# Vince Carter vs Paul Pierce



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Who you wit??


----------



## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

I'm going to go with "The Truth." "Vincanity" isn't even a player. "Vinsanity" is, but not "Vincanity." :razz:


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Lol, 54 views and nothing but a gimmick opinion?? :laugh: These two both came in the league in the '98 lockout season. Now both guys are on contending teams in the East and will likely have a good playoff showdown or two left ahead of them. Who do you guys think is the better player right now? Not more accomplished, but the better player?? Maybe I should throw some statistics you ppl's way.

Career #'s:

*VC:* 23.5 ppg/5.5 rpg/4.3 apg/1.2 spg/0.7 bpg/44.7 FG%/37.6 3pt%/79.6 FT%/37.7 mpg
*PP:* 22.9 ppg/6.3 rpg/3.9 apg/1.6 spg/0.6 bpg/44.3 FG%/36.6 3pt%/79.8 FT%/37.5 mpg

Career Playoff #'s:

*VC:* 25.9 ppg/6.9 rpg/5.2 apg/1.5 spg/0.9 bpg/41.8 FG%/33.2 3pt%/78.0 FT%/42.2 mpg
*PP:* 22.2 ppg/6.8 rpg/4.4 apg/1.4 spg/0.7 bpg/42.2 FG%/32.5 3pt%/81.9 FT%/40.3 mpg

Who you with??


----------



## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Damn I didn't even know VC had a career 4.3 APG average. That's pretty good considering he isn't a top notch ballhandler for his position, and as a matter of fact I remember his first couple of years all he could really do is go left.


----------



## Smithian (Apr 3, 2006)

Even though I loved to remind Net fans of the 2006 playoff series where Wade proved his superiority over Vince Carter, I still like him. I put him just above Paul Pierce.


----------



## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

boy, Pierce has the ring, but wouldnt without KG, VC is really good, ill take a prime Carter just for the dunks alone


----------



## Omega (Apr 11, 2005)

> *Not more accomplished, but the better player?*


carter. now after the next couple seasons, maybe carter in both instances..


----------



## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

Better player is Vince Carter.

Damn Omega I just stared at your sig for a moment and blanked out.


----------



## Vuchato (Jan 14, 2006)

Prolific Scorer said:


> Damn I didn't even know VC had a career 4.3 APG average. That's pretty good considering he isn't a top notch ballhandler for his position, and as a matter of fact I remember his first couple of years all he could really do is go left.


? He's a great ballhandler and fantastic all around playmaker


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Omega said:


> carter. now after the next couple seasons, maybe carter in both instances..


Hopefully. :gopray:


----------



## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Carter. Better playmaker, and more efficient scorer. I think skill wise it's close, but Vince is so much better athletically that it gives him an edge.


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

The Truth. Durability, leadership and D (see Lakers Celtics finals from last year, no one else gave Kobe as much trouble as ol' Paul). All this while being in shape like you're drunk uncle. Vince has a lot going for him and is 10 times the athlete Pierce ever was but The Truth makes up for it in craftiness on both sides of the ball.


----------



## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

I'll go with Carter. VC would also have a ring if he played with KG, and Allen. Plus, when Carter was really good he was amazing to watch. Definition of showtime.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

If you compare last year's numbers of the two players instead of their career seasons they're almost identical. The advantages Pierce have over Carter include defense and being able to play and win alongside douchebags like Kevin Garnett. Carter on the other hand is a former highlight reel player with a better overall offensive game and athleticism. Both are questionable franchise players and are on the wrong side of 30. 

Career it goes to Pierce since he's a Finals MVP and won against the Lakers by defending against none other than Kobe Bryant. Right now I'd go for Pierce because of his experience and hunger to win. Offensively they both give you almost the same production stat-wise but Pierce's defense is better imo.


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Note on Durability; over the years VC has missed over 20 games in 5 seasons to Pierce's 2 seasons of being out over 20 games. Can't discredit the guy for being injured as much as you have to give credit to the players who manage to stay healthy or not miss games due to injuries.


----------



## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Jakain said:


> If you compare last year's numbers of the two players instead of their career seasons they're almost identical. The advantages Pierce have over Carter include defense and being able to play and win alongside douchebags like Kevin Garnett. Carter on the other hand is a former highlight reel player with a better overall offensive game and athleticism. Both are questionable franchise players and are on the wrong side of 30.
> 
> Career it goes to Pierce since he's a Finals MVP and won against the Lakers by defending against none other than Kobe Bryant. Right now I'd go for Pierce because of his experience and hunger to win. Offensively they both give you almost the same production stat-wise but Pierce's defense is better imo.


You are giving credit to Paul Pierce winning _in spite of_ having Kevin Garnett on his team?


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

^Lol, Paul Pierce was never a 'great defender' until he played with Kevin Garnett. Ironic?


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

More stat twisting: Vince may average slighty more points but he's also taking more shot attempts and less free throws than Pierce. Two small things that translate into efficent winning basketball habbits IMO.

I might even go off and say that, Vince is the better individual player all around but Pierce is the guy that'd make your team better.


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> ^Lol, Paul Pierce was never a 'great defender' until he played with Kevin Garnett. Ironic?


 You're right, he was only good. Most "great defenders" have a teammate (or 4) they can thank for doing their job allowing them to hold their man defensively. Vince now has his chance to have a safety net of a true center (not just a great PF like KG), so he should have no problem putting Kobe on lock like Pierce was able to in key sitiatuoins a year ago?


One thing Vince does have over Pierce is the ability to be injured and still get fan votes to start in the All-Star game.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

stevemc said:


> You're right, he was only good. Most "great defenders" have a teammate (or 4) they can thank for doing their job allowing them to hold their man defensively. Vince now has his chance to have a safety net of a true center (not just a great PF like KG), so he should have no problem putting Kobe on lock like Pierce was able to in key sitiatuoins a year ago?
> 
> 
> One thing Vince does have over Pierce is the ability to be injured and still get fan votes to start in the All-Star game.


Where is all of this animosity coming from? Pierce has two very very very good defensive players behind him(Perk & KG). It was not just him locking Kobe out of the lane by himself. Same with when they played Lebron. It's easy to crowd your man when you know you got help behind you. There is nothing which would indicate to me that Pierce is such a better individual defender than a guy like VC tho. Get off your high-horse. Nobody is twisting #'s. All I put forth were the two guys career stats. Those are what we call 'facts'.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Its a wash. They are similar players. VC is the better playmaker/passer, better long range shooter and of course more athletic. Pierce is the better rebounder, better midrange shooter and gets to the line more. Durability is a crappy argument, VC rarely misses games anymore. VC gets a chance to prove his worth on a legit team, so we'll see how the leadership argument stacks up.


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

No animosity but I do believe Pierce to be a better defender overall defender than Vince. Vince's defense is more from being a great athlete while Pierce's is hard work, skill and basketball IQ (ok and some shady old man moves but any decent defender uses em). It is still hard to judge this since Vince isn't on a defensive minded team in the Orlando Magic.

And, I was suggesting I'm twisting the stats not you.


----------



## silverpaw1786 (Mar 11, 2004)

Pierce and it's not even close. He's an all-NBA defender too, while VC is a whole on defense.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

stevemc said:


> No animosity but I do believe Pierce to be a better defender overall defender than Vince. Vince's defense is more from being a great athlete while Pierce's is hard work, skill and basketball IQ (ok and some shady old man moves but any decent defender uses em). *It is still hard to judge this since Vince isn't on a defensive minded team in the Orlando Magic.*
> 
> And, I was suggesting I'm twisting the stats not you.


:wtf:

Orlando was the #1 team in defensive efficiency. SVG is all about defense. Therefore, the Magic bring defense.



> Pierce and it's not even close. He's an all-NBA defender too, *while VC is a whole on defense.*


Since when? VC avgs just as many spg as Pierce and more bpg... Pierce was put into defensive system that makes him look good, hance he is getting so much love. He is nothing more than an avaerage NBA defender. VC is your average NBA defender as well and is about to enter a similar situation as Pierce which will make him look good on that end as well.


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> :wtf:
> 
> Orlando was the #1 team in defensive efficiency. SVG is all about defense. Therefore, the Magic bring defense.


You're right, they did hold teams to a lower shooting % than most of the league during the regular season. (which is always skewed when talking about an East team IMO)
When it comes to the Playoffs they fell to the middle of the pack statistically. Anyway, you say SVG is all about his defense but he insists on taking the defensive disadvantage of starting Lewis at PF in favor of the offensive fire power. I can't say this something a defensive minded team would do. He maybe about his defense in theory but he's either lacking the personnel or not really about his defense as much as you say.


What I did see in the playoffs was an Orlando Magic team that played defense when it had to (and not always up to par either) but was generally up and down the floor taking quick shots from behind the arc. When I say defensive minded, I'm speaking of the San Antonio Spurs like, few possession, grind it out style basketball which really puts the stress on your D to be solid all game. Magic are still in the mindset they are going to bring more offensive fire power and funnel everything to Dwight.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

stevemc said:


> You're right, they did hold teams to a lower shooting % than most of the league during the regular season. (which is always skewed when talking about an East team IMO)
> When it comes to the Playoffs they fell to the middle of the pack statistically. Anyway, you say SVG is all about his defense but he insists on taking the defensive disadvantage of starting Lewis at PF in favor of the offensive fire power. I can't say this something a defensive minded team would do. He maybe about his defense in theory but he's either lacking the personnel or not really about his defense as much as you say.
> 
> 
> What I did see in the playoffs was an Orlando Magic team that played defense when it had to (and not always up to par either) but was generally up and down the floor taking quick shots from behind the arc. When I say defensive minded, I'm speaking of the San Antonio Spurs like, few possession, grind it out style basketball which really puts the stress on your D to be solid all game. Magic are still in the mindset they are going to bring more offensive fire power and funnel everything to Dwight.


Consider the teams they went up against. Out of four rounds, they played two #1 seeds and one #2 seed. No other team came close to that schedule.

You talk about Stan starting Lewis at the 4, but he really had no choice. His plan originally was to start Battie at the 4, but that was before Battie suffered a season ending injury last year so we were forced into it. Instead of bringing Hedo off the bench like we had planned, we moved Hedo to the starting line-up and slid Lewis to the 4. It worked so well that Hedo won MIP, so we stuck with it this season. It's not like you can bench Hedo or Rashard for Tony Battie after the seasons they had... 

And you talk about the Spurs, but the Spurs are the same team that started Matt Bonner at Center, despite having better defensive players like Thomas and Oberto on the roster... Why is that?


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Consider the teams they went up against. Out of four rounds, they played two #1 seeds and one #2 seed. No other team came close to that schedule.


I'll give you that. Finally playing tougher compitition and it leveled the stats. They still played just enough defense to get by. You don't start Hedo & Lewis and call yourself a defensive team IMO. Both are tweeners and not defensive stoppers. Sure they can bother you with their length but they aren't stopping people off the dribble creating foul trouble for Howard. Anyways, we're getting off subject.



> You talk about Stan starting Lewis at the 4, but he really had no choice. His plan originally was to start Battie at the 4, but that was before Battie suffered a season ending injury last year so we were forced into it. Instead of bringing Hedo off the bench like we had planned, we moved Hedo to the starting line-up and slid Lewis to the 4. It worked so well that Hedo won MIP, so we stuck with it this season. It's not like you can bench Hedo or Rashard for Tony Battie after the seasons they had...


I see what you're saying SVG didn't have much choice but they are just a defensive minded team in theory more than anything. If they didn't have Howard they'd be the Suns of a few years back. They need a legit PF (as I've mentioned before somewhere on this board) to make them better suited to match up against more traditional lineups. Then we also might be treated to Vince in a similar situation as Pierce to clear all this up 



> And you talk about the Spurs, but the Spurs are the same team that started Matt Bonner at Center, despite having better defensive players like Thomas and Oberto on the roster... Why is that?


Against most teams Bonner isn't a complete mismatch. He has decent shooting range and plays good team defense.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

stevemc said:


> I'll give you that. Finally playing tougher compitition and it leveled the stats. They still played just enough defense to get by. You don't start Hedo & Lewis and call yourself a defensive team IMO. Both are tweeners and not defensive stoppers. Sure they can bother you with their length but they aren't stopping people off the dribble creating foul trouble for Howard. Anyways, we're getting off subject.


"Finally playing tougher compitition and it leveled the stats."

Wow, you've got to be kidding me. They played 3 'top 3' teams in the league in their playoff run. That's not simply playing a little tougher competition, that's playing against elite competition back-2-back-2-back. Of course their #'s arent gonna be as good as they were in the reg season. 



> I see what you're saying SVG didn't have much choice but they are just a defensive minded team in theory more than anything. If they didn't have Howard they'd be the Suns of a few years back. They need a legit PF (as I've mentioned before somewhere on this board) to make them better suited to match up against more traditional lineups. Then we also might be treated to Vince in a similar situation as Pierce to clear all this up


But they do have Howard, so they're not the Suns of yrs back. I dont get how a defensive minded team only 'in theory', could have the best defensive ratings over an 82 game period. At some point they started _applying_ those theories. I agree that a defensive PF would be nice, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the team as a unit played stingy defense. I admit having Howard helps alot, just like having KG & Perk helps Bostons team defensive concepts alot.



> Against most teams Bonner isn't a complete mismatch. He has decent shooting range and plays good team defense.


Rashard is a much bigger advantage than Bonner is at PF. Being proud of Bonner at PF is no better than being proud of Scalabrine as your starting PF. And im a Gator fan so I like Bonner, but lets keep it real. At least Rashard brings one mismatch to make-up for the other. Bonner isnt an asset on offense or defense...


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Blue Magic said:


> ^Lol, Paul Pierce was never a 'great defender' until he played with Kevin Garnett. Ironic?


Actually, though it's fallen down the memory hole, he was generally regarded as a good defender until the Ainge Rebuilding Error™. Under the Ricktator Boston played full court pressure the whole bloody game (which is why the team finally quit on him in 2000). Jim O'Brien took over and Pierce again played good defense. It was only when Ainge traded away everyone that cared about defense and put the entire offensive load on Pierce that his defense lagged. Once Boston acquired Garnett and good defensive roleplayers, and the offensive load was being shouldered by guys like Garnett & Allen as well, Pierce went back to being highly regarded. 

It's not "ironic", it's logical. Pierce himself pointed this out at the depths of the Rebuilding Error (and got ridiculed here for it), that what separated someone like Bryant from himself was more that Bryant got to play in front of good post defenders (he was speaking of the Shaq-era teams) and help defenders, and that if he got to play in front of Garnett or Duncan he'd have the freedom to take more chances on the defensive end without getting burned. Back in those days the lumbering Perkins was the primary pick & roll defender because Al Jefferson got lost on help defense. The Celtics had basically the worst interior defense in the NBA in those days.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

ehmunro said:


> Actually, though it's fallen down the memory hole, he was generally regarded as a good defender until the Ainge Rebuilding Error™. Under the Ricktator Boston played full court pressure the whole bloody game (which is why the team finally quit on him in 2000). Jim O'Brien took over and Pierce again played good defense. It was only when Ainge traded away everyone that cared about defense and put the entire offensive load on Pierce that his defense lagged. Once Boston acquired Garnett and good defensive roleplayers, and the offensive load was being shouldered by guys like Garnett & Allen as well, Pierce went back to being highly regarded.
> 
> It's not "ironic", it's logical. Pierce himself pointed this out at the depths of the Rebuilding Error (and got ridiculed here for it), that what separated someone like Bryant from himself was more that Bryant got to play in front of good post defenders (he was speaking of the Shaq-era teams) and help defenders, and that if he got to play in front of Garnett or Duncan he'd have the freedom to take more chances on the defensive end without getting burned. Back in those days the lumbering Perkins was the primary pick & roll defender because Al Jefferson got lost on help defense. The Celtics had basically the worst interior defense in the NBA in those days.


I can certainly agree that he is a solid defender. But to say he is some great individual defender is quite simply a reach IMO. He is a pretty good individual and team defender when he wants to be. I wouldnt quite put him up there with the Ron Artest or Gerald Wallace's of the world though. I really dont see how he is such a superior defender to Vince. And this isn't just me defending Vince cause he's on the Magic. I've been saying his defense is overrated since last years finals. People always say his D sets him apart from the Carmelo's and the KD's and everyone else who he is ever compared to. Lol, i'm sorry but I just do not see his defense greatness. At all. No offense to anyone on here, but I just dont see it.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Pimped Out said:


> You are giving credit to Paul Pierce winning _in spite of_ having Kevin Garnett on his team?


Yea thats more hatorade towards KG than anything else - he seems like one of those players who'd be a pain in the *** to work with on and off the court given his unsportsmanlike history.



Blue Magic said:


> ^Lol, Paul Pierce was never a 'great defender' until he played with Kevin Garnett. Ironic?


I'm just assuming thats directed towards me since ya are referring to the above post quoting mine; at that point in the thread I only declared Pierce's defense to be better than VC's - and did not call his defense "great" (nor did anyone else even mention defense at the point in the thread) although it could be argued that way; just wanted to clarify on that. :champagne:


----------



## vinsanity77 (May 1, 2006)

Jakain said:


> If you compare last year's numbers of the two players instead of their career seasons they're almost identical. The advantages Pierce have over Carter include defense and being able to play and *win alongside douchebags like Kevin Garnett*. Carter on the other hand is a former highlight reel player with a better overall offensive game and athleticism. Both are questionable franchise players and are on the wrong side of 30.


I bet all teams had "douchebags like Kevin Garnett" on their team


----------



## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

You young people have very short memories. Pierce took a very mediocre Celtic team to the conference finals where the third best player avg. 10 ppg !!

Carter hasn't taken anyone anywhere at any time...college or pro. And he admitted to sandbagging in Toronto so he is a fraud and he will prove it in Orlando this coming season.


----------



## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

This comparison is about as close as you can get. Their numbers have always been similar their entire careers. I'd give the slight edge to Carter but he's my favorite player so I might be acting like a homer.


----------



## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

Blue Magic said:


> I can certainly agree that he is a solid defender. But to say he is some great individual defender is quite simply a reach IMO. He is a pretty good individual and team defender when he wants to be. I wouldnt quite put him up there with the Ron Artest or Gerald Wallace's of the world though. I really dont see how he is such a superior defender to Vince. And this isn't just me defending Vince cause he's on the Magic. I've been saying his defense is overrated since last years finals. People always say his D sets him apart from the Carmelo's and the KD's and everyone else who he is ever compared to. Lol, i'm sorry but I just do not see his defense greatness. At all. No offense to anyone on here, *but I just dont see it.*


Well you're blind. 

Its not ironic that Pierce could focus more on D when a legitimate team formed around him. Its logical- he has to do less work on offense and on the boards, so he focuses more on defense. He's had that defense in him- contrary to your misconceptions about his defense pre-KG. And EH just backed that up, he told you everything you need to know about Pierce's defense pre-KG. But, you just ignored it, and now your 
argument is all over the place and you don't even know what you're talking about anymore.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

LamarButler said:


> Well you're blind.
> 
> Its not ironic that Pierce could focus more on D when a legitimate team formed around him. Its logical- he has to do less work on offense and on the boards, so he focuses more on defense. He's had that defense in him- contrary to your misconceptions about his defense pre-KG. And EH just backed that up, he told you everything you need to know about Pierce's defense pre-KG. But, you just ignored it, and now your
> argument is all over the place and you don't even know what you're talking about anymore.


Well, Ive seen his defense post KG against Orlando and others and I definitely dont see anything that I would call 'great' about it... I must be blind. I dont see this 'great' defense that sets him apart fundamently from guys like Melo or VC. The main thing is effort, and we've seen guys like Pierce, Melo, & others primary scorers step up the defensive effort when placed in a winning environment. Just like Pierce, Vince can be a good defender he wants to be, Melo can be a good defeder when wants to be. The notion that Pierce's D sets him ahead of some of these guys is a joke. What is he so 'great' at on the defensive end?


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

So they face off head to head a couple times this year, both with a team of support. Who's willing to make signature bets on this?


----------



## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

I'm going with Vince. Better all around. Offensively, Vince can do everything as good or better than Pierce. Pierce's defense is overrated because of the system(not to mention 2 of the best defensive bigs at their position backing him up in KG and Perkins), but he's an avg defender at best. I've even seen Vince play the "superstar defense" and put the clamps down several times himself.


----------



## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

Blue Magic said:


> Well, Ive seen his defense post KG against Orlando and others and I definitely dont see anything that I would call 'great' about it... I must be blind. I dont see this 'great' defense that sets him apart fundamently from guys like Melo or VC. The main thing is effort, and we've seen guys like Pierce, Melo, & others primary scorers step up the defensive effort when placed in a winning environment. Just like Pierce, Vince can be a good defender he wants to be, Melo can be a good defeder when wants to be. The notion that Pierce's D sets him ahead of some of these guys is a joke. *What is he so 'great' at on the defensive end?*


He's got good length, which allows him to give his guy more cushion without conceding an open shot (see how he played LeBron). His lateral quickness is great (he limited penetration from LeBron and Kobe). So is his anticipation- I see none of the guys you mention taking charges like Pierce does. In Boston's championship year, Pierce was first or second in charges taken. If it was Posey who was first, Pierce was a close second. Anticipation is so valuable for a defender, and Pierce has it. It allows him to make the right defensive play all the time.

What's a joke is that he played some of the best defense we've ever seen someone play on LeBron and Kobe, in the same postseason, and you and a lotta other fools consider him an average defender. And you're trying to discount him because he has great defenders on his team. If you did that to everybody, there would be no great defenders in the league in your eyes.

Bowen would be discounted cause he has Duncan. And he had Duncan AND Robinson, plus shot blockers like Nazr Mohammed and Rasho Nesterovic.

Prince would be discounted cause he's had Rasheed and 4 x DPOY Ben Wallace behind him at the same time for half his career. He's had Rasheed his entire career.

Artest would be discounted cause he had Jermaine O'Neal behind him in Indiana. Plus in Houston he has Yao, and a defensive system that had the Rockets as a top defensive team before he came.

Kobe in the championship years would be discounted because he had Shaq, and then Horace Grant for a year.

Give the guy some ****in credit, he played some of the best defense we've seen on the two best players in the world. You can't take that away from him cause every great perimeter defender in this league has had great help defense behind him.


----------



## Omega (Apr 11, 2005)

stevemc said:


> So they face off head to head a couple times this year, both with a team of support. Who's willing to make signature bets on this?


in a heartbeat, who you got? vince for me


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Omega said:


> in a heartbeat, who you got? vince for me


Pierce of course. I bet Paul plays more games than Vince during the 09-10 regular season.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Vince has missed about 15 games in the last 5 years. Thats not a bet you want to make.


----------



## Omega (Apr 11, 2005)

stevemc said:


> Pierce of course. I bet Paul plays more games than Vince during the 09-10 regular season.


ill take that bet. and for the playoffs?


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

HB said:


> Vince has missed about 15 games in the last 5 years. Thats not a bet you want to make.


'Cause he hasn't been in the lane in 5-6 years. Dude is playing like Reggie Miller these days. I figure he's due for another half season looking over his career stats. Especially since he might play hard this season. :bsmile:


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Omega said:


> ill take that bet. and for the playoffs?


I'll make another bet if both are in the playoffs.

We could also go; points, rebounds, fg%, 3point%, assist, steals, blocks combined for head to head matchups.


----------



## 96 draft (Apr 1, 2006)

paul pierce hands down. no hesitation in my mind. give me the tough minded overachiever vs the soft apathetic underachiever every time.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

stevemc said:


> 'Cause he hasn't been in the lane in 5-6 years. Dude is playing like Reggie Miller these days. I figure he's due for another half season looking over his career stats. Especially since he might play hard this season. :bsmile:


Its obvious you havent watched him play in the last 5 years, then again you pretty much admitted to that a few posts back. Its okay, out of sight is out of mind, the guy doesnt miss games anymore period. lol and you do realize Reggie Miller was one of the most durable players in the history of the game, especially with that frail body.


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

HB said:


> Its obvious you havent watched him play in the last 5 years, then again you pretty much admitted to that a few posts back. Its okay, out of sight is out of mind, the guy doesnt miss games anymore period. lol and you do realize Reggie Miller was one of the most durable players in the history of the game, especially with that frail body.


VC used to be on sport center every night for taking it to the rim over someone. Now we're luck if it's once a week. So that's my point of reference really. Hopefully being on a relevant team I can catch a few games.

Reggie was durable but lets not confuse that for being aggressive and mixing it up in the paint. He held his own for being scrawny but lets not go overboard here.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

^Most of the criticism leveled against VC is bull**** at most. Its just from guys who rarely watch the man. Yes he takes a lot of jumpers, but not any more than Kobe, PP, and pretty much every other wing player in the same caliber. The man's 33 for goodness sake, he cant be dunking over everyone. With that said, he mixes his game up, taking it to the hoop, post up, mid range J's and of course long range. He's one of the most complete offensive players in the game. For some reason the media just keep misinforming the public about him. The clowns on PTI the other day said his teammates hate him. Vince is one of the most liked players in the league. I have even heard some say Hedo is a much better play maker. Vince has averaged about 5 assts for the past couple of seasons, he's a career 4.3 apg player. I am just glad the Magic will be on TV a lot more, people will finally get to see the man more.


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

HB said:


> I am just glad the Magic will be on TV a lot more, people will finally get to see the man more.


If you're not right I won't let you hear the end of it.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

LamarButler said:


> He's got good length, which allows him to give his guy more cushion without conceding an open shot (see how he played LeBron). His lateral quickness is great (he limited penetration from LeBron and Kobe). So is his anticipation- I see none of the guys you mention taking charges like Pierce does. In Boston's championship year, Pierce was first or second in charges taken. If it was Posey who was first, Pierce was a close second. Anticipation is so valuable for a defender, and Pierce has it. It allows him to make the right defensive play all the time.
> 
> What's a joke is that he played some of the best defense we've ever seen someone play on LeBron and Kobe, in the same postseason, and you and a lotta other fools consider him an average defender. And you're trying to discount him because he has great defenders on his team. If you did that to everybody, there would be no great defenders in the league in your eyes.
> 
> ...


Ok, and you act like Vince Carter lacks length, lateral quickness, and anticipation? VC is the same age and yet he avgs equal stls and more blks... I dont understand it. How is Pierce soo much greater than your prototypical star wing defensively?? I dont see the vast superiority. I gave him credit for being a solid defender, but im not gonna pretend that his defense elevates him to another platuea when I dont believe it. Paul Pierce didnt shut those guys down by himself bro. Just understand that. The Celtics held Kobe in check for a series, but they've also been lit up by Kobe many a times before the KG era, just like everybody else.


----------



## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

Blue Magic said:


> Ok, and you act like Vince Carter lacks length, lateral quickness, and anticipation? VC is the same age and yet he avgs equal stls and more blks... I dont understand it. How is Pierce soo much greater than your prototypical star wing defensively?? I dont see the vast superiority. I gave him credit for being a solid defender, but im not gonna pretend that his defense elevates him to another platuea when I dont believe it. Paul Pierce didnt shut those guys down by himself bro. Just understand that. The Celtics held Kobe in check for a series, but they've also been lit up by Kobe many a times before the KG era, just like everybody else.


I never said Vince didn't have length, lateral quickness, or anticipation. I only pointed those things out because you asked what makes Pierce a great defender.

Pierce is "soo much greater than your prototypical star wing defensively" because he's defended star wings better than most others have. I guess playing some of the best defense we've seen played on the best 2 players in the league doesn't constitute a great defender to you. 

Nobody in this thread has said Paul Pierce shut those guys down by himself, and nobody does. And even if he didn't do it by himself, he's still a great defender. No defender shuts guys down by himself. Like I already pointed out, every great perimeter defender in this league has guys behind him. Bowen has had Duncan and Robinson, shot blockers like Nesterovic and Mohammed. Prince has had Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace. Artest has had Jermaine O'Neal and Yao Ming. Kobe had Shaq, and then Grant for a season. And by the standards to which you're holding Pierce, there are no good perimeter defenders in this league.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

LamarButler said:


> I never said Vince didn't have length, lateral quickness, or anticipation. I only pointed those things out because you asked what makes Pierce a great defender.
> 
> Pierce is "soo much greater than your prototypical star wing defensively" because he's defended star wings better than most others have. I guess playing some of the best defense we've seen played on the best 2 players in the league doesn't constitute a great defender to you.
> 
> Nobody in this thread has said Paul Pierce shut those guys down by himself, and nobody does. And even if he didn't do it by himself, he's still a great defender. No defender shuts guys down by himself. Like I already pointed out, every great perimeter defender in this league has guys behind him. Bowen has had Duncan and Robinson, shot blockers like Nesterovic and Mohammed. Prince has had Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace. Artest has had Jermaine O'Neal and Yao Ming. Kobe had Shaq, and then Grant for a season. And by the standards to which you're holding Pierce, there are no good perimeter defenders in this league.


I said Pierce was a good defender. Just that his defense isn't so great that I would use it as a reason to put him up on a pedestal like some were trying to do. At least it's not THAT great imo. He's a pretty solid defender tho, but I dont see what seperates him so much from his peers. As opposed to when I watch a guy like Gerald Wallace, for example.


----------



## michelangelo (Apr 29, 2009)

Vinsanity is a freak of nature. As far as his athletic skills are concerned, I would rate him ahead of Kobe, KG and Rainman. And I could only rank him BELOW Shaq and LeBron, the two most dominant players of the past ten years. 

I watched this kid play at UNC and I would just shake my head in wonderment. I literally could not believe how athletic he was, and his highlight reel plays in the NBA have been mind-boggling. No qualifiers added. He is literally a video game character come to life. And not just in exhibitions, but in real game situations. His vertical, his strength, his offensive repertoire are on another level. And he is a TERRIFIC clutch shooter.

Now, about his competitive spirit. Let's just say the competitive fire does not burn that brightly; and when it does, it's merely a flicker rather than a raging inferno. He's like the Tin Man. No heart. 

---

Paul Pierce is great and he's maxed out every ounce of athletic ability out of his body and mind possible. He's got a silky smooth jump shot. And he really gets after it on the defensive end. This is despite his less than impressive vertical. And quite frankly, he doesn't have any speed. 

Ultimately, Paul Pierce has a bigger impact on the game. Why? He cares. VC doesn't. But man, oh man, the potential!


----------



## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

Overall, the stats are almost identical. But Pierce is the better player due to better defense and intangibles. Until we see Vince do a job like Pierce did on LeBron or Kobe, defensive ability is an advantage for Pierce. Pierce is the better clutch player. He's a more scrappy player- one who's done a myriad of things to win a championship. See the jump ball in Game 7 vs Cleveland, see him guarding Kobe in Game 4, finding open teammates in Game 4 and in the closing Game 6. He has more will and heart than Vince- it's no coincidence that Pierce has led numerous playoff comebacks throughout his career and triumphed when the odds were heavily stacked against him.

He led the greatest 4th quarter comeback in playoff history in Game 3 vs the Nets in 2002, was the spark for the greatest comeback in Finals history, and has had other smaller comebacks. There's the one vs Detroit in Game 6 last year, and the one vs Indiana in Game 1 of the 2003 first round. Basically he always plays big when you need it most- 4th quarters, deficits, Game 7's/series closers, improbable situations in general. You can witness what I'm talking about tomorrow.

The old (young) Pierce will be on tomorrow at 5:00 PM EST on ESPN Classic- in Game 1 of the 2003 first round vs Indiana. Its the game where he scored 40 points to lead the 6th seed Celtics over the 2nd seeded Pacers. He scored 21 of his 40 in the 4th quarter, and got the C's the win in spite of a 16 point deficit. He also set the playoff record for most free throws made without a miss.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

LamarButler said:


> Overall, the stats are almost identical. But Pierce is the better player due to better defense and intangibles. Until we see Vince do a job like Pierce did on LeBron or Kobe, defensive ability is an advantage for Pierce. Pierce is the better clutch player. He's a more scrappy player- one who's done a myriad of things to win a championship. See the jump ball in Game 7 vs Cleveland, see him guarding Kobe in Game 4, finding open teammates in Game 4 and in the closing Game 6. He has more will and heart than Vince- it's no coincidence that Pierce has led numerous playoff comebacks throughout his career and triumphed when the odds were heavily stacked against him.
> 
> He led the greatest 4th quarter comeback in playoff history in Game 3 vs the Nets in 2002, was the spark for the greatest comeback in Finals history, and has had other smaller comebacks. There's the one vs Detroit in Game 6 last year, and the one vs Indiana in Game 1 of the 2003 first round. Basically he always plays big when you need it most- 4th quarters, deficits, Game 7's/series closers, improbable situations in general. You can witness what I'm talking about tomorrow.
> 
> The old (young) Pierce will be on tomorrow at 5:00 PM EST on ESPN Classic- in Game 1 of the 2003 first round vs Indiana. Its the game where he scored 40 points to lead the 6th seed Celtics over the 2nd seeded Pacers. He scored 21 of his 40 in the 4th quarter, and got the C's the win in spite of a 16 point deficit. He also set the playoff record for most free throws made without a miss.


You keep saying Pierce is better due to defense. Maybe better defensive effort, but not better defensive skill. Effort is a variable tho. Better intangibles & desire? we'll see. VC has never played with a good man.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Just so you know Lamar, whenever Kobe and Vince go head to head, neither have great games. They always seem to guard themselves pretty intensely. Kobe usually has off nights against the Nets.


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> You keep saying Pierce is better due to defense. Maybe better defensive effort, but not better defensive skill.* Effort is a variable tho. Better intangibles & desire? we'll see. VC has never played with a good man.*


This isn't as much of an issue as with Pierce. Even on terrible teams no one questioned if his heart. Guy has more pride and grit. I'll take that over athletic ability any day. 

We're all saying let's see if being on a good team motivates Vince to be this player everyone builds him up to be. This should be proof enough the guy isn't as good as a basketball player as The Truth IMO.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

stevemc said:


> This isn't as much of an issue as with Pierce. Even on terrible teams no one questioned if his heart. Guy has more pride and grit. I'll take that over athletic ability any day.
> 
> *We're all saying let's see if being on a good team motivates Vince to be this player everyone builds him up to be.* This should be proof enough the guy isn't as good as a basketball player as The Truth IMO.


Not necessarily. The #'s already show us what Vince is capable of. He was putting up good #'s in Jersey and his career #'s are just as good as Pierce's are. Nobody has to build him up to anything because his #'s speak for itself. I'm just saying that Vince has never played with a good big man like Pierce has recently had the opportunity to do. I guess we'll see the results soon enough. They should have their fair share of battles over the next two yrs o pretty good teams, so we'll see who gets it.


----------



## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Vince Carter every time.


----------



## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

Vinsanity.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Found this gem. Head-to-head video evidence from last season. 






And I fail to see this Paul Pierce's alleged 'great'/'elite' level man defense...... Where is it? I see him getting beat and out of position numerous times, and having to rely on the bigs behind him for help. Like I said, he's your average perimeter defender, above average at best. Good, but not great. When you see perimeter guys struggling against Boston, it's a product of their defense system and who it's anchored by more than it is because Paul Pierce is locking anybody down by himself(sry, I just had to do it to 'em. VC exposing him in this video too badly :nonono.


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Found this gem. Head-to-head video evidence from last season.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's only a handful of plays that aren't Vince chunking up something a foot behind the arc. On top of that, this video is going to be a bit bias since it is a Vince highlight reel. Spend some time digging up a highlight video of Pierce if you're looking for examples of his D.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

stevemc said:


> There's only a handful of plays that aren't Vince chunking up something a foot behind the arc. On top of that, this video is going to be a bit bias since it is a Vince highlight reel. Spend some time digging up a highlight video of Pierce if you're looking for examples of his D.


Why dont you find me a clip. Type in "Paul Pierce defense" and it doesnt exist. You're more likely to find 'LeBron James owning Boston Celtics D', than you you to find Pierce shutting anybody down or doing anything noteworthy defensively. Highlight films are all offense. Type in "Paul Pierce block" and you're just as likely to find clips of Pierce getting blocked as you are to find him blocking anybody. This elite defense doesn't exist. Type in "Kobe Bryant vs Boston finals" and you find:






A matchup zone defense catered to eliminate Kobe Bryant. It's not Paul Pierce locking anybody down by himself, it's a freakin matchup zone where they were throwing numerous different bodies at Kobe on every possession. EVERY possession and DIFFERENT bodies being the operative words. No matter how many times you guys try to give all the credit to PP, that's just not the reality. Paul Pierce & elite defense is an oxymoron. Good defense, sure i'll give him that respect. But im not gonna accept defense as a valid reason to Paul Pierce up on a pedestal above other guys on or above his level offensively. I'm just not gonna do it, because quite frankly I dont see anything 'great' it. If you feel differently and believe so strongly that he's soo great... Then dont just give me an opinion, Prove Me Wrong!


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Why dont you find me a clip. Type in "Paul Pierce defense" and it doesnt exist. You're more likely to find 'LeBron James owning Boston Celtics D', than you you to find Pierce shutting anybody down or doing anything noteworthy defensively. Highlight films are all offense. Type in "Paul Pierce block" and you're just as likely to find clips of Pierce getting blocked as you are to find him blocking anybody. This elite defense doesn't exist. Type in "Kobe Bryant vs Boston finals" and you find:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's hardly opinion when it's stating the obvious. With all that said where's the video proof of Vince's D then?

As for the Finals from last year, how can you knock a player for executing his part in a defensive scheme that held one of the greatest scorers in the game in check?


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Lol, Im not trying to put Vince's D up on a pedestal. Your _that_ guy, member? 

As far as the finals, Do you not see the matchup zone Boston was throwing at Kobe!? How can you give just one guy credit for that defensive performance for merely doing a fraction of the work?? You see all those double/triple-teams and help defenders sagging in every play? Different defender's on him in every other frame?? You kidding me??? I dont remeber one signature stop from Paul Pierce or signature defensive play that put a mark on the series. I remember Boston, as a unit, creating a elaborate defensive scheme to eliminate Kobe, and then Pierce just getting all of the credit.


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Lol, Im not trying to put Vince's D up on a pedestal. Your _that_ guy, member?


I'm always that guy. Someone has to do the things others refuse 



> As far as the finals, Do you not see the matchup zone Boston was throwing at Kobe!? How can you give just one guy credit for that defensive performance for merely doing a fraction of the work?? You see all those double/triple-teams and help defenders sagging in every play? Different defender's on him in every other frame?? You kidding me??? I dont remeber one signature stop from Paul Pierce or signature defensive play that put a mark on the series. I remember Boston, as a unit, creating a elaborate defensive scheme to eliminate Kobe, and then Pierce just getting all of the credit.


Find me a team that's beat the Lakers that didn't implement a similar defensive scheme. Pierce was the head of the Kobe stopping beast. Now his star power might have played into actually letting them play ball with out Kobe living at the line. Peitrus didn't get nearly the officals favoritism Uncle Paul did this past year. They also didn't have nearly the scheme Boston was able to run.


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Half Man... Half a Season...


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

LionOfJudah said:


> Half Man... Half a Season...


Lol, not quite. Probably wont even miss a game... He was about to beast tonight if he didn't roll his ankle though.


----------



## LionOfJudah (May 27, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Lol, not quite. Probably wont even miss a game... He was about to beast tonight if he didn't roll his ankle though.


:laugh:

It's cool Paul has him in the thoughness/injury category. We all know this but as I saw Vince roll his ankle I had to say something.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Funny I was just reading this article and came across this paragraph



> Perhaps that is a large part of Carter’s legacy — one that is not a subject for debate, as far as some see it.
> *
> “Unfortunately, people still go on perception and haven’t really followed Vince’s path*,” Nets coach Lawrence Frank said. “Quite frankly, we haven’t exactly been in the national spotlight the last few years. People don’t know what we know about the guy. No matter what happens — and we wish him the best — his legacy as a winner is as secure as it gets.”
> 
> “He’s not really like the other superstars. He’s just a down-to-earth great guy,” Lopez said. “I really enjoyed my time here with him. Obviously things happened the way they happened and he’s in Orlando now but I wouldn’t have minded one bit if he stayed here.”


He'll play Sunday most likely


----------



## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

they are about the same. they were both two of the best wing players a couple of years ago, and they're still two of the best right now. i think pierce is a better finisher though, while carter tends to fold a bit when the pressure gets to him. pierce loves to take the big shots, carter would rather defer.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

c_dog said:


> they are about the same. they were both two of the best wing players a couple of years ago, and they're still two of the best right now. i think pierce is a better finisher though, while carter tends to fold a bit when the pressure gets to him. *pierce loves to take the big shots, carter would rather defer.*


You being a raps follower should know thats not true.


----------



## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

If Vince Carter revealed that he was a Seibu Lions fan, half of this ****ing board would become obsessed with them.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

There probably couldn't be two closer players in the league, from skillset to production, if Pierce shaves his hair or Vince grows his it's going to get worse.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

I'm going to out myself as a C's fan right away, so there's no confusion about where I'm coming from. That being said, I also live in the greater NY area, so I've spent the last several years watching Nets games. The big problem with any debate regarding Vince is that he SHOULD have been so much better than he wound up. Instead of becoming his generations' defining two-guard, however, he wound up being their tin man. Any decent pair of enforcers can turn him into a jumpshooter, and if he isn't "unclutch", he certainly isn't one of the leagues' premier crunch-time guys. It's occasionally a crap shoot regarding whether or not he shows up to play during the regular season, and no, he hasn't shown he can play defense. 

Right now, I'm taking Pierce. He's going to give you all he has and if he's physically capable of playing, he's playing, no question about it. He's got a history of rising to the occasion in crunch time and big games, and while he's not an all-time defender, he's a good defender that can lock up a star as well as anyone over the course of one game or series. He's limited in ways that Vince simply isn't, but makes up for it ways that Vince hasn't shown he can. Also, last year when LeBron and Kobe were asked to name the five swingmen that they most enjoy playing against or offer the biggest challenge(I forget the exact wording, but you get the idea) Pierce was included both times and Vince wasn't, and that counts for something.

Conveniently enough, we'll find out all we need to know about Vince this season barring a catastrophic injury. Lastly, and this bears mentioning, to all the posters complaining that Vince never had a high-quality big man: the season he stopped trying in order to get out of Toronto was Chris Bosh's *second year*. If he was not, in fact, the NBA's tin man and stuck out one more year, he would have been there when Bosh made The Leap the next year. He has nobody to blame for playing on a middle of the road Nets team but himself, he and Bosh could have been two parts of a perfectly good championship core over the past few years. If a guy forces his way away from Chris Bosh to play with Richard Jefferson and past-his-prime Kidd, defenders aren't allowed to say he doesn't have another all-NBA player.


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 2, 2009)

Carter is the better overall player by a bit, but Pierce has much more heart. Call me a Vince Carter hater, but I have a hard time siding with players that have publicly given up on their teams. Granted Carter is a bit better skill wise, there really is nothing Pierce can't do with the exception of dunks. He can score in multiple ways, is a great outside shooter, ball handler, is clutch, passes well, can post up, and is a decent defender.

If I had a choice of choosing one of them in their primes, I would take Pierce, even if he isn't as talented or athletically gifted.


----------



## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

Hahaha.


----------



## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

LamarButler said:


> Hahaha.


Ahh the bump. BTW, love the ****ing Celtics fan's reference to Carter being this generations "tin man". Very apt description.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Look I am going to try and be as objective as I can, Vince's shooting numbers suck, but for you guys that love advanced stats and all that good stuff, you'd realize that his other numbers fall in line with what he is capable of producing. His problem right now is shooting and thats all mental. He's getting the open looks, maybe he is not used to getting so many wide open shots because Dwight draws a lot of attention. Whatever it is, its very fixable. 3 good shooting games in succession, and his FG% is back in the mid 40s. Dont forget Vince hit the go ahead basket to beat the Celts earlier this season. Is a guy putting up 18ppg, 4.7rpg, 3.2apg done for? You tell me. Oh by the way his TS% is 50.2, hardly terrible fwiw.

P.s. how is he a tin man? When he rarely misses games anymore.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Pinball said:


> Ahh the bump. BTW, love the ****ing Celtics fan's reference to Carter being this generations "tin man". Very apt description.


Why? because he has no heart?? We'll see when the time comes, I guess. 

It cant be because injuries, Pierce has missed more games this year...


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

One half a season does not a comparision make. They're still largely interchangeable for me.


----------



## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

I'll preface this by saying that I am a Celtics fan, but watching the C's regularly and seeing enough of Carter (as he's always been in the east) would lead me to believe that this shouldn't be nearly as close as it is.

There's a lot of confusion here about the defensive debates. Blocks and steals are defensive statistics, but that alone does not qualify a player as a good defender. Lets remember that Baron Davis has been top 6 in the league in steals regularly and has all of the physical ability to be a great defender (at a different position), yet isn't. Steals and blocks are more significant indicators of athleticism (where Carter is superior), yet looking at the per 36 averages, Carter is .3 steals behind and .1 blocks ahead.

To continue with defense, I'm not one for advanced stats, but this one drives home the point. Pierce has 42.6 defensive win shares, while Carter has 29.5.

There's also the defensive smell test. Pierce has been lauded for his defense against LeBron and Kobe in the playoffs. Does Carter have a significant defensive performance that people point to? I'm not aware of one.

In my opinion, which I know will be called biased, take away the dunks and there won't be half as many votes for Vince. There's a lot of talk about Carter being better at going to the rim in his prime, but Pierce averages nearly two FTAs more than Carter over their careers. Despite taking more fouls, Pierce has played more games over their respective careers. Pierce also lead the dismal Celtics of the Jim O'Brien era to the playoffs four years in a row, despite having Antoine Walker or Ricky Davis as his second banana and guys like an old Kenny Anderson, Eric Williams, and Raef LaFrentz as the third best player on the team. Meanwhile, the Kidd-Jefferson-Carter teams achieved less than they did before Vince arrived.

There's also the issue of durability. Carter was out regularly when he was at his best, while Pierce was always on the floor. Take way the 06-07 season, where Pierce sat games he could have played because the season was over before it started and the gulf in games played is a bit more than 6 per season.

If you'd like accolades, then consider that Pierce has four All-NBA teams to his credit, while Carter has two. All-star games are the same at seven each. The Finals MVP sets Pierce apart.

If they're playing one on one, I'd could see Carter winning 6 or 7 of ten. Given the opportunity to play with the same set of teammates, I'll take Pierce's team to win 9 of 10.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Ummm there was an article not too long by NBA's John Schumann about how the Nets were the only team that constantly gave Kobe fits, I believe he had his worst statistical games against them in the last 4 or so years. The years he was talking about were the years Vince played on that team, matter of fact you can check the boxscores, Kobe didn't have good shooting nights against the Nets and that was simply because Vince took it upon himself to guard him extremely well. Its no wonder that this year that Vince wasnt on the Nets, Kobe lit the team up.

Vince plays defense when inspired, he's not a great defender per se, but he definitely has his moments.

Of course Pierce' defense on those guys mentioned would get more attention, he's been on a bigger stage the last couple of years.


----------



## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

Blue Magic said:


> Why? because he has no heart?? We'll see when the time comes, I guess.
> 
> It cant be because injuries, Pierce has missed more games this year...


The heart. If I remember correctly, the Tin Man didn't have a heart. Vince is trying right now from what I've seen, though. In the past, he's been known to lay down and die when the going gets tough.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Unless Vince is hurt there really is no excuse for him putting up these numbers the past few games. If he wanted to there isn't a guy on Chi/Ind/Tor that could guard him yet he ends up floating around the perimeter tallying 21 points in those 3 games.

He's just not playing hard right now for whatever reason. Take the ball to the basket and get to the line. With Howard inside occupying opposing big man Vince is suppose to have a much easier time going to the basket than previous years. Him not doing that is just lazy in my opinion.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

*His coach*



> Stan Van Gundy attributed some of the offense’s recent problems to the fact that Carter, Dwight Howard, Rashard Lewis and Jameer Nelson had played just eight regular-season games together as starters entering Friday and were perhaps too conscious of deferring to each other.
> 
> When asked about Carter’s struggles, Van Gundy said it’s possible that Carter is trying too hard to fit in, either by making sure teammates get their shots or by making sure he’s as aggressive as the team needs him to be.
> 
> ...


There's no part about that article that says he isnt playing hard, and I am pretty sure all the bloggers and pundits who watch Magic games would have noticed that by now. He's just not shooting well, has nothing to do with not playing hard, even when he drives to the basket, he's missing easy layups.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Blue Magic said:


> Why? because he has no heart?? We'll see when the time comes, I guess.
> 
> It cant be because injuries, Pierce has missed more games this year...


Because when Toronto hit a rough patch Vince milked an injury and openly quit on the team until they traded him, while when Boston was doing poorly and put together a deal for Pierce, Pierce practically begged management to believe in him as the leader of the C's. Because if the opposing team puts Vince into the hardwood a few times he becomes a jumpshooter, and Pierce was nearly stabbed to death on 9/25/2000 and scored 28 points just over a month later in the C's season opener(for what it's worth, I believe he was the only Celtic to play every game that season). 

I'm not saying Vince doesn't try when he's playing, but he won't destroy himself to win a game. Pierce has no quit in him when it comes to basketball, and that's what sets the two apart.


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Carter is no longer the player he once was. If I were the Magic, let's bench Carter for the last 5 games of the seasons. That's will be about 15 days of rest. Carter can get you 30 a game, it is just that his ankle at this stage cannot play through an whole NBA schedule.

Carter is better when he is healthy, and I think he should be resting for another 5 games. Carter wants a ring and Carter needs to be at his best at least the 30 years old Carter for Magic to be a championship team.


----------



## Booowacai (Jan 28, 2010)

It's pity for VC who oraginal can be better and better but his often injure body!
The first thing make me love the game since 1999 the slamdunk by VC,it's so impressive in my mind.


----------



## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

I think he is simply unhealthy. even when he was lazy, I never saw him scoring 6 points on the regular. now its happening with higher and higher frequency. and he's so slow out there...rest for him would be the best medicine.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Bogg said:


> Because when Toronto hit a rough patch Vince milked an injury and openly quit on the team until they traded him, while when Boston was doing poorly and put together a deal for Pierce, Pierce practically begged management to believe in him as the leader of the C's. Because if the opposing team puts Vince into the hardwood a few times he becomes a jumpshooter, and Pierce was nearly stabbed to death on 9/25/2000 and scored 28 points just over a month later in the C's season opener(for what it's worth, I believe he was the only Celtic to play every game that season).
> 
> I'm not saying Vince doesn't try when he's playing, but he won't destroy himself to win a game. Pierce has no quit in him when it comes to basketball, and that's what sets the two apart.


Wow just wow, in January Vince was out there playing with multiple injuries and it affected his game and you are talking about not destroying himself to win a game?


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Both guys have been playing great of late. Pierce gets the edge due to his defense in my book.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Paul Pierce just made Vince his son right now. Completely dominated him in the series. Outperformed him every night. Thanks VC for proving everyone right!


----------



## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

Can I change my vote


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Yeah at this point I'm going to have to edit that evaluation. They're both very similar until it comes down to any situation that matters. And Pierce does seem to have more pride in man defense.


----------



## g-dog-rice#2 (Jan 29, 2006)

I think a prime Vince Carter might edge a prime Paul Pierce, but as of right now, Paul Pierce is clearly the better player.

As much as it pains me to say it, Pierce clearly out played Vince on the big stage. Paul knows how to draw fouls and manufacture points, and he is a better defender than Vince. You wouldn't think so, since Paul isn't exactly Speedy Gonzalez, but he knows how to use his big body to his advantage.


----------



## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

I dislike Pierce, but I would take him over Vince at any point in their careers.


----------



## swu2208 (Aug 3, 2010)

vince carter all the way


----------



## 27dresses (Nov 5, 2009)

Unquestionably Paul Pierce.

Carter showed his true colors once again in the '10 playoffs.


----------



## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

swu2208 said:


> vince carter all the way


Any reasons? Or should I ask for reasons that are actually related to basketball? Because at this point I'm going to go ahead and assume that there is no tangible reasons in your selection.


----------



## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

he's a superior defender to Vince in the same way he's superior to Vince in most ways, he gives a crap and he doesnt act like a little girl

Vince>>>>>>>>>rated - another athletic mediocre efficiency highvolume scorer more interested in his stats than winning - people go all gaga over him because of the spectacular dunks - show me heart and smart and I'll take it every day over athleticism - maybe if Dwight Howard was as scary as Charles Oakley there's a chance the Magic might get something out of him


----------



## swu2208 (Aug 3, 2010)

Lol, 54 views and nothing but a gimmick opinion?? These two both came in the league in the '98 lockout season. Now both guys are on contending teams in the East and will likely have a good playoff showdown or two left ahead of them. Who do you guys think is the better player right now? Not more accomplished, but the better player?? Maybe I should throw some statistics you ppl's way.


----------



## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Pierce, better now, better over his career

as for now? you want to talk about now? Pierce isnt about to lose his starting position to JJ Redick


----------



## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

swu2208 said:


> Lol, 54 views and nothing but a gimmick opinion?? These two both came in the league in the '98 lockout season. Now both guys are on contending teams in the East and will likely have a good *playoff showdown *or two left ahead of them. Who do you guys think is the better player right now? Not more accomplished, but the better player?? Maybe I should throw some statistics you ppl's way.


They already had one last year. Pierce dominated and Vince chocked. Please, feel free to throw some stats my way because at this point you're embarassing yourself.


----------



## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

RapsLakers said:


> Vinsanity. Paul is too dirty and has a big eggo


Ah yes, the two most important attributes to any great basketball player; athletic integrity and modesty.


----------



## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

I'm genuinely surprised there was renewed debate on this subject this fall. One guy is gearing up for an attempted run at a second Finals MVP while the other is being discussed as having value as an expiring contract.


----------



## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

Pierce > Carter

I'm so embarrassed that I ever thought otherwise.


----------



## AiRBoY (Jan 4, 2011)

going to have to say Vince he has way more exp and Pierce isnt always way handled with the ball always looks for KG under the hoop.


----------



## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

agoo101284 said:


> I'll preface this by saying that I am a Celtics fan, but watching the C's regularly and seeing enough of Carter (as he's always been in the east) would lead me to believe that this shouldn't be nearly as close as it is.
> 
> There's a lot of confusion here about the defensive debates. Blocks and steals are defensive statistics, but that alone does not qualify a player as a good defender. Lets remember that Baron Davis has been top 6 in the league in steals regularly and has all of the physical ability to be a great defender (at a different position), yet isn't. Steals and blocks are more significant indicators of athleticism (where Carter is superior), yet looking at the per 36 averages, Carter is .3 steals behind and .1 blocks ahead.
> 
> ...


I'm a certifiable vince fanboy, but this pretty much nailed it..


----------



## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Phenom Z28 said:


> I'm a certifiable vince fanboy, but this pretty much nailed it..


Since you brought me back from earlier in the thread, I'd add that I wouldn't be surprised to see Pierce take 7 or 8 out of 10 one-on-one games at this point.


----------



## ShaKobe OBryant (Dec 24, 2010)

Paul Pierce. Even before the ring I give the nod to him. He seems more tough mentally, and he's more of a leader. He took a very crappy Celtics team to the conference finals years ago. Vince had more acclaim in the early years, but Pierce stood the test of time and proved that he's a better player to have on any NBA team.


----------



## jaw2929 (Dec 11, 2011)

Carter is NOT the complete player that PP34 is. Pierce is going to go down as a Boston Celtics legend, and has a Championship. Can't say that for Carter.


----------



## jaw2929 (Dec 11, 2011)

Double post.


----------



## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

It should be Vince compared to T-mac these days...not Pierce. That is laughable.


----------

