# Season in Retrospect...



## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

As the season draws to a close, I imagine that there are many Knick fans that are disappointed and frustrated. I'm skeptical about this 2010 plan and I'm even more skeptical of D'Antoni's coaching abilities. If your like me, you can litteraly spend days complaining about things that have been done wrong here but I'm curious to hear what you all would have done differently this season if given the opportunity to make trades, signings, coaching changes/philosophy shifts, etc. The floor is yours...


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

other than getting Curry in the games early so he could play himself into shape and getting douglass and hill in the games more early in the season there isn't much that would have made a big difference ...lee was an all star but he is not a center and no team can win consistently with him at center , he is too small and he doesn't defend his man or the lane add to that the knicks are essentially a finesse team without curry out there and he is only tough on offense on defense he is a bit of a softie too there is no chance that anyone could make up for that weakness save hill...but he needs about 20 lbs be4 thats gonna happen in the nba.


in truth this season was killed last season when they dealt crawford and randolph for what amounted to al harrington and scraps...its just not who you deal but when you deal them, both zach's and jamal's stock have risen significantly since being dealt just because they are on winning teams and are more efficient scorers ...which both were doing just fine efficiency-wise in d'antoni's offense on the knicks when they were dealt...but the lack of acquiring of any league desired assets in the process has had a domino effect...since they really didn't have anything the rockets wanted they had to give away 3 picks(these are the sort of deals that can haunt a team really bad.)...they also had nothing really to package with mobley's contract so it was wasted too..


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Da Grinch said:


> other than getting Curry in the games early so he could play himself into shape and getting douglass and hill in the games more early in the season there isn't much that would have made a big difference ...lee was an all star but he is not a center and no team can win consistently with him at center , he is too small and he doesn't defend his man or the lane add to that the knicks are essentially a finesse team without curry out there and he is only tough on offense on defense he is a bit of a softie too there is no chance that anyone could make up for that weakness save hill...but he needs about 20 lbs be4 thats gonna happen in the nba.
> 
> 
> in truth this season was killed last season when they dealt crawford and randolph for what amounted to al harrington and scraps...its just not who you deal but when you deal them, both zach's and jamal's stock have risen significantly since being dealt just because they are on winning teams and are more efficient scorers ...which both were doing just fine efficiency-wise in d'antoni's offense on the knicks when they were dealt...but the lack of acquiring of any league desired assets in the process has had a domino effect...since they really didn't have anything the rockets wanted they had to give away 3 picks(these are the sort of deals that can haunt a team really bad.)...they also had nothing really to package with mobley's contract so it was wasted too..


Ironically, I believe the deal that hurt us most in retrospect was one that we did not make. Had Donnie Walsh accepted the Kings deal for Kenny Thomas and filler in exchange for Nate Robinson and Jared Jefferies, we would never have been forced to make that franchise crippling deal for Tracy McGrady in order to ditch Jefferies' contract. The effects of not taking the deal is two-fold because lossing Nate Robinson would have likely contributed to more losses and a higher pick in the 2009 draft....enter Steph Curry, who looks like he is on the cusp of being one of the league's premier PG's. It's really a shame that in a draft stock full of pass-first PG's, the Knicks came up empty especially when our entire system is predicated on all-star caliber play from that position.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

I go back to last season when the Kings were willing to deal Kenny Thomas who's contract comes off the books this year for Jared Jeffries and Nate Robinson. That entire trade of Hill/Picks to get rid of Jeffries would have never been needed to saddle somebody else with his contract. You would also have to assume that the Knicks would have been worse last year without Robinson. According to win shares, he would have contributed about three wins from the time of the trade deadline, which would have put the Knicks in a tie with the Warriors and then maybe the Knicks get Stephon Curry instead of Jordan Hill.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

Damn it Twinkie, you posted the same thing I did at the same time!


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Da Grinch said:


> other than getting Curry in the games early so he could play himself into shape and getting douglass and hill in the games more early in the season there isn't much that would have made a big difference ...lee was an all star but he is not a center and no team can win consistently with him at center , he is too small and he doesn't defend his man or the lane add to that the knicks are essentially a finesse team without curry out there and he is only tough on offense on defense he is a bit of a softie too there is no chance that anyone could make up for that weakness save hill...but he needs about 20 lbs be4 thats gonna happen in the nba.
> 
> 
> in truth this season was killed last season when they dealt crawford and randolph for what amounted to al harrington and scraps...its just not who you deal but when you deal them, both zach's and jamal's stock have risen significantly since being dealt just because they are on winning teams and are more efficient scorers ...which both were doing just fine efficiency-wise in d'antoni's offense on the knicks when they were dealt...but the lack of acquiring of any league desired assets in the process has had a domino effect...since they really didn't have anything the rockets wanted they had to give away 3 picks(these are the sort of deals that can haunt a team really bad.)...they also had nothing really to package with mobley's contract so it was wasted too..


On a seperate note...
1.) Do you really believe Eddy Curry can fit in this system? I felt that the chances of him doing so were slim to none and it appears as though he has proven that. As much as playing time may have helped him get into shape, he can't stay healthy when all he is doing is just practicing. What would happen if he actually played in a game?

2.) We likely could have gotten Tracy McGrady for nothing but expiring contracts had Jared Jefferies not been part of the deal. The Rockets had already struck a deal with the Kings for Martin in exchange with McGrady, before the Knicks stepped in. Do you really think the Kings made the deal in order to hold onto Tracy? I think the deal was made purely for financial relief and that is specifically where a contract like Mobley's would have been particularly valuable.

3.) The reason why I'm so skeptical of 2010 is because of how unlikely it is for players to change teams, especially LeBron. If we miss him then what is really out there? As good as Dwayne Wade is, he can't help the Heat be anything better than a mediocre team. How much would he really improve the Knicks? And if he can't do it, how likely is a 29 year old Joe Johnson (that is likely going to start his decline) help. Chris Bosh? Just look at the Raptors. Adding a 2nd 2nd-tier player might solve a lot of these issues but we are again betting against the odds. What makes matters worse is that we won't be having our lottery pick the next 3 years if we miss out on these guys and/or the playoffs. We may have some seriously gloomy basketball ahead of us.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

urwhatueati8god said:


> Damn it Twinkie, you posted the same thing I did at the same time!


LOL, I guess its another case of the great minds syndrome.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

TwinkieFoot said:


> On a seperate note...
> 1.) Do you really believe Eddy Curry can fit in this system? I felt that the chances of him doing so were slim to none and it appears as though he has proven that. As much as playing time may have helped him get into shape, he can't stay healthy when all he is doing is just practicing. What would happen if he actually played in a game?
> 
> 2.) We likely could have gotten Tracy McGrady for nothing but expiring contracts had Jared Jefferies not been part of the deal. The Rockets had already struck a deal with the Kings for Martin in exchange with McGrady, before the Knicks stepped in. Do you really think the Kings made the deal in order to hold onto Tracy? I think the deal was made purely for financial relief and that is specifically where a contract like Mobley's would have been particularly valuable.
> ...



1. i think curry would have some difficulty from a passing and bball IQ prospective , but he can hit a 15fter and the only 2 times he has shot a 3 he's hit them, i think with some game experience he could have made it to JJ's level of jumper if not better pretty quickly and he is far better near the basket, he has looked bad because he has been a step slow, but its not like D'antoni couldn't add a play or 2 to get the best out of the team like when shaq played for him.

2. its definitely possible, but i never thought that deal was real, 2 months earlier zach and jamal were given away but nate was so valued the kings were gonna take jeffries to get him? walsh would be a fool to turn that down especially given how his head coach even then regarded nate.

3. i never thought James wanted to leave , i pretty much equate it to kobe's flirtation a few years ago , he never wanted to leave the lakers for the clippers but he wanted to be pursued and wooed by other teams like he never really got in h.s. because everyone knew he was going pro. i think Lebron will listen to the knicks and nets and whomever else give them a chance to sway him but ultimately the chips are stacked against every1 the cavs are a title contender and its his hometown and they have built the team to his liking , to come to ny ,nj and the like means they will have to build around him there and that could take a couple of years at the least, as much as i like the knicks and nets young core outside of devin harris who that will be on the team next year on either team has even been to the playoffs ?

at this point in james' career the reg. season means little its how he and his team does in the postseason that he will ultimately earn his legacy, i cant see him leaving for uncertainty...wade i could see going to chicago because its his hometown and the have derrick rose a legit #2 to him that doesn't exist in mia.(sorry beas, you aint there yet)

the next rung amare , joe johnson and bosh i'm like :sigh: they are good players but no smart GM would spend the max on any of them , johnson and bosh because their play has never merited such pay and amare because of his multiple surgeries, lack of leadership and apathy on defense but now that he is in his stretch run for a contract he is showing the world when properly motivated he can be a player worth it but its a risk if he isn't so motivated after he gets his money...i'm betting he wont be.

p.s. i maintain and always thought the knicks best bet was building a team around 2011's fa market when their contracts come off the books ...Melo I think the knicks can get in fact i would bet on them getting him for several reasons his wife has her career based here , he has ny roots and he genuinely enjoys it here , he isn't giving some canned speech about how MSG is "the mecca " he is the kind of guy who spends at least some of his offseason here whether he is a knick or not. there appears to be a chance that c.paul could be moved with the way collison is playing and shinn's rumored cheapness

without having to slash salaries the knicks could have added talent the last 2 seasons , would never have had to deal jeffries , hill or the picks could have kept jamal and zach, or at least dealt them later for comparable talent that fit with the head coach's style of play...and could have been a team that was fun to watch.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Da Grinch said:


> 1. i think curry would have some difficulty from a passing and bball IQ prospective , but he can hit a 15fter and the only 2 times he has shot a 3 he's hit them, i think with some game experience he could have made it to JJ's level of jumper if not better pretty quickly and he is far better near the basket, he has looked bad because he has been a step slow, but its not like D'antoni couldn't add a play or 2 to get the best out of the team like when shaq played for him.


I agree with you on Curry's capabilities as a player. I use to be one of his strongest supporters but think that what appears to be pure laziness impedes any chance of him really contributing long-term. There came a point for me when I stopped attributing all these "injuries" of his to freak accidents and started attributing them to piss-poor conditioning. That being the case, I just don't think he'll be able to make it in this system in which you need to be in tip-top shape.



Da Grinch said:


> 2. its definitely possible, but i never thought that deal was real, 2 months earlier zach and jamal were given away but nate was so valued the kings were gonna take jeffries to get him? walsh would be a fool to turn that down especially given how his head coach even then regarded nate.


The thing is that you and I both know that Nate is much more marketable as a player than either Randolph or Crawford. His height and charm endear him to fans because it makes him relatable. I mean, neither Randolph or Crawford got a billboard in front of the Garden...Robinson did. Considering that the Maloofs were especially hit hard by the economic downturn, I can understand their initial interest in obtaining him because he sells merchandise and puts fans in the stands. As for Jefferies, his contract was far from cap-killing and he doubled as a player that was a fit in their system. Needless to say, I think the deal was very real but Walsh balked because he wanted to make the playoffs. For what reason? I don't know.



Da Grinch said:


> 3. i never thought James wanted to leave , i pretty much equate it to kobe's flirtation a few years ago , he never wanted to leave the lakers for the clippers but he wanted to be pursued and wooed by other teams like he never really got in h.s. because everyone knew he was going pro. i think Lebron will listen to the knicks and nets and whomever else give them a chance to sway him but ultimately the chips are stacked against every1 the cavs are a title contender and its his hometown and they have built the team to his liking , to come to ny ,nj and the like means they will have to build around him there and that could take a couple of years at the least, as much as i like the knicks and nets young core outside of devin harris who that will be on the team next year on either team has even been to the playoffs ?


I have gone back and forth with the LeBron thing. I've considered Danny Ferry (and still do) an inept GM that has been blessed by the fact that he has the best player in the world on his team. Up until recently (with the Jamison addition), many of his deals failed to make sense (paying Vareajo $10 million per year) and failed to obtain a complimentary player next to LeBron to ease his burden (see the Larry Hughes signing). Had they not lucked out this season from the Wizards sucking, I think LeBron to NY might have been a realistic possibility. Now, not so much.



Da Grinch said:


> at this point in james' career the reg. season means little its how he and his team does in the postseason that he will ultimately earn his legacy, i cant see him leaving for uncertainty...wade i could see going to chicago because its his hometown and the have derrick rose a legit #2 to him that doesn't exist in mia.(sorry beas, you aint there yet)


Rose doesn't fit with Wade. That duo would be a waste of the others talents, since both guys need the ball in order for them to be who they are. I don't think Wade leaves under any circumstance.



Da Grinch said:


> the next rung amare , joe johnson and bosh i'm like :sigh: they are good players but no smart GM would spend the max on any of them , johnson and bosh because their play has never merited such pay and amare because of his multiple surgeries, lack of leadership and apathy on defense but now that he is in his stretch run for a contract he is showing the world when properly motivated he can be a player worth it but its a risk if he isn't so motivated after he gets his money...i'm betting he wont be.


LOL, at this point, I would throw whatever those two guys (Johnson and Bosh) wanted because we can't afford to lose after this season. Having dealt away our lottery picks, we have lost any and all leverage in negogiations with them because we have no other options to significantly improve this team. I'd give them the pay but certainly not a lengthy number of years, which is really what this team needs to be cautious of. Johnson, McGrady and Bosh would get the job done for our team.

P.S., I like Amare to but dislike him for the same reasons. I also think its a matter of time before those surgeries catch up to him and becomes a shell of his present self.



Da Grinch said:


> p.s. i maintain and always thought the knicks best bet was building a team around 2011's fa market when their contracts come off the books ...Melo I think the knicks can get in fact i would bet on them getting him for several reasons his wife has her career based here , he has ny roots and he genuinely enjoys it here , he isn't giving some canned speech about how MSG is "the mecca " he is the kind of guy who spends at least some of his offseason here whether he is a knick or not. there appears to be a chance that c.paul could be moved with the way collison is playing and shinn's rumored cheapness


Really? Melo is my favorite player but I doubt he comes to NY for the same reasons LeBron and Wade won't. It offers little in the way of title contention as the Nuggets currently do. Although the team is getting older, they are in a position to make that transition from the older guys to the younger guys and still remain competitive. I do think Melo has "stars" in his eyes and would certainly benefit from the move in terms of global marketability but I still doubt he leaves Denver. 

I think Chris Paul might be realistic (via trade) but wonder whether he's even the player that we think him to be. I've taken a good look at his game and have started to question whether his success is a product of his own doing or simply the system he operates in. We know that the style of play for the Hornets is conducive to high stats from PG's; just take a look at apparent "superstar" Darren Collison out there. Remove Paul from the system and what would happen? With his inability to stay healthy do you also believe that he'll be able to maintain his physical prowess until at least 30? I doubt it given his small stature and lack of any physically dominant traits.



Da Grinch said:


> without having to slash salaries the knicks could have added talent the last 2 seasons , would never have had to deal jeffries , hill or the picks could have kept jamal and zach, or at least dealt them later for comparable talent that fit with the head coach's style of play...and could have been a team that was fun to watch.


I have no qualms with having dealt Jamal and Zach. The only issue I have had with this plan is what amounted to us sacrificing draft picks. Time has taught us that those are the kind of things that can seriously cripple the development of a franchise for decades. Just think, we could have LaMarcus Aldridge/Brandon Roy and Joakim Noah right now.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Side note, anyone think we can obtain Derrick Rose for Chris Paul if we can acquire Paul in the first place? lol.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

P.S., What about Michael Redd? I believe that the Bucks no longer need him with John Salmons aboard and have shown a tendency to move big contracts merely for cap space/financial flexibility. He could be a solid bail out plan should we be unable to land 1 or more all-stars.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

*This is a great read "THREAD" everyone response has some strong points.* 

*1)* Eddy Curry couldve been a valuable asset to this team by hiring coach Patrick Ewing in the 2008 offseason, plus holding on to bigman trainer Mark Aquire (we kept Herb Williams for no reason at all). 
*2)* Although Renaldo Balkman dont get any minutes of playingtime in Denver, his strong bumbing-bodies in the paint, screening for teammates, hustling defense, rebounds, and great passing on the break got Curry, Frye, Lee, Chandler, Crawford, and Nate into the game like the Spurs Bowen and Malik used to do. 
*3)* Having a plan to decrease cap space within the next two seasons with 6 young rookie contract players on the roster, plus having the 6th selection in the 2008 Lottery draft shouldve had our new President Donnie Walsh looking to add 2 of the NBA experience developing coaches to our staff to build on the young core of players. 
*a)* The Knicks did not need a Euroleague coach who only had 4 years experience as a NBA coach with three 50 win seasons from an already playoff experience veteran roster. 
*b)* The Knicks Curry, Zach, Lee, Jeff, Balkman, and Chandler frontcourt bigmen showed little to no effort under headcoach Isiah Thomas and assistant Herb Williams. 
As Knick-fans alot of us did not agree with Isiah Thomas coaching and substitution of players especially his favoring a 3-guard lineup for two seasons in a row. 
*c)* New President Donnie Walsh was supposed to hire a new G.M., assistant G.M., new headcoach, and a new assistant headcoach, to change the atmosphere, style, and performance of Curry, Zach, and Lee. 
*4)* The Knicks goal and plan at the start of the 2008-9 season was to win 35 games before the February trading deadline in 2009, which wouldve offered a better "player for player" trade (Zach for Boozer) on the deadline and the 2009 offseason. This way all the previous unsuccessful seasons blame wouldve been put on Isiah Thomas and not any of the Knick players so their value and trade worth increased to benefit the 2010 Plan. 
*5)* The Knicks organization did not learn anything from hiring Utahs assistant G.M. Layden, b/c the day we hired headcoach Mike D'Antoni the Knicks been making mistake after mistake after mistake...


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

TwinkieFoot said:


> I agree with you on Curry's capabilities as a player. I use to be one of his strongest supporters but think that what appears to be pure laziness impedes any chance of him really contributing long-term. There came a point for me when I stopped attributing all these "injuries" of his to freak accidents and started attributing them to piss-poor conditioning. That being the case, I just don't think he'll be able to make it in this system in which you need to be in tip-top shape.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is that you and I both know that Nate is much more marketable as a player than either Randolph or Crawford. His height and charm endear him to fans because it makes him relatable. I mean, neither Randolph or Crawford got a billboard in front of the Garden...Robinson did. Considering that the Maloofs were especially hit hard by the economic downturn, I can understand their initial interest in obtaining him because he sells merchandise and puts fans in the stands. As for Jefferies, his contract was far from cap-killing and he doubled as a player that was a fit in their system. Needless to say, I think the deal was very real but Walsh balked because he wanted to make the playoffs. For what reason? I don't know.


nate doesn't sell tickets , the knicks will sellout almost with any grouping of players on the roster just because there are 9 million people in this city and its a hot ticket. there is certainly no big clamoring for him to play now that he's in beantown, he's entertaining but at the end of the day his lack of size and consistent pg play will leave him to be a bench player no matter how well he is scoring , his marketability now that he is no longer a knick has been shown to be severely overrated, because ultimately if you cant help your team win (and he is currently not in the celtics rotation) you mean very little in the scheme of things .

crawford is making over 10 mil. and is basically just waiting for the announcement that he is the 6th man of the year....zach is making 17 mil and is an all star , if nate makes much more than 3-4 mil. next season it will be a surprise ...his marketability was never like a prime iverson who regularly added significantly to team's home attendance when he played road games or the main reason his team's attendance was good.

i think on a team that needs scoring punch and has another good guard who can defend and play both guard spots ala kirk hinrich nate would be awesome , he could just play his game which is very versatile on the offensive end, he can shoot , break down a defense, pass when he is so inclined, even rebound and make hustle plays because he is so fast...





> I have gone back and forth with the LeBron thing. I've considered Danny Ferry (and still do) an inept GM that has been blessed by the fact that he has the best player in the world on his team. Up until recently (with the Jamison addition), many of his deals failed to make sense (paying Vareajo $10 million per year) and failed to obtain a complimentary player next to LeBron to ease his burden (see the Larry Hughes signing). Had they not lucked out this season from the Wizards sucking, I think LeBron to NY might have been a realistic possibility. Now, not so much.


i try to look at past trends and the player's prospective, max-level stars rarely leave and when they do its usually because of family roots (grant hill's wife's family lived in fla. as did eddie jones who forced a s&T as did t-mac in 2000)

lebron is from ohio so the question is why would he go to a worse team for less money away from his home state?

at the end of the day i find it hard to believe he ever wanted to go especially when the fans and press still adore him but that he wanted to be recruited and wooed i think at he'll listen and give walsh a chance but ultimately stay because there is really nothing donnie can say that can sway him?



> Rose doesn't fit with Wade. That duo would be a waste of the others talents, since both guys need the ball in order for them to be who they are. I don't think Wade leaves under any circumstance.


wade doesn't fit with lebron either according to that logic and yet i think any sane person would take their chances ...but 2 dominant guards can work quite well provided they have the right mindset to make it work...i.thomas and joe dumars didn't have a problem and both of them needed the ball to be effective. but like i said i dont think rose is a guy who demands to be #1 in fact he is in my opinion the perfect #2 guy , capable of getting his own shot when he pleases but would rather get others involved(ala scottie pippen) , he has said on numerous occasions he wants wade to come he would not mind taking a backseat. it was only 2 years ago he won a ncaa title taking a backseat to a less talented player in CDR.




> LOL, at this point, I would throw whatever those two guys (Johnson and Bosh) wanted because we can't afford to lose after this season. Having dealt away our lottery picks, we have lost any and all leverage in negogiations with them because we have no other options to significantly improve this team. I'd give them the pay but certainly not a lengthy number of years, which is really what this team needs to be cautious of. Johnson, McGrady and Bosh would get the job done for our team.


i see it different , desperate acts which to donnie's credit he tends not to fall into are what the team doesn't need,if it came down to joe johnson bosh or amare i dont see how logically he would chose a guard who almost a definite wont be worth it at 35 but bigs tend to age better and either way overpaying is what the good teams dont do at least before they are good teams...overpaying early dooms teams and its been shown time and time again...it would be better if he only got 1 and waited to 2011 or suplimented the team with decent players to fill the holes on the roster and as of right now the only leaguewide starters on the team are gallo , chandler and lee....and lee should not be resigned for what he wants.




> P.S., I like Amare to but dislike him for the same reasons. I also think its a matter of time before those surgeries catch up to him and becomes a shell of his present self.


time will team but he is the only all nba performer out of bosh himself and johnson, he is the only one capable of carrying a team by himself...and if you cant carry a team IMO you dont deserve the max.





> Really? Melo is my favorite player but I doubt he comes to NY for the same reasons LeBron and Wade won't. It offers little in the way of title contention as the Nuggets currently do. Although the team is getting older, they are in a position to make that transition from the older guys to the younger guys and still remain competitive. I do think Melo has "stars" in his eyes and would certainly benefit from the move in terms of global marketability but I still doubt he leaves Denver.
> 
> I think Chris Paul might be realistic (via trade) but wonder whether he's even the player that we think him to be. I've taken a good look at his game and have started to question whether his success is a product of his own doing or simply the system he operates in. We know that the style of play for the Hornets is conducive to high stats from PG's; just take a look at apparent "superstar" Darren Collison out there. Remove Paul from the system and what would happen? With his inability to stay healthy do you also believe that he'll be able to maintain his physical prowess until at least 30? I doubt it given his small stature and lack of any physically dominant traits.


like i said before the only times a player has left before (this is since the the last CBA changed the rules) its been because of family roots, Melo has family in BK, his wife Lala last i heard worked for MTV which is based in manhattan...he too would have to leave a better team for less money, at least i could see the possibility because of that . 




> I have no qualms with having dealt Jamal and Zach. The only issue I have had with this plan is what amounted to us sacrificing draft picks. Time has taught us that those are the kind of things that can seriously cripple the development of a franchise for decades. Just think, we could have LaMarcus Aldridge/Brandon Roy and Joakim Noah right now.


all players cold hearted to say are just assets to an org. my main gripe is that they threw away assets for less quality the last 2 seasons and will have nothing to show for it after 7/1/2010...i liked watching them play and they have shown that they are good players ...the team's main problem isn't the good players they have had , but that they haven't had enough of them...having 3 good players on the floor at the end of games while the other team has 5 is a recipe for failure and no amount of SSoL or gimmicks is gonna help when the other team is forcefeeding their star player and you are running P&R's with duhon and lee just like you did the 1st 3 quarters.

i cant really worry about what paul will do at 30 ...he's still just 24, i'll agree history hasn't been kind guards his size in their 30's but that is some time away and sometimes players defy logic like stockton did , we''ll know in 5 years if he is gonna fall of the cliff , you never know at 24 t-MAC looked like he was gonna be an all time great , now at 30 he may not even return to the nba next season....to me you have to wait longer to specualte on his long term viability...he may not even be in his prime yet, he may have better seasons ahead of him ...and then again maybe not.

or maybe to some degree byron scott is a kingmaker at pg all the pg's he has had have had their best seasons under him (kidd baron, paul) it may not be a coincidence.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Da Grinch said:


> nate doesn't sell tickets , the knicks will sellout almost with any grouping of players on the roster just because there are 9 million people in this city and its a hot ticket. there is certainly no big clamoring for him to play now that he's in beantown, he's entertaining but at the end of the day his lack of size and consistent pg play will leave him to be a bench player no matter how well he is scoring , his marketability now that he is no longer a knick has been shown to be severely overrated, because ultimately if you cant help your team win (and he is currently not in the celtics rotation) you mean very little in the scheme of things .


Right. The Knicks will always sellout regardless of the product on the floor. So will the Celtics who are in another major market. But a team like Sacramento that doesn't have the benefit of being a major U.S. city will not sellout unless they have a winner on the floor. I'm not saying that Sacramento would have started the guy but he certainly could have been apart of their rotation.



Da Grinch said:


> crawford is making over 10 mil. and is basically just waiting for the announcement that he is the 6th man of the year....zach is making 17 mil and is an all star , if nate makes much more than 3-4 mil. next season it will be a surprise ...his marketability was never like a prime iverson who regularly added significantly to team's home attendance when he played road games or the main reason his team's attendance was good.


Nate certainly is not even in the realm of an Iverson (in his prime) but he does bare the label of a fan favorite because of his attitude and relatability. Those are the kind of people that attract people to an arena regardless of their clout as a legitimate player. For instance, Jerome Williams had the "Junk Yard Dog Pack" in Toronto despite being just a rotation player.



Da Grinch said:


> i* think on a team that needs scoring punch and has another good guard who can defend and play both guard spots ala kirk hinrich nate would be awesome ,* he could just play his game which is very versatile on the offensive end, he can shoot , break down a defense, pass when he is so inclined, even rebound and make hustle plays because he is so fast...


You mean like Tyreke Evans?






Da Grinch said:


> i try to look at past trends and the player's prospective, max-level stars rarely leave and when they do its usually because of family roots (grant hill's wife's family lived in fla. as did eddie jones who forced a s&T as did t-mac in 2000)
> 
> lebron is from ohio so the question is why would he go to a worse team for less money away from his home state?
> 
> at the end of the day i find it hard to believe he ever wanted to go especially when the fans and press still adore him but that he wanted to be recruited and wooed i think at he'll listen and give walsh a chance but ultimately stay because there is really nothing donnie can say that can sway him?


Although I agree with your line of reasoning, I think LeBron is that much in love with himself that he'd leave Cleveland for the prospect of enhancing his own legend and bank account. The later could definitely be satisfied in New York, whereas the former might be a little bit more difficult to do given our current circumstances, in which we lack assets.



Da Grinch said:


> wade doesn't fit with lebron either according to that logic and yet i think any sane person would take their chances ...but 2 dominant guards can work quite well provided they have the right mindset to make it work...i.thomas and joe dumars didn't have a problem and both of them needed the ball to be effective. but like i said i dont think rose is a guy who demands to be #1 in fact he is in my opinion the perfect #2 guy , capable of getting his own shot when he pleases but would rather get others involved(ala scottie pippen) , he has said on numerous occasions he wants wade to come he would not mind taking a backseat. it was only 2 years ago he won a ncaa title taking a backseat to a less talented player in CDR.


Your right but I just feel that their assets would be better used investing them in a big man than necessarily a ball dominant 2 guard. 




Da Grinch said:


> i see it different , desperate acts which to donnie's credit he tends not to fall into are what the team doesn't need,if it came down to joe johnson bosh or amare i dont see how logically he would chose a guard who almost a definite wont be worth it at 35 but bigs tend to age better and either way overpaying is what the good teams dont do at least before they are good teams...overpaying early dooms teams and its been shown time and time again...it would be better if he only got 1 and waited to 2011 or suplimented the team with decent players to fill the holes on the roster and as of right now the only leaguewide starters on the team are gallo , chandler and lee....and lee should not be resigned for what he wants.
> 
> time will team but he is the only all nba performer out of bosh himself and johnson, he is the only one capable of carrying a team by himself...and if you cant carry a team IMO you dont deserve the max.


Walsh could front load Joe Johnson's contract to make his paygrade more appropriate for his game at 35 years old. I'd without a doubt, roll the dice and sign Joe Johnson if it meant also bringing in Chris Bosh. Although both guys are complimentary players, history has shown that you can build a winner by pairing them together with balanced play from role players i.e. the Pistons. With a healthy McGrady added to the mix, that team might have a chance at getting the best of LeBron; especially when you consider that Eddy Curry's expiring contract could be used to go after one of those stars in 2011.

I also disagree that Amare can carry a team. I think that as good a player as he is, he is very much the product of excellent PG play. 




Da Grinch said:


> like i said before the only times a player has left before (this is since the the last CBA changed the rules) its been because of family roots, Melo has family in BK, his wife Lala last i heard worked for MTV which is based in manhattan...he too would have to leave a better team for less money, at least i could see the possibility because of that .


It makes sense but i still just don't see it happening although I do have my fingers crossed.




Da Grinch said:


> all players cold hearted to say are just assets to an org. my main gripe is that they threw away assets for less quality the last 2 seasons and will have nothing to show for it after 7/1/2010...i liked watching them play and they have shown that they are good players ...the team's main problem isn't the good players they have had , but that they haven't had enough of them...having 3 good players on the floor at the end of games while the other team has 5 is a recipe for failure and no amount of SSoL or gimmicks is gonna help when the other team is forcefeeding their star player and you are running P&R's with duhon and lee just like you did the 1st 3 quarters.


Players of the Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford caliber can be acquired via trade especially for cap flexibility. I mean check out the Caron Butler deal, John Salmons deal, Marcus Camby deal from this season alone. If we have cap space, it makes picking up those kinds of players much easier. This is why I eventually warmed up to the idea of cap space BUT HATE the fact we sacrificed our future to get there. Because when cap space fails, and history shows that it has plenty of times, draft picks are the only option your left with. In reality, its the only way I've really seen a team pick up true franchise players and we've robbed ourselves of the ability to do that until 2013.



Da Grinch said:


> i cant really worry about what paul will do at 30 ...he's still just 24, i'll agree history hasn't been kind guards his size in their 30's but that is some time away and sometimes players defy logic like stockton did , we''ll know in 5 years if he is gonna fall of the cliff , you never know at 24 t-MAC looked like he was gonna be an all time great , now at 30 he may not even return to the nba next season....to me you have to wait longer to specualte on his long term viability...he may not even be in his prime yet, he may have better seasons ahead of him ...and then again maybe not.
> 
> or maybe to some degree byron scott is a kingmaker at pg all the pg's he has had have had their best seasons under him (kidd baron, paul) it may not be a coincidence.


When your giving up players that are assumed to be of potential quasi-allstar talent, factors such as long term viability of the players you're bringing in are things to worry about. If not, you get the Chris Webber-Mitch Richmond or Dale Davis-Jermaine O'Neal where you essentially lose a decade of all-star player in exchange for temporary rewards.

P.S., to my knowledge, Byron Scott has never coached Baron Davis in New Orleans. I could be wrong but doubt it.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

On a side note, another thing I wished we had done this season is tryout more D-League prospects that could stick on the team. Considering how much money likely will be tied into signing two allstars (if we're capable of doing so), we wont have the ability to bring in any high profile role players. D-League players have shown to be cheap despite being as capable as many lower-tier players on a roster. It feels like the Warriors have been the best at demonstrating this having added guys like Anthony Tolliver and Reggie Williams this past season, while already having former D-League players in CJ Watson and Kelenna Azuibuke.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

TwinkieFoot said:


> Right. The Knicks will always sellout regardless of the product on the floor. So will the Celtics who are in another major market. But a team like Sacramento that doesn't have the benefit of being a major U.S. city will not sellout unless they have a winner on the floor. I'm not saying that Sacramento would have started the guy but he certainly could have been apart of their rotation.


sactown actually historically has great attendance....in 6 of the last 9 seasons they have sold out every game for the season . the knicks and celts combined have 4 such seasons in the same time span(2 apiece)





> Nate certainly is not even in the realm of an Iverson (in his prime) but he does bare the label of a fan favorite because of his attitude and relatability. Those are the kind of people that attract people to an arena regardless of their clout as a legitimate player. For instance, Jerome Williams had the "Junk Yard Dog Pack" in Toronto despite being just a rotation player.


how many were in the dawg pound honestly 20-30 people? I suspect Air Canada had a much bigger effect than williams 





> You mean like Tyreke Evans?


you can say evans but it wouldn't have been a motivating factor since he was still in college when this deal was put forth.








> Although I agree with your line of reasoning, I think LeBron is that much in love with himself that he'd leave Cleveland for the prospect of enhancing his own legend and bank account. The later could definitely be satisfied in New York, whereas the former might be a little bit more difficult to do given our current circumstances, in which we lack assets.


LBJ is already a worldwide phenom, i have always doubted how much pull being in NY has , while MJ was making movies and building nike into the premier sneaker in the world Pat ewing could barely get endorsement deals. what was his biggest deal "the wiz"?(owned by the Dolans) what big deals did H2O get or latrell?

unless there is something in his nike deal that seriously boosts his $ being a winner will be the biggest padder of his pockets , and his best chance of doing that is not in NY.










> Walsh could front load Joe Johnson's contract to make his paygrade more appropriate for his game at 35 years old. I'd without a doubt, roll the dice and sign Joe Johnson if it meant also bringing in Chris Bosh. Although both guys are complimentary players, history has shown that you can build a winner by pairing them together with balanced play from role players i.e. the Pistons. With a healthy McGrady added to the mix, that team might have a chance at getting the best of LeBron; especially when you consider that Eddy Curry's expiring contract could be used to go after one of those stars in 2011.
> 
> I also disagree that Amare can carry a team. I think that as good a player as he is, he is very much the product of excellent PG play.


frontloading JJ's contract means a lower starting point for the other guy...i dont see that happening.

the pistons in the early going had very low contracts ...billups on the MLE , prince on his rookie deal , wallace was still underpaid ...its hard to fit a lot of talent in cap constraints without serious bargains....later is a different story when u can exceed the cap to resign talent.







> Players of the Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford caliber can be acquired via trade especially for cap flexibility. I mean check out the Caron Butler deal, John Salmons deal, Marcus Camby deal from this season alone. If we have cap space, it makes picking up those kinds of players much easier. This is why I eventually warmed up to the idea of cap space BUT HATE the fact we sacrificed our future to get there. Because when cap space fails, and history shows that it has plenty of times, draft picks are the only option your left with. In reality, its the only way I've really seen a team pick up true franchise players and we've robbed ourselves of the ability to do that until 2013.


i agree with everything here , i say if the knicks wind up getting midling star talent (just stars no superstars ) then they failed , they could have kept their midling talent and tried to build on that and if it failed than they still have draft picks ...this plan is a half court shot ...yeah its possible they could do it ...it just isn't likely.





> When your giving up players that are assumed to be of potential quasi-allstar talent, factors such as long term viability of the players you're bringing in are things to worry about. If not, you get the Chris Webber-Mitch Richmond or Dale Davis-Jermaine O'Neal where you essentially lose a decade of all-star player in exchange for temporary rewards.



when you are talking about 24 year olds for 32 year olds sure ...but CP3 is still 24 ...you can take a chance on that and no one will 2nd guess you ...if he were 29 maybe not depending on what you are giving up.




> P.S., to my knowledge, Byron Scott has never coached Baron Davis in New Orleans. I could be wrong but doubt it.


he did but i misspoke it was only for half a season they clashed and scott had him dealt to golden state....i thought byron coached him the season be4 too...i was wrong on that....on espn they mentioned they have since made up about 1-2 weeks ago when their teams matched up.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Da Grinch said:


> sactown actually historically has great attendance....in 6 of the last 9 seasons they have sold out every game for the season . the knicks and celts combined have 4 such seasons in the same time span(2 apiece)


I would imagine those past 3 seasons may account for that lull period they have had in attendance. That would be right around the time the team stopped being competitive, which is the point I was trying to make. As for the Celtics and Knicks because I can't find info regarding their attendance records but I doubt those teams have any trouble bringing people to the arena even if it isn't sold out in the most literal of terms.






Da Grinch said:


> how many were in the dawg pound honestly 20-30 people? I suspect Air Canada had a much bigger effect than williams


Not sure but the reality is that a large percentage of those people are causal sports fans that are attracted to the threatrics surrounding a particular player. I have no doubt Vince Carter had greater pull than Williams but lets be honest....it was Vince Carter. In Williams' defense, he had pretty good pull amongst fans for a guy that was never integral to a teams success.





Da Grinch said:


> you can say evans but it wouldn't have been a motivating factor since he was still in college when this deal was put forth.


I would imagine teams have already started scouting college players by the deadline in the season and would have a pretty good idea of what part of the draft they'd end up. I'm sure Evans was amongst a list of prospects but I have no doubt he'd been atop of their list much earlier than the draft especially when it wasn't a popular pick for them at the 4th spot.





Da Grinch said:


> LBJ is already a worldwide phenom, i have always doubted how much pull being in NY has , while MJ was making movies and building nike into the premier sneaker in the world Pat ewing could barely get endorsement deals. what was his biggest deal "the wiz"?(owned by the Dolans) what big deals did H2O get or latrell?
> 
> unless there is something in his nike deal that seriously boosts his $ being a winner will be the biggest padder of his pockets , and his best chance of doing that is not in NY.


I've had these questions in my mind to some extent but I think your underestimating the caliber of star LeBron is. If he were to sign with us, he would be instantly the best Knick in history. I also feel your underestimating the recent progress made in endorsing American athletes in other nations. This market was not really available to basketball players but is now because of how much more popular the game has gotten. This market is still in its infancy, however, and has only really been accessed by stars in big market cities e.g. L.A. with Kobe and Houston(mostly because of the Yao connection). Although LeBron is getting some attention in China it pails in comparison to Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady, despite being the best player on team USA. He comes to New York and that likely changes.





Da Grinch said:


> frontloading JJ's contract means a lower starting point for the other guy...i dont see that happening.
> 
> the pistons in the early going had very low contracts ...billups on the MLE , prince on his rookie deal , wallace was still underpaid ...its hard to fit a lot of talent in cap constraints without serious bargains....later is a different story when u can exceed the cap to resign talent.


We'll have approximately $32-$37 million in cap space. We definitely can do that for one star, especially when considering that the second star (Chris Bosh) is always rumored to be involved in a sign and trade deal with the Knicks for David Lee. I agree that the situations between the Knicks and Pistons are not completely identical because of the money these two players will command but you also have to factor in the group of guys we'll still have on the team. They fit the bill of the "capable role players" I was referring to earlier who are still on their rookie deals.





Da Grinch said:


> i agree with everything here , i say if the knicks wind up getting midling star talent (just stars no superstars ) then they failed , they could have kept their midling talent and tried to build on that and if it failed than they still have draft picks ...this plan is a half court shot ...yeah its possible they could do it ...it just isn't likely.


In Donnie Walsh we trust, I guess. His tenure with the Knicks reminds me a lot of Isiah Thomas but put with a different spin. While Isiah's big push was talent, Donnie's push was cap space. Both guys were impatient in executing their plan. Both guys sacrificed draft picks for the prospects of achieving both their aims. Both guys shot the team in the foot doing so. The only difference between the two is that Walsh may have the opportunity to cause more damage if this 2010 thing doesn't work out. At least Isiah had players. The Knicks could end up with D-League caliber talent(if they don't seriously overpay guys of the same caliber we traded for the cap space) AND NO DRAFT PICKS. Its a scary prospect.




Da Grinch said:


> when you are talking about 24 year olds for 32 year olds sure ...but CP3 is still 24 ...you can take a chance on that and no one will 2nd guess you ...if he were 29 maybe not depending on what you are giving up.


I agree with you somewhat after having thought it over but I'm still unsure about Paul's long term viability. Injury-prone and 6ft tall are not the kind of players you bet the farm on....especially when you've already bet the farm, LOL. The situation reminds me a lot of a Damon Stoudamire who use to ball out of control and then just fell off.





Da Grinch said:


> he did but i misspoke it was only for half a season they clashed and scott had him dealt to golden state....i thought byron coached him the season be4 too...i was wrong on that....on espn they mentioned they have since made up about 1-2 weeks ago when their teams matched up.


Their teams matched up? Scott's unemployed.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

20/20 hindsight is always a huge benefit. Here's what I would have done differently.

1.) Trade Eddy Curry, Chris Wilcox and $3 million to the Hornets for Tyson Chandler. They were willing to move Chandler at the deal for Joe Smith and Wilcox. I see no reason why they wouldn't accept this deal with a younger and better player in Curry as opposed to Smith.

2.) I make the proposed Sacramento deal rejected at the deadline but include Portland. Nate Robinson, Jared Jefferies, a future 2nd round pick and cash for Sergio Rodriquez and Kenny Thomas. Blazers get a 2nd round pick and cash. Kings get Robinson and Jefferies.

3.) By virtue of making that deal, the Knicks would've likely wound up with a higher draft pick. Anything higher would have been good enough to draft Steph Curry....so I do it, lol. I also buy the 29th pick from the Lakers and still draft Toney Douglas

4.) Trade Quentin Richardson for Darko Milicic.

*Heading into free agency....*

5.) Sign and trade deal involving David Lee, Chris Duhon and Cuttino Mobley to the Hawks for Josh Smith, Speedy Claxton and Acie Law IV. The Hawks would receive Duhon and Jamal Crawford. The Warriors take back Mobley's contract, which is covered by insurance.

6.) Knicks trade Acie Law IV to Boston for Bill Walker.

*Heading into the trade deadline.....*

7.) I trade for Tracy McGrady and David Anderson in exchange for Larry Hughes and Darko Milicic. Larry Hughes and Carl Landry go to the Kings. Kevin Martin and Darko Milicic to the Rockets.

8.) 3-way trade between the Wolves and Pacers. Knicks get Troy Murphy and Sasha Pavlovic. Wolves get Tyson Chandler. Pacers get David Anderson, Mark Blount and Wilson Chandler.

9.) Trade $3 million cash to the Wizards for JaVale McGee.

10.) Sign Earl Barron.

My team....

*Starters*
Stephen Curry...PG
Tracy McGrady...SG
Danilo Gallinari...SF
Josh Smith...PF
Troy Murphy...C
*Rotation*
Sergio Rodriquez...PG
Toney Douglas...G
Bill Walker...SF
Al Harrington...F
JaVale McGee...C
*Bench*
Speedy Claxton...PG
Sasha Pavlovic...G/F
Kenny Thomas...PF
Earl Barron...C


We make the playoffs this year with this team and possibly could get to the 2nd round depending on what seed we finish with.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

...Sub in Carmelo Anthony [SF], Josh Childress [SG], Jamal Crawford [SG], Linas Kleiza [PF] for Danilo Gallinari [SF], Tracy McGrady [SG], Toney Douglas [G] and Al Harrington [F] and we'd have a ****ing bomb squad.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

urwhatueati8god said:


> I go back to last season when the Kings were willing to deal Kenny Thomas who's contract comes off the books this year for Jared Jeffries and Nate Robinson. That entire trade of Hill/Picks to get rid of Jeffries would have never been needed to saddle somebody else with his contract. You would also have to assume that the Knicks would have been worse last year without Robinson. According to win shares, he would have contributed about three wins from the time of the trade deadline, which would have put the Knicks in a tie with the Warriors and then maybe the Knicks get Stephon Curry instead of Jordan Hill.


I know that I'm beating a dead horse but imagine this Knicks team with Steph Curry heading into the offseason. Not only would we not have sacrificed very much of our cap space in adding an all-star but may have ended up with a decided edge over other teams in the LeBron James sweepstakes. Steph i sthe perfect compliment to LJ and the system we run. He, Danilo Gallinari and a LeBron/Bosh pairing is without a doubt a championship contender, with a supporting cast unparalleled. Its amazing what one minor deal can result in, in the grand scheme of things.


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