# Why I Flipped on Jeff Green



## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

A few months ago, I was down on Jeff Green. I thought that his lack of athleticism and lack of clear-cut position made him a lesser prospect and that his appearance with Georgetown on national TV so often had led people to overestimate his future.

Now I find myself rooting more and more that he will somehow end up a Blazer.

Why? I've documented my reasons elsewhere, but I wanted to lay them out here so I can look foolish when he washes out of the league after three or four years.

In any event, here are my reasons:


He's experienced without being old. He's a junior, with three years of solid play in the Big East, but he's still only 20. He turns 21 at the end of August, and he's 
He's big and strong. He measured out at almost 6'10" in his shoes, with a pretty good wingspan and standing reach.
He's athletic and strong. He placed 18th overall in athletic combine results, including 17 bench presses. His lane agility result was unimpressive, but his leaping was pretty good for someone who's considered by many (including me) to potentially be too ground-bound to succeed in the NBA.
He's smart. Everything I've seen and read is that he understands the game. I'm not a huge "little things" guy, but the fact is that some players do them better than others, and Green seems to be one of those guys who can put up stats and do the little things that help a team win.
He's skilled. He handles the ball. He passes it. He shoots efficiently, and he rebounds. He is a potentially excellent jack of all trades (a la Roy).

I know that Brewer still is the favorite on this board at the small forward spot, and Thornton seems to have his fans, too, but with Julian Wright testing so poorly and Green coming off so well (augmenting his successes on the floor before the combine), I'm throwing my support (fwiw) behind Green.

Ed O.


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## Samuel (Jan 1, 2003)

It's starting to look more and more like he'll pull out of the draft for the reasons you mention.

His Georgetown Bulldogs would be top 3 in the polls throughout the season, and with Roy Hibbert returning, JT3 has a chance to take his team to the national championship. Green would be the poster boy in such a scenario.

Green will get a good look at the things he needs to improve on with all this NBA contact. He knows what the scouts think of him and what they want to see from him... aggression, and bursts of scoring. He's been criticized for his passivity.

I'm not sure of the later two things are possible in Georgetown's offense, but who knows. 

Looking preliminarily at the 2008 draft, he could definitely leapfrog a lot of younger guys, and now teams will know that he 'could' have gone late lottery, he just chose not to.

Of course, if his stock rises to the 6-9 range, he might just come out this year. Hard to say at this point.


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## ebott (Jan 7, 2003)

I concur. 

My draft day dream is that he's still undervalued and we can do the Jack to Atlanta for #11 deal that's supposedly on the table and snag Green with that pick.

But if we did something like Zach to Boston for Theo and #5 I would use the #5 on Green.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Draft Promises can always play a factor....BTW when is the Early entry withdrawal date? Isn't it this thursday?

June 18th....Next Monday


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

The odd thing is that he's worked out for Chicago (#9) and Philly (#12).

Sounds like the workout for the 76ers went well, but if he ONLY wants to go in the 6-9 range, why did he work out for them? I don't blame him at all, but it's just a bit odd.

I'd read that the Bobcats were supposed to have Brewer and JWright and Green and TYoung all work out together last week... does anyone know if that happened?

Ed O.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

For a second I thought you flipped oFF Jeff Green, and was wondering what he did to deserve such treatment.

Nevermind.


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## QRICH (Feb 2, 2004)

I'm on the Jeff Green bandwagon. The guy is solid. A glue player that we could really use on this team.


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

for me
1. Green
2. Young
3. Wright
4. Brewer
5. Thornton

I just think Green would fit in perfectly and I'm attracted to the fact that he both moves well without the ball, and doesn't need the ball to score


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

All indications are that philly will take thad young or jeff green at 12,if portland were to move up to no 5 then taking green would be a mistake,im pretty sure that horford or yi would be available there


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## yakbladder (Sep 13, 2003)

I think Green is good, I think his combine scores were nice, I think Brewer is a tad on the skinny side. But I also think that except for Oden, we're going for more veteran talent. Not saying we should be, I just think we are.


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## QRICH (Feb 2, 2004)

Why would Philly want Young or Green when they have a young three already in Iguadala?


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Assuming the Blazers don't get an even higher pick to land Corey Brewer (i.e. Zach to Boston for Theo and No. 5), if Green is available at 11, I'd definitely take him there. I'd prefer a better defensive SF, but Green does everything else well. As we saw last year with Brandon Roy, guys that do multiple things well are very valuable and adjust their game as needed to fit in well with their teammates. Green at the 3 would definitely be a good complimentary player to Oden, Aldridge, Roy and Blake??/Sergio. 

He won't be a superstar, but he doesn't need to be. A very solid role player that does multiple things well is needed on every championship team. Rosters built with too many future Hall of Famers rarely win championships* - they usually get beat by teams with 2 superstars surrounded by very good role players.

BNM


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## wizmentor (Nov 10, 2005)

I don't know much about Green (except what I've read), I've only seen him in 1 game. However, if we get a lottery pick, I think we should get an SF that can really shoot. nbadraft.net rates his shooting a 6/10 - that makes me nervous.


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## Yega1979 (Mar 22, 2003)

QRICH said:


> I'm on the Jeff Green bandwagon. The guy is solid. A glue player that we could really use on this team.


What do you think of Green converting to PF in the NBA? He's big enough to play PF and his strength is his post game.


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

www.starbury.com said:


> All indications are that philly will take thad young or jeff green at 12,if portland were to move up to no 5 then taking green would be a mistake,im pretty sure that horford or yi would be available there


I agree. Even if Green is a true SF, and I have my doubts, you don't pass on a clearly better player!


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## SamOwie (Jun 6, 2007)

I've been struggling with my opinions on Green as well, so good post. 

One thing that concerns me is rebounding, 6 boards a game for a 6'9.5 guy who played 30 mins a game is rather unimpressive, to be polite. I've been rationalizing that it is because Georgetown and the Big-East in general play a slower game. The Princeton offense is rather deliberate and GT plays hard on D so there are fewer shot attempts at both ends, right? 

I do think he's going to struggle offensively in the NBA, he's not going to be able to take many guys off the dribble, even at the 4. Obviously he needs to improve, same for everybody else. 

It's really too bad 1991 Scottie Pippen isn't available with the 37th pick.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

i'm glad you're coming around on green, ed. i love green's game. unfortunately, i don't think we can get him unless we can get a pick in the 5-7 range.


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

QRICH said:


> Why would Philly want Young or Green when they have a young three already in Iguadala?


Iggy is a SG 

Not even close to being a 3


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## GOD (Jun 22, 2003)

As I said in another thread, I keep flipping on SF's, but at the moment, I am higher on Green then any other except for Durant. The problem is I really think there is somthing to his true position being PF. But I think he could play both positions, and if we trade Zach, he could play backup at both spots. 

His shooting doesn't concern me. His game was more inside then out, yet he still shot 40% from 3pt and 70% from the stripe with an overall FG of 50%. I think in the NBA, he will work on shooting more, but I love his ability to slide into many different roles. He can help facilitate the game. I think have smart unselfish players alongside Oden will be key to building a winning franchise, and that's the kind of kid Green is. 

In order, this is my curret SF ranking

1)Durant - but I don't want him because that means we don't get Oden.

2) Jeff Green
3a) Al Thornton
3b) Thad Young
5) Brewer
6) Nick Young
7) J. Wright


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## LameR (Jan 4, 2004)

Nate McVillain said:


> In order, this is my curret SF ranking
> 
> 1)Durant - but I don't want him because that means we don't get Oden.
> 
> ...


This is pretty similar to mine. I haven't really seen Thornton play, so I don't have him ranked as high, but that's essentially how I'm feeling right now.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

SamOwie said:


> One thing that concerns me is rebounding, 6 boards a game for a 6'9.5 guy who played 30 mins a game is rather unimpressive, to be polite. I've been rationalizing that it is because Georgetown and the Big-East in general play a slower game. The Princeton offense is rather deliberate and GT plays hard on D so there are fewer shot attempts at both ends, right?


Actually, Green's pace adjusted reb/40 is pretty impressive for a 3/4 playing the shorter college game with a 35 second shot clock. Throw in the fact that he payed next to a 7'2" center and his rebounding is definitely not a weakness. I know everyone expects all these kids to pull down double digit rebounds, but it's just not realistic in the shorter, slower, lower scoring college game (especially the way Georgetown plays).

BNM


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## Draco (Jun 28, 2003)

People might be giving Green too much praise and Brewer not enough for their predraft measurements. They both have a standing reach of 8'7" even though Brewer measured 1" shorter. It doesn't matter where your head is at in basketball, its how high your hands can reach. 

You can't train for height tests so I do value those, but the vertical jump, bench press, and speed/agility drills should only be a very small piece of information for evaluating draft picks. You can traing for those events to greatly increase your results. You know what they say, sometimes you get what you test for.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Draco said:


> People might be giving Green too much praise and Brewer not enough for their predraft measurements. They both have a standing reach of 8'7" even though Brewer measured 1" shorter. It doesn't matter where your head is at in basketball, its how high your hands can reach.


Green had 4.5 inch wider wingspan than Brewer. He outweighs Brewer by 43 pounds. He outjumped him and outlifted him...

How can Brewer be given too little credit for getting outclassed so thoroughly?

This isn't a case of Green being some sort of workout warrior, either. He was the player of the year in the Big East... Brewer might not even have been one of the top two players on his own team. Green's impressive workout just solidifies the productive career he had at GTown.

Ed O.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

Ed O said:


> Green had 4.5 inch wider wingspan than Brewer. He outweighs Brewer by 43 pounds. He outjumped him and outlifted him...
> 
> How can Brewer be given too little credit for getting outclassed so thoroughly?
> 
> ...


I suppose BPA should rule the day so if it comes down to Green vs. Brewer, maybe Green should win out. I'm nervous about that though, because Green seems potentially a "bad" kind of tweener in that he may not be fast enough to stay with NBA SFs and may not be big enough to guard NBA PFs, where as Brewer seems more likely to be the "good" sort of tweener, pretty equally able to defend at least SG and SF and potentially PG and PF.

On offense I can more easily believe that Green wins out over Brewer but defense is at least half the game (since you need to play defense every trip down but aren't necessarily involved every play on offense) _and_ I really want someone who's better than Roy at defending 2s and 3s.

The more I think about it, the more I like the proposed Randolph for Wally and #5 from Boston.


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

For some reason I keep mentally changing the word "on" to "off" when I read the title of this thread.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

I did too. Then I was wondering, why does Ed O hate Jeff Green so much that he flipped him off. :biggrin:


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## ProudBFan (Apr 29, 2003)

Oh... I mis-read the Subject line...

I thought it read, "Why I Flipped off Jeff Green".

Interesting read, nonetheless.

PBF


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

PorterIn2004 said:


> I suppose BPA should rule the day so if it comes down to Green vs. Brewer, maybe Green should win out. I'm nervous about that though, because Green seems potentially a "bad" kind of tweener in that he may not be fast enough to stay with NBA SFs and may not be big enough to guard NBA PFs, where as Brewer seems more likely to be the "good" sort of tweener, pretty equally able to defend at least SG and SF and potentially PG and PF.
> 
> On offense I can more easily believe that Green wins out over Brewer but defense is at least half the game (since you need to play defense every trip down but aren't necessarily involved every play on offense) _and_ I really want someone who's better than Roy at defending 2s and 3s.


good point. Masbee pointed out in another thread that with Oden and Aldridge up front (and Outlaw likely a backup), we don't really need a 3/4 tweener next year. our twin towers are going to really limit the ability for larger small forwards to be able to punish us inside. 

however, we still don't really have much in the way of perimeter defenders. Roy will probably become a decent one eventually, but isn't there yet. besides, he's going to need to expend a lot of energy on the offensive end. Jack is way overrated. Udoka is about all we've got, and nobody sees him as a long-term solution at SF. 

I'm all for BPA. but if it looks to Pritchard like they are pretty close in talent and we have an option to pick either, I'd still prefer Brewer. there are too many good slashing/shooting wing men in this league to not have a quality lockdown defender there.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

You can argue all you want about stats, leaping, etc, but it all comes down to how they ball, and how they compete. Brewer was continually the type of player who made plays when the game was on the line, lock down defender, and even though possibly the 3rd best player on Florida, that is not bad when the team will have at least 4 guys in the NBA this year. 

If there is one guy that Brewer reminds me of, its Josh Howard. He didn't turn out so bad.

Green I believe will end up more of a Tim Thomas. Not bad. But not a Josh Howard type.


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## RedHot&Rolling (Jun 26, 2004)

I like Jeff Green. I like Corey Brewer.

Green seems like a potential tweener negatively. But he's polished and had three years of college (Roy!).

Brewer reminds me of Josh Howard. Explosive when he's on and a bit more defensive minded. We could use that on our team. He also has good range for hitting open threes.

I hope they draft........

Oden.

Then, if they believe one of these guys can be better than Outlaw or Webster, then figure out a way to get them.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

hasoos said:


> You can argue all you want about stats, leaping, etc, but it all comes down to how they ball, and how they compete. Brewer was continually the type of player who made plays when the game was on the line, lock down defender, and even though possibly the 3rd best player on Florida, that is not bad when the team will have at least 4 guys in the NBA this year.
> 
> If there is one guy that Brewer reminds me of, its Josh Howard. He didn't turn out so bad.
> 
> Green I believe will end up more of a Tim Thomas. Not bad. But not a Josh Howard type.


I can understand this point if we were comparing Brewer to, say, Julian Wright (a young, talented player who hasn't really done much at the college level) or a prospect from a smaller school.

But Green was the Big East player of the year as a junior. He was Big East co-rookie of the year as a freshman (and Basketball Times's national freshman of the year). He was second-team all Big East as a sophomore. He led his team deep into the NCAA tournament, including hitting a game-winner in the third round.

Green's production and performances have been BETTER than Brewer's. He didn't play in back-to-back championship games, so people didn't see him as much, but given his superior collegiate career AND superior combine numbers, I definitely prefer him to Brewer.

Ed O.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

Ed O said:


> I can understand this point if we were comparing Brewer to, say, Julian Wright (a young, talented player who hasn't really done much at the college level) or a prospect from a smaller school.
> 
> But Green was the Big East player of the year as a junior. He was Big East co-rookie of the year as a freshman (and Basketball Times's national freshman of the year). He was second-team all Big East as a sophomore. He led his team deep into the NCAA tournament, including hitting a game-winner in the third round.
> 
> ...


You can argue the numbers things all you want. He played more minutes then Brewer, and yet only was marginally better in numbers per game, yet at the same time I would also argue that Brewer is not asked to do as much for his team, as they had a heavier talent level. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Jeff Green. I just don't think he is the option that Brewer is. Put it this way. I have some concerns with Jeff Greens speed


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

I'll put it this way, I have problems with Brewers size, strength, ball handling ability, floor spacing knowledge, and shooting. I don't want young Bruce Bowen!


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

darkhelmit54 said:


> I don't want young Bruce Bowen!


With the rest of the team so young - a young Bruce Bowen would be fantastic - as he grows with Oden (Robinson+, we hope), Aldridge (Duncan-, we hope) and Roy (young Manu?) / Sergio/Jack (Parker? hmm... harder to compare these two to Parker).

A Bruce Bowen like player (great perimeter defensive wing that can hit the 3) is exactly what a team like Portland needs. Exactly.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

darkhelmit54 said:


> I'll put it this way, I have problems with Brewers size, strength, ball handling ability, floor spacing knowledge, and shooting. I don't want young Bruce Bowen!


Hey, what's wrong with Brewer's strength? He was one of the few guys at Orlando asked to bench press his own weight and did it 11 times. He's not going to win an Olympic gold medal in weight lifting, but it's not like he's Kevin Durant weak.

Seriously, I'd take Brewer over Green for his better defense, Green over Thortnon for his better all-around game and basketball IQ, and Thornton over Thad Young or Julian Wright for his proven scoring ability and better outside shot. That's my wish list for a SF, in that order, if we get an additional pick (and it's not the second pick - then I'd take Durant in spite of his 98-lb weakling status).

BNM


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Ed O said:


> Green's production and performances have been BETTER than Brewer's. He didn't play in back-to-back championship games, so people didn't see him as much, but given his superior collegiate career AND superior combine numbers, I definitely prefer him to Brewer.


Given you're arguments about Thornton's superior outside shooting being negligible, I'm surprised you'd make such a strong statement about Green's numbers being BETTER (all caps, no less). Yeah, he scored 1.1 more PPG on 0.7 more FGA and his PER was 24.1 vs. 22.8. So, SLIGHT advantage to Green in individual offensive stats. I'll give you that. But offense is only half the game and Brewer is far superior to Green at the other half.

Also, Brewer played on a team with a very balanced offense. He averaged 13.2 PPG on a team where all five starters averaged between 10.3 and 13.3 PPG (four between 12.0 and 13.3 PPG) and all attempted between 286 and 356 FGs (286, 305, 306, 347, 356) for the season. Obviously, his individual offensive stats were diluted by the fact that he played on a team with two other high lottery picks and a fourth player possibly going late first round or early second round the the latest. Green was the leading scorer on a team that would have had one other player drafted - had he not decided to go back to college. And Green took 92 more shots (382) than any of his teammates (262, 276, 277, 290, 382). He was clearly their number one option on offense. So, you'd expect his offensive numbers to be higher than Brewer's, which they are - slightly.

And yes, the fact that Brewer was a key player in Florida's back-to-back national championship teams is a factor. He's proven himself to be an outstanding role player on a championship team - and that's EXACTLY what I want in a small forward for this Blazer team. I don't want a guy who wants to be the number one option on offense or needs a lot of touches to be effective, but is still capable of knocking down the big shot when needed, and capable of playing lock down perimeter defense - just like he did at Florida.

BNM


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## SodaPopinski (Aug 10, 2004)

I don't like the fact that he disappeared in the biggest game of his career against Ohio State this year in the tourney.

It's worth noting this is the exact reason why I LIKED Brandon Roy coming into the draft last year. He CARRIED a mediocre Huskies team to the Elite 8 and played some of his best games against tough competition in a win-or-go-home format. I like that in a player.

I'm not sure Jeff Green fits that mold. If you look at his numbers or how he's playing in these controlled environments in his pre-draft workouts, I can see how you'd get enamored. But I want to know how he's going to play in the 4th quarter, when the team needs someone to step up to get them a victory.

I'm not sold on Jeff Green at all.

-Pop


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

i'm still torn between green and brewer, although i'm leaning more towards green now after the combine numbers. brewer's wingspan wasn't what i was expecting. a deciding factor for me is who will be able to improve on their outside shooting more. with green's shooting mechanic, i'm going to have to go with green as the player more likely to improve his shot.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Boob-No-More said:


> But offense is only half the game and Brewer is far superior to Green at the other half.


This seems to be thrown around a lot; I'm not sure it's at all true. Green was one of the best defenders in the Big East this year.



> Also, Brewer played on a team with a very balanced offense. He averaged 13.2 PPG on a team where all five starters averaged between 10.3 and 13.3 PPG (four between 12.0 and 13.3 PPG) and all attempted between 286 and 356 FGs (286, 305, 306, 347, 356) for the season.


I'm not sure that's different than Georgetown... they had five players between 14.3 and 9.1 ppg who all attempted between 262 and 382 FGs in the season. It's a wider spread than Florida, for sure, but not THAT much more.



> He was clearly their number one option on offense.  So, you'd expect his offensive numbers to be higher than Brewer's, which they are - slightly.


There's no question that his numbers weren't much better, but the pace of the two teams should be considered... the Gators scored about 80 ppg, while the Hoyas scored 70. I don't know where the two teams are in terms of pace, but just as a rough estimate that's a 14% increase in stats across the board because of Florida's higher scoring.



> And yes, the fact that Brewer was a key player in Florida's back-to-back national championship teams is a factor. He's proven himself to be an outstanding role player on a championship team - and that's EXACTLY what I want in a small forward for this Blazer team. I don't want a guy who wants to be the number one option on offense or needs a lot of touches to be effective, but is still capable of knocking down the big shot when needed, and capable of playing lock down perimeter defense - just like he did at Florida.


If this were a Thornton v. Brewer debate, I'd totally buy it. The fact is, though, that other than the championships, the same arguments could be made about Green that you're making about Brewer. Green IS a very good perimeter defender. He DOES do things without the ball (the Princeton offense that Georgetown runs makes that sort of mandatory). He rebounds, he passes well, he handles the ball.

He's also bigger and stronger and a better shooter.

Ed O.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Ed O said:


> There's no question that his numbers weren't much better, but the pace of the two teams should be considered... the Gators scored about 80 ppg, while the Hoyas scored 70. I don't know where the two teams are in terms of pace, but just as a rough estimate that's a 14% increase in stats across the board because of Florida's higher scoring.


Pace adjusted PT/40:

Green = 19.2
Brewer = 18.4

Again, a very sligtht advantage for Green (as expected), but not enough IMHO to make up for Brewer's better perimeter defense.

It's only one stat, and it's as much about playing the passing lanes as face up man defense, but Brewer averaged 2.6 pace adjusted steals/40 compared to 1.0 for Green. It doesn't really show Brewer's overall defensive superiority, but it gives you a glimpes at the kind if impact he has on the defensive end of the court. To really appreciate his defense, you need to watch him play.

Brewer is a much better perimeter defender and will be able to guard boths 2s and 3s in the NBA. I don't think Green has the lateral quickness to guard most NBA 3s and although big for a 3, isn't exactly ideally suited to guarding bigger, stronger NBA 4s either - not that we'd really want him too with Oden and Aldridge providing interior defense. What I REALLY want is someone who can clamp own on the other team's best perimeter scorer. To me, Corey Brewer is MUCH better suited to that task than Jeff Green.

BNM


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## magnifier (Jul 2, 2003)

Ed O said:


> I know that Brewer still is the favorite on this board at the small forward spot, and Thornton seems to have his fans, too, but with Julian Wright testing so poorly and Green coming off so well (augmenting his successes on the floor before the combine), I'm throwing my support (fwiw) behind Green.
> 
> Ed O.


I'm there with ya Ed. I absolutely think Green will be the Dark horse in the draft class. He's got all the skills to contribute, RIGHT NOW. I would love if KP was able to grab him.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Ed O said:


> He's also bigger and stronger


Important in a 4/5, but no as much in a 3.

Brewer is much faster and quicker than Green. IMHO, a more important skill set in a perimeter player than size and strength. Of the 15 players that posted a 3.22 or faster 3/4 court sprint, Brewer was the tallest (by an inch over Al Thorton and Thad Young). By comparison, Green's time of 3.34 is very unimpresive for a guy only an inch taller than Brewer and truly unexceptional for a guy who will be asked to guard small forwards in the NBA. There were multiple power forwards and one center (guess who) who were faster. Green's lateral quicknes is also inferior for a 3.

These are just numbers and don't tell the whole story, but in a perimeter defender, I'd generally take the guy who's a step (or two) faster/quicker over the guy who's an inch taller and has the same standing reach.

I think the real difference is I place a higher priority on perimeter defense at the 3 than scoring (where Green is only SLIGHTLY better) and passing (where Green is again only very slightly better 4.3 pace adjusted Assists/40 vs. 4.1 ). We already have our PG and Roy to handle the ball, run the offense and pass to open teammates. What we REALLY lack is an exceptional perimeter defender. Roy is already about average on defense and may get better, but I don't see him becoming a true defensive stopper. Sergio, if he really is our PG of the future is a very weak defender, but a great passer. So, to me, this team's needs Brewer's superior perimeter defense more than Green's slightly better scoring and passing.

BNM


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

andalusian said:


> With the rest of the team so young - a young Bruce Bowen would be fantastic - as he grows with Oden (Robinson+, we hope), Aldridge (Duncan-, we hope) and Roy (young Manu?) / Sergio/Jack (Parker? hmm... harder to compare these two to Parker).
> 
> A Bruce Bowen like player (great perimeter defensive wing that can hit the 3) is exactly what a team like Portland needs. Exactly.


I think that there's lots of SF's the spurs would be better with than Bowen personally.


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

Boob-No-More said:


> Seriously, I'd take Brewer over Green for his better defense


It'd be funny to watch him try to defend Kobe, Mcgrady, Maggette, Carter, Pierce, Jefferson, Lebron, Carmello or any other strong offensive player. They'd push him around like a rag doll while still being quicker.


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## magnifier (Jul 2, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> Brewer is much faster and quicker than Green. IMHO, a more important skill set in a perimeter player than size and strength. Of the 15 players that posted a 3.22 or faster 3/4 court sprint, Brewer was the tallest (by an inch over Al Thorton and Thad Young). By comparison, Green's time of 3.34 is very unimpresive for a guy only an inch taller than Brewer and truly unexceptional for a guy who will be asked to guard small forwards in the NBA. There were multiple power forwards and one center (guess who) who were faster. Green's lateral quicknes is also inferior for a 3.


These were the same arguments about picking Gay over Roy. Sometimes, atheticism isn't the only answer. I think Green, at least from what I saw in College, has a good NBA head on his shoulders. Don't get me wrong, Brewer is solid and probably going to be one of the best defenders in this class, but Green should be a solid contributor in the league.


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

SodaPopinski said:


> I don't like the fact that he disappeared in the biggest game of his career against Ohio State this year in the tourney.
> 
> It's worth noting this is the exact reason why I LIKED Brandon Roy coming into the draft last year. He CARRIED a mediocre Huskies team to the Elite 8 and played some of his best games against tough competition in a win-or-go-home format. I like that in a player.
> 
> ...


One bad game in which the interior was being defended by the biggest and best center in college basketball (whom we will have next year), the game before that he lifted his team perhaps more than any other player in any game of the tourney getting his team TO THE FINAL FOUR, which is more than Roy did. We can't have 5 guys who want the shot at the end of the game. With Sergio, Roy, Aldridge, and Oden we need a guy who doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective, is skilled at spacing the floor and moving without the ball (PRINCETON OFFENSE BABY), has a skilled mid-range game, and is a good passer (any time Aldridge or Oden get a good pass deep they'll flush over almost anyone), and is unselfish, not needing to be the man. This is Jeff Green, he is a Shane Battier-Brandon Roy hybrid, and stronger than either one.


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

Boob-No-More said:


> 1. Obviously, his individual offensive stats were diluted by the fact that he played on a team with two other high lottery picks and a fourth player possibly going late first round or early second round the the latest. Green was the leading scorer on a team that would have had one other player drafted - had he not decided to go back to college. And Green took 92 more shots (382) than any of his teammates (262, 276, 277, 290, 382). He was clearly their number one option on offense. So, you'd expect his offensive numbers to be higher than Brewer's, which they are - slightly.
> 
> 2. I don't want a guy who wants to be the number one option on offense or needs a lot of touches to be effective, but is still capable of knocking down the big shot when needed, and capable of playing lock down perimeter defense - just like he did at Florida.
> BNM


1. Could you consider that possibly it was harder for Green to score considering he was the #1 option and around less talent where the defense keyed on him more while Brewer could get easy buckets all the time due to the attention the Noah and Brewer down low, and a great perimeter shooter next to him. I think Brewers buckets came much easier than Green's personally.

2. Who says Green wanted to be the #1 option, what I saw was that he was clearly the most talented option on offense and the best passer so his teammates wanted him to have the ball in his hands, and he still got them involved all the time due to his unselfishness and being a great passer. In brewer I saw a guy who got a bunch of dump off buckets as he cut to the hoop with the D preoccupied and had open mid-range shots all game.

3. Yeah Green could lock down college SG's, who are much much smaller and slower than NBA SG's and SF's. And he had two great shotblockers behind him that teams were scared to get into the paint against so he could gamble right up on them. (Yeah I know he could do that here too, but so could Green)


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

magnifier said:


> These were the same arguments about picking Gay over Roy.


I don't know who was making these alleged arguments, but they were obviously very ill-informed. Other than bench press, where Gay did nine reps to Roy's six, Roy's numbers were better than Gay's. His standing vertical was an inch better, his max. vertical was the same and both his lane agility and 3/4 court sprint times were faster.

If anything, in this analogy, Roy = Brewer (smaller, faster, quicker) and Gay = Green (bigger, stronger, slower).

Yeah, there's more to basketball than raw athleticism, but when your playing against the best athletes in the world, you can never be too quick, but you can certainly be too slow.

BNM


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

magnifier said:


> These were the same arguments about picking Gay over Roy. Sometimes, atheticism isn't the only answer. I think Green, at least from what I saw in College, has a good NBA head on his shoulders. Don't get me wrong, Brewer is solid and probably going to be one of the best defenders in this class, but Green should be a solid contributor in the league.


Gay is STILL a better prospect than Roy. It was true at draft time. And Gay may yet end up the better player for their careers.

The Blazers drafted Roy over Gay because of the head on his shoulders, not the workout numbers. Pritchard said the interview with Roy vaulted him up their board.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

darkhelmit54 said:


> It'd be funny to watch him try to defend Kobe, Mcgrady, Maggette, Carter, Pierce, Jefferson, Lebron, Carmello or any other strong offensive player. They'd push him around like a rag doll while still being quicker.


Pure unjustified hyperbole. By bench pressing 185 lb. eleven times, Brewer showed that he's plenty strong for an NBA SF. Yes, he is slight and could stand to put on some weight/muscle. The same was said about LaMarcus last year. We drafted him, and in spite of shoulder surgery that kept him from lifting weights for over two months, he managed to put on about 15 lbs. of muscle and by March no one was doubting his ability to play with the big boys of the NBA. Draft Brewer and start him working with Bobby Medina and I'm convinced he'll also be able to easily put on 15 lbs. of muscle without slowing him down or screwing up his shot mechanics - just like Aldridge did last year.

BNM


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

Boob-No-More said:


> I don't know who was making these alleged arguments, but they were obviously very ill-informed. Other than bench press, where Gay did nine reps to Roy's six, Roy's numbers were better than Gay's. His standing vertical was an inch better, his max. vertical was the same and both his lane agility and 3/4 court sprint times were faster.
> 
> If anything, in this analogy, Roy = Brewer (smaller, faster, quicker) and Gay = Green (bigger, stronger, slower).
> 
> ...


Roy is a 2, Gay is a 3. Roy is SHOULD be faster than Gay.


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## GOD (Jun 22, 2003)

So although I like Green more than Brewer, I like both prospects, but I also have reservations about both. Here are some.

Position
Green may end up being more of a 4 than a 3
Brewer may end up being more of a 2 than a 3

Shooting
Green shoots all right, but the year before last, he shot only 31% from 3pt. (Last year up to 37%)
Brewer's 3pt shooting was worse last year than the year before, and worse that year then his freshman year. Not a good trend.

Defense
Green has the length to be a good defender, but his speed is not great, but it is allright, could have a hard time with faster 3's
Brewer is a rag doll. He D in college was very good, but his opponents in the NBA will be much stronger.

FT and REB
Neither are great FT shooters although they aren't bad (Green 77%, Brewer 72%) but I often look at FT ability as an indicator for shooting. Brewer gets to the line more than Green, but converts less.
Rebounding should be fine for Green at the next level, but I am not sur that Brewer will have the strength to battle.



Now here are some of the good things for both.

Defense - Both were good at the NCAA level. edge Brewer

Both are heady players who seem to understand the game well. edge Green

Both are real team players - tie

Both have played real big in big games - edge Brewer


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

darkhelmit54 said:


> 1. Could you consider that possibly it was harder for Green to score considering he was the #1 option and around less talent where the defense keyed on him more while Brewer could get easy buckets all the time due to the attention the Noah and Brewer down low, and a great perimeter shooter next to him. I think Brewers buckets came much easier than Green's personally.


Sure I could consider that. With Oden and Aldridge on the inside, Brewer would basically play the same role he did on Florida. Not sure why that's a knock on Brewer. He knew his role and played it well. I'll take easy buckets any day of the week and if Brewer knows an easy bucket when he sees it and takes advantage of the opportunity, that's exactly the type of opportunistic scorer I want at the three.



darkhelmit54 said:


> 2. Who says Green wanted to be the #1 option


Not me. What I said is he WAS the #1 option on offense for Georgetown - whether he wanted to be or not. He took 382 shots - that's 31% more shots than their second option. So, I don't think there's any argument he was their first option on offense, whether it's a role he wanted, or not, it's the role he played. I'm not sure how this strengths (or weakens) the case for Green over Brewer. They played very different roles, yet their offensive production, even after adjusted for pace, was very similar with a slight edge to Green - which I readily admit.

So, again it depends on what you value more. Green's very slightly better scoring and passing, or Brewer's better defense. Just so you don't think I'm anti-Green, I'd be happy if the Blazers got him - but, I'd be happier if they got Brewer. Green's skill set (scoring, passing) seems almost redundant to me, where Brewer brings something the team clearly lacks - perimeter defense.

BNM


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Masbee said:


> Roy is a 2, Gay is a 3. Roy is SHOULD be faster than Gay.


Just countering the myth that Gay is a better athlete than Roy. The perception is that he is. The numbers say otherwise.

And, Gay played more minutes at the 2 for Memphis this year than the 3. I'm not sure what their long term plans are for him. Probably depends on who else they have next to him. He started at the 2 with Miller at the 3 - until Miller got hurt near the end of March. Then they moved Gay to the 3 and started Tarance Kinsey at the 2. At this point, I'd call Gay a 2/3. If Miller is healthy, look for Gay to go back to starting at the 2.

BNM


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## darkhelmit54 (Jan 23, 2005)

Boob-No-More said:


> *1. Sure I could consider that. With Oden and Aldridge on the inside, Brewer would basically play the same role he did on Florida. Not sure why that's a knock on Brewer. He knew his role and played it well. I'll take easy buckets any day of the week and if Brewer knows an easy bucket when he sees it and takes advantage of the opportunity, that's exactly the type of opportunistic scorer I want at the three.*
> 
> I'm just saying that Green's role was probably harder, and that I think he could have done what Brewer did last year as well or better than Brewer. He can create his own offense, and I haven't seen if Brewer can.
> 
> ...


;ogeij;eoiwgjio


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## GOD (Jun 22, 2003)

KP his 3 home runs last year in Roy, Aldridge and Sergio (or at least 2hr's and a tripple) and everything points to a grand slam with Oden. I just think since we are doing so well putting together a team for the ages, let's try and his another home run. Green may not work out and he might be a bit more risky, but his ceiling is much higher than Brewers. IMO


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

Boob-No-More said:


> Just countering the myth that Gay is a better athlete than Roy. The perception is that he is. The numbers say otherwise.
> 
> And, Gay played more minutes at the 2 for Memphis this year than the 3. I'm not sure what their long term plans are for him. Probably depends on who else they have next to him. He started at the 2 with Miller at the 3 - until Miller got hurt near the end of March. Then they moved Gay to the 3 and started Tarance Kinsey at the 2. At this point, I'd call Gay a 2/3. If Miller is healthy, look for Gay to go back to starting at the 2.
> 
> BNM


Come on. Gay is a three.

That Miller - a three - was Memphis' best player with Gasol out causes these problems.

If you prefer, Roy is a 2/1, Gay is a 3/2.

Thus, Roy still is supposed to be faster than Gay. If they are equally quick, then Gay would be quicker - for his position.


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

After reading this thread, I have come to a firm conclusion: I still think Julian Wright should be the pick! :biggrin: 

Yes, he is the least polished of the three. I will even concede that he *might* be the most risky. OTOH, 3 years from now, he has a fair chance to clearly be the best of the three......and I am more interested in THEN, than now.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

personally.. I think it was just a matter of time before Ed O flipped out... :rofl:



all kidding aside.. nice thread...

Green sounds like a Jerome kind of guy


instincts say a lot for a player... NBADraft.net talks of this for him too.. this is a good thang


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

SodaPopinski said:


> I don't like the fact that he disappeared in the biggest game of his career against Ohio State this year in the tourney.
> 
> *It's worth noting this is the exact reason why I LIKED Brandon Roy coming into the draft last year. He CARRIED a mediocre Huskies team to the Elite 8 and played some of his best games against tough competition in a win-or-go-home format. I like that in a player.*
> 
> ...


I love Brandon Roy, but you can't give the Huskies that much credit. He never carried them to an elite 8.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

zagsfan20 said:


> I love Brandon Roy, but you can't give the Huskies that much credit. He never carried them to an elite 8.


Further, didn't Green just carry the Hoyas to a Final Four?

Ed O.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Ed O said:


> Further, didn't Green just carry the Hoyas to a Final Four?
> 
> Ed O.


Yeah, he did. I like Green and I've said that I like Green since Big East tournament play. Brewer is frail and isn't the kind of scorer that I would like out of the 3 spot.


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## magnifier (Jul 2, 2003)

Masbee said:


> Gay is STILL a better prospect than Roy. It was true at draft time. And Gay may yet end up the better player for their careers.
> 
> The Blazers drafted Roy over Gay because of the head on his shoulders, not the workout numbers. Pritchard said the interview with Roy vaulted him up their board.


This is my argument. I think you always want the smarter player. I think Roy will prove to have more value than Gay.


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## magnifier (Jul 2, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> I don't know who was making these alleged arguments, but they were obviously very ill-informed. Other than bench press, where Gay did nine reps to Roy's six, Roy's numbers were better than Gay's. His standing vertical was an inch better, his max. vertical was the same and both his lane agility and 3/4 court sprint times were faster.
> 
> If anything, in this analogy, Roy = Brewer (smaller, faster, quicker) and Gay = Green (bigger, stronger, slower).
> 
> ...


If you review the draft reviews on those players, they all admit that Gay has more athleticism than Roy. I personally think that's over-rated, (i.e. Miles).


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Ed O said:


> Further, didn't Green just carry the Hoyas to a Final Four?


No. He had a lot of help from Hibbert, who really stepped up his play in the tournament and would have been a fellow lottery pick had he stayed in the draft. Green played well in the tournament (other than vanishing on offense against Ohio State), but the play of Hibbert was just as vital to Georgetown's tournament success.

And while Corey Brewer was Florida's leading scorer in the tournament and vital to their success, I'd never say he carried the team to the national championship. Like Green, he had significant contributions from his teammates.

By comparison, there was no one other than Brandon Roy on the Huskies 2005-2006 team that will ever sniff the end of the bench in the NBA. Without Roy that team doesn't even make the tournament, let alone advance to the sweet 16. To me, that's the definition of carrying a team.

BNM


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

zagsfan20 said:


> Brewer is frail


In what way? Injury prone? Weak? Keep in mind he bench pressed 185 lbs. eleven times (compared to Kevin Durant at 0, Julian and Brandan Wright at 2 apiece). Being thin doesn't necessarily = being frail. Weren't you saying the same thing about LaMarcus Aldridge last summer?

BNM


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Boob-No-More said:


> No. He had a lot of help from Hibbert, who really stepped up his play in the tournament and would have been a fellow lottery pick had he stayed in the draft. Green played well in the tournament (other than vanishing on offense against Ohio State), but the play of Hibbert was just as vital to Georgetown's tournament success.
> 
> And while Corey Brewer was Florida's leading scorer in the tournament and vital to their success, I'd never say he carried the team to the national championship. Like Green, he had significant contributions from his teammates.
> 
> ...


Bobby Jones played 44 games last year for Philadelphia and started 5 of them. 

Not a knock on Brandon, I love him as a player. Just bringing up some facts.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Boob-No-More said:


> In what way? Injury prone? Weak? Keep in mind he bench pressed 185 lbs. eleven times (compared to Kevin Durant at 0, Julian and Brandan Wright at 2 apiece). Being thin doesn't necessarily = being frail. Weren't you saying the same thing about LaMarcus Aldridge last summer?
> 
> BNM


Look at the guys legs.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

zagsfan20 said:


> Look at the guys legs.


And??? Yes, they are skinny, but there are plenty of guys in the NBA with very thin legs. That doesn't mean they're frail. It's not like he has a history of career threatening leg injuries.

BNM


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

zagsfan20 said:


> Bobby Jones played 44 games last year for Philadelphia and started 5 of them.
> 
> Not a knock on Brandon, I love him as a player. Just bringing up some facts.


Missed that one. It's not like he was exactly a lottery pick (2nd rounder, averaged less than 10 PPG in the tournament). I maintain Roy carried that team while Green (and Brewer and Oden, etc.) had a lot more help from future lottery picks.

BNM


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Boob-No-More said:


> And??? Yes, they are skinny, but there are plenty of guys in the NBA with very thin legs. That doesn't mean they're frail. It's not like he has a history of career threatening leg injuries.
> 
> BNM


Shaun Livingston keeps on popping up in the back of my head when I look at his legs.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Boob-No-More said:


> Missed that one. It's not like he was exactly a lottery pick (2nd rounder, averaged less than 10 PPG in the tournament). I maintain Roy carried that team while Green (and Brewer and Oden, etc.) had a lot more help from future lottery picks.


Bobby Jones has been mentioned. Jamaal Williams was a senior and a real contributor. Brockman was a freshman, but a McDonald's All-American and very effective. Roy was HARDLY a one-man team.

Did he do more for the Huskies than Green did for the Hoyas? Maybe... but it's not that clear cut, and the Hoyas made it farther than UW, so it might cancel it out, anyway.

Ed O.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Ed O said:


> Bobby Jones has been mentioned. Jamaal Williams was a senior and a real contributor. Brockman was a freshman, but a McDonald's All-American and very effective. Roy was HARDLY a one-man team.


Come on Ed, a second rounder and a bunch of guys who will never be drafted. That hardly compares to Green's Georgetown teammates.

Brockman scored a total of 12 points and grabbed 10 rebounds in the tournament. 4 PPG and 3.3 RPG from your starting 4 is your definition of very effective? Brockman was much improved this year, but as a freshman he was a total non-factor in Washington advancing to the Sweet 16. He scored a total of 1 point in their two tournament wins. I'll give you that Williams scored well in the tournament, but Roy's supporting cast was nowhere near as good as Green's. Against Illinois, the game that got them to the Sweet 16, Roy's fellow starters combined for 28 points and shot 30% from the field. Roy had 21 points on 45.5%. I mean, you can't be serious. Hibbert, thanks in a large part to his play in the tournament, would have been a top 10 pick in this year's very deep draft if he hadn't decided to go back to school. That alone makes Green's supporting cast far superior to Roy's. Don't get me wrong, Green played very well in the tournament (14.4 PPG, 8.0 RPG and 2.2 APG), but Hibbert was just as good, if not better (14.2 PPG, 10.4 RPG. 2.0 APG and 2.4 BPG). Would Georgetown have made the Final Four without Green? No way, but he hardly "carried" the team. Hibbert was just as important.

BNM


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