# Exercising Options



## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

It's decision time for Jerry Krause and the Chicago Bulls as to whether they'll exercise their team option on the contracts of Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford and Dalibar Bagaric.

They must reach their decision by October 31 or risk losing them to free agency after this season. Out of the entire draft class of 2000, so far only Desmond Mason of Seattle and Kenyon Martin of New Jersey have had their options picked up by their respective teams this summer.

Fizer: $3,726,994.
Crawford: $2,577,937.
Bagaric: $1,599,076.

That's what each player is guarranteed in salary for the '03/'04 season if the Bulls choose to retain their services. Those three salaries come to $7,904,007. If you add to that total the expiring contracts of Corie Blount ($1.4 million) and Fred Hoiberg ($1.1 million) you're now staring at the possibility of reducing payroll by more than $10.4 million next season if their options _aren't_ picked up. That would drop their '03/'04 salary committments to eight players plus a first round pick and a payroll of approximately $36 million.

If the salary cap increases to any degree next summer, the Bulls could find themselves among a very few teams capable of making a contract offer in excess of the mid level exception to one of the many outstanding free agents that will be on the market at that time.

So here's the quandry the Bulls find themselves in. Do they exercise the options on these players, effectively locking them in as members of the Bulls through next season and hope to lure a free agent with the mid level exception (like most everyone else)? Or, do they cut these players loose in hopes of landing one of the bigger free agent fish with somewhere in the neighborhood of $6 to $7 million in cap space? Sometime between now and Halloween we should have a pretty good idea of what Krause is planning to do when 2003 rolls around with all those quality free agents.


----------



## jbob2 (Jul 16, 2002)

fizer's and crawford's options will be picked-up for sure, bagaric is a bit of a question. if he has a nice traing camp i'd think bagaric would haved his option picked-up as well.

our would be cap room wouldn't be able to compensate for the loss of these 3.


----------



## LoaKhoet (Aug 20, 2002)

Well, JKrauz hasn't done well with free-agency in the past few years so I expect JKrauz to play it safe. Crawford will definitely be picked up even if he doesn't play much of next season cuz of injuries. Fizer's $3.7/yr isn't that bad. That's probably his true market value. Bargaric is definitely making a little more than he should but JKrauz loves the guy so i expect he to be a Bull.

However, i were JKrauz i would rather keep Blount instead of Bargaric. Blount at least can tutor Chandler and Curry. I don't think they listen to Bargaric.


----------



## Dan Rosenbaum (Jun 3, 2002)

HJ:

According to RealGM, counting Hassell, we are committed to $36.2M in salaries before considering a draft pick. Add in a draft pick and we are probably somewhere between $37.2M and $39.5M with $38M being where we would be if we ended up with the #8 pick.

The mid-level exception is likely to be around $4.9M next year, so the salary cap would have to increase to about $43M before we would be likely to experience any benefits of not picking up options in order to get under the salary cap.

This is about a 7% increase in the salary cap, which is low by historical standards, but the best information that I have seen suggests that TV revenues (which make up about a quarter of total basketball related income (BRI), which determines the salary cap) are only going to increase by 3% next year. Non-TV revenues have only increased by about 5% a year the last two years, so it far from certain that the salary cap will be $43M or higher next year.

Perhaps more importantly, we not only would have to not pick up the options on these players, but we would also have to renounce them (and Fred Hoiberg and Corie Blount) in order to clear this cap room. We would, for the most part, lose the option to sign-and-trade these players.

Also, MSBH has claimed that we signed Blount to a minimum salary and thus did not use the million dollar exception on him. If he is right and we stay under the salary cap, we also lose that exception in addition to any trade exceptions we might acquire.

So unless we trade one of our (already signed for next year) players for an expiring contract, I don't think we will not pick up the option on one of our players as a way to increase salary cap space.

That said, I could imagine us not picking up the option on Fizer and/or Bagaric. Both might have more value in trade without their options picked up than they have with the options picked up. We or the team we trade them to can still re-sign them starting at the value of their 4th year salaries (had the option been picked up) without using the mid-level exception.

I would be amazed if Crawford's option is not picked up.


----------



## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

Out of that three, the only player I would consider picking my option on is probably JC and nobody else... Fizer would be overpaid with that amount given his poor defense playing and the knack for not crashing the board hard enough... IMO, for a backup pf, I felt Blount would be just fine if not better as a backup pf and cheaper... For the center backup position, I think we will address that problem next year or in the draft if possible... Without picking the option on Bargaric and Fizer, that would total about 5.2 mil where that money could be spend on a better player than the two... If Ratliff managed to stay healthy for this entire season, I think a deal of Fizer and Bargaric for Mohammed wouldn't be out of the question since it provides a servicable backup bigmen that proved to be a good starter at the center position... If not, go after Foyle from the Warrior... No offense to Fizer but if he doesn't pick up his game, he won't command more than 3 mil from any team given that the luxury tax still stayed in effect...


----------



## hps (Jul 23, 2002)

I agree Fizer and Crawford will almost certainly have their options picked up. 

Bagaric, it's hard not to root for the guy, and he does play like he knows what he's doing once in a while. Even when he looks lost, because he is so big he changes a fair amount of shots and prevents people from driving while he's in there. But the guy just seems a step slow out there, both physically and mentally. 

If Bags shows marked improvement in the preseason, I wouldn't be suprised to see the Bulls pick up his option. They can still offer the exception next year, and picking up Bagaric's option for 1 more year isn't a big risk. That said, I'd still hope to sign another veteran defensive big man (a better Corie Blount) like PJ Brown or Elden Campbell, both who will be free agents next year. Though Campbell doesn't have the greatest reputation as a team player or defender.


----------



## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

If for whatever reason we don't pick up Fizer and Crawford's option which I highly doubt, Minnesota asking price for Wally is those 2 and a switch of 1sts this year, in my book, way too high a price unless we wouldn't be keeping them.


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Songcycle</b>!
> If for whatever reason we don't pick up Fizer and Crawford's option which I highly doubt, Minnesota asking price for Wally is those 2 and a switch of 1sts this year, in my book, way too high a price unless we wouldn't be keeping them.


Alot of us did think thats too high of a price. Crawford and especially Fizer has been rumored in a lot of trade talks. We still have some time to see what if anything will happen.


----------



## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

I say pick up all three options. Though I hate watching Fizer and Bags enter the game, there are teams who would feel they are worth this amount. Also, in the big FA fishing pool, odds are that most of the names move through sign-and-trade rather than outright FA. Any or all of those three may look very enticing to a rebuilding team looking for depth and not able to retain their own FA. 

Face it, they're not doing too much worse than anyone else in their draft class, and hype for Crawford's sweet stroke, Fizer's instant offense, and Bag's oafishness may get another team to bite on player's still in their rookie contracts with full Bird rights and restricted FA ahead.

Even if no other team want's them, they are producing at the level of rookie contracts. Their value to us is definitely worth what we'd sign them for.

I'm still hoping for a many for one deal..... that doesn't involve Hassell.


----------



## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

Today the Magic exercised their team option on Mike Miller. Here's what John Gabriel had to say:

*"We had until Oct. 31 to exercise our option on Mike, but it wasn't necessary to wait that long," Magic general manager John Gabriel said. "We are very excited to have him signed through the 2003-04 season."*

Makes you wonder what Krause might be thinking about each of his first round picks from the 2000 draft. 
:yes:


----------



## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

Miller is nothing special and Gabriel gave up the likes of Ben Wallace, Atkins. multiple draft picks, etc. fot virtually nothing and needlessly. He had Hill and McGrady locked up, but did sign and trades to give them extra millioms by having their original teams sign them and they are not much better at all and might have been better off letting things sit. They won 41 before the signings and 2 years later rose to 44. That is not to even mention Haywood,
I hope we pick up the option on all 3, but we have more than 2 months. There is no hurry.


----------



## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

HJ, you had one of the most interesting posts of the week when you talked about having been able to trade Fizer and Crawford for O'Neal. I always figrued we took Fizer to trade for O'Neal, but that obviously didn't happen. I was against trading Fizer and Crawford for O'Neal, remember, O'Neal was not a proven commodity at the time. In retrospect it would have been a great move.
But, if that deal went through, there would surely be no Curry or Jay Williams and maybe no Chandler as maybe we would have kept Brand. Funny how things work.


----------



## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HJHJR</b>!
> Today the Magic exercised their team option on Mike Miller. Here's what John Gabriel had to say:
> 
> *"We had until Oct. 31 to exercise our option on Mike, but it wasn't necessary to wait that long," Magic general manager John Gabriel said. "We are very excited to have him signed through the 2003-04 season."*
> ...


But what he did not say HJ was :

*We had until Oct 31 to exercise our option on Mike and through summer as we were sitting tight and seeing what panned out around the league, it became clear that we could not use Mike to upgrade for an inside stud at the 4 or 5 spots - still on his rookie contract preferably - so that we do not sacrifice our cap space for next summer . So as this window of opportunity - faint as it may have been - was firmly shut , we decided to pick up Mike's option and try and put a BS spin on things about us being sure about Mike's tenure as a magician to protect the value in our asset *


----------



## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> 
> 
> But what he did not say HJ was :
> ...


Or, how about this, FJ:

*"As brutal as our front line is, it looks like the best we can get for Miller is Marcus Fizer...I'd rather have Ho Grant back for another year. I don't care if they throw in Crawford, either...now that we've got Jacque Vaugn."*

If we stop sippin' Bulls Kool-Aid long enough, we might start to realize that the rest of the league just doesn't seem to think as much of some of our players as we do. Hell, we couldn't even give Fizer to Utah in a sign and trade for Marshall. They preferred to lose Donyell outright rather than get something in return.:laugh:


----------



## RealFan (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HJHJR</b>!
> 
> 
> Or, how about this, FJ:
> ...


Don't believe everything you read. Fizer may not be worth what a lot of people think, but he's certainly not garbage either. He has proven his ability offensively, now he needs to be more consistent. I think a full training camp under Cartwright and with new leaders like Rose and Williams will help light a fire under the "defensive" Fizer that we all want to see.

I think it's highly unlikely that Krause was unable to "give" away Fizer. I think that IF Fizer was being shopped, the asking price was too high.


----------



## Fizer Fanatic (Jun 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HJHJR</b>!
> If we stop sippin' Bulls Kool-Aid long enough, we might start to realize that the rest of the league just doesn't seem to think as much of some of our players as we do. Hell, we couldn't even give Fizer to Utah in a sign and trade for Marshall. They preferred to lose Donyell outright rather than get something in return.:laugh:


I agree with your first sentence quoted above, we probably do over-value our own guys. However, as others have pointed out, Marshall would never do a sign & trade for Fizer's salary when he could take the mid-level exeption from the Bulls for more dough. Erob would probably have to be part of the deal to make a sign & trade compelling for Marshall, and Utah wouldn't want to do that for luxury tax reasons. And considering Utah used cap room below the perceived luxury tax level from loosing Donyell to get Harpring, it's hardly like they lost him for nothing from their perspective. I still remember those opposing radio announcers talking about Fizer's effectiveness last year. He gets more respect around the league than what you're implying here IMO, albeit probably less than what we would like.


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RealFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Don't believe everything you read. Fizer may not be worth what a lot of people think, but he's certainly not garbage either. He has proven his ability offensively, now he needs to be more consistent. I think a full training camp under Cartwright and with new leaders like Rose and Williams will help light a fire under the "defensive" Fizer that we all want to see.
> ...


yes, GMs around the league dont value players on bad teams the same as players on winning squads

if the bulls bust out in the first half of the season with a top 8 record in the east, then the whole teams stock rises dramatically


----------



## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

*Update*

Today (8/26) the Toronto Raptors exercised their option on Morris Peterson, the 21st pick in the 2000 draft.

So far, out of the draft class of 2000 we've seen team options exercised on

Kenyon Martin (NJ, 1st pick)
Mike Miller (Orl., 5th pick)
Desmond Mason (Sea., 17th pick)
Morris Peterson (Tor., 21st pick).


----------



## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

That's probably pretty close to value ranking from that class at this point in time too

Boy did that draft blow by the buckets


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Update*



> Originally posted by <b>HJHJR</b>!
> Today (8/26) the Toronto Raptors exercised their option on Morris Peterson, the 21st pick in the 2000 draft.
> 
> So far, out of the draft class of 2000 we've seen team options exercised on
> ...


Didn't Krause say that he would draft him if the pick fell to him...and something about him playing the three with Brand on the floor at the same time?


----------



## HJHJR (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>FJ_of _Rockaway</b>!
> That's probably pretty close to value ranking from that class at this point in time too
> 
> Boy did that draft blow by the buckets


That's a great observation about value ranking, FJ! I'd have to agree with you that Martin, Miller, Mason and Peterson are probably the top producers so far from that draft class.

The next group might be comprised of Hidayet Turkoglu, Quentin Richardson, Jamal Magloire and Iakovos Tsakalidis.

After that I'd probably list Fizer, Miles, Crawford, Mihm and Madsen.

You can group the rest of that draft class any way you want to. Judging from this list I'd have to say this might have been the least talented draft class in many years. But who knows...they've only been in the league two years. Maybe someone will break out of the pack and be viewed as a potential all-star one day. But don't hold your breath waiting!:no:


----------



## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

If ever there was a draft not to have two lotto picks it was that one. Ouch.

At the very least (or most-depending on your view) it is a slow developing class.


----------



## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HJHJR</b>!
> 
> 
> That's a great observation about value ranking, FJ! I'd have to agree with you that Martin, Miller, Mason and Peterson are probably the top producers so far from that draft class.
> ...


And don't forget all-around good guy Courtney Alexander!  

No, but seriously, He might still be the best scorer from this draft.


----------



## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

This thread makes me wonder if GM's know how good or bad a draft is going to be in advance.
If so, is that why we were able to get a #7 for Kukoc. Of course I seem to remember, the pick was top 3 protected and if it was, we would have gotten the Wiz pick the next year unconditionally.
I really don't know, just throwing it out for discussion.


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Song:

I'd agree with you that GM's have a preminition about how good a draft is going to be except we are talking about Atlanta. Come on, Atlanta. Atlanta hasn't shown the ability to see what's happening (if they were stuck in the '70's with a black and white TV.) All kidding aside I like the team Pete Babcock has pieced together this season. 

I have to disagree with everyone on the value of the members of the 2000 draft. Due to the fact that Cleveland was willing to part with Dre Miller for him I would call it a safe bet that Darius Miles is valued over the entire class. I can't see that happening with anyone else on the lists. Probably Q in second and Turkoglu and Martin vying for third.


----------



## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

No offense but JK or anything but he was an idiot when he passed up a potential deal involving Bonzi Well or J. O'Neal for Toni Kukoc at the time. Look how J. O'Neal is faring right now... Instead he chose a draft pick because he thinks he is an NBA DRAFT GURU... I don't understand because at the mid of the 1999 season, Steve Keer mentioned that Bob Whitsitt offered J. O'Neal for Toni Kukoc straight up... Obviously, JK is too damn greedy and demanded Bonzi Wells and O'Neal for Toni... Whitsitt pulled the deal off the table and JK was left screwed...


----------



## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

That's a new for me Tri N, I don't remember hearing that at all. I also doubt the salaries matched and that Portland could have made the trade of O'Neal for Kukoc, the Blazers were over the cap back then too.


----------



## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

Toni made $4.61 mil in 1999, while O'Neal ($1.075 mil) and Wells ($1.1 mil) combined to make less than half that ($2.175 mil total).

http://www.dfw.net/~patricia/misc/salaries99.txt

So you're right, Songcycle- Krause couldn't have traded Kukoc for BOTH O'Neal and Wells, let alone do a Toni for Jermaine straight up.



*I don't understand because at the mid of the 1999 season, Steve Keer mentioned that Bob Whitsitt offered J. O'Neal for Toni Kukoc straight up... Obviously, JK is too damn greedy and demanded Bonzi Wells and O'Neal for Toni*

No offense, Tri-N, but it seems as if your version of the facts is *obviously* wrong.


----------



## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

Great research Bullsnews.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BullsNews</b>!
> Toni made $4.61 mil in 1999, while O'Neal ($1.075 mil) and Wells ($1.1 mil) combined to make less than half that ($2.175 mil total).
> 
> http://www.dfw.net/~patricia/misc/salaries99.txt
> ...



You know, it's more than possible that the deal could have included a throw-in player or two to make up the difference.


----------



## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> You know, it's more than possible that the deal could have included a throw-in player or two to make up the difference.


You're right, that's very possible. But Tri-N said that the deal on the table was O'Neal for Kukoc *straight up*, and that deal would have been impossible. 

The part I had a problem with was when Tri-N said that "*Obviously*, JK is too damn greedy and demanded Bonzi Wells and O'Neal for Toni"- how the hell is that obvious? Krause could have asked for O'Neal plus Augmon or Walt Williams for Kukoc, and that deal would have actually worked out salary-wise.

I'm also very curious as to how Steve Kerr would have any info on a trade that Whitsett offered in 1999, considering that Kerr played for the Spurs that season?


----------



## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BullsNews</b>!
> 
> 
> You're right, that's very possible. But Tri-N said that the deal on the table was O'Neal for Kukoc *straight up*, and that deal would have been impossible.
> ...



Tri-N isn't the only one who remembers about this supposed O-Neal for Kukoc trade. I also recall (and no, I can't provide any "links" to back this up) a rumored deal of Kukoc for O'Neal, with the "holdup" being Krause wanting Bonzi Wells as a throw-in. And I doubt O'Neal was only making 1 million that year. I don't know how accurate those figures are that you got Bullsnews but Kukoc for O'Neal straight up was pretty close in matching salaries. Anyway, my point is I think O'Neal made a lot more than 1 mill that season. 

Portland was interested in Kukoc when it became rumored that the Lakers had an interest in him as well. The Lakers had yet to win their first title and there were rumors of Kukoc coming to LA and joining Phil Jackson and putting the Lakers over the top.


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SALO</b>!
> 
> Tri-N isn't the only one who remembers about this supposed O-Neal for Kukoc trade. I also recall (and no, I can't provide any "links" to back this up) a rumored deal of Kukoc for O'Neal, with the "holdup" being Krause wanting Bonzi Wells as a throw-in. And I doubt O'Neal was only making 1 million that year. I don't know how accurate those figures are that you got Bullsnews but Kukoc for O'Neal straight up was pretty close in matching salaries. Anyway, my point is I think O'Neal made a lot more than 1 mill that season.
> 
> Portland was interested in Kukoc when it became rumored that the Lakers had an interest in him as well. The Lakers had yet to win their first title and there were rumors of Kukoc coming to LA and joining Phil Jackson and putting the Lakers over the top.


I do remember Portland and LA being very interested in the services of Kukoc. Instead Kukoc got shipped to the 76ers.

I remember O'Neal being mentioned, but it is quite possible Wells was included as well. The same such rumors occured in the 2000 draft where the Bulls wanted BOTH.


VD


----------



## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

Good morning people, Krause has always loved O'Neal, offered him a 1 year deal at 9 mil, which he turned down to reup multi year for less per year with Portland. Portland could have obviously had the #4 *Fizer or whoever they wanted)for O'Neal, that was on the table and real, and Kukoc got us #7. Use your brains here, Krause would have pulled the trigger in a heartbeat. Even with a link, does that mean its real just cause its on the web. Even if Kerr said it, how would he know, and I really doubt he said it. Get real guys, this is nonsense. I am close to losing respect for some of you.


----------



## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

I am sorry but J. O'Neal doesn't make 1 mil per year as said by BullsNew but rather around 7 mil per year. You can go to realgm and check if you like... Given the circumstances, JK could included Hawkins in there along with Kukoc and it would have worked out just fine... JK had been known for valuing lottery pick and it wouldn't have surprised me that he thinks he can find a superstar in the making with the pick... The rumored deal from the Lakers was Eddies Jones for Toni... It was rumored that year before the Brand draft... Somehow, JK want to save some salary cap to attract FAs and fear that the addition of Jones would worsen our chances of the number 1 pick... The rumor renewed during the following season and I think the Lakers offered something again for Toni... Portland, fearing that the Lakers might topple them, offer J. O'Neal for Toni and possibly fillers... I don't have a link to this but it was rumored on one of the Bulls games and on ESPN 1000 radio during the game...


----------



## jimmy (Aug 20, 2002)

*I may be the only one saying this but let them go*

It looks like Fizer will be coming of the bench the rest of his career as a Bull because of Tyson Chandler. So why pay him more to stay when we have a cheap, quality backup PF in Baxter? And when Tyson starts playing 30-35 minutes a game, what then? Have Marcus Fizer earn his millions playing 10 minutes? Let him go or trade him. 

As for Crawford, same idea applies. When Jay Williams starts, what is the point of paying millions of dollars to a high lottery pick back-up who can't play D? Let him go or trade him.

Dalibor makes at least a million dollars? Why? What on earth does he do to deserve that kind of money :upset: Anybody can suck at basketball, throw elbows, get T's and flagurent fouls, and swear at refs in a foreign language. Let him go or trade him to any team that wants him.


----------



## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

Tri_N, you are a good guy, but wiith all due respect Bullsnews presented the salaries the year the deal would have been according to your post on the table before O'Neal reupped and that was his salary then like around 1mil and change. Now its seven, then it was a rookie year contract for the #17 pick, nowhere near the same amount. The deal for Jones and Cambell was real, but that would have taken Pippen out of the year we won the 6th title and we would not have won the ring that year That deal was not there after ring 6 If LA took Glenn Rice, they surely would have grabbed Pippen, before he started slifing.. If we were to trade Pippen that year, ut would have been to Boston for 2-3 first rounders.
Just because something is in the newspapers or radio or tv, doesn't always make it real. Krause was dying to trade the #4 for for O'Neal, the pick we got for Kukoc would have not even been a question or Kukoc himslef, the trigger would have been pulled.


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Per the Kukoc trade discussion:

Kukoc himself found a piece of paper detailing trade scenarios with the LA Lakers and Portland on the floor in the lockerroom. The principle names discussed were Glen Rice (with LA) and O'Neal (from Portland). Whether Kerr really knew this or not, there were discussions that took place. That is a fact.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/phil_taylor/news/2000/02/09/taylor_insider/
http://detnews.com/2000/sports/0002/18/02180091.htm

VD


----------



## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

Thanks for the good read and research Vin Diesel, but talking trade and pulling the trigger are two vey different things. There are probably talks about virtually every decent player in the NBA, but a serious talk is another thing and pulling the trigger is a whole other thing. Players would probably freak out if they knew how often they were talked about about, but talk is just that, talk, action is a whole other thing.
There is no question in my mind that Krause would have traded Kukoc for O'Neal in a heartbeat if that was an option at the time or any time. Add Bonzi Wells and please, less than a no brainer.
Talk and pieces of the paper on the floor are just that, talk and pieces of paper on the floor.


----------



## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Songcycle</b>!
> Bullsnews presented the salaries the year the deal would have been according to your post on the table before O'Neal reupped and that was his salary then like around 1mil and change. Now its seven, then it was a rookie year contract for the #17 pick, nowhere near the same amount.


96-97 POR 45 0 458 69-153 0-1 47-78 39 85 124 8 2 26 27 46 185 
97-98 POR 60 9 808 112-231 0-2 45-89 80 121 201 17 15 58 55 101 269 
98-99 POR 36 1 311 36-83 0-1 18-35 42 55 97 13 4 14 14 41 90 
99-00 POR 70 8 859 108-222 0-1 57-98 97 132 229 18 11 55 47 127 273 
00-01 IND 81 80 2,641 404-868 0-5 233-388 249 545 794 98 49 228 161 280 1,041 
01-02 IND 72 72 2,707 543-1,133 1-14 284-413 188 569 757 118 45 166 174 269 1,371 

J. O'Neal spend four years in Portland before trading to the Pacers... According to my understanding, he was a class of 96 and therefore only limited to three years of the league before becoming a FA... If my understanding was corrected, JK pursued J. O'Neal in FA with an offer of 9 mil but O'Neal passed up because Dunleavy promised that he will receive more playing time... I don't know the extent of the contract in which he was given but if my understanding was corrected it was after the 98-99 season... This is Toni career:

93-94 CHI 75 8 24.1 .431 .271 .743 1.30 2.70 4.00 3.4 1.08 .44 2.23 1.60 10.9 
94-95 CHI 81 55 31.9 .504 .313 .748 1.90 3.50 5.40 4.6 1.26 .20 2.04 2.00 15.7 
95-96 CHI 81 20 26.0 .490 .403 .772 1.40 2.60 4.00 3.5 .79 .35 1.41 1.90 13.1 
96-97 CHI 57 15 28.2 .471 .331 .770 1.60 2.90 4.60 4.5 1.05 .51 1.60 1.70 13.2 
97-98 CHI 74 52 30.2 .455 .362 .708 1.60 2.80 4.40 4.2 1.03 .50 2.08 2.00 13.3 
98-99 CHI 44 44 37.6 .420 .285 .740 1.50 5.60 7.00 5.3 1.11 .25 2.75 1.90 18.8 
99-00 CHI 32 8 28.6 .438 .289 .673 1.20 3.30 4.50 4.4 1.03 .28 2.22 1.90 12.4 
99-00 CHI 24 23 36.2 .381 .231 .761 1.50 3.90 5.40 5.2 1.83 .79 3.13 2.10 18.0 
00-01 PHI 48 5 20.4 .458 .410 .591 1.00 2.40 3.40 1.9 .73 .13 1.25 1.30 8.0 

Toni was traded during the 99-00 season so at this time J. O'Neal contract had already been renewed and at that year he made about 6.5 mil in an increase of some percentage in which he made about 7 mil this season...


----------



## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

Every piece of writing in the media had some truth to it like the Brand trade in which Smith was predicting that we get Q Rich or Maggette and the 2nd pick for Brand. In the end, we only get the 2nd pick... Taking this writing to the limit, I think Whitsitt at least J. O'Neal for Kukoc because at the time, they had no need for J O'Neal since they had Sabonis at the center position along with Sheed in which they were interchangeable.... This left J. O'Neal about 10-15 the most and they could very well find a player and I believe it was Will Purdue to fill that hole... They had Isiah Rider at the time who played sg so the only void was a sf... Toni came off a 3 NBA championships run along with the career stats he put up that season, he was very favorable along the Blazers management since here's a guy that will bring some stability to the team along with his championship experience...


----------



## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

Tri N, checking the same site BullsNews presented for that year, O'Neal salary was $5,075,000, which means something could have happened. Krause loved O'Neal, he would have pulled the trigger if that was available. Kukoc got us the #7 pick and he offered the #4 for O'Neal that offseason.
Just becuase there was talk, didn't mean it is was real.
I do credit you for a very good post and very good research.


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Songcycle</b>!
> Thanks for the good read and research Vin Diesel, but talking trade and pulling the trigger are two vey different things. There are probably talks about virtually every decent player in the NBA, but a serious talk is another thing and pulling the trigger is a whole other thing. Players would probably freak out if they knew how often they were talked about about, but talk is just that, talk, action is a whole other thing.
> There is no question in my mind that Krause would have traded Kukoc for O'Neal in a heartbeat if that was an option at the time or any time. Add Bonzi Wells and please, less than a no brainer.
> Talk and pieces of the paper on the floor are just that, talk and pieces of paper on the floor.


Agreed.

Nothing is a sure thing, especially in dealings with 'Trader' Whitsitt. But O'Neal would have been a GREAT fit for the Bulls, so its really too bad. I wish all that flirtation (Kukoc, 2000 draft picks, whatever) had netted us the young star. And I give Krause credit for seeing O'Neals talent though he was buried deep in the Portland pine at times.

For the record, the Kukoc trade was a good one in that we eventually turned the #7 pick into Jamal Crawford. But seeing John Starks in a Bulls uniform? Man, that hurt. Those were probably the most painful Bulls games I have ever watched.


VD


----------



## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

Vin D,

Starks is and was the pits, but it made the trade work capwise. Very unfortunate. There were few players ever I hated worse than Starks. Krause sucked him him up to make a deal, that shows he can swallow it if needed. Maybe I should have talk to my girlfriend.

Personally I love trader Bob, he gave us Pippen for Polynice and the pick that got us BJ for Sellers. Wish there were more like him.


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Songcycle</b>!
> Vin D,
> 
> Starks is and was the pits, but it made the trade work capwise. Very unfortunate. There were few players ever I hated worse than Starks. Krause sucked him him up to make a deal, that shows he can swallow it if needed. Maybe I should have talk to my girlfriend.
> ...


Trader Bob is cool.

I had totally forgetten that he was on the other end w/ the Polynice deal. Wow. A top 50 NBA player and arguably the best on the ball defender ever for... a role player who likes to dress up like he's a real policeman. Now that's a good trade. Holla.

For all the crap Whitsitt gets, I like him as a GM. Sure he's in luxury tax hell, but he came within a 4th quarter and a 15 point lead of winning a championship. Few franchises, if any, have even seen that type of opportunity. And how he actually convinced Kemp to give back 20+ million of guarantted money I will never know. Trader Bob always keeps it interesting that's for sure.


VD


----------



## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

Howdy Vin D,

Man that game Portland choked still irks me no end. Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda, oh hell.
Overall I agree, he is very good, but guys like Sean Kemp and Damon Stoudamire really messed him up, not to mention Scottie who I mostly blame for that 4th quarter. That is the problem with the system, if you make a major mistake, you pay for 7 years. I wish Paul Allen owned one of the baseball teams here.
Thanks as always for thought provoking posts.


----------



## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SALO</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are obviously referring to the 1999-2000 season, and you're right- O'Neal made $5.075 mil that season. 

http://www.dfw.net/~patricia/misc/salaries00.txt

Tri-N said the deal was offered midway through the 1999 season (the lockout season), and O'Neal made $1.075 mil that season as he was on the last year of his rookie contract. But there was absolutely no reason for Krause to trade Toni for O'Neal then- O'Neal was a free agent after the 1999 season, and the Bulls had plenty of cap room to sign him to a max contract in the summer of 1999 without giving up anything in return.

In fact, Krause offered O'Neal the max ($9 mil) during the summer of 1999, but it was only a one-year contract. JO decided to instead sign a 4 year, $24 mil contract with the Blazers as he was promised more playing time if he stayed in Portland. Of course that didn't happen, as JO went from 8.6 min/game in 1999 to 12.3 min/game in 1999-2000.


----------



## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tri_N</b>!
> I am sorry but J. O'Neal doesn't make 1 mil per year as said by BullsNew but rather around 7 mil per year. You can go to realgm and check if you like...


Yeah, JO made $6.325 mil in 2001-2002, but you said that the deal was on the table during the 1999 season, and JO made $1.075 mil that season on the last year of his rookie contract. And you can't go to RealGM and check, they don't list salaries.


----------



## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> Per the Kukoc trade discussion:
> 
> Kukoc himself found a piece of paper detailing trade scenarios with the LA Lakers and Portland on the floor in the lockerroom. The principle names discussed were Glen Rice (with LA) and O'Neal (from Portland). Whether Kerr really knew this or not, there were discussions that took place. That is a fact.
> ...


The note was found during the 1999-2000 season, and again, Tri-N said the offer was made during the 1999 season. I believe the note was found, but that has nothing to do with Tri-N's statement about a Kukoc/O'Neal trade during the 1999 season.

And let's assume that Kerr did know about the trade proposals- that was during the 1999-2000 season, not the 1999 season like Tri-N said.


----------



## Songcycle (May 29, 2002)

Excellent take BullsNews as always.


----------



## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Songcycle</b>!
> Excellent take BullsNews as always.


Thanks Songcycle, I appreciate the kind words.


----------



## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BullsNews</b>!
> 
> 
> The note was found during the 1999-2000 season, and again, Tri-N said the offer was made during the 1999 season. I believe the note was found, but that has nothing to do with Tri-N's statement about a Kukoc/O'Neal trade during the 1999 season.
> ...


Sure.

I wasn't really backing up Tri-N's assertion that Kerr knew of such talks taking place, and that early for that matter. But they did take place later on in the game, and its a shame we didn't wind up w/ O'Neal in the process. But that's the past. Hey.


VD


----------



## BullsNews (Jun 7, 2002)

That's cool, Vin.

But let's flash back to the summer of 2000...

Rumors were running rampant that the Bulls were going to trade the #4 pick in the draft for O'Neal, and Bulls fans were up in arms wondering how Krause could trade the #4 pick for a guy who had done nothing in his 4 NBA seasons. I was *the one and only* Bulls fan on the message boards who wanted to do that trade (our "core" group of posters were on the ESPN boards at the time).

ace20004u will confirm my story. Of course, not everyone who posts here was with us then, but I was the only one who wanted O'Neal for the #4 pick, and I like to occasionally toot my own horn as to my eye for talent on that one.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Bump - may be time to revisit with the Crawford incident.


----------



## Jammer (May 28, 2002)

*2000 Draft*

I think Crawford's option will be picked up. 

The other two I don't know.

But to comment on the 2000 draft, I would have offered a trade that Jerry Krause would never have, because on principle, he doesn't trade a first round pick without knowing what he's getting back.

Since Jordan was bragging, at the time, that Washington would be a .500 winning percent team the next year, which I thought was ludicrous, I suggested offering Jordan the 7 pick for his *unrestricted first round pick in 2001.* 

Jordan would have probably gotten the deal down to the four pick, in advance, but then Bulls would have had an extra, unrestricted pick in 2001 ( Gasol ???).

With the seven pick I would have looked at Crawford and Keyon Dooling, and probably settled on Crawford.

So, the Bulls would still have Jamal, but could have had Pau Gasol in place of Marcus Fizer.

Oh well, what might have been.


----------

