# KC: Unwilling to part with Deng, Bulls stand pat



## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...2bulls,1,7559925.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Might be a day we remember for a long time. Deng still has superstar potential, IMHO.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

I personally think Deng's value will never be higher. He's still on a rookie contract with a year to go.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

And I've wanted to know is where are they standing Pat?


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

> Bulls general manager John Paxson refused to include Luol Deng in any combination of a trade for Pau Gasol. Memphis was adamant that Deng be involved in any package for Gasol.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

:nonono:


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## WestHighHawk (Jun 28, 2003)

> And Houston didn't show much interest in Michael Sweetney, who was being dangled for Wells.


I'm sorry, but the mental image of Sweets dangling just made me giggle :rofl:

And don't come after me with the pitchforks and kitchen knives, but I'm glad we are standing firm. Most of our guys are just too good to give up. Maybe management has finally realized this after EC and TC blew up after they were traded. Not saying I wanted either to stay.

What the heck...count me in as a fence sitter.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

p.p.p.p.p.potential!?!??!!?

Its a shame that a deal could not get done.

Deng for Gasol was a trade that needed to be made, IMO.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

i'm just glad i won't have to suffer through any "luol deng and ben gordon update" threads......:yay:


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> p.p.p.p.p.potential!?!??!!?
> 
> Its a shame that a deal could not get done.
> 
> Deng for Gasol was a trade that needed to get made, IMO.


I agree. Today is the dark day in Paxson's reign. 

This is a blunder from which the team may never recover. 

Certainly I hope to be wrong. For all practical purposes, Paxson has declared Deng to be virtually untouchable, and I don't think he is.

He's my boo though. So I look forward to watching him in the black and red.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Dp


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

Today reminded me of prom night. So much anticipation, so many what ifs... And none of it came to fruition.


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## LuCane (Dec 9, 2002)

Obviously, this is different than the rumors of him not wanting to part with Nocioni, which would have been incomprehensible.

I honestly just don't understand this, though...

Deng, PJ, and Filler would have gotten us Gasol?

With an upcoming draft that features potential late lotto picks like Corey Brewer, Thaddeus Young, et al, we think we LOSE in gaining a 7' 26 year old All-star b/c we have to give up a young piece?

This is very frustrating.


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## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! (Jun 10, 2003)

SecretAgentGuy said:


> Today reminded me of prom night. So much anticipation, so many what ifs... And none of it came to fruition.


Now this is classic!!! At least Pax wasn't found in his office, fumbling around awkwardly and nervously, not sure where things go...


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

Ok, so supposedly the Griz were adamant that Deng be included in any deal.

They were also supposedly demanding 2 of the core 4. 

So, from what we know, it's not that Pax wouldn't trade Deng, it's that he wouldn't trade Deng *and* Gordon/Hinrich/Noc *and* PJ's expiring contract and potentially a draft pick.

I would also find it hard to believe that the Grizz would have been interested in a Deng/Noc combination in a trade.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

To quote Yogi Berra :
"When you come to a fork in the road, take it!"

I think young Paxson just escaped the Jedi mind tricks of the Logo. 
West was the GM who was under the gun to do a trade, not Pax.
Yet he demanded not only a "comparable" player or two, but an expiring contract and draft picks as well.
Most GMs in the same circumstance would admit that they can't get "comparable" value + salary relief + draft picks. But not West.

Gasol will be back on the market again in the summer -- at a reduced price set by an new GM. If the Bulls really want him, they can have him for Hinrich and a second rounder.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

I have to admit, after Wade went down, I thought that Paxson might me a bit more eager to make a move and go for Gasol. He didn't, and Deng is a plausible reason why not to.

However, to not get anything for all of these expiring contracts is very disappointing. 

I am also surprised because the Knicks are only 3 games out of a playoff spot and with Miami ready for collapse and 3 games ahead of NY, a NYK lottery pick is not as guaranteed as it once was.

I'm glad we didn't trade Deng. He's my favorite Current Bull, but I am pissed that we play 3 on 5 every night.

I think the PJ brown era must end and we need to see Nocioni and TT play heavy PF minutes the rest of the season.

It's been a down stretch for my Bull hopes since the end of last season - Grabing TT over Roy and Aldridge, Signing Wallace (would've passed and grabbed Gooden), Trading away PJ for nothing more than salary dump, not trading any of our expiring contracts, Still he kept Deng.......So I guess I got atleast one positive. 

Here's to hoping the team makes me forget about a 7 footer with multiple skills.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

double post


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> Gasol will be back on the market again in the summer -- at a reduced price set by an new GM. If the Bulls really want him, they can have him for Hinrich and a second rounder.


which is about what he's worth, imo.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Nah, I don't think Pax was willing to deal Deng PERIOD, let alone Deng + another core member.

G Hinrich
G Gordon / Sefolosha
F Deng / Nocioni
F Thomas
C

NY's pick & two 2nd Rounders.

= Future of the Chicago Bulls. NY's pick may or maynot be a lotto selection so there's no point in listing it with the team, as of now. I believe they will go on a strong run towards the end of the season (NY, that is).

Suddenly, Aldridge & Chandler made much more sense. They're pretty much a younger, cheaper version of Rasheed & Ben.

Don't mean to bash Pax, but he's been making alot of missteps since last offseason.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

LuCane said:


> Obviously, this is different than the rumors of him not wanting to part with Nocioni, which would have been incomprehensible.



Actually, its not.

Paxson could have not wanted to part with any of the core 4, which is was KC and Schuster clearly said on the radio yesterday and still, of course, not want to trade Deng for Gasol. 

Whether West would have been willing to trade Gasol for Nocioni, the pick, etc is a whole other story….


Both KC and Schuster were directly asked yesterday if Paxson would trade Nocioni, the pick and 2 exp deals for Gasol and both said they didn't think so.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

chifaninca said:


> However, to not get anything for all of these expiring contracts is very disappointing.





> I'm glad we didn't trade Deng. He's my favorite Current Bull, but I am pissed that we play 3 on 5 every night.


I think this is a pretty reasonable assessment. I'm glad Pax didn't overpay for Gasol, but I wish he would have got _something_ for the expiring contracts.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

The Truth said:


> They were also supposedly demanding 2 of the core 4.


link?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

BULLHITTER said:


> which is about what he's worth, imo.


staggering, imo.


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## Cyanobacteria (Jun 25, 2002)

OK, so let's get this straight for all concerned...

If you like Pax, the deal that didn't get done was Lu + Ben/Kirk/Noc + PJ + NY pick
If you don't like Pax the deal that didn't get done was Lu + PJ

as you were...


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> p.p.p.p.p.potential!?!??!!?
> 
> Its a shame that a deal could not get done.
> 
> Deng for Gasol was a trade that needed to be made, IMO.


What? Potentially Deng will be able to add a point or two of scoring and a rebound or two to his tally by the time he is Gasol's age?

What a giant gamble.


Sheesh.


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## blinkofaneye (Mar 3, 2004)

I love Luol Deng and I didn't want to see him go, but I would have done that trade. Now we can count on our jump shooting drive and kick offense for the future of the Bulls. They refused to even get any servicable inside scorer, because they would have to pay. They basically got rid of Tyson Chandler for nothing.

I am seriously considering getting rid of my season tickets next year. I am a huge fan, and am so disheartened by Pax's moves the past 2 years. This was his chance to salvage giving away 2 young big men, and giving our franchise our inside scoring. It's going to take time to get over this one.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

My predictions have been pretty off so far this season (besides the drafting of TT). But I'll try one more.

Chicago will re-sign Deng & Gordon to 5 year contracts. Chicago will S&T Andres Nocioni & NY's pick for a legit PF.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Cyanobacteria said:


> OK, so let's get this straight for all concerned...
> 
> If you like Pax, the deal that didn't get done was Lu + Ben/Kirk/Noc + PJ + NY pick
> If you don't like Pax the deal that didn't get done was Lu + PJ
> ...


We might never know this for sure. We heard a lot of different variations the past few weeks.


HOWEVER, the post-deadline KC piece can reasonably be interpreted as Pax saying "Deng is off-limits." And that's overly conservative IMO. Big time. I say this as one of Deng's biggest fans. 

I would have to know what the total package Memphis wanted was before I head towards Berto with the pitchfork, but I think Pax made a dreadful mistake if he was simply unwilling to deal Deng in any sense.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

Gasol is worth Kirk and a 2nd rounder? No chance in hell, this summer he'll fetch twice that. Our chance to nab Gasol expired today at 3 PM EST. Gasol won't go in a sign and trade for Nocioni and Uncle Jerry isn't going to have the big contracts of Wallace, Deng, Gordon, Kirk and Gasol on board. This is Pax saying his roster is set and we're hoping on the Knicks pick to get us a big man.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> What? Potentially Deng will be able to add a point or two of scoring and a rebound or two to his tally by the time he is Gasol's age?
> 
> What a giant gamble.
> 
> ...


LOL.

Yah, maybe Deng will grow to be 7 feet tall and we can play him at center.

Hinrich
Gordon
KNICKS PICK
TT
Deng

Sweet!!!!


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## BeZerker2008 (Jun 29, 2006)

I also wish Pax could have done something at least minor to try and help this team down the stretch. I wouldn't have minded the Bonzi wells experiment if not for the remainder of this season, getting absolutely nothing done is sad. 

Sure the Bulls played well their last game but it was against Atlanta. The true test will be in Cleveland & Detroit to see if paxson should have done something to help this team. It will also see if this team is going to progress as a team or basically be the same team it was in the 1st half.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> link?


Really? The article about 2 of the core 4 must have been posted 10 times on the board in the last couple weeks.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

I must say, I am dissapointed. Its not every day a team passes on a skills 7-0 player that answers a glaring need for this team. I am glad we keep deng and gordon. Both are important to this team. But we should have made some type of move to address our weakness. Unless TT makes a run towards stardom, this team does not contend this season. 

If we are waiting for KG, then we may be waiting forever.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Cyanobacteria said:


> OK, so let's get this straight for all concerned...
> 
> If you like Pax, the deal that didn't get done was Lu + Ben/Kirk/Noc + PJ + NY pick
> If you don't like Pax the deal that didn't get done was Lu + PJ
> ...


Lol. That about sums it up.

If I had to guess, the deal that didn't get done was Lu + PJ + NY pick or Tyrus.

But it's speculation on all of our parts. It does seem clear though that Lu was the sticking point.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Really? The article about 2 of the core 4 must have been posted 10 times on the board in the last couple weeks.


Oh, that article was a couple weeks old?

I guess I'll dig around on some old threads to see if I can find it and refresh my memory.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> link?


Ronald Tillery, Grizzlies Beat Writer, Memphis Commercial Appeal



> Tip-in: Griz president Jerry West still is holding out for at least two players from the Chicago Bulls' core of Luol Deng, Ben Gordon, Kirk Hinrich and Andres Nocioni if a trade involving Gasol is to happen, according to team insiders.


http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/grizzlies/article/0,1426,MCA_475_5366809,00.html


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Oh, that article was a couple weeks old?


Try one day.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

ViciousFlogging said:


> We might never know this for sure. We heard a lot of different variations the past few weeks.
> 
> 
> HOWEVER, the post-deadline KC piece can reasonably be interpreted as Pax saying "Deng is off-limits." And that's overly conservative IMO. Big time. I say this as one of Deng's biggest fans.
> ...



..._or_ Gordon, _or_ Nocioni, _or_ Kirk (YES! i said my boo!)...and i say this as a huge fan of Deng as well. i was hoping West would've been interested in Gordon but i guess he wasn't. 

this _will we/won't we please pax bring pau to chicago rollercoaster ride_ (and i believe we all got on it voluntarily) has been draining. We've heard nothing but "we need a low post presence" out of Pax for MONTHS, and now this vast nothingness of nothing? 

color me dissapointed. 

i need a drink.


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## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! (Jun 10, 2003)

Deng is my favorite Bull, so a part of is glad that he didn't get dealt. That said, on the subject of acquiring "serviceable inside scoring", weren't the 91-93 AND 96-98 Bulls just utterly devastated and unable to cope due to, ahem, a serious lack of "serviceable inside scoring" by the three headed monster, good for tough D, boards and 15 fouls.

And neither Horace nor Dennis possessed "McKale like inside acumen". 

On the other hand, MJ and Pip were once in a lifetime, weren't they? We'll never see the likes of them ever again, most likely.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

The Truth said:


> Try one day.


Thanks for the link.

Wow, no mention of the Knicks pick in that one.

Seems like a pretty good deal for the Bulls, as long as the deal is not Deng and Gordon.

But, Paxson wasn't willing to part with any of the "core 4"... so it does not really matter. All this speculation analyzing what West wanted was a waste of time once that became apparent.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

The Truth said:


> Ronald Tillery, Grizzlies Beat Writer, Memphis Commercial Appeal
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/grizzlies/article/0,1426,MCA_475_5366809,00.html


Yea. But what the hell does a local beat writer know about his/her local team? (Or something like that)

This place can be a blast sometimes!


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Cyanobacteria said:


> OK, so let's get this straight for all concerned...
> 
> If you like Pax, the deal that didn't get done was Lu + Ben/Kirk/Noc + PJ + NY pick
> If you don't like Pax the deal that didn't get done was Lu + PJ
> ...


No the deal was deng, Brown, NY pick. West wanted Deng, Pax refused to deal him.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

It seems to me that the only relevant thing we know is that Deng was off limits. That fact makes speculating over what West would have taken along with Deng pretty irrelevant. Since Deng was never on the table, it was never even a point for negotiation.

I mean, how can they get to Deng+pick or Deng+Noc+pick or Deng+crunchy peanut butter is the deal if they can't even get to Deng as the principle.

For my part, I wouldn't have blinked hat Deng and Nocioni as 2 of the core. We've got several options, present and future, for filling in the 3 spot pretty nicely, even with both of them gone. Not perfect options, of course, but options.

On the other hand, we've got next to zero options for adding a 26 year old 7 footer who scores 20 and 10 and fits well next to Ben Wallace.

When push comes to shove, some options beats no options all the time.


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## ballerkingn (Nov 17, 2006)

Gasol Gasol Gasol,he not the only player we could have gotten IMO.We should have taken ely from the bobcat's or well's from the rocket's and called it a day.I wouldn't have really have traded deng myself because of the upside and age,but we don't need gasol that bad we just need someone who can command a double team and ely and well's can and both can get us easy basket's in the paint and provide us with something we need.Again for pax's not to do anything show he's doesn't know much about the nba land scape except for the top 10 or 15 players in the league.O yeah hakim warrick would have been a nice addition too,let's face it pax's isnt good at trades and never will be and should be a scout and not a GM,because a gm has to know more then just college player's and show up only at draft time.Because i bet if half the GM's in the league had our roster they would have found a move or 2 to improve us without hindering our future,by trading away deng or ben.Pax's i lost all respect for you today as a GM.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

ViciousFlogging said:


> HOWEVER, the post-deadline KC piece can reasonably be interpreted as Pax saying "Deng is off-limits." And that's overly conservative IMO. Big time. I say this as one of Deng's biggest fans.



I think it means that Pax was saying "Deng is off-limits" *for Gasol*. Obviously, it's not stating Luol is off-limits for everyone isn't what's going on here.

Frankly, I would have been fine with the Luol for Gasol swap. But I'm also fine without it. I think that means it was a reasonably fair trade.

How does the PF/C issue get solved now? I guess we'll have to find that one out next year.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Just to be clear, the very same person who wrote the article linked to in the 1st post said that Paxson was unwilling to trade ANY of the "core 4" yesterday and that he didn't think Paxson would be interested in Nocioni, Knicks pick and 2 exp deals for Gasol.


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## Bulldozer (Jul 11, 2006)

truebluefan said:


> If we are waiting for KG, then we may be waiting forever.


don't kill the dream dude. So we blew our first year with geriatric Wallace w/ his bones creaking into osteoperosis everyday... we still have the offseason. After a bitter playoff exit, I believe something will go down in da summatime. In the meantime, let's enjoy the Bulls inconsistent play in the anemic eastern confernce :yay:


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Just to be clear, the very same person who wrote this article said that Paxson was unwilling to trade ANY of the "core 4" yesterday and that he didn't think Paxson would be interested in*Nocioni, Knicks pick and 2 exp deals for Gasol.*


If _that_ is the case, not only should Paxson be fired, but he should be locked up.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> No the deal was deng, Brown, NY pick. West wanted Deng, Pax refused to deal him.


Gee. Maybe there was a reason why two GM's seem to covet the same guy. Maybe, I dunno now - I'm kinda reaching here - he's a damn good player right now and an even better prospect down the road. Those of you clamouring for Paxson's head for not dealing Deng, ask yourself why West was so adamant in getting Deng? Then click on the ESPN update thread 'cause it takes two to tango.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> LOL.
> 
> Yah, maybe Deng will grow to be 7 feet tall and we can play him at center.
> 
> ...



What a terrible argument. Come on. There is no possible way to acquire a PF or C next year. Sure thing. Oh, and Ben Wallace suddenly isn't on our team anymore. Or Nocioni. Super.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Seems like it would make a ton of sense to me that they wanted one of Gordon or Hinrich. Their weakest position is at PG, where they might be the worst team in the league (except probably Boston or Atlanta). Hinrich would be the perfect fit; Gordon would do well also. But if they wanted another player, probaby one of Deng or Noch, with West gunning for Deng, that would make sense for value for Gasol.

So in my head, this is what the offer might have been: Deng + one of Hinrich/Gordon for Gasol. And while it's not quite positive what Pax would have wanted in terms of giving up Kirk or Ben, it didn't matter because Deng was the non-negotiable.

Still, forwards they have many of. Gay, Warrick, Alex Johnson, Cardinal, Mike Miller, Dahntay Jones. SG, I guess Mike Miller as the tall G/F, but at point guard... Atkins or Mighty Mouse? That's pretty nasty, even though Atkins is having a nice little season. Arguably, Duhon is an upgrade over those guys; Hinrich or Gordon would be no-brainers. I think that while the deal-breaker was Deng, the principal was probably someone who could man the point.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

fl_flash said:


> Gee. Maybe there was a reason why two GM's seem to covet the same guy. Maybe, I dunno now - I'm kinda reaching here - he's a damn good player right now and an even better prospect down the road. Those of you clamouring for Paxson's head for not dealing Deng, ask yourself why West was so adamant in getting Deng? Then click on the ESPN update thread 'cause it takes two to tango.


Also, I found it interesting this morning on NBA radio that the national broadcasters thought West was entirely unreasonable in demanding Deng.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

MikeDC said:


> It seems to me that the only relevant thing we know is that Deng was off limits. That fact makes speculating over what West would have taken along with Deng pretty irrelevant. Since Deng was never on the table, it was never even a point for negotiation.


And that Gordon was off limits (we knew this a week or so ago though).

I wish Paxson could have got it done with Thabo, Tyrus, PJ, and the pick.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> What a terrible argument. Come on. There is no possible way to acquire a PF or C next year. Sure thing. Oh, and Ben Wallace suddenly isn't on our team anymore. Or Nocioni. Super.


Nocioni isn't a PF, unless we're married to small-ball, which we will be given our roster.

In case you have not been watching, Ben Wallace is quickly becoming a very average player. 

Let’s hope Skiles can develop Tyrus, the Knicks start losing more and the lotto balls bounce our way.


Hinrich
Gordon
Nocioni / KNICKS PICK
TT
Deng

Lebron is trembling.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> I wish Paxson could have got it done with Thabo, Tyrus, PJ, and the pick.


Haha, I think we all pretty much wish that!


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> Nocioni isn't a PF, unless we're married to small-ball, which we will be given our roster.
> 
> In case you have not been watching, Ben Wallace is quickly becoming a very average player.
> 
> ...



So your assertion is that Ben Wallace won't start next year? 

Give me a break, give me a break, break me off a piece of that Kit Kat Bar.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> It seems to me that the only relevant thing we know is that Deng was off limits. That fact makes speculating over what West would have taken along with Deng pretty irrelevant. Since Deng was never on the table, it was never even a point for negotiation.
> 
> I mean, how can they get to Deng+pick or Deng+Noc+pick or Deng+crunchy peanut butter is the deal if they can't even get to Deng as the principle.
> 
> ...


Your position is not entirely genuine. From what I can gather Paxson didn't want to move Deng and West was insisting on getting Deng. I'm guessing Pax offered other combinations and West simply refused. If so, what is Pax supposed to do? Indications were that talks never really heated up much all this time. Seems pretty reasonable to assume that Deng was the guy West wanted all along (and rightly so) and the guy Pax wasn't willing to deal (again - rightly so).

A lot of folks pissing and moaning (not you Mike) over a deal that appears to have had very little chance of happening because Pax wasn't going to move Deng and West would take no one else. Call it a day and move on.


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## Bulldozer (Jul 11, 2006)

Showtyme said:


> Seems like it would make a ton of sense to me that they wanted one of Gordon or Hinrich. Their weakest position is at PG, where they might be the worst team in the league (except probably Boston or Atlanta). Hinrich would be the perfect fit; Gordon would do well also. But if they wanted another player, probaby one of Deng or Noch, with West gunning for Deng, that would make sense for value for Gasol.
> 
> So in my head, this is what the offer might have been: Deng + one of Hinrich/Gordon for Gasol. And while it's not quite positive what Pax would have wanted in terms of giving up Kirk or Ben, it didn't matter because Deng was the non-negotiable.
> 
> Still, forwards they have many of. Gay, Warrick, Alex Johnson, Cardinal, Mike Miller, Dahntay Jones. SG, I guess Mike Miller as the tall G/F, but at point guard... Atkins or Mighty Mouse? That's pretty nasty, even though Atkins is having a nice little season. Arguably, Duhon is an upgrade over those guys; Hinrich or Gordon would be no-brainers. I think that while the deal-breaker was Deng, the principal was probably someone who could man the point.



far as Im concerned, screw the pseudo Vancouverian Memphis Grizzlies and I hope they rot slow. West is a prideful, arrogant ignoramus and I hope he hershey squirted himself for sitting on his hands like that. I hope he gets a worse deal (for Gasol) down the line than what the Bulls offered, and may they move to another city to run away from their shame. I hate those damn expansion teams anyway, screw them. may the same thing happen to the other crack canadian team. Raptors are extinct anyway :biggrin:


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> link?


Haha. C'mon. You post on this board daily. You want a link to an article claiming West was asking for two members of the "big four"? There were about four posted here this week. I know Sam Smith and Vecsey both reported it.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

The Truth said:


> Ok, so supposedly the Griz were adamant that Deng be included in any deal.
> 
> They were also supposedly demanding 2 of the core 4.
> 
> ...


Good point. I don't necessarily interpret this as Pax turning down Deng and P.J. for Gasol - no one including K.C. has reported that. It seems unlikely to me that West would do a deal for less than two or three assets since GMs seem to like quantity in addition to quality when moving a star player. I'd guess that the NY pick, Tyrus, or Noc was included. If not that then maybe something like Thabo and a future first rounder.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> There is no possible way to acquire a PF or C next year.


Of course there is -- but instead of that $9 million ballast P.J.'s expiring contract provided, start plugging in names like Gordon. Or Hinrich. Or Thomas. Or even the saintly Deng (oh, no).

We'll probably hang on to Durant, though.

God, I hope P.J. Americanizes the hell out of Tyrus Thomas over the next sixty days.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> But, Paxson wasn't willing to part with any of the "core 4"... so it does not really matter. All this speculation analyzing what West wanted was a waste of time once that became apparent.


So yesterday K.C.'s report was the be all end all and then today when he writes an article strongly implying that Deng was the one guy Pax didn't want to give up, his day old claim is more accurate?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

fl_flash said:


> Your position is not entirely genuine. From what I can gather Paxson didn't want to move Deng and West was insisting on getting Deng. I'm guessing Pax offered other combinations and West simply refused. If so, what is Pax supposed to do? Indications were that talks never really heated up much all this time. Seems pretty reasonable to assume that Deng was the guy West wanted all along (and rightly so) and the guy Pax wasn't willing to deal (again - rightly so).
> 
> A lot of folks pissing and moaning (not you Mike) over a deal that appears to have had very little chance of happening because Pax wasn't going to move Deng and West would take no one else. Call it a day and move on.


Not sure what you mean by "genuine". What Pax was supposed to do was call up this morning and make a pitch again. When West insisted on Deng, Pax should have offered him.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that a trade might not have gone through even after that, but the fact they never got that far is, IMO, a mistake on Pax's part. You like Deng more and Gasol less than me, I spose- fair enough. But from what I can see, he should have been offered.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> I must say, I am dissapointed. Its not every day a team passes on a skills 7-0 player that answers a glaring need for this team. I am glad we keep deng and gordon. Both are important to this team. But we should have made some type of move to address our weakness. Unless TT makes a run towards stardom, this team does not contend this season.
> 
> If we are waiting for KG, then we may be waiting forever.


Look at KG's age and get back to me on that


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> So yesterday K.C.'s report was the be all end all and then today when he writes an article strongly implying that Deng was the one guy Pax didn't want to give up, his day old claim is more accurate?


I don't see any such strong implication.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> So your assertion is that Ben Wallace won't start next year?
> 
> Give me a break, give me a break, break me off a piece of that Kit Kat Bar.


Oh, no, I'm thinking 2-3 years out at this point.

Wallace will still be on the team. Perhaps he'll start. He'll probably be worse than the Ben Wallace we have right now. (ugh)

If you would like to include a likely very average player in your long term projections on how the Bulls win the NBA Title, feel free.

Then again, maybe the lotto balls will bounce right or we'll get some more "found money."


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> Of course there is -- but instead of that $9 million ballast P.J.'s expiring contract provided, start plugging in names like Gordon. Or Hinrich. Or Thomas. Or even the saintly Deng (oh, no).
> 
> We'll probably hang on to Durant, though.
> 
> God, I hope P.J. Americanizes the hell out of Tyrus Thomas over the next sixty days.


Oh, I'm with you on all of this. I'm pissed Pax didn't turn the expiring contracts into SOMETHING at the deadline. However, I'm not particularly upset that he did not make the Luol + ? for Gasol swap.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> So yesterday K.C.'s report was the be all end all and then today when he writes an article *strongly implying that Deng was the one guy Pax didn't want to give up*, his day old claim is more accurate?



There was no strong implication like that.

KC wrote that West wanted Deng and Paxson didn't want to give Deng up.

There was no mention of any other Bulls players.

You are inventing things. The question is why?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Oh, I'm with you on all of this. I'm pissed Pax didn't turn the expiring contracts into SOMETHING at the deadline. However, I'm not particularly upset that he did not make the Luol + ? for Gasol swap.


So some meaningless deal like exp contracts for Reef not going down is something to be pissed about but passing up our best chance on an all-star quality PF/C for the next 4-6 years isn't?


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

JeremyB0001 said:


> So yesterday K.C.'s report was the be all end all and then today when he writes an article strongly implying that Deng was the one guy Pax didn't want to give up, his day old claim is more accurate?


He had a better understanding of Paxson yesterday. It's a zen thing.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

MikeDC said:


> I don't see any such strong implication.


Why write a story about how the Bulls were unwilling to give up Deng if Pax was unwilling to give up any of the four? Why isn't the headline "Paxson refuses to part with core players"? Do you guys disagree that you can strongly imply something by omission?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> Why isn't the headline "Paxson refuses to part with core players"?


B/C the story is that West wanted Deng in order to get the deal done.

And, KC's responses yesterday during the radio interview were his well educated and respected opinions.... and that article isn't an opinion piece.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> LOL.
> 
> Yah, maybe Deng will grow to be 7 feet tall and we can play him at center.
> 
> ...


Great Post! Haha.

Is it me, but does it seem like Deng, PJ, and pick (NYK or 08) would have sealed the deal? West knew getting 2 of the core was not going to happen. He wanted Deng, Pax didn't offer it, so no deal. Simple as that.

We will regret this non-move for a long time.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Deng better turn into a top 10 player or else I'm not liking the move to keeping him. I like Luol, but if it was Luol and PJ for Pau, I would have done it. But then again, Skiles would have ruined Gasol. The guy can't coach Bigs. Thus, Bye Bye Eddy and Tyson.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Not sure what you mean by "genuine". What Pax was supposed to do was call up this morning and make a pitch again. When West insisted on Deng, Pax should have offered him.
> 
> I'm perfectly willing to believe that a trade might not have gone through even after that, but the fact they never got that far is, IMO, a mistake on Pax's part. You like Deng more and Gasol less than me, I spose- fair enough. But from what I can see, he should have been offered.


Fair enough. I think what I'm getting at is that Jerry West is no fool. He knew what he wanted from the Bulls all along - Luol Deng. He wasn't going to settle for anybody else. Pax knew the one player he wanted to keep was none other than Luol Deng. There's a reason that two fairly adept talent evaluators are gunning for the same guy.

When west insisted on Deng Pax was absolutely correct in _not_ offering him. You can call it a mistake on Paxs' part but I believe time will prove otherwise. I would think that something of a red flag is the fact that Jerry West seemingly only wanted Deng. Again, I think there's a real valid reason that both GM's were hung up on the same guy - he's pretty damned good in his own right and he's five years younger.

So, yes, I do value Deng more than you and Gasol less than you and I'm glad Deng was never considered as part of a trade for Gasol by Pax. I view that as Memphis' loss.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> Oh, no, I'm thinking 2-3 years out at this point.
> 
> Wallace will still be on the team. Perhaps he'll start. He'll probably be worse than the player we have right now. (ugh)
> 
> ...


Ok, if it's 2-3 years out, that should likely be indicated in the post. It only makes the position more unfathomable.

3 years from now Pax will not have, via free agency, draft, or trade, another opportunity to acquire a starting-caliber offensively-capable PF or C? That's as untenable as it gets.

The fact of the matter is, we have very little idea what the roster will look like down the line. What I'm worried about is the immediate need to add a big that was not addressed today. It looks like this offseason is the next opportunity.

So what center can we pick up in our likely draft position? Splitter?

Additionally, who knows what Gasol's asking price will be this off-season, or what other bigs will be on the market.

Not getting Gasol (or anyone else) hurts our bigs situation for the rest of the season, to be sure. But I don't think we need to pull the chicken little routine on the future. It will be tougher, though, without PJ's big, fat expiring contract to use.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> So some meaningless deal like exp contracts for Reef not going down is something to be pissed about but passing up our best chance on an all-star quality PF/C for the next 4-6 years isn't?


Yes, exactly.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> 3 years from now Pax will not have, via free agency, draft, or trade, another opportunity to acquire a starting-caliber offensively-capable PF or C? That's as untenable as it gets.


Starting-caliber? Sure.

An all-star 26 year old PF/C like Gasol?

Likely not.

We'll see.

Either way, its "win later."

I'd rather "win later" with Gasol than with a pie-in-the-sky "plan" like yours.




> Not getting Gasol (or anyone else) hurts our bigs situation for the rest of the season, to be sure. But I don't think we need to pull the chicken little routine on the future.


How do you envision the Bulls landing a player like Gasol, save for lotto ball madness?

Especially is Paxson is unwilling to trade a guy like Deng to do so?


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> Starting-caliber? Sure.
> 
> An all-star 26 year old PF/C like Gasol?
> 
> ...


Hmm, well, that's a crappy thing to say. What exactly is "my" plan? Please let me know.

Of course, your post is entirely misleading because it omits the loss of Deng, but that's not surprising in the least.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Just for comparison's sake...

*Luol Deng(21 years old)*
Minutes: 37.0
Points: 18.5
FG%: 52.2%
FT%: 75.8%
Rebounds: 7.1
Assists: 2.2
Steals: 1.2
Blocks: 0.6
Turnovers: 1.84

February Games
vs Atlanta(W)(29 min, 16 pts(6-13), 6 reb, 2 ast)
at Charlotte(L)(43 min, 19 pts(9-21), 9 reb, 1 ast, 2 stl, 1 blk)
vs Toronto(L)(43 min, 30 pts(15-23), 5 reb, 2 ast)
at Phoenix(W)(47 min, 29 pts(11-20), 10 reb, 3 ast, 1 stl, 2 blk)
at Golden State(L)(44 min, 23 pts(11-18), 9 reb, 4 ast, 1 blk)
at Sacramento(L)(46 min, 20 pts(9-22), 10 reb, 3 ast, 3 stl)
at Utah(L)(45 min, 23 pts(6-14), 6 reb, 2 ast, 3 stl) 
at Portland(W)(31 min, 14 pts(4-10), 10 reb, 1 stl, 1 blk)
at Seattle(W)(41 min, 27 pts(9-13), 12 reb, 2 ast, 1 stl)
AVERAGES: 41.0 min, 22.3 pts, 8.8 reb, 2.1 ast, 1.2 stl, 0.6 blk, 2.0 to)

*Pau Gasol(26 years old)*
Minutes: 34.9(difference between Pau and Luol=2.1 min)
Points: 20.2(Gasol-1.7 pts)
FG%: 52.9%(Gasol-0.7%)
FT%: 72.5%(Deng-0.3%)
Rebounds: 9.4(Gasol-2.3 reb)
Assists: 3.2(Gasol-1.0 ast)
Steals: 0.4
Blocks: 2.2(Gasol-0.8 blk/stl)
Turnovers: 3.0(Deng-1.16 to)

February Games
at Golden State(L)(45 min, 22 pts(9-19), 14 reb, 5 ast, 1 blk)
at Seattle(L)(40 min, 17 pts(6-11), 12 reb, 4 ast, 1 stl, 2 blk)
at Indiana(L)(40 min, 19 pts(8-16), 13 reb, 2 ast, 1 stl, 2 blk)
vs New Orleans(W)(34 min, 11 pts(3-10), 15 reb, 3 ast, 3 blk)
at New Orleans(L)(39 min, 21 pts(8-18), 11 reb, 6 ast, 1 blk)
vs Minnesota(W)(48 min, 10 pts(2-13), 17 reb, 5 ast, 1 stl, 2 blk)
at Dallas(L)(38 min, 29 pts(13-19), 9 reb, 3 ast, 4 blk)
vs Houston(L)(42 min, 30 pts(13-28), 13 reb, 5 ast, 5 blk) 
vs Indiana(L)(36 min, 30 pts(12-22), 9 reb, 3 ast, 3 blk)
AVERAGES: 40.2 min, 21.0 pts, 12.6 reb, 4.0 ast, 0.3 stl, 2.6 blk, 3.4 to

Trading Deng for Gasol would be defined as treading water. Not only is Deng five years younger, but their stats are almost identical and I'd argue Deng has been outplaying Pau so far in the month of February. Deng shoots an almost identical percentage despite many of his shots being from outside the paint. His assists are lower because Gasol gets fed the ball on nearly every play (i.e. everything runs through him). Gasol turns the ball over more (again, a symptom of having the ball more). The only thing Gasol really has over Luol is that he's 7 foot tall and rebounds the basketball at a higher clip (though Pau plays the post and Deng plays the wing). I would've absolutely sent Gordon, Nocioni, Tyrus, and PJ for Gasol and Cardinal. Giving up Luol is just foolish.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> How do you envision the Bulls landing a player like Gasol, save for lotto ball madness?
> 
> Especially is Paxson is unwilling to trade a guy like Deng to do so?


Well, this edit has problems as well.

First, you imply that you have to have a C/PF of Gasol's caliber in order to success. Not true. I seem to remember a few championships with Rodman and Luc freaking Longley as the bigs.

Especially if Paxson is unwilling to trade a guy like Deng who is substantially younger and already puts up numbers approaching Gasols? That doesn't really mean anything to me.

I expect Pax to add a big through the normal means. MLE, lottery pick, or trade. I sort of think that goes without saying. The better question is _will_ he make one of these moves. We shall see.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Hmm, well, that's a crappy thing to say. What exactly is "my" plan? Please let me know.


I don't think you have one, other than "wait n see" and "in pax we trust."

Disagree?


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

T.Shock said:


> Trading Deng for Gasol would be defined as treading water.


Then what is trading Deng + PJ + lottery pick for Gasol?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> First, you imply that you have to have a C/PF of Gasol's caliber in order to success. Not true. I seem to remember a few championships with Rodman and Luc freaking Longley as the bigs.


Not to mention the greatest player of all time and Scottie Pippen.

And even those two needed a Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman.

Perhaps Gordon and Deng will get there as the main guys. I doubt it. And I think they are both very good basketball players.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

jnrjr79 said:


> Well, this edit has problems as well.
> 
> First, you imply that you have to have a C/PF of Gasol's caliber in order to success. Not true. *I seem to remember a few championships with Rodman and Luc freaking Longley as the bigs.*
> 
> ...


Tell me when we get Mike and Scottie back in their prime.

If guys who are way superior to Luol such as TMac and Kobe have yet to win a ring on their own, do we believe Luol is going to lead us to the promise land? 

We won't win unless we build a team that is strong 1-5 throughout. Similar to Detroit. And no PF we have will come close to Pau. Pau >>>>>>>>>> any crap we have. Deng >>> Noce. We end up with more of a gain.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> Not to mention the greatest player of all time and Scottie Pippen.
> 
> And even those two needed a Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman.
> 
> Perhaps Gordon and Deng will get there as the main guys. I doubt it. And I think they are both very good basketball players.


Do you just ignore the posts that disprove your point? Look up above where I use statistics, you know those lovable measures of how a player peforms, to not only display that Luol and Pau are extremely close now, but that Luol will most likely be the better player in 5 years time. I would've loved Gasol, but if West demanded Deng, I wouldn't pull the trigger either. Two weeks ago, I thought Deng was expendable. Then I watched a lot of the Bulls recent West swing and looked at the stats. Luol for Gasol is a push now and a loss later.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> I don't think you have one, other than "wait n see" and "in pax we trust."
> 
> Disagree?


Hmm, pile a jerky thing on top of a jerky thing. Again, you attack by implication. This time, the implication is "jnrjr must have a plan or else he is a blind homer ignoramus" or some such. However, since I argue that the decision on whether to trade Deng for Gasol is essentially a wash, I am a blind Pax fan. Whatever man.

If I were in Pax's shoes I would do the following:
1. Use the pick to draft a big.
2. Use the MLE or an offseason trade to acquire a solid PF/C type.

And, if the price on a KG, Gasol, etc. was at an acceptable level on the offseason, I'd go for it.

You can just keep attacking though. That's fine. Modus operandi.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

theanimal23 said:


> Tell me when we get Mike and Scottie back in their prime.
> 
> If guys who are way superior to Luol such as TMac and Kobe have yet to win a ring on their own, do we believe Luol is going to lead us to the promise land?
> 
> We won't win unless we build a team that is strong 1-5 throughout. Similar to Detroit. And no PF we have will come close to Pau. Pau >>>>>>>>>> any crap we have. Deng >>> Noce. We end up with more of a gain.


Ummmm a Phily team made the Finals with the starting lineup of Eric Snow, Allen Iverson, George Lynch, Tyrone Hill, and Dikembe Mutombo. Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Brown, and Ben Wallace is a better lineup than that is.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I wonder how good Luol is when he is your best option on offense BY FAR. I hope he becomes good since he is going to be a Bull for a long time. But C'mon.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

T.Shock said:


> Ummmm a Phily team made the Finals with the starting lineup of Eric Snow, Allen Iverson, George Lynch, Tyrone Hill, and Dikembe Mutombo. Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Brown, and Ben Wallace is a better lineup than that is.



Yeah. We'll be just like them. Make the finals once, and just get bounced in the 2nd round each year. If you like that, cool. I want to win it all. If not, then you might as well freakin rebuild.

You make the moves to become a title contender year in and year out. We are not doing that. We are making the moves (nothing) to stay as a playoff team to keep ticket sales up.

We won't have cap room anytime soon, and the Bulls make enough of a profit. It's time to ownership and Pax to take it like a man, and take the risk that would make us COMPLETE as a team. We still have a HUGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEE hole that isn't easily to fill.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

I wish people would understand the concept of karma. We as Bulls fans got to watch the greatest basketball player ever, the greatest team ever, and 6 championships in the span of 8 years. Some people on this board are so spoiled. And I wonder how many ditched the team when they went 15-67 nearly every year.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

T.Shock said:


> I wish people would understand the concept of karma. We as Bulls fans got to watch the greatest basketball player ever, the greatest team ever, and 6 championships in the span of 8 years. Some people on this board are so spoiled. And I wonder how many ditched the team when they went 15-67 nearly every year.


Yeah.

Past championships eliminate accountability and future winning of said championships.

:cheers: 


Wait....no.....


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

theanimal23 said:


> I wonder how good Luol is when he is your best option on offense BY FAR. I hope he becomes good since he is going to be a Bull for a long time. But C'mon.


Becomes good. Did you look at the comparison above. He's having a better February than Pau Gasol is right now. You don't need 7-footers to win at basketball. Basketball isn't about size (cough Allen Iverson cough Dwayne Wade, cough Ben Wallace), it's about skill and athleticism. Greg Ostertag was 7 feet tall, perhaps we can lure him out of retirement. Everybody here needs to get a grip.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Vintage said:


> Yeah.
> 
> Past championships eliminate accountability and future winning of said championships.
> 
> ...


Wow. You took a post that made reference to a supernatural belief in karma and somehow twisted that around to mean that the Bulls organization doesn't want to win a championship. Can I get an answer to the question: Why is everybody here so bitter and angry at everything?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

T.Shock said:


> Do you just ignore the posts that disprove your point? Look up above where I use statistics, you know those lovable measures of how a player peforms, to not only display that Luol and Pau are extremely close now, but that Luol will most likely be the better player in 5 years time. I would've loved Gasol, but if West demanded Deng, I wouldn't pull the trigger either. Two weeks ago, I thought Deng was expendable. Then I watched a lot of the Bulls recent West swing and looked at the stats. Luol for Gasol is a push now and a loss later.


I think it's highly debatable that those stats disprove his point. The stats have to be taken in context of how they're produced. Getting another SF who can put up quality stats isn't that unusual. Getting another 4/5 who can do it is.

I mean, I could go through and find the same stats you did that compare any number of obviously inferior players to better ones. I'm a big fan of stats, but you aren't looking at how they're being generated in this case.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

T.Shock said:


> Wow. You took a post that made reference to a supernatural belief in karma and somehow twisted that around to mean that the Bulls organization doesn't want to win a championship. Can I get an answer to the question: Why is everybody here so bitter and angry at everything?


No.

I was merely saying I find it funny that you say its karma. Like as if that excludes our organization from being able to win....because of some "karma" from the 90's greatness.

Maybe there is karma.

But to me, that is loser talk. Not saying you are a loser....don't misconstrue that. But as if somehow "karma" justifies our not being championship caliber.....as if we can settle for less because of this "karma."


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

MikeDC said:


> I think it's highly debatable that those stats disprove his point. The stats have to be taken in context of how they're produced. Getting another SF who can put up quality stats isn't that unusual. Getting another 4/5 who can do it is.
> 
> I mean, I could go through and find the same stats you did that compare any number of obviously inferior players to better ones. I'm a big fan of stats, but you aren't looking at how they're being generated in this case.


This risks throwing more gasoline on the fire, but comparing Luol's stats to Ed C's is also interesting, in the context of your post (which I agree with).


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

As for why we are mad....

As MikeDC stated....finding a productive wing player isn't all that hard.

Finding a productive inside scorer is harder. We still haven't found one.

Yet, we elected to keep the wing player.


In football, finding good RB's is not all that difficult. Finding good QB's is more problem-some. Which gets placed with a higher value?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> This risks throwing more gasoline on the fire, but comparing Luol's stats to Ed C's is also interesting, in the context of your post (which I agree with).


Sort of sidestepping that comparison, the interesting thing to me is that the whole affair sums up how difficult it is to find a guy who bings an inside element to the game and how having that skill makes valuation of players difficult.

In the abstract, I'd say Gasol and Deng are roughly equal, but say Gasol is the better player. I think they're both better players than Curry.

Without Curry, I'd trade Deng to get Gasol. With Curry we wouldn't be having the conversation at all; we'd probably be quite happy with Curry and Deng.

Even though he's not a scorer, I daresay the same is true of Chandler. Doesn't trading Chandler and Deng for Gasol sound a little crazy? But that's basically what we were willing to do (and rightly, I think, since what we actually had was Deng and PJ Brown).


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Doesn't trading Chandler and Deng for Gasol sound a little crazy? But that's basically what we were willing to do (and rightly, I think, since what we actually had was Deng and PJ Brown).


You must mean low-trade-value-of-his-career-Chandler? Because that's the only one that gets traded for PJ.


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## Ragingbull33 (Apr 10, 2005)

McBulls said:


> To quote Yogi Berra :
> "When you come to a fork in the road, take it!"
> 
> I think young Paxson just escaped the Jedi mind tricks of the Logo.
> ...


true, the trader will be there this summer, though we may not have the salaries.

if hoiberg takes over for mchale i wonder if we can get garnett.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

MikeDC said:


> I think it's highly debatable that those stats disprove his point. The stats have to be taken in context of how they're produced. Getting another SF who can put up quality stats isn't that unusual. Getting another 4/5 who can do it is.
> 
> I mean, I could go through and find the same stats you did that compare any number of obviously inferior players to better ones. I'm a big fan of stats, but you aren't looking at how they're being generated in this case.


I still think the best indicators of how valuable a player is, are the smaller stats. FG%, Assist to Turnover ratio, rebounds + steals + blocks. Anybody can score 30 a game if they take 30 shots a game. How do you get those shots and how often do possessions end when you have the ball. I'm not saying Gasol isn't better than Luol, he is. But my point is that trading Deng for Gasol is basically going to end up an even trade as soon as next year. If we had traded Deng, I can guarantee you, a number of posters here would be *****ing about Pax giving up Luol two years from now. Just like everybody was ready to ship Curry and Chandler out of town, but now spend their time pining for players they were perfectly fine giving up as recently as 9 months ago.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I may have supported the Tyson trade, in hope that we can use PJ as bait to get that low-post scoring, but I always supported Eddy and Tyson, the duo. If we kept the 47 win team, we would be contending, and the Sky would be the limit.

Hello Skiles, I hate the Big Men Coach, and you know the rest with PaxSkiles.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

K.C. Johnson reports we made trade offers for both Bonzi Wells and Nazr Mohammed. 



> The Bulls were willing to abandon their organizational philosophy of avoiding players with character questions if the Rockets had bit on a Michael Sweetney-for-Bonzi Wells offer. The Bulls envisioned posting up Wells in smaller lineups and running offense through him.
> 
> But the Rockets declined.
> 
> ...


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-070222bulls,1,7559925.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines

At least we made a pitch for Bonzi, despite his supposed character issues. I think a move like that one would've been an absolute steal for us. Nazr would've been an ok move, but I'm not disappointed we didn't get him.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

That's a revealing article. 



> As the Bulls' John Paxson left the general managers' meeting in Las Vegas on Saturday, he placed a call to Gar Forman.
> 
> The Bulls' director of player personnel asked Paxson to guess which player was on the Berto Center practice court, sweating profusely, spending his All-Star break doing anything other than relaxing.
> 
> ...





> "I know [Gasol] would fill a need," Paxson said. "But Lu at 21 has an upside that I would like to see through. His skill level will get better. I've said from Day One, whatever his potential is he's going to reach it because he's so conscientious."


I guess it's possible that this is a fluff piece in that no GM is going to publicly state he would trade one of his players. It doesn't sound like it, though. 

I don't find his reasoning very compelling. Hard work doesn't trump talent and size. But I've whined enough today. 



> Paxson also is mindful that, with a deep draft, trade options might be available this June and the Bulls could parlay a potential lottery pick from the Knicks into a veteran power forward.


Like who?? Argh. 



> Grizzlies GM Jerry West made it clear that any deal for Gasol would have to include Deng. The Grizzlies ultimately had little interest in guard Ben Gordon, whom Paxson also didn't want to deal.


What's the deal with Gordon anyway? His play has been just decent lately, and nothing close to his dominating stretch in December and January. Have teams figured him out? Is he going to push past this rough stretch? Maybe this deserves a new thread.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

I think Ben got nervous about the trade deadline.

As far as Deng, if he puts on another 15 pounds of muscle this offseason, and gets to 240 pounds, why not have him be an actual power forward? Get him a big man coach to work on postmoves. He could become one of the greatest powerforwards of alltime. He definitely has the length to be a powerforward.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> Yeah. We'll be just like them. Make the finals once, and just get bounced in the 2nd round each year. If you like that, cool. I want to win it all. If not, then you might as well freakin rebuild.
> 
> You make the moves to become a title contender year in and year out. We are not doing that. We are making the moves (nothing) to stay as a playoff team to keep ticket sales up.
> 
> We won't have cap room anytime soon, and the Bulls make enough of a profit. It's time to ownership and Pax to take it like a man, and take the risk that would make us COMPLETE as a team. We still have a HUGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEE hole that isn't easily to fill.


A team makes the finals and loses, so they might as well rebuild???

So the dynasty Bulls should have rebuilt when they couldn't get over the Detroit hump? How many draft picks would you have traded Josh Howard for (he doesn't have the handles to be a superstar) after last season's futile showing by the Mavericks?

I suppose the Bears weren't contenders in your eyes since they were 7 point dogs and ended up losing in the Super Bowl.


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## Cyanobacteria (Jun 25, 2002)

Cyanobacteria said:


> OK, so let's get this straight for all concerned...
> 
> If you like Pax, the deal that didn't get done was Lu + Ben/Kirk/Noc + PJ + NY pick
> If you don't like Pax the deal that didn't get done was Lu + PJ
> ...



I stand corrected, now it appears...

If you like Pax, the deal that didn't get done was Lu + Ben/Kirk/Noc + PJ + NY pick.
If you don't like Pax the deal that didn't get done was Noc + NY pick + expiring filler.

Would the pro-Pax side also like to resubmit their deal that didn't happen so that the margin between how good or how bad Pax did becomes even wider?


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Rhyder said:


> A team makes the finals and loses, so they might as well rebuild???
> 
> So the dynasty Bulls should have rebuilt when they couldn't get over the Detroit hump? How many draft picks would you have traded Josh Howard for (he doesn't have the handles to be a superstar) after last season's futile showing by the Mavericks?
> 
> I suppose the Bears weren't contenders in your eyes since they were 7 point dogs and ended up losing in the Super Bowl.



There's a huge difference between consistantly making it to the ECF and Finals, than making it there once and then losing several times in the 1st and 2nd round 4-2, etc. I don't to be one of those teams, as you are clearly missing a huge piece. Either you are a contender a la San Antonio, or you are a pretender a la Denver Nuggets with Carmelo or the NJ Nets right now.

I won't dulge into the Beras, b/c this entire board would attack me, but my opinion is this: If you have to rely on Rex Grossman to being your SuperBowl QB, you will never win it. Sorry thats my opinion, and I know 99.9999999% of you will probably want to choke me for that.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> We still have a HUGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEE hole that isn't easily to fill.












"Join the club, boys!"


xxxooo, Paris


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> "Join the club, boys!"
> 
> 
> xxxooo, Paris


Burrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrn!


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