# OT: Cubs News...



## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

OK, we're 6 out, Cards have been dominating... We are leading the wildcard slot however. I just heard on the news that Todd Hollandsworth MAY have re-injured some nerve in his shin that made him miss the whole season in 2002? He may not be back for a while. I was at the Cubs VS Brewers game last night @ Miller Park and I must say our offense was awful. We need Ramirez to be back and quick, and I think losing Hollandsworth is a big deal.

By the way Miller Park is a nice stadium :yes:


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Dangit HAWK!!  I thought you were going to share some new rumor or trade that might have happened... ala Urbina ala Guardado ala Nomar ala Finley, etc.

Yeah Cubs are scuffling as of late.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> Dangit HAWK!!  I thought you were going to share some new rumor or trade that might have happened... ala Urbina ala Guardado ala Nomar ala Finley, etc.
> 
> Yeah Cubs are scuffling as of late.


July 12th-

There is a rumor saying the Cubs may send SS Alex Gonzalez and a pitching prospect to Montreal for SS Orlando Cabrera... Score 670am...


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> 
> 
> July 12th-
> ...


Which pitching prospect?

Andy Pratt?! 

Guzman, Sisco, Jones and Brownlie are untouchable IMO. Any mention of who the prospect is?


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Which pitching prospect?
> ...


no mention... I assume it wouldn't be a tier A type prospect....


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> 
> 
> July 12th-
> ...


Orlando Cabrera, huh? He of the .237 batting average w/ 4 homers and 23 RBIs? SWEET!!! :| 

If we give up anything more than Gonzo for him, we're overpaying.


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## Interloper (Apr 14, 2004)

It would most likely be one of your top tier pitching prospects. Cabrerra is a damn good player and I doubt they let him go just for A-Gone and some bum.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Interloper</b>!
> It would most likely be one of your top tier pitching prospects. Cabrerra is a damn good player and I doubt they let him go just for A-Gone and some bum.



They wouldn't deal any of the pitching prospects superdave mentioned above...


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> 
> Orlando Cabrera, huh? He of the .237 batting average w/ 4 homers and 23 RBIs? SWEET!!! :|
> ...


He was an all star last year I'm pretty sure.... he was voted on by the fans. He is a leadoff type hitter, with speed, good defense, he is young, not overpaid (yet) and I firmly believe the reason he is doing so poorly this year is because he hates playing in Montreal for the Expos....


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## Interloper (Apr 14, 2004)

If you got Cabrerra for A-Gone, that's classified as rape.

That makes no sense for Montreal, a team trying to rebuild to just give away one of thier best players. They still have to field some type of team, although it won't be for the Montreal fans.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

The Cubs will not give up an A-level prospect for Cabrera, so I agree with Hawk's assessment. As for Cabrera, he just turned down a big offer to stay in Montreal as noted in E Insider a couple weeks ago:



> The Expos approached Cabrera, 29, with a four-year, $30 million contract offer in the spring. Cabrera refrained from signing the deal to assess his options, and now he's made his decision: He plans to file for free agency in November, which means the chances of him playing in Montreal -- or anywhere in an Expos uniform -- in 2005 are negligible.
> 
> "I have to move on with my career," Cabrera told Insider before the Expos-Phillies game at Citizens Bank Park on Tuesday night. "There's a better future for me somewhere else, where I can establish myself and know where that team is going and try to help them win."


In terms of talent, not a true leadoff hitter (a dying breed in baseball anyways) but the kid can rake as he was an All-Star last year and MOST IMPORTANTLY he puts the bat on the ball. Will strike out 1 in every 10 ABs as opposed to 1 in every 4 ala AGonz or Sosa. Will get you 15-20 steals in the second half of the season.

I'm curious to see which prospect is offered but I'm all for dealing for Cabrera. He'll have a fine 2nd half on the North Side.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/cubs.asp



> After showing little interest in Montreal Expos shortstop Orlando Cabrera, Cubs general manager Jim Hendry may be changing his mind.
> 
> Hendry refused comment Sunday on speculation that he is interested in trading for Cabrera, who is having a down season after a strong 2003.
> 
> ...


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

I think you guys are severely overrating Cabrera based on two good years (last year being one of them). He hit .297 w/ 17 homers and 80 RBIs. Very good for a shortstop. But, look at his previous years:

2002: .265 7HRs 56 RBIs
The year before that was very good:
2001: .276 14 HRs 90 RBIs
But the year before that:
2000: .237 13 HRs 55 RBIs

The only constant is he's averaged just over 20 SBs the last few years. And he's an average shortstop (career fielding% of .977 compared to .979 for Gonzalez).

I guess I just don't see the point. Would he be a little better than Gonzalez? Maybe, but judging by his season so far, not by much. Let's keep looking...


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

PC I usually agree with you but in this case, Montreal as a location is terrible for hitters. Vlad is the only person who consistently put up good numbers there. If Cabrera got to play half his game at Wrigley instead of Olympic Stadium and got out of the hellhole which is Montreal, his numbers would drastically improve. That being said..

The Cubs have very few holes as a team. The problem has been the entire team hasn't been there at all. I still think we need some speed in the outfield and a bonafide closer, but Ordonez is good in the field even though he is terrible with the bat. Our bench is stacked with Walker or Grudz, Hollandsworth, Macias, Martinez and such. When we get all of our starters pitching we could put together some nice win streaks and with Remlinger back we got some good middle inning relief pitchers. Outfield speed off the bench, closer, then shortstop should be our priorities.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>T.Shock</b>!
> PC I usually agree with you but in this case, Montreal as a location is terrible for hitters. Vlad is the only person who consistently put up good numbers there. If Cabrera got to play half his game at Wrigley instead of Olympic Stadium and got out of the hellhole which is Montreal, his numbers would drastically improve. That being said..
> 
> The Cubs have very few holes as a team. The problem has been the entire team hasn't been there at all. I still think we need some speed in the outfield and a bonafide closer, but Ordonez is good in the field even though he is terrible with the bat. Our bench is stacked with Walker or Grudz, Hollandsworth, Macias, Martinez and such. When we get all of our starters pitching we could put together some nice win streaks and with Remlinger back we got some good middle inning relief pitchers. Outfield speed off the bench, closer, then shortstop should be our priorities.


As far as Cabrera...how do you explain him having such a good season last year hitting in the same ballpark? To me, it's more of a case of a guy playing over his head, then coming back down to earth. If we trade a lower tier prospect, especially a pitcher, and Gonzo for him, I'd pull the trigger. I just don't see it making much of a difference. I'm apparently in the minority on that, which should come as no surprise to me.  

Our biggest problem all year, which I harped on in the off-season, is a lack of a true leadoff hitter. LIke SD said earlier, Cabrera's not that guy. Is there anyone available at shortstop who is? Probably not. If we don't get a leadoff hitter or a star, I don't see a huge need in making a trade for a position player. Let's see what happens now that we finally have most everyone at full health (sans Aramis, who should be back soon). I think anyone who thinks this division race is over is forgetting how dominant our starting pitching, when healthy, can be. We haven't seen it yet. We have a whole half-season to go. I wouldn't be surprised to see us go on an absolute tear in the 2nd half and there won't be a team in the National League that will be able to contend with us come playoff-time.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

I understand PC. I don't think you need a true leadoff guy with a lineup that when healthy is top to bottom one of the best in the N.L. However, it should be the top priority. I really can't think of a leadoff guy that could help us. Maybe the Yanks would consider dealing Lofton. But from a non-contender, I don't know.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

Would you guys be interested in Nomar? There were rumors over the weekend from Bruce Levine that there were talks going on between the Cubs and BoSox for Nomar. The deal would NOT include any of the Cubs starting pitchers, as previously mentioned. The Cubs would have to give up AGon and a young pitcher such as Wellemeyer.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dkg1</b>!
> Would you guys be interested in Nomar? There were rumors over the weekend from Bruce Levine that there were talks going on between the Cubs and BoSox for Nomar. The deal would NOT include any of the Cubs starting pitchers, as previously mentioned. The Cubs would have to give up AGon and a young pitcher such as Wellemeyer.


Absolutely. I also heard a report this morning that Red Sox scouts are scouting out our minor leagues right now. They apparently want a position player, preferably a shortstop (Gonzo), and some minor league pitching. Not many teams have more good minor league pitching prospects than us. I think Nomar's value is fairly low right now and if we're able to get him for a good minor league prospect or two and AGon, we'd be insane not to do it. If Nomar came here, played well and we get to the playoffs, there's no way he wouldn't want to sign long-term. Every player falls in love with playing for the Cubs (except Todd Hundley  ). Let's deal!

Nomaaaaaahhh!


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

I have really soured on the Nomar talks. I wouldn't trade a frontline starter for him because the Nomar of old wouldn't be the one the Cubs are getting. In fact, let's take it a step further and do a three year stat composite for Nomar and let's throw in Cabrera too. Taking only road numbers (Boston being hitter friendly and Montreal a neutral to negative influence) over the past 3 seasons:

<b>Nooomaaahhh</b>
.266 AVG / .314 OBP / .773 OPS / 25 HR / 103 RBI / 103 R / 10 SB / 43BB / 74 Ks in 687 ABs

<b>Cabrera</b>
.263 AVG / .314 OBP / .717 OPS / 20 HR / 101 RBI / 107 R / 37 SB / 72BB / 93 Ks in 921 ABs

Nomar was hurt most of 2001 so he has 250 less ABs over 3 seasons than Cabrera. But this doesn't explain the similar AVG/OBP/OPS ratios over 3 seasons playing on the road. Also Cabrera has a better K/AB ratio, more speed on the bases, and arguably batted in a much, much worse lineup.

So before everyone toasts Nomar as the savior, let's remember that he's not the same player away from Fenway. Not even close.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

Point taken SuperDave. However, Wrigley is not exactly the old cavernous Busch Stadium or Astrodome. I also think that Nomar is the type of player who would rise to the occassion if he came to the Cubs, I think a change of scenery would motivate Nomar to play even better.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dkg1</b>!
> Point taken SuperDave. However, Wrigley is not exactly the old cavernous Busch Stadium or Astrodome. I also think that Nomar is the type of player who would rise to the occassion if he came to the Cubs, I think a change of scenery would motivate Nomar to play even better.


Why does Nomar need a change of scenery? He's still got Mia and is beloved (by most) in Boston. Do you think he'd like to come to Chicago to play 5th fiddle behind Sosa, Prior, Wood, Baker, etc? I don't know about that


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Why does Nomar need a change of scenery? He's still got Mia and is beloved (by most) in Boston. Do you think he'd like to come to Chicago to play 5th fiddle behind Sosa, Prior, Wood, Baker, etc? I don't know about that


I don't know that Nomar necessarily needs a change of scenery, I was just saying that some guys play better when they have a change of scenery. Often guys will play above their heads when they are traded to a new club. I have heard that Nomar has been miserable with the Boston media, especially after he was criticized for sitting out the game against NY, when Jeter made the catch going into the stands.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dkg1</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't know that Nomar necessarily needs a change of scenery, I was just saying that some guys play better when they have a change of scenery. Often guys will play above their heads when they are traded to a new club. I have heard that Nomar has been miserable with the Boston media, especially after he was criticized for sitting out the game against NY, when Jeter made the catch going into the stands.


That line of reasoning would work better with Cabrera. Not only is he stuck in Montreal, he has publicly turned down a 4 year 30M contract to play elsewhere. He has expressed the desire to play elsewhere, while Nomar has given no indication he wants to leave.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Why does Nomar need a change of scenery? He's still got Mia and is beloved (by most) in Boston. Do you think he'd like to come to Chicago to play 5th fiddle behind Sosa, Prior, Wood, Baker, etc? I don't know about that


SD, I can't believe you'd dare disagree with the PC Load! Surely you realize it's a lose-lose situation for you!  

This is all my opinion and I could be wrong, of course...but I just don't think I am.

Nomar has definitely been affected by all the off-season trade talk. That, combined with the time off because of injury and he hasn't been the same...yet. Boston may be a right-handed hitter's paradise, but if that's your argument against him, let me remind you of the way the ball can fly out in left-center at Wrigley, especially in late summer when the wind blows out more. Some players need a change of scenery. They need to feel wanted and a trade can sometimes provide that and pick up someone's season. Nomar's one of those guys.

And before you say he's beloved in Boston, that's not quite the way it is lately. He's been getting booed, and if you read the Sports Guy, he'll tell you a lot of Boston fans are unhappy with him and want him gone. It seems they've turned on him. A change of scenery might help. 

Listen, if we have to give up Guzman to get him, then hell no. But, I don't think we do. If it's something like Gonzo and a Wellemeyer or two are you telling me that's a problem? Regardless where Nomar plays, he's one of the best offensive shortstops in the last 10 years, behind only ARod, Tejada and Jeter (though that one's up for debate). Just playing in Boston can't be responsible for that. Has it helped? I'm sure, but the guy's been a stud and it would be a great pickup. He'd get a huge boost and give the team a huge boost. Once again, let's deal!


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> 
> SD, I can't believe you'd dare disagree with the PC Load! Surely you realize it's a lose-lose situation for you!
> ...


Agreed. If AGonz, Wellemeyer and the rights to Hector Villanueva gets it done then I'm all for it  I just don't want to mortgage the house for what I deem a declining (albeit solid) player. There has been too much idiocy on the airwaves these days concerning the proposed Nomar-Clemment deal. I admit I was initially in favor it of... but after doing a shred of research and giving it a second thought I wouldn't do it. NO way, no how.

The change of scenary argument still doesn't hold water because after all we're talking about Boston and... we're talking about Nomar. If he's still get bothered by a few boos after all those All-Star appearances and years in the big leagues, then maybe he'd be better off staying in Boston after all. I'm not hiding the fact that I like Cabrera either and I would be elated if we could add his bat too. We'll see what happens.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Hey guys, since we're talkin' Cubs, what are our prospects to resign Aramis Ramirez? I WANNIM!


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> Hey guys, since we're talkin' Cubs, what are our prospects to resign Aramis Ramirez? I WANNIM!


I'm pretty confident when I say Aramis ain't goin nowhere. It's been too long since the Cubs have had a good 3rd baseman and there's noway they'd let a guy who's just reaching his prime get away. Not this regime. He'll be a Cub for the next ten years.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

I was so embarrassed for Sosa when he swung and completely whiffed at one of those balls in the homerun derby... anyone else?? :laugh:


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> I was so embarrassed for Sosa when he swung and completely whiffed at one of those balls in the homerun derby... anyone else?? :laugh:


Yes, that was embarrassing...but for him, not me. I just shook my head. That seemed to set the tone for the rest of his turn. I mean, who swings and misses in a HR Derby?! :laugh: 

What's with that pitcher he was using, though? I actually heard he's the Cubs batting practice pitcher. If so, he may be out of a job now because those pitches were horrible! Not only were most of them outside (until Sosa had the catcher setup on the inside part of the plate), but they seemed to be sinking down and away. You could tell Sosa was P.O.ed and not at himself. I don't even like the guy, but in that contest, I want him to do well because he's got the most potential to hit a crazy shot. Oh well, Berkman and Tejada put on a good show.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Latest three way rumor:

CHICAGO: sends pitching prospects to ARI
BOSTON: sends Nomar to CHI
ARIZONA: sends Big Unit to BOS

Dig it.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> Latest three way rumor:
> 
> CHICAGO: sends pitching prospects to ARI
> ...


Where'd you hear/read this, SD?


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> 
> Where'd you hear/read this, SD?


I heard that on ESPN radio this morning.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> 
> Where'd you hear/read this, SD?


My girlfriend's roommate's baby cousin, who went shopping with the 3rd cousin of Peter Gammon's half-brother...

Naw its been littering the airwaves all the morning....


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> I heard that on ESPN radio this morning.


Thanks, DMD.

Depending on the prospects, I'd be all for this deal. To be more specific, as long as Guzman's not part of it, I'd most likely be stoked with it.

I doubt this is possible, but I wonder if there's any way we can pry Jose Valverde from the DBacks as well.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

A caller on The Score had an interesting take this morning. Why don't the Cubs go after both Nomar and Johnson? Trade the prospects the Cubs were going to give Boston for Nomar to Arizona for the Big Unit . Then turn around and trade Clement and AGon for Nomar. Not sure if Boston would go for this, although a rotation of Schilling, Pedro and Clement is still pretty damn good. Also, would the Tribune Co. be willing to spend this kind of cash to bring a WS championship to the north side?

Imagine a rotation of Randy Johnson, Prior, Wood, Zambrano and Maddux. Wow. How about inserting Nomar into the #2 slot in the batting order? As a pitcher, could you imagine facing a lineup of Nomar, Sosa, Aramus, Derek Lee, and Alou? Not to shabby...


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Here's an article on this from today's New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/14/sports/baseball/14johnson.html

The expected pursuit of Randy Johnson has officially intensified with the Boston Red Sox contemplating a two-part deal in which they would send Nomar Garciaparra to the Chicago Cubs to secure prospects and then use those young players as part of a package to acquire Johnson from the Arizona Diamondbacks.

An American League team executive, who has been briefed on the trade discussions, said the Red Sox were talking with at least one team about using Garciaparra as a chip to help land the 40-year-old Johnson, who is a five-time Cy Young award winner. And that team is the Chicago Cubs, whose farm system is rich in pitching.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

The names being mentioned on Chicago airwaves that the BoSox want are Guzman and Brownlie. No thanks for a rent-a-player.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dkg1</b>!
> The names being mentioned on Chicago airwaves that the BoSox want are Guzman and Brownlie. No thanks for a rent-a-player.


No f'n way. The BoSox aren't idiots, and neither is Hendry by the way. They are asking for 1 and 1A from our farm system.

No f'n way.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dkg1</b>!
> The names being mentioned on Chicago airwaves that the BoSox want are Guzman and Brownlie. No thanks for a rent-a-player.


Those are the only two names the Cubs supposedly won't give up in the trade. :laugh: Sorry, Theo, but I don't think the Cubs will give in on this because they can get a guy like Cabrera much cheaper. I agree there's noway I'd give up either of those guys in this case. At this point, it doesn't seem likely to me that a deal for Nomar will happen, so I'll just set my sights on Orlando.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> 
> Those are the only two names the Cubs supposedly won't give up in the trade. :laugh: Sorry, Theo, but I don't think the Cubs will give in on this because they can get a guy like Cabrera much cheaper. I agree there's noway I'd give up either of those guys in this case. At this point, it doesn't seem likely to me that a deal for Nomar will happen, so I'll just set my sights on Orlando.


PCLoad, your presence is requested in the 'Orlando Cabrera for Cubs shortstop' camp... I know you've had your sights set on Nomar. But IMO that guy is so overrated by fans and media its downright sickening.

[cue broken record]
Cabrera has better range, better K/AB ratio, and will steal you 25 bags a year. He's averaged the same AVG/OBP on the road over the past 3 seasons as Nomar. And Cabrera could be had for much, much cheaper.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

Cardinals are now rumored to be in the Randy Johnson sweepstakes.... 
:laugh:


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> PCLoad, your presence is requested in the 'Orlando Cabrera for Cubs shortstop' camp... I know you've had your sights set on Nomar. But IMO that guy is so overrated by fans and media its downright sickening.
> ...


I'm fine with Cabrera, but can I call him Nomah?


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm fine with Cabrera, but can I call him Nomah?


Of course you can. You're the VP of the fan club. Kramer can be honorary chairman and campaign fundraiser. spongy can arrange trips to the strip club and OTB. I love it when a plan comes together.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

My take is I'd rather have Johnson and Cabrera than have to give up Guzman and Brownlie to get Nomah...

I couldn't imagine starting a 5-game or 7-game series with the Cubs and realizing I'd have to face...

Randy Johnson(Game 1)
Kerry Wood(Game 2)
Mark Prior(Game 3)
Carlos Zambrano(Game 4)
Greg Maddux(Game 5)
Randy Johnson(Game 6)
Kerry Wood(Game 7)

Hell we could actually go with a 4-man rotation and bring Maddux out of the bullpen...

And then a lineup like oh I don't know...

1.Derrekk Lee(1B)
2.Orlando Cabrera(SS)
3.Sammy Sosa(RF)
4.Aramis Ramirez(3B)
5.Moises Alou(LF)
6.Corey Patterson(CF)
7.Michael Barrett(C)
8.Todd Walker(2B)

BENCH
Hollandsworth
Macias
Martinez
Grudzilanek
Ordonez
Harris or Kelton

BULLPEN
Maddux
Rusch
Remlinger
Farnsworth
Beltran
Hawkins
Borowski
Mercker

That team WINS the World Series barring some mystical occurence which would more than likely happen because HEY WERE THE CUBS...


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

We're not going to get Randy Johnson AND a big time shortstop in a trade.

We've upped our payroll in the last few years, but we're not pretending to be the Yankees just yet.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

TShock, the issue with adding both is simple. Cabrera is in the last year of his deal and making 6M. Johnson will make somewhere around 15M this year and next.

IMO the only reason Cabrera isn't here yet is b/c the Cubs are probably trying to trade Montreal AGonz (and mid-level prospect) and aren't willing to pay a portion of his remaining salary. I admit that Johnson is a tantalizing thought but his salary alone pushes the Cubs to about 108M this year and over 100M the next. Scary thought eh?

The Cubs have four power arms if we make the playoffs (Prior, Wood, Clement, Big Z) and September callups in Dempster and Guzman. If we can make the playoffs, the Cubs will have a scary staff.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

TShockers, I understand your giddiness over a possible rotation including Randy Johnson, but I don't think the Cubs are going to give up what woudl be needed for a pitcher they won't even necessarily need. And I'm not saying he's not better than any pitcher currently on our staff, because he is...what I'm saying is I think we can win without him and I think Hendry feels the same way. We have such a strong rotation as it is that we don't need to give up on some high level prospects for a player we don't really need. Let's spend the money and prospects on a SS or a closer...something we have a more clear need for.

So, what's everyone's opinion on this: Guardado or Urbina and why? (I think we'll make a push for one of them)


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

Someone in the baseball forum said he heard this on ESPN Radio:



> Randy Johnson narrowed it to 5 teams
> 
> White Sox
> Cubs
> ...


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

PC, I think we'd be better off with Urbina. Guardado has never been a popular clubhouse guy although Hawkins and Eddie did make a lethal combination back in the day. I don't see a big difference between them, but I'd feel more confident in Urbina, because I got to see him last year and he's been in a World Series, something Guardado can't say.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Urbina. He's a National League guy and reports are that Detroit would part with him for much less than Seattle would for Guardado. Reportedly only a position prospect.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>T.Shock</b>!
> PC, I think we'd be better off with Urbina. Guardado has never been a popular clubhouse guy although Hawkins and Eddie did make a lethal combination back in the day. I don't see a big difference between them, but I'd feel more confident in Urbina, because I got to see him last year and he's been in a World Series, something Guardado can't say.


Valid points and I think I agree with you. I also prefer guys who can consistently strike people out, especially as my closer. Urbina can/does; Guardado can't/never has. Urbina does scare me a little bit, however. He's always been a guy who lives on the edge, a la Mitch Williams/Randy Myers (just on a lesser scaled) and that scares me down the stretch. I wish we'd just give the ball to Francis Beltran in a close situation one of these days and see how he handles it. I have a feeling he'd excel, but that's just me.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> 
> Valid points and I think I agree with you. I also prefer guys who can consistently strike people out, especially as my closer. Urbina can/does; Guardado can't/never has. Urbina does scare me a little bit, however. He's always been a guy who lives on the edge, a la Mitch Williams/Randy Myers (just on a lesser scaled) and that scares me down the stretch. I wish we'd just give the ball to Francis Beltran in a close situation one of these days and see how he handles it. I have a feeling he'd excel, but that's just me.


Honestly I think the Cubs are grooming Beltran for that role eventually. I'd be shocked if within the next two years you don't see most games being set-up by Kyle Farnsworth and closed by Francis Beltran. I don't know that if we were up 2 and the Yanks had 2 guys on and A-Rod up in the bottom of the 9th in Game 7 that Beltran could have the stuff to even challenge A-Rod. We need a gamer to close out games (SOMETHING THAT HAWKINS IS NOT) and Urbina is that guy.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Prior left in the 2nd with elbow discomfort. :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: 

anyone who has the game on TV have any updates?


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> Prior left in the 2nd with elbow discomfort. :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:
> 
> anyone who has the game on TV have any updates?


Definitely scary stuff. On a somewhat related note, I hope Dusty doesn't blowout Zambrano's arm too. IMO, he has really overused Zambrano a few times this year. Wood and Prior already have had arm-elbow problems early on in their careers, the last thing the Cubs need is to have Z develop arm troubles. Are any of you guys old enough to remember the Oakland A's of the early 80's? They had 4 great young arms and Billy Martin ran their careers into the ground. None of them, IIRC, had any success beyond their 3rd or 4th years. Of course, they were involved in a 4 man rotation as opposed to a 5 man rotation.

Another thing I have been thinking about with regards to all of these injury problems is this new trainer Dusty brought in from San Francisco. I'm not blaming him for the inuries that have occured, but I have been less than impressed with how he has been getting guys back and ready to play.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

On ESPN Radio this morning they were reporting that the Unit only wants to play for St. Louis or the Yankees, either of which is really bad for the Cubs in a way. 

If this is true, it really quashes the Nomar rumors.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dkg1</b>!
> 
> 
> Definitely scary stuff. On a somewhat related note, I hope Dusty doesn't blowout Zambrano's arm too. IMO, he has really overused Zambrano a few times this year. Wood and Prior already have had arm-elbow problems early on in their careers, the last thing the Cubs need is to have Z develop arm troubles. Are any of you guys old enough to remember the Oakland A's of the early 80's? They had 4 great young arms and Billy Martin ran their careers into the ground. None of them, IIRC, had any success beyond their 3rd or 4th years. Of course, they were involved in a 4 man rotation as opposed to a 5 man rotation.
> ...


You make valid and interesting points. Didn't Dusty keep our old trainer (Dave Tumbas?) last season but then brought in a new guy this season? Is it a coincidence? I mean, how much effect does a trainer actually have on a player? I don't know, but this sucks and I'd almost feel ok getting rid of this new trainer just for karma's sake.

I have a bad feeling about this one. He's had a tender elbow since April and now it's giving him more problems. I'm afraid this might lead to surgery, but that could just be the pessimist/Cubs fan in me talking. This just smells horribly bad.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> On ESPN Radio this morning they were reporting that the Unit only wants to play for St. Louis or the Yankees, either of which is really bad for the Cubs in a way.
> 
> If this is true, it really quashes the Nomar rumors.


I heard Mike and Mike this morning and Gammons said the Nomar to the Cubs deal is "dead." Looks like it's Cabrera-time, which I grudgingly will embrace.  

I did hear them talk about Randy only wanting to play for the Cards or Yanks, but they also added that the Cards don't have the money and the Yanks don't have the prospects to make the deal. I think Johnson will be sticking around through the end of the season. After all, from the DBacks' perspective, he signed through next season so they dont' have to trade him now.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dkg1</b>!
> 
> 
> Definitely scary stuff. On a somewhat related note, I hope Dusty doesn't blowout Zambrano's arm too. IMO, he has really overused Zambrano a few times this year. Wood and Prior already have had arm-elbow problems early on in their careers, the last thing the Cubs need is to have Z develop arm troubles. Are any of you guys old enough to remember the Oakland A's of the early 80's? They had 4 great young arms and Billy Martin ran their careers into the ground. None of them, IIRC, had any success beyond their 3rd or 4th years. Of course, they were involved in a 4 man rotation as opposed to a 5 man rotation.
> ...


Define the term 'overused'? Does that mean 115 pitches as opposed to 100? Big Z did have a bit of a dead arm towards the end of last season but I cannot as a rational baseball fan put that on Baker. Injuries happen all the time in baseball. Last season the Cubs were lucky and had Prior and Wood together 85% of the season. This year they've been together like 5%. I don't have a problem with how Dusty relies on getting his SPs into the 7th and 8th innings. The pitch count seems to get fans' panties in a bunch, but I do not buy it. 75% of baseball teams operate this way. The ChiSox averaged the highest pitches per start of any major league team (by far) in the first half of the season... is anyone riding Ozzie about it? No.

Prior has perfect mechanics throwing a baseball. Wood still throws a bit across his body he has greatly improved his stamina. Clement has no such issues with delivery minus his asthma. Big Z is a hothead out there and probably puts the most torque on his arm out of the four... but its not at a point where you change things. IMO Dusty and moreso Rothchild handle the staff extremely well. Rothschild is probably one of the best in the business.

Injuries happen in baseball. Sosa sneezed. Hollandsworth hit a ball of his shin. Aramis strained a groin. The beat goes on.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

*Good news about Prior...*



> CHICAGO -- An MRI of Mark Prior's elbow Friday revealed no ligament damage, and the Chicago Cubs will wait until he has completed all tests before deciding on what rehab route to take with the pitcher.
> 
> "The exact words used by Dr. (Stephen) Adams were that the ligament is robust and in perfect shape," Hendry said. "There's absolutely no possibility of Tommy John (surgery) or ligament reconstruction or anything like that."


Link to the whole story


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

670am reports... Randy Johnson to the Cubs for 2 top prospects Angel Guzman and Felix Pie... Pie is the Cubs' best position player, Guzman is the Cubs' best pitching prospect... (this is the new hot rumor)

As a Cubs fan... I don't like this trade for an old Randy Johnson... these are 2 of our best?! But you know what, what the hell lets win this year... I just don't know, it seems like next year never comes...


EDIT: Then the extended version of the rumor may have Johnson going to the Red Sox for Nomar Garciapara... it's a little easier to stomach if we deal our best prospects for Nomar rather than an older Johnson....

"There is a 50/50 chance the trade will go through".... that is a quote


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> 670am reports... Randy Johnson to the Cubs for 2 top prospects Angel Guzman and Felix Pie... Pie is the Cubs' best position player, Guzman is the Cubs' best pitching prospect... (this is the new hot rumor)
> 
> As a Cubs fan... I don't like this trade for an old Randy Johnson... these are 2 of our best?! But you know what, what the hell lets win this year... I just don't know, it seems like next year never comes...
> ...


I just heard the same thing. I didn't know getting Randy Johnson was one of the options. I thought they were just talking about a 3-way trade with the Red Sox, but maybe I missed something.

There's no way I trade both those guys for anyone, honestly. Especially not Nomar, as much as I want him. I have a hard time trading Guzman at all. I don't know as much about Pie, but from what they said, he's a "five-tool" player (I've heard that before and seen it not be so true). He's still in A-ball right now, so who knows how good he'll end up being. The Cubs have a lack of position prospects, so I'd have a hard time giving up someone like that, too. I don't think Hendry would do a trade like this, so I'm not going to worry about it.


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## Maestro (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> 
> I just heard the same thing. I didn't know getting Randy Johnson was one of the options. I thought they were just talking about a 3-way trade with the Red Sox, but maybe I missed something.
> ...


I gotta agree with ya PC. How old is Nomar anyway? Around 32 I believe and I assume it would take a boat load of money to keep him hear after this year, which I would not want to pay anyway. So in essence, top prospects for a rent-a-player no thanks.


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## Lets_Play_2 (Jan 22, 2004)

Let's see...

Randy Johnson. 40 years old, $15+ mil for both this year and next year  

We're already in the $96/$98mil range for payroll this year, and we've got both Clement and Rameriz up for new contracts.

And to get the "Big Unit", it's Angel Guzman (22 year old RH SP; currently at AA West Tenn) and Felix Pie (19 year old OF; currently at Lansing).

Getting the "Big Unit" for this year and next year means we're going to lose 2 of out top 5 prospects, plus Matt Clement, and maybe even Aramis Rameriz.

This trade would mean that we sacrifice the Cub's future just to (maybe) improve our chances for this year....

Typical pipe-dream trade from somebody at The Score (WSCR AM-670). Hendry's way too smart to fall for this one......

If this was a DBack pitch, it's time to tell the DBack's GM to get naked & take a flying leap (full frontal) at the nearest cactus.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

How about Ichiro? How about a leadoff hitter? That's what this team needs. What does Patterson do for us really? I'd package him in a deal with some nice prospects for a legit leadoff table setting center fielder.

Kinda like Kenny Lofton lol.


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## bigdbucks (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> How about Ichiro? How about a leadoff hitter? That's what this team needs. What does Patterson do for us really? I'd package him in a deal with some nice prospects for a legit leadoff table setting center fielder.
> 
> Kinda like Kenny Lofton lol.


Kenny Lofton stinks, don't need him. Keep PATTERSON!!!!!!!!!

Couple guys that are untouchable if I'm the Cubs: Corey Patterson (still VERY young, will be superstar), Mark Prior (once he's done getting injured is there anyone else better?), Carlos Zambrano (great stuff and he's only 23), Aramis Ramirez (best hitter on the team and he's only 25), Felix Pie (said to be a terrific 5-tool ballplayer) 

Everybody else is tradeable IMO


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bigdbucks</b>!
> 
> 
> Kenny Lofton stinks, don't need him. Keep PATTERSON!!!!!!!!!
> ...


I agree with you on Prior, Zambrano and Aramis (I don't think Hendry does anything that will prevent him from re-signing Aramis when he's just entering his prime).

I disagree with Patterson. He's 25 now and has been in the bigs for pretty much four years. #1, he's not the five-tool player everyone hyped him to be (which makes me cynical about Pie, as well). #2 He hasn't shown enough to me that makes me think he'll ever be anything more than a borderline all-star. While that's very good, it's certainly not untouchable.

I haven't seen Pie, so I can't say whether I think he's an untouchable or not, but, like I said above, I question his "five-tool" tag until it's proven otherwise. Having said that, I'd be hesitant giving up our best position prospect when we really don't have many to begin with, but I'd do it if he's the only one we're giving up. Gonzo/Pie for Nomar? Sign me up.

I'd also put Wood in the untouchable category, especially right now now. After seeing Prior develop another elbow problem, I don't see them risking trading away Wood anytime soon. Not to mention he was our best pitcher last season in the games that _really_ mattered.

Guzman is still untouchable for me, unless we're getting someone the calibre of ARod or Pujols. For a 40 year old pitcher or a 2nd tier star like Nomar, I'm not giving him up. Off the top of my head, I'd gladly give up Brownlie, Wellemeyer, Mitre and DuBois.

I still think we're going to end up with Cabrera instead, but these Nomar rumors just won't totally die. Just when you think you're out, they pull you back in.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree with you on Prior, Zambrano and Aramis (I don't think Hendry does anything that will prevent him from re-signing Aramis when he's just entering his prime).
> ...


I'm with you on Guzman, this kid is gonna be an ace in no time. But just what the Cubs needed was another pitcher. From what I've read of Pie, the Cubs organization calls him a five-tool player, but if anything he'd be an adequate replacement for Alou. He's putting up good numbers in A-Ball...(Was he in the Futures Game???). For Nomar I'm dealing nobody who starts for us right now and no Guzman or Pie. For Johnson, I think everybody but Guzman is untouchable.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>bigdbucks</b>!
> 
> 
> Kenny Lofton stinks, don't need him. Keep PATTERSON!!!!!!!!!
> ...


If you could package him and a couple prospects for Ichiro you do it. This team needs a leadoff hitter. BAD!! Yeah Kenny Lofton is old, but we need someone LIKE Kenny Lofton. Or maybe like Tony Womack. Oh we had him too....

Patterson isn't as good as you think. He is not in the same class with Aramis, Mark and Carlos


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

I'm still waiting for the Score670 to give me a modicum of baseball knowledge and sense after listening to them for 10 years. Some of their proposed deals are plain horrible.

IMO, and this is just one man's opinion... there are 4 untouchable in the Cubs farm system (these being the one's other GMs are naturally asking for): Pie, Harvey, Browlie and Guzman. Hendry envisions a outfield of Patterson Pie and Harvey in 2 years time. Brownlie and Guzman look to be fixtures in the rotation for years to come.

The Cubs will not mortgage the near future for a 1 year run at a ring. Hendry has repeated said he has built this team to be like the 90's Braves. So please color me skeptical when 670 reports that we're talking about trading our top pitching prospect and top positional prospect for RJ.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Define the term 'overused'? Does that mean 115 pitches as opposed to 100? Big Z did have a bit of a dead arm towards the end of last season but I cannot as a rational baseball fan put that on Baker. Injuries happen all the time in baseball. Last season the Cubs were lucky and had Prior and Wood together 85% of the season. This year they've been together like 5%. I don't have a problem with how Dusty relies on getting his SPs into the 7th and 8th innings. The pitch count seems to get fans' panties in a bunch, but I do not buy it. 75% of baseball teams operate this way. The ChiSox averaged the highest pitches per start of any major league team (by far) in the first half of the season... is anyone riding Ozzie about it? No.
> ...



When I'm talking about "overused", here's an example that comes to mind. I went to the Cubs-Sox Saturday game when they played at the Cell. Zambrano scuffled early and the Sox jumped all over him for a 5 run lead. Zambrano threw a crapload of pitches early in the game. He was up near 50 in the first couple innings. I sat and watched as his pitch count climbed to about 130 in the 6th (maybe 7th, it's been a few weeks!) before Dusty pulled him out, down by 5. Zambrano was struggling with his control and got frustrated, nearly every pitch he threw was in the mid-high 90's according to the stadium gun. Now I don't claim to be a pitching guru, but I can't believe this is good for Z's arm. Not long after that is when Z started having the problems with the cramps in his arm (though I cannot prove this was related to overuse). The media was questioning Dusty for leaving Z in the game so long at the Cell and Dusty took his usual defensive posture against them. I have to say, the next week, the look on Dusty's face was priceless when he had to walk out to the mound when Z could barely throw because of the discomfort in his arm. I recall Dusty took a lot of heat in the bay area for his handling of that staff as well.

One more thing. A couple media members have let it be known that Sammy did not hurt his back sneezing. One of the reporters on ESPN or WSCR let it be known that several media members were present in the lockerroon when Sosa actually hurt his back, and he wasn't sneezing. He didn't elaborate on what happened. I don't understand why they would cover up for the Cubs and Sammy and keep this quiet?


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dkg1</b>!
> One more thing. A couple media members have let it be known that Sammy did not hurt his back sneezing. One of the reporters on ESPN or WSCR let it be known that several media members were present in the lockerroon when Sosa actually hurt his back, and he wasn't sneezing. He didn't elaborate on what happened. I don't understand why they would cover up for the Cubs and Sammy and keep this quiet?


Rumor has it Sosa actually hurt his back trying to kiss his own ***, but I haven't been able to confirm that.

(OK, not a real rumor, but I can't pass up an opportunity to take a shot at El' Steroido.)


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dkg1</b>!
> When I'm talking about "overused", here's an example that comes to mind. I went to the Cubs-Sox Saturday game when they played at the Cell. Zambrano scuffled early and the Sox jumped all over him for a 5 run lead. Zambrano threw a crapload of pitches early in the game. He was up near 50 in the first couple innings. I sat and watched as his pitch count climbed to about 130 in the 6th (maybe 7th, it's been a few weeks!) before Dusty pulled him out, down by 5. Zambrano was struggling with his control and got frustrated, nearly every pitch he threw was in the mid-high 90's according to the stadium gun. Now I don't claim to be a pitching guru, but I can't believe this is good for Z's arm. Not long after that is when Z started having the problems with the cramps in his arm (though I cannot prove this was related to overuse). The media was questioning Dusty for leaving Z in the game so long at the Cell and Dusty took his usual defensive posture against them. I have to say, the next week, the look on Dusty's face was priceless when he had to walk out to the mound when Z could barely throw because of the discomfort in his arm. I recall Dusty took a lot of heat in the bay area for his handling of that staff as well.
> 
> One more thing. A couple media members have let it be known that Sammy did not hurt his back sneezing. One of the reporters on ESPN or WSCR let it be known that several media members were present in the lockerroon when Sosa actually hurt his back, and he wasn't sneezing. He didn't elaborate on what happened. I don't understand why they would cover up for the Cubs and Sammy and keep this quiet?


Wow. I'd be curious to see what the box score was b/c 130 pitches in the 6th seems extremely high, even for Dusty. IMO I've seen Baker pull his starters in the 105-110 range which I'd put at the median percentile of coaches around the league. I fully understand your concern with Big Z, and considering his age/mechanics, I would hope that the Cubs would be concerned as well.

As for San Fran, I don't see Felipe Alou getting slack for letting Schmidt pitch back to back 130 pitch games (coming off an injury no less) to start out this season. Again, I don't see Ozzie getting slack for riding his starters more than any other manager in the league. I'd even question the Moneyball-esque A's (the pitch count phenomenon may have started with Beane but I'm not 100% sure) are having issues this season with Harden and Zito looking subpar versus every team sans the WhiteSox. 

The Cubs are in a tough spot. They have 4 strikeout starting pitchers, and by nature, those pitchers will have higher pitch counts than groundball-flyout types. So Baker is in an unenvyable spot. Take yesterday for example. Pull Woodie after the 6th, get bombed in relief in the 7th. Baker will get blamed either way.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

I'm sure there's a way to look up the boxscore from that game. It was the Saturday game at US Cellular field. The last time I looked at scoreboard, Z's pitch count was 126 and it was the 6th or 7th inning and still going. 

I know there has been a lot of talk on the Chicago airwaves about Ozzie's use of the pitching staff. I have heard statistics thrown out that the Sox as recently as a couple weekes ago that the Sox had 2 pitchers the top Sox for most pitches. He took a lot of heat for leaving the rookie in that gave up 12 runs in an inning. He has been criticized continually for throwing Garland past the 6th inning (when he tires out). Alot of people questioned Alou for leaving Jason Schmidt in the game he threw a no hitter. Apparently he was well over 130 pitches?


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

I agree with the leadoff hitter idea. Having a guy like Ichiro would be sweet. What are some other good leadoff hitters that could be had?


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dkg1</b>!
> I'm sure there's a way to look up the boxscore from that game. It was the Saturday game at US Cellular field. The last time I looked at scoreboard, Z's pitch count was 126 and it was the 6th or 7th inning and still going.
> 
> I know there has been a lot of talk on the Chicago airwaves about Ozzie's use of the pitching staff. I have heard statistics thrown out that the Sox as recently as a couple weekes ago that the Sox had 2 pitchers the top Sox for most pitches. He took a lot of heat for leaving the rookie in that gave up 12 runs in an inning. He has been criticized continually for throwing Garland past the 6th inning (when he tires out). Alot of people questioned Alou for leaving Jason Schmidt in the game he threw a no hitter. Apparently he was well over 130 pitches?


yeah when the Cubs played the Sox Zambrano became dehydrated and threw a LOT of pitches... it was a Friday game I remember... let me find the box score:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=240702116

124 pitches in 6 1/3 innings for Zambrano, he left the game of dehydration


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## BSchmaranz (May 26, 2003)

Guy "like" Ichiro... who is like Ichiro really? And there really is no way in hell Seattle trades someone who puts 30,000 butts in the stands.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>BSchmaranz</b>!
> Guy "like" Ichiro... who is like Ichiro really? And there really is no way in hell Seattle trades someone who puts 30,000 butts in the stands.


Ok your arrogant posts wreaks of Mike Northitis.

1. Have you seen Seattle this year? They suck. Ichiro makes big big money. They'd deal him FOR THE RIGHT PACKAGE. Guzman or someone of that caliber would probably have to be included.

2. A lot of guys are "like" Ichiro.....are any of them that good? Probably not.....but a lot of guys play a similar game. Slap the ball, get on base, cause a havoc once on base....your prototypical leadoff hitter. That is what this team is missing more than anything.

Mark Grudzielanek and Todd Walker are not leadoff hitters....not even close. Both are effective as SECOND hitters, but not leading off. Or did you miss last postseason when Kenny Lofton led off?


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## bigdbucks (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> I'm still waiting for the Score670 to give me a modicum of baseball knowledge and sense after listening to them for 10 years. Some of their proposed deals are plain horrible.
> 
> IMO, and this is just one man's opinion... there are 4 untouchable in the Cubs farm system (these being the one's other GMs are naturally asking for): Pie, Harvey, Browlie and Guzman. Hendry envisions a outfield of Patterson Pie and Harvey in 2 years time. Brownlie and Guzman look to be fixtures in the rotation for years to come.
> ...



Is there a website or something that can tell me some of the names of the Cub prospects. My only resource right now is the radio every once in a while. I wanna learn about Pie and Harvey? and Brownlie and others


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bigdbucks</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a website or something that can tell me some of the names of the Cub prospects. My only resource right now is the radio every once in a while. I wanna learn about Pie and Harvey? and Brownlie and others


I'd say BaseballAmerica is the best one, Sickels (who does work with ESPN) seems to know his stuff and is pretty good at answering questions. Its strictly a pay site nowadays. Just google 'Cubs top 50 prospects' and there's a ton of underground scouting sites that aren't half bad.


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## thunderspirit (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> Rumor has it Sosa actually hurt his back trying to kiss his own ***, but I haven't been able to confirm that.
> 
> (OK, not a real rumor, but I can't pass up an opportunity to take a shot at El' Steroido.)


hey, better leave Corky alone...unless you wanna become one of his "emenic."


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BSchmaranz</b>!
> Guy "like" Ichiro... who is like Ichiro really? And there really is no way in hell Seattle trades someone who puts 30,000 butts in the stands.


Agreed 100%. Ichiro is absolutely untouchable in Seattle and it boils down to more than just stats. Arguably you could stick a Carl Crawford or Posednik in there and get roughly the same baseball production. But Ichiro probably adds 50M a year above whatever the value of his contract is... though ticket sales, merchandise, advertising, both domestic and worldwide. That is near impossible to replace.

As for the whole 'we need a leadoff man or bust' philosophy... I agree though to a very small extent. Name for me 5 good/great leadoff hitters in the MLB. Just 5. Give me 5 good ones out of 29 major league teams.. and we'll start the discussion


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Agreed 100%. Ichiro is absolutely untouchable in Seattle and it boils down to more than just stats. Arguably you could stick a Carl Crawford or Posednik in there and get roughly the same baseball production. But Ichiro probably adds 50M a year above whatever the value of his contract is... though ticket sales, merchandise, advertising, both domestic and worldwide. That is near impossible to replace.
> ...


Kenny Lofton?


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> 
> 
> yeah when the Cubs played the Sox Zambrano became dehydrated and threw a LOT of pitches... it was a Friday game I remember... let me find the box score:
> ...



That boxscore is from the game at The Shrine. The game I was referring to was the week before at the Sox park, when Z took the losss. Either way, he threw a crapload of pitches in both games, considering he threw about 6 innings each time.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> As for the whole 'we need a leadoff man or bust' philosophy... I agree though to a very small extent. Name for me 5 good/great leadoff hitters in the MLB. Just 5. Give me 5 good ones out of 29 major league teams.. and we'll start the discussion


You ask and you shall receive. Now, I don't know if all of these guys would be considered "good" leadoff hitters, but they're all better leadoff hitters than either Walker or Grudz. Would I take them all over Walker as an all around player? No. But, as leadoff hitters, yes.

Crawford - Tampa
Hairston - Baltimore
Shannon Stewart - Minny
Lawton - Clevo
Eric Young (E.Y.!) - Texas
Kotsay - Oakland
Eckstein - Anaheim
Ichiro - Seattle
Pierre - Florida
Womack - Cards
Podsednik - Brew
Izturis - Dodgers
Kendall - Pirates

Argue with me, SD! Come on!


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## bigdbucks (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> 
> You ask and you shall receive. Now, I don't know if all of these guys would be considered "good" leadoff hitters, but they're all better leadoff hitters than either Walker or Grudz. Would I take them all over Walker as an all around player? No. But, as leadoff hitters, yes.
> ...



I would gladly take Todd Walker over some of those guys. Walker was excellent before he was benched. He was absolutely tearing the cover off the ball man. I also believe he was leading the league in OPS % (if he wasn't he was up there) After Grudz has gotten back WAlker took a seat on the bench (stupid BAKER!). Grudz is batting like .200 since he got back. 

We do lack speed and patience from our leadoff hitters (which is the sign of the great ones) but we get on base from Walker. Our main problem is obvious: CLUTCH HITTING!!! I knew we were bad but watching the game last night they had a stat: Runner on 3rd w/ less then 2 outs..... The Cubs bat a measley .230! .230!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats horrendous. The Cards bat like .330. Thats why they are in first and we are dying. 


Also I was listening to the SCORE 670 this morning and they had a perfect statement: The Cubs are a bunch of talented INDIVIDUALS that do NOT make up a good TEAM. (Not sure if thats their EXACT words but it went something like that) This team is not going to do anything great this year unless they hit in the clutch and PRODUCE runs.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> 
> You ask and you shall receive. Now, I don't know if all of these guys would be considered "good" leadoff hitters, but they're all better leadoff hitters than either Walker or Grudz. Would I take them all over Walker as an all around player? No. But, as leadoff hitters, yes.
> ...


Hmmmph, interesting list. I guess it comes down to what one would want out of a leadoff hitter. The prototype, as some others have said, is 'slap hitter who gets on base and steals bases'. That would eliminate Stewart, Kotsay, Lawton, Podsednik, Izturis, and Kendall. Not because they are bad players but because they don't fit the prototype.

Pierre was awesome last year, Eckstein two years ago, and I'll admit that Womack with his .305BA/.354OBP/14SB is bringing it this year. Ichiro .369OBP with 21 SBs. Hairston .364OBP and 11 SBs. Crawford (one of my favorite MLBers) with a .337 OBP but insane 39 SBs. How many of these prototypical leadoff guys (with speed) are from teams playing over .500 ball?

Todd Walker has a .362OBP which falls right in line with the upper percentile of leadoff guys and he works the count. Definitely a guy you want up in the order, ideally a #2 guy. So what the heck am I saying here? <b>The prototypical leadoff guy is a dying breed in baseball</b>. The Cubs don't need to look hard for a slap hitter, they need to find a player who gets on base with high OBP. The Cubs are not in a position to (don't have the players) to play station to station smallball. However, they ARE in a position to have two guys at #1 and #2 who get on base regularly for the big boppers.

What sucks to me is that Walker has to split time with Grudz whereas I view Walkers as the superior hitter. I hope to God that Hendry can pull a deal for a decent SS but we'll see how things shake out. I have seen a bit too much of Jose Macias and Ramon Martinez the past few weeks for my taste. I would love to add another bat.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Hmmmph, interesting list. I guess it comes down to what one would want out of a leadoff hitter. The prototype, as some others have said, is 'slap hitter who gets on base and steals bases'. That would eliminate Stewart, Kotsay, Lawton, Podsednik, Izturis, and Kendall. Not because they are bad players but because they don't fit the prototype.
> ...


SD, I agree with everything you say here. You asked for a list of good leadoff hitters in the game right now and those are the best, but they're definitely not prototypical leadoff hitters. That's definitely a dying breed in this age of homers and no stolen bases. 

I said over and over again back in the winter that the one thing this team needed is a guy at the top who gets on base and steals bases...i.e. a leadoff hitter. That doesn't mean it needs to be a "slap-hitter" or a guy with ZERO power. I love Walker. Great #2 guy. The only thing he doesn't do is steal bases. In fact, we really have nobody who steals bases and can hit in the top of the order (Corey belongs at the 6 or 7 slot). He's been great and it's RIDICULOUS that his starting job has been taken away by Grudz. Dusty needs to wake up asap and put Walker back in the lineup before the playoffs are out of reach. Grudz played great for us last year, but Walker's a much better hitter and you can't leave that bat on the bench. That's just insane managing.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Agreed 100%. Ichiro is absolutely untouchable in Seattle and it boils down to more than just stats. Arguably you could stick a Carl Crawford or Posednik in there and get roughly the same baseball production. But Ichiro probably adds 50M a year above whatever the value of his contract is... though ticket sales, merchandise, advertising, both domestic and worldwide. That is near impossible to replace.
> ...


Tony Womack is one.....Posednik is another. Wow....two teams that have kicked our faces in.....must be coincidence.

The Heat are projecting Shaq will bring in 14 million in total revenue next year......wow so Ichiro can bring in 3.5 times what Shaq can?


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Hmmmph, interesting list. I guess it comes down to what one would want out of a leadoff hitter. The prototype, as some others have said, is 'slap hitter who gets on base and steals bases'. That would eliminate Stewart, Kotsay, Lawton, Podsednik, Izturis, and Kendall. Not because they are bad players but because they don't fit the prototype.
> ...


That's great that you feel that way....but with the exception of Eric Young (WHO SUCKS) all of those players are better leadoff hitters than "am I betting 1st or 5th" Grudzielanek.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

Walker is the perfect two hitter.....trade Patterson and extras for an Ichiro or Crawford or WHOEVER leads off with a high OBP and plays either center or short and put Walker at second. Bench Grudzielanek and we'll have what we had last year.....

Not small ball.....but two guys who get on base at 1 and 2, followed by the kind of power that is destined to kill you if you have to pitch to it with runners on base.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

latest and greatest....

1) Orlando Cabrera - ESPN's Jayson Stark says the Expos are asking for either Pie or Guzman in exchange for the underachieving SS

2) St. Paul Pioneer Press says there's no truth to the rumor that Minnesota would consider trading Christian Guzman to the Cubs for minor league prospects

3) Boston Globe reports:


> But it should be noted that the Sox and Cubs are continuing their on-again, off-again talks regarding shortstop Nomar Garciaparra. All parties involved appear to have conceded that the clubs are not going to be able to engage Arizona in a three-way deal that would send Garciaparra to Chicago, Cubs prospects to the desert, and the Big Unit to the Fens. But while it remains a long shot, the clubs have not entirely closed the window on a trade that would send Garciaparra to the Cubs for pitcher Matt Clement, with the Cubs requiring the Sox to take on shortstop Alex Gonzalez as well, for an economic balancing of the deal


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Yea and I think Stark mentiones that there is no way the Cubs would consider giving up Pie or Guzman for somebody who is hitting .239 with 4 homers right now. Kudos to Jim Hendry b/c Alex Gonzalez has better stats than that. Honestly, I'm not sure why we assigned Rey Ordonez. We got the bats if we play Walker instead of Grudz and nobody and I mean nobody plays a better shortstop that Rey-O.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>T.Shock</b>!
> Yea and I think Stark mentiones that there is no way the Cubs would consider giving up Pie or Guzman for somebody who is hitting .239 with 4 homers right now. Kudos to Jim Hendry b/c Alex Gonzalez has better stats than that. Honestly, I'm not sure why we assigned Rey Ordonez. We got the bats if we play Walker instead of Grudz and nobody and I mean nobody plays a better shortstop that Rey-O.


 If i was Hendry i would laugh in the expos face for even thinking that a Felix Pie for Orlando Cabrera straight up trade would be nuts, at 17 Pie was tearing up the minors like a pro, Pie is still puting up good numbers and is looking like an amazing up and comming player, i would not be surprised if Pie would become the cubs version of Miguel Cabrera. I dont see the Cubs giving up any of their top 5 prospects for Nomar,Johnson, let alone Cabrera.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

Gotta do Clement for Nomar:

1. Clement is a free agent who will command 10 mill+ per year. The Cubs aren't going to pay that. You can't put all your eggs in one basket like that. This move allows Matt to move on. We can go down the stretch with Rusch in Clements place. IF we make the playoffs you only use four starters in the playoffs anway so we'd go Zambrano, Prior, Maddux, Wood. Then next year we can bring Angel Guzman up in the five spot and we'll have him REALLY CHEAP so we can allot the money to replace Alou in left, IF we don't also bring up Pie.

2. Garciaparra is hitting .321. You put Patterson at leadoff, where you play him like he was played today (bunt single, stolen base) and Nomar batting second.

3. We get rid of Alex Gonzalez. God....between him and Martinez, SS is absolutely KILLING us. Gonzalez is TERRIBLE. When is HE gonna get BOOED.


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## bigdbucks (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> Gotta do Clement for Nomar:
> 
> 1. Clement is a free agent who will command 10 mill+ per year. The Cubs aren't going to pay that. You can't put all your eggs in one basket like that. This move allows Matt to move on. We can go down the stretch with Rusch in Clements place. IF we make the playoffs you only use four starters in the playoffs anway so we'd go Zambrano, Prior, Maddux, Wood. Then next year we can bring Angel Guzman up in the five spot and we'll have him REALLY CHEAP so we can allot the money to replace Alou in left, IF we don't also bring up Pie.
> ...


I absolutely agree 100%. It's pretty much a foregone conclusion Clement is gone after the year, which is OK if we keep our big 3 (Prior, Wood, Zambrano) together. We've also got up and coming pitchers from the minors (Guzman, Brownlie). I do believe Garciaparra is a FA also this offseason so if we do this deal he's gone also. I don't expect us to keep Alou next season either. So we will need replacements next season at SS and LF. (Where does Pie play? OF?) 

On a side note: I cannot wait for Sammy Sosa to get the hell outta town. The guy is uncoachable and not the superstar he once was.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bigdbucks</b>!
> 
> 
> (Where does Pie play? OF?)


yeah, he's an outfielder...


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>bigdbucks</b>!
> 
> 
> I absolutely agree 100%. It's pretty much a foregone conclusion Clement is gone after the year, which is OK if we keep our big 3 (Prior, Wood, Zambrano) together. We've also got up and coming pitchers from the minors (Guzman, Brownlie). I do believe Garciaparra is a FA also this offseason so if we do this deal he's gone also. I don't expect us to keep Alou next season either. So we will need replacements next season at SS and LF. (Where does Pie play? OF?)
> ...


I take issue with your Sosa comment......

Sosa is still better than most of the players on the team? "But he always swings for power and is always looking for the big hit."

Yes.....and he and Moises were doing the EXACT SAME THING LAST YEAR. Nothing Sammy is doing is any different from last year......BUT this year you have Patterson playing the same way. You have Grudz, Gonz, Martinez and Barrett thinking its ok for THEM to swing for the fences......doesn't work that way.

We can more than flourish with Sosa and Alou swinging for the fences......it becomes a problem when Alex Gonzalez goes up there looking to do the same thing. Aramis Ramirez and Derrick Lee do the little things at the plate and they are more talented than anyone besides Sosa and Alou. But Alex Gonzalez is allowed to swing for the fences......am I missing something? I didn't know that Gonzalez and Grudzielanek had combined for 900 HR (Sosa, Alou) and were now allowed to go up there looking to pull everything.

And remarkably....we got rid of Kenny Lofton cause "Corey Patterson was coming back." Patters NEVER strikes out, swings at bad pitches, or tries to pull balls he could drive to the opposite field. LOL he's 24 and he's not even better than Sosa at age 35. But he gets a free pass......why I have no idea.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

I take issue with you lumping Barrett in with AGonz, Martinez and co as free swingers who usually miss. I've been very impressed with Barrett every time I've gotten to see him. He has a decent eye and takes what the pitch gives him and makes solid contact. And we got him for peanuts. At least he's not an automatic out or double-play like Miller/Bako were/are.

Sosa really does stand about half a mile from the plate these days. Thankfully it looks like he's getting into a little bit of a groove.

as for the trade, I'd be really sad to see Clement go - the guy's been pitching like an all-star all year and has a freaking 8-9 record to show for it. But if we got Nomar back for him I'd be happy. Given our inconsistency at the plate, we really need to get a SS in here who isn't an automatic out. Rusch has been pretty solid this year, so I'd be OK with him stepping in as #5 as long as Prior's next start goes smoothly.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> Gotta do Clement for Nomar:
> 
> 1. Clement is a free agent who will command 10 mill+ per year. The Cubs aren't going to pay that. You can't put all your eggs in one basket like that. This move allows Matt to move on. We can go down the stretch with Rusch in Clements place. IF we make the playoffs you only use four starters in the playoffs anway so we'd go Zambrano, Prior, Maddux, Wood. Then next year we can bring Angel Guzman up in the five spot and we'll have him REALLY CHEAP so we can allot the money to replace Alou in left, IF we don't also bring up Pie.
> ...


I have a problem with trading Clement for Nomar cause nomar will be making a ton of money anyways next season if we keep him, alot more then Clement would be asking and Clement belive it or not has been our best pitcher this season by far, Hes been the most consistent hes a allstar caliber pitcher, just look at his run support if he got decent run support hes top 3 in the MLB in wins. Clement is very important, what if Wood or Prior go down again next year, i highly Doubt Ruch is gonna be a savior again.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

http://www.suntimes.com/output/cubs/cst-spt-kiley30.html

<b>GM Hendry closing in on Expos' Cabrera </b>


> With time shrinking before the non-waiver trade deadline at 3 p.m. Saturday, the Cubs would like the Expos to come to an agreement with them. While there is a vast difference in talent between Cabrera and Garciaparra, the Cubs are confident that Cabrera would have an impact on their stretch run toward the playoffs.
> 
> Expos general manager Omar Minaya apparently would take Cubs shortstop Alex Gonzalez in return for Cabrera, but Hendry clearly has put more than that on the table. Minaya needs to upgrade in many areas, and Hendry's probable offer of prospects should be too much for him to turn down in the end.
> 
> Hendry also continues to pursue relievers Ugueth Urbina of the Detroit Tigers and Jose Mesa of the Pittsburgh Pirates.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

I'm not the biggest Alex Gonzalez fan, but how much of an upgrade would Cabrera be? Can Cabrera at least steal bases? 

I saw that story a couple of posts up about Christian Guzman. I'm more of a Sox fan so if Hendry could pull something off for him, it might be helping both sides of town! Too bad the Cubs would absolutely have to knock the Twinkies socks off to pull that off.

Given your choice, who would you guys choose, Mesa or Urbina? I would lean towards Urbina myself.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

Wait, they'd take AGonz for Cabrera, but Hendry has put more than that on the table? If that's true, why? I have a hard time believing he'd give up a top prospect for Cabrera.

Also, can we get Endy Chavez thrown in on that deal, too?

And PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE NO JOSE MESA!!!


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> Wait, they'd take AGonz for Cabrera, but Hendry has put more than that on the table? If that's true, why? I have a hard time believing he'd give up a top prospect for Cabrera.
> 
> Also, can we get Endy Chavez thrown in on that deal, too?
> ...


Yeah I've heard different names thrown out there for Cabrera. The most realistic I've heard would be Brendan Harris in addition to AGonz. Perhaps a Sergio Mitre though he's actually a Hendry favorite and doing well since he got sent back down.

In regards to Cabrera, he bags 25 bases a year and puts the ball in play. He's sucked it up this year thats for sure, but as I've said in the past, he would be a nice catalyst to this team. Would probably bat .275 the rest of the way, steal 15 bases, and play better defense than AGonz.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Oh yeah forgot to mention that <i>both</i> Urbina and Mesa scare the heck out of me. Urbina is the preferable one, but there have been a lot of reports lately about him losing velocity on his arm. No bueno. Mesa scares me because, after all, he's Jose Mesa and he can't all of a sudden be a dependable closer, now can he?

If I had to choose one, I guess it'd be Urbina though I'd have to be scared off by those velocity reports.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

If the only options for bullpen help are Urbina and Mesa, I'd rather just stand pat and hope that Ryan Dempster is ready to help us in another few weeks. I'm nervous about relying on Latroy as the closer for the duration, but not any more nervous than I'd be with Urbina and Mesa taking the ball in the 9th.

If AGon and one of our less-coveted prospects can get us Cabrera, I'd do it. I'd like to see Clement stay with us and get us a few wins down the stretch, even though Nomar would be awfully nice to have in the lineup too.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

I'd with both of you as far as both Urbina and Mesa scaring me. I was hoping the Cubs would try Beltran in the closer's role because I think he's more suited for that than middle relief, but apparently the brass disagrees. All I know is I'd rather have Urbina than Latroy, as long as we don't have to give up a lot. But, with either of them, I'll be nervous. Damnit, if only Farnsworth weren't a headcase, we'd be set.

And I thought Dempster had shoulder surgery? Is he really expected to be back this year?


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> 
> 
> I have a problem with trading Clement for Nomar cause nomar will be making a ton of money anyways next season if we keep him, alot more then Clement would be asking and Clement belive it or not has been our best pitcher this season by far, Hes been the most consistent hes a allstar caliber pitcher, just look at his run support if he got decent run support hes top 3 in the MLB in wins. Clement is very important, what if Wood or Prior go down again next year, i highly Doubt Ruch is gonna be a savior again.


Well we've got four pretty good guys coming around. I'll take our pitching staff without Clement AND good hitting over our pitching staff with Clement and an automatic out at shortstop any day.

Cubs won't worry about money. The deal would include Gonzo too so they'd shed 12 mill in salary. Alou and 9 more mill come off the books at seasons end. But even if they HAVE that money.....you can't dump it into Matt Clement. What are you gonna do? Be paying five pitchers 10 million a piece in a few years??


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Prior gave up 6 runs in under 5 innings today.

remember the good old days when it was almost a certainty that Prior wouldn't give up more than 3 runs in the 7-8 innings he pitched? :sigh: Lately he's as inconsistent as the offense. I hope it's just a little slump and rustiness from his layoffs. Looking at the box score, he didn't induce ANY ground balls and gave up FOUR home runs. Sounds like he couldn't locate his fastball and his breaking pitches hung up in the strike zone.


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> Prior gave up 6 runs in under 5 innings today.
> 
> remember the good old days when it was almost a certainty that Prior wouldn't give up more than 3 runs in the 7-8 innings he pitched? :sigh: Lately he's as inconsistent as the offense. I hope it's just a little slump and rustiness from his layoffs. Looking at the box score, he didn't induce ANY ground balls and gave up FOUR home runs. Sounds like he couldn't locate his fastball and his breaking pitches hung up in the strike zone.


Uhhhh the ball park is live today......today Wrigley is as much of an offensive park as Coors


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>LB26matrixns</b>!
> 
> 
> Uhhhh the ball park is live today......today Wrigley is as much of an offensive park as Coors


yeah, I wrote that post before the Cubs ran off 5 runs in the 6th. Even so, Prior's stuff must not have been breaking out of the zone like it should if he couldn't induce any ground balls AND gave up 4 HRs.

I'm probably more worried about it than necessary though. These things happen in Wrigley.


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## Lets_Play_2 (Jan 22, 2004)

Time to get just a little bit radical here (but it's probably too late to pull it off with the trade deadline 07.31.2004)......

*Trade Clement (a top drawer 2-3 RH pitcher in almost any other club's rotation) for mibor league position prospects from one of the other AL contenders*.

Think about it - we could use another minor league OF prospect, or certainly a upper level minor league SS, 2B, or C prospect.

A quality front line RHP (even going into UFA status) to a contender in the AL could bring a pretty (extremely) fine return, since it's unlikely we are going to be able to bring Clement back with a new contract (not at $10m+ per yr).

Besides, if you get BA, you know that the Cubbies may be one of the top 3 pitching rich minor league systems, and as the saying goes, "the rich get richer".

Check out the latest BA where they talk about Bobbie Brownlie (RHP), Angel Guzman (RHP), Justin Jones (LHP), Luke Hagerty (LHP), and now, 22 year old Renyel Pinto (LHP).

Also, Ryan Dempster is about 2 weeks from being back (He's at Iowa AAA right now).

The only blemish on the horizon is that Chad Blasko (RHP) apparently has a shoulder problem.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

1.Prior will be fine, it's hard to pitch especially at Wrigley on a day like yesterday when ur out for two months, back for three weeks, out for a month, back for a week, out for a week, and then back. 

2.I wouldn't be against dealing Clement for a high-level position prospect especially since Rusch was doing very well in the time he saw, but not sure how many teams will give up a good prospect for a free agent to be.


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## bigdbucks (Jun 7, 2002)

It was just reported on the SCORE 670 that Boston said if the Cubs wanted Garciaparra they would have to sweeten the pot. I highly doubt a trade will occur if Matt Clement is on the mound against the Phillies. 

Cabrera to the Cubs also looks dead because the Expos want Pie or Guzman in a deal. The reporter also said that the Cubs are looking into relievers and that Ryan Dempster will be called up tomorrow from AAA Iowa. Dempster=closing? 

Whatever the case may be Clement will not be w/ the team next year and Dempster could be a possible replacement imo


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

if Clement starts the game today VS the phillies he will be a cubs the rest of the year, if he does not start then it looks like Garciapara will be a Cub... we'll know a lot in a few hours...


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

It looks like Clement started and we got Garciaparra. There is another thread on this but still wow...apparently the other principles involved were Orlando Cabrera and Doug Mientiekwicz(Spelling?...not that it matters)...apparently we got Dougie M too....


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

twins get: prospects

cubs get: nomar

red sox get: doug, cabrera

expos get: gonzalez and a prospect


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

1st game with Nomar this is the lineup:

Patterson
Nomar
Alou
Sosa
Ramirez
Lee
Grudz
Bako
Maddux

I'm a little surprised by Patterson going to the #1 spot, and Sosa being switched from #3 to #4... i hate it when Maddux pitches because we have another automatic out in the lineup in Paul Bako....

this is the lineup I want to see:

Walker
Nomar
Sosa
Ramirez
Alou
Lee
Patterson
Barrett
Pitcher


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

These are our free agent.... how many of these guys do you think we can keep? If some way some how we can keep the following I would be extatic-->Nomar, Clement, and one of our second baseman.... I doubt we extend Alou...

here's our full list:

Hollandsworth
Walker
Grudz (team option)
Clement
Mercker
Alou (team option)
Garciaparra
Martinez
Bako
Rusch
Macias
Goodwin


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> These are our free agent.... how many of these guys do you think we can keep? If some way some how we can keep the following I would be extatic-->Nomar, Clement, and one of our second baseman.... I doubt we extend Alou...
> 
> here's our full list:
> ...


Hmmmmm my guess would be that we'll see if Hollandsworth can play left in case we don't bring back Alou which we won't do unless he accepts something along the lines of a 2 or 3 year deal around 9-12 mil. I think Walker will be back since we traded Brendan Harris and we'll hang onto Grudz for late game situations. Clement will be gone but I think we'll re-sign Rusch hoping that he can hold it down until Guzman either comes up to the big club or gets in a groove. If Maddux is back, Bako will be back at well and since Maddux hasn't shown signs of slowing down and Clemens is still going at 41, Bako will be back. Macias prolly won't. And that brings us to Nomar. Word is he wants something along the lines of 5 for 70, which I'm not sure I'd give him. 

So to summarize

Hollandsworth - BACK
Walker - BACK
Grudz (team option) - BACK
Clement - GONE
Mercker - GONE
Alou (team option) - GONE
Garciaparra - GONE
Martinez - BACK
Bako - BACK
Rusch - BACK
Macias - GONE
Goodwin - GONE

I'd be looking at something like this next year

1.Corey Patterson(CF)
2.Todd Hollandsworth(LF)
3.Sammy Sosa(RF)
4.Aramis Ramirez(3B)
5.Derrek Lee(1B)
6.Michael Barrett(C)
7.Orlando Cabrera(SS)
8.Todd Walker(2B0

Paul Bako(C)
Mark Grudzilanek(2B)
Ramon Marinez(SS/3B)

Kerry Wood
Mark Prior
Carlos Zambrano
Greg Maddux
Glendon Rusch

Ryan Dempster
Mike Remlinger
Kyle Farnsworth
LaTroy Hawkins


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> this is the lineup I want to see:
> 
> Walker
> ...


Not bad HAWK23. Its pretty hilarious the stuff I was hearing on 670 last night about shaking up the lineup, moving Sosa to 6 or 7, and the general idiocy from bandwagon Cub fans and non-Cub fans alike. IMO you absolutely keep Sosa at #3. If Sosa slides anyplace past cleanup, I will be pretty pissed off at Dusty.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> 
> 
> Not bad HAWK23. Its pretty hilarious the stuff I was hearing on 670 last night about shaking up the lineup, moving Sosa to 6 or 7, and the general idiocy from bandwagon Cub fans and non-Cub fans alike. IMO you absolutely keep Sosa at #3. If Sosa slides anyplace past cleanup, I will be pretty pissed off at Dusty.


yeah, if Patterson continues to do what he did in the #1 spot though I like him there:

Patterson
Nomar
Sosa
Ramirez
Alou
Lee
Walker
Barrett
Pitcher

one thing is for sure.... the 2-6 spot should ALWAYS be:

Nomar
Sosa
Ramirez
Alou
Lee

there is no other way to do it unless you want to flip-flop Alou and Ramirez....


and T-Shock, I think we have a better chance to keep Clement than what you think, he loves Larry Rothschild and often praises him for saving his career, plus I think he likes it here and may take a reasonable offer. As for Nomar... there is no question we have the money to sign him, he just needs to get high on Wrigley Field and Chicago and hope he has a great experience... he looked like he was loving it on Sunday... we have the cash to keep everyone.... this is what I would hope we would be able to do:

Hollandsworth - BACK
Walker - BACK
Grudz (team option) - GONE (we won't pick it up, we need the cash)
Clement - BACK
Mercker - GONE
Alou (team option) - GONE
Garciaparra - BACK
Martinez - BACK
Bako - BACK
Rusch - GONE (someone will offer him starting rotation type money)
Macias - GONE
Goodwin - GONE (RETIRE)


CF-Patterson
SS-Nomar
RF-Sosa
3B-Ramirez
LF-Hollandsworth
1B-Lee
2B-Walker
C-Barrett
Pitcher

(notice there is more balance with lefty/righty in that lineup too)

Plus we have Pie who maybe can take over for LF if we can't resign hollandsworth....

point is we have enough money to resign Clement AND Nomar... I think it's basically whether or not they want to play for us, I think Clement does, I think Nomar will want to, especially if we make the playoffs.



P.S. I agree with your assumption that if we don't resogn Nomar we will grab Cabrera... he was a Cub minutes before the deadline until Boston came in and were willing to give us Nomar...

at least we know Hendry likes Cabrera... we will have one of them next year...


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> 
> 
> yeah, if Patterson continues to do what he did in the #1 spot though I like him there:
> ...


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> 
> 
> yeah, if Patterson continues to do what he did in the #1 spot though I like him there:
> ...


Just a question do you think if we don't re-sign Alou, that Hollandsworth will be a productive everyday player. He's done it off the bench and when he filled in for Sosa this year so far. He seems to really like playing in Chicago and I think that he could experience a career year next year if we play him every day and hit him 5th ahead of Lee and behind Ramirez. And I'm with you on Clement and Nomar. I think it'll boil down to Clement or Rusch and Nomar or Cabrera.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>T.Shock</b>!
> 
> 
> Just a question do you think if we don't re-sign Alou, that Hollandsworth will be a productive everyday player. He's done it off the bench and when he filled in for Sosa this year so far. He seems to really like playing in Chicago and I think that he could experience a career year next year if we play him every day and hit him 5th ahead of Lee and behind Ramirez. And I'm with you on Clement and Nomar. I think it'll boil down to Clement or Rusch and Nomar or Cabrera.


I think Hollandsworth can be an effective every day player...he played almost every day for a long period of time, and was extended into everyday playing when we went to the AL... I think he could do it, and it's well worth giving him a try to save money to keep Nomar and Clement... if Hendry has doubts I guess he could always go and get Carl Everrett or another decent outfielder in the offseason... by the way when is Hollandsworth and Borowski coming back? Those are our last 2 players on the DL correct?


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> 
> 
> I think Hollandsworth can be an effective every day player...he played almost every day for a long period of time, and was extended into everyday playing when we went to the AL... I think he could do it, and it's well worth giving him a try to save money to keep Nomar and Clement... if Hendry has doubts I guess he could always go and get Carl Everrett or another decent outfielder in the offseason... by the way when is Hollandsworth and Borowski coming back? Those are our last 2 players on the DL correct?


Yea I believe so. Last I heard Hollandsworth should be back within the next couple of weeks, but I haven't heard anything on Borowski and that with his dropping velocity and subpar performance makes me think that its possible Joe isn't injured, but "cleaning up" so to speak...


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

<b>Cubs News and Notes: </b> 
(non-Nomar related)

- Richard Lewis (acquired in the Pratt-Cruz deal) could verywell be the Cubs starting 2B next season. At AA West Tenn, 329/391/532 (923 OPS) with 10 HRs and 59 RBIs. Top three in Southern League in double, triples, OBP, and more. He has a nice OBP, good speed on the bases (had 19 SB for AA affiliate w/ Braves), and plays above average defensively at 2B. 24 years old. Promoted to triple-A yesterday.

- Reynel Pinto has a ridiculous 149K through 116 inning in West Tenn. 9-7 3.33ERA the only issue being 59BB. Could he emergence this year have made Hendry more willing to deal J. Jones?

- Cubs 11-4 in last 15 games and have won 8 of 10

- Since being moved to leadoff, and ahead of Nomar... Corey Patterson is 7 for 17, .473 OBP, and 3 SB.. not bad Corey!! 

- last Nomar-related note: looks pretty damn good in the Cubs lineup eh?


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>superdave</b>!
> <b>Cubs News and Notes: </b>
> (non-Nomar related)
> 
> ...


I knew about Lewis but before this year he was just an utility guy, but never heard about Pinto. Glad to hear he's coming along. And yea we've looked good, don't forget we played a brutal schedule in June and July and we finally are healthy and added Nomar. I still don't think they have the bullpen to win the Series (OR THE MENTALITY TO BREAK THE CURSE), but I think they'll make it to the NLCS as long as we don't lose to the Cards I'll be happy.


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