# Are Pistons are the "world champions"



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

*Are Pistons the "world champions"*

McDonald's Cup:

If one of the European team beat the Pistons and Pistons finished with 2nd place, should we still call the NBA playoffs winner " the world Champions"?


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

Should never call it the world champions anyways. It's not the world champions. It's not even the U.S. champions. It's the NBA champions, period.

I would love to see a tournament between the champs of the world's elite leagues every year though. That would be great.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Well, this stuff of the NBA Champion = World champion is pretty funny ...

Obviousely it's not so, and a game between the NBA champion and the Euroleague champion will be a good idea ...


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## texan (Jul 10, 2003)

I'm pretty confident the Pistons could easily beat any Euro team or any National Team for that matter.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> Should never call it the world champions anyways. It's not the world champions. It's not even the U.S. champions. It's the NBA champions, period.
> 
> I would love to see a tournament between the champs of the world's elite leagues every year though. That would be great.


The NBA champion is not even the U.S. champions? Then what country are they playing in, Afghanistan?


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## rocketsthathavespurs (Jul 17, 2004)

lol and canada lol


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>texan</b>!
> I'm pretty confident the Pistons could easily beat any Euro team or any National Team for that matter.


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## The Main Man (Aug 10, 2004)

The Pistons are the best team in the best league in the world, therefore World champions is the proper term.


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

The Pistons definitely would've won on June 16, completely in sync like any foreign national team.

It just sounds better. Leagues say they have the world champs, that their's is the best game, that the athletes in their sport are the world's best, etc.

And I don't quite know how this makes the Pistons the champs, but the best players in the world are welcome. Darko gets his ring, Manu and Parker got their rings, etc. And if they were playing, would it be for their national teams or for their NBA teams?


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## MightyReds2020 (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Main Man</b>!
> The Pistons are the best team in the best league in the world, therefore World champions is the proper term.


Pure ignorance. A national title should not equals to a world champion, plain and simple, no matter how strong the nation (or league) is in that particular sport. Based on your logic, since Serbia & Montenegro won the real world title 2 years ago, their #1 national club would be a 'world champion' too. Can we have 2 current world champions at a same time?


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>italianBBlover</b>!
> Well, this stuff of the NBA Champion = World champion is pretty funny ...
> 
> Obviousely it's not so, and a game between the NBA champion and the Euroleague champion will be a good idea ...


you honestly think Maccabi(a team with NBA castoffs I might add) would beat Detroit


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MightyReds2020</b>!
> 
> 
> Pure ignorance. A national title should not equals to a world champion, plain and simple, no matter how strong the nation (or league) is in that particular sport. Based on your logic, since Serbia & Montenegro won the real world title 2 years ago, their #1 national club would be a 'world champion' too. Can we have 2 current world champions at a same time?


Ask Vince McMahon.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> The NBA champion is not even the U.S. champions? Then what country are they playing in, Afghanistan?


Technically it's not, because there are other leagues in the U.S.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> I'm pretty confident the Pistons could easily beat any Euro team or any National Team for that matter.


Under international rules? Maybe the pistons could, but I doubt the NBA champs would always win.


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## texan (Jul 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Technically it's not, because there are other leagues in the U.S.


So you are here saying that a NBDL or CBA or a team of another league in the US could beat the pistons or the NBA Champ? Unless you are claiming that then the Pistons are in fact the US champs.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> So you are here saying that a NBDL or CBA or a team of another league in the US could beat the pistons or the NBA Champ? Unless you are claiming that then the Pistons are in fact the US champs.


No, of course not. But champions are defined by who is most likely to win, it is defined by who does win. Since there is no unified tournament, there is no technical U.S. champ. NBA champ sounds nice enough.


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## texan (Jul 10, 2003)

Thats right there is no technical U.S. Champs but you know what, whos gonna stop the NBA champs from proclaiming themselves U.S. champs. To me the NBA champs are both the US champs and the World Champs to go along with NBA Champs.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>sboydell</b>!
> 
> 
> you honestly think Maccabi(a team with NBA castoffs I might add) would beat Detroit


Siena, Rome, Barcelona, Pesaro, Malaga, Athen ... why not ? put the two team on a parquet and let's talk the basket


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## dork (Mar 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>italianBBlover</b>!
> 
> 
> Siena, Rome, Barcelona, Pesaro, Malaga, Athen ... why not ? put the two team on a parquet and let's talk the basket



you talk the talk but you dont walk the walk, ill take it one step further lets talk the net, then well see..

pg- cee dawg billups
sg- rip dawwwg
sf- tashizzle
pf- Rashwizzle
c- Ben wallace izzle

not to mention da bench yahread, dont undermine no pistons chmp team yah eard? Italian dawg if yall got the nutz yall will abck up yo theory with some straight up fact..g g gg ggg G- UNITTTTTTTT, holla ya iatllian stallion, chingle your bilng bling , yo ching ching, w/e u guys call it up there in yourup, you wouldnt last a minute in the streets of winsconsin, so dont say **** unless you wanna talk ****..


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>dork</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice slang

Can I do a speech with the dialect of my northern italian province ? 

fun


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## dork (Mar 21, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>italianBBlover</b>!
> 
> 
> Nice slang
> ...


fo sho fo sho, as long as its in englizzle


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## Midnight_Marauder (Dec 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Under international rules? Maybe the pistons could, but I doubt the NBA champs would always win.


If the Pistons would play 50 games against the 'world champ' I am sure the other team would win a few times....but lets be honest.....that Pistons defense could shut any team down...


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MightyReds2020</b>!
> 
> 
> Pure ignorance. A national title should not equals to a world champion, plain and simple, no matter how strong the nation (or league) is in that particular sport. Based on your logic, since Serbia & Montenegro won the real world title 2 years ago, their #1 national club would be a 'world champion' too. Can we have 2 current world champions at a same time?


That would be true, except Serbia's best players come to play in the NBA.


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>italianBBlover</b>!
> Siena, Rome, Barcelona, Pesaro, Malaga, Athen ... why not ? put the two team on a parquet and let's talk the basket


I think it's not even a year ago when the Memphis Grizzlies (lottery team at that time) beat the then Euroleague champ FC Barcelona.

No Euroleague team could beat an NBA team. They might win one out of 50 games, but that's it.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bender</b>!
> 
> I think it's not even a year ago when the Memphis Grizzlies (lottery team at that time) beat the then Euroleague champ FC Barcelona.
> 
> No Euroleague team could beat an NBA team. They might win one out of 50 games, but that's it.


Now that you mention it, I do remember that.

Gasol lead the Grizz with 18, they won 91-80. In Spain.


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## Biscarat (Aug 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Midnight_Marauder</b>!
> 
> If the Pistons would play 50 games against the 'world champ' I am sure the other team would win a few times....but lets be honest.....that Pistons defense could shut any team down...


BUt what happens if they lose that one decisive game? You are all forgetting that teams tend to have off-nights.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Why does the games have to *always be under international rules*, where they constantly de-emphasize post play? If you get rid of the trapezoid lane, the Pistons smoke anyone in front of them, because now they actually have to worry about post scoring.

If we play with funky international rules, it makes it closer. 

The lane should be rectangular, not a trapezoid.


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## Azamad Bagatov (Jul 15, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>dork</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


**Edited: Completely inappropriate. Please don't post pictures or links to pictures/sites that contain anything that's not allowed on this site, including cursing. Thanks.**


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Why does the games have to *always be under international rules*, where they constantly de-emphasize post play? If you get rid of the trapezoid lane, the Pistons smoke anyone in front of them, because now they actually have to worry about post scoring.
> 
> If we play with funky international rules, it makes it closer.
> ...


Exactly.


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## Ravnos (Aug 10, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> The lane should be rectangular, not a trapezoid.


Why? To allow for more post scoring? Is more post scoring inherently better than less post scoring?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ravnos</b>!
> 
> 
> Why? To allow for more post scoring? Is more post scoring inherently better than less post scoring?


Because it makes it easier for Euro teams to defend since American bigs can't load up on the box. It's the reason many Euro players become ineffective in the NBA on the post, because they like facing up and have no back to the basket game to speak of.

The trapezoid was created to help international teams against American teams. If the rules were played the way they were created, our post game would rule and foul out most of your guys.


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## Ravnos (Aug 10, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Because it makes it easier for Euro teams to defend since American bigs can't load up on the box. It's the reason many Euro players become ineffective in the NBA on the post, because they like facing up and have no back to the basket game to speak of.
> ...


First of all, I'm American and the Europeans aren't "my guys." I was just wondering why you think the game should be played a certain way. It seems that the reason is so that American players get the advantage, instead of Europeans. 

Also, was the trapezoid really created with the specific intention of helping international teams against Americans? Not saying I don't believe you, but it doesn't seem like a very good reason, because the Europeans play each other far more often than they play Americans. A link about the trapezoid would be nice.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ravnos</b>!
> 
> 
> First of all, I'm American and the Europeans aren't "my guys." I was just wondering why you think the game should be played a certain way. It seems that the reason is so that American players get the advantage, instead of Europeans.
> ...


The trapezoid was clearly to help international players, a place where a post-game isn't as widely used as it is for American play. I think it's stupid, it basically says hey Duncan, yea you have a post game but, you can't use it. I'm not sure if it was in use when Shaq was playing, but it wouldn't have effected him all that much, because Shaq can back some guy down and catch the ball in like 1 second... But for a guy like Duncan, who needs time, it kinda sucks. That goes for any other post player, like Amare, Boozer, and others...


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> The trapezoid was created to help international teams against American teams.


I hope you're jocking  

And why the world must play with the NBA rules if the 99% of the other leagues play with the FIBA rules ?


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

what came first the NBA or FIBA?


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## Ravnos (Aug 10, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> The trapezoid was clearly to help international players, a place where a post-game isn't as widely used as it is for American play. I think it's stupid, it basically says hey Duncan, yea you have a post game but, you can't use it. I'm not sure if it was in use when Shaq was playing, but it wouldn't have effected him all that much, because Shaq can back some guy down and catch the ball in like 1 second... But for a guy like Duncan, who needs time, it kinda sucks. That goes for any other post player, like Amare, Boozer, and others...


Despite your insistence upon why the trapezoid is used, I'd still like some kind of link that would support your position. And again, don't the Europeans play other Europeans a lot more than they play Americans? It doesn't make sense to make a trapezoid lane just for those few times they play Americans.


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## Ravnos (Aug 10, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>sboydell</b>!
> what came first the NBA or FIBA?


What came first doesn't matter. What does matter is with what rules the majority of the world plays. It is a world competition isn't it? If a European team were to play an NBA exhibition game against an NBA team, then it would make sense to use NBA rules. But Olympic basketball has nothing to do with the NBA.


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

Of course the Pistons are the world champs, in club basketball. The NBA is by far the superior club basketball league in the world. The best players in the world play in the NBA, with few exceptions. Much like the best club league in hocky is the NHL, and the best club league in baseball is MLB. In soccer, however, there isn't one uber club league, so the English/Spanish/German/Italian champ really can't call themselves world champs.


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Ravnos</b>!
> 
> 
> What came first doesn't matter. What does matter is with what rules the majority of the world plays. It is a world competition isn't it? If a European team were to play an NBA exhibition game against an NBA team, then it would make sense to use NBA rules. But Olympic basketball has nothing to do with the NBA.



I was asking a question not making a statement but thanks for not answering it 

I agree with you

I was just wondering when FIBA was created


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## Bad Bartons (Aug 23, 2002)

*NBA Champions should play in the Olympics*

This is just one more reason why the USA should send the NBA Champions to the Olympics.

The Pistons would be destroying the international competition that the "Dream Team" is struggling against... and it does not matter what rules are used or the shape of the lane.


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## Jwill55gRizZ (Jun 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Ask Vince McMahon.


 ya i think mcmahon would be the one to ask in this situation..


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## MightyReds2020 (Jul 19, 2002)

It's not a matter of which team is stronger or which nation has the strongest collection of basketball players. As long as a league is operate under only certain geographical area of the world, there should NEVER be a 'World Champion' coming out of this league. It is a total DISRESPECT to the rest of the countries.

This world does not revolves around the US. That is why so many people hates Americans!


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Well the NBA isn't just a U.S. league, and yes, the basketball world DOES revolve around the the NBA.

And you can argue that the NBA DOESN'T operate under certain geographical areas because the league is composed of the best players from all over the world. It doesn't make a difference where they play the games, it's still the best league with the best players. It's not being disrespectful to anyone because the NBA champion is the only team that has a legitamate claim as the world champion.

Saying the NBA champs aren't world champs because they haven't beaten some scrub club in europe is like saying the heavyweight champion in boxing isn't the real world champion because he hasn't beaten me. It's ridiculous.

The NBA is the best league in the world with the best players. Whoever wins that league is naturally the world champions of club basketball.


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## gfunk (May 29, 2004)

ok, lets simplify this.

detriot pistons = won nba finals

but win nba finals = world championship? 

NO

i am taken by shock the results of the poll. i mean, WTF? the pistons lose to a team, fair and square, but they still are the world champions because they were the best in their OWN league? who the **** cares if the NBA is the best league. u gotta PROVE that ****. a poll isnt proof, so who cares that "everybody can agree that the NBA is the best league." just cuz of this, it doesn't mean the detriot pistons could beat all teams. there may be an extremely good foriegn team somewhere unfortunately surrounded by inferior ones in a underrated league that could beat pistons. who cares if their league sux, maybe that one team is better than the pistons.

this is just as ignorant as saying the winner of the west will win, because it is superior to the east. <--- understand that? SAME LOGIC


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## Azamad Bagatov (Jul 15, 2004)

Look at the US Olympic team...It's a selection from a league that has the world champion...They even got the coach from the world champion...

You americans are so arrogant and so nationalistic.


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## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

> you honestly think Maccabi(a team with NBA castoffs I might add) would beat Detroit


That is exactly what Detroit is, a team full of NBA castoffs, undrafted guys and CBA players.


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## Torim (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> If the rules were played the way they were created....


Sure, let's get rid of the shot-clock and disallow dunking again 
And I am sure that the FIBA put in the trapzoid lane with the evil intent of beating an American team after 50 years of having that zone in effect.

(FIBA was founded 1932 and the NBA in 1946 btw ....)


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## Azamad Bagatov (Jul 15, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Torim</b>!
> 
> 
> Sure, let's get rid of the shot-clock and disallow dunking again
> ...


@ Hong Kong Fooey

You got owned


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

thanks for proving my point Azamad. just go away.


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## Azamad Bagatov (Jul 15, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> thanks for proving my point Azamad. just go away.


OK, I go... Bye Bye...


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> thanks for proving my point Azamad. just go away.


I love you spriggans.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

serbia & montenegro are the world champions


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## radronOmega (Aug 1, 2004)

*re*

ok, lets simplify this.

detriot pistons = won nba finals

but win nba finals = world championship? 

NO

i am taken by shock the results of the poll. i mean, WTF? the pistons lose to a team, fair and square, but they still are the world champions because they were the best in their OWN league? who the **** cares if the NBA is the best league. u gotta PROVE that ****. a poll isnt proof, so who cares that "everybody can agree that the NBA is the best league." just cuz of this, it doesn't mean the detriot pistons could beat all teams. there may be an extremely good foriegn team somewhere unfortunately surrounded by inferior ones in a underrated league that could beat pistons. who cares if their league sux, maybe that one team is better than the pistons.

this is just as ignorant as saying the winner of the west will win, because it is superior to the east. <--- understand that? SAME LOGIC

----------------------


Use common sense??? The BEST team in the BEST League is the BEST in the world. It's common sense. They are better conditioned, more proven, more consistant, more skilled, and superior in just about every way IMO. The refs are better because they go through situations every day, referee every other day, and follow more advanced plays. NBA players are better than International players because NBA has a full season, year long, and a tough 82 game schedule that spreads across a country bigger then your friggen continent IMO. Tournamnets are a crapshoot, anyone can win in international tournemnts. In the NBA, you have to have one of the best records over a period of 82 games, ruling out any fluke teams. Those teams then play several rounds of SEVEN game series. 

Our olympic team may not be the best team, but our NBA champion team is. The champion team is battle tested and has good communication and jells together.


International rules are cheating to US. Taking out the post play which is a VITAL part of basketball, is just unfair to NBA centers, which are the best centers in the world by the way. It's like taking out the three point line, how would international people feel if we played them with our rules and no three point line to take away their advantage. It's unfair right??? We play by your international rules, but it doesn't mean it's the right rules. The NBA is the ELITE league, why do you think your little euro boys wanna come play here. Where your "legends" are bench warmers in the nba. 

Nba talent>>>>>>>>International talent

Don't tell me your team is better just because it gels. Our NBA champions gell and have talent. That's like saying 15 toothpicks is stronger then an iron rod 5 inches thick just because tehre are several toothpicks. It's just not true.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

They are the NBA Champions, not the world champions. Same with the NHL and MLB.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: re*



> Originally posted by <b>radronOmega</b>
> 
> Use common sense??? The BEST team in the BEST League is the BEST in the world. It's common sense. They are better conditioned, more proven, more consistant, more skilled, and superior in just about every way IMO. The refs are better because they go through situations every day, referee every other day, and follow more advanced plays. NBA players are better than International players because NBA has a full season, year long, and a tough 82 game schedule that spreads across a country bigger then your friggen continent IMO. Tournamnets are a crapshoot, anyone can win in international tournemnts. In the NBA, you have to have one of the best records over a period of 82 games, ruling out any fluke teams. Those teams then play several rounds of SEVEN game series.
> 
> ...


- many european players play 70 and more games per season ( regular season + play off country league + regular season + top 16th + Final 4 Euroleague.

- the best european players go in the NBA for more moneys and more celebrity ... quite simple, no ? but it doesn't signify that that league is the best.

"The BEST team in the BEST League is the BEST in the world"

What prove this thing ? make a game (or a serie) with the winner of the Euroleague, then we can talk of all you want ...

In any case nobody is saying that NBA isn' the best league of the world, but only that, maybe, it's a bit overhyped.

'night


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## 4-For-Snapper (Jan 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>texan</b>!
> I'm pretty confident the Pistons could easily beat any Euro team or any National Team for that matter.


There's only one way to know...send the Pistons (or whichever team is the reigning NBA champs) to the Games. That would prove whether or not they are deserving of the "World Champions" moniker.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>4-For-Snapper</b>!
> 
> 
> There's only one way to know...send the Pistons (or whichever team is the reigning NBA champs) to the Games. That would prove whether or not they are deserving of the "World Champions" moniker.


Mmm, a national team VS a club team ... this can't work.

Better a sort of "Final 4" between clubs/franchises with the NBA champion, the Euroleague champion, the south american and asian (with Oceania) club champions.

So were the McDonald opens, do you remember ? obviousely this new thing must be in a more serious way ( MD was more a entertainment).

'night


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

This "Final 4" sounds nice in theory, but the fact remains that all of these other countries best players, for the most part, are playing in the NBA.

Is the world champion in a sport like boxing less of a champion because he hasn't beaten the best boxer from every country?

You don't have to beat everyone to be considered the world champ, you just have to beat the best. Playing clubs from Europe and South America would honestly just be a waste of the NBA champions time. It would be like if the University of Connecticut were to start claiming the Pistons weren't the best team in the country because they didn't beat them. They don't HAVE to beat them.

Anyway, I always refer to them as the NBA champs. It's not like the NBA champions proclaim themselves "world champions" or anything. It's just something people say.


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MightyReds2020</b>!
> It's not a matter of which team is stronger or which nation has the strongest collection of basketball players. As long as a league is operate under only certain geographical area of the world, there should NEVER be a 'World Champion' coming out of this league. It is a total DISRESPECT to the rest of the countries.


Huh? The NBA accepts the best players in the world. this agrument would only have validity if they limited themselves to NBA players. The best players in the world play in the NBA. The rest play in the other leagues in the world. 



> This world does not revolves around the US. That is why so many people hates Americans!


Because your argument is flawed?


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: Re: re*



> Originally posted by <b>italianBBlover</b>!
> 
> - the best european players go in the NBA for more moneys and more celebrity ... quite simple, no ? but it doesn't signify that that league is the best.


Actually, that is exactly what symbolizes that the NBA is the best. They get the best players in the world. For money and fame? Sure, but that's part of what makes the NBA the best league in the world. There would be no money or fame if it were full of a bunch of scrubs. See MLS in soccer (or football, or whatever you want to call it) as proof. It's a second rate (or third rate) league in soccer, because they don't have any money or fame to offer their players.



> prove this thing ? make a game (or a serie) with the winner of the Euroleague, then we can talk of all you want ...


Why? The Euroleague is nowhere near the level of the NBA. If it were, why would Dirk and Peja and AK and Gasol move thousands of miles across the world when they could play in their own prestegious league?


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## gfunk (May 29, 2004)

*Re: re*



> Originally posted by <b>radronOmega</b>!
> Use common sense??? The BEST team in the BEST League is the BEST in the world.


no, its not.

that would be the same as saying the best team in the best division is the best team in a league. but this is not true either. 

however, the thing that makes me angry is how anyone can put a title talking about the WHOLE world on a championship in a NATIONAL competition. no matter what, you cannot compare these two things. remember, there's still other teams out there. (hello?)

a world champion = the team that can beat ANY other team in a fair series.

the only way to prove that detriot is better than some other foriegn team is if they play each other in a fair series. NO other analysis, polls, comparisons can do. only a true game.

i just such a title (WORLD champion) very ignorant. why can't any other league say the same for themselves? because the US always wins the international titles? well, Serbia & Montenegro won it in 2002 - shouldn't their best team be called the world champion, if we are counting on the competition of the national teams?

thus, there is NO team that should EVER be called a world champion unless that team actually has played every other team. remember, a team is a team. a league is a league. they are two separate things. even if the NBA was the greatest league in the world, we must realize that its best team is not necessarily better than all other teams - just as although the nba west is better than the east, the west's best team is not necessarily better than the east's best team.


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## JazzMan (Feb 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: re*



> Originally posted by <b>gfunk</b>!
> 
> 
> no, its not.
> ...


Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

National World Champions?? What the hell kind of sense does that make??

Yes, the NBA is CURRENTLY the best league in the world, with the majority of the best players. However, the champions cannot call themselves OFFICIAL world champions without playing in a competition open to teams from all over the world. Serbia & Montenegro are the offical World Champions because they won the World CHampionship (you follow the logic?).

The team that wins the NBA are NBA champions!

The media are free to speculate about who is the best club team in the world, but no organisation can call their champions "World Champions" without them playing a game to prove it.


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

*Re: Re: re*



> Originally posted by <b>gfunk</b>!
> 
> however, the thing that makes me angry is how anyone can put a title talking about the WHOLE world on a championship in a NATIONAL competition. no matter what, you cannot compare these two things. remember, there's still other teams out there. (hello?)


The NBA is not a national competition. It is the best league in the world by a large margain. The league is open to any of the best players in the world. The best players in the world play in the NBA. The absolute pinnicle of a professional basketball playing career is playing in the NBA. 



> a world champion = the team that can beat ANY other team in a fair series.


Since when? A world champion is one who is the best at one's sport/whatever in the entire world. In profressional basketball, that is the Pistons. The nice thing about the NBA is that it is the undisputed best league in the world, making a world champ pretty easy to find, as opposed to soccer leagues in Europe, where they have to do a Champions League tourney to determine that.



> the only way to prove that detriot is better than some other foriegn team is if they play each other in a fair series. NO other analysis, polls, comparisons can do. only a true game.


You got to be kidding. Detroit goes thru the gauntlet that is the NBA playoffs, and then has to defeat teams that couldn't beat the Hawks on a good day to prove they are the best professional basketball team in the world? Why?



> i just such a title (WORLD champion) very ignorant. why can't any other league say the same for themselves? because the US always wins the international titles? well, Serbia & Montenegro won it in 2002 - shouldn't their best team be called the world champion, if we are counting on the competition of the national teams?


National teams and club teams are two different animals. They have no bearing on each other, really, if you are trying to determine the best club team. Especially in basketball, where the best players in the world go to play in the NBA. If they went to play in Serbia, then you might have some credence in calling the Serbian champ the world champ, but not even then, unless pretty much all the best players in the world went to Serbia to play.



> thus, there is NO team that should EVER be called a world champion unless that team actually has played every other team. remember, a team is a team. a league is a league. they are two separate things. even if the NBA was the greatest league in the world, we must realize that its best team is not necessarily better than all other teams - just as although the nba west is better than the east, the west's best team is not necessarily better than the east's best team.


Apples and oranges. The Western Conference and Eastern Conference are in the same league, and the level of compeition is much more level than Euro teams, places where scrubs like Trajdon Langdon can go and be effective players, while he rode the bench for an awful Cavs team in the NBA.

You can sit and argue all day that the best Greek/Israeli/Italian/etc. league team is not necessarily worse than the NBA champ, but I doubt any NBA player, or any Greek/Israeli/Italian/etc. league player would agree, particularly when the goal of the latter players is to make the NBA.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

This thread is becoming demential ...


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

> The nice thing about the NBA is that it is the undisputed best league in the world, making a world champ pretty easy to find, as opposed to soccer leagues in Europe, where they have to do a Champions League tourney to determine that.


the club that wins champions league is not a world champion. it is the champions league winner. the national team that wins the world cup is the world champion. 

I'd say the title world champion clearly refers to national teams, therefore pistons can't be a world champion. they are the best basketball club in the world, but not world champions.


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## Scipio (Feb 18, 2004)

In football they actually do play for the title of best football club in the world. 

I don't think we can ever explain this thing to some americans that you cannot be world champion unless you have played a tournament with the other national winners. And that's what Detroit is...a NATIONAL champ. I don't think anyone here doesn't believe that Detroit wouldn't win if such tournament would be held but as long it's not, Detroit is NBA champ. Nothing more, nothing less.

Serbia and Montenegro is the World Champion. In club level you cannot claim that title to any team despite the fact that your league is the best in the world. Simple as that.


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## JazzMan (Feb 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Scipio</b>!
> In football they actually do play for the title of best football club in the world.
> 
> I don't think we can ever explain this thing to some americans that you cannot be world champion unless you have played a tournament with the other national winners. And that's what Detroit is...a NATIONAL champ. I don't think anyone here doesn't believe that Detroit wouldn't win if such tournament would be held but as long it's not, Detroit is NBA champ. Nothing more, nothing less.
> ...


:clap: :clap:


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## AtomGreen (Jun 7, 2004)

All of you Euro bball fans, please step-up and inform me of my miscalculation but if America truly presented it's best team do you honestly think that these international games would be anything but a blowout in America's favor?

What logic tells you otherwise? 

PG-Jason Kidd
SG-Kobe Bryant
SF-Kevin Garnett
PF-Tim Duncan
C-Shaquille O'Neal

Bench:
Ray Allen
Tracy McGrady
Rasheed Wallace
Ron Artest
Jermaine O'Neal

No international team in the world could even compete with that squad. That's fact, plain and simple. So feel good about beating this current American team, but if you think this is even close to America's best, you're sadly misinformed. 

The NBA is and always will be the best and most talented league in the WORLD.


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## Torim (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>AtomGreen</b>!
> All of your Euro bball fans, please step-up and inform me of my miscalculation but if America truly presented it's best team do you honestly think that these international games would be anything but a blowout in America's favor?


Uhm...I, like 95% of all people in this little world, would not have thought that this team would lose a single game. Not only was every game horrible they also have been blown out in 2 games.

So what one thinks is apperently totally irrelevant, only the results count.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Scipio</b>!
> And that's what Detroit is...a NATIONAL champ.


Wrong. 

The NBA is not a national league. It is a world league. The happen to play the games in America, but it is a WORLD league.

The Pistons had players and coaches from all over the world, NBA games are played in 2 different countries, and while American players compose most of the league, there is still a large percentage of foreign players.

Club basketball and national basketball might as well be different sports so Serbia winning the world championships has nothing to do with this topic.

Either way guys, it's not like the NBA Finals are called the World Championships. It's just something people say, because, face facts here, the NBA champions are the best club team in the world, and it's not even close.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Some posts of this thread comment themself :no:


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## AtomGreen (Jun 7, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Torim</b>!
> 
> 
> Uhm...I, like 95% of all people in this little world, would not have thought that this team would lose a single game. Not only was every game horrible they also have been blown out in 2 games.
> ...


You mean the current team? I don't know who you're talking about with that 95% crap but there was a LOT of talk, in America, on ESPN, on Fox Sports, in the papers, all over the place about how this team is vulnerable as hell with no inside game outside of Duncan, no perimeter scorers anywhere in the lineup and all the youngsters that the USA basketball association had to settle for.

This current team USA, outside of Duncan and Iverson, is a bunch of third tier players. If you think this is anything even remotely close to the best that the United States has to offer....you're mistaken. And to be fair, the same can be said for Serbia and Montenegro with Peja, Vlade, Darko, Rebraca and Jaric all being out.


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> *The NBA is the best league in the world with the best players. Whoever wins that league is naturally the world champions of club basketball.*


Yeah right. :laugh: 

Tell that to Puerto Rico. :yes: 


Its BS to call the nba champs the world champs. Ok so Pistons won the nba champion. did they beat germany, italy, serbia, lithuania, spain, (and hundreds of other countries)???? NO!

Unless they do that they SHOULDN'T be called World champs. They play in US and thats it. Just call them nba champs.


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## lubomir42 (Aug 2, 2004)

Pistons are the NBA champions but we can't say world champion because they didn't play a game against the Euroligue champion.

Play before and then we coul say world champion.*


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lubomir42</b>!
> 
> Play before and then we coul say world champion.*


Exactly. I know that if you put shaq, kg, duncan and other nba superstars that they would beat anyone but unless I see it and it's official you CANNOT say that the nba champs are World Champs. It's wrong.


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## lubomir42 (Aug 2, 2004)

INTERNATIONAL RULES :yes: :no: :yes: 

still world champion ?


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## Torim (Jun 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>AtomGreen</b>!
> 
> 
> You mean the current team? I don't know who you're talking about with that 95% crap but there was a LOT of talk, in America, on ESPN, on Fox Sports, in the papers, all over the place about how this team is vulnerable as hell with no inside game outside of Duncan, no perimeter scorers anywhere in the lineup and all the youngsters that the USA basketball association had to settle for.
> ...


Yes I am talking about the current team. Can't find the poll but over 90% thought Team USA would win the gold medal. (Pre-Cologne tournament). And even after the Italy debacle most online pages (CNNSI and ESPN) had them as sure lock, like *this* glorious article.

The point is not that this is the 2nd or 3rd best they have to offer, the point is that they are playing horrible despite other predictions and the only thing I hear are cheap excuses and pathetic whining. (International rules? LOL? Do they kick the ball with their *** like an ancient Mayan game, it's 99% the same rules).

EDIT: Those rules where in effect for every other Team USA game btw, like those 100wins they assembled over time.

Since I am not into College Basketball I got a question: Does the NCAA play with FIBA rules?
If they do what is all that whining about, except for 2 players everyone on the roster has more than enough experience with those rules.


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## AtomGreen (Jun 7, 2004)

No USA college basketball does not play with FIBA rules, though they do have players being fouled at after just 5 fouls.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Torim</b> like *this* glorious article.


That's the article of the year.

Pulitzer prize, please :worship: 

.......

.......

.......

.......

OMG :krazy: :wait:


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## AtomGreen (Jun 7, 2004)

What about this article? Peter May - ESPN 

Whether some of you non-Americans believe it or not, there has been A LOT of press about how difficult these Olympic games were going to be for this American squad. Knowledgable basketball fans realize that the world is getting better and that this is far from America's best collection of talent.


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Scipio</b>!
> In football they actually do play for the title of best football club in the world.


Do they? Are teams like Boca Juniors invited to this? Heck, is even the MLS team invited? Do any of the club teams take the FIFA club championships seriously. Heck, has that tourny even gotten off the ground yet?



> I don't think we can ever explain this thing to some americans that you cannot be world champion unless you have played a tournament with the other national winners. And that's what Detroit is...a NATIONAL champ. I don't think anyone here doesn't believe that Detroit wouldn't win if such tournament would be held but as long it's not, Detroit is NBA champ. Nothing more, nothing less.


Detroit is not a national champ (heck, Detroit hasn't played the winner of the NBDL, so how can they even be the national champ if we use some of the logic around here). They are the NBA champ. The NBA is by a wide margin the best league in the world. Hence they are the world champ.



> Serbia and Montenegro is the World Champion. In club level you cannot claim that title to any team despite the fact that your league is the best in the world. Simple as that.


Sure you can. Simple as that.


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah right. :laugh:
> ...


If the Pistons played the best Puerto Rican club team, I bet Vegas would give you 5,000-1 odds on the game, if Detroit had any reason to play like the game meant something. That team wouldn't have Arroyo, the main guy who lit up the US yesterday. Remember, he plays for the Jazz, in the best league in the world. Is it just some amazing concidence that the best players for most of the Olympic teams play in the NBA?



> Its BS to call the nba champs the world champs. Ok so Pistons won the nba champion. did they beat germany, italy, serbia, lithuania, spain, (and hundreds of other countries)???? NO!


Why do people keep comparing club teams and national teams?


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lubomir42</b>!
> Pistons are the NBA champions but we can't say world champion because they didn't play a game against the Euroligue champion.
> 
> Play before and then we coul say world champion.*


Yeah, Lennonx Lewis wasn't the world champ in boxing because he didn't beat some scrub who was the heavyweight champion of a Luxembourg boxing association......


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nate505</b>!
> 
> If the Pistons played the best Puerto Rican club team, I bet Vegas would give you 5,000-1 odds on the game, if Detroit had any reason to play like the game meant something. That team wouldn't have Arroyo, the main guy who lit up the US yesterday. Remember, he plays for the Jazz, in the best league in the world. Is it just some amazing concidence that the best players for most of the Olympic teams play in the NBA?
> 
> ...


Good. So nobody in here say anymore that detroit is the world champs cause they're a single team not the National team. Only the national team could be called the world champs.


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DaUnbreakableKinG</b>!
> Only the national team could be called the world champs.


Since when? Why isn't the best club team in the world not a world champ? Because they don't beat a second rate Euro league club champ?


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

> Why isn't the best club team in the world not a world champ


this is semantics really... I agree the pistons are the best club team in the world, of course. but at least to me a world champion means in a team game always means a national team, not a club team. calling pistons the world champions just sounds wrong.

in football they have a match every year in tokio, in which the champions league winner plays the winner of the copa libertadores (south american club champion). the winner of this match is called world club champion or something like that. 

sepp blatter's world club championship tournament in football was just a horrible idea, the top players already play too much.


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## Azamad Bagatov (Jul 15, 2004)

I have no problem with this poll.

I mean, what do you expect from a population who elected Bush as their President ? What do you expect from a country who has _"serious politicians"_ like Jesse "The Body" Ventura and Arnold "The Terminator"" Schwarzenegger as Governours ? What do you expect from a population that has 34 % of overweight people, who are not even able to care for their own health ?

I mean this poll only confirms how _"weird"_ this country is.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nate505</b>
> Because they don't beat a second rate Euro league club champ?


y e s


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## MightyReds2020 (Jul 19, 2002)

What I found throughout this thread:

Many Americans valued club-level success more than country-level success. No disrespect but most Americans know more about the club-level sports, like NBA, NFL, NHL, etc than country-level events, like world championship of any kind.


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## burnet (May 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Azamad Bagatov</b>!
> I have no problem with this poll.
> 
> I mean, what do you expect from a population who elected Bush as their President ? What do you expect from a country who has _"serious politicians"_ like Jesse "The Body" Ventura and Arnold "The Terminator"" Schwarzenegger as Governours ? What do you expect from a population that has 34 % of overweight people, who are not even able to care for their own health ?
> ...


:no: The united states live a democracy, remember Who invented the basketball, and they also created this site.


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Azamad Bagatov</b>!
> 
> 
> I mean this poll only confirms how _"weird"_ this country is.


Weird or not, this is the best country in the whole WORLD. Best at everything. (maybe not football(soccer) ) but at everything else. 

Also add me to your TD club.


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>burnet</b>!
> they also created this site.


:clap: :clap: :clap:


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## guilherme.rcf (Mar 4, 2003)

The NBA champion is the nba champion. nothing else.

You guys think that the NBA champions are unbeatble. But you forget that the Pistons have lost more than 25 games in the season. 

Three days ago if somebody had said to you that Puerto Rico could beat the USA team you would have laugh at him.

Anything can happens in a game.


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## JazzMan (Feb 26, 2003)

People are arguing 2 different things here.

Yes, Detroit are PROBABLY the best club team in the world right now. Feel free to call them the best CLUB team in the world. But that is not the same thing as World Champions.

Most of us Europeans are not debating that Detroit are probably the best club team in the world. We are simply arguing that you cannot be OFFICAL World Champions without some sort of World Competition being played. 

The NATIONAL Basketball association is only open to teams from America and Toronto. Detroit have proved that they are the best of those teams. They can prove nothing more because they don't play against anyone else.

What if the Euroleague continues to get better, and (unlikely I know) actually becomes better than the NBA. WOuld you still call your National champions "World CHampions"?


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>italianBBlover</b>!
> 
> 
> y e s


Fair enough. I disagree. I would agree if the best Russian/Italian/Argentine/Puerto Rican players played in those leagues, but they don't. They play in the NBA.


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JazzMan</b>!
> What if the Euroleague continues to get better, and (unlikely I know) actually becomes better than the NBA. WOuld you still call your National champions "World CHampions"?


No. Then it would be like soccer, where there are multiple leagues of roughly the same quality. But the only way for that to happen is for the best Euro players to stay there and play, or for them to have enough money to lure the best players of any nationality over to those leagues. 

On that same note, if the ABA still existed and got better players I wouldn't call the NBA champ the world champs.


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>guilherme.rcf</b>!
> The NBA champion is the nba champion. nothing else.
> 
> You guys think that the NBA champions are unbeatble. But you forget that the Pistons have lost more than 25 games in the season.


Yeah, to NBA teams. Not to teams that couldn't carry an NBA team's jockstrap. 

BTW, has any Euro league player (or international player in general) ever refused to go to the NBA when they got drafted by an NBA team? If they haven't (and I can't think of one at this moment), why not? 



> Three days ago if somebody had said to you that Puerto Rico could beat the USA team you would have laugh at him.
> 
> Anything can happens in a game.


3 days ago? Who would have laughed? Especially to the team that got thumped by Italy.....this USA team is an absolute disgrace to the word team (so far anyway). There is no team here, just a bunch of egos and guys who couldn't hit a jump shot if their life depended on it.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

> BTW, has any Euro league player (or international player in general) ever refused to go to the NBA when they got drafted by an NBA team? If they haven't (and I can't think of one at this moment), why not?


bodiroga...


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>el_Diablo</b>!
> 
> 
> bodiroga...


Thanks. Have heard the name before (probably because he played on the same team Raul Lopez did in Europe). He is, however, the exception to the rule....


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## Torim (Jun 22, 2004)

The European Soccer comparison is kind of iffy since probably most of the Italians/English/Spanish think that their league is the best in the world aswell, yet a team from Portugal won the Championsleague (facing a team from France).

Sure they sold all of their top players and their coach by now, but Soccer like Basketball is a team game and therefore pure individual talent is not as important as how well you play _together_.
And nobody doubts that the best talent plays in the NBA.


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## Scipio (Feb 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Nate505</b>!
> 
> Detroit is not a national champ (heck, Detroit hasn't played the winner of the NBDL, so how can they even be the national champ if we use some of the logic around here). They are the NBA champ. The NBA is by a wide margin the best league in the world. Hence they are the world champ.


Nate, you and non-US members will never see eye to eye on this matter. Here are the two facts I believe every non-US would agree:

1. NBA is the best league and has the best players all over the world and everyone wants to play there.

2. Pistons are the champions and most likely would win every Euro-team

But as long as there is no tournament arranged where the winners of the best leagues meet you cannot claim yourself a title "World Champion". 

This is a more cultural difference. National teams and tournaments mean much more to europeans than to americans. I guess your country is so big, young and splitted into 50 states so you don't have the same passion for international competitions and value your professional leagues more which are the best in the world. Or i might be way off here...


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Do you think that the NBA should have the Pistons play the gold medal winner at the Olympics ( if its USA then have them play the silver medal team). In the years that the Olympics arent on they should have the world championship winner play the NBA Champs.

Side note: Do you think every division winner in the NBA could beat the Gold Medal winner


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## Virtuoso (Jan 26, 2004)

> Side note: Do you think every division winner in the NBA could beat the Gold Medal winner


Lakers? Pistons? Timberwolves? Pacers?

Yes. 

Out of those teams the T'Wolves might be the best fit for a FIBA style game, they'd _kill_ these teams.


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## AtomGreen (Jun 7, 2004)

As long as the best player(s) from all of these top international teams (Nowitzki, Ginobili, Nocioni, Delfino, Yao, Okur, Kirilenko, Peja, Radmanovic, Arroyo, Gasol, etc...) are members of the N-B-A, that is more than enough proof that the N-B-A is the single most elite league IN THE WORLD. And using logic as your basis of understanding, (when there's an absence of a "world basketball club championship") the best team in the best league in the world ought to be considered, or at least have the right to consider themselves "world champions". 

I can't for the life of me, think of another league champion that would be more deserving of that title than the NBA Champion. If anyone out there can think of one, please enlighten me.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>AtomGreen</b>!
> As long as the best player(s) from all of these top international teams (Nowitzki, Ginobili, Nocioni, Delfino, Yao, Okur, Kirilenko, Peja, Radmanovic, Arroyo, Gasol, etc...) are members of the N-B-A, that is more than enough proof that the N-B-A is the single most elite league IN THE WORLD. And using logic as your basis of understanding, (when there's an absence of a "world basketball club championship") the best team in the best league in the world ought to be considered, or at least have the right to consider themselves "world champions".
> 
> I can't for the life of me, think of another league champion that would be more deserving of that title than the NBA Champion. If anyone out there can think of one, please enlighten me.


Make a game, or a tournament, with these 2 teams.

Then we will know the world champion.


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## Scipio (Feb 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> Do you think that the NBA should have the Pistons play the gold medal winner at the Olympics


No. Don't mix national teams and league winners. As Italianbballlover said, Arrange a tournament where at least winner of the euroleague is in. Then you can claim yourself the title "WC"

From AtomGreen
"As long as the best player(s) from all of these top international teams (Nowitzki, Ginobili, Nocioni, Delfino, Yao, Okur, Kirilenko, Peja, Radmanovic, Arroyo, Gasol, etc...) are members of the N-B-A, that is more than enough proof that the N-B-A is the single most elite league IN THE WORLD. And using logic as your basis of understanding, (when there's an absence of a "world basketball club championship") the best team in the best league in the world ought to be considered, or at least have the right to consider themselves "world champions"."

It is the best league in the world but no...I don't nor should they be considered world champs because it's just national league. Even with the best players and the best teams and the absence of a world basketball club championship. Arrange that tournament and then you are considered "world champions". 

Two different opinions and I don't see taht we would see eye to eye on this so just let it go. I know I will after this post.


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## AtomGreen (Jun 7, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>italianBBlover</b>!
> 
> 
> Make a game, or a tournament, with these 2 teams.
> ...


I wish I could man, but I can't. I'm just a squirrel trying to get a nut.

I've actually always wanted David Stern to create a mid-season tournament that put the final two teams of the NBA playoffs (the Lakers and the Pistons) versus the final two teams of the European finals whoever that would be.


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Scipio</b>!
> 
> 
> No. Don't mix national teams and league winners. As Italianbballlover said, Arrange a tournament where at least winner of the euroleague is in. Then you can claim yourself the title "WC"
> ...


So the problem is it's a national league? So if we moved the Hawks to Berlin, the Grizzlies to Buenos Aires, the Nuggets to Johannesburg, the Warriors to Sydney, and the Bucks to Bejing, would then the NBA champs be the world champs, as they now have franchises in the major continents throughout the world?

And this tournament would be odd. Why would NBA players get up to play far lesser calibar opponents than they played to win the NBA (and IMO the World) title?


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## dominikan_balla1 (Aug 4, 2004)

are you guys ****in krazy the pistons will beat absolutly anybody in the world ....and they might lose one game after their 250th game...man the pistons are the "WORL CHAMPIONS"


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

I think the problem here is that pple just assume that NBA is "so much better than the Euroleague". That may very well be true, but it's definitely not set in stone. At the way US basketball is going NBA is losing its prestige real FAST. Just look how vulnerable team USA is looking right now.. at this rate, the world may eventually catch up.

As for Europeans coming in to the NBA, as long as the money is here, they will keep coming. Who the heck would turn down a chance to play for millions of dollars a season? Even if NBA is the WORST league in the world they'd still come here for the money. Same reason players would go to a worse team for more money.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>dominikan_balla1</b>!
> are you guys ****in krazy the pistons will beat absolutly anybody in the world ....and they might lose one game after their 250th game...man the pistons are the "WORL CHAMPIONS"


Ok, maybe they are the "WORL CHAMPIONS", but not "World champions" :laugh: 

Seriousely: the winner of every best league of the world (basketball, soccer, ice-hockey etc) CAN'T call himself "world champions". 

Make a tournament with the 5 best team of every continent (NBA winner, Euroleaguer winner etc) and the winner will be the world champion.

If you are so strong you will not scare of play a game with these "inferiors".

Stop


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>c_dog</b>!
> I think the problem here is that pple just assume that NBA is "so much better than the Euroleague". That may very well be true, but it's definitely not set in stone. At the way US basketball is going NBA is losing its prestige real FAST. Just look how vulnerable team USA is looking right now.. at this rate, the world may eventually catch up.
> 
> As for Europeans coming in to the NBA, as long as the money is here, they will keep coming. Who the heck would turn down a chance to play for millions of dollars a season? Even if NBA is the WORST league in the world they'd still come here for the money. Same reason players would go to a worse team for more money.


My goodness ... finally somebody opening his eyes


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## AtomGreen (Jun 7, 2004)

Some of the etrangers here are failing to understand one thing about American basketball...how it is NO different now than it was when the original Dream Team played and utterly dominated Olympic play.

USA's best players today (Shaq, Allen, Carter, McGrady, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Kidd) would still completely dominate international play...if they were playing, they just aren't. If Jordan, Ewing, Magic, Stockton, Malone, Pippen, and Bird had decided not to play back then and the USA basketball association had to settle for many third and fourth options for their roster...trust me, they TOO would've had a hard time coming away with an Olympic medal. 

Don't get me wrong, the world has definitely improved its basketball prowress, but to even insinuate that ANY nation outside of the United States could even hang with the above mentioned USA mega-star team, thus having "caught up" with American basketball, is not only misinformed it's pure insanity. 

And regarding the club level argument...who would most people consider to be Europe's best team? The one that would compete against Detroit for this mythical "World Championship". I'd like to see who this comparable club team has on their roster. I really hope it's not the team that beat Skipper Bologna who I believe had Maceo Baston as one of their top big man. I'm sorry but that matchup would not fly far. Detroit's bench would compete well with that team. No exaggeration.


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## burnet (May 27, 2003)

Honestly, Detroit is the champion of the world. 


Final Four Individual Stats Leaders 

Ranking MVP
1	PARKER, ANTHONY	Maccabi
2	BROWN, MARCUS	CSKA Moscow
3	THORNTON, MARVIS	Montepaschi
4	JASIKEVICIUS, SARUNAS	Maccabi	
5	BURSTEIN, TAL	Maccabi
6	BASTON, MACEO	Maccabi	
7	TURKCAN, MIRSAD	CSKA Moscow
8	VUJANIC, MILOS	Skipper	
9	STEFANOV, VRBICA	Montepaschi
10	KAKIOUZIS, MIKALIS
11	DELFINO, CARLOS	Skipper
12	ALEXANDER, VICTOR CSKA Moscow
13	BLUTHENTHAL, DAVID	Maccabi	
14	ANDERSEN, DAVID	Montepaschi
15	VUJCIC, NIKOLA	Maccabi	


I would not be at 3 AM to attend the euroleague.


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## Virtuoso (Jan 26, 2004)

> I'd like to see who this comparable club team has on their roster. I really hope it's not the team that beat Skipper Bologna who I believe had Maceo Baston as one of their top big man. I'm sorry but that matchup would not fly far. Detroit's bench would compete well with that team. No exaggeration.


I recall Maceo Baston saying noone "not even the Lakers or Spurs" could have beaten Maccabi in that final game (because of the crowd).


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## Flaming Homer (Jan 27, 2003)

I think the problem for most Europeans is the fact, that for us a World Champion has to be a National-Team and not a Club. 
Also, it doesn't matter that the NBA is by far the best national league in the world, if other Clubs from Europe have no chance to compete against them. How can you say that the NBA-Champion is the World-Champion, when nobody else than NBA-Clubs can compete? You can't 'qualify' for the NBA from Europe nor can Real Madrid play a season in Italy to become the Italian Soccer-Champion. It's because it's *NATIONAL*.
You could say that anyway European Clubs would stand no chance against NBA-Teams, and you're probably right. But who knows? Anything can happen in sports, who would've thought that Detroit would destroy the Lakers, Greece (a heavily underdog) would become the European-Champion in soccer (and beat France on their way!), that the Jazz barely missed the playoffs,...You have to prove that you're the WORLD-(Club) Champion, and that means that you have to give other Countries (=Clubs) at least a chance to compete (like in the real World-Champion Tournament).


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Flaming Homer</b>!
> I think the problem for most Europeans is the fact, that for us a World Champion has to be a National-Team and not a Club.
> Also, it doesn't matter that the NBA is by far the best national league in the world, if other Clubs from Europe have no chance to compete against them. How can you say that the NBA-Champion is the World-Champion, when nobody else than NBA-Clubs can compete? You can't 'qualify' for the NBA from Europe nor can Real Madrid play a season in Italy to become the Italian Soccer-Champion. It's because it's *NATIONAL*.
> You could say that anyway European Clubs would stand no chance against NBA-Teams, and you're probably right. But who knows? Anything can happen in sports, who would've thought that Detroit would destroy the Lakers, Greece (a heavily underdog) would become the European-Champion in soccer (and beat France on their way!), that the Jazz barely missed the playoffs,...You have to prove that you're the WORLD-(Club) Champion, and that means that you have to give other Countries (=Clubs) at least a chance to compete (like in the real World-Champion Tournament).


The same way I feel man. 

:greatjob: :greatjob: :greatjob:


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## JazzMan (Feb 26, 2003)

I'm going to have one last go at trying to explain this...

TO be a champion, there has to be a championship. There is no World Club championship for basketball. Therefore there is no OFFICIAL World (Club) Champion. It really is that simple.

Lennox Lewis was the best boxer in the world, but he had to fight people to become World Champion.

Detroit (using logic only) are the best club team in the world, as they won the championship of the best league in the world. They cannot be champions over teams they did not compete against. It is completely and utterly illogical.

And just to mix it up a bit, the current USA team is (on paper) better than any NBA franchise. Easily. And this team has lost to Italy (no NBA players) and Puerto Rico (one average NBA player and one NBA scrub) and scraped past Greece (no NBA players) and Germany (one NBA player). 

Now I know that this is not the strongest USA team possible, but we are not discussing international bball here. The fact is, that a team BETTER than any NBA franchise has struggled against FAIRLY MEDIOCRE teams from the rest of the world. It is not then feasible, that one of the better Euroleague teams could beat an NBA team?

I would say yes, although unlikely.

I think recent international competition should be forcing Americans to reconsider their "unbeatable" status. You can be as confident as you like about a result, but you have to back it up with the right result.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Plus: in some McDonald tournament of the past, the NBA champions often won of only few points or even with an overtime (like VS Scavolini Pesaro in 1987).

If I'm right Maccabi won a couple of times VS the NBA champion (1977 ?).

What say JazzMan is *clear and simple* 

Gretz


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>AtomGreen</b>USA's best players today (Shaq, Allen, Carter, McGrady, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett, Kidd) would still completely dominate international play...


I'm not so sure: Carter,Garnett,Kidd won often barely at Sidney 2000, and guys like Shaq and McGrady maybe will have problems with the international rules (fouls, traveling etc).

And however: if you are really so strong, show it on a parquet, not with words. *clear and simple*, again.


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>c_dog</b>!
> I think the problem here is that pple just assume that NBA is "so much better than the Euroleague". That may very well be true, but it's definitely not set in stone. At the way US basketball is going NBA is losing its prestige real FAST. Just look how vulnerable team USA is looking right now.. at this rate, the world may eventually catch up.


Apples and oranges. The Olympics has no bearing on whether the Euroleagues are comparable with the NBA. If not for the sole reason that the star players on most of the Olympic teams are NBA players.



> As for Europeans coming in to the NBA, as long as the money is here, they will keep coming. Who the heck would turn down a chance to play for millions of dollars a season? Even if NBA is the WORST league in the world they'd still come here for the money. Same reason players would go to a worse team for more money.


That's illogical. One of the big reasons the NBA is the best league in the world is the money, and one of the reasons the league is profitable is because it is the best basketball league in the world. The NBA would never be the best league in the world and still pay top dollar. But even if that absurd scenario were to happen, it would quickly become the best league again, because all the best players would be coming over here to play for the money. The best pro players for any sport tend to play in the professional league that pays the best.


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JazzMan</b>!
> I'm going to have one last go at trying to explain this...
> 
> TO be a champion, there has to be a championship. There is no World Club championship for basketball. Therefore there is no OFFICIAL World (Club) Champion. It really is that simple.


That's where we disagree. I don't think having the formality of the tournament is important, especially when the NBA is open to anyone who is good enough to make it. If other pro leagues actually make strides and could field competitive rosters against NBA teams, sure, then it would be necessary.



> Lennox Lewis was the best boxer in the world, but he had to fight people to become World Champion.


He didn't have to fight everyone. He didn't have to beat the Lithuanian heavyweight champion. 



> Detroit (using logic only) are the best club team in the world, as they won the championship of the best league in the world. They cannot be champions over teams they did not compete against. It is completely and utterly illogical.


So they are the best club team in the world by your own admission, but not World Champions because they didn't play the champ of the South African league? 



> And just to mix it up a bit, the current USA team is (on paper) better than any NBA franchise. Easily. And this team has lost to Italy (no NBA players) and Puerto Rico (one average NBA player and one NBA scrub) and scraped past Greece (no NBA players) and Germany (one NBA player).


The current Olympic team would die in the NBA, and is the ultimate proof that talent alone does not overcome chemistry and basketball smarts. Talk about egos sufficating that team. Plus, even in the NBA, there's only one ball to go around. Teams win championships in the NBA, and every championship team has had quality role players. This team has none. 

Real Madrid would get absolutely crushed by the Pistons if they were motivated for the game (like they are in the NBA playoffs). Heck, I doubt they would win more than 15 games in an 82 game NBA season if you replaced the Hawks with them.



> The fact is, that a team BETTER than any NBA franchise has struggled against FAIRLY MEDIOCRE teams from the rest of the world. It is not then feasible, that one of the better Euroleague teams could beat an NBA team?


That's not a fact at all. I would put a lot money on the Pistons beating this group of players. They played some of the best team basketball I have seen in recent memory, and team basketball is what is destroying the current US team. 



> I think recent international competition should be forcing Americans to reconsider their "unbeatable" status. You can be as confident as you like about a result, but you have to back it up with the right result.


Their unbeatable status in international play, sure. But it doesn't do anything to prove that the Euro leagues are anywhere near comparable with the NBA, especially since with very few exceptions, the best Euro league players go to play in the NBA.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

You are so donkey/dolt , guys  

If the Pistons are really the best of the world/world champions, they must *demonstrate* it.
Or maybe they fears those inferiors of Siena, Barcelona, Pesaro or Madrid ?

We can *assume* that the Pistons are the best club team of the world, but they aren't it *officially* until they don't defeat i.e. the Euroleague champion.

It's so hard to understand ?

Duncan, Iverson, Odom, Marbury, James, Anthony, Marion ... should EAT the other NT teams ... and instead ...


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## JazzMan (Feb 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nate505</b>!
> 
> That's where we disagree. I don't think having the formality of the tournament is important, especially when the NBA is open to anyone who is good enough to make it. If other pro leagues actually make strides and could field competitive rosters against NBA teams, sure, then it would be necessary.


I think there are teams who could put up a competitive roster. Games between european and NBA teams have not been one-sided thrashings you know.



> He didn't have to fight everyone. He didn't have to beat the Lithuanian heavyweight champion.


No. But he had to fight the best available contender. Without fighting he would have been stripped of his title.



> So they are the best club team in the world by your own admission, but not World Champions because they didn't play the champ of the South African league?


No-one's said they have to play ALL the other champions. THey are not World CHampions because they have played no-one from outside the NBA.



> The current Olympic team would die in the NBA, and is the ultimate proof that talent alone does not overcome chemistry and basketball smarts. Talk about egos sufficating that team. Plus, even in the NBA, there's only one ball to go around. Teams win championships in the NBA, and every championship team has had quality role players. This team has none.


European teams have the team concept down pretty well. If their club teams can nail it as well as their international teams, who's to say Maccabi beating Detroit is completely impossible?




> Their unbeatable status in international play, sure. But it doesn't do anything to prove that the Euro leagues are anywhere near comparable with the NBA, especially since with very few exceptions, the best Euro league players go to play in the NBA.


Not all the best Euro players go to the NBA. There's more to Europe than Dirk, Pau, Stojakovic and Kirilenko. I don't think many Americans pay much attention to the euro leagues (I don't either by the way) because they haven't heard of the players. That doesn't mean they're as far behind as you think.

If it does nothing to prove that the leagues are comparable, why not prove it for real and play a game to decide the world champions? That is the only way it can be proved. Anything else is just speculation.

Anyway, as a fellow Jazz fan, I'm not going to bash you too much. I can see neither of us are likely to budge on this!


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## Scipio (Feb 18, 2004)

I just can't let this go...



> Originally posted by <b>Nate505</b>!
> 
> That's where we disagree. I don't think having the formality of the tournament is important, especially when the NBA is open to anyone who is good enough to make it. If other pro leagues actually make strides and could field competitive rosters against NBA teams, sure, then it would be necessary.


This is basically American way of thinking vs. world. LEt's assume that Italy Serie A would have the best football players in the world (Will never happen  ) . I have no doubt that Italians would never call the winner "world champion" even though the best players are there. Or do you Italianbblover disagree?



> Originally posted by <b>Nate505</b>!
> He didn't have to fight everyone. He didn't have to beat the Lithuanian heavyweight champion.
> 
> So they are the best club team in the
> ...


You missed the point on purpose I guess. I wouldn't expect Pistons to play against finish champion. In boxing there are rankings. In basketball we have two big leagues.




> Originally posted by <b>Nate505</b>!
> Real Madrid would get absolutely crushed by the Pistons if they were motivated for the game (like they are in the NBA playoffs). Heck, I doubt they would win more than 15 games in an 82 game NBA season if you replaced the Hawks with them.


Again..that's not the point. 



> Originally posted by <b>Nate505</b>!
> But it doesn't do anything to prove that the Euro leagues are anywhere near comparable with the NBA, especially since with very few exceptions, the best Euro league players go to play in the NBA.


Agreed...but it still doen't make Pistons World champions. You at least would have give Maccabi a chance to play against Pistons before claiming the title. Even if it could be a blowout. 

Shouldn't be too hard to arrange in pre-season since NBA teams are already playing in Europe. Just make it an official WC final match.

Before that PIstons is NBA champ. And a good one.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JazzMan</b>
> Not all the best Euro players go to the NBA. There's more to Europe than Dirk, Pau, Stojakovic and Kirilenko. I don't think many Americans pay much attention to the euro leagues (I don't either by the way) because they haven't heard of the players. That doesn't mean they're as far behind as you think.


That's a good point, Jazzman.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Scipio</b>!
> 
> This is basically American way of thinking vs. world. LEt's assume that Italy Serie A would have the best football players in the world (Will never happen  ) . I have no doubt that Italians would never call the winner "world champion" even though the best players are there. Or do you Italianbballover disagree?


I absolutely agree :yes: , even if I hate soccer :laugh: :grinning: 


The italian or spanish or english champion would never call him "world champion" ... it's a joke !


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

> even if I hate soccer


you freak.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>el_Diablo</b>!
> 
> 
> you freak.


In Italy there are 26 milions soccer lover on 58 milions of inhabitants ... so you can see that not all the italians love soccer :yes: 

Basketball and ice-hockey rulez :grinning:


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## AtomGreen (Jun 7, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>JazzMan</b>!Detroit (using logic only) are the best club team in the world, as they won the championship of the best league in the world. They cannot be champions over teams they did not compete against. It is completely and utterly illogical..


No what's completely and utterly illogical is to imply that just because a team hasn't played anyone from an inferior league that one can't logically assume that they are a better team. 

So going by that "logic" the NBA champion shouldn't even say that they are the American Champion because they have yet to play any of the NBDL teams. Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. What a very intuitive thought!? 

And I'm sorry, a team with Maceo Baston, a NBA castoff/wannabe, as their top big man is not going to come close to beating a consumate championship TEAM like the Detroit Pistons. Maccabi might equal Detroit's chemistry and desire, but they would be severely lacking in strength, size, athleticism, speed and talent...and with chemistry and desire being equal, the latter attributes overwhelmingly in Detroit's favor would cause the game to be a blowout. 

Detroit Pistons 105
Macaabi Tel Aviv 75

:yes:


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Comparing the level of NBA basketball to Euroleague is like comparing the NHL to the Swedish elite league. Except for those that would be deathly homesick, every player wants to play in the #1 league. For these sports, the highest level of competition is in North America. Soccer is such a widely played sport. There are top-level teams and leagues through South America and Europe. Thus winning in any league does not make you a World Champ. 

However I would call the Pistions World CLUB Champions. Until the Euroleague actually competes with the NBA for talent, and pays top wages, they are a "B" league.


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## AtomGreen (Jun 7, 2004)

First of all, isn't the NBA, with all the international players, already an "international" league?

Secondly, remember folks, only TWO of America's top 15 players are on this current USA team. What if you took the top two or three players, let alone 13 of the top 15, off all of these national teams playing in the Olympics? 

Take Dirk off Germany...how do think they would they do? They're already a one man team.

Take Delfino, Noccioni, Ginobili and Scola off Argentina.
Kirilenko off Russia.

Gasol off Spain.

Arroyo off Puerto Rico.

Take Okur and and Hedo off Turkey.

Take Peja, Vlade, Rebracca and Radmanovic off Serbia and how would they do? Oh yeah, we already know, they'd struggle...badly.

Look at Memhet Okur, he was an abolute stud for Turkey and he could barely even crack Detroit's playoff rotation because of the talent in front of him. Manu Ginobili doesn't even start for San Antonio. Vladamir Radmanovic is a mere role player for Seattle. Dirk is considered a one dimensional offense-only player in the NBA. 

Just more evidence that the NBA is and always will be the best and most talented league in the WORLD. Whether the NBA champ considers themselves World Champions or not is just semantics, that doesn't change the fact that winning the NBA title makes them the #1 ranked club team in the world though.


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## EuroScout (Jun 4, 2003)

plz in europe, football(soccer) is more international than NBA...

the TOP 50 best players in the World, play all in europe (cuz there is more money$ like NBA in basketball)
Zidane, beckahm, ronaldhino,figo, Vanistelroy, veron, okocha,Shevchenko,Nedved, Raul, Khan, Totti....

so ur conclusion, is that every year the championleague's champion would beat the south america's champion....?!!!!

hey no u don't win games with words or names, even if the championleague's champion have often, by far, the better players they don't win everytimes.

so if there is not a match up between NBA champ and the euroleague champ, u can't say Piston is the world champion, that's simple.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

About soccer: every year, in december, there is the "Intercontinental Cup" in Tokyo, where the last winner of the european Champions League plays VS the south American Cup winner.

The winner of the Intercontinental Cup is officially the "World club champion".

*It's so hard to make the same thing with basketball too ?*

Or are you so scared ?  :laugh:


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

It has nothing to do with being scared and everything to do with it being a waste of time. In soccer, both clubs have something to gain from a South America vs European game. In basektball only the European club would have anything to gain because the NBA champions are already recognized as the world champions.

In other sports like soccer, there are leagues of comparible talent around the world.

Basketball doesn't have this. There is no comparison between the NBA and Euroleague. They are not on the same level. The NBA Champions don't have to prove themselves against the European Champions anymore than they do against the NCAA Champions.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>
> 
> Basketball doesn't have this. There is no comparison between the NBA and Euroleague. They are not on the same level. The NBA Champions don't have to prove themselves against the European Champions anymore than they do against the NCAA Champions.


Ah, so ? and well why play Lakers VS Hawks ? or Pistons VS Wizards ?

Or why play U.S.A. VS Puerto Rico ? 

What the hell is the thing that 2 teams must be at the same level (?) to do a game ? 


Guys, guys ...


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## AtomGreen (Jun 7, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>italianBBlover</b>!
> 
> 
> Ah, so ? and well why play Lakers VS Hawks ? or Pistons VS Wizards ?
> ...


Because the Hawks and Lakers and Pistons and Wizards are all in the SAME LEAGUE. 

Now listen, I would LOVE for Maccabi to square off against the Pistons because I think it would shut a lot of you folks up once and for all regarding this World Champion thing...but the fact of the matter remains that there really is no more benefit for the NBA to have games against FIBA teams that it would to play against NBDL teams.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Pesaro, Siena or Barcelona would *eat* the Haws or the Wizards ...

Remember: at 1990 McDonald open Scavolini Pesaro forced the New Jork Knicks at o.t. (119-115 for the Knicks) while at 1999 McDonald ... 

"*Varese Roosters scare the boots off Spurs*"

Mark Woods in Milan 

_Stunning. Unexpected. But in the end not quite enough. Varese Roosters gave the NBA Champion San Antonio Spurs one hell of a fright, leading for three quarters of their McDonald's Championship semi-final match before succumbing to the absolute power of Tim Duncan and a 96-86 scoreline. No wonder there was a standing ovation at the finish and praise from Spurs coach Gregg Popovich. 

"We are very very happy to get that win. They played better than we did in every way, shape and form. Down the stretch our defense played pretty well and we just made some shots. " 

The Spurs shot badly until the final stages and the Italian backcourt of *Gianmarco Pozzecco* - hs hair dyed read for the occasion -and Andrea Meneghin were simply magnificent in the face of NBA opposition. 

And they sparked an audacious 13-2 start which even forced Popovich into a quick time out. But his men showed no sign of their Knicks-conquering form, as they trailed 41-27 late in the second period. 

Only a 7-0 Spurs run helped to bring the game back into reach for a 48-42 scoreline at the turn around. 

With the score standing at 54-46 to Varese midway through the third quarter, a telling sign was spotted on court. Robinson and Duncan exchanged the briefest of nods, fists clenched with competitive spirit. 

The move precipitated Spurs best roll of the game as they notched eight consecutive points to level matters at 54-54. 

But they could not yet grab a lea d as five quick points from recent Varese arrival Glenn Sekunda put his side into a 71-66 lead. But Spurs veterans stepped up their shooting and their defense. 

A lay in from Avery Johnson put the NBAers ahead 81-79, their first lead, with 4:36 left and that 16-3 blitz finally eradicated brave Varese's hopes of a famous win. 

Spurs centre David Robinson admitted his team were disappointed with their performance. 

"Defense is our trademark and it was awful in the first half. They were back-dooring and laying it up. When we give up lay ups, it's awful. They did a great job." 

Francesco Vescovi topped all scorers on 20 while Johnson's 18 led the Spurs who are likely to be a lot more agressive in Saturday's showdown with Vasco da Gama_"

Ehehe, did you read that name ? Iverson must remember that name :laugh: :grinning: 

So: not few times a NBA *Champion* had some problems with euroteams ... an this was 10-15 years ago ! 
So teams like Hawks or Wizards aren't a hard opponents for team like Siena or Barcelona.

But, hey ... they are in NBA, they are strong and can play with the "world" champions.

Some of you, guys, has to "sink the crest" IMO :yes:  

Friendly grettings


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## macijauskas1 (Dec 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>italianBBlover</b>!
> Pesaro, Siena or Barcelona would *eat* the Haws or the Wizards ...
> 
> Remember: at 1990 McDonald open Scavolini Pesaro forced the New Jork Knicks at o.t. (119-115 for the Knicks) while at 1999 McDonald ...
> ...


When I said that americans are ignorant ang clueless about life outside their circus-you disagreed with me


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

you've shut us all up.

the mcdonalds championship is very prestigious.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>macijauskas1</b>!
> 
> When I said that amerocans are ignorant ang clueless about life outside their circus-you disagreed with me


The are ignorant and dumb americans like there are ignorant and dumb italians or lithuanians, Macij  

We can't do generalizations.

Alkonas :grinning:


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>italianBBlover</b>!
> Pesaro, Siena or Barcelona would *eat* the Haws or the Wizards ...


No way. They would get destroyed. Most of the players on those teams would be lucky to make their training camp.



> So: not few times a NBA *Champion* had some problems with euroteams ... an this was 10-15 years ago !
> So teams like Hawks or Wizards aren't a hard opponents for team like Siena or Barcelona.
> 
> But, hey ... they are in NBA, they are strong and can play with the "world" champions.
> ...


The McDonald's Open? Who cares. It's the basketball equivalent of a meaningless tournament, like the FIFA Confederations Cup. I doubt the Spurs took that game seriously. What's to gain for them? Heck, the US has beat Brasil in friendlies before in soccer, yet I'm not insane enough to suggest they are even in their league....


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Scipio</b>!
> You missed the point on purpose I guess. I wouldn't expect Pistons to play against finish champion. In boxing there are rankings. In basketball we have two big leagues.


Two big leagues? What's the other big league other than the NBA?



> Agreed...but it still doen't make Pistons World champions. You at least would have give Maccabi a chance to play against Pistons before claiming the title. Even if it could be a blowout.


Again, this would be like Brasil playing New Zealand after they beat Germany in the World Cup. Pointless.



> Before that PIstons is NBA champ. And a good one.


Agree here. It's really a semantics thing. The Euros believe that the formality of beating the team must be done, while I don't believe that. But if that is true, then the US must also beat the best African club team, the best Asian club team, the best Australiian club team, etc. Which just gets pointless after awhile....


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

i don't really understand what's so difficult to understand about the following:

1. the NBA is the top league in the world
2. the NBA has the top players in the world
3. the top team in the NBA is the top team in the world

as simple as a+b=c


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## Ravnos (Aug 10, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Nate505</b>!
> 
> No way. They would get destroyed. Most of the players on those teams would be lucky to make their training camp.
> 
> ...


Look. ItalianBBlover just gave you an example of a game between the Spurs and a European team, and the Euros were not crushed easily. And you just say, "Oh, they probably weren't trying." Well, couldn't we turn the same excuse around and say the Italian team wasn't trying, because "What's to gain for them?"

If an actual game between an NBA team and a Euro team can't convince you, then what else WOULD convince you that some Euro teams can at least compete with some NBA teams? I mean, couldn't you just always say that the NBA team wasn't trying because they didn't gain anything? It seems you've built this ultimate defense of "They weren't trying," and it's not fair because it's not true. I ask you once again, what would it take to convince you that some Euro teams can compete with some NBA teams?


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## Azamad Bagatov (Jul 15, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> i don't really understand what's so difficult to understand about the following:
> 
> 1. the NBA is the top league in the world
> ...


That is likely but not so likely that you can officially call the NBA Champion the World Champion. That is simply arrogant towards the other basketball teams from other countries. But that's the typical american megalomania.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Azamad Bagatov</b>!
> 
> 
> That is likely but not so likely that you can officially call the NBA Champion the World Champion. That is simply arrogant towards the other basketball teams from other countries. But that's the typical american megalomania.


YEAH WATCH OUT FOR THE BAD EVIL FAT AMERICANS AND THEIR EVIL PROPAGANDA AND MEGALOMANIA!!! 

BOO!


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Ravnos</b>!
> If an actual game between an NBA team and a Euro team can't convince you, then what else WOULD convince you that some Euro teams can at least compete with some NBA teams? I mean, couldn't you just always say that the NBA team wasn't trying because they didn't gain anything? It seems you've built this ultimate defense of "They weren't trying," and it's not fair because it's not true. I ask you once again, what would it take to convince you that some Euro teams can compete with some NBA teams?


for me, it would take them creating a european league that is on par with the NBA and has everyone in the world striving to join it.

until they do that, i'm sorry, but NBA teams are simply superior.


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## gfunk (May 29, 2004)

the nba teams aren't as superior as some may think. remember, a team of duncan, marion, allen iverson, lebron, and the rest of them coached by gregg popovich and larry brown would absolutely frickin OWN the nba (including the "world champion" detriot pistons) if there was such a team in the nba. but somehow, some of the worst national teams are still able to beat this team!  i think this alone shows that the nba isn't that much better than other leagues. our 2004 olympic team would have absolutely owned the nba league, but yet teams that "wouldn't stand a chance against atlanta and clippers" are still able to blow us out. we must realize that we aren't that good, and the would is catching up and some leagues may have already caught up.

hope u understand my logic


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## Ravnos (Aug 10, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> for me, it would take them creating a european league that is on par with the NBA and has everyone in the world striving to join it.
> ...


How could we tell that a particular European league is on par with the NBA if the NBA never played games against the Euros? And I think much of the interest in joining the NBA comes from the money.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Ravnos</b>!
> 
> 
> How could we tell that a particular European league is on par with the NBA if the NBA never played games against the Euros? And I think much of the interest in joining the NBA comes from the money.


so you're actually telling me that there's a euroleague out there on par with the NBA in terms of talent?

are you *really* saying that?


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## Ravnos (Aug 10, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> so you're actually telling me that there's a euroleague out there on par with the NBA in terms of talent?
> ...


I don't think I said that anywhere. Here's what just happened in the last few posts:

You said


> for me, it would take them creating a european league that is on par with the NBA


 in order to convince you that som European teams can compete with some NBA teams.

I then said


> How could we tell that a particular European league is on par with the NBA if the NBA never plays games against the Euros?


The question still stands.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Ravnos</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think I said that anywhere. Here's what just happened in the last few posts:
> ...


because the NBA has more talented and athletic players.

it's funny, the NBA sends a makeshift team to the olympics and they struggle, and now the whole world thinks the NBA isn't the top dog anymore.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nate505</b>
> I doubt the Spurs took that game seriously


Their fault

About talent : better a guy that can shot, read the defenses, use the foot pivot *and* dunk, or better a guys that can *only* dunk ?

It would be interesting do a game between the italian best youngs ( Belinelli, Mancinelli, DaTome, Bargnani, Vitali etc) and the U.S. best youngs (LeBron, Anthony, Wade etc) ...


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> because the NBA has more talented and athletic players.
> ...


The NBA remains the top of the top, this is clear.
But it's not that "top" , or it's no more that by now.

The word "overhyped" can be right.


About the talents, look above.


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## Ravnos (Aug 10, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> because the NBA has more talented and athletic players.


And as evidenced by this year's team USA, more talented and athletic players doesn't always equal better team.

I don't think you've answered my question yet, either. I'll try to make it simpler. 

There are 2 basketball teams in the entire world: yours and mine. Whenever your basketball team plays my basketball team, your team wins by 50 points. So you get tired of wasting your time with us and say, "You guys are a waste of time, since we are obviously better than you, we are the best basketball team in the world. We'll only play with you guys once you become good enough to at least compete with us. Until then, we are the best basketball team in the world." 

Five years go by and we try to train and improve in an effort to become better. So we ask you to play us again to determine if you are truly the best basketball team in the world. But you say, "Look, we're the best basketball team in the world, of course we'll beat you. There's no point in playing this game because we're proven to be better than you."

I say, "But you said you'd play with us if we became good enough to compete with you. I think we're good enough now."

You say, "Bah! How could you be good enough to compete with us if we're the best basketball team in the world. Obviously, you're not and you can't."

Now do you see what the problem is?


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## AtomGreen (Jun 7, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Ravnos</b>!
> 
> 
> And as evidenced by this year's team USA, more talented and athletic players doesn't always equal better team.
> ...


Okay fast forward to the REAL WORLD...who exactly is asking the NBA to play THEIR team? I have yet to hear of any instances of such a proposition occuring.


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## Ravnos (Aug 10, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>AtomGreen</b>!
> 
> 
> Okay fast forward to the REAL WORLD...who exactly is asking the NBA to play THEIR team? I have yet to hear of any instances of such a proposition occuring.


This is what happens when you just read the last post without the context of the previous posts.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Ravnos</b>!
> 
> 
> And as evidenced by this year's team USA, more talented and athletic players doesn't always equal better team.


i don't know if you've noticed, but the olympic team we sent out is not a *team*. would you not consider the pistons a very cohesive unit? a *team*?



> I don't think you've answered my question yet, either. I'll try to make it simpler.
> 
> There are 2 basketball teams in the entire world: yours and mine. Whenever your basketball team plays my basketball team, your team wins by 50 points. So you get tired of wasting your time with us and say, "You guys are a waste of time, since we are obviously better than you, we are the best basketball team in the world. We'll only play with you guys once you become good enough to at least compete with us. Until then, we are the best basketball team in the world."
> 
> ...


i'm well aware that europeans have made progress in basketball. that doesn't change the fact that the NBA still has most of *your* best players, and pretty much all of our best players, now does it?

when NBA journeyman that can no longer make it in the NBA go overseas and become solid to good players, that says a lot to me.

do you honestly believe any team in europe can beat the pistons? be honest now. you've obviously watched a lot more european bball, and i'm sure you've watched the pistons. could they win?


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## Ravnos (Aug 10, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> i don't know if you've noticed, but the olympic team we sent out is not a *team*. would you not consider the pistons a very cohesive unit? a *team*?


 Yes, but you said the NBA has more athletic and talented players. I was just pointing out that that really doesn't matter.





> i'm well aware that europeans have made progress in basketball. that doesn't change the fact that the NBA still has most of *your* best players, and pretty much all of our best players, now does it?
> 
> when NBA journeyman that can no longer make it in the NBA go overseas and become solid to good players, that says a lot to me.
> 
> do you honestly believe any team in europe can beat the pistons? be honest now. you've obviously watched a lot more european bball, and i'm sure you've watched the pistons. could they win?


First of all, I'm not European and I haven't seen any European basketball games. 

Do I believe that a team in Europe can beat the Pistons? Well, it's hard to say, because I haven't seen any of the European basketball teams. What I do know is that very few expected the Pistons to defeat the Lakers. Many hoped it would happen, but very few actually expected it. What this means is that how most people think a basketball game will turn out has very little bearing on the result of the game. 

Do I believe that overall the NBA has the best teams? Yes, I do. But that doesn't mean that the winner of the European championship will never be able to defeat the NBA champion. 

My problem with some people wanting to call the NBA champion the "World Champions" is that they don't even want the NBA champ to play a game with the Euro champ or any other regional champ. They give the excuse that the NBA champ is obviously the best, and thus, would win, making the game pointless, when such an excuse is not true.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Ravnos</b>!
> Yes, but you said the NBA has more athletic and talented players. I was just pointing out that that really doesn't matter.


yes it does, because the NBA champion almost always ends up being a great *team*. they have the advantage of being a cohesive unit along with being very talented and athletic. i just don't see any european teams competing.



> Do I believe that a team in Europe can beat the Pistons? Well, it's hard to say, because I haven't seen any of the European basketball teams. What I do know is that very few expected the Pistons to defeat the Lakers. Many hoped it would happen, but very few actually expected it. What this means is that how most people think a basketball game will turn out has very little bearing on the result of the game.


both were probably the two best teams in the NBA, so that's a moot point. it's not like it was the hawks beating the lakers for the title. upsets happen in the NBA. does that mean a european team can come along and beat the NBA champs? i strongly doubt it. 



> Do I believe that overall the NBA has the best teams? Yes, I do. But that doesn't mean that the winner of the European championship will never be able to defeat the NBA champion.


in a 7 game series, i find it highly unlikely. 



> My problem with some people wanting to call the NBA champion the "World Champions" is that they don't even want the NBA champ to play a game with the Euro champ or any other regional champ. They give the excuse that the NBA champ is obviously the best, and thus, would win, making the game pointless, when such an excuse is not true.


it would be pointless, because the euro champ is the champ of a league that is a good deal inferior to the NBA. that's what it all boils down to.

by the way, i never said i don't think the euro champs can beat the NBA champs in any given game. like i said before, upsets happen. i'm strictly referring to a playoff-style 7 game series. or even a 5 game series.


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## Ravnos (Aug 10, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And as I asked before, how can we tell if a European league really is "a good deal inferior" to the NBA unless an NBA team plays the European champ? Yes, the European league probably is inferior today, but will this always be the case? We'll never be able to tell just how inferior the European league is unless inter-league games take place. And so we can't just blow off the Euro champ because we believe that they are and will continue to be inferior to us, without actually testing our belief.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

they are the NBA champions not the world champions


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Ravnos</b>!
> 
> 
> And as I asked before, how can we tell if a European league really is "a good deal inferior" to the NBA unless an NBA team plays the European champ? Yes, the European league probably is inferior today, but will this always be the case? We'll never be able to tell just how inferior the European league is unless inter-league games take place. And so we can't just blow off the Euro champ because we believe that they are and will continue to be inferior to us, without actually testing our belief.


i'm only talking about the present. can the euroleague someday surpass the NBA? sure, anything's possible. is it likely? not to me. the best european (not just euro, but foreign) players will almost always come to the NBA, and as long as that's true, i don't see any foreign leagues ever catching up to the NBA.

at least not in the near future. especially not when david stern is trying hard to turn the NBA into a world-wide, international league.


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## macijauskas1 (Dec 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SpeakerBoxxx</b>!
> they are the NBA champions not the world champions



Simly and final.


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## JazzMan (Feb 26, 2003)

"Best Team in the World" and "World Champions" are NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!

3 months ago, who thought that Detroit were the best team in the world?? No more than 100 homers. THey defied the odds to become NBA champions. However, the previous 2 finals were predictably one-sided. You could say, what was the point of the Lakers playing the Nets - it was a foregone conculsion. It doesn't matter though - they HAD TO WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP TO GET THE TITLE.

We can debate all day about the best club team in the world, and even if we all agree, it doesn't matter when considering the WORLD CHAMPIONS.

World champions BY DEFINITION are the winners of the world championship. You cannot be champions without a tournament, foregone conclusion or otherwise.

Greece recently won the European Soccer championships. Are they European champions? Yes. Are they the best team in Europe? I don't know anyone who thinks so. The best team doesn't always win.

If the Bobcats beat the Timberwolves in a game this season, will it mean the Bobcats are a better team? No. It only means that the Bobcats won that particular game. If that game happened to be the World Cup Final it would make them World CHampions - but not NECESSARILY the best team in the world.

Does anyone not understand this?


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## Scipio (Feb 18, 2004)

:yes: Hopefully you said it clear enough that also our American friends understand what you're saying


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>JazzMan</b>!
> "Best Team in the World" and  "World Champions" are NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!
> 
> 3 months ago, who thought that Detroit were the best team in the world?? No more than 100 homers. THey defied the odds to become NBA champions. However, the previous 2 finals were predictably one-sided. You could say, what was the point of the Lakers playing the Nets - it was a foregone conculsion. It doesn't matter though - they HAD TO WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP TO GET THE TITLE.
> ...


hence "7 game series".


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JazzMan</b>!
> "Best Team in the World" and "World Champions" are NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!
> 
> 3 months ago, who thought that Detroit were the best team in the world?? No more than 100 homers. THey defied the odds to become NBA champions. However, the previous 2 finals were predictably one-sided. You could say, what was the point of the Lakers playing the Nets - it was a foregone conculsion. It doesn't matter though - they HAD TO WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP TO GET THE TITLE.
> ...


Holy and clear words ...


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JazzMan</b>!
> "Best Team in the World" and "World Champions" are NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!


To you they are not. To me it is. There is no set in stone definition of World Champion. 



> 3 months ago, who thought that Detroit were the best team in the world?? No more than 100 homers. THey defied the odds to become NBA champions. However, the previous 2 finals were predictably one-sided. You could say, what was the point of the Lakers playing the Nets - it was a foregone conculsion. It doesn't matter though - they HAD TO WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP TO GET THE TITLE.


And once they won it, they became world champions. They play in the best league in the world. The physical location of the clubs is irrelevant. The league is easily the superior league in the world. 



> We can debate all day about the best club team in the world, and even if we all agree, it doesn't matter when considering the WORLD CHAMPIONS.


Again, to you it doesn't. But to me and millions of others, being the best professional team in the best professional league (by far) in the world matters quite a bit when you deicde to give one that title.



> World champions BY DEFINITION are the winners of the world championship. You cannot be champions without a tournament, foregone conclusion or otherwise.


Where is this definition? Webster's? The Oxford English dictionary? 

And why not? Is Brasil really the world champs in soccer if FIFA decided to not sanction a countries soccer association, which would thus disqualify them from the World Cup? My guess is the answer would depend on the country. If FIFA didn't sanction Barbados, I doubt people would question the validity of Brasil's world championship, just because the mighty team of Barbados didn't have a chance to qualify. But if FIFA didn't sanction Germany, for some bizarre reason, oh yeah, there would be a legitimate debate on whether Brasil really are the world champs or not.



> Greece recently won the European Soccer championships. Are they European champions? Yes. Are they the best team in Europe? I don't know anyone who thinks so. The best team doesn't always win.


The phenonom of the best team not always winning is much more so in soccer (or any low scoring opportunity sport for that matter) than in basketball. But IMO, Greece is the best team in Europe as of this moment. They won the equivalent of their playoffs. But that will probably change come WCQ, and I don't consider Greece the best team in the world, when there are other countries out in the world that are comparable with European teams that were in the Euro Cup. The NBA is different though. It's on another level than any other professional league. How is it a guy like Trajdon Langdon can't crack an awful Cavs bench in the NBA, but can average 18 points in the Italian league? Did he just dramatically improve as a player there?



> If the Bobcats beat the Timberwolves in a game this season, will it mean the Bobcats are a better team? No. It only means that the Bobcats won that particular game. If that game happened to be the World Cup Final it would make them World CHampions - but not NECESSARILY the best team in the world.


Even in the World Cup it isn't a one and done thing. There are preliminaries, which tend to limit a fluke like the above.



> Does anyone not understand this?


Are you confusing not understanding with disagreeing?


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ravnos</b>!
> 
> 
> Look. ItalianBBlover just gave you an example of a game between the Spurs and a European team, and the Euros were not crushed easily. And you just say, "Oh, they probably weren't trying." Well, couldn't we turn the same excuse around and say the Italian team wasn't trying, because "What's to gain for them?"


What's to gain for them? Probably supreme conference in beating a superior team. Who in athletics doesn't get up for a big opponent? 

But there is nothing to gain for the Spurs. Those games mean nothing to them. They are friendlies for the most part, and the only motivation they have in them is not to be disgraced by being the first team to lose to a bunch of marginal (by NBA standards) players. 



> If an actual game between an NBA team and a Euro team can't convince you, then what else WOULD convince you that some Euro teams can at least compete with some NBA teams?


Their best players staying over in those leagues convince me. Seeing one of those teams play an NBA season would convince me. Not seeing NBA scrubs (and guys who can't make the NBA) go over there and flourish would convince me. 



> I mean, couldn't you just always say that the NBA team wasn't trying because they didn't gain anything? It seems you've built this ultimate defense of "They weren't trying," and it's not fair because it's not true. I ask you once again, what would it take to convince you that some Euro teams can compete with some NBA teams?


I'd answer you again, but that would be redundant.


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Azamad Bagatov</b>!
> That is likely but not so likely that you can officially call the NBA Champion the World Champion.


What exactly would make it official? Who certifies what a world champion is anyway?



> That is simply arrogant towards the other basketball teams from other countries. But that's the typical american megalomania.


No, _this_ is typical American meglomania:


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## Scipio (Feb 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Nate505</b>!
> 
> But to me and millions of others, being the best professional team in the best professional league (by far) in the world matters quite a bit when you deicde to give one that title.


To you and millions of US citicens. To the rest of the world it doesn't. Or not even for all the members of this board who I beleive really knows something about the WORLD of sports


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## AtomGreen (Jun 7, 2004)

Euro fans please answer me this. Why does such a high number of former NBA scrubs and castoffs and guys who couldn't even get drafted go over to play in Europe and excel? I mean Maceo Baston? That guy is weak and he has no shot outside of a few feet. He hasn't changed much since his college days at Michigan. If he and guys like Charlie Bell are quote/unquote stars over in Europe, what does that say about the level of competition over there?


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## JazzMan (Feb 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>AtomGreen</b>!
> Euro fans please answer me this. Why does such a high number of former NBA scrubs and castoffs and guys who couldn't even get drafted go over to play in Europe and excel? I mean Maceo Baston? That guy is weak and he has no shot outside of a few feet. He hasn't changed much since his college days at Michigan. If he and guys like Charlie Bell are quote/unquote stars over in Europe, what does that say about the level of competition over there?


Again, we're getting off topic here.

No-one is claiming that european leagues are as good as the NBA. Some people are asserting that they may not be as far behind as everyone thinks.

But that is not really the topic we're discussing. We're trying to establish whether you can be champion of something without proving it.

Nate505, the primary meaning of the word "champion" is
"One that wins first place or first prize in a competition." - American Heritage Dictionary

Using that description, Detroit are the champions of the NBA, but are NOT world champions. You cannot be a champion based on logic or opinion. You have to actually win something.

Disagree if you wish, but you're disagreeing with a dictionary and with logic.


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## macijauskas1 (Dec 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JazzMan</b>!
> 
> 
> Again, we're getting off topic here.
> ...


Indeed. And I hope it is last post


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>AtomGreen</b>!
> Euro fans please answer me this. Why does such a high number of former NBA scrubs and castoffs and guys who couldn't even get drafted go over to play in Europe and excel? I mean Maceo Baston? That guy is weak and he has no shot outside of a few feet. He hasn't changed much since his college days at Michigan. If he and guys like Charlie Bell are quote/unquote stars over in Europe, what does that say about the level of competition over there?


Very simple: maybe for many of these guys (Edney, Parker, Evans, Bell, Langdon etc) is more congenial play the european/international BBstyle than the NBA one.


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## AtomGreen (Jun 7, 2004)

ie. the talent level is a few floors below that of the NBA.

So the NBA champion can't even say they are the champion of America because they didn't play the NBDL champ and the NCAA champ?! That brand of logic makes so little sense that's it makes me want to intellectually vomit.  

Seriously guys, if it was even debatable that the NBA and FIBA were comparable leagues as far as talent, strength, speed, size and ability then I'd completely understand your argument, but they aren't...so I don't. 

But to concede a little and to meet you guys half way, I'll just say that the Detroit Pistons are the World Greatest...club team.


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