# Morrison Or Bargnani?



## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

Since they are rated to go 3 & 4 in most mock drafts, who's gonna be the better pro?

Who would you select?


My feeling is Bargnani simply because of the height advantage.

:whoknows:


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

Its hard to compare, because Morrison's game is complete while Bargnini has a ton of potential.

Morrison is going to be solid, but if Bargnini develops he will be ther better pro.


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

bargnani, he has more size and skill to go alng with it he will average around 26-30pts and 9-12rebounds, that doesn't take anything away from morrison he will be better in the beginning of his carrer i think he can come in and average 18pts a game and eventually average around 23pts but when it's all said and done i think bargnani will be better, just like marvin will be better than chris paul 5 years from now


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## jworth (Feb 17, 2006)

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> bargnani, he has more size and skill to go alng with it he will average around 26-30pts and 9-12rebounds, that doesn't take anything away from morrison he will be better in the beginning of his carrer i think he can come in and average 18pts a game and eventually average around 23pts but when it's all said and done i think bargnani will be better, *just like marvin will be better than chris paul 5 years from now*


lol


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

Bulls4Life said:


> Since they are rated to go 3 & 4 in most mock drafts, who's gonna be the better pro?
> 
> Who would you select?
> 
> ...


i'm not convinced we know who is going 1 & 2 yet, for example if the bulls get the top pick to me it would be assinine to take thomas or aldridge when you have chandler. one thing that is pretty evident about bargnani is we seem to be over the darko/skitishville backlash. sure would be nice to see legitimate footage of the guy.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

TucsonClip said:


> Its hard to compare, because Morrison's game is complete while Bargnini has a ton of potential.
> 
> Morrison is going to be solid, but if Bargnini develops he will be ther better pro.



How is Morrison's game complete? And how is Bargnani's game full of only potential.

Morrison's offensive game is complete, but that's it. Bargnani's game is much more complete in terms of overall skill. 

And I have no preference which one the Blazers draft.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Saying someone will avg. 26-30 points is kind of interesting, considering there are like only 7-8 guys in the entire NBA who are doing it currently. He's going to be one of the top 10 scorers in the NBA huh? I'll believe it when I see it. I would include Amare Stoudemire, if healthy (possibly McGrady as well).

This year:

1. Kobe Bryant 35.4
2. Allen Iverson 33.0
3. Lebron James 31.4
4. Gilbert Arenas 29.3
5. Dwyane Wade 27.2
6. Paul Pierce 26.8
7. Dirk Nowitzki 26.6
8. Carmelo Anthony 26.5

So roughly 9-10 out of 400 players in the league currently can average 26 points or more. You have to be an elite level scorer to get 26 points per game, which says to me that I don't think Bargnani will get there personally.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

HKF said:


> Saying someone will avg. 26-30 points is kind of interesting, considering there are like only 7-8 guys in the entire NBA who are doing it currently. He's going to be one of the top 10 scorers in the NBA huh? I'll believe it when I see it. I would include Amare Stoudemire, if healthy (possibly McGrady as well).
> 
> This year:
> 
> ...



good point, thing is most guys dont get drafted into situations where they are going to get the number of shots to put up big numbers. who knows what kind of player bargnani will be but its safe to say he wont be jacking up 25 shots a night.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

mediocre man said:


> How is Morrison's game complete? And how is Bargnani's game full of only potential.
> 
> Morrison's offensive game is complete, but that's it. Bargnani's game is much more complete in terms of overall skill.


For one, Morrison does not have the athleticism to improve defensively, not to mention his lack of foot speed. At best he will be nothing more then an average defender. His offensive game is as polished as you can get out of college, it will improve in the NBA but its not going to be a big improvement.

Bargnani has a good game facing the basket, like many Euros. He still needs to develop his post game. He also needs to put on some muscle and if he wants to play SF, he is going to get killed defending on the perimeter. If he plays PF, he needs to add some weight and muscle, because he is not a good defender. Unlike Morrison, he has the potential to improve on defense, because of his athleticism.

Its not hard to see Bargnani needs to work on some things do become a good NBA player. Morrison is the type of guy who can come into the NBA and be successful from day one, because of his complete offensive game. Bargnani has much more upside, but is also not as complete an offensive player as Morrison right now; in fact not many rookies are, if any.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

HKF said:


> Saying someone will avg. 26-30 points is kind of interesting, considering there are like only 7-8 guys in the entire NBA who are doing it currently. He's going to be one of the top 10 scorers in the NBA huh? I'll believe it when I see it. I would include Amare Stoudemire, if healthy (possibly McGrady as well).
> 
> This year:
> 
> ...


I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that post. And you didn't even throw in the fact that Bargnani according to that guy will be grabbing 9-12 rebounds per game. No one on that list does that except for maybe Dirk, however 26/9 were the LOW estimates!!!

And it's almost equally absurd to assume Morrison will come in right away and score 18 per game in his rookie season. No rookie scores like that, and especially not a rookie who can't get to the rim and uses the same predictable moves to score each time (usually ending up shooting over guys because of his superior height and high release which he won't enjoy in the pros). Is Morrison a LeBron level talent? Because that's pretty much what it takes to come in as a rookie to ANY team and drop 18 per game.

But that kind of post isn't shocking at all. New members come in every single year and vastly overestimate the impact rookies actually make.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

mediocre man said:


> How is Morrison's game complete? And how is Bargnani's game full of only potential.
> 
> Morrison's offensive game is complete, but that's it. Bargnani's game is much more complete in terms of overall skill.
> 
> And I have no preference which one the Blazers draft.


What do you mean by overall skill?....Bargnani is not any better at defense than Morrison...On the other hand Morrison has a way better offensive game...


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that post. And you didn't even throw in the fact that Bargnani according to that guy will be grabbing 9-12 rebounds per game. No one on that list does that except for maybe Dirk, however 26/9 were the LOW estimates!!!
> 
> And it's almost equally absurd to assume Morrison will come in right away and score 18 per game in his rookie season. * No rookie scores like that, and especially not a rookie who can't get to the rim and uses the same predictable moves to score each time (usually ending up shooting over guys because of his superior height and high release which he won't enjoy in the pros).* Is Morrison a LeBron level talent? Because that's pretty much what it takes to come in as a rookie to ANY team and drop 18 per game.
> 
> But that kind of post isn't shocking at all. New members come in every single year and vastly overestimate the impact rookies actually make.


Probably the stupidest thing I've read in a long time...

Did you even watch him play?...He has a whole arsenal of moves hence the term people coin to him as a 'complete' offensive player..

In fact here's what nbadraft.net's scouting report had to say about him



> Strengths: A special talent ... Old school right down to the stripes on the socks ... Like a coach on the floor ... Incredibly competitive ... The game comes very easily to him ... A great player in the half court ... Can create offense for himself or others ... Really excels with the ball in his hands at the top of the key ... *Very good scorer with complete offensive repertoire* ... Effortless shooting stroke ... Has great anticipation and basketball understanding ... Great intangibles, competes and inspires others to play hard ... Hard worker ... Plays with great intensity and aggressiveness ... Fundamentally solid, does all the little things to help his team win ... A true competitor. Will not back down from anyone ... Wants to take the big shot ... Sees the floor well, and is creative finding teammates for baskets ... *Catches and shoots, or can shoot on the move* ... Great at moving without the ball ... Finds a way to score against better athletes ... Great leadership ability ...


or draftexpress.com:



> He understands how to create his shot better than anybody we've seen at the college level in years





> Despite a herky-jerky running style and an almost frail appearance at first glance, Morrison will aggressively attack the basket when his shot stops falling. Whether it is slashing into the lane before defenses can react, posting up smaller defenders for mid-range hook shots, relentlessy running the floor or simply scrapping for offensive rebounds.





> Adam Morrison' ability to read and exploit defenses in the blink of an eye, combined with his formidable shot creating tools allows him to be one of the most feared clutch scorers in the country.


Now instead of trying to come up with a well thought out comeback...Just admit you didn't know what you were talking about and were wrong...


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## pup2plywif (Dec 20, 2005)

Ive already brought this up in another post but if a team drafts a player in the top three that means the team believes that player is probably going to make at least one all star game over that players career. To say that Morrison is not that good or capable of at least one all star game over his career is stupid. If you say that then Morrison is not worthy of a top three pick.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> Probably the stupidest thing I've read in a long time...
> 
> Did you even watch him play?...He has a whole arsenal of moves hence the term people coin to him as a 'complete' offensive player..
> 
> ...


Nope. All I'll say to you is that nbadraft.net has the worst scouting reports on the internet (and that's saying something considering Chad Ford recently said Tyrus Thomas has a "sweet" 15 foot jumper and has led me to completely discredit that statement whenever he uses it in the future) and Jonathan Watters has a HUGE man crush on Morrison.

All you can say to me in order to "prove" you're right is "look what these scouting reports say!", and that holds zero weight. Scouting reports are always wrong, hell look at Ivan Chiriaev's scouting report from a few drafts ago, or Milos Vujanic's. When I see Morrison play I see someone who uses his superior physical traits to dominate unconvincingly at the college level and it won't translate to the NBA. Can I be wrong? Yes. I will freely admit that I could be completely wrong about Morrison. But so could you, and since you can't seem to admit that ever it makes arguing with you pointless and stupid.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

> Nope. All I'll say to you is that nbadraft.net has the worst scouting reports on the internet (and that's saying something considering Chad Ford recently said Tyrus Thomas has a "sweet" 15 foot jumper and has led me to completely discredit that statement whenever he uses it in the future) and Jonathan Watters has a HUGE man crush on Morrison.


So you're saying that your a better scout than these guys who do it for a living?....

I've heard everything about Morrison, but this is the first time I've ever read that someone thinks that Morrison is predictable...I have watched every single game throughout his college career and watched many of his high school games...He is far from predictable...He scores in so many different ways that sometimes you wonder where it came from when he introduces something new to his game....Your entitled to you opinion, but I can gaurantee that you aren't a better scout than these guys who do it for a living and the NBA GM's and scouting teams who are also very high on Morrison...



> All you can say to me in order to "prove" you're right is "look what these scouting reports say!", and that holds zero weight. Scouting reports are always wrong, hell look at Ivan Chiriaev's scouting report from a few drafts ago, or Milos Vujanic's. When I see Morrison play I see someone who uses his superior physical traits to dominate unconvincingly at the college level and it won't translate to the NBA. Can I be wrong? Yes. I will freely admit that I could be completely wrong about Morrison. But so could you, and since you can't seem to admit that ever it makes arguing with you pointless and stupid.


Were Chiriav and Vujanic ever players who lead their league (well actually nation) in scoring and considered a lock for top 3 pick?...

Superior physical traits?...I thought everybody knocked on him because he was thin as a rail and ran awkwardly...now he's a physical specimen...?...

Unconvincingly at the college level huh?...I guess you decided to ignore his huge games against future NBA defenders...In fact those were his best games of the year...But heck I guess if I hadn't watched a guy play much and I made an unwarranted statement like "he is predictable", I'd be throwing things at the wall to see if they'd stick as well...


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Nimreitz said:


> I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that post. And you didn't even throw in the fact that Bargnani according to that guy will be grabbing 9-12 rebounds per game. No one on that list does that except for maybe Dirk, however 26/9 were the LOW estimates!!!
> 
> And it's almost equally absurd to assume Morrison will come in right away and score 18 per game in his rookie season. No rookie scores like that, and especially not a rookie who can't get to the rim and uses the same predictable moves to score each time (usually ending up shooting over guys because of his superior height and high release which he won't enjoy in the pros). Is Morrison a LeBron level talent? Because that's pretty much what it takes to come in as a rookie to ANY team and drop 18 per game.
> 
> But that kind of post isn't shocking at all. New members come in every single year and vastly overestimate the impact rookies actually make.


Interestingly enough, people were predicting Bogut to do 16/9 as a rookie. He did 9/7. He was good, but to be a stud rookie star player is rare (Lebron, Carmelo, Duncan rare).


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## alex (Jan 7, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> What do you mean by overall skill?....Bargnani is not any better at defense than Morrison...On the other hand Morrison has a way better offensive game...



Bargani is much better defensively than Morrison (I saw Bargnani play live, and I've seen Morrison play several times). He has faaaaar superior footspeed and about equal awareness. He's also fairly strong for his age, and seems to posses muscular legs, which enables him to move shockingly smoothly for a player his size (he's probably faster and quicker then Dirk Nowitzki . . .). Keep in mind that (this is IF you've seen Bargnani play) his level of competition is much higher than Morrison's. 

And Morrison probably doesn't own much better offensive skills . . . Bargnani is one of the best players (probably second best) on the top team in Italy, Benettón Treviso, a club that would've been the odds on favorite to win the NCAA title. Italian and Euroleague>>>West Coast Conference and NCAA.

Had Bargnani played college basketball, he would've been a sophomore, and I bet that on most teams he woulda averaged 20-24 ppg 8-10 rpg 3-4 apg. This season, in the Euroleague and Seria A, he's averaging about 11.5ppg 6 rpg on impressive shooting percentages. Why doesn't he do better statistically? European coaches are in the Larry Brown school of seniority. He's on a talented and veteran team, and must defer to his lesser teammates. Nonetheless, he's just terrific all-round player and talent.

And I'm not really trying to downgrade Morrison either, I think he's a terrific college player, but Bargnani, to me, is by far and away the best prospect.


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

rainman said:


> good point, thing is most guys dont get drafted into situations where they are going to get the number of shots to put up big numbers. who knows what kind of player bargnani will be but its safe to say he wont be jacking up 25 shots a night.



if you we're talking about me, i'm just saying from what i hear in the interational basketball board


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## Samael (Sep 1, 2005)

Morrison will be a poor man's Wally Sczerbiak at best, JJ Riddick will be the next Jason Kapono and Bargnani will only be slightly better than Tskitishvili.


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

Nimreitz said:


> I was thinking the exact same thing when I read that post. And you didn't even throw in the fact that Bargnani according to that guy will be grabbing 9-12 rebounds per game. No one on that list does that except for maybe Dirk, however 26/9 were the LOW estimates!!!
> 
> And it's almost equally absurd to assume Morrison will come in right away and score 18 per game in his rookie season. No rookie scores like that, and especially not a rookie who can't get to the rim and uses the same predictable moves to score each time (usually ending up shooting over guys because of his superior height and high release which he won't enjoy in the pros). Is Morrison a LeBron level talent? Because that's pretty much what it takes to come in as a rookie to ANY team and drop 18 per game.
> 
> But that kind of post isn't shocking at all. New members come in every single year and vastly overestimate the impact rookies actually make.



if adam morrison was put in the right situation (new orleans) than i think he could average around 16-18 pts, he's a better scorer the chris paul is and he average 15pts a game. As for bargnani i'm just telling ya'll from what i heard in the international basketball board, remember they are the one's that actually seen him play and i heard a couple of times that andrea is capable (in the right system of coarse) of putting up around 26-30pts and 9-12reb maybe that is a little much though that's mvp type numbers.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

HKF said:


> Interestingly enough, people were predicting Bogut to do 16/9 as a rookie. He did 9/7. He was good, but to be a stud rookie star player is rare (Lebron, Carmelo, Duncan rare).


bogut had close to the 9 boards a game but like i pointed out he has to be afforded enough looks to get the points. he shot about 53% from the field and the first thing that comes to my mind when i see that is why didnt he shoot more. most players that come in dont get the looks. ppg doesnt really impress me that much. a lot of these guys could score in the 20's every night if they jacked up enough shots. back to bogut he isnt a lebron and although his game is closer to duncan's he has a ways to go, as for anthony i'll take bogut any day of the week over him.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

He really isn't close to Duncan (at least strength and athleticism wise) at all. He's going to be at the very least a serviceable big man (whether that means he'll be a star or not, is up to him), but you can't win titles without serviceable bigs. Heck he's serviceable now.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

HKF said:


> He really isn't close to Duncan (at least strength and athleticism wise) at all. He's going to be at the very least a serviceable big man (whether that means he'll be a star or not, is up to him), but you can't win titles without serviceable bigs. Heck he's serviceable now.


duncan came out as a senior from wake forest and bogut would have been a senior next season, i think if you compared both at the same age there would be real similarities there. bogut is better than a lot of people give him credit for, he needs to become more offense oriented but i think that will come with time. tim duncan is a hof player and it remains to be seen if bogut can progress anywhere near that level. to say duncan is a better athlete i dont agree with that.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Duncan was 21 when he came into the NBA. Bogut is 21 now. Duncan has been in the NBA for 9 years (and just turned 30 yesterday). Bogut is not on Duncan's level and never will be.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

HKF said:


> Duncan was 21 when he came into the NBA. Bogut is 21 now. Duncan has been in the NBA for 9 years (and just turned 30 yesterday). Bogut is not on Duncan's level and never will be.[/QUOTE
> 
> and lebron and kobe arent on mj's level and dirk isnt on bird's level yada yada yada. we're just making comparisons.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

I would definatley take Andrea. I see him as a cross between Paul Gasol and Dirk. He bangs down low more than Dirk but not as much as Paul, and shoots better than Paul but not quite as well as Dirk. He has a ceiling of 24-26 points per game, IMO along with 8-10 rebounds. That depends on him developing all aspects of his game rather than falling in love with the 3 like Vlad Radmanovic.


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## ChiSox (Jun 9, 2004)

I like Bogut but he isn't on Duncan's level, period. Duncan is a MVP candidate and put up big number in the nba from day one. I remember scouts saying he would have been the number one pick in the draft after his Sophmore and Junior year if he would have come out. Bogut is a good player and may be as good as say Dale Davis, Elden Campbell etc...


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Regarding Bogut, nah he's not going to be a star and there's a reason why plays aren't run for him in Milwaukee. I'm a Bucks fan, I've seen most of the games and gone to maybe 4 or 5 this year and Bogut is either not confident enough in himself to take a midrange shot regularly, or he just can't make it. I would be depressed if Bogut had the ball with his back to the basket 7-10 feet out with the clock running down. TJ has gotten him amazing looks this season and without a point guard like Ford running the show he wouldn't be shooting 53%. He isn't close to Duncan, he's a servicable big. But you better believe that Dan Gadzuric is much better at this point.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

osprey said:


> Morrison will be a poor man's Wally Sczerbiak at best, JJ Riddick will be the next Jason Kapono and Bargnani will only be slightly better than Tskitishvili.


What did the world ever do to you? :sad:


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> Your entitled to you opinion, but I can gaurantee that you aren't a better scout than these guys who do it for a living and the NBA GM's and scouting teams who are also very high on Morrison...
> 
> Were Chiriav and Vujanic ever players who lead their league (well actually nation) in scoring and considered a lock for top 3 pick?...
> 
> ...


I'll start with the bold quote. That is the greatest thing I've ever read, that's exactly what us draftniks do. We throw things out there, and if they stick we are even more convinced that our insane ramblings are true.

But that's not what happening here. First of all, I do believe I'm a better scout than guys who do this for a living. I'm wrong, granted, but I feel that way. It just seems I can gauge pretty quickly whether or not a player is a decent NBA prospect from watching him. My personal weakness is that often I don't notice a pro-talent unless someone tells me to watch for him, although I'm starting to get a lot better about that too now. For example I'm very high on Luc Mbah-a-Moute right now largely because of what I saw from him in one game.

No, I don't believe Chirieav or Vujacic ever led their league in scoring or were considered top 3 picks. However you must realized you stacked the deck with that question. If Morrison was a big man you'd say "did Chiriaev or Vujacic ever lead their league in rebounding (or blocks)". Just because someone is a good scorer at a non-NBA level (especially the horrendous WCC) doesn't mean it will translate to the NBA.

By superior physical traits I meant he's a 6'8'' Small Forward in a league where the typical SF is 6'4''. And if you add in his high release he's even taller. That just helps to inflate his value because SFs in the league will be both taller and more athletic, cancelling out both of those advantages.

He hasn't played against "future NBA defenders". While I love Carney, and then there's a poor player like Maurice Ager, Morrison hasn't gone against anyone. Sorry, but he hasn't.

For some reason I didn't see this post until now, so sorry for the lateness of my reply.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> I'll start with the bold quote. That is the greatest thing I've ever read, that's exactly what us draftniks do. We throw things out there, and if they stick we are even more convinced that our insane ramblings are true.
> 
> But that's not what happening here. First of all, I do believe I'm a better scout than guys who do this for a living. I'm wrong, granted, but I feel that way. It just seems I can gauge pretty quickly whether or not a player is a decent NBA prospect from watching him. My personal weakness is that often I don't notice a pro-talent unless someone tells me to watch for him, although I'm starting to get a lot better about that too now. For example I'm very high on Luc Mbah-a-Moute right now largely because of what I saw from him in one game.
> 
> ...


Nimritz my man, you constantly rehash the WCC thing and totally disregard what he did against top 10 ranked opponents or even top 5 teams that they played...It might make your argument seem nice that Morrison was a WCC guy going up against 6'4" SF or whatever, but do you not realize what he did against the good teams? Or do you totally disregard that because it totally goes against your whole "well he plays against WCC teams" theory...

Even against UCLA who had the best defense in the nation he put up points, despite being the victim of double and triple teams...

and your claim that he hasn't done anything against future NBA defenders...He tore up every guy(s) that they put up against him, what more can you really ask for?...Rudy Gay didn't really shut him down nor did Bobby Jones whom he lit up for 43 and is one of the better defenders for his position in the nation and after a great performance at the PIT he will definitely be picked...Believe it or not Maurice Ager is going to be an NBA player...Name some other future NBA caliber SF's that are in the NCAA that are out there...You aren't going to find many...

I understand you don't get the coverage of Morrison out there in Wisconsin as we do out here on the west coast..But WATCH a little bit more before you make the vague "well he plays in the WCC" comments to the table every single time...I've already made examples of what he has done against other teams and you continually disregard them, it makes me think your not really worth discussing hoops with....


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## belgian (Feb 21, 2004)

While Morisson will be a good player, Bargnani has the potential to be a Dirk-like player (meaning he could be MVP when he doesn't get robbed) and he is now already producing in a 100 times stronger league than Morisson 

Bargnani should be #1 overall, no doubt.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> Nimritz my man, you constantly rehash the WCC thing and totally disregard what he did against top 10 ranked opponents or even top 5 teams that they played...It might make your argument seem nice that Morrison was a WCC guy going up against 6'4" SF or whatever, but do you not realize what he did against the good teams? Or do you totally disregard that because it totally goes against your whole "well he plays against WCC teams" theory...
> 
> Even against UCLA who had the best defense in the nation he put up points, despite being the victim of double and triple teams...
> 
> ...


Ok, so I get Rudy Gay, Bobby Jones (who?), Maurice Ager, and UCLA's entire defense. Rudy Gay drifts through games, he will be a better NBA player than he is an NCAA player as long as he actually gets focused when he gets paid. I don't know who Bobby Jones is. Maurice Ager is going to be an NBA Player? HAHAHA. Now it's time for me to play the "you don't get many games out there" card, but as a Big Ten fan there is no freakin chance Ager makes it in the NBA. He's got Star in Europe written all over him. And to be honest I didn't see the UCLA game, so I won't comment although it's one of the only games you can't come back with your blanked "at least they won" reply, so he couldn't have played that well. It's an opinion, but I really feel Adam Morrison will be a career bench warmer in the NBA, that's just what I think and yes it's based on watching him play. I don't need to see someone play 300 minutes to know what they are capable of.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Bobby Jones...

Day 1 



> Bobby Jones, 6-6, SG/SF, Washington
> 
> 18 points, 6 rebounds, 3 steals, 1 block, 1 turnover, 5-11 FG, 8-9 FT, 0-1 3P
> 
> ...


Day 2 



> Bobby Jones, 6'6, Shooting Guard, Washington
> 
> 10 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, 4-8 FG, 2-5 3P, 28 minutes
> 
> ...


Maurice Ager is currently being projected as a first round pick, Carney and Gay will be top 10 picks most likely...Jones will be an NBA pick...I'm sorry you never heard of Jones, you must not watch much west coast basketball...You must of just seen Morrison on Sportscenter or something...

and yet you fail to answer my question...What better defensive SF's were there in the NCAA this year for him to play against?...Can you tell me some? I'd like to know... 

You can keep your opinion of Morrison all you want, but that doesn't mean I can't save this thread and come back next year when defensive NBA players can't stop him and rub it in your face...


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> and yet you fail to answer my question...What better defensive SF's were there in the NCAA this year for him to play against?...Can you tell me some? I'd like to know...
> 
> You can keep your opinion of Morrison all you want, but that doesn't mean I can't save this thread and come back next year when defensive NBA players can't stop him and rub it in your face...


1) Look at the first sentence of the first article you posted about Jones. Passive. Yeah, real convincing.

2) You don't get it do you. It doesn't matter that he played against the best non-NBA defensive small forwards in college or not because he didn't play against anyone who plays NBA quality defense. Just because there are guys who play solid D in college doesn't mean they are even as good as the worst defender at that position in the NBA.

3) I can save this thread to buddy. And I'll happily bring it up when the 9/3/1 rookie season is over with.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Nimreitz said:


> 1) Look at the first sentence of the first article you posted about Jones. Passive. Yeah, real convincing.
> 
> 2) You don't get it do you. It doesn't matter that he played against the best non-NBA defensive small forwards in college or not because he didn't play against anyone who plays NBA quality defense. Just because there are guys who play solid D in college doesn't mean they are even as good as the worst defender at that position in the NBA.
> 
> 3) I can save this thread to buddy. And I'll happily bring it up when the 9/3/1 rookie season is over with.


so, the nba rejects in the european leagues play "NBA quality defense"?

interesting, maybe unintentional, bias you got there. Guys who can't make it in the NBA playing there play "NBA quality defense", but players who you don't know here (and come up with reasons that are basically the same as what can be made about Barganis competition) don't?

It is very *very* doubtful that Morrison will see double and triple teams in the NBA.

hell, LeBron doesn't see double teams constantly. 

and it's not like NBA defense is really all that great, with the exception of a few, and that it'll be the death nill of either player.

Interesting you brought up 9-3-1...thats basically what Dirk Nowitski averaged his rookie season.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

> 2) You don't get it do you. It doesn't matter that he played against the best non-NBA defensive small forwards in college or not because he didn't play against anyone who plays NBA quality defense. Just because there are guys who play solid D in college doesn't mean they are even as good as the worst defender at that position in the NBA.


NO COLLEGE SMALL FORWARD HAS EVER PLAYED AGAINST A QUALITY NBA DEFENDER WHILE THEY WERE IN COLLEGE!

name these future great NBA defendering SF's that he didn't go against that would have shut him down...YOU CAN'T!

College players can only do what they can against what they have to face and in no way did Morrison face a cupcake schedule...

I'm sure Kobe, T-Mac and all those guys who came out of high school played against superior defense in high school as well....  

You're really grasping at straws now aren't you...


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

I don't need to justify my opinion any further, I've made myself perfectly clear. And I'm positive that most of what I have said rings true to rational people who don't happen to have a MASSIVE Spokane bias.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> I don't need to justify my opinion any further, I've made myself perfectly clear. And I'm positive that most of what I have said rings true to rational people who don't happen to have a MASSIVE Spokane bias.


Tell the GM's that who are picking him top 5 gauranteed or the scouts who have him listed top 3 on their mock drafts or coaches and teams who have NBA caliber players that he burned this year and in years past...

And you still elude my question of what top future NBA defensive SF's there were in college for him to go against...


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> And you still elude my question of what top future NBA defensive SF's there were in college for him to go against...


You must be failing your logic class because you really can't go from one stage to another.

It doesn't matter if there was or was not an NBA caliber defender for him to go up against, he didn't go up against one. Maybe Luc Richard Mbah-a-Moute. He seems like the only player who would have actually guarded Morrison and is also an NBA caliber defender, although as a freshman he obviously needs work. And that's the thing, the jump in competition is going to be immense. EVERY PLAYER gets culture shock from NBA defense because they haven't played against anything like that before. You very erroneously assume Morrison will be different. NO HE WON'T BE.

And to Smile, the same thing applies. No, Bargnani hasn't played against NBA caliber defense (it's closer, but it's definitely not there), but from what I've seen of him (and granted it's very little, MUCH less than Morrison) his game is more adaptable and unpredictable and therefore will translate better. However that doesn't mean he won't get a culture shock, in fact he will suffer a much more intense one than Morrison and probably take a lot longer to actually get up to his potential once he hits the league.

And zagsfan I know you don't get it because you keep saying it and I don't even know why I'm bothering to type this now, but I DON'T CARE WHAT GM's AND SCOUTS SAY ABOUT MORRISON!! I know what I see with my own eyes and after I see a player myself, I'm not going to blindly follow the "experts" any more. You are using them for vindication, that somehow since they say it then it must be true. That's wrong. Here are the facts... Morrison is a late lottery talent in a weak draft. In addition he is further developed than most players, so someone who is top 8-10 in a draft, but is also more developed than some of the higher players will obviously go high. He isn't Blake Stepp, you don't have to compensate for your extreme fear of Gonzaga players sucking in the league by hyping Morrison more than he is. Morrison is a role player in the NBA or a marginal starter at best, as a 6'9'' developed prospect in the weakest draft in 20 years, that makes him a mid-high lottery pick. If you pin your hopes on Adam Morrison to help you out his rookie year as a starter you're probably making a great decision.... because you'll be in a great position to get Greg Oden next year.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> You must be failing your logic class because you really can't go from one stage to another.
> 
> It doesn't matter if there was or was not an NBA caliber defender for him to go up against, he didn't go up against one. Maybe Luc Richard Mbah-a-Moute. He seems like the only player who would have actually guarded Morrison and is also an NBA caliber defender, although as a freshman he obviously needs work. And that's the thing, the jump in competition is going to be immense. EVERY PLAYER gets culture shock from NBA defense because they haven't played against anything like that before. You very erroneously assume Morrison will be different. NO HE WON'T BE.
> 
> ...



Morrison won't go in the late lottery, he won't fall farther than the Bobcats, who according to record and prior to the lottery right now have the third pick

Its funny you think your drafting acumen is superior to people who do it for a living and get paid mighty nicely to do so...

You're entitled to your opinion and as I've said before, I'll file this post away and bring it up next year when Morrison is averaging at least 12 ppg in his rookie year...


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Convince a poster as Biased about Morrison as Zagsfan is, that anyone could possibly be a better player, is on par with convincing the sky to be green tomorrow.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

morrison>bargnani


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## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

pmac34 said:


> morrison>bargnani


Right now it's possible.

Take a look at the comparison in a couple of years:

Bargnani>>>Morrison. :biggrin:


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

Toxicity said:


> Right now it's possible.
> 
> Take a look at the comparison in a couple of years:
> 
> Bargnani>>>Morrison. :biggrin:


bargnani is an unknown talent. he could be the next tskitisviti or the next dirk
i feel safe saying morrison > bargnani


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

trust me when i say there is no bigger fan of morrison than me but everything being equal size trumps skill. guys like bargnani and aldridge and thomas are probably going before morrison, doesnt mean their sklls are any better but size matters.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

zagsfan20 said:


> Morrison won't go in the late lottery, he won't fall farther than the Bobcats, who according to record and prior to the lottery right now have the third pick


Did I say that? Did I say Morrison will go in the late lottery? No I didn't.


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## tha supes (Aug 12, 2003)

Schilly said:


> Convince a poster as Biased about Morrison as Zagsfan is, that anyone could possibly be a better player, is on par with convincing the sky to be green tomorrow.


The same thing could be said with Nimreitz' bias of Bargnani.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

I would take Andrea over Morrison 8 days of the weekend.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

Shane Battier or Tyson Chandler?


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> Did I say that? Did I say Morrison will go in the late lottery? No I didn't.





> Morrison is a late lottery talent in a weak draft.


pretty much.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> Nope. All I'll say to you is that nbadraft.net has the worst scouting reports on the internet (and that's saying something considering Chad Ford recently said Tyrus Thomas has a "sweet" 15 foot jumper and has led me to completely discredit that statement whenever he uses it in the future) and Jonathan Watters has a HUGE man crush on Morrison.
> 
> All you can say to me in order to "prove" you're right is "look what these scouting reports say!", and that holds zero weight. Scouting reports are always wrong, hell look at Ivan Chiriaev's scouting report from a few drafts ago, or Milos Vujanic's. When I see Morrison play I see someone who uses his superior physical traits to dominate unconvincingly at the college level and it won't translate to the NBA. Can I be wrong? Yes. I will freely admit that I could be completely wrong about Morrison. But so could you, and since you can't seem to admit that ever it makes arguing with you pointless and stupid.


not to mention some of those reports are old as hell. Knowing how Morrison played at a freshman isnt all that helpful anymore.

Morrison could go as high overall as number one depending on which team gets it. Little Mrs. Andrea, isnt even in the picture


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

tha supes said:


> The same thing could be said with Nimreitz' bias of Bargnani.


I've never even seen him play an entire game are you freakin' kidding me? I've seen some clips and I've seen a lot of the American players and to be honest no one is very good in this draft. So why not take a chance on the unknown 7 footer who looks like a quicker, more athletic Dirk? The last Euro taken top 5 who actually put up points in Europe? Pau Gasol.


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## BDMcGee (May 12, 2006)

First of all the people saying that Adam Morrison won't make it in the NBA namely Nimreitz is talking bull crap. Yes there will be a great jump going from college to the NBA, and Morrison will have to face more bigger, athletic defenders than he did in college on a nightly basis, but so what? It's all about making adjustments. The transition from college to the NBA is hard for everyone, but the great ones adjust and become stars. Adam Morrison is a special talent. He has the total package offensively and most importantly has the brains and desire to maximize his abilities. His competitiveness is unmatched by any player in this draft and you won't find a smarter player anywhere. When Dwyane Wade and T.J. Ford came out of college everyone said they would struggle on the next level due to their lack of size, but they proved everyone wrong because they're special talents who adjusted to the NBA game. Morrison will do the same thing.

With all of that said, from what I hear Bargnani appears to be the real deal. He's pretty polished and is playing well against some of the best competition in Europe. He has a great deal of hype surrounding him, but he's backed it up about as well as he possibly could. Right now I think Morrison is the best player in the draft, but at near 7'0 Bargnani probably has more upside so I would have to take him if I were forced to choose between him and Morrison.


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## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

HERE ARE SOME VIDEOS OF BARGNANI!!!!!! 

Please, anyone who has not seen this guy should watch these videos. 

I think Morrison will be as good as Kyle Korver, maybe even better. But when I look at this kid Bargnani, I think this guy will be a matchup nightmare for opposing coaches in 3-4 years as he gains more strength and experience. I didn't know who was better (having only seen Morrison in this year's tournament and never seeing Bargnani) but now I have to say that I would prefer the Bulls get Bargnani and pass on Morrison!


Plus, Morrisons diabetes worries me, not to mention he will be physically outmatched almost every night in the NBA.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

Bulls4Life said:


> HERE ARE SOME VIDEOS OF BARGNANI!!!!!!
> 
> Please, anyone who has not seen this guy should watch these videos.
> 
> ...



no argument here that bargnani would be a better fit for the bulls but i'm not buying this stale argument about college kids playing bigger, more athletic players in the pros. obviously they are more athletic and in most cases have more size but all players face that. does anyone think a kid that goes from highschool to the pros may be facing bigger players. that argument works in peoples favor if they want to come up with an excuse. to me its better left out of the equation.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

There are other indicators of how well a player will transition, you can't just assume that "it's all about making adjustments" and write if off as not a concern. You mentioned Dwyane Wade and TJ Ford? Do you understand the caliber of athlete those two guys are? TJ is just about the fastest player in the NBA, he was the Wooden Award Winner as a SOPHOMORE WITH A BAD BACK, and even at his height he can still get up and catch alley-oops. Wade has something like a 6'8'' wingspan and the quickest first step I've ever seen from a college player. Look at the best players in the NBA, they either pose matchup problems (the 7 foot small/power forwards like Dirk and them), or they are tremendous athletes. The exceptions are the Steve Nashes of the world who can blow by their man and create off the dribble. Where exactly does Morrison fit in?

Look, I think he's one of the best 5-ish players in this draft, but it's a weak draft and he isn't going to be a great NBA player.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

Nimreitz said:


> There are other indicators of how well a player will transition, you can't just assume that "it's all about making adjustments" and write if off as not a concern. You mentioned Dwyane Wade and TJ Ford? Do you understand the caliber of athlete those two guys are? TJ is just about the fastest player in the NBA, he was the Wooden Award Winner as a SOPHOMORE WITH A BAD BACK, and even at his height he can still get up and catch alley-oops. Wade has something like a 6'8'' wingspan and the quickest first step I've ever seen from a college player. Look at the best players in the NBA, they either pose matchup problems (the 7 foot small/power forwards like Dirk and them), or they are tremendous athletes. The exceptions are the Steve Nashes of the world who can blow by their man and create off the dribble. Where exactly does Morrison fit in?
> 
> Look, I think he's one of the best 5-ish players in this draft, but it's a weak draft and he isn't going to be a great NBA player.



totally repect your opinion but i think morrison compares pretty favorably to a reggie miller with his mid-range game or a rip hamilton with his ability to come off screens. i dont think there are many great nba players period so i wont even touch that topic.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

I would much rather have Bargnani over Morrison.

Bargnani is bigger, more athletic, younger and has a better all-around game. He's also been playing well against tougher competition, as the Euroleague is considered the second-best league in the world (after the NBA, of course) and superior to the NCAA.

Anytime a prospect is doing well against a higher caliber of competition, that's a huge plus, since it takes away a degree of the unknown. He's still not proven against NBA competition, but he's proven against better than college competition.

I don't personally compare Bargnani to Nowitzki or Gasol. I'd compare him to a better version of a prime Toni Kukoc. A big man who can play out on the wing, pass the ball well, rebound the ball and score. The big difference I see between Bargnani and Kukoc is that Bargnani has the skillset and mindset to be a go-to scorer whereas Kukoc did not.

Bargnani's ceiling, in my opinion, is 25-26 PPG with 5-6 APG and 6-7 RPG. His 50th percentile performance I'd peg at 20 PPG, with 5 APG and 5 RPG. Overall, I'd say that's excellent value and much more value than Morrison should be expected to bring.

Defense is a concern for Bargnani, but it's also a concern for Morrison. Bargnani, however, has the athleticism to potentially be a good defender, while Morrison does not, in my opinion.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

Nimreitz said:


> Look at the best players in the NBA, they either pose matchup problems (the 7 foot small/power forwards like Dirk *and them*


Who?


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> I would much rather have Bargnani over Morrison.
> 
> Bargnani is bigger, more athletic, younger and has a better all-around game. He's also been playing well against tougher competition, as the Euroleague is considered the second-best league in the world (after the NBA, of course) and superior to the NCAA.
> 
> ...



first off i would probably take bargnani over morrison(unless i'm seattle) but a couple of points, morrison will be 22 in july so age shouldnt even be part of the conversation and second if morrison and or bargnani turn out to be as good as toni kucoc they are going to have a better than average nba career, kucoc who probably had his best years over in europe was at one time one of the top half dozen or so players in the world.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

rainman said:


> if morrison and or bargnani turn out to be as good as toni kucoc they are going to have a better than average nba career


Agreed. I don't think Morrison will be as good as Kukoc; I think Bargnani has a decent chance to be better. Even if he had just a Kukoc career, that would still be solid value.


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## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

Another reason I like Bargnani is he can play the 3, 4 & 5 positions. That kind of versatility is the future of the NBA. And did anyone check out those Bargnani videos?
:jawdrop:


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## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

Another reason I don't like Morrison is the way he ended his college career......


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

pmac34 said:


> Who?


Dirk, KG, Gasol, Bosh, Webber, JO. And then there are some guys like Brand, Marion, and Jamison who have that type of game, but aren't 7 feet tall.


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## belgian (Feb 21, 2004)

Morisson = Mike Miller
Bargnani = Dirk Nowzitki (he's no tsiktishivili because he actually produce in 2nd best league in the world)

I take Nowitzki over Mike Miller


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## Oil Can (May 25, 2006)

belgian said:


> Morisson = Mike Miller


Love the lazy "compare him to another white guy" cliche...yawn.

Like my fellow Zag friend (albiet a much older one)...I have seen him play many times live. He is a phenomenal talent. If you want to compare his game to a current NBA'er...try Rip Hamilton. 

I am an old dude-mid thirties! The last player I felt this strongly about was a little PG named Steve Nash. He has done pretty well I think. He has won a couple of little awards I guess. 


I cannot make a judgement on Bargnani. How could I? How could any of you? No one (save NBA and college scouts) have seen him play any amount of real minutes. Yeah, you all have seen his little grainy 30 second internet video. 

That is how you qualify him as a better prospect than Morrison? If so, I think that is incredibly short sighted.


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