# Top 20 Centers



## yuyuza1 (May 24, 2006)

http://www.sportsline.com/nba/story/10977659



> 8. Greg Oden, Portland: He missed all of last season after being the No. 1 pick in the draft, but he will join the league now with a vengeance, making sure his presence is felt. The year off will relieve the pressure of being a No. 1 pick, making his debut season even more impressive.



Only gripe I have with the rankings is that Bynum and Shaq are ranked ahead of Sheed and and Chandler, but otherwise, they looks fair to me.


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## World B. Free (Mar 28, 2008)

Cool article! I think Shaq is over rated on the list but that is all.


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

yuyuza1 said:


> http://www.sportsline.com/nba/story/10977659
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That list has zero credibility in my eyes, Howard the best center in the league? Yao is so much more talented it's not even funny -- the dude just can't stay healthy.


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## World B. Free (Mar 28, 2008)

nikolokolus said:


> That list has zero credibility in my eyes, Howard the best center in the league? Yao is so much more talented it's not even funny -- the dude just can't stay healthy.


So would you rather build a new team with Howard or Yao?


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## Zybot (Jul 22, 2004)

yuyuza1 said:


> http://www.sportsline.com/nba/story/10977659
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shaq is way too high. Biedrins and Okur are also ranked way too low in my opinion.


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## Tortimer (Jun 4, 2007)

Zybot said:


> Shaq is way too high. Biedrins and Okur are also ranked way too low in my opinion.


I agree 100%. Shaq is way to high and both Okur and Biedrins are way to low IMO. Especially Okur who is a pretty decent center and a lot better then some of those higher ranked centers IMO.


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## Elton (May 26, 2007)

Oden should rocket up this list in short order, given that he plays most of the games of the season. He will be at least #3 midway through the season. He's just that much of a dominating presence.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Elton said:


> Oden should rocket up this list in short order, given that he plays most of the games of the season. He will be at least #3 midway through the season. *He's just that much of a dominating presence.*


And you already know this how?? You might as well give me the next months Lotto #'s while your @ it???


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

World B. Free said:


> So would you rather build a new team with Howard or Yao?


That wasn't the basis for the list ... best at position was the criteria.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

World B. Free said:


> So would you rather build a new team with Howard or Yao?


age or health are not the question that the list is claiming to be addressing though... it's who is the best. I'm sure some would disagree as posters don't seem to agree on much, but I think Ming is the most productive center by a good margin.

STOMP


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## OdenRoyLMA2 (May 23, 2008)

Blue Magic said:


> And you already know this how?? You might as well give me the next months Lotto #'s while your @ it???


You act like Oden has never picked up a basketball before. There's a reason this 7', 290 lb. beast was the #1 pick of the draft.


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## World B. Free (Mar 28, 2008)

nikolokolus said:


> That wasn't the basis for the list ... best at position was the criteria.


I know I am just asking your opinion


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

STOMP said:


> age or health are not the question that the list is claiming to be addressing though... it's who is the best. I'm sure some would disagree as posters don't seem to agree on much, but I think Ming is the most productive center by a good margin.
> 
> STOMP


Most skilled? sure. Most Productive? no. Call me a homer but Dwight is more productive, which is why he is considered better.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> And you already know this how?? You might as well give me the next months Lotto #'s while your @ it???


Are you really that unconfident in your ability to project players that you'd equate it to projecting lotto numbers? 

A few decades of watching hoops and seeing guy go from college to the pros helps me feel comfortable projecting Greg. For a hard number comparison, his run/jump combine #'s were right there with your guy DHoward, but of course he's a lot bigger (taller and heavier). Having spent his college year without full use of his right hand helped him develop his off hand which should prove very useful. One way he is not like Howard at all is that when he last played with his shooting hand in HS he was an 80% shooter from the line... heck I'm sure you'd be happy if Howard shot them at 65% like Greg did with his left hand while at OSU.

Here's thinking that the kid is going to rearrange that list Day 1

STOMP


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

OdenRoyLMA2 said:


> You act like Oden has never picked up a basketball before. There's a reason this 7', 290 lb. beast was the #1 pick of the draft.


You ever heard of Olawikandi, Kwame Brown, Bargnani, Andrew Bogut?? Not saying that Oden will turn out like any of those, but just becuz someone comes in with alot of hype and is a #1 pick does not automatically mean that they will "dominate" the league from day one. Everybody's different, which is why you cant just assume he will "dominate the league" until we at least see some pre-season games or something.... What's his conditioning like? Can he stay out of foul trouble?? Can he body these men around like he was those college kids "from day ONE"??? maybe, but you cant really just assume that he will dominate from day ONE. He will probably be top 3 in a year or two, but by midway through the year.....That's sounds mighty optimistic, but i wouldn't be soo sure just yet, bud.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Most skilled? sure. Most Productive? no. Call me a homer but Dwight is more productive, which is why he is considered better.


I just looked at the stats which are pretty even. What separates them in my eyes at least is the FT line. Teams play hack a Howard in tight games while Ming is the best FT shooting 5 in the league. Teams need production at the end of games too but unfortunately the Magic have a major problem down the stretch

STOMP


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

STOMP said:


> Are you really that unconfident in your ability to project players that you'd equate it to projecting lotto numbers?
> 
> A few decades of watching hoops and seeing guy go from college to the pros helps me feel comfortable projecting Greg. For a hard number comparison, his run/jump combine #'s were right there with your guy DHoward, but of course he's a lot bigger (taller and heavier). Having spent his college year without full use of his right hand helped him develop his off hand which should prove very useful. One way he is not like Howard at all is that when he last played with his shooting hand in HS he was an 80% shooter from the line... heck I'm sure you'd be happy if Howard shot them at 65% like Greg did with his left hand while at OSU.
> 
> ...


Exactly. Howard wasnt even considered a top 3 center until THIS year tho my freind. You think Oden will be better than guys like Al Jefferson, Amare, Jermaine O'neal, Yao, Dwight, & others, as a rookie..?? Ok, buddy keep believing that. You say Oden shot FT's @ 80% in HS. Dwight shot 3's @ like a 30% clip in HS and FT's @ like 70%, but this isnt HS it is the NBA, and Oden isnt 250, he's 290. Lets see if he still has the same touch and athleticism he had with 40 extra pounds of weight on him and coming off of knee surgery. Like I said, you can be optimistic about your guy, but @ the same time I still have some questions that I need to see answered before I shovel this guy in as top 3 Center in the NBA as only a rook. You can be optimistic, but please, try and at least be a little realistic. Top 3 Center in a year or two?? Aight, well see how he does this year. But top 3 center by mid-season?? Please, give me a damn break, you guys dont need to get carried away with it, lets just be real.


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## OdenRoyLMA2 (May 23, 2008)

Well if all it takes to be a top 3 center in the NBA is to average 13/10 for 30 games then I'm confident Oden will be there.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

STOMP said:


> I just looked at the stats which are pretty even. What separates them in my eyes at least is the FT line. Teams play hack a Howard in tight games while Ming is the best FT shooting 5 in the league. Teams need production at the end of games too but unfortunately the Magic have a major problem down the stretch
> 
> STOMP


I'm not tryna act like Howard is more skilled, but he IS more productive. He has the more efficient FG% and he is the better rebounder. He gets to the line @ a higher clip, gets more blocks, more steals, plays more games. That's what I define as "more productive". FT% is a factor, but that is like the only area where Yao's production is better. That's like saying Michael Redd is better than Dwyane Wade because he is more skilled and is a better shooter and what-not, when we all know that DWade is just simply the more productive player.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Exactly. Howard wasnt even considered a top 3 center until THIS year tho my freind. You think Oden will be better than guys like Al Jefferson, Amare, Jermaine O'neal, Yao, Dwight, & others, as a rookie..?? Ok, buddy keep believing that.


did I say he'd be the best center in the league day 1? Try a reread...


> You say Oden shot FT's @ 80% in HS. Dwight shot 3's @ like a 30% in HS, but this isnt HS it is the NBA


are HS hoops different sizes or heights then pro hoops? Greg claims to have shot FTs ad nausium during his rehab and has set a goal of having a hgher percentage then Yao his rookie year.


> Oden isnt 250, he's 290. Lets see if he still has the same touch and athleticism he had with 40 extra pounds of weight on him and coming off of knee surgery. Like I said, you can be optimistic about your guy, but @ the same time I still have some questions that I need to see answered before I shovel this guy in as top 3 Center in the NBA as only a rook. *You can be optimistic, but please, try and at least be a little realistic*. Top 3 Center in a year or two?? Aight, well see how he does this year. But top 3 center by mid-season?? Please, give me a damn break, you guys dont need to get carried that away with it.


Greg has been projected as a once of a generation center for a lot longer then Portland has held his rights. Pretty funny that you are basically arguing against most of the hoops experts who project players for a living and yet claiming we're the ones being unrealistic. Should the whole world give you a damn break or just Blazer fans?

Greg was 257 at the combine, is about 290 today, and is projected to be at 275-280 when the season starts... I'm not sure what your 250lbs was in reference to. Reports from players, coaches, and reporters observing the 5 on 5 games that the team is running daily are that he has all the expolosiveness today that he was displaying last year prior to going down. I can fill you in on the injury details if you like, but the prognosis was for a full recovery and thats what it appears he has done. 

STOMP


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

OdenRoyLMA2 said:


> Well if all it takes to be a top 3 center in the NBA is to average 13/10 for 30 games then I'm confident Oden will be there.


That list is garbage because we all know that Bynum is not a top 3 center, period. Al Jefferson, Jermaine Oneal, and Amare & Duncan(if you consider them centers) are all better than him. That makes Bynum top 6 at best and does not mean that Oden will be top 3 just because Bynum is inaccurately ranked. Jermaine O'neal put those #'s up on 1 leg. If Oden can put those #'s up on 2 legs, coming off of knee sugery, as a rookie, than that will be a step in the right direction.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> I'm not tryna act like Howard is more skilled, but he IS more productive. He has the more efficient FG% and he is the better rebounder. He gets to the line @ a higher clip, gets more blocks, more steals, plays more games. That's what I define as "more productive". *FT% is a factor, but that is like the only area where Yao's production is better*. That's like saying Michael Redd is better than Dwyane Wade because he is more skilled and is a better shooter and what-not, when we all know that DWade is just simply the more productive player.


you don't value PPG or Assists? Blocks is a virtual tie. Seems you ARE the homer that you claimed to be.

STOMP


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

STOMP said:


> you don't value PPG or Assists? Obviously you ARE the homer that you claimed to be.
> 
> STOMP


When he gets 1 more *more point* shooting @ nearly a *10% lower clip*, i dont look at that as "more productive"......which is what we are debating here. He also gets 1 more assit per game, but like 3 or 4 less rebounds. When I balance that out, 3 or 4 more scoring oppurtunities, or 1 more assist......my homer insticts just told me to take the 3 or 4 extra possesions, but i guess im completely out of line with that logic. Please enlighten me on how Yao was "more productive" last year and how Oden will utterly dominate the entire league.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> When he gets 1 more *more point* shooting @ nearly a *10% lower clip*, i dont look at that as "more productive"......which is what we are debating here. He also gets 1 more assit per game, but like 3 or 4 less rebounds. When I balance that out, 3 or 4 more scoring oppurtunities, or 1 more assist......my homer insticts just told me to take the 3 or 4 extra possesions, but i guess im completely out of line with that logic. Please enlighten me on how Yao was "more productive" last year and how Oden will utterly dominate the entire league.


you've obviously made up your mind and only considering/lisitng things in your guys favor so whats the point of trying to enlighten you? Making up BS and claiming thats what I wrote is tiresome as well.

Have a nice day

STOMP


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## LameR (Jan 4, 2004)

According to these very forums, posters value Dwight more than Yao.

http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-forum/411219-bbf-player-rankings-8-a.html

Just saying, there's different opinions for everything.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

STOMP said:


> you've obviously made up your mind and only considering/lisitng things in your guys favor so whats the point of trying to enlighten you? Making up BS and claiming thats what I wrote is tiresome as well.
> 
> Have a nice day
> 
> STOMP


Ok, I take this as an admission that Yao is not "more productive" than Dwight, he is simply taller and more skilled, which I did in fact list/consider.... 

Also, you jumped into an argument defending guys claiming Oden to be a top 3 center as soon as next year.... which is what I was initially debating against.....not that horrible list that was posted that had Bynum as a top 3 center.... so I dont know the BS you are refering to..... I just put down my own list of Centers and said that thinking Oden could be better than even 2 or 3 of those as a rookie, making him "top 3", was rediculous.

You have a nice day as well.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Ok, I take this as an admission that Yao is not "more productive" than Dwight, he is simply taller and more skilled, which I did in fact list/consider.....


You've been making up facts and distorting stats to fit your cause, why shouldn't you just pull your conclution out your bleep? Whatever floats you boat/I couldn't care less.

STOMP


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Bynum is WAY too high at No. 3. He averaged 13.1 PPG, 10.2 RPG and 2.1 BPG for a whopping 35 games. Chris Kaman, who they have ranked 11th, put up better numbers for more games - 15.7 PPG, 12.7 RPG and 2.8 RPG for 55 games. 

If the list is based on potential, then yes, Bynum should be ranked higher than Kaman. But, it it's based on actual production, having Bynum 3rd and Kaman 11th is ridiculous. Bynum may be younger and more exciting, but Kaman was having a great season and was more productive than Bynum prior to their respective injuries.

Seems like the author had some bias that influenced his rankings. Something tells me if the two switched uniforms, Kaman would suddenly be ranked higher.

BNM


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

STOMP said:


> You've been making up facts and distorting stats to fit your cause, why shouldn't you just pull your conclution out your bleep? Whatever floats you boat/I couldn't care less.
> 
> STOMP


Your right. I made ALL of those stats up. Please, give me a damn break son you must just be mad cuz u ran out of points to debate or something, but dont act like I just made the **** up when all of the stats are on NBA.com for everyone to see. You point to FT%, 1 more ppg, & 1 more apg, like thats the be-all end-all of a more productive player, and then say I just made my points up when I refuse to acknoledge those as the only determining factors in the discussion. I gave my reasons for why I believe what I believe, and to disagree is one thing, but you saying I made my stats up and distorted them is laughable. Whatever man, You seem like the one who has made up your mind and refuse to listin to an outside opinion, as u shun anything that isn't directly in line with you or ur logic as "made-up" & "distorted".... Just take a L and move on to fight another day. 

eace:


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

That list sucks!


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> You ever heard of Olawikandi, Kwame Brown, Bargnani, Andrew Bogut?? Not saying that Oden will turn out like any of those, but just becuz someone comes in with alot of hype and is a #1 pick does not automatically mean that they will "dominate" the league from day one.


Please, you're just hurting your own position with such ridiculous arguments. NONE of those guys were considered future No. 1 picks before their sophomore season in high school. They were all highly questionable and questioned No. 1 picks at the time they were selected. 

Olowokandi played at a small college in a very weak conference - and even so, he stunk until his junior year of college. Picking him first was just one of many examples of poor drafting by the Clippers.

Most NBA experts were shocked when Michael Jordan made Kwame Brown the No. 1 pick in the draft - and it'a prime example that great players don't necessarily make great GMs. When given another chance with a high draft pick, Jordan chose Adam Morrison. 'Nuff said. He was a great player, but is a horrible evaluator of player talent and how it will translate to the NBA game.

Barnani - pfft. Pick a soft, 7-foot European permineter player at No. 1 and you get what you deserve. Bargnani is the anti-Oden. He's the worst rebounding 7-footer since Brad Sellers, is far from an intimidating defensive presence and stands around on the perminter on offense jacking up (and missing) 3-pointers. Thanks god David Stern instituted the minimum age requirement prior to the 2006 draft, or Toronto would have ended up with Oden.

Bogut isn't nearly the athlete Oden is. He makes Kevin Love look fast and agile. After two years of college and a very productive sophomore season, Bogut was still a controversial selection as the No. 1 over all pick in the 2005 draft. Most scouts thought ne'd be a solid, but unspectacular pro due to his limited athleticism. The scouts were right. Bogut is a very solid player, but will never be a star - and was never projected to be one.

Oden was on the scouts' radar and projected as a future No. 1 over all pick before he even started his sophomore season of high scholl ball - before he lead his high school squad to their 1st of three consecutive state championships, began dominating the AAU circuit and the high profile camps. Five players from the 2007 NCAA champisonship game were selected in the top 9 spots in the 2007 NBA draft - and a total of nine players from that game made NBA rosters for the 2007-08 season. And of those players, Greg Oden was CLEARLY the best player on the floor during that game. He abused Florida's front line of Al Horford (3rd pick in the draft and 2nd in ROY voting), Joakim Noah and Chris Richards - and he still wasn't 100% recovered from the wrist injury on his shoting hand. 

Comparing a player of Oden's athleticism, talent and accomplishments to guys like Olowokandi and Kwame Brown is beyond laughable. There's a reason Oden was the obvious choice as the No. 1 over all pick in a VERY good draft and guys like Kandiman and Kwame were questionable picks in much weaker drafts.

BNM


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## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

Well, even I, a Laker fan and huge Bynum enthusist thinks that Bynum as #3 is a bit high. 

In the author's defense, and to counter any "Bynum only got 13/10 in 30 games" rhetoric, I would ask for you to look at his numbers in late Dec and Jan right before he got injured. His numbers were much better and his performances dominating. At the start of the season Bynum was splitting time with Kwame Brown and just wasnt getting the chances to show what he could do. People judge Bynum based on what he was doing right when he got injured because this was really the only significant playing time he had gotten and was really having a "break out year."

So in essence, that is why I believe Bynum is ranked too high at #3, Oden is appropriate at #8, 

Shaq at #4 is just ridiculous. I think Kaman, Biedrins and Okur are too low


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## stupendous (Feb 17, 2003)

That's just a weird list. I don't even consider several of those players to be "centers." A lot of power forwards in my mind. Sure, they all can spend some time at center, but I don't think that list is a very good representation of true centers.


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## stupendous (Feb 17, 2003)

I mean, based on the other types of players there, Amare Stoudemire's absence is glaring.


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## BlazerFan22 (Jul 4, 2006)

stupendous said:


> That's just a weird list. I don't even consider several of those players to be "centers." A lot of power forwards in my mind. Sure, they all can spend some time at center, but I don't think that list is a very good representation of true centers.


Yep I agree. Rasheed Wallace and Jermaine O'Neal should not have even made the list. I bet this guy thinks of Channing Frye as a center.


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## HispanicCausinPanic (Jul 2, 2005)

STAT doesn't play center anymore since the arrival of Shaq.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

BlazerFan22 said:


> Yep I agree. Rasheed Wallace and *Jermaine O'Neal* should not have even made the list. I bet this guy thinks of Channing Frye as a center.


:eek8:......Jermaine is one of the better "centers" in the league bro, especially when it comes to defense....


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Boob-No-More said:


> Please, you're just hurting your own position with such ridiculous arguments. NONE of those guys were considered future No. 1 picks before their sophomore season in high school. They were all highly questionable and questioned No. 1 picks at the time they were selected.


How does that weaken my position @ all? I was saying, just becuase he was a #1 pick doesnt mean that it's likely he will be a top 3 player @ his position, as a rookie. Those guys were just examples of "big time" HS and college players who are just average/below average pros. Honestly, being a top 3 player as a rookie is just extremely rare. LeBron was the closest and I dont even know if he was better than guys like TMac/Dirk/Peirce/ & Vince. Regardless of if he puts up big #'s, it is still highley unlikely that he is top 3 Center. 



> Oden was on the scouts' radar and projected as a future No. 1 over all pick before he even started his sophomore season of high scholl ball - before he lead his high school squad to their 1st of three consecutive state championships, began dominating the AAU circuit and the high profile camps. Five players from the 2007 NCAA champisonship game were selected in the top 9 spots in the 2007 NBA draft - and a total of nine players from that game made NBA rosters for the 2007-08 season. And of those players, Greg Oden was CLEARLY the best player on the floor during that game. He abused Florida's front line of Al Horford (3rd pick in the draft and 2nd in ROY voting), Joakim Noah and Chris Richards - and he still wasn't 100% recovered from the wrist injury on his shoting hand.


He didn't really abuse Horford or Noah @ all in the 1st game, and in the championship game he got away with alot fouls on D that the UF players were getting called for on the other end. It was more of the UF players playing not get into deep foul trouble, and then getting mugged on the other end. I watched that game and the officiating was VERY one sided, protecting Oden. He played good, but I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket. In the summer league, he was racking up fouls like none-other. Like I said, let me see him in a pre-season game or something at least.



> Comparing a player of Oden's athleticism, talent and accomplishments to guys like Olowokandi and Kwame Brown is beyond laughable. There's a reason Oden was the obvious choice as the No. 1 over all pick in a VERY good draft and guys like Kandiman and Kwame were questionable picks in much weaker drafts.
> 
> BNM


Never did I compare any part of Odens game to Olowakandi or Kwame Brown. I said #1 pick hype, doesn't justify saying he will be a top 3 center as of this year. You guys are so quick to take offense tho, that you blindly argue against things that i would agree with u on.


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## BlazerFan22 (Jul 4, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> :eek8:......Jermaine is one of the better "centers" in the league bro, especially when it comes to defense....


I just don't think of him as a center. I think of Jermaine more of a PF. If Buck Williams played in the NBA today he might be considered a center to.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Your right. I made ALL of those stats up. Please, give me a damn break son you must just be mad cuz u ran out of points to debate or something, but dont act like I just made the **** up when all of the stats are on NBA.com for everyone to see. You point to FT%, 1 more ppg, & 1 more apg, like thats the be-all end-all of a more productive player, and then say I just made my points up when I refuse to acknoledge those as the only determining factors in the discussion. I gave my reasons for why I believe what I believe, and to disagree is one thing, but you saying I made my stats up and distorted them is laughable. Whatever man, You seem like the one who has made up your mind and refuse to listin to an outside opinion, as u shun anything that isn't directly in line with you or ur logic as "made-up" & "distorted".... Just take a L and move on to fight another day.


Sorry but I misread one of your lines in the post with the percentages... combined with the earlier out of nowhere remarks like the weight thing and it seemed you were truly winging it. 

I think do think it's funny how you keep claiming victory in this as you're nowhere close. The stats *are* about even and as the old truism goes, they don't tell the whole story. Ming and Howard are completely different players with different roles who of course get their stats in different conferences. Howard gets his in the Leastern conference. And the biggest statistical difference in any category of these two is FT% 

Also as I've already alluded, you can never win this argument because, since it's relatively close on paper, it's subjective (like a favorite ice cream flavor!). I'm choosing the guy with the tremendous stats who isn't a liability with the game on the line. One of the things I really like a guy to produce is victories and NBA games tend to come down to the wire... especially big games. Also having a FT shooting liability like Howard makes the end of big games so tedious and drawn out as the opposing coach always goes for the Hack-a... it's all commercials and free throws instead of hoops... enjoy that for me will ya son! And remember this too, though this is really pretty much a pick your favorite flavor... unlike you I don't have a rooting interest/I'm just calling it like I see it.

btw... pretty funny that you point to Dwight getting to the line more. The guy guarding Ming tries not to foul him.

STOMP


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> He didn't really abuse Horford or Noah @ all in the 1st game, and in the championship game he got away with alot fouls on D that the UF players were getting called for on the other end. It was more of the UF players playing not get into deep foul trouble, and then getting mugged on the other end. I watched that game and the officiating was VERY one sided, protecting Oden. He played good, but I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket.


just a wild guess that you were rooting for the Gators?

STOMP


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## OdenRoyLMA2 (May 23, 2008)

STOMP said:


> just a wild guess that you were rooting for the Gators?
> 
> STOMP


Naw, just rooting against Oden. haha


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

STOMP said:


> just a wild guess that you were rooting for the Gators?
> 
> STOMP


Um, did you actually watch the game.....Or did you just look @ a boxscore and some highlights.... And how the hell did the dude foul out of a damn summer league game(with a 10 foul limit, mind you) and then get 9 fouls in the next?? It doesn't matter who I was rooting for, the gators won so im not even sour over it, but he did get away with alot of tick-tack **** that they were calling against UF, because if not, the game wouldn't have even been close. Believe me or dont believe me, I know what I saw. Some stuff is just apparent, and he got exposed in the summer league when the refs weren't protecting his ***. Like I said, let me see him in a pre-season game or something before I give him a damn crown or some ****. What I've seen soo far is just, meh. Good, but i'm not in aww... Maybe he will change that, but as of now, im not giving him no benifit of no doubt.


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## OdenRoyLMA2 (May 23, 2008)

Blue Magic said:


> Um, did you actually watch the game.....Or did you just look @ a boxscore and some highlights.... And how the hell did the dude foul out of a damn summer league game(with a 10 foul limit, mind you) and then get 9 fouls in the next?? It doesn't matter who I was rooting for, the gators won so im not even sour over it, but he did get away with alot of tick-tack **** that they were calling against UF, because if not, the game wouldn't have even been close. Believe me or dont believe me, I know what I saw. Some stuff is just apparent, and he got exposed in the summer league when the refs weren't protecting his ***. Like I said, let me see him in a pre-season game or something before I give him a damn crown or some ****. What I've seen soo far is just, meh. Good, but i'm not in aww... Maybe he will change that, but as of now, im not giving him no benifit of no doubt.


What's with this massive animosity you have against Greg Oden? So much that you feel the need to consistently troll our board in attempt to cool off our expectations of him.

Are you afraid he may end up being better than your boy D12 or something?


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> *Um, did you actually watch the game*.....Or did you just look @ a boxscore and some highlights.... And how the hell did the dude foul out of a damn summer league game(with a 10 foul limit, mind you) and then get 9 fouls in the next?? It doesn't matter who I was rooting for, the gators won so im not even sour over it, but he did get away with alot of tick-tack **** that they were calling against UF, because if not, the game wouldn't have even been close. Believe me or dont believe me, I know what I saw. Some stuff is just apparent, and he got exposed in the summer league when the refs weren't protecting his ***. Like I said, let me see him in a pre-season game or something before I give him a damn crown or some ****. What I've seen soo far is just, meh. Good, but i'm not in aww... Maybe he will change that, but as of now, im not giving him no benifit of no doubt.


yes I did watch the game... see how easy it is to answer a question! You're chatting hoops with someone in the off-season, what sort of person would do that? A casual type fan or a die-hard? I watch as much of the tourney, NBA playoffs, and the regular seasons of Pro and college hoops that I can as it's been my fav sport for my whole life. Again, I didn't have a rooting interest in that game and boy did we see things differently... I'm noticing a trend here.

drawing any conclusions from Greg's summer league seems odd... you do know he was having problems breathing right? They had to take his tonsils out.

You're free to disagree with my opinions, but the condescending bleep that you keep throwing out towards those who might disagree with you isn't going to fly around here for long. I'd knock off the _"son"_ and _"friend"_ bleep as well unless your intention to come off as a used car salesman. 

STOMP


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

STOMP said:


> Sorry but I misread one of your lines in the post with the percentages... combined with the earlier out of nowhere remarks like the weight thing and it seemed you were truly winging it.


The weight thing was in reference with Oden in HS. You said he shot FT's @ 80% in HS, well Dwight shot FT's @ like 70% in HS. Well see how that translates with the added weight, and how his overall game will translate. Dwight's game from HS to now is drastically different, as some experts even projected Dwight as a potentially a SF out of HS.



> I think do think it's funny how you keep claiming victory in this as you're nowhere close. The stats *are* about even and as the old truism goes, they don't tell the whole story. Ming and Howard are completely different players with different roles who of course get their stats in different conferences. Howard gets his in the Leastern conference. And the biggest statistical difference in any category of these two is FT%


The argument was based on who was *more productive*. All you basically got is FT%, but everything else is pretty much a toss-up or points to Dwight in terms of efficiency AND production.



> Also as I've already alluded, you can never win this argument because, since it's relatively close on paper, it's subjective (like a favorite ice cream flavor!). I'm choosing the guy with the tremendous stats who isn't a liability with the game on the line. One of the things I really like a guy to produce is victories and NBA games tend to come down to the wire... especially big games. Also having a FT shooting liability like Howard makes the end of big games so tedious and drawn out as the opposing coach always goes for the Hack-a... it's all commercials and free throws instead of hoops... enjoy that for me will ya son! And remember this too, though this is really pretty much a pick your favorite flavor... unlike you I don't have a rooting interest/I'm just calling it like I see it.


I will enjoy Dwight, but still, how is Yao "more" productive? More points doesnt directly equal better production, as I have already explained. And what series' has Yao won with his clutch FT's...in the big games...when it matters?? Oh wait thats right, they choked up against Utah in '07.... eace:


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> Please, you're just hurting your own position with such ridiculous arguments. NONE of those guys were considered future No. 1 picks before their sophomore season in high school. They were all highly questionable and questioned No. 1 picks at the time they were selected.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I encourage you to actually watch a Bucks game. Bogut can run the floor and is a better-than-average athlete for a 7 footer.

And talk about revisionist history... Bogut was not a "controversial" #1 selection... the general perception was that it was either Bogut or Marvin Williams going #1... neither one of those selections would have been controversial at the time.

Edit to add: Blue Magic lumping him in with those busts was where this thing got started down a bad path...


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

STOMP said:


> yes I did watch the game... see how easy it is to answer a question! You're chatting hoops with someone in the off-season, what sort of person would do that? A casual type fan or a die-hard? I watch as much of the tourney, NBA playoffs, and the regular seasons of Pro and college hoops that I can as it's been my fav sport for my whole life. Again, I didn't have a rooting interest in that game and boy did we see things differently... I'm noticing a trend here.
> 
> drawing any conclusions from Greg's summer league seems odd... you do know he was having problems breathing right? They had to take his tonsils out.
> 
> ...


LMAO..... just curious, why do u say bleep so dang much? That is halarious, i might have to steal that one from u.... :lol:


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Dornado said:


> I encourage you to actually watch a Bucks game. Bogut can run the floor and is a better-than-average athlete for a 7 footer.
> 
> And talk about revisionist history... Bogut was not a "controversial" #1 selection... the general perception was that it was either Bogut or Marvin Williams going #1... neither one of those selections would have been controversial at the time.
> 
> Edit to add: Blue Magic lumping him in with those busts was where this thing got started down a bad path...


Wasnt implying that Bogut was a bust. I think he is a solid big and better than guys like Kaman who get overhyped, but he isnt anything spectacular for being a #1 pick tho. He's right in that same boat with Emeka Okafor. And also Oden was somewhat a controversial #1 as well. Some people legitimately thought that KD was worthy of #1, so Oden wasnt technichally undisputed.....just playing devils advocate here. :biggrin:


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> I will enjoy Dwight, but still, how is Yao "more" productive? More points doesnt directly equal better production, as I have already explained. And what series' has Yao won with his clutch FT's...in the big games...when it matters?? Oh wait thats right, they choked up against Utah in '07.... eace:


I'm sure you'll enjoy Dwight, but off course it was the hack-a-thons/Free Throw-fests that I was speaking of. Enjoy a weeks worth of commercials for me. 

I've laid out how I think Ming not having a glaring achilles heal weak spot like DH does with FTs is a legit basis for my better performer preference and I can't help you if this isn't easily understood. While Howard does have two relatively significant statistical advantages to Ming's one, FG% and Rebounding are far from weaknesses for YM. Dwight is a liability at the end of games. Ming is a plus throughout and a major asset when the game is in the balance. This seems fairly strait-forward.

Also consider... while DH does shoot a higher percentage, Ming generates much of his 51% from outside the low block... IMO he and KG are the two top high post players in the league. Effective high post play opens up the interior of a Big for the rest of the Rockets to exploit. 

It's a team game and the goal isn't stats, it's to win

STOMP


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Andrew Bynum is the best center in the universe... I should know, Im from planet Zorlac


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## Hector (Nov 15, 2004)

If the author had taken the PFs out of the list, Przybilla might have made the Top 20.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> How does that weaken my position @ all? I was saying, just becuase he was a #1 pick doesnt mean that it's likely he will be a top 3 player @ his position, as a rookie. Those guys were just examples of "big time" HS and college players who are just average/below average pros. Honestly, being a top 3 player as a rookie is just extremely rare. LeBron was the closest and I dont even know if he was better than guys like TMac/Dirk/Peirce/ & Vince. Regardless of if he puts up big #'s, it is still highley unlikely that he is top 3 Center.


Nice strawman. Please show me where I said Oden should be considered a top 3 center before he plays his 1st NBA game. I didn't. You're the one who started mentioning Oden as a top 3 center. You created a ridiculous opposing argument just so you could shoot it down and "prove" you are right.

The difference between Oden and the other No. 1 big man picks you tried to lump him in with is that there a very strong chance Oden will eventually become a top 3 center. The others never were and never will be. Again, you made up a ridiculous argument against Oden just so you could "win". 



Blue Magic said:


> He didn't really abuse Horford or Noah @ all in the 1st game, and in the championship game he got away with alot fouls on D that the UF players were getting called for on the other end. It was more of the UF players playing not get into deep foul trouble, and then getting mugged on the other end. I watched that game and the officiating was VERY one sided, protecting Oden. He played good, but I wouldn't put all my eggs in that basket. In the summer league, he was racking up fouls like none-other. Like I said, let me see him in a pre-season game or something at least.


Well, I did watch that entire game and what I saw was a man among boys. He constantly abused the older, more experienced Florida players in the low post in spite of often being double and even occasionally triple teamed. And he did this while not being 100% healthy.

You do realize that Tim Duncan stunk in summer league, don't you? Come-on, it's summer league. You can't really use that as any indication of future success. Adam Morrison looked pretty darn good in summer league. Qyntel Woods dominated in summer league.



Blue Magic said:


> Never did I compare any part of Odens game to Olowakandi or Kwame Brown. I said #1 pick hype, doesn't justify saying he will be a top 3 center as of this year. You guys are so quick to take offense tho, that you blindly argue against things that i would agree with u on.


No, we're quick to call BS when we see it. You make up ridiculous strawman arguments just so you can then shoot them down and "win" the debate. You were the first one to mention Oden as a top 3 center. The only other person to even respond made some flippant remark about Bynum being top 3 while only averaging 13/10 for 35 games. Other than that you're the only one here arguing that Oden should/shouldn't be a top 3 center before he plays a single NBA game.

BNM


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Boob-No-More said:


> Nice strawman. Please show me where I said Oden should be considered a top 3 center before he plays his 1st NBA game. I didn't. You're the one who started mentioning Oden as a top 3 center. You created a ridiculous opposing argument just so you could shoot it down and "prove" you are right.
> 
> The difference between Oden and the other No. 1 big man picks you tried to lump him in with is that there a very strong chance Oden will eventually become a top 3 center. The others never were and never will be. Again, you made up a ridiculous argument against Oden just so you could "win".
> 
> ...


You're right. I just pulled all of that top 3 *bleep* out of my *bleep*. 



Elton said:


> Oden should rocket up this list in short order, given that he plays most of the games of the season. He will be *at least* #3 midway through the season. *He's just that much of a dominating presence.*


Try again buddy. Only reason I even jumped in this discussion from the get go was becuz of THAT rediculous statement. I didn't agree with it, so I just made a breif comment. Then all of a sudden, everyone starts jumping all over me like what I said was rediculous and it's already some foregone conclusion that Oden will be a top 3 center midway through the year, because among other things, he was being hyped as a Freshman in HS or some *bleep*. MJ was cut as a Freshman in HS, so that dont mean *bleep* to me. We're talking about the NBA. How does that guy know how "dominating" he will be as a rookie when he hasn't even played one game yet, and the summer league games he did play, he didn't even dominate.. 

I dont know what you guys are even trying to argue about, cuz my only dispute was based on Elton's post about "*at least* top 3 midway through the season", until every one decided to attack me for not bowing down to "the chosen one". So no BNM, I did NOT make that *bleep* up. Like I said, let me just at least see a pre-season game before I can give him an accurate projection, is all im saying. You blazers fans are quick to take offense tho. Im not against Oden. I want to like the guy, but Im just a bit skeptical until I see him suit it up in the league. I think we be good, but how good? That's what I need him to show me.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Blue Magic, when you insult Oden you insult these Blazers fans hope of a 'ship :biggrin:

Lakers fans have had only 7 months to talk up Bynum in their head...Now double that time and thats what you have when you talk to Blazer fans :biggrin:


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## BlazerFan22 (Jul 4, 2006)

This article should not even be labled "Top 20 Centers." It really should be labled "Top 20 big men." There are to many issues with the C\PF position nowadays.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

BlazerFan22 said:


> This article should not even be labled "Top 20 Centers." It really should be labled "Top 20 big men." There are to many issues with the C\PF position nowadays.


Great point. Personally, I think they should re-name the positions. You've got "The Man" and "The Goon":

The Man: Generally should be a 20/10 guy and your franchise player. May be a great defender or may not. You'll never really know how good a defender he is because he's too valuable in other areas to ever be stuck guarding the other teams' "The Man." 
Examples: Duncan, Randolph, Brand, Amare, Yao, Howard, etc. 
Exception that proves the rule: Kevin Garnett

The Goon: Once back in high school The Goon had dreams of being The Man, but then realized he'd have to be able to shoot the ball, if only from 5 feet. Realized that there aren't a lot of other jobs that pay absurdly tall men 7 figures, and decided to "subjugate his game" (whatever that means) to stand in front of good players and be really tall and rebound and not get in The Man's way on offense. Good Goons maybe have a jump shot (Camby) or even three point range (Okur) or the ability to pass (Miller), but all of them should know their place. Their place being not to whine when The Man on their team gets credited for out-performing the other team's Man. 
Examples: Przybilla, Ben Wallace, pretty much every Sonic big man between Kemp and Durant

I realize "Goon" has negative connotations from hockey, and so it might not be the best term. Most NBA Goons aren't going out trying to injure people (although that can be a career asset if you are good at it). Somehow, the name "The Mutombo" just seemed too dignified for the job, and "The Boumtje" didn't seem dignified enough. If people really hate "The Goon" I could consider going with "The Dudley." 

Interestingly enough, I have a really hard time identifying which of Oden and Aldridge will be the Goon on our team. Aldridge seems destined to be a 20 ppg scorer, but Oden has the whole once-in-a-generation tag on him. Not often you see two big men both trying to be The Man. It's generally assumed that there just aren't that many "The Man" types out there. But it could be there's just not enough ball.


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## Elton (May 26, 2007)

Blue Magic said:


> I dont know what you guys are even trying to argue about, cuz my only dispute was based on Elton's post about "*at least* top 3 midway through the season", until every one decided to attack me for not bowing down to "the chosen one". So no BNM, I did NOT make that *bleep* up. Like I said, let me just at least see a pre-season game before I can give him an accurate projection, is all im saying. You blazers fans are quick to take offense tho. Im not against Oden. I want to like the guy, but Im just a bit skeptical until I see him suit it up in the league. I think we be good, but how good? That's what I need him to show me.


I still stand by that statement. The center position in the NBA is just about the weakest it's been in decades. Even though the list is arguably ridiculous, look at who's in front of him before Bynum. A bunch of converted PF's and a old jalopy Diesel. 

I know it sounded homerish to predict his rapid ascent in the rankings of NBA centers as a rookie, but I think he's got the goods. That doesn't mean that I *know* he's going to impact the league like Shaq did right out of the gate--it's just a prediction. Hugely optimistic? Of course, but not entirely unreasonable either.

Oden doesn't have to score much to prove his value. He's a physical freak with extremely good defensive instincts and good skills for a center. 

Here are some of the reasons I think he will succeed in his rookie year:

--He's a semi-rook. The dude's had a year to scout the league and adjust to the lifestyle.

--He's already got all the size and strength he needs (and some) at the position. 

--He has Joel Przybilla to bang with in practice. 

--He won't be the first option on offense. No pressure to score like Howard

--He's a true center, not a converted PF

--He's a decent FT shooter

--Good hands

--Good footwork

--Good attitude

--And last but not least, he's very marketable, just like Howard. It's no coincidence that he'll be on national television on Oct 28 and we all know that star power=more calls. Maybe not right off the bat as a rookie, but he will get his share of the good side of the whistle. 

Incidentally, I think Howard/Oden is going to be the hot center rivalry that the league hasn't seen since Olajuwon/Ewing. 

Of course, only time will tell now.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Elton said:


> Incidentally, I think Howard/Oden is going to be the hot center rivalry that the league hasn't seen since Olajuwon/Ewing.


Actually, I think Olajuwon/David Robinson or maybe Olajuwon/Young Shaq may be a better analogy.

But, as you say, time will tell.

BNM


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

mook said:


> I realize "Goon" has negative connotations from hockey, and so it might not be the best term. Most NBA Goons aren't going out trying to injure people (although that can be a career asset if you are good at it).


My friend and I, years ago, used to call them "gumps." Fairly insulting, but the idea of a big guy who isn't really very skilled.



> Interestingly enough, I have a really hard time identifying which of Oden and Aldridge will be the Goon on our team. Aldridge seems destined to be a 20 ppg scorer, but Oden has the whole once-in-a-generation tag on him. Not often you see two big men both trying to be The Man. It's generally assumed that there just aren't that many "The Man" types out there. But it could be there's just not enough ball.


Oden and Alridge are both "The Man" types. Oden is simply so much more The Man. The great thing is that Oden looks like a low post beast while Aldridge has a nice high post game. So they should actually complement each other beautifully on offense, without getting in each other's way.

And on defense, it should be a dangerous paint for opponents.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Boob-No-More said:


> Actually, I think Olajuwon/David Robinson or maybe Olajuwon/Young Shaq may be a better analogy.


I see Oden and Howard more as Robinson/Mourning. Which wasn't a "rivalry," but I think those players are the best comparisons for the players.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Elton said:


> I still stand by that statement. The center position in the NBA is just about the weakest it's been in decades. Even though the list is arguably ridiculous, look at who's in front of him before Bynum. A bunch of converted PF's and a old jalopy Diesel.
> 
> I know it sounded homerish to predict his rapid ascent in the rankings of NBA centers as a rookie, but I think he's got the goods. That doesn't mean that I *know* he's going to impact the league like Shaq did right out of the gate--it's just a prediction. Hugely optimistic? Of course, but not entirely unreasonable either.
> 
> ...


Dwight Howard is a converted PF too, so I dont get where u were going with that whole converted PF thing as if that makes someone a lesser calibre player. And that list is garbage. The list they made didn't even have half of the good players on it, so saying he is top3, going by that list, isnt even much. Like I said before tho, I just have a hard time seeing him outperform the like's of TD, Amare, Al Jefferson, J. Oneal, S. Oneal(you know he will step it up for the Oden game, lol) and even a few of the other upper-echelon centers/convertd PF's, as just a rookie. Top ten this year? sure. But top 3?? It just seems a bit far-fetched to me, but we shall see tho.



> --And last but not least, he's very marketable, just like Howard. It's no coincidence that he'll be on national television on Oct 28 *and we all know that star power=more calls.* Maybe not right off the bat as a rookie, but he will get his share of the good side of the whistle.
> 
> Incidentally, I think Howard/Oden is going to be the hot center rivalry that the league hasn't seen since Olajuwon/Ewing.
> 
> Of course, only time will tell now.


Oh, believe me, I know that his star power=more calls.... I already witnessed the National Championship game, ... 

But he will be a good player tho, it just takes, time. Expecting him to be on Dwight and Yao's level in the top 3 as just a rookie is just asking to be let down tho imo.....:starwars:


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