# Is this the right group of young talent?



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Long gone are the days where stating Jefferson will be an all-star power forward was not outrageous. Perkins is not Ben Wallace in the making. Delonte, Telfair, or Rondo are not the answer to our franchise point guard needs. Do you still feel that our young players are core guys?

Personally, I view them as marginal starters, at best. I think Gomes and Delonte will be great off the bench. Perkins should become a good backup center in the Brendan Haywood mold. Green is still a question mark, but if he develops into a starter, I'll be pleased. Telfair and Rondo look like backups. Jefferson can be special, but he hasn't improved in two years.

Can we win with this group? I don't think so. They are not worthy of contract extensions. You can't build franchises through low first round picks. If the Celtics want to get serious about the future, they need quality talent. They may have "too much talent," but their talent is not good enough.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

While I'd love to keep all nine players, I think there all good for a team off the bench, realistically I don't think all of them will be good for this team.

Right now, in the eyes of Celtics fans those are "can't miss" picks, in the eyes of fans out side of Celtics Nation they're all marginal rotational players.

Take our fantasy league for example. I love these players so much that I've picked up Ryan Gomes, Kendrick Perkins and Delonte West on the same team. On any given night one or two of those three can explode to make you wet your pants, but that's exactly the problem. It's only on _given_ nights. 

As much as I love them, they're not the types of players that will give you great numbers night in, night out, you can't count on them like you can count on Pierce, and that's what the Celtics need right now the most.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

To be fair, where they were picked aren't exactly conducive to being superstars. You can't expect that.

As for Perk being a Brendan Haywood type - good thing DA gave him $16 mill and not the ridiculous contract you all were bellering for.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

Just for the record I would like to state that Delonte is the best PG on the roster right now...


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

DWest Superstar said:


> Just for the record I would like to state that Delonte is the _third_ best PG on the roster right now...


I fixed that for you.

I'm not hating on Delonte. He'll be a terrific sixth man in the future. He's not a point guard and is not better at the one than Rondo or Telfair.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

I almost forgot.



> Is this the right group of young talent?


No.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

I am starting to wonder if Pierce is the right guy to lead a young team. No one would argue that Pierce is easily our best player. But is he the type of player that puts teams on his back and leads them to wins - both in terms of numbers and leadership? As good as Pierce is I am not so sure. He might be better off on a team as a #2 guy. The time has come for the Celtics to strongly look into a PP trade.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> I am starting to wonder if Pierce is the right guy to lead a young team. No one would argue that Pierce is easily our best player. But is he the type of player that puts teams on his back and leads them to wins - both in terms of numbers and leadership? As good as Pierce is I am not so sure. He might be better off on a team as a #2 guy. The time has come for the Celtics to strongly look into a PP trade.


That would definitely solve our problems.

It worked so well four years ago with the Walker trade...


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

It's not even close to the same situation. Among other things - the makeup of the team is completely different (and younger). And I'd say Pierce's trade value is higher than Walkers was.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Causeway said:


> It's not even close to the same situation. Among other things - the makeup of the team is completely different (and younger). And I'd say Pierce's trade value is higher than Walkers was.



knowing danny he would trade pierce for...*thinking of who has the worst knees and contract in the league*...kenyon martin and a future first rounder :curse:


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Well, if the Celtics just continue their losing ways, they will have a good opportunity to really improve next season. Pierce plus a top five pick in the '07 draft is a fairly good core.

Delonte should've been traded when his value was high [early this offseason]. If we could've managed to obtain Anderson Varejao for him, we would be better off, as we would have secured two very good backup big men for cheap. West is going to command a nice contract for an extension and I don't think its worth it. Letting him go for nothing, also, is very unfavourable.

Once again, I have no idea about Jefferson and how'll he respond this year to his poor performance last season. Tony Allen is definitely going, though, either as a throw-in, in jail, or not offered an extension.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

agoo101284 said:


> I fixed that for you.
> 
> I'm not hating on Delonte. He'll be a terrific sixth man in the future. He's not a point guard and is not better at the one than Rondo or Telfair.


OMG, The abilities of Rondo, and Telfair are much mor limited than those of West no one here can tell me that either one could be more sucessful at the position this year as West was last year *true point guard or not* And yes he is better than both of them at the position right now, and it is not even arguable.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

DWest Superstar said:


> And yes he is better than both of them at the position right now, and it is not even arguable.




as much as i have _not_ been impressed with telfair...the statement you just made is VERY arguable due to his play....west is averaging 7-3-3 on 32% shooting and 33% from 3 for the year...telfair is averaging 10-3-2 on 47% shooting and 42% from 3 for the year...its not even arguable who has been the better pg so far...its clearly telfair


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Premier said:


> Can we win with this group? I don't think so. They are not worthy of contract extensions. You can't build franchises through low first round picks. If the Celtics want to get serious about the future, they need quality talent. They may have "too much talent," but their talent is not good enough.


Yes I think we can win with this group. We were better than our record last season - we just gave away too many close ones. I think we'll learn to hold and close leads. But we have some excellent younth to grow with. It's just going to take a little patience as we are very young. Not much you can do about that.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> It's not even close to the same situation. Among other things - the makeup of the team is completely different (and younger). And I'd say Pierce's trade value is higher than Walkers was.


You're right, it's not even close to the same situation. It's much worse.

At least when we traded Antoine we still had Paul Pierce and a few veterans left, now if we trade Pierce we'll some bum with blown knees and another mid to late first round pick to pick up another roll player that would be very nice on a championship type team.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> Yes I think we can win with this group. We were better than our record last season - we just gave away too many close ones. I think we'll learn to hold and close leads. But we have some excellent younth to grow with. It's just going to take a little patience as we are very young. Not much you can do about that.


What can we win with this group? Please don't say a championship as we cannot even win a playoff series when we've had Walker-Pierce-Davis and Payton on this team.


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> as much as i have _not_ been impressed with telfair...the statement you just made is VERY arguable due to his play....west is averaging 7-3-3 on 32% shooting and 33% from 3 for the year...telfair is averaging 10-3-2 on 47% shooting and 42% from 3 for the year...its not even arguable who has been the better pg so far...its clearly telfair


... nice game tonight

Telfair is not the player that West is at all


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> You're right, it's not even close to the same situation. It's much worse.
> 
> At least when we traded Antoine we still had Paul Pierce and a few veterans left, now if we trade Pierce we'll some bum with blown knees and another mid to late first round pick to pick up another roll player that would be very nice on a championship type team.


Who's the "bum with blown knees"? Wally? Our #2 scorer? He in many ways is the emotional leader of this team. He is always playing to win and is great to have around young players. He might nit be flashy or dunk like Ricky Davis - but he is very solid.

We also happen to have great young players. They are just young. Their youth might make them "roll players" on a championship team today. But with time we have more than one guy that will be more then that. Hopefully in Green.

Our situation now is better.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> What can we win with this group? Please don't say a championship as we cannot even win a playoff series when we've had Walker-Pierce-Davis and Payton on this team.


It's more than time to get over the fact that Walker is gone. 

And we can at the minimum win more than what you hope - which is to lose enough for a top 3 pick. We are certainly much better than that. No, as of now we are not a championship team. I do not think Prem was asking if we had a shot to win a banner this year or not - I could be wrong though. We we should be a playoff team though.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

DWest Superstar said:


> ... nice game tonight
> 
> Telfair is not the player that West is at all




and you base this onnnnnnnnn....


great west had a good game tonight woohoo but telfair had every bit as much of a good game...and telfair put in his numbers in the first half when the game was close...west did most of his damage when we were already up by 20


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

none of this really matters cuz marcus banks is better than both of them...if anyone is watching this suns game banks has probably 3 of the top 10 plays on sportscenter tomorrow morning...hes a beast


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## beantown (Sep 2, 2005)

DWest Superstar said:


> OMG, The abilities of Rondo, and Telfair are much mor limited than those of West no one here can tell me that either one could be more sucessful at the position this year as West was last year *true point guard or not* And yes he is better than both of them at the position right now, and it is not even arguable.


Just give it a rest guy. geesh...


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## DWest Superstar (Jun 30, 2005)

> Just give it a rest guy. geesh...


No

Look at what West has done as a starter, in the past and compare that to Telfair. West is easily the better player.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

DWest Superstar said:


> No
> 
> Look at what West has done as a starter, in the past and compare that to Telfair. West is easily the better player.




in the past?!? ok you dwell on whos been the better player* in the past * and we'll tell you whos been the better player this season.....


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> Who's the "bum with blown knees"? Wally? Our #2 scorer? He in many ways is the emotional leader of this team. He is always playing to win and is great to have around young players. He might nit be flashy or dunk like Ricky Davis - but he is very solid.
> 
> We also happen to have great young players. They are just young. Their youth might make them "roll players" on a championship team today. But with time we have more than one guy that will be more then that. Hopefully in Green.
> 
> Our situation now is better.


Have you seen what Danny traded for when the parted with Walker and Davis?

In return we got two immobile players who make 100 million combined.

Please spear me the talk that we have great young players. We have great young projects, but not sure-future all-stars.



Causeway said:


> It's more than time to get over the fact that Walker is gone.
> 
> And we can at the minimum win more than what you hope - which is to lose enough for a top 3 pick. We are certainly much better than that. No, as of now we are not a championship team. I do not think Prem was asking if we had a shot to win a banner this year or not - I could be wrong though. We we should be a playoff team though.


Who cares about Walker? This team couldn't win a playoff series when it had three 20 PPG scorers and you think we're better now?

Yes, let's go and enjoy another 30-win season, pick up another guy between the 14th and 20th pick and let's see where that will get us. The past three years have been great!

And I'm pretty sure Prem was asking if this is the right group of players towards winning a championship, what else was he implying "Is this the right group of players to make the 8th seed?"


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> Have you seen what Danny traded for when the parted with Walker and Davis?
> 
> In return we got two immobile players who make 100 million combined.
> 
> Please spear me the talk that we have great young players. We have great young projects, but not sure-future all-stars.


Raef turned out the be mostly a bust. But for easily the 100th time - that trade was for more than Raef. And I would hardly call Wally "immobile". Far from it.
Telfair, Perks, Rondo, Jefferson, West and Gomes are easily better than projects.




aquaitious said:


> Who cares about Walker? This team couldn't win a playoff series when it had three 20 PPG scorers and you think we're better now?


You brought up Walker so I guess it's you that cares. And I thought that team got to the ECF no? They must have won a playoff series. I said that our situation now is better. There is a difference. And Yes, I believe we are better off now.




aquaitious said:


> Yes, let's go and enjoy another 30-win season, pick up another guy between the 14th and 20th pick and let's see where that will get us. The past three years have been great!


The past three years have been tough. Hell the past 20 have been tough. But when Danny took over he saw two stars in Pierce and Walker and a bunch of aging vets (many of whom are now home collecting their NBA pensions). That spells re0build. Sorry. But we will win more than 30 games this season. The signs are there. We are learning to close games out. We did not do that last season.



aquaitious said:


> And I'm pretty sure Prem was asking if this is the right group of players towards winning a championship, what else was he implying "Is this the right group of players to make the 8th seed?"


You said "What can we win with this group? Please don't say a championship". That's different than saying is "this is the right group of players towards winning a championship". No, we will not win a banner _this season_. Yes, we have some great pieces in place to build toards that goal.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> Raef turned out the be mostly a bust. But for easily the 100th time - that trade was for more than Raef. And I would hardly call Wally "immobile". Far from it.
> Telfair, Perks, Rondo, Jefferson, West and Gomes are easily better than projects.


Sorry, but a three inch vertical and a running slower than Shaq and his 400 pounds, sure spell's "immobile."

All six of them are bench players. Not one looks like a starter right now, and we have three of them starting.



Causeway said:


> You brought up Walker so I guess it's you that cares. And I thought that team got to the ECF no? They must have won a playoff series. I said that our situation now is better. There is a difference. And Yes, I believe we are better off now.


I did not bring up Walker, I brought up the team that we had two years ago in which Walker and Davis played along side Pierce and they couldn't win a playoff series.

Is our situation better now? No doubt!
Is this _team_ better right now? Absolutely not.



Causeway said:


> The past three years have been tough. Hell the past 20 have been tough. But when Danny took over he saw two stars in Pierce and Walker and a bunch of aging vets (many of whom are now home collecting their NBA pensions). That spells re0build. Sorry. But we will win more than 30 games this season. The signs are there. We are learning to close games out. We did not do that last season.


Those aging vets have done more that year than any group of players we've had the last three years combined.

This group is just average, they won't even make the playoffs.



Causeway said:


> You said "What can we win with this group? Please don't say a championship". That's different than saying is "this is the right group of players towards winning a championship". No, we will not win a banner _this season_. Yes, we have some great pieces in place to build toards that goal.


As I've said, we have good roll players and I love them, but fact is none of them will be a star player in this league, which is what we do need and we won't get them by winning 30 games and missing out on the lottery nor the fact that we don't have any money to spend till 2039.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> Sorry, but a three inch vertical and a running slower than Shaq and his 400 pounds, sure spell's "immobile."


Since when does a verticle define everything? K. Brown could jump out of the gym - big deal. Larry Bird had about a two inch verticle. No one really cares. It's about knowing how to play and using what you've got. Wally is averaging over 20 per game with about 4 'bounds and 2.5 assists. But yeah it sucks that he has limited verticle - let's focus on that.



> All six of them are bench players. Not one looks like a starter right now, and we have three of them starting.


Gomes is just a bench player? Nice bench. Telfair could start for many teams. Perks is a beast in limited minutes. He'll fix the foul issues. Rondo is a 20 yr old rookie. Let's give him a little time before saying he's just a bench player. And by the way - teams need roll players as well.




> Is our situation better now? No doubt!


agree on that.




> Those aging vets have done more that year than any group of players we've had the last three years combined.


And then then next year they hit Florida for the most part and their retirement homes. The past is the past.



> This group is just average, they won't even make the playoffs.


They will make the playoffs. Sorry.





> As I've said, we have good roll players and I love them, but fact is none of them will be a star player in this league,


You're wrong on this but whatever.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

...


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Honestly, aqua, I need to know what you want out of Wally Szczerbiak. Because he's giving this team 22/4/3 on great percentages. He's playing the best basketball of his career (you could argue he was better on the Pups last year, but that's moot). He's put Ricky Davis' production to shame this year. I can _guarantee_ that if Davis was dropping 22/4/3 here, win or lose, you lot would be ecstatic. That's a _fact._


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> Since when does a verticle define everything? K. Brown could jump out of the gym - big deal. Larry Bird had about a two inch verticle. No one really cares. It's about knowing how to play and using what you've got. Wally is averaging over 20 per game with about 4 'bounds and 2.5 assists. But yeah it sucks that he has limited verticle - let's focus on that.


Have you ignored my post? I've cited more things to state why the guy is immobile. The second he gets the ball in half court I have to pray that he gives it up so we can get a fast break going, but he doesn't and tries dribling it as if he could handle the ball.

There's nothing to argue about the stats, he's doing very but a) he should be a spot up shooter, becase that's where he's best at and b) Wally Szczerbiak will not bring us a chamionship with this team.



Causeway said:


> Gomes is just a bench player? Nice bench. Telfair could start for many teams. Perks is a beast in limited minutes. He'll fix the foul issues. Rondo is a 20 yr old rookie. Let's give him a little time before saying he's just a bench player. And by the way - teams need roll players as well.


I was a bit harsh on Gomes, he makes a good starter in the league. Every other guy on the other hand is a decent bench player. Telfair couldn't start on Portland last year. I've also stated in another theard that I think Rondo can be a decent starting PG in the league, either way he'll also be a roll player. And yes roll players are great to have, except no one in the past 20 years has won the league with roll players with the exception of the Pistons...once.

The team needs much more than just roll players to suceed.



P-Dub34 said:


> Honestly, aqua, I need to know what you want out of Wally Szczerbiak. Because he's giving this team 22/4/3 on great percentages. He's playing the best basketball of his career (you could argue he was better on the Pups last year, but that's moot). He's put Ricky Davis' production to shame this year. I can guarantee that if Davis was dropping 22/4/3 here, win or lose, you lot would be ecstatic. That's a fact.


Wally's playing great, except he doesn't always within the system. I've stated it above, I don't think Wally's that great of a addition to this team, because with or without him we won't be winning anything. This is year four of a three year plan and all I've seen is 30 win season with two of our #2 players traded for two other's with blown out knees.

If Davis was still here and averaging the same numbers I'd be much happier, of course, since he makes what? 1/2-1/3 less of what Wally makes? Also when all is said and done Davis will play in 20% more games than Wally will this year.

We have two options: Trade everything we can to get another good player while keeping our core of Pierce, Wally, and Gomes and try to win now before Wally and Pierce are grandfathers and we start rebuilding again, or tank now and come back next year with a sure-pick out of the draft and have a scary team.

Either or I'm fine with, staying put with a 30 win team does not make me happy.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Wally's playing great, except he doesn't always within the system.


A fair criticism. I'm honestly shocked you just said he's playing great. I have to give you props for not being a total "hater."



> I've stated it above, I don't think Wally's that great of a addition to this team, because with or without him we won't be winning anything.


With or without Pierce we aren't winning anything. Why don't we jettison him outta here?



> This is year four of a three year plan and all I've seen is 30 win season with two of our #2 players traded for two other's with blown out knees.


I'm not delving into the Raef trade because that's not the matter at hand. However, unlike Raef, Wally's producing at the best clip of his career with said knee problems.



> If Davis was still here and averaging the same numbers I'd be much happier, of course, since he makes what? 1/2-1/3 less of what Wally makes?


Right, but he isn't here and he certainly isn't producing like Wally is. If he were, we can't forget that he'd be wanting a Szczerbiak-an contract once his bargain deal expires that we wouldn't sign him to anyways, and would have lost him for nothing.



> Also when all is said and done Davis will play in 20% more games than Wally will this year.


No, I don't think so. It's an easy prediction to make considering his history, but I think he'll play in 70+ games.



> We have two options: Trade everything we can to get another good player while keeping our core of Pierce, Wally, and Gomes and try to win now before Wally and Pierce are grandfathers and we start rebuilding again, or tank now and come back next year with a sure-pick out of the draft and have a scary team.


Unfortunately, I can't see the team really going any direction. They aren't tanking, and no blockbuster trades will be made. 



> Either or I'm fine with, staying put with a 30 win team does not make me happy.


I don't think any of us are happy with what's happening right now, but bagging relentlessly on the team's second best player who has exceeded expectations here and totally reformed his attitude for the better and continually garners praise from teammates seems sort of juvenile to me.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

P-Dub34 said:


> With or without Pierce we aren't winning anything. Why don't we jettison him outta here?


Pierce + Topic pick, surrounded by the likes of Gomes, Perkins, West, Wally, Telfair and Rondo makes this team a threat.



P-Dub34 said:


> I'm not delving into the Raef trade because that's not the matter at hand. However, unlike Raef, Wally's producing at the best clip of his career with said knee problems.


Raef's had his own share of great games, weeks and a month or two. Fact was, he was still crippling us financially.



P-Dub34 said:


> Right, but he isn't here and he certainly isn't producing like Wally is. If he were, we can't forget that he'd be wanting a Szczerbiak-an contract once his bargain deal expires that we wouldn't sign him to anyways, and would have lost him for nothing.


It's much easier to trade Ricky Davis, a very good player with a great contract, than it is to trade Szczerbiak, a very good player with an awful contract.



P-Dub34 said:


> No, I don't think so. It's an easy prediction to make considering his history, but I think he'll play in 70+ games.


~70 games would equal around 15%...so I was off by a bit.



P-Dub34 said:


> Unfortunately, I can't see the team really going any direction. They aren't tanking, and no blockbuster trades will be made.


Oh well, I guess I'll be here pissing about them for years then. 



P-Dub34 said:


> I don't think any of us are happy with what's happening right now, but bagging relentlessly on the team's second best player who has exceeded expectations here and totally reformed his attitude for the better and continually garners praise from teammates seems sort of juvenile to me.


Someone has to be the scrapgoat. It was Walker his whole career, then it was Davis, now it's Wally's turn. The fact that he's a 1-dimensional player and making 12 million does not make it any easier on him.

Also, Causeway sure seems happy about this whole team. Sorry, I want better after four years of semi-rebuilding.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

Aqua show me where I said I am "happy about this whole team". You can be a fan of this team and not constantly find things to whine and complain about, without being "happy about this whole team".


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Causeway said:


> Aqua show me where I said I am "happy about this whole team". You can be a fan of this team and not constantly find things to whine and complain about, without being "happy about this whole team".


I'm a fan of this team, and so is everyone on here, but we also "point out" the things that are wrong with it. And there are a number of things that are wrong with the team apart from the coach.

Am I happy about the 3-game win streak? Absolutely, I think it's great for the team, but where will it take us? How does the long-term future look like? As it is, I don't see it being a championship caliber team, and that's what all 30 teams are aiming for.

It's perfectly fine to whine about a team and still be a fan.


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## Causeway (May 18, 2005)

aquaitious said:


> I'm a fan of this team, and so is everyone on here, but we also "point out" the things that are wrong with it. And there are a number of things that are wrong with the team apart from the coach.
> 
> Am I happy about the 3-game win streak? Absolutely, I think it's great for the team, but where will it take us? How does the long-term future look like? As it is, I don't see it being a championship caliber team, and that's what all 30 teams are aiming for.
> 
> It's perfectly fine to whine about a team and still be a fan.


I also said nothing about you being or not being a fan. I was defending me being a fan, but that does not mean I am as you said I was - "happy about this whole team".


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