# UNC cannot win a championship



## Gtown07 (Dec 10, 2003)

Ok so they lost but I didn't catch the game (too busy watching Big Roy continue his current 4 game tear) so I can't really break it down. Anyway here is Grant Wahl agreeing with me:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/grant_wahl/01/16/the.bag/index.html

Smart dude...This team will not win a chip. Count it, HB.


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## YoYoYoWasup (Nov 14, 2004)

I would tend to agree. It seems that everyone loves them because of their insane depth, but that's overrated to an extent. UNC lacks a defender in the post and don't get after it well enough defensively to win the title.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Not really sure how you can leave Duke off that article, imo.

UNC's defensive struggles have been there all year, and they finally cost them a bad loss yesterday. I've been ranking them #3 for several weeks, and I'm glad I didn't change my mind on them.


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## Gtown07 (Dec 10, 2003)

not sure how this was posted twice.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

They look pretty solid on both sides of the ball to me. Their defense is obviously one of the best in the country, they're very deep, and Nelson and Singler are playing some great ball. Not saying they're going to win it, but I'd definitely say they have a better chance at winning it all than Xavier or Indiana.


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## Gtown07 (Dec 10, 2003)

Seriously Duke? I don't see how you include them. They're a one-dimensional team all the way through. No way they have a shot at winning 6 games in March/April.

My 8:

1. UCLA
2. KU 
3. Memphis
4. Tennessee
5. L'ville
6. Indiana
7. Washington St. 
8. Vanderbilt


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Vanderbilt? Are you kidding me? They're going to go 7-9 or 8-8 in the SEC and they have a chance at winning it all?


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

You have Vanderbilt on your list :lol:

And Washington State for that matter. Hope they learn how to score in the next month.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

LOL @ Vanderbilt. Hell no.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Georgetown, UConn and Marquette all belong in the top 10 for teams that could win the title IMO. UConn is going to turn it on late in the season.


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## Gtown07 (Dec 10, 2003)

I'll stick by Vandy and Wazzu. I like both of their coaches and Shan Foster is great. 

UConn? Come on man. Who's scoring for them? And they only have 6 players. 

Marquette? Weak coach, no front court and their backcourt is very good but not that special.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Lol I knew the loss would bring you back, after all you went on a hiatus after the Georgetown loss to Pittsburgh. But without even reading the article, I agree I don't see them winning it all either. Our backup point guard is just not that good. Also of late the team has been finding it increasingly difficult to score consistently. But the great thing about this loss was it came at a time where Roy can finally reevaluate the team. Gotta get them focused again.

UNC still looks like a final four team though. Memphis, Kansas and probably Tennessee are right up there too. Duke and UCLA can beat anyone on a good day also.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Gtown07 said:


> I like both of their coaches and Shan Foster is great.


Did you see how UT beat Vandy?


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

I'm suprised Tennessee isn't getting more love. There only loss was at Texas in which they played their worst game of the year. They've been really, really good even with the alien who inhabited Chris Lofton's body the past three years seemingly abandoning his post. Tyler Smith has given them a legit post threat in addition to another strong defender. Lofton and the Smith Brothers form the best backcourt in the nation and J.P. Prince gives them another guy who can play with anybody. 

If they get a 2 or 3 seed I'll be picking them to go the Final Four. Hell, they would've made it last year (IMO) if they could have held that 20-pt lead over Ohio State in the Sweet 16. Right now, if I had to pick five teams who will probably win the title I'd say...

1.Kansas
- A lot of depth, a lot of experience, a lot of talent. They've been absolutely crushing lesser teams (good for those opening round games) and have played a decent schedule. Between Collins, Rush, and Arthur they can score in so many ways and Self will have them playing D. 

2.Memphis
- Obvious reasons. Probably the quickest, deepest, and most talented team in the country. We know CDR can take over games if need be and with Kemp and Allen at point guard, they'll have stability at the most important position.

3.Tennessee
- See above.

4.Georgetown
- Hibbert can be dominant but is prone to getting dominated by equally as big guys. Wallace, Wright, Freeman, and Sapp forms a very balanced backcourt and I really like Summers and Ewing Jr. on the wings. I think this team could absolutely destroy everyone they play in the tournament if they can make some shots. 

5.UCLA
- Another experienced squad whose chances largely rely on if their guards realize how good Kevin Love is and if Darren Collison can stay healthy. I think they are the most talented team top to bottom, but poor basketball IQ from the guards keeps them from achieving their true potential.

I'm not putting UNC(Hansbrough too passive, Lawson not good enough shooter, bad defense), Marquette (James too inconsistent, no frontcourt), Texas(not enough talent), Washington State(can't score), Indiana (not enough outside of White and Gordon), and Vandy(see Texas) on that list unless one of those teams shows sometime to place them on that list or one of the top 5 shows they don't belong (Georgetown and UCLA).


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

T.Shock said:


> I'm suprised Tennessee isn't getting more love. There only loss was at Texas in which they played their worst game of the year. They've been really, really good even with the alien who inhabited Chris Lofton's body the past three years seemingly abandoning his post. Tyler Smith has given them a legit post threat in addition to another strong defender. Lofton and the Smith Brothers form the best backcourt in the nation and J.P. Prince gives them another guy who can play with anybody.
> 
> If they get a 2 or 3 seed I'll be picking them to go the Final Four. Hell, they would've made it last year (IMO) if they could have held that 20-pt lead over Ohio State in the Sweet 16. Right now, if I had to pick five teams who will probably win the title I'd say...
> 
> ...


Wait a minute, are we watching the same UNC? Tywon isn't Neitzel out there, but he makes his shots. Scoring isn't a problem for him. Tyler passive? Tyler Hansbrough? I mean if you said Ginyard, Green and the other players on UNC had issues scoring, I would agree. But the two guys you just mentioned dont fit the description you have above.

Also how can anyone have Georgetown in their top four when they lost to a depleted Pittsburgh team. Hibbert is arguably the most overrated player in college ball. A player who has no equal on the court but yet never dominates. Something just doesn't make sense there.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Too passive? Or did you mean learn how to _pass_ (out of a double/triple team)? :biggrin:

And yes, after not looking like a legit TEAM (playing together at their optimum level), Tennessee is finally looking like the team they were supposed to be. AND... Duke Crews just got cleared to play either on Thursday or Friday. I may even put them above Memphis.


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## Gtown07 (Dec 10, 2003)

HB said:


> Wait a minute, are we watching the same UNC? Tywon isn't Neitzel out there, but he makes his shots. Scoring isn't a problem for him. Tyler passive? Tyler Hansbrough? I mean if you said Ginyard, Green and the other players on UNC had issues scoring, I would agree. But the two guys you just mentioned dont fit the description you have above.
> 
> Also how can anyone have Georgetown in their top four when they lost to a depleted Pittsburgh team. Hibbert is arguably the most overrated player in college ball. A player who has no equal on the court but yet never dominates. Something just doesn't make sense there.


In response to your earlier post in this thread- I responded to your Pitt comments so dont say I was ducking them. Go ahead and read it bud. 

In terms of Tywon. Very good pg. But he's not a sharp shooter. That's the truth. And he's a very avg pg in the half court. That's his problem. I wouldnt say TH is passive but he's just not very good when he goes up against bigger, more athletic players...which is bound to happen come tourny time....Unless Ellington becomes option 1 and gets hot this team is doomed to lose in the 1st or 2nd week of the tourny. 

In response to Georgetown:
I'm not saying gtown is a good team but your analysis is way off. First- we lost to Pitt at their place in a poorly played game on the hoya side...just like last January. Pretty sure that worked out.

To Address Hibbs/ Pitt/Gtown's bad start
Hibbert had an awful start this season but his last 4 games he's looked like the best player in college basketball...better than Jeff last year in Jan/Feb... The Pitt game he just didnt play enough- esp. in key moments in the 2nd half. The reason for that is because Vernon Macklin finally looked like a D1 bball player and JT3 kept him in- in my opinion- to keep him going and give him some confidence. W/O Hibbert for 35 minutes Gtown can't win right now. Coach is trying to change that....If you actually watch Georgetown even when Hibbert didnt look like himself we are clearly a weaker team...He may actually mean more to Georgetown than anyone means to their team nationally. 

To further discuss why Macklin was kept in and to prove to you I'm not crazy- If you watch Georgetown you'll see Coach use the first 15 games to give his bench guys quality minutes in crunch time. It's more about the progress of the team than winning the first half of the season for JT3. Ask any Hoya fan and at first it frustrated people (including myself) when guys like Rivers and even Summers/Ewing were playing in a tight game with 2 or 3 minutes left (Oregon and Duke last year really comes to mind) last year. But as the season went on everyone saw his plan. He's doing the same thing now. Notice the pattern over the last 3 years. We "underperform" until late January. 

I'm not saying we're going to win a title (I've done enough jinxing) but I think we def. have a shot at improving and being a top 10 team in a month or so.

also- sorry for the "we" language but I dont feel like editing.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Tywon Lawson makes open shots, that is all that matters. He doesn't force shots, he gets into the lane at will and makes his points. Tywon is the last person I am worried about on that team

I have no issue with putting Gtown in the top 10 by season's end, but I don't think they are a final four team


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## Gtown07 (Dec 10, 2003)

That's fair...Let me ask you something though. For a championship runs in March: Would you rather have John Thompson III and Roy Hibbert or Roy Williams and Tyler Hansbrough?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

:laugh: you shouldn't even be asking that. I take Roy and Tyler any day of the week. Tyler's passion has never been questioned. Put it this way, if Hibbert had Tyler's desire for the game, he would be the number 1 pick in this year's draft


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## Gtown07 (Dec 10, 2003)

Roy had a weak start but he's looked great recently...And I hate to keep mentioning this but he shows up when it matters...Psycho T on the other hand? JJ Redick 2.0...Great ACC players who just aren't good enough to will their teams to victories in March


I also like how you dodged the coach part of that question.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

So JTIII is a better coach than Roy Williams? They have different styles, Roy is a motivator, JTIII is more of a tactician. Roy has won a title, can the same be said about JTIII.

Matter of fact their careers arent even comparable

Final four appearances, tournament appearances, winning percentage? 

Roy shows up when it matters, really? What title have Georgetown won in his tenure there. And please don't act like Gtown havent had some talented players.

Tyler Hansbrough is not an extremely skilled player, but yet gets the job done. Roy Hibbert has no equal on the basketball court, yet he underachieves constantly. I'll take JJ Redick 2.0 knowing he will give his all on the court


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

I tend to agree about UNC not being able to win a title, but they're too talented to just write off. I love the Dukies however.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Any team with depth, guard play, and a post presence has a shot. Dumb dumb's know that. UNC's point guard play past Lawson is suspect. 

I want to go back to Vanderbilt's inclusion in the list of contenders. I'm fine if it's someone's opinion, but I want *legit* reasons.......

I also have a question that's still gone unanswered.



TM said:


> Did you see how UT beat Vandy?


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## Gtown07 (Dec 10, 2003)

Well lets see you have two very legit scorers who I love and think work well together in Shan Foster and Ogilvy. If those guys can keep scoring than I think that's reason 1. 

2. Kevin Stallings...

a. They have won games come March that they should not have won when they have go-to scorers. Freije, Byars,...this year they have Shan and Ogilvy. 

b. They are set on offense. Stallings usually gets his teams to play defense. If the D improves they can win 6 games.

No I didn't seen UT -Vandy but I do love UT too. Had a tough time not including them. In fact put them over Wazzu and Vandy and let me have 9 teams.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Gtown07 said:


> No I didn't seen UT -Vandy


Well, that's all I really wanted to know.

Box Score

Pressure Foster and they're done. 

Oh, and they lost to Kentucky!


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## Gtown07 (Dec 10, 2003)

TM said:


> Well, that's all I really wanted to know.
> 
> Box Score
> 
> ...



Look at the teams UF has lost to the last two years.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

please tell me you didn't even slightly imply vanderbilt is anywhere near the _type_ of team UF was


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Vandy won't win because they are a chuck and duck team. All they did last year was shoot 3's. The same as this year. People aren't talking about Jamont Gordon and Miss. State, but they should.


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

I probably watch more SEC games than anyone and Vanderbilt will suffer the same fate that Tennessee has and possibly will. Those that live by the three die by the three...its in the Bible for Christ's sake. The thing that separates UT from Vandy, and from UT in previous seasons, is UT plays top notch championship caliber defense on the perimeter. Not that they will win the championship, but they play that caliber D on the outside. On the inside however a team like UNC or Georgetown would have their way with them. Duke Crews could help that, but he's only one man.

I like Vandy if they are hot come tournament time because Shan Foster is that kind of player...but the first team they play that can guard them behind the arc and inside...they lose.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

HB said:


> Wait a minute, are we watching the same UNC? Tywon isn't Neitzel out there, but he makes his shots. Scoring isn't a problem for him. Tyler passive? Tyler Hansbrough? I mean if you said Ginyard, Green and the other players on UNC had issues scoring, I would agree. But the two guys you just mentioned dont fit the description you have above.
> 
> Also how can anyone have Georgetown in their top four when they lost to a depleted Pittsburgh team. Hibbert is arguably the most overrated player in college ball. A player who has no equal on the court but yet never dominates. Something just doesn't make sense there.


It may not be Hansbrough being passive, but just not demanding/getting the ball enough. Ellington is a nice player, but they don't look into Tyler enough and I don't feel he does enough to absolutely get the ball. 

And Georgetown plays defense and the defense they play is outstanding. If they can make shots for six straight games, and they hold people to under 60 pts, I can't see anybody besides the teams above them having a chance.


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## apelman42 (Apr 8, 2005)

TM said:


> I may even put them above Memphis.


:biggrin:


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

^They still weren't a Top 5 team to start the season. :biggrin:

I'm still trying to figure several things out...



Gtown07 said:


> b. They are set on offense. Stallings usually gets his teams to play defense. If the D improves they can win 6 games.


"Set on offense?" Two players. And Tennessee showed that all you have to do is have two guys that can slow those two down and you can beat them. 

And please elaborate on this...



Gtown07 said:


> Seriously Duke? I don't see how you include them. They're a one-dimensional team all the way through. No way they have a shot at winning 6 games in March/April.


My beef is that the arguments you're using for saying some teams aren't Final Four-type teams, you're ignoring for other teams.

For instance, UNC has as many and arguably more scoring threats than Vanderbilt. And there's no way their defense is any better. And there's also no way that their coach is better. But yet you're still saying Vanderbilt has a "shot." Some types of things apply to what you're saying for Georgetown.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

They might have a pretty solid offense, but that doesn't make up for the fact that they suck on defense. I still don't think this Vandy team is good enough to go even 9-7 in a bad SEC.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

You know whats hilarious about this thread. Two of the teams that Gtown have in his top 8, lost to a terrible Kentucky team. A team that UNC easily disposed of by the way.

So does this mean Tenn and Vandy can't win a championship too?


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

I said awhile back that I thought Tennessee was too flawed defensively (much like UNC) to make a deep run in March. 

I think it's pretty safe to say that the national champion isn't coming out of the SEC.


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## Gtown07 (Dec 10, 2003)

There are plenty of teams that have shot their way to final 4's. So I'm down w Stallings...Plenty of teams people didnt think had a shot have won before. Lets see what happens. I've made plenty of solid predictions where people have criticized. 

I dont like Duke bc they are too one-dimensional and honestly I dont like their team make up. Looking at KenPom and going by the #'s all there is to like right now is KU if I remember correctly.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Gtown07 said:


> I dont like Duke bc they are too one-dimensional


I'll go ahead and accuse you of what you accused others of - not answering the question. I could be misunderstanding you, but unless you're saying "They can play offense, but they can't play defense," then your statement in and of itself is incorrect.



Gtown07 said:


> and honestly I dont like their team make up.


Now if that's you reason for not liking their chances, then fine, I have no problem with your opinion. But your first statement isn't very accurate at least by the way it's stated.


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