# Allan Houston or Trenton Hassel



## #1BucksFan (Apr 14, 2003)

Don't think that this is a joke thread.

Allan Houston is a 2 guard who can score, and score some more. He's always among leaders in FT%, and is in my opinion among the top 3 shooters in the league. But there is the infamous Allan Houston statline, 20/2/2. A bad passer, and a horrible rebounder, his idea of defense is scoring more then the opponent.

Trenton Hassel is among the best defensive 2's in the league. He can block shots, steal, and take a guard out of a game. But he can't score well, but who has to with Sprewell, Garnett, and Cassell?

So, offense or defense?


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

Forget their games, Houston is old and injury prone. Hassell is young. He'll never be a great player, but he'll be a good defender for many years to come. Hassell.


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

Taking out intangibles like contract and injury-risk and all that, I'd take Houston without question. Hassell is a good, not great defender, but his scoring pales in comparison. I know Houston played more minutes (I think something like 36 to 30 or so), but his 19/2/2 is a whole lot more impressive than Hassell's 5/3/2. A 14 PPG difference is a lot to make up on defense.

Let's look at it this way. Let's say Hassell is a good enough defender to hold his opposition to half of their usual PPG (not that he is that good in my opinion, but it's a nice number). I'll say whoever Houston is guarding scores their normal amount of PPG -- I don't think he's quite as bad as you say as to let opponents go above their average consistently. Don't forget that Houston scores 19 a game, Hassell 5. In order for Hassell's good defense and lack of scoring to match with Houston's good scoring and lack of defense, the opposing player would have to put up an average of 28 PPG.

Houston: Opponent scores 28, Houston scores 19, net of -9
Hassell: Opponent scores 14 (1/2 of 28), Hassell scores 5, net of -9

If the opponent averages any lower than 28, the net swings in favor of Houston. Okay, I know that is very simplified, and doesn't take into account the little things like getting on a guy's nerves and throwing off the entire opposing team's offensive rhythm, but the point is that the difference in scoring is enough to make up for the defense in my opinion. Houston also spreads out your offense, improving your inside game if you have a good post player, and he prevents you from having to play 4 on 5 on that half of the court. Maybe if Hassell put up double digits consistently, or had a hot streak ability that allowed him to dump 20 points every now and then, I'd give him more consideration.

Of course, going back to my first statement, if you factor in anything like health or contract then Houston shouldn't even get consideration.


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## runbmg (May 25, 2002)

Depends on what my team needs. I'd pick Trenton.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MJG</b>!
> Taking out intangibles like contract and injury-risk and all that, I'd take Houston without question. Hassell is a good, not great defender, but his scoring pales in comparison. I know Houston played more minutes (I think something like 36 to 30 or so), but his 19/2/2 is a whole lot more impressive than Hassell's 5/3/2.


Definitely Houston, if contract is taken out. Hassell's defense is overrated. He's a good defender, but not a shut-down defender. He's got effectively no offensive game. He's a good bench player to have, a substandard starter.

Houston is a tremendous shooter, decent slasher and passer. His defense is not very good, but his offensive value is both useful and rare. Non-scrub dead-eye shooters are rare...players like Ray Allen, Dirk Nowitzki, Peja Stojakovic, Allan Houston.

With contracts included, Houston is the worst value in the league but Hassell is not light on the wallet. He got tremendously overpaid this summer, for what he does. If I were going to be over the cap anyway, I'd take Houston even *with* contracts included (as a GM, not necessarily as an owner). It doesn't matter how much you go over the cap, $1 or $10 million...you still can't sign free agents. Meanwhile, Houston will actually deliver more value on the court.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Meanwhile, Houston will actually deliver more value on the court.


.... For 50 games a year. Is he still more valuable if you only get to use him for little over half the games per year? (and for only a few more years, because of his age).


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> .... For 50 games a year. Is he still more valuable if you only get to use him for little over half the games per year? (and for only a few more years, because of his age).


His last five years, game played:

99-00: 82 games
00-01: 78 games
01-02: 77 games
02-03: 82 games
03-04: 50 games

What in that record suggests he's injury-prone? Until last season, he had only missed a game here or there. That's not a record of being often hurt, or a player likely to miss a lot of games. He happened to be hurt this last season.

That aside, even if it *were* true that he can only be counted on for 50 games a season, I'd rather have 50 games from a quasi-star than 82 from a substandard starter like Hassell.

Players like Hassell are a dime a dozen. Tariq Abdul-Wahad used to be just such a player and, in fact, played better defense than Hassell, in my opinion. Now, Abdul-Wahad is barely on the fringes. The lesson is you pick up these guys to fill out a roster, commit very little in time and money to them and let them fade away. You don't lock them up to long-term big deals, when they're overhyped due to having been on a top team, and then repent at leisure.

Of course, the contract given Houston was silly, too, but at least he'll give some value on the court that can't be replicated easily.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

depends what you need. If i am the heat, and i need a shooter ill go with Houston, but if im the Rockets lets say and i need a perimiter defender/role player ill take Hassell


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> What in that record suggests he's injury-prone? Until last season, he had only missed a game here or there. That's not a record of being often hurt, or a player likely to miss a lot of games. He happened to be hurt this last season.


He's not a player who picks up injuries here and there all the time, no, but he's a player who just suffered a serious injury that he'll likely never fully recover from. Houston is suffering from arthritic knees, which means his knees are torn up.

Also, it was reported just a couple of months ago that he still can't play without discomfort. You know why? Playing on arthritic knees is not good for the knee, it makes it worse with time. He's 33, his glory days are over.



> That aside, even if it were true that he can only be counted on for 50 games a season, I'd rather have 50 games from a quasi-star than 82 from a substandard starter like Hassell.


Houston won't be a quasi star anymore. He's an above average starter who's a great shooter, but horribly defensively, old, and has bad knees.

Also you refuse to acknowledge the age gap. Houston is 33, Hassell is 25. You'd rather have Houston's good to great offense (I think it'll be closer to good) for 2 maybe 3 more years, than Hassell's average all-around game and above average defense for 7 to 10 years?



> Players like Hassell are a dime a dozen. Tariq Abdul-Wahad used to be just such a player and, in fact, played better defense than Hassell, in my opinion. Now, Abdul-Wahad is barely on the fringes. The lesson is you pick up these guys to fill out a roster, commit very little in time and money to them and let them fade away. You don't lock them up to long-term big deals, when they're overhyped due to having been on a top team, and then repent at leisure.
> 
> Of course, the contract given Houston was silly, too, but at least he'll give some value on the court that can't be replicated easily.


18ppg is nice, but you can find plenty of guys out there that can do that, and plenty who'll be capable of playing a full season. What Houston does have is a great jump shot, and I agree that can't be replicated easily. But with bad knees there is reason to think his jumpshot won't be as good as it once was. You kind of need to use your knees to shoot a jump shot.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

i agree with most of pan's points - houston's liabillities are his age and contract, which are two huge ones. i think id rather get a younger, cheaper shooter + hassell


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> Also you refuse to acknowledge the age gap. Houston is 33, Hassell is 25. You'd rather have Houston's good to great offense (I think it'll be closer to good) for 2 maybe 3 more years, than Hassell's average all-around game and above average defense for 7 to 10 years?


There is *no* way Hassell is "average" all-around. He's useless offensively. He's a poor rebounder. He's an above average, but not great, defender. In no way does that make him "average" all-around. It makes him a good defender and substandard starter.

I'd rather have Houston's good to great offense for 2-3 years than Hassell's overall poor play (taking everything into account) for 7 to 10 years.

Quantity is useless unless it's of above average quality. In Hassell's case, it's below average. He's simply been overhyped.



> 18ppg is nice, but you can find plenty of guys out there that can do that, and plenty who'll be capable of playing a full season. What Houston does have is a great jump shot, and I agree that can't be replicated easily.


Remains to be seen how Houston is. His jumpshot may be as good as ever, he may just have to play in some discomfort. Pain doesn't always mean a significant drop-off in ability.

But I would take the chance of Houston actually being that not-easily-replicated player, with some uncertainty, over Hassell's below average player, with total certainty.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> There is no way Hassell is "average" all-around. He's useless offensively. He's a poor rebounder. He's an above average, but not great, defender. In no way does that make him "average" all-around. It makes him a good defender and substandard starter.


Houston's one of the worst rebounders in the league, much worse than Hassell. Hassell's not a good offensive player by any stretch, but he's also not useless. He's a good passer, and shoots 46% on mostly jumpshots. Not a good three point shooter. Definitely below average, but he's not a scrub. I think that makes him average all around. Houston's a horrible rebounder, bad defender. That doesn't effect you saying he's a quasi-star, though. I think it's fair to call Hassell average despite his flaws if we can call Houston quasi star with equal flaws (even if his strengths make up for it more than Hassell's).


Also, I think you underrate Hassell's defense. Just because he's been slightly overhyped doesn't mean you should undervalue his defense. If he's only above average that would put him in the 6-10 range among shooting guards. You shouldn't have any trouble coming up with 5 SGs who are better defensively. Off the top of my head, I can only say for certain that Kobe and Doug Christie are better defenders. Posey if you consider him a SG.

Regardless, I think we've hit the brick wall of starting out with different postulates: You prefer the short term better player, I prefer the long term lesser player. So, I'm going to yield from here on, good debate.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

Houston is going to be healthy and have a good comeback year. His high post game is a beautiful thing to watch in the halfcourt. Trenton Hassell Bruce Bowen etc are all nice defensive guys... they are the cherry on top to create a contender. they arent the mash potatos and gravy that a team needs. Which is why he got cut by the Bulls.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

If we're disregaurding contract... This isn't even in the same ballpark... It's not even close... It's easily Allan Houston...


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## Yyzlin (Feb 2, 2003)

Houston, but neither are exactly great shooting guards. Hassell is fairly mediocre in all aspects outside of defense, and his defense isn't nearly good enough to lift his overall game to above average. Houston, likewise, has only one strength, and that's stroking it from long distance. Outside of that, he doesn't have many redeemable qualities. Is he really better than a guy such as Wally Szczerbiak?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Houston's one of the worst rebounders in the league, much worse than Hassell. Hassell's not a good offensive player by any stretch, but he's also not useless. He's a good passer, and shoots 46% on mostly jumpshots. Not a good three point shooter. Definitely below average, but he's not a scrub. I think that makes him average all around. Houston's a horrible rebounder, bad defender. That doesn't effect you saying he's a quasi-star, though. I think it's fair to call Hassell average despite his flaws if we can call Houston quasi star with equal flaws (even if his strengths make up for it more than Hassell's).


I think Houston and Hassell are equally bad rebounders. Houston is a poor defender, Hassell is as bad or worse on offense. Houston's offense, IMO, carries a lot more value than Hassell's defense.

I agree Houston has flaws, but I wouldn't call him "average all-around," which, to me, suggests a player who's got no major weaknesses.

Houston is a valuable offensive player with a hard-to-find skill with his perimeter shooting, a decent passer and that's basically it.



> If he's only above average that would put him in the 6-10 range among shooting guards. You shouldn't have any trouble coming up with 5 SGs who are better defensively. Off the top of my head, I can only say for certain that Kobe and Doug Christie are better defenders. Posey if you consider him a SG.


In terms of perimeter defense, rather than straight position, I break things into tiers. Things don't break linearly...for example, I wouldn't say any center in the league is "great" after Shaquille O'Neal. There's a major fall-off after #1...I don't just define "great" to be the top 3 or 5.

Top Tier

Andrei Kirienko
Ron Artest
James Posey

Second Tier

Tayshawn Prince
Bruce Bowen
Doug Christie

Third Tier

Ruben Patterson
Manu Ginobili
Mickael Pietrus
Kobe Bryant

Fourth Tier

Trenton Hassell
Tariq Abadul-Wahad
Shawn Marion

That was off the top of my head, so I may have missed someone worth noting. But, basically, by the time you reach fourth tier, you're only above average, in my opinion. The first two tiers are more of the shut-down defender types (though second tier can be hit-or-miss on that score). Third tier are guys who consistently limit who they're facing. Fourth tier guys are guys who are solid and have a good chance to hold the guys they guard under their season averages, make them work a bit harder.



> Regardless, I think we've hit the brick wall of starting out with different postulates: You prefer the short term better player, I prefer the long term lesser player. So, I'm going to yield from here on, good debate.


Fair enough. I agree, it was a good debate.


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> I think Houston and Hassell are equally bad rebounders. Houston is a poor defender, Hassell is as bad or worse on offense. Houston's offense, IMO, carries a lot more value than Hassell's defense.
> ...


You'd have to add TMac to that category, as he has outscored his opponents for the last 2 years, usually holding them at least a point below their season average.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> You'd have to add TMac to that category, as he has outscored his opponents for the last 2 years, usually holding them at least a point below their season average.


Yes, that's true. In fact, I believe McGrady has the ability to be a Tier 3 or even Tier 2 guy when he's not forced to be the only player able to play offense on his team.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> You'd have to add TMac to that category, as he has outscored his opponents for the last 2 years, usually holding them at least a point below their season average.


if you single out the 5 or so possesions where he d's up a game... yes go ahead


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

If you take into account the amount of money they are getting paid.


I will definitely go for Hassel, he can better suit more teams too. Houston is a good scorer, but he will need to shoot the ball a lot to be effective. Kinda limits the typoe of players you need to surround him with. Hassel in the other hand can fit right in since he just helps rotating the ball to the other players in the offensive end.


If Houston was getting paid the same as Hassel, I would pick Houston. But he would have to be 90%-100% of his capabilities... not the current injury prone Houston.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

i think you guys are undervaluing houston's offensive ability. he's a bulk scorer, who CAN create his own shot, and who can also score efficiently (44th in ppfga in '03). he provides spacing on the floor, while also being able to fill it up. he adds alot of value to a team offensively. 

of course, when discussing his impact on minstrel's team, i will point out all his deficiencies and injuries.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

Just remember, this year Houston is coming off the bench/sharing minutes with Jamal Crawford. If you don't think it's going to help him tremendously to only play 26-29MPG instead of 36, then you're just dumb. Expect Houston to have his most productive season this year, in terms of per minute.


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