# Why don't we trade Kirk?



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

If we have Duhon locked up long term to a cheapish contract, and he runs our team the best. And Gordon's defense on SG's has apparently improved...then what's the point of keeping Kirk around? Kirk isn't a bench player in this league really. Why not trade him and address a need?

Send him to Atlanta with our Knicks picks for Josh Smith. Let Smith be our PF of the future.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> If we have Duhon locked up long term to a cheapish contract, and he runs our team the best. And Gordon's defense on SG's has apparently improved...then what's the point of keeping Kirk around? Kirk isn't a bench player in this league really. Why not trade him and address a need?
> 
> Send him to Atlanta with our Knicks picks for Josh Smith. Let Smith be our PF of the future.



Kirk, picks and fatboy for Bosh. Smith played 2 guard last year and is probably a 3 eventually.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> Kirk, picks and fatboy for Bosh. Smith played 2 guard last year and is probably a 3 eventually.


I like it. Bosh would be a god-send for the Bulls and would likely elimate our need to find any starters on the free agent market next summer. Plus, a 4/5 combo of Bosh & Chandler makes me :drool:.Not sure if the Raptors would do it though, as they searched YEARS for a competent big man. But a struggling franchise going nowhere would be enticed by the draft picks as well as a young talent like Hinrich.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

Bosh was a name that bubbled to the top of my thinking when Eddy was moved.

Unfortunately, it looks like he and Villanueva may be able to form a very potent duo--meaning he's less likely to want to leave Toronto.
http://www.raptorblog.com/#101305_0030


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

yodurk said:


> I like it. Bosh would be a god-send for the Bulls and would likely elimate our need to find any starters on the free agent market next summer. Plus, a 4/5 combo of Bosh & Chandler makes me :drool:.Not sure if the Raptors would do it though, as they searched YEARS for a competent big man. But a struggling franchise going nowhere would be enticed by the draft picks as well as a young talent like Hinrich.


I would even give them cap relief to get it done, meaning trading a Tim Thomas for a long term deal that they might want to unload.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> I would even give them cap relief to get it done, meaning trading a Tim Thomas for a long term deal that they might want to unload.


:rotf: 

That long term deal they wanna unload would be Jalen Rose


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> :rotf:
> 
> That long term deal they wanna unload would be Jalen Rose




That'd be a laugh. I'll take it.


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

Mikedc said:


> :rotf:
> 
> That long term deal they wanna unload would be Jalen Rose


:wink:


Sign me up.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> :rotf:
> 
> That long term deal they wanna unload would be Jalen Rose


I'd be fine with Jalen coming back as long as he accepts a bench role. Thing is, I don't see that happening. It'd be funny though, that's for sure. :biggrin:


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

How's about their choice of Ben/Kirk, Sweetney, and Thomas, and our two #1 picks for Brand and Maggette. I figure the Clips would take Ben though.

1- Hinrich/Duhon
2- Maggette/_Hinrich_
3- Deng, Nocioni
4- Brand, Songaila
5- Chandler, Davis

(Yes, we do pretty much have to recruit Coach K to coach them).

I sort of think the Clippers wouldn't do this, but then again, clearing all that salary cap room would at least be temptation to drive DTS back to the Dark Side.

The downside is that leaves us with only about $5.7M in potential cap space, which is basically just the MLE. It gives us a bit more flexibility with trades, I spose, but it doesn't look too promising to me if our goal is actually to win a championship (an NBA championship I mean, we'd definitely make the Final Four every year!).


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I'd take Jalen back if it meant getting Bosh. Yeah. If we could make a deal for Bosh happen, I'd be down with that. I was trying to figure out deals to teams that have possible fours but are kind of weak at point guard. It's kind of hard to find teams with bad point guards these days when you actually start thinking on it. And most of the teams without point guards are superstar plus one type of teams.

What about Kirk, Tim Thomas, and a draft pickfor Al Jefferson and a bum contract?


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

I'd do a Hinrich, TT for Bosh and Rose trade in a heartbeat. Rose's obscene contract is only 1 year longer, fits perfectly in resigning Gordon and Deng in that offseason. Maybe include one of our PF too, to back up Villanueva.

Even after the stupid Carter trade, i doubt the Raps would trade Bosh.
As for trying to pry away Jefferson, the C's wouldn't do it either.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> How's about their choice of Ben/Kirk, Sweetney, and Thomas, and our two #1 picks for Brand and Maggette. I figure the Clips would take Ben though.
> 
> 1- Hinrich/Duhon
> 2- Maggette/_Hinrich_
> ...



You almost have to keep Ben because of the lack of fire power.

Brand and Maggette are rumored to be enemies. I dont know if that would work or not. 

As most people know, Im fond of long atheletes. Bosh fits that mold. He is tall for his position, he can step out and do a number of things and he isnt going to be overwhelmed by speed or length. If we had to take back Rose I would do it.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> How's about their choice of Ben/Kirk


I can understand trading Kirk, but shipping off Gordon would be committing suicide. He's becomming the face of the franchise, especially after last season.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

I'd also do Hinrich, along with a first-rounder for Bosh in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, I don't think Toronto would. 

It doesn't matter anyway, I don't think, because I can't see Pax(Skiles) ever trading Kirk, or at least not any time soon. I'm guessing they want him to be the face of the franchise, not Ben. He's going to be here a while.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

Yeah i know he'd probably push for Hinrich to be the first thing associated with the Bulls, but after Gordon's performance last year, and providing he does improve fans will think of Gordon first.


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

PC Load Letter said:


> I can't see Pax(Skiles) ever trading Kirk, or at least not any time soon. I'm guessing they want him to be the face of the franchise, not Ben. He's going to be here a while.


I think that would be a bit myopic. Assuming Duhon is the best at running the team and will play the 1, that a non-scoring center is locked in for the next 7 years, and that Sweetney is the 4, you've got to get some explosive scoring ability from either the 2 or 3 or both.

Thats more Gordon than it is Kirk. Defense wins championships, but you need a superstar or two on the other end of the floor.

It just would not be a good basketball decision. Kirks a model for the other players to follow. The organization should not be built around him.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

If Ben were only a little bigger, Kirk might be more tradeable. Unless Ben's defense gets Dumars-good, Kirk is still our only big minute guard that can really guard the 2. 

Kirk is also clearly the administration's favorite player, so I'm sure that factors in. As for Bosh, I think he is the Raptors administration's favorite player, so I don't suspect he will go anywhere either, at least until he reaches free agency.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

pipe dreams guys, we are NOT getting chris bosh, al jefferson, or Brand. we have shots at getting PP, maggete type of player, but sorry those 3 big guys are out of reach for us.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

I wonder if the Knicks would trade us Eddy Curry for Kirk?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Has Gordon's defense on shooting guards improved? I assumed Skiles meant his defense improved on point guards, which is who he usually matches up with, since Hinrich takes the shooting guards. 

I don't think Gordon will ever be able to guard shooting guards. You just can't do that at 6'1. 

Starting Duhon and Gordon in the same backcourt would put a big dent in our defense, which is what wins us games. 

So the dilemna goes.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

Soulful Sides said:


> I think that would be a bit myopic. Assuming Duhon is the best at running the team and will play the 1, that a non-scoring center is locked in for the next 7 years, and that Sweetney is the 4, you've got to get some explosive scoring ability from either the 2 or 3 or both.
> 
> Thats more Gordon than it is Kirk. Defense wins championships, but you need a superstar or two on the other end of the floor.
> 
> It just would not be a good basketball decision. Kirks a model for the other players to follow. The organization should not be built around him.


Agreed completely with everything here. Well-said.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Has Gordon's defense on shooting guards improved? I assumed Skiles meant his defense improved on point guards, which is who he usually matches up with, since Hinrich takes the shooting guards.
> 
> I don't think Gordon will ever be able to guard shooting guards. You just can't do that at 6'1.
> 
> ...


In the 2 preseason games, Kirk guarded Billups and Mighty Mouse and Ben guarded Rip and Eddie Jones. Maybe Skiles just wants to see what Ben can do guarding SG, or maybe he figures his strength better suits him to handle the bigger players?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Has Gordon's defense on shooting guards improved? I assumed Skiles meant his defense improved on point guards, which is who he usually matches up with, since Hinrich takes the shooting guards.
> 
> I don't think Gordon will ever be able to guard shooting guards. You just can't do that at 6'1.
> 
> ...


Against Detroit they started with Gordon on Rip Hamilton of all people..terrible matchup for Ben and he got into early foul trouble and got burned plenty. He had to grab Rip at least twice just to contain him. They finally switched Hinrich over and he did a better job. Of course, a matchup with Rip is one of the worst Ben could hope for sans T-Mac, Kobe, PP, etc...


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Yeah, Ben Gordon will need to develop a handle good enough to get the team into the offense, or else Skiles will need to talk with Hinrich about getting the ball into the offense quicker. The latter seems more realistic to me, but it can't happen until it becomes his role.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> You almost have to keep Ben because of the lack of fire power.
> 
> Brand and Maggette are rumored to be enemies. I dont know if that would work or not.
> 
> As most people know, Im fond of long atheletes. Bosh fits that mold. He is tall for his position, he can step out and do a number of things and he isnt going to be overwhelmed by speed or length. If we had to take back Rose I would do it.


But if you add Brand and Maggette then you've got firepower (though, of course, I agree we've got more with Ben + those two). Is 

1- Gordon/Duhon
2- Maggette/_Gordon_
3- Deng, Nocioni
4- Brand, Songaila
5- Chandler, Davis

a championship lineup either?

I also would prefer Bosh to Brand, but I'd prefer Brand and Maggette and a bit of cap space to Bosh, Rose, and no cap space.

Rose coming back here ain't gonna happen with Pax running the show. And honestly after reading the articles posted here, I don't think the Raptors could be swayed to trade him.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Chandler, Brand and Deng would be one of the best frontcourts in the league, all of their styles fit really well together. I really don't like Maggette though. MikeDC, you think Gordon can run the point?


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

A question for those who have watched the first two preseason games...Gordon's struggles have been well documented but he's leading the team in assists with 3.5 per and has only turned it over 3 times total. Is this a reflection of better decision making and vision or just a statistical anomaly?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

jbulls said:


> A question for those who have watched the first two preseason games...Gordon's struggles have been well documented but he's leading the team in assists with 3.5 per and has only turned it over 3 times total. Is this a reflection of better decision making and vision or just a statistical anomaly?


anomaly. He's doing a good job of not turning it over as much but the assists are mostly dumb luck as much as setting things up.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

How about we give up
Kirk
Pike
Thomas
one of the #1 picks

for 

Maglorie
PJ Brown
Speedy Claxton

Allows Oklahoma City to flush out that salary one year early and gives us a good, starter level big man, an AD type off the bench and a very good guard in Claxton.

I like the MikeDC trade and the RLucas trade as well... I just don't see why the other side would do it.

Duhon / Gordon
Claxton / Gordon / Pargo
Deng / Nocioni / Songolia
Chandler / Sweets / Songolia
Maglorie / Brown / Othella

(the drawback to this lineup is outside shooting, save for gordon and pargo.... maybe another guard in return woud be better... or send gordon to Oklahoma if they would still do it)


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> How's about their choice of Ben/Kirk, Sweetney, and Thomas, and our two #1 picks for Brand and Maggette.


Sign me up.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> I wonder if the Knicks would trade us Eddy Curry for Kirk?


I'd only do it if they threw in Jamal.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

I think we need to get a better look at our team (over a substantial stretch of the regular season) before we consider making blockbuster deals...


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> How about we give up
> Kirk
> Pike
> Thomas
> ...



worst trade in the history of this bulls fourm, also the worst possible starting guards ever in NBA history.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

instead of all the delimma, give ben up, hes the one thats creating all the delimma cause he really don't have a defined role. get PP go to with kirk, problem solved. kirk returns to his natural best position, PP brings the firepower and not a liability in def. everyone wroks out.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Sith said:


> worst trade in the history of this bulls fourm, also the worst possible starting guards ever in NBA history.


I am fairly positive that the 1999-2000 Bulls trotted out far worse starting guards on a nightly basis. Here are all the guards from that team who started at least one game:

Matt Maloney
Chris Carr
Hersey Hawkins
Randy Brown
Corey Benjamin
Fred Hoiberg
B.J. Armstrong
Dedric Willoughby

Duhon and Claxton look Springfield-bound next to that rabble.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Sith said:


> worst trade in the history of this bulls fourm, also the worst possible starting guards ever in NBA history.



LOL... good luck getting a better big man for Hinrich.

And Claxton is good. On the same level as Hinrich.

We could start the great Ben Gordon and bring Claxton off the bench if that would make you happier.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> And Claxton is good. On the same level as Hinrich.


You can't be serious.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> LOL... good luck getting a better big man for Hinrich.
> 
> And Claxton is good. On the same level as Hinrich.
> 
> We could start the great Ben Gordon and bring Claxton off the bench if that would make you happier.



LOL, yeah i was just kidding, but u can't deny that those guards are pretty horrible 
i know we can't get bosh/jefferson for kirk, young talented big men with unlimited potentials are expensive in this league. i said we try to get paul pierce for ben gordon+pick + an expiring contract.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> LOL... good luck getting a better big man for Hinrich.
> 
> And Claxton is good. On the same level as Hinrich.
> 
> We could start the great Ben Gordon and bring Claxton off the bench if that would make you happier.


Claxton is a really nice backup. He's certainly not better than Hinrich.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I didn't know Maggette and Brand were on the outs.


Looking at the Clips, they seem to be insistant on playing Maggs at the 3. Would they prefer a more pure 3? Suppose we gave them Nocioni and the two picks. Would that be remotely conceivable?


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Ben to the Clips makes a LOT of sense. They like Maggs at the 3 so Livingston and Gordon in backcourt is nice. Ben,Sweet,Thomas(cap relief) for Brand is a good deal for us. Whomever said that Chandler/Brand/Deng is a perfect frontcourt was exactly right. They are a wonderful fit together.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Basghetti80 said:


> Whomever said that Chandler/Brand/Deng is a perfect frontcourt was exactly right. They are a wonderful fit together.


Three guys with 7'0+ wingspans, three guys who rebound well, three guys who defend really well, and two of the three have really good offensive game, and the other (Chandler) makes up for it with interior defense and rebounding. 

Would be lovely.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Three guys with 7'0+ wingspans, three guys who rebound well, three guys who defend really well, and two of the three have really good offensive game, and the other (Chandler) makes up for it with interior defense and rebounding.
> 
> Would be lovely.



Bosh would be better IMO.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

Why would the Raptors ever trade Bosh?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> Bosh would be better IMO.


I don't think so. Elton Brand plays closer to the hoop. Bosh is a face up midrange big man. Deng doesn't have great range (yet), but we'd have terrible spacing with Bosh. I'm not sure Bosh will ever be as good as Brand is right now.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> And Claxton is good. On the same level as Hinrich.


Claxton sure isn't bad (he's pretty effective), but he's not on the same level as Hinrich (or Gordon). Claxton's a career 9 ppg/15% 3pt player, perfect for a backup role.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I don't think so. Elton Brand plays closer to the hoop. Bosh is a face up midrange big man. Deng doesn't have great range (yet), but we'd have terrible spacing with Bosh. I'm not sure Bosh will ever be as good as Brand is right now.



I think Bosh is a better player right now. Bosh actually allows the spacing to be better. Chandler does almost all of his work on the O Glass. Brand would clog that laneup for Chandler. Deng, who knows, but I believe he will have the total offensive game soon enough. Bosh and Chandler wouldnt have size issues, we would be extremely athletic and Bosh has a huge amount of growth left in his game. Brand hasnt gotten much better over the last couple of years. Brand is still solid, but Id take Bosh any day of the week. Younger, more atheletic, bigger, faster, and more skilled.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I don't think so. Elton Brand plays closer to the hoop. Bosh is a face up midrange big man. Deng doesn't have great range (yet), but we'd have terrible spacing with Bosh. I'm not sure Bosh will ever be as good as Brand is right now.


Where does Chandler play?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> I think Bosh is a better player right now. Bosh actually allows the spacing to be better. Chandler does almost all of his work on the O Glass. Brand would clog that laneup for Chandler.


The flip side of that is that Brand is a better offensive rebounder than Chandler, with both of them, we'd be collecting a ton of offensive rebounds. 




rlucas4257 said:


> Younger, more atheletic, bigger, faster, and more skilled.


Younger? Yes. 

More athletic? Yes, but Brand is an amazing athlete too, not far behind.

Bigger? No way. Brand is 270 with a 7'5 wingspan. Brand has a bigger base, is much much stronger, and has a higher standing reach. 

Faster? Yeah, but that falls in with athleticism. 

More skilled? I don't think so. Brand has a much better post game and a better touch, better handles too. He has better timing and positioning. Bosh gets by on athleticism mostly at this point, and he does have a good feel for the game, and a nice touch.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Mikedc said:


> Where does Chandler play?


A good deal of midrange and low block both, just depending on the other post player on the court.


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## girlygirl (Dec 6, 2003)

I'm sorry, but if you trade Hinrich for a big man, who besides Gordon provides perimeter shooting/scoring? Not Duhon, that's for sure. Who defends shooting guards? Again, no one, unless you think Eddie Basden can step in as a rookie and be as good a perimeter defender as Hinrich has already shown he is.

I don't understand why one innocent comment about Duhon running the team better than anyone on the team has stirred up let's trade Kirk/Ben ideas again. The Bulls have only two perimeter scorers -- Ben and Kirk. They only have one guy who has proven he can guard shooting guards -- Kirk. You trade either one of them, especially without getting a big guard who can both score, run the offense AND defend in return, you just weakened the Bulls significantly. 

Why not trade Duhon for a point guard who can run a team and play defense? That would make far more sense than getting rid of one of the only two proven scorers and the best defender the Bulls have on their roster.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> The flip side of that is that Brand is a better offensive rebounder than Chandler, with both of them, we'd be collecting a ton of offensive rebounds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I went back and looked at the stats. Talk about similar

Bosh 16.8ppg
8.9 rpg
1.40 blks
47.1% FG
76% FT% 
2.0 APG
.94 Spg
2.31 TO
81/81
6-10 PF/C
21 yrs old

Brand 20.00 ppg
9.5 rpg
2.6Apg
2.26 TO
50% FG
75 FT% 
2 blks
81/81
6-8
26 years old

Its so close that you have to go with Bosh based on the fact that he is 5 years younger. Plus he is more athletic, taller (thats what I meant by bigger, should give more detail), and has far more versatility in his game. If you want to mix and match with Chandler, you have to have someone who can step out and bring some range to the front line, Bosh does that. Brand is really just a load underneath.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Kirk & Sweetney for Al Jefferson and Pierce? :biggrin:


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

VincentVega said:


> Claxton sure isn't bad (he's pretty effective), but he's not on the same level as Hinrich (or Gordon). Claxton's a career 9 ppg/15% 3pt player, perfect for a backup role.


This has nothing to do with Speedy Claxton, but great avatar.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> Bosh 16.8ppg
> 8.9 rpg
> 1.40 blks
> 47.1% FG
> ...


I don't see it as being all that close. 

Brand: 
+ 3.2 points
+ 0.6 rebounds
+ 0.6 blocks
+ 0.6 assists
+ 3% field goal percentage

And Brand had his worst rebounding season of his career. He is usually up around 10-11. Brand is also the much better defender at this point, having the combination of size, strength and length to guard just about any power forward. 



rlucas4257 said:


> Its so close that you have to go with Bosh based on the fact that he is 5 years younger. Plus he is more athletic, taller (thats what I meant by bigger, should give more detail), and has far more versatility in his game. If you want to mix and match with Chandler, you have to have someone who can step out and bring some range to the front line, Bosh does that. Brand is really just a load underneath.


I accidently hit enter before I responded to this. Brand has a very good midrange shot all the way out to 10-12 feet. Bosh can shoot all the way out to the three point line, but I don't really find that valuable in a big man. 

Brand is a load down low, but with Bosh, Chandler and Deng, we wouldn't have one player playing on the low block. That would create horrible spacing for our guards, and everyone else really.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

rlucas4257 said:


> I went back and looked at the stats. Talk about similar
> 
> Bosh 16.8ppg
> 8.9 rpg
> ...



When Brand was 21 (his rookie year), he averaged more points, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals and had a better FG% in fewer minutes than Bosh did last year at age 21.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

rlucas4257 said:


> If you want to mix and match with Chandler, you have to have someone who can step out and bring some range to the front line, Bosh does that. Brand is really just a load underneath.


That's sort of what I was getting at earlier when asking about where Tyson fits in.

In addition to Brand's 5 year age difference, you have to figure in that he's had 3 seasons where he had significant injuries.

Also, since I'd bet my left nut we wouldn't take back Rose, any deal with Bosh will basically have him on his rookie contract, whereas any deal with Brand effectively takes us out of the salary cap game next summer.

Suppose we traded Gordon and Sweetney for Bosh. We'd still have huge cap space next year to go out and get a 2 guard to fill out our lineup. With Brand, that doesn't really work.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

VincentVega said:


> When Brand was 21 (his rookie year), he averaged more points, rebounds, assists, blocks, steals and had a better FG% in fewer minutes than Bosh did last year at age 21.


Good point.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Mikedc said:


> Suppose we traded Gordon and Sweetney for Bosh. We'd still have huge cap space next year to go out and get a 2 guard to fill out our lineup. With Brand, that doesn't really work.


That makes sense, I'd take Bosh on a rookie contract over Brand on his current contract. As of right now though, Brand is the better player quite easily, imo.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I don't see it as being all that close.
> 
> Brand:
> + 3.2 points
> ...



Bosh can score from anywhere on the floor, not just the low block, What hurts the spacing is having Brand and his 8-12 foot game clogging up the paint for Chandler. I dont know how you dont see that being close, only the 3.2 ppg really seperates them and that could easily be a function of the pace of the game the Clips play to Toronto. 

Depends on what you want in a player. It goes way back to Charles Oakley or Horace Grant. Some people are Oak fans, some people are Grant fans. I am a Grant fan. Why? Cause he was more atheletic, he was taller and longer, he could guard multiple positions, he could score facing the basket keeping the driving lanes open for the guards and he could be more versatile. Its the same thing here. Brand cant guard 2 spots, he can only guard 1. Bosh, an argument could be made, could guard 3. Bosh is longer. He is more versatile. He is more athletic. He is taller. You have the option to have him step out and hit shots on screen and roll that you dont have with Brand (its easier to rotate out to a 12 footer then a 22 footer). And Bosh is 5 years younger. Bosh might not be the better player today but he is certainly going to be the better player. And quite frankly Id take him today over Brand all things held equal. I just prefer the thoroughbred to the plodder.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Mikedc said:


> In addition to Brand's 5 year age difference, you have to figure in that he's had 3 seasons where he had significant injuries.


Over five years in the league, Brand has averaged 74.5 games per year. Over two years in the league, Bosh has averaged 78 games per year. That's a difference of 3.5 games with the sample size advantage going to Brand.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> That makes sense, I'd take Bosh on a rookie contract over Brand on his current contract. As of right now though, Brand is the better player quite easily, imo.



easily?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> Its the same thing here. Brand cant guard 2 spots, he can only guard 1. Bosh, an argument could be made, could guard 3.


Bosh can't guard centers, and can't guard small forwards. Especially not small forwards. 



rlucas4257 said:


> Bosh is longer.


Is he? Elton Brand is 6'8 with a 7'5 wingspan, so unless by longer, you mean taller, I doubt he is longer, because I think I remember Bosh have a relatively proportionate wingspan. 



rlucas4257 said:


> He is more versatile.


That can be argued. Brand has both the face up and back to the basket game, has the jumper that Bosh has, just not the range, but Brand has a much better handle and is also a better defender. 

According to 82games.com, both Bosh and Brand attempt the same percentage of their shots on jumpshots, but Brand hits a better eFG% (by like 1%, 40% to 41%). 

Brand can do everything Bosh does, except hit three pointers, but Brand is so good on the block that he doesn't need to be versatile all the time, only some of the time, because he is most effective dominating the block. 

This is like Duncan vs. Garnett, with Brand being Duncan and Bosh being Garnett, except I feel like Bosh is a much more poor version of Garnett than Brand is compared to Duncan.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> easily?


Yes, easily. He is the better more efficient scorer, rebounder, defender, shotblocker, and just as versatile. That makes it an easy decision for me.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

rlucas4257 said:


> Bosh can score from anywhere on the floor, not just the low block,


Not so fast. Last year it appears that Brand took more varied shots than did Bosh.

Brand = 62% jumpshots/30% close shots/6% dunks/2% tips
Bosh = 61% jumpshots/24% close shots/12% dunks/3% tips

Brand had more ppg from jumpshots (8.0) than did Bosh (6.2). Brand also has a higher eFG% than Bosh in every category of shot. Additionally, 1 out of every 5 "close" shots Bosh attempted last year was blocked.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

rlucas, this is no knock on Bosh either. I think Brand is a top 15 player in the league and severely underrated.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Bosh can't guard centers, and can't guard small forwards. Especially not small forwards.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bosh played some center last year. And he is quick enough to guard 3s. Brand cant guard centers or SFs. 

Bosh can put the ball on the floor and score out the 3 pt line. He is the one who gives you spacing, not Brand. Brand has a nice 12 foot and in game, no doubt about it, but he actually needs to be surrounded by shooters to be totally optimally used. Bosh doesnt need that, he can be versatile enough to do his damage at a lot of different spots on the floor. There is no versatility comparison here. 

Duncan and Garnett is a real bad example as Duncan is very versatile himself. And Bosh is no KG either. But this can be looked upon as Grant and Oakley all over again. You just have more options both offensively and defensively with Bosh, which is really important come playoff time. 

By length, i meant height. I made the same mistake twice. Sorry. But I can tell you one thing, Bosh can cover alot more space then Brand due to quickness and height though Ill never say anyone, outside of Amare, has better lift then Brand. Brand can get off the floor very quickly. But its close.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

VincentVega said:


> Not so fast. Last year it appears that Brand took more varied shots than did Bosh.
> 
> Brand = 62% jumpshots/30% close shots/6% dunks/2% tips
> Bosh = 61% jumpshots/24% close shots/12% dunks/3% tips
> ...



Whats the definition of jump shots? 10 feet out or 15 feet? I can tell you that I would be very surprised if Brand shot more 15 footers then Bosh. Im curious.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I think you underrate Brand's versatility. That's the basis of the Duncan and Garnett comparison. Brand is versatile, but tends to play in one spot more often because he is more effective at that than any other spot on the floor. That's Duncan. Bosh tends to roam the floor, has ability to play anywhere on the court, but doesn't dominate in any one spot. That's Garnett. Except Garnett is a better rebounder than Duncan, and Brand is a better rebounder than Bosh.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Yes, easily. He is the better more efficient scorer, rebounder, defender, shotblocker, and just as versatile. That makes it an easy decision for me.



Come on. He barely had more rebounds then Bosh and considering the pace of the game that LA and the west plays you have to think that he would score more points etc. Bosh is just more skilled. And he is 5 years younger. Brand is underrated, I totally agree. But he has proven one thing, you cant build a team around him and win. Now, can you do that with Bosh? Its to be determined, the next 2 years will be crucial. But I know Bosh has the more versatile game and the age on his side. Maybe, maybe not. But considering Bosh is 5 years younger, plays in the slower east, and to have basically the same stats, just shows that maybe Bosh is underrated too.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

Some months ago my Kirk trade was for Andre Igoudala straight up


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Bosh is more exciting than Brand.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

Also..Brand makes no sense 

We can keep our powder dry with our cap room and have Sweetney for $10M less and when he rounds into shape ( and he will ) he will be a Brandesque type of player ( say about 80% as productive )

I did like the Magliore and PJ Brown trade but I think cap relief ( in a couple of bigs ) and draft picks would be the order of the day there..no guard exchange required


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I think you underrate Brand's versatility. That's the basis of the Duncan and Garnett comparison. Brand is versatile, but tends to play in one spot more often because he is more effective at that than any other spot on the floor. That's Duncan. Bosh tends to roam the floor, has ability to play anywhere on the court, but doesn't dominate in any one spot. That's Garnett. Except Garnett is a better rebounder than Duncan, and Brand is a better rebounder than Bosh.



Can Brand dribble a basketball and take his guy off the dribble 20 feet away from the basket? Can Brand guard a center or a SF? Brand does what Brand does pretty damn good. But he is a 4, plain and simple. A damn good 4, but not one with a whole lot of range or versatility in his game. Bosh can step out and do somethings for you. He can create where Brand needs a pass. He can score on the block or out on the wing. He, like Brand, can finish the break. But one is 5 years younger, more athletic and has a more well rounded game. And the .6 rpg can simply be a function of the pace of the games. Put Bosh on last years Lakers and he probably gets a board more then Brand. Put Bosh on last years Warriors, particularly after Davis gets there and he is getting you 20s and 10s easily. Its a function of the pace. Neither guy has won much in the league. But Brands track record is pretty bad there. Its not on him, but you cant win with him being option 1. Bosh needs a year more to prove that in my mind. But I think if you want a more complete player, you go with Bosh. Just my opinion, and that isnt bad mouthing a very good player in Brand. Its just that Brand doesnt leave much for the imagination. His ceiling is very high, but its defined. Bosh is basically at Brands ceiling, as a 21 year old. He does leave alot for the imagination still. We will see.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Sweetney being 80% of Elton Brand would require him to be a 16 and 8 player who plays slightly above average defense. Is that realistic?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Sweetney being 80% of Elton Brand would require him to be a 16 and 8 player who plays slightly above average defense. Is that realistic?



No, maybe a 60% of Brand? or a 50% greater then Lonny Baxter.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

rlucas4257 said:


> Can Brand dribble a basketball and take his guy off the dribble 20 feet away from the basket? Can Brand guard a center or a SF? Brand does what Brand does pretty damn good. But he is a 4, plain and simple. A damn good 4, but not one with a whole lot of range or versatility in his game. Bosh can step out and do somethings for you. He can create where Brand needs a pass. He can score on the block or out on the wing. He, like Brand, can finish the break. But one is 5 years younger, more athletic and has a more well rounded game. And the .6 rpg can simply be a function of the pace of the games. Put Bosh on last years Lakers and he probably gets a board more then Brand. Put Bosh on last years Warriors, particularly after Davis gets there and he is getting you 20s and 10s easily. Its a function of the pace. Neither guy has won much in the league. But Brands track record is pretty bad there. Its not on him, but you cant win with him being option 1. Bosh needs a year more to prove that in my mind. But I think if you want a more complete player, you go with Bosh. Just my opinion, and that isnt bad mouthing a very good player in Brand. Its just that Brand doesnt leave much for the imagination. His ceiling is very high, but its defined. Bosh is basically at Brands ceiling, as a 21 year old. He does leave alot for the imagination still. We will see.


I simply don't agree with your pace arguments, or that Brand can't create for himself. I also think Brand is the better rebounder regardless of the environment. Put Brand on the Raptors and he is still a better rebounder. He is longer and has a bigger base, plus is 270 all muscle and very athletic. That's why he is the better rebounder. Bosh is still too skinny, which is why he isn't as good of a rebounder as Brand. 

Bosh's versatility is overrated and Brand's versatility is underrated. Bosh can shoot three pointers better than Brand, but Brand does literally everything else better, in my opinion. Better handles, better post game, face up game, rebounder, shotblocker, defender, etc. That makes Brand the more complete, bigger impact player.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> You can't be serious.





VincentVega said:


> Claxton sure isn't bad (he's pretty effective), but he's not on the same level as Hinrich (or Gordon). Claxton's a career 9 ppg/15% 3pt player, perfect for a backup role.



The stats like PER and EFF / min say they are around the same, but yah, for this team especially, I'd rather have Hinrich as well. Claxton is better at getting to the line, but he's not going to be able to guard the opposing 2 guard or shoot from the outside like Hinrich, I agree.

But, priority #1 in my book right now is to get a solid big man to play alongside Chandler. One that can rebound and score in the post. Perhaps Sweetney can be the main guy for this, but I have my doubts. 

We would not be able to make the trade I proposed until December anyway so it would give the Bulls time to see if Maglorie is back to his old self since he was not last year when he came back from his injury. The guy can rebound and score in the paint and plays solid D. He's a top center when healthy. 

We have a gaping hole in the paint on this team right now IMO, and I'd rather go into the off-season next year needing to acquire a starter-level 2 guard than a center. This season is a wash from a winning the title perspective. 

Going forward, I think the Bulls would look pretty solid with Chandler / Maglorie / Sweetney at the 4/5. Get one or two more solid years from PJ/Othella. 3 is set. 1 would be set with Duhon and Claxton. 

Gordon either would have to step up or we need to MLE a solid 2 guard. I mean, jeez, we burned a #3 pick on Gordon, you would think that eventually he'd be a 30-35 a nite guy.

I'd make the trade with Gordon as well. I’d rather make the trade with Gordon actually.

Perhaps I’m overestimating this teams need for help in the paint.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Its amazing watching you guys overrate players that we don't have a prayer of even acquiring.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Sweetney being 80% of Elton Brand would require him to be a 16 and 8 player who plays slightly above average defense. Is that realistic?


IMO Yes

Judging from recent comments as to his "tremendous upside" Coach Skiles thinks so too

I actually have him projected at 17 and 8 in 30 minutes from games post Christmas/New Years

Skiles is not prone to hyperbole and doesn't mince words. 

It is clear that they are going to commit themselves to Sweetney and Sweetney is the type of guy (so it seems) who will respond if he has direct attention

It will be a wait to the 2nd half of the season however - that's how long it will take to get properly conditioned and acclimitated to our system

Defence will never be his forte but I expect him to have the same effect ( at a minimum ) to what Eddy Curry had in our team defensive schemes in the 2nd half of last season when his conditioning kicked in too

Everyone can say what they like but Curry pulled a fast one coming into training camp last year

Appearances can be deceiving..he wasn't properly conditioned 

Carb crashing and caffeine based diaretics can be deceiving


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

BTW..Toronto would have to be crazed to deal Chris Bosh

It would be akin to the Bobcats dealing Okafor..the Magic dealing Howard...etc etc 

He's in that kind of young rookie contract company

Raps have just got to be patient 

They have some nice core pieces in Bosh , Villanueva ( who I do believe is going to kick arse , eventually , in the pros ) and Joey Graham . 

Villanueva and Graham are unproven but I do like them both 

Calderon is a question mark but Mike James is a nice solid vet point that can keep it steady and not rock the boat

Petersen is still young enough to hang around and gives them a big backcourt swing player 

Aaron Williams and Eric Williams are quality vets that will help

Once they are out from Jalen Rose's contract and with a couple more lottery picks to add to the mix they will be in fair shape in around 2 - 3 seasons for now 

They just got to suck it up

Center / muscle upfront is where they are weak and where they need to address help..likely through the draft and low cost vet free agency

Given that Bosh has covered Center for them but will get knocked to the crapper playing there long term ..not only will they not deal him..they certainly not dealing him without improving size and studliness that they get back

Kirk or Ben + a pick is not going to get it done .

Not in a zillion years


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## Soulful Sides (Oct 10, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Sweetney being 80% of Elton Brand would require him to be a 16 and 8 player who plays slightly above average defense. Is that realistic?


Not to change the subject, but Eddy Curry was a 16 and 5 player last year. 

Is Curry < Brand? 

Center and Power Forward are not that different, and if I remember right, Brand was moved for Tyson because it was feared that he and Eddy couldn't play together because of the similarity in their games.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

Soulful Sides said:


> Not to change the subject, but Eddy Curry was a 16 and 5 player last year.
> 
> Is Curry < Brand?
> 
> Center and Power Forward are not that different, and if I remember right, Brand was moved for Tyson because it was feared that he and Eddy couldn't play together because of the similarity in their games.



IMO Yes

I would have traded Curry for Brand without blinking


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

The Krakken said:


> Its amazing watching you guys overrate players that we don't have a prayer of even acquiring.


yes, but are they overrated because we cant acquire them or can we not acquire them because we overrate them 

:thinking:


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Soulful Sides said:


> Not to change the subject, but Eddy Curry was a 16 and 5 player last year.


And a way below average defender, as opposed to Brand being way above average. Brand is a 20-10 player, one of the best shotblockers in the league, and a great defender. 



Soulful Sides said:


> Is Curry < Brand?


Eddy Curry will never be as good as Elton Brand.


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## Deke (Jul 27, 2005)

i wouldnt be agaist trading kirk, but it should be around deadlien so we could actually get some worth for him. he could really be a good trade for a some size and some offensive skills. maybe a carlos boozer or kanyan martin. i also wouldnt be agaist trading him for mutombo as long as we get several first round draft picks for the future.


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## benfica (Jul 17, 2002)

You guys are dumb, kirk is the reason you now have a playoff team. He is a winner and key cog piece of the team.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> And a way below average defender, as opposed to Brand being way above average. Brand is a 20-10 player, one of the best shotblockers in the league, and a great defender.


Why doesn't Brand ever get a vote to the All-Defensive team if he is so great? Chandler got three votes last year. Heck, even Noch got one.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Why don't we trade Kirk?


simply because he is the bulls scottie pippen (of the 90's)

someone else may take the "important shots " but he is the team's most irreplacable player at the moment.

kirk play essentially back up pg, and depending on the game the point guard in the 4th quarter.

kirk is the best man to man defender on the team.

kirk is the really the only guy proven to be a good match with the team's resident superstar Ben Gordon (although i believe jermaine jackson would tandem very effective with gordon too ...no one around here agrees with me about that yet though)

kirk is a versatile offensive weapon and is very unselfish, most teams simply dont have a 2 guard who can play point guard either due to the 2's selfish streaks or lack of ability to distribute effectively. I as much as anyone can take a critical look at kirk's ability to distribute , and really i think usually he is overrated in that regard by alot of bulls fans (until chris duhon showed people what a real point guard looks like , most around here couldn't be shook from the idea that kirk was the next john stockton) its a rare thing that that player is of starter's quality in the nba ,there a significant # of those playing back up though like reece gaines boris diaw and john salmons.

and probably the strongest reason is that kirk is the team's identity , not just from a marketing standpoint either , the team is built around hinrich's stregnths , he is the team's all around best player also .

I would if i had to make choice trade anyone else with the exception of tyson chandler , and that easily includes ben gordon , who until proven different is not a starter on any team in the nba who doesn't have a big point guard who can guard both guard spots ...and there are only 3 such teams in the nba ( the bulls with kirk , the clippers with shaun livingston, whom i still say the bulls should have taken instead of ben and the t'wolves with jaric) and probably isn't a starter on the bulls yet by way of personal preference of scott skiles.


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## BullDurf (Feb 11, 2003)

Hey Grinch where is your sig from, its funny as hell?


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## Deke (Jul 27, 2005)

benfica said:


> You guys are dumb, kirk is the reason you now have a playoff team. He is a winner and key cog piece of the team.


really? i always thought it was the 04-05 rookie season class? i remember us constantly underachieving every year up until that rookie class also.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> really? i always thought it was the 04-05 rookie season class? i remember us constantly underachieving every year up until that rookie class also.


 :clap:


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

BullDurf said:


> Hey Grinch where is your sig from, its funny as hell?


thanks , its a quote from, The Grinch Who Sole Christmas with Jim carrey


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