# What they bring to the table.



## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

2004 NBA draft prospects:


Emeka Okafor: If he was not a amazing shot blocker he probably would not even be a lottery selection. But he is a amazing shot blocker, probably one of the best shot blockers to come into the NBA in 5-8 years. Amazing anticipation skills, very sound overall athlete and really showed a lot of heart with his Final Four performance. Will obviously be the #1 pick. He is not a no doubt All Star but his defensive ability makes him a very rare commodity.


Dwight Howard: Very skill and solid in all areas, not overly flashy with his play but he is very solid and productive. And honestly, Dwight Howard has so much character as a human being, even if he only averages 10 points 10 rebounds a game in the league, his character and community involvement will be a great asset to any organization.


Luol Deng: Wonderful ball handler, not a great athlete or a great shooter but he is great at handling the basketball and creating shots. Good size and strength for a SF and has good length as well. He will be a top 5 pick without question. 


Ben Gordon: Amazing shooter and scorer, is a wiry athlete that is not super strong but he is quick and knows how to put the ball in the basket from all over the court. He is almost like a less athletic and explosive version of Allen Iverson. Both thin skinny SG’s really that have a wonderful ability to score.


Devin Harris: I do not like him as most do. He is a fine defender, very good scorer and solid overall athlete with good size and is a great competitor. He could be a solid consistent player at PG but I do not think he will be a super star and is worth a top 10 selection. The potential is there, I am just not sure if he will fulfill that potential.


Andre Iguodala: One of the best overall athletes in the draft. Has amazing arm length and reach, can handle the basketball, rebound, pass and defend. A complete player and if he improves his shooting and defensive consistency and intensity we could be looking at a player similar to Scottie Pippen. Has a ton of potential and has the talent to be a top 5
pick.


Josh Smith: Jaw dropping athletic ability for a 6-8 SF. He can just fly and he actually players and looks bigger than 6-8. He is a very good slasher in the lane and has a improving jump shot as well, Smith should be a top 10 selection no doubt about it.


Jameer Nelson: Consistent proven playmaker. In terms of pure PG ability Nelson is without question the best PG. Only question is his height but he is built stocky and has good quickness that will makeup for it. Nelson is a good leader and a solid floor general, I would only potentially take one other true PG over Nelson in this draft.


JR Smith: Still some what rough around the edges but he has the ability to be a amazing NBA player. Wonderful athlete, can dunk with anyone and jump as high as anyone. Explosive player going to the hoop and that is not all. Has probably as good of range on his jumpshot as anyone, even if he is straight out of high school. Is a true gun slinger and if he can improve his defense and ball handling he will be a great one.


Sebastian Telfair: Could be a great NBA player, has a uncanny court sense for his age and if he comes out and gets drafted high he will be the best PG to even be picked that high straight out of high school. Has proven himself since the age of 14 against the best competition. Has great composure and ball handling skills. When he gets settled into the league and just runs a team the way everyone knows he can he will be something else.


Luke Jackson: Very solid player and will be a very solid selection. Has a great jump shot from 3 point and from short range. He can handle the basketball pretty well and is not a horrible athlete for defender, he is built very solid. Jackson is a perfect match for a NBA SF in todays game.


Robert Swift: On athletic ability alone he will be a 1st round pick. Is a very aggressive player, agile and knows how to move well for a 7-0. With the recent success of Dalembert and Elson as smaller 240-250 centers Swift should do just fine in that mold in the NBA.


Al Jefferson: Is a true tank down low and possibly could be one of the most dominant low post scorers in this years draft. Just knows how to get the ball in the hoop down low. Has a good back to the basket game and very good size and strength to go along with it. Reminds me a Zach Randolph with his wide size and good ball handling skills and post skills.


Kris Humphries: Is one of the best offensive players in the post in this years draft. He can just produce from down low and from outside. He has a nice jump shot, has shown the ability to take the ball strong to the basket and can score facing up downlow as well. Is really built well, almost like a NFL TE. He only question is if he is a tweener but in terms of skill, athletic ability, and potential Kris is right up with the best big men in the draft. Potentially Aldridge, Jefferson, Howard, Biedrins and Varejao might be picked over him but I would not be surprised if he is just as good as those players.


Kirk Synder: Wonderful player, I love his game. He is intense, passionate, aggressive and assertive. Is a solid defender, has good feet, quick hands and knows how to defend and defend well. He very good range on his jump shot and is very dangerous from out there. The only question mark is his handle because he already has the size to be a NBA 2 or 3. He reminds me of Jarvis Hayes with more defensive ability andathleticism but and offensive consistency.


Josh Childress: Overall he is a very solid offensive player. Knows how to post up and play away from the basket and has a good handle as well. He a great ability to rebound the basketball as a guard or a foward. Really has a knack for doing that and getting loose balls. The only question mark is if he can play SG or SF because really he should play SF but might be to small.


Romain Sato: A lot of people forget about him as a prospect for some reason. He is a amazing athlete, very long arms and has the potential to be a very good defender. He nice range on his jump shot, he is a passionate player and is a solid slasher as well. If he falls into the 2nd round someone could have a real steal.


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## sov82 (Nov 5, 2003)

*wow...*

Going to bed so I only had time to read your comments on the two UCONN players.

Defensive only players don't go #1

Ben Gordon is anything but thin and wiry.

Wow...


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## thekid (Apr 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Romain Sato: A lot of people forget about him as a prospect for some reason. He is a amazing athlete, very long arms and has the potential to be a very good defender. He nice range on his jump shot, he is a passionate player and is a solid slasher as well. If he falls into the 2nd round someone could have a real steal.


I'd agree, even thought there are many mocks which project him as a second rounder, he has the potential to be a good NBA player. Gordon IMO ends up as a top 3 player from this draft.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

I like most of Ozzy's comments and I wonder why people like J.R. Smith and Luke Jackson are going against Kirk Snyder. The knock is the jumpshot but he has excellent form and good range, like a less-crazy Ricky Davis.


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## jericho (Jul 12, 2002)

*Re: wow...*



> Originally posted by <b>sov82</b>!
> 
> Defensive only players don't go #1



Generally I think you're right, but there have been some exceptions. When Hakeem Olajuwon and Kenyon Martin were drafted, they were viewed as by far more skilled defensively. Their offensive repertoire caught up over time.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

Nice post by OZZY, I enjoyed it.  5-star


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> Ben Gordon is anything but thin and wiry.


 What you think that is a diss or something? Allen Iverson is thin and has wiry strength. What a 175-180 PG/SG is not skinny? To me anyone under 200 pounds is pretty thin and Ben Gordon does not have a Marbury type build, and he doesn't need one.

Also it is a fact, if Emeka could not block shots the way he can he would not be the #1 pick, that is a simple fact. Rebounding he is solid, offensive he is solid, athletically he is solid but his shot blocking ability is ridiculous. Take that away from him he is just another PF prospect.


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## jdg (Jun 13, 2003)

*Re: wow...*



> Originally posted by <b>sov82</b>!
> Defensive only players don't go #1


I don't understand how people still look at Okafor as a defense only player. Ozzy hit the nail on the heqad by saying he is solid everywhere and exceptional at shot blocker, and that is why he is going #1 overall.

After Okafor's freshman year, he was a defense only prospect. After his sophomore year he was a mostly defense prospect with enough offensive ability to get by. But now I view him as a major defensive threat with a nice offensive game that is just gonna grow.

I've heard that Okafor has studied other UConn player offensive games extensively in order to understand better how to block opposing players shots. Don't think that that study didn't help him with his offense as well.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

I know you only listed a few but I'm surprised you left out 2 HUGE ones in Shaun Livingston who will go in the top 5 (even though I think that's too high) and Dorrell Wright.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

I have never seen Donell Wright play so I do not know what his potential is like.

Shaun Livingston I think will be a huge bust, people get all hyper because he is a 6-7 PG but you do remember he is boarderline 175-180. Now that is ridiculously small and I doubt he will ever reach 195. I question his overall athletic ability as well and his defensive ability and quickness at that size. I just don't think that much of him, maybe I am wrong but a skinny, not super athletic 6-7 PG in the NBA? That doesn't sound that good.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> I have never seen Donell Wright play so I do not know what his potential is like.
> 
> Shaun Livingston I think will be a huge bust, people get all hyper because he is a 6-7 PG but you do remember he is boarderline 175-180. Now that is ridiculously small and I doubt he will ever reach 195. I question his overall athletic ability as well and his defensive ability and quickness at that size. I just don't think that much of him, maybe I am wrong but a skinny, not super athletic 6-7 PG in the NBA? That doesn't sound that good.


From your post, I'm not sure you've seen Livingston play either...

His athletic ability isn't Josh Smith, but he's much more athletic than given credit for, in fact I think people that have actually seen him play would say the same. Defensively, he's 6'7, even if he were so so defensively, with that length he could be an all-defensive player one day just from moving his feet.

It doesn't matter what board I go onto here, the only knock I hear in regards to this kid is his weight.

If that's the only thing that's wrong, well then you know this kid is a player.

Being the PG he doesn't have to be a banger like Darko, who had to beef up himself, look at Tayshaun Prince, Reggie Miller, Jamal Crawford, a host of others are good players and don't have Boozer bodies...

Kid will be a top 5 pick and if the scouts end up knocking him for anything, his weight would be the last thing to hurt his draft status...


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## sov82 (Nov 5, 2003)

*Most places*

While I haven't seen BG step on a scale, most places have BG at 200lbs. Seeing him play in person numerous times, he really is anything but thin. Many 'informed' personalities have commented that BG has 'a body that would make a tri-athalon athelete jealous' and 'if Ben wasn't playing basketball, he would be an all american tail back'. While he didn't get the pub Emeka got, Ben is a notriously hard worker. In fact, Emeka worked harder on his game because of Ben. 

You are right. If Emeka wasn't such a solid defensive player, he wouldn't go number 1. However, he will go 1 or 2 because he is such a great defensive player and has offensive upside. Just like Hakeem & Martin.

Good concept on the post though.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> His athletic ability isn't Josh Smith, but he's much more athletic than given credit for, in fact I think people that have actually seen him play would say the same. Defensively, he's 6'7, even if he were so so defensively, with that length he could be an all-defensive player one day just from moving his feet.


 Ok I will tell you right now that will never happen and he will never be on any all defensive teams in the NBA. Do you realize that little Sebastian Telfair is the same weight almost as 6-7 Shaun Livingston. I have not seen him play a ton but from what I have seen is not a great athlete, and he needs to be at that weight. He can run the PG pretty well but honestly big PG's do not work out that much. Jamal Crawford for one is not a big PG like most think, Kirk plays PG for that team, Crawford is a SG. And really no really true tall skinny PG has played great in this league. Just look at Reece Gaines, oh look a tall PG, well he had a horrible season and did not do a thing on Orlando. Ron Harper, he played well at PG but that was because he was a great defender and really did not need to play true PG.

Shaun Livingston is talented and all but I don't like his demeanor on the court, he athletic ability or his offensive ability and I have questions to if he is a NBA athlete.


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## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Ok I will tell you right now that will never happen and he will never be on any all defensive teams in the NBA. Do you realize that little Sebastian Telfair is the same weight almost as 6-7 Shaun Livingston. I have not seen him play a ton but from what I have seen is not a great athlete, and he needs to be at that weight. He can run the PG pretty well but honestly big PG's do not work out that much. Jamal Crawford for one is not a big PG like most think, Kirk plays PG for that team, Crawford is a SG. And really no really true tall skinny PG has played great in this league. Just look at Reece Gaines, oh look a tall PG, well he had a horrible season and did not do a thing on Orlando. Ron Harper, he played well at PG but that was because he was a great defender and really did not need to play true PG.
> 
> Shaun Livingston is talented and all but I don't like his demeanor on the court, he athletic ability or his offensive ability and I have questions to if he is a NBA athlete.


I think he'll have a similar build to Tayshaun Prince when it's all said and done. Not built by any means, but not weak either. Prince is a very solid defensive player at the wing, and I can see Livingston being that same type of player, that's why he'd thrive playing next to a combo guard, so they can guard the PG's on defense. But Shaun definetly has the potential to be a great defender one day. About Shaun's athleticism, he's not a great athlete, but he's above average, people really underrated his athelticism and quickness. 

About him not being able to be a full time PG in the league, I am totally confident he will be. He is a true PG. Not a Jamal Crawford, not a Reece Gaines, not a Ron Harper. The knack on him will always be that he can't defend PG's, but that all depends on what team he goes to, and a majority of the teams in the league have a guy that can move over the the 2 spot on offense and take care of the pg on defense. 

It'll take Shaun a few years to be a starter, but I think he can play backup PG from day one, and be effective at it. I think he'll be at worst a very good role player.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> I think he'll have a similar build to Tayshaun Prince when it's all said and done. Not built by any means, but not weak either. Prince is a very solid defensive player at the wing, and I can see Livingston being that same type of player, that's why he'd thrive playing next to a combo guard, so they can guard the PG's on defense. But Shaun definetly has the potential to be a great defender one day. About Shaun's athleticism, he's not a great athlete, but he's above average, people really underrated his athelticism and quickness.


 That would be great if he turns out to be a awesome player that can run the PG at 6-7, create mismatches and dominate the game. But I seriously doubt that will happen, he is not athletically gifted enough and is not overly skilled at handling, passing, shooting or defending.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Shaun Livingston I think will be a huge bust, people get all hyper because he is a 6-7 PG but you do remember he is boarderline 175-180. Now that is ridiculously small and I doubt he will ever reach 195. I question his overall athletic ability as well and his defensive ability and quickness at that size. I just don't think that much of him, maybe I am wrong but a skinny, not super athletic 6-7 PG in the NBA? That doesn't sound that good.


i pretty much completely agree with this. i just can't see livingston being a good pro. the one player i think of everytime i see shaun livingston is cedric bozeman from ucla. that may just be a size comparison but bozeman was supposed to be a great pg prospect going into college, and hasn't even been a great player in college. i think the smaller quick pgs in the nba will be able to blow by livingston just like they would any other 6-7 guy that isn't an insane athlete.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Strange, I get hell for saying some foreign big men are ridiculously overrated and I proved it. Yet no one says boo about what I said here.

Please do.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

I think there are only 3 potential allstar players in this draft. 

Okafor,Deng,and Howard. 

This whole draft is full of role players. Some of these players would be better served going to the better teams towards the end of the 1st rd where they won't have the pressure on them to produce. 


Ben Gordon- is a low budget Steve Francis without his hops. Won't be that good a player. caught in combo world.

Harris- Cat Mobley type player with the right team he could be okay in a couple years.

Jefferson- we agree Ozzy here has alot of that Randolph type feel for the game.

Telfair- will be a bust is a product of NY hype not athletic enough or strong enough can't shoot. 

Nelson- disagree with his play making ability,he's more scorer than distributor, doesn't shoot it well but finds the gaps to score,will be solid nothing special.

JR Smith -Major project because of size and lack of ball handiling will take 4 years to understand pro game. 

Josh Smith -because of size if coachable will help on the defensive end can shoot it. project also. 

Luke Jackson- Very high on him ,will be one of the best 3 Rookies in the league next season, very polished understands the game good athlete much tougher than people think . Lottery teams would be wise to take him after 5th or 6th overall will help a team next season immediatly. 

Kirk Snyder- won't make it in the NBA wasted pick in rd 1.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> Telfair- will be a bust is a product of NY hype not athletic enough or strong enough can't shoot.


 He will not be a bust. One he is athletic enough, he is quicker than you think and two he can shoot. Same old song every year, this player can't shoot, well shooting is the easiest thing to learn, just look at LeBron James the played that "can't shoot".



> JR Smith -Major project because of size and lack of ball handiling will take 4 years to understand pro game.


 Sure he is a major project but he could turn into a major super star in this league. Why is his size bad? He has prefect size for a SG and handling/defense is the only thing he needs to work on.



> Josh Smith -because of size if coachable will help on the defensive end can shoot it. project also.


 I think you underrated his athletic ability, at 6-8 he is a wonderful athlete can could be a fine SF. Obviously a high schooler is a project but Josh Smith could be a great player.



> Kirk Snyder- won't make it in the NBA wasted pick in rd 1.


 Why won't he make it in the NBA? What teams don't need athletic strong SG's that can defend? Sure he does not have great handles but he can rebound, pass, defend and shoot the three. What else do you want? No way this kid will be a bust.



> Luke Jackson- Very high on him ,will be one of the best 3 Rookies in the league next season, very polished understands the game good athlete much tougher than people think . Lottery teams would be wise to take him after 5th or 6th overall will help a team next season immediatly.


 Ok he is good but not that good. Very solid player but he will never be picked in the lottery.



And this is without foreign prospects though. A few of those I am sure have All Star potential I assume as well.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> He will not be a bust. One he is athletic enough, he is quicker than you think and two he can shoot. Same old song every year, this player can't shoot, well shooting is the easiest thing to learn, just look at LeBron James the played that "can't shoot".
> 
> Sure he is a major project but he could turn into a major super star in this league. Why is his size bad? He has prefect size for a SG and handling/defense is the only thing he needs to work on.
> ...



Ozzy you are overrating these guys there aren't that many Stars in any draft let alone this one. 

JR Smith can't handle the ballm so exactly how is he supposed to become a superstar. I think with work he could become jason richardson like but he's no superstar either. 

I actually like josh smith because he's a freak of an athlete and seems to have that mean streak but he too can't handle the ball and doesn't really seem to umderstand the game all that well. 

This draft is just a trendy thing. Because of lebron and Carmelo the young player has come back into style everyone wants the higschoolers again. Just like after Gasol the next couple drafts people went crazy for young tall Euro's. Just like the Highschool thing in 2001 with brown, Chandler and Curry people didn't want to touch highschoolers for the next season. 

Telfair is no different prospect to me than Omar Cook was, good passer bad shooter not much athletically and very short. 

I didn't say Jackson was gonna be great just that if a team wanted to really help there team next season Jackson as a lottery pick makes sense. He's gonna be better for someone next season than livingston, or Josh Smith will be. 

Bad teams need to improve rather than always taking projects because most of the coaches who draft projects will be fired before those guys ever pan out. 

And carmelo and Lebron weren't projects. But none of these highschool cats are in their league as prospects. 

Deep draft full of role guys. 

Calling Igudola Pippen like is a ridiculous strectch. he's not even close from a skill standpoint.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> Calling Igudola Pippen like is a ridiculous strectch. he's not even close from a skill standpoint.


 From a defensive standpoint, from a potential standpoint, from a athletic standpoint and from a height and length standpoint he is!





> Telfair is no different prospect to me than Omar Cook was, good passer bad shooter not much athletically and very short.


 I disagree totally, Omar Cook did look like a great prospect but he is not as quick or as athletic as Telfair. You do realize that there has never been a PG at that age that has been that consistently productive? And Omar's passion and work ethic was questionable, Telfair is just more passionate, competitive and is a harder worker from what I can see.



> And carmelo and Lebron weren't projects. But none of these highschool cats are in their league as prospects.


Of course they are not, players like that probably won't come into the league for another 5 years. But Smith, Jefferson, Telfair, Howard, Smith, Swift, Aldridge, Wright all have very good potential and overally they are a really talented class of high school players. No it is not just a fad that they will be picked, they will be picked because they can all play and have great potential.




> JR Smith can't handle the ballm so exactly how is he supposed to become a superstar. I think with work he could become jason richardson like but he's no superstar either.


 The thing I like about him is that he can flat out shoot the rock from deep, and combine that with great athletic ability his handle is the only thing in question. But even without the handle he can still shoot the basketball.


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## Kezersoze (Mar 3, 2004)

WOW Just Looked up Omar Cooks Profile and man.. it sounds just like Telfair, "Has supreme strength and quickness". I heard Telfair is a gym rat though so that will definitely help him out. so is Telfair just a shorter Cook with a better work ethic? both are even from Brooklyn.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> From a defensive standpoint, from a potential standpoint, from a athletic standpoint and from a height and length standpoint he is!
> 
> 
> ...



When I think Igudola I think Desmond Mason .I've seen him play in college many times and never did Pippen come to mind.Pippen was like a pg he controlled the ball and the tempo the Bulls played at. Igudola just doesn't seem to have anywhere close the same feel. 

I really think Telfair has gotten Buzz for always playing older competition and for being Seph's cousin. He isn't Steph doesn't have his court speed or hops. 

Being a gym rat helps but if he's not shooting then what is he doing. Gym Rats are almost always good shooters. This kid isn't and against stronger defense I don't see him getting off quality shots. I think he and Omar Cook are almost just alike. 

Its the reason I think he's making the jump because if he goes to school he loses all the interest and hype and slips way down in the draft.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> When I think Igudola I think Desmond Mason .I've seen him play in college many times and never did Pippen come to mind.Pippen was like a pg he controlled the ball and the tempo the Bulls played at. Igudola just doesn't seem to have anywhere close the same feel.


 Well I consider getting 3 or 4 triple doubles in one college season controlling the game, I don't know about you.



> Being a gym rat helps but if he's not shooting then what is he doing. Gym Rats are almost always good shooters. This kid isn't and against stronger defense I don't see him getting off quality shots. I think he and Omar Cook are almost just alike.


 I just think Telfair has more swagger and leadership ability, Cook did not have that kind of drive or on the court leadership. I believe Teflair does.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Well I consider getting 3 or 4 triple doubles in one college season controlling the game, I don't know about you.
> 
> I just think Telfair has more swagger and leadership ability, Cook did not have that kind of drive or on the court leadership. I believe Teflair does.


Swagger maybe leadership I'd sure like to see this kid leading solid vets.

Igudola is a good prospect but Pippen like these comparisons are getting out of hand. 

Not a big Pippen fan but there hasn't been a player in the league thats done what Pippen did in his prime since him. You gotta have extraordinary feel for the game. Iguodola has a ways to go for that.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> Not a big Pippen fan but there hasn't been a player in the league thats done what Pippen did in his prime since him. You gotta have extraordinary feel for the game. Iguodola has a ways to go for that.


 All I am talking about is potential, I am not thinking what is, I am thinking what could be.

In terms of height, length, athletic ability and overall skills they are some what similar.


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## bhndthbck (May 20, 2004)

OZZY ---That would be great if he (livingston) turns out to be a awesome player that can run the PG at 6-7, create mismatches and dominate the game. But I seriously doubt that will happen, he is not athletically gifted enough and is not overly skilled at handling, passing, shooting or defending.


Damn Oz what else is there, he sounds like a jr. high reject. not the NBA players camp MVP, ABCD camp co-Mvp, 2 time state champ, Ill player of the year, and lots of other stuff i forgot about.
I've been reading this board for a while and when i saw this I couldn't let it go by.


When you said didn't like his court demeanor, not sure what you mean by that. If you mean he doesn't score alot, yes he isn't looking to score on every possesion and deferred to other players (less skilled) on his teams to often but as those players get better so will his value as an unselfish player.
I can buy the fact that his 3 point jumper is a mystery, even to him but he has a solid pull up from 12-15 and can get there to use it.
But to say his is not overly skilled at handling AND passing tells me you only saw him in the 2 televised all star games or you don't know what are talking about regardless of your billion posts. His court vision and ability to get the ball to the open man in scoring postion is as good as or better than anyone in the draft. And there is no one in the draft as unselfish.
As for defending, thats harder to judge. But he is much better than i have been reading here. 
Will he dominate? probably not but he is worth the gamble, and a whole lot better than the PGs (shooters in disguise) available.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> But I seriously doubt that will happen, he is not athletically gifted enough and is not overly skilled at handling, passing, shooting or defending.


 If you can read closely I said he is not "overly" skilled at those things. His ball handling is ok, not great by any means. He can not go anywhere he wants to on the court and that is a problem. Just because he gets assists does not mean he can pass, he is ok at passing but overly good at it? No LeBron was really skilled at passing, Livingston does not have anything close to his ability to pass the ball. Shooting, we all know about that and defending, people say his "length" will do it but if you don't have a defensive mindset you can not just become a great defender out of the blue.

It would be awesome if this kid was great, but I don't think he will be. And it is irrelevant what awards he won in high school, I bet Lenny Cook, DeAngelo Collins and Leon Smith also won awards like that.



> But to say his is not overly skilled at handling AND passing tells me you only saw him in the 2 televised all star games or you don't know what are talking about regardless of your billion posts.


 Yes that is all I saw of him. But so what. It kind of strikes me weird when he can not dominate a All Star game where no defense is played. He played against the best competition in high school as seniors and he did not look that good at all. Maybe he had a bad game. But even so, I could have still saw his handles, court vision and athletic ability, but he does not have any. He is a average athlete, with alright handling ability and ok passing ability. Great? No way. Maybe if this kid was a amazing athlete I could see him being great but he is just a average athlete with a very average build.

At best he will be a solid consistent PG that runs a team pretty well but I would not be surprised if Teflair, Gordon or Nelson turn out better than him.

As for court demeanor, I can not explain that to you, its just a sense I have, maybe its totally wrong but I do not get that sense with Livingston. There is something about how he carries himself, from what little I saw I did not like his body language.


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## bhndthbck (May 20, 2004)

To make too much of anyones performance in 2 all star circuses, where you play a quarter and sit a quarter, no team play is allowed and defense is only thought of, is not prudent. But it is all you have to go on, so I can somewhat understand your thoughts. You have to see more of him to really get just how much better he makes his teammates. He won't dazzle you with scoring but he can get his team open looks just by what he does to move the defense. And yes, he is close to LeBron in his passing ability, but light years from him in other areas.

I have had the opportunity to see many of his games (most very good , few clunkers) and go to the ABCD camp in NJ last year (awesome, go if you get the chance) where he bested all the best small quick PG's head to head in real games with real defense (yeah Telfair too), beat them of the dribble and defended well. At the ABCD all star game, the crowds biggest roars were reserved for Shaun's amazing passes in traffic, oh and Big babys dancing too.

And yes i did see Cooks name on the abcd mvp banner last year, Smith might have been there too, i can't remember but it also had LeBron Kobe McDyess and many more hits on it than misses. 

And finally it's hard to argue against that which can't be explained (I gave that up soon after I had my first girlfriend) so I'll leave you with your opinion and knowing you will be able to watch and enjoy Shaun next year as I have, where ever he plays.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Yeah I saw the same things Ozzy. When you only get to see these guys a few times, you don't really pay much attention to the stats. You look at how they carry themselves on the court, decision making...you look for the little special things...and something about Livingston seemed off. I will be shocked if he can do better than Jamal Crawford has done so far(Jamal's been very good too, but he's constantly had to struggle with coaches who haven't given his game the free reign that it needs to prosper...I see Livingston having the same problems...)

By contrast, Telfair was the opposite. He was just oozing maturity, and charisma. Telfair looked very cerebral in the all-star games. He concentrated on dictating the flow of the game rather than his stats, and that's something that is astounding for any point guard at any level. I think Telfair has what it takes upstairs to be a very special player. I actually liked his play at the Hoops Summit where a lot say he bombed, because again, there he was controlling the game. Players that can control a game without scoring are VERY rare. And Telfair seems like he can be one of those.

As far as Omar Cook...People forget, Cook could have been a very good player, but he is/was wasted potential. He didn't want to be great so he never put in the work needed to stay in the league and become the player he could have been. He really was quite the headcase. Even in College.

Cook's biggest weakness, is Telfair's biggest strength. So I don't consider that a valid comparison.

At worst Telfair will be Tinsley...but that's not even a bad word anymore, Tinsley is really finally starting to come around as a player.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

I am still some what shocked at the character of Dwight Howard. What his purpose as a athlete is, that should be the mold every athlete follows. His community involvment in the league is going to be amazing and really when you take away all the games and titles and stats that is really what it is all about. Helping those in need and making people happy.

Like I say again, with Dwight Howard's character as a person, I would take him on my team any day even if he only averaged 10 points 10 rebounds a game or less.


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## Kezersoze (Mar 3, 2004)

who is the best overall athlete in the draft including college players? lol


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> who is the best overall athlete in the draft including college players?
> lol


This is some what off topic but since three of the best athletes in the draft are
from high school.

Andre Iguodala
Josh Smith 
JR Smith
Robert Swift
Romain Sato
Rickey Paulding


To a lesser extend

Emeka Okafor
Ben Gordon 
Devin Harris


And I have not seen Donell Wright play so I can't comment.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

I'm not convinced that Swift is that athletic. Hopefully we will get some combines results.

Really like your post, but...

Livingston, while I agree he is a bust candidate for most of the reasons you suggest, I do think he has amazing handles and passing ability. But in the NBA he will be too slow, too weak. 

And both he and Telfair will be too confused. For a couple of years, anyway.

I see Telfair as TJ Ford without 2 years of college. If he can learn as much in 2 years on an NBA bench as Ford did in 2 years starting in Texas, he will be a good player in 2007.

Al Jeffferson will be better than Zach Randolph, and better than Amare. He has unbelievable shot-blocking skills, and a complete package of post-up moves. Already passes out of the double team much better than Amare. Had a 66pt game last year...


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> Al Jeffferson will be better than Zach Randolph, and better than Amare. He has unbelievable shot-blocking skills, and a complete package of post-up moves. Already passes out of the double team much better than Amare. Had a 66pt game last year...


 That will not happen, Amare averaged 13 points and 7 some rebounds a game his first year in the Association. Al Jefferson will not be that productive for awhile. And in terms of straight out athletic ability Al Jefferson is not even close to Amare. There is a reason Amare was such a high pick.

I like Al Jefferson but he is not better than Amare.


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## Kezersoze (Mar 3, 2004)

If Marvin Williams was coming out would he be going ahead of Josh/Dorell/J.R?


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> If Marvin Williams was coming out would he be going ahead of Josh/Dorell/J.R?


 No. I hope he is that amazing of player for UNC's sake, but I doubt he is that good, if he was he would have came out.


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