# Tank it or Not?



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

Isiah said NO, because theres no impact players in the draft. i disagree with isiah.

i say TANK IT. 

1. We have a talented team. A team that can win the atlantic, a talented core of players.
2. The atlantic sucks, we'l lose in the first round.
3. Theres several great players in this draft. If their not good for us....then theres other options.
4. next season Tim Thomas and penny have expiring contracts. Next february we can package Tim and our draft pick for a star player on a crappy team looking to blow up their team. Then see what you can get for Penny.
5. Then we can actually be a contending team.......

Good lottery choices in our area (picks 5-10)
Gerald Green- Highschool kid alot of teams would want, compared to Tracy McGrady
Tiago Splitter- i think hes overrated, but some team would take him in a trade.
the Unc guys- McCants, Felton..

doubtful guys- 
Bogut- great wing turned great center. not afraid to get dirty and is a great scorer.
Taft- another good big man....a project.

say we could pick any of these guys. we could package them with tim or penny for a disgruntled star. i believe, but nobodys gonna just tim, or just penny, so TANK!


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## JoeT020 (Jan 24, 2005)

This is looking to be a very weak lottery in comparison with other drafts, and in drafts like this, odds are the best bargains are going to be in the middle of the first round. I think a guy like Channing Frye, for example, is a diamond in the rough that might not even go in the first round at this point. I think he's projected early second round right now, but I believe after draft camps he'll move into the late first round for sure. 

I think we definitely need to draft big this draft. There's no doubt in my mind. We need to improve our frontline, because short of Sweetney and JYD, I'm not satisfied with anyone there. 

A possibility I could see is a sign-and-trade deal for Samuel Dalembert. Philly has a multitude of horrible contracts with McKie, Thomas, Skinner, Williamson, and MacCulloch, plus then Ollie and MJackson are arguably overpaid as well. We could provide them alot of salary cap relief with either TT or Penny, plus give them a serviceable replacement for Dalembert with Mohammed. 

Our biggest ways to attain improvements this offseason are our five expiring contracts (Thomas, Hardaway, Mohammed, Baker, and Norris) and the 5million MLE, which I think we can get a lot of quality players with. 

We don't have our second round pick this year, which is going to Atlanta via the TT trade. With our first rounder, our best bet is a defensive F-C like Frye or Shelden Williams, and I don't see either going in the lottery, so it's best we go for the playoffs this season. Even if we make it, we're going to have the 15th pick in all likelihood, which is still good.

A list of guys I want to look at this summer that could all possibly be had for the minimum:

PG: Frank Williams, Dan Dickau
SG/SF: Luke Walton, DerMarr Johnson
PF/C: Zaza Pachulia, Alan Henderson, Malik Allen

Short of Pachulia, no one would have any chance of getting a starting position from us on that list, but I think they'd all be great additions for our depth.

I think an offseason getting Frye, Pachulia, Dickau, and Walton would be very successful for us, especially if we can get Dalembert for Nazr and TT. The best option for Philly would be to also give us McKie and MacCulloch, who have the worst contracts of that group aforementioned.

Marbury/Dickau
Crawford/Houston/McKie
Ariza/Walton
Sweetney/Pachulia/JYD
Dalembert/Frye/KThomas

I don't think that's unrealistic.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> I don't think that's unrealistic.


I think that asking Dickau and Pachulia to sign for the minimum is pretty unrealistic, considering how good they are and their age. Both are probably worth what Maurice Williams got, and he didn't get the minimum, he got a 6 million dollar contract out of garbage time.


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## JoeT020 (Jan 24, 2005)

Ok, well we have the MLE. I said all POSSIBLY had for the minimum, but that doesn't mean we couldn't spend more on them.

Dickau, Pachulia, and Walton.

We have the MLE, which is about 5million and the LLE which is about 1.1 million, possibly more. I don't remember exactly at this point.

I don't think it's unconceivable to think that Pachulia could get a 3-4 year deal starting at 3million, Dickau get a deal starting at 2million, and Walton a deal starting at 1million. I think the Walton one is the least likely, but DerMarr Johnson could be had for that price almost definitely.

I really think every guy I listed will be a bargain this offseason, unless they break out sooner than I expect them to.

Also, saying Williams got a 6million dollar deal is slightly misleading. You fail to mention that that is over a three-year period, starting at 1.6million. Williams is probably better than Dickau, so I think what I've suggested for an offseason plan is definitely realistic.

The length of a contract doesn't really matter, but the base salary is what's most important given our cap situation.


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## SPIN DOCTOR (Oct 31, 2002)

We will give you Frank back now, you dont have a second rounder you want to part with to make it happen? 
Pax has a team option on Frankie this year for a very reasonable amount, if he feels like he can get any return I would not be very surprised if he excercises that option. He has only been in like 2 games all year, so I cant even tell how he's looking. But he appears to be in shape finally.


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## townknave (Jun 28, 2003)

Given our dire need for a backup PG, I would certainly not mind getting Frank, especially if the price were minimal like it seems it will be. 

IMO he's exactly what we could use for 10-12 minutes a night- an energetic defensive minded PG who can also keep the offense moving. Frank always seemed to play great for us.


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

i definetly would love getting frank back for a 2nd round pick. he did play awesome for us before we got marbury. he is a very energetic player who knows how to play defense EXACTLY WHAT WE NEED.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

but theres alot of good second round picks in this years draft. we can easily sign frank in the offseason. 

i think were headed in the right direction, alot of knick fans are so impatient, thinking that since were not winning now all hope is lost. Isiah built a foundation, we got a decent core now and Isiah knows what hes gonna do next year. Hes headed to europe to check out some draft possibilities. Hes not gonna make a trade this year. Next year is the year we make a another big deal

fans are so fickle, you gotta be patient. you gotta look at what we have, and what were working with. the expiring contracts of next year, and how Isiah handles them is gonna determine if isiah is a good or bad gm. we'll see.


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## JoeT020 (Jan 24, 2005)

Our 2nd round pick goes to Atlanta this year via the TT trade.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

yeah OUR second round pick. We also got a second round pick from Houston for Van Gundy


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## JoeT020 (Jan 24, 2005)

That second rounder doesn't have to be this year to my knowledge. I think it's just whenever they feel like sending it to us.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

I think tanking in our division is a mistake period. From a management point of view that is. Once you are in you can cause some noise. Lets not forget as an 8th seed the Knicks made it all the way to the finals. Our division is winnable sub .500.

Now as a fan, we may be winning to lose this season for a better pick, maybe to trade for youth, but management(s) through the Atlantic may just say... what the heck, and "not tanks".

-Petey


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> I think tanking in our division is a mistake period. From a management point of view that is. Once you are in you can cause some noise. Lets not forget as an 8th seed the Knicks made it all the way to the finals. Our division is winnable sub .500.


Let's not forget that 98-99 was one of the biggest fluke years in NBA history. The first place team and 8th place team were only seperated by 6 games. The 8th seed is not going to go through Miami, especially in a 7 game series. The 6th seed is going to be a better team than the 3rd seed. It's better to finish 6th than it is to finish 4th or 5th.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Let's not forget that 98-99 was one of the biggest fluke years in NBA history. The first place team and 8th place team were only seperated by 6 games. The 8th seed is not going to go through Miami, especially in a 7 game series. The 6th seed is going to be a better team than the 3rd seed. It's better to finish 6th than it is to finish 4th or 5th.


My point is that there are upsets, that was one of the greatest based on seeding. Whose to say that this year is not similar in some ways?

What do you think Rashidi? Haven't read if you think they should tank or not...

-Petey


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## JoeT020 (Jan 24, 2005)

I don't think we should tank it, but don't get any misconceptions about this team either. Just because we get the 8th seed doesn't mean we have a chance.

The difference between playoff teams was much smaller then than it is now, with the currently weak Eastern Conference. Heck, the way it looks not every team will be above .500 in the playoffs.

Our team then was built to make a run at it. We had defense and an inside-out game on offense. We don't have defense or a post presence offensively this time around. Furthermore, our coach is not half of what Van Gundy was, and we don't have a proven winner on the whole team.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> What do you think Rashidi? Haven't read if you think they should tank or not...


Define tanking. The Knicks are built to win and they're tanking. They couldn't tank if they wanted to. Who in their right mind is going to take any player on the roster not named Sweetney or Ariza? Everyone else has a large contract or sucks. Does Isiah really think that teams don't have better expiring contracts to offer? It's like he thinks the Bucks will take Tim Thomas back for Michael Redd or something.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Define tanking. The Knicks are built to win and they're tanking. They couldn't tank if they wanted to. Who in their right mind is going to take any player on the roster not named Sweetney or Ariza? Everyone else has a large contract or sucks. Does Isiah really think that teams don't have better expiring contracts to offer? It's like he thinks the Bucks will take Tim Thomas back for Michael Redd or something.


When people say tank, I think they are referring to getting a better draft situation. And swapping talent such as Tim Thomas but for a better expiring contract / situation.

-Petey


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

I don't believe such a move is possible. The Knicks have no expiring contracts. No team is going to trade anything of value for a max contract that expires NEXT year. Maybe during the offseason, but theres no chance of it during the season. It's not like Atlanta is just going to say hmm, let's trade Antoine Walker to the Knicks so we can have Tim Thomas on our cap next year, or Philly saying "hey, lets trade Glenn Robinson so we can have Tim Thomas this year". Thomas and Penny suck. They are probably the least talented players in the league that have those contracts. A 1 for 1 swap won't work, because either Knick will be the worse player (and will still have a year left, so you'd have to be talking a player with 2 years left for it to make sense, again, that's not tanking). A multiple player for one swap won't work, because for one, the Knicks already have too many guaranteed contracts, and for two, the team would be better off keeping those other players talentwise. Unless they make the Knicks take back someone with a long term contract like Aaron McKie or Kenny Thomas with a draft pick. Again, that's not tanking. That's swapping crap for crap with a longer contract and a "bonus" draft pick.

It looks like all Isiah has done is add more players with fat contracts ala Scott Layden. He traded away 4 expiring contracts for a player who is a terrible fit on this team. It's time to move Marbury to SG already and just get it over with. They need a PG like Eric Snow or even a TJ Ford, not a younger and erractic version of Damon Stoudamire or Nick Van Exel (and that's saying something if you're an erratic version of either of those two).


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

yeah rashidi, tank it. get a nice pick. then trade tt and penny next year. not this year. they arent worth **** this year, and the team still wont pass the first round this year. id rather see how the lottery balls bounce instead of getting the 15th pick.

teams are more likely to deal with us next year if we offer a lottery pick along with TT.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> I don't believe such a move is possible. The Knicks have no expiring contracts. No team is going to trade anything of value for a max contract that expires NEXT year. Maybe during the offseason, but theres no chance of it during the season. It's not like Atlanta is just going to say hmm, let's trade Antoine Walker to the Knicks so we can have Tim Thomas on our cap next year, or Philly saying "hey, lets trade Glenn Robinson so we can have Tim Thomas this year". Thomas and Penny suck. They are probably the least talented players in the league that have those contracts. A 1 for 1 swap won't work, because either Knick will be the worse player (and will still have a year left, so you'd have to be talking a player with 2 years left for it to make sense, again, that's not tanking). A multiple player for one swap won't work, because for one, the Knicks already have too many guaranteed contracts, and for two, the team would be better off keeping those other players talentwise. Unless they make the Knicks take back someone with a long term contract like Aaron McKie or Kenny Thomas with a draft pick. Again, that's not tanking. That's swapping crap for crap with a longer contract and a "bonus" draft pick.
> 
> It looks like all Isiah has done is add more players with fat contracts ala Scott Layden. He traded away 4 expiring contracts for a player who is a terrible fit on this team. It's time to move Marbury to SG already and just get it over with. They need a PG like Eric Snow or even a TJ Ford, not a younger and erractic version of Damon Stoudamire or Nick Van Exel (and that's saying something if you're an erratic version of either of those two).





> Originally posted by <b>sliccat</b>!
> 
> 
> > King believes he'll be able to get a decent offer for Robinson, even if he doesn't play at all by the deadline.
> ...



76ers Forum Discussion 

1 man's crap is another man's treasure. Now would I do that swap if I were the 76ers? No. But apparently there are fans/beat writers who would.

Look what the Nets traded for Vince Carter. Look at what the Heat traded for Shaq. Look at what you guys ultimately traded for Marbury. Everyone has their own objectives and what they would deem a success.

-Petey


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

I'm wondering about how long it'll take for Isaiah to convince Allan Houston to retire so that the worst contract in the league finally comes off the Knicks' books. That's when this team can even THINK about rebuilding.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*H2O will still be on the books..*

if he retires. For the whole term. The only difference is that the club has insurance that pays for 80% of his contract after a 41 game deductable. It still counts against the cap, though, same as if he was playing.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

*Re: H2O will still be on the books..*



> Originally posted by <b>Max Payne</b>!
> *I'm wondering about how long it'll take for Isaiah to convince Allan Houston to retire* so that the worst contract in the league finally comes off the Knicks' books. That's when this team can even THINK about rebuilding.





> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> if he retires. For the whole term. The only difference is that *the club has insurance that pays for 80% of his contract after a 41 game deductable*. It still counts against the cap, though, same as if he was playing.


If that is true, won't you think he's more likely to retire? He still collects and saves some dignity?

He's not the sharpest shooter anymore.

-Petey


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

Layden should be hanged....


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