# Riley!



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

im sure u all have heard what riley has said... so allow me to analize this...

situation a) his talk is nonsense

then he is creating more turmoil, al la hurting his team

situation b) his talk is correct

in this case it is more complex.... however he mentioned this has gone on a long time....his presence hurts his team, and he has failed to mention this for how long? a long time by how he talks about it. he should have done one of two things

i)Quit
problem solved

ii)BRING THE PROBLEM TO ATTENTION WHEN IT FIRST OCCURS
stop the problem when it occurs, not 2 years later. and y would refs dislike u? this is not a little problem, this is a big problem, if u are correct, and ur presence on a team hurts ur team, then say something, ur silence makes ur team worse!!!! how can u not realize this? 

so in conclusion, no matter what happens, riley has hurt his team once again.


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

you must know nothin about basketball to say Riley has hurt the Heat since he's came here---look before Riles and then after---he's done nothing but good things


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

caron, what has he done? Yes he is good with good players. so is just about every other coach. however what has he done in the opposite situation. look at carlise(sp), he was given a bad team and made it a great team. same with silas, and the cavs coach makes his team a lot better too, yes the record is bad, but he makes the team better. and hubie is good too, riley is akin to i.thomas and g.karl, both players hurt their team. pacers are good cuz they have good players, thomas gets acolades much like riley, however both are not good coaches, just have good players.


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

look at the heat before riles.........what did miami do? anything? 
but riley is a failure....hmmmmmmmmmm


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

look at the heat now...using ur logic...(and even with zo they wouldnt be competitors, so dont use that)


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

with Zo we are 3-6th best in the east...i dont doubt that


----------



## Doggpound (Nov 1, 2002)

Riley the GM has hurt Riley the coach. It's as simple as that.


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

then give the GM job to Mickey Arison and we'd have 4-5 lottery picks by now....someone please realize that Riley took the Heat to where Ron Rothstein and the other coaches never did! Obviously he is a success! We were an eastern finalist..losing to a great bulls team..what else could you want besides a ring?


----------



## Doggpound (Nov 1, 2002)

What would I want? To not choke against the Knicks so many times. 

I'm not complaining, I love Riley the coach, but his player moves and signings have been questionable. I really have only liked two; trading for Zo, and signing Tim Hardaway. The Caron pick was impossible to screw up. Signing PJ was a good move also, but getting rid of him was not.


----------



## BCH (Jun 25, 2002)

I can't imagince the Heat with any other coach. The coach and franchise seem perfect for each other.


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

look at this link...it says exactly what ive been saying....


http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/articles/20021219/446370.html


And so what Riley did, first in New York and then in Miami, was overpay the meager talent on hand and fill out his roster with whatever bruisers, hulks, bouncers and punks he could find on the cheap. Then he told all of them, over and over, that every opposing player who drives the lane threatens their manhood and messes with their chances of putting food on the family table. 



and i thought he only ruined his team... i guess he ruined the leauge too...


----------



## Doggpound (Nov 1, 2002)

Riley HAS dug himself into this one.

But this comment by McMillan???

He fingered Riley, for "telling his crew to be physical and aggressive in their hard fouls."

He sounds pretty stupid based on that quote.

I have no problem with hard fouls at all. Sending a message with a hard foul has been encouraged for as long as I remember. You have to treat the paint like you own it, like it's your house. And if anyone comes in, they need to get reminded that it's yours.


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

riley's only mistake has been trading away PJ Mash and don't forget Kurt Thomas.......he has made mistakes...but he turned the heat into a contender


----------



## FatDaddy (Nov 13, 2002)

why there is no fine for refs?


----------



## Joker (Aug 7, 2002)

and what about the ricky davis trade?
how good was gatlin?


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

ricky davis is a locker room cancer....look at him in cleveland...he can ball, but he's no good in the locker room and the only D he knows is the one in his name...both of those mean Riley won't give him a chance (or a very little chance)

Riles has helped Miami by developing young unknowns into great players in Miami
--Ike Austin 
--Mike James
--Malik Allen
--Eddie House
--Voshon Lenard
--Ricky Davis


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

YOU SAID:
ricky davis is a locker room cancer....look at him in cleveland...he can ball, but he's no good in the locker room and the only D he knows is the one in his name...both of those mean Riley won't give him a chance (or a very little chance)

I SAY:
until a good coach, what ive been trying to prove all along talks to him. He USED to be a locker room cancer, till he met with the cav's coach, was set straight and went out and has a total of 3 40 pt games so far. Thats a player you want, and D can be learned, and he will learn it, its the same arguement ppl have against V. Carter, and a lesser carter is something i would want on a team.



YOU SAID:
Riles has helped Miami by developing young unknowns into great players in Miami
--Ike Austin....HAHAHA IKE...AUSTIN, DONT USE HIM TO SHOW RILEY'S GREATNESS.
--Mike James...PREFORMER, BUT NOTHING MORE THAN A STEADY BACKUP.
--Malik Allen...I LIKE THIS GUY, BUT IT WAS HIS WORK ETHIC, NOT RILEY THAT MADE HIM WHAT HE IS TODAY.
--Eddie House...HAS PROVEN NOTHING BETTER THAN A 6TH MAN WHO HAS A BIPOLAR GAME.
--Voshon Lenard...DID RILEY HELP HIM? HE WAS ALWAYS UNDERRATED AND GOOD, IT WASNT RILEY WHO MAGICALLY MADE HIM THIS WAY.
--Ricky Davis...OK HERE IS WHERE MY TROUBLE BEGINS. IN YOUR ABOVE STATEMENT YOU SAY THAT RICKY IS NOT GOOD, HE AND RILEY DID NOT GET ALONG. THEN YOU SAY THAT RILEY HELPED HIM, HOW CAN TWO PPL NOT GET ALONG AND HAVE HELPING OCCUR. CHOOSE ONE! EITHER DAVIS BECAME GOOD DUE TO RILEY OR HE AND RILEY DID NOT GET ALONG THUS CREATING THE TRADE. YOU CANT HAVE BOTH, THAT IS A FALLACY OF LOGIC CARON BUTLER!


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

you are wrong...Ricky Davis IS STILL a cancer for the cavs...he has been benched by the cavs and suspended by the cavs b/c of his attitude. He can play- but is a distraction. He is almost like JR Rider..great player, bad attitude

If you dont think Ike Austin was a great player WITH riles, then you havent been a heat fan too long. He lost it when he left Riles


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

after this discipline he has gotten much better, thats what im saying. its AFTER this that hes become a better player, giving 40 pts in 3 diff games. he has changed due to the suspensions and a good coach.

as for ike, ur right, i started following bball not a long long time ago. however, besides ike, if i give u ike, then what about ur other players that u mentioned?


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

who?
Mike James, Malik Allen, Eddie House, Voshon Lenard...all of those guys were wrote off by every other coach in the NBA and Riles found a diamond in the rough. Maybe Riley didnt develop them (i believe you said that before) but he FOUND them. Mike James has turned into one of our top 5 players this season and was playing where 2 yrs ago? no clue. Malik Allen-started for the heat, maybe just b/c zo is out..but he started. where was he? who did he get drafted by? Eddie House was a late 2nd rd pick and COULD be a starting pg someday or atleast a good backup. Can you say that for most 2nd rd picks? i think not...Voshon Lenard came from nowhere to a great player also. Its early to say, but Rasaul Butler could also be one of these players in the next few years.
Riles finds gems late; he is almost like Jimmy Johnson in the draft-he finds players where most coaches dont. And If you think John Lucas is a BETTER coach than Pat Riley then you need to seek medical help.


----------



## Doggpound (Nov 1, 2002)

He also squeezed out a few years no one thought Majerle had left in him. Man, I miss that guy. If the ball was in his hands, he was going to do something positive with it 9 tiimes out of 10.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

Riles also turned Starks/Ma$e/Bowen and Stepania who were ALL garbage,into very solid players!


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

Mike James...do you think james posey is as good as he was playing in denver? now in huston he is deep in the bench. on a bad team, bad players look better. james benifits due to the fact he has no one around him. M. Allen is a guy that every coach wants, a hardworker, a good role player. house is thus far looking like a second round player, and although he seemed good to begin with, he is like earl boykins (sp?) ... undersized and skilled. look at g.state...arenas, boykins...all good second round players, however i wouldnt trust those people at all! riley is terrible at trading...look at them...and if you followed the cavs, and i do...after the incident, r.davis has been a standout player. I think you know the other trades and they have already been posted. and coaching wize, at least lucas doesnt create problems with refs, he is a good coach, what cuz he has a bad team does that make him a bad coach? the two things are seperate from one another. lucas is a good coach, he did what riley couldnt do, he turned r.davis into a better player. and he devlops talent...if c.butler were on the cavs he would be so much better! lucas may not have all the awards riley has, but he is the better coach caronbutler.


----------



## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Doggpound</b>!
> What would I want? To not choke against the Knicks so many times.
> 
> I'm not complaining, I love Riley the coach, but his player moves and signings have been questionable. I really have only liked two; trading for Zo, and signing Tim Hardaway. The Caron pick was impossible to screw up. <b>Signing PJ was a good move also, but getting rid of him was not. </b>


I happen to agree with you, Riley the GM has hurt Riley the coach and he has to give up one of his jobs, preferably the gm hat he is wearing.


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

wow--John Lucas is better than Riley...i've heard it all now...Lucas is really turning around Cleveland huh? thats who i'd want coaching my team!


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

with the team he has yes, he is making his team better, dont mistake success with good coaching, they are not always linked.


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

so....john lucas is making a 3win team into a 7 win team? wow i'm impressed.


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

i think you are missing my point entirely...

wins do not always show good coaching, and the other way around, i think i said this. however in you last quote you seem to not understand this, trying to point to wins...

there are so many things that the cavs need more than wins rite now...unlike the heat they have always been a bad team, under lucas they are getting better. the situation in miami is different, riley had a good team, now it is becoming one of the leauges worst (yes, look at power polls if you dont believe me). because of this IMPORTANT value, the success of the team can be shown through the coach... because of riley's bad trading moves, as well as other bad manuvers (look how he shys away from zone), the miami have become a bad team. however the cavs have always been a bad team, nothing lucas did made them bad. so he works for the future. how does he do this you ask, well allow me to answer. he keeps his players disciplined, yet happy. on a loosing team this is very hard, to keep players happy and to still have a good adittude. now look at r.davis, your example. since the suspension, something that lucas did but not riley, he has been a model bball player, i hear no complaints thus far. a signal of good coaching. now we look at the other thing lucas is responsible for, potential. he plays miles, davis, boozer, wagner...all young players not to win, thats not his job...to get better. and they have gotten better. zydrudas is now being monitered so hes healthy, and lucas takes him out when hes supposed to, unlike other cavs coaches who let him in longer with close games, and he got hurt! lucas plays wagner at sg, his natural position and vows not to make an iverson type mess, a brilliant move by the coach. no caronbutler, theyre wins are not impressive, but the coaching is.


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

so lucas is "good" b/c he plays young guys and loses games...so if riley started----James, Butler, Butler, Allen, Johnson---you'd say Riley is a good coach b/c he plays young guys for the future

heatfan---i'm never gonna agree with your views on riley---you need to look at the overall picture--before riley, we sucked every year........with riley, he turned us into a contender, then we lost zo, and lost the winning too


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

im not asking you to agree im asking you to look at this from an unbiased angle. im not trying to change you or trying to make u look stupid. im trying to get you to look at this from a different angle. please dont act as if this is a competition...its not, instead its a board where ideas are disscussed. instead of arguing, refuting, or supporting logic, u instead chose to dodge the argument. By overgeneralizing u make a complex argument seem simple, and in the process you loose its meaning. I am not saying lucas plays young guys, thus he is a good coach. I am saying he is making the right moves to make his team better. If one of these moves is to play younger guys, then so be it. However thats not my argument. My argument is that Lucas is a better coach, due to the techniques he uses. and no, unlike you have tried to do, one cannot simplify this into a singular idea or statement. Y? because situations vary from team to team. What lucas is doing for the cavs would not work for the pacers, the heat, the mavs...etc. It will only work for the cavs, thus one cannot generalize as you try to do. If lucas is presented with a different team, say the mavs, i hope his style of coaching would change. I hope that he would play the vets, and make other right moves. however all i have to go on is how he deals with the cavs. and i think in my humble opinion that he is a positive influence on the team. I think that riley is a negative influence on his team. that is my argument, please dont oversimplify it, because you cant do that, its more complex that a one sentance idea. try to look at in unbiased caron...just try to...


----------



## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

*complexity*

<b>"please dont oversimplify it, because you cant do that, its more complex that a one sentance idea."</b>

You make a valid point, as with most things in life, nothing is ever as simple as one way of looking at things or only one reason a team is successful or the reverse.

Life is complex, people are complex, hence a successful venture in team work is also complex journey.


----------



## Joker (Aug 7, 2002)

one thing u mentioned heatfan.
u base urself on what saying that caron butler would be a better player under lucas???




> if c.butler were on the cavs he would be so much better!


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

im not sure what your question is...

if your question is would caron be a better player under lucas, then yes i feel he would. I feel lucas is better at developing rookies, and can also bring out the potential caron has faster and better. this isnt my main point to the debate between myself and c.b., just a small point however.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

Lucas is terrible with rooks,and by no means would Caron benefit by playing for him!Lucas is the type of coach that will let stud rooks go out on the court and shoot the lights out,regardless of weather or not their shot is falling!That type of coaching could KILL a young players confidence,and turn the fans and media against him!

Caron's D is good but playing for Riles will turn him into one of the top defenders in the league in the next few seasons!Do u really think Lucas could help Caron develop into an ALL-AROUND great baller?


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

dujan wagner, d.miles, ricky davis, they have all benifited from him i think...well with exception to miles cuz hes injured..and boozer too now that i think about it...hes helped him too. its not what he does just on the court, but if you read about what he does off the court you find that he is a good coach that puts time and effort into his job. another coach id like to say is really good is r.carlise...man i wish the pacers had him. i know thats off topic, but hey, im mentioning good coaches so hey.


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

you need to look up some things man:
#1...Ricky Davis has been in the L for like 5-6 seasons now...he's not a rookie or very young either
#2...DMiles is also not a rookie...he's been in the L for 2-3 seasons now...and last time i saw, he hasnt been himself since he's came to CLE
#3...Wagner is a great talent...you wouldnt have to do much with him..but for your argument, i'll give you wagner as something Lucas has "helped"


BUT THEN LOOK AT SOME OTHER CAVS TALENT------
#1 Dasagna Diop----nuff said-1st rd pick, probably would get outplayed by most Heat players wives
#2 Potapenko---1st rd pick---so fragile they wont let him play more than 30 min. a game--sad
#3 Trajan Langdon--ummmmmmmmm Trajan? Where u at man? He's turned into the backup to the guys on the IR


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

now lets look at some of Riley's picks
Kurt Thomas--(1995-10th overall) i think this was riles first heat pick...i wish we still had him but he was still a great pick

-1996--1st rd sent to charlotte in Zo trade (#16)--look at the 5 picks around that pick...Kobe, Peja, Nash, Delk(#16), J.O'Neal

Charles Smith--(1997-26th overall) there is nothing else to say but THIS PICK SUCKED!

-1998--1st rd sent to clips in the brent barry trade...they missed on Al Harrington, so we wouldnt have got much there

Tim James--(1999-25th overall) he was a Cane, grew up in miami, he could play in college, it was who everyone wanted, but he didnt work. We also had the 22nd pick, which was sent to Houston-dont know why....they got kenny thomas (not bad) we missed on devean george and andre kirilenko

-2000--1st rd pick sent to Utah--for what, again i dont know. Maybe Riles realize ther was no talent there, Mo Pete was 2 picks earlier and the only player after was Jake Tsakalidis from Phoenix.

-2001--1st rd pick (#20) sent to Cleveland in Brian Grant trade. They took B.Haywood (wouldnt mind having him). We also missed alot of talent: Joe Forte, Gerald Wallace, Jammal Tinsley, Tony Parker were all after our pick.

Caron Butler--(2002-10th overall) Caron slipped, the Heat gladly took him. He was projected as a #1 pick by some experts, miami grabbed him at #10 and he's one of the top rookies right now.

i couldnt find a list of 2nd rders....but i know Eddie House, Rasoul Butler, Ken Johnson, and maybe Sasha Danilovich were all 2nd rd picks for miami.


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

looking at those picks i think we can both agree on one predominant fact. riley doesnt like rookies, or he trades away draft picks, correct? this i feel is bad management. if one trades draft picks away then logic says that the team will get older. this team might be good for the shot term, however long term needs to be adressed, and riley must have missed that memo. (even teams like the lakers adress youth so please dont argue that because they already had a good team they didnt need youth)


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Riley never has liked rookies....i think Caron Butler might be the first rookie he's played big minutes since James Worthy. He never has had to use rookies..he didnt need to when we were healthy either. Stuff happens-Zo goes out, Timmy's knees die, etc. Now we are forced to rebuild b/c of whats happened, riley's fault, not really. he couldnt predict zo would get sick. think of the team we had coming in if zo wasnt sick
5-Zo
4-BG
3-Caron
2-EJ
1-Best
Stepania,Allen,House,Butler,Carter off the bench
thats a DAMN good team right there-no arguing that-yes caron would not have the same numbers b/c he wouldnt be the main man-but that might also take off pressure and help him too. riles will get us back, no doubt in my mind that without him, we would have never won games.


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

i kinda think this argument is dead...we both are making valid pts but we both are not being persuaded. so back to the original question, do you think that riley complaining that the refs hate him was a good move?


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

John Lucas is such a GREAT coach who is developing young players in cleveland that he got..........


FIRED


a coach who can't stay in cleveland is better than Riles? Give me a break heatfan, what are you gonna come up with now?


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

well caron i can say this. i knew you were gonna bring this up. And although lucas may be considered bad and also fired, i would like to pose an alternate possibillty. Like many bad teams, a scapegoat is needed for losses. In atlanta the head coach wasnt the problem, however the franchise needed to give the fans a scapegoat, the coach. I think this is the same situation lucas is in. The cavs needed a scapegoat, and although lucas is not to blame for their problems, he was fired. Look back at nba history and you'll see that good coaches on bad teams become the scapegoat, and thus problems are blamed on them. 

this being said, I must say that this is only an alternate possibility. Perhaps I am wrong, (lol it certainly has happened before) and Lucas was the root of all the cavs problems. Perhaps his insistance to play wagner at the sg was wrong, and wag can play point. He certainly fixed the ricky davis matter, however defense is still not his strong suite. and we all know darius mile's problems after his injury. 

Looking back I must say that most of these problems don't lie in lucas however. Given a bad team I feel he helped out. He seemed to be making the right moves, however when a team needs a scapegoat, 99% of the time it is the coach.


----------



## Joker (Aug 7, 2002)

no one ever expected any W's from the Cavs. them and the nuggets were suppposed to be the frontline runners for LeBron James.
so i dont think its because of the losses.
and then tell me how did he encorporate miles in the team?
the poor guy is sadder than NVE was in denver!


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

i think he did incorporate him, and like ive stressed many times, wins dont translate to great coaching. everyone knows d.wagner has problems going to his left...perhaps this fact and the dip in his scoring created the problem for lucas's firing. if that is true, or the darius not developing as planned due to an injury, then i would think that lucas would be a scapegoat.


----------



## Joker (Aug 7, 2002)

wins dont translate into great coaching, i know that.
but they will not fire him because the team is losing, because this was a known fact even before the season started.
they probably fired him because hes not good enough, or hes not authoritarian enough to get the discipline needed from his roster.


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

he is the reason r. davis calmed down, so i think you can cross of lack of athority. he benched the best player they have for bad additude...what more do you want?

also i think that this was a dumb move on the cavs part, and the move was stupid. go to the cavs form, and look at caron butlers post. lebron is pulling a steve francis...so i think that this move was move of a hasty, dumb move than anything else by the management. Nothing to do with lucas's coaching...more to do with the inept front office i think.


----------



## Joker (Aug 7, 2002)

hahahaha chill
could be the management 
could be his coaching 
could be his lack of authority
could be the team chemistry
could be anything

but im saying that its definately not because the team is losing.


----------



## Joker (Aug 7, 2002)

ouchhhhhhh
that could hurt cleveland,
but i dont think lebron will risk too much if hes taken by the cavs. i think he'll play his *** off to prove hes as good as we say he is.
he not gonna be dumb like kobe and show the league and everyone hes got an attitute and a dumb arrogance.
and maybe theyll resign lucas is lebron gets there cause lebron already respects the guy.


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

haha, after re reading my post ur rite, i sound angry, but trust me im not. ive just been really hurried lately cuz of school, sry.


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

John Lucas woulda backed down to Ron Artest....that means Riles AND Keith Askins are better coaches

:grinning: :yes:


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

how do you know he woulda backed down from artest?

how do you know riles didnt bite for artest's trap. Artest wanted to get him (no pun intended, i know its bad) riled up, as well as make his team put more energy in the game. the result? techs on him caron and riles, but also a more spirited indiana ball club that went on to win the game.

Would artest have been able to fool lucas like he did riley is the better question. or maybe, would artest have too much respect for lucas not to do it in the first place (lol probably not knowing artest).

as an aside, riley voted for both artest and b. miller to be allstar backups, interesting, isnt it.


----------



## loyalty4life (Sep 17, 2002)

Even though I have Artest in my fantasy team, Riley is the one that was wronged. Ron just can't flex his muscles to the Heat bench then give the crowd the bird! 

:naughty: :naughty: 

This smilie is very bad.


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

riley said he had no problem with any of that, his only prob was artest pushing caron. when artest went up to the bench and "touched" riley, it was cuz he and i quote riley, "liked his tie"

said something like, "nice tie, coach"


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>heatfan</b>!
> riley said he had no problem with any of that, his only prob was artest pushing caron. when artest went up to the bench and "touched" riley, it was cuz he and i quote riley, "liked his tie"
> 
> said something like, "nice tie, coach"


That's too funny! Personally I would love to have Ron Artest in a HEAT uniform. But, he is ruining all his stellar accomplishments by engaging in the sort of behavior that transpired at the AAA. 

And Riley himself stated recently that he would LOVE to have three Ron Artests on his team. But, Riley added that "he has to get his head straightened out."

Lastly, Riley never stated what you said he did. You made that silly quote up. What Riley in fact stated was that Ron Artest approached him and said that "Caron should not be getting a T (technical)." Subsequently, Ron Artest then mockingly told Riley that he "liked Caron Butler and was only trying to help him."

BTW, I am not going to even try and debate on your "Lucas is a better coach than Pat Riley" argument. I guarantee that you do not even believe this and simply stated this to spark interesting discussion with HEAT fans. But, if you wish, we can debate this point also.


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>heatfan</b>!
> he is the reason r. davis calmed down, so i think you can cross of lack of athority. he benched the best player they have for bad additude...what more do you want?
> 
> also i think that this was a dumb move on the cavs part, and the move was stupid. go to the cavs form, and look at caron butlers post. lebron is pulling a steve francis...so i think that this move was move of a hasty, dumb move than anything else by the management. Nothing to do with lucas's coaching...more to do with the inept front office i think.


As usual, fascinating points. But, factually, it was General Manager Jim Paxson that "ordered" Lucas to suspend Ricky Davis for those games. GM Paxson had become utterly disgusted with Ricky Davis constantly mixing it up with teammates Coles and Hill as well as engaging in other conduct detrimental to the team.

GM Paxson was also very disturbed with the fact that on two prior occassions Lucas had not been able to stop this sort of behavior with Davis. Hence, Paxson finally "made" Lucas suspend Davis.

And according to the CAVS organization, Coach Lucas finally lost his position due to his inability to develop the young players and have them ready to compete every single night. Additionally, GM Paxson added that Lucas was misusing Dajuan Wagner even after the GM made repeated requests to have Wagner play more exclusively at the point.

Regarding Lebron James: Firing the coach was not a stupid move for two reasons:

1. Lebron James is from Ohio and would never turn down playing for his home state's team. If Lebron ever genuinely tried to pull a Kobe or Stevie Franchise, he would never be able to set foot in his home state again.

2. The CAVS organization as well as the rest of the league knows the aforementioned fact. ESPN's SportsCenter joked repeatedly about how for the first time, Lebron had encountered something bigger than his ego: the fans across the state of Ohio that are eagerly waiting for him to resurect their dying basketball franchise.


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>heatfan</b>!
> how do you know he woulda backed down from artest?
> 
> how do you know riles didnt bite for artest's trap. Artest wanted to get him (no pun intended, i know its bad) riled up, as well as make his team put more energy in the game. the result? techs on him caron and riles, but also a more spirited indiana ball club that went on to win the game.
> ...


This is stupid to determine whether or not Riley or Lucas would have backed down from Ron Artest. Riley, and every other coach in this league, has no desire to get into Artest's face in the first place.

Riley was upset that Artest came over toward him and started a conversation. Even disregarding the content of this conversation, just the gesture of engaging the opposing coach and bench is ridiculous and never approved of in the league. Hence, Riley repeatedly said back to Artest: "Don't talk to me."

And, yes, Riley did vote for both Ron Artest and Brad Miller as All Star reserves. But, that is because they are both amazing players that have very good stats this season and play great defense, which Riley loves.

BTW, all coaches votes - including Riley's - were due to the League about seven hours before Artest's transgression happened. And, still, Artest was snubbed by the other Eastern Conference coaches due to his past transgressions this season. Interesting isn't it?


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>heatfan</b>!
> caron, what has he done? Yes he is good with good players. so is just about every other coach. however what has he done in the opposite situation. look at carlise(sp), he was given a bad team and made it a great team. same with silas, and the cavs coach makes his team a lot better too, yes the record is bad, but he makes the team better. and hubie is good too, riley is akin to i.thomas and g.karl, both players hurt their team. pacers are good cuz they have good players, thomas gets acolades much like riley, however both are not good coaches, just have good players.


Very interesting points. But, I get the impression that your entire view of Riley and the Heat organization is based on the fact that you only recently started following the NBA.

First, Caron Butler has transcended the hype of Amare and Yao to also be considered one of the front runners for Rookie of the Year as stated by cbssportsline.com as well as ESPN. Furthermore, ESPN's David Aldridge recently stated that Lebron James would benefit the most from landing with the Heat or Grizzlies next season because of Coach Riley and Coach Brown. Translation: these two coaches know exactly how to make great players.

Second, not every coach is good with good players. For someone that goes through this entire thread stating that not everything can be broken down so simply, I am surprised that you made this statement. For instance, your team, the Indiana Pacers are very young and talented. Yet, last season, when they captured the 8th playoff seed again for the second year in a row, every individual stated that they underachieved and that this was the make or break year for Coach Thomas.

Third, you obviously are not very familiar with what Coach Riley did in New York. He transformed that entire franchise back towards respectability and contention after a 14 year drought. As Patrick Ewing said: "He created the winning aura again in the Garden by making players play above their levels." Did you ever hear of Anthony Mason, John Starks or Charles Oakley before Riley assembled that team?

Fourth, both Carlissle and Silas are very good coaches. But, neither were given bad teams. The Hornets have incredible depth and talent on their roster. And the Pistons are a veteran ladden team with every experienced member playing outstanding individual and team defense. Were they a surprise team last season? Absolutley! But, when you honestly look at their roster as well their defense philosophies, it is not that amazing that they achieved the Division title.

Fifth, Coach Thomas never received any accolades before this season and was in fact in danger of losing his job if the Pacers did not significantly preform better than the last two season.

My final two points for you:

1. Did you follow the HEAT when Riley arrived to a chronically losing expansion franchise and took a team of assembled misfits to 42 wins his first season. After, acquisition of ZO, Hardway, etc. the team then achieved 63 wins. That is an amzing coaching and rebuilding job IMO.

2. We all know that you are a Pacers fan and that is cool since you spark interesting discussions on this board. But, do you even know how and why your GM, Donnie Walsh, decided to begin his rebuilding project? Did you follow the team three years ago when Pacer fans were calling for his head for breaking up a championship contending team? Or even last year, before all your talent was begining to consistently perform and thereby underachieving again into the 8th and final playoff spot?

Many fans clearly have issues with Riley as the GM. My opinion, however, is that this stems solely from recent circumstances. Fans that remember Riley assembling a team alongside Dave Checketts in NY or the 63 win HEAT team that went to the conference finals the following year do not question his GM abilities of building a contender.

But, "recent" fans of the NBA are quick to say that Riley the GM is destroying Riley the Coach. Sure, losing a franchise/All Star Center immediately after signing Eddie and Brian has nothing to do with it. Sure, the Luxary Tax being imposed one year later which forever changed the game for the worse has nothing to do with it either. Sure, Riley should have seen all of these situations happen. Right? [this entire last paragragh is filled with sarcasm]


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

ok, first of all i would like to make a point clear. I don't like Isiah Thomas. I don't think he can coach, and I honestly think that he has no idea what he is doing. As for R. Carlise, look at the team he was given. You say it was already playoff good. I say that it was a bunch of (yes, vetrans) however the talent was not there. The reason they made the playoffs and are a good team is due to Carlise. He instilled a winning additude and a defense that made this team an overachiever. He gets each player to give their heart and soul to each game. Silas has a playoff team as far as talent goes yes. However look at the injuries he has had, baron davis, mash burn, cambell....He has given this team stability however. Without him many teams would be lost as soon as Mash went out, or their leader went down. Silas prevented this however.

Now on to Artest and Riley. First i would like to mention that not one of those statements is made up. I got the information from the paper, he did vote for both b.miller and artest, he didn't like his shove of caron, and he did say that Artest asked about his tie. I didn't make this up...I mean, I don't think I could even come up with a lie as odd as a player asking about a tie. As for Artest's behavior, yes i agree what he did was unacceptable, however I feel he will work torwards changing that. As for Artest and his middle finger surprise, other players have done this and not been fined, including Jason Kidd. I just don't like a double standard thats all.

As for Lucas, I can say this. My perception of him has changed, however some things remain constant. I will conceed that I did create a Paxton/Lucas sort of being, lumping both of their achievments together. But it was Lucas who called for Wagner, and also Lucas who wanted Lamar Odom, not D. Miles. And as for the Davis suspension, I was under the impression that he was pulled in the middle of the game, a la a coach decision, not a g.m. one. 

Riley on the other hand I honestly don't like his style of play. He says he never will use zone d, and then uses it. He signs jones and grant for a ton of money, and they are blights upon his team in terms of salary. As for developing Caron, sports center (i think, it could have been something else, however this is not made up, as is nothing I quote or say I have read from) said Caron and Gooden were the two most ready rookies. And Caron has taken more shots and gotten more minutes than any other rookie. Other rookies have been able to produce more in less time. One can't look at the stat sheet, look at the games. Yao changed the Huston team. Amare gave Pheonix a great offensive weapon and a determined defender. Wagner gets hung up going left, that is his largest problem. Once he gets better with his left hand...watch out. Caron and Gooden I cant say will improve as vastly as the aformentioned. Caron can improve his...shot...and ?adjusting more to the leauge? and after that...what? Gooden needs more minutes and his production will be a whole lot better...course that is hard on a team that features pau gasol and a coach (a very good coach) who speads minutes evenly.

Riley I feel may have been a good coach...in fact I feel he was a very good coach. But he hasn't been able to adjust. He is not a good g.m., can you agree with that statement at least and then we can go from there? 

Till then...
Heatfan


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

As for his previous coaching such as in N.Y., yes your right I am uniformed. For that reasoning I would like to say all of my reasoning is based on him as a Heat coach.


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

heatfan
what i dont like about you is that no matter what someone says...you add something extra so you are always right...for example, someone says that Caron is the best rookie..you say Caron and Gooden were most ready and get most minutes...so Yao and Amare are better...you criticize Riles now for losing after he turned around the heat franchise...you have to look at what we had before Riles...we had players even some great players (G-Money S.Smith K.Thomas etc.) but did we win? not too much. Riles changed our style, made us play harder and eventually won more games...remember riles isnt a doctor, he couldnt control what happened to Zo...without Riles, Zo is still in Charlotte and we're probably rooting for an old Glen Rice to shoot threes for us...as much as you want to criticize him (since you arent really a heat fan) you have to appreciate what hes done for miami since he's came...maybe he has to leave and then we'll (you) appreciate what we had


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

i like the heat, just not the coach.

similarly i like the pacers but dont like the coach.

You can still support a team and not like a piece of that team cant you??

As for my points...thats what this is a discussion. Im just adding facts, although you might find them angering, I would rather have conflicting thoughts than just everyone agreeing. Its hard to have a discussion where everyone is exactly the same in their ideas and views.


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>heatfan</b>!
> As for his previous coaching such as in N.Y., yes your right I am uniformed. For that reasoning I would like to say all of my reasoning is based on him as a Heat coach.


As usual, you make excellent points. However, now you state that all your "reasoning" about Coach Riley is based solely on him as the HEAT head coach.

In fact, IMO, all your "reasoning" about Coach Riley is based solely on him as HEAT head coach for the last 1 1/2 years.

You, for instance, do not mention his resurrecting the HEAT franchise from oblivian. You do not mention him getting 50 wins right after Alonzo was first diagnosed and he used Anthony Mason and Brain Grant as his low post presence. Want to really see how dominant Mason is in the low post? Watch a current Bucks game. IMO, that is a testament to Riley's coaching.

What you do in fact base your opinion on though is one year where the luxary tax kicks in and Riley is forced to hire one year guns and shed his payroll by $30+ Million. You then based your opinion on this season when Riley set this team up from the get go to fail in order to get a high draft pick, which can either be used to augment our talent or more probably as incentive for a team to trade with us this summer.

Our team consists of rookies and previously underused second yr players. IMO, Riley the GM finally overachived Riley the coach by putting his ego and winning ways in check for the good of the franchise.


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

CaronOwnsYou....thank you....i couldnt have said it better myself


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>heatfan</b>!
> ok, first of all i would like to make a point clear. I don't like Isiah Thomas. I don't think he can coach, and I honestly think that he has no idea what he is doing. As for R. Carlise, look at the team he was given. You say it was already playoff good. I say that it was a bunch of (yes, vetrans) however the talent was not there. The reason they made the playoffs and are a good team is due to Carlise. He instilled a winning additude and a defense that made this team an overachiever. He gets each player to give their heart and soul to each game. Silas has a playoff team as far as talent goes yes. However look at the injuries he has had, baron davis, mash burn, cambell....He has given this team stability however. Without him many teams would be lost as soon as Mash went out, or their leader went down. Silas prevented this however.
> 
> Now on to Artest and Riley. First i would like to mention that not one of those statements is made up. I got the information from the paper, he did vote for both b.miller and artest, he didn't like his shove of caron, and he did say that Artest asked about his tie. I didn't make this up...I mean, I don't think I could even come up with a lie as odd as a player asking about a tie. As for Artest's behavior, yes i agree what he did was unacceptable, however I feel he will work torwards changing that. As for Artest and his middle finger surprise, other players have done this and not been fined, including Jason Kidd. I just don't like a double standard thats all.
> ...


You have a very unique and intriguing way of debating....

First, I previously stated that both Rick and Paul Silas are excellent coaches. Yet, I stated that they did not inherit "horrible" teams as you did. Yes, Rick did instill first rate team and individual defensive standards as well as a great "team" offensive approach to the game. But, how can you say that a team with Ben Wallace, Corliss Williamson and Jerry Stackhouse was not talented enough to make the playoffs in the first place?

Second, Silas' team has been hit with injury as you state. Personally, I feel that Silas is a very good coach and I again previously stated this in my last post. But, the consensus is that his team always underachive and find excuses for failure. I can post links to stories if you like.

Third, Artest was excessive in his behavior at AAA and deserved the punishment he received from the league. Whether it is fair or not, Artest's past indiscretions played a role in Stu Jackson handing down the punishment. BTW, Jason Kidd was penalized by the league for giving the FINGER to the Phoenix fans. Where you get these "facts" from?

Fourth, I do not doubt that Artest made those comments and that you read them somewhere. I, however, have not been able to find one story where that account is given. Hence, can you please provide a link to the story that you took these "quotes" from?

Fifth, Davis has been benched in three games at various points earlier in the season. I am not sure what your point is here. But, the decision to finally discipline Davis was Paxson's rather than Lucas'. Again, by all accounts, Lucas lost control of that team from the get go. He is quoted at the BEGINNING of the season as saying: "The players don't think that I am the man for the job, but we are all each other has and we have to stick together."

Sixth, it is absolutely your perrogative to not like Pat Riley's style of play. I find this interesting since Indiana is currently play a style of play that is very similiar to one played under Coach Riley in 1993. But, you are entitled to your opinion.

Seventh, you do not like that Pat Riley used a zone defense? Doesn't this show that coaches can grow as well as change in order to make their players look and perform better.

Eight, I find it interesting that you say other rookies are outperforming Caron Butler. He ranks SECOND among rookies in points per game. For the month of January he averaged over 16 pts, 5 rebounds, 3 assists. AND HE RANKS 9TH IN THE ENTIRE NBA FOR STEALS! I agree with you that it is tempting to get caught up in the Yao Ming and Amare hype. Both are excellent players and I believe that one will clearly win ROY. But, please do not make statements which are unsupported about the other rookies. If you would like to bag on rookies, I think you picked the wrong one in Butler. CBSsportsline.com recently stated that Butler, Yao and Stoudimire are the FRONT RUNNERS for ROY!

BTW, how can you make such a silly comment that Butler will not improve his game. By all accounts now, he should have gone third in the draft behind Yao and Amare. No offense, but your statement about one of the most complete rookies in the league not being able to improve his game is the funniest thing I have ever heard. Did your crystal ball tell you also when rookies like Baron Davis utterly sucked his first season, that he would become a superstar?

Also, Gooden is and will be an amazinf player. He is currently on the trading block by Memphis because West concedes that it was not a good fit with Pau.

Lastly, in the same post you state that Riley has not been able to adjust and that you don't think he is good because he used a zone defense when he said he would not. As usual, very interesting..... But, I am not sure how to respond to this one.

Riley has built contenders before on more than one occasion and nothing he has done so far proves otherwise to me. Again, you go always go back to the Eddie Jones and Brian Grant contract status. Yet, not once have YOU EVER CONCEDED that both contracts were inked with a healthy ZO and before the luxary tax kicked in that changed the entire financial climate of the NBA for the worse.

Can you agree with this statement and then we can move on from there?

Till then,
CaronOwnsU :sigh:


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

Let me first address the validity of my quotes, which I have noticed that you question.

The Jason Kidd fine information came from this very board, it was said that he missed no games.


http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/4/019097-6914-039.html
Riley: "I don't want to say it was excessive or not. But if I was them, I would be absolutely beside myself."
on the artest suspension



“First of all, I would like to apologize to all the little kids who’ve seen those gestures I made on TV. On behalf of me and on behalf of the person who filmed those gestures -- those should not allowed to be shown on TV -- that was the last thing I wanted to be shown on TV. I definitely apologize to the fans and mainly to the kids." artest

Not sure who it was, but many have stated he is like rodman in his "badboy" ways. Well Rodman never apoligized. I know it seems small, but i think it indicates a big difference in the additudes.

http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/9/019044-1009-094.html


If Pat Riley's vote is representative, the two Indiana Pacers have a chance. Riley said before the Pacers' 102-95 victory over Miami on Monday that he included them in his ballot for the reserves.

Riley voting for artest

http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/1/018638-4041-039.html

and....

http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/7/019059-8327-039.html

"He liked my tie, actually," Riley said. "He actually said, 'That's a pretty nice tie, coach.' I didn't even realize there was a brush there."

-----

if there are any more that you would like me to post just ask.


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

Hey man... Great job! That is the first time I have seen you post information to back up your points.

As I stated to you in the Indiana forum, I always like getting new information so I appreciate the links. The tie incident was not reported in any of the Miami papers. But, the two conversations I stated were.

Now, can you respond to my other posts.

Thanks!


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

Butler will bring more immediate help to a team than virtually any of the lottery picks. But he is probably closer to realizing his full potential than the rest of the lottery picks at 22 years of 

age.http://nbadraft.net/mock2002.htm


Gone are the days when Pat Riley is leading the headlines because his Basketball Team is doing so well. Nope, not anymore. Instead, these days, Coach Riley is relegated to watching his pathetic Heat try with all their might to score 80 points and hopefully lose by only a few points. So what does Coach do? Yep, you guessed it, blame the referees! 

http://www.epinions.com/content_3006832772


just a couple more for ur enjoyment.


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>heatfan</b>!
> Butler will bring more immediate help to a team than virtually any of the lottery picks. But he is probably closer to realizing his full potential than the rest of the lottery picks at 22 years of
> 
> age.http://nbadraft.net/mock2002.htm
> ...


That is hilarious! You are posting a link about Butler that was written BEFORE THE DRAFT! You are not basing anything on this current season for him. Should I now start posting all the articles that have been written praising him for the six months since your article.

Again, you post a link that criticizes Riley. Are there critic of Pat Riley? Absolutely! You are one of them! But, you do not respond to how Pat Riley set this team up from the beginning of the season to fail in order to get a high draft pick.

Instead, you focus on Riley losing! Yes, Riley is losing. But, do you honestly believe that if he wanted to win this season, that he would have entered into the season with this roster?


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

LOL! This is what "Your link" says about Dunlevy!

"The Warriors may finally have lucked into the top player in the draft. Dunleavy is far from the sure bet that Jay Williams is. His lack of athleticism has nay-sayers chirping. Yet, basketball is still a mental game, and there isn't a better basketball mind in the draft. Dunleavy can do it all. Bringing aboard Dunleavy Senior would be great, but since when do father/son coaching relationships add anything to a team?"

Dunlevy can do it all?

Warrior may have finally lucked into the top player?

LOL!


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

And now on to your other comments:

I think i can pretty much break it down like this as far as the sections go...

1 Caron is one of the 3rd best rookies
2 Riley is a good gm...under bad situations
3 Riley is able to make a team over achieve
4 I only use the past year and a half for my information

So without further ado:

1) Caron is a good rookie no doubt about it. However to say he is up there with Yao and Amare is incorrect. First lets look at the present, and then lets go on to the potential, or future each player has.
Caron Butler: He produces, however he takes more shots, gets more minutes, and commands the ball more than any other rookie. Also, watching him on the floor one finds that he is the focal point of Riles offense, but not the focal point of the defending team. Jones is. Because of this, his opportunities are greater than any other rook.
Yao: He rarely gets the ball, but when he does watch out. I mean, see him play and one realizes his impact. He takes away offenders penetration, and he can block standing on his toes. He changed the Huston offense and defense. Before him they were a below .500 team (even when franchise was healthy), now they are playoff bound.
Amare: Similar situation, if you see him play you realize that he gives the offense a great 3rd option. He plays with heart and grit like no other rookie, and gives his all. He is a man among children, and his stats dont even give him justice. Watch one game of his, and then tell me Caron is better.
Wagner: At the time of this post, I think Wagner has a slight edge over caron, however he is below yao and amare. He is a good player now...however...well, ill save that for the potential section.
Gooden: He is arguably as good as Amare, just more restricted. Once again, he adds to the Memphis offense, just not as much as Gasol, so he can't prove it as much.
Jay Williams: NOT AS GOOD AS CARON. Y? no fault of his own, the triangle kills him, if he were in a different situation he would thrive.
To me those are the 5 best rooks.
Now to potential they have:
Amare: He has never played college ball, he can turn into what Shawn Kemp coulda been.
Gooden: Once he gets on a better team he can shine
Caron: Like the above mentioned links say...he is closer to reaching his potential than any other rookie. Don't expect a HUGE improvement like one can for the other top 4 rookies.
Wagner: he cannot go left. If he could, he would tear up the leauge. This is just a skill that is learned, once he does, he will be 10x better.
Yao: He is tired from years of uninteruppted play, cant speak english, and has terrible upper body strength. He will be scary in the future.


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

Regarding Jason Kidd: he was fined by the NBA rather than suspended. That is what I mean by "penalized"

But, he certainly did not do all the things that Ron Artest did now did?

At the time of Kidds incident, he was an MVP candidate, model citizen and wasn't accumulating the technicals and flagrant fouls of Artest.

BTW, I asked you repeated in an earlier post about if you remember the start of Indiana's rebuilding project to which you never replied.


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

lol duneavy is getting better...he will take a year to develop at least. Think of him as the anti caron, don't give up on him yet.


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

ill take an short hiatus on my responses mentioned to talk about the indiana rebuilding process, but what about it? I know about it well, indiana was a .500 team, lost to philly and n.j. the past 2 years. That is what ur referring to right? What about it?


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

2) Riley is not a good gm under bad circumstances.

To be a good gm one must assess talent. Now Riley counted on Zo, I know. However because of this, he signed 2 players for much more money then they deserved. Just because someone fits into your system, dont give him more money than he is worth. A gm must think about the future, and Riley was not. Instead he chose to sign these two players for more than they would ever be worth. Now he is stuck with them, and has wasted money. I think this is more a question of views however. You think opposite my opinions, thinking a player deserves more money if they fit in well? if that is what you base your argument on, that is what we disagree with in respect to these deals.


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>heatfan</b>!
> ill take an short hiatus on my responses mentioned to talk about the indiana rebuilding process, but what about it? I know about it well, indiana was a .500 team, lost to philly and n.j. the past 2 years. That is what ur referring to right? What about it?


Hey man... I have to go to dinner. I will be respond to your posts later this evening.

Although, your way of reponding to points in debate is starting to confuse and frustrate me. LOL!

I also not sure why you are giving us your take on the entire rookie class here. But, again, I will respond later.

Regarding Indiana: I asked you why Donnie Walsh took a championship contending team and started his youth movement. I also asked you how you felt about this "three" years ago. You can read any of the posts again in order to answer to specific question that are posed to you.

Try and stay on topic.

I will be back later.

BTW, I never said Dunlevy would be bad and wouldn't improve. I simply stated what you old link said, which to date is very inaccurate.


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>heatfan</b>!
> 2) Riley is not a good gm under bad circumstances.
> 
> To be a good gm one must assess talent. Now Riley counted on Zo, I know. However because of this, he signed 2 players for much more money then they deserved. Just because someone fits into your system, dont give him more money than he is worth. A gm must think about the future, and Riley was not. Instead he chose to sign these two players for more than they would ever be worth. Now he is stuck with them, and has wasted money. I think this is more a question of views however. You think opposite my opinions, thinking a player deserves more money if they fit in well? if that is what you base your argument on, that is what we disagree with in respect to these deals.


LOL! That is not my view at all. Go back and re-read my posts regarding changed circumstances: Tax, Kidney disorder, Zone defense, etc....

Anyway, I got to bolt. I will be sure to respond later. But, I am starting to get the impression that it is pointless. LOL!


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

*3) Riley makes a team overachieve*

Right now Riley has a team of a good point guard in best, a great sg in jones, and a good rookie in caron at sf. His pf is most definatly servicable, and center grant can dominate boards. His bench is also good, featuring r.butler a good 2nd round pick up. I do not see how he makes this team over achive. If anything, I see him hurting his team. This is a good team, the weakness PF can be taken care of by grants play, and his solid gaurds should be able to handle a killer offense. However look at this team. They are at the bottom of the Nba. How is this team worse than 
NEW YORK!?!?!?! or WASHINGTON?!!?!?! or what about Atlanta and Chicago?????
Thats just the east....GOLDEN STATE AND THE CLIPPERS ARE BEATING THEM AT TIME OF POST!!!!

This is not a team that overachieves by any means. Miami could and should be closer to Orlando. However Orlando has something that the Heat dont have. A coach who is good at what he does. 

if not that...tell me how those teams are beating the heat in rank? I want to know, i really do...


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

alrite later...i better go too...homework and all.
I must say i dont find this pointless, your points are much more valid than joker or the other carons posts of "HEAT ARE THE BEST TEAM" and "WE CAN GET THE #1 PICK THIS YEAR" side by side. I look forward to continuing debate.


As for the pacers question, Donnie was faced with Smits who wanted to retire due to injuries, D. Davis who wanted to restructure his contract (uh huh...), A. Davis who wanted to be a starter and Mark Jackson who wanted more money than he is worth.

Donnie realized (i think from his actions, im not his close friend or anything) that he didnt want this team to go the way of the Utah Jazz. He realized that the Pacers got as far as they could, but weren't as good as the lakers. Also he didn't even have much choice in the matter. So he traded for bender (a tmac on a bad team) J.O. an all star, and drafted Harrington, who is a great player imo.


as far as the pacers vs. lakers in the finals. Uh, i liked both teams, and the better team won. They were good games, and i liked both teams runs.

As far as staying on topic, lol, the original topic was if riley's actions in regard to saying refs were cheating him were a good move. I think that this turn in topic to a broader question of miami, riley, and all things involved is a good move.


And for the Zo thing...ive gotta go, ill try and do that later.

Till then, 
Heatfan


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

change your name back to T-Ro please....


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

and if you wanna take shots at me--go ahead--i'm not the one who is a "miami/indiana/detroit/cleveland...etc." fan
more than anything-you always think you are right--thats what i think annoys people about you....no matter what you are right and we are wrong...thats how i see it


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>heatfan</b>!
> 2) Riley is not a good gm under bad circumstances.
> 
> To be a good gm one must assess talent. Now Riley counted on Zo, I know. However because of this, he signed 2 players for much more money then they deserved. Just because someone fits into your system, dont give him more money than he is worth. A gm must think about the future, and Riley was not. Instead he chose to sign these two players for more than they would ever be worth. Now he is stuck with them, and has wasted money. I think this is more a question of views however. You think opposite my opinions, thinking a player deserves more money if they fit in well? if that is what you base your argument on, that is what we disagree with in respect to these deals.


Look... you are a "new" fan to the NBA and I understand that. But, you base your entire view of these contracts on hindsight. 
Specifically, you look at these contracts today and say that both players are underproducing for the money they get. Yet, you never acknowledge that both contracts were signed with a healthy Alonzo and in a different NBA financial climate. Your entire view is of today when every team has now become financially conservative because of the luxary tax.

You also do not acknowledge that Eddie was about to get a MAX deal from Chicago and that other teams such as the Knicks were in hot pursuit of Brain. At the time of these contracts, Riley was reshuffling the pieces to augment a contending team. He always has a reputation for asking everything from a player yet rewards them very well and always takes care of his players. This is a trait in the NBA that players love.

Hence, I do not feel that players deserve more money than they are worth as you state. But, I do feel that you do not adequately read my posts before you respond with opinions that are entirely based on this very moment rather than what the actual situation was in the ENTIRE NBA at the time of the signings.


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>heatfan</b>!
> alrite later...i better go too...homework and all.
> I must say i dont find this pointless, your points are much more valid than joker or the other carons posts of "HEAT ARE THE BEST TEAM" and "WE CAN GET THE #1 PICK THIS YEAR" side by side. I look forward to continuing debate.
> 
> ...


LOL! I am not sure that a previously banned member that returns to this forum just to razz a team that is in its first year of rebuilding has the maturity to say something derrogatory about other posters. But, maybe it's just me.

Regarding Indiana: Thank you for finally responding after three inquiries. It took a while to get the info from indystar, huh? Just kidding. Anway, I specifically wanted to know how you felt about the rebuilding at its inception. If you were one of the very few Pacers that thought Walsh was doing a great job at the time, then I commend you. Because, by all accounts, Pacer fans flipped out when he overhauled the team simply because Smits was retiring and certain players wanted specific contracts. In fact, there were even rumors after the first season of the rebuilding project that Walsh would be fired by your owner for destroying a team that had another run in it and hiring Thomas as the coach of a team that subsequently sneaked into the final seed. 

My point: rebuilding takes time. You view your entire opinion on how great the Pacers are today after three years and chronically insult the franchise in its FIRST year of rebuilding that was caused by circumstances beyond anyone's control (i.e. losing our franchise center).

BTW, I much prefer discussing the Heat with my fellow HEAT fans such as CB and Joker than having this pointless debate with you. A good debate is when the opponent actually responds to the facts and inquiries made. Yet, I have to repeat question three or four times for you and always feel as if you have not even read my posts or inquiries.

Sometimes, yes, you do spark interesting discussions. But, can you also understand the futility that fellow posters feel when discussing things with you since you say the same things over and over again just to demonstrate how much you hate the HEAT.

Look, keep posting here if you wish. But, know that you do not properly know how to debate and respond to points which makes the whole endeavor very frustrating. I suspect though that this is your point. LOL!

All for now,
CaronOwnsU


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: 3) Riley makes a team overachieve*



> Originally posted by <b>heatfan</b>!
> Right now Riley has a team of a good point guard in best, a great sg in jones, and a good rookie in caron at sf. His pf is most definatly servicable, and center grant can dominate boards. His bench is also good, featuring r.butler a good 2nd round pick up. I do not see how he makes this team over achive. If anything, I see him hurting his team. This is a good team, the weakness PF can be taken care of by grants play, and his solid gaurds should be able to handle a killer offense. However look at this team. They are at the bottom of the Nba. How is this team worse than
> NEW YORK!?!?!?! or WASHINGTON?!!?!?! or what about Atlanta and Chicago?????
> Thats just the east....GOLDEN STATE AND THE CLIPPERS ARE BEATING THEM AT TIME OF POST!!!!
> ...


LOL! I have answered this question for you in three of my previous posts. Honestly, this is getting very tiring and annoying for me, which I am sure is your intent. After you make sure to get the final posts in this thread, I say we all let this discussion end.

Two points regarding the HEAT being low in the standings:

1. My father is the personal and corporate lawyer for Pat Riley as well as his corporation Riles & Co. Riley made it clear after last year's season with veteran cast offs that it is time to rebuild through the draft and free agency. Hence, this team with Stephania, Malik Allen, James, etc. was structured (after Mourning again went down) to fail in order to get a high draft pick that can be used to augment talent or as an incentive as part of a possible trade.

2. Do you really believe that if Riley the GM wasn't trying to help this franchise for the future rather than winning today, that he would have structured the team this way. We have a billionaire owner that thinks Riley walks on water and would give him anything he wants. But, Riley wants to see the young guys develop into an effective bench down the road and obtain a "very high" draft pick. Hence, Riley the GM put Riley the coach aside for this season and probably the next.


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>heatfan</b>!
> And now on to your other comments:
> 
> I think i can pretty much break it down like this as far as the sections go...
> ...


LOL! First you oversimplify the points of mine which you choose not to ignore and then you give us your laundry list opinions about this season's draft class which has no relevance to what we were discussing.

I never stated that Amare, Yao and Caron were all on equal footing at this point. In fact, I stated that Yao or Amare will win ROY but that cbssportsline.com as well as ESPN also state that Caron is also in contention.

Anyway, I am not going to discuss your individual views about the rookie class (i.e., Wagner is better than Caron LOL!) because it is irrelavant to what we were discussing.

It is truly amazing that when you try and debate you either pick and choose what you wish to respond to or simply ignore everything and go off on these tangents. 

BTW, Eddie Jones is the focal point of our offense rather than Caron as you state. In fact, on most evenings Caron is the third offensive option for the HEAT. But, I wouldn't expect you to know this. And you constantly say that Caron is getting a certain amount of minutes and shots. Yet, as usual, you ignore the fact that as a rookie small forward he is averaging 14.1 pts, 5.5 rebounds, 3 assists, and 3 steals per game. He is ranked 9th in the entire NBA in steals per game!

I am curious: How did you feel about Paul Pierce during his rookie season? Or even Shawn Marion?

You think Caron sucks and I am perfectly cool with that. I tell you concrete sports websites that are RECENTLY AND CURRENTLY praising Caron (including the NBA's official site) and you say Caron sucks and post something from a rinky dink website that was written before the draft. 

I say Caron is doing a great job his rookie season, earning his minutes and transcending the hype of Amare and Yao always getting air time on ESPN. And you say Dajuan Wagner is better than Caron regardless of November, December and January stats and will be amazing as soon as he learns to go to his left.

LOL! As I stated before, you win....... You are a great debater full of knowledge that I can never refute regardless of how hard I try and how many facts I have. LOL!


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

T-Ro ("heatfan"):

I am curious of something: in the NBA forum, various fans from around the site were ripping your team the Indiana Pacers, Ron Artest and even Coach Thomas.

Yet, after an initial statement by you that was butchered by everyone, you left the forum and no longer tried to defend your points. For a great debater like you, I expected more. You were finally given an opportunity to discuss your team since your own forum is slow and you run away. I don't get it?

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=17812

LOL!

Anyway, its been fun.


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

I'll do it for him

1. Ron Artest is the biggest punk in the NBA. I know without a doubt if Zo was on that court, Artest wouldn't have touched Caron and definitely wouldnt have disrespected Riley. 

2. Reggie Miller's comments about the NBA...the way I see it, Reggie is just mad b/c his sister gets more p***y than he does. Sorry reggie...

3. Coach Thomas is a joke. Larry Bird, then Thomas, who's next? Charles Barkley?


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> I'll do it for him
> 
> 1. Ron Artest is the biggest punk in the NBA. I know without a doubt if Zo was on that court, Artest wouldn't have touched Caron and definitely wouldnt have disrespected Riley.
> ...


LOL! Personally, I hate ripping on other teams and fans. But, that comment about Reggie and Cheryll Miller was the funniest thing I have heard in weeks.

I also agree that if Zo was on the court, Artest would have been less chirpy....


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

let me try to post in order relating to your posts...

1) What makes you so sure I am T-ro? I've read his posts, and we are similar in the fact that we both like the Pacers. Thats it. He hates the Heat, I don't. I like the Cavs, he mentions them never....

2) I did take shots at caron butler and Joker. And as soon as Caron Butler posted he proved my point. Instead of discussion of points, he insults players like Reggie Miller who have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

3) I never claim to always be right. In fact I feel that I am much more wrong than right in just about every issue. No one is perfect, including me.

4) You state that he will give players more than they deserve. Something along the lines of "rewards players well" I think this is where we differ. GM's need to evaluate players and give them their worth, not "rewarding them well." He may be popular due to the money he gives, but it hurts his status as a GM.

5)I understand that rebuilding takes a long time, and it will take at least 2 years for this to occur. The difference is that I find (taking your example) Walsh's rebuilding a good proccess. The only complaint I have there is Isiah Thomas. This is not hindsite...i always supported the bender aquisition (still do, still like his potential), Rik retiring, and as far as the J.O. for D. Davis, that was more of a lack of options, you cant blame a coach for a restructuring call. As far as the heat go let me say this. This team has potential and is rebuilding. Now from this statement allow me to elaborate. I think my main problem is that I am not biased for the heat. I try not to be biased to any team. For instance I think that the Pacers aren't being biased against by the officials. However I do think the leauge in general has officiating problems. The Heat of course have Caron, who i stress is the best player available at 10. If i were given the 10th pick, i woulda picked caron. I never have said that any rookie after 10 is better than him. That being said I do have problems with him. He is no Paul Pierce, i don't like that comparison. Hes a good player that dropped, comparison ends there. -as an aside you ask what i think of Pierce...I think he is a good player, but very selfish- The main points I argue (my pillars concerning the Heat are) The Heat will not do well this year...and get a draft pick from around 5-8. The Heat will be good in 2-3 more years. The Heat's main problem is Riley. No where do I say I don't love this team, I do. However those facts I do state are supported by logic. By not doing well i mean not making the playoffs....this is pretty obvious. However with a team as good as aformentioned, I feel that it will surge come post all star break. Thus the 5-8 d.pick. Riley I feel hurts this team. Of course this is opinion. However I feel that with the team ensembled, Riley purposely hurts them to create a higher draft pick for the Heat. Is this a bad move? I feel it is not, and perhaps this is another case of disagreement.


6) You say that I oversimplify and ignore points of yours. Of course this is true, however I mean to make it clear that you do the same to my posts. I don't expect an answer to every point raised by my posts, for neither you nor i have the time nor energy to have a debate by post. It would be virtually impossible. I will try to stop oversimplifying your posts however, for I hate it when the same is done to me.

7) My anaylisis of rookies was done for a reason. You stated in a post that Caron was rising...which (pardon me if this is incorrect) seemed to say that he has a possibility of winning roy. My post concerning rookies was meant to show other rookies who have a far better chance of winning roy. If this seems like a tangent to you I am sorry, it is not meant to be one.

8) Where do I say caron sucks??? Is being a top 5 rookie in a strong draft a sign of how much he as u put it "sucks?" I never said this. And when eddie jones went down with an injury who took over on the offense? CARON. and when eddie came back...caron remained. He has steadily taken over the offense.

9) why did I leave the forum? Scott was saying exactly what I would have said. Why reiterate what another poster says...if something else needs to be said that hasnt been posted...I will post.

10) ahh...there it is...Caron_Butler's worthy discussion. Please explain to me one more time how those comments are as helpful as these...which at least try to give fact and detail about the game. Instead of "reggie is just made his sister gets more p***y than he does.

11) By basing facts upon what would have been one cannot create a logical basis for fact. It is a fallacy to say..."if it had been" or "if he woulda been there" because it never happened. There is no way to tell what woulda happened, because it never did happen, and thus there is no proof to support or disprove your claim.

-I hope this clears up some misunderstanding, if not, feel free to go ahead and ask. 

And to end this post in CaronOwnsU-esque style...
LOL!


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

Wow.... How long did it take you to write this? Just kidding.

Anyway, I personally have my views of you and your debating skills and you have your views of the Heat and Caron Butler.

As I said before, this "debate" is over and you can say whatever you wish. You ignore all facts and insider knowledge of the HEAT and still feel that you are getting your point across.

BTW, you have insulted more posters here than any others. 

And I know that you are T-RO because in an old post, Joker asked you if you were T-RO and you said "very good".

Anyway, good luck to the Pacers.

Let me sign off this post in T-RO/"heatfan"/Schizophrenic fashion:

HEAT SUCK. CARON SUCKS, RILEY SUCKS AND I DONT CARE WHAT ANYONE SAYS EVEN THE NBA, ESPN OR PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY KNOW RILEY OR ZO.

lol!


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

???? show me the post where i said "very good"

please...maybe you know something about me that i dont.

and yeh i type fast.

hahaha...even trying to end your post, "heatfan" style you stay true to your lol!


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>heatfan</b>!
> ???? show me the post where i said "very good"
> 
> please...maybe you know something about me that i dont.
> ...


The post where you said " very good" and insulted Joker was edited by the old moderator devasta. The post is entitled Riley/West and Devastata deleted both your's and Joker's insults.

Here is another time though where Joker called you T-RO that you, as usual, never denied before today. There are also two other posts that you have been called out as T-RO which you, as usual, never denied before today.

http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=9368

Personally, I think it is hilarious that you actually believe that anyone reading this forum for awhile can't tell that you are T-RO.

Anyway, say what you wish after this.... This is my last post about this pointless discussion.

Just for you: LOL!


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

I thought it better to regard such claims as insults, and to ignore them. I have never said i am t-ro, i never will. you are the only person who i think consistanly calls me t-ro, and you say you have a way to prove it. however that way is edited. Tell me then, if you just came here a couple days ago, and this now edited thread is old...

wouldnt it have already been edited...i mean, usually old threads are not re edited constantly.


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>heatfan</b>!
> I thought it better to regard such claims as insults, and to ignore them. I have never said i am t-ro, i never will. you are the only person who i think consistanly calls me t-ro, and you say you have a way to prove it. however that way is edited. Tell me then, if you just came here a couple days ago, and this now edited thread is old...
> 
> wouldnt it have already been edited...i mean, usually old threads are not re edited constantly.


I have read the posts in this forum every week since my last post in the summer.

I am also a semi-intelligent person (Yale?) and have posted with you through both names (T-RO; heatfan) and for the most part you write identically and spew off the same points. 

And, if I am the only person that thinks that you are T-RO, then so be it. But, do you really believe this?

Anyway, its irrelevant. If you are not a previously banned member that insults the HEAT, likes the Pacers and writes identically to this person then I am wrong and you are right.


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>heatfan</b>!
> He is no Paul Pierce, i don't like that comparison. Hes a good player that dropped, comparison ends there. -as an aside you ask what i think of Pierce...I think he is a good player, but very selfish-


I never made the comparison between Caron Butler and Paul Pierce. What I specifically asked you was what your opinion of Paul Pierce and Shawn Marion were when they were rookies?

Were you a fan of the NBA when Paul Pierce and Shawn Marion were rookies? Or even a player such Baron Davis?

I was curious on your past evaluations of rookies in order to see the merits of current "evaluations.". But, again, you fail to exercise sufficient reading comprehension skills in ascertaining the clear points that I am getting across.

BTW, if you go read any of my old posts in this thread, you will see that in every response I sufficiently respond to all points that you make in your inquiries. You, however, do not.

And you say that you wrote this post quickly. Can we not compare the style, substance and writing structure of this post to the twenty other posts that you have written in this thread when you decide to stay in this forum and respond immediately rather than going off, drafting something worthy of reading and acting as if you are now above all the accusations.

Anyway, all the best.


----------



## Absynth (Oct 1, 2002)

i have always liked baron davis and the matrix.

i dont like paul's style of play.

in regard to the other stuff....

i honestly think this is a dead thread...its just the same old stuff over and over, im not gonna post after this one in this thread.

i never questioned ur intelligence, just your source of information.

its dinner time, ill talk to u later

lol!


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>heatfan</b>!
> i have always liked baron davis and the matrix.
> 
> i dont like paul's style of play.
> ...


Okay.... But, again, I am asking you what you SPECIFICALLY liked or disliked about them as ROOKIES. I wish to understand the merits of your reasoning for analyzing a rookie class.

I agree with you though that this is a dead thread.

BTW, my source of information is:

1. I have posted with both "you and t-ro" and can recognize the that there is not one writing style distinction between the various post..... but, ofcourse, now you try and throw in the occasional post or thread to show that you are not always overly critical of the HEAT.

2. You never had any issue with individuals calling you t-ro before today and all of a sudden act as if you are taking the higher ground.

3. We are BOTH intelligent individuals (Haverford is a great school as well) and for that reason I believe that either of us could recognize when the other is full of crap.

4. I have read everyone of your "posts" every week since I left this forum last summer and some even say that I have a "decent" memory. I was able to remember immediately the thread titles where you were called t-ro.

5. But, again, I reiterate that if you are not someone that has the identical writing style and structure to T-RO (banned member), hates the HEAT and is a Pacers fan, then I sincerely apologize.

Just for you: LOL! BTW, I write LOL! with all my posts because I enjoy using this message board for enjoyment and knowledge rather than being overly critical and immature about a team in its first year of rebuilding. But, whatever floats your boat.

Lastly, didn't early admission letters for Haverford go out already? When do you hear?


----------



## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

U 2 sound like a couple of school girls! 

Can we talk Heat basketball?!?!:devil:


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HEATLUNATIC</b>!
> U 2 sound like a couple of school girls!
> 
> Can we talk Heat basketball?!?!:devil:


Personally, I don't see you talking alot of heat basketball in this forum when I am here. But, okay, what do you want to talk about?

BTW, if you want t-ro in this forum then so be. But, I honestly think that you are the only one.


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HEATLUNATIC</b>!
> U 2 sound like a couple of school girls!
> 
> Can we talk Heat basketball?!?!:devil:


And actually.... for all my criticisms of t-ro, he is always in this forum "talking" heat basketball.

I may not agree with his style and motives. But, atleast he at times is raising interesting points rather than just posting Caron's box score after games.

So..... what do you want to talk about?


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HEATLUNATIC</b>!
> U 2 sound like a couple of school girls!
> 
> Can we talk Heat basketball?!?!:devil:


Hey.... Heatlunatic..... where did you go?

I thought you wanted to talk "heat basketball"?


----------



## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

i think heatfan/T-ro is mad for the same reason as reggie...


----------



## Joker (Aug 7, 2002)

HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA


----------



## Joker (Aug 7, 2002)

**** man!
caron-butler u crack me up!!:yes: :yes: :yes: 

heatfan, i think u can admit u r t-ro. i knew it ever since ur thread one and i told it to u ever since. theyre not gonna kick u out for that or anything.

heatlunatic does make a point. read this thread over again. 7 pages of trying to get a yes or a no over wether heatfan is t-ro. we really didnt say any BBall in there except for the beginning part.


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Joker</b>!
> **** man!
> caron-butler u crack me up!!:yes: :yes: :yes:
> 
> ...


Actually Joker, I think you need to re-read this thread again because it is 5 1/2 pages of the most interesting HEAT discussion that our forum has seen in months. 

Only 1 and 1/2 pages are a discussion of whether of not "heatfan" is T-RO, which would not have happened if you had adequetly debated him months ago.

Also, if you or heatlunatic want interesting "HEAT discussions" in this forum, then why not post more frequently and comment on all threads that are in here?

Caron_Butler, T-ro and I have been in this forum many times in the last 2 days posting stuff when Heatlunitic is just browsing. So, if he wants interesting talk of "heat basketball", then he should participate or shut the hell up.

BTW, maybe its just me but I personally feel that T-RO and I debated to death everything possible pertaining to the HEAT in this thread: Riley as GM and Coach; Jones & Grants contracts; where Caron Butler ranks among others in his rookie class; rebuilding; etc... 

What more do you want in one thread?


----------



## Joker (Aug 7, 2002)

alright alright... but its fine we dont need t-ro to say he is t-ro... its more fun when we argue with him on his super team insights.


----------



## CaronOwnsU (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Joker</b>!
> alright alright... but its fine we dont need t-ro to say he is t-ro... its more fun when we argue with him on his super team insights.


hahahaha! I completely agree. I actually never wanted him to admit he was t-ro or leave this forum. I think its too funny "debating" with him about his alleged favorite team. I also laugh my *** off every time he thinks that nobody on this entire board knows that he is a banned member that came back under another name.

The dude needs to develop some maturity and use his free time to play a sport. But, I think we all do get enjoyment out of him posting in this forum and thinking he is actually coming across as an "unbiased heatfan". LOL!

BTW, do you know why foxboy was suspended?


----------



## Doggpound (Nov 1, 2002)

I agree it was a lively debate. 

But if it continues down the road it's on, I'm going to have to lock it or delete it which I really don't want to do.


----------

