# Chicago Grizzlies



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

No... I don't mean to make the comparison, I just have in mind a dark-horse trade idea for the summer. The Grizzlies are not playing very well in the post-season for the third consecutive year and ownership is unhappy with ticket sales and considering selling the team down the road.



> Regardless of how the series ends, Heisley expects changes next season.
> 
> Don't count him among them.
> 
> ...



Obviously it's speculative, but I think this is interesting speculation. If the Griz decide to go in a different direction Pau Gasol would be a guy who they could save a lot of money unloading and who would fit in very well for us. He's still young and pretty clearly what we'd hope anyone we'd draft would turn into.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> No... I don't mean to make the comparison, I just have in mind a dark-horse trade idea for the summer. The Grizzlies are not playing very well in the post-season for the third consecutive year and ownership is unhappy with ticket sales and considering selling the team down the road.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's really good and really soft. If the Bulls got him they'd need a brick sh!t house playing next to him (and next to Chandler for that matter).


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Pau Gasol is doing absolutely NOTHING in Memphis. He's not a bad guy but he's not a GREAT option either, plus he's pretty soft. He's a #2 option at best. He's a good pick-up, but at WHAT cost? Cuz the grizzles have a better record and arguably more talent than us and can't even win a playoff game with him at the front.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Pau Gasol is doing absolutely NOTHING in Memphis. He's not a bad guy but he's not a GREAT option either, plus he's pretty soft. He's a #2 option at best. He's a good pick-up, but at WHAT cost? Cuz the grizzles have a better record and arguably more talent than us and can't even win a playoff game with him at the front.


Terrible post. Absolutely terrible.

The "Gasol is Soft" ship set sail in 2004.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Rawse said:


> Terrible post. Absolutely terrible.
> 
> The "Gasol is Soft" ship set sail in 2004.



Yeah Pau has a beard now so doesn't he HAVE to be tough?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

There would be worse ways to spend $20M than Gasol and Cardinal. 

If they trade for guys like Hinrich and/or Noch, they will only save money for a year until those guys need to get paid.

I can't really see a deal get done. Maybe, just maybe, if they were head over heels in love with someone at the top of the draft.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

The problem with a trade for Gasol is that it would likely end up costing, for example, Aldridge, Gooden, Mohommend, and one of our players. That is a lot to give up for a very good but not great player.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> Yeah Pau has a beard now so doesn't he HAVE to be tough?


Or people don't watch Memphis games, so they can call the lanky European soft without that pesky proof thing?

I'm sure if Gasol got traded to Chicago for whatever MikeDC was suggesting there, he'd be Jesus incarnate on this board. To say nothing of how much more help he'd have on his team.

Keep living in your fantasy world. I wouldn't expect Bulls fans to know what a post player looks like anyway, much less know how to evaluate one.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Rawse said:


> Or people don't watch Memphis games, so they can call the lanky European soft without that pesky proof thing?
> 
> I'm sure if Gasol got traded to Chicago for whatever MikeDC was suggesting there, he'd be Jesus incarnate on this board. To say nothing of how much more help he'd have on his team.
> 
> Keep living in your fantasy world. I wouldn't expect Bulls fans to know what a post player looks like anyway, much less evaluate one.


Is Pau now a physical player?


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

It would most likely require a package of Gordon/Nocioni/2 picks + plus taking on one of their bad contracts (Stoudamire?). I would do it if we have enough cap space left to sign one of Przybilla/Nazr and can get Memphis' 1st rounder to draft a SG.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

25 year old All-star calibre big, where do i sign up? What would it take though?

Memphis seems to be in a pickle, Bobby Jackson and Lorenzon Wright are free agents, Eddie Jones is one next year, these aren't young guys.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

No way would I trade Nocioni for Gasol...or just about anybody else for that matter Nocioni is turning into a "right way" star IMO and needs to be kept.

As far as Gasol's toughness, I haven't seen much out of him in that regard but admittedly I don't watch much Memphis basketball. Still, it sounds like Rawse is mainly just being a homer.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

The ROY said:


> Pau Gasol is doing absolutely NOTHING in Memphis.


20 points, 7 boards, 4.5 assists, and 2 blocks so far in the playoffs.

20, 9, 4.6, 1.9 in the regular season.

I'll take that nothing, for the right price. Wish we had gotten him in the Curry/Chandler draft.


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## LegoHat (Jan 14, 2004)

Rawse said:


> Terrible post. Absolutely terrible.
> 
> The "Gasol is Soft" ship set sail in 2004.


Yeah, Pau being soft is one of the biggest misconceptions in the league. In the games I've seen this year he has done it all, he has a great post game and his passing is great for a big man. His spin move in the post is especially deadly, and he'll try and dunk it any chance he gets. If we could somehow get Pau I would be ecstatic, in fact I'd take him over Jermaine O'Neal any day of the week and twice on sundays. 

However, this discussion is probably moot. Memphis isn't letting him go anywhere, but I guess we are one of the teams with the most to offer in a trade.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

Gasol is a legit MVP candidate. He involves his teammates and has stepped up his game. 

I would do Nocioni for Gasol in a heartbeat.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

ace20004u said:


> No way would I trade Nocioni for Gasol...or just about anybody else for that matter Nocioni is turning into a "right way" star IMO and needs to be kept.


I like Noc but he's a tweener 3/4 and more effective as an undersized 4. And since we're not winning a championship with Deng and Noc being our frontcourt starters, one of them should be expendable in acquiring an All-Star big. I'd prefer to keep Deng because he's a more classic SF.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> I would do Nocioni for Gasol in a heartbeat.


It's a pity they have Battier and Miller filling that spot. I don't see us being able to trade for him, which is quite a shame.


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

Yep. From what I've seen of him, Pau definitely likes to dunk the ball, and he can dunk with either hand. He's also quite mobile for a seven-footer, though not quite the gazelle like Tyson is. He's not a great rebounder for his size, but he's a good shotblocker. He has an ugly jumpshot, though. It goes in occasionally, but it looks more awkward than Tyson's, and that's saying something. A player like him could be just what the Bulls ordered. To tell you the truth, I think Tyson has the potential to become a player like Pau if he can work on his offense.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Babble-On said:


> 20 points, 7 boards, 4.5 assists, and 2 blocks so far in the playoffs.
> 
> 20, 9, 4.6, 1.9 in the regular season.
> 
> I'll take that nothing, for the right price. Wish we had gotten him in the Curry/Chandler draft.


He's been horrible in these playoffs...

In the regular season, he's been lucky enough to have a decent supporting cast to actually MAKE him look like a star. He's just a really GOOD player, not a star though.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> No way would I trade Nocioni for Gasol...or just about anybody else for that matter Nocioni is turning into a "right way" star IMO and needs to be kept.
> 
> As far as Gasol's toughness, I haven't seen much out of him in that regard but admittedly I don't watch much Memphis basketball. Still, it sounds like Rawse is mainly just being a homer.


Couldn't be that I've seen all but two Grizzlies games this year and you've admittedly seen very few. Nah, I'm just being a homer.

6th in total dunks this season
52 percent of his offense comes on the inside (.627 eFG and assisted on less than half of his makes)
9th in total blocks, 13th in blocks per game, 16th in total rebounds, 17th in rebounds per game

Now if you're excuse me, I'm going to go be a homer somewhere else. Since you haven't seen many Grizzlies games at all, now's your chance. And while you're at it, take note of how many stupid shots, passes, turnovers and decisions his passive, frightened, unathletic, over-the-hill teammates make.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

spongyfungy said:


> Gasol is a legit MVP candidate.


LEGIT!? in what world!?

This is the same Gasol that had Memphis players come up to him before the season started and told him to "STEP UP" right?


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

It would be great to get a star, but we really don't need one. We need an effective post scorer, he fits that to a T.
Defense, he can hold is own, Rebounding: Who needs that when you have the "best rebounder per 48mins"...


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

The ROY said:


> He's been horrible in these playoffs...
> 
> In the regular season, he's been lucky enough to have a decent supporting cast to actually MAKE him look like a star. He's just a really GOOD player, not a star though.



Just stop. Please.


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> I like Noc but he's a tweener 3/4 and more effective as an undersized 4. And since we're not winning a championship with Deng and Noc being our frontcourt starters, one of them should be expendable in acquiring an All-Star big. I'd prefer to keep Deng because he's a more classic SF.


I doubt Pax would want to let go of Noc. He has been the essence of Bulls basketball and brings an intangible presence that transcends his stats, much like Ginobili does. Take away Noc, and suddenly the Bulls would not be hustling like they have been.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Rawse said:


> Keep living in your fantasy world. I wouldn't expect Bulls fans to know what a post player looks like anyway, much less know how to evaluate one.


ahhhhh stop crying ya baby LOL

your man Gasol is a GOOD big but don't act like he's a savior, he is NOT, he's a 2nd option at best.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Rawse said:


> Couldn't be that I've seen all but two Grizzlies games this year and you've admittedly seen very few. Nah, I'm just being a homer.
> 
> 6th in total dunks this season
> 52 percent of his offense comes on the inside (.627 eFG and assisted on less than half of his makes)
> ...



Hey, I stand corrected! I didn't know Gasol's game had grown to the point where he was no longer soft. I do like the beard though. Peace.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

TwinkieTowers said:


> I doubt Pax would want to let go of Noc. He has been the essence of Bulls basketball and brings an intengible presence that transcends his stats, much like Ginobili does. Take away Noc, and suddenly the Bulls would not be hustling like they have been.



Yep! thats exactly right! Besides with the way his stats have been lately if he keeps playing that way and I think he will, next season we could see a rather sharp inflation of his stats too.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

The ROY said:


> He's been horrible in these playoffs...


20, 7, 5, and 2 is horrible? 

He's doing basically what he did during the regular season, with his supporting cast not giving him much at all.

He ain't a superstar, franchise player, but he is an all-star caliber big man.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

Well, the soft thing is irrelevant because other than Thomas, the likely draft candidates are soft and don't have the experience or game Gasol does. I'd gladly trade for Gasol if the cost were right (which I doubt).

As for Thomas + Noci vs. Gasol - I'd take Gasol all day. Thomas is nothing more than a better version of Chandler. He'd improve the team and I'd be happy with him, but I don't see him changing our situtation greatly. Gasol, brings most of what we need from a frontcourt player.

Bottom line for me is that Gasol if only cost our pick + one of (Nocioni or Duhon). I'd be in for it. Or, how about Chandler + our 16th Pick and a future 2nd for Gasol.

We'd still need Nazr or Pryz, but damn, we'd be very solid in the 1-4 positions. With our 16th Pick I'd hope for O'Bryant, Brewer or Splitter.


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## LegoHat (Jan 14, 2004)

chifaninca said:


> Bottom line for me is that Gasol if only cost our pick + one of (Nocioni or Duhon). I'd be in for it. Or, how about Chandler + our 16th Pick and a future 2nd for Gasol.


I'd be on board for both suggestions, Gasol is that good. People don't watch enough Memphis games to appreciate what kind of player he has turned into, we would be crazy to turn down any of those deals in my opinion.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

He scores strong inside, gets to the line about 8 times a game, is a good passer and thus helps make the game easier for his teammates, seems like everything we need offensively. And he blocks 2 shots a game. It'd be nice if he were a better rebounder, and we'd probably still need to add a true banger, but he'd be a great addition to the team. 

I just don't know what I'd give up to get him. I kinda feel attached to all the core guys, except for Chandler.


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## SPIN DOCTOR (Oct 31, 2002)

Rawse, is correct that Pau is a fine player and not soft, certainly not by todays NBA standards.

The issue is trade cost... it would take a massive overpayment to trigger a Gasol trade by West, and that makes NO SENSE from the Bulls perspective yet. Use the draft picks and cap space to aquire additional assets AND then see if a consolidation trade makes good roster sense. Pau would be best used as a star supporting a superstar for championship dreams, he is not a player who can take a game over by himself.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Maybe we could engineer something like both draft picks, Harrington/Sweetney/Duhon for Gasol? That would seem to make more sense to me at least, not sure if Memphis would buy it though unless they really like some players in the draft a lot.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

SPIN DOCTOR said:


> Rawse, is correct that Pau is a fine player and not soft, certainly not by todays NBA standards.
> 
> * The issue is trade cost... it would take a massive overpayment to trigger a Gasol trade by West*, and that makes NO SENSE from the Bulls perspective yet. Use the draft picks and cap space to aquire additional assets AND then see if a consolidation trade makes good roster sense. Pau would be best used as a star supporting a superstar for championship dreams, he is not a player who can take a game over by himself.


See, I wouldn't overpay for him (or anyone else, i don't think). The whole point of starting the thread was to point out that the Grizzlies have older guys, no obvious way to get much better, they aren't making money and the owner is considering offers on the team.

That is the sort of situation where teams decide to rebuild and cash in their expensive chips for future prospects.

If, say Bargnani gives you what Gasol will give you in 2-3 years, and saves you $20M in the process, a team that's looking to rebuild might prefer Bargnani.

That is, it might something like our pick and maybe a player (but not one of our main players)to get him. I wouldn't do anything ridiculous and start trading away the whole team to get him. But if the Grizz really decide to rebuild, they're going to look to save money.

What would a Bulls offer look like?
Gasol for the pick, I think, would work. I'd probably do Gasol for both picks or Gasol for the high pick and Duhon.

I'm not sure if it could be swung financially, but I'd consider taking Eddie Jones off their hands. How?
We trade the Knicks pick, Harrington, Sweetney, Songaila, and Duhon - (and our cap space)
Griz trade Gasol and Jones.

Taking back Jones for the guys we give up is a benefit for the Grizzlies because it saves them several million dollars. For us, yeah, Jones is a short-term solution, but he'd be a tradable piece in case something big came available later in the year, and he'd provide both leadership and strong defense at the 2 spot.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

SPIN DOCTOR said:


> Rawse, is correct that Pau is a fine player and not soft, certainly not by todays NBA standards.
> 
> The issue is trade cost... it would take a massive overpayment to trigger a Gasol trade by West, and that makes NO SENSE from the Bulls perspective yet. Use the draft picks and cap space to aquire additional assets AND then see if a consolidation trade makes good roster sense. Pau would be best used as a star supporting a superstar for championship dreams, he is not a player who can take a game over by himself.


Pau hasn't shown that he take over by himself in a game against an upper-crust team like the Spurs or Pistons (or the Mavs) in a playoff atmosphere. Against lotto teams and low-level playoff teams, he's very capable of dominating. He's also had dominant performances in both Detroit regular season games, one or two of the San Antonio contests and a Dallas game. I'm still waiting for a serious breakout playoff game though.

I agree on about all those points though. I'm just not advocating a Chicago-for-Memphis trade - I've only argued that Gasol isn't soft. I don't have much interest in the rest, since it's not going to happen.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Rawse:

My impression of Pau is that he is not a very strong or good man-to-man defensive player (why I called him soft). Is that incorrect?


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

Mikedc said:


> What would a Bulls offer look like?
> Gasol for the pick, I think, would work. I'd probably do Gasol for both picks or Gasol for the high pick and Duhon.
> 
> I'm not sure if it could be swung financially, but I'd consider taking Eddie Jones off their hands. How?
> ...


That is an incredible rip-off! I'm not sure how West would be able to justify trading Gasol, a 25 year-old MVP candidate, for a couple of draft picks and salary filler. If you were a Memphis fan, wouldn't you want West fired on the spot?


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> Rawse:
> 
> My impression of Pau is that he is not a very strong or good man-to-man defensive player (why I called him soft). Is that incorrect?


He put on around 15 pounds of muscle this offseason. He's not weak, if that's what you mean by soft. He's very much stronger than he has been in past seasons, not to say anything for his increased endurance.

His man-to-man is fine. I'd say it's average when placing him against other star-superstar players, but his length allows him to get a lot of his blocks. He's not Duncan or Garnett, but who really is? Above average help defender.

Most of those impressions are based off of the Pau Gasol of several seasons ago.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> If you were a Memphis fan, wouldn't you want West fired on the spot?


I already kinda want West fired. If he traded Gasol for a pick, I'd burn his house down.

To say nothing about what I'd do if he gave away Pau PLUS a max expiring for salary filler junk and a pick.

If Heisley wants to put butts in seats, he needs to tell his President of Basketball Operations to trade _for_ superstar-level players, not trade them away for nothing. If we went into next season with LaMarcus Aldridge as our best player instead of Pau Gasol, the attendance would get down to a four-digit average.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> That is an incredible rip-off! I'm not sure how West would be able to justify trading Gasol, a 25 year-old MVP candidate, for a couple of draft picks and salary filler. If you were a Memphis fan, wouldn't you want West fired on the spot?



I don't think it is that much of a rip off since your not only talking about "a couple of draft picks" one of those picks is a top 5 pick!


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

Rawse said:


> I already kinda want West fired. If he traded Gasol for a pick, I'd burn his house down.
> 
> To say nothing about what I'd do if he gave away Pau PLUS a max expiring for salary filler junk and a pick.
> 
> If Heisley wants to put butts in seats, he needs to tell his President of Basketball Operations to trade _for_ superstar-level players, not trade them away for nothing. If we went into next season with LaMarcus Aldridge as our best player instead of Pau Gasol, the attendance would get down to a four-digit average.


What would you say about my earlier proposed trade: Gordon/Nocioni/2 picks -for- Gasol/Stoudamire-or-Cardinal/Memphis 1st pick?


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> What would you say about my earlier proposed trade: Gordon/Nocioni/2 picks -for- Gasol/Stoudamire-or-Cardinal/Memphis 1st pick?


Nah.

Again, we need to build on what we have. We're dealing a 25-year-old All-Star who's just now showing what he can really do for a guy who probably wouldn't make the Western All-Star team. Nocioni would be nice, but we have enough players of his ilk. 

Picks don't do anything for me at all in this draft.

Gasol and the Grizzlies are at the point where you don't trade a guy like that unless you're getting someone better than him now or will no doubt be better in the future. (And there aren't many trade scenarios for that type of situation.) Successfully or unsuccessfully, I'd rather _try_ to ship out Eddie Jones Penny-Hardaway-style next season rather than blow it all up as soon as the playoffs are over and put our hopes in the next Joe Smiths or whatever role players these draftees are destined to develop into.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

If we could do something like Knicks Pick and Our pick for Gasol, I'd be happy.

PG-Kirk Hinrich/Chris Duhon
SG-Ben Gordon/Eric Piatowski
SF-Andres Nocioni/Luol Deng
PF-Pau Gasol/Micahel Sweetney
C- TysonChandler/Luke Schenscher

I know its a long shot to land Gasol in such a trade (or is it?) but if we can keep all of Deng/Nocioni/Hinrich/Gordon as well as one of Tyson or the Knicks pick, I'd be happy if we could land Gasol with that, we'd be like a 55 win team if we just traded our picks for Gasol and called it a summer, he's good.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Gasol is the man, but he plays with a team full of role players. Even if he was a superstar, what superstar can win with a team full of role players (and no other big time scoring option).


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

HKF said:


> Gasol is the man, but he plays with a team full of role players. Even if he was a superstar, what superstar can win with a team full of role players (and no other big time scoring option).


Dirk? He has a more talented supporting cast to be sure, but no other star on that team and no one else averaging above 20ppg.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

Gasol himself is an outstanding player. The guy's 25, is coming off his best year, is probably top 5 at his position, and more than likely head and shoulders better than anyone we'd sign in FA or in the draft for the next 3 years.

However, I think a deal to acquire him would be difficult. Memphis is in a position where they can't really afford to get rid of him unless it's something drastic, and we're in a position where it doesn't really make sense to consolidate until after this offseason. 

Maybe if ownership changed hands and wanted to clean house, then there'd be a glimmer of hope, but otherwise, I think it'd be a long shot. 

And FWIW, I'd trade for Gasol before I'd trade for KG, Jermaine, or Bosh (maybe).


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

S&T Pike for Gasol


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

7thwatch said:


> Dirk? He has a more talented supporting cast to be sure, but no other star on that team and no one else averaging above 20ppg.


This is who Dirk has been playing with all year:

Josh Howard - Can get 15 points or more
Jerry Stackouse - Ditto (at the least)
Jason Terry - Ditto
Marquis Daniels - Ditto
Van Horn - Ditto (when healthy)

Then defensive players:

Devin Harris
Adrian Griffin
DeSagana Diop
Erick Dampier

Surrounding a Dirk who is putting up 26.6 ppg this season. The Mavs talent around Dirk is better than people believe, they just spread it all around. The Grizz offensively are one of the worst teams in the NBA.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

rosenthall said:


> Gasol himself is an outstanding player. The guy's 25, is coming off his best year, is probably top 5 at his position, and more than likely head and shoulders better than anyone we'd sign in FA or in the draft for the next 3 years.
> 
> However, I think a deal to acquire him would be difficult. Memphis is in a position where they can't really afford to get rid of him unless it's something drastic, and we're in a position where it doesn't really make sense to consolidate until after this offseason.
> 
> ...


This is my take as well. He's a nearly ideal target as far as what kind of player we'd like to add, but Memphis isn't going to give him away unless Mikedc's doom scenario comes to pass and West is given marching orders to hit the reset button and shed salary obligations. I don't think that's going to happen this offseason, but it could happen next year midseason if Memphis doesn't get off to a good start, possibly. Even then, West would probably be able to get a decent package of young players and/or picks for Pau from someone.

But adding Pau along with, hopefully, a lane clogging kind of center would give us a very, very good frontcourt. Pau is definitely better than anyone in FA this summer and probably better than anyone in this draft, though that's just a guess by definition.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Gasol is one of the best centers in the league. If Memphis is having a fire sale we should put in a bid.


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

Rawse said:


> Keep living in your fantasy world. I wouldn't expect Bulls fans to know what a post player looks like anyway, much less know how to evaluate one.



Oh that's right, take it out on all of us......

:curse:


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> That is an incredible rip-off! I'm not sure how West would be able to justify trading Gasol, a 25 year-old MVP candidate, for a couple of draft picks and salary filler. If you were a Memphis fan, wouldn't you want West fired on the spot?


Check out Rosenthall and VF's responses. The idea I was proceeding from was that the Griz decide to shed salary rebuild. Like they mentioned, it's probably a longshot that it happens, but it's at least plausible given their underperformance, lack of future assets, and finances.

What's more, that's exactly the sort of thing Pax has said repeatedly he's looking for to get a star. A team that decides to rebuild and thus wants 1) salary relief and 2) draft picks. Compared to the average team, the Grizz look like they might be a bit more likely than most other teams to 1) decide they want to rebuild and 2) have what we're looking for.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Blah blah blah...be mad all you want

the fact of the matter is....Pau Gasol is NO BETTER than Antawn Jamison...

They'll both give you about 20 and 10 a game...they're great complimentary players but they aren't leaders...just GOOD players..


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Blah blah blah...be mad all you want
> 
> the fact of the matter is....Pau Gasol is NO BETTER than Antawn Jamison...
> 
> They'll both give you about 20 and 10 a game...they're great complimentary players but they aren't leaders...just GOOD players..



That comparison is way off base. Gasol is a far more efficient scorer, a vastly superior shot blocker and a much better passer.


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> That comparison is way off base. Gasol is a far more efficient scorer, a vastly superior shot blocker and a much better passer.



but their impact is what he's getting at.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

smARTmouf said:


> but their impact is what he's getting at.


Jamison plays with a top 15 player (Arenas) as well as a top 50 player (Butler). Gasol plays with a bunch of role players. Gasol had a better record in a better conference.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

smARTmouf said:


> but their impact is what he's getting at.


THANK YOU


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

Ever seen the Grizzlies play without Gasol? Pretty muchc rap. Mike Miller is left as the second playmaker, as Jackson, Atkins, Battier, Jones, Cardinal, the other Jones, Wright, Big Jakes.....none of these guys can create for other, and only Jones can really make plays for himself other than Miller and Gasol. Miller does a bit of it but is not great. Without Pau, it's all jumpshots, little penetration,a nd very little creativity. With him, it's a 5 seed.

Impact wise, he craps on Jamison.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

The ROY said:


> THANK YOU


Stick Jamison on the Grizzlies instead of Gasol and see how close they come to 25 wins.

Why is someone who has no knowledge of basketball posting on a basketball message board?


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

ShamBulls said:


> Ever seen the Grizzlies play without Gasol? Pretty muchc rap. Mike Miller is left as the second playmaker, as Jackson, Atkins, Battier, Jones, Cardinal, the other Jones, Wright, Big Jakes.....none of these guys can create for other, and only Jones can really make plays for himself other than Miller and Gasol. Miller does a bit of it but is not great. Without Pau, it's all jumpshots, little penetration,a nd very little creativity. With him, it's a 5 seed.
> 
> Impact wise, he craps on Jamison.



Eh.

Don't get me wrong here...I like Pau.

But really...He's simply not a game changer.

He is a GREAT complimentary piece...Just like Jamison....You can't look at who a player plays with to gauge someones impact until you understand the impact in question.

Sure he impacts that individual team and the dynamics of how they play because of how it was assembled...But beyond that...Whose checking for him?...Show me a coaching staff that's biting their nails because Pau is coming to town.

Pau can be neutralized through gameplan...

only refs can neutralize impact players.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

smARTmouf said:


> Sure he impacts that individual team and the dynamics of how they play because of how it was assembled...But beyond that...Whose checking for him?...Show me a coaching staff that's biting their nails because Pau is coming to town.


[/QUOTE]

:laugh: 

I should really dig up some quotes from NBA coaches this season.


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

:laugh: 

I should really dig up some quotes from NBA coaches this season.[/QUOTE]


hey...Whose to say that's not media posturing?

slurp the opponent so he has no reason to get motivated...come on man..that's basic.


no one is saying Pau sucks

personally....i just don't think he's a player to build around.

he's a player to help in that building process definatly...he just wouldn't be my center piece.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

smARTmouf said:


> :laugh:
> 
> I should really dig up some quotes from NBA coaches this season.



hey...Whose to say that's not media posturing?

slurp the opponent so he has no reason to get motivated...come on man..that's basic.


no one is saying Pau sucks

personally....i just don't think he's a player to build around.

he's a player to help in that building process definatly...he just wouldn't be my center piece.[/QUOTE]

No one is saying he's a superstar. He's better than Jamison though.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

smARTmouf said:


> hey...Whose to say that's not media posturing?


Predictable response. 

You suggested that coaches don't gameplan for Gasol. That shows that not only do you not have any idea about the subject we're talking about, but you don't know how to admit it either.


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> hey...Whose to say that's not media posturing?
> 
> slurp the opponent so he has no reason to get motivated...come on man..that's basic.
> 
> ...


No one is saying he's a superstar. He's better than Jamison though.[/QUOTE]


skill wise?...perhaps

that's debatable though....Jamison has moves on moves so i don't think there is a clear cut winner here.....it's definatly hard to compare players that play different positions


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

Rawse said:


> Predictable response.
> 
> You suggested that coaches don't gameplan for Gasol. That shows that not only do you not have any idea about the subject we're talking about, but you don't know how to admit it either.



lol.

i guess miss cleo


why debate with me then....keep it moving...lol


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> That comparison is way off base. Gasol is a far more efficient scorer, a vastly superior shot blocker and a much better passer.


I expect that Noah might not be quite up to Pau's capability on offense in five years, but I definately see him better defensively and at rebounding. I so wish he would have declared after winning his championship.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

smARTmouf said:


> lol.
> 
> i guess miss cleo


Miss Cleo? :whofarted

How many Grizzlies games have you seen this year? My guess is whatever they've shown on ESPN or TNT (2-3 regular season games).

Knowing the difference in impact and efficiency between a player like Pau Gasol and a player like Antawn Jamison requires just a base-level understanding of the game. You don't even really need to have ever played the game on a level higher than your local middle school to grasp that.

Gasol's a ridiculously lengthy 7-footer with an array of post moves and passing and court vision that rivals the best players at his position. He can drive, post up, face up, finish with either hand and has range out to 18 feet, if needed. His length allows him to play good help defense to the tune of two blocks a game. As the go-to-guy, he's led a team whose second-best player is Mike Miller to 45+ wins for three straight years.

Jamison's a tweener forward who primarily faces up and shoots a long jumpshot. He's assisted on a vast majority of his shots and plays no semblence of defense. He's the second option on a team led by Gilbert Arenas. The team has finished with a worse record than Memphis for as long as Jamison's been there. In a decidedly worse conference.

Thanks for playing.


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

smARTmouf said:


> Eh.
> 
> Don't get me wrong here...I like Pau.
> 
> ...



Pau of previous years, yes. But this current Pau has turned into a man who CAN carry a team, and does. He domiantes the ball making plays for himself and others, he takes and makes the big shots, he gives forth the effort and does a bit of shouting, he rebounds well and doesn't play defense half as bad as people reckon (though, for whatever reason, his defensive footwork ain't half as good as his offensive) and he is a genuine All Star post player and number 1 option.

People need to understand this guy averaged 20 points, 9 rebounds and 5 assists this season. The five assists is the crux of this. The offense of a 49 win team goes pretty much through him, and him only. This is key.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

I can't believe people are so willing to diss such an excellent player as Pau.

But he is no Kirk Hinrich.


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

Rawse said:


> Miss Cleo? :whofarted
> 
> How many Grizzlies games have you seen this year? My guess is whatever they've shown on ESPN or TNT (2-3 regular season games).
> 
> ...



Pau EFF. 23.62

Jamison EFF. 20.22


I mean...Those numbers aren't ENTIRELY one-sided.

but naturally...You're a Grizzles fan and Pau is their best player...So of course you'd get emotional.

But seriously...who knows really what the records would be if they switched teams...No one expected the suns to be the 2nd seed...No one expected the Lakers to make the playoffs...That's why they play the game....So to say with such certainty that Memphis wouldn't get to 25 wins with Jamison is just some Marty Mcfly stuff.



I suppose I would get a little heated if you said some nonsense about Nocioni or Kirk or something like that


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Gasol's no superstar nor a leader..it's not even worth arguing over...it's the damn TRUTH..


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Gasol's no superstar nor a leader..it's not even worth arguing over...it's the damn TRUTH..


Your definition of superstar might be different to what others view it as, as for me I really couldn't care if Gasol is or isn't. We seem to coping fine without one. However, if you could acquire him cheaply, we would be silly not to, he'd suit this team quite well.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Memphis will not giv give Gasol away. He is a drawing asset in Memphis! They need to add players around him. Slowly they are building. 

Want to put more people in the seats? Trade for Carney in the draft. 

As for the idea that Gasol would fit with the bulls, hell yeah he would, big time, but at what cost? What would it cost us? 

IMO, Gasol is a little better than Jamison.


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## Banjoriddim (Aug 14, 2004)

Damn, I though that this guy (ROY) is good poster but then he brings up such bullsh*t... I mean I have no words... even if it would be joke it would be bad one...

About Gasol you will never get him. Period. About him as player... well I have allways felt that he is underachiver but maybe he has turned coners (this season)... if he will start to play like hes talent would allow then I must say this mvp talk wouldn't sound that off (though he would need better position a la Dirk's position in Mavs and he should improve quite a bit...). And I am not dissing him it's just that I have seen how he plays for Spain and I feel that hes NBA game is just not there jet...


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

Rawse said:


> Or people don't watch Memphis games, so they can call the lanky European soft without that pesky proof thing?
> 
> I'm sure if Gasol got traded to Chicago for whatever MikeDC was suggesting there, he'd be Jesus incarnate on this board. To say nothing of how much more help he'd have on his team.
> 
> Keep living in your fantasy world. I wouldn't expect Bulls fans to know what a post player looks like anyway, much less know how to evaluate one.


And you don't know what a playoff win looks like.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

Just agree to disagree, no need to belittle each other and their respective teams.


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Gasol's no superstar nor a leader..it's not even worth arguing over...it's the damn TRUTH..



Didn't you once say that you didn't want to trade for Jason Richardson because he was nothing more than an athlete putting up good stats on a bad team, and then said you'd rather have Gerald Wallace?

My point, of course, is that you don't seem too informed on the improvements certain players made this past season.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

Perhaps one of the keys to ignite the fanbase is to try and target the College fans 

Chicago has draft picks at say ( worst ) #5 and #16 that could net Rodney Carney and Shawne Williams out of Memphis 

Problem is is that you then have to play them and they have to be good enough to play right away 

Maybe Williams falls in and apprentices behind Eddie Jones at the 2 but Carney , who likely can play straight away has Battier and Miller in front of him 

Battier and Miller would both be fits for this team but if we were to trade for them using our draft picks - we replicate the issues the Grizz have in that our swing positions tighten up 

And then , there is the issue of whether we are just better taking Brandon Roy at #5 and a fundamentally solid all rounder big at #16 like Paul Davis - which addresses our needs

We can always address our scoring frontliner big and defensive man to man big in free agency via Drew Gooden and Joel Pryzibilla 

Whilst the Grizzilies have players I like I can't see any deal being done to acquire them with what we have to play with that would be attractive to them and that would make us significantly better (save for Paul Gasol if we had #1 to go with #16 and if Jerry West wanted that deal which I don't see any reason for him to take)


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

ShamBulls said:


> Didn't you once say that you didn't want to trade for Jason Richardson because he was nothing more than an athlete putting up good stats on a bad team, and then said you'd rather have Gerald Wallace?
> 
> My point, of course, is that you don't seem too informed on the improvements certain players made this past season.


LMAO

your boy Gasol is CHOKING right now in Memphis against Dallas...

11 games straight and NO play-off wins

Gasol = NOT a leader, #2 option at best

Richardson = DEFININTELY not a leader, #3 option at BEST

STOP CRYING


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Banjoriddim said:


> Damn, I though that this guy (ROY) is good poster but then he brings up such bullsh*t... I mean I have no words... even if it would be joke it would be bad one...
> 
> About Gasol you will never get him. Period. About him as player... well I have allways felt that he is underachiver but maybe he has turned coners (this season)... if he will start to play like hes talent would allow then I must say this mvp talk wouldn't sound that off (though he would need better position a la Dirk's position in Mavs and he should improve quite a bit...). And I am not dissing him it's just that I have seen how he plays for Spain and I feel that hes NBA game is just not there jet...


um..don't really WANT gasol..keep that CHOKER lol...he can't even wheel your team to 1 single playoff victory LOL!


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

The ROY said:


> LMAO
> 
> your boy Gasol is CHOKING right now in Memphis against Dallas...
> 
> ...




All charm, all the time. :banana: 

Still, at least Gerald Wallace's team made a deep playoff run so you could save some face. 

Oh.....:eek8:


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

ShamBulls said:


> All charm, all the time. :banana:
> 
> Still, at least Gerald Wallace's team made a deep playoff run so you could save some face.
> 
> Oh.....:eek8:


Whatever, u got me with that one LOL although I'd prefer Wallace...not a fan of Richardson


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

SMH, and you memphis fans REALLY believe Pau is THAT valuable huh? LOL. Dude couldn't even hit his freethrow's to keep it close at the end of the 4th AND in overtime. Like I said before, a good player who's a #2 option at BEST but isn't a leader.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

I think Pau Gasol is a great player who is better, and will continue to be better, than anyone on our team.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

rwj333 said:


> I think Pau Gasol is a great player who is better, and will continue to be better, than anyone on our team.


sure...lol he's not GREAT..not even close

he's a choker, who continues to CHOKE more when they get closer to a win.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

For those against acquiring Gasol, ask yourself how many big men are better than him right now, and will be for the next 5 years and running? 

Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Elton Brand
Dirk Nowitzki
Yao Ming

The list stops there for me. 

Pau Gasol is five times better than any big man we'll get in the draft or free agency. Where do I sign up?


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> For those against acquiring Gasol, ask yourself how many big men are better than him right now, and will be for the next 5 years and running?
> 
> Tim Duncan
> Kevin Garnett
> ...


I think you left out Bosh.


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## Thorgal (Feb 1, 2003)

TripleDouble said:


> I think you left out Bosh.


*Amare* & *D-How* as well IMO.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Amare & D-How as well IMO.


I wouldn't be so sure on Amare, who knows what he'll look like after his 2nd surgery.


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## Thorgal (Feb 1, 2003)

step said:


> I wouldn't be so sure on Amare, who knows what he'll look like after his 2nd surgery.


You're right.

But I'd still take 80% _Amare_ over _Gasol_. 

Call me crazy but I also would put _Carlos Boozer_ ahead of Pau (assuming Boo stays healthy). I just really don't like Gasol's inconsistency during the games.


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## LegoHat (Jan 14, 2004)

step said:


> I wouldn't be so sure on Amare, who knows what he'll look like after his 2nd surgery.


He thinks he's going to be even more explosive, and he aims to be MVP.



> Two knee operations later, Amaré Stoudemire's confidence remains intact.
> 
> Three months away from plans to join USA Basketball's tryout camp, Stoudemire watches Suns playoff games with an eye on trends he notes for the staff and a thought of what he would be doing in this series with the Lakers.
> 
> ...


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

Yeah he thinks so, but I bet Penny, Webber and co all thought that aswell. What scares me is that it's his 2nd surgery in such a short time, and if i'm not mistaken it's on both legs. He does have youth on his side, but this isn't something to sneeze at. I do wish him the best though.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> He envisions his game evolving into a small forward's role at about 250 pounds.


What the...


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> For those against acquiring Gasol, ask yourself how many big men are better than him right now, and will be for the next 5 years and running?
> 
> Tim Duncan
> Kevin Garnett
> ...


At this point, for a young team like the Bulls, I'd probably take Dwight Howard over any of those guys. 

Anyway, I don't understand the criticism of Gasol. If we could retain the core and simply trade picks and filler, as is being suggested, its an absolute no-brainer that we do it. We contend for the Eastern Conference Championship as a top 3 team in the conference next season and for the next 8 years. 

Our surrounding cast is far, far superior to what Gasol has in Memphis. And its far, far younger.

He ain't perfect, but he's a damn sight better than our other big man options appear to be.


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## LegoHat (Jan 14, 2004)

step said:


> What the...


I had the same reaction when reading that, sounds absolutely ludicrous.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

Like Ron Cey and Patchwork have noted, I think a lot of the criticism being thrown on Gasol during this thread is pretty short sighted. After reading this thread, I'm not sure I'd want Tim Duncan over the next 5 years than Pau Gasol. He's 25, and does pretty much everything we'd need in a big man. 

I'm all for acquiring him since he's a great fit in just about every way, it's just that I don't think it's very likely, given our two teams and their circumstances. The stars would pretty much have to align, and even then, I can't imagine a scenario that would come up where, if Gasol became available, Jerry West wouldn't have a multitude of offers to choose from, which means to actually have the best one, you'd probably have to overpay, which doesn't make sense.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

WHOA, i'm not AGAINST aquiring Gasol...

I've just simply stated the obvious...

If we didn't have to give up any important pieces of our core, I wouldn't mind having him...

I just don't see HIM as being the answer...


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

I doubt Memphis trades the guy they are building around without getting a member of our core in the process. We seem to be building off the time-honored tradition of team chemistry. Keep the same guys together, keep adding pieces, etc.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

kind of astonishing fact on nba pregame that i guess i hadn't realized. *memphis has not won a single game in post season play in franchise history.* is this correct? wow! 

maybe pau would want out.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

Yes that is true, but they haven't had any spectacular teams. This years team was on a role early, till injuries slowed them down.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

LegoHat said:


> He thinks he's going to be even more explosive, and he aims to be MVP.


 Amare is not the smartest guy out there but he's pretty cocky. When you add those two together, anything is possible.


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## dogra (Nov 12, 2003)

LegoHat said:


> Yeah, Pau being soft is one of the biggest misconceptions in the league. In the games I've seen this year he has done it all, he has a great post game and his passing is great for a big man. His spin move in the post is especially deadly, and he'll try and dunk it any chance he gets. If we could somehow get Pau I would be ecstatic, in fact I'd take him over Jermaine O'Neal any day of the week and twice on sundays.


I am right there with you, LegoHat. This guy's play made me drool the four or five times I saw him play this season. And a previous post shows that his playoff numbers are almost identical to his excellent regular season numbers.

Yeah, he's doing "nothing" for the Grizz.

That being said, as others have aptly noted, I see no way in hell that we could get him without being forced to give up too much -- not too much relative to Gasol's worth, but having to gut the team to get him.

Also, wouldn't Memphis be smarter to try to reload around him? There are a lot of junky spare parts on that team right now.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> Amare is not the smartest guy out there but he's pretty cocky. When you add those two together, anything is possible.


Yeah right Amare knows exactly what he is talking about, he is going to be a 250 small forward like lebron james ok?


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

I'd welcome Pau on the team, but he's obviously not a guy you build around. Superstars don't let their teams go 0-12 in the playoffs, no ifs ands or buts about it.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

Interestingly enough, Gasol has plantar fasciitis (however spelt) and is trying to play through it. Still doesn't dismiss his poor play in the playoffs completely.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

I wonder if being winless in the playoffs and the embarassing nature of the Grizz's defeat will make the Grizz more inclined for a firesale. 

BS aside, I'd say that game 3 was the only one where you can really say he played poorly.

He's not a franchise player, but he is an all-star. Add him to our collection of potential all-stars in Hinrich, Deng, Nocioni, and Gordon, and the Bulls could be decently apporaching an approximation of the Pistons' approach of depth, balance, and chemistry, especially if Chandler can stop bein' off his square for large portions of seasons. Add in an actual NBA caliber big guard, maybe Salmons, and a banger, maybe Pryz(I actually would've preferred Reggie Evans before he went and took the cheapest of cheap shots on Kaman).

edit: Actually, Dahntay Jones as a throw-in might be nice as well.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Like I said..

Pau Gasol is doing NOTHING for the Grizzlies....


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Like I said..
> 
> Pau Gasol is doing NOTHING for the Grizzlies....


Give it up, dude. Dallas is a fantastic team, and Gasol has very little help on his end. Lorenzen Wright and Chucky Atkins are playing huge minutes on Memphis and that's all you really need to know. Gasol is still better than anyone on our team, and *much* better than any big we could get in free agency or the draft


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

Man...The way Noc is playing...Saying Gasol is better than anyone on our team is debatable...

But Whatever.

Memphis got some players I wouldn't mind stealing away.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

The ROY said:


> SMH, and you memphis fans REALLY believe Pau is THAT valuable huh? LOL. Dude couldn't even hit his freethrow's to keep it close at the end of the 4th AND in overtime. Like I said before, a good player who's a #2 option at BEST but isn't a leader.


 It's post of this quality that make me wish the admins would turn the negative rep feature back on. 

Mr. The ROY, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

such sweet thunder said:


> It's post of this quality that make me wish the admins would turn the negative rep feature back on.
> 
> Mr. The ROY, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.


LMAO do u really seriously THINK I care that u wanna give me "negative rep"? HOW OLD ARE U? grow up man. 

LOL @ this guy getting THAT emotional over a player that isn't even ON HIS TEAM

pull your PANTIES UP and stop acting like a female


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## LegoHat (Jan 14, 2004)

Keep it civil guys, no need to insult each other.

And I'd still love to get Gasol, maybe the fact that Dallas have thumped them will make him consider a change of scenery.


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

The ROY said:


> LMAO do u really seriously THINK I care that u wanna give me "negative rep"? HOW OLD ARE U? grow up man.
> 
> LOL @ this guy getting THAT emotional over a player that isn't even ON HIS TEAM
> 
> pull your PANTIES UP and stop acting like a female



Reminds me of home!


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

The ROY said:


> LMAO do u really seriously THINK I care that u wanna give me "negative rep"? HOW OLD ARE U? grow up man.
> 
> LOL @ this guy getting THAT emotional over a player that isn't even ON HIS TEAM
> 
> pull your PANTIES UP and stop acting like a female


 Fair enough.

I'm not getting "emotional" because you're not a fan of Gasol. I'm bothered by the way you attack Grizzlies fans without any substantive support. I enjoy having visitors from other boards comment on our trade proposals -- especially posters who are familiar with their home teams -- because it grounds our expectations on what is reasonable trade value. I'm afraid your attitude will run them away. 

Likewise, when did being called a female become an insult? There are many women posters here who I like to read; not sure if you're focussed in the right direction.

So, if you don't mind, be a little nicer in the way you approach fans of other teams and women. These boards are for everyone -- I don't mind having to scroll past your posts, but I would hate it if you drove away some of the writers I enjoy.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

sure


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## dogra (Nov 12, 2003)

Babble-On said:


> He's not a franchise player, but he is an all-star. Add him to our collection of potential all-stars in Hinrich, Deng, Nocioni, and Gordon, and the Bulls could be decently apporaching an approximation of the Pistons' approach of depth, balance, and chemistry....


Well put. That's the way I feel about it. :clap: 

But the previous post mentioning that he might be suffering from plantar fascitis (sp?) gives me pause. That is something that is a giant killer. I am really beginning to wonder if Duncan will ever be the same.

Oh well, it's all fantasy conjecture anyway.


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