# I've had it with TJ!



## firstrounder (Oct 31, 2004)

You can see it in his body language and the way he plays:

Before the game Chuck asks him how he feels about the 5-5 start and he starts going on about how he's surprised with how good he's been playing blah blah blah, not even answering Chuck's real question.

He's conceded. He cares about himself first and foremost, the team second. He thinks he's the show.

He'd better get it through his ****ing skull that he isn't.

**** OFF TJ


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I looked at your post history. Your last 4-5 posts were all anti-Ford posts. Do you have a personal vendetta against the guy or something? 

Just look at the way he has been playing. It's not like he's not giving his 100% effort out there every night. Regardless of the result, (Which you can make an argument for Ford that he has been our best player thus far) a player who only cares about himself wouldn't be going as hard as TJ every night. And the guy is averaging 8 assists in less than 29 minutes a game. Someone who's selfish will not average those numbers. People can't deny that even when they say that TJ's passes are "Simple" passes. The guy has skills. You don't average more assists by being more selfish, that's like trying to get poor by making more money, it doesn't work like that.

TJ haters or not, you have to give him credit on working on his game over the summer. His jump shot has improved drastically and his turnovers have been down somewhat from last season. It's far from perfect, but it's evidence that he has worked very hard in the offseason.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

TJ has won at every level and will continue to do so. This guy is all about the W.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

weird time to hate TJ after he gets injured & does not play the last 16minutes of tonights game.....


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

I personally remember Chuck asking him before the game how he feels about the season, personally and he answered at first through the team's rough start and then individually. Nothing in that short interview did I come out with the impression that TJ was conceded, selfish, looking out for number 1, etc.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

T.J. is playing hard....I just don't like him as a player. I am still not convinced that he is the point guard to take this team to the promised land.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

TJ played great last night, aside from a few wild drives he was on point all night (until he got injured). It's not like Jose didn't jack up a few shots he had no business taking.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

shookem said:


> TJ played great last night, aside from a few wild drives he was on point all night (until he got injured). It's not like Jose didn't jack up a few shots he had no business taking.


Jose shot 6 for 10.....fantastic for a guard....TJ went 4-12...not good for anyone. 

Like I said, Ford is playing hard, I just don't think he is the right guy for this team. It is very hard to play a two man post game when your guard who feeds the post is not a threat on the shot. His defender can play off him, make the pass tough, and easily double down. 
Same goes on the pick and roll or pick and pop.....Ford's defender can go under a screen because he is not a threat from three.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

I would trade Devin Harris for him :whistling:


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

croco said:


> I would trade Devin Harris for him :whistling:


I would trade Bosh for Nowitzki :whistling:




billfindlay10 said:


> Like I said, Ford is playing hard, I just don't think he is the right guy for this team. It is very hard to play a two man post game when your guard who feeds the post is not a threat on the shot. His defender can play off him, make the pass tough, and easily double down.
> Same goes on the pick and roll or pick and pop.....Ford's defender can go under a screen because he is not a threat from three.


Ford is not a threat? He may not be Steve Nash-like on his shots but his mid-range game is pretty good for a guy who once was touted as a player who couldn't shoot the basketball to save his life. He also is one of our better players on creating his own shot off the dribble.

In any case, our team philosophy is not made up of two-man games.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

trick said:


> I would trade Bosh for Nowitzki :whistling:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The two man game may not be our team philosophy, but there are times that you need to go to that, like down the stretch last night when we needed a bucket.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

I was just as impatient with TJ last sesason as your regular anti-Ford hater, but to me he just seems so much more in control this season and at the same time knows when to take and not take shots for the most part. He also makes a stronger effort to get his teammates involved before looking for his own shot.

:whoknows:

I have no problem with TJ thus far and I don't blame him for the poor start to the season.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

I personally like to make Sam Mitchell the scapegoat, but to each his own.

The problem as I see it, is that TJ is our most dynamic backcourt player. He's the only one that can break down defenses off the dribble and the only one that can create his own shot.....He fills the role a SG should, and he gets a lot of heat for not being that prototypical PG we want.

Once BC gets us better guards than Anthony Parker and Juan Dixon, we should see TJ round into the PG we all think he can be.

I'm not so sure that Sam is the best coach for TJ either


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

billfindlay10 said:


> Like I said, Ford is playing hard, I just don't think he is the right guy for this team. It is very hard to play a two man post game when your guard who feeds the post is not a threat on the shot.


hey bill, your posts are usually solid, but this sounds like somebody has stolen your login, or you haven't had time to watch any games from this season.

Ford has shot the ball exceptionally well this year. He is at 47.5%, and better than 50% on 2pt attempts. He has even hit several clutch treys. I don't see teams sagging off him that much anymore. He will never be a big-time treyshooter, but I think he is no longer in the category of "don't bother contesting". 

If you want to suggest that bigger stronger point guards are a big problem for him, OK. But TJ Ford is certainly not this teams problem when we have the ball.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

TRON said:


> I personally like to make Sam Mitchell the scapegoat, but to each his own.
> 
> *The problem as I see it, is that TJ is our most dynamic backcourt player. He's the only one that can break down defenses off the dribble and the only one that can create his own shot*.....He fills the role a SG should, and he gets a lot of heat for not being that prototypical PG we want.
> 
> ...


I thought Calderon did this also


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

TRON said:


> The problem as I see it, is that TJ is our most dynamic backcourt player. He's the only one that can break down defenses off the dribble and the only one that can create his own shot.....*He fills the role a SG should*, and he gets a lot of heat for not being that prototypical PG we want.


:whofarted


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## Darman (Jun 29, 2006)

Can I ask you what do you mean with


> that can create his own shot


?

Why should a PG create his own shot? He's job should be to control the tempo and start every action calling offensive and defensive strategies.

The same thing for Bargnani who lots keep saying "he's parking outside the 3p line": if the team strategy (aka "Sam decision") is that he position must be outside the line why should he go inside (and bring two men under the rim) and however when he has a mismatch in low post they don't give him the ball...


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Darman said:


> Can I ask you what do you mean with ?
> 
> Why should a PG create his own shot? He's job should be to control the tempo and start every action calling offensive and defensive strategies.


Well there will be times when the point guard just can't find anything to create based upon the defenses he's going against so it would be up to the point guard, in this instance, to take a good shot if they feel his shot would be the best one to take at the time.

A point guard who creates his own shot doesn't necessarily mean he trudges down the full court only to ignore everyone and take a shot himself. He could be pinned by the shot clock and has to rush before being called for a violation. Defenders maybe tightening up on his teammates giving ample opportunity for a one-on-one scenario where the point guard can break his defender off the dribble for an open look or layup. There are more general examples but I'm just giving you a couple of scenarios where a point guard who can create his own shot would be ideal to have.



Darman said:


> The same thing for Bargnani who lots keep saying "he's parking outside the 3p line": if the team strategy (aka "Sam decision") is that he position must be outside the line why should he go inside (and bring two men under the rim) and however when he has a mismatch in low post they don't give him the ball...


To add different dimenions to his game. What's wrong with Bargnani having both an inside and outside game?


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

trick, 
In reference to my comments about TJ (filling the role of SG), I believe that if we had a typical SG that could do the things TJ could(dribble, create, score), he might not feel as pressured to take on that role of scorer (typical of a SG).

Now I like Anthony Parker for what he is, a spot up shooter. However, it's clear if you look around the league, he doesn't exactly stack up to starting 2guards around the league. Plus whoever you bring off the bench...Dixon, Kapono, Delfino same story.

By default, TJ is our best guard, and he is forced to do things that a shooting guard would normally be asked to do. You can't deny that TJ is our best scoring guard, & that role would by typical of a SG.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by *HB !*
> 
> I thought Calderon did this also


Calderon isn't that one-on-one threat that TJ is, Calderon is great at hitting seems in the defenses or working around screens but he's not gonna break his man down off the dribble, that's not his game.


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## Victor Page (Nov 1, 2006)

I always laugh because people use a 1960s NBA team as their prototypical squad (i.e. well defined positions 1 through 5, a PG who doesn't shoot and whose sole job is to create for others, etc...).

This isn't 1968.

TJ's role is #1 run a play (either to Bosh at the elbow, or pick and roll with Bargani). If the defense reacts well, TJ gets the ball back and runs the second option - usually a drive and kick for an outside shot, or a pull up jumper for himself).

Unlike on your junior high team, which is the highest level some of you played the game, there is a shot clock so the PG can't afford to re-set the offense more than once. If you don't get a good look early, you need someone that can improvise. TJ is pretty good at this - not as good as Chris Paul or Steve Nash, but pretty good.

Since the Raptors don't have a Kobe or a Paul Pierce that can create a decent shot on his own, TJ often has to put up a wild shot or try a risky pass that doesn't work out. It's not like he can give the ball to Parker or Kapono and just clear the side out.

Ford isn't jacking up shots early in the shot clock - if he was Mitchell would have him in the bench in 2 minutes. He's doing the best he can - I guess I don't understand the TJ haters. Why don't people start threads along the lines of "why isn't Bargnani's shot falling? he's such a jerk!" or "why doesn't Rasho kill guys in the post? he's such an a--hole!"

Ford has a mediocre shot (though getting better) and he's not strong enough to finish a lot of plays at the rim - he does the best he can with what he has.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Victor Page said:


> I always laugh because people use a 1960s NBA team as their prototypical squad (i.e. well defined positions 1 through 5, a PG who doesn't shoot and whose sole job is to create for others, etc...).
> 
> This isn't 1968.
> 
> ...


This is why I don't like Ford as our #1 point guard. He does not play the two man game well due to his less then stellar outside shot. When he does getr in the lane he puts up wild shots!

Jose can stick the open shot and turn the corner and get to the hoop as well....I can't wait to see what he does getting hopefully more then one start.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

I agree man, Ford runs around in circles, sometimes this leads to a layup but most times it leads to either a fadeaway jumper, or right into a showblocker with no where to go and the shot clock almost done. I would give TJ 20min and Jose 28. Our spacing sucks when TJ is out there, he runs right into defenders. 

Calderon should be our primary PG, he executes the pick and roll with Bargnani perfectly, TJ never gives the ball to Bargs.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

osman said:


> I agree man, *Ford runs around in circles, sometimes this leads to a layup but most times it leads to either a fadeaway jumper*, or right into a showblocker with no where to go and the shot clock almost done. I would give TJ 20min and Jose 28. Our spacing sucks when TJ is out there, he runs right into defenders.
> 
> Calderon should be our primary PG, he executes the pick and roll with Bargnani perfectly, TJ never gives the ball to Bargs.


if you look at TJ play, in the irky-jerky sense he is alot like steve nash as Don Nelson said... if when TJ is doing the rounds in the lanes/under the basket, if the rest of our team was moving with him.. we would get open shots.. but so far guys look confused standing around watching TJ, i don't blame him for those bad posessions,.


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## firstrounder (Oct 31, 2004)

Comparing TJ to Steve Nash is insane. TJ wants to shoot the ball, Nash doesn't.

Plus Nash is 1,000,000 times better.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

that's not what i meant.. at all.. in a sense of dribbling style & distribution they are alike... not in the same player sense.. nash is an MVP & all-star, it's obvious im not comparing them in that way.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

billfindlay10 said:


> Jose shot 6 for 10.....fantastic for a guard....TJ went 4-12...not good for anyone.


Calderon's shooting fantastic today. See the problem with judging players with one game now?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

I don't want to bring out the Ford haters or start a Forderon war, but I gotta say the team could've used Ford for the Memphis game to make things alot easier...and I think my Ford hate from last year has transferred over to Darrick Martin this year.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

I have no problem with Ford, I would let him start, and play about 20min a game,and Calderon the rest.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

i dont agree w/ the 20min thing but i think calderon closing out games would be good for the team some nights.


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## BaLLiStiX17 (Mar 27, 2005)

billfindlay10 said:


> Jose shot 6 for 10.....fantastic for a guard....TJ went 4-12...not good for anyone.


Though didn't get to watch todays game so I can't same much but
Today Jose 4-13 

Does this mean Calderon is **** no so settle down man.
Be patient, look at Bosh it looks like he's starting to turn it around.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

I just finished reading this thread and I am amazed to find that alot of the current concerns about TJ Ford were the same ones we had with him in Milwaukee, lots of dribbling and looking to create his own shot. I have seen him play a couple times this year and his jump shot looks much improved, but i dont see him being the reason why the Raptors are off to a slow start, that can be put more on Bosh's extremely slow start. The fact is TJ is doing the same thing this year that he did his first three years in Milwaukee and last year in Toronto, his flaws are alot easier to look past when your team in winning the divison like the raps did in 06-07, but when you are playing average to below average ball like the Bucks did his first three years in the league and Toronto is right now its easy to pick him apart. Ford is a nice player and will be a solid pg in this league for many years but the facts are that his physical limitations and the style of basketball he needs to play in order to be successful will always make him a bi-polar type of player.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

If you are trying to grasp TJ Ford's performance by reading this thread, chances are it might be a bit misleading. There is a ongoing rift within Raptor fans regarding Ford and Calderon, and both sides are always presenting arguments that are slanted towards their guy. The best way is still to watch the games and see it for yourself. From what I'm seeing this year, Ford has shown a lot of improvement from last season. It's still far from being perfect, but there are signs that he is starting to understand how to run a winning team.

TJ does dribble too much from time to time, but it's far from the "He's always dribbling in circles" description that some of his haters are saying. He still takes some bad shots, but it's not nearly as bad as last season, his increased FG% is a testament to that. Ditto to his end game decisions. He has made some bad ones, but at the same time, he has made some big shots late that put us in positions to win the game (remembers the Boston game?).

There are many teams out there that would love to have TJ Ford as their starting point guard. Some of our fans are just spoiled to the point where they cannot stand a 24 year old point guard who's averaging 15 and 8 and a 3.44 asst/to ratio in less than 29 minutes. He is easily a top 10 PG in the game today with plenty of upside. It's just amazing how many of our fans don't appreciate what he's doing for our team.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

well said, & i co-sign that. i'm one of the neutral tho, i laugh at these raptors fans making drama out of nothing, worried that our two guys arent playing as good as the other, like the media, things are going well they are no where to be found but in a game you might lose by 1 point, they are just finding problems to get mad about. im syked to have forderon, i think we need both calderon & ford playing how they are playing to be a winner.

like Ford himself said the other night, it's a matter of doing what we have been doing, we are getting the open shots, guys are getting the system from the past 2 games, defensively we are showing big improvement closing out, realized we have to get inside to close it out, pay mind on defense when the shot isnt falling.. bosh physical game is catching up with his mental, he can now do what he wants to do to lead the team.

6point win @ Memphis
6point loss @ Dallas

Bosh: 54pts, 31rbs
Bargs: 33pts, 16rbs

its a matter of the players getting in season shape, all while getting in the groove @ the same time.


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## chocolove (Apr 4, 2006)

The biggest thing that bothers me about Ford is his reluctance to give the ball to Bargnani, once he starts doing that then we're golden


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

chocolove said:


> The biggest thing that bothers me about Ford is his reluctance to give the ball to Bargnani, once he starts doing that then we're golden


I can't refute this since I have no concrete evidence, but I will say that last year a good chunk of Ford's passes were towards Bargnani. He had even passed more to Bargnani than Calderon had. 

Of course I'm just going on about what I've seen from the past providing no link or proof of my findings, so this is all hearsay.

Regardless, when he does get the minutes Bargnani does get a fair number of shots. Probably second most (next to Bosh) on the team and I think it's only evident when he's making them and when he's not making them some people think he's being frozen out or Ford is not putting him in ample position to score.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

southeasy said:


> its a matter of the players getting in season shape, all while getting in the groove @ the same time.


You may have found improvement based on that Memphis game. A win probably makes it easier to believe so. But from what I saw last night was sloppiness and careless plays throughout the game. No one was really in control and either team could have won at any moment. Not very encouraging going up against a team that's supposedly a bottom-feeder in the league.

I'm not taking anything away from Calderon since this was his first start to the season, but I didn't feel he ran the team very well in that game.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

oh you know it, definitly right, we are not yet playing the kind of ball we need to be, but chris bosh has stepped up big, you can't go against that, and he is supposed to be our leader, he is starting to lead, so the rest of the team should, and i think will fall in line in no time.. not worried yet... still have 70 games.


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## lucc19 (Feb 24, 2005)

I'm So Sick Of the guy that did this post, stop jumping on caldrons dick


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

BaLLiStiX17 said:


> Though didn't get to watch todays game so I can't same much but
> Today Jose 4-13
> 
> Does this mean Calderon is **** no so settle down man.
> Be patient, look at Bosh it looks like he's starting to turn it around.



Even after that poor shooting game Jose is averaging .490 from the field, .421 from 3, and .92 from the free throw line.

Ford on the other hand .474 from the field(not bad for TJ), .250 from three(crappy), and .88 from the stripe.

My point is not to say that Ford is crap, but I feel Jose would be the better starter. Why can't Ford be the spark plug off the bench? Probably because his ego would have him become a sulker.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

croco said:


> I would trade Devin Harris for him :whistling:


why the hell would they want to make that trade... when the rockets are willing to give them mike james back :biggrin:


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

Really? Jose is the better starter?
So far, the Raptors were winning with TJ and had the lead against Dallas until he suffered the stinger.

4-13 and then 3-10 = 7 for 23 
Not to mention the countless 3 pointers from opposing point guards. 
Yes, he had 13 assists today but let's remember that TJ's averaging 9 assists a game. 

I just really fail to see how the Raptors would be better off without TJ when all the guy does is win.

I like Calderon, don't get me wrong. He's a nice change of pace point guard and settles things down, running the half court offense with more efficiency. 
And yes, I agree, TJ can be slightly out of control and looks for his shot too much at times, but he's the only player on our team that can create for himself with consistence outside of Bosh. Not to mention that TJ doesn't have an athletic winger and slasher that he so badly needs. Calderon just doesn't seem like the point guard that can take over games when the team is stuck in a stalemate/funk. And really, TJ's ceiling/potential is head and shoulders above Calderon's in my opinion.

People talk about Nash and Kidd etc... look at who they have as finishers: All athletic physical finishers that consistently cut to the net. The Raps just need an efficient athletic wing and I really think that TJ's game will elevate with such an addition.


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## Onions Baby (Mar 12, 2007)

Ford is averaging 8 assists, not nine. I'll take 3-10 from the field if my PG drops 13 dimes and turns and has no turnovers, knowing that his shooting will improve considering he is a 50% FG player.


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

Onions said:


> Ford is averaging 8 assists, not nine. I'll take 3-10 from the field if my PG drops 13 dimes and turns and has no turnovers, knowing that his shooting will improve considering he is a 50% FG player.


What's your point? How does this differ from T.J.?
T.J. dropped 12 and 14 assists at one point this season and one turnover in each of those games (vs. Phili and Chicago)
Not to mention, T.J. is shooting 47.5% (6 FGM - 12.5 FGA)

T.J is averaging 15 and 8 in 28 minutes with 2 TO.
Calderon is avraging 9 and 6 in 21 minutes with 1 TO.

I'm just trying to prove that there's such an odd bias towards Calderon and different magnifying lens on T.J.'s play and numbers than our back-up.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

i reiterate again, there is no point guard controversy in t.o.

fake fanboys just like to make problems when there is a good thing, some of you are too critical to have real knowledge.

best two point guard combo in the league, period.


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## Onions Baby (Mar 12, 2007)

SickGame said:


> What's your point? How does this differ from T.J.?
> T.J. dropped 12 and 14 assists at one point this season and one turnover in each of those games (vs. Phili and Chicago)
> Not to mention, T.J. is shooting 47.5% (6 FGM - 12.5 FGA)
> 
> ...



So I get 12 assists for every 2 turnovers with Calderon, only 8 per 2 turnovers with TJ.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, just defending Jose, TJ is a great player no doubt.


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## AllEyezonTX (Nov 16, 2006)

Onions said:


> So I get 12 assists for every 2 turnovers with Calderon, only 8 per 2 turnovers with TJ.
> 
> I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, just defending Jose, TJ is a great player no doubt.


Jose on the denfensive side of the ball is where he falls short


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

Onions said:


> So I get 12 assists for every 2 turnovers with Calderon, only 8 per 2 turnovers with TJ.
> 
> I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, just defending Jose, TJ is a great player no doubt.


....That's assuming Calderon will get another 6 assists in the 7 minute differential in playing time, which seems unlikely to say the least.


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

AllEyezonTX said:


> Jose on the denfensive side of the ball is where he falls short


are you saying jose isnt as good defensively as tj?

i think as far as point guards go, calderon is a damn good pg defender.


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## SickGame (Jan 23, 2006)

southeasy said:


> are you saying jose isnt as good defensively as tj?
> 
> *i think as far as point guards go, calderon is a damn good pg defender*.


Yeah...you're like...wrong, heh.

That's a bad statement to make when Jose keeps getting beat over and over again by opposing point guards and leaves his man open for open threes.
Not that I think T.J.'s a great defender but to call Jose 'a damn good pg defender' in retrospect to the entire NBA is...just wrong.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Jose may not be a premiere point guard defender, but i would say he is better then Ford.

Again for the record. Ford is a good player, I just feel Jose is the better starter for this team.


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## Onions Baby (Mar 12, 2007)

Calderon 19 points, 14 dimes, ONE turnover today.

Trade TJ!


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## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

haha yeah right.. Lol @ Smitchell telling the CBC guy he ruined Joses perfect game TO streak.. he was ballin out of control today, w/o Teej, guys like Moon & Calderon remind you of the depth and you can't help but get hyped.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

His assist to turnover ratio is ridiculous. He's 3rd the league technically and I don't think Conley or Rasual Butler have played enough so he is pretty much the best in the league, he needs to play at least 30min a game consistently.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Calderon and TJ Ford are both really good.

One should not get down on either of them, but both have room for improvement.

Calderon was partly responsible for the loss against Cleveland. He was TERRIBLE at picking up his guy when LBJ was bringing up the ball, he consistently lost Gibson etc in the corner, for NINE treys. (OK maybe not all 9 were Jose's).

I still love the guy. 1 TO in 2 games!


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