time in Europe and isnt crazy about the NBA. And he can get as many Euros as dollars in the near future, so money isnt an issue over here. Im not sure he is coming, but Its certain there isnt "Done deal" here.
Second, you dont measure "cancerness  " with titles. Or yes. Karl Malone is the biggest cancer, you know. 
Third, when was the last time Phoenix signed a big time FA? And why is it that McDyess doesnt want to go back to Phoenix? 
Fourth, the way it looks Phoenix wont make the Playoffs in 2004-05 as well. The Bobcats are going to play in the East (Unlike the Hornets, that already are 10 times better than the Suns). And the Clippers are willing to spend some money to improve, and everyone is improving over there.


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

Added, noted, smart *** response in the pipeline.


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> add to these to the rlucas stupid predictions. please hold me accountable
> 
> 1. The knicks dont make the playoffs this year
> ...


Mine:
1. Knicks will make the playoffs this year
2. Bryant ends up re-signing with Lakers
3. Who cares? He is done
4. Who cares? Another wasted first rounder


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> 
> 
> First, Milos has the last word not his agent. Obviously his agent may push for the NBA but Milos said 1000 times he is enjoying his time in Europe and isnt crazy about the NBA. And he can get as many Euros as dollars in the near future, so money isnt an issue over here. Im not sure he is coming, but Its certain there isnt "Done deal" here.
> ...


and Vujanic said this was his last year in Europe, so yes, I will believe him. He just didnt want to play in NYC and said so

Cancer, defined by guys who actually kill teams. Marbury has been dealt FOUR FREAKING TIMES now. Everytime he gets dealt, the team he leaves gets much better, the team he goes to gets much WORSE. To say Kobe is as big a cancer as Marbury is a crock. And your smarter then that. I know you are

I never said McDyess didnt want to go to Phoenix. I said they werent happy with him because what he did last time he was there. He went there, spent a year and then turned them down to resign back with Denver, leaving Phoenix undermanned. Phoenix will keep him for 5 months and let him go

Lets see, Phoenix has resigned these FAs before going way over the cap.
Danny Manning
Dan Majerle
Penny Hardaway
as well as resigning there own FAs. There are probably others. all of these guys were considered big time FAs when they were available. They havent had cap space for years, now they do, and as usual, because of the weather, good respected ownership, talented young forwards and a ton of money to spend, they are going to be a big time FA destinantion. Not to mention no state taxes


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## Natty Dreadlockz (Jul 21, 2003)

Just my opinion.. But.. Jerry and the Suns basically ran the best point in the league outta Phoenix in JKidd, because of his incident with his wife.. Would they really have an open arm's policy for the Kobster and his prob's?.. Not that I think he'll suit up in anything other than Purp and Gold, anyway's.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

what happened to innocent til proven guilty? if he is found innocent, he hasnt broken any laws. Phoenix will be in the bidding, and Kobe doesnt appear to want to have anything to do with Shaq and Phil anymore. In phoenix, he becomes the man, and he has some very nice complementary players already in place


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Charlie Ward has a buyout clause inhis contract that must be exercised by January 10. We probably don't need another backup guard, but if the Suns buy out Ward, he'll be a nice pickup for someone. He still has some ball left in him.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> Charlie Ward has a buyout clause inhis contract that must be exercised by January 10. We probably don't need another backup guard, but if the Suns buy out Ward, he'll be a nice pickup for someone. He still has some ball left in him.


id say he a ton better then brunson. But I am not a ward fan. i dont like his game, and even though I am not Jewish, I think his Jews killed Jesus comment has to be the absolutely most biggotist comment ever made by an athlete in this history of sports. And coming from a guy that is supposed to be a great person was highly disappointing. But having said that, Crawford and Kirk seem to play about 40 minutes a night each. a backup guard is definetely a need


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Cancer, defined by guys who actually kill teams. Marbury has been dealt FOUR FREAKING TIMES now. Everytime he gets dealt, the team he leaves gets much better, the team he goes to gets much WORSE. To say Kobe is as big a cancer as Marbury is a crock.
> ---
> They havent had cap space for years, now they do, and as usual, because of the weather, good respected ownership, talented young forwards and a ton of money to spend, they are going to be a big time FA destinantion. Not to mention no state taxes


Great post.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ShamBulls</b>!
> 
> That's a good point, but it's seemingly not an issue. They're a playoff team now. When the contracts they do have are expiring, they'll just deal them for some that aren't. Like they've done just now. That's the New York way. If done correctly, they can be a top team from this kind of moves. (If done badly, it results in moves like Ewing to Seattle uke: ). But they're a better team for this. Dolan clearly didn't mind about the money.


....and this philosophy works well barring injury. Isaiah didn't create the cap problems, so I can't fault him for trying to deal with what he's given. The problem is trading the picks. The only possibility for fresh blood into the organization now is trading expiring contracts for players other teams are trying to get rid of, using the mid-level exception whenever possible, and picking up second-rounders or non-drafted players.

While there are certainly examples of second rounders and non-drafted players who have succeeded, this is not the philosophy around which to build a winning ballclub.

As of right now, the 14-21 Knicks are in salary cap hell. These salaries are being payed to this group:

*PG*
Stephon Marbury
Frank Williams
Moochie Norris

*SG*
Allen Houston
Penny Hardaway

*SF*
Keith Van Horn
Shandon Anderson

*PF/C*
John Amaechi
Maciej Lampe
Dikembe Mutombo 
Kurt Thomas
Michael Doleac
Othella Harrington
Michael Sweetney

While adding Starbury and Penny (two players who are very marginal for having household "knick"names) may make them marginally better this season, does looking at this roster strike fear into your hearts now, let alone for the next three seasons?

I would hate to be a knick fan....... and this from an ardent fan of arguably the worst franchise in professional sports for the last 5 years.

Ugh.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

I think Isaih Thomas is an idiot.

This trade looks decent for the Knicks in the short term, but what does it do to them long-term? They get McDyess for the pick that turns out to be Amare Stoudamire (right? Something like that). McDyess barely plays during his time in NY. Now the Knicks have a good scoring guard in Marbury (with a fat contract) a questionable guard in Hardaway (with a fat contract) and no future draft picks with which to develop young talent. The Knicks aren't getting any younger. Maybe Lampe will finally get some PT for the Knicks with MyDyess gone. I'm just trying to figure this one out from the MY side of things. It's always been a win now and win at all costs culture in NY. The problem is, it aint working. I don't see this trade as necessarily reversing the Knicks mediocrity. It is just changing the nature of it.

Now the suns, I think they've done well. They won't have much to do this season but their future prospects look decent. Vujanic, by all accounts, is a damn fine guard. Whether he comes to the states is anybodies question but Pheonix might have a better chance at getting him there than the Knicks did. The Suns have unloaded a boatload of salary space and those knicks picks are going to end up being decent picks to go along with their own choices.

I don't know if the Suns can land Kobe, but at least they'll have a shot at him. Even if they don't they're in good position to either resign McDyess at a much lower wage or go after the FA of their choice.

Mark my words - Isaiah Thomas will be looked at as a hero by the NY fans and media, but when this thing goes south, those New Yorkers are going to be screaming that the Knicks bring back Layden.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> I think his Jews killed Jesus comment has to be the absolutely most biggotist comment


Well, he was just...

Never mind.


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## Natty Dreadlockz (Jul 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> what happened to innocent til proven guilty? if he is found innocent, he hasnt broken any laws. Phoenix will be in the bidding, and Kobe doesnt appear to want to have anything to do with Shaq and Phil anymore. In phoenix, he becomes the man, and he has some very nice complementary players already in place


Where did I mention he was guilty?


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

I'm still trying to figure out what 2 first rounders everybody is yelling about


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> I think Isaih Thomas is an idiot.
> 
> This trade looks decent for the Knicks in the short term, but what does it do to them long-term? They get McDyess for the pick that turns out to be Amare Stoudamire (right? Something like that). McDyess barely plays during his time in NY. Now the Knicks have a good scoring guard in Marbury (with a fat contract) a questionable guard in Hardaway (with a fat contract) and no future draft picks with which to develop young talent. The Knicks aren't getting any younger. Maybe Lampe will finally get some PT for the Knicks with MyDyess gone. I'm just trying to figure this one out from the MY side of things. It's always been a win now and win at all costs culture in NY. The problem is, it aint working. I don't see this trade as necessarily reversing the Knicks mediocrity. It is just changing the nature of it.
> ...


While Marbury may be a "scoring guard" He still avg. 8 assts a game. Lampe was part of the trade as well. Also Marbury is still relatively young


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> and Vujanic said this was his last year in Europe, so yes, I will believe him. He just didnt want to play in NYC and said so
> ...


I will believe Vujanic when I see him sporting a Phoenix jersey. I think we are lying if we say there is a deal in place and Vujanic is going to be a Phoenix sun next season. Even if he ends up in Arizona, its not a lock he will be an All-Star, not even a star. 
I never said Kobe is as big of a cancer as Marbury, I said why we consider Marbury a Cancer unlike Kobe? I mean, if you cant accept Shaquille O'Neal is the man on your team you need to check your ego. Kobe is so selfish, its unbelieveable. Can you see Kobe taking less money to play for a championship? I cant see that. Yes, he already won some titles but if he were all about winning and the team, why wouldnt he re-sign to stay with Shaq, Malone and Payton?
I will extend the deadline and give you some time to get the last big time FA that has signed with Phoenix. I know you can do better than that, bringing guys that re-singed with that team that arent even All-Stars.

At this very moment, the Knicks won this trade. Hands down. I dont have the crystal ball to know if the Suns or Knicks will win it down the road, but the Knicks wanted to add some big name and get closer to Playoffs and they did that. The Suns are now in the same class with the Bulls, partially rebuilding and heading to the lottery. Unlike Chicago, they will have money to spend but not enough Free Agents. What is kobe backup plan? I cant wait to see Amare being * up about losing Marbury!!


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

Why are we blaming Thomas?


He's merely enforcing the New York Knicks mentality.



You don't rebuild, you stay competitive.



They haven't been. He's traded their attributes (20 million in expiring contracts) and got a much better team as a result.


He's doing what he was told. He has to keep them competitive. As a result, they may never be great. But they will be good.


He was given a job to do. And he did it about as well as he could. Don't hate him, hate the Knicks mentality.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> I'm still trying to figure out what 2 first rounders everybody is yelling about


The Knicks' 2004 1st round pick and the Knicks' 2005 1st round pick (conditional).


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> 
> 
> I will believe Vujanic when I see him sporting a Phoenix jersey. I think we are lying if we say there is a deal in place and Vujanic is going to be a Phoenix sun next season. Even if he ends up in Arizona, its not a lock he will be an All-Star, not even a star.
> ...


They resigned Barkley, KJ and Chambers during their times there as well. They apparently didnt want to leave. Kobe will play there. To even call Kobe a cancer is full of it. Who was carrying that Lakers team in the 4th quarters of tight games? It wasnt Shaq

let me say it one more. Marbury has been DEALT FOUR TIMES. That means 4 teams didnt think enough of him to keep him. He has been dealt about as much as Jack Haley. Think about that for a second. Here is another fact. Immediately after being dealt, the team that he left GOT BETTER. The team he WENT TO, GOT WORSE. If that isnt the definition of a cancer, what is? Please dont be lumping Kobe Bryant in with that. Shaq wouldnt be winning titles without Bryant, and vice versa. In fact, the Lakers woudnt win this year without Bryant. 

Another big time FA that signed with Phoenix was Gugliotta as well. Yes, he was big time way back when.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> I think Isaih Thomas is an idiot.
> 
> This trade looks decent for the Knicks in the short term, but what does it do to them long-term? They get McDyess for the pick that turns out to be Amare Stoudamire (right? Something like that). McDyess barely plays during his time in NY. Now the Knicks have a good scoring guard in Marbury (with a fat contract) a questionable guard in Hardaway (with a fat contract) and no future draft picks with which to develop young talent. The Knicks aren't getting any younger. Maybe Lampe will finally get some PT for the Knicks with MyDyess gone. I'm just trying to figure this one out from the MY side of things. It's always been a win now and win at all costs culture in NY. The problem is, it aint working. I don't see this trade as necessarily reversing the Knicks mediocrity. It is just changing the nature of it.
> ...


He's giving them want they want--a short-term fix. 

But thanks for posting that roster. He's got more moves to make. Hmmm....


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> 
> 
> The Knicks' 2004 1st round pick and the Knicks' 2005 1st round pick (conditional).


Thanks TB#1 I didnt see that


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> I'm still trying to figure out what 2 first rounders everybody is yelling about


I think we are mostly working under the following assumptions:



> Suns President Bryan Colangelo confirmed to Suns.com that a major trade is in the works, but would not comment on the specifics at this time. Several media outlets are reporting that the Suns will re-aquire forward Antonio McDyess, guards Howard Eisley and Charlie Ward, the rights to Milos Vujanic and two first round draft picks in exchange for guards Stephon Marbury and Penny Hardaway. Check back with Suns.com this afternoon for more, as soon as it becomes available.


....from Sun.com


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

hmm I just read another report that had Lampe as part of the deal and it didn't mention any picks trading hands. maybe the details aren't ironed out yet or haven't been made public.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> He's giving them want they want--a short-term fix.
> ...


you/flash/and sham are right, isiah isnt to blame. He is under a ton of pressure to win now. Its the NY way. They dont accept losing at all. I think its a bit shortsighted but i respect that they demand results and demand then now. 

the reality is, Thomas saw this trade, said this MIGHT be able to get me into the playoffs this year (by the way, no one has mentioned Alan Houston is hurt). Lets do it. Thomas has alot left to do. He will deal Sweetney and Lampe first chance he gets. He doesnt like either guy. Sweetney is probably a bust, Lampe will be a tremendous pickup for someone. I think he will probably still look to get a 3 at some point and move KVH to the 4. That means Thomas is on the chopping block. Thomas is going to be the most active GM from here on out. Should be interesting to see what he does.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> 
> 
> The Knicks' 2004 1st round pick and the Knicks' 2005 1st round pick (conditional).


I thought league rules prevented trading consecutive first round picks - even if the second pick is conditional. The so-called Cleveland provisions.

I just went to espn's write up of the deal and I hadn't realized that Lampe was part of the deal. All the better for the Suns.

I know what Thomas is trying to do, the problem that I have is that I believe that he's hurt the Knicks in the long-term. 

Pheonix has some really nice young pieces. Kobe on that team next year would be scary. All they're missing is a center and depending on what their plans are for Lampe, he might make a helluva high post center.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> hmm I just read another report that had Lampe as part of the deal and it didn't mention any picks trading hands. maybe the details aren't ironed out yet or haven't been made public.


Highly possible.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

If they trade Lampe it goes from good to stupid.

They can't get rid of the youth they have.


I wonder if Cartwright would be in the running for head coach if Chaney's 'evaluation' didn't work out.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

OMG

Frank Williams and Keith Van Horn for Rasheed Wallace being reported right now


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> hmm I just read another report that had Lampe as part of the deal and it didn't mention any picks trading hands. maybe the details aren't ironed out yet or haven't been made public.


I was about to say the same


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> hmm I just read another report that had Lampe as part of the deal and it didn't mention any picks trading hands. maybe the details aren't ironed out yet or haven't been made public.


that just might be the case...

this is a great trade for both teams considering it follows what both are trying to accomplish.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Lampe is a part of the deal...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1700818


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> They resigned Barkley, KJ and Chambers during their times there as well. They apparently didnt want to leave. Kobe will play there. To even call Kobe a cancer is full of it. Who was carrying that Lakers team in the 4th quarters of tight games? It wasnt Shaq
> ...


I dont get your definition of cancer, please explain. Tell me what was wrong with Marbury to consider him a cancer? Any rift? Any on court action? Tell me. 
Again, re-signed this and that. Gugliotta, LOL. 
If you ask every player, every coach, 99% would rather play with Shaq than Kobe. Bryant is an MJ wannabe that is even selfish at the All-Star game. I even turned off the TV when I saw some seasons ago Kobe trying to win the ASG MVP not sharing the ball and jacking up shots. 
Horry was as important as Bryant in the Lakers championship run, he made some impressive shots. And Kobe can be slow down and held to 15 points. You cant stop Shaquille and he is the man in Los Angeles. But MJ wannabe wants that title instead of the NBA title.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> The Knicks and Suns have agreed to a multiplayer trade Monday that would return Stephon Marbury to his hometown.
> 
> 
> New York would acquire Marbury, Penny Hardaway, and Cezary Trybanski from Phoenix for Antonio McDyess, Howard Eisley, Charlie Ward, Maciej Lampe, the rights to Milos Vujanic, and cash.
> ...


.....from ESPN.com


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Lampe is a part of the deal...
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1700818


Then Phoenix really got the better of that deal. a young 7 foot center who can play once he gets focused. But as long as he is dating Miss Poland, that might be hard


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Lampe is a part of the deal...
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1700818


I saw that too. All I can say is... damn. Plus a 2004 pick unprotected.

Matrix, Amare, Zarko, Lampe, Vujanic
+ likely two high 1st rounders in 2004
+ 10M in cap room


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> I thought league rules prevented trading consecutive first round picks - even if the second pick is conditional. The so-called Cleveland provisions.
> ...


Lampe is part of the deal? Are the First round picks not included? 

Ok, I read the article. Suns get Lampe! Interesting for them. I bet Lampe will get some time out there! 

As for Ward coming to the Bulls, why not? He plays good D. Do what we have to do to make it happen but we have just a few days to do something! Guaranteed contracts are on the 10th or 12th aren't they?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> 
> 
> I dont get your definition of cancer, please explain. Tell me what was wrong with Marbury to consider him a cancer? Any rift? Any on court action? Tell me.
> ...



for the last time

MARBURY HAS BEEN DEALT 4 TIMES. THAT IS FOUR TEAMS WHO DIDNT THINK ENOUGH OF HIM TO KEEP HIM. OF THE FOUR TIMES HE WAS DEALT, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRADE, THE TEAM THAT HE WENT TO GOT WORSE, THE TEAM THAT HE LEFT GOT BETTER. 

If that isnt the definition of being a cancer, please explain to me what is? Kobe might be an *******, but atleast he is a winner. This kid isnt. never has been. and certainly wont be now under th glare of playing under the lights of his hometown NYC.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Then Phoenix really got the better of that deal. a young 7 foot center who can play once he gets focused. But as long as he is dating Miss Poland, that might be hard


I agree RLucas...

I saw him play in the preaseason and I see him playing the 3,4, or 5.

When it's all said and done, Phoenix will get out of this trade...

Kobe Bryant
Milos Vujanic
Maciej Lampe
A 2004 mid to late first round pick
A future mid to late first round pick

We know what Kobe will bring to the team, if Milos and Maciej pan out...

All I can say is WOW.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Speculation from a pretty reliable source that the Knicks are about to announce a KVH and Frank Williams for Rasheed Wallace deal by nights end


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> I saw that too. All I can say is... damn. Plus a 2004 pick unprotected.
> ...


Try 20M in cap room...

they're getting Kobe...

I'm with RLucas on that one.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Hmm... this Kobe to Phoenix talk.

Is this pure speculation or is there a shred of information that backs this idea? Just asking.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Speculation from a pretty reliable source that the Knicks are about to announce a KVH and Frank Williams for Rasheed Wallace deal by nights end


One word...

Finals.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> 
> 
> I dont get your definition of cancer, please explain. Tell me what was wrong with Marbury to consider him a cancer? Any rift? Any on court action? Tell me.
> ...


You bring up some good points about Kobe and Shaq and that is exactly why he wants out of LA. For the very same reasons you say! The stigma of having Shaq associated with the accomplishments of the Laker is too much for him to take! He wants to prove, posters who believe the way you do wrong. As for me, I am just watching. I can see both sides of this.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

haha, I wonder if the entire team will be different by the deadline. Has any team ever pulled that off?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> OMG
> 
> Frank Williams and Keith Van Horn for Rasheed Wallace being reported right now


Is this for real?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Speculation from a pretty reliable source that the Knicks are about to announce a KVH and Frank Williams for Rasheed Wallace deal by nights end


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

Kidd was traded like 3 or 4 times, so he is also a Cancer!!!! OMG!!!

Marbury was playing team ball but injuries didnt help. He isnt a Rasheed type of cancer either, so getting traded 4 times dont mean you are a cancer. And Marbury almost knocked down the Spurs in last year playoffs.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> Hmm... this Kobe to Phoenix talk.
> 
> Is this pure speculation or is there a shred of information that backs this idea? Just asking.


Pure speculation, but they will certainly be involved. if Bryant doesnt go there, they are perhaps the one team that will have the cap room to allow a team to get under far enough to get Bryant. 

if they dont use the cap space next year, they go for TMac the next year


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Speculation from a pretty reliable source that the Knicks are about to announce a KVH and Frank Williams for Rasheed Wallace deal by nights end


They will compete in the east! For sure if that is the case. However Van Horn was a big reason why NT was hot, recently. Make not mistake about that. 

I do like the trade for Phoenix now that Lampe is in it. They want to go younger and have a shot at Kobe.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Know how the world changed in one day a couple of years back?

The NBA is changing today.

Oh wow.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Is this for real?


Apparently the NY Radio is reporting this deal right now as well

for NYers, that is WFAN


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> Hmm... this Kobe to Phoenix talk.
> 
> Is this pure speculation or is there a shred of information that backs this idea? Just asking.


Pure Speculation. But stay tuned: Bulls will announce the signing of Tracy McGrady and Tim Thomas.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

One word if the Williams/Van Horn for Sheed trade happens as well is not Finals, its...


Chaos!


Marbury,Wallace,Houston,Penny,Thomas,Mutombo, yes all big names but chemistry problems galore.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Well as far as I'm concerned, I think this is so far, and going to be, the best NBA season in years...


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

Now if they get Rasheed, they got some serious talent. And yes, Sheed is indeed a cancer. Or not, since he wasnt traded 10 times.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Pure speculation, but they will certainly be involved. if Bryant doesnt go there, they are perhaps the one team that will have the cap room to allow a team to get under far enough to get Bryant.
> ...


If the east loses Kobe that makes the east that much worse than the west!! Mcgrady needs to stay in the east.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> Now if they get Rasheed, they got some serious talent. And yes, Sheed is indeed a cancer. Or not, since he wasnt traded 10 times.


is there a reason to be a smartass about it. Wallace is a cancer, so is Marbury. and yes, maybe that team makes the playoffs, not because its good, but because they are in the east. And they might not make the playoffs if Houston is hurt. Marbury has dragged down more teams then any player in recent history, save Orlando Woolridge


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> One word if the Williams/Van Horn for Sheed trade happens as well is not Finals, its...
> 
> 
> ...


they become the Blazers in the east. Not so much character problems, mind you, but talent! All that talent and what to do with it?? Hmmm.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> 
> 
> they become the Blazers in the east. Not so much character problems, mind you, but talent! All that talent and what to do with it?? Hmmm.


Win the East.

I bet the next thing he does is replace the coach.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Win the East.
> ...


Even more important to Thomas:

Beat the Pacers.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> 
> 
> they become the Blazers in the east. Not so much character problems, mind you, but talent! All that talent and what to do with it?? Hmmm.


I still dont think they go anywhere until Houston comes back healthy for them. He is sort of hit or miss now. There is only one ball on the court. and Marbury and perhaps Wallace are going to want it. and Marbury hasnt played a lick of D his entire career. It might work short term in the pathetic east, but that lineup wouldnt scare any real team IMO


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

So if they dont make the Playoffs, Marbury is the biggest cancer. If do make the Playoffs, its all thanks to the Eastern Conference.
If they advance to the second round, its because Jermaine Oneal went down.
If they advance to the East finals, its because Stern rigged this.
And so on...


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Try 20M in cap room...
> 
> they're getting Kobe...
> ...


http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/phoenix.htm
http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm


2004/2005 salaries on the books for PHX:

Matrix 11.3M, Jahidi White 5.9M, Amare 2.0M, Joe Johnson 2.4M, Trybanski 1.8M, Voskuhl 1.7M, Zarko 1.3M, Jacobsen 1.1M, Barbosa .9M

add to that...
Eisley 6.4M, Lampe .9M

This is <b>roughly 35.7M</b> before even factoring in Vujanic's deal. NCBulls estimates the cap to be 44-46M next season. Hence they have roughly 10M to work with pending the signing of Vujanic.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

IF Lampe is indeed in this deal then major props to Phoenix. Some crazy young talent even before you consider what they might do in FA with all that cap room.


Guards: Barbosa,Vujanic,Eisley,Johnson,Ward
Forwards: Marion,Jacobsen,Amare,Zarko,Gugliotta,Harvey
Center: Lampe,Voshkul,Williams,White


Lampe will be a perfect 5 to go with Amare. Marion is of course SF. Now not sure what they do with Barbosa or Joe Johnson but Vujanic will be outstanding at PG for them. Man I am impressed.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> So if they dont make the Playoffs, Marbury is the biggest cancer. If do make the Playoffs, its all thanks to the Eastern Conference.
> If they advance to the second round, its because Jermaine Oneal went down.
> If they advance to the East finals, its because Stern rigged this.
> And so on...



again, what has Marbury ever done to be considered a savior? My point has been proven, now explain to me why he is such a great find. 

BTW, anyone can put up great stats. But great players put up stats to help a team win. And he has never won. Not even close. He hasnt been to the playoffs more then 2 or 3 times, and never beyond the first round. Wow, keep hugging his nuts.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

I think if the Knicks add Sheed, they become a FIERCE team in the East.

They have to have a healthy Houston though....


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> IF Lampe is indeed in this deal then major props to Phoenix. Some crazy young talent even before you consider what they might do in FA with all that cap room.
> 
> 
> ...


You guys need to see Lampe play, he could play 3, 4, or 5.


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

Lampe just PM me and asked if there are some hot chicks in Phoenix and if theres any place to buy Scotch at 5AM. Anyone knows? 
He also seems to be more pumped up about throwing the first pitch at the Ballpark in Arizona than getting to the America West Arena.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/phoenix.htm
> ...


They would probably just sign Milos after signing Kobe. they can go over the cap to sign their own fas. At the worst case, they will facilitate someone else getting Bryant. and if Kobe does indeed go to the CLips, theyll just get Q and someone else. They did their job. 

Kobe/2 solid FAs
Lampe
First round pick (may still be lottery)
Eisley 
Vujanic

marbury
the polish center Trybarnaski (sp) he weighs like a buck 90
and Penny

Damn, think about that for a second. I always knew the Colangelos were smart. But this smart? The Knicks MIGHT get better, but Phoenix puts itself in the upper echelon next year cause of this. not all at the expense of the Knicks, but they win this deal going away


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

Now we've got Rasheed Wallace going to the Knicks for Williams and KVH??!!?? What in the world is Thomas doing? He's trading for what looks like a killer starting 5 on paper but where's the bench? What happens when one of those players get's hurt?

You don't completely blow up a team like this over one-third of the way into the season. That's just lunacy.

I'm telling you folks, the Knicks hiring of Thomas is gonna be the biggest mistake that franchise has ever made. Worse than grossly overpaying for Houston. Worse than picking Fredrik Weiss over Ron Artest. Worse than Luc Longely or Larry Johnson. Worse than trading Antonio McDyess for the pick of Stoudamire. (These are just a few Knick deals off the top of my head).

A mandate of win now because it's New York City is one thing, but Thomas has no idea what he's dong. It's gonna be a blast watching the Knicks have short term success and then all of a sudden flame out like a match in a vacuum.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> Now we've got Rasheed Wallace going to the Knicks for Williams and KVH??!!?? What in the world is Thomas doing? He's trading for what looks like a killer starting 5 on paper but where's the bench? What happens when one of those players get's hurt?
> 
> You don't completely blow up a team like this over one-third of the way into the season. That's just lunacy.
> ...


mcdyess and williams were acquired for nene and camby. still an awful deal for the knicks. good post flash


----------



## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, Malone shouldnt be Springfield bound cause he is all about stats, never won ****, and now he is playing for free in LA to get a title. :laugh: 
KG is another overrated piece of *. So he averages 23 Points, 13 Rebounds and 6 assists but never advance to the second round? Wow, talk about bust!!


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> You guys need to see Lampe play, he could play 3, 4, or 5.


Thomas and Pax share one common thing, they hate euros. Lampe is going to be a major star. It may take him 2-4 years, but its going to happen. But the rumors of his love life and partying did him in NYC. and Thomas just didnt want having him around, cause of his distate for anything european. His loss will be Phoenixs gain. Can anyone say Tractor Trailer for Dirk Redux?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, Malone shouldnt be Springfield bound cause he is all about stats, never won shi*, and now he is playing for free in LA to get a title. :laugh:
> KG is another overrated piece of *. So he averages 23 Points, 13 Rebounds and 6 assists but never advance to the second round? Wow, talk about bust!!


major reach, malone made the finals twice. would have had two rings if not for jordan. KG, time will tell. try again.

Does the name Purvis Short mean anything to you? If it doesnt, do a little checking up on him. That is who your boy is more like. great career interms of stats, nothing done when it mattered most


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/phoenix.htm
> ...





You can take away Trybanski from that total committed. They have about 12 million in sapce. Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less. But if Kobe wants to go there, the Suns and Lakers can work out a sign and trade, when they take back something simple such as the Suns first rounder and Jahidi White.


----------



## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> major reach, malone made the finals twice. would have had two rings if not for jordan. KG, time will tell. try again.
> ...


Again. "KG, time will tell". Tell what? He never advanced to the second round. But if we are talking about Marbury, its all because he is a cancer. 
Where can I buy some rlucas glasses??


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ShamBulls</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kobe can get the max to play in Phoenix, have top billing and have a chance to stick it to Phil and shaq four times a year. Youve got to believe he is looking the real estate section of the AZ republic as we speak


----------



## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ShamBulls</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why would LA make the Suns and Kobe a favour?? Jahidi who?


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> 
> 
> Again. "KG, time will tell". Tell what? He never advanced to the second round. But if we are talking about Marbury, its all because he is a cancer.
> Where can I buy some rlucas glasses??


KGs stats may never equal wins. They certainly havent in the playoffs yet. But I do know one thing, Minny became a better team for having him. NJ, Pho, and NY are all worse for having Marbury. There really is no comparison. again, purvis short. Does it mean anything to you or are you just someone who says, great stats, must mean he is a great player?


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## ShakeTiller (Oct 13, 2003)

Well, you can scratch New York (along with Boston after the last game) from the list of team's in the League that Kirk could start for at PG. Who's that leave us with?


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

No, but you always look at it from your perspective. Whats so great about Stockton? Great stats, no titles. So whats important: Stats or titles? 
If we talk about player X, titles its what matters.
If we talk about player Y, stats its what matters.

Classic.


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## Medvedenko4Life (Dec 29, 2003)

Kobe is not going to phoenix 100% sure of that.

if for some reason he does leave he has 2 teams in mind already...

MEMPHIS

DENVER

No one esle trust me on that.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> mcdyess and williams were acquired for nene and camby. still an awful deal for the knicks. good post flash


I stand (or in this case - sit) corrected. I knew the pick was for a talented young big man. 

I guess I'm just gonna wait for official announcements regarding all these transactions. I just have a hard time believing that Thomas would make so many drastic changes to the Knicks in such a short amount of time.

Like I said... It's gonna be interesting if these deals are legit and they go thru.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ShamBulls</b>!
> You can take away Trybanski from that total committed. They have about 12 million in sapce. Maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less. But if Kobe wants to go there, the Suns and Lakers can work out a sign and trade, when they take back something simple such as the Suns first rounder and Jahidi White.


Whoops, forgot to include DropYourPantsSki... so that would be about 34M in guaranteed money.

Still with the rights to Vujanic, two high first round picks, and 12M in cap room? Look like the Colangelos will have a busy summer.


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Medvedenko4Life</b>!
> Kobe is not going to phoenix 100% sure of that.
> 
> if for some reason he does leave he has 2 teams in mind already...
> ...


My crystal ball tells me that Kobe already bought a house in Phoenix and that Vujanic is on his way to Phoenix this night to sign a deal with the Suns. Then, they will beat LA, Shaq and Phil.
And Marbury will send New York to the lottery again, and get traded during Draft Night to the Long Beach * for Dennis Rodman.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> No, but you always look at it from your perspective. Whats so great about Stockton? Great stats, no titles. So whats important: Stats or titles?
> If we talk about player X, titles its what matters.
> If we talk about player Y, stats its what matters.
> ...


quit being a jackass

Stockton made the playoffs every year of his career and played in 2 finals. Marbury has made the playoffs, once? twice? Never advanced past the first round, was repeatedly traded and the teams he went to got worse. You dont have to win titles to be a winner. But if you think Marbury is a winner then it is you my friend who needs to sit down and rethink your knowledge of the game


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

Let's assume for right now that Phoenix never pursues Kobe. As the latest version of the trade stands, Phoenix ends up with this roster:

*PG*
Charlie Ward
Howard Eisley
Leandro Barbosa

*SG*
Joe Johnson
Casey Jacobsen

*SF*
Shawn Marion 
Donnell Harvey

*PF/C*
Amare Stoudemire
Antonio McDyess
Maciej Lampe
Zarko Cabarkapa
Tom Gugliotta
Cezary Trybanski
Jake Voskuhl
Jahidi White
Scott Williams

After this season, you let either Ward or Eisley go and hope that Milos Vujanic is willing to come over. McDyess, Googs, and Trybanski all hit the road as well. Next season, before any FA signing (and remember they'll have plenty of money to sign.....) their roster stands at:

*PG*
Charlie Ward -or- Howard Eisley
Milos Vujanic
Leandro Barbosa

*SG*
Joe Johnson
Casey Jacobsen

*SF*
Shawn Marion 
Donnell Harvey

*PF/C*
Amare Stoudemire
Maciej Lampe
Zarko Cabarkapa
Jake Voskuhl
Jahidi White
Scott Williams

+ their own draft pick
+ NY draft pick
+ whatever FA they sign

I'd love to be in their position!


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> quit being a jackass
> ...


Im not saying he is a winner. But sometimes you support your view with stats, other with # of trades, other with titles.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Phoenix still doesn't have a center, even if they sign Kobe.

So before we order the champagne for PHX next season, let's remember that a PHX team w/ Kobe and Vujanic would still only be the 4th or 5th best team in the Western Conference. JMO.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> Let's assume for right now that Phoenix never pursues Kobe. As the latest version of the trade stands, Phoenix ends up with this roster:
> 
> *PG*
> ...


Even if you take out Kobe, add in Q and some other FA and that team is still loaded. Good post Wynn, no insult on that one


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> 
> 
> Im not saying he is a winner. But sometimes you support your view with stats, other with # of trades, other with titles.


I never have. i said he has great stats. But his stats never add up to wins. Everywhere he goes, they end up HATING him. The only stats that do matter are wins and losses. And the teams he goes to get worse. that is proven. So if you want to mock me, do it with some sense of respect and some facts. I like debates. But to say that I said STOCKTON IS A LOSER cause he never won a title is stupid. Kobe is clearly not the nicest guy in the world. But his game has helped the lakers win. Sorry if you disagree with that, but it is a fact. Shaq certainly didnt win, INSPITE of Kobe.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> Phoenix still doesn't have a center, even if they sign Kobe.
> 
> So before we order the champagne for PHX next season, let's remember that a PHX team w/ Kobe and Vujanic would still only be the 4th or 5th best team in the Western Conference. JMO.


Lampe


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Medvedenko4Life</b>!
> Kobe is not going to phoenix 100% sure of that.
> 
> if for some reason he does leave he has 2 teams in mind already...
> ...


Are you aware of Kobe's current situation in Denver right now? If so, this remark seems rather uninformed.


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> 
> 
> Why would LA make the Suns and Kobe a favour?? Jahidi who?






Because they could watch Kobe walk for absolutely zero compensation, or they could broker a deal to get something back for him. The 6 million dollar expiring contract of White and a first round pick count as assets.


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## Medvedenko4Life (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>curry_52</b>!
> 
> 
> My crystal ball tells me that Kobe already bought a house in Phoenix and that Vujanic is on his way to Phoenix this night to sign a deal with the Suns. Then, they will beat LA, Shaq and Phil.
> And Marbury will send New York to the lottery again, and get traded during Draft Night to the Long Beach * for Dennis Rodman.



Wow thats exactly what i was thinking, except instead of dennis rodman id trade him for master p.:laugh:


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you aware of Kobe's current situation in Denver right now? If so, this remark seems rather uninformed.


Your on a roll!


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

> Phoenix still doesn't have a center, even if they sign Kobe.
> 
> So before we order the champagne for PHX next season, let's remember that a PHX team w/ Kobe and Vujanic would still only be the 4th or 5th best team in the Western Conference. JMO.


I respectfully disagree SD they will be very good with that team and Kobe.


Vujanic,Eisley,Barbosa
Bryant,Johnson
Marion,Jacobsen,Harvey
Stoudemire,Cabarkapa,Williams
Lampe,Voshkul,White

Throw in their pick and the NY pick and that team has some amazing depth with a lot of versatile players that can play multiple lineup combos.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

they might be able to draft Pavel as well. Getting a center wont be that hard for them. They are in great shape


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Lampe


rlucas, I know you're high on Lampe. But if he's the future at the 5 for Phoenix, they won't be getting past the first round of playoffs anytime soon. Even with Kobe.

I've always thought that PHX matched up well with San Antonio largely b/c Marbury played Parker and the Spurs tough. In fact, there were times when he was almost unstoppable. PHX loses Marbury in this deal, and the Spurs have Duncan, Manu, Parker and others locked up for years.

LA still has Shaq.

Sacto has Miller, Divac, and CWebb.

Dallas has Dirk, Toine, and whomever they plug in at the 5.

Amare is one of my favorite players to watch, but I have to admit that much of his offense was created through Stephon. I mean more than half of this points come from alleyoops and passes from Marbury. So Amare + Lampe/Voskuhl/Williams/etc. won't be carrying this team too far in the loaded West.

Let us remember that even before this trade, PHX was the worst team in the Western Conference. Adding Kobe, Lampe, 2 draft picks... subtracting Marbury? Hmm..... I have my doubts.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

Kobe to Denver? Memphis? Dude, do you even watch basketball? Memphis is capped out and Denver might be his future home in jail.

Kobe is as good as a Sun already. The Suns I feel should be able to get by withotu a legit center because other than Yao, who else is there? Shaq will be retired within 3 years and there's really no one else. Brad Miller? Duncan is a PF. I think they can make do with a rotation at center like the Bulls did with the 3 headed monster.

Also, if the Suns land Kobe, they don't have the money to throw at Tyson or Eddy, so no need to worry there. They will have to save to resign Amare within the next couple years.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> rlucas, I know you're high on Lampe. But if he's the future at the 5 for Phoenix, they won't be getting past the first round of playoffs anytime soon. Even with Kobe.
> ...


certainly not today Dave, your right. But give him 2 or 3 years. He is going to be off the charts good.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

I agree Lampe will be the perfect 5 for that team. Him and Amare will compliment each other well. Throw in Zarko at the 4 some with Amare at the 5 in a small lineup along with Voshkul for 15 minutes a game or so and they will be fine.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> Dallas has Dirk, Toine, and whomever they plug in at the 5.


I don't think Dallas strikes fear in anyone hearts...

Cuban's messed the team up so much its ridiculous.

Everyone knows what Dallas needs, but for whatever reason Cuban rather add "surplus" instead of filling a hole.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> certainly not today Dave, your right. But give him 2 or 3 years. He is going to be off the charts good.


Man rlucas, I hate hearing that.... :no: 

You've probably seen more tape of Lampe that anyone else on this board, so I'm gonna trust your opinion (I usually do of course! ). Its just that I've heard that line over and over and over on these boards. If a player is hyped, young, big and has shown flashes of skill and/or athleticism... then in 2-3 years that kid will be phenominal.

Which of these kids are going to be All-Stars w/in their first 5 seasons (Bender, DMiles, Brown, Nene, Tskitishvili, Darko, Diop, heck throw in Curry and Chandler to that mix too)?? The reality of the argument of 'this kid is going to be really good...' is that there are just as many studs as duds. A dud being a solid NBA player but not someone living up to the lofty expectations placed on him.

Again, I'll keep my eyes peeled on this kid Lampe and I do trust your general eval of talent. But until proven otherwise, I remain a bit skeptical


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

Just checked out the Suns forum and they don't seem to be high up on this trade, nor do they think they'll land Kobe. What are they saying at realgm, for those that frequent there?


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> I don't think Dallas strikes fear in anyone hearts...
> 
> Cuban's messed the team up so much its ridiculous.
> ...


Dallas has Dirk at the 4. Last I checked, he's still better than any frontcourt player on the Suns. Man, people really don't give Dallas much credit now do they? They are still a top 5 team in the West and better than any team (sans Indiana and maybe New Orleans) in the East.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Man rlucas, I hate hearing that.... :no:
> ...


Well you'll get to see him soon, because Phoenix WILL play him...


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

I think Isiah's next move, if he can't get Sheed, he might try to revisit that deal with Cleveland involving D Miles.

I kind of think now considering the trades he's made, he HAS to get Sheed.

Hell bring in Sheed and Qyntel.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Man rlucas, I hate hearing that.... :no:
> ...


Its smart to be a skeptic. He has issues. Like i said, the word in NYC is that he has zero focus. Well that change in Phoenix? who knows. His girlfriend is some famous polish girl, i think she is miss poland. She is off the charts hot. She was apparently a problem in Madrid as well. But i do know when he played this summer, he was a top 5 summer league performer. That doesnt mean squat, baxter was the mvp, but he showed a ton of ability. But he might have to lose the chick to reach his potential. But the skills are there. There might not be a nicer looking J on a 7 footer in the NBA


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

RLucas, 

Do you think Isiah is done?

I don't really think he can be, I think he has to find a way to bring in Sheed...

Man what if this team still had Spree...


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> RLucas,
> 
> Do you think Isiah is done?
> ...


i can tell you for a fact that he isnt. I think your right on Sheed. I know he hates Sweetneys game. if the KVH deal goes down, Sweetney is next. I think he might turn that entire roster over minus Allan Houston. Im not kidding about that.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Lampe is no 5,anyway u look at it.
from what i've seen the guy will be broken by all the C's in the league at least around the paint.he does not wanna play there.
Its about the same as saying Gogliota is suddenly a C .would anyone want googs as a C.

I do not mean to say Lampe is not going to be a good player,he just wont be a C.maybe just be written down as one on game charts.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bullet</b>!
> Lampe is no 5,anyway u look at it.
> from what i've seen the guy will be broken by all the C's in the league at least around the paint.he does not wanna play there.
> Its about the same as saying Gogliota is suddenly a C .would anyone want googs as a C.
> ...


His offense really isnt a 5. Your right about that. he is a shooter. But the kid is 7 feet 275 lbs. he can handle his own in there


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> i can tell you for a fact that he isnt. I think your right on Sheed. I know he hates Sweetneys game. if the KVH deal goes down, Sweetney is next. I think he might turn that entire roster over minus Allan Houston. Im not kidding about that.


wow...

I love this...

he could very well use Sweetney to get a first round pick back...

I think what's being seen today is work by 2 genius GM's....

Isiah is doing in less in a month what Layden couldn't do for years...

Colangelo, it doesn't matter what sport it is, he makes the right moves.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Its smart to be a skeptic. He has issues. Like i said, the word in NYC is that he has zero focus. Well that change in Phoenix? who knows. His girlfriend is some famous polish girl, i think she is miss poland. She is off the charts hot. She was apparently a problem in Madrid as well. But i do know when he played this summer, he was a top 5 summer league performer. That doesnt mean squat, baxter was the mvp, but he showed a ton of ability. But he might have to lose the chick to reach his potential. But the skills are there. There might not be a nicer looking J on a 7 footer in the NBA


Yeah I remember the summer league performances, as well as the fact everyone was so 'shocked' that he hadn't been drafted in the lottery. I guess he gets a fresh start in PHX far away from the crucible of NYC. For the record, I think it was a great idea to include Lampe, and kudos to Jerry C. for this trade.

Man oh man... where will Kobe go?

Maybe its a pipe dream, but I still think San Antonio is the ideal fit. Kobe stays in the West and gets to play under a great coach... on a team which happens to have the best big man in the game. And oh yeah, that roster is stocked w/ unselfish players too (assuming Kobe is a bit selfish ). Gawd, could you imagine Kobe running alongside Manu, Duncan and Parker? Sheesh.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Can Spurs afford Kobe and Manu? If not I want to the Bulls to become a player for Manu if the Spurs land Kobe. Trade JC,etc for a SF and let Kirk and Manu be our backcourt.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah I remember the summer league performances, as well as the fact everyone was so 'shocked' that he hadn't been drafted in the lottery. I guess he gets a fresh start in PHX far away from the crucible of NYC. For the record, I think it was a great idea to include Lampe, and kudos to Jerry C. for this trade.
> ...


Won't happen...

I think people don't understand that Kobe wants to be on a team that he can call HIS...

Going to the Spurs?

Please, that's Duncan's team and always will be Duncan's team.

Phoenix not only has money, a desirable place to play, good location (which i'm sure sits well with his wife), and play with some talented players around him.

Going to the Suns gives him the oppurtunity to be the head of that talent and have a team that he can call his own and receive the credit when the team goes anywhere, especially if he can do what Barkley couldn't do...

Win a championship there...


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah I remember the summer league performances, as well as the fact everyone was so 'shocked' that he hadn't been drafted in the lottery. I guess he gets a fresh start in PHX far away from the crucible of NYC. For the record, I think it was a great idea to include Lampe, and kudos to Jerry C. for this trade.
> ...


thats the nightmare scenario for the NBA and the Laker fans. It wouldnt surprise me if Kobe did it for a year just to stick to Phil and Shaq. He hates those 2 so much. But downt he line, i think he wants to go somewhere where he is the calling card. His ego is just too big. But San Antonio for a year makes sense. I have heard he wanted to go to philly or ny. But thomas apparently wont be under the cap anytime this decade so that isnt going to happen


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

i thought this was funny

assuming for a second that the KVH rumor that i posted earlier is mularkey (there is alot of talk on the Knicks baord that it is done but we will see), then remember this duo

Marbury and KVH

How far did they take NJ? Not very far. Sure, this team might have Houston, but if the Knicks dont get Sheed, then I am not scared


----------



## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> wow...
> ...


I think what you're seeing is one very good GM fleecing a novice GM. Isiah is accelerating the Knicks demise.

It's a balls-out gamble by Thomas. He just better hope that it pans out right because New York is one fickle town and one minute you're the king of the hill, top of the heap, a #1 - and the next you're yesterdays trash.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> i thought this was funny
> 
> assuming for a second that the KVH rumor that i posted earlier is mularkey (there is alot of talk on the Knicks baord that it is done but we will see), then remember this duo
> ...


agreed...

as I said earlier, I feel Isiah HAS to get Sheed...

This team isn't done yet...they're not fierce yet...one more move, and they're fierce.

He can get Sheed...

AND 

Everyone's complaining he gave up the draft picks, when he can send off Sweetney and get a first rd pick back for him.

I don't think there's any reason to be scared...yet...

But it would be nice to really see a contender come out of the East, and I'm not talking about the Nets.


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> i thought this was funny
> 
> assuming for a second that the KVH rumor that i posted earlier is mularkey (there is alot of talk on the Knicks baord that it is done but we will see), then remember this duo
> ...


True! The Nets never got very far with those two!! But did they have Thomas, houston, Anderson, Dekembe? 

I like the knicks team short term, but then, they have done this before and never made it to the ring! They will fall short again, long term. 

Good team in east. Thats is all. 

Question? Do other eastern playoff teams try and make a move in the east between now and deadline? I think so.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> I think what you're seeing is one very good GM fleecing a novice GM. Isiah is accelerating the Knicks demise.
> ...


Flash...

Isiah is doing exactly what is being asked of him to do...

He's rebuilding the team, but he's not rebuilding for the future with draft picks and praying the potential pans out. 

Instead he's doing it with proven players who are in the prime of their careers.

What do you want?

To be capped out with proven all-stars or useless garbage?

The goal is to win now...

That's what everyone wanted him to do...

Was Layden doing that?

No!

The Knicks were only hurting themselves holding the franchise back because of Mcdyess and practically begging Milos to come to town...

It's time to get to business, it's time to win and Isiah is doing that RIGHT NOW.


----------



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> 
> 
> True! The Nets never got very far with those two!! But did they have Thomas, houston, Anderson, Dekembe?
> ...


You have to...

Look at what happened in the West this offseason, team signed player X, so another team signed player Y.

I think we are about to see the change that's been NEEDED in the NBA.

I think some of the talent buried on benches in the West is about to find its away into starting lineups in the East.

We're just getting started...


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> You have to...
> ...


yep! I think so too.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

If Lampe makes the allstar team in 2 or 3 years, the only thing youll hear on draft day is 

Fire Thomas

:clap: :clap: :clap: 

Fire Thomas

:clap: :clap: :clap: 

Fire Thomas

I think this is a very likely scenario

But i do agree, as is often the case with the city of NY (i lived in manhattan for 8 years) you sell your soul to the devil for immediate results. That applies to all walks of life in that city. Career wise, socialwise, financially wise, etc. The whole movie Wall Street did a great job portraying what life is like. And Thomas had to buiy into it


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> 
> 
> yep! I think so too.


But the opposite could be argued the other way as well too. Lampe is a star in the making buried on the IR in the Knicks. The west might have just added another stud big man


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Man I tell you this trading frenzy that has been going on for a while now this season just keeps on going. And we still have a good while until the trading deadline. Will Paxson get in on this trading frenzy some more before the deadline? I for one hope so.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> Man I tell you this trading frenzy that has been going on for a while now this season just keeps on going. And we still have a good while until the trading deadline. Will Paxson get in on this trading frenzy some more before the deadline? I for one hope so.


I have got to believe he does


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

Well I'm glad to see that some of the most knowledgable fans in pro sports (I mean that ) seem to think it's a great move for Phoenix. While I am coming to terms with it, I'm still not sure about the rationale behind it. Amare, Marion, and Marbury is (was) one of the best young cores in the NBA - all 26 or under, all signed through at least 2007 (and Amare on his rookie contract).

Bottom line - this trade will ONLY be a positive move in my eyes if Kobe comes to Phoenix. Other than that, a couple mid first-round picks and two prospects is NOT worth the second best point in the league. Who cares if we get rid of Penny - his contract is up in two years, and we have all of our main players signed longer than that anyways.

Watch Barbosa tonight guys, I have a feeling he is going to be something special for Phoenix in years to come. He is a freak. I have so much confidence in our management - there is no doubt in my mind that Marbury would be traded only if there was something we all didn't know about Leandro. He's going to be special.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Im known as a Euro lover, but dont be the least bit surprised if Milos Vujanic becomes a better play then Marbury within 2 years. Phoenix won this deal in my mind. They get expiring deals, they are in a great position to get Bryant, they have 2 lottery picks and they get the best PG in europe (who is a kirk clone by the way). Job well done by the Colangelos


i was thinking the exact same thing especially when i heard the extra players added in later (lampe for Czary) 

isiah paid too much in my opinion but he'll be king for a season or 2 with this trade for sure


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> Well I'm glad to see that some of the most knowledgable fans in pro sports (I mean that ) seem to think it's a great move for Phoenix. While I am coming to terms with it, I'm still not sure about the rationale behind it. Amare, Marion, and Marbury is (was) one of the best young cores in the NBA - all 26 or under, all signed through at least 2007 (and Amare on his rookie contract).
> 
> Bottom line - this trade will ONLY be a positive move in my eyes if Kobe comes to Phoenix. Other than that, a couple mid first-round picks and two prospects is NOT worth the second best point in the league. Who cares if we get rid of Penny - his contract is up in two years, and we have all of our main players signed longer than that anyways.
> ...


Marbury was never going to get you guys far. Your team is prime FA position now, plus you added some very nice youthful talent to go with it. Plus Barbosa, and Milos, will more then make up what Marbury brought to the table. Your team had a great day today. Enjoy #8 when he gets there (isnt Kobe number 8?)


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> But the opposite could be argued the other way as well too. Lampe is a star in the making buried on the IR in the Knicks. The west might have just added another stud big man


and a star PG...

let's just rename the west as the Euro Conference...


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> Marbury was never going to get you guys far. Your team is prime FA position now, plus you added some very nice youthful talent to go with it. Plus Barbosa, and Milos, will more then make up what Marbury brought to the table. Your team had a great day today. Enjoy #11 when he gets there (isnt Kobe number 11?)


Kobe is #8


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

rlucas you said you agree that Paxson will get in the trading frenzy as well before the deadline. What kind of deal do you feel he is looking for?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Kobe is #8


thanks mate, let me edit that


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> and a star PG...
> ...


hmm combine that with Shaq, Kobe and Duncan (KG as well) and is there any reason why they are so much better then the west. Damn they are fleecing us again.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> rlucas you said you agree that Paxson will get in the trading frenzy as well before the deadline. What kind of deal do you feel he is looking for?



I dont know, I just hope it isnt another deal with Toronto 

I think his big mark on this team happens this summer. I really think he will take Howard or Emeka if Deng isnt there and deal either Chandler or Curry. But that deal isnt the one that he is going to make today. Davis is probably going to be moving on to a contender in the west. and he might try to bring a big contract back with Davis and Fizer (who is coming off the books) back. But its just a guess


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> rlucas you said you agree that Paxson will get in the trading frenzy as well before the deadline. What kind of deal do you feel he is looking for?


Look this is what we need to do...

We need to keep our core and add to it...

I'm all in favor of bringing in a young guy or 2 who is sitting on a Euro conference's team's bench....

We're not in the same position as the Knicks so we can't do what they are doing...

If we HAVE to trade someone from our core it better only be for an established star player, not more potential...

From our core, the most expendable player is Tyson, plain and simple.

If you don't know why, I'll tell you...

You can get another Tyson, there are a lot of athletic talented fours...

Complain about Eddy all day, he's still going to be a top 5 center in this league...

Jamal, well I just think he's an amazing talent, and he's starting to get it...he can only get better.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

I think that Chandler and Curry are safe unless a TMac or Pierce type deal is available. I still think JC is being showcased but I get fleeced for that opinion so oh well.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Flash...
> ...


I know what Isiah has been told to do. My contention is that he's simply changed the pieces of a medicore team and hasn't really improved them all that much and he's simply given away a decent, if very raw, talent in Lampe as well as a couple of future picks and cap space.

On paper this looks like a great knicks team but lets assume that both rumored deals go thru. You've got some serious team issues with those guys. Marbury needs his shots. Wallace needs his. Houston needs his. They've gotten arguably weaker on the boards and they've lost a great deal of depth. Who's the backup PG now?

I've never been impressed with Isiah as a business man. I can't stand the Knicks. I know that I have some bias in that respect. I can admit that. I just don't like the trade from a team standpoint if I'm the Knicks. The NBA isn't a short-term league. There are no quick fixes and what Thomas has done is greatly reduce future avenues of possibilities for what will turn out to be a failed way of thinking. NBA teams take years of playing together as a unit to even approach the status of title contender. It took Jordan and his bulls 7 years to get that first title. The Lakers with Shaq and Kobe took 3 or 4 to finally get it right. The Rockets had to have a Jordan retirement and even then Olijawon, Horry, Cassell and Smith played together for a number of years before getting their titles. I just don't see a bunch of shoot-first players thrown together on a team with such a glaring focus of attention as New York City almost one-half of the way into the season making all that much noise. On the Suns side, it makes sense. They're not going anywhere this season anyway. 

It's the whole win now because it's New York mentality that is the curse of the Knick franchise. Do you folks realise how long it's been since the Knicks have won a title? What, about 25-30 years?

I just don't think Thomas was the right man for the job. He's got no backbone from a business sense and he's just completing a knee-jerk reaction to what he believes the owners and fans want. 

The Colangelos are taking advantage of a guy who's under pressure to do something. They lose very little if NY succeeds because they get some mid-to-late first round picks that they can keep or package. If the Knicks flop, the Suns just got a couple of very nice picks that can help them a great deal. All the Knicks will have to show is a dysfunctional team and very little hope of changing things.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> I think that Chandler and Curry are safe unless a TMac or Pierce type deal is available. I still think JC is being showcased but I get fleeced for that opinion so oh well.


I think JC is still available. Ironically, i think Skiles is growing to like him, but i think Pax just despises him


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> thats the nightmare scenario for the NBA and the Laker fans. It wouldnt surprise me if Kobe did it for a year just to stick to Phil and Shaq. He hates those 2 so much. But downt he line, i think he wants to go somewhere where he is the calling card. His ego is just too big. But San Antonio for a year makes sense. I have heard he wanted to go to philly or ny. But thomas apparently wont be under the cap anytime this decade so that isnt going to happen


Nightmare for Lakers fans, a dream for all other NBA fans though...

Per the Kobe debate, I really think it would behoove him to go to a team with a young stud 5. San Antonio comes to mind, so does Houston, maybe even the Bulls.. HAHA. If we can take Tracy McGrady as any example (I consider TMac and Kobe to be similar talents) or even Paul Pierce, its clear that they have their own 'calling card' as the clear Alpha options on their respective teams. But both of these teams just do not have enough bangers in the post get it done. Call me a skeptic (uh oh here I go again) but Kobe is closer to Pierce/McGrady than MJ... so he's gonna need a stud big man if wants to sniff the 2nd round of the playoffs.

I hope I'm wrong. I hope Kobe goes to PHX and that they can blossom with whatever combo of big men in PHX (through trade or draft) to make them an elite team. Maybe they get Pavel, Perovic, or Okafor to man the paint. They could be a scary, scary team.

On a lighter note, if Kobe should happen to sign at PHX, wouldn't their squad look a lot like our original Bulls championship squad?

Vujanic - Pax
Kobe - MJ
Matrix - Pip
Amare - Grant
Voskul/Williams/Lampe - Cartwright/Williams/Wennington

Does anyone know if the rights to Luc Longley were involved in the deal as well?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> but i think Pax just despises him


Why, and why would he?


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> I think JC is still available. Ironically, i think Skiles is growing to like him, but i think Pax just despises him


I wish I could order my JC Clippers jersey now...


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> On a lighter note, if Kobe should happen to sign at PHX, wouldn't their squad look a lot like our original Bulls championship squad?
> 
> ...


Talent wise....now I'm commenting on talent....

That's A LOT more talent on that Suns team.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

I don't think Paxson likes JC because Paxson is a basketball purist type, which I am as well, and therefor is not enamored with JC's game.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> I don't think Paxson likes JC because Paxson is a basketball purist type, which I am as well, and therefor is not enamored with JC's game.


I HAVE to think he deserves more credit than that---and will do whats best for the team.

If he doesn't like Jamal, it probably runs deeper than that.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Oh I know it involves more than that just was offering that up as one of the reasons. I do give Paxson more credit than that.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

everyone on this thread, its been great. Im off to a dinner meeting. Ill check back in later. Good posting by everyone


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> I HAVE to think he deserves more credit than that---and will do whats best for the team.
> ...


I think Jamal catches a bad rap a lot of the time. On another board we were talking about Jamal and whether he is best suited to play pg or sg. I am of the opinion that Jamal seems most productive at pg and that perhaps we should try Hinrich off of the ball. Anyway, someone says Jamal is a "shoot first" pg. I take exception to that because I SEE Jamal look to set up his teamates before he looks to take his shot. Sure, every once in a while he will JUST create for himself, but he isn't a selfish player by any stretch of the imagination. I argued that he is more of a "shooting pg" but that "shoot first" pg is more of a misnomer. And one of the posters came back and said "Jamal brings the ball past the 10 second line (he meant 8 second line) and shoots it just about every play, how can you say he isn't a shoot first pg? 

And I am just shaking my head because I have seen practically every game this season (as well as seasons past) and Jamal simply doesn't do what he said he does. It makes me wonder where people form their opinions about JC's game at. Sure, I'm sure that there are plenty of people that watch the game, know the game, and as a result know about JC's game. There is probably also a group that watches the games, doesn't know their behind from a hole in the ground, and forms erroneous opinions on his game simply based on what they see. Then there are probably a whole bunch of people that never even watch him play but simply form their opinions based on the ever present and ongoing Jamal threads they find here and elsewhere. Anyway, I knew I had a point coming into this post! :grinning:


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

I will admit that Crawfords highest ceiling is at PG ala Francis. Problem is we have Kirk is needs to play PG as well. We may have to choose between one or the other. The backcourt with them both in it is working well for right now but is NOT a long term fix by any means IMO.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> I will admit that Crawfords highest ceiling is at PG ala Francis. Problem is we have Kirk is needs to play PG as well. We may have to choose between one or the other. The backcourt with them both in it is working well for right now but is NOT a long term fix by any means IMO.


I agree with you (miracle of miracles!). I think the best solution would be trying Kirk off of the ball and seeing how he does. Obviously JC hasn't done as well off the ball as I would have hoped. So, maybe Kirk plays well off of the ball and if so there is no cause to make a trade. But, if neither Kirk or Jamal can be effective at the 2, one of them will need to be dealt. I don't know who I would choose if given the choice because they are both pretty darn good and they both have room to get a lot better. But, Jamal's impending contract issues could make him the off man out, I guess we will see.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

How did this thread get to talking about Jamal again? :sigh: 

Sometimes this Bulls board is like watching soft porn... there's 100 different ways to start it, but it always winds up in the same damn place. And you know what? It satisfies no one.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> How did this thread get to talking about Jamal again? :sigh:
> 
> Sometimes this Bulls board is like watching soft porn... there's 100 different ways to start it, but it always winds up in the same damn place. And you know what? It satisfies no one.


I just reached a state of zen.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Well ACE I this does seem to be the case. I have really grown to enjoy Hinrichs game and from many talks to Bullhawk(aka KirkHinrich and Wolverine) Kirk will not be able to play the SG position either. The kid is a true talent at the PG spot and needs to play there fulltime. I think you are right that the impending contract situation of JC may mean his days are numbered here in Chitown. You have to admit the Chicago fans are already in love with Kirk primarily. He is already loved more than JC even it seems by the reaction of the fans at the games.


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## jimmy (Aug 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> How did this thread get to talking about Jamal again? :sigh:
> 
> Sometimes this Bulls board is like watching soft porn... there's 100 different ways to start it, but it always winds up in the same damn place. And you know what? It satisfies no one.


Exactly. Why is Jamal still the most scrutinized Bull when a guy like Eddy Curry misses 2 1/2 weeks with a bruise on his knee. 

His shot is inconsistent but so is Hinrich's and Gill's.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> I just reached a state of zen.


I just came....
























by to check on the board and see how everyone is! 


:laugh:


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

lol....

I did too...

Hard....














ly noticed there were other posts here because this thread is so full.

:laugh: 

ok im done


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> Well ACE I this does seem to be the case. I have really grown to enjoy Hinrichs game and from many talks to Bullhawk(aka KirkHinrich and Wolverine) Kirk will not be able to play the SG position either. The kid is a true talent at the PG spot and needs to play there fulltime. I think you are right that the impending contract situation of JC may mean his days are numbered here in Chitown. You have to admit the Chicago fans are already in love with Kirk primarily. He is already loved more than JC even it seems by the reaction of the fans at the games.


I'd still like to see Hinrich try off guard for an extended period. He has looked ok playing there in strecthes IMO. And while I can see teh contractual reasons for dealing JC instead of Kirk, I think the Bulls have to do whatever is best for the team, whatever that may be, regardless of who is more popular with the fans or whatever.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd still like to see Hinrich try off guard for an extended period.


Nah...


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## Happyface (Nov 13, 2003)

I like the trade for the Knicks. Marbury is one of the best PG's in the league, hes undervalued imo. Hes got to be happy about playing in NY too, i remember when he wanted to be traded from Minnesota originally, i think he asked to go to NJ or NY, his hometown. Dont sleep on Penny. Penny is still pretty good, theres an article that i dont feel like linking where Penny talks about being frustrated in Phonex because he doesnt get the playing time or isnt in the game down the stretch. I've watched Phoenix play a few times this year, Penny is still pretty good, and very unselfish. You can tell hes alot slower, but hes an excellent post up guard, and creates some great mismatches imo. Not nearly as quick as he used to be but you can see that veteran smarts in him. When his current contract expires, i would love to pick him up for cheap, but i'm not sure hes worth what hes making now. 

PS Joe Johnson stunk more often than not imo, he reminded me of Tim Thomas in Milwaukee, i felt abit sympathetic to Penny. Both players the organizations want to develop and have given every opportunity to develop, and both are the most inconsistant players in the league. They can have great games, but more often than not they'll shoot their teams out of games more than win their teams games while taking stupid shots. Their shooting percentages must be awful, not bothering to loot it up tho.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

I agree GB no way you ask Kirk to play SG. The boy is a very good defender but he is only 6'3 190. I mean either JC plays SG or he goes. This is the hand we are dealt.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> I agree GB no way you ask Kirk to play SG. The boy is a very good defender but he is only 6'3 190. I mean either JC plays SG or he goes. This is the hand we are dealt.


Say Jamal and LH had come to the Bulls at the same time as Jamal and Khalid El-Amin did...

Where what who would we be now? 

Put another way, based on what we've seen---where will KH be when he's had the time around the league (injury or not) that Jamal has had?


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

If the Suns are serious in the aspirations about Kobe they have to deal further salary 

They have 10 guaranteed contracts at $34M 

Add in their lottery pick and the one they get from New York that will be fringe lottery or very mid first round and your talking another $5M 

So that's $39M for 12 bodies 

And then there's Milos - who has big wraps and may be around $2M starting

$41M for 13 bodies

With a salary cap of say $45M I don't think $4M will be enough to sign Kobe outright 

The only truly tradeable player with big worth as a trade chip right now is Shawn Marion , and coincidentally , he just happens to have a salary around $11M - about the amount of money they need to clear to offer Kobe something in the ball park of $15M , and still fit in under the cap 

There is no way in hell Phoenix will trade Shawn Marion NOW to buy this cap position on a "maybe" of acquiring Kobe

I would expect them to have an exit strategy for Shawn Marion over the summer to a team with space to absorb him without taking back any value if there was a contingent agreement reached with Kobe Bryant 

But who's get space ?

Utah ? Don't need him with Kirilenko and Harpring 

Clippers ? They could let Q walk, play Maggette at the 2 and play Matrix at 3

Denver ? Melo at the 3 and both Melo and Matrix aren't swing types that you can play legitimately at the 2 guard

Charlotte ? Da Ding!! We have a winner 

Anyway ... if Phoenix are legit in their aspirations for Kobe and Matrix is moved in the summer .. the ripple effect of that will filter all the way through the free agent market effecting the bidding price for 2nd grade free agents like Crawford

Personally, I think Phoenix keeps their powder dry and Kobe stays home and they wait until the summer of 2005 when they will have around $32M for 11 bodies ( allowing for 3 further 1st round picks - 1 from New York and two lottery picks of their own ) and in that summer of 2005 ... they like with the other 6 or 7 teams in the league that should have space as opposed to the likely 4 teams that will have space this summer will go hunting for Pau Gasol, Tyson Chandler, Eddy Curry , Kwame Brown

And guess who needs a big man to complement Amare and Matrix at the forward.... that's right - Phoenix

Yup this ain't about Kobe this is all about positioning for the summer after next

Milos and Leo at the point 

Jacobsen , Johnson and Zarko on the perimeter 

Amare, Matrix and Lampe at the forward

Jake the back up Center 

Lottery and other first round picks 

That'a a nice assembly of young talent 

And around $14M to shop for one of the young big men of the 2001 draft in 2005 

Phoenix wins this hands down 

Marbury ...

:laugh: 

The ultimate "skillz" player that has never really been a winner 

He's pretty but his teams don't get it done . He did come have a good year last year where they took it to San Antonio .. and he made the playoffs with the Wolves I think before he went to Jersey 

But how many years has he been in the league as a supposed difference maker?


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

this all makes me wonder what would have been if Marbury had just stayed in Minnesota.

I mean, all kinds of things would have happened very differently in this hypothetical, but just imagine the battles between Kobe/Shaq, Duncan/Parker/(DRob), and Garnett/Marbury/(Googs?), not to mention Sac and Dallas, presuming their rosters ended up being much the same. I have to think the western playoffs would have been epic from the 2nd round on, even more so than now.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Say Jamal and LH had come to the Bulls at the same time as Jamal and Khalid El-Amin did...
> ...


well in your time machine would Kirk be leaving after his freshmen year as well like jamal or larry Huges or are we talking sr. year kirk vs freshmen year jamal and larry ?


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

I think this might actually be a good trade for both teams.

With all the people knowledgable about the cap, we all know how Phoenix managed to clear a ton of cap space and get some talented young players and picks.

But New York needs a basketball savior, and Stephon is now that guy. This city was reeling without a Spree or a Patrick to be the figurehead of the team. 

Yes, rlucas, Starbury has burned bridges and made no permanent home for himself on his previous teams, but he is returning back to his hometown while entering the peak years of his career. Was there ever a time and a situation for a guy to turn it around? This is a guy who puts up a ridiculous 20/8 as it is. I can't even imagine how good he could be with his attitude in the right place. 

Maybe it's a pipe dream for this city, and god knows I don't care how good the Knicks are, but at least the Garden is going to be completely packed and full of excitement for a while now. 

It's really too bad for the Knicks that they had to part with Milos and Lampe, though. When I looked at their salary structure, gaping wound that it was, I didn't see any way how they could get their cap number much lower for at least three years. Even letting Dice walk at the end of the year hardly would have made a dent. They were so far gone I can almost see the logic of keeping the same philosophy and getting a great player, or at least the kind of player Jalen Rose wishes he was.

This trade will make the Knicks better for the short term, and I think they will make it into the playoffs, making it tougher on our Bulls to sneak in if we can improve.

Chalk us up for a win tonight. If we don't pull this one off, perhaps we need to be put out of our misery.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

If we lose tonight I'm going to have to bump the Bullsaholic thread for an emergency meeting -- required attendence for anyone left on these boards tomorrow.


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## Benny the Bull (Jul 25, 2002)

Just another thing to add to the Kobe to Phoenix rumors.

Bryant supposedly wears number 8 because that was the number Mike D'Antoni wore.


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## bulls (Jan 1, 2004)

> We need to keep our core and add to it...


IM SO SICK OF HEARin this.EC and JC is not getting it done this team has went nowhere with them.
so what are you going to blame the lack of heart and more importantly the lack of wins on now?rose is gone cant blame him now.going to blame injuries?they are teams that have had worse and do better then us.what about leadership?wasnt pip brought in to fix that?

when are you guys going to get it thur your thick *** heads ITS NOT WORKIN..its ppl like you that's keepin this lazy *** team together in the hope that maybe just maybe they will come around.but oyeah that happend this offseason and things just got worse not better..

i say trade EC,JC,AD who ever it takes to land some REAL PLAYERS ASAP or we will be here in 6mo's hearin the same BS about how GREAT these guys are but cant fig out why they cant win....


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

Oh my god, just caught wind of the blockbuster and all I have to say is: ISIAH STRIKES AGAIN

This guy has made a living off of bad decisions in an executive capacity. Remind me again why teams keep giving this guy a job???? He's the anti-Midas.... everything he touches turns to [edit]. (Perhaps "Mr. Hanky" is an appropriate nickname?)

The trade all sounds fine and good RIGHT NOW for the Knicks because they bring in a bonafide star in Marbury. But all it will do is bring a little life back to Knicks fans in the short term. In the long run, this team is going nowhere fast.

Where do you think a team that is (a) totally financially strapped with about 5 max deal players (b) will have no draft picks in the near future and (c) has no young talents coming up through the ranks, is going?

Is this team of Marbury, Houston, Hardaway, Van Horn, Thomas, etc even good on paper? I don't see a lick of defense on this squad save Candybones Mutombo, who's gotta be pushing 46.





Believe me when I say this.... this trade will be looked at years down the road as NBA's version of the Herschel Walker trade.


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## bulls (Jan 1, 2004)

stop knockin ISIAH,I for one wish PAX had just 1/10th the balls ISIAH has then maybe we would be somewhere other then the trash heap right now...


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bulls</b>!
> stop knockin ISIAH,I for one wish PAX had just 1/10th the balls ISIAH has then maybe we would be somewhere other then the trash heap right now...


CBA went bankrupt under Isaiah.

Pacers, with all of their talent, went nowhere under Isaiah.

Has there been anything that Isaiah Thomas has done since leading the Bad Boys to 2 championships that has worked?

I loved Isaiah on the court, but since then, he has truly been *ChiBullsFan's!* "anti-Midas". In fact, I think Isaiah has got the Midol touch.


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## bulls (Jan 1, 2004)

> CBA went bankrupt under Isaiah.Pacers, with all of their talent, went nowhere under Isaiah.


thats all fine but you cant say that will happen in NY,and you cant sit there and till me you wouldnt want a move for the bulls like what isiah just did can ya?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Benny the Bull</b>!
> Just another thing to add to the Kobe to Phoenix rumors.
> 
> Bryant supposedly wears number 8 because that was the number Mike D'Antoni wore.


are you Freaking kidding me? That is interesting

Insider talked about Kobe to the Suns. it turns out that the most the Lakers can give Kobe is is 14 mil. Right now, the Suns can give a little over 10 mil. But it turns out Kobe can make up the 4 million difference in the drop in state and local taxes from California to AZ. There appears to be a lot of smoke there. They also say that Vujanic is definetely going to play for the suns next year.

as a side note, that has been discussed here briefly, the suns dont want to make it close on Kobe, they want to make a definite. And they apparently are going to continue dealing as well. They are apparently ready to deal their lottery pick, unprotected and a contract for an expiring deal to keep cutting payroll. The Colangelos are betting the franchises future on Bryant. i bet they get him


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bulls</b>!
> 
> 
> thats all fine but you cant say that will happen in NY,and you cant sit there and till me you wouldnt want a move for the bulls like what isiah just did can ya?


Yes.

In fact, all of my earlier posts in this thread say exactly that.


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## C Blizzy (Nov 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> I think this might actually be a good trade for both teams.
> 
> With all the people knowledgable about the cap, we all know how Phoenix managed to clear a ton of cap space and get some talented young players and picks.
> ...


I've got to agree with you. Its a good trade for the Knicks. In one respect you have to ask yourselves, "What were their alternatives?" They had a bloated payroll and very little prospect of getting much better. Now they've got a bloated payroll with the possibility of getting significantly better.

If Thomas adds Wallace he'll have gathered a group of extremely talented veterans who have all at different times played for contending ballclubs. I think Thomas is banking on these individuals having such a strong desire to find a way into the NBA Finals that they'll do as Payton and Malone did in LA and shelve their egos for a chance at winning big.

Its an ideal situation. The Eastern Conference is weak. All the Knicks have to do is find a way into the playoffs. Hell, they may end up the most feared 8th seed in the history of the NBA post season. Make it to the playoffs and jell just in time to beat everyone. All they've probably got to do is win between 35 and 40 games to qualify.

Phoenix took a realistic view of their situation and decided to let the big boys out West beat on each other and get older while they re-tool and prepare to become a force in three years or so. I mean what's the point of them trying to remain barely competitive when teams like Minnesota and Dallas can't get a sniff of an NBA Finals with all their talent. So they'll start fresh with a nice nucleus that includes Johnson, Marion and Stoudemire among others.

This was a good deal for both teams that have different goals: NY wants to win now and Phoenix is willing to wait until the Western powers have killed each other off.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C Blizzy</b>!
> 
> This was a good deal for both teams that have different goals: NY wants to win now and Phoenix is willing to wait until the Western powers have killed each other off.


I guess this depends on your opinion of Starbury. IMO he's one of the fundamentally flawed players we were discussing on another thread. I believe Phoenix got better immediately *and* for the future, and the Knicks just the opposite.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> are you Freaking kidding me? That is interesting
> ...


RLucas

Check you sums 

If they sign Milos and add their inevitable lottery picks they will only have $4M 

They are not a player for Kobe 

And even if they had $10 and LA had $14M and the tax diffs made it sweet .... the ego of a megatsar like Kobe prohibits him fron being seen as less tham max dollars in nominal terms

Not good for his image but then again neither is... oh never mind


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> 
> 
> RLucas
> ...


FJ,

You can sign a free agent from another team before you sign a player you have rights to, like a Euro or a draft pick. Melo waited around to sign his deal for this very reason with Denver, although I don't believe they ended up going over the cap, but this is one way around the situation you're discussing above.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> FJ,
> ...


NC is the one guy who can answer this exactly. But this is what Fizer and Crawford did, as well as Brand and Artest and then Curry and Chandler. Sign as late as possible so you have more money for FAs.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> NC is the one guy who can answer this exactly. But this is what Fizer and Crawford did, as well as Brand and Artest and then Curry and Chandler. Sign as late as possible so you have more money for FAs.


I know in the case of first rounders they are lliable for the minimum under the scale until they are signed, but most teams sign for more than the minimum. I don't know how much the rights to an un-signed Euro count for under the cap.


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## Lusty RaRue (Sep 9, 2003)

The Knick 2005 pick can't be included if the 2004 Knick pick is unless they have another teams pick(I don't think they do but I'm usually wrong.)

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#70

-

State income taxes:

http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/ind_inc.html

-

I thought I read that if 'Sheed gets traded the player coming back must be able to play some minutes at the 5 spot but can't remember where. I think Portland will just let 'Sheed's contract run out.

-

Anyone else have "GM envy"?

-

Colangelo:
1.Young players of promise
2.Draft pick and possibly a second
3. Cap space

A hat trick

Paxson:
1.No young players of promise
2.No draft pick
3.No cap space

3 strikes and yerrrrr out!

-

FWIW: In the past on the B&B show on 670 AM they mentioned the terrible financial situation the Diamondbacks are in. I wouldn't be surprised if this had something to do with the trade today.

-

The Bull should blow out the Sun. If they lose the crowd should boo and Paxson should deal.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

Lucas

As Wynn stated , first rounders count against your cap

The Suns will have a lotto pick as well as one ( likely ) from New York

That's 12 players for $37M minimum 

As I said in my first post in this thread, they ain't got the gas to go after Kobe unless they unload Shawn Marion to say Charlotte who could use him in the summer 

Milos could be signed after the space was sucked up I guess ( if it was and which it won't be )


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

the Suns have 39 million in committed salaries next year if you add in the picks. according to ESPN. So if the cap comes in at 45 mil, that is 6 million. But apparently they are very close on making a deal. There is a rumor that they might be dealing Marion for Sheed and then letting Sheed go this summer. But this would be the second rumor I have heard involving Sheed in the last 6 hours. I beg John Paxson to deal for Shawn Marion if he is really available. Anyway, the Suns will deal still and be at 35 mil or lower by the deadline. But you are right as of this second on the cap situation. good job rockaway


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> I beg John Paxson to deal for Shawn Marion if he is really available.


Agreed! Tyson, Eddy, Kirk or Jamal and anyone else (Pip's expiring contract may be what makes it happen). With Matrix, and three of those four still on the Bull, we become monsters by 2004-2005. The monster SF is what we're missing!


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> the Suns have 39 million in committed salaries next year if you add in the picks. according to ESPN. So if the cap comes in at 45 mil, that is 6 million. But apparently they are very close on making a deal. There is a rumor that they might be dealing Marion for Sheed and then letting Sheed go this summer. But this would be the second rumor I have heard involving Sheed in the last 6 hours. I beg John Paxson to deal for Shawn Marion if he is really available. Anyway, the Suns will deal still and be at 35 mil or lower by the deadline. But you are right as of this second on the cap situation. good job rockaway


Lucas and Wynn

Milos is a 2nd rounder and whilst rights are held on him he ( and other 2nd rounders ) count nothing against a team's cap until signed 

Only once they have signed ( and depending on how much ) do they have an unrenounced value once their deal expires which counts against the cap ( at the unrenounced value ) until they are resigned by their team or by another team in free agency 

I am fairly sure that you can sign them up to the MLE limit ( so therefore it doesnt matter whether you are under or over the cap ) and I cite the recent examples of Dragan Tarlac ( gulp ) who we had on the books for $2.5M after drafting him in the 2nd round and holding him for awhile , and also , Marco Jaric who signed a deal starting at $2M with the Clips 

Toni Kukoc , another 2nd rounder , was also signed handsomely which caused a bit of a stink at the time when he finally came as I recall

Mac Lampe was also signed on above average odds for a 2nd rounder with the Knicks ( who effectively paid him as 1st rounder after they paid transfer fees etc ) 

Therefore if it was warranted and the Colangelos really wanted to to they could throw a contract an MLE type contract at Milos - and they might have to given the type of money that is floating around Europe at comparable levels ( to mid - upper MLE range )


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

How do trade Matrix for an expiring contract attached to an arsehole?


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

HOw bout Eddie Robinson, Marcus Fizer, Kendall Gill and 2 picks for Shawn Marion

or 

Jamal Crawford and Eddie Robinson and Marcus Fizer for Matrix and Joe Johnson


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## bulls (Jan 1, 2004)

ill bet the bulls lose


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## curry_52 (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Golden Bull 23</b>!
> HOw bout Eddie Robinson, Marcus Fizer, Kendall Gill and 2 picks for Shawn Marion


Does any GM, including Paxson, have a face to propose that deal??


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

The picks lottery protected

We dont lose any core and gain a permanent starting lineup plus a nice bench

PG-Kirk Hinrich/Rick Brunson
SG-Jamal Crawford/Chris Jefferies
SF-Shawn Marion/Scottie Pippen
PF-Tyson Chandler/Jerome Williams
C- Eddy Curry/Antonio Davis


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## bulls (Jan 1, 2004)

that trade will never happen Golden Bull 23,be nice tho  

when you shoot 38% from the floor like the bulls did tonight you should lose,but they got luckly


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## C Blizzy (Nov 13, 2003)

*Finances clearly drove the deal from Phoenix's perspective. In last place in the Pacific Division, the Suns are set to acquire two players in McDyess and Ward whose contracts expire at the end of this season. Ward also has a buyout clause for $2 million that can be exercised before Saturday.

Phoenix will drop from $5 million to $10 million under next season's salary cap, depending on where its draft picks land. That could allow the Suns to make a run at a big-name free agent, although it's doubtful that price range could snag Kobe Bryant.*

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...atrade,1,4161208.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Well, from KC's perspective, it doesn't look like the Suns have done enough financially to take a run at Bryant this summer.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>C Blizzy</b>!
> .com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-040105nbatrade,1,4161208.story?coll=cs-home-headlines[/url]
> 
> Well, from KC's perspective, it doesn't look like the Suns have done enough financially to take a run at Bryant this summer.


That's why they aren't done trading...


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

Which is basically what I was saying at the start of the day - only way the make a run at Kobe is if they clear Marion to space

They only clear Marion to space if a deal has been reached with Kobe in the summer 

Only way to clear Marion to space and for the Bulls to be a part of the action is for a 3rd team with cap room to be involved and for Crawford to sign to around $6M starting and throw Eddy Curry in 

Although because of Jamal's BYC status and in this scenario only counting for $3M as outgoing salary we have $11M coming in and $7M going out - still $3M - $4M short

That's why delaying on dealing Jay Williams may come in handy and why we should wait until the summer for a variety of reasons - including his contract value and termination rights but also to see how he is progressing

But Jamal and Eddy Curry in isolation for Matrix... as much as I love Matrix I don't think I would do it just to get him 

For Paul Pierce or a TMac I would .. but not Matrix


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

I could see a Ruben Patterson/Derrick Andersen for KVH deal going down 

*

Mutombo
K.Thomas
Patterson
Houston
Marbury

bench

Harrington
Sweetney
S.Andersen
D.Andersen
F.Williams

*


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## C Blizzy (Nov 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> But Jamal and Eddy Curry in isolation for Matrix... as much as I love Matrix I don't think I would do it just to get him
> 
> For Paul Pierce or a TMac I would .. but not Matrix


Agreed. And who knows, if Chandler is within two weeks of being activated, that would give the Bulls approximately 4 1/2 weeks before the trading deadline to determine if Tyson's back is fully recovered or not. The Rucker Boys might bring us an impact player. How do you think the Marshmallow Twins might feel about playing for the comatose Johnny Davis???


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

The Suns have somewhat of a drawback in that they take back Eisley's slug of a deal. They aren't getting the kind of money to go after Kobe, but they are getting plenty of flexibility in the cap department.

And they got what IMO is a pretty good price for Marbury... they got to axe Penny, which they wanted to do, and they got Lampe and two #1 picks. I think that given some time, Lampe could be sweet. Two #1s could also be sweet. Marbury's a good player, but I still think he's flawed... I don't see this making the Knicks much of a contender. They got an up-tempo, non-defense playing shoot-first PG to go with a slow-it-down, non-defense playing set of guys who can't create their own buckets.

And they gave away two #1s and a good center prospect to do it.

Hey, at least we get to see Van Horn and Marbury together again


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> Which is basically what I was saying at the start of the day - only way the make a run at Kobe is if they clear Marion to space
> 
> They only clear Marion to space if a deal has been reached with Kobe in the summer
> ...


I agree. With that package, not the matrix


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

I could have sworn I heard the Bulls announcers say Jahidi White was rumored to go to Utah, probably with a first rounder for Keon Clark. That would be enough (or damn near enough) space for Phoenix to at least go after Kobe..


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

Actually.. I'm kind of warming to the deal from New York's point of view 

I instantly liked it for Phoenix as it was clear they were blowing up and starting over around a very nice assembly of young talent 

I would put money on Isiah bringing in a tough guy defender at the 3 to complement Kurt the Hurt on the forward line

If Thomas can get Nash to bite on Keith Van Horn , the Blazers don't sacrifice one iota of their soon to be received cap flexibility in 2005 assuming they don't resign Dale Davis , Sheed and Stods 

Patterson has to be moved 

Its now Randolph's team and QWoo will play Tonto on Zach's sack 

Patterson can't stay with these guys long term for the sake of team chemistry 

Randolph , QWoo, Keith the Accountant ( hey he's boring but at least he'll stay out of Jail ) a couple of lottery picks for the next couple of years and around $15M in cap room in 2005 when Stods, McInnis and Sheedarama are all gone

MoMo might make them all rotarians .. perhaps a Portland Trail Blazers Christmas Carols CD


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## vankerck (May 22, 2003)

Oh yeah, i see the Suns also got the rights to Milos Vujanic (sp?), a guy who is apparently an awesome player but who kept turning his nose up at playing for the Knicks. If he comes over, that'll give the Suns yet another good young player from this trade.

This looks like a classic Knicks deal to me.... trade away a boat load of cap flexibility and young talent, take in loser and a guy who's past his prime.


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> I could have sworn I heard the Bulls announcers say Jahidi White was rumored to go to Utah, probably with a first rounder for Keon Clark. That would be enough (or damn near enough) space for Phoenix to at least go after Kobe..


No it wouldn't

Phoenix have to clear a further $11M assuming signing of draft picks forthcoming next summer

OK you deal a pick to Utah with Jahidi and that cumulative cost is going to $7M which is going to get the payroll down to approximately $33M for 11 bodies 

You could hold the rights to Milos and because he has no unrenounced value have $31M for 10 bodies - offer Kobesta his $14M and then sign Milos to whatever you wish for as you hold rights to him although it would be up to MLE limit - maximum I guess

Someone may want to correct me if my understanding of this is incorrect 

So yeah if Fatso went to Utah - you could probably scramble enough room to make a legit play without clearing Matrix

But why would Utah want to burden their payroll with $7M of crap over the next couple of years when they have positioned themselves to be a legit player in the free agent market themselves with a very nice core of Kirilenko , Harpring and Lopez/Arroyo 

They are apparently pretty high on Pavalovic and DeShawn as well 

They need legit power players upfront and a big swinging dick swingman 

If Kev O'Connor does this deal he deserves a gigantic kick in the arse


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## Benny the Bull (Jul 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> are you Freaking kidding me? That is interesting


I heard that about Bryant and Mike D'Antoni. Supposedly D'Antoni played in Italy when Bryany was living there when his dad was playing there, and D'Antoni was Bryant's favorite player, and wore number 8.

I heard this one Friday on ESPN when the Lakers played someone. George Karl or Jim Gray mentioned it. 

Btw, I think Phoenix would have to dump some more salary to make a run at Kobe.


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## C Blizzy (Nov 13, 2003)

*Ward will walk free: Phoenix general manager Bryan Colangelo confirmed before Monday's game that the Suns will release Charlie Ward once the trade with New York becomes official.*

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sports_story.asp?intID=3799288

Charlie Ward...Indiana Pacers? Sounds like a match to me.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> If the Suns are serious in the aspirations about Kobe they have to deal further salary
> 
> They have 10 guaranteed contracts at $34M
> ...


who says they try to sign anyone in the off-season before kobe

they dont have to . its not some sort of rule 

11 mil for starters is enough considering they can do a sign and trade to get kobe a few extra millions like det. did when they got grant hill snatched away

afterwhich they can sign milos for the MLE and sign their draft picks and free agents to fill in their roster


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> who says they try to sign anyone in the off-season before kobe
> ...


You need to follow this thread and look at the sums which are not opinion but are fact 

For starters .. draft picks count against your cap and Phoenix will have a likely 5 - 8 position of their own plus New York's pick which will be late lottery or very mid first round - say an unrenounced cumulative value of $4M 

They are committed at $34M next year for 10 bodies ... or say $38M including their draft picks if they don't renounce them 

Milos doesn't count against their cap and can sign after free agent additions 

Even if they renounce their two 1st round draft picks, one certainly lottery , and possibly both , or , if the rumoured Jahidi White deal to Utah for Keon Clark goes through ( which it won't as it will encumber the free agent playing Jazz with salary for dead wood ) then Phoenix still only has $11M to offer Kobe 

State taxes and the like and making up the diffs between $11M and $14M is crap.

Its about positioning and ego .. and Kobe is a max player. No way he signs for anything nominally less even if the end effect is the same

*For the last time ... its is not an opinion , it is a matter of fact , Phoenix must clear at least $8M and possibly up to $11M in order to sign Kobe Bryant . Jahidi White to Utah isn't going to get it done , nor is dealing your 1st round picks for someone else's future first round picks - a combination of both those scenarios together - perhaps together - IE a lottery pick and FatArse to Utah for eating his salary at $5.5M per for the next 2 years may do the trick . But the most liquid of their assets is Shawn Marion and he just happens to earn the type of money that Phoenix need to clear if Kobe can agree with them on a contingent deal which involves shipping Marion *

And if you think Jerry Buss is doing a sign and trade for Kobe .. for anyone less than TMac or Paul Pierce think again


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