# Smith : With Deng's Touch, Is He Un'Touch'able?



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

With Deng's touch, is he untouchable?

Emerging as team's top player, young forward providing reasons to stay

February 12, 2007

PHOENIX -- The Bulls' coaches were discussing Sunday night's 116-103 victory over the Suns in the few minutes before the locker room is opened to reporters and the players begin leaving.

The win to conclude the last extended Western Conference trip of the season was a relief. The Bulls went 3-4 and now play six of their next nine at home, starting Tuesday night against the Toronto Raptors.


Games usually are something of a blur, especially against the Suns. The Bulls had just finished two games against the most wide-open teams in the league, averaging almost 119 points per game, 20 above their season average.

There was much to discuss, such as Kirk Hinrich's brilliant fourth quarter, in which he scored 14 points on 5-for-7 shooting to lead the comeback win. Ben Gordon scored 27 points on 7-for-17 shooting after collecting 24 on 7-for-18 shooting against Golden State.

There was the uncertainty over P.J. Brown's stiff back, which kept him out Sunday, and the degree of Tyrus Thomas' enthusiasm.

But mostly they were talking about Luol Deng, who was superb yet again.

"That was one of his better all-around games," Bulls coach Scott Skiles said. "I thought he was great. He had no turnovers, he blocked shots, he rebounded. It was one of his best games as a pro."

Skiles stopped short of calling it a breakout game, because he had seen that level of play from Deng before.

"Really," he said, "the whole year."

The case can be made, and without much hyperbole, that Deng has been the best player on the Bulls this season. He is making a strong case to be a future All-Star. And if the Bulls do make a trade before the Feb. 22 deadline, it will be hard to include him.

"I felt good," Deng said after collecting 29 points and 12 rebounds against the Suns for a team-best 11th double-double. "My confidence is high. I'm trying to keep being aggressive and learn from every game, what I've done wrong, what I've done right and keep trying to get better."

That's a scary thought given the 6-foot-9-inch forward turns 22 in April. He's making quite a case for being an All-Star now.

Since the All-Star reserves were announced Jan. 31, which coincided with the start of the Bulls' trip, Deng has been the team's best and most consistent player, with Hinrich not far behind.

Gordon has been slumping, shooting 50 percent in just one of the last seven games and under 40 percent on the trip. Skiles wondered whether Gordon had been affected by the All-Star snub. He's the Bulls' leading scorer at 21.2 points per game, and many expected him to make the team.

Deng is averaging 18.4, but he bettered that on this trip while playing consistently good defense.

"I've tried to focus on my defense," Deng said. "I didn't want to be ball watching."

If you're a Bulls fan, you've had a ball watching Deng lately.

He scored at least 20 points in five of the last six games on the trip. He had four double-doubles and missed a fifth by one rebound. In the last seven games he is averaging 21.9 points and 9.7 rebounds. He is shooting 50 percent and he has been aggressive, averaging more than seven free throws per game. He shot 15 against Utah and 13 against Seattle. He had three steals in the Utah and Sacramento games.

He did not attempt a three-pointer on the trip and has shot just three all season.

That represents one of the big changes in Deng's game. He hasn't been a good three-point shooter, so he has worked more on an effective short jumper. Scouts around the league say he might be the best interior cutter in the game, so effective that it tests the Bulls' guards to find him more.

In addition to his improved scoring, Deng is averaging 7.2 rebounds per game and shooting 52.2 percent. He's second on the Bulls in scoring, second in rebounding, third in steals, fourth in assists, fourth in blocks and first in minutes played.

Deng is turning into a real success story. He was taken with the No. 7 pick the Bulls acquired from the Suns in the 2004 draft with the idea of using it to acquire Al Harrington, but that deal fell through.

Deng was bothered by a wrist injury at the end of his rookie season, which limited his workouts. He was not regarded as a great athlete, but he's an extremely hard worker.

Flexibility is an issue for him, but he's always working on it before games and has proved to be one of the more active players in the league. It's hard not to see him as an All-Star, considering a player like Caron Butler of Washington made it this season.

His future will be an issue. The trading deadline is in nine days, and the Bulls are considering whether to trade for Pau Gasol or make another major deal. Deng isn't considered a post-up player but has shown some post moves lately. He says he's working that into his game.

Could the Bulls afford to give him up in a trade? Would they? It's a difficult decision. Is he good enough for the Bulls to stand pat with the group they have?

Sunday "was a big win for us," Deng said, and he certainly helped with seven points, four rebounds and two blocks in the fourth quarter.

"We've lost a lot of close games. This time we made big plays. The trip did not come out like we wanted, but now we go home and focus and try to get on a run."


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

I just read this too. It's a nice fluff piece, and touches on some of the reasons that we are so divided about trading the guy. He's just really good, and he'd fit great next to Pau if we don't include him. In fact, I think Deng's the kind of player who can fit in with almost any team.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Deng = Poor man's Grant Hill


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

deng's offense is a huge improvement over last year. much more efficent i think. but his focus on defense and rebounding is essential (actually deng and noc's) for team success. 

this is why i hesitate to lose both deng and tyrus. we have two forwards here that i can see dominating the defensive end of the court from the paint to the free throw line.


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## dogra (Nov 12, 2003)

Deng is one hell of a young player, that much we know.

Trading him would certainly not be easy.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

I say this often but very young players who merit serious All-Star consideration just aren't traded. Moving a player like Deng (or Gordon) is breaking a cardinal rule in some ways so it would be easy to second guess Pax in a couple years if he trades Lu and he ends up becoming a superstar. At the same time, it's not hard to justify doing what it takes to acquire a player as good as Gasol who fits a major need. I don't particularly envy the situation that Pax is in.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I don't particularly envy the situation that Pax is in.


Yeah, I'd pretty much hate to be him right now.

If he doesn't get Gasol, he'll be STONED by the fans for years to come.

If he DOES get Gasol, but trades Deng, and he becomes what we THINK, he'll be STONED by the fans for years to come.

He really can't win no matter how you look at it


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

JeremyB0001 said:


> it would be easy to second guess Pax in a couple years if he trades Lu and he ends up becoming a superstar.


Even some of Pax's best moves (IMO) are still being second-guessed to this day. A Gasol deal will be no different, and if Gordon or Deng is included, probably the most controversial topic yet. 

What will be interesting is that the huge Deng fans in particular (like me) tend to also be fairly supportive of Paxson. The biggest Gordon fans, not as much, but neither player is anywhere near as divisive as the young guys we've traded away in the past. We all generally agree that they're really good young players and a pleasure to cheer for - just to varying degrees.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Yeah, I'd pretty much hate to be him right now.
> 
> If he doesn't get Gasol, he'll be STONED by the fans for years to come.
> 
> ...


Does not matter. Deng is never going to be a 7 foot post player. Everyone knows he is good. He was #2 behind LeBron. A lottery pick. However, you are not getting a Gasol with a Nocioni as the primary trade asset.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

MemphisX said:


> Does not matter. Deng is never going to be a 7 foot post player. Everyone knows he is good. He was #2 behind LeBron. A lottery pick. However, you are not getting a Gasol with a Nocioni as the primary trade asset.


Yes, we know Noc isn't gonna make the trade.....

We also know Gasol's game brings another dimension to the team..

We also know Luol's put up a double double in 4 of his last 5 games and is averaging 21 ppg & 9 rpg over that span.

Excuse us if it's a tad bit hard to part with such a good young player.



Regardless of all these things, I still believe TT's TRUE position is SF and it was INEVITABLE that he was going to become just that in Chicago.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

The ROY said:


> Excuse us if it's a tad bit hard to part with such a good young player.


I think they know how it feels...


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

ViciousFlogging said:


> I think they know how it feels...


I'm sure they do, but the difference is, Luol hasn't demanded a trade on us.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

good point.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

The ROY said:


> Yeah, I'd pretty much hate to be him right now.
> 
> If he doesn't get Gasol, he'll be STONED by the fans for years to come.
> 
> ...


That's why its better to be safe instead of taking Gasol's big fat contract.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

I don't like the idea of trading Deng at all.

But what I really don't understand is why people seem to think that other assets have to be added with Deng in order to make the trade. After all we are trading a much younger, much cheaper player who in all likelihood will be a better than Gasol in a few years.

So, amazingly people still want to add Sefolosha or Thomas or a lottery pick to make the trade appetizing to West. Incomprehensible in light of the fact that we are already adding PJ Brown.

Deng + Brown is more than plenty for Gasol. Take it or leave it West -- and I hope you leave it.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

McBulls said:


> I don't like the idea of trading Deng at all.
> 
> But what I really don't understand is why people seem to think that other assets have to be added with Deng in order to make the trade. After all we are trading a much younger, much cheaper player who in all likelihood will be a better than Gasol in a few years.
> 
> ...


That was my argument all along, that we were giving up far too many valuable components. A young player nearly as good as Gasol now, a big expiring contract, a lottery pick, and possibly TT and/or Thabo.

Just way too much.


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## Scipio (Feb 18, 2004)

bullybullz said:


> That's why its better to be safe instead of taking Gasol's big fat contract.


Be safe and never reach the finals. It's not even that much of a risk to trade a good young player to a 7 foot Allstar PF.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

Scipio said:


> Be safe and never reach the finals. It's not even that much of a risk to trade a good young player to a 7 foot Allstar PF.


Keep trading and the other teams always seems to be the better beneficiary than the Bulls. Just ask Tyson Chandler, Eddy Curry, J.R. Smith, Tim Thomas, Jannero Pargo.

The more you keep trading players, the harder it is for the team to develop any kind of team chemistry on the basketball court. Having patience and time with players is important because it allows each player to have a better understanding of his weaknesses/ strengths.

All the Dynasty teams (Bulls, Pistons, Lakers, Celtics, etc.) kept the core together and giving the team some time and patience was one of the main reasons behind it.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> Even some of Pax's best moves (IMO) are still being second-guessed to this day. A Gasol deal will be no different, and if Gordon or Deng is included, probably the most controversial topic yet.


 You gots to be kidding. What do you think Pax's top 3 moves are? Hell, top 5. I don't see a lot of second-guessing over drafting Hinrich, Gordon, Duhon or signing Noc (or resigning Chris). Those are probably his top 5 moves without a doubt. I mean, we could still question whether he could have gotten Wade, or whether in the long run Iggy might be a better choice than Gordon or Deng, but I don't think there's big debate that those guys were pretty good moves. Lots of other stuff seems fairly questionable to me, but to say his best moves are being much second-guessed makes me think you think his handling of the Curry DNA fiasco or trading Chandler or something was a highlight of his tenure. I think even Pax's biggest fans would have a hard time swallowing that. 
<P>
Anyway, I'm reconsidering more on Deng vs. Gordon. Not because Ben is in a slump, but because Deng consistently rates out better in my rating system. I'm a stats guy, and I also like teams with all-around players at as many positions as possible. And on the whole, Gordon rates out worse than Deng and always has. So I guess if I'm going to be true to my stats and my generally preferred method of play, I might ought to prefer trading Gordon. But then again, you need to put the stats in context, and every good team needs an overpowering scorer in the backcourt. And I appreciate the fact that Gordon is a huge scoring threat when he's on. In fact, that does show up in my ratings too. So in the end, I guess that's really no help. Do you want the all-around guy or the specialist who does one thing really well?


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

MikeDC said:


> You gots to be kidding. What do you think Pax's top 3 moves are? Hell, top 5. I don't see a lot of second-guessing over drafting Hinrich, Gordon, Duhon or signing Noc (or resigning Chris). Those are probably his top 5 moves without a doubt. I mean, we could still question whether he could have gotten Wade, or whether in the long run Iggy might be a better choice than Gordon or Deng, but I don't think there's big debate that those guys were pretty good moves. Lots of other stuff seems fairly questionable to me, but to say his best moves are being much second-guessed makes me think you think his handling of the Curry DNA fiasco or trading Chandler or something was a highlight of his tenure. I think even Pax's biggest fans would have a hard time swallowing that. ---------------------------------- Anyway, I'm reconsidering more on Deng vs. Gordon. Not because Ben is in a slump, but because Deng consistently rates out better in my rating system. I'm a stats guy, and I also like teams with all-around players at as many positions as possible. And on the whole, Gordon rates out worse than Deng and always has. So I guess if I'm going to be true to my stats and my generally preferred method of play, I might ought to prefer trading Gordon. But then again, you need to put the stats in context, and every good team needs an overpowering scorer in the backcourt. And I appreciate the fact that Gordon is a huge scoring threat when he's on. In fact, that does show up in my ratings too. So in the end, I guess that's really no help. Do you want the all-around guy or the specialist who does one thing really well?


Don't forget Big Ben. Top 1-3 move by Pax in my book.

Regarding Gordon, if we trade him, who is going to get the minutes at guard. Du?? Please, NO. Griffin?? OK. Thabo?? OK but honestly, Gordon has to stay with the Bulls. Also, who is going to hit the 'clutch' shots or the 'big' shots or even the last-second shot in the 4th quarter?? Pau?? Hope not (not that good in the clutch, PROOF-0-12 in playoffs). 

Also, Ben can shoot anywhere on the floor so if the Bulls trade him, who is going to replace this important aspect?? Otherwise, teams would stay down, play zone all day and double team Gasol all the time (since Du, Griff, Thabo not great shooters). I don't think this is what Gasol wants...

This is why in my previous threads I talked about if we get the 'final piece' we may lose 2 or even 3 pieces we already had. That is part of the reason why the Bulls don't need Gasol.

As well as Gordon is still very young and like other people have mentioned, you just don't trade players such as Gordon, for a player who DEMANDED a trade (Gasol). It's just not NBA LOGIC!!!


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

The objective side of me will be glad if Deng is traded as the primary for Gasol instead of Hinrich or Gordon. This is because of Nocioni, Thomas, Thabo, and Viktor. Its a trade that benefits the Bulls and that is all that matters.

The subjective jock-sniffing side of me will throw a pitchfork and torch in the back of my car and make north to Chicago in search of Paxson's house.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

McBulls said:


> So, *amazingly* people still want to add Sefolosha or Thomas or a lottery pick to make the trade appetizing to West. *Incomprehensible* in light of the fact that we are already adding PJ Brown.


What is amazingly incomprehensible is the fan obsession on this board with what is going out as opposed to the end result in Chicago after we incorporate what is coming in.


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## laso (Jul 24, 2002)

I was watching Texas last night and it really made me think we need to keep the Knicks pick. Durant is going to be outstanding. If he can play 4, he would be the perfect complement to big ben. I think Odom has a combination of size and skills that a Garnett or a Rasheed Wallace has. Not a pure banger, but long enough to block shots and rebound, and oh my what offensive skills. There are at least two legit big men stars next year and a chance at complementing our core with one of them is tempting.

I am a fan of Pax but my knock on him is that he has given away assets (as he likes to call them) for not much in return. Obviously, Gasol is a good player, but giving away cap room, a great young player like Deng and a shot (meager as it is) at a stud like Odom or Durant. That's a lot!


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

laso said:


> I was watching Texas last night and it really made me think we need to keep the Knicks pick. Durant is going to be outstanding. If he can play 4, he would be the perfect complement to big ben. I think Odom has a combination of size and skills that a Garnett or a Rasheed Wallace has. Not a pure banger, but long enough to block shots and rebound, and oh my what offensive skills. There are at least two legit big men stars next year and a chance at complementing our core with one of them is tempting.
> 
> I am a fan of Pax but my knock on him is that he has given away assets (as he likes to call them) for not much in return. Obviously, Gasol is a good player, but giving away cap room, a great young player like Deng and a shot (meager as it is) at a stud like Odom or Durant. That's a lot!


DAMN RIGHT.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

laso said:


> Obviously, Gasol is a good player, *but giving away cap room*, a great young player like Deng and a shot (meager as it is) at a stud like Odom or Durant. That's a lot!


We wouldn't be giving away "cap room". We'd be giving away an expiring contract that doesn't put us under the cap if allowed to expire. 

The loss of PJ is the loss of his services for the remainder of the year. Nothing more.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Durant is a 3.....he can get away with that skinny body in college, but not in the pro's...


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## charlietyra (Dec 1, 2002)

Deng is easily the best Bulls player since Elton Brand. And Brand was the best Bulls player since the Jordan/Pippen era. 

IMO Deng has a chance to become a top 15 player in the NBA. To trade him, even for an effective 7 footer, would be another atrocious mistake made by Bulls management. For once I agree with Pax that you "don't mortgage the future." Pax should wait for another GM to get desperate and give away an asset for a pittance. He has experience with that sort of thing.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

Ron Cey said:


> We wouldn't be giving away "cap room". We'd be giving away an expiring contract that doesn't put us under the cap if allowed to expire.
> 
> The loss of PJ is the loss of his services for the remainder of the year. Nothing more.


Then, how about Malik or Sweets??


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

The ROY said:


> If he doesn't get Gasol, he'll be STONED by the fans for years to come.
> 
> If he DOES get Gasol, but trades Deng, and he becomes what we THINK, he'll be STONED by the fans for years to come.
> 
> He really can't win no matter how you look at it


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

So you pass on Gasol for the meager chance you get Durant? Then when you get the actual pick(at best Corey Brewer) and he is not ready to play at championship level, what do you do for a big man? I really do not see how the Bulls expect to even make a play for Garnett without gutting their team. Next year the Lakers have an expiring contract in Kwame. Then KG is going to put the squeeze on the extend his deal. So you are going to be on the hook for about $60 million for KG after his current deal expires. Why do fans want to "rebuild" forever? When do fans tire of potential and prefer production? You can scoff at Gasol's 0-12 playoff record or you look at the rosters for the reason behind the 0-12.

How are you going to get the salries to match KG or JO at $20 million this summer? You need at least $16 millon.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Ron Cey said:


> What is amazingly incomprehensible is the fan obsession on this board with what is going out as opposed to the end result in Chicago after we incorporate what is coming in.


Let's face it Paxson's trade record is pretty bad so far:

Rose + Marshall for JYD & AD :thumbdown: 
Crawford + JYD for garbage +capspace frittered away in Chandler trade :no: 
Curry + AD for Tim Thomas, Sweetney and Tyrus Thomas & pick swap  
Chandler for PJ Brown and 2 2nd rounders :curse: 

With that kind of track record, a Bulls fan has every right to worry about what is going out.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

bullybullz said:


> Then, how about Malik or Sweets??


First, because their contracts aren't as large so as to match. Second, because Memphis will be receiving "cap room" so they are going to want to get as much as possible.

Perhaps you don't understand the distinction I'm drawing. PJ Brown doesn't provide the Bulls with capspace with his contract expires. Hence, the Bulls aren't trading away capspace that they could otherwise use to sign free agents. They are going to be over the cap regardless.

Memphis, on the other hand, with Eddie Jones and Pau's contracts off the books and PJ's contract expiring will get significantly under the cap so as to recruit free agents. 

So, in summary, Memphis will be receiving cap space but we won't be losing any.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

MemphisX said:


> So you pass on Gasol for the meager chance you get Durant? Then when you get the actual pick(at best Corey Brewer) and he is not ready to play at championship level, what do you do for a big man? I really do not see how the Bulls expect to even make a play for Garnett without gutting their team. Next year the Lakers have an expiring contract in Kwame. Then KG is going to put the squeeze on the extend his deal. So you are going to be on the hook for about $60 million for KG after his current deal expires. Why do fans want to "rebuild" forever? When do fans tire of potential and prefer production? You can scoff at Gasol's 0-12 playoff record or you look at the rosters for the reason behind the 0-12.
> 
> How are you going to get the salries to match KG or JO at $20 million this summer? You need at least $16 millon.


Easy, Viktor, Du, Sweets, Malik, Martynas, P.J.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

Ron Cey said:


> First, because their contracts aren't as large so as to match. Second, because Memphis will be receiving "cap room" so they are going to want to get as much as possible.
> 
> Perhaps you don't understand the distinction I'm drawing. PJ Brown doesn't provide the Bulls with capspace with his contract expires. Hence, the Bulls aren't trading away capspace that they could otherwise use to sign free agents. They are going to be over the cap regardless.
> 
> ...


Oh


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> Let's face it Paxson's trade record is pretty bad so far:


I very much disagree with this premise for reasons I've discussed time and time again around here. I don't particularly care to turn this thread into yet another discussion of the merit of these trades. 



> Rose + Marshall for JYD & AD :thumbdown:
> Crawford + JYD for garbage +capspace frittered away in Chandler trade :no:
> Curry + AD for Tim Thomas, Sweetney and Tyrus Thomas & pick swap
> Chandler for PJ Brown and 2 2nd rounders :curse:


I'll just say this, I don't share your opinion on the merits of these trades. As I type this, I support every single one of them with absolutely no reservations whatsoever. I will concede that the Chandler trade, in hindsight, was a mistake *if Brown's contract isn't used to upgrade the team.* 



> With that kind of track record, a Bulls fan has every right to worry about what is going out.


Not to the extent that they weigh it above what is coming in and the end result in Chicago. That is completely irrational and strikes me as a fanboy's way of looking at things. Moreover, this proposed deal involves an immediate return and therefore is very much different than those you've cited. Even the "Fire Pax" crowd would agree with that.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I don't see much separation between what's coming in and what's going out. Two sides of the same coin. When focusing on one, the person is implicitly making a statement about what they think of the other.


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## charlietyra (Dec 1, 2002)

McBulls said:


> Let's face it Paxson's trade record is pretty bad so far:
> 
> Rose + Marshall for JYD & AD :thumbdown:
> Crawford + JYD for garbage +capspace frittered away in Chandler trade :no:
> ...



This hightlights what every Bulls fan should fear, i.e. Paxson in trade mode. You didn't mention some of the other screw-ups either, like letting Mutombo go for essentially nothing, signing Scottie Pippen, etc.

I think that "found money" crack by Pax will historically be the Bulls' equivalent to George W. Bush claiming "mission accomplished" when he landed on the deck of that aircraft carrier.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

MikeDC said:


> You gots to be kidding.


Nope, I'm not kidding. Obviously there are some no-brainer moves that aren't second-guessed. But looking at his entire body of work to this point involves a lot of transactions. Some of which I think were very shrewd, but are still second-guessed. I'm not going to bother getting into a pissing match about it, ranking every move he's made, and then arguing about each one (because that's a big part of what we do around here anyway), but it is how I feel.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

MikeDC said:


> I don't see much separation between what's coming in and what's going out. Two sides of the same coin. When focusing on one, the person is implicitly making a statement about what they think of the other.


Are you replying to what I said or in general terms of this thread??


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

bullybullz said:


> Keep trading and the other teams always seems to be the better beneficiary than the Bulls. Just ask Tyson Chandler, Eddy Curry, J.R. Smith, Tim Thomas, Jannero Pargo.


Tyson and Eddy can both put up nice individual numbers, but have played on exactly one winning team in their entire careers, and neither plays for a team that looks to change that trend this season or next.

Tim Thomas was an effective role player for Denver last year and is dong ok for the Clips, but he has had a career of being a ping pong ball among teams. Philly to Milwaukee back to and forth between Philly and New York a couple of times, to Chicago to Denver to LA. He is a talented scorer, but it is clear that he comes with some baggage if he has such an unstable work history.

J.R. Smith is putting up some nice scoring numbers in Denver. Good for him. He is on his 3rd team in 3 years, though. See Tim Thomas.

Pargo was a bit player on a couple of good Lakers teams and since then has been a steady, but unspectacular role player on teams that have struggled.

So once again, I think bemoaning our losses to the extent that we do is much ado about nothing...


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

MikeDC said:


> I don't see much separation between what's coming in and what's going out. Two sides of the same coin. When focusing on one, the person is implicitly making a statement about what they think of the other.


I've read many times from different fans who admit that they are more concerned with an "overpayment" than they are with whether or not a Gasol trade improves the Bulls. 

That is what I'm referring to.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

Tim Thomas played for Phoenix last year. I'm not saying it made the Bulls worse because of the trades. All I'm saying is their numbers all have gone up since being traded by the Bulls.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

bullybullz said:


> Tim Thomas played for Phoenix last year. I'm not saying it made the Bulls worse because of the trades. All I'm saying is their numbers all have gone up since being traded by the Bulls.




I meant to say Phoenix...I must have been thinking ahead to JR when typing.

He was a decent player for Phoenix. Even so, they had no desire to retain him come season's end.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

bullybullz said:


> Are you replying to what I said or in general terms of this thread??


In general


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> I've read many times from different fans who admit that they are more concerned with an "overpayment" than they are with whether or not a Gasol trade improves the Bulls.
> 
> That is what I'm referring to.


It's tautological unless all you're concerned about is a binary improves/doesn't improve answer.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> Nope, I'm not kidding. Obviously there are some no-brainer moves that aren't second-guessed. But looking at his entire body of work to this point involves a lot of transactions. Some of which I think were very shrewd, but are still second-guessed. I'm not going to bother getting into a pissing match about it, ranking every move he's made, and then arguing about each one (because that's a big part of what we do around here anyway), but it is how I feel.


You know, you could have just said you were wrong. :yay:


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## charlietyra (Dec 1, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> I've read many times from different fans who admit that they are more concerned with an "overpayment" than they are with whether or not a Gasol trade improves the Bulls.
> 
> That is what I'm referring to.



I don't see why you have a problem with that position. Who wouldn't like Gasol? But he needs someone to play with. You could have put Wilt with the Kornel David era Bulls and they still would have been dreck. When you are desperate enough to give the other team the moon for a guy who you think will be "the final piece" more often than not you will be very sorry for it later.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

charlietyra said:


> I don't see why you have a problem with that position. Who wouldn't like Gasol? But he needs someone to play with. You could have put Wilt with the Kornel David era Bulls and they still would have been dreck. When you are desperate enough to give the other team the moon for a guy who you think will be "the final piece" more often than not you will be very sorry for it later.


Is it because Gasol is overrated as the final piece, or because the Bulls aren't good enough to make use of him?


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

I'm starting to believe Pax won't pull the Trigger with Luol......


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

MikeDC said:


> You know, you could have just said you were wrong. :yay:


If I thought I was, I'd have no problem saying it. :clap2:


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

bullybullz said:


> Easy, Viktor, Du, Sweets, Malik, Martynas, P.J.


Viktor...$1.9 million
Duhon....$3.2 million
Sweets...$3.7 million (if he and Chicago agree to the 5th year and then you need his permission to trade him)

Malik, Martynas, and PJ will be off the books. So you are about $8 million short.

Deng could be $3.3 million, 2007 draft pick will be about $2.5 million. So I guess you can throw in Adrian Griffin right?

Viktor, Duhon, Sweets, Deng, Draft pick, and Griffin for KG. So now you have given up Deng, Duhon, Viktor and your pick for KG (would Minny even do this deal?) for what could be a one year rental of KG. I guess it could be a plan.

PG Hinrich
SG Gordon, Thabo
SF Nocioni, Tyrus
PF KG
C Ben Wallace

Then you have the MLE and minimum contracts to fill out the roster.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

charlietyra said:


> I don't see why you have a problem with that position. Who wouldn't like Gasol? But he needs someone to play with. You could have put Wilt with the Kornel David era Bulls and they still would have been dreck. When you are desperate enough to give the other team the moon for a guy who you think will be "the final piece" more often than not you will be very sorry for it later.


You don't understand why I have a problem with an analysis that openly discounts whether or not a trade improves the Bulls? Then I dare say it will be difficult for me to explain it to you if it isn't obvious on its face.

Agreed Pau does need someone to play with. And none of the recently reported trades leave him with "the Kornel David era Bulls". He'd likely be surrounded by the entirety of the core save one. And people still don't want to do it. 

Its absolutely mind boggling. Especially given the rarity of this opportunity when coupled with the Bulls' gaping hole in the interior.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

The ROY said:


> I'm starting to believe Pax won't pull the Trigger with Luol......


All this short term/long term stuff by Pax...PAU IS A 26 YEAR OLD BIG MAN WITH YEARS LEFT ON HIS DEAL!!!

OK, I'm done. For now.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

I've posted this before but I think it's worth repeating. If Deng goes, the Bulls will create a new hole needing to be filled. Who will get easy transition baskets? The Bulls have no other athletic and long wing players (who are good). We'll just all change the tune of our clamouring to that if Deng is traded.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

TripleDouble said:


> I've posted this before but I think it's worth repeating. If Deng goes, the Bulls will create a new hole needing to be filled. Who will get easy transition baskets? The Bulls have no other athletic and long wing players (who are good). We'll just all change the tune of our clamouring to that if Deng is traded.


I'm sorry, but that just doesn't hold water. Deng is the ONLY guy we can trade that has an almost-as-good reserve waiting in the wings to fill his spot. The sole reason that Deng is the preferred primary is the fact that he's the most competently replaced in the context of the current roster.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> I've posted this before but I think it's worth repeating. If Deng goes, the Bulls will create a new hole needing to be filled. Who will get easy transition baskets? The Bulls have no other athletic and long wing players (who are good). We'll just all change the tune of our clamouring to that if Deng is traded.


True about the clamoring, for sure. True that the loss of Deng will weaken our position at 3. The loss of Ben G would weaken our position at 2. chances are, though, it would take one of those 2 to complete a deal to strengthen our position at 4/5 in terms of adding a scorer. I agree that we do have more depth at 3 than we do in the backcourt.

Few teams are completely bulletproof at every position. The trick is coming up with a combination of strengths (and minimizing weaknesses as much as possible) to come up a winner. I think Pau's addition would truly make the Bulls stronger in either scenario, as much as it would hurt to see either Ben or Luol go.

As I say, very few teams are perfect. Even the Dynasty Bulls had weaknesses -- we never had a truly outstanding point guard and never had a very good scoring center (especially in the 2nd Dynasty).

But the holes weren't GLARING and having MJ, Pip, Rodman, Grant...those guys added up to a combination/team that couldn't be beat. Um, especially Jordan and Pippen. :biggrin:

Point is, the Dynasty teams weren't stacked with allstars 1-5. They had outstanding 2,3 and 4's and servicable 1 and 5's.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> I'm sorry, but that just doesn't hold water. Deng is the ONLY guy we can trade that has an almost-as-good reserve waiting in the wings to fill his spot. The sole reason that Deng is the preferred primary is the fact that he's the most competently replaced in the context of the current roster.


Deng and Nocioni are not the same player at all. Deng is faster, longer and a better finisher. 

If the Bulls trade Deng they won't have a player who can consistantly get them easy baskets in transition.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Tyson and Eddy can both put up nice individual numbers, but have played on exactly one winning team in their entire careers, and neither plays for a team that looks to change that trend this season or next.


Chandler was on a winning team last year as well, no. Looks like Chandler's great work this year may get NOK into the playoffs this year. He played well when Paul, Peja and West were all out and now all but Peja is back. And Chandler is playing even better. There are something like 8-2 in the last 10 and only 2 games out of the 8th seed. IN THE WEST.

Would we make the playoffs this year if Hinrich, Deng and Gordon had missed as much time as the NOK guys? If we were in the West?


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

johnston797 said:


> Chandler was on a winning team last year as well, no.


to channel k4e, the Bulls were not a winning team last year.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> Chandler was on a winning team last year as well, no. Looks like Chandler's great work this year may get NOK into the playoffs this year. He played well when Paul, Peja and West were all out and now all but Peja is back. And Chandler is playing even better. There are something like 8-2 in the last 10 and only 2 games out of the 8th seed. IN THE WEST.
> 
> Would we make the playoffs this year if Hinrich, Deng and Gordon had missed as much time as the NOK guys? If we were in the West?


Now I'm not just ripping our ex-players apart, I'm just keeping perspective. Yeah, Tyson is playing well this year. Most of his career was spent on struggling Bulls teams that were among the worst ever. He played well in our one good year with him. as I recall, the general consensus was that his subpar play was one of the significant factors that kept an otherwise fairly nice Bulls roster from getting beyond the 41-41 result of last season.

and Tyson seems to be in the best stiuation of the guys we talk about. As you say, the team is only 3 games under .500 and with some luck could nab the 8th seed -- but I think it will be tough for them to keep pace with the Clips.

And of the other ex-Bulls who are truly significant (I don't count Tim Thomas, JR Smith and Pargo in that catagory) most of the ex-Bulls we pine away under are on the Knicks -- Eddy, Jamal and Jalen. Eddy and Jamal are playing very well, but the big news for their team is they aren't making as giant a sucking sound as they did last year and may end up late lottery instead of top of the draft.

The point being that the suggestion that all the Bulls we let go go on to bigger and better things is just not true. I see improvement in Jamal's game. Tyson is having a nice year, but I wait and see with him, since he seems to be a bit of a roller coaster. Eddy is scoring like a fiend, and it is fun to watch, but he also remains just as frustrating as always in other parts of his game. And his team -- as well as Jalen and Jamal's team -- still stinks.

As Ron states - no need to turn this into yet another trade rehash. We've all said what we say before.

I'm happy to see the ex-Bulls play well. Sometimes I briefly wish one or more was still around. But mostly I don't think that its a huge seal they are gone and the continued lack of success of the teams they went to seems to reflect that.

/rehash


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> And his team -- as well as Jalen and Jamal's team -- still stinks.


Jalen is on the Suns now. But I don't think even his most devoted fans would suggest that his DNP-CDs and spot minutes are much of a factor in their excellent season.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Ron Cey said:


> I've read many times from different fans who admit that they are more concerned with an "overpayment" than they are with whether or not a Gasol trade improves the Bulls.
> 
> That is what I'm referring to.


The thing is that the Bulls have put together a winning backcourt and wing combination. Hinrich, Gordon and Deng match up well with any backcourt in the league. They and their backups, Nocioni, Duhon, and Griffin have been playing together for three years and have devloped some nice chemistry. One of the backups and one or both of the rookies could be dealt without sabotaging what has been built, but trading one of the three starters at this stage of development is a serious loss that may not be repairable for many years.

Who is going to guard Lebron James, Paul Pierce, Richard Hamilton, Marion, Nowitski and friends when Deng is gone? Nocioni can and will try, but lets get real, he not quick or long enough. Sefolosha? Show me; I haven't seen it yet. Gasol?:lol: The league is crawling with small forwards who would eat the Bulls alive if they lose Deng. 

Offensively, Deng and Gasol are a wash IMO. The criticism that Deng is not the focus of the Bulls offense is specious. He's progressing right before our eyes this season. When was the last time the guy had a bad game? How many 19 year olds have walked into a starting position in the NBA from day one, stayed there for three years and NOT turned out to be stars? 
With the right supporting cast around him Deng will be compared to Bird and Pippen in the future. He's already a deadly shooter who has good inside moves and a great outside shot. By next year he'll have added the 3 point shot back to his repetoir.

Add to the fact that Gasol's salary reduces salary flexibility, it's a little hard to see the motivation for giving up a rookie lottery pick and/or a lottery draft pick as well as Deng in trade. You're only solving one problem and making another. In most trade scenarios I've seen, after you get Gasol, you won't have Deng, a lottery pick or any likelihood of getting Cheapskate Jerry to agree to add an MLE free agent.

It's pretty rare when deliberately losing a trade benefits the team on the short side. I don't think this trade will be the exception. 

There will be many opportunities in the future to get a big man via draft, trade or free agency. He might not be as good as Gasol, but then he wouldn't have to be. 

Sometimes the best trade is the trade you don't make. West is in a bad bargaining position, but he's doing a good job of acting like he's not. The Bulls can do this trade without giving up the family jewels, and that's what they should do.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> Jalen is on the Suns now. But I don't think even his most devoted fans would suggest that his DNP-CDs and spot minutes are much of a factor in their excellent season.


I do. If Jalen were playing more, their record would be worse. :biggrin:


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Rhyder said:


> I do. If Jalen were playing more, their record would be worse. :biggrin:


Nice. :lol:


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

> The thing is that the Bulls have put together a winning backcourt and wing combination. Hinrich, Gordon and Deng match up well with any backcourt in the league. They and their backups, Nocioni, Duhon, and Griffin have been playing together for three years and have devloped some nice chemistry. One of the backups and one or both of the rookies could be dealt without sabotaging what has been built, but *trading one of the three starters at this stage of development is a serious loss that may not be repairable for many years*.


How so? We would still have 2 of the 3. All 3 players are good, but I don't recognize a synergy or special connection among the 3. 



> Who is going to guard Lebron James, Paul Pierce, Richard Hamilton, Marion, Nowitski and friends when Deng is gone? Nocioni can and will try, but lets get real, he not quick or long enough. Sefolosha? Show me; I haven't seen it yet. Gasol? The league is crawling with small forwards who would eat the Bulls alive if they lose Deng.


Khryapa. The lottery pick in the 2007 draft. A free agent pickup like James Posey. Deng's not *that* great a defender. The league is crawling with small forwards who can play good defense and hit open jump shots, too. 



> Offensively, Deng and Gasol are a wash IMO. The criticism that Deng is not the focus of the Bulls offense is specious. He's progressing right before our eyes this season. When was the last time the guy had a bad game? How many 19 year olds have walked into a starting position in the NBA from day one, stayed there for three years and NOT turned out to be stars?


Gasol is putting up more points on a better percentage as the first option on his team. Numerous posters have talked about Deng "disappearing" in the 4th. Or they've noted that Deng is Curry-like in that he scores a lot of his points in the first and second quarters. Those statements are made because Deng can not create his own shot. Gasol can. Gasol also has a post game that Deng currently does not have. He scores his points in a different manner that makes his teammates better. 

This year, we've seen Hinrich and subsequently Gordon struggle at times when they are targeted by opposing defenses this year. Gasol puts up with double and triple-teams on a nightly basis and still scores effectively. 



> With the right supporting cast around him Deng will be compared to Bird and Pippen in the future. He's already a deadly shooter who has good inside moves and a great outside shot. By next year he'll have added the 3 point shot back to his repetoir.


Pippen was one of the best pure athletes in the league. He had ball-handling ability and finishing ability that Deng will never have. Bird? I don't think Deng has Bird's rebounding or passing skills. 



> There will be many opportunities in the future to get a big man via draft, trade or free agency. He might not be as good as Gasol, but then he wouldn't have to be.


Like who? I don't think Melvin Ely or Chris Wilcox or whoever are long-term answers. Even guys like Spencer Hawes are 2 or 3 years away. Noah is ready, but it wouldn't be smart to depend on getting a top 5 pick when the Knicks are currently at 8-10. 

There will be even more opportunities to get a small forward via draft, trade, or free agency. He might not be as good as Deng, but then he wouldn't have to be.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

McBulls said:


> The Bulls can do this trade without giving up the family jewels, and that's what they should do.












If he CAN keep 'em, I'm all for it. Hope he gets it done.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

rwj333 said:


> How so? We would still have 2 of the 3. All 3 players are good, but I don't recognize a synergy or special connection among the 3.


Synergy takes years to develop. I think we're beginning to see it now.



> Khryapa. The lottery pick in the 2007 draft. The league is crawling with small forwards who can play good defense and hit open jump shots, too.


Not exactly crawling. But if Khryapa is so good, maybe we should include him in the trade. A guy like Jerry West will recognize his worth, even if he's been on reserve half the season.



> Numerous posters have talked about Deng "disappearing" in the 4th. Or they've noted that Deng is Curry-like in that he scores a lot of his points in the first and second quarters. Those statements are made because Deng can not create his own shot.


I don't think it's so much that Deng can't create his own shot as it is that Gordon and Hinrich tend to be ball hogs in the fourth quarter. Gordon in particular. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe not. I think it's something the team needs to work on.



> Pippen was one of the best pure athletes in the league. He had ball-handling ability and finishing ability that Deng will never have. Bird? I don't think Deng has Bird's rebounding or passing skills.


I was comparing the offensive games of these players. Deng has comparable skills offensively to Pippen, although he's not as quick defensively. Pippen played point-forward, which offered more passing opportunities. However it is easy to forget how slow his development was. Statistically, Deng is ahead of him at this point in his career. I doubt that he will ever compare to Pippen defensively, but then very few players can.

Obviously it's unlikely that Deng will ever be as good as Bird, but it's worth noting that when Bird entered the league he was a few years older than Deng is now. The thing is that Deng has a similar game. He'll be a very good rebounder in his prime, averaging a double double as he gains bulk. He also has great court sense; and if given the opportunity he'll make his share of assists. It's unlikely that he'll be as good a scorer or leader as Bird was, but in every other respect he could be comparable.



> Like who? I don't think Melvin Ely or Chris Wilcox or whoever are long-term answers. Even guys like Spencer Hawes are 2 or 3 years away. Noah is ready, but it wouldn't be smart to depend on getting a top 5 pick when the Knicks are currently at 8-10.


Just looking at the 2007 draft, Splitter, Horford, Hawes, Jianlian, and Gray can't be dismissed as useless out of hand. One of them will be available. 

The point is that the Bulls would have kept an outstanding young SF, so the need for an outstanding big man would not be as acute. Oh, and they will have kept TT as well.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

McBulls said:


> Just looking at the 2007 draft, Splitter, Horford, Hawes, Jianlian, and Gray can't be dismissed as useless out of hand. One of them will be available.


As I pointed out in another thread, there are some interesting prospects even after the Durant/Oden dropoff. If the draft were held today, the Knicks pick would likely fall mid-lottery.

Here are the projected top fifteen prospects from nbadraft.net:

1. Greg Oden 7-0 250 C Ohio St. Fr. .
2. Kevin Durant 6-10 220 SF Texas Fr. 
3. Brandan Wright 6-10 210 PF UNC Fr. 
4. Joakim Noah 6-11 230 PF Florida Jr. 
5. Al Horford 6-9 245 PF Florida Jr. 
6. Julian Wright 6-8 225 SF Kansas So. 
7. Yi Jianlian 7-0 230 PF China 1987 
8. Thaddeus Young 6-8 217 SF GT Fr. 
9. Chase Budinger 6-7 190 SG Arizona Fr. 
10. Jeff Green 6-8 235 SF Georgetown Jr. 
11. Al Thornton 6-8 220 SF/PF Florida St. Sr. 
12. Hasheem Thabeet 7-3 265 C UConn Fr. 
13. Corey Brewer 6-8 185 SF Florida Jr. 
14. Aaron Gray 7-1 280 C Pittsburgh Sr. 
15. Arron Afflalo 6-5 215 SG UCLA Jr.


and Draft Express has:

1. Kevin Durant 6-10 220 SF Texas Fr. 
2. Greg Oden 7-0 250 C Ohio St. Fr.
3. Joakim Noah 6-11 230 PF Florida Jr. 
4. Brandan Wright 6-10 210 PF UNC Fr. 
5. Julian Wright 6-8 225 SF Kansas So. 
6. Josh McRoberts, 6-10 240 PF Duke So.
7. Al Horford 6-9 245 PF Florida Jr. 
8. Tiago Splitter, 6-11 240 PF TAU
9. Corey Brewer 6-8 185 SF Florida Jr. 
10. Dominick James, 5-11 180 PG Marquette So.
11. Yi Jianlian 7-0 230 PF China 1987 
12. Marcus Williams, 6-7 207 SG Arizona So
13. Jason Smith, 7-0 240 PF Colorado State Jr.
14. Aaron Gray 7-1 280 C Pittsburgh Sr.
15. Tyler Hansborough, 6-8 245 PF North Carolina So.


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## charlietyra (Dec 1, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Is it because Gasol is overrated as the final piece, or because the Bulls aren't good enough to make use of him?


Because you don't want to rob Peter to pay Pau.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> Does not matter. Deng is never going to be a 7 foot post player. Everyone knows he is good. He was #2 behind LeBron. A lottery pick. However, you are not getting a Gasol with a Nocioni as the primary trade asset.


I'm tired of this notion that position trumps production. Gasol is an incredible player but if Deng were to average 26 and 8, Pax won't get a free pass for trading him because he's not a post player.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> So you pass on Gasol for the meager chance you get Durant? Then when you get the actual pick(at best Corey Brewer) and he is not ready to play at championship level, what do you do for a big man? I really do not see how the Bulls expect to even make a play for Garnett without gutting their team. Next year the Lakers have an expiring contract in Kwame. Then KG is going to put the squeeze on the extend his deal. So you are going to be on the hook for about $60 million for KG after his current deal expires. Why do fans want to "rebuild" forever? When do fans tire of potential and prefer production? You can scoff at Gasol's 0-12 playoff record or you look at the rosters for the reason behind the 0-12.
> 
> How are you going to get the salries to match KG or JO at $20 million this summer? You need at least $16 millon.


If you're expecting Paxson to do something no other GM in the league is willing to do - trade an unprotected lottery pick in this draft - then that's a good sign you're being unreasonable. You don't roll the dice on passing up a player who completely alters the future of your franchise for the better, even if the odds of landing him are not high.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> You don't understand why I have a problem with an analysis that openly discounts whether or not a trade improves the Bulls? Then I dare say it will be difficult for me to explain it to you if it isn't obvious on its face.
> 
> Agreed Pau does need someone to play with. And none of the recently reported trades leave him with "the Kornel David era Bulls". He'd likely be surrounded by the entirety of the core save one. And people still don't want to do it.
> 
> Its absolutely mind boggling. Especially given the rarity of this opportunity when coupled with the Bulls' gaping hole in the interior.


I see it as two different and seperate issues. One is whether or not you negotiate shrewdly enough to give up the low end of what the other GM will accept in a deal. Then after you get those pieces in place you ask yourself the question of whether the team is better or not if you pull the trigger. I think you can do a great deal of negotiating and lower the oppositions asking price but still find yourself looking at a deal where you're giving up more than you're receiving. You can also work out a deal where you vastly improved your team yet at the same time a better GM would be putting a better team on the floor because the other GM could've been talked down further from their asking price.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

TripleDouble said:


> I've posted this before but I think it's worth repeating. If Deng goes, the Bulls will create a new hole needing to be filled. Who will get easy transition baskets? The Bulls have no other athletic and long wing players (who are good). We'll just all change the tune of our clamouring to that if Deng is traded.


So..

You're saying Tyrus, Viktor & Andres can't hold down the SF spot in Deng's absence?

And we don't have any atheletic, long wings? I guess Tyrus must of shrunk in the last couple of days then


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

The ROY said:


> So..
> 
> You're saying Tyrus, Viktor & Andres can't hold down the SF spot in Deng's absence?
> 
> And we don't have any atheletic, long wings? I guess Tyrus must of shrunk in the last couple of days then


I'm not claiming the Bulls don't have depth at SF -- I am claiming that they don't have any other players who can get out in transition and finish at the basket like Deng. 

And I know you are high on Tyrus as a three -- I'm not. I think he's much better off as a 4 because his parimeter skills there are above average but at the three they are below average.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

rwj333 said:


> Gasol is putting up more points on a better percentage as the first option on his team. Numerous posters have talked about Deng "disappearing" in the 4th. Or they've noted that Deng is Curry-like in that he scores a lot of his points in the first and second quarters. Those statements are made because Deng can not create his own shot. Gasol can.


I don't understand why it would be easy to score in bunches without create your own shot in the first three quarters and then difficult or even impossible to do so in the fourth quarter.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Some interesting questions from radio - land.

Do opposing coaches game plan around Luol Deng? Is Toronto tonight saying "that's the guy we have to stop?" If no, when will he, if ever, become that player?

How often, if ever, have you seen Deng get double teamed? Do you ever envision him becoming that kind of player? If so, when? 

True NBA Stars are game planned around and usually draw double teams on the offensive end.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> As I pointed out in another thread, there are some interesting prospects even after the Durant/Oden dropoff. If the draft were held today, the Knicks pick would likely fall mid-lottery.


I meant to ask in the other thread, where's Hawes? He's number 6 on Chad Ford's top 100.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

It's much harder to find a player like Gasol than to replace Deng.

Gasol is not KG. But you don't win with an SF either, unless that SF is Lebron, Carmelo, Paul Pierce, or the up and coming Kevin Durant. It's just easier to build a good team around Gasol than try to do it with our current team. If we lose Deng for Gasol, I don't think we will have any problem replacing Deng. We have Nocioni and Thabo to cover the hole while we're looking for the right SF either through draft or free agency. Of course it will be hard to find one who put Deng-like numbers. But, that's the way it works, to get something we have to give something.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

I don't see why we'd look to replace Deng with a SF in the draft when we have Tyrus.

Is he polished enough to play SF full-time now? Probably not, but Pax invested in him and why draft a #2 pick to come off the bench for the next 4 years? Only to start when Ben's deal is up? I'd have TT's arse in the Berto Center EVERYDAY this offseason training his game and honing his '3' skills. Bring Pippen in to mentor him and that other guy that trained TT during draft workouts.

He does some things well when he does play SF, he aggresively charges the basket and draws fouls. He's a pesky defender on the perimeter, usually getting steals in the passing lanes with his Pippen-like reach or forcing the ball-handler to make bad decisions. He's a great weakside defender and I'm sure he'd rack up a ton of blocks with defenders trying to post Wallace & Gasol all day.

He mainly needs to work on his ball-handling, free-throw shooting and mid-range jumper. All those things can be fixed.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

The ROY said:


> He mainly needs to work on his ball-handling, free-throw shooting and mid-range jumper. All those things can be fixed.


I think someone else on this board used this quote: "Other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?" 

From what I've seen, his jump-shot, physique, understanding of the offense, and ball-handling are a long way off. Could he eventually play SF? Sure, but he's at least another year or 18 months off. 

It will take substantial improvement for Tyrus to become a SF offensively. It will take significantly less improvement (a slightly better jumpshot and a better physique) for Tyrus to play PF effectively. I think he's slightly more valuable to the Bulls as a PF who can block shots and defend the paint, anyway.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

MemphisX said:


> Viktor...$1.9 million
> Duhon....$3.2 million
> Sweets...$3.7 million (if he and Chicago agree to the 5th year and then you need his permission to trade him)
> 
> ...


No, you're wrong, it works on ESPN Trade Machine.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

rwj333 said:


> It will take substantial improvement for Tyrus to become a SF offensively. It will take significantly less improvement (a slightly better jumpshot and a better physique) for Tyrus to play PF effectively. I think he's slightly more valuable to the Bulls as a PF who can block shots and defend the paint, anyway.


But why wouldn't he be valuable defending the James's, Marion's & um, DENG's of the league on the wing while still blocking shots?

Yeah, he's valuable as as PF, but if Gasol is here, benching Tyrus is pretty silly with his level of talent.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

rwj333 said:


> Khryapa. The lottery pick in the 2007 draft. A free agent pickup like James Posey. Deng's not *that* great a defender. The league is crawling with small forwards who can play good defense and hit open jump shots, too.


There's some interesting all-around discussion in this thread, and I don't want to go off on too much of a tangent, but Khryapa? From what I've seen so far, he's an absolutely dreadful basketball player. He seems so... jittery (for lack of a better term) and always a step slow. Perhaps it's the lack of playing time, but hoping Khryapa can guard opposing SF with any consistency is sort of like playing the lottery. Maybe it can happen, but there's no evidence to suggest it will.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I don't understand why it would be easy to score in bunches without create your own shot in the first three quarters and then difficult or even impossible to do so in the fourth quarter.


Good point.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

charlietyra said:


> Because you don't want to rob Peter to pay Pau.













AAAAAAAaaaaahhhhAaaahhhhhhhh!!!!

A wacka Wacka WACKA!


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

The ROY said:


> But why wouldn't he be valuable defending the James's, Marion's & um, DENG's of the league on the wing while still blocking shots?
> 
> Yeah, he's valuable as as PF, but if Gasol is here, benching Tyrus is pretty silly with his level of talent.


On one hand I can see how it seems like there's little to lose by having Tyrus work on his SF skills. At the same time though, if he spends an entire offseason working on those type of skills and it doesn't take he may be missing out on other activities that are more important to his development. Maybe the skills and physique he needs to develop for the two positions overlap enough that it's not a huge issue.

I don't really see the same problem that you do with finding a role for Tyrus in the front court. If he plays well enough these things have a way of working themselves out and he would have an opportunity to play 25 to 30 MPG behind Big Ben and Gasol. By the time he's in the last year of his rookie deal Ben will be 35 and in the last year of his deal.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I don't really see the same problem that you do with finding a role for Tyrus in the front court. If he plays well enough these things have a way of working themselves out and he would have an opportunity to play 25 to 30 MPG behind Big Ben and Gasol. By the time he's in the last year of his rookie deal Ben will be 35 and in the last year of his deal.


Yeah, but by THEN, will he even want to remain a Bull? No #2 pick wants to come off the bench for 4 years to wait for an opprotunity to start. The smart move, IMO, would be to get him prepared for the role slowly now, work on his game in the offseason, then by possibly mid-season 08', he should be ready for the role full-time, if not sooner.

But again, that's just my opinion.


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## bullybullz (Jan 28, 2007)

The ROY said:


> Yeah, but by THEN, will he even want to remain a Bull? No #2 pick wants to come off the bench for 4 years to wait for an opprotunity to start. The smart move, IMO, would be to get him prepared for the role slowly now, work on his game in the offseason, then by possibly mid-season 08', he should be ready for the role full-time, if not sooner.
> 
> But again, that's just my opinion.


Tyrus is actually a #4 pick.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

The ROY said:


> Yeah, but by THEN, will he even want to remain a Bull? No #2 pick wants to come off the bench for 4 years to wait for an opprotunity to start. The smart move, IMO, would be to get him prepared for the role slowly now, work on his game in the offseason, then by possibly mid-season 08', he should be ready for the role full-time, if not sooner.
> 
> But again, that's just my opinion.


Four years from now the chances that TT will have had an injury that compromises his hops are pretty high. If he somehow plays more minutes the chances go up even more. Hops are the hard way to succeed in the NBA. It happens, but its rare. 

Tyrus had better learn how to play fundamental basketball, and fast. Hops got him to the big show. Solid defensive positioning, rebounding, shooting and smart play will keep him here. Hope he listens to those who are advising him.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> There's some interesting all-around discussion in this thread, and I don't want to go off on too much of a tangent, but Khryapa? From what I've seen so far, he's an absolutely dreadful basketball player. He seems so... jittery (for lack of a better term) and always a step slow. Perhaps it's the lack of playing time, but hoping Khryapa can guard opposing SF with any consistency is sort of like playing the lottery. Maybe it can happen, but there's no evidence to suggest it will.


Defensively he has solid size, length, and lateral quickness. He's quicker than Noc. I think he would do decently once officials stopped calling all of his touch fouls, as they tend to do with players from deep off the bench.

I agree that he's "jittery" but that's a function of never getting any minutes, wanting to prove himself in the 5 minutes he gets off the bench, and the officials giving him no slack. 

I'm comfortable with Khyrapa defending SFs, hitting an occasional jump shot, and moving the ball. I'm not a fan, but I think he's a decent stopgap.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Now I'm not just ripping our ex-players apart, I'm just keeping perspective. Yeah, Tyson is playing well this year. *Most of his career was spent on struggling Bulls teams that were among the worst ever.* He played well in our one good year with him. as I recall, the general consensus was that his subpar play was one of the significant factors that kept an otherwise fairly nice Bulls roster from getting beyond the 41-41 result of last season.


How does Elton Brand do by this measure? TC's bulls were never as close to being as bad as Elton's Bulls teams including his last one which also included Miller and Artest.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

The ROY said:


> Yeah, but by THEN, will he even want to remain a Bull? No #2 pick wants to come off the bench for 4 years to wait for an opprotunity to start. The smart move, IMO, would be to get him prepared for the role slowly now, work on his game in the offseason, then by possibly mid-season 08', he should be ready for the role full-time, if not sooner.
> 
> But again, that's just my opinion.


First of all that would be bad jib. More importantly though, the way the free agent system is set up these days players virtually never leave their original team. I can't remember the last player to turn down an extension and accept the QO to become an UFA. BG has come off the bench for parts of three seasons and while it was insinutated that he was frustrated at times it seems to have worked out. People are already complaining about Wallace's production and advancing age so it's just awfully hard for me to see this being a major problem two or three years from now. I don't think Pax is going to let a top of the line young play slip away out of deference to a fading star. The players want money and the teams want talent so as I said, these things have a way of working themselves out.


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