# Duncan or Kobe



## TiMVP2 (Jun 19, 2003)

Duncan or Kobe,who would you rather have on your team??

I would take Duncan.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

I'd take Timmy over everyone in the league.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

I don't think this is even debateable. Give me Tim over everyone in the league no contest.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Duncan can't score 35. Kobe can double it, no sweat.

I'd take Kobe.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Kobe can score 50 in three quarters. Duncan can's score 30 in four.

Kobe, easily.


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## TiMVP2 (Jun 19, 2003)

Kobe can get less assists,rebounds,worse defense,less blocks,less getting his teamates involved.

Yeah Duncan all the way.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Duncan can't pass. Kobe can score 80 and deliver 1 assist.

Hence, Kobe.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Duncan is a wuss. Kobe can have multiple sex scandals.

Kobe all the way.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Few... Tired of post-padding.

What is this thread for, anyway?


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## TiMVP2 (Jun 19, 2003)

Arguement with friends,want to see what yall think.

BTW vote in the poll at least lol.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Duncan is a wuss. Kobe can have multiple sex scandals.
> 
> Kobe all the way.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## GTA Addict (Jun 27, 2005)

Duncan. He and Shaq are the best offensive post options in the league, and Duncan is also the best post defender and a top 3 rebounder. Kobe's scoring doesn't match the overall impact of Duncan.


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## TiMVP2 (Jun 19, 2003)

Random Fact:I went to a spurs vs lakers game last year,and Bruce bowen outscored Kobe Bean Bryant.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

TiMVP2 said:


> Random Fact:I went to a spurs vs lakers game last year,and Bruce bowen outscored Kobe Bean Bryant.


Random diatribe:

Today i hate some pizza with anchovies.
Anchovies gives me gas.
No one can stand beside me when i eat some pizza with anchovies.
What should i order tomorrow?


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## Bron_Melo_ROY (Apr 12, 2004)

Tim Duncan...I'd take him over 98% of the players in the NBA.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

You've got to be a complete moron to think you have a better chance of winning with Kobe than with Duncan. Kobe will never come remotely close to another championship without the help of an all-star big man. Big men win championships, bottom line. In fact, pretty much every team that's ever won other than Chicago has had an all-star big man. Duncan's complete back to the basket game spaces the floor and allows Parker and Ginobili room to penetrate and gives room to their shooters. The Spurs' fantastic spacing is all because of Duncan. This is really no contest.


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## TiMVP2 (Jun 19, 2003)

Rodman>Ben Wallace,so i'd say chicago had a bigman.


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## flushingflash (Jan 4, 2006)

duncan over just about anybody at this point.


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## GTA Addict (Jun 27, 2005)

TiMVP2 said:


> Rodman>Ben Wallace,so i'd say chicago had a bigman.


Defensively, yes. But the Bulls never had a go-to scorer in the low post, as opposed to the Pistons (Sheed), Spurs (Duncan), Lakers (Shaq), Rockets (Hakeem), etc.. Jordan and Pippen were always Chicago's best post-up players.


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## SlamJam (Nov 27, 2004)

ok so everyone thinks duncans better. so why do i see people saying kobes the best player in the nba??


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Kobe is the bigger impact player this year in my opinion, but for their careers, Duncan is clearly the superior player.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

dUNCAN BORES ME..So ill go with a Kobe


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## hi im new (Jul 4, 2005)

Is his middle name really Bean or is that some kind of sick joke?


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

Kobe is having a tremendous year. Duncan has been flat-out consistent Best Big Man in the league and MVP candidate year in and year out... no contest here.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

Points aren't everything so Timmy. You'd have a better chance @ winning w/ a great big man.


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## TiMVP2 (Jun 19, 2003)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> dUNCAN BORES ME..So ill go with a Kobe


Good arguement.


and yes his middle name is bean.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

I take Izzo... simply cause he is my favorite player. My perspective (due to my screen name and avvy) will be moot to the rest of you anyway.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

If I want to win basketball games, Duncan.


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## B-Scott (Jan 17, 2006)

add Dunca's talent to the current Laksrs

Mihm
Lamar
Kobe
Gionobli
Parker

they would be 55-27 Contenders

give Duncan Kobes team

C Mihm
SF Duncan
SF Lamar
G Smush
G Sasha

45-37. 4th quarter Duncan wouldnt have that parker or Manu to create off the dribble and take over in the 4th quarter when Duncan is struggling with his free throws. Lamar odom can not get in the paint nearly as well or Parker or Manu


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## B-Scott (Jan 17, 2006)

its easier to be unselfish when you have Toni Parker and Gionobli consistently breaking down the defense,and getting in the paint.

It would be harder for duncan to be unselfish with Sasha and Smush parker unable to create off the dribble,and get in the paint. Both are simply spot up shooters.


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## GTA Addict (Jun 27, 2005)

B-Scott said:


> its easier to be unselfish when you have Toni Parker and Gionobli consistently breaking down the defense,and getting in the paint.
> 
> It would be harder for duncan to be unselfish with Sasha and Smush parker unable to create off the dribble,and get in the paint. Both are simply spot up shooters.


It's Duncan's presence that helps create the spacing necessary for Tony and Manu to drive in the lane. And you seem to be completely ignoring Duncan's defense. He's the best post defender in the league, bar none, and the biggest reason the Spurs have been a top defensive team every season.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

B-Scott said:


> its easier to be unselfish when you have Toni Parker and Gionobli consistently breaking down the defense,and getting in the paint.
> 
> It would be harder for duncan to be unselfish with Sasha and Smush parker unable to create off the dribble,and get in the paint. Both are simply spot up shooters.


So you feel that selfishness is primarily determined by external and not internal factors? Personally, I disagree.


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## TiMVP2 (Jun 19, 2003)

Duncan won 2 mvp without parker and binobily being a star,and 1 without ginobili period.


please.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Anyone who voted for Kobe is mentally retarded.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

duncan's scoring less efficiently this year than allen iverson!


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Kobe :banana: :clap:


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> Kobe :banana: :clap:


 yep


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## magic_bryant (Jan 11, 2004)

kflo said:


> duncan's scoring less efficiently this year than allen iverson!


And people laughed at me when I said that Tony Parker has been the Spurs best player this year. Parker deserves some MVP mention. Sure, Timmy has played good, not great. Parker has elevated to an entirely different level. He's leading the freaking league in Points in the Paint.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Duncan's been injured this year and hasn't been playing as well as he normally does. And Kobe has had his best year ever on both sides of the ball. It's a push at this point, though if Duncan's healthy I take him over Kobe. Not as easy to choose him as it was in the past, though.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

You'd have a chance of winning an NBA Championship with Duncan on your team every single year cuz he's just that great. People talk about how gooood Parker is playing this year and he def is, but who made him be the player he is right now? You can bet is Tim Duncan, he makes those guys around him better.

You can pick Kobe and the league have no problem with that, but you'll just witness couple of spectacular individual performance from him, fans wetting in their pants because of them 60-80 points he rarly scores, which are great and might after all those hard works ignoring your teamates give you a sniff of the playoffs as an 7 or 8 seed. But thats it, Kobe ain''t MJ so he won't lead your team anywhere and thats the truth.

Tim Duncan impacts on the game is much greater than Kobe and THATS A FACT!!!!.

Spurs 36-10


Lakers 24-21

 Judging by both teams record, they're not even in the same league and the poll agrees with me.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Random diatribe:
> 
> Today i hate some pizza with anchovies.
> Anchovies gives me gas.
> ...


anchovie-garlic-onion pizza. that way no one has nay idea which side of you to stand on.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> I'd take Timmy over everyone in the league.


Agree.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

I'll say it again cause it's fun.




KOBE.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Air Fly said:


> You'd have a chance of winning an NBA Championship with Duncan on your team every single year cuz he's just that great. People talk about how gooood Parker is playing this year and he def is, but who made him be the player he is right now? You can bet is Tim Duncan, he makes those guys around him better.
> 
> You can pick Kobe and the league have no problem with that, but you'll just witness couple of spectacular individual performance from him, fans wetting in their pants because of them 60-80 points he rarly scores, which are great and might after all those hard works ignoring your teamates give you a sniff of the playoffs as an 7 or 8 seed. But thats it, Kobe ain''t MJ so he won't lead your team anywhere and thats the truth.
> 
> ...


You could switch Kobe for Duncan and the Spurs would still be the best team in the West and the Lakers would still be struggling to make the playoffs. The Spurs would still be one of the better defensive teams and the Lakers would be mediocre defensively.

I always wonder about this making players thingy. Since Tim Duncan made Tony Parker the player he is, does this mean that Beno Udrich is going to be an All Star with the Spurs soon? Just asking.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

if you like scoring and not making the playoffs...kobe

if you like winning every year and having the best winning percentage in professional sports...tim duncan


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> Spurs 36-10
> 
> 
> Lakers 24-21
> ...


Except that the Spurs have quite a few better players than the Lakers. Yeah, kind of an oversight there.

And, uh, judging by those team records the Lakers are as good as the Nets this year with the best "team player" in the NBA in Jason Kidd.


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## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

Hmm....Duncan is not looking all that great this season. Kobe is looking better than ever. I would still feel comfortable having Duncan's defense there, but I think at this point in time I would take Kobe. If you get further and deeper into this Duncan has a better case because of the personalities and everything, but talent wise Kobe is rather easily better than Duncan.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

EHL said:


> Except that the Spurs have quite a few better players than the Lakers. Yeah, kind of an oversight there.
> 
> And, uh, judging by those team records the Lakers are as good as the Nets this year with the best "team player" in the NBA in Jason Kidd.


LOL

Kobe>Vince Carter+Jason Kidd+Richard Jefferson


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

MemphisX said:


> LOL
> 
> Kobe>Vince Carter+Jason Kidd+Richard Jefferson


true that. Double true.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

EHL said:


> Except that the Spurs have quite a few better players than the Lakers. Yeah, kind of an oversight there.
> 
> And, uh, judging by those team records the Lakers are as good as the Nets this year with the best "team player" in the NBA in Jason Kidd.


If Kidd can't win with Carter and Jefferson at his side, he isn't the best team player. Besides, Nash is the best team player in the NBA anyway.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

i would really like to see how duncan would do with a weak lineup... i guess like Kobes roster...


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Hairy Midget said:


> If Kidd can't win with Carter and Jefferson at his side, he isn't the best team player.


Say what? I was being sarcastic. Jason Kidd is a superb team player. 



> Besides, Nash is the best team player in the NBA anyway.


OK, so 2nd best. Point remains the same.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

EHL said:


> Say what? I was being sarcastic. Jason Kidd is a superb team player.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, so 2nd best. Point remains the same.


I wasn't saying he was a bad team player, but he's not the best for sure.


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## DaBigTicketKG21 (Apr 27, 2003)

This season....give me Kobe!


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

duncan makes teammates better. you can develop a player with duncan on your team...not with kobe. tony parker and manu came in as no-name players to becoming all-stars. and do you know what people say that makes me know that timmy made them better??? how many times have you heard ppl say that manu and tony are only that good because of duncan, that if they were on their own team they would be nothing. you never heard that about any teammate kobe played with. matter of fact kobe played with several people who would perfer not to play with him. kobe basketball gets you nowhere...just look at last season. duncan won 3 championships with 3 different teams.


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## B-Scott (Jan 17, 2006)

GTA Addict said:


> It's Duncan's presence that helps create the spacing necessary for Tony and Manu to drive in the lane. And you seem to be completely ignoring Duncan's defense. He's the best post defender in the league, bar none, and the biggest reason the Spurs have been a top defensive team every season.


You can talk about spacing all you want ,but put Smush parker and Sasha on the spurs and take away Manu and Parker. Duncan would struggle to win 46 games. Talent wize Smush and Sasha are no where close to Manu and Toni Parker. Smush was cut by 3 teams. He can not be trusted with the ball in his hands. Sasha is simply not as athletic as Manu. I cant remember the last time Sasha brke down the D and got a layup. 

Smush and sasha can not get in the paint. Duncan would have to more more aggresive. he wuld not get away with having 11 points. They would be down by 20.


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## B-Scott (Jan 17, 2006)

duncan2k5 said:


> duncan makes teammates better. you can develop a player with duncan on your team...not with kobe. tony parker and manu came in as no-name players to becoming all-stars. and do you know what people say that makes me know that timmy made them better??? how many times have you heard ppl say that manu and tony are only that good because of duncan, that if they were on their own team they would be nothing. you never heard that about any teammate kobe played with. matter of fact kobe played with several people who would perfer not to play with him. kobe basketball gets you nowhere...just look at last season. duncan won 3 championships with 3 different teams.


Duncan can kick back eating popcorn in the 4th quarter on offense,and let Parker and Manu take over. That does not work for Kobe because smush parker is not on Toni parlers level. Sasha/Lamar odom are not on Manu's Guards that can create,and get in the paint.

Toni parker and Manu are way better then Smush and sasha. Neither of these guys can get in the paint. There is a reason Smush parker was cut by 3 teams. he couldnt even get past the phoenix suns training camp. Barbosa made the team over him.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

but lets say manu and tony was drafter by the lakers with kobe leading them. they would not get the opportunity to show their talent with kobe shooting all the shots and laker fans would be saying his teammates suck. do you see now? so smuch and sasha might actually become good players on duncan's team because they would be allowed opportunity to show their talent. how the hell would ppl know what sasha and smush can do if the only shots they get are the rare kobe bryant assist for a jumpshot? if tony was drafter by the lakers ppl would say he sucks because no one would know his talent is driving the basketball. kobe would be hogging the ball and passing to tony...who would probably miss the jumnpshot. get it? and if timmy had the lakers lineup they would be contenders. 

wade had lamar and caron and they made the second round. so im pretty sure timmy could take lamar to the playoffs because he is better than wade's first year and caron butler combined. lamar would be driving to the hole like ginobili. smush would be a slasher/spot up 3 point shooter. george would be our bruce bowen. come on now. kobe isn't in duncan's league. kobe is only equal to timmy with 3 rings. and timmy contrubuted more to his 3 rings than kobe did for his. timmy won 2 MVPs, 3 finals MVPs...DPY...kobe (who ppl claim to be the best scorer in the L) has never even won a scoring title...despite the many shots he attempts


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

B-Scott said:


> Duncan can kick back eating popcorn in the 4th quarter on offense,and let Parker and Manu take over. That does not work for Kobe because smush parker is not on Toni parlers level. Sasha/Lamar odom are not on Manu's Guards that can create,and get in the paint.
> 
> Toni parker and Manu are way better then Smush and sasha. Neither of these guys can get in the paint. There is a reason Smush parker was cut by 3 teams. he couldnt even get past the phoenix suns training camp. Barbosa made the team over him.


Duncan's value isn't in his scoring though. Kobe is a much better scorer than Duncan, he can take over games as a scorer much better than Duncan. 

Duncan's value is in play-to-play efficiency. He is one of the best rebounders, post scorers, help defenders, post defenders, shotblockers, etc. He does it all around the hoop. His value is in helping the team mightily every time down the court on both ends. 

Kobe is just a dominant scorer with a good all-around game and great killer instinct. 

It's apples and oranges. I think Tim Duncan is much easier to build around. He can still do his all the things he does to help teams wins games, while guys like Parker and Ginobili run wild getting in the paint and scoring.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

B-Scott said:


> Duncan can kick back eating popcorn in the 4th quarter on offense,and let Parker and Manu take over. That does not work for Kobe because smush parker is not on Toni parlers level. Sasha/Lamar odom are not on Manu's Guards that can create,and get in the paint.
> 
> Toni parker and Manu are way better then Smush and sasha. Neither of these guys can get in the paint. There is a reason Smush parker was cut by 3 teams. he couldnt even get past the phoenix suns training camp. Barbosa made the team over him.



how would you know that smush and sasha can't drive in the paint if the only time they get the ball is to shoot spot up jumpers? get my point? a player cannot tap their true potential playing with someone like Kobe as opposed to playing with someone like timmy. and smush parker was only playing for the suns when nash went down...i think i would perfer nash and barbosa over smush...but thats just me. remember when smush was scoring 20 a game? look at how many shots he was attempting then, to the number of shots he is attempting now. get it? kobe is sucking up his attempts, so of course he wont get the opportunity to do what he showed he has the ability to do


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## Flanders (Jul 24, 2004)

I'll take Garnett.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> how would you know that smush and sasha can't drive in the paint if the only time they get the ball is to shoot spot up jumpers? get my point?


You have no point. Smush (nor Sasha) have proven they can do anything with the ball no matter how many times they're given it. Watch a few games sometime, other than nationally televised ones I mean.



> a player cannot tap their true potential playing with someone like Kobe as opposed to playing with someone like timmy.


Sure they can, Kobe was doing it when he was dismantling the Spurs during the 3-peat, and in 2004.



> remember when smush was scoring 20 a game? look at how many shots he was attempting then, to the number of shots he is attempting now. get it?


Get what? When Smush was averaging 20 ppg Kobe was averaging *more* shot attempts per game then than he is now. Since Kobe's shot attempts went down Smush's scoring average has taken a noticable fall. Smush just isn't that good. 



> kobe is sucking up his attempts, so of course he wont get the opportunity to do what he showed he has the ability to do


Brilliant.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

whose potential did kobe tap during the three peat???
and you are missing my point. smush and shasha CANT do much when they hardly get the opportunity to. they are turned into spot up shooters because kobe holds the ball...and most times the only times they get to shoot is off a feed. so come with a better arguement plz. i cant believe you are actually arguing that kobe can make ppl better than duncan...LOL. funny lil kid


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> whose potential did kobe tap during the three peat???


No one, that was the point. Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli would be the same players today without Tim Duncan. No player has the magical ability to make other players around him shoot the ball, score the ball, or play defense at an elite level. If you don't have the ability it doesn't matter if you play with Magic Johnson, you're not going to suddenly become a 20 ppg scorer or DPOY because of one great player. 



> and you are missing my point. smush and shasha CANT do much when they hardly get the opportunity to. they are turned into spot up shooters because kobe holds the ball...and most times the only times they get to shoot is off a feed. so come with a better arguement plz.


Dude, you just said that the reason Smush is not averaging 20 ppg anymore is because Kobe is taking more shots now. That's wrong, you just made that up. You have no crux here. 



> i cant believe you are actually arguing that kobe can make ppl better than duncan...LOL. funny lil kid


Actually I'm not. If you had read carefully in the first place, you wouldn't have made this elementary mistake.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

This season is really a testament to Duncan's value and the level of his play since the very beginning of his career.He looks horrible some nights and there isn't much reason to think the plantar fascitis(sic?) is going to get any better.His defense is really far below his standards because his lateral movement is so impaired.

Still in spite of all that his production would be a career year for most all star level players and you can still argue that he's as valuable as any player in the league because he impacts every aspect of the game.He draws the defense in as well as anyone in the league probably and passes as well out of the post as anyone else.He's still one of the top players in the league in spite of playing injured the entire season.
As far helping you win a title I would take him over anyone else.When the
playoffs come around I don't think his foot will bother him so much and in
fact there will be more rest between games and they'll be able to treat his
foot more effectively because of the rest.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Diable said:


> This season is really a testament to Duncan's value and the level of his play since the very beginning of his career.He looks horrible some nights and there isn't much reason to think the plantar fascitis(sic?) is going to get any better.His defense is really far below his standards because his lateral movement is so impaired.
> 
> Still in spite of all that his production would be a career year for most all star level players and you can still argue that he's as valuable as any player in the league because he impacts every aspect of the game.He draws the defense in as well as anyone in the league probably and passes as well out of the post as anyone else.He's still one of the top players in the league in spite of playing injured the entire season.
> As far helping you win a title I would take him over anyone else.When the
> ...


I hope he gets better. It really pains me to see Timmy hobbling around there, not being able to do the things he can normally do. Contrary to popular belief about his supporting cast being godly, the Spurs ship sinks with Duncan. If he is declining, he is taking the Spurs with him. That team lives and dies with him.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> how would you know that smush and sasha can't drive in the paint if the only time they get the ball is to shoot spot up jumpers? get my point? a player cannot tap their true potential playing with someone like Kobe as opposed to playing with someone like timmy. and smush parker was only playing for the suns when nash went down...i think i would perfer nash and barbosa over smush...but thats just me. remember when smush was scoring 20 a game? look at how many shots he was attempting then, to the number of shots he is attempting now. get it? kobe is sucking up his attempts, so of course he wont get the opportunity to do what he showed he has the ability to do


i understand what you are trying to say but its a cop out argument... smush and sasha could get all the opportunities needed... not to mention practice and a coaching staff that is aware of there capabilities... *nobody on this team has magic abilites that are hidden b/c Kobe shoots... as some1 said Smushs best games have actually come the more Kobe shoots... last year every player on the team shot a career high FG% playing with Kobe...*

those are facts man...these guys do not have the ability to get to the rim... Smush can occosianaly and he does, but often misses the layup... Luke Walton misses more open shots than i can count (its not Kobes fault).... no matter how many shots Kobe doesnt take Lamar will continue to make poor decisions and go to his left, Kwame will still drop the ball, and Mihm will still commit 4 first half fouls... cooke is hot about once a month and cold the rest of the time... his best game of the year came when Kobe was jacking up shot after shot in an OT loss to NJ..

if u wanna argue Tim Ducan is better there are many ways to do it... but a cop out 'Kobes teammates aint that bad they just dont get the chance' argument aint gonna fly cuz its bull****... it' been shot down and proven wrong... *amatter of fact Smush Parker has a NBA career now solely b/c he plays in the back court with Kobe and is coached by Phil Jackson...* he wasnt making it in the L... or maybe he didnt get to the hole in Detroit cuz Ben Wallace takes to many shots huh?...


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## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

I'll take Kobe.

For one because I think Duncan has already started to decline. It might just be he's hurt, but then again he is hurt alot the past couple years. Also because if you put Kobe on the Spurs instead of Duncan they'd still be awesome. Put Duncan on the Lakers instead of Kobe and they'd still be average at best.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

on this subject... well, obviously big men are extremely valuable and carry an impact that a wing player cant... then again nobody in a while has looked as good as Kobe and Lebron have this year... i like players who can take over games offensively and bring teams to victory... thats probably cuz i grew up in Chicago a jordan fan and why i am a Kobe fan now... so i am clearly bias...

i think if opperated right having a star player like Kobe is the most deadly weapon when it comes to winning multiple championships but then u need the right peaces and perfect form around it... Shaq + Kobe... or an ultimate group of role players around MJ... a great defense and group around Isiaha... in the later years i think what seperated the Lakers above the Spurs (and it was clear) was Kobes ability to take over and Duncans inability to respond... the Lakers would shut down on defense and have instant offense on the other end... obviously much goes into that but the instant offense was Kobe and only few players (possibly none currently) can do it like he can...

also, i think however, with interior big men, you have a much better opportunity at success... Ducan will never be on a non-atleast second round team, yet hes never won 2 in a row... he's also had great supporting casts... even when it was Kobe and Shaq... the Spur supporting cast was far superior to every one else on the Lakers... there were a lot of bad nights from other players back then...

i cant imagine Duncan replacing Kobe this year on this Laker team and having them find as much or more success...


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## The_Legend_23 (Dec 10, 2005)

Duncan ... sure he doesn't score as much as Kobe ... but he's a better team player, and has averages of 12 rebounds and 2.5 blocks for his career......


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## ballistixxx (Jan 24, 2006)

If i owned the team and wanted to win i would pick duncan
if I just want to watch a game just to get the rush i would pick kobe


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## Krux (Jan 22, 2006)

I'm going with Tim Duncan.


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## bear23 (Feb 28, 2005)

I will take Duncan for his overall game and impact. If i need a scorer, i can get a more efficient scorer than Kobe.


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## ninjarr (Jan 20, 2006)

I don't think people understand how the presence of one player makes the team perform at a higher level.

Tim Duncan makes the Spurs (the individual players) great because of his abilities. The fact that he has the post skill and inside scoring ability to back down his defender means he is located away from the lane, as opposed to merely athletic bigmen who constantly battle for inside position or duck away to backdoor paths. This clears up the middle for slashers like Ginobili and Parker, meaning they have tremendously easier shots/ layups than other guards on other teams. 

Furthermore, Duncan's hands render the opposing bigman useless in the Spurs' offense because he can catch dishes when Parker can't beat his man or runs into the other big. That means that, instead of the interior defense collapsing onto the driver, one side remains open because Tim's man shouldn't leave him. That's how Duncan makes his slashers better.

He also benefits outside shooters by taking their defenders away. Again, his post presence and ability to swing wide for hooks, as well as his accuracy on those shots, means that he draws double teams frequently. When the wings or the 1 come in to strip the ball, he dishes for an open shot. 

Having an elite big man is tremendous for any team. Big men have the closest range to the basket, can do far more moves on the block than wings can do off the dribble, and have the slowest defenders. More importantly, they are in the best position to conduct the pace of the game. An amazing defender in the middle closes up the lane, meaning that opposing players are going to take more jumpshots, more fadeaways, and more 3s- setting up long rebounds that can either result in fast break baskets for his teammates or new offensive sets that allow shooters to set up (masking their athletic deficiencies).

Kobe is amazing. But the placement and role of wings is such that, within the limits of basketball, they are constrained in what they can do. I hate him personally, but (I can't believe I'm going to say this) he is nearing Jordan's ability to flat out take games in the fourth. But very, very, very few pure scoring wings are capable of making their teammates better.


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## B-Scott (Jan 17, 2006)

Smush parker's weakness- Not a very good passer. Has a hard time breaking down his man without getting all out of control. Ball handling skills are average. More of a athletic spot up shooter. When he is making his shots,he looks good that particular game. He is not nearly as quick as Toni Parker with the ball. Basketball IQ- Toni is way above Smush. Smush is a street baller. He struggles to run simple pick n role plays. Mihm could be wide open on a pick n roll,and he wont recognize it. Kobe can break for a alleyoop and he wont see it. This is why he was cut by detroit Cleveland and Phoenix.

Im going to check the record the spurs had when Duncan was injured. I think it was 2 yrs ago. I remember the spurs being like 11-5 without him. Lakers without kobe would struggle to win 15 games all season.


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## B-Scott (Jan 17, 2006)

The Lakers without Kobe would be 20-62

Spurs without Duncan could still be a 40 win team.

Baron davis had to work his butt off trying to keep up with Toni Parker. When he plays the Lakers he doesnt even worry about Smush,unless Smush is overachieving from 3 point range that particular game. He doesnt worry about Smush quickness.

Manu and parker could carry them to 40 wins.

PpL also undersatimate Bruce bowens ability to contain guys like Kobe Wade Lebron. Take away Parker Manu and Bowen and replace them with

1. Lamar odom- Horrible defender at the 3

2 sasha...no where close to Manu

3 smush...no where close to Toni

Duncan would be in foul trouble eevry game. These guys can not stay in front of there man to save there life. Offensively Lamar can not spot up and hit 3 pointers like Bowen. Sasha and Smush are simply now as good as toni and Manu. You would be horrible on defense,because Lamar can not defend the Kobe's Wade's Lebron's. even with Duncans help defense. You would be horrible on the perimiter.


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## HawaiianLaker (Nov 28, 2005)

B-Scott said:


> The Lakers without Kobe would be 20-62
> 
> Spurs without Duncan could still be a 40 win team.
> 
> ...


so you say kobe right


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## ninjarr (Jan 20, 2006)

Why are you faulting a contender for being deep?

There's no question that Kobe is behind the Lakers' success. But I'm going to reference Minstrel on this: NOTHING you do in a season matters to a team unless you win the championship. And as San Antonio and the Lakers have demonstrated, it is far easier to build a team around an elite big man than an elite wing.


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## Wilmatic2 (Oct 30, 2005)

Nothing against Duncan, he's a great franchise player. However, I pick Kobe because I have bias towards him.


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## temp (Mar 22, 2003)

Gentlemen, switch Kobe and Duncan, and the Spurs are a worse version of the Nets.

Parker < Kidd (maybe <=, but a lot of Parker's operating space comes from Duncan)
Ginobili < Carter (Again Ginobili gets a lot of space from Duncan)
Kobe > Jefferson 
The smalls are roughly equal as a group.
at C
Nenad Kristic/Collins > Nazr/Nesterovic
at PF
Neither team has a PF worth beans. You cannot expect Horry to hold up a starting role for 82 games + the playoffs...
Note that the spurs D takes a huge hit with both DPOY candidates (Duncan sent to Lakers, Bowen on bench for Kobe) unavailable as starters.

Net result - 50 wins. Maybe. Assuming that Tony Parker can be effective distributing to wings as he is to a MVP level big in the post. This is not his usual modus operandi.
In summary, this team does not win a championship until it upgrades its bigs by a large amount (and it might need to find another PG ... Mr. Parker's style is not suited to playing with dominant wing scorers, and he might not be able to adapt.) They wouldn't have low draft picks to do the upgrade with, so I really doubt their championship potential in the short to medium term, unless they bite the bullet and ship out Ginobili or Parker ...

Meanwhile the lakers
C- Mihm/Kwame/Bynum
PF - Duncan/Odom/Kwame
SF - Odom/Walton
SG&PG - Sasha V, Smush, Walton, & some D league guys...

The offense will run through the SF position, both Odom & Walton can really pass the ball. the PG & SG have to defend hard and shot spot up jumpers. The C/PF is actually better than the current Spurs (except when they go to Playoff mode Duncan at C and Horry at PF). Depending on who they recruit from the D-league for the SG and PG spots, they would likely also make 50 wins. Odom would get to play, rather than watch Kobe, and the size among C, PF, and SF would result in mismatches. I'll admit, the backcourt is ugly.
Given one offseason, to bring the backcourt up to snuff, which could be done (say Mike James for the MLE, and James White or Mike Gansey from the draft), they could contend. They would have the best group of bigs in the league. Just like the Spurs did in 2005. (if you don't believe me, take a look at the production of the Wallace brothers combined Vs. Duncan in the 2005 final).

Essentially, Duncan > Kobe. 
Spurs w/ Duncan - Championship contenders & possible Dynasty. Lakers W/Duncan, maybe 50 wins, and within 2 offseasons, Championship contenders. Spurs w/ Kobe - 50 wins, trapped in no man's land, not contenders, no low picks to rebuild. Lakers w/Kobe - 40-45 wins, not contenders, maybe a lottery pick to help rebuild.


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## Intense Enigma (Oct 22, 2005)

Tim Duncan,the best player over the past 7 or 8 years in the NBA.period


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

temp had a very nice post, and i will add something to it. notice when parker goes off, ginobili usually doesn't go off, and vice versa? the type of game tony plays, its very difficult for another guard on the same team to have an equally explosive night. so with tony on the lakers, it wont work.

plus back to my initial point. tony is a very good point guard. but he was drafted late. he was a no-name. its not like the spurs inherited great players. they got projects. and they succeeded unter timmy. if tony was drafted by the lakers, he would probably be sucking bench and all the lakers fans would be complaining that he can't shoot and how their supporting cast sucks(because no doubt the only attempts he would get are passes from other players, as opposed to creating on his own). damn near every project the spurs get become decent players. guess which single player has the highest winning percentage in all sports since 97-98? it aint kobe baby. 

if the spurs suddenly traded for t-mac...then i could understand ppl saying duncan isn't that good, it is his supporting cast making him look good. but we got "scrubs" and they became either good role players, or great players. look at steven jackson before he arrived in SA. he was a nobody. bruce bruce was a good defender before, but not near the recognition, nor offensive output that he has on SA...and he is WAAAAAY OLDER NOW. Rasho is always made fun of in the media, but he is one of our best post defenders. he wasn't near as good defensively in minnesota. the only players that i would say didn't become better coming here is finley and nicky (even tho i like nicky a lot...finley is vexing me right now with his slump)

and the spurs are never in the media with fights and soap operas. every soap opera ion the past decade for the lakers had kobe smack dab in the middle of it. dude is a dishonest mofo. i remember when he said he tried to call shaq after he got him traded. then when shaq was asked, shaq said kobe never called him. then kobe made up some bullcrap escuse abouyt not having his number. kobe only says what he thinks will make ppl like him. he sin't to be trusted. i dont want a teammate, or franchize player like that. you all can keep your cheating, lying, conniving, selfish, egotistical player. i'll keep my winner.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> temp had a very nice post, and i will add something to it. notice when parker goes off, ginobili usually doesn't go off, and vice versa? the type of game tony plays, its very difficult for another guard on the same team to have an equally explosive night. so with tony on the lakers, it wont work.
> 
> plus back to my initial point. tony is a very good point guard. but he was drafted late. he was a no-name. its not like the spurs inherited great players. they got projects. and they succeeded unter timmy. if tony was drafted by the lakers, he would probably be sucking bench and all the lakers fans would be complaining that he can't shoot and how their supporting cast sucks(because no doubt the only attempts he would get are passes from other players, as opposed to creating on his own). damn near every project the spurs get become decent players. guess which single player has the highest winning percentage in all sports since 97-98? it aint kobe baby.
> 
> ...


:laugh:


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> i dont want a teammate, or franchize player like that. you all can keep your cheating, lying, conniving, selfish, egotistical player. i'll keep my winner.


yea and i heard he hates dogs too... **** Kobe...

u know, u guys are the defending champs, have a great shot this year, Duncan has 2 MVPS... u have it all there... yet why are you still here creating threads and restating points about a ball hogging, high scoring, apprently snakey ******* who's team is border line playoffs right now?? a little unsure of who is actually the better player? cuz it sounds like ur trying to convince urself of something... u r getting very little if any true resistance in your argument yet you keep trying to explain why you think Duncan is better... interesting...


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

temp said:


> Gentlemen, switch Kobe and Duncan, and the Spurs are a worse version of the Nets.
> 
> Parker < Kidd (maybe <=, but a lot of Parker's operating space comes from Duncan)
> Ginobili < Carter (Again Ginobili gets a lot of space from Duncan)
> ...



"and if the rabbit would have run the farmer wouldnt have shot it"... theres more hypotheticals in here than that ****ing "what if" song by 50 cent...

watch i can do your game too...

i think if the Spurs had Kobe in the early part of this decade then david robinson would have had more feeds into the post and extended his prime longer... with Bowen in the back court defensively Kobe and him would be as formidable defensively as any guard combo in history... not just that but then Kobe could focus more ofensively not having to guard big PGs... plus he wouldnt have to facilitate the offense cuz Parker could... 

and also when the 4th quarter came instead of Tim Ducan hiding, Kobe could put up a big quarter to ensure the win and secure the leads that Duncan so often could not protect...

i didnt think about the off season... oh in the off season we could have got somebody out the D-League who would magically become good and help with rebounding... if we could get somebody who could just board like Duncan the spurs would be str8 cuz offensively Kobe more than makes up for him and ofcourse pressure would be off the post defensively cuz Kobe would bring a perimeter presence... no to mention how much better Robinson would have been cuz he wouldnt be ignored on the post like he was with Duncan... The Spurs probably would have 3-peated instead of the Lakers...


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> temp had a very nice post, and i will add something to it. notice when parker goes off, ginobili usually doesn't go off, and vice versa? the type of game tony plays, its very difficult for another guard on the same team to have an equally explosive night. so with tony on the lakers, it wont work.
> 
> plus back to my initial point. tony is a very good point guard. but he was drafted late. he was a no-name. its not like the spurs inherited great players. they got projects. and they succeeded unter timmy. if tony was drafted by the lakers, he would probably be sucking bench and all the lakers fans would be complaining that he can't shoot and how their supporting cast sucks(because no doubt the only attempts he would get are passes from other players, as opposed to creating on his own). damn near every project the spurs get become decent players. guess which single player has the highest winning percentage in all sports since 97-98? it aint kobe baby.
> 
> ...



excellent points.

also, Popovich needs credit... he drafts smart coachable players, not potentially flashy players.. Parker and Ginobili just happens to be smart flashy players. But as you stated wouldnt do jack if you put on a different team.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

shobe42 said:


> "and if the rabbit would have run the farmer wouldnt have shot it"... theres more hypotheticals in here than that ****ing "what if" song by 50 cent...
> 
> watch i can do your game too...
> 
> ...



i like this game, but if kobe was on the spurs, david would not have been scoring at all. he would be dominating the ball and great leaders like avery johnson would have never been noticed. they would have made the playoffs and lose in the first round due to kobe's selfishness. kobe would have been traded because i doubt Pop could put up with kobe's ego and style of play. kobe co-existed with shaq because shaq was move vocal in stating that he is the leader. with the spurs, robinson was more reserved, so he would have let kobe do his thing, thus killing the team.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> i like this game, but if kobe was on the spurs, david would not have been scoring at all. he would be dominating the ball and great leaders like avery johnson would have never been noticed. they would have made the playoffs and lose in the first round due to kobe's selfishness. kobe would have been traded because i doubt Pop could put up with kobe's ego and style of play. kobe co-existed with shaq because shaq was move vocal in stating that he is the leader. with the spurs, robinson was more reserved, so he would have let kobe do his thing, thus killing the team.


Speaking of killing teams, I'm pretty sure Kobe destroyed the Spurs every single postseason he played against them save for the 1999 season when he was 20. Winning 3 titles and going to a 4th Finals in the process. He seemed to play pretty well with a great big man during that time, despite not liking him. I'm sure Kobe would have gotten along fine with David Robinson and Tim Duncan considering both players took pride in their profession and work ethic. FYI.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

EHL said:


> Speaking of killing teams, I'm pretty sure Kobe destroyed the Spurs every single postseason he played against them save for the 1999 season when he was 20. Winning 3 titles and going to a 4th Finals in the process. He seemed to play pretty well with a great big man during that time, despite not liking him. I'm sure Kobe would have gotten along fine with David Robinson and Tim Duncan considering both players took pride in their profession and work ethic. FYI.


*John, we let you back because we thought you would behave. Do the admins really have to waste their time deciding whether to supsend you _again_?


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

*John, please take your mod questions to PM. Thanks.*


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## AIFAN3 (Sep 17, 2005)

i want to know how people can vote Kobe over Duncan. It's really sad that people value personal stats over wins, and thats by far where duncan gets kobe.

If you are looking to build a franchise the first choice should be duncan mainly because he's a proven winner while Kobe isn't. Kobe might have the better stats but by far the better player in terms of winning is TD hands down.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

99% of the time it's gotta be Timmy.

But who do you think would flourish more in a system like the Suns? Timmy D or Kobe? I'm not exactly picking Kobe here...just putting it out for discusion.


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## ninjarr (Jan 20, 2006)

EHL said:


> Speaking of killing teams, I'm pretty sure Kobe destroyed the Spurs every single postseason he played against them save for the 1999 season when he was 20. Winning 3 titles and going to a 4th Finals in the process. He seemed to play pretty well with a great big man during that time, despite not liking him. I'm sure Kobe would have gotten along fine with David Robinson and Tim Duncan considering both players took pride in their profession and work ethic. FYI.


I have few doubts that Kobe is a huge *******, but I think people are painting an unfair portrait of him as a poison. Kobe is tremendously gifted- but so is Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, and Jason Richardson. All of those players are as athletic or more athletic than Kobe. Tracy is a couple inches taller. With the exception of JRich, those players (as well as the elite wings like Pierce, etc.) have established that they have a comparable sense of basketball. What separates Kobe then?

I think people fail to recognize that almost all of Kobe's shortcomings (his inability to get teammates involved, his inability to coexist peacefully with his teammates, etc.) come from the very thing that makes him the post-Duncan/O'Neal candidate for the GOAT- his intense desire to succeed. It would be totally fallacious to say that Kobe is more "gifted" than either Duncan or Shaq. A player of Duncan's intelligence, size, and dedication is extremely rare, and a player of Shaq's size and mobility is even more so (just ask the dozens of teams that have drafted the "next" Shaq). What aren't rare, however, are athletic, talented shooting guards. 

I've mentioned this before- I'd take Duncan any day, any team, any franchise, whatever. But Kobe has something that puts him on the level of Duncan and Shaq because of one thing that MIGHT be even more desirable than Duncan's and Shaq's dominance- desire. I hate him. Hate him, hate him, hate him. But for every shot he misses, I guarantee you he takes 100 more in practice. For every loss he suffers, I guarantee you he tears his game apart. And that is something to be respected, not criticized.


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## EGarrett (Aug 12, 2002)

Jameh said:


> 99% of the time it's gotta be Timmy.
> 
> But who do you think would flourish more in a system like the Suns? Timmy D or Kobe? I'm not exactly picking Kobe here...just putting it out for discusion.


You're joking, right?

Timmy D would flourish more in a system like the Suns...because with Kobe Bryant your Suns-system would be completely destroyed.


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## KingHandles (Mar 19, 2005)

Timmy D.

I would hate to have to watch KB take all those shots and be a complete ball hog every night. Tim is a better team player, and is just as capable a scorer as Kobe...


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

EGarrett said:


> You're joking, right?
> 
> Timmy D would flourish more in a system like the Suns...because with Kobe Bryant your Suns-system would be completely destroyed.


lol

How's that? The suns play a high tempo, face paced O. They want their best shooters taking the shots, how would Kobe not be great in that system? He can dunk, he can run, he can pass (contrary to popular belief), and most obvious...he can score.

If you missed the part where I said 99.9% of the time I'd pick Timmy then I'll say it again for ya :biggrin:


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

EHL said:


> Speaking of killing teams, I'm pretty sure Kobe destroyed the Spurs every single postseason he played against them save for the 1999 season when he was 20. Winning 3 titles and going to a 4th Finals in the process. He seemed to play pretty well with a great big man during that time, despite not liking him. I'm sure Kobe would have gotten along fine with David Robinson and Tim Duncan considering both players took pride in their profession and work ethic. FYI.


he sure killed us in teh 2003 season when we sent him home crying...DAMN THAT KOBE :curse:


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

Jameh said:


> lol
> 
> How's that? The suns play a high tempo, face paced O. They want their best shooters taking the shots, how would Kobe not be great in that system? He can dunk, he can run, he can pass (contrary to popular belief), and most obvious...he can score.
> 
> If you missed the part where I said 99.9% of the time I'd pick Timmy then I'll say it again for ya :biggrin:


kobe is a player than needs the ball in his hands to be effective. he is not a rip hamilton-type player. duncan doesn't need the ball to be effective. nash has the ball in his hands for most of the suns offense. if kobe was on the suns i can imagine him waving to nash to gove him the ball like he does on the lakers.


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## ninjarr (Jan 20, 2006)

EGarrett said:


> You're joking, right?
> 
> Timmy D would flourish more in a system like the Suns...because with Kobe Bryant your Suns-system would be completely destroyed.


I think players of Duncan's and Kobe's ability dictate the systems of their teams. It's not like the Suns would be receiving role players.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

EHL said:


> Speaking of killing teams, I'm pretty sure Kobe destroyed the Spurs every single postseason he played against them save for the 1999 season when he was 20. Winning 3 titles and going to a 4th Finals in the process. He seemed to play pretty well with a great big man during that time, despite not liking him. I'm sure Kobe would have gotten along fine with David Robinson and Tim Duncan considering both players took pride in their profession and work ethic. FYI.


he "played" well with shaq (but didn't get along with him), because shaq let him know he was the man. timmy and david dont have the "it's my team" personality, so kobe would go gunslinger on the spurs until ge got his behind traded.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

ninjarr said:


> I have few doubts that Kobe is a huge *******, but I think people are painting an unfair portrait of him as a poison. Kobe is tremendously gifted- but so is Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, and Jason Richardson. All of those players are as athletic or more athletic than Kobe. Tracy is a couple inches taller. With the exception of JRich, those players (as well as the elite wings like Pierce, etc.) have established that they have a comparable sense of basketball. What separates Kobe then?
> 
> I think people fail to recognize that almost all of Kobe's shortcomings (his inability to get teammates involved, his inability to coexist peacefully with his teammates, etc.) come from the very thing that makes him the post-Duncan/O'Neal candidate for the GOAT- his intense desire to succeed. It would be totally fallacious to say that Kobe is more "gifted" than either Duncan or Shaq. A player of Duncan's intelligence, size, and dedication is extremely rare, and a player of Shaq's size and mobility is even more so (just ask the dozens of teams that have drafted the "next" Shaq). What aren't rare, however, are athletic, talented shooting guards.
> 
> I've mentioned this before- I'd take Duncan any day, any team, any franchise, whatever. But Kobe has something that puts him on the level of Duncan and Shaq because of one thing that MIGHT be even more desirable than Duncan's and Shaq's dominance- desire. I hate him. Hate him, hate him, hate him. But for every shot he misses, I guarantee you he takes 100 more in practice. For every loss he suffers, I guarantee you he tears his game apart. And that is something to be respected, not criticized.



Nice post. I take Timmy D over the Kobester every time but I think it is closer than most people are making it out to be.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> he sure killed us in teh 2003 season when we sent him home crying...DAMN THAT KOBE :curse:


Kobe vs. San Antonio (playoffs):

2001: 33.2ppg (.514FG%) 7rpg, 7apg
2002: 26.2 (.454FG%) - 5.4 - 4.8
2003: 32.3 (.434FG%) - 5.0 - 3.6
2004: 26.3 (.461FG%) - 6.5 - 5.8

Games under 20 points: 1
Games with 20 or more points: 20
Games with 30 or more points: 9
Games with 40 or more points: 2
Total games played: 21

What the **** are you talking about?


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> Kobe vs. San Antonio (playoffs):
> 
> 2001: 33.2ppg (.514FG%) 7rpg, 7apg
> 2002: 26.2 (.454FG%) - 5.4 - 4.8
> ...


The stats don't lie.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

duncan2k5 said:


> kobe is a player than needs the ball in his hands to be effective. he is not a rip hamilton-type player. duncan doesn't need the ball to be effective. nash has the ball in his hands for most of the suns offense. if kobe was on the suns i can imagine him waving to nash to gove him the ball like he does on the lakers.


Yeah he asks for the ball, because who else is going to score for them? Sasha? That's laughable. Kwame maybe? Doubt it...and you know what the Lakers record is when Odom takes more than 15 shots...like 0-8 or something around that. Like that one guy said, Kobe has the desire to win...but he knows just as well as the rest of the teams in the NBA that the Lakers CAN'T win without Kobe. He is their offense. Surround him with good players, and watch out.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Kobe vs. San Antonio (playoffs):
> 
> 2001: 33.2ppg (.514FG%) 7rpg, 7apg
> 2002: 26.2 (.454FG%) - 5.4 - 4.8
> ...


why did you exclude the sweep in 99? and the only year i brought up was 2003. so i dont know what you are reaching for, but you obviously aint getting it. and ask any spur fan, shaq was our main concern in the playoffs. i would take kobe shooting 43% over shaq shooting 50+% any day. look at how well kobe does against us when there is no shaq on the team. get the correlation? kobe rerely lit us up to where we were getting worried about it. i remember when bruce lit him up in the playoffs by hitting all 7 threes. and they say kobe has defense. defense my anus. overrated big time. i remember laker fans saying his D is as good as artest and bruce. LOL. you laker fans are funny. anyway continue reaching for whatever you were reaching for...u might be able to convince yourself


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> why did you exclude the sweep in 99?


All right, if you want to know how a 20 year old Kobe did: 21.2ppg (.447FG%) - 6.5 - 3.5...
Games under 20 points: 1
Games with 20 or more points: 3



> and the only year i brought up was 2003. so i dont know what you are reaching for, but you obviously aint getting it. and ask any spur fan, shaq was our main concern in the playoffs. i would take kobe shooting 43% over shaq shooting 50+% any day. look at how well kobe does against us when there is no shaq on the team. get the correlation? kobe rerely lit us up to where we were getting worried about it. i remember when bruce lit him up in the playoffs by hitting all 7 threes. and they say kobe has defense. defense my anus. overrated big time. i remember laker fans saying his D is as good as artest and bruce. LOL. you laker fans are funny. anyway continue reaching for whatever you were reaching for...u might be able to convince yourself


You are the one not getting it.

Trying to respond to EHL (who said Kobe used to play weel against the Spurs), you had that little childish remark "oo-oooh, how he cried in 2003!".

From that remark i instantly assumed you haven't seen much of Kobe's history in the playoffs against San Antonio.

So i looked up the stats for you.

Gey it now?


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

i dont care what u say about tim or kobe for who you want?

in the words of Brian Shaw: "Kobe Bryant just has something for the Sanantonio Spurs"

but when they payed head to head the only time the Spurs prevailed was 03... Kobe was a Spur killer and most of the time Duncan was standin by doing nothing... there was even a game where Kobe grabbed an offensive board over him and put it in for the win...

thru out the rivalry Spurs/Lakers... the Lakers clearly prevailed... Spurs took the asterisk year... then Phil came and LA won 3 in a row (one time we beat them by like 20 ppg)... finally the Spurs won another... Lakers came back and stopped the Spurs 4 times in a row... after the team broke up Spurs took it last year... but they still got a long way to go... they havent even won 2 in a row yet... Lakers took 3...


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

shobe42 said:


> i dont care what u say about tim or kobe for who you want?
> 
> in the words of Brian Shaw: "Kobe Bryant just has something for the Sanantonio Spurs"
> 
> but when they payed head to head the only time the Spurs prevailed was 03... Kobe was a Spur killer and most of the time Duncan was standin by doing nothing... *there was even a game where Kobe grabbed an offensive board over him and put it in for the win...*


Over Duncan AND Robinson, in fact. :biggrin:


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> Over Duncan AND Robinson, in fact. :biggrin:


true... but Duncan2k5 or somebody will probably come back and point out that Kobe needed another offensive reb that day and probably the only reason he did it was for stat padding purposes... who could argue that though?


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

shobe42 said:


> i dont care what u say about tim or kobe for who you want?
> 
> in the words of Brian Shaw: "Kobe Bryant just has something for the Sanantonio Spurs"
> 
> ...


 you dont know basketball. that wasn't against the spurs brother. 

and duncan standing by doing nothing? you really dont know ball...LOL duncan only played in 4 whole series against the lakers brother. he won two and lost two...there was the series when he didn't play at all due to injury, then one when he missed games because his father died. you dont really watch games anyway. and i think kobe was the one doing nothing if u comparing him to duncan. duncan is one of the only players in NBA history to get finals MVP each of the three times he went to the finals. kobe doesn't usually have good games against the spurs. there was even a graphic on TV showing his career shooting percentage against the spurs compared to his career percentage against every other team...not even close. and didn't he go 9-33 against us this year? some spur killer. bruce keeps him in check. so PLEASE find an arguement before i completely ignore your foolishness


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

duncan2k5 said:


> you dont know basketball. that wasn't against the spurs brother.
> 
> and duncan standing by doing nothing? you really dont know ball...LOL duncan only played in 4 whole series against the lakers brother. he won two and lost two...there was the series when he didn't play at all due to injury, then one when he missed games because his father died. you dont really watch games anyway. and i think kobe was the one doing nothing if u comparing him to duncan. duncan is one of the only players in NBA history to get finals MVP each of the three times he went to the finals. kobe doesn't usually have good games against the spurs. there was even a graphic on TV showing his career shooting percentage against the spurs compared to his career percentage against every other team...not even close. and didn't he go 9-33 against us this year? some spur killer. bruce keeps him in check. so PLEASE find an arguement before i completely ignore your foolishness


How come when someone disagrees with you the "don't know ball"?


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

OKAY smart guy lets do this...


duncan2k5 said:


> you dont know basketball. that wasn't against the spurs brother.


2002 2nd Round... Lakers won the series 4-1... in Game 4 Kobe put in 12 in the 4th quarter... on the last play down 1, Kobe lost the ball and Fish took the shot, he clanked it off the rim... Duncan and Robinson went up for the board and Kobe rose above both grabbed it and put it in for the win...

now those are some facts for your ***..



> and duncan standing by doing nothing? you really dont know ball...


in 2001 when the Lakers sweeped the Spurs winning by about 20 ppg (haha) Duncan had a very bad series... this is the series that Phil first started answering comparisons between Kobe & MJ... to this day he still says this is the best ball Kobe ever played...

in 2002, the series was 1-1 before the Spurs gave up three straight 4th quarter leads... in games 3 & 4 Kobe took over in the 4th and Duncan stood by his reputation of not doing so (understood that isnt his game)...

in 2004, the Spurs led the series 2-0 and looked unstoppable... the Lakers went on to win 4 straight to knock out the Spurs... Duncan along with Parker completely fell by the way side... Kobe on the other hand had an excellent series, in a key game 4, Kobe returned from a trial to score 42 pts, which Barkley (who doesnt like Kobe)called one of the best playoff performances he ever seen...

in game 5 Kobe collapsed after the game and needed an IV, but not before putting in a huge shot with 11 sec left... famously Duncan hit a lucky shot only to be trumped by Fishers own lucky shot...

in game 6 Kobe threw in 16 4th quarter pts to ice it...

*NEXT* 



> LOL duncan only played in 4 whole series against the lakers brother.
> he won two and lost two...


lol, ur wrong brother...

99 - spurs over lakers in the old forum and an embarasing sweep (Kobe was 20)
phil came 
01- lakers over spurs (won by 20 ppg)
02- lakers over spurs 4-1
03-spurs over lakers 4-2... IN GAME 6 DUNCAN PLAYED AN INCREDIBLE GAME... this playoff stretch partially changed my opinoin of his performance in big moments (but he hasnt done much to help it since)
04-Lakers over Spurs 4-2...

thats 5... lakers won 3-2... but in the phil jackson era it-s 3-1 Lakers...



> you dont really watch games anyway.


HAHAHA... how do u know that?... well i proved that **** wrong... i have never missed a Laker playoff game since 2000 (Pheonix series)... i hardly miss any reg. season games...



> and i think kobe was the one doing nothing if u comparing him to duncan.


yup... proved that wrong... wat are ur facts?? if u want to say that Duncan is a better player for a team than Kobe is by all means go ahead, cuz u will have a very strong argument (maybe not you, but hypothetically somebody could)... however, the two verse each other or verse others in the playoffs and in critical times is not much of an argument... as i have partly shown above...



> duncan is one of the only players in NBA history to get finals MVP each of the three times he went to the finals.


good for him, and i am very happy... this has little to do with the argument, but while we are on the subject... last year many felt Ginobli deserved it, regardless... in a key game (i cant remember if it was 5 or 6) Horry bailed the team out taking over in the 4th and OT while Duncan, well, didnt do a whole bunch...



> kobe doesn't usually have good games against the spurs. there was even a graphic on TV showing his career shooting percentage against the spurs compared to his career percentage against every other team...


true in reg season... Kobe is not great percentage wise vs the Spurs... Bowen does a good job on him compared to most of the NBA... but in the playoffs, player please... just go over the games i layed out for you... that cat demolishes the Spurs in the playoffs...



> and didn't he go 9-33 against us this year? some spur killer.


WOW! i bring up multiple playoff games.. and u talk about the 1st meeting in the regular season this year... nice work... 



> so PLEASE find an arguement before i completely ignore your foolishness


argument found.

now lets see some facts... dont try tellin me that "i dont know ball" and "dont watch the games"... try to form a real argument... good luck...

check the sig


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

shobe42 said:


> OKAY smart guy lets do this...
> 
> 2002 2nd Round... Lakers won the series 4-1... in Game 4 Kobe put in 12 in the 4th quarter... on the last play down 1, Kobe lost the ball and Fish took the shot, he clanked it off the rim... Duncan and Robinson went up for the board and Kobe rose above both grabbed it and put it in for the win...
> 
> ...


i see now that u dont know ball, or u can't read. i said duncan didnt play in an entire series...the SPURS played, but DUNCAN didnt because he was injured. then he didnt play in several games in another series because his father died and he came home for the funeral. LOL...so your lakers won some of those un a duncan-less SPURS...congrats. and how many finals MVP has kobe won? how many has duncan won? so i would say duncan has done more in the big moments in the playoffs than kobe. duncan has been MONEY on finals clinching games, while kobe has been shooting 38% and ignoring his teammates to give detroit their 3rd ring. some superstar.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> i see now that u dont know ball, or u can't read. i said duncan didnt play in an entire series...the SPURS played, but DUNCAN didnt because he was injured. then he didnt play in several games in another series because his father died and he came home for the funeral. LOL...so your lakers won some of those un a duncan-less SPURS...congrats. and how many finals MVP has kobe won? how many has duncan won? so i would say duncan has done more in the big moments in the playoffs than kobe. duncan has been MONEY on finals clinching games, while kobe has been shooting 38% and ignoring his teammates to give detroit their 3rd ring. some superstar.


Lame.

Really lame.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> i said duncan didnt play in an entire series...the SPURS played, but DUNCAN didnt because he was injured. then he didnt play in several games in another series because his father died and he came home for the funeral. LOL...so your lakers won some of those un a duncan-less SPURS...congrats.


wrong... duncan only didnt play in the 2000 playoffs due to injuries... a year where the spurs didnt play the lakers... good try though...

and which series did he miss games cuz his father died... are you sure that was verse the Lakers... if so i need u to tell me a year cuz i sure as hell dont remember it... it wasnt 2004... i dont believe it was 2002... was it 2001? i remember him playing but nobody was coming close to the Lakers anyway... if it wasnt one of those... then he didnt play in a series that they won anyway...

so 'cmon i know i cant read and all, but so far i've given years, facts, and examples while u have failed to do anything...


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

A matter of fact i;m not letting u off that easy... i;m calling u out...

2 posts ago i gave numerous examples of Kobe outplaying Duncan (and the whole spurs team for that matter) in critical games and moments... i also gave the teams series since 99... and how it all went down...

so im challenging u to take the games and situations i layed out and *prove me wrong* with something other than "Kobe is a ballhog, *******, bad teammate"...

*i've taken ur opinoins and your made up facts (duncan missing a series??) and completely proved u wrong with facts and things that really happened... let's see what u can do...*


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## B-Scott (Jan 17, 2006)

Charles barkley Kenny smith and Doug collins all said Kobe was MVP of the Western conference finals in 2001 and 2002. 

Barkley made a comment about shaq being MVP of the Junior varsity championship. Surpising coming from him because he hates kobe now after the shaq incident. 

Everyone knows the Western conference was much tougher then the NBA FINALS. The new jersey nets was a cakewalk compared to Sacremento San antonio Portland. Same with Philadelphia.

2002- Spurs had the lead in every game of that series. In all Laker victories the spurs had full control in the 4th quarter,and Mr Kobe Bean bryant took over in the 4th quarter .

2001. Kobe destroyed the spurs. This is the series,that made Pop go out and get Bruce bowen. Spurs fans talk about how Duncan makes guys better defenders NOT TRUE...Kobe TORCHED Antonio daniels. He averaged like 35 points and shot 52 percent.

Bruce bowen makes kobe work. Kobe's FG percentage in 2002 and 2004 was far down from 2001 playoffs. This is why i laugh when spurs fans say Duncan can take last yrs Lakers far in the playoffs. No Manu No Parker No Bowen. Especially on D

Replace that with Lamar butler atkins. They are horrible on defense.


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## B-Scott (Jan 17, 2006)

this is why i wish the Lakers made that artest for Bynum deal. Pacers offered Artest and Jeff foster for Bynum George and slava,and Lakers turned it down.

Get kobe a championship caliber squad so we can whip up on the spurs again. Its not fair to compare duncna vs kobe now,when kobe is in a completely different position from Duncan right now as far a team talent. Give kobe a squad,and he beats Duncan again.

C Jeff foster
PF Kwame
SF Lamar
G Artest
G Kobe


Lakers could have had that squad,had they made the Bynum for artest deal. Give kobe talent,and he will take it past the spurs. Spurs fans know this.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

shobe42 said:


> A matter of fact i;m not letting u off that easy... i;m calling u out...
> 
> 2 posts ago i gave numerous examples of Kobe outplaying Duncan (and the whole spurs team for that matter) in critical games and moments... i also gave the teams series since 99... and how it all went down...
> 
> ...


i did give an example. in 2004 when he shot the lakers out of the finals with his ballhogging. i would have slapped him if i was shaq. he might has well have airballed several straight shots like he did in utah with the way he was shooting (38%). or are you talking about kobe against the spurs? where it is shown that he has a lower career FG% against them than every other team in the NBA? hmmm...you pick buddy


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

B-Scott said:


> this is why i wish the Lakers made that artest for Bynum deal. Pacers offered Artest and Jeff foster for Bynum George and slava,and Lakers turned it down.
> 
> Get kobe a championship caliber squad so we can whip up on the spurs again. Its not fair to compare duncna vs kobe now,when kobe is in a completely different position from Duncan right now as far a team talent. Give kobe a squad,and he beats Duncan again.
> 
> ...


ask any spurs fan. kobe wasn't what we were afraid of. ot was the big DEISEL. shaq always gives his team a chance to win against the spurs because he is a match up problem. kobe isn't a match up problem because he has a career bad FG% vs the spurs. so HE doesn't kill us. its shaq. lakers fans know this. all laker fans i know say that bowen gives him problems. they wont admit it to a spur fan, but when they talk amongst themselves they admit it. if kobe couldn't beat the spurs, nor take the team he had last year to the playoffs, there is no way in hell they would beat them in a 7 game series. they could hardly do it with shaq (when duncan plays in the whole series). Kwame? are you serious? kwame's idea of good defense is standing still with his hands up...and he still picks up fouls by trying to use his lower body. he flat out sucks. duncan is better thanjeff foster, kwame and lamar combined...so thats no contest. kobe is canceled out by bowen, and artest can't do it by himself. plus manu is a pretty good defender. so though it was a decent pipe dream...thats all it is. when the shaq-less lakers can pick up a decent free agent...then talk to me about you contending against the spurs. until then, dont even mention the word "spur" to me again. you guys aren't in our league


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

It's apples and oranges. One is an all-around player, big man, one of the best defenders and rebounders in the league, while also having one of the best low-block games on offense, but being very unselfish and wanting to play the team game. The other is a guard and primarily a dominant scorer. Doesn't create space for his teammates as much, doesn't have near the impact on defense, doesn't rebound as well, but is the best scorer the league has seen since Jordan. 

Personally, I would pick Duncan over Kobe, though. Great big men are just too hard to find. Kobe is having the better year than Duncan, but Duncan has been the best player in the world for the past 5 years. The only thing that would flip that, is if Duncan is declining like it looks like he may be. Otherwise, Duncan is the relatively easy choice. 

Tim Duncan is the easiest player in the league to build around, by far.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> i did give an example. in 2004 when he shot the lakers out of the finals with his ballhogging. i would have slapped him if i was shaq. he might has well have airballed several straight shots like he did in utah with the way he was shooting (38%). or are you talking about kobe against the spurs? where it is shown that he has a lower career FG% against them than every other team in the NBA? hmmm...you pick buddy


as for the Detroit series the onl game they won was cuz of Kobe at the end (the whole team failed that series) other than Kobe and Shaq nobody else got into double figures till game 5... it was slava

were talking about the spurs though... playoffs.... Kobe has shot about 45% vs them in the playoffs... Kobe dominated the SPurs in 2001... *then Bruce Bowen came... i guess that Duncan just couldnt MAKE antonio daniels a good defender... apparently the Spurs were so unafraid of Kobe that they went out and got one of the best on ball defenders in the NBA... * Kobe still killed em in 2002 taking over every game in the 4th... and in 2004 beating the Spurs when no one thought they would... 2003 no, yall won...

*and what happened to all those games and series Duncan missed, were u mistaken now?*


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

edit: double post


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> kobe is canceled out by bowen,


yea.. you're right... Duncan and Bowen played all these series in their entirety... for the record Duncan never missed a series vs LAL

2002: 26.2 (.454FG%) - 5.4 - 4.8 (2 game winning shot)
2003: 32.3 (.434FG%) - 5.0 - 3.6
2004: 26.3 (.461FG%) - 6.5 - 5.8 (a 42 pt game, and anutha one wit a 16 pt 4th)

look how Kobe was a non-factor... damn that Bruce Bowen...

i think Bruce does the best job of anybody in the L on Kobe, but he still gets dominated like every1 else... Kobe is the best scorer in the L and nobody can stop him... Bowen just makes him work a little harder for it... at times... even Bowen admits that...


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

shobe42 said:


> as for the Detroit series the onl game they won was cuz of Kobe at the end (the whole team failed that series) other than Kobe and Shaq nobody else got into double figures till game 5... it was slava
> 
> were talking about the spurs though... playoffs.... Kobe has shot about 45% vs them in the playoffs... Kobe dominated the SPurs in 2001... *then Bruce Bowen came... i guess that Duncan just couldnt MAKE antonio daniels a good defender... apparently the Spurs were so unafraid of Kobe that they went out and got one of the best on ball defenders in the NBA... * Kobe still killed em in 2002 taking over every game in the 4th... and in 2004 beating the Spurs when no one thought they would... 2003 no, yall won...
> 
> *and what happened to all those games and series Duncan missed, were u mistaken now?*


kobe doesn't average 45% in the playoffs NOR the regular season vs the playoffs. nice magical number you made up though. and the spurs lost the series in the games duncan missed (which they should). and i guess we took horry because kobe couldn't make him hit clutch shots in 2003 (similar analogy to duncan not mnaking daniels better). and kobe hit that overtime buzzerbeater why? because of SHAQ DADDY. lakers were down be like 9 with about 3 minutes to go and shaq took over. he was hitting everything. and-1s, freethrows. shaq brought the lakers back. he better have had or the lakers would have been swept because of kobe's selfishness


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> kobe doesn't average 45% in the playoffs NOR the regular season vs the playoffs. nice magical number you made up though. and the spurs lost the series in the games duncan missed (which they should). and i guess we took horry because kobe couldn't make him hit clutch shots in 2003 (similar analogy to duncan not mnaking daniels better). and kobe hit that overtime buzzerbeater why? because of SHAQ DADDY. lakers were down be like 9 with about 3 minutes to go and shaq took over. he was hitting everything. and-1s, freethrows. shaq brought the lakers back. he better have had or the lakers would have been swept because of kobe's selfishness


okay i showed u stats of what Kobe shot... i could even mail u taped games of Kobe outscoring the SPurs team in the 4th quarter to bring em back... you could look up the articles in archives im sure... i didnt make up 45%... 46, 43, and 45 shooting is roughly high 44 low 45 percent... those are the bowen years not counting 2001 where he shot over 50%... i have layed out all the facts... u have yet to lay one... gimme a game where shaq put in and ones and took over in the final three minutes... that was never how the Lakers won games... PJ acknowledge his unwillingness to go to Shaq in late moments... 

the lakers would have been swept... since PJ came the only sweep to occur was the Lakers sweeping the Spurs in 2k1 by 20 ppg (the most lopsided WCF in NBA History).... 

u still havent tellin me a game or year where duncan missed vs the LAkers...

until u give me a fact or show somehing true or answer my questions this is over... blind homerism cannot be shut up i suppose... 

*its funny b/c b4 this thread i had always though u were a quality poster but i have never seen such pathetic arguments without information since Grizzo was fighting for Kobe... ur stance is one thing, but if u dont got facts or reasons u got no argument...*


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

shobe42 said:


> yea.. you're right... Duncan and Bowen played all these series in their entirety... for the record Duncan never missed a series vs LAL
> 
> 2002: 26.2 (.454FG%) - 5.4 - 4.8 (2 game winning shot)
> 2003: 32.3 (.434FG%) - 5.0 - 3.6
> ...


how does he dominate bowen when bowen causes him to shoot a lower FG% than his career average? and he shoots a bad percentage to begin with.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> how does he dominate bowen when bowen causes him to shoot a lower FG% than his career average? and he shoots a bad percentage to begin with.


i was gonna leave u wit a MJ quote and be out but ill answer ur question 1st cuz u unfortunatley dont understand, and being the nice person i am i want to help u...

Bryant is a career FG% of 45.1%, in the playoffs he is 43.4%... both of those stats are very respectable for a guard who scores as much as Kobe... 

*in the playoffs v.s. Bowen Kobe has shot 44.9%... that means he shoots only .2% less than his career and actually in the playoffs he shoots 1.5% BETTER against Bowen than he does against other teams and players...* 

*Kobe also put up 28.2 ppg (better than his season avg in all but one of those yrs), 5.7 rpg (better than all but 1 season), and 4.75 apg verse Bowen in those 3 years...* 

theres some stats for ur ***... combine that with being up in that series 2-1, two 40 pt games (one, which was game 4 in 2004 which Barkley called one of the best playoff performances hes ever witnessed), a few game winning shots, and better stats than he had during the year vs Bowen would say Bowen got dominated...

i dont think u will argue Kobe is a dominant player, well if he actually put up better numbers than usual and had as many heroic performances as usual against Bowen wouldn't that continue to make him dominant...

*by the way what game did Duncan miss in what year??? im still waiting for u to backup ur bull****...* 

as for Kobe this year? i'll leave u with this... a quote from the GOAT



> Bryant has often said the he fashions his game after the 10-time NBA scoring leader. Jordan said he can see some similarities.
> 
> "You see him playing with any of the elite guys in the league ... he's going to guard them defensively and he will beg for them to guard him on the other end. That's my approach. I would do the same thing."
> 
> ...


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

shobe42 said:


> okay i showed u stats of what Kobe shot... i could even mail u taped games of Kobe outscoring the SPurs team in the 4th quarter to bring em back... you could look up the articles in archives im sure... i didnt make up 45%... 46, 43, and 45 shooting is roughly high 44 low 45 percent... those are the bowen years not counting 2001 where he shot over 50%... i have layed out all the facts... u have yet to lay one... gimme a game where shaq put in and ones and took over in the final three minutes... that was never how the Lakers won games... PJ acknowledge his unwillingness to go to Shaq in late moments...
> 
> the lakers would have been swept... since PJ came the only sweep to occur was the Lakers sweeping the Spurs in 2k1 by 20 ppg (the most lopsided WCF in NBA History)....
> 
> ...


you are right. i am wrong. i admit i made a mistake. it was the blazers series and the sonics series i was talking about that duncan missed. sorry for me acting like an a$$. honestly. 

this in where shaq delivered for them: "Bryant missed a 3-pointer but O'Neal grabbed the rebound. He made a layup as he was inexplicably fouled by Ben Wallace, then sank a huge free throw that made it a one-possession game with 35 seconds left."

"O'Neal battled late foul trouble to score 29 points, breaking Michael Jordan's record of 20 consecutive 25-point games in the Finals. Walton, who did not play in Game 1, sparked the offense with seven points and eight assists. 

"It amazes me how he can give me the ball and guys that have been playing with me four, five, six years can't give me the ball," O'Neal said. "He got it about six, seven times to me." 

i cant find kobe's career FG% against the spurs since bowen was there, but it was on sportscenter and it was about 42%. and didn't the spurs sweep the lakers in 99?


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> you dont know basketball. that wasn't against the spurs brother.


ROFL, you either have short term memory, blocked out that play, or have only been watching basketball recently. Ask Koko or TheRoc5, some real Spurs fans, and I'm pretty sure they'll tell you about that play.

Heres the PBP: http://scores.nba.com/games/20020512/LALSAS/PlayByPlayPrint.html
(0:07) [LAL] Fisher Jump Shot: Missed
(0:05) [LAL 87-85] Bryant Layup Shot: Made (28 PTS)
(0:05) [LAL] Bryant Rebound (Off:3 Def:4)
(0:05) [SAN] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:05) [SAN] Parker Substitution replaced by Daniels
(0:05) [SAN] Bowen Substitution replaced by Smith
(0:03) [LAL] Horry Foul: Personal (4 PF)
(0:03) [SAN] Team Timeout: Regular
(0:03) [SAN] Robinson Substitution replaced by Porter
(0:00) [SAN] Duncan Jump Shot: Missed
(0:00) [SAN] Team Rebound
(0:00) End Game LAL 87, SAN 85

Heres an article, link.

```
Game  	4th Q.  Total 
1  	5  	20 
2  	8  	26 
3  	11  	31 
4  	12  	28 
5  	10  	26
```



Anyways getting back on topic, I would choose Duncan over anyone in the league. If there were a draft of all the players right now, all coming in at age 20, I'd only choose Shaq over Duncan. Kobe is great no doubt, but I feel it's harded to build around him than it is Duncan, which is pretty obvious.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

kobe has a lower CAREER FG% AGAINST BOWEN. CAREER...CAREER...CAREER. stop singling out instances. im talkin about CAREER. and MJ didn't say he was the best. he was just stating the obvious...he is ONE of the best in his opinion.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

HallOfFamer said:


> ROFL, you either have short term memory, blocked out that play, or have only been watching basketball recently. Ask Koko or TheRoc5, some real Spurs fans, and I'm pretty sure they'll tell you about that play.
> 
> Heres the PBP: http://scores.nba.com/games/20020512/LALSAS/PlayByPlayPrint.html
> (0:07) [LAL] Fisher Jump Shot: Missed
> ...


i stand corrected. i thought he did it against the Mavs.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> you are right. i am wrong. i admit i made a mistake. it was the blazers series and the sonics series i was talking about that duncan missed. sorry for me acting like an a$$. honestly.


accepted... glad we got that covered



> this in where shaq delivered for them: "Bryant missed a 3-pointer but O'Neal grabbed the rebound. He made a layup as he was inexplicably fouled by Ben Wallace, then sank a huge free throw that made it a one-possession game with 35 seconds left."
> 
> "O'Neal battled late foul trouble to score 29 points, breaking Michael Jordan's record of 20 consecutive 25-point games in the Finals. Walton, who did not play in Game 1, sparked the offense with seven points and eight assists.
> 
> "It amazes me how he can give me the ball and guys that have been playing with me four, five, six years can't give me the ball," O'Neal said. "He got it about six, seven times to me."


i thought u were talking about a spurs series... the spurs mostly always had Shaq locked up... the best i ever shaq dominate was actually game 6 in 2004... and it was defensive domination, not offensive...



> i cant find kobe's career FG% against the spurs since bowen was there, but it was on sportscenter and it was about 42%. and didn't the spurs sweep the lakers in 99?


during the reg season i dont know, but as far as playoffs (which lets face it, bewteen two teams that won every title over 5 years is all that really matters) its 45% and i layed it out for you in the post earlier...

spurs did sweep the lakers then, but i said since PJ showed up to LA... thats when the team changed and Kobe came into his own... he actually didn't really become the player he is today till the playoffs that year and then in 2001...


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> i stand corrected. i thought he did it against the Mavs.


But the Lakers haven't played the Mavs in playoffs since.....1980-something?


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> kobe has a lower CAREER FG% AGAINST BOWEN. CAREER...CAREER...CAREER. stop singling out instances. im talkin about CAREER. and MJ didn't say he was the best. he was just stating the obvious...he is ONE of the best in his opinion.


again in the playoffs (which is what we have been talking about) Kobe has dominated Bowen... that covers 17 games over 3 seasons... between these two teams being the champions over a 5 year span the playoffs is what mattered...

if we were talking regular season u wouldnt hear a peep from me in this thread, but i feel Duncan underachieves in big games in the playoffs and thats what initially started this debate... meanwhile Kobe has excelled in those times...

i mean it always seemed to me like the Lakers were dominated by the spurs in the reg season, but who 3-peated?? 

anyway i gave u single dominating great performances and clutch moments mixed with the total stats Kobe put up against Bowen over all 17 playoff games which was slightly better or equal to his usual dominating self... *Kobe actually shoots better in the playoffs verse Bowen than he does against others...*


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

HallOfFamer said:


> But the Lakers haven't played the Mavs in playoffs since.....1980-something?


and with the way we played tonight... thank god


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

shobe42 said:


> accepted... glad we got that covered
> 
> 
> i thought u were talking about a spurs series... the spurs mostly always had Shaq locked up... the best i ever shaq dominate was actually game 6 in 2004... and it was defensive domination, not offensive...
> ...


yea you are right with the playoff thing (though you did leave out the other seasons...those count too). good arguement. this was the most challenging arguement about basketball anyone has ever engaged me in. i usually know stans and stuff like that off my head...i actually had to hunt on this one. props to you.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

shobe42 said:


> again in the playoffs (which is what we have been talking about) Kobe has dominated Bowen... that covers 17 games over 3 seasons... between these two teams being the champions over a 5 year span the playoffs is what mattered...
> 
> if we were talking regular season u wouldnt hear a peep from me in this thread, but i feel Duncan underachieves in big games in the playoffs and thats what initially started this debate... meanwhile Kobe has excelled in those times...
> 
> ...


now i challenge you...name instances where duncan underperforms in big games. i know many where he dominated in big games. just because you lose a couple (during the lakers' run) doesn't mean he wasn't playing well in big games. i can name one for you. game 6 2006. he friggin sucked. but the pervious year he was great...so it is offset.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> yea you are right with the playoff thing (though you did leave out the other seasons...those count too). good arguement. this was the most challenging arguement about basketball anyone has ever engaged me in. i usually know stans and stuff like that off my head...i actually had to hunt on this one. props to you.


last thing b4 i close this... the other years (i guess u mean non-Bowen years) was 99 and 01... i dont know Kobes 99 numbers but that was b4 PJ and b4 i think Kobe or the Lakers for that matter came into their own...

as for 2001... that was Kobes best statistic series... 33.2 ppg on 51.4% shooting along with 7 reb, and 7 asts!!!

well thanks... i guess we could say we have ended this on a high note.. i honestly didnt think i was gonna get thru to you, but u surprised me... 

wow... not to often u get closure on the board


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> now i challenge you...name instances where duncan underperforms in big games. i know many where he dominated in big games. just because you lose a couple (during the lakers' run) doesn't mean he wasn't playing well in big games. i can name one for you. game 6 2006. he friggin sucked. but the pervious year he was great...so it is offset.


**** i thought we were done... this will be tough for me... his numbers very likely will be okay (i dont know)... game 6 of 2003 he absolutely shut the door on the lakers... that started to change my idea about him... 

so... now this is all memory if someone can direct me too or find stats they will help... but this is what i saw and thought... i usually recall these things real well as i have shown this whole thread...

for the most part im gonna do this in comparison to Kobe cuz thats what this debates about, and it leads me to not accept Duncan over Kobe so quick...


*2001:* i really dont remember his individual performances precisely, but him and the whole team got stomped... they lost by 20 ppg, they lost by over 30 i think in one of the final games in LA... Kobe absolutely dominated (this is the 1st time PJ ever talked about MJ to Kobe comparisons... and it was hard to really take Duncan as serious as Kobe or Shaq after that series

*2002:[B/] this is the famous series where LA and SanAn split the first two and then went to SanAntonio... in Game 3 and 4 Kobe put in 11 and 12 late 4th quarter points to bring back LA from double digit defecits... Kobe hit a shot that put 3 out of reach and the game winning offensive put back over Duncan and Robinson in obviously Duncan and no other Spur was responding on the other end... now Duncans total stats for those games i couldnt tell u but he was unable to respond and takeover when needed, when Kobe did, and when i personally want my superstar to do so... in game 5 Kobe put in 10 in the 4th and the Lakers came back from another 4th quarter defecit...

2003: this series almost changed my mind on Duncan and it would have if he not failed in 2004... in game 5 Kobe actually almost did it again with Slava? strangely enough bringing the team all the way back from a near 20 pt defecit, robert horrys final shot went in and out (he didnt make a 3 the whole series)... in game 6 Duncan closed the door and played phenominal... Kobe was no where to be found... this and the Piston series are the only time i have seen that happen to him... mark one for Duncan...

2004: my favorite series!... Games 1 & 2 Parker and Duncan both were monsters... the Spurs looked unstoppable... i was damn near hopeless... i couldnt believe how much better the Spurs were... returning to LA the Lakers blew out SanAN in game 3... Duncan and Parker did nothing.... 

then the fun starts so here goes

Game 4: Kobe had 42, this is the game where Barkley sung his praise... he came off a plain in Denver and was phenominal... he made every shot down the stretch while Duncan disapeared...
Game 5 Duncan again did not do much as LA carried a double digit lead all game i believe it was Ginobli and the bench/role players that brought the team back... Kobe put LA up by 1 with 11 sec... with .4 Duncan hit the would be game winning shot, till Fisher made history... Duncan hadnt done **** all 4th quarter till that shot, but as Shaq said "one lucky shot deserves another"...
game 6 Shaq was a monster defensively and like he had since Game 2 Duncan and Parker did little to stop the Lakers momentum... Kobe put in 16 in the 4th...

so we got 2001 getting blown out of the water like no team before
2002 getting out performed and giving up leads in 3 consective 4th quarters
and 2004 playing 2 great games and then disapearing losing 4 straight

as Tex Winter said "i will never had believed we could beat this team in 4 straight games." Duncan stopped playing along with Parker....*


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

heres some lines in the games i have talked about... these are Duncans lines from those games...

*heres the 4 losses in 2004 after the spurs were up 2-0...*

Game 3 4-14 10 pts, 13 reb, 2 ast, 6 TO 
Game 4 5-13 19 pts, 10 reb, 8 ast -- they gave up a 15 pt lead, and Kobe put in 15 in the 4th of 42
Game 5 7-15 21 pts, 21 reb, 2 ast, 7 TO -- not a bad game, but the 7 TOs... quiet for "the L best" though (21 wont cut it) the board are obviously impressive
Game 6 7-18 20 pts, 11 reb, 2 ast 

so for the 4 games that they lost in a row Duncan had...

17.5 pts on 38% shooting (thats a big man too!), his reb at about 14 a game and asts at 3 a game are fine and good, but he also had over 4 TOs a game... thats as a big man...

no argument that with his team lined up to make a title run up 2-0 he completely dropped the ball on this one... i mean losing 4 straight games while putting up 17.5 on 38%??? theres no way i could call him the best player in the L after that.. or atleast at that moment...

*as for the 2002 series where i said he struggled.*.. here is a link to the page http://www.nba.com/playoffs2002/west_round2_02.html 

Duncans numbers were always good, better than Bryants, and at times phenominal... statistically i was wrong... however, in three consective 4th quarters the Spurs still gave up double digit leads to lose here's a quote from Duncan 

THIS IS GAME 3


> "I thought down the stretch he hit some big ones for them," Duncan said of Bryant. "On team defense we need to do a better job of rotating over and helping him once he gets into the air. Kobe is tough. He makes shots. We just need to do a better job defensively of getting to him."


in the 4th Kobe scored 11 of his 31 on 5 for 5... duncan shot 9 for 26 this game...


THIS IS GAME 4

from the AP


> The San Antonio Spurs need someone who can make big shots at the end of playoff games. Someone like Kobe Bryant.


ON KOBE


> "He has the uncommon will to win," Popovich said. "It's the exact same will to win as Michael Jordan."


Duncan had a veyr good game 31/11/6 but Kobe hit back to back 3s, Duncan charged, Kobe hit the game winner, and Duncan missed the last shot (Kobe had 12 in the 4th)...

on Duncan

THIS IS GAME 5

Let me start out by saying Duncan played an excellent game, but he was quiet in the 4th and missed a shot with 1:27 left...

Kobe had 10 in the 4th for another comeback here is a couple quotes...



> "The playoffs always tend to kind of show your weaknesses," Robinson said. "Whatever it is, it'll come out, it'll be glaring. For us, although we were a really good defensive team, sometimes we have a little struggle at the end (of the game). When they have a Kobe Bryant, that's kind of a nice luxury."





> Bryant drew the defense before passing to Robert Horry for a 3-pointer that sealed it with 56 seconds remaining.
> "In the fourth quarter Kobe came up big for us with some shots and obviously made a big pass to finish it," Lakers coach Phil Jackson said.


from the AP


> The Los Angeles Lakers used a familiar formula to get back to the Western Conference finals: Kobe Bryant making shots in the fourth quarter and the San Antonio Spurs missing them.


*Here is 2001* 
i remember him having a big game and it was Game 2 where he scored 40 in a loss..

as for the other 3 losses here was Duncans averages...

17.5 ppg on 41% 11 reb 4.7 asts 4 TOs

Kobe's line

31.5 ppg on 51% 7 reb 7 ast under 3 TOs

*NO COMPARISON*


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

DAYUM... can som1 rep a playa for all this damn work... i need every Kobe fan to rep my *** for all this im doin for our boy... poster of the week or sumthin? haha


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## B-Scott (Jan 17, 2006)

Smush parker= 7 points and 1 assist last game

Tonight 3 points 2 assist

id love to see duncan play with sasha and Smush as his starting guards.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

B-Scott said:


> Smush parker= 7 points and 1 assist last game
> 
> Tonight 3 points 2 assist
> 
> id love to see duncan play with sasha and Smush as his starting guards.


haha smusssssshhhhhhhhh!!!!


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## Reign (Feb 8, 2006)

Definantely Duncan.....Awesome player


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## -BasketBallBoy- (Jan 22, 2006)

Honestly this is just based on who is more popular. Spurs' fans(and pretty much every other team except for the Lakers fans) will vote for Duncan while the Lakers' fans will vote for Kobe. As a personal Kobe fan, I would vote Kobe. The only minutes that matter to me are the last 12 and I prefer Kobe over Duncan anyday in the 4th quarter. The all-time greats are either clutch players or centers. Promise in 1-2 years the Lakers will contend.


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## dominikan_balla1 (Aug 4, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Kobe can score 50 in three quarters. Duncan can's score 30 in four.
> 
> Kobe, easily.



and duncan can win


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

Nice work by Shobe in this thread. A nice shutdown at the end too.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Jameh said:


> How come when someone disagrees with you the "don't know ball"?


coz he's DUNCAN2K5 ranked #1 as the most stupid hater in Basketballboards.net


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

shobe42 said:


> DAYUM... can som1 rep a playa for all this damn work... i need every Kobe fan to rep my *** for all this im doin for our boy... poster of the week or sumthin? haha


done


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## CHKNWANG321 (Sep 3, 2005)

I took kobe, only because he has the ability to make a ****ty team win games. Duncan is a great player, but i dont think he could get the lakers to win :biggrin:


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## Cloud786 (Mar 18, 2005)

Kobe was able to do what he did in the playoffs because he had SHAQ. Okay, lemme say that again. HE HAD SHAQ ON HIS SIDE.

Put Duncan and Shaq on the same team against Kobe and that laker team. Would Kobe's team even sniff a lead?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Cloud786 said:


> Kobe was able to do what he did in the playoffs because he had SHAQ. Okay, lemme say that again. HE HAD SHAQ ON HIS SIDE.


Moot point? Kobe hasn't played in the playoffs since then. He has however played in the regular season since then and he's averaging 10 more points per game than the last time he played with Shaq. That's an improvement. :yes:

and btw, Shaq's numbers since playing with Kobe are down.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

IV said:


> Moot point? Kobe hasn't played in the playoffs since then. He has however played in the regular season since then and he's averaging 10 more points per game than the last time he played with Shaq. That's an improvement. :yes:
> 
> and btw, Shaq's numbers since playing with Kobe are down.


yea but Kobe had Shaq...

haha, i havent heard that argument in a while... i thought it was retired to the Haters Hall of Fame under "what to say when Kobe kills your favorite team."


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## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

Kobe


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

I'd take Duncan as the better player. Certainly not by a wide margin. VERY CLOSE indeed. But duncan2k5, you got torched on this thread.  Shobe, I'm very impressed! :laugh:


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

Bartholomew Hunt said:


> I'd take Duncan as the better player. Certainly not by a wide margin. VERY CLOSE indeed. But duncan2k5, you got torched on this thread.  Shobe, I'm very impressed! :laugh:


thank u sir...


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

yea he torched me with the fact hat i was wrong in saying that duncan didnt play in the lakers series...but thats all. but then he started comparing duncan's stats to kobe's...and though it was better at times, its not fair because duncan is a bigman and would usually get better stats. i was changing the topic because u said duncan doesn't show up in big games. i'm not just talking about the lakers series...thats where he was mistaken. im talking about in his career, because thats what you were talking about when u said he doesn't show up in big games. he delivered a hole damn lot. everyone knows he is horrible at shooting ft, but he is usually money in the 4th. ive seen TONS of games where he gets the win with under a minute left on ft by making all. only in the pistons series for that one game and that last ft against the suns in 2003 he choked on. other than that any spur fan would tell you he is clutch in the 4th from the line. as for jumpers. he has made many game winners and clutch jumpers in his career...trust me i know. two years ago i had a clip of some of them...and in the last two years he has hit couple more. not to forget the two ft with like 1 second left on the clock against the clippers to force overtime and win (though that wasn't a big game). i think duncan's clutch is overlooked because he doesn't get the publicity and ppl actually like picking on him because he is so unassuming. if kobe hits a gamewinner its all over the boards and on TV with NBA analysts talking about how clutch he is. if duncan does it, it shows up on sportscenter for one play...and no one talks about it. thats life anyway. we cant all get the spotlight. anyway since all the laker fans say u owned me, i guess you do. even though i dont see how. we both were talking 2 different things. u were talking about kobe vs bowen in the playoffs...i was talking about career (playoffs included). bowen makes him shoot a lower %. but whatever. i lose


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

yea i couldnt fairly speak on Duncan's playoff performance outside of the Lakers... but i think i gave more than enough evidence on the page b4 about his failures in big games and late games against LA... other than that and the infamous Detroit game i couldnt really tell u... maybe ur right, maybe he only chokes verse the Lakers...


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> yea he torched me with the fact hat i was wrong in saying that duncan didnt play in the lakers series...but thats all. but then he started comparing duncan's stats to kobe's...and though it was better at times, its not fair because duncan is a bigman and would usually get better stats. i was changing the topic because u said duncan doesn't show up in big games. i'm not just talking about the lakers series...thats where he was mistaken. im talking about in his career, because thats what you were talking about when u said he doesn't show up in big games. he delivered a hole damn lot. everyone knows he is horrible at shooting ft, but he is usually money in the 4th. ive seen TONS of games where he gets the win with under a minute left on ft by making all. only in the pistons series for that one game and that last ft against the suns in 2003 he choked on. other than that any spur fan would tell you he is clutch in the 4th from the line. as for jumpers. he has made many game winners and clutch jumpers in his career...trust me i know. two years ago i had a clip of some of them...and in the last two years he has hit couple more. not to forget the two ft with like 1 second left on the clock against the clippers to force overtime and win (though that wasn't a big game). i think duncan's clutch is overlooked because he doesn't get the publicity and ppl actually like picking on him because he is so unassuming. if kobe hits a gamewinner its all over the boards and on TV with NBA analysts talking about how clutch he is. if duncan does it, it shows up on sportscenter for one play...and no one talks about it. thats life anyway. we cant all get the spotlight. anyway since all the laker fans say u owned me, i guess you do. even though i dont see how. we both were talking 2 different things. u were talking about kobe vs bowen in the playoffs...i was talking about career (playoffs included). bowen makes him shoot a lower %. but whatever. i lose


 I think Kobe could translate this mess before Duncan. Well, both speak foreign languages right?


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