# Carter > Tmac



## notting_hill (Dec 18, 2005)

Discuss...


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

2000 First Round Playoffs - NY Vs. Toronto.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Career Stats


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Playoff Stats


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

All NBA 1st, 2nd, 3rd Teams


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Scoring Titles


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Age


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## notting_hill (Dec 18, 2005)

Dunking ability.


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## Ballyhoo (May 30, 2003)

Prolific Scorer said:


> 2000 First Round Playoffs - NY Vs. Toronto.


Carter: 19.3/6.0/6.3
McGrady: 16.7/7.0/3.0

Edge: Carter



Prolific Scorer said:


> Career Stats


Carter: 23.9 ppg
McGrady: 22.2 ppg

Edge: Carter



Prolific Scorer said:


> Playoff Stats


Carter: 11-16, 2 times beyond first round
McGrady: 8-17, never beyond first round

Edge: Carter



Ballyhoo said:


> All-Star Game Selections


Carter: 7
McGrady: 6

Edge: Carter



Prolific Scorer said:


> Age


Carter: 29, complains like he has the body of a 35 year old
McGrady: 26, plays like he has the body of a 35 year old

Edge: Carter


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Ballyhoo said:


> Carter: 19.3/6.0/6.3
> McGrady: 16.7/7.0/3.0
> 
> Edge: Carter
> ...


 :rofl: 

nice job.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Two very similar players, not really much that differentiates one from the other. Unfortunately Tmac prefers to camp behind the 3pt line now.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Ugh.


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## digital jello (Jan 10, 2003)

Ballyhoo said:


> Carter: 19.3/6.0/6.3
> McGrady: 16.7/7.0/3.0
> 
> Edge: Carter
> ...


Awesome work.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

carter and tmac are two of my favorite players but i would have tmac over carter any day of the week.....

Tmac when playing healthy is on the same level as kobe... (he probably took a step back this year)


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Orlando T-Mac was better than Carter ever was.


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## 23isback (Mar 15, 2006)

Tmac on a team is an instant playoff team. 'Nuff said.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

I have major issues w/ alot of the things Carter does on the court (more specifically what he just sometimes doesn't bother to do). But, TMac's approach to the game is horribly flawed. Until he changes it no matter what kind of team is around him, he'll never get past the 2nd round. Hell, to this point, he hasn't even gotten past the 1st round. TMac needs JKidd as much or more than Carter ever did.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Hairy Midget said:


> Orlando T-Mac was better than Carter ever was.


Present Vince better than Present Tmac

2000, 2001 better than any version of Tmac


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Where is John?


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

People seem to forget how good a player is when they don't see him for a long time. 



Hbwoy said:


> Present Vince better than Present Tmac


Is November 12 of the 05-06 season present TMac?

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?t=215454&page=17&pp=30



Air Fly said:


> For the first time I admit he's (McGrady) better than Vince Carter.





fruitcake said:


> yup its the first time i've admited T-mac is not at the same level to Vince.





Hbwoy said:


> Well am done they won nothing can be don about this. Tmac is just too good





Carter15Nets said:


> TMac > VC





Chaser 55 said:


> trade Carter for McGrady lol :biggrin:



The 2003 McGrady had a 30.3 PER... one of the highest of all time. Even through this injury plagued year where he put up career LOW numbers, McGrady still had a higher PER than Carter. And that's just statistics, if we look at on court impact it's a wash. Vince has not outplayed McGrady since he left Toronto, although if McGrady turns into a jump shooter that might change next season.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

If McGrady remains as injury-prone as he was on 2005-06, Carter is better.

A healthy McGrady is better than Carter: a similar scorer, a better passer and ball-handler, a better rebounder and a better defender.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

23isback said:


> Tmac on a team is an instant playoff team. 'Nuff said.


Unless that team is the Orlando Magic...


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> People seem to forget how good a player is when they don't see him for a long time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


party pooper


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## Rickbarry (Feb 22, 2005)

Didn't carter tank games and play crappy in his last year with the raptors? Then like game 1 as a net he started actually trying to play? I seem to recall that.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> If McGrady remains as injury-prone as he was on 2005-06, Carter is better.
> 
> A healthy McGrady is better than Carter: a similar scorer, a better passer and ball-handler, a better rebounder and a better defender.


Carter is the better passer and ball-handler, T-mac edges Carter in defense only.


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## ravor44 (Feb 26, 2005)

I'd say McGrady is better but just by a strand of hair...


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## Cagee7 (Apr 23, 2006)

Right now i'll take carter but a couple of years ago it would have been Tmac.


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## ENIGMATIC 1 (Dec 1, 2005)

V.Carter is a lazy player but a hall of fame talent. It looks like T-Mac's body is breaking down badly. I'll have to pick VC on this one b/c he is a way better athlete and goes to the rim a little bit more. VC should be better than what he is right now.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

If you judge them by their peaks thus far, T-Mac easily trumps Carter.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> Carter is the better passer and ball-handler, T-mac edges Carter in defense only.


ive gotta agree with minstrel on this. tmac is an amazing passer and had the playmaking/passing/ball-handling skills to run the point full time for houston and orlando in the past since they never had a servicable point. even in their toronto days, tmac from what i understand was used in a scottie pippen type role where he go to display his passing ball-handling skills and defense.

a healthy tmac is better, easily IMO


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

if they are both 100% healthy ill take Tmac.. has the better all around game.


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

I select TMac.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

First of props to Mr Cardigan for finding that post, although I thought the search function is off. The only thing I think Tmac has over Vince is having better handles, everything else is pretty argueable.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

T-Mac period is better.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

> Carter > Tmac


While T-Mac is injured and out of the playoffs? Sure.

But unlike Carter, T-Mac actually wants to be The Man on his team. Vince is still a very good second banana as long as J-Kidd is in charge. I need more than one good playoff run to be convinced that VC has changed his tune.


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

JKidd may direct the offense but He is clearly the go-to guy in clutch situations. he is primarily the first offense when they need a basket.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Tmac >> Carter


not even close. The only reason ppl are talking about Carter right now is because Tmac was injured this season and as much as his back will slow him down, if Tmac plays 60+ games and makes the playoffs, even if its 8th seed, everybody will be Tmac >> Carter


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## t1no (Jul 10, 2005)

Ballyhoo said:


> Carter: 19.3/6.0/6.3
> McGrady: 16.7/7.0/3.0
> 
> Edge: Carter
> ...


Very nice, it's pretty easy to compare two players that don't defense.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> First of props to Mr Cardigan for finding that post, although I thought the search function is off. The only thing I think Tmac has over Vince is having better handles, everything else is pretty argueable.


Peak Tmac as a scorer is far better than Carter has ever been; 32.1 ppg on 45.7% shooting, versus Carter's 27.6 on 46.0% shooting. That's with consistent double teaming, as well as 7.7 made FTs per game versus Carter's 5.1 made FTs per game. Rebounding career high for Tmac; 7.9. Carter: 5.9. Assists career high for Tmac; 5.7. Carter: 4.7. 

There's no question that prime, healthy Tmac is a noticably better player than Vince Carter. And Tmac's defense has gotten better since coming to the Rockets.


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## reno2000 (Aug 23, 2005)

When healthy, Tmac is so much more a complete player than carter could ever wish to be. he is a way better passer, he can run the point properly if need be. a better shooter, 3pt shooter, not sure about handles, its pretty close. and he is a way better defender.
But in saying that, mcgrady has regressed in my opinion this year, and unless he cures his back problems will basically continue to regress. as a mcgrady fan since his first orlando season, i must say that i think we have seen the best of him, bar some miraculous cure to his injury. 
Carter meanwhile, could lift the peak of his game, but only in the next two years. so much of his game is based on explosive athletisim, and 32 in three years time, he isnt gonna be the same player. 

Give me a healthy tmac over carter anyday, but based on the current situation then i would probably take carter for his durability.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

reno2000 said:


> i would probably take carter for his durability.


a year ago, that is something i never thought i would here, especially on this site.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Another thread attempting to compare Vince to a better player. Personally, I like it better when the Vince fans try to be stealthy and just make threads bashing Kobe, LBJ, Wade, TMac, Pierce, etc without mentioning Vince.

Perhaps they just need some new ideas. How about some threads on

Marion > Kobe
Redd > Pierce
AK47 > LBJ


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## tranjsaic (Feb 11, 2005)

Hands down a healthly Tmac wins this one. When healthly Tmac is THE only player who can keep up with Kobe in the scoring department.

Too bad we have seen the last of a healthly Tmac, he was my favorite player for many years its very sad to see all the problems he has with his back. He will NEVER be the same Tmac again. I perdict Allan Houston now, just a good jump shooter, no more slashing, no more dishing no more defense.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

LOL @ this thread, I have seen a healthy Tmac and have seen a healthy Vince. Anyways Tmac has always been a regular season monster no doubt, unfortunately that doesnt translate to the games where it matters most and yes my friends, that is the true judge of a player.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> LOL @ this thread, I have seen a healthy Tmac and have seen a healthy Vince. Anyways Tmac has always been a regular season monster no doubt, unfortunately that doesnt translate to the games where it matters most and yes my friends, that is the true judge of a player.


Anyone else think this post will be tossed back in his face in a few weeks?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

EHL said:


> Peak Tmac as a scorer is far better than Carter has ever been; 32.1 ppg on 45.7% shooting, versus Carter's 27.6 on 46.0% shooting. That's with consistent double teaming, as well as 7.7 made FTs per game versus Carter's 5.1 made FTs per game. Rebounding career high for Tmac; 7.9. Carter: 5.9. Assists career high for Tmac; 5.7. Carter: 4.7.
> 
> There's no question that prime, healthy Tmac is a noticably better player than Vince Carter. And Tmac's defense has gotten better since coming to the Rockets.


But since you have compared their career highs, wouldnt it be fair to compare their career stats. Unfortunately when it comes to Vince people always seem to forget that. BTW I have always felt Tmac was the best rebounding guard-forward not named LBJ in the league.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> Anyone else think this post will be tossed back in his face in a few weeks?


You would just love that wouldnt you, lol I actually think it infuriates some that the Nets are doing so well right now or this past season for that matter just because Vince will be credited for a fair amount of that success.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> You would just love that wouldnt you, lol I actually think it infuriates some that the Nets are doing so well right now or this past season for that matter just because Vince will be credited for a fair amount of that success.


Love it, no. But it is ammusing to watch you continually paint yourself into a corner when talking about these comparissons.

Also, you really should keep the pop psych to Lucy because you're really bad at it.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> Love it, no. But it is ammusing to watch you continually paint yourself into a corner when talking about these comparissons.
> 
> Also, you really should keep the pop psych to Lucy because you're really bad at it.


As usual cpaw, you have brightened my day. You always seem to outdo yourself. As usual with this threads no one's opinions will ever get changed, so I usually find it amusing to post in such threads. Nothing to get all worked up about.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

> Also, you really should keep the pop psych to Lucy because you're really bad at it


In the wise words of Charles Barkley, I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> In the *wise words of Charles Barkley*, I could be wrong, but I highly doubt it.


An oxymoron from a player some called an ox and many have called a ....


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

cpawfan said:


> Anyone else think this post will be tossed back in his face in a few weeks?



You mean like many other post about Kenyon Martin that have been tossed back to your face? The fact that you hate Carter does not make T-mac ( right now) a better player than Vince. Right now, Vince is the better player and if you can't accept it, well you can still go read and learn more about Zoran , that will cheer you up for a bit.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

LOL. This thread has turned into Hbwoy vs. cpawfan.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

VC_15 said:


> You mean like many other post about Kenyon Martin that have been tossed back to your face? The fact that you hate Carter does not make T-mac ( right now) a better player than Vince. Right now, Vince is the better player and if you can't accept it, well you can still go read and learn more about Zoran , that will cheer you up for a bit.


 A unprovoked personal attack. Please continue to make an *** out of yourself and perputuate the horrible sterotype Vince fans have on this board.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

neoxsupreme said:


> LOL. This thread has turned into Hbwoy vs. cpawfan.


Actually its all in jest, at least on my part it is. Nothing to get riled up about. Not everyone likes Vince, same as Tmac. I actually like both players.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Hbwoy said:


> But since you have compared their career highs, wouldnt it be fair to compare their career stats. Unfortunately when it comes to Vince people always seem to forget that. BTW I have always felt Tmac was the best rebounding guard-forward not named LBJ in the league.




I think ppl fail to realize that even injured, Tmac stats are still better than Carter's.

tmac
24.4ppg, 4.8 apg, 6.5rpg, 1.26 spg, on 2.55tpg

carter
24.2ppg, 4.3apg, 5.8rpg, 1.19spg, on 2.70tpg


Carter has Kidd to play the point and he still commits more TO, Tmac basically bring the ball up every time, tmac has always been the better defender and rebounder as well as scorer.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Actually its all in jest, at least on my part it is. Nothing to get riled up about. Not everyone likes Vince, same as Tmac. I actually like both players.


Yeah, imagine that a mod and a CM are having sarcastic banter about a topic that's been beaten to death. But please let your legion of supporters continue to attack me (you know, the one with the access to the suspend/ban button  )


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

also it isn't completely fair to compare career stats cuz tmac played 18 min a game his rookie season and 22 min his sophmore season. Carter played plretty much 35-40min a season since his rookie season (35.2).

If you want to compare career stats, you should take away tmac's first 2 years as it dips the balance quite a lot.


Which would be 25.4 to Carter's 23.9. (As far as scoring goes)


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

cpawfan said:


> A unprovoked personal attack. Please continue to make an *** out of yourself and perputuate the horrible sterotype Vince fans have on this board.


*1) Do NOT personally attack other posters. Moderators or regular posters - just don't do it.
2) Do not mask curse.

If you have a problem with a poster, PM them.*


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Dee-Zy said:


> also it isn't completely fair to compare career stats cuz tmac played 18 min a game his rookie season and 22 min his sophmore season. Carter played plretty much 35-40min a season since his rookie season (35.2).
> 
> If you want to compare career stats, you should take away tmac's first 2 years as it dips the balance quite a lot.
> 
> ...


Yeah, you can't really blame McGrady for how he was used in the first two/three years of his career. But they won't cut out those years because it puts McGrady way ahead.


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## terminalman (May 12, 2006)

Dee-Zy said:


> also it isn't completely fair to compare career stats cuz tmac played 18 min a game his rookie season and 22 min his sophmore season. Carter played plretty much 35-40min a season since his rookie season (35.2).
> 
> If you want to compare career stats, you should take away tmac's first 2 years as it dips the balance quite a lot.
> 
> ...



I strongly agree!


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Hbwoy said:


> LOL @ this thread, I have seen a healthy Tmac and have seen a healthy Vince. Anyways Tmac has always been a regular season monster no doubt, unfortunately that doesnt translate to the games where it matters most and yes my friends, that is the true judge of a player.



funny how according to nba.com

Carter played 27 PO games and Tmac 25. Not that much of a difference huh? If the rocks haven't been plagued by injuries, especially Tmac's back, he would be playin right now as well.


in 2 games difference of playoff games, 


tmac:
29.8ppg, 6.8rbp, 5.8apg, on .441%FPG .333%3PG


Carter:
26.5ppg, 7.1rpg, 5.3apg, on .417%FPG .328%3PG


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Dee-Zy said:


> I think ppl fail to realize that even injured, Tmac stats are still better than Carter's.
> 
> tmac
> 24.4ppg, 4.8 apg, 6.5rpg, 1.26 spg, on 2.55tpg
> ...


Fair analysis


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Dee-Zy said:


> funny how according to nba.com
> 
> Carter played 27 PO games and Tmac 25. Not that much of a difference huh? If the rocks haven't been plagued by injuries, especially Tmac's back, he would be playin right now as well.
> 
> ...


Ah! but then you could also use the injury arguement for Vince. Up until last season his teams have always been in the playoff hunt, if not for injuries he would have had much more playoff games. And regarding the playoff stats they are pretty much comparable, same as the career stats (skewed or not skewed).


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

speedythief said:


> Yeah, you can't really blame McGrady for how he was used in the first two/three years of his career. But they won't cut out those years because it puts McGrady way ahead.




Yep, and if you only avg his scoring post raptors, it really shows how better of a scorer Tmac really is once he was able to step out of VC's shadow. (27.1ppg once he's a first option)

lol @ Carter's 23.9 as a first option.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> Yeah, you can't really blame McGrady for how he was used in the first two/three years of his career. But they won't cut out those years because it puts McGrady way ahead.


And how exactly is it Vince's fault that Tmac wasnt prepared for the league.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Dee-Zy said:


> Yep, and if you only avg his scoring post raptors, it really shows how better of a scorer Tmac really is once he was able to step out of VC's shadow. (27.1ppg once he's a first option)
> 
> lol @ Carter's 23.9 as a first option.


That 23.9ppg is still third highest amongst current active players


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> And how exactly is it Vince's fault that Tmac wasnt prepared for the league.


If you want to look at it that way be my guest, but we both know that wasn't the real issue.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> If you want to look at it that way be my guest, but we both know that wasn't the real issue.


And what exactly was the real issue, am I missing something here


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Hbwoy said:


> Ah! but then you could also use the injury arguement for Vince. Up until last season his teams have always been in the playoff hunt, if not for injuries he would have had much more playoff games. And regarding the playoff stats they are pretty much comparable, same as the career stats (skewed or not skewed).



Yes PO stats are pretty comparable, but it def shows that Tmac is the better scorer and much more effective on the offensive end, FG%.

Post 2002, I think the reason why his team didn't make the playoffs was much more due to him rather than his injuries, but that's debatable. Nevertheless, you are right. I don't see how it refutes or cancels anything I said. All I was saying is that prior to this season, Carter and Tmac only had 2 games difference of Post season games. Carter will be ahead after playing about what ... 10 games this season? But that's it, I expect Tmac to make the playoff next year.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

speedythief said:


> If you want to look at it that way be my guest, but we both know that wasn't the real issue.



The fact is when T-mac left Toronto, Vince carried his team to the 2nd round and was 10 seconds away from making it to the ECF. T-mac went to Orlando, and had arugably the same talent around him as Carter had, and he didn't pass the first round. Hell even with Yao ming he didn't pass the first round, yeh that guy is something.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Dee-Zy said:


> Yes PO stats are pretty comparable, but it def shows that Tmac is the better scorer and much more effective on the offensive end, FG%.
> 
> Post 2002, I think the reason why his team didn't make the playoffs was much more due to him rather than his injuries, but that's debatable. Nevertheless, you are right. I don't see how it refutes or cancels anything I said. All I was saying is that prior to this season, Carter and Tmac only had 2 games difference of Post season games. Carter will be ahead after playing about what ... 10 games this season? But that's it, I expect Tmac to make the playoff next year.


Good post


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Hbwoy said:


> And what exactly was the real issue, am I missing something here




Raptors management/coaching. Besides I could give it to you for his rookie season since he was straight out of HS but Tmac was put aside for Carter ever since Carter got into the league. His rookie season, he played 35.2 mpg and had only 18.3 ppg. Tmac played 22.6 mpg while he was a sophmore, the next year he finally got min at 31.2mpg, but carter played 38.1 mpg. While always being the option after Carter, that is why you can't blame tmac, Toronto had too much of a hard on for Carter to notice anything else from anybody else, it had nothing to do with tmac not being ready.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> And what exactly was the real issue, am I missing something here


Well for starters McGrady was 18 years old when he entered in the NBA, the youngest player at the time, fresh out of high school. What was Vince, 21? Do you want to start the comparisons when they are both 21?

It wasn't that McGrady wasn't prepared, it was that he was young and his coaches had no faith in him, wrongly. He was kept down in Toronto, to the eternal frustration of Raptors fans.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Dee-Zy said:


> Raptors management/coaching. Besides I could give it to you for his rookie season since he was straight out of HS but Tmac was put aside for Carter ever since Carter got into the league. His rookie season, he played 35.2 mpg and had only 18.3 ppg. Tmac played 22.6 mpg while he was a sophmore, the next year he finally got min at 31.2mpg, but carter played 38.1 mpg. While always being the option after Carter, that is why you can't blame tmac, Toronto had too much of a hard on for Carter to notice anything else from anybody else, it had nothing to do with tmac not being ready.


All this just tells me was Vince was the more NBA ready player. Doesnt it say a lot that they drafted a player that plays basically the same position as Tmac. But anyways that wasnt even the issue back then, no one knew what kind of player Vince was going to turn out to be. They took a gamble on him and it turned out great for them back then. I dont think the Raps even knew they would be making the playoffs the season after largely due to the type of player Vince was.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

VC_15 said:


> The fact is when T-mac left Toronto, Vince carried his team to the 2nd round and was 10 seconds away from making it to the ECF. T-mac went to Orlando, and had arugably the same talent around him as Carter had, and he didn't pass the first round. Hell even with Yao ming he didn't pass the first round, yeh that guy is something.


1 playoff series win versus no playoff series wins. Not exactly David and Goliath.

Edit: I guess he's got 2 now.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

Hbwoy said:


> Ah! but then you could also use the injury arguement for Vince. Up until last season his teams have always been in the playoff hunt, if not for injuries he would have had much more playoff games. And regarding the playoff stats they are pretty much comparable, same as the career stats (skewed or not skewed).


Yes. The Raptors competed in the playoffs w/o Carter in 2002 & lost to the Pistons in a 5th & deciding game in the 1st round. If Carter was healthy then the Raptors probably would have been a higher seed & would have gotten past the 1st round giving him more playoff games in his profile. TMac was relatively healthy when his Magic team won only 21 or so games. Carter would never let a team have such a pathetic season when he's healthy even w/ that supporting cast.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

VC_15 said:


> The fact is when T-mac left Toronto, Vince carried his team to the 2nd round and was 10 seconds away from making it to the ECF. T-mac went to Orlando, and had arugably the same talent around him as Carter had, and he didn't pass the first round. Hell even with Yao ming he didn't pass the first round, yeh that guy is something.




Didn't he also miss an important game to attend graduation? If so, him not making it to the ECF was well deserved.


Yao didn't start to get into his groove until this year. Houston lost to the mavs in 7 who had homecourt, that's not as bad as you make it seem.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

speedythief said:


> 1 playoff series win versus no playoff series wins. Not exactly David and Goliath.



I don't care if it's 1 playoff series win or not, when you have a 7'6 center arguably the best center in the game playing along side T-mac, they've must passed the first round, it's not like t-mac was with Alvin williams, Jerom Williams, and Morris Peterson.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Dee-Zy said:


> Didn't he also miss an important game to attend graduation? If so, him not making it to the ECF was well deserved.


No, he partied at UNC then flew out to play game 7.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Dee-Zy said:


> *Didn't he also miss an important game to attend graduation?* If so, him not making it to the ECF was well deserved.
> 
> 
> Yao didn't start to get into his groove until this year. Houston lost to the mavs in 7 who had homecourt, that's not as bad as you make it seem.



By saying this, you've showed me you know nothing about Vince.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> 1 playoff series win versus no playoff series wins. Not exactly David and Goliath.


If you are judging a player, dont you think his success in the post season counts. Its not as negligible as some make it out to be. For a guy who has been in the league 9 years, (6 for those who want to start his career with Orlando) thats pretty bad


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> No, he partied at UNC then flew out to play game 7.


Sorry but do you know how ignorant that sounds. Guy was a role model for getting an education and yet still gets nagged for it.


----------



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

VC_15 said:


> I don't care if it's 1 playoff series win or not, when you have a 7'6 center arguably the best center in the game playing along side T-mac, they've must passed the first round, it's not like t-mac was with Alvin williams, Jerom Williams, and Morris Peterson.


Don't compare those Raptors to those Rockets.

Compare those Knicks to those Mavericks.


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> If you are judging a player, dont you think his success in the post season counts. Its not as negligible as some make it out to be. For a guy who has been in the league 9 years, (6 for those who want to start his career with Orlando) thats pretty bad


So you're now making a case for Manu as the best?


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Hbwoy said:


> All this just tells me was Vince was the more NBA ready player. Doesnt it say a lot that they drafted a player that plays basically the same position as Tmac. But anyways that wasnt even the issue back then, no one knew what kind of player Vince was going to turn out to be. They took a gamble on him and it turned out great for them back then. I dont think the Raps even knew they would be making the playoffs the season after largely due to the type of player Vince was.




Not quite, Carter had his **edit*, before he even put his feet in toronto. He was pretty much touted as a superstar or atleast treated like one since his rookie season. It is right to say that the Toronto mismanagement had faith in Carter, but it's much more about how they didn't have faith in Tmac. That's the management's fault, they were too busy kissing Carter's **edit*. Tmac was more than nba ready after his first season.




edit: I'm not even attacking a member on this board!!!!!???!??!?!?!?!!! How is that inapropriate? :curse:


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> Sorry but do you know how ignorant that sounds. Guy was a role model for getting an education and yet still gets nagged for it.


We've had this one before, haven't we?

Graduating is great. Finishing you acedemic career is great. Putting on the robe and getting the degree in person isn't as important as game 7.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> Don't compare those Raptors to those Rockets.
> 
> Compare those Knicks to those Mavericks.


To the knicks credit, they were one of the best defensive teams in the league. And I might be wrong, werent the raptors the lower seed that year.


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Sorry but do you know how ignorant that sounds. Guy was a role model for getting an education and yet still gets nagged for it.


Attending a graduation ceremony and getting an education aren't the same thing.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

VC_15 said:


> By saying this, you've showed me you know nothing about Vince.



Of course, because my name doesn't have VC or 15 in it right?


----------



## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

speedythief said:


> No, he partied at UNC then flew out to play game 7.


He didn't party. He stayed a while for the after grad festivities. His main goal was to get his diploma & he was planning to go to that game. He arrived @ the game on time. People criticized him for being a good role model to kids. He had a decent game & unfortunately missed the final shot. Education was important to him. It's how he was raised. If he made that final shot the Raptors probably would have defeated the Bucks in the ECF & gone on to the finals. It was just a missed shot. The media put too much **** on the situation.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> We've had this one before, haven't we?
> 
> Graduating is great. Finishing you acedemic career is great. Putting on the robe and getting the degree in person isn't as important as game 7.


Dude one shot is all that seperates the Raps from making the finals. How many players are out partying before big games. Its not as bad as some of you try to make it out. He got back, still put up decent numbers unfortunately things didnt go their way. You can call Vince a lot of things, some he deserves it, but I'll never agree with anyone that says he was wrong for getting his degree that day.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> Attending a graduation ceremony and getting an education aren't the same thing.


Your point being, stop beating around the bushes, whats your stance on the issue. Was he right or wrong for attending the ceremony as you put it.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

cpawfan said:


> Attending a graduation ceremony and getting an education aren't the same thing.



Yeh your completley right. I mean a mother's wish of seing their kids graduating from Colleges/Universities , especially for the African American women, since huge chunk of the African American men go to prison, can be erased by a Basketball game, which he ended up going to and playing pretty well int it too.

I applaud you for your intelligence :clap:


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Dee-Zy said:


> Not quite, Carter had his **edit*, before he even put his feet in toronto. He was pretty much touted as a superstar or atleast treated like one since his rookie season. It is right to say that the Toronto mismanagement had faith in Carter, but it's much more about how they didn't have faith in Tmac. That's the management's fault, they were too busy kissing Carter's **edit*. Tmac was more than nba ready after his first season.


Arent you mistaking Jamison with Carter. Jamison was the highly touted one, no one back then ever thought Carter would ever be better than Jamison. Up till today Jamison is still regarded as one of the best college players ever.


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

VC_15 said:


> Yeh your completley right. I mean a mother's wish of seing their kids graduating from Colleges/Universities , especially for the African American women, since huge chunk of the African American men go to prison, can be erased by a Basketball game, which he ended up going to and playing pretty well int it too.
> 
> I applaud you for your intelligence :clap:




I'm starting to wonder who actually got an education here, perhaps common sense is not as common as it ought to be.


----------



## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> Yeh your completley right. I mean a mother's wish of seing their kids graduating from Colleges/Universities , especially for the African American women, since huge chunk of the African American men go to prison, can be erased by a Basketball game, which he ended up going to and playing pretty well int it too.
> 
> I applaud you for your intelligence :clap:



Not to mention his brother, who spent some years in prison.


----------



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

VC_15 said:


> Yeh your completley right. I mean a mother's wish of seing their kids graduating from Colleges/Universities , especially for the African American women, since huge chunk of the African American men go to prison, can be erased by a Basketball game, which he ended up going to and playing pretty well int it too.
> 
> I applaud you for your intelligence :clap:


You're talking about Vince finishing a bird degree by correspondance.


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Hbwoy said:


> Arent you mistaking Jamison with Carter. Jamison was the highly touted one, no one back then ever thought Carter would ever be better than Jamison. Up till today Jamison is still regarded as one of the best college players ever.




that's true, but I Carter was touted and treated as a superstar by Toronto, nevertheless, since the beginning. The point is that Tmac was still undermined for Carter by the Toronto staff wrongfully. Not because he wasn't as good nor because he wasn't ready.


----------



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> Dude one shot is all that seperates the Raps from making the finals. How many players are out partying before big games. Its not as bad as some of you try to make it out. He got back, still put up decent numbers unfortunately things didnt go their way. You can call Vince a lot of things, some he deserves it, but I'll never agree with anyone that says he was wrong for getting his degree that day.


Conference finals. We're still only talking about a second round game.


----------



## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Dee-Zy said:


> that's true, but I Carter was touted and treated as a superstar by Toronto, nevertheless, since the beginning. The point is that Tmac was still undermined for Carter by the Toronto staff wrongfully. Not because he wasn't as good nor because he wasn't ready.



He was treated as a superstar because he was and he was better than T-mac at the time. If T-mac didn't have his ego, the chances of Toronto Getting to the finals would've been a lot better.


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Your point being, stop beating around the bushes, whats your stance on the issue. Was he right or wrong for attending the ceremony as you put it.


I have never cared about the issue. My point was that you had a logically incongruent statement.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

cpawfan said:


> Attending a graduation ceremony and getting an education aren't the same thing.


So what's the big deal? He got his diploma & made the game on time. If it wasn't for the simple fact that it was a game 7 then the media wouldn't have turned it into some questionable thing to make Carter look bad. Maybe the Raptors would have won that game if he didn't attend his grad ceremony. Maybe they still would have lost. There's no way of finding out. But it wasn't a bad decision that people make it out to be. I saw that game & it seemed as if Carter was showing no ill-effects of fatigue from the long flight anyways. Carter is not a psychic. How the hell is he supposed to know that the game was eventually going down w/ a 1 pt separation.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> You're talking about Vince finishing *a bird degree* by correspondance.


Dude are you serious. Oh well guess a college degree doesnt mean anything nowadays.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> I have never cared about the issue. My point was that you had a logically incongruent statement.


Ah sorry, didnt know my grammar was being judged on such a high level, I will definitely keep that in mind henceforth.


----------



## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> I don't care if it's 1 playoff series win or not, when you have a 7'6 center arguably the best center in the game playing along side T-mac, they've must passed the first round, it's not like t-mac was with Alvin williams, Jerom Williams, and Morris Peterson.


he lost one playoff series with yao ming, and it was against a 59 win maverick team and it was a 7 game series despite the rockets starting ryan bowen against dirk nowitzki. 





> Your point being, stop beating around the bushes, whats your stance on the issue. Was he right or wrong for attending the ceremony as you put it.


i know people who have to to miss graduation ceremonies for their BS, MS, and PhD to go work, there was no reason for vince to have to go to that. and its not difficult to get permission to attend a graduation a semester late


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

VC_15 said:


> Yeh your completley right. I mean a mother's wish of seing their kids graduating from Colleges/Universities , especially for the African American women, since huge chunk of the African American men go to prison, can be erased by a Basketball game, which he ended up going to and playing pretty well int it too.
> 
> I applaud you for your intelligence :clap:


Reading is fundamental. My post made no judgement on what Vince did or didn't do.


----------



## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Hbwoy said:


> Dude are you serious. Oh well guess a college degree doesnt mean anything nowadays.



T-mac should have never left the court to go the hospital with his wife for the delievering of his child. I mean, he can see his child after the game, right?


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> Conference finals. We're still only talking about a second round game.


They would have dismantled whoever they faced after that point to get to the finals


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Ok, I was gonna be quiet about this, but as much as education is important, any educated moron will tell you that receiving the education is much more important than the piece of paper you receive or any ceremony that provides closure to the narrative. Not only that, as much as education can be important to him or to his mother, the ceremonial discourse of graduation is peanuts BECAUSE the important thing is the education, not some traditional ceremony. The ceremony is a symbol of the education, not the other way around.

and who the hell parties before an important game 7 of the playoffs? I'm sure players parties too but before a game 7? Call me ignorant, I highly doubt players would do that, I would expect them to have a higher IQ than that.


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Ah sorry, didnt know my grammar was being judged on such a high level, I will definitely keep that in mind henceforth.


Grammar, no
Logic, yes


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

cpawfan said:


> Reading is fundamental. My post made no judgement on what Vince did or didn't do.


Your post was a clear indication of trying to downgrade the importance of the ceremony .


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I Start Fires said:


> i know people who have to to miss graduation ceremonies for their BS, MS, and PhD to go work, there was no reason for vince to have to go to that. and its not difficult to get permission to attend a graduation a semester late


Look he has always said he made a promise to his mom that he would get that degree. Obviously he believed in his abilities to the point that it wouldnt be a distraction. Whats the big deal anyways, he didnt miss the game, he got there on time. It just seems people are just looking for excuses to bash the guy on that one issue. Was there really any noticeable difference in the way he played that game and all other games before that point.


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Hbwoy said:


> They would have dismantled whoever they faced after that point to get to the finals



Agreed


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Hbwoy said:


> Look he has always said he made a promise to his mom that he would get that degree. Obviously he believed in his abilities to the point that it wouldnt be a distraction. Whats the big deal anyways, he didnt miss the game, he got there on time. It just seems people are just looking for excuses to bash the guy on that one issue. Was there really any noticeable difference in the way he played that game and all other games before that point.




Last time I check, you still get your degree if you don't attend graduation.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

I Start Fires said:


> he lost one playoff series with yao ming, and it was against a 59 win maverick team and it was a 7 game series despite the rockets starting ryan bowen against dirk nowitzki.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You forget to mention how that Rockets team opened the series up w/ a 2-0 bang after beating the Mavs in Dallas for the 1st 2. 2 yrs previous to that his Orlando Magic team was in a similar situation being up 3-1 on the Detroit Pistons & they let that 1 slip away also.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Dee-Zy said:


> Ok, I was gonna be quiet about this, but as much as education is important, any educated moron will tell you that receiving the education is much more important than the piece of paper you receive or any ceremony that provides closure to the narrative. Not only that, as much as education can be important to him or to his mother, the ceremonial discourse of graduation is peanuts BECAUSE the important thing is the education, not some traditional ceremony. The ceremony is a symbol of the education, not the other way around.
> 
> and who the hell parties before an important game 7 of the playoffs? I'm sure players parties too but before a game 7? Call me ignorant, I highly doubt players would do that, I would expect them to have a higher IQ than that.


Was Shaq at the Kentucky Derby? If the answer is yes then thats another example.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Dee-Zy said:


> Last time I check, you still get your degree if you don't attend graduation.


What big difference would it have made if he had gone or not. No one knows what this guys do hours before the game. Only reason this is such a big deal is because for one its Vince he is easy to criticize, secondly they lost that game. If they had won that game, every one would praising him as a role model for millions of kids.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

neoxsupreme said:


> You forget to mention how that Rockets team opened the series up w/ a 2-0 bang after beating the Mavs in Dallas for the 1st 2. 2 yrs previous to that his Orlando Magic team was in a similar situation being up 3-1 on the Detroit Pistons & they let that 1 slip away also.


Ssssh!! there is absolutely no logic in those arguements


----------



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> They would have dismantled whoever they faced after that point to get to the finals


The Raptors were 1-3 against the Bucks that year.


----------



## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Dee-Zy said:


> Ok, I was gonna be quiet about this, but as much as education is important, any educated moron will tell you that receiving the education is much more important than the piece of paper you receive or any ceremony that provides closure to the narrative. Not only that, as much as education can be important to him or to his mother, the ceremonial discourse of graduation is peanuts BECAUSE the important thing is the education, not some traditional ceremony. The ceremony is a symbol of the education, not the other way around.
> 
> and who the hell parties before an important game 7 of the playoffs? I'm sure players parties too but before a game 7? Call me ignorant, I highly doubt players would do that, I would expect them to have a higher IQ than that.



Are you serious? if getting the diploma was meaningless than why do Colleges and Universities make ceremonies for it? You can get your education from age 5 to before you die, but parents raise their kids for that moment so they can see their kids getting their diplomas and it makes them feel like they've accomplished something. And you obviously don't know anything about a College ceremonial party, so it's uslless to argue with you about that.


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

VC_15 said:


> Your post was a clear indication of trying to downgrade the importance of the ceremony .


Nope, try again.

It was a clear *statement* that getting an education is not the same as attending the ceremony. I'm not attempting to debates the merits of the ceremony one way or the other.


----------



## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

Dee-Zy said:


> and who the hell parties before an important game 7 of the playoffs? I'm sure players parties too but before a game 7? Call me ignorant, I highly doubt players would do that, I would expect them to have a higher IQ than that.


Speedy thief gave you that. It is not known that he even partied before the game. That was news to me too b/c that's not how I remember the story.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> The Raptors were 1-3 against the Bucks that year.


Would you agree that the Raps were evenly matched with the Sixers that year. We all know what happened with the Bucks and Sixers. Now its all hypotheticals from here on, but I believe the Raps would have given the Bucks a run for their money in the playoffs that year.


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

VC_15 said:


> Are you serious? if getting the diploma was meaningless than why do Colleges and Universities make ceremonies for it? You can get your education from age 5 to before you die, but parents raise their kids for that moment so they can see their kids getting their diplomas and it makes them feel like they've accomplished something. And you obviously don't know anything about a College ceremonial party, so it's uslless to argue with you about that.




How old are you?


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

neoxsupreme said:


> Speedy thief gave you that. It is not known that he even partied before the game. That was news to me too b/c that's not how I remember the story.



sure


----------



## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Dee-Zy said:


> How old are you?



Old enough to understand the importance of recieving a College Degree.


----------



## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

I'm bored, last few comments,

If you are to believe that a ceremonial event based on tradition, yes tradition, the same reasons why there are wars between people who don't even really know why they have hatred against each other, is more important or as important as the education you receive, you are probably the same guy who will believe that high school prom is more important than to attend college, if that's the case you are right, arguing with you IS useless.

Receiving a college education is not even close to receiving a piece of paper. Unless you understand that I don't really think you do know how important it is to receive a degree. When people talk about receing a degree or graduating, they are talking about the life experience and the education they received within those years, not the piece of paper.


and the bottom line is, Tmac >> Carter.

I'm out
GHOST.


----------



## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

neoxsupreme said:


> You forget to mention how that Rockets team opened the series up w/ a 2-0 bang after beating the Mavs in Dallas for the 1st 2. 2 yrs previous to that his Orlando Magic team was in a similar situation being up 3-1 on the Detroit Pistons & they let that 1 slip away also.


you also forgot that the rockets as a whole were a better road team that year than a home team, not just tmac. you also forgot that the rockets won those first to games by over achieving, considering most people had the mavs winning in 5 or 6. you also forgot the the games we lost were also the games where yao found himself in foul trouble. you also forgot that we got beat mostly due to the inability of bob sura, david wesly, and jon barry to defend the back court. you also forgot that tmac was scoring and dishing the same in every game we won and lost. the losses were hardly a matter of tmac choking.

but i guess basketball is only a team game when you arent hating on players.


----------



## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> Are you serious? if getting the diploma was meaningless than why do Colleges and Universities make ceremonies for it? You can get your education from age 5 to before you die, but parents raise their kids for that moment so they can see their kids getting their diplomas and it makes them feel like they've accomplished something. And you obviously don't know anything about a College ceremonial party, so it's uslless to argue with you about that.


i know my dad got a high school diploma, BS, MS, and PhD and didnt attend one graduation because he was never around since he always had to work in another city.

i also know my sister is graduating in the summer but not attending her graduation until either the winter or next spring.


----------



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> Would you agree that the Raps were evenly matched with the Sixers that year. We all know what happened with the Bucks and Sixers. Now its all hypotheticals from here on, but I believe the Raps would have given the Bucks a run for their money in the playoffs that year.


So are they going to give them "a run for their money" or are they going to "dismantle" them? You've said both.


----------



## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

I Start Fires said:


> you also forgot that the rockets as a whole were a better road team that year than a home team, not just tmac. you also forgot that the rockets won those first to games by over achieving, considering most people had the mavs winning in 5 or 6. you also forgot the the games we lost were also the games where yao found himself in foul trouble. you also forgot that we got beat mostly due to the inability of bob sura, david wesly, and jon barry to defend the back court. you also forgot that tmac was scoring and dishing the same in every game we won and lost. the losses were hardly a matter of tmac choking.
> 
> but i guess basketball is only a team game when you arent hating on players.



You also forget that when teams lose, their superstars gets the blame. No body is going to blame how jon barry could not defend the back court. Same with vince. no matter how good he plays and the team loses, he'll be the first to blame. Basically, this is the truth and you have to accept it, Dallas were not a defensive team and till now i don't think they're a defensive team, with Yao and T-mac on the same and up 2-0 to not pass the first round is just ridiculous. If he is a superstar , he should not allow his team to lose after leading 2-0, that's why kobe is being crushed from the media right now.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> So are they going to give them "a run for their money" or are they going to "dismantle" them? You've said both.


Like I said its hypotheticals from here on. Gotta give the Bucks some credit though, dismantled might have been an exaggeration. I still believe the Raps would have won the series though


----------



## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

I Start Fires said:


> you also forgot that the rockets as a whole were a better road team that year than a home team, not just tmac. you also forgot that the rockets won those first to games by over achieving, considering most people had the mavs winning in 5 or 6. you also forgot the the games we lost were also the games where yao found himself in foul trouble. you also forgot that we got beat mostly due to the inability of bob sura, david wesly, and jon barry to defend the back court. you also forgot that tmac was scoring and dishing the same in every game we won and lost. the losses were hardly a matter of tmac choking.
> 
> but i guess basketball is only a team game when you arent hating on players.


Excuses, excuses :nonono:. Whenever a team finds itself w/ a significant lead in a playoff series, they've got to close it out, overachieving or not. That's how you win as a lower seed. [sarcasm]Anyways, you've got a great leader on that team in T-Mac.[/sarcasm]


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

VC_15 said:


> You also forget that when teams lose, their superstars gets the blame. No body is going to blame how jon barry could not defend the back court. Same with vince. no matter how good he plays and the team loses, he'll be the first to blame. Basically, this is the truth and you have to accept it, Dallas were not a defensive team and till now i don't think they're a defensive team, with Yao and T-mac on the same and up 2-0 to not pass the first round is just ridiculous. If he is a superstar , he should not allow his team to lose after leading 2-0, that's why kobe is being crushed from the media right now.


Kidd would get blamed first if the Nets lost


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

I Start Fires said:


> i know my dad got a high school diploma, BS, MS, and PhD and didnt attend one graduation because he was never around since he always had to work in another city.
> 
> i also know my sister is graduating in the summer but not attending her graduation until either the winter or next spring.


Dont want to turn this into a racial issue, but I'll just put it this way different strokes for different folks


----------



## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

I Start Fires said:


> i know my dad got a high school diploma, BS, MS, and PhD and didnt attend one graduation because he was never around since he always had to work in another city.
> 
> i also know my sister is graduating in the summer but not attending her graduation until either the winter or next spring.



Congratulations to your dad, and this could be one of the cases where getting the degree is not very important to someone. i don't know if it was important for your grandparents or not, but i am pretty sure most parents would like to attend their kid's graduation.

I know i had to come back from my hometown to attend my graduation, and all my parents were there.


----------



## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

Hbwoy said:


> Like I said its hypotheticals from here on. Gotta give the Bucks some credit though, dismantled might have been an exaggeration. *I still believe the Raps would have won the series* though


As did I.


----------



## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> You also forget that when teams lose, their superstars gets the blame. No body is going to blame how jon barry could not defend the back court. Same with vince. no matter how good he plays and the team loses, he'll be the first to blame. Basically, this is the truth and you have to accept it, Dallas were not a defensive team and till now i don't think they're a defensive team, with Yao and T-mac on the same and up 2-0 to not pass the first round is just ridiculous. If he is a superstar , he should not allow his team to lose after leading 2-0, that's why kobe is being crushed from the media right now.


so carter this year > kobe this this year?


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> Kidd would get blamed first if the Nets lost


Both you and I know thats untrue, and there are tons of articles from this season alone, heck once the search function comes on again, the Nets board is another great example of such. Vince GETS the blame.


----------



## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> Congratulations to your dad, and this could be one of the cases where getting the degree is not very important to someone. i don't know if it was important for your grandparents or not, but i am pretty sure most parents would like to attend their kid's graduation.
> 
> I know i had to come back from my hometown to attend my graduation, and all my parents were there.


so why not have the ceremony a semester later?


----------



## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

Hbwoy said:


> Both you and I know thats untrue, and there are tons of articles from this season alone, heck once the search function comes on again, the Nets board is another great example of such. Vince GETS the blame.


VC does get most of the blame.


----------



## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

I Start Fires said:


> so carter this year > kobe this this year?



No, kobe does not have Yao Ming to his side. Kobe carried the whole laker team on his back to the playoffs, i wasn't even expecting him to make the playoffs with this roster. IF he had Yao Ming, i am pretty sure you would see the Lakers in the ECF.


----------



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> Like I said its hypotheticals from here on. Gotta give the Bucks some credit though, dismantled might have been an exaggeration. I still believe the Raps would have won the series though


And that somehow serves as proof that Carter is better than McGrady?


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Both you and I know thats untrue, and there are tons of articles from this season alone, heck once the search function comes on again, the Nets board is another great example of such. Vince GETS the blame.


No, Vince gets the blame because people hate him. Something along those lines was stated earlier in the thread. That has nothing to do with being the "superstar" on the team.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> No, kobe does not have Yao Ming to his side. Kobe carried the whole laker team on his back to the playoffs, i wasn't even expecting him to make the playoffs with this roster. IF he had Yao Ming, i am pretty sure you would see the Lakers in the *ECF.*


You mean WCF.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

neoxsupreme said:


> You mean WCF.



yeh my mistake.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> No, kobe does not have Yao Ming to his side. Kobe carried the whole laker team on his back to the playoffs, i wasn't even expecting him to make the playoffs with this roster. IF he had Yao Ming, i am pretty sure you would see the Lakers in the ECF.


so why does that magic-detroit series matter at all? lamar odom was better than anyone tmac had then. people still use that to call him a loser though. if he is a loser for that, kobe is much more of a loser now, he had a HOF coach, lamar odom and a front line that was dominating the suns, and couldnt pull out a win. kobe is still clearly better this year than carter has ever been though.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

I Start Fires said:


> *so why does that magic-detroit series matter at all?* lamar odom was better than anyone tmac had then. people still use that to call him a loser though. if he is a loser for that, kobe is much more of a loser now, he had a HOF coach, lamar odom and a front line that was dominating the suns, and couldnt pull out a win. kobe is still clearly better this year than carter has ever been though.




When did i say it did?, i am focusing on last year's team, with Yao , Mike James, Wesley etc....


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> When did i say it did?, i am focusing on last year's team, with Yao , Mike James, Wesley etc....


hmm, alright it was neox who brought up the pistons series. then what i said still applies to him. 

it still doesnt change the fact kobe found himself in the same position with the suns tmac did with the mavs. they were both playing better regular season teams and they both played great series. when they roles players did what they were suppose to for the rockets, like hitting open shots and getting back on defense, the rockets won. when the role players on the lakers did what they were suppose they won. its almost like you need an entire team to win a game.... weird. carter is still clearly not as good as kobe.

heres a question for you, if the nets lose this series after a game one blow out on the road, is it all carters fault? if the media and some fans blame carter, will you agree? or do you only like to blame the superstar when you dont like them and only defend the one you are a homer for?


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

I Start Fires said:


> hmm, alright it was neox who brought up the pistons series. then what i said still applies to him.
> 
> it still doesnt change the fact kobe found himself in the same position with the suns tmac did with the mavs. they were both playing better regular season teams and they both played great series. when they roles players did what they were suppose to for the rockets, like hitting open shots and getting back on defense, the rockets won. when the role players on the lakers did what they were suppose they won. its almost like you need an entire team to win a game.... weird. carter is still clearly not as good as kobe.
> 
> heres a question for you, if the nets lose this series after a game one blow out on the road, is it all carters fault? if the media and some fans blame carter, will you agree? or do you only like to blame the superstar when you dont like them and only defend the one you are a homer for?



Suns were a better regular season team but that doesn't change the fact that when the Lakers started playing team ball, they looked and played better than phoenix, if they had done that in the regular season, thing would be the opposite, you never know. Kobe is better than Vince and there's no question or doubt about that. I don't recall Mcgrady scoring 81 points and 62 through three quarters by outscoring an entire team?

If the Nets lose this series, you better count on Vince getting most of the blame. That's just the way it is . If he had played bad then yeh he deserves it, otherwise he doesn't. Btw, i like T-mac, i have his old shoes and his old orlando jersey. But for the last two years, he has become a complete jump shooter, and all he does is just wait for pick and rolls to shoot jumpers. I just can't understand how he can better than Vince playing like that.


----------



## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> If the Nets lose this series, you better count on Vince getting most of the blame. That's just the way it is . If he had played bad then yeh he deserves it, otherwise he doesn't. Btw, i like T-mac, i have his old shoes and his old orlando jersey. But for the last two years, he has become a complete jump shooter, and all he does is just wait for pick and rolls to shoot jumpers. I just can't understand how he can better than Vince playing like that.


im not asking if _they_ will blame, im asking if you willl. because _they_ arent the ones arguing carter is better than tmac because he lost a playoff series right now, _you_ are.


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## Cambridgeshire (Jan 15, 2005)

Healthy McGrady, easily.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

I Start Fires said:


> im not asking if _they_ will blame, im asking if you willl. because _they_ arent the ones arguing carter is better than tmac because he lost a playoff series right now, _you_ are.



I will definitely blame him if doesn't play well , i am one of his fans that gets on his case for not stepping up. For example, I criticized his play on game 2 of how he only took 11 shots and just being passive and watching every one play.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

A Healthy Tracy McGrady is better in every aspect of the game than Vince, although I do agree Vince has had a better season than McGrady.

Both great players when focused, but i'd take McGrady.


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## terminalman (May 12, 2006)

The problem with Tracy is his health conditions. Without all those health problems, he can match-up easily with his cousin Vince.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

terminalman said:


> The problem with Tracy is his health conditions. Without all those health problems, he can match-up easily with his cousin Vince.


Tracy without healthy problems , can matchup with anyone.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> No, Vince gets the blame because people hate him. Something along those lines was stated earlier in the thread. That has nothing to do with being the "superstar" on the team.


And what about the articles that somehow have Vince being blamed for the losses, I rarely or should I say never see Kidd getting the brunt of the blame. Thats not on the nets forum is it


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> And that somehow serves as proof that Carter is better than McGrady?


I honestly dont know where you are getting this from. Maybe you should read up on my earlier post, two very similar players. Personally for me its a toss up between the two.


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> And what about the articles that somehow have Vince being blamed for the losses, I rarely or should I say never see Kidd getting the brunt of the blame. Thats not on the nets forum is it


You're talking about individual games vs a playoff series. Almost any player can be blamed at various points during a season for a loss.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> You're talking about individual games vs a playoff series. Almost any player can be blamed at various points during a season for a loss.


Well then trace it back to the pacers series. Even when Mr Kidd was being exposed by AJ on the defensive end, how many articles were out there calling for his head and compare that to the treatment Vince recieved during the two losses. Thanks!


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Well then trace it back to the pacers series. Even when Mr Kidd was being exposed by AJ on the defensive end, how many articles were out there calling for his head and compare that to the treatment Vince recieved during the two losses. Thanks!


Again you are still talking apples and oranges. Game by game is different than the series. If the Nets had lost that series, the over whelming theme would have been Kidd failed. However, they won, so all you are left with is individual game analysis.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Hbwoy said:


> LOL @ this thread, I have seen a healthy Tmac and have seen a healthy Vince. *Anyways Tmac has always been a regular season monster no doubt, unfortunately that doesnt translate to the games where it matters most* and yes my friends, that is the true judge of a player.


Playoffs, career:

*Tracy McGrady:* 29.8 PPG (44% FG) / 6.8 RPG / 5.8 APG

*Vince Carter:* 25.9 PPG (40% FG) / 6.8 RPG / 5.2 APG

It's amazing that people still try to go the "McGrady doesn't show up for big games" route. He's been one of the best playoff performers of his generation. He simply hasn't had tremendous teams around him, which explains his lack of playoff series wins.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> I honestly dont know where you are getting this from. Maybe you should read up on my earlier post, two very similar players. Personally for me its a toss up between the two.


Yeah, but I don't believe you.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

This topic isn't even possible without McGrady's back flaring up this season. Therefore, since Vince can apparently only be compared favorably to McGrady during one of Vince's better years and one of McGrady's worst, I'd have to say that Tracy is obviously the better player. Isn't that only logical? These two players haven't been on the same level in years. Vince Carter is much closer to Ray Allen (honestly, is he even better than Ray?) than he is to Tracy McGrady, who is in turn much closer to Kobe than he is to Carter.


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## jibikao (Nov 14, 2004)

I think T-MAC's career is going downhill big time. What's up with his back? Is he going to be like Grant "Glass" Hill?


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

VC_15 said:


> I will definitely blame him if doesn't play well , i am one of his fans that gets on his case for not stepping up. For example, I criticized his play on game 2 of how he only took 11 shots and just being passive and watching every one play.


if he averages 30/7/7 and shoots 44% but the nets still cant win, is it his fault?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> Yeah, but I don't believe you.


Believe it or not, I love Tmac. Have always said he has a similar game to Vince, if Vince is my fav player why wouldnt I like the next best thing to him.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Playoffs, career:
> 
> *Tracy McGrady:* 29.8 PPG (44% FG) / 6.8 RPG / 5.8 APG
> 
> ...


The 3-1 lead against the Pistons and the 2-0 lead against the Mavs all come to mind. Both with Tmac making some very bold statements as to why he had those series in the bag.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> Believe it or not, I love Tmac. Have always said he has a similar game to Vince, if Vince is my fav player why wouldnt I like the next best thing to him.


You love both guys, I hate both guys, but that's not what this is about. It's about who is better, more specifically if Vince is better.

So you're saying its even, Vince isn't better?


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

Hbwoy said:


> The 3-1 lead against the Pistons and the 2-0 lead against the Mavs all come to mind. Both with Tmac making some very bold statements as to why he had those series in the bag.



well that pistons team was better than this phoenix team that beat the lakers from 3-1.....

and that mavs team was one win away from having another 60 win season which the rockets took the first two...


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Hbwoy said:


> The 3-1 lead against the Pistons and the 2-0 lead against the Mavs all come to mind.


You are also impressed at how McGrady gave his team a chance to beat a far more talented team in two different seasons?

Good point. I should have noted that myself. On top of being one of the best playoff performers of his generation, he's also nearly equalized major talent differences between his team and superior ones.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Wow, someone actually brought up last season's Rockets-Mavs series as a way to _slight_ McGrady?

Now that's amazing. I haven't seen a perimeter player thoroughly dominate both ends of the court like Tracy did in that series since The Bald One.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> You love both guys, I hate both guys, but that's not what this is about. It's about who is better, more specifically if Vince is better.
> 
> So you're saying its even, Vince isn't better?


Even if I said Vince was better, it would be like screaming during a storm. What I am interested in learning would be the winning % between both players. Actually I dont need that, I know Vince for sure has won more in his career


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> Wow, someone actually brought up last season's Rockets-Mavs series as a way to _slight_ McGrady?
> 
> Now that's amazing. I haven't seen a perimeter player thoroughly dominate both ends of the court like Tracy did in that series since The Bald One.


How is that slighting him? Yes or no, didnt he make a statement that this way the year I finally make it out of the first round.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> How is that slighting him? Yes or no, didnt he make a statement that this way the year I finally make it out of the first round.


What does that have to do with the Rockets-Mavs series? And McGrady still played admirably in that infamous Detroit series from a few years ago. He said something prematurely that he shouldn't have said, and his team wasn't able to finish the Pistons off. Kobe's Lakers just lost a 3-1 lead, too, so that goes to show that it's something that can simply happen. As an individual player, there isn't much more McGrady could have done in that series. That goes for the Mavs series as well.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> What does that have to do with the Rockets-Mavs series? And McGrady still played admirably in that infamous Detroit series from a few years ago. He said something prematurely that he shouldn't have said, and his team wasn't able to finish the Pistons off. Kobe's Lakers just lost a 3-1 lead, too, so that goes to show that it's something that can simply happen. As an individual player, there isn't much more McGrady could have done in that series. That goes for the Mavs series as well.


Not disagreeing with that, but dont you think those comments fueled the opposition.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> Even if I said Vince was better, it would be like screaming during a storm. What I am interested in learning would be the winning % between both players. Actually I dont need that, I know Vince for sure has won more in his career


This is why I said I didn't believe you. You say it's a "toss-up" to avoid arguing with anyone or taking sides, then when pressed you try and go in another direction entirely.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Not disagreeing with that, but dont you think those comments fueled the opposition.


I'm not saying it wasn't a mistake, but I don't think it's that big a deal. I never thought it was. McGrady was excited about he and his team doing so well against a team that was favored to win the series, and also to be on the cusp of reaching the second round, so he let it be known. I think we can forgive him for a small moment of exuberance, don't you think?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Hbwoy said:


> How is that slighting him? Yes or no, didnt he make a statement that this way the year I finally make it out of the first round.


As I recall, he was asked a very specific question like, "If you advance, how will it feel?" or somesuch. And his response was taken out of context, as though he made it spontaneously, rather than in response to a question about how he _would_ feel _if_ he advanced.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> This is why I said I didn't believe you. You say it's a "toss-up" to avoid arguing with anyone or taking sides, then when pressed you try and go in another direction entirely.


I refer back to the screaming in the storm statement


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> I refer back to the screaming in the storm statement


I think maybe you're embarassed about the kind of support your argument will get from other like-minded posters.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> I think maybe you're embarassed about the kind of support your argument will get from other like-minded posters.


Umm I dont think am the kind that will be phased by what others have to say or think


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

yikes

only on this website would this be discussed like its actually a question


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> Umm I dont think am the kind that will be phased by what others have to say or think


Which is why your are holding back your opinion?

This _is_ a debate thread.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> yikes
> 
> only on this website would this be discussed like its actually a question


These are the same people that actually believe that Vince is better than Wade, so this doesn't surprise me.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> Which is why your are holding back your opinion?
> 
> This _is_ a debate thread.


Then my response is Vince > Tmac as far as am concerned


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> These are the same people that actually believe that Vince is better than Wade, so this doesn't surprise me.


Because Wade clearly outplayed Vince during the playoffs and oh yeah their four or so meetings this year.


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## notting_hill (Dec 18, 2005)

Wow, ten pages of argument.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Because Wade clearly outplayed Vince during the playoffs and oh yeah their four or so meetings this year.


Yes, Wade is currently outplaying Vince in the playoffs, since you're wondering. And I don't put much stock into a sample size of four regular season games.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Spriggan said:


> These are the same people that actually believe that Vince is better than Wade, so this doesn't surprise me.


I think you'll find a lot of people use phrases like "when he's on" to covertly describe Vince as _the_ premier NBA player.



Hbwoy said:


> Then my response is Vince > Tmac as far as am concerned


I know. You never thought it was toss up. You're side of the argument is just a hell of an uphill battle. I know you'd be hard pressed to pick any other active player for one game or even one series.

True or false: "when he's on" there is no player better than Carter.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

When healthy, Kobe, Mac, Bron and Wade are the top tier of swingmen.

Pierce, Melo and Carter are on the next tier, usually (outside of career seasons).


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> Yes, Wade is currently outplaying Vince in the playoffs, since you're wondering. And I don't put much stock into a sample size of four regular season games.


Dude for the stat lovers, I have a sample of it in my sig, if you call that outplaying well...Now you are right on the four game sample being too small but if Vince had averaged say 30 ppg this season, the comparisons wouldnt even exist. What people fail to realize is you are comparing two players who have different roles on their team. How can Vince average so many points (and yes thats what it usually boils down to) playing next to Kidd, RJ and Nenad. Wade and Shaq basically carry the offense of the Heat, and dont give me Walker, Williams, Posey thingy, those guys are highly inconsistent.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> True or false: "when he's on" there is no player better than Carter.


Definitely, but even when he is 'off', he is still good for 20-25 points, a couple of rebounds and a couple of assits. I dont see anything bad about that.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> Dude for the stat lovers, I have a sample of it in my sig, if you call that outplaying well...Now you are right on the four game sample being too small but if Vince had averaged say 30 ppg this season, the comparisons wouldnt even exist. What people fail to realize is you are comparing two players who have different roles on their team. *How can Vince average so many points (and yes thats what it usually boils down to) playing next to Kidd, RJ and Nenad. Wade and Shaq basically carry the offense of the Heat, and dont give me Walker, Williams, Posey thingy, those guys are highly inconsistent.*


Who takes more shots, Vince or Wade?

http://www.nba.com/statistics/playe...d=N&yearsExp=-1&sortOrder=3&splitDD=All Teams


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Am still waiting for one of the stat guys to help me out with the win % between the two players. Or let me guess, thats not a good way of judging the two


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> Definitely, but even when he is 'off', he is still good for 20-25 points, a couple of rebounds and a couple of assits. I dont see anything bad about that.


Ok.

So most of the time, your argument isn't Carter > T-Mac, it's Carter > NBA.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> Ok.
> 
> So most of the time, your argument isn't Carter > T-Mac, it's Carter > NBA.


So you dont think that any top 10 talent when they are 'on' cant be the best player in the league at that given time or point.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Hbwoy said:


> Am still waiting for one of the stat guys to help me out with the win % between the two players. Or let me guess, thats not a good way of judging the two


Depends on whether we're talking about a one-on-one league or whether a player's teammates matter to team success.

Would you consider Vince Carter a significantly worse player if he were the exact same player but on a terrible team like the Knicks or Blazers? Or does winning percentage only matter when it favours Carter?


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> So you dont think that any top 10 talent when they are 'on' cant be the best player in the league at that given time or point.


You want to go that way?

Take every NBA player, turn up the heat to the max, everyone is on fire.

Who is the best?


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> Who takes more shots, Vince or Wade?
> 
> http://www.nba.com/statistics/playe...d=N&yearsExp=-1&sortOrder=3&splitDD=All Teams


Good arguement, Wade also averages more Ft's. The guy plays within his limitations, hence he maximizes his skill on the court. Vince till this day till makes some questionable decisions on the court.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Dude for the stat lovers, I have a sample of it in my sig, if you call that outplaying well...Now you are right on the four game sample being too small but if Vince had averaged say 30 ppg this season, the comparisons wouldnt even exist. What people fail to realize is you are comparing two players who have different roles on their team. How can Vince average so many points (and yes thats what it usually boils down to) playing next to Kidd, RJ and Nenad. Wade and Shaq basically carry the offense of the Heat, and dont give me Walker, Williams, Posey thingy, those guys are highly inconsistent.


I thought you were talking about Vince and Wade head-to-head in the playoffs, not overall, since you brought up their four regular season meetings. Besides, their cumulative playoff stats so far are close enough to basically be a wash - certainly not enough of a difference and not enough games to properly judge anything except that both are having nice post-seasons.

Vince is a great player, and I like him, but I don't see how he's better than Wade when Wade simply produces much more and has more of an impact on his team. During the regular season, their production wasn't even close, even taking into account possessions and pace and such like PER does.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> You want to go that way?
> 
> Take every NBA player, turn up the heat to the max, everyone is on fire.
> 
> Who is the best?


LOL you know my answer is Vince


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Depends on whether we're talking about a one-on-one league or whether a player's teammates matter to team success.
> 
> Would you consider Vince Carter a significantly worse player if he were the exact same player but on a terrible team like the Knicks or Blazers? Or does winning percentage only matter when it favours Carter?


Its not like Vince hasnt had crappy teammates you know. Tmac isnt the only one that has had to play with bad teammates.

The other part of your statement is hypothetical, we both dont know what would have happened if placed in that situation. What I do know is that Vince probably has the higher winning %, if not a very significant amount.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> I thought you were talking about Vince and Wade head-to-head in the playoffs, not overall, since you brought up their four regular season meetings. Besides, their cumulative playoff stats so far are close enough to basically be a wash - certainly not enough of a difference and not enough games to properly judge anything except that both are having nice post-seasons.
> 
> Vince is a great player, and I like him, but I don't see how he's better than Wade when Wade simply produces much more and has more of an impact on his team. During the regular season, their production wasn't even close, even taking into account possessions and pace and such like PER does.


Like I said, Wade plays within his own limitations. A very smart and crafty player but here's the question can Wade do everything Vince can do on the court and vice versa. Remember Vince is as good an off the ball player as any one in the league, Mr Wade doesnt have that aspect of his game on lock, and thats just one example.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> Like I said, Wade plays within his own limitations. A very smart and crafty player but here's the question can Wade do everything Vince can do on the court and vice versa. Remember Vince is as good an off the ball player as any one in the league, Mr Wade doesnt have that aspect of his game on lock, and thats just one example.


and that again for the millionth time with discussions of Vince is production vs. talent. Vince has the talent (otherwise known as potential) to do these things on the court, but the other players compared to him just flat out outproduce him without a doubt, and that is all that matters in the end 

what they do > what they *could* do


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Hbwoy said:


> The other part of your statement is hypothetical


Obviously. It illustrates that the player doesn't magically become more or less talented based on who you surround him with. Jordan wouldn't be a worse player if you surrounded him with high school players. But he sure wouldn't win any games in the NBA.



> What I do know is that Vince probably has the higher winning %, if not a very significant amount.


Well, based on things within the players' control (production), McGrady comes out ahead. I don't know how large the difference in _team_ winning percentages is (though I doubt it is significant) but I do know it's meaningless. Players don't control the talent level of the teammates put around them.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> and that again for the millionth time with discussions of Vince is production vs. talent. Vince has the talent (otherwise known as potential) to do these things on the court, but the other players compared to him just flat out outproduce him without a doubt, and that is all that matters in the end
> 
> what they do > what they *could* do


Why does he have to produce like Wade did, when he has guys on the team that also produce to a certain extent.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Like I said, Wade plays within his own limitations. A very smart and crafty player but here's the question can Wade do everything Vince can do on the court and vice versa. Remember Vince is as good an off the ball player as any one in the league, Mr Wade doesnt have that aspect of his game on lock, and thats just one example.


Wade certainly doesn't have the jumper and range that Vince does, but he slashes to the hoop like Vince Carter from back in the day. 

However, that's the only aspect of the game that Vince has over Wade, and Wade does numerous other things better (passing, ball-handling, slashing, defending). Wade's also a better scorer going by statistics, since he scores more and does it more efficiently, though Vince has more tools to work with on offense.

So what makes Vince better?


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Well, based on things within the players' control (production), McGrady comes out ahead. I don't know how large the difference in _team_ winning percentages is (though I doubt it is significant) but I do know it's meaningless. Players don't control the talent level of the teammates put around them.


Do you agree that the ultimate judge of a player is the success he has WITH his team. TD had a mediocre season stat wise, but still is considered one of the best players in the league, WHY maybe because his team happened to win 60 or so games. Now regarding Vince and Tmac, we could argue about who had the worse teams between the two.


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## Vinsane (Feb 27, 2005)

Damn right VC is better than McGrady


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> Wade certainly doesn't have the jumper and range that Vince does, but he slashes to the hoop like Vince Carter from back in the day.
> 
> However, that's the only aspect of the game that Vince has over Wade, and Wade does numerous other things better (passing, ball-handling, slashing, defending). Wade's also a better scorer going by statistics, since he scores more and does it more efficiently, though Vince has more tools to work with on offense.
> 
> So what makes Vince better?


Sigh* how many times am I going to say Vince didnt have to score 30 plus points a game for the Nets to win. He did that last season in their run to the playoffs. Two competely different situations. Wade definitely has better handles, and probably the better passer but everything else is pretty arguable, at least for me it is.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Sigh* how many times am I going to say Vince didnt have to score 30 plus points a game for the Nets to win. He did that last season in their run to the playoffs. Two competely different situations. Wade definitely has better handles, and probably the better passer but everything else is pretty arguable, at least for me it is.


Vince doesn't have to score 30+ points for the Nets to win, true, but why does he have to not score 30+ points so inefficiently?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Spriggan said:


> Vince doesn't have to score 30+ points for the Nets to win, true, but why does he have to not score 30+ points so inefficiently?


Beats me, dude still throws up some questionable shots on the court. Whilst Dwayne Wade is probably the player that plays with the most control in the whole league. But even with all the 'craziness' in Vince's game, his TS% and eFg% isnt bad at all.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

Vince was 20th in the league in PER, and 24th in efficiency this season

and people are talking about him with top 5 players in the league? Its laughable


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> Vince was 20th in the league in PER, and 24th in efficiency this season
> 
> and people are talking about him with top 5 players in the league? Its laughable


Did you even read what I said about his role on the Nets


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Hbwoy said:


> Do you agree that the ultimate judge of a player is the success he has WITH his team.


No. The ultimate measure of a player is how much he helps his team attempt to win games, via his production and defense.



> TD had a mediocre season stat wise, but still is considered one of the best players in the league, WHY


Because he has an established elite performance level, was injured this season and still produced a lot while playing excellent defense.



> Now regarding Vince and Tmac, we could argue about who had the worse teams between the two.


We could, but it would be pointless. Team success is the ultimate measure of teams, not players.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> Did you even read what I said about his role on the Nets


His role?

His team has 3 players. He has a tremendous role. He takes a lot of shots and handles the ball an awful lot, especially at the end of games. 

You saying he has less chances on the court than these other players is proposterous

Wade has many teammates who need the ball and do things on the court- Jwill, Shaq, Posey, Walker, Haslem, Payton, Zo. And you are saying he has a chance to do more than a player who has a 3 player team? I think you are talking out of your a** to try to come up with an excuse why Carter just doesnt produce like the top players in the nba produce game after game


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Wow Minstrel, I dont even know where to start on your post. Since it probably will just lead to more rambling, I'll just keep it short, I disagree


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> LOL you know my answer is Vince


So it boils down to personal preference?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> His role?
> 
> His team has 3 players. He has a tremendous role. He takes a lot of shots and handles the ball an awful lot, especially at the end of games.
> 
> ...


You mentioned EFF and PER, well go through that list and see how many Nets players made it (most especially the big 3) and compare that with the Heat and how many players on the Heat made that list. 3 player team huh? Ever heard of Nenad Kristic, maybe you should check the numbers he put up in the second half of the season, of course those things are meaningless to you. You only pick and choose whatever you feel sounds right to you.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> So it boils down to personal preference?


BINGO!!!!!


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> BINGO!!!!!


And you don't think that invalidates your argument?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

speedythief said:


> And you don't think that invalidates your argument?


But I already said I could care less what others think or say about my opinion. I certainly no I wont be changing anyone's opinion on Vince, and vice versa


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> You mentioned EFF and PER, well go through that list and see how many Nets players made it (most especially the big 3) and compare that with the Heat and how many players on the Heat made that list. 3 player team huh? Ever heard of Nenad Kristic, maybe you should check the numbers he put up in the second half of the season, of course those things are meaningless to you. You only pick and choose whatever you feel sounds right to you.


yes they are a 3 player team. That is why all 3 players are in the rankings. They are all good players. On a 3 player team, the players need to be to have a solid team

as for Kristic, he is a role player. 13.5 and 6.5. (Jwill averages 14 with 5 assists). Nothing more to say about him. How overrated he has become as of late. 

Wade has a lot of teammates who need the ball and get stats. I dont see how you could argue he has more of a role than Carter does, who shoots and handles the ball a hell of a lot. Hell, he takes more shots yet averages less on a lot less %.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> yes they are a 3 player team. That is why all 3 players are in the rankings. They are all good players. On a 3 player team, the players need to be to have a solid team
> 
> as for Kristic, he is a role player. 13.5 and 6.5. (Jwill averages 14 with 5 assists). Nothing more to say about him. How overrated he has become as of late.
> 
> Wade has a lot of teammates who need the ball and get stats. I dont see how you could argue he has more of a role than Carter does, who shoots and handles the ball a hell of a lot. Hell, he takes more shots yet averages less on a lot less %.


How many assists did the big 3 as a whole average for the season?
How many points between the big 3 (since you claim Nenad is a role player?
How many rebounds between the 3?

Once again Vince's role on the Nets is not the same as that of Wade on the Heat. I dont get where you get Vince has the ball a whole lot in his hands, when Kidd, RJ and Nenad all also need the ball in their hands to an extent to be able to succeed on the court.

You could say in the 4th Vince gets the ball a lot, but he was number 1 in crunchtime points for the season. Thats your production for you.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Minstrel, if i ask you who's the better player Vince of last year ( with the Nets when he helped make the playoffs) or T-mac?

In the second half of last season, Vince was arguably playing the best ball in the entire Nba. This is when he was needed to score a lot , he needed to generate everything on the offensive end. This was a glimpse of what Vince Carter really is, if you don't believe that Vince took a back seat this year and Believed into that team game and that he didn't have to score that much then i don't know what to say.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

VC_15 said:


> Minstrel, if i ask you who's the better player Vince of last year ( with the Nets when he helped make the playoffs) or T-mac?
> 
> In the second half of last season, Vince was arguably playing the best ball in the entire Nba. This is when he was needed to score a lot , he needed to generate everything on the offensive end. This was a glimpse of what Vince Carter really is, if you don't believe that Vince took a back seat this year and Believed into that team game and that he didn't have to score that much then i don't know what to say.


JKidd had nothing to do with this IMO


































(sarcasm)


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

VC_15 said:


> Minstrel, if i ask you who's the better player Vince of last year ( with the Nets when he helped make the playoffs) or T-mac?


McGrady was better in 2004-05. Carter had a great second half, where he played well above his career norms, but McGrady was superior for the year and played better defense.



> This was a glimpse of what Vince Carter really is, if you don't believe that Vince took a back seat this year and Believed into that team game and that he didn't have to score that much then i don't know what to say.


That was a glimpse of Carter playing over his head for a short period of time.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> Once again Vince's role on the Nets is not the same as that of Wade on the Heat. I dont get where you get Vince has the ball a whole lot in his hands, when Kidd, RJ and Nenad all also need the ball in their hands to an extent to be able to succeed on the court.


Jwill, Posey, Shaq, Haslem, Walker, Payton dont need the ball in their hands?


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> McGrady was better in 2004-05. Carter had a great second half, where he played well above his career norms, but McGrady was superior for the year and played better defense.
> 
> I asked you about the second half, Vince was obviously better.
> 
> My argument has never been that Carter is selfish. Just that, while he's an excellent player, McGrady is better all-around.


I could not disagree with this argument if it only included from 2002-2004, but the last two years, i just don't see how Mcgrady have been better than Carter.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> That was a glimpse of Carter playing over his head for a short period of time.



50+ games is a short period of time?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> That was a glimpse of Carter playing over his head for a short period of time.


This basically sums up why I feel this threads are useless. Even if Vince plays his best, people will always think of it as a fluke. Whilst Vince has developed into a better all around player, Tmac has regressed into a perimeter oriented shooter. Granted he has the talent to play like that, but I'll take what Vince brings to the table, most especially those crunch time decisions.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> Jwill, Posey, Shaq, Haslem, Walker, Payton dont need the ball in their hands?


I explained my part, I dont think you found anything wrong in my statement thats why you brought up the above


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Hbwoy said:


> This basically sums up why I feel this threads are useless. Even if Vince plays his best, people will always think of it as a fluke.


There is a difference between performance over a short stretch and established performance levels. You're cherry-picking Carter's best stretch and calling that Carter's ability level. Then you compare that to everyone else's normal performance levels. That's entirely irrational.

There's no doubt that Carter _can_ play at an elite level. It's just not his usual level, which is what matters.


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## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

They are basically the same player, it's a toss up.


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