# Ray Clay



## BullsFan23 (Jul 3, 2002)

I know I'm a little late here but does anyone know why Ray Clay was fired?

Thanks


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

I don't believe a specific reason was ever given... just the typical vague "we're going to go in a different direction".


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

It has been intimated it was because of comments Clay made that were critical of the organization and their treatment of Michael Jordan when he made his return to Chicago this past season.

If you want to believe that it is because they are looking to go in a "new direction" then feel free.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> It has been intimated it was because of comments Clay made that were critical of the organization and their treatment of Michael Jordan when he made his return to Chicago this past season.


Unsubstantiated rumors. I might as well speculate it was because Clay missed a number of games last season. Maybe the Bulls simply expected their PA announcer to, I don't know, show up for all the games?

Even if Clay's comments about the Jordan introduction were the reason, I'd say it's a pretty legitimate one. I would think the last thing an organization needs is their PA announcer publically criticizing the handling of what was a delicate situation to begin with. I would expect Clay to be more of a team player in such a situation.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

My understanding was that he had missed a whole lot of games last season and that management was just tired of it.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

I am not sure how unsubstantiated it is when Clay mentions the organizations displeasure at him for voicing his opinion of MJ to someone not in the organization. The guy gave his opinion and was fired for it.

If you think it is a legitimate reason to fire someone because they gave a personal opinion on something they have every right to give an opinion on, then nothing I can say will change it.

Dickie will be around shortly to give you the details on how his good friend the Marketing guy did the firing.


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## RealFan (Jun 12, 2002)

Ray Clay was fired for not showing up consistently for his job. After he got fired, he concocted some BS about how he wanted to do more for MJ upon his return. 

Ray Clay was not fired for voicing his opinion. The Bulls actually let him finish out the season and then made a decision. Had there been dismay over the MJ situation, he would have been dismissed right then and there.

Also, Ray Clay, like most of us who work for a company, is an "at will" employee. He can be fired for whatever reason as long as discrimination is not involved. Firing someone for differences over opinion is completely legitimate.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Does this *b*oard *c*ome wit*h* an ignore feature?


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by *RealFan *
> Ray Clay was fired for not showing up consistently for his job. After he got fired, he concocted some BS about how he wanted to do more for MJ upon his return.
> 
> Ray Clay was not fired for voicing his opinion. The Bulls actually let him finish out the season and then made a decision. Had there been dismay over the MJ situation, he would have been dismissed right then and there.
> ...


Ray Clay is the only one speaking out about it. Was he not showing up consistently or was he pushed to the side to try out new talent?

He probably has a year to year contract and was not resigned. Being an at-will employee does not mean it is a legitimate reason to be fired for his opinion. It just means that Krause does not need a legitimate reason to fire him.

As a side note to Truebluefan or KC, do you feel like dealing with gettinbranded sooner rather than later?


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by *gettinbranded *
> Does this *b*oard *c*ome wit*h* an ignore feature?


Yes we have ignore here.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> 
> 
> Ray Clay is the only one speaking out about it. Was he not showing up consistently or was he pushed to the side to try out new talent?
> ...


BCH if you have a problem with someone here take it to me PM. 

That goes for everyone in here. No need to keep it public. I do have PM.

Let me add one more thing to this post. It is true i am moderator of this bulls board but this is how this board works here. All the moderators get together with Ron and discuss particular problems that each are having with their respective boards and we vote with Ron on what should be done in most major cases. So its like a team effort. All moderators plus Ron. I think thats a nice thing to have. It keeps a moderator from abusing his power so to speak. So when someone PMs me and it takes me a day or so to reply its either because i am away or because the matter is being discussed with the reast of the moderators and Ron.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Ok maybe we can settle this issue once and for all. Does anyone have the link to when he was fired and the follow up articles? Maybe we can settle it finally. I know that it wasn't settled over at realgm.

BCH. Your opinion is welcomed and we invite you to back up your comments about JK firing Ray for difference of opinion. In fact please show us where it was JKs job to fire Ray. If you can do that with conrete proof then we can start to believe you. Otherwise it is just hearsay when you say JK fired Ray for difference of opinion and you state it as fact. And whose to say JK even knew about it? All i am saying is show us the proof to back up your statement thats all. 

From what i remember, Ray did mention that. But was JKs name even brought up? Someone help me out here. Also the fact that Ray said such a thing, does that mean thats what really happened?


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> Being an at-will employee does not mean it is a legitimate reason to be fired for his opinion. It just means that Krause does not need a legitimate reason to fire him.


Continuing on the assumption that Clay's comments were the reason he was fired... you make it sound as if Clay was opining that he prefers Burger King over McDonalds. His comments were directly critical of the organization for which he worked. I don't know of any company where that sort of thing would be tolerated.

Do you really think that employees of all the other sports teams in the world agree with every decision those organizations make? If the Rockets PA announcer thinks Yao Ming is going to be a bigger stiff than Manute Bol, that makes it OK to publically voice that opinion?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Uh, I remember reading that Krause didn't even KNOW Clay was fired. Evidently the firing was handled entirely by their marketing guy.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

well crap i cant attach the WAV file i have with why Ray Clay was fired... if u want it I can e mail it to you, i put it in a zip file its not big at all... but it wont let me attach it... HE SAYS it was because he wanted to give MJ a special intro

i dont know why either its only 153KBs its in a zip file?


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

hey ok i found the link on ESPN with his interview on why he was fired, all of you go here and select your connection speed and it will play:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/broadband/players/audiochoose?id=1382963#


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

This will probably be cleared up once and for all after the first home game. The intro will probably be completely different. Complete w/ some hip-hop track and shots of the Bulls players dunking. In other words, a different direction. 

If it's still the Alan Parsons Project and the same type of video footage of a Bull running down the street then I guess he was fired for other reasons.

What do you guys think the new intro will be like? My dream of keeping the same music but instead having footage of Jerry Krause running throughout Chicago in a suit probably won't be realized. (The beauty of this sick fantasy would be when it gets to the footage of krause running up to the UNited Center the real Krause runs onto the gym floor. People in the UC would be utterly speechless at this horror.)

I have a fear that it is going to be shots of the guys dunking and typical crap like everyone else.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

Thanks for the clip, Hawk, but nowhere in it does it indicate what the reason was the Clay was fired.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

he said he thinks it was because he wanted to give MJ his USUAL intro


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by *HAWK23 *
> hey ok i found the link on ESPN with his interview on why he was fired, all of you go here and select your connection speed and it will play:
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/broadband/players/audiochoose?id=1382963#


It won't play for me.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

Krause and wether he fired Clay or not.

Krause runs the team. The Marketing guy answers to him and even if it was the marketing guy that pulled the trigger it is naive to think it was done with out Krause being in the know. All I need to do is look at what JK is in the organization to know what he is capable of doing.

I say Krause because I fully believe it is synonymous with the Bulls organiaztion and Krause may not own the club but he is the guy right under the guy.

I think clay has every right to voice his opinnon when asked. He was asked his personal feelings about the matter, not his professional opinion. He gave his personal feelings that he wanted to give MJ a trbute and announce him like he had when he played for the Bulls. This was vetoed and he did it the way he was asked. Now if he had rebeled and did it anyway, I could see him getting fired for it. His comments were more about what he wanted to do and how he was denied, not about how he was bitter. To get fired over it is ludicrous.

As for whether there is a new intro or not with the music or the Bulls cartoon, Clay could have read the names just as well as whoever replaces him. He did not symbolize one way to do it, but rather a voice that is recognizable as part of the Bulls.

At the end of the day it is a small matter but it is indicative of the organization. And when I say organization you can read into what I mean through my earlier comments.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

I am done with this thread. Here is a link to another board where it is discussed in detail.

Incidentally, I was banned from that same board for this very thread. Go figure.

http://realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?topic=53973&forum=10&start=45


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

More unsubstantiated assumptions from BCH.

It is entirely possible, and even likely, that Krause has given Steve Schanwald total control over all matters related to the PA announcer and player introductions. It's called delegating authority. Or I suppose you believe that Krause also personally selects what type of flowers are planted outside the Berto Center?

I take it by your lack of respones to my analogous question about Yao Ming that you _have_ no response.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> Krause and wether he fired Clay or not.
> 
> Krause runs the team. The Marketing guy answers to him and even if it was the marketing guy that pulled the trigger it is naive to think it was done with out Krause being in the know. All I need to do is look at what JK is in the organization to know what he is capable of doing.
> ...


BCH its still just your assumption. I am asking for all to give this board real proof that it was JK who fired Ray. And the real reason for it. Its still just an opinion. We need real proof that it was or it wasn't, otherwise, we have a difference of opinions that are deadlocked.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

Ray Clay Q & A (this has nothing to do with him being fired-

http://mapage.noos.fr/blacktag/voice.htm

just a bunch of questions about how it is/was being an announcer for the bulls over the years


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Kneepad *
> More unsubstantiated assumptions from BCH.
> 
> It is entirely possible, and even likely, that Krause has given Steve Schanwald total control over all matters related to the PA announcer and player introductions. It's called delegating authority. Or I suppose you believe that Krause also personally selects what type of flowers are planted outside the Berto Center?
> ...


No. i didn't respond because you made a poor analogy. The Houston PA announcer is in no position to make judgement calls on talent. Ray Clay made his introduction of Jordan famous. He was there for the whole experience. He is fully qualified on giving his opinion on how he felt he should announce Jordan.

I didn't point this out because I thought it was obvious, but I will be more than happy to answer if you demand I address each and every point you make. 

I never said that Schanwald didn't fire the guy, I am saying that to think it was done without the knowledge/approval/blessing of Krause is naive. The fact that it was picked up by national media indicates that if it didn't, then Krause is delegating authority to the wrong people.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by *truebluefan *
> 
> 
> BCH its still just your assumption. I am asking for all to give this board real proof that it was JK who fired Ray. And the real reason for it. Its still just an opinion. We need real proof that it was or it wasn't, otherwise, we have a difference of opinions that are deadlocked.


Truebluefan,

My argument is based on more fact than any other. Krause runs the organization. That is without a doubt. If blame is going to fall, it is going to fall on him. I am at least giving him enough credit to put him in a position to be in control of something like this. It is hilious to think a joe schmoe PR guy does this without fully realizing the ramifications and advising Krause of it first.

As for the reason, again I have most of the facts on my side. There is no doubt that Clay said how he wanted to announce MJ and how he was told no. This was made public. His firing was addressed witht he statement the Bulls wanted to go in a new direction. We can only go with what we have seen.

I am depending upon insinuation the least out of anyone even debating this.


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## Chops (May 30, 2002)

It was only a matter of time......


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

I guess my standpoint is this:

If Krause did decide to have Clay fired b/c he said publicly that he wanted to announce MJ like he used to, who cares? If I worked for the Bulls I would know that there are some things you don't take to the media. It's common knowledge that Krause and Jordan have a bad relationship. Krause is your current employer. Jordan is no longer a part of the company. And as harsh and short-sided as this sounds, I would have felt kind of crappy being a member of the Bulls and hearing MY pa announcer give the other team the home team treatment. These guys know what's up and know who the fans were there to see but at the same time - you're already living in his huge *** shadow. You're already playing in Mike's house with his banners and statue and "sacred" locker. Krause is trying to give these new guys a sense of idenity and make them seem like the stars. If I were the Bulls PA announcer I would not do anything to jeapordize that sweet job. Clay knows Krause. He knows what will piss him off. Maybe he didn't think he'd lose his job for stating an opinion but I guess he learned the hard way.

If that's what the reason was.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

I remember when Pippen came back to the United Center for his first time as a Rocket, we gave him a WHOLE tribute, music, highlights, a bunch of stuff... Jordan should have atlest gotten something like that, but then again it was Krause's decision to trade Pippen so I guess Krause thought it was OK to give him something...


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## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by *KC *
> It was only a matter of time......


You said a mouthful, KC. :no:


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Lizzy *
> I guess my standpoint is this:
> 
> If Krause did decide to have Clay fired b/c he said publicly that he wanted to announce MJ like he used to, who cares? If I worked for the Bulls I would know that there are some things you don't take to the media. It's common knowledge that Krause and Jordan have a bad relationship. Krause is your current employer. Jordan is no longer a part of the company. And as harsh and short-sided as this sounds, I would have felt kind of crappy being a member of the Bulls and hearing MY pa announcer give the other team the home team treatment. These guys know what's up and know who the fans were there to see but at the same time - you're already living in his huge *** shadow. You're already playing in Mike's house with his banners and statue and "sacred" locker. Krause is trying to give these new guys a sense of idenity and make them seem like the stars. If I were the Bulls PA announcer I would not do anything to jeapordize that sweet job. Clay knows Krause. He knows what will piss him off. Maybe he didn't think he'd lose his job for stating an opinion but I guess he learned the hard way.
> ...


You make a point. And I am on record as saying that I don't personally care that Clay was fired, and the reasons you give for why he was fired are probably accurate. he probably even knew the situation he was in and that his comments put him out there as a target. Taking all of it into account, it still does not make sense to fire the guy for his comments. My point is that if it has reached the point where this type of behavious is expected from the Bulls organization, it can't be good.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> 
> 
> Truebluefan,
> ...


But BCH, you are still missing the fact that i want proof. Clear and simple. Connecting the dots is not always the clear picture. Both sides here, can talk all they want and get no where. What i want is:

Clear proof that supports your arguement not opinion. Truth is no one knows exactly how the bulls organization is ran. Not really. I will give you this, you make an arguement, but thats all it is is arguement. I challenged all on this board to present proof to support their side. Articles preferred. Both sides. Now is that being unreasonable?

If we don't get clear proof for either/or, then we will always argue and get no where. Over and over and over....


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

truebluefan,

There was one press release stating the Bulls want to go in a new direction. That is it.

You want concrete proof from me? I have presented a very easy to follow argument as to why Krause would know and why he is to blame. No one has even presented anything close to a reason why they believe what they believe. I know you recognize this, but to get a straight answer about it from the Bulls is not going to happen. Marriotti clearly echoed what I said, but his column is no longer there. 

Like I said, I know this is going to be a circular argument, and that it is pretty much over. Nothing new is being said, but I answered the original posters question with the fact that it was speculation and intimation on why he was fired. 

I am all for moving on to the next topic rather than beating this twice dead horse again. But as has happened in the past, if I fail to address each and every point made, I am accused of ducking the issue. Lets all just let it go.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> 
> 
> You make a point. And I am on record as saying that I don't personally care that Clay was fired, and the reasons you give for why he was fired are probably accurate. he probably even knew the situation he was in and that his comments put him out there as a target. Taking all of it into account, it still does not make sense to fire the guy for his comments. My point is that if it has reached the point where this type of behavious is expected from the Bulls organization, it can't be good.


Well - from what I understand the Bulls orginization doesn't look good to outsiders whether it's warranted or not. I think Krause could buy everyone on the staff a brand new car and the BUlls would still seem like a bad place to be. Not until we start winning consistently will people even care about what Chicago is doing.

Look at it this way. Probably every basketball fan out side of Chicago hates Krause. They think he broke up the dynasty single-handedly and so they hate him. Probably half of the BUlls fans hate Krause for the same reason. That leaves a very tiny portion of people who actually like Krause. The firing of Ray Clay isn't going to make or break what people think of the Bulls. They already have set opinions and not much is going to change that. The bottom line is there are far worse GM's and far worse orginizations to play for. It's all about perception and the current perception of Chicago is bad. Period. (for all of their major sports for that matter. Chicago sports have the worst owners. The Bulls are the newest and most successful franchise in the city)


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> truebluefan,
> 
> There was one press release stating the Bulls want to go in a new direction. That is it.
> ...


More meaningless drivel. Then he runs.

Krauses title is VP of *BASKETBALL* Operations.

Yes, he is the 'face' of the organization because he puts the product on the floor. But's a multitiered organization.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/staff_directory.html

I'm sure he's not interested in facts though. They don't allow him to arrest threads like he has this one.

Shame on you TrueBlue.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Ty for your link. No he didnt arrest this thread. I pushed it as much or more than he did. I am just so tired of hearing that JK is guilty of everything! With no real hard proof. If he can come up with proof to support his claim then i will accept it! If however real proof proves otherwise, that JK was not to blame for Ray being fired, then every time JK gets blames for this i can squash it. It doesn't matter if he is intersted in the facts are not. True hard facts speak louder than hearsay. 

By the way i got a couple of e-mails out and hope to get an answer on this by the weekends end.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> My argument is based on more fact than any other. Krause runs the organization. That is without a doubt. If blame is going to fall, it is going to fall on him. I am at least giving him enough credit to put him in a position to be in control of something like this. It is hilious to think a joe schmoe PR guy does this without fully realizing the ramifications and advising Krause of it first.


I believe you are wrong about that, BCH. Krause's title is "Executive Vice President - Basketball Operations". Steve Shanwald's title is "Executive Vice President - Business Operations". Included in his job description is overseeing "areas that include Ticket Sales, Advertising Sales, _Game Entertainment_, Promotions, Media Services, Community Relations, Publications, Advertising and Broadcasting". Sounds to me like Schanwald does NOT report to Krause, but rather directly to Reinsdorf.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

That's true. In most companies 1 executive vice-president would not report to another. A VP can report to an EVP but that's about it. EVP's report to CEO's. 

I'm babbling.

That's a good point Kneepad.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

And Wes Unseld is the Wizards GM, making the call on all roster moves.

Titles are meaningless, and if you want to look to the corporate world you will easily see this. It is all about who has the clout.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

I might lock this thread soon. I might be leaving for the weekend either tonight or tomorrow. Should i leave, i will lock this thread and unlock it sunday . Hopefully by then i might have some evidence to back up either side of the arguement. Other wise i dont want this to be argued over when i am gone with no moderator here. Any evidence either for or against can be saved until sunday should i lock the thread.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> And Wes Unseld is the Wizards GM, making the call on all roster moves.
> 
> Titles are meaningless, and if you want to look to the corporate world you will easily see this. It is all about who has the clout.


Someone with clout should wipe your infestation from this board.


No we cannot do that. Difference of opinion is not reason to ban someone.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by *truebluefan *
> I might lock this thread soon.


I for one am outta here. I have better luck trying to reason with my 3-year old daughter.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by *gettinbranded *
> 
> 
> Someone with clout should wipe your infestation from this board.


Because I made an obvious observation directly refuting your point? I am confused why you can't handle that. I suggest you lock it down TBF if this is what the comments are going to boil down to.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> 
> 
> Because I made an obvious observation directly refuting your point? I am confused why you can't handle that. I suggest you lock it down TBF if this is what the comments are going to boil down to.


No, because despite the facts to the contrary, you persist in a course that makes as much sense as drafting a guard in the first round that would have been there in the second.


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Kneepad *
> 
> I for one am outta here. I have better luck trying to reason with my 3-year old daughter.


Another comment that was not necessary. You imply reason and provide no logical argument. Your subtle hint regarding what you think of my argument is what directly leads to the degradation of any type of discourse. Let it go, I could have decided to respond in kind but let it be known that I did not.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

ok i got this from G Knue of the chicagosports.com. He sent the original article but no link. As you know i can not post the whole article. There was no mention of JK. 

Roger:

Thanks for the note ... and for visiting our website. Everything I know
about Ray Clay is in this story:


And now . . . you're gone
Clay out as Bulls' PA announcer; reason unclear 


<b>Longtime public-address announcer Ray Clay will not return for his 13th
season and will be replaced by Steve Scott, who worked several games in
Clay's absence over the last two seasons.</b>


<b>The reason for Clay's departure is unclear. A team spokesman said the team
merely opted for "a different direction."

Neither Clay nor Steve Schanwald, the Bulls' executive vice president for
business operations, could be reached for comment.</b>


George Knue
Senior Editor, ChicagoSports.com
312-527-****


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> 
> 
> Another comment that was not necessary. You imply reason and provide no logical argument. Your subtle hint regarding what you think of my argument is what directly leads to the degradation of any type of discourse. Let it go, I could have decided to respond in kind but let it be known that I did not.


No attacks, please...:


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## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by *gettinbranded *
> 
> 
> No, because despite the facts to the contrary, you persist in a course that makes as much sense as drafting a guard in the first round that would have been there in the second.


Don't be angry with me. I didn't sign a guy to a $6_Mil a year deal for averaging less than 7ppg.

My point still stands, unchallenged that it is not always about title, but who has the clout. And to doubt Krause's clout in the Bulls organization is foolish,


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

OK looks like it has gone too far. I will lock it down. If i come up with something new i will post it. Or should someone send me link through pm i will look at it and post it.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

no personal attacks it works both ways

Pm me to discuss problems


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BCH *
> 
> 
> Don't be angry with me. I didn't sign a guy to a $6_Mil a year deal for averaging less than 7ppg.
> ...


Enough BCH!! It is still your opinion and no someone elses opinion is not foolish! Stop it. We are on even terms here. And you still dont have a point yet! Just an opinion. This is locked!!!!


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