# MN/CHI/CLE Trade Idea



## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

the timberwolves , cavs, and bulls trade.
minnesota timberwolves trade: Wally Szczerbiak ( 17.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, and 2.6 apg)
Mike Wilks ( 3.2 ppg, 1.5 rpg, and 2.0 apg)
2004 2nd Round Pick
2006 2nd Round Pick
Timberwolves recieve: Ricky Davis ( 20.6 ppg, 4.9 rpg, and 5.5 apg)
J.R. Bremer ( 8.3 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 2.6 apg)
Change in team outlook: + 8.1 ppg, + 1.1 rpg, + 3.5 apg

Bulls trade: Jalen Rose ( 22.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 2.8 apg)
Roger Mason Jr. ( 1.8 ppg, 0.7 rpg, 0.7 apg )
2005 2nd Round Pick
Bulls recieve: Wally Szczerbiak ( 17.6 ppg, 4.6 rpg, and 2.6 apg)
Mike Wilks ( 3.2 ppg, 1.5 rpg, and 2.0 apg)
2006 2nd Round Pick
Change in team outlook: -2.6 ppg, +0.1 rpg, - 0.9 apg

Cavs trade: Ricky Davis ( 20.6 ppg, 4.9 rpg, and 5.5 apg)
J.R. Bremer ( 8.3 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 2.6 apg)
Cavs recieve: Jalen Rose ( 22.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 2.8 apg)
Roger Mason Jr. ( 1.8 ppg, 0.7 rpg, 0.7 apg )
2004 2nd Round Pick
2005 2nd Round Pick
Change in team outlook: - 5.5 ppg, -1.2 rpg, -2.6 apg

TRADE ACCEPTED
the teams that get minus stats, they get their share of 2nd round picks, so why complain?

team by team analysis
MN- obviouly gets the best of the deal at the time but not in the future. they get better defnsively and the stats they add will not exactly show itself in the future. Bremer may not play as much as he could be but gives the team more depth. 
CAVS-They may not get the best players in the trade but they get better prospects ( mason jr and pick. Gives them a metor and a scorer to lebron. It also lets Bron shine a bit more.
CHI- they finally get wally. they get a solid point guard in wilks to backup hinrich and crawford. Gives the twin towers room to blossum! They also get a great shooter in wally.

YOUR THOUGHTS?


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

Interesting. I'd rather keep Wally for an outside shooter with out new swingman. Davis is the better play probably, but about .400 shooting.

Kind of weird for the Cavs, Rose probably wants the ball.

And FWIW, Gund said they're holding onto Lebron, Boozer, and I think Davis.


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

I agree that weird seems to be the word to describe this trade. I don't think any team really rips anyone else off in this, but I don't think this helps anyone either. It's like teams are dumping players that they either don't want or are trouble off on another team while getting a similar player in return.


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## kaniffmn (Jul 29, 2003)

*terrible trade reef*

now that the t-wolves added spree...why would they want to add another swingman. if they trade wally, it's time to trade him for a banger at the power forward position so kg can start at sf and create mismatch after mismatch. i'd love to see a trade for a p.j. brown, brian grant, kurt thomas...either that...or trade wally for some solid role players a power forward off the bench and another shooter...i'm sure they could work somethin out. but i don't want to see the wolves mess this up. they got a solid team as it is with their present off-season moves. let them resign trent, wilks, and pick up jackson...and it's onto the nba finals for us.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

If the Minnesota Timberwolves trade Wally for Ricky Davis, I am going to be one pissed of individual. 

Davis is a much less effective, much more volatile version of Latrell Sprewell. 

Before we got Cassell and Spree, Wally was our top slashing wing, which simply wasn't cutting it. He was a liability in this regard. Now that we have two guys who can get to the basket, Wally's shooting ability is an invaluable asset. 

Davis is a lazy, ballhogging, chemistry problem. I want nothing to do with him.


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## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

ok jokeaward, they dont want to hold on to ricky, they want to hold on to ilgaskis( big Z), losing wally would actually help the chemistry of this team, wally is always looking for shots and is only a streaky shooter. the teams in these trades get what they want, we get a guy that can score in which spree doesnt plan to score, he plans to shut down other guards, cassell will become more of a distributer, and kandi will get boards and block shots. wally wouldnt fit the wolves game plan, a shooter really doesnt fit with all that, we need a guy who will be the second scorer and will also play defense. bremer gives us more depth even if he doesnt play a lot, can play a little bit of the 2. rose would become a mentor to lebron and help him out with playing the forward position. we all know that lebron wont average more than 15 points a game. they also get a few prospects in the trade. the bulls get a shooter to compliment their big man. hinrich becomes more of a distributer. wilks gives them another guy off the bench in that pg spot that they despretly need depth in.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> the teams in these trades get what they want, we get a guy that can score in which spree doesnt plan to score, he plans to shut down other guards, cassell will become more of a distributer, and kandi will get boards and block shots. wally wouldnt fit the wolves game plan, a shooter really doesnt fit with all that, we need a guy who will be the second scorer and will also play defense.


Come on now...Spree is here to slash to the basket. Cassell is here to penetrate and get people open looks. 

Both are going to command constant double teams. Both are more than capable of being the second scorer, much more so than Ricky Davis. 

Wally is going to get SO many open shots of these guys. We need a player who can key off of Spree & Cassell's penetration, and Ricky Davis is NOT going to do it as well as Wally. 

And please don't even try to insinuate that Ricky Davis will play defense...that's just ignorant.


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## bruno34115 (Apr 14, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>sheefo13</b>!
> ok jokeaward, they dont want to hold on to ricky, they want to hold on to ilgaskis( big Z), losing wally would actually help the chemistry of this team, wally is always looking for shots and is only a streaky shooter. the teams in these trades get what they want, we get a guy that can score in which spree doesnt plan to score, he plans to shut down other guards, cassell will become more of a distributer, and kandi will get boards and block shots. wally wouldnt fit the wolves game plan, a shooter really doesnt fit with all that, we need a guy who will be the second scorer and will also play defense. bremer gives us more depth even if he doesnt play a lot, can play a little bit of the 2. rose would become a mentor to lebron and help him out with playing the forward position. we all know that lebron wont average more than 15 points a game. they also get a few prospects in the trade. the bulls get a shooter to compliment their big man. hinrich becomes more of a distributer. wilks gives them another guy off the bench in that pg spot that they despretly need depth in.


dude how come u hate wally? ive read a couple of your posts and you seem to have something against wally.


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## kaniffmn (Jul 29, 2003)

*don't hate on sheefo*

i see what both sides are saying...but wally's fanfare went with his performance in the playoffs. he played like garbage. he lost all credibility with the fact that he cannot dribble, making foolish mistakes, and his shot was totally off. his defense is suspect. i feel all he's really good for is his shot...and as good as he is with that shot, i believe with our current additions, we need to give wally a second chance because there will not be so much pressure on him to do much. although, wally is a very cocky guy and claims he is the best on the team, yes, even better than kg. wally should get a chance to co-exist with this new team, if it doesn't work out...send him out before the trade deadline.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

I think people need to settle down about Wally's bad playoff series. It was one series. Didn't he tear up the Mavs 2 years ago? The Lakers keyed on him, and Devean George is the exact type of player that is going to give Wally fits. There arent' many that can defend him better. Wally is going to be just fine, and have a great season in 2004.


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## da Big Ticket (Jan 8, 2003)

Wally streaky?? C'mon the guy shoots 50% from the field


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## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

i dont hate wally, he doesnt like shooting anywayz, he likes slashing to the basket. out of all the guys on the team, he wont be able to fit into the game plan. he may be the guy to pull apart the team, i liked wally before but him playing with spree and cassell? that cant happen. hudson and wally in the backcourt was hard enough. that is the reason he struggled in the playoffs. wally hides on the big stage. 
c'mon people, u know if it wasnt for hudson picking up his game we wouldve been swept by the lakers. wally couldnt hit the shot and couldnt hold on to the ball. he was averaging 3 turnovers a game. c'mon people.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>sheefo13</b>!
> i dont hate wally, he doesnt like shooting anywayz, he likes slashing to the basket. out of all the guys on the team, he wont be able to fit into the game plan. he may be the guy to pull apart the team, i liked wally before but him playing with spree and cassell? that cant happen. hudson and wally in the backcourt was hard enough. that is the reason he struggled in the playoffs. wally hides on the big stage.
> c'mon people, u know if it wasnt for hudson picking up his game we wouldve been swept by the lakers. wally couldnt hit the shot and couldnt hold on to the ball. he was averaging 3 turnovers a game. c'mon people.


Exactly why can't he play with Spree and Cassell? If it's one thing Spree and Cassell will be able to do, it's take the ball to the rack. This creates double teams, which leaves Wally wide open. It's the perfect set up. 

It's certainly better than having Spree and Davis on the wings. Both will attempting to drive to the rim, and teams will simply pack in the defense and let the bricks fly. 

As far as Wally in the playoffs, did it ever occur to you that Hudson might have been getting extra space because Wally was getting extra attention?

Seriously, talk all you want about how you don't like Wally. But to say he can't play with Spree and Cassell is just uninformed. Their games complement each other perfectly. 

If you disagree, at least bother saying why...


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## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

fine, we will se when the season comes, anywayz, i didnt say i didnt like wally. i just think he wont fit


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## Tactics (Mar 6, 2003)

I'd say you wouldn't wanna do this because of Ricky Davis, why would you want someone like him on your team? He is incredibly selfish and makes his teammates worse. I also lost all respect for him because of that triple double he attempted to get by missing off of the opposing teams backboard.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>sheefo13</b>!
> fine, we will se when the season comes, anywayz, i didnt say i didnt like wally. i just think he wont fit


WHY won't he fit? How many times do I have to ask you this? Because right now, Wally fits perfectly. There isn't a player on the roster that benefited more from Minnesota's summer moves. 

Now please, tell me why he doesn't fit...


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TicN9neZ8</b>!
> I'd say you wouldn't wanna do this because of Ricky Davis, why would you want someone like him on your team? He is incredibly selfish and makes his teammates worse. I also lost all respect for him because of that triple double he attempted to get by missing off of the opposing teams backboard.


Exactly. Davis is the one that absolutely doesn't fit.


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## kaniffmn (Jul 29, 2003)

*Wally benefits the most???*

everyone who is saying wally is benefiting the most is hiding behind the simple fact that we only brought these guys in to show kevin garnett that we are serious about making this team better. these transactions benefit kevin garnett the most so he won't have to carry 90% of the workload 24-7. he had to do everything since his 3rd season in the league. nobody is more benefited by this trade then da kid. imagine what he'll be able to do now that teams cannot concentrate on only stopping him. he was able to put up numbers that nobody in the nba can duplicate in today's game...20+pts. 10+reb. and 5+ast. can't nobody in the league get those numbers but him. and he did this when he didnt have much to work with. and don't try and lie to yourself saying you are not the least bit worried about wally. he is a very easy player to stop. if you make wally dribble...it's over. that's all you have to do as an opposing player. as for that deavan george comment..deavan george? he is one of the most over-rated players that people have been talking about. he is nothing. again, he has 3 rings....right place at the right time, that's it. and the 2-years ago mavericks series...why would you say something like that when you know that mavs do not play defense...they still shot us out of the playoffs. besides it all comes back to that one question: what have you done for me lately? what has wally done lately...he helped eliminate us from the playoffs with a terrible playoff series. these moves were made for a reason, not for wally's sake...but kevin garnett's. he will benefit most because most teams will not be able to double team him any more. i rest my case.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> don't try and lie to yourself saying you are not the least bit worried about wally. he is a very easy player to stop. if you make wally dribble...it's over. that's all you have to do as an opposing player


Eh...have you been reading my posts at all? My point is that Wally isn't going to have to dribble to score anymore. Spree, Cassell, and KG draw double teams, Wally cashes from the outside ALL NIGHT LONG. He is going to have twice as much space to shoot as he did last year, and Wally's game thrives on space. 

I shouldn't have to post the same argument 5 times in one thread and still have people posting as if I never made it in the first place. Seriously people...




> deavan george? he is one of the most over-rated players that people have been talking about. he is nothing.


Wally's physical advantage comes in that he's either taller, stronger, or in some extreme cases, quicker than most everybody in the league. Devean George is one of the few players that can at least match Wally in all 3. George is a great situational defender, and he did a number on Wally that most SF's in the league couldn't even approach. 

The moves may have been made to appease KG, but if Wally can buy into letting people create shots for him, he will benefit just as much. 

These moves make Wally's weaknesses less glaring, and allow him to focus on his strengths. End of story.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

as a Bulls fan i'd do it


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## kaniffmn (Jul 29, 2003)

*um...*

if wally's this beast you claim he is...why wasn't he on the all star team last year? he's bigger, stronger, and don't flatter yourself, he isn't very quick at all but you claim he is...he should be in a league of his own at the 3-spot is basically what you are saying. he'll get more looks at the basket, but you don't make the shots for him...he's the one who has to make em'. and who's to say what he does with this newfound talent that surrounds him...how is he going to take on this new role? when people come and take things away from you, you don't like that very much...it comes to a point of control that he won't have this year. and him being a cocky player, that may take away from his game. you need to look at it from all sides...sure he'll get more open looks, but you don't know if they'll coexist. they look good as hell on paper...but you have yet to see them all play together and who's going to do what. last i recalled, the season hasn't started, so we'll see exactly how wally responds to this situation when it the regular season arrives...you still didn't answer my last question...what has wally done lately??


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> if wally's this beast you claim he is...why wasn't he on the all star team last year?


So you have to be on the all-star team to be an effective player...
I don't see the great Ricky Davis on the all-star team, though. Maybe I am mistaken...




> he's bigger, stronger, and don't flatter yourself, he isn't very quick at all but you claim he is...


I never claimed Wally was quick. Don't bother responding to my posts if you won't even argue legitimately. I said Wally is almost always either faster, stronger, or quicker than his opponent, and this is true. I even quantified the quicker part by saying in "extreme cases" 

And to prove my point, how many 6-8, 230 pounders are quicker than Wally Szczerbiak? 



> but you don't make the shots for him...he's the one who has to make em'.


Listen to yourself...

This is a guy who shoots 50% from the floor, and rarely ventures inside of 15 feet. And you are questioning whether he can make the shots? 



> how is he going to take on this new role? when people come and take things away from you, you don't like that very much...it comes to a point of control that he won't have this year. and him being a cocky player,


LIKE I HAVE SAID in EVERY post I have made on this thread, Wally would have to accept a different sort of role. But in the end, it would be better for Wally Szczerbiak...



> sure he'll get more open looks, but you don't know if they'll coexist. they look good as hell on paper...but you have yet to see them all play together and who's going to do what. last i recalled, the season hasn't started, so we'll see exactly how wally responds to this situation when it the regular season arrives...


OF COURSE they look good on paper! That's what we are discussing here, man! There's nothing else to discuss! The regular season hasn't started, so all we can do is speculate. And informed speculation (Wally fits in on paper) is much more relevant than uninformed speculation (wally sucked in a playoff series, so he's bound to be a fail from here on out).

My ENTIRE rationale for posting on this thread was to show that Wally fits on paper. Nothing more. 



> what has wally done lately??


He sucked in a playoff series. I feel sorry for you if you honestly think that means Wally has to be traded.

Of course nobody has EVER bounced back from a bad playoff series before...so maybe I'm just thinking wishfully.


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## kaniffmn (Jul 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>blabla97</b>!
> I said Wally is almost always either faster, stronger, or quicker than his opponent, and this is true.
> And to prove my point, how many 6-8, 230 pounders are quicker than Wally Szczerbiak?
> 
> your love for wally szczerbiak astounds me...this debate goes far beyond talking about who fits in best and gets the most out of this trade...you are talking about wally like he's jordan or something...where he has a mismatch every single game. at 6'8, 230 lbs. he would be playing the small forward position i'm assuming. and i have a list of players that i want you to tell me that they aren't better than wally. like i said, this isn't about fitting in on the wolves best anymore, this is about you're fascination with wally's game. and at small forward there are several players i can name that would matchup just as well against him...pippen, wells, artest, big dog, jefferson, stephen jackson, bruce bowen, rip or clifford robinson, odom, van horn, mashburn, marion, peja, i could name more. they may not all be 6'8 230 lbs, but they can all guard and matchup with wally. but what it sounds like to me, is you are making wally out to be a top level nba small forward. i happen to think wally is a decent player, that playoff series said alot and i sure hope he worked on his dribbling all summer just to make sure it won't happen like that again. you got to look at it from both sides of the court.


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## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Might be a nice idea. It probly still can't happen yet, because we can't trade for Ricky for a year after our offersheet, i don't remember when that was exactly though. I woul dmuch rather have us try to get Ron Artest. I would love that, with Wally leavin of course.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> your love for wally szczerbiak astounds me...this debate goes far beyond talking about who fits in best and gets the most out of this trade...you are talking about wally like he's jordan or something...


This, my friend, is overraction. 

This thread started because Sheefo claimed that we needed to get rid of Wally, and get Ricky Davis. I claimed that Wally fit in much better than Ricky with all the recent trades. 

There is nothing more I am trying to say. The guy isn't an all-star, isn't Michael Jordan, and I've said it in nearly every post since my original one on the thread. 

And yet you STILL won't stay on the topic of how Wally fits with this team. 



> where he has a mismatch every single game. at 6'8, 230 lbs. he would be playing the small forward position i'm assuming. and i have a list of players that i want you to tell me that they aren't better than wally.


How the heck do you think people score 15-18 ppg, man? It's called a mismatch! 

List away, please...



> like i said, this isn't about fitting in on the wolves best anymore, this is about you're fascination with wally's game.


Show me ONE sentence of ANYTHING I have written in this thread that would lead you to indicate that I am talking about anything more than Wally fitting in. 



> and at small forward there are several players i can name that would matchup just as well against him...
> pippen, wells, artest, big dog, jefferson, stephen jackson, bruce bowen, rip or clifford robinson, odom, van horn, mashburn, marion, peja, i could name more.


Of these guys, Artest, Jefferson, Bowen, Odom, and Marion could probably do a decent job guarding Wally. None will be able to regularly shut him down like George did. The fact that you list Big Dog or Peja as being able to shut down anybody is a joke. 



> they may not all be 6'8 230 lbs, but they can all guard and matchup with wally.


NOT to the level that Devean George can. 



> but what it sounds like to me, is you are making wally out to be a top level nba small forward.


I'm really NOT saying that at all. Wally is a top-notch SCORING small forward. There aren't many guys he can't SCORE on in this league. That's because he's 6-8 and shoots better than just about anybody in the league. Overall, he's probably slightly better than average as a starter, in the 10-15 range of SF's in the league. 



> i happen to think wally is a decent player, that playoff series said alot and i sure hope he worked on his dribbling all summer just to make sure it won't happen like that again. you got to look at it from both sides of the court.


Of course you think Wally is a decent player. It's because he is a decent player. Ricky Davis is a decent player as well, who doesn't fit in with our current team the way that Wally does. It's all I'm saying, and I'm sticking to that.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

While I agree that Wally is a much better fit for the Wolves with the recent trades and therefore this deal really doesn't make sense for them. I also believe that you all are vastly underating Davis' ability. The Cavs would not do this trade Davis and Jalen while similar players (Jalen is better at present) Jalen makes 2 and 1/2 times as much as Davis. In addition Davis is only 23 to Jalens 30 years old. While this deal isn't horrible for the Cavs it is unnecessary and ultimately expensive.

I doubt very seriously if this deal would even work against the CBA.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Yeah, this deal doesn't make sense for the Cavs, either. Rose will be getting ready to retire by the time the team is ready to make a playoff run. Davis, Wagner, Miles, and James is certainly overkill at the wings, and Jalen Rose is most certainly a better player than Davis, the Cavs would be quite dumb to trade a young, talented player for a high-priced veteran who has a reputation as a malcontent. 

Davis should go for a true PG or a big man. 

The trade really doesn't make sense for the Bulls either, as they are in a position where they can start winning some games, and don't need another guy who will demand a whole ton of shots.


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