# Merged: Rasheed in the playoffs



## KingSpeed

*Another Clutch 4th Qtr for Sheed in the playoffs.*

He did it for us. Now he's doing it for the Pistons. 8 huge points for the Pistons in the 4th tonight.


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## yangsta

It seems as though we still have more posts about sheed than anyone in our current roster. Maybe it was a bad trade?


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## FeloniusThunk

He also guarded Kenyon Martin one on one while drawing double teams on the other end. A nice game, and I hope to see the Jermaine vs. Rasheed show soon.

Go (ex-)Blazers!


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## Blazerfan024

SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDD !!!


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## KingSpeed

Can we sign Sheed this summer as a free agent???


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## Samuel

Even Damon says the locker room is remarkably better now.


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## gambitnut

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Can we sign Sheed this summer as a free agent???


Only for the MLE. I suspect some team will offer much more and our front office would be too worried about a revolt by the fans to even make the offer.


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## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>Samuel</b>!
> Even Damon says the locker room is remarkably better now.


Well, considering it's empty as the Blazers are on an earlier-than-normal summer vacation, I don't know how much that really matters :devil: 

Go Sheed!

Ed O.


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## cimalee

u know im rooting for my boy sheed wallace


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## CatchNRelease

*Geez, Guys...*

...if you have to keep having these Sheed-fests, couldn't ya at least put an 'OT' on the thread?

Go Blazers


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## yangsta

Damn.. Maurice Lucas is awesome.


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## Brian.

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Can we sign Sheed this summer as a free agent???


CTC 

All kidding aside I am sure he will stay out east if not Detroit probably NY.


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## KingSpeed

our locker room is empty


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## trifecta

For most fans, the most important stat is who's team won.


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## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>trifecta</b>!
> For most fans, the most important stat is who's team won.


Pistons are now 27-7 since acquiring Wallace, and a few of those losses he barely played for various reasons (resting injuries and the initial paperwork snafu). I love their D, and think they'll give the Spurs a good run for the title.

STOMP


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## mackthedj

*Dead horse thread*

Isn't it funny how well Rasheed Wallace seems to be doing in Detroit now that he's not asked to be the leader, and just be a part of the team? It seems like that's what he wanted to do here in Portland too.

Just an observation


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## hasoos

*Our Locker room would still be empty*

Despite what some people say on this board about the Sheed trade being a bad trade, that is merely conjecture. The Blazers were not going to the playoffs when Sheed was here, and they didn't make it without him. Sure they had won quite a few games right before he was traded, but I would remind you that Portland actually won a hell of a lot of games to get back into the playoff race in the second half of the season, and still fell short. They won far more then I thought they would. Any thought that with Sheed here they would be in the playoffs, is merely an opinion. 

You have to remember this team is building for the future, and the future would not have been good if:

1) Sheed would have left as a free agent and we received nothing in return. You never want to be the GM who let a player go for nothing. Remember Danny Ainge and when he left to Phoenix? That sure was a lovely move when our management did that wonderful move to not make him a counter offer.

2) From what was rumored, Sheed was definitly not going to return here. In fact it is rumored from a few sources to remain unamed that Sheed will not return to Detroit if they do not win a championship this year. He wants to head home to Philly or nearby NY. From what was said, the Blazers made him an offer and he laughed in Nash's face. So what would you do if a star player on your team was made what you consider was a legitimate offer and he laughed in your face? 

That being said, what the hell do you people who complain about Sheed being traded want Nash to do? What would you have done in his place? Would you have payed an underachieving career player that a lot of your city hates entirely too much money to stay? I would like to hear what your solution is.


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## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>hasoos</b>!
> Despite what some people say on this board about the Sheed trade being a bad trade, that is merely conjecture. The Blazers were not going to the playoffs when Sheed was here, and they didn't make it without him.
> 
> Remember Danny Ainge and when he left to Phoenix? That sure was a lovely move when our management did that wonderful move to not make him a counter offer.
> 
> From what was said, the Blazers made him an offer and he laughed in Nash's face. So what would you do if a star player on your team was made what you consider was a legitimate offer and he laughed in your face?


I guess it depends what rumors you choose to believe. Nash has specifically denied that an offer was made to Wallace but you're still bringing it up with the added smack that Wallace "laughed in his face." 

Your playoff speculations on the team not making it with or without... Post Miles trade the Blazers won 8 of 10 (80%) with Wallace at 5... since acquiring Wallace the Pistons have gone 27-7 (80%). Of course there is no guarantee Portland could have kept up their winning clip had they retained Sheed, but if they had they would have made the playoffs easily. I'm pretty darn certain that had the team kept winning, PR concerns of the upset fan contingent would have been been overrun by cheers from those who like seeing the Blazers win. IMO that Blazer club (with Sheed at 5) could have competed with any of the Western elite, and would have made the playoffs much more interesting. It's also intersting to note that on Fox's Best Damn last night Zach claimed that they would have made the playoffs had the trade not happened.

I felt the trade hurt the team this past season. They had a real slump adjusting/regrouping from the trade, and while their D remained about the same, their offensive attack was never as good with Theo in at the 5 rather then with Sheed and occationally Person bombing some 3s. SAR and Dickau did next to nothing for them.

Leaving as a FA without compensation was a possibility, but not likely. As it's been pointed out countless times before, if he would have been dead set on leaving town, the best way for him to go to a team of his liking and get paid would have been a S&T. Not many teams have the space to sign him outright, and I don't see any player taking a MLE if there are more dollars available. I'd imaging that there would have been no shortage of offers for Nash to choose between. What would have worked in Nash's favor is that Wallace could have been resigned for far less then 17 mil per year. There are a lot more feasable possibilities that teams could have swung for Wallace at roughly half that rate.

But would letting him walk have been such a bad thing? Such a course would have commited the team to the plan of getting under the cap to be FA players for the 2005 crop. Sure they would have had worse prospects of winning next season, but I don't see the immediate future as all that bright choosing the course that Nash did. Certainly they are well outside the championship discussion. Further roster moves need to be made to sort out Portland's unbalanced mess. If Nash can turn Zach into Tmac, or SAR into Allen, he'll be exec of the year IMO, but as it stands right now the pieces don't fit and big questions loom. 

What to do about the center situation? Theo was healthy and better then most everyone expected... but his contract is up after next year. Does Nash commit to him dispite his health concerns and advancing age? Even if he does resign him, they are still one short on their big man rotation. In my wildest hopes I'd love Nedzad to be that guy in a couple of years, but thats a looooong shot. Nash has a lot of expiring deals to move (if he chooses) to address big man and the backcourt slots into the future, but I don't see the Wallace move as doing that. 

btw... 33 y/old Ainge going to Phoenix was made much more palatable by the signing of 26 y/old Rod Strickland as a UFA a couple days later. I actually felt Portland's management upgraded their backcourt, and was glad they didn't reup with Ainge who IMO was fading.

STOMP


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## mediocre man

Nathan, by posting a thread named this it would mean that Rasheed Wallace actually made a shot when it counted for us in the fourth quarter. You might want to think about renaming it something like Sheed finally scores in the fourth quarter when it matters.


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## Samuel

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> our locker room is empty


you mentioned resigning him, i was merely responding.


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## Public Defender

FWIW, I'm inclined to believe the rumors that had Wallace considering a seven-figure salary to stay in Portland... and I agree that Wallace turned it down. Doesn't anyone remember the chatter about Wallace first "rejecting an offer" then "considering an offer"...? General Managers are notorious liars and/or loose with facts, so they can manipulate the value of their players and franchises. 
My belief is that Wallace wanted a no-trade clause attached to his new contract (to avoid going someplace like Atlanta with a long-term, rather than an expiring, contract). I believe Sheed when he says he wanted to stay in Portland because his kids and wife liked it... but I also think he wanted to get every dollar he could and every guarantee he could, considering the track record of his teammates and best friends getting shipped out (Bonzi and McInnis this past year, especially, by the "new regime"). 

In any case, I wish the best for Sheed, but would have really liked to have made the playoffs ourselves as a vote of confidence in some of the talented, young players we've got (namely D-Miles and Z-Bo) and our new arrivals (Theo and SAR).


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## KingSpeed

mediocre man- 

Sheed hit the game winning shot in Game 5 of the playoffs last year.

He also scored a GAME HIGH 12 points in the 4th qtr of Game 7.

He has had other huge 4th qtrs in the playoffs. Those are just two.

Learn.


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## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Public Defender</b>!
> FWIW, I'm inclined to believe the rumors that had Wallace considering a seven-figure salary to stay in Portland... and I agree that Wallace turned it down. Doesn't anyone remember the chatter about Wallace first "rejecting an offer" then "considering an offer"...? General Managers are notorious liars and/or loose with facts, so they can manipulate the value of their players and franchises.


If GMs are notorious liars who play fast and loose with the facts, what are sports writers? 

If a midseason offer was made by Nash to Wallace's agent (which would not be the norm for NBA business practices), who exactly would benefit by leaking info to the press? I don't see how it would benefit either party's position to have done so... I do see how a hot rumor regarding Sheed could get legs and make it's way to the *O*, especially considering their obvious agenda (well obvious to me anyway) in all things Sheed related. What negative rumor regarding Sheed hasn't that rag fanned the flames on?

While it's possible that his agent rejected an offer, it's also possible that the *O* just wanted some more bleep to hit the fan. I don't know which scenerio is true, but given history and this particular situation, I'd guess the latter.

STOMP


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## jackiejackal

ah..the sweetness of not having to see his mug fill the screen anymore from Portland.
I am estatic he is finally gone.
Who cares what he doing in Detroit ??
They are not going to win anything this year..

Spurs !


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## jackiejackal

"LEARN"
We should all agree with you ??
Is that what you mean by learning??


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## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> I am estatic he is finally gone.


good for you



> Who cares what he doing in Detroit ??


I think it's pretty obvious that some Portland fans do JJ. Is it OK with you that many Blazer fans do not share your negative views on Wallace and want to discuss how a former great of the team is doing in the playoffs on a basketball chatsite... or is it only OK to talk up the Spurs here?

STOMP


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## jackiejackal

geesh Stomp..
doesn't that go both ways??????

How much Sheed can a person stand?


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## MercyKersey

Sheed is the man! Go sheed !!!:yes:


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## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> How much Sheed can a person stand?


feel free to shield/avert your eyes, or go on to the next thread... as a big Bball fan with a huge bullseye with what I appreciate within the game, it takes a whole lot more then Sheed's immature moments to turn me off to the better points of his game, expecially since I've been rooting for him for years.

btw... Go Spurs!

STOMP


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## Nightfly

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> mediocre man-
> 
> Sheed hit the game winning shot in Game 5 of the playoffs last year.


It was the Sabonis tip that iced the game, Not Wallace's 3.

Wallace's 3 was a damn lucky shot if you ask me. He missed the first one. He was lucky the ball bounced back to him.




> He also scored a GAME HIGH 12 points in the 4th qtr of Game 7.


Did the Blazers win game 7?




> He has had other huge 4th qtrs in the playoffs. Those are just two.


He's also had plenty of games where he was absolutely no where he needed to be during the 4th (floating around the perimeter, taking 3s, etc...)

I'm not saying that Wallace never did anything good for Portland, but you make it sound like he was the clutchiest guy the Blazers ever had. That title belongs to Terry Porter.



> Learn.


Good idea.


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## TP3

About 5 Blazer fans miss/like Rasheed and they all post on this board. Honestly, I live here and don't know one person who wishes his sorry butt was still here. 

Rasheed is the Anti-Clutch player. You have to want the ball to be clutch, dude.

Give us a break.


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## Nightfly

> Originally posted by <b>TP3</b>!
> About 5 Blazer fans miss/like Rasheed and they all post on this board. Honestly, I live here and don't know one person who wishes his sorry butt was still here.


I know people that liked Rasheed, but none of them are sad that he is gone like some posters here.

I, for one, am very happy with the trade.



> Rasheed is the Anti-Clutch player. You have to want the ball to be clutch, dude.
> 
> Give us a break.


I agree, and I also wish Speed would stop with these threads... There was a time when it was kind of funny, but now...


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## hasoos

*Well he sure was clutch tonight*

Now I am going to point out to you how pointless it is to point out a single good game here and there in order to make a point. 

Rasheed sure was clutch tonight! 0 pts and 1 rebound in the 4th quarter. 

I think your post talking about how well Rasheed did in the last game, and my post, talking about how poorly Rasheed did in the 4th quarter (and whole game as a matter of fact), pretty much sums up Rasheeds career. Wows you one game, leaves you wondering "Wheres the beef" the next. ??? :sigh:


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## BLAZER PROPHET

TP3- Where I work, about 80% of the people wish Rasheed were still here.

I'm maybe too late on this thread, but.....

It was a good trade. The Portland media was too imature and unprofessional for Wallace, as he was for them. Ultimately we ended up with 2 quality players. I wish all the best for Rasheed.


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## mook

I liked Sheed when he was here, but for me it was a win-win trade. 

Portland got a ton of value out of it that we should be able to use to fetch some help in the back court this summer, plus Theo Ratliff. I win because my team is taking an honest effort at rebuilding, and it has a great future ahead. 

Detroit got a key piece that might just get them in the finals, and possibly a championship. I win again because I now have a team to cheer for in the playoffs. 

What's not to like about that deal?


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## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>TP3</b>!
> About 5 Blazer fans miss/like Rasheed and they all post on this board.


there are more then 5 on this thread... whats your theory on why attendance dropped post Wallace trade?



> Give us a break.


that would be nice

STOMP


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## Ed O

*Re: Well he sure was clutch tonight*



> Originally posted by <b>hasoos</b>!
> Now I am going to point out to you how pointless it is to point out a single good game here and there in order to make a point.


As much as a fan of 'Sheed as I am, this is a good point and one that's pretty obvious but too often ignored in the media and on this board: one game is just one game. 

Rasheed was pretty crappy yesterday, and he deserves to catch some flak for it. Similarly, when he played well in game 2 he deserved some credit. But he's not an MVP player and he's not a stiff... somewhere in between.

That was one UGLY game yesterday, though.

Ed O.


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## mediocre man

*Another pathetic perfomance by Sheed in the playoffs.*

Since there seems to be some of you that just don't get that it was a good thing to trade Sheed, and start threads proclaiming his "briliance' in the fourth quarter I thought I'd start one of my own. Sheed in his ever so wonderful dominant way had 2 points in the fourth quarter last night. 2 points. 1 for 2 on a slam dunk and a missed 30 foot jumper. That's the Sheed I know and love. Maybe it's not me that needs to learn, maybe it's some of you. 






I guess if you disagree with someone with power in this room you don't get your own thread, instead you get burried in the middle of a thread that person agrees with. Sad, very sad.


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## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> 
> 
> there are more then 5 on this thread... whats your theory on why attendance dropped post Wallace trade?
> 
> STOMP


what about the attendance drop *before* he was traded (compared to the previous season) which was a higher % than after?


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## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> what about the attendance drop *before* he was traded (compared to the previous season) which was a higher % than after?


??? He was a big part of the team that sold out the RG for years too (even though his behavior was far worse back then then in recent years), but I don't think he was the lone trackable reason it dropped this year. I thought a much bigger factor was Portland losing and not replacing two key members of their rotation (PIP, Sabas), which dropped them out of the championship discussion completely. Pretty much that was the overwhelming concensus on this board last offseason (them no longer being contenders). Mediocre teams usually have problems jazzing up the fanbase so I wasn't surprised to see the drop. While some fans probably cancelled out of disgust over the behavior of the players, I'd guess that more were turned off by Damon's ridiculous 3rd pot bust in Phoenix, then because of Sheed recieving a petty moving violation for swerving outside his lane.

On the other hand, when Wallace was traded with Wesley, he was the main thing that changed on the roster, so his departure can be directly linked to the attendance fluxuation. When the trade went down some on this board claimed that just the opposite would happen, and the place would be packed. It seems pretty obvious to me that a whole lot more then 5 Blazer fans were in Sheed's corner so to speak, and liked having him on the team at least from a competitive standpoint. I'm not his biggest fan, but I am big on the Blazers being a relevant team. 

I'm not sure why on a basketball chatsight following a recently traded player who's still in the playoffs is worthy of such direct spite from so many. If a player or subject being discussed isn't for me, I don't lash out at the poster who's for them/it (I'm speaking in general and not accusing you of this Hap). 

STOMP


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## RipCity9

Loved Larry Brown and his diatribe about how victimized Sheed is by the referees. Maybe if Brown would stop whining after every call he'd set a better example and the refs might give him a break. Here's to another Sheed disappearing act in game 4!


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## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> Rasheed was pretty crappy yesterday, and he deserves to catch some flak for it. Similarly, when he played well in game 2 he deserved some credit. But he's not an MVP player and he's not a stiff... somewhere in between.
> 
> That was one UGLY game yesterday, though.


Seems Wallace agrees with you...“I admit I had a bad game,” Wallace said. “I have to keep playing and not let one bad game get me down."

STOMP


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## CatchNRelease

*Game 4*

6 points on 1/5 shooting, 6 rebounds.

Go Blazers


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## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> 
> 
> ??? He was a big part of the team that sold out the RG for years too (even though his behavior was far worse back then then in recent years), but I don't think he was the lone trackable reason it dropped this year.


sorry for the late response, I totally missed this thread, and migraines have made the better of me the last 2 days.

anyway, I'd say that the team winning is what brought the fans in, not Rasheed.


> I thought a much bigger factor was Portland losing and not replacing two key members of their rotation (PIP, Sabas), which dropped them out of the championship discussion completely. Pretty much that was the overwhelming concensus on this board last offseason (them no longer being contenders). Mediocre teams usually have problems jazzing up the fanbase so I wasn't surprised to see the drop. While some fans probably cancelled out of disgust over the behavior of the players, I'd guess that more were turned off by Damon's ridiculous 3rd pot bust in Phoenix, then because of Sheed recieving a petty moving violation for swerving outside his lane.


I'd like to think it's known I've said (in the past) that the fans always pick scapegoats. Rasheed was last years. Bonzi was too, but because he was traded so quick it didn't have as much of an affect on the team.

Some of the reason the attendance went down was probably due to the fact the trade basically was like a bad breakup. You kinda stay away for a while. Some fans, who actually are true to the team no matter who they trade, stayed. Some frindge fans (generally young men who aren't paying the blazers bills) left, and some fans just are jaded enough they'll only show up when the team is winning.



> On the other hand, when Wallace was traded with Wesley, he was the main thing that changed on the roster, so his departure can be directly linked to the attendance fluxuation. When the trade went down some on this board claimed that just the opposite would happen, and the place would be packed. It seems pretty obvious to me that a whole lot more then 5 Blazer fans were in Sheed's corner so to speak, and liked having him on the team at least from a competitive standpoint. I'm not his biggest fan, but I am big on the Blazers being a relevant team.


I believe thats a stretch (not you being the biggest fan, the "direct" link to the attendance flux). When the trade happened, the team was basically out of the playoff hunt, despite their winning streak before the trade. To some fans, thats enough to not care about the team. 

To some, even fighting for 8th place wasn't worth going to games, especially how the team kept giving away games they shouldn't have (on the road at home). Also to some, the price of the tickets wasn't worth spending.

In the games I went to that had low attendance, it was almost always the upper bowl that had lots of fans dressed as empty seats. Both pre and post trade.

I dont know why we should be arguing over whether or not the fans left because of rasheed. The exodus of fans happened quick, but the return won't be. It takes time. If the attendance drops continually, and the only sold out game we have next year is against Detroit (assuming Rasheed re-signs) then maybe this argument can be cemented. 



> I'm not sure why on a basketball chatsight following a recently traded player who's still in the playoffs is worthy of such direct spite from so many. If a player or subject being discussed isn't for me, I don't lash out at the poster who's for them/it (I'm speaking in general and not accusing you of this Hap).


I knew that you weren't talking about me. I actually still like him, but I'm glad he's gone. For him and the team. I don't really understand why any player, good or bad, can get people so riled up. 

Oh sure, we'll have discussions on here about players that get heated (see the new Bonzi Vs Stackhouse debate, Jackson vs Nont Jackson) but I'd like to think we're all chums here.


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## B_&_B

Jim Rome is "talking smack" about Rasheed's playoff performance right now... its pretty damn funny!!!


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## Kmurph

As Larry Brown has said..."Sheed needs to quit thinking he is a 5'11 perimeter player and start remembering he is a 6'11 post player"

That about sums up Sheed....I watched that game and laughed the whole way....Wow Sheed underperformed? Who would have guessed that? Good one night...dissapears the next...hmm...tat sounds familiar...what a waste of talent.


BTW, nice performance by Darko in garbage time...WOW he looked HORRIBLE. Yeah, he will be an All-Star all right :laugh:


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## jackiejackal

"As Larry Brown has said..."Sheed needs to quit thinking he is a 5'11 perimeter player and start remembering he is a 6'11 post player"


Boy if that doesn't just sum him up.


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## CatchNRelease

*This Must Be...*

...some of that glowing praise from his coaches that I've been hearing about.

Go Blazers


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## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> As Larry Brown has said..."Sheed needs to quit thinking he is a 5'11 perimeter player and start remembering he is a 6'11 post player"


Can you provide a source for that? I didn't see him say anything like that after the most recent game, and if he said it earlier I don't see why bringing it up now has any relevance.



> BTW, nice performance by Darko in garbage time...WOW he looked HORRIBLE. Yeah, he will be an All-Star all right :laugh:


Darko's the youngest player in the NBA. That he made the playoff roster at all is pretty remarkable.

That you would even remark on 2 minutes he played in a game fascinates me.

Ed O.


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## Kmurph

Ed - 

Darko has looked lost and completely overwhelmed in almost ALL of the garbage time he has gotten this season. So this wasn't an anomaly. People keep defending him saying he is 18, so what? Lebron is 18, Carmelo is 18, Bosh is 19. All of these guys had SUBSTANTIAL impacts in the NBA this year. I don't buy the "bring him along slow" garbage either...the bottom line is Darko...like our own Travis Outlaw is not GOOD enough to be out on the floor. That is more acceptable if you are the 23rd pick than if you are the SECOND pick in the draft. Especially when you consider the players drafted directly after him. 

He may end up being a decent player, but an All-Star?  He has a LONG LONG way to go. I don't see how he is going to be judged a better player than LeBron, Carmelo or Wade, let alone Bosh or heck even Hinrich. 



> Can you provide a source for that? I didn't see him say anything like that after the most recent game, and if he said it earlier I don't see why bringing it up now has any relevance.


:sigh: Here you go Ed. 



> Coach Larry Brown said of Wallace's three-point misses: "I told him he might as well be 5-9 like me, but he'll respond. I think it's our job to try to help him figure that out. I don't care if he takes a shot. Be in the game as far as rebounding and defending and let the other stuff come to you."





> "The referees didn't lose the game," coach Larry Brown said of the Pistons' loss to the Nets. "That was our fault. . . . The problem that we had was that we let it affect us, and they didn't. When we retaliated, we did some silly stuff. We let it affect the way that we played. You can't get upset and take a bad shot or take a silly foul, or you're going to find yourself on the bench. That message was intended for Rasheed Wallace.


Sounds familiar......

http://www.freep.com/sports/pistons/pcorn11_20040511.htm


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## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> 
> Darko has looked lost and completely overwhelmed in almost ALL of the garbage time he has gotten this season. So this wasn't an anomaly. People keep defending him saying he is 18, so what? Lebron is 18, Carmelo is 18, Bosh is 19.


Actually, you're wrong. Lebron is 19, and Carmelo's almost 20 (turns 20 in 16 days;more than a full year older than Darko). 

It's still laughable to me that you'd be willing to judge a player based on 2 minutes of a blowout loss...



> All of these guys had SUBSTANTIAL impacts in the NBA this year.


For teams that were mediocre to bad. All three of them did fine jobs, no question, but they were all pretty much handed starting jobs because their team didn't have anything in front of them.

Darko, on the other hand, had Wallace/Okur/Campbell and even Rebraca in front of him. Couple that with Brown, who generally doesn't like playing rookies, and his youth and it's not surprising that he's not playing much.



> I don't buy the "bring him along slow" garbage either...the bottom line is Darko...like our own Travis Outlaw is not GOOD enough to be out on the floor.


Whether you buy it or not, it's probably the truth. Unlike Outlaw, who was universally accepted to be years away from helping an NBA team, Darko was considered to be a more advanced player, and he's reportedly doing amazing things in practice (just like Jermaine used to for Portland).



> He may end up being a decent player, but an All-Star?  He has a LONG LONG way to go. I don't see how he is going to be judged a better player than LeBron, Carmelo or Wade, let alone Bosh or heck even Hinrich.


How can you fail to see that possibility, even if you don't think it's likely? Jemaine O'Neal was in almost the exact same position as Darko--youngest player in the NBA on a good team with lots of frount court depth--and he emerged to be better than anyone was giving him credit for.

Darko's a better prospect than O'Neal was, and if he doesn't turn out to be at least as good of a player it will be a shocking development.



> http://www.freep.com/sports/pistons/pcorn11_20040511.htm


Those aren't QUITE the same in terms of content or tone as the "quote" you posted before. The former quote is seems more focused on Sheed's 5 FG attempts, rather than his outside shooting, and the latter is aimed at the reds, not at Rasheed, because Larry Brown thinks that Rasheed was specifically targeted... and even the NY press was admitting that the two calls that sent Rasheed to the bench in game 4 were questionable.

Thanks for the link, but I just don't see where he's complaining about Rasheed.

Ed O.


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## Kmurph

Darko -



> It's still laughable to me that you'd be willing to judge a player based on 2 minutes of a blowout loss...


Like I said before, I have seen him play SEVERAL times in games, and he hasn't looked remotely good in any of them. 



> How can you fail to see that possibility, even if you don't think it's likely?


I don't "fail" to see that possibility, I just find it unlikely. As I stated, he has a LONG LONG way to go to come anywhere near Jermaine O'Neal's level. Furthermore, I find it HIGHLY unlikely he will ever justify DET picking him #2 OVER Carmelo Anthony & Dwayne Wade specifically, and even Chris Bosh. Time will tell...but I Wouldn't hold my breath.

Sheed - 





> Those aren't QUITE the same in terms of content or tone as the "quote" you posted before. The former quote is seems more focused on Sheed's 5 FG attempts, rather than his outside shooting, and the latter is aimed at the reds, not at Rasheed, because Larry Brown thinks that Rasheed was specifically targeted... and even the NY press was admitting that the two calls that sent Rasheed to the bench in game 4 were questionable


What? Um...What does it mean then when Larry Brown tells Sheed he might as well be 5'9 like him? That he should take more shots? How did you reach that conclusion? 

What does it mean when Larry Brown says, "Be in the game as far as rebounding and defending" Hmm...might as well be 5'9, not defending or rebounding......Yeah I see it...Take more shots! Sure, it has nothing to do with Sheed (all 6'11 of him) not rebounding or defending or shooting from the pereimeter instead of posting up down low  yeah....right.

As for the "refs" :laugh: Haven't we been here before with Sheed? And the article SPECIFICALLY mentions Rasheed as the intended target. I wonder why.....Maybe they are "haters" like the POR media is too.

Ed, are you going to defend Sheed to the bitter end? Oh..wait, I already know the answer to that one....:yes:


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> 
> Like I said before, I have seen him play SEVERAL times in games, and he hasn't looked remotely good in any of them.


Why did you even comment on his 2 minute stint in the most recent game then?



> I don't "fail" to see that possibility, I just find it unlikely. As I stated, he has a LONG LONG way to go to come anywhere near Jermaine O'Neal's level. Furthermore, I find it HIGHLY unlikely he will ever justify DET picking him #2 OVER Carmelo Anthony & Dwayne Wade specifically, and even Chris Bosh. Time will tell...but I Wouldn't hold my breath.


So you didn't say this?


> I don't see how he is going to be judged a better player than LeBron, Carmelo or Wade, let alone Bosh or heck even Hinrich.


That seems like you fail to see the possibility to me.



> What? Um...What does it mean then when Larry Brown tells Sheed he might as well be 5'9 like him? That he should take more shots? How did you reach that conclusion?


I didn't say he thought he should take more shots. I think that he said that it doesn't matter if he shoots at all.

I really don't know what Brown was talking about in terms of height... Rasheed was limping around with a bad foot but still got 6 rebounds and 4 free throw attempts in 25 minutes.

I am pretty sure, though, that he did *NOT* mean what you "quoted" him as saying, which was

"Sheed needs to quit thinking he is a 5'11 perimeter player and start remembering he is a 6'11 post player"




> What does it mean when Larry Brown says, "Be in the game as far as rebounding and defending" Hmm...might as well be 5'9, not defending or rebounding......Yeah I see it...Take more shots! Sure, it has nothing to do with Sheed (all 6'11 of him) not rebounding or defending or shooting from the pereimeter instead of posting up down low  yeah....right.


I don't know why you bothered arguing against something I didn't say. Maybe it's easier for you?



> As for the "refs" :laugh: Haven't we been here before with Sheed? And the article SPECIFICALLY mentions Rasheed as the intended target. I wonder why.....Maybe they are "haters" like the POR media is too.


Um... once again, I don't know who you're arguing against. *I'm* not saying that the calls were bad. Rasheed isn't saying it (publically). Larry Brown said it, and columnists have said it.



> Ed, are you going to defend Sheed to the bitter end? Oh..wait, I already know the answer to that one....:yes:


The bitter end of what? Until I die? Or he does? Or people stop attributing quotes to his coach that his coach did say (allowing, naturally, Sheed haters to nod knowledgably and say, "Ah, another expert opinion on Rasheed's failings")?

I don't understand what you're asking.

Ed O.


----------



## The Professional Fan

Ed,

I'm just curious here, and not trying to bait you whatsoever. But what drives you to defend Sheed like you do? I know you “like him” but what is it that you like about him? Why do you feel the need to defend him at every turn? To me, some of his deficiencies as a player are indefensible - (i.e. reluctance to step up in the clutch, aversion to training in the off season, rumored to be a lockerroom distraction, anger issues, taking nights off) - but you find a way to defend him. Why? I think every single one of us agrees that he's a total talent, but aside from that, what has he delivered? 

I just don't get it.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>The Professional Fan</b>!
> 
> I'm just curious here, and not trying to bait you whatsoever. But what drives you to defend Sheed like you do?


I don't defend him specifically. I defend almost any player against assertions that I think are glaringly inaccurate... whether it's a totally negative statement about a player or a total positive one.

I don't think Bonzi's the anti-Christ and I don't think DA is the second coming, and when people put out there things that seem to preclude anything but possibilities like those, I attempt to explain why almost every player is somewhere in the middle.

In the present case, it appears that a quote was fabricated to support a preconceived position. Whether it's about Rasheed or Travis Outlaw or Mark Madsen, if I thought the quote was fake and/or a stretch of a paraphrase, I'd say something.



> I know you “like him” but what is it that you like about him? Why do you feel the need to defend him at every turn?


Again, I don't defend him at EVERY turn. I don't think people would say that I defend Darko at every turn, either, but I'm arguing about him with KMurph just as much as Rasheed in this thread.

As far as what I like about him: he was the best player on the Blazers for the better part of a decade. Those Blazers teams brought us to two WC finals and playoff appearances every year. Rasheed is, along with Paul Allen and Bob Whitsitt, more responsible for the almost constant entertainment I received from the Blazers than any other person.

I also like his game... that he's focused on team first, rather than on worrying about stats. And that he works hard on defense consistently. And that he has been willing to slide around the front line, and even come off the bench, if it would help the team.



> To me, some of his deficiencies as a player are indefensible - (i.e. reluctance to step up in the clutch, aversion to training in the off season, rumored to be a lockerroom distraction, anger issues, taking nights off) - but you find a way to defend him. Why?


The things you list are all things I either don't care about or don't believe are even facts.

In SPITE of not training hard in the offseason (other than, of course, improving his perimeter game) he was still our best player for all of those years. I'm simply happy with the player he is, and I don't hold how good I think he MIGHT be against him when I'm judging him.

The stuff about him being a locker room distraction is just hearsay, and for every assertion made on this board about him being a bad teammate there's a quote from someone who's actually played with or coached him who says he's a great teammate.

On his unwillingness to step up in clutch situations: I don't agree that's true. He's hit more big shots than any other Blazer in the last decade, and I would bet that his rate of success is higher than Damon and Sabonis, each of whom have made a lot of game-winners but have had a lot of failures, too.



> I think every single one of us agrees that he's a total talent, but aside from that, what has he delivered?


He's delivered plenty.

Ed O.


----------



## RipCity9

> I also like his game... that he's focused on team first,


:laugh: 

He's focused on one thing - making sure someone's around to CTC.

:laugh:


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>RipCity9</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> 
> He's focused on one thing - making sure someone's around to CTC.
> 
> :laugh:


Remember when you were popping off about Wallace not producing anything impressive after the 1st half of the 1st game of the Bucks series? Wallace had a big 2nd half, and then you seemed to disappear from any and all Wallace conversations until the two losses in the current series. Real surprising that you've chosen now of all times to come back to laugh at others who defend him 

Will you be in your stealth mode again if Wallace produces and the Pistons advance? He'll have had a few days to rest his arch, and I bet he'll recieve more favorable treatment from the refs away from NJ. We'll see what happens...

STOMP


----------



## cimalee

im rooting for sheed 

pistons must win game 7 







That Ball Aint go LIE


----------



## RipCity9

> Real surprising that you've chosen now of all times to come back to laugh at others who defend him


Oh yes, I was scared away by his impressive 11 ppg average in the playoffs! :laugh: Coming through in the clutch as per usual.


----------



## jackiejackal

Read about Sheed toward the bottom of the blog..
interesting items.

http://www.oregonlive.com/weblogs/blazersblog/


It starts out "Where's 'Sheed?"


----------



## el_Diablo

> Rasheed Wallace’s foot is bothering him. It’s the playoffs. You have to play through those things. And if you can’t, you shouldn’t be out there.
> *Rob Parker, The Detroit News*


try to decide what you want...


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>RipCity9</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh yes, I was scared away by his impressive 11 ppg average in the playoffs! :laugh: Coming through in the clutch as per usual.


13.2, but who care about getting the numbers right when you're smearing... 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=3006

... clutch shot down the stretch and gutty performance in general last night limping around on that foot (the 4 blocks were big). He sure seems to be getting his share of praise from the various announcers now that he isn't wearing Red and Black... not that thats any sort of a surprise.

STOMP


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

I think by "play through it" he means perform at the same level and put up the same stats as you would if you weren't hurt. If so, he's an idiot...

He's clearly playing through it, playing big minutes and doing what he can for the team. I'll be surprised if he doesn't show up big in game 7.


----------



## RipCity9

> clutch shot down the stretch


He hit a 5-footer over Jason Kidd. Am I supposed to be impressed? Even Ben Wallace could have made that shot.


----------



## Blazerfan024

> Originally posted by <b>RipCity9</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh yes, I was scared away by his impressive 11 ppg average in the playoffs! :laugh: Coming through in the clutch as per usual.


Considering the D he has played against Kenyon he is playing clutch. Everyone is so fast to jump to how many points he is averaging. He must of had 3 steals yesterday and like 3 blocks on kenyon. He shuts a player down and thats with a bothered foot which was re-aggravated yesterday.

Also have you seen there guards? Goodness RIP is just like damon as the start of the season. Shot after Shot , either he's on or OFF. Especially once he has the ball dont expect him to pass to many times. There are not getting the ball to the inside even wheen sheed does post up so why keep posting up when you just going to fight for postition but have your Guard lob a shot up.


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>RipCity9</b>!
> 
> 
> He hit a 5-footer over Jason Kidd. Am I supposed to be impressed? Even Ben Wallace could have made that shot.


 you've got a real way with numbers. Since the FT line is 15 feet, and he hit that jumper from the corner of the key, it's more like a 17 footer. How many blocks did you have him for last night... 1?

First you claim he's not clutch... he hits a clutch shot you switch to not being impressed because it was only over Jason Kidd... he got that look because he correctly ran a pick and roll to create the mismatch. Clutch, impressive, or however you want to classify it... thats just good ball from a consistent winner. 

His defense and play through a hobbling injury are impressive to me and obviously others. If you can't appreciate good play in an exciting series because you are hung up rooting against players, I don't think we'll ever come to common ground in this discussion... especially with your creative math.

http://www.detnews.com/2004/pistons/0405/18/f01-156261.htm

STOMP


----------



## jackiejackal

from a 2001 article

http://www.alleyoop.com/ftb/121201.htm


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> from a 2001 article
> 
> http://www.alleyoop.com/ftb/121201.htm


Love the John Hollinger... but his analysis is (as you state) from 2001 and he makes the terrible (IMO) observation that Rasheed has "good hands". Anyone who pays attention knows that Wallace's hands are tiny; he can barely dunk one-handed and to claim he has "good hands" seems a bit off to me.

The analysis he was giving, though, was that Rasheed was more than a few technicals off of being a superstar. I don't know of many people that have argued (especially since 2001) that Rasheed was a superstar. Generally, we just hear complaints that Rasheed SHOULD be a superstar from his detractors.

Ed O.


----------



## Nightfly

Man, I just hope the Nets win tonight.


----------



## Blazerfan024

> Originally posted by <b>HearToTemptYou</b>!
> Man, I just hope the Nets win tonight.


GO PISTONS!!!!:basket:


----------



## KingSpeed

*Sheed comes up huge and wins Game 7!!!*

Screw merged threads.

I LOVE THIS GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## MAS RipCity

I love Sheed and all, but 12 and 7, hardly accounts for "coming up huge" I think Ben,Chauncey, and Rip should get the majority of the accolades.


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

He played great, but it was a team effort all the way. When Detroit is hitting shots, they are SCARY.

I think this is the first time in a long time that I've been interested in both the WCF's and ECF's. Four great teams going at it...


----------



## cimalee

Go pistons


----------



## MAS RipCity

Go anyone but LA..and hurry up and get this playoffs over with!


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> Love the John Hollinger... but his analysis is (as you state) from 2001 and he makes the terrible (IMO) observation that Rasheed has "good hands". Anyone who pays attention knows that Wallace's hands are tiny; he can barely dunk one-handed and to claim he has "good hands" seems a bit off to me.


The other thing in Hollinger's analysis that stood out to me is when he was knocking Wallace's rebounding. While of course Wallace's rebounding stats are only decent at best, he points to Kenny Thomas as a "mostly perimeter player" outrebounding him per projected 40 minutes. Here's Kenny's bio (check the 3's)... 

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kenny_thomas/?nav=page

...compared to Wallace, who exactly is the perimeter player on offense? In the games I've watched, crashing the boards is what KT does almost exclusively, and he certainly isn't at the high post like Sheed is for much of the game. While he isn't as tall, he's got long arms, weighs 240+, jumps very well, and can palm the ball like a grapefruit. 

I bumped around trying to find a site that detailed team stats from that era, but going on memory alone I recall Portland's team having good size at all positions but point, and Houston being pretty much a bad club (top of the lotto). I'd venture a guess that the Blazers were probably the much better rebounding club, which is more important and telling IMO then a single players stats on a bad club which spent a good deal of it's season in garbage time.

Anyhoo, I missed most of tonights Pistons Nets game to run hoops with some friends... looks like I missed a blowout.

STOMP


----------



## marshall

Its amazing how some people can ask "where's Sheed?" in the playoffs. Hes one series away from his first finals. Got on a team where he wasnt the only scorer and actually has good shooters on the team. Even on his hurt foot he dominated a stretch of the first quarter when the game was close. Playing great team D, showing veteran leadership, and passing well. He turned a good team into a title contender and his team play should overshadow individual play.


----------



## Goldmember

I think most people felt that Sheed would do well in a complementary role. Going to a team like Detroit he didn't have to be the man. They already had an established crew and he could just step in and find his niche on the team. Unfortunately in Portland we needed more from him than that, which he is capable of. 

I see the Pistons going to the finals now because Sheed owns Jermaine. 

You know that if Detroit wins the championship, Sheed will be made to look like a hero. A great player that's just misunderstood, that's all. You know how it goes. Everyone likes to kick a dog while they're down, and they all love a winner.


----------



## Ed O

Tough game for Rasheed, particularly offensively, in Game 1.

He was effective against Jermaine on the defensive end (most of Jermaine's points came against Ben) but the Pistons kept fronting Rasheed and the Pistons (and Rasheed) weren't able to do anything to get Rasheed on the blocks.

The Pistons are the better team, IMO, and still should win the series, but they had a good chance to get Game 1 and they couldn't capitalize.

Ed O.


----------



## cimalee

I cant wait to see my boy Rasheed in teh finals


----------



## jackiejackal

well 2 points and two free throws is not
going to help you get there.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> well 2 points and two free throws is not
> going to help you get there.


The Pistons could have won in spite of his lack of scoring. He only took 5 shots before the two he took in the last seven seconds, so it's not like he was hurting them too much on the offensive end.

As Larry Brown said, they don't care if he takes NO shots because his defense is so good. With that said, he had a couple of turnovers and missed some shots that he should have hit. 

If he keeps up the defensive pressure on Jermaine, whether he scores or not the Pistons will have a better chance to make it to the Finals than they would without him.

Ed O.


----------



## ABM

*OT: 'Sheed Emphatically "Guarantees" Game 2 Pistons Win*

From: ESPN



> ......"They will not win Game 2, and you heard that from me," 'Sheed announced Saturday night after watching Foster share the hero mantle with Reggie Miller in the Pacers' 78-74 triumph Saturday night.
> 
> 
> "Put it front page, back page, middle of the page," 'Sheed continued, making you wonder what he plans to say if the Pacers do win.
> 
> 
> "They will not win Game 2."
> 
> 
> 'Sheed then receded into Both Teams Played Hard mode, repeating the same answer to the next few questions he allowed, no matter what the questions were: "They will not win Game 2."
> 
> 
> And, as a signoff: "They will not win Game 2."



So much for the _singular_, "Both teams played hard", mantra. Our little Sheed is growing up. :yes:


----------



## el_Diablo

hopefully he can back it up. not a too smart thing to do if you "can't" play...


----------



## cimalee

that ball aint gonna lie JO that ball aint gonna lie


----------



## STOMP

I always love it when the guy I'm going at starts talking up a storm. Guys popping off guaranteeing wins usually strikes me as false bravado, but of course Sheed has always chirped a lot just now he's letting the press in on his thoughts. I happen to think Detroit is the better team because of superior guard play, but I don't see this helping their cause. A little rest between games (something Indi enjoyed and Detroit didn't) will probably matter a lot more.

Wallace shot poorly, but whatever... that first game was very entertaining good ball IMO. It should continue to be.

STOMP


----------



## Dan

anytime that some player predicts a win, especially in the fashion he did, it can do 1 of 2 things.

1: utterly and embarassingly blow up in his face only to be forgotten in a day.

2: the team will barely squeek out a win and he'll be made into a hero.

Remember Sam Cassell predicting a win against Portland this year? Oh sure, it's not the conference finals, but he said it to pump up his teammates. I wonder if thats why Rasheed is doing it. 

whenever anyone predicts a win, a part of me hopes they get served lunch.


----------



## duckman1734

Rasheed's talkin pretty big for a guy that only had 4 points and 7 rebounds. They won't win game 2 unless they find a way to limit JO. Rasheed better do his job first because a lot of that loss was because of him.


----------



## yangsta

well hey.. at least he's not that one idot that responded "both teams played har" to every question asked....


----------



## Nightfly

Well if all he said is "*They* will not win game 2", maybe he was talking about the Pistons...

I hope he was.


----------



## KingSpeed

I believe this is Sheed's first guarantee EVER. I don't recall him EVER guaranteeing a victory in Portland. Let's just pay attention and see what happens. Don't diss the guy. He may very well be RIGHT.


----------



## jackiejackal

Oh I kind of think it's alright to diss him.
We earned it.

I was expecting some kind of fantastic playing from him now
that Larry and him are thisclose..
but it looked pretty predictable to me.
No show.


----------



## marshall

> Rasheed better do his job first because a lot of that loss was because of him.


That statement is pretty incorrect. They lost the game because Reggie was clutch and Chauncey Billups couldnt answer. Just one shot, not poor play by Sheed.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> 
> No show.


Ask Jermaine if Rasheed showed up.

Considering he shot 7-20 from the field, and most of those 7 shots were when Ben Wallace was guarding him, I'd say Rasheed most DEFINITELY showed up.

As Larry Brown clearly stated before the series started: they don't care if Rasheed shoots, and they don't care if he scores. If he plays good defense, rebounds and blocks shots, anything he gets on the offensive end will be gravy.

Unfortunately, Detroit could have used some gravy and there was none in Game 1.

Ed O.


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

I love Sheed but if he doesn't come out and put his stamp all over Game 2, he's gonna look a bit foolish...

After those comments, he can't just show up and defend and rebound, however important that may be to the team. He'll have to put a hurt on from the post and perimeter alike.

He doesn't always like to be THE guy, but if he's gonna talk like that he better put out.

I think he will though...


----------



## Kmurph

> Ask Jermaine if Rasheed showed up.


Should we ask Rasheed if Jeff Foster showed up? Where did that defensive monster come from?



> As Larry Brown clearly stated before the series started: they don't care if Rasheed shoots, and they don't care if he scores.


I think we could agree that they would expect more than 4pts from him though.

It will be interesting to see how he plays in game 2, now that he has "guaranteed" a victory.


----------



## Talkhard

*Jermaine & Rasheed: How times have changed!*

I couldn't help but smile when I saw the box score for the first Indiana-Detroit game. Jermaine 0'Neil had 21 points and 14 rebounds, while Rasheed Wallace had only 4 points on 1-for-7 shooting. Plus, Wallace shot an airball on a potential tying 3-pointer in the closing seconds. 

For Portland fans, this is especially ironic, given the fact that Jermaine sat on the bench behind Wallace for so many years. Wallace was the "winner," the great power forward, and Jermaine was the little kid who still had a lot to learn.

How times have changed! I know it's just one game, but it's clear that O'Neil is on the rise, and Wallace is starting to slip (in fact, he hasn't been the same player for a couple of years now). In hindsight, it would have been a much smarter move to keep Jermaine and trade Wallace.

This is the one Whitsitt move that really kills me (though I admit, at the time I thought it was a good trade).


----------



## B_&_B

*Re: Jermaine & Rasheed: How times have changed!*



> Originally posted by <b>Talkhard</b>!
> 
> This is the one Whitsitt move that really kills me



That trade has killed me for years!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## STOMP

Well heres another thing that never changes... ESPN playing fast and loose with the facts regarding Sheed. Here's Terry Brown from the 5/24 Insider...

..."did I mention that he holds the record for most technical fouls in a season, once attacked a referee in a parking lot after a game and* accused the entire state of Oregon with racism*."

I guess we have another collumnist/non-reporter with no responsibility to getting the facts strait (I think he's refering to JR Rider). I'd be PO'd if I was a public figure falsely accused of bleep like that... I'd probably be talking to my lawyer.

If you get Insider here's the link to the whole article...

http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/story?id=1806291

STOMP


----------



## mook

i've never understood the idea behind Insider. if they have any worthwhile info, it's usually the same stuff you get for free all over the internet. otherwise it's garbage like this. 

am I missing something here?


----------



## STOMP

the nice thing for me about Insider is that they complile links to most of the daily articles that come out on your fav teams. You can probably find the same article links by bumping around, but that takes more time. The in house writers are a bunch of Canzanos IMO each taking their turn stirring the pot without the restraint of keeping to actual happenings.

STOMP


----------



## KingSpeed

Blazer Ringbearer- I so COMPLETELY disagree. If Sheed scores 2 points, grabs 1 board, commits 4 fouls, and the Pistons WIN, then Rasheed Wallace was RIGHT. I do NOT think that Sheed has to have a HUGE GAME tonight to prove himself or save face. Sheed did NOT guarantee a huge individual game for himself. He guaranteed the Pacers would lose and then later guaranteed the Pistons would win (same thing.) This game is NOT about Sheed scoring or backing up his smack with his OWN performance. 

I feel like your attitude about Sheed is what was wrong with a lot of Blazer fans' attitude about Sheed back when he was with us. WHY DOES IT MATTER how he plays if the team wins?


----------



## Blazerfan024

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Blazer Ringbearer- I so COMPLETELY disagree. If Sheed scores 2 points, grabs 1 board, commits 4 fouls, and the Pistons WIN, then Rasheed Wallace was RIGHT. I do NOT think that Sheed has to have a HUGE GAME tonight to prove himself or save face. Sheed did NOT guarantee a huge individual game for himself. He guaranteed the Pacers would lose and then later guaranteed the Pistons would win (same thing.) This game is NOT about Sheed scoring or backing up his smack with his OWN performance.
> 
> I feel like your attitude about Sheed is what was wrong with a lot of Blazer fans' attitude about Sheed back when he was with us. WHY DOES IT MATTER how he plays if the team wins?



For the blazers though how his performance was what won or lost us games cause we have a lack of talent. So it mattered alot here. But yes in Detroit all they want him for is D not to score double doubles. WHich he has done (Played Great D).


----------



## KingSpeed

lack of talent?

most of the time Sheed was here, people said we had TOO MUCH talent?

we never had a lack of talent when he was here.

it's just that the talent around him didn't always step up. Sheed couldn't do it all by himself nor did he want nor should he have to. He scored FOURTEEN POINTS above his average in Game 7 vs the Lakers in 2000 and yet people still blame him for the loss and talk about him "disappearing" in the 4th qtr. I would like to say that Sheed NEVER disappeared in games. Even if he stopped scoring, he always made big defensive plays, got big rebounds, made good passes, and kept his team focused on winning.

You can criticize him all you want, but the minute we sent him out of town, we went straight to the lottery.


----------



## Blazerfan024

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> lack of talent?
> 
> most of the time Sheed was here, people said we had TOO MUCH talent?
> 
> we never had a lack of talent when he was here.
> 
> it's just that the talent around him didn't always step up. Sheed couldn't do it all by himself nor did he want nor should he have to. He scored FOURTEEN POINTS above his average in Game 7 vs the Lakers in 2000 and yet people still blame him for the loss and talk about him "disappearing" in the 4th qtr. I would like to say that Sheed NEVER disappeared in games. Even if he stopped scoring, he always made big defensive plays, got big rebounds, made good passes, and kept his team focused on winning.
> 
> You can criticize him all you want, but the minute we sent him out of town, we went straight to the lottery.



I think saying we had to much talent is a little far fetched considering the players ages etc we had alot of players that were out of primes that used to be real good.. 

NO WHERE IN MY POST AM I criticizing him, i said if it wasnt for lack of talent this year we wouldnt have had to COUNT on sheed for W OR L but since we did he gets the most criticizing from fans and media (also what he says sometimes isn't to smart).

Detroit does not have to rely on Sheed cause they have Talent and are a deep team.


----------



## ABM

Anyone care to guess what Sheed might do should the Pistons lose tonight??

Hey, anyone here old enough to remember when Darryl Dawkins (Chocolate Thunder) ripped the toilet out of the MC lockerroom after that (Game 4?) Finals loss in 1977? Classic! :laugh: :no:


----------



## B_&_B

Anyone care what Sheed does???

ABM - sorry, not old enough. :no:


----------



## ABM

BTW, -->Here's an interesting interview with ol' Chocolate Thunder....

and a funny portion from it.



> *KS:* After the Portland Trail Blazers won the 1977 Finals, Bill Walton said, "We passed the ball more; they dribbled more." That seems to agree with what you're saying.
> 
> *DD:* Portland had a team that only had one star -- Bill Walton. They had Lionel Hollins, Larry Steele, Maurice Lucas, Johnny Davis -- all of these guys you would consider working-class dogs. Bobby Gross -- they just came in and ran plays. Dave Twardzik, Walton could dish it out real good and he was a tremendous player himself. I talk about him in the book a little bit, about how he was a mountain man, and deciding not to take a shower that year. He said he would put on a red bandana and live in the mountains. Now, you gotta be smoking something if you don't take a shower the whole year. It was no big deal -- everybody was smoking it anyhow. It was an era in basketball where everyone smoked weed, did a little dope. It was just their thing.


----------



## RipCity9

> it's just that the talent around him didn't always step up


HAHAHAH! So now Sheed's erratic play is because of his teammates? You've gotta be kidding. There is no excuse for a guy making franchise player type money to have the laissez-faire attitude that he approaches games with. God every day that passes is another day I'm glad he's no longer a Trail Blazer.


----------



## jackiejackal

yikes..
if showing up means 2 points and 2 rebounds..
wow.


----------



## KingSpeed

When did Sheed say he would give you stats to impress you, Jackie?

He guaranteed VICTORY. That is all.

Don't look now. He is leading his team in scoring. But that's not important. He only guaranteed VICTORY.


----------



## jackiejackal

Did somebody say something?


----------



## jackiejackal

This has to be perhaps the ugliest basketball I have ever seen.

This wrestling match just ain't gonna get it done down in LA.
Both these teams are far far far from championship basketball.

Rasheed with his feeble play tonight surely didn't come through again. Gosh I am glad he is gone..he is not big in big games.

Guarantee?
I would say darn lucky.


Start sizing the rings for the Lakers..


----------



## Nightfly

> Originally posted by <b>ABM</b>!
> Anyone care to guess what Sheed might do should the Pistons lose tonight??
> 
> Hey, anyone here old enough to remember when Darryl Dawkins (Chocolate Thunder) ripped the toilet out of the MC lockerroom after that (Game 4?) Finals loss in 1977? Classic! :laugh: :no:


I know Dawkins tore the Sixer's locker room apart in the Spectrum after he got hit in the back of the head by Maurice Lucas.

You could tell Dawkins was pissed after game 3... All of his passes had a little extra mustard on them... Some of them went straight to Canada.


----------



## Dan

attention everyone:


No "I told you so" or "you guys are stupid" posts.

Or I will close this thread down quicker than Martha Stewart shreds important documents.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> Rasheed with his feeble play tonight surely didn't come through again. Gosh I am glad he is gone..he is not big in big games.


What are you talking about?

Remind me again how many points Jermaine O'Neal scored in the second half. Please.

Here's a hint: I had just as many.

Ed O.


----------



## KingSpeed

Deleted. No personal comments like that, please. 

Sheed shut down JO in the second half. Sheed outscored JO 8-0 in the second half.

Sheed's final line= 10 pt, 8 rebs, 5 blks. Not BIG in the big games???? 5 blocks? HUGE defense? 10 pts in a game where everyone was struggling to score 70 as a team???

Sheed was VERY big in a big game..

Sheed= Leader.

Sheed= 1-0 in playoff guarantees.

Deal with it.

Sheed don't lie.

[strike]"I TOLD YOU ALL!!!"[/strike]

Listen: this thread serves a purpose: to allow people to comment on Rasheed and the Pistons in the playoffs. We will NOT let it degenerate, and unlike Hap I am not interested in closing it because it serves a valuable purpose. Individuals who fail to understand and play by the accepted rules will have a problem. 

This is not a threat. Just a heads-up. PM me with questions. Thanks,

Ed O.


----------



## KingSpeed

Unacceptable. Deleted.


----------



## KingSpeed

Why can't I write "I TOLD YOU ALL!!!"

I was only quoting Rasheed!!!

Why is a direct quote from Rasheed unacceptable in this forum????

NOTICE THE QUOTATION MARKS, MOD!!


----------



## KingSpeed

*Official "Sheed don't lie" thread*

The Pacers "will not win game 2"- Rasheed Wallace


----------



## Nightfly

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> attention everyone:
> 
> 
> No "I told you so" or "you guys are stupid" posts.
> 
> Or I will close this thread down quicker than Martha Stewart shreds important documents.


Is that a promise?

Heh heh heh...


----------



## jackiejackal

My earlier post said they all stunk it all..it wasn't just Rasheed.
Jermaine included,big time. I don't think it was anything Rasheed did.
Jermaine didn't look himself.
I quite frankly don't even enter into most Rasheed posts anymore.
He is ancient history to me.
The only reason my interest was sparked was his mouth flapping.
No reason they would win,they would just win.
Guess he knew better than to bet on his own play.
I don't get it why he doesn't take it to the basket more.
That one block by Jermaine was so beautiful..just perfect.


Just my observation that no team in the playoffs will beat the Lakers.
Certainly not either of these two !
Is anybody impressed with either of these teams as contenders?


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> 
> Just my observation that no team in the playoffs will beat the Lakers.
> Certainly not either of these two !
> Is anybody impressed with either of these teams as contenders?


I am just as impressed by them as I am of the Lakers or the Wolves... I think the Lakers will emerge from the West, for sure, but the Pistons have the ability to compete with them because of their balance as well as their ability to defend the interior.

No one can shut down Shaq, but if the Pistons can make the Lakers beat them from the perimeter, and I think they can, they would have a chance against the Lakers.

Ed O.


----------



## cimalee

Rasheed post game comments were funny


----------



## cimalee

I cant wait to see my boy sheed in the finals pistons in 5


----------



## jackiejackal

Their games look almost like those phoney wresting matches.
I don't mean that they are phoney,but it seems like people constantly picking themselves up off the floor takes center stage
rather than the beautiful game of basketball.

Like the brawling,falling,banged up wrestlers..
boy that is ugly basketball.
Where is the scoring??

D can be a thing of beauty,but the whole game like that??

More scoring please.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> Their games look almost like those phoney wresting matches.
> I don't mean that they are phoney,but it seems like people constantly picking themselves up off the floor takes center stage
> rather than the beautiful game of basketball.


We don't often agree, so I want to go out of my way to say I agree with you here.

Reggie Miller's play, and the way Rip Hamilton is having to "fight fire with fire" methods, are pretty disgusting: pushing off the defender, locking arms, flopping almost every time down the courth... disgusting.

Throw in Ron Artest's inability or unwillingness to shoot without throwing himself into a defender and it IS ugly.

Ed O.


----------



## RipCity9

> Sheed= Leader.


Man that is just ridiculous. Even Sheed wouldn't claim to be a leader.


----------



## KingSpeed

Sheed absolutely HAS claimed to be a leader. He said he was the leader of the Blazers and he did a darn good job of it. And now he's leading the Pistons.


----------



## Nightfly

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Sheed absolutely HAS claimed to be a leader. He said he was the leader of the Blazers and he did a darn good job of it. And now he's leading the Pistons.


I don't agree with this at all.

Wallace at times played great, but he was far from what I would call a leader for the Blazers.

When did he say he was the leader of the Blazers? I don't remember that one.


----------



## TP3

[strike]Nathan,

Maybe it's time to take your "love affair" to the Piston board. Stop living in the past, dude. He's gone. Thanks.

Sooooo, how 'bout them Cubbies? [/strike]

Please take personal comments to PMs. This thread is about Rasheed Wallace, not the Cubs nor where else people should post. Thanks!


----------



## Nightfly

> Originally posted by <b>TP3</b>!
> [strike]Nathan,
> 
> Maybe it's time to take your "love affair" to the Piston board. Stop living in the past, dude. He's gone. Thanks.
> 
> Sooooo, how 'bout them Cubbies? [/strike]
> 
> Please take personal comments to PMs. This thread is about Rasheed Wallace, not the Cubs nor where else people should post. Thanks!


Well, along the same lines (but not exact), if anyone wants to talk more about Wallace, there *are* some great Pistons fans on the Pistons board. They probably have more insight on Wallace's time in Detroit then most of use do.

Some of my favorite posters on this site are pistons fans, like Brian, DetBNyce, jvanbusk, etc...

I'm not directing this post at any one in particular... it's just sort of a heads up for those that haven't checked out the Pistons board.


----------



## Scout226

It's amazing the impact Sheed has had on the Blazers and it's fans. He's single-handedly put the fans at war with each other. I've noticed Sheed discussions here, and over on the ESPN board, have gotten more heated than politics, abortion, gay marriages, etc.. 

The only thing new in this thread that I've never seen anyone stand behind before is stating Sheed is a leader. Seriously, when was Sheed a leader? Besides wearing the "C" on his uni, what leadership qualities did he portray? 

Most leaders will lead by example. I thank God Zach didn't follow Sheeds' example and take his summers off..


----------



## jackiejackal

Wait a minute !
Stop the presses.
Does this mean I am a fan of you, Hear To Tempt You ???

Oh the outrage !

This is perhaps the biggest injustice ever inflicted on me.


----------



## HOWIE

> Originally posted by <b>HearToTemptYou</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, along the same lines (but not exact), if anyone wants to talk more about Wallace, there *are* some great Pistons fans on the Pistons board. They probably have more insight on Wallace's time in Detroit then most of use do.
> 
> Some of my favorite posters on this site are pistons fans, like Brian, DetBNyce, jvanbusk, etc...
> 
> I'm not directing this post at any one in particular... *it's just sort of a heads up for those that haven't checked out the Pistons board.*


You mean there are other boards that talk about other teams?  

I bet next your going to say that the world is round! :laugh: 

Anywho, I don't know if Detroit is going to beat Indiana, I think it goes 7 games, but I do think that Detroit has the best chance of beating the Lakers should it come down to those two. :yes:


----------



## bayarea_blazer

I haven't gotten a chance to watch much of the detroit/indiana series until tonight's game 3. At the end of the game they interviewed rasheed and rip and showed a clip of rasheed high fiving an old lady in the stands. 

I know its the past but it still bothers me that he seems to be pretty cool with the media now and his position at detroit. I wish he wanted to stay a blazer. 

But I guess we'll see if he warms out his welcome.


----------



## jackiejackal

He appeared to be a bitter, bitter man here.
Thank god he is gone.
No ring for him this year tho,thank god !

Talk about injustice with him winning anything.
He stole Portland's money all those years,now puts out effort???
Old history now,and Portland with a very bright future..

I have heard more words come out of his cragged mouth in
the playoffs, than I heard in 8 years here.
He preferred to blame it all on Portland,god knows why.

The other thing I will be closely watching in the playoffs is if he
is jumping around laughing and giggling it up in the locker room
after they get booted out of the playoffs.
THAT was perhaps my most bitter memories of him.
It looked like his biggest losses came on his most joyful nights
in the locker room.

We shall see.


----------



## KingSpeed

[strike]Jackie- it is YOU who is bitter. [/strike]Sheed was never bitter. He was always a pro that his teammates liked being around and kept his team in good spirits through good times and bad. A real winner. You may not get to see how he reacts when he's "out of it" because he might just win the whole damn thing this year. [strike]Boy, would that make you even more bitter, esp since your Grizzlies got swept.[/strike]

If you've got a point to make, make it and leave the personal stuff OUT of it.


----------



## jackiejackal

Nathan,are you kidding with these posts??


----------



## RipCity9

> Sheed was never bitter. He was always a pro that his teammates liked being around and kept his team in good spirits through good times and bad. A real winner.


That's some great comic relief right there. A real winner. Yep, that's what I think of when someone mentions Rasheed Wallace. :laugh:


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>RipCity9</b>!
> 
> That's some great comic relief right there. A real winner. Yep, that's what I think of when someone mentions Rasheed Wallace. :laugh:


Name the last time Rasheed Wallace's team wasn't in the playoffs.

The only people who don't see him as a winner seem to be those who impose unrealistic expectations on him and/or find his personality unpalatable.

The fact is that he's been on a series of winning teams, and he's been one of the top players, if not THE top player, on each of them. Unless one has a warped definition of "winner", Rasheed certainly is a winner.

Ed O.


----------



## jackiejackal

Here is another interesting article on Sheed.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/marty_burns/05/20/rasheed.game7/index.html

Note this statement at tthe bottom :

"And with that sum comes a level of obligation."

It almost gets missed,yet to me that sums up the entire relationship that Sheed DID'T have with Portland.

If you are working for someone,it brings a level of obligation with it.
You don't just take the money,and treat your city like crap.

If you don't like the city/fans,then don't take their money,move on.
I never felt,or heard anything from Sheed that would make me feel comfortable with him representing Portland or even the Portland Trailblazers.


----------



## Blazerfan024

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> Name the last time Rasheed Wallace's team wasn't in the playoffs.
> 
> The only people who don't see him as a winner seem to be those who impose unrealistic expectations on him and/or find his personality unpalatable.
> 
> The fact is that he's been on a series of winning teams, and he's been one of the top players, if not THE top player, on each of them. Unless one has a warped definition of "winner", Rasheed certainly is a winner.
> 
> Ed O.




:clap:


----------



## jackiejackal

As far as the teams being in the playoffs 
because of Sheed?

I don't believe for a minute he is why they 
were,or now,not in the playoffs.

Portland got stronger,more cohesive as a team when he left.
The team that finished the season would have been in the playoffs,they just lost too much ground.
Besides,even with Sheed,this is not a championship team.
They lack a deadeye shooter.

Unless someone in the Portland staff is a darn liar, we have heard countless times through the grapevine that things are much better without him.

To hear some here,he was a charming
wonderful guy.
Really??
Evertime he opened his craggy toothed
mouth,he spewed poison.

When playoffs are over for him,the sooner the better.


----------



## TP3

Ed,

When was the last time Rick Fox's team didn't make the playoffs? That's not a valid arguement. When's the last time Rasheed's team achieved what they could have if he'd play like he's capable of every night? Classic underachiever.


----------



## marshall

He played the Lakers 5 years in a row...And this year wont meet them till the finals. Even now he might get eliminated by Shaq and Kobe. What more could Sheed do winning wise? A title. Barkley,Ewing,Stockton...all under achievers


----------



## RipCity9

> What more could Sheed do winning wise? A title. Barkley,Ewing,Stockton...all under achievers


At least they made it to the Finals - and no, winning the JV league does not count.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>TP3</b>!
> 
> When was the last time Rick Fox's team didn't make the playoffs? That's not a valid arguement. When's the last time Rasheed's team achieved what they could have if he'd play like he's capable of every night? Classic underachiever.


It absolutely IS a valid argument. Your criticism of it fails in at least three respects:

-- You assume Rick Fox is not a winner. I think that most people associated with him in the NBA would argue that he is a good veteran influence who helped the Lakers get over the top.

-- You ignore that Rasheed has consistently been the best (or one of the top couple) player on his team as they've consistently been one of the league's best teams. Rick Fox is nothing but a role player, and in fact has only been a starter in more than half of the Lakers games in 3 of his seven years as a Laker.

-- Rick Fox has missed the playoffs 4 of his 13 seasons in the NBA. Rasheed Wallace has missed them 1 of his 9. This is a significant difference, IMO.

I'm not going to address your "classic underachiever" statement because I am not going to change your mind about how good Rasheed SHOULD be because it's entirely subjective on your part and can't be supported or refuted by any objective evidence.

Ed O.


----------



## mook

i just don't understand how anyone, regardless of what you think of the guy, can not call Sheed a winner. 

he was the best player on two WCF teams, where he was the best offensive and defensive player. 

he's consistently had one of the best +/- stats on his team for most of his career. 

his teams almost always have a winning record and almost never miss the playoffs. 

he's played three different positions, 
started and came off the bench, all depending on what his coach wants without complaint. 

nearly every playoffs his stats and his post defense surpass his regular season performances. 

I can see why some don't like the guy. he says some stupid things, both to the media and the refs. he often shows up at the beginning of the season out of shape. he doesn't work out enough. 

SAR does all the right things. he's respectful of refs, he's always in shape, he doesn't say dumb things to the media. but he just happens to have never played in a single playoff game in his ENTIRE NBA career. 

SAR is a nice guy. I'd trust him to watch my house for the weekend. Rasheed Wallace is a winner. I'd be much more inclined to trust him on a playoff team.


----------



## 12666

> Originally posted by <b>RipCity9</b>!
> 
> God every day that passes is another day I'm glad he's no longer a Trail Blazer.





> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> 
> Thank god he is gone.
> No ring for him this year tho,thank god !


I'm sure god is happy to know all of you Sheed bashers have your priorities strait. It's funny the lengths some go to trash him, and blow off his successes (recent and past) to grind whats left of your ax nubs. 

Does not talking to the Oregonian (which burned him numerous times) really equate to "treating the city like crap?" On the court he was a captain, a 2 time All Star, and they made the playoffs every single year he was here. He guarded everyone from Peja to Shaq. Off the court he was (according to Nash and others) one of the most charitable Blazers and very active in the community. He was the only Blazer who raised his family in Portland and lived here year round. The only thing bad about the town I've ever heard or read him say is that all the constant speculation over him stresses out his "wifey."

I'm not surprised he's found more success in Detroit, as they had a good team before he arrived. His Blazer teams that advanced deep inot the playoffs always seemed to have their wheels fall off in the health department. It seems he's running and jumping better now then in the NJ series. Hopefully he'll continue to heal up (and the rest of the Pistons will stay healthy too) so we can have a championship series worth watching for once.


----------



## TP3

Not talking to the Oregonian was a very small part in all of it. It has everything to do with fact that "Portland" and "dysfunctional" became synonomous because of one guy, your man, Rasheed! Way to go Rasheed! You da man! 

Thanks Rasheed for always being a professional and your incredible discipline. Thanks for working so hard on your game and in the weight room in the off-season. Thanks for always stepping up your game in the 4th quarter. Thanks for your great example to your young teammates and being someone my son could aspire to be.

Please forgive all these people who said you had fault in any of these areas. You gave Portland the greatest 6/7/8 years! We are all eternally grateful to you.

:sigh:


----------



## Goldmember

Yeah, Sheed is great. He had his worst season as a Blazer and let us fall into such a deep hole to start the year that we couldn't get out of it. 

Then he falls into the lap of a team that was already a contender, where all he has to do is be a role player, and all of sudden he's a winner.


----------



## TP3

Ed,

I just read your response. You're right...Rick Fox is a role player...that's what I'm calling Rasheed. He's not taking an average team anywhere but he is a great complimentary player. A Great role player! In my opinion, Rick Fox and Rasheed have about the same impact on winning. You BETTER not count on either of them, but if you need a guy who can give your team a lift from time to time and play good defense, they're great.

The problem with Rasheed is that he has SO MUCH ABILITY (Rick Fox isn't in the same universe ability-wise) and chooses to do the minimum with it night in and night out. That's all. 

Role players are nice but put Rasheed on an average or below-average team...they ain't going anywhere, epecially not the playoffs...we'll maybe in the east.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>TP3</b>!
> Ed,
> 
> I just read your response. You're right...Rick Fox is a role player...that's what I'm calling Rasheed. He's not taking an average team anywhere but he is a great complimentary player. A Great role player! In my opinion, Rick Fox and Rasheed have about the same impact on winning. You BETTER not count on either of them, but if you need a guy who can give your team a lift from time to time and play good defense, they're great.


Wait... so Rasheed was the best player on his team, and a role player? 

How did he manage to lead his team in scoring and shotblocking and other key stats in spite of his "role player" status? Wouldn't it follow that he was the best player by default, which means the other players must not have been that good? And, therefore, he led teams populated with players worse than himself to Conference Finals twice and the playoffs repeatedly?

It seems to be ignoring reality to say that Rasheed is a mere role player who only prospered in Portland because he was surrounded by good players.



> The problem with Rasheed is that he has SO MUCH ABILITY (Rick Fox isn't in the same universe ability-wise) and chooses to do the minimum with it night in and night out. That's all.


That's not a problem at all for me, nor for Rasheed, nor for the Pistons. I think that it's really only a problem for some fans who want him to be something he's not.

And considering many of the same fans that are so frustrated by him not reaching (what they perceive as) his true potential also make statements like he "chooses to do the minimum with it night in and night out" ... I don't see how an objective observer could think the Rasheed bashers are being intellectually honest.

Ed O.


----------



## mook

> Originally posted by <b>TP3</b>!
> In my opinion, Rick Fox and Rasheed have about the same impact on winning.


mental note: anyone who can post this should have no credibility in any future post.

the idea that you could plug a Rick Fox-equivalent power forward into our 2000 team and still reach the WCF is beyond laughable. it's absolutely ridiculous. 

it's insane. 

you can discount Rasheed for his personality and his antics, but you just can't deny his impact. people don't have these sort of arguments over the Rick Foxes, Gary Trents, Robert Horrys of the world.


----------



## Blazerfan024

> Originally posted by <b>Goldmember</b>!
> Yeah, Sheed is great. He had his worst season as a Blazer and let us fall into such a deep hole to start the year that we couldn't get out of it.
> 
> Then he falls into the lap of a team that was already a contender, where all he has to do is be a role player, and all of sudden he's a winner.


Yep all rasheed i mean he would dribble it down and hold the ball for 20 secs, It wasnt rasheed who helped Zach's game nope, it was sheed who helps DA go 1-20 from the floor..


GIVE ME A BREAK!

Before he left and we actually got a little talent (Darius) we started to win but shhhhh we wont talk about that, we have to bash him.


----------



## TP3

It's not 2000 anymore. Sheed's a role player. Yah, he's better than Rick Fox but solely because God gave him a 10ft wingspan...but he wins because he's been on good teams. I don't remember the Bullets winning, he sure as heck wasn't winning this year in PDX. Calling Rasheed a winner is hilarious. What's HE won?


----------



## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>TP3</b>!
> Not talking to the Oregonian was a very small part in all of it. It has everything to do with fact that "Portland" and "dysfunctional" became synonomous because of one guy, your man, Rasheed! Way to go Rasheed! You da man!


I seem to remember some guy named JR who had a few off-court issues here.

barfo


----------



## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>TP3</b>!
> Calling Rasheed a winner is hilarious. What's HE won?


Depends on where you draw the line, doesn't it? By your apparent standards, every player currently on the blazers is a loser, as is about 95% of the rest of the league. 

Me, I'd say anyone who plays even a minute in the NBA is a winner. 

barfo


----------



## 12666

> Originally posted by <b>TP3</b>!
> Thanks Rasheed for always being a professional and your incredible discipline. Thanks for working so hard on your game and in the weight room in the off-season. Thanks for always stepping up your game in the 4th quarter. Thanks for your great example to your young teammates and being someone my son could aspire to be.


Oh the humanity! It makes me so nervous to think about all the Portlanders who were forever scarred by looking up to Blazers in their youth. Walton's reported Pot, Coke, and LSD use, Billy Ray Bates drinking his way out of the league, Duck unable to say no to 3rd helpings surely warped the fragile young minds of kids with overeating tendencies. Its really rather incredible that we have a functioning society with such a bad influence in our community.

sarcasm off

I also think your claim about him being a poor role model for young teammates is questionable at best. Both Jermaine and Zach credit him as a friend and a main mentor when they came into the league and they both are finding lots of success. They claim he offered them insights into the league and gave them a top player to learn from in practice. Maybe they were able to gleen the good things that he has to offer and not become a carbon copy of him? A cause and effect model would seem to indicate that he's actually been a good role model for his young teammates.


----------



## KingSpeed

*Sheed delivers the goods in a HUGE game on the road!!!*

And a new Nike ad debuts starring... HIM!!!

Sheed FINALLY gets his 11th playoff win in a single YEAR, the 11th win that eluded him when he played with those softies, BG and Sabonis.

Sheed closing in on the Finals.

Haters trying to figure out who we can trick into trading for Shareef Abdur-Rahim!

LMAO!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## cimalee

Iam so happy for Rasheed once they win the eatern con finals on tuesday he will go crazy lol


----------



## sabas4mvp

I'd have to say I like the Nike commercial.


----------



## cimalee

> Originally posted by <b>sabas4mvp</b>!
> I'd have to say I like the Nike commercial.




I was just to make a post about that . I loved that commerical


----------



## KingSpeed

I don't think Sheed will go crazy if they win on Tuesday. He will hold off his real celebration for when they win the championship.


----------



## Dan

yan, that big softie Sabonis...uh huh.

lets get some things straight here.

1: because Rasheed had a good series, and could potentially play in the finals, does not change the fact he wasn't going to stay in Portland, and the team wasn't going to go far in the playoffs.

2: he's gone. He needed to go. Get over it.

3: his team can go onto win the title (actually, that'd be good, imho). That really doesn't mean anything, nor does it mean that we need to hear that all the people who were glad he was gone are now "haters". It's childish and just promotes an argument. 

4: the 11th win is really not the same now as it was in the past. For they added a game to the playoffs. So the 11th win now is the same as the 10th win in the old playoff format. 1 win away from the finals. Big whoopty damn doo.


unlike Ed, I won't merge this into another thread if this starts to head into a ***** fest. It will be trashed.


----------



## Nightfly

*Re: Sheed delivers the goods in a HUGE game on the road!!!*



> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> And a new Nike ad debuts starring... HIM!!!
> 
> Sheed FINALLY gets his 11th playoff win in a single YEAR, the 11th win that eluded him when he played with those softies, BG and Sabonis.
> 
> Sheed closing in on the Finals.
> 
> Haters trying to figure out who we can trick into trading for Shareef Abdur-Rahim!
> 
> LMAO!!!!!!!!!!


Since you love sheed so much, why don't you become a Pistons fan?

Why can't you just let it go already? He's gone, and he's never coming back.

For being a Blazers fan, you sure seem to hate anything this franchise has done recently...


----------



## KingSpeed

Ummmmm.... you do NOT know if Sheed was going to leave us anyway. AND you do not KNOW if Sheed will never come back.

What we DO know is that the Pistons are MUCH MUCH MUCH better than they were without Sheed and the Blazers are much worse.

Cheers.


----------



## mediocre man

As irritating of a poster that Nathan is, I have to agree with him. The Pistons are a much better team with Sheed than without him. He has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is a great role player. I think if Portland had given up on him being a superstar like his talent suggests he should have been, and just used him as a 2nd or 3rd option we might have won the championship when we and he fizzled in the 4th quarter against the Lakers. Surrounding Sheed with really good talent and leaders seems to have made him a solid player....wow imagine that. Good job Nathan you have just made everyone's argument in here that bashes Sheed. HE IS NOT A SUPERSTAR, JUST AN UNDERACHIEVING SUPERTALENT THAT WHEN SURROUNDED BY LEADERS AND TALENT PLAYS WELL.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Ummmmm.... you do NOT know if Sheed was going to leave us anyway. AND you do not KNOW if Sheed will never come back.
> 
> What we DO know is that the Pistons are MUCH MUCH MUCH better than they were without Sheed and the Blazers are much worse.
> 
> Cheers.


since Damon had said that Rasheed was leaving Portland at the end of the year, yes I do know that he was not coming back.


----------



## jackiejackal

Bullpucky to someone here for the opinion that Blazers are "no good" without Rasheed.

That simply is not true.
They are just as good maybe even better.

This sudden manic chatter about him
is weird..


----------



## jackiejackal

"softies, BG and Sabonis."
I am surprized more posters are not up in arms about this comment.

My god,what more did you want from Sabas??
And Brian Grant was a warrior here,and a crowd favorite.

I really take offense at anything said about Sabas..
Geez Louise,I don't know of any player in the entire NBA that plays with a body like his with all those years of injuries.

All these stabs at the Blazers are really
wearing thin with me.


----------



## Minstrel

Personally, I wish they hadn't traded Wallace. I was glad they got some decent value for him, but Wallace was more valuable than what we got back.

Perhaps he wouldn't have returned...if so, we'd get his cap relief which could be parlayed, with the departure of Stoudamire, into a pretty decent player. Or perhaps we could have worked a sign-and-trade.

I think Portland would have made the playoffs this season with Wallace, so we'd also have gained a better season.

But anyway, what's done is done. I don't start threads to mourn Wallace's departure. But if the merits of trading him are being argued here, I'll give my view that Portland should have kept him.


----------



## jackiejackal

Well Rahim has to be the biggest disappointment in years,at least to me as a fan.

I agree,the timing was bad.


----------



## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>mediocre man</b>!
> HE IS NOT A SUPERSTAR, JUST AN UNDERACHIEVING SUPERTALENT THAT WHEN SURROUNDED BY LEADERS AND TALENT PLAYS WELL.


And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. 

barfo


----------



## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> 
> since Damon had said that Rasheed was leaving Portland at the end of the year, yes I do know that he was not coming back.


Methinks Damon is not exactly the most credible source of information - on any subject - in town. 

barfo


----------



## cimalee

I always wanted Rasheed to stay in Portland but it was best for both partys to part ways . Its Zach team now


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>barfo</b>!
> 
> 
> Methinks Damon is not exactly the most credible source of information - on any subject - in town.
> 
> barfo


what exactly would Damon benefit from saying something like this?


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> 
> what exactly would Damon benefit from saying something like this?


He doesn't need a motive; he could simply be wrong. In judging reliability of sources, Stoudamire doesn't seem like the type I'd rank highly.


----------



## Webster's Dictionary

Okay, all this talk about "We should have kept Sheed because this" or "It's good we traded Rasheed because that" wears me down and as corny as it may sound when everyone else says it, I have to say it too. It's done, he's gone, we have a new team, one that's worth supporting, one that will make the playoffs next year, one that is only going to get better this offseason, one that despite some oppionions, has a _very_ bright future. GET OVER IT, then maybe I can come back into this forum and not feel like the Blazer world is about to experience Armagedon.

I guess the thing that really lights me off is the dig on Sabas and Brian. WTH? Labeling BG a softy? He *******  no masked swearing please  guarded Shaq in the finals when Sabonis was out. He had more heart and effort than anyone I've ever seen play. Seriously. Brian Grant?

And Sabas? Shaq knew he could throw all the strength he had into Sabonis because the refs saw Sabas as being the only guy big enough to take that crap from Shaq.

I mean if you're going to post about why we shouldn't have traded Wallace, or why the Blazers didn't defeat the Lakers in the playoffs, at least don't throw out blind criticisms at our hardest working players.


----------



## Goldmember

I find it ironic that media and fans are now singing Rasheed's praises, while just a few months ago he was viewed as the conerstone of an underachieving group of malcontents.

Personally the team became a lot more enjoyable once Bonzi and Sheed were gone. I happen to enjoy watching Theo much more than Rasheed. And in actuality, we wont know the true result of the trade until we see what we get for Reef this summer.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> He doesn't need a motive; he could simply be wrong. In judging reliability of sources, Stoudamire doesn't seem like the type I'd rank highly.


so who do you trust then? The GM who basically said it? Or the radio guys who said it? or the media who's said it?

Or do we only trust Rasheed, who basically said it (in not so many words)?


----------



## KingSpeed

Jackie- you like to measure a player's worth by how he played in Game 7 of the 2000 WCFs, right?

Let's take a look at Sabonis and that warrior of yours- Brian Grant:

Sabonis- 6 pts (2-6 FGs), 5 rebs, 0 blocked shots, 33 minutes

Grant- 0 pts, 2 rebs, 8 pretty useless minutes (what a Warrior!)

Sabonis had FIVE rebounds and ZERO blocked shots in the biggest game of his life! No WONDER Sheed threw a towel in his face the following year. If Sheed had ANY help in the front line in 2000, he would already have a ring.

And WHO dared call Sheed a "role player"? Sorry. He is much more than a role player. He had 22 pts, 8 rebs, 3 blks last night. Those aren't "role player" numbers.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> so who do you trust then? The GM who basically said it? Or the radio guys who said it? or the media who's said it?
> 
> Or do we only trust Rasheed, who basically said it (in not so many words)?


I never saw Rasheed say anything CLOSE to that. I would be interested where you saw it (it's totally possible I missed a quote or two, or missed in inference or implication).

I would say we trust no one, though, except for Rasheed himself. The fact is that players almost never leave for other teams if their current teams are willing to pay them. If Rasheed was going to leave, it was probably going to be because Portland was tightening the purse strings or make a PR move.

The team was significantly worse (IMO) after losing Rasheed, and I think that it cost us the playoffs. Considering what we got, though, and that we still will get something for SAR, and that ZR-Rasheed was never going to be an optimal pairing, I don't think that the deal was that bad, and I don't really regret it, for whatever that's worth.

Ed O.


----------



## jackiejackal

"Jackie- you like to measure a player's worth by how he played in Game 7 of the 2000 WCFs, right?"

Where in the hell do you get your information????
When did I ever say that?
Why would I say that???
*Deleted.*
No name-calling, please. Thanks, Ed O.


----------



## jackiejackal

Yeah this team was really on a roll when Rasheed was here..
man...
we were steamrolling right into "maybe" making the playoffs.

Yeah..
and there is last year....wow..we were good 
and yeah..the year before....god I am glad we had Sheed in those days.


----------



## jackiejackal

*Deleted. * Please PM me or another moderator of you have questions about rules of conduct or methods of moderating. Thanks! Ed O.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> 
> and there is last year....wow..we were good


Yep. 50 wins. Only four teams in the *whole NBA* had more regular season victories. How's that NOT a good team?



> and yeah..the year before....god I am glad we had Sheed in those days.


Again, we were pretty good. 49 wins (only 7 teams had more) in spite of the absence of Sabonis, who so many people now like to claim was so critical to the team's success.

Sometimes you don't know what you had until it's gone. And sometimes people refuse to acknowledge what they had because they're stubborn.

Ed O.


----------



## jackiejackal

and that translated into what in the playoffs???


----------



## jackiejackal

*Deleted. * Please PM me or another moderator of you have questions about rules of conduct or methods of moderating. Thanks! Ed O.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> and that translated into what in the playoffs???


Losses to the Lakers and Mavs. Two superior teams that won the title (in the case of the Lakers) and made it to the Conference Finals (in the case of the Mavs).

There was no shame in losing to superior teams in the playoffs, IMO, and to act like this team wasn't good the last several years merely because of tough opening round playoff matchups seems misguided.

Ed O.


----------



## jackiejackal

*Deleted. * Please PM me or another moderator of you have questions about rules of conduct or methods of moderating. Thanks! Ed O.


----------



## jackiejackal

This team has been in a steady decline for years.
In every conceivable way.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> This team has been in a steady decline for years.
> In every conceivable way.


Except, of course, for the most important: wins. The team won MORE games last year (50) than it had the year before (49).

Ed O.


----------



## jackiejackal

*Deleted. * Please PM me or another moderator of you have questions about rules of conduct or methods of moderating. Thanks! Ed O.


----------



## jackiejackal

i see...
well the Blazers have been sitting pretty darn low in the playoffs 
lately,til they hit rock bottom and didn't make it at all.

Bonzi and Rasheed both helped the decline speed up


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> so who do you trust then? The GM who basically said it? Or the radio guys who said it? or the media who's said it?
> 
> Or do we only trust Rasheed, who basically said it (in not so many words)?


I trust what actually happens. It's not like we got our franchise player back for him. Either we'll deal SAR again or we'll let him walk.

We could have easily let Wallace walk, which gives us the ability to gamble and see if something could be worked out. Or we could have done a sign & trade.

Meanwhile, we may have squeezed one more playoff appearance out of him. Considering how close Portland came, I think the difference between Wallace and Randolph playing great together and SAR and Randolph being useless together would have made up the critical difference.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> i see...
> well the Blazers have been sitting pretty darn low in the playoffs
> lately,til they hit rock bottom and didn't make it at all.
> 
> Bonzi and Rasheed both helped the decline speed up


I'd say trading those two guys caused the "hitting rock bottom and not making it at all."

Again, look how close Portland came to making the playoffs, and that was with SAR generally doing little for the team. Wallace was doing much better.


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> and that translated into what in the playoffs???


...apparently it translated into some fans forgetting about injuries sidelining much of their rotation and blaming those who stayed healthy for not being able to pick up the slack. At one point in that Dallas series last season they had under 1/2 of their payrole in uniform. They could have curled up and gone home but instead they came together and fought hard with what they had left... I (for one) enjoyed seeing my favorite team play with grit even if the final results were not what I'd hoped. 

STOMP


----------



## Terrible

*It's a miracle!*

Seven months ago or even seven years ago Rasheed Wallace couldn't get a free bus pass by the media or the refs. Now Sheed is the vocal leader of a team he's been on for less then half a year, and has national commercials and has been reborn a fan favorite and a go to player to boot? How did this happen?

Has Sheed's game changed that much since being in Portland? Are his #'s way up? Does he still jar with the refs all game long? How is it possible that he got kicked out of the western conference finals for staring at a ref and now can't buy a T with a crowbar and a empty parking structure?


Who knew that the worst image that ever happened to basketball with no effort of his own could be reborn this way!

Is it the city he's in now? Is it only exceptable to be a bad boy in Detroit? Is Larry Brown that much of a media darling? Has Stern found the team he really wants to play the Lakers for the best marketing outcome?

Who knows but I can tell ya this, Sheed has played with many more talented players in Portland than he's ever played with in Detroit. 

I hope Paul Allen is watching this cause a message has been sent. The NBA does not see Portland as a marketable city and that's why Sheed is a star now and was a disgrace in Portland.

Unreal!


----------



## Dan

well, remember, we're just a little bumpkin town who doesn't understand rasheed...

the same thing happened to Iverson when he won the MVP. The year before, he was a thug. The year after, a thug. In between? A loveable mvp!

Rasheed is no different now, than when he played in Portland. It's just the media glory train is working in his favor.


----------



## Terrible

The NBA and the media are truly showing what prostitutes they are now? Anything for a buck or a rating huh boys?


:sigh:


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Terrible</b>!
> The NBA and the media are truly showing what prostitutes they are now? Anything for a buck or a rating huh boys?
> 
> 
> :sigh:


thats been my view for years now. I don't think any smaller market team will ever get a fair shot from this openly biased league or in the national media unless they have a player who can move product (like LaBron). Portland was a threat to the money makers during Rasheed's Blazer days, and they were treated as the enemy. Thats not to condone Wallace's tantrums (I cringe most every time a player makes faces after a call goes against them), but the selective way that some players get away with hacking, traveling, and showing up the refs is truely bleep IMO.

BTW... I disagree that Detroit's players are less talented then the teammates Wallace had in Portland (they've won 50 games without him after all), but they certainly are healthier then Portland ever was in the playoffs. Scottie especially always had his wheels fall off in the playoffs. 

STOMP


----------



## KingSpeed

don't egg on another poster, even if you feel they've egged you on.
You really don't know what you're talking about. You TOTALLY bashed Sheed by bring up Game 7 (the game in which Sheed scored 30 points), but you don't like to look at Game 7 when we talk about Brian Grant and Sabonis.

Rasheed Wallace is a GREAT player and we were one of the best teams in the LEAGUE while we had him. Now he's gone and we are terrible. And now that the Pistons have Sheed, they are contenders.

I know you hate it, but it's the truth.


----------



## KingSpeed

*More schooling.*

Fun stat:

Whenever a Rasheed Wallace team has home court advantage, they ALWAYS win the series. EVERY SINGLE TIME.*

* In 1999, Sheed's Blazers won without HCA. And his 04 Pistons may do the same this year, which is amazing because, before this season, the Pistons struggled to just win the series in which they had HCA.


----------



## Dan

*Re: More schooling.*



> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Fun stat:
> 
> Whenever a Rasheed Wallace team has home court advantage, they ALWAYS win the series. EVERY SINGLE TIME.*
> 
> * In 1999, Sheed's Blazers won without HCA. And his 04 Pistons may do the same this year, which is amazing because, before this season, the Pistons struggled to just win the series in which they had HCA.


fun stat:

Rasheed is no longer a blazer. Who cares.


----------



## KingSpeed

Hap- do you ever talk about Sabonis or Drexler in here? They're no longer Blazers either.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Hap- do you ever talk about Sabonis or Drexler in here? They're no longer Blazers either.


well, considering the circumstances, it's a little different to bring up Drexler (traded over 9 years ago) and Sabonis (not traded) and Rasheed (traded underachiever/scapegoat).

No one is going to put Rasheed in the same class as Drexler as far as importance to the franchise. It's simply not the same to bring up Drexler as it is to bring up Rasheed, over and over.

I'm sure that people complained about Drexlers trade in 95, and the subsequent title that the Rockets won. But so what? Just like the BLazers team that Drexler was traded from, this Blazers team was not going to compete for a title, no matter how much you believed they were. They just weren't good enough.

No one is talking about Sabonis as if "he lead us to" 10 wins in the playoffs, or that any team with Sabonis that had HCA won their series, as tho it's proof he shouldn't have been traded. No one is bringing up how he's doing on another team (stat wise, not much better than he did in his worst year in Portland). No one is saying that if Sabonis had played on this current team, they would've done this or that.

Sabonis didn't alienate (or become a scapegoat to) a large number of fans.

I know you can see the difference.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> 
> well, considering the circumstances, it's a little different to bring up Drexler (traded over 9 years ago) and Sabonis (not traded) and Rasheed (traded underachiever/scapegoat).
> 
> No one is going to put Rasheed in the same class as Drexler as far as importance to the franchise. It's simply not the same to bring up Drexler as it is to bring up Rasheed, over and over.
> 
> ...
> 
> I know you can see the difference.


Honestly, Hap, I think you're creating an artificial distinction. You want to discuss former players that *you* liked and limit discussion on former players that *you* didn't like.

I don't think that's reasonable at all. Either we should have a firm rule (bad as that rule would be, IMO) that *no* former players can be discussed (including Sabonis, Drexler, Walton), or we shouldn't try to shout down any discussion of a former player that some of us didn't like.

Rasheed Wallace was hardly a quick pass-through. He was a significant part of this franchise's history and always will be, whether some people like that or not. The fact that he's still active and recently traded makes him even more relevant.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Honestly, Hap, I think you're creating an artificial distinction. You want to discuss former players that *you* liked and limit discussion on former players that *you* didn't like.


who said I didn't like Rasheed? I have always said I liked him, but it was time for him to go.


> I don't think that's reasonable at all. Either we should have a firm rule (bad as that rule would be, IMO) that *no* former players can be discussed (including Sabonis, Drexler, Walton), or we shouldn't try to shout down any discussion of a former player that some of us didn't like.


again, if we start hearing people going off about how Sabonis (or Drexler) played a lot better after the Blazers traded him/he retired, and what not, that'd be the same. But since in most cases, the discussions about Drexler (as few as they are) or Sabonis (as few are they are) are *NOT* about how the team should've kept him/I was right you are wrong/you know nothing/edited etc, I don't see how you can honestly say it's the same.



> Rasheed Wallace was hardly a quick pass-through. He was a significant part of this franchise's history and always will be, whether some people like that or not. The fact that he's still active and recently traded makes him even more relevant.


no one is questioning his place in the teams history, but when it's brought up after his new team had an important win, as though that is proof he shouldn't have been traded, it's not the same as someone bringing up Sabonis returning.

How'd you like it if everytime Pippen had a bad game last year, someone said 

"SEE? all you people who thought we should've kept Pippen..how do you feel now!?!?!" 

Or something along those lines. You'd get tired of it, no? You'd want the person to realize that Pippen is gone, and his lack of performance (or his teams performance) bears no importance, or relation to the Blazers.

like I said, my assertion that Rasheed isn't a blazer, and who cares what he does? No one knows how the team would've ended the season, but we do know he was traded. Constantly bringing up his new teams accomplishments really has nothing to do with the Blazers.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> How'd you like it if everytime Pippen had a bad game last year, someone said
> 
> "SEE? all you people who thought we should've kept Pippen..how do you feel now!?!?!"
> 
> Or something along those lines. You'd get tired of it, no? You'd want the person to realize that Pippen is gone, and his lack of performance (or his teams performance) bears no importance, or relation to the Blazers.


This happened all the time with Brian Grant and Jermaine O'Neal. This isn't new...it happens whenever a player is dealt, because it provides a continuing body of evidence for whether the player "should have" been traded. Which is a legitimate topic of discussion.



> like I said, my assertion that Rasheed isn't a blazer, and who cares what he does?


Why do you keep saying "Who cares?" Look at how many pages this thread is. People do care. What you mean is "*I* don't care." Which is fine...but I don't think that makes this topic an unreasonable one for those who *are* interested in it.

And sorry for saying you don't like Wallace. At first, I thought that was your motivation for not wanting him discussed. I understand better now why you don't want him discussed, even if I still disagree with you.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Why do you keep saying "Who cares?" Look at how many pages this thread is. People do care. What you mean is "*I* don't care." Which is fine...but I don't think that makes this topic an unreasonable one for those who *are* interested in it.


Part of the reason why people are responding is soley because they're being baited into responding. 


When you get responses like



> our locker room is empty





> mediocre man-
> 
> Sheed hit the game winning shot in Game 5 of the playoffs last year.
> 
> He also scored a GAME HIGH 12 points in the 4th qtr of Game 7.
> 
> He has had other huge 4th qtrs in the playoffs. Those are just two.
> 
> Learn.


whereas it's implied that he should get the credit for showing up if they win, should get credit if they lose but he "shows up", and softies like Brian Grant and Sabonis are just the real reasons behind the losses.

One can be interested in Rasheed, no ones denying that. But when the whole point of the thread is to be hearing about how so and so was right ("see? he can't hit a clutch shot!" "Oh yah? game 7 of 2000 WCF's and othe huge 4th quarters!") it just gets old.


> And sorry for saying you don't like Wallace. At first, I thought that was your motivation for not wanting him discussed. I understand better now why you don't want him discussed, even if I still disagree with you.


as long as no ones using inaccurate arguments about why rasheed should've been traded, or why he shouldn't have been traded, or that it's a fact the team would've been better/worse with/without him, I don't care how many threads about him they make.

It's kinda like people who just won't let an argument go. 

Let's argue about something new for once in our lives.

sometimes I think june 18th can come quick enough.


----------



## KingSpeed

Hap- This thread is for those who WISH to discuss Sheed's play in the playoffs. YOU are clearly one of those people or you wouldn't lick on the thread and read the posts.

If you wanna talk about something else, start ANOTHER thread to that effect and stay away from this one.

It's that simple.

I know you HATE that Sheed is playing well and I know you THINK that no one cares about Sheed. But I do. And so do others. Deal with it.


----------



## Nightfly

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Hap- This thread is for those who WISH to discuss Sheed's play in the playoffs. YOU are clearly one of those people or you wouldn't lick on the thread and read the posts.
> 
> If you wanna talk about something else, start ANOTHER thread to that effect and stay away from this one.
> 
> It's that simple.
> 
> I know you HATE that Sheed is playing well and I know you THINK that no one cares about Sheed. But I do. And so do others. Deal with it.


My, my, aren't we high strung...

Hap happens to be a Moderator of the forum. He's required to look at every thread to make sure posters don't violate site guidelines. I know the mods often read threads they would normally skip over because they have to.

I can't speak entirely for Hap, but I'm pretty sure he couldn't care less how well Sheed is doing in the playoffs. Hap, If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

You sure are Black and White Speed. There is no middle ground with you.


----------



## KingSpeed

On the contrary, there IS middle ground for me. I both like Rasheed, feel we shouldn't have traded him, and STILL like the Blazers and hope they do well.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Hap- This thread is for those who WISH to discuss Sheed's play in the playoffs. YOU are clearly one of those people or you wouldn't lick on the thread and read the posts.
> 
> If you wanna talk about something else, start ANOTHER thread to that effect and stay away from this one.
> 
> It's that simple.
> 
> I know you HATE that Sheed is playing well and I know you THINK that no one cares about Sheed. But I do. And so do others. Deal with it.


I'm actually forced to read these posts, as a mod.


----------



## Nightfly

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> On the contrary, there IS middle ground for me. I both like Rasheed, feel we shouldn't have traded him, and STILL like the Blazers and hope they do well.


You say you still like the Blazers and hope they do well, but then you post something that makes it seem as though you are happy that they missed the playoffs since Sheed was traded.

From what I've seen of your posts, you are a Sheed fan first, and a Blazers fan second. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with that if it is indeed the case, but that's just how I see it.


----------



## Goldmember

Well, as soon as the Pistons get spanked by the Lakers this thread will finally die it's much overdue death.


----------



## KingSpeed

Hap- no one forces you to post

Hear- you assumptions are incorrect; in fact, I rooted for the Nets to beat the Pistons last round and wouldn't even mind if the Pacers went to the NBA Finals as I'd like to see Reggie win the title. But since Sheed IS playing well (whether I root for him or not), I find it interesting since I never DID want to trade him.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Hap- no one forces you to post


just as no one forces you to post..what the hell does that have to do with anything being discussed?


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Goldmember</b>!
> Well, as soon as the Pistons get spanked by the Lakers this thread will finally die it's much overdue death.


don't get too excited about that possibility (the thread dying) as another will pop up a few days/weeks later. Someone will make some over the top claim bashing or trumpeting Wallace, and we'll be off to the races again. 

I'm not so sure about the Laker spanking prediction though... wasn't it also your prediction that Kenyon Martin would spank Wallace so hard with physical play that he'd wimp/hang out on the perimeter only jacking up 3's? I guess thats why they play the games... we'll see. 

It's been my guess that after the Spurs, the Pistons had the best team to match up with the Lakers. The Spurs had a good shot (IMO) but the inability of their role players to hit an occational jumper combined with that Fisher miracle was too much. I see the Pistons as having both the ability to score on and somewhat defend the Lakers. I'd guess RWallace is going to be covering Shaq a lot. I'm interested to see if some of the tried and true Sheed bashers start rooting for The Big Ugly next Sunday. 

STOMP


----------



## Dan

I actually think the Pistons have the best shot of beating the Lakers. Their defense could cause the Lakers problems. The reason is, if the spurs ofense wasn't hitting, their defense wouldn't stop the lakers. If the Twolves weren't hitting their shots, their defense wouldn't stop the lakers. 

If the Pistons aren't hitting their shots? Their defense is still their bread and butter.

doesn't mean that the pistons will win the series, altho I think they'll do a lot better than some of the arrogant fans of the Lakers think.


----------



## Scout226

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> 
> Part of the reason why people are responding is soley because they're being baited into responding.
> 
> .......
> 
> whereas it's implied that he should get the credit for showing up if they win, should get credit if they lose but he "shows up", and softies like Brian Grant and Sabonis are just the real reasons behind the losses.
> 
> One can be interested in Rasheed, no ones denying that. But when the whole point of the thread is to be hearing about how so and so was right ("see? he can't hit a clutch shot!" "Oh yah? game 7 of 2000 WCF's and othe huge 4th quarters!") it just gets old.
> 
> 
> as long as no ones using inaccurate arguments about why rasheed should've been traded, or why he shouldn't have been traded, or that it's a fact the team would've been better/worse with/without him, I don't care how many threads about him they make.
> 
> It's kinda like people who just won't let an argument go.
> 
> Let's argue about something new for once in our lives.
> 
> sometimes I think june 18th can come quick enough.



I have to say, I agree 100%.. :yes: 

The Sheed Debate gets as heated as politics, religion, etc..


----------



## Scout226

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Rasheed Wallace was hardly a quick pass-through. He was a significant part of this franchise's history and always will be, whether some people like that or not. The fact that he's still active and recently traded makes him even more relevant.


But was his stay positive or negative? Sheed has put his mark on a some positives in the Blazer organization, but he's also been a black eye to the organization as well. Now that he's moved on to another town, his image has changed, while his actions(as well as others) are still haunting the Blazer organization.. 

I'm just glad Sheed didn't totally ruin his rep to the point where we couldn't get anything for him. Depending on what we can get for SAR, Sheeds' legacy may come down to his trade value we got in return..


----------



## KingSpeed

Hap- i WANT to post because I care about the subject!!!

You DON'T care about the subject and implied such by asking who DID care.

So.... I will continue to post about it and you need not. Remember YOU are the one who wants the discussion to end, not me.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Hap- i WANT to post because I care about the subject!!!
> 
> You DON'T care about the subject and implied such by asking who DID care.
> 
> So.... I will continue to post about it and you need not. Remember YOU are the one who wants the discussion to end, not me.


whether or not you continue the discussion isn't the issue. It's HOW you go about discussing it that IS the issue. 

continual bating, and egging on (by both sides) goes no where. THATS what no one cares about.


----------



## Goldmember

> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> 
> I'm not so sure about the Laker spanking prediction though... wasn't it also your prediction that Kenyon Martin would spank Wallace so hard with physical play that he'd wimp/hang out on the perimeter only jacking up 3's? I guess thats why they play the games... we'll see.
> 
> STOMP


Check the numbers chief.

Conference semifinals Pistons/Nets:

Wallace:
FG 43%
Points 11.9 
Rebounds 5.6
*Three point shooting 5-24, 20%*

Martin:
FG 46%
Points 16.7
Rebounds 9.3

I said Martin would outplay Sheed in that series and I was right.


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Goldmember</b>!
> 
> Check the numbers chief.
> 
> I said Martin would outplay Sheed in that series and I was right.


sorry chief  you don't get to change your claim after the fact. Here's what you actually said...

"_In the few times Sheed and Martin matched up, Sheed always looked passive. He doesn't like guys like Martin who play a physical game. As soon as Kmart roughs up Sheed a little bit, we'll see Sheed drift around three point line for the majority of the series._"

No doubt Martin posted the better numbers, but thats not what you initially claimed would happen that I responded to. Dispite a severe limp limiting him, Wallace played inside quite a bit and didn't "drift out" to the three point line any more then usual. In fact he averaged slightly fewer 3 pt attempts in that series then he did per game in the regular season. Conversely though they weren't three pointers, I saw more shotput style, top of the key jumpers from Kenyon then I've ever seen him attempting before (IMO for obvious reasons). Kenyon got the best of the matchup overall, but I definitely didn't see Sheed put his tail between his legs and become passive. They banged, grapled and battled hard throughout the series. I've read more then a couple articles crediting Sheed for showing a lot of guts dragging that leg around giving whatever he could.

He seems to be moving much better now, but his next challenge is guarding Shaq. I bet RW will be their primary defender on him with Ben providing weakside/doubleteam help. We'll see how he does, but I'm guessing as a team they will be somewhat effective at slowing Shaq down. I think Kobe is the Lakers only real option covering RIP, and chasing him around all those screens might wear him down somewhat on the other end. I think its more likely to be a great series then a spanking. I guess we'll see... or more accurately, ya'll will. I'm about to be disappearing into the mountains for much of the championship series for a fishing trip and then starting my yearly Cal Fish and Game stint this time on the west side of the Sierras. Anyways, enjoy...

STOMP


----------



## Goldmember

You just used a sample of what I said. Later I went on to state that it was my opinion that Martin would outplay Sheed in that series and there's no doubt the numbers back that up. 

That said, my initial point is still valid. Sheed shot 24 threes making only 5. So he shot a fair amount of threes in spite of the fact that he wasn't hitting them at a productive rate.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Goldmember</b>!
> 
> That said, my initial point is still valid. Sheed shot 24 threes making only 5. So he shot a fair amount of threes in spite of the fact that he wasn't hitting them at a productive rate.


If he shot threes at less than his normal rate as STOMP alleges, then no, your point really wasn't valid. You implied he'd be MORE prone to drifting outside because of Martin's bruising ways. Instead, he was LESS prone.

As far as Wallace being outplayed, were you saying that because you knew Wallace was injured? (I forget the timing of your comment.) If so, then it was warranted but not very insightful. If you said it before he was injured, then I'd say that it makes the whole comparison invalid. Wallace on one leg isn't likely to play anywhere near his best.


----------



## KingSpeed

*OT: Rasheed in Finals.*

It's one thing to have a thread about Rasheed in the PLAYOFFS, but now he's in the NBA FINALS.

Interesting. Both the Pistons and Blazers have been waiting to return to the NBA Finals since 1990. We had Sheed during his growing years and now that he's grown up and is ready to lead a team to the NBA Finals, we trade him to the Pistons and THEY go to the NBA Finals for the first time in 14 years instead of us.

Sigh. We just weren't patient enough. Ron Artest throws dirty elbows. Rasheed keeps his cool. You hardly ever see Sheed get ejected from a game or even pick up a technical. He guarantees a playoff victory and delivers. He makes big defensive plays, gets the putback dunk to lift the Pistons to the NBA Finals.


----------



## Dan

this is all nice and dandy and all..but its not like we "gave" up on Rasheed. He had been here for almost 8 full seasons. 

It was time to move on. The team wasn't going to improve with him being the way he was. 

Could the team have improved had he warmed himself up to the city a little more? Yah. Could the city have easily liked him a lot more? I'm sure of it. But *HE* decided not to warm to US the fans because of his irrational hatred of the local media. There are other ways to warm up to us fans.


----------



## KingSpeed

He did warm up to the fans. Remember after we beat the Bulls in OT? They asked him in front of the crowd if he wanted to stay in Portland and he said yes and everyone cheered. That was a fun night. What was the problem? Why is 8 years "time to move on"? What's wrong with keeping him as a legit franchise player. He has probably 8 more effective years in him. Why pay him to mature and get playoff experience and learn valuable lessons and then trade him away when he's finally a veteran who could help this team win the whole thing?


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> He did warm up to the fans. Remember after we beat the Bulls in OT? They asked him in front of the crowd if he wanted to stay in Portland and he said yes and everyone cheered.


hm..lets see. In front of the home crowd, being asked by the blazers radio guys if he wants to play in Portland, he answers yes (actually, iirc, he was vague). 

wow. my heart strings are tugging. (granted, I didn't care, I'm just talking about people who wanted to love him, but didn't get a chance to).


> That was a fun night. What was the problem? Why is 8 years "time to move on"? What's wrong with keeping him as a legit franchise player.


well, 8 years is enough because it's not like after his 8th year in Portland, things were going to change. He wasn't going to stop being the scape goat by some fans. He wasn't going to all the sudden lead us to greatness. He wasn't the "franchise player". he's not in Detroit, and he wouldn't have been in Portland. To some people, that was why they wanted to move on. For me, I liked him as the 2nd/3rd banana. 



> He has probably 8 more effective years in him. Why pay him to mature and get playoff experience and learn valuable lessons and then trade him away when he's finally a veteran who could help this team win the whole thing?


8 more years of "effective" play isn't the issue either. Drexler had what, 4 more years of good play, but it was his time to go. 

The thing is, you're going under the assumption he was going to re-sign with Portland. Thats an unknown, and probably unlikely. Also, Saint Rasheed wasn't someone that a lot of fans were "proud" of having on the team. Doesn't make the scapegoating right, it's just a fact of things. 

Also, there seems to be a different feeling about the team now, from fans. Oh sure, the Wallace fans will all say that they don't believe that, but it's true. While the attendance #'s didn't improve after he was traded, thats not the barometer of whether or not the team is "fixed". 

This is a long term fix, and fans aren't going to come back quick and happy just because someone is gone.


----------



## cimalee

I hope sheed shaves before the game on sunday


----------



## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>cimalee</b>!
> I hope sheed shaves before the game on sunday


And would it kill him to wear some pantyhose occasionally, and get rid of that _awful_ handbag? And don't get me started on the eyeshadow. How he ever expects to get that nice Mr. Stern to give him a ring, looking the way he does, is just beyond me.

barfo


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Goldmember</b>!
> You just used a sample of what I said. Later I went on to state that it was my opinion that Martin would outplay Sheed in that series and there's no doubt the numbers back that up.
> 
> That said, my initial point is still valid. Sheed shot 24 threes making only 5. So he shot a fair amount of threes in spite of the fact that he wasn't hitting them at a productive rate.


Sure I just used a sample of your prediction, I left off your intro because it didn't make much sense without the posts prior. You aren't expecting me to take into account every single post you've made when I respond to what you've stated are you? Here is your full post with what I left off of my "sample" in bold...

*I will have to agree with Nash on this one.*_ In the few times Sheed and Martin matched up, Sheed always looked passive. He doesn't like guys like Martin who play a physical game. As soon as Kmart roughs up Sheed a little bit, we'll see Sheed drift around three point line for the majority of the series._ 

here's the thread...

http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=92297&forumid=14

Your initial post and prediction of Rasheed wimping out didn't happen, and it looks like your prediction of a Laker spanking is unlikely as well. 

STOMP


----------



## Goldmember

Funny how you waited until after Detroit won that first game before you replied. How cowardly. I'll stick to my prediction that LA beats Detroit in 5. 

As for Sheed, Kmart outplayed him and Sheed shot a bunch of threes without making them. That's just how I thought that series would go. If you don't view it that way fine.


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Goldmember</b>!
> Funny how you waited until after Detroit won that first game before you replied. How cowardly. I'll stick to my prediction that LA beats Detroit in 5.
> 
> As for Sheed, Kmart outplayed him and Sheed shot a bunch of threes without making them. That's just how I thought that series would go. If you don't view it that way fine.


Cowardly :laugh: seriously you're kidding right? If you're not, you aren't paying attention to when I posted that this series wouldn't be the spanking you predicted but more likely a great series. According to the date on the post, I made my prediction/comment 5 days *before* the series started. 

I also stated in the same post I was going fishing and then would be largely out of touch with my yearly gig in the back country for Cal Fish and Game. I'm back from my trip on the Deschutes and heading down south tomorrow. If I don't respond to your next round of cheap insults right away don't assume it's because I'm afraid of your scary typing skills. 

They say we reveal our true character in trying times, so its sort of sad to see someone who won't stand by their posted claims and admit when they were wrong in a matter as minor as a prediction on a basketball chatsite. Here watch I'll do it... I was wrong in predicting that Sheed would be the primary guy guarding Shaq this series as he barely put in any time on him in tonight's game. See how easy that was?

Your prediction that Sheed would back down to Kenyon didn't happen, and now you're trying to spin that we should ignore that one but pay attantion to some other prediction you made that no one contested. As others have pointed out that one is pretty much invalid as Wallace was clearly limited by his injury.

Your latest was that LA would quickly spank Detroit, and now you've got them winning in 5 . After watching tonights game I feel pretty safe in my prediction that its going to be a great series. There are some good matchups and some huge mismatches going both ways in this series, but the refs seemed to be letting both teams bang for the most part. I bet it goes 7, and feel it could go either way. I think a real winner could be the fan who just likes to see good ball and isn't bent out of shape rooting against Sheed, Shaq, Kobe, Larry Brown, or whoever.

STOMP


----------



## Goldmember

My prediction for the series has always been LA in 5. Check the prediction thread. 

Bringing up my post from several weeks ago to insult my knowledge of the game (when I wasn't even wrong in the first place) is just plain anal. Whether Sheed "backed down" from Martin is a judgement call. With solid numbers it was proven that Martin outplayed Sheed in that series, and that was my main point all along. I clearly summed that up within the context of that thread. So sorry, I'm not going to admit I was wrong. 

Look, if LA doesn't win the finals in five, I'll admit I was wrong. I'm sure you wont forget to bring it up if that happens. You probably already have my post stored on your hard drive, just itching to bring up two weeks from now. :laugh:


----------



## jackiejackal

I am wondering how Rasheed fans view 
his performance in the playoffs thus far.

I believe he was 5 for 14 last night and pretty much non de facto ..
comments?


----------



## KingSpeed

Did you WATCH the game????

Ummm.... Sheed personally led the Pistons back into that game. The Pistons were out of it and then Sheed hit three shots in a row and then became their playmaker, setting up everyone on the team for shots as they rallied back to take the lead.

And in Game 1, Sheed hit threes to open both halves and was incredibly efficient, scoring 14 pts on 4 shot attempts.

The Pistons are 33-12 with Sheed. They were 34-23 without him.

 DO NOT USE TERMS LIKE "HATER" OR "SUCK ON IT, HATER" IN THIS OR ANY OTHER POST EVER AGAIN.


----------



## Blazerfan024

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> I am wondering how Rasheed fans view
> his performance in the playoffs thus far.
> 
> I believe he was 5 for 14 last night and pretty much non de facto ..
> comments?


how many did damon score last night or Zach ?

Oh thats right we lottery bound...


----------



## Terrible

Phil Jackson made a huge mistake leaving crippled Karl on Sheed. Sheed knew Karl was hurt and took massive advantage of it. I don't think Sheed will see Karl in game 3, my thought is Walton or Shaq or a combo of both.


----------



## jackiejackal

I did not see the post you edited...
but if Nathan said something like that to me..
what you have in red in bold letters..

I am shocked you don't suspend him..
that is way over the line in my opinion..
what the heck does a person have to do here to get suspended???


you can use filthy personal attacks ???
using profanity and filth???

I demand an explanation on that one.


----------



## Terrible

Jackie, you can get suspended around here!


----------



## jackiejackal

if he indeed did say that to me..
i demand an explanation why he is not suspended.


----------



## Terrible

It's all about the mods Jackie, all about the mods!


----------



## Sean

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> if he indeed did say that to me..
> i demand an explanation why he is not suspended.


he's on a 3 day vacation now.


----------



## Scout226

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> The Pistons are 33-12 with Sheed. They were 34-23 without him.



The Pistons are also 33-12 with Mike James, and were 34-23 without him.:yes:


----------



## Gym Rat

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> if he indeed did say that to me..
> i demand an explanation why he is not suspended.


Good grief Jackie - give the system time to work. He is suspended for three days. In the future you may want to report the post and give us time to take care of this.


----------



## jackiejackal

Well Gym Rat..
the way things go overboard here in some
folks direction,I really had no idea anything would be done.

Primarily I just wanted an answer..
I didn't realize everybody was on vacation. Three days doesn't seem adequate in my opinion.
There are some folks no longer here that did far less.

Thank you for the response.


----------



## jackiejackal

an interesting article on Rasheed.

note !
this is before game 3..
wonder what his next article will say.



http://www.detnews.com/2004/pistons/0406/10/f01-179795.htm


----------



## B_&_B

I'm not a fan of Rasheed... but I'll give him credit when its due, he played great last night, and hit a couple of big shots at the end of the game, something he didnt do very often here in Portland... GO PISTONS!!! I love watching the Lakers lose!!!


----------



## KingSpeed

Sheed hit SEVERAL big shots for the Blazers. What are you talking about? He hit game winners against the Lakers. He hit big shots to ice games against the Lakers. He has hit the game winner to beat the Mavs on the road to avoid elimination from the playoffs. Sheed did this for us. Heck, he had.... what.... 26 pts (12 in 4th qtr), 15 rebs, 4 blks in a win at Sacramento for us this year?


----------



## KingSpeed

> Originally posted by <b>Goldmember</b>!
> Well, as soon as the Pistons get spanked by the Lakers this thread will finally die it's much overdue death.


How is that spanking going, Goldmember?


----------



## B_&_B

He didnt do it on a consistent basis... especially when he was supposed to be our "go to" guy..... anyways, who cares, I dont want to turn this into a debate about Rasheed, thats getting old.


----------



## KingSpeed

Does Kobe suck too, then? He isn't delivering on a consistent basis either. How bout Shaq? 14 one night, 36 the next. Lakers can't rely on him, can they? Please.


----------



## Scout226

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Does Kobe suck too, then? He isn't delivering on a consistent basis either. How bout Shaq? 14 one night, 36 the next. Lakers can't rely on him, can they? Please.



I think that's a little far fetched. Kobe and Shaq deliver on a consistant basis. There is no question about that. 

If you're trying to argue that Sheed is as consistant as they are, please show some facts. I'm glad Sheed had a great game last night and I commend him, but he should be having more games like that. He just chooses not to.


----------



## Scout226

*Sheed Misunderstood?*

Well, was that the problem in Portland? He's just misunderstood? Ok, I'm not trying to bag or "hate" on Sheed here. He had a great game last night, and I'm glad he took it to the Lakers and I hope he does it again tomorrow night. But I just about fell out of my chair with the commentators saying he's just misunderstood, and then mentioning Brown said, "he's the most misunderstood player in the NBA".. Then added he just wants to win. So, was Rodman just misunderstood? Or any other "bad boy" just misunderstood? 

Personally, I think it's just a cop out.


PS-I know I posted this in another thread, but figure it fits better here..


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Does Kobe suck too, then? He isn't delivering on a consistent basis either. How bout Shaq? 14 one night, 36 the next. Lakers can't rely on him, can they? Please.


hm...Shaq is averaging 28 points and 11.5 rebounds in the finals, and has 1 sub-par game.

Sheed is averaging 13.5 and 9.5 and has had really 1 great game in the finals. Which came after a game where he had 3 points (in a game where the Pistons lead from the get-go, and his scoring wasn't needed).

Kobe is just showing that all the talk about him being "better than Jordan" is laughable. How many big games did Jordan not show up for? Kobe has had a dissapointing series once it left LA.

The difference between Rasheed's great game last night, and the other 3 games, and Shaqs monster game last night (and 2 great games and 1 sub-par game) is that Shaq is averaging more ppg than his regular season stats. 

However, thats not necessarily the end all be all of who's being more important. Sheed doesn't need to score 6+ ppg in the finals (vs his regular season stats) to be effective. 

I'm not sure if this makes Sheed a "superstar", or just an effective role player, doing exactly what his team needs for him to win.


----------



## B_&_B

I agree with ya Scout... all the Blazer fans who still pull for Sheed amaze me. Sheed and B.Whitsitt are the biggest reasons the Blazer franchise went down hill... everybody holds Bob accountable, but not Sheed, it makes no sense.


----------



## B_&_B

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> Kobe is just showing that all the talk about him being "better than Jordan" is laughable. How many big games did Jordan not show up for? Kobe has had a dissapointing series once it left LA.


NO DOUBT!!!! Jordan never scored less than 22 points in the playoffs during his career.


----------



## KingSpeed

*OT: Sheed has now won 5 of his last 6 games against the Lakers.*

This guy made a decision that he wasn't gonna lose to the Lakers anymore. It's started last season in Portland when he canned a three to beat the Lakers. If Kobe didn't can a similarly clutch three in Game 2 of the NBA Finals, Sheed would be 6-0.

Also, SHeed is 11-4 vs Malone in the playoffs.


----------



## B_&_B

If we ignore NathanLane and his Sheed loving posts, maybe he'll go away.


----------



## jackiejackal

Sheed looks very nice on a team that has 
players better than him.

Portland was depending on him to be the best player.

That's why I said on an earlier post that it
looks like he has truly found a home.

He has had a so so series,but can shine 
when he decides to.. and he can shine !

NBA.com tv has extensive interviews after
the games and Sheed was on for quite a while.

Two of the guys kept pressing Sheed as to why he didn't play in the post more.... they thought he looks so much better there. Then they brought up Portland. 
He said he "always has played in the low post his entire basketball life,but Portland made him play the 3"


When he plays low post,he practically is
unstoppable..guess they couldn't get that through to him here.
The interviewers asked him many really good questions.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> 
> He said he "always has played in the low post his entire basketball life,but "Portland made him play the 3"


hm...when did Rasheed shoot all those 3 pointers, when the Blazers made him play the 3 when Bonzi was the SF, or when Pippen was?


----------



## B_&_B

ha ha... when all else fails, blame it on Portland... of course he wont shoulder any of the responsibility, its never his fault.

I do like that commercial with Sheed and his tatoos.


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Scout226</b>!
> 
> I think that's a little far fetched. Kobe and Shaq deliver on a consistant basis. There is no question about that.
> 
> If you're trying to argue that Sheed is as consistant as they are, please show some facts. I'm glad Sheed had a great game last night and I commend him, but * he should be having more games like that. He just chooses not to.*


Care to offer any facts to back up that opinion? I don't feel he is capable of doing much more offensively then his averages unless he forces the action with bad shots out of the flow, and I'm sure it hasn't been his choise to suffer from plantar fasciitus or keep picking up quick fouls in the first halves of this series. In general he doesn't enjoy a size advantage over most guys he goes up against, and his off the dribble skills are poor IMO. He does benefit by being the primary guy on the block in Detroit and having better outside threats then he had in Portland where he was the outside threat by default. He has consistently enjoyed a matchup advantage vs LA over the years though. He should have his way when he's being guarded by Slava and Luke. 

Defensively is where he's best IMO. To my eyes anyways he's consistently chosen to give his all on that end whoever he's been asked to guard.

STOMP


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>JohnnyCash</b>!
> ha ha... when all else fails, blame it on Portland... of course he wont shoulder any of the responsibility, its never his fault.


I'm not sure whats funny about this. Why would it be Sheed's fault for playing where the coach wanted him to play? With the mix of talent that was assembled in Portland, I agreed with Mo putting him on the outside. Mo stated several times thats where he wanted him, and usually the response to those quotes from the Wallace bashing contingent was that he was covering for him choosing to float to the perimeter. Why is it so hard to accept that in Portland they wanted him outside to stretch the D?

STOMP


----------



## Scout226

> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> 
> 
> Care to offer any facts to back up that opinion? I don't feel he is capable of doing much more offensively then his averages unless he forces the action with bad shots out of the flow, and I'm sure it hasn't been his choise to suffer from plantar fasciitus or keep picking up quick fouls in the first halves of this series. In general he doesn't enjoy a size advantage over most guys he goes up against, and his off the dribble skills are poor IMO. He does benefit by being the primary guy on the block in Detroit and having better outside threats then he had in Portland where he was the outside threat by default. He has consistently enjoyed a matchup advantage vs LA over the years though. He should have his way when he's being guarded by Slava and Luke.
> 
> Defensively is where he's best IMO. To my eyes anyways he's consistently chosen to give his all on that end whoever he's been asked to guard.
> STOMP


Facts? Well, I'm sure I won't find a quote from Sheed saying he slacks off in games, or he loses focus, but after watching games over the years, I thought it was easy to spot that he doesn't give it his all or bring his game every night. Or even on a consistant basis. 

I agree with you that defensively he's good, and he's consistant on that end of the floor. I just disagree with you on the offensive end. He has the skills to take over more games than he does, but I figure he choses not to or loses interest. Maybe it's the offseason where he never trains. I don't know.

I think that's where the split came with Sheed fans. A lot of people think he's capable of a lot more.


----------



## jackiejackal

here is a nice article on Sheed :

http://www.oregonlive.com/sportsfla...s0013_BC_BKN--NBAFinals-Piston&&sports&nba_e1


----------



## Scout226

> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not sure whats funny about this. Why would it be Sheed's fault for playing where the coach wanted him to play?



I missed the interview last night after the game.. But if Sheed blames the Blazers for playing on the perimeter, I too would find it funny. I think the reason it's funny is because before this year, Sheed was playing PF in the low post, but chose to put up more and more outside shots. The switch by Mo to move Sheed to SF was this year. So blaming the Blazers for him playing outside for half a season, when he's been with them for over 7 yrs is kind of funny. But, I guess he could just be misunderstood.

In the end, I'm glad he's happy in detroit, and I wish the Pistons well in destroying the lakers. I just don't buy the cop out of being misunderstood.


----------



## cimalee

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> here is a nice article on Sheed :
> 
> http://www.oregonlive.com/sportsfla...s0013_BC_BKN--NBAFinals-Piston&&sports&nba_e1






Rasheed must stay with the pistons , I knew if sheed would get traded he would be a major part of helping a team get a title


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Scout226</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I missed the interview last night after the game.. But if Sheed blames the Blazers for playing on the perimeter, I too would find it funny. I think the reason it's funny is because before this year, Sheed was playing PF in the low post, but chose to put up more and more outside shots. The switch by Mo to move Sheed to SF was this year. So blaming the Blazers for him playing outside for half a season, when he's been with them for over 7 yrs is kind of funny. But, I guess he could just be misunderstood.


 I'm not sure where you picked up the opinion that he was down on the block prior to this year as his 3 point attempts per game were down this year in Portland. 

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3006/career

He had been Mo's primary outside threat for 3 years, and for those years Mo has stated that thats where he wanted him. Ideally you only have 1 guy down on the block at a time for spacing concerns, and the Blazer roster was made up of a lot of guys who couldn't play effectively elsewhere. Should Mo have had Dale, Ruben, or Zach out on the arc? Should Bonzi have been placed in the corner to launch more of his knuckleballs? Regardless of who he was guarding or what position was listed next to his name, his offensive role in Portland the last few years was as a deep threat and that was by the coach's choise not his.

STOMP


----------



## Blazerfan024

> Originally posted by <b>Scout226</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I missed the interview last night after the game.. But if Sheed blames the Blazers for playing on the perimeter, I too would find it funny. I think the reason it's funny is because before this year, Sheed was playing PF in the low post, but chose to put up more and more outside shots. The switch by Mo to move Sheed to SF was this year. So blaming the Blazers for him playing outside for half a season, when he's been with them for over 7 yrs is kind of funny. But, I guess he could just be misunderstood.
> 
> In the end, I'm glad he's happy in detroit, and I wish the Pistons well in destroying the lakers. I just don't buy the cop out of being misunderstood.


You're saying sheed being misunderstood is a cop out???

How bout trying to blame Rasheed for everything in Portland is a cop out, he has always been the scapegoat when he was here. 

Now that sheed is gone if you read some of the past posts during the season all the blame started to go to Zach. Its like some fans just want someone to blame.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>Blazerfan024</b>!
> 
> 
> You're saying sheed being misunderstood is a cop out???
> 
> How bout trying to blame Rasheed for everything in Portland is a cop out, he has always been the scapegoat when he was here.
> 
> Now that sheed is gone if you read some of the past posts during the season all the blame started to go to Zach. Its like some fans just want someone to blame.


exactly. Some fans always need a scapegoat.

Damon, Bonzi, Sheed...and now some turned on Zach. 

Saying we should keep SAR over him, because SAR was such a great guy, and his stats were so great.

Such a great guy that he's basically demanding a trade already.

People just like to pick someone to blame. Even if this team was full of choir boys..they'd pick on the coach. Even if the team was full of choir boys and a great coach, they'd pick on someone because the team wasn't as good. 

It's easier to pick a target, than to address the real problems. Just as it's easier to jump the gun on the trade as tho things were supposed to improve over night.


----------



## Scout226

> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not sure where you picked up the opinion that he was down on the block prior to this year as his 3 point attempts per game were down this year in Portland.
> 
> http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3006/career
> 
> He had been Mo's primary outside threat for 3 years, and for those years Mo has stated that thats where he wanted him. Ideally you only have 1 guy down on the block at a time for spacing concerns, and the Blazer roster was made up of a lot of guys who couldn't play effectively elsewhere. Should Mo have had Dale, Ruben, or Zach out on the arc? Should Bonzi have been placed in the corner to launch more of his knuckleballs? Regardless of who he was guarding or what position was listed next to his name, his offensive role in Portland the last few years was as a deep threat and that was by the coach's choise not his.
> 
> STOMP


That is my point. He wasn't down on the block a lot of the times when he should have. I guess I've missed the comments by Mo saying he wanted Sheed out on the perimeter. Sheed has gotten better with his outside shot, but I never read that's where they wanted him instead of the block.

With regards to DD, Ruben, and ZBO. DD is no offensive threat, so he should be making room for Sheed in the block. Ruben is NO offesive threat. He's only going to get garbage buckets. ZBO didn't play the same time Sheed did until this year, so that isn't an issue.

If Mo stated he wanted Sheed on the perimeter as a deep threat and not playing the post(which is one of his strengths) and getting rebounds, then my bad. I honestly never read that anywhere. Also, if that's true, then Mo should be fired because that is ridiculous..


----------



## Scout226

> Originally posted by <b>Blazerfan024</b>!
> 
> 
> You're saying sheed being misunderstood is a cop out???
> 
> How bout trying to blame Rasheed for everything in Portland is a cop out, he has always been the scapegoat when he was here.


Yes, that is what I'm saying. It's a cop out for Sheed if he uses that excuse, and a cop out for Brown and the commentators last night.

I personally didn't blame Sheed for EVERYTHING in Portland. Was he part of the problem? Yes(JMO), but I don't blame him for everything.


----------



## Scout226

> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> <b>He had been Mo's primary outside threat for 3 years, and for those years Mo has stated that thats where he wanted him</b>. Ideally you only have 1 guy down on the block at a time for spacing concerns, and the Blazer roster was made up of a lot of guys who couldn't play effectively elsewhere. Should Mo have had Dale, Ruben, or Zach out on the arc? Should Bonzi have been placed in the corner to launch more of his knuckleballs? Regardless of who he was guarding or what position was listed next to his name, his offensive role in Portland the last few years was as a deep threat and that was by the coach's choise not his.
> 
> STOMP


First off, I thought I must have missed a few articles since I don't live in the Portland area. But after asking a few others and looking into it, I think you're wrong. Do you have any links to Mo or the Blazers management saying they wanted Sheed on the perimeter as an outside threat?


----------



## Blazerfan024

> Originally posted by <b>Scout226</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, that is what I'm saying. It's a cop out for Sheed if he uses that excuse, and a cop out for Brown and the commentators last night.
> 
> I personally didn't blame Sheed for EVERYTHING in Portland. Was he part of the problem? Yes(JMO), but I don't blame him for everything.



Sorry I wasnt trying to make it seem that u personally blame him for everything, but Rasheed is doing the same things over in detroit (Except talking to media)that he did here but he is actually being appreciated for it instead of getting criticism.

So many people were so quick to jump at him if he didnt score 30 points , but fail to forget he shut his man down and was causing problems in the lane for the other team all night and also opening up the lane for zach and if we would have had shooting would have opened the perimeter .

He plays with passion and fire, im sorry but I like that type of player he may have got stupid T's but it usually fired up the squad and gave our guys a little more motivation but since he heard the criticism about his T's, the last 2 seasons he has done a 180 but yet is still criticised.

In portland he could have done no right, even if he did avg. 30 pts and 12rbs. It would have been something else some fans would have faulted on him.


----------



## Scout226

> Originally posted by <b>Blazerfan024</b>!
> Sorry I wasnt trying to make it seem that u personally blame him for everything, but Rasheed is doing the same things over in detroit (Except talking to media)that he did here but he is actually being appreciated for it instead of getting criticism.


That's fine. I didn't take it personal. I've just heard so many people(mostly on another board) say it was "our fault"(fans) and the media who ran Sheed out. Sheed is doing the same things in Detriot as he was doing in Portland this year. I even think he's talking to the media in Detroit. He's even got a commercial. Now that's irritating. I mean I'm happy for him, but why couldn't Nike give him the commercial when he was a Blazer. I think that would have helped the Blazers image. It's strange timing.



> He plays with passion and fire, im sorry but I like that type of player he may have got stupid T's but it usually fired up the squad and gave our guys a little more motivation but since he heard the criticism about his T's, the last 2 seasons he has done a 180 but yet is still criticised.
> 
> In portland he could have done no right, even if he did avg. 30 pts and 12rbs. It would have been something else some fans would have faulted on him.


Damn.. I would have loved it if he put up 30/12..  

I know what you mean, some wouldn't be happy. I also like a player who plays with passion and fire. I think ZBO plays the same way. I fell off the Sheed supporting wagon when he would get lost in games and appear to not be into it, going to the perimeter and going away from his strength in the post, and also his lack of leadership. I know everyone isn't a born leader, but as a veteran on the team, he should have carried himself like that. From Pippens comments and some other players, I think Sheed was not the best influence on the team and led other younger players down the same path.

In the end, Sheed is a great fit in Detroit, but he wasn't a good fit here. I think Detroit has a solid work ethic and leadership there, and that will rub off on him.


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Scout226</b>!
> 
> First off, I thought I must have missed a few articles since I don't live in the Portland area. But after asking a few others and looking into it, I think you're wrong. Do you have any links to Mo or the Blazers management saying they wanted Sheed on the perimeter as an outside threat?


The quotes I heard and read were all from Mo, but I don't save random links from months/years back to my hard drive... does anyone? Trust me or not, I've heard and read exactly that more then a couple times and linked them right here at the time they were made. 

Why would Mo be for a strategy you label as ridiculous and worthy of a pink slip? Very simple, because when he did send Wallace to the post, the D would always collapse a doubleteam on him without fear of the Blazer's outside shooters. Damon and DA were their other best threats, and we saw how effective they were this year in spades. Even worse was having sub 30% 3 point shooters PIP and Bonzi launch. Rube doesn't even pretend to have a jumper.

It seemed to me that Wallace was moved outside when Bonzi took Steve Smith's starting spot. At the same time Sabas was moved from the high post to the bench, and Dale took over on the low block leaving Wallace to the high post to set screens and launch as the clock wound down. Certainly Sabas and Smith were superior at spreading the court then Wells and Davis right? Now with Billups, RIP, Hunter, and Prince as teammates who can fill it up from the outside, Wallace is able to go against single coverage on the block. If the D doubles him, he kicks it out to guys who can capitalize. 

STOMP


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Scout226</b>!
> 
> I agree with you that defensively he's good, and he's consistant on that end of the floor. I just disagree with you on the offensive end. He has the skills to take over more games than he does, but I figure he choses not to or loses interest. Maybe it's the offseason where he never trains. I don't know.


Never trains? Do you really know what his offseasons are like, or you basing this on JQuick relaying that he doesn't lift weights with the team and him not being ripped? For what it's worth, I've heard interviews with Chicago press guys (Skip Bayless and others) relaying that MJ rarely lifted weights either and prefered to get in shape just by playing ball. Also in past seasons (specifically 2 and 3 years ago) Wallace was reportedly battling hamstring and knee problems according to Jeff Robertson (sp?) of Hoopsworld. The cure for those types of injuries is rest. Last offseason he was healthy and was reportedly at various big man camps. I read about those offseason workouts right here. He sure seemed in great shape from the get go this year to me. I'd guess (I don't know) being injury free had a lot to do with that.

STOMP


----------



## Scout226

> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> 
> 
> Never trains? Do you really know what his offseasons are like, or you basing this on JQuick relaying that he doesn't lift weights with the team and him not being ripped? For what it's worth, I've heard interviews with Chicago press guys (Skip Bayless and others) relaying that MJ rarely lifted weights either and prefered to get in shape just by playing ball. Also in past seasons (specifically 2 and 3 years ago) Wallace was reportedly battling hamstring and knee problems according to Jeff Robertson (sp?) of Hoopsworld. The cure for those types of injuries is rest. Last offseason he was healthy and was reportedly at various big man camps. I read about those offseason workouts right here. He sure seemed in great shape from the get go this year to me. I'd guess (I don't know) being injury free had a lot to do with that.
> 
> STOMP


Well, since I live in Laker territory, I miss out on all the local stuff. I take JQ with a grain of salt, but base my opinion on various articles online and other fans who do live in the Portland area. I remember one report saying he has incentives to work out in the offseason. He either gets fined or forgoes the salary, can't remember which right now.

With regards to MJ, his play speaks for himself. Sheeds doesn't, IMO..


Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Sheed is happy in Detroit and is a positive for their team. His time in Portland came to an end, and the reason for that was Sheed. Not that he was misunderstood, or what ever anyone wants to blame it on. He's a great role player and that's about it. He'll have a big game here and there, but I just can't buy into the fact that people say he is a super star, leader, etc.


----------



## KingSpeed

Jackie- who on the Pistons is better than Sheed? Sheed does it ALL. And you can't look at stats to judge it, but if you must...

consider that in the biggest game of the Pistons' season, Sheed led the Pistons in scoring, rebounding, blocks, and steals.


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Scout226</b>!
> He's a great role player and that's about it. He'll have a big game here and there, but I just can't buy into the fact that people say he is a super star, leader, etc.


I think he's somewhere between a great role player and super star, but really... whatever, it seems that you and I are more in agreement on him then anything else, and that other stuff is just labeling. I don't think he's great enough to transform a team of losers into world champs, but I think he's a real quality big to have on a team.



> I take JQ with a grain of salt


If those are watermelon sized grains, me too  I also live away from Portland, though I'm more in neutral territory here in the Bay Area as people only seem to care about football. I get most of my Blazer fix online (usually linked from here), and from my dish. On clear nights I get radio feeds of the game all the way from Eugene too.

STOMP


----------



## jackiejackal

who's better than Sheed on that team??

Tayshaun and Rip are..
Sheed has a breakout game...finally.

Rip and Prince are the stars on that team..
For sure.


----------



## jackiejackal

ohhhh
and let's not forget Chauncey ..
these guys deliver night in and night out.


----------



## jackiejackal

here is a lovely story on Tayshaun

http://cbs.sportsline.com/nba/story/7421516


----------



## KingSpeed

Sheed delivers every night as well. He just happened to DOMINATE last night, but he delivers every night. Prince is NOT better than SHeed. PLEASE. What evidence suggests that?


----------



## Goldmember

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> 
> 
> How is that spanking going, Goldmember?


Not as I had expected obviously. The Lakers were on a roll, and I'm suprised the series going like this. I still don't think they are DOA though. There's a lot of pride and proven players on that team. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy watching the Lakeshow go down in flames. 

But since you're calling people out, let's be real here Nathan. You've been wrong many times. You throw around these wild predictions all the time that never pan out.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> who's better than Sheed on that team??
> 
> Tayshaun and Rip are..
> Sheed has a breakout game...finally.
> 
> Rip and Prince are the stars on that team..
> For sure.


Hamilton has been better for the Pistons in the playoffs, and (along with Ben Wallace, because of his rebounding and defense) is the closest thing the Pistons have to a star on the team.

Teyshaun Prince is nowhere near as good as Rasheed, though. Prince's biggest contributions have come on the defensive end: he's only averaging 9.6 ppg in the Finals. Rasheed's had a big offensive game (most recently, with 26 points) and an incredibly efficient one (14 points on 4 FG attempts in game 1).

Throw in Rasheed's normal very good defense and I think that Wallace has clearly shown himself to be a better player than Prince this series, which is consistent with their respective careers to date.

Ed O.


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> who's better than Sheed on that team??
> 
> Tayshaun and Rip are..
> Sheed has a breakout game...finally.
> 
> Rip and Prince are the stars on that team..
> For sure.


Well it's not the first time I disagree with you JJ. I happen to think that all their starters have about the same value/effect on their success. IMO they are a very well balanced team where together they are better then their individual parts. A case could be made that any one of their starters is their best or worst IMO, though if they close it out tonight I'd guess that Chauncey is named the MVP of the finals. 

They seem to be a true team thats about W's not stats. I love watching them get after it on D.

STOMP


----------



## jackiejackal

well apparentlly Detroit agrees with me

http://info.detnews.com/poll/result.cfm?topic=Finals_MVP&end


----------



## jackiejackal

I love it that Rasheed fans look to his one 
big game and use it as the stats to debate with...
cracks me up.

I still say this.

Rip
Tayshaun
Chauncey are better players.

You know why??

Because they show up game after game.
Bigger the game???
Bigger they show up.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> Rip
> Tayshaun
> Chauncey are better players.
> 
> You know why??
> 
> Because they show up game after game.
> Bigger the game???
> Bigger they show up.


Billups had a combined 17 points (on 4-20 shooting) in games 6 and 7 combined against Indiana.

Prince had a combined 16 points in games 5-7 against the Pacers, and I think those were all pretty big games.

Hamilton shot 15-41 in the first two games of the Finals, which were pretty big games.

Each of these guys has been very good in some big games, no doubt. With the possible exception of Hamilton, though, I don't see the consistency you ascribe to each of these guys.

Ed O.


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> well apparentlly Detroit agrees with me
> 
> http://info.detnews.com/poll/result.cfm?topic=Finals_MVP&end


Actually they are agreeing with me too, right JJ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't I just post that Chauncey would likely be awarded the MVP of the finals and the poll you linked asked the question... _Who has been the most valuable player in the NBA Finals?_

Who is Detroit's most valuble player is a different question IMO. Matchups and injuries can play a role in the here and now, but IMO this Detroit squad is a true team with equal parts.

STOMP


----------



## jackiejackal

you da man stomp !
yes you did.

Chauncey is absolutely fabulous.


----------



## jackiejackal

well tonight Rasheed has two stupid fouls ,one basket ...

and it's the 3rd quarter...

Guess even tho it's a big game,he took the night off Nathan???

That's my point with Rasheed...
bring up one big game..
I look at alot more than one big game.

The others are much more vauable and steady .
That's my definition of a better player.

stupid stupid fouls...4 and it's the 3rd quarter.


----------



## Target

Anyone bring a fork?


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> you da man stomp !
> yes you did.
> 
> Chauncey is absolutely fabulous.


I've been wrong about plenty of things over time, but I appreciate the occational credit when I'm not. As much as I've enjoyed watching these finals, I'll feel more like da man when the Governator signs da freaking budget and allows me to get out in the field for my yearly Fish and Game stint. I've been hung up in SF with little to do but play for a week plus now and it's well past time for me to get back to having a purpose. 

Anyhoo, thank you again Jackie. *D*etroit has been playing the style of team ball I enjoy watching most. Props to you too 

STOMP


----------



## Target

Cue Aretha.


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Target</b>!
> Cue Aretha.


:laugh:


----------



## jackiejackal

do you want some toast with your fork???
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## jackiejackal

Rasheed on NBA TV :

"I don't think about the loss in game 7 anymore."
when asked if this win erases the pain of the loss in Portland
2000 season.

Wow..really?
I will never forget that game as long as I draw breath.
Portland maybe will never get that close again.

He never thinks about it at all??
That sounds hard to understand.

But if I remember correctly,Rasheed was yuking it up laughing 
when interviewed,so maybe it doesn't bother him.
Not to beat a dead horse,but that was my #1 thing about him
that he never seemed to look like it bothered him to lose some mighty big games.


----------



## knickerbocker2k2

He said ANYMORE. It's in the past. You shouldn't keep thinking about it. It's time to move on.


----------



## jackiejackal

He has never indicated in any way ever any appreciation to the 
Portland fans..
EVER..


----------



## KingSpeed

*OT: Kobe's guarantee is worthless. Sheed's guarantee is money....*

....and other thoughts:

The Lakers have ZERO heart. They FOLD when the pressure is on. Tonight was the second straight MUST WIN game in which they just FOLDED. Last year, it was a 28 pt loss to the Spurs. This year... well you saw the game. I can't recall a game in which a team won championship with absolutely NO FIGHT from the other team. The Lakers should be booted out of the league for that thoroughly unprofessional effort. The Pistons were JUST AWESOME, but still..... where was the Lakers' heart? 

I knew Malone and Payton would never work. They were both WAY TOO old when they signed last summer and only got OLDER (as happened to us all) as the season went on. Quite frankly, they would have played better with Brian Shaw and Bob Horry. What an utter embarrassment the Lakers were to the league this year. 4 Hall of Famers got burned... big time. Any Laker fan who is surprised that a 41 year old was too hobbled to play tonight should have his or her head examined. It should come as no surprise. And if you buy Payton's excuse that the "system didn't fit his game," I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. Payton KNEW what system he was signing on to. And he had MANY good games for the Lakers this year. And he knew EXACTLY what system he was going to have to play to win the championship, but when push came to shove, it wasn't the SYSTEM that brought down Payton. It was his OWN ineptitude. His defense was PUTRID and he couldn't even knock down open shots. He had no problem scoring 14 ppg in the regular season, so I'm led to believe that what I just witnessed was nothing more than a good ol fashioned CHOKE JOB. Again, no one should be surprised. Payton has choked HIS ENTIRE CAREER. The choking goes back to his college days. Remember Ball State? 

Also, what does this say about the WOLVES? the SPURS??? and for that matter, the BUCKS and the NETS? The Bucks lost in 5 to the Pistons too. And the Nets? They had a 3-2 lead on the Pistons and had a SERIOUS CHANCE to win the series in 6 games. I give the title of "SECOND PLACE" to those New Jersey Nets.

Anyone who said that you can't win a championship with Rasheed Wallace is now proven wrong.

Anyone who said that you can't win a championship without one superstar player who dominates every game is now proven wrong.

In other words, anyone who thought the solution to the Blazers' problems was to trade Sheed because he wasn't a "conventional superstar" is no PROVEN WRONG. Kevin Garnett and Tracy McGrady still have 0 rings. But Rasheed has ONE and counting.

Hell, it's VERY interesting that the ORLANDO MAGIC had the WORST RECORD in the league despite having the kind of superstar that many Blazer fans felt was what we always needed to win.

To all who laughed at me when I put up my Pistons-Lakers simulation, which had the Pistons WINNING the series..... you may eat your crow now. There's plenty to go around. Kobe says it's as tasty as last year's.

Go Blazers<==== team that has traded both Drexler and Sheed into immediate championships.

Go Blazers<===== team that went to the lottery for the first time ever, now that Championsheed is gone


----------



## jackiejackal

I don't think that it was lack of heart.
They simply got outplayed at every position.


----------



## KingSpeed

Sheed darn well HAS indication being appreciative to the Portland fans MANY times and he did that coat drive every year too. Your hate has blinded you.


----------



## KingSpeed

Rip Hamilton: "Wow. We always knew we could get here. But when we got Rasheed, we knew we could win it."


----------



## jackiejackal

what on earth does a coat drive have to do for appreciation to the fans ??

That is absurd.

A coat for the poor has zero connection to the fans.

ZERO


----------



## KingSpeed

Sorry. I've seen BIGGER MISMATCHES in the NBA Finals. The Knicks were TOTALLY outmatched in the 1999 Finals, but they played the Spurs down to the last second in Game 5. The Lakers have NO HEART. They folded. But you go ahead and think whatever you want.


----------



## KingSpeed

Prince: "Once we got Sheed, everything started clicking."

interesting....


----------



## KingSpeed

Rasheed said things in post game press conferences to the fans and for the fans. ANd I remember Sheed giving the fans high fives during that rout we had against the Mavs at Rose Garden on March 14, 2002. YOu're so off base.

Bottom line: Sheed's way works. We just saw it work in Detroit. The solution to the Blazers' problems was to get a better coach and better teammates for Sheed.


----------



## TP3

tired


----------



## KingSpeed

*Blazer Tradition.*

Trade Franchise Player.

Watch Franchise Player beat Shaq in NBA Finals.


----------



## pumpkinheadgiant

> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> what on earth does a coat drive have to do for appreciation to the fans ??
> 
> That is absurd.
> 
> A coat for the poor has zero connection to the fans.
> 
> ZERO


Unless you count the many, many lower-income families that benefited from the coat drives. You don't have to be Ron Tonkin, or even have season tickets to count yourself a fan. I'm not talking about obsessive compulsive emotionally confused "fan"atics, just people that like to watch basketball. 

Enough of this fan worship anyway. I personally found this season's Trailblazer marketing of the Portland fan base to itself to be absurd and insulting. I did like the "about-town" commercials with the new guys.

I'd suggest that you simply relax and "let it go" JJ, but I imagine you're sick of hearing that by now.

SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!!!! finally got a ring! Much happiness to him, his family, and his fans, new and old!!!!


----------



## TP3

go away


----------



## KingSpeed

Thank you, pumpkin.

For some reason, Jackie thinks that poor people don't like basketball. Such a thought is ABSURD. Jackie is just so blinded by hate, it's sad.


----------



## HOWIE

*Re: Blazer Tradition.*



> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Trade Franchise Player.
> 
> Watch Franchise Player beat Shaq in NBA Finals.


Kinda of a neat thing when you think about it huh? You would think that more teams would want to trade with Portland now! :grinning:


----------



## HOWIE

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Prince: "Once we got Sheed, everything started clicking."
> 
> interesting....


Hmmm, so your saying that Portland should have kept Rasheed or that he is a better fit in Detroit?

interesting.....


----------



## pumpkinheadgiant

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Thank you, pumpkin.
> 
> For some reason, Jackie thinks that poor people don't like basketball. Such a thought is ABSURD. Jackie is just so blinded by hate, it's sad.


I doubt that JJ thinks that at all. Everybody's blinded by something; to think that you're an exception is ABSURD.

Like I said earlier, SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!!


----------



## Kmurph

Deleted. No personal attacks.


----------



## Brian.




----------



## jackiejackal

goodnight Nathan..
thank you for a truly good laugh..
"Jackie is just so blinded by hate, it's sad."

I laughed out loud when i read this.



God knows what you are blinded by..  ??


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## KingSpeed

*OT: Fred Carter asked Rip Hamilton and Ben Wallace....*

......"When did you believe that you could win the championship?"

The answer for BOTH of them was....

"when we got Rasheed Wallace."

See? Sheed makes a team believe they can win. When we lost Sheed, we went to the lottery cuz deep deep down, we no longer believed we could win.


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## KingSpeed

I'm saying that Rasheed is a special one of kind player who can only make ANY TEAM he plays on BETTER. 

So no, we should NOT have traded him. It was the stupidest trade ever.


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## Minstrel

Congratulations to 'Sheed and Detroit. It's great to see Rasheed win a title before Karl Malone.

Wallace never changed his game or his style, but now he's on a team and playing for a fanbase that appreciates what he is and doesn't keep blasting him for what he isn't.

I doubt many Detroit fans are creating threads tonight saying, "Only 11 points for Rasheed Wallace? That bum, he never tries hard. He could put up Tim Duncan numbers and he's a lazy jerk unless he does. Plus he has no respect for us fans."

I'm very happy Wallace has found the right place and situation for him. And that that place and situation happened to be denying LA a championship.


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## Goldmember

If Rasheed would have won a championship in Portland, all Blazer fans would appreciate him too.


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## KingSpeed

Sheed really stuck it to Bill Walton by beating his son for the championship, didn't he?

Damn, Larry Brown just talked about how Sheed improved the Pistons in "every way" and talked about what a great player and teammate Sheed is.

WHY did so many fans hate on him in Portland?

So stupid.


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## Oldmangrouch

Sheed is no longer a Blazer....some folks need to get over it and move on.

Sheed is a good player who just helped his new team win an NBA title..........some folks need to get over that as well!

Hate Sheed? Hate the Blazers for trading Sheed? Both are just plain silly.


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## Goldmember

> See? Sheed makes a team believe they can win. When we lost Sheed, we went to the lottery cuz deep deep down, we no longer believed we could win.


Wasn't Sheed with us the first half of the season when the Blazers were losing all those games and fell into a huge hole that eventually led to the lottery? I guess all that belief that Rasheed gave us really paid off. 

In fact, we had a better record after he left, with a team that actually played inspired ball. A team that most people believe would have been in the playoffs if they had been together the whole season.


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## KingSpeed

Gold- you're wrong on so many levels.

Cook, Damon, DA, Dale, and Miles all praised Sheed and wanted him to stay. 

We were a .500 team with Sheed and a .500 without him. That is a fact. BUT, for most of the time we had Sheed, he was out of position at SF, and we were without both DA and Miles. We had a frickin PG at the SG position. With DA and Miles, and Sheed at C, we were 8-2. Without Sheed, we were just .500. [strike]See? Understand???[/strike]

Stick to basketball discussion. Don't condescendingly bait.


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## Goldmember

Deleted. Discuss basketball, not a poster's preferences.


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## Ed O

Neither Rasheed nor his absence were the reason that we struggled this year: it was that we had no guards for a key stretch of the season. After trading Bonzi, and with DA out, we were (as Nathan points out) going with McInnis for long stretches at the 2. That McInnis/Damon back court killed us.

The Blazers went 9-16 between the time Bonzi was traded and the time Miles was acquired... and there was a nasty 6-16 stretch right in the middle of that (2 games won right after Bonzi was traded and one right before trading McInnis).

Take out that stretch where Cheeks went predominantly with McInnis/Damon and the team went 32-25, which is a better record than any single significant stretch of the season.

Ed O.


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## STOMP

I guess it's sour grapes night for some, gloating night for others. I enjoyed watching some good ball. Portland's backcourt sucked this year, only one more year to endure... 

STOMP


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## RipCity9

> Damn, Larry Brown just talked about how Sheed improved the Pistons in "every way" and talked about what a great player and teammate Sheed is.


If only that had been true of his time in Portland.


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## HOWIE

> Originally posted by <b>Oldmangrouch</b>!
> Sheed is no longer a Blazer....some folks need to get over it and move on.
> 
> Sheed is a good player who just helped his new team win an NBA title..........some folks need to get over that as well!
> 
> Hate Sheed? Hate the Blazers for trading Sheed? Both are just plain silly.


:clap: Both sides need to freaking get over it.......time to move on people.


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## Blazer Ringbearer

Much props to Sheed and the Pistons...

Thanks for making this the most entertaining finals in recent memory.

GONG!


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## KingSpeed

Looks like I nailed Goldmember. He couldn't debate the facts so he resorted to a personal attack?

I LOVE IT


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## nikebasketball




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## nikebasketball




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## Goldmember

I'm not going to waste my time debating with you. Everything I have to say other people have already said to you a dozen times and you just blow it off anyway.


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## nikebasketball

*
Thanks John Nash !!
* 

*
DETROIT PISTONS
* 
*
2003-2004 NBA CHAMPIONS
*


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## HOWIE

> Originally posted by <b>NathanLane</b>!
> Looks like I nailed Goldmember. He couldn't debate the facts so he resorted to a personal attack?
> 
> I LOVE IT


....and that is what it is all about for you isn't it NathanLane, getting people hook, line, and sinker.........and you continue to bait him by gloating. I felt you bring 99% of this on yourself. :whatever:


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## Blazerfan024

> Originally posted by <b>nikebasketball</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> Thanks John Nash !!
> *
> 
> *
> DETROIT PISTONS
> *
> *
> 2003-2004 NBA CHAMPIONS
> *


:clap: :clap:


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## STOMP

I just heard a clip of the Pistons elderly owner Bill Davidson at their victory party that I found pretty funny. He said..."_Before the series, the odds were 8 to 1 against us. Bullbleep! They were lucky to win once_" 

 

STOMP


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## Brian.

I went to the championship parade in Detroit today and I must say Sheed impressed me as a person. All of the other players were in their convertibiles waving at the fans. Sheed though walked the parade route and shook hands with as many fans as he could.


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## HOWIE

> Originally posted by <b>Brian</b>!
> I went to the championship parade in Detroit today and I must say Sheed impressed me as a person. All of the other players were in their convertibiles waving at the fans. Sheed though walked the parade route and shook hands with as many fans as he could.


Isn't it crazy what some players will do in a contract year? I think that Rasheed has found a home, good for him!


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