# Let Him (Araujo) Play....



## Lakers Own (Mar 3, 2005)

Sportsnet.

"He's averaging just over five minutes per game and every time he messes up, Mitchell gives him the hook. So far he's been a complete bust and it's hard to give him minutes if he isn't doing anything when he's out there, however if it is their intention to keep him on this team, he has to play."

"Let's face it, unless they are willing to let him go at the end of the year and pay the final year of his contract he will be a Raptor again next season so why not get him out there. What's the worst thing that will happen? He messes up and the Raptors lose. News flash, they are losing anyway so what's the big deal?"

http://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/columnist.jsp?content=20051114_102736_376

I know what the big deal is. Rafael Aruajo sucks. He starts, just like he did last year, I have a thing I like to call the Rafael Araujo rule; this is when a garbage player starts for whatever reason then get's subbed after 5 minutes. This happened last year when Marshall would go on for him and this year after Aruajo grabs one board, 3 fouls and twiddles his thumbs on offense, Charlie V goes on to play about 30+ minutes. Aruajo is garbage, I see no potential in him, Charlie V does have potential. I'd rather see a player who can actually improve, get better by playing more minutes than some garbage who will never amount to anything.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

*Agree i think let Araujo play + 20 mpg wont hurt anyone, and will give him confidence. and Maybe the Raptors can find a good surprise in him *


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## Big Dub (Nov 20, 2005)

Brooklyn said:


> *Agree i think let Araujo play + 20 mpg wont hurt anyone, and will give him confidence. and Maybe the Raptors can find a good surprise in him *


it would hurt though to give him those 20+ minutes mainly th eprogress of C-villa since CV is averaging 28 minutes a game and Bosh i sabout 40 i couls see mitchell cuttin back on his minutes but we just cant Bosh HAS to be on the floor 40+ minutes or we get no inside scoring and reboiunding . the only wasy the Hoffa can reach his full potential is of course get minutes and theonly wasy he os goin ot ge tthose is of we send him down to the D league which i think is a good idea let him develope down there and worse case senerio, he doesnt pan out not like he has already so the obviouse choise is to send him down.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

Big Dub said:


> it would hurt though to give him those 20+ minutes mainly th eprogress of C-villa since CV is averaging 28 minutes a game and Bosh i sabout 40 i couls see mitchell cuttin back on his minutes but we just cant Bosh HAS to be on the floor 40+ minutes or we get no inside scoring and reboiunding . the only wasy the Hoffa can reach his full potential is of course get minutes and theonly wasy he os goin ot ge tthose is of we send him down to the D league which i think is a good idea let him develope down there and worse case senerio, he doesnt pan out not like he has already so the obviouse choise is to send him down.



*Bosh will receive his minutes, and CV and Hoffa can easy receieve 25 minutes each.*


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## LakerLunatic (Mar 1, 2005)

Agreed, Hoffa is the worst player in Basketball. Did you see the defense he was playing against Mourning? 

He had his hands straight up, its like, i know 13 year olds who know how to play post D, and he dosent even know how to. Good god, seriously just waive him i dont care if he has a guaranteed contract, he blows and he is a waste of a roster spot. jahidi white looks like Amare compared to hoffa.


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

Big Dub said:


> it would hurt though to give him those 20+ minutes mainly th eprogress of C-villa since CV is averaging 28 minutes a game and Bosh i sabout 40 i couls see mitchell cuttin back on his minutes but we just cant Bosh HAS to be on the floor 40+ minutes or we get no inside scoring and reboiunding . the only wasy the Hoffa can reach his full potential is of course get minutes and theonly wasy he os goin ot ge tthose is of we send him down to the D league which i think is a good idea let him develope down there and worse case senerio, he doesnt pan out not like he has already so the obviouse choise is to send him down.


why not try out our supposed lineup of the future....CV/Bosh/Hoffa and the 3,4,5 repectively?????



LakerLunatic said:


> Agreed, Hoffa is the worst player in Basketball. Did you see the defense he was playing against Mourning?
> 
> He had his hands straight up, its like, i know 13 year olds who know how to play post D, and he dosent even know how to. Good god, seriously just waive him i dont care if he has a guaranteed contract, he blows and he is a waste of a roster spot. jahidi white looks like Amare compared to hoffa.


wow...u take what commentators say preety seriously....and on teh whole part....ZO was completely ABUSING whomever we through at thim..whether it be Bosh or CV...Hoffa was banging with him down low...and was the only thing that stopped Zo from giong off for a 20/20 game agaisnt us...he played preety damn good defense that game if u ask em...


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## Lakers Own (Mar 3, 2005)

I agree that Hoffa should be sent to the D League. Maybe if theres a drop of potential in him he can reach it there. There is no way Araujo can play 25 mins a game. For one thing I doubt his conditioning is that good. Secondly, he's probably foul out after 10 minutes. Third, if by some miracle he were able to stay foul free he would just get tooled on by anyone in the league and it would hurt the team more than help them.


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## [email protected] (Sep 27, 2005)

LakerLunatic said:


> Agreed, Hoffa is the worst player in Basketball. Did you see the defense he was playing against Mourning?
> 
> He had his hands straight up, its like, i know 13 year olds who know how to play post D, and he dosent even know how to. Good god, seriously just waive him i dont care if he has a guaranteed contract, he blows and he is a waste of a roster spot. jahidi white looks like Amare compared to hoffa.


what the ****? that was great defense he played on Zo. that's the best defense ive seen any toronto centre play on Zo. so get that garbage out of here.
also, the Raptors need someone like jahadi white to grab boards...lol


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## [email protected] (Sep 27, 2005)

Lakers Own said:


> I agree that Hoffa should be sent to the D League. Maybe if theres a drop of potential in him he can reach it there. There is no way Araujo can play 25 mins a game. For one thing I doubt his conditioning is that good. Secondly, he's probably foul out after 10 minutes. Third, if by some miracle he were able to stay foul free he would just get tooled on by anyone in the league and it would hurt the team more than help them.


so what do you suggest? let bosh get tooled around instead and decrease his value as a natural PF?
have you ever even played basketball in your life? or any sport for that matter?

to start someone on the court/field for 5 minutes then taking them off right away has to be one of (if not THE) most confidence shattering things of all times. big men develop the slowest and the Raptors need him more than people think. ya let's trade Woods, send Hoffa to the NBDL and never play Aaron Williams. OH look at that, we have no more big men.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

I agree with the article, definitely. The notion that if we give Hoffa 20 minutes a game (20 minutes!) will cut back from Villy and Bosh's minutes is just so absurd. We need someone to play centre for us. Bosh and Villy can handle it in small spurts, but neither is a centre. Bosh DOES NOT have to play 40+ minutes a game at this point.

Here's the deal: we're a rebuilding team, and we're not doing ourselves any good by leaving him to rot on the bench rather than try developing him on the court.


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

Send him to the D League, or package him with Rose to a team that thinks he can produce at this level.

Someone stupid like Isiah.

In my NBA LIVE 06 season I traded Hoffa and Rose for Penny and Frye, done and done.
Its amazing how realistic games are today.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Benis007 said:


> Send him to the D League, or package him with Rose to a team that thinks he can produce at this level.
> 
> Someone stupid like Isiah.
> 
> ...


OMG, i have to change my pants, that deal is that sweet....hoff, hmmm yeah we're losing but if hoff can't follow Sam's game plan get him out....however if he does do what Sam asks of him and still picks up fouls, well that's not so much his fault.

Hoff's made his bed.


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## spinz (Aug 19, 2005)

lets hope he gained some much needed confidence with his dance with Zo'...he needed a game like that against a beast like Zo to either make or break his confidence...

i think it was a good call by mitchell to start Hoffa (not much other choices), instead of bonner, woods or williams...

not only that, but his teammates were cheering him on and encouraging him during the game...gotta be a nice feeling to have your team behind you...

next up: Phoenix...go Hoffa go!!!


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

I don't think we'll see much of Hoffa against Phoenix. I hope he gets the start, but I'd be surprised to see him get any more than 10 minutes, if that. They're too much of an uptempo team for him to log major minutes in, plus he has nobody to bang with down low. Kurt Thomas? Yikes, he'd foul out in 5 minutes if he plays the way he did with Zo.

However, I'd still like to see him get burn and start the first and third quarters, if for no other reason, as a confidence boost. But I think the Bonner at C experiment might actually fit for this game here.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

People said the very same things about the current starting center for the Lakers, and while Mihm is no all-star and an average center at best, he's still a contributing NBA center. 

No, Hoffa can't block shots. No he doesn't dunk on people. Can he do other things on the court? He certainly can. He can be an intimidator, a post battler, a high percentage jump shooter, and many other things.

I had started to think that Mitchell was writing him off but then I noticed that Hoffa wasn't just getting out there for garbage minutes, Sam was just trying to get real use out of him in a limited role (until last night). I don't think he was really being pulled for messing up, just like Aaron wasn't benched for messing up. 

I think Hoffa is starting to get it and Mitchell will develop him as our primary big man outside of Bosh and Charlie. Sometimes Bonner may get more minutes but for the most part Hoffa will get to come in and do what he does best- bruising. His rebounding is looking better (it certainly did against Zo) and he definitely looks more comfortable on the court. 

By the allstar break, Hoffa will be solid. 10-20 minutes a game and making a significant contribution.


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## Lakers Own (Mar 3, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> so what do you suggest? let bosh get tooled around instead and decrease his value as a natural PF?
> have you ever even played basketball in your life? or any sport for that matter?
> 
> to start someone on the court/field for 5 minutes then taking them off right away has to be one of (if not THE) most confidence shattering things of all times. big men develop the slowest and the Raptors need him more than people think. ya let's trade Woods, send Hoffa to the NBDL and never play Aaron Williams. OH look at that, we have no more big men.


What the **** is your problem? When did I say start Bosh at 5? When did I say not to play Aaron Williams and trade Woods? Sam Mitchell doesn't screw around, if you aren't playing well he'll pull you, this is happened many times and it has started happening to Rose. I agree with you that playing for 5 minutes then getting pulled is very bad for ones phyche. So why not bring him off then bench and see if maybe that'll give him some more motivation to play better and become a starter? I'm not bashing the Raptors I like the Raptors seeing as I live in Canada so don't get all defensive.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Lakers Own said:


> What the **** is your problem? When did I say start Bosh at 5? When did I say not to play Aaron Williams and trade Woods? Sam Mitchell doesn't screw around, if you aren't playing well he'll pull you, this is happened many times and it has started happening to Rose. I agree with you that playing for 5 minutes then getting pulled is very bad for ones phyche. So why not bring him off then bench and see if maybe that'll give him some more motivation to play better and become a starter? I'm not bashing the Raptors I like the Raptors seeing as I live in Canada so don't get all defensive.


actually Sam pulling guys who aren't playing well is a pretty new thing for him....hoffa usually gets in foul trouble and forces Sam's hand, but guys who don't play well? Hell, untill recently Sam didn't even know when to call a timeout.....He is getting better and LakersO, you're right, he is finally begining to pull guys who start weak.


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## ABC (Nov 4, 2002)

Brooklyn said:


> *Agree i think let Araujo play + 20 mpg wont hurt anyone, and will give him confidence. and Maybe the Raptors can find a good surprise in him *


if this is a video game and you can turn the fouls--> off, he fouled out in 10 mins of straight play..


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

ABC said:


> if this is a video game and you can turn the fouls--> off, he fouled out in 10 mins of straight play..


Not in his last game, playing 20 minutes, he didn't.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Not in his last game, playing 20 minutes, he didn't.


yeah and games like that are about as rare as an Irish Raptors fan...jj lol. :cheers:


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## LakerLunatic (Mar 1, 2005)

Can someone find me a pic of that one play where Araujo was playing D against Mourning in the post, like i said, ive seen 10 year olds who play proper post D, that was like, it questioned my belief that he was actually a Basketball player.

WAIVE HIM, HE IS A WASTE OF A ROSTER SPOT!


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## LakerLunatic (Mar 1, 2005)

Mad Rep points to the guy who started this thread, this ****s HOT!



p.s ARAUJO SUCKS!


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

shookem said:


> yeah and games like that are about as rare as an Irish Raptors fan...jj lol. :cheers:


touche/


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Still, I heard he played reasonably well last night?


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

SkywalkerAC said:


> Still, I heard he played reasonably well last night?


Using the Hoff-O-Meter of performance evaluating, yes it was a reasonably well played game.
He got three offensive rebounds, but couldn't finish. He caught a nice pass in traffic, but couldn't hit the ensuing free throws. He didn't turn the ball over and only had two fouls in 11 minutes, so yep a pretty good game for Hoffa. A pretty crappy game for anyone who doesn't scream when they get rebounds, but good enough for good ol' Hoff.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

shookem said:


> Using the Hoff-O-Meter of performance evaluating, yes it was a reasonably well played game.
> He got three offensive rebounds, but couldn't finish. He caught a nice pass in traffic, but couldn't hit the ensuing free throws. He didn't turn the ball over and only had two fouls in 11 minutes, so yep a pretty good game for Hoffa. A pretty crappy game for anyone who doesn't scream when they get rebounds, but good enough for good ol' Hoff.


Don't knock the screaming. It really helps with physical exertion. Just ask the Williams sisters.

Expect Hoffa's numbers to continue going up as he earns more and more minutes (or even if he doesn't). He'll be that 6 and 6 guy before you know it.


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## ColinBeehler (Oct 14, 2003)

LakerLunatic said:


> Can someone find me a pic of that one play where Araujo was playing D against Mourning in the post, like i said, ive seen 10 year olds who play proper post D, that was like, it questioned my belief that he was actually a Basketball player.
> 
> WAIVE HIM, HE IS A WASTE OF A ROSTER SPOT!


If you are remembering the same play I am... It was actually solid d... he played d with his hands down, and then when Mourning turned and shot a fadaway jumper, Araujo did the proper thing. He didnt foul, he put two hands straight up, and got in his face as much as he could.... When a player shoots a fadaway, you shouldnt jump at him. Anyways, if I am mistaken, so be it. But if I'm not, although a rare tactic in the NBA, it wasnt bad defense.

-lata


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

ColinBeehler said:


> If you are remembering the same play I am... It was actually solid d... he played d with his hands down, and then when Mourning turned and shot a fadaway jumper, Araujo did the proper thing. He didnt foul, he put two hands straight up, and got in his face as much as he could.... When a player shoots a fadaway, you shouldnt jump at him. Anyways, if I am mistaken, so be it. But if I'm not, although a rare tactic in the NBA, it wasnt bad defense.
> 
> -lata


I think he's probably refering to the one where Zo went kind of up and under Hoffa, who tried to stand him up. I guess it's this one because it's the one that Leo commented on, complaining that Hoffa has to get down low to battle. I think Hoffa made that a very difficult shot for as he still has amazing stability and strenth with his arms up, and challenges the shot. Zo made the shot but it wasn't pretty and it wasn't easy.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

More of the same. Hoff scores 6 points in the first 3 minutes, and gets a 7 minute burn in the 1Q.

Earns a start in 2Q, but within 90 seconds or so he gets a 3 in the key and is immediately subbed off for the half.

Still, gets to start the 3Q, until he commits his 2nd TO, and within 13 seconds, he is gone for the rest of the game.

I don't think a player can perform under those circumstances. Perfection or pine, those are your choices, buddy. Now go have fun!


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## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

The Mad Viking said:


> More of the same. Hoff scores 6 points in the first 3 minutes, and gets a 7 minute burn in the 1Q.
> 
> Earns a start in 2Q, but within 90 seconds or so he gets a 3 in the key and is immediately subbed off for the half.
> 
> ...


Its simply baffling. IF we were in the NBA finals I could understand it, but he lets everyone else make mistakes - bad shots, bad passes, ****ty defense and they get their minutes. I didn't get to see the game, as a team how did we play with him on the court? Were we up, was he making a difference aside from the 6 points?


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

CrookedJ said:


> Its simply baffling. IF we were in the NBA finals I could understand it, but he lets everyone else make mistakes - bad shots, bad passes, ****ty defense and they get their minutes. I didn't get to see the game, as a team how did we play with him on the court? Were we up, was he making a difference aside from the 6 points?


The thing with this team is no one makes a differance out there, at least not in a lot of cases. Matt at least looks like he knows what he's doing, hoffa still look confused out there. he wasn't bad enough to be pulled, but not good enough to keep Charlie out of the game.


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## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

shookem said:


> The thing with this team is no one makes a differance out there, at least not in a lot of cases. Matt at least looks like he knows what he's doing, hoffa still look confused out there. he wasn't bad enough to be pulled, but not good enough to keep Charlie out of the game.


I don't see why Charlie Hoffa and Bosh all can't be out there at the same time. Given the crappy play we're getting from Rose and Peterson, put Charlie at the three with Mo or Rose or Graham at the 2 for some time. Matt might look like he knows what he's doing, but are the results any better?


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

I'm against it. The future frontcourt of this franchise should be the athletic and exciting Graham/Bosh/Villanueva. When Babcock drafted CV, he did it to replace Araujo ASAP. Araujo's only future with this franchise is a bench player, and the Raptors shouldn't have to develop a role player. If the Raps want a role player, they should sign a vet. The staff should spend time on their young starting frontcourt, and build from there. Babcock made a mistake, and he should publicly admit he drafted a Maurice Clarrett when he waives Araujo.


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## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

WTChan said:


> I'm against it. The future frontcourt of this franchise should be the athletic and exciting Graham/Bosh/Villanueva. When Babcock drafted CV, he did it to replace Araujo ASAP. Araujo's only future with this franchise is a bench player, and the Raptors shouldn't have to develop a role player. If the Raps want a role player, they should sign a vet. The staff should spend time on their young starting frontcourt, and build from there. Babcock made a mistake, and he should publicly admit he drafted a Maurice Clarrett when he waives Araujo.



Its not that I don't see the merrits of your plan, I would be fine with that . . . the question is why start Araujo, why not play Bosh at C if thats the long term plan? I think they don't know what they want.


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## Timbaland (Nov 18, 2005)

It's pretty clear that Bosh can't handle the physicalness of NBA centres on both offense and defence. If you just look at the game against the Suns you could see that once Grant started to body up on him, he was having a difficult time. The only way we can get away with playing him at the 5 is if the opposing centre isn't that physical. I don't think Charlie is big enough either on defense to play against some of the centres in the NBA. So whether people like it or not, Araujo has to be our 5. Sam Mitchell just has to cut Hoff some slack and not pull him out every time he makes a mistake. Everyone knows that it takes big men more time to develop at this level but it would be pretty hard for anyone if they aren't given the minutes.

I say let the kid play, if he proves he can't handle it then you can sit him. But unless you can find another 6'10 280 pound body, then hes the best we've got.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Araujo doesn't fit my idea for the Raptors. He's slow and unathletic. With CV at the 5, the Raptors can be an uptempo team. With a good PG, the Raptors can have a frontcourt variation of Jersey's Kidd/Carter/Jefferson. The most important thing for a fastbreak team is athletic bigs. CV can be that athletic center that starts AND finishes breaks. Calderon could be the PG to create those alley-oops, but I haven't seen him play, so I wouldn't know.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Bosh/Charlie/Aldridge?
Bosh/Charlie/Bargnani?
?????????????????????


-even at his best Hoffa will only be a decent back-up NBA center.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

Lakers Own said:


> Sportsnet.
> 
> "He's averaging just over five minutes per game and every time he messes up, Mitchell gives him the hook. So far he's been a complete bust and it's hard to give him minutes if he isn't doing anything when he's out there, however if it is their intention to keep him on this team, he has to play."
> 
> ...


well you got your wish and he played well. As long as he does not rush the ball/take bad shots and turn it over he will be given more of a chance to develop.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

WTChan said:


> Araujo doesn't fit my idea for the Raptors. He's slow and unathletic. With CV at the 5, the Raptors can be an uptempo team. With a good PG, the Raptors can have a frontcourt variation of Jersey's Kidd/Carter/Jefferson. The most important thing for a fastbreak team is athletic bigs. CV can be that athletic center that starts AND finishes breaks. Calderon could be the PG to create those alley-oops, but I haven't seen him play, so I wouldn't know.


I wouldn't call Araujo slow. He's faster than Petro, who was deemed as an athletic monster. (Not to bait you because your a sonics fan, just comparing him to a player you would know well)


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

WTChan said:


> Araujo doesn't fit my idea for the Raptors. He's slow and unathletic. With CV at the 5, the Raptors can be an uptempo team. With a good PG, the Raptors can have a frontcourt variation of Jersey's Kidd/Carter/Jefferson. The most important thing for a fastbreak team is athletic bigs. CV can be that athletic center that starts AND finishes breaks. Calderon could be the PG to create those alley-oops, but I haven't seen him play, so I wouldn't know.


 I agree with running that kind of fast break, too. But you can't do that over a full 48 minutes, and not every team is good to use that lineup on, either. Having both guys in there makes for a much deeper team, anyway, but the only way that could happen is if Hoffa gets more burn. We have _plenty_ of time to run a big man fast break in the future and run it to win games, not just develop our guys, either. But for now, we need to do the latter, and we're just not doing it.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

It's good to see Sam giving Hoffa the minutes and it's even better to see Hoffa respond so well.
He has looked good since that game against the Heat, hopefully he has cemented in his mind what his role is and what he is capable of. It takes along time for that process to happen and we've Hoffa struggle for the better part of his career, but the recent string of well played game, topped off with last nights, almost new career high (I bet he really wishes he hit that FT to complete his three-point play now) shows that Hoffa has learned something. That's all I need to see outta him, that he is capable of learning something and for a while there I really thought that he had topped out on what he could do. He still get beat on D all the time, but last night he did the most important thing he could do (on offense), he finished. I think that is one of the (ideally) big differnances between rookie and second year players, in the second (and by the end of the first really), young big men must make the adjustments and figure out how to finish in the NBA. We see this with Villanueva and Graham (and also Calderon), they get to the basket and get the ball right near the rim, but they can't get it to drop. It's like everyone says, they're adjusting to the speed of the NBA, but in most cases, it isn't that they aren't fast enough, or else they wouldn't have been drafted, it's that in order to get the game speed to a NBA level they have to play a little outside their comfort/control level. 
I remember last year many a Hoffa just that just should've went in, same thing this year with the new forwards, but last night Hoffa showed that he could learn and that he could learn to do the most important individual thing on offense: finish.
we'll see...


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

I take last night's game for Hoffa with a grain of salt, seeing as it was against the Kings' weak defense, however that's not to say I'm not very pleased with his performance. Scoring 14 points the way he did, patient, calm, good shots, is more than anyone could have asked for, and it wasn't just a one-quarter thing. He played consistently every time he was put into the game last night, and it's a very good sign if he can keep up what he's been doing these past few games. Let's hope he can carry this momentum out over the whole season.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Hoffa coming along nicely. I'm so happy that Mitchell has brought him firmly into his rotation (and taken Woods out).


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

if thats what Hoffa looks like against non-shot blockers, he should have been used tons more times by now

just don't let him play against Cato or Curry and we're good


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

vigilante said:


> I wouldn't call Araujo slow. He's faster than Petro, who was deemed as an athletic monster. (Not to bait you because your a sonics fan, just comparing him to a player you would know well)


Okay, maybe not slow. But definitely not fast enough to keep up with Bosh or CV. In case you wanted to know about Petro, he was supposed to have Dalembert-esque athleticism, but he really is not all that fast. Haven't seen Hoffa played enough, so I can't make any judgements. Petro is slower than he was supposed to be, and I'd compare his speed to Erick Dampier- maybe less.
Back to Araujo- he is an offensive player, but do the Raptors really need another post scorer? The idea was to have a high-low (or mid-low) combo of Bosh and Araujo, which includes Bosh's finesse and Araujo's brusing style of play. That was plan A. This year's plan B is to have a more athletic combo of Bosh and CV. I'm saying CV has a much better future than Araujo, and it's a waste to spend time and effort on developing a future role player who can be mediocre at best. Power players who aren't at least halfway polished when the enter the league turn out to be crap- 
Shaq, Al Jefferson and Okafor (POLISHED GOLD) vs. Kandi, Ousmane Cisse and Diop (RAW CRAP)
Eddy Curry, a raw prospect, still uses his seal-off & dunk move exclusively. And Hoffa won't do that.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

WTChan said:


> Okay, maybe not slow. But definitely not fast enough to keep up with Bosh or CV. In case you wanted to know about Petro, he was supposed to have Dalembert-esque athleticism, but he really is not all that fast. Haven't seen Hoffa played enough, so I can't make any judgements. Petro is slower than he was supposed to be, and I'd compare his speed to Erick Dampier- maybe less.
> Back to Araujo- he is an offensive player, but do the Raptors really need another post scorer? The idea was to have a high-low (or mid-low) combo of Bosh and Araujo, which includes Bosh's finesse and Araujo's brusing style of play. That was plan A. This year's plan B is to have a more athletic combo of Bosh and CV. I'm saying CV has a much better future than Araujo, and it's a waste to spend time and effort on developing a future role player who can be mediocre at best. Power players who aren't at least halfway polished when the enter the league turn out to be crap-
> Shaq, Al Jefferson and Okafor (POLISHED GOLD) vs. Kandi, Ousmane Cisse and Diop (RAW CRAP)
> Eddy Curry, a raw prospect, still uses his seal-off & dunk move exclusively. And Hoffa won't do that.


OK, I'm going to try to make sense of this.

1) You only need two big men and we've got them in CV and Bosh.

3) If we did need more than two, a complementary player would not be a big bruising, skilled big man that can guard centers.

4) If you aren't NBA-ready as a rookie big man, you're a lost cause.

5) Mediocre CENTERS aren't extremely valuable.


Hoffa's exactly the kind of player we need to put beside CV and Bosh (even having the option to playing all three together). He's not a finished product and will continue to improve. If you've got a mediocre center on a reasonable contract, count your lucky stars.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

agreed ^^^ great post


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

CV is NOT a big man. He plays small. He finishes weak inside.

Would you call Rashard Lewis a 'big man'? He's taller than Charlie.

Honestly the hype on Charlie is overwhelming and undeserved at this time. 14 games in and he has had about 4 really good games where he made any impact. That's it.

He got abused by Rebraca the other night, and Biedrins/Diogu last night. Marion made him look pathetic. Zo killed us when Hoff was out. It goes on and on.

Charlie is basically a PF who has offensive skills of a SF. That's it.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

lucky777s said:


> CV is NOT a big man. He plays small. He finishes weak inside.
> 
> Would you call Rashard Lewis a 'big man'? He's taller than Charlie.
> 
> ...


CV31, will have a much better career then Hoffa.
Charlie will play SF nect year, so him and Hoffa and Bosh will all get plenty of playing time together.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

lucky777s said:


> CV is NOT a big man. He plays small. He finishes weak inside.
> 
> Would you call Rashard Lewis a 'big man'? He's taller than Charlie.
> 
> ...


You are far too hard on Charlie.

He's played 14 games. He hasn't played like a center - but I don't think many expected him too. 

I wouldn't call Rashard a big man. But Charlie is taller, plays more in the post (not talking about the fadeaway jumpers that Rashard specializes in, more hook shots and such), and he is a better rebounder already as an inconsistent rookie. 

I expect him to get abused by bigger, stronger opponents. He has a lot to learn. He's obviously going to struggle as a rookie. Why don't you realize that?


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

SkywalkerAC said:


> OK, I'm going to try to make sense of this.
> 
> 1) You only need two big men and we've got them in CV and Bosh.
> 
> ...


You only need to DEVELOP 2 big men. Why waste time and resources on developing a future role player? Hoffa's potential is limited. Projects become future superstars. That's why they're called projects. Role players should only need polishing. I'm sure Toronto has better things to do than nuturing the next Chris Mihm.


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

WTChan said:


> You only need to DEVELOP 2 big men. Why waste time and resources on developing a future role player? Hoffa's potential is limited. Projects become future superstars. That's why they're called projects. Role players should only need polishing. I'm sure Toronto has better things to do than nuturing the next Chris Mihm.


dont forget...when we drafted Hoffa we were trying to fill a need....i think Rob is a very good judge of talent from what ive seen in Jose/Charlie/Joey i think Babcock knew exactly what kind of player Hoff would become...he prolly hasnt reached that yet....but if Hoff got to be like a Brad Miller i would be exstatic....that is exactly what this teams needs...a bruiser who will fight inside and make ROOM for the twin towers of Bosh and Villanueva to operate inside...and on the defensive end...he is there to not only to rebound but jsut be an intimidating center..for swignmen and other centers to fear if they are coming into the lane...leave the rebounding/blocking to Bosh and Villy Hoffa is going to be there fully to guard and let the opposing big man that Bosh or VIlly cant guard ie an Elton Brand/ALonzo mouring/brad miller...the big physical guys....and what do u mean u dont need good role players...good role players win u gaames in the playoff see Steve Kerr/Derek FIsher/Robert Horry..and if this team needs to develop one so be it....


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## [email protected] (Sep 27, 2005)

WTChan said:


> Araujo doesn't fit my idea for the Raptors. He's slow and unathletic. With CV at the 5, the Raptors can be an uptempo team. With a good PG, the Raptors can have a frontcourt variation of Jersey's Kidd/Carter/Jefferson. The most important thing for a fastbreak team is athletic bigs. CV can be that athletic center that starts AND finishes breaks. Calderon could be the PG to create those alley-oops, but I haven't seen him play, so I wouldn't know.


you're saying Villanueva can bang with the big men of today? i dont think so. offensively, he can **** on them, but defensively (which is equally, if not more important) villy cant stick with them! he's perfect at the 3, i'd say, which is why we need people like araujo with a weight. he's also more athletic than people think.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

WTChan said:


> You only need to DEVELOP 2 big men. Why waste time and resources on developing a future role player? Hoffa's potential is limited. Projects become future superstars. That's why they're called projects. Role players should only need polishing. I'm sure Toronto has better things to do than nuturing the next Chris Mihm.



Chris Mihm might not be a star, but I would take his numbers from a starting centre on the Raps. He will give you the odd 15 and 10 night, block a few shots, and plays his role. Not every player on a team can be an allstar.....what kind of paly do you expect from Hoffa anyway? If he could average 7.5 and 7 I would say that is great!


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## The Truth IV (Nov 3, 2005)

If you think Araujo has any chance of becoming Chris Mihm or Brad Miller you are absolutely insane.
What you see is what you get with Araujo - he's 25 or 26 who played major minutes in a first rate 
division 1 conference. He's not a raw international prospect who has only quit playing soccer to take up basketball 3 years ago.

The guy has absolutely no clue on defense - and he lacks the athleticism to compensate for the non-existent basketball IQ. If that hasn't clicked in already, it's never going to.

I do see limited potential on the offensive end - his shooting form is good for a big man.
But I don't think he'll ever get a chance to develop on offense because his defense will keep him off the court and soon enough, out of the league.

I hope I'm wrong though ....


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

non-existent basketball IQ
------
I'm not a fan of Hoffa and don't think he'll ever be much more then a fringe starter, but he actually does have quite a high bball IQ.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> you're saying Villanueva can bang with the big men of today? i dont think so. offensively, he can **** on them, but defensively (which is equally, if not more important) villy cant stick with them! he's perfect at the 3, i'd say, which is why we need people like araujo with a weight. he's also more athletic than people think.


Araujo is worse than CV at defense. I'd rather have a light center than a clueless center. Plus he's 25.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

WTChan said:


> You only need to DEVELOP 2 big men. Why waste time and resources on developing a future role player? Hoffa's potential is limited. Projects become future superstars. That's why they're called projects. Role players should only need polishing. I'm sure Toronto has better things to do than nuturing the next Chris Mihm.


Not really no. You develop as many big men as you can- definitely more than two if you have the capability. Hoffa brings a totally different kind of game and physique to the floor than our other big man and it's VERY important to our franchise that he improves. If Hoffa can become a competitive center (and he's already showing signs), we will become a competitive team, IMO. 

Projects are called projects because they become future super-stars? Wow. Just...wow.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Hoffa isn't even the best project on this roster. Pape Sow just had a dominating D-league game. If you absolutely have to have another big man, work on Sow instead.


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## [email protected] (Sep 27, 2005)

lol WTChan
i love your signature, from chapelle show
lol

you forgot...g-unit! (said by some random guy)


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

WTChan said:


> Hoffa isn't even the best project on this roster. Pape Sow just had a dominating D-league game. If you absolutely have to have another big man, work on Sow instead.


 Sow definitely needs more time in the D-League. The thing about having Hoffa here is that he has an NBA center's body, he just needs on-court NBA experience to refine his game. He'd get nothing out of being in the D-League, whereas Sow wouldn't do as much for our team right now, so he's in the D-League to get some kind of significant playing time. Hoffa also brings another dynamic to the team. Like shookem said in another thread, we're the Raptors - anything is worth trying. I'd much rather us experiment with different lineups in the frontcourt - weird lineups, try and mix and match players, especially with our young guys - than always go for an athletic frontcourt. We want a solid, fast-breaking, athletic frontcourt for the future, yes. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't leave the window of opportunity wide.

At the end of the day, we have 48 minutes at the 5, 48 minutes at the 4, and some minutes at the 3 to split up. There's no reason why Hoffa can't fit into our plans, now or hopefully for the future.


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