# Best bench in league?



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

I've basically analyzed all the teams and come to the decision that other than a couple teams(Indiana,Sacramento,San Antonio) the New York Knicks bench is one of the best benches in the league. I'm not going by just the last 2 games though. I'm going by most of this season. With the emergence of Mike Sweetney and DerMarr Johnson along with the suprising play of Moochie Norris and the signing of Vin Baker, we have some great guys off the bench. Dikembe Mutombo is back and looking good again and Shandon Anderson and Penny Anderson are both average-a bit better than average players. Frank Williams wont be on the roster long I think, as Allan Houston will be on the playoff roster I presume...


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Sweetney will be starting next year which will lead to KT being traded...Ild love to lose H20 and his contract and see what Demmar can do at the 2 guard..I love his potential....

Why do you say Williams will be gone???I don think Baker will be resigned next year


----------



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

i think that has always been one of our strengths even before we got Johnson and Baker. But definitely not the best. Hubie Brown regularly gives his second unit big runs in games and they play great. Our guys are mostly inexperienced and make dumb mistakes but you can see the talent. The future is bright for our guys on the bench. 

Franks pass to moochie under the hoop was amazing. Williams is a great passer and im also happy to see him driving to the hoop again. He hasnt done that since Marbury came.


----------



## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

Without really thinking about it in-depth, I've got to agree that you've got one of the better ones. It always seemed like you guys had at least 10 players who all deserved playing time. Now that they're all getting some, it's showing its benefits.


----------



## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

We have a very deep bench, the future is near....


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Franks pass to moochie under the hoop was amazing. Williams is a great passer and im also happy to see him driving to the hoop again. He hasnt done that since Marbury came.


I have always liked Frank Williams...he is a great passer..he has a much better feel for setting guys up than marbury...He needs to get more aggressive..Dont forget his mom died and really affected him...

I will never understand how chaney played eisly and ward over williams....


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

The Knicks had a deep bench last year too, but I don't see anybody lining up to admit it. The bench was the reason the Knicks won so many games last year, I sure hope you don't think Sprewell and Houston could win 30 games on their own. 

Suddenly the Knicks get "a drunk whose been given too many chances" and a lottery bust that can't play SF or SG effectively, and they're the best bench in the league?

The Grizzlies easily have the best bench in the league. The Pacers have likely 6th man of the year Al Harrington. The Kings have Bobby Jackson and one of Webber/Miller/Divac depending on who starts. The Spurs and Nets still have deep benches.

It's too bad the Knicks starting lineup is made up of bench players too, excluding Marbury. Nazr, KT, TT, and Shandon isn't exactly scaring even the likes of Collins/Martin/Jefferson/Kittles or well, pretty much any playoff team.


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

Grizzlies probably have the deepest bench with their 10 (or was it 8) man rotation. The Kings bench is a lot weaker compared to last year, but it is still pretty solid. Personally I don't think the Pacers have that deepa bench besides Harrington and Foster. I like the depth the Wolves have, second in the league IMO right up their with the Grizzlies. 

Knicks get "a drunk whose been given too many chances" who is a shell of his former self but a solid performer if given a few minutes. He won't blow you away but he won't lose the game for you often either. The knicks also get "a lottery bust that can't play SF or SG effectively" but has a ton of potential, and plays well when given minutes.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Suddenly the Knicks get "a drunk whose been given too many chances" and a lottery bust that can't play SF or SG effectively, and they're the best bench in the league?


I can see why you would be hostile towards baker as he has been his own worst enemy,been given many chances and is on a decline....

But why so hostile towards DJ???LOTTERY BUST????Are you INSANE?????The guy BROKE his neck,worked his assss off and is showing tremendous potential...

Is it you have no ability to look at a raw player and see the potential??

Is it you just HATE the Knicks and anything postive ruins your day???

Is it you are just pisssed off that Isiah did what Layden didnt have the guts or brainsto do???

If you think a guy who was drafted 6 as a soph,breaks his neck,works his way back and shows flashes of brilliance is a bust,then you are truly one twisted individual


----------



## wilon_1 (Jul 25, 2002)

Don't forget, according to Rashidi we are and will always be the worst team in the league..I am still wondering why he continues to hang in here if he hates the Knicks so much..."Shidi don't take this all personal and start getting all upset..I just never got my answer as to what team you actually follow


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> I can see why you would be hostile towards baker as he has been his own worst enemy,been given many chances and is on a decline....
> ...



Couldn't have put it better myself. :yes: Thank you Isaiah !


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Isiah has done as good a job as humanly possible considering the mess he walked into and given the win now mandate..We lost Lampe,a crappy draft pick,and the rights to some stiff who didnt want to come over here and show what hes got....

We kept Sweetney which is huge and picked up Demmar who everyone just may turn out to be a steal....

Isiah has done a great job,even if lampe turns out to be something special...Now if he can somehow get us Damp


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

The fact that Lampe is gone makes me a little upset because I feel if he is allowed to play his natural power forward position and works a little hard, he will be a star in this league. Yet I'm very very happy with Sweetney, Dermarr and may I daresay, even Tim Thomas.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> I can see why you would be hostile towards baker as he has been his own worst enemy,been given many chances and is on a decline....


Actually I was more referring to you, and a few other posters. I'm happy with Baker on the bench, he's the best player we have on it. But his addition hasn't changed the depth of the bench very much, the Knicks were deep before they got him, same for DJ.



> But why so hostile towards DJ???LOTTERY BUST????Are you INSANE?????The guy BROKE his neck,worked his assss off and is showing tremendous potential...


Tremendous potential? DJ has not improved one bit since entering the league. He's as bad today as he was during his rookie year.



> Is it you have no ability to look at a raw player and see the potential??


Since when do raw players have potential? Darius Miles was raw, and he still is raw. He hasn't improved since his rookie year either. Perhaps you should define the word "raw" and how "potential" applies to it. Does DJ have nice physical skills? Sure. Does DJ have nice basketball skills? NO.



> Is it you just HATE the Knicks and anything postive ruins your day???


Oh yes, me saying that a 12th man is badly overrated definitely means I hate the Knicks. *Yawn*



> Is it you are just pisssed off that Isiah did what Layden didnt have the guts or brainsto do???


You are talking like the Knicks wouldn't have had the inside track on Baker or DJ if Isiah wasn't the GM. Baker wanted to play in NY, and DJ was signed because of Houston's injury. If Houston is healthy, Knicks never sign DJ, regardless of who the GM is.



> If you think a guy who was drafted 6 as a soph,breaks his neck,works his way back and shows flashes of brilliance is a bust,then you are truly one twisted individual


What flashes of brillilance? DJ is NOT playing any better than he was during his rookie and sophmore years. He hasn't improved at all, regardless of his neck. I'm a twisted individual because I'm saying some bust can't bring his game to the next level? If anything, his neck injury DECREASES THE LIKELYHOOD of the bust ever becoming more than a bust. Let's take a look at recent 6th picks.

2003 Chris Kaman
2002 Dajuan Wagner
2001 Shane Battier
2000 DerMarr Johnson
1999 Wally Szczerbiak
1998 Robert Traylor
1997 Ron Mercer
1996 Antoine Walker
1995 Sharone Wright
1994 Calbert Cheaney

Historically the 6th pick is a great place to find busts. I don't hold DerMarr Johnson in any higher esteem than Robert Traylor, and at BEST he is HALF as good as Ron Mercer.

Let's put things in perspective. DerMarr Johnson was a 6th pick. He's been in the NBA 4 seasons, and he still sucks. He is at best a marginal starter on a lottery team, a crappier version of Stephen Jackson. The only thing he can do is score, and he has never shot above 40% from the field in any season. If anything his neck injury has regressed his game from where it was in Atlanta. If I'm a twisted individual because I'm not letting my emotions get in the way like you are, then that just makes you a dumbass.


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

There are better ways to make your point than to make personal attacks. Mods please shut this thread down.


----------



## inapparent (Jul 2, 2003)

Why is no one referencing Sweetney when talking about the bench? his per 48 minutes averages are outrageously good, he's only playing better and better as he acquires confidence and more PT, and his offensive rebounding is producing 2nd chances that make the rest of the 2nd unit better. He, more than Baker or Williams or DJ, is the reason the bench has been productive lately. I'd be very happy to see him start next year if they can move KT (whose contract looks pretty trade-unfriendly right now given his lowered production and the 15% trade kicker in his new contract). But, if they can get Rasheed or Damp, the front line will be pretty impressive next year, esp. with a full training camp. I'd let Baker go I think, I a) don't believe he'll avoid a relapse, and b) don't think he's going to add much more than he has. If they get one of those 2 guys then I'm also fine with moving Deke if Isiah can manage it and letting Nazr spell both PT and C positions--I think he's fine as a 2nd unit big man, though pretty ghastly as a starter. But it's all about Sweetney's development--I wasn't sure about him at all given his strength and weight, but now I'm a believer--I just hope that, whatever bigs come in next year, there isn't a verteran glut at PF which denies Sweets the PT he needs to continue to develop. I'm not interested in making any Elton Brand or Malone comparisons like some have, but I think he's proving he could easily be a 16 and 10 guy for years--maybe Boozer is a good comparison, or at least a good projection of what Sweetney can/could do. Oh yeah, my wish list also includes a viable SG, bc I think H2O is, if not done, going to be a shadow of his already one-dimensional self. Oh yeah #2, I also pray Isiah can somehow reacquire a first rounder this year or next. Given what he's already done I think this is possible although I know I'm just fantasizing.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I'm not ready to proclaim DJ our next SG or SF. I feel like I've seen a dozen of his kind pass thru:

Gerald Wilkens
Antony Bonner
Johnny Newman
John Wallace
Walter McCarty
Lee Nailon
Etc.

Bunch of guys who show some flashes, but who's flaws gape as large as their potential. good bench guys. I've liked them all to varying degrees, yet I miss none of them.

DJ is a good story, I hope he can become something and I hope it's here, but I'm not counting him in just yet.


----------



## marcus_camby (Feb 28, 2004)

we have a very good bench but, i think they is not important like they should be. to nyk game


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> There are better ways to make your point than to make personal attacks. Mods please shut this thread down.


Max,thats just rashidi being rashidi...i used to take him seriously,until i realised he is not a knick fan...

hes a good guy to have in the forum...


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

Thanks for letting me know that, truth.


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Rashidi can be so damned abrasive but I agree with everything he said in the last post..except the dumb *** thing. Statistics aside, I find him to be cold and calculating when it comes to judging players potential vs. performance and that is what is needed in filling a roster. IT took quite a few fliers and if they don't work out (and I'm betting most don't) he will look bad. 

I know everyone likes IT's agressiveness and he has a golden shield right now because of his percieved success but what has he really accomplished at the management level anywhere? I think he could be (and should be) judged with a very cautious and skeptical eye.

BTW, Sweetney has every chance of being better than almost all PF in the game as a scorer. He was a monster in college. Soft, strong hands, nice touch, great post moves, and decent range to go along with agility and grace that bely his size. He's a keeper.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Max,thats just rashidi being rashidi...


And yet you initiated the insulting by calling me a "twisted individual" for no logical reason. If you can't even realize your own hypocrisy, well, I already responded by calling you a dumbass, I'm going to have to think of something new.


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

This from the person that thought going to insults was a lack of maturity....way to go big boy...


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> The Knicks had a deep bench last year too, but I don't see anybody lining up to admit it. The bench was the reason the Knicks won so many games last year, I sure hope you don't think Sprewell and Houston could win 30 games on their own.
> 
> Suddenly the Knicks get "a drunk whose been given too many chances" and a lottery bust that can't play SF or SG effectively, and they're the best bench in the league?
> ...


Why do you post here? Why?! Do you have any sense of fan urgency to be in the playoffs? Are you happy to be in the playoffs? Are you a Knick fan? I'll answer all those with a big NO. Sure other teams have BETTER BENCHES AS I STATED IN PARENTHESIS fool. The Nets are not one of them. I forgot Memphis for which you are right. Our bench is better this year than last year for one reason, it has better players. And ofcourse you wont agree since you'll go back and talki about your good ol' days with the Great Layden-Chaney-Eisley-Knight Era. But we have a young gun in Mike Sweetney, suprising play by DerMarr and Moochie along with an inside presence in Deke and solid play for Vin. Add that to Anderson and Penny and Houston in the lineup if he returns, and you have a great bench. Let me remind you Anderson is only starting because of Houston's injury. TT a backup? No sir. KT a backup? ahahaha. I'd bet a lot of NBA GM's would disagree with you there. It's too bad your loving of anything Layden, your showing of not being a real fan, and your continued disgraceful disses about the organization is ruining this board every single day. Am I going to get mod'ed? Maybe. But you know what, I'll do all it takes to prove the truth. And that is that you are not a Knick fan. End of story.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> and a lottery bust that can't play SF or SG effectively, and they're the best bench in the league?


That is why I called you a twisted individual...LOL

twisted coud be good BTW.......but in your case it is twisted as in nutty....You take a liking to certain players pr GMs and whether they sukk or not you love them....

Anyone else you bash,for no ryme or reason....It really is twisted...Why do you think everybody is on you???Alot of the things you say,just arent rational,and your timing is bizzare...Plus you are the Knicks nannering neighbob of negativity...Its almost comedic....


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> And yet you initiated the insulting by calling me a "twisted individual" for no logical reason. If you can't even realize your own hypocrisy, well, I already responded by calling you a dumbass, I'm going to have to think of something new.


In case you havent noticed I have learned that you are a closet Knick hater...You are no fan..Most of the things you say are amusing and the words of a rival not a fan..But you are fun to joust with..

And I love that you have egg all over your face...

We are in the playoffs,thanks to IT

its not too late to jump on the bandwagon or you can snipe until we get knocked out and give us the "I told you so",which you are dying to do..I know its killing you that we are in


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> IT took quite a few fliers and if they don't work out (and I'm betting most don't) he will look bad.


If they dont work out????UMMM..It looks like they did Alfa..where have you been???We took a .375 team and are in the playoffs despite numerous trades and injuries

Alfa,sorry to tell you but you lost your bet...How will he look bad???We made the playoffs for the first time in how ,many years,we didnt give up that much since we are in and its not a lottery pick...What excatly are you betting on?????Cmon!!!!!

Look bad??Care to elaborate?????


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> BTW, Sweetney has every chance of being better than almost all PF in the game as a scorer. He was a monster in college. Soft, strong hands, nice touch, great post moves, and decent range to go along with agility and grace that bely his size. He's a keeper.


Alfa,you are confusing me..Do you not give any credit to Isaih for holding on to Sweetney??I was Sweets biggest critic,admittedly wrong,but sometimes the trades you dont make are the best trades

To Rashidi and Alfa....What exactly do you expect out of IT???

Miracles???If you guys tell me you want a championship,I know you guys arent for real..Dont blame that on IT..Thank Scotty for that....

Alfa,what specifically are you betting against and what would you have done differently???

Not taken marbury for Lampe,rights to vapornic and a crappy draft pick??Did you like Eisly and ward???Personally,I like d Williams

Were you content on going into next season with a 50 y.o Deke and Doleac at the 5???You dont think Naz is a better option...

Was keeping Sweets and getting rid of Spoon,Eisly and Ward so bad???Are you agreeing with Rashidi and saying DJ is a bust

HUH???


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> We made the playoffs for the first time in how ,many years,


The Knicks spent 2 years out of the playoffs, and you're talking like it's an eternity.



> We are in the playoffs,thanks to IT


You are talking like this is some sort of accomplishment. Hooray, the Knicks are mediocre just like all the other teams they used to sweep out of the first round, like the Fratello Cavs. What good is the 7th seed? Have you even thought about what making the playoffs means?

For the Layden Knicks, 7th seed would have meant something since they'd be overachieving. But when the Knicks supposedly acquired a "superstar" they were supposed to be better than the 7th seed. They're a veteran team again. The Don Nelson Knicks were a failure because they were only a 49 win team. You DO realize that the Houston/Sprewell/Rice Knicks were better than this team, right? What exactly is so optimistic about that?

The Knicks are closer to the playoffs today than they were last year.

The Knicks are further from a championship today than they were last year.


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

After skipping everything you wrote and reading the last line I clearly think you are not a Knick fan and maybe could be Scott Layden posing as a BBB.net poster trying to brainwash posters into believing his era was great. But in reality you are a clueless fool and with that from now on my responses to your posts will be plain and simple: If you are supposedly a Knick fan, act like it. If not leave. Nobody wants to see you here cursing out the Knicks, arguing day in and day out, and praising failure while dissing success. 

That is going to be my responses from now on. Playoffs not an accomplishment with this team? It's been 3 years and we've been here being laughed at by the rest of the league at "the Illustrious" Scott Layden regime and the entire organization. 3 years is a long time for NY. If you knew that you'd actually be a Knick fan. Frankly I've given up on what you really are. I just think your here to piss people off and get off(literally) to it. There is no other explanation. You aren't a fan of the Knicks plain and simple. Once again I will tell you what the majority of this board feels:

*If you are supposedly a Knick fan, act like it. If not leave. Nobody wants to see you here cursing out the Knicks, arguing day in and day out, and praising failure while dissing success. *


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> The Knicks spent 2 years out of the playoffs, and you're talking like it's an eternity.


Hmmmm..laydens gone and we are back in....BYE BYE scotty,dont let the door hit you on the way out



> What good is the 7th seed?


oh,now you want to TANK the season???Yet when the Knicks were playing .333 ball you liked our team and said give layden a chance to make the playoffs...Sorry Rashidi,everyone is on to your two sided BS...IT is in the playoffs,Layden is on the unemployment line..get over it



> They're a veteran team again


oh right..Spoon,Eisly,Ward ,KVH and Mcdyss were coming off all Rookie years

oh right,Sweetney,DJ,Naz,Steph and TT are really old...Care to make up some more nonsense??Oh,I see you outdid yourself with the following remarks




> The Knicks are closer to the playoffs today than they were last year.


 and


> The Knicks are further from a championship today than they were last year


and you call me a DUMBASS????..Last I looked the Knicks are IN the playoffs....Man,if there were moderators for stupid statements they would be all over you...


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> 3 years is a long time for NY. If you knew that you'd actually be a Knick fan.


Yes, just ask the Mets, Rangers, Islanders, Giants, and Jets.

Sorry, I don't buy the "long drought" ***** and moan routine. Utah and Portland are missing the playoffs for the first time in like 20 years this season, and I somehow doubt their fans are going to be pissing in their pants like spoiled brats not getting their way if they miss the playoffs next year too. Two years does not compare to what plenty of other franchises have gone through. The NBA revolves around more than NY.



> If you are supposedly a Knick fan, act like it. If not leave.


Big words from the board administrator. If you don't like me, cry me a river. Oh wait, too late.


----------



## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

I've always said the 'truth'will set you free, and it's good to know some things haven't changed around here. There's nothing wrong with being critical of your team at times, I mean those people who run the team are not always rocket scientists (ala Layden). I was a critic of Layden because 1) I didn't always like his moves and 2) he never really outlined a concrete plan for the team. IT talks to the media and through extension us fans; he lets the people know what he is doing. He gives us a vision for what he is trying to accomplish. Not like some previous GM who kept his plan for the team close to his chest tighter than Dick Cheneys' Energy Summit 4 years ago. We have new faces, new dynamics and a whole new outlook for this team. We now have possibilities instead of blind loyalty to the company line. If you yearn for Layden, write his publicist to find out what plans he has for the future, although I highly doubt he tell you anything sticking to form. Truth keep that keen insight and good sense of humor going. My only beef with the present day Knicks is that I really wish they tighten up on the defensive end, and knock some people down coming through the lane. Other than that, let's kick New Jersey's ***!!!


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

Am I cryin you fool? I don't think so. I don't like you? I'm telling you to act like a fan of the new york knicks!! IS THAT SO HARD?

*If you are supposedly a Knick fan, act like it. If not leave. Nobody wants to see you here cursing out the Knicks, arguing day in and day out, and praising failure while dissing success. *


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> I'm telling you to act like a fan of the new york knicks!!


Who created the definition of what a fan is? You?


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

Actually everyone here and every living fan of every single team in the entire world. You stay DEDICATED to a team through thick and thin and celebrate success while being pissed at failure. You don't think I had any hope for Layden's Knicks. Sure I did. But year by year, Spoon by Spoon, Eisley by Eisley, Chaney by Chaney, it just became more and more frustrating to even watch the team. It was a pity to depend on a guy with 1 knee that hadn't played in 2 years to save the franchise. But again I was still DEDICATED to this team, unlike you. The day Scott Layden was fired I probaly had one of the biggest celebrations ever in a very long time. And second was us reaching the playoffs again. Congratullations to Isiah and the entire New York Knicks organization for building this team and hopefully next year with time and moves, we will be the Eastern Conference powerhouse we once were. That is a New York Knick fan. Not you. Get it straight!

*If you are supposedly a Knick fan, act like it. If not leave. Nobody wants to see you here cursing out the Knicks, arguing day in and day out, and praising failure while dissing success. *


----------



## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

AMEN!!!


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> You stay DEDICATED to a team through thick and thin and celebrate success while being pissed at failure.


HAHAHAHHAH What a steaming load of crap. Dedicated to a team through thick and thin? Please. You're in New York City, bandwagon capital of the world. Where were these dedicated souls earlier in the year? *****ing about the team, the same as I am right now. The Knicks have thrown away their future for a marginal improvement. Why am I not allowed to be pissed about that? Because you said so? Have a seat.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> The Knicks have thrown away their future for a marginal improvement. Why am I not allowed to be pissed about that?


And yet you supported Layden when he threw away our future on Mark Jackson and Othella. 

It just don't make sense.


----------



## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

Rashidi, have you noticed how VEHEMENTLY opposed everyone here is to your comments ? We can't all be wrong. By the way, there's a big difference between being constructively critical and being outright brazen and ludicrous. The last time I checked, a 26 year old superstar point guard, a dedicated and talented rookie, a 27 year old forward waiting to break out and statistically the most prolific coach in history doesn't really make for "marginal" or "temporary" success.


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Being a fan doesn't mean you can't be critical of the players or the management. As I have said often in the past, I want a championship again...not a 1st or 2nd round exit every year.. As far as not trading Sweetney...do you KNOW that he had the chance and turned it down? Do you KNOW that TT will be great and play to his potential? Do you KNOW that DJ will be anything more than he is? Do you KNOW that Nazr will be anything more than he is? The answer to all of the above is ..NO, you don't. When these moves pan out, I'll be duly impressed and give credit where credit is due. It is non-demanding, short-sighted fans like some on this board that made it impossible to rebuild. It wasn't the "contracts" because they would have become very tradable within 2 more years. I could have waited for the chance to get a 'Melo, or LeBron, or KG, or Tmac. 

I am not trying to single out anybody but burying your heads in the sand is not going to make anything better. The fact is this: IT has NOT shown himself to be an especially astute judge of talent nor has he been a very good manager when he has had the opportunity. I am saying that if these guys don't pan out...and they have acomplished NOTHING yet(making the playoffs in the last few years in the East is a joke as a measuring stick)...then he has hurt us more than helped. Before the anti-Layden guys jump me, let me say that I didn't like most of his vision, either.

The only championship caliber team that is built the way IT is building the Knicks(no home grown talent via drafts) is the Lakers and they signed the superstar and guys that want to play with him, which we can't do. There is no successful model for the construction method IT is using...and THAT is a fact. I am a fan but I am not a believer in this path nor any path that doesn't lead to a championship team. The real "fans" that root for a playoff seed of any kind so we can just get in are the real reason this team is not going to have a dynasty any time soon. Demand more and you will get more. Dolan just wants to make some bucks. Mark Cuban is the kind of owner we need. He is sort of a jerk but all he wants is a winner.


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> Tremendous potential? DJ has not improved one bit since entering the league. He's as bad today as he was during his rookie year.
> 
> Since when do raw players have potential? Darius Miles was raw, and he still is raw. He hasn't improved since his rookie year either. Perhaps you should define the word "raw" and how "potential" applies to it. Does DJ have nice physical skills? Sure. Does DJ have nice basketball skills? NO.


DJ not improving one bit? Breaking your neck stunts your growth for sure. Never been injuried like DJ before but I imagine it takes a lot just to rehab and BE at the same level pre-injury. It is unfair to judge DJ on his "4" years when he spend at least 2 and even more being injuried and rehabing. 


When you have "raw" players, you have "unrefined" or "unfinished" players. That is a dictionary definition, if you want to argue. If you are "unrefined" or "unfinished," it means your not done and can be improved, therefore having potential. Does DJ have nice physical skills? Sure. Does DJ have nice basketball skills? Not now, but that is why he is RAW. He has the potential to be better because of his physical skills. As long as you have the ability you have the chance to develope the basketball skills as long as you work hard enough. A short person with no hops will never dunk, no matter how much he practices. Some things are inate, and DJ has some of those inate skills. He doesn't have the basketbakk skills yet, but those can be learned. DJ has worked hard to come back to the NBA, i say there is a good chance he will work hard to improve, considering DJ is only 23.


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> You are talking like this is some sort of accomplishment. Hooray, the Knicks are mediocre just like all the other teams they used to sweep out of the first round, like the Fratello Cavs. What good is the 7th seed? Have you even thought about what making the playoffs means?
> 
> ...


Rashidi, you should aslo realize this. Yes, the Marbury are suppose to be better than the 7th seed in the East, but Marbury was also saddled with that HORRIBLE record that the Knicks had before Marbury came. If you look at the Record the Knicks had since Marbury came, it would be good enough for 4th in the East.


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, just ask the Mets, Rangers, Islanders, Giants, and Jets.
> ...


Mets made the World Series in 2000 and missed the playoffs for two seasons. Baseball, however, only has 4 teams instead of 8 make the playoffs from each conference/league each year. Half the chances, and I'm sure Mets fans are moaning about the playoff drought, trust me.

Islanders, Gaints, Jets all made the playoffs a season ago. You think Ranger fans don't moan about the playoff drought? 7 seasons without making the playoffs and you have the highest payroll, just like the Knicks. Rashidi, if you think New York fans only moan about the Knicks, then you are mistaken. One reason for the Knicks and Ranger fans to be pissed is that THEY HAVE THE HIGHEST PAYROLL IN THE LEAGUE. If you are spending that much money you should at least make the playoffs, especially since both the NHL and NBA have half of the teams making the playoffs. Are you saying that even with the leagues highest payroll your not even in the top half of the leagie? Especially in the weak east?


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> HAHAHAHHAH What a steaming load of crap. Dedicated to a team through thick and thin? Please. You're in New York City, bandwagon capital of the world. Where were these dedicated souls earlier in the year? *****ing about the team, the same as I am right now. The Knicks have thrown away their future for a marginal improvement. Why am I not allowed to be pissed about that? Because you said so? Have a seat.


New York City as bandwagon capital of the world? I'm challenging you on that Rashidi. I have always supported the NY and Philly franchises even when they were crap. I know many other fans who did too. How is NY the bandwagon city of teh world? NYers usually stay dedicated to their teams, just look at how log it took befoer the Garden's sellout streak ended. Unless, of course, you are implying something about yourself when you say NY is the bandwagon city of the world. Looking at your posting history, I say it is very possible. 

Sure you can be pissed Rashidi, but maybe you could show just a TINY bit of support for the Knicks? You havn't stoped bashing the Knicks since Layden was fired. You are acting more like a guest than a fan right now.


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> Being a fan doesn't mean you can't be critical of the players or the management. As I have said often in the past, I want a championship again...not a 1st or 2nd round exit every year.. As far as not trading Sweetney...do you KNOW that he had the chance and turned it down? Do you KNOW that TT will be great and play to his potential? Do you KNOW that DJ will be anything more than he is? Do you KNOW that Nazr will be anything more than he is? The answer to all of the above is ..NO, you don't. When these moves pan out, I'll be duly impressed and give credit where credit is due. It is non-demanding, short-sighted fans like some on this board that made it impossible to rebuild. It wasn't the "contracts" because they would have become very tradable within 2 more years. I could have waited for the chance to get a 'Melo, or LeBron, or KG, or Tmac.
> 
> I am not trying to single out anybody but burying your heads in the sand is not going to make anything better. The fact is this: IT has NOT shown himself to be an especially astute judge of talent nor has he been a very good manager when he has had the opportunity. I am saying that if these guys don't pan out...and they have acomplished NOTHING yet(making the playoffs in the last few years in the East is a joke as a measuring stick)...then he has hurt us more than helped. Before the anti-Layden guys jump me, let me say that I didn't like most of his vision, either.
> ...


Alpha, we understand that Rashidi has the right to be critical, but you have to admit that Rashidi hasn't done anything but bash the Knicks day in and day out. You can be critical to a degree before it gets too far, and in the opinion of most posters here Rashidi has gone too far. Alpha, when was the last time you saw Rashidi post something positive about the Knicks? 

And alpha, of course we don't know anything for sure, but thast the fun in sports, you never know anything for sure. For all we know someone could shoot Duncan and kill him (ok, maybe that is a bit extreme, how about a serious injury), turning the Spurs from a powerhouse to a lottery team. In fact, that is how the Spurs got Duncan in the first place. Having David Robinson injuried for a season killed the Spurs, but they were able to land the #1 pick even though they had a contending caliaber team already. No one would have predicted that the Spurs would be so bad. We can't be sure of anything, but we can hope. On the other hand, we don't KNOW that the picks we traded away are going to be good. We don't KNOW that Lampe and Vujanic will turn out to be good either. We made a gamble, and the results are not in yet. 

You don't have to like IT's moves, I respect that. I would argue with you about how he isn't a good talent evaluator, but that is not the point. Maybe we should give IT a bit more time with the team? Give him at least a full year and a full offseason. IT hasn't had time to implement his plan yet, give him time.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>dcrono3</b>!
> 
> 
> Rashidi, you should aslo realize this. Yes, the Marbury are suppose to be better than the 7th seed in the East, but Marbury was also saddled with that HORRIBLE record that the Knicks had before Marbury came. If you look at the Record the Knicks had since Marbury came, it would be good enough for 4th in the East.


It should also be remembered they assembled the losing record with Houston and the winning record without him. We are left to imagine what Marbury's record might have been if he had a bonafide scorer aboard.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> NYers usually stay dedicated to their teams, just look at how log it took befoer the Garden's sellout streak ended.


NY is quite a populated city, not exactly hard to sell out an arena of 20,000 under those circumstances. When does Madison Square Garden NOT sell out events consistently?

And I don't get it, the Knicks were winners for how long, why wouldn't they sell out? And the sellout streak ended midway through the 2nd year of the playoff drought. That's some "dedicated" fans alright. The Bulls went from winners to among the worst teams in NBA history, and they kept a longer sellout streak after missing the playoffs, and they won 15-20 fewer games than the Knicks.



> THEY HAVE THE HIGHEST PAYROLL IN THE LEAGUE


This isn't baseball. Payroll arguements don't apply, because there is a salary cap. All payroll is indicitive of is how many vets are on your team. The Spurs won a championship with a 1.5 million dollar combined backcourt. As the years go on, Parker and Ginobili are going to make a lot more than 1.5 million combined.



> And yet you supported Layden when he threw away our future on Mark Jackson and Othella.


You are doing exact same thing. You are criticizing Layden for throwing away "the future" Donnell Harvey, and praising IT for throwing away the future. The only reason you are saying something is because we're on the opposite end of the spectrum.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Utah and Portland are missing the playoffs for the first time in like 20 years this season, and I somehow doubt their fans are going to be pissing in their pants like spoiled brats not getting their way if they miss the playoffs next year too


Rashidi,what kind of comparison is that????UTAH????????????First off they are in the BRUTAL west

On paper the Utah team stinks,yet they had a FANTASTIC year with NO Payroll..Jerry Sloan is coach of the year..Of course their fans are happy

Portland???Highest payroll team in the league who finally let the DOGS out.....They played well the second half of the year and have talent

Laydens Knicks???Garbage with no vision,in the lowly east,with Eisly starting at point and Chaney as coach...can it get any worse?


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> There is no successful model for the construction method IT is using...and THAT is a fact.


Ill tell you what the model is Alfa...Go out and get a 7 foot,400 pound monster named Shaq or get a 7 foot superstar named Duncan or get the best basketball player ever ,named Jordan.You start there...Or pray that Jordan plays baseball and then make sure you have a guy nicknamed Dream on your team...

I think you get it.....you NEED a superstar to be a championship team..and of course a solid supporting cast......

Does Detroit have that???we will soon find out

Alfa,I know you were a supporter of tearing apart the knicks and tanking the season...Apparently Layden did not have the mandate nor did IT...

Of course nobody knows for sure what the future brings..But your argument is flawed and you are playing monday morning quarterback....

And you still havent said what IT should have done given the apparent mandate..And how is Dolan that much worse than Cuban..Dolan spends the BiG BUCKS,he unfortunetly had Layden coming up with the ideas..We do have the second highest payroll in the league.

You doubt the potential of NAZ,TT,DJ and IT's commitment to Sweetney..Im a trader Alfa...Everday is a new day.Todat we are in the playoffs.Nothing is guaranteed tomorrow

What is your plan??


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> NY is quite a populated city, not exactly hard to sell out an arena of 20,000 under those circumstances. When does Madison Square Garden NOT sell out events consistently?
> ...


Rashidi, you want to explain why you think NY is a city of bandwagoners? I certainly don't think so.

Even if this isn't baseball, payroll still counts. If your team sucks so much they aren't even in the top half of the weak east, you don't want to pay 94 million when the salary cap is half of that. The Knicks spend so much money and they are still unable to win. At least the Yankees win. The Knicks are wasting their money on stupid decisions. The knicks charge a lot of money for their games, partly because of their massive payroll, and fans want to see their team win, especially when they are paying a lot of money. Payroll does matter, a lot in the eyes of fans. What does it say when you can't win in the east when you have close to double the payroll of most teams?


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

1) I DO see the potential of certain players. I also see that so far they have not come close to fulfilling it. DJ has, perhaps, the only legitimate excuse for not being further along.

2) Its not fair to ask me what my plan is...I have told you what it was but now it is not possible since IT's moves.

3)There are plenty of superstars..some of them unhappy where they are. Get a decent supporting cast and clear some cap space and go get one. Other teams do it..why can't we?(far down the road, now)

4) Listen to some of these guys..."a 27 year old forward waiting to break out" don't hold your breath. He will be best at being a complimentary player. "Superstar point guard"? He's good but certainly no superstar.

5) Detroit has a team full of established stars and emerging stars. No superstar but if you go back and read my first post on this subject a few weeks ago, I said you need a superstar and a another lower level star or no superstar and several lesser stars. Detroit fits. There is no team expected to do anything without such a roster.

6) You said yourself that TT hasn't done what you expected him to vis a vis disappearing and being invisible despite putting up decent numbers. DJ, while talented, has done nothing against a good team or defensive player. Nazr disappears for games at a time. We have a star...one.....and a whole buch of guys that would be coming off the bench on almost any good team. We are going where with this team? The playoffs should be enlightening, maybe even for me but I'll believe it when I see it. I see us a a team of mediocrity now and for the next few years. Good enough to get in..and out rather quickly..but not good enough to draft a real impact player. Further, we are capped out even longer than we were. Sorry...just how I feel. I don't think I'm alone. Which of our starters do other GMs pine for? Marbury, maybe, but I doubt anyone else.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Alfa,good points...We both want to see the Knicks as a contender,not a one and done type squad..We actually are in total agreement on how we should have gotten there..Tank the season,play the rooks and keep your fingers crossed in the lottery...

But that wasnt the mandate..So the question was waht does IT do considering he had to clean up laydens mess...Or not...

The Marbury trade would have been costly had we not made the playoffs..I said that from day one..We made them,so its turned out to be a great trade...Unless you think Lampe is the second coming of tim duncan...its possible ,but doubtful...

If you want to win the championship,IT had one option..GAMBLE....

As for TT ..I had no expectations of him as I really never saw him play...But after watching him,I can see what could drive a coach/fan crazy...The guy is awesomely talented and seems to coast...He has all star talent,plain and simple...

DJ....The guy is 6'9" has a very good handle,can hit from downtown and can get to the rim..I see more good then bad with him..In fact,I see a load of talent

I am not saying IT has been great...I think he has done everything humanly possible considering the circumstances...His major bet is that guys like TT and DJ will play up to their potential...

We have Sweets who I think is going to be a monster in this league...

Quite honestly,I dont think Marbury is a floor general...Hes a Joe Dumars 2 guard type...Call me crazy,but F Williams has that pure point mentaility....

Alfa,we really are in agreement..I think I am a bit more realistic about the hand IT was dealt....

With that said,just get us Damp


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> My only beef with the present day Knicks is that I really wish they tighten up on the defensive end, and knock some people down coming through the lane.


How true..its pitiful.....Thats why I think old man Deke is the key to the knicks going anywhere,but I dont think lenny agrees..No Sheed,get me Damp!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can Mark Blount play any D?????????


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> NY is quite a populated city, not exactly hard to sell out an arena of 20,000 under those circumstances. When does Madison Square Garden NOT sell out events consistently?
> ...


Do you see a point of posting anymore? Do you even read what you say? The sellout streak ended and you call us unfaithful for that? You are simply an idiot, as that has been pointed out already. Why were we going to pack an arena with the most boringest team in the NBA playing fat, overpaid, old, untalented losers night in and night out? How were we going to take a stand? Give the owner a message. And where it hurts is the pocket. Dolan was losing money and decided he had enough of Layden's Utah reunion in NY and the entire stranglehold he put on the organization. Isiah Thomas CANNOT AND WILL NOT be judged in half a season. He will not make all the right moves but he will HEAVILY beat out Scott Layden anytime and anywhere. Who in their right mind, as a true Knick fan, supported Scott Layden? Did you see the fans calling for his head at 3 straight drafts? Donnel Harvey? And what if it was Rashard Lewis fool? It doesn't matter who was picked and what happened, he traded away a future pick for a nobody in Othella and an old pg in Mark Jackson, only to acquire the so-called "savior" of the franchise a year later. And Rashidi, where exactly did you see the Knicks going with a youth movement? Lampe, Sweetney, Vranes were all riding the IL and Frank Williams wasn't even playing. And that probaly would have continued if Eisley didn't suck so badly. The rookies would have never played, guaranteed. Simply put, Layden thought the horrible team he constructed with an average age of 35 was going to contend for a championship and never ever realized that it was time to play the young guys, get some good guys through the draft, rid of the horrendous players and their contracts, and rebuild. Isiah Thomas came in and changed everything. By the time Layden was done, rebuilding was not an option. There was no point in sitting on your hands for 3 years, waiting for contracts to expire. He needed to do something and he did it. He changed the face of the team with his big moves and has put us back in the playoffs. I believe in this team and in this season. I believe we can beat the Nets!! LET'S GO KNICKS!!


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Yes, Truth, we mostly agree except I don't like it when gambles don't pay off and you are left with no options. I wanted IT to rebuild...I felt he was a better guy than Layden to do that. I just feel that IT mortgaged the near future with his moves. No biggie if they win big but if they don't (and the odds ain't great) then we have a problem, Houston.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Why were we going to pack an arena with the most boringest team in the NBA playing fat, overpaid, old, untalented losers night in and night out?


you hit the nail on the head...not only was the team bad,they were so @#$%%ing boring..it was a terrible product and ny fans are very educated..they will stomach a bad team as long as the product is entertaining..Layden supplied neither and even worse there was no apparent gameplan


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> Yes, Truth, we mostly agree except I don't like it when gambles don't pay off and you are left with no options. I wanted IT to rebuild...I felt he was a better guy than Layden to do that. I just feel that IT mortgaged the near future with his moves. No biggie if they win big but if they don't (and the odds ain't great) then we have a problem, Houston.


True alpha, good points, but wouldn't yuo agree that we should wait for a bit more time until we determine if the gamble has panned out? Giving the players at least one year on the Knicks before determining if they are busts seems fair to me.


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> you hit the nail on the head...not only was the team bad,they were so @#$%%ing boring..it was a terrible product and ny fans are very educated..they will stomach a bad team as long as the product is entertaining..Layden supplied neither and even worse there was no apparent gameplan


Not only that, do you know how much the Garden charges compared to other places?


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> not only was the team bad,they were so @#$%%ing boring..


Sprewell and Houston were boring?

It seems like some of you just associate losing with boring and winning with exciting. Maybe you should live in Cleveland and compare/contrast. What's the difference between the Price Cavs, the Fratello Cavs, the Pre-Lebron Cavs, and the Lebron Cavs?


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

the knicks with camby were exciting..the camby less knicks were brutal..watching spree or h20 back in for 23 seconds was not very entertaining..and the electrifying backcourt duo of Ward/Eisly was marginally better than watching paint dry..


ever wonder why attendance was way down????did you think it was some sort of a conspiracy???


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> ever wonder why attendance was way down????did you think it was some sort of a conspiracy???


Becuase they weren't winning 50 games. Duh.

Further, the Cambyless Knicks? Camby was in NY for one of those seasons genius. The Knicks fell out of the playoff hunt once he went down, he only played 20 something games that year. Is that some fault of the GM? The Knicks were .500 when Spree came back from injury last year, so please explain to me how this .500 team is anymore exciting than last year's .500 team. The only thing more "exciting" is the win total.



> watching spree or h20 back in for 23 seconds was not very entertaining..


I don't find Marbury running down the court just to jack up a 3 very entertaining. I don't find porous defense to be very entertaining. Other than Mutombo, this team has regressed defensively from last year's "horrible" team.


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Becuase they weren't winning 50 games. Duh.
> ...


Yes, the same "horrible" team that finished out of the playoffs with a late lottery pick for the 2nd straight season under the "successful" Scott Layden.


----------



## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> 
> 
> And yet you supported Layden when he threw away our future on Mark Jackson and Othella.
> ...



not to be backing up rashidi at all, because im not but who did we trade for othella and mark jackson??


----------



## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Memphis has the best bench in the NBA

Swift
Watkins
Battier
Wells
Jones
Outlaw
Jake

They have guys on their IR ( Bell etc) who could play for alot of teams


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>knicksfan</b>!
> 
> not to be backing up rashidi at all, because im not but who did we trade for othella and mark jackson??


Check this link, it's to post #33 of the thread "The new Knicks". Sould be more than enough info:

http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=1150861#post1150861


----------

