# Antoine Walker & Tony Delk reportedly traded to..



## schub

Dallas.

Just heard a report on ESPN Radio.

Walker and Delk for LaFrentz, Mills, Welsch and a draft pick I think.


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## Jamel Irief

Huh? That is insane.

Look out for that Mavericks motion offense if this is true.


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## ToddMacCulloch11

wow. If its true, dallas is going to have more 3 point shots then the rest of the league combined next year.


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## OG

that's damn crazy!
dallas will have a line up of something like:

C Fortson/Bradley
PF Dirk/Walker
SF Antawn/Walker
SG Finley/Delk
PG Nash/Delk/Best

that's some NICE depth!


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## MJG

What a crazy deal -- Dallas can run a Nash/Finley/Jamison/Walker/Norwitzki lineup if they want


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## OG

it's an insteresting trade.. i see antawn and antoine as such similar types of players.. sure antoine shoots more 3s, but for their size and positions, rebound abilities.. it makes me wonder why cuban wants both players.. i guess he's always after talent rather than position alone. (NVE)


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## Aurelino

Here's an article on the trade.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...ur/stories/102003dnspomavstrade.1f334492.html

Great for the mavs but why would Boston do it?

Beats me. Yeh the Mavs would be scary


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## shazha

im a lafenz fan, but what the hell is boston thinking!!! At least ask for nash as well.

All i can say is, thank god i didnt pick walker in my fantasy team, i had high hopes for him this season playing more efficiently. But now i think he'll be run'n'gunnin with the mavs.

bad trade even for dallas i think, too many gunners.


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## bdance

Heh, Dallas fans don't seem to realize that a Cancer has just entered their system. Unless Dallas gets to play with two balls from here on out they've got a problem. Good riddance from a life-long Celtics fan. We'll miss Delk though.


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## shazha

actually now that i think about it... i like it.... SHINE KENDRICK SHINE!!!!

perkins finaly has a chance to prove himself. He was my sleeper of the draft. 

i was looking forward to antoine shifting to sf and perkins playing PF but oh well!!! 


man this trade is :jawdrop:


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## Dre

2003 Dallas Mavericks: When it rains, it pours....

I like this deal a lot....ainge is pretty dumb for making this deal, but I'm not rooting for them....

:bbanana:


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## Charlotte_______

Weren't they really high on Welsch? And they just trade him? Whats up with that?


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## Dre

How would you like Antoine Walker as a 6th man....we now have to be the deepest in the league....


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## DetBNyce

Why would Boston do this? It makes no sense, somebody from the East just moved up into Boston's spot.


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## LionOfJudah

Watch Raef wreck shop in the east this year.... Hell Brad Miller got to the all star game, guess Raef will take his place.


I see this trade as a stepping stone to another trade, or another crazy *** nelly line up creating more mismatches than a clown's outfit...


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## futuristxen

I want to see this team:
Nash
Finley
Jamison
Toine
Dirk

They'd average like a million points a game. They may not be able to defend Shaq. But who's he going to guard? Jamison, I guess?


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## DetBNyce

Yea that team looks lke it would score about 150 pts/gm... These West teams mainly the Kings, Mavs, Lakers, and T'Wolves can line up 3 or 4 potential/former/ or current all-stars on the court at the same time, for each team. :yes:


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## Charlotte_______

Why..Why..Why must the East make the West even better!?


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## MemphisX

All I know is 2 more members of the lEastern Conference All Star team moved out West and with the Hornets move two more(Davis, Mashburn) should be moving over.


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## Philo

You can keep Walker. Let the youth move East.


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## LionOfJudah

Even though the Mavs are over the salary cap, I'm starting to think Cuban has a good plan here. Loads of offense and big names drives up ticket sales. Along with having 5-6 jerseys flying off the shelves with all the hype being built from having high finals hopes this year. At this rate he could make more money even with one of the larger payrolls in the NBA.


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## shazha

you know what i just realised, this sounds like a really dumb deal for danny A to do. But when u think about it the situation at dallas just wasnt right for lafrenz he was tearing it up in denver not just sittting on the arc.

Now it has to make u think boston know something we dont. Either vin baker is better than he seems or they have alot of faith in my sleeper kendrick perkins. That bandon hunter guy cant be that good. 

I guess this clears up walkers comments towards marcus banks , Still gonna miss that guy, i think he really belonged as a celtic, hes the first all star player theyve had in years. im a big walker fan.


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## mavsman

> Originally posted by <b>Philo</b>!
> You can keep Walker. Let the youth move East.


Uh, Walker and Raef are both 27 years old. Maybe you are
refering to Welsh and Delk. Mills is near the end so I know you
aren't refering to him.


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## Julo

looking back at it, it seems that Payton and Malone have sparked quite the revolution


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## compsciguy78

I don't like this trade for the Mavs. They are getting rid of a solid big to take an overrated ballhog. I like tony delk, but I could care less about Antoine Walker. The Mavs have a damn good lineup as is. They need some more bigs who can play defense if LaFrentz leaves.


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## pizzoni

*I agree with Futuritxen*

I wanna see Nash, Finley, Jamison, Walker and Dirk togheter in the floor.

This is the only starting five in the league where every one is a good at least in the 3pt shooting.

Jamison, Dirk and Walker are capable rebounder and Finley and Nash are capable perimeter defender....

This team could be really REALLY fun to watch.


Pizzoni


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## Louie

I really am having trouble understanding Dallas's moves this offseason. First they trade their best fourth quarter performer for a non-defending tweener with poor shot selection who doesn't fill their biggest needs. Then they trade their only true post defender for another non-defending tweener with poor shot selection who doesn't fill their biggest needs. Sure, they're incredibly talented, but unless they've got another move up their sleeve I really don't see how this gets Dallas any closer to a title.


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## MemphisX

Man, this team is going to win the NBA Live title easily :laugh:


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## Ballscientist

the reason: Danny Ainge don't like Walker, period.


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## mavsman

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> I really am having trouble understanding Dallas's moves this offseason. First they trade their best fourth quarter performer for a non-defending tweener with poor shot selection who doesn't fill their biggest needs. Then they trade their only true post defender for another non-defending tweener with poor shot selection who doesn't fill their biggest needs. Sure, they're incredibly talented, but unless they've got another move up their sleeve I really don't see how this gets Dallas any closer to a title.


Clearly you know nothing about the Mavericks if you think that
they were not in need of a small forward. Finley needed to move
back to SG which is his natural position. Jamison was a great
fit for that position. And just because the Mavs did not get
a big center does not mean that they did not fill some holes that
they had. How was LaFrentz thier only true post defender?

There are so many people who blasted LaFrentz as being soft
as a noodle. He was foul machine last year. I think he was a
decent player but he is not a true NBA center. Did the Mavs pick
up a center in the deal, no. But they did improve thier rebounding
and passing with Walker, yes. Not to mention that Walker is
a scorer.

To be honest I believe that once the Mavericks saw what
Fortson can do for them they decided that LaFrentz was
expendable. Fortson who is also not a center can rebound
better than Raef. All of a sudden Raef was going to find it 
hard to get on the floor with this team. Now they picked up a
former All-Star who has a lifetime 20+ ppg and 8.5 rpg. And they
got him for Raef who was not going to be able to get on the
floor a whole lot with this team.

They still need a good post defender but Raef was not it.

Whether or not this gets them closer to the title remains to be
seen. Whether or not they got more talent there is no question.


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## Jonathan Watters

I don't know what this trade does for either team, 

BUT...

Does anybody else think that this trade is Danny Ainge giving Vin Baker a vote of confidence?


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## OG

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> I don't know what this trade does for either team,
> 
> BUT...
> 
> Does anybody else think that this trade is Danny Ainge giving Vin Baker a vote of confidence?


no doubt, i think ainge must have a lot of confidence in baker to make this move.. i don't think it'll be that bad for boston.. raef will tear it up in the east, pierce takes over the team completely, young PGs can grow... i guess delk would've been a nice mentor tho.


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## Kmasonbx

I don't know why so many people think this is a good trade for Dallas, I think it was a dumb trade. Now they have no shot blockers on the team besides Bradley, and he can't do anything else, they have no size, you can't start Fortson at center in the West, they are going to get killed on the boards and points in the paint. You can have all the finesse players you want, but come playoff time toughness wins. Nobody on that team plays anything that resembles good defense, with the exception of Najera and Finley. With Walker on the team your going to have 1 more person who wants 20 shots a game and 8 3s a game, when he doesn't get that there will be problems, and will he be cool with coming off the bench, if Nelson chooses to use him in that role. Celts know they aren't going to win the championship this year, so why act like they are, they got Welsch and 1st round pick, they are building for the future. They now have 1 center piece, Pierce, and everybody is going to look to him for leadership, and don't forget Pierce and Lafrentz were college teammates, so there is a prior relationship and good chemistry there.


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## KG_And1

Who is going to play Center for the Mavs? I don't know what Dallas is doing here, but they were fine with Jamison, Dirk, Nash, and Finley. All they needed was a Center...and they didn't get that.

No doubt that this team is freakishly good, but the question still is....who is going to play Center? Dirk? Antoine Walker? 

If Fortson...who will be coming off the bench? 3-time All Star Antoine Walker? Can he handle a lesser role? He already tried stealing the show from Pierce in Boston....

I like this deal for the Celtics though. Paul Pierce will indefinately be the go-to-guy now that Walker is gone. I see Pierce puttin' up 30 PPG and puttin' his game up another level or two.


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## Julo

> Originally posted by <b>KG_And1</b>!
> Who is going to play Center for the Mavs? I don't know what Dallas is doing here, but they were fine with Jamison, Dirk, Nash, and Finley. All they needed was a Center...and they didn't get that.
> 
> No doubt that this team is freakishly good, but the question still is....who is going to play Center? Dirk? Antoine Walker?
> 
> If Fortson...who will be coming off the bench? 3-time All Star Antoine Walker? Can he handle a lesser role? He already tried stealing the show from Pierce in Boston....
> 
> I like this deal for the Celtics though. Paul Pierce will indefinately be the go-to-guy now that Walker is gone. I see Pierce puttin' up 30 PPG and puttin' his game up another level or two.


I think it's gonna be Dirk and Fortson sharing time @ the center spot. Good call on PP, I think he can put up 30 now with Delk and Twoine gone. Lafrentz could put up big numbers too, but to be honest, I think this trade hurts both teams... 

the last thing Dallas needs is another player who needs the ball in his hands. I guess they did unload Lafrentz's 60 mil tho... 

Boston is gonna have an even harder time finding offense. They were somewhere near the bottom of the league in PPG last year, and now they just lost a player who took 20 shots a game. Even if Pierce scores 30 PPG, other players will have to step up. And that's going to be asking a lot out of mediocre players like Eric Williams Vin Baker, Jumaine Jones, and Walter McCarty... it doesn't help that they lost JR Bremer and Shammond Williams either


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## chapi

boston just removed themselves from the playoffs.

nice team without a pointguard and emotional leader....


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## JRose5

> Originally posted by <b>chapi</b>!
> emotional leader....


Thats Pierce's job.

But point guard I agree, Delk was big for them.


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## Crossword

Thank you Boston for giving the Raps a much better chance at making the playoffs!

By the way, I wonder if Ainge would trade Pierce to us for AD and MoPete? Hell, after this trade I think it's certainly possible! 

Sorry Celts fans, you're screwed. As a Raptor fan I'd like to say welcome to the lottery - from the playoffs!


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## futuristxen

WHO NEEDS A CENTER?!

Seriously. The mavs throw a five of Dirk, Nash, Finley, Jamison and Walker--any team that tries to play this team with a center is going to be abused.

Can you imagine Shaq trying to guard any of those guys on the perimeter? Yeah on defense if you're the mavs, you have a problem, however, it's not like Raef as a shaq stopper anyhow.

I think the Mavs are just going to try and outscore everybody they play this season. They could very well end up with the best record in the NBA this year because of that. But come playoffs, things could get sticky.

I think this is an excellent move by Cuban and the Mavs. As a fan of basketball, I'm very happy about the type of games we could see this season with the Mavs.

As far as the celts. This makes this totally Paul Pierce's team. The question is, is he good enough to do what AI and Mcgrady do? I don't think he is, and I think the Celtics will miss the playoffs this year. But with a high lottery pick, the Celtics could be right back in the thick of things come next year for many years to come. And yeah, I think this is a vote of confidence in Vin Baker. We'll see how that works out.


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## Crossword

Who cares if Pierce & Lafrentz were teammates in college? In college you can win games scoring 70 points... you can't in the NBA! They lose about 15 ppg in this trade, unless Vin Baker can makeup the difference... and I don't htink he will.

Again, thank you Boston for giving Toronto a free playoff spot!


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## Im The One

Ainge either

A. Has alot of faith in Banks,Baker, and Brown
B. Doesnt know what he's doing

Me thinks it is the later


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## MemphisX

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> WHO NEEDS A CENTER?!
> 
> Seriously. The mavs throw a five of Dirk, Nash, Finley, Jamison and Walker--any team that tries to play this team with a center is going to be abused.
> 
> Can you imagine Shaq trying to guard any of those guys on the perimeter? Yeah on defense if you're the mavs, you have a problem, however, it's not like Raef as a shaq stopper anyhow.
> 
> I think the Mavs are just going to try and outscore everybody they play this season. They could very well end up with the best record in the NBA this year because of that. But come playoffs, things could get sticky.
> 
> I think this is an excellent move by Cuban and the Mavs. As a fan of basketball, I'm very happy about the type of games we could see this season with the Mavs.
> 
> As far as the celts. This makes this totally Paul Pierce's team. The question is, is he good enough to do what AI and Mcgrady do? I don't think he is, and I think the Celtics will miss the playoffs this year. But with a high lottery pick, the Celtics could be right back in the thick of things come next year for many years to come. And yeah, I think this is a vote of confidence in Vin Baker. We'll see how that works out.


LOL...this is what insane Nellie is thinking but it doesn't work. The only problem is the other team can shoot 3's also *but* they will have rebounders in to put their misses back. Fortson struggles to defend Western conference bigs. The Mavs lineup will be easier to defend than most think:

Spurs can throw out Parker, Manu, 6'10 Hedo, 6'8 Rose, 6'10 Horry, 7'0 Duncan and not be at a loss for defending their quickness....

the problem is Walker and Jamison are not as deadly as Dirk and can be defended by SFs or PFs more easily. However, Dallas does not even have speed bumps for their biggest nightmares: Duncan and Shaq. If you think you are going to win playoff series doubling and tripling those two when their supporting casts are as good if not better than Dallas' you are nutz.

I know it is going to be a great season.....


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## Flava D

*Ah no me gusta!*

Well having, started following the celts two years before Toine was brought aboard, all I can say is that I am dissapointed by this deal. Dallas may have lost an emotional leader in nick V, but they just got a guy who bleeds winning. If anyone in the league wants to win its this guy. From the celts standpoint, Welsch could be a solid addition, letting us play big and still run transition offense. Raef has a chance to prove himself, but I've always seen him as being soft especially if they play him at the center. Just because you can block a ton of shots doesn't mean you're a good defender (see sean bradley) This deal could let a guy like perkins have a chance to be this years Amare Stoudamire, but overall it looks like the C's may have killed their championship hopes for a few seasons. Hopefully this deal won't make pierce mad or we could be back in mid 1990s form.


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## MJG

> Boston: They didn't want to pay Antoine the money he was looking for in an extension. So they tried to get the best deal they could for him. The team likes LaFrentz and thinks he could put up 15 and 8 like he did in Denver in the East. They also believe Vin Baker is ready to begin starting at power forward this year. Welsh is a nice bonus. Mills saves them $6.6 million next year. The future first rounder, I'm told, will be a pick Dallas acquired from another team.
> 
> Dallas: Same thing that happened with Antawn Jamison. When someone offers you a sweetheart deal, you take it, no questions asked. They don't need Antoine, but they got him very cheaply. If he doesn't fit, either 'Toine or 'Twan will be great trade bait.


LINK 

That's from a Chad Ford chat, going on right now. Here's another little snippet that I thought was interesting.



> Has anyone realized that the Mavs have turned Juwan Howard into Antawn Jamison, Antoine Walker, and Danny Fortson? Is it just me or is Cuban a genius?


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## HKF

I like the trade for Boston for two reasons: 

1. Antoine Walker refuses to get with the program about running and forcing bad shots. In the preseason games Tommy Heinsohn commented on it quite a bit and he just wasn't on the same page with everyone else. He still was dogging it. Good riddance to him.

2. Paul Pierce is now the undisputed leader of this team. He is in charge and will run the show, which is what he wants and everyone in the organization wants. It was basically time for Antoine to go, no more, no less. His time was up.

Celtics line-up isn't so bad if the guys run like Ainge wants and Mills comes off the books for 6 million next year.

PG-Banks/James/Welsch
SG-Pierce/Brown/Welsch
SF-Williams/Jones/Mills
PF-LaFrentz/McCarty/Baker/Perkins
C-Battie/Baker/Blount/Perkins

I think Welsch can be a good third guard and should thrive in an uptempo system. He wasn't going to get many minutes on Dallas anyway, not with Howard, Daniels and Best there (now Delk also). But in Boston he could beat out Mike James for the backup role.

I like this deal for the C's.


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## Kmasonbx

Some you don't get it, Walker shot 38% from the field, and its not like that was a 1 year thing, he does it every year. He takes 8 3s a game, and he is a big forward, and he doesn't even shoot a good percentage he makes less than 3 a game. Delk also shoots a lot of 3s, Boston leads the league in 3 pointers attempted every year by far, and I know they don't lead in makes by much if they do at all, and they shoot one of the worst percentages in the league if not the worst. Now they get Lafrentz who will get 15 and 8 like somebody mentioned before, and you have Baker who seemingly has rededicated himself, and he should put up similar #s, Marcus Banks definitely can do what Delk did, and Pierce may score 28 or 29 a game this year, I don't think he'll get 30. They will score just as many points if not more, because they will take better shots minus Walker. And like I said the Celts aren't winning a championship anytime soon, so why not build towards the future, and Walker is never going to be on a championship team. He can't guard anyone, so what if you score 120 points, when they play the Wolves, Lakers, Kings and Spurs they'll give up 130. Sure they'll beat all the other teams and may even win 60 games again, but come playoff time it'll be the same story, you can't win if you can't guard anyone. Don't forget the only reason they got past Portland and Sacramento was because of injuries. And they still needed 7 to get past both.

Also remember the other 4 contenders in the West have 2 post presences how will the Mavs guard, Shaq and Malone, KG and Rasho, Duncan and Rasho and Brad Miller and C Web? The answer is they won't be able to. Mavs fans can comeback with how will other teams guard them. KG has a much better chance at slowing down Dirk than Dirk has of slowing him down, and if they put Walker on KG, thats even worse. And it'll be the same with all the other good teams in the West.


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## MightyReds2020

Looks like the Mavs are trying to break the theory that defense & toughness win championships...


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## JuniorNoboa

Horrible trade for the Mavericks. Antoine is an offence killer.

He takes selfish shots, and when you have alot of weapons on Dallas already, it will just lead to more dumb shots by the rest of the team.

Antoine Walker is the most overrated player of our generation. 

This is a major blow to the Mavericks chances. Sad to say, but I would like Mavs chances better if Antoine suffered a season ending injury.


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## mavsman

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> 
> 
> LOL...this is what insane Nellie is thinking but it doesn't work. The only problem is the other team can shoot 3's also *but* they will have rebounders in to put their misses back. Fortson struggles to defend Western conference bigs. The Mavs lineup will be easier to defend than most think:


Why is that because you said it. What the heck do you know
about whether or not the Mavs will be easier to defend. I have
no idea how this team will come together but one thing I do know
is that you have no clue how tough this team will be to defend.



> However, Dallas does not even have speed bumps for their biggest nightmares: Duncan and Shaq. If you think you are going to win playoff series doubling and tripling those two when their supporting casts are as good if not better than Dallas' you are nutz.


And what they had a Shaq or Duncan stopper in LaFrentz? Raef
was usually out of the game in the 1st 5 minutes when playing
those guys because he picked up 3 fouls already.

No the Mavs did not find a great inside defensive presence but
they added a 3-time All-Star with many skills to an already
very talented team. And they gave up a guy who was probably
going to have a tough time finding minutes on this team.

Sorry but the point is that thier supporting casts are not as good
as Dallas'. This Dallas team is going to be a nightmare to match
up against. Whether or not that will get the Mavs ahead of
the Spurs or Lakers is still to be determined but once again
they have made a move that makes the team better.
Not perfect but better.



> I know it is going to be a great season.....


Now this I agree with.


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## reHEATed

I kind of like this deal for the Celts. For me it depends on how good Welsch becomes. LaFrenz will be one of the best centers in the east and Mills saves the money. And a first rounder all for Antoine. To me, it seems like Boston may end of getting the better of this deal. I dont think this year, but imo in a couple years looking back, Boston improves in the long run.


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## PatBateman

It is nice to see posts from people who aren't fans of the mavs and C's. I am a big celtics fan and balked at the trade at first, but now that I have seen it put into perspective by people with an unbiased view I am able to get a better handle on it. keep the replies coming!


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## Big John

How did the Mavs get worse defensively by adding Walker? In fact, Antoine is an excellent defender (just ask Jermaine O'Neal) with one of the best pairs of hands in the league.

You can knock his shot selection all you want (although no one complains when they go in) but the criticism of his defense is unjustified. Remember that with Walker playing 42 minutes a game the Celtics were one of the better half court defensive teams in the league, and were in the top 5 two years ago.


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## Anima

I think it's a good trade for Boston. People are talking about Raef like he can't score but the fact is he IS a good offensive player and will put up good numbers in Boston that he wasn't able to do in Dallas because there just wasn't enough shots to go around. It also gives more shots to younger players like Brown. 

I also think this trade will help Boston's defense. No Raef isn't a very good one-on-one defender but he is one of the best help defenders in the NBA which fits in O'Brian's style.

All in all I think Boston will surpise some people this year and make the playoffs.


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## INTELLECT

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> KG has a much better chance at slowing down Dirk than Dirk has of slowing him down, and if they put Walker on KG, thats even worse. And it'll be the same with all the other good teams in the West.


obiously you don't remember dirk averaging 35 against kg last year. and embarrassing him in round 1 of the playoffs 2 years ago huh? Kg cannot GUARD DIRK. nor can he guard walker. nor can he guard jamison. Wolves can lay it down. Spurs can lay it down. It's between the mavs and lakers


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## jericho

While I don't love this trade for the Celtics, I can see how it might have some positive ripples effects over the next few years. 

Dallas obviously wins on the basis of pure talent changing hands. But how in the heck will all their players co-exist? Their most logical starting lineup, with Nowitzki at center, gives them 5 starters who could legitimately average 20+ ppg and whose offensive rhythms depend on a certain number of touches. 

I wouldn't be terribly surprised to see either Jamison or Walker switch teams again mid-season...


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## chapi

i think many of you underrate a.Walker.

he was the emotional leader for the celts (pierce was the go to guy but not the leader)

his shots come from the system boston was playing.

he is good defender and good rebounder. has excelent ballhandling and passing skills.


that was great deal for mavs. they replaced nick (their leader) with even better player who has similar style of play (kinda funny considering walkers PF and nick PG) who gives them more size and rebounds also.


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## Kmasonbx

> Originally posted by <b>INTELLECT</b>!
> 
> 
> obiously you don't remember dirk averaging 35 against kg last year. and embarrassing him in round 1 of the playoffs 2 years ago huh? Kg cannot GUARD DIRK. nor can he guard walker. nor can he guard jamison. Wolves can lay it down. Spurs can lay it down. It's between the mavs and lakers


Don't forget KG had to do everything for WOlves, now he doesn't have to exert himself so much on offense, and have more energy on defense. You seem like a Mavs fan if your saying KG can't guard Jamison or Walker, thats just crazy talk. KG is one of the best defenders in the league, and you think he cant guard slow A Walker, and Jamison who is 6'8 and is best around the basket. This trade officially makes the Mavs the 5th best team in the West, they'll win their 55 games and lose in the first round.



> How did the Mavs get worse defensively by adding Walker? In fact, Antoine is an excellent defender (just ask Jermaine O'Neal) with one of the best pairs of hands in the league.


Walker shut down O'neal in the playoffs, your not serious are you, O'neal averaged 22.8 points, 17.5 rebounds and 3 blocks a game, pretty good numbers. In the second round Kenyon Martin averaged 20.5 points and 8.3 rebounds, and we know how he shut Walker down. Walker is not a good defender, the Mavs are worse after this trade, and at the end of the season the Mavs will be out of the playoffs again, this time in the first round.


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## The_Franchise

> Originally posted by <b>Kmasonbx</b>!
> Some you don't get it, Walker shot 38% from the field, and its not like that was a 1 year thing, he does it every year. He takes 8 3s a game, and he is a big forward, and he doesn't even shoot a good percentage he makes less than 3 a game. Delk also shoots a lot of 3s, Boston leads the league in 3 pointers attempted every year by far, and I know they don't lead in makes by much if they do at all, and they shoot one of the worst percentages in the league if not the worst. Now they get Lafrentz who will get 15 and 8 like somebody mentioned before, and you have Baker who seemingly has rededicated himself, and he should put up similar #s, Marcus Banks definitely can do what Delk did, and Pierce may score 28 or 29 a game this year, I don't think he'll get 30. They will score just as many points if not more, because they will take better shots minus Walker. And like I said the Celts aren't winning a championship anytime soon, so why not build towards the future, and Walker is never going to be on a championship team. He can't guard anyone, so what if you score 120 points, when they play the Wolves, Lakers, Kings and Spurs they'll give up 130. Sure they'll beat all the other teams and may even win 60 games again, but come playoff time it'll be the same story, you can't win if you can't guard anyone. Don't forget the only reason they got past Portland and Sacramento was because of injuries. And they still needed 7 to get past both.
> 
> Also remember the other 4 contenders in the West have 2 post presences how will the Mavs guard, Shaq and Malone, KG and Rasho, Duncan and Rasho and Brad Miller and C Web? The answer is they won't be able to. Mavs fans can comeback with how will other teams guard them. KG has a much better chance at slowing down Dirk than Dirk has of slowing him down, and if they put Walker on KG, thats even worse. And it'll be the same with all the other good teams in the West.


http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?postid=687444#post687444


----------



## MemphisX

Anyone who thinks giving up an All Star (Walker) to get a marginal starter and a marginal player while taking on more salary makes Boston better is crazy. Maybe Dallas didn't get much better but I know Boston looks a lot like a lottery team. Heck, the Magic and T Mac are barely making the playoffs with more talent then the C's have on their roster. I think Ainge has just traded himself into the lottery unless Vin Baker reverts back into his pre-Seattle days which he is about 4-5 years removed from. Remember, Vin Baker was a player back when Shawn Kemp was the Rainman.

1. New Jersey
2. Detroit
3. Indiana
4. New Orleans
5. Philly
6. Orlando
7. Indiana
8. Boston or Toronto or Miami or Chicago or NYK or Chicago


----------



## ErikDaniels14UK

im sick of everyone bashing and bashing on walker.............he might not be shooting great but this is the preseason, with walker going to the mavs he wont have the same shot selection due to the players around him,and also due to players around him he'll average more assists(last year he led the celts in assists and this year he'll exceed)He might be one of the best passing forwards in the nba; He also gives this team more rebounding and a leader on and off the court


----------



## Showtime84'

Like I've said tons of times before, the only 2 teams that should concern the Mavs are the Lakers and Spurs, that's it. The Kings got a little thinner this off season while their health still remains a concern and the Wolves still have some major questions to answer before they join the elite 4 in the West. By the way KG IS NOT a dominating post prescence for God's sake, that's just ridiculous, if he were the Wolves would've gotten out of the first round ages ago!

The problem with the Mavs is not offense, defense or quemistry, it's REBOUNDING!!!!!

The NBA is so bad offensively at present times that most teams would struggle to put up 95 points in an empty gym! So the Mavs really don't need to have a spectacular defense to be effective, in todays' league teams stop THEMSELVES!

Knowing that, you need to have great defensive rebounding to really benefit from all the bricks that are gonna be shot and that's being Dallas' weak area for the past 2 seasons.

That's what cost them the championship last year. It wasn't the fact that they couldn't stop the Spurs, they did actually, forcing them into horrible shots in some stretches. But the Spurs made up for that by TOTALLY dominating them on the glass. Great defensive stances by the Mavs turned into short put backs and back breaking 3 point shots in a matter of seconds.

If the Mavs can improve even slightly on their defensive rebounding and maintain their offensive firepower while also remaining healthy there is no reason why they shouldn't win 60+ games, take home court and ride it all the way to the Finals.


----------



## Yao Mania

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> Anyone who thinks giving up an All Star (Walker) to get a marginal starter and a marginal player while taking on more salary makes Boston better is crazy. Maybe Dallas didn't get much better but I know Boston looks a lot like a lottery team. Heck, the Magic and T Mac are barely making the playoffs with more talent then the C's have on their roster. I think Ainge has just traded himself into the lottery unless Vin Baker reverts back into his pre-Seattle days which he is about 4-5 years removed from. Remember, Vin Baker was a player back when Shawn Kemp was the Rainman.
> 
> 1. New Jersey
> 2. Detroit
> 3. Indiana
> 4. New Orleans
> 5. Philly
> 6. Orlando
> 7. Indiana
> 8. Boston or Toronto or Miami or Chicago or NYK or Chicago


Just wanted to point out you listed Indiana twice on there... I'm going w/ Toronto and Boston in the 7th and 8th


----------



## JuniorNoboa

I don't see a player taking and missing dumb shots as a leader on the court.


----------



## ErikDaniels14UK

*edited: Attacking the poster isn't tolerated* a leader dont have to good at everything (hes shooting precentage last year was a little above 38 and people act like their is a huge diffrence between 40 and 38) this season walker wont have to listen to obryans or pitinos system(the offense when u take alot of 3s) walker will be better bcz he wont be the only one (or two) people asked to score. he'll be able to use his passing skills(one of the best forwards @ passing) to get to these good scorers(/finshers), he'll also provide this team with more rebounding in which they need walker can average 8 boards or more a game;also with walker youve got a guy that may get a triple double at any point


----------



## futuristxen

when you consider Dirk and Walker's ball handling and passing skills, Nelly could and probably will, throw a lineup like this out there at times:

Dirk
Walker
Jamison
Fortson
Bradley

Bringing new meaning to going big.

And you know Nelly will do crazy stuff like this. That lineup would probably do pretty good with the rebounding, no?


----------



## mrsister

> Originally posted by <b>ErikDaniels14UK</b>!
> *edited* a leader dont have to good at everything (hes shooting precentage last year was a little above 38 and people act like their is a huge diffrence between 40 and 38) this season walker wont have to listen to obryans or pitinos system(the offense when u take alot of 3s) walker will be better bcz he wont be the only one (or two) people asked to score. he'll be able to use his passing skills(one of the best forwards @ passing) to get to these good scorers(/finshers), he'll also provide this team with more rebounding in which they need walker can average 8 boards or more a game;also with walker youve got a guy that may get a triple double at any point


Exactly. Walker is adaptable. He didn't always take all those threes. He used to play in the post a lot more before the coaching change. He also took a backseat to Pierce. He's not as selfish as people think he is. He took a lot of shots because, other than Pierce, nobody else was taking them. He'd often end up taking a last second shot because everyone else passed it up. I don't think that will ever happen in Dallas. There are plenty of people who are more than happy to take the shot. I don't think he'll be happy at first when he gets to Dallas but not because he has to share the ball. It'll be because he gave his all as a Celtic and wanted to finish his career as one. The coaches and players loved him. It was the new manager who didn't.


----------



## Jacres318

of course all of the western conferance fans are saying te move sucks for the Mavs. Dallas had the best Team Chemistry in all of SPORTS! that was with NVE, Nash, Finley and Dirk who can all drop 40 any night. they ddn't just form that way, it's the coach(nellie). We don't have Flip freaking Saunders coaching our team. We have a guy that has made chemistry and EGOS fit and work.

Our zone Defense did pretty good in the playoffs, and you'll see if you look at the stat. That more than half of the teams points scored against us were second chance points. We had HORRIBLE rebounding! Mark Cuban knows this and that's why he added guys who can play in the run n gun and were great rebounders, not to mention he added a fierce one in Fortson.

Antoine Walker had no talent around him in Boston. Of course Peirce, but since they didn't have a PG. When Walker takes the ball down court and they're double teaming Peirce and the person open is a guy who can't hit water if he fell out of a boat, of course he's going to force a few shots.

Almost Everyone here has played basketball. If you pass it to a guy several times and he air balls it and doesn't make his shots. Of course you're going to take every chance at shooting the ball. Walker doesn't have a bad shot selection he has common sense!

I'm not worried about chemistry problems ith Nellie at the helm and since everyone of his teammates are unslefish, you have to think it'll rub off on him. Come on, this trade also allows us to resign Nash for long term.


----------



## Stinger

> Originally posted by <b>Jacres318</b>!
> Come on, this trade also allows us to resign Nash for long term.


I thought there was a limit for the cap, or is it because he has the Larry Bird rights?


Last year Dallas' zone defense was good. It caused teams to miss shots. You don't need a defense that completely shut down an offense, because frankly there's no team that can do that. All you need to do is make the other guy miss, rebound, and then score. Dallas had two thirds of it last year, I believe that they might have all 3 parts of it this year (especially the scoring part).


----------



## BrYaNBaIlEy06

stupid trade


----------



## reHEATed

> Originally posted by <b>BrYaNBaIlEy06</b>!
> stupid trade


can u explain why


----------



## Johnny Mac

They got rid of a good shotblocker and rebounder for another scorer. 

Not sure the Logic in that, considering that the team that will beat them in the playoffs will be a team with either Duncan or Shaq.


----------



## HKF

> Originally posted by <b>MemphisX</b>!
> Anyone who thinks giving up an All Star (Walker) to get a marginal starter and a marginal player while taking on more salary makes Boston better is crazy. Maybe Dallas didn't get much better but I know Boston looks a lot like a lottery team. Heck, the Magic and T Mac are barely making the playoffs with more talent then the C's have on their roster. I think Ainge has just traded himself into the lottery unless Vin Baker reverts back into his pre-Seattle days which he is about 4-5 years removed from. Remember, Vin Baker was a player back when Shawn Kemp was the Rainman.
> 
> 1. New Jersey
> 2. Detroit
> 3. Indiana
> 4. New Orleans
> 5. Philly
> 6. Orlando
> 7. Indiana
> 8. Boston or Toronto or Miami or Chicago or NYK or Chicago


Ummm. you put Indiana twice and Chicago or Chicago. Maybe you need to proof read your posts before you post them.


----------



## Jacres318

raef averaged 5 rebnds, toine averaged 7.5, and Raef isn't in the universe of a great shot blocker. What's your logic?


----------



## INTELLECT

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> They got rid of a good shotblocker and rebounder for another scorer.
> 
> Not sure the Logic in that, considering that the team that will beat them in the playoffs will be a team with either Duncan or Shaq.


hmm raef averaged 9 points 5 boards and a block a game last year. And he did what so great again for this deal to "suck for the mavs?"


----------



## jericho

> Originally posted by <b>Jacres318</b>!
> raef averaged 5 rebnds, toine averaged 7.5, and Raef isn't in the universe of a great shot blocker. What's your logic?


La Frentz didn't get much playing time last year. He's shown in the past that he's capable of 8 rpg, and 2-3 bpg. He could turn out to be a better interior defender than Walker has been. 

Having said that, what makes me nervous as a Celtics fan is that La Frentz didn't really earn too many minutes the last couple of years. His performance on the court has always been tied closely to his confidence, and Dan Issel really messed him up in that regard in Denver. Rather than encouraging the guy and supporting his development, I always had the impression Issel emphasized the negatives and cut the guy to ribbons psychologically. Some players just never recover from that kind of treatment. The question is, will Raef? 

Between La Frentz and Baker, the Celtics have 2 very interesting salvage projects on their hands. Between them, they could post 32 ppg, 16 rpg, and 4 bpg. Or, all the wheels could come off and they could post half of that. Most likely, something in between will happen.


----------



## aquaitious

All I gotta say is this to Dallas fans, if Walker always find a way to give Pierce the ball, then imagin what he'll do on the Mavs? Everywhere he passes to he'll get an assist. Oh BTW Walker is the most selfish playin in the league.  

Mavs fans are happy to get rid of Reaf's and Mill's contract.


----------



## Anima

> Originally posted by <b>jericho</b>!
> 
> 
> La Frentz didn't get much playing time last year. He's shown in the past that he's capable of 8 rpg, and 2-3 bpg. He could turn out to be a better interior defender than Walker has been.
> 
> Having said that, what makes me nervous as a Celtics fan is that La Frentz didn't really earn too many minutes the last couple of years. His performance on the court has always been tied closely to his confidence, and Dan Issel really messed him up in that regard in Denver. Rather than encouraging the guy and supporting his development, I always had the impression Issel emphasized the negatives and cut the guy to ribbons psychologically. Some players just never recover from that kind of treatment. The question is, will Raef?
> 
> Between La Frentz and Baker, the Celtics have 2 very interesting salvage projects on their hands. Between them, they could post 32 ppg, 16 rpg, and 4 bpg. Or, all the wheels could come off and they could post half of that. Most likely, something in between will happen.


Most of the reason Raef didn't play much last year is because he got into foul trouble trying to block the shots of guards that managed to penetrate. He rarely got out of the 1st without 2 fouls. The same thing happened to Bradley and has been happening to Fortson so far in preseason.

I don't think that will be has much of a problem in Boston because there guards and the team overall are better defensively.


----------



## Louie

> originally posted by *mavsman*
> Clearly you know nothing about the Mavericks if you think that
> they were not in need of a small forward. Finley needed to move
> back to SG which is his natural position. Jamison was a great
> fit for that position. And just because the Mavs did not get
> a big center does not mean that they did not fill some holes that
> they had. How was LaFrentz thier only true post defender?
> 
> There are so many people who blasted LaFrentz as being soft
> as a noodle. He was foul machine last year. I think he was a
> decent player but he is not a true NBA center. Did the Mavs pick
> up a center in the deal, no. But they did improve thier rebounding
> and passing with Walker, yes. Not to mention that Walker is
> a scorer.
> 
> To be honest I believe that once the Mavericks saw what
> Fortson can do for them they decided that LaFrentz was
> expendable. Fortson who is also not a center can rebound
> better than Raef. All of a sudden Raef was going to find it
> hard to get on the floor with this team. Now they picked up a
> former All-Star who has a lifetime 20+ ppg and 8.5 rpg. And they
> got him for Raef who was not going to be able to get on the
> floor a whole lot with this team.
> 
> They still need a good post defender but Raef was not it.
> 
> Whether or not this gets them closer to the title remains to be
> seen. Whether or not they got more talent there is no question.


Whoa, a guy that types in Iambic Pentameter.  

Well, clearly _you_ know nothing about the Mavs if you don't realize that their real need *obviously* was, and still is, a true post presence. LaFraentz wasn't quite that, but he was still a helluva lot closer than either Walker or Jamison. Their second biggest need was better defense, and this move actually hurts them in that regard because Najera will now be bumped from the starting lineup in favor of the non-defending, shot-happy Jamison. Najera may not be the most glamorous player, but in terms of player productivity index (that is, how much his team outscores opponents when he's on the floor- basically the best indicator we have for judging a player's contributions), he is one of the top players in the league. Why? He simply does the things that help your team win. Setting good picks, chasing down loose balls, playing actual *defense* (a foreign concept for the likes of Walker and Jamison, two of the most overrated star-level players in the league IMO). 

This move does absolutely *nothing* to improve the Mavs' title hopes- I can't wait to see Shaq and Duncan being guarded by the likes of Danny Fortson and Shawn Bradley during the 2004 playoffs.:laugh: 

Can you say "splat"?


----------



## Johnny Mac

Last season isnt the best way to determine Raefs stat input. His career numbers show that he is a good shotblocker. 

his career numbers: 
29 mins a game
12.2 points
7.1 rebounds
2.22 blocks

Hes averaged about 3 blocks a game in years where hes played 31 minutes a game or so. 

You cant compare Walkers numbers to Raefs simply for the fact that Walker played nearly DOUBLE the minutes. Surely Walker wont be playing 42 minutes a game in Dallas...

but anyways, Walker is the better player, theres no doubt. But my problem is the Mavericks not only ignoring their problems, but making them worse. Whos going to guard Shaq and Duncan? Jamison???


----------



## Johnny Mac

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> This move does absolutely *nothing* to improve the Mavs' title hopes- I can't wait to see Shaq and Duncan being guarded by the likes of Danny Fortson and Shawn Bradley during the 2004 playoffs.:laugh:


haha, I said the exact same thing about Shaq and Duncan in another forum earlier, and in my post just now above this one. Shaq could end up having one of those games where it looks like hes up against the Clippers in the last game of the regular season. Duncan will just have such a sick all around statline. 

I seriously look forward to it.


----------



## LionOfJudah

More than likely there will be another big trade here pretty soon, it completly depends on how Jamison and Walker pan out. 

It would be more exciting to see the 5 star line up, but Shaq could just run everyone over and not have anything called on him all night so there goes the chance of seeing some really entertaining team basketball this year :sour:


----------



## Minstrel

It's kind of interesting...far from getting tougher inside, the Mavericks have weakened themselves inside over the course of two deals...first dealing away Juwan Howard for Nick Van Excel. Say what you want about Howard not being nearly worth his deal at that time, but he played inside with more proficiency than anyone Dallas had then or now.

Then they deal LaFrentz, a guy who brought some amount of defense, for Walker, who brings none.

It's almost like, at some point, the collective thinking in the Mavericks' front office was: Look, we're never realistically going to be able to compete inside. Instead of having these half-measures, let's abandon the inside altogether and go purely perimeter and be the best there ever was outside.

And they're sure going broke for that.


----------



## beb0p

I was a little surprised when Boston traded away Joe Johnson. I almost laughed out my soda when I read they traded for Vin Baker. But now this is a little too much. LaFrentz is a solid player, but his long contract makes him a risk. Jirri Welsh is nothing more than a taller but streakier Jon Barry. If I were Ainge, I'd have demanded that Marquis Daniels, a potential sleeper, be included. 

At any rate, it wouldn't surprise me if Cuban is in the works to add a big man, either through FA or trade. They still have a couple spots open. I won't judge the Walker trade until Dallas either make or don't make a next move.


----------



## jericho

> The problem with the Mavs is not offense, defense or quemistry, it's REBOUNDING!!!!!


I agree that rebounding is a part of the hump the Mavs need to overcome. Fortson does give them a guy who can snarf up rebounds, but he generally hasn't proven himself to be a consistent defender or even-tempered teammate, so I think it remains to be seen how much playing time he'll actually get, especially with Walker, Jamison and Dirk all deserving major minutes.

A second big problem the team has had is post-up offense. This is why Jamison was brought in; he immediately becomes their best post-up scorer, which should open the floor up a bit more for their bombers when he's hot. 

But the third challenge, and this is where I disagree with you a bit, is their interior defense. The Mavericks rely on their ability to outgun other teams, but in the playoffs they'll meet with teams (especially the Lakers and the Spurs) who have the ability to slow it down and pound it inside. The Mavs are basically daring teams to beat them with dominant low-post scorers, and those two opponents certainly have big men who can carry teams in the playoffs. 

I think Dallas will be loads of fun to watch, and arguably now has the most talented starting five. But I'm not convinced they have the right balance of skills to go deeper in the playoffs yet. I would rather have seen them pick up a guy like Brian Grant, who muscles hard for rebounds, uses his body well in the paint, and blocks 1-2 shots a game, than Walker.


----------



## Jacres318

am i the only one who finds it hilarious, when two weeks ago Lafrentz was a soft feather inside and picked up basically 5 rebounds on accident and now he's a superb rebounder and we traded away our inside presence and ouyr only hope of guarding Shaq. :laugh: . 

When's the last time you've seen Raef play good D against Theo Ratliff? Antoine is 5x the defender than raef is, and is 10x the rebounder. Raef got ran over every time when e played Shaq, Duncan and picked up fouls by the second along the way. Fortson is our sarting center and Nellie said he would probably start over Raef anyway. we traded the highest payed bench player for a run andgun power foward. 

Jamison already said if it would help the team win he would comeoff the bench as the 6th man. shots per game is the most overrated stat in all of basketball. Walker led his team in ASSISTS! that really spells most selfsh! his assist and shots are high, because he's the pwer foward and point guard! It couldn't work chemistry wise with NVE and Lafrentz, IT DID. 

Nellie shouldv'e won the coach of the year! If anyone can he can, Chemistry is not a problem! Plus, If Dirkgoes down inthe playoffs, we aren't immediatly flushed down the toilet! We are lightyears ahead of the Spurs and T'wolves, now it's up to the Lakers.

I don't want hear the crying of Spurs fans. We were a Grampa away from game 7 WITH DIRK! Then Ya'll lost Robinson, which is more important than any player. Ya'll replaced a legend with RASHO? Ya'll didn't getbetter even with 20 mil to spend. 

That's for when a spurs fan says they are better than the Mavs.

P.S. Lafrentzwas nothing more than a pillow inside on defense AND rebounding. There is no way in hell you can say we are worse off with Fortson inside,considering he's light years ahead of Lafrentz in both defense and rebounding. Therefore quit with the we now suck inside the paint, if anything we got better!


----------



## mavsman

> Originally posted by <b>Jacres318</b>!
> am i the only one who finds it hilarious, when two weeks ago Lafrentz was a soft feather inside and picked up basically 5 rebounds on accident and now he's a superb rebounder and we traded away our inside presence and ouyr only hope of guarding Shaq. :laugh: .
> 
> When's the last time you've seen Raef play good D against Theo Ratliff? Antoine is 5x the defender than raef is, and is 10x the rebounder. Raef got ran over every time when e played Shaq, Duncan and picked up fouls by the second along the way. Fortson is our sarting center and Nellie said he would probably start over Raef anyway. we traded the highest payed bench player for a run andgun power foward.
> 
> Jamison already said if it would help the team win he would comeoff the bench as the 6th man. shots per game is the most overrated stat in all of basketball. Walker led his team in ASSISTS! that really spells most selfsh! his assist and shots are high, because he's the pwer foward and point guard! It couldn't work chemistry wise with NVE and Lafrentz, IT DID.
> 
> Nellie shouldv'e won the coach of the year! If anyone can he can, Chemistry is not a problem! Plus, If Dirkgoes down inthe playoffs, we aren't immediatly flushed down the toilet! We are lightyears ahead of the Spurs and T'wolves, now it's up to the Lakers.
> 
> I don't want hear the crying of Spurs fans. We were a Grampa away from game 7 WITH DIRK! Then Ya'll lost Robinson, which is more important than any player. Ya'll replaced a legend with RASHO? Ya'll didn't getbetter even with 20 mil to spend.
> 
> That's for when a spurs fan says they are better than the Mavs.
> 
> P.S. Lafrentzwas nothing more than a pillow inside on defense AND rebounding. There is no way in hell you can say we are worse off with Fortson inside,considering he's light years ahead of Lafrentz in both defense and rebounding. Therefore quit with the we now suck inside the paint, if anything we got better!


Jacres, you are not the only one who finds this hilarious. There
are just people out there who can't stand the success of the Mavs
and want to tear down anything they do as bad for the team.
I doubt they even really believe it. Its just that they want it to
be true so bad that they convince themselves that it is true.

I swear we could trade Shawn Bradley for Shaq and some posters
would say that we took on a bad contract for a guy who is nearing
the end of his career and that we lost some of our important
shot blocking capabilities.

Anyway every fan wants to see it through thier teams eyes.


----------



## Jacres318

> Originally posted by <b>mavsman</b>!
> 
> 
> I swear we could trade Shawn Bradley for Shaq and some posters
> would say that we took on a bad contract for a guy who is nearing
> the end of his career and that we lost some of our important
> shot blocking capabilities.
> 
> Anyway every fan wants to see it through thier teams eyes.



Couldn't have said it better.


----------



## jokeaward

This is ripe.

Dallas traded a center who could shoot the three without taking a load of shots, nab a few rebound, who share fouls with Bradley. They got a player at F, which is pretty much filled, let alone the team is pretty much filled besides a good center or solid bench (preferrably with a "bench" attitude, probably) player.

A Mavs player would preferrably be quick and have stamina, especially if SF is possible/probable. I don't know if Walker can do that. They won't stand around, so he'd better be in good shape.

??? Walker's good against J O'Neal? Anyway, he's no All-D team member and he'll get manhandled by west PFs, who don't peak with O'Neal or Martin.

Side-dishes: Delk was an okay pickup. He can score, and he'll definitely add to the 3-pt shots taken, just like in BOS. (Is that good or bad? We'll see. Just like all these "only one ball" issues. It's hard to predict.) The BOS pickups are decent. I guess.

Financially, it's good for the Mavs. They gave Lafrentz, but also gave up Mills. AW expires soon, with big space. But he'll probably just want a max deal from Cuban, anyway.

Oyy, all this "All-Offense"... Shaq can put up 40 or even 50 vs these Mavs, can Nash do it vice-versa? It's more collective for the Mavs, but look out. Duncan can definitely burn them, and if they try to stop him, the other Spurs will trounce them if they're up to it.

And my beloved Wolves? Well, we turned Joe Smith, Anthony Peeler, and a retiree into Sam Cassell and Latrell Sprewell, and we split with the Mavs last year, so I think we'll do pretty well. I'll also take Troy Hudson over Delk or Carter.


----------



## Jacres318

> Originally posted by <b>jokeaward</b>!
> This is ripe.
> 
> Dallas traded a center who could shoot the three without taking a load of shots, nab a few rebound, who share fouls with Bradley. They got a player at F, which is pretty much filled, let alone the team is pretty much filled besides a good center or solid bench (preferrably with a "bench" attitude, probably) player.
> 
> A Mavs player would preferrably be quick and have stamina, especially if SF is possible/probable. I don't know if Walker can do that. They won't stand around, so he'd better be in good shape.
> 
> ??? Walker's good against J O'Neal? Anyway, he's no All-D team member and he'll get manhandled by west PFs, who don't peak with O'Neal or Martin.
> 
> Side-dishes: Delk was an okay pickup. He can score, and he'll definitely add to the 3-pt shots taken, just like in BOS. (Is that good or bad? We'll see. Just like all these "only one ball" issues. It's hard to predict.) The BOS pickups are decent. I guess.
> 
> Financially, it's good for the Mavs. They gave Lafrentz, but also gave up Mills. AW expires soon, with big space. But he'll probably just want a max deal from Cuban, anyway.
> 
> Oyy, all this "All-Offense"... Shaq can put up 40 or even 50 vs these Mavs, can Nash do it vice-versa? It's more collective for the Mavs, but look out. Duncan can definitely burn them, and if they try to stop him, the other Spurs will trounce them if they're up to it.
> 
> And my beloved Wolves? Well, we turned Joe Smith, Anthony Peeler, and a retiree into Sam Cassell and Latrell Sprewell, and we split with the Mavs last year, so I think we'll do pretty well. I'll also take Troy Hudson over Delk or Carter.


You made my point for me! Raef was guarding duncan, Shaq last year and we came within a Grampa(kerr) from making it to the finals! Raef has the inside presence of Muggsy Bogues! Now we have Danny Fortson who is a better Defensive center and rebounder than raef, how does that all of the sudden make Shaq and Duncan run over us when they didn't against Raef?

We turned Juwan Howard into: Twan, Fortson, Toine, Delk. If you want to play the bench player game, 'll take Twan over the Wolves bench COMBINED. I'd probably take Best over Hudson, just because he's a pass first shoot second and is has been one of the best backup PG's in the game(besides of couse NVE and Jackson). 

Hudson is known for the lakers series. Fisher two years ago, made Mike Bibby the most overpaid and overrated player in the NBA! Yes, it was more of Fishers Defense than Hudsons skill, you make your own conclusions. Hudson can't play D and his O game i overrated. Sounded a little cocky on his skill my friend! 

The T wolves have the chemistry problem! KG taking 50% of the shots, Spree and Wally griping about shots, "black hole" cassel(once u pass it to him u never see the ball again), and Kandi man who somehow still believes the #1 pick hype. Then Flip Saunders, not great security to blend all of that chaos together.

The Mav are known to be a unselfish team. When your around unselfish people, you become unselfish(NVE). Jamison stated he had no problem coming off the bench, Walker won't HAVE to take every shot once peirce is doubled, because we have 5 all stars! Plus we have a HELL of a coach in Nellie! 

The thing about the Spurs was that they couldn't score points when Duncan was double teamed! Parker ws off and on and so was the others!


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## Johnny Mac

First off, Fortson is not that good of a defender. Hes a good rebounder, but that doesnt automatically mean good defender...people confuse that too often. 

2nd of all...beyond Shawn Bradley, the Mavs tallest player is Dirk, who is 7'0. He wouldnt guard Duncan or Shaq because hes the best player and doesnt move his feet well on defense and would get in foul trouble. Thats a given. Their next tallest players are Jamison and Walker at 6'9. Neither can come close to guarding Duncan or Shaq in the post, their giving up 2-4 inches on players who have either imaculate post game or just overwhelming power. Not going to work. Then they have Fortson whos a machine, but hes only 6'8. Thats not going to cut it. Najera is also 6'8, but yea thats too short. 

I'm not sure what Cuban has in mind here. He has given his team the ability to have the best record in the NBA, and have home court advantage in the playoffs. But hes also weakened his team in the area where his two biggest competitors are strongest at, which can come back to haunt you right around playoff time. When you have to face that strength and expose your weakness over a 7 game series. 

Season opener, the Mavs play the Lakers. Maybe they'll make me eat my words. Maybe Cuban will pull a deal by playoff time. Maybe Maybe Maybe. As of right now, their screwed.


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## Jacres318

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> First off, Fortson is not that good of a defender. Hes a good rebounder, but that doesnt automatically mean good defender...people confuse that too often.
> 
> 2nd of all...beyond Shawn Bradley, the Mavs tallest player is Dirk, who is 7'0. He wouldnt guard Duncan or Shaq because hes the best player and doesnt move his feet well on defense and would get in foul trouble. Thats a given. Their next tallest players are Jamison and Walker at 6'9. Neither can come close to guarding Duncan or Shaq in the post, their giving up 2-4 inches on players who have either imaculate post game or just overwhelming power. Not going to work. Then they have Fortson whos a machine, but hes only 6'8. Thats not going to cut it. Najera is also 6'8, but yea thats too short.
> 
> I'm not sure what Cuban has in mind here. He has given his team the ability to have the best record in the NBA, and have home court advantage in the playoffs. But hes also weakened his team in the area where his two biggest competitors are strongest at, which can come back to haunt you right around playoff time. When you have to face that strength and expose your weakness over a 7 game series.
> 
> Season opener, the Mavs play the Lakers. Maybe they'll make me eat my words. Maybe Cuban will pull a deal by playoff time. Maybe Maybe Maybe. As of right now, their screwed.


I said fortson was lightyears better than raef at D, he's not good, he's average and Raef is horrible! now fortson is as strong as an ox and plays like he's 6'11. if Shaq is killing us so bad we'll double team him, with Bradley and Fortson. one thing about Fortson, he is not SOFT! 

we're screwed? raef is 6'11 fort is 6'8 about 6'9, he makes up his height with his weight and effort, something Raef never had. Ben Wallace won the defensive player of the year award Twice at 6'9. when you have a 6'3 pg, 6'7 sg, 7'0 sf, 6'10 pf, I'm sure we can get by with a 6'8/6'9 c. Considering Duncan and KG are PF's. 

Screwed is not in the Mavs vocabulary, there will be a deal done before the season deadline if all else fails with the NEW Mavs. Not sure what your logic is with "we're screwed". 

Plus, you need size on Shaq to block his shot or disrupt his shot............. When's the last time you've seen Shaq's shot blocked enough to count? Then Fortson can get a had in Shaq's face. all you need is to slow him down a bit, Danny Fortson will be able to slow him down way more than Raef could.

Plus, he'll actually fight Shaq forthe rebound when Shaq misses that layup, instead of not gliching when it lands two inches infront of you(Raef). Last time I checked we play Team Defense anyway, and with Fortson's height disadvantage won't be a factor in Nellie's Team Defense. 

I think your talking about a big man , we weakened it when it's the other teams strengths. First off AGAIN, RAEF IS TALL, HE'S NOT A BIG MAN, FORTSON IS. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SOFT BIG MAN. so how did we weaken it if we never had it?

Then we had the best NBA record last year, or we tied with the Spurs.


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## Johnny Mac

Okay well we can argue all day about how Fortson will play defense on Shaq and Duncan. The fact is that hes giving up 3-5 inches on the two best post players in the game. The same players who could score on guys who are actually good at defense and are 7'0+. 

I dont know, maybe your right in some aspects, but I just dont like their style of play. I didnt like it last year, I had hoped they'd get some balance over the offseason, and they just got more and more scoring. I think they'll probably have the best record or near it, but I dont think they could beat the Spurs or LA in a 7 game series. I'd take LA or SA over Dallas in 5 or 6 at this point. But maybe Cuban has a trade in mind still which is likely.


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## Showtime84'

I find it funny that a freakin Bulls fan is putting down the Mavs style.

Dude, even some Cow fans would rather watch a quarter of Mavs basketball instead of an entire game from your borring team! 

If it wasn't for the Mavs and Kings the modern day NBA would be unbearable to watch. You would have the Eastern Conference were the quality of basketball is the worst that has been seen since the shot clock came into play and then in the West it would be the Spurs and Lakers sucking the life out of the game with their 85-89 thrilling snail pace contests.

No thanks!

I would say the Mavs are one of the most balanced teams in the league, they scored 103ppg and allowed only 95ppg, that's balance if I've ever seen it.

Don't blame the Mavs because they're 1 of 2 teams in the present 
NBA who can actually score more than 95 points CONSISTENTLY!!!


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## jokeaward

Chad Ford already said Howard was turned into all of them. I was going from that.

Walker will start?

Hudson was an MIP candidate. Like the team as a whole, he averaged plenty dimes (playoffs, too) and shot a lot, but there wasn't really any reason not to. Besides KG's, a lot of shots were his to take.

The Lakers series was good for him, but I agree he wasn't really defended or keyed on. Hoepfully you'd agree that if it were Nash similarly on fire against the Lakers, you wouldn't forge an idol of him either.


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## Jacres318

okay, John "the cool kid". We played "small ball" in the Spurs series. We were a old timer away from taking it to 7 games with dirk. the reason for the word "small ball", cause Najera was starting at center! Duncan had good games, but he did that every game, he didn't blow us out anymore. He did the same damn thing with Najera at center than when he played against every center in the league(no wise *** jokes, i know about Shaq). Fortson is a way better rebounder, remember the mavs d isn't the problem it's the rebounding. Last I checked Danny was one of the league's best. 

BTW you can't base Raef's skills on what he did in the past. his career stats were blah blah blah, go tell that to the Sonics....who traded Vin Baker for Kenny Anderson.

MAn this isn't even funny, "the cool kid", ok are you 10? have you learned how to listen? RAEF COULDN"T GUARD CHRIS DUDLEY AT THE FREE THROW LINE! HOW COULD WE POSSIBLY GET WORSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE WERE A STEVE FREAKING KERR AWAY FROM THE FINALS! HOW CAN WE NOT TAKE IT 6 GAMES AGAINST THE SPURS? seriously I've been having to repeat myself 500 times, you want to respond look at my other posts, chances are I already answered it!

JOKE AWARD: true I would do the same thing with nash as you do hudson, but the difference is Nash is a proven all-star.....Hudson is potential. He also needs to become more consistent on a every day basis. Delk and Best are probably a better backup point guard combo, because you know what you're getting and they're cosistent.

Hudson has a lot of confidence and it'll be tough for him to get sloppy seconds, or in this case sloppy sixths in shots. I wish him luck, I was glad to see him do good in the playoffs since he got shot in the offseason.


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## Johnny Mac

haha @ the guy who brought the Bulls into this 

Man I'm sorry, I'll stop responding after this post because both of you are getting your feelings hurt too much. 

Showtime, I'll skip your Bulls attacks because they were pretty unnecessary. I love teams who are exciting as long as they are able to also do the fundamentals of basketball. 

Jacres, I'm 19. Why can't you base Raefs skills on what he did in the past? What has changed? Hes not exactly old. Either way, you WERE a Steve Kerr away from the finals, but you could have also been out in the 1st round because of a player your team traded during the offseason. Thats the way competitive basketball works, I could say "IF" this and that and end up discrediting 95% of champions in history. Thats the beauty of the playoffs, its close. So the loser of a close series always likes to bring up these "IF" scenarios to give them hope for next year. 

Anyways, yea I'm done responding in here, good luck to your team next year.


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## Jacres318

why are you laughing at the guy who brought it up, he's right. Plus, I wasn't saying "if"! I said we were that close last year, with a worse team than we have this ear and now you're saying we can't take it 5 games against te Spurs. Plus NVE played 2 great games against the Kings, I'd be damned if he dosen't get the unreplacable tag, right there(think again). He almost lost the first series for us. If you didn't watch it, than you're on your own, I'm not giving you a whole page of the recap. 

Plus, would we have needed Nick with the team we have now, think again my friend. like I said I didn't say IF, i said we made it that far WITHOUT and a worse team and your logic i that we can' go 5 games against the Spurs?

Raef isn't old, but if he doesn't play good in our system, why the hell should we care about how he played in Denver?


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## Jacres318

feelings hurt? you sure you're 19?


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