# Dwyane Wade



## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Easily the most difficult superstar to project going into next season. We have all seen him play at a remarkably high level for the majority of his career, but last year was absolutely a let down. People focus on his playoff shortcomings but the reality is that he was mediocre (by his very high standards) all year long. This could be a result of a variety of things; injuries, condensed schedule, age etc.

My question is: will Wade return to his old form or is this the natural progression of a reckless player that has taken a major beating in the last near decade?


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

It' all boils down to health. Clearly Wade was hampered all season and post season with a bum knee. Quite remarkable really he was able to sustain the level he did all things considered. If Wades surgery is a success and his knee holds up all season, he should be back to his old form. If not, we could see another year of Wade battling injuries. And that would obviously give Ray Allen a much bigger role for the Heat.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

That depends on his offseason "training regimen".


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

Dwayne had a ton of REAL personal issues last year. *He came into training late because of his court/legal matters to obtain full custody of his boys. *Then, the crazy "ex" continued to stress him throughout the year by keeping the boys longer than she should have them during visitation and then purposely hiding the boys during the Finals; *stressing him to the point where he had to get a relative to search for her to get the boys.

Now that he has had surgery, he should be much better. Although, he is aging and has done a lot to his body physically, he can't return to the Dwayne that took the Heat to the Finals before LeBron arrived.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> That depends on his offseason "training regimen".


Ha. I agree 100%


I love the guys giving him excuses though. Dwyane Wade has dealt with nothing other athletes haven't already. And nothing he did last year was impressive. 

I fully expect Wade to Penny the rest of his career.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

It will also depend a lot on his shooting. We saw how Kobe and Allen were able to play long into their career by keeping their body fit and developing a killer shot. If Wade's shot improves, he won't have to take as much beating driving to the hole.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Dee-Zy said:


> It will also depend a lot on his shooting. We saw how Kobe and Allen were able to play long into their career by keeping their body fit and developing a killer shot. If Wade's shot improves, he won't have to take as much beating driving to the hole.


Now Ray Allen will be his teammate, not a bad older vet to have around to show these guys the kind of work he's put in to help develop and sustain the prettiest jump shot in NBA history.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I think it's somewhere in the middle. I think peak Wade as we knew him is gone. He's lost a step athletically and the injuries are clearly starting to get to him. That being said, he's crafty and talented enough to be able to sustain a top ten player in the league status for at least another season or two.

I do think that Bosh is going to have to assume more of a second option mentality sooner rather than later though.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

He could miss the entire regular season and it wouldn't really hurt the Heat that much. They can't afford for him to repeat last season's playoff performance though. They need to make sure he's healthy when it matters. Hard to see his game aging well at this point. He doesn't do much that isn't predicated on his athleticism and that's not good at his age and mileage.


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## mwlegend (Sep 3, 2012)

I've seen countless idiots predict this guy's demise for years now. First it was in 2005 after the injuries in the ECF. Then in 2007, when he was having an MVP caliber season and messed his shoulder up. Then messed his knee up the next season, only to come back that summer in the Olympics and in 2009, as strong as ever ... individually in 2009 was probably the leagues BEST player. 

In 2011, he beasted, and if it wasn't for his hip flexor in the Finals ... was EASILY the best player on the floor by a large margin. Then in 2012, he plays hurt, takes a deliberate backseat to LeBron to boost his self esteem ... and still puts up what? 24 / 5 / 5? And with a summer of rest all of a sudden he's a bum? He's still the best or at worst 2nd best SG in the entire league. Haters keep hating.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

mwlegend said:


> I've seen countless idiots predict this guy's demise for years now. First it was in 2005 after the injuries in the ECF. Then in 2007, when he was having an MVP caliber season and messed his shoulder up. Then messed his knee up the next season, only to come back that summer in the Olympics and in 2009, as strong as ever ... individually in 2009 was probably the leagues BEST player.
> 
> In 2011, he beasted, and if it wasn't for his hip flexor in the Finals ... was EASILY the best player on the floor by a large margin. Then in 2012, he plays hurt, takes a deliberate backseat to LeBron to boost his self esteem ... and still puts up what? 24 / 5 / 5? And with a summer of rest all of a sudden he's a bum? He's still the best or at worst 2nd best SG in the entire league. Haters keep hating.


Keep hating? 

I'll only keep hating if you promise to keep dick riding this hard.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Awwww. You banned him?

Dwyane haters!


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

I don't know what _will_ happen, but for the Heat to repeat this year I think the transition from Wade to Bosh as the second option needs to happen. Wade will show his flashes of brilliance this year, but probably just as often he'll show that he's a shell of his former self and a detriment to the team when he tries to "take over".


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

hobojoe said:


> I don't know what _will_ happen, but for the Heat to repeat this year I think the transition from Wade to Bosh as the second option needs to happen. Wade will show his flashes of brilliance this year, but probably just as often he'll show that he's a shell of his former self and a detriment to the team when he tries to "take over".


It's been this way for a couple of years, in the playoffs opponents try to get Wade to "take over" games because that represents their best chance at winning. He's never been a great shooter, but if he can learn to be a third option and run off double and triple screens he should get enough mid range jumpers to hold up as a third option. But the question with Wade is whether his ego will let him do that. Last year the injuries took that choice away from him. And the Heat won as a result.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I hate it when people say that Wade was the best player in the world in 2009. LeBron was very clearly better than him in the regular season and Kobe responded after a mediocre (by his standards) regular season with an incredible playoff run. Overall they both absolutely had more impressive campaigns.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Not Wade's time to become the 3rd option yet but the offense will go through Bosh more this season. Just like the offense went through Bosh this year but nobody noticed until the Pacers and Celtics series.

Note that I said going through Bosh, doesn't mean that he is the first option on offense.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Dee-Zy said:


> Not Wade's time to become the 3rd option yet but the offense will go through Bosh more this season. Just like the offense went through Bosh this year but nobody noticed until the Pacers and Celtics series.
> 
> Note that I said going through Bosh, doesn't mean that he is the first option on offense.


I get what you're saying and I agree.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Wade has two years top as an elite NBA player.

Undersize guards whom game rely on their athleticism usually fall off at around age 32. 

Kevin Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Allen Iverson are just a few examples.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Game3525 said:


> Wade has two years top as an elite NBA player.
> 
> Undersize guards whom game rely on their athleticism usually fall off at around age 32.
> 
> Kevin Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Allen Iverson are just a few examples.


Not that I'm some Wade backer and not that I even disagree about that timeframe, but all of those guys were six feet tall. Wade has at least three inches and 30 pounds on all of them.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I also think that this thread would have a lot more merit if the decision never happened. Wade having the ability to limit his minutes and pick his spots from here on out is going to prolong his effectiveness.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

He'll probably be dinged up like usual, the Heat just have to hope the brunt of it isn't in the Spring.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

If I'm not mistaking, Wade is listed at 6'4", which was his measurements in barefeet. He is 6'5" with decent wingspan, he isn't as undersized as people may think.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Ah, here...

http://collegebasketballnews.scout.com/2/115362.html

Wade was:
6-3 3/4 without shoes
6-4 3/4 with shoes

Which pretty much puts him at 6'5"

Interestingly, Bosh is 6-11 1/2 with shoes...


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Too bad there are no measurements for Lebron, dude remains a mystery.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Who cares about that shit honestly

Don't start cause then people are gonna be posting mug shots and pictures of people standing next to each other at the club and shit


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Honestly Wade could miss the entire eastern conference playoffs and the Heat would still make the finals. LeBron is that good and his complimentary cast lends itself better to his game next season than it has since the decision. 

The Heat will need to be fully healthy for the finals though. The Thunder will be a year older and the Lakers are lookin' real good.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Thing is if they didn't have him they'd be a lot more physically banged up playing probably two of the Pacers, Nets, Celtics without him. Those would be wars heading into the Finals. And I get that at that point everyone is tired but you want to prevent extra games if you can.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

They were banged up and almost lost in the semis and ECF last year and ended up winning. The theory sounds like it makes sense but there's plenty of evidence that points otherwise. They breezed through the east in '11 and we all saw what happened. The Lakers dominated the west in '08 moreso than '09 and '10 and we all know what happened. It's more of a matter of peaking at the right moment rather than fatigue from playing an extra game here and there.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I don't know I feel like you'd rather sweep/4-1 everybody then get into 6 and 7 game series' with physical teams, heading into the finals. Not that it would even matter at the end of the day, but I'm sure if given a preference they'd take that so they could come in relatively 100% and fully healthy


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

In most cases you're probably right. But it is probably helpful for teams to overcome adversity, particurarly younger and less experienced teams. I think the scares in the Indiana/Boston series helped Miami in the finals.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Exactly.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Wade is officially underrated. Not surprised. However I don't believe the Heat will get out of the East with out Wade playing a big role.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Wade is officially underrated. Not surprised. However I don't believe the Heat will get out of the East with out Wade playing a big role.


Probably not past Bynum and the 6ers.



What do you do? Cheer for whoevers poster is on sale at any given time?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Who exactly has underrated Wade in this thread and why?


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

The other thing regarding comparing Wade to Iverson, Thomas and these guys is that DWade has a post game. He's not 6 foot on a good day. Yes his best years are behind him, but he's still in the upper echelon of NBA players. 

It was also Wade's lowest minutes per game last year and he still managed to put up:

22.1ppg
4.6apg
4.8rpg
1.3bpg
1.7spg
2.6tpg (career low)
33.2mpg (career low)
49.7%fg
26.8%3fg
79.1%ft

So when you look at it, he was getting around 4 minutes less per game than his career average.

I think the Finals and Playoffs have impacted peoples perception of Dwyane, who clearly didnt have his best postseason - some of this can be attributed to his ailing knees, and hopefully the surgery he had has alleviated some of this stress.

I think the Heat will continue to monitor him and play him in the low 30's for minutes during the season. Now that Ray is on board, we have a quality 2 guard who can rest him. I think if Wade can get his J back to 2008 levels than he'll be OK as he ages.

I'm expecting similar numbers over the next few years: 22/5/5 on 50%.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Luke said:


> Who exactly has underrated Wade in this thread and why?


Anyone who actually believes the Heat will blow through the East next year with out Wade is underrating him. IMO the Celtics, and Bulls (with a healthy Rose) could all beat the Heat next year with out Wade. My Darkhorse out of the East is the 76ers. We also saw an emerging Pacers team who also shouldn't be over looked. D Wade had to muster up a 40/10 game on a bum knee in last years playoffs to help Miami win that series against Indiana.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Who* said the Heat would "blow through the East" without him


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Dre said:


> *Who* said the Heat would "blow through the East" without him


Luke and Diable made some asinine comments about it.



Diable said:


> *He could miss the entire regular season and it wouldn't really hurt the Heat that much*. They can't afford for him to repeat last season's playoff performance though. They need to make sure he's healthy when it matters. Hard to see his game aging well at this point. He doesn't do much that isn't predicated on his athleticism and that's not good at his age and mileage.





Luke said:


> *Honestly Wade could miss the entire eastern conference playoffs and the Heat would still make the finals.* LeBron is that good and his complimentary cast lends itself better to his game next season than it has since the decision.
> 
> The Heat will need to be fully healthy for the finals though. The Thunder will be a year older and the Lakers are lookin' real good.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Diable said 


> They need to make sure he's healthy when it matters.


Luke pretty much said the same thing. So what are you talking about


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Dre said:


> Diable said
> 
> 
> Luke pretty much said the same thing. So what are you talking about


I quoted and bolded the statements I'm referring to. But good to see you're backing them.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm not backing anybody I'm just saying don't exaggerate and eschew reading comprehension for an excuse to rant. If you have something to say just say it.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Dre said:


> I'm not backing anybody I'm just saying don't exaggerate and eschew reading comprehension for an excuse to rant. If you have something to say just say it.


First and foremost, you quote me, asked who was underrating Wade. So I do you the favor of dropping names, and even quote the statements that were made, bold them out so you can understand why I came to that conclusion. But instead of seeing it for what it is. You call me out, for ranting 

No offense but you're a fraud as a moderator, personally I don't care about your boys club. I come here to delve into basketball discussions. That's it. No more no less. 

And I stand behind my statements. Don't need you jumping my ass, just because you apparently disagree with me. Not sure why, the writing is on the wall for everyone to see.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

you right


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

R-Star said:


> Probably not past Bynum and the 6ers.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you do? Cheer for whoevers poster is on sale at any given time?


Nah, he's another Michael fanboy terrified that someone's going to eclipse his idol.


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## XxIrvingxX (Apr 23, 2012)

23AJ said:


> Anyone who actually believes the Heat will blow through the East next year with out Wade is underrating him. IMO the Celtics, and Bulls (with a healthy Rose) could all beat the Heat next year with out Wade. My Darkhorse out of the East is the 76ers. We also saw an emerging Pacers team who also shouldn't be over looked. D Wade had to muster up a 40/10 game on a bum knee in last years playoffs to help Miami win that series against Indiana.


I don't think his intent was to underrate him. If he said something like "Wade wouldn't be able to lead the Heat to the finals if Lebron was injured, but Lebron could do it without Wade", then that would be underrating him to the max.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

23AJ said:


> Anyone who actually believes the Heat will blow through the East next year with out Wade is underrating him. IMO the Celtics, and Bulls (with a healthy Rose) could all beat the Heat next year with out Wade. My Darkhorse out of the East is the 76ers. We also saw an emerging Pacers team who also shouldn't be over looked. D Wade had to muster up a 40/10 game on a bum knee in last years playoffs to help Miami win that series against Indiana.


Neither Diable nor I said that the Heat would "blow" through the east without Wade. But I think that they could make the finals again with or without him. The rest of the east can't match up with the Heat.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

He had a PER of 26.3 last year which was third in the league. For all his troubles that is still damn good. The Heat should have enough horses to limit his minutes so that he can put up very good numbers. Even if he has a dropoff in his PER of 5 which would be huge, that would still be easily in the range of an All-star player.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

And that's why I don't like PER.

For the record I still think that Wade is the second best shooting guard in the league (fourth best all time) and a top ten overall player. I just think his days of top five and stupid people claiming he was second to only LeBron are over.


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## doctordrizzay (May 10, 2011)

Luke said:


> And that's why I don't like PER.
> 
> For the record I still think that Wade is the second best shooting guard in the league (fourth best all time) and a top ten overall player. I just think his days of top five and stupid people claiming he was second to only LeBron are over.


PER pretty much is how overall good your are. It's the one stat that makes 100% sense.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Ah, so Kevin Love is close to Tim Duncan, Larry Bird, and Magic Johnson in your world. Cool.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

doctordrizzay said:


> PER pretty much is how overall good your are. It's the one stat that makes 100% sense.


So Nate Robinson is a top 10 pg and better thans Rondo by a wide margin?

Better luck next time....


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Luke said:


> And that's why I don't like PER.
> 
> For the record I still think that Wade is the second best shooting guard in the league (fourth best all time) and a top ten overall player. I just think his days of top five and stupid people claiming he was second to only LeBron are over.


Who is the best shooting guard in the league?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Kobe.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Adam said:


> Who is the best shooting guard in the league?


Ooooo, when he says Kobe, that's when you spring your trap, Adam. That's when you spring it!


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Cinco de Mayo said:


> Ooooo, when he says Kobe, that's when you spring your trap, Adam. That's when you spring it!


:laugh:


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Luke said:


> Kobe.


Ok.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Get out of the thread Adam.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Cinco de Mayo said:


> Ooooo, when he says Kobe, that's when you spring your trap, Adam. That's when you spring it!


:laugh:


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

The Wade vs. Kobe thing is hilarious. Both sides can never agree on what the important criteria are. For what its worth, whether you respect their opinions or not, at least among ESPN NBA writers Wade has been almost the unanimous choice for a few seasons now (Ric Bucher will hold on to Kobe until its obvious he won't be returning from retirement once he does retire).



hobojoe said:


> I don't know what _will_ happen, but for the Heat to repeat this year I think the transition from Wade to Bosh as the second option needs to happen. Wade will show his flashes of brilliance this year, but probably just as often he'll show that he's a shell of his former self and a detriment to the team when he tries to "take over".


I've been saying the same thing all summer about Bosh slowly taking over as the number 2. Bosh has played his best ball in Miami in that role. It suits his game very well.

Dwyane was a first half assassin for most of the year, but tapered in the 2nd halves. I personally believe I still saw some of his best ball last season, and haven't seen anything to indicate that with strong health we should still see spurts of it next season. His age and new role will certainly keep us from ever seeing sustained '09 Wade ever again, but he can still provide what the Heat need at his familiar level in spurts. The key for him as his quickness has declined has been skill honing: developing floater, refining post game, theoretically improving his jumpshot (declined the last two seasons), resurrecting his glass game (though I see this as losing confidence in his jumper), etc. He definitely recognizes the need to get his jump shot back and even better than its been before, as he's stated many times this offseason he plans to hire a shooting coach.

He's in a transition phase of his career where he's having to consciously accept he has to approach things differently now, on top of his ever-evolving new role next to LeBron. It's still a work in progress, hence seeing his game hit rock bottom in Indiana. The PER numbers show that even while not playing his best ball he still knows how to be extremely efficient and positively effect the game in unconventional categories. He'll never be flying up and down the court making play after play again, but if he can develop a jump shot he can really trust he'll still be an ideal co-star to LeBron for a few seasons. Contrary to what some of you appear to believe, Dwyane's game isn't entirely based off athleticism. He's always been extremely underrated in the post, despite flimsy fundamentals that he's just now sharpening.



Luke said:


> I hate it when people say that Wade was the best player in the world in 2009. LeBron was very clearly better than him in the regular season and Kobe responded after a mediocre (by his standards) regular season with an incredible playoff run. Overall they both absolutely had more impressive campaigns.


I begrudgingly agree on LeBron, but its hard to squeeze Kobe in there when you're using an extended sample size over Wade to give him the edge. 



Dee-Zy said:


> Too bad there are no measurements for Lebron, dude remains a mystery.


draftexpress.com

Too tired to look it up right now, but off the top off my head LeBron is 6-7 1/4 barefoot with a 7-1 wingspan

People will say he was 18 and may've grown since then since the school of thought is he's 6-9 in shoes now, but there it is.



23AJ said:


> Anyone who actually believes the Heat will blow through the East next year with out Wade is underrating him. IMO the Celtics, and Bulls (with a healthy Rose) could all beat the Heat next year with out Wade. My Darkhorse out of the East is the 76ers. We also saw an emerging Pacers team who also shouldn't be over looked. D Wade had to muster up a 40/10 game on a bum knee in last years playoffs to help Miami win that series against Indiana.


Are we OK with ignoring Bosh's absence?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

The media isn't pro Wade. There's a reason why Kobe hasn't been left off the All NBA first team since 2005.

And I don't know if the playoffs count as an "extended sample size". The regular season is a warm up for the real season, and Kobe was dominant that year.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

This thread was a thinly veiled attempt to end with, "Kobe > Wade." I assisted Luke in accomplishing his goal. Now you can go campaign for Kobe as MVP or Kobe as top 10 player all time or Kobe as Employee of the Month at the Anaheim McDonalds or whatever else it is you fantasize about.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

It wasn't thinly vieled with anything. You could have asked me who the best shooting guard in the league was as the first response to this thread and I would have replied with the same answer. The right answer. The same answer I've given every time somebody has asked me that question literally for years. There's nothing hidden here, and just because you're trying to save face now that the mean Cinco De Mayo bullied you doesn't change that.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Luke said:


> It wasn't thinly vieled with anything. You could have asked me who the best shooting guard in the league was as the first response to this thread and I would have replied with the same answer. The right answer. The same answer I've given every time somebody has asked me that question literally for years. There's nothing hidden here, and just because you're trying to save face now that the mean Cinco De Mayo bullied you doesn't change that.


I don't doubt that any of that is true. My point is that you need to constantly advertise your opinion. You made another thread that ended in you declaring Kobe is the best shooting guard in the world. This doesn't shock me. Stan.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Adam said:


> I don't doubt that any of that is true. My point is that you need to constantly advertise your opinion. You made another thread that ended in you declaring Kobe is the best shooting guard in the world. This doesn't shock me. Stan.


LOL, yet the only reason Kobe's name was mentioned is because it was an answer to a question you asked (when you clearly knew what he would answer). Seems you just wanted to enter another thread for the opportunity to insult someone. @sshole.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> LOL, yet the only reason Kobe's name was mentioned is because it was an answer to a question you asked (when you clearly knew what he would answer). Seems you just wanted to enter another thread for the opportunity to insult someone. @sshole.


No. He mentions Kobe himself, post #15 totally out of nowhere, not replying to anybody. I just find that hilarious. He starts a thread about Wade and instantly mentions Kobe.

Like he said, it's common knowledge he's a Kobe #1 believer. I already knew that. I just don't understand what benefits he gets posting an MVP thread in September about Kobe, spending about 500 posts last month campaigning for Kobe in his own greatest player threads, and then bringing up Kobe in a Dwyane Wade thread (I didn't bring him up Jamel). Does he work for Kobe? I dunno, however he wants to post on this forum is his right, but I don't get it. It's just kind of tired.

He reminds me of that poster DisneyPictures who posted only about (you guessed it) Disney movies in the movies section. Vanilla just change your name to LakersPublicRelations.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

It seems to bug you a lot more than it should. Kobe is probably still the most recognizable athelete in the world (maybe Ronaldo or Beckham?) Of course he's going to be a topic of conversations. One of the first things people talked about with the Nash and Dwight aquistions is how they will work with Kobe? Or what was Kobes role in getting them here? Hell even in their press conferences they were asked what Kobe said when they signed on.

His overal posting volume in this thread relative to his Kobe mentions seems disporptionate if that was his only intent. Seems like there are easier ways involving less typing if all he wanted to do is hype Kobe.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

Well, of course Kobe is going to come up at a Lakers acquisition press conference, and when discussing the moves. How could he not?



Luke said:


> The media isn't pro Wade. There's a reason why Kobe hasn't been left off the All NBA first team since 2005.
> 
> And I don't know if the playoffs count as an "extended sample size". The regular season is a warm up for the real season, and Kobe was dominant that year.


I guess my point is when people refer to him as being the best that season (again, I disagree), they're talking about the regular season, and only comparing it to other regular seasons that year. That seems fair to me.

The media isn't pro Wade, yet the Hollingers, Arnovitzs, Fords, etc. all seem to unanimously take Dwyane. Gives more credence to the position. Used to think I was a crazy, biased, fanboy (maybe I still am) for preferring Dwyane to Kobe, since, shit...'05. It surprised me to see the NBA heads coming around to the thought slowly after that.

Argue with the results if you will, but *here's the list* of ESPN writers/analysts/statisticians who ultimately *ranked Dwyane #3 and Kobe #7* in the NBA after the 2011 season. That's a relatively large disparity amongst the elite. This is just one out of many instances I've seen professional basketball analysts (whether highly credible or not so much) lean heavily toward Dwyane. (Just because I have a feeling the retort will be that Kobe had an "off" year, the consensus the two prior years was Dwyane had surpassed Kobe, as well.)

I do agree that Kobe has seemed to earn a lifetime achievement spot on the NBA first team. Bryant on the 1st team and Wade on the 2nd in 2011 was a little suspect:

Kobe: 25.3 / 5 / 5 on 45%

Wade: 25.5 / 6.5 / 5 on 50%

Kobe did it in 3 less minutes, but its hard for me (yes I'm biased) to not give Dwyane the edge for doing it more efficiently, on a better team, and while also putting up twice as many combined steals + blocks. The fact that he did it as a second option can be argued for either side. There's more to the story, though, and I don't care about all-NBA teams, so I'm not going to get worked up over it. Honestly, they probably could've gone either way on this one, and its no surprise they wanted to keep squeezing them in for Kobe as his career dwindled. Sorry about this tangent. 

Will Kobe out play the hell out of Wade from time to time on an individual basis, as we saw in the nose-smash-revenge game? Of course. Has Kobe had an more illustrious career. You betcha. Does this mean Bryant is the better player tomorrow? Surely not. Kobe is still the aesthetically and fundamentally superior player, but Dwyane has had an edge statistically for awhile now.


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

Must admit though, if I'm starting a new team to play one season, tabula rasa, and have to choose between the two as my first choice, this last season made it tough, and that comes back to the original discussion. I think we, as Heat fans, were more often frustrated by Dwyane's approach than his physical limitations last year. Perhaps he was struggling with accepting new physical limitations, but it seemed like he was out of sorts mentally more than anything at times.

Its a harder decision for me than it would've been after 2011, since Kobe had somewhat of a bounce-back season. Even though he's not as efficient, and less willing to get his teammates involved, I think Bryant has more of a firm grasp on his game, and is obviously more reliable as a shooter. Health is one of the biggest factors. Kobe is coming off the blood-spinning thing again, which rejuvenated him last time, but he's now 34. Dwyane is coming off invasive surgery that could either restrict him for most of the regular season, propel him to one of his best in recent memory, or somewhere in between. Many questions about both for next year.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Man at this point you couldn't go wrong with either. I don't see a huge gap in between them at all

They score different ways so it just depends on the personnel around them


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## Jace (Sep 26, 2005)

Which is why I have so much trouble with the "pick one while ignoring who you'll put around them" debate, especially for this upcoming season.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Adam said:


> I don't doubt that any of that is true. My point is that you need to constantly advertise your opinion. You made another thread that ended in you declaring Kobe is the best shooting guard in the world. This doesn't shock me. Stan.


You came into this thread with the sole intention of trolling and got laughed at. This entire conversation would not have existed had you not been trying to back pedal away from what you were originally trying to do.

And my original point still stands. I've been more than vocal about who I think is better of the two. There isn't an underlying meaning to this thread because I never attempted to hide anything. You said it yourself, I brought Kobe up in post 15. You're trying to spin this into something that it's not because of what Cinco said, not me.

And the stan comment is cute. If I was a "stan" in the literal sense why would I stop at "best shooting guard in the world" (which is a perfectly fair and defendable statement)? Why wouldn't I go all the way with it? I'm pretty sure Stan wasn't writing letters to Em talking about how he was the best rapper out of Detroit.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Luke said:


> You came into this thread with the sole intention of trolling and got laughed at. This entire conversation would not have existed had you not been trying to back pedal away from what you were originally trying to do.


My goal was to make you say Kobe > Wade. It's the motivation for your behavior (see: post 15). You make these threads and try to do this activism stuff because you feel compelled to defend any perceived lack of respect for Kobe/Lakers (see: post 15).



> And my original point still stands. I've been more than vocal about who I think is better of the two. There isn't an underlying meaning to this thread because I never attempted to hide anything. You said it yourself, I brought Kobe up in post 15. You're trying to spin this into something that it's not because of what Cinco said, not me.


Why do you keep mentioning what Rawse said? I honestly don't even care about it one bit. He assumed I was making some kind of trap to argue with you. My goal was to make you Stan for Kobe once again like you do in every post you make. All you do is pimp Lakers players.



> And the stan comment is cute. If I was a "stan" in the literal sense why would I stop at "best shooting guard in the world" (which is a perfectly fair and defendable statement)? Why wouldn't I go all the way with it? I'm pretty sure Stan wasn't writing letters to Em talking about how he was the best rapper out of Detroit.


You can go argue about Kobe for MVP in your other thread now.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Y'all two shouldn't be arguing..you're two of the best posters in this section

Adam I don't see how you see some kind of subliminal attempt to enter Kobe into the conversation at all. You kind of baited this discussion and now you're like "see! I knew it!"...that's weak.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Adam said:


> My goal was to make you say Kobe > Wade. It's the motivation for your behavior (see: post 15). You make these threads and try to do this activism stuff because you feel compelled to defend any perceived lack of respect for Kobe/Lakers (see: post 15).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So what you're saying is that *you* were the one that came into this thread hiding behind an ultimatum when I was clear with my opinions from the beggining? Why are we having this conversation again? Yesterday your point was that you wanted to expose me as a Laker stan with my subliminal meaning and today it is apparently to make me reiterate what I've said countless times? Keep back pedaling Adam!

In your first paragraph you said "My goal was to make you say Kobe > Wade" by asking a question in which you already knew the answer. Just because the rest of the board laughed at the way you went about it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. You're contradicting yourself.

And for the record I never argued Kobe for MVP. I said that I thought that Kevin Durant would win and that LeBron James deserved it. Look the thread up again and tell me I'm wrong. I even went as far as to say that there were three guys that I think had a better shot than Kobe if Rose was healthy. So again, you're either lying or illiterate.

The funniest part about this entire conversation is that at the end of every post you always come back to the fact that I'm a Laker fan and I talk about players that play for the Lakers. Why wouldn't I talk about my favorite basketball team and their players on a basketball-centric message board? Why should I waste time talking about the future of the Golden State Warriors when I could care less?

What's even funnier still is that you're portraying my habit to start Laker threads as a bad thing. *I'm the mod of the Lakers board*. It's literally my role on the staff to do exactly what I do. Excuse me for being one of the members of the staff that actually does what they're supposed to do.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Dre said:


> Y'all two shouldn't be arguing..you're two of the best posters in this section


Oh, c'mon. NBA General isn't _that_ bad.


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