# Lebron takes out an ad to thank....



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Akron. Not Cleveland. Doesn't mention Cleveland at all. Just Akron. Is it anymore clear now than ever that he never identified with Cleveland as his hometown, and purposefully many times went out of his way to make that fact apparent.

I think he may actually resent Cleveland. City rivalries in the house.

Anyways:
http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/08/lebron_james_takes_out_an_ad_t.html
""To My Family, Friends and Fans in Akron:
"For all my life, I have lived in Akron -- and for that, I am truly a lucky man.
"It was here where I first learned how to play basketball, and where I met the people who would become my lifelong friends and mentors. Their guidance, encouragement and support will always be with me.
"Akron is my home, and the central focus of my life. It's where I started, and it's where I will always come back to. You can be sure that I will continue to do everything I can for this city, which is so important to my family and me. Thank you for your love and support. You mean everything to me.""


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

What a ****ing dick head.

Why the need to spit in Clevelands face?


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Bad PR move by LBJ. Who has been giving Bron his advice ? My god, he needs' to fire them, and find somebody else.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Big Z with his own ad to thank Cleveland...


----------



## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

probably did this because he felt he was obliged to, since Z did it and he didn't. i think he's going to learn from his mistakes with the media.

then again, he didn't even thank the cavs fans. damn.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Nice touch by Big Z.


----------



## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Akron. Not Cleveland. Doesn't mention Cleveland at all. Just Akron. Is it anymore clear now than ever that he never identified with Cleveland as his hometown, and purposefully many times went out of his way to make that fact apparent.
> 
> I think he may actually resent Cleveland. City rivalries in the house.
> 
> ...


It doesn't matter. I don't know why you defend him so blindly.

Look, he fully had the right to leave Cleveland and he did. And I thought that people and athletes were blowing that part of his exit completely out of proportion. But the matter in which he has left Cleveland has been absolutely ridiculous, and this just makes it worse.

Really? Not an acknowledgment of the city? Lebron needs to get a ****ing clue. He tore them apart on national television, but it was okay because it was for the Boys and Girls club. And now he issues an ad which doesn't acknowledge Cleveland, but it's okay because he shows love to Akron. Pathetic. This is where Lebron loses people like me, the people who don't feel too strongly to him one way or another, but stuff like this is just ridiculous. He's prolonging the city's bitterness when he should have just let it died. Just shut the **** up and move on. Don't put out an ad at all, or else put one out with the right intentions.

This is a joke.


----------



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Just when I thought LeBron couldn't do much worse, he goes and commits this abortion.

This guy is a ****ing moron. MORON.

He had every chance to repudiate his stupid "Decision" show, but as the weeks have gone by, he hasn't done a damn thing. And now this.

As AJ said above, this MORON needs to fire his moronic staff. Yesterday. And get some real advice that means something.

My respect for this guy went from very high to extremely low in about 24 days. That's saying something.


----------



## 36 Karat (Nov 10, 2005)

Difference is, Z's was in a Cleveland publication. LeBron's: in an Akron. LeBron's was more of an homage to his actual hometown. It's a bad PR move to not do a similar one in Cleveland, surely.

I'm not trying to defend him by any means. This offseason has only widened the discrepancy of appreciation that I have for the NFL over the NBA.


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

lol, Lebron really doesn't care a lick about the people in Cleveland.


----------



## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

36 Karat said:


> Difference is, Z's was in a Cleveland publication. LeBron's: in an Akron. LeBron's was more of an homage to his actual hometown. It's a bad PR move to not do a similar one in Cleveland, surely.
> 
> I'm not trying to defend him by any means. This offseason has only widened the discrepancy of appreciation that I have for the NFL over the NBA.


hm i don't follow the NFL much, but don't LT and TO have massive egos? not like they're all angels in the nfl.


----------



## carlos710 (Jun 13, 2002)

I think this is actually worst than "The Decision"


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

afobisme said:


> probably did this because he felt he was obliged to, since Z did it and he didn't. i think he's going to learn from his mistakes with the media.
> 
> then again, he didn't even thank the cavs fans. damn.


Actually he tried to take out a full page ad in the Plains Dealer right after the decision but was told to go **** himself by the VP of operations there.

Between that, Dan Gilbert, and the Jersey Burnings, I could see how in Lebron's head he might actually feel a lot of ill will toward cleveland over what was to him a business decision.

At any rate Maverick Carter is certainly taking his lumps this summer. If he doesn't get fired or demoted, he's concievably going to learn a lot of hard lessons.

Can't imagine anyone really wanting to be represented by that company at this point.


----------



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Actually he tried to take out a full page ad in the Plains Dealer right after the decision but was told to go **** himself by the VP of operations there.


Link?


----------



## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

afobisme said:


> hm i don't follow the NFL much, but don't LT and TO have massive egos? not like they're all angels in the nfl.


LT is no saint, but you can't put him anywhere alongside TO when it comes to egos.

Unless you're talking about Lawrence Taylor?


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Pay Ton said:


> It doesn't matter. I don't know why you defend him so blindly.


I'm not defending him. I just seperate what he does on the basketball court vs. off it. I don't care if he's a dick. In fact at this point, I'm interested to see how far they can take this most hated athlete in America bit.

I mean if you're not emotional about it, this is pretty hilariously bad PR management. 

you know he's still doing his bike a thon in Akron this weekend? It's going to be hilarious so long as he doesn't get killed. I guarantee there's going to be some scene between Lebron and a disgruntled group of fans, that is going to be played on national TV for a few days. You can see this **** coming. There's going to be a reduced police presence because of budget cuts as well. We could watch an assassination this weekend. WHich hopefulyl doesn't happen. But if we end up with a scene that requires police intervention and is more bad PR...well I wouldn't be suprised.

Is Maverick Carter the worst adviser in the history of people who give star athletes advice? Maybe so. Him or the guy who tells Barry Bonds what to do.


----------



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> I'm not defending him. I just seperate what he does on the basketball court vs. off it. I don't care if he's a dick. In fact at this point, I'm interested to see how far they can take this most hated athlete in America bit.
> 
> I mean if you're not emotional about it, this is pretty hilariously bad PR management.
> 
> ...


Good post.

If LeBron James is a MORON, then Mav Carter is The MORON. LeBron needs to get a clue and get rid of this a-hole. If its going to be done wrong, its going to be done wrong spectacularly. Congrats Mav, you major piece of ****.


----------



## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

It's almost as if he WANTS to be hated :laugh:

Maverick Carter...if he ever gets another client ill be dumbfounded.


----------



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Wade County said:


> It's almost as if he WANTS to be hated :laugh:


No, I just don't see that in his personality. I really think he is just as stupid as can be, both with "The Decision," and now "The Ad."

As far as the bike-a-thon goes, if I were LeBron, I would skip it. And every year thereafter too. Just sponsor it. As future said above, we could possibly see several bike wheel spokes make their way to LBJ's body.


----------



## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> I'm not defending him. I just seperate what he does on the basketball court vs. off it. I don't care if he's a dick. In fact at this point, I'm interested to see how far they can take this most hated athlete in America bit.
> 
> I mean if you're not emotional about it, this is pretty hilariously bad PR management.


Yeah, I've heard all of this before. You and Sir Patchwork really profess to this. And, for the most part, I'm the same way. The whole "on the court" vs. "off the court" stuff is good in theory, but at some point, if a player continues to be an *******, you're going to have an emotional response. It's just natural. 

Like I said, I don't love or hate Lebron, I think he's an amazing player, but I can't help but get annoyed at this type of behavior. It's stuff like this that puts off the "on the fence" fans like me. People say, "Oh, you should be able to enjoy what he does on the court." I do. But is he really testing my limits? Absolutely. I can't completely discredit somebody's off the court behavior because they are brilliant on the court. I'm emotionally incapable of it. It's natural for me to see him play, and immediately recall his off the court actions, which are growing more ridiculous by the day. If you're different, that's fine. I wish I could be that way. I might enjoy to watch him "just play" more often.



futuristxen said:


> you know he's still doing his bike a thon in Akron this weekend? It's going to be hilarious so long as he doesn't get killed. I guarantee there's going to be some scene between Lebron and a disgruntled group of fans, that is going to be played on national TV for a few days. You can see this **** coming. There's going to be a reduced police presence because of budget cuts as well. We could watch an assassination this weekend. WHich hopefulyl doesn't happen. But if we end up with a scene that requires police intervention and is more bad PR...well I wouldn't be suprised.
> 
> Is Maverick Carter the worst adviser in the history of people who give star athletes advice? Maybe so. Him or the guy who tells Barry Bonds what to do.


If it was any other athlete that was doing the Bike a Thon, I think I would be shocked. But since it's Lebron, I just don't know. I don't know if he fully realizes the public perception of him right now. He needs a lot of personal security there for his own safety.

I do agree, at this point, that Maverick Carter has absolutely ****ted on Lebron's image.


----------



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Pay Ton said:


> If it was any other athlete that was doing the Bike a Thon, I think I would be shocked. But since it's Lebron, I just don't know. I don't know if he fully realizes the public perception of him right now. He needs a lot of personal security there for his own safety.
> 
> I do agree, at this point, that Maverick Carter has absolutely ****ted on Lebron's image.


I agree with this, he is ****ing clueless as to how much the public, in particular Ohio citizens, hate him.

I wouldn't even go to the bike-a-thon if I were him. It will be ugly. Really ugly.


----------



## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

^ Yep - give it a miss this year Mr James.


----------



## RedsDrunk (Oct 31, 2005)

Wade County said:


> ^ Yep - give it a miss this year Mr James.


What's really pathetic is that the guy needs personal security. Fans who take anything within the sports world serious enough to attempt to injure a player are ****ing losers.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

So I'm going to go ahead and assume Futuristxen lied as there is no link to be posted on how he tried to take out a full page ad in the Plains Dealer.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

R-Star said:


> So I'm going to go ahead and assume Futuristxen lied as there is no link to be posted on how he tried to take out a full page ad in the Plains Dealer.


I didn't lie. At least not intentionally. That story was a rumor I had read about on RealCavsFans some time ago. Someone brought it up again in the Lebron/Akron thank you thread. I don't know if it was reported anywhere or not.

I forgot that people here are only sort of half following this, where as there's a new story every half day over on the Cavs forum.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> I didn't lie. At least not intentionally. That story was a rumor I had read about on RealCavsFans some time ago. Someone brought it up again in the Lebron/Akron thank you thread. I don't know if it was reported anywhere or not.
> 
> I forgot that people here are only sort of half following this, where as there's a new story every half day over on the Cavs forum.


For all I know its just a Lebron fan making up stories to defend his hero though. Fair enough that you heard it on RealCavsFans, but unless there's some sort of story backing it up, I'm not going to buy it.

Lebron has gone out of his way to spite Cleveland.


----------



## Maravilla (Jul 6, 2010)

for whatever its worth Amare did this a few days after he finished his signing with the Knickerbockers..

My only knock on Bron is his decision to keep his cronies as his advisers... he has been ridiculously stupid in that regard.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

R-Star said:


> For all I know its just a Lebron fan making up stories to defend his hero though. Fair enough that you heard it on RealCavsFans, but unless there's some sort of story backing it up, I'm not going to buy it.
> 
> Lebron has gone out of his way to spite Cleveland.


Weird. The spin on that news is totaaaaallly diffrent with Cavs fans. 

Anyways. Here's a thread on Cavsfanatic where they talked about it. It's on RealCavsfans as well, but their search function is bunk, and I didn't want to google search that forum:
http://www.cavfanatic.com/go/thread/view/3816/25384161/Ad_in_the_Plain_Dealer


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

R-Star said:


> Lebron has gone out of his way to spite Cleveland.


Oh I know. I think it's funny though. It's not like he's committing a crime. He's just repeatedly shooting himself in the foot in the public, and every time he somehow ends up even more hated. I'm just laughing at it. What else can you really do?

But I do know I'm really excited for Lebron James stories that are basketball related. I haven't been looking forward to an NBA season this much since Jordan came back from baseball. It's going to be really fun.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Ron said:


> No, I just don't see that in his personality. I really think he is just as stupid as can be, both with "The Decision," and now "The Ad."
> 
> As far as the bike-a-thon goes, if I were LeBron, I would skip it. And every year thereafter too. Just sponsor it. As future said above, we could possibly see several bike wheel spokes make their way to LBJ's body.


I don't think it's stupidity so much as group think in action. It's Lebron and Maverick. Probably more Maverick than Lebron, sitting around coming up with these ideas, and just telling each other "yeah it's good idea right".

They just need one guy at the table who says "y'know...that's all pretty cool, but have you considered this this and this".

I'm suprised no one at Nike at least has come down and coached him on this stuff.

But maybe they are. Nike did do that awful Tiger Woods ad with his dad as the voiceover.

If I were advising Lebron, I would say do an interview with Oprah or someone and appologize for the people who were hurt by his decision. Talk about honestly what went into the decision for him. And then disapear until the season starts back up again.

I am skeptical enough though to think that maybe the idea IS to keep Lebron in the discussion this summer by whatever means, and they are banking on once he starts playing basketball and winning that people will start liking him again. Which when you look at the popularity of A-Rod and Tiger Woods, maybe that's not a bad calculation. But that's the thing, it all feels calculated, and for that I don't know if it will work.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Oh I know. I think it's funny though. It's not like he's committing a crime. He's just repeatedly shooting himself in the foot in the public, and every time he somehow ends up even more hated. I'm just laughing at it. What else can you really do?
> 
> But I do know I'm really excited for Lebron James stories that are basketball related. I haven't been looking forward to an NBA season this much since Jordan came back from baseball. It's going to be really fun.


I don't think that anyone who hates Lebron doesn't understand that he is the best player on the planet right now, and baring some freaky injury will have a shot at GOAT, although playing with 2 other superstars may hurt that shot. Hes the best player in the NBA and is a treat to watch. But people like me hate his dancing and showboating, his phantom injuries and pouting when hes not blowing teams out and dancing around like a douche, we hate what he did to Cleveland and the ridiculous TV special. 

I don't understand why Lebron fans seem to take this as a shot at Lebron the player. Lebron the player is the best thing to happen to the NBA in years. Lebron the man though? Hes a dick. A childish douche bag, and we hate him. None of this takes away from what he is on the court though.


----------



## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

Just how much influence does this Maverick guy really have on James' decisions? Ever think just maybe he decided to follow through with this Ad despite what his advisers said? 

Its messed up he didnt acknowledge Cleveland whatsoever. The fact is, no matter what Lebron James says or does this offseason, nothing will look right and will be criticized on the most minor of things. 

Lebron had a Pepsi instead of Coke? the ****ing *******!!!


----------



## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

I really think Lebron just doesn't get it, this isn't like Kobe who doesn't really give a **** what people think, but Lebron I think wants to be like and is just taking bad advice. He needs to dump that bastard Maverick Carter.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Hes an attention whore. I don't feel bad for him if it doesn't come across the way he wants it. Hes a ****ing man, not Lindsey Lohan. Guy should shut the **** up and ball, but I can guarantee you hes going to be the same media bitch for the rest of his career, and as long as anyones willing to talk to him afterward.


----------



## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

IbizaXL said:


> Just how much influence does this Maverick guy really have on James' decisions? Ever think just maybe he decided to follow through with this Ad despite what his advisers said?
> 
> Its messed up he didnt acknowledge Cleveland whatsoever. The fact is, no matter what Lebron James says or does this offseason, nothing will look right and will be criticized on the most minor of things.
> 
> Lebron had a Pepsi instead of Coke? the ****ing *******!!!


Look at this Miami fan trying to excuse his boyfriend. He's criticized because of how he dealt with Cleveland, and that's not close to the most minor of things.


----------



## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

Chan said:


> Look at this Miami fan trying to excuse his boyfriend.


I would have said the same thing even if James plays in China. My thoughts on any player or subject dont change just because im a "Miami Fan" . It doesnt make it any less credible.



> He's criticized because of how he dealt with Cleveland, and that's not close to the most minor of things.


I said its messed up he didnt acknowledge Cleveland. Then mentioned that no matter what he does from now on, even the smallest of things, he'll be criticized anyway. How is that defending him?


----------



## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

R-Star said:


> What a ****ing dick head.
> 
> Why the need to spit in Clevelands face?


Why the need for Cleveland to spit in his face after he exercised his free agent's right to sign elsewhere?


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

People still buy and care about local newspapers? :bsmile:


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I don't really see the big deal here honestly. This was LeBron thanking his real hometown. The decision was bad, but the reaction was worse. Don't expect to hear anything positive about Cleveland from LeBron. It would surprise the hell out of me if he didn't have a ton of resentment after they burned his damn jersey in the streets and just ripped him apart. If the fans don't have gratitude for the years he was there, why should he have gratitude for them during the years he was there? Why be thankful to fans that aren't thankful for your efforts? They only supported you conditionally.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Floods said:


> Why the need for Cleveland to spit in his face after he exercised his free agent's right to sign elsewhere?


Because he didn't exercise it like Bosh, Amare, or any other big name FA. He went on Larry ****ing King, saying how he'd probably resign with Cleveland. He took every interview opportunity and hammed it up, all to build up to an obvious pre planned TV event where he told Cleveland "Hey, I know I said I'd probably stay here, but you guys suck. Go **** yourselves."

I wouldn't burn my Lebron jersey, I'd throw a ****ing rock at his face if I ever saw him again.

Leaving is one thing. Leaving in the biggest dick head way in sports history is another thing.


----------



## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

i dont care


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I don't really see the big deal here honestly. This was LeBron thanking his real hometown. The decision was bad, but the reaction was worse. Don't expect to hear anything positive about Cleveland from LeBron. It would surprise the hell out of me if he didn't have a ton of resentment after they burned his damn jersey in the streets and just ripped him apart. If the fans don't have gratitude for the years he was there, why should he have gratitude for them during the years he was there? Why be thankful to fans that aren't thankful for your efforts? They only supported you conditionally.


*** Stop it now. ***


----------



## carlos710 (Jun 13, 2002)

Do you even know how to post without personal attacks ?


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Ah Lebron....always doing something to keep your name in the news right. Keep soiling your legacy man...keep it up


----------



## TheDarkPrince (May 13, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> I'm not defending him. I just seperate what he does on the basketball court vs. off it. I don't care if he's a dick. In fact at this point, I'm interested to see how far they can take this most hated athlete in America bit.
> 
> I mean if you're not emotional about it, this is pretty hilariously bad PR management.
> 
> ...


IMO, Lebron is playing with fire the more and more he dogs (ignores) the people of Cleveland. There are some truly extreme fans out there , and to think one may get fed up with Lebron and really try to hurt him could indeed happen. I don't want to see anything like that happen to anyone, but imo Lebron needs to just stay out of the media's eye for a bit and let the hate for him to die down at least a little in Cleveland.


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

LMAO...LeBron was pretty vanilla before The Decision. This polarization will make him the biggest athlete of all time. It won't be close if the Miami Heat win multiple titles.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

MemphisX said:


> LMAO...LeBron was pretty vanilla before The Decision. This polarization will make him the biggest athlete of all time. It won't be close if the Miami Heat win multiple titles.


Yeah, I've been laughing my ass off since all this started.


----------



## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

IbizaXL said:


> I would have said the same thing even if James plays in China. My thoughts on any player or subject dont change just because im a "Miami Fan" . It doesnt make it any less credible.
> 
> I said its messed up he didnt acknowledge Cleveland. Then mentioned that no matter what he does from now on, even the smallest of things, he'll be criticized anyway. How is that defending him?


Why would he be criticized for small things like Pepsi or Coke. "Oh he messed up, but the public has it out for him". Way to take the blame off your man. No the public doesn't have it out for him, it's just that he's a prick.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Ah controversy, it sure has endeared the fans to Tiger...oh wait...Tyson? No that can't be...hmmm Kobe? Wait...what's going on here?


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

To quote a friend of mine that works in the advertising business "All you need to know about the American public is that the two most popular athletes today are a rapist and a serial adulterer."


----------



## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Lebron is more of an A-Rod though.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Well, say you. But, the question is what happens after the Heat win a few titles.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

E.H. Munro said:


> To quote a friend of mine that works in the advertising business "All you need to know about the American public is that the two most popular athletes today are a rapist and a serial adulterer."


Hell, even the infamous Charles Barkley still gets huge endorsement deals from Taco Bell and T-Mobile


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

He will be over exposed...too much exposure is never a good thing, just ask the president.


----------



## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Overexposure only sucks if your not winning, just ask Derek Jeter, he wins and being overexposed has been great for him.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

carlos710 said:


> Do you even know how to post without personal attacks ?


It's a good sign when R-Star starts throwing insults. It means he is defeated. Like he sat there and tried to type a rebuttal, but failed to come up with anything of substance, so it turned into _omgg your gay and u suck u pathetic girl hahaha_.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

What do you expect?

"Thank you Cleveland for showing some class and not burning my jersey in the streets, not threatening physical violence against people wearing my jersey, and for understanding my decision"? 

If I'm LeBron I have one thing for the "fans" from Cleveland.


----------



## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

HB said:


> He will be over exposed...too much exposure is never a good thing, just ask the president.


Just win. There's no such thing as being over exposed if you win.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

I know I may be in the minority on this, but I actually respect LeBron for this move. He has ALWAYS said that his loyalty is to Akron, but people always took that as the same thing as Cleveland. I noticed him saying Akron alot in these past 2 years tho, so i'm not surprised that he's still saying the same thing. This letter, i'm not surprised. Who is their to thank in Cleveland, The owner? The fans who burned your jerseys? Maybe if the city of Cleveland was more professional with their response, Lebron wouldve acknowledged them now. But nah, they treated him like trash after 'LeDecision', so you want him to be fake and thank them when that's not how he feels?


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Hibachi! said:


> If I'm LeBron I have one thing for the "fans" from Cleveland.


I bet LeLiar didn't do the same thing to the +60 million dollars he recieved while playing for Cleveland!

I guess either Lebron James is a larger-than-life figure or this board is filled of teenager fanboys. 

Dude is one heck of a player. No doubt about it. and the best basketball player in the world.

But he is also duma**. A classless, egotistical, spoiled, out-of-touch-with-reality duma**.
No way to sugarcoat it, man: Lebron James is JUST NOT the brightest tool in the shed. He is borderline infantile.

What matters is what he does on the court? Well, good for you. Can't disagree. But people trying to make excuses for LeLiar's pitifull behaviour off court just make me wanna puke.
Freking fanboys!


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

R-Star said:


> Because he didn't exercise it like Bosh, Amare, or any other big name FA. He went on Larry ****ing King, saying how he'd probably resign with Cleveland. He took every interview opportunity and hammed it up, all to build up to an obvious pre planned TV event where he told Cleveland "Hey, I know I said I'd probably stay here, but you guys suck. Go **** yourselves."
> 
> I wouldn't burn my Lebron jersey, I'd throw a ****ing rock at his face if I ever saw him again.
> 
> Leaving is one thing. Leaving in the biggest dick head way in sports history is another thing.


OR they're mad that he left them. Would you be more upset if your wife left you or how she left you? That's pretty much where the anger is. He left them and they feel scorned. The city freaking rioted after he left! ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!? If Kobe left LA, they would have said, "That sucks, oh well looks like the Lakers will stink next year." The same goes for any team's franchise player. Then they would boo the **** out of him when he came back to play his former team. It's actually pretty pathetic that people are this angry at a player who played for their team and left abruptly.


----------



## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I don't really see the big deal here honestly. This was LeBron thanking his real hometown. The decision was bad, but the reaction was worse. Don't expect to hear anything positive about Cleveland from LeBron. It would surprise the hell out of me if he didn't have a ton of resentment after they burned his damn jersey in the streets and just ripped him apart. If the fans don't have gratitude for the years he was there, why should he have gratitude for them during the years he was there? Why be thankful to fans that aren't thankful for your efforts? They only supported you conditionally.


Dude was hurt they burned his jersey. When the Mike Wilbon interview aired and Wilbon told Lebron, you could see Lebron hold back some emotion.

Anyway, I don't get what the big deal is, that he didn't mention Cleveland in a billboard appearing in Akron. It's far too early to address Cleveland directly, does anyone think that the Cleveland fans will appreciate Lebron thanking them? They should thank him for making Cleveland relevant for 7 years, and be pissed off at Danny Ferry for not putting a better team around Lebron.

Sure he handled it like an ass, and shares blame in how people reacted, but like I've said before, he's from Akron, his loyalty ultimately is to that city. It's like someone in Dallas rooting for the Spurs when the Mavs get knocked out the playoffs just because it's in the same state.

Do we not forget the rivalry the Kings and Lakers had? Weren't they both in California? I have no loyalty to New York the state, and to be completely honest I could care less about NYS - NYC is all I care about when it comes to this area. 

Cleveland probably wasn't even on Lebron's radar until he got drafted there.


----------



## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Chan said:


> Lebron is more of an A-Rod though.


Not at all. The knock on A-Rod was that he was an all time talent who could never deliver in the postseason. He didn't even show up some post seasons. He wasn't knocked for not winning earlier, but for not even playing to his regular season level.


Lebron steps his play up in the playoffs. The comparison is completely invalid.




Blue Magic said:


> I know I may be in the minority on this, but I actually respect LeBron for this move. He has ALWAYS said that his loyalty is to Akron, but people always took that as the same thing as Cleveland. I noticed him saying Akron alot in these past 2 years tho, so i'm not surprised that he's still saying the same thing. This letter, i'm not surprised. Who is their to thank in Cleveland, The owner? The fans who burned your jerseys? Maybe if the city of Cleveland was more professional with their response, Lebron wouldve acknowledged them now. But nah, they treated him like trash after 'LeDecision', so you want him to be fake and thank them when that's not how he feels?



Exactly! The writing was on the wall for a looooooooong time. Now if he played for the Akron Cavaliers and did this, I could understand.

And I think no matter how he left the fans would be pissed. They felt entitled to Lebron because he was from Ohio. That was wrong.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Chan said:


> Lebron is more of an A-Rod though.


Third most popular athlete, I believe. We love our rapists, adulterers, and cheaters.

We love winners, no matter how big an *******.

Losing though. Losing is unforgivable. So if Lebron wins, all sins forgiven.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> No way to sugarcoat it, man: Lebron James is JUST NOT the brightest tool in the shed. He is borderline infantile.


How would we know how smart he is? Plenty of otherwise intelligent people don't handle celebrity well.

Joe Biden is reasonably intelligent, but he says dumb **** in public constantly.

I think Lebron gets bad advice on what to do PR wise, and he's probably too narcissistic or wrapped up in his own thing to really notice or care. But I have no idea how smart he is. He's probably as smart or smarter than the average american out there.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> I bet LeLiar didn't do the same thing to the +60 million dollars he recieved while playing for Cleveland!


Cleveland made more off of LeBron than LeBron did off of Cleveland. And Cleveland will suffer financially far more without LeBron than LeBron will without Cleveland. You tell me who was exploiting who.


----------



## Brandon Real (Mar 14, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> How would we know how smart he is? Plenty of otherwise intelligent people don't handle celebrity well.
> 
> Joe Biden is reasonably intelligent, but he says dumb **** in public constantly.
> 
> I think Lebron gets bad advice on what to do PR wise, and he's probably too narcissistic or wrapped up in his own thing to really notice or care. But I have no idea how smart he is. He's probably as smart or smarter than the average american out there.


Ridiculously ignorant may be a better word for him.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

So what's going on, did something major happen this summer in the NBA or something?


----------



## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Floods said:


> Why the need for Cleveland to spit in his face after he exercised his free agent's right to sign elsewhere?


The Decision...live on ESPN! And here's a Lebron James commercial for Vitamin Water! Try it!

Get out of here with that nonsense.

He had a ****ing television event. It was bull****, and it shouldn't have been done.

It's so simplistic to say he exercised his right to sign elsewhere. 

He didn't just sign elsewhere. That's not all he did. The ends don't justify the means.

He has handled the whole free agency process almost as bad as you can handle it.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> I bet LeLiar didn't do the same thing to the +60 million dollars he recieved while playing for Cleveland!
> 
> I guess either Lebron James is a larger-than-life figure or this board is filled of teenager fanboys.
> 
> ...


You do realize that intelligence and maturity are two mutually exclusive attributes and the word dumbass is spelled d-u-m-b-a-s-s, right? Dumbass. Also, the owner of the Cavs saw his team's value go up more than $100million in the short span he owned the Cavs. The city of Cleveland saw its downtown grow due to the celebrity of James. He was a multimillion dollar enterprise to the city of Cleveland.



> Another chamber of commerce, meanwhile, estimates a much larger LeBron effect: Jerry Roper of the Chicagoland Chamber of Commerce valued LeBron's potential signing with the Bulls, according to the best estimates he's seen, at $2.5 billion.





> James’ impact on the Cavalier organization from a value standpoint has also been well documented over the past few seasons. According to Forbes.com and various ESPN reports, the Cavaliers franchise was valued at $258 million with annual revenues of $72 million before James’ arrival. As of 2010, the franchise was valued at $476 million—an 85 percent increase over seven years— with annual revenues of nearly $160 million.





> If the Chosen One chooses someone else, downtown businesses figure to lose $48 million over the course of a season. Here's how:


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Joe Biden is reasonably intelligent, but he says dumb **** in public constantly.


Joe Biden was never reasonably intelligent. He only seems that way because he's in a profession loaded with morons.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Brandname said:


> So what's going on, did something major happen this summer in the NBA or something?


:lol: :rotf: :rofl: :rotf: :lol:


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Third most popular athlete, I believe. We love our rapists, adulterers, and cheaters.
> 
> We love winners, no matter how big an *******.
> 
> Losing though. Losing is unforgivable. So if Lebron wins, all sins forgiven.


True, although you continued to hate Kobe no matter how many times he won. I'm enjoying seeing you jump in the same boat as 23AJ and do a 180 on everything you ever preached.


----------



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> Joe Biden was never reasonably intelligent. He only seems that way because he's in a profession loaded with morons.


Truer words were never written.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Hibachi! said:


> What do you expect?
> 
> "Thank you Cleveland for showing some class and not burning my jersey in the streets, not threatening physical violence against people wearing my jersey, and for understanding my decision"?
> 
> If I'm LeBron I have one thing for the "fans" from Cleveland.


Yep.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Will BenedictBoozer change his name to BenedictBron? And where is Pioneer? I see Brandname has made an appearance, although futur has been a regular fixture here.


----------



## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Jamel Irief said:


> True, although you continued to hate Kobe no matter how many times he won. I'm enjoying seeing you jump in the same boat as 23AJ and do a 180 on everything you ever preached.


Granted, Futur admitted being a Lebron fan, 23AJ on the other hand.....


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Game3525 said:


> Granted, Futur admitted being a Lebron fan, 23AJ on the other hand.....


I was talking more in the sense that everything he is defending Lebron doing. He's scolded other players he hates for far less.


----------



## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> True, although you continued to hate Kobe no matter how many times he won. I'm enjoying seeing you jump in the same boat as 23AJ and do a 180 on everything you ever preached.


Some changes are for the better. Mine has been a positive one. I can't speak on anyone else's behalf. For me though, I'm super excited to watch the Miami Heat. And regardless of my past critique of James. He is still a great player, matching up with one of the greatest players in this generation D Wade. It's something special. I'm not going to hate on James anymore. However I will still be critical of him when he does stupid ****. Like I pointed out about this ad he presented.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It's a good sign when R-Star starts throwing insults. It means he is defeated. Like he sat there and tried to type a rebuttal, but failed to come up with anything of substance, so it turned into _omgg your gay and u suck u pathetic girl hahaha_.


Defeated? You didn't even have an argument other than "Lebron is awesome! He did nothing wrong! LEAVE LEBRON ALONE!" I don't know if you knew this, but you kind of have to have an argument before the other side is defeated. Nice try though champ. 

You're pathetic Patch. You have a highschool crush on an NBA player. Enjoy your dream of Lebron running through a flower bed, or you and Lebron saving the world from space monsters, or whatever amazing dream you're having tonight.


----------



## Gx (May 24, 2006)

Cleveland would be mad even without "The Decision". That's just their excuse to hate him. It's an easy one to use. I'm sure they would've found another reason though if "The Decision" never happened. They'll deny it, but it's clear to most people outside of Ohio.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

R-Star said:


> Defeated? You didn't even have an argument other than "Lebron is awesome! He did nothing wrong! LEAVE LEBRON ALONE!" I don't know if you knew this, but you kind of have to have an argument before the other side is defeated. Nice try though champ.
> 
> You're pathetic Patch. You have a highschool crush on an NBA player. Enjoy your dream of Lebron running through a flower bed, or you and Lebron saving the world from space monsters, or whatever amazing dream you're having tonight.


So weird to hear Sir Patchwork described as a Lebron homer. We used to have arguements about him years ago. I never really thought Patch was a fan, so much as he respected game when he saw it. Not even sure Lebron is his favorite player. Could be wrong.

You used to be a lot nicer to people R-Star.


----------



## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

Chan said:


> Why would he be criticized for small things like Pepsi or Coke. "Oh he messed up, but the public has it out for him". Way to take the blame off your man. No the public doesn't have it out for him, it's just that he's a prick.


call him what you want, but the fact still remains.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Gx said:


> Cleveland would be mad even without "The Decision". That's just their excuse to hate him. It's an easy one to use. I'm sure they would've found another reason though if "The Decision" never happened. They'll deny it, but it's clear to most people outside of Ohio.


Just like Cleveland had such an outrage over Z leaving.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Gx said:


> Cleveland would be mad even without "The Decision". That's just their excuse to hate him. It's an easy one to use. I'm sure they would've found another reason though if "The Decision" never happened. They'll deny it, but it's clear to most people outside of Ohio.


"They would have sent that guy to jail even if he didn't go on that murdering spree. That's just everyones excuse!"

Do you even read what you write? Cleveland fans may have been sour if Bron left, but they wouldn't be in outright hatred mode like they are now after viewing a TV special that told them to go screw themselves.


----------



## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Gx said:


> Cleveland would be mad even without "The Decision". That's just their excuse to hate him. It's an easy one to use. I'm sure they would've found another reason though if "The Decision" never happened. They'll deny it, but it's clear to most people outside of Ohio.


Bull****. As is using the Lebron jersey burning as some sort of excuse for apologists.

Does anybody remember the footage from right after "The Decision"? We didn't see the streets loaded with Lebron jersey burnings. Almost all of the footage we saw, was reaction from people in bars throughout Cleveland. We saw moaning, we saw disappoitment, we saw some chick crying like her mother just died, we saw people booing. Then we cut to one incident, which until today is the same jersey burning incident they show on television, and I haven't seen any other one, where these group of guys are throwing the jersey's into a pile, namely one Lebron throwback jersey, I believe, and burning it. 

So with that, we get this..



> It would surprise the hell out of me if he didn't have a ton of resentment after they burned his damn jersey in the streets and just ripped him apart.


By the way, what is "just ripped him apart" supposed to mean? Wrote mean articles about him? Booed him at bars? I wonder.



> What do you expect?
> 
> "Thank you Cleveland for showing some class and not burning my jersey in the streets,





> The city freaking rioted after he left!


This is an interesting one, too. They rioted. They just full on rioted man. It was crazy.



> Dude was hurt they burned his jersey


I mean, really? Seriously?

"Poor Lebron. What should Cleveland expect after the entire city burned his all his jerseys in one massive riot and used it as campfire for the hobo's who then pissed on the ashes and used the remaining pieces of clothing to choke little children with?"

I mean, come on. A group of dudes burned his jersey. You'd think they burned the flag. Get over it. 

The difference here is, you can't generalize the actions of one man when he's being a dick, but it's easy to generalize the actions of a city, when some of it's fans are overreacting.

Get real.

By the way, you know how many jersey burning videos of other players they have on youtube? Take a look. Kobe Bryant is pretty popular on there. One, is even from L.A. fans, who lost a bet I believe. If Kobe ever left them on national television, we can point to that as the reason it's okay, and then we'll just say the entire city of L.A. was harsh to Kobe.


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Some changes are for the better. Mine has been a positive one. I can't speak on anyone else's behalf. For me though, I'm super excited to watch the Miami Heat. And regardless of my past critique of James. *He is still a great player, matching up with one of the greatest players in this generation D Wade. It's something special. I'm not going to hate on James anymore. However I will still be critical of him when he does stupid ****. Like I pointed out about this ad he presented.*


So you're going to be a normal human being? It's going to take me a while to get used to this.


----------



## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

R-Star said:


> Because he didn't exercise it like Bosh, Amare, or any other big name FA. He went on Larry ****ing King, saying how he'd probably resign with Cleveland.


LOL. Really? The Larry King appearance was him being an attention whore? As I remember it, everyone was wondering when LeBron would break his silence until he appeared on King.

Either way, anyone dumb enough to think he'd really tip his hand on Larry King fully deserves all the negative emotions they're feeling.



> He took every interview opportunity and hammed it up, all to build up to an obvious pre planned TV event where he told Cleveland "Hey, I know I said I'd probably stay here, but you guys suck. Go **** yourselves."


That definitely was not what he said, though he may have been thinking it (and who could really blame him).



> I wouldn't burn my Lebron jersey, I'd throw a ****ing rock at his face if I ever saw him again.


I'm sure.



> Leaving is one thing. Leaving in the biggest dick head way in sports history is another thing.


Those idiots in Cleveland would have had a ****fit if LeBron left, no matter what manner he did it. Anyone who doesn't believe that is either lying to themselves or too stupid to be opining on this.

All the TV show did was give the Cleveland urchins a vehicle to help vindicate themselves. We were hearing the 'LeBron would be a pariah' talk well before the the idea for The Decision was ever floated. The whole 'LeBron's a meanie, how could he do this to Cleveland' garbage, the city's ridiculous outrage and feeling of being unfairly snubbed, all this was coming no matter what, if LeBron was leaving Cleveland. The Decision just gave everyone an excuse to add 'attention whore' to the docket.



PauloCatarino said:


> I bet LeLiar didn't do the same thing to the +60 million dollars he recieved while playing for Cleveland!


OOOOOOOOOOOOO!!



> I guess either Lebron James is a larger-than-life figure or this board is filled of teenager fanboys.


You of all people calling us teenager fanboys? Weren't you the clown who made a 'KAVS SUK' thread at playoff time every year?

Don't even talk about who's biased and who isn't, champ.



> Dude is one heck of a player. No doubt about it. and the best basketball player in the world.


All anyone should really be judging him on. 



> But he is also duma**. A classless, egotistical, spoiled, out-of-touch-with-reality duma**.


Just like you.



> No way to sugarcoat it, man: Lebron James is JUST NOT the brightest tool in the shed.


He left Cleveland's abortion of a franchise. So he has at least an above average I.Q. and knows how to connect dots (unlike you).



> He is borderline infantile.


Just like this little bitchfit of yours:



> What matters is what he does on the court? Well, good for you. Can't disagree. But people trying to make excuses for LeLiar's pitifull behaviour off court just make me wanna puke.
> Freking fanboys!





Pay Ton said:


> The Decision...live on ESPN! And here's a Lebron James commercial for Vitamin Water! Try it!


Okay.



> Get out of here with that nonsense.


Back at you.



> He had a ****ing television event. It was bull****, and it shouldn't have been done.


It got a ****ton of ratings. I think it worked out. He didn't owe Cleveland, New York, or Chicago anything. He wants to have a TV special to announce his decision? Fine, whatever. Don't know who's rights he violated to be this hated for it.



> It's so simplistic to say he exercised his right to sign elsewhere.


That's what he did. It's not simplistic, it's a ****ing fact, and the only one that counts.



> He didn't just sign elsewhere. That's not all he did. The ends don't justify the means.


Yes it is, and yes they did.



> He has handled the whole free agency process almost as bad as you can handle it.


Based on what, everyone's lack of common sense?



R-Star said:


> Defeated? You didn't even have an argument other than "Lebron is awesome! He did nothing wrong! LEAVE LEBRON ALONE!" I don't know if you knew this, but you kind of have to have an argument before the other side is defeated. Nice try though champ.


That's a perfectly valid argument. And no one's come up with anything yet to really debunk it, other than bitch and moan and cry about morals and modesty and poor old Cleveland.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Floods said:


> Those idiots in Cleveland would have had a ****fit if LeBron left, no matter what manner he did it. Anyone who doesn't believe that is either lying to themselves or too stupid to be opining on this.


I see that, in addition to me, all of the other Cleveland fans have vacated the boards over the past year, so maybe there hasn't been much coming from our point of view. But the anger towards Lebron started long before "The Decision", and it had nothing to do with free agency at all.

As anyone who watched the game knows, Game 5 of the Celtics series was an event that blindsided Cleveland fans. What we saw in the game changed our perception of Lebron permanently, whether he was going to stay or not. What we saw in that game was a superstar who quit on his teammates, his coaching staff, and his fans. We can forgive poor performances (contrary to what Lebron believes, yes he's had more than 3 of them in 7 years). We can forgive exhaustion. What we can't forgive is quitting. And that's exactly what happened in that game. He didn't even bring anything to the table that game, and every Cavs fan in the nation sat stunned in front of his TV in complete bewilderment as to what we were witnessing. This is a feeling none of us had ever experienced before, and it was literally the most painful experience I've ever had as a sports fan. We felt sabotaged. And who knows, maybe we were.

Fast forward to after we lose the series. In the postgame press conference, Lebron starts talking about the plan his team is going to execute in the offseason. Only, he's not talking about the Cavs. He's talking about LRMR. He doesn't feel bad about the loss. It doesn't even seem to be much of a thought in his mind. On top of quitting, it was basically a slap in the face to every Cavs fan who cared so much about this playoff run -- every Cavs fan who had spent a large portion of their very moderate income to go and cheer him and the team on (and ultimately pay his salary). Despite this, we were ready to support him if he came back, even though there was a bit of a sore spot from this incident. 

We didn't want to think about what Game 5 meant if he had planned on leaving all along.

So to answer your question (not really a question I know, but it probably should have been), yeah we would have been upset if Lebron left anyway. But not _because _he left. We understand how free agency works all too well, and I think it's fantastic that a player can have the power to play for whatever team he wants. A lot of times in sports, the players don't have enough say in where they play, so it's refreshing to have someone be able to take advantage of the system in place that allows them to do so.

No, the problem that we would have had is the fact that he quit on us before he left. All we ask is that you give it your all while you're with us and do what you can to win. That's why we give you so much of our money to see you play. That's why you can make huge amounts of cast playing a sport. He broke that fan/player trust in that series, and skipping town afterward would have negated the forgiveness we were willing to offer for quitting. 

"The Decision", however, blindsided us. When it was announced, I'd never been more confident he would stay. Who the **** would go on national tv to kick the people who supported him for so long in the face? You people here know how we felt about him. He was the best thing to happen to Cleveland sports in a long time, and we supported him despite all of the ****ty things he did as a person during his time in Cleveland (yes I realize that was a mistake now). Point is, we have some of the most loyal fans in the country. But we don't respond kindly to getting **** on. 

If you think this kind of backlash would have happened if he had handled the situation with class and civility, then I'm not sure what to say other than you clearly have no idea how Cleveland fans feel. None. 

And you absolutely don't have any place to call Cleveland fans idiots.


----------



## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

What a tool.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Lauderdale Lebron had to do something to establish himself as the undisputed leader of the NWO. He leg dropped Cleveland while everyone stood there in shock. So stop crying and start throwing batteries at him when he comes to town.


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

I love this and in my opinion, it couldn't happen to a better city :devil2: Of course, I'm a guy that loves watching replays of the 81 NFL playoff game against Oakland, Jordan's shot in the 89 playoffs, the 95 World Series, the 88 AFC championship game (the fumble), the 07 MLB Playoffs where the Red Sox came back from down 3-1, the 87 AFC championship game (the drive), and of course Game 7 of the 97 World Series.

Akron isn't and never has been Cleveland. It was personally nauseating to see the national media call Cleveland LeBron's hometown for all these years. 

LeBron's shoes, jersey, and other merchandise are still going to sell a ton regardless of what he does to the city of Cleveland and their fans.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

briaN37 said:


> What a tool.


Floods? Yea, he is.


----------



## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Brandname said:


> He was the best thing to happen to Cleveland sports in a long time, and we supported him despite all of the ****ty things he did as a person during his time in Cleveland (yes I realize that was a mistake now).


what were all these ****ty things lebron did as a person that you supported him through?


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> So weird to hear Sir Patchwork described as a Lebron homer. We used to have arguements about him years ago. I never really thought Patch was a fan, so much as he respected game when he saw it. Not even sure Lebron is his favorite player. Could be wrong.


Yeah, I like Chris Paul and Kevin Durant a lot more than LeBron. Of course, Kobe in his prime was one of my all-time favorites. 

LeBron is a favorite simply because he is great. I'm a fan of basketball. Therefore I am a fan of those who are great at basketball. Back in LeBron's rookie year and 2nd year I thought people were jumping too quickly to make him an MVP and so on. At this point though, he has become everything he was supposed to be and more. I mean, how many times in history has there been an undisputed best player in the basketball? Not many, and LeBron has been that for 2 years *despite* not winning. Imagine how much of a no-brainer it would be if he was winning titles. 

I made a lot of the same arguments for Kobe in 2006, and there were R-Stars back then too (SPMJ) who also resorted to names and insults. But we're on a message board, so I don't know how to take that. All I know is that when those insults replace reason and logic, it means the argument is over and I don't have to reply to them anymore.


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Why are Cleveland fans acting like they would still have a problem with LeBron if he had stayed? What is funny is that the rest of the media would have been still attacking LeBron's legacy if he had stayed in Cleveland. Cleveland, the rest of the world does not care a lick and as soon as Miami starts winning they will be back on LeBron's dick. So this facade the rest of the sports world is showing about supporting the plight of Cleveland fans is not going to last and the Cleveland fans will be left to stew in their frustration all alone while watching LeBron being placed on a pedestal as the greatest athlete of our time.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

rocketeer said:


> what were all these ****ty things lebron did as a person that you supported him through?


I think I phrased that wrong. When I think of a ****ty person, I guess I think of a criminal or something. I guess I mean more of his complete self-absorbed narcissistic act that he went through his entire duration with the Cavs. More and more stories have come out about people turning the other way when he would be an ******* to everyone, like from Woj's article published a couple weeks ago:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-heatfreeagency071610



> Back when the Heat’s three new superstars had signed short contract extensions and started to explore the idea of free agency thrusting them together, a different discussion had played out within the NBA and USA Basketball: What should we do with LeBron?
> 
> *From Team USA coach Mike Krzyzewski to managing director Jerry Colangelo to NBA elders, the issue of James’ immaturity and downright disrespectfulness had become a consuming topic on the march to the Olympics. *The course of history could’ve changed dramatically, because there was a real risk that James wouldn’t be brought to Beijing based on fears his monumental talents weren’t worth the daily grind of dealing with him.
> 
> ...


Basically Cavs fans defended him through all of his ******* behavior because, well, I guess that's what fans do. We thought that there was a chance maybe the media blew all these stories out of proportion or something silly like that. Well, I think it's safe to say that the veil has been lifted after the Lebron James Ego Tour this summer, and nobody can deny it anymore. Dude is just a straight up *******. 

Doesn't tip in restaurants. Treats people around him who aren't a part of his "inner circle" like ****. Overall just couldn't give a flying **** about anyone but himself. Sad that we excused such behavior for such a long time just because he's really good at basketball.


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Brandname said:


> I think I phrased that wrong. When I think of a ****ty person, I guess I think of a criminal or something. I guess I mean more of his complete self-absorbed narcissistic act that he went through his entire duration with the Cavs. More and more stories have come out about people turning the other way when he would be an ******* to everyone, like from Woj's article published a couple weeks ago:
> 
> http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-heatfreeagency071610
> 
> ...


I just find it funny that nobody has EVER come on record about LeBron. If he was such an A-hole during the Olympics, why were all of his Olympic teammates trying to play with him? 

This new age sports "journalism" in which writers not only create a story but a series of themed stories without any on the record confirmation is IMO cowardly and irresponsible. The same writers who supposedly had "sources" all summer telling them LeBron was going to X, Y and Z team that were 100% false are still believed when they follow those articles up with hatchet articles on athletes without anyone actually coming on the record.

My challenge to any poster is to find anyone who says something derogatory about LeBron on the record BEFORE they have a personal axe to grind. Heck, even former teammates of his. IMO this entire evil LeBron creation is the greatest job of sprts marketing ever. Now LeBron gets to go on the road in black jerseys with crowds booing him passionately (for awhile) while playing on the most talented team in the league. Yet, the brain surgeon sports writers want me to think he has hurt his brand? Just wait until the top selling jersey info comes out next season.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

MemphisX said:


> Why are Cleveland fans acting like they would still have a problem with LeBron if he had stayed? What is funny is that the rest of the media would have been still attacking LeBron's legacy if he had stayed in Cleveland. Cleveland, the rest of the world does not care a lick and as soon as Miami starts winning they will be back on LeBron's dick. So this facade the rest of the sports world is showing about supporting the plight of Cleveland fans is not going to last and the Cleveland fans will be left to stew in their frustration all alone while watching LeBron being placed on a pedestal as the greatest athlete of our time.


Not sure which Cleveland fans you're referring to specifically, but I have no illusions about how the rest of his career will likely play out. He'll probably get multiple titles in Miami. He'll become a multiple-time MVP with championships in his pocket, and he'll be beloved despite all his flaws as a person. Hell, the guys currently in the running for GOAT weren't great people in general either. Beyond anything, America loves winners. We don't care much about the ****ty things people do off the court. In fact, we almost start rooting for people when they do ****ty things because we love the "redemption story", although redemption in this case almost always means simply winning at a sport, not actual life/moral redemption.

Look at the two most popular athletes right now: Tiger Woods and Kobe Bryant.

Both of them are known adulterers and one of them was accused of raping a woman.

America doesn't base who we root for based on any kind of moral judgment. We just root for guys who are really ****ing good at the sport. Whether that's a good thing or not I'll leave up to everyone to decide for themselves, but it's a fact of life.

It's a mistake to say that Cleveland wouldn't have a problem with Lebron if he stayed. Our problems with him started when he was still with us. His behavior at the end of the season/offseason alienated him with our fanbase, and while we would have gladly had him back on the team, we would have felt rather sour about the way he acted leading up to this summer fiasco. 

Here is a post by me after Game 5: 



Brandname said:


> Whether he's hurt or not, Lebron has failed completely in leading this team. That's what's most disappointing to me. Complete **** for body language, **** for effort, **** for any semblance of leadership.
> 
> That's hard for me to accept.


Leading up to the decision:



Brandname said:


> The only thing that saddens me a bit is that, although I believe strongly that Lebron will be back, he's lost all connection to reality to me. This is pretty much his attention-whoring tour, and we're all just along for a ride. Even when he does announce he's coming back, it's hard not to have a sour taste left in my mouth. I believe his team floated these rumors to drum up intrigue about "The Decision" show tonight.
> 
> This whole thing just screams complete detachment to me. Disappointing, even if he does return.


Regarding Bosh not choosing to come to Cleveland:



Brandname said:


> I don't care. I'm still not piling on Bosh if it is true that he's committing to the Heat.
> 
> As a former Clevelander and always a Cleveland fan, I can appreciate the sentiment and feeling of rejection that we're all feeling right now. When we can offer more money and a better chance at a ring, yet he's turning it down, it feels like a complete slap in the face to the city (it is).
> 
> ...


Hopefully it's clear that it was much more than Lebron's decision to not play for Cleveland that was the real problem. I mean, I'd never claim that to be an easy decision, especially when he has another opportunity laid out in front of him that's so attractive.

But the way he did it was the most painful way possible, bordering on malicious when he decided he wanted to name it "The Decision". He stopped talking to the organization entirely and wouldn't even return their calls. He wouldn't talk to any potential coaching candidates for the Cavaliers period, even when they tried to contact him. 

We could have easily felt just as betrayed by Z bolting to Miami, when he's been a far more loyal Cavalier than Lebron. But we didn't, and we were totally cool with his decision, even though we'll miss him. He handled it with class and dignity. It was Lebron's behavior that turned the fans on him, and that started long before "The Decision". The fact that he left acted as the catalyst that allowed it to boil over.


----------



## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

If we stop cheering for pro athletes that are self-absorbed, narcissistic jerks, we might as well stop following sports.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

MemphisX said:


> I just find it funny that nobody has EVER come on record about LeBron. If he was such an A-hole during the Olympics, why were all of his Olympic teammates trying to play with him?


By all accounts, he seems to be a pretty good teammate. I don't think he usually treats his teammates poorly, and everyone on his teams usually loves playing with him. Perhaps it's because he doesn't feel he's as superior to them as others? I'm not sure.



> This new age sports "journalism" in which writers not only create a story but a series of themed stories without any on the record confirmation is IMO cowardly and irresponsible. The same writers who supposedly had "sources" all summer telling them LeBron was going to X, Y and Z team that were 100% false are still believed when they follow those articles up with hatchet articles on athletes without anyone actually coming on the record.
> 
> My challenge to any poster is to find anyone who says something derogatory about LeBron on the record BEFORE they have a personal axe to grind. Heck, even former teammates of his. IMO this entire evil LeBron creation is the greatest job of sprts marketing ever. Now LeBron gets to go on the road in black jerseys with crowds booing him passionately (for awhile) while playing on the most talented team in the league. Yet, the brain surgeon sports writers want me to think he has hurt his brand? Just wait until the top selling jersey info comes out next season.


What you're referring to has been the biggest problem of all. And perhaps it's been the biggest problem of Lebron's entire life.

Nobody speaks out against the stuff that he does because he's such an amazing talent. Nobody wants to piss him off because you love to have him playing for your team. He's surrounded by enablers and "yes-men". So these stories get swept under the rug all the time. The Cavs organization was guilty of that very thing, and the Heat organization will assuredly be guilty of it as well.


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Brandname said:


> By all accounts, he seems to be a pretty good teammate. I don't think he usually treats his teammates poorly, and everyone on his teams usually loves playing with him. Perhaps it's because he doesn't feel he's as superior to them as others? I'm not sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See, you still don't get it. You used a 4,000 word NATIONAL article that was a blatant hatchet job on LeBron as a reference, yet, it has only two sentences of quotes by an unnamed NBA official. IMO that is cowardly. Not only that but the writer actually has the audacity to title it an inside look when he had no clue where LeBron was going. So how did he get on the inside of a process after the fact?

IMO it is all a bunch of bull**** by the good old boys who get offended when athletes do not let them on the inside of their lives. So there will be a stream of "incidents" by this player that are never documented or nobody seemingly has the courage to speak out. Really? Do you really think we live in a day and age where people don't have the courage to speak negatively about an athlete? That is your theory. LeBron might be a big A-Hole. I don't pretend to know. Because living in Memphis, I heard 1st hand accounts about how Shane Battier's entire public persona was a farce. So I don't pretend to know these athletes based on sports journalism. 

If you have never had any personal interaction with LeBron, I am trying to figure out where your well developed opinion about the type of person he is comes from?


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

MemphisX said:


> See, you still don't get it. You used a 4,000 word NATIONAL article that was a blatant hatchet job on LeBron as a reference, yet, it has only two sentences of quotes by an unnamed NBA official. IMO that is cowardly. Not only that but the writer actually has the audacity to title it an inside look when he had no clue where LeBron was going. So how did he get on the inside of a process after the fact?
> 
> IMO it is all a bunch of bull**** by the good old boys who get offended when athletes do not let them on the inside of their lives. So there will be a stream of "incidents" by this player that are never documented or nobody seemingly has the courage to speak out. Really? Do you really think we live in a day and age where people don't have the courage to speak negatively about an athlete? That is your theory. LeBron might be a big A-Hole. I don't pretend to know. Because living in Memphis, I heard 1st hand accounts about how Shane Battier's entire public persona was a farce. So I don't pretend to know these athletes based on sports journalism.
> 
> If you have never had any personal interaction with LeBron, I am trying to figure out where your well developed opinion about the type of person he is comes from?


Hey, you don't have to believe it if you don't want to. I've heard enough firsthand accounts to know that either a WHOLE LOT of people are in on the "Lebron is EVIL!!!!!" conspiracy or that he really is just an *******. Very little of my opinion of him is formed on the story I posted here. I just can't exactly "link" firsthand accounts on a message board.

Like I said though, ultimately it's based on your own judgment whether to believe the stories you hear or not. Although I'd say if you've made it through this offseason without seeing an ******* persona from Lebron himself (on national tv, even), then you might not be paying close enough attention to NBA basketball.


----------



## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

James' brand may actually be permanently damaged. I dunno. I firmly believe that if these guys were teaming up for the Knicks in New York, James would be hands down the biggest star in american sports. And whatever "hate" he has would actually add to his stardom given how much New Yorkers embrace being villains. 

Playing for big market teams with HUGE a fanbase is always a plus; especially when your public image takes a hit. Miami is not that big of a market and the Heat have only been in existence for 2 decades.


----------



## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Where were all the Cavs fans calling LeBron an ******* and a quitter before the Boston series? Dan Gilbert didn't speak a word about LeBron quitting then all of a sudden he says that he quit in games two, three, four, five, and six?

Pat Riley threw Shaq out of practice. After winning a championship. He then benched and traded his ass. Eight months ago he called out Dwyane Wade in the media and said he doesn't look as healthy as last year and then he flew Tim Grover out to give Wade a Spartan kick in the rear.

That's what LeBron left and what he joined. It's not a coincidence that the same people and organizations keep winning while the same groups keep failing miserably.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Adam said:


> Where were all the Cavs fans calling LeBron an ******* and a quitter before the Boston series? Dan Gilbert didn't speak a word about LeBron quitting then all of a sudden he says that he quit in games two, three, four, five, and six?


I'm not sure about any of the other games, and I didn't get that impression.

The reason I didn't call him a quitter before the Boston series is because *the Boston series was the one where I felt he quit*. 

I'm no fortune teller.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

LeBron is a good teammate and friend to those with power, but he ****s on the "little people", that's where the reputation should come from.

Where people get it wrong is they attach stuff like the non handshake, and dancing and such to label him that..but it's not about that, it's about him not having respect and value for many people. 

I saw on the Cleveland Cavs' boards after he left where people were finally coming forward about him doing everything we ended up hearing about Roethlisberger, minus the boorish stuff to females.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I think where "little people" miss it is that these guys only have so much time in any given day, and unlimited demands from the fans. I saw this all the time when I worked for the Red Sox in the late 80s (the height of Clemens mania). A lot of Red Sox fans would tell you that he was an ******* because he didn't make time for them, but the truth is I was watching it from the other side and I couldn't blame him. When you start signing autographs on your own time you get mobbed and can't break free. Now, I would have called him an *******, too, but for completely different reasons (I can't tell you how many times I saw poor Sam Horn being treated as a personal servant by Clemens and Boggs, when Boston would get back from a road trip and poor Sam was struggling to carry their luggage in addition to his own, despite his massive size he never had the temerity to tell them to **** off). 

But really people need to understand that these guys all have their own lives, which they want to lead, and if they behave like *******s towards you, it's generally because it's the path of least resistance.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm not talking about not signing autographs.

I'm talking about not leaving tips, on the "my presence brings money" mantra, being rude to staff members at restaurants, those types of things.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Dre™ said:


> I'm not talking about not signing autographs.
> 
> I'm talking about not leaving tips, on the "my presence brings money" mantra, being rude to staff members at restaurants, those types of things.


Yeah, that's pretty much everyone famous. Did you never read the old A-List website?


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Dre™;6343830 said:


> LeBron is a good teammate and friend to those with power, but he ****s on the "little people", that's where the reputation should come from.
> 
> Where people get it wrong is they attach stuff like the non handshake, and dancing and such to label him that..but it's not about that, it's about him not having respect and value for many people.
> 
> I saw on the Cleveland Cavs' boards after he left where people were finally coming forward about him doing everything we ended up hearing about Roethlisberger, minus the *boorish stuff to females*.


Oh I've heard plenty of that, too. Why do you think he hasn't married Savannah? And why do you think Danny Granger hates him? 

EDIT - And I 100% agree with your comment about having respect for people. That's what he lacks. 


E.H. Munro said:


> I think where "little people" miss it is that these guys only have so much time in any given day, and unlimited demands from the fans. I saw this all the time when I worked for the Red Sox in the late 80s (the height of Clemens mania). A lot of Red Sox fans would tell you that he was an ******* because he didn't make time for them, but the truth is I was watching it from the other side and I couldn't blame him. When you start signing autographs on your own time you get mobbed and can't break free. Now, I would have called him an *******, too, but for completely different reasons (I can't tell you how many times I saw poor Sam Horn being treated as a personal servant by Clemens and Boggs, when Boston would get back from a road trip and poor Sam was struggling to carry their luggage in addition to his own, despite his massive size he never had the temerity to tell them to **** off).
> 
> But really people need to understand that these guys all have their own lives, which they want to lead, and if they behave like *******s towards you, it's generally because it's the path of least resistance.


That's why I don't care when someone complains that he didn't sign their autograph or didn't talk to them in a restaurant or something. I mean, that's kind of silly. But how you interact with people is a big thing. I used to defend him with a lot of the same justifications, but on a level of basic human decency, it doesn't take more time out of someone's day to be nice to someone instead of being mean. It doesn't take more time to tip your waitress than to not tip. It doesn't take more time to _not _kick someone out of a restaurant because you want to be there instead.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Brandname said:


> Oh I've heard plenty of that, too. Why do you think he hasn't married Savannah? And why do you think Danny Granger hates him?


Yeah I've heard some things there but that's a little too Perez Hilton for me...


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Dre™ said:


> Yeah I've heard some things there but that's a little too Perez Hilton for me...


Agreed.

Of course, I did say the same thing about the Gloria/Delonte thing.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Soem seem to confuse calling him out on his stupid behavior with saying he wont win....he will win no doubt, but lets call it what it is...this guy is a clown.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Dre™ said:


> I'm not talking about not signing autographs.
> 
> I'm talking about not leaving tips, on the "my presence brings money" mantra, being rude to staff members at restaurants, those types of things.


Athletes are not typically good tippers. Michael Jordan was notorious for being a horrible tipper. It sucks if you get caught serving these guys because you have to bust your ass, and you're not going to get a tip at all at the end of the day. 

Europeans are also bad tippers as a rule. Actually most foriegn born people suck at tipping.

Also different economic classes tend to tip differently. As do different races.

Plus chances are good if Lebron is out he's with his entourage, and it's their job to handle that stuff and I'm sure they are twice as stingy about that kind of thing, because it's less money for them.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> See, you still don't get it. You used a 4,000 word NATIONAL article that was a blatant hatchet job on LeBron as a reference, yet, it has only two sentences of quotes by an unnamed NBA official. IMO that is cowardly. Not only that but the writer actually has the audacity to title it an inside look when he had no clue where LeBron was going. So how did he get on the inside of a process after the fact?
> 
> IMO it is all a bunch of bull**** by the good old boys who get offended when athletes do not let them on the inside of their lives. So there will be a stream of "incidents" by this player that are never documented or nobody seemingly has the courage to speak out. Really? Do you really think we live in a day and age where people don't have the courage to speak negatively about an athlete? That is your theory. LeBron might be a big A-Hole. I don't pretend to know. Because living in Memphis, I heard 1st hand accounts about how Shane Battier's entire public persona was a farce. So I don't pretend to know these athletes based on sports journalism.
> 
> If you have never had any personal interaction with LeBron, I am trying to figure out where your well developed opinion about the type of person he is comes from?


Amen. I would give you rep but I already did. The new sports journalism is straight Perez Hilton/Tabloid bull****.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Brandname said:


> That's why I don't care when someone complains that he didn't sign their autograph or didn't talk to them in a restaurant or something. I mean, that's kind of silly. But how you interact with people is a big thing. I used to defend him with a lot of the same justifications, but on a level of basic human decency, it doesn't take more time out of someone's day to be nice to someone instead of being mean. It doesn't take more time to tip your waitress than to not tip. It doesn't take more time to _not _kick someone out of a restaurant because you want to be there instead.


I think I mentioned this a few pages back, but being a celebrity has a lot in common with being a sociopath. And it's never been any different. I can tell you that Joe DiMaggio's friends used to call him "fish hooks" because he was notorious for never reaching into his pocket to pick up a check, never tipped, and always hassled the help (and I got the story straight from Dom, so I know it's true). I mean, sure, if you want to complain that LeBron's just like everyone else, fine. He's just like everyone else. Maybe I'm just more realistic, I don't expect them to good human beings because they almost never are.


----------



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> I think I mentioned this a few pages back, but being a celebrity has a lot in common with being a sociopath. And it's never been any different. I can tell you that Joe DiMaggio's friends used to call him "fish hooks" because he was notorious for never reaching into his pocket to pick up a check, never tipped, and always hassled the help (and I got the story straight from Dom, so I know it's true). I mean, sure, if you want to complain that LeBron's just like everyone else, fine. He's just like everyone else. Maybe I'm just more realistic, I don't expect them to good human beings because they almost never are.


I love the part where DiMaggio was so cheap that he wouldn't pay for a car wash; when it would rain he would run to his car and drive around a while. :laugh:


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

They sure are generous when it comes to making it rain


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Athletes are not typically good tippers. Michael Jordan was notorious for being a horrible tipper. It sucks if you get caught serving these guys because you have to bust your ass, and you're not going to get a tip at all at the end of the day.
> 
> Europeans are also bad tippers as a rule. Actually most foriegn born people suck at tipping.
> 
> ...


Europeans are bad tippers because service workers in Europe don't get paid far below minimum wage like Americans do. In Europe, tipping is seen as something above and beyond the normal cost of the meal, and usually a Euro or two is all that is left. It's a courtesy, rather than a primary source of income like the US.

NBA players know all about tipping conventions in the US because the league has a code of conduct that it explains to the players every year before they go out and do something stupid (like not tipping) in public. 

So lame to try to pass the buck onto his entourage.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Brandname said:


> Europeans are bad tippers because service workers in Europe don't get paid far below minimum wage like Americans do. In Europe, tipping is seen as something above and beyond the normal cost of the meal, and usually a Euro or two is all that is left. It's a courtesy, rather than a primary source of income like the US.
> 
> NBA players know all about tipping conventions in the US because the league has a code of conduct that it explains to the players every year before they go out and do something stupid (like not tipping) in public.
> 
> So lame to try to pass the buck onto his entourage.


My roommate used to be a server in Miami. Trust me I know what I'm talking about when it comes to bad tippers.

And Europeans even if they are informed of the deal here in America on their reciept in 12 languages, won't tip. South Americans too. Brazillians for instance tip like ass.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

forget about tipping, NBA players don't even pay their tabs. One of my friends worked at Ra (a chain sushi restaurant) and had the entire Suns team go to dinner there and all four tables of Suns players walked out on the check. She was about to cry because not only did she get stiffed on 3 tables, they were there through dinner rush so she only had like six other tables throughout the night. She was looking at losing money working that night (she still had to tip out the bus boy and bartender on their tabs)

I guess they always send a pr person to contain stories and whatnot and she came up to my friend to ask how her boys treated her. She turned around crying and told her that they all stiffed her. The pr chick used the corporate Suns card and paid for all of the checks plus like a 30% gratuity. That's a rare happy ending to them going out. Usually it ends in no tip no money that night.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Or maybe she was there to pay anyway :sarcasm:


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Who does tip well then?


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

It's funny because stars get used to not having to pay for things, so they get mixed signals. These guys never have to pay for anything. Free shoes, free clothes, free food, etc. Chris Paul was eating at an Applebees around here a couple years ago and the owner waved his bill. I can imagine this is not uncommon. Some owners/managers will wave the bill, and some will think it's ridiculous given that they're millionaires. I can see though how players would develop a sense of entitlement in these situations. That doesn't make it right by any means, but I believe the way the media/fans/general public treats celebrities actually aids in these guys developing rotten habits.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> My roommate used to be a server in Miami. Trust me I know what I'm talking about when it comes to bad tippers.
> 
> And Europeans even if they are informed of the deal here in America on their reciept in 12 languages, won't tip. South Americans too. Brazillians for instance tip like ass.


I've been all around Europe and to Brazil. Those countries have a very different tipping culture than America does. Differences in cultures among countries isn't really what I'm referring to here. Lebron regularly disrespects service workers at places he visits.

Whatever though, this is kind of getting away from my original point, which wasn't as much about tipping as the way that he treated the people in Cleveland while he was here. In general, it wasn't good, I can assure you of that.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Jakain said:


> Who does tip well then?


I tip like a god damn champ.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Ron said:


> I love the part where DiMaggio was so cheap that he wouldn't pay for a car wash; when it would rain he would run to his car and drive around a while. :laugh:


My favourite story was the one about how a waitress asked for his autograph and he stiffed her on the check on the grounds that she should be able to sell the autograph and cover the bill. :laugh:


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Jakain said:


> Who does tip well then?


Oddly enough, working class folk, wait staff (they're great tippers), office workers. Not lawyers, though. They're the ****ing worst. I remember allowing a lawyer to split a cab with me because he was going in the same direction and was in a hurry, when we stopped by his office the fare was $9.75 and he handed the driver a ten with an oh-so-generous "Keep the change." Way back during my college years I was the assistant manager of a restaurant in Boston's financial district, and the waitresses used to fight to keep the lawyers out of their sections, because they'd tip a dollar or two per table and always loitered longer than the office grunts who left 20%.


----------



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

I'm a big tipper because in a past life I was a waiter and worked a lot in the food industry, so I know how hard they work and they get **** from customers for it.

Women I went out with always thought I tipped too much. But women as a general rule are awful tippers. Its ironic because they are the ones who are always asking the earth and sky of waiters and waitresses. Go figure.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

In your past life?


----------



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

R-Star said:


> In your past life?


Yeah, I'm old enough to have a past life. :|

Maybe I should have said, "a long long time ago, in a faraway land..."


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Ron said:


> Yeah, I'm old enough to have a past life. :|
> 
> Maybe I should have said, "a long long time ago, in a faraway land..."


Do you actually mean in another life, or just a long time ago?


----------



## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

When I worked as a pizza delivery driver the absolute best tippers were Mexicans. Guys who you could tell worked manual labor and sometimes would be ordering a couple pizzas for their family. You could tell that they appreciate hard work. I have tons of respect for those people. Not only did they tip better than rich white people on average but relative to their income they tipped ten times better. Can't tell you how many rich white people gave me the Joe DiMaggio treatment.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Adam said:


> When I worked as a pizza delivery driver the absolute best tippers were Mexicans. Guys who you could tell worked manual labor and sometimes would be ordering a couple pizzas for their family. You could tell that they appreciate hard work. I have tons of respect for those people. Not only did they tip better than rich white people on average but relative to their income they tipped ten times better. Can't tell you how many rich white people gave me the Joe DiMaggio treatment.


Appreciate hard work? Pizza delivery isn't hard work.


----------



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

R-Star said:


> Do you actually mean in another life, or just a long time ago?


A long, long, long, long time ago.

Too ****ing long.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Ron said:


> A long, long, long, long time ago.
> 
> Too ****ing long.


If you bring me a sandwich or something tasty I will tip you 40%. 

It will be like reliving the good old days.


----------



## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

R-Star said:


> Appreciate hard work? Pizza delivery isn't hard work.


It's food service. All food service is **** work. Maybe it was just where I worked but I didn't just put a box in my car and drive somewhere. I actually had to do pretty much everything at the restaurant as well.

Point is they can relate to that type of work and tip accordingly.


----------



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

R-Star said:


> Appreciate hard work? Pizza delivery isn't hard work.


I have a friend (just a friend, R-Star, don't read too much into this) who wasn't too selective when it came to men.

She ordered a pizza and she met the love of her life (well, for a few weeks anyway).

He wasn't always free to date her, being a hard-working pizza delivery man and all. 

So they would have stolen moments...he would pick up a delivery, speed to her house, bang it out for about 30 minutes, then deliver a cold pizza to some unlucky customer.

When a mutual friend told me that story, I was rolling with tears in my eyes.

Just thought I would share.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Adam said:


> It's food service. All food service is **** work. Maybe it was just where I worked but I didn't just put a box in my car and drive somewhere. I actually had to do pretty much everything at the restaurant as well.
> 
> Point is they can relate to that type of work and tip accordingly.


I can't relate at all other than I worked at McDonalds for 3 months. I tip well, to the point where my wife gets angry. I don't like or agree that white people get type cast as terrible tippers.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Ron said:


> I have a friend (just a friend, R-Star, don't read too much into this) who wasn't too selective when it came to men.
> 
> She ordered a pizza and she met the love of her life (well, for a few weeks anyway).
> 
> ...


I hope he would wash his hands.


----------



## BeeGee (Jul 9, 2010)

Surely, Lebron is just mad that they burned his jersies. Lebron's team aka Maverick Carter is the real bozo behind all of these horrible decisions. He's got Lebron making a complete idiot of himself left & right. I guess next, this clown will have Bron on youtube eating vaseline and crying uncontrollably while listening to gospel music?


----------



## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Adam said:


> It's food service. All food service is **** work. Maybe it was just where I worked but I didn't just put a box in my car and drive somewhere. I actually had to do pretty much everything at the restaurant as well.
> 
> Point is they can relate to that type of work and tip accordingly.


Yeah, I worked at a pizza place and did everything too. Make it, ring them up, deliver. But everyone who ordered was white and they'd tip differently.

I thought the bad tipper stereotype was for Asians, Jews, and Middle Easterners. I disagree that white people in general are bad tippers. Dunno about black folk.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

R-Star said:


> Do you actually mean in another life, or just a long time ago?


At our age college seems like a past life.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

R-Star said:


> I hope he would wash his hands.


What if it was an anchovy pizza?


----------



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> What if it was an anchovy pizza?


:laugh:


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Chan said:


> Yeah, I worked at a pizza place and did everything too. Make it, ring them up, deliver. But everyone who ordered was white and they'd tip differently.
> 
> I thought the bad tipper stereotype was for Asians, Jews, and Middle Easterners. I disagree that white people in general are bad tippers. Dunno about black folk.


Yeah, from my time it seemed to break down by profession. Lawyers and MBAs sucked. Mere brokers were pretty good. The office staff best of all. At the restaurant we had this 70 year old waitress named Lucy that worked the worst section of the restaurant, seating wise (the counter bay right by the kitchen, so it was always noisy and the seats all sucked because it was in the back of the restaurant). And pretty much the only people that used that section were the office grunts there for a quick lunch. I had no idea how much money she made doing it until she called in sick one day, and there was no one else to cover the section so I had to work it for the lunch rush and pocketed $110 for about three hours work. Which was the _daily_ take for the women that worked the actual tables up front, where all the lawyers, analysts and high paid people sat.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

R-Star said:


> I can't relate at all other than I worked at McDonalds for 3 months. I tip well, to the point where my wife gets angry. I don't like or agree that white people get type cast as terrible tippers.


white people are the only people who tip.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

R-Star said:


> I can't relate at all other than I worked at McDonalds for 3 months. I tip well, to the point where my wife gets angry. I don't like or agree that white people get type cast as terrible tippers.


I always thought it was black people who have a reputation for being poor tippers. Maybe someone in food service could clear that up (the reputation part).


----------



## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

Brandname said:


> I see that, in addition to me, all of the other Cleveland fans have vacated the boards over the past year, so maybe there hasn't been much coming from our point of view. But the anger towards Lebron started long before "The Decision", and it had nothing to do with free agency at all.
> 
> As anyone who watched the game knows, Game 5 of the Celtics series was an event that blindsided Cleveland fans. What we saw in the game changed our perception of Lebron permanently, whether he was going to stay or not. What we saw in that game was a superstar who quit on his teammates, his coaching staff, and his fans. We can forgive poor performances (contrary to what Lebron believes, yes he's had more than 3 of them in 7 years). We can forgive exhaustion. What we can't forgive is quitting. And that's exactly what happened in that game. He didn't even bring anything to the table that game, and every Cavs fan in the nation sat stunned in front of his TV in complete bewilderment as to what we were witnessing. This is a feeling none of us had ever experienced before, and it was literally the most painful experience I've ever had as a sports fan. We felt sabotaged. And who knows, maybe we were.


You can never prove that he 'quit'. My gut says yeah, maybe he did quit on his teammates, because Delonte was banging his mom and he was the only one in the locker room who wasn't aware of it. He felt betrayed by them, so he betrayed them. But you can't ever really prove it. You say 'quit', his supporters will say 'fatigued' or 'distracted'. Your ultimate opinion will only be formed by bias. Plus, him dragging Daniel Gibson and Drew Gooden to the NBA Finals one year has to offset some of that. He did a lot more with a lot less than any star I can remember. He quit at the end, maybe, but Cleveland got more than they should have ever received with the dog**** supporting cast they gave him year in and year out.

Letting the fans down is slimy, I'll admit, but they pretty much collateral damage stemming LeBron's unwillingness to go to battle with people who he felt were stabbing him in the back. That's definitely the worst (actually, the only) crime he committed throughout this process.



> Fast forward to after we lose the series. In the postgame press conference, Lebron starts talking about the plan his team is going to execute in the offseason. Only, he's not talking about the Cavs. He's talking about LRMR. He doesn't feel bad about the loss. It doesn't even seem to be much of a thought in his mind. On top of quitting, it was basically a slap in the face to every Cavs fan who cared so much about this playoff run -- every Cavs fan who had spent a large portion of their very moderate income to go and cheer him and the team on (and ultimately pay his salary). Despite this, we were ready to support him if he came back, even though there was a bit of a sore spot from this incident.


If he did quit, would he really feel bad about it? In the postgame press conference? Come on, you can't hold both that and the game itself against him as seperate charges.

You seem to be pretty intelligent about this, and it's nice to see someone actually have a handle on what they're arguing against LeBron for once, instead of just spouting ****, but I'm about 95% sure that this has never even crossed the mind of that same percentage of Cleveland fans. I think it's painfully obvious that they just hate him because he left them.



> No, the problem that we would have had is the fact that he quit on us before he left. All we ask is that you give it your all while you're with us and do what you can to win. That's why we give you so much of our money to see you play. That's why you can make huge amounts of cast playing a sport. He broke that fan/player trust in that series, and skipping town afterward would have negated the forgiveness we were willing to offer for quitting.


I watched Manny Ramirez play in Boston. No player has ever given less effort on a regular basis than Manny Ramirez. Yet he produced, and I have zero ill will towards him. 
I've also experienced what I thought was 'betrayal' when Johnny Damon left the Red Sox. Being the clown I was back then, I felt betrayed and conned, especially since he left for my most hated team (then, now I know that hating teams for the hell of it is really pointless and stupid) after saying in May that he never would. Back then I was incensed, but I now I could care less. If he had a talent for getting on base, I'd welcome him back with open arms. Then again, I was 16 when that happened, and all sorts of grown-ass Cleveland fans across Ohio are acting worse than I did when I ranted about what a poo-head Damon was. Granted, Ramirez wasn't and Damon definitely wasn't equal to what LeBron was to Cleveland, but you get the picture.

They need to move on. Mike Holmgren's running the Browns now, they're in good hands.

Also, don't act like anything close to the majority of his fortune came from Cleveland fans. There was a LeBron commercial on TV every 5 minutes since he was drafted.



> "The Decision", however, blindsided us. When it was announced, I'd never been more confident he would stay. Who the **** would go on national tv to kick the people who supported him for so long in the face? You people here know how we felt about him. He was the best thing to happen to Cleveland sports in a long time, and we supported him despite all of the ****ty things he did as a person during his time in Cleveland (yes I realize that was a mistake now). Point is, we have some of the most loyal fans in the country. But we don't respond kindly to getting **** on.


Oh please. As I said, all The Decision did was provide a vehicle for Cleveland to justify what would have been (and still is, to anyone paying attention) senseless whining. Cleveland would have felt 'kicked in the face' if LeBron declared a worldwide TV special or just tweeted his decision at 2 in the morning on a random Thursday. There's no way around it. Even if he had given his all in Game 5 and all games thereafter (that team was never winning the title), if he bolted Cleveland when the run was over, they'd still be bitching mindlessly. Pretty much everything I've seen or heard on Cleveland blogs, Cleveland message boards, Cleveland newspapers, Cleveland radio snippets they aired on TV... it leaves very little doubt in my mind that was only one reaction on the docket if LeBron left Cleveland, no matter how it ultimately happened, and we're seeing it now.

Funny how I hear about how New York, New Jersey, or Chicago were 'betrayed' or 'kicked in the face' by The Decision. They lost the race too. Only poor old Cleveland was considered to have been 'kicked in the face' by that TV special. Hell, the letdown's partly their own fault for drinking the kool-aid that was leaking from mostly unconfirmed sources about LeBron's thoughts, and for being naive enough to believe that 'he could never leave us like that'.

This doesn't have much to do with what you wrote, but I can't ever remember him choosing Cleveland, either. Cleveland chose him. Cleveland drafted him, he didn't draft Cleveland. Two months beforehand, LeBron was at a Detroit playoff game wearing... what? He wasn't rocking a Ricky Davis or Darius Miles jersey. It was a Bulls jersey. For all any of us know, he was plotting his escape from the get go. He probably never wanted to be in Cleveland, and only signed an extension for the sole purpose of synchronizing his free agency with Wade and Bosh.



> If you think this kind of backlash would have happened if he had handled the situation with class and civility, then I'm not sure what to say other than you clearly have no idea how Cleveland fans feel. None.


Can only work with what they're giving me.



> And you absolutely don't have any place to call Cleveland fans idiots.


Obviously not the whole fanbase, but the majority. They're giving me plenty of ammunition. Especially that Goldhammer retard.



R-Star said:


> Floods? Yea, he is.


 I'll accept your surrender however you want to phrase it, slugger.


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

What is funny is all the praise KD got for his humble tweet. Can you imagine how much LeBron would have been blown up if he had simply tweeted: "I'll be signing with the Miami Heat to play with Wade and Bosh." He would have been called cold and heartless. Cleveland fans would be on here whining that he didn't have the guts to face a camera and tell us his decision.
*
THERE WAS NO WAY FOR HIM TO LEAVE CLEVELAND WITHOUT THEM BEING HURT!*

Cleveland is the nerdy kid who got to date the supermodel for 7 years and got the bad news that she finally decided she wanted a jock. Cleveland knows they will never get another LeBron.

All I am saying is that with all the post-decision talk about their disgust with LeBron, I don't recall a single Cleveland fan saying they hoped LeBron wouldn't resign because he is an A-hole. So why is it such a big deal now?

LMAO off at being upset because of the way a millionaire supposedly treats service people. GTFO with that weaksauce.


----------



## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

I'm a waiter now. You Americans tip the best, when i hear an American accent i am all over that. Asians are undoubtedly the worst, never ever tip. Aussies are okay, Europeans are okay, big muscly Lebanese guys are good, Russians are usually good, Turkish are okay


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> What is funny is all the praise KD got for his humble tweet. Can you imagine how much LeBron would have been blown up if he had simply tweeted: "I'll be signing with the Miami Heat to play with Wade and Bosh." He would have been called cold and heartless. Cleveland fans would be on here whining that he didn't have the guts to face a camera and tell us his decision.
> *
> THERE WAS NO WAY FOR HIM TO LEAVE CLEVELAND WITHOUT THEM BEING HURT!*
> 
> ...


Dude. Your a fan of Memphis. ****ing Memphis. Unless you're Elvis, you guys are ****ing losers. So maybe you should calm down a bit with the Cleveland metaphors.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Tersk said:


> I'm a waiter now. You Americans tip the best, when i hear an American accent i am all over that. Asians are undoubtedly the worst, never ever tip. Aussies are okay, Europeans are okay, big muscly Lebanese guys are good, Russians are usually good, Turkish are okay


Canadians are the best.


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

R-Star said:


> Dude. Your a fan of Memphis. ****ing Memphis. Unless you're Elvis, you guys are ****ing losers. So maybe you should calm down a bit with the Cleveland metaphors.


...uh.


----------



## Gx (May 24, 2006)

R-Star said:


> Dude. Your a fan of Memphis. ****ing Memphis. Unless you're Elvis, you guys are ****ing losers. So maybe you should calm down a bit with the Cleveland metaphors.


... what?


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

You're right. I take that back. I remember the last big name free agent to go to Memphis.....


Memphis stinks.


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

R-Star said:


> You're right. I take that back. I remember the last big name free agent to go to Memphis.....
> 
> 
> Memphis stinks.


You stink. Like poop.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

R-Star said:


> Canadians are the best.


Sorry, the Quebecois are so bad that they offset the modest tipping that the rest of the Canuckians do.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

R-Star said:


> Dude. Your a fan of Memphis. ****ing Memphis. Unless you're Elvis, you guys are ****ing losers. So maybe you should calm down a bit with the Cleveland metaphors.


Anywhere in the US > Canada.


----------



## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Brandname said:


> I always thought it was black people who have a reputation for being poor tippers. Maybe someone in food service could clear that up (the reputation part).


Yeah I would like someone to do that too.

Because I hate that reputation. 

I am a notoriously good tipper. If you really do a good job I have no problem tipping up to 25%, depending on the bill.

But I think some waiters assume I'll be a poor tipper and give me subpar service, which then leads to - a poor tip!


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> Sorry, the Quebecois are so bad that they offset the modest tipping that the rest of the Canuckians do.


Quebecois are our version of illegal immigrants. My plan when I become Prime Minister is to allow them to secede and become their own country, and as soon as the paperwork is signed I'll invade the **** out of them and crush them under my boot heel. Any time they get out of line after that there will just be large billboards of me all around Quebec showing me raising the back of my hand.

One day I will slowly begin to solve all of the worlds problems. I will start with my homeland of Canada, and filthy Quebecois are our biggest concern. Lazy ****ing french refusing to speak English, always having their hands out for more and more money..........


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Hyperion said:


> Anywhere in the US > Canada.


Most organizations that make a living ranking the top places to live in the world would seem to disagree.

But yea... we'll take your word for it instead.

The quality of life in Canada is better. Name one thing you can do that I can not. I trade being able to shoot the mailman in the knee cap because I thought he was black, for cold weather. Its a rough payoff, but I think Canada will manage. I know the mailmen like it up here better.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

R-Star said:


> Most organizations that make a living ranking the top places to live in the world would seem to disagree.
> 
> But yea... we'll take your word for it instead.
> 
> The quality of life in Canada is better. *Name one thing you can do that I can not*. I trade being able to shoot the mailman in the knee cap because I thought he was black, for cold weather. Its a rough payoff, but I think Canada will manage. I know the mailmen like it up here better.


Go to a Grizzlies game, have summer, swim in the ocean, be on Wheel of Fortune, drink cheap beer (cost not quality but quality too), smoke cheap smokes, and of course shoot the mailman in the knee. If mailmen like Canada more, then why does America have so many more than Canada? It's because they hate rain, sleet, hail, and snow also called Canada's 4 seasons.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

R-Star said:


> Most organizations that make a living ranking the top places to live in the world would seem to disagree.
> 
> But yea... we'll take your word for it instead.
> 
> The quality of life in Canada is better. Name one thing you can do that I can not. I trade being able to shoot the mailman in the knee cap because I thought he was black, for cold weather. Its a rough payoff, but I think Canada will manage. I know the mailmen like it up here better.


One, the worst part about America is that our beaches are full of fat, hairy Canuckians in speedos here to enjoy the climate. Two, American mailmen would hate Canuckia because they wouldn't be allowed to pack heat at work.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Floods said:


> You can never prove that he 'quit'. My gut says yeah, maybe he did quit on his teammates, because Delonte was banging his mom and he was the only one in the locker room who wasn't aware of it. He felt betrayed by them, so he betrayed them. But you can't ever really prove it. You say 'quit', his supporters will say 'fatigued' or 'distracted'. Your ultimate opinion will only be formed by bias. Plus, him dragging Daniel Gibson and Drew Gooden to the NBA Finals one year has to offset some of that. He did a lot more with a lot less than any star I can remember. He quit at the end, maybe, but Cleveland got more than they should have ever received with the dog**** supporting cast they gave him year in and year out.
> 
> Letting the fans down is slimy, I'll admit, but they pretty much collateral damage stemming LeBron's unwillingness to go to battle with people who he felt were stabbing him in the back. That's definitely the worst (actually, the only) crime he committed throughout this process.
> 
> ...


I've seen a lot of people complaining about his supporting cast, laying it all on the front office. But a lot of that is on him too. He refused to recruit for most of the time he was in Cleveland, and it was this refusal that was a big reason we lost out on some free agents. We tried to sign Trevor Ariza, but Lebron wouldn't help recruit him, so he went to Houston. There are other examples, too, but he's changed his tune since going to Miami. As one Western Conference executive put it: "LeBron has done more recruiting in the last five days than he did in the last 3 years" shortly after he signed with Miami. 

If he didn't want to be in Cleveland, that's fine. But he definitely shares part of the blame for the poor supporting cast. 

And don't judge Cleveland by the radio hosts. ALL of Cleveland's radio hosts are idiots, and this was pretty popular opinion long before any of this came about. Goldhammer is a moron.



Most of all, I can't believe I'm actually sitting here arguing with you and MemphisX about how *we Cleveland fans* would feel in a certain hypothetical situation.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

MemphisX said:


> What is funny is all the praise KD got for his humble tweet. Can you imagine how much LeBron would have been blown up if he had simply tweeted: "I'll be signing with the Miami Heat to play with Wade and Bosh." He would have been called cold and heartless. Cleveland fans would be on here whining that he didn't have the guts to face a camera and tell us his decision.
> *
> THERE WAS NO WAY FOR HIM TO LEAVE CLEVELAND WITHOUT THEM BEING HURT!*
> 
> ...


Yeah, you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.



> LMAO off at being upset because of the way a millionaire supposedly treats service people. GTFO with that weaksauce.


Do you have some vision of me staying up at night crying because of the way he treats service workers? lol. I said it's evidence that he's an *******. Bend over backwards to defend it if you want, but it's true.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Like I said before, Lebron is a dick. we all knew he was a dick. So what? He went to a different team. he didn't blow up the franchise. It's not his fault he was the franchise. He left, the response was hilarious, the owner's response was pathetic, and now the Cavs' fans have a duty to boo him when he come to town. That's about the extent of their animosity towards James. But this will go down in sports history as as big of a loss as a botched play in a championship game.


----------



## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

Hyperion said:


> white people are the only people who tip.


FOH. Everyone tips because they're legally obliged to.

I do take into account the tip in any situation though. When I order pizza I'd rather drive down to get it instead of delivery, just so I wouldn't have to tip a guy.

I think it's funny that Floods types a whole essay on the Cleveland fans 'senseless whining', from the comfortable position of not-Cleveland. It's like if the Grizzlies was moved, and I typed a whole piece on why Memphis has Elvis and Barbecue and so the fans should be very happy. Floods, if empathy was IQ you would be Radio.










Cleeeeveland's OKAAAYYYYY!!!!


----------



## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> lol, Lebron really doesn't care a lick about the people in Cleveland.


Well ... they showed him how much they cared about him!! He doesn't owe them anything. He gave them more than any other player has ever given them and what did he get when he tried to do something for himself?

Some of you are giving him the same treatment Obama gets from Republicans. No matter what he does or says, it won't be good enough ... you will find something negative to say.

He paid homage where he wanted to from his heart, and that is ok with me. Now, I think he should leave it alone, and move on and let his game do the talking for him. And, by all means treat the media with a long handle spoon, which will be very difficult with the coverage he will be getting in Miami. He should allow those unappreciative 'folks' in Cleveland to began their race to get a championship before he does.

It's Ok LeBron, I AM STILL A FAN ... and I bet I'll have more fun following the Heat than those spending the season hating on you.


----------



## RedsDrunk (Oct 31, 2005)

Question is how long are these scorned Cavs fans going to remain Cavs fans? Sure the victimized fan is something relevant to play this year, but it'll be interesting to see who actually sticks with the squad beyond next season. Bet it'll be less people than at any point Lebron was with the team.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I think they could suprise people with how good they are this year. They have a lot of interesting parts on that team, and if Scott gets the right system going, they could be better than say the Raptors and teams of that ilk. The nets as well. 

They probably have one more trade to make as well though. So who knows what they'll have to start the year.


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Chan said:


> FOH. Everyone tips because they're legally obliged to.
> 
> I do take into account the tip in any situation though. When I order pizza I'd rather drive down to get it instead of delivery, just so I wouldn't have to tip a guy.
> 
> ...


Good god this thread delivers.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

RedsDrunk said:


> Question is how long are these scorned Cavs fans going to remain Cavs fans? Sure the victimized fan is something relevant to play this year, but it'll be interesting to see who actually sticks with the squad beyond next season. Bet it'll be less people than at any point Lebron was with the team.


uh yeah, that's true with any team's fanbase. Every single team's fanbase swells when they're good and diminishes when they're bad (yeah, including whatever your favorite team is). Don't act as if bandwagon fans are unique to Cleveland or something. Watch, Miami will actually have some people in the arena this year, unlike last year.

True Cavs fans will always be Cavs fans, and bandwagon jumpers will go to wherever the next big player/team is.


----------



## Gx (May 24, 2006)

Brandname said:


> uh yeah, that's true with any team's fanbase. Every single team's fanbase swells when they're good and diminishes when they're bad (yeah, including whatever your favorite team is). Don't act as if bandwagon fans are unique to Cleveland or something. Watch, Miami will actually have some people in the arena this year, unlike last year.
> 
> True Cavs fans will always be Cavs fans, and bandwagon jumpers will go to wherever the next big player/team is.


I think the point is, a lot of these people mad at Lebron, didn't give a **** about Cleveland basketball before he came, and won't give a **** in 2 years time. These people shouldn't be bitching at all because they're not true Cavs fans.


----------



## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Gx said:


> I think the point is, a lot of these people mad at Lebron, didn't give a **** about Cleveland basketball before he came, and won't give a **** in 2 years time. These people shouldn't be bitching at all because they're not true Cavs fans.


Most of the people that were here just for Lebron are following him to Miami (i.e. futuristxen).

EDIT - but either way, every team has bandwagon fans like that. Cleveland is no different. Predicting overall fanship to go down when a team goes from championship contender to bottom feeder isn't exactly going out on a limb. It's just the way sports works.


----------



## RedsDrunk (Oct 31, 2005)

Brandname said:


> Most of the people that were here just for Lebron are following him to Miami (i.e. futuristxen).
> 
> EDIT - but either way, every team has bandwagon fans like that. Cleveland is no different. *Predicting overall fanship to go down when a team goes from championship contender to bottom feeder isn't exactly going out on a limb*. It's just the way sports works.


See that wasn't my point though. It would seem to me that there are a number of Bron fans, meaning fans who hadn't paid attention previous to his arrival, who've watched Cleveland over the course of the last 7 years and are now playing the victim with his departure. It may or may not be the case with this particular board, but I've got a few friends who fit the bill who were giving me the "how could he do that to Cleveland speech" to which I replied "you won't give a **** about the Cavs in 6 months." Now that obviously plays into your bandwagoner theory, but it's ones who front like they are going to stay true to the team that I find funny. I was saying it'll be interesting to see who falls on which side of the fence after years of Lebron talk.

You know, now that I think about it I was actually guilty of the same offense when Iverson 1st left the Sixers. So in a way ,I agree ,you are right. It's nothing new. Entertaining to watch though.

Edit: GX pretty much said the same thing. I missed that.


----------



## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Gx said:


> , didn't give a **** about Cleveland basketball before he came, and won't give a **** in 2 years time.


You know this describes Miami as well right? You realize that? 

Outside of the team and the number of years...this is Miami to a tee.


----------



## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

There are very few teams that do well when the team is bad and have no hope. I mean it wasn't too long ago when the C's were near the bottom of attendance, and look at Philly now, they were in the top ten in terms of attendance a few years back, but are at the bottom.

It happens to all franchises, I think. Maybe the Knick and Bull are the only ones who can sellout the place even when they are garbage.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> I think they could suprise people with how good they are this year. They have a lot of interesting parts on that team, and if Scott gets the right system going, they could be better than say the Raptors and teams of that ilk. The nets as well.
> 
> They probably have one more trade to make as well though. So who knows what they'll have to start the year.


The No1 draft pick is about the only way Cleveland is going to win next year. I would be surprised if they won 25 games.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Game3525 said:


> There are very few teams that do well when the team is bad and have no hope. I mean it wasn't too long ago when the C's were near the bottom of attendance, and look at Philly now, they were in the top ten in terms of attendance a few years back, but are at the bottom.
> 
> It happens to all franchises, I think. Maybe the Knick and Bull are the only ones who can sellout the place even when they are garbage.


Yeah the C's chanted MVP for Kobe 4 years ago as well.

If I had to rank fanbases in terms of loyalty-

1. Bulls
2. Knicks
3. Lakers


----------



## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

As far as loyal fans go, Miami has to be near the bottom of the league. they even made the playoffs and barely anyone showed up to the games last season.

I hate that entire franchise, everything from Pat Riley to them retiring Michael Jordan and Dan Marino's numbers. What a lame franchise.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Drewbs said:


> As far as loyal fans go, Miami has to be near the bottom of the league. they even made the playoffs and barely anyone showed up to the games last season.
> 
> I hate that entire franchise, everything from Pat Riley to them retiring Michael Jordan and Dan Marino's numbers. What a lame franchise.


It sickens me that town got a great team handed to them. For the spectacle of introducing the players they packed the arena... hell even the Clippers and Hawks sell out home playoff games every time.


----------



## Gx (May 24, 2006)

Pay Ton said:


> You know this describes Miami as well right? You realize that?
> 
> Outside of the team and the number of years...this is Miami to a tee.


I never said it didn't, but the discussion was on Cleveland fans that are bitching now, when they aren't even true Cavs fans and will be gone in a years time. They have no right to bitch. I don't see how this has anything to do with Miami.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Hyperion said:


> The No1 draft pick is about the only way Cleveland is going to win next year. I would be surprised if they won 25 games.


Byron Scott is a very good coach in his 1st or 2nd year with teams. He typically loses teams when players lose interest in him. Happened with the Nets and the Hornets, both who experienced a high right at first, then dropped off when the players lost interest. Cavs won't make the playoffs or anything, but they might be more competitive than people think. Maybe 30-35 wins, even close to 40 if they catch teams off-guard.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> Yeah the C's chanted MVP for Kobe 4 years ago as well.
> 
> If I had to rank fanbases in terms of loyalty-
> 
> ...


You mean GS, POR, and NY right?


----------



## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Bulls and Lakers fans are more loyal then Blazers and Warriors fans, the Bulls were selling out arenas even in the early days of the post Jordan era, and LA is clearly a Lakers town, and they do really well in attendance even though ticket prices are very high.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Game3525 said:


> Bulls and Lakers fans are more loyal then Blazers and Warriors fans, the Bulls were selling out arenas even in the early days of the post Jordan era, and LA is clearly a Lakers town, and they do really well in attendance even though ticket prices are very high.


Dude, LaRue Martin was a folk hero in Portland, Their fans are there because they love the team, not because it's the place to be seen. They're the NBA's equivalent of college football fans.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Game3525 said:


> Bulls and Lakers fans are more loyal then Blazers and Warriors fans, the Bulls were selling out arenas even in the early days of the post Jordan era, and LA is clearly a Lakers town, and they do really well in attendance even though ticket prices are very high.


Everything in LA is more expensive. I would rank the teams that have sold out arenas while being a lottery team as having the best bases. Utah, GS, and Portland have to rank at the top. No rings and no contender teams yet they keep coming to the games? That's loyalty.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Hyperion said:


> Everything in LA is more expensive. I would rank the teams that have sold out arenas while being a lottery team as having the best bases. Utah, GS, and Portland have to rank at the top. No rings and no contender teams yet they keep coming to the games? That's loyalty.


How many times has Utah been in the lottery? Once?

The Lakers had great sell out numbers in 05 as well. Hell compare that to Utah or Portland's figures in 04.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Imo its hard to value selling out arena's as well since those numbers seem to be misleading especially if the team's owned by a passionate and wealthy owner like Mark Cuban who seems to buy out the unsold seats.

Anway FWIW here's a recent Forbes list of America's Best Sports Fans, bolded are the NBA teams:


> Criteria: For each team, we gathered three different metrics. First, we measured their home and away game attendance, which indicates a team’s drawing power in its home market and nationwide. Then we counted their merchandise sales (Numbers for the NFL, NBA and MLB were provided to us by Sportsonesource, a sporting good industry analyst, and the NHL gave us their own data). Finally, we ranked each team’s in-market popularity, based on surveys of American sports teams by Turnkey Sports and Entertainment. We ranked all of the teams, then took the top four from each of the four leagues.
> 
> Forbes list of America's Best Sports Fans
> 
> ...


I'm surprised to see Cleveland up there but not too surprised to see the Spurs, Celtics, and Lakers on that list.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

QUOTE=Jamel Irief;6345630]How many times has Utah been in the lottery? Once?

The Lakers had great sell out numbers in 05 as well. Hell compare that to Utah or Portland's figures in 04.[/QUOTE]

Did you just pull up the lottery argument and then talk about the lakers in the same point? Also, look up the population on the LA metro area and the look up portland and SLC. I'm willing to bet LA is bigger than both of them combined. Couple that with the fact that they've always had a superstar or two on their roster and the talent outweighs the attendance imo.


----------



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Jakain said:


> Imo its hard to value selling out arena's as well since those numbers seem to be misleading especially if the team's owned by a passionate and wealthy owner like Mark Cuban who seems to buy out the unsold seats.
> 
> Anway FWIW here's a recent Forbes list of America's Best Sports Fans, bolded are the NBA teams:
> 
> ...


That list is skewed because they are taking the top four teams from each league!

Everyone knows ice hockey isn't nearly as popular as the other three North American leagues...they had to do some major manipulation to get those hockey teams that high up on the list...I don't think you can determine a team's loyal fan base that way, if you are going to skew the results...the other metrics they used seem reasonable.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Ron said:


> That list is skewed because they are taking the top four teams from each league!
> 
> Everyone knows ice hockey isn't nearly as popular as the other three North American leagues...they had to do some major manipulation to get those hockey teams that high up on the list...I don't think you can determine a team's loyal fan base that way, if you are going to skew the results...the other metrics they used seem reasonable.


Yea the article's pretty vague but their criteria seemed all right but it does boost hockey's popularity, just need the damn details and numbers but that wouldn't look good on their slideshow format I suppose. However maybe those hockey fans are better per capita?


----------



## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

The Phillie fans shouldn't even be on that list, they are selling out because they are winning now, they are alot like the 76ers, if they do well the place is packed, but when they are crap they it is whole different story. If anything the Flyers seem to have the most loyal fanbase in Philly.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Ron said:


> That list is skewed because they are taking the top four teams from each league!
> 
> Everyone knows ice hockey isn't nearly as popular as the other three North American leagues...they had to do some major manipulation to get those hockey teams that high up on the list...I don't think you can determine a team's loyal fan base that way, if you are going to skew the results...the other metrics they used seem reasonable.


It's not skewed because they aren't measuring numbers of fans but fan loyalty. If they were measuring numbers of fans in total I doubt that any team outside the Boston Red Sox would make the list of the most popular NFL teams (since that's essentially what the resulting list would be).


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Jakain said:


> Imo its hard to value selling out arena's as well since those numbers seem to be misleading especially if the team's owned by a passionate and wealthy owner like Mark Cuban who seems to buy out the unsold seats.
> 
> Anway FWIW here's a recent Forbes list of America's Best Sports Fans, bolded are the NBA teams:
> 
> ...


Cleveland and SAntonio should not be anywhere near the top. San Antonio fans have had it easy since 1989 when David Robinson came. Cleveland was dead last in attendance Pre-LeBron.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I think the saddest thing about the list is just how badly Delaware North has demolished the Bruins brand over the years (Walter Brown owned both the Celtics and Bruins until his death in the early 70s). Boston was, forever, a Bruins town, far more so than a Red Sox one. The Red Sox didn't really begin to change that until the 1967 season. It didn't really change for good until their near equally improbable trip to the '75 world series. 

When I was a kid Red Sox season was still largely what we did while waiting for hockey to start up again. The Winnepeg Jets players used to hate Boston visits because the Bruins would have more fans than they did in the stands (though the owners probably loved those games). Way back in the day a visit from the Big Bad Bruins used to assure even the worst teams of a sell-out. Now they're not even the most popular hockey team in Boston (that's probably the BU Terriers). 

Jeremy Jacobs finally agreed to open his wallet, after being the guiding force behind the NHL's salary cap, but it's really too little too late. He should just accept the fact that the team's glory days, popularity-wise, aren't ever returning so long as he owns them.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

MemphisX said:


> Cleveland and SAntonio should not be anywhere near the top. San Antonio fans have had it easy since 1989 when David Robinson came. Cleveland was dead last in attendance Pre-LeBron.


They're on the list for the same reason the Lakers are.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

MemphisX said:


> Cleveland and SAntonio should not be anywhere near the top. San Antonio fans have had it easy since 1989 when David Robinson came. Cleveland was dead last in attendance Pre-LeBron.


Sorry this seems like bad logic to me. If SA doesn't belong there because they had it "easy" since D-Rob then doesn't that mean every successful and winning franchise with HOFers shouldn't be up there especially the Lakers? And the criteria Forbes listed gives the impression that its more of a recent take than not although I agree a franchise's past history can have a huge effect today.


----------



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

*LeBron Not Only Shows Up For Akron Event But Doesn't Get Booed Into Oblivion*

The author is linking a bunch of tweets from someone called CavsInsider but it appears that extra security wasn't needed after all.

Plus much is made of Akron not being Cleveland yada yada but some of the comments directly challenge the blog write on this issue...

It's interesting if he finally did thank Cleveland, almost one month to the day of the "The Decision." :|


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Hyperion said:


> QUOTE=Jamel Irief;6345630]
> 
> Did you just pull up the lottery argument and then talk about the lakers in the same point? Also, look up the population on the LA metro area and the look up portland and SLC. I'm willing to bet LA is bigger than both of them combined. Couple that with the fact that they've always had a superstar or two on their roster and the talent outweighs the attendance imo.


You're argument was that Utah had great sellout numbers in lottery seasons. Since I only recalled one or two lottery seasons from them I questioned whether that even meant anything, and then pointed out that the Lakers performed better in their last lottery season.

So essentially you had no argument and switched to the superstar argument. I would then respond with the Lakers attendance figures for 5 seasons when they barely had a 15 ppg scorer (91-96).


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

You could try to do that, and I understand why you'd use the Magic Johnson-led NBA Finals loser 1991 Lakers as your starting point, but what you'd find is that the Lakers attendance declined precipitously until _they became a title contender again_. They couldn't even crack the top ten in attendance after signing Shaq. (I forget where they finished exactly, it was somewhere in the middle of the pack, but it was that that earned LA its reputation as king of the frontrunner fanbases.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Ron said:


> It's interesting if he finally did thank Cleveland, almost one month to the day of the "The Decision." :|


He also did it in person, face to face. Not through a press release, to little fan fair. Which probably says something okay about him and bad about his PR people.


----------



## BeeGee (Jul 9, 2010)

E.H. Munro said:


> You could try to do that, and I understand why you'd use the Magic Johnson-led NBA Finals loser 1991 Lakers as your starting point, but what you'd find is that the Lakers attendance declined precipitously until _they became a title contender again_. They couldn't even crack the top ten in attendance after signing Shaq. (I forget where they finished exactly, it was somewhere in the middle of the pack, but it was that that earned LA its reputation as king of the frontrunner fanbases.


They were 15th that year. Shaq also missed 31 games (not sure how many home games). 

Frontrunning home fans that don't pin their lives to their sports team is not necessarily an indicator of a frontrunning fanbase. Especially a fanbase like the Lakers' that has no geographical boundaries. Lotta loyal Laker fans everywhere and it's just a huge fanbase, period. Even the year before Shaq arrived, they were 3rd in road attendance behind Chicago and Orlando. Los Angelans are definitely spoiled though. Attendance was horrible in the 94-95 season and that team finished 5th in the West. Of course, the capacity increased with the extra 1500 (or so) seats in Staples, and we've been pretty max ever since.


----------



## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

I think he chose to give his little thank you from Akron because that's more of a neutral ground for him.

But honestly even if you despised an NBA player if you see them in real life you wouldn't go and walk the opposite direction.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> You could try to do that, and I understand why you'd use the Magic Johnson-led NBA Finals loser 1991 Lakers as your starting point, but what you'd find is that the Lakers attendance declined precipitously until _they became a title contender again_. They couldn't even crack the top ten in attendance after signing Shaq. (I forget where they finished exactly, it was somewhere in the middle of the pack, but it was that that earned LA its reputation as king of the frontrunner fanbases.


I don't have the numbers, I was trying to go off memory. Do you have them somewhere?


----------



## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Lakers attendance rankings from basketball-reference.com

1993: 12
1994: 22
1995: 23
1996: 23
1997: 13
1998: 17
1999: 12
2000: 7
2001: 8
2002: 8


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Pimped Out said:


> Lakers attendance rankings from basketball-reference.com
> 
> 1993: 12
> 1994: 22
> ...


Is that percentage of seating capacity or attendees?


----------



## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> Is that percentage of seating capacity or attendees?


attendees


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> You're argument was that Utah had great sellout numbers in lottery seasons. Since I only recalled one or two lottery seasons from them I questioned whether that even meant anything, and then pointed out that the Lakers performed better in their last lottery season.
> 
> So essentially you had no argument and switched to the superstar argument. I would then respond with the Lakers attendance figures for 5 seasons when they barely had a 15 ppg scorer (91-96).


No, my argument was that fanbases of teams who are stuck in contending purgatory who still sell out have the best fanbases. When a team wins 40 games, they're not expected to win it all nor go deep into the playoffs yet the fans go to every game even though they're not that good. That's fan loyalty. Then I pointed out that the Lakers, while not a championship team, had the best player in the NBA playing for them. On top of that, it was a year after a championship. 



Pimped Out said:


> Lakers attendance rankings from basketball-reference.com
> 
> 1993: 12
> 1994: 22
> ...


Thank you. Must spread rep.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Pimped Out said:


> attendees


The forum sat almost 4,000 people less than Staples.


----------



## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> The forum sat almost 4,000 people less than Staples.


that doesnt explain the 170k drop when comparing 1990 to 1994.

Your 4000 number also seems inaccurate since the 1990 lakers sat 17,400 per game and the 2010 lakers sat 19,000.


----------



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Staples Center/Forum capacity:

Basketball: 19,079/17,505

Hockey: 18,118/16,005


----------



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Hyperion said:


> No, my argument was that fanbases of teams who are stuck in contending purgatory who still sell out have the best fanbases. When a team wins 40 games, they're not expected to win it all nor go deep into the playoffs yet the fans go to every game even though they're not that good. That's fan loyalty. Then I pointed out that the Lakers, while not a championship team, had the best player in the NBA playing for them. On top of that, it was a year after a championship.
> 
> 
> Thank you. Must spread rep.


Attendance has nothing to do with having the best fanbase. There are literally tens of millions of Laker fans across the country. What this study / summary doesn't take into account is the outrageous costs at Staples.

Every single Laker game is on TV here. Millions watch every game. Just because fans don't go to the games doesn't mean they aren't loyal. I rarely get to a game myself, and I have been watching this team continuously forever. (It depresses me to keep repeating the number of years I have watched so I give up.  )


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Ron said:


> Attendance has nothing to do with having the best fanbase. There are literally tens of millions of Laker fans across the country. What this study / summary doesn't take into account is the outrageous costs at Staples.
> 
> Every single Laker game is on TV here. Millions watch every game. Just because fans don't go to the games doesn't mean they aren't loyal. I rarely get to a game myself, and I have been watching this team continuously forever. (It depresses me to keep repeating the number of years I have watched so I give up.  )


I'm not saying lakers fans aren't loyal. I'm merely pointing out that portland, jazz, and warrior fans are the most loyal fanbases.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Pimped Out said:


> that doesnt explain the 170k drop when comparing 1990 to 1994.
> 
> Your 4000 number also seems inaccurate since the 1990 lakers sat 17,400 per game and the 2010 lakers sat 19,000.


We were talking about in comparison to other lottery teams though (such as 94 Lakers vs 05 Jazz or Blazers) and to get accurate numbers percentage is what you need. The Spurs played in a Dome with a huge curtain for example.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Hyperion said:


> No, my argument was that fanbases of teams who are stuck in contending purgatory who still sell out have the best fanbases. When a team wins 40 games, they're not expected to win it all nor go deep into the playoffs yet the fans go to every game even though they're not that good. That's fan loyalty. Then I pointed out that the Lakers, while not a championship team, had the best player in the NBA playing for them. On top of that, it was a year after a championship.


That's not what you said though, you merely said lottery teams. Also, the Lakers did not win a championship prior to any of the two years they were in the lottery. The Lakers had better attendance numbers then the Blazers and Jazz when all 3 missed the playoffs in 05, and the Blazers were dead last in 06. Granted that's based on Pimp's volume of attendee numbers.


----------



## BeeGee (Jul 9, 2010)

Hyperion said:


> I'm not saying lakers fans aren't loyal. I'm merely pointing out that portland, jazz, and warrior fans are the most loyal fanbases.


Basically, the smaller your fanbase is, the more "loyal" it's gonna appear (more or less). 

The more successful you are, the more widespread you become, the more bandwagoneers you accumulate, the less "loyal" your fanbase appears.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> That's not what you said though, you merely said lottery teams. Also, the Lakers did not win a championship prior to any of the two years they were in the lottery. The Lakers had better attendance numbers then the Blazers and Jazz when all 3 missed the playoffs in 05, and the Blazers were dead last in 06. Granted that's based on Pimp's volume of attendee numbers.


And look at who was headlining the teams. 



BeeGee said:


> Basically, the smaller your fanbase is, the more "loyal" it's gonna appear (more or less).
> 
> The more successful you are, the more widespread you become, the more bandwagoneers you accumulate, the less "loyal" your fanbase appears.


Yes, twist my words until they don't make sense. No, loyalty is selling out an arena when your team is not contending. It has been well documented that the Blazers and Warriors have the most loyal fans in the league. Utah's fans are so crazy that they will stab someone if it means the team wins a game. Truly the three last vestiges of pure fandom, where any call against the home team makes you think that this is the moment they revolt against the refs and they don't make it out alive. 

As for the Lakers, if you can't sell out an arena with 12 million people living in your city, maybe the fan base isn't as big as you thought and the people just like a winner. The same goes for NY.


----------

