# McGraw: Does a Bulls trade for Grizzlies’ Gasol really make sense?



## Bulldozer (Jul 11, 2006)

*Does a Bulls trade for Grizzlies’ Gasol really make sense?*


> By Mike McGraw
> Chicago Bulls
> Posted Friday, February 16, 2007
> 
> ...


If the Bulls _had_ to give up somebody, I would pick the player with the least upside...Kirk Hinrich. Its reached the point where Gordon should increase his minutes (36-40+) and those minutes should come from the point, sharing time with Duhon. When Du is on the bench and Thabo comes in as the 2, Gordon becomes that scoring PG. I really don't understand the boner people (and Bulls org.) have for Hinrich. He's good, but the Bulls can do without him. However, if somehow the Bulls manage to get Gasol without giving up any of the "core", I believe Paxon should become GM of the decade. From my end, all will be forgiven for his terrible trades in the past.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

Bulldozer said:


> *Does a Bulls trade for Grizzlies’ Gasol really make sense?*
> 
> 
> If the Bulls _had_ to give up somebody, I would pick the player with the least upside...Kirk Hinrich. Its reached the point where Gordon should increase his minutes (36-40+) and those minutes should come from the point, sharing time with Duhon. When Du is on the bench and Thabo comes in as the 2, Gordon becomes that scoring PG. I really don't understand the boner people (and Bulls org.) have for Hinrich. He's good, but the Bulls can do without him. However, if somehow the Bulls manage to get Gasol without giving up any of the "core", I believe Paxon should become GM of the decade. From my end, all will be forgiven for his terrible trades in the past.


yeah make gordan the full time pg. i'd love to see how many palming violations he'd get called for. or how many cross court passes to the defender he can throw after a hard double team.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

> He could have easily acquired 6-10 Melvin Ely from Charlotte this week but chose to hang on to all of the Bulls’ expiring contracts.


This is the part that IRKS me. We could of moved Sweetney + a 2nd rounder for Ely. Not a major loss but it's still a move we COULD have made to improve our frontcourt.

a Gordon/Duhon/Sefolosha backcourt IMO, could survive without Kirk but honestly, his defensive skill & ability to go on HOT streaks are valuable to us. Don't know if they're more valuable than what Gasol brings though. But it's just as hard to find a GOOD, young PG than it is to find a GOOD, young scoring PF or C. We did very well without Kirk earlier on this year but I'd rather NOT move him.

*TT, NY's Pick, Thabo & P.J. for Gasol.*

Why I'd do it? :

NY's pick is currently 10th and unless there's a major injury to Eddy Curry, it'll probably stay in that range.

Thabo hasn't improved the way I THOUGHT he would, being that he played internationally for so long. Griffin actually helps us alot more on the floor than Thabo as of this moment. I am very fond of his passing ability and defense but I'd be fine with us developing Deng, Gordon, Khyrapa, Hinrich & those two 2nd rounders we're getting this up-coming draft. Although, I wouldn't be surprised if we could trade those two 2nd rounders + Khyrapa and land one of Phoenix's LATE 1st rounders (currently 29 & 24).

TT, as you all know, is a player I'm a big fan of but if we can land a 26 year old 20/9/4/2 player, I'd trade him with the QUICKNESS. I LOVE his defensive ability and he'll only get better but it may take him a few years. Gasol would be much more valuable to us over that period of time. My only fear is that we won't be able to find a defensive player of his caliber when Wallace's contract is up.

*Bottom Line :*

West would be an idiot to turn that offer down & we'd be foolish not to offer it. But I DO believe TT & TS will hunt us down the line though.

G Hinrich / Duhon
G Gordon / Griffin
F Deng / Nocioni
F Gasol / Khyrapa
C Wallace


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

McGraw does a nice job of summarizing things. I guess we'll see soon what Paxson and West can or cannot work out. 

Surprisingly, West has not been exactly pummeled with offers for Gasol. I guess most teams that have high draft choices to offer are looking to shed salary, not take on more. More successful teams tend to have fewer young players (who are often low draft picks) and no desirable picks. Finally, there is the business of expiring contracts, which may not be in abundance either.


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## Bulldozer (Jul 11, 2006)

RoRo said:


> yeah make gordan the full time pg. i'd love to see how many palming violations he'd get called for. or how many cross court passes to the defender he can throw after a hard double team.


Is Gordan the foreigner way of saying Jordan? :biggrin: 
Seriously though, I'm not buying that man. Gordon has played point, he CAN play the point and besides, I didn't suggest he become the starter...I think Du can handle it, but he needs a backup and since I envision Gordon as being our "AI", I'd like to see his minutes increased...maybe then he could be considered an all star, 31 mpg won't cut it. 

If you had to part with one of the three, who would it be? Why?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

I've got articles with a bunch of columnists analyzing the pros and cons of the trade, and I'll lump them all here for convenience's sake:

-------------------------------

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17174804/

by Steve Jones
Pau Gasol could help the Bulls, but will Chicago be willing to pay the price to get him out of Memphis and into the Windy City? 
That's one of the key questions looming as the Feb. 22 NBA trading deadline draws closer. 
Besides Gasol, other big names are drawing their share of trade rumors. 

The list includes Jason Kidd and Vince Carter of the Nets, Mike Bibby, Brad Miller, and Ron Artest of the Kings, and not at all surprisingly, Corey Maggette of the Clippers. 
So will it be deal or no deal for one, a few, or if the extremely improbable were to occur, all of the aforementioned big names? 
A closer look at their situations and those of their teams should provide a better bearing on whether they'll be changing their NBA addresses later this month. 
Memphis blues for Gasol 
It hasn't been real pleasant for Gasol for about the last month or so, ever since he went to Memphis owner Michael Heisley and asked for a trade. There's been criticism from some of the local media, and the 
I can understand why Gasol wants out of Memphis, and I can also understand why the Grizzlies may be interested in trading him. 
*For Gasol, this is season number six with the Grizzlies. He's played under five different coaches, and the best finish by a team he's been on has been third in its division. 
Gasol has been on three playoff teams and he has yet to walk off the court a winner in the postseason. If you're counting -- and the 7-foot Barcelona-born forward has hopefully stopped doing so in the interest of not putting himself through more self-inflicting pain -- that's 0-12 for Memphis in the NBA's second season. *
For Gasol, one would think a change of scenery would be welcomed. 
*As for Memphis, after 50, 45, and 49 wins the last three seasons, the bottom has fallen out. From here on out the most interesting thing for the Grizzlies is whether they, Boston, or Philadelphia wins the least games this season, and thereby gets the most ping pong balls in the NBA draft lottery. 
Management has to make a decision on how they want to go about rebuilding their team, but they have probably gone as far as they can go with Gasol as the lead guy. *



http://nwitimes.com/articles/2007/0...cneil/doc83be98cf434dcd8f862572840006c58a.txt


Dan McNeil/Times Columnist

John Paxson is in a trick bag. The player he covets most, Pau Gasol of the Memphis Grizzlies, is going to cost the Bulls' general manager one of his more valued young assets, either Luol Deng or Ben Gordon.

But if Grizzlies G.M. Jerry West is going to part with Gasol, Paxson also will have to sweeten the pot by including either a draft pick or the hard-nosed Andres Nocioni. Or both.

*Tough call for Pax, especially since Deng and Gordon were his finds and he practically drools when he extols the virtues of Deng, who is only 21.

I say move Gordon.*

Gasol would erase the Bulls' most glaring weakness, an inside offensive presence. He can play in the low post, commanding the double team, and make life easier for perimeter players Kirk Hinrich and the erratic Chris Duhon.

Gordon has been the club's best threat and the only guy who seems willing to close a game. His judgment, however, has been poor at times and he doesn't seem to be learning.

Gordon, at least twice this year, has afforded possessions to the opponent by going to the bucket with ample time remaining on both the shot clock and the game clock. Tuesday night against Toronto, he gave the Bulls a lead with a layup and subsequent free throw.

But he left 12 seconds in the game for the Raptors to give Chris Bosh another chance to win. And they did.

Gordon doesn't guard anybody. Deng does. Ben Wallace, who's paid a lot of money to be a one-way player, doesn't see the floor in crunch time. Deng and Hinrich are good enough defensively to keep the Bulls in every game.

Deng's arrow is pointing up. He can penetrate and explode to the basket.

Put Gasol and Deng together on the floor and Paxson will need a cup for his spittle.[/b]


http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/heraldnews/sports/258515,4_2_JO15_DAVECOL_S1.article

by Dave “I hate the NBA but I’ll weigh in anyway” Parker

I still look at NBA box scores when I'm motivated. At 11 a.m. or noon, boxing in that motivation is usually difficult.
I did watch about 5 minutes of a recent Bulls game on their western trip. I forget who the game was against, but it was one of the games they lost, of course.
During that span of viewing the Bulls, all they did on offense was shoot jump shot after jump shot. Do they possess a low-post game of any sort?
A nice Tuesday comeback fell short against the Toronto Raptors. The Bulls' 1-point loss left them with a 29-24 record, 4½ games behind Eastern Conference Central Division leader Detroit.
Bulls guard Ben Gordon and forward Luol Deng are reaching their primes. The offensively potent Gordon, who scores points in bunches, averages a team-best 21.3, Deng 18.6.
Both have the potential and drive to reach superstar status.
Look at all the NBA championship teams over the last 25-30 years. Most of them, with the possible exception of Detroit in 2004-2005, had at least two, and sometimes three, legitimate superstars.
Since the Bulls probably are not going to be able to trade for Minnesota all-pro Kevin Garnett, Memphis' Pau Gasol's name keeps surfacing.
*I'm not saying I want to trade Deng, Gordon or guard Kirk Hinrich (16.3 scoring average). But the Bulls need a low-post presence. Rebounder supreme Ben Wallace is a great boardsman, but he isn't a consistent go-to scoring threat with the game on the line.
In my world, I'd have to consider trading one of three -- Gordon, Hinrich or Deng -- and the Bulls' No. 1 pick for Gasol.
Sometimes, you have to roll the dice and see what comes up.*




http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/marty_burns/02/14/gasol.notes/

by Marty Burns

The clock is ticking on the big Pau Gasol trade. The Bulls and Celtics remain the top two suitors for the Grizzlies' forward, but as the Feb. 22 trade deadline approaches, it is still unclear what Memphis intends to do. Grizzlies president Jerry West, just back from a two-week European scouting trip, continues to insist he is content to keep Gasol if he doesn't get what he wants in a deal.
*Would a Chicago offer of either Luol Deng or Ben Gordon, along with P.J. Brown's expiring contract, a 2007 first-round pick and another player (Tyrus Thomas or Thabo Sefalosha) be enough to sway the League Logo?
How about a Boston package of Al Jefferson, Theo Ratliff and a No. 1 pick, with the idea that the injured Ratliff's remaining contract (one more year, $11.6 million) would be paid by insurance?
Could the Sonics get in the game with Rashard Lewis, their own soon-to-be lottery pick and Danny Fortson's expiring contract?
Nobody seems to know, and West -- who incidentally just agreed to extend his contract, due to expire April 30, another two months -- isn't tipping his hand.
"There's absolutely nothing to report," he told the Memphis Commercial Appeal. "Nothing. I mean, nothing. And we haven't been the ones seeking a trade."*
Could West just be talking a good game to drive up the price before he pulls the trigger? The Grizzlies are going nowhere this season. By making a move now, they rid themselves of an unhappy player in Gasol, clean up the books a little for a prospective new buyer and get a head start on the marketing campaign for next season.
*Meanwhile, momentum seems to be building for the Bulls to make a move. Chicago is coming off a 3-4 road trip that once again exposed its glaring lack of a low-post scorer. With the East wide open, the Bulls surely have ample incentive to go for it now.
Paxson almost certainly will not give up Deng and Gordon for Gasol. He might not even be willing to give up one.*

*Financial considerations might also play a part in Paxson's decision.
When asked recently whether he thought the Bulls and Grizzlies would pull off a Gasol deal, one Eastern Conference general manager said he rather doubted it.
"Gasol has a big contract," the GM said. "If the Bulls take him, I don't know how they'll be able to pay those other guys when they come up."
With four years and $63 million left on his contract after this season, Gasol would put the Bulls dangerously close to the luxury tax.* The reason is that Kirk Hinrich's extension also kicks in next season. That means Chicago would have three high-priced players in Ben Wallace ($15.5 million), Gasol ($13.7) and Hinrich ($11.0).
Meanwhile, Andres Nocioni is due to become a free agent this summer. He probably will command at least mid-level money, meaning another $5 million per year (assuming Nocioni isn't included in the Gasol deal).
All told the Bulls would have about $57-60 million committed to nine players for next season if they add Gasol, even after subtracting either Ben Gordon ($4.8) or Luol Deng ($3.3).
*It would probably push Chicago close to the luxury-tax threshold, which won't be determined until this summer but is at $64 million this season.
The bottom line is that Paxson might be able to find a way to stay under next season, but after that it would be almost impossible because the Bulls would still have those three big contracts plus they would have to pay Deng or Gordon when they come up for extensions.

Of course, the Bulls and owner Jerry Reinsdorf might decide it's worth it to go over the luxury tax for a chance to win the East.
"The East is so wide open, you almost have to go for it now," one West scout said. "A lot of owners will pay the tax if they have a solid chance to win. I think Chicago would do it for a chance to get Gasol."*


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Then there's this little tidbit I found:


Griz center welcomes time off after enduring a tough month
By Marlon W. Morgan

February 15, 2007
INDIANAPOLIS -- The All-Star break couldn't have come at a better time for Grizzlies center Pau Gasol. After the abuse he's taken the last month for asking to be traded, Gasol is a good candidate for a Southwest Airlines ad because he really does wanna getaway. 
''Believe me, it's definitely a good time for everybody to get a break, and for me personally, I definitely need it,'' Gasol said after Wednesday night's 114-104 loss at Indiana. ''Just to get away. I don't want to think about anything. I wish I was able to take my brain out of my head and just sit it for three or four days and let it chill because it's been so hard.'' 
Gasol has been booed by his home fans and criticized by some members of the media for privately asking owner Michael Heisley for a trade. The NBA's trade deadline of Feb. 22 is rapidly approaching, but it's looking more and more like Gasol may still be a Grizzly when the deadline passes. Gasol said he won't spend much time thinking about the trade deadline during the break. 
''After everything that has been said and done here, the constant reminding me of speculations, it's not going to be hard at all to get away,'' he said. ''Obviously, I won't be turning the phone off or anything, but I definitely won't be thinking about it much.''


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

In answer to McGraw's question, yes, it makes sense to trade for Gasol. There's not a player on the Bulls I wouldn't trade for Gasol. I hope Paxson comes to agree with me, but I doubt he will.


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## Bulldozer (Jul 11, 2006)

The ROY said:


> a Gordon/Duhon/Sefolosha backcourt IMO, could survive without Kirk but honestly, his defensive skill & ability to go on HOT streaks are valuable to us. Don't know if they're more valuable than what Gasol brings though. But it's just as hard to find a GOOD, young PG than it is to find a GOOD, young scoring PF or C. We did very well without Kirk earlier on this year but I'd rather NOT move him.
> 
> *TT, NY's Pick, Thabo & P.J. for Gasol.*
> 
> ...


I totally agree. I think Gordon's defense can improve, and we all know Skiles is D oriented, and if he wants to make the big money down the line, he has to have more of a complete game. Its why I believe, if the Bulls give Gordon more responsibility & minutes, he can be our "AI". Now if they don't give away Hinrich, even better. I dont know that giving up 3 high draft picks + cap space would be enough, but I think its good (enough) for Memphis... especially when you consider Gasol is asking out. Maybe not as dramatic as the AI/76ers situation, but its no secret he's being shopped around. That's a fair price IMO.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Mods, can we merge these Gasol threads into the big 'Gasol Trade' thread? We're having the same dicussion in like 5 different threads. If would be nice if it were permenentaly upped also


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

seems like the whole pro/con construction of mcgraw's article is trying to "soften the blow" as it were when pax inevitably does nothing at the deadline. to me anyway.



> Would a Chicago offer of either Luol Deng or Ben Gordon, along with P.J. Brown's expiring contract, a 2007 first-round pick and another player (Tyrus Thomas or Thabo Sefalosha) be enough to sway the League Logo?


if this isn't enough for mr. west, screw it. we'll play these. 

oh. and i cannot see pax trading kirk. just can't fathom that one. and a duhon/gordon backcourt gives me extreme pause (ok, it makes me nauseous). and with all the deng lovin' out of pax's mouth lately, i can't see him trading deng either. he knows deng is turning into a total stud. so....




Gordon/PJ/Pick/TT or TS = DO IT NOW PAX!!! 




:cheer:


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

LOL at the "Gasol is going to be too expensive" card being thown out there.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> LOL at the "Gasol is going to be too expensive" card being thown out there.


I have to agree. Literally, my jaw dropped when I read that.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

Bulldozer said:


> Is Gordan the foreigner way of saying Jordan? :biggrin:
> Seriously though, I'm not buying that man. Gordon has played point, he CAN play the point and besides, I didn't suggest he become the starter...I think Du can handle it, but he needs a backup and since I envision Gordon as being our "AI", I'd like to see his minutes increased...maybe then he could be considered an all star, 31 mpg won't cut it.
> 
> If you had to part with one of the three, who would it be? Why?


realistically, for a trade to get gasol i'd have to give up gordan. yep i said it. why? 

hinrich has proven he can run the point, score, and defend at a high level. gordan has never done all of the above in one season and i think he'd get worn out trying to do that. gordan (lately) has struggled with double teams and being the focus of defenses (i think anyone on this team would though). 

there's a misconception, imo, that because gordan is strong in the clutch, it only makes sense he can play that way for 35 minutes. but we haven't seen that kind of consistency. 

anyways, as soon as we get gasol we need build the offense around him. i like deng with him because he is excellent at working without the ball, perfect for a passer like gasol. deng also scores inside or outside, crashes the boards, he's doing a little bit of everything and i can see him having great all around games on a regular basis with more strength and experience. so growing into a 2nd/3rd option is totally reasonable to me.

i like hinrich because he can help defend, not gasol's strong suit. you need someone to deny guard penetration, because that will cause foul problems as they attack gasol in the paint. as a second/third scoring option kirk should be just fine. this also allows us to find a tall sg option.

and again, it's not a slight on bg at all. he's handled being the go to man on this team the best, but that is what gasol is coming in to do. and i think kirk and deng would be good compliments to gasol's game. it's also convenient that bg is also the best looking trade piece too.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> seems like the whole pro/con construction of mcgraw's article is trying to "soften the blow" as it were when pax inevitably does nothing at the deadline. to me anyway.





MikeDC said:


> LOL at the "Gasol is going to be too expensive" card being thown out there.


It looks like that between this piece and the damage control he provided in the wake of Sam Smith's attack on Tyrus (Tyrus is a great guy, Tyrus is misunderstood, Tyrus is just a kid, Tyrus is from Planet Louisiana, etc.), at the moment McGraw's got Paxson's ear and Paxson's got McGraw's pen, and this is all a pretty good indication that nothing major will happen. 

Oh, well. Here's hoping the stars and sun and moon are properly aligned on May 22! Whoo-hoo!


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> It looks like that between this piece and the damage control he provided in the wake of Sam Smith's attack on Tyrus (Tyrus is a great guy, Tyrus is misunderstood, Tyrus is just a kid, Tyrus is from Planet Louisiana, etc.), at the moment *McGraw's got Paxson's ear and Paxson's got McGraw's pen*, and this is all a pretty good indication that nothing major will happen.
> 
> Oh, well. Here's hoping the stars and sun and moon are properly aligned on May 22! Whoo-hoo!



exactly.

and meanwhile, i have not complimented you on your new avatar.

_pure gold._


:clap2:


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Well, FWIW, the "Gee Pau Makes a Purty Good Livin' Don't He...I Gots ta Thunk Bout Payun My Udder Guys" comment came in the Marty Burns piece...


and Miz, I agree...Scott's Tyrus/Planet Louisiana avatar is a thing of beauty. 

:worthy:


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> LOL at the "Gasol is going to be too expensive" card being thown out there.


You think the SI writer asking "one Eastern Conference general manager" as throwing out the too expensive card? If so, Paxson must have everyone in the league supporting his quest to appease the fans should no consolidation trade occur.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> It looks like that between this piece and the damage control he provided in the wake of Sam Smith's attack on Tyrus (Tyrus is a great guy, Tyrus is misunderstood, Tyrus is just a kid, Tyrus is from Planet Louisiana, etc.), at the moment McGraw's got Paxson's ear and Paxson's got McGraw's pen, and this is all a pretty good indication that nothing major will happen.


If that's so, then this is probably the offer Paxson has on the table :


> The Bulls could offer two players from among Nocioni, Thomas, Duhon and Sefolosha, perhaps a pair of future first-rounders and maybe even take a bad contract, such as Brian Cardinal, off the Grizzlies’ hands. So there’s always a chance.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Well, FWIW, the "Gee Pau Makes a Purty Good Livin' Don't He...I Gots ta Thunk Bout Payun My Udder Guys" comment came in the Marty Burns piece...


Ah. My fault, Mike McGraw.

Even so, the bottom line is that Pax and West have been spouting "I don't need to make a move" rhetoric for a while now. And they both have pretty legitimate reasons for saying that. 

Given that reality, plus the TOTAL lack of "heat" surrounding the situation, I think all signs point to "no deal." I'm not surprised that what "heat" there is seems to be coming from New Jersey, because if Thorn has gotten any indication that Carter won't re-sign, he has to move him post haste. 

Paxson seems comfortable. Okay.

West knows he's got a great chance at pairing Gasol with Oden/Durant *and* he's seen great signs from Gay lately. He can stand pat.

Ainge is in full-on tank mode and will take HIS shot at Oden/Durant and keep Pierce and the Green/Jefferson duo of hope and promise. 

McHale won't deal with Garnett until the summer. Of 2012, probably.

Dallas loves the team they have.

The Lakers are sniffing around for something to go with Kobe, but they love Bynum and the rest of the cupboard is bare.

I don't know . . . it could be one of the quieter deadlines in recent history, methinks.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

You could be right.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> Ben Wallace is a great boardsman, but he isn't a consistent go-to scoring threat with the game on the line.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Yes, it really does.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> Yes, it really does.


Ditto. Same with Darius Miles Davis.


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## badfish (Feb 4, 2003)

Borrowing Penguin's superhero above, I don't know what's going on in Pax's or West's mind during these negotiations, but I'm going to be really disappointed if the deal falls through. I understand that we can't grossly overpay, but a player from our core, cap space, duhon (or Sef), and thomas (or the '07 pick) seems like a deal that can get it done. Gasol is a great player that suits us perfectly. We can find an adequate replacement at the 1,2,3 spots much more easily than we can find an all-star at the 4 spot. I love me some Deng, Gordon and Hinrich but this deal advances our cause.

If it's West holding up this deal (or one similar) then West's Suck's As.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

"The Bulls could offer two players from among Nocioni, Thomas, Duhon and Sefolosha, perhaps a pair of future first-rounders and maybe even take a bad contract, such as Brian Cardinal, off the Grizzlies’ hands. So there’s always a chance." 

That's the only way I'd do it. Nocioni, Duhon, '08 and '10 1st rounders. I wouldn't give up the big 3 for him.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Yes, it really does.


Yes it does! :clap2:


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

McBulls said:


> If that's so, then this is probably the offer Paxson has on the table :


So that deal is at best Nocioni, Tyrus Thomas and 2008 & 2010 1st rounders.

Which is essentially Tyrus and 2 late round picks....does anyone truly think this deasl gets it done?

Sam Smith was on Memphis radio this AM and he said Paxson will not have the nerve to give up Gordon or Deng. West wants Deng and the NY pick. He does not expect a trade. I also think that there will not be a trade.

Seems Chicago fans can start the KG in 2008 threads now.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> Sam Smith was on Memphis radio this AM and he said Paxson will not have the nerve to give up Gordon or Deng. West wants Deng and the NY pick. He does not expect a trade. I also think that there will not be a trade.


That's a damn shame.

Deng, the Knicks pick and PJ Brown is a fine trade for Pau Gasol.

Oh well.  My bad for getting my hopes up.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> That's a damn shame.
> 
> Deng, the Knicks pick and PJ Brown is a fine trade for Pau Gasol.
> 
> Oh well.  My bad for getting my hopes up.


Ditto. :brokenhea


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## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! (Jun 10, 2003)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> You could be right.



Ho! But it jus maybe a lunatifc you're looking for! Turn out the lights! Oh, don' try to save me...

You could be wrong, but you maybe right...
you could be wrong but you maybe right..


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> It looks like that between this piece and the damage control he provided in the wake of Sam Smith's attack on Tyrus (Tyrus is a great guy, Tyrus is misunderstood, Tyrus is just a kid, Tyrus is from Planet Louisiana, etc.), at the moment McGraw's got Paxson's ear and Paxson's got McGraw's pen, and this is all a pretty good indication that nothing major will happen.
> 
> Oh, well. Here's hoping the stars and sun and moon are properly aligned on May 22! Whoo-hoo!


The whole money thing as a disincentive to take Gasol ( and presumably a crap contract like Cardinal ) is bogus 

Nocioni is going to cost Cardinal like money and probably more and Luol Deng or Ben Gordon + a lottery pick = the cost of Gasol 

Its not about the money at all ( in isolation related to should we or shouldn't we regarding Gasol ) 


The real litmus test will be what we do with Ben and Luol next year ( presuming we don't trade )

Resigning Noc is a given on the assumption the most he will get in the market is MLE money and we will retain him at that money or slightly more


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Something will get done..


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> The whole money thing as a disincentive to take Gasol ( and presumably a crap contract like Cardinal ) is bogus
> 
> Nocioni is going to cost Cardinal like money and probably more and Luol Deng or Ben Gordon + a lottery pick = the cost of Gasol
> 
> ...


Deng & Gordon are coming back REGARDLESS of what happens with Nocioni.

I can't say I'd be excited about going into next season with just OUR team + NY's pick (which will probably be between 8-12). We'd get even YOUNGER and we'd still have the same flaw as the year before (with maybe some added experience and growth from TT & Thabo). Suppose we let our contracts expire and don't trade anyone, we go into next season with :

G Hinrich / Duhon
G Gordon / Sefolosha / Griffin
F Deng / Nocioni / Khyrapa
F Thomas
C Wallace

Why look forward to a K.G. summer trade if we KNOW we aren't trading Gordon or Deng? The deal won't even happen and honestly, I wouldn't want to give up either for K.G. Is that pushing it? Maybe, but I don't think so.

Something better happen with P.J.'s damn contract, I know THAT much.


----------



## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

The ROY said:


> Deng & Gordon are coming back REGARDLESS of what happens with Nocioni.
> 
> I can't say I'd be excited about going into next season with just OUR team + NY's pick (which will probably be between 8-12). We'd get even YOUNGER and we'd still have the same flaw as the year before (with maybe some added experience and growth from TT & Thabo). Suppose we let our contracts expire and don't trade anyone, we go into next season with


I dunno. People were really excited when this team was being discussed as a 50 win team before this season. We're on pace to win around 45. If improvement from the core (particularly Lu who is only 21), Tyrus, Thabo, and the NY pick doesn't get us 50 wins, it should get us 48, right? I mean the only way in which we step backwards is Wallace's aging, right? I feel that it's difficult to argue that Big Ben is the key to this team's success right now.


----------



## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

I told you all this trade is not going to happen. Pax and West knows what each one wants but there is just too much differences that a deal will not happen. 

Time to trade Sweets, Malik, 2nd Rounder for Ronny Turiaf and bring back Scottie Pippen to the Bulls for the 3rd time in his career!!!:clap2:

Get it DONE PAX!!!!!!!


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> So that deal is at best Nocioni, Tyrus Thomas and 2008 & 2010 1st rounders.
> 
> Which is essentially Tyrus and 2 late round picks....does anyone truly think this deasl gets it done?
> *
> ...


Wow.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Seems to me we had a bigman who was a real difference maker, too.

<table width="100%"><tbody><tr><td width="90%"> *Hornets blow away Kings, close in on final playoff spot* 
<!-- / icon and title --> </td> <td align="right" width="10%"> <!-- Show warned sign --> <!-- End of show warned sign --> </td> </tr></tbody></table> <hr style="" size="1"> <!-- message --> 
OKLAHOMA CITY (Ticker) -- After suffering a disappointing loss 
the night before, Tyson Chandler and the New Orleans Hornets
wanted to make someone pay.

Desmond Mason scored 18 points and Chandler had 10 and 15
rebounds as the Hornets crushed the Sacramento Kings, 110-93.

David West had 16 points and nine rebounds and Devin Brown added
15 points for the Hornets, who absorbed a 108-104 loss to the
lowly Memphis Grizzlies on Tuesday, dropping them *one game
behind the Los Angeles Clippers for the eighth spot in the
Western Conference.*

Chandler, who has averaged 12.6 points and 18.4 rebounds in his
last five games, extended his streak of games with 12 or more
boards to a dozen. *In that span, the Hornets have won four of
five and nine of their last 12 contests.*

Reserves Bobby Jackson and Linton Johnson had 14 and 12 points,
respectively, for the Hornets, who shot 58 percent (45-of-78) en
route to moving just three games under .500 (25-28).

Ron Artest, who had tied a career high with 39 points in a loss
to Houston on Tuesday, scored 18 and reserve Corliss Williamson
added 16 for Sacramento, which lost for the third straight time.

Kevin Martin had 15 points and Francisco Garcia added 12 off the
bench for the Kings, who shot 40 percent (31-of-77) and were
outrebounded, 45-33.


----------



## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

> Sam Smith was on Memphis radio this AM and he said Paxson will not have the nerve to give up Gordon or Deng. West wants Deng and the NY pick. He does not expect a trade. I also think that there will not be a trade.


Good. The effective price of Gasol was Deng, ?Splitter, Nocioni and the money to afford a free agent this summer.

I like Loul Deng. 
I definitely like Nocioni, who almost certainly would have been let go if Gasol were signed. 
And I might like the big guys we pick up in the draft this June and in free agency with the money not spent on this trade. 


I'm not convinced that the addition of a 7 footer who doesn't rebound much or play great defense is the key to Nirvana anyway.


----------



## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> West wants Deng and the NY pick


Well West's asking price has dropped significantly, I have to wonder if it'll go down any lower.


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

step said:


> Well West's asking price has dropped significantly, I have to wonder if it'll go down any lower.


I didn't say that was all...just the principle of the trade. 

Also, the Memphis Commercial Appeal beat writer said all 29 teams have put in credible offers for Gasol with some being better than others. This was in response to him saying the early offers were lowball offers.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

McBulls said:


> Good. The effective price of Gasol was Deng, ?Splitter, Nocioni and the money to afford a free agent this summer.
> 
> I like Loul Deng.
> I definitely like Nocioni, who almost certainly would have been let go if Gasol were signed.
> ...



He grabs 9 a game....It's not like he's at 6 or something...

His defense doesn't have to be GREAT, as long as it's good and he blocks some shots


----------



## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> I didn't say that was all...just the principle of the trade.
> 
> Also, the Memphis Commercial Appeal beat writer said all 29 teams have put in credible offers for Gasol with some being better than others. This was in response to him saying the early offers were lowball offers.


I find that hard to believe. I was under the impression that never happens. Even the Hawks who can make any moves because of their ownership situation made an offer? What is Miami's credible offer? Dorelle Wright and a first rounder? Is that credible?


----------



## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

McBulls said:


> Good. The effective price of Gasol was Deng, ?Splitter, Nocioni and the money to afford a free agent this summer.
> 
> I like Loul Deng.
> I definitely like Nocioni, who almost certainly would have been let go if Gasol were signed.
> ...



What this says to me is that we intend to keep Deng and Gordon , not just now , but next summer when it is time to extend them 

Unless of course KG is available over the summer

We'll see 

But as I mentioned in the "What to expect with the Knicks pick" thread I would rather keep Deng and McRoberts + keep PJ Brown for this year's playoff run 

If it doesn't go down ( which I don't think it will ) notwithstanding his talent , Pax doesn't think we go all the way with Pau - that he's the missing piece 

That will be tough for a lot of posters to accept 

If we can land a skilled / finesse big in the draft ( which I think we can in McRoberts ) and add a vet big scorer ( say Joe Smith ) in free agency , the question becomes who would you rather :

* Pau Gasol and Brian Cardinal *

or

* Luol Deng, Andres Nocioni, PJ Brown, Joe Smith and Josh McRoberts *

???

For me its not even close 

Even if we didn't have vets Brown and Smith I likely wouldn't even do Deng and Nocioni + the draft pick for Gasol and Cardinal 

I'm prepared to be tarred and feathered ( just another Saturday night for me but that's a different story ) but Pax is right on this one IMO

*

Wallace
Smith 
Deng
Gordon
Hinrich

bench

McRoberts 
Thomas
Nocioni
Sefolosha
Duhon

Brown
Khyrappa
Griffin
*


----------



## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> I'm prepared to be tarred and feathered ( just another Saturday night for me but that's a different story ) but Pax is right on this one IMO
> 
> *
> 
> ...


Obviously if the trade doesn't go down, the Bulls need to make a consolidation trade at some point. The trade doesn't have to include the team's best players though.


----------



## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> So that deal is at best Nocioni, Tyrus Thomas and 2008 & 2010 1st rounders.
> 
> Which is essentially Tyrus and 2 late round picks....does anyone truly think this deasl gets it done?
> 
> ...


West said he wanted Deng, Gordon, and the NY pick two weeks ago. It seems that both sides are coming together as time moves closer to the deadline.

I also expect the odds of the Gasol deal going through is a bit under 50%.


----------



## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

McBulls said:


> Obviously if the trade doesn't go down, the Bulls need to make a consolidation trade at some point. The trade doesn't have to include the team's best players though.



Not necessarily 

It just means that PJ continues to mentor Tyrus and McRoberts in the short term and that the real vet minutes go to Wallace and Smith upfront with Nocioni added into the mix with some 4 and 3 and Deng 

At the guard spots we have our 4 guards in Hinrich, Gordon, Thabo and Duhon

As Wallace and Smith phase out, ideally , McRoberts and Thomas come through

The point is we're deep - we have contributors now and down the road - under this plan of attack we can be competitive and afford to be patient


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

An interview with Pau's Dad:



> Nobody knows for sure the decision the Grizzlies will make about Pau Gasol's future. With the trade deadline getting closer Jerry West, the Grizzlies GM, keeps maintaining an ambiguous (does this word exist in English) possition about the center from Sant Boi's trade, while several teams like chicago Bulls and New Jersey Nets don't hide their interest.
> 
> The player's father, Agustí Gasol, who is in Memphis where he is settled with his youngest son, Adriá, and his wife, Marisa, chatted with EL PERIDICO about the situation, after having spent some days in Spain with his other son, Marc, a player of Akasvayu Girona.
> 
> ...


Link


----------



## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> Not necessarily
> 
> It just means that PJ continues to mentor Tyrus and McRoberts in the short term and that the real vet minutes go to Wallace and Smith upfront with Nocioni added into the mix with some 4 and 3 and Deng
> 
> ...


Well said, exactly what I've been thinking of this whole time!!!


----------



## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> That's a damn shame.
> 
> Deng, the Knicks pick and PJ Brown is a fine trade for Pau Gasol.
> 
> Oh well.  My bad for getting my hopes up.


I really hope that we don't get to the point where, if a deal doesn't go down, two years from now people are critisizing Pax for refusing to give up Lu/Gordon based on an unsubstantiated Sam Smith report. I think it's important to remember that we know very little about these negotiations.


----------



## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> I really hope that we don't get to the point where, if a deal doesn't go down, two years from now people are critisizing Pax for refusing to give up Lu/Gordon based on an unsubstantiated Sam Smith report. I think it's important to remember that we know very little about these negotiations.


absolutely....and from the tone of the posts i'm reading it almost appears as if the gm is in a no-win situation. IF he gets gasol and deng, gordon or hinrich leave and become all-stars (all 3 are on the cusp) who perform at another level with a durant or oden in memphis there'll be the voices that cry out he's an idiot for giving up pieces that coulda/shoulda been kept. noting that in popular opinion, curry and chandler were the missing links that he let go for "aging" vets in brown and wallace and who both purportedly are performing anywhere from "dissapointing" to "suck's arse". if he doesn't get gasol, he'll be villified for falling in love with "his guys".

i'm totally ambivalent toward the trade; ideally, i'd like to see deng, gordon and hinrich take control of the team, and they become the 
force(s) that keeps the others producing consistently at a high level in their various roles. however, for that to happen THEY themselves MUST become consistent producers night in and night out. right now, those three aren't doing it consistently enough. i'm inclined to beleive it's mental moreso than physical. when they do put both together, the bull is a formidable squad and can compete with the upper echelon teams. in my view, magloire or smith would be reasonable acquisitions for this run because again, i believe the consensus believes the bull will go as far as hinrich, gordon and deng will take them. EVERYBODY else are the supporting cast.

for that reason, i think paxson wants to wait yet again, or better yet not *reconfigure* the team, which is what the gasol move would signal, and i don't necessarily blame him. IF this team overachieves (read EC finals) without gasol, they can move forward with the draft pick (wherever it falls) and possibly get a project big man or reload in the offseason with another veteran rental. 
if however, it under achieves (first round exit) i think he'll re-examine the scoring big in the offseason. gasol may or may not be available come draft time, and if memphis waits they very well could put one of the phenoms on their roster and become competitive again (with or without new owners) relatively quickly.

therefore imo, it behooves both teams to exhibit reticence.


----------



## BeZerker2008 (Jun 29, 2006)

I don't know, I think the more paxson waits the less of a chance he's giving this team a chance to advance further. Pax had a chance to fill the void this past off season but with the wallace deal & the trade of chandler that shifted things to where he stood pat with the guys he did have. 

I just believe we can't have Hinrich, Deng, Gordon, Nocioni together the next several years especially with Deng/Gordon/Nocioni needing deals & you know it won't be cheap. Having all of them together might sacrifice us in getting a quality big man or great supporting cast down the line. I feel weary because the way Jerry/Williams really cleaned up a lot of big contracts with the White Sox (to be a bit under budget) & to not want to keep good players on the roster & I'm thinking that he might not want to pay to keep this Bulls team intact if not showing progress.

I also believe that without doing any deal before the deadline might hurt us in the off season as I just don't see us filling that (PF) void with someone great until the 2007/8 year in which our guys will be older and who knows how this team will continue to perform under skiles.


----------



## Ragingbull33 (Apr 10, 2005)

I don't like the idea of giving up both our yongsters and the pick. I say trade gordon or noce, thomas or the pick, and filler


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

Ragingbull33 said:


> I don't like the idea of giving up both our yongsters and the pick. I say trade gordon or noce, thomas or the pick, and filler


Isn't this what I said about the Vince Carter trade!!?? You said I was giving up half the team!! Looks like you are too!!!


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I really hope that we don't get to the point where, if a deal doesn't go down, two years from now people are critisizing Pax for refusing to give up Lu/Gordon based on an unsubstantiated Sam Smith report. I think it's important to remember that we know very little about these negotiations.


Actually KC Johnson said the same thing, so it appears they both believe Pax won't give up Deng or Gordon.


----------



## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I really hope that we don't get to the point where, if a deal doesn't go down, two years from now people are critisizing Pax for refusing to give up Lu/Gordon based on an unsubstantiated Sam Smith report. I think it's important to remember that we know very little about these negotiations.


Well, that's exactly what is going to happen. It always happens. But usually it happens with absolutely no factual support whatsoever like "we could have traded Chandler for Gooden" and other such ridiculous speculation being passed off as fact. 

But this is different. The number of media reports from different sources suggest that either Deng or Gordon, the Knicks' pick and Brown would get it done. You've GOT to do that trade.

Obviously, we don't know for a fact that this is accurate, but it: (a) seems objectively reasonable; and (b) its been reported several times from different sources. Certainly there are subtle variations on this deal that I would not do. For example, I wouldn't be willing to include Thomas instead of the Knicks pick. 

So while you make a good point, I'm afraid I'm going to have to go ahead and criticize Paxson even with less than perfect information on this one. Paxson traded off Curry and Chandler. I had, and have, absolutely no problem with the Curry trade. But not making a move here will make the Chandler trade very difficult to digest. If Paxson passes on Gasol it means two things: (a) we likely didn't get any value for PJ Brown's contract; and (b) we passed up an opportunity to get one of the very best big men on the planet right when he was getting ready to enter his prime. 

I just don't understand it. Either Hinrich, Gordon, Gasol, Wallace or Hinrich, Deng, Gasol, Wallace is a young, awesome, NBA-elite level core of players. Especially with Nocioni, Thomas, Thabo and Duhon rounding things out.

You just don't pass that up. But it looks like that is exactly what might happen. And I don't find it acceptable now and I won't find it acceptable on February 23rd either. To me, Paxson has been a terrific GM and I've only found a small number of opportunities to criticize him. But it looks to me like he's about to blow a huge and rare opportunity here. 

Will he ruin the team in the process? No. The Bulls will still be very good and very young. But they won't be quite as good as they could have been. And that's the point, isn't it?


----------



## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Ron Cey said:


> Well, that's exactly what is going to happen. It always happens. But usually it happens with absolutely no factual support whatsoever like "we could have traded Chandler for Gooden" and other such ridiculous speculation being passed off as fact.
> 
> But this is different. The number of media reports from different sources suggest that either Deng or Gordon, the Knicks' pick and Brown would get it done. You've GOT to do that trade.
> 
> ...


You're probably right, Gordon/Deng + PJ + 2007 pick was probably something West would have settled for; although there was the rumors that he wanted one of our rookies thrown in or Cardinal included as well.

If the trade doesn't go down we'll have missed an opportunity to trade away one of two young stars. One who is the best shooter the Bulls have had since Jordan, the other a young forward with extraordinary skill and grace who might very well end up playing Pau's position better than he does in a few years.

In six months we'll see what the pick will be and what Paxson does with the money saved with expired contracts. Most likely he drafts a young big and picks up a free agent big with a sign & trade or the MLE. At that point we'll see how rare an opportunity this really was.


----------



## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

*Re: McGraw: Does a Bulls trade for Grizzlies’ Gasol really make sense?*



McBulls said:


> the other a young forward with extraordinary skill and grace who might very well end up playing Pau's position better than he does in a few years.


Pau would come here and have skills completely unique to the team. 

and i dont buy that some metamorphosis is going to happen in a few yrs and we'll have a homegrown Pau from what we have already. there's no one like that on this team.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

*Re: McGraw: Does a Bulls trade for Grizzlies’ Gasol really make sense?*

Its a shame.

I didn't like the Curry fiasco.
The Chandler trade was obviously a bad one.
Not pulling the trigger on this one is yet another blunder, IMO.

The Bulls will continue to field a scrappy bunch who play "the right way," no doubt about it. 


Its unclear if this group will ever amount to anything of note, and, sadly, Paxson is likely all out of high lotto picks, unless we get some more "found money" somehow. 

Let's hope for a Knicks tank job or for some lotto balls to bounce our way.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> two years from now people are critisizing Pax for refusing to give up Lu/Gordon


I don't think you are going to have to wait 2 years.


----------



## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

K4E, when did you decide you wanted this trade to happen? You've been firmly on the fence for weeks.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Well, I'm not going to consider everything dead at the moment. Even if it's a fairly marginal improvement, it's probably worth it due to the scarcity of post scorers in the league.

I'd much prefer if the Bulls could figure out a way to move Wallace than Deng/Gordon/Hinrich to do it though, but that probably ain't gonna happen.


----------



## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

I haven't given up on it yet either, Mike. As I wrote in the deal or no deal thread, I trust he'll make the right moves as I see them. And trading one of the core, the Knicks' pick and PJ is the right move.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> K4E, when did you decide you wanted this trade to happen? .


As far as I can tall, it started as it began to look possible that Pax might not do it.

The foundation has been laid for calling a non-move a failure.

In the event a trade DOES go down, the foundation has been laid for Pax gave up too much and/or waited to long.

No matter what happens, if there is no ring in June, there will be no joy in Mudville.

Paxs' sucks' as'

and soforth.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

LOL, love the posts about other posters, not about basketball.

At least the admins are not partaking.

Oh, wait.


Its always been a possibility that Pax would not make this trade. A strong possibility, IMO. That's one of the problems with Paxson.

I’ve been behind Paxson making a deal for Gasol for quite some time. I’ve been able to see the other side of the argument as well though, since I like Deng as a basketball player and he’s quite good. But, that’s more my heart and not my head. Gasol is more valuable and needed more on this team, and the Knicks likely will not have a high draft pick. With all the moving parts its hard to come up with all the preferred, acceptable and unacceptable permutations to this deal.


But, in the end, given where the Bulls and Knicks are at, it’s a trade that has to be made, both for “win now” and “win later” reasons. 




----



Paxson must know best. 

Perhaps we don't need players like Curry, Gasol and Chandler on this team. The jib is strong.

Two/Three years from now if TT develops and we get a good player with the Knicks pick perhaps we'll be legit. 

Year 6/7 on the job.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> The foundation has been laid for calling a non-move a failure.
> 
> In the event a trade DOES go down, the foundation has been laid for Pax gave up too much and/or waited to long.


meh.

Deng + Gordon == Too Much

Deng + Knicks pick or TT == Do it now

Gordon + Knicks pick or TT == Do it, but I like the Deng trade better.

What's your take on this issue again?


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> meh.
> 
> Deng + Gordon == Too Much
> 
> ...


Pretty much the same as what you just laid out here. However, I find myself flip-flopping on which of the 2 between Gordon and Deng I'd want to give up. Right now, I'm tending toward wanting to keep Deng over Gordon, despite the fact that we have more depth at 3.



> Its always been a possibility that Pax would not make this trade. A strong possibility, IMO.


It takes 2 GMs to make a deal.

Also, while I personally think giving up Gordon OR Deng is an acceptable price, I can't really go so far as to to say that an analysis that comes down on the side of not being willing to trade EITHER and standing pat rather than giving them up is a mistake/failure.

But, me, personally, I'd pull the trigger on a deal that included one or the other.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> But it takes 2 GMs to make a deal.


True, although reports indicate that Paxson does not want to give up either Deng or Gordon. 

We both agree that Deng or Gordon are acceptable to give up.

Perhaps its posturing. I doubt it.




The Cap Space converted into Ben Wallace signing was supposed to cement this team into "true contender" status anyway. We supposedly didn't need Pau Gasol. But, everyone pretty much agrees that our current roster isn't enough.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> LOL, love the posts about other posters, not about basketball.
> 
> At least the admins are not partaking.
> 
> Oh, wait.


Not really tring to get personal about posters...just observing posts and guessing where lines of thinking are leading...

sorry if I've misread the situation.

NOTE:

Just so its clear, I am on record, officially, here:


I WILL BE DISAPPOINTED IF A DEAL DOESN'T GO DOWN, AND I'LL WANT MCGRAW OR SOMEONE RELIABLE EXPLAINING THAT WEST JUST WANTED TOO MUCH FOR THE 2 SIDES TO COME TO TERMS.

WHILE I CAN UNDERSTAND NOT WANTING TO GIVE UP EITHER KEY PLAYER, I DO HOPE PAX CAN WORK OUT A DEAL THAT GOES THROUGH. PREFERABLY *NOT* GIVING UP DENG OR GORDON, BUT I DON'T THINK GIVING UP EITHER/OR SHOULD SCUTTLE A DEAL.

I THINK IF IT TURNS OUT JERRY WEST'S DEMANDS ARE/WERE REASONABLE, AND PAXSON TURNS OUT TO BE THE HARD-LINER, IT WILL BE A HUGE MANAGEMENT MISTAKE.

There.

I'm on record.

No turning back.

Sorry for the all-caps. Not shouting, just putting my position out there for all to see.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Not really tring to get personal about posters..


You sure don't seem to be tryinhg not to either.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> You sure don't seem to be tryinhg not to either.


Thanks for clearing that up, man.

Razor sharp.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Thanks for clearing that up, man.


I doubt it needs to be cleared up, it's pretty obvious :lol:


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> I doubt it needs to be cleared up, it's pretty obvious :lol:


Then why the post?


----------



## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Jesus Christ. What's wrong with posting about other posters *posts* for crying out loud? 

Its not like anyone is using personal insults (though I'm about to). You guys need to get over yourselves. We are already encountering reduced activity around here as it is. Chill out. 

What a bunch of cry babies. And yes, that is a post about posters, not basketball.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Not really tring to get personal about posters...just observing posts and guessing where lines of thinking are leading...
> 
> sorry if I've misread the situation.
> 
> ...


You forgot to sprinkle in a few wherefors, therefors, and parties of the second parts.

Anyhow, the bottom line is it's all about results. The team as constituted now is not looking like much of a real contender. You can't blame Paxson for making a move to try and improve the team. This is unlike most of his past moves, so there is a real difference. Gasol isn't some chump like JYD or AD or PJ Brown or whowever we've received in most past trades. If he makes the trade and it doesn't work out to perfection, at least he went to bat and didn't leave the bat on his shoulder.

You better believe that if we trade Gordon and/or Deng (or Hinrich), there are going to be update threads about the traded player(s). As there should be. Should we stop liking the player(s) traded for some reason? I don't think so.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Jesus Christ. What's wrong with posting about other posters *posts* for crying out loud?
> 
> Its not like anyone is using personal insults (though I'm about to). You guys need to get over yourselves. We are already encountering reduced activity around here as it is. Chill out.
> 
> What a bunch of cry babies. And yes, that is a post about posters, not basketball.


It is about the reduced activity around here.

And to answer the question... it's obviously not bad to talk about each other's posts. That's a good thing. We want discussion about basketball. "I agree with this", "I don't believe that". "That's totally wrong". Etc.

The comment I'm taking issue with damn sure hasn't been the first one, and it diverted the conversation away from one about basketball, where people were disagreeing (often in predictable ways) to one about people. 

*Away from the content of the post and to the writer of the post.*

Perhaps it's a subtle difference, but it's a difference between right and wrong, good and bad posting. Talking about basketball and disagreeing is one thing. Talking about people through their opinions, writing style, or whatever is crossing a line very different from responding to the content of a post. Which, of course, you know.

People observe and react to the latter type of comment very differently than they do the former. They react negatively and in several years of modding here, my belief is they inevitably come back as attacks, complaints, hard feelings or lost posters later.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Your focus has always been misplaced on what is causing posters to leave. I'm not going to get into all of this again since I've already discussed it with you in the past. You do what you think needs to be done and we'll see if the downward trend continues.

And bear in mind, the only reason I comment at all is because I enjoy this place. If I didn't care, I'd just leave.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Your focus has always been misplaced on what is causing posters to leave. I'm not going to get into all of this again since I've already discussed it with you in the past. You do what you think needs to be done and we'll see if the downward trend continues.
> 
> And bear in mind, the only reason I comment at all is because I enjoy this place. If I didn't care, I'd just leave.


I don't think my focus has been misplaced. This particular issue certainly isn't the only reason and it isn't the sole focus. It's one among several, probably not in my top three. Nonetheless, I know from firsthand statements of folks it's a reason. As such, it's worth doing something about.

For your part, I'm glad you continue to care and enjoy this place. Check your pms in a min


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

MikeDC said:


> I don't think my focus has been misplaced. This particular issue certainly isn't the only reason and it isn't the sole focus. It's one among several, probably not in my top three. Nonetheless, I know from firsthand statements of folks it's a reason. As such, it's worth doing something about.
> 
> For your part, I'm glad you continue to care and enjoy this place. Check your pms in a min


Fair enough. I'll keep an eye out.

Resume thread.


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## Cocoa Rice Krispies (Oct 10, 2004)

MikeDC said:


> It is about the reduced activity around here.


Not to beat a dead horse, but I think the "I just made my first Geocities webpage!" redesign might have something to do with that.

Still love you guys, and I totally understand the need for the ads, but there's an entire page of unimportant information at the top of each post that I have to skip, a 100-pixel banner hogging space at the bottom if I dare to browse without logging in (again, I'm sure this is costing you more members than it's gaining you), and a distracting, tiled background that would never be seen on a big-time, professional site that emphasizes usability like Google, Amazon, or Yahoo.

Aaand now back to basketball.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

"Physician, heal thyself."


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> Well, that's exactly what is going to happen. It always happens. But usually it happens with absolutely no factual support whatsoever like "we could have traded Chandler for Gooden" and other such ridiculous speculation being passed off as fact.
> 
> But this is different. The number of media reports from different sources suggest that either Deng or Gordon, the Knicks' pick and Brown would get it done. You've GOT to do that trade.
> 
> ...


There are also a number of reports - as recently as Sam Smith's column today - claiming that West is still demanding two of the big four. There are reports that suggest the Bulls are the only team or one of hte only teams seriously involved in negotiations and others stating that every team in the league has made a credible offer at this point. I think any way you cut it there are enough conflicting reports that even if there is more information leaked with these negotiations than most, this is all still speculation. I suppose some reports quote team sources or league sources claiming that Pax has refused to part with Lu or Gordon _up to this point_. I listened to K.C.'s podcast and he seemed to say that from the way Paxson talks he gets the impression he is reluctant to part with Deng or Gordon. That strikes me as very far from firm. I realize that this means it is almost impossible to critisize a GM for failing to make a move, and that can be problematic for fans who want to express their opinion of the team's GM. At the same time, a lot of people on this board are very opinionated and some frequently ridicule Pax. I have problems with a situation where posters are calling for the man's job left and right while calling him a failure based on information that is nowhere near certain.

I understand you feel strongly about where to draw the line as far as what is an offer that needs to be made but I feel there are a lot of gradations there. For instance, we're both willing to move Deng or Gordon but you draw the line at including Tyrus whereas I wouldn't include Tyrus or the pick. That's a pretty fine distinction in my opinion since you can make a case that the two are of comparable value. If Pax turns down a deal of Deng or Gordon, P.J. and a future first rounder I would disagree and be disappointed with him. Personally though, I think I'd have a hard time being outraged though since his view only deviated marginally from mine.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> I realize that this means it is almost impossible to critisize a GM for failing to make a move, and that can be problematic for fans who want to express their opinion of the team's GM. *At the same time, a lot of people on this board are very opinionated and some frequently ridicule Pax. I have problems with a situation where posters are calling for the man's job left and right while calling him a failure based on information that is nowhere near certain.*


Jeremy, you have no idea how much I agree with this. I've been beating that drum for over two years now in this forum. 

But while you point out some inconsistencies in the media, I think this time its going to end up being different. I think we'll be able to make some reasonable assumptions this time. 

And with the massive amount of media attention this has been getting, and the detail reported to date, I think we'll get a pretty good picture from the press shortly after the deadline. 

Don't get me wrong. If some reports, when its over, say West hung on and wouldn't deal short of 2 of Hinrich/Deng/Gordon while other reports say Deng and pick were enough, I'll be right there with you beating that drum again. Because there will be a huge inconsistency. 

But that isn't really how I'm reading it right now and I think its going to be pretty well reported after. 



> I understand you feel strongly about where to draw the line as far as what is an offer that needs to be made but I feel there are a lot of gradations there. For instance, we're both willing to move Deng or Gordon but you draw the line at including Tyrus whereas I wouldn't include Tyrus or the pick. That's a pretty fine distinction in my opinion since you can make a case that the two are of comparable value. If Pax turns down a deal of Deng or Gordon, P.J. and a future first rounder I would disagree and be disappointed with him. *Personally though, I think I'd have a hard time being outraged though since his view only deviated marginally from mine.*


I don't agree with that though. There is no "marginal" difference when we are talking about acquiring a young star that so blatantly fills our biggest team need. There is only acquire him vs. don't acquire him. 

I realize that is definitive and that usually isn't my style at all. But it is in this case. If I learn that Paxson wouldn't pony up what I think he should have, even if the disparity is "marginal", I'm going to be very critical of his decision. And if he does marginally depart from my outlook (like with the Thomas vs. pick element), I hope he does so on the side of acquisition, not retention. Because I'll be far more likely to get in line with that.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Cocoa Rice Krispies said:


> Not to beat a dead horse, but I think the "I just made my first Geocities webpage!" redesign might have something to do with that.
> 
> Still love you guys, and I totally understand the need for the ads, but there's an entire page of unimportant information at the top of each post that I have to skip, a 100-pixel banner hogging space at the bottom if I dare to browse without logging in (again, I'm sure this is costing you more members than it's gaining you), and a distracting, tiled background that would never be seen on a big-time, professional site that emphasizes usability like Google, Amazon, or Yahoo.
> 
> Aaand now back to basketball.



Passed along your post to the rest of the powers-that-be.

Please note that at the very least, you can have more space at the top of the page with our most recent update -- you can minimize the ticker area.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> Jeremy, you have no idea how much I agree with this. I've been beating that drum for over two years now in this forum.
> 
> But while you point out some inconsistencies in the media, I think this time its going to end up being different. I think we'll be able to make some reasonable assumptions this time.
> 
> ...


That would be great. As a fan, that amount of transparency is ideal when you're trying to evaluate your team. 



Ron Cey said:


> I don't agree with that though. There is no "marginal" difference when we are talking about acquiring a young star that so blatantly fills our biggest team need. There is only acquire him vs. don't acquire him.
> 
> I realize that is definitive and that usually isn't my style at all. But it is in this case. If I learn that Paxson wouldn't pony up what I think he should have, even if the disparity is "marginal", I'm going to be very critical of his decision. *And if he does marginally depart from my outlook (like with the Thomas vs. pick element), I hope he does so on the side of acquisition, not retention. Because I'll be far more likely to get in line with that.*


Yeah. I was refering to the marginal difference in where people are willing to draw the line in terms of how much talent they would be willing to give up to pull the trigger on a deal. The last part which I bolded makes perfect sense to me. I'd maybe just rephrase your stance to say that you would give up Tyrus you'd just prefer not to. If I were Pax, I would refuse a Deng or Gordon, P.J., and Tyrus package (at least unless more than Gasol was coming our way) whereas you might be upset if Pax allowed Tyrus' inclusion to nix the deal.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Whoa. Double post.


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