# Tex Winter : Shaq was the least receptive to coaching



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

> He said Jordan welcomed coaching, but other superstars turn a deaf ear. Of all the stars, Winter said O'Neal was the least receptive.
> 
> "He doesn't want to hear it," Winter said of O'Neal. "He is not the least bit interested but he could be so much better."


Triangle keeps Tex Winter in the best circles


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## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

Bravo Winter for speaking the truth. 

:jump:


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

dont let ESPN get a hold of this...

they'll completely ignore it...Shaq-good...Kobe-evil


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## djtoneblaze (Nov 22, 2004)

LOL @ Tex Winter crying.


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## Jester (Feb 7, 2005)

According to Phil's book, Tex and Shaq have had some pretty heated "discussions." Tex apparently loves to be critical of Shaq's free-throw shooting to his face. During a video session, Winter was about to go blows with Shaq. :clap:


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## sherwin (Mar 21, 2005)

Damn, I was reading the article right now and about to post this thread. You beat me 



> He said Jordan welcomed coaching, but other superstars turn a deaf ear. Of all the stars, Winter said O'Neal was the least receptive.
> 
> "He doesn't want to hear it," Winter said of O'Neal. "He is not the least bit interested but he could be so much better."
> 
> ...


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## clien (Jun 2, 2005)

Jester said:


> According to Phil's book, Tex and Shaq have had some pretty heated "discussions." Tex apparently loves to be critical of Shaq's free-throw shooting to his face. During a video session, Winter was about to go blows with Shaq. :clap:


yeah^ I think that was about Shaq defending the screen n roll, but yeah Winter was very critical of Shaqs work ethic, and effort, on D especially


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

> He said Manu Ginobili is the league's most exciting player and that Dwyane Wade is the best all-around guard. "He reminds me a lot of Jordan," he said.


Why did he say this? I can hear the arguements now, "D. Wade is better than Kobe/McGrady/LeBron combined!"...why? "Tex Winters who BTW coached Jordan said, He reminds me a lot of Jordan."

Way to go Tex....let the flood gates *re*open! :curse: :nonono:


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Wade is arguably the most exciting player in the NBA, and I can't fake, he does remind me alot of Jordan.


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

Was he talking about Wade or Ginobli ? I took it as Ginobli or possibly both


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

IV said:


> Wade is arguably the most exciting player in the NBA, and I can't fake, he does remind me alot of Jordan.


so does every young talented gaurd thats comes in the league.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

The One said:


> so does every young talented gaurd thats comes in the league.


Not to me, there are a few that really stand out. Iverson used to remind me of Mike, just because of how unstoppable a scorer he was(nothing more). As a rookie, Vince reminded me of Mike when he dunked the ball, but his slam style has overshadowed Jordan's dunking, IMO. Kobe had the floor game that most reminded me of MJ, all around, and now Wade seemed to have that same fashion about him.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

IV said:


> Not to me, there are a few that really stand out. Iverson used to remind me of Mike, just because of how unstoppable a scorer he was(nothing more). As a rookie, Vince reminded me of Mike when he dunked the ball, but his slam style has overshadowed Jordan's dunking, IMO. Kobe had the floor game that most reminded me of MJ, all around, and now Wade seemed to have that same fashion about him.


don't forget Lebron. All I'm saying is that if a young player is capable of scoring 30ppg and makes a couple of clutch players, the first thing that the media is going to hype up is that they look like Jordan.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

The One said:


> don't forget Lebron. All I'm saying is that if a young player is capable of scoring 30ppg and makes a couple of clutch players, the first thing that the media is going to hype up is that they look like Jordan.


I know what you mean. Alot of players get compared to MJ for various reasons, most undeserving. Lebron to me, is a bread of his own. I think he's the future of this sport.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

No surprise here. Tex has always been very critical of Shaq. Seems to have something personal against him from the very beginning.


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## 23 (Apr 23, 2005)

In L.A., Jackson, Shaquille O’Neal and Kobe Bryant used the offense en route to three straight titles from 2001-03 with a very different team than had dominated in Chicago.

*“The center is the apex of the triangle,” Winter says. *“With the Bulls, we utilized centers such as (Bill) Cartwright, (Luc) Longley and (Bill) Wennington in a different way than we did Shaq. Because of his overpowering physical abilities, we just tried to get the ball in to Shaq a lot, then spaced his teammates and let him either fan the ball back out or go to the basket.


Winter is disappointed with, but not surprised by, the fall of the Lakers this season.

“Phil committed to Shaq, understandably, over Kobe, and that was one of the real problems Kobe had a hard time dealing with,” Winter says. “He wants to be considered the best player ever to play the game. I don’t think it’s going to happen, but that’s his motivation. He needs to grow up. He needs to understand there are an awful lot of good players out there, and he’s one of them, but not the one, necessarily.”


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

23 said:


> In L.A., Jackson, Shaquille O’Neal and Kobe Bryant used the offense en route to three straight titles from 2001-03 with a very different team than had dominated in Chicago.
> 
> *“The center is the apex of the triangle,” Winter says. *“With the Bulls, we utilized centers such as (Bill) Cartwright, (Luc) Longley and (Bill) Wennington in a different way than we did Shaq. Because of his overpowering physical abilities, we just tried to get the ball in to Shaq a lot, then spaced his teammates and let him either fan the ball back out or go to the basket.
> 
> ...



and?


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

Jester said:


> During a video session, Winter was about to go blows with Shaq. :clap:




:laugh:


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

SPMJ said:


> No surprise here. Tex has always been very critical of Shaq. Seems to have something personal against him from the very beginning.


What could Tex possibly have against Shaq from the beginning? Maybe, as a coach, he just had a problem having an uncoachable player.


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## 23 (Apr 23, 2005)

kflo said:


> and?



Tex had issues with both players. I remember him telling Kobe he playes stupidly


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

It's pretty obvious to anyone living in reality. Shaq is worse than Kobe at all the things that Kobe gets ripped for. Shaq has the biggest ego in basketball, he thinks he is the best player ever, and is doing things his way or not at all, uncoachable.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It's pretty obvious to anyone living in reality. Shaq is worse than Kobe at all the things that Kobe gets ripped for. Shaq has the biggest ego in basketball, he thinks he is the best player ever, and is doing things his way or not at all, uncoachable.


Blasphemy!


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

:laugh:


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It's pretty obvious to anyone living in reality. Shaq is worse than Kobe at all the things that Kobe gets ripped for. Shaq has the biggest ego in basketball, he thinks he is the best player ever, and is doing things his way or not at all, uncoachable.


The reason Shaq gets away with it, is because he can. When you are the best player in the league for a good 5 to 6 year stretch, even when you are woefully out of shape, you tend to get a little cocky.

Who cares if Shaq has a huge ego? He has backed it up everywhere he's been.

Kobe wants to be the best basketball player ever, but won't.
Shaq wants to be the best basketball player ever, and can come awfully close.

Tex Winter is always complaining about someone. There's a reason he has never been a headcoach for all his supposed brilliance. He has no understanding of superstar level players.

He's good with Phil, but he'd fail miserably if he ever had to be a head coach anywhere in the league.


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## ApheLion02 (Aug 5, 2005)

They both had ungovernable egos, just Shaq was smarter about it. Shaq knew that he couldn't best MJ, so he had to invent titles like Most Dominant Ever, Shogun, Last True Center, and all that ****. But he never had the guts to claim he was the GOAT. Kobe never even talks about it, but you can tell from his demeanor and leaks from those close to him that he takes his legacy very much to heart. How Phil managed to keep them together for as long as he did, I have no idea.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Who cares if Shaq has a huge ego? He has backed it up everywhere he's been.


Yeah, all those title promises in the past 3 years have come through real big. 

And Kobe has backed it up everywhere he has been, except the one year he didn't have a top 10 player by his side, which is something Shaq has never been without. Not quite the even playing field.


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

Well in Truth No Center or Big man can Compete Skill or Talent Wise with a Foward or Guard . Fowards & Guards or Always better Basketball players , just not that important since theres a lot of them to Dilute the Market & Big men or Rare & I'm not even talking about the Skill & Talent yet just the fact theres more Swings then Bigs , But the Swings or also better then the Bigs . For the Most part if your Not Jordan you need a Bigman (Besides Jordan had Grant & Rodman) to be good , but it has always been a Guards game . Even though it's starting to Switch to a Foward game


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Yeah, all those title promises in the past 3 years have come through real big.
> 
> And Kobe has backed it up everywhere he has been, except the one year he didn't have a top 10 player by his side, which is something Shaq has never been without. Not quite the even playing field.


Sir you are about to open up a discussion that will last forever! Due to ESPN and the media's fascination with Shaq and hatred for Kobe this arguement will alway favor Shaq in fans eyes.



ApheLion02 said:


> Kobe never even talks about it, but you can tell from his demeanor and leaks from those close to him that he takes his legacy very much to heart.


You know I hear the same rumors when it comes to Lindsay Lohan, J-LO, Brittany Spears, etc..! Rumors are for girls! Get some facts! BTW, you don't think every player in the league has similar dreams?


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

Rumors shouldnt be for girls either they should be for No one , Actully Baseless Rumors should be a Crime I always felt do to all the Problems they Caused . Not sure the Severity Misdominor or Felony but it should be a Crime


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## jhammer22 (Jul 29, 2005)

ApheLion02 said:


> They both had ungovernable egos, just *Shaq was smarter *about it. Shaq knew that he couldn't best MJ, so he had to invent titles like Most Dominant Ever, Shogun, Last True Center, and all that ****. But he never had the guts to claim he was the GOAT. Kobe never even talks about it, but you can tell from his demeanor and leaks from those close to him that he takes his legacy very much to heart. How Phil managed to keep them together for as long as he did, I have no idea.


hehe ... I just laugh to myself when Shaq and the word smarter are in the same sentence. :biggrin:


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

ralaw said:


> Sir you are about to open up a discussion that will last forever! Due to ESPN and the media's fascination with Shaq and hatred for Kobe this arguement will alway favor Shaq in fans eyes.


I'll also get called a Lakers fan atleast once I'm guessing. Since I guess only Lakers fans can see through Shaq's transparency? I have more faith in all the other fanbases than that, afterall, I am a Bulls fan and it's pretty obvious to me.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I'll also get called a Lakers fan atleast once I'm guessing. Since I guess only Lakers fans can see through Shaq's transparency? I have more faith in all the other fanbases than that, afterall, I am a Bulls fan and it's pretty obvious to me.



You're a Kobe fan. You like the Lakers like I like the Cavs.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> You're a Kobe fan. You like the Lakers like I like the Cavs.


No, I like the Spurs like you like the Cavs.


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## djtoneblaze (Nov 22, 2004)

IV said:


> What could Tex possibly have against Shaq from the beginning? Maybe, as a coach, he just had a problem having an uncoachable player.


Maybe he didn't like Shaq before he ever coached him.

You know, it IS possible for people to have predetermined notions of people they've never met... like on this site.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

of course to lakers fans when tex says shaq is the least receptive he is telling the truth from a offensive genius coachs perspective, but when he says Dwade is the best all around guard in the nba he is certainly not telling the truth. Lakers fans cant have it both ways. You cant call the man a genuis when he says shaq is lazy and then a dummy when he says dwade is the best guard in the league


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> of course to lakers fans when tex says shaq is the least receptive he is telling the truth from a offensive genius coachs perspective, but when he says Dwade is the best all around guard in the nba he is certainly not telling the truth. Lakers fans cant have it both ways. You cant call the man a genuis when he says shaq is lazy and then a dummy when he says dwade is the best guard in the league


Why not? 

Its hard for me to have an opinion on Shaq's willingness to listen to coaching due to the fact I never coached him, talked to someone who coached him or seen him coached in person!

As for the Wade comment ....everyone has their opinion! To each's own! However, in my opinion Wade's style of play is similar to a *young * Jordan, but this does not mean he is the next great thing......it's just his style! Style of play does not equal similar success!


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> of course to lakers fans when tex says shaq is the least receptive he is telling the truth from a offensive genius coachs perspective, but when he says Dwade is the best all around guard in the nba he is certainly not telling the truth. Lakers fans cant have it both ways. You cant call the man a genuis when he says shaq is lazy and then a dummy when he says dwade is the best guard in the league


Funny you should say that. When I first read this, I wondered how Heat fans would try to spin it. On one hand, you have Tex Winters calling Shaq the most uncoachable player he's ever seen. On the other hand, you have him calling Wade the best all-around guard in the game.

Those are two very opposing, extreme opinions on the Heat's best two players.

What's your opinion on this matter?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

is tex in a better position to comment on shaq's coachability, or whether wade is the best all-around guard in the league? he's commenting on shaq based on his personal experience. he's commenting on wade based on what he's watching on tv, along with the rest of us. it's not a case of tex being a genius on both, it's a case of where his opinion may carry more weight.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

Spriggan said:


> Funny you should say that. When I first read this, I wondered how Heat fans would try to spin it. On one hand, you have Tex Winters calling Shaq the most uncoachable player he's ever seen. On the other hand, you have him calling Wade the best all-around guard in the game.
> 
> Those are two very opposing, extreme opinions on the Heat's best two players.
> 
> What's your opinion on this matter?


can shaq be better than he is if he was in better shape and more receptive to coaching????- Of course he could. But 3 championships and winning every year is good enough. 

and wade I feel thats his own opinion. I feel he is on the verge of being the best all around guard, but needs to add that jumpshot a little better first. I feel he may very well be the best next season. Depends on that jumper

laker fans always say how smart this guy is and how he is the best offensive mind ever. So maybe when he says Wade is the best guard they may realize that wade is very close if not as good as kobe already. And everyone knows shaq could be better. Being one of the best centers when he could of been THE best ever


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

kflo said:


> is tex in a better position to comment on shaq's coachability, or whether wade is the best all-around guard in the league? he's commenting on shaq based on his personal experience. he's commenting on wade based on what he's watching on tv, along with the rest of us. it's not a case of tex being a genius on both, it's a case of where his opinion may carry more weight.


he also coached kobe. Maybe he thinks wade is better than Kobe from his years of coaching Kobe?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

again, should i put greater credibility in his ability to judge shaq's coachability, or in wade's place in the league at guard? 

and he coached kobe, but never coached wade. it's not like he can compare them based on having coached them both.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

tex isn't the gospel on anything. he has some insights, and he's got his biases. take it all with grains of salt. 

the interesting thing in this though, is that you've got someone within the laker circle who's not pointing the finger at kobe, but pointing it at shaq. point being, kobe wasn't necessarily at fault for all things bad in la.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

hmmm....Winters is about to be employed by LA again. Of course he cant point the finger at Kobe. Talking about biases, that is one right there


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

kflo said:


> the interesting thing in this though, is that you've got someone within the laker circle who's not pointing the finger at kobe, but pointing it at shaq. point being, kobe wasn't necessarily at fault for all things bad in la.



I'm not sure Tex is "pointing the finger at Shaq" for the breakup of the Lakers, or the losses, or the feud. He's just saying he didn't like the triangle.


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## ApheLion02 (Aug 5, 2005)

ralaw said:


> You know I hear the same rumors when it comes to Lindsay Lohan, J-LO, Brittany Spears, etc..! Rumors are for girls! Get some facts! BTW, you don't think every player in the league has similar dreams?


1) If you insist on simply collecting *facts*, then you'll find that what you can know for certain in this world is very limited. Most of what you take for granted in this world is always based on a certain amount of hearsay, "common knowledge", etc. Rumors are, of course, not reliable, but thats no reason to dismiss them entirely. I believe they either hold a seed of truth or tell you something about the person who fabricated them. It is up to you evaluate them and see if they fit into what you experience and judge accordingly. Me, I hear these rumors, see Kobe's demeanor in interviews and on the court, and decide that some of them probably have merit, or at least indicate something about his character. They may not be 100% accurate, and I do not expect everyone to reach my conclusions, but they are not *baseless*. They simply rely on my assumptions and my train of thought. If you don't agree with, I expect you to as least respect that.

2)I should have worded myself more clearly. I have no problem with dreams or aspirations, but from what I see, Kobe thinks he can somehow _*manufacture* _ the result from carefully chosen words to the media, not shooting in a ball game, etc. I hear people say he imitates MJ, but I don't see that myself so I am not using that argument. The rumors however, that Kobe used to let his HS team fall behind so he can be the hero in the comeback however, tells me two things: its either true, or someone who some what knows him found a plausible explanation to coincidental events. Either way, it brings me back to my original point, that he is arrogant, and is concerned with PR and his legacy to the point of artifice and deception.


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

Interesting....


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## clien (Jun 2, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> of course to lakers fans when tex says shaq is the least receptive he is telling the truth from a offensive genius coachs perspective, but when he says Dwade is the best all around guard in the nba he is certainly not telling the truth. Lakers fans cant have it both ways. You cant call the man a genuis when he says shaq is lazy and then a dummy when he says dwade is the best guard in the league


shaq is lazy - try argueing against it...
Dwayne Wade is not the best all-around guard - and i dont even think tex said he was, he said wade reminded him of jordan,, but if tex did say dwayne is the best guard I respectully disagree...and will gladly laugh and make fun of anyone who says dwayne wade is the best guard in the league...i respect peoples opinions but i dont have to agree w/ 'em


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> hmmm....Winters is about to be employed by LA again. Of course he cant point the finger at Kobe. Talking about biases, that is one right there


Not really. He basically called Wade a better player than Kobe, so I don't really think he's worried about hurting Kobe's feelings.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

clien said:


> shaq is lazy - try argueing against it...
> Dwayne Wade is not the best all-around guard - and i dont even think tex said he was, he said wade reminded him of jordan


reading comprehension. Cmon now. It was even quoted


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

....forget about Wade

can we get back to bashing Shaq please


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

Shaq's a lazy SOB whose ego was as big as his stomach...but he's smart

See, some people made light of how he was willing to Wade shine this past season but didn;t allow KObe to...I disagree; Kobe shined about as much you could playing with another top 5 player. Thats difference between his relationship with Penny compared to Kobe....

...Shaq was perfectly fine with Kobe dropping 40 on the Spurs and getting the acclaim...what he didn't like was that managment looked at Kobe as more valuable than him. His ego wouldnt allow that to happen. Why else with 3 yes THREE years left on his deal; he would publicly and privately ***** about an extension....cause Kobe was about become a free agent. Asking for an extension is the easiest way to find out who's more important..him or Kobe

see, in Miami he doesn't have to worry about that...he's the biggest reason this team has a national following..so he knows they're gonna keep him


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## kawika (May 7, 2003)

Does anybody else think the whole Tex/Shaq thing is just pretty damn funny? Maybe Shaq's not the most receptive to coaching (though honestly I'm not _really_ sure how true that is) and "could have been so much better", but as has been asked, than who? I mean, let's say I'm Shaq, many years before I ever played for Tex Winter, I was averaging 29/13 in the NBA. As a 21 year old. Being coached by Brian Hill. 

I'm sure he felt professionally threatened every time assistant coach Tex Winter chewed his *** out for not doing what Tex thought he ought to.  

On the other hand, though, Tex is someone who's just not going to take **** from anybody. Remember, he's like 83 years old. He was a navy pilot in WWII. He developed the triangle. He's been in coaching over 50 years. Unless you're kept around as somekind of 'consultant'/figurehead guy, and I'm assuming Tex is still actually getting in there and coaching, this pretty much means you're more than likely to be one tough SOB yourself. Here's this 80 year old guy that's going to physically go after Shaq. And mean it. 

I'm just amazed they didn't always get along. :bsmile:


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## AirJay (Aug 5, 2005)

Diophantos said:


> I'm not sure Tex is "pointing the finger at Shaq" for the breakup of the Lakers, or the losses, or the feud. He's just saying he didn't like the triangle.


and to add to this point, michael jordan hated the triangle too. Absolutely hated it...yet the bulls still won 6 championships and no one is pointing fingers at him for breaking up the bulls.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

tone wone said:


> Shaq's a lazy SOB whose ego was as big as his stomach...but he's smart
> 
> See, some people made light of how he was willing to Wade shine this past season but didn;t allow KObe to...I disagree; Kobe shined about as much you could playing with another top 5 player. Thats difference between his relationship with Penny compared to Kobe....
> 
> ...


Exactly right..and he also knows that while in Miami, even though he said that it is Wade's team, there is noway that Wade can become more popular in Miami than Shaq. Shaq is their savior..their Messiah.


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

AirJay said:


> and to add to this point, michael jordan hated the triangle too. Absolutely hated it...yet the bulls still won 6 championships and no one is pointing fingers at him for breaking up the bulls.


Exactly. Shaq obviously played in the triangle and successfully adapted his game to it. No star player likes an offense that doesn't involve giving them the ball every time. Jordan, Shaq, etc. were examples. The triangle works not because it makes star players better or because star players like it (it doesn't, and they don't). It works because it makes role players better--guys like Steve Kerr and Ron Harper and Robert Horry and Derek Fisher. What was it Phil said to Jordan when he complained about the triangle? "I don't run the offense for you Michael. I run it for the other guys."

So is anyone really surprised that Shaq didn't like the triangle, seeing as Jordan (one of the few people with a comparable level of dominance at his position) didn't like it either? Both adapted their games to it and won with it, but is it a shocking development that they weren't crazy about it taking their touches away? 'Cause that's all Tex is saying in that quote.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Kobe probably threatened Tex and forced him to say this about Shaq.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

SPMJ said:


> No surprise here. Tex has always been very critical of Shaq. Seems to have something personal against him from the very beginning.


Not really. Winter has always told it exactly the way he sees things, no sugar coating. Since, well, forever. 



futuristxen said:


> Kobe wants to be the best basketball player ever, but won't.
> Shaq wants to be the best basketball player ever, and can come awfully close.


Oh futur, still on the sad vendetta. Kobe will never come close to being the best player ever, but neither will Shaq and it's not debatable. At best he'll be a top 10 player of all time. Winning more championships will not make him any greater of a player, greatness is supposed to be defined by how good of a player you are, not how good your teammates are. 



futuristxen said:


> Tex Winter is always complaining about someone. There's a reason he has never been a headcoach for all his supposed brilliance. He has no understanding of superstar level players.


Winter rarely "complains", at least not more than any other great all time head coach (Phil, Larry, Pop, Red, etc.). 



Sir Patchwork said:


> No, I like the Spurs like you like the Cavs.


That's not really comparable Patchwork, futuristxen is a Cavs fan only because of LeBron James.



wadeshaqeddie said:


> of course to lakers fans when tex says shaq is the least receptive he is telling the truth from a offensive genius coachs perspective, but when he says Dwade is the best all around guard in the nba he is certainly not telling the truth.


In his best season, DWade proved he has a very comparable all around game to Kobe. I don't see any problem with calling him the best all around guard in the NBA, Winters has a very good point, even if it is arguable (as most close matches are).



wadeshaqeddie said:


> can shaq be better than he is if he was in better shape and more receptive to coaching????- Of course he could. But 3 championships and winning every year is good enough.


You're deflecting the discussion. His point was that Shaq could have been even _better_ had he been receptive to coaching. Tex Winters confirms what every Laker fan (or anyone who followed the Lakers at all) have known for years. 



wadeshaqeddie said:


> hmmm....Winters is about to be employed by LA again. Of course he cant point the finger at Kobe. Talking about biases, that is one right there


No.



Diophantos said:


> I'm not sure Tex is "pointing the finger at Shaq" for the breakup of the Lakers, or the losses, or the feud. He's just saying he didn't like the triangle.


What he's saying is that he's not receptive to coaching. It was well known in LA that Shaq especially didn't like being critiqued about how often he practiced his FT shooting (not often).


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Yeah, all those title promises in the past 3 years have come through real big.
> 
> And Kobe has backed it up everywhere he has been, except the one year he didn't have a top 10 player by his side, which is something Shaq has never been without. Not quite the even playing field.



So who was that top 10 player Shaq was playing with when he was in LA from 96-99  

I bet it was Eddie Jones :dead:


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

f22egl said:


> So who was that top 10 player Shaq was playing with when he was in LA from 96-99
> 
> I bet it was Eddie Jones :dead:


Eddie Jones and NVE together easily had the impact of a top 10 player. So yeah. Plus, what did the Lakers do those years anyway? Didn't win jack squat.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

ApheLion02 said:


> The rumors however, that Kobe used to let his HS team fall behind so he can be the hero in the comeback however, tells me two things: its either true, or someone who some what knows him found a plausible explanation to coincidental events. Either way, it brings me back to my original point, that he is arrogant, and is concerned with PR and his legacy to the point of artifice and deception.


Your using highschool rumors to validate your claim of Kobe being arrogant? Besides why do you care if Kobe is arrogant or not? Kobe is a MAN and can carry himself in the way he pleases! I'm really tired of dicussing Kobe Bryant in terms of off the court perceptions....aren't we MEN? Why do we watch the NBA? Do we watch it because of the rumor we heard about someone? Can we start judging a player from his ability on the court...... free from off the court issues? As I said, rumors/gossip are for girls! *Let's talk basketball!*


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

djtoneblaze said:


> Maybe he didn't like Shaq before he ever coached him.
> 
> You know, it IS possible for people to have predetermined notions of people they've never met... like on this site.


As if his criticism of Shaq is unwarrented? Does what he say, not fitting the bill? 
Tex is a critical coach. But like one poster wrote. It's blasphemy to point out any of the negative in Shaq's game, even when it's the truth.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

EHL said:


> Eddie Jones and NVE together easily had the impact of a top 10 player. So yeah. Plus, what did the Lakers do those years anyway? Didn't win jack squat.



Yeah, they only made the playoffs 4 years in a row and were either 1st or 2nd in their division in those years. Unless you are crazy, did you think they were going to beat the Jazz or the Spurs?


By the way, 15 players better than NVE and Eddie Jones combined on their own, in 1997

1. MJ
2. Pippen
3. Olajawon
4. Ewing
5. Stockton
6. Malone
7. Grant Hill
8. Patrick Ewing
9. Reggie Miller
10. Alonzo Mourning
11. Shawn Kemp
12. Gary Payton
13. Mitch Richmond
14. Tim Hardaway
15. Glen Rice


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Quills said:


> Well in Truth No Center or Big man can Compete Skill or Talent Wise with a Foward or Guard . Fowards & Guards or Always better Basketball players , just not that important since theres a lot of them to Dilute the Market & Big men or Rare & I'm not even talking about the Skill & Talent yet just the fact theres more Swings then Bigs , But the Swings or also better then the Bigs . For the Most part if your Not Jordan you need a Bigman (Besides Jordan had Grant & Rodman) to be good , but it has always been a Guards game . Even though it's starting to Switch to a Foward game


I agree w/ the majority of this post, except for the end about it being a guards' league. Its a big men's league. They aren't more skilled or more talented, but they are more effective. W/ the exception of Jordan, its always taken great big people to win in the NBA, and it always will.


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## AirJay (Aug 5, 2005)

ralaw said:


> Your using highschool rumors to validate your claim of Kobe being arrogant? Besides why do you care if Kobe is arrogant or not? Kobe is a MAN and can carry himself in the way he pleases! I'm really tired of dicussing Kobe Bryant in terms of off the court perceptions....aren't we MEN? Why do we watch the NBA? Do we watch it because of the rumor we heard about someone? Can we start judging a player from his ability on the court...... free from off the court issues? As I said, rumors/gossip are for girls! *Let's talk basketball!*


Kobe's supposed 'arrogance' IS very important because it translates into the way he plays the ball game. I don't care if he is selfish of the court or a philanthropist. But he is a selfish player on the court. Shaq made guys like fisher and horry better (and kobe I might add)...I didn't see kobe making lamar odom and chucky atkins (plus chris mihm) better when he was healthy.

Shaq may not have liked practicing his free throws, but does anyone like doing something they are bad at?? He is a normal person just like the rest of us...he won three titles at his peak without a great ft%; imagine if you worked in an office, and you had terrible handwriting, but you still got employee of the year every year. Would you work on your handwriting? Not unless you were exceptionally driven like a jordan, bird, or magic. But shaq chose not to push himself that way, and thats fine. Not everyone can be that driven to achieve perfection.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Shaq may not have liked practicing his free throws, but does anyone like doing something they are bad at??


I think working on flaws in your game is part of the job description.

One thing nobody can ever take away from Kobe is that he's an incredibly hard worker and is constantly looking to fix whatever holes there are in his game. If Shaq had that same determination, he would have fairly easily been the greatest ever.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

AirJay said:


> Kobe's supposed 'arrogance' IS very important because it translates into the way he plays the ball game. I don't care if he is selfish of the court or a philanthropist. But he is a selfish player on the court. Shaq made guys like fisher and horry better (and kobe I might add)...I didn't see kobe making lamar odom and chucky atkins (plus chris mihm) better when he was healthy.
> 
> Shaq may not have liked practicing his free throws, but does anyone like doing something they are bad at?? He is a normal person just like the rest of us...he won three titles at his peak without a great ft%; imagine if you worked in an office, and you had terrible handwriting, but you still got employee of the year every year. Would you work on your handwriting? Not unless you were exceptionally driven like a jordan, bird, or magic. But shaq chose not to push himself that way, and thats fine. Not everyone can be that driven to achieve perfection.


 so this is how it is..

build up Kobe's "flaws" and brush Shaq's to the side


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

AirJay said:


> Kobe's supposed 'arrogance' IS very important because it translates into the way he plays the ball game. I don't care if he is selfish of the court or a philanthropist. But he is a selfish player on the court. Shaq made guys like fisher and horry better (and kobe I might add)...I didn't see kobe making lamar odom and chucky atkins (plus chris mihm) better when he was healthy.
> 
> Shaq may not have liked practicing his free throws, but does anyone like doing something they are bad at?? He is a normal person just like the rest of us...he won three titles at his peak without a great ft%; imagine if you worked in an office, and you had terrible handwriting, but you still got employee of the year every year. Would you work on your handwriting? Not unless you were exceptionally driven like a jordan, bird, or magic. But shaq chose not to push himself that way, and thats fine. Not everyone can be that driven to achieve perfection.


To each's own...... I see your point with Kobe's percieved arrogance, but I think categorizing Kobe and his play from this past year independent of all the other issues he was dealing with is unfair.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

tone wone said:


> so this is how it is..
> 
> build up Kobe's "flaws" and brush Shaq's to the side


Isn't this a part of the agreement when you sign up for this site?


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

ralaw said:


> Isn't this a part of the agreement when you sign up for this site?


 the thing is..

last summer it was crazy; Kobe couldn't do anything right it seemed...it was a haters' dream


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## Duece Duece (Mar 28, 2003)

> I didn't see kobe making lamar odom and chucky atkins (plus chris mihm) better when he was healthy



Maybe you didn't see Kobe making Players like Chucky and Mihm better is........ gasp, cause you didn't watch Laker games. Chucky and Chris had career years in damn near every category.


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## ApheLion02 (Aug 5, 2005)

ralaw said:


> *Your using highschool rumors to validate your claim of Kobe being arrogant?* Besides why do you care if Kobe is arrogant or not? Kobe is a MAN and can carry himself in the way he pleases! I'm really tired of dicussing Kobe Bryant in terms of off the court perceptions....aren't we MEN? Why do we watch the NBA? Do we watch it because of the rumor we heard about someone? Can we start judging a player from his ability on the court...... free from off the court issues? As I said, rumors/gossip are for girls! *Let's talk basketball!*


Good job trying to derogatize and label my points rather than argue them. I've already posted that I'm not simply lapping everything the media throws at me, I'm just looking at all sources of information and comparing them to what I perceive. When that information matches, I would assume them to be somewhat correct, rumor or not. All this chest-beating about "men" and "highschool rumors" is catchy and all, but really doesn't boost your logic.

And secondly, since we were talking about each player's pretentions to GOAT, and YOU were, in fact defending Kobe's aspirations, which brings us to his off court life and perceptions. We were never wholly arguing about Kobe's on-court game, which I agree is spectacular, if selfish. And its not like these two are completely unrelated points either - Kobe's persona and *basketball* aspirations not only show in his on-court play, but also affects his chemistry with other players. So yes, we ARE talking basketball, its just that you either never realized it, or refused to recognize it because you were getting owned in an argument.




ApheLion02 said:


> They both had ungovernable egos, just Shaq was smarter about it. Shaq knew that he couldn't best MJ, so he had to invent titles like Most Dominant Ever, Shogun, Last True Center, and all that ****. But he never had the guts to claim he was the GOAT. Kobe never even talks about it, but you can tell from his demeanor and leaks from those close to him that he takes his legacy very much to heart. How Phil managed to keep them together for as long as he did, I have no idea.





tone wone said:


> so this is how it is..
> 
> build up Kobe's "flaws" and brush Shaq's to the side


As you can see, not everyone that criticizes Kobe is trying put him down and uplift Shaq. I detest Shaq's trashtalk as much as I hate Kobe's politic, carefully crafted media-spin. Like I said, both players had ungovernable egos, and in both cases their basketball fortunes suffered as a result. In Shaq it resulted in him being fat, injury-prone, lack of PnR defense and a reduced prime. In Kobe it resulted in a selfish game, alienating his teammates and being the lone superstar on a lottery team. For both of them it resulted in the breakup of a team which could definitely contend and win a couple more titles. Shaq was lucky, he got another superstar. Kobe didn't.

That being said, both were damn amazing players with supreme talents, and as a Houston fan I'm glad they broke up. Doesn't mean I don't think they have fatal flaws, and fans of either have no need to get so riled up about that.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

"Fatal" flaws? I think that's taking it a bit far considering they won three titles in a row together.


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## ApheLion02 (Aug 5, 2005)

Spriggan said:


> "Fatal" flaws? I think that's taking it a bit far considering they won three titles in a row together.


erm, ok, I went overboard. But these flaws are all the more apparent because they are so good in every other aspect. I guess I used the word fatal because I feel these flaws can't be changed by time / coaching. Inherent might be a better word.


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

You need a Big man to win if your name aint Jordan or Isiah , But it's a Guards Game since who has the Ball more so then any other player to dictate tempo of the Game . Guards & Swingmen , big men would be rendered useless if they dont have someone getting them the Ball . Thats why it's a Guards Game because they can Control the Game . Big men can only dominate if the Guards let them get the ball .


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

*D Wade the best all around guard, Tex Winter Opinion.*

In that article, that was talking about Shaq being one of the least receptive players to coaching. Tex Winter opinion is the Wade is the best all around guard at the present moment. A man that coached Jordan up close. He even when and said the exact same words."He reminds me alot of Jordan." Do you agree, with this basketball genius.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

*Re: D Wade the best all around guard, Tex Winter Opinion.*

buddy.


use the search function.

not to mention, this is not even a topic of discussion. that's a statement.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: D Wade the best all around guard, Tex Winter Opinion.*

I'm merging this with the other thread with the same Tex Winter comments and same discussion going on about Wade/Jordan and Shaq.


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

*Re: D Wade the best all around guard, Tex Winter Opinion.*



Tragedy said:


> buddy.
> 
> 
> use the search function.
> ...


But the fact that he says he is the best all around is a discussion.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Spriggan said:


> "Fatal" flaws? I think that's taking it a bit far considering they won three titles in a row together.


And neither of them are dead.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

And I agree with DWadeisthetruth here in that this thread is really not about anything but Shaq/Kobe. The discussion of DWade really doesn't have any legroom here.

DWade though, you shouldn't have used Tex Winter in the title. Just had it "DWade best all-round guard?" and then dropped the Tex Winter thing. Then I think it would have passed mustard.


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

*Re: D Wade the best all around guard, Tex Winter Opinion.*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I'm merging this with the other thread with the same Tex Winter comments and same discussion going on about Wade/Jordan and Shaq.


I want a seperate discussion. Shaq and Wade are not twins. They have really nothing to do with each other. This goes along the best guard's in the NBA argument. From the Tex Winter's own opinion. To your measly opinion's. A true basketball genius, or some computer guys that think that know it all. Shaq and Wade are different entities. How you merge a thread for Wade being the best all around guard, with Shaq being a lazy learner. Makes no sense.


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## Quills (Jun 18, 2005)

I must be Slow or Biased because I still see the Quate as him saying both Ginobli & Wade or on Jordans Level & I personally rather have Ginobli then Wade Right Now , Wade if I'm picking long term


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> DWade though, you shouldn't have used Tex Winter in the title. Just had it "DWade best all-round guard?" and then dropped the Tex Winter thing. Then I think it would have passed mustard.


Yes, if he creates a thread asking if Wade is the best guard in basketball without referencing the links and discussion in this thread, then that would be fine. Of course, him creating a "is Wade the best guard in basketball" would be like the other threads he has already made. 

But go ahead and make a thread asking if Wade is the best guard in basketball.


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Yes, if he creates a thread asking if Wade is the best guard in basketball without referencing the links and discussion in this thread, then that would be fine. Of course, him creating a "is Wade the best guard in basketball" would be like the other threads he has already made.
> 
> But go ahead and make a thread asking if Wade is the best guard in basketball.


The point is, that Tex Winter is the one saying it. A basketball genius. A man that has coached Jordan, Kobe, and could bring better insight. Than just my measly opinion.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

DWadeistheTruth said:


> The point is, that Tex Winter is the one saying it. A basketball genius. A man that has coached Jordan, Kobe, and could bring better insight. Than just my measly opinion.


Dwyane Wade is a great guard and a top 10 player. You could make a case for him being the best guard in basketball. I'm sure there is a basketball genius who thinks Kobe is the best guard in basketball, or McGrady, or LeBron, etc. Different basketball minds value different things, so they can't all agree on one player being the best, unless it's plainly obvious, and it's not in this case.


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## DWadeistheTruth (Apr 25, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Dwyane Wade is a great guard and a top 10 player. You could make a case for him being the best guard in basketball. I'm sure there is a basketball genius who thinks Kobe is the best guard in basketball, or McGrady, or LeBron, etc. Different basketball minds value different things, so they can't all agree on one player being the best, unless it's plainly obvious, and it's not in this case.


At least he didn't compared him to Kobe. Rest my case.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

f22egl said:


> Yeah, they only made the playoffs 4 years in a row and were either 1st or 2nd in their division in those years. Unless you are crazy, did you think they were going to beat the Jazz or the Spurs?


Uh, who cares if they were first in the _division_. Is that supposed to help your argument?



> By the way, 15 players better than NVE and Eddie Jones combined on their own, in 1997
> 
> 1. MJ
> 2. Pippen
> ...


Rice, Hardaway, and Richmond better than NVE and EJ combined? No. So they were both on the level of a top 13 player. Big freaking difference.


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## ApheLion02 (Aug 5, 2005)

EHL said:


> Uh, who cares if they were first in the _division_. Is that supposed to help your argument?
> 
> 
> 
> Rice, Hardaway, and Richmond better than NVE and EJ combined? No. So they were both on the level of a top 13 player. Big freaking difference.


The original argument was whether they had ever played w/ a top 10 player, not a bunch of players equalling a top 10 player. I bet any championship-supporting cast would be equal the impact of a top 10 player then. Try finding one that doesn't. So that makes your argument moot.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

Otis Thorpe and Vernon Maxwell
Tony Parker and Stephen Jackson
Bob Dandridge and Mitch Kupchak
Dennis Johnson and Jack Sikma

off the top of my head


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

ApheLion02 said:


> Good job trying to derogatize and label my points rather than argue them. I've already posted that I'm not simply lapping everything the media throws at me, I'm just looking at all sources of information and comparing them to what I perceive. When that information matches, I would assume them to be somewhat correct, rumor or not. All this chest-beating about "men" and "highschool rumors" is catchy and all, but really doesn't boost your logic.
> 
> And secondly, since we were talking about each player's pretentions to GOAT, and YOU were, in fact defending Kobe's aspirations, which brings us to his off court life and perceptions. We were never wholly arguing about Kobe's on-court game, which I agree is spectacular, if selfish. And its not like these two are completely unrelated points either - Kobe's persona and *basketball* aspirations not only show in his on-court play, but also affects his chemistry with other players. So yes, we ARE talking basketball, its just that you either never realized it, or refused to recognize it because you were getting owned in an argument.


I'm not going to get into a verbal bout with you disusing whether Kobe is arrogant or not or whether you believe Kobe is actually sitting at home formulating a plan to swindle everyone into thinking he is an all-time great. If you believe this to be fact, then believe what you wish.. If you use rumors to confirm your opinions that’s fine as well. I’m not trying to tell you how to think. I’m not going to try and change your perception, because as we all know, “Our perception is our reality.” We just need to make sure our perception is not being manipulated by external forces! 

I agree Kobe is a selfish player right now, well……. as of this past year. However, we need to remember this was Kobe’s first time playing without the most dominate force in the NBA in the past 2 decades. Obviously Kobe felt he had something to prove after taking the entire blame for the breakup of the Lakers, and in some instances in his desire to prove people wrong, he appeared to be selfish, but we have to take things in proper context. Kobe was playing with a lot of baggage (which he put on himself) this past year, but to judge and categorize him is being irresponsible to the situation. It’s extremely easy to sit back, judge, categorize and form our opinions on Kobe especially now with the media so impressed with Shaq (who the media use to love to hate), the Lakers record and the trial.

I find you closing amusing…. and cute……typically in order to own someone an outside person must first confirm this happening. So, you actually stole your own thunder!


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## ChrisWoj (May 17, 2005)

clien said:


> shaq is lazy - try argueing against it...


Okay!

Shaq spent many years in Los Angelos. For a team that had an incredible media presence. Under a management team that wanted the BIGGEST (not to mention baddest) Center in the NBA. It has been stated repeatedly that Shaq was told to get bigger by the LA management, and since they were winning championships it didn't matter to anybody in that management team that Shaq wasn't as good as he could be.

However it hurt his longevity. The instant he left LA he started running again, dropping weight, and getting into better cardiovascular shape for Miami, a team that needed him in peak form more than LA did (because, face it, Wade isn't as good as Kobe... yet [though I think he will soon be better]). He will likely have another good year or two in him thanks to the conditioning he has been doing for Miami now that he is out from under the ruling by LA Management that he needs to be the biggest thing in the NBA.


-Chris.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

is there a link to something that says la wanted shaq bigger and fatter with worse conditioning?


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## ApheLion02 (Aug 5, 2005)

ralaw said:


> I'm not going to get into a verbal bout with you disusing whether Kobe is arrogant or not or whether you believe Kobe is actually sitting at home formulating a plan to swindle everyone into thinking he is an all-time great. If you believe this to be fact, then believe what you wish.. If you use rumors to confirm your opinions that’s fine as well. I’m not trying to tell you how to think. I’m not going to try and change your perception, because as we all know, “Our perception is our reality.” We just need to make sure our perception is not being manipulated by external forces!
> 
> I agree Kobe is a selfish player right now, well……. as of this past year. However, we need to remember this was Kobe’s first time playing without the most dominate force in the NBA in the past 2 decades. Obviously Kobe felt he had something to prove after taking the entire blame for the breakup of the Lakers, and in some instances in his desire to prove people wrong, he appeared to be selfish, but we have to take things in proper context. Kobe was playing with a lot of baggage (which he put on himself) this past year, but to judge and categorize him is being irresponsible to the situation. It’s extremely easy to sit back, judge, categorize and form our opinions on Kobe especially now with the media so impressed with Shaq (who the media use to love to hate), the Lakers record and the trial.
> 
> I find you closing amusing…. and cute……typically in order to own someone an outside person must first confirm this happening. So, you actually stole your own thunder!



1) Perception is *always* about the external world. Maybe you are the one who's letting your own inner assumptions shut out information?

2) Agreed about Kobe's situation last year, but since I believe he brought this situation on himself partially, I don't feel much sympathy. Also, that does not mean his play last year was any less imperfect. Next year will be the year he absolutely have to prove himself however, no excuses.

3) Getting owned is owned; doesn't matter what others say. You implied as much, using the world "confirmed". Doesn't something have to happen first before anyone can confirm it? Just accept the fact and move on.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

EHL said:


> Uh, who cares if they were first in the _division_. Is that supposed to help your argument?


Kobe didn't even make the playoffs last year, that's why.




EHL said:


> Rice, Hardaway, and Richmond better than NVE and EJ combined? No. So they were both on the level of a top 13 player. Big freaking difference.



Rice and Richmond were 3rd and 4th in the league in scoring THAT YEAR. Rice averaged 27 ppg on 47 % shooting from the field and 3 point range. Richmond averaged 26 ppg, 5 apg, 5 rpg, and nearly 2 SPG. Rice and Richmond both made the 2nd NBA team.

Tim Hardaway averaged 20.3 PPG, 8.6 APG, 3 RPG, and 2 SPG. And if that's not impressive enough for you, he also made all NBA first team.

By the way, some more players who were better in 1997, Shaq (duh), Penny Hardaway, Charles Barkely, and Chris Webber.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

ApheLion02 said:


> 1) Perception is *always* about the external world. Maybe you are the one who's letting your own inner assumptions shut out information?
> 
> 2) Agreed about Kobe's situation last year, but since I believe he brought this situation on himself partially, I don't feel much sympathy. Also, that does not mean his play last year was any less imperfect. Next year will be the year he absolutely have to prove himself however, no excuses.
> 
> 3) Getting owned is owned; doesn't matter what others say. You implied as much, using the world "confirmed". Doesn't something have to happen first before anyone can confirm it? Just accept the fact and move on.


The argument of "Doesn't something have to happen first before anyone can confirm it?" is a philosophical argument that is not meant for a basketball forum. So, I'm not going to get into that. My only question to you is would Jordan be considered the G.O.A.T if no confirmed it to be true?

You obviously believe your opinions are the Gospel of Truth, and if someone challenges those opinions,... and you don't agree with them you attempt to shut them down by saying, "I owned you," so any more conversation on this topic is worthless!


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## ApheLion02 (Aug 5, 2005)

ralaw said:


> The argument of "Doesn't something have to happen first before anyone can confirm it?" is a philosophical argument that is not meant for a basketball forum. So, I'm not going to get into that. My only question to you is would Jordan be considered the G.O.A.T if no confirmed it to be true?


Great, labelling me again instead of addressing my points. And if no one confirmed it to be true, why, Jordan would still be GOAT. The last time I looked, Jordan's achievements were playing on the basketball court, not the court of public opinion. Why, if everyone "confirmed" Shawn Bradley to be the greatest center ever, does that make it true?



ralaw said:


> You obviously believe your opinions are the Gospel of Truth, and if someone challenges those opinions,... and you don't agree with them you attempt to shut them down by saying, "I owned you," so any more conversation on this topic is worthless!


Funny you should mention that when throughout this thread , its you who have been doing most of the dismissing, and me arguing.




ralaw said:


> You know I hear the same rumors when it comes to Lindsay Lohan, J-LO, Brittany Spears, etc..! Rumors are for girls! Get some facts! BTW, you don't think every player in the league has similar dreams?





ralaw said:


> As I said, rumors/gossip are for girls! Let's talk basketball!


As you can see, when I say "I owned you", I'm not ignoring what you say and shutting you down, but rather its a conclusion I've reached from looking at my posts and yours.


----------



## clien (Jun 2, 2005)

ChrisWoj said:


> Okay!
> 
> Shaq spent many years in Los Angelos. For a team that had an incredible media presence. Under a management team that wanted the BIGGEST (not to mention baddest) Center in the NBA. It has been stated repeatedly that Shaq was told to get bigger by the LA management, and since they were winning championships it didn't matter to anybody in that management team that Shaq wasn't as good as he could be.
> 
> ...


I dont think the Lakers wanted Shaq to not work out, or run..and just sit around and get fat, I dont know why you would think that....but your right about him working hard after he was traded that seems to be the motivation he needed to get in shape, and practice.
........but to argue the statment i made about shaq being lazy, the perfect example would be the games he takes off in the regular season every yr. for extra rest


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

ApheLion02 said:


> Great, labelling me again instead of addressing my points. And if no one confirmed it to be true, why, Jordan would still be GOAT. The last time I looked, Jordan's achievements were playing on the basketball court, not the court of public opinion. Why, if everyone "confirmed" Shawn Bradley to be the greatest center ever, does that make it true?


You would be suprised how much power public opinion has. This dicussion is useless becuase we are on two different pages. I'll agree to disagree. 

Atleast we have one thing in common



ApheLion02 said:


> Like I said, both players had ungovernable egos, and in both cases their basketball fortunes suffered as a result. In Shaq it resulted in him being fat, injury-prone, lack of PnR defense and a reduced prime. In Kobe it resulted in a selfish game, alienating his teammates and being the lone superstar on a lottery team. For both of them it resulted in the breakup of a team which could definitely contend and win a couple more titles. Shaq was lucky, he got another superstar. Kobe didn't.
> 
> That being said, both were damn amazing players with supreme talents, and as a Houston fan I'm glad they broke up. Doesn't mean I don't think they have fatal flaws, and fans of either have no need to get so riled up about that


Shaq + Kobe's Legacy > Yoa + T-Mac's Legacy............. :smilewink 

Good luck this year with Houston.


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

he say she say, 



I'm not reading it


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## AirJay (Aug 5, 2005)

Duece Duece said:


> Maybe you didn't see Kobe making Players like Chucky and Mihm better is........ gasp, cause you didn't watch Laker games. Chucky and Chris had career years in damn near every category.


only because he was hurt for so long


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

AirJay said:


> only because he was hurt for so long


 actually cause they get consistant good minutes...which is something Chucky Atkins shouldn't have..

and before you try...dont bring up Odom


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

f22egl said:


> Kobe didn't even make the playoffs last year, that's why.


That's nice. Too bad it's irrelavent. 



> Rice and Richmond were 3rd and 4th in the league in scoring THAT YEAR. Rice averaged 27 ppg on 47 % shooting from the field and 3 point range. Richmond averaged 26 ppg, 5 apg, 5 rpg, and nearly 2 SPG. Rice and Richmond both made the 2nd NBA team.


Mitch Richmond has never averaged 26/5/5/2spg in his life. The closest he got was 25.9/3.9/4.2/1.46spg in the 96/97 season. Glen Rice averaged 26.8ppg on 47.7% FG%...but also averaged just 4 rpg and 2.1 apg that season. Great scorer and shooter, but did nothing else. 

Anyway, EJ was a better defender than both Richmond and Rice by quite a bit, and averaged 17.2/4.1/3.4/2.36 spg in 96/97. NVE averaged 15.3/2.9/8.5 in the 96/97 season. NVE and EJ combined were EASILY as good as Rice or Richmond individually. In fact, quite a bit better. It's not in the least bit far fetched and anyone who remembers that season accurately agrees. 



> Tim Hardaway averaged 20.3 PPG, 8.6 APG, 3 RPG, and 2 SPG. And if that's not impressive enough for you, he also made all NBA first team.


So what. EJ averaged 17.2/4.1/3.4/2.36 spg in 96/97 and NVE averaged 15.3/2.9/8.5 in the 96/97 season.



> By the way, some more players who were better in 1997, Shaq (duh), Penny Hardaway, Charles Barkely, and Chris Webber.


Penny in 96-97? You must of missed the memo; Penny injured himself that season and clearly wasn't as good as he was before then. And was never the same after that. Webber? Debatable. Barkley as a Rocket? Very good, but sorry, not nearly as good as he was in his prime, especially as a scorer and defender (and he was never a good defender even in his prime). Shaq? Yes, of course. 

But I'm still right.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Quills said:


> You need a Big man to win if your name aint Jordan or Isiah , But it's a Guards Game since who has the Ball more so then any other player to dictate tempo of the Game . Guards & Swingmen , big men would be rendered useless if they dont have someone getting them the Ball . Thats why it's a Guards Game because they can Control the Game . Big men can only dominate if the Guards let them get the ball .


And if your guards don't get the big men the ball, then you dump your guards and get someone who WILL pass the ball to them, because if you don't you won't ever win a championship.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

EHL said:


> Eddie Jones and NVE together easily had the impact of a top 10 player.





EHL said:


> So they were both on the level of a top 13 player. Big freaking difference.





EHL said:


> But I'm still right.


 ity: 

We are only talking about 1996-1997 and who would have had a bigger impact.

Webber had 20.1 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 bpg, and 1.7 spg. He is definetely better than NVE and Eddie Jones combined back then.

So basically your assuming that Penny Hardaway would have gotten injured if he was with a player like Shaq, when his initial injury was more due to a freak accident. He definetely exposed himself to injury because he was exerting himself more as the number 1 option. Penny Hardaway still made all nba 3rd team. He missed several games much like Kobe did this year; is Kobe on the decline as of now? That logic is flawed. 20.5 ppg, 5.6 apg, and 4.5 rpg. Hardaway was severely injured during the 1997-98 season. By the way, I remember this guy putting up 42 points in the postseason in 1997, he must have really been injured.

http://www.canoe.ca/1997NBAFinals/may1_sma.html

Barkely got 19.2 ppg, 13.5 rpg, and 4.7 apg on a very good Houston Rockets team. Those are some insane rebounding numbers! I would take Barkely especially in the post season over them for that season.

If you are considering future injuries and ect to Penny Hardaway, there were also more valuable pieces in the league like Allen Iverson, Kevin Garnett, and Ray Allen. There were also players like Juwan Howard and Glenn Robinson whose value appeared higher than it actually was.

Either case, here are a list of 2nd and 3rd options better than NVE and Eddie Jones for 96-97

1. Drexler and Barkely (Olajawon)
2. Pippen and Harper (Jordan)
3. Stockton and Hornacek (Malone)
4. Howard and Strickland (Webber
5. Mourning and Lenard (Hardaway was MVP for the team that year)
6. Wilkins and Elliot (David Robinson)
7. Steve Smith and Mookie Blaylock (Mutumbo the man on the this team)
8. Jimmy Jackson and Michael Finley (Jason Kidd)
9. Kemp and Detlef Schremp (Payton)
10. Rik Smits and Mark Jackson (Miller)
11. Vin Baker and Ray Allen (Glenn Robinson)
12. Sam Cassell and Kerry Kittles (Kendall Gill, Kittles actually played 82 games)
13. Jerry Stackhouse and Derick Coleman (Allen Iverson)
14. Rasheed Wallace and Clifford Robinson (Kenny Anderson)
15. Garnett and Marbury (Tom Gugliotta, *NO BRAINER*)



Is this supposed to be some back handed stab at Shaq because he needed help to win a championship? Jordan had Pippen who may even considered a top 5 player during that time because of his overall offense and defensive skill sets. Even the teams that didn't such as the Houston Rockets for their first championship had a much deeper team, with Thorpe, Horry, Casell, Maxwell, and Smith, and this Laker team did not fit the bill. NVE is not as good as Smith and Jones was not as clutch as Maxwell, and Thorpe was definetely better than Cambell. This Lakers' team also lacked in one thing. 

*COACHING!* Del Harris has never had great sucess in the postseason with every team he has been with.

I don't care if Shaq is "harder to coach" than any other player. Allen Iverson is harder to coach than Eric Snow. Go ahead and build your team around Eric Snow.


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

f22egl said:


> ity:
> 
> We are only talking about 1996-1997 and who would have had a bigger impact.
> 
> ...


 Why talk about the lakers 96-97 season when when the 97-98 season they won over 60 games and had 4 all-stars..Shaq, Jones, Van Exel and Kobe

...what happend to that team???


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

tone wone said:


> Why talk about the lakers 96-97 season when when the 97-98 season they won over 60 games and had 4 all-stars..Shaq, Jones, Van Exel and Kobe
> 
> ...what happend to that team???


They collapsed when it came time for the series, Shaq couldn't make his free throws  
http://slam.canoe.ca/NBAPlayoffs98Games/may24_lal_uta.html



> "I hate going home (bleeping) early," said O'Neal, who followed a familiar script yesterday. He scored 38 points and was the only reason L.A. even was remotely in the game, but he also missed five crucial foul shots in the fourth quarter, and eight overall.





> Asked about the disappearing act his teammates pulled against Utah after impressive playoff performances against Portland and Seattle, O'Neal said, "Guys just have to step up. They have to find out what's important to them. If they don't want to play, they can ask for a trade. Get off my team."


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

So Shaq was lazy and stubborn.

Whoopee!!!

Now, where exactly is this a news flash?


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

ApheLion02 said:


> Kobe never even talks about it, but you can tell from his demeanor and leaks from those close to him that he takes his legacy very much to heart. How Phil managed to keep them together for as long as he did, I have no idea.



wow... an athlete that cares for his legacy and aspires to be the best to ever do what he does...

this is what is wrong with sports...lol


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> We are only talking about 1996-1997 and who would have had a bigger impact.
> 
> Webber had 20.1 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 4.6 apg, 1.9 bpg, and 1.7 spg. He is definetely better than NVE and Eddie Jones combined back then.


Webber was a very good player but never a good defender, and believe it or not stats don’t tell you everything. I’d take NVE and EJ in the backcourt to start my team over Webber every time. Well, most every time. It’s a push at best. Wait, strike that, I’d take NVE and EJ without much hesitation. 



> So basically your assuming that Penny Hardaway would have gotten injured if he was with a player like Shaq, when his initial injury was more due to a freak accident.


No, I’m assuming you realize that Penny Hardaway just wasn’t Penny Hardaway in 96-97, the season in question. Hell, I’d argue Eddie Jones by himself was as good as Penny was in 97. 



> He definetely exposed himself to injury because he was exerting himself more as the number 1 option. Penny Hardaway still made all nba 3rd team. He missed several games much like Kobe did this year; is Kobe on the decline as of now?


Did Kobe suffer a major and eventually career-ending knee injury this past season like Penny did in 96-97? No. End of story. 



> That logic is flawed. 20.5 ppg, 5.6 apg, and 4.5 rpg. Hardaway was severely injured during the 1997-98 season. By the way, I remember this guy putting up 42 points in the postseason in 1997, he must have really been injured.
> 
> http://www.canoe.ca/1997NBAFinals/may1_sma.html


Who gives a crap what he did during one postseason game. He might not even have been as good as EJ was in 97, let alone NVE and EJ. 



> Barkely got 19.2 ppg, 13.5 rpg, and 4.7 apg on a very good Houston Rockets team. Those are some insane rebounding numbers! I would take Barkely especially in the post season over them for that season.


Your stats aren’t very convincing. Barkley was 34 and a matador-extreme in 97. His PPG is nearly equaled by EJ’s in 97, and completely dwarfed when you add NVE into the mix. Of course, the biggest factor of all is that Barkley was no longer a superstar in 97 and he there couldn’t command those double and triple teams anymore. 



> If you are considering future injuries and ect to Penny Hardaway, there were also more valuable pieces in the league like Allen Iverson, Kevin Garnett, and Ray Allen.


Good lord, are you kidding? None of these players were any good in 97 save for AI, who wasn’t nearly as good then as he is now. 



> There were also players like Juwan Howard and Glenn Robinson whose value appeared higher than it actually was.


Say what? Are you really trying to argue that Big Dog or Howard were better than EJ or NVE individually, let alone combined? 



> Either case, here are a list of 2nd and 3rd options better than NVE and Eddie Jones for 96-97
> 
> 1. Drexler and Barkely (Olajawon)
> 2. Pippen and Harper (Jordan)
> ...


Irrelevant, but OK. 



> Is this supposed to be some back handed stab at Shaq because he needed help to win a championship? Jordan had Pippen who may even considered a top 5 player during that time because of his overall offense and defensive skill sets. Even the teams that didn't such as the Houston Rockets for their first championship had a much deeper team, with Thorpe, Horry, Casell, Maxwell, and Smith, and this Laker team did not fit the bill. NVE is not as good as Smith and Jones was not as clutch as Maxwell, and Thorpe was definetely better than Cambell.


Good god. Smith and Jones were better than NVE? Suddenly Thorpe is a good player? I’m sorry, but you clearly never watched the Lakers at all in the mid-to-late 90’s. They were loaded from top to bottom. It was a disappointment when they didn’t win titles, because they certainly had the talent. 



> This Lakers' team also lacked in one thing.
> 
> COACHING! Del Harris has never had great sucess in the postseason with every team he has been with.


Rudy T wasn’t exactly a coaching genius when he won two straight titles coaching the Rockets. Your point is even more moot. 



> I don't care if Shaq is "harder to coach" than any other player. Allen Iverson is harder to coach than Eric Snow. Go ahead and build your team around Eric Snow.


Boy oh boy.


----------



## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

EHL said:


> Webber was a very good player but never a good defender, and believe it or not stats don’t tell you everything. I’d take NVE and EJ in the backcourt to start my team over Webber every time. Well, most every time. It’s a push at best. Wait, strike that, I’d take NVE and EJ without much hesitation.


 thats your opinion and you still haven't said much. you just stated your opinion....big deal...irrelevant.





EHL said:


> No, I’m assuming you realize that Penny Hardaway just wasn’t Penny Hardaway in 96-97, the season in question. Hell, I’d argue Eddie Jones by himself was as good as Penny was in 97.


wrong but...uh...OK.  see my comment above.




EHL said:


> Who gives a crap what he did during one postseason game. He might not even have been as good as EJ was in 97, let alone NVE and EJ.


you lose all credibility when you say eddie was better than penny in 97...eddie was and has always been a Good role player. he never was and never will be a superstar. penny in 97 was a superstar, or at least all-star caliber.




EHL said:


> Your stats aren’t very convincing. Barkley was 34 and a matador-extreme in 97. His PPG is nearly equaled by EJ’s in 97, and completely dwarfed when you add NVE into the mix. Of course, the biggest factor of all is that Barkley was no longer a superstar in 97 and he there couldn’t command those double and triple teams anymore.


this comment just proves that you don't watch anything other than the lakers. barkley was still dominant in 97...he was still getting double-teamed...thats why houston had all those 3-point shooters like maloney and eddie johnson. anytime you average 20 and 14....thats pretty dominant.




EHL said:


> Say what? Are you really trying to argue that Big Dog or Howard were better than EJ or NVE individually, let alone combined?


big dog was definitely better than those guys individually. once again, proving that you don't watch anything other than lakers. Big dog was all star caliber back then. everyone outside of lakerland knows that EJ and NVE were good players but overvalued because they played in LA.




EHL said:


> Irrelevant, but OK.


no...its relevant. i think you know its relevant too. but just too darn stubborn to admit it. do i really need to explain why the information was relevant? even a piece of rock can understand why. GOOD LORD!!




EHL said:


> Boy oh boy.


GOOD GOD! you like these useless, irrelevant, and condescending comments that you make??


----------



## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

shobe42 said:


> wow... an athlete that cares for his legacy and aspires to be the best to ever do what he does...
> 
> this is what is wrong with sports...lol


Kobe should be more worried about how to get back into the playoffs and the Championship rather than his legacy. Once he changes his mindset then his legacy will be written for him instead of him trying to write his own legacy....this is what's wrong with sports!!!


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

LMAO. jc76er’s comes out from under the bridge after months of hibernation just for me. How cute. 



> thats your opinion and you still haven't said much. you just stated your opinion....big deal...irrelevant.


No, it’s actually pretty relevant in a discussion regarding player ability. In this case, my opinion would be relevant, and yours would not, since you never watched NBA basketball until last season. Remember? 



> wrong but...uh...OK. see my comment above.


No need, it was already debunked. 



> you lose all credibility when you say eddie was better than penny in 97...


First read carefully then get back to me. You can’t seem catch onto the whole reading comp thing, but you work a legit 9-5? BS. 



> eddie was and has always been a Good role player. he never was and never will be a superstar. penny in 97 was a superstar, or at least all-star caliber.


Eddie Jones was a 3-time All Star during his career, check the stats and records as you clearly never saw him play. 



> this comment just proves that you don't watch anything other than the lakers. barkley was still dominant in 97...he was still getting double-teamed...thats why houston had all those 3-point shooters like maloney and eddie johnson. anytime you average 20 and 14....thats pretty dominant.


Again jc, I’m not sure why you’re commenting on players you’ve never seen play before. 



> big dog was definitely better than those guys individually. once again, proving that you don't watch anything other than lakers. Big dog was all star caliber back then. everyone outside of lakerland knows that EJ and NVE were good players but overvalued because they played in LA.


Yawn. EJ made three All Star teams to Big Dog’s two, and combined EJ and NVE made four. Combined they were easily better than one dimensional Big Dog. You’re done son. 



> no...its relevant. i think you know its relevant too. but just too darn stubborn to admit it. do i really need to explain why the information was relevant? even a piece of rock can understand why. GOOD LORD!!


Explain it then d00d, it’ll be fun to see you squirm.



> GOOD GOD! you like these useless, irrelevant, and condescending comments that you make??


I save the best for you. :laugh:


----------



## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

EHL said:


> Webber was a very good player but never a good defender, and believe it or not stats don’t tell you everything. I’d take NVE and EJ in the backcourt to start my team over Webber every time. Well, most every time. It’s a push at best. Wait, strike that, I’d take NVE and EJ without much hesitation.
> 
> No, I’m assuming you realize that Penny Hardaway just wasn’t Penny Hardaway in 96-97, the season in question. Hell, I’d argue Eddie Jones by himself was as good as Penny was in 97.
> 
> ...



1. Penny Hardaway's injury wasn't career ending, he still had some decent years but never to all star caliber. Certainly, though 96-97 was his last one and was still a top 10 player in the league. His 42 point performance against Miami, a Pat Riley coached team, showed that Hardaway was still in his prime towards the end of the season and no one could have predicted that his career would come to halt because of nagging injuries. I only brought up Kobe because his career does not appear to be coming towards an end but he did miss significant time but is still a valued prospect in the NBA.

2. I would take Chris Webber over NVE and Eddie Jones especially come the playoff time. In a matter of speaking, a good inside is very reliable especially since refeees tend to call fewer fouls and give defense's benefit of the doubt. Webber would definetely post similar numbers with the Lakers since he had to share the ball with a lot of other teammates especially on the inside including Juwan Howard (19.1 ppg) and Ghorge Muresan (10.6 ppg). Rod Strickland and Calbert Cheaney also took a lot of shots. Webber would also be ideal because he was a player that teams had to double team, the same can't be said for NVE and Jones. 

3. Barkely 19.5 ppg is not that impressive but considering that there were other options like Olajawon(23.2 ppg) and Drexel, (18 ppg). I think Barkely's 13.5 rpg per game was the most impressive stat because he still had to get boards from Olajawon. Barkely still got double teamed but it wouldn't be wise to double team him when Olajawon was on the court with him. In fact, he was largely responsible for that series win against LA when they beat them 3-1 in 1997.

4. Actually KG did make the all star team in 96-97 and is worthy of a mention on his own of mathing Jones or NVE. Allen Iverson is very arguable since he did put up 23.5 ppg. I would pick AI and KG over Jones and NVE but not over both for that year anyways. 

5. I'm not trying to argue that they were actually better, but their value was actually higher. In 1996, Juwan Howard did receive his 105 million dollar contract from the Wizards and even toward the end of the 97 season, many people considered him to be the best player on the team (even though he wasn't). Glenn Robinson was (mistakenly) taken as a franchise player. What I'm basically saying is that the Wizards wouldn't have taken Jones and NVE for Howard and the Bucks wouldn't trade Robinson for both. However, this a pointless point since value doesn't mean anything and NVE and Jones were better, although I don't know if Jones on his own would be considered better than Howard. 

6. This point is not irrelavant, especially since it illustrates that Shaq did not have as good a supporting 2-3 players as 15 other teams. This does not help as Shaq alluded to in the article I mentioned above that the Lakers were not a very team oriented, both on the offensive and defensive end.

7. The point that you consider that Rudy T is not a good coach is laughable. He may not be the same coach as he was during his title years, hence the phrase, genius has an expiration date. But stating Rudy T did not do anything to help the Rockets team win the title is crazy. They were a 6th seed in in the 94-95 run so coaching definetely played an important role for them on their run.

8. The point I'm emphasizing here is that the Rockets were a much better team because they played as a unit and were consistent and clutch come playoff time. Otis Thorpe was actually a good player in 94-95, and was incredibly efficient with his 14 ppg and 6.9 rpg. He definetely could have been a better player if he took more shots, he was a 56% shooter from the field, I would take him over Campbell, who average 14.9 ppg and 8 rpg but was also not a good defender on power forwards like Malone and Barkely, and shot only 47% from the field

9. Smith was not as exciting offensive but definetely ran the offense much better than NVE, with the team, and showed up in the post season by hitting big shots. His 10.4 ppg and 4.0 apg were not that impressive in 94-95 but hit 48.5% of his shots and more importantly brought great leadership to the team which cannot be measured by numbers. He was also splitting time with Sam Cassell as well, who he helped make a better player. 

10. The Lakers may have been loaded top to bottom but they did not play good team ball, due to their personel and their lack of coaching. It's funny because the teams that beat them definetely had a better combo of players at the top (Olajuwon and Drexler, Stockton and Malone(twice), and Duncan and Robinson) and better coaches (Rudy T, Sloan, and Pop). Only when Kobe emerged as a star and Phil arrived were the Lakers able to emerge as champions. Still, Shaq alluded to that the Lakers did not play as a team. This is where you underrate Rudy T and his ability to assign roles to players whereas the lakers played too much one on one and were not a good defensive team. And it's not like they were close to becoming a championship team, they were easily beaten by the Rockets and swept by Jazz and Spurs.


----------



## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

EHL said:


> LMAO. jc76er’s comes out from under the bridge after months of hibernation just for me. How cute.


[strike]nah, your too low for me to come out of hibernation. don't think of yourself that highly okay?[/strike]





EHL said:


> No, it’s actually pretty relevant in a discussion regarding player ability. In this case, my opinion would be relevant, and yours would not, since you never watched NBA basketball until last season. Remember?


[strike]once again, another useless comment by EHL[/strike]





EHL said:


> No need, it was already debunked.


only in your mind. 



EHL said:


> First read carefully then get back to me. You can’t seem catch onto the whole reading comp thing, but you work a legit 9-5? BS.


[strike]i can tell that you probably got your first real job sometime the past few months since you don't respond so quickly in the daytime now. its kinda of bummer though...most people get their first real jobs at 18 or 22 (depending on college)...you claim your what 28??[/strike] 





EHL said:


> Eddie Jones was a 3-time All Star during his career, check the stats and records as you clearly never saw him play.


[strike]you must not work in an environment that requires reading since you couldn't read that[/strike] i said EJ and NVE talents are overvalued since they play on the Lakers




EHL said:


> Yawn. EJ made three All Star teams to Big Dog’s two, and combined EJ and NVE made four. Combined they were easily better than one dimensional Big Dog. You’re done son.


oh okay...so now you want to say that stats matter?? whenever its most convenient for your argument eh? [strike]what a hippocrite[/strike]. just put it this way...no way in hell milwaukee would have traded big dog for EJ or NVE back in 97. [strike]take off the blinders already. you lost this argument big time. whenever you resort to such reasons as using 2 good role players in lieu of a superstar to justify your argument...you lost!![/strike]




EHL said:


> Explain it then d00d, it’ll be fun to see you squirm.


[strike]even if I do want to put in the effort of explaining something so simple to you, you still wouldn't get it because you have reading comprehension problems. why don't you just ask a rock. i'm sure theres plenty around.[/strike] 




EHL said:


> I save the best for you. :laugh:


[strike]hey, another monumental occasion for you EHL....you just did a response without ever saying the words 'GOOD LORD' or 'GOOD GOD'....

for old times sake...say it one more time in your next response![/strike] since we are talking about old times, whatever happened to that photo of kobe in a buff body that you superimposed??? 

make that your avatar again...cool?

*Do not attack other posters, certainly not moderators! If you do this again, your entire post will be deleted out right! I'm not going to waste my time striking out things like this from you again.

Read the rules thread that is stuck on this forum.

-HearToTemptYou*


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

tatahbenitez said:


> Kobe should be more worried about how to get back into the playoffs and the Championship rather than his legacy. Once he changes his mindset then his legacy will be written for him instead of him trying to write his own legacy....this is what's wrong with sports!!!


Isn't playoffs and championships a legacy? Every player wants to right there own legacy. Every player want to leave the game knowing that they left something behind for fans to remember. That type of mindset is what makes players great. I mean even Shaq himself said that he wants everybody to know that he was the best to ever play the game but nobody says that he is wrong for it. It seems to me that you're just taking the popular, incorrect, and down right lazy way of definding Kobe's mindset and motive to his carreer(arrogant, selfish and cares about no one on the team but himself).


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> 1. Penny Hardaway's injury wasn't career ending, he still had some decent years but never to all star caliber. Certainly, though 96-97 was his last one and was still a top 10 player in the league. His 42 point performance against Miami, a Pat Riley coached team, showed that Hardaway was still in his prime towards the end of the season and no one could have predicted that his career would come to halt because of nagging injuries. I only brought up Kobe because his career does not appear to be coming towards an end but he did miss significant time but is still a valued prospect in the NBA.


That knee injury was the beginning of the end of Penny’s superstar career unfortunately. If you would have said 95-96 Penny, I would have said yes, he absolutely was better than EJ and both EJ and NVE combined too. Knee injuries like the one he suffered are career-ending in the sense that it ended his elite ability that he could have possibly continued on for another 8-10 years. 



> 2. I would take Chris Webber over NVE and Eddie Jones especially come the playoff time. In a matter of speaking, a good inside is very reliable especially since refeees tend to call fewer fouls and give defense's benefit of the doubt. Webber would definetely post similar numbers with the Lakers since he had to share the ball with a lot of other teammates especially on the inside including Juwan Howard (19.1 ppg) and Ghorge Muresan (10.6 ppg). Rod Strickland and Calbert Cheaney also took a lot of shots. Webber would also be ideal because he was a player that teams had to double team, the same can't be said for NVE and Jones.


Webber and postseason in the same sentence? Are we talking about the same player? Even a good deal of Kings fans will admit Webber wasn’t a postseason performer, in the sense that he was not clutch or that he could lead a team far. I’ll grant you it’s close, but Webber is very overrated IMO. Agree to disagree. 



> 3. Barkely 19.5 ppg is not that impressive but considering that there were other options like Olajawon(23.2 ppg) and Drexel, (18 ppg). I think Barkely's 13.5 rpg per game was the most impressive stat because he still had to get boards from Olajawon. Barkely still got double teamed but it wouldn't be wise to double team him when Olajawon was on the court with him. In fact, he was largely responsible for that series win against LA when they beat them 3-1 in 1997.


Barkley was a fine player in 97 but not a superstar like he used to be. Either way it’s a push and it’s pretty subjective. But I can still point to his porous defense that season (undeniable, even though defensive ability is pretty subjective) and the fact that he simply wasn’t scoring at the rate he used to (26 ppg on 55%+). 



> 4. Actually KG did make the all star team in 96-97 and is worthy of a mention on his own of mathing Jones or NVE. Allen Iverson is very arguable since he did put up 23.5 ppg. I would pick AI and KG over Jones and NVE but not over both for that year anyways.


KG didn’t do anything noteworthy that season, he was like 18 or something. AI was very good, sure, but he is much better now than he was then. Also, as I said before, stats don’t tell you _everything_. 



> 5. I'm not trying to argue that they were actually better, but their value was actually higher. In 1996, Juwan Howard did receive his 105 million dollar contract from the Wizards and even toward the end of the 97 season, many people considered him to be the best player on the team (even though he wasn't). Glenn Robinson was (mistakenly) taken as a franchise player. What I'm basically saying is that the Wizards wouldn't have taken Jones and NVE for Howard and the Bucks wouldn't trade Robinson for both. However, this a pointless point since value doesn't mean anything and NVE and Jones were better, although I don't know if Jones on his own would be considered better than Howard.


I think I agree with what you’re saying here. 



> 6. This point is not irrelavant, especially since it illustrates that Shaq did not have as good a supporting 2-3 players as 15 other teams. This does not help as Shaq alluded to in the article I mentioned above that the Lakers were not a very team oriented, both on the offensive and defensive end.


No, but Shaq did have a deep team. Not as deep as 15 other teams? Gross exaggeration. Lakers had top 5 depth that season. 



> 7. The point that you consider that Rudy T is not a good coach is laughable. He may not be the same coach as he was during his title years, hence the phrase, genius has an expiration date. But stating Rudy T did not do anything to help the Rockets team win the title is crazy. They were a 6th seed in in the 94-95 run so coaching definetely played an important role for them on their run.


I have never considered Rudy T a great basketball coach, and most people would agree, he’s not a great basketball coach. He’s a great motivator. Dream was the heart and soul of that team, through and through. 



> 8. The point I'm emphasizing here is that the Rockets were a much better team because they played as a unit and were consistent and clutch come playoff time. Otis Thorpe was actually a good player in 94-95, and was incredibly efficient with his 14 ppg and 6.9 rpg. He definetely could have been a better player if he took more shots, he was a 56% shooter from the field, I would take him over Campbell, who average 14.9 ppg and 8 rpg but was also not a good defender on power forwards like Malone and Barkely, and shot only 47% from the field


I agree with part of what you’re saying here. But Otis Thorpe was never all that. 



> 9. Smith was not as exciting offensive but definetely ran the offense much better than NVE, with the team, and showed up in the post season by hitting big shots. His 10.4 ppg and 4.0 apg were not that impressive in 94-95 but hit 48.5% of his shots and more importantly brought great leadership to the team which cannot be measured by numbers. He was also splitting time with Sam Cassell as well, who he helped make a better player.


NVE was a money postseason performer and clutch player in his prime. That shouldn’t be ignored. 



> 10. The Lakers may have been loaded top to bottom but they did not play good team ball, due to their personel and their lack of coaching. It's funny because the teams that beat them definetely had a better combo of players at the top (Olajuwon and Drexler, Stockton and Malone(twice), and Duncan and Robinson) and better coaches (Rudy T, Sloan, and Pop). Only when Kobe emerged as a star and Phil arrived were the Lakers able to emerge as champions. Still, Shaq alluded to that the Lakers did not play as a team. This is where you underrate Rudy T and his ability to assign roles to players whereas the lakers played too much one on one and were not a good defensive team. And it's not like they were close to becoming a championship team, they were easily beaten by the Rockets and swept by Jazz and Spurs.


Shaq alludes to a lot of things, not playing “as a team” is just Shaq’s way of saying he isn’t getting the ball enough. Hell, he even complained about it last season with the Heat after they barely lost in the ECF, basically blaming his teammates (or coaches or both, however you interpret it) for not getting him the ball enough.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> nah, your too low for me to come out of hibernation. don't think of yourself that highly okay?


Pssst, then how come the last post you made before your first one here was in April in a discussion that just happened to be with me (which you conveniently abandoned)? Coincidence? Nah. 



> once again, another useless comment by EHL


Do you deny you don’t have League Pass? Case closed.



> i can tell that you probably got your first real job sometime the past few months since you don't respond so quickly in the daytime now. its kinda of bummer though...most people get their first real jobs at 18 or 22 (depending on college)...you claim your what 28??


Haha, my posting times have stayed roughly the same for at least the past year, do the math (oh wait, we remember how good you are at that). What did you say you did again? Construction right? 



> you must not work in an environment that requires reading since you couldn't read that i said EJ and NVE talents are overvalued since they play on the Lakers


I think I missed the part where I said I gave a damn about your baseless opinion. Which, of course, is based on non-League Pass experience. 



> oh okay...so now you want to say that stats matter??


I never suggested otherwise. Read. Carefully. 



> whenever its most convenient for your argument eh? what a hippocrite.


It’s spelled _hypocrite_.



> just put it this way...no way in hell milwaukee would have traded big dog for EJ or NVE back in 97. take off the blinders already. you lost this argument big time. whenever you resort to such reasons as using 2 good role players in lieu of a superstar to justify your argument...you lost!!


Big Dog? A superstar? Bahahaha. Freaking kids these days. :laugh: 



> even if I do want to put in the effort of explaining something so simple to you, you still wouldn't get it because you have reading comprehension problems. why don't you just ask a rock. i'm sure theres plenty around.


I’m sorry, but you’re just not very good at insults. And really now, after all your previous losses, why on earth would you come back for more? Sadist? 



> hey, another monumental occasion for you EHL....you just did a response without ever saying the words 'GOOD LORD' or 'GOOD GOD'....
> 
> for old times sake...say it one more time in your next response! since we are talking about old times, whatever happened to that photo of kobe in a buff body that you superimposed???
> 
> make that your avatar again...cool?


lol, and you say _I_ have Kobe on my mind. Get over it, that was months ago. 

Damn, you must really have a thing for me to come out of hibernation for so long. I’m flattered, really.


----------



## ApheLion02 (Aug 5, 2005)

shobe42 said:


> wow... an athlete that cares for his legacy and aspires to be the best to ever do what he does...
> 
> this is what is wrong with sports...lol


Read my posts and subsequent ones and you will understand that I am not bashing his aspiration, but I don't like him because I feel that Kobe thinks he can improve his legacy by actively manufacturing situations to both in-game in and in the media to make himself seem better / his career and performances more dramatic.


----------



## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

EHL said:


> Pssst, then how come the last post you made before your first one here was in April in a discussion that just happened to be with me (which you conveniently abandoned)? Coincidence? Nah.


first off....what the hell is 'pssst'....you sound like an uneducated buffoon. why don't you practice your so called 'education before verbalization'.

and once again, your wrong. my last discussion was about the 76ers playoff chances and had nothing to do with you. boy, you sure are wrong often.





EHL said:


> Do you deny you don’t have League Pass? Case closed.


this retort just sounds like it came from a spoiled brat. i guess according to you then, people without league pass aren't knowledgeable about the NBA. another piece of advice for you....quit sppending daddys money on kobe products and your previous 'League pass'. try paying your own bills for a chance. admit it already, you never really worked. 

FYI, i do have league pass.




EHL said:


> I think I missed the part where I said I gave a damn about your baseless opinion. Which, of course, is based on non-League Pass experience.


hahaaa. do you know how ridiculous you sound. if you didn't give a damn, why did you respond to it. 

Kids, nowadays. 

GOOD GRIEF!! 

Oy!!!!




EHL said:


> I never suggested otherwise. Read. Carefully.


look at your past postings in this thread. Please learn how to read before you comment.





EHL said:


> It’s spelled _hypocrite_.


I see that you finally bought a dictionary. now get a job.





EHL said:


> Big Dog? A superstar? Bahahaha. Freaking kids these days. :laugh:


You really cannot read or your trying to avoid the topic. Its really not that difficult you know??





EHL said:


> I’m sorry, but you’re just not very good at insults. And really now, after all your previous losses, why on earth would you come back for more? Sadist?
> lol, and you say _I_ have Kobe on my mind. Get over it, that was months ago.
> Damn, you must really have a thing for me to come out of hibernation for so long. I’m flattered, really.


OY!!!

I already commented on this. so you're not gonna post up the kobe pic again?? even after I said PLEASE??? 

come on man....post it again!! or at least say 'GOOD LORD', or 'GOOD GRIEF', or how about 'Its quite simple stuff really'. Or 'OY'

You finally bought a dictionary.....now learn how to read it and expand your vocabulary.


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

^
^
^

Not that I have anything to do with your conversation, but typically when you call someone out on their grammer, spelling, etc..you have to make sure your grammer, spelling, etc.. are correct! Just my :twocents:! :whoknows:


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## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

ralaw said:


> ^
> ^
> ^
> 
> Not that I have anything to do with your conversation, but typically when you call someone out on their grammer, spelling, etc..you have to make sure your grammer, spelling, etc.. are correct! Just my :twocents:! :whoknows:


ralaw,

I wasn't calling him out on his grammar or spelling, i was calling him out on his vocabulary. his constant use of condescending language such as the ones I quoted do nothing for the debate. in fact, quite often he just responds with his typical 'Good lord' to a sentence I made. how in the world do you respond to that?? thats why I'm giving him a taste of his own medicine and showing him how ridiculous he sounds.

as for grammer and spelling, it was HIM that called me out. people often type fast and since this is not a formal board, grammar and spelling mistakes are often. BUT, when you use EHL's limited vocabulary, its intentional.


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

jc76ers said:


> ralaw,
> 
> I wasn't calling him out on his grammar or spelling, i was calling him out on his vocabulary. his constant use of condescending language such as the ones I quoted do nothing for the debate. in fact, quite often he just responds with his typical 'Good lord' to a sentence I made. how in the world do you respond to that?? thats why I'm giving him a taste of his own medicine and showing him how ridiculous he sounds.
> 
> as for grammer and spelling, it was HIM that called me out. people often type fast and since this is not a formal board, grammar and spelling mistakes are often. BUT, when you use EHL's limited vocabulary, its intentional.


I see maybe I should have read more.....I would have understood the context! My fault!


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> first off....what the hell is 'pssst'....you sound like an uneducated buffoon. why don't you practice your so called 'education before verbalization'.


It’s truly stunning that you, of all people, would call someone out on their diction. :laugh:



> and once again, your wrong. my last discussion was about the 76ers playoff chances and had nothing to do with you. boy, you sure are wrong often.


Yeah that’s right, _99%_ of your last few posts before your hiatus were about me. 



> this retort just sounds like it came from a spoiled brat. i guess according to you then, people without league pass aren't knowledgeable about the NBA.


Think about it this way; how on earth do people who don’t have League Pass or its equivalent know a damn thing about other NBA teams besides their home town team? Are you really this dense? :uhoh:



> another piece of advice for you....quit sppending daddys money on kobe products and your previous 'League pass'. try paying your own bills for a chance. admit it already, you never really worked.


This is funny coming from the guy who has the grammar and spelling of an 8 year old. 



> FYI, i do have league pass.


Liar. 



> hahaaa. do you know how ridiculous you sound. if you didn't give a damn, why did you respond to it.
> 
> Kids, nowadays.
> 
> ...


Nice attempt, but I’m funnier. 



> ook at your past postings in this thread. Please learn how to read before you comment.


Point them out specifically or continue to be humiliated. 



> I see that you finally bought a dictionary. now get a job.


The funny bit isn’t your strong suit. I suggest Candy Land.



> You really cannot read or your trying to avoid the topic. Its really not that difficult you know??


Please at least attempt to make some sense. This is a message board not AOL chat. 



> OY!!!
> 
> I already commented on this. so you're not gonna post up the kobe pic again?? even after I said PLEASE???
> 
> ...


I almost can’t believe the master of bad punctuation, spelling, diction, etc. is telling me he’s “glad” I brought a dictionary. :rofl: 



> as for grammer and spelling, it was HIM that called me out. people often type fast and since this is not a formal board, grammar and spelling mistakes are often. BUT, when you use EHL's limited vocabulary, its intentional.


ROFL, double talk. You have the syntax of an 8 year old. No joke dude, it’s just sad.


----------



## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

Catfight :biggrin:


----------



## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

EHL said:


> It’s truly stunning that you, of all people, would call someone out on their diction. :laugh:


do you even READ my postings or do you just start rambling nonsense all the time?? based on your history, i think its the latter. 





EHL said:


> Yeah that’s right, _99%_ of your last few posts before your hiatus were about me.


hahahaaa...I just thought of something. I'm gonna do your 'strategy' of picking on some specific detail of a post and completely using it as a basis to nullify the opposing statements even though I know its an estimate or a simple error.

so lets see....you say 99% of my posts are about you?? well, before this post, i had 263. so that would mean at least 261 posts were about you. that means I could only have 2 posts that aren't directed at you (for those that are a little slow, hint hint...EHL). Go check on my posting history. I have way more posts that aren't even about you. So once again (using the infamous EHL strategy) you just don't seem to be very bright because you can't even do simple mathematics. Did you even finish high school?

hahaaahaaa!! Now we can pick on this mathematical error for another 3 pages and laugh at how you can't do simple math.




EHL said:


> Think about it this way; how on earth do people who don’t have League Pass or its equivalent know a damn thing about other NBA teams besides their home town team? Are you really this dense? :uhoh:


OY!! GOOD LORD!! you never said 'or equivalent' before. you only said 'League Pass'. are you gonna do your usual denial whenever your losing an argument?? 



EHL said:


> Nice attempt, but I’m funnier.


then work for a circus...but I doubt you will succeed as a clown. more likely to succeed as 'most irrational' poster.

To take another page out of your book, you are just being completely 'OWNED'. Give it up or prepare for more humiliation.

and just for the hell of it since you're too ashamed to state it now...
OY!!!


----------



## ApheLion02 (Aug 5, 2005)

So....is anyone taking bets?


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> do you even READ my postings or do you just start rambling nonsense all the time?? based on your history, i think its the latter.


Stop pretending you’re an authority on anything related to the English language, it’s just sad. 



> hahahaaa...I just thought of something. I'm gonna do your 'strategy' of picking on some specific detail of a post and completely using it as a basis to nullify the opposing statements even though I know its an estimate or a simple error.
> 
> so lets see....you say 99% of my posts are about you?? well, before this post, i had 263. so that would mean at least 261 posts were about you. that means I could only have 2 posts that aren't directed at you (for those that are a little slow, hint hint...EHL). Go check on my posting history. I have way more posts that aren't even about you. So once again (using the infamous EHL strategy) you just don't seem to be very bright because you can't even do simple mathematics. Did you even finish high school?


Haha, even when you think you win you still lose. LMAO at taking “99%” literally. 



> hahaaahaaa!! Now we can pick on this mathematical error for another 3 pages and laugh at how you can't do simple math.


Sorry man, but nothing tops your display of ineptitude here. Nothing will ever change it, get over it my friend. 



> OY!! GOOD LORD!! you never said 'or equivalent' before. you only said 'League Pass'. are you gonna do your usual denial whenever your losing an argument??


It was called something other than League Pass quite a number of years ago, and since this was originally about the 96-97 season, that would in fact be a number of years ago. But again, you wouldn’t know that, and you asking me about “or equivalent” is just further proof you never watched ball in the 90’s, or even recently for that matter. Hell, do you have any clue what other subscription services are available for people who want to watch more than just their home town team? Zero my friend, zero, League Pass is it right now. 

It’s just sad you’re this badly misinformed that you would claim otherwise.



> then work for a circus...but I doubt you will succeed as a clown. more likely to succeed as 'most irrational' poster.


Again, comedy is just not your style. You not only lack the wit, but the timing (which is quite an achievement considering this is the Internet) and most certainly command of the English language. 

Oh, and FYI, it was really funny to see your sad vendetta taken to the Laker forum. But please, spare us the garbage in the future.


----------



## Ghost (Jun 21, 2002)

I have a quick question for you posters? How come Tex Winter has never been a head coach, if i'm right hasn't he always phil's assistant.


----------



## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

EHL said:


> Stop pretending you’re an authority on anything related to the English language, it’s just sad.


hahaaa....weren't you the one that just bought their first dictionary just a few months ago? 



EHL said:


> Haha, even when you think you win you still lose. LMAO at taking “99%” literally.


Really...your just not very bright. Whenever a so called "28 year old" can't figure out what 99% of 263 is....theres problems.







EHL said:


> Sorry man, but nothing tops your display of ineptitude here. Nothing will ever change it, get over it my friend.


hahaaaahaa...you STILL don't get it do you??? I can't believe theres actually someone in the world that has a brain that functions this slow. I make fun of your "99%" math skills is because you make such a big fuss over a computational error to the point that it diverges from the debate content because you were on the losing end. Its proven history. Whenever someone bad mouths your hero kobe, you became very irrational. Seriously, Get some help!!!!




EHL said:


> It was called something other than League Pass quite a number of years ago, and since this was originally about the 96-97 season, that would in fact be a number of years ago. But again, you wouldn’t know that, and you asking me about “or equivalent” is just further proof you never watched ball in the 90’s, or even recently for that matter. Hell, do you have any clue what other subscription services are available for people who want to watch more than just their home town team? Zero my friend, zero, League Pass is it right now.


Now here you go again being that moronic spoiled brat. I really don't know what your point is above. This league pass thing started out because you like to discredit my argument because you claim that I don't have league pass. In your one-sided, spoiled-childlike mind, you fail to realize that there are many channels to accumulate information about the NBA - internet, magazines, attending actual games, etc. Sure, league pass provides access to most of the games, but to completely discredit anyone that actually doesn't have league pass is irrational. and you ehl, is the king of irrationality when it comes to your hero boy kobe. and even though if you STILL think "league pass or nothing" is the way to be informed about the NBA, your argument is complete garbage since i do subscribe to league pass. If you still believe in the league pass argument, i bet a lot of your supporters here don't have league pass...so does that mean they know nothing about the NBA???

I really don't know why I wrote this whole explanation to you. Your probably gonna most likely retort with nonsense thats not even relevant to my comment or just deny that i have league pass. grow up already!!




EHL said:


> Again, comedy is just not your style. You not only lack the wit, but the timing (which is quite an achievement considering this is the Internet) and most certainly command of the English language.
> 
> Oh, and FYI, it was really funny to see your sad vendetta taken to the Laker forum. But please, spare us the garbage in the future.


seriously EHL, for your own sake, why don't you step back for a second and think about how irrational you are when it comes to comments about kobe. 
do you see any other diehard kobe supporters attacking other posters because they rank kobe 3 spots lower than them? 

oh, and btw....how come you still say 'GOOD lord' or 'Good grief' or 'Oy' to other posters but not to me even though I am requesting you??? hahaaa!!


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

The Mix said:


> Catfight :biggrin:


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Ghost said:


> I have a quick question for you posters? How come Tex Winter has never been a head coach, if i'm right hasn't he always phil's assistant.


He hasn't always assisted Phil. He was the head coach for Kansas State in the 50's and 60s. His friendship with Jerry Krause found him a job working as a part of the coaching staff in Chicago when Jerry became the GM. He was an ast coach and so was Phil. When Doug was fired, Phil took the head coaching job and Tex then assisted Phil to 9 titles.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> hahaaa....weren't you the one that just bought their first dictionary just a few months ago?


Again, do you honestly believe you’re funny? 



> Really...your just not very bright. Whenever a so called "28 year old" can't figure out what 99% of 263 is....theres problems.


See previous comment. Also, do you speak the English language natively? That’s an honest question, your grammar suggests English is not your first language. 



> hahaaaahaa...you STILL don't get it do you??? I can't believe theres actually someone in the world that has a brain that functions this slow. I make fun of your "99%" math skills is because you make such a big fuss over a computational error to the point that it diverges from the debate content because you were on the losing end. Its proven history. Whenever someone bad mouths your hero kobe, you became very irrational. Seriously, Get some help!!!!


All this above paragraph proves is that you took a comment I made that was clearly rhetorical (“99%”) and turned it into something it was not meant to be taken as (literal), and then compared that to a computational error you made a while back that clearly weakened your argument, but that you swore up and down was calculated correctly.

That’s the difference; you clearly couldn’t (still can’t?) add numbers, and well, I clearly can. 



> Now here you go again being that moronic spoiled brat. I really don't know what your point is above. This league pass thing started out because you like to discredit my argument because you claim that I don't have league pass. In your one-sided, spoiled-childlike mind, you fail to realize that there are many channels to accumulate information about the NBA - internet, magazines, attending actual games, etc. Sure, league pass provides access to most of the games, but to completely discredit anyone that actually doesn't have league pass is irrational.


It’s not the _least_ bit rational. Here are some facts rational people know about that you clearly aren’t aware of:

1) League Pass is currently the *only* outlet basketball fans have to view NBA basketball teams outside of their home town team. It's fact, case closed, get over it. 

2) There is no physical way in this universe that anyone can attend enough games that it would make them well informed enough to discuss those players/teams. 

3) Magazines and Internet message boards cannot fill in the void of having never (or barely) seen a player play ball before. Getting other people’s analysis and opinions on players/teams only matters if you’ve actually seen them play. In your case, you haven’t seen them play, so your opinion is irrelevant. 



> and you ehl, is the king of irrationality when it comes to your hero boy kobe. and even though if you STILL think "league pass or nothing" is the way to be informed about the NBA, your argument is complete garbage since i do subscribe to league pass. If you still believe in the league pass argument, i bet a lot of your supporters here don't have league pass...so does that mean they know nothing about the NBA???


Yes, if they don’t have League Pass, never had, or only barely watched League Pass games, you very likely don’t deserve to have an opinion. Which is why you don’t see me talking about a team like, say, the Atlanta Hawks. I don’t know much about any of their players, team, or coaches other than that they suck. 



> I really don't know why I wrote this whole explanation to you. Your probably gonna most likely retort with nonsense thats not even relevant to my comment or just deny that i have league pass. grow up already!!


You don’t have League Pass, it’s fact. 



> seriously EHL, for your own sake, why don't you step back for a second and think about how irrational you are when it comes to comments about kobe.
> do you see any other diehard kobe supporters attacking other posters because they rank kobe 3 spots lower than them?


Link the thread in question and I’ll give you the reason I even bothered replying to your fluff. Otherwise, stop pretending you’re a bastion of logic. 



> oh, and btw....how come you still say 'GOOD lord' or 'Good grief' or 'Oy' to other posters but not to me even though I am requesting you??? hahaaa!!


Oy, 9-5 my ***. :laugh:


----------



## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

EHL said:


> 1) League Pass is currently the *only* outlet basketball fans have to view NBA basketball teams outside of their home town team. It's fact, case closed, get over it.


Legally, that is.


----------



## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Spriggan said:


> Legally, that is.


Bah, OK, there's that one loophole. :tongue:


----------



## Ghost (Jun 21, 2002)

IV said:


> He hasn't always assisted Phil. He was the head coach for Kansas State in the 50's and 60s. His friendship with Jerry Krause found him a job working as a part of the coaching staff in Chicago when Jerry became the GM. He was an ast coach and so was Phil. When Doug was fired, Phil took the head coaching job and Tex then assisted Phil to 9 titles.



Thanks for the Info, anyway I think he should get a Head coaching Job.


----------



## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Ghost said:


> Thanks for the Info, anyway I think he should get a Head coaching Job.


 He's waaay too old for that. BTW, nice job exposing jc, EHL. :rofl:


----------



## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

EHL said:


> Again, do you honestly believe you’re funny?


do you honestly believe you make any sense at all? or how about do you honestly believe your kobes girlfriend?





EHL said:


> See previous comment. Also, do you speak the English language natively? That’s an honest question, your grammar suggests English is not your first language.


did you ever get into physical fights just because someone said something "negative" about kobe? thats an honest question. 





EHL said:


> All this above paragraph proves is that you took a comment I made that was clearly rhetorical (“99%”) and turned it into something it was not meant to be taken as (literal), and then compared that to a computational error you made a while back that clearly weakened your argument, but that you swore up and down was calculated correctly.


go back and read the thread again. oh wait, you have problems reading. well. i guesss your just out of luck then. too bad.

really, 99% of 263 is not that tough to calculate.





EHL said:


> That’s the difference; you clearly couldn’t (still can’t?) add numbers, and well, I clearly can.


see above. haahaaa. LMAO!!






EHL said:


> It’s not the _least_ bit rational. Here are some facts rational people know about that you clearly aren’t aware of:
> 
> 1) League Pass is currently the *only* outlet basketball fans have to view NBA basketball teams outside of their home town team. It's fact, case closed, get over it.
> 
> ...


here you go trying to diverge from the argument again. to sum it up, your argument is that if you don't have league pass, you don't know anything about the NBA. so from your argument, lets say...if kobe doesn't have league pass, then he doesn't know anything about the NBA right? how about magic johnson? how about phil jackson? see, your wrong again. most likely they do have league pass. but what if they didn't? are their comments then less valid than yours (just because YOU have league pass?!?! hahaa) what about if you do have league pass, but you never watched it??? or how about if you have league pass, but only watch the lakers? (hint hint...maybe you EHL???)
what about if they are from a different country where directv is not accessible? i guess they know nothing about the NBA then huh?? you truly are the most one-sided irrational poster on this board.

to equate knowledgeable nba fans with league pass is a flawed statement. i'm sure you insulted many laker/kobe fans in this thread. aren't there many laker/kobe fans on this board that reside outside the US? you just said their opinions are worthless, EHL. way to go.




EHL said:


> Yes, if they don’t have League Pass, never had, or only barely watched League Pass games, you very likely don’t deserve to have an opinion. Which is why you don’t see me talking about a team like, say, the Atlanta Hawks. I don’t know much about any of their players, team, or coaches other than that they suck.


keep it up EHL. you just insulted more laker/kobe fans on this board. real smart.

of course, this league pass argument is irrelevant because i do have league pass. your just trying really hard to change the subject because your on the losing end again as usual.




EHL said:


> Link the thread in question and I’ll give you the reason I even bothered replying to your fluff. Otherwise, stop pretending you’re a bastion of logic.


go look it up yourself. you seem to have plenty of time. its not like you really work. Since you had enough time to superimpose kobe's face onto a buff body and make it your avatar, you should have plenty of time to look it up.



EHL said:


> Oy, 9-5 my ***. :laugh:


its about time. GOOD DOG!! now can you roll over? or how about put up that avatar again?

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> He's waaay too old for that. BTW, nice job exposing jc, EHL. :rofl:


did EHL pay you his lunch money to say that? 

you don't have league pass. EHL said your opinion is worthless. Are you still gonna kiss his ***?


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

jc76ers said:


> did EHL pay you his lunch money to say that?
> 
> you don't have league pass. EHL said your opinion is worthless. Are you still gonna kiss his ***?


Oh, come on, jc... Take your beating like a man! :rofl:


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## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Oh, come on, jc... Take your beating like a man! :rofl:


paulo,
i noticed your from portugal. do you have league pass? if not, ehl says you don't deserve to have an opinion on the nba/lakers/kobe?. you agree?


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

I have league pass. I have an opinion and you don't! Hahaha!


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

jc76ers said:


> paulo,
> i noticed your from portugal.


Yeah, but i travel a lot... 



> do you have league pass? if not, ehl says you don't deserve to have an opinion on the nba/lakers/kobe?. you agree?


I don't think that's what EHL says.
I think that in your particular case, with you being such a... ahem... *special* poster, he believes that you should get League Pass to improve your... eh... *particular* way of viewing the game...


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Portugal is the mecca of NBA basketball.


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## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> I don't think that's what EHL says.
> I think that in your particular case, with you being such a... ahem... *special* poster, he believes that you should get League Pass to improve your... eh... *particular* way of viewing the game...


No......EHL said "Yes, if they don’t have League Pass, never had, or only barely watched League Pass games, you very likely don’t deserve to have an opinion".

I think its pretty clear what EHL said. No League pass=No Opinion. Paulo, you don't have league pass. directv is not accessible in portugal. Therefore, from the EHL school of logic, your opinion is worthless. 

and you want to keep defending this guy?!???


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> do you honestly believe you make any sense at all? or how about do you honestly believe your kobes girlfriend?


As I said before, you’re not witty or funny. I’d just drop it altogether unless you really believe you have comedic talent. 



> did you ever get into physical fights just because someone said something "negative" about kobe? thats an honest question.


LOL, I knew it! You aren’t from around here. Oh, and no, definitely not, I don’t care nearly enough about Kobe or the Lakers to get into “physical fights”. 



> go back and read the thread again. oh wait, you have problems reading. well. i guesss your just out of luck then. too bad.


FYI, this only works when it makes the slightest bit of sense. 



> really, 99% of 263 is not that tough to calculate.


Already explained. Reread the previous post if you’re still confused. Take reading comp classes if the answer still alludes you.



> here you go trying to diverge from the argument again. to sum it up, your argument is that if you don't have league pass, you don't know anything about the NBA.


If you don’t have League Pass or some type of equivalent you don’t know anything about the modern NBA game outside of your home team(s). That’s correct. I’m glad you were able to make that very simple and obvious conclusion based on what I’ve said 1000 times, congrats!



> so from your argument, lets say...if kobe doesn't have league pass, then he doesn't know anything about the NBA right?


:rofl: Kobe Bryant and any NBA player that actually _plays_ in the freaking NBA knows about other teams because they play _against_ them night in and night out for years and years, not including the offseason. 

Are you honestly this dense? :laugh:



> how about magic johnson? how about phil jackson? see, your wrong again. most likely they do have league pass. but what if they didn't?


Phil Jackson has been coaching nearly non-stop in the NBA for 15 years, including modern NBA ball (save for last season). Night in and night out he sees them on the floor, and as a head coach he has to review hours of film. You’re more of a dunce than I originally thought if you honestly believe Phil Jackson needs League Pass to know anything about the NBA when he’s a freaking NBA head coach. 



> are their comments then less valid than yours (just because YOU have league pass?!?! hahaa) what about if you do have league pass, but you never watched it???


Are you being serious? Do you really need clarification on a situation like that? Too funny. :laugh: Yeah, sure jc, I guess it would be more accurate to say “If they don’t _watch_ League Pass”. I guess I typed too fast for you. 



> or how about if you have league pass, but only watch the lakers? (hint hint...maybe you EHL???)


And here it is folks, the final evidence that proves jc doesn’t have League Pass. If you actually had League Pass you’d know that most of the time (in fact, the vast majority) you don’t get your local team (for me, the Lakers) broadcasted on League Pass. It’s blacked out.

But hey, your lie was funny while it lasted my friend.



> what about if they are from a different country where directv is not accessible? i guess they know nothing about the NBA then huh?? you truly are the most one-sided irrational poster on this board.


As I said before, if they have a equivalent to League Pass, then they should know quite a great deal. Oh wait, I forgot, I need to clarify things like this to you, because apparently you didn't realize that you actually need to _watch_ League Pass. Forgive me, I sometimes forget how I have to spell things out for you. 



> to equate knowledgeable nba fans with league pass is a flawed statement. i'm sure you insulted many laker/kobe fans in this thread. aren't there many laker/kobe fans on this board that reside outside the US? you just said their opinions are worthless, EHL. way to go


Boy, you’re just not too fast on the uptake. :laugh:



> keep it up EHL. you just insulted more laker/kobe fans on this board. real smart.


Not really. If you knew anything about basketball you’d know that Laker fans don’t need League Pass to watch Laker basketball, as they have local networks to broadcast the Laker games free of additional fees beyond basic cable or standard cable. If you knew a thing about the NBA you’d know that this applies to all teams in the NBA; the fans get the majority of their local team’s games broadcasted on basic/standard cable without having to order a specialized sports service like League Pass. Since most of these fans aren’t commenting on teams they don’t watch (in other words, all the teams outside of their home town team), they are not being insulted in the least bit. 

Then again, I’m talking to a guy that needed clarification on whether there are scenarios where people order League Pass but never watch it. 



> of course, this league pass argument is irrelevant because i do have league pass. your just trying really hard to change the subject because your on the losing end again as usual.


LMAO. See a few comments up. You have LP? A 9-5 job? Freaking BS. 



> go look it up yourself. you seem to have plenty of time.


The burden is on your shoulders my son. Don’t pansy out on a statement you can’t back up. But hey, we all know you won’t. 



> its not like you really work. Since you had enough time to superimpose kobe's face onto a buff body and make it your avatar, you should have plenty of time to look it up.


Wow, this just gets older and less funny by the day. You must really think of Kobe a lot if that avatar is still on your mind. :laugh:



jc76ers said:


> No......EHL said "Yes, if they don’t have League Pass, never had, or only barely watched League Pass games, you very likely don’t deserve to have an opinion".
> 
> I think its pretty clear what EHL said. No League pass=No Opinion. Paulo, you don't have league pass. directv is not accessible in portugal. Therefore, from the EHL school of logic, your opinion is worthless.
> 
> and you want to keep defending this guy?!???


Except Paulo doesn’t claim to be an expert on a subject he knows nothing about, while you do. You comment on things you don’t know about (Kobe, Lakers, NBA, etc.), while Paulo comments on things he knows _a lot_ about (40+ years of Lakers basketball). Paulo doesn’t claim he knows the ins and outs of the Atlanta Hawks roster, and for good reason; he doesn’t watch a lot of Hawks basketball (I can’t blame him, they suck balls).

Your opinion on, well, everything in this thread is like me or Paulo talking about the Atlanta Hawks; we don't know a damn thing about them.


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

Another EHL fight...


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

MC AK said:


> Another EHL fight...


You know me MC. Besides, don't you like the "cat fights", as you used to say? 

By the way, is the draft in my forum going OK? Need any help?


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

EHL said:


> You know me MC. Besides, don't you like the "cat fights", as you used to say?
> 
> By the way, is the draft in my forum going OK? Need any help?


I see where my comments are not needed...


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## Shady* (Jul 3, 2005)

And yes, I enjoy using your dog house...


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Good!


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## Nightfly (Sep 24, 2002)

*This is closed for the time being because the this thread has veered way off the original topic.

I'll consider re-opening it once I go through and edit out the childish antics of several posters in this thread.

People, PLEASE read the rules thread that is stuck on this forum! In it you would find that things like baiting and "calling out" other posters is not allowed!

PM me if you have any questions.*


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