# OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown (merged!)



## giusd

*OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Since i have league pass i watched the knicks GS game today and it was very interesting. EC basically got benched (along with several other starters) in the 2nd half for playing awful defense. At that point of the game the knicks had been losing most of the game and LB went with nate, JC, azera, Frye, and david lee. 

Three rookies, a 2nd year, and JC. This was the lineup that got them back into the game. He made the vets sit and watch while the young players played hard and really were working on the defensive end. When they just ran out of gas Brown put the starters back in with 6 minues left. When the vets were taken out they were down like 8 pts and when Brown put them back in the knicks had a 3 pt lead. The starters quickly played the same weak game they have played all year and the knicks lost again.

Larry Brown looked really upset. This team of veterans looks awful. They are 0 - 3 and have lost to three teams that likely will not make the playoffs (OK GS may make the playoffs but they didnt really look that great tonight, and if rlucus is reading yes he is right Davis is still injured and it shows, GS will play better when he is 100%). The knicks are 0 - 2 at home and still have a very hard first two months of the season. This team is not only heading for the lotto my guess is the bulls get one of the first 6 or 7 picks.

I think all the talk about how this team has re-tooled is correct. Re-tooled for the worst.

david


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## bullet

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

2006 draft 1st overall pick anyone???

I also think Lees and Fryes decent numbers will cost Eddy and James in PT , same with Nate/Ariza for Jamal. 

And thats 'No Darko' Larry Brown playing all those Rooks , I guess he really sees no other option.


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## nybullsfan

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Knicks can actually be a talented team its just i feel they got the wrong coach, larry brown is a old school coach that is ment for certain teams (pistons/jazz/bulls/grizzlies) that play the right way. I think Thomas would have never thouigh brown would be the coach at the start of the offseason, and had brown been there he would have gotten player that match his theory of basketball.


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## lougehrig

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Curry's a fraud. As is Crawford. The Knicks were so desperate for sound young potential, they overpaid these players. They are average players at best. Backups in this league. You can't specialize in one thing and expect to be an All-Star. Curry's early offense and Crawfords occasional hot streak are things you use as a 7th or 8th man off the bench. Simple as that.


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## ChiBron

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

LB's a terrible offensive coach. There's no excuse for the Knicks looking so bad on O to start the season.


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## lougehrig

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The problem is, is there are absolutely zero efficient scorers on the Knicks. Marbury is decently efficient. Q is a low percentage shoote, Crawford is a super low percentage shooter, Curry is a black hole who shoots a high percentage, but has way too many turnovers. They don't have any solid offensive rebounders for easy points. They don't get alot of steals for easy points. These are NBA players. 

It's not college. LB can't create a system to overcome these selfish type of players.


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## nybullsfan

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Knicks really need a fast break coach like Frank or D'Antonio (or one that focuses on offense, most knicks players are offensive minded), also Marbury is the exact opposite in what brown sees in a pg he would prefer pgs that are smart decision makers (snow/billups). which is why there were rumors of bringin in snow, but oh well not bulls problem lol


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## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

You know what? The Bulls started 0-9 last year. They turned out OK.

Brown has a reputation for taking a while to get his guys to click. I don't know what's going to happen with this group -- I mean the Starburys of the world may be just plain uncoachable -- but I think its way too early to call the Knicks/Brown experiment a wash. Lets check back at the end of December and see how things have (or haven't) gelled. Until then, we need to cool our jets a bit.


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## giusd

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I dont think it is totally fare to put all the blame on larry brown. IT put this team together. 150 million in salary. James is awful and is going to get 5 million a year to sit on the bench. JC is done. In 5 months he will wish skiles was his coach. I mean LB has no interest in players like JC. He confidence is already shot and the NY press is going too ride him all year. IT will trade him within a year or so.

The real question is who leave first brown or IT?

david


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## BG7

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Rudy Gay's getting closer by the day!


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## lougehrig

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Check out the Knicks salaries for the next few seasons. It's absolutely astonishing how "stuck" they are for the next 7 years.

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

I'm glad the Knicks were around to take Curry and Crawford off our hands and allow us to dump salaries.


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## VincentVega

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Jamal Crawford has looked absolutely terrible so far this season. His shot selection seems to have actually gotten worse since he was in Chicago.

On a related note, does Jalen Rose even care anymore?


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## lougehrig

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



VincentVega said:


> Jamal Crawford has looked absolutely terrible so far this season. His shot selection seems to have actually gotten worse since he was in Chicago.
> 
> On a related note, does Jalen Rose even care anymore?


Yah Rose is my complete idol. He doesn't care and makes everyone around him not care. I almost guarantee that's what happened to Curry and Crawford. They idolized Rose who was making his $16M per season and said to themselves they wanted to be just like that. They still are. Luckily contracts have been more sane lately and this type of nonsense is working it's way out of the NBA. Unless you are the Knicks and you sign everybody to huge overpaid contracts. Curry for $60M? That's almost as bad as Houston for $100M. Haha.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



lougehrig said:


> Yah Rose is my complete idol. He doesn't care and makes everyone around him not care. I almost guarantee that's what happened to Curry and Crawford. They idolized Rose who was making his $16M per season and said to themselves they wanted to be just like that. They still are. Luckily contracts have been more sane lately and this type of nonsense is working it's way out of the NBA. Unless you are the Knicks and you sign everybody to huge overpaid contracts. Curry for $60M? That's almost as bad as Houston for $100M. Haha.



Its the Bizarro-K4H!


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## futuristxen

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Meh. You had to figure the Knicks down for a slow start. It takes awhile for Larry to get his system going. They'll be the team in the second half of the season you don't want to play...similiar to *gasp* the Bulls from last year.

Losing to the Warriors is no shame. We play them next, no?


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## ztect

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Brown's coaching years and experience at Kansas may help him more 
with the Knicks than any of his years coaching teams in the NBA.

Larry has a lot of extremely athletically gifted players who have
incredible play ground offensive skills but who lack any real basketball IQ.


His current cast is very young and hasn't learned what they would have
learned in a college program or a developmental league. His players don't
know the basics about blocking out, rotating to the ball, et cetera.

Brown is purportly a very good teacher. This Knick's team will see just
how good of a teacher he is, for with players like Q, Crawford and CUrry
he has his work cut out.

It will take a while for the Knicks to gell, but if they do, they will be a very difficult
team to match up against.


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## Machinehead

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

See he has all the talent but this group is a mob of mental pygmies 

Brown has bitten off more than he can chew 

I think he is going to fail and fail miserably 

And when it comes down to Coach v Players in this scenario.... well ...C"ya Larry .

Can see it coming like Mike Sweetney on a downhill tobaggin run with no brake rope


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## Machinehead

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

If he wants to win he shoud be starting :

Davis
Lee
Ariza
Marbury
Robinson

And then in order off the bench

Rose
Richardson
Frye
Barnes

10th and 11th men 

Curry
Crawford

Seriously 

Not hatin..just telling it how it is if you want to win games in NYC and you want to up the intellectual capital on the court to try and balance with the skill


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## lougehrig

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*




Machinehead said:


> If he wants to win he shoud be starting :
> 
> Davis
> Lee
> Ariza
> Marbury
> Robinson
> 
> And then in order off the bench
> 
> Rose
> Richardson
> Frye
> Barnes
> 
> 10th and 11th men
> 
> Curry
> Crawford
> 
> Seriously
> 
> Not hatin..just telling it how it is if you want to win games in NYC and you want to up the intellectual capital on the court to try and balance with the skill




EXACTLY. Anybody watching the games would agree with this post. It would be impossible not to agree.


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## yodurk

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I agree with TB#1. As glad as I am to see a slow start from the Knicks (for several reason which I've stated elsewhere), I am not counting them out until I really can gauge where they're at after 20 games or so. They have alot of talent, and at the very least they're playing LB's slow it down style of play. Almost all of their games since pre-season have been low-scoring and grind-it-out. As much as I hate to admit it, that will earn them some wins. What's funny is that we all expected quite the opposite, a fast paced high scoring type of team. I wonder if Brown is a bad fit as coach; a more creative mind like Mike D'Antoni would have this team putting up 110 pts a game, ala his Suns.


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## Machinehead

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Yeah Curry and Crawford will have their one night only appearances and when they have that occasional night..you got to ride them long 

And they will have that occasional night..hey even the sun shines on a dog's arse some days

But for reliance of regular output contributing to a winning record.

Next !


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## truebluefan

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I agree with tb#1. We went 0-9 and rebounded from there. Someone said JC is playing awful? Well, Gordon did too for those 9 games. The whole team did. 

I admit, this pleases me, but LB will get them going. Will it be this year? Maybe. Let's watch and see.


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## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I didn't see this coming.  

The Knicks are a terrible defensive team and a terrible rebounding team. Larry Brown is a great defensive coach, but he also had the best defensive frontcourt in the league by a huge margin. 

This team is bad, and Paxson robbed them blind by getting their pick.


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## BullSoxChicagosFinest

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

LOL, Curry got outplayed by their white draft pick who was activated today, Lee. The NY fans really hate Crawford right now too. I love Pax


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## knicksfan

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Machinehead said:


> If he wants to win he shoud be starting :
> 
> Davis
> Lee
> Ariza
> Marbury
> Robinson
> 
> And then in order off the bench
> 
> Rose
> Richardson
> Frye
> Barnes
> 
> 10th and 11th men
> 
> Curry
> Crawford
> 
> Seriously
> 
> Not hatin..just telling it how it is if you want to win games in NYC and you want to up the intellectual capital on the court to try and balance with the skill


You're very amusing with posts like this man. Lee at SF hes a post player not a 3. That's like saying " Oh Marbury is too selfish try playing AD at point guard" Just aint gonna work man.


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## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



knicksfan said:


> You're very amusing with posts like this man. Lee at SF hes a post player not a 3. That's like saying " Oh Marbury is too selfish try playing AD at point guard" Just aint gonna work man.


Actually he had Ariza at the three, Lee at the four, and Davis at the 5. Robinson and Marbury in the backcourt.


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## Frankensteiner

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The funny thing is that anyone with half a brain could see this coming from a mile away. Lazy defense and undisciplined offense will generally lead to loses.

But as DaBullz said, it's hard to defend against a team with so many guys who can go off for 25 points (even though not a single Knicks player has yet to reach the 25 point mark).  

I'm sure we won't hear from him on this until Hinrich has a bad game.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



BullSoxChicagosFinest said:


> LOL, Curry got outplayed by their white draft pick who was activated today, Lee. The NY fans really hate Crawford right now too. I love Pax


Gee, ok, I'll bite -- what does the _white_ thing have to do with anything?

Welcome to our boards, jackhole.


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## truebluefan

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Gee, ok, I'll bite -- what does the _white_ thing have to do with anything?
> 
> Welcome to our boards, jackhole.


Woe! I missed his remark entirely.


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## DaBullz

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Nobody mentions that Curry was in foul trouble and that's why he sat. He had 8 points in Q1.

Or that NY gave up a whopping 83 points and held GS to .397 FG%

Looks like their defense really does suck!


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## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



DaBullz said:


> Nobody mentions that Curry was in foul trouble and that's why he sat. He had 8 points in Q1.


That's his M.O.

Blazing offensive start, foul trouble, ineffective rest of game.

Come on, Ed. You are better than that.

Just do it.


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## DaBullz

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

...


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## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

In the two games where Curry played 16 minutes, the Knicks held their opponents to 86 and 83. In the game where he played 42 minutes and everyone was saying he had a great game, the Celtics scored 114 points. Speaks volumes. Curry's offense is overrated, but atleast it's on and off, his defense is pretty consistent. Consistently terrible, and the proof is in the pudding. Larry Brown is seeing this and it wouldn't surprise me at all if he started using Curry the best way he can be used, as a scoring spark in short spurts. The longer he is out there, the more of a liability he becomes.


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## futuristxen

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Machinehead said:


> If he wants to win he shoud be starting :
> 
> Davis
> Lee
> Ariza
> Marbury
> Robinson
> 
> And then in order off the bench
> 
> Rose
> Richardson
> Frye
> Barnes
> 
> 10th and 11th men
> 
> Curry
> Crawford
> 
> Seriously
> 
> Not hatin..just telling it how it is if you want to win games in NYC and you want to up the intellectual capital on the court to try and balance with the skill



Wow that's amazing. The Knicks must be badass. Curry was our starting center last year, and now the Knicks can put him as their 10th man off the bench.


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## VincentVega

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Jamal Crawford currently has an Efficiency Rating of +3.0.

Yikes.


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## Da Grinch

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



giusd said:


> Since i have league pass i watched the knicks GS game today and it was very interesting. EC basically got benched (along with several other starters) in the 2nd half for playing awful defense. At that point of the game the knicks had been losing most of the game and LB went with nate, JC, azera, Frye, and david lee.
> 
> Three rookies, a 2nd year, and JC. This was the lineup that got them back into the game. He made the vets sit and watch while the young players played hard and really were working on the defensive end. When they just ran out of gas Brown put the starters back in with 6 minues left. When the vets were taken out they were down like 8 pts and when Brown put them back in the knicks had a 3 pt lead. The starters quickly played the same weak game they have played all year and the knicks lost again.
> 
> Larry Brown looked really upset. This team of veterans looks awful. They are 0 - 3 and have lost to three teams that likely will not make the playoffs (OK GS may make the playoffs but they didnt really look that great tonight, and if rlucus is reading yes he is right Davis is still injured and it shows, GS will play better when he is 100%). The knicks are 0 - 2 at home and still have a very hard first two months of the season. This team is not only heading for the lotto my guess is the bulls get one of the first 6 or 7 picks.
> 
> I think all the talk about how this team has re-tooled is correct. Re-tooled for the worst.
> 
> david


i thought it was bad offense not bad defense.

the warriors shot .397 today.


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## Da Grinch

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



lougehrig said:


> EXACTLY. Anybody watching the games would agree with this post. It would be impossible not to agree.



i've seen all 3 games and i strongly disagree .


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## darlets

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

"New York will begin a six-game road trip on Wednesday in Portland. The Knicks play 13 of their first 19 games on the road."

Hmmmmm, this could get uglier before it gets better.


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## TRUTHHURTS

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



DaBullz said:


> Nobody mentions that Curry was in foul trouble and that's why he sat. He had 8 points in Q1.
> 
> Or that NY gave up a whopping 83 points and held GS to .397 FG%
> 
> Looks like their defense really does suck!



Yeah thats true 

The knicks defense has been realy good but there offense ,ft shooting, and turnovers have done them in .Its the price you pay in the transition to "playing the right way". We went through s similar situation last year with 3 rookies as well .


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## jbulls

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Sir Patchwork said:


> In the two games where Curry played 16 minutes, the Knicks held their opponents to 86 and 83. In the game where he played 42 minutes and everyone was saying he had a great game, the Celtics scored 114 points. Speaks volumes. Curry's offense is overrated, but atleast it's on and off, his defense is pretty consistent. Consistently terrible, and the proof is in the pudding. Larry Brown is seeing this and it wouldn't surprise me at all if he started using Curry the best way he can be used, as a scoring spark in short spurts. The longer he is out there, the more of a liability he becomes.


He's not Bill Russell, but we managed okay as a defense w/ him playing nearly 30 MPG last year.

In theory, if we'd kept Curry and he'd managed to play 35 MPG we could've had a starting center averaging 20 points a night to go along with one of the leagues best defenses.


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## narek

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



darlets said:


> "New York will begin a six-game road trip on Wednesday in Portland. The Knicks play 13 of their first 19 games on the road."
> 
> Hmmmmm, this could get uglier before it gets better.


Portland barely beat Atlanta for its first win after two bad losses. Wednesday's game may be very ugly, but interesting. They play the Lakers on that road trip, too. That'll get a lot of press.


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## ScottMay

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



jbulls said:


> He's not Bill Russell, but we managed okay as a defense w/ him playing nearly 30 MPG last year.
> 
> In theory, if we'd kept Curry and he'd managed to play 35 MPG we could've had a starting center averaging 20 points a night to go along with one of the leagues best defenses.


Actually, you don't even need to add the "in theory" part: Curry played the second-most minutes per game on the stoutest defensive unit in the NBA last year (if you go by FG% defense). It's a hugely meaningful point that the anti-Curry camp doesn't want to address (small wonder).

However, I am eagerly anticipating our new-and-improved Curryless defense to take effect. I am fully expecting sub .400 opponents' FG% and a strong run at the record for fewest points yielded in an NBA season. 

Those should not be considered unreasonable goals, imo, if you happen to subscribe to the theories that A. we play the best brand of defense of the game and B. we've unloaded one of the worst defenders in the league.


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## Machinehead

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



futuristxen said:


> Wow that's amazing. The Knicks must be badass. Curry was our starting center last year, and now the Knicks can put him as their 10th man off the bench.



My Pappy used to say your a product of the company you keep 

Meaning .. if your surrounded by quality you assume those traits ..if your surrounded by selfish jackers you tend to follow suit 

Eddy does not have any basketball IQ so he has to leverage off those around that have such qualities to be effective 

I always thought he was a bench scorer type anyway


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## bullsville

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> Actually, you don't even need to add the "in theory" part: Curry played the second-most minutes per game on the stoutest defensive unit in the NBA last year (if you go by FG% defense). It's a hugely meaningful point that the anti-Curry camp doesn't want to address (small wonder).


LMAO, the "anti-Curry camp" doesn't need to address that. I'm assuming they can see that Eddy isn't a good defender, like the rest of the league. The scouts, the coaches, the other players...

This complete reach is like saying that "Toni Kukoc played the third-most minutes on the greatest team ever (the 1995-96 Bulls that went 72-10)." The only 2 players who got more minutes are All-Time Top-50 in NBA history, Toni must be pretty close using that logic... 

:rotf: 



> However, I am eagerly anticipating our new-and-improved Curryless defense to take effect. I am fully expecting sub .400 opponents' FG% and a strong run at the record for fewest points yielded in an NBA season.
> 
> Those should not be considered unreasonable goals, imo, if you happen to subscribe to the theories that A. we play the best brand of defense of the game and B. we've unloaded one of the worst defenders in the league.


Man, I am loving this "the Knicks completely suck despite having a top-5 center" more than I thought.

Eddy has so far proven himself to be a zero on the difference-maker scale, so let's go mega-sarcastic trying to make Eddy look not-as-bad.

BTW, so far we are allowing our opponents (who are a combined 4-2) to shoot .407 from the field, so we aren't far from your sarcastic goal. And our opponents are shooting .125 from behind the arc.


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## ScottMay

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> LMAO, the "anti-Curry camp" doesn't need to address that. I'm assuming they can see that Eddy isn't a good defender, like the rest of the league. The scouts, the coaches, the other players...
> 
> This complete reach is like saying that "Toni Kukoc played the third-most minutes on the greatest team ever (the 1995-96 Bulls that went 72-10)." The only 2 players who got more minutes are All-Time Top-50 in NBA history, Toni must be pretty close using that logic...
> 
> :rotf:
> 
> 
> 
> Man, I am loving this "the Knicks completely suck despite having a top-5 center" more than I thought.
> 
> Eddy has so far proven himself to be a zero on the difference-maker scale, so let's go mega-sarcastic trying to make Eddy look not-as-bad.
> 
> BTW, so far we are allowing our opponents (who are a combined 4-2) to shoot .407 from the field, so we aren't far from your sarcastic goal. And our opponents are shooting .125 from behind the arc.


Your response is typical deflection and avoidance. No one's making the claim that Toni Kukoc is one of the greatest players of all time, nor is anyone making the claim that Eddy is a terrific individual defender.

The question, yet again, is how a team could be the best defensive unit in the league while giving so much playing time to the so-called worst individual defender in the National Basketball Association. 

And there's nothing sarcastic about my expectations for the Bulls' team defense. If you don't have the same goals, it says a lot about how much you truly believe in what you're writing here.


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## jbulls

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> LMAO, the "anti-Curry camp" doesn't need to address that. I'm assuming they can see that Eddy isn't a good defender, like the rest of the league. The scouts, the coaches, the other players...
> 
> This complete reach is like saying that "Toni Kukoc played the third-most minutes on the greatest team ever (the 1995-96 Bulls that went 72-10)." The only 2 players who got more minutes are All-Time Top-50 in NBA history, Toni must be pretty close using that logic...
> 
> :rotf:
> 
> 
> 
> Man, I am loving this "the Knicks completely suck despite having a top-5 center" more than I thought.
> 
> Eddy has so far proven himself to be a zero on the difference-maker scale, so let's go mega-sarcastic trying to make Eddy look not-as-bad.
> 
> BTW, so far we are allowing our opponents (who are a combined 4-2) to shoot .407 from the field, so we aren't far from your sarcastic goal. And our opponents are shooting .125 from behind the arc.


IMO the Knicks are bad (so far, anyway) because they're a poorly constructed team. It's not a direct reflection on Eddy Curry. I think Al Harrington's pretty good, regardless of the Hawks win total last year. Eddy Curry is a pretty good player. The Knicks aren't a very good team. Those two statements co-existing doesn't seem all that crazy to me.

Any kind of statistical analysis after 2 or 3 games of an NBA season is fairly meaningless, but the .125 defensive 3PT percentage number...how does that even come close to relating to Curry?


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## Da Grinch

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> LMAO, the "anti-Curry camp" doesn't need to address that. I'm assuming they can see that Eddy isn't a good defender, like the rest of the league. The scouts, the coaches, the other players...
> 
> This complete reach is like saying that "Toni Kukoc played the third-most minutes on the greatest team ever (the 1995-96 Bulls that went 72-10)." The only 2 players who got more minutes are All-Time Top-50 in NBA history, Toni must be pretty close using that logic...
> 
> :rotf:
> 
> 
> 
> Man, I am loving this "the Knicks completely suck despite having a top-5 center" more than I thought.
> 
> Eddy has so far proven himself to be a zero on the difference-maker scale, so let's go mega-sarcastic trying to make Eddy look not-as-bad.
> 
> BTW, so far we are allowing our opponents (who are a combined 4-2) to shoot .407 from the field, so we aren't far from your sarcastic goal. And our opponents are shooting .125 from behind the arc.



knicks opponents are shooting .422 against thus far.....i am not sure this everyone plays great defense in spite of curry is holding water just yet.


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## jbulls

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> LMAO, the "anti-Curry camp" doesn't need to address that. I'm assuming they can see that Eddy isn't a good defender, like the rest of the league. The scouts, the coaches, the other players...
> 
> This complete reach is like saying that "Toni Kukoc played the third-most minutes on the greatest team ever (the 1995-96 Bulls that went 72-10)." The only 2 players who got more minutes are All-Time Top-50 in NBA history, Toni must be pretty close using that logic...
> 
> :rotf:


Eh?

That's a heck of a distortion of the original argument. I do think you could infer from Kukoc's minutes on the 95-96 Bulls that he was at least an okay player, given that the team as a whole was very good. Just like you could infer from Curry's minutes on a top flight defensive team, that he was at least servicable defensively. Nobody's calling him the 2nd or 3rd best defender on last year's Bulls team.


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## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



jbulls said:


> In theory, if we'd kept Curry and he'd managed to play 35 MPG we could've had a starting center averaging 20 points a night to go along with one of the leagues best defenses.


By that same logic, we could stick Sweetney out there for 35 minutes with 4 great defenders and have a power forward who scores 20 a game and still have a great defense. That doesn't mean the defense is as good as it could be, and doesn't speak of the *team* offense. Skiles did use Curry very well, mainly off of seals, pick and rolls, and other situations where Curry didn't have to create for himself, he only had to finish. Curry is outstanding at finishing. I think Curry is very overrated as a back to the basket feed him the ball post player. The numbers back this up, most of his buckets last season were assisted, and most of his turnovers and such came from when he tried to create for himself. 

My standing on him is this. I would like to have Curry on the Bulls, the same way I like having Songaila or Nocioni on the team, but if one of those guys wanted the money the money that Curry did, well don't let the door hit you on the way out. Good players to have, but more as situational players who can give the team a boost when needed. You pay that kind of money to guys who can be impact players night in and night out regardless of the situation. You wouldn't see any top 15-20 player be taken out of a game because their liabilities are easily outweighing their strengths. So paying the guy like a top 15-20 player would be a big mistake. 

We'll see how the rest of his season plays out. If Larry Brown decides he is better fit as a spark scorer type roleplayer, I'll feel completely comfortable in my current standing with Curry. Looking at the first three games, Curry put up nice numbers in the game he played the most minutes, but they were closer to winning in the game he only played 16 minutes, and played better defense. He just isn't a big difference maker. He is a situational player and I'm thinking that Brown will use him like that.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Looking at the first three games, Curry put up nice numbers in the game he played the most minutes, but they were closer to winning in the game he only played 16 minutes, and played better defense.


I let it slide once, but not twice. If you're going to put so much stock in the Boston game and the 114 points yielded and the margin of loss, it'd be honoring the concepts of context and perspective to mention that it was an overtime game and that the game was tied at 96 at the end of regulation.



> He is a situational player and I'm thinking that Brown will use him like that.


The first point is debatable. The second isn't. Fouls have limited Curry's PT in the first three games, not Larry Brown. Brown wants to play Curry as many minutes as possible, and when he's in the game, Brown runs the offense through Curry.


----------



## Machinehead

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> . Fouls have limited Curry's PT in the first three games, not Larry Brown. Brown wants to play Curry as many minutes as possible,


Sounds a lot like the Mike Sweetney dilemna ..both when he was in New York and now that he is here in Chicago 

Shall have to wait for a more definitive burden of proof ..but whilst Sweetney is not as athletically gifted as Curry .. I do think he is a more complete player that has a better capacity to play within a more tightly structured team ( as ours is ) 

Given the direct comparatives ( of which Curry may end up higher up the statistical scale ) balanced out with my gut feel that Sweetney is better able to integrate into this team and provide game changing differences as Eddy Curry was occasionaly able to do ... for the strong liklihood that we will get a lottery pick from the Knicks this year ..and again in the following year ( with a pick swap scenario in the 1st round ) I believe time will judge that this was a boon for the Bulls .

We just don't realise yet 

The more I consider it with what was on offer ..its a no brainer


----------



## NYKBaller

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I'm just going to rant for a minute, I'm surprise that fans like yourselves, especially the bulls, would act like this. You guys started 0-9 and talking about us having a meltdown. You guys want to bump back year old threads where Ben Gordon was a bust after 6-10 games then midseason after a team "gels" and builds "chemistry" you guys got better.

It's been already 3 games and if you haven't notice we're playing defense and holding teams to low FG% and low scoring games. We're playing 13 man rotation if you believe that because Mo played one game and Lee played this game, once that rotation is limited to a usually 9 man slot, that'll be the team to go to war with. What happened to the Jazz that starte 4-0 and everyone was saying second round of playoffs? What happened to the Cavs last year had a fast start and missed the playoffs. This is a LONG season and once our HALL OF FAME coach figures this team out I have no doubt we'll be in the playoffs and have an allstar on the roster....


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> I let it slide once, but not twice. If you're going to put so much stock in the Boston game and the 114 points yielded and the margin of loss, it'd be honoring the concepts of context and perspective to mention that it was an overtime game and that the game was tied at 96 at the end of regulation.


Well, 96 is still 10-13 more points than their other losses. 



ScottMay said:


> The first point is debatable. The second isn't. Fouls have limited Curry's PT in the first three games, not Larry Brown. Brown wants to play Curry as many minutes as possible, and when he's in the game, Brown runs the offense through Curry.


This is debatable too, but since I'm pretty sure neither of us have Larry Brown's cell number we'll have to wait and see how he handles Curry the rest of the year. I find it hard to believe that Brown would hold Curry out with 4 fouls for the entire 4th quarter of a close game if he really wanted to play Curry as many minutes as possible.


----------



## Machinehead

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



NYKBaller said:


> I'm just going to rant for a minute, I'm surprise that fans like yourselves, especially the bulls, would act like this. You guys started 0-9 and talking about us having a meltdown. You guys want to bump back year old threads where Ben Gordon was a bust after 6-10 games then midseason after a team "gels" and builds "chemistry" you guys got better.
> 
> It's been already 3 games and if you haven't notice we're playing defense and holding teams to low FG% and low scoring games. We're playing 13 man rotation if you believe that because Mo played one game and Lee played this game, once that rotation is limited to a usually 9 man slot, that'll be the team to go to war with. What happened to the Jazz that starte 4-0 and everyone was saying second round of playoffs? What happened to the Cavs last year had a fast start and missed the playoffs. This is a LONG season and once our HALL OF FAME coach figures this team out I have no doubt we'll be in the playoffs and have an allstar on the roster....


I can't wait until your Hall of Fame Coach gets booted in the arse out of NYC

He's on a hiding to nothing


----------



## Soulful Sides

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> You know what? The Bulls started 0-9 last year. They turned out OK.


I was thinking this when I saw this thread.

I think they are too talented to be the worst team in basketball.


----------



## Sith

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

bottom line, curry is the perfect fit for the current bulls team, the bulls make curry look better (althought only slightly)than he actually is, and curry makes the bulls look better than they actually are too.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> Your response is typical deflection and avoidance. No one's making the claim that Toni Kukoc is one of the greatest players of all time, nor is anyone making the claim that Eddy is a terrific individual defender.
> 
> The question, yet again, is how a team could be the best defensive unit in the league while giving so much playing time to the so-called worst individual defender in the National Basketball Association.
> 
> And there's nothing sarcastic about my expectations for the Bulls' team defense. If you don't have the same goals, it says a lot about how much you truly believe in what you're writing here.


No, the real question is why are so many people defending Curry when he isn't a Bull any more?

The real question is why the Knicks are 0-3 when Eddy Curry is such a difference maker? He is 3rd on the team in minutes, yet they are 0-3. That tells me just as much as "Eddy was #2 in minutes on the best FG% defense in the league last season".

The real question is why Eddy Curry isn't in shape yet when he was "100% absolutely given a clean bill of health" *over 4 months ago*?

The real question is why Larry Brown has to tell Eddy to get off the exercise bike and actually get in shape on the practice floor?

Man, I used to love conversing with you, ScottMay. I loved all the research you did this summer as to the medical issues.

But, just like K4E, you are becoming a caricature of yourself, I'm sorry to say. Your hatred is blinding you to the basic facts, and now you have sunk to defending Eddy when he has looked like garbage for the most part.

Eddy's Knicks are 0-3, but the "we can't live without Eddy' forces are still somehow trying to defend their position.

*******************

Wynn was right, this board is starting to really suck, the people who are completely wrong about stuff are the most vocal. Sad, but true.


----------



## Soulful Sides

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

They could absorb the toughness of this guy



> People already love Knick rookie Nate Robinson--because he's tiny, tough, and talented. But yesterday at New York's practice facility, the pip-squeak entered folklore.
> 
> For the rest of history, every Nate Robinson feature article worth its salt will mention what happened yesterday: the little man went after one of the biggest players in the league, teammate Jerome James.
> 
> That's 180 pounds vs. 290.
> 5-8 vs. about 7 feet.
> 
> They had to be seperated by teammates. Twice.
> 
> Who knows what he Robinson was thinking. (Even he wondered out loud to reporters after the fact.) But the meta-message was clear as a bell: "I might be small my whole life, but I'm not going to act small for one second." That's a message that resonates. People are going to love this guy.


http://www.truehoop.com/new-york-knicks-877-nate-robinson-birth-of-a-legend.html


----------



## jbulls

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> No, the real question is why are so many people defending Curry when he isn't a Bull any more?
> 
> The real question is why the Knicks are 0-3 when Eddy Curry is such a difference maker? He is 3rd on the team in minutes, yet they are 0-3. That tells me just as much as "Eddy was #2 in minutes on the best FG% defense in the league last season".
> 
> The real question is why Eddy Curry isn't in shape yet when he was "100% absolutely given a clean bill of health" *over 4 months ago*?
> 
> The real question is why Larry Brown has to tell Eddy to get off the exercise bike and actually get in shape on the practice floor?
> 
> Man, I used to love conversing with you, ScottMay. I loved all the research you did this summer as to the medical issues.
> 
> But, just like K4E, you are becoming a caricature of yourself, I'm sorry to say. Your hatred is blinding you to the basic facts, and now you have sunk to defending Eddy when he has looked like garbage for the most part.
> 
> Eddy's Knicks are 0-3, but the "we can't live without Eddy' forces are still somehow trying to defend their position.
> 
> *******************
> 
> Wynn was right, this board is starting to really suck, the people who are completely wrong about stuff are the most vocal. Sad, but true.


Eddy Curry's performance through the Knicks first 3 games tells you "just as much" as his performance over 60 something games for the Bulls last year? Wow.


----------



## lougehrig

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Curry is outstanding at finishing. I think Curry is very overrated as a back to the basket feed him the ball post player. The numbers back this up, most of his buckets last season were assisted, and most of his turnovers and such came from when he tried to create for himself.


To me this is the key factor which makes Curry a bench player and not Shaq or Amare. The guy depends on too many other players to complete his game. AD+EC = one hell of a player. He was stopped many times in today's game by the like of Chris Taft and Adonal Foyle with his back to the basket. Soon enough the tough NY press will catch on, once the "Oh my god, we got an under 25, drafted out of HS player, who is 6'11" and 285 player" impact wears off.


----------



## SausageKingofChicago

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I said some time ago that Eddy will have a nice Elden Campbell type career ( but not being as strong a rebounder or individual defender when Elden felt like it )


----------



## yodurk

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



NYKBaller said:


> I'm just going to rant for a minute, I'm surprise that fans like yourselves, especially the bulls, would act like this. You guys started 0-9 and talking about us having a meltdown. You guys want to bump back year old threads where Ben Gordon was a bust after 6-10 games then midseason after a team "gels" and builds "chemistry" you guys got better.
> 
> It's been already 3 games and if you haven't notice we're playing defense and holding teams to low FG% and low scoring games. We're playing 13 man rotation if you believe that because Mo played one game and Lee played this game, once that rotation is limited to a usually 9 man slot, that'll be the team to go to war with. What happened to the Jazz that starte 4-0 and everyone was saying second round of playoffs? What happened to the Cavs last year had a fast start and missed the playoffs. This is a LONG season and once our HALL OF FAME coach figures this team out I have no doubt we'll be in the playoffs and have an allstar on the roster....


You must've missed a few of the early posts in this thread. 

I'm far from counting the Knicks out. Far too early for that. But as a Bulls fan, I can't help but like what I've seen from them. No offense or anything. 

I'm very surprised at their style of play though. They've adopted LB's slow it down style of play and have been playing lower scoring types of games. I expected much higher scoring affairs. Not sure if it'll continue like that, but surprising nonetheless.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sportsstory.asp?id=115600



> Bulls fans have reason to pay close attention to the New York Knicks this season.
> 
> Not only does New York have three ex-Bulls in its rotation, the Bulls will most likely get the Knicks’ top draft pick next year from the Eddy Curry trade.
> 
> Week 1 of the Larry Brown era had to be more entertaining than anything playing on Broadway at the moment.
> 
> On opening night in Boston, Brown decided to bench former Bulls guard Jamal Crawford, even though he started every preseason game, in favor or Quentin Richardson and Matt Barnes. Didn’t anyone warn Brown that Crawford’s feelings are hurt easily?
> 
> “I’ll be professional and be ready when my number is called,” Crawford said before committing 6 turnovers against the Celtics. “That’s it. That’s my statement. I’m done with it. I’ll be professional, be ready when my number is called.”
> 
> Through three games, Crawford is averaging 5.7 points, 3.3 turnovers and is shooting 28.6 percent from the field.
> 
> But Crawford should probably cut Brown some slack. Seven head coaching jobs in the NBA apparently didn’t prepare Brown for organizing this group of Knicks.
> 
> “I have no clue who to play,” Brown said. “My heart has a clue, but right now I don’t know if I’m being entirely fair about who plays, and that’s the one thing I think every coach has to be.”
> 
> The Knicks lost their home opener to Washington on Friday and were booed after falling behind by 19 points in the first half. The back page of the New York Daily News carried the headline “Broadway Flop” over a picture of Brown the next morning.
> 
> At Knicks practice on Saturday, 7-foot center Jerome James and 5-8 guard Nate Robinson had to be separated by teammates after tempers flared.
> 
> Brown is also considering the unusual step, for him, of calling all the plays from the sideline. He said during a film session he repeatedly asked the players what they were running and 90 percent of the time, they didn’t know.
> 
> New York fell to 0-3 with an 83-81 loss to Golden State at the Garden on Sunday afternoon and will head west for a six-game road trip.
> 
> Curry not concerned: Autopsy results revealed that Hawks center Jason Collier died of a heart abnormality. The chief medical examiner in Georgia said Collier’s heart was one-and-a-half times the size it should have been.
> 
> In the wake of this news, plenty of people remain concerned about the health of Eddy Curry’s heart. But the former Bulls center does not appear any less certain that he is fit to play.
> 
> “I just look at that as a sign that it could happen to anybody at any time,” Curry told the New York media. “I feel very comfortable in coming out here and playing every night. I had a lot of doctors look at my heart and look at my whole situation, and everybody had the same opinion, which is that I’m fine to play.”
> 
> Well, that’s not entirely true. Bulls’ doctors were not fully convinced. In fact, one of the Bulls’ concerns was that Curry’s heart was slightly enlarged and it didn’t shrink after six weeks of rest in the spring. But Curry heard a different opinion.
> 
> “(Doctors) told me that I had a normal-size heart for an athlete,” Curry said. “They said every athlete’s heart is a little bigger than normal, and that that’s what I had. It wasn’t a fixed size. Once I rested and stopped playing for a while, it went down to normal size.”


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Man, I used to love conversing with you, ScottMay. I loved all the research you did this summer as to the medical issues.
> 
> But, just like K4E, you are becoming a caricature of yourself, I'm sorry to say. Your hatred is blinding you to the basic facts, and now you have sunk to defending Eddy when he has looked like garbage for the most part.
> 
> Eddy's Knicks are 0-3, but the "we can't live without Eddy' forces are still somehow trying to defend their position.
> 
> *******************
> 
> Wynn was right, this board is starting to really suck, the people who are completely wrong about stuff are the most vocal. Sad, but true.


I am strangely unmoved by this little lecture. Maybe it's because you *still* haven't addressed the point; maybe it's because I find your "praise" to be a little hollow given all of the potshots you took over the summer (mostly on the other board, which is pathetic). 

In either case, I really don't care. If the board is that much of a trial for you, don't read, don't lurk, don't post 50 times a day. Surely there must be plenty of engaging and enriching things to do in Northwest Indiana.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Every loss for the Knicks is a *great* game for the Bulls and it is encouraging that at least two of their players are showing no signs of improvement so far. But it seems a little premature to be getting all giddy about it after 3 games. Its encouraging, but ultimately not all that important. 

Jay Williams rookie year the Bulls started 2-0.

Last season, as Tom pointed out, the Bulls starte 0-9. Its a long season. Teams lose in bunches and win in bunches all the time.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> this board is starting to really suck, the people who are completely wrong about stuff are the most vocal. Sad, but true.


Come to think of it, you have been posting quite a bit more than you used to.


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

This is just people who dislike Eddy and Jamal jumping all over the Knicks lack of early sucess. I think, most knowledgable basketball fans understand that it is going to take a little while for Brown to learn who to play and when to play them as well as time for the newcomers to get used to each other. Thats just the way these things go. I've watched 2 1/2 NY games and I have, for them, been encouragrd by the fact that they are playing defense and some of them are putting up some hustle. The biggest thing they need to do is trade Marbury IMO. Still, despite the slow start, I fully expect NY to be in the playoff hunt this season.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Edit


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ace20004u said:


> This is just people who dislike Eddy and Jamal jumping all over the Knicks lack of early sucess. I think, most knowledgable basketball fans understand that it is going to take a little while for Brown to learn who to play and when to play them as well as time for the newcomers to get used to each other. Thats just the way these things go. I've watched 2 1/2 NY games and I have, for them, been encouragrd by the fact that they are playing defense and some of them are putting up some hustle. The biggest thing they need to do is trade Marbury IMO. Still, despite the slow start, I fully expect NY to be in the playoff hunt this season.


What I find interesting is all the Knick supporting going on in this (and other) threads. All the excuses being made for their poor start. What's most interesting are the folks making excuses for the knicks now, for the most part, are the same folks who were taking great pleasure on railing on posters last season who were making the exact same excuses for the Bulls.

I'll say this one more time - it isn't the coach - it's the players. Honestly, what Curry and Crawford bring to the table is pretty much known. It ain't gonna change much. The problem Larry Brown faces is that he's got a bunch of talented "wrong way" players and his "right way" players are lesser talents. He's in a no-win situation. I've read how the Knicks are going to be a top-4 team in the east. I've stated that they may not be better than 4th in their division (only better than Toronto). The season is still very young and anything can happen. Brown could work his magic and make real players out of Marbury, Richardson, Crawford, Curry and James. I just doubt it. The desire of the talented players to play 48 minutes for 82 games doesn't exist on that team. 

Sure, there are those here who are going a little overboard on their "hatred" (if you want to call it that) of Curry, Crawford and the Knicks. There are also _plenty_ here who are going overboard on their praising of an 0-3 team. Personally, I hope the knicks continue to suck eggs. That means a much better pick for the Bulls and an asset that they can either choose to use or trade it. Realistically, I think the Knicks finish around 10th or 11th in the east, a few of games out of the 8th spot. If that's hating, then so be it.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



fl_flash said:


> What I find interesting is all the Knick supporting going on in this (and other) threads. All the excuses being made for their poor start. What's most interesting are the folks making excuses for the knicks now, for the most part, are the same folks who were taking great pleasure on railing on posters last season who were making the exact same excuses for the Bulls.


Great point.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

there are two factions here. We all know that. Many of you do know where I stand on this. Many times I am negative in my postings of JC and EC when they deserve it. 

I am happy that NY is 0-3. Thats good news for us. But I am of the camp that its too early to celebrate. Remember last year! 

I also find it interesting that NY has a west coast trip starting Wednesday. They could be 0-9 just like we were last season!! We all know what happened after that. However, I do not forsee NY going on a run the way we did. 

LB is a good coach. He will get some type of winning team combination together. When he does, personally I hope it will be too late for them to make the playoffs. 

so here is cheering for NY to fail!!!


----------



## YearofDaBulls

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Here's hoping that the Knicks completely bomb this season..


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truebluefan said:


> I also find it interesting that NY has a west coast trip starting Wednesday. They could be 0-9 just like we were last season!! We all know what happened after that. However, I do not forsee NY going on a run the way we did.


Yeah, going from 2-13 to 47-35 is not the norm. People act like if you go 0-9 to start a season, you're in a good spot to turn it around. The Hawks are also 0-3. Maybe they'll turn it around too. A lot of bad teams start 0-9ish and never look back.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Yeah, going from 2-13 to 47-35 is not the norm. People act like if you go 0-9 to start a season, you're in a good spot to turn it around. The Hawks are also 0-3. Maybe they'll turn it around too. A lot of bad teams start 0-9ish and never look back.


We made our run bascially on team defense. Gordon also found his shooting touch. Someone on the knicks will find their touch. They have too many shooters to say otherwise. But the trick is can LB take this team and make them play defense as quickly as SS did our team last season? 

A lot of their players are vets that have never had to do that. LB is demanding they do! Will be interesting to see what happens.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

tbf, you know that even-tempered reason isn't welcome here! :biggrin:


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truebluefan said:


> there are two factions here. We all know that. Many of you do know where I stand on this. Many times I am negative in my postings of JC and EC when they deserve it.
> 
> I am happy that NY is 0-3. Thats good news for us. But I am of the camp that its too early to celebrate. Remember last year!
> 
> I also find it interesting that NY has a west coast trip starting Wednesday. They could be 0-9 just like we were last season!! We all know what happened after that. However, I do not forsee NY going on a run the way we did.
> 
> LB is a good coach. He will get some type of winning team combination together. When he does, personally I hope it will be too late for them to make the playoffs.
> 
> so here is cheering for NY to fail!!!


Yea, they could be 0-9 to start the season, I just don't think they can turn it around like the Bulls did. We depended on four rookies to help turn this thing around. The Knicks will depend on three (who really all should play decent minutes). To use message-board terminology though, I view the rookies like this:

Duhon, Gordon, Deng, Noch >>>>>>>>>>>>> Frye, Lee, Robinson.

Frye has surprised me. He may end up getting more burn then either Curry or James. Lee is solid. Active but nothing special. Too bad Robinson is so short. I really like him. Tough as nails. I would have liked to have seen him go at James in practice. I'd put my money on Robinson.

I'd hate to be around the NY press if the Knicks do start 0-9. It'll be brutal.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



fl_flash said:


> Yea, they could be 0-9 to start the season, I just don't think they can turn it around like the Bulls did. We depended on four rookies to help turn this thing around. The Knicks will depend on three (who really all should play decent minutes). To use message-board terminology though, I view the rookies like this:
> 
> Duhon, Gordon, Deng, Noch >>>>>>>>>>>>> Frye, Lee, Robinson.
> 
> Frye has surprised me. He may end up getting more burn then either Curry or James. Lee is solid. Active but nothing special. Too bad Robinson is so short. I really like him. Tough as nails. I would have liked to have seen him go at James in practice. I'd put my money on Robinson.
> 
> I'd hate to be around the NY press if the Knicks do start 0-9. It'll be brutal.


Yes it will be brutal! The media was bad here, but not as bad as it could have been. We were used to losing the last 6 years!! NY? Oh....!!!


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I looked at NY's schedule, its even worse than I had thought! They have another west coast trip in early December. They schedule is awful all the way through Dec 9!


----------



## Soulful Sides

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Doesnt that mean that as Brown finds the right lineup and gets them playing well that they will hit a soft spot in the schedule?

In the NFL there is a way to measure the toughness of a schedule. Can it be done in the NBA?

I thought something else based on what I read in one of our three New York Knicks threads. Jamal Crawford may be traded. Why? Larry Brown doesn't like rookies and he doesn't like potential. He wants production. I think Jamal is still looking for a coach to coach him up to his potential.


----------



## YearofDaBulls

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

So many excuses from people on this board for Curry and Crawford. Maybe, their difficiencies are too much to overcome for them to become allstars. I find it dissapointing that people here go out of their way to make the Bulls organization look like they are the ones that are missing out because those two players are no longer here. Maybe some people should stop rooting for the Bulls and start rooting for the Knicks. Here is the link in case you need it:

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=37


----------



## dkg1

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truebluefan said:


> Yes it will be brutal! The media was bad here, but not as bad as it could have been. We were used to losing the last 6 years!! NY? Oh....!!!


The vultures are already circling in NY. Sorry, I wasn't sure which NYK thread to put this one in.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/col/lawrence/


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

larry and co. didn't even warrant the back page of the NY dailies this morning. (that's cause the Giants FINALLY won on the road! sheesh!)

but this one is a doozie. and it has begun. 




> Yesterday, as the Knicks added another "L" to Brown's resume, falling 83-81 to Golden State, Brown decided in the late stages he would be better off with rookie Nate Robinson than Crawford.
> 
> That was a slap in Crawford's face. But he's not going to be the first or last Knick to get smacked by Brown. A lot of 'em, including Stephon Marbury, have it coming. Because for too long around here they've been playing the way they want to play, not the way they need to play.
> 
> Brown's arrival changes all that. He'll play rookies because they get after it and listen, as opposed to his veterans, including Crawford, who go through the motions and seem to be wearing earplugs.
> 
> "They come every single day and play with passion," Brown said of Robinson and the other rookies, Channing Frye and David Lee. "It might not always be right. But when you don't have to coach effort, it's a big step."
> 
> In other words, although Crawford has five seasons of NBA experience, Brown would rather use Robinson, who has been in the league all of three games.




Jamal's show hits pine time


----------



## YearofDaBulls

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



dkg1 said:


> The vultures are already circling in NY. Sorry, I wasn't sure which NYK thread to put this one in.
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/col/lawrence/


Great news. Keep em coming. Maybe the Bulls organization knew a little more about Crawford and Curry than their fans.


----------



## Soulful Sides

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

There is a lot about the knicks here http://insidehoops.com/nba_rumors.shtml

I read this everyday. Keon Clark is a big, but he says he will not play again.

Steve Francis has a disease.


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



dkg1 said:


> The vultures are already circling in NY. Sorry, I wasn't sure which NYK thread to put this one in.
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/col/lawrence/


Youch! that's gonna leave a mark. On a personal level, I feel bad for the guy. He seems like a genuinly nice person. On a professional level, he's made is own bed and has no one else to blame for his situation but himself.


----------



## jbulls

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Soulful Sides said:


> Doesnt that mean that as Brown finds the right lineup and gets them playing well that they will hit a soft spot in the schedule?
> 
> In the NFL there is a way to measure the toughness of a schedule. Can it be done in the NBA?
> 
> I thought something else based on what I read in one of our three New York Knicks threads. Jamal Crawford may be traded. Why? Larry Brown doesn't like rookies and he doesn't like potential. He wants production. I think Jamal is still looking for a coach to coach him up to his potential.


Not easy to deal Crawford's contract, I don't hate Jamal's game but he's getting paid too much. You're only going to be able to deal him for somebody else's problem contract. Also, his only option at backup PG behind Marbury is Nate Robinson - a rookie.


----------



## jbulls

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



YearofDaBulls said:


> So many excuses from people on this board for Curry and Crawford. Maybe, their difficiencies are too much to overcome for them to become allstars. I find it dissapointing that people here go out of their way to make the Bulls organization look like they are the ones that are missing out because those two players are no longer here. Maybe some people should stop rooting for the Bulls and start rooting for the Knicks. Here is the link in case you need it:
> 
> http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=37


Crawford and Curry aren't the same player. I wish some around here would stop making it sound like they are. Different guys, different situations.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Top 5 players on the Knicks in minutes played, i.e., the players most responsible for the poor Knicks start.

#1 Marbury (should be be benched? Is he a cancer?)
#2 Antonio Davis (selfish, wrong way player?)
#3 Jamal Crawford (brown does not like to play him? He was on the court during the comeback stretch for the Knicks yesterday.)
#4 Trevor Ariza (selfish, wrong way player?)
#5 Eddy Curry (brown is going to play him as long as he can stay on the court, thats pretty clear at this point. He's rebounding and scoring at a better rate so far than last year. Turning the ball over and fouling more as well. He's also getting to the line a lot more. Judging by the animalistic pile-on going on here at bb.net, you would think he's Jerome James or something)

NBA centers sorted by points.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/byposition?pos=C
Its been a slow start for Curry... but he's holding up with his competition (NBA centers).

Hey, look who is leading the NBA in FTA for centers!

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/byposition?pos=C&conference=NBA&year=season_2005&sort=30



Entertaining. 

Also funny that many of the vocal opponents of the “update threads” are currently the most active on the “update threads”… and yes, this thread is an “update” thread. Might as well call it “Knicks update.” 

Enjoy your moments in the sun haterz!!!!!! I guess when everyone knows that around .500 and a low playoff bearth is the best-case scenario... you have to root for the failure of other teams. Oh yeah, all the Knicks hating is all about that draft pick, I forgot.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truebluefan said:


> We made our run bascially on team defense. Gordon also found his shooting touch. Someone on the knicks will find their touch. They have too many shooters to say otherwise. But the trick is can LB take this team and make them play defense as quickly as SS did our team last season?
> 
> A lot of their players are vets that have never had to do that. LB is demanding they do! Will be interesting to see what happens.


Well guys like Crawford, Richardson, Curry and James are a lot less likely to play some defense than Hinrich, Deng, Chandler, Nocioni, etc. There is a clear difference in mentality there. Knicks won't have near the frontcourt that we had last season. Both Deng and Chandler would be the best defender on the Knicks. Hinrich would be the best defender on the Knicks. 

We were set up to be a great defensive team, and Skiles was the right coach to bring it out. Knicks would be better off trying to play like the Suns last year. Dantoni would be the best fit for the Knicks at coach. Larry Brown is more in the mold of Scott Skiles, and the Knicks clearly don't have the tools to be a good defensive team consistently without playing guys like Davis, Rose and Ariza the most minutes in the frontcourt, which would mean limited minutes for our former Bulls. 

If the Knicks are going to be a team defined by Marbury, Crawford, Richardson, Curry, etc. They are going to need to get out and run, and put up a lot of points, and just try to be active on defense. That's Dantoni philosophy, not Larry Brown. Contrary to popular belief, having a primarily defensive minded coach on a team full of good offensive talents who don't play any defense is not a good combination. People like to think the coach will get them playing defense while they remain good on offense, but in reality, everyone just gets frustrated. Coach benches offensive players to show that he wants them to play defense, those players get frustrated about their playing time, and everyone ends up on a completely different page.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Entertaining.
> 
> Also funny that many of the vocal opponents of the “update threads” are currently the most active on the “update threads”… and yes, this thread is an “update” thread. Might as well call it “Knicks update.”
> 
> Enjoy your moments in the sun haterz!!!!!! I guess when everyone knows that around .500 and a low playoff bearth is the best-case scenario... you have to root for the failure of other teams. Oh yeah, all the Knicks hating is all about that draft pick, I forgot.


Hey, I'm game. Lets talk about something else. What would YOU like to talk about? Start a thread and I'll jump in when I can.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> Those should not be considered unreasonable goals, imo, if you happen to subscribe to the theories that A. we play the best brand of defense of the game and B. we've unloaded one of the worst defenders in the league.


Our interrior defense may not be as good as it was last year, not because we lost Curry, but because we no longer have AD. You'll overlook that, I'm assuming.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Hey, I'm game. Lets talk about something else. What would YOU like to talk about? Start a thread and I'll jump in when I can.


I don't have time right now... back to work... but here are some subjects that I would like to hear discussed.

Is Chris Duhon the best guard on the roster?

Are we currently fielding the right starting lineup? What would be a better one?

Do we still need a "big guard?" It seems pretty clear that Basden is not going to play much. Its all about the minutes. Basden is pretty much irrelevant to the team at this point.

BB.net Bulls Eastern Conference Power Rankings. I read a lot of people complaining about Stein's rankings. I'd like to hear where people think the Bulls currently stack up. For instance, while the Cavs are in last place at 1-2, do people really think we're a better team than the Cavs???

Maybe someone can start a thread on some of these topics if they want to. I won't be able to post much until later this evening.


----------



## jbulls

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Our interrior defense may not be as good as it was last year, not because we lost Curry, but because we no longer have AD. You'll overlook that, I'm assuming.


Not a bad point.


----------



## lgtwins

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Entertaining.
> 
> Also funny that many of the vocal opponents of the “update threads” are currently the most active on the “update threads”… and yes, this thread is an “update” thread. Might as well call it “Knicks update.”
> 
> Enjoy your moments in the sun haterz!!!!!! I guess when everyone knows that around .500 and a low playoff bearth is the best-case scenario... <b>you have to root for the failure of other teams. Oh yeah, all the Knicks hating is all about that draft pick, I forgot.</b>


Come on K4E, if you are complaining about people rooting against Knicks, you are barking at the wrong tree. Completely. Simply being a Bulls fan, you are to be anti-KNicks by default. "We love Bulls" also means "We hate Knicks". I totally understand your feeling toward your favorite former BUlls on Knick rosters, but you are becoming sound more and more like Knicks fan these days. 

Identity crisis???


Ask any Dukie what they think of UNC or vice versa.

Again this is approximate quote from UNC freshmen orientation. "Here on your left side, Library, Cafeteria over there, blah, blah. .... And WE hate DUKE".


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



lgtwins said:


> Simply being a Bulls fan, you are to be anti-KNicks by default. "We love Bulls" also means "We hate Knicks". I totally understand your feeling toward your favorite former BUlls on Knick rosters, but you are becoming sound more and more like Knicks fan these days.


Can't we talk about something else than the questioning of allegiances? 

And I completely disagree with you. I don't hate the Knicks and have not for a long time. I liked the Knicks team that went to the Finals behind Camby and Spree. I used to HATE the Pistons and now I root for them to win once the Bulls are out of it since I like their player and the way they play. I used to HATE Dennis Rodman…. A few years later I owned one of his jerseys.


Things change.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Also funny that many of the vocal opponents of the “update threads” are currently the most active on the “update threads”… and yes, this thread is an “update” thread. Might as well call it “Knicks update.”
> 
> Enjoy your moments in the sun haterz!!!!!! I guess when everyone knows that around .500 and a low playoff bearth is the best-case scenario... you have to root for the failure of other teams. Oh yeah, all the Knicks hating is all about that draft pick, I forgot.


I don't think the people you're referring to would care two bowel movements worth about the Knicks had they not been repeatedly hit over the head with the great tragedy of trading away Crawford and Curry, and how much of an idiot Paxson is for making those moves.

Your avatar and sig (for the past two seasons) have been made simply to point out Paxson's supposed shortcomings. And now you're calling out others because they're pointing out another team's failure? Man, get a little perspective.

But I guess all those clever, witty, and sarcastic remarks about cap space and DNA were that much more interesting.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Your avatar and sig (for the past two seasons) have been made simply to point out Paxson's supposed shortcomings. And now you're calling out others because they're pointing out another team's failure? Man, get a little perspective.


Meanwhile, we're likely going to be 1-2 after tonight and have some serious holes on the team to shore up. Perspective?

Yah, I don't think we're on a championship path... but at least that involves the Bulls.

Hate on. The Bulls very well may be better than the Knicks this season. I picked the Bulls to finish ahead of them as well… but does it matter? 

Two sub-.500 to slightly above .500 teams slugging it out for who gets to get thumped by SHAQ…. Followed up by the wooing of Joel Przbilla.

FAN-tastic!


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Enjoy your moments in the sun haterz!!!!!!


All of the posts celebrating the failure of Knicks are premature in that they assume the problems in New York can't or won't be fixed. As Bulls fans, we know how silly that is by virtue of last season. The Knicks will win their share of games this season. And when they do, you, as a Bulls fan, can gloat about all those Knicks wins.



> I guess when everyone knows that around .500 and a low playoff bearth is the best-case scenario... you have to root for the failure of other teams.


. . . . whose unprotected first round pick is owed to the Bulls.



> Oh yeah, all the Knicks hating is all about that draft pick, I forgot.


No, its not. I also bag on the Knicks because I consider them a historic rival. But the existence of that draft pick does make an empassioned defense against the Knicks "haterz" sound a bit funny coming from a Bulls fan.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Our interrior defense may not be as good as it was last year, not because we lost Curry, but because we no longer have AD. You'll overlook that, I'm assuming.


I haven't glossed over it. AD was a solid contributor for us, and losing him was just an awful capper to an awful trade, but the man is 37 years old, and the one area in which he helped us the most, defensive rebounding, is not exactly a scarce commodity. I'm fully expecting Chandler, Songaila, "Sweets," and even Deng/Noce and the guards to pick up the slack.

But if you want to use AD as an excuse for why our defense won't approach record-setting levels and might not even be as good as it was last year, despite shedding the so-called worst defensive big man in the game, that's your lookout.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> I don't think the people you're referring to would care two bowel movements worth about the Knicks had they not been repeatedly hit over the head with the great tragedy of trading away Crawford and Curry, and how much of an idiot Paxson is for making those moves.


I don't know if I'd have phrased it quite that way, but I agree with the sentiment.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I don't have time right now... back to work... but here are some subjects that I would like to hear discussed.
> 
> Is Chris Duhon the best guard on the roster?


we could have yet another player on the same team v. player on the same team thread, but ugh, enough already.



> Are we currently fielding the right starting lineup? What would be a better one?


we have that thread. ozibull started it. currently has what, 5 posts?



> Do we still need a "big guard?" It seems pretty clear that Basden is not going to play much. Its all about the minutes. Basden is pretty much irrelevant to the team at this point.


awesome. rookie hasn't played yet. let's label him irrelevant!!



> BB.net Bulls Eastern Conference Power Rankings. I read a lot of people complaining about Stein's rankings. I'd like to hear where people think the Bulls currently stack up. For instance, while the Cavs are in last place at 1-2, do people really think we're a better team than the Cavs???


well? what do you think?? i bumped it, updated it and yet the crickets are chirping.


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> All of the posts celebrating the failure of Knicks are premature in that they assume the problems in New York can't or won't be fixed. As Bulls fans, we know how silly that is by virtue of last season. The Knicks will win their share of games this season. And when they do, you, as a Bulls fan, can gloat about all those Knicks wins.
> 
> 
> 
> . . . . whose unprotected first round pick is owed to the Bulls.
> 
> 
> 
> No, its not. I also bag on the Knicks because I consider them a historic rival. But the existence of that draft pick does make an empassioned defense against the Knicks "haterz" sound a bit funny coming from a Bulls fan.


Blab on all you want, RC. k4e, ScottMay, and MikeDC all have more rep power than you, so why should I listen? nfire:


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I don't know if I'd have phrased it quite that way, but I agree with the sentiment.


True.  _You_ prefer to use the word "poops".


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> No, its not. I also bag on the Knicks because I consider them a historic rival. But the existence of that draft pick does make an empassioned defense against the Knicks "haterz" sound a bit funny coming from a Bulls fan.


Ah. More allegiance questioning. I guess the PMs were bull****.

I think it has a lot more to do with a style of play, attitude, look n feel that any historic rival stuff. 

The Pistons are a historic rival as well. You don't see anywhere near the hatred for that team. Actually, we're supposedly now building our team in their image. They are admired by the “right way” Bulls fans. 

I don’t think it has much to do with historic rivalries at all.

Bag on the Knicks all you want if you think its fun. Both teams are pretty much irrelevant in the NBA right now. I'd like the Bulls to be relevant again. 

I hope Paxson is acquiring the talent to take us there, sicne attitude is not enough. 

Attitude and jib may be enough to make us the hard working Chicago Grizzles though.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Meanwhile, we're likely going to be 1-2 after tonight and have some serious holes on the team to shore up. Perspective?
> 
> Yah, I don't think we're on a championship path... but at least that involves the Bulls.
> 
> Hate on. The Bulls very well may be better than the Knicks this season. I picked the Bulls to finish ahead of them as well… but does it matter?
> 
> Two sub-.500 to slightly above .500 teams slugging it out for who gets to get thumped by SHAQ…. Followed up by the wooing of Joel Przbilla.
> 
> FAN-tastic!


You've actually (and conviently) failed to address any of my points and went to the old, reliable Paxson bashing... and thereby proving my original point. You're a one trick pony.


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Hate on.


Hate = Objectively disagreeing w/ K4E.


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Ah. More allegiance questioning. I guess the PMs were bull****.


Not only were they bull****, but now they're public rather than private.

I love this thread! :cheers:


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> You've actually (and conviently) failed to address any of my points and went to the old, reliable Paxson bashing... and thereby proving my original point. You're a one trick pony.


Actually, instead of bringing up board history and other posters I was talking about the Chicago Bulls.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Electric Slim said:


> Not only were they bull****, but now they're public rather than private.
> 
> I love this thread! :cheers:


You are the master of the pithy one-liner. 

Kudos!

I wish they were not all directed at me though. 

More talk about other posters. None about the Bulls. I guess that's what the people want.


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Actually, instead of bringing up board history and other posters I was talking about the Chicago Bulls.


Tom B, would K4E make a good lawyer?


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Actually, instead of bringing up board history and other posters I was talking about the Chicago Bulls.


Which one of the Bulls was this aimed at? Chris Duhon?



kukoc4ever from 3 posts ago said:


> Enjoy your moments in the sun haterz!!!!!! I guess when everyone knows that around .500 and a low playoff bearth is the best-case scenario... you have to root for the failure of other teams. Oh yeah, all the Knicks hating is all about that draft pick, I forgot.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Electric Slim said:


> Tom B, would K4E make a good lawyer?


Thank God no.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> You are the master of the pithy one-liner.
> 
> Kudos!
> 
> I wish they were not all directed at me though.
> 
> More talk about other posters. None about the Bulls. I guess that's what the people want.


Actually, this thread was all about the pathetic Knicks. You're the one that made references to other posters.


----------



## lgtwins

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> You are the master of the pithy one-liner.
> 
> Kudos!
> 
> I wish they were not all directed at me though.
> 
> More talk about other posters. None about the Bulls. I guess that's what the people want.


You tend to talk down Bulls most of time and develop a new habit to talk up KNicks for the last two seasons. What do you expect? And yes, PM is a BS.


----------



## Soulful Sides

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Kukoc4ever, you said at 12:08 that you had to go to work and could not start those other threads.

You are still posting at 12:51. Do you really have to go back to work?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Which one of the Bulls was this aimed at? Chris Duhon?



Hey, I'm guilty of it as well... I agree.

I really do have to get back to work. I'll make sure to check back later tonight to see if anyone has figured out a new way to bash Eddy Curry. Perhaps that will be the perfect elixir for a humbling Bulls loss. 

Win or lose, we'll still have a better record than the Knicks! YAH!!!!


----------



## Babble-On

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Hey, I'm guilty of it as well... I agree.
> 
> I really do have to get back to work. I'll make sure to check back later tonight to see if anyone has figured out a new way to bash Eddy Curry. Perhaps that will be the perfect elixir for a humbling Bulls loss.


Or maybe you could spend some about in the threads some of those other subjects you expressed interest in that mizenkay pointed out to you.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> . . . . whose unprotected first round pick is owed to the Bulls.


Has that ever been confirmed? 

I've never seen it shown as unconditional. In fact, the last definitive thing I saw in the Times said we were getting the HIGHER of New York's or San Antonio's picks next June.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

ok before this thread gets locked up like a couple of panther cheerleaders, i would caution us ALL (and me too) to keep this about the knicks and larry brown.

it is labeled OT now for a reason.

frankly, following the fortunes of a rival team, especially when draft picks are involved, could be a good ongoing thread. if there are those whose delicate sensibilities are offended by this, then i would suggest taking a page out of da grinch's playbook and just simply ignore it. it was a good read until it became so freaking personal.

there are all sorts of other topics on the front page today. lineup changes? yeah, let's discuss.

espn rankings? ok? i said my bit, what do others think?


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Hey, I'm guilty of it as well... I agree.
> 
> I really do have to get back to work. I'll make sure to check back later tonight to see if anyone has figured out a new way to bash Eddy Curry.


Yeah, I await for your new avatar as well.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

There are good coaches and bad coaches. We know this. Larry Brown is a good coach. But the question I have is whether he is a good fit for the Knicks roster. Right now it's not working, but this has happened before with Larry. Come to think of it, in year 1 of the Brown Pistons Experience, they were playing around .500 ball until the acquisition of Rasheed Wallace. Perhaps it will take Larry longer than desired to change the culture of this team.


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> ok before this thread gets locked up like a couple of panther cheerleaders, i would caution us ALL (and me too) to keep this about the knicks and larry brown.
> 
> it is labeled OT now for a reason.
> 
> frankly, following the fortunes of a rival team, especially when draft picks are involved, could be a good ongoing thread. if there are those whose delicate sensibilities are offended by this, then i would suggest taking a page out of da grinch's playbook and just simply ignore it. it was a good read until it became so freaking personal.
> 
> there are all sorts of other topics on the front page today. lineup changes? yeah, let's discuss.
> 
> espn rankings? ok? i said my bit, what do others think?


Don't lock it!!! I've having a hard time keeping my Dr. Pepper down! The stuff in here is priceless!

I do agree with you and this would be a great place to track the (mis)fortunes of the knicks. Kinda like a "if the playoffs started today..." thread.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Ah. More allegiance questioning. I guess the PMs were bull****.


You still don't get it. We all know you are a Bulls fan first. But the way you defend against Knicks bashing and stating that you "hope they do well" when we own their unprotected first round pick *sounds* strange coming *from* a Bulls fan *to* a Bulls fan.

Even though me expressly saying it in a thread last time didn't do it for you, let me say it again: *I fully believe that you, K4E, are first and foremost a Bulls fan and that you wish them greater success than you wish for the Knicks.*

But some of the things you write seem bizarre to me, and not just to me evidently. As I expressed in my PM that you decided to mention publicly in a thread.

Later.


----------



## Soulful Sides

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Can we get a subforum for following the Knicks, or wouild thatg cause the main boards traffic to fall too far?

We have three threads now, and the next time Antonio Davis has a big game we will have 4.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> ok before this thread gets locked up like a couple of panther cheerleaders, i would caution us ALL (and me too) to keep this about the knicks and larry brown.
> 
> it is labeled OT now for a reason.
> 
> frankly, following the fortunes of a rival team, especially when draft picks are involved, could be a good ongoing thread. if there are those whose delicate sensibilities are offended by this, then i would suggest taking a page out of da grinch's playbook and just simply ignore it. it was a good read until it became so freaking personal.
> 
> there are all sorts of other topics on the front page today. lineup changes? yeah, let's discuss.
> 
> espn rankings? ok? i said my bit, what do others think?


you mean, this is a bulls forum?


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truebluefan said:


> you mean, this is a bulls forum?


I'm just waiting on the number 12 bus. Do you know what time it stops here?


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> Has that ever been confirmed?
> 
> I've never seen it shown as unconditional. In fact, the last definitive thing I saw in the Times said we were getting the HIGHER of New York's or San Antonio's picks next June.


I guess you are right. It has conditions. If I remember correctly, and I may not, if the Knicks finish with a top 5 record in the league, the Bulls will then get the Spurs pick if it is in the bottom 10.

In other words, that condition is for the benefit of the Bulls. That is how I remember it anyway.

Its my recollection that unless the Knicks get one of the *best* 5 records in the league, the Bulls get their pick.


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> I guess you are right. It has conditions. If I remember correctly, and I may not, if the Knicks finish with a top 5 record in the league, the Bulls will then get the Spurs pick if it is in the bottom 10.
> 
> In other words, that condition is for the benefit of the Bulls. That is how I remember it anyway.
> 
> Its my recollection that unless the Knicks get one of the *best* 5 records in the league, the Bulls get their pick.


My understanding is that it's possible (although VERY unlikely) that the Bulls would not get a NY pick this season. For that to happen, the Spurs would have to have a top-10 pick - in which case they keep their pick as it is top-10 protected this season. If they finish out of the worst 10 teams (11 or later), that pick is conveyed to NY. Conversely, if the Knicks should happen to finish in the top five this season (pick 26 or later) their pick is conveyed to Utah (pick is top 25 protected). So, for the Bulls to not get any pick from NY, the Spurs would have to be one of the 10 worst teams in the league AND the Knicks would have to be one of the five best teams in the league. The odds of both of those events happening is pretty slim.

It's also my understanding that the Bulls get the higher of the two possible NY picks. Higher as in better. If both the Spurs and Knicks do well (Knicks as a top-5 team), then the Bulls get the Spurs pick as the Knicks pick would have been conveyed to Utah. If the Spurs play poorly (top-10 pick) and the knicks play poorly (less than top-5 best teams), the Bulls get the Knicks pick unprotected.
Finally, if the season plays out as expected, the Spurs will be a top team and convey their pick to NY and the Knicks may be a good team, but probably not a top-5 team. The only thing I'm not clear on is if the Bulls get the better of the two picks or if it's simply NY's pick that they get. I'm almost positive that there are no restrictions on either pick with respect to protections.

Does that sound about right?


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



fl_flash said:


> My understanding is that it's possible (although VERY unlikely) that the Bulls would not get a NY pick this season. For that to happen, the Spurs would have to have a top-10 pick - in which case they keep their pick as it is top-10 protected this season. If they finish out of the worst 10 teams (11 or later), that pick is conveyed to NY. Conversely, if the Knicks should happen to finish in the top five this season (pick 26 or later) their pick is conveyed to Utah (pick is top 25 protected). So, for the Bulls to not get any pick from NY, the Spurs would have to be one of the 10 worst teams in the league AND the Knicks would have to be one of the five best teams in the league. The odds of both of those events happening is pretty slim.
> 
> It's also my understanding that the Bulls get the higher of the two possible NY picks. Higher as in better. If both the Spurs and Knicks do well (Knicks as a top-5 team), then the Bulls get the Spurs pick as the Knicks pick would have been conveyed to Utah. If the Spurs play poorly (top-10 pick) and the knicks play poorly (less than top-5 best teams), the Bulls get the Knicks pick unprotected.
> Finally, if the season plays out as expected, the Spurs will be a top team and convey their pick to NY and the Knicks may be a good team, but probably not a top-5 team. The only thing I'm not clear on is if the Bulls get the better of the two picks or if it's simply NY's pick that they get. I'm almost positive that there are no restrictions on either pick with respect to protections.
> 
> Does that sound about right?


Yes, actually that does sound exactly right. Thanks.


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I'm a Bulls fan, I've started watching the Knicks since some of the Bulls talented players have been traded there. I am not of the belief that Curry or Crawford are "wrong way" players. I think thats just what you get people blathering about to justify shipping them off. They both have worked hard at various times in their careers and I think they will get it very soon as I have already said.

All I was saying is that the Knicks are 0-3 and anyone who thinks the Knicks are "wrong way" and dislikes Jamal & Eddy will jump all over this as a sign of the apocaplypse for NY when it really isn't. It's not called making excuses, it is called analyzing basketball, something I enjoy doing greatly. Sometimes your right, sometimes your wrong, but IMO it is FAR too early to start a "Ny season is a wash" thread IMHO. Their new players are still adjusting as is their new coach. I wouldn't be surprised to see them at .500 by the all star break or go better than .500 after the all star break.


----------



## Soulful Sides

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Can someone say what the wrong way is?

Is it like the way Eddie Robinson was?


----------



## darlets

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

82games.com do the knicks 

It's an interesting read about how much players can improve (decrease) their t/o if nothing else


----------



## johnston797

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



darlets said:


> 82games.com do the knicks
> 
> It's an interesting read about how much players can improve (decrease) their t/o if nothing else


That was interesting. I would have assumed some centers improved more over time. I may have to crunch Duncan's numbers.


----------



## dkg1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Report: Brown, Knicks Close To Buyout Deal 

Here are some excerpts from the article:


NEW YORK--Is Larry Brown close to leaving the New York Knicks? Knicks president Isiah Thomas told ESPN today that the team and Brown are in ongoing talks for a buyout of his contract, which has five years and approximately $50 million left on it. Brown reportedly told Thomas he was tired of coaching the group of underachievers and wanted to continue his career elsewhere. 

His agent, however, said that talks of a buyout were premature and that nothing had been decided yet. 

“We’re still in negotiations here. To say that Larry is definitely leaving the Knicks would be premature,” Joe Glass told reporters this morning. “Larry remains tremendously interested in the Knicks and is still involved in the day-to-day operations of the team. If a buyout does occur, and I’m not saying it will, you guys will be the first to know. Remember, Larry signed a contract with this team, and he doesn't take that kind of thing lightly.” 

also...


Sources within the Knicks organization say that Brown has been frustrated with his team’s inability to play defense and spread the ball out on offense. The younger players on the team are not catching on fast enough, and veterans like Stephon Marbury and Jamal Crawford can’t seem to break out of their bad habits. 

The situation came to a head on Friday when Brown lashed out at his team during practice and stormed out of the building, leaving them to finish the practice on their own. Afterward, the coach addressed reporters. 

“I’m extremely disappointed in the way this team is carrying itself,” Brown said. “It’s a wonder they won any games at all last year. I’m getting tired of it. Sometimes I think it’s just time for me to move on. Honestly, the only thing keeping me here right now is my deeply ingrained sense of loyalty. It might sound old-fashioned, but that's just the way I was brought up. ” 

Brown went on to describe the team’s myriad of problems. 

“Let’s see: Marbury is a great player, but he just has too many bad habits. Eddy Curry seems awfully slow to me. Malik Rose is Malik Rose. And Jamal Crawford, he needs to learn to pass the ball. I don’t know how to get through to the guy. Like today in practice, I wanted to demonstrate something to the team, so I asked Jamal to toss me the ball. He refused to do it. I asked him again, and he just shook his head. Over and over I asked him, but he steadfastly refused to pass it to me. As far as I know he’s still holding on to it. That’s a problem.” 

When questioned about their coach’s possible exit, many Knicks players said they weren’t surprised. Brown’s frustration has been building since the start of training camp and he's not optimistic about the team’s long term prospects. 

“We all know that coach Brown is frustrated right now,” said Marbury. “It’s tough for him because he’s used to coming from a winning system and this team is just inexperienced and a little hapless. We all know he’s not the kind of guy to stay in one place. He likes to move around. Still, it’s surprising to see him leave so soon. I expected him to be here at least two or three months before weaseling out of his contract.” 








http://www.thebrushback.com/brownbuyout_full.htm


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I'm just waiting on the number 12 bus. Do you know what time it stops here?


I have no idea! Must be late as usual.


----------



## USSKittyHawk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ace20004u said:


> I'm a Bulls fan, I've started watching the Knicks since some of the Bulls talented players have been traded there. I am not of the belief that Curry or Crawford are "wrong way" players. I think thats just what you get people blathering about to justify shipping them off. They both have worked hard at various times in their careers and I think they will get it very soon as I have already said.
> 
> All I was saying is that the Knicks are 0-3 and anyone who thinks the Knicks are "wrong way" and dislikes Jamal & Eddy will jump all over this as a sign of the apocaplypse for NY when it really isn't. It's not called making excuses, it is called analyzing basketball, something I enjoy doing greatly. Sometimes your right, sometimes your wrong, but IMO it is FAR too early to start a "Ny season is a wash" thread IMHO. Their new players are still adjusting as is their new coach. I wouldn't be surprised to see them at .500 by the all star break or go better than .500 after the all star break.


*You must spread some reputation around before giving it to ace20004u again. :whoknows: *


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

:eek8: :uhoh: :bsmile: 

LB has to their attention!! The sooner the better! I am not surprised.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ace20004u said:


> I'm a Bulls fan, I've started watching the Knicks since some of the Bulls talented players have been traded there. I am not of the belief that Curry or Crawford are "wrong way" players. I think thats just what you get people blathering about to justify shipping them off. They both have worked hard at various times in their careers and I think they will get it very soon as I have already said.
> 
> All I was saying is that the Knicks are 0-3 and anyone who thinks the Knicks are "wrong way" and dislikes Jamal & Eddy will jump all over this as a sign of the apocaplypse for NY when it really isn't. It's not called making excuses, it is called analyzing basketball, something I enjoy doing greatly. Sometimes your right, sometimes your wrong, but IMO it is FAR too early to start a "Ny season is a wash" thread IMHO. Their new players are still adjusting as is their new coach. I wouldn't be surprised to see them at .500 by the all star break or go better than .500 after the all star break.


There are more on your side than you think. I will not cheer for NY, but its too early to say they are done. 79 more games to be played.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

:rotf:

Great find, dkg1, where in the hell did you find a time machine?

Because the first 2/3 of that article will be written, word for freaking word, before this season is over.


----------



## johnston797

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Something like 13 of the Knicks' first 19 are on the road. New coach, lots of new players. Poor record so far. Hmmmm, that sounds vaguely familiar.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



johnston797 said:


> Something like 13 of the Knicks' first 19 are on the road. New coach, lots of new players. Poor record so far. Hmmmm, that sounds vaguely familiar.


yes! a familiar ring! They have a 6 game west coast trip starting tomorrow. And another 3 game west coast trip before Dec 9! 

A really good, veteran team with a coach that was with them last season would have a hard time with their early schedule. 

The true test of this team will be AFTER Dec 9. Will they lay down? Or will they come together and play LB type ball from then on out! It will be interesting to watch.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



johnston797 said:


> Something like 13 of the Knicks' first 19 are on the road. New coach, lots of new players. Poor record so far. Hmmmm, that sounds vaguely familiar.


You are 100% correct.

Exactly one year ago, the Bulls season was already over at 0-3 (according to several posters) and the Knicks were a playoff lock because they were playing very well (according to some posters).

Great call.


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truebluefan said:


> Will they lay down? Or will they come together and play LB type ball from then on out!


Is there any type of ball that isn't LB ball? I thought he invented the game.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



such sweet thunder said:


> Is there any type of ball that isn't LB ball? I thought he invented the game.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to such sweet thunder again.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



such sweet thunder said:


> Is there any type of ball that isn't LB ball? I thought he invented the game.


He DID invent the game. But then he moved on.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Please, people, you all know very well that Al Gore invented basketball...


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I watched the 2nd half of the knicks / blazers game last night and the knicks look just awful. The blazers front court did pretty much anything they wanted and the knicks just watched most of the game. LB looked totally out of his mind. This team is playing worse and with LB and his mind games my guess is this team could easily go 0 - 10 to start season. I think i say a thread that read something like "not to worry this team has GREAT potential". 

I must agree they have great potential to give us a top 5 pick next year.

Here are some highlights EC has 4 baskets and 6 TO. yes that is right 6 TO. And he is averaging 4.5 FGs per game and 3.8 TOs. This team looks alot like the bulls two years ago. JC, rose, marshall, EC. Soft teams lose games in the NBA regularly. The knicks will be lucky to win 30 games.

david


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



giusd said:


> I think i say a thread that read something like "not to worry this team has GREAT potential".
> 
> I must agree they have great potential to give us a top 5 pick next year.


lol. Best quote you've ever said. :laugh:


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Ty,

:banana:


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*


















:biggrin:


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/10/sports/basketball/10knicks.html



> There may come a time when the Knicks' season is defined by their growth, by the incremental steps that lead them away from their recent misery and toward some promising, distant horizon.
> 
> That time is not now, however, and their current path is not a steady progression but a maddening circle of false starts. Staring at an 0-3 record and a daunting six-game road trip, Coach Larry Brown again revamped his lineup and rotation Wednesday night, and the Knicks responded with a 95-83 loss to the Portland Trail Blazers.
> 
> Of all the troubling signs in a shaky first week of the season, this might have been the worst. The Blazers are even younger and less well-formed than the Knicks, and they figured to provide the easiest game of the trip.
> 
> The next five stops will only be tougher - Golden State, Sacramento, Utah, Los Angeles (Lakers) and Denver.[
> 
> "I think once we struggle it seems that it just snowballs," Brown said. "Our young kids continue to play hard; they're kind of fearless. I think everybody else seems like they're just afraid to make a mistake."





> There were not many encouraging moments, but Crawford provided a few. Crawford shook his early funk and scored 15 points and shot 6 of 10 from the field. Eddy Curry scored 14 points, and Stephon Marbury added 13.
> 
> But the Knicks again had turnover problems (20) as they fell to 0-4. Brown is running out of ways to tweak his roster.





> The key move was the promotion of Crawford, which restored the Knicks' starting backcourt from last season. "I've got to get Jamal to relax and play," Brown said Wednesday morning, "and I think it'll be helpful, him playing with Stephon. Then we'll figure out the rotations. I think it'll be a lot easier for me after that."
> 
> Last season, Crawford averaged a career-high 17.7 points, started 67 games and averaged 38.4 minutes. He remained a starter for most of the preseason, while Richardson was hurt. But Brown opened the season with Richardson at shooting guard and Crawford on the bench.
> 
> Crawford was jarred by the sudden, unexpected role change, and it showed. Over the first three games, he averaged 5.7 points, made 6 of 21 field goals and had more turnovers (10) than assists (8).
> 
> Crawford was careful not to admit frustration when he was sent to the bench and was similarly restrained about his return to the lineup.
> 
> "I'd be lying if I said I wasn't - not really disappointed - but just caught off guard" by the role change, "because everything up to that point looked like I was starting," Crawford said. Regarding his struggles as a reserve, Crawford said: "It was an adjustment, to go from starting to coming off the bench. It wasn't a rut."


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> :biggrin:


Well, the Knicks can't go 0-82, but it is fun to dream! :rbanana:


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> ...


Got a lot to say about the Bulls today, I see!


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> The next five stops will only be tougher - Golden State, Sacramento, Utah, Los Angeles (Lakers) and Denver.


Thats a tough schedule, if they don't manage to pull out a win, something is definitely going to go down.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Mikedc said:


> Got a lot to say about the Bulls today, I see!


please quit picking fights.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> please quit picking fights.


Pretty clearly he doesn't.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Mikedc said:


> Got a lot to say about the Bulls today, I see!


Yup, I do.

If the Knicks really did go 0-82, the Bulls would be guaranteed at least the #4 pick in the draft next summer. That, to me, is just as important (if not moreso) than the Bulls winning the 4th game of the regular season.

If I could choose right now between the Bulls winning 50 while the Knicks win 30 and the Bulls winning 40 while the Knicks win 20, I'll take the latter without hesitation.

I'm not that excited about the regular season, I started a thread asking people and the overwhelming consensus of Bulls fans on this board is that this season will be judged on what the Bulls do in the playoffs, not on whether they win 40 games or 50 during the regular season.



And on a side note, after all the times I was called a HATER for my opinions on Mr. Curry, now that he is proving me to be pretty correct so far, I am going to bring it up. Damned right I am.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> And on a side note, after all the times I was called a HATER for my opinions on Mr. Curry, now that he is proving me to be pretty correct so far, I am going to bring it up. Damned right I am.


And this is my problem with that Mr. Bullsville -- nothing I've seen from Eddy Curry this season remotely "proves" you to be pretty correct. Or almost correct. Or sort of correct.

Yes, the Knicks have gone 0-4, but Eddy is certainly not stinking up the place over there. I have absolutely no idea what you are gloating about.


He hasn't looked like Shaq in his prime in those 4 games, like some of the Eddy jockriders predicted, but he seems to be doing a pretty good job, from what I've seen.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> He hasn't looked like Shaq in his prime in those 4 games, like some of the Eddy jockriders predicted, but he seems to be doing a pretty good job, from what I've seen.


I agree with Bullsville on the general concept that Curry wasn't and would never be a critical piece to the success of the Bulls. I don't agree that Curry is a complete bum, however.

I have watched quite a bit of the Knicks this season and will continue to do so. And from what I've seen, this is the best *start* to a season I've ever seen Curry have. 

Of course, many of his shortcomings are still obviously there, but its not like he is stumbling out of the blocks in NY like he always did in Chicago.

I think its fair to say that I'm glad Curry is gone from Chicago and that I don't miss him one bit. But he's not Jerome James-ing it in the Big Apple right now. In fact, he might be the best player on that team so far this season.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

please quit taking shots at posters...

As for EC? Well i was going to defend eddy. And really it not any one mans fault. But as I looked at his numbers through 4 games, his blocks is up .18 and rebounds is up .9! 

Everything else is down, across the board. However it is just 4 games and I am pretty sure he is not in shape. 

I want to see what he is doing 20 games from now.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> And this is my problem with that Mr. Bullsville -- nothing I've seen from Eddy Curry this season remotely "proves" you to be pretty correct. Or almost correct. Or sort of correct.


Or enjoyable for anyone to read or talk about.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> And on a side note, after all the times I was called a HATER for my opinions on Mr. Curry, now that he is proving me to be pretty correct so far, I am going to bring it up. Damned right I am.


You also opined that Eddy Curry would never play again due to his heart condition, and you ridiculed and insulted those who told you that you were wrong.

Every time Eddy Curry plays in an NBA game -- poorly, excellently, or anywhere in between -- he is proving you not just to be "pretty" incorrect, but totally incorrect. 

Congratulations!


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> And this is my problem with that Mr. Bullsville -- nothing I've seen from Eddy Curry this season remotely "proves" you to be pretty correct. Or almost correct. Or sort of correct.
> 
> Yes, the Knicks have gone 0-4, but Eddy is certainly not stinking up the place over there. I have absolutely no idea what you are gloating about.
> 
> He hasn't looked like Shaq in his prime in those 4 games, like some of the Eddy jockriders predicted, but he seems to be doing a pretty good job, from what I've seen.


Well, I don't consider .439 FG shooting to be "doing a pretty good job", not from a guy who is (allegedly) a dominant low-post offensive threat who was supposed to be "irreplacable". But hey, that's just me.

And as I'm sure you know, my main contention all along has been that the Bulls wouldn't miss Eddy (they haven't so far, Sweets has matched Eddy), and that Eddy would do nothing to make the Knicks a better team (he hasn't so far).


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Mikedc said:


> Or enjoyable for anyone to read or talk about.



another zing from MikeGB.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> *You also opined that Eddy Curry would never play again due to his heart condition*, and you ridiculed and insulted those who told you that you were wrong.
> 
> Every time Eddy Curry plays in an NBA game -- poorly, excellently, or anywhere in between -- he is proving you not just to be "pretty" incorrect, but totally incorrect.
> 
> Congratulations!


Huh?

I certainly don't remember ever saying that, but if I did I was certainly wrong.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The Knicks are only two wins behind us. Their season is obviously in shambles now. :rollseyes:


----------



## YearofDaBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



futuristxen said:


> The Knicks are only two wins behind us. Their season is obviously in shambles now. :rollseyes:


Well, let's be realistic. It might be a trend with them. They have a lot of talented players who can score but don't play a lick of defense and I think that's the kind of players Isiah likes which is probably the complete opposite of what Larry Brown wants. The more I think about it the more Larry Brown came to New York to collect a paycheck. How could he not know the situation was going to be like this?


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

All i have to say is 0 - 5 and this team is on there way to 0 - 9. And it should be no surprise to anyone how bad they are playing. This is the all show boat team. This team could easily be 10 to 12 games under 500 by the end of december. And LB show no ape**** pretty soon.

I have watched the knicks games and teams like the knicks, and the bulls of 2 years ago with JR, JC, and EC, always look good even thro they lose game after game. That is because they dont do the little things that win games but put all there energy to show boating on the offensive game.

The knicks dont play much defensive, dont hustle, dont rotate on D, and miss assignment after assignment. That is why they are 0 - 5 and that is why they will have the 5th or 6th worst record. Also, as this team melts down on this and their next west coast road trip the rumors about trades and what not along with LB benching players should result in total kniick meltdown. The tradre rumors will start getting under the players skin and they will start complaining about IT and then look out for total meltdown.

2005 / 2006 knick team will win like 25-30 gamaes. And with a little luck we get one of the top 5 picks in the draft.

david


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Remember, on December 23 of last season we were 2 games ahead of Atlanta. Many on here were saying we were the worse team in the league. The fire Paxson club was still in full force. 

A lot could happen with NY.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truebluefan said:


> Remember, on December 23 of last season we were 2 games ahead of Atlanta. Many on here were saying we were the worse team in the league. The fire Paxson club was still in full force.
> 
> A lot could happen with NY.


Indeed. I enjoy giusd's harsh criticism as much as the next Bulls fan, but it will take alot for the Knicks to finish with less than 35 wins, IMO. I agree that they have poor chemistry and all that. But I can't get past the fact that they're both big and talented. At some point, you have to suspect that they will find some sort of stride.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*


















i simply cannot help myself.


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



futuristxen said:


> The Knicks are only two wins behind us. Their season is obviously in shambles now. :rollseyes:


That's how I look at it now at least! Two games from now we and the Knicks could have identical records. Let's wait before we really feel the Knicks will be bad and the Bulls will be good.


----------



## dkg1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truebluefan said:


> Remember, on December 23 of last season we were 2 games ahead of Atlanta. Many on here were saying we were the worse team in the league. The fire Paxson club was still in full force.
> 
> A lot could happen with NY.


True, but things were a lot different in the East last season. Most of the teams in the East have improved since last season. It's going to be a lot more difficult for a team to dig themselves out of an 0-8 or 0-9 hole this year.


----------



## TRUTHHURTS

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



YearofDaBulls said:


> Well, let's be realistic. It might be a trend with them. They have a lot of talented players who can score but don't play a lick of defense and I think that's the kind of players Isiah likes which is probably the complete opposite of what Larry Brown wants. The more I think about it the more Larry Brown came to New York to collect a paycheck. How could he not know the situation was going to be like this?


Why are they not playing defense ? I think that at some point people are gonna have to stop hanging on the reps the players have and start looking at what is happening in the actual games.


the knicks are 

7th in opp. fg%

11th in opp. 3p fg% 


they are playing DEFENSE 

They have committed an alarming number of turnovers and missed ft's as the players adjust to Brown offensively .The knicks players were never said to lack the talent to play defense just the willingness to put forth the effort .Well they have been putting forth the effort and its starting to show .

That team will be much better in February than they are now and they still have a couple of pieces in which to make a move with as well.Which is a shame because the Bulsl could really use a high pick this summer for a decent trade package.

The knicks have problems but its none of the ones that were previously associated with their players before Brown got there .


----------



## townknave

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Thank you TRUTHHURTS, I am getting really sick of Bulls fans saying we can't play defense. If anything we are a pretty good defensive team this year.

You can say we've sucked on offense this year, because we certainly have. You can say we've looked disorganized and played stupid, and that'd also be true. You can say that LB's horrific rotations (why is Malik Rose even playing? He lost last night's game for us) have cost the team. But you can't say our defense is bad when the objective truth is that it is vastly improved since last year.

Maybe our individual players aren't known for playing good defense, but somehow we've been doing it. I figured Bulls fans of all people would understand, good defense is played by TEAMS, not individuals.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



townknave said:


> Thank you TRUTHHURTS, I am getting really sick of Bulls fans saying we can't play defense. If anything we are a pretty good defensive team this year.
> 
> You can say we've sucked on offense this year, because we certainly have. You can say we've looked disorganized and played stupid, and that'd also be true. You can say that LB's horrific rotations (why is Malik Rose even playing? He lost last night's game for us) have cost the team. But you can't say our defense is bad when the objective truth is that it is vastly improved since last year.
> 
> Maybe our individual players aren't known for playing good defense, but somehow we've been doing it. I figured Bulls fans of all people would understand, good defense is played by TEAMS, not individuals.


we do not mean to sound arragant, its just as a team we lead the league in opp, FG%. (I think thats what it was) all last season. We played good team d all year. As bulls fans we know first hand about two players you have. JC and EC both do not play solid defense, at least not night in and night out and that may be where this talk is coming from. 

AD plays good defense. 

I do think in time, LB will get the team to play better D, but will the entire team buy into this? You have 4 offensive minded players on that team. Historically all 4 have never bought into the team defense idea, it may take LB a while to instill it. 

The advantage LB has is the younger players he has can be taught, if they are coachable.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> i simply cannot help myself.


I am looking at this with conscious optimism. 

I love the fact they are 0-5. But then LB is their coach, they do have some talent. I think they will win between 30-35 games. That means from here on out they will play right at .500. They could match the 33 wins of last season. 

they were 2-3 after 5 games last season. Mohommed was their center, K Thomas was playing big for them at pf and TT was their starting 3. 

As I said, I would be lying in saying I am not pleased with their bad start. But lets see what happens from here on out. 

Is this team better than that team after five games? IS TT, Mohammed, KT and Sweetney off of the bench, better than AD, Q and EC and Frye? and to a lesser extent M Taylor?

Time will tell.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

i said this in the town knave thread and i will say it here:

*i don't doubt for a minute that larry brown will eventually make this team (or the knick team he ultimately assembles) into a playoff team. but with all due respect, it won't be this year.*

watching the 4th quarter collapse last night had me thinking not of last years bulls team, but of the team from 03-04. meaning, i don't think that they are mentally tough enough right now. larry has them all wound up in so many different directions, how can they help but to be confused? once they get on the same page they will definitely improve. 

but i will say this. i hope they continue to suck. 

it was hilarious the other night when len berman the local sports guy on wnbc had this and only this to say about the knicks the night before the warrior game.

"the knicks go for 0-5 tomorrow against the warriors" 

that was it. and you know what? i laughed.


----------



## badfish

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



townknave said:


> Thank you TRUTHHURTS, I am getting really sick of Bulls fans saying we can't play defense. If anything we are a pretty good defensive team this year.
> 
> You can say we've sucked on offense this year, because we certainly have. You can say we've looked disorganized and played stupid, and that'd also be true. You can say that LB's horrific rotations (why is Malik Rose even playing? He lost last night's game for us) have cost the team. But you can't say our defense is bad when the objective truth is that it is vastly improved since last year.
> 
> Maybe our individual players aren't known for playing good defense, but somehow we've been doing it. I figured Bulls fans of all people would understand, good defense is played by TEAMS, not individuals.


TK, you are right that the defensive stats are quite impressive thus far. I've seen most Knick games this year (except Portland and only the second half of last night's game.) I'm just not seeing the team defense you are talking about. The defensive rotations seems slow to me. The guard are still getting burned often. I will say that Ariza is a defensive standout and just wreaks havoc. The opponents you have played thus far are just launching an ungodly amount of threes. I think the average is like 23 a game or something.

This leads me to believe that it's too early to draw any conclusions positive or negative about any teams defense (except perhaps those with track records like the Spurs or the Pistons). There just isn't a big enough sample yet. 

Having said that, it's certainly encouraging that they aren't worst in the league in defensive stats. It stands to reason that the Knick team defense will be better this year than last due to Coach Brown's influence. However, from watching the games I just can't see it yet. No disrespect intended.

EDIT: One other thing, good defenses are able to make stops late in games. The Knicks thus far haven't been able to accomplish this.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> don't doubt for a minute that larry brown will eventually make this team (or the knick team he ultimately assembles) into a playoff team. but with all due respect, it won't be this year.


I was saying that long before the season started. I agree.


----------



## townknave

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truebluefan said:


> we do not mean to sound arragant, its just as a team we lead the league in opp, FG%. (I think thats what it was) all last season. We played good team d all year. As bulls fans we know first hand about two players you have. JC and EC both do not play solid defense, at least not night in and night out and that may be where this talk is coming from.
> 
> AD plays good defense.
> 
> I do think in time, LB will get the team to play better D, but will the entire team buy into this? You have 4 offensive minded players on that team. Historically all 4 have never bought into the team defense idea, it may take LB a while to instill it.
> 
> The advantage LB has is the younger players he has can be taught, if they are coachable.


Interesting how you played such great defense when your starting center does "not play solid defense." Also interesting how opposing centers averaged a below-average 13.3 PER against said center. Even if Curry is a bad individual defender, I think this demonstrates that team defense and philosophical focus is what matters. You're right that for that to happen, players have to "buy in" to the system. I submit that that's already happened, and that's why we are losing close instead of getting blown out every night.

Badfish, if you aren't noticing the improved defense, then it's probably because your Bull-fan eyes are used to seeing a lot of your team's defense last year, and not a lot of my team's. We don't look like a top tier defensive team, because we aren't yet. But compared to last year, we look like the Pistons out there. Maybe we can only defend for 45 minutes now, but it's infinitely better than 0. Besides, the deficit in those last three minutes is more likely attributable to our inexperience as a unit and our coach's current mad-scientist attitude than a categorical inability to play defense. You're right that it's not a big sample, but nobody's denying that. I think at this point a discussion of this season among reasonably sophisticated fans should carry with it the tacit understanding that it's still very early. It doesn't mean observations from this season don't still have weight.

As for our guards getting burned, I'd argue that applies mainly to JC. Marbury, most Knick fans agree, has legitimately played better defense than last year.


----------



## badfish

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



townknave said:


> Interesting how you played such great defense when your starting center does "not play solid defense." Also interesting how opposing centers averaged a below-average 13.3 PER against said center. Even if Curry is a bad individual defender, I think this demonstrates that team defense and philosophical focus is what matters. You're right that for that to happen, players have to "buy in" to the system. I submit that that's already happened, and that's why we are losing close instead of getting blown out every night.
> 
> Badfish, if you aren't noticing the improved defense, then it's probably because your Bull-fan eyes are used to seeing a lot of your team's defense last year, and not a lot of my team's. We don't look like a top tier defensive team, because we aren't yet. But compared to last year, we look like the Pistons out there. Maybe we can only defend for 45 minutes now, but it's infinitely better than 0. Besides, the deficit in those last three minutes is more likely attributable to our inexperience as a unit and our coach's current mad-scientist attitude than a categorical inability to play defense. You're right that it's not a big sample, but nobody's denying that. I think at this point a discussion of this season among reasonably sophisticated fans should carry with it the tacit understanding that it's still very early. It doesn't mean observations from this season don't still have weight.
> 
> As for our guards getting burned, I'd argue that applies mainly to JC. Marbury, most Knick fans agree, has legitimately played better defense than last year.


If you are comparing it to last season, then I can't really comment since I didn't watch but a handful of Knick games last year. And it is true that my viewpoint can't help but be colored by my Bulls fan perspective (and quite possibly my dislike for the Knicks). I'm trying to be objective but it's probably hopeless. :biggrin: 

At this point in the year stats just aren't that meaningful. This includes Curry's low 40s percentage FGs made. It's only been five games. Bringing out FG opp.% rankings as a measure of how well the Knicks are playing defense is not good enough IMO. I believe TRUTHHURTS did so earlier in this thread. 15-20 games from now, I think they start to become meaningful. 

Personal observation is the best we can do at this point. And you say they are playing much better than last year. Therefore, I defer to your knowledge on this point. I also agree that Marbs is much more active this year on defense.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



townknave said:


> Interesting how you played such great defense when your starting center does "not play solid defense." Also interesting how opposing centers averaged a below-average 13.3 PER against said center. Even if Curry is a bad individual defender, I think this demonstrates that team defense and philosophical focus is what matters. You're right that for that to happen, players have to "buy in" to the system. I submit that that's already happened, and that's why we are losing close instead of getting blown out every night.
> 
> Badfish, if you aren't noticing the improved defense, then it's probably because your Bull-fan eyes are used to seeing a lot of your team's defense last year, and not a lot of my team's. We don't look like a top tier defensive team, because we aren't yet. But compared to last year, we look like the Pistons out there. Maybe we can only defend for 45 minutes now, but it's infinitely better than 0. Besides, the deficit in those last three minutes is more likely attributable to our inexperience as a unit and our coach's current mad-scientist attitude than a categorical inability to play defense. You're right that it's not a big sample, but nobody's denying that. I think at this point a discussion of this season among reasonably sophisticated fans should carry with it the tacit understanding that it's still very early. It doesn't mean observations from this season don't still have weight.
> 
> As for our guards getting burned, I'd argue that applies mainly to JC. Marbury, most Knick fans agree, has legitimately played better defense than last year.


you are bringing up a good point but you failed to realize our guards and AD made up for what Curry didnt have. Our guards, Duhon and Kirk and surprisingly Gordon were good on defense. I am not so sure you can say the same thing about your guards can you? 

AD can help Curry on defense but if you guards do not stop their men first, then Eddy does not have the skills to help them out. 

I respectfully disagree with your statement about losing just close games. Three of your losses were double digit. I agree that is not being blown out but at the same time that is not "close." You lost twice to GS by 2. Granted, GS is pretty good. 

Some of the games you guys have lost were not close even before you lost them. You had double digit leads in many of your losses. 

I hope for your sake that you are right. That you do see a silver lining. From my standpoint, I dont see it yet.


----------



## cima

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

People seem to be forgetting that a certain team started out 0-9 last year. I wouldn't be writing the Knicks off just yet.


----------



## madox

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



CiMa said:


> People seem to be forgetting that a certain team started out 0-9 last year


I doubt that anyone's forgotten anything, but either way it's irrelevant. 

0-5 is generally not a good sign of things to come. That's all anyone's saying.


----------



## cima

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Obviously, but we proved last year that 0-5, 0-7, 0-9, whatever it is, it can be overcome, and with Larry Brown at the helm, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the Knicks turn things around. It's not like they've been getting blown out in their losses.


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

So i have read all this about the knicks defensive stats. First, they have not exactly had the leagues hardest schedule so far. They have played bos, wash, GS, Portland, and GS for the second time. They have played exactly one team that made the playoffs last year. ONE. Maybe there defensive stats look as good as they do due to the fact they have had a very soft schedule. They now play four stright games against playoff teams (i am including utah since they will sure be a playoff team this year) and we shall see how their defensive stats look after these four games. My guess is they will not be nearly as good.

And it is not just that they play weak D and they dont hustle it is also that they dont seem to do all the little things that win games. Now dont get me wrong i love going after the knicks and i am old enought to remember when starks clothslined scotty pippen and almost toke of his head. I love watching the knicks implode. But some commented on the fact that the players that IT likes are the exact opposite. This is so true, LB would rather coach the bulls imho then NY. The bulls have LB kind of players and he is stuck with IT's players.

Just to sent it stright, i said last year (before the season and when the bulls were 3 and 14) they would have a better record than the knicks and i will say this, the knicks will not win 35 games and will be lucky to win 30. nuff said.

david


----------



## townknave

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



giusd said:


> So i have read all this about the knicks defensive stats. First, they have not exactly had the leagues hardest schedule so far. They have played bos, wash, GS, Portland, and GS for the second time. They have played exactly one team that made the playoffs last year. ONE. Maybe there defensive stats look as good as they do due to the fact they have had a very soft schedule. They now play four stright games against playoff teams (i am including utah since they will sure be a playoff team this year) and we shall see how their defensive stats look after these four games. My guess is they will not be nearly as good.
> 
> And it is not just that they play weak D and they dont hustle it is also that they dont seem to do all the little things that win games. Now dont get me wrong i love going after the knicks and i am old enought to remember when starks clothslined scotty pippen and almost toke of his head. I love watching the knicks implode. But some commented on the fact that the players that IT likes are the exact opposite. This is so true, LB would rather coach the bulls imho then NY. The bulls have LB kind of players and he is stuck with IT's players.
> 
> Just to sent it stright, i said last year (before the season and when the bulls were 3 and 14) they would have a better record than the knicks and i will say this, the knicks will not win 35 games and will be lucky to win 30. nuff said.
> 
> david


Ah, I count two playoff teams. Boston and Washington made the playoffs last year. GS for its part is also much better than it was for most of last year. Even if these teams are as wak as you say, the fact remains that the Knicks have played better D against them than the rest of the league has:

Golden State
vs. Knicks: .391 vs. other teams: .442

Boston
vs. Knicks: .420 vs. other teams: .463

Washington
vs. Knicks: .447 vs. other teams: .460

But I guess hard evidence of the Knicks' improved defense is irrelevant, because we don't do enough little things or something.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

about the knicks defense.

last year it was just bad and it failed them all the time late in games ....that really isn't happening this season.

it is better, better than i expected it to get but they have flaws that are costing them games , some are rare occurances like ft. shooting , should finish the season as a better than avg. free throw team like last season, and instead of winning them games its cost them at least 2 victories, rebounding has cost them at least once, even though they are outrebounding their opponents by a nice margin overall(much like the bulls did last season ...makes me wonder why people harp so much about eddy's rebounding, considering the knicks are +4 rebounds a game and the bulls are currently -5 per game, they miss his size in this department if not his actual ability to rebound), there are alot of signs that the knicks will turn it around...but the problem to me is mostly on the offensive side of the ball. they simply appear to have little chemistry , they pass to cutters who aren't there, botch plays due to bad spacing, and fail to properly execute late in games, they play like they are unsure of what to do with the ball. with their offensive talent they should get much better...when is really the only question.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

John Jackson in the Sun-Times:



> *Bulls have reason to root against Knicks *
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, in New York, tensions are high and new coach Larry Brown already sounds perplexed.
> 
> ''This is a work in progress, and I've got to do a much better job,'' he said after a recent loss. ''It's not [the players'] fault.''
> 
> The problem, though, might be that team president Isiah Thomas has assembled a roster that isn't suited to Brown's defensive-minded system. Although it is early in the season, the players just don't seem comfortable.
> 
> Point guard Stephon Marbury described learning Brown's system as trying to learn how to ride a bike all over again.
> 
> ''Right now, a bunch of us are trying to learn how to ride,'' Marbury said, ''but we're falling off.''
> 
> Indeed. It might be a good idea for Paxson to start scouting potential lottery picks immediately.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Hang in there, Stephon...Christmas is coming.


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The Knicks must go.

The Knicks must go down. 

The Knicks must go down hard. 

I've found a second driving force for this upcoming season. And, it doesn't have anything to do with Crawford's crossover, Eddy Curry's mother, or Larry Brown inventing the game of basketball (Though, I have no doubt he did, in some Al Gore'esque moment of brilliance).

I love the draft. I love draft day. I love Secaucus in the spring, and Madison Square Garden in the summer. I love the ill-fitting suits, and the crying mothers, and most of all, the "Fire Layden" chants. I love the can't miss Foreigner -- who we've seen once or twice in International ball. I love the can't miss Division II center -- who we've seen on some random ESPN rerun after midnight.

Last years trade for Luol Deng was a strategic gem, but it set us up for a long, slow offseason. And it was. 

Paxson's acquisition of a pick has given we fans a gift. The Knicks won tonight. I followed the box scores from start to finish and am all but ready to buy audio-league pass. Paxson has created a nemisis. A team we can all root against with fervor. Thank you Paxson. 

We should keep regular Knicks updates. This is not about jib and right way, waring factions in the "update" threads, but out of a love for the draft and making our team better. 

Go Bulls.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



such sweet thunder said:


> The Knicks must go.
> 
> The Knicks must go down.
> 
> The Knicks must go down hard.
> 
> I've found a second driving force for this upcoming season. And, it doesn't have anything to do with Crawford's crossover, Eddy Curry's mother, or Larry Brown inventing the game of basketball (Though, I have no doubt he did, in some Al Gore'esque moment of brilliance).
> 
> I love the draft. I love draft day. I love Secaucus in the spring, and Madison Square Garden in the summer. I love the ill-fitting suits, and the crying mothers, and most of all, the "Fire Layden" chants. I love the can't miss Foreigner -- who we've seen once or twice in International ball. I love the can't miss Division II center -- who we've seen on some random ESPN rerun after midnight.
> 
> Last years trade for Luol Deng was a strategic gem, but it set us up for a long, slow offseason. And it was.
> 
> Paxson's acquisition of a pick has given we fans a gift. The Knicks won tonight. I followed the box scores from start to finish and am all but ready to buy audio-league pass. Paxson has created a nemisis. A team we can all root against with fervor. Thank you Paxson.
> 
> We should keep regular Knicks updates. This is not about jib and right way, waring factions in the "update" threads, but out of a love for the draft and making our team better.
> 
> Go Bulls.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to such sweet thunder again.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



such sweet thunder said:


> The Knicks must go.
> 
> The Knicks must go down.
> 
> The Knicks must go down hard.
> 
> I've found a second driving force for this upcoming season. And, it doesn't have anything to do with Crawford's crossover, Eddy Curry's mother, or Larry Brown inventing the game of basketball (Though, I have no doubt he did, in some Al Gore'esque moment of brilliance).
> 
> I love the draft. I love draft day. I love Secaucus in the spring, and Madison Square Garden in the summer. I love the ill-fitting suits, and the crying mothers, and most of all, the "Fire Layden" chants. I love the can't miss Foreigner -- who we've seen once or twice in International ball. I love the can't miss Division II center -- who we've seen on some random ESPN rerun after midnight.
> 
> Last years trade for Luol Deng was a strategic gem, but it set us up for a long, slow offseason. And it was.
> 
> Paxson's acquisition of a pick has given we fans a gift. The Knicks won tonight. I followed the box scores from start to finish and am all but ready to buy audio-league pass. Paxson has created a nemisis. A team we can all root against with fervor. Thank you Paxson.
> 
> We should keep regular Knicks updates. This is not about jib and right way, waring factions in the "update" threads, but out of a love for the draft and making our team better.
> 
> Go Bulls.




_You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to such sweet thunder again._


:rock:


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I was able to rep him, and I did so.





I will also take a moment to say "way to go" to Eddy and Jamal, who dropped 16 each in the first win of the LB dynasty.


----------



## Soulful Sides

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I was able to rep him, and I did so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will also take a moment to say "way to go" to Eddy and Jamal, who dropped 16 each in the first win of the LB dynasty.


Jamal got 16 in? It muyst have been garbage time. I was following the game on courtside live (nba.com) and when I stopped, the Knicks were up 82-66 and Jamal had 5 points in ten minutes of play around the end of the third.

.500 here they come


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://www.nba.com/games/20051113/NYKSAC/boxscore.html


----------



## dkg1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Soulful Sides said:


> Jamal got 16 in? It muyst have been garbage time. I was following the game on courtside live (nba.com) and when I stopped, the Knicks were up 82-66 and Jamal had 5 points in ten minutes of play around the end of the third.
> 
> .500 here they come



Reading the ESPN recap, it sounds like Jamal hit a key layup off a feed from Marbury just when the Kings were closing the gap in the 4th. Good road win for the Knicks. Hopefully they don't win anymore out there.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



dkg1 said:


> Reading the ESPN recap, it sounds like Jamal hit a key layup off a feed from Marbury just when the Kings were closing the gap in the 4th. Good road win for the Knicks. Hopefully they don't win anymore out there.


The Jazz are next on their list. I don't think they'll beat them in Salt Lake. I don't think they'd beat them in New York, either.


----------



## TRUTHHURTS

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Soulful Sides said:


> Jamal got 16 in? It muyst have been garbage time. I was following the game on courtside live (nba.com) and when I stopped, the Knicks were up 82-66 and Jamal had 5 points in ten minutes of play around the end of the third.
> 
> .500 here they come



Actually there was no garbage time . He scored 11 of his 16 in the 4th holding off the Kings rally as they cut the lead to 6 at one point.

Weird game though as the knicks played like 11 guys I think and Malik Rose grabbed a player who fell into the bench and held him earning a technical.The dumbest thing Ive ever seen a "intangible leadership" guy do.


those knicks are now #5 in opp. fg % the Bulls are #4


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Crossword puzzle fun with the Knicks:

http://www.yaysports.com/nba/new_york_knicks/


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TRUTHHURTS said:


> Actually there was no garbage time . He scored 11 of his 16 in the 4th holding off the Kings rally as they cut the lead to 6 at one point.
> 
> Weird game though as the knicks played like 11 guys I think and Malik Rose grabbed a player who fell into the bench and held him earning a technical.The dumbest thing Ive ever seen a "intangible leadership" guy do.
> 
> 
> those knicks are now #5 in opp. fg % the Bulls are #4


Frye looked really good - at least on offense. He hit big shots. Curry actually resembled a real center. He did well passing out of the double and triple teams. He simply abused Miller. He still commits stupid fouls - like bumping Peja 30 ft. from the hoop. Crawford played well. Actually, begrudingly, I have to admit the whole Knick team played well. They answered the Kings runs and closed them out. Gotta give credit where credit is due.

Yea, Malik Rose holding (was it House?) was pretty dumb. You're trying to get your first win, on the road and he does something completly stupid like that.


----------



## Soulful Sides

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TRUTHHURTS said:


> Actually there was no garbage time . He scored 11 of his 16 in the 4th holding off the Kings rally as they cut the lead to 6 at one point.


You mean he is the Knicks Ben Gordon?


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

i'll give credit where credit is due.

the knicks looked pretty good against the kings. they made some nice plays. and larry sure looked happy as he walked off the court. so good for them, they're off the schneid. 

the kings? wow. just horrible. pitiful. no defense. like not even trying and just standing around defense! it was bad. 

really wish we were playing the kings on this west coast swing!


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Channing Frye...wow, this guy continues to surprise me. I really wish he were a Bull. Would be a great fit next to Chandler. But keeping things in perspective, we should realize that Frye is the Knicks' prize for stinking it up last year. I truly believe that if LB decides to play Frye and he produces, then the Knicks will turn it around (unfortunately); a real x-factor for that team.

I'm equally stunned how bad the Kings have been. Their starting 5 just looks so good on paper, but paper doesn't win games; if it did, then we wouldn't have even a shot at making the playoffs this year. Anyway, here's hoping LB sinks the Knicks.


----------



## USSKittyHawk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



narek said:


> The Jazz are next on their list. I don't think they'll beat them in Salt Lake. I don't think they'd beat them in New York, either.


No AK-47 (sprain ankle), Harpring and possible no Boozer. The Jazz are the walking wounded right now, which is great news for the Knicks.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Knicks benefit from depleted, pathetic Jazz

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/365838p-311519c.html



> SALT LAKE CITY - It wasn't until the third quarter that it finally dawned on the Knicks that Andrei Kirilenko, Carlos Boozer and Gordan Giricek, heck, even Karl Malone and John Stockton, were nowhere to be found.
> Every team needs a break now and then and the Knicks received plenty last night, with the Utah Jazz missing several regulars and using some players who are borderline NBA-caliber. The game certainly wasn't.
> 
> "It was ugly," Quentin Richardson said. "It was a low-scoring, ugly game."
> 
> Although Larry Brown's players can't be proud of it, they got what they needed most: their second straight win. The Knicks held Utah scoreless for 10 minutes in the second half and cruised to a 73-62 victory in a game that was as miserable as the final score indicates. The Knicks set a franchise record by allowing only 62 points, while the Jazz did their best to set the sport back 50 years.
> 
> Utah was so inept that the club's owner, Larry Miller, joined the team huddle at the end of the third quarter and spent the last 12 minutes standing next to the bench. If Miller could shoot, Jerry Sloan would have handed him a uniform.
> 
> "We played hard, but they didn't have Boozer and Kirilenko," Brown said. "We struggled offensively but we managed to hang in defensively."
> 
> The Knicks improved to 2-5 and gained some momentum heading into tomorrow's showdown against Phil Jackson and the Lakers in L.A. Jamal Crawford had seven of the Knicks' 27 total field goals and scored a game-high 20 points. Richardson scored all 12 of his points in the first half by knocking down four three-pointers. Eddy Curry finished with 10 points, nine rebounds and five blocks while Stephon Marbury was praised by Brown after scoring 10 points with five rebounds, five assists and zero turnovers.
> 
> On paper and on the court, the Knicks were superior, but they did have 23 turnovers and missed 10 of 24 free throws. Had they played as well as they had Sunday against Sacramento, the Knicks would have won by 50. Instead, their sloppy execution allowed the Jazz to hang around. Or more appropriately, hang themselves.
> 
> With four starters - Kirilenko, Boozer, Giricek and Keith McLeod - sidelined, the Jazz scored just 26 second-half points, eight in the third quarter. Yes, the Knicks were aggressive on defense, but this was more about the Jazz being inept.
> 
> The days of Stockton and Malone seemed like a distant memory. With the Delta Center several thousand shy of a sellout, Sloan had three rookies - Deron Williams, Andre Owens and C.J. Miles - in the rotation.
> 
> Still, the Jazz led by five in the second quarter and trailed by just 37-36 at intermission. The Knicks had 13 field goals and 12 turnovers in the first half, and their best scoring option was Richardson, who had made a total of seven three-pointers coming in.
> 
> "That's the way I play," Richardson said after finding his stroke. "I never remember my last shot."
> 
> In the third quarter, the Jazz had trouble remembering the last time they scored. They led 40-37 with 10:46 remaining only to be outscored 14-0 over the next 10 minutes. Utah's drought ended with 1:17 remaining when starting guard Milt Palacio converted a layup. The mock ovation was the loudest noise the crowd made all night.
> 
> "We weren't making shots and they weren't making shots, so I couldn't imagine how it was for a fan," Curry said. "For us to beat a team that was on top, it was a great win."


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The Knicks, whose leading players in minutes played in order are Stephon Marbury, Jamal Crawford, AD, Q, and Curry are currently rated the #2 team in the NBA in defense.

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2006/d_de.htm

Bulls are 13th.

Bizzaro world. 











Its probably just the schedule. Right?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The Knicks opponents' haven't exactly been offensive juggernauts, judging by their NBA ranking in Points Scored:

Boston 13th
Washington 3rd
Golden State (twice) 18th
Portland 29th
Sacramento 22nd
Utah 26th

So is it "just the schedule"? Of course not. But does the schedule play a part? I would guess that it does.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> The Knicks opponents' haven't exactly been offensive juggernauts, judging by their NBA ranking in Points Scored:
> 
> Boston 13th
> Washington 3rd
> Golden State (twice) 18th
> Portland 29th
> Sacramento 22nd
> Utah 26th
> 
> So is it "just the schedule"? Of course not. But does the schedule play a part? I would guess that it does.



one could also look at it like this 

the knicks just played a team the bulls just played and their defensive ranking went up ...and the bulls just played a team the knicks have played twice and their defensive ranking shot down.

anyone with sense knows the warriors are better than the 18th best offensive team, but playing the knicks 2 times (as well as the bulls btw)has adversely affected their ranking....why because the knicks and bulls are good defensive teams.( but the warriors are also the best ranked defensive team , in no small part i am sure because they have played both the knicks and bulls in half their games)

i am tempted to say the same about the kings who have over the past 8 or so years have been a top 5 offensive team.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

New York only one win behind us in the win column. Are we on the verge of a meltdown?


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



futuristxen said:


> New York only one win behind us in the win column. Are we on the verge of a meltdown?


 La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La, La.

I can't hear you.


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

yes two wins against Sac one of the worst teams in the nba and utah without two of its best three players. Next NY will beat duke.

Seriously if they win other game on this road trip i will notice but right now they are still a lotto team, period.

dg


----------



## TRUTHHURTS

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



giusd said:


> yes two wins against Sac one of the worst teams in the nba and utah without two of its best three players. Next NY will beat duke.
> 
> Seriously if they win other game on this road trip i will notice but right now they are still a lotto team, period.
> 
> dg



Wow so you're saying the games dont count ? Are you saying we should go back through the bulls win last year and take out all the games in which 

A. a team didnt have its best players 

B. were not considered good ? 

The knicks by tomorrow night could have a better record then we do. Would that make us a lotto ? 

The cockiness that has surrounded the Bulls honestly needs to stop.We've gotten to the point were we are dissing teams like were the Spurs of Pistons after one good season.

When I look at last years playoffs standings I dont see an asterisk by the wizards name as having only won because we didnt have Deng and Curry. 

All games count !! In the east this year those type of games could mean the difference between 7th seed and 10th seed .


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TRUTHHURTS said:


> The knicks by tomorrow night could have a better record then we do. Would that make us a lotto ?


Ummmmmm... The Bulls are 3-3. If they lose tomorrow, they'll be 3-4. The Knicks are 2-5. If they win tomorrow, they'll be 3-5. I'll let you figure out the rest.


----------



## TRUTHHURTS

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

:greatjob: :greatjob:


fl_flash said:


> Ummmmmm... The Bulls are 3-3. If they lose tomorrow, they'll be 3-4. The Knicks are 2-5. If they win tomorrow, they'll be 3-5. I'll let you figure out the rest.


so 3-4 is better than 3-5 ? :greatjob: :biggrin:


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TRUTHHURTS said:


> :greatjob: :greatjob:
> 
> so 3-4 is better than 3-5 ? :greatjob: :biggrin:


Last time I checked it was.


----------



## townknave

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

It also bears mentioning that the Knicks have played 71% of their games on the road this far, while the Bulls have only played 33%... Maybe our teams are closer than y'all think?


----------



## lgtwins

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/051116


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



lgtwins said:


> http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/051116





> Antonio Davis (who was finished two years ago)


Wow. Not a very nice thing to say about good old AD. Especially with so many here missing him.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I'll watch the Knicks game tonight with a fair amount of curiousity. At this point, I think it's hard to determine whether or not their past two games are 'meaningful' in the sense that they're indicative of the team really improving, or their past two wins are a paper tiger and just the product of them playing crap teams at inopportune times. 

But, the Lakers are at least half decent, and playing them on their homecourt should be a reasonable litmus test of how well they're actually playing right now.


----------



## TRUTHHURTS

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Those sorry knicks are #1 in opp. fg% :jawdrop:


----------



## lgtwins

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Again, statistics this early on mean nothing pretty much. 

Just the same thing happens in major league baseball every single time when the season started. There always couple of hitters went crazy hot who were never big time hitter. But in the end they all fall back to their own places and true hitters rise up on top of the stat columns midseason.

Any stat this early on NBA doesn't mean much. If Knicks can sustain opp fg % till the end of December, then I will tip my hat off for them.


----------



## dkg1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



lgtwins said:


> Again, statistics this early on mean nothing pretty much.
> 
> Just the same thing happens in major league baseball every single time when the season started. There always couple of hitters went crazy hot who were never big time hitter. But in the end they all fall back to their own places and true hitters rise up on top of the stat columns midseason.
> 
> .


Remember "Tuffy" Rhodes hit something like 3 home runs on Opening Day for the Cubs sometime back? He was on pace to hit like 486 home runs that year.


----------



## NYKBaller

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Can't wait till Nov 30th....


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



NYKBaller said:


> Can't wait till Nov 30th....


 Can't wait 'till draft day. [official smack as began]


----------



## SausageKingofChicago

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

What about Channing Frye though 

Knicks are lucky bastits to have him 

Still..even the sun shines on a dog's arse someday


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I wonder how long it'll be before Channing Frye is starting for New York. That kid impressed me tonight. He is a really good shooter, and just has good basketball skills. He could stand to get better on the boards and in the paint, obviously with some muscle and development, but even until then, he is already a good player. 

Mihm and Curry pretty much played to a standstill tonight.


----------



## jbulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I wonder how long it'll be before Channing Frye is starting for New York. That kid impressed me tonight. He is a really good shooter, and just has good basketball skills. He could stand to get better on the boards and in the paint, obviously with some muscle and development, but even until then, he is already a good player.
> 
> Mihm and Curry pretty much played to a standstill tonight.


Frye looks like the real deal. I watched the game tonight and he looked great, as he has every time I've had a chance to see the Knicks play this year. I have a feeling there's going to be a pretty major shakeup in NY soon, at the end of tonight's contest LB was playing Frye, Lee and Robinson - with more than 2 minutes left while it was a 6 or 7 point game. I like Lee, I'm not sold on Robinson yet though.

Curry looked very good. He's attacking the glass with more (any) ferocity so far this season. Mihm has quietly turned into a pretty decent player. He's a legitimately sized active 5 who rebounds decently and blocks shots. I thought Curry pretty much had his way with him though - Mihm isn't bulky enough to do much against Eddy. It strikes me that the guys Eddy has trouble with are opposing centers who match up with him in terms of height and mass - Brendan Haywood, Jason Collins etc...Mihm is just too slight to have much of an impact vs. Curry in the post. If Sweetney hadn't been such a beast tonight it would've been rather depressing seeing Eddy play the way he did.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I wonder how long it'll be before Channing Frye is starting for New York. That kid impressed me tonight. He is a really good shooter, and just has good basketball skills. He could stand to get better on the boards and in the paint, obviously with some muscle and development, but even until then, he is already a good player.
> 
> Mihm and Curry pretty much played to a standstill tonight.


Nah, Frye is pretty skinny. I think he'll be fine starting 4. They'll be able to start Frye and Curry together I think. That's a daunting front line, right? Curry with Tyson Chandler with a jumper.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



jbulls said:


> I thought Curry pretty much had his way with him though - Mihm isn't bulky enough to do much against Eddy.


Curry was scoring fairly easily tonight on Mihm, but we know scoring is his strength. Where they played even was the fact that Mihm was scoring easy on Curry too. I can think of a couple plays off the top where Mihm scored on Curry. 14 and 9 for Mihm, 17 and 7 for Curry. Both scored efficiently. 

I agree though, Mihm has turned into a pretty solid bigman, I thought he was a solid big last year too. He is deceptively athletic for his size, and has a pretty good feel for the game for a big.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> Nah, Frye is pretty skinny. I think he'll be fine starting 4. They'll be able to start Frye and Curry together I think. That's a daunting front line, right? Curry with Tyson Chandler with a jumper.


Tyson Chandler with a jumper, minus the rebounding. Frye still isn't a good rebounder, he is about as good as Curry. They'd get killed on the boards even more than they did tonight. They were talking at halftime about what I said would be their downfall, rebounding. Everyone went to halftime with the impression that the Knicks played a very good half and the Lakers played below average, but Lakers were still up 2, simply because of rebounding. 

Davis is the best rebounder they have. They need him in there.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Tyson Chandler with a jumper, minus the rebounding. Frye still isn't a good rebounder, he is about as good as Curry. They'd get killed on the boards even more than they did tonight. They were talking at halftime about what I said would be their downfall, rebounding. Everyone went to halftime with the impression that the Knicks played a very good half and the Lakers played below average, but Lakers were still up 2, simply because of rebounding.
> 
> Davis is the best rebounder they have. They need him in there.


Channing Frye ranks #9 in the NBA in Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(15.4). 

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/channing_frye/index.html

5.7 rebounds per game in less than 18 minutes? Common Patchwork, you can do better than that. He's shown more rebounding potential than Curry in six NBA games.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I guess he is better than I thought, I didn't know he was playing that little minutes. He should be playing more, but I'm still not sold on his rebounding. Those rebounding numbers you posted are driven by his first game, where he had 9 rebounds in 18 minutes. 

In the last 6 games, he is averaging 4.6 rebounds in 20 minutes. Tonight he played 30+ minutes for the first time and grabbed only 3 rebounds, and 2 of them were offensive. 

He is a better rebounder than Curry, but then again so are a lot of shooting guards.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I guess he is better than I thought, I didn't know he was playing that little minutes. He should be playing more, but I'm still not sold on his rebounding. Those rebounding numbers you posted are driven by his first game, where he had 9 rebounds in 18 minutes.
> 
> In the last 6 games, he is averaging 4.6 rebounds in 20 minutes. Tonight he played 30+ minutes for the first time and grabbed only 3 rebounds, and 2 of them were offensive.
> 
> He is a better rebounder than Curry, but then again so are a lot of shooting guards.


Keep in mind that this kid's a rookie, despite having the college seasoning Curry didn't have. He might not show everything he's got quite yet. I personally think they'll be a hell of a front line pairing.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Like I said, I'm impressed with him. I wish he was on our team. But the Knicks need rebounders in their frontcourt, so they'd have to choose between Frye and Curry in the lineup. It seems like they'll probably only be able to have one of them on the court at the same time, for now, until Frye becomes a good rebounder. 

Tonight they played a great first half, and the Lakers played mediocre or worse, and the Knicks were still down at half. Not because the Lakers are some great team, these are probably both lottery teams, but the Knicks rebounding is horrid, and was the reason they lost. 

David Lee is a good rebounder. They'll probably need to keep Frye with one of Lee/Davis, and Curry with the other.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> Channing Frye...wow, this guy continues to surprise me. I really wish he were a Bull. Would be a great fit next to Chandler. But keeping things in perspective, we should realize that Frye is the Knicks' prize for stinking it up last year. I truly believe that if LB decides to play Frye and he produces, then the Knicks will turn it around (unfortunately); a real x-factor for that team.
> .


Once again, I say...wow.

I really wonder how anyone could doubt this guy's potential. He looks tremendous.


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

knicks go down to the Nuggets and the Bulls move 1/82nd of a step closer towards draft bliss. Frye had another big game going for 22 points and 8 boards on 8-17 shooting. Looks like Q Rich is in the doghouse playing only 7 minutes. Knicks are 2-7 and are 2 games behind Toronto and Atlanta in the draft rankings.


----------



## jbulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



such sweet thunder said:


> knicks go down to the Nuggets and the Bulls move 1/82nd of a step closer towards draft bliss. Frye had another big game going for 22 points and 8 boards on 8-17 shooting. Looks like Q Rich is in the doghouse playing only 7 minutes. Knicks are 2-7 and are 2 games behind Toronto and Atlanta in the draft rankings.


Trevor Ariza played just 7 minutes. I thought he'd be one of the guys Brown would really take a shine to, I guess not...


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Knicks are still rated the #3 team in the NBA in defense, quite high, as most Larry Brown teams are.

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2006/d_de.htm


Bulls are 16th.



Knicks are the worst offensive team in the league.

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2006/o_oe.htm

Bulls are 25th.

Yes, this is the Knicks team with Stephon Marbury, Eddy Curry and Jamal Crawford being the top 3 in minutes played.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> Once again, I say...wow.
> 
> I really wonder how anyone could doubt this guy's potential. He looks tremendous.


I agree, this guy is showing a lot more skill than I saw from him in college. Very impressive. As is David Lee and Ariza. That is nice core frontcourt for the future of that team. Along with Curry, of course.


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2005112018&prov=ap

New York 103, Portland 92

NEW YORK (AP) -- New York Knicks coach Larry Brown had a feeling that Stephon Marbury was ready for a breakout game. 

Marbury scored a season-high 27 points Sunday to help New York beat the Portland Trail Blazers 103-92, giving Brown his first Knicks victory at Madison Square Garden. 

"I thought Steph was phenomenal," Brown said. "I loved the way he was being aggressive. I told people before the game he would play great."


Marbury's cousin Sebastian Telfair had a career-high 27 points for the Blazers in his return home. 

"Getting a chance to play at the Garden is a special thing," Telfair said. "I give it to the Knicks, they won." 

Channing Frye added 20 points and Jamal Crawford had 19 for New York. Zach Randolph had 17 points and Darius Miles added 16 for the Blazers, who opened a seven-game road trip. 

Marbury left the game with 44.2 seconds left and New York leading 103-92, drawing a standing ovation. 

"It's always great to win," Marbury said. "Winning for coach being that it was his first game."


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



DaBullz said:


> http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2005112018&prov=ap
> 
> New York 103, Portland 92
> 
> NEW YORK (AP) -- New York Knicks coach Larry Brown had a feeling that Stephon Marbury was ready for a breakout game.
> 
> Marbury scored a season-high 27 points Sunday to help New York beat the Portland Trail Blazers 103-92, giving Brown his first Knicks victory at Madison Square Garden.
> 
> "I thought Steph was phenomenal," Brown said. "I loved the way he was being aggressive. I told people before the game he would play great."
> 
> 
> Marbury's cousin Sebastian Telfair had a career-high 27 points for the Blazers in his return home.
> 
> "Getting a chance to play at the Garden is a special thing," Telfair said. "I give it to the Knicks, they won."
> 
> Channing Frye added 20 points and Jamal Crawford had 19 for New York. Zach Randolph had 17 points and Darius Miles added 16 for the Blazers, who opened a seven-game road trip.
> 
> Marbury left the game with 44.2 seconds left and New York leading 103-92, drawing a standing ovation.
> 
> "It's always great to win," Marbury said. "Winning for coach being that it was his first game."


Curry played 17 minutes, going 3-4 and 6-10 FT for 12 points. Just 2 rebounds.

Crawford went 5-14 and 7-7 FT for 19 points to go with 5 rebounds and 4 assists.

AD 3-4 FG for 6 points and 5 rebounds.


----------



## NYKBaller

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

curry has a calf injury


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Curry played 17 minutes, going 3-4 and 6-10 FT for 12 points. Just 2 rebounds.
> 
> Crawford went 5-14 and 7-7 FT for 19 points to go with 5 rebounds and 4 assists.


Jamal (4 TO) and Eddy (2 TO) also combined to commit 6 of the Knicks' 13 turnovers, just to be fair.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Channing Frye will end up playing more minutes per game this season than Curry. Kid is just balling.


----------



## truth

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Channing Frye will end up playing more minutes per game this season than Curry. Kid is just balling.


If Channing Frye keeps this up,he will be playing more than any Knick on the squad...The guys stroke looks like Alan Houstons and he has range out to 3...

Zeke may suck in free agency and making trades,but he is simply amazing at drafting talent



BTW,Curry is also the perfect complement to Curry,assuming Curry ever learns to pass out of the double...


----------



## Hustle

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truth said:


> If Channing Frye keeps this up,he will be playing more than any Knick on the squad...The guys stroke looks like Alan Houstons and he has range out to 3...
> 
> *Zeke may suck in free agency and making trades,but he is simply amazing at drafting talent*
> 
> BTW,Curry is also the perfect complement to Curry,assuming Curry ever learns to pass out of the double...


Actually Lee and Frye were no-brainers for the Knicks considering who was left and their needs, so I'm not going to call Zeke an amazing drafter, but the 2 should certainly work out well for them.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Hustle said:


> Actually Lee and Frye were no-brainers for the Knicks considering who was left and their needs, so I'm not going to call Zeke an amazing drafter, but the 2 should certainly work out well for them.



were they really i remember the frye selection and IT's selection of him getting roundly criticized saying he should have drafted a bunch of other different guys , (bynum, diogu, g.green, granger warrick and antione wright) .

as for Lee no one ever said it was a bad pick , but there were people clamoring that he would take someone else because the knicks have a bunch of 4's, and there were other 4's people said should have been considered , (Taft, turiaf, and blatche) the further you go in the draft the more of a crapshoot it is.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

A nice compliment/comparison for Frye:



> "I wasn't aware how well he could shoot the ball," Brown said of the 6-foot-11 Frye, who, after an inconsistent summer and a preseason plagued by foul trouble, is averaging 13.2 points a game while playing an average of 21.3 minutes. "He can really shoot it."
> 
> Brown, who pronounces Frye's first name without a "g" at the end, added that such shooting was "something you can't teach."
> 
> Then, referring to the former Knicks center Patrick Ewing, Brown added, "You can become a better shooter in the pros because we have so much time to work on it, but to shoot it *as well as Patrick or he does - that's a gift*."


I wonder if he was ever part of the discussions in the big Knicks/Bulls trade.



> Brown, who has been hesitant to embrace rookies, most recently in the case of Darko Milicic when Brown was coach of the Detroit Pistons, sounded almost smitten with Frye.
> 
> He said that Frye was a hard worker and "an amazing kid" and had only one fault - that he did not go to Brown's beloved alma mater, North Carolina (Frye went to Arizona).
> 
> "But he did O.K.," Brown said.


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/22/s...l=1&adxnnlx=1132705151-OR5z+OZse5qDsgQYW1HC8Q


----------



## johnston797

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truth said:


> Zeke may suck in free agency and making trades,but he is simply amazing at drafting talent


He also drafted TMAC, Camby and Damon Stoudamire at Toronto


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> A nice compliment/comparison for Frye:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if he was ever part of the discussions in the big Knicks/Bulls trade.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/22/s...l=1&adxnnlx=1132705151-OR5z+OZse5qDsgQYW1HC8Q



Frye reminds me a lot of a young Tim Duncan. I thought he would be a bust, mainly because I did not see much of him on the collegiate level, but I was definitley wrong, he is going to be a huge star.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> A nice compliment/comparison for Frye:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if he was ever part of the discussions in the big Knicks/Bulls trade.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/22/s...l=1&adxnnlx=1132705151-OR5z+OZse5qDsgQYW1HC8Q


I remember reading that Skiles inquired about Frye as part of a deal and Zeke said no way.


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> I remember reading that Skiles inquired about Frye as part of a deal and Zeke said no way.


Would of preferred still if he could of swindled Lee/ Ariza. Frye was untouchable pretty much, but its silly how he couldn't of gotten either of the former two.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Knicks fall tonight. No center available to report for duty (yeah, Frye was there, but he's gonna be a 4 with Eddy around)...but it was Rush and Wallace who had big nights...along with Okafur.


----------



## Sixerfanforlife

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Saturday cannot come soon enough (Sixers fan but I want to see Greg Oden (the next Jordan) In a bulls uni)


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> Knicks fall tonight. No center available to report for duty (yeah, Frye was there, but he's gonna be a 4 with Eddy around)...but it was Rush and Wallace who had big nights...along with Okafur.


 In addition to the knicks falling, Oklahoma, Atlanta, Charlotte, and Sacremento got victories. The Knick are going to come around and finish respectably. But, in this strange parity filled year, they still might pass along the third draft slot. 

Toronto and Atlanta will finish at the bottom. After that, Chris Paul is playing like an All-star and seems to have single handedly raised Charlotte out of the dumps. I don't expect the Rockets to continue their slump. Charlotte is deeper and more balanced and seem ready to compete. 

This is a strange, strange, season. Knick win 32-35 games and still pass along an unprotected third draft slot? All hail Secauaucus!


----------



## Sixerfanforlife

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Chris Paul (Oklahoma) It's actually Raymond Felton and Sean May Ironically both are from UNC.


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Sixerfanforlife said:


> Chris Paul (Oklahoma) It's actually Raymond Felton and Sean May Ironically both are from UNC.


Actually, my slip was from the other side. I accidentally said Charlotte instead of the Hornets or wherever the hell the team is located now. . .


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

T-minus 4 days...and counting! 

:biggrin:


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> T-minus 4 days...and counting!
> 
> :biggrin:


I wish that it was a game that was on ESPN. 

I don't know why they decide before the season which games to pick - Friday's Bulls/Spurs game would have been a great national game instead of what they had. And on Christmas day - the Heat/Lakers match could end up being a huge turkey. 

Although having access to radio for Wednesday's game is better than having no access to anything like I had this weekend. I was a lonely Bulls fan.


----------



## anorexorcist

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



narek said:


> I wish that it was a game that was on ESPN.
> 
> I don't know why they decide before the season which games to pick - Friday's Bulls/Spurs game would have been a great national game instead of what they had. And on Christmas day - the Heat/Lakers match could end up being a huge turkey.
> 
> Although having access to radio for Wednesday's game is better than having no access to anything like I had this weekend. I was a lonely Bulls fan.


we have no allstars, thus we'll hardly get the espn treatment.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

FWIW, the Knicks are 4-3 after their terrible start. Might they be turning it around? Let's hope not.

Go Bulls!


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Kuck the Fnicks. 

This is about more then money. 

This is about more then pride. 

This is about draft position . . . draft position, man.


----------



## spongyfungy

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

ouch? 

 "He's not a point guard. Right now he's a highlight reel." *-- Knicks coach Larry Brown, on the untamed game of 5-foot-9 first-round pick Nate Robinson.

* Brown Showing True Colors



> *HOOP DU JOUR* *N*OT yet on the job two months and already Larry Brown has revealed his true self. Still, just in case New York's sophisticated fans and picky press aren't giving the Knicks' coach their undivided attention, I offer the following self-evident truths for perusal: For starters, the frequently told fairy tale about him being hard on point guards has been forever demystified. Brown is hard on everyone, those that play for him, anyway.
> 
> After each and every loss, sometimes even following a win, you can count on Brown to unravel at least one of his players and glorify an opponent.
> 
> "That's Larry in a nutshell," one of his former prized pupils substantiates. "He loves everyone on the other side and hates everyone on his team, except the last guy on the roster whose hustle and attitude Larry uses as an example to motivate everyone else."
> 
> So far, off the top of my head, Brown has professed love for Eric Snow, Larry Hughes, Baron Davis, Kevin Ollie, George Lynch and Brevin Knight.
> 
> Give Brown a little more time and a few more leading questions and Brown is bound to playa hate 99 percent of the payroll, including Allan Houston, in the same manner he's dishonorably mentioned Stephon Marbury, Nate Robinson, Jerome James, Quentin Richardson, Jamaal Crawford and Eddy Curry; I apologize if I've left anyone out.
> 
> It's worthy of note that Red Holzman, the man Brown supposedly emulates and idolizes, never spoke unfavorably about one of his players, on or off the record. If they deserved it, Holzman would let them know what he thought of their effort or execution. But once he left the locker room to meet the media, he never came close to uttering a disparaging word about the team or any individual.
> 
> <table align="left"><tbody><tr><td> <script language="JavaScript"> <!-- OAS_AD('Middle'); //--> </script>
> </td></tr></tbody></table>
> 
> Neal Walk once told me how much the players appreciated Holzman's golden silence, no matter how bad things got. As a beat reporter on deadline, I hated his refusal to give up anything moderately meaty or remotely juicy to spice up my space.
> 
> But I always respected the hell out of Holzman and disrespect coaches like Brown and Bryon Scott, and many, many others (it's "they" when their team loses and "we" after wins), who try to make themselves look good by divulging what their players did wrong and expounding on it.
> 
> "Veterans get weary in a hurry hearing their names dragged through the mud by Brown," underlines the prized pupil. "Young guys grin or grimace but accept it, until the moment they're established."
> 
> If Holzman were alive, I guarantee you he'd seek out Brown, one Hall of Famer to another, and try to impress upon him how disloyal his nightly exposés make him look.
> 
> It's a shame nobody living off Brown has ever been man enough to do it. Either that, or he doesn't want to listen to anybody who tells him something he doesn't want to hear.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



spongyfungy said:


> ouch?
> 
> "He's not a point guard. Right now he's a highlight reel." *-- Knicks coach Larry Brown, on the untamed game of 5-foot-9 first-round pick Nate Robinson.
> 
> * Brown Showing True Colors


and then robinson has his best game as a pro, hitting a winning shot in an OT game vs. the 76ers, its hard to argue his methods when they work so well. although i would want is for coaches not to drag their players through the mud.


----------



## NYKBaller

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Da Grinch said:


> and then robinson has his best game as a pro, hitting a winning shot in an OT game vs. the 76ers, its hard to argue his methods when they work so well. although i would want is for coaches not to drag their players through the mud.


Scott Skiles anyone?


----------



## Hustle

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> "Eddy Curry is expected to miss his third-straight game tonight because of his injured calf. "He's not going to play against Miami," Brown said. "He still has discomfort. We don't want to rush him back." Curry said he is hopeful to be ready to play against his ex-team, the Bulls, in Chicago on Wednesday. Brown didn't sound that optimistic." New York Post


I don't know whether I would rather see Eddy play or if I'd rather him sit out so our chances of winning are better.


----------



## anorexorcist

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

^^They are playing better w/o him than they are with him, at least from what I've seen. He slows their offense down considerably, just like he did when he was with us. I think their uptempo game has been able to shine since he's been out. Let's hope he gets better soon so they can start losing again and the guaranteed "highness" of our draft pick is secure once again 

-Z-


----------



## lister333

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

three quarters played against the miami heat shaqless and so far the rookies frye and robinson looked so much more confortable on the court than the other veterans. Quentin Richardson is totatlly cold . Did he lost his poise?


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



lister333 said:


> three quarters played against the miami heat shaqless and so far the rookies frye and robinson looked so much more confortable on the court than the other veterans. Quentin Richardson is totatlly cold . Did he lost his poise?


 :eek8: 

I just caught the score of the Heat-Knicks. I wonder if AD is playing for us afterall...wonder how long it takes Isiah to realize that he's gonna help us land a lotto pick.  J/k, of course, but man what an ugly score.


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The knicks still seemed lost tonight but i agree robinson and frye do look really good. This team is the worst mix of players i have ever seen. i just dont see them developing any real chemistry but maybe i am wrong. I still say we get the 8th pick in next years draft and 18th or 19th pick for our pick. That and 20 million in cap space should really help get the last two things the teams needs. That is another big man and a tall, physicial SG.

That should really fillout the team and after that look out. Or we could packagae our picks to move up into the top three picks to get a SG and sign other big man we need.

david


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*










Stern: And with the first pick in the 2006 NBA Draft,

Crowd: [loud boos]

Stern: The Chicago Bulls select. . . 

Crowd: [loud boos]


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Stern: And with the first pick in the 2006 NBA Draft,
> 
> Crowd: [loud boos]
> 
> Stern: The Chicago Bulls select. . .
> 
> Crowd: [loud boos]


That would be amusing if it did happen. NY fans would be after some blood.


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

It is WAY too soon to even speculate that the Knicks pick will even be a lottery pick IMO.


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Too late. I've already begun.


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I watched the game to day and the knicks looked just awful. And lost to boston of all team at home. And it is not like boston is going to the post season. Now NY is off for a rough three game road trip and they are 5 and 11. No way does NY make the playoffs and i think we are looking at a top seven draft pick. With luck at top three. I think the knicks are heading for a road trip meltdown. This pick could really come in handy with TT for a trade before the trade deadline.

david


----------



## The ROY

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

well, they DEF ain't going to the playoffs...

I think they'll be FORCED to make some moves before deadline though..


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Nothing is for certain this early in the season. I'm not counting anybody out of the playoffs, except perhaps Atlanta and Toronto. Teams have rebounded from much worse than 5-11 before. With that said, I never considered NY a playoff team, but I would hate to eat my words later on.


----------



## dkg1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ace20004u said:


> It is WAY too soon to even speculate that the Knicks pick will even be a lottery pick IMO.



Whether it's a lotto pick or not, do you think we can get Zeke to make the pick for us? I never thought I would admit this but he has done a good job with his drafts so far. Frye was a heckuva pickup. As was Ariza and Wood. Robinson looks like he could be a player as well.


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

FWIW

Knicks are 4-6 in their last 10 games
Bulls are 5-5

Knicks are 2.5 games out of a playoff spot.

It's not even 25% of the season over yet.

Knicks played a bunch of games without Curry.

They're playing under a new coach and system.

They did beat us.

They lost to Golden State twice by two points each time, and Boston by 3 in OT.

If they don't adopt the "season is a wash" mentality, they might get over the hump and learn to win some of these close games.

A 4 game win streak (which the Bulls have had) makes them a playoff contender right now.


----------



## RoRo

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



dkg1 said:


> Whether it's a lotto pick or not, do you think we can get Zeke to make the pick for us? I never thought I would admit this but he has done a good job with his drafts so far. Frye was a heckuva pickup. As was Ariza and Wood. Robinson looks like he could be a player as well.


add jackie butler to the list. he's only 20 but looks like a 6-10 sweetney so far. good hands, a nose for the ball and great composure in the paint - he knows how to finish strong.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



DaBullz said:


> FWIW
> 
> Knicks are 4-6 in their last 10 games
> Bulls are 5-5
> 
> Knicks are 2.5 games out of a playoff spot.
> 
> It's not even 25% of the season over yet.
> 
> Knicks played a bunch of games without Curry.
> 
> They're playing under a new coach and system.
> 
> They did beat us.
> 
> They lost to Golden State twice by two points each time, and Boston by 3 in OT.
> 
> If they don't adopt the "season is a wash" mentality, they might get over the hump and learn to win some of these close games.
> 
> A 4 game win streak (which the Bulls have had) makes them a playoff contender right now.


Good points, but... (there's always a 'but' in life, it seems)

The Knicks are actually only 2 games out of a playoff spot behind the 3 teams tied for first in the Craplantic. I don't know about any tiebreakers at this time, though.

The Knicks are 3-8 (.273) when Eddy plays and 2-3 (.400) when he doesn't, so not having him available for 5 games might actually have HELPED the Knicks instead of hurting them. 

The Knicks next 4 games are @SEA, @LAC, @PHO and MIL, so a 4-game losing streak is infinitely more probable than a 4 game losing streak right now.


You certainly can't count the Knicks out of the playoff picture this early, and probably not at any time during the season since the Atlantic is possibly the worst division in NBA history (8-10 and a .444 winning percentage is currently good for 1st place).

And everyone knows Brown can coach a little, and the team's slow start might help him persuade Isiah to trade for some Brown-friendly players quicker than he might have before. If the Knicks lose their next 4 and fall to 5-15, they will be calling for Zeke's head before they call for Brown's.

As great as it is to see the Knicks sitting there with the 5th-worst record in the league, it's still waaaaay to early to get very excited over it.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> The Knicks next 4 games are @SEA, @LAC, @PHO and MIL, so a 4-game losing streak is infinitely more probable than a 4 game losing streak right now.
> 
> 
> You certainly can't count the Knicks out of the playoff picture this early, and probably not at any time during the season since the Atlantic is possibly the worst division in NBA history (8-10 and a .444 winning percentage is currently good for 1st place).
> 
> And everyone knows Brown can coach a little, and the team's slow start might help him persuade Isiah to trade for some Brown-friendly players quicker than he might have before. If the Knicks lose their next 4 and fall to 5-15, they will be calling for Zeke's head before they call for Brown's.
> 
> As great as it is to see the Knicks sitting there with the 5th-worst record in the league, it's still waaaaay to early to get very excited over it.


I agree with this, especially the waaaaay too early part...


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The Future Is Now

Though Larry Brown at last seems to have at last bitten off more than he can chew with these New York Knicks, history shows that the Peripatetic Prince always gets his teams to the playoffs by his second season. Therefore, I would not presume to tell Larry Brown how to do his job.

Then again, being a sports writer, actually I would.

New York, see, is a tough town, and even the great ones need some help from time to time. For this week's five-pack, then, I offer, with all due modesty, a blueprint for Brown to get the seemingly lottery-bound Knicks to the postseason ... this year.

This year? Well, I have to say this year. Because by next year Brown will have done it himself, right?

So, here we go:

1. As exasperating as it might be at times, utilize the three-guard Stephon Marbury-Jamal Crawford-Nate Robinson system that worked well in the second half of a 105-102 overtime victory over the Philadelphia 76ers last Saturday at the Garden. Not exclusively, of course. But often.

By now, everyone who follows the NBA is aware of Brown's belief (borne out by facts) that he does not have a true point guard. Marbury has always been more 2 than 1, and despite Crawford's wispy build (190 pounds on a 6-foot-5 frame), the same is true for him. 

2. Open it up on offense and defense from time to time. 

Throw in a fullcourt press, see if you can turn Trevor Ariza into a Garden-pleasing kamikaze defender. Don't go ballistic if the point guards kick it away in transition once in a while. Get Quentin Richardson to hurl up some 3-point shots. (How is Q going to help them otherwise?) The Knicks have to find a way to re-define themselves as a scrappy, blue-collar team. Granted, this is hard to do when your payroll matches the GNP of most Central American countries. But to this point the talent hasn't integrated itself nearly well enough to win any other way besides ugly. But the Garden fans will love that type of team.

3. Though forward Channing Frye is only a rookie, let him know (quietly!) that he is the future of the franchise, for he is preternaturally mature and skilled. 

On a couple of occasions this year, when things have gone sour in the backcourt, Frye has kept the Knicks in games. He has finesse, smarts and guts. Dispatch a shooting coach to shadow him in the offseason and improve his shooting range out to 20 feet. Show him tapes of Karl Malone and remind him that what set The Mailman apart from other inside guys was his shooting touch.

4. Staying with the big-man theme, Brown must find a way to endure the defenseless Eddy Curry at center. 

I don't know if Curry will ever live up to the nickname of "Baby Shaq" he earned when the Chicago Bulls made him the fourth pick of the 2001 draft. I do know that he is enormously skilled and, on this team, a necessary go-to option when the shot clock winds down. Plus, he is a rarity -- a true back-to-the-basket center.

On the other hand, Curry is not Brown's type of guy. That is obvious. Curry doesn't seem to like coaching and he doesn't seem to like defense. But Thomas worked long and hard to get him to New York (Curry has a mysterious heart ailment that frightened the Bulls) and he's not going anywhere soon. So Brown should refrain from lambasting him in the papers every day.

What does playing Curry big minutes mean to another center, Jerome James, another Thomas trade acquisition? Well, that's a problem, and I'm glad it's not mine. But I'd try to get the underachieving but talented Curry going, rather than the underachieving, undertalented James.

5. Cement the veteran leadership, but don't turn the team over to the graybeards.

Brown has at his disposal two of the all-time best team-first guys in the NBA in Malik Rose and Antonio Davis. I never felt that way about Penny Hardaway, a me-first guy early in his career (then again, he had talent that Davis and Rose could only dream about), but I guess he now qualifies as an elder statesmen, too. Brown desperately needs them to get the young players to start drinking the Kool-Aid.

But -- and this is tricky -- Brown has to monitor their minutes. When he becomes displeased with young players, Brown's history is to go with his vets, the tried-and-true warriors. But at this stage of their careers, the warriors don't have a lot left, especially Davis, who has hung on the last couple of years only because of his estimable locker-room presence. (This may all be moot, of course, if some of the warriors are moved; Hardaway is a prime candidate because some team may want to take on his expiring contract.)


--------------------

Much more at the link.

I think the writer makes some good points, LB can coach but he needs his type of players. Or he needs to adjust his coaching style to fit his players, which isn't going to happen.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

the "_Peripatetic Prince_?"

:laugh:


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> the "_Peripatetic Prince_?"
> 
> :laugh:


I never thought of LB as being an Aristotelian, but hey, it fits.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

C'mon, can't you just see Larry walking up and down Broadway, preaching his basketball philosophies to the disciples?


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Trouble in paradise?

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=sheridan_chris#20051205

Another Q for Knicks?
posted: Monday, December 5, 2005 
[Chris Sheridan]

Qyntel Woods is in line to become Larry Brown's newest reclamation project.

The New York Knicks were trying to bring Woods to Seattle for a workout Monday, and if all went well,they were expected to sign him as their newest small forward, three sources told ESPN.com.

A roster spot opened over the weekend when Matt Barnes, the opening night starter at small forward, was waived unexpectedly at the conclusion of practice Saturday. 

Brown did not give a detailed explanation Sunday when questioned by reporters regarding the sudden departure of Barnes, who started in five of his six appearances for New York and averaged 4.3 points on 37 percent shooting with 4.0 rebounds. One source said Barnes was somewhat of a loner in a locker room where camaraderie is one of the intangibles Brown is trying to develop.


----------



## rlucas4257

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I dont know about meltdown or whats going on there. They are sure worse then I thought they would be. But Channing Frye? Man, he is the real deal. He is going to be a big time star.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



rlucas4257 said:


> I dont know about meltdown or whats going on there. They are sure worse then I thought they would be. But Channing Frye? Man, he is the real deal. He is going to be a big time star.


Preach on, brother. I've watched a lot of Knicks games this year and the kid truly impresses. He looks lke he's going to be big time, for a long time.


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

When I watch the young talent the Knicks have drafted it makes me wonder why they have traded away so many of their draft picks. Isiah's strength is Saucaucus -- someone should make sure he keeps his place at the table.


----------



## rlucas4257

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Preach on, brother. I've watched a lot of Knicks games this year and the kid truly impresses. He looks lke he's going to be big time, for a long time.


He is what I wished Tyson Chandler would have been.


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



dkg1 said:


> Whether it's a lotto pick or not, do you think we can get Zeke to make the pick for us? I never thought I would admit this but he has done a good job with his drafts so far. Frye was a heckuva pickup. As was Ariza and Wood. Robinson looks like he could be a player as well.


Yeah really, Zeke has definitley shown a great eye for talent. Frye is incredible and Robinson and Lee look pretty darn good too!


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Knicks fact of the day - the Knicks have now started 12 different players in only 16 different games. And I'll bet my nuts that at some point, the remaining 4 (Lee, Butler, Woods and Penny) get to start at least one each too.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



rlucas4257 said:


> He is what I wished Tyson Chandler would have been.


that hits it right on the nosey.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The Knicks are now 6-11, a mere 1.5 games out of first in their division and only 2.5 games behind the Bulls for the number 8 seed.

The Knicks (and Detroit) have had the fewest home games of any team in the league so far this season -- six.

The Knicks (and Charlotte) have had the most road games of any team in the league so far this season -- eleven.

The Knicks have played nearly half (8/17) of their games vs. Western Conference teams, and only three vs. teams from their own division.

Maybe the title of the thread should be edited to revise "meltdown" to "working the kinks out"?


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Maybe this belongs in the Crawford update thread, since I'm going to talk about him a bit, but I'm also going to talk about the Knicks in general...

I watched some knicks games last season and I was blown away by how awful Crawford looked. He was absolutely uninterested in playing defense, and he didn't seem all that interested on the offensive end either.

I watched about 4 Knicks games this season, the last being the Celtics game. The difference is night and day. Crawford looks quite interested in playing defense - he's not stellar at it, but he's actually trying and is staying near his man for the most part. On offense, he was taking it to the hoop instead of doing that crossover move solely to get himself some space to launch a long shot (as good as he is at making those).

In the celtics game, the knicks got Curry back for the first time in ... 5 games? They were trying real hard to get the ball inside to him, but looked a lot like the Bulls in having troubles making the simplest of entry passes. That and the celtics were working REAL hard to keep the ball out of Curry's hands.

Crawford made a stunning move... a drive and 2-foot near-handoff kind of pass to Curry that we used to see here, and Curry finished with a dunk. I think the knicks are going to see that a lot this season.

As for Curry... He's really fat. The fattest I've ever seen him. He looks terribly out of shape. Now we've seen that routine here, too, and know that he gets stronger as the season progresses. This may bode well for the knicks.

But as ScottMay said, the knicks sure seem to me to be working out the kinks more than looking like a team with a lack of talent.

QRich, a big name pickup in the offseason is not integrated into the system at all. He's been hurting since the start, and only contributing about 7 points per game and just 23 minutes per.

Knicks beat Seattle in Seattle last night 104-101.

Crawford went 8-13, 4-4 from 3pt, and *11-12 FT* and finished with 33 points. 4 rebounds and 4 assists, too. Two games prior, he scored 22, and the game prior 28. On 8-17 and 8-14 shooting. 

It's only been 3 out of 4 games that he's showing these kind of numbers, but there's a consistency to doing it 3 out of 4 games that is of huge value to any team. If he continues, he's certainly playing at all-star level and earning his contract and beyond. And thriving in the pressure of playing in NY.

For the season? He's shooting 44.3% and 42.9% from 3pt range (close to Gordon's gaudy number).

I took some guff for writing that the Knicks reminded me of the Wizards from last season - three guys who can put up 25 points on any given night... Well, the last three games: Crawford 31, Marbury 35, Crawford 22, Frye 25, Frye 21... And against the bulls 4 games ago: Crawford 28, Frye 21, Marbury 18.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> The Knicks are now 6-11, a mere 1.5 games out of first in their division and only 2.5 games behind the Bulls for the number 8 seed.
> 
> The Knicks (and Detroit) have had the fewest home games of any team in the league so far this season -- six.
> 
> The Knicks (and Charlotte) have had the most road games of any team in the league so far this season -- eleven.
> 
> The Knicks have played nearly half (8/17) of their games vs. Western Conference teams, and only three vs. teams from their own division.
> 
> Maybe the title of the thread should be edited to revise "meltdown" to "working the kinks out"?


All points well taken. Those Bulls fans shopping the top three prospects for the Knicks pick may be doing so prematurely.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> The Knicks are now 6-11, a mere 1.5 games out of first in their division and only 2.5 games behind the Bulls for the number 8 seed.
> 
> The Knicks (and Detroit) have had the fewest home games of any team in the league so far this season -- six.
> 
> The Knicks (and Charlotte) have had the most road games of any team in the league so far this season -- eleven.
> 
> The Knicks have played nearly half (8/17) of their games vs. Western Conference teams, and only three vs. teams from their own division.
> 
> Maybe the title of the thread should be edited to revise "meltdown" to "working the kinks out"?


While you're busy making your "grass is always greener..." posts, remember the Bulls have played over half of their games (10/16) against Western Conf teams, and have also played more road games than home games (9-to-7).

The Knicks are just bad, and I feel confident in saying that. If they're "working the kinks out," then the Bulls are "priming for a title run."

EDIT: Also, the Knicks have had the 2nd easiest schedule up to this point. Bulls have had the 6th toughest.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/stats/rpi?season=2006&sortColumn=sos


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> While you're busy making your "grass is always greener..." posts,


This isn't a "grass is greener" post -- clearly the Bulls are better than the Knicks right now, and probably will be for the rest of the season. It's an indirect response to the posts about the 2006 draft that have us picking Aldridge. 

If you want to compare the teams head to head, though, you'll be struck by how similar they are (Sagarin, FWIW, rates the Bulls as having had the sixth toughest schedule and the Knicks eighteenth).

Point differential: Bulls -2.3, Knicks -2.7

Scoring offense: Bulls 94.4, Knicks 93.3

Scoring defense: Knicks 96.0, Bulls 96.7

Defensive FG%: Bulls .438, Knicks .437

That's spooky.


----------



## truth

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



DaBullz said:


> Maybe this belongs in the Crawford update thread, since I'm going to talk about him a bit, but I'm also going to talk about the Knicks in general...
> I watched some knicks games last season and I was blown away by how awful Crawford looked. He was absolutely uninterested in playing defense, and he didn't seem all that interested on the offensive end either.
> I watched about 4 Knicks games this season, the last being the Celtics game. The difference is night and day. Crawford looks quite interested in playing defense - he's not stellar at it, but he's actually trying and is staying near his man for the most part. On offense, he was taking it to the hoop instead of doing that crossover move solely to get himself some space to launch a long shot (as good as he is at making those).
> In the celtics game, the knicks got Curry back for the first time in ... 5 games? They were trying real hard to get the ball inside to him, but looked a lot like the Bulls in having troubles making the simplest of entry passes. That and the celtics were working REAL hard to keep the ball out of Curry's hands.
> Crawford made a stunning move... a drive and 2-foot near-handoff kind of pass to Curry that we used to see here, and Curry finished with a dunk. I think the knicks are going to see that a lot this season.
> As for Curry... He's really fat. The fattest I've ever seen him. He looks terribly out of shape. Now we've seen that routine here, too, and know that he gets stronger as the season progresses. This may bode well for the knicks.
> But as ScottMay said, the knicks sure seem to me to be working out the kinks more than looking like a team with a lack of talent.
> QRich, a big name pickup in the offseason is not integrated into the system at all. He's been hurting since the start, and only contributing about 7 points per game and just 23 minutes per.
> Knicks beat Seattle in Seattle last night 104-101.
> 
> Crawford went 8-13, 4-4 from 3pt, and *11-12 FT* and finished with 33 points. 4 rebounds and 4 assists, too. Two games prior, he scored 22, and the game prior 28. On 8-17 and 8-14 shooting.
> 
> It's only been 3 out of 4 games that he's showing these kind of numbers, but there's a consistency to doing it 3 out of 4 games that is of huge value to any team. If he continues, he's certainly playing at all-star level and earning his contract and beyond. And thriving in the pressure of playing in NY.
> 
> For the season? He's shooting 44.3% and 42.9% from 3pt range (close to Gordon's gaudy number).
> 
> I took some guff for writing that the Knicks reminded me of the Wizards from last season - three guys who can put up 25 points on any given night... Well, the last three games: Crawford 31, Marbury 35, Crawford 22, Frye 25, Frye 21... And against the bulls 4 games ago: Crawford 28, Frye 21, Marbury 18.


I have one thing to say EDDY CURRY.....

He better learn to Lead,Follow,or get the #$%^ out of the way!!!!!!!!!!!

I now share the pain and suffering of Bulls fans....


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truth said:


> I have one thing to say EDDY CURRY.....
> 
> He better learn to Lead,Follow,or get the #$%^ out of the way!!!!!!!!!!!


unfortunately, he's not good at any of those three things.


----------



## IamAl

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Now that the Knicks are showing marked improvement since their 0-5 start, it could well be possible that we may not have any draft picks in the top 10-12 positions at all... And if Rudy Gay, LaMarcus Aldridge, Adam Morrison, Shelden Williams, Ronnie Brewer, Tiago Splitter, etc are off the board by then, I wonder if Pax would consider James White with either the NY pick or our own pick... Now in his senior year, and quite possibly the best run jump athlete who might be declaring for the draft - White appears to be breaking out after 5 games so far...http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=4976

I am quite tantalised by the prospect of this 6'7 uber athletic slasher partnering Hinrich and Deng in the backcourt... White was born in the same year as Chandler and Curry, but seems to have finally figured out how to use his athletic ability and skills to good effect this season. He seemed to have really fallen under the radar the past couple of years...anyone seen this guy play?


----------



## truth

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> unfortunately, he's not good at any of those three things.


How many times is he capable of lowering the shoulder and flattening the defender???

its getting very painful....

foryunately he makes up for it with his nifty interior passing


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Preach on, brother. I've watched a lot of Knicks games this year and the kid truly impresses. He looks lke he's going to be big time, for a long time.



If I was Isaiah, I'd be busting my hump to get a real PG to team with the kid for the next decade. Thats KM II, right there.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truth said:


> How many times is he capable of lowering the shoulder and flattening the defender???


No more than 6 times per game.


----------



## SausageKingofChicago

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> This isn't a "grass is greener" post -- clearly the Bulls are better than the Knicks right now, and probably will be for the rest of the season. It's an indirect response to the posts about the 2006 draft that have us picking Aldridge.


Knicks will be in the lottery . Book it

And while they are in the lottery we have a chance at someone like Aldridge within the top 3 

Otherwise the Knicks will be there between 8 - 12 IMO ...which we still may be able to consolidate with our 12 to 15 pick to move into a top 3 position to have a crack at LaMarcus baby


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



SausageKingofChicago said:


> Knicks will be in the lottery . Book it


I totally agree and I've said so from the git-go.



> And while they are in the lottery we have a chance at someone like Aldridge within the top 3


Right . . . but if they finish with one of the eight best records in the lottery (which I feel is close to a given), our chance at #1 will be anywhere from 3.5 to 0.5%; #3 4.9 to 0.7. Better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick to be sure, but probably a pretty flimsy basis on which to pencil LaMarcus's name into our lineup for 2006.



> Otherwise the Knicks will be there between 8 - 12 IMO ...which we still may be able to consolidate with our 12 to 15 pick to move into a top 3 position to have a crack at LaMarcus baby


You really think someone's going to take, say, a 16 and an 8 and give up a 1, 2, or 3 for it? And when they could be drafting a young proven big with that pick to boot? That's a pretty big leap of faith -- it's tough to see a team like the Raptors or Hawks or Portland not wanting to keep LaMarcus.


----------



## SausageKingofChicago

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> I totally agree and I've said so from the git-go.
> 
> 
> 
> Right . . . but if they finish with one of the eight best records in the lottery (which I feel is close to a given), our chance at #1 will be anywhere from 3.5 to 0.5%; #3 4.9 to 0.7. Better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick to be sure, but probably a pretty flimsy basis on which to pencil LaMarcus's name into our lineup for 2006.
> 
> 
> 
> You really think someone's going to take, say, a 16 and an 8 and give up a 1, 2, or 3 for it? And when they could be drafting a young proven big with that pick to boot? That's a pretty big leap of faith -- it's tough to see a team like the Raptors or Hawks or Portland not wanting to keep LaMarcus.


Depends where the picks lay and who is available 

Take the Raptors ... I can't see them taking LaMarcus and may well be interested in going down to pick up pick up say Rajon Rondo and Ronnie Brewer ..and then picking up a genuine Center down the line with their mid 1st round pick ( from Jersey ) like Paul Davis out of Michigan State ( who is flying way under the radar in a draft starved of genuine Centers - he could end up lottery )

The Raps could take LaMarcus as an Insurance pick against Chris Bosh leaving...but that's a loser's mentality when that is 2 years away and they will have the cap space to buy help around an impressive young core that comprises ... Bosh, Charlie, Graham, and Calderon. Whilst Araujo is a stiff ..he is a stiff with genuine Center size and is worth perservering with to develop

I think if they could add guys like Rondo and Brewer in the mid to late lottery range this would be a better move for them - then the add Davis if they can - and year after next when their crap contracts expire ( principally Rose ) they have :

Center : Davis / Araujo
Forwards : Bosh , Charlie , Graham
Guards : Petersen ( assuming they can hang on to him ) Brewer, Bobby Jones ( top of the 2nd round )
Point: Calderon / Rondo

They will also have a high lottery pick in 2007 - the draft of the big man just by virtue of the fact that they will still suck next year - and a where they will add further depth at Center given who is shaping up in availability in that draft 

At that point , with that core , with over $20M in cap space available - they have that asset with that array of young talent to consolidate if they wish and improve in a mighty big hurry

If they throw the money at Bish Bosh..which I expect they would then Bish ain 't going anywhere

Hawks? Yes . I don't think they trade down . If they are at #2 to #4 they take Aldridge hands down 

Portland ? Unless they draft him as an asset . I mean they already have a nice disbursement of young talent ..and young veteran talent . I expect them to retain Pryzibilla who is an ideal complement to Zach Randolph. Ratliff is around for the next couple of years.. I think for Portland to move on they need more veteran depth . 

Telfair and Jack are great young assets at the point ... Miles and Monya are nice assets at forward as are Khyrappa and Webster ..all have good size and are pure position players 

If anything ..they need to age at guard and around the wings with role playing vet support and with young vets upfront like Joel and Zach and the old stager in Theo..then yeah I can probably see where Aldridge makes some sense for the Blazers

At the end of the day...it depends on the team and where the Knicks and Bulls picks lay ( Obviously )


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Ouch for the Knicks!

They had a solid lead much of the game, then got out scored 45-29 in the 2nd half. That's right, 29 points in the entire 2nd half. 

Meltdown indeed. But Eddy Curry's big game did not go unnoticed. Just realize that Eddy teases like this from time to time. Maybe it was the fresh legs?


----------



## Babble-On

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I hope Eddy stops rebounding like that, and follows this game up with some and 2 and 3 rebound perfomances like he did here. If he for some reason has decided that he wants to put in effort in that phase of the game after being in the league for 4 prior years, I'll be pissed.


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Eddy was good tonight. But, as has pretty much always been the case, he tends to change into someone else in clutch situations.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

very nice game for Eddy!


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ShamBulls said:


> Eddy was good tonight. But, as has pretty much always been the case, he tends to change into someone else in clutch situations.


Really? Outside of a few spectacular (and thus memorable) failures like the unintentional intentional foul vs. Dallas, I think Eddy actually did really well in close games for us. Skiles said as much earlier this season. 

He came up short at the free throw line last night, but you can pin the fourth-quarter meltdown on the guards. The Clippers decided to double- and even triple-team Eddy without the ball, and Robinson, Crawford, Marbury, and AD missed a boatload of shots.

The thing that impresses me about the Knicks is the defense. Brown has gotten that pretty much turned around.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> Really? Outside of a few spectacular (and thus memorable) failures like the unintentional intentional foul vs. Dallas, I think Eddy actually did really well in close games for us. Skiles said as much earlier this season.
> 
> He came up short at the free throw line last night, but you can pin the fourth-quarter meltdown on the guards. The Clippers decided to double- and even triple-team Eddy without the ball, and Robinson, Crawford, Marbury, and AD missed a boatload of shots.
> 
> The thing that impresses me about the Knicks is the defense. Brown has gotten that pretty much turned around.


I knew LB would get them to play better D. In fact they allow less points than we do and we are suppose to be a defensive team. If NY's offense every catches up with their defense they will give us a serious challenge for the playoffs. We are only 3 games ahead of them.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> Meltdown indeed. But Eddy Curry's big game did not go unnoticed. Just realize that Eddy teases like this from time to time. Maybe it was the fresh legs?


Before the calf injury, Eddy was putting up per minute numbers like you saw last night.


He just stayed out of foul trouble yesterday.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The Knicks are 4-9 when Eddy plays (.309)

The Knicks are 2-3 when Eddy sits (.400)

The Knicks score ~11 more points per game when Eddy isn't playing. (They scored 100.2 per game in the 5 games Eddy didn't play, and less than 90/game when he does play)

In the Knicks' 6 wins, Eddy has played 0, 0, 16, 21, 28, and 17 minutes.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> In the Knicks' 6 wins, Eddy has played 0, 0, 16, 21, 28, and 17 minutes.


What about Jamal?


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truebluefan said:


> I knew LB would get them to play better D. In fact they allow less points than we do and we are suppose to be a defensive team. If NY's offense every catches up with their defense they will give us a serious challenge for the playoffs. We are only 3 games ahead of them.


Another way to look at it is the Knicks are only 4 games ahead of having the worst record in the league (and there are only 4 NBA teams with poorer records).


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Another way to look at it is the Knicks are only 4 games ahead of having the worst record in the league (and there are only 4 NBA teams with poorer records).


Wow, the Bulls are pretty close to the bottom of the league. You are right.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Wow, the Bulls are pretty close to the bottom of the league. You are right.


Not really. They're much closer to the top than they are to the bottom (ahead of 17 teams and behind 12), but whatever makes you happy.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> What about Jamal?


In 6 Games Won: 31.8 min, .459 FG, .500 3's, .878 FT (6.8 FTA), 3.8 reb, 2.5 ast, 20.8 pts 
In 12 Games Lost: 30.3 min, .407 FG, .345 3's, .778 FT (3.0 FTA), 1.9 reb, 3.2 ast, 11.2 pts 

Looking at those numbers, one can only conclude that the Knicks might be a dangerous team if Jamal could play well more than 1/3 of the time.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Not really. They're much closer to the top than they are to the bottom (ahead of 17 teams and behind 12), but whatever makes you happy.


Seriously, it must really pain you, kukoc4ever, to try to look at the Bulls positively.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> In 6 Games Won: 31.8 min, .459 FG, .500 3's, .878 FT (6.8 FTA), 3.8 reb, 2.5 ast, 20.8 pts
> In 12 Games Lost: 30.3 min, .407 FG, .345 3's, .778 FT (3.0 FTA), 1.9 reb, 3.2 ast, 11.2 pts
> 
> Looking at those numbers, one can only conclude that the Knicks might be a dangerous team if Jamal could play well more than 1/3 of the time.


Have Curry's and Jamal's defense improved?

What about Curry's rebounding?

I know we've moved on to fresh topics to bash them about... I was just hoping to resolve the old ones officially.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Zeb said:


> Seriously, it must really pain you, kukoc4ever, to try to look at the Bulls positively.


Hey *Zeb*.

I'm just entertained by the spin.

I think my expectations about the Bulls are just too high. I should lower them to the ".500 is AOK" attitude.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Hey *Zeb*.
> 
> I'm just entertained by the spin.


 :biggrin:


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> In 6 Games Won: 31.8 min, .459 FG, .500 3's, .878 FT (6.8 FTA), 3.8 reb, 2.5 ast, 20.8 pts
> In 12 Games Lost: 30.3 min, .407 FG, .345 3's, .778 FT (3.0 FTA), 1.9 reb, 3.2 ast, 11.2 pts
> 
> Looking at those numbers, one can only conclude that the Knicks might be a dangerous team if Jamal could play well more than 1/3 of the time.


As for the consistency, that's what holds back good players from becoming great players all the time. That pretty much is true for every player on our team.

The other guys on the team need to step up and perform better on nights when Crawford is not playing at an all-league level.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Imagine that, some people actually have the gall to "bash" players who don't play for the Bulls.

On a *Bulls* message board, no less.

Shocking!!

What's next, people actually supporting Paxson (the *Bulls* General Manager) for trading away two players whose absence hasn't been missed by the Bulls, and whose presence hasn't helped the Knicks win more games. In fact, the Knicks won less games after adding Jamal, and now they are winning even less games after adding Eddy.

Unbelievable!!


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Imagine that, some people actually have the gall to "bash" players who don't play for the Bulls.
> 
> On a *Bulls* message board, no less.
> 
> Shocking!!
> 
> What's next, people actually supporting Paxson (the *Bulls* General Manager) for trading away two players whose absence hasn't been missed by the Bulls, and whose presence hasn't helped the Knicks win more games. In fact, the Knicks won less games after adding Jamal, and now they are winning even less games after adding Eddy.
> 
> Unbelievable!!


Yah, yah, I know the latest spin.

But what about the defense and rebounding? The old spin?


----------



## darlets

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> I totally agree and I've said so from the git-go.
> 
> 
> 
> Right . . . but if they finish with one of the eight best records in the lottery (which I feel is close to a given), our chance at #1 will be anywhere from 3.5 to 0.5%; #3 4.9 to 0.7. Better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick to be sure, but probably a pretty flimsy basis on which to pencil LaMarcus's name into our lineup for 2006.


True, however, alot of championship teams have been built on the lottery balls bouncing the right way. A bit of luck could catapult us. Fingers crossed




ScottMay said:


> You really think someone's going to take, say, a 16 and an 8 and give up a 1, 2, or 3 for it? And when they could be drafting a young proven big with that pick to boot? That's a pretty big leap of faith -- it's tough to see a team like the Raptors or Hawks or Portland not wanting to keep LaMarcus.


I was just curious, what do people think say the 8 and 16 pick could be traded up for? Depends alot of on the team we trade with, but surely it would get us the 5-6 pick????

We are a very deep team and could use with some talent consolidation, so why not do it in the draft and turn two lower picks into a higher one.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



darlets said:


> I was just curious, what do people think say the 8 and 16 pick could be traded up for? Depends alot of on the team we trade with, but surely it would get us the 5-6 pick????
> 
> We are a very deep team and could use with some talent consolidation, so why not do it in the draft and turn two lower picks into a higher one.


Trading the 8th and 16th picks for the #1, 2, or 3 pick could happen for sure. Alot depends on how deep a certain draft is. If the talent drop-off isn't significantly steep from high lottery to mid-first round, then it's even more possible. And what if the Bulls offered to absorb an "ugly contract" from a lottery team. Then they're even more enticed to make the swap. I believe the Bobcats absorbed an unwanted contract from the Clippers, which is how they got Emeka Okafor at #2. That's another advantage of our cap room this summer, we can absorb just about any contract without balancing out the salaries.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> Trading the 8th and 16th picks for the #1, 2, or 3 pick could happen for sure. Alot depends on how deep a certain draft is. If the talent drop-off isn't significantly steep from high lottery to mid-first round, then it's even more possible. And what if the Bulls offered to absorb an "ugly contract" from a lottery team. Then they're even more enticed to make the swap. I believe the Bobcats absorbed an unwanted contract from the Clippers, which is how they got Emeka Okafor at #2. That's another advantage of our cap room this summer, we can absorb just about any contract without balancing out the salaries.


Define "could happen for sure." 

The deal you use as an example isn't at all like trading an 8 and 16 for a 1, 2, or 3. Everyone in the world knew that Orlando would take Howard, leaving Okafor as a consensus #2. The Clippers had absolutely no use whatsoever for him, but the Bobcats wanted a power player. The biggest difference, though, is that the Clippers were only trading down two spots and knew they'd nab Livingston, Gordon, or Harris (or Deng, or Igoudala, or whatever else their preference may have been).

I'm not ruling anything out, but an 16/8 for a 1-3 seems incredibly far-fetched to me. Off the top of my head, I can't think of an even remotely similar deal being made in modern NBA history, whether the draft was weak, strong, thin, deep, whatever.


----------



## Babble-On

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Hey *Zeb*.
> 
> I'm just entertained by the spin.
> 
> I think my expectations about the Bulls are just too high. I should lower them to the ".500 is AOK" attitude.


You talk about lowering expectations, but how have expectations been lowered? The Bulls haven't been legitimately competing for a playoff spot this early in a season since 97-98. The expectations the Bulls have set for right now are to be a playoff team this year and then after using cap space and draft picks in the offseason. taking a the step into seriously competing in the playoffs. What expectations were in place previously(during the worst 6 year run in league history) that you've been let down from?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Babble-On said:


> You talk about lowering expectations, but how have expectations been lowered? The Bulls haven't been legitimately competing for a playoff spot this early in a season since 97-98. The expectations the Bulls have set for right now are to be a playoff team this year and then after using cap space and draft picks in the offseason. taking a the step into seriously competing in the playoffs. What expectations were in place previously(during the worst 6 year run in league history) that you've been let down from?


We certainly are average now. But we lack difference making talent, save for Deng and the apparently sickly but highly paid Chandler.

Before we had tall, multi-talented guards and a duo of young seven footers that have already led a team into the playoffs.

Now we have undersized yet "hard-working" players, we lack size other than the two players I mentioned above, and we're back to hoping for draft picks and Cap Space to save us. Except this time the odds of us getting a top 3 pick are less likely and there do not appear to be many difference makers to use Cap Space on.

.500 is kinda boring, especially when hope was dumped with little to show for it.

Maybe the Vanilla Gorilla will save us.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> Define "could happen for sure."
> 
> The deal you use as an example isn't at all like trading an 8 and 16 for a 1, 2, or 3. Everyone in the world knew that Orlando would take Howard, leaving Okafor as a consensus #2. The Clippers had absolutely no use whatsoever for him, but the Bobcats wanted a power player. The biggest difference, though, is that the Clippers were only trading down two spots and knew they'd nab Livingston, Gordon, or Harris (or Deng, or Igoudala, or whatever else their preference may have been).
> 
> I'm not ruling anything out, but an 16/8 for a 1-3 seems incredibly far-fetched to me. Off the top of my head, I can't think of an even remotely similar deal being made in modern NBA history, whether the draft was weak, strong, thin, deep, whatever.


For the 1st or 2nd pick, yeah that's far-fetched. I guess I was more thinking of the 3rd, 4th, or 5th pick...with which we might snag Aldridge or at worst Shelden Williams. Trading #8 & #16 for #4 + ugly contract isn't a bad deal, IMO.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> Really? Outside of a few spectacular (and thus memorable) failures like the unintentional intentional foul vs. Dallas, I think Eddy actually did really well in close games for us. Skiles said as much earlier this season.
> 
> He came up short at the free throw line last night, but you can pin the fourth-quarter meltdown on the guards. The Clippers decided to double- and even triple-team Eddy without the ball, and Robinson, Crawford, Marbury, and AD missed a boatload of shots.
> 
> The thing that impresses me about the Knicks is the defense. Brown has gotten that pretty much turned around.


i look at the game like this .

the clippers are just good now(great for them considering how bad they usually are) and they were supposed to take that game at home(home teams win 75% of the time ) and when push came to shove they took the game, all the credit in the world to them for it.

the knicks are playing good defense with a pretty bad offense and their record does reflect it , but as their offense has gotten netter they have somewhat flattened out to a .500 team , their record just hasn't shown it yet.

they have played something along a ratio of 6 home games and 12 road games , and that is basically their record, they may get better as their offense gets better , but i expect their offense to ebb and flow during the season , they have too many good pieces on offense to be so bad consistently bad all season.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> For the 1st or 2nd pick, yeah that's far-fetched. I guess I was more thinking of the 3rd, 4th, or 5th pick...with which we might snag Aldridge or at worst Shelden Williams. Trading #8 & #16 for #4 + ugly contract isn't a bad deal, IMO.


even in the weak upcoming draft , sheldon williams will not be a top 10 pick . if the bulls want him they will be able to get him with their own pick.


----------



## Babble-On

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> We certainly are average now. But we lack difference making talent, save for Deng and the apparently sickly but highly paid Chandler.
> 
> Before we had tall, multi-talented guards and a duo of young seven footers that have already led a team into the playoffs.
> 
> Now we have undersized yet "hard-working" players, we lack size other than the two players I mentioned above, and we're back to hoping for draft picks and Cap Space to save us. Except this time the odds of us getting a top 3 pick are less likely and there do not appear to be many difference makers to use Cap Space on.
> 
> .500 is kinda boring, especially when hope was dumped with little to show for it.
> 
> Maybe the Vanilla Gorilla will save us.


But you didn't really answer the question. How is .500 with hopes for further moves a lowering of expectations when before .500, we were winning 20 some games a year? 

What were the expectations before? How much better would the Bulls be if they had Crawford and Curry? It seems to me that the Bulls would be closer to that Grizzlies situation you keep claiming the Bulls are in. Capped out, a bunch of young decent players, but none who are stars, certainly no franchise type, championship type guys. 

I'd say that a team of

Curry, Davis
Chandler
Deng, Nocioni
Crawford, Gordon
Hinrich, Duhon

looks at about the same level as

Wright
Gasol, Swift
Battier, Miller
Wells, Posey
Williams, Watson

Which is what the Grizzlies ran with the previous few years. Gasol is young and 7 feet tall, only better than either of those we had. I'd take both those guys over Wright though. I'd put Deng over Battier and Miller, Nocioni, Idunno. Wells, Posey, probably a better combo than Crawford/Gordon when you take into account defense and Crawford's problems over the years with sharing playing time. I'd take Hinrich Duhon over Williams Watson. So maybe a little better than those Grizz teams. But what have they been able to consolidate those decent but slow to take to the next level young players into? Eddie Jones, Damon Stoudemire, Bobby Jackson.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Babble-On said:


> I'd say that a team of
> 
> Curry, Davis
> Chandler
> Deng, Nocioni
> Crawford, Gordon
> Hinrich, Duhon
> 
> looks at about the same level as
> 
> Wright
> Gasol, Swift
> Battier, Miller
> Wells, Posey
> Williams, Watson
> 
> Which is what the Grizzlies ran with the previous few years. Gasol is young and 7 feet tall, only better than either of those we had. I'd take both those guys over Wright though. I'd put Deng over Battier and Miller, Nocioni, Idunno. Wells, Posey, probably a better combo than Crawford/Gordon when you take into account defense and Crawford's problems over the years with sharing playing time. I'd take Hinrich Duhon over Williams Watson. So maybe a little better than those Grizz teams. But what have they been able to consolidate those decent but slow to take to the next level young players into? Eddie Jones, Damon Stoudemire, Bobby Jackson.


Good points.

I would project Curry >> Wright and Deng >> Battier and that's where we would have had the main competitive advantage over most teams.

I had a hard time thinking any NBA teams could match our Deng, Chandler, Curry at the 3,4,5 going forward. 

Crawford having trouble sharing playing time? Seems like he's doing just fine coming off the bench in NYC. I still don't know why its admirable to want to be benched. As long as you keep playing hard, I don't see why a player should like being benched. Pride is OK, IMO.

EDIT:

Also, when you have 4 talented guards on the roster like Hinrich, Gordon, Crawford and Duhon, the idea of making a trade for Paul Pierce and still being able to field a strong, competitive team after a consolidation trade seems a lot easier.

I read in many threads, mostly bashing the Knicks, about how horrible it is to be Capped Out. What are we going to really do with all this Cap Space we've been plotting to build over the last 3 years? Przbilla? Harrington? These guys seem good but not great. Not being in the market to acquire them via FA does not seem like much of a loss. Trades seem like better options.


----------



## Babble-On

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Crawford having trouble sharing playing time? Seems like he's doing just fine coming off the bench in NYC. I still don't know why its admariable to want to be benched. As long as you keep playing hard, I don't see why a player should like being benched. Pride is OK, IMO.


I didn't say anything about wanting to be benched, but it is admirable to accept the role your coach decides best suits the team, and make the best of the minutes you are given. And Jamal has had problems with that. From asking for a trade when Jay Williams was starting, to the period where he was benched for Kirk and his game went south, to the benchings Skiles gave him over not playing D or for stupid shots, followed by the "I don't understand" type statements. He seems to be doing ok coming off the bench right now though. But is the fact that the coach is Hall of Famer "best coach ever" Larry Brown the thing that has helped jamal's attitude? I don't know. maybe he's matured past that, and maybe he'll revert back to his old ways for periods like he has done at other times when he's made short term strides.


----------



## Babble-On

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Also, when you have 4 talented guards on the roster like Hinrich, Gordon, Crawford and Duhon, the idea of making a trade for Paul Pierce and still being able to field a strong, competitive team after a consolidation trade seems a lot easier.
> 
> I read in many threads, mostly bashing the Knicks, about how horrible it is to be Capped Out. What are we going to really do with all this Cap Space we've been plotting to build over the last 3 years? Przbilla? Harrington? These guys seem good but not great. Not being in the market to acquire them via FA does not seem like much of a loss. Trades seem like better options.


But looking at the Grizzlies, what would you be able to get for a bunch of mediocre players who are locked into big long term deals. People were talking about consolidating all their talent and making trades, but all they've managed to get out of it via trades is Eddie Jones. In addition to being able to sign free agents cap space also gives you the flexibility to take back more salary than you're giving up in trade.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Babble-On said:


> But looking at the Grizzlies, what would you be able to get for a bunch of mediocre players who are locked into big long term deals. People were talking about consolidating all their talent and making trades, but all they've managed to get out of it via trades is Eddie Jones. In addition to being able to sign free agents cap space also gives you the flexibility to take back more salary than you're giving up in trade.


We'll see what Paul Pierce gets traded for, if he's traded at all.

We'll also see what Cap Space gets turned into.

We'll also see how the Bulls end up doing this year and going forward.

The Eddie Jones trade was a bit of a head scratcher when it was made. There are no guarantees with anything. 

I don't consider players like Hinrich and Crawford to be mediocre.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> For the 1st or 2nd pick, yeah that's far-fetched. I guess I was more thinking of the 3rd, 4th, or 5th pick...with which we might snag Aldridge or at worst Shelden Williams. Trading #8 & #16 for #4 + ugly contract isn't a bad deal, IMO.


I still don't think it's a plausible scenario until you get down to the 6-7 area. On the bad (young) teams likely to finish in the top 4 spots, there aren't a whole heck of a lot of bad contracts -- at least not ones bad enough to the extent it'll help the GM explain to his fans why he traded a 3-4 for an 8 and a 16. Again, I'm not the Elias Sports Bureau or anything, but off the top of my head, I can't remember a deal like that happening, at least not since the advent of the lottery.

I think it's far more likely that we could combine the picks to move up ONE spot, maybe two, from the highest of the two picks. There is far more historical precedent for that kind of deal, because the team that's trading down knows for sure it'll get one of the two players it wants. 

Even that would require a lot of things to break our way -- does the team have a vet they'd like to unload? Do they want the two guaranteed contracts? Are they sure they can get the player they want with our pick? Is there a player they're in love with at 16? And so on.


----------



## Kneepad

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I read in many threads, mostly bashing the Knicks, about how horrible it is to be Capped Out. What are we going to really do with all this Cap Space we've been plotting to build over the last 3 years? Przbilla? Harrington? These guys seem good but not great. Not being in the market to acquire them via FA does not seem like much of a loss. Trades seem like better options.


Having cap space can greatly help facilitate trades-- especially for a team that has a lot of talent on rookie contracts (as the Bulls do).


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

In the 2001 draft, Houston traded 13, 18 and 23 and moved up to 7.

They got screwed, Eddie Griffin went 7 and Dick Jeff was 13 and Collins was 18.

8 and 16 wouldn't move you into the top-3, but 8 and 16 and Gordon or Hinrich or possibly Duhon would do it IMHO. Depending on the needs of the teams there, let's say Toronto is 1 or 2 or 3, they have a great big man in Bosh and maybe something in Villanueva, but they could certainly use a PG and obviously liked Duhon.

They need a lot of players, if they could add Duhon and 8 and 16 I could certainly see them passing on another big man.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Also, someone may have mentioned this but Charlotte only had to eat a $3 million expiring contract to move up from #4 to #2.

I haven't looked it up, but I'd bet that even all the extreme bottom-feeders have at least one MLE deal they'd like to move. Add in one of the guards that we seeming don't have room for, and I really think we can get into the top-3.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Also, someone may have mentioned this but Charlotte only had to eat a $3 million expiring contract to move up from #4 to #2.
> 
> I haven't looked it up, but I'd bet that even all the extreme bottom-feeders have at least one MLE deal they'd like to move. Add in one of the guards that we seeming don't have room for, and I really think we can get into the top-3.


Yup, all Charlotte had to do was take on Melvin Ely and Eddie House's contracts to get the number two pick.

Oh, there were two other relatively major considerations -- the Clippers were trying to clear every last penny of cap space to offer Kobe Bryant, and as stated earlier, they had absolutely no use for the consensus #2 pick. But far more importantly, Charlotte was able to offer them a pick where they knew they'd snag at least one of two of the draft's best players who they liked better and needed more than Okafor: Livingston and Gordon (or Deng, or Igoudala, or whatever their second choice was).

There's nothing in the rulebook preventing a team with a 1-5 pick from trading it and a "bad" MLE contract for a low lottery pick and a pick out of the lottery. It's just that nothing even remotely like it has ever happened in modern NBA history. It would take us shipping out Hinrich, Gordon, or Deng to make the notion of that sort of deal plausible.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

There are so many different scenarios out there- whether it be trading up, trading a player with the picks to move up, eating a bad contract with cap space to move up, trading the picks and a player for an "all-star talent"- but usually each one of them is dismissed by members of the "Fire Paxson" club.

So from now on, I am just going to enjoy watching the Knicks lose and see how high our pick is going to be. It's pointless to discuss any possibility, because they are all shot down as impossible.

It's like no team in NBA history has ever made a bad trade, and it's like no player in NBA history has ever improved enough from December to April and make himself a desirable free agent, and it's like the Knicks are a good team, and it's like...

It's like, pointless.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> It's like no team in NBA history has ever made a bad trade


No, but people don't intend to make bad trades. Thus, it's not very wise to make a plan that hinges on somebody doing something foolish. People do foolish things (like trade Elton Brand for Tyson Chandler or Ron Artest and Brad Miller for Jalen Rose) but not on purpose.

Yesterday this guys' telling me his company is going to trial on a suit because they've got "no exposure" and can take the other guy for millions. Well, ok, by why doesn't the other guy just settle then? Turns out they also think they've got "no exposure" and can take his company for millions.

One of those guys is likely to be very wrong. Planning your success on "winning" in that sort of situation, however, is very risky business.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Mikedc said:


> No, but people don't intend to make bad trades. Thus, it's not very wise to make a plan that hinges on somebody doing something foolish. People do foolish things (like trade Elton Brand for Tyson Chandler or Ron Artest and Brad Miller for Jalen Rose) but not on purpose.
> 
> Yesterday this guys' telling me his company is going to trial on a suit because they've got "no exposure" and can take the other guy for millions. Well, ok, by why doesn't the other guy just settle then? Turns out they also think they've got "no exposure" and can take his company for millions.
> 
> One of those guys is likely to be very wrong. Planning your success on "winning" in that sort of situation, however, is very risky business.


Of course nobody plans to make a bad trade, but they happen all the time.

But there is no way that Paxson's plan hinges on somebody doing something foolish.

My point was that there are several different ways the summer could pan out, and each and every one of them are quickly shot down by members of the "Fire Paxson" club- in spite of Paxson's pretty damned good track record so far.

I've lost track of how many times I have read "there are no free agents next summer", despite the fact that just about every year one or two guys come "out of nowhere" and become desirable free agents over the course of the season. At this time last season, very few people thought that Hughes would become a max player or that Bobby Simmons would become an over-the-MLE player. I honestly don't know who the frontrunner is right now to win that title for this season, but whoever those players are the Bulls will have first crack at them next summer.

I have also lost track of how many times I have read that "next summer's draft is horrible", despite the fact that each and every year the actual draft looks much, much different than the mock drafts from early December. I read a thread somewhere in the last week (maybe on another board) that listed a mock from last November or December, and Bogut wasn't even a first-rounder, and neither was Frye (off the top of my head). And guys who were lottery picks last December fell out of the first round.

I have no clue what will happen next summer, but I do know that Pax's record so far gives me enough confidence to fully believe that he'll do the right thing to improve the Bulls. I'm just saying that for me, personally, it's getting really old reading the same gloom and doom predictions (no FA, weak draft, etc etc etc) from the "Fire Paxson" club.

But that's just me, all the "Pax-bashers" are more than entitled to their "woe is us" opinions.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> There are so many different scenarios out there- whether it be trading up, trading a player with the picks to move up, eating a bad contract with cap space to move up, trading the picks and a player for an "all-star talent"- but usually each one of them is dismissed by members of the "Fire Paxson" club.
> 
> So from now on, I am just going to enjoy watching the Knicks lose and see how high our pick is going to be. It's pointless to discuss any possibility, because they are all shot down as impossible.
> 
> It's like no team in NBA history has ever made a bad trade, and it's like no player in NBA history has ever improved enough from December to April and make himself a desirable free agent, and it's like the Knicks are a good team, and it's like...
> 
> It's like, pointless.


I agree with everything you said. It seems as if many people here go out of their way to give the benefit of the doubt to every NBA GM outside of John Paxson. I don't understand it. 

As far as the draft, it's still much too far away to be able to speak on it in any absolute terms. We obviously don't even know the draft order much less which players will be coming out. Let's also remember that Bogut, Marvin Williams, and Deron Williams weren't even considered lottery picks at this time last year.



> I still don't think it's a plausible scenario until you get down to the 6-7 area. On the bad (young) teams likely to finish in the top 4 spots, there aren't a whole heck of a lot of bad contracts -- at least not ones bad enough to the extent it'll help the GM explain to his fans why he traded a 3-4 for an 8 and a 16. Again, I'm not the Elias Sports Bureau or anything, but off the top of my head, I can't remember a deal like that happening, at least not since the advent of the lottery.


Well, one obvious question is how many teams in the history of the NBA draft lottery have had a mid lottery pick + mid 1st round pick with the intent of trading up? That it hasn't happened may not be the result of some unwritten NBA rule with regards to trading down but rather the lack of such opportunities presenting themselves.

And what's with everyone insisting that we're getting the #8 pick? The Knicks are better than Toronto, Atlanta, Charlotte, and probably Portland, but that's about it. Right now, we're on track for the #5. I guess their record could be a bit inflated by playing in the Atlantic...


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> There are so many different scenarios out there- whether it be trading up, trading a player with the picks to move up, eating a bad contract with cap space to move up, trading the picks and a player for an "all-star talent"- but usually each one of them is dismissed by members of the "Fire Paxson" club.
> 
> So from now on, I am just going to enjoy watching the Knicks lose and see how high our pick is going to be. It's pointless to discuss any possibility, because they are all shot down as impossible.
> 
> It's like no team in NBA history has ever made a bad trade, and it's like no player in NBA history has ever improved enough from December to April and make himself a desirable free agent, and it's like the Knicks are a good team, and it's like...
> 
> It's like, pointless.


Hey, if you want to spend the next 7 months penciling LaMarcus Aldridge's name into the starting lineup or wringing your hands over how Rudy Gay and Deng will coexist, that's your lookout. 

The likelihood of us landing a top 3 guy with the Knicks pick (who currently project to 31 wins, based on their .500 record at home and .250 record on the road) is extremely small. The likelihood of trading a 8 and 16 (pure guesswork) for a 1-5 pick is even smaller. (When something's never happened before, I consider the odds that it will happen to be really small.)

Dream and scheme and plan all you want. Just don't expect pie-in-the-sky thinking to go unchallenged. Our best shot of moving up in the draft is hoping that the 5 or 3 or 1 percent chance the Knicks pick hits gold (which is not much of a shot), or packaging the picks and a good young player.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Of course nobody plans to make a bad trade, but they happen all the time.
> 
> But there is no way that Paxson's plan hinges on somebody doing something foolish.
> 
> My point was that there are several different ways the summer could pan out, and each and every one of them are quickly shot down by members of the "Fire Paxson" club- in spite of Paxson's pretty damned good track record so far.
> 
> I've lost track of how many times I have read "there are no free agents next summer", despite the fact that just about every year one or two guys come "out of nowhere" and become desirable free agents over the course of the season. At this time last season, very few people thought that Hughes would become a max player or that Bobby Simmons would become an over-the-MLE player. I honestly don't know who the frontrunner is right now to win that title for this season, but whoever those players are the Bulls will have first crack at them next summer.
> 
> I have also lost track of how many times I have read that "next summer's draft is horrible", despite the fact that each and every year the actual draft looks much, much different than the mock drafts from early December. I read a thread somewhere in the last week (maybe on another board) that listed a mock from last November or December, and Bogut wasn't even a first-rounder, and neither was Frye (off the top of my head). And guys who were lottery picks last December fell out of the first round.
> 
> I have no clue what will happen next summer, but I do know that Pax's record so far gives me enough confidence to fully believe that he'll do the right thing to improve the Bulls. I'm just saying that for me, personally, it's getting really old reading the same gloom and doom predictions (no FA, weak draft, etc etc etc) from the "Fire Paxson" club.
> 
> But that's just me, all the "Pax-bashers" are more than entitled to their "woe is us" opinions.


:boohoo:

We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Right now, we're on track for the #5. I guess their record could be a bit inflated by playing in the Atlantic...


Projecting the Knicks current winning percentage over 82 games probably isn't the best way to get an accurate sense of where they'll finish up. They've played two-thirds of their games on the road, remember, where they're 3-9. At home they're 3-3, and if you project using those percentages, it comes out to 31 wins. I think given their schedule and getting used to Brown/setting a rotation, they'll manage a couple more than that (even last year's Knicks finished 22-19 at home), and teams in that 33-35 win range usually pick 6-10.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> Projecting the Knicks current winning percentage over 82 games probably isn't the best way to get an accurate sense of where they'll finish up. They've played two-thirds of their games on the road, remember, where they're 3-9. At home they're 3-3, and if you project using those percentages, it comes out to 31 wins. I think given their schedule and getting used to Brown/setting a rotation, they'll manage a couple more than that (even last year's Knicks finished 22-19 at home), and teams in that 33-35 win range usually pick 6-10.


I wasn't so much projecting their current record, just thinking they're better than only a few teams. For them to be on track for the #8 pick, they would probably have to be better than 3 teams from this group: Houston, Sacramento, Hornets, Utah, Seattle, Orlando, Washington, Philadelphia, Boston, and New Jersey. I don't see it.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> Hey, if you want to spend the next 7 months penciling LaMarcus Aldridge's name into the starting lineup or wringing your hands over how Rudy Gay and Deng will coexist, that's your lookout.


LOL, that's not even close to my outlook, I have never mentioned one player in the draft that I am looking at. Why? BECAUSE IT'S DECEMBER, and as I keep saying we have no idea who will be at the top of the draft in December. We can guess one our two guys, but lots of guys will move up and lots of guys will move down. 

But people are more than welcome to continue their "the draft sucks" mantra, despite the fact that it is waaaaaay too early to know that.

I am not holding my breath over any scenario. I am just glad that Paxson has set us up to be a player in damn near each and every possible scenario with all our picks and cap space and young talent (since a talent-consolidating trade is deemed necessary by almost everyone on this board.) 



> The likelihood of us landing a top 3 guy with the Knicks pick (who currently project to 31 wins, based on their .500 record at home and .250 record on the road) is extremely small. The likelihood of trading a 8 and 16 (pure guesswork) for a 1-5 pick is even smaller. (When something's never happened before, I consider the odds that it will happen to be really small.)
> 
> Dream and scheme and plan all you want. Just don't expect pie-in-the-sky thinking to go unchallenged. Our best shot of moving up in the draft is hoping that the 5 or 3 or 1 percent chance the Knicks pick hits gold (which is not much of a shot), or packaging the picks and a good young player.


LOL again, I am not "dreaming" or "scheming". I am objectively looking at all the possibilites instead of quickly dismissing each and every one of them as impossible. Because I have complete confidence that Paxson will figure out the best course of action for the Bulls (which obviously goes directly against the beliefs of the "Fire Paxson" club, which isn't surprising).

Speaking of the "impossible", how many times in NBA history has a team traded away it's leading scorer and then increased their win total from 23 to 47 the next season while adding nothing but rookies? I can't think of once in league history, so I guess that can't happen, either...


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> I wasn't so much projecting their current record, just thinking they're better than only a few teams. For them to be on track for the #8 pick, they would probably have to be better than 3 teams from this group: Houston, Sacramento, Hornets, Utah, Seattle, Orlando, Washington, Philadelphia, Boston, and New Jersey. I don't see it.



Last year at this time, the Knicks were (according to many) a lock for the playoffs, and "there is no way the Bulls wind up with a better record than the Knicks".

But hey, the great thing about this board is that you can say whatever the hell you want, be as 100% incorrect as humanly possible, and nobody is allowed to ever mention it again. The accuracy of a poster's evaluation is to be quickly forgotten, as I have been reminded on several occasions.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> Hey, if you want to spend the next 7 months penciling LaMarcus Aldridge's name into the starting lineup or wringing your hands over how Rudy Gay and Deng will coexist, that's your lookout.
> 
> The likelihood of us landing a top 3 guy with the Knicks pick (who currently project to 31 wins, based on their .500 record at home and .250 record on the road) is extremely small. The likelihood of trading a 8 and 16 (pure guesswork) for a 1-5 pick is even smaller. (When something's never happened before, I consider the odds that it will happen to be really small.)
> 
> Dream and scheme and plan all you want. Just don't expect pie-in-the-sky thinking to go unchallenged. Our best shot of moving up in the draft is hoping that the 5 or 3 or 1 percent chance the Knicks pick hits gold (which is not much of a shot), or packaging the picks and a good young player.


With Paxsons record in the draft, I don't really care where the pick lands as long as it's in the top half. The man knows what he's doing. About the only fault I have for him is that he didn't have the manhood to move up and take Wade, choosing the passive road instead. Don't know if anyone has noticed...but Gordon /= Wade. 

As for the trades, this organization has just been awful in this 21st(?) century. I'd just as soon stay away from that...because we also seem forced to make them and they don't turn out right that way.

And guess what the next trade is? Yup...another one where we're being forced to move Tim Thomas.


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Speaking of the "impossible", how many times in NBA history has a team traded away it's leading scorer and then increased their win total from 23 to 47 the next season while adding nothing but rookies? I can't think of once in league history, so I guess that can't happen, either...


It's happened many times that teams go from 23 (or worse) to > 47 wins BY KEEPING its leading scorer.

You make a good argument that it's pure luck that we did it the way we did.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> LOL, that's not even close to my outlook, I have never mentioned one player in the draft that I am looking at. Why? BECAUSE IT'S DECEMBER, and as I keep saying we have no idea who will be at the top of the draft in December. We can guess one our two guys, but lots of guys will move up and lots of guys will move down.
> 
> But people are more than welcome to continue their "the draft sucks" mantra, despite the fact that it is waaaaaay too early to know that.
> 
> I am not holding my breath over any scenario. I am just glad that Paxson has set us up to be a player in damn near each and every possible scenario with all our picks and cap space and young talent (since a talent-consolidating trade is deemed necessary by almost everyone on this board.)
> 
> 
> 
> LOL again, I am not "dreaming" or "scheming". I am objectively looking at all the possibilites instead of quickly dismissing each and every one of them as impossible. Because I have complete confidence that Paxson will figure out the best course of action for the Bulls (which obviously goes directly against the beliefs of the "Fire Paxson" club, which isn't surprising).
> 
> Speaking of the "impossible", how many times in NBA history has a team traded away it's leading scorer and then increased their win total from 23 to 47 the next season while adding nothing but rookies? I can't think of once in league history, so I guess that can't happen, either...


It's too bad you've taken the dialogue into the realm of bitter and angry personal attacks, but I guess that's your m.o. and you're sticking to it.

(You'll notice that I didn't feel the need to preface my thoughts on the narrow probabilities of moving up in the draft via lottery luck or an unprecedented trade with generalizations about the loyalties/interests/intelligence of those expressing hopes for the same.) 

As for how accurate people have been with their posts, the notion of you calling out people for that is simply laughable. Just look at this thread.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Pure luck is not a plan. Its pure luck.

I'm not as convinced as others that banking on pure luck is wise.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> With Paxsons record in the draft, I don't really care where the pick lands as long as it's in the top half. The man knows what he's doing. About the only fault I have for him is that he didn't have the manhood to move up and take Wade, choosing the passive road instead. Don't know if anyone has noticed...but Gordon /= Wade.
> 
> As for the trades, this organization has just been awful in this 21st(?) century. I'd just as soon stay away from that...because we also seem forced to make them and they don't turn out right that way.
> 
> And guess what the next trade is? Yup...another one where we're being forced to move Tim Thomas.


If I didn't go on the record as saying so, my preference is to either use the two picks in a package for a Kobe/Garnett level player. If not, I'd just as soon have Pax draft and keep the players as well. There doesn't seem to be much benefit to moving up just a spot or two, and imo there's no way we move into the top three without giving up Deng or Hinrich.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> If I didn't go on the record as saying so, my preference is to either use the two picks in a package for a Kobe/Garnett level player. If not, I'd just as soon have Pax draft and keep the players as well. There doesn't seem to be much benefit to moving up just a spot or two, and imo there's no way we move into the top three without giving up Deng or Hinrich.


I'd give up both picks and Hinrich if I could get a Dwight Howard/Emeka Okafur/Channing Frye level player. I'd trade Hinrich and the two picks for Frye right now...even though I don't think he's on the Howard/Amare level (yet). Thats just how badly we need a big.

And I'd never post in a Hinrich update thread either.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Pure luck is not a plan. Its pure luck.
> 
> I'm not as convinced as others that banking on pure luck is wise.


Drafting good players, hiring good coaches, and ridding your roster of bad players is pure luck. Got it.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Drafting good players, hiring good coaches, and ridding your roster of bad players is pure luck. Got it.



High lotto picks should become great players, unless you are happy with average.

Maybe we'll get lucky with our Cap Space this offseason. We'll need some phantom player to become great and have them agree to sign here. I guess thats a sound plan. Well, no, I don't.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> High lotto picks should become great players, unless you are happy with average.
> 
> Maybe we'll get lucky with our Cap Space this offseason. We'll need some phantom player to become great and have them agree to sign here. I guess thats a sound plan. Well, no, I don't.


We've had one high lotto pick and he's in his 2nd year.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I'm changing my screen name to Gloom&Doom4Ever.

All of Paxsons lottery picks and one of his second rounders are doing very well.

He's hired a good coach.

The team is competitive. 

Why do we keep arguing about this? It's like _some people_ just want to spread their own personal unhappiness around.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> All of Paxsons lottery picks and one of his second rounders are doing very well.


Define very well. Deng is playing very well. Hinrich is pretty good. Gordon. Eh.



> He's hired a good coach.
> 
> The team is competitive.


Good. Competitive. That's nice.



> Why do we keep arguing about this? It's like _some people_ just want to spread their own personal unhappiness around.


Because I'm not happy with average. Perhaps you are. 


You think we have the horses right now to take us farther?


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Define very well. Deng is playing very well. Hinrich is pretty good. Gordon. Eh.
> 
> 
> 
> Good. Competitive. That's nice.
> 
> 
> 
> Because I'm not happy with average. Perhaps you are.
> 
> 
> You think we have the horses right now to take us farther?












:no:


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Define very well. Deng is playing very well. Hinrich is pretty good. Gordon. Eh.
> 
> 
> 
> Good. Competitive. That's nice.
> 
> 
> 
> Because I'm not happy with average. Perhaps you are.
> 
> 
> You think we have the horses right now to take us farther?


Ok, my question is what could Pax have done differently so we're competing for a championship this season?

Kept Rose, Crawford, and Curry?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> :no:


LOL. Good no-answer.

I don't know why you always end up resorting to name calling and accusations of baiting or trolling.

Its my genuine opinion.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> LOL. Good no-answer.
> 
> I don't know why you always end up resorting to name calling and accusations of baiting or trolling.
> 
> Its my genuine opinion.


Plenty of people share some of your opinions. Most of them maintain a proper modicum of netiquette though, in how they present them.

You do not.


It's my genuine opinion. On with the show...


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Define very well. Deng is playing very well. Hinrich is pretty good. Gordon. Eh.


Since you seem to be dissapointed with our drafts, let me ask this:

Who, drafted after Hinrich in 2003, is playing better than Hinrich?

Who, drafted after Gordon in 2004, is playing better than Gordon (outside of Deng)? 

Who, drafted after Deng in 2004, is playing better than Deng?

Please note I'm not looking for a funny quip or another one-liner for an answer.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> Plenty of people share some of your opinions. Most of them maintain a proper modicum of netiquette though, in how they present them.
> 
> You do not.
> 
> 
> It's my genuine opinion. On with the show...


I'm not 100% familiar with all of the rules of netiquette I guess.

Where does posting images of trolls and fish rate?

What does one have to do to get banned?


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

why don't we try to keep this thread sorta on-topic and not about each other.

just a thought.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I'm not 100% familiar with all of the rules of netiquette I guess.
> 
> Where does posting images of trolls and fish rate?
> 
> What does one have to do to get banned?



Ask me a few more questions like these please...


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Who, drafted after Gordon in 2004, is playing better than Gordon (outside of Deng)?


Chris Duhon.


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I don't understand why someone sharing their opinion is considered baiting. So it differs from yours, so it HAS been discussed a lot, that doesn't mean it is without merit. I hear people bashing Curry & Crawford and acting like Pax was a God to make those trades...I strongly disagree but I try to keep it civil and I don't bait people or feel baited...I feel like those folks have misguided views but views they are entitled to nonetheless, it doesn't make me respect them any less.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Since you seem to be dissapointed with our drafts, let me ask this:
> 
> Who, drafted after Hinrich in 2003, is playing better than Hinrich?
> 
> Who, drafted after Gordon in 2004, is playing better than Gordon (outside of Deng)?
> 
> Who, drafted after Deng in 2004, is playing better than Deng?
> 
> Please note I'm not looking for a funny quip or another one-liner for an answer.


I don't have any problems with Paxson's picks other than Gordon.

Wasn't Al Harrington available via trade? I'd rather have Iggy. He's playing marginally better and fits what the team needs more. We didn't need an undersized SG. 

Also, it troubles me that Paxson preferred Gordon over Deng.


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I don't have any problems with Paxson's picks other than Gordon.
> 
> Wasn't Al Harrington available via trade? I'd rather have Iggy. He's playing marginally better and fits what the team needs more. We didn't need an undersized SG.
> 
> Also, it troubles me that Paxson preferred Gordon over Deng.



I'm not sure how you can second guess Gordon's pick the way he has been playing. Still, there was a deal on the table for Harrington but then Indy demanded eitehr both picks or the higher pick at the last moment...there are conflicting reports..and we said no way which was wise.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I think you and K4 think a lot alike. 

Moving on.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I don't have any problems with Paxson's picks other than Gordon.
> 
> Wasn't Al Harrington available via trade? I'd rather have Iggy. He's playing marginally better and fits what the team needs more. We didn't need an undersized SG.
> 
> Also, it troubles me that Paxson preferred Gordon over Deng.


So we're a championship team with Igoudala?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ace20004u said:


> I'm not sure how you can second guess Gordon's pick the way he has been playing. Still, there was a deal on the table for Harrington but then Indy demanded eitehr both picks or the higher pick at the last moment...there are conflicting reports..and we said no way which was wise.


Both? I always heard it was just the higher pick.

I'd rather have Harrington.

The Gordon pick is similar to the Fizer pick. Its sets you up for a problem. I guess Paxson though he was a "special" player ala Iverson... but unless Gordon can play PG... which it sure does not look like he can.... I'd rather have Deng and Harrington. 

I don't like munchkins.

I want Harper, MJ and Pippen back!


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> So we're a championship team with Igoudala?


No, of course not.

Like I said, I don't have many problems with Paxson's picks.... save Gordon.

I think we would be a better team with Curry, Marshall and Crawford.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> So we're a championship team with Igoudala?


I read K4E's post a half doxen times and don't see where he suggests that adding Iggy alone would make us a championship team.

Nice Strawman.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

i'm locking this thread for 24 hours. in honor of scottie.

it will be re-opened saturday. then maybe it can veer back on topic. you know, about larry brown and the knicks. 

you guys kill me.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Nice to see the Knicks lose another one last night, they have now moved back into a tie with Portland for the 4th-worst record in the league.

Also nice to see that AD got a DNP-CD, maybe the Knicks are going to release him soon and he can come back to Chicago where he belongs. PLEASE!


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

AD is getting 23.9 minutes a game on the Knicks.

Seems like he's pretty responsible for the losing in NYC as well, using the logic used on these threads.


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> AD is getting 23.9 minutes a game on the Knicks.
> 
> Seems like he's pretty responsible for the losing in NYC as well, using the logic used on these threads.





http://www.82games.com/0506/0506NYK.HTM


Sure looks that way.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*












:angel:


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> AD is getting 23.9 minutes a game on the Knicks.
> 
> Seems like he's pretty responsible for the losing in NYC as well, using the logic used on these threads.


Good, hopefully that means that Isiah will be cutting him soon, we could use his big body down low for a few minutes a game against some teams. :banana:


----------



## townknave

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Please God let Isiah cut AD... He is the worst player in the league at this point. If you guys want him, more power to ya. If you get him he'll have helped you get not one but two lottery picks this season.


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Another Knicks loss. Another good day. 6-14 now. 










Allstar?

Seriously. Well, maybe not quite seriously, but close.

Tonight he dropped: 30p, 14-18 2-2, 7r, 2a, 2b, s. 

Knicks fans: the rap on NY has always been you can't lose in the city and keep fan interest. Even though the Knick are in a developing year, they have a lot to watch on the court. Whats the vibe of the city on this team?


----------



## jbulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



such sweet thunder said:


> Another Knicks loss. Another good day. 6-14 now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Allstar?
> 
> Seriously. Well, maybe not quite seriously, but close.
> 
> Tonight he dropped: 30p, 14-18 2-2, 7r, 2a, 2b, s.
> 
> Knicks fans: the rap on NY has always been you can't lose in the city and keep fan interest. Even though the Knick are in a developing year, they have a lot to watch on the court. Whats the vibe of the city on this team?


Not the best night for Jamal Crawford. Pretty typical game for Eddy.

Frye looks like a monster. I'll be very curious to see how his rebounding numbers shake out over the course of the season. He started out hitting the boards like a house on fire but has leveled off and is now averaging about 6 a game over 27 minutes. Regardless, he's obviously a seriously good player, and the front runner for ROY with Chris Paul.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



jbulls said:


> Frye looks like a monster. I'll be very curious to see how his rebounding numbers shake out over the course of the season. He started out hitting the boards like a house on fire but has leveled off and is now averaging about 6 a game over 27 minutes. Regardless, he's obviously a seriously good player, and the front runner for ROY with Chris Paul.


He's also exactly what the Bulls need. :curse: 

Well...at least we'll maybe get a Frye-like player with the Knicks pick. I just hope we're not counting our chickens too early. The Bulls were 5-15 through their first 20 games last year. The Knicks are 6-14. You never know with Larry Brown at the helm, so I'm not counting them out yet.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Does anyone else think it's possible that LB is "tanking" so that he can force Isiah into trading for some players who will fit into LB's system?

It was widely speculated before the season ever started that the current Knicks roster was a complete mismatch for LB- well he has tried about 15 different starting lineups and none of them are working.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Does anyone else think it's possible that LB is "tanking" so that he can force Isiah into trading for some players who will fit into LB's system?


No.


----------



## SecretAgentGuy

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Does anyone else think it's possible that LB is "tanking" so that he can force Isiah into trading for some players who will fit into LB's system?
> 
> It was widely speculated before the season ever started that the current Knicks roster was a complete mismatch for LB- well he has tried about 15 different starting lineups and none of them are working.


 Maybe.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> He's also exactly what the Bulls need. :curse:
> 
> Well...at least we'll maybe get a Frye-like player with the Knicks pick. I just hope we're not counting our chickens too early. *The Bulls were 5-15 through their first 20 games last year. The Knicks are 6-14. You never know with Larry Brown at the helm, so I'm not counting them out yet*.


I think the big difference is that last season's Bulls featued a bunch of rookies and second-year players getting a hell of a lot of minutes.

This year's Knicks are a semi-veteran team- their leaders in minutes played are

Marbury 
Crawford
Frye
AD
Q 
Eddy

So last season's Bulls had a lot of room for improvement as the season went along- the current Knicks team is pretty much WYSIWYG, outside of Frye.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> He's also exactly what the Bulls need. :curse:
> 
> Well...at least we'll maybe get a Frye-like player with the Knicks pick. I just hope we're not counting our chickens too early. The Bulls were 5-15 through their first 20 games last year. The Knicks are 6-14. You never know with Larry Brown at the helm, so I'm not counting them out yet.


Is this the same Larry Brown that was the first coach to come home from the Olympics w/o gold?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> Is this the same Larry Brown that was the first coach to come home from the Olympics w/o gold?


Just to be historically accurate, Hank Iba also came home without the Gold in 1972.

It took the worst officiating in the history of organized basketball, but it did happen.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

FWIW, the Knicks have two very winnable games coming up, with Orlando at home, and Atl on the road. If current opinion on the Knicks is correct, and they're better than their record suggests, I would think these next two games would be a decent spot to catapult them out of the quagmire they're currently in. 

However, if that's not the case, and they do not fare so well, I'll feel better about our chances at Secaucus this June.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



rosenthall said:


> FWIW, the Knicks have two very winnable games coming up, with Orlando at home, and Atl on the road.


Is this the same Atlanta that beat up the champions? 



> Despite another memorable shooting performance by Channing Frye and steady play from Eddy Curry and Nate Robinson, the Knicks had their worst loss of the season, and perhaps their worst quarter of the season, to fall to 6-14.
> --
> "We're playing better, we're staying in games, we just haven't figured out a way to finish," Brown said before tip-off. "Hopefully, we are getting better."


Seriously sounds like Skiles during the 0-9 last season.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

So much for the "Larry Brown righting the ship after a poor start" line that's been given here by a few people. Knicks have lost 5 of their last 6.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> So much for the "Larry Brown righting the ship after a poor start" line that's been given here by a few people. Knicks have lost 5 of their last 6.


The Bucks guards (TJ Ford, Williams) and Michael Redd outplayed their Knicks counterparts last night big time. Ford/Williams are a great combination.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



rosenthall said:


> FWIW, the Knicks have two very winnable games coming up, with Orlando at home, and Atl on the road. If current opinion on the Knicks is correct, and they're better than their record suggests, I would think these next two games would be a decent spot to catapult them out of the quagmire they're currently in.
> 
> However, if that's not the case, and they do not fare so well, I'll feel better about our chances at Secaucus this June.


Actually, looking at their schedule through the end of the month, 5 of their games are very winnable (Orlando twice, Atlanta, Indy (no Artest), and Utah). Moreover, 5 of those 8 games are at home. It will be interesting to see what their record looks like come new year's.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

All I can add to this right now is I watched that Knicks/Bucks game and saw a couple of very sweet plays by JC and EC, followed by their negating the good plays with general cluelessness (esp Eddy, who spent a lot of time on defense standing around and looking lost). In short, the usual frustration.

But putting the ex-Bulls aside, the Knicks just look terrible. There is no organization, no team play, horrible spacing, blown assignments. They look like a bunch of guys at the Y playing together for the first time. Larry has really failed to this point. History tells you his team will get better, but right now that team looks like a ship without a captain -- or a rudder, for that matter.


----------



## rlucas4257

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> All I can add to this right now is I watched that Knicks/Bucks game and saw a couple of very sweet plays by JC and EC, followed by their negating the good plays with general cluelessness (esp Eddy, who spent a lot of time on defense standing around and looking lost). In short, the usual frustration.
> 
> But putting the ex-Bulls aside, the Knicks just look terrible. There is no organization, no team play, horrible spacing, blown assignments. They look like a bunch of guys at the Y playing together for the first time. Larry has really failed to this point. History tells you his team will get better, but right now that team looks like a ship without a captain -- or a rudder, for that matter.


I was at the game last night and sat through that crap. Just a couple of thoughts

Nate Robinson is good and will have his highlights. But he plays very out of control and couldnt guard a fence.

Jamal, atleast last night, looked disinterested.

Qrich, as I have always maintained since the day he was drafted, is overrated. He cant guard anyone either. 

Stephon Marbury cant guard anyone. I think he doesnt fit here. He doesnt play smart and with Larry in his ear he is playing tentative. I have never liked Marburys game but he is at his best attacking. 

Curry didnt play badly, in fact I thought after Frye I thought he was pretty good. He did everything that we have missed. He draws double teams in the post and now has learned to pass out of there. Their big guys had decent scoring nights but it was mostly because the Knicks guards got broken down so easily on the drive. 

Channing Frye is a star. Plain and simple. He could score at will yesterday. Great range, athletic ability and ength. Plays with smarts. Is everything we thought Tyson Chandler would be. If he keeps this up, he will beat out Chris Paul and Deron Williams for ROY. 

Larry Brown seemed to coach a bad game to me. Frye was taken out after the first quarter and sat for 8 minutes, Milwaukee outscored the Knicks by atleast 12 over those 8 minutes. He didnt seem to be in any rush in getting his star back in the game. It was almost like he had a mandate to play everyone and was going to do so no matter what the outcome of the game. There is really no need to be playing Jerome James for instance. And then Malik Rose and Butler out of left field make appearances in the 3rd quarter. 

Otherwise, they are disorganized mess. The parts dont fit at all. NY is the leagues most desirable place to play. No matter what anyone says, when a guy goes into FA or wants a trade, that person always expresses interest in NY first. But with the crowd dwindling at MSG and the pieces I think its going to take some time to build it up. They have talent. But the old saying too many chiefs but not enough indians apply here. Everyone is basically an on the ball player. Outside of Frye, who can step out and spread the floor, almost all of the players do their damage when their play is called for them. basically there are no luol dengs on this team, a player who can operate and get open even if the play isnt designed to go for him. If Nate Robinsons number isnt called, he isnt going to do much. So basically their offense is often times 2 on 5. They dont pass. And they cant guard the perimeter. They have pieces to make a trade. And I wonder if Artest wouldnt really help them. Inspite of the talent on the roster and the coach, it doesnt really appear that anyone on the club has that Kirk Hinrich like desire to not lose. There are no loose ball chasers on this team. I think people will bash Isiah and he will eventually take the hit and be fired for this mess, maybe even this year. Cant fault him however for the mess Layden left in terms of contract and lack of talent. They now have talent but its not cohesive. They desperately need a shooter or 2, a backcourt player who is pass first and who can defend (Boris Diaw would be someone I would target if I were them), lose Marbury as he is a chemistry killer, and to find some competitive players to come off the bench.


----------



## RoRo

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

what are your thoughts of frye and curry playing togeather. i noticed in an earlier game curry's ability to draw a double team allowed frye to shoot uncontested jumpers. with frye's insane range that could be a big-time duo.

yeah there seems to be alot of competition on the perimeter to dominate the ball. it's a shame because it should really start with curry and frye. crawford has done the best job setting those two up from the games i've seen. but jc does defer to marbury and robinson all too much and easily.


----------



## rlucas4257

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



RoRo said:


> what are your thoughts of frye and curry playing togeather. i noticed in an earlier game curry's ability to draw a double team allowed frye to shoot uncontested jumpers. with frye's insane range that could be a big-time duo.
> 
> yeah there seems to be alot of competition on the perimeter to dominate the ball. it's a shame because it should really start with curry and frye. crawford has done the best job setting those two up from the games i've seen. but jc does defer to marbury and robinson all too much and easily.



Curry and Frye could be dominant. Particularly offensively. They 100% complement each other. But as good as they are they are going to need a guard to get them the ball and 2 guys who are happy to spread the floor and can shoot. The problem with Marbury and Nate are they are all about Marbury and Nate. The amount of touches Curry had yesterday was ridiculoust considering they were doubling him aggresively. Frye had more touches but mostly because of the pick and spot up. The spacing was atrocious. Only Frye seems to understand how to space the floor.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



RoRo said:


> what are your thoughts of frye and curry playing togeather. i noticed in an earlier game curry's ability to draw a double team allowed frye to shoot uncontested jumpers. with frye's insane range that could be a big-time duo.



It's what we were all hoping Tyson would do.

Its a lesson in: Draft a guy with the skills you want...especially if he's a big.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Lottery pick looks more certain?



> Starting Wednesday night against the Orlando Magic, the lineup will be stable, the rotation shorter and the commitment almost entirely to youth. At least, that is what Brown declared Tuesday. He has changed his mind before.
> 
> A 20-point rout by the Milwaukee Bucks on Monday at Madison Square Garden has put the Knicks in soul-searching mode and prompted Brown, who has used 14 starting lineups, to rethink his methodology.
> 
> There will probably be a 15th lineup Wednesday, but this one should stick. The guards will be Stephon Marbury and Quentin Richardson, joining Channing Frye at power forward and Eddy Curry at center. Brown did not specify who will be his small forward, but he indicated it would probably be Trevor Ariza.
> 
> "I just think now I'm going to try to settle on a lineup a little bit more, settle on a rotation a little bit more and then hope by doing that, we see a little better continuity on both ends," Brown said.
> 
> Continuity has eluded the Knicks since opening night. Three of their off-season acquisitions - Curry, Richardson and Jerome James - have been injured and out of shape. Two veterans, Antonio Davis and Penny Hardaway, are breaking down. Brown used the openings to give playing time to the rookies Frye and Nate Robinson and to experiment with roles.
> --
> The biggest change will come at small forward, where it appears Brown is committing to his youngest options, Ariza and the newly signed Qyntel Woods.
> 
> "Right now, it'd be Trevor and Qyntel," Brown said. "Let the young kids play."
> --
> Brown said that he loved Ariza's heart, but "it's hard, he's not ready, in my mind, to be a starter in this league, but he comes to practice every day, he's getting better every day."
> 
> Brown also concluded that Richardson should not be a full-time small forward, and that Robinson and ! are best coming off the bench.
> 
> But the overriding, if unstated message, was this: The Knicks are fully committed to their youth movement, even at the expense of short-term success. On Monday, they sent Hardaway and Davis to the inactive list and dropped Rose from the rotation.


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/14/sports/basketball/14knicks.html


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Smart move, IMO. They have a great young core that if allowed to develop should be very good. No need to sell out for some cheap, meaningless wins by giving AD and Rose minutes... as if those guys would even help that much to begin with.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> They have a great young core that if allowed to develop should be very good.


A *great* core is only going to be *very good*? 



> No need to sell out for some cheap, meaningless wins


Is any win truly meaningless?

Oh no, not again...


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

This is some of the best news of the year for Bulls fans. The less "meaningless wins" the Knicks get, the more ping-pong balls we get.

Pax better be scouting at the very top of the draft, because it looks like that's where we are headed.

And sort of OT, has "Dammit Pax!" now been replaced with "Thanks Isiah!" as our mantra?


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> This is some of the best news of the year for Bulls fans. The less "meaningless wins" the Knicks get, the more ping-pong balls we get.
> 
> Pax better be scouting at the very top of the draft, because it looks like that's where we are headed.
> 
> And sort of OT, has "Dammit Pax!" now been replaced with "Thanks Isiah!" as our mantra?


I look at this in the opposite way. I think stabilizing the rotation and committing to youth is the only way the Knicks can salvage this season. 

This doesn't encourage me about the value of the Knicks' pick, it makes me think it will degrade between now and July.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> I look at this in the opposite way. I think stabilizing the rotation and committing to youth is the only way the Knicks can salvage this season.
> 
> This doesn't encourage me about the value of the Knicks' pick, it makes me think it will degrade between now and July.



I would agree with you 100%, except that this is Larry Brown we are talking about. I honestly don't think he has the patience to actually stick with the youth and let them play through their mistakes, and IMHO AD and Rose and maybe even Penny will be back in the rotation inside of two weeks.

And it's not like he is dealing with a bunch of rookies- Marbury, Richardson, Curry and Crawford are all in at least their 5th seasons in the league, and none of them have ever shown any inkling of playing the kind of ball LB looks for in his players.


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> I look at this in the opposite way. I think stabilizing the rotation and committing to youth is the only way the Knicks can salvage this season.
> 
> This doesn't encourage me about the value of the Knicks' pick, it makes me think it will degrade between now and July.


To an extent, I can see your point. When you look at the players that Brown has said he's going to concentrate on, it's not like he's going with a full-on youth movement (as Bullsville pointed out). Only Ariza and Frye are what you would call inexperienced.

The day that the Curry deal was done I was skeptical of the Knicks ability to compete. Folks were calling them the fourth best team in the east. I called them the fourth best team in the Atlantic. A quarter of the way thru the season, I see nothing that would make me change my tune. (Actually, I'm not wholly convinced the Knicks aren't the fifth best team in the Atlantic).

I'm not too concerned over the Knicks pick this year. It'll be pretty decent. I'm guessing 8th pick at the worst. The reason I say that is I just don't see 8 teams that the Knicks are better than. Atlanta, Charlotte, Toronto should be worse than the Knicks. Portland is pretty comparable. After that, I just don't think the Knicks are any better. Utah? Houston? Sacramento? Boston? Nope.

I'll take this a step further. We'll be going absolutely ga-ga over the pick swap in 2007. If the Knicks perform as I think they will (bottom 5 in the league) this season, with no discernable ways to improve in the summer of 2006 other than the MLE (only the SA pick, no second rounder? and barring some stupid GM giving them a franchise-level talent for cap relief) and with the continued improvement of younger teams like Atlanta, Toronto and Charlotte, we could very well be looking at a top-3 pick in what is looking to be a VERY deep draft. Especially for athletic bigs.

Put bluntly, I'm not in the least sold on Larry Brown as the answer to the Knicks problems. As long as Zeke is at the helm of that franchise, they'll never get anywhere.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> I would agree with you 100%, except that this is Larry Brown we are talking about.


I honestly wonder if his 'health' issues are going to start flaring up again.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> I honestly wonder if his 'health' issues are going to start flaring up again.


I honestly believe that if the Knicks get to somewhere around 12-29 and Isiah won't make any trades to bring in some LB-type players, Brown will certainly begin to feel ill.


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> I honestly wonder if his 'health' issues are going to start flaring up again.


I'm curious on how long the Knicks have him signed for. Unless something arises, I see him leaving sometime through the next season. He's got his money now, that's all he was after. I don't blame him, for $10M I would basically do anything, but he's not going to be able to save this franchise until they get rid of every bad contract and get below the salary cap, with Zeke in the office, that will never come. They'll lose about $50M off their cap this season (Penny, AD, Houston (majority will be paid by insurance)), but considering Zeke's past actions, they'll just lock themselves up with bad contracts, Jerome James was a terrific signing.


----------



## Kneepad

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



step said:


> I'm curious on how long the Knicks have him signed for.


Some reports said 4 years, some said 5.

It doesn't really matter, though. If either sides wants out before the end of the contract, they will get out.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Kneepad said:


> Some reports said 4 years, some said 5.
> 
> It doesn't really matter, though. If either sides wants out before the end of the contract, they will get out.


Yeah, if there is one thing that Larry excels at besides coaching, it's getting out of contracts.

And for some reason, George sitting in the office spilling food all over the Babe's jersey and driving around the parking lot dragging the World Series trophy just popped into my head.

I can see LB putting on Willis Reed's jersey and wearing it to eat lobster with extra butter sans bib, and saying to Dolan and Isiah "oops, my bad" as melted butter and lobster brine drips down the front of the garment...


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



fl_flash said:


> To an extent, I can see your point. When you look at the players that Brown has said he's going to concentrate on, it's not like he's going with a full-on youth movement (as Bullsville pointed out). Only Ariza and Frye are what you would call inexperienced.
> 
> The day that the Curry deal was done I was skeptical of the Knicks ability to compete. Folks were calling them the fourth best team in the east. I called them the fourth best team in the Atlantic. A quarter of the way thru the season, I see nothing that would make me change my tune. (Actually, I'm not wholly convinced the Knicks aren't the fifth best team in the Atlantic).
> 
> I'm not too concerned over the Knicks pick this year. It'll be pretty decent. I'm guessing 8th pick at the worst. The reason I say that is I just don't see 8 teams that the Knicks are better than. Atlanta, Charlotte, Toronto should be worse than the Knicks. Portland is pretty comparable. After that, I just don't think the Knicks are any better. Utah? Houston? Sacramento? Boston? Nope.
> 
> I'll take this a step further. We'll be going absolutely ga-ga over the pick swap in 2007. If the Knicks perform as I think they will (bottom 5 in the league) this season, with no discernable ways to improve in the summer of 2006 other than the MLE (only the SA pick, no second rounder? and barring some stupid GM giving them a franchise-level talent for cap relief) and with the continued improvement of younger teams like Atlanta, Toronto and Charlotte, we could very well be looking at a top-3 pick in what is looking to be a VERY deep draft. Especially for athletic bigs.
> 
> Put bluntly, I'm not in the least sold on Larry Brown as the answer to the Knicks problems. As long as Zeke is at the helm of that franchise, they'll never get anywhere.


very nice post. For the most part I feel the same way you do. I was not excited that Curry was traded nor did I hail NY as the 4th best team in the east. We went through this last season when Crawford was traded to them and we all know what happened there. I also suspected that curry would have a bad season simply because he never played this last summer. He was out of shape. That was to be expected with all of the drama that went on with him. We will get a nice pick this year. Should be no lower than 8. Very nice with a team such as ours. 

Now I am not in complete agreement with you when it comes to next season. Curry should be well, and ready. That should mean some wins. Just how many I do not know. They should still be marginally better than some of the bottom feeders we see now. Our pick could be high, yet, but not top three unless we just get lucky! 

Of course all of this is assuming that Zeke stands pat with this club and we all know he wont. What if he gets Artest? They still may not make the playoffs but our pick will be lower. 

With some players coming off of the cap this summer, I wonder who Zeke can sign that could help this team? That could somewhat affect the draft pick in 2007.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Marc Berman - NY Post 




> Brown sounded down about the roster and is clearly looking forward to tomorrow, when he expects trade activity to pick up, with 2005 free-agent signees able to be shipped. It's becoming abundantly evident Marbury is not living up to Brown's expectations as a cerebral floor leader.
> 
> "You hope that guys [who have] been in the league long enough to recognize when someone is zoning you, someone's pressing you, when there's a late clock when you're going 2 for 1," Brown said. "You can't keep stopping and trying to coach it."
> 
> Monday night, Brown said the club had to have "a head" on the court.
> 
> "I'm just doing what's asked of me," Marbury said. "To come out and run the team."
> 
> On Brown's remarks, Marbury said, "Coach's opinion." Asked if it was troubling, Marbury said, "Like I said, that's his opinion."


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Monday night, Brown said the club had to have "a head" on the court.


Ouch.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Thanks for the blurb, miz.

I have to agree with Brown, it seems as if the Knicks are woefully short on players with a high basketball IQ (or even an average hoops IQ).

My only fear is that LB will get through to Isiah and convince him to trade for some players who know how to play the game, which will mean more wins for them and less ping-pong balls for us.


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> With some players coming off of the cap this summer, I wonder who Zeke can sign that could help this team? That could somewhat affect the draft pick in 2007.


Noone, they're stuck with their MLE for a couple more years.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> My only fear is that LB will get through to Isiah and convince him to trade for some players who know how to play the game, which will mean more wins for them and less ping-pong balls for us.


Perfect timing:




> "Players that were acquired last summer are eligible to be traded starting tomorrow. According to a source close to Atkins as well as a team source, the Wizards have discussed a trade that would send Atkins and fourth-year forward Jared Jeffries to the New York Knicks in exchange for swingman Quentin Richardson. Atkins played under Knicks Coach Larry Brown in Detroit and, according to several reports, the Knicks are in the market for a defensive-minded small forward."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/13/AR2005121301961.html


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The Wizards would be stupid to do that trade.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I'm with step, I don't see why the Whiz do that trade- unless they don't plan on re-signing Jeffries.

But LB seemingly wants a "pure" PG, and that's not Chucky's game- he's more of a scorer. But he is a better defender than Marbury, without a doubt.


----------



## truth

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



rlucas4257 said:


> I was at the game last night and sat through that crap. Just a couple of thoughts
> 
> Nate Robinson is good and will have his highlights. But he plays very out of control and couldnt guard a fence.
> 
> Jamal, atleast last night, looked disinterested.
> 
> Qrich, as I have always maintained since the day he was drafted, is overrated. He cant guard anyone either.
> 
> Stephon Marbury cant guard anyone. I think he doesnt fit here. He doesnt play smart and with Larry in his ear he is playing tentative. I have never liked Marburys game but he is at his best attacking.
> 
> Curry didnt play badly, in fact I thought after Frye I thought he was pretty good. He did everything that we have missed. He draws double teams in the post and now has learned to pass out of there. Their big guys had decent scoring nights but it was mostly because the Knicks guards got broken down so easily on the drive.
> 
> Channing Frye is a star. Plain and simple. He could score at will yesterday. Great range, athletic ability and ength. Plays with smarts. Is everything we thought Tyson Chandler would be. If he keeps this up, he will beat out Chris Paul and Deron Williams for ROY.
> 
> Larry Brown seemed to coach a bad game to me. Frye was taken out after the first quarter and sat for 8 minutes, Milwaukee outscored the Knicks by atleast 12 over those 8 minutes. He didnt seem to be in any rush in getting his star back in the game. It was almost like he had a mandate to play everyone and was going to do so no matter what the outcome of the game. There is really no need to be playing Jerome James for instance. And then Malik Rose and Butler out of left field make appearances in the 3rd quarter.
> 
> Otherwise, they are disorganized mess. The parts dont fit at all. NY is the leagues most desirable place to play. No matter what anyone says, when a guy goes into FA or wants a trade, that person always expresses interest in NY first. But with the crowd dwindling at MSG and the pieces I think its going to take some time to build it up. They have talent. But the old saying too many chiefs but not enough indians apply here. Everyone is basically an on the ball player. Outside of Frye, who can step out and spread the floor, almost all of the players do their damage when their play is called for them. basically there are no luol dengs on this team, a player who can operate and get open even if the play isnt designed to go for him. If Nate Robinsons number isnt called, he isnt going to do much. So basically their offense is often times 2 on 5. They dont pass. And they cant guard the perimeter. They have pieces to make a trade. And I wonder if Artest wouldnt really help them. Inspite of the talent on the roster and the coach, it doesnt really appear that anyone on the club has that Kirk Hinrich like desire to not lose. There are no loose ball chasers on this team. I think people will bash Isiah and he will eventually take the hit and be fired for this mess, maybe even this year. Cant fault him however for the mess Layden left in terms of contract and lack of talent. They now have talent but its not cohesive. They desperately need a shooter or 2, a backcourt player who is pass first and who can defend (Boris Diaw would be someone I would target if I were them), lose Marbury as he is a chemistry killer, and to find some competitive players to come off the bench.


Great post........

brown finally named his rotation and has hopefully put an end to the madness......

Marbury and Q needed to start in the backcourt together...Any other combo is a nightmare defensively....

Frye and Curry should be a dominant tandem....Curry needs some more smarts,but he opens it up for Frye..and the kid is a lights out shooter..As in Larry Bird lights out(minus the 3 point range)....Look for David Lee to start playing again,as he is the only rebounder/hustle guy on the Knicks

The 3 spot will be Ariza to lose,which he will...Enter Q Woods....In 7 minutes he showed more on the offensive end than Q and Ariza have all year...Any semblanse of a defensive game and he will be starting...

The real issue for the Knicks is Bball IQ,and that is where marbury simply doesnt excel...He has no sense of running a team Brown style,and he simply can not stop dribble penetration...Until the Knicks get a floor general,they are going nowhere..But should they land one,they have major upside


----------



## jbulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Lost to Orlando tonight. By 15. At home. With Francis shooting 3 for 16. Ouch.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=251214018


----------



## jbulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> Perfect timing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/13/AR2005121301961.html


Can Quentin Richardson, Caron Butler, Gilbert Arenas, Antonio Daniels and Jarvis Hayes exist on the same roster? Antawn Jamison makes it tough for anyone to get substantial minutes at the three, as you don't want to play him at PF too much...


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



jbulls said:


> Lost to Orlando tonight. By 15. At home. With Francis shooting 3 for 16. Ouch.
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=251214018


Yeah, I must admit I had a long hard laugh about that. The Knicks actually fooled me into believing that they're improving. Then they lose to the average Bucks and poorous Magic...a Magic team that the Bulls beat twice already this year. Keep up the good work, Knicks. The top 3 pick is getting closer.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



jbulls said:


> Lost to Orlando tonight. By 15. At home. With Francis shooting 3 for 16. Ouch.
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=251214018


AND with Grant Hill coming back and "contributing" 7 points and 5 turnovers in 23 minutes.

I've been back in The Region for 3 months, and tonight was the first time I missed Orlando, I would have loved to have seen this game.

But hey, Eddy had 23 points in 37 minutes, and Jamal had 7 assists in 24 minutes, so all of their fans here on the Bulls board should be happy.

Of course, their fans obviously think de-fense is what keeps the dog in the back yard...

I thought the Knicks would suck this year, but 6-15 is even better than I could have hoped for. 

Now I see why Paxson wasn't at Scottie's jersey retirement ceremony the other night, he has a lot of scouting to do looking at players at the top of the draft.

:clap: :clap: :clap: For Isiah, thanks again!!!


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> I thought the Knicks would suck this year, but 6-15 is even better than I could have hoped for.
> 
> Now I see why Paxson wasn't at Scottie's jersey retirement ceremony the other night, he has a lot of scouting to do looking at players at the top of the draft.
> 
> :clap: :clap: :clap: For Isiah, thanks again!!!


 :biggrin:


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> Yeah, I must admit I had a long hard laugh about that. The Knicks actually fooled me into believing that they're improving. Then they lose to the average Bucks and poorous Magic...a Magic team that the Bulls beat twice already this year. Keep up the good work, Knicks. The top 3 pick is getting closer.


Average Bucks?


----------



## jbulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> Yeah, I must admit I had a long hard laugh about that. The Knicks actually fooled me into believing that they're improving. Then they lose to the average Bucks and poorous Magic...a Magic team that the Bulls beat twice already this year. Keep up the good work, Knicks. The top 3 pick is getting closer.


I thought so too. I'm not ready to completely write them off yet. Not with Larry Brown at the helm and the amount they've played on the road, but they've been just awful their last two games.

It's going to be fascinating to see what happens with them from here on in. Isaiah probably needs to win now to keep his job - he's certainly been buying up talent like that's the goal, and LB seems to want to overhaul the roster and get his kind of guys on the floor. I don't see how their goals can mesh if the Knicks continue to lose. Isaiah's moves have been scrutinized to no end, but it's just mind blowing the choices he's made over the past couple years. The Knicks very easily could've had this roster...

PG- Earl Watson
SG - Stephon Marbury
SF - Trevor Ariza
PF - Channing Frye
C - Eddy Curry

with a bench of Jamal Crawford, Kurt Thomas, Nazr Mohhamed, Nate Robinson, Antonio Davis and David Lee.

That's a playoff team in the east IMO. Instead, they've dealt a bunch of the above guyws and brought aboard Jerome James, Quentin Richardson, Mo Taylor, and Malik Rose. Wow.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



El Chapu said:


> Average Bucks?


Well...not really, I suppose.

It's cliche around here to call any team that's not a contender "average". The Bucks are on pace for about 48 or 49 wins after tonight's loss. The Bulls won 47 last year, but apparently it made for an "average" season.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

FYI - It might be worth mentioning that the Knicks' 6-15 record is exactly where the Bulls were at after 21 games last season. So I guess all isn't lost for New York. However, the Bulls were in the middle of a 5 game winning streak at the time, which I felt was instrumental in getting the momentum going. These next 2 weeks are pivotal for NY, IMO.


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



jbulls said:


> It's going to be fascinating to see what happens with them from here on in. Isaiah probably needs to win now to keep his job - he's certainly been buying up talent like that's the goal, and LB seems to want to overhaul the roster and get his kind of guys on the floor. I don't see how their goals can mesh if the Knicks continue to lose. Isaiah's moves have been scrutinized to no end, but it's just mind blowing the choices he's made over the past couple years.


you know, i think i am in camp isiah. you look at the knicks and they have an exciting young team. they have a franchise front line that will be good for the next ten years. they have some good young wing players; perhaps not starter quality, but definitely assets. what do people expect? this team was in purgatory just a year and a half ago. this is progress.

i feel similar to when i was in camp [gm] jordan. i think people really get caught up on the mistakes and ignore the successes. . .


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> FYI - It might be worth mentioning that the Knicks' 6-15 record is exactly where the Bulls were at after 21 games last season. So I guess all isn't lost for New York. However, the Bulls were in the middle of a 5 game winning streak at the time, which I felt was instrumental in getting the momentum going. These next 2 weeks are pivotal for NY, IMO.


The Bulls won five straight in December and had another 7 game win streak in Jan. 

NY could do that. We shall see.


----------



## rlucas4257

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



such sweet thunder said:


> you know, i think i am in camp isiah. you look at the knicks and they have an exciting young team. they have a franchise front line that will be good for the next ten years. they have some good young wing players; perhaps not starter quality, but definitely assets. what do people expect? this team was in purgatory just a year and a half ago. this is progress.
> 
> i feel similar to when i was in camp [gm] jordan. i think people really get caught up on the mistakes and ignore the successes. . .



I agree with you and Jbulls

The Dolans are fickle. Isiah is probably going to have to win to keep his job. NY doesnt rebuild. And now that MSG is only half full, thats money the Dolans dont see.

Isiah isnt as terrible as most people make him out to be. He had a team with no talent and terrible contracts. He really had 2 choices. Get worse and get the contracts off the books, or trade for talent with just as bad a contracts. The choice is easy because in NYC, you dont rebuild. The knicks now have talent. That cant be denied. He has had an excellent draft despite what his haters said in June. His signing of Curry looks good. The problem is that the talent that he has assembled doesnt fit. I dont like Isiah, but he is nowhere near as bad as most make him out to be. He has assembled talent but can he take that talent, deal certain players away and fix the chemistry issues. Or is that Browns job? One think Isiah could try is just standing pat for awhile. Part of the chemistry problems might be because he is constantly turning over that roster. That eventually got Pitino fired from boston, i think it could get him fired in ny too


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



rlucas4257 said:


> I agree with you and Jbulls
> 
> The Dolans are fickle. Isiah is probably going to have to win to keep his job. NY doesnt rebuild. And now that MSG is only half full, thats money the Dolans dont see.
> 
> Isiah isnt as terrible as most people make him out to be. He had a team with no talent and terrible contracts. He really had 2 choices. Get worse and get the contracts off the books, or trade for talent with just as bad a contracts. The choice is easy because in NYC, you dont rebuild. The knicks now have talent. That cant be denied. He has had an excellent draft despite what his haters said in June. His signing of Curry looks good. The problem is that the talent that he has assembled doesnt fit. I dont like Isiah, but he is nowhere near as bad as most make him out to be. He has assembled talent but can he take that talent, deal certain players away and fix the chemistry issues. Or is that Browns job? One think Isiah could try is just standing pat for awhile. Part of the chemistry problems might be because he is constantly turning over that roster. That eventually got Pitino fired from boston, i think it could get him fired in ny too


very good post! Thumbs up from me. :greatjob:


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Good post, rlucas, but I must point out that Pax was in Isiah's current position not long ago (lots of talent that didn't fit together with the coach).

Pax was smart enough to put together a team that fits perfectly with his coach, Isiah (so far) hasn't done that whatsoever.

It will be very interesting to see if Zeke has the 'nads to trade away some of his "talent" for players who will play the way LB wants.

I don't think he will, but of course I am biased and hoping that he won't since it means a better draft pick for us.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Marbury is playing like an absolute dog.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Mikedc said:


> Marbury is playing like an absolute dog.


Agreed, but is it really a surprise?

Based solely on the guy's reputation, do you really think he wants to play for a coach who expects him to be a pass-first PG who plays hard-nosed defense?

And would you put it past him to dog it so that he will be traded away from the situation I just described?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

BTW, the Knicks' 4-game losing streak is currently the longest in the NBA.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Agreed, but is it really a surprise?
> 
> Based solely on the guy's reputation, do you really think he wants to play for a coach who expects him to be a pass-first PG who plays hard-nosed defense?
> 
> And would you put it past him to dog it so that he will be traded away from the situation I just described?


Nope, I think he's about as far down the list of bad jib players as you can get.

In fairness though, I don't see that the Knicks have much in the way of choices. I've said it a couple times, but I'll ask again - is there any team in the league that would want Marbury?

Short of just plain cutting him I don't know what they can do.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Though Knicks coach Larry Brown said Tuesday he was planning to shrink his rotation, but had used 11 players by halftime. 


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap;_ylt=Ao5dLeNStv1NHJZPPghMW7u8vLYF?gid=2005121418


So much for tightening up the rotation, that idea didn't even last one half.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> BTW, the Knicks' 4-game losing streak is currently the longest in the NBA.


But they're improving... and look at their schedule... and not enough home games... and it's Larry Brown, he'll pull them out... and 25 point scorers all over their roster... and Eddy Curry was 2nd in minutes played for the Bulls last year... so you know, 4th seed in the playoffs... :laugh:


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Mikedc said:


> Nope, I think he's about as far down the list of bad jib players as you can get.
> 
> In fairness though, I don't see that the Knicks have much in the way of choices. I've said it a couple times, but I'll ask again - is there any team in the league that would want Marbury?
> 
> Short of just plain cutting him I don't know what they can do.


I think he can help a team as long as A) there's already a star there who keeps the team in check and B) he's surrounded with some tough, gritty role players. The mistake teams (Nets, Suns, Knicks) have made is to think they can build a team around Marbury, which just isn't going to happen.

I don't know of too many teams that fit that criteria. Maybe the Mavs?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Mikedc said:


> Nope, I think he's about as far down the list of bad jib players as you can get.
> 
> In fairness though, I don't see that the Knicks have much in the way of choices. I've said it a couple times, but I'll ask again - *is there any team in the league that would want Marbury?*
> 
> Short of just plain cutting him I don't know what they can do.


Yes, but unfortunately the only GM in the league who wants "Star"bury is the same one who couldn't live without Eddy Curry or Jamal Crawford.

You think LB wouldn't love to have Kurt Thomas and Deke on his frontline right about now?


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*











http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/375058p-318725c.html




> Isiah Thomas finally got around to calling the Indiana Pacers yesterday regarding Ron Artest, but the Knicks president made it known that he has no interest in trading away any of his young players.
> 
> "The ball's in the Indiana Pacers' court," Thomas told reporters before last night's loss to Orlando. "And I'm sure at the end of the day they will make the best decision for their organization and their franchise."
> 
> The Pacers are committed to honor Artest's trade request and have attracted interest from plenty of teams. Thomas coached Artest with the Pacers and believes he could be a productive player and good citizen in New York. But at what cost?
> 
> Indiana would take Channing Frye, but Thomas reiterated last night that the rookie forward is not available.
> 
> "I wouldn't," Thomas said. "I wouldn't part with them. I wouldn't part with any of them."
> 
> When asked if that meant players from his previous two drafts - Trevor Ariza, Nate Robinson and David Lee - Thomas simply replied: "Yes."


----------



## jbulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

A story on Malik Rose and Nate Robison's shower fight (over a bet on a Monday night football game)...odd...

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/375258p-318887c.html


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

"Nate tried to jump on me when I was naked, thinking he had the advantage that way," Rose said.

:raised_ey


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



such sweet thunder said:


> "Nate tried to jump on me when I was naked, thinking he had the advantage that way," Rose said.
> 
> :raised_ey


Word is little Nate never stops talking. I guess you have to have a lot of energy to contribute on the basketball court at 5'9". Looks like that energy carries over to bizarre shower incidents too. I'm not sure I'd want that guy on my team unless he was one of the best players. He might get real annoying real quick.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



such sweet thunder said:


> "Nate tried to jump on me when I was naked, thinking he had the advantage that way," Rose said.
> 
> :raised_ey


[Shudders at old deeply buried prison memories.....]


----------



## rlucas4257

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Its interesting, Nate Robinson was a totally a "right way" type of player on draft night. Little guy, busts his rump, makes it big. But all indications are that he doesnt seem to put any limitations on himself and that his ego is the size of the room. He is all of 5-7 (no way is he even 5-9) trying to fight Malik Rose? THats just frickin stupid. And didnt he try to fight 7-2 Jerome James at the beginning of the year? I think he could be a cancer. His game is all highlight but no substance.


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Theres a good/bad game on the schedule for tonight: Knick v. Hawk. Hawks have been hot as of late. Knick on a bit of a dip, but this is one of the teams they are genuinely more talented then. A victory for the Hawk would move them within one game of NY/Charlotte/Portland for climbing out of the cellar.


----------



## rlucas4257

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



such sweet thunder said:


> Theres a good/bad game on the schedule for tonight: Knick v. Hawk. Hawks have been hot as of late. Knick on a bit of a dip, but this is one of the teams they are genuinely more talented then. A victory for the Hawk would move them within one game of NY/Charlotte/Portland for climbing out of the cellar.



I actually think the Knicks are among the upper half of teams in terms of talent. They are chalk full of lottery picks, former allstars, etc. But zero chemistry.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



such sweet thunder said:


> Theres a good/bad game on the schedule for tonight: Knick v. Hawk. Hawks have been hot as of late. Knick on a bit of a dip, but this is one of the teams they are genuinely more talented then. A victory for the Hawk would move them within one game of NY/Charlotte/Portland for climbing out of the cellar.


I'm looking forward to this game. Given the trade, I want the Knick to lose as many games as possible to give us the best draft position. Would love to see the Knick get handed their shorts by the Hawk. Hoping we take care of our own business against the Piston, too. Good night for basketball, though there's a good chance of a double disappointment (Knick win & Bull loss).


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



rlucas4257 said:


> I actually think the Knicks are among the upper half of teams in terms of talent. They are chalk full of lottery picks, former allstars, etc. But zero chemistry.


If you define talent in terms of physical gifts and flashy play, then I agree. Problem is that I don't think there are very many smart players on that squad. Granted I've never tested them, but I get the impression that Jamal, Ed, Starbury, Q, etc are all about equal to a box of rocks in the mental arena. The best players always seem to have a good head for the game, something those guys just don't seem to have.

BTW -- rather than this being an IQ assessment, I consider it a BBall IQ assessment. Magic Johnson, for example, has never come across as a genius, but his basketball IQ was amazing.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> "I haven't slept in two months," Brown said. "It's much more difficult right now than I ever imagined. When you look at the last two games, you think we'll never be able to win another game."


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/58860.htm

Thats very Phil Jacksonesque coaching/motivating right there.



> "If you have to tell them a thousand times, you tell them," Brown said. "Some kids you tell once, they get it. Right now, I feel we have to tell them over and over again and it gets frustrating, reminding guys the same things. I think they're trying, or they think they are."


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/58860.htm

I'm telling you...those 'health problems' are going to flare up again.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> Magic Johnson, for example, has never come across as a genius, but his basketball IQ was amazing.


OT:

Oh, I don't know...he seems to be a pretty sharp cookie in the business arena too.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

You know, I think Isiah's biggest blunder in the off-season was trading Kurt Thomas for Quentin Richardson. It's one of those situations where on paper you're getting more "talent", not to mention a younger set of legs. But I truly believe that Kurt Thomas would be making a big difference for them. Q is giving them absolutely nothing they didn't have already.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> OT:
> 
> Oh, I don't know...he seems to be a pretty sharp cookie in the business arena too.


Is he? I was remembering back to his short-lived talk show that just completely bombed...


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> You know, I think Isiah's biggest blunder in the off-season was trading Kurt Thomas for Quentin Richardson. It's one of those situations where on paper you're getting more "talent", not to mention a younger set of legs. But I truly believe that Kurt Thomas would be making a big difference for them. Q is giving them absolutely nothing they didn't have already.


I agree. Almost. Isaiah's biggest blunder was keeping the GM. After that came the Thomas for Richardson deal. Really liking the Channing Frye acquisition. What has happened to Lee? Is he still performing well? I know for a while people were impressed with him.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> Is he? I was remembering back to his short-lived talk show that just completely bombed...


OT:

I think something like 9 out of every 10 new talkshows fail.

I was referring to his movie theaters and his starbucks franchises and the other stuff he's got going on.


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> I was referring to his movie theaters and his starbucks franchises and the other stuff he's got going on.


Yes he's quite a successful businessman, now if only he and MJ would team up and buy a team already!!!


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Yeah, I suppose, its a synthesis of chemistry and talent. I don't like saying chemsitry because it brings in images of effort and heart.

Eddy could work as hard as possible, and still not be able to score if he doesn't get the ball in the right spots at the right time. Is that a talent issye or a chemistry thing? Its a talent issue because Eddy needs certain conditions to excel. Its a chemistry issue because his teammates are not able to put him in spots to succeed. 

The Knicks just don't have a Luol Deng type who is skilled enough to excel in less then ideal conditions. They have a group of players who can contribute at a high nba level -- but need a perfect backdorp.


----------



## madox

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Yesterday the Hawks were 1.5 pt favorites to beat the Knicks, then news comes that Curry's out with a sprained ankle, and today all of a sudden the Knicks are 1.5 pt favorites!

Follow the money!


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> BTW -- rather than this being an IQ assessment, I consider it a BBall IQ assessment. Magic Johnson, for example, has never come across as a genius, but his basketball IQ was amazing.


Not a bad businessman though. Scottie Pippen is a better example.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



madox said:


> Yesterday the Hawks were 1.5 pt favorites to beat the Knicks, then news comes that Curry's out with a sprained ankle, and today all of a sudden the Knicks are 1.5 pt favorites!
> 
> Follow the money!


Are you serious?

That can't be good for Eddy's ego, wow.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

As for Magic, I'll never forget one line from his press conference where he was announcing his retirement...

..."due to the HIV virus which I have *attained*".


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Knicks playing no defense against the Hawks -- Hawks 62 - 50 with 4 min left in the 1st half.

They look very confused and disorganized on both ends. Maybe Larry Brown has given up trying to shape this team up.


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Halftime score is 71-62, Atlanta. Knicks close out the half on a run to keep it "close." 133 pts in a half: Its 1975 and they're keeping the funk alive.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Al Harrington and Joe Johnson put up incredible first half stats. They combined for something like 19-23 from the field, and 8-8 from 3-point line (both were 4-4 on 3's).


----------



## spongyfungy

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

no defense whatsoever. Jamal is 8-8 FG. 23 pts


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> Al Harrington and Joe Johnson put up incredible first half stats. They combined for something like 19-23 from the field, and 8-8 from 3-point line (both were 4-4 on 3's).


Kind of like Jamal's line right now.

8-8 FG
4-4 3PFG
3-3 PT

Not much D being played in this one.

Unlike the Bulls game.... where one team is playing great D.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

That Jamal Crawford is great at putting up awesome numbers for a complete crap team.

Larry Brown always used to say that he wanted to finish out his career coaching a High School team. 

He finally got his wish.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

With 5 minutes left in the game, the Hawks have missed 23 shots and grabbed 10 offensive rebounds.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Make that 25 misses and 11 offensive rebounds with 2:20 left in the game.

If it wasn't for their 17 turnovers, the Hawks would put up 150 tonight.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The Knicks, meanwhile, have 11 assists on their 40 baskets.

That's some real team ball they're playing.

When this one is over, the Knicks will be ONE GAME ahead of the Hawks.

Only 1/2 game ahead of the Bobcats.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

These are great days to be an anti-Knicks fan.

They should try to make a trade with the Bulls for Tyson Chandler. 

Then they would be good.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

What is really awesome for Bulls fans is to be only 1 1/2 games from the 2nd best record in the East AND sitting in position to have the #3 pick in the draft AND about $20 million in cap space.

It can't be said enough, *Thanks Isiah!!!* 

You are the one who gave us all that cap space and the great draft pick.

I LOVE ISIAH!!!!!


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Kind of like Jamal's line right now.
> 
> 8-8 FG
> 4-4 3PFG
> 3-3 PT
> 
> Not much D being played in this one.
> 
> Unlike the Bulls game.... where one team is playing great D.


Only difference is that Atlanta was winning the whole game, making Harrington and Johnson's numbers the more meaningful.

And the Bulls are playing the best team in the league on the raod, whereas the Knicks are playing the 2nd worst team.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> Only difference is that Atlanta was winning the whole game, *making Harrington and Johnson's numbers the more meaningful.*
> 
> And the Bulls are playing the best team in the league on the raod, whereas the Knicks are playing the 2nd worst team.


Don't you mean "making Harrington and Johnson's numbers meaningful"?

Numbers put up in a game where your team trailed by double-digits the entire night are about as meaningless as they can get.

And the Hawks are 3-7 in their last 10 while the Knicks are 2-8, so I'm not sure the Hawks aren't the better team.

Only Charlotte and Portland (both 2-8) are as bad as the Knicks in their last 10 games.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> The Knicks are now 6-11, a mere 1.5 games out of first in their division and only 2.5 games behind the Bulls for the number 8 seed.
> 
> The Knicks (and Detroit) have had the fewest home games of any team in the league so far this season -- six.
> 
> The Knicks (and Charlotte) have had the most road games of any team in the league so far this season -- eleven.
> 
> The Knicks have played nearly half (8/17) of their games vs. Western Conference teams, and only three vs. teams from their own division.
> 
> Maybe the title of the thread should be edited to revise "meltdown" to "working the kinks out"?


This is bumped from page 20. 

Even I'm surprised by how bad the Knicks are.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Nice bump, Frankensteiner, the Knicks are really "working the kinks out". 

Unless, of course, losing 5 in a row is considered to be "working the kinks out".

And, like you, even I can't believe the Knicks are *this* bad.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

It's ok, Larry Brown's getting them to play defense.

If it wasn't for the Knicks, this would be such a sad basketball night.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2005121601

The Hawks shot 63 percent from the field, best in the NBA this season. Atlanta entered shooting 43.6 percent as a team, 25th in the league. 

Dallas had the NBA's best shooting percentage when it hit 59 percent in a 119-82 home victory over Detroit Nov. 19.

Jamal Crawford scored 23 points and Stephon Marbury added 21, but he had a game-high six turnovers for the league's most mistake-prone team. Channing Frye added 16 points and seven rebounds for the Knicks, who never led. 

--------------

Damn, the Hawks shattered the league's season-high for FG%.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I'm trying to figure out if I should get excited about Al Harrington playing for the Bulls. 11-21 and 13-19 the last two games... not bad. Seems like he's pretty good about getting his own shot.

Would almost consider giving the Hawks our lower 1st rounder just so no other team can trade for him and convince him to sign before hitting free agency.


----------



## YearofDaBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

63% eh. Where's the defense? Oh well I'm hoping for a complete meltdown. Larry Brown took the money and I bet you he is regretting the move. Then again he's laughing to the bank. Isiah has an eye for talent but oh boy he can't put a team together. How long are they going to leave him as GM?


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> I'm trying to figure out if I should get excited about Al Harrington playing for the Bulls. 11-21 and 13-19 the last two games... not bad. Seems like he's pretty good about getting his own shot.
> 
> Would almost consider giving the Hawks our lower 1st rounder just so no other team can trade for him and convince him to sign before hitting free agency.


Yeah, Harrington is starting to intrigue me...even before tonight.

He's only 25 years old, and has improved steadily each and every season since he entered the league. Very versatile with a good inside-outside game. Average on interior defense (which we need), but he's very good at stepping out and defending perimeter guys. If he were just 1 or 2 inches taller! But still, I'm sure he's at least on Paxson's radar.


----------



## johnston797

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> Yeah, Harrington is starting to intrigue me...even before tonight.


Yea, but as he plays better and Williams looks farther away, it means the Hawks are going to lay out big money to keep him. I'm not too excited about max or near max for Baby Al.


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> it means the Hawks are going to lay out big money to keep him. I'm not too excited about max or near max for Baby Al.


He seems pretty keen to get out of there, plus i'm not sure they're going to committ to him anyways.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Seems interesting that two of the more popular candidates to use our 3 year Cap Space plan on are Joel Pryzbilla and Al Harrington.

Both are on a couple of the worst teams in the league record wise.

Both get heavy minutes on "crap" teams. 

I'm curious why people think they could help us much, given the logic applied by many on this thread.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Seems interesting that two of the more popular candidates to use our 3 year Cap Space plan on are Joel Pryzbilla and Al Harrington.
> 
> Both are on a couple of the worst teams in the league record wise.
> 
> Both get heavy minutes on "crap" teams.
> 
> I'm curious why people think they could help us much, given the logic applied by many on this thread.


The Bulls need a big man who can rebound and block shots, and that's what Przybilla does. That's why I'd like to see the Bulls go after him, he fills an obvious need.

The fact that he gets 27.6 minutes (which I had no clue was considered "heavy" minutes, that's barely half the game) on a crap team has nothing to do with anything as far as I'm concerned- the fact that he is a very good rebounder and an outstanding shot-blocker does matter to me. 

That's what I see by watching him play, which is how I evaluate players- I can't speak for others, however. I know there are some people who judge players based solely on their stats, which is pretty silly IMHO, but that's their right. Just like there are people who judge players based on how flashy they are on offense- I think that's pretty silly as well, but again, that's their right.

I don't really see a need for Harrington, IMHO he just duplicates what Deng brings to the table, and IMHO Deng is a hell of a lot better player. But if we can sign him to a reasonable contract, he becomes a valuable asset if we want to move him. Of course, the same goes for Przybilla.

I don't feel that we should sign ANYONE to a contract that overpays them just because we have the cap space- for example, I think the Cavs were crazy to give Hughes the max last summer just because they had the cap space and he was a free agent. I certainly wouldn't give Przy or Harrington the max just because we can, as the Spurs and Pistons have shown giving reasonable contracts to players who are worth the money is the best way to go.

And I really have no clue what the "logic applied by many on this thread" is supposed to mean- if you have an opinion on someone's evaluation of a player, express it. 

If you have an opinion on Przybilla or Harrington, express it- all I have seen you do in this post is call anonymous people out, which I thought this board was trying to get away from?


----------



## SALO

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Seems interesting that two of the more popular candidates to use our 3 year Cap Space plan on are Joel Pryzbilla and Al Harrington.
> 
> Both are on a couple of the worst teams in the league record wise.
> 
> Both get heavy minutes on "crap" teams.
> 
> I'm curious why people think they could help us much, given the logic applied by many on this thread.


I have never been afraid of adding quality players from "losing teams." I wanted Boris Diaw last year even though he couldn't get any minutes on one of the worst teams. I'd certainly take a flyer on that Bosh kid too BTW. :yes: 

I think Pryz and Al are realistic targets, and I'd be very happy if we got them both. Both players are a couple seasons away from even reaching their prime!

I'm intrigued by Harrington because even at his size, he is very good at defending the perimeter. When MJ played for the Wizards he said Harrington and Artest defended him the best. If we wanted to go "big" on the perimeter a combo of Harrington / Deng at the SF/SG positions could be imposing. There would be situations where Al could play SF on offense and SG on defense. Al could give us minutes defensively guarding three different positions, so I think we could make the minutes work. Nocioni becomes an expiring contract next season, so he could always be moved to free up more minutes if we wanted to go that route.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



SALO said:


> I have never been afraid of adding quality players from "losing teams." I wanted Boris Diaw last year even though he couldn't get any minutes on one of the worst teams. I'd certainly take a flyer on that Bosh kid too BTW. :yes:
> 
> I think Pryz and Al are realistic targets, and I'd be very happy if we got them both. Both players are a couple seasons away from even reaching their prime!


I agree. I would be happy to acquire both as well. I just don’t' know how may people agree, given the postings on this thread. Not just BV either.

It seems whenever a Knick that used to be a Bull has a good performance, somehow its meaningless since the Knicks are a losing team. 

Does not add up. 

Players on losing teams could help us a great deal. If a player on a losing team is performing well, those strong performances are not automatically invalidated due to their losing team.

I'd have some concerns about Pryz and Chandler playing together. I'd rather have a big man that can help us with our inability to get much scoring done in the paint by our big men against other teams with strong post presences. Perhaps Chandler would return to his bench role, Pryz could be our 5 and Sweets our 4? I guess that could work. Baby Al I would love on this team, although I still think we would need to acquire a legitimate starting 5 since Chandler seemingly can't play that position.

This Chandler albatross, along with the loss of our previous center, has left us in a bind. Pryz would be a nice target. We’re already paying a pretty penny for a supposed rebounding and shot blocking specialist though.

Once again though, he's on a losing team. This does not bother me…. But I’ve heard many, many times on this board that strong performances for a losing team are to be heavily discounted. From Jamal Crawford, to Eddy Curry, to Mike James.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

SALO, good point about Nocioni- I have read that he is already contemplating a return to Europe when his contract is up after next season, and if he does Harrington would be a pretty good replacement if he comes at a reasonable price.

Of course, he could always pull a Joe Johnson and give away a nice spot in the rotation on a title contender just so he can make a few extra million dollars a year, even if it means playing for one of the worst teams in the league. If that's the case, I don't want him, anyway.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Jeez, how did I know it all came back to Eddy and Jamal not getting their props?

And BTW, the same goes for Tyson- he had a decent 8 rebounds and 3 assists in 28 minutes tonight against the most dominant 4/5 combo in the NBA, but it's pretty damned meaningless since we got blown out.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Jeez, how did I know it all came back to Eddy and Jamal not getting their props?


Przybilla tonight.
24 minutes
2 points
5 rebounds
2 blocks
4 turnovers
4 fouls

Portland gets creamed.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2005121622

You like this guy and Chandler a lot, right?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> And BTW, the same goes for Tyson- he had a decent 8 rebounds and 3 assists in 28 minutes tonight against the most dominant 4/5 combo in the NBA, but it's pretty damned meaningless since we got blown out.




Chandler, except for about a 4 minute stretch, played like crap tonight.

Overall, a very bad game for Chandler.

He made absolutely no difference out there whatsoever, as has been the case for most of this season.

Jeez, I just noticed our team didn't block even one shot tonight.

How on earth can Curry be averaging more blocks per game than Chandler?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I read this on another board, but it couldn't be more true about the Knicks:

"That team is like the cast of the Wizard of Oz. No courage, no brains, no heart."


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



rlucas4257 said:


> Its interesting, Nate Robinson was a totally a "right way" type of player on draft night. Little guy, busts his rump, makes it big. But all indications are that he doesnt seem to put any limitations on himself and that his ego is the size of the room. He is all of 5-7 (no way is he even 5-9) trying to fight Malik Rose? THats just frickin stupid. And didnt he try to fight 7-2 Jerome James at the beginning of the year? I think he could be a cancer. His game is all highlight but no substance.


fighting malik rose over 2 dollars seems bad , but common sense says it wasn't the amount of money as much as malik saying he wouldn't pay him period, essentially shorting a guy whom i suspect has a massive napolian complex, if he can go after jerome james , i cant see why he would in his own mind back down from malik rose


players have to learn their limitations , in college he could slash to the hoop much easier than he can as a pro, there are no 6'6 centers in the nba , the question is will he be the same guy in 2 years ?

will he still take reckless shots , not know how to distribute (because i have my doubts he will ever be more than a sparkplug...he just might one day be a highly effective one, if he cant run pg he is just a midget 2, who can defend small ones very well , and the others can be trouble) and still make rookie mistakes, then he is a problem ...overall i think his feistiness is a plus and can be a source of great strength if he channels it right , but like anything else if you use it wrong it can be very detrimental.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> "That team is like the cast of the Wizard of Oz. No courage, no brains, no heart."


Larry, I don't think we're in Kansas anymore...


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

LB and the knicks are very near to self destruct. I have said from day one this team is soft and has zero chemistry. Not only are they going no where but i think we need to start the how games will the knicks win. I say between 26 and 28 games. We will get the 6th pick in the draft and the 17th as well. IT is spending 125 million for what is the sadnes team in the nba. 

david


----------



## jbulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I agree. I would be happy to acquire both as well. I just don’t' know how may people agree, given the postings on this thread. Not just BV either.
> 
> It seems whenever a Knick that used to be a Bull has a good performance, somehow its meaningless since the Knicks are a losing team.
> 
> Does not add up.
> 
> Players on losing teams could help us a great deal. If a player on a losing team is performing well, those strong performances are not automatically invalidated due to their losing team.
> 
> I'd have some concerns about Pryz and Chandler playing together. I'd rather have a big man that can help us with our inability to get much scoring done in the paint by our big men against other teams with strong post presences. Perhaps Chandler would return to his bench role, Pryz could be our 5 and Sweets our 4? I guess that could work. Baby Al I would love on this team, although I still think we would need to acquire a legitimate starting 5 since Chandler seemingly can't play that position.
> 
> This Chandler albatross, along with the loss of our previous center, has left us in a bind. Pryz would be a nice target. We’re already paying a pretty penny for a supposed rebounding and shot blocking specialist though.
> 
> Once again though, he's on a losing team. This does not bother me…. But I’ve heard many, many times on this board that strong performances for a losing team are to be heavily discounted. From Jamal Crawford, to Eddy Curry, to Mike James.


I don't believe people ought to to discount players on bad teams - with the exception of a handful of legitimate difference makers nobody in the NBA is above being trapped in a bad situation, regardless of how well they play. I do think it's important to pay attention to context and situation when analyzing a player's performance and worth. 

Touching briefly on the guys you mention here - I still think Curry is going to make an All Star team or two before his career is done. Crawford looks to me like a good versatile 6th man, I can't see him being a 2nd option on a very good team. James is fine, but I do take his numbers this year with a grain of salt because he's 30, and this season (which is just 20 games old) is by far the best he's ever played. If he keeps it up for a whole year I'll be impressed, but I'm not sure he will.

The bottom line is that players from bad teams help good ones all the time. Boris Diaw and Raja Bell are doing it this year in Phoenix. Antonio McDyess was an important cog for the Pistons last year, likewise Nazr Mohammed for the Spurs. Ray Allen has been fantastic for Seattle since the deal with the Bucks. You just have to be careful, and it doesn't hurt to really take a long look at the situation they're in and figure out what kind of an effect it's having on their performance.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Seems interesting that two of the more popular candidates to use our 3 year Cap Space plan on are Joel Pryzbilla and Al Harrington.
> 
> Both are on a couple of the worst teams in the league record wise.
> 
> Both get heavy minutes on "crap" teams.
> 
> I'm curious why people think they could help us much, given the logic applied by many on this thread.


No one is claiming Crawford and Curry are bad players just based on their playing for a bad team. I've seen enough of them through 4+ years to know they're not very good. That both play prominent minutes on such a horrendous team is simply _additional_ evidence of why they're so overhyped.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://www.knickerblogger.net/?p=335

I turned the TV off. 

And I rarely turn the tv off. Even in a blowout loss, there are a few interesting things that can make the game worthwhile. Sometimes the 11th & 12th man will make an appearance, and the end of the bench guys are always fan favorites. In the tail end of his career, assistant coach Herb Williams would come off the bench to cheers of “Herb! Herb! Herb!” Unfortunately Larry Brown’s rotation is so deep that seeing the 11th man isn’t reserved for blowouts. Hence the little joy I got last year from a Bruno Sundov sighting isn’t even there this year. 

Although the chance of coming back from a 20 point deficit is miniscule, being around for one can be an exhilarating experience. The best NFL game I ever watched was the Jets Monday night game against the Dolphins, where they rallied from 23 points down in the final quarter and won the game in OT. But watching the last Knicks’ game, I felt like Popeye after he’s gotten his *** kicked for the last time. “I’ve stood all I can stands, and I cants stands no more!” And off the tv went. 

Right now, the Knicks have sunk to rock bottom. It was understandable when they lost to the Clippers and Suns just last week. Both teams are having good seasons, and the Knicks went into the 4th quarter of each game either tied or winning. But after those two games, they lost by 20 to the Bucks, and by 15 to the Magic. If back to back humiliations weren’t bad enough, they followed it up by getting laughed out of Atlanta. 

Normally this would be acceptable for a rebuilding team. I can watch the Jets because I can find a silver lining whether they win or lose. If they win, well it should be obvious why that would be a joyous occasion. However, if they lose, at least I can console myself knowing the Jets are getting a better position in next year’s draft. Unfortunately the Knick have denied me even that. New York is tied for the 4th worst record in the league, and as the Bucks showed last year it’s entirely possible to win the draft lottery from that position. However the Knicks have already traded their first round pick unconditionally to the Bulls in the Eddy Curry deal. I can’t even take solace that every loss would make their second round pick better, because they’ve traded that pick away for Maurice Taylor. I can’t take solace that they could grab the top pick in the 2007 draft, because they’ve given the Bulls the option to swap those picks as well. 

In other words, every Knick defeat lacks any positive merit. Isiah Thomas has gone all in with this year’s team, and right now he has the worst hand at the table. He’s sold off everything the Knicks own in the next two years to do it, and so far the results are 6-16. Right now Isiah’s only chance is some superstar forcing his way to New York, and those odds are as slim as getting an inside royal flush. Boston is not going to trade Paul Pierce to a division rival, Kevin Garnett is happy now that the ‘Wolves are winning again. LeBron, Kobe, Duncan, Nowitzki, Amare, Nash, or McGrady, aren’t going anywhere. The Knicks are the guy at the poker table with a **** hand, not drawing any cards, who keeps peaking at them hoping that somehow they’ve changed from the last time he looked. 

So the next time you’re watching the Knicks, and they’re getting blown out by one of the worst teams in the league, don’t think of how they might have gotten Rudy Gay, Andrea Bargnani, or LaMarcus Aldridge. Just turn the tv off.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Knicks 91, Pacers 91 with 3:39 left in the game.

Can the mental midgets pull one out?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Pacers 102
Mental Midgets 96

Knicks now 6-17 overall, 3-6 at home.

This is turning out to be an absolutely perfect sports day for me.

My Patriots destroyed the Bucs 28-0, and it wasn't that close.

My Wildcats beat #4 Louisville easily.

The Mental Midgets lose once again, adding another ping-pong ball or two to the hopper.

And the Bulls are up 22 with 4 minutes left in the 3rd quarter.


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

great post. I wonder if we will be ready about how much talent the knicks have it is early and they will still make the playoffs? What great potential they have. I watch the knicks quite a bit on the nba package and i can tell you they are just awful. LB is going to have a heartattack soon.

The biggest problem with the knicks is the same issue with EC. EC does not have a heart problem he doesnt have any heart at all and neither does the knicks team as a whole. Just a bunch of frontrunners.

david


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=450303&sid=2278a662de8f928cf41bd210fd9ca15c


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=450303&sid=2278a662de8f928cf41bd210fd9ca15c


That thread is terrible.


> Hinrich isn't anything to go gaga over...Ridnour was picked way later and is comparable
> ...
> David West is putting up #'s on a garbage team. Can you say a poor-poorer-poorest man's SAR?





> So is Channing Frye. Is he good?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

step- it's the RealGm Knicks' board, most threads there are horrible.

Last summer, they were convinced that they were giving us Shanndon Anderson and Moochie Norris for Jamal and ERob's contract that expired one year sooner than JYD's, just because it was in one of the NY papers.

It was funny, I posted in one of their threads that there was no way in hell that Pax would do that deal, simply because it did nothing at all to help the Bulls (as common sense would have told anyone). It gave us no cap relief at all, in fact the Bulls would have been better off letting Jamal walk for nothing than taking back Anderson and Norris.

Despite those obvious facts, one of the MODS on that board told me that I was just crying that Pax was about to make a deal that I didn't like and that I should look elsewhere for sympathy.

If you ever want some real comic relief, just go read that board for a few minutes. 

Or give me a few minutes and I'll show you the thread I am referring to, it's a classic.


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> step- it's the RealGm Knicks' board, most threads there are horrible.


I disagree. If there is a board that is most similar to us it's the Knicks fans, even despite the fact that they have a lot of our old players.


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> step- it's the RealGm Knicks' board, most threads there are horrible.


Indeed, from what I could gather it seems they've managed to perfect the cloning process... 100 Ballscientists.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I agree. I would be happy to acquire both as well. I just don’t' know how may people agree, given the postings on this thread. Not just BV either.
> 
> It seems whenever a Knick that used to be a Bull has a good performance, somehow its meaningless since the Knicks are a losing team.
> 
> Does not add up.
> 
> Players on losing teams could help us a great deal. If a player on a losing team is performing well, those strong performances are not automatically invalidated due to their losing team.
> 
> I'd have some concerns about Pryz and Chandler playing together. I'd rather have a big man that can help us with our inability to get much scoring done in the paint by our big men against other teams with strong post presences. Perhaps Chandler would return to his bench role, Pryz could be our 5 and Sweets our 4? I guess that could work. Baby Al I would love on this team, although I still think we would need to acquire a legitimate starting 5 since Chandler seemingly can't play that position.
> 
> This Chandler albatross, along with the loss of our previous center, has left us in a bind. Pryz would be a nice target. We’re already paying a pretty penny for a supposed rebounding and shot blocking specialist though.
> 
> Once again though, he's on a losing team. This does not bother me…. But I’ve heard many, many times on this board that strong performances for a losing team are to be heavily discounted. From Jamal Crawford, to Eddy Curry, to Mike James.


Harrington has played on some pretty good Indiana teams. He's PROVEN that he can fit with a winning basketball team. And his versatility cannot be ignored, on both ends of the floor. That's why he intrigues me. He'd settle in pretty nicely here.

Przybilla I am only sold on at the right price. I watch him and see a pretty good role playing center with size who can board and block shots. Every team can use a player like him in some capacity.


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The knicks team is like a fish that cant swin. They are going down and fast. They are now tied with Atl for the third worse record in the nba. LB sound beat and i bet he doesnt make it the whole season. He is going to get sick again and have to retire. They lose to Orlando and Atl in back to back home games. At the garden of all places. the knicks will be lucky to win 30 and right now they look like they will only win about 25. top 5 pick. And we will need it.

david


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> He's PROVEN that he can fit with a winning basketball team.


So has Curry.


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> However the Knicks have already traded their first round pick unconditionally to the Bulls in the Eddy Curry deal. I can’t even take solace that every loss would make their second round pick better, because they’ve traded that pick away for Maurice Taylor.


That made me laugh, and sadly I didn't know the pick was unconditional, I thought IT knew better.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Nice win by the Hawks today pulling into a tie with the Knicks at 6-17. 

With their loss to the Hawks in their only meeting, the Knicks are now the 3rd worst team in the NBA, 1/2 game ahead of Charlotte and 2 1/2 games ahead of Toronto. 

The meltdown continues as the Hawks are playing better lately and improving while the Mental Midgets have lost 6 in a row, although it's hard to fathom that they could actually finish the season behind the Hawks.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



step said:


> That made me laugh, and sadly I didn't know the pick was unconditional, I thought IT knew better.


I read a recap of a radio interview that IT did, and he apparently feels that Eddy IS his first-round pick next summer and that since it's such a weak draft he isn't missing out on anything.

Of course, that means that he gave us Sweets and the 2007 switch option and the 2 2nd-round picks for free.

Thanks again, Isiah!!!


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Isn't this year's draft considered weak?


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Isn't this year's draft considered weak?


I'd consider it average at this moment, but I think more would declare in order to escape the 07 clog.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



step said:


> I'd consider it average at this moment, but I think more would declare in order to escape the 07 clog.


Man, I hope this isn't another draft like the 2000 debacle.

Draft picks... always very risky.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

According to Isiah, next summer's draft is weak.

Personally, I don't know how he can tell, he apparently didn't look at any mock drafts from last December which show how much things will change between now and the end of June. For example, from what I have read at this time last year Bogut wasn't even a lottery pick, and he turned out to be pretty good. 

Paul Davis seems to be this year's big man who is rising, he's a 20/10 guy who has legitimate center size at 6-11 and 270. But IMHO you can't judge him fully until the Big Ten season gets underway and then see how he does in the NCAA Tourney.

But if people want to already proclaim that next year's draft sucks, that's certainly their right.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> I read a recap of a radio interview that IT did, and he apparently feels that Eddy IS his first-round pick next summer and that since it's such a weak draft he isn't missing out on anything.
> 
> Of course, that means that he gave us Sweets and the 2007 switch option and the 2 2nd-round picks for free.
> 
> Thanks again, Isiah!!!


LOL at Isiah...he's calling the upcoming draft weak because he's trying to make his trade look better. 

It's no worse than average, IMO...and it has potential to be fairly good. There are 3 college players likely to enter the draft who have great potential at the NBA level: Gay, Morrison, and Aldridge. There are a number of foreigners likely to enter who also have great potential. There's a pretty large handful of guys who will be very good pros...maybe not superstars, but starter quality.

The Curry trade has not been particularly kind to either party so far. But the Knicks are in much worse shape, and they've negated their only way of obtaining high caliber talent (excluding trade options).


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> The Curry trade has not been particularly kind to either party so far. But the Knicks are in much worse shape, and they've negated their only way of obtaining high caliber talent (excluding trade options).


The question with the Knicks is do they have a young core in place that can evolve into a contender.

Frye, Curry, Azria, Lee, Crawford.

The allure of NYC to attract FAs or players demanding trades.

I wonder how many GMs contemplating a rebuild would mind starting with those 5 guys.


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Certain posters in this thread, on both sides of the fence, should be spin doctors for a living. Seriously. 


Nothing divides a room full of Bulls fans more than Eddy Curry. Except maybe Marmite, or Jennifer Love Hewitt.


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

:banana: 

My banana dances for marmite.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



such sweet thunder said:


> :banana:
> 
> My banana dances for marmite.


Marmite sux! I'd rather have Jennifer Love Hewwitt any day!



_Who is Marmite?_


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> The question with the Knicks is do they have a young core in place that can evolve into a contender.
> 
> Frye, Curry, Azria, Lee, Crawford.
> 
> The allure of NYC to attract FAs or players demanding trades.
> 
> I wonder how many GMs contemplating a rebuild would mind starting with those 5 guys.


My take? I think most GM's would love to rebuild starting with Frye & Curry as your bigs. Ariza, Lee, and Crawford all strike me as bench player types though. They're not the sort of guys I would want to build around.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

From Marc Berman in the New York Post

----------------

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/59074.htm 

LARRY Brown has had three losing seasons in 33 years of coaching in the NBA, ABA and college. So it's pretty safe to say this season we're witnessing the worst coaching job of Brown's career. 

Thursday marks the two-year anniversary of Isiah Thomas' reign as Knicks president. The teary testimonials that greeted Thomas' first anniversary will not resurface. 

Thomas said the Knicks are in "rebuilding mode," yet probably won't get to keep his lottery pick the next two years because of the trade for Eddy Curry. That's precious. 

But while Thomas certainly must take his share of the heat, it is Brown who has driven the Knicks into a 6-17 grave. 

It's not just the roster. It's also the coach. The unstable rotation has made players unsure of their roles, resulting in an utter lack of chemistry. 

Past the season's quarter-pole, other teams are melding. The Knicks, however, have regressed, losers of six straight, owners of an outrageous 16 different starting lineups in 23 games. Brown has committed the profession's cardinal sin: overcoaching. 

The latest Brown faux pas was the inexplicable seven-game inactive sentence he gave to rookie forward David Lee. Brown has whined about not having enough rebounding or ball movers, but the fundamentally gifted Lee is all that. 

Brown finally unleashed Lee Saturday against the Pacers, and the rookie provided a giant jolt across the last 4:59 of the first half, blocking a shot, laying in an offensive rebound, tapping another ball back to the perimeter to keep a possession alive. Lee then brought the Garden fans out of their seats with a driving tomahawk slam. 

Acting as if he didn't want Lee to turn into the game's story, Brown only played him nine minutes total, none in the fourth quarter. So there were ancient Antonio Davis and Maurice Taylor on the court in the final 30 seconds, standing like statues as Austin Croshere wiggled between them for a game-clinching layup. 

That Brown believes Davis, Malik Rose and Taylor deserve to play over Lee is mind-boggling. But then again, Brown is the guy who played 11 of 12 players on his roster opening night in Boston — the DNP belonging to Channing Frye. 

"I know we have a great coach and I have a lot of confidence he'll find a way to make it all work," Thomas said on WFAN over the weekend. "Larry typically starts slow with teams and he always finds a way to win." 

Thomas made a candid admission, saying that had he known Brown would be hired as the Knicks' coach, he may have made his offseason acquisitions differently. Thomas was referring to the Quentin Richardson/Nate Robinson-for-Kurt Thomas exchange and, possibly, the Jerome James signing. 

"There are players on the team he probably wouldn't have wanted or wouldn't have picked," Thomas said. 

That the Knicks have the NBA's highest payroll is a clue that basketball talent exists on the roster, that they should be .500. James Dolan is paying Brown close to $10 million a year to get underachievers to maximize their talents and "play the right way." Brown was hired to make Stephon Marbury a better player in the clutch. Herb Williams could have coached the Knicks to 6-17, too — for about $8 million less. 

For two weeks, Brown has said he must do a better job coaching. By now, Brown may actually mean it. The overpaid coach is pressing like his overpaid players. 

Brown claims to be so embarrassed by the Knicks' play he wants to wear "a hat and sunglasses" to his son's youth games. He should add the fake-nose/mustache getup, too. 

[email protected]


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> _Who is Marmite?_


----------



## dkg1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

"play the right way." What a concept!


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Sam Smith's Latest

New York, New York

Eddy Curry remains out with an ankle sprain for the Knicks, who are about to be passed by the Hawks in the conference standings. Those around the team say Stephon Marbury now responds to questions about coach Larry Brown with either "no comment" or "next question."


----------



## dkg1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Man what a mess this organization is. I deleted portions of the article, hopefully this isn't too much. My browser is screwed up so I was unable to copy and paste the link. From the NY Daily News:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/376015p-319526c.html


Point to Marbury 

Isiah can save face if he loses Stephon. 
By FRANK ISOLA
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER 


The marriage of Stephon Marbury and Larry Brown has been pointless so far this season. 

The tension inside the Knicks' locker room hasn't been this elevated since Don Nelson was making Patrick Ewing stand 20 feet from the basket. And we all know how that ended.

Larry Brown and Stephon Marbury were predicted to butt heads in a similar fashion and they've certainly had their moments. It took eight games for Marbury to express his frustration with Brown's offense and one day for Brown to go back at his point guard. Then after throwing Marbury roses for four weeks, Brown delivered a stinging criticism last Monday when he said of his team, "We don't have a head out there." Guess who Brown is talking about?

Caught in the middle, of course, is Isiah Thomas, who is responsible for acquiring Marbury as well as the rest of the roster and for hiring Brown. It used to be easy for Thomas to recognize a problem and remove it when players from previous regimes were still loitering at Madison Square Garden.

*But the days of blaming Scott Layden for everything from Shandon Anderson to the cost of concession-stand hot dogs are over. The roster has Thomas' DNA all over it and now he is caught in an unfamiliar and delicate position because his coach is clearly unhappy with the personnel and isn't afraid to say it.

Nary a loss passes without Brown questioning the toughness or basketball IQ of his players. Before Friday's debacle in Atlanta, Brown said that an unnamed player was unaware that the shot clock sits above the backboard.*

*The Knicks' 6-17 record and Brown's criticism of the players reflect poorly on Thomas, who has never been publicly questioned within the Garden since arriving in town on Dec. 22, 2003. It must be eating him up that Brown has been openly critical of Marbury, Jamal Crawford and Nate Robinson, three guards who play nothing like Thomas once did and are now on his permanent record.

This week marks the second anniversary of Thomas' hiring as Knicks president. The day is sandwiched between a game against the champion San Antonio Spurs and a visit from the Utah Jazz, whose coaching staff includes Layden. Thomas vowed improvement when he came aboard and yet two years after the fact, the Knicks aren't in the same universe with teams like the Spurs. In fact, impatient Knicks fans are as frustrated with Thomas as they ever were with Layden. * 
The Knicks' record during Layden's run was 174-181, including a 50-32 mark in 1999-2000. The Knicks reached the conference finals in 2000 and the following year lost to the Raptors in the first round.

Thomas' overall record as team president is 69-91. The Knicks made the playoffs two years ago under Thomas with a roster of mostly Layden's players.

Thomas is shrewd enough to know that another bad season does little to enhance his job security. That's why he keeps saying the Knicks are rebuilding despite owning the league's highest payroll. He's now getting more defensive and defiant. In an interview with WFAN on Friday, Thomas said he doesn't regret a single transaction he has made. 

We'll give Thomas the benefit of the doubt and just assume that the names Vin Baker and Jerome James escaped him at that moment.

If you gave Brown truth serum and asked him what moves he wishes Thomas could take back, be prepared for a long answer. Signing James to five-year, $30 million contract and dealing away Kurt Thomas for Quentin Richardson just to settle a feud between Thomas and Marbury would top the list. 

Thomas' draft record is solid and he should be lauded for believing in Channing Frye. David Lee and Trevor Ariza can be productive role players. Even Robinson, whose cocky attitude is wearing on Brown and several teammates, has a future.

*But most of Thomas' trades and signings have backfired. Thomas knows it and he can see that Brown isn't helping matters. You can almost see Thomas biting his tongue when the coach removes James or Richardson or when Robinson, one of Thomas' pets, was made inactive Saturday against Indiana.

Thomas, however, realizes that if he goes to war with Brown he won't win. His only option is to make a move that will placate the coach and place responsibility on Brown's shoulders if it doesn't work out. Which brings us back to Marbury, whom Brown tried unsuccessfully to have removed from the Olympic team one week before the Athens Olympics. He won't be denied a second time.*



These days, Marbury sits at his locker before game-day shootarounds and makes snide comments to teammates about reporters' fashion sense and personal hygiene. He has never sounded so cruel and small.


Thomas was hailed for acquiring Marbury and now he has no other option but to trade Coney Island's Finest. That one move would help both Brown and Marbury and save Thomas.


YOUR MOVE, ISIAH


[EDITED by mizenkay to add Daily News link and to edit out some more of the article - thanks!)


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Wow. Things going south quickly in Gotham...

This is why I'm loving the NY picks these next two years. Zeke has pretty much painted himself into a corner. If Brown supposedly wants to move Marbury, I can't imagine any team in the league that would want to take him on - not with what he's left to be paid. If some team were to try to deal for Marbs, they're going to view that as doing NY a favor. Generally, the team trying to deal the albatross contract (Marbs) is going to need to give something of value to entice another team to take on the contract. Much like what we did to get rid of Rose by bundling Marshall with him. The problem is, NY has really only one asset to deal and that's Frye. Their 2006 pick is gone. I doubt any team is going to take what looks like their 2007 pick (ours because we're gonna swap with them) and I have a hard time with any GM willing to wait until the summer of 2008. I don't think Marbs is going anywhere.

They've got $90 mil tied up in two centers who have a history of underachievement. Four guards who are less than ideal (Marbs, Craw, Robinson and Richardson) two small forwards who are the very definition of raw (Ariza and Woods) a bunch of old, undersized power forwards (Rose, Davis, Taylor - only Frye is worth anything) and the aforementioned centers. To top it off, they have almost no picks the next two years (San Antonio's first this year, ours next year it would seem and I don't believe they have any seconds for the next two years). 

They're woefully over the cap so they've only got the mle to dole out. The free-agent class this summer is less than stellar and even tho I've read on numerous occasions that NY is the end-all be-all of free agent destinations, I don't think many guys who are looking for rings or wins are going to be beating down Zeke's door to go there. It'll be four years or so before the Knicks have any workable cap space - and that's without Zeke making any more boneheaded deals. He's got to resign Ariza, and THAT should be interesting.

If the Knicks continue to have a very poor 2006, I can only imagine that 2007 is going to be even worse for them. Short of some sort of Artest for cap relief move by the Pacers, I just don't see how Thomas is going to be able to wheel and deal himself out of the mess HE created - and yes, he created it. Look at their roster. There's not a single player left on that team from the 02-03 season. He took over about one-fourth of the way into the 03-04 season and promptly cleaned house. Every player on that roster has his stamp on it (or DNA as the above article implies).

The Eddy Curry trade is going to be looked at as one of the most one-sided deals in NBA history before all is said and done.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



fl_flash said:


> Wow. Things going south quickly in Gotham...
> 
> This is why I'm loving the NY picks these next two years. Zeke has pretty much painted himself into a corner. If Brown supposedly wants to move Marbury, I can't imagine any team in the league that would want to take him on - not with what he's left to be paid. If some team were to try to deal for Marbs, they're going to view that as doing NY a favor. Generally, the team trying to deal the albatross contract (Marbs) is going to need to give something of value to entice another team to take on the contract. Much like what we did to get rid of Rose by bundling Marshall with him. The problem is, NY has really only one asset to deal and that's Frye. Their 2006 pick is gone. I doubt any team is going to take what looks like their 2007 pick (ours because we're gonna swap with them) and I have a hard time with any GM willing to wait until the summer of 2008. I don't think Marbs is going anywhere.
> 
> They've got $90 mil tied up in two centers who have a history of underachievement. Four guards who are less than ideal (Marbs, Craw, Robinson and Richardson) two small forwards who are the very definition of raw (Ariza and Woods) a bunch of old, undersized power forwards (Rose, Davis, Taylor - only Frye is worth anything) and the aforementioned centers. To top it off, they have almost no picks the next two years (San Antonio's first this year, ours next year it would seem and I don't believe they have any seconds for the next two years).
> 
> They're woefully over the cap so they've only got the mle to dole out. The free-agent class this summer is less than stellar and even tho I've read on numerous occasions that NY is the end-all be-all of free agent destinations, I don't think many guys who are looking for rings or wins are going to be beating down Zeke's door to go there. It'll be four years or so before the Knicks have any workable cap space - and that's without Zeke making any more boneheaded deals. He's got to resign Ariza, and THAT should be interesting.
> 
> If the Knicks continue to have a very poor 2006, I can only imagine that 2007 is going to be even worse for them. Short of some sort of Artest for cap relief move by the Pacers, I just don't see how Thomas is going to be able to wheel and deal himself out of the mess HE created - and yes, he created it. Look at their roster. There's not a single player left on that team from the 02-03 season. He took over about one-fourth of the way into the 03-04 season and promptly cleaned house. Every player on that roster has his stamp on it (or DNA as the above article implies).
> 
> The Eddy Curry trade is going to be looked at as one of the most one-sided deals in NBA history before all is said and done.


Nice post! :greatjob:


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I think in the next CBA they ought to include a bankruptcy provision. A team like NY who has no players, no prospects, a huge payroll and seemingly no end in site should be able to declare NBA bankruptcy. In so declaring, all but two player contracts become void -- none of those players can even re-sign with the team. Also the coach and GM of the team must be fired. The owner will then be allowed to sell the team to a new ownership group and be permanently banned from any participation in the sport.

The new team will be treated as an expansion team.... cap flexibility, future draft prospects (those that weren't traded away) and the ability to sign journeymen and free agent prospects should allow the team a better opportunity for growth than what the Knick has now.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> I think in the next CBA they ought to include a bankruptcy provision. A team like NY who has no players, no prospects, a huge payroll and seemingly no end in site should be able to declare NBA bankruptcy. In so declaring, all but two player contracts become void -- none of those players can even re-sign with the team. Also the coach and GM of the team must be fired. The owner will then be allowed to sell the team to a new ownership group and be permanently banned from any participation in the sport.
> 
> The new team will be treated as an expansion team.... cap flexibility, future draft prospects (those that weren't traded away) and the ability to sign journeymen and free agent prospects should allow the team a better opportunity for growth than what the Knick has now.


This is *Wynn!*'s world, and the rest of us are just living in it.

Best outside the box, out of left field proposal I've heard in a long time. I love it.


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Wynn,

By far the best post of the year.

david


----------



## madox

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Interesting idea, Wynn, but why would the Knick ownership declare "bankruptcy" when they're literally raking it in?

The fans would have to boycott. 

Maybe season ticket holders could vote to file a figurative Chapter 11. That would be great!


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Best outside the box, out of left field proposal I've heard in a long time. I love it.


Indeed. Respect++


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Well, I'm glad Wynn's idea isn't available, because the Knicks are now officially the 2nd-worst record in the league, only 2 games ahead of Toronto for Numero Triente.

Charlotte beat Sacramento in OT to move to 7-18, percentage points ahead of the Knicks. And Toronto won in Orlando to move with 2 games of the Mental Midgets.

I can't possibly believe the Mental Midgets will possibly finish the season with the 2nd worst record in the league, but it's nice to imagine it since it stands that way right now, over 1/4 of the way through the season.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> The question with the Knicks is do they have a young core in place that can evolve into a contender.


In my opinion.......no. And it's not particularly close.



kukoc4ever said:


> Frye, Curry, Azria, Lee, Crawford.
> 
> The allure of NYC to attract FAs or players demanding trades.
> 
> I wonder how many GMs contemplating a rebuild would mind starting with those 5 guys.


Again, IMO........not many. 

Honestly, as far as young cores go......or any core for that matter............I would feel comfortable rating that as bottom 5 in the league. The only player in that group that I'd feel comfortable relying on as a 'building block' going into the future would be Frye. 

You yourself have stated many times how weak this FA class is. (Which I agree more or less agree with, BTW). For one, I'm not sure there's a FA this summer that's good enough to reverse the fortunes of the Knicks right now. And if there is a player that good, I'm not sure how the Knicks are going to get him with the MLE.

The Knicks look to be in a tough spot. 

Really tough.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> LOL at Isiah...he's calling the upcoming draft weak because he's trying to make his trade look better.
> 
> It's no worse than average, IMO...and it has potential to be fairly good. There are 3 college players likely to enter the draft who have great potential at the NBA level: Gay, Morrison, and Aldridge. There are a number of foreigners likely to enter who also have great potential. There's a pretty large handful of guys who will be very good pros...maybe not superstars, but starter quality.
> 
> The Curry trade has not been particularly kind to either party so far. But the Knicks are in much worse shape, and they've negated their only way of obtaining high caliber talent (excluding trade options).


Yodurk, I love ya man, but with regards to the draft, I really think you're polishing a turd here, bud. 

Some of the top prospects are nice, but really, I don't think they're better than the top ones in past drafts, and no one has really stood out as someone who is a decent bet to turn into a legit-all star type player within his first 3 years. 

Someone may jump out of the pack in the coming weeks, and I hope they do, but as of right now, the draft is pretty weak. It'd have to be pretty bad to reach the same level as the 2000 one, but right now, I'd say it's closer to the 2000 draft than a really good one, like 1998.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



rosenthall said:


> The Knicks look to be in a tough spot.
> 
> Really tough.


Yah, kind of like when Zeke took over 2 years ago.

I wonder how many would take Frye and Curry over Chandler and an unknown chance to get Lemarcus Aldridge.


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Yah, kind of like when Zeke took over 2 years ago.
> 
> I wonder how many would take Frye and Curry over Chandler and an unknown chance to get Lemarcus Aldridge.





Give it a bleedin' rest. They have Frye, and they have Curry cos no one else wanted him. That doesn't amount to much of a core. You conveniently left out Hinrich, Deng, yadayadayada......but then, you know that already.




Anyway, here's a little somethign I wrote about what I would do with regards to the Knicks. Take a goosy gander, and remember to be nice.


http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?t=226255


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Wow, I have never seen a Bulls fan go through so much trouble trying to show that 2 Knicks are better than .............

Ah, screw it, it's an old story by now.

I just wonder how many of those 42% of ESPN voters who said that Eddy would be an All-Star are feeling? Not nearly as smart as the guy who picked Excuses Constantly as his fantasy bust, I'm guessing.

It's funny, I thought the Knicks were a playoff team last year when they added Jamal. Nope.

Then this season, they added the best coach in the league and Eddy and Frye, they should certainly be at least a .500 team, right? Oh, wait.............


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

At least when the inevitable fire sale starts, we should get a chance to see how much "trade value" guys like Marbury and Q and JC and James have.

It's funny, Isiah takes over a capped-out 30+ win team and on his 2nd anniversary, they have the 2nd worst record in the entire NBA.

Pax took over a capped-out 30-win team and on his 2nd anniversary, they had the 3rd-best record in the Eastern Conference and were getting ready to start the playoffs.

If people want to praise Zeke while ripping Pax, that has to tell you something about where their loyalties lie- because it's so freaking obvious to any neutral observer who has done the better job of rebuilding his franchise over the first 2 years that only a Knicks homer could even suggest that Isiah has.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Still no answer to the question.

Pax has done a better job than Zeke at getting his team to and keeping his team at a .500 level, no question.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

wow shambulls, that was a hell of a post! Nicely done!


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Yeah, nobody answered the question whether they would take Excuses Constantly and Channing Frye over Tyson Chandler and some mystery player who isn't even on the Bulls roster yet...

Or is it Tyson Chandler and a ping-pong ball?

Or is it Tyson Chandler and C Space?

Or is it Tyson Chandler and (B Gordon + C Space)

Or is it Tyson Chandler and (Kirk Hinrich + Knicks 2006 very high lottery pick + C Space)

Or is it Tyson Chandler and (B Gordon + C Space + Bulls 2006 first-rounder)

Or is it Tyson Chandler and (Knicks 2007 first-rounder)

Whichever, it will never match Frye and Constantly.


----------



## ChiBulls2315

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

LOL


That is all. 


:cheers:


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Yah, kind of like when Zeke took over 2 years ago.


Yes, Zeke took over a situation 2 years ago that was terrible. And 2 years later, the situation is still terrible. He inherited possibly the team with the bleakest future in the league, and after his moves, they still probably have the bleakest future of any team in the league.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.



kukoc4ever said:


> I wonder how many would take Frye and Curry over Chandler and an unknown chance to get Lemarcus Aldridge.


Well, I imagine most would probably take Frye and Curry.

However, the point you originally made was about the quality of the Knicks young core, and I responded that I think their core is bad. 

In response, you didn't really address my contention, but instead, made a regression and broke apart what you identified as their core into its individual components, and then compared those parts of the Knicks that you feel are better than the Bulls, and seemed to imply that because those individual parts are better, it automatically means the Knicks 'young core' is better than the Bulls' 'young core', which I think is a rather specious analysis. I'm sure most GM's would rather have Rashard Lewis and Ray Allen as their wings than Adrian Griffin and Josh Howard, but I'm guessing most GM's would rather take the group of players on the Mavericks roster than the group of players for the Sonics.

So, I'm not sure how your response addresses the issue that the Knicks 'young core' _as a functioning whole_ is pretty bad.........a core that I think isn't too hot, whether compared to the Bulls' or any other teams.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Still no answer to the question.
> 
> Pax has done a better job than Zeke at getting his team to and keeping his team at a .500 level, no question.


What question?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



rosenthall said:


> Well, I imagine most would probably take Frye and Curry.


Yah, probably.




> However, the point you originally made was about the quality of the Knicks young core, and I responded that I think their core is bad.


That's cool.




> In response, you didn't really address my contention, but instead, made a regression and broke apart what you identified as their core into its individual components, and then compared those parts of the Knicks that you feel are better than the Bulls, and seemed to imply that because those individual parts are better, it automatically means the Knicks 'young core' is better than the Bulls' 'young core', which I think is a rather specious analysis.


I didn't say those things. I didn’t address your contention because you were stating your opinion that you rated the Knicks core pretty low. What can I say? If that’s your opinion, then fine.

As a whole, right now, the Bulls are clearly a better functioning young team. 

If you are into .500, these are the salad days. 

Going forward, if you think that our undersized team can really make a difference in the NBA, then there is a lot to be excited about.





> I'm sure most GM's would rather have Rashard Lewis and Ray Allen as their wings than Adrian Griffin and Josh Howard, but I'm guessing most GM's would rather take the group of players on the Mavericks roster than the group of players for the Sonics.


Right, but Chandler was our most effective player last year... not a HAWK. And most admit our best chance to move ahead in the league is that draft pick. 



> So, I'm not sure how your response addresses the issue that the Knicks 'young core' _as a functioning whole_ is pretty bad.........a core that I think isn't too hot, whether compared to the Bulls' or any other teams.


The Knicks are not playing well right now, no doubt about it.

Brand, Artest and Miller lost a lot of games as well.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

It must be awful to be a Knicks fan these days. I thought about this today and I can't possibly think of another team with a less promising future (in such a horrible situation for so long). No draft picks, no cap space, just horribly overpaid and overrated vets paired with one decent young player.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> It must be awful to be a Knicks fan these days. I thought about this today and I can't possibly think of another team with a less promising future (in such a horrible situation for so long). No draft picks, no cap space, just horribly overpaid and overrated vets paired with one decent young player.


I don't know, if I am reading kukoc4ever correctly, he would rather have the Knicks current roster and salary structure/cap situation than the Bulls roster and salary structure/cap situation, right?

So maybe it's not so bad being a Knicks fan, if their future is brighter than the Bulls, because the Bulls' is looking pretty freaking good right about now (to most people, not all, and of course those who disagree are more than welcome to their opinions, respectfully).

EDIT: But it has to really suck to watch your team suck and not even know that you're working on a high lottery pick. Not only this season, but next season as well.

I know at least when the Bulls were rebuilding, we always had the draft lottery to look forward to and to discuss on the boards. Knicks fans don't even have that, and it must be killing them (especially if there are any Knicks fans in the world who used to be Bulls fans but converted after Jamal and/or Excuses went to the Big Apple).


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

It just hit me that the Mental Midgets should really be 5-18 and only one game ahead of Toronto if the Bulls wouldn't have handed them a game. Darnit.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> I don't know, if I am reading kukoc4ever correctly, he would rather have the Knicks current roster and salary structure/cap situation than the Bulls roster and salary structure/cap situation, right?


kukoc4ever for KnickerBlogger? It works under trade checker...

We can maybe throw-in "our best guard who Paxson didn't draft, or did, but was going to cut him so he didn't really draft him" in Chris Duhon?


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> I don't know, if I am reading kukoc4ever correctly, he would rather have the Knicks current roster and salary structure/cap situation than the Bulls roster and salary structure/cap situation, right?
> 
> So maybe it's not so bad being a Knicks fan, if their future is brighter than the Bulls, because the Bulls' is looking pretty freaking good right about now (to most people, not all, and of course those who disagree are more than welcome to their opinions, respectfully).
> 
> EDIT: But it has to really suck to watch your team suck and not even know that you're working on a high lottery pick. Not only this season, but next season as well.
> 
> I know at least when the Bulls were rebuilding, we always had the draft lottery to look forward to and to discuss on the boards. Knicks fans don't even have that, and it must be killing them (especially if there are any Knicks fans in the world who used to be Bulls fans but converted after Jamal and/or Excuses went to the Big Apple).


Honestly, the Knicks appear to have a decent future on the horizon, and the main reason IMO is Frye, who looks like a star in the making. Hell, he's about as good as anyone we have on our roster right now, and he's a rookie. And he appears to be both offensively and defensively compatible with Curry, which is a good thing. Frye+Curry > Curry+Chandler IMO. 

NY has two talented, sizeable big men who can score. I don't like the look of the rest of their roster though. Marbury, for all his talent, seems far more adept at leading bad teams than good ones. He just doesn't make teams win, which is what you should do when you make max dollars. Crawford is good some of the time and inconsistent on the whole, much like Ben right now. Ariza can guard but can't score half the time. Q hasn't done jack for that team. Lee is an energy guy who can board. Lil' Nate is a 5'9" shooting guard. Look for him to win the dunk contest this year but not contribute to too many wins until he develops some ability to distribute and improve his horrible shot selection. 

That's just a strange roster. Obviously, it isn't working right now. The cap situation is terrible, although Isaiah could potentially turn AD or Penny into something of value between now and the deadline. Overall, the Knicks are in a similar situation to us in that they desperately need internal improvement to become a contender. Crawford, Curry, Frye, Nate, and Lee have to become better players, or it's going to be a tough next five years at the Garden.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> EDIT: But it has to really suck to watch your team suck and not even know that you're working on a high lottery pick. Not only this season, but next season as well.




The only thing worse would be being a Tyson Chandler fan now-a-days.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> The only thing worse would be being a Tyson Chandler fan now-a-days.


Tyson was saying his breathing problems are behind him today in the Trib. Let's hope we start seeing results. Just having him return to his form from the end of last year would be a huge boost to this team.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> Tyson was saying his breathing problems are behind him today in the Trib. Let's hope we start seeing results. Just having him return to his form from the end of last year would be a huge boost to this team.


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...sbits,1,5531783.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines

Chandler breathing easy

Tyson Chandler said he believes his health problems are behind him. Chandler takes medication for a hiatal hernia and recently began using an inhaler before practices and games for exercise-induced asthma.

"I can definitely tell the difference between when I'm using it [the inhaler] and when I wasn't," he said.

Of equal importance, Chandler's mind is free from preoccupation.

"When you're constantly thinking about what's going on, it kind of weighs you down," he said. "You start concentrating on that instead of concentrating on getting better in the game."

----------------------------

Speaking of injuries on the KNICKS (since this is the Knicks thread, after all), has anyone heard anything lately on when Excuses Constantly is planning to suit up again after spraining his ankle?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/59932.htm 



CURRY'S LIKELY TO MISS SPURS 

By DAN MARTIN 

December 20, 2005 -- KNICK NOTES While Eddy Curry sounded cautiously optimistic that he could be ready to return from the sprained left ankle when the Knicks host the Spurs tomorrow, Larry Brown did not. 

"Eddy is very doubtful," Brown said of the center, who got hurt during practice last Thursday and didn't practice yesterday. "He might try to practice [today]." 

For his part, Curry said he was "day-to-day." 

"He doesn't know my body like I do," Curry said. "But it's entirely up to him." 

Curry was scheduled to be examined after practice yesterday and said that the pain was going away, as well as the swelling. "It's feeling a lot better," Curry said. "I'm ahead of schedule for how bad it was." 

Still, Curry was in agreement with Brown that it was a good idea not to rush back, despite having to play against the Tim Duncan-led Spurs tomorrow. 

"I want to come back just as bad as anyone, but I'm not going to be any good if I come back too soon," Curry said. "I want to get better." 

Brown thinks he already is. 

"I don't think it's a long-term thing," Brown said. "I'm more encouraged today than when he initially sprained it." 

Jerome James, according to Brown, is expected to play against San Antonio, even though he didn't practice yesterday, either (left ankle bursitis). 

* 

Nate Robinson, who was benched for the Indiana loss, said he was fine with Brown's decision not to play him. 

"It's a new day," Robinson said. "I'm not discouraged." 

Robinson's replacement, David Lee, was a bright spot against the Pacers. 

"I wanted to give David a chance," Brown said of the rookie who could suit up again tomorrow in Brown's never-ending active roster rotation. "He brought an unbelievable amount of energy. He gets better every day." 

* 

Jason Kidd, who appeared on "Live with Regis and Kelly" yesterday, took a shot at his cross-river rivals, saying that while the Nets were not doing well, "At least we're doing better than the Knicks."


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baske...48dec20,0,6113355.column?coll=ny-knicks-print 



You can change the channel if you choose. 

For the men paid to talk about lousy teams on regional sports networks, though, there is no means of escape, and no avoiding the obvious: Day after day of calling games for a team that stinks - stinks. 


Yes, it can get depressing for newspaper beat writers, too, but at least they do not face the complication of working for the company that owns the team. 

Which brings us, inevitably, to a Mr. Mike Breen of Manhasset. 

Breen, 44, is the voice of the Knicks, a job he dreamed about as a Fordham student that currently has turned into a nightmare of a 6-17 start. On top of that, he faces special scrutiny in how he deals with losses because of the stir last season surrounding his play-by-play predecessor, Marv Albert. 

Albert, now the Nets' voice, accused Cablevision CEO James Dolan of attempting to censor his criticism and said that led to his departure before last season. Dolan did say he thought Albert was overly negative, but financial demands also are believed to have been a key factor in his leaving. 

Either way, MSG-ologists carefully study what Breen says when the team goes bad. Listening during the past week to him and analyst Walt Frazier, SportsWatch didn't find much evidence of held tongues.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/376238p-319707c.html 


Remake of roster 1st step to respect 

Isiah Thomas 
This isn't the worst start by a Brown at Madison Square Garden, at least not yet. Hubie Brown's 1986-87 Knicks were 5-18 after 23 games, on their way to 5-22. Larry Brown's Knicks are 6-17 and looking at a game with the Spurs tomorrow night. After all the excitement of the summer, that is where we will be with the Knicks on the first night of winter. They are as bad as any team in basketball right now. The way they have played since they got back from their latest West Coast trip there is not a single game on the schedule you can call a sure win. 

As the Knicks have lost all these games in a row, Larry Brown has sometimes looked the way Bill Parcells, a football coach with whom he is often compared, a coach about the same age as he is, looked the other day watching the Redskins clobber the Cowboys. 

Brown has only been on the job, officially, for about two months. Isiah Thomas has been here two years now, almost two years to the day. There is still no evidence that he can put together a winning team. When he got to New York, a surprise hiring by James Dolan and Steve Mills out of the sky, we knew he had his work cut out for him. The Knicks were almost a whole team of overpaid stiff players with contracts that were supposed to be tougher to move than the New York Public Library. It was one of the reasons why the Garden at the time was just as quiet. 

The difference between now and then is that these are all Thomas' players now. His and Brown's, for better or worse, at a time when the whole lot of them is playing like the worst team in the league. It is why Thomas and Brown right now are more of a team to watch than the real team. 

Because the Knicks need fixing again.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Still no answer to the question.



I think Rosenthal answered your question about the Knicks' rebuilding core. I don't think too many GMs would be salivating -- especially when you add in the financial nightmare that the Knicks face.

Frye is going to be a stud, no doubt. But as much as the 2 C's continue to show flashes, does anyone really think any GM in the league wants to rely on either of them, or both, as the _cornerstone(s)_ of rebuilding a franchise? Neither is reliable enough or consistent enough to take on that responsibility.

Larry may still yet build up some cohesiveness in that franchise, but the overall jib level of the team so far means some big time individual nights from players, but an overall mess as far as team play is concerned. That kind of scattershot play will only get you so far -- as the team has already amply demonstrated. Add in the financial mess plus the loss of draft picks and unless Larry really can work some magic, that team is mired down in a big way for the forseeable future, as it appears right now.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*












:boohoo:


knicks, schmicks, the _entire_ nyc transit system went on strike today. 

no subways. no buses. 7 million+ riders. cars only allowed to cross at bridges and tunnels with four passengers or else they're turned back. you want to talk about a *meltdown!*

ok, back to the topic.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> :boohoo:
> 
> 
> knicks, schmicks, the _entire_ nyc transit system went on strike today.
> 
> no subways. no buses. 7 million+ riders. cars only allowed to cross at bridges and tunnels with four passengers or else they're turned back. you want to talk about a *meltdown!*
> 
> ok, back to the topic.


Maybe they should appoint Zeke and Larry transit commissioners, and see if they can sort things out.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> :boohoo:
> 
> 
> knicks, schmicks, the _entire_ nyc transit system went on strike today.
> 
> no subways. no buses. 7 million+ riders. cars only allowed to cross at bridges and tunnels with four passengers or else they're turned back. you want to talk about a *meltdown!*
> 
> ok, back to the topic.


My sympathy. Let's hope its short.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Maybe they should appoint Zeke and Larry transit commissioners, and see if they can sort things out.


LOL, well I'm sure they will get right on it once they are finished up curing cancer and ending world hunger.

So, how did miz get to work today?


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> So, how did miz get to work today?


Broomstick, as usual!



kidding! kidding! kidding!


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Broomstick, as usual!
> 
> 
> 
> kidding! kidding! kidding!



no, actually, that's _exactly how!_

spooky!

:laugh:


----------



## dkg1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> The only thing worse would be being a Tyson Chandler fan now-a-days.



Really? Sure Tyson's struggled so far but don't you think most people who are fans of Tyson's are also Bulls fans? I'm quite sure most people would take the Bulls record over the Knicks this year? There are some things I do not like about the Bulls (lack of size in paint and back court specifically) but I would much rather be a Tyson/Bulls fan than Knick fan. 

As for your question, I personally would rather have a 4-5 combo of EC and Frye over what the Bulls have. However, if signing Eddy to a ridiculous contract would have kept us from ultimately resigning the rest of our young cast, I guess it was necessary for him to go. Hopefully the Knicks picks we can get the next two years are high and we can get two more pieces to fill our needs. Plus there are health concerns that go along with Eddy (although Tyson's not exactly Cal Ripken Jr.).


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I didn't realise the Bulls/Knicks thing is actually about Curry vs Chandler. I suppose all that other stuff is negligible. :whoknows:


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> The only thing worse would be being a Tyson Chandler fan now-a-days.


This is not a Tyson v. Eddy thread, but since it appears this entire board is a Tyson v. Eddy thread, I'll make this response here.

Right now NBA.com lists Tyson's EFF as *11.17*
Right now NBA.com lists Eddy's EFF as *11.88*

I have no idea how EFF is calculated, but it's supposed to be an efficiency rating that takes all portions of a player's game into consideration. I'll also be the first to say that neither are very good. There's also not a huge difference between the two. I'll go out on a limb and say the majority of us are disappointed in Tyson's game so far this season. Health issues, lack of other interior players, etc, may all be valid reasons, but he is not giving us the same type of game he brought at the end of last year.

What I don't understand with two players so similar in how they benefit their ballclubs is how someone can be so vehemently against one guy and for the other. Particularly when the one against still plays on our club.

Doesn't make sense.

Here's hoping both players find some game to justify the vision Uncle Jerry had for the pair.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> This is not a Tyson v. Eddy thread, but since it appears this entire board is a Tyson v. Eddy thread, I'll make this response here.
> 
> Right now NBA.com lists Tyson's EFF as *11.17*
> Right now NBA.com lists Eddy's EFF as *11.88*
> 
> I have no idea how EFF is calculated, but it's supposed to be an efficiency rating that takes all portions of a player's game into consideration. I'll also be the first to say that neither are very good. There's also not a huge difference between the two. I'll go out on a limb and say the majority of us are disappointed in Tyson's game so far this season. Health issues, lack of other interior players, etc, may all be valid reasons, but he is not giving us the same type of game he brought at the end of last year.
> 
> *What I don't understand with two players so similar in how they benefit their ballclubs is how someone can be so vehemently against one guy and for the other. Particularly when the one against still plays on our club.
> 
> Doesn't make sense.*
> 
> Here's hoping both players find some game to justify the vision Uncle Jerry had for the pair.


"Torn between two lovers,
Feeling like a fool,
Loving both of you
Is breaking all the rules"


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Thank you Wynn!


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> Right now NBA.com lists Tyson's EFF as *11.17*
> Right now NBA.com lists Eddy's EFF as *11.88*


Yah, but Eddy's PER is 17.3 and Tyson's is a pathetic 10.1.

PER takes a lot more into account than EFF does. 

EFF is pretty simple.
((pts + reb + stls + asts + blk) - ((fga - fgm) + (fta - ftm) + to))/g

PER takes a lot more into account. I don't have the formula with me here, but it uses the superior “new” basketball stats and takes things like pace into account. 

Curry is effective when he's out there. Chander... not so much this season.

EDIT: PER Desc. http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Edited


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I noticed a funny thing about those PER though...

Eddy's is 17.9 and his opp PER is 13.8, that's a +4.1 which is pretty good. It's 3rd on the Knicks out of their top-8 in minutes, behind only Frye and Marbury.

Tyson's is 10.6 and his opp PER is 15.3, that's a -4.6 which isn't good, in fact it's worst among the Bulls' top-8 in minutes.

Yet Eddy's on-court vs off-court +/- is a -6.0, which is 3rd worst among the Knicks' top-8 (behind AD and Marbury).

Tyson's +/- is Zero, the Bulls are -1.0 whether he is on the floor or off the floor. But his +/- of Zero is 4th best behind Deng, Gordon and Songaila.

So even though Excuses Constantly has a very good PER vs the man he goes against, as you can see his team is much worse when he is on the floor (-8.4 versus -2.4 when Eddy isn't out there). And the Knicks are actually a +0.9 when Marbury isn't on the floor but -5.8 when he is.

So Constantly and Marbury do very little to effect the team in a positive way when you look at the actaul score of the game when these guys play, despite the fact that they are "better" (so says the PER) than their individual opponents each night. 

That seems a bit odd, doesn't it?



And while Tyson's PER shows that his man outproduces him by a lot, the team is actually much better off (or maybe "less bad off") with him being on the floor (-1.0) than the Mental Midgets are when Constantly (-8.4) or Marbury (-5.8) are on the floor.


http://www.82games.com/0506/0506NYKH.HTM

http://www.82games.com/0506/0506CHIH.HTM


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Brad Miller have higher PER's than Bill Russel.

Tracy McGrady has a higher PER than Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Hakeem Olajuwon.

Stephon Marbury has a higher PER than Jason Kidd.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Brad Miller have higer PER's than Bill Russel.
> 
> Tracy McGrady has a higer PER than Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Hakeem Olajuwon.
> 
> Stephon Marbury has a higher PER than Jason Kidd.


That's very interesting and also good to know. Most stats out there have some severe limitations.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> So even though Excuses Constantly has a very good PER vs the man he goes against, as you can see his team is much worse when he is on the floor (-8.4 versus -2.4 when Eddy isn't out there). And the Knicks are actually a +0.9 when Marbury isn't on the floor but -5.8 when he is.
> 
> So Constantly and Marbury do very little to effect the team in a positive way when you look at the actaul score of the game when these guys play, despite the fact that they are "better" (so says the PER) than their individual opponents each night.


What I find odd is that you've hammered away at this silly "Excuses Constantly" nickname for Eddy a full half dozen times since late last night.

Uh...we got it. LOL and everything. I guess.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Brad Miller have higer PER's than Bill Russel.
> 
> Tracy McGrady has a higer PER than Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Hakeem Olajuwon.
> 
> Stephon Marbury has a higher PER than Jason Kidd.


How many of these players have PERs below average (15)?

Chandler's is 10.


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> What I find odd is that you've hammered away at this silly "Excuses Constantly" nickname for Eddy a full half dozen times since late last night.
> 
> Uh...we got it. LOL and everything. I guess.


I thought Excuses Constantly referred to k4e's PER rating he keeps briging up to make Jamal and Eddy look good.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Electric Slim said:


> I thought Excuses Constantly referred to k4e's PER rating he keeps briging up to make Jamal and Eddy look good.


Well, that's just part of it- I came up with the nickname in the "Sweetney's Weight- An Issue or Not" because one of the other Defenders of Eddy's Honor starting complaining that people always ripped Eddy for not being in shape but nobody ever questions Sweetney's weight- ironically enough, *in a thread where someone was questioning Sweetney's weight*.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Per vs eff vs +/-. Ugh.

Thank goodness the Bulls don't need a center. 

We're much better off.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Per vs eff vs +/-. Ugh.
> 
> Thank goodness the Bulls don't need a center.
> 
> We're much better off.


We're much better off (or not better off)...then...what/when?


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Go, go, Portland go. 5:00 left and they have a 3 point lead on the Pistons. A victory would move them two steps in front of the Knick.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> We're much better off (or not better off)...then...what/when?


Then when we had a center.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Then when we had a center.


Well, obviously. But Cartwright retired in 1995.


----------



## Kneepad

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Tom will be here all week, ladies and gentlemen... please tip your waitresses generously.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Knicks/Spurs tonight. Manu Ginobili will not play, I think, but the Spurs have got to be pissed about the last two games. It'll be interesting.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Knicks down by 21 after the 1st half. Still no signs of defense. Lottery pick looks better & better.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

If by "no signs of defense", you mean the Spurs would shoot 65% in the first half, then yes, you are correct.


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Not fair. Everyone knows the knicks have great POTENTIAL and are still going to the playoffs. TO much talent. Hey they have a lot of players who look really good. Play with a lot of style.

EC and JC have great potential. Who would want them, well in fact only IT wanted them.

As i have said the knicks do have great potential, that is potential to give the bulls a top five pick in next years draft.

david


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



giusd said:


> Not fair. Everyone knows the knicks have great POTENTIAL and are still going to the playoffs. TO much talent. Hey they have a lot of players who look really good. Play with a lot of style.
> 
> EC and JC have great potential. Who would want them, well in fact only IT wanted them.
> 
> As i have said the knicks do have great potential, that is potential to give the bulls a top five pick in next years draft.
> 
> david



Well one Knick ex-Bull I'd like to have back is Antonio Davis. It's no mistake that he's playing quality minutes for the Knicks. He's always in the right place, and plays steady defense. A good influence on young Bigs.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

OT:

OK, this is my first year with League Pass (since this is the first year I'm not able to get all the Bulls games).

So far, it seems Bulls feeds on LP are few and far between.

On the other hand EVERY Knicks game seems to be the MSG feed (you think Red is confused? Clyde Frazier's every comment is like an outtake from Barbershop IV)

EVERY Celtics game seems to be the Boston Feed (**** you and your "Tommy Points" you cretin)



What is UP with that?

:curse:


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

It does always seem like boston and NY are the mail feeds. but on the up side tommy hindson seems to be a big skiles and bulls fan. And Clyde Frazier is IMHO one of the best color men doing any of the nba games and i really enjoy watching him.

david


----------



## BullSoxChicagosFinest

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Whenever your frustrated with your own team, watch the Knicks and feel better

End of the 3rd quarter against San Antonio, Knicks getting booed out of the building


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> OT:
> 
> OK, this is my first year with League Pass (since this is the first year I'm not able to get all the Bulls games).
> 
> So far, it seems Bulls feeds on LP are few and far between.
> 
> On the other hand EVERY Knicks game seems to be the MSG feed (you think Red is confused? Clyde Frazier's every comment is like an outtake from Barbershop IV)
> 
> EVERY Celtics game seems to be the Boston Feed (**** you and your "Tommy Points" you cretin)
> 
> 
> 
> What is UP with that?
> 
> :curse:



i love clyde. clyde rocks. swishin' and dishin'. tonight the knicks have kenny smith on the play by play with mike breen. he's been pretty good. 

but yeah, LP has had a disproportionate amount of opposing team feeds this year. i was surprised they actually used the chicago guys on scottie night. wouldn't have been surprised at all had it been the lakers.

and tommy heinous is just a joke. 

knicks are getting _killed_ by the spurs tonight. 89-58 end of 3.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> knicks are getting _killed_ by the spurs tonight. 89-58 end of 3.


Who cares what the score is!

Jamal currently leads his team in scoring and is shooting 50% from the field. Plus he's gone to the free throw line 10 times which proves that he's finally driving to the hole. Assist per turnover of 2 to 1. Not to mention that his counterparts of Finley/Barry are a combined 13-19 for 31 points...oh wait...

:angel:


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Man, I miss my League Pass... 

What could be better than watching the Knicks try to top their own "record" for opp FG% this season- they allowed ATL the current high at ~62%, and the Spurs are at 63% through 3 quarters.

And I like Clyde, too. Although Heinsohn is just terrible, at least he's annoying as hell while being terrible.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



BullSoxChicagosFinest said:


> Whenever your frustrated with your own team, watch the Knicks and feel better


Yes, I find it to be very theraputic.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Man, I miss my League Pass...


Man, I wish I could miss league Pass - must write another letter to Charter.

Not much to do with the Knicks thread here - but when the Bulls/Bucks play twice in the first week of January, hope for the Bucks feed. Johnny Mac is decent, and while a homer, not so much a homer that he can't point out good play or bad play on other side.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2005122118


NEW YORK (AP) -- Michael Finley scored 19 points and the San Antonio Spurs shot 56 percent Wednesday night in their 109-96 victory over the New York Knicks, who have lost seven straight games. 

Tony Parker added 18 points and 10 assists as the Spurs' starting guards combined to make 15 of 22 shots against the Knicks' dismal perimeter defense. Finley was 8-of-12 in another start in place of Manu Ginobili, and Parker was 7-for-10. 

San Antonio was shooting 63 percent after three quarters and was easily on its way to bettering its season high of 56.3 percent against Boston on Nov. 11 before its reserves were only 8-of-21 in the final 12 minutes. 

Tim Duncan played only 22 minutes and scored 13 points for the Spurs, who rebounded from consecutive losses and salvaged the final game of their three-game trip. They return home Friday to host Toronto before traveling to Detroit for their NBA Finals rematch with the Pistons on Christmas. 

Larry Brown's old team will certainly provide more of a test than his current one. 

The Knicks trailed by as many as 32 points, and the only reason they avoided their worst loss of the season was because the Spurs' starters were on the bench in the fourth quarter. New York trailed by 31 points after the third. 

The only fight the Knicks put up came from Antonio Davis, who fouled Parker with 8:18 left in the third quarter. The Spurs thought the foul was too hard, and as players from both teams huddled to talk about it, Davis gave Duncan a little shove as he was walking away. 

-------------

With Toronto shocking the Rockets in Houston, the Raptors now are even with the Mental Midgets in the win column with 6, and the Midgets are only ONE GAME above Toronto for the absolute worst record in the NBA.

How can a team with all that talent and one of the greatest coaches of all time be 6-18?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

In exchange for Marbury, Crawford, Richardson, Curry and Hardaway, Isiah traded away:

Mutombo
Harrington
K Thomas
McDyess
Sweetney
Eisley
#2 pick next summer (currently)

Is there anyone who doubts that Larry Brown would choose the players Zeke traded away over the ones who are currently on his roster?


----------



## johnston797

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> In exchange for Marbury, Crawford, Richardson, Curry and Hardaway, Isiah traded away:
> 
> Mutombo
> Harrington
> K Thomas
> McDyess
> Sweetney
> Eisley
> #2 pick next summer (currently)
> 
> Is there anyone who doubts that Larry Brown would choose the players Zeke traded away over the ones who are currently on his roster?


I don't know. They would probably be even worse with guys they got rid of. 

No guards left on the roster and it's not like the power players are much of an upgrade.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The irresistible force meets the immovable object: Larry Brown's coaching vs. the suckage of Crawford and Curry. It's the Ultimate Challenge!


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The really sad thing is this rotten Knicks team was good enough to beat the Bulls.

Curry didnt' play again.

AD with 4 fouls in 11 minutes.


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> The really sad thing is this rotten Knicks team was good enough to beat the Bulls.




You're amazing. You're truly amazing. If I ever run for government, or the NBA draft, I'm hiring you.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The amazing thing is to see people flopping all over each other with each Knicks loss. While the Bulls game threads are having a hard time hitting 5 pages and the UC is deathly quiet. I'm sure there will be people cheering for LeBron tomorrow though. The Bulls are charging the premium prices for that game I bet.

Meanwhile, the Bulls are a whisper away from under .500 and we're talking about the season being a wash and lotto balls once again to save us.

And really, only two major players from our very good team last year have been replaced.

Yet people still take joy in the failure of the Knicks.

The Bulls meanwhile, are clearly, to this point, compared to the team that was kicking butt last year for the last 3 / 4 of the season, worse off.

Its a shame for all the players that played well for our team last year. And of course for the Bulls fans that invest their time and money expecting a team that will do whatever it takes to win a NBA title. 

Let’s hope the Bulls can turn it around. We still have jib. Lots and lots and lots of jib. This is "jib central" after all.

Last year we overcame youth and inexperience.

Perhaps this season we can overcome the laws of matter.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

and yet, being .500 we would be in second place in any division but ours! And if the playoffs started today we would be in it. 

Yes, the knicks beat us, once.


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Yet people still take joy in the failure of the Knicks.



Too right. Their loss, our gain. We are rooting for the Bulls, after all.





> Let’s hope the Bulls can turn it around. We still have jib. Lots and lots and lots of jib. This is "jib central" after all.
> 
> Last year we overcame youth and inexperience.
> 
> Perhaps this season we can overcome the laws of matter.





Watching this year's Knicks, as I know you are, is a lesson in the value of jib.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ShamBulls said:


> Too right. Their loss, our gain.


Certainly not our short term gain.

Perhaps long term. 

Its sad we've had to abandon the short term once again.





> Watching this year's Knicks, as I know you are, is a lesson in the value of jib.


Yet the Knicks added one of out best jib guys in AD and our team is currently worse off without Curry and AD.

Like I said before, I just want our old team back. I was happy with last year's bunch. They won me over. That team was better than our current team. It seems like many Bulls fans on the board are so happy that Curry is gone that the wins and losses place 2nd.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> That team was better than our current team. It seems like many Bulls fans on the board are so happy that Curry is gone that the wins and losses place 2nd.


Yeah, last year's team was really fun. I miss them too. And I miss Eddy. But now that he's gone, I want the #1 pick in return for the loss of his services. 

This year's team has a lot of the same players, but some of them aren't up to their old standards. Ben Gordon looks like he's lost the confidense to be an offensive star right now, and Skiles does not seem to be helping him to thrive. Chandler has regressed. We can only hope his new inhaler will help him to be the disrupter we know he can be. Deng and Hinrich are playing about as well as they did last year. Noc is a better shooter this year, but he's not going to win you games by himself. Du is clearly an improved player. 

Don't count out the possibility that we will get better as the season progresses. Of course, we could always head down the tank as well. But in light of our mediocrity, the plight of the New York Knicks is VERY GOOD NEWS for Bulls fans. I can't see it any other way.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> Don't count out the possibility that we will get better as the season progresses. Of course, we could always head down the tank as well. But in light of our mediocrity, the plight of the New York Knicks is VERY GOOD NEWS for Bulls fans. I can't see it any other way.


I'm not counting anything out after last season's run. That was a jaw-dropping turnaround. 

The Knicks being lousy does help our team, which is a good thing.

I just wish our team was not in such desperate need of help.

But, we’re back to rebuilding mode and lottery mode. Believe me, I'm used to that.

I wonder how many more years it will be until we have the 3rd best regular season record in the East again at the end of the year?


----------



## bbertha37

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> The Knicks being lousy does help our team, which is a good thing.


So then why must you ridicule us for finding solace in the Knicks' dismal failure so far this season?



kukoc4ever said:


> I just wish our team was not in such desperate need of help.


Any playoff team would absolutely relish in the possibility of acquiring a top 3 draft pick. I'm sorry, but that's not necessarily a sign of desperation.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bbertha37 said:


> Any playoff team would absolutely relish in the possibility of acquiring a top 3 draft pick. I'm sorry, but that's not necessarily a sign of desperation.


Being the 8th team versus the 9th team is hardly any type of victory. You are still painfully average.

We were not that way last year in the regular season. What changed?


I guess if the Bulls are going to take a step back from last season and any type of playoff run is out of the picture then rooting for the Knicks to lose is our best thing to root for. Man, times have changed. Back to the old mentality.


----------



## bbertha37

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I guess if the Bulls are going to take a step back from last season and any type of playoff run is out of the picture then rooting for the Knicks to lose is our best thing to root for. Man, times have changed. Back to the old mentality.


Whoa whoa whoa. Now hold on a second. Who said anything about giving up on the playoffs this season? Nobody around here's mailing it in, and the team itself isn't at all pleased with the way they're currently playing. I really don't see that the team has reverted back to the lottery mentality. I don't see it at all. We're certainly not playing up to par, but there's certainly still a significant difference between the way we played just two seasons ago and right now. Furthermore, it's really insulting that you think that the topic of this thread is the only or best thing we have to root for. Maybe you should check out the page full of topics besides this one that are being discussed right now.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Being the 8th team versus the 9th team is hardly any type of victory. You are still painfully average.
> 
> We were not that way last year in the regular season. What changed?
> 
> 
> I guess if the Bulls are going to take a step back from last season and any type of playoff run is out of the picture then rooting for the Knicks to lose is our best thing to root for. Man, times have changed. Back to the old mentality.


I'm really not sure what you're expecting from us K4E, considering the way the East retooled in the offseason. It's nice to have a team of role players overacheiving like we did last year, but that doesn't cut it when other teams with stars like James and even borderline stars like Redd add players like Hughes, Marshall, Bogut, Simmons, Magloire, and ostensibly TJ Ford. Next year, or this year before the deadline, IMO we need an influx of talent in order to keep up with the Joneses. Jib is clearly not going to cut it forever. 

Honestly, I agree with what Pax said on the radio the other day. We need a star player, and if Deng becomes that star, then so be it, though I don't see it. Deng could become a Marion level player, but that's still not a team carrying star IMO. We need a real put-the-team-on-the-shoulders capable star, and if Paxson is not able to get us one over the course of his tenure, then that will be his largeset failure as a GM in my opinion.


----------



## bbertha37

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Being the 8th team versus the 9th team is hardly any type of victory. You are still painfully average.
> 
> We were not that way last year in the regular season. What changed?


Well, I think the climate of the East has certainly changed. Moreover, we just did not have many avenues open to us this summer to improve our team. We didn't have cap space, and we didn't have the full MLE to utilize due to re-signing Duhon. It was clear even before Eddy had his episode in March that any improvement for the 05-06 season would have to come internally. However, none of our players have drastically improved between the end of last season and now. That could very well change throughout the course of the rest of the season though. But right now, it's quite clear that our frontcourt is depleted at the moment. I think Pax was prepared to part with Curry given the unusual circumstances. Losing AD hurt as well. Unfortunately, I think he was well aware that we wouldn't have the means to address our issue in the frontcourt right away without making some other hasty trade. It's certainly distressing right now, but I don't think it's something that will remain unsettled indefinitely. For now though, I think it's just something we're going to have to battle through. It's certainly not favorable or encouraging, but I don't see it as the tremendous regression you have painted it to be. We will have the means to address this scenario soon enough. For now though, we must make the best of what we have.


----------



## bbertha37

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> I'm really not sure what you're expecting from us K4E, considering the way the East retooled in the offseason. It's nice to have a team of role players overacheiving like we did last year, but that doesn't cut it when other teams with stars like James and even borderline stars like Redd add players like Hughes, Marshall, Bogut, Simmons, Magloire, and ostensibly TJ Ford. Next year, or this year before the deadline, IMO we need an influx of talent in order to keep up with the Joneses. Jib is clearly not going to cut it forever.
> 
> Honestly, I agree with what Pax said on the radio the other day. We need a star player, and if Deng becomes that star, then so be it, though I don't see it. Deng could become a Marion level player, but that's still not a team carrying star IMO. We need a real put-the-team-on-the-shoulders capable star, and if Paxson is not able to get us one over the course of his tenure, then that will be his largeset failure as a GM in my opinion.


I agree that we need that caliber of a player. But at what cost? Would it really be worth it to completely gut our roster for such a player? Would we then become a team composed of a star and a depleted supporting cast? That's the problem I see. Optimally, we would simply add such a talent through the draft or FA.


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> I agree that we need that caliber of a player. But at what cost? Would it really be worth it to completely gut our roster for such a player? Would we then become a team composed of a star and a depleted supporting cast? That's the problem I see. Optimally, we would simply add such a talent through the draft or FA.


We all agree that we need a player of that calibre but it seems alot of us, including me are too impatient to sit there and wait for one to become available.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> The amazing thing is to see people flopping all over each other with each Knicks loss.


It's not amazing, it's 100% perfectly normal. Anyone with an ounce of common sense is hoping the Knicks go 6-76 because the Bulls will be getting their pick. 

You see, we are *Bulls fans*, and it doesn't bother us that Excuses Constantly and Jack Chucker are on the 2nd worst team in the league, because they aren't Bulls. The amazing thing is that, as a Bulls fan, you *aren't* happy to see the Knicks lose, because their losses are good for the Bulls.



> While the Bulls game threads are having a hard time hitting 5 pages and the *UC is deathly quiet*. I'm sure there will be people cheering for LeBron tomorrow though. The Bulls are charging the premium prices for that game I bet.


Sounds to me like that's on the season-ticket holders, does anyone know of any season-ticket holders on this board?

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if their are season-ticket holders who are cheering for Excuses and Jack when the Knicks come to town.



> Meanwhile, the Bulls are a whisper away from under .500 and we're talking about the season being a wash and lotto balls once again to save us.


Huh? Who is WE? Unless you have a mouse in your pocket, the ONLY person I have seen talk about the season being a wash is YOU. Now you may say it enough that it seems like others are in on the conversation, but so far, it's just you.



> And really, only two major players from our very good team last year have been replaced.


Yup. And this team has a BETTER RECORD through 24 games than last year's team had. That team got much better as the season went on, [SARCASM] of course this year's team will not improve during the season as they adjust to losing two starters, I guess??? [/SARCASM]



> Yet people still take joy in the failure of the Knicks.


Yes, we do. Because we are *Bulls fans* and their failure is our gain. It's quite simple, and absolutely everyone on this board except for you have it figured out. 



> The Bulls meanwhile, are clearly, to this point, compared to the team that was kicking butt last year for the last 3 / 4 of the season, worse off.
> 
> Its a shame for all the players that played well for our team last year. And of course for the Bulls fans that invest their time and money expecting a team that will do whatever it takes to win a NBA title.
> 
> Let’s hope the Bulls can turn it around. We still have jib. Lots and lots and lots of jib. This is "jib central" after all.
> 
> Last year we overcame youth and inexperience.
> 
> Perhaps this season we can overcome the laws of matter.


Yawn. The same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.


One small clue, this is titled the "KNICKS MELTDOWN" thread, if you don't want to read about how bad the Knicks are doing you should probably avoid this thread.

If you want to make the same tired complaints about the Bulls, you might want to try the "Season Is A Wash" thread that was recently bumped. Although you will be highly disappointed to find out that not one single poster has declared THIS season to be a wash.

If you want to complain about Tyson's slow start, there is the "Bulls Need To Dump Chandler" thread.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> The Bulls meanwhile, are clearly, to this point, compared to the team that was kicking butt last year for the last 3 / 4 of the season, worse off.
> 
> Its a shame for all the players that played well for our team last year. And of course for the Bulls fans that invest their time and money expecting a team that will do whatever it takes to win a NBA title.
> 
> Let’s hope the Bulls can turn it around. We still have jib. Lots and lots and lots of jib. This is "jib central" after all.
> 
> Last year we overcame youth and inexperience.
> 
> Perhaps this season we can overcome the laws of matter.







kukoc4ever said:


> We were not that way last year in the regular season. What changed?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but at this time last year weren't we 9-15?


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Being the 8th team versus the 9th team is hardly any type of victory. You are still painfully average.


A couple of things, K4E. First, for a young team I think the 8th vs. 9th team is of enormous importance. The more playoff exposure a young, developing team can acquire, the better. I think making the playoffs for young teams such as Chicago is very important. Even if it leads to a quick 4 or 5 game exit at the hand of the Pistons.

This is especially true when that young team has another team's lottery pick to look to. 

Now, I'll grant you that a team like, say, this year's Sacramento Kings, that is older and not really a "developing team" may actually be better served to miss the playoffs and get more lottery balls. I could understand why a fan of that team might say "ho-hum" to an 8th seed playoff birth. But that isn't the situation the Bulls are in. 

For this exceptionally young team, playoffs must be the goal. Even if its the 8th seed. Come next season, I'd rather see Luol Deng with 4-5 playoff games under his belt than with 0. I'd rather see Ben Gordon get a chance to redeem himself from last year's stumble against Washington in Game 6, than not get that chance.

Also, the Bulls are .500 right now. If they go 5 games over .500 over the course of the next 58 games - hardly a miraculous accomplishment - they will have as good a record as they had last season notwithstanding a widely acknowledged "step back" accompanied by conference wide improvement. 

Your recent posts take the tone that the season is basically decided at this point when truly almost 75% remains to be played. I've found some points for frustration and concern myself this season, but I don't understand your resignation.

As far as rooting for lottery balls and a lottery pick, I don't understand why you take issue with that given that it is *another team's pick* that is at issue. I haven't seen one Bulls fan in here conceding that the Bulls aren't going to make the playoffs, or worse, rooting for them not to make it in a desperate appeal for more lottery balls (which happened often in year's past). 

It's not the "same old mentality". What we have now are *concurrent* playoff hopes and hopes for a high lottery pick. The beauty of it now is that the two are no longer mutually exclusive. Not this season or next, perhaps, given the pick swap.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Like I said before, I just want our old team back. I was happy with last year's bunch. They won me over. That team was better than our current team. It seems like many Bulls fans on the board are so happy that *Curry is gone* that the wins and losses place 2nd.


There you go, that's what we've all been waiting for. :banana: 

You miss your little Excuses Constantly, that's what it all boils down to, as usual. 


A statistical fact: 

The Mental Midgets are 4-12 (.250) this season when Excuses plays. 
The Mental Midgets are 2-6 (.250) this season when Excuses doesn't play.


And now, back to our regulary scheduled enjoyment of watching the Mental Midgets meltdown.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Yawn. The same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:










meet


----------



## dsouljah9

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Let’s hope the Bulls can turn it around. We still have jib. Lots and lots and lots of jib. This is "jib central" after all.


To the power of the jib :cheers: 

:biggrin:


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Isiah Picks Up Pursuit Of Raptors' Rose

22nd December, 2005 - 4:42 am

New York Daily News - The Knicks' on-again, off-again pursuit of Jalen Rose may be on again. Brendan Suhr, Isiah Thomas' top lieutenant, scouted the Raptors Monday when they were in Orlando. A day earlier, Knicks scout Walker D. Russell watched the Raptors play the Sixers in Toronto. 

Rose has been on the Knicks' radar for two years, but it's unlikely that Toronto would trade the veteran because his contract expires this summer. Another possibility is point guard Mike James, who was a backup for Larry Brown when the Pistons won the title in 2004. Brown has talked about acquiring a point guard in order to move Stephon Marbury to shooting guard. 

----------------

Wow, it looks like someone's dreams of a reunited Excuses Constantly, Jack Chucker and Jaded Retread might be coming to fruition...

Although someone should tell the NY Daily News that Retread's contract expires in 2007, not this summer.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> A couple of things, K4E. First, for a young team I think the 8th vs. 9th team is of enormous importance. The more playoff exposure a young, developing team can acquire, the better. I think making the playoffs for young teams such as Chicago is very important. Even if it leads to a quick 4 or 5 game exit at the hand of the Pistons.
> 
> This is especially true when that young team has another team's lottery pick to look to.
> 
> Now, I'll grant you that a team like, say, this year's Sacramento Kings, that is older and not really a "developing team" may actually be better served to miss the playoffs and get more lottery balls. I could understand why a fan of that team might say "ho-hum" to an 8th seed playoff birth. But that isn't the situation the Bulls are in.
> 
> For this exceptionally young team, playoffs must be the goal. Even if its the 8th seed. Come next season, I'd rather see Luol Deng with 4-5 playoff games under his belt than with 0. I'd rather see Ben Gordon get a chance to redeem himself from last year's stumble against Washington in Game 6, than not get that chance.
> 
> Also, the Bulls are .500 right now. If they go 5 games over .500 over the course of the next 58 games - hardly a miraculous accomplishment - they will have as good a record as they had last season notwithstanding a widely acknowledged "step back" accompanied by conference wide improvement.
> 
> Your recent posts take the tone that the season is basically decided at this point when truly almost 75% remains to be played. I've found some points for frustration and concern myself this season, but I don't understand your resignation.
> 
> As far as rooting for lottery balls and a lottery pick, I don't understand why you take issue with that given that it is *another team's pick* that is at issue. I haven't seen one Bulls fan in here conceding that the Bulls aren't going to make the playoffs, or worse, rooting for them not to make it in a desperate appeal for more lottery balls (which happened often in year's past).
> 
> It's not the "same old mentality". What we have now are *concurrent* playoff hopes and hopes for a high lottery pick. The beauty of it now is that the two are no longer mutually exclusive. Not this season or next, perhaps, given the pick swap.












Nice post, Ron! Well said.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

NY Times:

"The Knicks have had talks with the Toronto Raptors about acquiring Jalen Rose in a trade for Penny Hardaway, according to an Eastern Conference official who was granted anonymity because he was not authorized to speak about either team. Both players make $15.7 million this season, but Hardaway's contract expires next summer. Rose has one more season left at $16.9 million, and the Raptors are trying to reduce payroll. The Knicks are believed to be seeking draft picks as further compensation for taking on Rose's contract, which could be a sticking point. But the official said that the teams did not appear to be close to a deal. "


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

From the NY Post:

DEAR SANTA: 

I know it has been a while since we last talked. I apologize for being so offended at not getting the 8-track tape player I requested in my last letter. Yes, I know that was 30 years ago, but sometimes disappointment is hard to overcome. Which brings me to the reason for this letter: the Knicks. 

Since this is the season for giving, I thought you might find some compassion in your heart to drop off a few items at Madison Square Garden that could change what has been a disappointing start for Larry Brown, Isiah Thomas and the boys. 

Yes, I know these things take time, Santa, but New Yorkers and we media types aren't exactly the most patient people. A worse-than-the-score 109-96 loss to the Spurs last night extended the Knick losing streak to a miserable seven games with no reason to believe things will get better any time soon. 

The Spurs were up 56-35 at halftime and 89-58 after three quarters. Most of the sellout crowd started leaving by then. 

So, Santa, here's my wish list for the Knicks: 

1.) An emphasis on defense. You figured at the very least the Knicks would be a better defensive team under Brown. Spike Lee demanded as much during those early-season commercials. Before last night's wipeout, the Knicks had allowed an average of 103 points over their previous 13 games. A healthy dose of heart, desire, and even anger would be greatly appreciated. 
"We're not playing defense together," Stephon Marbury said. 

2.) A healthier Eddy Curry. You know what it's like to carry around a lot of weight, Santa, but Curry gets paid big money to play. Out-of-shape when the season began, he missed his third straight game and eighth of the season last night. His backup Jerome James (one point) was no help, leaving the Knicks without a productive post presence. 

3.) Veteran leadership. Aside from Malik Rose, the Knicks don't have a vocal leader. Marbury (age twenty-eight) inspires no one, while Antonio Davis (37), Anfernee Hardaway (34) and Maurice Taylor (29) aren't secure in their own roles to offer constructive criticism. Who's the heart and soul of this team? Nobody. Anything in a Charles Oakley or Larry Johnson model would be appreciated. 
4.) Ron Artest. I know he's a pain in the rear. But he would bring the kind of instant swagger the Knicks need, not to mention his unique combination of great scoring and great defense. If Brown can deal with Allen Iverson, he can deal with Artest. I know the Knicks don't have the goods to make the trade work considering Isiah won't and shouldn't give up Channing Frye. But maybe you can sprinkle some magic dust on Pacer president Donnie Walsh and make it happen. 

5.) An attitude adjustment for Marbury. Getting booed isn't easy. But if I were getting paid $16.4 million, I'd have a smile on my face and act like I'm at least enjoying playing for my hometown team regardless of the record. 

"It's not his fault," Brown said. "He's trying hard for me." 

6.) Wisdom for Isiah. The draft was excellent, acquiring Curry was a risk worth taking and landing Brown was a no-brainer. But the two-guard position remains a soft spot and more muscle is needed off the bench. It's no time for Isiah to get gun-shy despite all the darts being thrown his way. 

7.) Confidence. The Knicks looked deflated in losing their fifth straight at home. No passion. No energy. No fluidity. The Knicks don't know who they are, much less what they can be. 

I could go on and on, but that's all for now, Santa. 

See you in 30 years. 

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/60058.htm


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I'm not counting anything out after last season's run. That was a jaw-dropping turnaround.
> 
> The Knicks being lousy does help our team, which is a good thing.
> 
> I just wish our team was not in such desperate need of help.
> 
> But, we’re back to rebuilding mode and lottery mode. Believe me, I'm used to that.
> 
> I wonder how many more years it will be until we have the 3rd best regular season record in the East again at the end of the year?





> I just wish our team was not in such desperate need of help.


desperate? I wouldn't use that word. We could use the help. NY is in desperate need. 



> But, we’re back to rebuilding mode and lottery mode. Believe me, I'm used to that.


How's that? Did we miss the playoffs already? If NY wants to give us picks why not take them? Boston Celtics of larry bird era had len bias as a lottery pick yet they were in the playoffs. they got it via a trade. I would not call the celtics rebuilding. Detroit made the playoffs recently and had a top pick. They were not rebuilding.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but at this time last year weren't we 9-15?


Yes we were. We were 4-15 before that. Far from mediocre. We had just won our fifth game in a row. 

We are mediocre, yes, but last years team improved, why can't this one?


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

NY will not get Rose AND picks. 

Knicks want a healthy Curry. If he was with us, our record would be similar and we would have two giants not healthy. Chandler and Curry and have no Sweetney! Actually it could be worse.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truebluefan said:


> desperate? I wouldn't use that word. We could use the help. NY is in desperate need.
> 
> How's that? Did we miss the playoffs already? If NY wants to give us picks why not take them? Boston Celtics of larry bird era had len bias as a lottery pick yet they were in the playoffs. they got it via a trade. I would not call the celtics rebuilding. Detroit made the playoffs recently and had a top pick. They were not rebuilding.


Great point.

The 1978-79 Lakers won (ironically) 47 games after winning 45 and 53 the previous 2 seasons, and they were able to add Magic Johnson with the #1 pick in the draft because they had made a trade.

I cannot even imagine how being a playoff team AND having a top-5 pick can be a bad thing?


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Great point.
> 
> The 1978-79 Lakers won (ironically) 47 games after winning 45 and 53 the previous 2 seasons, and they were able to add Magic Johnson with the #1 pick in the draft because they had made a trade.
> 
> I cannot even imagine how being a playoff team AND having a top-5 pick can be a bad thing?


It's not a bad thing.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Nice post, Ron! Well said.


Then give me some damn rep, you stingy *******.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

done


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> done


Its weird, because its been my theory that being a jerk in life with those I know would tend to get me less of what I want, not more. Due to your actions today, I am going to change my outlook. From this day forth, I will be a demanding egomaniac with family and friends when it comes to seeking their assitance and counsel. 

If this doesn't work out and my life changes for the worse, I'm going to blame you.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> From this day forth, I will be a demanding egomaniac with family and friends when it comes to seeking their assitance and counsel.



Its worked for me.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Its worked for me.


Sweet. I'm just going to pattern my life around what I can learn about you from your posts about basketball on this internet message board. Its a fool-proof plan.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Oh...was I supposed to be posting about basketball all this time?

My bad.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bbertha37 said:


> Whoa whoa whoa. Now hold on a second. Who said anything about giving up on the playoffs this season? Nobody around here's mailing it in, and the team itself isn't at all pleased with the way they're currently playing. I really don't see that the team has reverted back to the lottery mentality. I don't see it at all. We're certainly not playing up to par, but there's certainly still a significant difference between the way we played just two seasons ago and right now. Furthermore, it's really insulting that you think that the topic of this thread is the only or best thing we have to root for. Maybe you should check out the page full of topics besides this one that are being discussed right now.


Note that I said a "playoff run." Not a playoff appearance.

My point is that if we're the 8th or 7th seed, we're likely to be throttled in the 1st round. Not much of a run.

Last season, if healthy, I honestly felt we could have defeated the Wizards and perhaps did some damage at least against our 2nd round opponent. 

This season, we're likely not going to finish as high in the standings and get smoked by a vastly superior team.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bbertha37 said:


> So then why must you ridicule us for finding solace in the Knicks' dismal failure so far this season?


I not trying to ridicule anyone. Its just a misdirection, pumping the fist in the air about the Knicks while the team we follow is worse off than last season.




> Any playoff team would absolutely relish in the possibility of acquiring a top 3 draft pick. I'm sorry, but that's not necessarily a sign of desperation.


We're desperate for a draft pick to come through for us or to pull off some kind of Houdini act via FA or trade to land some top talent. Unless you think that the talent is in place right now to someday make a run.

We lack productive bigs. Easily the toughest thing to acquire in the NBA. We're desperate for them. Either young or established.

I don't think a draft pick is a bad thing. I do think trading a productive young center for a draft pick is a bad thing, especially when the team is worse off in the short term and its far from certain that we'll be better off long term.

It looks like the Curry situation is Paxson’s Twin Towers experiment. A chance to reset the expectations and keep the job for a few more years.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> I'm really not sure what you're expecting from us K4E, considering the way the East retooled in the offseason. It's nice to have a team of role players overacheiving like we did last year, but that doesn't cut it when other teams with stars like James and even borderline stars like Redd add players like Hughes, Marshall, Bogut, Simmons, Magloire, and ostensibly TJ Ford. Next year, or this year before the deadline, IMO we need an influx of talent in order to keep up with the Joneses. Jib is clearly not going to cut it forever.


Last season we could beat the Pistons at the Palace. This year we get smoked by virtually an identical team. Last year the last 2/3 of the season we could hang with virtually any team in the NBA. This year, at least currently, that's not the case.

Its not just the east retooling. The Pistons are pretty much the same team... that's a pretty good benchmark IMO.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Huh? Who is WE? Unless you have a mouse in your pocket, the ONLY person I have seen talk about the season being a wash is YOU. Now you may say it enough that it seems like others are in on the conversation, but so far, it's just you.


Can you post the link to my post in the "season is a wash" thread for this season?


The Bulls had a nice thing going at the end of last season. The city was excited again. People were talking about them. That momentum appears to be lost. 




> Yes, we do. Because we are *Bulls fans* and their failure is our gain. It's quite simple, and absolutely everyone on this board except for you have it figured out.


You're funny. The same guy that was writing songs of hatred about current Bulls last season is the one hammering away on the Bulls fan thing. Comical.

Writing songs of hatred about Bulls one year. Playing the "bulls fan" card the next.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

In the end, if you are happy about having to rely on draft picks developing in the future and some kind of low-probability acquisition to go down in the future to reach the level we were at last season, then we'll just have to disagree.

It honestly feels like many people are not upset at the regression. I guess you are in the mood for more rebuilding, more developing draft picks....... more of the same.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I not trying to ridicule anyone. Its just a misdirection, pumping the fist in the air about the Knicks while the team we follow is worse off than last season.


Nope. Completely 100% inaccurate.

Even if the Bulls currently had the same winning percentage as last year's team (47-35 = .573, 24 games x .573 = 13.752 wins) and were 14-10 instead of 12-12, everyone who "pumping the fist in the air" about the Knicks would still be "pumping the fist in the air".

Hell, if the Bulls were 16-8 and behind only Detroit as the #2 team in the East, we would still be "pumping the fist in the air" over having the #2 pick in the draft next summer.

And most of us would be happy as hell that the Knicks are 6-18 even if we didn't have their pick next summer, because the Knicks are a hated rival, Isiah is a hated rival, and a lot of people don't like the Nomad, either.

So say "everyone is enjoying the Knicks failures so that they don't have to concentrate on our horri-Bulls" all you want, *IT SIMPLY AIN'T TRUE.*




> I don't think a draft pick is a bad thing. I do think trading a productive young center for a draft pick is a bad thing, especially when the team is worse off in the short term and its far from certain that we'll be better off long term.
> 
> It looks like the Curry situation is Paxson’s Twin Towers experiment. A chance to reset the expectations and keep the job for a few more years.


And once again, it all boils down to "my boo Excuses is in NY, ", same as always.

It's comical, you say "look at the Bulls NOW, not the future"... but you don't care to look at the FACT that Excuses Constantly has only played in 2/3 of the Knicks games this season and he has only managed to stay on the floor for 1/2 the game when he does play.

I guess "look at THIS season" only goes for the Bulls?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Nope. Completely 100% inaccurate.
> 
> Even if the Bulls currently had the same winning percentage as last year's team (47-35 = .573, 24 games x .573 = 13.752 wins) and were 14-10 instead of 12-12, everyone who "pumping the fist in the air" about the Knicks would still be "pumping the fist in the air".


You can keep playing this game if you want to. If the Bulls don't improve quick you'll have to stop in a couple months. Its very questionable to compare the current team to the squad from the first month of last year.




> And most of us would be happy as hell that the Knicks are 6-18 even if we didn't have their pick next summer, because the Knicks are a hated rival, Isiah is a hated rival, and a lot of people don't like the Nomad, either.


Not to mention, that you "hated" at least one current Knick while he was a Bull.

You hated a Bull. Or at least wrote a very, very angry song about it.



> So say "everyone is enjoying the Knicks failures so that they don't have to concentrate on our horri-Bulls" all you want, *IT SIMPLY AIN'T TRUE.*


"Everyone?" When did I say that?






> I guess "look at THIS season" only goes for the Bulls?


Its the only team I care about from a W-L standpoint, so yah. If you're excited about waiting another couple years for our team to matter again, then more power to you. I was thrilled last year when we were relevant. Does not seem to be the case anymore.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I've never really understood the "bitter rivalry" with the Knicks. To me, a rivalry is something created by history, geography, or repeated shared excellence (Lakers-Celtics). I don't think Knicks-Bulls qualifies on any of those levels. We've beaten them like a drum with regularity, and on only one occasion did they really push us to the limits and almost derail a championship.

I hate the Pistons much, much more than I do the Knicks. It's not even close.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Last season we could beat the Pistons at the Palace.


Huh?

Last season, we couldn't beat the Spurs even in Chicago. 

This season, we beat the Spurs in San Antonio.

:rotf:

So we have gone from being able to beat the Pistons and not being able to beat the Spurs to being able to beat the Spurs and not being able to beat the Pistons.

To quote the immortal Jack Chucker "I think I'm confused".

I'm sorry, but I can think of no other reaction to such a statement, when I don't even know what it's supposed to mean.

Should I be mad that now we can't beat the Pistons, or thrilled that now we can beat the Spurs?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I agree.

I used to hate the Knicks and the Pistons.

Right now the Knicks are a train wreck, not worth *hating* at all IMO, unless you are just angry in general, and I actually like the current Pistons team. I root for them to win it all, if the Bulls don't have a chance. I respect their team.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> I've never really understood the "bitter rivalry" with the Knicks. To me, a rivalry is something created by history, geography, or repeated shared excellence (Lakers-Celtics). I don't think Knicks-Bulls qualifies on any of those levels. We've beaten them like a drum with regularity, and on only one occasion did they really push us to the limits and almost derail a championship.
> 
> I hate the Pistons much, much more than I do the Knicks. It's not even close.


Agreed- though I do think that part of our rivalry with the Knicks now stems from the fact that the lead Bad Boy is in charge (at least for me, personally).

And our rivalry with the Knicks is more recent- the Bad Boys were done after 1991, the Knicks actually knocked us out of the playoffs in 1994.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Should I be mad that now we can't beat the Pistons, or thrilled that now we can beat the Spurs?


I don't know what to tell you about managing your anger.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Huh?
> 
> Last season, we couldn't beat the Spurs even in Chicago.
> 
> This season, we beat the Spurs in San Antonio.
> 
> :rotf:
> 
> So we have gone from being able to beat the Pistons and not being able to beat the Spurs to being able to beat the Spurs and not being able to beat the Pistons.
> 
> To quote the immortal Jack Chucker "I think I'm confused".
> 
> I'm sorry, but I can think of no other reaction to such a statement, when I don't even know what it's supposed to mean.
> 
> Should I be mad that now we can't beat the Pistons, or thrilled that now we can beat the Spurs?


Atlanta's beaten the Spurs, too. Should they just forfeit the rest of their games and have a parade?

I guess I don't even know what putting so much faith and importance in a single victory is supposed to mean.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> our rivalry with the Knicks is more recent- the Bad Boys were done after 1991, the Knicks actually knocked us out of the playoffs in 1994.


You don't think we have a pretty fresh rivalry going with the Pistons right now?

On the other hand, I guess if I follow my own "shared excellence" criteria, you're probably right. We haven't beaten the Pistons in our own building in five years.


----------



## Babble-On

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Last season we could beat the Pistons at the Palace. This year we get smoked by virtually an identical team. Last year the last 2/3 of the season we could hang with virtually any team in the NBA. This year, at least currently, that's not the case.
> 
> Its not just the east retooling. The Pistons are pretty much the same team... that's a pretty good benchmark IMO.


The Pistons, though they have the same guys playing, are a much better team at this point in the season than they were last year. A lot of our success last year also owes to the fact that for a good portion of the season the playoff teams in the East were down. The Pistons were struggling/crusing. The Pacers were missing several starters for most of the season because of suspension and injury. The Nets were tanking half the season and we still couldn't beat them. The Bucks lost both their starting point guards, had a bad season, and we still struggled against and lost to them twice. I'd also point out that the Heat pretty much owned us last year, as we had to go to OT to eke out a win against them with Shaq out and Wade struggling. A lot of things fell into place just right for the Bulls to be as successful as they were last season, and fo the most part those things aren't in play this year. The Pistons are better than probably ever. The Bucks have Ford back better than ever, plus Bogut, plus Magloire, plus Simmons. The Nets have all their people in place. The Pacers have had more Artest problems, but they do have have O'Neal and Jackson, which is an improvement over last year. The Cavs are stronger. The Sixers are stronger. The reality is we weren't gonna compete for anything this year no matter how much you wanna insist otherwise. Best case scenario would've been pretty much the same as it is now. Sneak into the second round and get waxed by the Pistons or Heat.





I honestly don't see how our chances to become a contender were so much better with Eddy here. In fact I think if we signed both of the underachieving towers, we'd be pretty much set in stone, like the Grizzlies are currently. Maybe you're still holding on to your stock in the "Eddy is the next Shaq" dream we all were sold, in spite of the fact that its year five of his career. Or you think someone would be willing to give up a star for guys who aren't stars who are on a middle of the pack team, who are possibly locked up in long term deals.


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> I guess I don't even know what putting so much faith and importance in a single victory is supposed to mean..




True dat.

But as long as we ensure that that above statement also applies to the "Knicks beat the Bulls this season" argument, we can all live happily ever after.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Babble-On said:


> Also, weren't you complaining most of last season, even when we had this team you now speak so highly of?


Didn't you think the team last year was a good one? Yah, I, along with everyone else, was stunned by their success, especially after their poor start.

I agree our division is stronger. But we've only played 2 division games to this point. The not just losses but drubbings the Pistons laid on us were particularly demoralizing though, as has been highlighted in another thread.




> I honestly don't see how our chances to become a contender were so much better with Eddy here. In fact I think if we signed both of the underachieving towers, we'd be pretty much set in stone, like the Grizzlies are currently. Maybe you're still holding on to your stock in the "Eddy is the next Shaq" dream we all were sold, in spite of the fact that its year five of his career. Or you think someone would be willing to give up a star for guys who aren't stars who are on a middle of the pack team, who are possibly locked up in long term deals.


There will never be a next SHAQ. Curry, Chandler and AD made up a very effective trio of big men for us. We had a good shot to beat any team in the league on any given night.

I think that having productive players locked up would make the aftermath of losing a Gordon or Hinrich in a "for a star" trade less severe.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> Atlanta's beaten the Spurs, too. Should they just forfeit the rest of their games and have a parade?
> 
> I guess I don't even know what putting so much faith and importance in a single victory is supposed to mean.


Exactly, and that was my question-

What is one single defeat in Detroit supposed to mean? IMHO, no more than one single victory in San Antonio means, right?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> You don't think we have a pretty fresh rivalry going with the Pistons right now?
> 
> On the other hand, I guess if I follow my own "shared excellence" criteria, you're probably right. We haven't beaten the Pistons in our own building in five years.


That's what I was thinking, that we aren't at the Pistons level right about now. At least the Knicks of the early 90's were able to take MJ and Company to 7 games once, and we aren't at that level yet.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Exactly, and that was my question-
> 
> What is one single defeat in Detroit supposed to mean? IMHO, no more than one single victory in San Antonio means, right?


Not so much the fact that we lost.

Its more the way we lost. Especially in the 2nd game. The "revenge" game.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Exactly, and that was my question-
> 
> What is one single defeat in Detroit supposed to mean? IMHO, no more than one single victory in San Antonio means, right?


A game vs. a division rival, the best team in the NBA, and the team our GM has serially admitted is the team he's patterning the Bulls after carries a little more weight with me than does any game against a Western Conference team, whether it's a defending champion or also-ran.


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> A game vs. a division rival, the best team in the NBA, and the team our GM has serially admitted is the team he's patterning the Bulls after carries a little more weight with me than does any game against a Western Conference team, defending champion or also-ran.


If we're ultimately going to win a championship, beating a team like the Pistons is critical. It's a measure of how (VERY) far we have to go.


----------



## Babble-On

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Didn't you think the team last year was a good one? Yah, I, along with everyone else, was stunned by their success, especially after their poor start.
> 
> I agree our division is stronger. But we've only played 2 division games to this point. The not just losses but drubbings the Pistons laid on us were particularly demoralizing though, as has been highlighted in another thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There will never be a next SHAQ. Curry, Chandler and AD made up a very effective trio of big men for us. We had a good shot to beat any team in the league on any given night.
> 
> I think that having productive players locked up would make the aftermath of losing a Gordon or Hinrich in a "for a star" trade less severe.


I think the team was good last year, but like I said, the extent to which they were good was inflated because of the state of disarray that the rest of the conference was in, and even then, I didn't think they were gonna be a champ contender then, or this year. I also think this year's team has also shown an ability to beat pretty much any team on a given night, other than the Pistons. Kind of like the way we the Heat and Rockets just stomped us last year, except that game where we got lucky with Shaq getting hurt and we won. Not to the same extent as last year, but still.

Also, how can you one day call Chandler and his contract an albotross then refer to it as having a productive player locked the next? I think that the idea that we were gonna parlay one of Hinrich and Gordon into a star, plus keep everybody else in place, plus cap space for a group of players who you obviously don't think much of to become a contender is an just as, or even more abstract a thing to look towards for making the team a contender as is having one, maybe two lotto picks ,expiring contracts, plus decent players still on rookie deals to peddle in trade, plus some cap space. I'd say its a little bit more likely we could improve our team as it is now then it would be if we had signed both Curry and Chandler for All-Star type money. Now, you may have a valid argument that based on the season to date,Curry should've been the one kept, but if Chandler returns to last year's form I'd prefer him.

Edit - can a mod move these posts to the season is a wash or similar? This thread has very effetively been hijacked.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Babble-On said:


> Edit - can a mod move these posts to the season is a wash or similar? This thread has very effetively been hijacked.



nah. this is just the ebb and flow. it's either here, or the JC/EC updates, so pick your poison. 


i really love this thread. it serves such a myriad of purposes beyond hoping the knicks suck and we get a good pick out of the deal.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> A game vs. a division rival, the best team in the NBA, and the team our GM has serially admitted is the team he's patterning the Bulls after carries a little more weight with me than does any game against a Western Conference team, *whether it's a defending champion or also-ran*.


I agreed until that last phrase, it means a lot more to beat the defending champs than to beat some non-descript lottery like the Knicks.

This being the Knicks thread and all, what does it mean that we lost to the Knicks?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Babble-On said:


> Also, how can you one day call Chandler and his contract an albotross then refer to it as having a productive player locked the next?



Chandler at his current level of production is an albatross.

Chandler playing like he did last season is a very good player. One that changes games.

I'm still not sure what the problem with Chandler is. Is it his new role? Is he truly worse off physically from last season? I'm not sure. I tend to think its more the mix of players we have right now than any breathing condition.

I was excited at the end of last year about the prospect of seeing Hinrich, Gordon, Duhon, Deng, Noc, Curry and CHandler blossom into a contender. I think adding one legit 2 guard is all we needed actually. It seemed like we would either have the Cap Space or tradable assets to do it. I could see that team winning the eastern conference in 2 years, especially with the competitive advantage we had over most team with our athletic bigs. I could also see players like Crawford and Marshall playing roles as well.

Now, I have a very hard time projecting that. Now its back to hoping the draft gives us the horses or some star falls into our lap. Its back to lotto balls and hoping this year's TMAC chooses us, or perhaps a trade.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> A game vs. a division rival, the best team in the NBA, and the team our GM has serially admitted is the team he's patterning the Bulls after carries a little more weight with me than does any game against a Western Conference team, whether it's a defending champion or also-ran.


So you just basically reversed directions with that statement, although managing to tack on some worthless qualifiers.


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> nah. this is just the ebb and flow. it's either here, or the JC/EC updates, so pick your poison.
> 
> 
> i really love this thread. it serves such a myriad of purposes beyond hoping the knicks suck and we get a good pick out of the deal.


I just love the title of this thread; It even rhymes: "Larry Brown/ Knick Meltdown." 

Larry Brown, 

enabler for all of this catharsis. Venomous hate/undying devotion for our ex-playas. Hope for a better tomorrow: Glass half full, and half empty. Devoutly tracking the quest towards Saucaucus. Thank you, Larry. Thank you. 

:banana:


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> I agreed until that last phrase, it means a lot more to beat the defending champs than to beat some non-descript lottery like the Knicks.
> 
> This being the Knicks thread and all, what does it mean that we lost to the Knicks?


I guess you could say that any single regular season win or loss is meaningless; it's how you finish the whole thing that matters.

I still put much more stock in games that come against teams you're likely to face in the playoffs. There's a not unimaginable chance we could face Detroit in the first or second round. There is virtually no chance we'll meet the Spurs or Knicks in the playoffs.

The Knicks game doesn't mean much in and of itself. When I match it up with similar swift and sudden collapses against teams like Portland and Seattle, though, I get a little concerned. It's not something that happened a lot last year.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

*NYC transit strike is over!* union leadership voted to end the strike. subways and buses should start running later today/tonight.

thank god.

happy holidays larry!

happy holidays to all!


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Chandler at his current level of production is an albatross.
> 
> Chandler playing like he did last season is a very good player. One that changes games.
> 
> I'm still not sure what the problem with Chandler is. Is it his new role? Is he truly worse off physically from last season? I'm not sure. I tend to think its more the mix of players we have right now than any breathing condition.
> 
> *I was excited at the end of last year about the prospect of seeing Hinrich, Gordon, Duhon, Deng, Noc, Curry and CHandler blossom into a contender. I think adding one legit 2 guard is all we needed actually. It seemed like we would either have the Cap Space or tradable assets to do it. I could see that team winning the eastern conference in 2 years, especially with the competitive advantage we had over most team with our athletic bigs.* I could also see players like Crawford and Marshall playing roles as well.
> 
> *Now, I have a very hard time projecting that. Now its back to hoping the draft gives us the horses or some star falls into our lap. Its back to lotto balls and hoping this year's TMAC chooses us, or perhaps a trade.*


OK, so we have gone from a team that was "one legit 2 guard" away from "winning the Eastern Conference in 2 years" to "hoping for ......"

Well, almost without exception, we still have that exact same core and the same cap space and same tradeable assets.

What has changed:

LOST: Excuses Constantly
ADDED: Sweets, the #2 pick in the draft, $5 million in cap space, moving up in the draft in 2007, 2007 and 2009 2nd-round picks

I'm pretty sure that we can find another athletic big with all of those assets.

I fail to see the gloom and doom, and I fail to see why you don't just come out and say what you mean:

"This team cannot replace Eddy Curry with the assets acquired when he left. Period." Because that is *all* that has changed, so don't beat around the bush, just say what you mean.

It will be a lot easier for all of us.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> I fail to see the gloom and doom, and I fail to see why you don't just come out and say what you mean:
> 
> *"This team cannot replace Eddy Curry with the assets acquired when he left. Period."* Because that is *all* that has changed, so don't beat around the bush, just say what you mean.


Why don't you stop building strawmen?

And, if you want to see what's changed, watch the games. We're not as good a team.

There was an actual product on the court last season that was better than most of the other teams in the league. And we were still very young. 

Now we're back to future draft picks and Cap Space dreams.

Reality versus fantasy.

Its not just me, as you would like to paint it. Read the paper. Listen to the radio. Talk to the fans. Many are unimpressed.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> I guess you could say that any single regular season win or loss is meaningless; it's how you finish the whole thing that matters.
> 
> I still put much more stock in games that come against teams you're likely to face in the playoffs. There's a not unimaginable chance we could face Detroit in the first or second round. There is virtually no chance we'll meet the Spurs or Knicks in the playoffs.


Yeah, but I would say that an early-December game doesn't mean very much at all, as teams are often much different in December than in March and April. 

Now if they blow us in March, I'd say that's a lot more alarming. (EDIT: Wow, that would be alarming! "blow us *out*")



> The Knicks game doesn't mean much in and of itself. When I match it up with similar swift and sudden collapses against teams like Portland and Seattle, though, I get a little concerned. It's not something that happened a lot last year.


I think we are especially hurting in the 4th quarter this season as Ben and Tyson are both well below their All-Star caliber 4th quarter play from last season.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> *NYC transit strike is over!* union leadership voted to end the strike. subways and buses should start running later today/tonight.
> 
> thank god.
> 
> happy holidays larry!
> 
> happy holidays to all!


I second that, although I must say that I had the greatest (but surreal) commute today. Apparently no one in Westchester / Rockland / Putnam / Duchess / Orange counties, New Jersey, or Connecticut knows three other people they can drive to work with, because we saw MAYBE ten other southbound cars on the Henry Hudson this morning. I mean, I could have stopped the car, gotten out, and taken a picture and I wouldn't have been in danger. It was weird.

Total commuting time: 19 minutes. 

I'll miss that. But I can't wait to cram into a subway and return the streets of Manhattan to the inconsiderate single occupancy drivers! Hooray!


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Now if they blow us in March, I'd say that's a lot more alarming.


That's an understatement.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Why don't you stop building strawmen?
> 
> And, if you want to see what's changed, watch the games. We're not as good a team.
> 
> There was an actual product on the court last season that was better than most of the other teams in the league. And we were still very young.
> 
> Now we're back to future draft picks and Cap Space dreams.
> 
> Reality versus fantasy.
> 
> Its not just me, as you would like to paint it. Read the paper. Listen to the radio. Talk to the fans. Many are unimpressed.


:rotf:

Thank you for making my point.

"We're not as good a team". If you say so, the record is better than last season at this time, but whatever.

The entire freaking world can see that we are an undersized team, just look at the "height" column on the roster and a 6-year-old can see that.

Is this team as good as the team was at the end of last season? No, just look at the "won-loss" column in the paper and a 6-year-old can see that as well.

Are you the only one who thinks Excuses Constantly is irreplaceable? Never said you were. I don't know why you are ashamed to admit your feelings when they are so obvious.

But to say we have gone from a FUTURE as "a legit 2 guard from being EC champions in 2 years" to "hoping for lotto balls and Cap Space", there has yet to be ONE person on this board who agrees. 

And last I checked, we are ALL Bulls fans here, some quite rabid ones if we sit around and talk about them online.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Now, back to the actual topic of the thread, and not the State of the Bulls address:

*Marbury Not Worried About Being Dealt*

22nd December, 2005 - 1:29 pm 

NY Post - Stephon Marbury is not worried about being traded. Thomas made remarks over the weekend he's building around "three pieces" — Eddy Curry, Channing Frye and Larry Brown. However, Thomas said Marbury will be with the club after February's trade deadline. 

"I feel secure," Marbury said. "I'm fine here. I feel I'm part of it."


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> "We're not as good a team". If you say so, the record is better than last season at this time, but whatever.


This argument has absolutely no merit, IMO. None.





> Are you the only one who thinks Excuses Constantly is irreplaceable? Never said you were. I don't know why you are ashamed to admit your feelings when they are so obvious.


Stop building strawmen. I didn't say irreplaceable.



> But to say we have gone from a FUTURE as "a legit 2 guard from being EC champions in 2 years" to "hoping for lotto balls and Cap Space", there has yet to be ONE person on this board who agrees.
> 
> And last I checked, we are ALL Bulls fans here, some quite rabid ones if we sit around and talk about them online.


This isn't a 5th grade schoolyard so the "only one person in the schoolyard" argument is meaningless. If I'm the only one who saw Deng, Chandler and Curry being a legit 3,4 and 5 on a team that could win the east, then fine. I can live with that. But, I was cheering the team on to victory at nearly every game last year, and not writing hateful songs about our starting center. So I think we come from different places.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> I'll miss that. But I can't wait to cram into a subway and return the streets of Manhattan to the inconsiderate single occupancy drivers! Hooray!



cause you know, nothing says "holidays in nyc" better than cramming like blind cattle into an overheated subway car and getting "felt up" by a perfect stranger and his briefcase.

oh wait, that's what it's like in the summer too. 

:smilewink


ok, sorry for the temporary hijack, back to the grilled cheeeeeeeeeese.

behold it's power.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I mean, crazy me, I was hoping the team would build on last year's success and actually improve. At least stay around the same level.

I know this is an absurd way to think, and a crazily unrealistic expectation as a sports fan. 

When do they do the lottery drawing again this year?


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> When do they do the lottery drawing again this year?


May 23rd. 

http://www.nba.com/schedules/key_dates.html


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I mean, crazy me, I was hoping the team would build on last year's success and actually improve. At least stay around the same level.
> 
> I know this is an absurd way to think, and a crazily unrealistic expectation as a sports fan.
> 
> When do they do the lottery drawing again this year?


Funny. All we get are Excuses Constantly about why it's OK to not be better or as good as last season...


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> May 23rd.
> 
> http://www.nba.com/schedules/key_dates.html


LOL, thanks!

And BTW, I agree w/ you about making the playoffs being good exp for our young players this year. I'm hoping they can pull it off.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



DaBullz said:


> Funny. All we get are Excuses Constantly about why it's OK to not be better or as good as last season...


Actually, I think all of the talk about how we are or aren't better this year than last year is premature. 

I don't think one can say "12 and 12 is better than 9 and 15" as a rational justification for a position that the team has improved. But I also don't think "12 and 12 is worse than 47 and 35" is a reasonable justification for the opinion that the team has regressed in any significant way.

I see things about this team so far this season that make me think it will be worse than last year - which is what most of us expected anyway (in differing degrees of severity). But I also see things that make me think that by the time the season is over the team could actually be better (which almost no one, including me, predicted). 

Its too darn early to tell.


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

No one is a bigger bulls fan than i all the way back to the A train, scott may, and david greenwood but i must admit the bulls have taken a small step back this year as a team. The bottom line is we dont have any big men and until we do we will be the 7th or 8th seed. EC and AD are gone and TC is AWOL. Now we do have two draft picks (one will no doubt be a top 5 pick) and cap space but for this year i think 40 some wins a maybe just into the playoffs but until we get some size we are going have a hard time against bigger teams.

david


----------



## lgtwins

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

II am sorry, K4E. But this time Bullsville nailed it. It's so obvious to me that you are just pissed off that Bulls systematically get rid of your two favorite player (JC, and now Curry). That is the only real reason you are *****ing and moaning about the current Bulls. Something tells me that even if we were 18 and 6 or something like that, you would crying here that we would have been 20 and 4 if we have Curry.

I don't buy it. I can certainly live with the Bulls if Curry is still on the roster. And I can certainly live with Curry off the roster. It's no big deal.

I really don't think that the presence of Curry would make that much of difference in this year's W/L. He was never a W impact player for the last 4 years. In last year and also this year, out W/L is more to do with the performances from our 3 Gs. Every time 2 out of 3 have a good game, we won regardless with the production from the front courts. I am sure it was nice to have Curry's 16 ppg but ultimately it won't be big deal unless Curry end up becoming a baby Shaq eventually (which I seriously doubt).

I do understand your disappointment for departure of your favorite players. I would be pissed too if that was the case. But your constant prediction of doom and gloom is completely baseless. As for whether tomorrow is bright or not, I would say the future of Bulls has never been brighter since the end of dynasty.

I am still wondering what would be like if we still have Brand and Miller and wished that Krause never pulled the trigger.

I didn't wonder what if we still have JC or Curry one bit. In fact Paxon put us on more favorable position with these two trade, not in short term but in the long run (actually in 2 or 3 year).


----------



## lgtwins

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> LOL, thanks!
> 
> And BTW, I agree w/ you about making the playoffs being good exp for our young players this year. <b>I'm hoping they can pull it off.</b>


Do you really? Your post sometimes make me wonder? :biggrin:


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



lgtwins said:


> Do you really? Your post sometimes make me wonder? :biggrin:


Its borderline. 

The exp would be useful. Another lotto pick would be useful as well. Its a toss up. 

We're back in asset aquisition mode it seems, not winning games/divisions/conferences/playoff series/championships mode.


----------



## Babble-On

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> We're back in asset aquisition mode it seems, not winning games/divisions/conferences/playoff series/championships mode.



Last time we were in that mode was 1998.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> We're back in asset aquisition mode it seems, not winning games/divisions/conferences/playoff series/championships mode.


See, I think this is part of the problem that people have with what you are saying. We have assets. That does not mean we are "in asset aquisition mode". 

Much to his discredit in my opinion, Paxson didn't want to trade Curry. It is something that happened, not something that has become the organizational philosophy to building a team. Its not like Paxson is dealing Hinrich and Gordon for expiring contracts and future picks. 

It is the goal of this team to win games, divisions, conferences, playoff series and championships. But that is a process. Acquiring assets as the process unfolds is not a bad thing, nor is it grounds for chastising fans who are happily anticipating putting those assets into play. 

Because that is what you are doing, whether you mean to or not. You are effectively saying that fans who are tracking the possible angles of improving the team have resigned themselves to defeat and mediocrity and don't really care about the goal of competing for a ring. 

I don't remember anyone last year saying "we're all set." And no one is saying that now. Indeed, last year there were tons of discussions on this board about how to use trades and capspace to improve the team into a contender. Now the discussions are about trades, *a lottery pick*, and even more capspace. The assets have changed, but the fan mentality has not, by my estimation at least.

As I noted before, hopes for the playoffs and hopes for the lottery are no longer mutually exclusive. Not this year anyway. And perhaps not next year either if the Knicks continue down their current path.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Babble-On said:


> Last time we were in that mode was 1998.


I think we would have defeated the Wizards last year with Curry and Deng.

I'm pretty sure Paxson and Skiles feel the same way.


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> Its not like Paxson is dealing Hinrich and Gordon for expiring contracts and future picks.


Actually, it IS like Paxson is dealing Hinrich and Gordon for expiring contracts and future picks. He's done that kind of thing quite consistently - first it was Crawford, then Curry. The names and faces change, what goes on doesn't. Curry was actually called a cornerstone of the franchise. The 3 Cs included both Curry and Crawford and were _every bit as hyped as our future_ as Hinrich and Gordon.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



DaBullz said:


> Actually, it IS like Paxson is dealing Hinrich and Gordon for expiring contracts and future picks. He's done that kind of thing quite consistently - first it was Crawford, then Curry. The names and faces change, what goes on doesn't. Curry was actually called a cornerstone of the franchise. The 3 Cs included both Curry and Crawford and were _every bit as hyped as our future_ as Hinrich and Gordon.


I shouldn't have said "like" I should have said "he's *not* dealing Hinrich and Gordon for expiring contracts and future picks". 

This team is not deliberately tearing itself down to acquire future assets anymore. It did that once, and rightfully so. But those days are over. Crawford was traded because he wasn't deemed worth the cap hit. Period. He wasn't valued by the team. Agree or disagree with Paxson about his value, thats what happened. We didn't even get any future assets for him. Eddy was traded due to concerns over his health, regardless of the debate over whether those concerns had medical merit or not.

As for how hyped those guys were, I'd do you one better. At one time or another, they were MORE hyped than Hinrich and Gordon. Way more hyped.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> I don't remember anyone last year saying "we're all set." And no one is saying that now. Indeed, last year there were tons of discussions on this board about how to use trades and capspace to improve the team into a contender. Now the discussions are about trades, *a lottery pick*, and even more capspace. The assets have changed, but the fan mentality has not, by my estimation at least.


For me at least, I thought we were one piece away at the end of last season. Replace one of our 3 good smallish guards with a legit starting SG, and I thought we were ready to roll.

I have a hard time saying we're one acquirable piece away now (duncan, kg, those types are probably not going to switch teams). We still need to shore up the guard situation, and now we also need one of the hardest things in the world to acquire, a productive starting center. So I see it as a step back. We're two major pieces away now. And if we're going the draft route, we're a couple years away from that player developing, most likely.





> As I noted before, hopes for the playoffs and hopes for the lottery are no longer mutually exclusive. Not this year anyway. And perhaps not next year either if the Knicks continue down their current path.


My hopes are not just making the playoffs anymore though. I want to win a playoff series. I'm very happy to be getting a draft pick next season. Its a shame, IMO, that we had to take a step back to get one, and I question if we even needed one, but certainly the higher pick we have the better. Making the playoffs and getting hammered by the opponent... well... that's not much of an improvement either.


And I think a guy like Gordon is a lot easier to replace than a guy like Curry, if one of the two *has* to be dealt for picks and Cap Space.


----------



## Babble-On

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I think we would have defeated the Wizards last year with Curry and Deng.
> 
> I'm pretty sure Paxson and Skiles feel the same way.


I think we can beat certain teams(Atlantic winner,Cleveland) in the playoffs this year.

I'm pretty sure Paxson and Skiles feel the same way.

I also don't believe Paxson or Skiles believes we would've won the conference or the title last year even with a full complement of players.

Paxson was stating even last season when we were playing well that he was looking towards this offseason to make the big move into contention. Which is why this whole "lowering people's expectations" thing you keep hammering away on is insane. Weren't you complaining about the absence of Jamal and trying to comeup with ways to trade Hinrich for a big guard?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Babble-On said:


> Paxson was stating even last season when we were playing well that he was looking towards this offseason to make the big move into contention. Which is why this whole "lowering people's expectations" thing you keep hammering away on is insane.


This was all before the Curry fiasco, right?

After that, he was not talking about contending at all, not this season.

I can even remember a SCORE interview at the end of last season when he was tempering expectations, before all the Curry stuff became intense.

Tonight's game should give us a clue about Chicago vs. Clev. I hope you are right. They are missing Hughes I think, right? We're missing a good player too.


----------



## Babble-On

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> This was all before the Curry fiasco, right?


Yes.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> For me at least, I thought we were one piece away at the end of last season. Replace one of our 3 good smallish guards with a legit starting SG, and I thought we were ready to roll.
> 
> I have a hard time saying we're one acquirable piece away now (duncan, kg, those types are probably not going to switch teams). We still need to shore up the guard situation, and now we also need one of the hardest things in the world to acquire, a productive starting center. So I see it as a step back. We're two major pieces away now. And if we're going the draft route, we're a couple years away from that player developing, most likely.


Thats a valid opinion. I don't share it, but its certainly reasonable. 



> My hopes are not just making the playoffs anymore though. I want to win a playoff series.


I think thats what we all want. We just seem to have different timetables as to when that should be the expectation when balanced with what, in the long run, is the better route for the team to compete at the highest level when its all said and done.



> I'm very happy to be getting a draft pick next season. Its a shame, IMO, that we had to take a step back to get one, and I question if we even needed one, but certainly the higher pick we have the better. Making the playoffs and getting hammered by the opponent... well... that's not much of an improvement either.


Getting to exactly where we got last year with an extra lottery pick, $7-8 million more in capspace, and pick swap option with one of the worst teams in the league the following season (a team that will likely rely solely on internal improvement to get better) to boot is an improvement. It would signifiy that the Bulls effectively survived the loss of our starting frontcourt, and at the same time acquired excellent additional assets to get even better in the future. Assets that they would not have otherwise had.



> And I think a guy like Gordon is a lot easier to replace than a guy like Curry, if one of the two *has* to be dealt for picks and Cap Space.


My opinion about the replaceability of Eddy Curry is pretty well known. I don't think it serves any purpose to debate that again here. I know you disagree and why, so lets just leave that one alone for the good of everyone else.


----------



## lgtwins

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> <b>My opinion about the replaceability of Eddy Curry is pretty well known.</b> I don't think it serves any purpose to debate that again here. I know you disagree and why, <b>so lets just leave that one alone for the good of everyone else.</b>


Thank you, thank you, thank you. :clap:


----------



## Babble-On

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Whats going on with Nazr Mohammed in San Antone this season? He started for the Spurs in the playoffs, but for some reason Nesterovich was given the starting job this season. How much does he figure to command in free agency? I'd much prefer him to Pryz.


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Knick beat the depleated Jazz to pull themselves out of the basement. Hawks win too, so its only Toronto "in front" of them. Crawford drops 28 on 9-16 shooting.


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Seems like we're in the midst of a meltdown of our own.


----------



## remlover

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Bulls lost, Knicks won, JC does well...Must have made a lot of the posters happy.


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://www.nba.com/games/20051223/PORMIN/recap.html

Portland pulls off a rare road win to move one place back in front of the Knick. This leaves the knick tied with the surging Hawk [5-2 over the last 7] for second place in the "race" to Saucaucus.

Things are looking a little up. . .


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



such sweet thunder said:


> Crawford drops 28 on 9-16 shooting.


He's bad.


----------



## bbertha37

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

4 GP, 30.3 MPG, .188 FG%, .167 3P%, 3.7 rpg, 4.0 apg, 2.3 TO/G, 5.5 ppg

He's a consistent, game-changing stud!









Boy, this never gets old.


----------



## TRUTHHURTS

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

This is getting kinda serious now :curse: 


the knicks are now one and half games behind us and two out of the 8th spot we play tomorrow and they get the Raptors on sunday.

Everyone else above them is free falling and if the Nets cool off after winning ten in a row the past few weeks they may catch them and secure the 3rd seed. :eek8:

Could you imagine us getting the 6th seed and the knicks with the third ? :lol: 

talk about an all mod alert I think they would have to call back in retired mods for that series :biggrin:


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Bulls/Knicks in the 1st round of the playoffs would be one of the coolest series ever.

Crawford is playing really well as of late. Even I'm suprised at the turnaround. But, we all knew the talent was there. Its just getting them to "gel." Larry Brown is usually a winner.


----------



## Pippenatorade

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Some dude at center has 15 points on 7-10 FG. Gotta love watching what should have been OUR guy having 70% FG nights and shooting 53.2% going into tonight's game for the season.


----------



## jimmy

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

We might want to change the title of this thread, unfortunately.

Their recent success makes Wednesday's game more exciting.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



jimmy said:


> We might want to change the title of this thread, unfortunately.
> 
> Their recent success makes Wednesday's game more exciting.


Nope, we're stuck with the name we got, even if it ends up making us look like a bunch of loudmouth fools.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Pippenatorade said:


> Some dude at center has 15 points on 7-10 FG. Gotta love watching what should have been OUR guy having 70% FG nights and shooting 53.2% going into tonight's game for the season.


I didn't see the game, but I did see the highlight package at the half of Seattle-Miami, and it made me angry -- a series of vicious Curry dunks, some Crawford drives, Larry Brown in a lingering, intimate hug with his brother.

At least Curry and Crawford are old and don't have 8-10+ years of good ball left in them.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

larry brown's 1000th career win.

mark messier - THE captain - in the house for inspiration.

spike lee egging on lil' nate. 

josh lucas doing his 7835th press opportunity for "glory road". 

the NY backpages are singing a different tune these days.

in the spirit of equal time (goodness knows i enjoy all the doom and gloom covers too)


----------



## NYKBaller

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Cant wait till wednesday, first time Curry playing against Chicago.


----------



## TRUTHHURTS

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/60353.htm



> January 14, 2006 -- If Jamal Crawford keeps this up and the Knicks keep up their renaissance, Crawford may play himself into the NBA Sixth Man Award.
> Crawford scored 25 points in last night's win over the Hawks, his fourth straight 20-point game.
> 
> When Crawford was excelling back in December, Larry Brown did not feel compelled to place him back into the starting lineup, believing his explosiveness off the bench was something the Knicks needed.
> 
> "I don't look at him as a sub," Brown said. "I want him to get major minutes. The thing what I like about him coming off the bench, I could plug him in for Steph [Marbury], Nate [Robinson] or sometimes go small (with three guards). He seems to be enjoying the role. If you're really being fair and he said he wanted to start, I wouldn't have a problem with that, either."
> 
> It took time for Crawford to feel the same way about his non-starting role.
> 
> "Before, it was a new role, I didn't know how to play it," admitted Crawford, averaging 15.5 points on 42.5 percent shooting, up from last season's 39 percent as a starter. "I'd come in and wouldn't step on anyone's toes. And Coach was like, 'You're playing too tentative. Be aggressive and I'll help you along the way. Just try to be aggressive.' Either way I'm happy. I'm comfortable with it."
> 
> Crawford's situation is symbolic of the Knicks' season — they had to take a step back before taking a step forward under Brown.
> 
> 
> 
> "I think it's more shocking that we got off to bad start than we've won the last (six) games," Crawford said.
> 
> Crawford had never had a five-game win streak as a pro.
> 
> "Sometimes it takes guys time to learn how to win," Brown said.


----------



## USSKittyHawk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> larry brown's 1000th career win.
> 
> mark messier - THE captain - in the house for inspiration.
> 
> spike lee egging on lil' nate.
> 
> josh lucas doing his 7835th press opportunity for "glory road".
> 
> the NY backpages are singing a different tune these days.
> 
> in the spirit of equal time (goodness knows i enjoy all the doom and gloom covers too)


Rep Miz! I'm glad you even post good covers as well as bad. :biggrin:


----------



## Pippenatorade

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> I didn't see the game, but I did see the highlight package at the half of Seattle-Miami, and it made me angry -- a series of vicious Curry dunks, some Crawford drives, Larry Brown in a lingering, intimate hug with his brother.
> 
> At least Curry and Crawford are old and don't have 8-10+ years of good ball left in them.


I'm gonna cry


----------



## RoRo

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Pippenatorade said:


> I'm gonna cry


i'm going to cry if the knicks come into wednesdays game with a better record than the bulls  

bulls are vs denver on monday
knicks vs raps(sun) and minne (mon)

we're ahead of the knicks by 1 game in the conference standings.


----------



## Pippenatorade

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



RoRo said:


> i'm going to cry if the knicks come into wednesdays game with a better record than the bulls
> 
> bulls are vs denver on monday
> knicks vs raps(sun) and minne (mon)
> 
> we're ahead of the knicks by 1 game in the conference standings.


I'm not. It's hard to hate the Knicks. I've never hated the Knicks players. I hate the fans. And if I can watch Eddy and Antonio have success I should be happy for them. I mean if they go on a tear, it's not like we are in direct competition. Until further notice we are teams headed in opposite directions. And I could honestly root for any team with Antonio Davis on it. The guy deserves nothing but the best. As long as I don't have to see Knicks FANS, I'll silently be pulling for them the way that some Bulls fans pull for Brand's Clippers. I'm no Knick fan, but I've been a huge fan of Curry since about 1998 and will always be an Antonio Davis fan. That guy was everything that Jerome Williams, Jalen Rose, and Charles Oakley preached when they talked all that "Teach the Kids" junk, but he actually DID IT! I find it easy to pull for a bunch of players benefitting from hard work and realizing their talent. Plus, when Jordan buys the team, all those guys are potential Re-signees one day! Some say this season is a wash. I think that under Paxson and Reinsdorf and with Skiles and Chandler's contract, the next 2-3 seasons are a wash. So it's not hard to hope others do well while we are down. It'd be different if we were like last year, but at this point, we aren't competing, so I figure why the frig not?


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Pippenatorade said:


> I'm not. It's hard to hate the Knicks. I've never hated the Knicks players. I hate the fans. And if I can watch Eddy and Antonio have success I should be happy for them. I mean if they go on a tear, it's not like we are in direct competition. Until further notice we are teams headed in opposite directions. And I could honestly root for any team with Antonio Davis on it. The guy deserves nothing but the best. As long as I don't have to see Knicks FANS, I'll silently be pulling for them the way that some Bulls fans pull for Brand's Clippers. I'm no Knick fan, but I've been a huge fan of Curry since about 1998 and will always be an Antonio Davis fan. That guy was everything that Jerome Williams, Jalen Rose, and Charles Oakley preached when they talked all that "Teach the Kids" junk, but he actually DID IT! I find it easy to pull for a bunch of players benefitting from hard work and realizing their talent. Plus, when Jordan buys the team, all those guys are potential Re-signees one day! Some say this season is a wash. I think that under Paxson and Reinsdorf and with Skiles and Chandler's contract, the next 2-3 seasons are a wash. So it's not hard to hope others do well while we are down. It'd be different if we were like last year, but at this point, we aren't competing, so I figure why the frig not?



i wouldn't go as far as you , but i have no problem watching the knicks either , in fact i find them pretty entertaining , i find them pretty close to krause's vision for my bulls squad in basic make up at the time he left.

curry at center playing well
JC at guard more control in his game and also playing very well.
a young big man who can post up a bit but can hit a jumpshot well from the outside to give curry space (in bulls world tyson...but it hasn't worked out like that , but in ny frye fits the bill pretty well.)
a pg who is dynamic , strong quick with star quality (in bullsland jay will...in knickland that role is played by marbury)

and a host of role players who should in theory bolster these 4 filling the gaps in their deficiancies and providing a deep well rounded team. the team has its share of likeable players outside of the aforementioned 4, in AD of course , nate robinson, ariza and david lee.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> larry brown's 1000th career win.
> 
> mark messier - THE captain - in the house for inspiration.
> 
> spike lee egging on lil' nate.
> 
> josh lucas doing his 7835th press opportunity for "glory road".
> 
> the NY backpages are singing a different tune these days.
> 
> in the spirit of equal time (goodness knows i enjoy all the doom and gloom covers too)


Boo ya! Good for them. When this whole saga began this season, it was pretty commonly accepted that Larry had a knack for getting dysfunctional underachievers and selfish showboats to buy into his system. It took longer than I expected, but it certanly seems to have happened. 

As for our team, I can only hope that Scooter can get the kids re-motivated and make a stand in the second half.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Looks like the Knicks win streak is in jeopardy.... thanks to Jalen Rose!!!!!


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2006011528

Eddy with 20 and 6 with 330 left in the 3rd.


----------



## RoRo

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

getting ready to check out the bears game, but i'm tuned into this game at the moment and the raps are combining good shooting with a pack-the-paint zone defense. the zone is slowing up the knicks offense. bosh and rose rolling on offense. the refs are calling every bit of contact on the perimeter, ugly game. full crowd and it's so quiet u can hear the coaches yelling instructions lol.


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Eddy Curry has 6 assists for the whole season.

That is a pretty amazing stat. Yeah, he's missed some games, but it basically works out to an assist every 4 games or so.


----------



## SALO

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Looks like the Knicks win streak is in jeopardy.... thanks to Jalen Rose!!!!!
> 
> 
> http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2006011528
> 
> Eddy with 20 and 6 with 330 left in the 3rd.


Wow, looking at that boxscore and Jalen was terrific. Perhaps a showcase game on his part? Hurry up and pull that trigger Isiah! Penny for Rose! :gopray:


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

That was, by a mile, Jalen's bets game of the season. He has been more efficient and successful of late, after the arse fell out of his performance at the start of the season.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Wow! A hell of a game by Jalen. Got to give him his props. Eleven fts? We could use some of that!


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Let's not start down the "why did we trade Jalen" tack. Please God no.


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Next five games for the KNICKS:

Monday: Minnesota 
Wednesday: *@CHICAGO*
Thursday: Detroit
Saturday: New Orleans
Wednesday: Sacramento

I think 2-3 looks possible for them.


----------



## rlucas4257

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Knicks are getting better. Most of that can be attributed to making the focus of the team its 2 bigs. Curry and Frye have been really good. Curry is not an allstar but over the last couple of weeks he has been. Frye would be my ROY even though I acknowledge Paul will be. Give David Lee some credit. I thought he would be a Luke Jackson like bust but he has done enough of the little things to help this team win. The Knicks are on the way up. Playoffs? Probably not but certainly not the worst record in the NBA either.


----------



## spongyfungy

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



DaBullz said:


> Eddy Curry has 6 assists for the whole season.
> 
> That is a pretty amazing stat. Yeah, he's missed some games, but it basically works out to an assist every 4 games or so.


 That's Yinka Dare territory. (RIP) 4 assists in 4 seasons for him

Eddy is averaging .2 assists. That's just nasty


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

That is pretty heinous. The one man who was challenging him for the Yinka Dare award, Stromile Swift (who at one stage had one assist for every 45 shot attempts) has turned it around a bit, and now has 16 total assists against 240 field goal attempts. So as far as I'm aware, Curry is pretty drastically out in front there.


----------



## Pippenatorade

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Last I checked teams with the most points won the game, not assists or rebounds. You focus on having complete individual players. I'd rather have a few complete players and a bunch of specialists that bring a winning mix to the table, like

LAST YEAR'S TEAM (Doh!)

Also, again for stats, just like the whole per 48 minute fetish, a lot easier to have good stats "per field goal attempt" when you can't get a shot off.


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Pippenatorade said:


> Last I checked teams with the most points won the game, not assists or rebounds. You focus on having complete individual players. I'd rather have a few complete players and a bunch of specialists that bring a winning mix to the table, like
> 
> LAST YEAR'S TEAM (Doh!)
> 
> Also, again for stats, just like the whole per 48 minute fetish, a lot easier to have good stats "per field goal attempt" when you can't get a shot off.





Easy tiger. We're allowed to point out big gaping weaknesses if they are there.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

From defense to rebounds to assists.... the shell game keeps being played.


----------



## Pippenatorade

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ShamBulls said:


> Easy tiger. We're allowed to point out big gaping weaknesses if they are there.


15-21 is a lot "weaker" than 47-35 

But hey, at least our FRONTCOURT players (last I checked I liked assists from my point guards and sometimes SF and SG) have more assists per FIELD GOAL ATTEMPT right?


----------



## rlucas4257

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Andrew (Newton, MA): What do you think of Jamal Crawford? I know he's not superstar material, but he's really working well in a sixth man role -- substantially better numbers in fewer minutes than as a starter.

SportsNation John Hollinger: (4:12 PM ET ) I'm glad you brought up Crawford. I didn't think it was possible for a Knick to become underrated, but he's having a real good year and nobody's talking about it. He's gotta be near the top of the list as far as Sixth Man candidates are concerned.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



rlucas4257 said:


> Andrew (Newton, MA): What do you think of Jamal Crawford? I know he's not superstar material, but he's really working well in a sixth man role -- substantially better numbers in fewer minutes than as a starter.
> 
> SportsNation John Hollinger: (4:12 PM ET ) I'm glad you brought up Crawford. I didn't think it was possible for a Knick to become underrated, but he's having a real good year and nobody's talking about it. He's gotta be near the top of the list as far as Sixth Man candidates are concerned.


Well, you don't win 6th man of the year on a bad team. It just doesn't happen. But at least Larry Brown seems to think that Crawford's best fit is not as a starter, but as a 3rd guard off the bench. That's what I've been saying for the past 4 years, ever since Crawford played backup PG behind Jay/Jalen. Problem for the Knicks is that, ideally, you want to solidify your starting lineup before putting much effort into your bench (actually that's a problem for the Bulls right now too).


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



yodurk said:


> Well, you don't win 6th man of the year on a bad team. It just doesn't happen. But at least Larry Brown seems to think that Crawford's best fit is not as a starter, but as a 3rd guard off the bench. That's what I've been saying for the past 4 years, ever since Crawford played backup PG behind Jay/Jalen.


If he would have accepted that role in Chicago, he'd still be here, IMO.




> Problem for the Knicks is that, ideally, you want to solidify your starting lineup before putting much effort into your bench (actually that's a problem for the Bulls right now too).


That has been our boon and our bane. That bench of ours kicked other team's benches' butts last year, and that was a big part of our success. That type of unbalanced lineup is gimmicky, though, and can't be sustained for multiple years (not to mention that our starting linup is weaker this year, and our bench is weaker, since key bench players from last year (Ben, Tyson, Noc) are getting more starter minutes.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Crawford may be the 6th man but he gets the 2nd most minutes on the Knicks by a decent margin. 

Its one of those 6th man but not a 6th man things. 2nd in minutes played, 1st guy off the bench. Its a similar thing they were saying about Ricky Davis last year if I'm not mistaken.

TB, I'm not sure the Bulls would have forked over the money, even if Crawford was doing back flips about coming off the bench. His comfort with coming off the bench and getting the 2nd most minutes seem to go along with Crawford's maturation as a solid NBA player.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Its one of those 6th man but not a 6th man things. 2nd in minutes played, 1st guy off the bench. Its a similar thing they were saying about Ricky Davis last year if I'm not mistaken.


Probably a fair comparison.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

knicks lose to the hawk tonight 120-101. a complete meltdown in the third. AD in streetclothes on the bench (has a bad back..._kendra!_). 23 turnovers in the game.

Al Harrington went for 26pts on 8-15 shooting. 10 boards. 3 assists.

clyde was just sounding disgusted while calling the game. lotsa frowns, pouts and scowls on the knicks bench tonight.


----------



## remlover

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

While driving back to Chicago listening to my Sirius i caught the game. Wow what a collapse in the 3rd Quarter. THe Knick radio guys were just as disgusted with their play.

I won't lie, i had the biggest grin on my face driving back. 

Oh, and it sounded like Al played a great all around game. Inside-outside. For anyone that saw it iwth their eyes, how did he look?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Harrington looked pretty good tonight. Knicks didn't... although Eddy did get to the line 12 times in 20 minutes. How many times has a bull been to the line 12+ times in a game this season? How many minutes did it take?

Harrington seems like an inconsistent player... but I would not mind bringing him in to play for the Bulls. I don't get into the "overpaid" thing as many of the Eddy/Jamal/Jalen haters do, but Harrington, based on what he had done throughout his career, would be an "overpaid" player @ a MAX level deal.


----------



## chifaninca

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Harrington looked pretty good tonight. Knicks didn't... although Eddy did get to the line 12 times in 20 minutes. How many times has a bull been to the line 12+ times in a game this season? How many minutes did it take?
> 
> Harrington seems like an inconsistent player... but I would not mind bringing him in to play for the Bulls. I don't get into the "overpaid" thing as many of the Eddy/Jamal/Jalen haters do, but Harrington, based on what he had done throughout his career, would be an "overpaid" player.



Everyone not a hall of famer these days is "overpaid".


Harrington would be an upgrade, though I'd prefer a healthy Nene.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> knicks lose to the hawk tonight 120-101. a complete meltdown in the third. AD in streetclothes on the bench (has a bad back..._kendra!_). 23 turnovers in the game.
> 
> Al Harrington went for 26pts on 8-15 shooting. 10 boards. 3 assists.
> 
> clyde was just sounding disgusted while calling the game. lotsa frowns, pouts and scowls on the knicks bench tonight.


It's Knicks/Rockets as the lead in game for the Superbowl. Think folks at ABC regret that choice?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

If 12 FTA in 20 minutes from your starting center leads to *30-point 4th quarter deficits against the Hawks*, I'd rather see our players not getting to the line.

Tonight's 19 point win was the Hawks' largest of the year, almost doubling their previous high of 11. 

The Hawks' 120 points tonight was their 2nd-highest point total of the season, behind only their other blowout of the Knicks.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

How are Jackie Butler and David Lee getting more minutes than the freakishly athletic $60M center?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> If 12 FTA in 20 minutes from your starting center leads to *30-point 4th quarter deficits against the Hawks*, I'd rather see our players not getting to the line.


You don't think this is true though, do you? Really?

edit. not necesary. TB#1


----------



## unBULLievable

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Wow kukoc4ever.......I'd expect something better than you......

How long will you be riding Jamal's and Eddy's J_0_C_K ???

Get over it man.....

Are you a Bulls fan????

I really doubt it....


Knicks will sUCK for a long time.

Jalen goes to Toronto---> Raps suck

Pax sends Jamal to NY---->Knicks suck

Pax sends Eddy to NY---->Knicks suck even more!!!!

edit. not necessary. Probably should edit more of this post, but I don't have the patience. TB#1


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



unBULLievable said:


> Wow kukoc4ever.......I'd expect something better than you......
> 
> How long will you be riding Jamal's and Eddy's J_0_C_K ???
> 
> Get over it man.....
> 
> Are you a Bulls fan????
> 
> I really doubt it....
> 
> 
> Knicks will sUCK for a long time.
> 
> Jalen goes to Toronto---> Raps suck
> 
> Pax sends Jamal to NY---->Knicks suck
> 
> Pax sends Eddy to NY---->Knicks suck even more!!!!



Lets not attack posters personally. Obviously K4E is a Bulls fan or he wouldn't be here. If he wants to like players that are ex Bulls on other teams or that even aren't ex Bulls it is his right and he doesn't deserve to be attacked for it.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ace20004u said:


> Lets not attack posters personally. Obviously K4E is a Bulls fan or he wouldn't be here. If he wants to like players that are ex Bulls on other teams or that even aren't ex Bulls it is his right and he doesn't deserve to be attacked for it.


To be fair, *kukoc4ever!* was just attacking *Bullsville!* for being a fan of the Bull. Seems like if you can constantly throw mud in the face of a person who is actually supporting our team, turnabout should be fair play.... At least *Bullsville!* has the decency to go away for a while when his team is struggling instead of constantly berating our team in the most obnoxious manner possible.

_...I'm not saying, I'm just saying......_


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I know some disagreed with me about this earlier, but I think it's safe to assume the Knicks' 6 game win streak was simply a bad team getting hot, and not a sign of an "improving Larry Brown team" as so many couldn't wait to point out.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> To be fair, *kukoc4ever!* was just attacking *Bullsville!* for being a fan of the Bull. Seems like if you can constantly throw mud in the face of a person who is actually supporting our team, turnabout should be fair play.... At least *Bullsville!* has the decency to go away for a while when his team is struggling instead of constantly berating our team in the most obnoxious manner possible.
> 
> _...I'm not saying, I'm just saying......_


Supporting our team?

He composed a song of hatred about our starting center LAST SEASON!

I've never hated a Bull. Many on the board can't say the same.


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> To be fair, *kukoc4ever!* was just attacking *Bullsville!* for being a fan of the Bull. Seems like if you can constantly throw mud in the face of a person who is actually supporting our team, turnabout should be fair play.... At least *Bullsville!* has the decency to go away for a while when his team is struggling instead of constantly berating our team in the most obnoxious manner possible.
> 
> _...I'm not saying, I'm just saying......_



I hit read last post and I didn't see any post where K4E was attacking Bullsville. In any case, NEITHER poster should EVER attack each other. If they want to take each others posts apart with well thought out arguments thats one thing but personal attacks, either way, are crossing a line.


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> I know some disagreed with me about this earlier, but I think it's safe to assume the Knicks' 6 game win streak was simply a bad team getting hot, and not a sign of an "improving Larry Brown team" as so many couldn't wait to point out.



I still think the Knicks will pull it together. They were playing very well during that win streak and then Marbury got injured and AD was suspended 5 games. They aren't a bad team they just need some stability and to get back to playing defense like they were earlier in the season.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ace20004u said:


> I hit read last post and I didn't see any post where K4E was attacking Bullsville. In any case, NEITHER poster should EVER attack each other. If they want to take each others posts apart with well thought out arguments thats one thing but personal attacks, either way, are crossing a line.


C'mon, *Ace!*, you edited that post yourself! The whole [edit] crap that our boy disguises as humor [edit].

EDIT: My bad, *TB#1!* edited that post, not *Ace!*


and I edited your post -- no sense in me editing, if you come back and repeat what I deleted. TB#1]


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> C'mon, *Ace!*, you edited that post yourself! The whole [edit] crap that our boy disguises as humor [edit].



I did? The only post I recall editing is one for masked cursing a few days ago. I don't think K4E is being an ***, I think he has a vastly different opinion than the majority of posters and it tends to grate on peoples nerves. Still, thats no reason for personal attacks.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> C'mon, *Ace!*, you edited that post yourself! The whole [edit] crap that our boy disguises as humor [edit].


How is this not considered a personal attack, BTW?

I'm used to it from this guy, but jeez.

It WAS a personal attack. People just keep quoting it faster than I can edit.


AAAAAAGHHHH AAAAAGGH AAAAAAAAAAAGH!

TB#1


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I've never hated a Bull.


John Paxson is a Bull.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> John Paxson is a Bull.


I don't hate John Paxson.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Well that was ten minutes of my life I'll never get back. How about making it easy on me and everyone back off the attack mode?


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Everyone, count to 10.............now exhale.

Repeat 2-3 more times, if necessary.

In regards to this thread, the Knicks are 14-29, are playing like crap, and seem to be bogged down in a pretty severe marsh of turmoil. To me, as a Bulls fan, I can only interpret this as good news, since every Knick loss increases the odds of the Bulls being able to drastically improve our team. To that, I say, let's have some dancing bananas. :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: 



:cheers:


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I don't hate John Paxson.


You are highly critical of him and openly advocate that he be fired.

This is precisely the criteria you apply to "many" fans, to use your word, that you claim "hated" Eddy Curry, Jamal Crawford or Jalen Rose. When in fact that "hatred" was simply open and severe criticism of those players often followed by advocating that they be traded or not re-signed.

I know one poster wrote a song about one player. But thats one guy. 

You bring this up a lot, about other posters not supporting certain players while they are Bulls, yet your persistent criticisms of John Paxson rival, and arguably surpass, any criticisms that have been levied at these players.

Don't get me wrong, its your right to do so. But what you do is precisely what you proclaim to detest from other posters. Whats good for the goose and all that.


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Personally, I'm loving this whole Knick suckiness thing. The Knicks are the only franchise in the NBA that I truly dislike. That they're having such a bad season is all cake to me. That we own their unrestricted pick is the icing on that cake. That we own what, in essence, is another unrestricted pick in 2007 (should we choose to use it) is like a big glob of Bryers Ice cream on the side...

My only wish is that Zeke stay at the helm of the Knicks thru the 06-07 season. That'll pretty much assure us of getting another top pick in 2007.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

In all honestly, kukoc4ever can be downright comical. After getting blown out by Atlanta, of all teams, he still manages to praise Eddy and insult the Bulls:



> Harrington looked pretty good tonight. Knicks didn't... although Eddy did get to the line 12 times in 20 minutes. How many times has a bull been to the line 12+ times in a game this season? How many minutes did it take?


That's just funny. :laugh:


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> You are highly critical of him and openly advocate that he be fired.
> 
> You bring this up a lot, about other posters not supporting certain players while they are Bulls, yet your persistent criticisms of John Paxson rival, and arguably surpass, any criticisms that have been levied at these players.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, its your right to do so. But what you do is precisely what you proclaim to detest from other posters. Whats good for the goose and all that.


I feel that I have legitimate concerns about the way Paxson runs this team, especially the unneeded cap on our long term progress imposed by his "jib" campaign.

People were actually happy that we lost our starting center and leading scorer from last season and replaced him with a guy chilling in NYC and an overweight 12th man. They disliked the leading scorer on our 47 win team, while he was on the team, and seemingly couldn’t wait for him to be gone. 

EDIT: I realize you could say the same about my opinion of Paxson, but also remember that I was going to quit the "Fire Pax" club if Curry, Chandler, Duhon and Skiles were retained. 


But I don't hate Paxson. Every time I've met him he seems like a nice guy and he's made a lot of good moves, IMO... I just don't think his philosophies are going to win us a NBA title.

The hatred that I see on this board towards Bulls when they were on the team and once they are off the team comes from a different place, IMO. There is no anger in my feelings on Paxson. If he got a job with another team, I would not gleefully and ruthlessly point out his failures. He was a good radio announcer, he should go back to doing that. You can wrap it in the draft pick if you want, but the same would be happening without it, IMO. It certainly did last year with Crawford, and there was no draft pick involved in that mess.

I'm not going to be able to out-lawyer you on this stuff, and that's not a personal attack, its just that I think you would be able to out-lawyer me if I was trying to point out that ice is cold. But I feel there is a difference in my honest critiques of Paxson compared to what I've read here over the last couple of year about players like Jalen Rose, Jamal Crawford and Eddy Curry.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Zeb said:


> In all honestly, kukoc4ever can be downright comical. After getting blown out by Atlanta, of all teams, he still manages to praise Eddy and insult the Bulls:


How is that an insult against the Bulls?

We don't get to the line much. Our own GM seemingly agrees.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> How is that an insult against the Bulls?
> 
> We don't get to the line much. Our own GM seemingly agrees.


Was it a compliment on our inability to get to the line?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Zeb said:


> Was it a compliment on our inability to get to the line?


Its an honest critique. 

If bringing up our inability to get to the line, which is widely considered to be important to winning or losing basketball games, is an insult, than Paxson has "insulted" the team as well.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Its an honest critique.
> 
> If bringing up our inability to get to the line, which is widely considered to be important to winning or losing basketball games, is an insult, than Paxson has "insulted" the team as well.


Critique, insult, whatever. The point is, after getting completely dominated by the lowly Hawks, a game in which Eddy once again pulled his disappearing act, you pulled the one insignificant stat you could use to rag on the current Bulls team.


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Zeb said:


> Critique, insult, whatever. The point is, after getting completely dominated by the lowly Hawks, a game in which Eddy once again pulled his disappearing act, you pulled the one insignificant stat you could use to rag on the current Bulls team.



Actually Curry played exceedingly well. I happened to watch the debacle too. The Knicks started losing when their focus went away from Curry, for some strange reason, when he was absolutely having his way down low.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Zeb said:


> Critique, insult, whatever. The point is, after getting completely dominated by the lowly Hawks, a game in which Eddy once again pulled his disappearing act, you pulled the one insignificant stat you could use to rag on the current Bulls team.


You think getting to the line is an insignificant stat?

Seems to me that its one of the main problems with our current Bulls team.


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> You think getting to the line is an insignificant stat?
> 
> Seems to me that its one of the main problems with our current Bulls team.



I don't think it is about that stat K4E, I think it is about you pointing it out about a Knick game in which they got positively crushed. I see your point, if we had retained Curry he would be getting to the line for us in a major way and we didn't. Still, you got to understand that a lot of people here simply don't like Curry and will take you pointing out how many trips to the line he had and how bad the Bulls are at it as an "anti-Bull" statement rather than "honest analysis".


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The Superstation showed an interesting stat before the last Indy game- 

Through 39 games last season, the Bulls were averaging 22.4 FTA/game.

Through 39 games this season, the Bulls were averaging *22.4 FTA/game*.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I guess Larry Brown wanted to sabotage his own team by playing the dominant Curry only 22 minutes?

And how about some honest critiques of Curry?


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Jackie Butler picked up his 7th assist of the season last night. 

Eddy still has 6. 

But then again, centers don't need assists.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ace20004u said:


> Actually Curry played exceedingly well. I happened to watch the debacle too. The Knicks started losing when their focus went away from Curry, for some strange reason, when he was absolutely having his way down low.


By disappearing act, I meant his second-half one, not the entire game. I watched it as well, and he was dominating for the first quarter or so, getting all their bigs in foul trouble. Then.... :whoknows:


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> You think getting to the line is an insignificant stat?
> 
> Seems to me that its one of the main problems with our current Bulls team.


As ace explained, it was very insignificant in the context of that game. Do you think Knicks fans are comforted by the fact that Curry got to the line 12 times?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> The Superstation showed an interesting stat before the last Indy game-
> 
> Through 39 games last season, the Bulls were averaging 22.4 FTA/game.
> 
> Through 39 games this season, the Bulls were averaging *22.4 FTA/game*.



That is interesting.

So, does that mean you don't think we should do a better job in getting to the FT line?

Perhaps Paxson has nothing to worry about.


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Zeb said:


> By disappearing act, I meant his second-half one, not the entire game. I watched it as well, and he was dominating for the first quarter or so, getting all their bigs in foul trouble. Then.... :whoknows:



Well, if you have a big man in the post you have to feed him the ball or he won't score. They went away from that. And Butler had a solid game and it stole some time from Curry. I don't think Brown was trying to sit Curry so long but when a player liek Butler steps up and comes to play you milk it for all you can get.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Well that was ten minutes of my life I'll never get back. How about making it easy on me and everyone back off the attack mode?


My bad, *TB!* I owe you a beer next time I'm in Chicago.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Zeb said:


> As ace explained, it was very insignificant in the context of that game. Do you think Knicks fans are comforted by the fact that Curry got to the line 12 times?


I don't really care what the Knicks fans think, and its a good thing for the Bulls that the Knicks lost.

I just wish our team had a legit center.

And no, I don't think that getting to the line 12 times in 20 minutes is insignificant in the context of a basketball game.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> My bad, *TB!* I owe you a beer next time I'm in Chicago.


I think you owe me an apology.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> He composed a song of hatred about our starting center LAST SEASON!


True. I recall at the time that I called him out on it as tasteless and inappropriate....


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> My bad, *TB!* I owe you a beer next time I'm in Chicago.



Only TB moved to Florida, if I remember correctly.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> True. I recall at the time that I called him out on it as tasteless and inappropriate....


We AGREE!!!

:cheers:

Although I did find it amusing/scary that someone would create such a monstrosity.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> True. I recall at the time that I called him out on it as tasteless and inappropriate....


Yes, you did.

Of course, you also pointed out that about 99% of the lyrics I write are tasteless and inappropriate- which they are. :biggrin:


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I think you owe me an apology.


 good lord what a fuss! 

i feel like i owe everyone an apology for bumping this thread late last night! it was languishing on page 3. oh the horror. but it feels good when the knicks lose in such a woeful fashion, i can't lie. i was kind of loving that monotone larry brown postgame press conference. poor larry and his 10 million!!



again. apologies. 



:angel:


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



narek said:


> Only TB moved to Florida, if I remember correctly.


true

:sigh:


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



narek said:


> Only TB moved to Florida, if I remember correctly.


Excellent! Closer and better weather (when hurricane season is over!). Got a guest room?


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> But I feel there is a difference in my honest critiques of Paxson compared to what I've read here over the last couple of year about players like Jalen Rose, Jamal Crawford and Eddy Curry.


I'm not going to try and out-lawyer you. I'm simply saying there is no difference. You criticize Paxson because you think he's not what is best for the team and it would be better for the organization of he were gone.

That is called criticism, not hatred. And it parallels fan criticism of players that they don't feel help their team. Thats all I'm saying. 

There is nothing innately wrong with being dissatisfied with players on your team and advocating that they be jettisoned. I rooted for Jalen Rose every game at the beginning of the 2003-04 season. Then I'd root for him to be traded until the next tip-off because I considered him a detriment to the future of the team. There's nothing wrong with that. Much like there is nothing wrong with making that same argument about the coach, the gm, or the owner.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I just read this on another board, it is a Knicks fan's recap of what Woody Paige said this morning on Cold Pizza.
____________________________

Watching Cold Pizza- Woody is friendly with LB and knows some of his coaching friends. He said: 

1) The Knicks situation is one LB will walk away from- it looks like he is gonna resign 

2) LB is physically sick- he cannot walk around the sidelines as much; he may take an extended leave of absence and have surgery 

3) LB is caught in a real "beehive" situation with Zeke's probs and the team losing- mentally he is not there right now 

4) Most experts picked the Knicks to make the playoffs and LB was paid a ton of cash to coach only to call his team "Quitters" after last night's loss- he should return some of that loot if he walks away 

5) LB is not able to work with the roster and the counter-argument is that he is the highest paid coach in pro sports, so he should be able to do something with the team 

6) The Knicks are the worst team in the NBA right now because our team is losing alot more than they should be 

________________________


Woody is certainly a tool IMHO, but all of those statements certainly sound as if they could easily be 100% true.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> I'm not going to try and out-lawyer you. I'm simply saying there is no difference. You criticize Paxson because you think he's not what is best for the team and it would be better for the organization of he were gone.
> 
> That is called criticism, not hatred. And it parallels fan criticism of players that they don't feel help their team. Thats all I'm saying.
> 
> There is nothing innately wrong with being dissatisfied with players on your team and advocating that they be jettisoned. I rooted for Jalen Rose every game at the beginning of the 2003-04 season. Then I'd root for him to be traded until the next tip-off because I considered him a detriment to the future of the team. There's nothing wrong with that. Much like there is nothing wrong with making that same argument about the coach, the gm, or the owner.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Ron Cey again.

Maybe instead of writing a song, I should have started a "Trade Eddy Curry Club" in my signature?

Because apparently, criticizing Bulls players is *hatred*, but starting and/or joining a club that wants the Bulls' GM fired is just good, old-fashioned, honest, loving criticism.


----------



## Showtyme

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

How nice. We've established a free speech environment. :clap: Yes, as a matter of fact, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and biases.

Anyway. I'm just really psyched up because the Knicks pick is looking pretty high.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Showtyme said:


> How nice. We've established a free speech environment. :clap: Yes, as a matter of fact, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and biases.


I was just trying to make a point about the disparate characterization of identical types of speech.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

If this worthless mess constitutes "free speech" then that freedom is less worth protecting than I previously thought. How about you guys do everyone a favor and talk about something interesting?

Blech.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Pie sure is tasty.


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ViciousFlogging said:


> Pie sure is tasty.


mmmmm....pie


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Because apparently, criticizing Bulls players is *hatred*, but starting and/or joining a club that wants the Bulls' GM fired is just good, old-fashioned, honest, loving criticism.


No. Composing/releasing a song entitled "I HATE PLAYER XXXXX" when player XXXXX is a current Bull is hatred.

Its multiplied when player XXXXX is the leading scorer for the best Bulls team since the Jordan era.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> No. Composing/releasing a song entitled "I HATE PLAYER XXXXX" when player XXXXX is a current Bull is hatred.


I really don't see the difference between hatred in song or message board post form. Same thing.




> Its multiplied when player XXXXX is the leading scorer for the best Bulls team since the Jordan era.


Or when GM X is the architect of the best Bulls team since the Jordan era.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Pie!

Pie!

Pie!

Pie!

Pie!


Yes! I like pie!

Pie is good!

Who's with me?


----------



## STUCKEY!

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Pie!
> 
> Pie!
> 
> Pie!
> 
> Pie!
> 
> Pie!
> 
> 
> Yes! I like pie!
> 
> Pie is good!
> 
> Who's with me?


PIE!!!


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Pie!
> 
> Pie!
> 
> Pie!
> 
> Pie!
> 
> Pie!
> 
> 
> Yes! I like pie!
> 
> Pie is good!
> 
> Who's with me?


I like Phi, especially when dealing with conversations that go around in circles. But I'm really a fan of Boston Cream Pie and that doesn't make me a Boston Celtic fan.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The Knick is going into the toilet, thus improving our pick. 

The Bull has had a resurgence, spurred by Tyson waking up among other things.

I'm sorry for those people who can't find joy in our current success, or who must point out each little (tiny, really) success of players who are no longer with our team (seemingly of their own volition!). It makes little sense to me, but then, I've never been the brightest bulb in the chandalier. Still, in my ignorance, I pity those who can't enjoy the small successes. 



_For these poor souls, I light a candle......_


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Welcome to the pie meltdown thread.

Melted pies > frozen pies


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

*Wynn!* Care to join me for a slice of pie?


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> The Knick is going into the toilet, thus improving our pick.
> 
> The Bull has had a resurgence, spurred by Tyson waking up among other things.
> 
> I'm sorry for those people who can't find joy in our current success, or who must point out each little (tiny, really) success of players who are no longer with our team (seemingly of their own volition!). It makes little sense to me, but then, I've never been the brightest bulb in the chandalier. Still, in my ignorance, I pity those who can't enjoy the small successes.
> 
> 
> 
> _For these poor souls, I light a candle......_


Clearly you are missing the whole pie argument here Wynn.


----------



## TripleDouble

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

How apropos. The topic changer - pie - on this tedius thread is a non-terminating number.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TripleDouble said:


> How apropos. The topic changer, pie, on this tedius thread is a non-terminating number.


I also like a nice eclair...


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I'm trying to make an Eric Pie-tkowski joke here. Help me. 

:thinking:


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ShamBulls said:


> I'm trying to make an Eric Pie-tkowski joke here. Help me.
> 
> :thinking:


Too bad we don't have sound links in posts. With one of those fey little English accents, you could probably pull it off as funny.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I joined the "I like Pie" club because I like pie. But you guys are like trying to make me into some sort of pie junkie, like its the end all be all. I'm sick of it.

Cake is good. Tiramasu is even better. You mindless drones of the "Pie Youth" need to give it a rest. 

Fire pie. :curse:


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> Fire pie. :curse:


Why you hatin on Key Lime?


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ViciousFlogging said:


> Why you hatin on Key Lime?


Pie lover. I bet you think Pie has never done anything wrong. Has it VF? Has Pie ever made a mistake? Huh? Pie is perfect, I guess.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

If Key Lime is so good, how come no one orders it in New York?


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> Pie lover. I bet you think Pie has never done anything wrong. Has it VF? Has Pie ever made a mistake? Huh? Pie is perfect, I guess.


Pie rarely gets to the line...... No defense....... Can't rebound worth a flip..... Definitely too soft (and warm and gooey!).......


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> I joined the "I like Pie" club because I like pie. But you guys are like trying to make me into some sort of pie junkie, like its the end all be all. I'm sick of it.
> 
> Cake is good. Tiramasu is even better. You mindless drones of the "Pie Youth" need to give it a rest.
> 
> Fire pie. :curse:


Tiramasu is for poseurs...just like creme brulee.

give me a slice of warm cherry pie with a lattice top crust, and a scoop of high quality vanilla ice cream on the side.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> Pie lover. I bet you think Pie has never done anything wrong. Has it VF? Has Pie ever made a mistake? Huh? Pie is perfect, I guess.


hey I never said key lime didn't have its faults. It doesn't go very well with chocolate. It needs a little whipped cream to complement its deficiencies. But in the end it's a serviceable kind of pie that brings more to the table than it takes away. The restaurant manager would be best served to keep it on the menu for a long time if they want their menu to be well-rounded.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ViciousFlogging said:


> hey I never said key lime didn't have its faults. It doesn't go very well with chocolate. It needs a little whipped cream to complement its deficiencies. But in the end it's a serviceable kind of pie that brings more to the table than it takes away. The restaurant manager would be best served to keep it on the menu for a long time if they want their menu to be well-rounded.


Key lime pie is a great end to a spicy meal.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Key lime pie is a great end to a spicy meal.


ain't that the truth :cheers:


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ViciousFlogging said:


> hey I never said key lime didn't have its faults. It doesn't go very well with chocolate. It needs a little whipped cream to complement its deficiencies. But in the end it's a serviceable kind of pie that brings more to the table than it takes away. The restaurant manager would be best served to keep it on the menu for a long time if they want their menu to be well-rounded.


Who am I trying to kid. I ****ing love key lime pie. 

Ever make it at home? Its easy. But here's a couple of twists:

#1: Fold whip cream in with the eggs, condensed milk and lime juice. Then just pour it into a crust and refrigerate it. It make a light and fluffy version of this dessert. 

#2: Make it the regular way. Then make your whipped cream from scratch and, while whipping the cream and sugar together, sprinkle in a tablespoon of orange juice and some orange zest. It rocks.

I told you I can't front. I ****ing love key lime pie.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Personally, I take a good flan over pie any day.

Unless, of course, the pie is an empanada- preferably beef and cheese, but chicken is also good.

And after a spicy empanada, you need a slice of key lime pie instead of the flan that they serve in places with really good empanadas.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Not sure where this thread went, but the Knicks just gave up 130 points to the Lakers. 33 point blowout. Not looking good for those Knickerbockers. looking great for the Bulls.


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

How is Q.Woods playing (beyond the numbers)?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I am just completely shocked that there are some Bulls fans here who *still* think this Knicks team is going to all of a sudden turn things around and start winning this season.

Another huge game for Curry, 11 pts and 4 reb in 28 min vs All-World Chris Mihm. 

But he DID have *2 assists*, if he isn't careful he is going to break double-figures before the season is over. I just wonder if any Bulls center has registered 2 assists in a game this season, and how many minutes did it take?

If you think assists are an important statistic...


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> I am just completely shocked that there are some Bulls fans here who *still* think this Knicks team is going to all of a sudden turn things around and start winning this season.
> 
> Another huge game for Curry, 11 pts and 4 reb in 28 min vs All-World Chris Mihm.
> 
> But he DID have *2 assists*, if he isn't careful he is going to break double-figures before the season is over. I just wonder if any Bulls center has registered 2 assists in a game this season, and how many minutes did it take?
> 
> If you think assists are an important statistic...


The Crawford/Curry tandem hasn't panned out like Krause envisioned (somewhat ironically, Krause can watch his boys firsthand since he works for the Yankees now). And if you tossed Chandler's horrendous season on top of it, I'd rather not think about how bad we'd be relying on the "3 C's" to be our team of the future. Ugh.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The two best Cs led our team to a 47 win season last year.

Now we're.... worse.

And we only started looking decent again once the remaining C woke the hell up.



Krause really stuck his neck out there for Tyson Chandler. Let's hope for the Bulls sake he was not that far off. Chandler is one of Krause's guys.


----------



## chifaninca

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> The two best Cs led our team to a 47 win season last year.
> 
> Now we're.... worse.
> 
> And we only started looking decent again once the remaining C woke the hell up.
> 
> 
> 
> Krause really stuck his neck out there for Tyson Chandler. Let's hope for the Bulls sake he was not that far off. Chandler is one of Krause's guys.


At this point, Chandler has spent more time with Pax and his people than Krause's. Bottom line is he's one of the Bulls guys!


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



chifaninca said:


> At this point, Chandler has spent more time with Pax and his people than Krause's. Bottom line is he's one of the Bulls guys!


Yah he is.

It amazing how many people come out of the woodwork to bash him though when he struggles. The name Elton Brand usually comes up.

Paxson would have never traded Elton Brand for Tyson Chandler, IMO. Paxson would have a very hard time burning a #2 draft pick on an unproven, raw, high school player like Chandler as well, IMO.

Paxson resigned Chandler this last off-season. But, as he said in a recent radio interview, he “had” to do it. After all, he just finished trading all the other big men.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I'm actually coming around to Curry's game a lot more. And Crawford has been really good at times this year, but just when you think he is going to be consistent, he falls off the map. I never liked Crawford's game much. 

I don't know what is wrong with the Knicks. Larry Brown is losing those guys, and I'm not sure it isn't his own fault.


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I watched part of the knick game last night and JC looked as bad as i have ever seen him. He was 0 - 6 at one point in the game. Just awful. Kobe was just laughing at him and abusing him.

As for EC Mihm was totally outplaying him and we are talking Chris fing mihm here not exactly a superstar center. EC had zero rebounds in the first quarter, ZERO. Clyde Frazer was trying to be kind but even he said a few things like EC looks like he is just going throught the motions.

Right now the raptors look better to me than the knicks and i think the knicks are heading for the 3rd worst record in the NBA and with luck we can get a top 3 pick.

david


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



giusd said:


> I watched part of the knick game last night and JC looked as bad as i have ever seen him. He was 0 - 6 at one point in the game. Just awful. Kobe was just laughing at him and abusing him.
> 
> As for EC Mihm was totally outplaying him and we are talking Chris fing mihm here not exactly a superstar center. EC had zero rebounds in the first quarter, ZERO. *Clyde Frazer was trying to be kind but even he said a few things like EC looks like he is just going throught the motions.*
> 
> Right now the raptors look better to me than the knicks and i think the knicks are heading for the 3rd worst record in the NBA and with luck we can get a top 3 pick.
> 
> david


Clyde is just a hater, plain and simple, I can't believe he would say negative things about a Knick...

He's also a Jamal-hater, I don't know how many times last season I heard him saying that Jamal was a horrible defender.

I don't know how the Knicks put up with having such a blatant hater on their broadcast team.


----------



## L.O.B

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Yah he is.
> 
> It amazing how many people come out of the woodwork to bash him though when he struggles. The name Elton Brand usually comes up.
> 
> Paxson would have never traded Elton Brand for Tyson Chandler, IMO. Paxson would have a very hard time burning a #2 draft pick on an unproven, raw, high school player like Chandler as well, IMO.
> 
> Paxson resigned Chandler this last off-season. But, as he said in a recent radio interview, he “had” to do it. After all, he just finished trading all the other big men.


You bring up a great point k4e, they should of fired that worthless sack of donuts earlier and we could of really had a team. The thought of having a team composed of Brand, Deng, Gordon, Kirk and Duhon has me salivating. The hell with height, that team would kick some serious ***.


----------



## superdave

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Watched the Knicks/Lakers game last night. Brown has mailed it in, he won't be coaching in NY next season. Bynum looked great last night, kid went 4-4 against Curry (including a couple nasty dunks) and more importantly outhustled EC for a few boards. Heck even Mihm was taking it to EC last night too. The more I see of EC/AD the less I miss either of them.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



superdave said:


> Watched the Knicks/Lakers game last night. Brown has mailed it in, he won't be coaching in NY next season. Bynum looked great last night, kid went 4-4 against Curry (including a couple nasty dunks) and more importantly outhustled EC for a few boards. Heck even Mihm was taking it to EC last night too. The more I see of EC/AD the less I miss either of them.


But, but what will the Post do to fill it's back page without Larry to photograph during the winter?


----------



## YearofDaBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



superdave said:


> Watched the Knicks/Lakers game last night. Brown has mailed it in, he won't be coaching in NY next season. Bynum looked great last night, kid went 4-4 against Curry (including a couple nasty dunks) and more importantly outhustled EC for a few boards. Heck even Mihm was taking it to EC last night too. The more I see of EC/AD the less I miss either of them.


People seem to overvalue the worth of Crawford and Curry. Both of them don't get it and they might never "get it". AD is old as heck and to me at least wouldn't make too much of a diff for us. I hated to see Curry traded but I thought under the circumstances it was understandable. At the same time Pax's moves are starting to really look like they are going to pay off for us.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



YearofDaBulls said:


> At the same time Pax's moves are starting to really look like they are going to pay off for us.


How so?


----------



## YearofDaBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> How so?


We are looking to get a top 3 pick in this year's draft.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Plus, while in the short term, we are looking to replace the size we lost, in the long term we are free from the uncertainty presented by:

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baske...x0130,0,764883.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines



> ATLANTA -- With his 6-11, 285-pound bulk and his youthful athleticism, Eddy Curry looks the part of a dominant NBA center. That he hasn't shown signs of developing into one in his fifth season is what troubles Knicks coach Larry Brown and certainly was a factor in the Chicago Bulls' decision to trade him.
> 
> Anyone charting Curry's progress this season could have predicted five-point, five-rebound burnout in the Knicks' loss Saturday night in Philadelphia. He was coming off his best back-to-back scoring effort of the season, 44 total points in games against Sacramento and Orlando. It was the first time he topped the 40-point mark in a two-game set this season, and it was as though he had nothing left in the tank for the next night.
> 
> That's a problem in the NBA, where there is always a next night. In his past 18 games, Curry has hit the 20-point mark eight times, but never back-to-back.
> 
> But it wasn't the lack of scoring that bothered Brown so much as Curry's lack of will to battle 76ers center Samuel Dalembert, a rebounding and shot-blocking machine.
> 
> "My whole thing with him every night is I ask him to bring energy," Brown said of Curry. "I don't give a darn if he scores a basket. Just go after balls, block shots, play like Sammy.
> 
> "Without scoring, controlled the whole game. He had five blocks, but he had about 10 shots he made people change. He keeps people from going to the basket. That's what you would hope somebody with the athleticism of Eddy would do, and hopefully, he'll do that someday."
> 
> The 23-year-old Curry is an earnest player who accepts coaching and wants to do the right thing. The irregular heartbeat he suffered last season has not returned, but his conditioning is a question that has followed him throughout his career. Curry's 6.7 rebounding average is a career best and a sign that he's trying a little harder, but it's well below the expectations for him.
> 
> Like his coaches, Curry has no explanation for his up-and-down pattern this season. "It's just something I have to continue to work on," he said. "I've got to continue to try to be a better player every single day. Eventually I'll get it, and I'm going to help this team win games consistently. We're going to be a good team, and I'm going to be a good player."
> 
> The good news for the Knicks is that he's due for a strong effort tonight in Atlanta. The bad news is that his down cycle could kick in at home tomorrow night against Kobe Bryant's Lakers.
> 
> The problem is that the Knicks (14-28) need Curry to control the middle every night, even more so now with Stephon Marbury playing hurt with a sprained left shoulder. Marbury is a reluctant critic, but he said, "Right now, we have to find some consistency as far as who is going to go out and be our presence. We think that Eddy can definitely be our presence in the middle. It just wasn't there [in Philadelphia]. It's like that some nights."


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



YearofDaBulls said:


> We are looking to get a top 3 pick in this year's draft.


Yah, that could help.

How long until a guy like Aldridge becomes productive? Is he even a center?

I agree that we *should* have a nice infusion of talent this off-season. Let's hope Paxson can get it done. We've basically sacrificed an entire season for additional Cap Space and that pick. It better be worth it.

We're really "flexible" right now... lots of assets with which to work... let's hope Paxson does something with all this flexibility and assets.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

We are also "free" from trying to improve upon a 47 win, 3rd best record in the East, playoff run season.

That was quite a bind we were in last season. This year is much better.

Do we really thing there won't be frustrations and inconsistency from Joel Przybilla and our lotto picks?


----------



## YearofDaBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Yah, that could help.
> 
> How long until a guy like Aldridge becomes productive? Is he even a center?
> 
> I agree that we *should* have a nice infusion of talent this off-season. Let's hope Paxson can get it done. We've basically sacrificed an entire season for additional Cap Space and that pick. It better be worth it.
> 
> We're really "flexible" right now... lots of assets with which to work... let's hope Paxson does something with all this flexibility and assets.


Yes, and with that cap space we can go ahead and sign a center or at the very least improve the team.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> We are also "free" from trying to improve upon a 47 win, 3rd best record in the East, playoff run season.
> 
> That was quite a bind we were in last season. This year is much better.



What exactly gives you such confidence that we would be even one game improved over our current record this year if we had retained Eddy Curry? It seems to be the core belief of 99% of your posting, and I have yet to comprehend it, given that he has not proven to be a win/loss factor for the Knicks.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...an31,1,6535178.story?coll=cs-basketball-print



> Stop us if this sounds familiar: The Knicks don't like Eddy Curry's inconsistency--he looks dominant one night and lost the next.
> 
> He's averaging 14.8 points and 6.7 rebounds, but New York's winning percentage with him and without him is identical. The Knicks are 14-28 (.333). In the nine games Curry has missed due to injuries they're 3-6 (.333).
> 
> 
> They're 11-22 in games he has played (yep, .333). So basically it doesn't matter if the center who GM Isiah Thomas said comes along once every 15-20 years plays or not.
> 
> Curry vows to get better.
> 
> "It's something I've got to continue to work on," he told the Newark Star-Ledger. "Eventually I'm going to get it. I'm going to help this team win consistently, and I'm going to be a good player."


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> What exactly gives you such confidence that we would be even one game improved over our current record this year if we had retained Eddy Curry? It seems to be the core belief of 99% of your posting, and I have yet to comprehend it, given that he has not proven to be a win/loss factor for the Knicks.
> 
> http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...an31,1,6535178.story?coll=cs-basketball-print



Why is there any reason to believe that our team from last season, if injury free, would not be able to perform at a similar level this season? If anything, given the maturation of our young players, we should have even been better. I don't see how that isn't a reasonable expectation. The East isn't all that much better, which was an incorrect assumption made by many this pre-season.

The "Why isn't NY winning?" argument carries no weight with me. There are plenty of very good basketball players that are on losing teams. Most of our FA targets for this off-season are on losing teams. Do you not think they will help us?


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Why is there any reason to believe that our team from last season, if injury free, would not be able to perform at a similar level this season?


1. We don't have the same advantages viv-a-vis other teams in the conference we did last season

2. Players this year have been slow to return to the same intensity they played with last year, and aren't responding as well to Skiles' tactics.

3. We've had guys who played well last year regress in the first part of this season (Chandler for instance).

"would not be able to perform" is one question. Fact is, they have not performed, and that problem seems pretty distinct from the absence of Eddy Curry. I think if the rest of the roster DID play with the same intensity and nothing to lose abandonment they did last year, we'd be on a solid pace for the 5 slot in the playoffs.

Yes, good players play on bad teams. But I think the evidence shows that Eddy may help win you some on his good nights, he may help lose you some on his bad nights, and overall it seems to work out as a wash. See the .333 .333 .333 comments above.

Hey, you have it in your head that everything would be alright if we only had Eddy Curry, and I'm not about to change your mind.

Every once in a while I just have to ask and see if I can understand it, especially since the potic comes up with some, you know, regularity.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> But I think the evidence shows that Eddy may help win you some on his good nights, he may help lose you some on his bad nights, and overall it seems to work out as a wash.


The same argument can be applied to nearly every young player on our current team.

They are still assets, and, as we saw last season, you can win with players like that.




As for losing advantages (#1), yah, I agree we lost a lot of those (via trade, IMO).


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Hey, if Eddy is just another asset, just like any other on our team last year (and I think that is a reasonable characterization) then what is REALLY difficult to understand is the continued high level of agita over his departure.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Hey, if Eddy is just another asset, just like any other on our team last year (and I think that is a reasonable characterization) then what is REALLY difficult to understand is the continued high level of agita over his departure.


I think it has something to do with being 4 games under .500, out of the playoffs and in a desperate search for a big man.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I see the Pie Uprising was shortlived.

I think we'd be better with Curry. Yet, I don't think his departure spells doom for the franchise, and at this moment the #1 and 07 pick swap Paxson extracted from Isiah look like they might end up being very nice tools to solidify the roster at a much reduced price. I was disappointed with the way Curry's situation shook out this summer, but relieved that we got anything useful back in the trade once it became obvious we were going to deal him. Is that reasonable?


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I think it has something to do with being 4 games under .500, out of the playoffs and in a desperate search for a big man.


And I hate to run around in circles, but there is no reason to believe our record would be significantly better or worse if the man was still here.

The team in general simply hasn't played to the same level it did in the second half of last year.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> And I hate to run around in circles, but there is no reason to believe our record would be significantly better or worse if the man was still here.


I beg to differ, given our success with AD and Curry last season.

The reasonable assumption is that a team with mostly the same players will perform around the same, if not better given maturation IMO.

It’s surprising when a good team, which we were last season, simply falls apart with the same personnel the following season, if injuries are not a factor.

Assuming a 50 win season and a playoff series win would not have been out of line, IMO, and that would have been a nice step to take.



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> The team in general simply hasn't played to the same level it did in the second half of last year.


That team does not exist anymore. We lost our starting 4 and starting 5.

On games when they both played... they consumed 54.2 of the 96 minutes available at the 4 and 5.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I like this nice summary from KnickerBlogger:



> The Knicks can’t blame the players for their woes. This season’s 14-30 record isn’t the fault of Stephon Marbury. You just have to look at the three games the Knicks played without him for proof of that. It’s not Jamal Crawford or Nate Robinson’s fault for being unable to play the point in Marbury’s stead, because they’re not made for that role. *It’s not Eddy Curry’s fault for not being able to play defense, rebound, or cut down his turnovers, because that’s what he was before he got here.* It’s not Jerome James’ fault for having a few good playoff games. Even if you disagree and would like to blame the roster, they’re not going to be the fall guy, because you can’t trade any of them. No one is going to take Jerome James for 5 years. *No one is going to want Eddy Curry, who can’t manage to play more than 27 minutes a game, despite his backups being Davis, James, and Butler.* Nobody is going to want Quentin Richardson, who’s so detached from his former self I swear he’s suffering from basketball amnesia. Somebody might want Marbury, but that loser tag that’s been slapped on him since New Jersey makes his value lower with each loss.


http://www.knickerblogger.net/

Now Knick fans don't think Eddy Curry is any good. Is Knickerblogger just a schill for Pax, or is he unable to recognize talent when he sees it?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Now Knick fans don't think Eddy Curry is any good. Is Knickerblogger just a schill for Pax, or is he unable to recognize talent when he sees it?


Paxson said he was planning on resigning Curry before the heart issue.

Paxson was visibly angry when "forced" to trade him.


Do you think Paxson feels that Curry is "no good?"


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Paxson said he was planning on resigning Curry before the heart issue.
> 
> Paxson was visibly angry when "forced" to trade him.
> 
> 
> Do you think Paxson feels that Curry is "no good?"


Now you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You've claimed Pax didn't want Big Ed, now you're claiming he did (though in quotes). You can't do that and be taken seriously. Ultimately I think the knickblogger post was too harsh on Big Ed...


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Paxson said he was planning on resigning Curry before the heart issue.
> 
> Paxson was visibly angry when "forced" to trade him.
> 
> Do you think Paxson feels that Curry is "no good?"


Paxson is not the one making obsessive posts about Curry multiple times a day, every day.

Besides, you fancy yourself smarter than Paxson, why use his opinion to defend your own?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> Now you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You've claimed Pax didn't want Big Ed, now you're claiming he did (though in quotes). You can't do that and be taken seriously. Ultimately I think the knickblogger post was too harsh on Big Ed...


Paxson said he wanted Big Ed. That's all I'm saying. Do you disagree Paxson said this?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Paxson is not the one making obsessive posts about Curry multiple times a day, every day.
> 
> Besides, you fancy yourself smarter than Paxson, why use his opinion to defend your own?



You didn't answer the question.

Do you think Paxson thinks Curry is "no good?"


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> You didn't answer the question.
> 
> Do you think Paxson thinks Curry is "no good?"


I'll answer your question after you respond to mine.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Based on Paxson's words, I agree with him. Curry was more than worthy of being resigned without the heart issue. I agree with Paxson's stated opinon. I disagree on the risk of signing him with the "heart issue." but that's another story. He's clearly healthy.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Paxson said he wanted Big Ed. That's all I'm saying. Do you disagree Paxson said this?


No, but you've argued against his sincerity. If you believe he was sincere, then use this statement to defend Ed's worth. If you believe this statement is insincere, then it is of no value in your defense of Ed. I'm just asking for a consistent strategy on your part.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> No, but you've argued against his sincerity. If you believe he was sincere, then use this statement to defend Ed's worth. If you believe this statement is insincere, then it is of no value in your defense of Ed. I'm just asking for a consistent strategy on your part.


If you think Curry is "no good", you disagree with Paxson, unless you think he was not being sincere.

I think Paxson was resigned to the fate of signing Curry before the heart issue. Paxson realized Curry's worth. Heck, Curry was the leading scorer on the only Paxson GMed team to accomplish anything of note so far.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> If you think Curry is "no good", you disagree with Paxson, unless you think he was not being sincere.
> 
> I think Paxson was resigned to the fate of signing Curry before the heart issue. Paxson realized Curry's worth. Heck, Curry was the leading scorer on the only Paxson GMed team to accomplish anything of note so far.


So why is knickerblogger, presumably an avid fan of the Knicks, providing such a negative critique of Curry? Can he not properly evaluate his own team?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

We are a grand total of *2 wins* behind last year's pace, I just cannot believe that anyone would think that we have had some kind of massive drop-off without Eddy (and AD). 

2 fewer wins. Big effing deal.

Can we finish out the season 25-13 like we did last season? I certainly think so, after all when we made our big run last season we did it without Eddy for the last 13 games.

In our 25-13 finish, we went 16-9 (.640) with Eddy and 9-4 (.692) without him.

Our defense and rebounding have each improved quite a bit over the last month or so, as long as we keep that up we shouldn't have any trouble moving up to the 6th seed IMHO.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Paxson said he wanted Big Ed. That's all I'm saying. Do you disagree Paxson said this?


I disagreed. As I have said since the trade, the one big personnel issue where I disagreed with Paxson was the notion that Curry was important. 

The heart issue saved Paxson from himself, in my opinion.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> So why is knickerblogger, presumably an avid fan of the Knicks, providing such a negative critique of Curry? Can he not properly evaluate his own team?


Actually, he said you can't blame the players.

Curry is not a perfect basketball player, I agree. Few, if any, are. Al Harringotn isn't. Neither is the Vanilla Gorilla. Neither is Ben Gordon…. And so on and so on….


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> I disagreed. As I have said since the trade, the one big personnel issue where I disagreed with Paxson was the notion that Curry was important.
> 
> The heart issue saved Paxson from himself, in my opinion.


Do you agree that we miss Curry and AD this season?


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Curry is not a perfect basketball player, I agree. Few, if any, are.


But few are as maddingly and inexplicably inconsistent as Curry. That was my rap on him then, and now.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> But few are as maddingly and inexplicably inconsistent as Curry. That was my rap on him then, and now.


I'd be curious to know what Curry's variance of production is.

I'd take the time to figure it out and show people... but we'd have to agree on some type of metric, which would never happen.  See, its all about the intangibles dammit!  Seems like a lot of work for something that will be dismissed out of hand.

That, and we'd have to agree that high variance in production is a horrible thing. I'm not sure how much it hurts a basketball team. I know it hurts factories and operations systems like that.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Actually, he said you can't blame the players.


And that's exactly what he meant.



> Curry is not a perfect basketball player, I agree. Few, if any, are. Al Harringotn isn't. Neither is the Vanilla Gorilla. Neither is Ben Gordon…. And so on and so on….


I agree. Al Harrington and Przybilla will do just fine replacing Curry. Now, if you could just devote as much time to hyping them up as you do with Curry, we wouldn't have a problem.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> I agree. Al Harrington and Przybilla will do just fine replacing Curry. Now, if you could just devote as much time to hyping them up as you do with Curry, we wouldn't have a problem.


We'll see. Harrington is a jump shooting tweener, so its going to be hard for him to give you anything similar to what Curry does, good or bad. 

Meanwhile, we're 4 games under .500 and 3.5 point underdogs to the Oklahoma City Hornets. Last year we were the 3rd best team in the east.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> We'll see. Harrington is a jump shooting tweener, so its going to be hard for him to give you anything similar to what Curry does, good or bad.
> 
> Meanwhile, we're 4 games under .500 and 3.5 point underdogs to the Oklahoma City Hornets. Last year we were the 3rd best team in the east.


Not on February 1st, but keep spinnin'


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Meanwhile, we're 4 games under .500 and 3.5 point underdogs to the Oklahoma City Hornets. Last year we were the 3rd best team in the east.


Let's try to stay on topic please. This thread is about the Knicks.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Do you agree that we miss Curry and AD this season?


Absolutely.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Zeb said:


> Not on February 1st, but keep spinnin'


Some think we can still hit 47 wins. That would be 27-11 for the remainder of the year. That's a 71% winning percentage.

Do you think its probable for this team to perform like one of the best teams in the NBA for the 2nd half of the season? ( > 70% winning percentage)

Not possible. Probable.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Let's try to stay on topic please. This thread is about the Knicks.


You are right. Here I go:

The Knicks got their asses absolutely whipped the last two games and Curry played like dog ****.

I don't really have a whole lot more to add about the Knicks except to reiterate that I despise their GM.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> You are right. Here I go:
> 
> The Knicks got their asses absolutely whipped the last two games and Curry played like dog ****.
> 
> I don't really have a whole lot more to add about the Knicks except to reiterate that I despise their GM.


Are you kidding me? Curry got to the line 18 times! Sure, he only made 11, but still!


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

From a RealGM poster who spoke with Knicks' front-office people:

===========================

i asked what she thought of curry and she responded to the effect that he's dealing with his condition. Which reminded me that curry does in fact have a heart condition. Just because doctors cleared him to play, he is on medications and being monitored, it's not like they deemed he had no "condition". She didn't say it, but perhaps 36 minute games just isn't in Curry's near future, and maybe the reason he looses it in the second half is medical fatigue, for lack of a better word. 

===============================


http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=7518480&highlight=#7518480


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> If you think Curry is "no good", you disagree with Paxson, unless you think he was not being sincere.
> 
> I think Paxson was resigned to the fate of signing Curry before the heart issue. Paxson realized Curry's worth. Heck, Curry was the leading scorer on the only Paxson GMed team to accomplish anything of note so far.


I don't understand the "no good" in quotes. Who has said Ed is "no good"? What GM would ever say that? Nor do I see why disagreeing with Pax would be such a bad thing. I agreed that in order to sign Ed we needed to limit the years on his contract and sign him for less than he was apparently willing to accept from the Bull. I was on board as wanting Ed resigned, as was Pax. 

You are the one who has accused Pax of insincerity.

Given that Pax has only had two complete seasons as a GM, I think "the only Paxson GMed team to accomplish anything of note so far" is a bit ridiculous. Especially given what he was handed his first season.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> From a RealGM poster who spoke with *Knicks' front-office people*:
> 
> ===========================
> 
> i asked what she thought of curry and she responded to the effect that he's dealing with his condition. Which reminded me that curry does in fact have a heart condition. Just because doctors cleared him to play, he is on medications and being monitored, it's not like they deemed he had no "condition". She didn't say it, but perhaps 36 minute games just isn't in Curry's near future, and maybe the reason he looses it in the second half is medical fatigue, for lack of a better word.
> 
> ===============================
> 
> 
> http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=7518480&highlight=#7518480


Was Anucha prettier in person?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> From a RealGM poster who spoke with Knicks' front-office people:
> 
> ===========================
> 
> i asked what she thought of curry and she responded to the effect that he's dealing with his condition. Which reminded me that curry does in fact have a heart condition. Just because doctors cleared him to play, he is on medications and being monitored, it's not like they deemed he had no "condition". *She didn't say it, but* perhaps 36 minute games just isn't in Curry's near future, and maybe the reason he looses it in the second half is medical fatigue, for lack of a better word.
> 
> ===============================
> 
> 
> http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=7518480&highlight=#7518480


"She didn't say it"

Gotcha.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> I don't understand the "no good" in quotes. Who has said Ed is "no good"?





Frankensteiner said:


> Now Knick fans don't think Eddy Curry is any good. Is Knickerblogger just a schill for Pax, or is he unable to recognize talent when he sees it?








> Given that Pax has only had two complete seasons as a GM, I think "the only Paxson GMed team to accomplish anything of note so far" is a bit ridiculous. Especially given what he was handed his first season.


OK. We'll check back at the end of season 3. 

Do you think we'll hit 47 wins?

Paxson thought enough of what he was handed his first season to guarantee playoffs.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Zeb said:


> Are you kidding me? Curry got to the line 18 times! Sure, he only made 11, but still!


http://www.rawbw.com/~deano/articles/20040601_roboscout.htm


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> OK. We'll check back at the end of season 3.
> 
> Do you think we'll hit 47 wins?


Don't see 47 wins, but I predicted a step back this year.... didn't predict we'de be quite so bad here at the beginning, either.

I DO think, though, that we will finish the season as a "winning, play-off bound" team. That seemed to carry a lot of weight with your Knick and Raptor teams last season... got a lot of play in your sig, if I recall. I don't think we'll be "division leading", though.

Drat!


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> I DO think, though, that we will finish the season as a "winning, play-off bound" team. I don't think we'll be "division leading", though.


Yah, having a winning record, winning your division and making the playoffs does carry weight with me. Crazy thing.

Those three things should carry a lot more weight than outperforming the Knick, if you are a Bulls fan.


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Yah, having a winning record, winning your division and making the playoffs does carry weight with me. Crazy thing.
> 
> Those three things should carry a lot more weight than outperforming the Knick, if you are a Bulls fan.


No it doesn't. You clearly stated about four pages back that the Knicks winning percentage means nothing to you. That there are plenty of good players on bad teams. I can only interpret that as winning games is not all-important.

If Eddy Curry was such a difference making center on a 47 win team as you so like to put it, why do you discount the Knicks, actually worse winning percentage, with him playing on the KNicks?


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> http://www.rawbw.com/~deano/articles/20040601_roboscout.htm


http://www.nba.com/knicks/schedule/


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



fl_flash said:


> If Eddy Curry was such a difference making center on a 47 win team as you so like to put it, why do you discount the Knicks, actually worse winning percentage, with him playing on the KNicks?


How do you discount the Bulls being dramatically worse?

I think the Knicks would be worse off with Jerome James taking Curry's minutes.


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

You cant compare the EC of last season to the EC of this season. He has a brand new big 60 million dollar contact and i think we can all agree he does not look as hungry as he did last year. I watch quite a few knickis games since i live on the east coast and EC does not look that interested in basketball this year. Last year after his slow start EC really looked like he was playing hard and really enjoying himself. This year he just looks disinterested. So i dont think these observations about the bulls playing worst with EC. The fact is if the EC of last year came back the knicks would be a better team. But if EC was on the bulls this year and played like he has for the knicks i dont think the bulls record would be much different. 

Paxson was worried about giving EC a big contact and for good reason. EC has played awful this year and even worse he looks dis-interested. Playing like he has doesnt really help any team.

david


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The Curry trade is difficult to evaluate. But if the Bulls end up with a top 4 pick in next year's draft, I have to say that the trade was a good one -- regardless of other considerations. There are too many question marks about Curry. If one can get a draft choice equal or better than the one used to obtain him in the first place, it was a good trade. 

Right now, it looks like we will get a #4 or better choice in next year's draft from NY. So the trade was a good one in my opinion. Kudos to Paxson.


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



McBulls said:


> The Curry trade is difficult to evaluate. But if the Bulls end up with a top 4 pick in next year's draft, I have to say that the trade was a good one -- regardless of other considerations. There are too many question marks about Curry. If one can get a draft choice equal or better than the one used to obtain him in the first place, it was a good trade.
> 
> Right now, it looks like we will get a #4 or better choice in next year's draft from NY. So the trade was a good one in my opinion. Kudos to Paxson.



I think it depends on who you GET with that draft choice. One year can be a weak draft and another a strong draft. For instance would trading Fizer who was the #4 pick in 00 for Bosh who was the #4 pick in 03 still be a good deal? I think you take my point. There isn't a center better than Eddy in this draft.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



giusd said:


> Playing like he has doesnt really help any team.


Except the Bulls. :wink:


----------



## The ROY

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Larry the target of players' shots

And inside the locker room, where confusion and frustration reign, the players are fed up with Brown beating them down privately and publicly, according to several team sources. Following Monday's loss to Atlanta, Brown accused the players of quitting. Two days earlier, he was highly critical of Eddy Curry's performance in a loss to Philadelphia.

That's why few players were sorry to see the coach ejected with 5:46 remaining in the third quarter Tuesday night. According to a source, as Brown walked to the locker room, at least two players half-jokingly commented that the team was free to play how it wanted. 

WOW


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

ha. i just finished reading that in the daily news. here is the link.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/387873p-329005c.html


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



The ROY said:


> According to a source, as Brown walked to the locker room, at least two players half-jokingly commented that the team was free to play how it wanted.


----------



## Rhyder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



The ROY said:


> Larry the target of players' shots
> 
> And inside the locker room, where confusion and frustration reign, the players are fed up with Brown beating them down privately and publicly, according to several team sources. Following Monday's loss to Atlanta, Brown accused the players of quitting. Two days earlier, he was highly critical of Eddy Curry's performance in a loss to Philadelphia.
> 
> That's why few players were sorry to see the coach ejected with 5:46 remaining in the third quarter Tuesday night. According to a source, as Brown walked to the locker room, at least two players half-jokingly commented that the team was free to play how it wanted.
> 
> WOW


Keep it up this year and next NY.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

You know what that team needs is a good dose of...you guessed it...jib.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

If Brown quits, does he still get his money from the contract? The Pistons bought him out, and I didn't understand that. If he wanted to quit, why didn't they just let him? Did Larry have something on them? I did read somewhere that the Pistons wouldn't persue any tampering charges against Cleveland because they didnt' want the NBA looking to closely at them re the whole hiring Brown from the Pacers. Doesn't Zeke get a huge salary from the Knicks, too?


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Go Knicks!! :rock:


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Looks like LB has lost control of this team. In spite of his past record, I'm betting he doesn't manage to get them back, and quits before the start of next season (with a large buy-out, no doubt). 

There is really no way for the Knicks to trade themselves out of the corner they have painted themselves into. Their best bet is the tried and true sign and trade free agent market. 

LB's gargantuan contract can't be helping in that regard. Even the Knicks must have a limit to the amount of money they are willing to spend on a losing team that next year will have even more trouble filling seats in MSG, and stopping declining radio & TV ratings.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Brown fined $20,000 by the NBA: http://www.newsday.com/sports/baske...0203,0,6029644.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines


> Knicks coach Larry Brown was fined $20,000 Thursday by the NBA for failing to leave the court in a timely manner after he was ejected from New York's 130-97 loss to the Lakers.
> 
> Brown was thrown out for arguing with referee Steve Javie in the third quarter Tuesday night after New York was called for a flagrant foul and a technical within a 2-minute span.
> 
> Brown was ejected during a timeout, picking up two quick technicals. He then walked onto the floor right up to Javie to continue the argument before being pulled away.
> 
> "I didn't curse him," Brown said Wednesday, before the fine was handed down. "I hadn't talked to him the whole game. Obviously he thought I went over the line and that's his prerogative. Those things happen. It's the first game I got kicked out."


Interesting - Pax's fine was $15,000.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Anyone else getting the sense that Larry Brown steps down soon (maybe end of the season) and Isiah Thomas takes over as coach? These are Isiah's boys, afterall. And remember that he coached for the Pacers once upon a time.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I don't see Larry Brown quitting his "dream job" unless his health is bad. If you were Dolan, would you hitch your wagon to the vision of Larry Brown or Isiah Thomas?

The much deserved and long overdue change I see coming is that Zeke gets canned and this whole stinkin' mess is turned over to Larry Brown. The roster gets a massive overhaul and they start over and try to build a team around Larry's vision - which has a winning track record - instead of Isiah's vision and skills - which has a track record of, at best, underachievement (Indiana) and, at worst, abject failure (New York).

Making Isiah coach is a terrible option. He's a bad coach. His Pacers' teams totally underachieved.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



narek said:


> Brown fined $20,000 by the NBA: http://www.newsday.com/sports/baske...0203,0,6029644.story?coll=ny-sports-headlines
> 
> 
> Interesting - Pax's fine was $15,000.


Everything's more expensive in New York. Ever try to buy a burger in Manhattan?


----------



## PC Load Letter

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but here's a very interesting(and entertaining) article from the NY Daily News on the state of the Knicks:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/387732p-329005c.html


Gotta love it! :laugh:


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

poor larry, just trying to coach. 

there's some more on this today in the daily news. 

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/388098p-329302c.html



> I laugh when I hear that some players might be tuning out Larry," said one rival coach. "Chances are those players don't know what it takes to win, have never known, don't want to know and don't want to win as badly as Larry."


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

ouch! can't say I disagree with the rival coach's assessment. I don't think Larry walks on water the way some portray him, but when you put his track record up against anyone on the Knicks' roster or Isiah's post-playing career, Larry is the guy who ought to have the most credibility by about 2,000 furlongs.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

How many players on the Knicks have been the leading scorer for a team that made the playoffs?

There are 3 at first glance. 2 that actually play.

Not sure what the definition of "knowing how to win" is..... but one would think that being the leading scorer on a winning team that made the playoffs would help put you in that category.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

yeah, when I think of consummate winners, the first two names that pop into my head are Stephon Marbury and Eddy Curry. :biggrin:


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ViciousFlogging said:


> yeah, when I think of consummate winners, the first two names that pop into my head are Stephon Marbury and Eddy Curry. :biggrin:


Well, yah, they are not CONSUMMATE winners.... but they have won.

Its just a silly expression, IMO, "not knowing how to win." 

I don't think the same would be said about Ben Gordon, who has not even been a starter on a winning team.

The Knicks have players that have been main guys on winning teams.

If the Bulls are stocked with guys with "big game experience" that "know how to win," then why aren't we winning?


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I don't think the same would be said about Ben Gordon, who has not even been a starter on a winning team.
> 
> The Knicks have players that have been main guys on winning teams.
> 
> If the Bulls are stocked with guys with "big game experience" that "know how to win," then why aren't we winning?


If Ben Gordon or other Bulls were tuning out a Hall of Fame coach who won a championship only 2 seasons ago, they'd be painted with the same brush. Heck, if they were clearly tuning out Skiles, whose track record is...um...less distinguished than Larry's, they'd probably get heat for that too.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Well, yah, they are not CONSUMMATE winners.... but they have won.
> 
> Its just a silly expression, IMO, "not knowing how to win."
> 
> I don't think the same would be said about Ben Gordon, *who has not even been a starter on a winning team.*
> 
> The Knicks have players that have been main guys on winning teams.
> 
> If the Bulls are stocked with guys with "big game experience" that "know how to win," then why aren't we winning?


Seriously, you can't be this absurd, you have to be doing it on purpose.

First of all, how did you drag the Bulls into this, that article had nothing to do with them. You just wanted to make an "honest critique," I'm sure. 

Secondly, Ben Gordon is in his SECOND year, and you're already trying to use him in this argument (even if you added in a disclaimer)? He played more minutes and scored more points than Mr. "leading scorer on a winning team" Curry, who by the way was only the leading scorer in per game average by a whopping 0.4 on a team known for sharing the ball. Not to mention Gordon single-handedly won several games last year in the 4th Quarter while Mr. "leading scorer on a winning team" Curry was doing his disappearing act.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Zeb said:


> He played more minutes and scored more points than Mr. "leading scorer on a winning team" Curry,


Curry was the leading scorer by the way that title is designated. 



> who by the way was only the leading scorer in per game average by a whopping 0.4 on a team known for sharing the ball. Not to mention Gordon single-handedly won several games last year in the 4th Quarter while Mr. "leading scorer on a winning team" Curry was doing his disappearing act.


No player single handedly wins a game. Now *that's* absurd. I wish Gordon would single-handedly win us a few more games. Then we may have a winning record. 

Now that Gordon's production is distributed not so heavily in the 4th quarter and the Bulls are losing, Gordon's "clutch" factor is being exposed, IMO. No more SportsCenter magic moments. Gordon' overall production is also down, sadly for the Bulls.

Is Gordon really this incredible "clutch" player? He sure isn't this season.

http://www.82games.com/0506/05CHI4E.HTM
vs
http://www.82games.com/0506/05CHI4A.HTM

He's a less effective scorer in "clutch" time.





But, once again, if the Bulls are filled with players that “know how to win,” why are we not winning?


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Curry was the leading scorer by the way that title is designated.


And yet it ain't helping the Knicks, regardless of how many times you bring it up. Hmmm....



> No player single handedly wins a game. Now *that's* absurd. I wish Gordon would single-handedly win us a few more games. Then we may have a winning record.


Yes, because of course we all know I meant that literally - Gordon went 1 on 5, it was amazing



> Now that Gordon's production is distributed not so heavily in the 4th quarter and the Bulls are losing, Gordon's "clutch" factor is being exposed, IMO. No more SportsCenter magic moments. Gordon' overall production is also down, sadly for the Bulls.
> 
> Is Gordon really this incredible "clutch" player? He sure isn't this season.
> 
> http://www.82games.com/0506/05CHI4E.HTM
> vs
> http://www.82games.com/0506/05CHI4A.HTM
> 
> He's a less effective scorer in "clutch" time.


Admittedly, he's nowhere near the clutch he was last year. In fact, I get tired of hearing about the 4th Quarter being Gordon time until he actually carries it over to this year..... BUT there's a history there. At least he HAS been clutch, and quite recently. Has Curry?



> But, once again, if the Bulls are filled with players that “know how to win,” why are we not winning?


I know you're enjoying the losing and all, but its not quite the doom and gloom you paint it out to be. They're 20-25 coming off two tough road losses, with Chandler FINALLY starting to play very well (as much as it pains you). We are decidedly small and Curry has not been replaced yet, but we knew going in this year would be a small step back. I relalize you're the type of fan that's only truly happy when things aren't going well giving you reason to whine and complain (I can't even imagine what you were like several years ago) but like it or not, this team is headed in the right direction.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Zeb said:


> And yet it ain't helping the Knicks, regardless of how many times you bring it up. Hmmm....


TMAC isn't helping the Rockets?
Chris Bosh isn't helping the Raptors?
Al Harrington isn’t' helping the Hawks?
Joel Przybilla isn't helping the Blazers?



> Admittedly, he's nowhere near the clutch he was last year. In fact, I get tired of hearing about the 4th Quarter being Gordon time until he actually carries it over to this year..... BUT there's a history there. At least he HAS been clutch, and quite recently. Has Curry?


Clutch is overrated and unpredictable, IMO. Just look at Ben Gordon.



> I know you're enjoying the losing and all, but its not quite the doom and gloom you paint it out to be. They're 20-25 coming off two tough road losses, with Chandler FINALLY starting to play very well (as much as it pains you). We are decidedly small and Curry has not been replaced yet, but we knew going in this year would be a small step back. I relalize you're the type of fan that's only truly happy when things aren't going well giving you reason to whine and complain (I can't even imagine what you were like several years ago) but like it or not, this team is headed in the right direction.


Jeez, that's a lot of venom and personal stuff. Grrrrrr. Don’t know why you feel the need to do that, but I’ll abstain.

Last year our winning % was .5732. This year we’re at .4444. If we keep “going in the right direction” next season, we’ll be at .3148 (26 wins).


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Jeez, that's a lot of venom and personal stuff. Grrrrrr. Don’t know why you feel the need to do that, but I’ll abstain.


:laugh: So predictable, I knew you'd write that, as you have several times before. See, that's where you get to make it appear as if you're the bigger man, the better person. There was no venom, I didn't call you names, I just pointed out the obvious.

You're not alone, there are many fans just like you in all sports. I say embrace it.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Zeb said:


> :laugh: So predictable, I knew you'd write that, as you have several times before. See, that's where you get to make it appear as if you're the bigger man, the better person. There was no venom, I didn't call you names, I just pointed out the obvious.


Honestly, I think the more time you spend talking about the Bulls and Knicks, and the less time you spend talking about other posters or the intents of other posters, the better off we'll be. 

You're dead wrong, BTW.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Honestly, I think the more time you spend talking about the Bulls and Knicks, and the less time you spend talking about other posters or the intents of other posters, the better off we'll be.
> 
> You're dead wrong, BTW.


Seeing as you're finding ways of criticizing the Bulls when they weren't the topic to begin with - i.e. this story about the Knicks not knowing how to win and the other day about the Bulls not getting to the line - I'd say your posting habits are relevant. If you could stay on topic, it wouldn't be pointed out. *OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown* - Not find any and all reasons to rag on the Bulls.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Well, I still think the Knicks can get that 4 seed. Just too much talent.


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*











"I, like, big, pies and I cannot lie
You other brothers can't deny......."


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Zeb said:


> Seeing as you're finding ways of criticizing the Bulls when they weren't the topic to begin with - i.e. this story about the Knicks not knowing how to win and the other day about the Bulls not getting to the line - I'd say your posting habits are relevant. If you could stay on topic, it wouldn't be pointed out. *OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown* Not find any and all reasons to defend the Knicks and rag on the Bulls.


Ah yes, but its a Bulls message board. 

Still, there is a clear difference between talking about basketball and talking about other posters. 

You were not talking about my posting habits, BTW, you were claiming that I'm happy when the Bulls are losing. Big difference.



> I know you're enjoying the losing and all





> with Chandler FINALLY starting to play very well (as much as it pains you).





> I relalize you're the type of fan that's only truly happy when things aren't going well giving you reason to whine and complain (I can't even imagine what you were like several years ago)


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Ah yes, but its a Bulls message board.
> 
> Still, there is a clear difference between talking about basketball and talking about other posters.
> 
> You were not talking about my posting habits, BTW, you were claiming that I'm happy when the Bulls are losing. Big difference.


I made that deduction based on your posts. You're happy to be miserable. After reading your posts for the last six months, I don't see how anyone could come to any other conclusion. Anyways, back on topic to the wonderful Knicks and hapless Bulls.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Zeb said:


> I made that deduction based on your posts. You're happy to be miserable. After reading your posts for the last six months, I don't see how anyone could come to any other conclusion. Anyways, back on topic to the wonderful Knicks and hapless Bulls.


And once again, a post about another poster, not basketball.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> And once again, another post about another poster, not basketball.


Please refrain from posting about my posting. :biggrin:


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> And once again, a post about another poster, not basketball.


And the dozens of posts about a song I wrote were all about basketball, right? :banana:


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

And how far will the Knicks be melting down now that they have added the final of the Three Amigos? 

If LB wasnt' such a world-class douche, you would almost have to feel sorry for him. He does have a proven track record of winning, and now Chester trades away the one player on the roster who plays Brown's way ("the right way").


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> And the dozens of posts about a song I wrote were all about basketball, right? :banana:


Song?

Does not ring a bell.

Refresh my memory. What was the title of the song?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

With another Knicks loss and a Hawks win over the Magic, the Knicks now have the 2nd-worst record in the league.

But at least Eddy got 11 FTA.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> *Song?
> 
> Does not ring a bell.*
> 
> Refresh my memory. What was the title of the song?


Liar.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Charley Rosen of FoxSports.com says the Knicks are the NBA's worst team.

Some of my favorite excerpts:



> The Knicks are by far the worst passing/ball-handling outfit in the NBA. By halftime, they'd committed 12 turnovers that directly led to 20 of the Raptors' points. Jamal Crawford and Qyntel Woods led the miscue parade with four each, and the Knicks finished with 19 overall.
> 
> They began the game so pass-conscious that they ignored several open shots and instead tried to force the ball into closed passing-lanes. Larry Brown's game plan was to plug the ball into the pivot — variously manned by Eddy Curry, Maurice Taylor, Channing Frye, and Jackie Butler (who received the ball inside only once and proceeded to get whistled for a charge). In their half-court sets, the Knicks did manage to feed the low post a total of 32 times, a strategy that generated 26 points. Given that NBA teams usually average 1.1 points per possession, this interior production wasn't nearly up to snuff.
> 
> Indeed, early in the second quarter the players were so frustrated and confused that there ensued a great deal of pointing, directing, and commanding as everybody tried to figure out who was supposed to be where. *By the end of the same quarter, the Knicks' offense had degenerated into one-on-one play — mostly by Nate Robinson and Crawford.* Only a quartet of treys by Quentin Richardson kept the New Yorkers in the game.





> Boxing out seemed to be a skill with which none of the Knicks' bigs were familiar. The Raptors came into the game as the worst-rated rebounding team in the league, yet they garnered 15 offensive rebounds (to the Knicks' six), and out-rebounded the visitors 43-34.
> 
> In addition to their general incompetence, the Knicks committed a series of plays that were either extremely embarrassing or just plain dumb:
> 
> Curry worked the right box against a tight double-team and, as he tossed up a hard-angled layup, he shouted, "And one!" Unfortunately, he wasn't fouled and his shot failed to touch the rim.
> 
> Curry rotated to deny the basket to a driving Mike James, but he took his stand directly under the basket and was in no position to challenge the shot.
> 
> Curry was guarding Chris Bosh two steps above the foul line. For some reason, the big man leaned forward and reached for the ball while it was still in Bosh's hands. In a flash, Bosh drove to the hoop and the best Curry could do was foul him from behind.


http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/5305784

What a core of talent.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Curry worked the right box against a tight double-team and, as he tossed up a hard-angled layup, he shouted, "And one!" Unfortunately, he wasn't fouled and his shot failed to touch the rim.


:laugh: That one's sig-worthy. :biggrin:


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

So much hate for our leading scorer from last year. The winning year.

Hate on.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> So much hate for our leading scorer from last year. The winning year.
> 
> Hate on.


 :banana:


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

17 points, 5 rebounds and 5 blocks from Curry tonight.

How many 5 block games does any Bull have this season?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Dang, that Charley Rosen sure does hate Eddy.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I know it shifts from article to article, based on what he writes, but isn't Rosen usually ridiculed for being an idiot around here?

I don't read his stuff, so I offer no opinion.


----------



## TripleDouble

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> So much hate for our leading scorer from last year. The winning year.
> 
> Hate on.


I see it as a bit inconsistant that you give Curry credit for the Bulls success last year but refuse to acknowledge that he may be part of the problem with a terrible team this year.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> So much hate for our leading scorer from last year. The winning year.
> 
> Hate on.


So much hate for the GM of our best team since the Jordan years. 

Hate on.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TripleDouble said:


> I see it as a bit inconsistant that you give Curry credit for the Bulls success last year but refuse to acknowledge that he may be part of the problem with a terrible team this year.


Good player on bad team.

Curry playing at center >>>>> J James playing at center.

Its like saying Channing Frye is "part of the problem" with the Knicks. If you want to think that, then fine, but I'd sure as hell like him on the Bulls.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Bullsville, I think the Knicks are 14-31 now. You need to update your sig.


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Well, with the Knicks loss and the Hawks win, the Knicks are now tied with the Hawks for the second worst record in the league. The Knicks have fallen two games behind the Raptors.

Gotta luv it!


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> 17 points, 5 rebounds and 5 blocks from Curry tonight.
> 
> How many 5 block games does any Bull have this season?


in a loss? none. 

KK4E this is about LB and you are suppose to be a bulls fan arent you? What does EC 5 blocks has to do with LB meltdown? 

how many other teams have a player get 5 blocks in a game in a loss?

The real question to ask is how many games did eddy get 5 blocks for us?

But then all of this will be off-topic. This is a LB thread. Yes I saw your arguement about it being a Bulls board, if you want to really use that arguement then we should not even talk about Rose, Curry and JC at all in here period. 

Lets all try and stay on topic shall we? LB meltdown has nothing to do with the way the bulls players are playing.


----------



## TripleDouble

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Good player on bad team.
> 
> Curry playing at center >>>>> J James playing at center.
> 
> Its like saying Channing Frye is "part of the problem" with the Knicks. If you want to think that, then fine, but I'd sure as hell like him on the Bulls.


You think Crawford is a good player too. 

Which players are responsible for the Knicks losing season? The bad ones that hardly play? Or is it the championship caliber coach?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TripleDouble said:


> You think Crawford is a good player too.


I think Curry is much more valuable than Crawford. I think Crawford is an average player.



> Which players are responsible for the Knicks losing season? The bad ones that hardly play? Or is it the championship caliber coach?


By your definition Brand and Artest were "responsible" for the Bulls losing ways. Were they not valuable assets and productive players?


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truebluefan said:


> Lets all try and stay on topic shall we? LB meltdown has nothing to do with the way the bulls players are playing.


This thread only exists because the Bulls made controversial trades with the Knicks.

You're ignoring or missing the real intent of this thread.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> Bullsville, I think the Knicks are 14-31 now. You need to update your sig.


Sorry, I'm on it right now.


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I guess the Knicks losing isnt news anymore.

Rose-JC-EC started for them, they lost by 4 against Houston.


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

EC-JR-Crawford
55 points
16 assists
15 rebounds
8 TO
(Rose/Crawford 40 of those points and 9 of the rebounds)

How about Rose, though? 11 assists, 5 rebounds, 6-6 FT in 41 minutes, and TMac shot just 9-26.

The flipside: Rose shot only 4-12 for 16 points, 4 TO and 5 PF.


----------



## remlover

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Rose always plays the team game for a short time with his new team then reverts back to old Jalen.


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Honestly, I think the more time you spend talking about the Bulls and Knicks, and the less time you spend talking about other posters or the intents of other posters, the better off we'll be.
> 
> You're dead wrong, BTW.


Your post here proves that you do the exact same thing. No ones seems to see that except myself, so no harm done I guess.


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Look the knicks are 14 and 32 and two games behind the raptors. Right now the knicks have the 3rd worst record in the nba and they have a pretty rough schedule the next month or so. The raptors seem to be playing much better bball lately and looked very good against the clippers today. My guess is the raptors get a post JRose bounce and play solid the rest of the year with their all cancer teammate gone and the knicks are a lock for the 3rd wosrt record.

And when you consider a team starting JC, Curry, and Rose we are talking about one of the softest, worst defending teams in the NBA. And as for todays game rose and curry had ten TO, TEN. And when you add in curry's missed FTs you know why they lost. My guess is Rose is the last piece that results in a total LB and knicks meltdown. Enough for Atl to pass the knicks and finish ahead of them in the standingsi think not but still i think we could easily have a top 3 or 4 pick and the 11 pick in the draft and be 20 million under the cap. While it kills me that we aren't going to the playoffs this year i think the team is well placed to make a trade or two in the off season and sign a solid free agent.

david


----------



## rlucas4257

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Its been a disaster. I thought Brown would have turned this talented (yes, they are talented) bunch into winners but it isnt working. They might get it together next year but they need to find players who dont need the ball to contribute. Every player on their roster is a ball dominator. If I were Isiah I would deal both Nate and Marbury this summer and rebuild the backcourt. Thats where their trouble is. Rose would be a backup 3 with Ariza/Lee starting. Frye and Curry work for me at the power spots. But its the dribble culture that are killing the Knicks. Their D is bad but it really is the lack of chemistry on offense that kills them. They dont play too strengths at all.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



DaBullz said:


> EC-JR-Crawford
> 55 points
> 16 assists
> 15 rebounds
> 8 TO
> (Rose/Crawford 40 of those points and 9 of the rebounds)
> 
> How about Rose, though? 11 assists, 5 rebounds, 6-6 FT in 41 minutes, and TMac shot just 9-26.
> 
> The flipside: Rose shot only 4-12 for 16 points, 4 TO and 5 PF.


What's sad is that the Knicks need to rely on these 3 guys to play major minutes. These are same 3 guys who played key roles in a 30-win season a few years ago. Curry's good enough to be a starter, but Rose and Crawford should both be backups on almost any winning team, playing about 20-25 minutes a night.

Rlucas is right. There's only 1 basketball, and nearly all the Knicks (Marbury, JC, Rose, Curry, Quentin, Frye, Nate, Mo Taylor) need the ball in their hands to make things happen.


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Marbury didn't play, and he's clearly a guy most of the plays are designed around. Rose's first game with the team was a squeaker, only free throws made it as big as a 4 point win. Maybe Marbury would have made a pretty big difference. At least he should.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

This thread was almost gone from the first page. :naughty: 

Anyway, Knicks lose again 82-85 to the Clippers. I followed the last few seconds of the game on gamecast and the Knicks were inbounding the ball with 2.2 seconds left in the game, down by only 1 point. Gamecast seems to indicate there was a 5 second violation on the inbound. :laugh: 

Rose had a strong game with 23 points, but apparently the Knicks aren't even good enough to benefit from the post-trade Jalen Rose bump.

With Atlanta's win, Knicks are in sole possession of the 2nd worst record in the league. Charlotte is gaining ground after 2 consecutive wins. Stay tuned.

Only good news for the Knicks is they are a mere 14 games behind the #4 seed. It's still possible.


----------



## RoRo

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Anyway, Knicks lose again 82-85 to the Clippers. I followed the last few seconds of the game on gamecast and the Knicks were inbounding the ball with 2.2 seconds left in the game, down by only 1 point. Gamecast seems to indicate there was a 5 second violation on the inbound. :laugh:


i was listening to the broadcast in the background. announcers said, looked like jalen turned his head to the ref and called for a timeout. the refs said the 5 sec count came before jalen's action. 

couldn't see it myself, just repeating the play-by-play comments.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

It was Jalen on the inbounds, and the 5-second call was quite generous, seemed like 7 in the replay. Regardless, they didn't even have a TO so it would have been a tech.


----------



## PowerWoofer

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

As I wrote in my signature, the Knicks' loss is a Bulls' gain. We are gaining more and more leverage in the draft every time NY steps onto the court. They can't seem to put a good basketball team on the floor, given they have a bunch of rooks and guys that are only in it for the green. So I guess that this draft pick of the Knicks could end up landing us a good player. Depends which pick we get though. It'll all depend on how bad the Knicks continue to play, and how lucky the Bulls are.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Looking at the box score of tonite's game, it seems the Knicks rookies have been relegated to the back bench -- which is undoubtedly where Larry Brown will keep them.

IT probably approves playing gizzeled veterans like Rose for 40+ minutes in the vain hope that he will look less like a fool for trading an unprotected 1st round draft choice. I can hear the boo's at the draft now.


----------



## Blueoak

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

A quote from Antonio Davis about the Knicks

"I hope those guys can keep it together mentally and physically and get through any challenges they have," Davis said. "I don't really want to talk about anything specific, but I think they have their work cut out for them. Hopefully, the can stay professional and get through it."


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

God I love rooting against the Knicks. 

Burn, Burn, BURN!!! :biggrin:


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

C Chris Kaman tonight: 10-16, 22 pts, 11 rbs.

C Chris Kaman season: 4.4-8.4, 11 pts, 9.4 rbs.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Okay, I'm not really a Jamal/Jalen/Eddy hater, and I more or less agree with the lukewarm viewpoints on their game that they're reasonably talented players who do some things well, and some things not well, and in the right situations, and with their head in the game, they can be pretty useful guys. However, I was browsing the RealGM boards, and this made me laugh pretty hard:





Post Game Discussion: 


Jalen: Coach...as the new player coach liason, I think I should tell you the guys feel the plays should be simplified. 

Larry: What? I just did! 

Jalen: No no no, I know you THINK you did, but you're still using big words like "cutting" and "bounce pass" and "thinking". You gotta make it easier for us, man. 

Larry: Alright...well, help me out, give me an example. 

Jalen: Like, try this play. Eddy runs to middle of the floor near the net thing. Jamal throws the ball really hard at Eddy. Eddy catches the ball and throws it through the net thing really hard. 

Larry: Wait wait wait, what about passing angles and reacting to the defense? What about movement on offense and making sure the ball gets passed around and getting good looks? 

Jalen: No no no! You're doing it again, using big words! Make it easy, EASY! 

Larry: Fine! Then, what about that last play tonight? How could I possibly simplify THAT? 

Jalen: Look, it was a decent play, I ain't knockin' it. JC cuts outside and Q acts as the second option if his defender tries to trap. But no one understood it man!! You shoulda said, ait, Jamal, you run really fast in a big circle while chanting one mississipi, two mississipi...and stop when you hit four. Q, run away and hide, make sure the dude in the different color shirt follows you. Eddy, don't touch ANYTHING. 

Larry: Ok, I follow, we'll try that the next game.


----------



## L.O.B

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> C Chris Kaman tonight: 10-16, 22 pts, 11 rbs.
> 
> C Chris Kaman season: 4.4-8.4, 11 pts, 9.4 rbs.


Abused by a player that stole Hulk Hogan's hair.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



L.O.B said:


> Abused by a player that stole Hulk Hogan's hair.


Relative size/weight ratio of tonight's starting Centers in the Clippers/Knicks game:


----------



## RoRo

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Relative size/weight ratio of tonight's starting Centers in the Clippers/Knicks game:


that is lol. 

to be fair, breen mentioned curry lost 30 pounds since the beginning of the year. foul trouble kept him in and out of the game. when he was in the game he was agressive and dunking on kaman a couple times.

kaman looks pretty solid though, he's very good at the things a center is supposed to be good at. now that brand has slimmed down and does his damage from a bigger range the two are a good tandem.

and in watching the nbatv highlights, defintely jalen looked like he turned to the ref to ask for a timeout (when ny had none to call).


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The knicks are just one game ahead of the bobcats for the worst record in the NBA and based on what i say last night i think it is a real possibility that they could really have the worst record. With rose, JC, and EC this team may be one of the worst defensive teams in the last few years. And they just went through a easy part of their schedule and the next month it is rough. Look for TOTAL LB and team meltdown. This team is on track to win around 25 games and that should be good for the 1st or 2nd pick in the draft.

david


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



rosenthall said:


> Post Game Discussion:
> 
> 
> Jalen: Coach...as the new player coach liason, I think I should tell you the guys feel the plays should be simplified.
> 
> Larry: What? I just did!
> 
> Jalen: No no no, I know you THINK you did, but you're still using big words like "cutting" and "bounce pass" and "thinking". You gotta make it easier for us, man.
> 
> Larry: Alright...well, help me out, give me an example.
> 
> Jalen: Like, try this play. Eddy runs to middle of the floor near the net thing. Jamal throws the ball really hard at Eddy. Eddy catches the ball and throws it through the net thing really hard.
> 
> Larry: Wait wait wait, what about passing angles and reacting to the defense? What about movement on offense and making sure the ball gets passed around and getting good looks?
> 
> Jalen: No no no! You're doing it again, using big words! Make it easy, EASY!
> 
> Larry: Fine! Then, what about that last play tonight? How could I possibly simplify THAT?
> 
> Jalen: Look, it was a decent play, I ain't knockin' it. JC cuts outside and Q acts as the second option if his defender tries to trap. But no one understood it man!! You shoulda said, ait, Jamal, you run really fast in a big circle while chanting one mississipi, two mississipi...and stop when you hit four. Q, run away and hide, make sure the dude in the different color shirt follows you. Eddy, don't touch ANYTHING.
> 
> Larry: Ok, I follow, we'll try that the next game.



:laugh: Nice.

Follow up conversation:

Jalen: Hey, Larry, one more thing. Can you talk to MSG security for me? There are some guys chanting in section 102 every single game, and I can't make out a word of what there's saying. And they keep holding up a big capital letter -- (I'm pretty sure its a "D" -- I remember seeing those on my Michigan report cards) and then they hold up like a white picket gate or something. What's up with that? Its really distracting, and they keep doing it while I'm trying to catch my breath and I'm thinking about what shot I'll be taking when the guys in the different color shirts are done having their turn with the ball.

Larry: Um, Jalen yeah. I've been meaning to talk to you about that...


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> C Chris Kaman tonight: 10-16, 22 pts, 11 rbs.
> 
> C Chris Kaman season: 4.4-8.4, 11 pts, 9.4 rbs.




At least 12 and 7 of that came in the first half, when Eddy was out with foul trouble.

Although it was Chris Kaman who schooled Eddy into giving up 2 fouls in 69 seconds.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ShamBulls said:


> At least 12 and 7 of that came in the first half, when Eddy was out with foul trouble.
> 
> Although it was Chris Kaman who schooled Eddy into giving up 2 fouls in 69 seconds.





> Asked if he had been counting off the seconds in his head along with the referee, Rose said, "Yes, he was counting also. I heard him say 'one-one-thousand,' but I think he forgot the other four."
> 
> Before all that, Curry let a vital defensive rebound slip through his fingers, giving Cassell the opportunity for his second killer 3. Too soft again.
> 
> In 24 minutes, Curry, who stands 6-11 and 285 pounds, failed to grab a single defensive rebound. How can that be?
> 
> The Knicks led by seven midway through the fourth quarter, but couldn't close out the win. They don't know how to win. They're too soft.
> 
> After Rose's turnover, Cutino Mobley hit two free throws for the final score.
> 
> When Curry fumbled away that crucial rebound, Brown called a timeout; as the Knicks approached the bench, a frustrated Richardson told Curry, "You gotta get that ball."
> 
> But Curry couldn't. Just the latest example of the Knicks being too soft.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/61562.htm


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I didn't watch the second half, just the first.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Before all that, Curry let a vital defensive rebound slip through his fingers, giving Cassell the opportunity for his second killer 3. Too soft again.
> 
> In 24 minutes, Curry, who stands 6-11 and 285 pounds, failed to grab a single defensive rebound. How can that be?...
> 
> ...When Curry fumbled away that crucial rebound, Brown called a timeout; as the Knicks approached the bench, a frustrated Richardson told Curry, "You gotta get that ball."
> 
> But Curry couldn't. Just the latest example of the Knicks being too soft.


In other words: "Jump?"


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*












> Jalen Rose arrived in town just a few days ago and like anyone new to the area he experienced that New York moment when the hustle and bustle of the big city overwhelms you.
> 
> To some, it's learning the subway or knowing what places to avoid at night. In Rose's case, it was the confusion of trying to throw an entry pass to a teammate within five seconds.
> 
> "You have two options," Rose said following the Knicks' stunning 85-82 loss to the Clippers last night at the Garden. "Throw the ball away or hold onto it as long as you can until someone makes himself available."
> 
> Rose chose the latter and was called for a five-second violation with 2.2 seconds remaining and the Knicks trailing by one. It was a shocking display of brain lock for a veteran player who was brought here to provide sound leadership and decision-making.
> 
> *Instead, Rose essentially took a train to Flatbush and ended up in Riverdale.*
> 
> "I didn't want to throw the ball away," Rose said after the Knicks lost for the sixth straight time. "That's not the move."



http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/389553p-330506c.html



lol.


----------



## L.O.B

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I had heard that Rose tried to call a non available time out, shouldn't he of learned this lesson in college?


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Brown took a not-so-subtle jab at Stephon Marbury after a reporter told Brown that Marbury didn't understand why the Knicks coach said that wins and losses do not matter at this point.
> 
> "He only went to Georgia Tech for a year," Brown said of Marbury, "and that's an engineering school."


Larry is killing me.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/389547p-330508c.html



> The league source said Thomas would not have drafted Robinson at 21 had he known Brown would end up his coach.
> 
> Brown doesn't believe there's an in-house point guard to develop. He said yesterday he doesn't project Robinson as a PG down the road, though he played at times there last night. Brown also feels Jamal Crawford isn't a floor general.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/61559.htm

Maybe we should offer them Duhon for their other draft picks this season.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Steve Kerr wrote about the whole mess:



> Since Thomas took over the Knicks in December of 2003, none of his moves have tied together. There is no plan and no format. The addition of Rose comes seventh months after the deal that brought Quentin Richardson from Phoenix. That followed the deal that brought Jamal Crawford from Chicago.
> 
> All told, New York now has three shot-happy swingmen who each command a huge salary. And they play next to two shot-happy point guards – Stephon Marbury and Nate Robinson – who are better served playing the two-guard position.
> 
> This philosophy of throwing talent together and hoping it works out is apparent on the entire roster. Why sign Jerome James to a big deal and then trade for Eddy Curry? Why trade for Malik Rose and Maurice Taylor when you already have several undersized power forwards on your team? (James, Malik Rose and Taylor rarely play.) And why bring Qyntel Woods aboard when you're trying to develop David Lee and Trevor Ariza? You can't play three young players at the same position at the same time.


more at: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=sk-notebook020706&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Last week the Daily News had a story on Thomas and the CBA and talked extensively with the former owners of La Crosse, WI CBA team (they don't hold a high opinion of Zeke). It was strange reading quotes from someone I've met on a couple of occassions. Alas, we never talked basketball, just car loans.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Interesting that Kerr feels that the Knicks have talented players on the roster. Its pretty clear that the Bulls need an infusion of talent, especially at center.

The Trailblazers made it to the Western Conference Finals and was a few seconds from going to the finals. Hardly a failed team. Let's hope Paxson can get us anywhere close to that.



Scoop Jackson was on ESPN Radio 1000 last night talking Bulls/Knicks.
He said that the main reason behind the Bulls struggles this season was the Curry trade. 
He claimed that opposing team tell him they simply guard the perimeter, since there is no real threat of the Bulls doing anything inside on offense. Claims that Chandler is being played out of position. He also claimed that Skiles is getting the most out of the roster. Not much more he can do with it.


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Interesting that Kerr feels that the Knicks have talented players on the roster. Its pretty clear that the Bulls need an infusion of talent, especially at center.




I don't see the relevance here.

Oh, wait.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Interesting that Kerr feels that the Knicks have talented players on the roster.


Why? I don't think anyone would disagree with that, not now, nor from the seasons beginning. The problem is that the talent is uneven; the roster has way too much of certain skills, and a serious deficit of others.



> Its pretty clear that the Bulls need an infusion of talent, especially at center.


It's equally clear that an infusion of talent at center, unless it's Tim Duncan or _maybe_ Elton Brand, is not going to turn this team into one of the leagues best. In other words, the Bulls are not the Pistons just waiting for Rasheed Wallace to become available. So I think it's better to say that theres a general need for talent on the Bulls, particularly so at center, but also so at other points.



> Scoop Jackson was on ESPN Radio 1000 last night talking Bulls/Knicks.
> He said that the main reason behind the Bulls struggles this season was the Curry trade.
> He claimed that opposing team tell him they simply guard the perimeter, since there is no real threat of the Bulls doing anything inside on offense. Claims that Chandler is being played out of position. He also claimed that Skiles is getting the most out of the roster. Not much more he can do with it.


He's a guy with an opinion, no different than you.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ShamBulls said:


> I don't see the relevance here.
> 
> Oh, wait.



Yup, and I fell for it.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> Why? I don't think anyone would disagree with that, not now, nor from the seasons beginning. The problem is that the talent is uneven; the roster has way too much of certain skills, and a serious deficit of others.


we agree!




> It's equally clear that an infusion of talent at center, unless it's Tim Duncan or _maybe_ Elton Brand, is not going to turn this team into one of the leagues best.


I disagree. Last year we had Curry and AD in Songo's and Sweetney's place and we won 47 games and had the 3rd best record in the east. And we were young w/ upside. Upward track. The east is not "better" this year.




> He's a guy with an opinion, no different than you.


Yah, but the interesting thing is his inside Scoop. The other NBA teams telling him about the lack to need to defend our post "attack" is telling.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Sorry, I'm on it right now.


14-33, try to keep up. I know its hard.

Anyway, the only purely good thing about the Bulls season so far is how bad the Knicks suck. I've kind find some good on the team in any season, and this is no exception. But the Knicks' failure is by far the bright spot. That kinda sucks.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I disagree. Last year we had Curry and AD in Songo's and Sweetney's place and we won 47 games and had the 3rd best record in the east. And we were young w/ upside. Upward track. The east is not "better" this year.



Curry and AD were not the difference between this years team and last years. If that were the case, the Knicks would have been a better team...especially with a "better" coach, "better" GM, and better PG.

The loss of size is part of it...but thats not all of it. Last years team overachieved in a lot of ways too. And I wonder sometimes now if they're still overachieving.

Back to the thread though: The Knicks suck. Curry sucks. Paxson is a better GM than Thomas. Jamal is still highly incomplete, and Ben has made more progress from his rookie to sophmore campaign than Jamal has made his entire career.

And now AD seems to indicate that the entire thing is threatning to come flying apart. Top six pick baby! :clap:


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Yah, but the interesting thing is his inside Scoop. The other NBA teams telling him about the lack to need to defend our post "attack" is telling.


Its as telling as it is obvious to anyone watching the games. We start O at center. We don't have a consistent low post threat unless Sweetney is earning his minutes. 

The Bulls lack a consistent low post threat. Springfield is the capital of Illinois. The Knicks are 14-33. These things are not in dispute. 

Scoop might as well "reveal" that opponent's don't fear Tyson Chandler's 3-point shot.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

It is kind of strange. 

We're back to needing high lotto picks to stock our team with the necessary talent.

But, at least the Bulls don't have to be brutal to get that pick. We can just be bad and hard-working.... but not awful... and we still get a chance at a nice pick.

I'd rather be a good team, like last season, but if we're back to lotto mode, then its slightly better this way.

The sad thing is that we're getting close to the wins and losses not mattering much anymore... other than for draft position. Those last few games I go to at the end of the season will be meaningless again. The playoffs were fun last season.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> The Bulls lack a consistent low post threat. Springfield is the capital of Illinois. The Knicks are 14-33. These things are not in dispute.
> 
> Scoop might as well "reveal" that opponent's don't fear Tyson Chandler's 3-point shot.



True, but this was a hotly contested topic during the start of this season.

There was a lot of "unbridled love" being thrown around.

I do agree with you though. Its very clear that’s one of the main things we’re missing.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Amid the wreckage of this Celtics season, Paul Pierce has found something positive to salvage. The captain noted the absence of finger-pointing in the locker room.
> 
> The Celtics (18-31) have not gone the way of the Knicks, whose players and coach have publicly called each other out. The closest they came was coach Doc Rivers blaming the bench for Monday night's loss to the Heat.
> 
> With the Celtics mired in a six-game losing streak -- they're 1-6 since the trade with Minnesota -- you would expect just a little frustration to leak out. But it hasn't happened. Not yet.
> 
> ''You see on most of the teams that go through these types of struggles there's a lot of arguing, a lot of finger-pointing, a lot of things said in the media that maybe they don't mean," said Pierce. ''But this team, with the kind of character guys that we've got, we remain positive for the most part. We don't get into that kind of stuff.


http://www.boston.com/sports/basketball/celtics/articles/2006/02/08/silence_not_golden_for_celtics/


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> True, but this was a hotly contested topic during the start of this season.
> 
> There was a lot of "unbridled love" being thrown around.
> 
> I do agree with you though. Its very clear that’s what we’re missing.


Its clear to everyone. We need better bigs. We're too far into the season now and we've seen too much to deny it. I don't think anyone is actually disputing that anymore.

But since this thread is about the Knicks maybe we should end the digression. The Eddy Curry thread is only a bump away if you want to talk about him.


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> The sad thing is that we're getting close to the wins and losses not mattering much anymore...



We're 9th in the East. If you want to use that as a reason to look down and not up, then that's up to you. You would be daft to, though.


----------



## TripleDouble

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> It is kind of strange.
> 
> We're back to needing high lotto picks to stock our team with the necessary talent.
> 
> But, at least the Bulls don't have to be brutal to get that pick. We can just be bad and hard-working.... but not awful... and we still get a chance at a nice pick.
> 
> I'd rather be a good team, like last season, but if we're back to lotto mode, then its slightly better this way.
> 
> The sad thing is that we're getting close to the wins and losses not mattering much anymore... other than for draft position. Those last few games I go to at the end of the season will be meaningless again. The playoffs were fun last season.


And what does this have to do with the Knicks?


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> After Antonio Davis finished his first practice as a Raptor on Tuesday, he had some parting words for those who run his former team, the Knicks.
> 
> "Larry and Isiah, they need to get on the same page," Davis said of Coach Larry Brown and Isiah Thomas, the Knicks' president. "Is the team going younger or older? What are they doing? Where's the team going?"
> 
> Davis was speaking publicly for the first time since Thomas traded him to the Raptors on Friday for the 33-year-old small forward Jalen Rose and for what will probably be a mid-first-round draft pick.
> 
> Davis, a 37-year-old forward, said the Knicks' organization was "a mess."
> --
> Davis said he liked what he had seen from the Raptors in recent weeks. Toronto started the season 1-15, but the Raptors have gone 16-16 since then.
> 
> "I feel it's a lot better," he said. "Obviously, this is a young team trying to get somewhere and trying to be competitive each and every night."
> 
> Hinting at his unhappiness with the Knicks, Davis said: "I was telling the guys, *this was the first time I've got to run up and down and enjoy myself in a long time. It was nice to see some fresh faces and see guys who really cared about playing and listening to their coach, trying to do everything they can to help each other and to win basketball games*."


:jawdrop:


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TripleDouble said:


> And what does this have to do with the Knicks?


Wasn't I clearly referring to the situation of us owning the Knicks draft pick?


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> :jawdrop:



Whats ironic is he said very similar things when he was traded to the Knicks about "enjoying basketball and playing with the youngsters"


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

GB, when you look Isiah's roster of "unwanteds" is it surprising that AD would say this? That is part of the beauty of Isiah's moves, everyone can see how ****ty they are except him. 

I didn't think the Knicks would be good this year, but even I didn't expect this mess. I love it.


----------



## TripleDouble

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

...


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ace20004u said:


> Whats ironic is he said very similar things when he was traded to the Knicks about "enjoying basketball and playing with the youngsters"




AD has also said the coach and GM aren't on the same page, and that the organization is a mess. He didn't say that about his former team when he was traded to the Knicks.


Obviously, things soured. That locker room is toxic now.


----------



## L.O.B

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I heard a NFL gm state that when running a team you must pick a lane. It doesn't look like Isiah is doing a very good job picking a lane. How does Larry Brown get quoted in the papers one day about those not commited to playing both sides of the ball will be moved, then they go out and trade for Rose? 
The talent in New York doesn't know how to win and aren't listening to their Hall of Fame coach but then again Thomas isn't listening to Brown either. 

I really hope the Knicks horrible season continues and hope that it gets worse.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ShamBulls said:


> We're 9th in the East. If you want to use that as a reason to look down and not up, then that's up to you. You would be daft to, though.


We'll see. I was hopeful we had a chance at the 8 seed, but the way these losses are piling up, its looking grim. We need a last-season style turnaround or a team to fall to us. 

I don't think its "daft" to think the deck is a little stacked against us making the playoffs this year at this point.

The punch to the stomach that was the circus trip over the years apparently has been moved to February.


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I don't think its "daft" to think the deck is a little stacked against us making the playoffs this year at this point.




That is not what I said.


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> I didn't think the Knicks would be good this year, but even I didn't expect this mess. I love it.


I'm with ya there! ba-da-ba-ba-ba... I'm loving it!

I took quite a bit of heat before the season started claiming that the Knicks were, maybe, the fourth best team in their own division rather than the fourth best team in the east. (as quite a few "bulls" fans were crowing) I figured them for the bottom third before the season started. I thought a top-10 pick was on the way but I really didn't think we'd be looking at a potential top-5 pick. If the season were to end today, we'd be guaranteed a top-5 pick regardless of the lottery.










Courtesy of RealGM... Too Funny!!!!


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> 14-33, try to keep up. I know its hard.
> 
> Anyway, the only purely good thing about the Bulls season so far is how bad the Knicks suck. I've kind find some good on the team in any season, and this is no exception. But the Knicks' failure is by far the bright spot. That kinda sucks.


I'm sorry, the freaking Knicks just keep losing so fast, it's hard to keep up with the losses.

But IMHO, bright spot #1 is the fact that we have struggled a lot this season but we should still make the playoffs. Only 3 games seperate us from the 5th seed in the East, and I still don't really doubt that we'll catch at least one of them. And from my perspective, even a worst-case 4 game beatdown by the Pistons is better for the playoff experience than moving up 2 or 3 spots into the bottom of the lottery.

We have a pretty decent schedule once this trip is over, even at a worst-case scenario of 20-30 we still will have plenty of time to make a move.

But yeah, having the Knicks suck this much (as a few of us predicted FWIW) is a close #2- I had no doubt that we could "replace" Eddy with our cap space, having that top pick is just such an added bonus that it could realistically speed up our ascent back to being contenders by a year or two.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> Knicks record in the Crawford/Curry era: 14-33



Does anyone think that the Bulls organization bears a tiny bit of responsability for "ruining" Crawford and Curry? That if they'd started out with different circumstances, under perhaps different coaching and GM'ing, and away from all the losing and the rancor that afflicted the Bulls in their first NBA years, that they'd be different, better NBA players right now?


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Seems to me the bulls season is having a meltdown of its own.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> Does anyone think that the Bulls organization bears a tiny bit of responsability for "ruining" Crawford and Curry? That if they'd started out with different circumstances, under perhaps different coaching and GM'ing, and away from all the losing and the rancor that afflicted the Bulls in their first NBA years, that they'd be different, better NBA players right now?


No.

Witness Elton, Brad Miller, Ron Ron.

The mistake was that Krause got so excited about measuring their physical gifts and their "emotional stability" that he forgot to give either of them an IQ test. Krause saw them as raw talents with excellent physical attributes and figured he'd get the next Kobe or KG. Problem is that Kobe and KG play the game with their heads. Having a front row seat to the Jordan era, Krause should have realized that the head -- not the body -- is the most important aspect of a great player. After all, Jordan's physique wasn't all that unusual..... His drive to win was. What in either Crawford or Curry's past would incline anyone to believe that either had the drive or the brains to become great?


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> Does anyone think that the Bulls organization bears a tiny bit of responsability for "ruining" Crawford and Curry? That if they'd started out with different circumstances, under perhaps different coaching and GM'ing, and away from all the losing and the rancor that afflicted the Bulls in their first NBA years, that they'd be different, better NBA players right now?


Its possible. I doubt it, but its possible. They might be so weak-minded that they are forever tainted by their rough entry into the league. Had their fragile psyches been exposed to a winning environment from the get-go, perhaps they would have been nurtured to success themselves.

But the fact is most lottery picks go to losing situations. The good ones either turn those situations around or, at least, excell as individuals in those rotten circumstances (like Elton Brand and Chris Bosh, for example).


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



DaBullz said:


> Seems to me the bulls season is having a meltdown of its own.


In the sense that we've lost our last few games, yes.

I think most of us felt, though, that this season would be a small step back (albeit smaller than what it appears to be now!). Given the lower expectations, I think calling it a "meltdown" isn't very accurate. Seems like the players are still fighting each game, still playing together, still harmony in the clubhouse. Tyson and Sweets are moving in the right direction, Gordon is emerging, etc. We also have the pot at the end of the rainbow in knowing that this summer holds many options to improve the club.

NY, OTH, is stuck without options and one of (if not the) highest payrolls in the league. The made a bunch of moves that were supposed to help them -- each move costing them more and more money -- and have ultimately become an even worse ball-club than last season. Internal disharmony, fussin' and feudin' in the front office, and no forseeable respite from their pain.

Franchise bankruptcy may be their only option....


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> NY, OTH, is stuck without options and one of (if not the) highest payrolls in the league.


Its the highest - by a lot. Their payroll is actually more than San Antonio and Detroit combined.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Great editorial on why the Knicks are doomed to stink until '10 or so by Kelly Dyer:



> Layden's guys are gone, their contracts erased, and yet Thomas continues to add and add to the mess -- while those rookie contracts are going to need extending sooner than you think. Curry-Frye-Jamal Crawford may seem like a nice talent base to add to, but with few draft picks and no cap space, how will Thomas build a winner?
> 
> He's already proven himself incapable of working the mid-level exception (see James, Jerome), and there's no way he's turning these huge deals into an All-Star. Danny Ainge would no sooner trade Paul Pierce to Thomas than he would sign a free agent sans the requisite CAT scan. And if Thomas thinks that Kevin McHale is going to send the nearly-30, beat-to-hell Kevin Garnett out to the Garden, then I have some Ruben Patterson I'd like to sell Thomas.
> 
> So work yourself silly, Knicks fans. Call the radio jockfests or work the RealGM.com trade checker until your knuckles are blue and orange -- it hardly matters. The Knicks are more than happy in their role as the world's most famous 14-win team because they are sure as hell happy to bring it to you.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=cnnsi-nowayout&prov=cnnsi&type=lgns


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> Does anyone think that the Bulls organization bears a tiny bit of responsability for "ruining" Crawford and Curry? That if they'd started out with different circumstances, under perhaps different coaching and GM'ing, and away from all the losing and the rancor that afflicted the Bulls in their first NBA years, that they'd be different, better NBA players right now?


Really hard to say that about Curry ("ruined"), given that he was the top scorer and 2nd most MPG player on our only good team since Jordan and the Bulls quickly went downhill once he left.

I think Krause could have done a much better job providing a good development enrionment for the players he drafted.... but it didn't "ruin" anyone.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> Franchise bankruptcy may be their only option....


Are the Knicks not profitable?


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Are the Knicks not profitable?


Was referring to my post earlier in the thread (I know it's awfully self-serving to quote one's self!  ) about franchise bankruptcy. I'm sure they're making money, they just aren't winning and don't seem to have any of the necessary tools to get into a winning situation any time soon.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Really hard to say that about Curry ("ruined"), given that he was the top scorer and 2nd most MPG player on our only good team since Jordan and the Bulls quickly went downhill once he left.


Your logic breaks down when you realize that the Knicks fortunes have not gone up with him. Their luxury tax exposure has. Their frustration level has.

But not their rebounding numbers and not their wins.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Are the Knicks not profitable?


MSG is profitable.

And I've read in the past that other folks with shares in MSG aren't at all happy with Dolan and what he's doing with the Knicks. If the Knicks weren't tied into MSG, there would be issues. It's fairly easy to lose money quickly in the NBA - see the Bucks and Trailblazers. 

Being in the major market is a big plus.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> and don't seem to have any of the necessary tools to get into a winning situation any time soon.


Really?

Man, I disagree.

Let's put it this way.

If you could acquire Channing Frye and Eddy Curry for say... Othella Harrington and Darius Songalia.... would you turn it down?

Those two guys on the Knicks I'd take in a second.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> If you could acquire Channing Frye and Eddy Curry for say... Othella Harrington and Darius Songalia.... would you turn it down?
> 
> Those two guys on the Knicks I'd take in a second.


Yeah, because the Bulls have the flexibility and additional players to win with them...neither of them will ever be the winning spark on a team though. Plus we've got a coach who'll work with the talent he has and make the most of it (where is my asbestos cape?).

But the Knicks?



> New York's 2006 lottery pick will be headed to the Chicago Bulls, who will also have the option to swap theirs with New York's in '07. The Knicks also owe a first-rounder to the Phoenix Suns in '08, '09 or '10, and have just three second-round picks to use for the rest of the decade. That's hardly the type of flexibility a team requires for an overhaul.
> 
> But why wait for the draft to change the team's prospects when there's always another deal to be made at Madison Square Garden. Of all of the traits Thomas can be criticized for, perhaps his most damaging to the team is his stubborn unwillingness to let contracts expire.
> --
> Curry-Frye-Jamal Crawford may seem like a nice talent base to add to, but with few draft picks and no cap space, how will Thomas build a winner?


Link above.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> Your logic breaks down when you realize that the Knicks fortunes have not gone up with him. Their luxury tax exposure has. Their frustration level has.


A good player can be on a bad team... and there are 100s of other variables...

For instance, Marbury is not playing anywhere near as well has he did last season. He was their best player last season by a large margin.

I understand that the same can be said about the Bulls… but its so obvious that our lack of inside presence is hurting this team I can’t imagine even the biggest Curry basher (not necessarily you) not recognizing it.

As a Bulls fan, I'm much more frustrated with Curry gone, since we're a loser once again. It was fun not following a loser, but it was sadly blown up after one season. We are quite financially flexible though, you are right. That's what really matters.... not winning. 

If a true superstar ends up being available with the Knicks lotto pick and the Knicks would have probably picked him, I can perhaps see a Knicks fan being frustrated, but barring that, I think I'd be happy with a quality, young starting center.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Really?
> 
> Man, I disagree.
> 
> Let's put it this way.
> 
> If you could acquire Channing Frye and Eddy Curry for say... Othella Harrington and Darius Songalia.... would you turn it down?
> 
> Those two guys on the Knicks I'd take in a second.


I like Frye, and I think Curry can play consistent minutes on a good ballclub. Problem is, they need people around them. Who? I like Ariza. I like David Lee. It's not enough. Knicks are stuck in "mid-level exception" world or "I'll eat your horrible contract if you throw in a draft pick" world for as long as Isaiah remains at the helm. I also think LB is a decent coach, but isn't being given the roster he needs to get things done.

Looking at the Knick roster, I'd say those I guys I listed and Crawdaddy (I know you probably spit out your drink to see me say this) are the only promising players on that team. I think, though, that at least Curry and Crawdaddy are limited in what they can do, and may have already reached that limit. With the Knick being capped out, and having given away what looks to be a great draft pick this season and trading a great pick next season for a much worse next season -- I just can't see how this can be fixed.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I seriously don't understand why people get so excited about Cap Space.

This is the second time post Jordan we've built a steaming pile of it...... and best case we're going to turn it into Al Harrington or Drew Gooden. Best case. Neither of those guys are going to be the "winning spark" on a team either.

3 years in the making. Its a nice shell game. 3 years of paychecks.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> A good player can be on a bad team... and there are 100s of other variables...
> 
> For instance, Marbury is not playing anywhere near as well has he did last season. He was their best player last season by a large margin.
> 
> I understand that the same can be said about the Bulls… but its so obvious that our lack of inside presence is hurting this team I can’t imagine even the biggest Curry basher (not necessarily you) not recognizing it.
> 
> As a Bulls fan, I'm much more frustrated with Curry gone, since we're a loser once again. It was fun not following a loser, but it was sadly blown up after one season. We are quite financially flexible though, you are right. That's what really matters.... not winning.
> 
> If a true superstar ends up being available with the Knicks lotto pick and the Knicks would have probably picked him, I can perhaps see a Knicks fan being frustrated, but barring that, I think I'd be happy with a quality, young starting center.


Trading Curry is hardly blowing up a team. We could use Curry this year, because we're very small, but the point is do we want Curry for several years to come? You seem to miss that and only consider this year.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I seriously don't understand why people get so excited about Cap Space.


Let's see what it becomes before we get down on it. Cap Space = Flexibity. Flexibility, in itself, means nothing. It's how you use the flexibility. I'm hoping we use it well. If we don't, maybe I'll join someone's fancy signature club somewhere.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> A good player can be on a bad team... and there are 100s of other variables...


Couldn't the reverse of that be true for Curry being the top scorer and MPG man last season?



> As a Bulls fan, I'm much more frustrated with Curry gone, since we're a loser once again. It was fun not following a loser, but it was sadly blown up after one season.


You're a loser, not me.  Paxson *did not* blow anything up...all the parts that were/are necessary to our future, minus Curry, are still here. We expected a short step back this season to be followed by a strong, long step forward next season.



> We are quite financially flexible though, you are right.


And thats why we'll get back to winning. Financially and draft-wise, we now have everything necessary to add to our core what this team needs in the off-season.

The Knicks don't.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Zeb said:


> Trading Curry is hardly blowing up a team. We could use Curry this year, because we're very small, but the point is do we want Curry for several years to come? You seem to miss that and only consider this year.


Productive centers in the NBA are 24K gold.

Good luck getting another. There is maybe 1 on the market in FA season this off-season. Maybe 1.
There are seemingly none in the draft.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I seriously don't understand why people get so excited about Cap Space.


Cap space is not just about free agents.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Productive centers in the NBA are 24K gold.
> 
> Good luck getting another. There is maybe 1 on the market in FA season this off-season. Maybe 1.
> There are seemingly none in the draft.


Curry is merely fool's gold.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Productive centers in the NBA are 24K gold.
> 
> Good luck getting another.


First, define productive. We need to know how you're defining it.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> Couldn't the reverse of that be true for Curry being the top scorer and MPG man last season?


I disagree. If we take a look at the top 2 scorers or top two MPG guys on the top 4 teams of each conference... which the Bulls were last season and Curry was last season... you won't find many, if any, scrubs.



> You're a loser, not me.  Paxson *did not* blow anything up...all the parts that were/are necessary to our future, minus Curry, are still here. We expected a short step back this season to be followed by a strong, long step forward next season.


If you say so. I see a team that is outmatched on most nights... while given maximum effort.



> And thats why we'll get back to winning. Financially and draft-wise, we now have everything necessary to add to our core what this team needs in the off-season.


Al Harrington?



> The Knicks don't.


The Knicks will not have a chance at Al Harrington as a FA this off-season, that is true.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> First, define productive. We need to know how you're defining it.


I find PER to be the best public stat out there. It takes pace and minutes played into account, and combines the good and bad that a player bring to the court.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Zeb said:


> Curry is merely fool's gold.


If you say so.

The only time I've seen this team really take it to other NBA teams since MJ was the end of 2002-2003 and last season... both times Curry was at his best.

Now we're rotten again.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I disagree. If we take a look at the top 2 scorers or top two MPG guys on the top 4 teams of each conference... which the Bulls were last season and Curry was last season... you won't find many, if any, scrubs.


So whats his problem this season?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I'm making Beef Manhattan for dinner tonight, who else likes Beef Manhattan?


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> If you say so.
> 
> The only time I've seen this team really take it to other NBA teams since MJ was the end of 2002-2003 and last season... both times Curry was at his best.
> 
> Now we're rotten again.


Why were the Knicks the only team seriously interested in this 24K Gold? Oh, I remember, the Evil Pax drove his value down.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I find PER to be the best public stat out there. It takes pace and minutes played into account, and combines the good and bad that a player bring to the court.


I find that PER doesn't seem to correlate with reality. EFF, however, does. Sometimes when you take in too many variables, you dilute the stat past the point of being meaningful. I've still yet to see an accurate definition for PER, despite how many links you've provided in the past.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



 bullsville said:


> I'm making Beef Manhattan for dinner tonight, who else likes Beef Manhattan?


Beef Manhattan sounds like a pseudonym for Eddy Curry.

Beef _in_ Manhattan sounds like a description of Eddy Curry.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Zeb said:


> Why were the Knicks the only team seriously interested in this 24K Gold? Oh, I remember, the Evil Pax drove his value down.


He's doing a great job of showing all the other GM's they were wrong...


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*










"Whoa...deja vu."


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> So whats his problem this season?


Curry is playing pretty well. The same weaknesses we all know about are there... but he's rebounding better (rebound rate) and getting to the line better than nearly any other player in the league.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> If you say so.
> 
> The only time I've seen this team really take it to other NBA teams since MJ was the end of 2002-2003 and last season... both times Curry was at his best.
> 
> Now we're rotten again.


We'll re-acquire him next time a contract season rolls around...


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> I find that PER doesn't seem to correlate with reality. EFF, however, does. Sometimes when you take in too many variables, you dilute the stat past the point of being meaningful. I've still yet to see an accurate definition for PER, despite how many links you've provided in the past.



EFF has some serious flaws, IMO, mainly it does not take pace into account.

I've posted the formula a half dozen times.... there is a good explanation of all of Hollinger's stats and the rationale behind them in his Pro Basketball Forcast book.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The Bulls need some beef in Denver.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ViciousFlogging said:


> "Whoa...deja vu."



If you lack anything constructive to add...oh wait.

Never mind.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Curry is playing pretty well. The same weaknesses we all know about are there... but he's rebounding better (rebound rate) and getting to the line better than nearly any other player in the league.


So why isn't he carrying the Knicks to victory? 

>drumbeat<

The other four players he started with last season were just as big, or even bigger, causes of the Bulls winning than he was. He just got the good stats from it.

Right now, I'd posit that the Knicks would have a better record with Chris Duhon in blue than Curry.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> Right now, I'd posit that the Knicks would have a better record with Chris Duhon in blue than Curry.


Honestly?


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> If you lack anything constructive to add...oh wait.
> 
> Never mind.


 :clown: :biggrin:


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> So why isn't he carrying the Knicks to victory?




Why isn't Bosh carrying the Raptors to victory?
Why isnt' TMAC carrying the Rockets to victory?
Why isn't PP carrying the Celtics to victory?


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

PER ratings:

Eddy hasn't played enough to qualify, first of all. But if he had...

His PER of 17.4 would rank him 56th in the NBA out of 204 qualifiers- tied with Eddie House.

BUT if we look at the rest of Hollinger's PER-related stats...

Eddy's Rebounding Rate is 14.0, which is 43rd in the NBA. Behind such great centers as Mihm, Foyle, Haywood, Gadzuric, Ostertag, Przybilla and Mohammed.

Eddy's Turnover Rate of 17.7 is the 12th-worst in the NBA. Enough said.

Eddy's Assist Rate barely even registers on the charts. It is 1.4, which would be 205th out of 204 qualifiers. It is so bad, that Zo at 1.8 is the only other player besides Eddy in the entire league who is below 3.0, so needless to say Eddy is definitely the worst passer in the league.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> PER ratings:
> 
> 
> His PER of 17.4 would rank him 56th in the NBA out of 204 qualifiers- tied with Eddie House.


Where does he rank among centers?

Funny you didn't mention usage rate. Where does he rank in usage rate among centers?

What is the best PER among Bulls forwards or centers?

What's Chandler's PER?


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Why isn't Bosh carrying the Raptors to victory?
> Why isnt' TMAC carrying the Rockets to victory?
> Why isn't PP carrying the Celtics to victory?


Please tell me you are not seriously putting Curry into the above players category? You CAN'T be serious.

This stuff just gets better and better. Makes the workday go by quicker though!


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Why isn't Bosh carrying the Raptors to victory?


As of 5 days ago:


> Amidst this frenzy of activity, the Raptors are on a three-game winning streak and are now a game above .500 (16-15) since they started the season 1-15.


http://www.raptorblog.com/060204a.php



> Why isnt' TMAC carrying the Rockets to victory?


As of yesterday:



> With Tracy McGrady and Yao Ming healthy, the Houston Rockets are better than they have been in months.
> ---
> Yao, in his fourth game back since missing 21 after toe surgery, looked to have shaken off any lingering effects of the injury with a strong start and scored 15 points. Houston's record is 12-6 when he and McGrady play. McGrady had missed five games with back spasms.
> 
> With both its stars healthy, Houston has its longest winning streak since it captured five in a row from Dec. 6-15.


http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/258357_nbaround06.html



> Why isn't PP carrying the Celtics to victory?


Maybe he's got something in common with Curry.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



fl_flash said:


> Please tell me you are not seriously putting Curry into the above players category? You CAN'T be serious.
> 
> This stuff just gets better and better. Makes the workday go by quicker though!


Why can't they carry their teams to victory?

(clearly, those players are better than Curry, although Curry does play a position where productive players are very scarce)


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Rename the thread to *kukoc4ever defends the Knicks*


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> As of 5 days ago:
> 
> http://www.raptorblog.com/060204a.php
> 
> 
> As of yesterday:
> 
> 
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/258357_nbaround06.html
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe he's got something in common with Curry.


Knicks went on a 6 game winning streak at one point as well.

Why can't Al Harrington carry his team to victory?
Why can't Joel Przybilla carry his team to victory?


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

More plainly...Bosh has led a turnaround in the teams fortunes, and so has Mcgrady when he and the other teams star finally got healthy.

Eddy has gotten healthy and...


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Why isn't Bosh carrying the Raptors to victory?
> Why isnt' TMAC carrying the Rockets to victory?
> Why isn't PP carrying the Celtics to victory?


Well, Boston and Toronto are bad teams, which I think is your point. Houston has been injury riddled, and I think they actually do have a winning record when T-Mac plays. So he doesn't really count.

The question is, does Bosh and PP make those teams as good as they CAN BE given their construction? In other words, if they were hurt would the team be as good? 

I think the answer is an obvious no. If you sit Bosh or PP for 8 or 10 games, the record, even as bad as it is, would likely go down.

My understanding is that the Knicks winning % is actually better this year in the games that Curry missed (there was an article out of New York recently illustrating that the with-Curry/without-Curry records were the same, and the Knicks have lost several more games since then). And no, I don't think he makes them worse. But, as I said when he was a Bull, I don't think Curry actually positively impacts games when you look at the complete picture. If he does positively impact them, the impact is minimal.

Of course, without he and AD this year, the Bulls are struggling whereas last year they did not. So maybe my theory isn't perfectly sound, though I believe there are many factors behind the Bulls' struggles that aren't tied directly to Curry. 

But regardless of this season, Curry to me has been and always will be easily replaceable. This summer he will be replaced and the Bulls will then be a better team than the one Curry played on last year. This is my opinion.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The Knicks are 3-6 (.333) when Eddy doesn't play.

The Knicks are 11-27 (.289) when Eddy plays.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> But regardless of this season, Curry to me has been and always will be easily replaceable. This summer he will be replaced and the Bulls will then be a better team than the one Curry played on last year. This is my opinion.


I hope you turn out to be right.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



bullsville said:


> The Knicks are 3-6 (.333) when Eddy doesn't play.
> 
> The Knicks are 11-27 (.289) when Eddy plays.


Did you find that usage rate stuff or PER by position stuff?

I didn't know if you left it out on purpose or if it was merely an oversight.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Pierce rarely forces anything, leads by example and does it with a smile on his face. During crunch time, where most franchise guys are looking to make the biggest shot, he's just as likely to grab a big rebound or take a crucial charge. As late as last spring, it seemed like the rigors of the league had beaten him -- just another young star who made too much money too soon, took everything for granted, trusted the wrong people and couldn't handle the burden of carrying his own team. Now he's one of the best all-around players in the league, a franchise player in every sense. Meanwhile, he's surrounded by mostly overmatched young players and wildly overpaid big men, as well as the only coach in the NBA who refuses to settle on a nine-man rotation.
> 
> And that's what worries me.
> --
> 1. Trade Pierce now. I mean, RIGHT NOW. Get what you can, whether it's Luol Deng and picks from Chicago, Corey Maggette and Shaun Livingston from the Clippers or whatever. If they can convince Isiah to take Pierce and the Mark Blount/Raef LaFrentz/Brian Scalabrine/Dan Dickau "Salary Cap Poison Package" for expiring contracts and Channing Frye, even better.
> 
> 2. Fire Doc Rivers and see if the 2005-2006 Celtics could be salvaged with a competent coach.
> 
> I vote for Option No. 2. You can always find another coach. You can't always find another Paul Pierce.


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/060112

But you can replace...oh never mind.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Did you find that usage rate stuff or PER by position stuff?
> 
> I didn't know if you left it out on purpose or if it was merely an oversight.


That PER stuff is bull**** in any event. Pardon my language. It doesn't adequately consider defense. A player can be offensively productive and a defensive liability, thus negating much of his so-called "productivity".

I've seen Hollinger's player rankings based on PER. They are an absolute joke when you consider how valuable a player actually is to his team and how desireable he would be to other GMs around the league. I don't remember the specifics of where they were ranked, but I got a good and hearty laugh earlier this year when I saw some of the bums who had better PERs than players like Ben Wallace and Bruce Bowen. 

Sorry, its a supremely flawed statistc, like all statistics extrapolated out to prove a point larger than the limited confines of the stat itself. 

Let me just ask this: 

What is Eddy Curry's PER?

What is Ben Wallace's PER?

EDIT: I could write a lot more about why PER is bull**** (i.e., incapable of considering the non-quantifiable aspects of the game, of which there are many) when used as it is often used by posters here. But I've written all of that before.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

What did I miss?



> Crawford to Orlando for Kelvin Cato?
> 
> The Magic are debating whether to put Jamal Crawford on their team with his verstality to play two positions and skill potential high while he's been somewhat of a disappointment playing in the big arena of Madison Square Garden.  He appearred to be ready for a McGrady like explosion when he went off to NY after gradually getting better in Chicago but his field goal percentage is still too low for a shooting guard but he's an excellent scorer.


http://journals.aol.com/jimbarne/MagicalThoughts-OrlandoMagicRepo/entries/1094


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> Of course, without he and AD this year, the Bulls are struggling whereas last year they did not. So maybe my theory isn't perfectly sound, though I believe there are many factors behind the Bulls' struggles that aren't tied directly to Curry.


You theory is perfectly sound. We do miss AD and Eddy due to the fact that their size has not been replaced. Eddy is a decent player, who does some things very well. And does some things very poorly. We need a big body with decent skills. As I've said before, given Eddy's wildly inconsistent play, I don't know how many more games, if any, we would have won to this point with Eddy specifically being that big body.

There is no doubt we would have won a few more if Tyson hadn't snoozed through most of the first half, or if we had another servicable center of decent size and skill, and/or another big banging PF to take up the slack in the meantime.

Part of the struggle has been the bulk deficiency. Mostly though, the Bulls struggle seems to be a Rocky III "Eye of the Tiger" thing. I don't know whether to blame Skiles for the lacking "Eye of the Tiger" or the players or both, but the overachieving fiery play is simply lacking. Perhaps it was too much to expect that the same momentum be maintained, but it is sorely lacking and that, as much as anything else, is what seems to be costing us.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> Let me just ask this:
> 
> What is Eddy Curry's PER?
> 
> What is Ben Wallace's PER?


Ben Wallace is rated higher than Curry.

It admittedly is not perfect. But, IMO, it takes out a lot of the flaws in most common basketball stats that people like to use... mainly not looking at rate, not taking minutes played into account and focusing only on the negatives a player has versus taking both the positives and negatives into account.

If someone is predisposed to dislike and want to rip Curry, you can talk about assists, as many do. These same people were talking about rebounding last season, but he’s improved his rebounding, so now its assists. Fine. He does not get many assists at all. But.. .he puts the ball in the hoop at a rate better than most players in the league and gets to the line better than most players in the league. These are all good things that should be taken into account as well.

It’s a lot like Chandler. Chandler is inept in so many areas of his game. Completely inept. But, he’s a tall, athletic guy and when he decides to try can grab rebounds better than nearly any other player in the league and cause trouble on defense with his length and athletism. These are all good things. If I were predisposed to ripping Chandler, I’d talk just about the obvious and glaring negatives. But, you have to look at the whole picture… and as a whole… Chandler does more good than harm out there when he’s on his game, and PER reflects that… he was our best guy last year.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> That PER stuff is bull**** in any event. Pardon my language. It doesn't adequately consider defense. A player can be offensively productive and a defensive liability, thus negating much of his so-called "productivity".
> 
> I've seen Hollinger's player rankings based on PER. They are an absolute joke when you consider how valuable a player actually is to his team and how desireable he would be to other GMs around the league. I don't remember the specifics of where they were ranked, but I got a good and hearty laugh earlier this year when I saw some of the bums who had better PERs than players like Ben Wallace and Bruce Bowen.
> 
> Sorry, its a supremely flawed statistc, like all statistics extrapolated out to prove a point larger than the limited confines of the stat itself.
> 
> Let me just ask this:
> 
> What is Eddy Curry's PER?
> 
> What is Ben Wallace's PER?
> 
> EDIT: I could write a lot more about why PER is bull**** (i.e., incapable of considering the non-quantifiable aspects of the game, of which there are many) when used as it is often used by posters here. But I've written all of that before.


Ron, would you mind enumerating at least a couple of the "many factors behind the Bulls' struggles that aren't directly related to Curry"?

After all, your rationale for slavishly defending Paxdorf's conduct this summer was that you felt the Bulls would be a 44-win team (I'm guessing at the exact number; it was something in that range) if Eddy left, and a 44-win team if he stayed. 

Since the Bulls are on pace to fall a hardly insignificant 8-12 games short of a goal you were quite certain they'd make, I'm interested to know what the other factors are.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> You theory is perfectly sound. We do miss AD and Eddy due to the fact that their size has not been replaced. Eddy is a decent player, who does some things very well. And does some things very poorly. We need a big body with decent skills. As I've said before, given Eddy's wildly inconsistent play, I don't know how many more games, if any, we would have won to this point with Eddy specifically being that big body.
> 
> There is no doubt we would have won a few more if Tyson hadn't snoozed through most of the first half, or if we had another servicable center of decent size and skill, and/or another big banging PF to take up the slack in the meantime.
> 
> Part of the struggle has been the bulk deficiency. Mostly though, the Bulls struggle seems to be a Rocky III "Eye of the Tiger" thing. I don't know whether to blame Skiles for the lacking "Eye of the Tiger" or the players or both, but the overachieving fiery play is simply lacking. Perhaps it was too much to expect that the same momentum be maintained, but it is sorely lacking and that, as much as anything else, is what seems to be costing us.



Must be that fancy scmancy edumacacion. You said in one post what it took me 16 to say badly.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> You theory is perfectly sound. We do miss AD and Eddy due to the fact that their size has not been replaced. Eddy is a decent player, who does some things very well. And does some things very poorly. We need a big body with decent skills. As I've said before, given Eddy's wildly inconsistent play, I don't know how many more games, if any, we would have won to this point with Eddy specifically being that big body.
> 
> There is no doubt we would have won a few more if Tyson hadn't snoozed through most of the first half, or if we had another servicable center of decent size and skill, and/or another big banging PF to take up the slack in the meantime.
> 
> Part of the struggle has been the bulk deficiency. Mostly though, the Bulls struggle seems to be a Rocky III "Eye of the Tiger" thing. I don't know whether to blame Skiles for the lacking "Eye of the Tiger" or the players or both, but the overachieving fiery play is simply lacking. Perhaps it was too much to expect that the same momentum be maintained, but it is sorely lacking and that, as much as anything else, is what seems to be costing us.


well stated.

it's the mojo/tiger thing that's done up and left. 

damn it, now i have that song in my head.

thanks alot tom.

our mojo may have skipped town, but at least it doesn't wear women's panties like the knicks'. 


:laugh:


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> That PER stuff is bull**** in any event.


Its better than "just watching the games", IMO. If I didn't take the time to read the books like Basketball on Paper and Pro Basketball Forcast the last two years then I might agree with you, but I think its very valuable information as long as you take into account its weaknesses.

Its a great compliment to watching ball, IMO, since you can't remember everything and people are predisposed to like/dislike certain skills/plays/other reasons.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> damn it, now i have that song in my head.
> 
> thanks alot tom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :laugh:


Whenever I get a song stuck in my head, I start singing "Hooked on a Feeling" to myself

Ouga Chaka Ouga Chaka Ouga Ouga Ouga Chaka

IIIIIIIIIyyy-IIIyyy-IIIIIIIyyyy-IIIIyyy-III am Hooked on a Feeeelinggggg
I can't stop this feeeeling 
Deeeeep insiiiiide of meeeeeeeee



then that gets stuck in my head instead... :sigh:


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

"There are three types of lies - lies, damn lies and statistics."

Mark Twain


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> Ron, would you mind enumerating at least a couple of the "many factors behind the Bulls' struggles that aren't directly related to Curry"?
> 
> After all, your rationale for slavishly defending Paxdorf's conduct this summer was that you felt the Bulls would be a 44-win team (I'm guessing at the exact number; it was something in that range) if Eddy left, and a 44-win team if he stayed.
> 
> Since the Bulls are on pace to fall a hardly insignificant 8-12 games short of a goal you were quite certain they'd make, I'm interested to know what the other factors are.


I've already eaten my crow a dozen times on this board by saying that I woefully misjudged the size aspect of losing Curry and AD. I was wrong. But since you asked:

(a) I made that prediction in the context of losing Curry, not Curry AND Antonio Davis, as I recall. The loss of BOTH hurt more than I thought it would. 

(b) The Bulls have played 47 games. Chandler showed up to 8 of them. This is by far the single biggest blow to the Bulls this season, in my opinion.

(c) Hinrich absolutely disappeared during that 8 game losing streak. I still don't understand what happened there.

(d) Though Gordon is turning it on lately, he didn't improve as much as I'd hoped he would from year one to year two. 

(e) For a large part of the season, this team didn't defend well. I have no explanation for that either. For quite a while, though I think we are largely past that now regardless of the recent losses, this team just played with less fire and intensity. 

(f) This team hasn't been able to close out games. 

This loss of size has hurt. Its hurt a lot. But it hasn't hurt to the point that this team should not make the playoffs. There are other, independent factors at play here (or that were at play earlier) that are/were far more detrimental. 

Like I said, Curry will be replaced soon enough. It just didn't happen as quickly as I thought it would. As you recall, I always said that Chandler was Curry's replacement. Well, until recently he fell woefully short.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> That PER stuff is bull**** in any event. Pardon my language. It doesn't adequately consider defense.


On that note, I would just like to point out the Bill James/Baseball Prospectus "play the game on paper" method had the White Sox finishing dead last in their division this year.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Its better than "just watching the games", IMO.


Nothing is better than "just watching the games" if you know the game. Nothing.

As for the rest of your post, I didn't say PER totally lacking in value. Statistics have value as long as they are limited to the confines of the stat itself and not expanded into some larger idea. That applies to PER as well.

EDIT: I did say PER was bull****. But I clarified that later in that same post. Its bull**** the way it gets used around here to actually rank or value players.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I think the bottomline to all this is that there are good players who play on bad teams, and not-so-very good players who play on good teams. I would agree with classifying Curry in that latter category (EDIT: Although currently he's just a not-so-very good player on a really bad team).

But let's not lose track of the important issue and the spirit of the thread:

New York 14-33
Charlotte 13-36 (2 GB)


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> Nothing is better than "just watching the games" if you know the game. Nothing.
> 
> As for the rest of your post, I didn't say PER totally lacking in value. Statistics have value as long as they *are limited to the confines of the stat itself and not expanded into some larger idea.* That applies to PER as well.


I don't think that's what PER is trying to do. It just emliminates some clear flaws in looking at PPG, RPG and APG in evaluating basketball players. (pace, minutes, total picture)

You don't remember close to half of the basketball you watch, no matter how well you know the game.



> EDIT: I did say PER was bull****. But I clarified that later in that same post. Its bull**** the way it gets used around here to actually rank or value players.


Just curious, if its not bull****, then how it being used in a manner you don't like?


----------



## Babble-On

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Is having the same argument over and over for months considered enjoyable by some of you guys? 

We have heard all this crap many times over. Some people think Eddy's impact is in line with my personal views of what a franchise player is(the difference between lottery and title contention, getting rid of him constitutes blowing the team up and rebuilding, no combination of free agents, one or more lotto picks, possible players aquired in trades made possible as a result of the flexibilty his being traded, etc will measure up to his singular presence). Others think he has little, or worse, a negative impact on his teams. Repeat ad nauseum for months. 

It seems like this place has degenerated from the biggest congregation of people discussing a single sports team, into a handful of people repeating the same arguments about two guys that don't even play for the Bulls. The threads about other things ether get almost ignored or worse, hijacked into the same argument. I stopped posting as much a while ago when I had posted my opinion Jamal is still at this point way too iconisistent to value so highly, and a pro Jamal guy told me that if I was gonna trash Jamal that I had to go back and read through the whole jamal thread so I could cosign all the opinions of the anti jamal crew. It was at that point that I realized that I was getting drawn into being a part of the repetitive extremist factions that dominate the board and I didn't like it.

As I've stated before, I don't think Eddy is a bad player. I think he did a good job jump starting the offense early in games, and had progressed to become a decent on the ball defender. I think he'd have helped this year, but I don't think he was the key to our success. I think the key to last year was last was top of the league D, and an uncanny ability to make the plays needed to win close games. I personally don't think he was very influential in either of those aspects. That being said, I originally favored keeping him as the best option, until he got traded, saw that we got multiple picks, at least one of them in the lottery, plus cap space and a player capable of being a solid contributer, and I came around to feeling that not only could we replace Eddy but also make further additions that we would've needed to make even if we still had Eddy but which i think would've been harder to make. 

I'm gonna try to make that the last time I take the time typing up a (re)statement of my opinion about Eddy Curry. I'm ready to move on. Anybody else?


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> (2 GB)


It would make for a wonderful world, wouldn't it?


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Babble-On said:


> Is having the same argument over and over for months considered enjoyable by some of you guys?


Yes.



> I'm ready to move on. Anybody else?


No.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> It would make for a wonderful world, wouldn't it?


In theory, yes. In practice, since the current lottery system was established, I believe only two teams that had the worst record actually ended up with the number one pick.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> I don't think that's what PER is trying to do. It just emliminates some clear flaws in looking at PPG, RPG and APG in evaluating basketball players. (pace, minutes, total picture)


PER is a stat, it doesn't "try" to do anything. People use PER expansively, and shouldn't.



> You don't remember close to half of the basketball you watch, no matter how well you know the game.


I don't remember all the lines from "Mad Love" starring Chris O'Donnell and Drew Barrymore, but I know it was bad. 

No one needs to "remember" all of the basketball they watch to accurately evaluate a player. What is remembered, as with all things, is the lasting impression and opinion that is formed at the time the behaviour is observed.



> Just curious, if its not bull****, then how it being used in a manner you don't like?


To call a player "productive".


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> To call a player "productive".


How would you classify a player as "productive?"


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Babble-On said:


> Is having the same argument over and over for months considered enjoyable by some of you guys?
> 
> We have heard all this crap many times over. Some people think Eddy's impact is in line with my personal views of what a franchise player is(the difference between lottery and title contention, getting rid of him constitutes blowing the team up and rebuilding, no combination of free agents, one or more lotto picks, possible players aquired in trades made possible as a result of the flexibilty his being traded, etc will measure up to his singular presence). Others think he has little, or worse, a negative impact on his teams. Repeat ad nauseum for months.
> 
> It seems like this place has degenerated from the biggest congregation of people discussing a single sports team, into a handful of people repeating the same arguments about two guys that don't even play for the Bulls. The threads about other things ether get almost ignored or worse, hijacked into the same argument. I stopped posting as much a while ago when I had posted my opinion Jamal is still at this point way too iconisistent to value so highly, and a pro Jamal guy told me that if I was gonna trash Jamal that I had to go back and read through the whole jamal thread so I could cosign all the opinions of the anti jamal crew. It was at that point that I realized that I was getting drawn into being a part of the repetitive extremist factions that dominate the board and I didn't like it.
> 
> As I've stated before, I don't think Eddy is a bad player. I think he did a good job jump starting the offense early in games, and had progressed to become a decent on the ball defender. I think he'd have helped this year, but I don't think he was the key to our success. I think the key to last year was last was top of the league D, and an uncanny ability to make the plays needed to win close games. I personally don't think he was very influential in either of those aspects. That being said, I originally favored keeping him as the best option, until he got traded, saw that we got multiple picks, at least one of them in the lottery, plus cap space and a player capable of being a solid contributer, and I came around to feeling that not only could we replace Eddy but also make further additions that we would've needed to make even if we still had Eddy but which i think would've been harder to make.
> 
> I'm gonna try to make that the last time I take the time typing up a (re)statement of my opinion about Eddy Curry. I'm ready to move on. Anybody else?


I'll be ready to move on when there's some solid evidence to suggest that getting rid of Curry was a good idea. 

Note: shrilling repeating "But the Cap Space!" "Oh, the Flexibility!" "The Knicks Suck!" "How Can You Say This Draft Sucks?" over and over again does not, in my mind, constitute solid evidence. It's a ****ty draft, it's a ****ty FA pool, and our GM doesn't seem like he'll consolidate some (not all) of those assets for an established NBA star.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

you know what guys, babble is right. (and i am as guilty as the next guy for posting in this thread)

i'm gonna lock this sucker up for a few days and see if we can't redirect the attention of our conversation back to the bulls. please PM me or another mod if this is a problem.

miz


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

It's spelled GB, but pronounced "jib"


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Thanks for bringing the thread back! I'm primarily just an interested reader, but I like to tune in every day.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Interesting location!

Glad it's back too.


As I'm studying the various Knicks boards and following the game on NBA.com, the feeling is that, at least tonight, the team has laid down and quit on Coach Brown.

Perhaps this is what AD was referencing in his statements as he left...


----------



## giantkiller7

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

He's the worst possible fit for that team. He wants them to play team ball like the Pistons when they're really just a bunch of self-centered, garbage-time players that don't show up until the game's out of hand, and then pad their stats.


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> I'll be ready to move on when there's some solid evidence to suggest that getting rid of Curry was a good idea.
> 
> Note: shrilling repeating "But the Cap Space!" "Oh, the Flexibility!" "The Knicks Suck!" "How Can You Say This Draft Sucks?" over and over again does not, in my mind, constitute solid evidence. It's a ****ty draft, it's a ****ty FA pool, and our GM doesn't seem like he'll consolidate some (not all) of those assets for an established NBA star.


Whatever. I think the real question was, will Eddy be able to play, or won't he?

I think a lot of us wanted to somehow feel good about the trade, like any trade. But I think 99% of us not named bullsville wanted Eddy back.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Both Brown and the assistant coach Herb Williams addressed their players' effort after the game, and Curry said softly: "We've got to get tougher, we can't continue to let teams embarrass us. That's the bad part, we've heard this before. We've just got to get it done."
> 
> As the Knicks try to absorb Brown's relentless style of instruction, Isiah Thomas, the team's president, is still searching for what type of players his coach really wants on his roster.
> 
> "He wanted me to write down what kind of makeup of the team we would like and what kind of guards, forwards, centers," Brown said. "I told him, 'I evaluate every day with my staff and I would be happy to do that.' We both want to see us win and not for the short range."
> 
> Thomas is not willing to sacrifice the future. He continues to have discussions with teams to upgrade his roster, but for now, he does not waver on one point. He will not trade the rookie power forward Channing Frye.


2 questions:

1. Does that mean that Eddy is now no longer 'untouchable'?
2. Doesn't "Write down what kind of makeup of the team we would like" tell you that Isaiah didn't really talk with Brown before hiring him?

nytimes.com


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I don't think this thread belongs in "Anything but Basketball" -- it's defintiely basketball conversation. Judging from my one foray onto the Knick board, I don't think they'll take it. i do think it belongs on the main Bull board, though. Just like with the "Jamal Update" (which has strangely disappeared!) and the "Eddy Curry is a god" threads, if people are not interested, they should not read.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> I'll be ready to move on when there's some solid evidence to suggest that getting rid of Curry was a good idea.


There is not solid evidence. We have to see who we sign, draft, and possibly trade for and then see how that team pans out.


----------



## giantkiller7

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> I don't think this thread belongs in "Anything but Basketball" -- it's defintiely basketball conversation. Judging from my one foray onto the Knick board, I don't think they'll take it. i do think it belongs on the main Bull board, though. Just like with the "Jamal Update" (which has strangely disappeared!) and the "Eddy Curry is a god" threads, if people are not interested, they should not read.


People actually felt bad about giving up Jamal? :dead:


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Babble-On said:


> Is having the same argument over and over for months considered enjoyable by some of you guys?




When it's not bordering on the extreme, this topic can be fun. But when it's overly agenda based (and that works both ways), it is tedious.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ShamBulls said:


> When it's not bordering on the extreme, this topic can be fun. But when it's overly agenda based (and that works both ways), it is tedious.


Not sure if you're including me in the "agenda based" faction, but I have been accused several times of being an Eddy Curry hater simply because of my supposed unbridled love for John Paxson. Truth of the matter is I've never really liked Eddy Curry as a player. In fact, my first post on bbb.net (dated 12-29-04, way before Curry-Gate) was a criticsm of Curry. It's pretty much how I feel about him today:



> The faster Eddy goes, the better off we'll be in the long term. For all the flack Nocioni gets regarding his out-of-control play (and it's well deserved), Eddy Curry leads all Centers in TO per 48 min. He doesn’t rebound, he’s a turn style on defense, and is, for the most part, an ineffective 4th quarter/“crunch time” scorer. He’s a decent player to have for $3-4M, but for his contract demands, Curry is an albatross in waiting.


http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1761370#post1761370

There's some really interesting stuff in that thread, for example, ScottMay's comments:


> I agree. I've waffled in the past (like Paxson), but Curry needs to be traded to a Western Conference team. That's my story and now I'm sticking to it.


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Not sure if you're including me in the "agenda based" faction, but I have been accused several times of being an Eddy Curry hater simply because of my supposed unbridled love for John Paxson. Truth of the matter is I've never really liked Eddy Curry as a player. In fact, my first post on bbb.net (dated 12-29-04, way before Curry-Gate) was a criticsm of Curry. It's pretty much how I feel about him today:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1761370#post1761370
> 
> There's some really interesting stuff in that thread, for example, ScottMay's comments:




I deliberately mentioned no names. Don't read anything into that. I said nothing.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


..


----------



## TripleDouble

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> ..


Case in point?


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> There's some really interesting stuff in that thread, for example, ScottMay's comments:


My first and foremost concern here has always been that the Bulls get back to the very highest level of the NBA -- not the success of individual players, not personal agendas with other posters, etc. 

I've never tried to hide the fact that I was frequently frustrated with Curry, even to the extent that I wanted him traded away if a good opportunity presented itself. However, with the team's success last year, it became very clear to me that he provided certain essential skills that no one else on the team -- a team composed of non-superstar role players, each with one or more critical flaw -- could.

End of story. I'll no longer argue the point that losing Eddy has hurt the team in the short term -- to me, it's self-evident.

While I do disagree with Paxdorf's decision to trade Curry, I think that what they got out of it was, in fact, a good opportunity. I am obviously on the less-than-sanguine side when it comes to what we'll get out of the draft and (especially) the 2006 FAs, though, which is why I've pressed Paxson to swing for the fences and get a player like Pierce.

Here's the key thing: regardless of how we got here, we're back to lucky pennies in Secaucus and sending Benny the Bull out to O'Hare to great FAs and all the rest of it. I thought we were done with that for a while, and it sucks.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ScottMay said:


> Here's the key thing: regardless of how we got here, we're back to lucky pennies in Secaucus and sending Benny the Bull out to O'Hare to great FAs and all the rest of it. I thought we were done with that for a while, and it sucks.


But isn't "how we got here" important to keep in mind? We're not at the top of the lottery because we're going to lose 65 games, and we didn't have to endure 65 losses to create our cap space. I'm the first to admit that I misjudged this year's team and I am disappointed that we're not looking like a playoff team right now, but I fail to see how having those avenues of improvement available to us can be seen as a bad thing and I don't see our record as a direct reflection on the fact that we've created those options (as I insinuated above). That seems to me like an excessively negative way to look at things. I understand your skepticism about whether our additions this offseason will make us a true contender (I share it somewhat), but isn't it still better to have options than not?


----------



## Sham

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Curry just passed out of a double tem with a bullet pass into the hands of the cutter.

Jesus.

Frye missed it so he didn't get the assist, but it was still amazing to see this out of him. For maybe the fifth time ever.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Another embarassing loss by the Knicks tonight. 110-100 Hornets win.

Our hero:
29 min
2-9 FG
7-12 FT
7 REB
0 BLK
3 TO
11 PTS

New York 14-35
Charlotte 14-37


----------



## giantkiller7

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> Another embarassing loss by the Knicks tonight. 110-100 Hornets win.
> 
> Our hero:
> 29 min
> 2-9 FG
> 7-12 FT
> 7 REB
> 0 BLK
> 3 TO
> 11 PTS
> 
> New York 14-35
> Charlotte 14-37


Sucks he gets the line twice as much as the entire Bulls team usually does...


----------



## dkg1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Man are things in a pathetic state in NY. I would love to have an inside _offensive_ threat like Eddy, but I sure don't miss his defensive and rebounding ineptitude. LB having to switch to a zone? If he thinks EC's having trouble rebounding now, wait till he tries ("tries" being key here) rebounding out of a zone.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/390429p-331217c.html


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Man are things in a pathetic state in NY. I would love to have an inside offensive threat like Eddy, but I sure don't miss his defensive and rebounding ineptitude. LB having to switch to a zone? If he thinks EC's having trouble rebounding now, wait till he tries ("tries" being key here) rebounding out of a zone.


Based on the Knicks games I've watched this year it appears that Curry's defense and rebounding have improved a bit. He's still not even average for an NBA center in those categories, but he's better than last year. 

On the other hand, Eddie's ability to pass out of double teams has not improved at all. Opposing teams soon remember that with aggressively double-teaming they can effectively remove him from the game. The effect is demoralizing for the Knicks offense, which is currently built around an inside-out game centered on Curry.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Stephon Marbury is definitely out until the All- Star break with a sprained left shoulder, and Larry Brown did not appear to be very happy about how he found out.
> 
> Brown said he discovered it after Marbury told reporters, who told a team public relations official, who told the coach.
> 
> "I heard he said he was out until (after the) All-Star break," Brown said before last night's game. "So I don't have to answer it any more. That's what I heard. So, he's out until All- Star break, and we'll evaluate him after the All-Star break."
> 
> Marbury and Brown do not have great communication, ever since their flareup in Orlando and Milwaukee just after Christmas. That was eventually smoothed over, and Marbury was playing his best basketball of the season until he was hurt Jan. 15.
> 
> But Brown seemed irritated that Marbury told reporters before he informed the coach or the training staff about his decision, even though a week earlier the coach said he would leave the decision up to the guard.


http://www.nj.com/knicks/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/113963697880740.xml&coll=1

Funny Pic:


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Moved from http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3172977#post3172977&conly= to this moderator approved thread.



> It's become pretty clear that the Knicks wouldn't have traded for Crawford in August 2004 if Brown had been the coach then. Yet Brown yesterday sounded almost empathetic when asked about Crawford's play.
> 
> "You have to understand he's been asked to play an entirely different role than he's played in the past," Brown said. "I looked at his stats and he took more three-pointers by two-thirds than he did foul shots before. He had no mid-range game, he never drove it to the goal, he never had to guard the best player.
> 
> "All that has changed. It's a real learning curve."
> 
> The fact that Crawford is struggling hasn't been lost on his teammates. Even Jalen Rose, who has been with the team for only three games, has noticed, and relates it to his struggles when he was younger.



One day Brown is going to come out and say something that totally pins the blame for the struggles of his players on their start in the Bulls organization. You mark my words we'll hear it:

"I really like Curry...you just wonder what kind of player he'd be today if he had a different introduction to the league. I mean, how many players went through there and didn't meet their potential? Jamal, Eddy, the Fizer kid...it really makes you wonder..."


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> It's become pretty clear that the Knicks wouldn't have traded for Crawford in August 2004 if Brown had been the coach then. Yet Brown yesterday sounded almost empathetic when asked about Crawford's play.
> 
> *"You have to understand he's been asked to play an entirely different role than he's played in the past," Brown said. "I looked at his stats and he took more three-pointers by two-thirds than he did foul shots before. He had no mid-range game, he never drove it to the goal, he never had to guard the best player.*
> 
> "All that has changed. It's a real learning curve."
> 
> The fact that Crawford is struggling hasn't been lost on his teammates. Even Jalen Rose, who has been with the team for only three games, has noticed, and relates it to his struggles when he was younger.


Funny thing is, he's been asked to play that exact same role here and was unable to do it. Now he's not here, and NY is wondering why he still can't do the things in NY that he couldn't do in Chicago. Isaiah must have never done his homework. Knick should have known what they were getting in Crawdaddy and Curry -- two players who could not do what they were asked to do here.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Wynn said:


> Funny thing is, he's been asked to play that exact same role here and was unable to do it. Now he's not here, and NY is wondering why he still can't do the things in NY that he couldn't do in Chicago. Isaiah must have never done his homework. Knick should have known what they were getting in Crawdaddy and Curry -- two players who could not do what they were asked to do here.


Can you say "journeyman"?


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

a must share!
















> Again and again: There is no plan here. There is just the latest plan, the one with Jalen Rose and Steve Francis (on the books for nearly $50 million after this season) in it, that gets the Knicks to the next plan.
> 
> You want to believe that Thomas and Brown are a real team, on the same page, have an actual future together, go right ahead. Congratulations, you are hereby qualified to do James Dolan's job.
> 
> You want to believe that there is so much talent in the room that all this losing is more the fault of the coach than the guy who picked the players before the coach got here? Have at it. Larry Brown is making more money than anybody besides Phil Jackson, he came here with his eyes wide open, he's a big boy. This is a hardball city. Brown has to wear a helmet like everybody else.
> 
> But you tell me who else on this planet signs Jerome James for $30 million? Who else gives $50 million to Jamal Crawford and trades Kurt Thomas for Quentin Richardson, who can't jump and had a bad back before he got here? Who traded an unprotected lottery pick that might turn out to be the No. 1 pick in whole draft for Eddy Curry? There is no point guard in the house, there is no power forward, and guess what? We may have been a little premature sending Channing Frye to the Hall of Fame.




http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/393979p-334044c.html


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Will Francis make the Knicks better in the short run? Sure. He can score and actually rebound the ball. Sure he is an improvement on Jamal Crawford, Quentin Richardson and Nate Robinson, an improvement on any perimeter player the Knicks had on the roster. But the idea that Francis is part of any long-range vision here, any long-range plan, is for suckers.


Its almost like he's saying that making a move for a short term improvement at the expense of the longterm is _not a good idea_. Wow. What a concept.



Lupica is one of my favorite sports writers. Thanks for the link, Miz.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Mike Lupica said:


> But you tell me who else on this planet signs Jerome James for $30 million? Who else gives $50 million to Jamal Crawford and trades Kurt Thomas for Quentin Richardson, who can't jump and had a bad back before he got here? Who traded an unprotected lottery pick that might turn out to be the No. 1 pick in whole draft for Eddy Curry?



you know what? that's baiting pure and simple. let's keep it on the topic of the knicks utter ineptitude! thanks, miz


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Its almost like he's saying that making a move for a short term improvement at the expense of the longterm is _not a good idea_. Wow. What a concept.
> 
> 
> 
> Lupica is one of my favorite sports writers. Thanks for the link, Miz.



There's a lot of fascinating reading in the New York papers this morning, especially the Daily News.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Its almost like he's saying that making a move for a short term improvement at the expense of the longterm is _not a good idea_. Wow. What a concept.
> 
> 
> 
> Lupica is one of my favorite sports writers. Thanks for the link, Miz.


But at least Isiah's phone definitely doesn't have cobwebs on it! :angel:


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ViciousFlogging said:


> But at least Isiah's phone definitely doesn't have cobwebs on it! :angel:


Zeke's phone...


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Teh funneh is missing.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Just to be devil's advocate for a moment...

If Larry Brown can still think outside the box, the Knicks could be a very interesting team.
No, they can't play half court defense, and their half court offense is defendable.
But the Knicks have an incredible number of very talented ball handlers who can run the open court extremely well and have good to great open court passing ability.

If the Knicks ran a full court fast break offense and a gambling, full court trapping defense for four quarters by rotating their many ball handlers they could wear a lot of teams out -- and score a ton of points. 
Curry and Fry are young and spry enough to keep up with this tempo. In fact, it is in the open court that each of these young bigs look their best.
Extreme up-tempo, high scoring ball games would be entertaining to watch, and might result in a few more wins.

The players would be happy to see their scoring and assist totals stay high. 
New Yorker's would be happy to brag about their powerful offensive team. 
Maybe even the NBA would be happy and consider scrapping remaining illegal defense rules and passing some rules that reward up-tempo strategies.

If I was Brown I'd give it a try. 
There's no way to turn the present team into a Detroit clone. 
Might as well have a little fun.


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

You're right though, they need to speed things up, pity Brown isn't a coach to do that. And unfortunately they've invested so much money in him, that it's doubtful they can remove him.

Great coach, wrong players, I wonder if he has it in him to change.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



step said:


> You're right though, they need to speed things up, pity Brown isn't a coach to do that. And unfortunately they've invested so much money in him, that it's doubtful they can remove him.
> 
> Great coach, wrong players, I wonder if he has it in him to change.


Not just that, but these players just aren't accustomed to sharing the ball. Guys like Nash and Kidd are so successful in these up-tempo systems because they are unrivaled in both passing AND unselfishness. Rose, Marbury, Francis...these guys do not like sharing the ball. And it's not like these are young players whose behavior you can change/modify.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The Sports Guys readers on the trade:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/blog/index?name=simmons 

Great stuff there, really great:



> "Steve Francis to the Knicks -- unbelievable. I've been trying to think of an analogy that equates to what Isiah is doing to the woeful Knicks and I've got it. The Knicks are his scab and he keeps picking at it. He looks at it, knows it's not healed, picks it … and it bleeds again. Unfortunately, now it's infected, beyond repair, and it's time to amputate."
> JCA, Richmond, VA


----------



## lougehrig

*OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

Way to go Isiah. Luckily Steph, Francis, Jalen, Jamal and Eddy are defensive stoppers.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

20-4 I enjoy watching the Knicks because they never let you down.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

living in nyc i can view this game on msg, yes and espn.

i'm picking marv on the nets call. for another ten minutes anyway.


:biggrin:

"and you can hear the boos from the crowd as the knicks take another timeout"


yikes. nets up 22-6



marv is not being kind to either larry or IT. lol.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

:eek8:



Woe!!!


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

gotten closer 27-19.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*



mizenkay said:


> living in nyc i can view this game on msg, yes and espn.
> 
> i'm picking marv on the nets call. for another ten minutes anyway.
> 
> 
> :biggrin:
> 
> "and you can hear the boos from the crowd as the knicks take another timeout"
> 
> 
> yikes. nets up 22-6
> 
> 
> 
> marv is not being kind to either larry or IT. lol.


Marv should be doing the Knicks game!!!! It's a shame that he isn't - didn't Dolan get rid of him because he thought Marv was too critical or something?


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*



narek said:


> Marv should be doing the Knicks game!!!! It's a shame that he isn't - didn't Dolan get rid of him because he thought Marv was too critical or something?



yessss, that's precisely why dolan got rid of him. lol.


:smilewink


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

32-24 Nets. At least NY came back and is staying even with them. Its not a blow out. 

Marbury has 1 shot attempt. Francis 6, Rose 5.


----------



## Zeb

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*



mizenkay said:


> yessss, that's precisely why dolan got rid of him. lol.
> 
> 
> :smilewink


So it had nothing to do with Marv wearing women's panties? :eek8:


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

44-35 Nets at HT. 

44 pts is not bad for defense. 

JC played 7 minutes. So I assume his game will suffer with Francis there? 0-2. 

Eddy had a nice first half. 5 pts 6 rebounds a steal and a block! 

Knicks are shooting 36%. Francis has 4 pts 3 assists.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

The Knicks look like crap. Worse than the Bulls.

Francis looks like he's lost his entire game.

Curry doing his thing, but too many stupid fouls, although some are BS.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*



mizenkay said:


> yessss, that's precisely why dolan got rid of him. lol.
> 
> 
> :smilewink


Truckstop hooker ,from downtown...YES! And it counts.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*



kukoc4ever said:


> The Knicks look like crap. Worse than the Bulls.


And the nominees for Master of the Obvious are...


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

Frye is going to have a very nice career! He is leading the knicks 9 pts 7 rebounds. 

Shot distribution has evened out a little. 51-42 Nets with 6 minutes left in third. JC has not come in yet. 

Shot attempts. Rose 5, Marbury 6 Francis 8. Francise has 5 pts 4 assists and 4 rebounds.


----------



## step

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

Side note, Atlanta is ahead of Indiana in OT, should give them more spacing between themselves and the Knicks.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> And the nominees for Master of the Obvious are...


Its just sad that I have 2 NBA games to choose and both are horrible.

I should just get League Pass.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*



kukoc4ever said:


> Its just sad that I have 2 NBA games to choose and both are horrible.
> 
> I should just get League Pass.


Tell me about it!


----------



## lougehrig

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

Curry is a joke. He is done improving. Did you see that missed dunk, followed by letting Kristic with an open 3 make? He is terrible on defense. Has one offensive move. He is lazy. He is 2-8, 4 TO, 3 pf, in 27 minutes. Remind you the likes of Cliff Robinson and Kristic and Jason Collins have been guarding him tonight.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

73-55 NJ. Rose has 13! 

JC has played 12 minutes and taken 3 shots. I am not gloating over this. I feel for the guy. He wanted to go to NY to play and now he his minutes will be cut back.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

EDIT: I was somewhat apprehensive about the Steve Francis acquisition, because, even though it didn't make a lot of sense in a lot of ways, there was still a decent possibility that it could have worked out, but tonight has done a bit to quell my fears. Let's hope they keep it up.

Go Knicks!!! :jam:


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

88-76 nets. 

Kidd has 9 assists. The entire knicks team has 10. 

Curry is having a very nice game.


----------



## remlover

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*



truebluefan said:


> 88-76 nets.
> 
> Kidd has 9 assists. The entire knicks team has 10.
> 
> Curry is having a very nice game.


Did you watch the game or did you just follow the game via the boxscore (not trying to sound confrontational). I just thought Curry played a horrible game.

No worries, Knicks lose, Hawks win...good for the BUllies


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*



remlover said:


> Did you watch the game or did you just follow the game via the boxscore (not trying to sound confrontational). I just thought Curry played a horrible game.
> 
> No worries, Knicks lose, Hawks win...good for the BUllies


No I never watched it. When I said Eddy had a nice game I figured someone would say he could have shot better. He could have. 

Knicks lost by 4. Did they make a comeback during garbage time or was it an effort that came up short?


----------



## lougehrig

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*



truebluefan said:


> No I never watched it. When I said Eddy had a nice game I figured someone would say he could have shot better. He could have.
> 
> Knicks lost by 4. Did they make a comeback during garbage time or was it an effort that came up short?


Garbage time comeback. Curry was brutal for the first 27 minutes at least. I stopped watching after that.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

I saw some of the game, and Curry's defense was horrenous. (And I'm not one of those types who's always harping on Curry's defense, because he isn't as bad as people say.) Krstic was left open all night for his bread-and-butter mid-range game. I'm pretty sure it was Curry who was supposed to step out on him, yet failed to do so. Krstic shot like 11-11, I think.


----------



## wizardsfan2006

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*



Zeb said:


> 20-4 I enjoy watching the Knicks because they never let you down.


no they don't


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

Snapper Jones really doesn't like the Knicks much, does he? I watched parts of this, parts of the 76ers/Bucks game (and if Skiles had drawn up that half-court play coming out of the time out - the Bucks would have scored - such a lame play!), and the only real conclusion from all of this is that there are a lot of teams flirting with being mediocre. Heck, some have done more than flirt.


----------



## giantkiller7

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

I love listening to Marv do nets games. "We'll be back on... YESSSS!"

Just throwing this out there: I don't see how people can look at what Eddy's done this season and still complain about how huge of a loss it was. It wasn't Eddy himself as much as it was inside scoring at all, which he brought, I know, but the problem would have been avoided if we had brought in a capable FA... but either way, when you say you want Eddy back you most likely mean low-post scoring, not Eddy himself, I hope.


----------



## UMfan83

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

Why do I get the feeling some on this board watched this game more then the Bulls game


----------



## lougehrig

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*



UMfan83 said:


> Why do I get the feeling some on this board watched this game more then the Bulls game


I DVRed the Bulls game and watched the Knicks first. Gotta make sure Eddy and Jamal and Jalen are getting us the first pick in the draft.


----------



## Vintage

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*



UMfan83 said:


> Why do I get the feeling some on this board watched this game more then the Bulls game



Here in Milwaukee, only two games were available....Bucks/76ers or Knicks/Nets...

Bulls game wasn't televised.....


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*



narek said:


> Marv should be doing the Knicks game!!!! It's a shame that he isn't - didn't Dolan get rid of him because he thought Marv was too critical or something?


Marv was tooo...something.

http://www.courttv.com/archive/casefiles/marv/marvalbert.html

Once you get a picture in your head of Marv, wearing women's underwear, biting and forcing oral sex, and demanding M-M-F threesomes, that is a pretty tough image to scrub out of your brain.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*

geez tom. lol.

oh, and isiah din't even show his face at msg last night. good thing since the "FIRE THOMAS" chants were apparently quite loud!

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/394606p-334564c.html


and with that, i think i will merge this into the "meltdown" thread!


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Marv was tooo...something.
> 
> http://www.courttv.com/archive/casefiles/marv/marvalbert.html
> 
> Once you get a picture in your head of Marv, wearing women's underwear, biting and forcing oral sex, and demanding M-M-F threesomes, that is a pretty tough image to scrub out of your brain.


And punctuating such demands with commentary like, "Can you imAgine . . . how inCREDible a scenario . . . THAT would BE," no less.

I fully believe in every man and woman's right to fly his or her freak flag (so long as no one gets hurt and there aren't any minors involved), but I always thought the flip side of that was if you got busted, you got busted, period. Marv should thank his lucky garters that he's successfully gotten back his career.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: New look Knicks down 10-0 to start game!*



ScottMay said:


> And punctuating such demands with commentary like, "Can you imAgine . . . how inCREDible a scenario . . . THAT would BE," no less.
> 
> I fully believe in every man and woman's right to fly his or her freak flag (so long as no one gets hurt and there aren't any minors involved), but I always thought the flip side of that was if you got busted, you got busted, period. Marv should thank his lucky garters that he's successfully gotten back his career.


A specTACular move!


----------



## lougehrig

*OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*

Get's better by the night!


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*

And 38 points to the Wizards. LB must be a happy camper, no doubt!

Our friend and best big man (this side of Shaq) with no points and 1 rebound.

Too bad Kobe already played two times against the Knicks, imagine what he could do against these guys.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*

Arenas looks unstoppable . . . I'm having a bad flashback to last year's first round.


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*

In which game did Arenas score 23 against the Bulls in one quarter? Game 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6?


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*



El Chapu said:


> In which game did Arenas score 23 against the Bulls in one quarter? Game 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6?


:laugh:

My bad. We should take great pride in having not let him score 23 points in a quarter, our inability to stop him when it mattered be damned.

:laugh:

It was just a general comment, El Chapu. Please tell the Paxolyte defense system to stand down and enjoy the rest of your evening.


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*



ScottMay said:


> :laugh:
> 
> My bad. We should take great pride in having not let him score 23 points in a quarter, our inability to stop him when it mattered be damned.
> 
> :laugh:
> 
> It was just a general comment, El Chapu. Please tell the Paxolyte defense system to stand down and enjoy the rest of your evening.


No, when it mattered (game 6) he had a terrible night, so I dont know about that "inability" to stop him. Just dont want to spread the nonsense. Better stick to facts and numbers.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*



El Chapu said:


> No, when it mattered (game 6) he had a terrible night, so I dont know about that "inability" to stop him. Just dont want to spread the nonsense. Better stick to facts and numbers.


Exactly.

Washington 4, Chicago 2


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*



ScottMay said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Washington 4, Chicago 2


But you were talking Arenas, not Washington......mmmm better dont answer instead of making it worse.


----------



## BG7

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*



El Chapu said:


> But you were talking Arenas, not Washington......mmmm better dont answer instead of making it worse.


But Arenas' good game are what helped put 3 of those 4 on the board, and he had the clutch shot.


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*



sloth said:


> But Arenas' good game are what helped put 3 of those 4 on the board, and he had the clutch shot.


A clutch shot doesnt mean being unstoppable. Its one shot, may go in or out. One play.


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*

For those with not so good memory, look at Arenas incredible numbers against Chicago (to prove haters wrong, again):

http://www.nba.com/playoffs2005/series_chiwas.html

LOL he averaged the same number of points per game as he managed tonight against the Knicks in just one quarter: 23. Talk about the inability to stop one very good offensive player!

It backfired :laugh:


----------



## Chops

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*

71-45 Wizards at halftime. Arenas has 33.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*

Yikes, 71 points at the half?? Man, this looks to be a pretty good paddywhacking.


----------



## ChiBron

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*

wrong thread.


----------



## Cocoa Rice Krispies

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*

It's good to see that we've Changed the Tone of the Board (tm). This place is getting less and less fun to visit every week.

Sorry for the OT post.


----------



## MikeDC

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*

This one's getting merged into the other Knicks thread, which is, by the way, in the OT section for a reason.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*



El Chapu said:


> For those with not so good memory, look at Arenas incredible numbers against Chicago (to prove haters wrong, again):
> 
> http://www.nba.com/playoffs2005/series_chiwas.html
> 
> LOL he averaged the same number of points per game as he managed tonight against the Knicks in just one quarter: 23. Talk about the inability to stop one very good offensive player!
> 
> It backfired :laugh:


As you said in your attempt to downplay Arenas's series-clinching hoop, sometimes the shots go in, sometimes they don't. Arenas got any shot he wanted against us, which is the key thing. Bad jib or not, he's far better than anyone we've got.


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*



ScottMay said:


> As you said in your attempt to downplay Arenas's series-clinching hoop, sometimes the shots go in, sometimes they don't. Arenas got any shot he wanted against us, which is the key thing. Bad jib or not, he's far better than anyone we've got.


We are not discussing that, but keep trying....its fun for me and for others.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*



El Chapu said:


> We are not discussing that, but keep trying....its fun for me and for others.


Yeah, you're right. We held Arenas completely in check and lost four games in a row for entirely different reasons.

It's been fun, El Chapu! 

(This has been an emergency test of the Knee-Jerk Paxolyte Defense System. This was only a test.)


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: OT: Stephon, Stevie, Jalen hold Arenas to 23 points in 1st Quarter!*



ScottMay said:


> Yeah, you're right. We held Arenas completely in check and lost four games in a row for entirely different reasons.
> 
> It's been fun, El Chapu!
> 
> (This has been an emergency test of the Knee-Jerk Paxolyte Defense System. This was only a test.)


Sad thing is that probably you are a mid 30s, mid 40s guy, and still have this kind of attitude. 

Anyone that reads this thread will draw their own conclusions. 

Goodbye. Thanks for the laughs.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

This is an interesting tidbit from Vescey which probably hasn't any truth to it:

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/64231.htm



> February 26, 2006 -- TURNS out Larry Brown got confused; he thought Isiah Thomas told him he could get Bevo Francis.
> How can Stevie Knicks and Stephon Marbury be the "most expensive backcourt in league history" as everyone keeps saying/writing, when the salaries of Penny Hardaway and Allan Houston are larger than that of Francis? As I recall, both occasionally were hooked on Stephonics.
> 
> It's not all bad news for Thomas. The Indiana University coaching position comes open after this season. Before he came to New York, Thomas had serious conversations with IU officials about replacing Mike Davis. Thomas can't manufacture a more flawless face-saving excuse to bolt the Knicks than to accept (if offered) his "dream job."
> 
> Imagine if Thomas does in Bloomington what he's done in the shadow of Bloomingdale's! The Hoosiers figure to plummet to Division III in about a month-and-a-half


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



narek said:


> This is an interesting tidbit from Vescey which probably hasn't any truth to it:
> 
> http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/64231.htm


I love it when Vescey breaks out the Bevo Francis reference!

(He scored 113 points in a game for Rio Grande, an NAIA school in Indiana, in the 1950s, and averaged close to 50 ppg for his career.)

I'm surprised I didn't think of Isiah when we were discussing Skiles and IU. I could actually see that happening.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/62487.htm



> The players don't seem to care about winning anymore. Two Knicks -- without mentioning names -- munched down on Chicken McNuggets and McDonald's fries an hour before tip-off Saturday night in Washington.


Is there any doubt as to which two players this article is talking about?


----------



## remlover

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/62487.htm
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any doubt as to which two players this article is talking about?


The Hamburgler and Grimmice? (Where is Shamadoo when you need him!)


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Just watching the Knicks get wiped out by San Antonio. The Spurs are barely breaking a sweat in this contest. In part this is due to obvious deficiencies in their interior defense.

It occurs to me that the Knicks miss Antonio Davis as much as we do. 

AD is clearly a very underrated big. Without him the Knicks have virtually no interior defense. 
The drop-off the Bulls have experienced this year also seems likely to be due more to the loss of AD than the loss of Curry. 
The test of this hypothesis is the performance of the Toronto Raptors. Since AD joined them they have been a much better team.

Perhaps we should seriously consider persuading AD to rejoin our team next year.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Oh come on McBulls, you know damned well that our problems are all because we don't have Eddy Curry, they have nothing to do with AD. [/SARCASM]


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Is anyone watching the Knicks game?

I have Nazr Mohammad on my fantasy team, and he has 3 fouls after 1 minute played. Can anyone tell me what happened to him? I can tell by the box score that he started the contest.

Thx.


----------



## bullsville

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

With 2:47 left in the game, the Spurs are shooting .657 from the field and they lead by 29.

But at least Eddy is having a nice game, hell he even had an assist, believe it or not.

19 min
4-5 fg
5-6 ft
5 reb 
1 ast
2 to
1 stl 
0 blk
13 pts

That should be good for his PER.


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Here are some Knicks fans opinion on Curry:

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=486398

If this shouldnt be posted (coming from that site), please delete.


----------



## spongyfungy

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Knicks coach Larry Brown said it looked like his team lost their focus after drawing close.
> 
> "Once we cut the lead to seven, it's like I never saw a pass after that," Brown said. "We have a lot of young guys who maybe don't fully understand the importance of the little things."


 http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2006022724










]
It's the little things that make up life. [_throws a grenade_]</pre>


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



El Chapu said:


> Here are some Knicks fans opinion on Curry:
> 
> http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=486398
> 
> If this shouldnt be posted (coming from that site), please delete.


Why should we delete it?


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

John Hollinger on how Thomas has made great deals for other teams:

http://www.nysun.com/article/28216



> It's clear the Knicks are a horrible team, but what's less clear, at times, is why. The Knicks are living proof of the old maxim about winning all the battles but losing the war. Nearly any time a high-profile player has come on the trade or free-agent market, the Knicks have been heavily involved in the bidding, and more often than not they've "won." If you just look at the personnel exchanged, it seems inconceivable that the Knicks could end up worse than they were when Isiah Thomas took over.
> 
> For instance, trading a bunch of slop to the Suns for Marbury seemed like a no-brainer, just as sending Penny Hardaway and Trevor Ariza to Orlando for Steve Francis is completely one-sided in terms of talent. Similarly, trading Othella Harrington and other scraps for Jamal Crawford, dealing Vin Baker and Moochie Norris for Maurice Taylor and a first-round pick that became David Lee, and swapping Antonio Davis for Jalen Rose and a no.1 all were to New York's advantage.
> 
> Despite all these successes, the math hasn't added up, for a few reasons. First, regardless of how much he's spent, Thomas has never brought in a genuine superstar, either home grown or via trade. Without a Dirk Nowitzki to serve as the centerpiece, it hasn't mattered how many millions he's blown on what is essentially a supporting cast with nothing to support.


Hollinger then dissects most of the trades Thomas has made:




> MILWAUKEE A* key reason the Bucks are back in playoff shape is because they were able to drop Tim Thomas's contract on the Knicks and get the more productive Keith Van Horn in return. * *Because Van Horn, in turn, interested the Mavs, the Bucks were able to make a follow-up trade that got them under the salary cap this summer. * With that money, the small market Bucks signed Bobby Simmons, kept Michael Redd and Dan Gadzuric, and are making a playoff run while keeping costs under control.
> 
> CHICAGO Isiah is talking about making a run at Kevin Garnett this summer, *but thanks to his deals, the team with the real shot at Garnett is Chicago. Because Thomas is the one paying Jamal Crawford and Eddy Curry instead of the Bulls, Chicago has enough room under the cap this summer to comfortably fit Garnett's contract -* and perhaps that of free agent Peja Stojakovic as well. And because Thomas grossly overpaid in the Curry trade and failed to protect the first-round pick, Chicago can dangle a high lottery pick in front of Minnesota as part of the booty.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Wow. Listening to Hollinger, you'd almost think Paxson WASN'T a drooling buffoon, intent on sabotaging the franchise.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Hollinger said:


> Despite all these successes, the math hasn't added up, for a few reasons. First, regardless of how much he's spent, Thomas has never brought in a genuine superstar, either home grown or via trade. Without a Dirk Nowitzki to serve as the centerpiece, it hasn't mattered how many millions he's blown on what is essentially a supporting cast with nothing to support.


I thought Eddy was the centerpiece/core of the Knicks team. Hmmmmm. Weird.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


>


Not for another year!


----------



## giusd

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Well i think we all know how the knicks are not going to make the playoffs (you know who you are) and the last four games have to be the worst basketball i have ever seen. This team plays like five guys who have nothing in common except themselfs. And the rough part of the schedule is not over for a couple of weeks. I think this team is head for way less than 25 wins and will be luck to get 22 wins. Larry Brown looks ready to jump out the window and my guess is this team has not even hit bottom yet.


I think the bulls are looking at a top five pick and maybe 1 or 2. Thanks IT.

david


----------



## spongyfungy

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

If I were the Knicks, I would blow up the core of veterans right now. 125 million dollars? That's way too much. That's 9 million dollars a win. I mean couldn't the crap post-jordan bulls get 15 wins for much less? I think Isiah could bring in journeymen players and put together a better club. I really feel bad for knick fans though because they don't have a high lottery pick to look forward to.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

team needs jib


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Wow. Listening to Hollinger, you'd almost think Paxson WASN'T a drooling buffoon, intent on sabotaging the franchise.


Now you're just talking crazy!


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Knicks owner Dolan invites Isiah to a meeting in Memphis...



> Isiah Thomas, who planned to fly to Europe on a scouting trip Monday, instead was summoned to San Antonio by team owner James Dolan for a high-level meeting with Larry Brown and the rest of the Madison Square Garden brass to discuss the debacle that is the Knicks, the Newark Star-Ledger is reporting.
> 
> Tuesday in Memphis, it is assumed Thomas will meet with Dolan, Brown, team president and COO Steve Mills, and vice chairman of Madison Square Garden Hank Ratner, where they can discuss the Knicks' performance that has resulted in a 15-41 record.
> 
> Following Monday might's loss to the Spurs, Dolan and Thomas spent a few moments in the locker room and then headed to Memphis in Dolan's private jet, the Star-Ledger reported.
> 
> Dolan makes regular visits to the team's training facility in Westchester, where he meets with Thomas, Brown and Mills. But apparently he didn't want to wait.
> 
> Although the meeting with Thomas was hastily arranged, there are no indications the GM's job is in jeopardy at this point, the Star-Ledger reported. A spokesman for Thomas said he changed his plans himself because he wanted to be with the team in its time of desperation, but another MSG official said Thomas' presence was requested by Dolan, according to the Star-Ledger.
> 
> Dolan had planned to join the team on this trip for several weeks, and Tuesday he plans to address the state of the club.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2347813&campaign=rss&source=NBAHeadlines

Madison Square Garden chairman James Dolan, who is on his annual road trip with the team, watched his team lose 121-93 in San Antonio on Monday. 

Dolan is expected to make a rare public statement about the state of the club Tuesday, The Newark Star Ledger reported in Tuesday's edition. In October, when he last spoke publicly about the team, he was optimistic about the team's prospects and supportive of general manager Isiah Thomas.


----------



## jbulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

A little off topic, but it involves a Knick and I'm curious. If given the choice who would people rather have long term - Channing Frye or Charlie Villanueva. Frye started off the season like a house on fire, but has regressed a bit, while Villanueva's been very steady. Their numbers are remarkably similar:

Frye's averaging 13.4 points, 6 rebounds and .9 assists on 48 percent shooting. Villanueva is at 12.7/5.5/.9, also on 48 percent shooting. Their entire lines are nearly identical, the only big difference comes in free throw percentage. My instinct tells me that Frye is a slightly better defender, but that's not reflected in steals or blocks. Thoughts?


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*













http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/395850p-335547c.html



> If Dolan makes a big show of public support for Thomas today, then he should get it from his own fans after they are done with Thomas Friday night, when the Knicks return home to play the Bulls. Because if Dolan actually buys into this idea that Thomas actually has a plan here, that the Knicks' future is bright, that the Knicks are right where Thomas wants them to be, then his fans should start chanting "Goodbye, Jimmy" when they get tired of chanting "Fire Thomas."
> 
> Dolan does not have to do this, should not do this, will look like a fool of sports if he does, considering the current sorry state of the Knicks. The issue here isn't whether or not he should make his annual road trip surrounded by all his sidemen, have this meeting with the writers.
> 
> The issue is Thomas, and all the moves he has made in the last two years and the money he has spent and the fact that he has turned one of the most famous franchises in sports into the No. 1 joke in professional sports right now. Knick fans constantly say to me, "Can't somebody talk to Dolan?" That's not the problem. People talk to him all the time. His coach now talks to him once a week. But the only person he really listens to is Isiah Thomas, who will say anything these days, about anybody, to save his job.
> 
> Dolan ought to listen to his fans instead. It will be easy to hear them Friday night if he shows up, sits in his usual seat, around the corner from all those players Thomas brought to New York.













http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/62574.htm




> The Knicks continue to spin helplessly out of control, they keep revising their personal-best standards for abject humiliation, they've clearly and officially tuned out the only man in the organization with any competence for his current job, and what do they get yesterday?
> 
> They get a pep talk from James Dolan. They get a pep talk from Isiah Thomas. They're told to keep their spirits up and their focus locked in, to grind their way through the season's final 26 games; if only it were that easy for Knicks fans to do likewise. If only there were a magic speech that could make these stranded souls feel better about the ignominy populating Penn Plaza.
> 
> Actually, there is: James Dolan could prove that he has even a smidgen of savvy about what's befallen his basketball team, he could admit that this starry-eyed experiment of his has been a complete failure, and he could give Isiah 48 hours before changing the locks on his office door.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

There was an 'insiders' report on ESPNs 1 and 10 show earlier. According to him, an executive with knowledge of the situation informed him that Isaiah was summoned yesterday with management intending to terminate his employment with the organization. Instead, Isaiah asked for a 'graceful' out, and was given the remainder of the season to do so.

He will not return as GM next season. According to ESPN's 'insider'.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> There was an 'insiders' report on ESPNs 1 and 10 show earlier. According to him, an executive with knowledge of the situation informed him that Isaiah was summoned yesterday with management intending to terminate his employment with the organization. Instead, Isaiah asked for a 'graceful' out, and was given the remainder of the season to do so.
> 
> He will not return as GM next season. According to ESPN's 'insider'.


If thats true, lets hope that he has screwed the team so bad that it does not matter who they get for GM next year, they get a top 5 pick.


----------



## YearofDaBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I love reading this thread


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Knicks up 5-0 against the Grizz

_First lead they've held in 15 quarters._


----------



## Sigifrith

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I don't know what I love most, Miz's avatar, or IT slowly twisting in the wind. :biggrin:


----------



## dkg1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Eddy already has a rebound


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

you know i'm going on friday. i can't wait. i want to hear those "FIRE THOMAS" chants!

to tell you the truth i hope the knicks somehow pull one out of their butts tonight against memphis. don't want the bulls to be the team to get them off the schneid. when i read somewhere this week that "oh well at least the bulls get to play the knicks soon", i thought, man don't coast into this one. 


the knicks must go down on friday. in flames. 


and thanks for the avatar props, sigifrith. :greatjob:


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



YearofDaBulls said:


> I love reading this thread


ditto. First thing to look at in the morning and last thing to look at at night.

Maybe it's memories of IT walking off the floor after being eliminated in '91.
Maybe it's memories of the phantom foul call on Pippen that stopped us from going to the '94 Finals.
Maybe it's just the arrogance and insularity of the NY media.
Maybe it's the satisfaction of seeing the basketball Yankees fail to buy their way to championships.
Or maybe its the great draft choices the Bulls will be getting for many years.

But the Knicks plight can be counted on to bring a smile to my face this winter 
-- and next winter
-- and the winter after that

Chicagans need something to get us through the cold winters, and nothing warms our hearts like the sporting misfortunes of New York.


----------



## remlover

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> There was an 'insiders' report on ESPNs 1 and 10 show earlier. According to him, an executive with knowledge of the situation informed him that Isaiah was summoned yesterday with management intending to terminate his employment with the organization. Instead, Isaiah asked for a 'graceful' out, and was given the remainder of the season to do so.
> 
> He will not return as GM next season. According to ESPN's 'insider'.


I wonder what Isiah will be doing in the meantime? Maybe locked in a room making fantasy trades. I guess Franchise mode in Video games were made for Isiah.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Gasol just hit a shot with 2.7 seconds left to put memphis up by 2. NY has shot the ball well and should get a good shot at the basket. 

oops. NY lost 101-99.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

So New York actually played a competitive game and Eddy Curry was on the bench for most of it (16 min tonight). Coincidence?


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truebluefan said:


> Gasol just hit a shot with 2.7 seconds left to put memphis up by 2. NY has shot the ball well and should get a good shot at the basket.
> 
> oops. NY lost 101-99.


Ahhh, thats great. Better face them after this heartbreaking (?) loss against Memphis than trying to win consecutive games after a long time. And you know that if they are down big against the Bulls, they will hear it from the crowd. Add Ben Gordon to the equation, and it looks promising...


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



dkg1 said:


> Eddy already has a rebound


Don't blink or you'll miss the other half of his rebounds for the night.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> So New York actually played a competitive game and Eddy Curry was on the bench for most of it (16 min tonight). Coincidence?


With Steph, Stevie, Jalen, Q, and Jamal all out to get theirs, Curry, Frye, Lee, and company won't even be smelling the ball the rest of the season. Surprisingly enough, though, Jackie Butler seems to be emerging as their go to Big....


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/5374340?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=73



> First, he claims that Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis will form a dynamic duo comparable to Walt Frazier-Earl Monroe and Joe Dumars-himself. Next, the gospel according to Isiah is that the organization is collecting high-priced players only as chips so that New York will be able to ante up in the off-season and secure the likes of Kevin Garnett.
> Both proposals seem to be highly improbable. But if the second if these can't be definitively evaluated until the summer, the first can be investigated forthwith.
> 
> So, then, let's reconsider the Knicks' 101-99 loss in Memphis on Wednesday to see how, and if, there's any possibility that Marbury and Francis can indeed co-exist.
> 
> Marbury was the starting point guard and Francis started the game on the bench, and the Knicks came out of the chute playing with more energy, smarts, and unselfishness than they've shown in weeks. And it was Marbury who set the pace, making wonderful passes and unblemished decisions in every possible situation. A pair of scintillating assist-passes to Qyntel Woods cutting backdoor. Setting up a fast-break dunk for Quentin Richardson, then a rim-jammer in tight quarters for Malik Rose. Hey, Marbury even played hustling defense.
> 
> When Francis took the court at 4:19 in the first quarter, he played No. 1 on offense and No. 2 on defense. Within seconds, Francis turned his head on defense, allowing Eddie Jones to make a back-door cut, and forcing him to commit a foul. Indeed, Francis' initial rotation was far from brilliant. He made a swift move into the middle and converted a layup. A few plays later, he ran out, received a long pass, and performed an elementary but impressive dunk. Otherwise, Francis had trouble hanging on to the ball, and was content to let Marbury control the unfolding of the half-court offense. Actually, Francis seemed too inhibited — passing up several wide open shots to force passes to surprised teammates.
> 
> With Marbury shifting to the shooting guard, the Knicks finally had a dependable go-to guy who was not the point guard. A situation that Larry Brown has been promoting for quite a while.
> 
> Most often, while Francis carried the ball into the attack zone, Marbury hustled to the left box, waited for a brush down-screen, than cut to the wing to receive the ball. From there, Marbury's first option was to go one-on-one, but he was much more intent on passing the ball than in looking for his shot. (In fact, Marbury didn't fire one up until 6:37 of the second quarter.)
> 
> Francis seemed more comfortable when Jamal Crawford replaced Marbury, and Francis moved to the 2-guard position. Francis has never had any problem creating his own shot, and a slick driving layup was quickly followed by a spinning jumper in the lane.
> 
> When Marbury and Francis were reunited in the second quarter, Francis (playing No. 1 on offense and No. 2 on defense as before) was presented with several familiar screen/role situations to ease his confusion. From the 2-guard slot, however, Marbury dominated the ball. A quartet of isos netted a basket, four points from the foul line, and his only turnover — a foolish passed launched when he was airborne. And Marbury was still in his passing mode. Dropping dimes on Jackie Butler, Woods, and David Lee.
> 
> The defense of the Knicks' latest gold-dust twins wasn't quite as sterling. Francis was late in offense-defense transition and made several late rotations. Meanwhile, Marbury worked hard, but was badly beaten off the dribble by both Antonio Burke (who passed up a free layup in favor of making a wild pass to the first-row) and Chucky Atkins.
> 
> In any case, after a sloppy spell to close out the second quarter, the Knicks clung to a 49-47 lead at the intermission and, overall, were playing with uncharacteristic efficiency and confidence.
> 
> With Marbury in and Francis out, the Knicks opened the third quarter with the same hang-dog look NBA watchers have become accustomed to seeing. Then Francis checked into the action (at 7:33) and the team perked up. At the point, Francis made some nifty passes and some stinko ones — but Marbury got back into his electric bag — passing and scoring from iso alignments; running, driving and losing two assists when Butler had a layup blocked and Lee missed a chippie. And he never made a foolish move ¹ at least on offense.
> 
> For the duration, Marbury's defense retrogressed. On two occasions, he left Atkins to help on Pau Gasol, but failed to recover in time to prevent Atkins from bagging a pair of damaging 3-balls. One good rotation on a down-screen enabled Marbury to steal an errant pass. One poor rotation forced Eddy Curry into fouling the man Marbury let loose.
> 
> As for Francis, his defense picked up noticeably. Hustling after loose balls. Doing an adequate job defending screen-and-roll plays. And making two savvy rotations that resulted in his two steals. Granted that Francis wasn't challenged on defense as much as Marbury was, but he still showed quicker hands and quicker feet.
> 
> Marbury and Francis partnered up for the last 8:45 of the game. With Crawford manning the small forward, the Knicks were quick and lively on offense. Francis moved well with and without the ball — and made an absolutely great pass into Lee for another dunk.
> 
> In the home stretch, Marbury went into his scoring act. Knocking down two treys, and three pull-up jumpers. His only assist came on a kick-out to Richardson for a trey.
> 
> 
> Pau Gasol's jumper sank the knicks on Wednesday. (Phil Connors / Associated Press)
> 
> The only down side here was Crawford's pitiful defense which gave Atkins too many open looks.
> 
> With the game racing toward the wire, Marbury and Francis were involved in the two most critical plays. With the score knotted at 99 and the clock ticking down, the Grizzlies ran a screen-and-roll play that forced Marbury to switch on to Gasol. Marbury played tough-enough, body-up defense, but nobody (i.e. David Lee) came to his aid when Gasol moved the ball to the baseline. With his long arms and 10-inch height advantage, Gasol merely turned, reached over Marbury, and knocked down the winning basket.
> 
> The Knicks had 2-plus seconds left, and Brown called Francis's number. But his 20-footer bounced off the back-rim at the buzzer.
> 
> Based on the evidence gleaned from this particular game, Marbury (at the No. 2) and Francis (at the No. 1) can certainly work in tandem to score beaucoup points and create easy shots for each other and for the rest of the gang. Sure, their defense will be problematic, but it's conceivable that the Knicks will wind up on the plus side of virtually every backcourt matchup.
> 
> The problem is the rest of the team. Can any of the bigs, mediums or smalls play enough defense? (No.) Will anybody else get sufficient touches to avoid getting frustrated, and to prevent opponents from keying on Marbury and Francis? (No.) Can Larry Brown become the kind of warm, fuzzy avuncular coach who can inspire his players to overachieve? (Never.) Can Brown stop publicly snipping at his players and complaining about the composition of his roster? (No.) Will Nate Robinson ever be activated again? (Only in an emergency.) Do David Lee and Channing Frye have the goods to provide a spark of hope for the future? (Yes.)
> 
> And, can Marbury and Francis learn to work and play well together? Yes, with a qualification. Should the team continue its descent into the NBA's underworld, all bets are off. In this likely scenario, it'll be every man for himself. Including Marbury, Francis, Brown, Isiah, and even Jim Dolan.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*













> 'I believe in the plan. I believe in the strategy. I believe in the guys that are executing it. Maybe some people think I'm brain dead because of that and the record. But you know what, time will tell.' - James Dolan



http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/396135p-335763c.html


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/396135p-335763c.html


This is interesting:



> Thomas canceled a European scouting trip to travel with Dolan. At least one person close to the Knicks president admitted that Thomas didn't feel comfortable being out of the country while Dolan and Brown had three days of bonding.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



narek said:


> This is interesting:





> Thomas canceled a European scouting trip to travel with Dolan. At least one person close to the Knicks president admitted that Thomas didn't feel comfortable being out of the country while Dolan and Brown had three days of bonding.


The interesting thing is it is a third, completely different story.

First, I heard he cancelled the trip because Dolan summoned him for meetings

Then I heard (and totally wrote off as not credible) that IT cancelled the trip because he wanted to be with the team in their hour of need.

Now this -- he cancelled the trip because he was insecure.


The NY media sure knows how to milk the chatter.


----------



## dkg1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



narek said:


> This is interesting:



I found that very interesting as well. I knew something was up when I read somewhere that Isiah was not pulled off the European scouting trip, that he joined the meeting on his own. Think he's feeling a little insecure? I would be if I were him.


One other thing that was pointed out is odd. What is this "strategy" or "plan" Isiah has that Brain Dead Dolan keeps mentioning? Throw enough crap against the wall and eventually something will stick? I personally love it. As long as he lets Zeke have the reigns to the franchise that swap of picks looks pretty promising next year.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I fail to see how a team can have a plan with a bunch of max veterans that have won only a handful of games. This team is not young. Lets not kid ourselves. Atlanta and Toronto are young. We are young. That team is veteran....


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Lupica on "The Strategy":



> "(Thomas') ability to execute (the plan) is what makes me keep faith," Dolan said yesterday.
> 
> His fans have no faith in Isiah Thomas, they have no faith in James Dolan, they have no faith that either one of them can ever get things turned around, even with Larry Brown working for them. No faith, no hope.
> 
> There is no strategy here, other than the one that involves Thomas' keeping the last big job he will have in the NBA for as long as possible.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/396136p-335764c.html


----------



## Cyanobacteria

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/45989

Everyone piling on.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Thomas seems like the guy who's 80 lbs overweight who wants to be eligible for gastric by-pass....... "gotta gain twenty pounds, gotta gain twenty pounds!"


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

It's starting.



> Knicks coach Larry Brown checked into a Memphis hospital complaining of chest pains earlier this week, but was released two hours later after being diagnosed with indigestion, according to published reports Friday.


He'll be gone by the break next season.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-knicks-brown-chestpains&prov=ap&type=lgns


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

A very interesting Curious Guy interview with Malcom Gladwell, New Yorker magazine writer, best-selling author and huge sports fans where they talk about the Knicks and other sports stuff is up at ESPN:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/simmons/index


> Gladwell: Here's the real question. If I was GM of the Knicks, would I be doing a better job of managing the team than Thomas? I believe, somewhat immodestly, that the answer is yes. And I say this even though it is abundantly clear that Thomas knows several thousand times more about basketball than I do. I've never picked up a basketball. I couldn't diagram a play to save my life. I would put my level of basketball knowledge, among hard core fans, in the 25th percentile


. 



> Now would I be as good as GM as Jerry West or Joe Dumars? Of course not. But just by sitting on my hands, and being scared of looking like a fool, and taking only the safest, most conservative steps, and drafting only solid players that everybody agrees are a can't miss, I could make the Knicks a vastly better team than they are today -- as could any reasonably cautious and uninformed fan. (The big exception, of course, would be you. You would draft the starting point guard from Holy Cross, a handful of short Irish guys from the South End, and various members of Larry Bird's extended family -- and then try to package them to Milwaukee for Bobby Simmons). The point is that knowledge and the ability to make a good decision correlate only sporadically, and there are plenty of times when knowledge gets in the way of judgement. That's Thomas in a nutshell: He knows so much about basketball that he believes that he knows more than anyone else about the potential of previously undistinguished players. He thinks he can see into the true basketball soul of Jerome James. The truth is, of course, that James doesn't have a basketball soul.


The whole thing is interesting reading.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



narek said:


> A very interesting Curious Guy interview with Malcom Gladwell, New Yorker magazine writer, best-selling author and huge sports fans where they talk about the Knicks and other sports stuff is up at ESPN:
> 
> http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/simmons/index
> .
> 
> 
> 
> The whole thing is interesting reading.


I wouldn't mind Malcolm Gladwell's gig: write whatever you want for the New Yorker and get generous, zero-pressure sabbaticals to write insightful, critically and academically praised books which sell in the millions.

I felt that this passage was interesting (and maybe even damning), too, but in a different way:



> By the way, while we're on this topic, let's play a real world application of this. Let's say I'm so dumb about basketball that all I know is that the best college programs in the country are Duke and UConn, and so as a GM my rule is only draft and/or trade for the first and second team players, in any given year, from those two schools. So I fire all my scouts. I disband my front office, and basically say that I cede my basketball judgment to Jim Calhoun and Mike K. What's my team? It's some combination of Elton Brand, Emeka Okafor, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Shane Battier, Mike Dunleavy, Rip Hamilton, Corey Maggette, Jay Williams, Caron Butler, Donyell Marshall and Grant Hill -- which is a really wonderful team. Now, of course, in the real world I couldn't get all those people, because lots of them were really high draft picks. But let's say I got Brand in a trade, after Chicago soured on him, and I was lucky enough to be in the lottery for Okafor. Maggette was a 13; Hamilton and Deng were 7s; and Butler was a 10 -- so at least some of them are doable, particularly since in off-years for Duke and UConn I can trade down and stockpile picks. Battier I wine and dine in the free agent market, because who wants to be stuck in Memphis? Ditto for Gordon, who, it seems, Chicago is thinking of moving anyway. Is that the best team in the league? No. It is better than the Knicks? Absolutely. The point is that clinging to a very simple rule of thumb here -- that doesn't require knowing much about basketball -- can leave you looking pretty smart.


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

*This is one of my favorite topics. Let's do Erick Dampier. In his contract year at Golden State, he essentially doubles his rebounds and increases his scoring by 50 percent. Then, after he signs with Dallas, he goes back to the player he was before. What can we conclude from this? The obvious answer is that effort plays a much larger role in athletic performance than we care to admit. When he tries, Dampier is one of the top centers in the league. When he doesn't try, he's mediocre. So a big part of talent is effort.*

It was a fantastic read, I really enjoyed it. And it has a lot about the Bulls in it without mentioning them more than once. I would reccomend it.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Who are you guys going to root for when the Knicks play Milwaukee tonight??

Personally, I think I'll be pulling for the Knicks. I think they've all but cemented the 1st or 2nd worst record in the league, and any leeway we can get for that eighth spot helps.

Either way, we can't lose!! :banana:


----------



## badfish

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



rosenthall said:


> Who are you guys going to root for when the Knicks play Milwaukee tonight??
> 
> Personally, I think I'll be pulling for the Knicks. I think they've all but cemented the 1st or 2nd worst record in the league, and any leeway we can get for that eighth spot helps.
> 
> Either way, we can't lose!! :banana:



I won't be rooting for the Knicks to win, but I'll be rooting for the Bucks to lose. :biggrin: At this point, the marginal benefit of a Bucks loss is greater than the marginal benefit of a Knicks loss. 

It's going to be tough though, it's practically hard-wired in me to root against the Knicks. Always been that way. The pick and swap has just made it more emphatic.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



badfish said:


> I won't be rooting for the Knicks to win, but I'll be rooting for the Bucks to lose. :biggrin: At this point, the marginal benefit of a Bucks loss is greater than the marginal benefit of a Knicks loss.
> 
> It's going to be tough though, it's practically hard-wired in me to root against the Knicks. Always been that way. The pick and swap has just made it more emphatic.


Yeah, you probably worded the whole thing better than I did. I'm more or less 100% on the same page as you.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I'll be rooting for the Bucks - I want the Bulls and Bucks to get into the playoffs - I want Washington to fall apart. But it is tough with the records being so close. Plus there's something in me that just can't root for the Knicks to win under any circumstance.


----------



## ViciousFlogging

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I love the Knicks right now. They lose almost all their games, and on the very rare days that they DO win a game, they knock off the team directly above us in the standings! It's almost like they're an arm of the Bulls organization!

Bravo, Knicks! Bravo!


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Can anyone say Knicks in the playoffs THIS season?


----------



## spongyfungy

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Would Isiah be a good fit for the IU job?


> One of the names being thrown around for the Indiana basketball post is former IU legend *Isiah Thomas*


 :dead: :rofl: :no:


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Electric Slim said:


> Can anyone say Knicks in the playoffs THIS season?


I can say it but I dont mean it!


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

ZING!



> Before Saturday night's game at Milwaukee — a game the Knicks actually won, 103-98 — Marbury told reporters that even though the team was deep into the season, it still seemed confused on the court. The implication was that Brown had been unable to make the players understand his system, at least in part because he has rotated so many players in and out of the lineup.
> 
> Brown answered back Monday by being dismissive of Marbury's comments, although he never mentioned his point guard by name.
> 
> "I don't react to what he says," Brown said, referring to Marbury. He then responded to what Marbury had said and, at one point, suggested that players who did not want to put the team first "ought to *run track, play golf, play tennis — things like that.*"


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/07/sports/basketball/07knicks.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



ViciousFlogging said:


> I love the Knicks right now. They lose almost all their games, and on the very rare days that they DO win a game, they knock off the team directly above us in the standings! It's almost like they're an arm of the Bulls organization!
> 
> Bravo, Knicks! Bravo!


Well the skullduggery of Paxson, sending Jamal and Eddy to infiltrate the Knicks and act as _agents provocateurs_ is certainly paying off in spades!


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Well the skullduggery of Paxson, sending Jamal and Eddy to infiltrate the Knicks and act as _agents provocateurs_ is certainly paying off in spades!


As a kid I used to dream about growing up to be a skulldugger.........


----------



## 7RINGS?

*Is Isaiah Thomas The Bulls Best Gm?*

This guy has really set us up for the future!! He gave us a no.#1 pick(ALDRIDGE,GAY,MORRISON) and next years #1 pick ( ODEN? )and a coulpe 2 rounders for Curry!!Eddy was good but he makes no difference on the Knicks.Thanks ZEKE!! Isaiah and Paxon = BULLS CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!These could be two of the best GM'S in the game.Isaiah for president,Pax for vice. :bbanana: :makeadeal :usa:


----------



## GB

*Re: Is Isaiah Thomas The Bulls Best Gm?*



7RINGS? said:


> next years #1 pick ( ODEN? )


Whoa there. Larry Browns teams always improve in their second season. They aren't untalented, just basketball retarded.

There are signs that the message may be starting to sink in.

Lets see how this season ends first.


----------



## dkg1

*Re: Is Isaiah Thomas The Bulls Best Gm?*

As a Bulls and IU fan, I'm hoping Isiah stays at least 1 more year in NY.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: Is Isaiah Thomas The Bulls Best Gm?*

We are trying to steer the board away from this kind of pointless meandering. It has poisoned the board for far too long.

¡Viva la Noc!


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: Is Isaiah Thomas The Bulls Best Gm?*

and if we must pointlessly meander about the ineptitude that is the knick, let's do it here, in the meltdown containment area. thank you for playing.


----------



## GB

*Re: Is Isaiah Thomas The Bulls Best Gm?*

[edit]

Just

Stop

Fanning 

the 

Flames.

Its all I'm asking.


TB#1


----------



## jbulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I wonder if Isaiah Thomas might've overplayed his hand with Channing Frye. Frye looked like a ROY candidate and certainly one of the best two or three players in the draft to start the season. But he's averaging 4 and 4 a game in March, and has shot 42 and 38 percent the last two months. Still a nice player, but he looked like a huge bargaining chip in trades the first couple months of the season. I'm not so sure if he is anymore...


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The New York Times on the Bobcats/Knicks game:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/12/sports/basketball/12knicks.html?_r=1&oref=slogin



> CHARLOTTE, N.C., March 11 — Ineptitude and hopelessness were on display here Saturday night, for anyone with nothing better to do and the stomach to watch.
> 
> It is possible that no one got their money's worth — not the fans who paid for their seats, and not the Knicks or the Charlotte Bobcats, who are spending a combined $158.5 million for the right to see who finishes last in the N.B.A.
> 
> In dollars per victory, the Bobcats already had a wide advantage, and their league-low $33.5 million payroll looked wisely spent after a 116-109 defeat of the Knicks (payroll: $125 million).
> 
> The victory pushed the Bobcats (18-45) back into 29th place, with a .286 winning percentage, while the Knicks slipped to 30th at 17-44 and .279. Their two-game winning streak over, the Knicks were back to questioning everything.
> 
> Coach Larry Brown foreshadowed a letdown when he said before the game that the Knicks had completed two subpar practices. Sure enough, they reverted in every facet of the game. They allowed 33 points in the first quarter, 35 in the third and came apart down the stretch, when they let a 2-point deficit balloon to 7.





> Charlotte built leads in both halves with 3-point shooting. Jones had five 3-pointers and finished with 28 points. Matt Carroll and the rookie Raymond Felton each had three 3-pointers. Felton had 20 points and 6 assists. He impressed Marbury, who seemed to take a shot at Brown while praising Felton. Marbury said Felton's play was a tribute to Bobcats Coach Bernie Bickerstaff.
> 
> "He plays with so much confidence," Marbury said. "Bickerstaff, he does a great job of instilling that in his players. He allows players a lot of freedom, as you can see."
> 
> Marbury has often chafed under Brown's controlling style, and Brown has rejected Marbury's pleas for a more free-flowing, up-tempo offense.





> So when someone mentioned that Knicks guard Jamal Crawford had predicted the team would not finish last, Bickerstaff had to smirk a little.
> 
> *"The Knicks," Bickerstaff noted, "really don't have any reason to finish last, if you know what I mean*."


----------



## jbulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



narek said:


> The New York Times on the Bobcats/Knicks game:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/12/sports/basketball/12knicks.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


That Marbury quote is priceless, talk about a thinly veiled shot. There are a bunch of great Marbury quotes up in today's hoopshype rumors section. Evidently he's going back to being "Starbury", he even uses the term himself.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Eddy Curry is now rated in the top 40 in the NBA in rebound rate.

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2006/jh_ALL_REB.htm

He's also now 17th in the league in TS%.

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2006/jh_ALL_TSP.htm


-------

This Marbury quote was disgusting, IMO.

"I don't think we want to be the worst team in the league," said Stephon Marbury, who had 18 points. "It's not by design. At this stage in the season we've got to continue to play hard, just to get better for next year. We're all losers -- whoever doesn't win the championship."

Yah right Steph, its OK to be the worst team in the league, all the teams that don't win the losers. What a joke.



This one is a classic as well....


"I went into this year trying to do something, to put myself in a situation where we can win, Okay?" he said, "to help the team win games. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. So, what do I do now, as far as the way I play? I go back to playing like Stephon Marbury, aka Starbury. I haven't been Starbury this year. I've been some other dude this year."


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Eddy Curry is now rated in the top 40 in the NBA in rebound rate.


If only Dirk Nowitzki, Antonio McDyess, Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, P.J. Brown, Andrei Kirilenko, David West, and Brad Miller had the uncanny superior rebounding skills that Eddy Curry possesses, they'd be hella players.

I'm sure GM's around the league are kicking themselves for not signing Scott Padgett this season.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Electric Slim said:


> I'm sure GM's around the league are kicking themselves for not signing Scott Padgett this season.


So, you don't think a high rebound rate indicates good rebounding?


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> So, you don't think a high rebound rate indicates good rebounding?


If you really think that you've discovered that Eddy Curry is a good rebounder from this study, then maybe you can replace Zeke as GM in NY.

If anything, this study shows that Eddy is the one of the crappier rebounding centers.


----------



## dkg1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Being a 7 foot tall starting Center, if Eddy isn't in the top 40 for rebounding rate there should be an investigation. Maybe LB is getting through to him? I think with the small lineup the Knicks play at times, Eddy has to rebound. They have smaller guards and a power forward (Frye) who isn't going to remind anyone of Buck Williams rebounding the ball.

Those quotes from Marbury are something else. The bad thing for Knicks fans is he's virtually untradable. Who would be willing to take him with his attitude and contract?


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



dkg1 said:


> Being a 7 foot tall starting Center, if Eddy isn't in the top 40 for rebounding rate there should be an investigation.


FWIW, I am reminded of a John Wooden quote that somebody had or has as a sig line:



> Don't measure yourself by what you have accomplished, but by what you should have accomplished with your ability.


God bless him, but Eddy really should have that tattooed backwards on his forehead, so he sees it every time he looks in the mirror.

All other garbage put aside, I am still rooting for All-Star Eddy to emerge. Someday.

He can do it.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Electric Slim said:


> If you really think that you've discovered that Eddy Curry is a good rebounder from this study, then maybe you can replace Zeke as GM in NY.


I would not say good, but he's improved and he's certainly not the worst.



> If anything, this study shows that Eddy is the one of the crappier rebounding centers.


Depends where you draw the "crappier" line. 

There are 20 centers that have a better rebounding rate.
There are 13 centers that have a worse rebounding rate. (pj brown, brad miller, brezec).

So there are 34 in total. Where is the crap line? Right at Curry? Higher? (that meands channing frye, etan thomas, and brendan haywood are crappy)


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> So there are 34 in total. Where is the crap line? Right at Curry? Higher? (that meands channing frye, etan thomas, and brendan haywood are crappy)


It's the survey you came up with, you tell me.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> All other garbage put aside, I am still rooting for All-Star Eddy to emerge. Someday.
> 
> He can do it.


ed: **Enough already**

It good to have high expectations... why are yours so high for Eddy? You never seemed like much of a fan of his.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Electric Slim said:


> It's the survey you came up with, you tell me.


I'm asking you to define "crappier"... which was the term you used.

There are 34 total centers rated. Where is the "crap" line drawn? Is Brad Miller one of the crappier rebounding centers? Is the line right at Curry? If not, is Channing Frye one of the "crappier" ones? Is Etan Thomas?


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Don't measure yourself by what you have accomplished, but by what you should have accomplished with your ability.


Stats aside, there are two guards on the Knicks that are better rebounders that Curry.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> It good to have high expectations... why are yours so high for Eddy? You never seemed like much of a fan of his.


You are incorrect about my not being a fan of his. I have always supported Eddy and have rooted for him to develop the areas of his game that are weak, and frustrating to watch.

I have said that over and over. Nothing new.


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> I'm asking you to define "crappier"... which was the term you used.
> 
> There are 34 total centers rated. Where is the "crap" line drawn? Is Brad Miller one of the crappier rebounding centers? Is the line right at Curry? If not, is Channing Frye one of the "crappier" ones? Is Etan Thomas?


*According to that "crappy" list*, then yes, those Brad Miller and co. are among the "crappiest rebounding centers".


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> You are incorrect about my not being a fan of his. I have always supported Eddy and have rooted for him to develop the areas of his game that are weak, and frustrating to watch.
> 
> I have said that over and over. Nothing new.


Same here X2. Just because I don't believe that k4e's study shows that Eddy is a good rebounding center doesn't change my past or present supporting of Eddy.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Let me speak up as well. I have been critical of both Eddy and Jamal in the past. Thats does not mean I do not want them to succeed or I am a hater. I am critical when I think they deserve it and I spoke up because I cared about the players and thought both of them could do better. 

Now that they dont play for us, I have decided not to talk so much about them. That does not mean I want them to fail, but I am a bulls fan and I want to follow the current players more than Eddy or Jamal or Jalen or hoiberg or hassell, or AD or AG, or brunson...brand, Miller, Artest...etc;....you get the point.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> "I went into this year trying to do something, to put myself in a situation where we can win, okay?" Marbury said on Saturday. "To help the team win games. Unfortunately, that didn't happen. So, what do I do now, as far as the way I play? I go back to playing like Stephon Marbury, aka Starbury. I haven't been Starbury this year. I've been some other dude this year."
> 
> You would be willing to cut Marbury some slack if he were still a senior at Lincoln High School. The fact that a 29-year-old man refers to himself in the third person as "Starbury" and believes that he's had a stellar career up until Brown arrived goes beyond ludicrous.
> 
> Is there no one in Marbury's circle of enablers to tell him how crazy he sounds?


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/399156p-338205c.html


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Here are some Eddy stats I just ran across:



> How likely is it that New York’s present center will become their center of the future?
> 
> To answer a question like this, we just need to look in the past. To find players similar to Mr. Curry, I limited myself to 23 year olds who were 6′10 or taller. I also limited myself to the last 25 years, or what I would term the modern era of the NBA (1980 or since). This is due to the changes in the game including the ABA/NBA merger, the three point line, gaps in statkeeping (blocks, steals, turnovers), etc. Using this information, we can gauge how likely it is for Curry to become a more productive player. If we look at 23 year old players whose defensive rebounding rates were close to Curry’s (5.0 & 6.2 DREB/40 min) we find that after 3 years those same players on average saw a meager increase of 0.5 defensive rebounds per 40 minutes. Optimists will find comfort in the knowledge that there were a few players who started out as timid as Eddy, and turned into excellent rebounders.
> 
> Marcus Camby was an awful rebounder for the Toronto Raptors, which is probably the reason they traded him to New York. In his first two years he averaged 5.5 and 5.3 defensive rebounds per 40 minutes. In New York, his rates steady increased until blossoming as a full time starter in 2001. That year Marcus averaged 9.9 defensive rebounds per 40 minuts, nearly double his average in Toronto. Another player who went from hyalophobic to hyalophile is Jayson Williams. Like Camby, in his first two seasons Williams showed a fear of glass for the Sixers. And just like Marcus, Jayson nearly doubled his defensive rebounding by age 26, snaring 10.0 DREB/40min.
> 
> Camby and Williams show that it’s not impossible for Curry to become a strong rebounder. However if you’re going to start to tout Curry as a future All Star, you might want to preface your statement with something to the effect of being a blind optimist who will be winning the lotto in the near future. By looking at defensive rebounding averages of all players from age 23 to 36 (see graph below), players will hit their peak around the age of 27 and begin to decline at around 32. From this data it might be reasonable to incur that Curry will be at best a league average rebounder for a man of his size, and at worst remain a poor rebounder.
> 
> By using this same technique, we can also analyze his...


Read on. It's interesting. I'd guess the projections wouldn't bode well for Chandlers offense either? Would they have predicted Brand surge this year (he's 6ppg better than his rookie year...which tied with his sophmore year to be his career best)?

http://www.knickerblogger.net/?p=358


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Electric Slim said:


> *According to that "crappy" list*,


Why do you think rebound rate is "crappy?"


----------



## Electric Slim

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> Why do you think rebound rate is "crappy?"


It isn't, really. I think that study shows Eddy as a weak rebounder rather than a good one. You used it to show the opposite.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Electric Slim said:


> It isn't, really. I think that study shows Eddy as a weak rebounder rather than a good one. You used it to show the opposite.


OK, fine.

Where do you draw the "weak" line then? Right at Curry? Is Channing Frye considered weak as well? PJ Brown? Al Harrington?


----------



## jbulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



kukoc4ever said:


> OK, fine.
> 
> Where do you draw the "weak" line then? Right at Curry? Is Channing Frye considered weak as well? PJ Brown? Al Harrington?


I'm not surprised by Curry's place on the list. Seems about right, though it's tough to get excited about a 6'11'' 285 pound center cracking the top 40 in rebound rate for the first time in his fifth season. I don't think Eddy's a very good rebounder (given his size) but he's not Mark Blount either. If he could stay out there for 35 minutes a game he'd average 8 a night and nobody would complain about it. I'm not sure whether to blame Larry Brown's erratic rotations or Curry's conditioning on his faliure to approach that number.

He should be getting more boards than those three guys though. Frye is a stick who never averaged more than 8 boards a game in college, Harrington is basically a 3/4, and PJ Brown is 36. Still, Curry's not atrocious on the glass and he does seem to be rebounding better of late. Got to give him credit for that.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Loss to Denver, 108-96

>>The Knicks lost for the 24th time in their last 28 games. They've allowed at least 100 points in 17 of those games and 15 have of those defeats have been by double digits. <<

nba.com

>>Brown clearly isn't ready to commit to Marbury beyond this season, saying before last night's 108-96 loss to the Nuggets "we'll see" when asked if he and his point guard are compatible. Brown stopped short of saying that Marbury needed to be exiled, but did hint that roster changes are needed.

"Any coach that has gone to a losing situation, if you looked at the roster when he got there and the roster after he was there, I don't care who he is, it's entirely changed," Brown said.

"You've got to try to make your players better and evaluate who can play for you and who wants to play. Who wants to play the way you think you have a chance to win."
--
On Saturday, Marbury fired the latest salvo when he said he has tried to play Brown's way and since the Knicks aren't winning, he will go back to playing his way, aka Starbury.

"We were on a two-game winning streak when these statements happened," Brown said.
<<

Marbury = Cancer. Check out some of those statements in the article about the coach having to adjust to him. If he really believes that he'll never win anything...

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/399632p-338582c.html


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Larry Brown Launches a Full-Court Rant 

Larry Brown and Stephon Marbury have vastly different ideas about what ails the Knicks. Logically, one of them is wrong. Brown is pretty sure it is not him. The debate could go on for months or years, but Brown all but declared it over on Tuesday, delivering a striking and harsh rebuke to Marbury's recent remarks. It was Brown's strongest response and his angriest, and perhaps his most honest appraisal since he became the Knicks' coach last summer. "Look, I've been coaching how many years?" said Brown, whose Hall-of-Fame career spans three decades. "I never left a team in worse shape than I got it. Not one. Now think about that. Think about me and think about the guy who's talking," he said, referring to Marbury. "I never left a team in worse shape. Never asked anything of my players any different than I'm doing right now. Think about that. Think about that. So the bottom line is, I want us to rebound, defend, share the ball, play hard. That's all. If you can't do that, if that's not important enough to you, it's not on me. It's not on me. And you owe it to your teammates to do that every single night if you care about the right things. We're 17-45, all right? So we've got to figure out a way to get better." 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/15/sports/basketball/15knicks.html


----------



## dkg1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Wow, what a mess in NY. Hopefully they will be terrible next year as well so we can get a decent pick in a good draft. I did hear one bit of positive information today and that was LB calling Jamal their best perimeter defender (I'm assuming that's a good thing). There's another article somewhere in which JC and Q back LB's statements about defense up. This is better than any soap opera on TV. Could a Knicks reality tv show be far behind?


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

LB is correct. He has an ego, but I cant argue with what he said. 

Talent is important but if they do their own thing it becomes streetball. 

It is a mess. 

Nice comments about JC. Glad to hear it. Of course it could also mean the others are just dreadful, but I wont go there. I want to believe he has worked on his D.


----------



## badfish

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truebluefan said:


> LB is correct. He has an ego, but I cant argue with what he said.
> 
> Talent is important but if they do their own thing it becomes streetball.
> 
> It is a mess.
> 
> Nice comments about JC. Glad to hear it. Of course it could also mean the others are just dreadful, but I wont go there. I want to believe he has worked on his D.


I think it was more of a backhanded compliment than anything. But, it is true. I would certainly take Jamal's defense over that of Q-Rich, Franchise, and Starbury's.


:laugh: :laugh:


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I would too.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



badfish said:


> I think it was more of a backhanded compliment than anything. But, it is true. I would certainly take Jamal's defense over that of Q-Rich, Franchise, and Starbury's.
> 
> 
> :laugh: :laugh:


Perimeter, yes. But Stevie Franchise is averaging 6 rebounds a game over his career. Thats better than *every single big man on the Knicks roster.* Jamals steals are equal to the other guards.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Here is the quote:

>>"Jamal, to me, is becoming our best perimeter defender," Brown said. "When did we think that would happen?"<<
http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/63139.htm

Another:

>>

Asked if Francis was having trouble adjusting to coming off the bench, Brown said, "There's no doubt about it. He's got to adjust."

If Quentin Richardson (sprained thumb) is healthy tonight, the lineup will stick. Francis will again come off the pine for the ninth time in his 10 Knicks games.

"I'm not taking Quentin out," Brown said. "He's defending every play as hard as he possibly can." <<

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/63138.htm


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truebluefan said:


> LB is correct. He has an ego, but I cant argue with what he said.
> 
> Talent is important but if they do their own thing it becomes streetball.












the next Knicks coach?


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> the next Knicks coach?


LOL talk about a mutiny! "That was pathetic!" will ring t/o the locker room. 

Maybe Paula Abdul would have to be part of the team just to balance it out?


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> the next Knicks coach?


He'd tell Starbury to be true to himself, and wonder if any of the Knicks have the "it" factor.


----------



## jbulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truebluefan said:


> LB is correct. He has an ego, but I cant argue with what he said.
> 
> Talent is important but if they do their own thing it becomes streetball.
> 
> It is a mess.
> 
> Nice comments about JC. Glad to hear it. Of course it could also mean the others are just dreadful, but I wont go there. I want to believe he has worked on his D.


I'm sure it's a combination of both. But I'm not totally surprised. It was never my impression that effort was the issue with Crawford, just sensitivity and instinctiveness. From what I've seen he's still not great, but he at least gives a damn.


----------



## L.O.B

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

It's getting ugleeeee in NY. 



> "I think it's personal now," Marbury said. "I don't think it's about basketball anymore. Now it's to the point where he's putting his 30-year career against my 10-year career. You know, coach is a great coach is what everyone says. We're supposed to be better than what we are. Did it happen now? No."





> "So, you're the best guard in the league and the team is 17-45, yeah, it's the coach's fault," Brown said.



Lol. The New York mess sure makes good reading


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

A beef between coach and starting PG and "now its _personal_?"

THAT is a team meltdown!

:yes:


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

All i can say is, come on Oden sweepstakes!


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*













such drama. queens.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> such drama. queens.


No ides of March covers? :biggrin:


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

WWPD?

What Would Paxson Do?


----------



## spongyfungy

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

*Marbury wants to say goodbye soon*



> Stephon Marbury has told at least two teammates that he expects to be traded during the offseason, according to a team source.
> 
> Following Monday's loss to Denver, Marbury said to a teammate, "I'm out of here this summer," and added that he is looking forward to next month's exit interview with James Dolan, Isiah Thomas and Larry Brown so he can express his feelings about Brown in front of the organization's highest-ranking officials.
> 
> Yesterday, Marbury said that he wants to continue playing for the Knicks.
> 
> "I love New York and I believe New York loves me," Marbury said. "I'm at the point where I just want to win. I want to play in New York more than anything in this world but if that's not happening next year, I can't cry about it."
> 
> Marbury will earn $60 million over the last three years of his contract. Trading him would be no easy chore, although there is a possibility the Knicks will attempt to negotiate a buyout. Thomas, the team president, has said repeatedly that he will try to get Brown players he wants.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/400185p-339047c.html


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Brown does cross the line when criticizing players, turning personnel problems personal in a heartbeat. He doesn't have to resort to authoring a hardcover to reveal confidential conversations, locker-room secrets and upper-management riffs. In fact, in an exceptionally, unstable, paranoid profession, Brown is easily its most insecure member.
> 
> Suspend Marbury for what, telling the truth? How could Thomas take that course of action without also suspending Brown, who has belittled and betrayed Marbury from day one?
> 
> Then again, how could Thomas suspend both of them without including himself for hiring a coach who loathed his lead player when they were in Athens for the '04 Olympics?
> 
> The same columnists who flogged Brown for the way he mishandled LeBron James, Carmello Anthony, Amare Stoudemire and others, the same journalists who called him out repeatedly for pointing fingers at his players, composed sonnets praising Thomas' hiring of Brown.
> 
> Tell me I didn't read Marbury should be suspended for questioning Brown's integrity!
> 
> Integrity? How often has Brown agreed to terms with his next team before leaving his present one? Just to backtrack one team: How long do you think Brown's agent, Joe Glass, was tampering/talking to Cavs owner Dan Gilbert or his people before the Pistons were approached about giving their permission?
> 
> Integrity? How do you think Brown induced Danny Manning to switch his commitment from North Carolina to Kansas by offering his father an assistant-coaching job? Why do you think there were so many people against UNC hiring him when Dean Smith retired?
> 
> Integrity? Brown says he always leaves teams in better shape than when he got there? Oh, really? When Brown left Kansas after winning the '88 NCAA title, the school was placed on probation. It's the only time a school was banned from defending its title.
> 
> Integrity? I have it on excellent authority, in the midst of Brown's East Hampton talks with Thomas and James Dolan he was hitting up on Chris Mullin, a Long Island summer neighbor, for the occupied Warriors job.
> 
> In the first, final and foremost analysis, Brown and Marbury came to the Knicks as advertised. The ingredients were clearly marked. So were the warnings. Yet Thomas put them together anyway.
> 
> All three gotta go. Last one out, disconnect the cable!


Vecsey

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/63260.htm


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

That's scary, Vecsey's article brought a smile.

The Knicks are royalled ****ed. I know its too early to say next year will be a right off aswell, but just when you think they couldn't sink any lower, they do. Sad thing is, I don't see any upside at all.

Marbury will remain a Knick, noone is stupid enough to go after him.
Brown, well I don't know why anyone would want to lock him up in a long term contract, I can't remember the exact years, but the number 5 comes to mind. I can't remember the last team Brown was with for that long.

How Thomas has survived this long is anyones guess, he'd be long gone in my books.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Remind me again...is there any need for Isaiah if Dolan is doing his job?



> According to a team source, Dolan asked Brown to stop engaging in a public hissing match with Marbury because their feud was becoming an embarrassment to the organization.
> 
> Dolan and Knicks president Isiah Thomas met with Brown in Brown's office before Wednesday's win over Atlanta. Dolan left the building following the meeting.
> 
> Dolan is sensitive to public spats involving his employees, dating back to 1999 when Jeff Van Gundy and Ernie Grunfeld were embroiled in a dispute that was tame in comparison to Marbury and Brown.
> 
> Dolan became so enraged by the daily coverage of the problems between Van Gundy and Grunfeld that he fired Grunfeld. After Latrell Sprewell and Marcus Camby walked out of mandatory media training session, Dolan wanted both players traded.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/400767p-339530c.html


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> Remind me again...is there any need for Isaiah if Dolan is doing his job?
> 
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/400767p-339530c.html


Of course there is. There is a reason owners hire GMs - to oversee the day to day operations of the franchise.

The real point is, if Zeke was doing his job, it woudn't be necessary for the owner to hold team pep rallies, mediate player/coach meltdowns and make statements in the press.

If IT's horrible personnel decisions and mindbogglingly poor fiscal management weren't proof enough, this recent Brown/Starbury soap opera is proof positive Isiah Thomas is the most clueless GM in the league.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Brown is out?



> Stephon Marbury was irate again before the Knicks' 111-100 loss last night to the Heat, defending himself against the notion he was afraid to take a big shot Friday against Detroit. Marbury also admitted he's tired of being portrayed as "scapegoat" for the Knicks' disastrous season.
> --
> As Team Titanic turns, Saturday became another chapter when Brown left it open to interpretation whether Marbury had asked out of the game. Brown also chided Marbury by saying Crawford, who won the game with a pull-up with 2.3 seconds left, always wants to take the "big shot."
> 
> "I took [Marbury] out because he said he was stiff and couldn't run a play," Brown said yesterday. "So I put Nate in and then when we got a defensive possession I put [Marbury] back in. He wanted to go back in."
> 
> Brown said yesterday more Marbury benchings are in the offing.
> 
> "That's the way it's going to be from now on," Brown said. "He might not sit at all, and games he might sit. We're not going anywhere, so I think the only thing we can do now is try to see who's going to help us down the road."
> 
> This sickening war can't continue next season. One of them must go this summer. That Marbury did not get suspended for calling his coach "insecure," and saying he was living in the past by citing his résumé is indication that management may side with the star point guard.
> 
> Marbury was not at yesterday's morning shoot-around because he took his son to the hospital. If Marbury can't be traded, buying out Brown would be easier than buying out the point guard. Brown is too volatile a personality to suit Knicks owner James Dolan, who is very conscious of inflammatory media coverage.
> 
> Dolan was spare in his praise of Brown in his big meeting with Knicks beat writers in Memphis three weeks ago. Dolan called Brown "an open book" regarding his remarks in the media.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/63380.htm


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Dolan was spare in his praise of Brown in his big meeting with Knicks beat writers in Memphis three weeks ago. Dolan called Brown "an open book" regarding his remarks in the media.


That's one thing that brings down Brown in my books, he whinges to the media rather than keeping it in house. The jib is lacking!


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

There's an interesting Knicks blog in the New Jersey Star-Ledger: 


http://www.nj.com/weblogs/knicks/ 

Today's entry deals with Marbury/Brown and Thomas's place in the whole mess:



> Duh
> So Stephon Marbury and Larry Brown have resorted to schoolground tactics, with the media playing the role of intermediary - or, in many cases, with the media playing the role of the loudmouthed playground gossip who plays the two former friends against each other.
> 
> This is where a good GM comes in. A good GM would have sat these two down together, had them work it out, and everyone would have been happy. Even if the issue wasn't resolved, any competent GM would have issued a gag order.


Much more at the link.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Knicks hold Toronto to 114 and lose both the game and Channing Frye in a sloppy game in NY.
As a team the Knicks looked very confused on both ends of the court.

We spend a lot of time wondering how to get Duhon more playing time with Gordon & Hinrich starting. But think what a headache it must be to share out time between Francis, Marbury, Crawford and Robinson... Meanwhile Curry is up to his old maddening tricks -- one minute dominant, the next two minutes mentally AWOL. 

Looks like a top 5 draft pick is almost in the bank.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

That knee injury to Frye is really kicking the team when its down. What an unbelievably bad season for Knicks fans. I never cheer an injury to anyone, but I gotta say, if Frye is out for a while, that works out well for our chances of a top pick.



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=260321018&campaign=rss&source=NBAHeadlines



> In a season where little has gone right, chalk up one huge wrong for the New York Knicks.
> 
> Rookie Channing Frye left the Knicks' 114-109 loss to the Toronto Raptors on Tuesday night with a sprained left knee ligament -- an injury caused when teammate Nate Robinson seemed to knock Andre Barrett into him.
> 
> Barrett was racing upcourt with the ball with a little more than 9½ minutes left when Robinson, chasing him from behind, appeared to try to swipe the ball away. Barrett lost his balance and fell into Frye's left leg.
> 
> "I apologized to him like 100 times already," Robinson said. "I definitely took full responsibility of what I did. Hopefully it's minor because I would hate for me to be the one to hurt his career or anything like that."
> 
> Frye, one of the few bright spots for the Knicks (19-47), was helped to the locker room and X-rays were negative. He will remain in New York for further testing instead of traveling with the team for Wednesday's game in Orlando.
> 
> "It could have been a lot worse, but I'll be back," Frye said as he left Madison Square Garden on crutches.
> 
> "I kind of knew something happened, because I hit him hard," Barrett said. "And when I tripped I couldn't control myself and he's just standing there."


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> "Hopefully next year it'll change," said Francis, who had only come off the bench three times in his career before this season. "This summer we'll be able to evaluate more what my role is. I don't plan on coming off the bench next year.
> 
> "If it's a situation where they don't feel I'm a starting player on this team, it'll be good to go in a different direction.
> 
> "It's not a big issue now. [November] is when it'll be an issue. I'm not trippin' on it."


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/63406.htm



> Trevor Ariza, the high-flying swingman whom Isiah Thomas stole in the second round in 2004, believes the Knick president did not want to trade him to Orlando - but had to, to please coach Larry Brown.
> --
> "I don't think Isiah wanted to see me go at all," Ariza told The Post yesterday. "That's the business."
> 
> That's the business of dealing with Brown, who warred with Ariza during their brief time together, calling him "delusional," and not playing him in 16 of 52 games.
> 
> One of Ariza's buddies told The Post that Brown rattled Ariza's psyche by "forbidding" him from shooting jump shots.
> 
> "Forbidding you to shoot would hurt the confidence of a 30-year-old, let alone a 20-year-old," Ariza's buddy said.
> 
> Ariza did not deny Brown's order, saying "Coach Brown has a different style of basketball. ... I'd like to have more freedom."


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/63417.htm


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Prized rookie Channing Frye is out for the season with a sprained ligament in his left knee, suffered in Tuesday's loss to Toronto. He will miss the final 16 games and 3 1/2 weeks. He will not need surgery, but the Knicks did not guarantee he'd be back for summer league in July.
> --
> The only good news is Frye's posterior ligament was not torn, which would have threatened his availability for training camp and potentially damaged his career. The Knicks announced Frye will be on crutches for three weeks before beginning rehab.
> 
> In a carefully worded statement, the Knicks announced, "If all goes well, we anticipate him being available for summer league in July."
> 
> It's a rare basketball injury, normally associated with getting hit by a car. In the second half Tuesday, Andre Barrett, after being pushed by Nate Robinson, crashed headfirst into Frye's knee.
> 
> It was horrible timing, as Brown admitted he was on the verge of starting Frye, 22, the remainder of the season. Frye made his first start in a month on Tuesday.
> 
> "It would've been a good time for him the last 16 games," Brown said. "Malik [Rose] getting hurt, changing what our plans were the rest of the year, he would've gotten more and more of an opportunity."
> 
> After a terrific first two months, Frye slumped in January but still was a virtual untouchable at the trading deadline.
> 
> Frye blazed from the perimeter but his defense was suspect. The Knicks need him to become a better rebounder, shot-blocker and interior presence to make him more effective alongside center Eddy Curry, who is none of those things.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/65845.htm



> Larry Brown sent a message to Steve Francis last night in Orlando: Step up or shut up.
> 
> In his Orlando homecoming, Francis got humiliated by the Knick coach, benched across the final three quarters of last night's disgusting 111-87 blowout Knick loss to the Magic.
> 
> Despite Quentin Richardson's return, Brown still started Francis against his old club, but yanked him with 44 seconds left in the first quarter. Francis never returned. He committed three turnovers and scored just two points, booed each time he touched the ball.
> 
> The shocking incident occurred one day after Francis proclaimed he'll deal with not starting this season but wants a trade if he doesn't start next year.
> 
> Francis' snub also occurred in front of vacationing owner James Dolan, sitting at midcourt in the sixth row with his children. Dolan added $48 million in payroll in the Francis trade one month ago. Dolan bolted midway through the fourth quarter.
> 
> Brown also benched the Knicks' other expensive new addition, Jalen Rose, for the final three quarters.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/65844.htm

The Knicks are a prime example of why guaranteed contracts are a bad thing.



> "I looked out there and it looked like a lot of guys just didn't care," Brown said after the Knicks fell to 19-48. "That's tough, but you gotta keep finding the people that do (care) and hope you have enough of them."


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/402241p-340696c.html



> Opposing defenses learned to guard Frye closely, denying him the open jumpers he hit in the early weeks of the season.
> 
> "I think people recognized what a big-time shooter he was, obviously," Brown said. "That's something we've been talking about since the first days. He's got to learn to put it on the floor a little bit more."
> 
> Brown compared Frye to Toronto's Chris Bosh, now an All-Star, who was similarly limited as a rookie.
> 
> "When Bosh came in the league, he didn't put it on the floor and face up and go by people. He was more of a low-post player and standstill jump shooter," Brown said. "I think good players and good prospects learn from their experiences."


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/23/sports/basketball/23knicks.html?_r=1&oref=login



> Jameer Nelson, on former teammate Steve Francis' fall from grace: "Every time I flip on the TV and see him in that (New York) uniform, I just laugh."


http://www.nj.com/weblogs/knicks/


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Knicks are last years Bulls! They're going to turn it around just watch! Curry = Shaq.


----------



## L.O.B

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*










I might have to use that picture as a background. Like Jameer Nelson, every time is see Stevie and Jalen in those uni's I just laugh and laugh. The only thing that makes me chuckle more then that picture, is that Marbury and Franchise still believe that other teams would want them. Don't they realize that they've reached the end of the line? MSG has become a contract grave yard, it's where contracts go to wait for their walk year.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Best google bomb ever found via Yaysports:

http://www.google.com/search?svnum=...btnG=Search&percentage_served=100&sa=N&tab=iw


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> *Brown criticized his players' effort following the Magic's 111-87 victory, saying that it "looked like a lot of guys just didn't care," while Jerome James provided a revealing look into the locker room when he said, "There are a lot of guys wondering what is going on."
> 
> Most of the team has lost faith in Brown and, according to one source, many have talked openly about playing elsewhere next season. *


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/402444p-340865c.html


----------



## badfish

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

From the above article, Jalen says...



> "I made up my mind on the airplane coming here (to New York) that I was not going to be a part of anything but the score of the game."


Looks like he's all "growed" up now. LOL...I can just see Jalen debating the pros and cons of his decision with himself on the airplane.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> "It's extremely frustrating and disappointing," Rose said about the season. "I'm really kind of embarrassed to be part of what's going on - and I'm a big part of it.
> 
> "I'm not pointing any fingers at anybody. This is embarrassing for the franchise, it's embarrassing for each and every one of us in this locker room.
> 
> "And I'm sorry that I couldn't do more to avoid this."


Like taking early retirement? :laugh:

Larry Brown is a hypocrite...and I don't like using that word:



> At yesterday's shootaround, Brown reiterated that the end of the season is an audition, and he not only wants good game performances but also good practice habits and *players who keep their mouths shut instead of popping off to the press.*


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/65995.htm


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> Like taking early retirement? :laugh:
> 
> Larry Brown is a hypocrite...and I don't like using that word:
> 
> 
> http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/65995.htm


yeah, Larry has room to talk!! He has always mouthed off to the press.


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Knicks are last years Bulls! They're going to turn it around just watch! Curry = Shaq.


I actually did expect them to turn it around sometime or another, but after all this, I think it's a lost cause, though I'm still waiting to see what will be done in the offseason.



> Larry Brown is a hypocrite


Not to mention alot more 



> Like taking early retirement? :laugh:


Nonsense, his expiring contract allows Thomas to take back more contracts.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Larry Brown:



> "One thing I realize, when you don't have anything to play for, you find out a lot about character," the Knicks' coach said yesterday after practice in Greenburgh.


----------



## wizardsfan2006

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Knicks are last years Bulls! They're going to turn it around just watch! Curry = Shaq.


 :raised_ey


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> The Knicks played the fourth quarter at the Target Center yesterday like it mattered. The Knicks were getting blown out by the woeful Timberwolves, falling behind by 25 points in the second quarter before a stunning rally fell short in a 98-94 down-to-the-wire defeat.
> 
> Even Kevin Garnett said Minnesota should've "destroyed" the Knicks after a 55-35 first half.
> 
> It's been only misery for Larry Brown, but after the Knicks lost their 50th game before April, Brown managed to say, "It was fun watching them compete."
> --
> The Knicks' fifth straight loss, dropping them a season-worst 19-50, wasn't sealed until Jackie Butler, Knicks down two, had the inbounds knocked away by Anthony Carter with five seconds left on what looked like a reach-in foul. Butler said he was slapped on the hand.
> 
> Brown was furious at the call, *especially when a referee yelled back at Brown, "It doesn't matter."*


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/63705.htm



> The Knicks, who fell to 19-50, outscored Minnesota 59-43 in the second half.
> 
> "We could have easily given up and moved on with our lives," Crawford said. "That's embarrassing and nobody wants to be embarrassed. So we had to get out there and play as hard as we can."


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/403417p-341675c.html

How many seasons and coaches did it take for that to sink in?


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Those of us who like the entertainment value of Marbury/Brown can find another fan in Paul Pierce:

Pierce: NY soap’s good for league 



> NEW YORK - Paul Pierce has been taking in the feud between Knicks coach Larry Brown and star Stephon Marbury.
> 
> “I enjoy it,” Pierce cracked before the Celts beat the Knicks, 123-98, last night. *“It’s one of the daily soap operas I check out.* I think it’s good for the NBA. You need something like this to keep people into it. You had Shaq and Kobe in L.A., and now that they’ve made up you needed something else. So you’ve got Stephon and the coach now. It’s all a soap opera. It’s just shifted to New York now.”


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Another article (NY Post) with PP comments about NY:

There's No D in Knicks



> March 30, 2006 -- Paul Pierce had a whole box of peanut M&Ms in his locker, and he stuffed one pack inside a reporter's suit pocket after last night's 123-98 demolition of the Knicks. That's how Pierce and the Celtics must've felt on the Garden floor - like kids in a candy store.
> Pierce tied for team-high honors with 22 points, as six Celtics reached double figures in a despicable defensive showing by the home team.
> 
> "This is a poor defensive team," Pierce said of the Knicks. "This is not a very good team. They have very good talent, but not a very good team."
> 
> Pierce rewarded the aforementioned reporter for asking a particularly leading and obvious question that began with, "Fifty-seven percent or something as a team. That's pretty good." "It definitely is," Pierce said, letting the Celt shooting percentage speak for itself as he began chuckling.
> 
> 
> 
> The Knicks (19-51), meanwhile, have revealed themselves as a laughingstock. The biggest question heading into the game was whether Stephon Marbury and Wally Szczerbiak would bury the hatchet. They did.
> 
> Right before tipoff, Marbury walked over to Szczerbiak and grabbed hands, and Marbury tapped the Cold Spring Harbor native on the back and butt. And then, the drubbing was on. Szczerbiak scored 22 points on 7-of-13 shooting.
> 
> Back when he was still a member of the Timberwolves, Szczerbiak bulldozed Marbury with a pick. The Knick point guard missed 11 of the next 16 games with a sprained left shoulder, effectively torpedoing the team's season. Last night was the first meeting of the players since the incident.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I will miss this soap opera when/if they improve. I hope someone writes one of those behind the scenes books.

Mitch Lawrence chimes in:



> "As I told the team, maybe we'll walk the ball up the rest of the year and call a play every time, so the other team can't score 120 points and shoot 57%," Larry Brown said after the troops laid down at the opening tip and never got up off the floor.
> 
> "Show some heart!" yelled one fan behind the Knicks' bench during the third quarter.
> 
> This bunch? Never. Isiah Thomas has assembled the biggest collection of quitters and losers to ever put on the Knicks uniform.
> 
> "They have a collection of names," Boston coach Doc Rivers said. "Like Raef (LaFrentz) said, they might be the best worst team ever."
> --
> Don't think a training camp will solve anything, either. Brown admitted afterward that he's been saying the same elementary things for 70 games and still, no one is listening. Things like getting his forwards to run the passing lanes. Things like who goes where when they're setting up their offense. Things like matching up on foul shots.
> 
> In 30-plus years of coaching, he's never had a team refuse to do what he wants, not to this extent. It's like he's got a team of 12 Stephon Marburys.
> 
> "It blows my mind," he said. "It's mind-boggling."
> 
> They're just going through the motions. Running. Jumping. Making themselves look busy. "Trying to invent plays," Brown said.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/404319p-342416c.html


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Back when he was still a member of the Timberwolves, Szczerbiak bulldozed Marbury with a pick. The Knick point guard missed 11 of the next 16 games with a sprained left shoulder, *effectively torpedoing the team's season.*


Worst. Oversimplification. Ever.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> Worst. Oversimplification. Ever.


I've got to agree with you here, *Penguin!* May have actually allowed the Knick to win more games than they would have otherwise!


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Stats:



> Just look at these dismal numbers.
> 
> 28 - amount of double digit losses. 28 into 51 is 54.9 percent as in nearly 55 percent of the defeats have been by more than 10 points
> 
> Last year that amount was 4 under Lenny Wilkens and 11 more under Herb Williams for a total of 15.
> 
> 3.4 - average number of blocks per game. The Nets are right there in that category also at 3.4 but their starting center doesn’t average 0.8 blocks per game and has compiled 34 games without a blocked shot.
> 
> 18.0 - how many assists per game for the Knicks. That puts them last in the league.
> 
> 17.0 - how many turnovers per game for the Knicks, the worst number in the league.
> 
> You get the idea. Unless Larry Brown can suit up, these numbers probably won’t change. You can speculate all you want on who has tuned him out and who hasn’t. But regardless of listening skills, there’s no fundamental skills on this team as presently constructed and considering the message has been the same for 70 games plus a month in preseason, it might be time to look at the players.


http://knicks.mostvaluablenetwork.com/


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The thing to remember about the Knicks is they have a bunch of guys who can erupt for 25+ points on any given night. They should be fine.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

It's a shame they traded away Tim Thomas. He would have probably gotten them 20 more wins this season.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Eddy is out?



> "Obviously, when you have the worst record in the league, you're not going to stand pat," Brown said. "We got 12 games to continue to find out who values the things we want. If we find three of them, they'll be back. If we find five of them, they'll be back. If we find 12 of them, they'll be back.
> 
> "When April 19 comes around, everything changes. It's not about this group. It's about the Knicks and how we can make the Knicks better. All I'm looking forward to is coaching these 12 games and then April 19, getting with 'Zeke' and making it better."
> 
> Brown said he wants to keep players with a defensive mindset who buy into the program. The list, then, is not long. It likely includes Quentin Richardson, Qyntel Woods, David Lee, Jackie Butler, Malik Rose and Channing Frye.
> *
> Big names such as Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Jalen Rose and center Eddy Curry have not earned their stripes with Brown.* Veterans such as Jerome James and Maurice Taylor, Brown would pay for their one-way ticket out of LaGuardia. Taylor and Rose will have expiring contracts, giving them trade value. The Knicks have two late first-round picks to peddle.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/63780.htm



> In another discredit to the franchise, ABC yanked the Knicks-Sixers game from Sunday's telecast, so the game was pushed back from 1 p.m. to 6 p.m


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/63783.htm



> Brown decided not to begin yesterday's practice in Greenburgh with a film session because "this film is exactly like 50 other films that I've shown." Instead, he felt it was important to tell the players to suspend their disbelief and treat the final 12 games as if they were the playoffs.
> 
> "We've got to realize that you play differently in the playoffs," said Brown, whose team faces the Sixers - clinging to the eighth spot in the East - twice over the next three days, beginning tonight at the Garden. "You've got to control tempo. It's imperative that you take care of the ball. You've got to play harder than you thought about playing at any time of the year, even though you hope that's a given."


Then he shoots himself and the team in the foot:



> Incredibly, Brown said yesterday that he knew as far back as training camp that the team he inherited was doomed.
> 
> "I knew it in Charleston," Brown said.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/404456p-342536c.html


Want a t-shirt? http://jailisiah.com/

Check the attached picture too.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

This thread truely has an appropriate title.

I think the shadenfreude we feel in regard to the Knicks demise is related primarily to three things :

1. The obvious advantage to the Bulls of a poor Knicks record this year and next.

2. The come-uppance that arrogant, non-team players, including several ex-Bulls have gotten in NY. 
It's good to see selfish, no-defense chuckers fail in this context.

3. The gradual, inevitable deflation of the vast ego-bubbles of Thomas and Brown. 
One more year in NY together, and no-one will be accusing these egomanics of possessing basketball genious in their respective capacities.

4. Last, but not least, it's good to see the New York approach to building professional sports teams (outspending their competition for talented players) fail miserably. 
Baseball has disgraced itself by allowing this to occur. 
Apparently the measures that the NBA has taken to prevent this are working well.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



McBulls said:


> This thread truely has an appropriate title.
> 
> I think the shadenfreude we feel in regard to the Knicks demise is related primarily to three things :
> 
> 1. The obvious advantage to the Bulls of a poor Knicks record this year and next.
> 
> 2. The come-uppance that arrogant, non-team players, including several ex-Bulls have gotten in NY.
> It's good to see selfish, no-defense chuckers fail in this context.
> 
> 3. The gradual, inevitable deflation of the vast ego-bubbles of Thomas and Brown.
> One more year in NY together, and no-one will be accusing these egomanics of possessing basketball genious in their respective capacities.
> 
> 4. Last, but not least, it's good to see the New York approach to building professional sports teams (outspending their competition for talented players) fail miserably.
> Baseball has disgraced itself by allowing this to occur.
> Apparently the measures that the NBA has taken to prevent this are working well.



1. True

2. I can't say that on an individual level I want to see any person fail. Laughing at an individual for his failure, except in rare cases is mean and base and ignoble. However, I must admit some glee in seeing the fall of a certain theory of building a basketball team, the theory of developling certain types players, and in seeing the crumbling of a rival basketball organization. It's that "I told you so" thing. Some of it is justified and fine, some of it is simply being human. 

3. Who ever accused Isaiah of being anything more than a good scout? He is not, and never has shown any talent for being an executive.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> 2. I can't say that on an individual level I want to see any person fail. Laughing at an individual for his failure, except in rare cases is mean and base and ignoble. However, I must admit some glee in seeing the fall of a certain theory of building a basketball team, the theory of developling certain types players, and in seeing the crumbling of a rival basketball organization. It's that "I told you so" thing. Some of it is justified and fine, some of it is simply being human.


Maybe failure is too strong a way to put it. The Knicks have players whose historic offensive statistics are well above average at every position and on the bench. Obviously shooting skills (or shooting propensity) alone have not been enough to guarantee even mediocre team performance this year. 

All too often one sees fans on the internet (and some general managers like IT) sizing up a team's prospects largely on the basis of the historic offensive and rebounding statistics of its individual players. This may be due to the relative ease of tracking scoring stats, and/or to the existance of popular fantasy games. But at least half of the game (e.g., defense) is poorly captured by offensive and rebounding statistics. The flaw is clearly revealed by the lack of success of the Knicks.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

double post.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I really think Isaiah built this team with himself and his coaching style in mind.


----------



## YearofDaBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



McBulls said:


> Maybe failure is too strong a way to put it. The Knicks have players whose historic offensive statistics are well above average at every position and on the bench. Obviously shooting skills (or shooting propensity) alone have not been enough to guarantee even mediocre team performance this year.
> 
> All too often one sees fans on the internet (and some general managers like IT) sizing up a team's prospects largely on the basis of the historic offensive and rebounding statistics of its individual players. This may be due to the relative ease of tracking scoring stats, and/or to the existance of popular fantasy games. But at least half of the game (e.g., defense) is poorly captured by offensive and rebounding statistics. The flaw is clearly revealed by the lack of success of the Knicks.


Seriously, I'm loving it. I'm really shocked that Isiah is still there. I mean the guy is terrible. The Knicks are a perfect example of why you still need to play defense in the NBA.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Sam Smith has a column, full of anonymous quotes, looking at Brown, Riley and Jackson's coaching this year and it isn't very nice to Larry:



> Larry Brown
> 
> "Well," said one coach, "we can eliminate Larry from the discussion early." Colleagues have been stunned as they've watched Brown this season fail to motivate or improve the team, instead creating more problems as the season progressed.
> 
> "Larry's teams always get better as the season goes on, even the ones without much talent," said one general manager. "This has gone the other way."
> 
> Even proteges have been scratching their heads about his curious stops and starts. "I thought he'd be playing just the kids by now, but he's all over the place," said one. What has also surprised many is the way the media-savvy Brown has been overwhelmed in New York. "He usually uses the media for motivation," said one coach, "but whether it's psychology or him just having to talk, he's gotten himself in trouble and made things worse."
> 
> Added a team official: "Part of a coach's job is to create an identity for your team or at least try. Has he even tried? All the lineup changes, the confrontations with players. I know he has a philosophy of how to play, but he hasn't come close to selling any part of it to his team."
> 
> Some said not to judge too quickly and the Knicks would be much better after personnel changes this summer, but said one player, "I think this tells you that you need great players to win championships. Coaches don't win championships."


More at http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...pr03,1,3122719.story?coll=cs-basketball-print


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

LB may have earned the right to screw up an entire season with confused coaching and less than supportive public comments about most of the key players on his squad. But his reputation for improving teams after poor starts will really be put to the test next season. 

It's hard to see how the Knicks can get much better during the off-season, and it's not hard to envision them getting worse: 

1. The Knicks best player, Marbury, has been carryed the team this year (to the extent they were successful at all), and he is now clearly demoralized. Both he and the team are looking for a way for him to leave. It's unlikely that the Knicks will get much in return. 
2. Francis seems to have lost a step and adds little to a mediocre backcout. 
3. A year of tutoring from LB has not significantly improved Curry's defense. Look for him to gain record weight in the off-season now that he has a fat contract and management less dedicated to off-season conditioning. 
4. The team is currently best constructed for a wide-open, high scoring, high energy style of play. But LB is probably the wrong guy to implement a Phoenix-like approach to the game.
5. Major changes in team makeup via the free agent market will be very challenging, with little other than Fry and low draft pics as trade bait in sign and trade senarios. 
6. IT seems to be out of ammunition. Few tradable assets. Lousy draft pics as far as the eye can see. A team salary and luxury taxes that must try even Dolan's patience. And last, but not least, demoralized NY fans and media.

So the most likely senario is that the Knicks will not improve much next year. As a Bulls fan I hope the inevitable changes in the front office and/or coaching staff come later rather than sooner so next years draft choice has a chance of being as good as this years.


----------



## dkg1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Wow, if anyone has some extra time on your hands, peruse through the beginning of this thread. There are some priceless posts in here! While I thought the Knicks would blow this year, I never expected this.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Two things, i am really surpised that LB has not done any better than he has. The players were not the only ones that gave up on this team! 

I agree McBulls. This team should run and run a lot. But thats not LB style. So, he may never be successful with the players IT has assembled. 

I hope they wait one more year to address problems.  There is not a lot they can do anyway.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Daly, who coached Knicks president Isiah Thomas in Detroit, believes his former superstar point guard knows what it takes to build a perfect team, even giving him credit for helping Detroit construct its two championship teams in the late 1980's. The new book contains sports legends naming their "perfect team."
> 
> Daly, 75, retired in Jupiter, Fla., said Thomas is "collecting assets" to make the key trade that will turn around the franchise.
> 
> "Isiah got thrust into it," Daly told The Post in a phone interview. "The spiral started long before that. Isiah was being very proactive. They are garnering talent. They have multiple talents like point guards. They're evaluating and collecting assets.
> 
> "There is no question Isiah Thomas has a great eye for talent," Daly added. "Check his picks in Toronto. No question Larry Brown is a great coach. Those circumstances have to come together. Now the talent doesn't mesh."
> 
> Most New Yorkers would not disagree with Daly's view as the Knicks yesterday fell to a season-worst 34 games under .500 (19-53) after a 114-95 loss to the Sixers. The Knicks need to go 3-7 in their last 10 to avoid finishing with the worst record in franchise history.
> 
> Things have gotten so bad, white T-shirts inscripted with the words "Fire Isiah" are being peddled on a website www.sadknicks.com.
> 
> According to Daly, Thomas had great influence in personnel decisions even in Detroit and it's known he influenced Pistons management to trade with the Mavericks for Mark Aguirre during the 1988-89 season.
> 
> "He had a lot to do with building that team," Daly said of Thomas. "He knows what it takes to win. He's a very, very bright guy. This kills him more than any person in New York and you can write that. He was very involved in that franchise's decisions with [former GM] Jack McClosky."


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/63950.htm



> Brown was critical of Robinson's behavior during Philadelphia's win over the Knicks on Friday in New York. Robinson scored a career-high 34 points but angered Brown by strutting and pumping his chest after several baskets. It was particularly appalling to Brown since Iverson, whom Robinson allegedly was guarding, finished with 47 points.
> 
> "I was just trying to point out to him, you get a standing ovation and pump your chest and Allen's got 25,000 points and he acted like (it was) no big deal," Brown told him.
> 
> To which Robinson replied: "I told him, of course not now. Probably when he (Iverson) was young he was doing the exact same thing."


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/405431p-343349c.html


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

People talk about how nobody is going to want to come play on the Bulls. You think Stevie Franchise wouldn't be happy to be surrounded by a bunch of scrappy, hustling floorburn guys right about now?

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/04/04/sports/s190852D39.DTL



> Washington Wizards coach Eddie Jordan was concerned that his team would play down to the level of the woeful New York Knicks. No worries there.
> 
> 
> Knicks coach Larry Brown said he's reached the point where he's "begging guys to play," and Steve Francis was on the verge of tears.
> 
> 
> A game against the worst team in the East turned out to be the ideal homecoming for the Wizards, who got 13 points and a season-high 13 assists from Gilbert Arenas in a 105-90 rout Tuesday night.





> "They came in with so much more energy, it was like the varsity against the JV," Brown said. "You've got to keep trying. Somehow you've got to find five guys who care enough to compete. I hate to say that because you take away from (the Wizards players) and what they did, but you've got to hope you have enough pride to compete. I never in my life thought I'd be in a position where you're begging guys to play."





> "Besides my mom passing away when I was 18, this is top three, definitely, just because this is my livelihood," Francis said. "Basketball is what I do. To be able to come out here and not being able to help this Knicks organization win is tough. I think a lot of the players don't realize that you only have one basketball career and it doesn't last as long as you think. The money might be there, but actually being out there on the court, that (stuff) doesn't last. And until people realize that and realize that you have to help each other and not be so selfish and worry about how many points you score, we're going to be stuck in the same position, same place."
> 
> 
> "It's like a funeral, man," Francis said, his eyes welling up. "That's what it feels like."


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> You think Stevie Franchise wouldn't be happy to be surrounded by a bunch of scrappy, hustling floorburn guys right about now?
> 
> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/04/04/sports/s190852D39.DTL


There's more from this game in a NY Times article that True Hoops kindly quoted from this morning for those of us who don't want to be NY Times select readers:

http://www.truehoop.com/new-york-knicks-10367-isiah-thomas-is-the-new-bob-whitsitt.html


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Whoops, TB#1 already had it ^^.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



narek said:


> There's more from this game in a NY Times article that True Hoops kindly quoted from this morning for those of us who don't want to be NY Times select readers:
> 
> http://www.truehoop.com/new-york-knicks-10367-isiah-thomas-is-the-new-bob-whitsitt.html



You don't have to be a Times Select reader to read the article...just a plain registration. Use bugmenot. om



> The implication was that there are not, and that sentiment was echoed by two of the Knicks' most dedicated veterans, Malik Rose and Quentin Richardson.
> 
> "I played for the Clippers when we were bad," Richardson said. "I ain't never been around nothing like this. I never lost games like this. And it just seems like we don't care."
> --
> Rose angrily kicked the scorer's table before leaving the court at halftime and in the postgame meeting, he expressed his frustrations.
> 
> "We miss a shot and we're not helping one another," Rose said, repeating some of his message. "Guys are getting layup after layup after layup, no one's helping anybody out there, and then we don't come down and share the ball. I don't understand that. It's not what I'm used to."
> 
> He called the meeting "semiproductive."
> 
> "Will it make a difference? I don't know," Rose said. "I doubt it, to be honest. But at this point, it's to a point where I had to say something. And if it falls on deaf ears, so be it. I'm going to just keep doing what I'm doing."
> 
> Rose speaks with the experience of a two-time N.B.A. champion, an honor he earned as a role player with the San Antonio Spurs. *But few of his teammates have found success in the pros, and Rose suggested that some had bad habits that could not easily be changed.*


Told you they were going to blame the Bulls organization and the start that Eddy and Jamal had there. They'll say it more explicitly later.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> A majority of the players, led by Marbury, tuned out Brown long ago. Now, players are acting insubordinate toward him and displaying a lack of respect. Players openly talk back to Brown during games or just ignore him completely.
> 
> Nate Robinson's relationship with Brown is deteriorating. After being criticized for taking ill-advised shots, Robinson attempted just one shot in 26 minutes last night. Robinson's defiant behavior was similar to what Marbury did during a game against Orlando in December.
> 
> "I told (Nate) it's just as selfish not taking an open shot as it is not passing the ball," Brown said.
> --
> "I was put in a situation where I really had no say with what goes on," Francis said. "I just have to go out and be professional about it."
> 
> Plus, he can leave the bickering to Marbury and Nate Robinson, both of whom have exchanged insults publicly with Brown. Francis should follow the example set by Jamal Crawford, who has remained close to Marbury without letting it affect his work habits, attitude or Brown's feelings toward him.
> 
> Robinson isn't as savvy as his Seattle pal and has put himself in danger of being traded this summer, just like Marbury.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/406168p-343931c.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/406166p-343929c.html


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

>>Eddy Curry's foot is troubling him, and he's been limping. He said he could have plantar fasciatis . . . <<


----------



## L.O.B

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> Told you they were going to blame the Bulls organization and the start that Eddy and Jamal had there. They'll say it more explicitly later.


This is going to come as a shock to most who know my view on Jamal, but if there is one person that has raised his trade value on the Knicks this season, it's Crawford. He has probably handled the chaos the best out of the Knicks back court, then again Jamal is very used to losing.  

BTW this whole Knicks fiasco is down right funny. Franchise is crying about team victories instead being the focus of the team. Where is the real Steve Francis? 

Quentin Richardson is saying it's worse than any Clipper team that he was on. oh my that's really bad.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

NY has some youth but for the most part its a veteran club. 

Imo opinion one of theings that hurts this team is the fact that they have 4 players, all guards, that need the ball in their hands! J. Rose, Jamal, Marbury, and the franchise. There is only one ball. Actually add in Robinson, he needs the ball in his hands. 

Brown has not done a good job, but then, no one else has before him with this rag-tag group. If Wilkens and Brown cannot do anything with them, no one can.


----------



## TRUTHHURTS

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> People talk about how nobody is going to want to come play on the Bulls. You think Stevie Franchise wouldn't be happy to be surrounded by a bunch of scrappy, hustling floorburn guys right about now?
> 
> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/04/04/sports/s190852D39.DTL



Steve francis is garbage and a shell of the player he once was . He would hate to be on the Bullls because they would magnify how much he doesnt scrap or get floor burns or hustle . 

I saw him bring the ball up dribble for 15 second and then drive into the heart of the defense and lose the ball .

I think some players will want to play for us but the players who are the top of their games and know it are not gonna want to put up with some of skiles antics. Im sure there are a couple of players that will but the majority wont.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



truebluefan said:


> If Wilkens and Brown cannot do anything with them, no one can.



PJ?


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> PJ?


The triangle offense would be interesting, especially with Curry, I just don't know how I'd feel relying on Marbury, Franchise, Rose and Q-Rich to step it up.
But considering there's also defense, which nobody on this team is really renowned for, I don't think things would look good.

The coach I feel who would work wonders is Mike D'Antoni.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



step said:


> The triangle offense would be interesting, especially with Curry, I just don't know how I'd feel relying on Marbury, Franchise, Rose and Q-Rich to step it up.
> But considering there's also defense, which nobody on this team is really renowned for, I don't think things would look good.
> 
> The coach I feel who would work wonders is Mike D'Antoni.



D'Antoni would let the team run and that's one thing those guys are good at. During one of the Bulls/Knicks games Jonny Mac said if the Knicks stopped playing a half court game and just ran, they'd have a lot better record. And the Knicks staged a comeback in that game just doing that.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TRUTHHURTS said:


> Steve francis is garbage and a shell of the player he once was . He would hate to be on the Bullls because they would magnify how much he doesnt scrap or get floor burns or hustle .
> 
> I saw him bring the ball up dribble for 15 second and then drive into the heart of the defense and lose the ball .
> 
> I think some players will want to play for us but the players who are the top of their games and know it are not gonna want to put up with some of skiles antics. Im sure there are a couple of players that will but the majority wont.


actually francis does hustle , i was surprised to see it but he scrapes , and is all over the place attacking opposing post players and rebounding ...not saying he is the greatest defender but he is trying out there ...his offense has been horrible though , he just doesn't have a clue.


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Knicks playing the LeBron-less Cavs tomorrow night. It wouldnt surprise me if they snatch another W.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Larry got tired of Baseball making the back pages of the tabloids:


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

And the plot thickens.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Question:

If the Knicks and Trailblazers tie for the worst record, who will end up getting the most lottery balls? Will they split the difference between the amount the worst and second worst team get, or will they go to tie-breakers?

And if they do, which ones do they use? Conference play? Head to head? 

I know they split their season series 1-1, but I'm not sure what their conference records are.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



rosenthall said:


> Question:
> 
> If the Knicks and Trailblazers tie for the worst record, who will end up getting the most lottery balls? Will they split the difference between the amount the worst and second worst team get, or will they go to tie-breakers?
> 
> And if they do, which ones do they use? Conference play? Head to head?
> 
> I know they split their season series 1-1, but I'm not sure what their conference records are.


My understanding is that if they tie they split the ping-pong balls. The tie-breakers come in only for determining the relative position of the choices if they fail to win one of the lottery slots and the second round draft choices.

Anyway, Portland is seriously tanking the season, so NY will most likely give us the #2 spot.


----------



## El Chapu

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Yup, lottery will look like this:

1- Blazers
2- Knicks
3- Bobcats
4- Hawks
5- Raptors

And you look up for the rest :biggrin: 

So we have a Top 5 pick. Not bad!


----------



## The ROY

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I expect these guys to be taken in the top 5 :

Aldridge
Bargnani
Thomas
Morrison
Noah (if he declares)


----------



## dkg1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Big toilet bowl matchup tonight between Charlotte and New York at MSG. Ping Pong balls will be on the line.

One more thing. How much worse can things get for the Knicks? In our local paper, a high school athletic trainer writes a sports medicine column once a week. Even he is throwing cheap shots at the Knicks. As someone who has long despised the Knicks, I love it!

http://nwitimes.com/articles/2006/0...lumnists/470d09f365b50fb08625715200791fdf.txt


Two NBA stars missed either all or part of Thursday night's game at Cleveland between the Knicks and Cavaliers.

LeBron James didn't play at all having sprained his ankle the night before during a game at Detroit. By the time the game was over, New York head coach Larry Brown also was missing, having been taken to the hospital by ambulance because of a "stomach ailment."

Early speculation has Brown missing the rest of the season. If I had had to sit courtside through a conference-worst 57 losses (as of this writing) after leading another team to the NBA championship the year before, I guess I'd be sick to my stomach, too. Brown probably finds Eddy Curry's uninspired 13.7 points and 6.1 rebounds per game additionally nauseating.

As the Bulls approach a finish similar to last year's, much like the Knicks are, the only real difference from 12 months ago is that the Bulls now hold the Knicks' first-round lottery pick in the upcoming draft. John Paxson may or may not know much about cardiology, but he certainly showed his acumen for psychiatry when he determined that Curry has no heart.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The Knicks insured Brown's contract in case he left because of medical issues:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/409470p-346561c.html



> AUBURN HILLS - The Knicks took out an insurance policy on Larry Brown's record contract last summer to protect the club in the event that Brown is forced to resign for medical reasons, a league source told the Daily News.
> 
> The language in the contract does not preclude Brown from taking another NBA or college job should the Hall of Fame coach and the Knicks sever ties, a scenario that is gaining momentum with each passing day. Brown, 65, is in the first season of a five-year, $50 million contract.
> 
> Last night, Brown missed his second straight game while convalescing at his Greenwich, Conn., home from a recent bout of acid reflux. Neither the club nor Brown's representatives has given any indication whether Brown will be on the bench for tonight's home finale against the Charlotte Bobcats. The Knicks conclude the 2005-06 season on Wednesday in New Jersey.
> 
> Herb Williams, who is serving as head coach in Brown's absence, spoke to Brown twice over the past two days and reported that he sounded "okay" but that they didn't discuss whether Brown would return for either of the last two games.
> 
> "It probably depends on how he feels," Williams said last night. "At this point it's no use to rush him back. He has to take care of himself."


Weird.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

What are the odds that Larry Brown will be coaching the Knicks this time next year?

I'd bet 3-1 that he won't be.


----------



## SecretAgentGuy

*OT: Knicks Insured Brown's Contract*

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2411137



> NEW YORK -- The New York Knicks took out an insurance policy on Larry Brown's contract that would free the team from paying the remainder of the coach's contract if he's forced to resign due to health issues, the New York Daily News reported Monday.
> 
> The newspaper, citing an anonymous league source, reported that the Knicks made the move when Brown signed his record five-year, $50 million contract. The newspaper also said the contract would not prevent Brown from taking another NBA or college job if he and the Knicks part ways.


Sounds like the pieces are in place for Brown and the Knicks to split ways peacefully. Are the Knicks better or worse without Brown next season?


----------



## SecretAgentGuy

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



narek said:


> The Knicks insured Brown's contract in case he left because of medical issues:
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/409470p-346561c.html
> 
> 
> 
> Weird.


 Doh! Just posted this on our board. Sorry mods!

The conspiracy theorist in me says that Brown won't be back in NY next season. And for the sake of our draft pick that's a good thing.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: OT: Knicks Insured Brown's Contract*

DEFININTELY worse....


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Knicks Insured Brown's Contract*



> The conspiracy theorist in me says that Brown won't be back in NY next season. And for the sake of our draft pick that's a good thing.


I'm sensing he'll try again, but walk away at the deadline or thereabouts, citing health reasons, to only find another job next season.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Man. Knicks coach develops stomach problems, including acid reflux.

[_Fill in your own punchline here_]


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

"acid reflux"? i wouldn't be surprised if it's an ulcer. i mean think about it.

anyway, i think at the end of the day *larry brown's ego* is just way too big to walk away at this point. too much money on the table too. i think he, in a mid-summer power play, ousts zeke and takes over as GM, eventually moving up to the front office full time and hiring a different coach. oh, and he'll trade nearly every player.

i think he'll be back next year.


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> and he'll trade nearly every player.


With that squad, deservedly so.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> "acid reflux"? i wouldn't be surprised if it's an ulcer. i mean think about it.
> 
> anyway, i think at the end of the day *larry brown's ego* is just way too big to walk away at this point. too much money on the table too. i think he, in a mid-summer power play, ousts zeke and takes over as GM, eventually moving up to the front office full time and hiring a different coach. oh, and he'll trade nearly every player.
> 
> i think he'll be back next year.



The mid-summer palace revolt senario seems plausible, but he looks too sick to continue with the stresses of coaching for much longer. What good is all the money if you are dead? 

After a certain age, people don't work for the money any longer if they have been reasonably successul and prudent with their spending. Surely LB is one of those people. Even if he's not, it would not be difficult to get a medical excuse for retiring and collecting the remainder of his insured contract. What does he stand to gain by staying around as a GM? He's knows better than we do just how screwed up the Knicks enterprise is and how many years it will take to bring it back to mediocrity.

So, I bet he opts out altogether in the next year or so.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Knicks Insured Brown's Contract*



sp00k said:


> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2411137
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like the pieces are in place for Brown and the Knicks to split ways peacefully. Are the Knicks better or worse without Brown next season?


I think the Knicks would be better with another coach. The team as currently constituted simply is too far away from the Brown model to ever fit it. 

For example, if Rick Patino could be persuaded to come back to New York the Knicks record would improve a lot right away.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I agree that the Knicks need a coach to fit their style.

Henry Clark may be available. I'm not sure if there would be a buyout involved, but even so, it may be worth it.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I agree that the Knicks need a coach to fit their style.
> 
> Henry Clark may be available. I'm not sure if there would be a buyout involved, but even so, it may be worth it.


Frank Isola had a piece in the Daily News today (link is http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/409827p-346823c.html) that speculated at possible coaches:



> Last Friday, Florida's Billy Donovan sat in Dolan's seats between Garden president Steve Mills and Garden vice chairman Hank Ratner. And since the Knicks have a habit of trying to rebuild by dealing with the Chicago Bulls, perhaps Thomas will try to negotiate the release of his old friend, Scott Skiles. Think of it this way; Skiles found success with both Marbury (with the Suns) and Eddy Curry. Brown can't say that. Not yet, anyway.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Speaking of Brown, isn't it odd to see him endorse a Steve Nash basketball fundamentals DVD in commercials running on MSG? Perhaps, for only $29.95 a player, Brown can find someone his players will listen to.


:laugh:


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/19/sports/basketball/19sandomir.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


----------



## johnston797

*Re: OT: Knicks Insured Brown's Contract*



McBulls said:


> I think the Knicks would be better with another coach. The team as currently constituted simply is too far away from the Brown model to ever fit it.
> 
> For example, if Rick Patino could be persuaded to come back to New York the Knicks record would improve a lot right away.


I agree. Brown is a quitter so I can see him gone this summer if another team comes calling. Hopefully, he pretends to want to stick it out in NY and doesn't get bought out until mid-next season. I still will be surprised if they don't move up a few slots in the draft order next year.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> The Knicks plan to heed the advice of Ben Wallace and will try to add more role players to their roster during the offseason.
> 
> One free-agent small forward Larry Brown has his eye on is the Wizards' Jared Jeffries, a 6-11 player who doesn't need the ball to be effective.
> 
> "Larry's liked Jared for a long time," one person close to Brown said. "Larry likes guys who can play multiple positions."
> 
> Jeffries could be had for the $5 million mid-level exception. He averaged 6.4 points and 4.9 rebounds this season.
> 
> "He doesn't score a lot, but he does a little of everything," one team executive said. "He's a great team player, he gets hustle points, he can bring the ball up."


nypost.com



> But here's what happened when everyone expected Brown to lead the turn-around: Most of the players, led by rebellious Starbury, packed it in, long ago. Then, as unbecoming as it is for someone with his credentials, Brown quit on his players, too. When it came to instilling discipline, Phil Jackson would have done a better job, as he has proven with the Lakers this season.
> 
> But the way Brown looks to be bowing out, with apparently the longest bout of acid reflux in recorded history, it's as shameful an exit as anyone has ever had. The final record, is the icing on the cake, even though a franchise-record 60th loss would have been the perfect ending.
> 
> In the coming weeks, Brown will probably wiggle his way out of New York and eventually land in Sacramento or some other safe haven where he can find a more receptive playmaker and a more appealing roster. When it comes to getting his freedom, there's nobody in the business who does it better.


nydailynews.com



> There were three chances Wednesday for Brown to clarify his future, but he passed on them all. Ordinarily, Brown speaks with reporters at the morning shoot-around and before and after the game. Despite league rules that require him to be available to the news media, Brown declined them all, with the consent of the Knicks' front office. After the game, Brown avoided the news media and left through a side exit closed off to reporters.
> 
> The Knicks are scheduled to hold exit interviews at their training center Thursday, and Brown is expected to speak to reporters then. Although Brown was back Wednesday, he left most of the coaching to the assistant Herb Williams.
> --
> The Knicks had the league's highest payroll, $125 million, including payments to the retired Knicks Allan Houston and Jerome Williams. The victory over the Nets saved the Knicks from finishing last in the league and from recording the first season with 60 losses in franchise history. Given the talent, the payroll and Brown's Hall of Fame credentials, team officials had reasonably expected something around a .500 record, if not a playoff berth.
> 
> "I put together our roster on 'NBA Live,' " Rose said, referring to a video game, "and we're pretty good."


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/20/sports/basketball/20knicks.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Just wondering:

Anyone think Eddy, Jalen and Jamal will get together at Hooters or someplace on Saturday to watch the Bulls game?


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Anyway, Stephon Marbury, according to the New York Times, has promised to drop a “verbal bombshell” today. I’m on pins and needles. I think it will be something complimentary about Larry Brown… but I hope that’s not the case. I’ve put together a list of 10 other things he might announce. I hope it’s one of these:
> 
> 1) He’s has purchased an MVP trophy for himself, because he deserves it.
> 2) Marbury finished the season, with the Knicks, with a record of 81-1… on NBA Live 06. Proving, of course, that he’s smarter than Larry Brown.
> 3) He may not have any idea about what a point guard is supposed to do… but he did save a lot of money on his car insurance.
> 4) He’s accepting a buyout from the Knicks and signing a new deal with the And1 Tour.
> 5) He has volunteered to let Larry Brown move in with him this summer, so he can teach Larry basketball.
> 6) This summer, on June 24th, all reporters are invited to his house where he will be retiring his own jersey and inducting himself as the charter member into the Stephon Marbury hall of fame. Admission is just $30.
> 7) He will not be playing for the US team at the World Championships this summer, because he wants to spend more time with his family. Also, because he wasn’t invited.
> 8) Next season promises to be more successful, because this summer, he is going to have Larry Brown killed.
> 9) You know how every team Stephon’s ever been on has sucked? That’s a total fluke. Sheer coincidence. He is not the problem. Nope. It’s somebody else.
> 10) He’s coming out and is ready to accept the responsibility of being the first openly gay player active in the NBA, and he would prefer to be called “Gaybury” for the rest of his career.


http://www.themightymjd.com/2006/04/20/stephon-marbury-promises-verbal-bombshell/


----------



## badfish

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> "I put together our roster on 'NBA Live,' " Rose said, referring to a video game, "and we're pretty good."


I know where that quote is going....Sport's Guy's homepage. :biggrin:


----------



## spongyfungy

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I don't know if anyone read this last week but this was just priceless :



> Jalen Rose, who practiced Wednesday after missing six games, said playing against teams with something at stake was meaningful. "Nothing feels better than spoiling another team's playoff chances," he said.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/13/sports/basketball/13knicks.html?_r=1&oref=login


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> "Nothing feels better than spoiling another team's playoff chances"


Except maybe MAKING the...

ahhh, its just too easy a target.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


>


The $50,000,000 LB "right way" vaccine. No way a team can catch the disease if they are innoculated into it.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> "Nothing feels better than spoiling another team's playoff chances"


So first Chicago, then Toronto, then New York.......

....will it be yet another team next season?!


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

wow. stephon just gave a press conference and said "this year was the best year of my career".

then when asked about larry brown he said:

no comment.


LOL.


----------



## spongyfungy

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> wow. stephon just gave a press conference and said "this year was the best year of my career".
> 
> then when asked about larry brown he said:
> 
> no comment.
> 
> 
> LOL.


 That was his verbal bombshell? best in year in terms of what?


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

From RealGM:

- i didn't know how to deal with adversity and this year, coach taught me how to deal with adversity.

- coach told me he didn't want to trade me unless it was for kobe or kg and steph told him "he should trade me for one of those guys" (everyone laughed) 
--
- when you all were winning, you were inside of a car going 100mph and had total control of the wheel. then all of the sudden you lose control and go off the cliff. that's what this season was.

- do you feel lb is the right guy to coach this team? no comment.

- what do lb and you have to do to make it to work? no comment.

- what did you learn? everybody has to come in committed but they have to change some things. everybody has to get on the same page.

- this has been the best year of my life. it's more about bball, it's about bigger picture.

- most memorable thing lb said to you today: we just gotta trust each other. we didn't trust each other this year or the year would've been alot better otherwise they wouldn't have done this in paper.

- steph told lb that he made him a better man.

- how do you achieve trust? communication, going out to eat together, know his family and he knows steph's family.

- that's why i asked for a podium so you all can hear me. no more BS in the papers so i can call you out on it.

- if lb communicated with me like he did today, they would've been in a way better position.

- how can you trust him now? b/c lb told him to trust him.

- why did you say no comment when asked if coach is the right guy for the team? no comment.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

:laugh:

Starbury is just such an unbelievable boob.


----------



## spongyfungy

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

sometimes people want to be a position where one can say "no comment" Steph is one of them.

A simple "he's our coach and he helped me" would have sufficed. no comment is worse than bashing him.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

My guess is that Marbury originally planned on calling LB out. But someone advised him of the obvious : LB probably won't be back next year, and if that's not the case, Marbury himself will be given/traded away. So what's the point of adding to your reputation as a team disrupter? None. 

So he did the sensible thing and said as little as possible without completely lying. Good for him.

The LB press conference was more disingenuous. He stated over & over that he had no problem with Marbury. My guess is that if he didn't he would have been fired on the spot. Star players and coaches have to find a way to co-exist, at least in public. Otherwise, one or the other, or both have to go. Make no mistake, Marbury is the best player on the Knicks. Devaluing his trade value is not an intelligent thing to do.


----------



## jbulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> wow. stephon just gave a press conference and said "this year was the best year of my career".
> 
> then when asked about larry brown he said:
> 
> no comment.
> 
> 
> LOL.


Really? I thought he wasn't himself this year, and that next year he was going back to being "Starbury". Marbury seems like a genuinely nice guy off the court, the press conference he held after Katrina was genuinely affecting, but his opinion of himself is incredibly inflated. He's not an elite PG at this point, and his teams stink year in and year out.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Why would u guys want them to have a BETTER? coach?

don't give any KNICK fans or scouts any IDEAS

we need them to be as BAAAAAD as they are now..so we can hopefully land a Top 5 pick next year.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



The ROY said:


> Why would u guys want them to have a BETTER? coach?
> 
> don't give any KNICK fans or scouts any IDEAS
> 
> we need them to be as BAAAAAD as they are now..so we can hopefully land a Top 5 pick next year.


Oh come on. 
:clown: 
If the Knicks are coming to the internet boards for ideas about what to do next they are in much worse trouble than I thought.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Apparently LB is coming back for a while. That means Starberry has to go...

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/410738p-347491c.html 



> If the Wolves decides to keep Kevin Garnett, they will attempt to add veteran players like Marbury in order to placate their franchise player. Last month, both Garnett and Marbury said they are amicable to a reunion; Marbury wants Garnett to join him in New York, while Garnett wants his one-time teammate to return to the Twin Cities.
> 
> According to several team sources, Isiah Thomas is committed to trading Marbury, whose skills have diminished while his reputation as a malcontent has grown appreciably.
> 
> However, Marbury's trade value never has been lower; he is showing signs of breaking down and he is a point guard who makes his teammate bitter, not better. Another possibility is Allen Iverson, a player Thomas long had admired. The Sixers likely will shop him this summer.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



McBulls said:


> Oh come on.
> :clown:
> If the Knicks are coming to the internet boards for ideas about what to do next they are in much worse trouble than I thought.


You have to think about how many of OUR trade ideas wind up in Chicago papers or on ESPN chat's and insiders...It happens, I definintely wouldn't put it pass Knick employees LOL


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

_The Knicks will again bid for Kenyon Martin now that he assuredly will be traded by the Nuggets this summer, but Larry Brown has also asked Isiah Thomas to target another potential injury risk: Miami's free-agent center Alonzo Mourning.

Brown is desperate for Thomas to obtain an inside banger, a rugged rebounder and shot-blocker. Brown does not appear to believe that Eddy Curry or Channing Frye will become stout defenders. 
--
Mourning made just $1.7 million this season and the Knicks could easily outbid the thrifty Heat by using all or part of their $5 million mid-level exception. Owner James Dolan's generosity gives the Knicks the advantage of extending long-term deals to risky players.

The Nuggets will likely look to dump Martin for an expiring contract; the Knicks have two of those, in Maurice Taylor and Jalen Rose._

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/65217.htm


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

_Larry Brown is not the Knicks coach being linked to the North Carolina State job, but just the mere fact that Phil Ford's name has surfaced in connection with the Wolfpack's vacant head coaching position does raise more questions about Brown's future in New York.

Although Brown insists that he will return next season and the Knicks are saying - at least publicly - that they want the 65-year-old coach to come back, the reports of Ford, one of Brown's assistant coaches, possibly seeking employment elsewhere could be taken several ways.

Maybe Ford believes there is a possibility that Brown won't return, or perhaps Brown gave Ford strong indications that he won't be back. Ford, Dave Hanners and Brendan O'Connor are the three assistants Brown brought with him from Detroit. Brown would want all three to be in position for a job - either with the Knicks or another team - before he parted ways with the club. _

http://www.knicksonline.com/teaser/5059/brown-assistant-hunts-college-job.html


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

That will fuel the conspiracy theories for a while.


----------



## truebluefan

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I dont see Mourning leaving Miami for NY. He plays part time with the Heat. It's perfect for him. Even though, Mourning would bring a presence to the Knicks that they really, really need. He would not be a miracle worker there. They have too many question marks. 

I can see IT going after Martin.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

the meltdown may be nearing completion. all systems go.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/417612p-352779c.html




> *Garden chairman James Dolan apparently has started the process of ending Larry Brown's dream job after one season.*
> 
> According to sources, Dolan, upset over Brown's record and the coach's public criticism of his players, is considering buying out the final four years of Brown's contract, worth at least $40 million.
> 
> *The Knicks declined to comment, and would neither confirm nor deny one published report that already is naming Knicks president Isiah Thomas as Brown's successor. Brown has indicated that he will not resign, but if Thomas takes over, the Knicks would avoid having to pay another coach upwards of $5 million annually.*
> 
> Thomas, who coached the Pacers from 2000-2003 but never got them out of the first round of the playoffs, is said to be amenable to coaching the Knicks, one source told the Daily News.
> 
> Knicks brass has not met with Brown since the end of the 23-59 season, according to sources, perhaps another indication of Dolan's dissatisfaction with the Hall of Fame coach. *According to a team official, Brown has requested a meeting with Dolan but Thomas has told Brown there is no reason for him to meet with the club's owner.*
> 
> *Last month, The News reported that a majority of the players blamed the Knicks' worst season in 20 years on Brown, whose hiring last July was looked upon as a way to return the struggling franchise to prominence.*


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Brown is going to milk Dolan till retirement, 5 years, what was he thinking!

Even if he accepts a buyout for half of the remaining contract, that's $30M for one season. Crikey!


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Nothing surprising about the fact that they are letting Brown go. But it's bad news for the Bulls pick next year. IT will definitely get more out of the current team than LB did.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



McBulls said:


> Nothing surprising about the fact that they are letting Brown go. But it's bad news for the Bulls pick next year. IT will definitely get more out of the current team than LB did.


That is not necessarily a sure bet. More like the lunatics are running the asylum.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



McBulls said:


> Nothing surprising about the fact that they are letting Brown go. But it's bad news for the Bulls pick next year. IT will definitely get more out of the current team than LB did.


In the short term, I fear you may be right - and from a Bulls' fan's perspective that is all that matters due to the pick swap. 

But in the long term, he won't even get that team to the playoffs. Isiah as coach will be the same as Isiah the GM - sacrifice long term, meaningful improvement for short term, superficial gains. 

Skiles always used to say that he wasn't worried about wins and losses when he was trying to rebuild this team. He was worried with the way they played and that the wins and losses would eventually work themselves out. 

This is the mentality that whoever coaches the Knicks will need to take. Isiah isn't capable of that. His ego is far too large. Especially since he's got that pick-swap on his tab. He'll go short term and let the guys do what they want. Probably lead to an extra 5-7 wins over a regimented style. But will ultimately collapse for lack of discipline and fundamentals.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

so how is this for timing. larry brown apparently underwent bladder surgery on friday only to awake from the operation to find his face plastered on the back page of the NY tabloids with this story.

really classy of the knicks. wow.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> so how is this for timing. larry brown apparently underwent bladder surgery on friday only to awake from the operation to find his face plastered on the back page of the NY tabloids with this story.
> 
> really classy of the knicks. wow.


Nice golden parachute though. $35 M to rehab, spend some time with the family on a Greek island contemplating the next phase of life... I can relate to that.

LB's epitaph is nice enough as is. Time to enjoy the rest of life as best he can, while he can. 

But something tells me he won't be taking my advice.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> In the short term, I fear you may be right - and from a Bulls' fan's perspective that is all that matters due to the pick swap.
> 
> But in the long term, he won't even get that team to the playoffs. Isiah as coach will be the same as Isiah the GM - sacrifice long term, meaningful improvement for short term, superficial gains.
> 
> Skiles always used to say that he wasn't worried about wins and losses when he was trying to rebuild this team. He was worried with the way they played and that the wins and losses would eventually work themselves out.
> 
> This is the mentality that whoever coaches the Knicks will need to take. Isiah isn't capable of that. His ego is far too large. Especially since he's got that pick-swap on his tab. He'll go short term and let the guys do what they want. Probably lead to an extra 5-7 wins over a regimented style. But will ultimately collapse for lack of discipline and fundamentals.



I agree that coach IT is absolutely the worst thing that could happen to the Knicks and their long term health as a franchise. He certainly will sacrifice the development of his young guys in favor of minutes for his vet guys. That will hurt long term.

Starbury freelancing, uncontrolled, nobody pushing and motivating Eddy. I think LB was a major factor in JCraw's maturation, and with the wrong influences, he could regress. While Zeke and the Bad Boys were great on defense, I don't think IT will have the control necessary to force the Manhattan Globetrotters to pay the necessary attention to focus on defense -- which, of course, will be just fine with Jalen. Without a taskmaster, the egos and agendas that were _barely_ controlled last year will come right back to the surface -- especially when talking about the self-appointed Best Point Guard in the League. 

Because of this, I don't think that the short term results will fare much better than the long term. I think the lack of discipline and fundamantals will degrade into a case of And1 Mixtape junk and more soap opera nonsense that will have the Knicks ultimately floundering this season, as well as into the future.

Oh, and here is another thing I see happening. Ever have a "nice" teacher who loses control of the class by being too lax and getting taken advantage of? And then the teacher tries to get control back by becoming "mean" teacher?

Didn't work, did it?

I can see Thomas letting the lunatics run the asylum until it becomes clear that approach isn't working, at which time he'll try to knuckle down and regain some sense of order. At that point, he'll get tuned out even faster than LB did.

Result: Another high lotto pick for the Bullies.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

What the Knicks need is new ownership.


----------



## dkg1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

LB was really the only proven commodity in the Knick organization so, they get rid of him? Interesting. Given his track record, I was worried about him turning things around next season (given some addition by subtraction). What's a guy like Jamal supposed to think? He bought into LB's teachings and seemed to make some progress and then he sees a selfish guy like Marbury able to outlast the coach who wants them to play hard on defense and unselfish on offense? What a mess Zeke has created out there. Is Bill Dolan the dumbest multi-millionaire there is?


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

It's gonna get ugly.

<I>Larry Brown will not accept a buyout to step down as coach of the New York Knicks, and the team will have to fire him to end his run, his agent said.
--
"There's been no discussion of a buyout and there won't be a discussion of a buyout," Glass told the New York Post for Wednesday's editions. "We're not going to accept a settlement. He's coaching the Knicks or they're firing him -- one way or another. There's not going to be a $25 million buyout."</i>

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=ap-knicks-brown&prov=ap&type=lgns


----------



## The ROY

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

NY will win 25 games tops next year

thus putting us in position to attain one of the GOOD bigs in my SIG

!!!


----------



## LegoHat

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

John Jackson in the Sun-Times: Brown saga latest black eye for Knicks  



> The New York Knicks were an inept laughingstock during the regular season, and nothing has changed so far during the offseason.
> 
> Their handling of coach Larry Brown's future has been an absolute joke and just magnifies the fact -- as though we needed more evidence -- that Knicks management is clueless.
> 
> *Word out of New York is that ownership has decided to oust Brown one year into his five-year, $50 million contract but is trying to decide the proper time and method to pull the trigger.
> 
> The first order of business appears to be finding a way to pay Brown less than the $40 million that remains on his contract. There were several reports last week that the Knicks were trying to negotiate a $25 million buyout.
> 
> ''There's been no discussion of a buyout, and there won't be a discussion of a buyout,'' Joe Glass, Brown's longtime agent, told the New York Post a few days ago. ''We're not going to accept a settlement. He's coaching the Knicks, or they're firing him. ... There's not going to be a $25 million buyout.''
> 
> Brown, who had bladder surgery a little more than a week ago, apparently has decided to play hardball and won't go quietly.*
> 
> If the Knicks want him out, it's going to cost them the full amount. The Knicks spend as though they're using Monopoly money, but paying someone $40 million not to coach is tough to justify.


The article also has a funny tidbit about Barkley and the Heat:



> REVENGE OF THE SLUGS: The thing I usually hate about former players serving as analysts is they are loathe to criticize current players. You can't say that about Charles Barkley. The TNT analyst got under the skin of several Miami Heat players when he said a little more than a week ago that Shaquille O'Neal needed some help from the ''other slugs'' on the team. Perhaps Barkley inspired the Heat's supporting players to elevate their level of play.
> 
> *''I felt like Charles said some bad words about the guys on the team,'' Heat forward Antoine Walker said. ''I don't think you should call none of us what he called us, so I wanted to come out and make sure the other scabs, you know, that we do the right thing. I went and looked it up, and scab has nothing to do with a basketball player, so I had to make sure that we responded.''*
> 
> Actually, that was slug, as in sluggard, which is defined as ''an idle, slothful person.''
> 
> ''I don't like being called a slug,'' Heat forward Udonis Haslem said. ''I don't think anybody likes being called a slug. I respect Charles Barkley a lot, but I didn't like the comment.''


Man, those two years of intense studying at Kentucky really pays off for Antoine in situations like this... :rofl:


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

>>According to several coaches and GMs asked about Thomas' coaching abilities, his best chance to get the Knicks back to mediocrity is to run a variation of Phoenix's system, even if that means a diminished role for Eddy Curry, one of Thomas' signature acquisitions.
---
If he does go the Suns' route, the Knicks most certainly won't perform nearly as well as Mike D'Antoni's genuine version has, although the players aren't as likely to rebel against the coach, as happened last season.

"The challenge for Isiah is that he's got a lot of the similar players, guys like (Stephon) Marbury, (Steve) Francis and (Jamal) Crawford," says one Eastern Conference coach. "He can't play a slowdown halfcourt game, because it doesn't favor any of their strengths. It's got to be an up-tempo, shoot 'em out type of style. If he plays that style, he'll get the fans excited because they'll at least be entertaining. They'll score and he can show some progress. He can have the Garden rocking again.

"And that will be easier to sell to his players. Guys will be gung-ho to play in it, because they'll get up and down the court, everybody will get touches and it will give them an opportunity to create. For that team, that's a whole lot better than trying to use the approach that Larry did."
<<

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/419615p-354324c.html


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I wish I could get a job that only requires to state the obvious.


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I don't think it's that obvious.

Thomas was coach of Indy... If they play Indy's style of offense, it could be highly successful, as well.

That's a half-court offensive scheme that features a lot of isolation plays. Particularly to exploit a matchup that favors the offense.

It wouldn't hurt to run as much as possible.

So... which of Marbury, Francis, or Crawford plays Nash's role in a Suns' style offense? Any can, but there's not enough minutes for all of them at the position.


----------



## LegoHat

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Bill Simmons: Welcome back, mailbag 



> *Q:* I am having mixed feelings about the possibility of Isiah coaching the Knicks next year. While it will be glorious just to watch him awkwardly pacing the sidelines, next year will have to be his last year, right? When a team produced and coached by Isiah Thomas finishes 30-52, even Dolan will have to admit that Isiah does not know how to run an NBA franchise, right? This means that every non-Knicks fan will have to live without the hope that Isiah will buy out their damaged-goods swingman. It will be a sad day. I was wondering if you had any similar thoughts or were just happy to see Isiah go out with a bang?
> --Eric Morganson, Mountain View, Calif.
> 
> 
> *SG:* Come on, I'm delighted! The only thing funnier than Isiah building this roster would be him trying to coach it. Factoring in the city, the franchise, the fan base, the amount of money spent, the staggering number of bad decisions, the lack of overall plan, the Larry Brown part, the squandering of cap space for LeBron's free agency in 2008, and the lack of hope until 2009/2010 at the earliest, I truly believe that Isiah's Knicks stint is going to go down as the biggest management disaster in modern sports history when everything is said and done. We will be talking about what happened for decades and decades. Books will be written. Movies will be made. Every future disastrous executive will be compared to him. He's the "Heaven's Gate" or "Cop Rock" of sports executives.
> 
> *To really push things over the top, he needs to coach next year's team and completely butcher the season, followed by the Bulls ending up with their No. 1 pick in 2007 and taking Greg Oden*, then LeBron signing with the Brooklyn Nets. And even then, after all of that, Isiah wouldn't have done as much damage to the Knicks as he did to the CBA. Well, unless the franchise ends up disbanding. Which is possible.


Let the Sports Guy's will be done!


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The Onion's take on all of this:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/48676:



> NEW YORK—According to several sources in the coaching and management levels of the New York Knicks basketball team, Knicks President Isiah Thomas has "no coherent plan or strategy of any kind" to remove the Knicks from the long series of defeats they have suffered since Thomas began his tenure in late 2003.
> 
> People are reluctant to use the word 'quagmire' around here, but let's face it: The Knicks are suffering defeat after defeat at the hands of intractable opponents who keep coming back with renewed resolve," said Larry Brown, who is recovering from injuries received as a direct result of struggling to coach the Knicks. "Perhaps the worst part is the diminishing support we're getting at home. And yet, the president is staying the course… I don't know how long he thinks this can go on."
> 
> Brown, who contends that Thomas did not give him "the tools and support to complete the mission," is expecting to be fired as Knicks head coach before the week is out.
> 
> When Thomas assumed the presidency of one of the most storied franchises in sports, he did so with flair, trading for and signing some of the top stars in the business. However, coming off a 23-59 season in which he was repeatedly criticized by many of his own top people, it is becoming apparent that the president has no intention of changing the way he conducts operations.
> 
> "We are engaged in a battle with people who hate our team and our way of playing basketball," Thomas said in an interview Tuesday. "We cannot afford to second-guess ourselves. You are either with the New York Knicks or you are against them."
> 
> While Thomas' hard-nosed style still enjoys its share of supporters among the old guard, polls of Knicks fans show his approval rating has dipped below 30 percent, the lowest ever recorded for a sitting NBA president.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> The Post has learned the Brown/Thomas relationship fractured two days after the April 19 season finale, following a meeting gone bad. During the one-on-one showdown, Brown told Thomas he felt a certain amount of players needed to be traded for him to feel comfortable next season.
> 
> Thomas, feeling Brown's demands were over the top, told the coach he should worry about getting more out of the current players and to concentrate on getting more than 23 wins next season.
> 
> Feeling the meeting didn't go well, Brown went over Thomas' head and secretly looked to set up a one-on-one with Dolan to express his views on roster changes. The Knicks owner refused and still hasn't set up a meeting. The episode caused Thomas and Brown to cease communications and has led the franchise to this embarrassing juncture.
> 
> Dolan seems to be letting Brown twist in the wind, allowing reports to flourish without denials that the owner is hoping to buy out Brown for $25 million of his $40 million pact.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/64156.htm


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Thomas, feeling Brown's demands were over the top, told the coach he should worry about getting more out of the current players and to concentrate on getting more than 23 wins next season.


Thomas at his finest. Oh how good it is to be a Bulls fan.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/64156.htm


LOL, Larry spends an entire season ripping everyone on his roster, and now he wants Isiah to trade them because he feels 'uncomfortable.' 

This thing was a train wreck a while ago, I'm not even sure what you'd call it now.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



rosenthall said:


> LOL, Larry spends an entire season ripping everyone on his roster, and now he wants Isiah to trade them because he feels 'uncomfortable.'
> 
> This thing was a train wreck a while ago, I'm not even sure what you'd call it now.



it's called a cluster****, rosenthall, a cluster****. 


:laugh:


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> NBA commissioner David Stern, on hand at last night's Draft Lottery, said it was "a fabrication" he advised Dolan on the issue but admitted the Knicks are "in turmoil."
> 
> "I'd rather a franchise not be in turmoil, but over 22 years as commissioner, with 30 franchises, the franchise is what the franchise is," Stern said. "There's going to be ups, going to be downs. There are 29 teams not feeling sympathetic about what's going on in any one franchise. In fact, some like it."


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/66477.htm

[


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Larry Brown has requested a meeting with Garden chairman James Dolan to discuss promises made to him last summer about rebuilding the roster, promises that according to sources close to Brown, the coach feels the organization has reneged on.
> 
> The same sources revealed that Brown's goal isn't to undermine Knicks president Isiah Thomas or go over his boss' head. In fact, Brown wants Thomas present during the yet-to-be scheduled meeting with Dolan.
> --
> According to a source, Brown is confused over the sudden change in philosophy. When Dolan and Thomas were wining and dining Brown last summer, the Knicks' top basketball officials sat in the living room of Brown's posh East Hampton home and told him that they would find players Brown wanted to coach.
> 
> Dolan reiterated that promise months later when he accompanied the Knicks on a road trip to San Antonio and Memphis.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/420331p-354868c.html


----------



## The ROY

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

they probably think brown is a headcase and would rather get rid of him

remember, this is the guy that decided not to play the most effective players (bron and wade) in the olypmics because of his own ego.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> The way Dolan is handling this is more despicable than the team's 23-59 record. If Dolan is extending the Brown Watch in an attempt to provoke the 65-year-old coach into doing something rash, nobody in the league should ever forgive him. Allowing Don Chaney to show up to the Garden for a game after they had decided to fire him isn't close to these 11 days of Dolan-inspired disgrace.
> 
> Another *****ly issue has already arisen that has made Brown feel more uncomfortable. The Post has learned Brown invited an unidentified college coach to Tuesday's pre-draft workout, but *the coach was disinvited by someone in the Knicks front office*.
> 
> Brown is said to be looking into what happened and feels "badly" for the coach. The paranoid Knicks brass probably didn't want any outsiders at the workouts.
> 
> "His philosophy is, and always has been, coaches are always welcome," the Brown confidant said.


nypost.com


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> it's called a cluster****, rosenthall, a cluster****.


Understatement and a half.

What I don't get is why Dolan isn't doing anything. Even the village idiot knows something needs to be done, yet he just seems content to sit in the corner quietly twiddling his thumbs. I'm starting to wonder how in the earth did he amount such wealth.

Lets keep the roster that tuned out Brown intact and keep Brown, success is imminent.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

To be honest, I don't know that I've ever heard of anything being _this_ bad. It's kind of gone beyond farcical and has been boiled down to some demented psychological tug of war S&M.

Hah,

I can actually picture a scenario on draftnight transpiring where the Knicks are on the clock and they're 5 minutes late turning in their envelope, and when everyone is thinking 'what the **** is going on' and about ready to give up, Isiah and Larry burst out of the Knicks draftroom in a sprint, both with envelopes in their hand, and then they trip over each other and get in a fistfight to stop the other from turning in his choice.

Go Knicks!! :banana:


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Neither James Dolan, nor his frightened minions at Madison Square Gulag can stop reporters from chronicling his unique brand of bungling that's destroying the New York Knickerbockers, but the Cablevision boss can attempt to control the scribes' movements by holding the threat of jail time over their heads.
> 
> On Tuesday "the Knicks," which is just a euphemism for Dolan (no suit in that organization would dare make a decision without first getting his approval), called on the Greenburgh police department to remove a small group of reporters - and a photographer - who were standing near an employee parking lot at the team's training facility waiting for Larry Brown.
> 
> The police responding to "the Knicks' " request actually threatened to make arrests for trespassing. This was a waste of taxpayer money. It was nothing more than a billionaire bully using the police to harass - and intimidate - a group of reporters trying to do their jobs.
> 
> Calling on the police to tell five people, albeit desperadoes heavily armed with notebooks and pens, which to Dolan are weapons of mass destruction, is just another warped decision authored by the Dolan regime.
> --
> ...if Stern isn't working behind the scenes to help straighten out Dolan, he is not doing his job. While things are pretty good now for the NBA, with postseason TV ratings up and the competitive nature of the playoffs broadening the fan base, this Knicks disgrace is a blight on the league.
> 
> In the NBA's biggest market, Stern has a small-time team.
> 
> Stern can blast away at the media all he wants, he can challenge the veracity of stories seven days a week, 24 hours a day, but what does it say about his operation when the Knicks, run by a vindictive owner like Dolan, can call the cops on a group of reporters?
> 
> Remember, this is the same Dolan who had his own security force escort Don Chaney out of the Garden after he fired the coach. The same Dolan who fired Marv Albert for rejecting his edict not to criticize the Knicks.
> 
> The NBA is not immune to all these these stories concerning the paranoia and pettiness coming out of Dolan's Garden. Whenever he's asked about Dolan, Stern can recite the same lines. He can create a convenient smoke screen for the Knicks owner by ripping local newspapers whenever he wants.
> 
> Still, it would be hard to believe Stern can sit by silently while "the Knicks" embarrass the NBA by using the police to threaten reporters for the heinous crime of standing in a parking lot.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/421088p-355485c.html


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> While Knicks captain Stephon Marbury declined to discuss the ongoing Larry Brown saga, the star point guard from Coney Island was very clear about his own future, saying he wants to "die a Knick."
> 
> "I want to be a Knick, I want to die a Knick," Marbury told The Post in an exclusive Memorial-Day interview.
> 
> "If I ever was to be cremated, I'd want my ashes sprinkled on top of the Garden."
> --
> Marbury, who engaged Brown in a back-and-forth war of words that defined the awful season, was more comfortable discussing the future of his teammates than his coach.
> 
> He believes the current roster is playoff material, tons better than 23-59.
> 
> "I hope that every player on this team comes back next season," Marbury said.
> 
> "I honestly mean that. Every player. I think we have a great team. I think it will be so much different next year."


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/64468.htm


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

'DEADMAN WALKING' 



> May 31, 2006 -- Knicks lame-duck coach Larry Brown pulled his car to the side of a Westchester road, hopped out of his black Audi and sounded like a confused soul begging to be put out of his misery.
> 
> "I feel like a dead man walking," Brown said yesterday. "As many questions as you have, I have. And I have no answers."
> 
> *Brown's car was stopped at a traffic light and surrounded by six Knicks beat writers and a Post photographer one block from their Greenburgh practice facility before he pulled his vehicle over. Knicks brass has refused to make Brown available to the media in a formal setting.*
> 
> Brown conducted another around of pre-draft workouts and got another round of silence from Isiah Thomas on his future as the circus continued.
> 
> Brown sounded as if he's resigned to his eventual axing. "You hear anybody deny the story," Brown asked. "I haven't met with anybody. I work the kids out. I really don't have any explanation of what's going on. I do my job. I love this part of it. I'll come back (today) and do it again."
> 
> On Day 17 of the Brown Watch, Garden spokesman Barry Watkins said the club still had no comment on widespread reports owner James Dolan plans to seek a Brown divorce and replace him with Thomas.
> 
> According to a member of the Brown fraternity, the last 17 days have been "humiliating" to the Hall-of-Fame coach who led the Pistons to the last two Finals, including a championship. Brown just wants to know one way or another.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

i'm feeling a little sorry for larry at this point. he pulled the car over and had a press conference at a traffic light?



the knicks are just pathetic. what a circus.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> the knicks are just pathetic. what a circus.



The organization, yes. I agree.




> Brown is scheduled to earn $40 million over the next four years. His agent, Joe Glass, said that Brown has no interest in negotiating a buyout. But it sounds as if Brown is growing increasingly frustrated with the way the Knicks have treated him over the past two weeks.
> --


Thats why they're not saying anything.


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Lets make it a living hell so that Brown will warm to the idea of a buyout.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

while its a sympathetic piece , it illustrates why larry brown is in such hot water.

if your team doesn't want you speaking to the media to the point they kick the media out and away from you, is it really so smart to do an interview a block from the training complex.

i dont know if skiles wouldn't be in hot water with paxson if the situation was similar, no matter what skiles actually said beyond "no comment".

i dont think Larry brown is being very smart about this at all, its an obvious attempt to draw sympathy after marbury did the same thing a day earlier.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Email Archives
> Print Reprint
> Feeds Newsletters
> 
> June 1, 2006 -- For the second straight day, Larry Brown conducted a clandestine roadside interview with Knicks beat writers 200 yards from the team's practice facility. Brown maintained yesterday that president Isiah Thomas has left him in the dark on his future.
> 
> Asked if Thomas approached the coach about his remarks from Tuesday, in which Brown called himself "a dead man walking," Brown answered, "He didn't say anything."
> 
> "I'm assuming I'm the coach," Brown added. "That's what I'm going to do. Coach the Knicks."
> 
> Asked if he deserved more respect, Brown said, "I'm not commenting. I'm the coach. I'm doing the workouts."
> 
> Brown did not leave his vehicle this time. He stopped his car by the side of the road, rolled down the window and spoke for about two minutes before pulling out when TV cameras arrived. In an odd twist, a Knicks photographer was on hand, documenting the stakeout.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/69467.htm



> Dolan will be making his first public appearance in several weeks when his band, JD and the Straight Shot, plays a concert tonight at Coda, a midtown club. The Knicks have said that Dolan will not be answering questions about Brown or the Knicks during the show.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/422564p-356688c.html


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Brown did not leave his vehicle this time. He stopped his car by the side of the road, rolled down the window and spoke for about two minutes before pulling out when TV cameras arrived. In an odd twist, a Knicks photographer was on hand, documenting the stakeout.





> Dolan will be making his first public appearance in several weeks when his band, JD and the Straight Shot, plays a concert tonight at Coda, a midtown club. The Knicks have said that Dolan will not be answering questions about Brown or the Knicks during the show.


:sour: blech.

Media at its worst.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> It's being banished to Limbo that's buggin' out Brown more than anything. Because not a single superior has told him not to believe what he's read in the papers regarding his inescapable eviction, he knows his days are numbered.
> 
> It's also making Brown crazier than usual that he isn't being loved unconditionally by his bosses. He never has handled the most minor rejection from players and the media all that well, and this conspiratorial cold shoulder by the organization's hierarchy far out-distances any of that.
> --
> There's certainly no rush to see Brown stop squirming. Thomas has been waiting all year to get even. It's not as if the Knicks have to worry about hiring someone before another team does. Brown's replacement is the team president. Thomas is banking on Brown blinking before the other available jobs get taken and leave him with nothing.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/66923.htm



> While Larry Brown spent the day at the doctor with an uncertain future and uncertain health, Knicks owner James Dolan spent the night jamming with his blues band before about 300 people, including dozens of Cablevision employees, at a Midtown club.
> 
> Dolan, wearing a gray fedora and playing a white Stratocaster guitar, and his band JD and Straight Shot took the stage at Coda at 10 p.m., playing until midnight. Ironically opened with a song, "I Got News for You."
> 
> Except there was no news forthcoming on Brown's fate yesterday.
> 
> If Brown wanted to hear Dolan's band, he would have had to pay the $15 cover along with everyone else, a source said.
> 
> The Knicks sent three public-relations staffers to the event to ensure Dolan did not speak to a small group of Knicks beat writers.
> 
> Dolan pitched his new CD, "Nothing to Hide," and sang vocals on another ironic medley, "Didn't Want to Do it."
> 
> Just another wacky day in the Knicks' bizarre universe.












http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/66913.htm


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> In a pouring rain, Brown gave another brief roadside interview, then tried pulling his dark gray Audi back onto a busy Westchester road. Brown slammed on the brakes as Thomas' silver Road Ranger came flying by. Thomas swerved left on the wet pavement out of the way. The vehicles missed each other by a wide margin but the symbolism was precious.
> 
> Before the close call, Thomas had driven past the Knick beat writers and a Post photographer as they attempted to flag him down moments after Brown spoke.
> 
> Thomas waved and flashed his brights to acknowledge the rain-soaked media throng. Thomas has not spoken since The Brown Watch began three weeks ago in which owner James Dolan is plotting Brown's ouster.
> 
> Brown continued to show guts in addressing reporters for the third time in four days, pulling off on the side of the road about 200 yards from the Westchester practice facility after working out eight draft-eligible players. The organization has refused to make Brown available to the media.
> 
> Brown spoke for less than two minutes, revealing Knicks brass has instructed him to come to Orlando Tuesday for the start of the four-day pre-draft camp. It's only appropriate the Mickey Mouse organization will force Brown to head to Fantasyland during these surreal three weeks.
> 
> Brown has told confidants he feels awkward attending the event because of his lame-duck status, not knowing what to say to GMs, coaches, scouts and media on hand.
> 
> Brown's agent Joe Glass told The Post Thursday that Brown was waffling about going. Brown must go if ordered to ensure he does not break his contract.


nypost.com


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Brown continued to show guts in addressing reporters for the third time in four days


Guts... his actions are the opposite.

It's so obvious he wants out, otherwise he wouldn't be trying to provoke them everyday. I'm just suprised with all the wealth that Dolan has, he still hasn't found a way to shut Brown up.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Now we're getting to the meat of the situation:



> The most interesting story to come out of the Garden this week, one that comes from a neutral person - it means he isn't tied to the Brown side of things or the Thomas side of things - is this: Dolan is now annoyed with Isiah Thomas because Thomas has asked him for more time, before they lower the boom on Brown, to somehow make a Big Move.
> 
> Understand that Thomas has already informed Brown, the last time they talked about the Knicks and not college kids, that he isn't making any Big Moves, that if he comes back, he coaches players that he, Brown, obviously hates. But Thomas is smart enough to know that if he attempts to coach this roster, it is the same as firing himself. So when Brown goes, Thomas wants to have some kind of hero deal in place to make himself look good, no matter how much money it costs.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/423360p-357303c.html


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

The longer the Knicks wait to replace LB the less time the next coach has to put together next year's team -- unless, of course, the next coach is IT, who would provide the dramatic last act of the NY fiasco that opera fans are rooting for.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> The Pistons are paying the price for their own conceit a year ago when the Larry Brown soap opera slogged along to its inevitable ugly conclusion. Everyone knew that he wasn't coming back midway through the regular season despite Dumars' futile efforts to mediate some resolution.
> 
> But it wasn't enough for this organization to just let Brown sabotage his own standing with his terminal neuroses. They leaked incendiary stories about Brown, further greasing the skids while needlessly painting Brown as a selfish, incorrigible curmudgeon.
> 
> They didn't want him. They didn't need him, believing they could return to the championship stage with virtually anybody drawing up the X's and O's on the bench. *And now they realize, especially after watching Pat Riley's brilliance in molding the Heat's reshuffled supporting cast, that playoff coaching isn't as overrated as they might have suspected.*


http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060605/SPORTS03/606050330/1051


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Before pulling the trigger on our current diva-coach for a different diva-coach though, Camp Cablevision should consider this. They appeared to have hired Brown for the wrong reason in the first place. They hired Brown to get NY to the Eastern Conference playoffs and then see what happened; probably figuring that where Don Chaney got swept Brown might have actually won such a series or at least a couple games. They thought, and I believe still think, they are another scorer and a few defensive drills away from being a contender in the East. This remains the central delusion of the Thomas regime, confirmed by the leaks claiming that it’s “cheaper” to fire Brown than reconstruct the roster.


http://www.knickerblogger.net/?p=372


----------



## Gotham2krazy

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Are Bulls fans this deplorable? You guys make a thread that stretches beyond ninety pages just to write about the New York Kincks and how bad we'll do and this and that? That's low, weak, and down right pitiable.


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Are Bulls fans this deplorable? You guys make a thread that stretches beyond ninety pages just to write about the New York Kincks and how bad we'll do and this and that?


Well since the Brown and the Knicks saga dominates the media attention and given how much we have invested in your failure, how is this not expected?

It's like a terrible and cheesy soap opera, you know how pathetic it is but you're hooked and can't look away. Scratch that, with shows like the OC still around, the Larry Brown and the Knicks saga is quality!


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> http://www.knickerblogger.net/?p=372


Props GB, that was enjoyable.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Gotham2krazy said:


> Are Bulls fans this deplorable? You guys make a thread that stretches beyond ninety pages just to write about the New York Kincks and how bad we'll do and this and that? That's low, weak, and down right pitiable.



Deplorable, low, weak and down right pitiable. Yup, that about sums up the Knicks organization. 

C'Mon...this melodrama playing out in NY is second only to the most exciting playoffs since MJ was around. It's a story in and of itself, and given our investment (emotional and otherwise) in your team, I think it's a _wee_ bit understandable.


Thanks Step.


----------



## Wynn

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Gotham2krazy said:


> Are Bulls fans this deplorable? You guys make a thread that stretches beyond ninety pages just to write about the New York Kincks and how bad we'll do and this and that? That's low, weak, and down right pitiable.


hehehe........

Yes, we are this deplorable. Even more deplorable! Seems I can't find the "Crawford Update Thread", but that makes this little thing seem of little consequence!

Here's to one more really horrible year for the KnicK!

:cheers:


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Since Thomas is apparently slated to replace Brown, the Knicks have the option to keep Brown twisting right up until training camp begins in October.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/423921p-357725c.html



> Clearly, Dolan is dragging this out to make Brown squirm in hopes Brown comes off his $40 million price tag - the amount left on Brown's Knick contract.
> 
> Meanwhile, Brown's stock has increased since the Pistons were embarrassed by the Heat in the Eastern Conference Finals under Flip Saunders. Brown took the Pistons to two straight Finals, including one championship.
> 
> "I was devastated," Brown said in an e-mail message to The Post. "The guys on the team are the most quality individuals I've ever been around. The best. I definitely feel their pain."
> 
> Thomas will not acknowledge the mess with Brown, who is hurt the Knick president hasn't even asked him about his recent bladder surgery. The topic of conversation has been only on the workouts.
> --
> It's possible, with all the executives attending, a team will ask Thomas formal permission to speak to Brown. That would solve the stalemate, as Glass has said Brown is not accepting a buyout. One potential suitor could be Washington, whose owner, Abe Pollin, goes way back with Brown and Glass.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/64795.htm


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Gotham2krazy said:


> Are Bulls fans this deplorable? You guys make a thread that stretches beyond ninety pages just to write about the New York Kincks and how bad we'll do and this and that? That's low, weak, and down right pitiable.


Yes and no.

Yes, for the reasons step, GB, and Wynn mentioned.

No, because in our defense that thread was started WAY back in October as a way to discuss the team that Crawford, Curry, and Antonio Davis were on. And the Bulls forum at bbb.net is the largest community short of the general NBA forum, so there's tons of discussion here almost every day.

You should see the Crawford update thread...that thing is monstrous.


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Brown in Washington, that won't go down well with Arenas.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Huh?



> Intercepted as he walked toward the Milkhouse Arena inside the Disney Wide World of Sports, coach-in-waiting Thomas spoke for about 30 seconds to greet four Knicks beat writers and a Post photographer. And it was the most telling 30 seconds since the Brown Watch began more than three weeks ago.
> 
> There wasn't the slightest hint of a vote of confidence.
> 
> "It's the same as we said before," Thomas said. "We won't comment on any of the reports that are out there. We're just here to make sure we do our work draft-wise and try to have another successful draft."
> 
> Then, when asked directly if his April 20 edict that Brown will be back still holds true, Thomas smiled sheepishly, shrugged slightly, waved and said, "See you guys later."
> --
> After giving three roadside interviews last week near the Westchester practice facility, Brown appears to be under a gag order in Orlando. The organization wasn't pleased Brown spoke at all last week.
> 
> "I know you have a job, but I'm not allowed. I don't have anything to say," Brown said upon arriving.
> 
> When asked if he's ready to confront Isiah, the suntanned Brown said, "No. It's not my place."
> 
> Brown showed up one hour before last night's start of the four-day pre-draft camp, while Thomas arrived 15 minutes late.
> 
> After the workouts, Brown, before dodging into his rental car, said, "C'mon guys. It's not the time. I feel bad I can't talk to you. I apologize."
> --
> During the 90-minute drill session in which 60 draft candidates participated, Brown sat courtside with his former boss, Indiana president Donnie Walsh. Halfway through, Brown took a seat and chatted with Pacers coach Rick Carlisle. Meanwhile, Thomas was far away, up in the fourth-from-last row of the bleachers, sitting alongside Knicks scout Gerald Madkins.
> 
> Brown did not appear to come into contact with any of the 10 Knicks scouts on hand. Brown drove to the complex alone. After the session, Brown was swarmed by well-wishers, including longtime friend Doug Moe, a Nuggets assistant, who playfully hugged Brown and dragged him away with the reporters in tow.
> 
> After his conference with Brown, Walsh said, "I know nothing. I'm not talking about that (stuff)."
> 
> Brown knew it would be painfully awkward, but he was ordered to Orlando, along with assistant Herb Williams, by Knicks brass. Brown's assistants he brought in from Detroit - Phil Ford, Dave Hanners and Brendan O'Connor - were not invited. There are indications Brown could go home after today's games. Brown has said Thomas hasn't addressed the topic of his future. They've only talked about workouts. Now it's unclear if they're talking at all.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/67129.htm


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

i _love_ this thread









> *Knicks owner James Dolan has sent his lawyers after the new Web site selltheknicks.com for peddling derogatory T-shirts with his likeness, including one with Dolan pictured in a dunce cap, The Post has learned.*
> 
> According to sources, Cablevision attorney Ashima Dayal dispatched an e-mail to cafepress.com, which manufactures, distributes and handles the shirt sales for the fledging anti-Dolan Web site, whose birth was first reported in the Post's Rumble section 10 days ago.
> 
> The e-mail from Dolan's lawyer said, in part, the Dolan T-shirts, which sell for $19.99, "infringes upon their intellectual property rights." In accordance with the notice, the manufacturer has temporarily taken the T-shirts off the site.
> 
> The founders of selltheknicks.com are trying to convince the manufacturer that all the T-shirts need not be banned.
> 
> "I don't know how you claim something like that," said one of the Web site founders, who requested his last name not be used for this story. "His face is one thing. The name Dolan is incredibly generic. It's a common name."
> 
> *The same source said his Web site will continue on, and if they can't sell the old T-shirt, they are planning to make a new one inscribed "Dol-***."*




:clown: 


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/67130.htm


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Right to Publicity is still a developing area of law, but Dolan is probably entitled to protection of his image on t-shirts.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Dolan would like Thomas to take over, even though Thomas has expressed reluctance to become coach.
> 
> Dolan does not want to pay Brown $50 million for one season in which the team won 23 games. He was displeased that Brown criticized his players, potentially undermining their market value, and that Brown seemed to sour on the trades the Knicks made.


HIS players? Market value?

Larry is going to laugh all the way to the bank on this one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/07/sports/basketball/07knicks.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


What I think Dolan is doing:

He knows that Brown is not going to resign and leave $40 million on the table. He's probably going to let him work all summer: draft and summer league team...and then he's going to try to pick a legal pick over Browns conduct during the season hoping to get to the negotiating table and get some of that payout cut down.


----------



## step

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> Huh?


That for me?
If so:
Arenas went on the record that if Eddie Jordan doesn't return, he would want out.

Now would that change if he knew it was Brown replacing him, who knows, but it sure does make things interesting. I don't see it happening, it'll take Dolan too long to find dirt and Brown will end up staying.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> June 9, 2006 -- ORLANDO - Larry Brown's decision yesterday to bolt Orlando and the pre-draft camp early has irritated Knicks brass further, if that's possible.
> After yesterday's morning session, Brown, in the mid-afternoon, took a private plane believed to be destined for the Hamptons, leaving the Knicks and Isiah Thomas behind.
> 
> The pre-draft camp concludes this afternoon. Brown decided to miss two sessions, last night's and this morning's. Brown, who was "dreading" coming to Orlando, did not seek the Knicks' permission to bolt.
> 
> Thomas declined comment, but the Knicks expected Brown to stay to its conclusion. They are as displeased with his choice to leave, just like they were unhappy about his roadside interviews in Westchester.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/67252.htm

I wonder if they'll use this as a reason to fire him without having to pay over the $40 mill? Never understood that contract.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



narek said:


> http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/67252.htm
> 
> I wonder if they'll use this as a reason to fire him without having to pay over the $40 mill? Never understood that contract.


It seemed to be over the top at the time IT gave it out. The guy was gimpy with disease and put himself on the market publically during the NBA finals... Why would you ever hire such an egomanic and give him a record contract to boot? The outcome was entirely predictable from the start. The only thing you can say good about IT's tenure as GM in New York is that he has been very good at wasting Dolan's money.

But $40 mil is a lot of money, even for Dolan. I don't blame him for trying to get some of it back. If I were LB, I'd give the Knicks 10% back for letting me go to another team, or lay out on the beach in the Hamptons. He can get that back just by providing color commentary on TV for the next few years. Then there's the book contract ...

If Dolan & IT want more, they can contemplate watching LB giving Malik Rose 40 min per game next year while Marbury spends the year on the inactive list. They shouldn't underestimate LB's love for the media spotlight. And he will definitely have it as long as he's coaching the Knicks.

Sometimes you just get screwed financially. My wife just got taken for $30-50 K by a real estate agent and a condo association head who promised it would be OK to use a residential condo as an office. One month after closing and completing a $25K rennovation and move-in, the manager of the condo board threatens monthly fines unless she moves out. We complained to the real estate gods and sic'ed our lawyer on them, but in the end, these people got our money and ran; and we just got screwed. 
Caveat emptor -- particularly when dealing with used car salesmen, real estate agents and NBA coaches.

Dolan should fire IT, pay off LB's contract and move on. He'll sleep better at night -- a little poorer and a little wiser.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> According to sources, Knicks management wasn't notified by Brown that he intended to return to New York yesterday afternoon, one full day before the camp for draft prospects concludes.
> 
> "I've seem them all, I know them all," Brown said of the camp's participants before leaving the complex at Disney's Wide World of Sports. "I can tell you everything about them."
> 
> Brown's actions hardly seem criminal, but they may be grounds for the club to fine their Hall of Fame coach.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/425101p-358580c.html



> What's not true, I'm counseled, is my assertion Thomas is championing the charge to dump Brown overboard, buyout or not. While, there's no doubt Thomas is livid at Brown for undermining his ability to trade alleged assets by relentlessly accentuating their defects to the media, Next Town has alienated Dolan to a far greater degree. From what I'm able to piece together, Dolan has been in an unforgiving mood for months and months because Brown routinely refused to adhere to the owner's phone and behind-closed-door orders.
> 
> Only two weeks into the season, after a game at Golden State, Brown was told in no uncertain terms to mute his negativity toward Stephon Marbury, who declined to let the comments slide and called out his coach. Dolan and Thomas have chosen to keep their grievances in house, before and after the news of Brown's impending deportation got out.
> 
> Despite many more warnings from Dolan to zip it, Brown's withering words at the expense of Poisonbury, and many teammates continued unabated for the remainder of the season.
> --
> 
> By all accounts from the Nets, to the Pacers, to the 76ers, to the Pistons, normally Brown doesn't take on his bosses and his players until two or three years into a contract. The Knicks knew that going in and were prepared to deal with it accordingly when the time came. They definitely knew about the eccentric they were getting.
> 
> "But when Larry acted like he did right away, it caught Dolan and Thomas by complete surprise," underscores a former Brown supporter.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/67278.htm


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> In another slight to Larry Brown during the Orlando pre-draft camp, *Knick President Isiah Thomas held a secret workout* on Wednesday for four players, including Fairleigh Dickinson's 6-foot-9 forward Gordon Klaiber, *and did not invite his lame-duck head coach, according to two sources.*
> 
> Thomas, Knick Director of Player Personnel Brendan Suhr and European scout Kevin Wilson watched the workout at a remote Orlando gym 30 minutes from the pre-draft camp on the Disney grounds.
> 
> ***
> 
> When buyout talks eventually begin between Brown and owner James Dolan, rest assured the Knicks will try to hold it against Brown for leaving one day early without authorization.
> 
> NBA Commissioner David Stern has yet to step in to mediate, but that could be the path this is taking. Brown is not expected to be fined, but it's clear *the Knicks are trying to build a case that he's been insubordinate this season.*
> 
> *It's stunning the Knicks would even care, considering brass ignored him for three days.* When Thomas met twice with reporters, he couldn't even bring himself to say Brown's name or acknowledge he was the coach.




http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/larry_gets_1_more_snub_knicks_marc_berman.htm


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I've read just about every post in this thread and I've never felt sorry for Knicks fans. . . until #1463. 

This situation is epic. Dolan, Thomas, and Brown are ruining professional basketball in New York. In all of pro-sports, ever, I can't remember a situation so blatent, backhanded, and malicious. Even the Blackhawks took a decade to drive away their fan base. The Knicks are going to do it in two years.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> When buyout talks eventually begin between Brown and owner James Dolan, rest assured the Knicks will try to hold it against Brown for leaving one day early without authorization.


I'd agree to forfeit about $25.00 of my $40,000,000 contract for that.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> According to an individual who has spoken to Brown, the family won't back out of their agreement to buy a new home in Greenwich, Conn. They are slated to move in July 1, despite reports Brown will not coach the Knicks next season.
> 
> The Browns had lived in a rented house in Greenwich this past season. Brown has not been told by Thomas or owner James Dolan his job is in jeopardy.
> 
> The Brown Watch, now in its 31st day, has been hard on their kids. According to the individual, Brown's son, L.J. was caught off guard when his school yearbook was signed by a friend, "Sorry you won't be back next year."


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/knicks_invite__larry_to_drills_knicks_marc_berman.htm


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> I'd agree to forfeit about $25.00 of my $40,000,000 contract for that.


Wow, that's absolutely sickening how much money LB will get for ONE friggin year of coaching. Isiah and Dolan only have themselves to blame. Most of us knew it'd be fitting a square peg into a round hole. The fit was never there from day 1.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Because it's time for another update in the Soap Opera:

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/knicks_place_gag_on_brown_knicks_marc_berman.htm



> June 15, 2006 -- Lame-duck Knicks coach Larry Brown doesn't speak to Isiah Thomas any longer. And now he's banned from speaking to reporters covering the team, according to Brown's agent, Joe Glass.
> Brown conducted more pre-draft workouts yesterday at the Knicks' Westchester facility, then left in the passenger seat of a black Chevy Trailblazer with assistant coach Dave Hanners behind the wheel.
> 
> The vehicle slowed down when it approached a half-dozen media members waiting for him on the side of the road, two blocks from the facility. Brown rolled down the window and said, "Can't talk. Can't talk. Sorry. Hope your families are all right."
> 
> Hanners then hit the gas and they were off.
> 
> Two hours later, Brown made Glass call reporters to apologize. "He wants you to know he wasn't being impolite," Glass said. "There are instructions where nobody is allowed to talk to the media unless a public relations official is there."





> Sources said Thomas and Brown did not even exchange hellos yesterday. *Ukrainian 7-foot center Oleksiy Pecherov, on the Knicks' radar at No. 29 and who worked out yesterday, doesn't speak English, which fit right in with the club's communication woes. *
> 
> More workouts are planned today that include Pitt 7-footer Aaron Gray.


Dolan and Thomas and Brown are all giving new meaning to disfunctional.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Maybe Dolan, Thomas and Brown can appear together on Dr. Phil.


----------



## DaBullz

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Maybe Dolan, Thomas and Brown can appear together on Dr. Phil.


Jerry Springer would be way more fun.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



narek said:


> Because it's time for another update in the Soap Opera:
> 
> http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/knicks_place_gag_on_brown_knicks_marc_berman.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dolan and Thomas and Brown are all giving new meaning to disfunctional.



they put the *FUN* in dis*FUN*ctional!!


:laugh:


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

_*tally no!*_


:laugh:



> June 17, 2006 -- "Big Ben" will have to wait for Larry Brown. And we're not talking about Ben Wallace.
> 
> *In another crazy twist to the Knick soap opera, Brown revealed yesterday that he's had to cancel a family trip to London because the Knicks have scheduled workouts Monday through Thursday and have ordered that he be there.
> 
> Even though Brown will be relieved of his coaching duties shortly, owner James Dolan is making him earn his $40 million as their designated pre-draft workout specialist.*
> 
> Dolan also may want him around because he may finally be ready to meet with him next week. Signals are that Brown will be let go before the June 28 draft.
> 
> Dolan has dragged this out to make Brown as uncomfortable as possible so the lame-duck coach will accept a buyout.
> 
> After Brown left yesterday's pre-draft workouts in his black SUV, he was stopped at a traffic light a block from the facility and approached by two reporters and a Post photographer.
> 
> "We had a trip planned [to England], but we can't go," Brown said.














http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/tally_no__knicks_marc_berman.htm


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



mizenkay said:


> _*tally no!*_
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/tally_no__knicks_marc_berman.htm


Another day, another $40,000 earned in the salt mines of New York.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



McBulls said:


> Another day, another $40,000 earned in the salt mines of New York.


I hope Larry sticks it to them for every penny he has coming.


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Okay. How do you plan a family vacation to England one week before the draft? He's still the coach right?


----------



## dkg1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I hope Larry sticks it to them for every penny he has coming.


Why not? Lord knows Eddy, Jalen, Franchise, Jerome James and Marbury are sticking it to the franchise for every penny coming to them.


----------



## BG7

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

I think the Knicks should stick with Brown, and run him crazy. Basically keep Brown around for his entire contract, drive his winning percentage into the ground so he's seen as a fluke champion and not a hall of famer anymore. Then if he quits, he isn't doing his job so the contracts void. Dolan needs to stick this out. Besides, if Isiah becomes coach, we'll be hearing a bunch of misfits (mostly from Chicago) recreate their create in NBA Street: New York and band together to make the playoffs and screw the bulls out of Greg Oden!


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



such sweet thunder said:


> Okay. How do you plan a family vacation to England one week before the draft? He's still the coach right?


If Brown and Zeke were on the same page in terms of what they wanted in a player, he could take the vacation. It's the GM who makes the final decision on who to draft. But you'd think he'd have schedule the vacation for right after the draft.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



sloth said:


> I think the Knicks should stick with Brown, and run him crazy. Basically keep Brown around for his entire contract, drive his winning percentage into the ground so he's seen as a fluke champion and not a hall of famer anymore. Then if he quits, he isn't doing his job so the contracts void. Dolan needs to stick this out. Besides, if Isiah becomes coach, we'll be hearing a bunch of misfits (mostly from Chicago) recreate their create in NBA Street: New York and band together to make the playoffs and screw the bulls out of Greg Oden!


His winning % would certainly go down, but I serously doubt anyone anytime is going to seriously blame Larry Brown for that pathetic mess that is the Bickerknockers.

If that collection of mopes, morans and malcontents would pay attention to LB for any reasonable span of time, they could be and would be a playoff team.

Instead, they are bums.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> In yesterday's installment of the Knicks' summer soap opera, Marbury proclaimed that he loves Brown, the Knicks' in-limbo coach. Marbury talked to reporters in his native Coney Island, where he was hosting his annual youth basketball tournament.
> 
> Speaking like someone who has had a revelation, Marbury said the Knicks' horrendous 2005-06 season had made him a changed man. The person he credits for the changes is Brown - with whom he's had a tempestuous relationship.
> 
> "I love Larry Brown," Marbury said. "Period."
> 
> Marbury did not specifically say whether he believes the Knicks will retain Brown as coach, or whether they should. And he didn't directly address the Knicks' potential divorce with Brown.
> 
> But what Marbury did was preach about how he grew this past season, which he said was the best of his life. With adoring children surrounding him, Marbury initially told reporters that he wouldn't answer basketball-related questions. He spoke instead about helping children and about how his mind, once "trapped," is now "free."
> 
> But then, asked what had freed him, the point guard quickly responded, "Larry Brown!"


http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2006/06/18/sports-marburybrown-06-18.html


----------



## such sweet thunder

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2006/06/18/sports-marburybrown-06-18.html


 amazing.


----------



## jbulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

This never gets old.

Speaking of disfunctional franchises - does anybody else around here keep up with the John Canzano's Trail Blazers blog on the Oregonian website? It's hilarious, and covers my second favorite NBA soap opera...

http://www.oregonlive.com/canzano/


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Another chapter in the continuing saga of Zeke and Larry and Jim:

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/brown_has_no_say_for_knick_draft_knicks_marc_berman.htm



> Brown hasn't been on speaking terms with Thomas for three weeks. Brown is only being asked to run the workouts, not to give feedback on players. That's like asking Picasso to paint your garage, asking Heather Locklear to do a radio ad, like asking Einstein to teach second-grade math.





> It will be impossible for them to be together in the war room in Westchester for the draft without making a mockery of the whole process. And if Thomas doesn't seek Brown's advice, it could be in violation of Brown's contract in which he was promised personnel input.
> 
> Asked if Thomas has asked for his opinion or even talked to him recently, Brown said, "Nope."
> 
> Nobody has even mentioned to Brown about attending early July's Las Vegas summer league.


They'll end up arguing who violated the contract first by the time this is all done.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> sources close to the team are not ruling out that Brown's future may not be addressed until late August or September.
> 
> Dolan's plan is to replace Brown with Thomas, although there continue to be whispers that Thomas would prefer to keep his day job and hire another coach. Florida coach Billy Donovan, a former Knick, denied a report that he had met with Thomas to discuss the position.
> 
> "I've never heard from the Knicks, and I've never spoken to Isiah (about the job)," the coach of the national champion Gators told a Florida newspaper.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/428430p-361291c.html


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



GB said:


> http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/428430p-361291c.html
> sources close to the team are not ruling out that Brown's future may not be addressed until late August or September.


Nobody watching Eddies cookie jar until September? He'll report at 320 lbs, taking phen-fen IV.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Brown and Jordan together? Or when there's no news, reporters speculate with other people to come up with stories:

NBA EXEC SEES LARRY JOINING JORDAN 



> With the days ticking down on Brown's disastrous Knick tenure, one league executive who's a friend of Brown said he wouldn't be surprised if new Bobcats partial owner Michael Jordan has interest in the lame-duck Knicks coach.
> 
> Brown and Jordan both bleed North Carolina blue and are friends. Brown makes it a point to go every summer with his son L.J. to teach at Jordan's basketball camp in Santa Barbara, Calif.
> 
> Brown, meanwhile, has his two daughters from his first marriage living in Charlotte, as well as his 101-year-old mother, Anne. The team executive said he could foresee Jordan trying to hire UNC legend Dean Smith as a Bobcats consultant. Smith, who is Brown's mentor, could be a calming influence and ensure Brown and Jordan stayed on the same page to avoid the disaster that occurred between Brown and Isiah Thomas, who no longer are on speaking terms.
> 
> "If Larry is looking for a comfortable exit to his career, Charlotte would be it," the team executive said.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Finally! The Knicks fired Brown and made Isiah head coach.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2496106


----------



## SecretAgentGuy

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

Let the speculation begin. Where will Larry end up and how will the Knicks do with Zeke at the helm?


----------



## lougehrig

*OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

Greg Oden here we come!


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



sp00k said:


> Let the speculation begin. Where will Larry end up and how will the Knicks do with Zeke at the helm?


I'll be interested to see if anyone takes a chance on Brown. There's no doubt that Isiah presented him with a troubled, imbalanced roster, but Brown did an absolutely miserable job of coaching it. When you can't do as good a job as Lenny Wilkens or Don Chaney, you've got some soul-searching to do.

Bringing in Isiah was inevitable once things went south with Brown, and I don't think it'll do any real good for the Knicks in the long haul. But I do believe they'll be a lot better next year, which doesn't bode well for our pick swap.


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

should be...interesting.

All that talk of "brown is our coach for life and we stand behind Brown" when he was hired was utter bs. The sad thing for NY is Brown might have actually BEEN able to turn that team around if IT had supported him instead of siding with the players.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?t=213782&page=100&pp=15


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

Only hardcore Starbury/JCraw/Curry jockriders will buy into Dolan/Zeke's scapegoating of Larry Brown. The Knicks failings last season were not of his doing. Even if the team plays better next season, last season wasn't LB's fault.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

http://www.insidehoops.com/brown-fired-isiah-062206.shtml

Larry Brown has been relieved of his responsibilities as head coach of the New York Knicks it was announced today. Isiah Thomas, who serves as the team's president and general manager, will also assume the role of head coach, effective immediately.

"Larry has had a long and storied career. We hired him last summer with the expectation that he would be with the Knicks for a long time. Sometimes decisions work and sometimes they don't. After careful consideration, despite the best intentions from everyone involved, this current structure did not work for us last season and I did not think it was going to improve next season," MSG Chairman James L. Dolan said. "I have great personal admiration for Larry, but have concluded that it is best for our franchise if we make this change. We understand that fans were not happy with the performance of the team last season and neither were we. We are committed to making major improvements next season towards our goal of producing a winning basketball team."

"No one in our organization is happy with last season and we all accept responsibility for our performance," Thomas said. "This has been a difficult time for the entire organization and our fans. Today begins the 2006-07 season for the Knicks, and I strongly believe we are on the right track to take major steps in our rebuilding process to achieve our goal of being one of the premier teams in the NBA. Larry Brown is a great coach, but for various reasons, bringing him to the Knicks did not turn out the way we had hoped and we wish him the best in the future."

Thomas, who joined the Knicks as president and general manager on Dec. 22, 2003, previously served as a head coach with the Indiana Pacers for three seasons from 2000-01 through 2002-03. Coaching a youthful Pacers team, he compiled a record of 131-115 record, making the playoffs in each of his three seasons. 

InsideHoops.com Editor Says: Well, thanks to the local New York media, everyone knew this was going to happen, but no one really wanted to believe it. The quick crash-and-burn of Larry Brown's time with the Knicks is shocking. It was expected that Brown and Stephon Marbury might clash, and perhaps have problems, but no one thought the relationship between the coach and most of the players, plus upper management, would be such a disaster. Now Isiah gets to coach. The funny thing is, if he just runs a steady rotation, and runs basic plays, the Knicks will win more games this season than they did after Brown. Which is going to result in unrealistic people left and right making ridiculous assumptions that Isiah is somehow a better coach than Brown. The fact is, Brown for his career, almost everywhere he went, was better than almost anyone. But for whatever reason, he seemingly did as much as possible to trash the team last season. So, I predict Isiah will actually be "fine" as coach, and by "fine" I mean the team will win 5-10 more games than they did last season. But the truth is, the roster is still seriously flawed, and the team as it currently stands has no upside aside from maybe next season, or the season after, winning enough games to make the playoffs, but never getting past the first round. A championship is impossible, which is a real shame.


----------



## Wishbone

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

just saw the AP report myself, and thought I might have a chance to drop this one on the board...

a little late as usual.
in any event, Zeke as the GM/coach is not going to produce the same results as Pat Riley GM/coach.
which I am ever thankful for - not just for the draft pick, but becuase of my undying hatred for all things New York Knicks. and I just plain don't like Zeke. :biggrin: 

in all seriousness though -- this sounds like a boon for the Bulls. I'm pretty sure there's not any one coach that's going to f up the situation on that Knicks team any more than Isiah himself. Maybe Tim Floyd would do worse, but not substantially. 

I'm looking forward to hearing about all the bickering that will take place during the season, and the New York press is in all likelyhood going to be ever more brutal than it was last year. :clap: 

Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself here -- but there's a chance the 2006-2007 Knicks fail to reach the 20-win mark. Isiah will be all out of excuses as the trade deadline nears -- and I can't wait to see what desperation move he makes to turn his sorry franchise around


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

You couldn't script this any better if you were Pax. Zeke is the absolute worst choice to coach that team. The inmantes are running the asylum. It really wouldn't matter who was coaching the Knicks because unless they do some major roster restructuring; they're still the same ill-conceived group of players that they were last year. Only now they've got a guy "coaching" them who's as clueless as they are.

And I thought last season was interesting watching the Knicks flail about...


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Only hardcore Starbury/JCraw/Curry jockriders will buy into Dolan/Zeke's scapegoating of Larry Brown. The Knicks failings last season were not of his doing. Even if the team plays better next season, last season wasn't LB's fault.


Totally disagree, TB. Lawrence assumed no responsibility whatsoever for the reality that Isiah would not be able to reconstruct the roster in two months. No one denies that it is a poorly constructed roster for any coach, let alone one who preaches defense, but this was far and away the worst coaching job of Brown's career. He basically quit on the job.


----------



## rosenthall

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

With a grain of salt, I think this is a slightly negative transaction for us. I respect Larry Brown's track record of turning teams around, but the situation in NY really looked unfixable with the way players, management, and Brown were all alienated from each other.

With Isiah Thomas, I think the players will at least have a breath of fresh air, and Isiah's coaching style will probably meet less resistance with the team than Larry Brown did, and we won't have any of the soap operas that plagued the team last season (sigh.......). 

I still think Isiah will get fired, most likely after this season if something drastic doesn't happen, and I'd imagine this move was Dolan's choice and not Isiah's, but I think it should translate into a marginal improvement for the Knicks next year.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

As a Bulls fan, the news really can't get any better. My only fear for next year's Knicks was Brown pushing Isiah to bring in some overpriced role players ("his type of guys") to improve that club defensively, at least in the short-term. At this point, I would anticipate only minor roster changes, meaning that club should still be laughably bad. Only Portland is worse as far as I can tell.


----------



## Wishbone

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Only hardcore Starbury/JCraw/Curry jockriders will buy into Dolan/Zeke's scapegoating of Larry Brown. The Knicks failings last season were not of his doing. Even if the team plays better next season, last season wasn't LB's fault.


that's what makes this all so beautiful!! LB was the only person they had who could have made something useful out of that roster.
with him out of the way, I just can't help but picture the Knicks in a death spiral, probably for seasons to come


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



ScottMay said:


> Totally disagree, TB. Lawrence assumed no responsibility whatsoever for the reality that Isiah would not be able to reconstruct the roster in two months. No one denies that it is a poorly constructed roster for any coach, let alone one who preaches defense, but this was far and away the worst coaching job of Brown's career. He basically quit on the job.


I don't think he quit on the job until it was clear that the crew of spoiled babies he was coaching had their fingers planted deep in their ears, and unlike the seemingly similarly situated group of stars in Miami, the Bickerknockers were absolutely unwilling to buy into a team concept and be coached.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I don't think he quit on the job until it was clear that the crew of spoiled babies he was coaching had their fingers planted deep in their ears, and unlike the seemingly similarly situated group of stars in Miami, the Bickerknockers were absolutely unwilling to buy into a team concept and be coached.


So you do agree that he quit on the job and that this was far and away the worst coaching job he's ever done . . . yes?


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



> I'll be interested to see if anyone takes a chance on Brown. There's no doubt that Isiah presented him with a troubled, imbalanced roster, but Brown did an absolutely miserable job of coaching it. When you can't do as good a job as Lenny Wilkens or Don Chaney, you've got some soul-searching to do.


I think the balance of that roster got worse before and during Brown's tenure. But he certainly didn't do a bang up job, thats for sure.



> Bringing in Isiah was inevitable once things went south with Brown, and I don't think it'll do any real good for the Knicks in the long haul. But I do believe they'll be a lot better next year, which doesn't bode well for our pick swap.


I think they'll be a "little" better - based on what I know of their roster at this moment. I think Isiah will let them freestyle a little bit more which, in the short term, will lead to some more wins. They have some decent physical talent on that team. Of course, that is devastating to long term sustained success, but that is irrelevent to me as a Bulls fan. All I care about is next season.

That said, my goal for the pick swap has been that it lead to a top 10 pick. Next year's draft looks to be that deep with "potential" long term impact players - many of them bigs. I just don't see the Knicks improving enough to climb *9 whole spots * over other teams with already superior records, better young talent, higher draft picks, more capspace and/or superior veteran players like Houston, Charlotte, Golden State, Minnesota, Toronto, and Atlanta. 

I could see teams like Seattle, Boston, and Portland plunging or staying horrible and I have no doubt the Knicks will end up in a better position than they did this year. But I just find it almost impossible to believe that, given the current roster, they'll end up leapfrogging all of those teams.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



ScottMay said:


> So you do agree that he quit on the job and that this was far and away the worst coaching job he's ever done . . . yes?


Once it became clear he was in an impossible situation, yes, he quit. But they quit on him before he quit on them. And of course it was the worst coaching job he's ever done. If the players freeze you out and won't be coached, you can't do a very good job of coaching.

I put the failures of the Knicks squarely on the shoulders of the players who wouldn't be coached by Larry.


----------



## Frankensteiner

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Ron Cey said:


> I think they'll be a "little" better - based on what I know of their roster at this moment. I think Isiah will let them freestyle a little bit more which, in the short term, will lead to some more wins. They have some decent physical talent on that team. Of course, that is devastating to long term sustained success, but that is irrelevent to me as a Bulls fan. All I care about is next season.


The way I look at it is Rick Carlisle and Larry Brown are very similar coaches. The Pacers improved by 13 games after firing Isiah and his freestyle approach for Carlisle's slow-it-down gameplan. Basically, Isiah is a boob, imo. I refuse to believe his involvement in any team's affairs will lead to any sort of improvement.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Once it became clear he was in an impossible situation, yes, he quit. But they quit on him before he quit on them. And of course it was the worst coaching job he's ever done. If the players freeze you out and won't be coached, you can't do a very good job of coaching.
> 
> I put the failures of the Knicks squarely on the shoulders of the players who wouldn't be coached by Larry.


I don't know . . . for forty million bucks, I would hope you'd get a coach to gut it out for more than 6-8 weeks. I know forty million isn't what it used to be, but still.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

I guess its good news, although the Knicks could not get much worse than they were under Brown.

Let's hope the Knicks stink and we can get another good draft pick.

Perhaps that pick will be what takes the Bulls back to having home court advantage in the first round and perhaps even winning a playoff series. Lord knows this team needs a good starting center and a big guard.


----------



## jnrjr79

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



ScottMay said:


> I don't know . . . for forty million bucks, I would hope you'd get a coach to gut it out for more than 6-8 weeks. I know forty million isn't what it used to be, but still.



I think Tom's point is whatever Larry did, it wouldn't have made a difference. He had already been tuned out at that point, so whether his coaching was to be stellar or terrible, it wouldn't have mattered. The players have to be willing to listen.

From my point of view, it's clear the players tuned Larry out. Could he have done something to reverse that? I don't know. He couldn't have rescued the season, but whether he could have made some progress at the end, I'm not sure. 

In any event, I am not convinced this is a great move for the Bulls. Yes, it is the inmates running the asylum. I think it's assured that Isaiah won't be able to turn the team into a winner. However, if he adopts a "let the kids play" attitude, they may eek out a few more wins because they are having fun and may play a little harder, even if it isn't good team ball. The fact of the matter is, the Knicks suuuuuuuucked last year. I don't think when a team is that bad you can bank on them repeating it. It's absolutely possible, but far from a sure thing. I'm confident we'll be swapping picks though, no matter what.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*



Frankensteiner said:


> The way I look at it is Rick Carlisle and Larry Brown are very similar coaches. The Pacers improved by 13 games after firing Isiah and his freestyle approach for Carlisle's slow-it-down gameplan. Basically, Isiah is a boob, imo. I refuse to believe his involvement in any team's affairs will lead to any sort of improvement.


But by the time Carlisle took over that team, they had become veterans quite capable of playing structured ball. And they were hard workers with good attitudes willing to buy in.

New York isn't composed of those types of players. It is composed of players who will play harder without structure because they want to freelance and will consider 30 wins to validate their style of play since they only had 23 under Brown. Thats what Isiah will bring. 

And Isiah will let them do it. He's walking the plank right now. Thats what this move is. Its Dolan saying "you brought in these players, you better show me they can win or you are fired." Isiah will sacrifice long term gains for immediate returns with every decision he makes this year. And it will work - in the short term. The record will improve, in my opinion. Just not enough to avoid sending us a very good draft slot.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

Zeke may be a bit distracted in the fall. I believe that's the scheduled date for the harrassment trial.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



kukoc4ever said:


> Lord knows this team needs a good starting center and a big guard.


Apparently not as badly as they need a blood raw 6'8" small forward with Bright Lights, Big City issues.

But maybe that guy will get us homecourt advantage and a winning playoff series.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Apparently not as badly as they need a blood raw 6'8" small forward with Bright Lights, Big City issues.


LOL. I'm not in love with any of the potential draft picks.

As of today, I'm leaning towards Bargnani.


I don't know why Paxson is apparently so enamored with Thomas either.


----------



## thebizkit69u

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

New York is a joke of a franchise and Isiah Thomas is a joke of a GM/Coach .


----------



## TripleDouble

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

I think the Knicks will be better now. Isaih coaching them was the whole round hole, square peg thing. At least now Isaih will let them try to beat teams 120-110.


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



TripleDouble said:


> I think the Knicks will be better now. Isaih coaching them was the whole round hole, square peg thing. At least now Isaih will let them try to beat teams 120-110.


I agree. The personal did not fit the coaching mentality, except for Jamal Crawford who Larry Brown praised.

And, there really is nowhere to go but up for the Knicks.


----------



## SecretAgentGuy

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

Heard something about the Knicks fired Brown on "just cause" and won't be paying him. This is getting more and more interesting by the minute! 

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/22/sports/basketball/22cnd-knicks.html?_r=1&oref=slogin



> Yet Dolan's disenchantment went far beyond the poor results on the court, and he ultimately fired Brown for a number of other transgressions. The Knicks, contending that Brown violated several provisions of his contract, fired him "for cause," and thus do not intend to pay him balance of his contract, in excess of $40 million.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



kukoc4ever said:


> As of today, I'm leaning towards Bargnani.


Hey that guy actually MIGHT get us homecourt advantage and a winning playoff series.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



jnrjr79 said:


> I think Tom's point is whatever Larry did, it wouldn't have made a difference. He had already been tuned out at that point, so whether his coaching was to be stellar or terrible, it wouldn't have mattered. The players have to be willing to listen.
> 
> From my point of view, it's clear the players tuned Larry out. Could he have done something to reverse that? I don't know. He couldn't have rescued the season, but whether he could have made some progress at the end, I'm not sure.
> 
> In any event, I am not convinced this is a great move for the Bulls. Yes, it is the inmates running the asylum. I think it's assured that Isaiah won't be able to turn the team into a winner. However, if he adopts a "let the kids play" attitude, they may eek out a few more wins because they are having fun and may play a little harder, even if it isn't good team ball. The fact of the matter is, the Knicks suuuuuuuucked last year. I don't think when a team is that bad you can bank on them repeating it. It's absolutely possible, but far from a sure thing. I'm confident we'll be swapping picks though, no matter what.


I think "tuning out" is not at all a one-way street.

The common refrain we heard from Larry early on was "I can't teach these guys to. . . [insert fundamental act here -- play defense, manage the clock, tie their shoes, whatever], that's on them." That's insulting to a professional basketball player, even if it's true, but if it's not accompanied by actual teaching, it's a useless, counterproductive way to coach. "Trying hard" is an integral part of being a successful NBA player, but "trying hard" in and of itself accomplishes nothing. 

Brown knew what he was getting into: he knew it wasn't his kind of team, he knew that he and Isiah didn't see eye-to-eye on personnel, and he knew that even if he and Isiah were in complete lockstep on the kinds of players to acquire, it was going to be impossible to overhaul the roster in one season. 

Again, I have no illusions of Isiah's taking the Knicks to the playoffs, or his being their coach four years from now, or that there is even a remote likelihood that Paxson won't be executing the pick swap next year. I'm just saying I strongly doubt they'll be as bad. 

(Of course, I also thought that Brown would continue to do a Hall-of-Fame job on the sidelines this year, and I couldn't have been more wrong. Maybe the Knicks won't win ten games next year.)


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Hey that guy actually MIGHT get us homecourt advantage and a winning playoff series.



Ah who cares.

Its lots more fun to relentlessly bash the Knicks.

Its all about being better than the Knicks and then ripping on the NBA Champion contending teams/ players during the post season, after the Bulls are eliminated.


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



ScottMay said:


> So you do agree that he quit on the job and that this was far and away the worst coaching job he's ever done . . . yes?


The coaching of the 2004 Olympics team was also pretty bad. What kind of an idiot glues Lebron James on the bench?

In his later days Larry Brown became just too ridgid as a coach. New York has talent, but they could never be turned into the 2004-5 Pistons. When IT traded the only defensive frontline stalwart he had (AD), LB essentially went on vacation for the rest of the season. With AD gone and Rose & Francis added, the team clearly had to play a Phoenix-style game, at least until there were further roster changes. It was LB's responsibility to make the best of the talent he had available, instead of complaining about it.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



kukoc4ever said:


> Ah who cares.
> 
> Its lots more fun to relentlessly bash the Knicks.
> 
> Its all about being better than the Knicks and then ripping on the NBA Champion contenting teams/ players during the post season, after the Bulls are eliminated.


:laugh:

Apparently so.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Only hardcore Starbury/JCraw/Curry jockriders will buy into Dolan/Zeke's scapegoating of Larry Brown. The Knicks failings last season were not of his doing. Even if the team plays better next season, last season wasn't LB's fault.



thats completely wrong , Brown wasn't even fired for losing a record amount of games, he was fired because he was repeatedly told to shut up about the players and kept talking to the point Dolan took it personal.

I'm not saying there wasn't a part of wasn't his shaky coaching decisions(and shaky is being generous) but he would have been brought back if he could have kept his mouth shut.

Dolan fired marv albert for the same offense and Marv was an institution, Larry brown did not make it that staus.

And I'm not saying the knicks would have been worldbeaters without that craziness , but he clearly didn't help bring order to the franchise , he contributed to the chaos.


----------



## jnrjr79

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



ScottMay said:


> Brown knew what he was getting into: he knew it wasn't his kind of team, he knew that he and Isiah didn't see eye-to-eye on personnel, and he knew that even if he and Isiah were in complete lockstep on the kinds of players to acquire, it was going to be impossible to overhaul the roster in one season.



I couldn't agree more than this. Everyone could see this disaster coming a mile away. Larry wanted the money, the challenge, the bright lights, or whatever it was. However, it was obvious nobody was going to be able to coach up the team that was going to be on the floor this year.


----------



## lougehrig

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



sp00k said:


> Heard something about the Knicks fired Brown on "just cause" and won't be paying him. This is getting more and more interesting by the minute!
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/22/sports/basketball/22cnd-knicks.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


It this drags through the summer and into training camp and early part of the season, you know Dolan and Isiah and the players would have to participate in the legal proceedings. This is going to distract the entire franchise like crazy. It's tough enough to win when everyone is on the same page, let alone with this three ring circus floating around!

The dream lineup can now be a reality in the Garden

PG - Starbury
PG2 - Francis
SG - Crawford
SG2 - Jalen
C - Curry

Bench:
Robinson
Frye
Taylor
Rose
Lee
Woods


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

This is really, IMO, just an attempt by Dolan to aggressively negotiate what LB's eventual settlement will be.


----------



## BG7

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

Dammit, Knicks are making the playoffs now. No more starting Malik Rose


----------



## lougehrig

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

Just because its funny, here is the Knicks payroll for next season.

Allan Houston $20.7M
Stephon Marbury $18.3M
Jalen Rose $16.9M
Steven Francis $15.1M
Q Richardson $7.5M
Jamal Crawford $7.2M
Nate Robinson $1.2M
Shandon Anderson $7.2M

Guards $94M

Mo Taylor $9.8M
Eddy Curry $8.0M
Malik Rose $6.6M
Jerome James $5.4M
Channing Frye $2.3M
David Lee $1M

Forwards $33M

For $94M you could sign Iverson, Kobe, McGrady, Vince, Nash, Pierce, Lebron and DWade for that price!!!


----------



## anorexorcist

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

I still say Greg Oden, here we come.


----------



## 7RINGS?

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

Here comes Mr. Oden is right!!


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Larry Brown / Knicks Meltdown*

This will be an interesting coaching challenge for IT. 

Currently the Knicks are a team with a backcourt of four shooting guards with limited playmaking capabilities who can't or won't defend the perimeter, mediocre jump-shot happy wingmen featuring the matador syle defense of J Rose, and young big men with some offensive capabilities who can't or won't provide interior defense.

IT is not going to sit players simply because they don't contribute defensively. So why make anyone unhappy? Obviously the best thing is to give up the idea of playing defense altogether, and run, run, run. 

Happy days for playground basketball will be here again in NY in the fall. The Knicks have enough young horses to make the season more interesting and win a few more games -- at least at the start of the season. Look for major exposure for exciting new draftees and last year's rookies -- and all the turnovers that go with it. 

Sometime in January other NBA teams will solidify their rotations and defensive schemes, and the party will be over in NY. The rookies will hit the wall or benched, the sophmores will discover their limitations have been diagnosed by opposing teams, and the veterans will begin to grumble about how hard it is to play an up-tempo game four times in 5 nights. The team will struggle to score, rebound and stop defending altogether. Finally, the slowly wised-up Dolan will fire IT when he tries to trade Taylor and Rose's expiring contracts for a longer duration bad contracts.

Anyway, that's my guess about what will happen in NY.


----------



## BULLS23

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

Yeah, I think we'll be very happy taking NYK's pick off their hands next year . . . I know that whoever we get with #2 will be solid this year, but with Zeke in full control next year this is going to be a trainwreck.

I hate the Knicks . . .


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



anorexorcist said:


> I still say Greg Oden, here we come.


We'll certainly need him if we draft the guy in your avatar this year.


----------



## jbulls

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



ScottMay said:


> We'll certainly need him if we draft the guy in your avatar this year.


 :clap:


----------



## thebizkit69u

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

















Future Bull?


----------



## Brian.

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

I would actually expect them to be a little bit better next year. Zeke isn't going to make them "play the right way" so they can run and gun to their hearts content. Of course they are going to give up a 110 pts a game but that roster can score a 120 so it should be interesting.


----------



## Vintage

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



thebizkit69u said:


> Future Bull?



We should ask her if he has good jib.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



Brian said:


> I would actually expect them to be a little bit better next year. Zeke isn't going to make them "play the right way" so they can run and gun to their hearts content. Of course they are going to give up a 110 pts a game but that roster can score a 120 so it should be interesting.


I see it this way. Zeke is going to get a present early on. He and the players will be on the same page wanting to make Larry look bad. They'll string together some wins. Then the "me me me's" will start to creep in. Zeke won't be able to crack the whip to get all those egomaniacs to stay together and play any kind of team game. 

The falloff wil be dramatic and fun to watch (for non-Knick fans).

The improvement over this past year will be measured by how long that initial honeymoon period keeps on going.

I really hope the lessons Crawford learned under LB carry over, because I really enjoyed watching him mature last year. While it would be to our benefit, I hope the IT regime doesn't lead Jamal back into his frustrating Globetrotter mode.


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

I just want to point out that that girl isn't wearing any pants.

I went to deadspin to read the article/comments that accompanied the piece. Apparently this was taken at a party during Oden's/Conley's official visit to Ohio State.

"Stay in school," indeed. We can't have 18-year-olds exposed to the crass, corrupt life of the NBA when they could be studying and improving themselves as human beings!


----------



## fl_flash

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



Brian said:


> I would actually expect them to be a little bit better next year. Zeke isn't going to make them "play the right way" so they can run and gun to their hearts content. Of course they are going to give up a 110 pts a game but that roster can score a 120 so it should be interesting.


I gotta disagree. Zeke will have them play an uptempo game, that's true. Their problem is going to be that they won't be able to stop anybody. The Knicks will be one of the worst defensive teams in the league next year. At least Larry Brown was stressing defense and at times the Knick players actually looked like they were interested in defense. With Thomas - all that goes out the window. Marbury, Crawford, Richardson, Robinson, Rose, Rose, Curry, Lee, Frye, et. al. are all poor to terrible defenders.

The Knicks aren't the Suns. There's no Steve Nash on that team and there aren't the bevy of shooters and scorers on the Knicks that the Suns have. Most every player on the Knicks needs the ball in their hands to be effective. Only one ball and eventually guys who are selfish and need the ball to score are going to take matters into their own hands and break off plays and do their own thing. They did it to Larry Brown and they'll do it to Zeke.

Teams should have no problem running up 110 to 120 pts on the Knicks. The Knicks will have a problem matching that pace because they don't have the personnel to do it.

It's not the coach... It's the players.


----------



## thebizkit69u

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



ScottMay said:


> I just want to point out that that girl isn't wearing any pants.
> 
> I went to deadspin to read the article/comments that accompanied the piece. Apparently this was taken at a party during Oden's/Conley's official visit to Ohio State.
> 
> "Stay in school," indeed. We can't have 18-year-olds exposed to the crass, corrupt life of the NBA when they could be studying and improving themselves as human beings!


I'm telling you, the only way Ohio State got Greg Oden instead of him going to NC, Duke , Wake etc is because they pulled a Jesus Shuttlesworth type of recruiting visit for Oden.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

I'd expect the Knicks to improve. They are very offensively talented, just hard work and jib challenged. For all involved, it is their last chance to "save face" and self-respect around the league. Isaiah can coach.

That said, I think this is the more important summer for the forward history of our team, instead of next. Whatever happens will just be gravy, I'd suspect.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

Chicago
Detriot
Indiana
Cleveland
Milwaukee
Washington
Miami
New Jersey

THey won't be better than ANY of these teams next year.

They DEFININTELY won't be better than 

Orlando

Then you have Toronto & Charlotte, two teams that will greatly improve...

NY will be back at the bottom..again


----------



## Darius Miles Davis

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



Brian said:


> I would actually expect them to be a little bit better next year. Zeke isn't going to make them "play the right way" so they can run and gun to their hearts content. Of course they are going to give up a 110 pts a game but that roster can score a 120 so it should be interesting.


I tend to agree with this. I think there is something to be said with matching the players to the coach. Finally, Marbury and Francis will have a coach who coddles them. They will enjoy the freedom. I expect more wins out of the Knicks this year, though I still do not expect them to make the playoffs with their flawed roster. However, if we end up pick swapping for the 10th pick in the draft, I would not be surprised.


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

*Going into this morning's meeting, Dolan was actually prepared to retain Brown as coach despite the organization's silence over the past month after it was first reported that Brown was on his way out and Thomas would replace him, but the owner did not receive the assurances he wanted from Brown that he would change his ways in the upcoming season.*
http://www.truehoop.com/new-york-knicks-21219-larry-brown-fired.html


----------



## TRUTHHURTS

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



The ROY said:


> Chicago
> Detriot
> Indiana
> Cleveland
> Milwaukee
> Washington
> Miami
> New Jersey
> 
> THey won't be better than ANY of these teams next year.
> 
> They DEFININTELY won't be better than
> 
> Orlando
> 
> Then you have Toronto & Charlotte, two teams that will greatly improve...
> 
> NY will be back at the bottom..again



there is a lot of questions surrounding every team in the conference besides Miami and Cle . Everyone could possibly at this point be going through dramatic additions or subtractions from the roster so who knows how those respective teams react. Also I have a feeling that Frye,lee,Robinson,Crawford,Curry ,will be much improved and better than expected . I just get the feeling that Francis or marbury wont be on the roster come November and the knicks will be one of those no one thought it would work but they surprise type situations 

Lots of questions to be answered


----------



## ace20004u

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



TRUTHHURTS said:


> there is a lot of questions surrounding every team in the conference besides Miami and Cle . Everyone could possibly at this point be going through dramatic additions or subtractions from the roster so who knows how those respective teams react. Also I have a feeling that Frye,lee,Robinson,Crawford,Curry ,will be much improved and better than expected . I just get the feeling that Francis or marbury wont be on the roster come November and the knicks will be one of those no one thought it would work but they surprise type situations
> 
> Lots of questions to be answered



It's possible. I could definitley see some improvement from the players you mentioned making the Knicks better. They need to deal Marbury and/or Francis though and thats going to be hard to do IMO.


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

I wrote the following in the Knicks Meltdown thread this morning:



> I think they'll be a "little" better - based on what I know of their roster at this moment. I think Isiah will let them freestyle a little bit more which, in the short term, will lead to some more wins. They have some decent physical talent on that team. Of course, that style is devastating to long term sustained success, but that is irrelevent to me as a Bulls fan. All I care about is next season.
> 
> That said, my goal for the pick swap has been that it lead to a top 10 pick. Next year's draft looks to be that deep with "potential" long term impact players - many of them bigs. I just don't see the Knicks improving enough to climb 9 whole spots over other teams with already superior records, better young talent, higher draft picks, more capspace and/or superior veteran players like Houston, Charlotte, Golden State, Minnesota, Toronto, and Atlanta.
> 
> I could see teams like Seattle, Boston, and Portland plunging or staying horrible and I have no doubt the Knicks will end up in a better position than they did this year. But I just find it almost impossible to believe that, given the current roster, they'll end up leapfrogging all of those teams.


Isiah's walking the plank. He'll improve them a little bit, but not enough. Then he'll be fired and, god-willing, never re-hired by another NBA team again.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



TRUTHHURTS said:


> there is a lot of questions surrounding every team in the conference besides Miami and Cle . Everyone could possibly at this point be going through dramatic additions or subtractions from the roster so who knows how those respective teams react. Also I have a feeling that Frye,lee,Robinson,Crawford,Curry ,will be much improved and better than expected . I just get the feeling that Francis or marbury wont be on the roster come November and the knicks will be one of those no one thought it would work but they surprise type situations
> 
> Lots of questions to be answered


Bottom line...

we'll get ATLEAST a top 10 pick from NY next year...


----------



## ScottMay

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



Ron Cey said:


> Then he'll be fired and, god-willing, never re-hired by another NBA team again.


Following your logic, wouldn't you want him to be rehired immediately and to always be in the employ of an NBA team?


----------



## Bulls4Life

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

*The cost of saying goodbye to Larry Brown:* 








40 Million






*Isiah Thomas' payroll next season:* 








120 Million






*Our swap of first round picks next season:* 






































PRICELESS!!!!!!!!!!
:djparty:


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



ScottMay said:


> Following your logic, wouldn't you want him to be rehired immediately and to always be in the employ of an NBA team?


No. I hate him. Really.


----------



## The ROY

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

Lmao!!!!!!!!


----------



## McBulls

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



thebizkit69u said:


> Future Bull?


Oden looks old enough to be his own father in the picture. 
How can a 18 year old have wrinkles on his face?


----------



## SecretAgentGuy

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*


























Hmmm....


----------



## GB

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



> The Knicks, contending that Brown violated several provisions of his contract, fired him "for cause," and thus do not intend to pay him the balance of his contract, in excess of $40 million.
> 
> Under terms of Brown's contract, a five-year deal, he can appeal the team's decision to withhold his pay. Commissioner David Stern will ultimately decide the issue.


Told you this would happen.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/22/s...&en=087efd39ccbfa525&ei=5094&partner=homepage


----------



## kukoc4ever

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

Brown gets fired "for cause" and Isiah keeps his job and become the coach?

What a bunch of clowns.


----------



## BG7

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



thebizkit69u said:


> I'm telling you, the only way Ohio State got Greg Oden instead of him going to NC, Duke , Wake etc is because they pulled a Jesus Shuttlesworth type of recruiting visit for Oden.


No way, it just means that Greg Oden, HE GOT GAME.... :biggrin:


----------



## transplant

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

Lemme get this right. 

Thomas puts together the highest payroll team in the NBA. The team finishes 29 of 30, and just about everyone in the NBA who looks at the roster scratches his head so hard it bleeds. The owner agrees that the coach was the problem and decides that the solution is to give Thomas the TWO most critical jobs in the organization.

This Dolan guy is obviously a visionary.

I don't like Larry Brown. He's a carpetbagger who has a well-documented history of using organizations for his own purposes and then leaving them in the lurch. He also has a well-documented history of coaching success. He can coach the game. 

I don't feel the least bit sorry for Brown. He's always been about the money and now he's set for life, without needing to deal with the tedium of coaching a bunch of spoiled millionaires. All good.

I expect the Knicks to get off to a reasonably decent start next season. Each of the primmadonnas will believe that coach Thomas will allow them to finally play "my game." They'll play with some energy, and with the talent they have, they may have some success. As the season progresses, however, it will become clear that:

a) there's only one ball.

b) 5 guys, each playing "my game" doesn't work very well in the NBA.

c) defense actually matters.

I'm on record as saying (several times) that I like Scott Skiles as a coach. If Skiles were the Knicks coach, he'd fail just as badly as Brown did...only louder and possibly bloodier. That is one poorly-constructed squad.

I still like the odds that the swap of first round picks with the Knicks will turn out to be decidedly in the Bulls' favor.


----------



## mizenkay

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



ScottMay said:


> http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?t=213782&page=100&pp=15




yes, i believe it's time!

merge!


----------



## mizenkay

*the 05-06 knicks tabloid greatest hits!*















































and my _all time_ favorite...


----------



## TRUTHHURTS

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

If you look back on isiahs history hes a pretty shrewed guy in terms of planning.I dont think he believes he can win anymore than Brown can with the current group but he felt brown was undermining his authority by going to the owner about personnel and calling his friends on other teams making inquiries and discussing players . I really think that the only way to keep his job longterm would be to now move Francis and Marbury and cling his hopes to the youth. To place your job in Francis or Marburys hands is crazy .


----------



## Ron Cey

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



TRUTHHURTS said:


> If you look back on isiahs history hes a pretty shrewed guy in terms of planning.


Planning for what? Self preservation? He's a ****ing idiot.


----------



## ScottMay

I'm sure tomorrow will bring much, much more punditry, but here's Marc Stein's early take:



> Marc Stein: Call me crazy, but I won't be surprised if the Knicks win 40 and make a run for the eighth spot. Seriously. It's still an heinous mix of players on that roster, but Isiah will play an up-tempo game that gives his guards a chance. And, at least for a while, Steph and Francis will realize they've been given a new lease on life and play team ball for him.


----------



## narek

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*



TRUTHHURTS said:


> If you look back on isiahs history hes a pretty shrewed guy in terms of planning.I dont think he believes he can win anymore than Brown can with the current group but he felt brown was undermining his authority by going to the owner about personnel and calling his friends on other teams making inquiries and discussing players . I really think that the only way to keep his job longterm would be to now move Francis and Marbury and cling his hopes to the youth. To place your job in Francis or Marburys hands is crazy .


The people who worked with him in the old CBA will question the planning part. 

But he planned to have his payroll be so out of wack he has no flexibility for a few years? He planned to bring on Stevie Franchise and Jalen Rose and help out Orlando and Toronto gain flexibility and keep the Knicks in the Luxury Tax even longer?

And who would be willing to take Francis or Marbury and bail Zeke out?


----------



## yodurk

*Re: OT: Knicks Fire Larry Brown, Name Isiah Coach*

Unfortunately, I agree that Isiah will marginally improve the Knicks next season. I doubt it will be enough to earn them a playoff spot, but it might be enough to screw us out of another top 5 selection. I have no doubt that his players will come out rejuvenated mentally for Isiah. I would predict about 32-35 wins for them, and we'll end up with the 7th or 8th pick in the next year's draft IMO. It's too bad, because LB wouldn't have exceeded 30 wins.


----------



## ScottMay

I am stunned by the candor in this quote from Brown, especially as he's headed into a "just cause" dispute with the commish over how much of his deal he's going to get.



> Brown said he was "relieved" the 40-day ordeal was over and didn't dispute the decision.
> 
> "I'm disappointed, I love this franchise, but I didn't do what I was paid to do," Brown told The Post in front of his Greenwich, Conn., home. "I didn't do the job. I wish them well and I move on.
> 
> "I had a great opportunity, I love this franchise, they feel I didn't do what I came to do," Brown said. "I mean, I won 23 games."
> 
> The Knicks believe Brown violated his contract this season by persistently criticizing players in the media after being told to refrain, particularly in his feud with Stephon Marbury, and are will not willing to pay him a dime more.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/knicks_say_bye__brown_knicks_marc_berman.htm

However, Mike Lupica's column suggests that once the salary issue is decided, Brown will issue some sort of "tell-all." 



> "There'll be a day when I have my full say," Brown said yesterday, sitting with an iced tea in front of him. He had already been advised not to say very much in public yesterday about his meeting with Dolan and Thomas and Steve Mills, who somehow has the title of Garden president.
> 
> But he was still amazed, even more amazed than angry or hurt, at what he had heard from Dolan and Thomas at the meeting, in the weird parallel Knick world in which the owner of the place and the Knicks general manager currently exist.
> 
> "I don't think today's an appropriate time to comment on everything that's gone on," Brown said. "But I'm just gonna say this: Nobody gets to say that I came to New York, and to the Garden, and didn't want to win."
> 
> You can talk about what a lousy job Brown did. He sure has. You can be as thick as Dolan and actually believe the lies he has been fed by Thomas about how it was Brown who really tried to sink the franchise. And after all that you look at the three of them - Dolan, Thomas, Brown - and have to understand that only Brown has any kind of résumé at his present job. Or what was his job until Dolan and Thomas fired him yesterday.


And Howard Beck's piece in the Times confirms that MULTIPLE NBA executives informed the Knicks that Brown surreptitiously called other teams to suggest trades. Yikes.



> The Knicks won just 23 games under Brown and posted their worst record in 20 years. A noted turnaround artist and Hall of Famer, the 65-year-old Brown failed to match his credentials. He used an N.B.A.-record 42 starting lineups, alienated most of his players and posted just his fourth losing record in 34 seasons as a head coach.
> 
> Worse, in the view of Knicks officials, Brown repeatedly demeaned his players, despite repeated orders from Dolan to stop. Brown publicly feuded with his star point guard, Stephon Marbury, and in private, clashed with Thomas over personnel decisions.
> 
> Executives from N.B.A. teams who have spoken with Knicks officials say that it was Brown's behavior, more than the poor record, that prompted his dismissal, and the refusal to pay the rest of his contract. The executives were granted anonymity because they are not authorized to comment on another team's operations. Brown's greatest offense, according to the executives, was that he often called friends around the league to suggest trade scenarios, undermining Thomas's authority.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/23/sports/basketball/23knicks.html

This whole situation represents a perfect storm we'll probably never witness again -- an egomaniac head coach who signed a deal knowing he really didn't want the job, then essentially sabotaged his team to force his firing; a wildly incompetent, egomaniac GM who will throw anything and anyone under the bus to escape accountability; and an egomaniac, painfully inept CEO who should be a case study for the dangers of nepotism.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

ScottMay said:


> This whole situation represents a perfect storm we'll probably never witness again -- an egomaniac head coach who signed a deal knowing he really didn't want the job, then essentially sabotaged his team to force his firing; a wildly incompetent, egomaniac GM who will throw anything and anyone under the bus to escape accountability; and an egomaniac, painfully inept CEO who should be a case study for the dangers of nepotism.


and of course, the merry band of jibless wonders.


----------



## ScottMay

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> and of course, the merry band of jibless wonders.


It's ironic that one of our ex-players who was cast off almost exclusively for "jib" reasons was the one guy who completely bought in to Brown's program and responded with his best season as a pro. I wish Skiles had been able to get through to him.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

ScottMay said:


> It's ironic that one of our ex-players who was cast off almost exclusively for "jib" reasons was the one guy who completely bought in to Brown's program and responded with his best season as a pro. I wish Skiles had been able to get through to him.


Agreed on all counts.


----------



## GB

Brown might not see much of that money he left on the table.

I liked Jamal, but not at the price he was signed for at the time and where he was in his development at the time. 

Its also a mistake to refer to it to Skiles failure to get through to him...it was more Jamals failure to buy in to Skiles and then deciding to buy in to Brown when he heard the same thing that Skiles (and Cartwright and Floyd) had been telling him and finding himself in the situations that he'd been in here because of it.


----------



## McBulls

As much as I regret the passing of this thread, it will soon be necessary to move on to another one entitled "Isiah Thomas / Knicks climactic denouement" or something.


----------



## jbulls

ScottMay said:


> It's ironic that one of our ex-players who was cast off almost exclusively for "jib" reasons was the one guy who completely bought in to Brown's program and responded with his best season as a pro. I wish Skiles had been able to get through to him.


It's a little unfair to suggest that Skiles didn't get through to Crawford at all. Jamal didn't shoot the ball well in his one year playing for Skiles, but he did put up 17, 5 and 3 - by far his best statistical output up to that point. And since that point, for that matter. I think he developed under Skiles, and continued to develop under Brown.


----------



## Da Grinch

I dont think its fair to blame skiles for not getting through to crawford , in fact I'm not sure he didn't, they wanted JC to be the designated gunner for the team he was, most people's problem with crawford was his unaggressive offensive game , not drawing fouls and such , something neither gordon, duhon or kirk has really developed since . duhon and kirk drive to pass usually and gordon on the inside shoots the same albeit more effective floater that drew the ire of so many bulls fans with crawford.

defensively according to the stats(82games.com) JC was pretty effective as a bull defender at the 2 under skiles(.457 efg% 21.8 pts per 48 min and 16.2 PER), at least compared to the guy who defended the most next to him who was considered a defender. in kendall gill(466 efg% 22.3 pts per 48 17.6 PER), he made some lackasical plays here and there but we all know skiles had no problem sitting him when he made it a habit.

I chalk it more to his natural evolution as a player than someone "getting through" to him, his last year as a bull he was moved to the 2 on the fly , last season was 2 years later , he made improvement the year in between in may ways and next year I expect more improvement, it would be nice if he could have the same coach 2 years in a row , i believe getting a different voice every year slows his develoment somewhat.


----------



## McBulls

Da Grinch said:


> I dont think its fair to blame skiles for not getting through to crawford , in fact I'm not sure he didn't, they wanted JC to be the designated gunner for the team he was, most people's problem with crawford was his unaggressive offensive game , not drawing fouls and such , something neither gordon, duhon or kirk has really developed since . duhon and kirk drive to pass usually and gordon on the inside shoots the same albeit more effective floater that drew the ire of so many bulls fans with crawford.
> 
> defensively according to the stats(82games.com) JC was pretty effective as a bull defender at the 2 under skiles(.457 efg% 21.8 pts per 48 min and 16.2 PER), at least compared to the guy who defended the most next to him who was considered a defender. in kendall gill(466 efg% 22.3 pts per 48 17.6 PER), he made some lackasical plays here and there but we all know skiles had no problem sitting him when he made it a habit.
> 
> I chalk it more to his natural evolution as a player than someone "getting through" to him, his last year as a bull he was moved to the 2 on the fly , last season was 2 years later , he made improvement the year in between in may ways and next year I expect more improvement, it would be nice if he could have the same coach 2 years in a row , i believe getting a different voice every year slows his develoment somewhat.


Bottom line is that I don't think the Bulls (or anyone else for that matter) would trade a second round draft choice for Crawford this summer (taking on his contract in the process). He's just not worth the $7.2 M that he's going to earn next year and the $36 M for 4 years after that.


----------



## yodurk

Da Grinch said:


> I dont think its fair to blame skiles for not getting through to crawford , in fact I'm not sure he didn't, they wanted JC to be the designated gunner for the team he was, most people's problem with crawford was his unaggressive offensive game , not drawing fouls and such , something neither gordon, duhon or kirk has really developed since . duhon and kirk drive to pass usually and gordon on the inside shoots the same albeit more effective floater that drew the ire of so many bulls fans with crawford.
> 
> defensively according to the stats(82games.com) JC was pretty effective as a bull defender at the 2 under skiles(.457 efg% 21.8 pts per 48 min and 16.2 PER), at least compared to the guy who defended the most next to him who was considered a defender. in kendall gill(466 efg% 22.3 pts per 48 17.6 PER), he made some lackasical plays here and there but we all know skiles had no problem sitting him when he made it a habit.
> 
> I chalk it more to his natural evolution as a player than someone "getting through" to him, his last year as a bull he was moved to the 2 on the fly , last season was 2 years later , he made improvement the year in between in may ways and next year I expect more improvement, it would be nice if he could have the same coach 2 years in a row , i believe getting a different voice every year slows his develoment somewhat.


I also tend to think that Jamal has hit the point of his career where he's sick of the constant losing (hasn't had 1 single winning season yet in his career). And finally, he realizes that maybe the Larry Brown/Scott Skiles way of doing things just might be "the right way" for him to play. I think he's making an asserted effort to play this way, but unfortunately for him that won't happen the way Isiah is running things. I think Isiah will confuse JC even more.


----------



## ScottMay

McBulls said:


> Bottom line is that I don't think the Bulls (or anyone else for that matter) would trade a second round draft choice for Crawford this summer (taking on his contract in the process). He's just not worth the $7.2 M that he's going to earn next year and the $36 M for 4 years after that.


82games.com's "fair salary" for Crawford this season was $6.4 million. His actual salary was $6.5 million.

He'll likely continue to be paid commensurate to his production through the end of his deal, unless you think he's absolutely peaked as a player.


----------



## jbulls

ScottMay said:


> 82games.com's "fair salary" for Crawford this season was $6.4 million. His actual salary was $6.5 million.
> 
> He'll likely continue to be paid commensurate to his production through the end of his deal, unless you think he's absolutely peaked as a player.


The dollar amounts go up a lot in the coming seasons. I think when all is said and done that deal will have proven to be a little too rich.


----------



## TRUTHHURTS

McBulls said:


> Bottom line is that I don't think the Bulls (or anyone else for that matter) would trade a second round draft choice for Crawford this summer (taking on his contract in the process). He's just not worth the $7.2 M that he's going to earn next year and the $36 M for 4 years after that.



I have a feeling that there are plenty of teams that would take Crawford off the knicks hands for a second round pick after the way so many good teams are devoid of guards who can create their own offense as well as be a spot up shooter. The new new rules dictate versatility and the ability to break people down off the dribble as a must in the new nba and Crawford can do that.

didnt see scottmays post


----------



## McBulls

TRUTHHURTS said:


> I have a feeling that there are plenty of teams that would take Crawford off the knicks hands for a second round pick after the way so many good teams are devoid of guards who can create their own offense as well as be a spot up shooter. The new new rules dictate versatility and the ability to break people down off the dribble as a must in the new nba and Crawford can do that.



Teams that are over the cap would find that his salary put them into luxury tax territory. Teams that are under the cap would find that his salary ate up a good fraction of their cap space. In reality the former teams would, of course have to give a player up in return to get Crawford, while the latter would in effect be giving up the opportunity to recuit some free agent at the same price. On top of that they would have to give up a second round pick.

Right now New York has too many guards, and it will be mostly guards that are available to them late in this years draft. So they have an incentive to trade away one of their guards if they can. I'm sure Jamal is, or soon will be, on the market, since Francis and Marbury are essentially untradable and Robinson won't fetch much in return. Problem is that no-one will give anything for Crawford. 

So look for him to stay in NY for quite some time, even if all the Knicks essentially ask in return from a team under the cap (e.g., Atlanta, Charlotte, Toronto) is a second round pick.


----------



## Da Grinch

McBulls said:


> Teams that are over the cap would find that his salary put them into luxury tax territory. Teams that are under the cap would find that his salary ate up a good fraction of their cap space. In reality the former teams would, of course have to give a player up in return to get Crawford, while the latter would in effect be giving up the opportunity to recuit some free agent at the same price. On top of that they would have to give up a second round pick.
> 
> Right now New York has too many guards, and it will be mostly guards that are available to them late in this years draft. So they have an incentive to trade away one of their guards if they can. I'm sure Jamal is, or soon will be, on the market, since Francis and Marbury are essentially untradable and Robinson won't fetch much in return. Problem is that no-one will give anything for Crawford.
> 
> So look for him to stay in NY for quite some time, even if all the Knicks essentially ask in return from a team under the cap (e.g., Atlanta, Charlotte, Toronto) is a second round pick.


thats like saying no one would take the 1st pick in the draft because their salary is 4 mil. a year. its silly , he's a good player who produces on scale with what he is paid. they dont want to trade crawford anyway in fact they released today he is 1 of the 6 players they intend to build around along with curry butler nate frye and david lee.


----------



## McBulls

Da Grinch said:


> thats like saying no one would take the 1st pick in the draft because their salary is 4 mil. a year. its silly , he's a good player who produces on scale with what he is paid. they dont want to trade crawford anyway in fact they released today he is 1 of the 6 players they intend to build around along with curry butler nate frye and david lee.


What else are they going to build around? That has to be the weakest core in the NBA -- OK, second weakest after Portland, maybe.


----------



## such sweet thunder

ScottMay said:


> This whole situation represents a perfect storm we'll probably never witness again -- an egomaniac head coach who signed a deal knowing he really didn't want the job, then essentially sabotaged his team to force his firing; a wildly incompetent, egomaniac GM who will throw anything and anyone under the bus to escape accountability; and an egomaniac, painfully inept CEO who should be a case study for the dangers of nepotism.



It's the end of an era. I'm tearing up.


----------



## Sixerfanforlife

As a Sixers fan, let me tell you guys, this is truly a funny episode of stupidity, that you should be thankful for watching up close.


----------



## GB

> In Dolan's first public appearance since his blues band played a club a few blocks from the Garden on June 1 while Brown twisted in the wind, the Knicks owner is expected to detail the biggest reason his former coach allegedly violated his contract - unauthorized trade discussions with other teams.
> 
> The Knicks can document at least a dozen cases in which Brown spoke to other teams, making trade offers Thomas did not know of. The Knicks believe that undermined Thomas' stature and bargaining power.
> 
> One source said Brown once made an offer to an assistant GM while Thomas made a different one the same day to the GM of the same team.
> 
> The Knicks have low expectations in winning their arbitration case, as commissioner David Stern will decide whether to withhold any of the $40 million due Brown. Dolan, who flew out of his meeting with Brown in a rage Thursday, saying "I'm not paying him," also will be asked to explain whether he regrets letting Brown dangle for 40 days before firing him.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/dolan_to_sing__a_mea_culpa_knicks_marc_berman.htm



> Brown is upset that the Knicks waited two months to fire him. The Hall of Fame coach believes that the club had decided to fire him after the season, but instead required him to conduct workouts for draft prospects and attend the predraft camp in Orlando.
> 
> According to sources, Dolan is upset with Brown for burying both Jalen Rose and Steve Francis on the bench after Brown endorsed acquiring both players prior to the February trade deadline. Sources close to Brown claim that while he wanted Rose, he never was in favor of bringing in Francis, who was playing for his third team in two years.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/430021p-362533c.html


----------



## mizenkay

at Dolan's press conference today he should announce the team is moving to "Port Charles", the fictional home of long running soap opera _General Hospital_. either there, or "Lanview".

Erica Kane could ***** slap some sense into him.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=gallo/060626



> Headlines ...
> New Knicks' coach disappointed to discover his roster is terrible


:laugh:


----------



## narek

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=gallo/060626
> 
> 
> 
> :laugh:



That'll happen for real sometime late this year.


----------



## such sweet thunder

I know I've expressed this before, but it needs to be said again:


----------



## GB

> Last Thursday, James L. Dolan, the Knicks' owner and the Madison Square Garden chairman, fired Coach Larry Brown after a disastrous, deflating and, at times, comical season. Thomas, the team president since December 2003, was named Brown's replacement.
> 
> What Dolan did not announce then, but did yesterday in a meeting with reporters, is that Thomas's job — both of his jobs — are on the line. His deadline for making "significant progress" is next spring.
> 
> "This is his team, he made this bed," Dolan said during an hourlong interview with reporters who regularly cover the team. "At this time next year, Isiah will be with us if we can all sit here and say that this team has made significant progress toward its goal of eventually becoming an N.B.A. championship team. If we can't say that, then Isiah will not be here. I say that with him right here."
> --
> Continuing with Brown was untenable, based on disclosures Dolan made for the first time yesterday, the most dramatic of which was that Brown wanted to waive several players. The group, according to team officials, included Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Jerome James, Jalen Rose and Maurice Taylor. Doing so would have cost the Knicks $150 million in salaries, in addition to an equal amount in luxury taxes.
> 
> "He knew that wasn't possible," Dolan said.
> 
> Brown admitted late in the season that he had lost many of his players, and he publicly called for a dramatic roster overhaul. But Brown knew that their hefty contracts made some of those players' untradable.
> 
> So Brown proposed cutting them. Because that, too, would be impossible, Dolan concluded, he said, "that Larry never intended to coach this team beyond this season."
> 
> Dolan added, "What he's really saying to us is, 'I'm going to make you fire me.' "
> --
> "We couldn't get Larry to focus on his job," Dolan said. "Larry wanted to focus on Isiah's job."


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/27/sports/basketball/27knicks.html


----------



## ScottMay

This Times article does a nice job of summarizing yesterday's unprecedented press conference/interview with Dolan and Isiah, during which Dolan gave Isiah one year to turn the team around.

Once Brown had lost all his players and done what he could to sabotage the season, he actually asked Isiah and Dolan to WAIVE a third of the Knicks' active roster. 



> Continuing with Brown was untenable, based on disclosures Dolan made for the first time yesterday, the most dramatic of which was that Brown wanted to waive several players. *The group, according to team officials, included Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Jerome James, Jalen Rose and Maurice Taylor.* Doing so would have cost the Knicks $150 million in salaries, in addition to an equal amount in luxury taxes.


More great stuff here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/27/sports/basketball/27knicks.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

The unspoken goal for Thomas seems to be a .500 record, according to the various media reports.

EDIT: Whoops! Didn't see GB's post. Sorry about that.


----------



## McBulls

ScottMay said:


> The unspoken goal for Thomas seems to be a .500 record, according to the various media reports.


Even if Thomas manages to reduce the chaos in the backcourt, the only way the Knicks have a chance at a .500 record is if their young bigs somehow become all they can be next year. Isiah would not be my choice of a coach to shape Fry, Curry and Butler into effective inside defenders and rebounders. But you never know...

A more likely scenario is that Thomas will feature his young players in the rotation, including this year's draftees. Nate Robinson, Frye, Lee et al, will be fun to watch, but there's not enough talent to win many games and the lack of inside defense will worsen if Malik Rose & Mo Taylor have reduced playing time.


----------



## GB

They're asking almost a 20 game improvement. Think about that.



> "It should be progress, not debatable progress," Dolan said. "I'm not going to put a number on that. Isiah has the full season to do this. It's his ship to steer. It's his ship to crash."
> 
> Dolan smiled. A glassy-eyed Thomas didn't.
> 
> Thomas was nearly speechless when asked about the one-year edict.


nypost.com



> How do we even know if they accidentally stumble into telling the truth?
> 
> For instance, how do we know Brown demanded six Knicks be cut outright at the cost of $180 million, as Dolan and Thomas claim?
> 
> Obviously, we're well aware of Larry's loathing of Stephon Marbury, and there's no way they could've co-existed.
> 
> OK, that's a $58M hit! Find me one rational NBA demi-expert other than Dolan, Thomas and Steve Mills who says the Knicks would be better off without Brown than Marbury?
> 
> That leaves $122M. Who else did Brown want paid off? Jerome James? OK, that's another $24M. Again, not a single soul outside of the above brain drain would argue with that deletion, either.
> 
> Who else? Steve Francis? Jalen Rose? Maurice Taylor? Maybe Quentin Richardson? Maybe Malik Rose? Did Brown want four of those five rerouted out of New York? Of course, he did. The thought of coaching them any more or any less than last season was repugnant. For the most part, their emphasis is on scoring, not rebounding, defending and running the floor.
> 
> Still, Dolan and Thomas can't convince me Brown demanded them waived before the Knicks break camp in October.
> 
> Why? Brown knows as well as I do that each of those players, exempting Malik Rose, perhaps, is exceedingly tradable. George Karl had interest last season in Francis and Richardson (his Nuggets continue to crave outside shooting), whereas the expiring contracts of Jalen Rose and Taylor are certified assets.
> 
> In other words, it's easy for Dolan and Thomas to make whatever claims they want about Brown, what he supposedly did and didn't do, when he's in no position to open his mouth and defend himself at this time due to pending contract arbitration.
> --
> I have it on good authority Stern did not agree in advance to be the arbitrator of any contract dispute between the Knicks and Brown. Meaning, he's under no obligation to be one because he was not party to the contract.
> --
> Last summer the Knicks hired Brown for $50M and gave him five years to turn around the team. It's interesting that Dolan has so little faith in Thomas that he's only giving him one year of Brown's remaining four to get the job done.


Vecsey @ nypost.com


----------



## ScottMay

McBulls said:


> the lack of inside defense will worsen if Malik Rose & Mo Taylor have reduced playing time.


If all Isiah does is to permanently bench Taylor and Rose, he'll immediately make the Knicks a much better defensive and offensive team. 

You want to see some horrendous numbers, check these out:

http://www.82games.com/0506/05NYK14C.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0506/05NYK13C.HTM


----------



## GB

> "This is his team," Dolan said about Thomas. "He made this bed. There is nobody better than him to make this thing go forward but he has to do that. And he has one year, one season to do that. At this time next year Isiah will be with us if we can all sit here and say this team has made significant progress toward its goal of eventually becoming an NBA championship team. If we can't say that, then Isiah will not be here."
> 
> Which means one thing: You've got to root for another terrible season.
> 
> Sure, the Bulls might get Greg Oden out of it, as they get to flip-flop No. 1 picks with the Knicks in 2007, just one more reason the Eddy Curry deal will ultimately be Isiah's undoing.
> --
> Timeout. What are we thinking? Dolan's still going to be in charge, even if he fires Isiah next May.
> 
> But that's wishful thinking, because it's all set up for Thomas to get 35-37 wins. He doesn't even need to get any players in tomorrow's draft to get 12-14 more wins out of the same team that quit on Brown. He'll get the progress that has to be "evident" to Dolan by doing what Brown refused to do.
> 
> Isiah will play to his players' strengths. He'll let 'em run, shoot and worry about the defense...some other day. Now that he knows his job is on the line, he won't have 42 different starting lineups. He'll go with a set rotation and hope Stephon Marbury stays healthy and returns to All-Star status. He'll try to play like the Suns, even if he doesn't have the talent. He won't utter a peep against his players to the media and they won't revolt.
> --
> And when the Knicks win their 36 games, or whatever it is, it's all going to be a mirage.


lupica @ nydailynews.com


----------



## such sweet thunder

I think the improvement mandate bodes well for the Bulls be gifted a high draft selection next summer. Stability begets success. The last thing the Knicks needs is a coach is willing to sacrifice development for short term results. This team just isn't that talented either, I wonder if James Naismith could coach them to the playoffs next year. 

Good for us, I suppose. More drama to follow.


----------



## GB

> "Commissioner Stern has agreed to accept jurisdiction over any dispute that may arise under the employment contract," said Tim Frank, the N.B.A.'s vice president for basketball communications.
> 
> When the hearing is held, Brown will be represented by one of the nation's most powerful law firms — the Washington-based Williams & Connolly.
> 
> The firm represented President Clinton during his impeachment proceedings, and a number of major political figures. The firm defended Mike Tyson during his rape trial and has also represented Andre Agassi, Boomer Esiason and Patrick Ewing.
> 
> Under terms of the arbitration, Stern can award or deny Brown his full contract, or choose any dollar amount between zero and $40 million. His decision is binding.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/28/sports/basketball/28knicks.html

Has a bio of Stern ever been written?


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/knicks.htm

June 29, 2006 -- The first of several "Fire Isiah" chants at the surly Garden Theatre occurred at 7:15 p.m. last night - 15 minutes before commissioner David Stern took the podium to start the NBA Draft. 
That gave way to massive booing when Knicks coach/president Isiah Thomas passed up on projected lottery pick, UConn point guard Marcus Williams, to take unsung, 6-8 Renaldo Balkman, a junior defensive, shot-blocking small forward from South Carolina. Balkman was the NIT MVP, a tournament won by the two-time champion Gamecocks at the Garden. Balkman was a second-round projection and certainly would have been there at 29. Thomas said he heard the Suns were going to take Balkman with the next pick had the Knicks not swiped him up. 

This was a need draft and Thomas obviously felt there's too many point guards on the roster already. They were looking for defense and a small forward and Memphis' Shawne Williams was gone, at 17 to Indiana. 

With the fans in a frenzy again before their 29th pick, the Knicks drafted another defender, Temple senior 6-5 guard Mardy Collins, who can defend both guard positions and has been compared to Aaron McKie. 

Balkman was such an unknown that he wasn't in the media draft guide. A Knicks PR official came into the press room at their Westchester facility with a DVD highlight tape of the dreadlocked Balkman - whom some say is a "poor man's Dennis Rodman." 

Balkman was considered the best player at the Orlando pre-draft camp and the dreadlocked 21-year-old could be one of the role players the Knicks have talked about needing. Isiah Thomas didn't want to risk Balkman not being there at 29, as they view him as a high-energy defender who will fit in with their three rookies from last season. The pick drew mock comments from the ESPN broadcast crew. 

"We have a lot of offense," Thomas said. "We wanted defense to come out of this draft." 

With Williams dropping like a rock, the Garden fans were loudly chanting "Marcus-Williams" when the Knicks came up at 20. Boos filled the arena when Stern announced the bizarre selection that was repeatedly mocked by the ESPN crew on hand. Balkman averaged 9.6 points, 6.3 rebounds and 1.3 blocks and 1.7 steals. 

When the Nets took Williams at 22, fans wearing Knick jerseys chanted "Let's go Nets." 

After working out for the Knicks last month, Balkman said, "Just having the opportunity to work out for a guy like Coach [Larry] Brown is like a childhood dream come true." Now Brown's gone. 

Balkman, after his workout, sounded juiced by playing here. 

"I know the streets of New York and I loved playing at the Garden," Balkman said. "Man, that place was magic." 

"This is a very rowdy crowd," said Stern, as he got to the podium to start the festivities. Stern will rule on the Larry Brown debacle. Quickly, "Dolan [bleeps]" chants rang out. 

The Bulls had the Knicks' second overall pick and their selection created quite a stir. When the Bulls came to bat at No. 2, the fans chanted, "Where's our draft pick?" As Stern was about to announce the pick, a fan yelled, "Eddy Curry." The Bulls took LaMarcus Aldridge but traded him for Brown favorite Tyrus Thomas, whom the former Knicks coach considered the No. 1 pick in the draft. 

The Web site group selltheknicks.com staged a Manhattan protest march from 46th street and 9th avenue to the Garden and got a police escort. About 25 people started the march and by the end there were about 40, chanting loudly the whole way. The most popular march chants were "Duck Folan" and "Fire Isiah." Dolan was off in Atlantic City for a blues gig last night) 

ESPN's Page 2 Web site, which is known for its spoofs, ran a series of doctored pictures of Thomas. Thomas was shown next to a giant soda can, endorsing the doomed New Coke. He was also pictured in Clinton's Oval Office, telling the former President the new intern will be here soon delivering him his pizza. And finally, he's shown standing next to Ryan Leaf on the podium holding up a jersey - the biggest bust in NFL Draft. 

The Knicks were holded up in their Westchester bunker, their war room switched from 2 Penn Plaza.


----------



## narek

Stern seemed amused by the crowd chants last night. It sure was fun to hear the "Sell the Team" and "fire Isiah" chants. Nothing but pressure.


----------



## such sweet thunder

"I would've traded our second pick for Curry," Thomas said. 

yes you would have. how about the option to switch next years draft pick, as well?


----------



## McBulls

such sweet thunder said:


> "I would've traded our second pick for Curry," Thomas said.
> 
> yes you would have. how about the option to switch next years draft pick, as well?


Let's see if he says the same thing next spring. I have a feeling that if he can't he'll be unemployed.

My bet is that he'll be unemployed.


----------



## GB

> The Knicks won just 23 games last season, and their two draft picks — forward Renaldo Balkman and guard Mardy Collins — are not expected to make a major impact. Yet Thomas, the man with two job titles and a one-year ultimatum, said he was satisfied with his team.
> 
> "If we have to open the season today, I'm pretty comfortable with what we have," Thomas said Thursday, after the Knicks introduced their two rookies.
> --
> So the summer agenda, as Thomas vaguely outlined it Thursday, is a conservative one.
> 
> He would not commit to spending the team's midlevel exception (about $5 million) or its biannual exception ($1.75 million). He specifically ruled out pursuing the two best point guards on the market, Mike James and Speedy Claxton. He said the Knicks would be opportunistic, but not necessarily aggressive. He said they would not necessarily use their two expiring contracts (for Maurice Taylor and Jalen Rose) to make expensive trades.


nytimes.com


----------



## narek

And things get weirder - the Blackman pick, the one that Zeke made because the Suns were interested in Blackman:



> June 30, 2006 -- When Isiah Thomas defended his decision to nab defensive South Carolina small-forward defensive specialist Renaldo Balkman at 20 instead of waiting for 29, he said his "due diligence" discovered the Suns were going to take him at either 21 or 27.
> Sherlock Holmes, Isiah is not. Three sources, including one inside the Suns organization, told The Post yesterday Phoenix was not taking Balkman in the first round and that's not why they traded their picks. One league source who spoke to a Suns official said if Balkman was available at 45, they would have passed.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/blight__early_knicks_marc_berman.htm

*snerk*


----------



## GB

> A person familiar with Brown's hour-long meeting with the Garden's top-ranked officials last week revealed that Dolan had become angry when Brown informed him that the Knicks do not have the personnel to be a consistent winner.
> --
> Thomas questioned Brown's use of backup center Jackie Butler over James, the lumbering big man whom Thomas signed to a $30 million contract. The front office felt that Butler was playing because he was represented by Keith Glass, the son of Brown's agent, Joe Glass.


http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/14898602.htm


----------



## SALO

narek said:


> And things get weirder - the Blackman pick, the one that Zeke made because the Suns were interested in Blackman:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When Isiah Thomas defended his decision to nab defensive South Carolina small-forward defensive specialist Renaldo Balkman at 20 instead of waiting for 29, he said his "*due diligence*" discovered the Suns were going to take him at either 21 or 27.
> 
> Sherlock Holmes, Isiah is not. Three sources, including one inside the Suns organization, told The Post yesterday Phoenix was not taking Balkman in the first round and that's not why they traded their picks. One league source who spoke to a Suns official said if Balkman was available at 45, they would have passed.
Click to expand...

 :rofl:


----------



## GB

> Renaldo Balkman's South Carolina coach, Dave Odom, was as stunned as anyone by the controversial selection of his player by the Knicks with the 20th pick in Wednesday's NBA Draft.
> --
> Odom said he's concerned how Balkman will defend quicker small forwards on the perimeter and how he'll fit into halfcourt sets on offense. Balkman played power forward at South Carolina, which won the past two NITs at the Garden.
> 
> "He hasn't played a lot of one-on-one defense; he was our post defender, so it's something he has to work on," Odom said. "I was very honest with [Isiah]. Isiah will you tell you, I didn't blow him up. I'm very proud of him but I really do think he's a work in progress."
> 
> Though Balkman was NIT MVP at the Garden in March, blocking six shots in the final, he was benched 12 games last season.
> 
> "Looking over his career, every third game was a great game," Odom said. "But two of the three have been OK, sometimes not OK. Consistency has been a problem. He has to discipline himself to bring his best every night, and he'll be a very good player."
> 
> Odom said Balkman's biggest strength is grabbing defensive rebounds and dribbling out on the break. Though Thomas plans for the Knicks to be high-tempo, most possessions are halfcourt sets where Balkman's decision-making, passing and shot-making are suspect, according to Odom.
> 
> "At his size, he's got to play on the perimeter in the NBA," Odom said. "He's not going to make a living playing with his back to the basket. He's got to work on catching the ball on the perimeter and making plays. That's not something he's done a lot of. Most championship games are decided at the halfcourt level. That would be an area he'll need to work on."


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/old_coach_balks_knicks_marc_berman.htm


----------



## GB

> Thanks to my friend Randy for pointing out an incredible item in today's New York Post (it's in the column called "The Rumble" which doesn't appear to be online).
> 
> The Post quotes Greg Anthony speaking on a Sirius satellite radio's Mike & Murray show. He points out that both Knick first-round picks--the infamous Renaldo Balkman and Mardy Collins, are clients of agent Leon Rose.
> --
> (You'll see Balkman's agent identified as Andre Buck. Buck works for Rose.)
> 
> Anthony suggests that it's possible Isiah Thomas reached for some Rose clients in the hopes that Rose might feel indebted if/when LeBron James becomes a free agent. "This could have been legwork that was laid potentially for a run at LeBron James," The Post quotes Anthony saying on Sirius.
> 
> It may be a little far fetched. I can't imagine what the Knicks could do to get in a salary cap position to sign a major free agent any time soon.


http://www.truehoop.com/2006-draft-27586-greg-anthonys-renaldo-balkman-conspiracy-theory.html


----------



## GB

> Channing Frye, Nate Robinson and David Lee, last season's three rookies who regressed under Brown's watch, unloaded on the former Knicks coach for being too negative, too inconsistent with roles, and for taking the "joy" out of basketball.
> 
> The slogan here is "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas," but the sentiments aired in Sin City yesterday will serve as the theme for next season. Knicks players had been under a gag order - until now.
> 
> Frye, Robinson and Lee acted absolutely bubbly about the coaching change to Isiah Thomas, portraying him as dishing out more positive feedback in four days of summer-league practice than Brown gave them during their 23-59 disaster. The Knicks open their five-game summer-league schedule tomorrow vs. Cleveland.
> 
> Frye called last season "a giant circus."
> 
> "I was excited for a change," Frye said. "I felt it's going to give us a new chance on the game and bring some positivity.
> 
> "It's not even comparable," Frye said of the new environment. "It's positive reinforcement. Everything is so positive. Isiah's doing a great job. We're rewarding players when they make effort plays. Everyone's excited to come to the gym."
> --
> Brown feuded openly with Robinson, saying he was more "highlight reel than point guard" and demeaned the 5-9 sparkplug for showboating.
> 
> "Coach Brown is so old-school," Robinson said. "He wants everything done just like this, not getting the crowd involved. Isiah wants everyone to have fun.
> 
> "At first he (Brown) was trying to take my joy [away] - don't do this, don't do that. At the same time I had people in my corner saying, 'Don't ever change who you are. You got here by being who you are. By being Nate Robinson.' "
> 
> Robinson said he is much less confused running Thomas' sets.
> 
> "I'm trying to do everything [Larry] asked me, but everything I ask you do to, it's not good enough," Robinson said. "We were butting heads. It's like, all right, Coach, you asked me to do this yesterday and today you're asking me not to do it."


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/all_fall_brown_knicks_marc_berman.htm


----------



## paxman

aw, see now, i'm so pissed that they canned larry brown.
next year's entertainment has been reduced heavily.


----------



## such sweet thunder

"It's not even comparable," Frye said of the new environment. "It's positive reinforcement. Everything is so positive. Isiah's doing a great job. We're rewarding players when they make effort plays. Everyone's excited to come to the gym." 

I love quotes like this. The Knicks will be better next season, but lets see if Frye is as bubbly in the dog-days after the all-star break. Everything is so postive. Now.


----------



## Dre

such sweet thunder said:


> "It's not even comparable," Frye said of the new environment. "It's positive reinforcement. Everything is so positive. Isiah's doing a great job. We're rewarding players when they make effort plays. Everyone's excited to come to the gym."
> 
> I love quotes like this. The Knicks will be better next season, but lets see if Frye is as bubbly in the dog-days after the all-star break. Everything is so postive. Now.


 Of course, it's the offseason. He makes it sound like they're getting lollipops for setting picks or something.

Frye is too young to know this I guess (I'm younger than him though, wierd), but Brown was too used to coaching good teams to use positive reinforcement. He views effort plays as a necessity, not a plus.


----------



## Frankensteiner

such sweet thunder said:


> "It's not even comparable," Frye said of the new environment. "It's positive reinforcement. Everything is so positive. Isiah's doing a great job. We're rewarding players when they make effort plays. Everyone's excited to come to the gym."
> 
> I love quotes like this. The Knicks will be better next season, but lets see if Frye is as bubbly in the dog-days after the all-star break. Everything is so postive. Now.


You hear this about every new coach. Crawford said Lenny Wilkens was the best coach he ever had. Curry said the same about Brown. Problem for Isiah Thomas is he's still coaching Crawford and Curry. And he's still Isiah Thomas.


----------



## GB

> if the Knicks are going to blame Brown for everything, then they could be in big trouble.
> 
> Players developed bad habits last season - *not lacing up their sneakers for practice, showing up for training camp out of shape, showing up to work with a hangover, freelancing on the court* - and bad habits aren't easy to break. Even with a new coach.
> 
> Thomas says he wants his players to fall in love again with basketball. He also needs them to be held accountable, act professionally, play hard and win.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/433158p-364952c.html

At least one of those is Eddy Curry. But who showed up hungover??


----------



## badfish

GB said:


> http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/433158p-364952c.html
> 
> At least one of those is Eddy Curry. But who showed up hungover??


Jerome James did after New Year's Eve. Got suspended for conduct detrimental to the team (1 game).


----------



## draft tyrus

GB said:


> http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/433158p-364952c.html
> 
> At least one of those is Eddy Curry. But who showed up hungover??


in order: Jamal, Eddy, Jamal, Jamal


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1

draft tyrus said:


> Jamal


Word is he has a siiiikkkkk, ankle-breaking hangover.


----------



## badfish

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Word is he has a siiiikkkkk, ankle-breaking hangover.


pwned.


----------



## GB

> There is genuine affection between Marbury and Thomas, a bond that Wilkens struggled to establish and that Brown never hoped to have. Thomas and Marbury have been close ever since Thomas, as team president, traded for Marbury two years ago. They are next-door neighbors in Westchester County and confidants on matters both personal and professional.
> --
> His relationship with Marbury is a delicate subject.
> 
> As open as both men are about their friendship, that closeness has at times appeared to be a source of tension for other players. Rather than be an asset now, it could potentially create divisions with Thomas joining the locker room.
> --
> Speaking of Marbury, Thomas said: "I've told him I love him, but I mean, we've had some very hard conversations..."
> --
> "I think players need to have one-on-one relationship with the coach," he said.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/sports/basketball/09knicks.html


----------



## Sham

The Knicks will win more games next year purely because they're enjoying themselves more. This, I believe.


----------



## GB

Sham said:


> The Knicks will win more games next year purely because they're enjoying themselves more. This, I believe.





> Thomas has said he will use a consistent 9- or 10-man rotation. Marbury also looks forward to starting alongside Francis in what he called "a devastating backcourt" — if the two guards can strike a balance in controlling the offense.


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/10/sports/basketball/10knicks.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


----------



## Sham

I didn't say they'd be good. :raised_ey


----------



## narek

Sham said:


> The Knicks will win more games next year purely because they're enjoying themselves more. This, I believe.


They're going to have issues. Thomas does favor Marbury and that's what'll start everything. A coach is a boss first, friend second. You have to separate the boss part from the friend part and that's a very tough thing to do in a corporate environment, let alone a sports team environment, unless everyone involved is mature enough to recognize the difference. 

What's going to happen when Marbury starts jacking up 50 shots a game? There's been stories the Suns traded him because Marion and another player couldn't stand to be on the same court with him.


----------



## Sham

Marbury, when freelancing an dplaying inefficiently, does at least help a team win a game. And besides, he'll be gone very very soon. His two and a haf years are up.


----------



## GB

narek said:


> They're going to have issues. Thomas does favor Marbury and that's what'll start everything. A coach is a boss first, friend second. You have to separate the boss part from the friend part and that's a very tough thing to do in a corporate environment, let alone a sports team environment, unless everyone involved is mature enough to recognize the difference.
> 
> What's going to happen when Marbury starts jacking up 50 shots a game? There's been stories the Suns traded him because Marion and another player couldn't stand to be on the same court with him.


Nate Robinson will be the 50 shot jacker.


----------



## GB

> When the 5-9 Robinson flew in on a breakway during the summer-league opener Friday, bounced the ball in the air, caught it above the rim and slammed it down, Thomas could not have been more excited. Brown would have been appalled.
> 
> "If any of us were his size and could do the stuff that he does, hell, you want to try it," said Thomas, whose Knicks faced Ron Artest's Kings in a summer-league game late last night at UNLV. "What's the sense of having it if you can't use it? Now, we don't want him to use it and it costs us a game, but . . . "
> 
> That's an interesting "but." The energetic Robinson has free rein under Thomas, but is that necessarily a good thing? *Thomas believes showboat plays enhance the Knicks product.*


Barf.



> Isiah's views could conflict with the sensibilities of Knicks fans, who want a winner. New York has the most sophisticated basketball fans in the league.


GAG!

http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/nate_show_a_go_knicks_marc_berman.htm


----------



## GB

> Isiah Thomas said basketball is show business and that players like Robinson have a "responsibility" to entertain.
> --
> While Brown's methods cost him his own job, there is no denying that he's had an impact on a Knick who will play an important role this season. NBA coaches noticed Robinson's maturation, with several saying he went from being out of control to, according to Indiana's Rick Carlisle, "a player we couldn't guard."


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/434134p-365751c.html


----------



## ScottMay

narek said:


> What's going to happen when Marbury starts jacking up 50 shots a game?


There are a lot of problems with Marbury's game, most of them probably unfixable. He doesn't like to play defense, he doesn't like to lead, and the only max-level player in the league who bails more quickly when the chips are down is Rashard Lewis.

But he isn't really a shot-jacker. In his own greedy, stats-mongering way, he probably values an assist more than a made basket.

His career shot-per-assist ratio is 2.04. Kirk Hinrich's is 1.98.


----------



## GB

> An NBA source said Isiah Thomas had a conversation recently with Denver about Kenyon Martin but is completely turned off because the Nuggets only want expiring contracts, unwilling to take back a big contract such as Steve Francis'. Thomas wants no part of adding another $70 million in payroll unless he can shed Francis' or Jerome James' pacts.



nypost.com


----------



## GB

> Isiah Thomas is exploring the possibility of reacquiring Trevor Ariza, a player Larry Brown referred to as "delusional."
> 
> Signing Ariza, a restricted free agent, appears to be a longshot, since Thomas drafted swingman Renaldo Balkman in the first round and has him under contract for three years. Ariza is a similar player - athletic forward with limited offensive skills. The Orlando Magic has the option to match any offer made to Ariza, 21, who is looking to make $3 million per season.
> 
> Thomas does have a soft spot for Ariza, who is the first player he drafted with the Knicks. The Knicks traded Ariza and Penny Hardaway to Orlando last February for Steve Francis. Ariza appeared in 21 games with the Magic and played well, averaging 4.7 points and 3.9 rebounds. He scored in double figures four times.
> 
> Ariza's agent, David Lee, told Florida Today that his client is "a jump shot away from being an All-Star."


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/434353p-365958c.html


----------



## Ron Cey

Isiah's ****ty-ness as a GM never ceases to amaze me. 

Gee, Zeke, maybe you should've just kept the guy instead of trading him and a valuable expiring contract for the only guard in the NBA with a worse, harder to move contract than Marbury's.

He's so bad that its almost unfair to the rest of the league when he deals with teams like Phoenix, Chicago and Orlando. All of which he has directly aided in improving significantly.


----------



## Da Grinch

narek said:


> They're going to have issues. Thomas does favor Marbury and that's what'll start everything. A coach is a boss first, friend second. You have to separate the boss part from the friend part and that's a very tough thing to do in a corporate environment, let alone a sports team environment, unless everyone involved is mature enough to recognize the difference.
> 
> What's going to happen when Marbury starts jacking up 50 shots a game? There's been stories the Suns traded him because Marion and another player couldn't stand to be on the same court with him.



i dont know that IT has favored marbury at all, for one he has not yet coached marbury and as GM its his job to build the team around his best players of which marbury is the best player on the roster.

I look at Thomas' moves and think if he is favoring any player its Jamal crawford whom he has seemingly sought out guys with connections to him.

Curry and AD were former teammates of JC, AD was traded for j.rose
nate was a high school teammate and one of his best friends
jerome james played ball in the summertime with crawford while crawford worked out with sonics in the offseason, they were friends before IT signed him
jalen is simply jamal's role model and the guy whom crawford decided to follow to michigan and of course a former teammate in bullsland.
Qrich played ball in hoops the gym with JC and is of course pretty close to curry so i am sure he knew JC well before thomas traded for him.

i look at the knicks roster and i see no one i can link to marbury in such ways, in fact not so long ago JC was mentioned as a core member of the team along with frye curry nate lee and butler ...and when marbury was mentioned IT said the team will be in its prime in a few years and at 29 he doesn't know what the future holds for marbury.


add to that IT has said recently his best friend on the team is jalen, not stephon.


----------



## GB

> As Isiah Thomas and the Knicks' summer-league team frolic in Las Vegas, Larry Brown spent the last three days at his home in East Hampton, playing golf with his UNC mentor Dean Smith, trying to get cheered up.
> 
> "I'm trying to get over this, but it is as bad as it gets," Brown told The Post. "You can't get over this stuff. I still have to take care of my family and do what's best for them. We do have some decisions to make as a family."
> 
> Brown admits to being down in the dumps, in limbo, with no clue about his future.
> --
> "It's not unexpected," Brown said of the digs.
> 
> Taking the high road, Brown added, "I have nothing more to say. Let the process take care of itself. It doesn't help me by saying anything. It's not going to win the Knicks any more games."
> 
> Brown reiterated he won't be coaching next season. "I'm hanging with my kids, wife, trying to get on with my life," Brown said. "I don't see coaching, not for the foreseeable future, maybe ever."
> 
> Nobody believes Brown is done, though his wife, Shelly, hopes that's the case.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/larrys_on_deans_list_knicks_marc_berman.htm
[/quote]


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## paxman

:boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: 
:boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: 
:boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo: :boohoo:


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## GB

> "Eddy has a great chance to become an All-Star in this offense. That's my job as a coach."
> 
> Thomas said he turned big men Jermaine O'Neal and *Brad Miller* into All-Star caliber players in Indiana.
> 
> "It's not the onus on Eddy Curry," Thomas said. "It's the onus on me to get the most out of him."
> 
> The Knicks finished at 4-1 - already the signs of Thomas' high-tempo offense being on display.
> 
> "It's definitely fun to implement a new style," Thomas said. "It's an offense that starts with rebounding the basketball. It's a full-court offense."
> 
> It's an offense speedy first-rounder Renaldo Balkman fits in well. His forte is grabbing a rebound and dribbling out of the pack to ignite a fastbreak, which he did twice yesterday. Selected with the 20th pick over point guard Marcus Williams, Balkman finished with eight points on 4-of-4 shooting, with four rebounds and three steals in 20 minutes.


nypost.com


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## Sham

Eddy Curry promised (promised) to work out with the Knicks summer league team.

Then didn't.

Ruh-roh!


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## such sweet thunder

I hate to do this but, link?

I want to see the article.


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## GB

such sweet thunder said:


> I hare to do this but, link?
> 
> I wan't to see the article.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/curry_is_key_knicks_marc_berman.htm


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## GB

> Because of a clerical error on Butler's offer sheet, the Knicks have until Thursday, instead of tomorrow, to make their decision.
> 
> That's eight days to realize matching the offer is fiscal insanity. Butler would cost the Knicks $14 million, including luxury tax. The Knicks plan to make San Antonio wait until Thursday to announce their decision.
> 
> Nobody from the Knicks has even contacted Butler or his agent, Keith Glass, since the offer sheet was presented last Wednesday. Butler elected to skip summer league, so the Knicks have no idea what kind of shape he's even in.
> 
> The Knicks already have two centers in Eddy Curry and Jerome James, and are counting heavily on both of those big investments.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/knicks_butler_deadline_extended_knicks_marc_berman.htm



> One player who continues to draw interest from the Knicks is Washington forward Jared Jeffries, a restricted free agent. According to sources, the Knicks have had conversations with Jeffries' agent, Andy Miller, in recent days as negotiations between Jeffries and the Wizards have stalled. Jeffries is considering accepting Washington's one-year qualifying offer for approximately $3 million, which would make him an unrestricted free agent next summer.
> 
> Miller, who also represents free agent forward Al Harrington, did not return phone calls yesterday.
> 
> The Knicks can offer Jeffries their mid-level exception, starting at approximately $5.2 million. The Knicks are reluctant to add salary, but the 6-11 Jeffries, who can play four positions, would give the team a versatile player who is regarded as a strong defender. The 24-year-old Jeffries averaged 6.4 points and 4.9 rebounds in 77 games last season.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/436006p-367370c.html


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## TomBoerwinkle#1

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nba/story/9672015/rss

NEW YORK -- A federal agency found probable cause to believe a hostile work environment existed at Madison Square Garden, where a former Knicks executive claims she was sexually harassed by New York coach Isiah Thomas. 

The treatment of senior Knicks executive Anucha Browne Sanders was not an isolated incident, and included "severe and pervasive verbal sexual harassment," according to the findings released Tuesday by the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. 

Sanders, the Knicks' former senior vice president of marketing and business operations before her dismissal in January, contends she was fired "for telling the truth" while going through internal channels to stop the harassment. 

The EEOC determined there was enough evidence to believe the Garden violated the Civil Rights Act, and that senior management "was aware of the harassment but failed to address it effectively." 


The process is not a verdict, but a prerequisite to pursuing such a case in federal court. 

MSG downplayed the EEOC's findings in a statement: "We obviously disagree with the EEOC's determination, though it is not an uncommon outcome for this type of preliminary administrative review." 

Kevin Mintzer, Browne Sanders' attorney, said the finding has an impact because it comes from an outside agency. 

"The determination speaks for itself," Mintzer said. "The Garden can say things about it and I can say things, but this is really an independent finding, which speaks for itself." 

Thomas' defense attorney, Peter Parcher, stressed that the EEOC is "not a court of law." 

"In a court of law, Isiah Thomas will be given an opportunity to face his accuser, cross-examine all witnesses and present evidence to demonstrate the allegations are without merit," Parcher said in a statement. 

Browne Sanders has accused Thomas of telling her he was "very attracted" to her and "in love" with her and tried to kiss her. 

Thomas filed court papers last month denying he sexually harassed Browne Sanders, acknowledging that he once touched her shoulder, and may have even tried to kiss her on the cheek, but did nothing wrong. The Garden said Browne Sanders' firing was for legitimate business reasons


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## paxman

isiah thomess


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## McBulls

> A rumour that former Raptors general manager Glen Grunwald may be on his way to the Big Apple is not just pie in the sky.
> 
> There have been reports that New York Knicks president/head coach Isiah Thomas is after Grunwald, who is CEO and president of the Toronto Board of Trade, to accept a front office position with the laughing-stock NBA team.
> 
> Yesterday, Glen Stone, public affairs manager at the Board of Trade, confirmed that the Knicks have indeed contacted Grunwald about the possibility of joining the New York team, but have yet to make a formal/written offer.
> 
> Grunwald and Thomas go way back to their days as college roommates at Indiana University.
> 
> Grunwald took over as GM of the Raptors when Thomas was let go back in 1997. Grunwald lost his gig with the Raps in 2004.
> 
> 
> 
> The rumour circulating yesterday was the Grunwald would not leave the Board of Trade unless the Knicks threw truckload lot of money at him and, at the same time, allowed him to remain in Toronto for extended periods of time, even during the basketball season, as he has a young family and is not eager to uproot at this point.
> 
> Grunwald has, in fact, turned down some NBA jobs since leaving the Raptors because he didn't want to leave the Toronto area.
> 
> He became a Canadian citizen in 2001.


more at the link 

IT is looking for friends to put in the front office who might wait awhile to fire him.
Guess Grunwald is willing to take Dolan's money, as long as he doesn't have to do much.

Here's hoping IT keeps the job for at least a few more months -- just enough to screw up the season.


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## johnston797

McBulls said:


> Here's hoping IT keeps the job for at least a few more months -- just enough to screw up the season.


IT is guarenteed his job until the all-star break. Unless this harrassment thing takes a crazy turn. 

personally, i think IT as coach is worst case scenerio for us. There is no coach out there that would have as much of a WIN NOW mentality.


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## McBulls

johnston797 said:


> IT is guarenteed his job until the all-star break. Unless this harrassment thing takes a crazy turn.
> 
> personally, i think IT as coach is worst case scenerio for us. There is no coach out there that would have as much of a WIN NOW mentality.


I don't think he can be objective enough to engage in a WIN NOW strategy. A win now mentality would probably mean reducing the playing time of most of the young players on the team that IT is so proud of and increasing the playing time of players like Malik Rose, Jalen Rose and Mo Tayor. He'd have to restrict Curry's playing time and increase Mo Taylor's minutes. Reduce Richardson's time and play Jalen more. The rookies and Nate would not see the floor. All of these things would be embarrassing to his performance as a GM. 

In addition, the harrassment thing looks like it just took a crazy turn. 

Even if IT is theoretically somehow a better coach for this group than LB, he's going to be pretty distracted during the next few months with the harrassment suit. A new coach brought in now would have the entire training camp to put his system in order. If IT is fired in January, he'll probably be replaced with an interim coach who has little incentive or ability to change things significantly. So I hope IT can hold on for a few more months.


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## ScottMay

McBulls said:


> I don't think he can be objective enough to engage in a WIN NOW strategy. A win now mentality would probably mean reducing the playing time of most of the young players on the team that IT is so proud of and increasing the playing time of players like Malik Rose, Jalen Rose and Mo Tayor. He'd have to restrict Curry's playing time and increase Mo Taylor's minutes. Reduce Richardson's time and play Jalen more. The rookies and Nate would not see the floor. All of these things would be embarrassing to his performance as a GM.


I can't vouch for Isiah's objectivity, or whether he prefers his younger players to his veterans, but if he wants to win ballgames, you've got it exactly backwards: he'd actually be a lot better off playing the younger guys and benching the Roses and Taylor altogether. Those three and Antonio Davis simply stunk up the joint last year:

http://www.82games.com/0506/0506NYK.HTM


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## johnston797

ScottMay said:


> I can't vouch for Isiah's objectivity, or whether he prefers his younger players to his veterans, but if he wants to win ballgames, you've got it exactly backwards: he'd actually be a lot better off playing the younger guys and benching the Roses and Taylor altogether. Those three and Antonio Davis simply stunk up the joint last year:
> 
> http://www.82games.com/0506/0506NYK.HTM


co-sign.


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## McBulls

ScottMay said:


> I can't vouch for Isiah's objectivity, or whether he prefers his younger players to his veterans, but if he wants to win ballgames, you've got it exactly backwards: he'd actually be a lot better off playing the younger guys and benching the Roses and Taylor altogether. Those three and Antonio Davis simply stunk up the joint last year:
> 
> http://www.82games.com/0506/0506NYK.HTM


My faith in 82 games ratings is near zero. Quoting them carries no weight with me.


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## ScottMay

McBulls said:


> My faith in 82 games ratings is near zero. Quoting them carries no weight with me.


You're certainly well within your rights to feel that way, although imo it's unfortunate.

I have to ask, though: do you dispute the statistical evidence that the Knicks were a worse team with the Roses and Taylor on the floor vs. off, and that those three players were absolutely destroyed all season long by their counterparts, or do you acknowledge that these things happened but believe it doesn't have any impact on wins and losses?


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## McBulls

ScottMay said:


> You're certainly well within your rights to feel that way, although imo it's unfortunate.
> 
> I have to ask, though: do you dispute the statistical evidence that the Knicks were a worse team with the Roses and Taylor on the floor vs. off, and that those three players were absolutely destroyed all season long by their counterparts, or do you acknowledge that these things happened but believe it doesn't have any impact on wins and losses?


Like I said, I don't put much faith in +/- stats. There's too much that can go wrong with them, and they can clearly be misleading. The Roland ratings simply compound the errors.

In the Knicks games I watched (which was about half) Malik Rose, Taylor and Davis were the frontline players who played the best defense (of admittedly a bad lot). Curry was a bit better defensively than he was with the Bulls, but all-in-all he still stinks. IMO defense and team play wins games in the NBA. Showboating, poor teamwork and matador defense loses games.

I didn't see as much of Jalen Rose, but I suspect that he hasn't improved much defensively. I included him because he is a savvy veteran who still knows how to play the offensive end of the floor if he's inspired. All in all, if I needed to win a game, I'd kick my old friend in the butt and hope he plays both ends of the floor. In any case, he's better than Q.

BTW I really hope you're right, and IT feels the need to play his two rookies this fall. Low first round draft pick rookies are a very good bet to make plenty of mistakes, get no mercy from refs, and basically need to be carried by the rest of the team. If they turn out to be good, you'll have to wait till the all-star break till they get familiar with the plays & their teamates and get respect from the refs. By that time most hit the rookie wall.


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## GB

> According to a filing by the Knick’s parent company Cablevision, Larry Brown is seeking more than $52 million from the Knicks. Included in that total is the remaining $41 million owed on his contract, and an additional $12 million for what is being called “liquidated damages”.
> --
> its believed the commissioner will hear the complaint next week.
> --
> Sources close to the Knicks say they knew they would be paying Brown out on his deal when they fired him, but that James Dolan refused to cash Larry out on his own accord, rather wants to paint this as the Knicks being forced to pay out Brown.


http://www.hoopsworld.com/article_18742.shtml


----------

