# NBA Players that will do well against top Euro/South American teams



## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

Make no mistake about it, the best players in the world are still in the NBA. However, it's becoming increasingly common and sometimes embarassing to see a team of NBA "stars" getting beat up by European (Greece in FIBA Worlds 2006, Yugoslavia & Spain in 2002, Lithuania in Athens, Italy in an exhibition game) and South American (Puerto Rico in Athens & Argentina in 2002 & Athens) teams. France with Tony Parker is also very capable of beating team USA. Who knows? Soon you'll have African teams like Angola or Senegal dropping winning shots against NBA-led teams.

When NBA teams revamp their lineups, one of the considerations is who can help shore up weak positions. The other, of course, is to hire players that fit their game philosophy. If you look back at Team USA's experience in this FIBA Worlds, the top areas they got beat up on (especially those tough matches) were: rebounding, defense, FG percentage, turnovers, and free throws. In light of these deficiencies, which players should be brought along in 2008 to increase the chances for a Gold?

The problem with leaving the lineup intact is, the same problems will haunt them in 2008. You'll still see balls go "ker-PLUNK!" a lot more than swish. You'll still see mutiple shot opportunities by the opposing teams. You'll still see boneheaded decision-making that converts to turnovers.

Here's some players whom I think will do very well:

To solve the "ker-PLUNK!" problem:
1) Rip Hamilton (his mid-range catch-and-shoot jumpers would be a nightmare for opposing teams)
2) Kobe Bryant (you thought Manu was devastating...wait till you see this guy light up the scoreboard...tough games need clutch players...nobody's better)
3) Michael Redd (a left-handed Ray Allen...somebody who only need an inch opening to swish a shot)
To holdover from existing team: Wade, Carmelo, & Hinrich

To solve the turnovers problem:
1) Chauncey Billups (steady hands, very smart...kinda like Sam Cassell...Cassell would be a good fit if he were younger)
2) Mike Bibby (in the same mold as Sam Cassell...gutsy, smart, great ballhandling)

To solve the "defense" problem:
1) Ron Artest (how can anyone forget? Best defensive player in the NBA)
2) Raja Bell (remember this guy? The "I've got bigger fish to fry" guy)

To solve the "rebounding" problem:
1) Amare Stoudemire
2) Dwight Howard

Coach: Pat Riley/Mike D'Antoni

Gold Medal Guaranteed!

:biggrin:


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

Ok. Why leave out Elton Brand, Chris Bosh, Chris Paul, Antwan Jamison, Joe Johnson, Brad Miller, Shane Battier, and hate to say this...Lebron James?

Elton Brand is a good one-on-one post player and is an excellent shot-blocker for his size. However, he struggles from the free-throw line and his post moves aren't as effective against zone defense. Fouling him is just as good as blocking his shot because he can't make those free throws anyway.

Chris Bosh is an athletic big guy who can run the floor. If there are no fast breaks or one-on-one situations, he can't contribute.

Chris Paul did well in the tournament. But if you can have a more mature and experienced point guards like Billups and Bibby, then ditch Chris Paul until he's earned more experience. It's one thing to "hotdog" or "showboat" dribble, it's another to play poised and not turn the ball over with careless passing.

Antwan Jamison...I can't remember him making any significant plays. Or did he even play at all?

Joe Johnson shot very well in some games and faded in other games. If you can bring in somebody like Michael Redd or Rip Hamilton, I'm sure you'd pass up on Joe Johnson in the final selection.

As a 7-footer, Brad Miller didn't give them the presence a 7-footer should be giving. That's going to change with Amare Stoudemire (even though he's not a 7-footer).

Shane Battier was brought in as a role player known for his defense. Hey, if you can have Ron Artest, wouldn't you drop Shane Battier?

Lebron James did his darndest best, but his expected dominance in offense was glaringly missing. Either he found the zone defense difficult to figure out or he just needs improvements in his shooting and passing. But hey, you bring in Kobe Bryant, you more than make up for Lebron's absence.


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## LuckyAC (Aug 12, 2004)

Raja Bell plays for the Virgin Islands.


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

Oh, didn't know about that.

Very well then, I'd put in Marcus Camby (voted in the All-Defensive Second Team in the past two years) in that list. Camby combines excellent defense with an active presence in offense.


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## neural_dream (Sep 1, 2006)

Kobe
R. Hamilton
Redd
B. Miller

and that's pretty much it

Anthony wasn't bad either


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## Matej (Aug 14, 2005)

DKaiser said:


> Make no mistake about it, the best players in the world are still in the NBA. However, it's becoming increasingly common and sometimes embarassing to see a team of NBA "stars" getting beat up by European (Greece in FIBA Worlds 2006, Yugoslavia & Spain in 2002, Lithuania in Athens, Italy in an exhibition game) and South American (Puerto Rico in Athens & Argentina in 2002 & Athens) teams. *France with Tony Parker is also very capable of beating team USA.* Who knows? Soon you'll have African teams like Angola or Senegal dropping winning shots against NBA-led teams.


I'm not sure about that. If you want to beat team usa, you have to have very good three-point shooters. You can't win without three pointers.


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## Matej (Aug 14, 2005)

btw why does nobody mention Tayshaun Prince. I mean that kind of a player would with no doubt be very useful for the team.


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## neural_dream (Sep 1, 2006)

France hasn't convinced me yet that it is anything more than a severely toned-down USA team. One star instead of 5-6 of this year's USA, a few players who marginally make it in the NBA, Diaw :clown:, and pretty bad coaches almost always, and a playing style that has no place either in the NBA or in Europe. The fact that they almost made it to last Eurobasket final was more a matter of the very low quality of that tourney rather than an indication of a good team with stars and chemistry. I fail to see how France will be any better in the Olympics.


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## lw32 (May 24, 2003)

Why not get someone like, say, Anthony Parker to be apart of the team? He definitely has experience in Europe, has played against most players in the Euroleague and will have no problems adjusting to the rules. Sure, he's not the best player, but his experience and knowledge would be vital, even as an end of the bench guy.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Why does the US need to overhaul its roster for finishing in 3rd place?


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> Why does the US need to overhaul its roster for finishing in 3rd place?


Because its not first...

I'd want to add Ben Gordon, Richard Hamilton, and Michael Redd, that gives you shooters.

So thats 3 spots.

Kirk Hinrich for his defense, and then Chauncey Billups for defense and shooting as well.

Then add Kobe to the mix as a 2/3 that can play defense and shoot, so thats 6 spots, and the backcourt pretty much.

Then put Carmelo on that team, he can shoot. Add Lebron, he can run the point, and score as our super athletic guy....

So thats 8 people....so the next 4 are for the frontcourt.

Greg Oden for rebounding and defense, as well as some inside scoring.

Dwight Howard for offense and rebounding.

Amare for offense and rebounding...

Emeka Okafor for rebounding and defense.

So that gives me a team of....

PG-Chauncey Billups/Kirk Hinrich
SG-Richard Hamilton/Ben Gordon/Michael Redd
SF-Kobe Bryant/Carmelo Anthony/Lebron James
PF-Dwight Howard/Amare Stoudemire
C- Greg Oden/Emeka Okafor

i like that team, it'd be nice if Lebron could slide over to powerforward, but it seems for the damndest reason that he can't.


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## girllovesthegame (Nov 3, 2005)

DKaiser said:


> and not turn the ball over


You're not saying ditch Paul because he had lots of turnovers are you? He had 9. Wade had 19 and Lebron had 25.


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## Guybrush (May 24, 2006)

While its good to have some players that fit well to the international game and FIBA rules. I think it also helps tremendesly to have players from the same team. They allready know each other and work well together.

Why not use a front court that allready exist? 2 players who cover each other weaknesses and work well together and developed a good chemistry, my pick will be Elton Brand and Chris Kaman. A skilled PF with a banger at C, bring the best american front court in the league to team USA, makes sense to me.

As for the backcourt, why not get 3 players who play well together and will also translate their talent well to the international game. The Pistons backcourt will be perfect, Hamilton will be a great international player, and Chauncy is an Improved version of the typical european point guard. Then you have Prince with his great D and his good all around skill set, and you are all set.

Billups
Hamilton
Prince
Brand
Kaman

This starting lineup won't only win you an NBA championship, it will also give you a very good starting lineup for the international game.

The bench should be filled with players that fit each other well and also bring something else to the table that you don't get from your starters. It will also be better to bring in 2nd or 3rd tier players to help keep the chemistry up, I can't really someone like Carmelo sitting on the bench without affecting team morale and such. It also a good idea to bring in players who know each other as well, so let's have a try:

Kirk Hinrich - Good defensive PG that can hustle and involve others.
Ben Gordon - Killer shooter, great to have from the bench.
Richard Jefferson - Very efficient scorer that does all the little things.
Chris Bosh - When Brand game isn't going so well its great to bring someone like Bosh who can knock down the FT and run the fast break. Really bring you something diffrent from the bench.
Brad Miller - I just feel he will play perfectly with Bosh and make a killer partnership.

The last 2 spots should go for situational players, someone like Lindsey Hunter and Shane Battier really fit the bill here. Plus you won't see much complaints from them if they are not playing.

Too bad for you Americans it will never happend.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Lebron James
Carmelo Anthony
DWayne Wade

Unless your list includes Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant or possibly KG, all three are better at the game than anyone you named. And I don't care if the game is played with an octagon shaped lane and a 2 foot 3 point line. These guys were unguardable by the european/south american teams.

Think about it. We ran little to no half court offense. Fran kept saying, the way our guys were playing given FIBA rules it was like 1 on 5. Yet neither of these 3 guys had trouble putting up close to their NBA numbers. I think Lebron was around 15/5/5 in 25 minutes or so. Melo was averaging damn near close to his NBA average in 15 mintues less of playing time. And DWade was averaging around 20 in lowered minutes. And all of them shot good percentages from the field.

Lebron was our best point guard. Melo was our best scorer. DWade was our second best scorer, and a really great finisher.

Three Best Players consistently on Team USA.

People keep saying guys like Rip Hamilton. But if you saw the offense USA were running, which was no offense, Rip would have been a spot up shooter, and I'm sorry, but Rip is not a spot up shooter. And honestly we can find better shots than contested 15 footers that Rip would get.

And just looking at GuyBrush's list, you obviously don't watch these games ever. Many of the players you picked have played in the WC/Olympics/and Qualifiers. And most of them sucked something fierce.

The team I take is this year's team, plus Kobe, Oden, and Amare, minus Brand, Miller, and Jamison. Brand has had a lot of opportunities and honestly, we've misplayed him a lot. Used him as a center, and it's cost us in intimidation factor, and rebounding, as well as finishing at the basket.

Here's the combinations I'm thinking of:

Lebron
Hinrich
Johnson
Melo
Howard

Lebron plays the 1 on offense, guards the 4 on defense. Melo is our primary option in the halfcourt. Hinrich is a spot up shooting defender who can also initiate the break. Same thing with Joe Johnson.

Other unit:
Wade
Kobe
Battier
Amare
Oden

Kobe and Battier are shooters. Wade is slasher/creator. Amare and Oden are there to dunk on fools and block shots into the upper deck thanks to the attention that Kobe demands.

Then my fourth quarter team when the game is tight:
Lebron
Kobe
Wade
Melo
Oden

No five wants it more with the game on the line.

Really getting Greg Oden, a true center, will change the complextion of the current team. We really have missed having a true center.

These guys will have 3 years together to boot. Which also puts them ahead of you guys crazy groups.

This team gives the best chance for medaling in Beijinng. Any other combination runs the risk of not even medaling.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Lachlanwood32 said:


> Why not get someone like, say, Anthony Parker to be apart of the team? He definitely has experience in Europe, has played against most players in the Euroleague and will have no problems adjusting to the rules. Sure, he's not the best player, but his experience and knowledge would be vital, even as an end of the bench guy.


Why not just hire a full-time consultant who knows the international game so that Coach K can actually know the players names of the guys he is supposed to be game planning against?


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

I don't think we change all that much. First of all the offense wasn't the problem as we scored a lot of point and did it efficiently. The glaring thing that stood out again and concerned me from the beginning of this tournament is for the 3rd straight one we've gone with C which has made PF's play the C spot for us and left undersized guys at PF. This has led us not dominating the boards as much as we'd want and has caused our D to be lax in terms of shotblocking. Against Greece, it was the interior D that killed us. Hopefully with both Oden and an older Howard that won't be a problem

Also I think people are forgetting what a marked improvement this team was compared to the previous few teams. This team only lost one game and on top of that had a much higher winning margin. To put that in perspective the last World Championship and Olympic team lost 3 games each and looked pretty ugly when winning. Considering nearly everyone who got substantial minutes on this team is less then 24: I think we're in good shape going into 08 particularly since these guys will actually played together in two tournaments (World Championship and Qualifying tournament) before the next Olympics start


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

By the way, what's with this Greg Oden thing? He's too unpolished and inexperienced to compete at the International level. He should first spend at least three years in the NBA before joining a Team USA. He'll be a great center one day...but not now. Just because he's a 7-footer and could dunk doesn't mean he'll dominate in top-flight World competition.

On another note, "Le Bronze" James' game has been proven ineffective in tough international games. Sure, he can run the break and dunk...and it's a spectacle. However, when you offset this against his field goal percentage, turnovers, and free-throw percentage...you realize he just knows how to run and dunk. The players I'm reminded of are...Orlando Woolridge or Dennis Rodman. The if-it's-not-a-dunk-it's-a-miss type of players. The only edge Lebron has over these guys is he can dribble the ball better.

Lebron's not going to be at par with legends like Magic Johnson or Michael Jordan (whom he's unabashedly being compared to) when his career is over. He hasn't even reach the level of play that James Worthy had during the Laker dynasty in the 80s. He'll be great all right...perhaps a Dominique Wilkins-level. Not too bad. Only the hype that followed him since High School made him bigger than he actually is.


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

Pioneer10 said:


> I don't think we change all that much.


...then the result won't change that much. UNLESS Team USA's content with Bronze again and bowing their heads after a humiliating defeat in a semifinals game.

Duds will be duds. Think Dennis Rodman. You think he'd develop a jumpshot to make his game better? Or did Shaq ever got rid of his free-throw problems. Nah...that's why you need to change players.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

DKaiser said:


> By the way, what's with this Greg Oden thing? He's too unpolished and inexperienced to compete at the International level. He should first spend at least three years in the NBA before joining a Team USA. He'll be a great center one day...but not now. Just because he's a 7-footer and could dunk doesn't mean he'll dominate in top-flight World competition.


The thing is he's the first true american center since Shaq. That's what. Defensively he seems ready to go already. We only need him for dunking in traffic and rebounding and blocking shots. Dwight Howard scared people in the paint when he was playing. The idea is that Oden is that, but moreso.




> On another note, "Le Bronze" James' game has been proven ineffective in tough international games.


Best player on the floor against Argentina. Or is Argentina not a tough international team? When he was moved to point guard he was ****ing with a triple double. Your "analysis" completely left out his passing ability which is the best on Team USA, and exaggerated any struggles he had with his shot(which he really didn't). Again, clearly all you have seen of Lebron is highlight packages.

You're going to have to come better than you are. This is too easy.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

DKaiser said:


> By the way, what's with this Greg Oden thing? He's too unpolished and inexperienced to compete at the International level. He should first spend at least three years in the NBA before joining a Team USA. He'll be a great center one day...but not now. Just because he's a 7-footer and could dunk doesn't mean he'll dominate in top-flight World competition.


We have lack of true C prospects outside of Howard who is turning into a force. Every indication that at least on defense and on the glass Oden is a very polished player. Considering the amount of scoring the US can put up, a defensive shotblocking C who can finish around the rim but not necessarily create offense is just fine. We have dominate players already and Oden would be a complement



> On another note, "Le Bronze" James' game has been proven ineffective in tough international games. Sure, he can run the break and dunk...and it's a spectacle. However, when you offset this against his field goal percentage, turnovers, and free-throw percentage...you realize he just knows how to run and dunk. The players I'm reminded of are...Orlando Woolridge or Dennis Rodman. The if-it's-not-a-dunk-it's-a-miss type of players. The only edge Lebron has over these guys is he can dribble the ball better.
> 
> Lebron's not going to be at par with legends like Magic Johnson or Michael Jordan (whom he's unabashedly being compared to) when his career is over. He hasn't even reach the level of play that James Worthy had during the Laker dynasty in the 80s. He'll be great all right...perhaps a Dominique Wilkins-level. Not too bad. Only the hype that followed him since High School made him bigger than he actually is.


Did you even watch the games? James clearly stepped away from scoring to try to help the team and did so in multiple games. When switched to PG was the best player on the floor against Argentina and was the guy who had the assignment of all people Dirk in the Germany game. Clearly you're biased though if you think the only edge Lebron has over Woolridge is dribbling as Lebron is better the Woolridge in every aspect fo the game: statiscally and in person.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

DKaiser said:


> ...then the result won't change that much. UNLESS Team USA's content with Bronze again and bowing their heads after a humiliating defeat in a semifinals game.
> 
> Duds will be duds. Think Dennis Rodman. You think he'd develop a jumpshot to make his game better? Or did Shaq ever got rid of his free-throw problems. Nah...that's why you need to change players.


 Only somebody who didn't watch the two previous tournaments and not watched this last world championship would put up a statement like this. This team by every measure was a better team then the last two tournaments in terms of both losses and win margin. Plus this team is YOUNGER then either of the prior two teams with commitments from all the players to play together as a team rather then being reassembled each year.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Pioneer eats trolls for even thinking about sleeping under his bridge, like YAAAARRRR.

That was real talk pwnage of a nOOb.


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## Guybrush (May 24, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Lebron James
> Carmelo Anthony
> DWayne Wade
> 
> Unless your list includes Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant or possibly KG, all three are better at the game than anyone you named. And I don't care if the game is played with an octagon shaped lane and a 2 foot 3 point line. These guys were unguardable by the european/south american teams.


You can't run an offense when 4 out of your 5 starters need the ball in their hands to be effective. You can't set plays like this, there is no hirerchy. Sure Rip isn't Wade, but thats the all point, he doesn't need to be. You gonna tell me the team I put would have problems offensively? I very much doubt it. Whats the point in having all those stars if most of their game dissapear while playing with each other?

Sure this team won't be the offensive force of the Carmelo/Lebron/Wade trio, but they won't have problem scoring and will also play defense. Defense is mostly a team game, this starting 5 won't have hard time adjusting to each other because they come from 2 teams with similiar team mates. Brand/Kaman is an upgraded Wallaces (alltough lesser defenders) while the Pistons backcourt is very similiar to the Clippers (besides the SF spot). You have a set hirerchy and a decent chemsitry to begin with. You know Brand is the #1 option, you know Billups is making the plays. You can't have good offense execution when you have 4 guys wanting the ball and trying to score on every 2nd touch.

Why force really talented players to play diffrently then they usually play instead of letting less talented but still very good players play how they are used to with other players they are familiar with?

It doesn't matter if a Shark is a Shark on dry land, give me the rabbit everytime please.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Who says you have to play them together? Having Wade gave us scoring punch off the bench. And when the three players did play together, we had our best game. You saying they can't play together effectively is at odds with reality. Them playing together beat Argentina who won the gold in Athens.

Keep trying to put Rip Hamilton on this team. I'll keep saying he won't work as an international player because the 15 foot elbow jumper is not open in a packed in zone. He'll need to hit spot up 3's and frankly there are better people for that job, and they are already on Team USA.

Joe Johnson is worlds better than Rip Hamilton at playing a role. So is Kirk Hinrich. The makeup of the current team is fantstic, they just need more time together.

You guys act like it's this hypothetical world where Wade, Bron, and Melo can't share the same court, when it has happened, and the US were a juggernaut offensively.

Imagine if we had decided to only have two such players. If we didn't have Melo and Wade we lose the Italy game. If we didn't have Lebron and Wade, we lose the Argentina game. We need these three guys on the team. They are the core of the team. If Kobe comes in he's going to have to find his place within the set heiarchy. And he's good enough to figure out where the gaps to fill are, and still make his impact.


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Best player on the floor against Argentina. Or is Argentina not a tough international team? When he was moved to point guard he was ****ing with a triple double. Your "analysis" completely left out his passing ability which is the best on Team USA, and exaggerated any struggles he had with his shot(which he really didn't). Again, clearly all you have seen of Lebron is highlight packages.


I watched all of Team USA's games in this FIBA Worlds, including the exhibition series in China. What did I think about that Bronze medal match against Argentina? Well, for one, the intensity level was more like an All-Star game. Argentina seemed to put up only a half-arse effort. If it were a knockout match for a slot in the Gold Medal game, I'm sure the intensity would be different. Not to take credit away from Team USA, they deserved to win that game. Argentina beat themselves. You only need to recall as far back as Athens to know how different Argentina plays when there's a Gold (not Bronze) at stake. You can't even say Team USA was a different then...they had Wade-Melo-Bron, plus they had even had Tim Duncan and Allen Iverson.

As for Lebron-did-this, Lebron-did-that, I saw nothing extraordinary. Just a consistent Bronze-medal guy. Sure, he was trying his best to make himself useful. But it was frutrating to see him struggle on both ends of the floor. I'm referring to those tough matches against Italy, Puerto Rico, Germany, and Greece. Sure, he did great in those blowouts against overmatched teams like China or Australia. But that's not what you should pay attention to. Remember, you're measuring greatness. If you re-run those games (especially the ones against Greece & Italy), you'll see why he's far from a Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, or even a James Worthy. In those games, he was just a 6'7" guy who can run...can't even dribble that well...can't shoot free throws...definitely can't shoot those jumpers...only dunks (just like Dennis Rodman and Orlando Woolridge).

Here's the problem with Lebron: he needs the ball in his hands most of the time to be effective. He can do this in the NBA where he's a franchise player for the Cavs. But in a talented mix like a Team USA, his effectivity diminishes.

If can re-view those games against Italy & Greece...pay attention to the decision-making of Lebron...and you'll see why. Let me sum it up: FAILURE TO RECOGNIZE THE SITUATION.

Hats off to Carmelo Anthony! I have nothing but praise for this guy. He played the game right. Truly head and shoulders above the overhyped one.


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Joe Johnson is worlds better than Rip Hamilton at playing a role.


NO WAY...Come on, get real!


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

Pioneer10 said:


> Only somebody who didn't watch the two previous tournaments and not watched this last world championship would put up a statement like this. This team by every measure was a better team then the last two tournaments in terms of both losses and win margin. Plus this team is YOUNGER then either of the prior two teams with commitments from all the players to play together as a team rather then being reassembled each year.


I watched 'em all, mate! And you know what? Duds will be duds. Elton Brand's been involved in International tournaments longer than anyone else. His free-throws still sucks and he's too short to make an impact at the post where he unintelligently chooses to be in an offsensive set. The "big 3" were there in Athens. Wade and Carmelo improved by a quantum leap. Lebron's still throwing bricks to this date.

Remember the first time Argentina shocked Team USA in 2002? That was the World Basketball tournament hosted by the US. That team finished sixth...they got beat up big time by Argentina, Yugoslavia, and then by Spain. Here's what happened next: USA Basketball formed a new team for the Pan-American Games. That team had T-Mac, Mike Bibby, Jason Kidd, Jermaine O'Neal, Tim Duncan. You know what happened. They ran Argentinal out of the building in the Finals. I remember T-Mac saying that the game against Argentina was a statement game...that the true gap in talent between the top-caliber NBA stars versus the rest of the world was still wide.

Don't tell me it's not good to re-shuffle. Of course, it pays off big time. You only need to look at what contributed to the Lakers franchise's successful history. They took in big pieces to solve a championship puzzle. There was Wilt Chamberlain (from Philadelphia) & Jerry West (drafted) in the 70s...then there's Kareem (from Milwaukee) and Magic (drafted)...then there's Shaq (from Orlando) and Kobe (a draft pick from Charlotte). Clearly, a great center plus a great guard translated to dynasties....with exception of course to the greatest one, Michael Jordan.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I almost feel bad for what I'm about to do. But then I think of the children. I pwn this nOOb in the name of the children. Because they are our future.



DKaiser said:


> I watched all of Team USA's games in this FIBA Worlds, including the exhibition series in China. What did I think about that Bronze medal match against Argentina? Well, for one, the intensity level was more like an All-Star game. Argentina seemed to put up only a half-arse effort.


Nobody else thought that. In fact the commentors for the game commented to the exact opposite of your observation. The begining of the game Argentina came out to blow the US out of the water. US took the blow, responded, and finished off Argentina. Just like they did in the Tournament of the Americas when the US won both games to finish once again unbeaten in the Tournament of the Americas.



> You only need to recall as far back as Athens to know how different Argentina plays when there's a Gold (not Bronze) at stake. You can't even say Team USA was a different then...they had Wade-Melo-Bron, plus they had even had Tim Duncan and Allen Iverson.


Oh. You must be talking about the game that Lebron played 3 minutes of. Carmelo Anthony didn't play. Yeaaaah. You just made yourself look reaaaal credible here. Oh and saying we had Tim Duncan is debatable too. He only played 20 minutes and fouled out of the game.

It was a team of:

Iverson
Marbury
Jefferson
Odom
Boozer

Who played the bulk of a 8 point loss to Argentina. Hardly a convincing win against the best USA had to offer. And Larry Brown has proven with the Knicks just what kind of coach he was at that stage of his career.




> As for Lebron-did-this, Lebron-did-that, I saw nothing extraordinary.


We know. You compared him to Dennis Rodman. You've already exposed a profound lack of vision when it comes to talent. It's possible that you are some kind of love child between Charley Rosen and Hellen Keller.



> But it was frutrating to see him struggle on both ends of the floor. I'm referring to those tough matches against Italy, Puerto Rico, Germany, and Greece.


Italy he had a tough shooting game, but Melo and Wade were white hot, so Lebron stepped aside and let them do their thing. He could have forced his way to points, but Melo wasn't missing. Against Germany his defense on Dirk was one of the primary reasons we won the game, so that shoots that one out of the water. Against Greece his struggles are greatly exaggerated. He shot poorly from the free throw line, and had some bad turnovers. But sometimes you have to risk it to make it. And Lebron led Team USA in assists in that game. Shot 8 for 14 from the field for 17 points. 17/5/5 in 30 minutes of work in a 6 point loss is hardly struggling. Again the problems in that game were free throw shooting, turnovers, and he waited too long to take over the game.

Oh in the PR game, he had 15/6/6 on 7/12 shooting. And only 2 turnovers. So I don't know where you are getting that he struggled.

The only thing these games have in common really is poor free throw shooting. So maybe you meant to say "struggled from the line".

You have to remember the role he was playing was not the same as the role he plays in Cleveland. He was trying to set people up and do the playmaker role. And he was successfull enough at it, that eventually Coach K put him as the starting point guard over both Chris Paul and Kirk Hinrich. Which is a testament to his playmaking abilities.



> Sure, he did great in those blowouts against overmatched teams like China or Australia.


His best game of the tournament was against Argentina. You just don't know what to look for when watching Lebron to decide whether or not he's had a good game or not. It's not really about his points. Lebron will tell you himself, the thing he looks at to measure how active he was in a game is rebounding and assists. Points are meaningless because Lebron can score in his sleep on any defense in the world. But the rebounds and assists measure how much he is mentally involving himself in the game. But that's okay, I know you're new at this, and it's probably the first time you've gotten to see Lebron in a full game, and not just highlights or parts of the all-star game.



> But that's not what you should pay attention to. Remember, you're measuring greatness. If you re-run those games (especially the ones against Greece & Italy), you'll see why he's far from a Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, or even a James Worthy. In those games, he was just a 6'7" guy who can run...can't even dribble that well...can't shoot free throws...definitely can't shoot those jumpers...only dunks (just like Dennis Rodman and Orlando Woolridge).


To reitterate, you've compared Lebron James to Dennis Rodman. I really don't think anything more has to be said about how keen your basketball analysis is. Also he is 6-8.



> Here's the problem with Lebron: he needs the ball in his hands most of the time to be effective. He can do this in the NBA where he's a franchise player for the Cavs. But in a talented mix like a Team USA, his effectivity diminishes.


On a talented team like team USA, the ball SHOULD be in his hands. He creates better for others than anyone we have on the team. Who cares how effective Lebron is without the ball. There's no team in the world that should be running it's offense without Lebron touching the ball if the team wants to do their best. Playing Lebron off the ball is retarded, and anyone who thinks it's a good idea should be kicked in the head. No one played John Stockton or Magic Johnson off the ball. Nobody is playing Jason Kidd off the ball. Lebron is the ideal player to put on a talented team like USA because his creatorial talents make things come together. 



> If can re-view those games against Italy & Greece...pay attention to the decision-making of Lebron...and you'll see why. Let me sum it up: FAILURE TO RECOGNIZE THE SITUATION.


Woo, let's base our entire analysis on two games. I watched over 200 basketball games regular season, world championship, olympics, playoffs, preseason, summer league, High School, of Lebron's. My sample size is much greater than your's which is probably why you are comparing Lebron to Dennis Rodman. Do you homework. Get the tapes out. Because you're missing out on greatness.



> Hats off to Carmelo Anthony! I have nothing but praise for this guy. He played the game right. Truly head and shoulders above the overhyped one.


He was a terrific scorer, but that was his role. Lebron's overall game was quietly much better. But if all you care about is points scored, then I can see how you could make that mistake.

Anyways. Keep trying kiddo. You keep serving up the softballs, I'll keep smashing them through the church window.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

DKaiser said:


> That team had T-Mac, Mike Bibby, Jason Kidd, Jermaine O'Neal, Tim Duncan. You know what happened. They ran Argentinal out of the building in the Finals. I remember T-Mac saying that the game against Argentina was a statement game...that the true gap in talent between the top-caliber NBA stars versus the rest of the world was still wide.


They played Argentina twice in that tournament. The first time it was a 7 point win. The second time it was a blowout after both teams had qualified. Your revisionist history is amazing. JO sucked in that tournament too by the way. Anderson Verejao dunked in his grill.
I have my doubts as to whether you actually saw those games either. Considering they weren't on any major network and were pay-per-view.


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Woo, let's base our entire analysis on two games. I watched over 200 basketball games regular season, world championship, olympics, playoffs, preseason, summer league, High School, of Lebron's. My sample size is much greater than your's which is probably why you are comparing Lebron to Dennis Rodman. Do you homework. Get the tapes out. Because you're missing out on greatness.


Lebron's a good player, yes. But great? Remains to be seen.

Let him win first an NBA championship or win a Gold medal in a major international tournament without Kobe.

All I see right now...is one "ker-PLUNK!" after another, ill-advised cross-court passes, and poor decision-making in the clutch. Maybe he'll improve. Who knows?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

DKaiser said:


> Lebron's a good player, yes. But great? Remains to be seen.


You don't get the NBA playoffs where you live do you?



> Let him win first an NBA championship or win a Gold medal in a major international tournament without Kobe.


Give him a few years. He's only 21 and he already is one of the finest players of the game today.



> All I see right now...is one "ker-PLUNK!" after another


I don't know where you are seeing all these misses. The guy is making half of his shots everytime out.



> ill-advised cross-court passes


Throws the best cross court skip pass in the NBA. It's called switching the point of attack.



> and poor decision-making in the clutch.


Tell that to Brazil and the Washington Wizards. Lebron's decision making in the clutch is really good actually, because he doesn't let the moment cloud his ability to make the right play, not the one that is going to bring him the most glory per se. This season with the Cavs he won games pretty much every way you could down the stretch. Rebounds, steals, blocked shots, charges, assists, scores. He's an all-court player.

I know your interest in this has to be waining.


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## CSILASVEGAS (Jan 14, 2006)

Kobe Bryant against anyone!!


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

When you're a die-hard fan, judgments tend to be cloudy. I can't trust that. So, it's either you watch the tapes or...let's see...how about some stat sheet (courtesy of www.fiba.com):

Lebron James

vs. Greece
17 points >>almost half in garbage time
30 minutes
8 of 14 FG (57%) >>ho-hum..padded up in garbage time
0 of 4 3pt (0%) >>Ker-PLUNK!
1 of 4 FT (25%) >>Ker-PLUNK!
5 rebounds
5 assists
4 turnovers (team-high) >>Bonehead!
1 steal
2 blocked shots

vs. Italy
8 points
25 minutes
3 of 8 FG (37.5%) >>Ker-PLUNK!
1 of 3 3pt (33.3%) >>Ker-PLUNK!
1 of 2 FT (50%) >>not bad...but it's free-throws dammit!
3 rebounds
2 assists
3 turnovers (team-high) >>Bonehead!==>Thank God for Carmelo!
1 steal
0 blocked shot

Lebron's been nicknamed "King James" and "The Chosen One"...since he's taken quite a liking to bronze medal finishes, I guess it's time for a change in nicknames...somebody here coined "Lebronze". I like this. It has a nice ring to it. Another coined "The Chosen Third"...as in 3rd place.

Cheers!


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

There was garbage time in the greece game? What you call garbage time, most people call "trying to win" time.

As I said before, free throws and turnovers were his only real buggaboo. And you're going to make turnovers when you try to for brilliance. Jason Kidd turns the ball over a lot too.

And the Italy game, once gain, Melo took that game over in the second half, so Lebron didn't force it. Why should he have been doing anything more than giving Melo the ball in that half? Melo made almost every shot he took in that half. It's called recognition of time and place.

Keep trying to play the game.


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## kironte (Aug 30, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> As I said before, free throws and turnovers were his only real buggaboo. And you're going to make turnovers when you try to for brilliance.


In elimination rounds you should try to for effectiveness rather than brilliance

In other case greece may win over brilliance


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## neural_dream (Sep 1, 2006)

kironte said:


> In elimination rounds you should try to for effectiveness rather than brilliance
> 
> In other case greece may win over brilliance


You mean that Greece didn't exhibit brilliance in the semi-final game?


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## kironte (Aug 30, 2006)

neural_dream said:


> You mean that Greece didn't exhibit brilliance in the semi-final game?


I mean greece is a consistent and effective team 

Brilliance in the semi-final?? Usa scored 95 pts

Greece didnt win the match,Usa lost it


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

kironte said:


> I mean greece is a consistent and effective team


Yeah that's what it looked like in the semi-final vs. the final. Reaaal consistency there. 

And Brilliance beats effectiveness more often than not. Greece were brilliant in the semi-final, the US merely effective.

Kobe Bryant is brilliant. Rip Hamilton is effective. But which one stands the best chance of single-handedly beating a team? Yeah. The brilliant guy.


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

Ok. Enough talk about Lebron. Some people say he's already great. I say that remains to be seen (and I cite reasons like his shooting, poor free-throws, poor decision-making, and turnovers). No doubt he has flair and flamboyance. But not the smarts that's honed through experience. The potential is there. After all, he's still 21.

Now back to the thread topic. It's my contention that some re-shuffling needs to be done in order for team USA to match up better against the top international teams...which, by the way, are growing in numbers each year. Since USA started fielding NBA players in international tournaments, everybody looked to European teams (Lithuania and Yugoslavia) as the yardstick on how wide the skills gap is with the US. Who'd have thought that the first team to pull the rug from under NBA-led teams would come from the continent of America? Argentina came into the scene without any waning of their dominance. Experts were still saying then that it'd take another 10 years before the an NBA-led team USA gets beaten. And, boy, did they get their surprise 10 years too early.

Since 2002, it's no longer a rarity to see teams beating an NBA-powered team USA. Argentina did it twice, Spain did it, so did then-Yugoslavia, Puerto Rico, Italy, and now Greece. All of these USA-conquerors had a great frontline (except for Italy which rely more on precise execution and sharp-shooting) that posed a lot of problems for team USA. Recall that Dream Team 1 had Ewing (7'0") and Robinson (7'1") and the wide-bodied power forward Karl Malone (6'9") dominating the paint in the 92 Olympics. Dream Team 2 had Shaq (enough said about this monster). For some strange reason, since Shaq started passing on Dream Team assignments, USA basketball started sending shorter teams, with the tallest player measuring only 6'11"...preferring instead versatile players who can play both guard and forward positions. 

Those two versions of the Dream Team were so dominant that Vlade Divac (then Europe's best center) passed on several major international tournaments where a Dream Team participated. Then came 2002 FIBA Worlds held in the US. He saw the lineup of Team USA: Vin Baker & Jermaine O'neal were playing center. He immediately signed up for Yugoslavia. I think before the tournament began that he said he found it difficult to turn down the opportunity of being the first to beat an NBA-powered team USA. Argentinal beat him to the punch.

Fast forward. Surely, if this same group of players which finished bronze in this year's Worlds were to remain intact, the results would still be the same (if not worse). Wade and Melo has to be retained. Keep Lebron too (are you happy now?), just in case he improves. Keep Howard, as a backup to Amare. CP3 can be backup to Billups. Then make the rest dispensable. I'm sure you can think of better players than Chris Bosh or Brad Miller.

Although I agree with the statement that a group of talented players will not necessarily win you championships, I will however say that you still need the "right" group of players. By "right", I mean, players who know the "system" (provided that the system is a winning one to begin with) and can make it work. 

Say you have a "winning" system that, in one key aspect, runs variations of the pick-and-roll: for this to work, you need a tandem that's already done this to perfection (e.g. Stockton-Malone, Nash-Stoudemire, Nash-Marion, etc...of course, get ones that are still playing in the NBA and are eligible). In another key aspect, say that you have patterns of drives and kick-outs. Here, you'll need shooters/slashers re-shuffling the defense (e.g. Magic-Worthy-Scott, Jordan-Pippen-Paxson, Parker-Ginobilli-Bowen). And when the game grounds to a slow half-court game, you'll need plays that probably posts a dominant center down low and shooters & slashers keeping themselves active and visible for a pass (e.g. Jabbar-Magic-Scott, Shaq-Wade-Haslem)...just like how Pau Gasol-Navarro-Calderon-Garbajosa tandem executed it to destroy the competition in this year's Worlds.


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## Matej (Aug 14, 2005)

DKaiser said:


> Since 2002, it's no longer a rarity to see teams beating an NBA-powered team USA. Argentina did it twice, Spain did it, so did then-Yugoslavia, Puerto Rico, *Italy*, and now Greece. All of these USA-conquerors had a great frontline (except for Italy which rely more on precise execution and sharp-shooting) that posed a lot of problems for team USA. Recall that Dream Team 1 had Ewing (7'0") and Robinson (7'1") and the wide-bodied power forward Karl Malone (6'9") dominating the paint in the 92 Olympics. Dream Team 2 had Shaq (enough said about this monster). For some strange reason, since Shaq started passing on Dream Team assignments, USA basketball started sending shorter teams, with the tallest player measuring only 6'11"...preferring instead versatile players who can play both guard and forward positions.


Lithuania, not Italy.


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

Matej said:


> Lithuania, not Italy.


Oh, thanks. I left out Lithuania (one of the many-more-to-come USA conquerors)...but Italy did beat team USA in an exhibition game once. Check the internet and you'll see that that took place. I think that team was the same one that went to Athens.

By the way, I liked how you coined LEBRONZE (are you the one who coined this first?)...it captures well Lebron's disappointing performance and his affinity to bronze medal finishes. Understand that when we say disappointing, we imply some expectations set. He's supposed to be better than Pippen. He's touted to be a cross between Magic & Jordan. He came out in this FIBA Worlds looking like a Dennis Rodman with a dribble, a contorting lay-up...and a Magic Johnson's assist...to the opponent (i.e. turnovers). But they throw the same bricks from jump shots and free throws.

I thought highly of this guy due to rave reviews when he came out of high school. That's why I'm disappointed with his average performance...which impresses some of his die-hard fans...uh-uh...but not me. The way he plays looks pretty set (improvements would be tough but possible). If he were to improve, the next thing he has to work on is his shooting. If he does that, then he'll equal Scottie Pippen. Let's not compare him to Jordan or Magic yet...that's a leap for now.


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## Matej (Aug 14, 2005)

DKaiser said:


> By the way, I liked how you coined LEBRONZE (are you the one who coined this first?)...


I think a lot of people thought of that nickname at the same time when lebron got bronze, you can't point out only one "inventor"  try to write "lebronze" into google and you'll see how many results you get...


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> There was garbage time in the greece game? What you call garbage time, most people call "trying to win" time.


Let me explain why it was "garbage-time" scoring. Greece had a lead that could've been threatened with a barrage of 3-point shots. They played it smart. They played it tight at the 3-point arc and gave Lebron almost a free lane to run and dunk as a result (while at the same time running down the clock). Greece knew the situation and kept a weak interior defense. Lebron didn't. If he knew the lead couldn't be overcome with 2-point shots, then he'd realize that the only chance to win was gamble on the three. It's like throwing haymakers in boxing in the hope of a knockout.

The great ones like Jordan, Bird & Magic have the clock and scoreboard in their heads...they just knew how to win.


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> And the Italy game, once gain, Melo took that game over in the second half, so Lebron didn't force it. Why should he have been doing anything more than giving Melo the ball in that half? Melo made almost every shot he took in that half. It's called recognition of time and place.


Well, it wasn't just the Italy game where Lebron played second fiddle to Carmelo. It was more like....the whole tournament! And he did rightly so. Otherwise, he'd be a bonehead to pile up his turnovers and ker-PLUNKS! to negate Carmelo's contributions.

Melo took the stage and separated himself from the crowd. It was a showcase to distinguish the Real Deal from the Big Deal...(as in Big deal! so what!)...which captures the hype called "The Chosen One"...or it should aptly be called "The Chosen Third".


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

DKaiser said:


> Lebron James
> 
> vs. Greece
> 17 points >>almost half in garbage time


What the **** are you talking about? This was a 3-point-game at the end, there wasn't a second of garbage time. You have no idea what you're talking about.



DKaiser said:


> Let me explain why it was "garbage-time" scoring. Greece had a lead that could've been threatened with a barrage of 3-point shots. They played it smart. They played it tight at the 3-point arc and gave Lebron almost a free lane to run and dunk as a result (while at the same time running down the clock). Greece knew the situation and kept a weak interior defense. Lebron didn't. If he knew the lead couldn't be overcome with 2-point shots, then he'd realize that the only chance to win was gamble on the three.


Bull****. With two minutes to go in the game you don't shot desperation threes, you go for a high percentage shot, and that's what LeBron James. What you call "giving LeBron a free lane" was Greece's way to guard LeBron. They can't guard him, no European team can.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

DKaiser said:


> Oh, thanks. I left out Lithuania (one of the many-more-to-come USA conquerors)...but Italy did beat team USA in an exhibition game once. Check the internet and you'll see that that took place. I think that team was the same one that went to Athens.
> 
> By the way, I liked how you coined LEBRONZE (are you the one who coined this first?)...it captures well Lebron's disappointing performance and his affinity to bronze medal finishes. Understand that when we say disappointing, we imply some expectations set. He's supposed to be better than Pippen. He's touted to be a cross between Magic & Jordan. He came out in this FIBA Worlds looking like a Dennis Rodman with a dribble, a contorting lay-up...and a Magic Johnson's assist...to the opponent (i.e. turnovers). But they throw the same bricks from jump shots and free throws.
> 
> I thought highly of this guy due to rave reviews when he came out of high school. That's why I'm disappointed with his average performance...which impresses some of his die-hard fans...uh-uh...but not me. The way he plays looks pretty set (improvements would be tough but possible). If he were to improve, the next thing he has to work on is his shooting. If he does that, then he'll equal Scottie Pippen. Let's not compare him to Jordan or Magic yet...that's a leap for now.



You wouldn't be disapointed if you watched NBA games instead of just a handful of games that you didn't even watch that closely at the world championships. I'm shocked you don't even get the NBA playoffs where you live. Because Lebron put on one of the all-time great playoff entrances this past season, cementing his status even at such a young age as one of the best the game has to offer.

Dennis Rodmman with a dribble, contorting layup, and Magic like passing, by the way, is an all-time great player. I guess you didn't watch Dennis Rodman or Magic Johnson much in their careers either.


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

bender said:


> Bull****. With two minutes to go in the game you don't shot desperation threes, you go for a high percentage shot, and that's what LeBron James. What you call "giving LeBron a free lane" was Greece's way to guard LeBron. They can't guard him, no European team can.


There was a double digit advantage for Greece with two minutes to go and they were winding down the clock real well. What bull****? They lost the game, period. The 3-point attempt by Chris Paul came too late. The frantic rally couldn't overcome Greece's lead. 

If Greece couldn't guard Lebron, then team USA would've won it easy, won't they? You call 17 points unstoppable? Give me a break!


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Dennis Rodmman with a dribble, contorting layup, and Magic like passing, by the way, is an all-time great player. I guess you didn't watch Dennis Rodman or Magic Johnson much in their careers either.


I didn't compare him to Magic in the positive sense. Let me state that again..."a Magic Johnson's assist...to the opponent (i.e. turnovers)"....Magic assists his teammate, not the opponent. Magic was the best big-man point guard who could play all 5 positions. Lebron needs years of practice to reach his level.

I will say this much about Lebron. At 21, he's impressive. But to put him in the same breath as Jordan and Magic is too premature at this stage. I'm sure Lebron will be the first to admit that he hasn't proven anything yet. It's his die-hard fans who like to put the carriage before the horse.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

DKaiser said:


> If Greece couldn't guard Lebron, then team USA would've won it easy, won't they? You call 17 points unstoppable? Give me a break!


Minutes played, field goal percentage, team with a lot of scoring already on it...god. You just spew crap about these games constantly make sure we know that YOU DID NOT WATCH THE GAMES and have NEVER SEEN AN NBA GAME IN YOUR LIFE.

You just now heard "Lebronze"? What's worse, you find it clever....HAVE YOU BEEN LIVING UNDER A ROCK!?

I feel like I'm debating basketball with The Encino Man.


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> You wouldn't be disapointed if you watched NBA games instead of just a handful of games that you didn't even watch that closely at the world championships. I'm shocked you don't even get the NBA playoffs where you live. Because Lebron put on one of the all-time great playoff entrances this past season, cementing his status even at such a young age as one of the best the game has to offer.


You know what? I did. And I agree with you he did great against Washington Wizards. You see, his style of play is well suited to the NBA where the rules welcome athleticism and crowd-pleasing antics. 

The international game is a lot different. Here, the emphasis is team execution. Here, Lebron's productivity would only go as far as what defense would allow him. When the driving lanes are all clogged up, his poor outside shooting becomes exposed. Contrast his skill with Carmelo. Carmelo has a lot more in offensive repertoire than the drive-and-dunk-only Lebronze. And it was on full display in this year's Worlds. He carried team USA on his back!


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

DKaiser said:


> There was a double digit advantage for Greece with two minutes to go and they were winding down the clock real well.


Actually the lead was down to 3 at one point in the game. 



DKaiser said:


> If Greece couldn't guard Lebron, then team USA would've won it easy, won't they? You call 17 points unstoppable? Give me a break!


It wasn't Greece's defense that beat the USA, stupid, it was their offense. In the 3rd quarter the Americans couldn't figure out how to stop a pick&roll play, that's why Schortsanitis, Papaloukas and all the others scored so easily. And in the 4th, Greece hit just everything. That's why the US lost.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

I can't believe American fans are stereotyped as arrogant compared to what I've seen on here the past few years.


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## Matej (Aug 14, 2005)

bender said:


> Actually the lead was down to 3 at one point in the game.


These are last three minutes:

00:00 END of game
00:00 No.4 Papaloukas, Theodoros (GRE) got the defensive rebound
00:02 No.10 Paul, Chris (USA) missed the 3 point field goal attempt
00:06 No.9 Wade, Dwyane (USA) got the offensive rebound
00:09 No.6 James, Lebron (USA) missed the 3 point field goal attempt
00:16 USA - Time Out
00:16 No.4 Johnson, Joe (USA) gets a personal foul
00:16 *101 : 95* No.15 Kakiouzis, Michail (GRE) made 2nd freethrow
00:16 *100 : 95* No.15 Kakiouzis, Michail (GRE) made a freethrow
00:16 No.15 Kakiouzis, Michail (GRE) received a foul
00:17 *99 : 95* No.6 James, Lebron (USA) made two points inside the paint
00:24 No.10 Paul, Chris (USA) gets a personal foul
00:24 *99 : 93* No.9 Fotsis, Antonios (GRE) made 2nd freethrow
00:24 *98 : 93* No.9 Fotsis, Antonios (GRE) made a freethrow
00:24 No.9 Fotsis, Antonios (GRE) received a foul
00:24 No.9 Fotsis, Antonios (GRE) got the defensive rebound
00:25 No.15 Anthony, Carmelo (USA) missed the 3 point field goal attempt
00:27 *97 : 93* No.6 James, Lebron (USA) made two points inside the paint
00:27 No.6 James, Lebron (USA) got the offensive rebound
00:27 No.9 Fotsis, Antonios (GRE) Turnover, 5s
00:30 No.6 James, Lebron (USA) missed the shot inside the paint
00:36 Substitution for USA - Hinrich, Kirk (out); Paul, Chris (in)
00:36 No.5 Hinrich, Kirk (USA) gets a personal foul
00:36 *95 : 91* No.5 Hinrich, Kirk (USA) hit the 3 point shot (*** No. 9)
00:36 Substitution for GRE - Tsartsaris, Konstantinos (out); Fotsis, Antonios (in)
00:36 *97 : 91* No.15 Kakiouzis, Michail (GRE) made 2nd freethrow
00:36 *96 : 91* No.15 Kakiouzis, Michail (GRE) made a freethrow
00:36 Substitution for GRE - Schortsianitis, Sofoklis (out); Tsartsaris, Konstantinos (in)
00:36 No.15 Kakiouzis, Michail (GRE) received a foul
00:45 No.9 Wade, Dwyane (USA) gets a personal foul
00:45 *95 : 88* No.7 Spanoulis, Vasileios (GRE) made 2nd freethrow
00:45 No.7 Spanoulis, Vasileios (GRE) missed a freethrow
00:45 No.7 Spanoulis, Vasileios (GRE) received a foul
00:47 No.13 Diamantidis, Dimitrios (GRE) got the offensive rebound
00:51 No.15 Kakiouzis, Michail (GRE) missed the 3 point field goal attempt
01:09 *94 : 88* No.9 Wade, Dwyane (USA) made two points inside the paint (*** No. 6)
01:12 No.6 James, Lebron (USA) stole the ball
01:12 No.7 Spanoulis, Vasileios (GRE) Turnover, Ball handling
01:30 No.15 Kakiouzis, Michail (GRE) got the defensive rebound
01:32 No.9 Wade, Dwyane (USA) missed the 3 point field goal attempt
01:59 *94 : 86* No.7 Spanoulis, Vasileios (GRE) hit the 3 point shot
02:17 USA - Time Out
02:17 No.5 Hinrich, Kirk (USA) made an unsportsmenlike foul
02:17 No.5 Schortsianitis, Sofoklis (GRE) missed 2nd freethrow
02:17 No.5 Schortsianitis, Sofoklis (GRE) missed a freethrow
02:17 No.5 Schortsianitis, Sofoklis (GRE) received a foul
02:41 *91 : 86* No.5 Hinrich, Kirk (USA) hit the 3 point shot (*** No. 9)
02:51 *91 : 83* No.7 Spanoulis, Vasileios (GRE) made two points inside the paint
03:13 *89 : 83* No.6 James, Lebron (USA) made two points inside the paint

No three-point lead for Greece. And I too don't understand why LeBron went to the basket rather than shoot for three or to pass to somebody who's a good three point shooter.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

When you have 3 minutes left in a close game(4-6 points is a close game no matter where you play) you don't start jacking 3's. You score as many times down as you can and put the pressure on the other team to answer--which Greece did. The problem wasn't Lebron's shot selection, his shot selection was in line with what most teams want in close games--the problem was Team USA didn't get the stops it needed.

And DKaiser, NBA ball is all that matters for legacy. When Lebron is 31, no one will care how many gold bronze or silver medals he got. They will count rings, MVPs, and overall performance in the NBA.

If International Ball was really the best measure of a player, you wouldn't see so many international players wanting to come over to the NBA and test their skills for less money. Sure there are some exceptions, but I would contend those are players who do not have the competive fire, and just want to make money at the game. International Derrick Coleman's.

You make your name in the US and in the world, in the NBA. So if you really want to rate players, you should watch the NBA.


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## Matej (Aug 14, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> When you have 3 minutes left in a close game(4-6 points is a close game no matter where you play) you don't start jacking 3's. You score as many times down as you can and put the pressure on the other team to answer--which Greece did. The problem wasn't Lebron's shot selection, his shot selection was in line with what most teams want in close games--the problem was Team USA didn't get the stops it needed.
> 
> And DKaiser, NBA ball is all that matters for legacy. When Lebron is 31, no one will care how many gold bronze or silver medals he got. They will count rings, MVPs, and overall performance in the NBA.
> 
> ...



Yeah well, WC is getting more and more important, so when Lebron is 31 it might count how many gold medals he got at the WC and OG...


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

bender said:


> It wasn't Greece's defense that beat the USA, stupid, it was their offense. In the 3rd quarter the Americans couldn't figure out how to stop a pick&roll play, that's why Schortsanitis, Papaloukas and all the others scored so easily. And in the 4th, Greece hit just everything. That's why the US lost.


Hogwash! Of course Greece's defense contributed to that great run at the end of the first half. They went from down 12 points to up by 15 in the 3rd quarter. If they didn't make the stops, they'd be exchanging baskets and the that 12-point lead would stay as 12-point lead, wouldn't it? To come back from that deficit and lead by as much, especially against team USA, they had to do well on both ends of the court. And that's exactly what happened. Team USA got outplayed, outwitted in that game, period.


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> When you have 3 minutes left in a close game(4-6 points is a close game no matter where you play) you don't start jacking 3's.


In the NBA, that would work. In the international game, especially against world-class teams, 10 points is a huge lead (though not necessarily insurmountable) with two minutes to go. These teams would wind down the clock real well.



futuristxen said:


> When Lebron is 31, no one will care how many gold bronze or silver medals he got. They will count rings, MVPs, and overall performance in the NBA.


If that's so, why the heck then is USA basketball on this journey (as coach K puts it) to re-claiming the Gold? Why bother fielding elite NBA players if, in the end, "no one will care how many gold bronze or silver medals he got"? Well, that's because it matters. Deep inside, they know those awards they get in the NBA would have an asterisk sign above it. The international teams that beat them would say "they aren't great...we played against their elite selection and beat them". This is what team USA wanted to silence. Problem is, it's getting louder!


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## DKaiser (Jul 28, 2006)

Ok, it seems that every time I make a criticism about Lebron's game, his die-hard fans here comes to his defense. What touched some nerves is when I start comparing him to Dennis Rodman.

I don't know what's insulting about that. Dennis Rodman was good player. He helped the Pistons win 2 NBA championships and then helped Michael Jordan win 3. He was Defensive Player of the Year and was also known for his uncanny ability to rebound in traffic despite being 6'8". He could run the floor and finish fast-breaks real well. The downsides of his basketball repertoire are shooting (mid- or long-range) and free-throws.

Think about those abilities just mentioned. Take away the NBA titles and Defensive Player award. Reduce the defensive and rebounding abilities. Add dribbling ability and a good but unpolished passing skill. Then, for finishing touches, add an aggressive marketing campaign. Voila! You got Lebron James.

Yeah, yeah...I know you'll accuse me of not seeing any NBA game. Trust me, I've watched every major playoff game since Dr. J won it in 1983. I'm not saying Lebron's a lousy player. I'm saying he's just somewhere among the elite NBA players of his draft class. I think Lebron would be the first to say that he's proven nothing yet. In fact, in his draft class, I think he's got some distance behind Carmelo and Wade.


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