# Noah vs. Hawes Round 2 (post Bulls workout stories)



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Noah seemed more concerned about talking about Yi Jianlian:


> "If you're ducking, teams see that," Noah said. "You don't want to be somebody who is ducking players. I think that's kind of corny, kind of lame. Eventually in the game of basketball, there's no lying when you step between those lines. Bring your game and not your name. I'm from New York. That's how we do it."
> 
> Noah's comment came in response to a general question, not one about Yi. But such brashness is part of the package with the 22-year-old two-time NCAA titlist, who also brings energy and an inconsistent jumper.
> 
> ...


Noah also makes fans by claiming himself a Knicks fan and hating on MJ:


> Joakim Noah grew up a Knicks fan in New York, which is why these words rolled off his tongue fairly easily on Friday.
> 
> "Damn," Noah said, "I hated Michael Jordan."
> 
> "As a kid, the Bulls made me cry a few times," he said following his draft workout at the Berto Center. "But you have to give credit where credit is due. I would love to come and play here. It's a team that has a lot of tradition in a city that expects winning, and winning is what's important to me."


Not much as of yet about the workout itself. Anyone else notice Duhon being shopped for a pick. I think at Best Duhon gets us a pick in the 20s, but maybe a high second rounder.

On the upside, that coud be enough to get a guy like Gray, Splitter, Crittenden, Fazekas or Smith.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

I really like Noah's attitude. He has a point about Yi -- what a wussy.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

I'll **** my pants if Duhon brings us a 1st rounder. It's not just about talent (or Duhon's relative lack)...it's about financials and losing cheap rookie labor.


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## synergy825 (Apr 28, 2005)

McBulls said:


> I really like Noah's attitude. He has a point about Yi -- what a wussy.


There is a point to why Yi isn't working out with teams. He wants to fall to either the Bulls or Golden State Warriors. Each has big population of chinese-american fans. He wants to be comfortable. He is giving the Bulls a private workout today. And would you say Deng is a wussy? Because he did the same thing when he was being drafted. That's why he fell to #7.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> I'll **** my pants if Duhon brings us a 1st rounder. It's not just about talent (or Duhon's relative lack)...it's about financials and losing cheap rookie labor.


That can work both ways. Teams that in financial trouble often seem to want to dump later first round picks. And, we could potentially take back a non-expiring contract for Duhon's expiring contract, which would be a boon for another team.

I'm not sure if it should be done, but for example a team like the Suns (pick #24) would probably happily trade James Jones (2 years left) or Marcus Banks (4 years left) for Duhon and his 1 year deal.

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I kind of like Noah too. I think he'll be ready to contribute immediately, but I think he's an exceptionally poor fit for us.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

McBulls said:


> I really like Noah's attitude. He has a point about Yi -- what a wussy.


Just like Luol Deng, right? :biggrin: 

(Lu wouldn't engage head to head workouts.)


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## Bulldozer (Jul 11, 2006)

MikeDC said:


> Noah seemed more concerned about talking about Yi Jianlian:
> 
> 
> Not much as of yet about the workout itself. Anyone else notice Duhon being shopped for a pick. I think at Best Duhon gets us a pick in the 20s, but maybe a high second rounder.
> ...


Easy for him to take shots at Yi, since Yi is regarded by majority of the basketball world as the superior prospect. Being a fiery competitor that Noah is, of course, he's not convinced Yi is better so he wants to compete and "see for himself". He may be right in principle, as far as Yi "ducking out, or being lame" but you can't help but believe there's envy behind that voice, as I'm pretty sure he wouldn't go out of his way to tear down lesser prospects had they done the same. I also found the "bring your game not your name" comment silly and unnecessary, because afterall, it's Yi's game that's earned him "the name". Why doesn't Noah elaborate further, what does he mean by this? Yi is a young prospect, he isn't old and "living off his name", so, is he in a way disrespecting foreign talent or Yi's level of competition? Noah seems bitter. If Noah had a decent offensive repertoire, he wouldn't even waste his time talking about Yi. Again, he's only talking because he feels threatened and could never afford to go through the same procedure as Yi, since his stock would plummet even futher. The writer chose to call him "brash", but I think its more accurate to call him a jealous punk.

As far as Duhon, what I'm hoping for is that since lottery teams likely have multiple needs, that a team picking ahead of us with PG in mind bite on a deal _(consisting of Duhon, future picks, nothing too major)_ with us so we can move up from 9.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> "If you're ducking, teams see that," Noah said. "You don't want to be somebody who is ducking players.


I think Noah's repetitive reference to ducks in the context of a Chinese player is racist.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

synergy825 said:


> There is a point to why Yi isn't working out with teams. He wants to fall to either the Bulls or Golden State Warriors. Each has big population of chinese-american fans. He wants to be comfortable. He is giving the Bulls a private workout today. And would you say Deng is a wussy? Because he did the same thing when he was being drafted. That's why he fell to #7.


Deng fell to #7 precisely because he chickened out of workouts based on bad advice. The decision cost him about $4 million dollars, since I bet the Bulls would have drafted him at #3 if he had consented to a standard workout.

So yeah Deng (and his advisors) were wussys, and it cost him a pretty penny.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

Based on the results of the last "Wussy" we drafted (Deng), I hope we end up with another soon.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Noah raised his stock with me a bit when he called Dingaling a wussy and lame lol. I don't want Noah or Dingaling too much, though at least they'd give us size. Hawes is the perfect fit for us, and he'd damn well better be the pick. I LOVE the talk of unloading Duchump. If we could trade him for a pick in the 20s as someone else mentioned, and grab Marcus Williams, Jason Smith, Crittenden/Law (PG to replace him), that'd be a hell of a move on our part. I really don't see him netting anything more than an early 2nd though.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Ok... so the original article in which this interview appeared said that Noah was NOT talking about Yi Jianlian when he made those comments. 

Yet that's how it is spun in this thread.

Can't you picture a reporter asking "So, Joakim, you've decided to work out against another high profile center, how do you think that helps your draft stock?" or something along those lines? Which would really have nothing to do with Yi?


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

Bulldozer said:


> Easy for him to take shots at Yi, since Yi is regarded by majority of the basketball world as the superior prospect. Being a fiery competitor that Noah is, of course, he's not convinced Yi is better so he wants to compete and "see for himself". He may be right in principle, as far as Yi "ducking out, or being lame" but you can't help but believe there's envy behind that voice, as I'm pretty sure he wouldn't go out of his way to tear down lesser prospects had they done the same. I also found the "bring your game not your name" comment silly and unnecessary, because afterall, it's Yi's game that's earned him "the name". Why doesn't Noah elaborate further, what does he mean by this? Yi is a young prospect, he isn't old and "living off his name", so, is he in a way disrespecting foreign talent or Yi's level of competition? Noah seems bitter. If Noah had a decent offensive repertoire, he wouldn't even waste his time talking about Yi. Again, he's only talking because he feels threatened and could never afford to go through the same procedure as Yi, since his stock would plummet even futher. The writer chose to call him "brash", but I think its more accurate to call him a jealous punk.
> 
> As far as Duhon, what I'm hoping for is that since lottery teams likely have multiple needs, that a team picking ahead of us with PG in mind bite on a deal _(consisting of Duhon, future picks, nothing too major)_ with us so we can move up from 9.


Good post, to me the one who comes across as a punk is Noah, almost a ball dont lie referance there. He's probably a bit frustrated because last year at this time he was the top dog and now he isnt. If anyone should have their finger pointed at them it would be Yi's agent, he's carefully trying to script where and when the kid gets draft. It's all part of the game and everyone seems to fall for it. As was mentioned i think they would like Chicago(so wouldnt Hawes),not sure about Golden State, but as i've repeated its going to be tuff because he wont last that long. I think Hawes fits better in the windy city but Yi with the better long range potential.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Noah seemed more concerned about talking about Yi Jianlian:
> 
> 
> Noah also makes fans by claiming himself a Knicks fan and hating on MJ:
> ...


If we were willing to take on a long term contract (I'm guessing we won't be), I'll bet Phoenix would trade us Marcus Banks and pick #24 for Duhon. They're greatly regretting picking Banks. That's the only problem with this deal. We'd be stuck with Banks, his crazy speed, and his absolute lack of basketball IQ. And we'd have him for five more years. Come to think of it, we might even be able to get both of Phoenix's first rounders if we gave the Du and took Banks. The Phoenix sports radio afternoon team talks about trading at least one of those picks with Banks all the time. It's pretty well understood they will look to do that with Banks or Diaw.

Duhon would be great for Phoenix. This year, they pretty much ran an 8-man rotation. D'Antoni only plays guys who he trusts. Right now, that's Nash, Barbosa, Bell, Jones, Marion, Diaw, Thomas, and Stoudamire. You may notice that only one of those players is a point guard (Barbosa is a natural scorer). 

Is anyone a little saddened by how quickly Duhon has been relegated from Skiles's boo to Paxson's boo-hoo?


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> I think Noah's repetitive reference to ducks in the context of a Chinese player is racist.


Yeah, he must really hate Emelio Estevez.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

Is that the feeling, that Duhon is going to be traded for a late 1st round pick? When i saw his name i immediately thought Duhon and the 9th pick for the 3rd pick, and then they would take Yi. Logic there that you wouldnt have to trade up to 3 to get Hawes and that would probably too early for him.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

Dornado said:


> Ok... so the original article in which this interview appeared said that Noah was NOT talking about Yi Jianlian when he made those comments.
> 
> Yet that's how it is spun in this thread.
> 
> Can't you picture a reporter asking "So, Joakim, you've decided to work out against another high profile center, how do you think that helps your draft stock?" or something along those lines? Which would really have nothing to do with Yi?


Thank you.

He just answered a question. Nowhere does he specifically call out Yi. 

In fact, Yi has been working out in LA for awhile now, and Noah trained there too and had nice things to say about him.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

I'd be thrilled to grab a pick in the 20's for Duhon. 

My targets: Splitter or Fernandez. What a steal that would be.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Fernandez. What a steal that would be.


Rudy would look great coming off the bench.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

SALO said:


> I'd be thrilled to grab a pick in the 20's for Duhon.
> 
> My targets: Splitter or Fernandez. What a steal that would be.


I wouldn't. Unless you feel really strongly about somebody in that 20 to 30 range, it's just not worth it. Most guys picked in those slots don't turn out better than Chris Duhon. The reality is that next year probably half of the lotto picks will make a meaningful impact on the teams that draft them, after that maybe 3 to 5 guys will be average NBA players in year 1. The draft is really fun to watch and speculate about, but the fact is that not that many guys really make an impact in their first year's. Picks between 20 and 30 in the draft just aren't worth all that much.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

jbulls said:


> I wouldn't. Unless you feel really strongly about somebody in that 20 to 30 range, it's just not worth it. Most guys picked in those slots don't turn out better than Chris Duhon. The reality is that next year probably half of the lotto picks will make a meaningful impact on the teams that draft them, after that maybe 3 to 5 guys will be average NBA players in year 1. The draft is really fun to watch and speculate about, but the fact is that not that many guys really make an impact in their first year's. Picks between 20 and 30 in the draft just aren't worth all that much.


Duhon is gone after this year, IMO. Even if he were to stick around, his minutes will go down. After that he walks for nothing.

The tardiness, fines, DNP coach's decision against Detroit, the fact Pax went on record saying we need to get Thabo more minutes next year. Now articles state Pax is heavily involved in trade talks. It all adds up. 

To get a 1st rounder, even a later one, is the right thing to do. I think it will also be in Duhon's best interest because he'll probably get more minutes for the team he gets traded to than he would here.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

Noah interview with Bulls.com











> *Bulls.com*: Did you enjoy the competition of going against Hawes in your first two workouts?
> 
> *Noah*: “Definitely. I’m not someone who is going to say I don’t want to workout against this guy or that guy. I think that’s soft and a GM with the right mentality will see that. At the same time, you never know what is going to happen.”













> *Bulls.com*: Yi Jianlian is a relative unknown to most fans, but you had an opportunity to train with him in Los Angeles a few weeks ago. What’s your impression of him?
> 
> *Noah*: “He’s very skilled. We didn’t get to play against each other, though; it was all drills. Just by watching him shoot and do things like that, he could be the top pick in the draft. But you don’t know how he’s going to look running up and down the court with nine other guys, putting a body on him and talking trash to him. He’s the total package when you’re watching him in drills—he can shoot the ball, he can put the ball down on the floor, and he’s pretty athletic.”













> *Bulls.com*: How was getting to know Tyrus Thomas on Thursday, when you spent some time with him watching Game One of the Finals?
> 
> *Noah*: “He’s a cool dude. I am just happy to be here, getting an opportunity to show the Bulls what I can do. I wish I had shot the ball better today, but it’s OK and I’ll keep a positive mindset. Hopefully it was enough to please those guys. I told Tyrus we needed to do an LSU-Florida match-up, because he never beat the Gators. He’s a great guy, though, definitely a competitor who works really hard. I liked him in college, too. I’m a fan of his no matter what happens.”
> 
> ...


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## Snake (Jun 10, 2007)

jbulls said:


> I wouldn't. Unless you feel really strongly about somebody in that 20 to 30 range, it's just not worth it. Most guys picked in those slots don't turn out better than Chris Duhon. The reality is that next year probably half of the lotto picks will make a meaningful impact on the teams that draft them, after that maybe 3 to 5 guys will be average NBA players in year 1. The draft is really fun to watch and speculate about, but the fact is that not that many guys really make an impact in their first year's. Picks between 20 and 30 in the draft just aren't worth all that much.


Those 20-30 slots really aren't worth that much. However I would like to get Splitter there because he might slip to there because of buyout concerns. The Bulls are the third biggest market and one of the most profitable teams. We shouldn't penny pinch like that.
I think I read somewhere that Splitters buyout is 1 mil after next season, so if we had to wait until then it would be reasonable.

I don't hink Splitter will be anything special but I do think he will be a decent big, and if we can trade Du for a decent big I'm all for it.


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## Nu_Omega (Nov 27, 2006)

I'm kinda torned between Noah and Hawes,i'm fine if Pax draft either one of them. Noah is vocal, athletic,has the swagger and talks smack. He would be a good fit with Tyrus and all that energy in the front court would be awesome. Noah's competitive attitude will probably caused him to end up sharing technicals with people like Posey or Rasheed but hey, i wouldn't mind it at all. We need that kind of player who stands up for his teamates. The downsides though are his wierd shooting mechanics and he's yet to develop a set of sound post moves. 

Hawes, what can i say? He really has good fundamentals. Can shoot the J and his post moves are advance for his age. A lot of people are worried about his athletism and i don't think he will be an Amare or Dwight no matter what. He's the type that depends on his footwork, positioning and soft touch to get the job done. Duncan or McHale were'nt the most athletic players for their position but hey look at their achievements. But i'm a bit skeptical of him though as the big white stiff theory has stand the test of time, we'll never know if he'll be another Eric Montross or not.


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## Fizer Fanatic (Jun 20, 2002)

Sometimes you find a Josh Howard (#29) or Tayshaun Prince (#23) in the 20s. If we could give ourselves a chance to get anything remotely close to those players for Duhon in this deep draft, then we should do it. This is especially true given the factors already mentioned w/ Duhon (he's on the block, Thabo to get more minutes, free-agent in a year, attendance issues, etc.).

That said, I do like what Duhon gives us as a player on the court (true PG, good defense, takes & knocks down good open shots, etc.). And we should try to have a solid 4th guard on hand next year in case Thabo isn't ready to step up to being the 3rd guard. Maybe that solid 4th guard could be a vet obtained with a portion of our MLE after we deal Duhon for a pick.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

> *Bulls.com*: What’s your impression of John Paxson and Scott Skiles now that you’ve had the chance to meet them?
> 
> *Noah*: “I really enjoyed getting to know them. We went to dinner on Thursday night and got a feel for each other. I was definitely interested in what they had to say. They had me do a psychology test and I asked Coach Skiles if that affected his coaching. He laughed and said, ‘No way.’”




Whoah. Must be something there. Sounds like Noah didn't even get "the staredown" over the lobster bisque.


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Whoah. Must be something there. Sounds like Noah didn't even get "the staredown" over the lobster bisque.


i still cant believe that happened - and became a morsel for the media for a few days. hilarious.


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## Banjoriddim (Aug 14, 2004)

Snake said:


> Those 20-30 slots really aren't worth that much. However I would like to get Splitter there because he might slip to there because of buyout concerns. The Bulls are the third biggest market and one of the most profitable teams. We shouldn't penny pinch like that.
> I think I read somewhere that Splitters buyout is 1 mil after next season, so if we had to wait until then it would be reasonable.
> 
> I don't hink Splitter will be anything special but I do think he will be a decent big, and if we can trade Du for a decent big I'm all for it.


If you could get him you should be really happy not that he is that special but he has great size is quite skilled also he is tested in worlds second best b-ball league and isn't soft. So not a star but still rare player these days.


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## HINrichPolice (Jan 6, 2004)

Did anyone else's Rasheed (read: not a good thing) sensors go off a little when Noah mentioned "trash talking" as seemingly one of his go to strategies when facing an opponent?

And by no means am I saying that players who trash talk are bad players. It's just that you would've never heard MJ say, "yeah, once I start trash talking Joe Dumars, I'll have an easier time attacking him." Noah sort of gave me the impression that trash talking is something he puts a concerted effort towards doing to throw his opponent of their game.


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## HINrichPolice (Jan 6, 2004)

> Bulls.com: How do you think you would fit in with the current Bulls team?
> Noah: “They’ve got a beast in Ben Wallace down low. People talk about how they need low post scoring, but when I look at the Chicago Bulls, they’re a guard oriented team that is all about drives and kicks and being able to knock down that 15-footer. I love their style of play. They run up and down and they’re very athletic. With Luol Deng, Ben Gordon and Kirk Hinrich, they’ve got a talented group of guys who can score. It’s a great situation and I’d be really excited about the opportunity. But I don’t know what’s going to happen with the draft so I’m keeping an open mind. It’s not my choice like in college when they offer you a scholarship.”


Anyone else sense a lack of confidence and perhaps unwillingness in being able to develop a back to the basket game?

I've been a Noah advocate for a while so I'm trying not to read too much into his interview. However, sometimes you just have a gut feeling and in this case, it's a sour one.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Noah came back for his Junior year and did not improve on offense one bit. You could say he was a 'role' player on an NCAA team in college, I wonder what he will be in the NBA. Food for thought. 

He won't be a bad guy to have in your rotation, but he isn't going to do more than provide something different than Tyson did, Ben Wallace and Tyrus Thomas will.


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## HINrichPolice (Jan 6, 2004)

theanimal23 said:


> Noah came back for his Junior year and did not improve on offense one bit. You could say he was a 'role' player on an NCAA team in college, I wonder what he will be in the NBA. Food for thought.
> 
> He won't be a bad guy to have in your rotation, but he isn't going to do more than provide something different than Tyson did, Ben Wallace and Tyrus Thomas will.



Not that this thread should change into a Noah scouting report, but a common misperception of Noah is the idea that he's simply an energy player in the mold of Tyson and Tyrus.

There's another blatantly obvious positive he has compared to other big men that consistently gets overlooked and I'm not sure why. If you haven't figured it out yet, it's Noah's ability to handle the ball and be a threat in the open court, a dynamic that sometimes is looked down upon when you reach a certain height. I'll even throw in Noah's passing ability as another attribute that differentiates him from Tyson and Tyrus. 

Does Noah have some of the positive qualities that Tyson and Tyrus have? Sure. Does he provide another dynamic that Tyrus and Tyson do not have? It's obvious to me that the answer is yes. As a result, Noah is not a redundant talent in the way that many perceive him.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

Hey, I get it. Both Noah and Tyrus can play Shooting Guard in case we trade Nocioni. 

Dribbling big men.......not a good thing.

I want someone who can score, who can pass and who can hold their own against the average centers in the league. Hawes, Yi, or Randolph Trade


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Lets not make Noah out to be Lamar Odom. At best, you have Noah as a Ben Wallace with his passing ability, and the ability to hit the J at the level of a Samuel Dalembert (can hit it but isn't "PJ" like consistant) with the dribbling of what?

I'm sure we are gonna annoint Noah as the "point forward/center" when he has to lead the break. This guy is a career role player. I rather gamble with Hawes even IF he does not pan out. The benefits are too big to pass on. You can make a career drafting Noah-esque guys in the late 1st round and grab them in FA. Hell if we had a little more cap room we could offer Varejao more than the MLE this summer and get Noah Senior.

Noah has grown on me over the past few weeks, and this is how I still feel about him. Shows you what I thought of him as before. He is a nice player for a team desperate for rebounding, length, and defense. We are desperate for length and offense.

The only way I would dream of accepting Noah on draft day is that everyone else is gone. Then I would advocate 1) Grabbing BPA or 2) Trading the pick.


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## HINrichPolice (Jan 6, 2004)

chifaninca said:


> Hey, I get it. Both Noah and Tyrus can play Shooting Guard in case we trade Nocioni.
> 
> Dribbling big men.......not a good thing.
> 
> I want someone who can score, who can pass and who can hold their own against the average centers in the league. Hawes, Yi, or Randolph Trade


Funny, one of Yi's biggest strengths is his ability to put the ball on the floor for a 7 footer. I guess it'd be a bad idea to draft him.

I'm not sure what's wrong with Noah having an added skill on top of being able to provide defense, rebounding, and the ability to finish at the rim (another attribute that we lack and haven't had for the past 2 seasons).


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## HINrichPolice (Jan 6, 2004)

theanimal23 said:


> Lets not make Noah out to be Lamar Odom. At best, you have Noah as a Ben Wallace with his passing ability, and the ability to hit the J at the level of a Samuel Dalembert (can hit it but isn't "PJ" like consistant) with the dribbling of what? .... I'm sure we are gonna annoint Noah as the "point forward/center" when he has to lead the break.


Let's make it clear that having ugly form doesn't necessarily bring ugly results. Noah can hit the mid range J if left open. Again, another difference between him and the Tyson/Tyrus type of player.

And who's making Noah out to be Lamar Odom? 

I'm talking about the ability to be comfortable with the ball at any given time and as a result, never having that, "crap, Ben Wallace/Tyson Chandler has the ball with 4 seconds on the shot clock" type of feeling. He won't stand there like a deer caught in headlights, pivoting around desperately looking for a teammate then proceed to either turn it over or jack up an emergency fadeaway.


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

*Noah's comment came in response to a general question, not one about Yi. But such brashness is part of the package with the 22-year-old two-time NCAA titlist, who also brings energy and an inconsistent jumper.*

thats what the article says, he wasnt talking about YI. Noah worked out with YI back in LA at whatever academy. He thought Yi was pretty sick. Either way, Brandin wright and julian wright are doing the same thing, just the way some of these agents operate


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

chifaninca said:


> Hey, I get it. Both Noah and Tyrus can play Shooting Guard in case we trade Nocioni.
> 
> Dribbling big men.......not a good thing.
> 
> I want someone who can score, who can pass and who can hold their own against the average centers in the league. *Hawes, Yi, or Randolph Trade*


Exactly the way I feel. Nothing against Noah. We could do worse if he falls to us. But as far as need goes, one of the three you mentioned would be ideal!


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

HINrichPolice said:


> Noah can hit the mid range J if left open. Again, another difference between him and the Tyson/Tyrus type of player.


In the games I watched, I never saw Noah hit a mid range J. In fact, he form is so ugly I really doubt he will ever be effective in the pros. TT is definetly ahead of him in this area in my book.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

The later first round picks are of course not as likely to be hits, but most every year almost there are a couple guys picked there who turn out very good. Since our greatest strength to date under Paxson has been in drafting players, I'd try playing to it.
06- Balkman, Rondo, Rodriguez, Daniel Gibson
05- Maxiel, David Lee
04- Kevin Martin, Tony Allen, Varejao, Duhon
03- Diaw, Brian Cook, Barbosa, Josh Howard, Kapono, Luke Walton, Zaza Pachulia, Matt Bonner, Kyle Korver
02- Gadzuric, Boozer, Songaila, Salmons, Krstic, Prince

Obviously it depends on making the right pick, but this is a better than average draft and I'd be pretty surprised if a couple of decent players didn't come out after pick 20.


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## HINrichPolice (Jan 6, 2004)

johnston797 said:


> In fact, he form is so ugly I really doubt he will ever be effective in the pros.


(In a Dwight Schrute voice)

FACT: Noah's form is ugly.
FACT: Ugly form doesn't necessarily mean ugly results. See Marion, Shawn.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

HINrichPolice said:


> (In a Dwight Schrute voice)
> 
> FACT: Noah's form is ugly.
> FACT: Ugly form doesn't necessarily mean ugly results. See Marion, Shawn.


True enough. Still, that's the exception not the rule. To date, ugly form has meant ugly results as far as Noah's jumper goes. It's possible that could change, but I'm not sure that it's likely.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

MikeDC said:


> The later first round picks are of course not as likely to be hits, but most every year almost there are a couple guys picked there who turn out very good. Since our greatest strength to date under Paxson has been in drafting players, I'd try playing to it.
> 06- Balkman, Rondo, Rodriguez, Daniel Gibson
> 05- Maxiel, David Lee
> 04- Kevin Martin, Tony Allen, Varejao, Duhon
> ...


When you're going for a big guy, getting anything out of later picks gets exponentially harder. I think a grand total of 3 of those guys (Pachulia, Krstic, Gadzuric) are 6'10'' or taller. Of those 3, only Krstic was much of a factor as a rookie. Are we going to find this year's Nenad Krstic with a pick in the 20's? I doubt it. We've got a deep team, I just don't see the sense in drafting down and choosing 2 rookies. I don't want this year's Cedric Simmons and Hilton Armstrong. We need a quality big. We've got assets in Duhon, the 9th pick and maybe Nocioni if we're inclined to deal him. Let's go get one.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I think this team needs plenty of help. It doesn't have to be a big guy to please me, though I actually think this is the rare draft that can have one who becomes solid, given that you've got several guys - Splitter, Smith, Fazekas, Gray- who look to be pushed down the board a little bit.

Seriously though, we're offensively challenged and undersized all over the place. Our strong suit has generally been the draft (though the jury is still out on last year's guys). Other things being equal, I feel better about our chances of finding guys who can play there than anywhere else (trades and free agency).

Duhon, the 9th pick and Noc, I think, aren't going to get us an immediately contributing big either. So instead of hoping against hope they will, why not just accept that they won't and try to plan for the long run?


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

MikeDC said:


> I think this team needs plenty of help. It doesn't have to be a big guy to please me, though I actually think this is the rare draft that can have one who becomes solid, given that you've got several guys - Splitter, Smith, Fazekas, Gray- who look to be pushed down the board a little bit.
> 
> Seriously though, we're offensively challenged and undersized all over the place. Our strong suit has generally been the draft (though the jury is still out on last year's guys). Other things being equal, I feel better about our chances of finding guys who can play there than anywhere else (trades and free agency).
> 
> Duhon, the 9th pick and Noc, I think, aren't going to get us an immediately contributing big either. So instead of hoping against hope they will, why not just accept that they won't and try to plan for the long run?


Maybe this is that rare draft. But you're a numbers guy, Mike. And you know that if history is any indication we're not getting a 6'10'' guy who can play anytime soon after the 15th pick. Unless we luck into a Nenad Krstic. But come on, we're not going to. Aaron Gray? Nick Fazekas? At best, one of them is Michael Doleac. We should be trying to consolidate our assets any way we can and get a decent inside player. And if we can't do that we should gamble at 9 and hope Noah or Hawes turns out alright. I have a really, really hard time believing that the best plan (drafting down and selecting multiple bigs later in round 1) is one with absolutely no historical precedent.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

jbulls said:


> Maybe this is that rare draft. But you're a numbers guy, Mike. And you know that if history is any indication we're not getting a 6'10'' guy who can play anytime soon after the 15th pick. Unless we luck into a Nenad Krstic. But come on, we're not going to. Aaron Gray? Nick Fazekas? At best, one of them is Michael Doleac. We should be trying to consolidate our assets any way we can and get a decent inside player. And if we can't do that we should gamble at 9 and hope Noah or Hawes turns out alright. I have a really, really hard time believing that the best plan (drafting down and selecting multiple bigs later in round 1) is one with absolutely no historical precedent.


I agree that the Bulls should just take the best center available at #9. The only exception would be if the previous 8 picks were all big men and the only guys left were Smith, Splitter and Gray. In that circumstance perhaps it would make sense to draft the best small player available and trade him down for one of the remaining bigs and some other considerations. I also agree that it will be quite some time before any center they draft will provide significant help. But you gotta do what you gotta do to safeguard the future.

The Bulls were a pretty good team this year and they have a lot of room for internal improvement. The near-pathological obsession with getting an effective low post scorer could be partially satiated by probable improvements in Deng, Nocioni and Thomas's games. The only things the Bulls really need to add are replacements for Brown (if he won't resign), Sweets and Marty. Draft picks should be fine replacements for the latter two players. Replacing Brown with Mihm or some other journeyman center should only require the MLE.

I don't like all the talk of trading backcourt players or not resigning Nocioni and Allen. There's no problem there that needs fixing that justifies dispersing a significant fraction of the rotation players on last year's team. 

There's virtue in not shaking up the roster every year in reaction to perceived weaknesses. Coaches and players can find ways to solve a weakness without dismantling the team every year as they learn to play together better. If they manage to resist the temptation to make major trades they will go into next year with a roster that has been strengthened a bit with internal improvement, a new lottery pick rookie, a healthy Nocioni, and a team that has had a year to develop chemistry. That should be enough for a 54+ win regular season, a good slot in the playoffs and a shot at the title.


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## charlietyra (Dec 1, 2002)

McBulls said:


> I agree that the Bulls should just take the best center available at #9. The only exception would be if the previous 8 picks were all big men and the only guys left were Smith, Splitter and Gray. In that circumstance perhaps it would make sense to draft the best small player available and trade him down for one of the remaining bigs and some other considerations. I also agree that it will be quite some time before any center they draft will provide significant help. But you gotta do what you gotta do to safeguard the future.
> 
> The Bulls were a pretty good team this year and they have a lot of room for internal improvement. The near-pathological obsession with getting an effective low post scorer could be partially satiated by probable improvements in Deng, Nocioni and Thomas's games. The only things the Bulls really need to add are replacements for Brown (if he won't resign), Sweets and Marty. Draft picks should be fine replacements for the latter two players. Replacing Brown with Mihm or some other journeyman center should only require the MLE.
> 
> ...


Very sensible post. If just one team takes either Conley or J. Wright prior to our pick, then one big should fall to us (assuming Hawes stays in the draft and Brewer is picked ahead of us). If Conley or J. Wright are not taken before #9, which is a good possibility considering the quality of the big men available, then I would be comfortable trading down and getting Splitter or Smith. 

Although I like Nocioni, he and his new deal may be a luxury the team cannot afford. I don't see him getting a lot of minutes next year with Thomas, Sefalosha and the new pick getting significant minutes. I am ok with trading him for a first rounder next year. He could even be a chip in a post-draft deal to get Zach, if Portland can't unload him for a lottery pick.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

charlietyra said:


> Although I like Nocioni, he and his new deal may be a luxury the team cannot afford. I don't see him getting a lot of minutes next year with Thomas, Sefalosha and the new pick getting significant minutes. I am ok with trading him for a first rounder next year. He could even be a chip in a post-draft deal to get Zach, if Portland can't unload him for a lottery pick.


Nocioni and Duhon are both luxuries to have. Both provide inexpensive, quality depth that can be critical when Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, or Thomas have an injury or get into foul trouble. Together they are more valuable than any high-priced player the Bulls are likely to get in trade for them. 

The only concern is that they may not remain inexpensive if another team offers them more than the MLE when they are free agents. In that case a sign and trade may be in order, but my real preference would be for the Bulls ownership to be more realistic about what it takes financially to build a first class team in the NBA. It's not only superstars who should be paid, but good role players as well. Duhon and Nocioni are well integrated into the Bulls team, and will be missed if they are traded away.

But back on topic, either Noah or Hawes should be a good long-term fit for the Bulls. I see Noah as a Varejo like center -- strength, quickness, energy and defense with better passing ability and basketball IQ. Hawes is younger and a bit more of a gamble IMO, but it's unlikely that he will not bulk up rapidly. If he's willling to work and learn, perhaps he can become an adequate defender. All in all i prefer defense and rebounding to offense in the center position if they can't be combined, so of the two I prefer Noah. I also value the fact that Noah comes from an outstanding NCAA team that won two titles in part because of Noah's sacrifice and team play.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

jbulls said:


> Maybe this is that rare draft. But you're a numbers guy, Mike. And you know that if history is any indication we're not getting a 6'10'' guy who can play anytime soon after the 15th pick. Unless we luck into a Nenad Krstic. But come on, we're not going to. Aaron Gray? Nick Fazekas? At best, one of them is Michael Doleac. We should be trying to consolidate our assets any way we can and get a decent inside player. And if we can't do that we should gamble at 9 and hope Noah or Hawes turns out alright. I have a really, really hard time believing that the best plan (drafting down and selecting multiple bigs later in round 1) is one with absolutely no historical precedent.


Let's try to crack this nut differently. Over the next two seasons, would you rather have, say, rookie and second year versions Jason Collins and Richard Jefferson or Shawn Marion, or a rookie and second year version of Al Jefferson or Robert Swift?

You see the point I'm trying to make. A guy like Collins was never going to be a star, but he was more or less capable of playing ball when he came into the league. He might never be more than a 15 minute a night guy, but he was a 15 minute a night guy from the getgo and RJeff was a quality player from the beginning.

A guy like Jefferson, who I think Hawes is quite comparable to, obviously has lots of upside, but they've got a ways to go.

My disagreement with you isn't because I disagree that to get a star big man, you usually need to trade up, it's just that I don't think the Bulls 
1) Feel they can consolidate assets and trade up
2) Feel like waiting 2 or 3 years for a 19 year old kid to develop while Ben Wallace is getting old, and while they've already got the Tyrus Thomas pot boiling.
3) Another reason for trading down... the Bulls aren't very deep or very flexible. Despite the win-now pretentions, look objectively and the Bulls have
* 4 full time players-Wallace (aging), Deng, Hinrich, Gordon (who they still don't seem to know what to do with)
* 1 quality sixth to seventh man, Nocioni, coming off a major injury
* 1 quality defense-only PG who they appear to want to get rid of
* Two very raw rookies who weren't capable of regular action at the end of their first year, and again, are guys with pretty limited looking offensive game. Obviously, they've got a lot of upside and might be more than that, but if you look at them now, that's what you've got.

That's not the sort of depth you look for on a contender. You don't know for sure what you've got with the youngsters and you're likely losing Duhon. Just from a financial perspective, hitting on a couple of guys on 4 year rookie contracts who could be solid 6th-8th men is going to be a necessity with our current guys up for extensions. Getting guys who can score points is going to be a necessity. Getting a big body is a necessity.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

I didn't catch this first hand, but somebody on the Timberwolves board says Andy Katz heard a rumor that the Wolves gave Hawes a promise. That hardly sounds like a sure thing, but that's definitely a possible destination for Hawes.

http://www.basketballforum.com/minnesota-timberwolves/349111-draft-prospects-5.html


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> I didn't catch this first hand, but somebody on the Timberwolves board says Andy Katz heard a rumor that the Wolves gave Hawes a promise. That hardly sounds like a sure thing, but that's definitely a possible destination for Hawes.
> 
> http://www.basketballforum.com/minnesota-timberwolves/349111-draft-prospects-5.html



That would be about third hand info. Katz would be one of the few that i would believe though. That's good for the Bulls, sort of shows them where they need to get if they indeed want the guy. I always figured that Mchale would see a little of himself in Hawes. As for the T-wolves they should move Garnett before he starts to decline and build that team from the ground up.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

rainman said:


> That would be about third hand info. Katz would be one of the few that i would believe though. That's good for the Bulls, sort of shows them where they need to get if they indeed want the guy. I always figured that Mchale would see a little of himself in Hawes. As for the T-wolves they should move Garnett before he starts to decline and build that team from the ground up.


If it's true, and we don't know that it is, it's not good for the Bulls at all if Hawes is their guy. Try as they might, they might not have a way to trade up and get him. With all the talk of trading the pick, I get the idea that Pax isn't nuts for any of these guys.

If Minnesota offered Hawes a promise, would it have been necessary to work out for the Bulls two days later?

Maybe I'm just rationalizing. Hawes is "my guy" in the 2007 draft.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> If it's true, and we don't know that it is, it's not good for the Bulls at all if Hawes is their guy. Try as they might, they might not have a way to trade up and get him. With all the talk of trading the pick, I get the idea that Pax isn't nuts for any of these guys.
> 
> If Minnesota offered Hawes a promise, would it have been necessary to work out for the Bulls two days later?
> 
> Maybe I'm just rationalizing. Hawes is "my guy" in the 2007 draft.


It wouldnt surprise me if he didnt at some point get a promise from the Celtics i think he's that good. If he does go that high it just means there will be other good players available at 9.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Chad Ford also mentioned in his chat that he hears rumors Minnesota will be taking Hawes. 

Ugh.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

How desperate is Boston to improve in the near future? Does anyone imagine, if they're talking about Marion for #5, they'd consider Wallace for #5?

Let's imagine for a second that they would. I expect Horford to be gone, but we draft Noah, who the Bulls appear to have been hot on for 2 years, and then we pick Yi at #9. We get Pax's own version of the twin towers experiment, but with at least one of them a guy who can probably hit the ground running, though I don't discount the possibility Yi couldl as well.


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## Snake (Jun 10, 2007)

MikeDC said:


> How desperate is Boston to improve in the near future? Does anyone imagine, if they're talking about Marion for #5, they'd consider Wallace for #5?
> 
> Let's imagine for a second that they would. I expect Horford to be gone, but we draft Noah, who the Bulls appear to have been hot on for 2 years, and then we pick Yi at #9. We get Pax's own version of the twin towers experiment, but with at least one of them a guy who can probably hit the ground running, though I don't discount the possibility Yi couldl as well.


The Celtics might actually be willing to do this trade as they suck at center. Scalabrene? Perkins? ugh.
I would or wouldn't do this depending on who we got back. We'd have to take Wally-World from them for salaries. He's a good shooter when not injured, which is rarely. We would get one of their young players. Don't know which exactly. If it's someone good I'd do it, if not I wouldn't.

We'd take a small step back next year (again?) but would be better in the long run.

Celtics lineup:

Wallace
Jefferson
Pierce
Green?
Rondo

Celtics make the playoffs the next couple of years but go back to the cellar after that. I think Ainge is desperate enough to do it.

And it would have to be done before the draft unless the Celtics don't trade the pick and coicidentally take the player we want.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Chad Ford also mentioned in his chat that he hears rumors Minnesota will be taking Hawes.
> 
> Ugh.


Ugh, indeed. I think Hawes is really a great fit for us.

On the plus side though, Hawes moving up means someone else will drop. This could pave the way for Yi coming to Chicago, which would be one heck of a deal for a #9 pick. He's a top 3 caliber talent, IMO.


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