# Breaking News: Villanueva traded for T.J. Ford



## Damian Necronamous

That's what they're saying...more to come...

Good trade for both teams.


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## pmac34

BS! IMPOSSIBLE
NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


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## Tupav

Are you serious? 

LINk


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## Sporty G

Wtf???


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## Damian Necronamous

A bunch of people are saying that they just saw it on ESPNews.


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## Team Mao

There better be a link coming soon. That's all I gotta say. Link up mofo.


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## MrkLrn13

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

Bryan, don't even think about it.


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## Tupav

TJ ford + Gadzuric for Villaneuva would be Nice

Although Im one of villaneuvas biggest fans, Fords sick with it and we need a PG and we got Bargs


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## pmac34

its not on espn.com or anything
wed better get someone with TJ (i.e. Magloire)


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## MrkLrn13

Can Bargs play the 3, though?

Swear, we should make a petition like the Rockets.

I might be overreacting, but damn.


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## pmac34

CharlieEEeeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
this better not be right


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## clutchmoney

it's a lie...no trade... so relax.


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## pmac34

good


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## Blazer Freak

Why not? That'd be a sweet lineup:

Rasho/Bosh/Barg/MoPete/Ford

Ford/Bosh/Barg is a nice core.


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## MrkLrn13

I hope you're right. But ****...what if he's telling the truth.


Why not? Because I like Charlie V. I'd rather trade Bargs.


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## Dissonance

Yep, it's true. I just heard it on espn radio now


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## Tupav

I wouldnt mind is Bargs steps up and fills charlies shoes

+ I would want Gadzuric in that deal

Charlie is sick but hes to slow for a run and gun type offense that i think colangelo's tryna run


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## MrkLrn13

If Bargs can play SF then it's OK, but he's too tall for that position.


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## HKF

What would be the depth chart now?


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## Team Mao

Bargnani is not a 3. Not in the NBA. No way. There must be some other plan for the 3.


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## Tupav

Al harrington at 3 :banana:


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## clutchmoney

it's only a rumor


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## TiMVP2

what a trade for the raptors
FORD IS THE FUTURE
FORD/TUCKER
dang thats championship material.


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## Dornado

They're flashing it on the bottom line on ESPN


You guys will love TJ Ford.


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## Team Mao

Tupav said:


> Al harrington at 3 :banana:


Tupav, I finally agree with you about something


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## madman

i like charlie alot but i wouldnt be upset with this deal


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## Tupav

:biggrin: saw this on the bulls side



farouq710 said:


> just saw it on sportscenter, what a move. It works for bothe sides, but it all hinges on how good Andrea Bargnani is. The Raptors are looking a lot like the Orlando Magic, Good young PF and PG, an enigmatic/mysterious international big man. It looks like a fair trade to both teams. Villanueva complements Bogut's game pretty well and Milwaukee still has Mo Williams and Charlie Bell to man the Point, both played pretty well last year.


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## no_free_baskets

i dont think bargnani will play 3...i think its more likely garbajosa moves to the starting 3 spot...


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## madman

espn radio is talking alot about it


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## clutchmoney

this deal stinks...we could have had Roy/Foye...instead we get T.J Ford? I call B.S...or there is more to the deal


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## musiclexer

*the Trade Is Offical Just Seen On Espnnews*​
Raps Gonna Be Sick With Tj/bosh


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## clutchmoney

madman said:


> espn radio is talking alot about it



is there a link to the radio station


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## madman

the raptors press conference is gonna be at 11:15 try the score


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## madman

espnradio.com


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## aizn

oh crap. this is crazy


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## clutchmoney

TJ can't even shoot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## chromekilla

trade really did happen.


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## MrkLrn13

*Makes a petition to not trade Charlie*




Bye, Charlie.


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## pmac34

madman said:


> the raptors press conference is gonna be at 11:15 try the score


its not on


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## no_free_baskets

wow, lots of posters speculated that tj ford + ??? coming to t.o for cv...i thought from a mil. perspective they wouldnt do it for cv straight up....guess i was wrong...lol...

if this trade stays as it stands, most of the rap fans on this board will hate it with a passion...all i know is this thou...fords rookie season, mil, surprise playoff team in the east, without ford (with basically the same team, i believe), 1st pick overall in the lottery...


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## girllovesthegame

I just saw it on the ESPNNEWS ticker.


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## pmac34

is it a straight up trade?


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## Tupav

commercial is on right now


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## madman

pmac34 said:


> its not on


 that is what espnradio said, im on it right now ill tell you if it comes on


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## The Future7

I love this for the Raptors. Ford is a great PG. I cant wait to see him with Bosh.


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## anniebananerz

wow. i just heard this on the fan 590 and im shocked.


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## pmac34

OT: BC are raping the argos (im on the score and TSN looking for press conf)


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## aizn

anniebananerz said:


> wow. i just heard this on the fan 590 and im shocked.


really? all i hear is soccer right now.


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## pmac34

Tupav said:


> commercial is on right now


the spin is on


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## clutchmoney

Charlie V. in my opinion was going to be an allstar...you do NOT give up and all-star for a PG who can't shoot!


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## pmac34

so at the 3 we have garbajosa and graham and tucker
i think that was the main idea of this trade


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## KVIP112

its true i saw it on nbatv. the toronto lakers game where kobe got 81 is on right now. just thought id let you guys know that the trade is for real. straight up tj for cv.


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## Tupav

Argos highlights :biggrin:


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## NetsanityJoe

ive had ESPNEWS on and all it said was Raps trade CV to Bucks for TJ


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## CbobbyB

haha


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## South Dragons Fan

New Lineup Prediction:

PG: TJ Ford/Jose Calderon/Roko Ukic
SG: Morris Peterson/PJ Tucker/Joey Graham
SF: Joey Graham/PJ Tucker
PF: Chris Bosh/Andrea Bargnani/Pape Sow/Kris Humphries
C: Rasho Nestaravic/Andrea Bargnani/Pape Sow/Loren Woods 
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: 

That's a good running team especially if Bargnani starts later on in the year. 

Now Milwaukees lineup will go something like this:

PG: Mo Williams/FA/Charlie Bell
SG: Michael Redd/Chalrie Bell/Jiri Welsch
SF: Bobby Simmons/David Noel/Jiri Welsch
PF: Charlie Villanueva/Joe Smith
C: Andrew Boguts/ Dan Gadzuric

Good trade for both teams IMO. Better for the raptors though.


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## pmac34

get the damn football board off!


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## madman

i am knida 50/50 on this, TJ can become a pass first PG, but i really liked Charlie V


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## pmac34

BASEBALL!??!?!! 
come ON!!


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## MrkLrn13

Milwaukee better include another player.


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## pmac34

madman said:


> i am knida 50/50 on this, TJ can become a pass first PG, but i really liked Charlie V


ya im more 70/30
i wish we had cv but there wouldve been a logjam at the 3/4 spot


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## madman

fan590 saying press conference to start in mere moments


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## MrkLrn13

pmac34 said:


> ya im more 70/30
> i wish we had cv but there wouldve been a logjam at the 3/4 spot


ORLY?

I'm more 90/10.


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## NJ Grand NJ

WTF?

Since I was mostly a CV fan, I guess I'm off the Bucks land.


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## madman

score saying it wasford and cash


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## clutchmoney

&cash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Pain5155

no!!!!!!!!


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## neoxsupreme

PG: TJ Ford
SG: Mo Pete
SF: Andrea Bargnani
PF: Chris Bosh
C: Rasho Nesterovic (for now)

They want to run & gun, Ford is the perfect pt guard. Not a bad line up. Definite improvement from last yr.


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## pmac34

madman said:


> fan590 saying press conference to start in mere moments


still thescore?
or will they skip the WNBA game noones watching on RNBATV?


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## chromekilla

man i would hate to be a toronto fan now.


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## Dissonance

well, here's your link, that is all that is there though.


link 





> Raptors deal Villanueva to Bucks for FordESPN.com news services
> 
> 
> The Toronto Raptors have traded forward Charlie Villanueva to the Milwaukee Bucks for point guard T.J. Ford, Villanueva's agent confirmed Friday night.
> 
> The 6-foot-11 Villanueva, a 2005 first-round draft pick from Connecticut, averaged 13 points and 6.4 rebounds per game for Toronto this season.
> 
> Ford, a 2003 first-round draft pick out of Texas, averaged 12.2 points and 6.6 assists per game for the Bucks in 2005-06.


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## Pain5155

This guy will be a perenial all-star


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## madman

Dissonance19 said:


> well, here's your link, that is all that is there though.
> 
> 
> link


 thanks for the link, i am in shock


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## Tupav

Raptors Trade Cv To Bucks For Tj Ford And Cash

On The Score


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## pmac34

Dissonance19 said:


> well, here's your link, that is all that is there though.
> 
> 
> link


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## open mike

TJ Ford is going to be a great point guard for a long time. He had a great rookie season. He will get to handle the ball more here, Mo Pete doesnt need the ball as much as Redd to be effective. I hope we also managed to squeeze Magloire out of them. 

Villanueva became my favorite raptor really quickly, but If Bargnani is who Colangelo thinks he is, I think we'll be able to forget about him very quickly. Good job trading him while his value is sky high.

 bye charlie, im afraid hes gonna lose his will now though. then again, hell be amazing playing next to bogut. poor charlie..has to live in milwuakee now.


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## pmac34

Tupav said:


> Raptors Trade Cv To Bucks For Tj Ford And Cash
> 
> On The Score


the spin is on.
what thescore are you watching


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## Cris

Bucks Acquire Villanueva From Raptors For Ford

*June 30, 2006 - *General Manager Larry Harris announced tonight that the Milwaukee Bucks have acquired forward *Charlie Villanueva* from the Toronto Raptors in exchange for guard *T.J. Ford* and cash considerations.

“Acquiring Charlie takes care of a primary need we had going into the summer,” said Harris. “He’s a gifted power-forward who knows how to score both inside and outside. We believe his style of play will complement Andrew Bogut’s very well, giving us an extremely young and athletic frontcourt. The outstanding rookie season he had last year is only the beginning of what he’s capable of achieving.” 

“The hard part of any trade is having to give up something in return,” Harris added. “T.J. is a talented, young athlete who gave his all to this organization for three years, both on and off the court. He was an inspiration to all of us when he found the will and strength to fight back from the neck injury he suffered during his rookie season. Many people thought he would never play basketball again, but he thrived in the face of adversity and now has the promise of a long NBA career ahead of him. We wish him much success in Toronto.”'


http://www.nba.com/bucks/news/Villanueva_Acquired_060630.html


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## Ras

I like it.....I think. It solves the Raptors point guard problems, and T.J has the chance to be a hell of a player; but so does Charlie. Having Andrea, Chris and Charlie on all at once would have been something to see if they meshed well, but T.J will be a great fit for the Raptors. I think it'll work out good for both teams, assuming Bargnani pans out.


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## aizn

South Dragons Fan said:


> New Lineup Prediction:
> 
> Now Milwaukees lineup will go something like this:
> 
> PG: Mo Williams/FA/Charlie Bell
> SG: Michael Redd/Chalrie Bell/Jiri Welsch
> SF: Bobby Simmons/David Noel/Jiri Welsch
> PF: Charlie Villanueva/Joe Smith
> C: Andrew Boguts/ Dan Gadzuric
> 
> Good trade for both teams IMO. Better for the raptors though.


You're forgetting that milwaukee also has Jamaal Magloire.


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## pmac34

its ON!


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## pmac34

its on the score... straight up trade... no cash...


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## madman

pmac34 said:


> the spin is on.
> what thescore are you watching


 the ticker


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## Gotham2krazy

Does anyone see a Texas Connect going on?


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## pmac34

time to go update rosters in NBA 2K6....


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## pmac34

Gotham2krazy said:


> Does anyone see a Texas Connect going on?


next up: mihm, aldridge, mo evans


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## aizn

wow, he was such a great community guy. gonna miss you charlie!


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## madman

aizn said:


> wow, he was such a great community guy. gonna miss you charlie!


 yup one of the best reasons he will be missed


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## osman

bad trade!!!!!!!!


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## a_i_4_life

shoot i don't know what to think


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## Rhubarb

Fare thee well Charlie.


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## Pain5155

Still, i think we couldve got more.


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## no_free_baskets

i like the trade...i never liked cv at the 3...hes too slow laterally, he simply cant guard anyone from that spot...its better for his career for him to move back to his natural position...he'll look real good with bogut next to him...

i really like ford...not only is he a perfect fit for what we need, you have to remember also that he just came off a major, major surgery where the guy had to take a yr off...last yr to me, seems to be him playing off some rust to a certain extent...he definetely has potential to get a lot better then he already is now...it usually anyways take pg time to fully develop, so im definetely looking for bigger and better things from ford next yr...

finally, a true pg in to...ford has become my new favourite raptor...


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## NeoSamurai

im diggin' the deal....

charlie was a great guy and i hope the best for him in Milwaukee, but to get a good young point man to run the show is great for this team....


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## Tupav

I think Bosh'll love this trade

Arent him and Tj Ford best friends?


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## madman

anyone know what Fords contract situation? i know he is still on his rookie deal, but did milwaukee pick up their option


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## Pain5155

whens the press conference?


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## madman

Pain5155 said:


> whens the press conference?


 the fan said that it will be any moment, that was 10 mins ago


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## no_free_baskets

Gotham2krazy said:


> Does anyone see a Texas Connect going on?


besides the obvious, theres actually another mil. connection...mitchell, i believe, was an ast. coach when ford was rookie n they went on their unexpected playoff berth...


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## TiMVP2

man why yall frontin??

TJ FORD AND PJ TUCKER IS THE FUTURE OF THE NBA


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## ss03

CV for Ford & Cash, I saw it on the score ticker too. Well, if CV has the potential everyone thinks he does, then this seriously sucks, but if ford can become the all around,pass first point guard threat that we've always needed, then its somewhat worth it. However, all CV fans are probably hoping that TJ fails his physical. 

Of course, Colangelo's last hated trade that ended up being a bad one was the Jason Kidd/ Stephon Marbury stuff, so I hope its nothing like that again where it really is a bad trade. Colangelo has a good eye for potential (picking up Nash, Marion, Stourdemire after the top 7 picks), picking up Barbosa late, liking Diaw, and so on, so I guess for this one we'll have to go on trust for BC and trust alone. Also the fact that raptors needed a pg like Ford, and the fact that Free Agency, and further trade sare still a possibility.


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## clutchmoney

no_free_baskets said:


> i like the trade...i never liked cv at the 3...hes too slow laterally, he simply cant guard anyone from that spot...its better for his career for him to move back to his natural position...he'll look real good with bogut next to him...
> 
> i really like ford...not only is he a perfect fit for what we need, you have to remember also that he just came off a major, major surgery where the guy had to take a yr off...last yr to me, seems to be him playing off some rust to a certain extent...he definetely has potential to get a lot better then he already is now...it usually anyways take pg time to fully develop, so im definetely looking for bigger and better things from ford next yr...
> 
> finally, a true pg in to...ford has become my new favourite raptor...


well the fact is that talented big man are rare in the NBA...Charlie V, has the potential to be a 20PT 10Rebound guy. You do NOT give up a talent like that for a Point Guard who might or might not pan out...his value was higher...CB did not capitalize on his value in my opinion.


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## neoxsupreme

Pain5155 said:


> Still, i think we couldve got more.


If the Raps could of got more they would have. BC is a brilliant executive. I'm sure he attempted to get more in return for Charlie V but I guess Milwaukee wasn't willing. BC probably inquired about a future draft pick but maybe Milwaukee just wouldn't budge on it. I'm really ecstatic for next season. Their offense just turned up a notch. Alas, a true pt guard who is an excellent penetrator. Bye bye Mike James.


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## Pain5155

05/06 06/07 07/08 
T.J. Ford 2,303,040 2,929,467 3,948,921 

4th year option picked up on 10/28/05


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## madman

Pain5155 said:


> 05/06 06/07 07/08
> T.J. Ford 2,303,040 2,929,467 3,948,921
> 
> 4th year option picked up on 10/28/05


 thanks


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## ss03

I'm guessing this lowers the chance of us signing Jay Williams? Ironically, both Ford and Williams are players who may have had "career ending" injuries but have had a great and fast recovery.


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## madman

ss03 said:


> I'm guessing this lowers the chance of us signing Jay Williams? Ironically, both Ford and Williams are players who may have had "career ending" injuries but have had a great and fast recovery.


 Jay hasnt had a great and fast recovery


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## ss03

madman said:


> Jay hasnt had a great and fast recovery


Well fine I'm basing the "great" on early reports, but for the severity of his injury, to be able to run the drills teams have asked him to even after this much time is still pretty good. Bad choice of words, I apologise.


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## no_free_baskets

clutchmoney said:


> well the fact is that talented big man are rare in the NBA...Charlie V, has the potential to be a 20PT 10Rebound guy. You do NOT give up a talent like that for a Point Guard who might or might not pan out...his value was higher...CB did not capitalize on his value in my opinion.


well the thing is, cv is a 4, the same position as bosh, so he was expendable...cv is good but i much rather have bosh...+ i dont know how you expect us to get a good young pg any other way...you have to give something good to get something good in return...pg's are harder to find then pf's so the deal looks good, imo...


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## flushingflash

while i expect villanueva to be a solid pro, i dont think he'll be anything more than an atoine walker type of player.


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## Benis007

i don't know what to say.

i am happy that we have our PG issue taken care of, barring injuries to ford. sad to see charlie go, i wish him the best in milwaukee.


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## Flush

Bucks fans seem to be equally negative about the trade. 

Leads me to believe this was a solid deal.

Assuming he passes a physical we get a very good young PG with a ton of upside. We gave up a very good young PF with a ton of upside. Seems fair.


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## re-run

i LOVED cv but a trade liek this had to happen especially with us drafting Bargs. I prefer CV Over AB but raptors really needed a pg.

I loved CV's passing in the paint but I think we'll end up loving ford and bosh's play together....

think of it...milwaukee didnt have that pick and roll player that raptors have with bosh...fords speed combined with bosh's inside game will be awsome for a nice combo between the two....

the Raptors needed to do this move to improve as a team...as much as it hurts we had to do a move like this


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

flushingflash said:


> while i expect villanueva to be a solid pro, i dont think he'll be anything more than an atoine walker type of player.




3 time all star...career 20-8-4 player??...nothing more than that huh???


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## madman

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> 3 time all star...career 20-8-4 player??...nothing more than that huh???


 he is a one dementional player though


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## flushingflash

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> 3 time all star...career 20-8-4 player??...nothing more than that huh???



stats are overated. walker aint exactly the type of player that i would put alot of faith in to take a team to that next level.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

madman said:


> he is a one dementional player though




not even close!!!...maybe now he has regressed some after bein in the league for 10 years...but back in his prime...he was a 6'9 pf who could run the point, pass like a pg, rebound, score 30 at any given time, shoot the 3, drive to the basket...HARDLY a one dimentional player in his prime...trust me ive followed his entire career


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## Tupav

How are you an Antoine Walker fan though fo real LOL

hes a fat outta control maniac

*He does a cross over, spins, DOES A LAY UP,*

Too bad though that 99% of the time it'll end up hitting backboard but no rim

HA

Sorry but walker is trash


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

flushingflash said:


> stats are overated. walker aint exactly the type of player that i would put alot of faith in to take a team to that next level.




to the next level huh??? kinda like the eastern conference finals in 02-03?? or maybe a NBA championship about 2 weeks ago???...how quickly we forget


EDIT: before everyone jumps on me i do not mean he led them to a championship...i mean he was a key piece that put them "over the top"


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## ATLien

WOW!

This trade just kicked my ***. Unexpected.

I like it for Toronto.


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## madman

i dont think we will have a press conference today, the score seems to be running normal programing and the fan is just gonna talk to eric smit


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan

anyways...good trade for both teams i believe...you dont need bosh, villanueva and bargnani


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## undefined_playa

Besides his great offensive capabilities, Villanueva has exceptional passing skills for a big man imo. His defense is the worst part, but he'll learn. Honestly, even if we are a better team w/ Ford than w/o Charlie though, I'd rather still have CV because he is such a great community guy and just a great person for everyone to appreciate. He was my favourite rap and I'll miss him a lot. Nonetheless, this trade is pretty equal guys. Remember, you have to give some to get some.


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## Tupav

Plus antoine walkers head is shaped like a shed

just for that= no respect

plus he did that **** with his shoulders after the and 1


:clown:


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## wind161

has TJ's neck/back full healed?


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## undefined_playa

Something I have to add though...we all better pray Bargnani isn't a complete bust, otherwise Colangelo has made 2 HUGE mistakes (drafting him & trading CV).


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## madman

undefined_playa said:


> Something I have to add though...we all better pray Bargnani isn't a complete bust, otherwise Colangelo has made 2 HUGE mistakes (drafting him & trading CV).


 yeah thats putting a lot of stock in him, IMO i would rather have Charlie and let Bargnani become an allstar on another team that way we could still say that there was no true #1 pick


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## charliev

as much as im gonna miss charlie v and his great dunks, but tj ford was needed, altho i do think they should ve traded bargnani instead, since bargnani plays bosh s position, and i dont know about him as a center, now if we sign a sf or sg, we will have a great rotation

bargnani, bosh, harrington( sign), mo pete, ford

rotation

graham, calderon, barett, rasho, humphries, pop sow and maybe alvin williams


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## PersianPlaya18

a_i_4_life said:


> shoot i don't know what to think


DAAMn same here....I mean i think it's a pretty good trade but maaan i'm going to miss Charlie


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## madman

Eric Smith and Leo Rautins on the fan right now


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## charliev

madman said:


> i dont think we will have a press conference today, the score seems to be running normal programing and the fan is just gonna talk to eric smit


listen to the fan


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## neoxsupreme

madman said:


> Eric Smith and Leo Rautins on the fan right now


Fill us in.


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## martymar

damn, i like charlie v and i think he can better than bosh the only thing holding him back is Bosh tenacity. On the other hand I also like TJ ford, i actually wanted the raptors to draft him and i just hope TJ ford doesn't get injured


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## osman

Doesn't he have a bad back? I know he played 72 games last year. Did he fully recover?


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## charliev

neoxsupreme said:


> Fill us in.


just commentary with eric smith and leo, about it...

they sayin that he may not have the best jumper but really quick and alot of potential, and mitchell and ford have a good relationship

colangelo still looking for a combo guard

and villa wanted to stay here his entire career


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## VTRapsfan

I think Raps fans have gotten too used to raping teams or getting raped in the trade market. This wasn't a bad trade - for either team. Milwaukee had a glut of talented PGs. We had a glut of talented PFs. Now, neither team has a logjam and both have filled a need. Also, I think something that often gets overlooked is the little "_and cash_" at the end of the deal description. Raps have been getting a lot of cash in trades lately, is BS looking to throw a ton of money at a big free agent scorer or stopper?

I really liked CV, but this was still a good trade.


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## madman

-Talkes were going on during the draft
-Leo likes the deal
-Charlie and Mo are most tradable assets
-Colangelo comes out of the deal pretty good
-Ford has opportunity to grow
-Not a home run deal but a double or triple
-Are still issues
-Are able to make a big leap
-Should have more wins
-Long and Short term positives
-Lots of reasons to be positive
-Opportunity in weak conference to make playoffs
-TJ is really quick and will fit in well
-Can guard quicker players
-Sam and Bryan want to run
-More of a distrubter then a shooter
-Good finisher
-Alot of potential
-This year was a confidence builder for Ford
-Is comfortable with Sam Mitchell
-Tough player
-Good mechanics and can develop an average jumper
-Charlie was closest with Eric Williams, took him under his wing, hung out alot
-Bryan still looking for a combo guard
-Charlie is probably upset
-Milwaukee may make more moves with Charlie coming on


those are a mix of both of their comments


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## NeoSamurai

RaptorsCB4 said:


> I think Raps fans have gotten too used to raping teams or getting raped in the trade market. This wasn't a bad trade - for either team. Milwaukee had a glut of talented PGs. We had a glut of talented PFs. Now, neither team has a logjam and both have filled a need. Also, I think something that often gets overlooked is the little "_and cash_" at the end of the deal description. Raps have been getting a lot of cash in trades lately, is BS looking to throw a ton of money at a big free agent scorer or stopper?
> 
> I really liked CV, but this was still a good trade.


yea, i agree with the "and cash" comment...

maybe those grumblings from ESPN that BC was gonna make a run at Peja are true...


----------



## madman

NeoSamurai said:


> yea, i agree with the "and cash" comment...
> 
> maybe those grumblings from ESPN that BC was gonna make a run at Peja are true...


 most likely to go towards getting Ukic here


----------



## charliev

im still wanting harrington... we need a true high flyer here... i know graham is athletic, but i havent seen any big dunks from him yet... villa had the biggest dunks, but....  and bosh wont be able to poster too many ppl being the star and now will be doubled more... we need that big dunker like vc was...


----------



## trick

Without reading anyone else's post(s) or getting some more insight on the matter, I would like to state for the record that my initial reaction is subpar at best.


----------



## clutchmoney

after thinking about the trade i've changed my mind, i think this was a good deal IF Bargnani is what BC thinks he is. .


----------



## Benis007

madman said:


> -Talkes were going on during the draft
> -Leo likes the deal
> -Charlie and Mo are most tradable assets
> -Colangelo comes out of the deal pretty good
> -Ford has opportunity to grow
> -Not a home run deal but a double or triple
> -Are still issues
> -Are able to make a big leap
> -Should have more wins
> -Long and Short term positives
> -Lots of reasons to be positive
> *-Opportunity in weak conference to make playoffs*
> -TJ is really quick and will fit in well
> -Can guard quicker players
> -Sam and Bryan want to run
> -More of a distrubter then a shooter
> -Good finisher
> -Alot of potential
> -This year was a confidence builder for Ford
> -Is comfortable with Sam Mitchell
> -Tough player
> -Good mechanics and can develop an average jumper
> -Charlie was closest with Eric Williams, took him under his wing, hung out alot
> -Bryan still looking for a combo guard
> -Charlie is probably upset
> -Milwaukee may make more moves with Charlie coming on
> 
> 
> those are a mix of both of their comments


thing we can't lose site of. i think that what we have seen thus far will put us over the top and into the 7th or 8th seed.


----------



## aizn

yea, and plus, it's safe to note that rumours started BEFORE an hour it actually hits, it's not gonna happen. It's the trades u don't hear about that get completed.


----------



## trick

MrkLrn13 said:


> If Bargs can play SF then it's OK, but he's too tall for that position.


All this "Bargs is an SF" talk has to stop now. He's not an SF. He will never be an SF. His future is not at the SF.

(little peeved upon hearing the CV/Ford trade)


----------



## charliev

trick said:


> All this "Bargs is an SF" talk has to stop now. He's not an SF. He will never be an SF. His future is not at the SF.
> 
> (little peeved upon hearing the CV/Ford trade)


hence i want harrington... or peja...


----------



## trick

madman said:


> he is a one dementional player though


My gawd I hope you're not talking about Charlie. :uhoh:


----------



## trick

charliev said:


> hence i want harrington... or peja...


:uhoh:

On top of a real, bad trade going down, the last thing I wanna hear are terrible, hypothetical signings.


----------



## NeoSamurai

madman said:


> most likely to go towards getting Ukic here


yea i know, but a man can dream cant he?...


----------



## o.iatlhawksfan

This is not neccessarly a bad thing now ya'll have a p.g and can play Barg at the 3 where his natural position is, but a question I thought that you guys we're high on Marcus Williams why didn't yall trade up to get him. Anyways good trade for both team CV3 would have stunted bargnaini's development.


----------



## frank_white

Man, I don't like this trade at all. TJ Ford is good ... when healthy, but when was the last time he played an entire season (has he even played an entire season?). This could turn out to be a total lemon for us. We should have gotten a lot more for Charlie V.


----------



## trick

Just read through the whole thread an no one has convinced me yet why this was a good deal. All I got was:
"Oh man, a combo of Ford/Bosh is gonna be sick" 
without reason or explanation, or the always stupidly simple
"we finally got that pass-first point guard we need".
But the kicker was the poster who mentioned charlie was "one-dimenstional".


----------



## Tupav

Watch Ford

This will be his breakout season


----------



## charliev

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> Tjis is not neccessarly a bad thing now ya'll have a p.g and can play Barg at the 3 where his natural position is, but a question I thought that you guys we're high on Marcus Williams why didn't yall trade up to get him. Anyways good trade for both team CV3 would have stunted bargnaini's development.


thats y aldrige was a the other colangelo considered...also being boshs favorite... i wonder how bosh will handle this.. first not gettin his guy, then trading away half his team....

also i dont believe bargnani can play the 3 in the nba... too many fast 3s...

and how could we trade up?? we had number 1...


----------



## NeoSamurai

charliev said:


> im still wanting harrington... we need a true high flyer here... i know graham is athletic, but i havent seen any big dunks from him yet... villa had the biggest dunks, but....  and bosh wont be able to poster too many ppl being the star and now will be doubled more... we need that big dunker like vc was...


dunks are only 2 points ....what you need are players that can penetrate and break down an offense....mo can do a bit of it, but with getting tj, we get a guy who's strengths include penetration and finding the open man upon the double...plus with the style of play that tj brings, we'll be seeing more of those highlight dunks since he'll find those who are charging at the net that are open and players will be working harder to get open since they know tj will get them the ball....


----------



## o.iatlhawksfan

charliev said:


> thats y aldrige was a the other colangelo considered...also being boshs favorite... i wonder how bosh will handle this.. first not gettin his guy, then trading away half his team....
> 
> also i dont believe bargnani can play the 3 in the nba... too many fast 3s...
> 
> *and how could we trade up?? we had number 1...*



I'm taking about when he was slipping late in the first round, ya'll could have gotten out of the second round and got marcus, just like boston got Rajon. I think barg could handle playing the 3 he's not a great defender, and probaly never will be but he does have the offensive tools to play the 3 he's a average to above average athlete, and he has an excellent mid range shot, will play in the perimeter alot which will complement his nice shooting touch, and sure he's not as athletic as some 3s but he is taller which will help him shoot over his matchups, remember he's 7'0 close to 7'1.


----------



## -James-

I'd rather have Foye...

I'm not mad but I'm not jumping for joy right now. I'm still pretty indifferent about our offseason. A good dose of winning can often cure that though.


----------



## charliev

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> [/B]
> I'm taking about when he was slipping late in the first round, ya'll could have gotten out of the second round and got marcus, just like boston got Rajon.


i doubt in a draft this shallow, most teams would not take two 2s for a 1 st rounder...

and about al harrington, i know that tj will open up the floor, but al can run the floor better than the big men can, therefore more fast break points... also graham struggled last year, and i would not give him the start yet, and if we hypothetically had peja, he is slower, and wouldnt fit the high tempo style the raps are trying to get like the suns, since he s more of a shooter


----------



## trick

NeoSamurai said:


> dunks are only 2 points ....what you need are players that can penetrate and break down an offense....mo can do a bit of it, but with getting tj, we get a guy who's strengths include penetration and finding the open man upon the double...plus with the style of play that tj brings, we'll be seeing more of those highlight dunks since he'll find those who are charging at the net that are open and players will be working harder to get open since they know tj will get them the ball....


1. I hate the deal initially. If one of the main points of making this trades for to get more highlight reels, I'm just about to call Colangelo out with an email.

2. Offense was never, ever the problem. Trading Charlie V (who has the higher value in this trade) for TJ Ford (who had the lower value of this trade) did not need to happen, at least now yet anyways.

Terrible, terrible deal.


----------



## ss03

You know what, I'm going to forget the players we have for a second and think about Colangelo's ability to build teams. One things obvious, right now he wants it to be about Bosh, and in the future he wants it to be about AB and CB, and when both of them are leading (hoping AB isn't a bust in progress) thats when he's hoping for Conference/NBA finals. 

One problem though, usually when he brings in complementary pieces he watches games and sees where the holes are, and fixes the team as such. Here, he's going it all from the get go, and if he misread something, then we may have lost our cap space, we used our #1pick, and the only thing we can hope for is Oden. However, the Raptors are in a better position then that, so you know what, the trade was a dissapointment if you're looking at it from a Raps/CV Fan (Michael Redd will take shots off CV) but the true time to yell is when November/December ends.

Edit: Reading posts that were made when I was posting. You're right, offense is not the problem, we had like 102ppg, the problem was that we allowed around 103ppg against us. Also, some of it may be highlights, but not entirely. In an early interview with Bryan Colengelo, he kept saying something about "appealing to the fans" and "being a good team but also putting on a show for fans" being very important and what not, and he said stuff like that a couple of times in that one interview.


----------



## TRON

well.......wow!!!

We got our much needed PG in Ford, obviously sad to see Charlie go, but this will make us a much better team next year

value wise, it's close, closer than many here think, especially considering it's harder to find a good PG than a 3/4 player

*issues with Ford*
- back/health issues
- impending contract $$$

*positives*
- prototypical up tempo starting PG
- relationship with Bosh


----------



## o.iatlhawksfan

-James- said:


> I'd rather have Foye...
> 
> I'm not mad but I'm not jumping for joy right now. I'm still pretty indifferent about our offseason. A good dose of winning can often cure that though.


I'm not sure ya'll would have improve that much in the first place, one thing I learn about The Hornets was that they alot of important players coming back from the season before, so there we're comfortable with each other and had good chemestry. Calango( sorry for misspelling his name) has amde good move, but to many move ya'll will probaly have 3 new starters this season and they're are going to have to feel comfortable with each other and we do even know if they'll complement each other well.


----------



## spinz

mmmmmm

maybe it's a 4 letter pg thing...(some late night non-sense)

kidd

nash

now 

the future 'ford'.... (better not be a fix or repair daily though)

i gotta see the whole picture before i fully judge this trade, i really hate losing CV3, i actually thought since he survived draft day rumours he was going to be a raptor for a long time...i liked the CV3/CB4 duo, but now let's see how TJ/AB/CB4 looks...


----------



## o.iatlhawksfan

charliev said:


> i doubt in a draft this shallow, most teams would not take two 2s for a 1 st rounder...
> 
> and about al harrington, i know that tj will open up the floor, but al can run the floor better than the big men can, therefore more fast break points... also graham struggled last year, and i would not give him the start yet, and if we hypothetically had peja, he is slower, and wouldnt fit the high tempo style the raps are trying to get like the suns, since he s more of a shooter


I suggested that in the hawks board I'm not sure it would have work because Al's a free agent right now, but I don't know if you're allowed to trade free agents right now, but We defineltly don't want CV3 he's another 3 and WE DON'T NEED ANYMORE 3'S.


----------



## trick

Let's trade Bargs for Zaza Pachulia. Both are still young. Both are centres. However, Bargs is kind of unproven while Zaza has shown he can throw his body around with the big boys.


----------



## o.iatlhawksfan

trick said:


> Let's trade Bargs for Zaza Pachulia. Both are still young. Both are centres. However, Bargs is kind of unproven while Zaza has shown he can throw his body around with the big boys.


We like Zaza down here, and as much as Billy liked Andrea before the draft he wouldn't do that. BTW ya'll are not going to trade the #1 overall pick before seeing what he can do.


----------



## trick

Do people actually think Charlie, the second best rookie in a pretty good draft last year, who complimented Bosh pretty well, who scored 48 points in one game last year, who is as versatile as that of a Lamar Odom, is worth TJ Ford and some cash? Are you guys serious?


----------



## trick

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> We like Zaza down here, and as much as Billy liked Andrea before the draft he wouldn't do that. BTW ya'll are not going to trade the #1 overall pick before seeing what he can do.


Fine, we'll throw in Bosh as well. We won't ask for Josh Smith since we already have PJ Tucker.


----------



## Rhubarb

frank_white said:


> TJ Ford is good ... when healthy, but when was the last time he played an entire season (has he even played an entire season?).


Abit harsh on a guy who's played 3 seasons, one of which was wiped off due to injury. It's not as if he's "injury prone", per se..


----------



## o.iatlhawksfan

trick said:


> Fine, we'll throw in Bosh as well. We won't ask for Josh Smith since we already have PJ Tucker.


I that case deal, we take Bosh any day of the week  
BTW I know you aren't serious.


----------



## osman

trick said:


> Do people actually think Charlie, the second best rookie in a pretty good draft last year, who complimented Bosh pretty well, who scored 48 points in one game last year, who is as versatile as that of a Lamar Odom, is worth TJ Ford and some cash? Are you guys serious?


Couldn't agree more, horrible deal for the Raps. Very dissappointing.


----------



## rainman

trick said:


> Do people actually think Charlie, the second best rookie in a pretty good draft last year, who complimented Bosh pretty well, who scored 48 points in one game last year, who is as versatile as that of a Lamar Odom, is worth TJ Ford and some cash? Are you guys serious?


this one happened quick didnt it? i figured at some point they would trade villanueva if bargnani turned out to be the real deal but this is quite a leap of faith. personally i dont have a problem trading him but i'm not sure they couldnt get more. i hope ford turns out great there but to me it's up in the air how good he is going to be.


----------



## trick

I would've been satisifed if someone like Ford + Charlie Bell + a second coming back our way as well, but no...


----------



## trick

And I know I'm post-whoring now but...

Ford is an RFA after this season, meaning he'll command money from other teams as well next offseason, meaning we'll have to use the cap in the immediate future just to keep him or let him walk which would result in not getting anything for substantial for CV at all.

But all that is moot since Ford fills a need. I surely can't wait to watch a Raptors season full of young studs, all offense, weak defence and no consistent rebounding. 

:banana:

edit: If BC uses the remaining 10 mil of cap space the Raptors currently have now to sign Peja I will start a "I Hate Bryan Colangelo" Fan Club.


----------



## NeoSamurai

trick said:


> 1. I hate the deal initially. If one of the main points of making this trades for to get more highlight reels, I'm just about to call Colangelo out with an email.
> 
> 2. Offense was never, ever the problem. Trading Charlie V (who has the higher value in this trade) for TJ Ford (who had the lower value of this trade) did not need to happen, at least now yet anyways.
> 
> Terrible, terrible deal.


in terms of the highlight comment, what im trying to get at is the fact that this deal gives BC his playmaker that will relentlessly push that ball and find his teammates, creating what i hope will be a more free flowing half court offense and a fastbreak mentality which will lead to more of those highlight reel plays and ultimately an even more potent offense...with our team's skill players along with their athleticism, the potential for such an offense to come about is realistic...

true, Charlie probably had more value at this moment than TJ, and maybe BC could have received more from this deal if it were made say in December, January, or February but BC wants to make a winner in Toronto now. Calderon is at this moment looking like a solid backup guard, and with no real starting points out there in the FA market, a deal was needed in order to bring in a starting point that will not only be pass first considering the offensive talent and athleticism surrounding the team, but can actually be a good starter at the 1 for a team looking to make the playoffs...

as well, TJ is only 23 years of age and has a lot of time to grow at the position, already being a very good player. His health history is a cause for concern, however playing 72 games last season somewhat eases my fears as to whether he can withstand the grind of an NBA season...given his age, he fits in with BC's plans of both the short and long term as he'll be able to grow with Chris and Andrea, forming the core of this franchise for years to come....

in the end, we immediately fill a need at point with a player that comes from our deepest position...i see no real loser in the deal: the bucks get a guy to go with Bogut in the post while we get a point man who rounds out our starting five and gives optimism to the fact that we may make the playoffs...


----------



## Dathomieyouhate

i remember when tj ford came into the league.. he was getting a ton of triple doubles.. i like the trade.. even though i hate to see charlie go.. this is our best point guard in franchise history...


----------



## narrator

trick said:


> Ford is an RFA after this season, meaning he'll command money from other teams as well next offseason, meaning we'll have to use the cap in the immediate future just to keep him or let him walk which would result in not getting anything for substantial for CV at all.
> 
> But all that is moot since Ford fills a need. I surely can't wait to watch a Raptors season full of young studs, all offense, weak defence and no consistent rebounding.


Extensions don't kick in until after the contract is over. So, assuming Ford signs an extension, he won't count any more against the cap this year than he does right now. It seemed like you think the extension kicks in right away (though I could be wrong since there is no way I'm reading 10+ pages of posts at 1AM).

I don't mind the deal. The Raptors get the PG they want/need to run the offense. Now they need to hire an assistant coach to teach them how to rotate properly on defense. They really should try to allower fewer than 100PPG next year, I think.

I think Ford will love it here. I hope he stays with Bosh and they can form a nice little combo (or trio, with Bargnani) for the next 10 years or so.


----------



## speedythief

Wow!

I came home expecting to see the same 'ol draft talk and saw this...

Shocked. Stunned. Can't believe it.

Still digesting... digesting...


----------



## martymar

trick said:


> Do people actually think Charlie, the second best rookie in a pretty good draft last year, who complimented Bosh pretty well, who scored 48 points in one game last year, who is as versatile as that of a Lamar Odom, is worth TJ Ford and some cash? Are you guys serious?


I agree with you, I really think charlie will be a better play than Bosh since he is a better passer, better rebounder and better ball handler. I can see Charlie V scoring 20ppg next year with milwaukee


----------



## kirk_2003

trick said:


> Do people actually think Charlie, the second best rookie in a pretty good draft last year, who complimented Bosh pretty well, who scored 48 points in one game last year, who is as versatile as that of a Lamar Odom, is worth TJ Ford and some cash? Are you guys serious?


Agreed, I do believe that CV's value was higher... But I guess in this case getting a young talented PG in Ford is harder to find... 

I was a little pissed when I heard about the deal... I would've liked something more then cash in return, i mean anything (satisfied with 2nd rounder). But oh well. im not saying its a bad trade just yet... lets see how this play in the rest of the offseason and if we do much better then last season. 

Another thing... AB better be the real deal or else we shot ourselves on the foot...


----------



## speedythief

It's fitting that the team Charlie but a beating on would be the one most interested in acquiring him. I think Bonner had a nice game against the Spurs one time too. Funny how things work out.


----------



## ColinBeehler

im gunna hafta say ya. i think charlie v overachieved this year. tj ford is a pass first point gaurd that all gm's covet, he's young, quick, was sick in his first year. had a horrible injury in year two, and came back wonderfully from it. year three i think was almost like a year to feel things out, i think he'll be even better this year. we are still 14.5 million under the cap. whether that is used to sign a free agent this offseason, or used to trade for a veteran with a large contract. I can still see our team getting a lot better then it is. Our shortcomings are now a lot more simple then they have been in .... well Raptors history. Ask an NBA fan what the easiest thing to find is in the league right now. I'd say most would say sf or pf. We "need" a three, who can score I think.

Rasho - Bosh, G-Nani, Sow
Bosh - G-Nani, Humphries
Graham - G-Nani, Tucker
Mo Pete - Graham, (Ukic)
Ford - Calderon, (Ukic)

I think that we have the necessary pieces to trade for a another offensive threat to take the heat off of Bosh. Depending on who we get, I could see at most, expendable assets this offseason are now. 14.5 million in cap space. Humphries, Graham, Calderon, Sow, and then maybe Morris Peterson. I think we can look over the league now and look at scoring wings in a different way. A one-dimensional scoring wing, something we could never enjoy before. Is something we could covet now.

Here's a long list of guys we could MAYBE look at. I say long because not all fit or are available.

Stephen Jackson
Caron Butler
Peja Stojakovic
Wally Szczerbiak
Risky Davis
Rashard Lewis
Jason Richardson

Just throwing out a few names.

Anyway. Thats all for now.

-lata


----------



## frank_white

Rhubarb said:


> Abit harsh on a guy who's played 3 seasons, one of which was wiped off due to injury. It's not as if he's "injury prone", per se..


I may have been, because I'm honestly not familiar with his injuries. Is there a chance whatever back problems he had in his 1st and second seasons could re-occur? And what made him miss 10 games this year? Can anyone give me the details on this guy's health?


----------



## tobybennett

I think BC knew that Charlie V and Bosh didn't mesh too well together, and throw Bargnani and there simply wasn't room for all three. TJ ford is an amazing pg, and probably the fastest player in the nba. I'm excited about this trade. 
For those who think Charlie V could be an all-star, I think he still could, but not with Bosh. Keep in mind he scored 48 points or whatever it was, when Bosh was on the bench. I like this trade, and I look for BC to sign Peja to round out our roster. 

If theres one thing I've learned about Colangelo, its that he certainly isn't afraid to wheel and deal. This raptors team should be fun to watch next season, with TJ this team will be really fast-paced.


----------



## narrator

frank_white said:


> I may have been, because I'm honestly not familiar with his injuries. Is there a chance whatever back problems he had in his 1st and second seasons could re-occur? And what made him miss 10 games this year? Can anyone give me the details on this guy's health?


He hurt his back in a freak fall and hurt his spine. If he ever falls on it the same way again, he could be seriously injured but the chances of that happening are somewhere between slim and none. He doesn't get hurt, per se, but he has had one catastrophic injury. In the course of a normal basketball game, that should never happen again. At least to my knowledge.

I'm liking this trade more and more as I think about it.


----------



## speedythief

I'm still shocked. Wow.

Maybe we could've got a bit more but teams knew we were facing a logjam and had already brought in a replacement for Charlie.

Did anyone notice the Bucks are full-out Christmas colours now, too?


----------



## clutchmoney

we still need a bench.

Peja...is another guy who can't play any D. Will ask for tooooo much money. Dont want him anyway, have enough shooters as it is.


----------



## CrimsonShadows

Wow! Wow! Wow!

That was gutsy.... I don't know if any other Raps GM would have ever had the balls to make this kind of move.

Plusdide: BC has address all of the teams pressing needs without spending a cent of our cap space... 

Downdide: Ford's injury history and RFA status next year.

If we can extend both him and bosh I would give the trade a thumbs up (contingent on Ford staying healthy of course)


----------



## trick

NeoSamurai said:


> in terms of the highlight comment, what im trying to get at is the fact that this deal gives BC his playmaker that will relentlessly push that ball and find his teammates, creating what i hope will be a more free flowing half court offense and a fastbreak mentality which will lead to more of those highlight reel plays and ultimately an even more potent offense...with our team's skill players along with their athleticism, the potential for such an offense to come about is realistic...
> 
> true, Charlie probably had more value at this moment than TJ, and maybe BC could have received more from this deal if it were made say in December, January, or February but BC wants to make a winner in Toronto now. Calderon is at this moment looking like a solid backup guard, and with no real starting points out there in the FA market, a deal was needed in order to bring in a starting point that will not only be pass first considering the offensive talent and athleticism surrounding the team, but can actually be a good starter at the 1 for a team looking to make the playoffs...
> 
> as well, TJ is only 23 years of age and has a lot of time to grow at the position, already being a very good player. His health history is a cause for concern, however playing 72 games last season somewhat eases my fears as to whether he can withstand the grind of an NBA season...given his age, he fits in with BC's plans of both the short and long term as he'll be able to grow with Chris and Andrea, forming the core of this franchise for years to come....
> 
> in the end, we immediately fill a need at point with a player that comes from our deepest position...i see no real loser in the deal: the bucks get a guy to go with Bogut in the post while we get a point man who rounds out our starting five and gives optimism to the fact that we may make the playoffs...


What is the difference between waiting one year and doing an S&T for Ford + pick(s) and/or Charlie Bell in exchange for Charlie V plus Alvin, and Ford + cash for CV straight up?

And I agree that Ford does fill a need, but it's not a need that will make us substantially better, but more like a need that fills our depth chart. Ford will not help us become a better rebounding team or improve us defensively astoundingly. In fact, he brings in the complete opposite, with his fragile size of 5'10 and <200 lbs.

Mind you I'm not against trading Charlie V. My main beef is the fact that we only got Ford and Cash for Charlie when we could have got more.

PS: Dare I say it, but do I see the return of this dynamic duo:









and


----------



## trick

Talk about being shot on the leg after being stabbed on the shoulder:


> MILWAUKEE -- The Milwaukee Bucks traded point guard *T.J. Ford* to the Toronto Raptors on Friday night *for* forward *Charlie Villanueva and cash*.


----------



## -inVINCEible-

ColinBeehler said:


> G-Nani
> G-Nani
> G-Nani



oh god


----------



## kirk_2003

trick said:


> Talk about being shot on the leg after being stabbed on the shoulder:


that better be a typo.
:nonono:


----------



## LamarButler

I think now that CV is gone Bargnani or Bosh is gonna be molded into a center, so they can play together in the frontcourt.

But I think theyll do it slowly and let both of their bodies to mature and wait for them to bulk up. So for the first couple years or so I think the Raps will have a scrub center and Bargnani will play SF, kinda like what KG did when he first came into the league.

I think this trade is even. Each team got what it needed, but since these guys are about equal it depends on who turns out be a better player.


----------



## ColinBeehler

-inVINCEible- said:


> oh god


haha.. u like? I think it's a pretty nice nickname. lol

barG-NANI


----------



## JuniorNoboa

clutchmoney said:


> this deal stinks...we could have had Roy/Foye...instead we get T.J Ford? I call B.S...or there is more to the deal


Do you watch basketball?


----------



## JuniorNoboa

clutchmoney said:


> Charlie V. in my opinion was going to be an allstar...you do NOT give up and all-star for a PG who can't shoot!


TJ Ford has more chance of being an all star then Charlie V.

TJ is a winner


----------



## JuniorNoboa

ss03 said:


> I'm guessing this lowers the chance of us signing Jay Williams? Ironically, both Ford and Williams are players who may have had "career ending" injuries but have had a great and fast recovery.


When exactly did Williams have his great and fast recovery.... where are all the NBA teams lined up for this guy


----------



## JuniorNoboa

undefined_playa said:


> Something I have to add though...we all better pray Bargnani isn't a complete bust, otherwise Colangelo has made 2 HUGE mistakes (drafting him & trading CV).


How can trading CV be a bust if we got the better player in the deal. Interesting/


----------



## JuniorNoboa

aizn said:


> yea, and plus, it's safe to note that rumours started BEFORE an hour it actually hits, it's not gonna happen. It's the trades u don't hear about that get completed.


TJ Ford rumours have been around for a while...and they made sense


----------



## -inVINCEible-

ColinBeehler said:


> haha.. u like? I think it's a pretty nice nickname. lol
> 
> barG-NANI


terrible, but its better than others i've heard

like B-Ninny (WTF???)


----------



## JuniorNoboa

I going to come off arrogant in this post... I've had a few tonight, and quite frankly after reading most off this thread, I am concerned about the general lack of logic that exists in our younger people. Common business sense / asset management is just plain lackingm, and it frightens me. 

It's quite simple. 

First, the simply acknowledgement that this is a lateral deal, both players are good, one can argue that either one is negligibly better then the other. If you say CV is much better, its not a logic issue but a lack of comprehension and understanding of basketball/

Second, ENTERING TODAY
1. What was our biggest asset? CAP SPACE
2. What was our biggest weakness? PG

How many good PG's were available in FA.. **** all - not the type of PG's we wanted on our team.

But now our biggest weakness is the 2/3 - which is much easier to fill through FA... and there will be options available in the trade market. Also remember that 2/3 can be sometimes interchangeable.. depending on the player... Mo can be a 3 for example.

SIMPLE LOGIC DICTATES THAT WE WILL MUCH MORE EFFECTIVELY USE OUR BIGGEST ASSET (CAP SPACE), WHERE THERE ARE MORE AVAILABLE OPTIONS. Pretty simple... maybe not for some of this group... 

Common Sense Conclusion:
- Great Deal
- Equal Talent given up.
- Can now much more effectively use our biggest asset.
- BC shows awesome asset management.


Note - My spelling and grammar sucks. By all means call me out on it. I'd rather have common sense


----------



## MrkLrn13

We should've drafted Rudy Gay.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

If Rudy Gay had went top 3 or 4 your point has merit.... but then again I guess your smarter then 7 NBA GM's and scouting staffs.


----------



## 4BiddenKnight

To you people who talks about how TO should get Gay, Foye or how bad this trade is, shut up and listen to Junior. Colangelo in interviews clearly stated that TO needs a PG and can not get it by free agency, but by trading.


----------



## Divine Spammer

OMG!
This trade has completely shocked me. 
I knew that CV was to be traded (and suspect that Joey G is too), but this was.. wow.. 

Too bad, because I'm sure all the fans here really loved and admired CV, and I hope he's an all-star one day. 

I don't understand the Bucks, though. 
That means Mo Williams will be their first PG, which is nice, but why give up T.J Ford?


----------



## ballocks

never realized how much i liked charlie villanueva. wow, he's a really good kid so it's tough to see him go. awfully tough. i guess i was hoping he'd play a role in the turn-around. can't help feeling depressed about this- even if michael jordan were coming in return, it wouldn't be easy. losing charlie was going to hurt regardless. 

but i love tj ford. and i won't lie, i totally forgot about him. he's still on his rookie deal (albeit near the end), he's young, he's electric, he's a fantastic person and you can't help but cheer for _him_ either. he's another one of 'those'. or he's like charlie villanueva but happens to address a more pressing need at the moment. what's more, he's a texas kid- didn't some of us want another one of those last night?  imo, he's easily the 'best' player produced by the longhorn program- although i'm still not sure what that word means ('best')- but don't worry, i (think i) know exactly what i mean to say here. the fact that he's been in milwaukee and on the recovery stage has, imo, caused a lot of us to simply forget about him (imo). but i see this is a fantastic acquisition.

and let's not overlook his defensive repertoire: this man doesn't just run the floor, he's also a ball hawk. i don't think we've ever had that around the perimeter (damon certainly didn't qualify... i think the closest would've been mugs- childs had a reputation but he might've been past it by the time he arrived). also, i want to stress that tj is a collegiate legend who happens to have fallen off the map somewhat due to the abovementioned. in my mind, he's always belonged in the same draft class with chris, dwyane, melo and lebron. that's saying quite a bit right there- and we just got him! he's suffered more bad luck than have they but he's shown signs of late. 

this trade is _so_ good and yet *so* bad. i just want to get our new team on the floor so we can forget the bad and embrace/welcome the good asap. the former will slowly fade away and the latter will probably survive- even grow. we just need to get 'em on the court to move this process along. our team's already getting tangibly better while we still have our capspace, youth, flexibility and solid intangibles in line. this is good.

but there's one thing i won't forget: charlie's one year raptor tenure. i mean, he just delivered an interview where he claimed his heart was in this city and he'd prefer to remain a raptor for his entire career. that was touching- and so refreshing, primarily because it couldn't have been any more honest (i don't think i even trust chris as much as i trust charlie). his positive impact on this team and this city will leave its mark for many years, i suspect. his contributions around here should not be forgotten, and they won't. i get misty-eyed just thinking about them. good on ya, charlie. you're fantastic. you *are* a raptor4life in my book already. 

peace


----------



## rocketeer

Divine Spammer said:


> I don't understand the Bucks, though.
> That means Mo Williams will be their first PG, which is nice, but why give up T.J Ford?


to get villanueva. they give up ford at pg where they have other guys who can do a solid job and pick up villanueva who completes their frontcourt for a long time.


----------



## BEEZ

madman said:


> i am knida 50/50 on this, TJ can become a pass first PG, but i really liked Charlie V


 he already is


----------



## madman

trick said:


> Just read through the whole thread an no one has convinced me yet why this was a good deal. All I got was:
> "Oh man, a combo of Ford/Bosh is gonna be sick"
> without reason or explanation, or the always stupidly simple
> "we finally got that pass-first point guard we need".
> *But the kicker was the poster who mentioned charlie was "one-dimenstional"*.


go back and check, i was talking about Antoine Walker


----------



## babcock_sux

deal makes too much sense for raptors....kudos again to BC.

Back logged with CB, Rasho, AB in the front court, we HAD to trade Charlie. It's unfortunate but true. TJ ford will help in running a fast paced game and he's healthy after that freakish accident. Unfortunately, he's not the best shooter but we don't need him to score crazy amounts of points anyways. Charlie was good offensively, but his defense was downright awful. i love this trade. i was expected the raptors to trade charlie for one of the first picks to get foye, but TJ ford is a better fit than foye or marcus williams.


----------



## AirJordan™

Wow, Im surprised/speechless at this trade. i have no clue what to think about it right now. I wake up thinking it's just an ordinary day in Raptors Land and I find out Charlie V is traded...
i'm still sucking it in right now.....I really liked CharlieV though. I guess we now have our PG in TJ Ford.


----------



## mo76

flushingflash said:


> while i expect villanueva to be a solid pro, i dont think he'll be anything more than an atoine walker type of player.


Charlie V is taller and better at going to the basket (not that toine sucks either). You need to watch charlie V play.


----------



## Flush

I think we might have given up the bigger talent here. But I've never been a huge Villa fan on the raptors. He is a pure 4 IMO and it just wasn't going to work here.

People that are underestimating the Raptors need for a PG are not being honest with themselves. Without picking up another 1, this roster could have been one of the least productive in the league. Now we are potentially a playoff team.

Who else could have been aquired? This is likely the best deal to be had. Frankly I think TJ is one of the best young PG's in the league and could very easily develop into a perennial all-star.

He has a very good relationship with Mitchell and Bosh. 

It is important to remember that the team with the most talent is not always the best team. This piece of the puzzle fits * VERY * well on this roster. Cohesiveness cannot be overlooked.


----------



## Slasher

This is Bryan Colangelo's first bad trade. This trade, to me, absolutely makes no sence in terms of getting equal value back for Charlie Villanueva. 

If you remember correctly T.J Ford missed 27 games in his rookie season and then went on to miss 82 more games the following season, and 10 games this season. That is a total of 119 games missed of the 246 he could have played! Yes, a total of 48% of games that he could have played in, T.J. Ford missed due to injury!

I am left wondering what in the world Colangelo was thinking. Yes the team needs a point guard, but to trade one of the brightest forwards in the league for a very under-sized point who has missed half of his career due to injuries is mind boggling.

He could have at least acquired another draft choice along with T.J. :whatever:


----------



## aizn

interesting to note that we can still sign Charlie after 2 years. even though his option was picked up, it's not like he ended a toronto raptor on a sour note. i mean he still loves toronto, but i wouldn't be surprised if colangelo made a run for him after alvin + nesterovic's deals are done with.


----------



## Rhubarb

Just another thing on TJ, whom I've always had time for:

TJ is coming into a system which he should (theoretically) thrive in. You look at the Bucks system, then you look at the one which BC is implementing; TJ has _that_ much more of a chance to *maximise* his gifts, his abilities, his talents, his strengths.

Something to think about aside from the usual "coming off an injury" argument, or one which bases/judges itself upon the notion that TJ is only as good as we've seen thus far in Milwaukee. I don't think we did/got to see the best of TJ in Milwaukee, something I firmly believe we have an opportunity with now that he makes the jump across to the ACC.


----------



## Larry Hughes for Retirement

T.J is a beast, but I think the common rule in the NBA is you never trade a big (villa) for a little (ford). Plus you can try and make anyone a PG, see Mike James #'s this year, while finding a good big man is hard to come by.


Either way you both got your needs in the trade, who was your PG if James walked?


----------



## aizn

Flush said:


> It is important to remember that the team with the most talent is not always the best team. This piece of the puzzle fits * VERY * well on this roster. Cohesiveness cannot be overlooked.


i agree 100%. but you can't say that villanueva has more talent than TJ ford because they both play two different positions. that's like saying jason kidd has more talent than tim duncan. it's hard to justify either (other than championships) being the more talented player as they both do their own thing. i think TJ has incredible talent and if any of you are too quick to put down his potential based on his injury (it was an absolute freak accident the way he fell on the basketball court) you should watch this video.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CArz5yByZec"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CArz5yByZec" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


----------



## AirJordan™

On Sportnsetnews (well all sports channels/websites) they said we got TJ + cash for Charlie. Does anyone know how much cash we got?


----------



## dtron

im shocked and appauled, i was just talking to speedy last nite how the only player i didnt wanna see traded was villa, my heart is broken, bosh probably isnt too happy either
t.j. ford is defintly not worth the value the charlie is

1 less raptor fan in raptorland


----------



## MjM2xtreMe

aizn said:


> interesting to note that we can still sign Charlie after 2 years. even though his option was picked up, it's not like he ended a toronto raptor on a sour note. i mean he still loves toronto, but i wouldn't be surprised if colangelo made a run for him after alvin + nesterovic's deals are done with.



I dunno if Charlie want to be back here in Toronto. According to his agent he was upset with the trade and that he said that Villanueva will show the Raptors that they made the worst trade i history. He was also surprised that that was the only thing they could get for him.


----------



## Team Mao

It's an interesting trade in that I really think all parties come out looking good.
Charlie:
-goes back to playing PF where he won't have such a hard time defensively and still will be able to show of his versatility offensively. Playing next to Bogut, who's an excellent passing centre, will give him lots of scoring opportunities in the future. I think these 2 will be an excellent frontcourt combo for many years to come.

TJ:
-moves into a more uptempo team. Playing with two big men like Bosh and Bargnani will open up the lane, giving Ford more opportunities to take it to the hole for the finish or the dish. In Milwaukee, his big men played closer to the basket, meaning lots of big men in the lane making it harder to drive. There is less competition for playing time at the point here, so Ford won't have that pressure to worry about (could be good or bad really).

Raptors:
This team desperately needed a point guard. Looking at who is available in the league, I think that we couldn't have found anyone better for the team than TJ Ford, he's a much better option than Ridnour who many people have been talking about as a possible target. Charlie was a lot of talent to give up for Ford, but remember Dallas had to give up Jamison to get Harris, and as of now I'd take Ford over Harris.

Bucks:
Get their athletic young PF without creating any holes in their roster. CV and Bogut are going to be unbelievable in years to come, could develop into one of the better frontcourts in the East. Financially, Charlie is under his rookie deal for a few more seasons so no need to worry about resigning him for a while.


----------



## Darman

AirJordan™ said:


> On Sportnsetnews (well all sports channels/websites) they said we got TJ + cash for Charlie. Does anyone know how much cash we got?


1$ million.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2506375


----------



## dtron

close to 15 full pages on this trade, where on the bucks side theres only been a page a half on their trade thread


----------



## speedythief

Anyone who's been around these parts for a few seasons, the veterans of the site so to speak, know that I was on the Ford bandwagon in 2003 after his NCAA tournament performance. I wanted to draft him but we got Bosh and never looked back.

Ford is an excellent player. Easily one of the best young point guards in the league--not just one of the best prospects. He is fast as all hell, a good passer, explosive, and he can score despite having trouble with his jumpshot. His pick and roll will be way different than MJ's but I think he can be equally as effective, if not more so, due to his sheer quickness and ability to make passes.

Ford is one of Chris Bosh's best friends. This is going to go a long way to making Chris happy and maximizing _his_ potential. I was expecting a big year from Chris before... if this team has a big turnaround Bosh will be an MVP candidate this year.

Yeah, I said it.


----------



## icehawk

speedythief said:


> Anyone who's been around these parts for a few seasons, the veterans of the site so to speak, know that I was on the Ford bandwagon in 2003 after his NCAA tournament performance. I wanted to draft him but we got Bosh and never looked back.
> 
> Ford is an excellent player. Easily one of the best young point guards in the league--not just one of the best prospects. He is fast as all hell, a good passer, explosive, and he can score despite having trouble with his jumpshot. His pick and roll will be way different than MJ's but I think he can be equally as effective, if not more so, due to his sheer quickness and ability to make passes.
> 
> Ford is one of Chris Bosh's best friends. This is going to go a long way to making Chris happy and maximizing _his_ potential. I was expecting a big year from Chris before... if this team has a big turnaround Bosh will be an MVP candidate this year.
> 
> Yeah, I said it.


Not saying Ford isn't good, but we could have done better. Charlie and cash for just TJ? He's a RFA at the end of the month and locking him up for big money with his inconsistent play, poor shot, and spinal cord injuries is risky. However, we need a point guard and he's one of those guys that makes the other 4 guys on the court better.

Bucks won this deal IMO. Bogut and Villanueva? That's just sick. They still have two decent PGs, too (Mo and Bell).


----------



## lucky777s

I was one of the harshest critics of the Villy draft pick.

And throughout the year I was not always thrilled with Villy's preference for the 3 pt shot, and lack of D.

But the kid was definitely growing on me, and I saw real improvement from him in several areas. He is likely going to become a 20/10 player without Bosh ahead of him at his natural position.

This trade is RISKY. TJ has had a major injury and surgery. And I don't know that any PG other than maybe Chris Paul is worth trading a 20/10 big man for straight up. 

This trade smacks of desperation by BC. We had other options to fill in at PG for a year. The price seems a little high. Especially since we now have to commit to a big, long term deal with TJ almost immediately. 

BCol also went cheap with Rasho, who is a solid but very short term solution at C. Looks more like a 'get better quickly and worry about the long term later' sort of plan. Peddie will love it.

If Babs did these moves he could not walk the streets without a police escort. Where was the rush to get Jalen out and give up the DEN pick? Could have got our PG there.

Very questionable first summer for BCol and the gang.

This also puts HUGE pressure on Bargnani. The lower class fans will not be happy if he doesn't start strong. Could face boos by the same crowd that got on Hoffa so hard.


----------



## shookem

I like the trade, but I am a little worried about TJ being a RFA next year.


----------



## Argazzo

shookem said:


> I like the trade, but I am a little worried about TJ being a RFA next year.


ignore me, i am a spammer


----------



## shookem

Argazzo said:


> ignore me, i am a spammer


Ahh, yes my posts always get a great response.


----------



## Turkish Delight

icehawk said:


> Not saying Ford isn't good, but we could have done better. *Charlie and cash for just TJ? *He's a RFA at the end of the month and locking him up for big money with his inconsistent play, poor shot, and spinal cord injuries is risky. However, we need a point guard and he's one of those guys that makes the other 4 guys on the court better.
> 
> Bucks won this deal IMO. Bogut and Villanueva? That's just sick. They still have two decent PGs, too (Mo and Bell).



Just wanted to point out that the Bucks sent the Raptors cash with TJ Ford, not the other way around. 
Personally, I am really intrigued about this trade. This really depends on what type of impact AB will have on this team. If he is as good as Bryan and his staff believe he is, I think we've hit the jackpot. I just don't see how else we would have gotten a pass first PG without giving up a significant part of our team. In this case, that was Charlie who obviously became expendable since our three best prospects were all PFs.


----------



## Turkish Delight

shookem said:


> I like the trade, but I am a little worried about TJ being a RFA next year.


We'll just have to wait and see, but I don't know why he would go anywhere else. We have a great thing going here, and he is supposadely very good friends with Chris.


----------



## Gilgamesh

I have always liked Ford. The guy can just simply lead and not many PGs or players can say that. He is exactly the type of player we need and the guy knows how to push the tempo and change pace with his quickness. The back is a risk but we said the same thing about VC and the guy played 79 games for the Nets this past season. Obviously I also expect a physical to take place soon to make sure Ford is good to go.

Charlie V was solid during his rookie year and he looks like he has the potential to become a 20 ppg scorer but with Bargnani and Bosh we already have enough inside scoring assuming Bargnani becomes the player scouts think he can become. I like Charlie V but I seriously like Ford more and he brings what we sorely need...a PG who can run a team. I don't think it is a coincidence that the year when Ford went out, the Bucks stunk.


----------



## SickGame

My biggest concern is now for Bargnani.
Not only is he a #1 draft pick, he is now the indirect reason why CV3 got shipped out (a solid YOUNG player with alot of potential + a fan favourite).
If he doesn't have nearly the same impact in his first year as Charlie did, fans and this board alike are going to be screaming.
I really hope the kid works out, he looks like a great player, but he has the expection of CV3 to live up to


----------



## Flush

Many of you keep saying we could have done better, but fail to go into detail. I think TJ is the best young PG we could have gotten for CV straight up. Prove me wrong


----------



## speedythief

Flush said:


> Many of you keep saying we could have done better, but fail to go into detail. I think TJ is the best young PG we could have gotten for CV straight up. Prove me wrong


Basic business. Villanueva's value has never been higher, and Ford's is very low. Buy low sell high.

Only time will tell who won this trade.


----------



## martymar

shookem said:


> I like the trade, but I am a little worried about TJ being a RFA next year.


not if they sign him to an extension this year, just remember he is the same draft class as Chris Bosh


----------



## speedythief

martymar said:


> not if they sign him to an extension this year, just remember he is the same draft class as Chris Bosh


If they sign him this year they might actually get him cheaper because of the sketchy start he's had to his career. We could wind up having him on a Ron Artest kind of contract where he plays above his pay scale.


----------



## a_i_4_life

Flush said:


> Many of you keep saying we could have done better, but fail to go into detail. I think TJ is the best young PG we could have gotten for CV straight up. Prove me wrong




very well said :clap: :cheers:


----------



## It's_GO_Time

speedythief said:


> Basic business. Villanueva's value has never been higher, and Ford's is very low. Buy low sell high.
> 
> Only time will tell who won this trade.



How can Ford's value be "very low", he just generanted a trade for CV. I agree Ford could be a good fit for the Raptors, but on the surface the Bucks, at the very least, got some value for Ford.


----------



## speedythief

Kiss_My_Darius said:


> How can Ford's value be "very low", he just generanted a trade for CV. I agree Ford could be a good fit for the Raptors, but on the surface the Bucks, at the very least, got some value for Ford.


It depends on how much you think Villanueva is worth, I suppose.

Typically the team that trades down in terms of size loses. We'll see if that trend is repeated.


----------



## nwt

Charlie! ​


----------



## frank_white

I guess I'm at the the fifth stage of post trade trauma: shock, disbelief, anger, grief, and now ... acceptance. 

TJ Ford could be our Nash, if we are extremely, extremely lucky (but that's my main problem with the trade; it's going to take a lot of good luck for this to work out. An unproven Bargnani will have to pan out, and TJ will have to stay healthy). Time will tell.


----------



## different_13

i'll just copy what i said in the Bulls thread on the same topic just now:

"i say initially Milwaukee win this trade, simply because I believe Toronto could have got more for Charlie. However, Ford does fit their system very well, very fast, quite a good distributor, backed by another solid distributor (Jose Calderon) who's possibly a bit safer with the ball. They've got a slasher at Pg, a shooter at SG (MoPete), who knows what at the 3.. (i'm guessing their next signing is a swingman, a 2/3 to play the other wing spot with MoPete, backed by Joey Graham and PJ Tucker)

I see Nesterovic starting, but maybe getting just 20 minutes per night, 24.. (his career average, so he won't complain).
Bosh at the 4, for a good 35 - 40 minutes per night.
Behind them they have Bargnani, who can easily play both positions against second string opposition; and possibly they get Garbajosa over from Europe too (though i don't know his NBA position).
Point is, they now have pieces that allow them to play halfcourt as well as run'n'gun.

Milwaukee may win the trade, but it was a necesarry one for Toronto."

frank_white - He's no Nash (well, he's got bad D and can pass well...) but he can't shoot. Nash could shoot his team back into most games, and was more of a floor general i think. But i know whatche mean, hopefully Ford can fulfill a similar role for the Raptors.

also on TJ Ford - he's athletic as hell - anyone got a GIF or something of that putback dunk he had?
insane!

oh, and as this is the Raptors board - if Garbajosa comes over, what position do you see him playing? (presumably at second string)
I gather he's a decent 6'8, good at longrange shooting, don't know anything about his weight or inside abilities though (if he can bang enough to play inside 4)
A 3/4 european bigman shooter?


and who do raptors fans envision starting at the other wing spot? I don't see Joey Graham starting next to MoPete...


----------



## frank_white

Yeah, it wasn't a comparison of TJ and Nash's style of play per se. I was just drawing a parallel in terms of how Colangelo re-designs teams. His first major move again seems to be grabbing a pass first point guard.


----------



## chocolove

finally read through all 17 pages....

Anyways I had a feeling a big trade was gonna go down today, because I thought today was the start of free agent signings and MJ was about to be shipped off in a S&T. 

Charlie was a skilled bigman who could handle, make passes out of the post, and shoot a sweet jumper and those things would be missed. But TJ Ford is a speedy, athletic pass-first PG that can finish. Off the top of my head I can only think of a few guys like that, Devin Harris and Tony Parker, and they are a big part of the great teams the play for. (Ironically both those teams have a all-star PF like we do)

This trade is gonna look pretty bad when Charlie drops 48 on us, but when we beat them in the playoffs its gonna be sweet.

Anyways if we end up doing bad and get back in the lottery next year we can get a guy who does all the things charlie does because theres a few of them next year


----------



## FanOfAll8472

It's unfortunate to see Villanueva leave. I think there are some misconceptions about Ford though. He became a better shooter (probably because that was one part of his game he could work on while recovering) and despite his excellence in the fast break, he looked like a very average point guard in the half court sets. In fact, along with Mo Williams and at times Charlie Bell, I was disappointed in the PG's hogging and chucking. But that may have been due to the coaching scheme, as that has not been a trend throughout Ford's career. I still think he's a very good fit for the Raptors.


----------



## Zalgirinis

chocolove said:


> finally read through all 17 pages....


I hadnt enough patience for that. Anyway noticed that other than Raps fans liked the trade imediately. Raptors fans might exagerate Charlie a bit IMHO (always happens when you see your favorite player play more than others do). When I just heard about the trade I said wow what a good one for Toronto. Fills their need for PG quite good. Makes space for both internationals (Bargnani and Garbajosa) and that means you get much more fans in Europe. Well at least me (if Sam uses them right of course)


----------



## trick

Turkish Delight said:


> Just wanted to point out that the Bucks sent the Raptors cash with TJ Ford, not the other way around.
> Personally, I am really intrigued about this trade. This really depends on what type of impact AB will have on this team. If he is as good as Bryan and his staff believe he is, I think we've hit the jackpot. I just don't see how else we would have gotten a pass first PG without giving up a significant part of our team. In this case, that was Charlie who obviously became expendable since our three best prospects were all PFs.


Show me a link where it says the Raptors get Cash and Ford, because I provided a link where the Raptors had to give up Charlie and Cash to get Ford.


----------



## trick

Flush said:


> Many of you keep saying we could have done better, but fail to go into detail. I think TJ is the best young PG we could have gotten for CV straight up. Prove me wrong


Just like how Babcock could've got better with the Vince deal if he just waited. 

The key difference here being that one is Babcock and one is Colangelo. One will get accused of murder one night even though he would have a room full of allibis while the other could start committing one in front of your eyes and you'd say, "I didn't see anything, there was dust in my eyes."


----------



## trick

And why do I keep reading from pro-traders that the Raptors fill one of their biggest weaknesses all the while our biggest weaknesses have been defence and rebounding. How does Ford help either one?

While I do hate to repeat myself, I have to say it again:
I'm not against trading Villanueva for need, but I'm against trading him for need so soon. There is no reason to rush things when they concerning our better assets.


----------



## speedythief

trick said:


> Show me a link where it says the Raptors get Cash and Ford, because I provided a link where the Raptors had to give up Charlie and Cash to get Ford.


http://www.nba.com/raptors/news/pressrelease_070106.html



> The Toronto Raptors announced Friday they have acquired *point guard T.J. Ford and an undisclosed amount of cash from the Milwaukee Bucks* for forward Charlie Villanueva. Ford was the eighth overall pick in the 2003 NBA Draft.


----------



## trick

speedythief said:


> http://www.nba.com/raptors/news/pressrelease_070106.html


A man can admit when he's wrong. 

(But I still stand by my "no need to do this trade (yet)" stance.)


----------



## speedythief

trick said:


> A man can admit when he's wrong.
> 
> (But I still stand by my "no need to do this trade (yet)" stance.)


There has to be a reason we made the trade in the dying hours before free agency.

What that reason is is beyond me.


----------



## TDrake

Here's your link, Trick ...

Link 

I think those who question this trade really don't appreciate Ford's game - there's been a demand for a pass first pg on this board for months - now we've got one of the best young pg's in the league (2nd only to Chris Paul IMHO) and its not enough in exchange for Charlie? Comeon - Charlie's a nice offensive player and I wish him a great career, but with Bosh and Bargnani he wasn't going to be a big part of our team going forward.

I'm not saying we "won" the trade - Charlie could learn to play D and Ford's a bigger injury risk, but for the sake of improving our team, this is a great move, so why wait. :clap:


----------



## ATM

I like the trade, I didn't at first, but we weren't getting a better young passing PG than Ford. Charlie was great for us, and I have thought this for a little while, but it is possible that he realises he has proved the haters wrong and rests on his laurels. He is a great player, but I don't ever see him being an all-star.

I am excited to see who we nab in free agency.


----------



## sjinto

My thoughts...

CV was a great player on a bad team :angel: ... he'll probably still be an above average player in the league for a long time

We now have a great PG in Ford... He'll fill up the stat sheet consistently - it's tough to compare his game 1 for 1 vs Charlie but if you look at his role as a guard he's a great pickup

We have to see who BC can pickup in the free agent market... the quality of this trade will look different in a few weeks

IT'S FUN TO BE A RAPTORS FAN AGAIN!!! :clap: :clap:


----------



## Slade

Well one things for sure. BC is really getting rid of Babcock's stamp on the team. As for the trade, it would be easier to deal with it if CV wasn't such a quality guy with his off-court dealings. He even said he'd like to be a Raptor for life...that's what hurts the most.


----------



## TRON

after letting the trade soak in for about a day now....

I think Milwaukee got the edge in this trade, but in the long run T.J has the chance to be considered the better player, if he can lead this team deep into the playoffs.

Since Ford has played just 1.5 years in the league, I'd say his upside is just a good as Charlies, considering both averaged about 13/6 last year (rebounds for Charlie, assists for T.J

I'd like to see if he can round out into a great PG, or just an above average one. He's got all the skills to thrive, and will be in an up tempo scheme, so given the large amount minutes he will recieve he'll get a chance to show what he's worth.....I hope I'm not disappointed!!


----------



## TRON

I don't know if anyone mentioned this in a previous post, but now we have a T.J, and a P.J

Chuck Swirky...

*T.J to P.J back to T.J who finds P.J for threeeeeeee!!!!* :biggrin:


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## speedythief

TRON said:


> I don't know if anyone mentioned this in a previous post, but now we have a T.J, and a P.J
> 
> Chuck Swirky...
> 
> *T.J to P.J back to T.J who finds P.J for threeeeeeee!!!!* :biggrin:


Should call them T and P because neither of them have a J.


----------



## laydee-bawla22

CV is most definitely a more skilled player than TJ. But Ford will be more use to the team than CV was which is why I think it was a decent trade. TJ may not be able to score, but he will bring out more in the players we have which will cover up for the loss from CV. Yeah it would be great to have CV and a solid PG, but you can't have everything you must make some sacrifices. This was a good one.


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## bigbabyjesus

Keep it short and sweet.

-Like the deal, love Ford.
-I think I proposed this exact trade on this board before.
-A lot of you are overrating Charlie. We traded him while his value was very high, which is the smart thing to do.


----------



## TRON

> Originally posted by *Speedythief !*
> 
> Should call them T and P because neither of them have a J.


nice!! :biggrin:


----------



## BEEZ

IMO you guys that are upset are not thinking realistically. I like Charlie V, but hes appearing overrated on this Raptors board, with some of the responses you would have thought Bosh was traded for TJ. IMO you guys won this trade. How often can you get a top flight young PG who has clearly shown to make his team that hes on better than they are for a PF who moonlighted as a SF for another just as talented player in AB.

You get the PG you desperately needed in TJ and Villenueva is replaced by AB. Thats win win for you guys I dont understand the "horrible trade" and "we could have gotten more".

Ok, well then what more could you have gotten? What teams are going to be willing to give up a top flight PG that is pass first? The trade helped both teams and IMO Toronto won this deal. 

The Raptors just got scary good. I do think you need an athletic 2 on the team somewhere you guys are good to go.


----------



## Benis007

BEEZ said:


> IMO you guys that are upset are not thinking realistically. I like Charlie V, but hes appearing overrated on this Raptors board, with some of the responses you would have thought Bosh was traded for TJ. IMO you guys won this trade. How often can you get a top flight young PG who has clearly shown to make his team that hes on better than they are for a PF who moonlighted as a SF for another just as talented player in AB.
> 
> You get the PG you desperately needed in TJ and Villenueva is replaced by AB. Thats win win for you guys I dont understand the "horrible trade" and "we could have gotten more".
> 
> Ok, well then what more could you have gotten? What teams are going to be willing to give up a top flight PG that is pass first? The trade helped both teams and IMO Toronto won this deal.
> 
> The Raptors just got scary good. I do think you need an athletic 2 on the team somewhere you guys are good to go.


you just sold me on the trade.

PS nice comb over


----------



## Benis007

TRON said:


> *T.J to P.J back to T.J who finds P.J for threeeeeeee!!!!* :biggrin:


PJ has zero range and will be used for defensive purposes only.

one.


----------



## rocketeer

Benis007 said:


> PJ has zero range and will be used for defensive purposes only.


he won't only be used for defensive purposes, but he won't be in the game to be a longrange shooter. i think his rebounding and post scoring will help makeup for bargnani's weaknesses in those areas while bargnani's perimeter strengths will make up for tucker lacking in those areas.


----------



## Yao Mania

WOW. Just WOW. Great trade, Raptors are set to become a true franchise for years to come.


----------



## Rhubarb

Slasher said:


> If you remember correctly T.J Ford missed 27 games in his rookie season and then went on to miss 82 more games the following season, and 10 games this season. That is a total of 119 games missed of the 246 he could have played! Yes, a total of 48% of games that he could have played in, T.J. Ford missed due to injury!


Sorry, this sort of craptail spin on TJ is absolute rubbish.

I mean, the kid had a freak, serious injury that rubbed him out for 109 of those games. Instead of spitting out numbers that hardly do him justice, put things into perspective:

He played/started 55 games straight before the freak injury, which hardly was a case of his body "breaking down" as it would in what many would term an "injury-prone player". So that rubs him out for the rest of his rookie year - 27 games. That also rules him out for his year two, which is fair enough (it's hardly as if he "injured" himself consistently during that second year - not worth counting). So, he comes back in his third year, which is difficult enough as it is adjusting back to the tempo and continuing to develop (remember, he'd only played 55 games as an NBA player previous. The rest of his class have been in the system for two seasons or so now). TJ missed an additional 10 games that season - a mixture of low grade injuries here and there, nothing to sneeze at.

You state, and I quote, "119 games missed of the 246 he could have played! Yes, a total of 48% of games that he could have played in, T.J. Ford missed due to injury". That is a media-esque spin on the situation. Sensationalism at its finest. You make it seem as though he's constantly broken down over the course of the three years, which is hardly the case.

Sorry, that's utter crap, and I'm sick to death of people spitting that out.


----------



## Mr.God

Alright. I dont post on here much, since i just found the site. I've only read up to page 11 on this thread and was sick to my stomach with the amount of ignorance on this thread.

First off, people are saying Bargnani cant play the 3, whether or not he plays the 3 for the Raptors isnt even a sure thing. But the fact that people say he cant is completely rediculous. Not only is Bargnani a faster runner and a quicker overall player than Villanueva but by all ive seen he is a better perimeter defender with better lateral speed. Not great speed, but better than Charlie. Everyone was happy to have Charlie at the 3. Now what, because Charlie can make great dunks?! What is everyone here 8 years old and is mezmorized by dunks? Ive played basketball for 14 years now and actually hate the dunk, sure it gets the crowd into it. But dunking has become the whole game, no one gives a **** about the actual game of BASKETBALL, ya remember that TEAM sport where people pass the ball and take open shots, instead its been marketed to a bunch of retarded 13 year olds who only care about the higlight real dunks. Villanueva could hit a 3 too? Bargnani according to video ive seen and reports ive read can shoot from any spot on the floor and had one of the smoothest shots in the draft GUARDS included. Please besides flashy dunks and community support where does Villanueva make himself a better 3 then Bargnani. Yes i know he was a proven player and Bargnani was not, that is a big isssue no doubt. But the debate here is that Bargnani can not play a 3 becuase he is "too tall". Seven foot, Six-Eleven....wow thats a major difference... Oh but what about his community support...Charlie was great, ive met him on a few occasions a truly great kid and will miss him on the team, but that is not a reason to keep people. The end result is WIns and Losses, you cant win without a Solid Point Guard. I dont know about you but Joey Graham impressed me last year. 

In terms of a BASKETBALL team, this team is better now than it was before the trade and that is all you can be happy with. James was not the PG for this team AT ALL. Hes a selfish ******* who only cares about his statistics and money. I say good riddance. TJ Ford is a super fast PG who looks to get his teamates involved before shooting. OH, But he cant shoot, he sucks! Yea thats the main job of a PG in a fast pace game, to SHOOT!!! Thats right, man you guys are real basketball gurus, you should be GM not Bryan Colangelo! BTW Ford hit 41% FT last year after his injury and IMPROVED to .37% from behind the arc. Thats right IMPROVED! Who knew a kid who is 23 years old is still improving!

Listen. Villanueva is a class act and a great up and coming player and i wish him tons of luck with the Bucks, but the facts remain he is a PF playing out of pos at SF. This team needed a PG more then anything and TJ Ford at the old age of 23 is a great get for the Raptors. As someone else here stated in order to get something of value you need to give something of value. That my friends is how life works. You can have a team with no PG and a logjam of bigs who can shoot and not defend, or add a pure PG with speed and skills to run a fast offense with players who fit the system. Its not rocket science. 

PG Ford
SG Mo Pete
SF Graham/Bargnani
PF Bosh/Bargnani
C Rasho/Bargnani

BTW i personally think after seeing a lot of whole game footage of Bargnani i think he can play any frontcourt position in this league with good coaching. He is quick enough to play a 3, has enough size to add bulk and play the 4/5. I question playing him as a 5 only becuase the competition he would have as he looks to shoot more so then play with his back to the basket. I think he fits as a 3 best, but with coaching and his 7 foot frame he could play anywhere. His rebounding needs work as he was soft even in the euro league. Playing SF would allow him to concentrate on what he does best, shoot from the perimeter or take people on the dribble, not be too involved in rebounding, but at the 3 his height would be a major advantage for hitting the boards and finally to use his athleticism to run the floor. 

Disagree all you want, but this is a trade that makes the Raptors a better team for today and tomorroy. Just Like Villanueva, Ford has not even touched his full potential. And for injury concerns Ford came bakc and started in 70 games and avg.d 35 minutes, i would say he is pretty healed, the injury he had is not one that is typically a bother in each year. Taking the year off was a great move for his health.


----------



## Kapitalistsvin

@ Rhubarb: "You state, and I quote, "119 games missed of the 246 he could have played! Yes, a total of 48% of games that he could have played in, T.J. Ford missed due to injury". That is a media-esque spin on the situation. Sensationalism at its finest. You make it seem as though he's constantly broken down over the course of the three years, which is hardly the case."

_- word_ Ford had a freak injury, those can be taken care of. It's not like he has a bad knee or back that routinely eating into his games played. I think it's a good bet he's back for good.

For the "we could have gotten more" statements. Yes... I think you're right, like Steve Francis a multiple all-star and highlight reeler, or a big package of promissing swingmen from Celtics... but who'd want that on a team that just cleared up its roster and has the talent it needs - well that is apart from a young pass first speedy point guard. It doesn't help just getting more, if you're not getting the right pieces. Charlie wasn't moved to add up assets (as he was already a great one). He was moved to add a central, badly needed piece for the future and the playoff run next year.

With handchecking out of the toolbox for perimeter defenders speed has become a much more valuable asset (on both ends of the court).

Mike James starting next year, would just drag this team down. If he returns as a spark of the bench, then it's ok, but not as a starter. Ford can grow with Bosh and Bargnani, he could be part of the core for the next ten years, but he will also improve the team from day one.

I love the trade, not just for the Raptors, but for the NBA. CV will fit better with Bogut (who's a good passer and a C), and will fit better at PF.

If BC goes with Bargnani, then he also has to give him room. Can't bet and still don't be willing to risk.

Ford is a good rebounder from the guard position, and if Raptors goes big, with Bargnani at SF, the MoPete and Ford will need all their speed to keep the fast break threat on, and get back on D.

Bargnani has as much weight as O'Bryant, and still people say he's to small (7' - 7'1'') and to skinny for the C. He wont be a banger, but he's used to playing with men, not the boys of US college ball, he won't be taken out of his game that easy by the Przybilla's of the world.

I think this team just made the transition from 'potentially promising' to actually 'promising'... might be PO next year, and in two years these guys might be ready for round two. Hope Humphfries can bang and get dirty, if not then that might be the next thing to look for, an Oakley or Rodman - Balkman maybe (NY's #20 pick from this year). Isiah would probably take on a bad contract for him... maybe D.Lee + Balkman for Mike James!?


----------



## different_13

Isiah actually likes his young guys.
And Balkman's a 3, he's not even 6'7.
You're pretty stacked in the frontcourt, especially if Garbajosa comes over. Toronto needs a swingman, not a tweener.
Quentin Richardson would be a mutch better fit (not a bad defender either, and he has that Phoenix link with Colangelo).
I don't think a straight swap would work, and neither team really has pieces to work with (not with each other anyway) - NY's already got 4 shoot first guards, and i can't see anyone else NY would want from Toronto - maybe Kris Humphries? (if Garbajosa's coming over..)

How does Kris Humphries, Mike James for Quentin Richardson sound?


----------



## Flush

Mr.God said:


> First off, people are saying Bargnani cant play the 3, whether or not he plays the 3 for the Raptors isnt even a sure thing. But the fact that people say he cant is completely rediculous. Not only is Bargnani a faster runner and a quicker overall player than Villanueva but by all ive seen he is a better perimeter defender with better lateral speed.


Umm... he said himself that he doesn't think he is quick enough to play the three. BC said he thinks he will contribute right away at the 4/5 spots.


----------



## BEEZ

Kapitalistsvin said:


> For the "we could have gotten more" statements. Yes... I think you're right, like Steve Francis a multiple all-star and highlight reeler, or a big package of promissing swingmen from Celtics... but who'd want that on a team that just cleared up its roster and has the talent it needs - well that is apart from a young pass first speedy point guard. It doesn't help just getting more, if you're not getting the right pieces. Charlie wasn't moved to add up assets (as he was already a great one). He was moved to add a central, badly needed piece for the future and the playoff run next year.


In all honesty with what you guys are trying to accomplish here, would you really want a selfish player in Steve Francis, who initally dissed the Grizzlies because he didnt want to live/play in Canada. And once again, what has Charlie V done in this league to warrant getting a *"package"* of young swingmen?


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## MagnusPinus

I'm very happy for the trade, at first 4 Bargnani and then for the RAptors there are going to improve..
Vharlie is nice player,very talented but is not one of those guys u make better his team, I see him as one of those superb talents very nice to watch,that produces but for himself,not for the team..Tj Ford has flaws on his game but has that ability to make the mates better..and is a very very rare ability these days..He can't shoot ok..but as a playmaker I prefer having him than a scorer..this Team with Bosh and I really believe Mago will have 2 nice scorers 

The frontline with Rasho Bosh MAgo and Garbajosa is very competitive( Jorge..that in his career played also in Treviso..in an Nba perspective..to me is gonna to have a similar role to Bonner's one..but he is a superior player)
The backcourt with For and Mo pet is ok.. I just don't know Graham well, so I don't know if he can become a nice 3.. 
Anyway this team basically needs a perimeter shooter(and possibly defender..) but is on the right way.. 

Plus this trade is a very clear sign of the trust of the organisation towards Bargnani..if they traded Charlie they thought Mago is going to be a better player, and also a better fit for the team..Remember MAgo is at first a team player..he is a talent,but he won't claim for shots..he is humble..while I remember there were questions about Charlie's personality and attitude


----------



## trick

After sleeping through it for the past couple of days, I have already warmed up to the TJ/Ford/Bargnani experiment, and I was hoping someone would've posted something along the lines of "In 3 months, Colangelo has covered some weaknesses, kept the capspace intact and managed to spread the minutes around our roster, and you're still not happy?" argument against me, but it never came up. :angel:

Still, this trade will blow up in our faces if Charlie absolutely flourishes in Milwaukee. People post like how much Ford is such a perfect fit for Toronto all the while not mentioning how much Charlie is a perfect fit for Milwaukee. With Charlie the more talented player, it's hard not to imagine he'll overcome Ford's productivity and in turn have a better career down the line.

PS: The Raptors' biggest need was not "acquiring a point guard". I repeat, the Raptors' biggest need was not "acquiring a point guard".


----------



## Benis007

rocketeer said:


> he won't only be used for defensive purposes, but he won't be in the game to be a longrange shooter. i think his rebounding and post scoring will help makeup for bargnani's weaknesses in those areas while bargnani's perimeter strengths will make up for tucker lacking in those areas.


i don't think you can count on a 6-5 guy coming in to give you post scoring, sure the rebounding is a plus, but his grit and strength defensively .


----------



## Kapitalistsvin

BEEZ said:


> In all honesty with what you guys are trying to accomplish here, would you really want a selfish player in Steve Francis, who initally dissed the Grizzlies because he didnt want to live/play in Canada. And once again, what has Charlie V done in this league to warrant getting a *"package"* of young swingmen?


My point is, that even if Raptors could land Steve Francis (N.Y. would love that deal) or Tony Allen + Gerald Green, TJ Ford i the better deal. The other two, completely impossible trades are just meant to illustrate how hopeless the idea of 'getting more' is.

I does not help the Knicks that they time and again has "gotten more"...


----------



## Flush

trick said:


> The Raptors' biggest need was not "acquiring a point guard". I repeat, the Raptors' biggest need was not "acquiring a point guard".


What was it?


----------



## trick

Flush said:


> What was it?


Defense and rebounding...which is what we have been clamouring about just this past season.


----------



## buckaroo

trick said:


> Defense and rebounding...which is what we have been clamouring about just this past season.


Maybe we should forget about rebounding and defense for the coming rebuild season and just develop a high scoring team like the Suns who like to shoot the ball within the first 6 seconds of offense. In other words they just attempt to outrun and outscore the other teams who are labouring with defense. You don't need to rebound on offense if you are getting high percentage shots and you will always get your share of defensive rebounds.

I think that a gun and run game is going to be the Raptor style of play just like the Suns and defense may be developed as the team is rebuilt or maybe not. Bosh and AB could be our Marion-Stoudamire duo but with more height speed and scoring punch and wouldn't that be awesome!

I don't think we should expect much defense from the Raptors in the next season because defense is tough to do with a new rebuilding team. Now I wonder if Mitchell is the right coach for the Raptors.


----------



## trick

buckaroo said:


> Maybe we should forget about rebounding and defense for the coming rebuild season and just develop a high scoring team like the Suns who like to shoot the ball within the first 6 seconds of offense. In other words they just attempt to ourrun and outscore the other teams who are labouring with defense. You don't need to rebound on offense if you are getting high percentage shots and you will always get your share of defensive rebounds.


We could forget about defense and rebounding and just focus strictly on offense, yes. I wasn't trying to direct my stance over to "what type of player the raptors the raptors should trade for", but that I was getting a little peeved when people kept saying Ford filled one of the "most glaring need" when I feel getting a point guard wasn't as important defense and rebounding, which the Raptors were definitely ranked last or second-to-last.



buckaroo said:


> I think that a gun and run game is going to be the Raptor style of play just like the Suns and defense may be developed as the team is rebuilt or maybe not. Bosh and AB could be our Marion-Stoudamire duo but with more height speed and scoring punch and wouldn't that be awesome!


I have no problem going that route, and BC has stated that he wouldn't mind that direction since it works and draws a crowd. But if that is truly the route BC and the Raptors are going, would picking up Tyrus Thomas be a better option? That's another story though, and I'm happy with Bargnani. 



buckaroo said:


> I don't think we should expect much defense from the Raptors in the next season because defense is tough to do with a new rebuilding team. Now I wonder if Mitchell is the right coach for the Raptors.


Yes, it takes time to build a good team, one that will hopefully contend for the championship. I'm just hoping that things are not being rushed here, with the recent acquisitions that BC made in the course of 3-4 weeks.


----------



## Ownerofpueblo

If you needed defense and rebounding despite having villanueva and bosh up front, I think that only lends more strength to the argument of trading one of them (and making space for a solid defender).


----------



## trick

Ownerofpueblo said:


> If you needed defense and rebounding despite having villanueva and bosh up front, I think that only lends more strength to the argument of trading one of them (and making space for a solid defender).


Hence why we got Ford!!! Oh wait...

But I do agree that depending on what else BC does with the rest of the offseason, the CV/Ford deal may look more appeasing (to me at least). Though if by the end of the road, the whole point of all these wheelings and dealings was to get Peja here, I'm going to explode.

(Again, I was never against trading Villanueva. I was against trading him now when his value may have been higher, acquiring more assets in return than just Ford and cash) x10.


----------



## butr

Wow. I did not hear about his until Sunday. ****. You would think I would have heard it after watching 2 WC QF games. Man I hate not being on the edge of the news. This post will no doubt get lost in the 24525425 other posts.

I am not the biggest expert on TJ. But of what little I've seen, he is made for the BC game. IE As fast and quick as they come and a very good if not great passer. I expect some REALLY exciting ball. My only concern is his back. But I had those concerns at the draft way back. If BC is OK with his medical stuff, then I'm fine too.

This is the deal I tried to soften some of you up for as I saw a CV for PG deal coming. Unfortunately, the TOR fans fallling in love with players has gotten the best of some of you.

Best of luck to CV a great player and person. Welcome TJF. Nice job BC. This team is GOING to MAKE the PLAYOFFS this year.

Boo Yeah!!!


----------



## Benis007

blowuptheraptors said:


> This team is GOING to MAKE the *PLAYOFFS* this year.
> 
> Boo Yeah!!!


bold statement, but i co-sign.


----------



## Porn Player

Benis007 said:


> bold statement, but i co-sign.



I Tri Sign 

- I have always liked Tj's game 
- will help Graham (alley oops woooyeah) 
- finally some excitment in the ACC since VC's departure with Tj's flashy game 
- Makes room for Bargnani's to get greater minutes
- This trade has got me even more excited about next season


----------



## Brown_Balla

Damian Necronamous said:


> That's what they're saying...more to come...
> 
> Good trade for both teams.



Hi, im new to this forum and DITTO TO WHAT YOU JUST SAID DUDE!


----------



## AirJordan™

blowuptheraptors said:


> ...This team is GOING to MAKE the PLAYOFFS this year.
> 
> Boo Yeah!!!


Hell yeah, I quad sign. I cant wait to see our finalized '06-'07 roster. I wonder what other moves BC will make. The offseason has just begun baby!!! I can't wait till opening night. The Raptors will make the playoffs!!!! (Probably being too optimistic)


----------



## JuniorNoboa

trick said:


> Defense and rebounding...which is what we have been clamouring about just this past season.


Not sure about rebounding... but our defence has improved at PG, SF, and C.


----------



## trick

JuniorNoboa said:


> Not sure about rebounding... but our defence has improved at PG, SF, and C.


TJ Ford is certainly not a better than Mike James defensively. At SF, Villanueva was a liability on man-to-man, and hopefully Graham has improved in that area all the while Tucker/Garbajosa/Humphries are unknowns. I agree that Nesterovic improved our defense in the low post, though with the way Sow played last year that's not a big surprise.


----------



## martymar

This though just came to me, I know some people has criticize this deal and I've been on the fence just remember though Colangelo was the same person that Signed and Traded Joe Johnson for Boris Diaw


----------



## Kapitalistsvin

trick said:


> We could forget about defense and rebounding and just focus strictly on offense, yes. I wasn't trying to direct my stance over to "what type of player the raptors the raptors should trade for", but that I was getting a little peeved when people kept saying Ford filled one of the "most glaring need" when I feel getting a point guard wasn't as important defense and rebounding, which the Raptors were definitely ranked last or second-to-last.


But BC has chosen to go with Bosh and BA it seems... if they are weak defenders, lets back them up with a better defender (Rasho), but that wont get the championship, the defensive problems must be solved on the practise court. Dirk Nowitzki finally understood a bit of defense, and the Mavs whent to the finals.

MoPete is a decent defender right? And Joey is supposed to be(come) a stopper? Then it seems the team is all set. Mike James can be an ok defender, but he didn't solve the problem last year. I believe TJ's speed will prove to be the key to acceptable defense at PG.

If you wanted to trade for a defensive PG, you could have gotten a Mike James/Marcus Banks combo, doesn't look any better to me.


----------



## Scipio

martymar said:


> This though just came to me, I know some people has criticize this deal and I've been on the fence just remember though Colangelo was the same person that Signed and Traded Joe Johnson for Boris Diaw


So you are saying that BC traded away the better player for worse again? 

I like this trade for Toronto and I just love the way they are getting more diverse. Suits their city and fanbase. I see Toronto as the best place for any international player in the NBA.


----------



## trick

Kapitalistsvin said:


> And Joey is supposed to be(come) a stopper?


No, that was based on false expectations due to inane player comparisons.


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## martymar

Scipio said:


> So you are saying that BC traded away the better player for worse again?
> 
> I like this trade for Toronto and I just love the way they are getting more diverse. Suits their city and fanbase. I see Toronto as the best place for any international player in the NBA.


we should just sit and wait what happens this year and see the results it's to soon to tell


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## no_free_baskets

trick said:


> PS: The Raptors' biggest need was not "acquiring a point guard". I repeat, the Raptors' biggest need was not "acquiring a point guard".


ok, acquiring a pg may or may not be the biggest need on the team, but i think you do have to acknowledge the fact that it was indeed a glaring hole that needed to be filled, no?? i dont know about you, but i wouldnt feel comfortable in looking at a calderon/barrett/martin depth chart, to start off the season...

and just out of curiousity, what do you think would be fair value for cv? im kind of curious since i hear that a lot from the anti ford-cv trade..


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## no_free_baskets

JuniorNoboa said:


> I going to come off arrogant in this post... I've had a few tonight, and quite frankly after reading most off this thread, I am concerned about the general lack of logic that exists in our younger people. Common business sense / asset management is just plain lackingm, and it frightens me.
> 
> It's quite simple.
> 
> First, the simply acknowledgement that this is a lateral deal, both players are good, one can argue that either one is negligibly better then the other. If you say CV is much better, its not a logic issue but a lack of comprehension and understanding of basketball/
> 
> Second, ENTERING TODAY
> 1. What was our biggest asset? CAP SPACE
> 2. What was our biggest weakness? PG
> 
> How many good PG's were available in FA.. **** all - not the type of PG's we wanted on our team.
> 
> But now our biggest weakness is the 2/3 - which is much easier to fill through FA... and there will be options available in the trade market. Also remember that 2/3 can be sometimes interchangeable.. depending on the player... Mo can be a 3 for example.
> 
> SIMPLE LOGIC DICTATES THAT WE WILL MUCH MORE EFFECTIVELY USE OUR BIGGEST ASSET (CAP SPACE), WHERE THERE ARE MORE AVAILABLE OPTIONS. Pretty simple... maybe not for some of this group...
> 
> Common Sense Conclusion:
> - Great Deal
> - Equal Talent given up.
> - Can now much more effectively use our biggest asset.
> - BC shows awesome asset management.
> 
> 
> Note - My spelling and grammar sucks. By all means call me out on it. I'd rather have common sense



this is probably the best post i have read on the raps board all yr long...


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## CrookedJ

Wow just back from the cottage, crazy deal!! I like it, PG is a ***** to fill( ie us not having one since________ ) 

I would have really liked to see the "three headed line up" but TJ is solid. So now its the Euro / Texas. We got Bosh, Tucker and now Ford. Did Tucker & Ford play together there?
TJ has a chance to totally blow up in the this lineup, we're gonna be pushing the ball hard this year. What we need now are a few of the wing players that BC seems to be able to pull outta nowhere in other summers.

We ad a SF and back up 2 and we're set. Still got all that cap space ( or to take on more salary in trade)


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## Pain5155

i wouldve rather tested the free agent market, but if BC thinks its rite, then everyone thinks its right cause of his past.


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## Team Mao

Pain5155 said:


> i wouldve rather tested the free agent market, but if BC thinks its rite, then everyone thinks its right cause of his past.


Because the free agent market is stacked with quality young PGs this year?


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## MRedd22

clutchmoney said:


> it's a lie...no trade... so relax.



Dont you feel dumb


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## GuelphRaptorsFan

> This team is GOING to MAKE the PLAYOFFS this year.


I can't agree, not unless they make a big signing or two. In: Ford. Out: James. In: Bargnani. Out: Villanueva. In: Nesterovic. Out: Bonner. In: Humphries. Out: Araujo. In: Tucker. Out: E. Williams. In terms of next year, and next year only, I'd say Ford will be better (on this team) than James by a small margin, Bargnani will be worse by a fairly small margin, Nesterovic will be better than Bonner by a small margin, Humphries will be about the same as Araujo, Tucker will be about the same as E. Williams. I guess I might buy the argument that they'll be a bit better, but I don't see any reason to believe they'll add another 15 wins. I don't see that the offensive game has much room to improve and I don't see how they've improved their defense dramatically.


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## Team Mao

Just a question, why does everyone seem to assume that Bargnani won't perform up to Villanueva's level of last year? Doesn't seem to make any sense to me.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan

> Just a question, why does everyone seem to assume that Bargnani won't perform up to Villanueva's level of last year? Doesn't seem to make any sense to me.


At least from my point of view, it seems only natural that Bargnani, like virtually every rookie in NBA history, is going to take some time adapting to the NBA game. I think Bargnani will eventually be a better player than Villanueva will be, certainly more consistent, but Villanueva's advantage of having had a full year adjusting to the size and speed of NBA players and the style of the NBA game is too big an advantage to overcome in one year.


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## Team Mao

GuelphRaptorsFan said:


> At least from my point of view, it seems only natural that Bargnani, like virtually every rookie in NBA history, is going to take some time adapting to the NBA game. I think Bargnani will eventually be a better player than Villanueva will be, certainly more consistent, but Villanueva's advantage of having had a full year adjusting to the size and speed of NBA players and the style of the NBA game is too big an advantage to overcome in one year.


Sorry, I had misinterpreted your post to mean that Charlie's rookie numbers would be superior to Bargnani's rookie numbers. But many other posters have suggested that Bargnani will not put up the same numbers as Villanueva did last year, which I find hilarious.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan

> Sorry, I had misinterpreted your post to mean that Charlie's rookie numbers would be superior to Bargnani's rookie numbers. But many other posters have suggested that Bargnani will not put up the same numbers as Villanueva did last year, which I find hilarious.


No worries. Actually, in a separate thread, I noted that I didn't think that Bargnani would put up numbers quite as good as Villanueva's rookie year, but at the time, Bargnani was going to have more players ahead of him than Villanueva had had, so I assumed he'd get less PT. With Villanueva's absence, I would assume that, if he earns it, Bargnani will get the same PT that Villanueva got in his rookie campaign. That means that Bargnani should, in principle, end up with slightly more points than Villanueva got, although likely less rebounds and assists.


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## Team Mao

GuelphRaptorsFan said:


> No worries. Actually, in a separate thread, I noted that I didn't think that Bargnani would put up numbers quite as good as Villanueva's rookie year, but at the time, Bargnani was going to have more players ahead of him than Villanueva had had, so I assumed he'd get less PT. With Villanueva's absence, I would assume that, if he earns it, Bargnani will get the same PT that Villanueva got in his rookie campaign. That means that Bargnani should, in principle, end up with slightly more points than Villanueva got, although likely less rebounds and assists.


I think that Mago will be playing the majority of his minutes at the 4/5 with only Bosh and Rasho ahead of him. We all know Rasho will likely play no more the 25 a night, giving lots of minutes to Bargs at the 5. I would think that with so many minutes there Bargnani should be able to pull in more than 6 rpg.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan

> I think that Mago will be playing the majority of his minutes at the 4/5 with only Bosh and Rasho ahead of him. We all know Rasho will likely play no more the 25 a night, giving lots of minutes to Bargs at the 5. I would think that with so many minutes there Bargnani should be able to pull in more than 6 rpg.


I would be very surprised if he plays any significant minutes at the 5. Bargnani is a 4, and he'd be better suited to play the 3 than he would be to play the 5. I don't see him as the kind of player who would average much more than about 8 rebounds per 48 minutes in his rookie season in the NBA, and I don't see him averaging 36 minutes per game in his rookie season, so I don't see 6 rebounds per game in the cards, not for his rookie season. Even if he finds it as easy to rebound in the NBA as he did in the euroleague, he'd still have to average 31 minutes per game to get to 6 rpg.


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## Team Mao

GuelphRaptorsFan said:


> I would be very surprised if he plays any significant minutes at the 5. Bargnani is a 4, and he'd be better suited to play the 3 than he would be to play the 5. I don't see him as the kind of player who would average much more than about 8 rebounds per 48 minutes in his rookie season in the NBA, and I don't see him averaging 36 minutes per game in his rookie season, so I don't see 6 rebounds per game in the cards, not for his rookie season. Even if he finds it as easy to rebound in the NBA as he did in the euroleague, he'd still have to average 31 minutes per game to get to 6 rpg.


I can't see him being able to guard a single SF in the NBA and Colangelo and Gheradini keep talking about him like they plan to have him as a future 5. I think it's more likely that the Knicks win the Eastern Confernce next year than it is for Bargnani to be playing major minutes at the 3. 

Perhaps I should rephrase. He will be playing down low, but I think that it will be more of a two power forward lineup with him and Bosh while on offense. On defense, Bargnani already has more size and lower body bulk to man up against most centres in the league. Against the big guys, he will see limited minutes.


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## Flush

Team Mao said:


> But many other posters have suggested that Bargnani will not put up the same numbers as Villanueva did last year, which I find hilarious.


I hope he does, but you need to look at this more objectively. VERY few rookies are able to put up the kinds of numbers villa did. In most years those are ROY numbers. 

To expect someone to put up 13 and 6 in the rookie campaign is a pretty lofty expectation. Especially someone comming from europe who will take time to adjust to the quicker more physical game. 

As I said I hope he does, but I won't think he is a failure if he doesn't.


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## Team Mao

Flush said:


> I hope he does, but you need to look at this more objectively. VERY few rookies are able to put up the kinds of numbers villa did. In most years those are ROY numbers.
> 
> To expect someone to put up 13 and 6 in the rookie campaign is a pretty lofty expectation. *Especially someone comming from europe who will take time to adjust to the quicker more physical game*.
> 
> As I said I hope he does, but I won't think he is a failure if he doesn't.


Which year exactly did 13 and 6 win ROY? I can't seem to recall any.

Why would someone from Europe have a more difficult time adjusting than someone from college? He's been playing at a high level for a few seasons now and playing big minutes, unlike other euro-prospects of years gone by. In terms of quickness, yes it will be an adjustment but like I said, no more than for college players. He will be more prepared for the physical nature seeing as he's been playing against grown men for the past few seasons and from what I recall, he was matched up against some pretty big opposing centres in the playoffs this year.


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## open mike

hes the #1 pick for a reason

he will have a better rookie season than charlie.
he will have a better career than charlie also.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan

> Why would someone from Europe have a more difficult time adjusting than someone from college?


To pick two out of a list of many: Different language, different country. I wouldn't say it'll be dramatically harder to adjust, but it will be harder.


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## Team Mao

GuelphRaptorsFan said:


> To pick two out of a list of many: Different language, different country. I wouldn't say it'll be dramatically harder to adjust, but it will be harder.


In terms of the game itself?


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## GuelphRaptorsFan

> hes the #1 pick for a reason
> 
> he will have a better rookie season than charlie.
> he will have a better career than charlie also.


Lets not get our expectations set too high. This draft was, by unanimous agreement, very weak. Does he look like, on paper, a better player than Villanueva? Sure. But in many other drafts, he would have gotten drafted at the same position as Villanueva did.


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## GuelphRaptorsFan

> In terms of the game itself?


Its probably about equal, I would guess, to adjust to the NBA game when coming from the NCAA and the euroleague. It might be slightly harder coming from the euroleague, but likely not any significant amount. But the off the court stuff is all significantly harder to adjust to for a euroleague player, and anyone who thinks that off the court issues don't impact on the court is kidding themselves.


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## Gilgamesh

Team Mao said:


> Which year exactly did 13 and 6 win ROY?


What did Mike Miller put up the year he won it? Should be close if not under 13 and 6 but yeah to have a ROY only drop 13 and 6 shows you how weak a draft class is.

Anyways, projections are just opinions. I don't think many of us have seen enough of Bargnani except from Youtube clips to really conclusively judge how well he will do.


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## Pasha The Great

Good trade.


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## Flush

Gilgamesh said:


> What did Mike Miller put up the year he won it? Should be close if not under 13 and 6 but yeah to have a ROY only drop 13 and 6 shows you how weak a draft class is.


Ya Mike Miller (12, 4) and Amare (13, 8.8) are the only good comparions in the past few years. I guess 13 and 6 aren't always ROY numbers, however they are still excellent numbers for a rookie.



Team Mao said:


> Why would someone from Europe have a more difficult time adjusting than someone from college?


cultural differences which BC has touched on quite a bit. 

Not to mention the difference in game. NCAA plays a lot of iso's and fast break basketball like the NBA. The NCAA values athleticism more so than europe so the players are used to the speed of the game.

Europe is a much better game, yes. But it values fundamentals over speed. That is why so many vetern players get playing time over youth. It is a very high IQ game, but traditionally Euro's go through an adjustment period in the NBA. Only 1 euro has won the rookie of the year award in the history of the NBA. That says something. 

Not to mention most of the Rookies who averaged 13+ points and 6+ rebounds were often 22, 23, 24 years of age. Very few of them were 20, 21.

Big men often take time to adjust in the NBA. 4/5's traditionally develop slower than 1, 2, 3's. 

This isn't to say that Bargnani won't be a great player. I mean I championed the pick as much as anyone. I'm just saying 13 and 6 is a very high expectationfor the kid. And to imply that anything below that is 'Hillarious' isn't realy thinking it through. 

Colangelo himself said not expect big things right away, and people are ignoring that and puting very high expectations on the kid. All this despite BC's urging not to.


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## The Mad Viking

JuniorNoboa said:


> Do you watch basketball?


Word.

I can't really believe this guy has ever seen T.J. Ford play. Maybe he should read T.J. Ford's old draft profile.

Ford was taken 8th in the LBJ draft. After Wade @ #5, it was Kaman, Hinrich and Ford. If Ford had been available this year, no question he gets taken before Foye & Roy.


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## The Mad Viking

Benis007 said:


> PJ has zero range and will be used for defensive purposes only.
> 
> one.


RIIIIIGHT.

He outscored LaMarcus Aldridge, playing on the same team. But he won't be able to score in the NBA, while LA will be an all-star.



Have you ever seen Bonzi Wells or Ruben Patterson play?


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