# OT: Why is scoring so important to so many?



## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Before I get into the topic, in celebration of my 500th post, I'd like to thank all the people that consider me to be an egotistical jerk because if it wasn't for you and your responses...I wouldn't be at this mark so quickly, LOL. Thank you again for being wrong and me being so right...all of the time, LOL. But in all seriousness...

I am curious why so many people tend to worship scorers and scoring? I understand that with all the factors of this game, the game is ultimately boiled down to who scores the most points. Still, I'm just baffled by the fact that people automatically or subconscientiously determine the best player on a team to be it's best. Evidence A, Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen.

As soon as I posted those two names, I bet 75% of the people who read this felt that I am completely out of line for even mentioning the assumption that Jordan may have not been the best player on his team. Jordan without a doubt was ONE OF THE BEST to play this game but outside of scoring and defense, what more did he really do? I'm not trying to minimize his accomplishments because that would just be foolish considering the level at which he played defense and scored the ball. To that though, I submit to you the fact that Pippen not only had to score at an impressive clip for the Bulls to win but had the duel responsibility of finding players in their comfort zone, rebound the ball, play the opposing teams best offensive player (1-4), etc. The only thing Jordan was really a clear cut best at, was his ability to score the ball and even that I'd have to wonder whether Pippen could approach him at considering Pippen did not get nearly as much focus offensively as Jordan did. Anyway, I'm just curious what others think because I view Pippen as a player equal to Jordan at the worst.


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

TwinkieFoot said:


> Before I get into the topic, in celebration of my 500th post, I'd like to thank all the people that consider me to be an egotistical jerk because if it wasn't for you and your responses...I wouldn't be at this mark so quickly, LOL. Thank you again for being wrong and me being so right...all of the time, LOL. But in all seriousness...
> 
> I am curious why so many people tend to worship scorers and scoring? I understand that with all the factors of this game, the game is ultimately boiled down to who scores the most points. Still, I'm just baffled by the fact that people automatically or subconscientiously determine the best player on a team to be it's best. Evidence A, Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen.
> 
> As soon as I posted those two names, I bet 75% of the people who read this felt that I am completely out of line for even mentioning the assumption that Jordan may have not been the best player on his team. Jordan without a doubt was ONE OF THE BEST to play this game but outside of scoring and defense, what more did he really do? I'm not trying to minimize his accomplishments because that would just be foolish considering the level at which he played defense and scored the ball. To that though, I submit to you the fact that Pippen not only had to score at an impressive clip for the Bulls to win but had the duel responsibility of finding players in their comfort zone, rebound the ball, play the opposing teams best offensive player (1-4), etc. The only thing Jordan was really a clear cut best at, was his ability to score the ball and even that I'd have to wonder whether Pippen could approach him at considering Pippen did not get nearly as much focus offensively as Jordan did. Anyway, I'm just curious what others think because I view Pippen as a player equal to Jordan at the worst.


1) People don't necessarily worship scorers. There are plenty of people who get worshiped for reasons other than scoring and some of them perhaps shouldn't. Guys like Ben Wallace who are completely and totally one dimensional get mentioned as potential all-star candidates. The Pistons are still one of if not the top tier teams in the east and the Bulls haven't improved at all. Dwight Howard is worshiped as a beast for his rebounding abilities, made the All-Star team, and really is a fringe all-star player. There are players like Steve Nash who are known for distributing the ball more so than shooting. Yes, there are cases where the scorer gets way too much credit ala Carmello Anthony, who doesn't do much of anything other than shoot, but it works every way. Most of the players that worship the Carmello Anthony types typically tend to be a completely different demographic than the type who'd rather have Dwight Howard, so depending on where you're from depends on what type of player gets the most recognition. I think that the middle-American areas tend to focus more on defensive-based players and post based players while the urban areas will always tailor to the slasher/scorer type player. That's mostly the reason I see for the NBA's value depreciating in the eyes of a lot of fans. The inner-cities will always love basketball, while suburbia and rural areas lose interest very easily if their demands aren't met, much like myself.

2) Isn't this a bit hypocritical coming from the person who declares Eddy Curry as a franchise player? All he can do is score in the paint and absolutely nothing else.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Wow........just ...wow*

Jordan did everything that was needed...when it was needed. He could handle and pass. First team all defense. Rebounded when needed. The whole offense flowed through HIM, not Pippen. Pippen was a great player in his own right but not the scorer or clutch scorer that MJ was. Pippen lived of the attention that MJ garnered. Jordan was unstoppable. He also had the mental strength to win. He simply would not let his team be denied. That may have been his biggest asset. I can think of nobody that compares other than Bird and Magic. Our own Isiah was pretty good in that regard as well. To ask the question of what else did he really do is to admit that you understand very little about the subtle aspects of the game. Either that or you are trying to get a rise out of folks. My question to you would be: "What did he NOT do?"


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

I tend to agree that people tend to look at scoring and scoring stats and tend to make players more important than they are, and you have to look no further than the current MVP Steve Nash who is wonderfully entertaining , and extremely efficient and dominant offensive player , but he cant play defense to save his life and no one really cares for some strange reason .

could a guy like kobe could never get away with that , imagine if Shaq ouldn't play defense ever , how would he be viewed?

I could even tie that in to the knicks but i'll save that for another time.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Wow........just ...wow*



alphaorange said:


> *Jordan did everything that was needed...when it was needed.* He could handle and pass. First team all defense. Rebounded when needed. The whole offense flowed through HIM, not Pippen. Pippen was a great player in his own right but not the scorer or clutch scorer that MJ was. Pippen lived of the attention that MJ garnered. Jordan was unstoppable. He also had the mental strength to win. He simply would not let his team be denied. That may have been his biggest asset. I can think of nobody that compares other than Bird and Magic. Our own Isiah was pretty good in that regard as well. To ask the question of what else did he really do is to admit that you understand very little about the subtle aspects of the game. Either that or you are trying to get a rise out of folks. My question to you would be: "What did he NOT do?"


By the same measure, Pippen did everything that was needed...when it was needed. The only thing you mentioned that Pippen didn't do and TRUMP Jordan at was scoring the ball and the clutch shots. Thing is that we never really saw what Pippen could do in his prime offensively because the system forced him to defer to Jordan. 

Plus, it's easy to hype Jordan up as "unstoppable, mentally strong, etc." yardy yardy yardy. That doesn't take much intellect or understanding of the game because some TV commerical could have told you that. Honestly, how many guys had a 53 win team sitting behind them when they didn't even play? Obviously Jordan had guys to work with that could easily made him a better player. Would things be different for him if he had the current Lakers team and didn't have another top 50 player of all time next to him? Me thinks yes, and me thinks that Jordan wouldn't be known as the Jordan we believe him to be today. That would make me question is aura because a player should be the same kind of player or recognized as that player no matter how piss poor their team may be; ie Kobe being Kobe, Wilt being Wilt, Bird being Bird, Magic being Magic, etc.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Nash has no weaknesses....*

none. No one runs a team like he does and he is defensively solid. Not great but solid. He is simply the BEST PG in the game right now and you'd be hard-pressed to name one that EVER played better than he is right now. Two MVPs and Bill Russel's endorsement (who knows a thing or two about great PGs) of his awards is enough for most people. 

Spin Pippen all you want but to compare him to Jordan in any meaningful way is an exercise in ignorance. Replace MJ with Barkley and they don't get past the Knicks. Replace Pippen with Barkley and the Bulls whipceverybody's butt as usual. MJ was the man.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Nash has no weaknesses....*



alphaorange said:


> none. No one runs a team like he does and he is defensively solid. Not great but solid. He is simply the BEST PG in the game right now and you'd be hard-pressed to name one that EVER played better than he is right now. Two MVPs and Bill Russel's endorsement (who knows a thing or two about great PGs) of his awards is enough for most people.
> 
> Spin Pippen all you want but to compare him to Jordan in any meaningful way is an exercise in ignorance. *Replace MJ with Barkley and they don't get past the Knicks.* Replace Pippen with Barkley and the Bulls whipceverybody's butt as usual. MJ was the man.


the scottie led bulls almost beat the knicks with pete myers ...and even then it took a phantom call from hue hollins to make it possible.

are you of the opinion that barkley=pete myers?...if not i think you need to rethink your stance.

and nash has weaknesses , there is a reason why the mavs are better without him and the duo of jason terry and devin harris is why ...one is a better off the ball player and the other is a far better defender...both give up the ball and allowed Dirk to be the MVP candidate he is now.

the NBA literally has had to change the rules of the game for nash to be as good as he is .

you cant touch perimeter players outside the paint anymore ...when you could nash wore down pretty easily .

they dont call moving picks anymore , so now any1 can set them because you dont have to stand your ground when there is contact , boris diaw basically blocks for nash like an offensive tackle.

Zone defenses , which nash can tear up because he is such a good shooter but can hide his flaws defensively...which he still has despite what you think , he was never a good defender , and pg's who never defended well dont just start around 34 to play defense.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*More drivel.......*

The same rules that help Nash, help all other guards as well. Only very strong guards could fend off hand-checking. There is a reason they changed the rule and if you are the student of the game you claim to be you would know why. In case you don't, I'll tell you. The players became far larger and stronger and hand checks became a method of impeding a player's progress rather than a tactic of "location". That the Mavs are better without him is speculation. They have a better roster and an improved Dirk, as well as a better coach. I believe it was more a matter of money than anything else.

To even hint that Pippen was in the same class as Jordan is not worth responding to. That is just a *******s statement. He is not considered a lock as top 3 and perhaps the best player ever by his peers for nothing. Where do you think they rate Pippen? Maybe top 50...maybe 40. The fact that you even argue this says more about your lack of insight than anything else...wow. Post that on another board and see where that gets you. I'm being kind.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: More drivel.......*



alphaorange said:


> The same rules that help Nash, help all other guards as well. Only very strong guards could fend off hand-checking. There is a reason they changed the rule and if you are the student of the game you claim to be you would know why. In case you don't, I'll tell you. The players became far larger and stronger and hand checks became a method of impeding a player's progress rather than a tactic of "location". That the Mavs are better without him is speculation. They have a better roster and an improved Dirk, as well as a better coach. I believe it was more a matter of money than anything else.
> 
> To even hint that Pippen was in the same class as Jordan is not worth responding to. That is just a *******s statement. He is not considered a lock as top 3 and perhaps the best player ever by his peers for nothing. Where do you think they rate Pippen? Maybe top 50...maybe 40. The fact that you even argue this says more about your lack of insight than anything else...wow. Post that on another board and see where that gets you. I'm being kind.



Reading is fundamental , look at the thread and find where I said they were the same player or even the same class ...I just dont happen to diefy jordan as some do .

he had flaws , flaws that teams took advantage of pretty easily throughout his 1st 7 years .

he is not perfect , I have seen him shut down and I have seen him lit up , I've seen him outsmarted and outplayed , I even saw dennis rodman draw 6 fouls on him in a quarter , (4 off. 2 defensive) in a bulls loss...

he was a great , great player but he was not some incomparable force that no one could ever stop .

he needed a team to be successful, he needed a great coach to truly harness his abilities in a team performance , not as a 1 man show.

And he did need pippen, without Pip, MJ wouldn't have been the guy he is now in people's eyes , he had to be 28 by the time he won his 1st title , and people were still saying he wasn't alot of things because up until then he had great challenges and more often than not he and his team faultered , they faultered against the pistons for 3 straight years , they faultered against the celts , MJ put up great #'s but they never won a game.

Pippen was simply the best at his position in the game while boarding like PF , passing like a pg , while possibly the best defending non-center of all time although thats debateable , he is definitely in the top 3.

without pippen the other guys weren't going to be as good , because he was an expert at keeping them involved even though him and jordan combined for 50+ a game...Jordan had proven quite a few times he wasn't up to that task , in fact Phil jackson used to concoct schemes to keep MJ away from the ball early in the shot clock because he tended to shoot it too much and too early thus less involving the rest of the players....And it had to be Pippen because MJ has quite a rep for destroying Pg's their games and their confidence , thats why eventually they settled on paxson and later ron harper and strayed away from traditional point guards except for BJ armstrong and during the 3 peats he generally only ran the offense while MJ and pippen were out the game because Jordan generally played head games with point guards.

even as a wizard no point guard had the ball enough to garner more than 3.8 assists 

at the onset of the rule changes , the best pg's were the very strong ones if you hadn't noticed, baron davis , steve francis , jason kidd, steph marbury and of course steve nash and allen iverson , but nash was not some1 you could say was the best of the lot , in fact he was for the most part considered about the 5th best pg in the league give or take a spot depending on year the previous few.

you'll notice the ones that power was a big part of their game are very much diminished in impact over the past 3 years and the ones that weren't have fared well over the past 3 years, and there has been an emergence of small quick point guards(chris paul , tony parker and if you aren't one of them you better be able to shoot really well to really make an impact)...its not a coincedence.

mavs last year with nash 52 wins...ousted in 1st round 4-1

1st yr. without nash 58 wins ousted in 2nd round
2nd yr without nash 60 wins , beaten in finals
3rd yr. currently 50-9...as of this post winning against the nets .

seems like they are better without nash to me. and the team nash had was pretty good antione walker , antawn jamison, and 18.6 a game from mike finley plus a host of others , josh howard , daniels when he was playing great , that dirk character...if nash was so great i doubt this would even be close but instead they won 6 more games , go compare how the lakers have done since they traded shaq and unlike the mavs they actually got some good talent back ...the mavs got nothing back and are playing better .

but fine believe what you want , enjoy the delusions.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Your post is tripe....*

Jordan was NEVER shut down. For your reading pleasure:

"Even contemporaneous superstars recognized the unparalleled position of Jordan. Magic Johnson said, "There's Michael Jordan and then there is the rest of us." Larry Bird, following a playoff game where Jordan dropped 63 points on the Boston Celtics in just his second season, appraisal of the young player was: "God disguised as Michael Jordan.

A brief listing of his top accomplishments would include the following: Rookie of the Year; Five-time NBA MVP; Six-time NBA champion; Six-time NBA Finals MVP; Ten-time All-NBA First Team; Nine time NBA All-Defensive First Team; Defensive Player of the Year; 14-time NBA All-Star; Three-time NBA All-Star MVP; 50th Anniversary All-Time Team; Ten scoring titles -- an NBA record and seven consecutive matching Wilt Chamberlain; Retired with the NBA's highest scoring average of 30.1ppg."

And...."Three games into his second season, he broke a bone in his left foot. He was voted to the All-Star team but could not play as he was sidelined for 64 games. However, he came back late in the year to score a NBA playoff-record 63 points in a first-round game against the Celtics. The Bulls lost that game 132-131 in double-overtime and the series in a sweep, but Jordan averaged 43.7 ppg in the series. If there were any doubters to that point about Jordan's ability, surely there were no more."

The Pistons even came up with the "Jordan Rules" to prevent him from being the deciding factor in their series'. He scored in double figures an amazing 840 games in a row at one point....breaking another of Wilts records.

His career: 33.4 6.4 5.7 2.1

Pippens: 16.1 6.4 5.2 1.96

The numbers seem to infer that Pippen was not as good a playmaker as Jordan...not any better of a rebounder....not as good a defender...and not even remotely close as an offensive player. Take a look at Pippen without Jordan...outside of one good season (and it WAS good), he is very ordinary. If it is because he was getting older, he fell faster than anyone I can remember. As a footnote: MJ's number would have been in another stratosphere had he not retired those two seasons and been out 64 games in his second year. Pippen was a nice player but if he had to be the focus of a defense every game for his career, he would not be top 50. I hope he sends MJ a Christmas card every year. You took a lot of liberties posting your beliefs as facts.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Your post is tripe....*



alphaorange said:


> Jordan was NEVER shut down. For your reading pleasure:
> 
> "Even contemporaneous superstars recognized the unparalleled position of Jordan. Magic Johnson said, "There's Michael Jordan and then there is the rest of us." Larry Bird, following a playoff game where Jordan dropped 63 points on the Boston Celtics in just his second season, appraisal of the young player was: "God disguised as Michael Jordan.
> 
> ...


i remember doug christe doing it , he kept Mj to 0 points in the 2nd half of a game the bulls lost against the raptors in 96-97.

i already mentioned when rodman doing it (personally fouling him out does quite easily since not even jordan can score from the bench ) you are full of craziness , he wasn't perfect , he missed more than half his shots and more than 2/3 of his 3 pointers, he cant guard every1, he is not what you want to make him out to be .

i can pull out similar quotes about bird, wilt, russell , kareem dr. j all time greats tend to have things like that said about them even from their contemporaries , no one is saying he wasn't great , because he was .

but he wasn't a better playmaker than Pippen , or defender , heck he didn't even dunk the ball as much a pippen during the title years despite the highlights filling your head with otherwise...If you doubt me i suggest you read books from guys actually covering the team like Ron lazerby or Sam Smith they are filled with quotes from coaching staff, players, League execs, Bulls management that will tell you the same thing in much more graphic detail.

he was a great all around player and he could do alot , he was best at scoring, just like MJ hurt many of his career avg. by playing so long , so did Wilt , and kareem , Wilt especially would have some rather untouchable records if he had retired earlier or not changed the focus of his game after 8 or so years.

and pippen was hurt pretty bad in the 6th title run , he lost over 2 feet off his vertical according to the strength and conditioning coach at the time , he also had back surgery(not his 1st back surgery BTW) at the conclusion of the season , physically he just wasn't the same after that...and of course aging had alot to do with it.

magic made the all star team without playing and had HIV, not playing and making the all star team has been done before , its a popularity contest .

The jordan rules were called that but was basically a zone defense with an empasis on making Mj beat them by himself , they played on his lack of belief in his teammates ...only when trusted them did they beat them , in rather crushing fashion.

the fact that they knew exactly how to play MJ for years wasn't something that adds to his legacy.

but live in a fantasy world if it makes you feel better.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*More garbage...*

The fact is that Pippen is a nice player....probably top 50. But he in no way is near the caliber of MJ...not near. And maybe you should read, too. The Jordan rules were much more than a disguised zone. Point me to where you read that. Dude, Pippen couldn't guard everyone either. He guarded guards and SFs. He may have guarded PFs rarely but I don't recall seeing it and I doubt very seriously you can, either. Rodman guarded the PFs when he was there and Grant when he was there. Give me examples, please. Tell me again how Rodman foulerd Jordan out. He must have had 6 offensive fouls since Rodman had no game on offense. As I recall Dumars guarded MJ, anyway. Since you make a ton of statements as fact, please furnish some links or some other source. I used to expect more from you.......Pretty much all you've offered on this is your opinion and some vague "facts" that i can't find anywhere.....


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: More garbage...*



alphaorange said:


> The fact is that Pippen is a nice player....probably top 50. But he in no way is near the caliber of MJ...not near. And maybe you should read, too. The Jordan rules were much more than a disguised zone. Point me to where you read that. Dude, Pippen couldn't guard everyone either. He guarded guards and SFs. He may have guarded PFs rarely but I don't recall seeing it and I doubt very seriously you can, either. Rodman guarded the PFs when he was there and Grant when he was there. Give me examples, please. Tell me again how Rodman foulerd Jordan out. He must have had 6 offensive fouls since Rodman had no game on offense. As I recall Dumars guarded MJ, anyway. Since you make a ton of statements as fact, please furnish some links or some other source. I used to expect more from you.......Pretty much all you've offered on this is your opinion and some vague "facts" that i can't find anywhere.....


the funny thing to me is you dont even know how ignorant you are on this subject .

Pippen guarded plenty of power forwards , in particular when paired with toni kukoc in the frontcourt, especially when the small forward was not an offensive minded one.

Pippen defended 4's on occasion when the Power forward got the starting 4 in foul trouble I've seen him on every1 from charles barkley to sam perkins heck he even defended greg ostertag during the finals when the bulls went small(that was broadcast in front over 100 countries around the world)....but you've seen so much so of course you knew that, of wait you said you hadn't , which of course makes me wonder how many bulls games in that era you actually saw , because it was a semi regular occurance Jackson loved experimenting with line ups and combinations and trying to see what chemistry could form between different players.

the jordan rules by sam smith has phil jackson and the bulls coaching staff speaking about what the Jordan rules actually was on more than 1 occasion. if you can find a better source than them by all means point them out.

rodman fouled michael jordan in a regular season of 88-89 , you dont believe me , feel free to goggle it ...oh wait let me .

when da grinch types in _rodman fouled out michael jordan_, he gets a link to the jordan rules with this intro.

*Rodman once "flopped" so effectively back in the 1988-89 season that Jordan drew six fouls in the fourth quarter to foul out in the last minute of a close loss to the Pistons.
*

here is the link

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&endeca=1&isbn=0671796666&itm=2

and i have maintained it was 4 offensive fouls and 2 defensive fouls , not 6 offensive fouls , reading really is fundamental.

but hey what do I know compared to you.

But because I am feeling lazy i simply googled "jordan rules zone" and found this another link to the jordan rules and this.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&endeca=1&isbn=0671796666&itm=2

"As for tactics, the team had to stop its headlong charge into Detroit's interior defense. The Pistons played a zone simple and effective, Jackson noted. And the Bulls had to get good shots and take them rather than crash in where they had no room to maneuver. They had to retreat better on defense, and they had to rebound.

In Game 3, they did. And it was a series again.

"Tonight," Jackson offered after the victory, "we showed that it wasn't the rules against Jordan, but that Jordan rules.""



but really all you had to do was watch the games and you would see every piston player watching jordan and shading their bodies in his direction

please educate me more about the bulls and how i have no grasp of what happened ...or are we done on this subject and you can let it go.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The "Jordan Rules" were a defensive strategy employed by the Detroit Pistons against Michael Jordan in order to contain Jordan during National Basketball Association games involving the two teams. Devised by head coach Chuck Daly in 1988, the Piston's strategy was "to play him tough, to physically challenge him and to vary its defenses so as to try to throw him off balance. Sometimes the Pistons would overplay Jordan to keep the ball from him. Sometimes they would play him straight up, more often they would run a double-team at him as soon as he touched the ball to try to force him to give it up. And whenever he went to the basket, they made sure his path was contested"[1]. The "Jordan Rules" were an instrumental aspect of the rivalry between the "Bad Boys" Pistons and Jordan's Chicago Bulls in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

(1) 1. ^ http://www.nba.com/pistons/history/bullsrivalry_030314.html

So much for the zone.......
Now Jackson no doubt made the zone comment but ask anyone else or do some further reading and you will be enlightened.

Btw, I never said you claimed Jordan got 6 offensive fouls. As you say...reading is fundamental. And fouling him out doesn't mean he stopped him. It happened in the final minute. You are maddening in your use selective stats and quotes. Lots of players foul out. It doesn't mean they were "stopped"....or even slowed down. It means they fouled out, and in this case, in the last minute. Its proof of nothing.

Now, how many points did Rodman "hold" MJ to in the game he fouled out? As you probably know he averaged 27 points against the Pistons. Thats some real shutting down....You pick one instance and try to pretend it happened regularly. Pippen never guarded PFs on any kind of regular basis. That is an outright fantasy. In fact, there is only one year that he played without a frontline PF..1995. Coincidentally, it was a bad year for the Bulls. Even when you site something, you do it selectively or are really incapable of interpreting what you see. I'm done but I'll be calling you out again...bank on it.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: More garbage...*



alphaorange said:


> The fact is that Pippen is a nice player....probably top 50. But he in no way is near the caliber of MJ...not near. And maybe you should read, too. The Jordan rules were much more than a disguised zone. Point me to where you read that. Dude, Pippen couldn't guard everyone either. He guarded guards and SFs. He may have guarded PFs rarely but I don't recall seeing it and I doubt very seriously you can, either. Rodman guarded the PFs when he was there and Grant when he was there. Give me examples, please. *Tell me again how Rodman foulerd Jordan out. He must have had 6 offensive fouls since Rodman had no game on offense.* As I recall Dumars guarded MJ, anyway. Since you make a ton of statements as fact, please furnish some links or some other source. I used to expect more from you.......Pretty much all you've offered on this is your opinion and some vague "facts" that i can't find anywhere.....


i think you did say rodman had to have drawn 6 off. fouls .

and apparently you were wrong about who _always_ guarded jordan


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

alphaorange said:


> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> The "Jordan Rules" were a defensive strategy employed by the Detroit Pistons against Michael Jordan in order to contain Jordan during National Basketball Association games involving the two teams. Devised by head coach Chuck Daly in 1988, the Piston's strategy was "to play him tough, to physically challenge him and to vary its defenses so as to try to throw him off balance. Sometimes the Pistons would overplay Jordan to keep the ball from him. Sometimes they would play him straight up, more often they would run a double-team at him as soon as he touched the ball to try to force him to give it up. And whenever he went to the basket, they made sure his path was contested"[1]. The "Jordan Rules" were an instrumental aspect of the rivalry between the "Bad Boys" Pistons and Jordan's Chicago Bulls in the late 1980s and early 1990s.
> ...


wikipedia is written by everyday folks who submit entires .

and who is alex sanchare?

I'll be taking the word of phil jackson over any entry any day over some random fellow , but if you feel better you can believe what you like...you'll just be wrong and uninformed.

as far as pippen guarding PF's i gave numerous scenerios in which he did it most of which happened outside of 94-95 , but selective reading is a gift of yours i see , sad to say even when its obvious you are wrong , I've seen Pippen guard any number of power forwards before Kukoc was even the league .

but like i said before I'm very sketical about the # of games you actually watched to even doubt that , its really one of the simpler points , its general knowledge Pjax put him on any players 1-4 on a regular basis when he felt the matchup suited him , he needed some1 shut down , or he just felt like experimenting.

you cant call me out, you dont know enough , I'm informing of this with a smile on my face , all i did was state obvious facts , and when called on just googled it and it came pretty easily , 

now can you show me something where some1 credible actually said the bulls would have been just as successful with charles barkley ?

not some random fellow who signed up to website encyclopedia spouting whatever.

i doubt it, because you are full of it. talk about pot calling kettle black.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

During the Jordan 6 Championships Rings, scoring was not important DEFENSE was. 
*Jordan, Pippin, and Grant was the best defensive 3 unit in the NBA.* 
The Bulls needed a BIG-BODY in the paint to pull off half of the athletic tricks they were capable of, that is where the trade with the Knicks came in (Oakley for Cartwright), the Knicks made a terrible trade (The Cartwright/Ewing show got 2nd round draft pick Mark Jackson the Rookie of the Year). Bill Cartwright was a double-double in a Knicks uniform. The Chicago Bulls did not need Cartwright scoring, and the triangle system was made for Cartwright (Big-Body) to pick & block oponents so his teammates could score or rebound.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

TwinkieFoot said:


> Before I get into the topic, in celebration of my 500th post, I'd like to thank all the people that consider me to be an egotistical jerk because if it wasn't for you and your responses...I wouldn't be at this mark so quickly, LOL. Thank you again for being wrong and me being so right...all of the time, LOL. But in all seriousness...
> 
> I am curious why so many people tend to worship scorers and scoring? I understand that with all the factors of this game, the game is ultimately boiled down to who scores the most points. Still, I'm just baffled by the fact that people automatically or subconscientiously determine the best player on a team to be it's best. Evidence A, Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen.
> 
> As soon as I posted those two names, I bet 75% of the people who read this felt that I am completely out of line for even mentioning the assumption that Jordan may have not been the best player on his team. Jordan without a doubt was ONE OF THE BEST to play this game but outside of scoring and defense, what more did he really do? I'm not trying to minimize his accomplishments because that would just be foolish considering the level at which he played defense and scored the ball. To that though, I submit to you the fact that Pippen not only had to score at an impressive clip for the Bulls to win but had the duel responsibility of finding players in their comfort zone, rebound the ball, play the opposing teams best offensive player (1-4), etc. The only thing Jordan was really a clear cut best at, was his ability to score the ball and even that I'd have to wonder whether Pippen could approach him at considering Pippen did not get nearly as much focus offensively as Jordan did. Anyway, I'm just curious what others think because I view Pippen as a player equal to Jordan at the worst.



You obviously dont know much about MJ beyond whatg the media showed . 

MJ did what he wanted when he wanted .There were people like you who said all he did was score so he went out and won defensive player of the year.They said he didnt pass so he went out and averaged 8 apg.They said he couldnt shoot the three so he developed a three point shot. 

Pip was not equal to MJ, he was a great player but not MJ's equal.What a lot of people who think this way dont realize is that MJ toned his game down for the betterment of the team and his own health. He would not have lasted long playing heavy minutes carrying the ridiculous type load he was carrying offensively and defensively (at one point he averaged 35 ppg 6 rpg 6 apg 3 spg 1 bpg in 40 mpg and the following year 32ppg 8rpg 8apg 3 spg and thye same amount of minutes).AS ultra competitive as MJ was he wouldnt have been able to play as long as he did at that pace. So along comes Scottie who is a great player in his own right and this allowed MJ to cut back on his load as teh Bulls were beginning to play deep into the playoffs every year now . 

The Bulls as a organization made a concerted effort to scale back Mj's load and save him from injury and keep him healthy for the playoffs.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

TRUTHHURTS said:


> You obviously dont know much about MJ beyond whatg the media showed .
> 
> MJ did what he wanted when he wanted .There were people like you who said all he did was score so he went out and won defensive player of the year.They said he didnt pass so he went out and averaged 8 apg.They said he couldnt shoot the three so he developed a three point shot.
> 
> ...


Remind me where I said that Jordan was a one dimensional player. I'd really like for you to point that out because I never made or even implied such a comment. What I did mention was the fact that Pippen was as good or better than every other category to Jordan besides scoring. That statement still stands considering all that has been stated already. The game can be changed in several different manners offensively but by no means does it mean that it is the only way to change the game. From the looks of it and the hustle plays on the floor, Pippen changed the game in more ways than Jordan.


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