# I want the US to lose



## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

...for several reasons.

* They're the overdog.
* Kobe.
* Koach K and the Duke thing.
* Colangelo. He's from Phoenix and he's a Republican. (So is Shishevsky.)
* Larry Brown is getting all the blame for the last loss, and Brown is a better coach than K.
* The whole NBA.com "Road to Redeption" Shinola. (What's to redeem? You lost. Happens to other people all the time.)

I don't see it happening, though.


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## ehizzy3 (Jun 12, 2006)

your reasons are horrible, and if your from america i pity you.


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## Xericx (Oct 29, 2004)

You're voting for Obama aren't you?

Go USA! National Pride trumps ALL of that crap about Kobe, Coach K, etc.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Some people are just too petty and small for this great country...Perhaps you should try another.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Has meru EVER wanted USA to win?

He's in this country but his heart is overseas 

Ed O.


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## dpc (Dec 26, 2007)

This is the only time I will root for Kobe, go USA!


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## yuyuza1 (May 24, 2006)

It doesn't really matter to me if they win, as I don't care much for the players on the US team. Spain, on the other hand...


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Diable said:


> Some people are just too petty and small for this great country...Perhaps you should try another.


Depends on whether your definition of "bigness" is tied up in love and fervor for the nation you live in, I guess. 

I'm not rooting for or against the US. Their accomplishments reflect on them, not me. If they win gold, it doesn't say anything about me. They worked hard for it, not me.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Diable said:


> Some people are just too petty and small for this great country...Perhaps you should try another.


I think the phrase you're searching for is "America: Love it or Leave It"

Not a sentiment that either Django or Coltrane would endorse, methinks.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Xericx said:


> You're voting for Obama aren't you?


I would if I could, for lack of better alternatives. I should be able to anyway, given the US's undue influence on the rest of the world.



> Go USA! National Pride trumps ALL of that crap about Kobe, Coach K, etc.


My fave quotes on Nationalism/Patriotism:

"Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race."
-Albert Einstein

"Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. "Patriotism" is its cult. 
-Erick Fromm

“If I had to choose between betraying my country and betraying my friend, I hope I should have the guts to betray my country.”
–E.M. Forster


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Sorry Meru...lame reasons

You are American I assume?


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

DaRizzle said:


> Sorry Meru...lame reasons
> 
> You are American I assume?


Assume away.

You are a Kobe fan, I assume?


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

I was just asking...I see you live in America, are you a citizen? Im not trying to be a smart-*** eace:

Im a fan of Kobe because he plays for the Lakers. Interpret that how you like :biggrin:


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## Xericx (Oct 29, 2004)

meru said:


> I would if I could, for lack of better alternatives. I should be able to anyway, given the US's undue influence on the rest of the world.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that's what I thought.


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## OntheRocks (Jun 15, 2005)

Actually I'm with Meru, if SPAIN beats them and Rudy is the cause  Go Blazers.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

meru said:


> My fave quotes on Nationalism/Patriotism:
> 
> "Nationalism is an infantile sickness. It is the measles of the human race."
> -Albert Einstein
> ...


Dude...its basketball, not war


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## 2k (Dec 30, 2005)

I really dont care either way. I have a problem finding happiness in the fact that my sperm cell cracked an egg in a land with superior basketball players. The US plays a better brand of hoops, they dont flop around like crazy, but there is a silver lining to a US silver medal so all and all I dont care.


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## RipCity9 (Jan 30, 2004)

I want my country to dominate in everything we do - if you're rooting against them because they are the favored team, what are you going to do in the near future with the Trail Blazers?


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

RipCity9 said:


> I want my country to dominate in everything we do


Congrats on the polluting and obesity!



> - if you're rooting against them because they are the favored team, what are you going to do in the near future with the Trail Blazers?


Feeling conflicted. My second favourite team will never let me down - Go Clippers!


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## TLo (Dec 27, 2006)

meru is just pissed that his country won't do jack.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Ed O said:


> Has meru EVER wanted USA to win?


I guess I didn't mind you helping out in WWII. Although you were pretty late to the party, and seem to think you won it by yourselves.



> He's in this country but his heart is overseas


It's funny: first couple of years, maybe. But after a while, the Old Country becomes as alien as this one. Everybody's got a "mobile" and they talk about "Chavs" and there are cameras on every corner. Reminds me of a story I heard on NPR (one American institution I can firmly endorse) about a guy whose parents came over from Belgium and settled in New Jersey, but always said they'd retire to Belgium. Time came, and they did move back. But then they were back again in NJ within two years. As he put it, they weren't nostalgic for Belgium, they were nostalgic for the '50s...

My kids are American. I'm training them to burn the flag right now.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

TLo said:


> meru is just pissed that his country won't do jack.


Yeah? Let's see you beat us at Cricket, tough-talker!

(Unless you're Australian, Indian, Pakistani or South African, in which case never mind.)


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## RipCity9 (Jan 30, 2004)

meru said:


> Congrats on the polluting and obesity!


Thanks - anything worth doing is worth doing right!


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

meru said:


> Yeah? Let's see you beat us at Cricket, tough-talker!
> 
> (Unless you're Australian, Indian, Pakistani or South African, in which case never mind.)


Wait'll you see the wicked American googly!


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## Nightfly (Sep 24, 2002)

I can't be alone when I say I couldn't care less about world basketball.

I'd almost rather watch summer league.


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## RoseCity (Sep 27, 2002)

The USA team is going to be pompous and arrogant in win and loss. I don't wanna see guys like Kobe, Carmelo of that ilk anymore then a few times a year against PDX.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

Ed O said:


> Has meru EVER wanted USA to win?
> 
> He's in this country but his heart is overseas
> 
> Ed O.


Actually, I think he's barely in this country as it is!

Actually, I believe Meru is Kenyan.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

meru said:


> I guess I didn't mind you helping out in WWII. Although you were pretty late to the party, and seem to think you won it by yourselves.


Amen! That's one thing I'm so sick and tired of hearing..that we (the US) won it by ourselves. Not only did we not win it by ourselves, we came in only after Russia had battled Germany for years!



> My kids are American. I'm training them to burn the flag right now.


See you at the meetings!


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## PapaG (Oct 4, 2004)

meru said:


> ...for several reasons.
> 
> * They're the overdog.
> * Kobe.
> ...


Well, that seems like a good reason to root against this great country.

Welcome to ignore.


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## PapaG (Oct 4, 2004)

Dan said:


> Amen! That's one thing I'm so sick and tired of hearing..that we (the US) won it by ourselves. Not only did we not win it by ourselves, we came in only after Russia had battled Germany for years!
> 
> 
> 
> See you at the meetings!


So unsurprised that this guy was the latest addition to the moderating "staff".


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

PapaG said:


> So unsurprised that this guy was the latest addition to the moderating "staff".


Well, of course. Dan was rated the most American-hating poster here, and that means an automatic mod postion, according to the ideological purity rules. 

barfo


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## PapaG (Oct 4, 2004)

barfo said:


> Well, of course. Dan was rated the most American-hating poster here, and that means an automatic mod postion, according to the ideological purity rules.
> 
> barfo


I only know that bylaw by the means of my supersecret ESPN conversion interrogation. I seem to still be confined.

Now give me access to a lawyer!

PapaG


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

PapaG said:


> So unsurprised that this guy was the latest addition to the moderating "staff".


wait..you're surprised because I understand history and that the US drug it's feet on intervening in WW2, and give credit to the Russians who fought the Germans tooth and nail for years before we even entered the war, and therefore battled a weakened and bloodied German army?

Or that I sarcastically responded to his comment about burning the flag by saying that I would see him at some hypothetical meeting that obviously won't take place?

Or is it my love for run on sentences?


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## Nightfly (Sep 24, 2002)

PapaG said:


> So unsurprised that this guy was the latest addition to the moderating "staff".


Pretty sure Dan wasn't being serious.

Unless... he was...


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

IT's interesting that people in other countries are proud of their heritage... People in the US are proud of other countries heritage. I think the olympics are one thing that we should really hope for World dominance in... It's just a game.


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## PapaG (Oct 4, 2004)

Dan said:


> wait..you're surprised because I understand history and that the US drug it's feet on intervening in WW2, and give credit to the Russians who fought the Germans tooth and nail for years before we even entered the war, and therefore battled a weakened and bloodied German army?
> 
> Or that I sarcastically responded to his comment about burning the flag by saying that I would see him at some hypothetical meeting that obviously won't take place?
> 
> Or is it my love for run on sentences?


I trust you advocated the US stepping in with both feet to head off WWIII?

In a hypothetical manner, of course.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

PapaG said:


> I trust you advocated the US stepping in with both feet to head off WWIII?
> 
> In a hypothetical manner, of course.


Nope. But I trust that you realize that the current events that are taking place in Iraq/the middle east are not even remotely close to those that were taking place during WW2, where Germany was invading countries and placing millions of jews, gypsies, gays and mentally retarded people in concentration camps and killing them.


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## 2k (Dec 30, 2005)

PapaG said:


> I trust you advocated the US stepping in with both feet to head off WWIII?
> 
> In a hypothetical manner, of course.


If we had to constantly respond everyones hypothetical "next WWIII" we would have a war every five to ten years. Hmmmm Iraq, Bosnia, Iraq...


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

Diable said:


> Some people are just too petty and small for this great country...Perhaps you should try another.


Please. Our country welcomes everyone's opinions and ideas. In our country, it's okay to root against us. And that's what makes our country great.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

KingSpeed said:


> Please. Our country welcomes everyone's opinions and ideas. In our country, it's okay to root against us. And that's what makes our country great.



pfft...not true. you have to have the same opinion as everyone else. Duh.

btw, how's the acting gig going Eric? You gonna be on any shows/movies soon?


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

Well, I'm no longer a series regular on "Bones" but I am actually going to be in the next episode that is being shot so that will be weird and interesting. My biggest news though is that I've been asked to be one of 9 celebrities on the Hollywood Knights Celebrity Basketball Team for the USO. We're travelling all over Germany and Belgium and playing basketball against the United States Armed Forces. Should I be scared? It's in late September. I'm kind of excited about it. Here's the activities that are listed:

_A series of basketball games of celebrities vs. troops on several bases, riding on board tanks, humvees and helicopters, visiting war rooms, firing live munitions, landing on an aircraft carrier, watching military K9 demonstrations and operating weapon and flight simulators. _

Crazy, huh? I don't know who the other 8 guys are but we're gonna get killed, right?


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

I have $20 on the armed forces :biggrin:

That does sound pretty cool


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

I wonder who my teammates are.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

KingSpeed said:


> I wonder who my teammates are.



I have another $20 on this guy being your teammate...

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AKjEangX15w&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AKjEangX15w&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Terry Crews


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## KingSpeed (Oct 30, 2003)

He could be. He plays in the NBAE. Do you know something?


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## c_note (Jan 30, 2007)

DaRizzle said:


> Dude...its basketball, not war


No, it's not just basketball. The olympics are definitely "bigger than basketball"....


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## #10 (Jul 23, 2004)

Schilly said:


> IT's interesting that people in other countries are proud of their heritage... People in the US are proud of other countries heritage. I think the olympics are one thing that we should really hope for World dominance in... It's just a game.


Personally I'd call myself indifferent to the hypothetical idea of a national team, as I don't really feel any association with the rest of the country outside the Pacific NW. Now add in some players I don't like, namely Kobe and Carmelo, and ESPN's inevitable hype, I start to cheer against the team.
I'm not proud of any other country's heritage either though, I'd only support Spain because of Rudy.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

c_note said:


> No, it's not just basketball. The olympics are definitely "bigger than basketball"....


uh...ok..How about "Its really important basketball, not war". Happy?


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

KingSpeed said:


> He could be. He plays in the NBAE. Do you know something?


Nah, I just remember him from the 08 NBA celebrity game. His intro was hilarious, he was over the top pumped up!...here is some other stuff he tends to pull off for fun
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HxKtM9MJdhg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HxKtM9MJdhg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## DonCorleone (Jul 1, 2005)

KingSpeed said:


> I wonder who my teammates are.












Dustin Diamond.....without a doubt.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

KingSpeed said:


> I wonder who my teammates are.


Hmm... Stephen Hawking, I'd guess.










Ed O.


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## chairman (Jul 2, 2006)

Dan said:


> wait..you're surprised because I understand history and that the US drug it's feet on intervening in WW2, and give credit to the Russians who fought the Germans tooth and nail for years before we even entered the war, and therefore battled a weakened and bloodied German army?


Personally I would give the Russians very little credit for jumping into world war 2. They started fighting Germany in June of 41' after (and only after) Germany invaded them. Until then they had a very nice little arrangement with them. Invading Russia was the single biggest mistake by Hitler. Yes we were a bit late to the party, but giving any credit to Stalin is a stretch. I do give credit to the russian army though, but again they came in only after they were attacked, just like us.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

KingSpeed said:


> Well, I'm no longer a series regular on "Bones" but I am actually going to be in the next episode that is being shot so that will be weird and interesting. My biggest news though is that I've been asked to be one of 9 celebrities on the Hollywood Knights Celebrity Basketball Team for the USO. We're travelling all over Germany and Belgium and playing basketball against the United States Armed Forces. Should I be scared? It's in late September. I'm kind of excited about it. Here's the activities that are listed:
> 
> _A series of basketball games of celebrities vs. troops on several bases, riding on board tanks, humvees and helicopters, visiting war rooms, firing live munitions, landing on an aircraft carrier, watching military K9 demonstrations and operating weapon and flight simulators. _
> 
> Crazy, huh? I don't know who the other 8 guys are but we're gonna get killed, right?


That's cool Eric. You gotta be talking up the Blazers the WHOLE time you're over there.


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## gatorpops (Dec 17, 2004)

If Nationalism (rooting for your country's team) is so blaise(?)to so many, why have the Olympics at all? 

Why choose to root for any team? Why the Blazers? 

Just seems that Patriotism has been lost to this country. There seems to so little pride in who and what we stand for. 

Maybe that is the problem, *what to stand for*? 

Well at least with my ramblings I brought the Blazers into a thread that is somehow supposed to be a part of a Blazer forum. 

g


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## RoseCity (Sep 27, 2002)

Schilly said:


> IT's interesting that people in other countries are proud of their heritage... People in the US are proud of other countries heritage. I think the olympics are one thing that we should really hope for World dominance in... It's just a game.


Look at the most obvious proud American's - flag waving, gun toting, tobacco chewing, undereducated, small minded folks. It's no wonder.


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## NateBishop3 (Jul 22, 2003)

It isn't so much that I care that you choose to root against the US, that's your right. It irritates me a bit that this forum tends to jump down someone's throat if they make a comment that could be even remotely considered racist or homophobic, but if someone feels offended over anti-American sentiment they are made fun of. It really feels like a double standard and it saddens me. I was born in the US, I'm proud of my heritage and I do feel somewhat disheartened that anyone in this country would root against our team.


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## mobes23 (Jun 29, 2006)

Xericx said:


> You're voting for Obama aren't you?


That's absurd and I couldn't let it pass. I suppose you think a "good" American supports Bush attacking the wrong country (Iraq), while easing up on the Taliban in Afganistan (where we SHOULD have focused), giving huge tax incentives to Hummers while taking them away from hybrids, running up record budget deficits, etc, etc.

Feel free to buy into that nationalistic schlock, but I'm not.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

chairman said:


> Personally I would give the Russians very little credit for jumping into world war 2. They started fighting Germany in June of 41' after (and only after) Germany invaded them. Until then they had a very nice little arrangement with them. Invading Russia was the single biggest mistake by Hitler. Yes we were a bit late to the party, but giving any credit to Stalin is a stretch. I do give credit to the russian army though, but again they came in only after they were attacked, just like us.


the point obviously wasn't that stalin started fighting the nazis just to help the conquered european nations and oppressed minorities, but that the soviet army won the second world war in europe. germany was already defeated by d-day.

and I want the american basketball team to lose too.


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## NateBishop3 (Jul 22, 2003)

And we were fighting a war on two fronts. If we had not defeated the Japanese, and more importantly the Japanese Navy, the Russians might not have been able to do what they did. Japan was an ally of the Germans.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Dan said:


> Actually, I think he's barely in this country as it is!
> 
> Actually, I believe Meru is Kenyan.


It's not where you're from, it's where you're at. I'm from everywhere and nowhere baby!

But Meru is indeed a place in Kenya. And if there's any justice, there's a plaque on a wall in a little Catholic hospital there...


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

meru said:


> It's not where you're from, it's where you're at. I'm from everywhere and nowhere baby!
> 
> But Meru is indeed a place in Kenya. And if there's any justice, there's a plaque on a wall in a little Catholic hospital there...


It's really a shame that people don't understand the semi-inside humor here.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

NateBishop3 said:


> And we were fighting a war on two fronts. If we had not defeated the Japanese, and more importantly the Japanese Navy, the Russians might not have been able to do what they did. Japan was an ally of the Germans.


There's also a point in that we picked one side to go after first because we couldn't have battled two.


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## B_&_B (Feb 19, 2004)

SHAME ON ANY AMERICAN WHO WANTS ANYTHING BUT GOLD FOR OUR AMERICAN ATHELETES IN THE OLYMPICS!


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## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

NateBishop3 said:


> It isn't so much that I care that you choose to root against the US, that's your right. It irritates me a bit that this forum tends to jump down someone's throat if they make a comment that could be even remotely considered racist or homophobic, but if someone feels offended over anti-American sentiment they are made fun of. It really feels like a double standard and it saddens me. I was born in the US, I'm proud of my heritage and I do feel somewhat disheartened that anyone in this country would root against our team.


Well said. I agree with you completely.

I think part of the problem is that many people can't distinguish between being proud of your country, and agreeing with Bush and our current actions. 

I also think some people can't distinguish between being proud of their country and thinking they are "better" than other humans. Being proud that you are American does not mean I think I am "better" than people from other countries. 

I don't like the current state of our country, but I am still extremely proud of the United States and to be an American. And I will always root for my country. 

IMO, it is like having a problem-child. You may disagree with some things they do, but that doesn't mean you are completely ashamed of them, and that you should never mention that you are proud of them.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

blazerboy30 said:


> I also think some people can't distinguish between being proud of their country and thinking they are "better" than other humans. Being proud that you are American does not mean I think I am "better" than people from other countries.


Sounds reasonable enough. I have the following questions:
1. Could/should you be proud of the US BBall team if they got their asses kicked in every game? 
2. What exactly is it that you are being proud of when you're proud of your country? The Grand Canyon? The Constitution? But why are YOU proud of that? I can understand being proud of my son or even proud of something I've done, but is this the same?


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Well this thread ha been interesting...and all this time I thought you POR fans were all lovey dovey :biggrin:

Did the man steal all y'alls "crops"?

Lets all hold hands and take a deep breath

OHMmmmmmmmmmmmm


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

blazerboy30 said:


> I also think some people can't distinguish between being proud of their country and thinking they are "better" than other humans. Being proud that you are American does not mean I think I am "better" than people from other countries.


I'm not entirely sure what this means. If Russia were the first nation to achieve safely putting a human on Mars, would you be "proud" of Russia? If not, why? Why are you "proud" of strangers in the US, but not proud of strangers in Russia? 

In a sense, I am "proud" of accomplishments by Americans. But I am also proud of accomplishments by non-Americans. Though, I am not sure how meaningful the word "pride" is, because it generally implies a sense of grouping. I am proud that MY group did it (group can be self, family, nation, etc). If I am "proud" of the accomplishments of any group, pride becomes a non-meaningful concept. It is more than I am impressed and/or appreciative of what members of any nation are able to accomplish. I don't limit myself just to the people of this nation simply because I happened to be born here.


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## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

meru said:


> Sounds reasonable enough. I have the following questions:
> 1. Could/should you be proud of the US BBall team if they got their asses kicked in every game?
> 2. What exactly is it that you are being proud of when you're proud of your country? The Grand Canyon? The Constitution? But why are YOU proud of that? I can understand being proud of my son or even proud of something I've done, but is this the same?


1. I would be proud to know that we assembled a great group of players who played hard for nothing more than national pride.

2. I am proud of American social progression. I am proud of the American entrepreneur. I am proud of American philanthropy. I am proud of American entertainment. I am proud of American economic growth. I am proud American liberty. I am proud of the hotdog, cheesesteak, hogie, hushpuppies, mac and cheese, freedom (lol) toast, and the cheeseburger. I am proud of Batman, Superman, Spiderman. I am proud of the American immigrant. I am proud of American Medicine. I am proud of America's diversified cultures. 

Just a few off the top of my head


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

^the Lawgiver!!! 

Thats my dog! uh!


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## chairman (Jul 2, 2006)

el_Diablo said:


> the point obviously wasn't that stalin started fighting the nazis just to help the conquered european nations and oppressed minorities, but that the soviet army won the second world war in europe. germany was already defeated by d-day.
> 
> and I want the american basketball team to lose too.


Actually his point was that the Russians were fighting for years before we got into the WAR. That just was not true. And Germany was NOT already defeated by June of 44'.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

I am very proud to be an american and i think we are the best country in the world. I will also vote for our team to win Gold in bball, and in every other competition we are in. GO USA!


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

elcap15 said:


> 2. I am proud of American social progression. I am proud of the American entrepreneur. I am proud of American philanthropy. I am proud of American entertainment. I am proud of American economic growth. I am proud American liberty. I am proud of the hotdog, cheesesteak, hogie, hushpuppies, mac and cheese, freedom (lol) toast, and the cheeseburger. I am proud of Batman, Superman, Spiderman. I am proud of the American immigrant. I am proud of American Medicine. I am proud of America's diversified cultures.


Are you proud of entrepreneurs, social progression, economic growth and all the rest of those fine concepts and entities in other nations, too? If not, why?


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## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> I'm not entirely sure what this means. If Russia were the first nation to achieve safely putting a human on Mars, would you be "proud" of Russia? If not, why? Why are you "proud" of strangers in the US, but not proud of strangers in Russia?
> 
> In a sense, I am "proud" of accomplishments by Americans. But I am also proud of accomplishments by non-Americans. Though, I am not sure how meaningful the word "pride" is, because it generally implies a sense of grouping. I am proud that MY group did it (group can be self, family, nation, etc). If I am "proud" of the accomplishments of any group, pride becomes a non-meaningful concept. It is more than I am impressed and/or appreciative of what members of any nation are able to accomplish. I don't limit myself just to the people of this nation simply because I happened to be born here.


You and I discussed this same issue once before, Minstrel. I believe you mentioned something a long the lines of, for you, the pride you have is proportional to how well the group "represents" you. Well, I'm willing to bet that when you consider the language you speak, your socio-economic class, your religion or lack of religion, your wealth, and many other factors that affect how you live your life, America represents you much better than any other set of 300 million people in the world.


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## Paxil (Jan 1, 2003)

This thread is Epic. We have basketball… politics, WWII, WWIII, updates on Eric’s career, both acting and basketball, patriotism, videos, ignores, quotes, Olympics, guest appearances by Stephen Hawking and Kobe, Shame, Pride and many other great topics I am sure I missed. 

If we split this thread off… we’d double the Chicago’s forum post count by tomorrow. Or better yet… lets just keep this thread going awhile… and pretty soon we will cover every pro-con for any topic that could ever exist. 

I have to admit… it is morbidly entertaining… like a car accident or food fight or a tense political argument after a wild night of drinking… or listening to 10 different conversations at once at a party. This thread *is* the Internet.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

blazerboy30 said:


> You and I discussed this same issue once before, Minstrel. I believe you mentioned something a long the lines of, for you, the pride you have is proportional to how well the group "represents" you. Well, I'm willing to bet that when you consider the language you speak, your socio-economic class, your religion or lack of religion, your wealth, and many other factors that affect how you live your life, America represents you much better than any other set of 300 million people in the world.


I would never agree that a body as large as millions of people "represent" me. Do I feel represented by the millions of people who are against gay marriage? No. Do I feel represented by the millions who think creationism (or it's re-labeled version, intelligent design) should be taught in science classes? No. How about all the racists? Yes, every nation has millions of people who I don't feel would represent me, which is why I don't feel nationalism to any nation. I am far more represented by a Swede who shares my political views, has the same opinions on tolerance as I do then by a Texan who thinks gays are sinners and evolution is bunk.

I am represented by people who are like me, not by people who reside in a certain geography. Some of those people who are like me are in the US. Some are in Northern or Western Europe. Some are in India. Etc.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

elcap15 said:


> 1. I would be proud to know that we assembled a great group of players who played hard for nothing more than national pride.


You were on the selection committee!? You should feel nothing but shame then - you could have included SEVERAL Blazers!



> 2. I am proud of American social progression. I am proud of the American entrepreneur. I am proud of American philanthropy. I am proud of American entertainment. I am proud of American economic growth. I am proud American liberty. I am proud of the hotdog, cheesesteak, hogie, hushpuppies, mac and cheese, freedom (lol) toast, and the cheeseburger. I am proud of Batman, Superman, Spiderman. I am proud of the American immigrant. I am proud of American Medicine. I am proud of America's diversified cultures.
> 
> Just a few off the top of my head


Okay - I guess I wasn't clear enough. (Plus you didn't answer the second part of question 2, which was really the point.) Let me try again:
(a) given that you don't know most Americans, don't like lots that you do know, and only have in common with them the fact that people TELL you you're part of some semi-mythical "country" with them (that itself is an accident of history, most of it bloody and nothing to be proud of), why is PRIDE the appropriate feeling?
(b) Do you also feel SHAME for all the horrible things in American history, past and present (as you probably would if you found out your kid was a murderer or something)? See, not identifying with any particular country shields you from a lot...


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Paxil said:


> I have to admit… it is morbidly entertaining… ... This thread *is* the Internet.


Wait - what is that strange, unfamiliar tingling sensation? Could THIS be what pride feels like?


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

RoseCity said:


> Look at the most obvious proud American's - flag waving, gun toting, tobacco chewing, undereducated, small minded folks. It's no wonder.


No I don't think it's that at all. I would never be not proud to be an American just because another American is a moron. But we are a rare country in that the majority of our roots are less than 150 years. Americans as a whole are really interested in their heritage and Ancestry, as a result we gravitate towards the roots of our family. Sure almost all of us root for the US, but most also have a 2nd or even 3rd country that we also root for, because that's where grandma was born, or great grandpa etc..etc...


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Didn't bother to read the thread, mainly because the title leads me to believe that the OP isn't worth reading.

Not wanting to the US to win in the Olympics just doesn't make sense, supposing you're from the US.


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## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> I would never agree that a body as large as millions of people "represent" me. Do I feel represented by the millions of people who are against gay marriage? No. Do I feel represented by the millions who think creationism (or it's re-labeled version, intelligent design) should be taught in science classes? No. How about all the racists? Yes, every nation has millions of people who I don't feel would represent me, which is why I don't feel nationalism to any nation. I am far more represented by a Swede who shares my political views, has the same opinions on tolerance as I do then by a Texan who thinks gays are sinners and evolution is bunk.
> 
> I am represented by people who are like me, not by people who reside in a certain geography. Some of those people who are like me are in the US. Some are in Northern or Western Europe. Some are in India. Etc.



That is fine. And what you will find is that America has a larger number of those people than anywhere else in the world. Therefore, on AVERAGE, America will be a better representation of you.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

chairman said:


> Actually his point was that the Russians were fighting for years before we got into the WAR. That just was not true.


actually they had, but not against the germans. so what you are saying is true in the context of this discussion. I'm just arguing the russians won the war in europe for the allies. not alone, but they might have even been able to manage that. britain and usa helped, obviously.



> And Germany was NOT already defeated by June of 44'.


germany lost the eastern front in the battle of kursk, which took place in july and august 1943. that was their last real effort to turn around the eastern front, after which the russians were always going all the way to berlin.. and even paris had the western allies not realised they couldn't let soviet union control the whole continent.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

blazerboy30 said:


> That is fine. And what you will find is that America has a larger number of those people than anywhere else in the world. Therefore, on AVERAGE, America will be a better representation of you.


A larger raw number, sure. I wouldn't say a larger percentage. I've lived in Sweden and England, and I'd say that a greater percentage of their populations are more similar to my ideals. And heck, they even speak English in those nations (as a second language, in Sweden, but it's pretty common).

But, in any case, it is largely irrelevant. I don't consider nations to be meaningful constructs. I don't put any store in who is on one side of a border and who is on another. If you think about the world without the borders (conceptually, I obviously understand this will never actually happen), the people who are intrinsically "like" me are scattered around the globe. There are probably more people superficially like me in this country due to regional culture...I grew up watching many of the same shows, hearing many of the same things in school, observing many of the same holidays, etc. But I don't consider that the most meaningful way to judge similarity. All that says is that you grew up in the same part of the world, not that you have the same principles or beliefs.

So when it comes to the Olympics, I do actually root for the US just for fun. Just to have a rooting interest, since I'm the type who likes to root for someone. But I don't feel a sense of national pride or satisfaction if they actually win. It's great for them. They worked hard and earned it. And if a Chinese gymnast puts on a dazzling performance and wins, I am just as appreciative of the hard work he or she put in and how great they are at it. I don't see any value to being appreciative of strangers who come from my part of the world and not just as appreciative of strangers who come from other parts of the world.


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## rock747 (Aug 3, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> I'm not rooting for or against the US. Their accomplishments reflect on them, not me. If they win gold, it doesn't say anything about me. They worked hard for it, not me.


Interesting. So how do you feel if the Blazers win? If they win it doesn't say anything about you either.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> A larger raw number, sure. I wouldn't say a larger percentage. *I've lived in Sweden *and England, and I'd say that a greater percentage of their populations are more similar to my ideals. And heck, they even speak English in those nations (as a second language, in Sweden, but it's pretty common).


I feel sorry for you. must have been a horrible experience.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

rock747 said:


> Interesting. So how do you feel if the Blazers win? If they win it doesn't say anything about you either.


this is pretty interesting discussion. 

some boards have these idiotic fans who think they are somehow better than other fans just because their teams win. that's insane.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

rock747 said:


> Interesting. So how do you feel if the Blazers win? If they win it doesn't say anything about you either.


I absolutely agree. It says nothing about me. Which is why I try not to say "We won" or, even more obnoxiously, tell other fans "Let me know when YOU'VE won something." That second type of sentiment is endemic in sports trash talk, and fairly idiotic among fans. Fans didn't do anything or win anything. They have zero position to be smug or superior, when their team wins.

Sports fandom is for fun. The Blazers (or 49ers, or A's) don't represent me. It's just fun to have someone to root for.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

el_Diablo said:


> I feel sorry for you. must have been a horrible experience.


Where are you from? Denmark? 

I think Sweden is a fantastic nation. Stockholm is a gorgeous city, the people are very friendly and the attitudes of the majority of the people are extremely tolerant and progressive. It's one of the least sexist, racist and homophobic nations in the world. So, not a horrible experience at all.


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## rock747 (Aug 3, 2004)

> I absolutely agree. It says nothing about me. Which is why I try not to say "We won" or, even more obnoxiously, tell other fans "Let me know when YOU'VE won something." That second type of sentiment is endemic in sports trash talk, and fairly idiotic among fans. Fans didn't do anything or win anything. They have zero position to be smug or superior, when their team wins.
> 
> Sports fandom is for fun. The Blazers (or 49ers, or A's) don't represent me. It's just fun to have someone to root for.


Makes sense, but in your original post you said you didn't root for the U.S. Yet, you would have to root for the Blazers to be a fan of them.



> I'm not rooting for or against the US. Their accomplishments reflect on them, not me. If they win gold, it doesn't say anything about me. They worked hard for it, not me.


So if your sentiments are the same about the U.S. and the Blazers you wouldn't be rooting for the Blazers either correct?


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Where are you from? Denmark?


bah, we eat danes for breakfast. you should have gone east instead of southwest.

edit: 

and this is reserved for swedes: one of the 1st encounters between swedes and finns


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

rock747 said:


> Makes sense, but in your original post you said you didn't root for the U.S. Yet, you would have to root for the Blazers to be a fan of them.
> 
> 
> 
> So if your sentiments are the same about the U.S. and the Blazers you wouldn't be rooting for the Blazers either correct?


Yes, that was wrong. As I said in a later post, I DO root for the US, just for the fun of rooting. What I meant in my initial post, is that I don't root one way or the other out of national pride or identity.

Similarly, I don't root for the Blazers out of identity. I don't identify with them. I root for them because in sports it fun to have a rooting interest.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

el_Diablo said:


> bah, we eat danes for breakfast. you should have gone east instead of southwest.


Finland seems like a pretty cool country, too, though I've not lived there. Lovely language, though. Melodic.


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## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

> You were on the selection committee!? You should feel nothing but shame then - you could have included SEVERAL Blazers!


Several Blazers could have been on the team. Unfortunately, not every great player in the league gets to go, there are only so many spots. I dont understand what being on the selection committee has to do with supporting American players who are representing our country in the olypics




> Okay - I guess I wasn't clear enough. (Plus you didn't answer the second part of question 2, which was really the point.) Let me try again:
> (a) given that you don't know most Americans, don't like lots that you do know, and only have in common with them the fact that people TELL you you're part of some semi-mythical "country" with them (that itself is an accident of history, most of it bloody and nothing to be proud of), why is PRIDE the appropriate feeling?
> (b) Do you also feel SHAME for all the horrible things in American history, past and present (as you probably would if you found out your kid was a murderer or something)? See, not identifying with any particular country shields you from a lot...


a) What is mythical about America? I dont understand that point at all. 
I am self-employed and entrepreneurial. I pay taxes to support our government and vote to elect officials who represent my beliefs. I bask in the freedom and liberty provided by our forefathers. I have relatives who fought in wars for this country. I went through a publicly funded university. I celebrate the Fourth of July, Cinco de mayo, and St Patricks day. I do not support America because someone TELLS me Im American, I support America because I PARTICIPATE in many great things provided by this country. 

b) I do feel sorry for all of the things that happened in the past. Seeing how they happened in the past prevents me from doing too much about it. Also the source of some of our greates injustices are simultaneously the source of some of our most gratifying achievements, and bloodiest wars as you stated. We fought a war to free slaves and unite the union, we fought a war to stop genecide, we fought a war against oppressive forms of government.


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## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> Are you proud of entrepreneurs, social progression, economic growth and all the rest of those fine concepts and entities in other nations, too? If not, why?


Of course I am happy for them, but I do not have a sense of National pride. You have to accept that much of the improvement seen in other nations in those areas is directly attributable to the United States.


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## rock747 (Aug 3, 2004)

> Yes, that was wrong. As I said in a later post, I DO root for the US, just for the fun of rooting. What I meant in my initial post, is that I don't root one way or the other out of national pride or identity.
> 
> Similarly, I don't root for the Blazers out of identity. I don't identify with them. I root for them because in sports it fun to have a rooting interest.


I see. I didn't read through all 6+ pages of posts. 


Aren't sports teams set up to be identifiable with fans though? They're named after the cities/states in which they play. Most the fans from those cities root for those specific teams as well. I don't really beleive that most of the fans would really identify with the players on their favorite team, but most beleive that somehow they do. I also agree that there is nothing more annoying than a fan using the word "we" when reffering to his/her favorite team, as they have nothing to do with it's success or failure.


As for the Olympics, most people root for the U.S. because it's their countries team. Is that not why you choose to root for them? Don't you identify with them because they play in the United States, play for the professional sports league you grew up watching, because they are also americans, or even because they grew up in a similar culture as you?


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## gatorpops (Dec 17, 2004)

meru said:


> You were on the selection committee!? You should feel nothing but shame then - you could have included SEVERAL Blazers!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I assume at least that you are at least a part of the group that is know as the "Human Race", if so, are you proud of that association or somehow, at least glad for the fact? 

g


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

rock747 said:


> Aren't sports teams set up to be identifiable with fans though?


They are, yes. It's a form of tribalism, which is an ingrained part of human nature. We like to identify with tribes of people that we can find an association with. Largely this is, IMO, as a form of competition. Us versus them. I don't think that's a great sentiment or a very useful one, and it underpins nationalism, organized religion (which is different from belief in god) and, to a far lesser extent, identifying with a sports team. 



> As for the Olympics, most people root for the U.S. because it's their countries team. Is that not why you choose to root for them? Don't you identify with them because they play in the United States, play for the professional sports league you grew up watching, because they are also americans, or even because they grew up in a similar culture as you?


I realize why most people do it. I just think it is irrational. Ultimately, the athletes are there for themselves, not for you. They aren't competing because they feel a kinship to you and want to do you proud. They are competing because they love the sport and have spent a large part of their lives doing nothing but working hard to become great at it. And that's great. I have no issues with that. But, at the end of the day, they are representing themselves and achieving for themselves, just like the athletes of every other nation. I don't feel a special kinship to this group of strangers over that group of strangers just because they grew up in the same general part of the world as me.


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## rock747 (Aug 3, 2004)

[/QUOTE]I realize why most people do it. I just think it is irrational. [/QUOTE]

So why did you choose the US to root for then? Why not Germany if they're just groups of strangers? Maybe because they are broadcasted and play in the Nation you live in? Your familiar with them and can identify with them. 



> Ultimately, the athletes are there for themselves, not for you. They aren't competing because they feel a kinship to you and want to do you proud. They are competing because they love the sport and have spent a large part of their lives doing nothing but working hard to become great at it. And that's great. I have no issues with that. But, at the end of the day, they are representing themselves and achieving for themselves, just like the athletes of every other nation. I don't feel a special kinship to this group of strangers over that group of strangers just because they grew up in the same general part of the world as me.


I see, but i find basketball different. They don't HAVE to play in the Olympics and aren't paid to do so. I beleive that the players play for Team USA because they feel it is the honorable thing to do, not so much them feeling a kinship towards me. Why else would they do it? They are getting paid millions by their NBA team and could spend the summer somewhere vacationing. I do beleive however that the NBA players that play for you favorite team feel no sense of identity to the local fan. Seeing as most are transplanted to their certain NBA team.

I could understand the other olympians competing in events (track and feild etc) doing it just for themselves, because it's the biggest stage they will ever compete on.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

minstrel proves he's an elitist.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

rock747 said:


> So why did you choose the US to root for then?


Because they're the home team. As good a way to decide as any. Just as I root for the 49ers and A's because they're the home teams. But it's out of fun, not out of identification.



> I see, but i find basketball different. They don't HAVE to play in the Olympics and aren't paid to do so. I beleive that the players play for Team USA because they feel it is the honorable thing to do, not so much them feeling a kinship towards me. Why else would they do it? They are getting paid millions by their NBA team and could spend the summer somewhere vacationing. I do beleive however that the NBA players that play for you favorite team feel no sense of identity to the local fan. Seeing as most are transplanted to their certain NBA team.
> 
> I could understand the other olympians competing in events (track and feild etc) doing it just for themselves, because it's the biggest stage they will ever compete on.


You may have a point, though I think most of them enjoy the idea of competing in the biggest sporting event in the world. In any case, whether they are patriotic or not doesn't enter into whether I see them as more important to me (and thus, making me desire their success) than the players on other teams. Americans aren't more important to me than Chinese, Indians or Brits. No less important to me, either. People is people. Geography and national borders aren't particularly important.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Dan said:


> minstrel proves he's an elitist.


Well, yes. Ultimately, nobody quite lives up to the example I set. Perhaps if there were a nation of people who shared the same impressive ideals and principles as me, and had the same great taste in music, books and visual arts, I'd be fiercely nationalistic to that nation. Let's call it Minstrel Island. Or the People's Republic of Minstrel. 

Just the idea of it brings a tear to my eye. Lovely dream.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

gatorpops said:


> I assume at least that you are at least a part of the group that is know as the "Human Race", if so, are you proud of that association or somehow, at least glad for the fact?


I wish I loved the Human Race;
I wish I loved its silly face;
I wish I liked the way it walks;
I wish I liked the way it talks; 
And when I’m introduced to one,
I wish I thought "What Jolly Fun!"


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## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> I don't feel a special kinship to this group of strangers over that group of strangers just because they grew up in the same general part of the world as me.


Minstrel, not trying to single you out or criticize, but this is interesting to me. 

If the United States was engaged in a war with, say, China, or all of Asia, would you care which country won? Why or why not?


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

why doesn't everyone take a little time -out and enjoy this little intermission?

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EsUM7V6Ku_8&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EsUM7V6Ku_8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sWS-FoXbjVI&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sWS-FoXbjVI&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fJuNgBkloFE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fJuNgBkloFE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


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## rock747 (Aug 3, 2004)

> In any case, whether they are patriotic or not doesn't enter into whether I see them as more important to me (and thus, making me desire their success) than the players on other teams. Americans aren't more important to me than Chinese, Indians or Brits. No less important to me, either. People is people. Geography and national borders aren't particularly important.


Fair enough. Just because you root for the U.S. out of identification doesn't mean you don't accept other people or feel they're less important. 

By the way you talk, it seems as though you would support a one world government.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

blazerboy30 said:


> Minstrel, not trying to single you out or criticize, but this is interesting to me. [


I don't feel singled out or criticized. I joined this debate because I'm happy to explore my ideas and the ideas of others.



> If the United States was engaged in a war with, say, China, or all of Asia, would you care which country won? Why or why not?


It depends on what the war was about, of course. Well, perhaps not "of course," as I imagine most Americans would want the US to win regardless. But if the US were trying to subjugate China or Asia, I'd care and hope the US fails. I'm anti-subjugation. If the Chinese government were trying to subjugate other nations, I'd hope the US succeeds in stopping them.

I don't value Americans more or less than other people. Death, misery, injustice are bad things regardless of where they happen or who is causing it. If the US is dealing it, I'd be against the US. When it comes to the history of the US against the native Americans, I am anti-US, for example. Their systematic attempts to exterminate the native Americans, their frequent betrayals of treaties with the native Americans and their marginalization of the native Americans...well, obviously I wasn't around for it, but if it happened today between the US and another nation, I'd hope the US loses.

I don't invoke the Nazis randomly, but I think this is a perfectly good use of the example. If the US went the route of Nazi Germany, shouldn't we be against the US?


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

cheesy 80's guitar rift song aside (btw, did anyone else expect it to end with "MacGruber!"?)..my video was cooler.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

rock747 said:


> By the way you talk, it seems as though you would support a one world government.


If it were at all practical.


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## rock747 (Aug 3, 2004)

> If it were at all practical.


I don't see how it could be. I beleive it would be a dangerous venture.


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## yuyuza1 (May 24, 2006)

DaRizzle said:


> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fJuNgBkloFE&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fJuNgBkloFE&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>



:lol:

That was hilarious!


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

elcap15 said:


> a) What is mythical about America? I dont understand that point at all.


I recommend the following:


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Phooey!


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

I hope all of Europe falls into the ocean


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## #10 (Jul 23, 2004)

funny, everyone's been hoping california does the same for years now.

Rudy vs Kobe rivalry..... :yes:


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Sounds like that has as much of a chance as Kobe vs. the "Kobe Stopper" :whistling:


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## #10 (Jul 23, 2004)

fine, Rudy vs Sasha
this
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gFRcF75wgu0&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gFRcF75wgu0&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
times a million :rock:


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

low blow!!!!!! That never happened!!!!


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