# JWill IS our PG. Period.



## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

All it took was watching one game to realize why JWill is unquestionably our PG. When he's handling the ball, he makes things happen. His passing is great, his penetration even better and he is the sparkplug this teams needs. He made some expected mistakes, like overeagerness on some of his shots and passes, but he will settle down a bit. His defense looked good for the most part, though he needs to learn how to fight around screens better. Another thing he'll have to get used to is how to finish amongst the trees. He will adjust though, and I'm not concerned. More than anything I'm impressed how much of an impact he is ready to make from day 1.

Watching Crawford has convinced me of one thing - he is a SG. Yes, he has skills to fill in at PG, but he is not the natural passer and ball controller that most teams have at PG. Maybe we ASSUMED he was a PG because he was drafted as one, but that was a product of the system more than his skills. Now this is not to say he didn't impress me. He has filled out even more and is really showing just how good an athlete he is. He shoots with confidence and a nice stroke. He is a SCORER. He has the makings of a very good SG in this league, but he clearly is not deserving of the starting PG role.

A few other notes:

- Dali's 15 footer is looking good. Red Kerr brought up a good point - he's still only 22! Don't write him off just yet.

- Doug Overton sucks. The spot will go to Brunson.

- Curry looks damn confident in the post and he should be an offensive force this year.

- Chandler showed a face up game I didn't know he had.

- The big guys looked good blocking shots and at the FT line.

- Team defense was pretty good overall. Rebounding needs some work.

- Overall, I'm very impressed and let's remember this game was basically w/o ALL of our experienced guys. We will contend against some good teams this year with Jalen, Marcus, Eddie and Donyell.


----------



## BamaBull (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> All it took was watching one game to realize why JWill is unquestionably our PG. When he's handling the ball, he makes things happen. His passing is great, his penetration even better and he is the sparkplug this teams needs. He made some expected mistakes, like overeagerness on some of his shots and passes, but he will settle down a bit. His defense looked good for the most part, though he needs to learn how to fight around screens better. Another thing he'll have to get used to is how to finish amongst the trees. He will adjust though, and I'm not concerned. More than anything I'm impressed how much of an impact he is ready to make from day 1.
> 
> Watching Crawford has convinced me of one thing - he is a SG. Yes, he has skills to fill in at PG, but he is not the natural passer and ball controller that most teams have at PG. Maybe we ASSUMED he was a PG because he was drafted as one, but that was a product of the system more than his skills. Now this is not to say he didn't impress me. He has filled out even more and is really showing just how good an athlete he is. He shoots with confidence and a nice stroke. He is a SCORER. He has the makings of a very good SG in this league, but he clearly is not deserving of the starting PG role.
> ...


I STILL would LOVE to see overton and graves waived to pick up Rod Grizzard who was waived by washington, AND Omar Cook, who was waived by orlando!!:yes:


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Watched the entire game, and I agree with everything u said.
It was good to see the bulls play solid D for 48 mins.

Some of my thoughts from the game:

J-will's speed with the ball is freaky......the guy is right up there with likes of iverson and kidd(on the open floor).

U can clearly notice the extra confidence Curry and Chandler have this year compared to last year.

Crawford still looks kind of hesitant when takin' it to the hole. I'm yet to see him drive and dunk the ball or even have a good clean layup while splitting big bodies.


----------



## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

> Chandler showed a face up game I didn't know he had


Thats good news.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

Another silly thread.

Crawford played well too, and made a number of nice passes to EC, Baxter and others.

JWill finished well and took control at the end which was impressive

Tonight JWill played primarily w/. the starters and looked good. JC got stuck with the scrubs and didn't have as many oppotunities to impress. Last night the roles were reveresed.

Ball movement last night with JC was better
Tonight JWill's fearlessness created a number of nice looks.

The Bulls have two very good young POINT GUARDS.

With the PG initiating the full court press, and thus having to exert the most energy, it's a very good thing that the Bulls have two very good point guards.

When the Bulls have all their players available, both PG's will have plenty of opportunities to generate highlights since the Bulls second five will be really good. 


Especially on back to back nights, it will be to the Bulls advanteg to have a really fresh PG to press and create energy in the starting role or off the bench.

One thing also is certain, having these two in practise competing against one another makes both players better.


I wouldn't trade either one.


----------



## MichaelOFAZ (Jul 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> Another silly thread.
> 
> Crawford played well too, and made a number of nice passes to EC, Baxter and others.
> ...



AMEN! Very well said! Let's also not lose site of the fact that these are just pre-season games. But all things being equal, the future looks bright and I can't wait until we're fully healthy and have Jalen, Donyell, ERob, and Fizer back. When we do, look out East!


----------



## LoaKhoet (Aug 20, 2002)

As fans, we now can be proud of our Bulls. After two preseason games, we probably have suprised and somewhat scared a lot of teams in the East. Game 1, we went against Boston and they had all of their pieces in place while we ddin't have ours. But we did score 104 pts. Without our main veterans, we won against a somewhat "playoff team". 

Personally, I am pencilling us a playoff spot this year.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I haven't seen any games yet, but in reading reports and parsing the box scores, the critical difference I see is that JWill appears to be quite a bit better defender than Crawford. 

Given Cartwright's coaching, that, to me is the primary reason JWill is the man. If not immediately, then sooner rather than later.

It's also one of the reasons I wanted to draft JWill. Much is made of a PG's ability to "control" the game on offense, but I think that in the triangle that's somewhat overrated. I think JWill _can_ do that, but within the triangle it's not ONLY the PG that controls the flow offensively. 

The real difference is on defense. Teams that DO run their offense through the point guard (as opposed to teams that run the triangle and similar offenses) are, by definition, more at risk when they face a team with a great defensive point guard. If JWill can be a guy who disrupts opponents' offenses by clamping down on THEIR PG, then that's just as important as what he does offensively.

In looking at JWill, I think he's got this ability. He's tough, super quick, gets a lot of steals, and knows the fundamentals. Those things are what gives him the edge.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> I haven't seen any games yet, but in reading reports and parsing the box scores, the critical difference I see is that JWill appears to be quite a bit better defender than Crawford.


I wouldn't make this conclusion at all.

If jay's better, it isn't considerable.

Both get knocked off of picks still. Though in both games so far, jamal is fighting through them better. 

Jamal isn't as quick as JWill, but he's still pretty quick. Jamal's length though helps and really is a defensive asset. 

Jamal tonight actually was matching up against the SG when paired with Overton in the back court.

So I think there will be games where Jamal matches up better
and other games where Jay matches up better depending
on the type of pg the other team possesses.


Both seem to want to develop this aspect of their game. Plus again this most definitely is a situation where Craw particularly benefits from having JWill to practice against.


----------



## DickieHurtz (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> Another silly thread.
> 
> 
> ...


Nor would I, if both players' attitudes remains positive regardless of who starts. But I'm far from convinced that, psychologically speaking, Crawford could thrive as a backup.:no:


----------



## Fergus (Oct 2, 2002)

*Ztect is right!*

Go with Ztect. He is on the money. Actually several of the responses to this thread make very good points. I think it comes down to this.......................

The Bulls will end up with 2 decent point gaurds. They will have flexibility and depth. Both guys are going to have to improve, especially on defense, but I think they will. Plus their competition will drive both to improve. Add Jalen Rose as a point forward, to take the pressure off and be ready for some fun. 

I really like the idea of J. Will, Crawford and Rose on the floor at the same time. That give the Bulls three solid ball handlers who can score.


----------



## Chi_Lunatic (Aug 20, 2002)

man, i hope jay and jamal can co-exist cuz i would LOVE to have them both at point.....we would have one of the brightests point tadems in the league..........

i don't really care who starts..........there are some things jay does better than jamal........i always wanted someone on our squad who wasn't afraid to take it straight to the whole....looks like we got our man.......

i ain't gon front, i would rather have jay williams start lol.........

Jay Will
Jalen Rose
Eddie Robinson or Donyell Marshall
Tyson Chandler
Eddy Curry

I think we'll be real good this year........i can't wait til' everyone's back on the floor.......our team is gonna be alot better than folks expect..........we're young and hungry...and very talented.........


----------



## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

Crawford's agent, Aaron Goodwin, said he has been assured by Jerry Krause that Crawford won't lose the position unless legitimately beaten out by Williams. Goodwin said if the position simply were handed to Williams, he would consider asking Krause to trade Crawford. 

Don't look now, Aaron, but the handwriting's on the wall. It's not that JC has played poorly because the things he does well, he has continued to do well, like taking and making long range jumpers.

But JWill has already demonstrated the type of multifaceted game that will force other teams to scheme for him. He shoots, he penetrates and he dishes to the open man. But most importantly, he attacks! Relentlessly! And if his opponent pushes him, he pushes back.

What it all seems to boil down to is not who's more skilled, because both JWill and JC have an abundance of talent. I think the real difference between these two gifted players is attitude (Van Lier's favorite subject). JC's like a passenger on the bus while JWill wants to DRIVE the bus.

Throughout most of last night's 4th quarter against the Raptors the Bulls looked like a team searching for a leader, a go to guy. As their lead was shrinking, minute by minute, no one seemed willing to take over. But with less than two minutes remaining and the Bulls lead cut to three points, the rookie stepped up big time and attacked the Raptor defense. His assault on the Raptors D resulted in two buckets and a putback opportunity for Curry.

Again, this is not a knock against Crawford. But we've needed to add the mindset of an assasin to the Bulls overall persona for several years. As JWill matures, he'll provide that kind of attitude and leadership.


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

I think the Bulls need to make it a top priority to convert Crawford into a two guard. There is really no question that this is going to be Jay's team. 

Crawford's abilities, specifically his shooting and size, should translate well to the two, and if he's a better ballhandler than the average shooting guard, then so much the better. 

Am I missing something? Why is Cartwright fairly adamant about not trying them on the court together, particularly now when he doesn't have to worry about the Jalen Rose factor?


----------



## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

HJ, I think you may have inadvertently contradicted yourself. I think everything in your post is true, but it may be for those reasons that you mentioned that Jamal may be a better fit for our starting lineup. 

Jay's obviously more aggressive, but in the starting unit the offense will primarily run through Jalen, and Jamal's more laid back, take-what-the-defense-gives-you approach might make for a more cohesive unit, where Jalen will be the primary initiator of the offense and feeding the post early to get our bigs going will be a priority. That would seem to create a situation where a more passive pg who is more willing to play within the confines of the offense and defer to others might be more beneficial. 

And this way, Jay would be able to come in with the second unit, where his aggressive, take-control, attacking style could be fully utilized. Regardless, this team has two pretty damn good youngs pg's, and if they both keep the right attitude, should be a huge plus for this team.


----------



## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

1. Jay is REALLY quick. He had this stutter step fake dribble that I could not believe last night, towards the end of the 4th when he took that floater on whoever that huge white Raptor dude was. There aren't very many players in the NBA who can even physically pull off a move with that speed, and even fewer guys that can actually pull it off in a game. That showed me a lot.

2. Crawford's defense wasn't that bad. He doesn't get into the passing lanes like Jay did, but he stuck his man and fought through a few picks. His longer arms are pretty effective...

I think I like Jay as the more exciting player, and his professionalism is visible on the floor, and he's a LOT more aggressive in attacking the hoop. He attempted a pretty nasty dunk, something I haven't seen Crawford do lately...


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> I think the Bulls need to make it a top priority to convert Crawford into a two guard. There is really no question that this is going to be Jay's team.
> 
> Crawford's abilities, specifically his shooting and size, should translate well to the two, and if he's a better ballhandler than the average shooting guard, then so much the better.
> ...


i remember when Cartwright said they wouldn't play together he didn't make it iron clad but he did say 2 or 3 guys would have to be hurt for him to do it.

with that i am assuming that he wants to try things he forsees in game situations during the season. So no JC & J will combos besides he has to make room for other players even with Donyell fizer rose & robinson out hassell & hoilberg is a better alternative than overton & brunson so there probably needs to be 1 more injury before we'll see that combination on the floor.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> i remember when Cartwright said they wouldn't play together he didn't make it iron clad but he did say 2 or 3 guys would have to be hurt for him to do it.
> ...


In pre-season game 1, JWill played a lot with Brunson.
In pre-game season 2, Craw played a lot with Overton,

Thus the Bulls weren't adverse to play a 2 pg offense.

IMO Cartwright's comments were largely psychological. He wants JC & JW fighting for the spot, since the competition makes both players better. However, eventually though I do feel Cartwright will play both players together and in the triangle, they'll both handle the ball.

Regarding this competition, JW's assertitiveness was an asset at the end, though this will be Rose's roll. It's good though to have a second option. However, with Craw, the ball movement in both games has been better. Ball movement and spacing was much better against Boston when JC was with the first unit, thus EC was getting the ball in much better position. Whether this was due to style of play or familiarity with the offense can be debated.

Regardless, both bring something different to the floor. This is a good thing...not a bad thing.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

i never said there were no point guard tandems 

i said the JC and jwill one wont be used unless there are a lot of injuries

i thought the reasons for not putting together come from the rmr in which they played side by side from time to time and both of them essensially chucked everyone on their team when that happened (not that either were particuarly give most of the time in the rmr anyway but in those instances they simply did not pass the ball )

and you cant have that kind of behavior during the season so its best not to practice it now

i didn't see the 1st game but i saw a lot of the 2nd and i agree the ball moved better with JC at the helm the spacing and cohesion was the biggest difference when the jc and williams were running things

the rest of the team seems to work a little better under JC's watch than williams

but like i said on another thread the preseason is a month long i expect both players to work out their on court problems a bit (spacing judgement etc.) before the star of the season


----------



## Nobull1 (Oct 6, 2002)

*Trades*

Is there any doubt in anybodies mind that the bulls are going to have injuries. I am for keeping both Craw and Jay because of this. Relax people and try to enjoy the ride. Thank God i believe we might have a legit NBA team once again.


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Ztect,

I am little surprised at your reply seeing that we were both at the same game and came away with harshly varying responses.

I don't think any one can truly understand what JWILL brings to a game with out seeing him live. There is this electricity that coincides with JWILL having the ball in his hands that I have not felt since Jordan retired (for the second time). I remember the man sitting behind us at the Bulls-Celts game, who was not a Bulls fan, telling his friend that he couldn't leave the game early because JWILL was on the court. He went on to compare JWILL to Jordan in how both lack the ability to have truly bad games. Even if they can't find their shots they alter the complexion of the game--grabbing rebounds, playing tough defense, pushing the ball down the court, and threading passes. I couldn't agree with the Celts-fan more.

I believe the backbone of the six championships was this killer instact, a refusal to loose, that Jordan brought to the team every time he stepped on the court. Even in his aged state he brings this force of will to Washington...though he is no longer a dead-eye from the filed he makes players around him better. JWILL brings this kind of energy.

This being said, I am by no means let down by Craw's performance this season-- I don't understand BC's stance on Crawford playing the 2. He has showcased better defense, and a more controlled offense this season. While he may be too- light to effectively guard big 2's I see no reason to close off this option.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Being at the Celtic/Bulls game with C.C.C.P. on Thursday (never go to Mohegan Sun for ANY reason, by the way), I have to agree with him. In this game, the best player on the court for the Bulls was Curry, but the best guard play came from Williams, who just looks like a million bucks out there IMHO. As us jazz musicians say, he's just got a vibe, and he looks and acts like a winner. I want the ball in his hands to make decisions late in a game. His shot was not falling, but his all around game was intact: steals, passing, energy, leadership, tight defense. I just love watching him play. 

That being said, the third best performance came from Craw, who looked good out there. Although he supposedly added weight in the offseason again, he's still looks like Kate Moss' younger sister. I really appreciated what he had to offer on the court. He played a controlled game, shot well, and even had a very nice steal. I still like the possibility of having JWill, JCraw, JRose, Chandler, and Curry on the court at the same time, and I don't really care which J plays "point guard."


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> I don't think any one can truly understand what JWILL brings to a game with out seeing him live. There is this electricity that coincides with JWILL having the ball in his hands that I have not felt since Jordan retired (for the second time). I remember the man sitting behind us at the Bulls-Celts game, who was not a Bulls fan, telling his friend that he couldn't leave the game early because JWILL was on the court. He went on to compare JWILL to Jordan in how both lack the ability to have truly bad games.


Actually the Celtic fans behind me were saying that JWill was overrrated.

But then JWill made a couple nice back to back plays including a steal that led to an uncontested basket and this seemed to shut those fans up somewhat.

Now during the Celtics game, JWill played mainly with the likes of Blount, Graves, Brunson, and Dali. JWill did provide a lot of energy. But his passes to Dali were fumbled, and with this line-up on the floor, the Celtics got a lead in the 2nd quarter and the final lead in the 4th quarter.

During the first quarter, ball movement was much better with Craw, Hassel, Hoiberg, Chandler and Curry than it was in the second game when JWill played with these four..

This doesn't take anything away from JWill's energy. 

The 2nd pg whether it's JW or JC will be much more successful when that pg is playing with a second unit of Marshall, Hassel, Fizer, and Blount (or Dali). 

So as to being at the same game, people tend to see what they want to see to reinforce whatever their biases are.

Actually the person who impressed me the most with his energy, and hustle in the Celtics/Bulls game was Hoiberg. He plays 100% every minute he's on the floor.


----------



## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

*Second unit.....*

It's been said before, but *ztect's!* post just reminded me of what we have to look forward to. A second unit of Jay (or Craw), Hassell, Marshall (or ERob), Fizer, and Blount will be impossible to slow down! Other teams will either have to shorten their rotations (and tire quicker) or get punked every time their second unit is on the floor. That second unit doesn't even include Lonny, Freddy, or Dali..... one of whom will have to live on IR.

Go Bulls!

:rbanana: :wbanana: :rbanana: :wbanana:


----------



## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rosenthall</b>!
> HJ, I think you may have inadvertently contradicted yourself. I think everything in your post is true, but it may be for those reasons that you mentioned that Jamal may be a better fit for our starting lineup.
> 
> Jay's obviously more aggressive, but in the starting unit the offense will primarily run through Jalen, and Jamal's more laid back, take-what-the-defense-gives-you approach might make for a more cohesive unit, where Jalen will be the primary initiator of the offense and feeding the post early to get our bigs going will be a priority. That would seem to create a situation where a more passive pg who is more willing to play within the confines of the offense and defer to others might be more beneficial.
> ...


How Jalen and Jay work together remains to be seen. I suspect Krause and Rose had a number of conversations before the draft and the possibility of drafting Williams was certainly discussed. I've had no indication at all that Rose had any reservations about the Bulls adding a player with a command presence like Jay's. I can guarrantee you that Williams will show Jalen all the respect he deserves and has earned over the years.

As a basketball player, I'd describe Jalen Rose as a human chameleon. He has an uncanny ability to become whatever the team needs to be successful. Need scoring? Jalen can supply that. Need a ball distibutor? He's that, too. Cartwright even admitted he can be a pretty damn good defender if he puts his mind to it.

I don't think there's any dispute right now that Rose is the leader of this team. As assertive as Jay is, he's smart enough to know he's a rookie and its in the best interest of the team for him to defer to Jalen's leadership skills. But that doesn't mean that Jay won't attack defenses or take clutch shots when he needs to.

I really don't see these two players being at odds with one another. If anything, as time passes and Jay establishes himself I think you'll see the formation of a mutual admiration society between Jay and Jalen.


----------



## faust (Jun 7, 2002)

Rose said that the Bulls needed more vets. Krause has delivered with a vet at every position except pg. It is because of this that I believe that Rose agreed with Krause on selecting JWil.

One thing I notice was that when Toonto made it's run in the 4th, they did it by pressuring the gaurds, mainly Crawford. In all fairness, Crawford's SG was not very good. When they did it against JWil, JWil made them pay. This does not mean that JWil is better than Crawford, it just means that we have two good gaurds who are better at different things. 

JWil seems to get the Bulls into their offense faster right now. Crawford is going to see this and I expect him to eventually do the same thing. It should be a fun year. :cbanana:


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

My understanding of the situation with Crawford at the 2 is that He will not get that spot mainly because he did not bulk up over this summer, and is too small to defend the 2 physically. That is what I read over at ESPN. And Krause was none too pleased....especially since JC spent little time at the berto center working out with The rest of the team.


----------



## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

<b>..."J-will's speed with the ball is freaky......the guy is right up there with likes of iverson and kidd(on the open floor)."</b>

I agree, he is extremely quick, but the down side of that is he doesn't know what to do with his speed & the ball at this point(too many turnovers). I thought he was out of control quite a bit, which seemed closer to Iverson than to Kidd. I do like the way he does try to penetrate and dish, though.

As for Curry, he was a pleasant surprise to me when watching him. He seemed to use his body mass in the paint so much more effectively than last season. But he doesn't go after the rebound enough to suit me, which Chandler does and ferociously, too!

Crawford may well turn out to be a sg, but how tall is he?

Jalen (who has a high BBall IQ) and Marshall will be the needed veterans to make this team highly competitive this season!


----------



## Salvaged Ship (Jul 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Krakken</b>!
> My understanding of the situation with Crawford at the 2 is that He will not get that spot mainly because he did not bulk up over this summer, and is too small to defend the 2 physically. That is what I read over at ESPN. And Krause was none too pleased....especially since JC spent little time at the berto center working out with The rest of the team.


In all fairness to Jamal, it is hard not to laugh if a man in Krause's condition is all over you for not working out enough.

Krause should take some of his own advice.


----------



## ScottVdub (Jul 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>sinkingship</b>!
> 
> 
> In all fairness to Jamal, it is hard not to laugh if a man in Krause's condition is all over you for not working out enough.
> ...



Krause is a general manager, he is not a basketball player he does not need to work out. What do we all do when we watch basketball, we sit our butts down in front of the tv and watch, well thats his job. To watch alot of basketball and figure out who would be good for the team. You can be an observer while eating. I mean the title GM means General Manager, how many of your work managers actually do work for your job? No, they just tell you what to do to make sure everything runs smoothly, thats what krause is doing here. Hes trying to get his players doing the best of their abilities so that they earn their paychecks and to make the team more competative. Jerry Krauses weight has nothing to do with whether Jamal Crawford gets in better shape or not because Jerry Krause does not get paid to be a professional athlete. Ill admit, he looks like he could be Jaba The Huts older brother but so what.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>faust</b>!
> Rose said that the Bulls needed more vets. Krause has delivered with a vet at every position except pg. It is because of this that I believe that Rose agreed with Krause on selecting JWil.
> 
> One thing I notice was that when Toonto made it's run in the 4th, they did it by pressuring the gaurds, mainly Crawford. In all fairness, Crawford's SG was not very good. When they did it against JWil, JWil made them pay. This does not mean that JWil is better than Crawford, it just means that we have two good gaurds who are better at different things.
> ...


did you notice the bulls were behind by 3 before crawford entered the game in the 3rd period 

i dont think it was that much of a run seeing as crawford left the game when the bulls had an 8 point lead and their highest lead for the game was 10


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>sinkingship</b>!
> 
> 
> In all fairness to Jamal, it is hard not to laugh if a man in Krause's condition is all over you for not working out enough.
> ...


Give me a break.

I'm willing to accept some of the excuses people throw out there on Jamal's behalf, but the failure of his GM to set a physical example for him is not one of them.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Krakken</b>!
> My understanding of the situation with Crawford at the 2 is that He will not get that spot mainly because he did not bulk up over this summer, and is too small to defend the 2 physically. That is what I read over at ESPN. And Krause was none too pleased....especially since JC spent little time at the berto center working out with The rest of the team.



Do you really believe everything written on ESPN?
Chadd Ford especially is a rumor mongerer.

Crawford worked out the entire summer...just not at the Berto Center after the summer league prior to training camp.

According to the players I talked to at the Mohegan Sun, most of them de-emphasize lifting during the late summer. Most of the lifting emphasis is after the season's over.

For example, Fizer said he bulked up to 285, but had trimmed down to 270.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who cares about Chad Ford? There are plenty of direct quotes from Cartwright and Krause that state this is NOT a rumor.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> Who cares about Chad Ford? There are plenty of direct quotes from Cartwright and Krause that state this is NOT a rumor.


Not exactly. While I agree that Craw isn't big enough to guard the "big" 2's (and said this all along esp. prior to the draft), the quotes I've read from BC and JK simply state that this is the case.

No quotes I've read or heard specifically have said anything about Krause being mad that Craw didn't "bulk up". Krause was upset that Craw worked out at Hoops and in Seattle rather than at the Berto Center, but again nothing I've read or heard said anything about JK being upset that Craw didn't "bulk up" to guard the 2's. Realistically there is only so much weight someone can put on in a month anyway esp. someone with Craw's physique.

Matter of fact an article today in the Sun Times, basically reasserts this just mentioned point that Craw is a PG and isn't big enough to guard the "big" 2's like Pierce, McGrady, Bryant and Carter.

So it's a matter of particulars here.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> Not exactly. While I agree that Craw isn't big enough to guard the "big" 2's (and said this all along esp. prior to the draft), the quotes I've read from BC and JK simply state that this is the case.
> ...


But I see no reason (except the fact that I don't want to see our 3rd point guard on the floor ever, whoever he is) that Jamal and Jay couldn't play in the backcourt together against the guard tandums from certain teams: Houston (Mobley and Francis), Philly (Iverson and Snow), New Orleans (Welsey and Baron), Atlanta (when the play Dickau and Terry), Sacramento (when they play Bibby and Jackson together, which they will sometimes when Bibby gets healthy), Dallas (when they play Nash and Van Exel togheter), etc. There are many teams that sometimes have short but talented guard lineups on the floor, and we really could play this lineup against them, if the coaching staff saw a future with these two on the floor together.


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

For the record Ztect, try not to be so insulting in the future. Not once did I say that I BELIEVED anything, much less EVERYTHING ESPN said. It just so happens that it is the only PLAUSIBLE (read: Believable) explanation that has been given so far for JK and BC's statements. Whether he is mad about JC not working out at Berto, is a separate issue from him not bulking up. That he didn't bulk up would only COMPOUND the deck against Jcraw in Krauses eyes. He came back with very little proof that he didi anything but play pick up games with MJ over the summer. As a GM, that would irk me too.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Krakken</b>!
> For the record Ztect, try not to be so insulting in the future. Not once did I say that I BELIEVED anything, much less EVERYTHING ESPN said. It just so happens that it is the only PLAUSIBLE (read: Believable) explanation that has been given so far for JK and BC's statements. Whether he is mad about JC not working out at Berto, is a separate issue from him not bulking up. That he didn't bulk up would only COMPOUND the deck against Jcraw in Krauses eyes. He came back with very little proof that he didi anything but play pick up games with MJ over the summer. As a GM, that would irk me too.


Get real, no one expected Crawford to put on another 12 lbs of MUSCLE in the month he was away. That's the minimum amount he'd have to put on to be strong enough. 

The only way someone can do that is if they're doing very little cardio, and are taking steroids. 

As for playing pick-up games with MJ, maybe you should think and therefore not put yourself in a position to be contradicted (which you construe as being insulting).

All the Bulls players prefered playing at Hoops, becuase there were always players at Hoops for games, whereas at the Berto Center, players weren't always there at the same time making games harder to organize.

Furthermore at Hoops, games were organized with referees. Plus players who played there include Juwan howard, Walker, Rose as well as Jordan and others. Even Lebron James has played at these "pick-up" games. 

In addition, Craw played with a number of the Sonic players in Seattle. Thus any conclusion that Craw "did anything except play pick up games" is simply your (biased?) interpretation.

Getting on Craw , a twenty one yr old kid, for spending a month with his family (and child) is simply ridiculus.

All these reports in the paper, or online, IMO are trying to make events more sensational to make the story more appealing.

Read the Sun Times article today...now that's something worth reading....

In regards to DMD comments, that Sun Times article states exactly what DMD wrote, there are small guard combos that Chicago can play JW & JC against. In that article, JC and JW also would like to play together. 

"We could definitely play together, and I'm sure that will happen some time or another,'' said Crawford....

"I'd love to play with Jamal because he's such a good player and I believe it could work,'' Williams said.


http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bullnt13.html


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Get real, no one expected Crawford to put on another 12 lbs of MUSCLE in the month he was away. That's the minimum amount he'd have to put on to be strong enough


Says who? You? When did YOU become an expert on the NBA body?? 



> As for playing pick-up games with MJ, maybe you should think and therefore not put yourself in a position to be contradicted (which you construe as being insulting).


Now your true colors show. I did no such thing. What I did "take", as insulting was the manner in which you incinuated that I "believe EVERYTHING I read. Would you like me to quote what you said? I can do that, but I really wouldn't like it if this turned ugly.



> All the Bulls players prefered playing at Hoops, becuase there were always players at Hoops for games, whereas at the Berto Center, players weren't always there at the same time making games harder to organize.


[basically here, ztect said that NBA players should listen to their boss if they are getting paid millions. Please read the vulgarity and harrassment guidelines for more information as to why this post has been edited. Thanks. -Showtyme] 



> Furthermore at Hoops, games were organized with referees. Plus players who played there include Juwan howard, Walker, Rose as well as Jordan and others. Even Lebron James has played at these "pick-up" games.


YOur point? Or are you trying to suggest, that just because "everybody's doing it", that I (if I were Jamal crawford, should be alowed to do it too? No wonder this country is so screwed up. Sheep.



> In addition, Craw played with a number of the Sonic players in Seattle. Thus any conclusion that Craw "did anything except play pick up games" is simply your (biased?) interpretation.


When arguing with me it is a good idea to be more precise. What conclusion do you think I drew? Read the quote again, and pay attention to the bold this time:



> He came back with *very little proof* that he did anything but play pick up games with MJ over the summer.


2 things: 

a) Id like nothing more than to see Crawford stay in CHicago and START at the 2 some day (you can shed the "bias" nonsense).

b) If you are NOT gonna take the advice of your BOSS, then you had better have *proof* that your method of "whatever" is actually at least as effective as what your boss prescribed for you. Crawford provided little. And as a result, his BOSS was noticably upset (it isn't all that unreasonable by the way). I DREW NO CONCLUSIONS FROM that except that Crawford did not provide the proof. Now he has had a good camp, but that is not necessarily related to the HOOPS gym at all, and could be just as much a measure of his growth over the past 12 months...not his off-season work ethic. Nevertheless, there is no concrete proof, suggesting that he hit the weights, as his BOSS asked him to do, IN CHICAGO.




> Getting on Craw , a twenty one yr old kid, for spending a month with his family (and child) is simply ridiculus.


Try again. THis argument has already been used. Please, he had plenty of time betweeen the Playoffs, (which they didn't make), and the draft to see his family. Hell he makes 7 figures a year, why couldnt he fly his family out to him (as someone who only makes five figures and has been in a similar situation, I know for a fact that it isn't all that unreasonable)?? And about that 7 figures, a garuanteed contract means you have certain obligations to fulfill, meaning that some preparations are involved. And if the other party involved in the contract (you know, the people who actually stand to lose money if you don't pan out??), don't see you living up to your end of the deal, then they have a RIGHT to be disturebed or even a little upset.



> All these reports in the paper, or online, IMO are trying to make events more sensational to make the story more appealing.
> 
> Read the Sun Times article today...now that's something worth reading....


Would the above two statements qualify as a contradiction? Didn't you get on me about "contradictions" earlier?



> In regards to DMD comments, that Sun Times article states exactly what DMD wrote, there are small guard combos that Chicago can play JW & JC against. In that article, JC and JW also would like to play together.
> 
> "We could definitely play together, and I'm sure that will happen some time or another,'' said Crawford....
> 
> "I'd love to play with Jamal because he's such a good player and I believe it could work,'' Williams said.


I read it long before I read your reply.

One.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

Boy, maybe you should take a sedative.

I'll briefly note, Craw wasn't under any obligation to be at the Berto Center. I read Krause say so himself.

Craw, as a 3rd yr player wasn't even obligated to play in the Rocky Mountain League.

As for working out, I was a national caliber player in my sport
and trained year round. I worked out 5 days in the weight room.
At 154 I benched 335, so I know a little about building mass.

You obviously don't. Actually, you obviously have absolutely no clue.

As for "proof", Craw having a great camp (according to BC)
is proof enough. he came to camp in shape and ready to play.

You obviously like to blow things out of proportion as you've done
with your diatribes, and as you've done with putting forth arguments based upon your interpretations of what you read. 

'nuff said.


----------



## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

The reason why Craw and JWill will never play along side one another is because of defensive reasons. At least this can be said with confidence for the first half of the season. Even if a team has a point - point tandem, Bill C will take advantage of that, by putting someone bigger on that second guard. That's classic match-up basketball. And so what if that second guard is fast, he can find out what Curry and Chandler have going on in the paint. Hassell will shut down any small 2 they bring-out, and he'll post the heck out of them too. JWill and JC also won't get practice time together which will weaken chemistry between the two if they were brought together in real games. BC know's what he's doing here. It's still too early to see how his call pans out, but I think making JWill and JC fight for the starting job is the right call. And on top of that, keeping JC out of the two spot is also the right call. At least for this season.

P.S. On a side note, the suggestion that JC take steroids while morally represhensable, would make JC one heck of a player. I can only image someone of his skill with a bulked up body provided by that kind of a stuff taking just about anyone to the whole. I"m glad that he doesn't, but if he did, a scary picture. At least, a scarier one.


----------



## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> did you notice the bulls were behind by 3 before crawford entered the game in the 3rd period


Did you also notice that the fellow in Section 105 seat 32 had just taken a bite of his 2nd hot dog?

Here's another statement that makes me laugh:

Did anyone notice that the the Bulls were 4-2 with Jamal starting?

Travis Best was the 4th quarter hero in those wins, while Jamal watched from the bench (except for the Boston game).


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> As for working out, I was a national caliber player in my sport
> and trained year round. I worked out 5 days in the weight room.
> At 154 I benched 335, so I know a little about building mass.
> 
> ...


More personal stuff. I guess that is what people resort to when they run out of logic. Go figure, but lets look at the the tape: Not once did I call you out on what you may or may not know. I asked a series of questions, most of which strayed from attacking your intelligence.

For the record, you have no idea WHAT i know, yet you have no problem "forming a hypothesis", on it and a weak one at that. Lets clear up a few myths.

--I graduated 4th in my class, with a 1480 SAT score. I am no dummy.
--I am currently attending a highly respected med school. I know all about Sterols and their prospective affects on the Human body....again, I am no dummy.
--While I was gaining all of these *academic credentials*, I played *college basketball*, not some other sport, but college basketball, and I hit the weight room "only" 4 days a week. Do you know that in one summer I gained 30 pounds? no steroids either. 



> You obviously don't. Actually, you obviously have absolutely no clue.


Yeah, Obviously. 



> You obviously like to blow things out of proportion as you've done
> with your diatribes, and as you've done with putting forth arguments based upon your interpretations of what you read.


Hey genius, tell me something: Does any of the reading material in this entire thread qualify as ANYTHING, *ANYTHING* other a persons interpretation of things?? Very little of what has been said here is fact, on either side of this argument. Again, what is your point???


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

You know, after reading my last post (and the one that facilitated its appearance), I have decided that continuing on the current path is not only semi-destructive for the thread, but has nothing to do with the original content of the thread at all.

My apologies to whoever read those posts, and though I will not take them down, I will not continue to post in that part of this discussison.

Back on topic.


----------



## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Um. Thanks? Let's seriously try to avoid credibility attacks... some people are qualified to say whatever and others might not be, but this is the Internet and none of us will ever really know, so... -Showtyme


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Electric Slim</b>!
> 
> 
> Did you also notice that the fellow in Section 105 seat 32 had just taken a bite of his 2nd hot dog?
> ...


whats your point slick that you have a memory ?

it cant be anything b-ball related 

oh wait this is just another attempt to slam a current bull for no other reason then he is competition with jay williams for the point guard spot 


this makes me laugh


----------



## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

I'm just sick of people using that stat Grinchy. No personal offense.

I have those games on tape (so who needs memory?), and Jamal was barely a factor. 

His only 4th quarter heroics came in the Celtics game, he hit some important threes.

But giving Jamal the credit for the 4-2 finish is preposterous.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

if i remember correctly as this stats been thrown around on this board enough for it to have sunken in to me 

JC shot like 61.5 % from 3pts range in those games scoring 12 pts over 25 min.

now maybe he wasn't the guy in the 4th as best got most of those min. 

but you have to admit him having good games helped (especially seeing as they won none of those games by more than 5 points)

sometimes playing well enough to be in position to win is enough


----------



## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

Of course Grinch, but i don't think jamal's starting had anything to do with it, unless the point of Jamal's staring was for Best to be fresher in the 4th. 

Jamal has yet to play a breakout game, I really don't understand the hype on this guy.


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Jamal has yet to play a breakout game, I really don't understand the hype on this guy.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*the hype*

is based on his talent level which is immense

the guy has the head for the game height speed quickness handle and a shot all of which would have to be rated very good to great for a point guard

you have to remember he entered the nba with 17 games of college, a year of high school(2nd team all american) and an aau season 

thats it thats all of the organized ball he has had prior to becoming a bull 

no guard has been drafted higher than him with less experiece 

and to me the best thing about him despite the lack of experience he had a pro-style game coming into the league no horrible playground or college habits he needed to be broken of & his work habits which are very good

he came into the league vey raw with his flaws being his extreme lack of bulk (which has been fixed ) and his knowledge of the game which has grown to the point that he rarely makes mental errors 

the draft he was picked in happened 2 years ago and all of the high picks had hype around them most of whom have shown they were not worthy but JC has actually added to the hype due to the things he does in the off-season 

people know he can play now and are waiting to see it


----------



## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: the hype*



> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> is based on his talent level which is immense
> 
> and to me the best thing about him despite the lack of experience he had a pro-style game coming into the league no horrible playground or college habits he needed to be broken of & his work habits which are very good


Uhh, he was suspended for most of his Freshmen year.



> he came into the league vey raw with his flaws being his extreme lack of bulk (which has been fixed )


?



> and his knowledge of the game which has grown to the point that he rarely makes mental errors


Gimmee a break!?!?!




> but JC has actually added to the hype due to the things he does in the off-season


Like watching Mariner games?



> people know he can play now and are waiting to see it


Put me down for the latter. Grinch I want to agree with you but your points are purely speculated.

If you ask me both guards are tied right now. I think Jamal's TO ratio has been impressive, but I'm still waiting for a 10+ assist game from him.

Jay on the other hand I'm still waiting for him to break 6! :upset: 

What I want from Jamal is more agression on the offensive end. He doesn't seem as fearless as Jay.

I really don't care who starts, just as long as both are good! I'm just sick of people riding on Jamal's jock. I don't care about what Jordan, Terry and Baron say, I want to see for myself.

So far I haven't seen doo-doo. (same with Jay)


----------

