# Game 2: Wolves (0-1) @ Knicks (0-1)



## JuX

@









*November 4, 2007
5:00 PM CDT
Madison Square Garden
New York City, New York
*

*MIN: (0-1), Home (0-1)
NYK: (0-1), Road (0-1)*

*Starting Lineups*

*Minnesota Timberwolves*




































Gomes F, Jefferson F, Ratliff C, McCants G, Telfair G

*New York Knicks*




































Randolph F, Richardson F, Curry C, Crawford G, Marbury G

*Minnesota*
*Points Per Game*
McCants 23.0
Jefferson 16.0
Ratliff 14.0

*Rebounds Per Game*
Jefferson 13.0
Ratliff 6.0
3 tied at 4.0

*Assists Per Game*
Telfair 5.0
Gomes 4.0
Buckner 4.0

*New York*
*Points Per Game*
Crawford 25.0
Randolph 21.0
Robinson 19.0

*Rebounds Per Game*
Randolph 14.0
Lee 8.0
Curry 7.0

*Assists Per Game*
Crawford 6.0
Marbury 5.0
Randolph 3.0​
*Next Wolves Game:* Nov 6th vs Orlando, 7:00 PM CDT


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## luther

The Marbury / Telfair matchup might be interesting, a pair of cousins with checkered records of success going at one another in their hometown. I'm hopeful that Telfair won't get caught up in that stuff and runs the team as well as he did in game one.

When the starters are in, I'm excited by our frontcourt's prospects against the Randolph/Curry pairing. Should be fun.


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## knicksfan

I keep telling you guys Telfair is a godsend to your organization. If you guys don't screw him over like Boston and Portland did, he will be an amazing floor general. I won't be watching this game tonight as just a Knicks fan, but also as an observer of one of my favorite players in the league. I'm very interested in seeing whether Minnesota's coach (sorry that I don't know who it is)lets Sebastian run the offense like he knows how to do, or tries to manipulate (and limit) him as what happened in Portland and Boston.


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## luther

The coach is Randy Wittman, former Indiana Hoosier, longtime NBA player, longtime NBA assistant and previous NBA head coach. He wants his point guards to run the team, but he is going to "restrict" in that he doesn't want a PG who is looking for his own shot until he's ensured that others don't have them. And from what I've seen of Telfair in the NBA, that has been his issue: shooting more than he should, and missing the shots (compounding the problem). That said, I like what he did in game one and believe he's talented. So we'll see.


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## luther

OK, 30 minutes to go till tip-off. C'mon, clock. Tick faster.


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## JuX

Sebastian Telfair have a lot to prove why he's worthy to this team. I think he had his head screwed on straight after what happened in PDX and Boston. He is realizing that he's Foye's backup but with Foye's out, he gotta go and play big.


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## luther

I wonder when I'm going to get used to looking at this Wolves starting lineup. Probably not until Foye comes back and it changes on me again!


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## JuX

Is this game already started or not?


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## Ruff Draft

Go Wolves!

Sorry I stopped making a game thread guys. I was introduced to Jagerbombs last night. I pass the game threads onto Jux


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## JuX

Ruff Draft said:


> Go Wolves!
> 
> Sorry I stopped making a game thread guys. I was introduced to Jagerbombs last night. I pass the game threads onto Jux


Nah, it's all cool, man.


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## luther

JuX said:


> Is this game already started or not?


Yeah, finally.


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## JuX

luther said:


> Yeah, finally.


Damn, just used to having the games started at 10 after 7.


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## luther

Telfair with three shots already, and I feel like the past two were unnecessary. Hopefully that isn't what we're looking at all night.


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## luther

Love the way Jefferson and Ratliff play on defense.


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## JuX

Jefferson 5 rebounds now


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## luther

A quick 6 and 5 for Jefferson.


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## luther

8 and 5.


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## JuX

McCants from downtown. 15-7, good guys.


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## JuX

Big Al's already in a double digit points.


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## luther

Wow, quick 10 points on 5-5 shooting for Al. Very good.

One thing I'm not liking, though, is if the initial play breaks down, the Wolves off the ball are doing a lot of standing around. A few plays ago you end up with Gomes on an iso on the wing, which is pretty much never a good option when he has a SF on him.


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## luther

Scoring on this team in the post is remarkably easy. It ought to get tougher with someone (Lee) willing to work at that end, but even so...we may as well go at them till they stop it. Jefferson and Smith are having a field day.


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## JuX

luther said:


> Scoring on this team in the post is remarkably easy. It ought to get tougher with someone (Lee) willing to work at that end, but even so...we may as well go at them till they stop it. Jefferson and Smith are having a field day.


Most definitely.

What's up with the Knicks' shooting 3 pointers too much? Well, it should be my least concern.


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## luther

Well, when you assemble a team full of me-first talents with questionable basketball IQs, I guess you can't expect smart shots. I mean, Steph, Crawford, Robinson, Q...have at it, guys. Chuck 'em all you want. I'll take my chances that they alienate their post scorers, who will lose interest. And that leads to a blowout.


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## luther

That begs the question: how good would the knicks be if their PG was a smart, strong-personality leader? Imagine Steve Nash or Jason Kidd on that team setting a good example, finding guys when they're open, inspiring them to work to get open and make the extra pass, etc.


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## luther

Uh-oh, Walker is in. Speaking of chucking unnecessary 3s...


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## luther

I don't like this all-bench lineup of Jaric, Buckner, Brewer, Smith and Walker. No true, go-to scorer (with Smith the closest thing to one), no true PG, a guy in Brewer who can't even carry his own share of the offensive load yet...just doesn't feel right. I think we're at a point when we need either McCants or Jefferson on the floor pretty much at all times, at least till Foye returns.


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## JuX

luther said:


> I don't like this all-bench lineup of Jaric, Buckner, Brewer, Smith and Walker. No true, go-to scorer (with Smith the closest thing to one), no true PG, a guy in Brewer who can't even carry his own share of the offensive load yet...just doesn't feel right. I think we're at a point when we need either McCants or Jefferson on the floor pretty much at all times, at least till Foye returns.


Look at what they have done so far. Not so good idea. Knicks is now a point behind us. Brewer still is having some rookie jitters or whatnot.


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## luther

I think Brewer is just farther away than some people were thinking. He's not strong enough and his shot and ball-handling aren't where they'll need to be. His athleticism, defensive efforts, etc., will ensure he keeps getting time (that and that he's a high 1st rounder...), but he's not going to come on and set the world on fire yet.


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## luther

Despite that turnover (end-to-end, Theo?), I just love Theo Ratliff so far. Absolutely love the way he plays. Pity he almost certainly won't be here next year, at least unless he's willing to sign for WAY, WAY less.


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## JuX

I'm not too high on Brewer, either. I think he is being overlooked by those people because he was the most important player in the NCAA Final Four. That doesn't matter because the NBA is at a completely different level than college basketball.


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## luther

I believe Brewer was a nice pick and will be fine. But he needs time. Frankly, I think Green ought to be on the floor instead of him with that group. At least he's a proven NBA scorer.


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## JuX

That was not what I mean. I mean, I'm fine with Brewer, but he have a lot to learn in the process as a NBA player. I feel that he was picked earlier than I thought because people's expectations were high because of his achievement as a college basketball player during the Final four championship. I don't understand why Green hasn't seen the floor this season yet.


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## Mateo

McHale is the kind of guy who either likes a player or doesn't. And that opinion never changes. We were told back when "the trade" happened that McHale wasn't a fan of Green... and so we didn't pick up Green's option and Green's not playing. I think the team's already decided that he's not going to be here, so they aren't even giving him a chance. Meanwhile McHale liked McCants and so McCants has continued to player, despite stinking 4/5th of the time he's out there. Same for the rest of the guys.


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## luther

You're right about that: winning teams in March always get guys into the league with higher picks than they otherwise would have gotten. I think back to '96 when Mississippi St. surprised people and all of a sudden, Dontae Jones was a first-rounder. The same year, John Wallace of Syracuse was similarly over-valued. Or Duke, with guys like Trajan Langdon and Will Avery joining the more obvious Elton Brand as first-rounders. (Corey Maggette, too, but he was an odd situation, someone who didn't really produce that much for that team, but was drafted on pure athleticism and potential.)


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## JuX

Look at that, Bassy stealing the ball away from his cousin.


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## Mateo

nice play by gomes to end the half. glad to see green get at least a little burn.


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## Mateo

And look who's the Wolves leading scorer, the young player who gets no love.


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## luther

OK, trailing 54-50 at the half isn't so bad, especially considering how terribly most of our bench played (again). I really don't like that wholesale substitution thing Wittman did, and hope he drops it. While he's undoubtedly trying to find combinations who play well together, you just can't abandon offense to do that.

Nice to see a few seconds of Gerald Green there at the end. Finally. Now I hope he gets about 10 minutes in the second half to show what he'll be able to contribute.


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## luther

Mateo said:


> And look who's the Wolves leading scorer, the young player who gets no love.


Smith gets plenty of love. He just isn't the kind of guy who can do it alone, which is my complaint with that earlier lineup that had him as the only scorer.


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## sheefo13

I must say... The team has overcome my expectations... The bench is horrid but I think there might be a chance we aren't last in our division once Foye is back... I hope we are last, but we just have so many competitive young guys on this team right now that anything is possible.. Oh and I love Theo.


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## socco

Mateo said:


> McHale is the kind of guy who either likes a player or doesn't. And that opinion never changes. We were told back when "the trade" happened that McHale wasn't a fan of Green... and so we didn't pick up Green's option and Green's not playing. I think the team's already decided that he's not going to be here, so they aren't even giving him a chance. Meanwhile McHale liked McCants and so McCants has continued to player, despite stinking 4/5th of the time he's out there. Same for the rest of the guys.


That's a pretty accurate assessment. That's the way McHale works. And it's the same with trades and signings. It's no coincidence how many Bill Duffy clients the Wolves have signed over the years, or the multiple trades with the Celtics. He only deals with people he's familiar with.


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## luther

Gotta love Theo--he's the first center of this type we've ever had with the Wolves: agile, athletic, defensive-minded, shot-blocking...just great energy. If he stays healthy and keeps up this kind of play all year, I'll be ecstatic.


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## JuX

socco said:


> That's a pretty accurate assessment. That's the way McHale works. And it's the same with trades and signings. It's no coincidence how many Bill Duffy clients the Wolves have signed over the years, or the multiple trades with the Celtics. He only deals with people he's familiar with.


That's pretty narrow-minded.


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## luther

Mateo said:


> McHale is the kind of guy who either likes a player or doesn't. And that opinion never changes. We were told back when "the trade" happened that McHale wasn't a fan of Green... and so we didn't pick up Green's option and Green's not playing. I think the team's already decided that he's not going to be here, so they aren't even giving him a chance.


While on the surface that seems plausible, it's important to remember how little we know as fans sometimes--even dedicated fans. For example, Handelman and Petersen doing the TV commentating now just discussed how slow Green has been at picking up the offensive and defensive concepts, and how Brewer in particular has just out-performed him in practice. And if that's true, then that's why he's not playing. We can't know for sure unless we get all-access passes to practices, meetings, etc. But it is true that pure talent isn't enough.


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## Mateo

throw it down big man, throw it down!


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## JuX

All right, we're back into this game!


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## Mateo

I think we have the "overlooked" thing going for us. Teams think they can just roll us over but we play with heart.


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## JuX

Big Al with another double-double.


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## Mateo

Al has to back off the jumpers.


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## JuX

Bassy has to continue dishing out assists.


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## Mateo

Smith is just a baller.


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## luther

We'll see what happens when Bassy comes back out. That has been when things get rough so far this short season.


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## Mateo

i can tell from this game that what we need in the draft is a stud wing player.


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## luther

Theoretically, that stud wing player would come from McCants, Brewer or Green.


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## Mateo

luther said:


> Theoretically, that stud wing player would come from McCants, Brewer or Green.


:rofl: good one bro, good one.

ohh, and david lee is the knick's best player by far.


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## luther

Mateo said:


> :rofl: good one bro, good one.
> 
> ohh, and david lee is the knick's best player by far.


On the former, I'm just saying, that's why they're here. I'm not saying it's true. But especially with Brewer, you don't spend that pick on a guy unless he's going to be that stud wing. And he might be--it's pretty tough to judge him fairly all of 1.77 games into his pro career. But it's pretty obvious what he has to work on.

On the latter, that is true. Without question.


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## luther

GREAT BLOCK by Brewer.


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## Mateo

^^^^ actually i just hope Brewer can be a Tayshaun Prince or Josh Childress level player.


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## Mateo

this team is just refusing to play jefferson at center for some reason.


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## luther

Mateo said:


> ^^^^ actually i just hope Brewer can be a Tayshaun Prince or Josh Childress level player.


There's really no "just" about those guys. They're both really good--especially Prince. If by "stud" you mean better than them, well, then you mean true All-Star. And those guys aren't quite so easy to come by. There are only about 10 in the league, so...


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## Mateo

refs are handing the Knicks the game. Minnesota: 28 PFs. New York: 12 PFs.


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## Mateo

put Smith back in the game.


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## luther

Losing McCants to fouls late hurts: that's our one creative perimeter/wing scorer.


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## luther

This team needs to play some defense, get some stops.


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## luther

Three of the past four possessions the Knicks were able to get the ball to Curry right under the basket, basically in perfect position. That's troublesome.


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## Mateo

we're still in this.....


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## luther

Going to Jefferson those past few possessions helped, and I really liked that Smith-to-Gomes pass.


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## luther

OK, that was nerve-wracking, especially Curry getting the rebound underneath (since when does he try to rebound?). We need a 3 just to stay in it. Not exactly our strong suit.


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## Mateo

ahhahahaha, what the hell Whittman, Walker?


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## socco

Mateo said:


> ahhahahaha, what the hell Whittman, Walker?


:nonono:


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## JuX

Once again this team has proven to us they can't play entire 48 minutes. It's a young team, they'll learn.

Nice going, Wittman.


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## Avalanche

still havnt had a chance to watch this.. ill check it out in a sec, even if i dont want to by the sounds of it lol


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## Avalanche

Ok so just finished up with it, didnt look as bad as i expected.

Telfair is unbelievably quick... can beat anybody up the floor even with the ball in his hands, looked very precise with everything he was doing, needs to work on his shooting but he should be playing like a pass first player anyway... i still see great things for him and hopefully he is set in the rotation for the season.

Mccants looks like a star... at times, but he has the drive of a superstar, the attitude is there, took a 3 and it bobbled around the rim before dropping and he was angry at himself "****"! lol, looks good on defense aswell i think this could well be his break out year.

Smith and Gomes both look very solid, very rarely make mistakes... and both can score very quickly in bunches, which is more rare for big men.

Jefferson is fantastic when he has a man 1 on 1, when he gets doubled he tends to dissapear for a few minutes at a time... he also looks very uncomfortable when he should be putting the ball on the floor to attack the rim... great, strong rebounder though.

Ratliff is a huge surprise and actually fits into this team very well.

Jaric drives me insane... i know the guy has talent but he slows down the entire offense, even when matched up against nate (11 inch advantage) he refuses to go to the hole, frustrates me no end... we need to package him with gerald and try to get something of use in return.

Brewer got in foul trouble, hard to see anything from this one, nice big block though

Buckner/Walker.... meh

all in all we actually looked pretty good, Curry/Crawford/Marbury were almost scoring at will though we need to work on our D. Foye would have helped so much and especially in close games he will be the go to guy in the 4th.

0-2 , oh well.. Boston is keeping avalanche at .500 for the season so far lol


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## Avalanche

Oh and Walt Frazier is THE coolest announcer in the league... the tone in his voice sounds like he should just be a colour commentator but everything he says is spot on and really informative, ill probably watch a few more knicks games just for that


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## Avalanche

oh and one more thing.... seriously...

Antoine in for the game tying shot???

after playing 5 minutes and not being on since the second quarter???

Seriously its the second game and for me, thats a visible tank move and a horrible coaching decision


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## moss_is_1

I hate that Green isn't playing. We are a rebuidling team so quit playing Buckner and Walker, they suck and are old. Get Richard and Green in there.


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## luther

moss_is_1 said:


> I hate that Green isn't playing. We are a rebuidling team so quit playing Buckner and Walker, they suck and are old. Get Richard and Green in there.


Well, they don't suck, and neither is really _old_. I agree that Walker's game doesn't fit with rebuilding plans, but Buckner actually does. Frankly, a team full of just-out-of-college players would be a horrible disaster. You need a few guys with experience.

As far as I'm concerned, Richard is entirely unnecessary. There are a dozen guys per year who do what he does. Green, yeah, I'd like to see in the lineup, but word is he doesn't yet know the offense or defense. And if he's not understanding, I agree: bench him. I'll take a smart player (a la Craig Smith, Corey Brewer) over a dumb athlete (Green?).


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## Avalanche

While Green is young and talented, there are so many young guys on this team that i would put on the court before him

Foye/Telfair/Mccants/Brewer/Gomes/Smith/Jefferson all should be getting solid rotation minutes, thats 7 guys in their early 20's.... we need SOME vets out there like theo and buckner making up the minutes.

I think trying to package Green with Jaric would be the best bet


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## socco

Avalanche said:


> I think trying to package Green with Jaric would be the best bet


It's clear that Green isn't a part of our future plans, so a move like that would make a lot of sense.


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## moss_is_1

I agree with you guys that we need vets out their, BUT with a rotation like.
Pg-Telfair, Jaric
Sg-McCants, Buckner,Green
Sf-Gomes, Brewer,Green
Pf-Jefferson, Walker
C-Ratliff,Richard

There could be times where our 2nd unit comes in and it could be jaric, buckner, green, brewer, and jefferson or something. I know Green doesn't know the sets, but he has too much potential to just rot right now.


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