# Shaq, just shut up.



## LakerLunatic (Mar 1, 2005)

Whats this talk i hear about Kobe being arogant? And Kobe being selfish? Do you see the things Shaq tells reporters. Trust me, im a Heat/Shaq fan, he is one of my favourite players ever. But this is getting so stupid, where he constantly refers to Kobe as his child. And puts him in the same context as penny hardaway. Ya ok maybe penny didnt work out to well, but look at how good Kobe is. Shaq acts like he did everything on his own in L.A. Just like Kobe, Shaqs never won anything on his own, honestly, Shaq is such a moron when he talks about Kobe being his "child". Atleast Kobe gives Shaq credit about his game, Shaq on the other hand, just tries so hard to be funny, to tell you the truth, i dont even find him funny. He is one of those guys you just laugh at there jokes because your scared not too. Shaq needs to shut up and let go off the fact that Kobe and him didnt work out, Kobe was not your child. On the all NBA first team the last 2 years, they were togather side by side. Not on the all Defensive first team thou, Shaq didnt make that :biggrin:


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

Travis76 said:


> Trust me, im a Heat/Shaq fan, he is one of my favourite players ever.


Nice Laker avatar Heat/Shaq fan.... :clown:  :laugh: :naughty: :krazy:


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

I feel what you're sayin, I agree with you, but trust me...no one cares. Shaq can be as big an ahole as he wants, he can ridicule kobe all he wants and no one cares. If Kobe even made one comment like Shaq does, everyone would care and make a big deal out of it. It's just one of those double standards you have to live with. :yes:


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## Cambridgeshire (Jan 15, 2005)

Agreed, Shaq is often found to make low-witted comments. Given he isn't the brighest guy in the NBA.


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

Rat
Punk
Mark
Rapist
Wannabe (Jordan)
Overrated
Loser (he will be when his team doesnt make the playoffs)
Selfish
Ungrateful

Its not like people are just making this **** up!!!:biggrin: 

He really is *all* of those things!!!


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

ive been saying that for years, shaq is really the one to blame. he's so childish, he can't take any critisims from anyone. kobe can, kobe can go through alot of craps people given him, and just keep it quiet to himself. i feel bad for kobe because even the media guys (except jim gray) constantly backing up shaq and bashing kobe.

people think that phil jackson was on shaq's side, and hated kobe. the real reason i think being phil knows that shaq is a cry baby. he cant take anything from anyone. while kobe can. so he thought the best way to keep the lakers going "smoothly" without totally blowing up would be to sided with shaq, since kobe would more likely than shaq to keep craps within himself.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I think people stopped taking Shaq's proclamations to the media seriously in like 98. And he knows this. So he just says **** to say ****.
It's not like Kobe who when he says **** you have to take it a little more seriously because dude is a lot more serious than Shaq.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> I think people stopped taking Shaq's proclamations to the media seriously in like 98. And he knows this. So he just says **** to say ****.
> It's not like Kobe who when he says **** you have to take it a little more seriously because dude is a lot more serious than Shaq.


i think shaq is using that as an excuse to talk ****s about kobe and other things. 
when he makes THAT MANY comments about kobe, u know shaq is bitter. u know he cares.


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

Stop whining, Kobe made his grave, now he has to lie in it

And I can't believe anyone would buy into Kobe actually saying good things about Shaq, jesus, the guy only says that stuff so that he doesent get attacked by more people for being bitter. He thinks if he sounds nice while Shaq is going off on him, it makes Kobe look like the good guy. Sorry but I'm not falling into Kobe's little trap

If Kobe would have never ratted Shaq out to the cops, Shaq might not have a reason to **** all over Kobe


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## Midnight_Marauder (Dec 1, 2003)

As long as people keep asking him about Kobe....he will say how he feels...


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

Midnight_Marauder said:


> As long as people keep asking him about Kobe....he will say how he feels...


As he should, this is america and it's called Free Speech


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

Nique21 said:


> Stop whining, Kobe made his grave, now he has to lie in it
> 
> And I can't believe anyone would buy into Kobe actually saying good things about Shaq, jesus, the guy only says that stuff so that he doesent get attacked by more people for being bitter. He thinks if he sounds nice while Shaq is going off on him, it makes Kobe look like the good guy. Sorry but I'm not falling into Kobe's little trap
> 
> If Kobe would have never ratted Shaq out to the cops, Shaq might not have a reason to **** all over Kobe



typical kobe hater....everything nice kobe says is a trap. everything not nice kobe says is serious. what can the man say then?


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

Sith said:


> i think shaq is using that as an excuse to talk ****s about kobe and other things.
> when he makes THAT MANY comments about kobe, u know shaq is bitter. u *know he cares.*


He cares about making sure that *EVERYONE* knows that Kobe rode his coattails!!!

Which is true!!!


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

Nique21 said:


> As he should, this is america and it's called Free Speech



yes freedom of speech. about u let kobe talk some ****s about shaq and see how shaq and kobe haters react? why is shaq the only one allowed to talk mad ****s about kobe?


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

Sith said:


> yes freedom of speech. about u let kobe talk some ****s about shaq and see how shaq and kobe haters react? why is shaq the only one allowed to talk mad ****s about kobe?


Maybe because Shaq is pi**ed at Kobe for something Kobe did to Shaq? And Kobe isn't going to say anything back because he knows he did something wrong to Shaq and escalating it more will make things worse.

Kobe started the fire against Shaq and if Kobe wants to put more wood into the fire, then let him, but be careful. Shaq is mad because Kobe burned him without any reason except the fact that Kobe didn't like Shaq and said somethings that he knew was wrong to say.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Nique21 said:


> As he should, this is america and it's called Free Speech


Yes, and Shaq sounds stupider by the minute. As did Tmac when he told the world he slacked off last season.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

tatahbenitez said:


> Maybe because Shaq is pi**ed at Kobe for something Kobe did to Shaq? And Kobe isn't going to say anything back because he knows he did something wrong to Shaq and escalating it more will make things worse.
> 
> Kobe started the fire against Shaq and if Kobe wants to put more wood into the fire, then let him, but be careful. Shaq is mad because Kobe burned him without any reason except the fact that Kobe didn't like Shaq and said somethings that he knew was wrong to say.


FYI, everything you just wrote isn't the least bit true.

EDIT: spelling


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## sweet_constipation (Jul 3, 2004)

IV said:


> I feel what you're sayin, I agree with you, but trust me...*no one cares. Shaq can be as big an ahole as he wants, he can ridicule kobe all he wants and no one cares*. If Kobe even made one comment like Shaq does, everyone would care and make a big deal out of it. It's just one of those double standards you have to live with. :yes:



WRONG HOMIE!
I care......
There are some of us that have never liked either of the two.

That said, Kobe is much more well-spoken so the dumb, yet funny, quotes from Shaq will always "out-do" anything Kobe says.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

sweet_constipation said:


> WRONG HOMIE!
> I care......
> There are some of us that have never liked either of the two.
> 
> That said, Kobe is much more well-spoken so the dumb, yet funny, quotes from Shaq will always "out-do" anything Kobe says.


 :clap: :| :greatjob:


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## Charlotte_______ (May 18, 2003)

EHL said:


> Yes, and Shaq sounds stupider by the minute. As did Tmac when he told the world he slacked off last season.


Could we not metnion T-Mac's name in a Shaq and Kobe conversation?


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## Blink4 (Jan 17, 2005)

HEATLUNATIC said:


> He cares about making sure that *EVERYONE* knows that Kobe rode his coattails!!!
> 
> Which is true!!!


yup, just like dwayne wade is riding shaqs cottails. kobe and wade both truly suck, they just look good cuz they have or had shaq. :banana:


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Blink4 said:


> yup, just like dwayne wade is riding shaqs cottails. kobe and wade both truly suck, they just look good cuz they have or had shaq. :banana:


It's funny how Wade and Kobe ride Shaq's coattails, but they are usually the one making all the plays to beat the better teams. Can't count how many times, I was a spectator, just like Shaq while Kobe, or Wade took over or was hitting the game winning shot.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

EHL said:


> FYI, everything you just wrote isn't the least bit true.
> 
> EDIT: spelling


You mean Kobe didn't tell the police that Shaq paid off women he slept with as not to get caught or be sued by one of his other women? Or that Shaq was investigated because of what Kobe said? Then tell me what happened, I would really like to know what "really happened".


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

tatahbenitez said:


> You mean Kobe didn't tell the police that Shaq paid off women he slept with as not to get caught or be sued by one of his other women? Or that Shaq was investigated because of what Kobe said? Then tell me what happened, I would really like to know what "really happened".


Of course that never happened I mean... **** even apologized for it on national TV!


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> You mean Kobe didn't tell the police that Shaq paid off women he slept with as not to get caught or be sued by one of his other women? Or that Shaq was investigated because of what Kobe said? Then tell me what happened, I would really like to know what "really happened".



What's not true is you making the beef between the two of them all Kobe's fault. You're completely naive if you think their differences began with what Kobe told the cops. You have to hold Shaq responsible for just as much of the problems over the years caused by them not getting along.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

Shaq is one of the most beloved people in sports,


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

IV said:


> What's not true is you making the beef between the two of them all Kobe's fault. You're completely naive if you think their differences began with what Kobe told the cops. You have to hold Shaq responsible for just as much of the problems over the years caused by them not getting along.


The conflict between Kobe and Shaq wasn't all Kobe's fault , but telling the police that Shaq pays off women he sleeps with is not a good way to patch up their differences, isn't it? Actually, if someone did that to me just to try to get out of his own problems would get me very angry too. Especially someone who I didn't like in the first place.

And I didn't say their differences started with the cops, the incident probably escalated their feud to the Nth degree. And I don't see anyone saying that what Kobe said never happened.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> Of course that never happened I mean... **** even apologized for it on national TV!


I remember Kobe said he did try to apologize to Shaq, on an interview with ESPN, but Kobe was "too busy" to get a hold of his "old friend" to call him up and say he was sorry.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> The conflict between Kobe and Shaq wasn't all Kobe's fault , but telling the police that Shaq pays off women he sleeps with is not a good way to patch up their differences, isn't it? Actually, if someone did that to me just to try to get out of his own problems would get me very angry too. Especially someone who I didn't like in the first place.


Of course not, and that's not what happened. The police lied to Kobe and told him that everything he said would be confidential. They were recording the conversation the entire time, and plotted to expose any and everything he said. Kobe did not volunteer Shaq's name, it was drawn out of him. He told the police he did understand why the girl would say he raped her. He said she must want something, is there a way I can make this go away. The cops asked him what he ment, he said he could offer to pay her money to keep quiet. The cops asked him why he thought that, he said he had heard of players doing that before. They asked him who, he did not want to answer them. They told him it was okay, that he could trust them. Kobe's ******* believed them and said he heard Shaq say he's done it before. I don't think he entended to put Shaq's business out there like that. I believe he used very poor judgement in trusting the police, I wouldn't recomend anyone do that. In fact, he wasn't really the one who publicized Shaq's business, the cops did by telling the media in hopes of making Kobe look like a bad person to strengthen their case.



> And I didn't say their differences started with the cops, the incident probably escalated their fued to the Nth degree. And I don't see anyone saying that what Kobe said never happened.


You did say that Kobe started the fire between him and Shaq. I don't think that is true.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Charlotte_______ said:


> Could we not metnion T-Mac's name in a Shaq and Kobe conversation?


 Lol @ someone bringing up tmac. Pathetic.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

I think some of you guys are underestimating Shaq. He's pretty smart and knows exactly how to handle himself in the media. Everybody loves him. He's as media-savvy as Jordan was, just in a different way.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> I think some of you guys are underestimating Shaq. He's pretty smart and knows exactly how to handle himself in the media. Everybody loves him. He's as media-savvy as Jordan was, just in a different way.


Most people who hate Shaq, hate him because he's the best! Some people can't stand to see a guy with that much swagger walk around and boost like I'm going to win, and then go out and kick some tail.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

IV said:


> Of course not, and that's not what happened. The police lied to Kobe and told him that everything he said would be confidential. They were recording the conversation the entire time, and plotted to expose any and everything he said. Kobe did not volunteer Shaq's name, it was drawn out of him. He told the police he did understand why the girl would say he raped her. He said she must want something, is there a way I can make this go away. The cops asked him what he ment, he said he could offer to pay her money to keep quiet. The cops asked him why he thought that, he said he had heard of players doing that before. They asked him who, he did not want to answer them. They told him it was okay, that he could trust them. Kobe's ******* believed them and said he heard Shaq say he's done it before. I don't think he entended to put Shaq's business out there like that. I believe he used very poor judgement in trusting the police, I wouldn't recomend anyone do that. In fact, he wasn't really the one who publicized Shaq's business, the cops did by telling the media in hopes of making Kobe look like a bad person to strengthen their case.


So it was the big bad police who tricked innocent Kobe to give names of other players who slept with other women and paid them off so they wouldn't be prosecuted. There is no way Kobe would have done that to Shaq.

That is a load of bull. Kobe was afraid of what was happening to him and was "willing" to tell the police anything to try to get out of his predicament. (There was the complete police report on Kobes interview a while back, if anyone can post it again we can find out if Kobe was "tricked" by the police or if he was just trying to get off the charges by giving the police something else juicy.)

It seems Kobe was not at fault about anything. You can believe that, I believe something else.





> You did say that Kobe started the fire between him and Shaq. I don't think that is true.


Yes, I did say Kobe started the fire. But there were already embers in the pit of Shaq and Kobe feud. What Kobe said to the police started the fire.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> So it was the big bad police who tricked innocent Kobe to give names of other players who slept with other women and paid them off so they wouldn't be prosecuted. There is no way Kobe would have done that to Shaq.


what are you talking about?



> That is a load of bull. Kobe was afraid of what was happening to him and was "willing" to tell the police anything to try to get out of his predicament. (There was the complete police report on Kobes interview a while back, if anyone can post it again we can find out if Kobe was "tricked" by the police or if he was just trying to get off the charges by giving the police something else juicy.)


You still wouldn't believe it because everything I just told you was from the report.



> It seems Kobe was not at fault about anything. You can believe that, I believe something else.


Now you're back tracking and not address my comments towards you. I've said Shaq is to blame as well as Kobe. I in no way claimed Kobe is not at fault. I believe he used poor judgement, I just don't think he maliciously mentioned Shaq's name. How would that benefit him? If anything, it made things worse.



> Yes, I did say Kobe started the fire. But there were already embers in the pit of Shaq and Kobe feud. What Kobe said to the police started the fire.


Haven't you been watching the Lakers before 2003? Don't you know that they haven't gotten along for years. Are those the embers you're refering too? Get real dude, they never like each other, this was just another reason for them to grow further apart.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

I don't know either personally, so I'm not about to talk about peoples character that I don't know. However what I do know is that Kobe is a rat, and you know what happens to rats.


Now Shaq while not perfect, has left me with a favourable impression for life after the following occurance....

Last year when after a close game against Toronto, where Vince Carter went to the rim to tie the game in the last seconds, got fouled and no call... then in the post game after his team won, Shaq went on to say.....

"People pay good money to see us play, then the referees try and take over the ******* game" says Shaq

Reporter responded " Shaq we're on live right now!"

Shaq responds "I don't give a ****" 

Shaq is wicked to me, he stood up for the other team even though his team won


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

Shaq is absolutely hilarious in the media. And he knows how to handle himself. 

How many contreversies has shaq been in? Outside of Kobe and what he said to the police (and even that the media didnt care that much about for shaqs side) shaq hasnt been in any sort of problem with anything contreversy wise in the media. 13 seasons how outspoken how he has without a problem is pretty remarkable.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Travis76 said:


> Whats this talk i hear about Kobe being arogant? And Kobe being selfish? Do you see the things Shaq tells reporters. Trust me, im a Heat/Shaq fan, he is one of my favourite players ever. But this is getting so stupid, where he constantly refers to Kobe as his child. And puts him in the same context as penny hardaway. Ya ok maybe penny didnt work out to well, but look at how good Kobe is. Shaq acts like he did everything on his own in L.A. Just like Kobe, Shaqs never won anything on his own, honestly, Shaq is such a moron when he talks about Kobe being his "child". Atleast Kobe gives Shaq credit about his game, Shaq on the other hand, just tries so hard to be funny, to tell you the truth, i dont even find him funny. He is one of those guys you just laugh at there jokes because your scared not too. Shaq needs to shut up and let go off the fact that Kobe and him didnt work out, Kobe was not your child. On the all NBA first team the last 2 years, they were togather side by side. Not on the all Defensive first team thou, Shaq didnt make that :biggrin:


Personally, I love it when Shaq goes off on Kobe. I can't get enough of it. One of my favorite moments of the season, was that first time he fouled Kobe, where he hit him real hard w/ the body, and turned to the camera and winked. :clap:


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> Personally, I love it when Shaq goes off on Kobe. I can't get enough of it. One of my favorite moments of the season, was that first time he fouled Kobe, where he hit him real hard w/ the body, and turned to the camera and winked. :clap:


personally, i love it when you make intelligent comments. i can't get enough of them. ah wait, when has that ever happened? :clap:


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

sherako said:


> personally, i love it when you make intelligent comments. i can't get enough of them. ah wait, when has that ever happened? :clap:


You're just upset about me dissing Mariah Carey.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

> Shaq is absolutely hilarious in the media


shaq is an idiot, but for some reason he gets a free pass to talk out of his ***. 

all this garbage about kobe (I dislike em both so don't go there) has to stop... he just makes a bigger fool of himself. 

the stuff with yao, "sleeping with" williams sisters, about sabonis, about "the queens" etc. the guy has no class, or at least he just doesn't think what he says.

edit: sleeping with


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

kobe is arrogant. he cares about himself. he is the worst kind of person because he is fake. he would hate u and act like he likes you so he can shyt on you like he did shaq. its no coincidence he signed back to the lakers a day after they traded shaq. then he went on TV and said he wanted to apoligize and made some stupid excuse because he had shaqs number, he just donesn't like him so he didnt call him. the ungratefull ******* made the clippers agree to play in a court closer to him home then after that turned them down. then he criticized the laker organization for the plane they provoded him to go to colorado when he had to deal with his case. then he criticized malone for keeping the organization on hold with his decision when he did the same thing last year when he had them waiting for his free agency decision throughout the season. as Nas said , "these are our heroes". yea right. with heroes like him who needs enemies?


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

el_Diablo said:


> shaq is an idiot, but for some reason he gets a free pass to talk out of his ***.
> 
> all this garbage about kobe (I dislike em both so don't go there) has to stop... he just makes a bigger fool of himself.
> 
> the stuff with yao, "sleeping" williams sisters, about sabonis, about "the queens" etc. the guy has no class, or at least he just doesn't think what he says.



what are u talkin about? he likes Yao. and what "sleeping" williams sisters are u talking about?


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> what are u talkin about? he likes Yao. and what "sleeping" williams sisters are u talking about?


about yao: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/news/2003/01/10/shaq_yao_ap/

I can't find a link, but I believe shaq once said that he had slept with williams sisters or one of them or something like that...


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

el_Diablo said:


> about yao: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/news/2003/01/10/shaq_yao_ap/
> 
> I can't find a link, but I believe shaq once said that he had slept with williams sisters or one of them or something like that...


He said he slept w/ Venus on some radio talk show in LA last year or the year before. It was a joke, but it got played up big. He then came out and said he was just screwing around and he hadn't slept w/ her.

Btw/ if they were to have kids, I think they'd be the greatest PF/C prospects and or Offensive and Defensive Line prospects ever.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

duncan2k5 said:


> what are u talkin about? he likes Yao. and what "sleeping" williams sisters are u talking about?


Where have you been the last 3 years, Shaq talked so much **** about Yao for a while, all because everybody liked Yao more. Cuz Yao got voted to the all-star game in 2003 and 2004 over Shaq. He made fun of chinese people by making some stupid sounds to make it look like speaking chinese is easy.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

oh i remember that. shaq was kidding, though i could see how it would be offensive to chineese ppl. but i dont think it was that bad. im from st.croix and these states ppl always try to mock my accent in jest but i dont take it hard or as an offense, its just not funny.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

el_Diablo said:


> shaq is an idiot, but for some reason he gets a free pass to talk out of his ***.
> 
> all this garbage about kobe (I dislike em both so don't go there) has to stop... he just makes a bigger fool of himself.
> 
> ...


Shaq just acts like he's not smart. He certainly fooled you.


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## Mavs41 (Feb 22, 2005)

I totally agree with your view on Shaq. He's a media whore who can't live without the attention. He acts like he invented the game of basketball. He just goes around like he owns the game. If he didn't have such an imposing frame nobody would care. It's a game where members of the media fight to be Shaq's best buddy. Over laugh at him lame comments and suck up to him like you wouldn't believe. I agree SHAQ, JUST SHUT UP!!!


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

rwj333 said:


> Shaq just acts like he's not smart. He certainly fooled you.


he fooled me into disliking him? ok..

(obviously me not liking him won't make him sleep badly but still...)


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

Why is it that Shaq can say negative things about the "Queens", Doug Christie and the Spurs and it's ok, but when he talks about Jesus "Kobe" Christ, he gets bashed to high hell?? Hmmm...


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

lets see you try to make him shut up. the man can back up his trash talk game after game.


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## Ice Nine (Apr 3, 2004)

Kobe can shut Shaq up by dropping 60 points on him, while blowing out the Heat. I believe Jordan taught the same lesson to Jeff Van Gundy. :biggrin:


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

tatahbenitez said:


> You mean Kobe didn't tell the police that Shaq paid off women he slept with as not to get caught or be sued by one of his other women? Or that Shaq was investigated because of what Kobe said? Then tell me what happened, I would really like to know what "really happened".


No one knows. That was the point.


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## BBB (Jan 19, 2005)

What's best is for everyone to take his comments less seriously. It's entertainment, just enjoy the show and laugh at his stupidity.


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

EHL said:


> No one knows. That was the point.


This is just funny he's in denial. Kobe said he was going to apologize for it and "No one knows". :clap: 

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> This is just funny he's in denial. Kobe said he was going to apologize for it and "No one knows". :clap:
> 
> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


You didn't hear it correctly. I know you're pretty young, but that's no excuse.


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

I don't know about the rest of you guys (and I seem to be in the minority here), but I personally find Shaq hilarious. He is deadpan, and comes up with the craziest things to do during games. (example: After taking a fall out of bounds during a game earlier in the season, he took a pepsi that he spilled and started nonchalantly drinking from it.)

He is an entertainer and a comedian, but one who has never been afraid to back up his actions on the court. Has he behaved a little immaturely in regards to Kobe? Yes. But he is a proud man and has seemingly been personally insulted by Kobe on a few occasions--and not in the humorous fashion in which he generally acts.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

EHL said:


> No one knows. That was the point.


I think at this point it is pretty much taken as fact that Kobe made those comments. I don't think that can really be denied anymore.

Personally, I find Shaq to be very funny. And I think he is much smarter than most people give him credit for. He obviously has a very strong disdain for Kobe and everyone knows it, so why should he hide it? I'd be talking crap about Kobe whenever someone asked me about him as well if he tried to rat me out to the policeell. Their basketball conflicts aside, that went way over the line and is un-forgivable.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

JNice said:


> Personally, I find Shaq to be very funny. And I think he is much smarter than most people give him credit for. He obviously has a very strong disdain for Kobe and everyone knows it, so why should he hide it? I'd be talking crap about Kobe whenever someone asked me about him as well if he tried to rat me out to the policeell. Their basketball conflicts aside, that went way over the line and is un-forgivable.


Shaq is a moron. The guy has the mentality of a 10 year old. It's all about him in his mind.
Remember the infamous "I'm like Halle Berry" comment? Guess what, Shaq. Very few teams were willing to take your gigantic contract and your demands for an extention.

Yup, you are the best thing since sliced bread. Your trade value was Odom, Butler and change. Whoopeee.

I love the player. I think Shaq is one of the greatest players of all time. Still, he is a spoiled, lazy-***, ungratefull, lazy-***, egotistical, lazy-*** waste of a talent.

Shaq could be the greatest player ever. He is far from that. The reason: he is lazy.
I saw a 60 (yeah, i know) year-old Kareem dive for loose balls in the finals. A guy who couldn't stand losing playing patty-cake.
"The playoffs all that matters", "I'll make them when it counts" and all the other BS Shaq has been delivering through the years are really starting to get on my nerves.

How many times Kobe, Horry, Fisher and others saved the Lakers because you coulnd't be trusted with the ball in the final minutes, you big ape?
Can't you recognize it?
Lazy-*** ungratefull motha.

You can be an idol in your own mind, but in MINE, you'll be, at best, the 6t best Laker ever, for Baylor, West, Kareem, Magic and James wipe the floor with your fat-***.

There. I've said it.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Diophantos said:


> I don't know about the rest of you guys (and I seem to be in the minority here), but I personally find Shaq hilarious. He is deadpan, and comes up with the craziest things to do during games. (example: After taking a fall out of bounds during a game earlier in the season, he took a pepsi that he spilled and started nonchalantly drinking from it.)
> 
> He is an entertainer and a comedian, but one who has never been afraid to back up his actions on the court. Has he behaved a little immaturely in regards to Kobe? Yes. But he is a proud man and has seemingly been personally insulted by Kobe on a few occasions--and not in the humorous fashion in which he generally acts.


I agree w/ this post in its entirety.


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

EHL said:


> You didn't hear it correctly. I know you're pretty young, but that's no excuse.


Still in denial so you attack my age... so who is acting thier age?


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Diophantos said:


> I don't know about the rest of you guys (and I seem to be in the minority here), but I personally find Shaq hilarious. He is deadpan, and comes up with the craziest things to do during games. (example: After taking a fall out of bounds during a game earlier in the season, he took a pepsi that he spilled and started nonchalantly drinking from it.)
> 
> He is an entertainer and a comedian, but one who has never been afraid to back up his actions on the court. Has he behaved a little immaturely in regards to Kobe? Yes. But he is a proud man and has seemingly been personally insulted by Kobe on a few occasions--and not in the humorous fashion in which he generally acts.



I think Shaq is funny as well. As much as we try to make sports into something more serious then it is (atleast some us: see PauloCatarino's rant) it's still entertainment and Shaq, whether you like him or not, is one hell of an entertainer.

In addition, in his defense for all his outlandish comments the dude by all accounts one of the most liked players by his peers, media, and (except for BBB.net it seems) fans.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Shaq is like a woman scorned, and we all know that hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. 

He's a sensitive guy, and he just can't get over Kobe. Hopefully he doesn't go fatal attraction on Kobe's pets.


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## DaBobZ (Sep 22, 2003)

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> Still in denial so you attack my age... so who is acting thier age?


That was an easy one from EHL OK...
Still... he is right no one knows and he wasn't in denial.

EHL is a great poster IMO


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Shaq is a moron. The guy has the mentality of a 10 year old. It's all about him in his mind.
> Remember the infamous "I'm like Halle Berry" comment? Guess what, Shaq. Very few teams were willing to take your gigantic contract and your demands for an extention.


Heehee, and who took him? And who has the best record in the East? 

It's tough to see people appreciate Kobe's absolutely plastic comments more than Shaq's "stupid" but honest ones. Is honesty and realism valued this lowly in the USA? When you're asked a question, you should answer with what you really feel about the situation, and not think how the media will take it. Shaq is one of the people who does just that, and obviously, there will always be the people who value tactfulness more than honesty, so there will always be bashers. Besides, Shaq doesn't talk about Kobe when he's not asked about Kobe, so it's not like he's starting ****.


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

DaBobZ said:


> That was an easy one from EHL OK...
> Still... he is right no one knows and he wasn't in denial.
> Kobe apologized for cheating not for something else.
> 
> ...


I'm not talking about what he apologized for initially to his wife and fans. I am talking about when he went on National TV for all those interviews right before they played the Heat the first time this season. He said he would try to apologize to Shaq as a man for what happened.

http://celtics.bostonherald.com/otherNBA/view.bg?articleid=59212&format=

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-12/17/content_400980.htm

http://dailynews.muzi.com/ll/english/1341330.shtml

http://www.blackwebportal.com/wire/DA.cfm?ArticleID=2067

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Kobe+to+apologize+to+shaq&btnG=Google+Search

I don't think any more proof is needed. It is an accepted fact **** mentioned Shaq's name to the cops.


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## thegza (Feb 18, 2003)

IV said:


> It's funny how Wade and Kobe ride Shaq's coattails, but they are usually the one making all the plays to beat the better teams. Can't count how many times, I was a spectator, just like Shaq while Kobe, or Wade took over or was hitting the game winning shot.


Exactly. Kobe has won so many games for the Lakers that it's ridiculous to say that Shaq won three rings on his own. On countless amount of times, Kobe took over and was clutch. And here, I'll post exactly what I left in the Laker forum regarding this topic:

Ill be the first to admit that I'm a Shaq hater, and I don't care what anyone has to say about me but that's just the way I feel about him. I never really loved him off the court, and supported him when he left, but his arrogant swagger and his comments have really changed my opinion about him. Of course, I'd take the glory days of Diesel back in LA - but just the way that he acts and talks about the team makes me want to puke. He makes it seem like he won three rings all on his own, and he owes his former teammates no respect for being there with him. It's a joke, I say.

I wish him the best of luck and would like him to win another ring, but not at the expense of hearing him boast about it and also always taking that little cheap shot at Kobe Bryant. Either by not mentioning him by the name and saying 'that guy', or just praising Wade and saying that it's his team which wasn't the case in LA with Kobe, all of that childish bullcrap.

Shaq needs someone to humble him a little, which I'll be praying for come playoff time. There's a little team in Detroit that are defending their title that I'm counting on, too.


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## DaBobZ (Sep 22, 2003)

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> I'm not talking about what he apologized for initially to his wife and fans. I am talking about when he went on National TV for all those interviews right before they played the Heat the first time this season. He said he would try to apologize to Shaq as a man for what happened.


Oops... 
I noticed that later on. Check I've edited my post before your answer...
I didn't reed the whole thread, now i got it.
I have no clue about what he really said to Shaq and whether it was what he told the press or not. I know both these guys became masters at manipulating the medias and they've been saying so much BS to the press i n their carrer I really can't tell.
Sorry but I only believe in what I can see and until then I love EHL's statement.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

i agree shaq is funny, probably the funniest guy since rodman or barkley in the media. but he needs to stop thinking there is a leaguewide conspiracy against him and stop taking things personally.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

HEATLUNATIC said:


> He cares about making sure that *EVERYONE* knows that Kobe rode his coattails!!!
> 
> Which is true!!!


Oh please, you're the biggest coattail rider on this site.

Last season it was, "BOOOO! Shaq's fat! Lakers suck!"

Now it's, "Oh wow Shaq, I want to suck your big fat black...."


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## D-Wade (Feb 20, 2003)

Travis76 said:


> Trust me, im a Heat/Shaq fan


In other words, you're just one of those bandwagon kids who hops from team to team. I mean, just look at your avatar...


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> I'm not talking about what he apologized for initially to his wife and fans. I am talking about when he went on National TV for all those interviews right before they played the Heat the first time this season. He said he would try to apologize to Shaq as a man for what happened.
> 
> http://celtics.bostonherald.com/otherNBA/view.bg?articleid=59212&format=
> 
> ...


No it's not accepted fact. Listen to the interviews carefully. Don't take ESPN's word for it, judge for yourself. I wouldn't be surprised if it's true, but legally he couldn't deny or admit to it at the time.


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## LakerLunatic (Mar 1, 2005)

Good to see so many ppl are into this, oh ya and im not a ****ing bandwagon jumper you moron, i liked the Heat last year because of Odom,Butler and Wade. So when they traded Shaq, it kept me liking them, and also liking the Lakers because of who they aquired, OH my avitar is the Lakers symbol. I dont even know how to respond to such a smart remark...


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

dp


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

EHL said:


> No it's not accepted fact. Listen to the interviews carefully. Don't take ESPN's word for it, judge for yourself. I wouldn't be surprised if it's true, but legally he couldn't deny or admit to it at the time.


What was Kobe going to apologize for then?

“ I have nothing against [Shaq]. I'd definitely love to sit down and talk with him. I don't know, maybe that'll happen. ... *I never intended to involve him in my troubles. I'd apologize to him for that. *”
— Kobe Bryant


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> What was Kobe going to apologize for then?
> 
> “ I have nothing against [Shaq]. I'd definitely love to sit down and talk with him. I don't know, maybe that'll happen. ... *I never intended to involve him in my troubles. I'd apologize to him for that. *”
> — Kobe Bryant


Doesn't this support my original point? Notice how he doesn't admit to it, he just says that he's sorry Shaq's name got involved in the matter, which can be interpreted as Kobe saying he's sorry the AP released this information about Shaq to the public. 

Again, I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe did name Shaq in the investigation, I just don't think it's fair to crucify him without any evidence.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

EHL said:


> Doesn't this support my original point? Notice how he doesn't admit to it, he just says that he's sorry Shaq's name got involved in the matter, which can be interpreted as Kobe saying he's sorry the AP released this information about Shaq to the public.
> 
> Again, I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe did name Shaq in the investigation, I just don't think it's fair to crucify him without any evidence.


Even if Shaq's name did come up, I don't think it was with any malicious intent on Kobe's part, he was worried, he was freaking out a bit, it just slipped out. People act like he plotted to incriminate Shaq or something.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

i only have one question: who will be jocking shaq when the pistons/spurs sweep the heat out of the playoffs. wade is great, but he ain't no kobe. its lights out for miami i'm afraid.


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## LBJthefuturegoat (Nov 13, 2004)

EHL said:


> Doesn't this support my original point? Notice how he doesn't admit to it, he just says that he's sorry Shaq's name got involved in the matter, which can be interpreted as Kobe saying he's sorry the AP released this information about Shaq to the public.
> 
> Again, I wouldn't be surprised if Kobe did name Shaq in the investigation, I just don't think it's fair to crucify him without any evidence.


Again

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/236950p-203436c.html

I could post a million links to the facts and **** not denying anything why would anyone think otherwise but a **** stan?


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> Again
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/236950p-203436c.html
> 
> I could post a million links to the facts and **** not deny anything why would anyone think otherwise but a **** stan?


see my 10:30 post, can't you cut the guy some slack?

And anyways, why isn't the real issue that Shaq cheats on his wife!? Everyone wants to crucify Kobe for breaking the "guy code" and "ratting out" shaq, but no one wants to criticize Shaq for breaking one of the commandments?!


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

madskillz1_99 said:


> see my 10:30 post, can't you cut the guy some slack?
> 
> And anyways, why isn't the real issue that Shaq cheats on his wife!? Everyone wants to crucify Kobe for breaking the "guy code" and "ratting out" shaq, but no one wants to criticize Shaq for breaking one of the commandments?!


because shaq is accessible, so people forgive him for all his sins.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

madskillz1_99 said:


> see my 10:30 post, can't you cut the guy some slack?
> 
> And anyways, why isn't the real issue that Shaq cheats on his wife!? Everyone wants to crucify Kobe for breaking the "guy code" and "ratting out" shaq, but no one wants to criticize Shaq for breaking one of the commandments?!


Kobe saying it doesnt make it true. Just like there is no evidence Kobe said it to knowingly screw shaq (EHL's arguement), there is no evidence at all that the allegations made by Kobe are true


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> Again
> 
> http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/236950p-203436c.html
> 
> I could post a million links to the facts and **** not denying anything why would anyone think otherwise but a **** stan?


Er, what? Your links don't say anything different. If they do, you better quote them, I certainly don't see it.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> Kobe saying it doesnt make it true. Just like there is no evidence Kobe said it to knowingly screw shaq (EHL's arguement), there is no evidence at all that the allegations made by Kobe are true


So you think Kobe just made it up? What would his motive have been?!

Obviously i don't know for a fact, but lets just say that I would NOT be at all surprised if ANY NBA player cheated on their wife from time to time, Shaq included. And if you would be, then you're just naive.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

madskillz1_99 said:


> So you think Kobe just made it up? What would his motive have been?!
> 
> Obviously i don't know for a fact, but lets just say that I would NOT be at all surprised if ANY NBA player cheated on their wife from time to time, Shaq included. And if you would be, then you're just naive.


I have no clue if its true or not, and I dont really care. Its between shaq and his wife. I dont take Kobe's word though. 

and motive. I dont know. He was being questioned about a rape. Anything to draw attention away from himself would be a motive. Also him saying he should have payed her off makes it sound like it wasnt rape and makes it sound to the cops like she wants money (which she obviously did)

Everybody loves shaq around the league. He seems a lot more trustworthy than Kobe thats for sure.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> I have no clue if its true or not, and I dont really care. Its between shaq and his wife. I dont take Kobe's word though.
> 
> and motive. I dont know. He was being questioned about a rape. Anything to draw attention away from himself would be a motive. Also him saying he should have payed her off makes it sound like it wasnt rape and makes it sound to the cops like she wants money (which she obviously did)
> 
> Everybody loves shaq around the league. He seems a lot more trustworthy than Kobe thats for sure.


Whatever........ I want to call you naive, but I won't.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

madskillz1_99 said:


> Whatever........ I want to call you naive, but I won't.


what. nba players cheat on their wives. Of course they do. 

But why do you want the media the "crucify" (HATE using the word, but cant think of another) shaq because of allegations made by one player that nobody has any clue if its true or not? 

[laker fans]They should crucify shaq like they do Kobe. Its not fair.    [end laker fans]

Yet the only reason the media may have to say anything bad about shaq is on something that isnt even close to being proven as a fact. *YEA "CRUCIFY" HIM*


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

Can I use the favorite argument of the Kobe-supporters in supporting Shaq? ...Innocent til' proven guilty.


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

madskillz1_99 said:


> Whatever........ I want to call you naive, but I won't.


 Quit acting like such a *******. His argument is pretty sound and it's entirely plausible that Kobe would want to divert attention from his situation to somewhere else. What you don't want to understand is that Kobe's the one with the smoking gun when it comes to your "breaking the commandments"...he's a proven adulterer and though we may live in times where scholars will question how much of a prevalence established values have on society, the basic rules of trust and fidelity in marriage and friendship are almost ingrained in our DNA. That automatically makes Kobe the bad guy in everyone's eyes and that's the way it'll be for the rest of his life and rightly so I might add. Sure he's a great player but he's arrogant, has breached the basic rules of society in the worst possible way and so is being looked down upon. Suddenly you expect America to believe an adulterer calling out someone else ? Where in human nature would you find it possible for average Joe to believe Kobe, the adulterer, is also totally trustworthy when it comes to revealing Shaq's apparent misdemeanours with other women ? You're pathetic and so is Kobe if he claims he "never wanted Shaq to be a part of his troubles"...why the heck did he have to come out with crazy allegations then ? Bryant's a first rate idiot who is very talented but is too stupid in that he allows the media to get the best of him and turn him into this circus. I feel sorry for you Kobe fans because he always lets himself down not on the court but with his ridiculous off court shenanigans. Good luck on Thursday because after the Lakers got steam-rolled by the Sixers today, I'd say Kobe and his boys are about to be blasted out of the water by Shaq and Wade. At least KG will never have off-court baggage like Kobe will for the rest of his career and whether you like it or not, KG will always be a better player than Kobe. Believe me when I say that Kobe will never win another ring and forget MVP's. He doesn't deserve championships and I actually wish you fans and Kobe luck even getting near another championship just because that's about as close as you'll get to the gold. Now Kobe can't hide behind his Shaq-won rings anymore and will see what guys like AI, KG and T-Mac have had to have gone through all these years.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Travis76 said:


> Whats this talk i hear about Kobe being arogant? And Kobe being selfish? Do you see the things Shaq tells reporters. Trust me, im a Heat/Shaq fan, he is one of my favourite players ever. But this is getting so stupid, where he constantly refers to Kobe as his child. And puts him in the same context as penny hardaway. Ya ok maybe penny didnt work out to well, but look at how good Kobe is. Shaq acts like he did everything on his own in L.A. Just like Kobe, Shaqs never won anything on his own, honestly, Shaq is such a moron when he talks about Kobe being his "child". Atleast Kobe gives Shaq credit about his game, Shaq on the other hand, just tries so hard to be funny, to tell you the truth, i dont even find him funny. He is one of those guys you just laugh at there jokes because your scared not too. Shaq needs to shut up and let go off the fact that Kobe and him didnt work out, Kobe was not your child. On the all NBA first team the last 2 years, they were togather side by side. Not on the all Defensive first team thou, Shaq didnt make that :biggrin:


lol, Penny Haradway sell sneakers and still have great Royal fans. Being a true superstar is the player still has true superstar treatment despite his game is washed up.

I would take Penny's situation over Kobe anyday. Sure, 3 rings, but They didnt have Nike Air Kobe, they had Nike Air Penny and they recently just release the Nike Air Penny I New York Knicks colorway and some pathetic colorways but I will get them all? Kobe's 2k5? Dont LMAO, HK still have plently of 2k5.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

madskillz1_99 said:


> Even if Shaq's name did come up, I don't think it was with any malicious intent on Kobe's part, he was worried, he was freaking out a bit, it just slipped out. People act like he plotted to incriminate Shaq or something.


It shows Kobe only thinks about Kobe and he doesn't care about anyone else. If when you are worried or freaked out and your response is to thoughtlessly give up your teammate, its more evidence that you are a selfish and probably bad person.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

sherako said:


> i only have one question: who will be jocking shaq when the pistons/spurs sweep the heat out of the playoffs. wade is great, but he ain't no kobe. its lights out for miami i'm afraid.


Wade is a better basketball player than Kobe, not more talented, just a better basketball player, because he plays within a team framework.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

madskillz1_99 said:


> see my 10:30 post, can't you cut the guy some slack?
> 
> And anyways, why isn't the real issue that Shaq cheats on his wife!? Everyone wants to crucify Kobe for breaking the "guy code" and "ratting out" shaq, but no one wants to criticize Shaq for breaking one of the commandments?!


Not saying its right or its wrong, but the reason for this is because of the context, in addition to the lack of supporting evidence. The fact that it came up amid Kobe's own rape pre-trial made Shaq's misdeeds fall right off the radar. That's just how those things work.


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## @[email protected] (Jan 19, 2005)

Max Payne said:


> Quit acting like such a *******. His argument is pretty sound and it's entirely plausible that Kobe would want to divert attention from his situation to somewhere else. What you don't want to understand is that Kobe's the one with the smoking gun when it comes to your "breaking the commandments"...he's a proven adulterer and though we may live in times where scholars will question how much of a prevalence established values have on society, the basic rules of trust and fidelity in marriage and friendship are almost ingrained in our DNA. That automatically makes Kobe the bad guy in everyone's eyes and that's the way it'll be for the rest of his life and rightly so I might add. Sure he's a great player but he's arrogant, has breached the basic rules of society in the worst possible way and so is being looked down upon. Suddenly you expect America to believe an adulterer calling out someone else ? Where in human nature would you find it possible for average Joe to believe Kobe, the adulterer, is also totally trustworthy when it comes to revealing Shaq's apparent misdemeanours with other women ? You're pathetic and so is Kobe if he claims he "never wanted Shaq to be a part of his troubles"...why the heck did he have to come out with crazy allegations then ? Bryant's a first rate idiot who is very talented but is too stupid in that he allows the media to get the best of him and turn him into this circus. I feel sorry for you Kobe fans because he always lets himself down not on the court but with his ridiculous off court shenanigans. Good luck on Thursday because after the Lakers got steam-rolled by the Sixers today, I'd say Kobe and his boys are about to be blasted out of the water by Shaq and Wade. At least KG will never have off-court baggage like Kobe will for the rest of his career and whether you like it or not, KG will always be a better player than Kobe. Believe me when I say that Kobe will never win another ring and forget MVP's. He doesn't deserve championships and I actually wish you fans and Kobe luck even getting near another championship just because that's about as close as you'll get to the gold. Now Kobe can't hide behind his Shaq-won rings anymore and will see what guys like AI, KG and T-Mac have had to have gone through all these years.


 :clap: :clap:


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

some guy was talking about how kobe saved the lakers in many games. if it wasnt for shaq they wouldnt be in a position to win you idiot. lakers back then had a better record with shaq alone than with kobe alone. so shaq was the piston for that team. he carried it. he made most of those games close for kobe to hit those shots. and what would happen when he misses(like last year against houston)? shaq would grap the airball and save kobe's sorry behind. and just for proof that a kobe-led lakers sucked in those times...look at the finals. shaq shot over 60% to kobe's sorry 38. kobe took more shots and crazy shots at that. he handed the pistons the championship. he could not shand that prince was shutting him down so he wanted to go at prince everytime. now look where he is at. getting outdueled from iverson. get a life. and many of you kobe ball-lickers bashing shaq's comments were loving it when he was on your team. just admit he is biased. i bet if shaq were to call kobe's name in a conspiracy you all would get mad. just like phil jackson did. you kobe fans make me sick. afraid to admit when he is wrong. get a life. kobe doesnt care about you. he cartes about himself. get it straight. just because you are a fan of him doesnt mean you cant admit when he does something stupid or when he choked or when he sucks. i love my spurs but if any of them mess up, even duncan i bash the hell out of him. you guys need to learn what a fan is and stop being biased. it just makes you look stupid and ignorant.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

Max Payne said:


> Quit acting like such a *******. His argument is pretty sound and it's entirely plausible that Kobe would want to divert attention from his situation to somewhere else. What you don't want to understand is that Kobe's the one with the smoking gun when it comes to your "breaking the commandments"...he's a proven adulterer and though we may live in times where scholars will question how much of a prevalence established values have on society, the basic rules of trust and fidelity in marriage and friendship are almost ingrained in our DNA. That automatically makes Kobe the bad guy in everyone's eyes and that's the way it'll be for the rest of his life and rightly so I might add. Sure he's a great player but he's arrogant, has breached the basic rules of society in the worst possible way and so is being looked down upon. Suddenly you expect America to believe an adulterer calling out someone else ? Where in human nature would you find it possible for average Joe to believe Kobe, the adulterer, is also totally trustworthy when it comes to revealing Shaq's apparent misdemeanours with other women ? You're pathetic and so is Kobe if he claims he "never wanted Shaq to be a part of his troubles"...why the heck did he have to come out with crazy allegations then ? Bryant's a first rate idiot who is very talented but is too stupid in that he allows the media to get the best of him and turn him into this circus. I feel sorry for you Kobe fans because he always lets himself down not on the court but with his ridiculous off court shenanigans. Good luck on Thursday because after the Lakers got steam-rolled by the Sixers today, I'd say Kobe and his boys are about to be blasted out of the water by Shaq and Wade. At least KG will never have off-court baggage like Kobe will for the rest of his career and whether you like it or not, KG will always be a better player than Kobe. Believe me when I say that Kobe will never win another ring and forget MVP's. He doesn't deserve championships and I actually wish you fans and Kobe luck even getting near another championship just because that's about as close as you'll get to the gold. Now Kobe can't hide behind his Shaq-won rings anymore and will see what guys like AI, KG and T-Mac have had to have gone through all these years.


excellent post. somebody mail this guy a cookie. he deserves it. seriously. you laker fans are being blinded by kobe.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

duncan2k5 said:


> excellent post. *somebody mail this guy a cookie.* he deserves it. seriously. you laker fans are being blinded by kobe.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

Thank you all !


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## adam28z (Mar 16, 2005)

long time lakers fan here, but some of these lakers fans truly are blind...

anyhow, i posted this on the lakers board in response to the OP:



"you do realize that kobe is the reason why the lakers are in such a pathetic state? (phil jackson leaving in disgust with kobe is just more proof)

shaq has every reason in the world to say the things he has. you don't win in today's nba without a solid big man, or michael jordan. fact.

everyone knew this apparently, except for kobe, who decided to self destruct, pout / and sink the team for his own selfish contract interests. (even then, kobe gave us lakers fans the ultimate diss, not giving us any guarantees, proclaiming he was going to "test the free agent market"....and this was after all the crap he pulled? wow, thanks kobe!)

open your eyes, kobe's a foulkin cancer."


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

too many kids on this board. not in terms of age either. all i got to say is, kobe will win another ring, and that he is no cancer, he's just trying to find his way on his own path. it's a growing process with him really, but everybody should realize the man has faults of course, but why accentuate them like you guys are out here making a difference. makes no sense. 

"let he without sin cast the first stone." none of you suckers should be throwing rocks at all. for instance, i know tracy tanked last years season even if he didn't admit to it willingly himself, but i know he put that past him this year, and is playing great ball for the rockets trying to make them a contender. kobe was misguided at a time, but why vilify him for past mistakes, i mean even jordan possibly got his pop killed due to gambling problems. don't hear about that though. but according to some folks logic, people can't change. whatever. maybe i should do like my boy did and pull a copperfield, why hate when you can appreciate my friends. or should i say, my fellow posters.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

adam28z said:


> "you do realize that kobe is the reason why the lakers are in such a pathetic state? (phil jackson leaving in disgust with kobe is just more proof)


Do you even realize that Jackson said not more than two months ago that he doesn't believe Kobe participated in his departure (or Shaq’s for that matter)? Come on now, look it up. Here, I’ll make it easy for you: http://www.pe.com/sports/basketball/lakers/stories/PE_Sports_Local_lakers_bar_25.ed00.html 



> everyone knew this apparently, except for kobe, who decided to self destruct, pout / and sink the team for his own selfish contract interests.


What? The reason Shaq isn't a Laker anymore is because he wouldn't take less money during his contract negotiations that ended in February 2004.



> (even then, kobe gave us lakers fans the ultimate diss, not giving us any guarantees, proclaiming he was going to "test the free agent market"....and this was after all the crap he pulled? wow, thanks kobe!)


Kobe is the one that signed a 7 year contract with the Lakers. It's Shaq that demanded a trade from the Lakers _while under contract_. Hello, anyone home? 



> open your eyes, kobe's a foulkin cancer."


I can't imagine what Shaq is if Kobe's a cancer. What's worse than cancer? Herpes?


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## BBB (Jan 19, 2005)

What Kobe did was wrong. I don't see anyone can argue otherwise (unless of course he didn't actually mention Shaq during the investigations). But then again, I'm not going to "crucify" him for that. When faced with the prospects of jailtime and the loss of your livelihood and "life", I'm sure most would have in one way or another bring up a 3rd party to try to justify your actions. So, I blame him for such a horrible act, but I don't necessary blame him as much as some would do. 

And, whilst this isn't to downplay Kobe's sins, I just wanna ask, didn't Jordan commit a much-publicized act of adultery as well?


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

sherako said:


> "let he without sin cast the first stone." none of you suckers should be throwing rocks at all. for instance, i know tracy tanked last years season even if he didn't admit to it willingly himself, but i know he put that past him this year, and is playing great ball for the rockets trying to make them a contender. kobe was misguided at a time, but why vilify him for past mistakes, i mean even jordan possibly got his pop killed due to gambling problems. don't hear about that though. but according to some folks logic, people can't change. whatever. maybe i should do like my boy did and pull a copperfield, why hate when you can appreciate my friends. or should i say, my fellow posters.


Did you just try to avoid understanding and rebutting dozens of paragraphs by posting some religious ****? :angel:


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## MiamiWade (Jan 23, 2005)

Max Payne said:


> Quit acting like such a *******. His argument is pretty sound and it's entirely plausible that Kobe would want to divert attention from his situation to somewhere else. What you don't want to understand is that Kobe's the one with the smoking gun when it comes to your "breaking the commandments"...he's a proven adulterer and though we may live in times where scholars will question how much of a prevalence established values have on society, the basic rules of trust and fidelity in marriage and friendship are almost ingrained in our DNA. That automatically makes Kobe the bad guy in everyone's eyes and that's the way it'll be for the rest of his life and rightly so I might add. Sure he's a great player but he's arrogant, has breached the basic rules of society in the worst possible way and so is being looked down upon. Suddenly you expect America to believe an adulterer calling out someone else ? Where in human nature would you find it possible for average Joe to believe Kobe, the adulterer, is also totally trustworthy when it comes to revealing Shaq's apparent misdemeanours with other women ? You're pathetic and so is Kobe if he claims he "never wanted Shaq to be a part of his troubles"...why the heck did he have to come out with crazy allegations then ? Bryant's a first rate idiot who is very talented but is too stupid in that he allows the media to get the best of him and turn him into this circus. I feel sorry for you Kobe fans because he always lets himself down not on the court but with his ridiculous off court shenanigans. Good luck on Thursday because after the Lakers got steam-rolled by the Sixers today, I'd say Kobe and his boys are about to be blasted out of the water by Shaq and Wade. At least KG will never have off-court baggage like Kobe will for the rest of his career and whether you like it or not, KG will always be a better player than Kobe. Believe me when I say that Kobe will never win another ring and forget MVP's. He doesn't deserve championships and I actually wish you fans and Kobe luck even getting near another championship just because that's about as close as you'll get to the gold. Now Kobe can't hide behind his Shaq-won rings anymore and will see what guys like AI, KG and T-Mac have had to have gone through all these years.


Excellent Post.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Max Payne said:


> Quit acting like such a *******. His argument is pretty sound and it's entirely plausible that Kobe would want to divert attention from his situation to somewhere else. What you don't want to understand is that Kobe's the one with the smoking gun when it comes to your "breaking the commandments"...*he's a proven adulterer and though we may live in times where scholars will question how much of a prevalence established values have on society, the basic rules of trust and fidelity in marriage and friendship are almost ingrained in our DNA. That automatically makes Kobe the bad guy in everyone's eyes and that's the way it'll be for the rest of his life and rightly so I might add *. Sure he's a great player but he's arrogant, *has breached the basic rules of society in the worst possible way *and so is being looked down upon. Suddenly you expect America to believe *an adulterer * calling out someone else ? Where in human nature would you find it possible for average Joe to *believe Kobe, the adulterer, is also totally trustworthy when it comes to revealing Shaq's apparent misdemeanours with other women *? You're pathetic and so is Kobe if he claims he "never wanted Shaq to be a part of his troubles"...why the heck did he have to come out with crazy allegations then ? Bryant's a first rate idiot who is very talented but is too stupid in that he allows the media to get the best of him and turn him into this circus. I feel sorry for you Kobe fans because he always lets himself down not on the court but with his ridiculous off court shenanigans. Good luck on Thursday because after the Lakers got steam-rolled by the Sixers today, I'd say Kobe and his boys are about to be blasted out of the water by Shaq and Wade. At least KG will never have off-court baggage like Kobe will for the rest of his career and whether you like it or not, KG will always be a better player than Kobe. Believe me when I say that Kobe will never win another ring and forget MVP's. He doesn't deserve championships and I actually wish you fans and Kobe luck even getting near another championship just because that's about as close as you'll get to the gold. Now Kobe can't hide behind his Shaq-won rings anymore and will see what guys like AI, KG and T-Mac have had to have gone through all these years.


Wow... Just... wow...

"Breached the basic rules of society in the worst possible way"? LMAO. For screwing around? Gess you hate Bill Cinton´s guts too... Or JFK's, for that matter.

Wow.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Wow... Just... wow...
> 
> "Breached the basic rules of society in the worst possible way"? LMAO. For screwing around? Gess you hate Bill Cinton´s guts too... Or JFK's, for that matter.
> 
> Wow.


Don't forget MJ!


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Wow... Just... wow...
> 
> "Breached the basic rules of society in the worst possible way"? LMAO. For screwing around? Gess you hate Bill Cinton´s guts too... Or JFK's, for that matter.
> 
> Wow.


 Haha genius...listen up...

Name me one society in the world where something like adultery is actually condoned....can't find any can you ? There is nothing wrong with screwing around if you're single but NOT AFTER YOU'VE ENTERED INTO MARRIAGE WITH A WOMAN. In any religion, any society that is just a basic doctrine. Also, yes in my book breaking your wife's trust is just about one of the worst social crimes you can commit. 
Now about political figures...Clinton and JFK were great presidents but not everyone agreed with their flings. I'm certainly not one of them even though I would take both of them over Bush any day of the week. Your feeble attempts to make me look like some fundamentalist preacher with a bible in my hand are laughable at best. I've always been liberal in most instances and I think it's perfectly normal to think adultery is a terrible thing. I'm a Democrat. I've met John Kerry in person and have worked on Philadelphia campaigns for the latter half of the past year so there.

You and your buddy madskillz or whatever his name love Kobe so much that you should get married and cheat just to see what happens. Suffice to say it should be comical for anyone seeing you guys being dragged to a divorce lawyer's office.


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

madskillz1_99 said:


> Don't forget MJ!


 Even if he did cheat, which is still a matter of much debate and nowhere near as open as JFK's flings with Monroe, at least MJ was smart enough not to let it get out and was never accused of rape...don't try and bring him down to Bryant's status because you'll get laughed off these boards....
Just to clarify, if MJ actually did cheat on his wife, I think that's terrible but the last person I'll believe saying that is someone who jockrides a proven and admitted adulterer.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Max Payne said:


> Even if he did cheat, which is still a matter of much debate and nowhere near as open as JFK's flings with Monroe, at least MJ was smart enough not to let it get out and was never accused of rape...don't try and bring him down to Bryant's status because you'll get laughed off these boards....
> Just to clarify, if MJ actually did cheat on his wife, I think that's terrible but the last person I'll believe saying that is someone who jockrides a proven and admitted adulterer.


LOL, have you been living under a rock? It is not a theory, the freakin' woman tried to extort him. MJ CHEATED ON HIS WIFE. It's not the end of the world, but he did it. 

And what does being accused of rape have to do with anything?! just b/c Kobe unfortunately cheated with a psycho it is worse than cheating with a mentally stable chick? come on,


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Oh yeah, and Jason Kidd hit his wife, I'd say that's worse than cheating.


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## Tas (Mar 14, 2005)

Does he actually name Penny with his comments? IMO that makes him a bit hypocritical because Penny has nothing to do with Kobe.
I happen to agree with you. Shaq is as much at fault for the Lakers/Kobe problems as Kobe is.




Travis76 said:


> Whats this talk i hear about Kobe being arogant? And Kobe being selfish? Do you see the things Shaq tells reporters. Trust me, im a Heat/Shaq fan, he is one of my favourite players ever. But this is getting so stupid, where he constantly refers to Kobe as his child. And puts him in the same context as penny hardaway. Ya ok maybe penny didnt work out to well, but look at how good Kobe is. Shaq acts like he did everything on his own in L.A. Just like Kobe, Shaqs never won anything on his own, honestly, Shaq is such a moron when he talks about Kobe being his "child". Atleast Kobe gives Shaq credit about his game, Shaq on the other hand, just tries so hard to be funny, to tell you the truth, i dont even find him funny. He is one of those guys you just laugh at there jokes because your scared not too. Shaq needs to shut up and let go off the fact that Kobe and him didnt work out, Kobe was not your child. On the all NBA first team the last 2 years, they were togather side by side. Not on the all Defensive first team thou, Shaq didnt make that :biggrin:


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Max Payne said:


> Haha genius...listen up...
> 
> Name me one society in the world where something like adultery is actually condoned....can't find any can you ? There is nothing wrong with screwing around if you're single but NOT AFTER YOU'VE ENTERED INTO MARRIAGE WITH A WOMAN. In any religion, any society that is just a basic doctrine. Also, yes in my book breaking your wife's trust is just about one of the worst social crimes you can commit.


It is and it isn't. In this country for instance, many men condone adultery, they just front in public about it. Surely you've heard groups of men talk about their girlfriends, this and that. I know of men who throw parties to have women come to the house, hang out, do whatever, and the majority are married. Sure it's frowned upon when it gets exposed, but alot of men do condone and support each other in extramarritial affairs. This does happen.

And silly for any man to think, he can do all sorts of untrustworthy act behind his girlfriends then get married and completely change his ways. Those types of habits don't die easy.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Max Payne said:


> Even if he did cheat, which is still a matter of much debate and nowhere near as open as JFK's flings with Monroe, at least MJ was smart enough not to let it get out and was never accused of rape...don't try and bring him down to Bryant's status because you'll get laughed off these boards....
> Just to clarify, if MJ actually did cheat on his wife, I think that's terrible but the last person I'll believe saying that is someone who jockrides a proven and admitted adulterer.


Michael Jordan cheating on his wife was a public matter. Don't deny it just because it's not Kobe, and then stick your finger in Kobe's face. If it disgust you to hear about someone cheating on his wife, be consistent about it, not selective.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Tas said:


> Does he actually name Penny with his comments? IMO that makes him a bit hypocritical because Penny has nothing to do with Kobe.
> I happen to agree with you. Shaq is as much at fault for the Lakers/Kobe problems as Kobe is.


:yes:


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

I stand corrected. I honestly didn't know much about Jordan's situation and I apologise then for my inaccuracies. I think it's terrible then that Jordan was upto something like that. The only problem is that Jordan is also the icon of the sport and managed his media affairs better than Bryant in that they were never allowed to find out anything about team bust-ups, fights, etc. But once again, I apologise for not having all the facts.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Max Payne said:


> I stand corrected. I honestly didn't know much about Jordan's situation and I apologise then for my inaccuracies. I think it's terrible then that Jordan was upto something like that. The only problem is that Jordan is also the icon of the sport and managed his media affairs better than Bryant in that they were never allowed to find out anything about team bust-ups, fights, etc. But once again, I apologise for not having all the facts.


True, Mike did manage his personal issues outside the media, that's where Kobe's made his mistake. And props for admitting you didn't know. I can respect that, reps points fo sure!


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

Thanks for letting me know the truth man. Always good to have your facts straightened when they're on the crooked side.


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## Tas (Mar 14, 2005)

HEATLUNATIC said:


> He cares about making sure that *EVERYONE* knows that Kobe rode his coattails!!!
> 
> Which is true!!!


Actually that is not true until Shaq wins a title without Kobe.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

Tas said:


> Actually that is not true until Shaq wins a title without Kobe.


You can reverse that to for Kobe.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

tatahbenitez said:


> You can reverse that to for Kobe.


you can do it for Jordan then too


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Did yall see Dwayne Wade riding Shaq's coattails in NY last night. It was just like when Kobe used to ride his tails back in the day. Game winning shot, spectacular play down the stretch, I'm not sure who's the better tail rider.... :whoknows:


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

IV said:


> Did yall see Dwayne Wade riding Shaq's coattails in NY last night. It was just like when Kobe used to ride his tails back in the day. Game winning shot, spectacular play down the stretch, I'm not sure who's the better tail rider.... :whoknows:



I would have to say Kobe b/c he rode Shaq's coattails to 5 All-Defensive teams...


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> you can do it for Jordan then too



Ummmmm....I don't think so.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

33 said:


> I would have to say Kobe b/c he rode Shaq's coattails to 5 All-Defensive teams...


hahahaha, and 3 titles. 

And Mike, Scott, Oneal, & Kobe all get the thumbs down for riding Phil to the title! SISSIES!


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

edit


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

IV said:


> hahahaha, and 3 titles.
> 
> And Mike, Scott, Oneal, & Kobe all get the thumbs down for riding Phil to the title! SISSIES!


\

HAHAHAHA I haven't posted on this board in a while, so you know I had to mess with you. But I do want to add......It could be said that Phil was riding MJ, Scottie, Shaq, and Kobe to his titles. Look, Kobe is his own player, as is Shaq and Wade. Nobody is riding coattails.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

33 said:


> \
> 
> HAHAHAHA I haven't posted on this board in a while, so you know I had to mess with you. But I do want to add......It could be said that Phil was riding MJ, Scottie, Shaq, and Kobe to his titles. Look, Kobe is his own player, as is Shaq and Wade. Nobody is riding coattails.


I agree 100%. No one is riding coattails. Kobe likely would not win title without Shaq. He offered what the team needed to win, but that wouldn't be enough if he was alone. Same with Shaq, Jordan, Pip, Phil etc. Or I guess to an extent, they are all riding each others coattails.... Regardless, they're all champions, all winner and it's all because of each other.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

IV said:


> I agree 100%. No one is riding coattails. Kobe likely would not win title without Shaq. He offered what the team needed to win, but that wouldn't be enough if he was alone. Same with Shaq, Jordan, Pip, Phil etc. Or I guess to an extent, they are all riding each others coattails.... Regardless, they're all champions, all winner and it's all because of each other.


Sometimes I think people just need things to talk about so they make up an argument to help the day go by faster. A real topic would be: "Who was more dominate, Wilt or Jordan?"


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

IV said:


> Did yall see Dwayne Wade riding Shaq's coattails in NY last night. It was just like when Kobe used to ride his tails back in the day. Game winning shot, spectacular play down the stretch, I'm not sure who's the better tail rider.... :whoknows:


Wrong. Wade was actually a great player last year in his rookie year without Shaq. 

Shaq made Kobe, Shaq didnt make Wade


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Max Payne said:


> Haha genius...listen up...
> 
> Name me one society in the world where something like adultery is actually condoned....can't find any can you ? There is nothing wrong with screwing around if you're single but NOT AFTER YOU'VE ENTERED INTO MARRIAGE WITH A WOMAN. In any religion, any society that is just a basic doctrine.


When i said "screwing around" i obviously meant cheating on one's wife. Sorry for not making myself clearer.



> Also, yes in my book breaking your wife's trust is just about one of the worst social crimes you can commit.


Sorry, but i don´t agree. Adultery is on the bottom of the ladder if i think of murder, rape, robbing ,assault, etc., etc., etc.



> Now about political figures...Clinton and JFK were great presidents but not everyone agreed with their flings. I'm certainly not one of them even though I would take both of them over Bush any day of the week. Your feeble attempts to make me look like some fundamentalist preacher with a bible in my hand are laughable at best. I've always been liberal in most instances and I think it's perfectly normal to think adultery is a terrible thing.


So, you prefer guys that commited the heinous "crime" of adultery, one of the worst actions ever, over Bush? Hmmm...



> I'm a Democrat.


Nothing to brag about. :wink: 



> I've met John Kerry in person and have worked on Philadelphia campaigns for the latter half of the past year so there.


Ugh! Sorry about that. :wink: 



> You and your buddy madskillz or whatever his name love Kobe so much that you should get married and cheat just to see what happens. Suffice to say it should be comical for anyone seeing you guys being dragged to a divorce lawyer's office.


It´s not about "loving" Kobe. It´s about not considering the fundamentals of your desdain for the guy minimally logic...


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

I agree with you Paul, about murder and rape being the worst crimes but I've always felt that adultery is pretty serious as well, if not nearly in the same league as those two, so I should have made myself clearer. About JFK and Clinton, like I said I overstated adultery and almost equated it with other horrible crimes but Bush is someone I hold in contempt. He got into Yale and Harvard because of his family and did pretty terribly while he was there, whereas Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar. I don't want to get too deep into politics but Clinton and JFK were much more adept at leading America than any Bush ever will be ( messed up gene pools do that to you).


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Nique21 said:


> Wrong. Wade was actually a great player last year in his rookie year without Shaq.
> 
> Shaq made Kobe, Shaq didnt make Wade


The year before Kobe played with Shaq he was the national high school player of the year, does that count for anything? 

Furthermore, this means that Kobe is the better tail rider than because he wasn't made before Shaq, he was made after. I guess he should have contacted MTV in 95 instead of 96. Freaking semantics!

Also, does this mean that Shaq is riding Wade's coattails? We have to find a definitive way of accurately placing coattail riders.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Nique21 said:


> Wrong. Wade was actually a great player last year in his rookie year without Shaq.
> 
> Shaq made Kobe, Shaq didnt make Wade


Soooo... Kobe is so good this year because Shaq made him?!


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

It's so ridiculous isn't it. What's especially funny is most people who say that, actually believe it. They're not kidding.... :laugh:


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

Nique21 said:


> Wrong. Wade was actually a great player last year in his rookie year without Shaq.
> 
> Shaq made Kobe, Shaq didnt make Wade


Horrible Horrible argument, if you seriously believe that, then you really don't watch basketball. *I dont think Shaq made either player*, they are both great talents on their own. But looking at these statistics:

Wade 
03-04 - 16.2 PPG, 4.5 APG, 4.0 RPG
04-05 - 23.8 PPG, 7.0 APG, 5.2 RPG

Kobe
03-04 - 24.0 PPG, 5,1 APG, 5.5 RPG
04-05 - 28.2 PPG, 6.3 APG, 6.1 RPG

I dont see how you can argue for Wade, when the numbers clearly favor Kobe. Sure, Wade has had huge games when Shaq was injured, but so has Kobe in previous years when Shaq was injured, and its also too small of a sample size to make any real valid statements.

I just dont see how you can tell me Shaq has made Kobe, but he hasn't made Wade. I dont even think any rational Heat fan can argue this, Im sure almost 90% of this board think that Wade and Kobe have developed their own talents, they are just benefitting greatly from playing with Shaq.

Shaq did not make either player!


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

you fool! everyone knows wade is having a better season than kobe. you kobe fans make me sick how u try to make everything kobe does look like gold. and like i said before shaq put kobe in the position to be a great player, hit those game winning shots. when shaq wasnt playing fot the lakers when he was injured, they were a whole different team. so dont gimme that crap. and EHL quit making stuff up so kobe doesnt look bad. WE ALL KNOW phil left because of kobe, and shaq left because phil left and he knew it was because of kobe. so dont bring that contract shyt into it because that contract was in discussion for more than last season. go make up stories somewhere else.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> you fool! everyone knows wade is having a better season than kobe. you kobe fans make me sick how u try to make everything kobe does look like gold. and like i said before shaq put kobe in the position to be a great player, hit those game winning shots. when shaq wasnt playing fot the lakers when he was injured, they were a whole different team. so dont gimme that crap. and EHL quit making stuff up so kobe doesnt look bad. WE ALL KNOW phil left because of kobe, and shaq left because phil left and he knew it was because of kobe. so dont bring that contract shyt into it because that contract was in discussion for more than last season. go make up stories somewhere else.


I know the truth is hard to believe when you've already made up your mind to blame a particular person, but Phil's contract was a major reason why he didn't come back to LA. He said so in his book, so EHL is not making that up. That's straight from Phil's mouth.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

duncan2k5 said:


> you fool! everyone knows wade is having a better season than kobe.


Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.......

Wade: 23.8ppg, 5.2rpg, 7.0apg, .485FG%, .768FT%, .304% on 3's, 1.55spg, 1.2bpg, 4.2TO
Bryant: 28.2ppg, 6.0rpg, 6.3apg, .424FG%, .823FT%, .322% on 3's, 1.27spg, 0.9bpg, 4.2TO


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

IV said:


> I know the truth is hard to believe when you've already made up your mind to blame a particular person, but Phil's contract was a major reason why he didn't come back to LA. He said so in his book, so EHL is not making that up. That's straight from Phil's mouth.


If The Lakers are seriously thinking about bringing Phil back, then Phil's asking price of 10 million, at the end of last season, will seem like a bargain. And if Buss offers anything under $10 million to Phil is probably going to be an insult to him. If the Lakers knew this was going to happen, I think, they would have kept Phil.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

madskillz dont be foolish. do you actually believe kobe is having a beter season than wade? you are really blind. is kobe paying you for this? anybody, scrub to an nba analysist would tell you wade has had a better season. wade has more highlights, clutch shots, big plays, and leadership than kobe. stats aint everything. t mac had better stats than kobe when he was in orlando and was the scoring champ. i think kobe only had fg% and steals higher than him, but kobe had the better season. so dont come with your blind crap about kobe having a better year. if u think so u obviously know NOTHING about basketball


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> If The Lakers are seriously thinking about bringing Phil back, then Phil's asking price of 10 million, at the end of last season, will seem like a bargain. And if Buss offers anything under $10 million to Phil is probably going to be an insult to him. If the Lakers knew this was going to happen, I think, they would have kept Phil.


Are you disputing the fact that contract negotiations went sour, and that was a major part of why Phil left LA?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> madskillz dont be foolish. do you actually believe kobe is having a beter season than wade? you are really blind. is kobe paying you for this? anybody, scrub to an nba analysist would tell you wade has had a better season. wade has more highlights, clutch shots, big plays, and leadership than kobe. stats aint everything. t mac had better stats than kobe when he was in orlando and was the scoring champ. i think kobe only had fg% and steals higher than him, but kobe had the better season. so dont come with your blind crap about kobe having a better year. if u think so u obviously know NOTHING about basketball


So wade has had a better season than kobe because he's had more highlights, clutch shots, big plays, and leadership? 

You know you actin a fool right? :clown:


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

and to the other guy, phil was fired. he didnt leave because of his contract. remember when he said its either him or kobe? management knew kobe didnt like him much then, they also knew they were gonna keep kobe, so they let go everyone that would kill; the chances of kobe signing back with them. common sense. thats all it takes to understand. read between the lines. stop jocking.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> and to the other guy, phil was fired. he didnt leave because of his contract. remember when he said its either him or kobe? management knew kobe didnt like him much then, they also knew they were gonna keep kobe, so they let go everyone that would kill; the chances of kobe signing back with them. common sense. thats all it takes to understand. read between the lines. stop jocking.


You're off da hook meein. The only reason you think Phil was fired is because Shaq said it. Phil was never fired.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

IV said:


> So wade has had a better season than kobe because he's had more highlights, clutch shots, big plays, and leadership?
> 
> You know you actin a fool right? :clown:


so why does kobe have a better season than wade? because he scored more points? grow up kid. like i said t mac had better numbers previous year. that dont mean he is having a better season. look at duncan and kg. who has better numbers? who is having a better season? two different answers right? i thought to. get with the program buddy. kobe is better than wade in i think 2 major statistical areas. thats it. wade is having a better season than kobe and only a fool would think otherwise buddy


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

IV said:


> Are you disputing the fact that contract negotiations went sour, and that was a major part of why Phil left LA?



I'm saying that Phil asked for 10 million a year, after his contract expired, and Buss declined. But now, The Lakers are rethinking of hiring Phil and if Buss offers less than 10 million a year, then I believe Phil would definetly say NO! It would be like an insult to Phil. Am I disputing anything?


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

oh now u say he wasnt fired? i bet u believe in faries too! dont worry, the Easter Bunny wont bite


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> and to the other guy, phil was fired. he didnt leave because of his contract. remember when he said its either him or kobe? management knew kobe didnt like him much then, they also knew they were gonna keep kobe, so they let go everyone that would kill; the chances of kobe signing back with them. common sense. thats all it takes to understand. read between the lines. stop jocking.



first Wade better than Kobe??? i really hope your kidding... there isnt an argument here... Tmac is a good argument... Lebron is a good agument... but, Dwayne Wade? NEXT

second, Phil has been close to stepping away for years... all the way back to the mid 90s wit theBulls, he has kids and health problems...

Phil has said that it wasnt Kobe that forced him out... Phil said that himself

and my favorite a lil quote from Shaq on his future as Laker (15 min after Game 5 of the finals... *"This is a business and Ima make a business decision on what's best for me and my family."* 

What would people be saying if Kobe said that?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> so why does kobe have a better season than wade? because he scored more points? grow up kid. like i said t mac had better numbers previous year. that dont mean he is having a better season. look at duncan and kg. who has better numbers? who is having a better season? two different answers right? i thought to. get with the program buddy. kobe is better than wade in i think 2 major statistical areas. thats it. wade is having a better season than kobe and only a fool would think otherwise buddy


You still haven't address my question. I did not say Kobe is having a better season than Wade. I'm asking you why you say Wade is having a better season. If it because he's had more highlights, clutch shots, big plays, and leadership I don't agree with that for a number of reason. Again, I'm not questioning what you're saying, I'm questions your reasoning.


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> you fool! everyone knows wade is having a better season than kobe. you kobe fans make me sick how u try to make everything kobe does look like gold. and like i said before shaq put kobe in the position to be a great player, hit those game winning shots.


Was I arguing who was having a better season? No, I wasnt. We could go into that but that would be another thread. I was just simply responding to when Nique said that Shaq made Kobe, but he didn't make Wade.




duncan2k5 said:


> when shaq wasnt playing fot the lakers when he was injured, they were a whole different team..


Well of course, you take off the most dominating guy in the league and they'll be a different team. Don't you think the Heat are different when Shaq isn't playing, of course they are.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> oh now u say he wasnt fired? i bet u believe in faries too! dont worry, the Easter Bunny wont bite


Why do you believe Phil Jackson was fired by LA?


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> oh now u say he wasnt fired? i bet u believe in faries too! dont worry, the Easter Bunny wont bite



first Wade better than Kobe??? i really hope your kidding... there isnt an argument here... Tmac is a good argument... Lebron is a good agument... but, Dwayne Wade? NEXT

second, Phil has been close to stepping away for years... all the way back to the mid 90s wit theBulls, he has kids and health problems...

Phil has said that it wasnt Kobe that forced him out... Phil said that himself

and my favorite a lil quote from Shaq on his future as Laker (15 min after Game 5 of the finals... "This is a business and Ima make a business decision on what's best for me and my family."

What would people be saying if Kobe said that?


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

duncan2k5 said:


> and to the other guy, phil was fired. he didnt leave because of his contract. remember when he said its either him or kobe? management knew kobe didnt like him much then, they also knew they were gonna keep kobe, so they let go everyone that would kill; the chances of kobe signing back with them. common sense. thats all it takes to understand. read between the lines. stop jocking.


I don't think Phil was fired, he was let go by Buss after Phil asked for 10 million a year. But Phil knew he wasn't coming back. The Lakers were going in a different direction and he asked for a high price knowing Buss would say no to any kind of raise. But now, I think, that 10 million is a bargain for The Lakers. Phil is in the drivers seat now and can ask, and probably will ask, for a "huge raise". And if Buss thought Shaqs asking price was high, wait till Phil begins negociations.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> I'm saying that Phil asked for 10 million a year, after his contract expired, and Buss declined. But now, The Lakers are rethinking of hiring Phil and if Buss offers less than 10 million a year, then I believe Phil would definetly say NO! It would be like an insult to Phil. Am I disputing anything?


I was just asking....

It makes sense, I wouldn't imagine Buss would offer Phil less than a fair deal. Consider what Buss wanted to give him was not enough and what Phil wanted was too much, so find a median.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> I don't think Phil was fired, he was let go by Buss after Phil asked for 10 million a year.


He wasn't fired, and he was not let go. Phil resigned.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

IV said:


> I was just asking....
> 
> It makes sense, I wouldn't imagine Buss would offer Phil less than a fair deal. Consider what Buss wanted to give him was not enough and what Phil wanted was too much, so find a median.



But that was last year, when Phil knew the Lakers were going in a different direction. Now, The Lakers are backtracking, knowing that Phil was a huge part of The Lakers success. Phil isn't stupid and knows he is holding the chips now. 10 million a year will be the starting price.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

IV said:


> Why do you believe Phil Jackson was fired by LA?



duncan2k5: Because Kobe wants to be the only star in Tinsel Town. He wanted him out along with Shaq, Karl Malone, Jack Nicholas, and maybe Halle Berry if she keeps showing up to games... his next plan is to relocate Hollywood to Dallas for Shawn Bradley and Pavel Podkolzin...


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

IV said:


> He wasn't fired, and he was not let go. Phil resigned.


If your contract is expired and not renewed, then you are let go by that company. You do not retire.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> But that was last year, when Phil knew the Lakers were going in a different direction. Now, The Lakers are backtracking, knowing that Phil was a huge part of The Lakers success. Phil isn't stupid and knows he is holding the chips now. 10 million a year will be the starting price.


Maybe, but there are pros that weren't there before as well. Shaq not being there is a major one, because that was the bulk of Kobe's frustration. Also, Kobe knows what it's like not having Phil around. He'd be happy to have him back, so they should get long alot better. Keep in mind, Phil said just a month ago that when he left LA, him and Kobe patched things up and he left on good term with him.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

shobe42 said:


> duncan2k5: Because Kobe wants to be the only star in Tinsel Town. He wanted him out along with Shaq, Karl Malone, Jack Nicholas, and maybe Halle Berry if she keeps showing up to games... his next plan is to relocate Hollywood to Dallas for Shawn Bradley and Pavel Podkolzin...


It's just as much fun pretending to be him because we all know exactly what type of nonesense he'd say. :laugh:


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

IV said:


> It's just as much fun pretending to be him because we all know exactly what type of nonesense he'd say. :laugh:



i considered just posting a picture of ****...


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> If your contract is expired and not renewed, then you are let go by that company. You do not retire.


I'm not sure if his contract did in fact expired_(I thought he just wanted to renegotiate, could be wrong)_, but that contract was able to be renewed and he chose not to except the offer, so he resigned.
It's not like LA did want him back, they wanted him back, they just couldn't afford his demands.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

shobe42 said:


> i considered just posting a picture of ****...


hahahaha, that would have worked! :laugh:


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

shobe42 said:


> first Wade better than Kobe??? i really hope your kidding... there isnt an argument here... Tmac is a good argument... Lebron is a good agument... but, Dwayne Wade? NEXT
> 
> second, Phil has been close to stepping away for years... all the way back to the mid 90s wit theBulls, he has kids and health problems...
> 
> ...


all it takes is a little bit of literacy. i said wade is having a better season, not that he is better (though i rather have wade as a teammate).

and shaq saying that is the same thing as kobe saying that he is gonna test free agency. so u have no point. and if it wasnt for kobe phil would still be coaching. phil said he didnt "think" kobe forced him out. but i dont believe him for one. and u have no point bringing that up because if he said kobe forced him out you would thrash him and make escuses and say he lied. so once again you have no point. even a kid can put 2 and 2 together. Kobe had friction with shaq and phil. he was a free agent and management wanted to choose the younger, more promising person, so they got rid of phil to entice kobe to stay. then shaq was disgruntled that kobe gave detroit the championship and now kobe was the reason that phil left. so he demanded a trade. the lakers knowing that if they kept shaq kobe might have left traded him. kobe was behind all this. no need to deny it.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

duncan2k5 said:


> then shaq was disgruntled that kobe gave detroit the championship .


Really...? 

If it wasn't for Kobe that series would have been a sweep, Shaq couldn't do anything against the Pistons frontline, for god's sake Elden Campbell was outhustling Shaq, and outrebounding him.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> all it takes is a little bit of literacy. i said wade is having a better season, not that he is better (though i rather have wade as a teammate).
> 
> and shaq saying that is the same thing as kobe saying that he is gonna test free agency. so u have no point. and if it wasnt for kobe phil would still be coaching. phil said he didnt "think" kobe forced him out. but i dont believe him for one. and u have no point bringing that up because if he said kobe forced him out you would thrash him and make escuses and say he lied. so once again you have no point. even a kid can put 2 and 2 together. Kobe had friction with shaq and phil. he was a free agent and management wanted to choose the younger, more promising person, so they got rid of phil to entice kobe to stay. then shaq was disgruntled that kobe gave detroit the championship and now kobe was the reason that phil left. so he demanded a trade. the lakers knowing that if they kept shaq kobe might have left traded him. kobe was behind all this. no need to deny it.


Step away from the crackpipe! :naughty: 

Your subjective opinion is entertaining, but it's not convincing anyone other than yourself.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> all it takes is a little bit of literacy. i said wade is having a better season, not that he is better (though i rather have wade as a teammate).


i appologize i read that wrong... and as for my opinoin.... nope ur still nuts



> and shaq saying that is the same thing as kobe saying that he is
> gonna test free agency. so u have no point.


I have an excellent point... Kobe is selfish... Shaq is selfish... they broke apart together... any unbiased person could figure that out



> phil said he didnt "think" kobe forced him out. but i dont believe him for one. and u have no point bringing that up because if he said kobe forced him out you would thrash him and make escuses and say he lied. so once again you have no point.


wrong... thats one of my main points along with that shaq hates kobe just as much or more than kobe hates shaq for not JUST blaming Kobe

if Phil said yea Kobe made me leave I would be much more skeptical of Kobe...

I grew up in Chicago watching the Bulls... i read all his books but the last one cuz its too much drama for a team i loved... I am a Phil fan first... Kobe second

but the opposite is probly true... Phil says he doesnt think Kobe forced him out and u simply disregard it... if Phil said yea kobe kicked my *** out *would u disregard that??* 



> he was a free agent and management wanted to choose the younger, more promising person, so they got rid of phil to entice kobe to stay. then shaq was disgruntled that kobe gave detroit the championship and now kobe was the reason that phil left. so he demanded a trade. the lakers knowing that if they kept shaq kobe might have left traded him. kobe was behind all this. no need to deny it.


SO WAT DO WE HAVE HERE...
1. management chose Kobe
2. Phil says Kobe didnt force him out
3. A disgruntled Shaq demands a trade *b/c management wants Kobe*

when i add this up wat do i see... Management chose the young gun and Shaq got mad that he didnt win the fued...

Shaq and Kobe both wanted to stay... both wanted the other gone... management chose Kobe... 

*and you completely blame Kobe...*

im goin wit hater. lets brand the letter on him...


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

duncan2k5 said:


> all it takes is a little bit of literacy. i said wade is having a better season, not that he is better (though i rather have wade as a teammate).
> 
> and shaq saying that is the same thing as kobe saying that he is gonna test free agency. so u have no point. and if it wasnt for kobe phil would still be coaching. phil said he didnt "think" kobe forced him out. but i dont believe him for one. and u have no point bringing that up because if he said kobe forced him out you would thrash him and make escuses and say he lied. so once again you have no point. even a kid can put 2 and 2 together. Kobe had friction with shaq and phil. he was a free agent and management wanted to choose the younger, more promising person, so they got rid of phil to entice kobe to stay. then shaq was disgruntled that kobe gave detroit the championship and now kobe was the reason that phil left. so he demanded a trade. the lakers knowing that if they kept shaq kobe might have left traded him. kobe was behind all this. no need to deny it.


Good post.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

thug_immortal8 said:


> Really...?
> 
> If it wasn't for Kobe that series would have been a sweep, Shaq couldn't do anything against the Pistons frontline, for god's sake Elden Campbell was outhustling Shaq, and outrebounding him.


you sound like a complete ***. shaq was shooting 63% and grabbing double digit boards. kobe is the one who couldnt handle Prince. forcing stopid shots and committing turnovers like nobody's business. you laker fans try to make everything kobe does to be great...even shooting 38% and throwing the series away. show some damn humility and give shaq the ball. and it was luke waltin and shaq qho won that second game you dummy. remember what happened before kobe took that shot? i bet you didnt. shaq brought them back into the game. and luke walton fed shaq the ball like nobody's business. kobe was in the league for years and was frustrated by the defence. shaq was scoring at will. i remember being mad when shaq would score easily on the single coverage detroit was putting on him. i was like "if they give him the ball all the time they would kill detroit" and i didnt want that because i didnt want lakers to win. but kobe saved the day! shooting all those bricks. could have built a new staples


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Good post.



i agree...

it alters facts

injects opinoin as fact

and disregards the quote of a well respected, all time great Coach b/c it hurts his argument

GOOD POST INDEED :clap:


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> you sound like a complete ***. shaq was shooting 63% and grabbing double digit boards. kobe is the one who couldnt handle Prince. forcing stopid shots and committing turnovers like nobody's business. you laker fans try to make everything kobe does to be great...even shooting 38% and throwing the series away. show some damn humility and give shaq the ball. and it was luke waltin and shaq qho won that second game you dummy. remember what happened before kobe took that shot? i bet you didnt. shaq brought them back into the game. and luke walton fed shaq the ball like nobody's business. kobe was in the league for years and was frustrated by the defence. shaq was scoring at will. i remember being mad when shaq would score easily on the single coverage detroit was putting on him. i was like "if they give him the ball all the time they would kill detroit" and i didnt want that because i didnt want lakers to win. but kobe saved the day! shooting all those bricks. could have built a new staples



I AGREE... KOBE PLAYED AWFUL... IT HAPPENS TO THE BEST OF US

but mr spurs fan u should know so well... that the fabolous play and heroics of Kobe against the Spurs is the only reason the Lakers moved on... don't you remember the spurs were up 2-0... Shaq had a 4 pt game... and then Kobe came and well you guys didnt get anutha win till this season...

how quickly we forget

the point is Shaq has played bad... Kobe has played bad... Shaq has saved the Lakers... Kobe has saved the lakers... Kobe didnt ruin the season for anyone


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

Bill Walton said it best at the X-Mas game...

"Shaq needs o remember that if he had played this well last year he'd still be a Laker."

Shaq is a great, dominant player... at his best no one in the L can touch him...

if Shaq would have continued to work hard ater the 1st title...if he hadn't put off his surgery 4 months... if he hadn't gained massive amounts of weight... while Kobe went to work day and night on his own and with team... shaq would be a Laker...

Kobe would have dealt with the 2nd hand position or left... *but remember Kobe played second fiddle for a long time and would always lay back... something Shaq never did (even when he was playing bad)*


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

thank you seanet. at least someone is backing me up. ppl on here seem to be afraid of these laker fans.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

what are u talkin about? does work hard. you cant be great without trying. this theory about shaq being lazy is overrated. and bill walton is my boy but if kobe would pass the ball the lakers would still be the lakers


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> what are u talkin about? does work hard. you cant be great without trying. this theory about shaq being lazy is overrated. and bill walton is my boy but if kobe would pass the ball the lakers would still be the lakers


He averages more assist per game than just about any shooting guard in the league and he doenst pass enough?


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

duncan2k5 said:


> you sound like a complete ***. shaq was shooting 63% and grabbing double digit boards. kobe is the one who couldnt handle Prince. forcing stopid shots and committing turnovers like nobody's business. you laker fans try to make everything kobe does to be great...even shooting 38% and throwing the series away. show some damn humility and give shaq the ball. and it was luke waltin and shaq qho won that second game you dummy. remember what happened before kobe took that shot? i bet you didnt. shaq brought them back into the game. and luke walton fed shaq the ball like nobody's business. kobe was in the league for years and was frustrated by the defence. shaq was scoring at will. i remember being mad when shaq would score easily on the single coverage detroit was putting on him. i was like "if they give him the ball all the time they would kill detroit" and i didnt want that because i didnt want lakers to win. but kobe saved the day! shooting all those bricks. could have built a new staples


 This is from Nba.com:

*Kobe Bryant figured out the defense of the Detroit Pistons, just in time to save the Los Angeles Lakers' season. *

Bryant buried a tying 3-pointer with 2.1 seconds left in regulation, *then took complete control of overtime* as the Lakers scrambled for an emotional 99-91 victory over the Pistons that evened the NBA Finals at one game each. 

Again showing his outstanding clutch tendencies,* Bryant scored 14 of his 33 points in the fourth quarter and overtime as he pulled the Lakers from the brink of facing an obstacle no team had ever overcome.* 

Los Angeles was seconds from dropping the first two games at home, and no team ever has won the title after doing that. 

With time running out on Los Angeles, Bryant took a dribble step backward and let fly a 3-pointer over Richard Hamilton that splashed through, tying the game at 89-89 and sending the STAPLES Center into pandemonium. 

"I felt like Richard was pretty close," Bryant said. "I felt like he was playing good defense. I felt like he was pressuring me. He knew I wanted to go for the three and stayed up close to me." 

*"We always believe that Kobe can make miracle shots, even when things are not going well for him," Lakers coach Phil Jackson said. *

*In overtime, Bryant blew past the deflated Pistons, feeding Shaquille O'Neal for a dunk, making a tough drive and tossing in a running banker. *O'Neal's dunk off a lob from unlikely hero Luke Walton sealed it at 99-91 with 1:22 to go.

With O'Neal on the bench with foul trouble, Detroit went inside. Rasheed Wallace triggered the offense from the low post, setting up a jumper by Billups, a layup by Hamilton and a reverse dunk by Ben Wallace for an 81-77 lead with 3:07 left. 

*O'Neal returned but could not keep Ben Wallace off the boards. He had a pair of follow shots around a jumper and two free throws by Hamilton, pushing the lead to 89-83 with 47 seconds to go.*


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

Shaq procrastonated his surgery 4 months and the Lakers started 11-19... we can all say how it proves how important Shaq is, but the fact is his laziness put them in that situation... and he let his team down 

*" I got hurt on company time so I'm going to get healed on Company time"* or something like that

Phil asked Shaq to take a break after 2000 title and come back Sep. 1st to get in shape... Shaq showed up on October 1st 40 lbs overweight...

*Now its your turn to change the facts and try to twist them to make Kobe look bad*


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

The reason the Lakers stopped feeding the ball to Shaq was because he went to the bench. 

I know that Shaq and Luke played great but Kobe was the reason the Lakers won that game, and you can't argue with taht.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

thug_immortal8 said:


> This is from Nba.com:
> 
> *Kobe Bryant figured out the defense of the Detroit Pistons, just in time to save the Los Angeles Lakers' season. *
> 
> ...



Kobe wrote the article...

next please... you Kobe fans are ridiculous


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

thug_immortal8 said:


> The reason the Lakers stopped feeding the ball to Shaq was because he went to the bench.
> 
> I know that Shaq and Luke played great but Kobe was the reason the Lakers won that game, and you can't argue with taht.


not just that... but the problem the Lakers faced was interior D and they got killed on pick and rolls

*the Lakers always got killed by quick guards on pick and rolls and the #1 reason was Shaqs blatant laziness to guard them... that was the Lakers #1 true achilles heal...

and there is no denying Shaqs fault in that*


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

for the first person, im not talkin about this season. im talkin about the finals. he saw his shot wasnt falling and shaq was killing. pass him the ball. and to the second guy, my point was that if u remember shaq led a comeback with a three point play and s couple otehr things that set up kobe for the shot. if it wasnt for shaq that shot would have been non existent. and kobe didnt figure out the defence, or he would not have shot 38%. wuit trying to make him look good in that series. he was terrible no matter how u spin it. stop trying to make it look like he was doing everything. do u remember the "story of my life" interview when the reporter told shaq "there was a moment in the game when you were unstoppable, why didnt they keep feeding u the ball?" post that. that was real. not that crap about kobe figuring out the defense


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

thats a lie thug immortal. shaq was in the game. he was the one scoring before kobe hit the shot. he and luke hyped the crowd up with their play and it was punctuated with a three point play. and it wasnt shaq's defense as much as kobe's offence that was killing the lakers. plz stop trying to make kobe look good here. its not working. kobe sucked and shaq was dominant. period


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

duncan2k5 said:


> thank you seanet. at least someone is backing me up. ppl on here seem to be afraid of these laker fans.


I'm also on your side, no one is afraid of the Laker fans, it's just that this board is notorious for Banning anyone who continues to argue with Laker fans, so that's why I sometimes back off after making my point, but it's going to change now

It seems as if everytime a Laker fan argues with a Non-Laker fan, it's usually the Non-Laker fan who gets punished by the mods. Maybe the mods are the ones who are afraid of Laker fans :banana:


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> thats a lie thug immortal. shaq was in the game. he was the one scoring before kobe hit the shot. he and luke hyped the crowd up with their play and it was punctuated with a three point play. and it wasnt shaq's defense as much as kobe's offence that was killing the lakers. plz stop trying to make kobe look good here. its not working. kobe sucked and shaq was dominant. period


read the article... ben wallace slipped pat shaq for 2 putbacks when he came back in


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

Nique21 said:


> I'm also on your side, no one is afraid of the Laker fans, it's just that this board is notorious for Banning anyone who continues to argue with Laker fans, so that's why I sometimes back off after making my point, but it's going to change now
> 
> It seems as if everytime a Laker fan argues with a Non-Laker fan, it's usually the Non-Laker fan who gets punished by the mods. Maybe the mods are the ones who are afraid of Laker fans :banana:



really?? whos been banned??


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

shobe42 said:


> really?? whos been banned??


Alot of people. Check it yourself


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

Nique21 said:


> Alot of people. Check it yourself


a lot of people have been banned for going against laker fans... id like to see this... where do i go to check?

the only banned members i ever knew were "KC/Chops" for i thought excessive battle rapping wit his cousin or something...

and Grizzo... who was a deranged Kobe fan actually...


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

thats my boy nique. thats how it is. there is some partiality when it comes to laker fans. they are so ignorant that no one wants to argue with them for long periods of time. and if you do, ppl go against you for fear of some laker retaliation


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

*As the facts come out the competition runs...*


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> thats my boy nique. thats how it is. there is some partiality when it comes to laker fans. they are so ignorant that no one wants to argue with them for long periods of time. and if you do, ppl go against you for fear of some laker retaliation


you tell me who's partial....

there is a complcated battle of egos amongst players of uppermanagement of the Laker organization... nobody in the situation blames Kobe except for Shaq who got burned out of the whole thing...

1. you, who i assume is not a kobe fan, blame Kobe for the whole thing

2. I for one am clearly a kobe fan, but still admit that both parties were idiots and caused a seperation due to their own egos... i do side wit kobe b/c i think he brings more to our teams future (like management did)

*but who is partial here... please tell me*


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

what facts? you all just try ot spin everything so kobe looks good. you dont read between the lines. like when i told somebody that kobe wasnt clutch this year ( way before the bobcat shot) they tried to prove me wrong by bringing up false ways kobe was clutch this season. you all cant admit something bad about kobe.


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

duncan2k5 said:


> what facts? you all just try ot spin everything so kobe looks good. you dont read between the lines. like when i told somebody that kobe wasnt clutch this year ( way before the bobcat shot) they tried to prove me wrong by bringing up false ways kobe was clutch this season. you all cant admit something bad about kobe.


You're right. Every single Laker fan that posts on this board will never admit anything bad about Kobe. He hasnt been Clutch this year at all, and he hasnt been nearly as clutch as he was when he was with Shaq. But Laker fans don't wanna hear it, they try to spin it around and turn it into a positive for Kobe

I bet they all think that Kobe actually never cheated on his wife and Kobe was probably just badgered into saying it, lol


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Didn't you guys know? Shaq begged to stay, he was willing to take a pay cut, but Kobe was a meanie and said that he had to leave. Same deal with PJ. Kobe forced those guys out, it's not like Shaq was demanding a $876,000,000 contract, it was all Kobe's fault! :angel:


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

shobe42 said:


> I for one am clearly a kobe fan, but still admit that both parties were idiots and caused a seperation due to their own egos...


i guess ur right...


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Nique21 said:


> You're right. Every single Laker fan that posts on this board will never admit anything bad about Kobe. He hasnt been Clutch this year at all, and he hasnt been nearly as clutch as he was when he was with Shaq. But Laker fans don't wanna hear it, they try to spin it around and turn it into a positive for Kobe
> 
> I bet they all think that Kobe actually never cheated on his wife and Kobe was probably just badgered into saying it, lol


I'll say bad about Kobe when he deserves it, like how he was awful (by his standards) the last two games. 

And of course I don't "condone" his cheating, but what do I care!? he's not my husband, and it's a reality of NBA life.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

Nique21 said:


> You're right. *Every single Laker fan that posts on this board* will never admit anything bad about Kobe. He hasnt been Clutch this year at all, and he hasnt been nearly as clutch as he was when he was with Shaq. But Laker fans don't wanna hear it, they try to spin it around and turn it into a positive for Kobe
> 
> I bet they all think that Kobe actually never cheated on his wife and Kobe was probably just badgered into saying it, lol


let's hear it for outrageous generalizations... :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

madskillz1_99 said:


> I'll say bad about Kobe when he deserves it, like how he was awful (by his standards) the last two games.
> 
> And of course I don't "condone" his cheating, but what do I care!? he's not my husband, and it's a reality of NBA life.


Yeah, I mean your "Bow down to Kobe the Bad A$$" Thread just had me roffling for hours

:biggrin:


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

shobe42 said:


> let's hear it for outrageous generalizations... :clap: :clap: :clap:


Oh c'mon, you know it's true

Time to fess up :clown:


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Nique21 said:


> Yeah, I mean your "Bow down to Kobe the Bad A$$" Thread just had me roffling for hours
> 
> :biggrin:


Yeah, that makes a LOT of sense, and it certainly proves that all Laker fans will never criticize Kobe.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

Nique21 said:


> Oh c'mon, you know it's true
> 
> Time to fess up :clown:


have u read any of my posts... i have consitently blamed Kobe aswell as Shaq for the Lakers break up... while most haters blame only Kobe and make Shaq to be the poor good guy kicked out of town by evil Kobe

so again tell me who is partiall


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

shobe42 said:


> you tell me who's partial....
> 
> there is a complcated battle of egos amongst players of uppermanagement of the Laker organization... nobody in the situation blames Kobe except for Shaq who got burned out of the whole thing...
> 
> ...


be smart. no one in management would blame kobe. HE'S THEIR FRANCHISE FOOL!!!!!!!!! Phil i assume is trying not to stir up things more than he already did, especially knowing that he might sign back with them. common sense. why would he talk bad about kobe when he came out with the book, but after knowing that he might sign back with them claim that they smoothed things over? not coincidence my lacking friend. oh no its not.


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

madskillz1_99 said:


> Yeah, that makes a LOT of sense, and it certainly proves that all Laker fans will never criticize Kobe.


Once again a Laker fan who takes everything so seriously and can never loosen up

roffles = a case of "Rolling on the floor laughing"

and actually my point is that Kobe fans will go to any heights to try and prove that Kobe is the greatest player walking the earth. You guys need to worry more about your team than just your player, because right now the Lakers are struggling


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

deleted


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

duncan2k5 said:


> be smart. no one in management would blame kobe. HE'S THEIR FRANCHISE FOOL!!!!!!!!! Phil i assume is trying not to stir up things more than he already did, especially knowing that he might sign back with them. common sense. why would he talk bad about kobe when he came out with the book, but after knowing that he might sign back with them claim that they smoothed things over? not coincidence my lacking friend. oh no its not.


Exactly

And back on the Shaq leaving Lakers issue, If I remember correctly, Shaq even said in a song that Kobe drove him out of L.A


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> Phil i assume is trying not to stir up things more than he already did, especially knowing that he might sign back with them. common sense. why would he talk bad about kobe when he came out with the book, but after knowing that he might sign back with them claim that they smoothed things over? not coincidence my lacking friend. oh no its not.


first off... phil said they smoothed things over before the book came out before he probly thought he mite return...

second...if u like reading between the lines...if kobe did him so wrong why would he come back?

third... ur whole point is based on ur assumption of why Phil would say something... and we are sposed to take that as fact... all we know is wat he said and when he said it...

*the only person twisting it here is u friend... ur twisting what Phil said into ur own assumption that puts blame on Kobe*


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

Nique21 said:


> Exactly
> 
> And back on the Shaq leaving Lakers issue, If I remember correctly, Shaq even said in a song that Kobe drove him out of L.A


 :laugh: :laugh: then its true... im sure u could find much more quotes from Shaq about how Kobe did him bad... hell i think thats what this thread was about 14 pages ago


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

i realize that everything someone says that benefits kobe you all believe, but when it goes against him you all bash it and claim it not to be true. there is a common denomenator with phil, shaq, and Malone leaving, and it aint the cali sun baby.


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

shobe42 said:


> :laugh: :laugh: then its true... im sure u could find much more quotes from Shaq about how Kobe did him bad... hell i think thats what this thread was about 14 pages ago


What reason do I have not to believe him? He sounded rather serious in the song. Plus it doesent take a brain surgeon to figure out that Kobe ran Shaq and Phil out


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> i realize that everything someone says that benefits kobe you all believe, but when it goes against him you all bash it and claim it not to be true. there is a common denomenator with phil, shaq, and Malone leaving, and it aint the cali sun baby.



once again can't answer my question... 

thats okay the truth would make u look bad...

anyway...u have just about given up by not answering posts and returning to the same point...

so i gotta go but... if phil said ''yea kobe kicked me out he made me leave'' you wouldnt here **** from me...

shaqs opinoin is basically useless... he always acts a fool in his inereviews its funny


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

Nique21 said:


> What reason do I have not to believe him? He sounded rather serious in the song. Plus it doesent take a brain surgeon to figure out that Kobe ran Shaq and Phil out


if u believe everything shaq says when he sounds serious... then i leave u with this...

"Kobe's my idol. I told him that." - Shaq

--or better--

"Kobe is the best player in the game... by far." - Shaq

please tip ur waiters... i gotts to go


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

maybe shaq does believe that, but he just doesnt like him


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> Really...?
> 
> If it wasn't for Kobe that series would have been a sweep, Shaq couldn't do anything against the Pistons frontline, for god's sake Elden Campbell was outhustling Shaq, and outrebounding him.


What the hell is this bull****? Did you even watch the finals?!


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

gian said:


> What the hell is this bull****? Did you even watch the finals?!


yeah i did, and i noticed that Shaq didn't hustle for any loose balls.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> yeah i did, and i noticed that Shaq didn't hustle for any loose balls.


Notice that Shaq was dominating but Kobe was like "What about MY stats?!"


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

gian said:


> Notice that Shaq was dominating but Kobe was like "What about MY stats?!"


No i never saw that, I think you saw a different game.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

tatahbenitez said:


> I don't think Phil was fired, he was let go by Buss after Phil asked for 10 million a year. But Phil knew he wasn't coming back. The Lakers were going in a different direction and he asked for a high price knowing Buss would say no to any kind of raise. But now, I think, that 10 million is a bargain for The Lakers. Phil is in the drivers seat now and can ask, and probably will ask, for a "huge raise". And if Buss thought Shaqs asking price was high, wait till Phil begins negociations.


Jackson asked for $12M per year, not $10M, which was just his way of saying I'm only going to come back if you pay me ridiculous money. Rudy got a 5 year $50M deal, that's as high as Buss was willing to go for any coach, including Coach K when the Lakers were originally trying to go after him this summer.

More than likely, Phil will get the $50M deal if he comes back to the NBA at all this season. Perhaps more though, who knows.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Nique21 said:


> I'm also on your side, no one is afraid of the Laker fans, it's just that this board is notorious for Banning anyone who continues to argue with Laker fans, so that's why I sometimes back off after making my point, but it's going to change now
> 
> It seems as if everytime a Laker fan argues with a Non-Laker fan, it's usually the Non-Laker fan who gets punished by the mods. Maybe the mods are the ones who are afraid of Laker fans :banana:


No, it's because most Laker haters don't read the rules, and get banned. 



shobe42 said:


> really?? whos been banned??


Nique21 has been banned at least twice. Probably more. I don't think he has taken the hint yet. Hell, he's probably posted more about Kobe than his favorite team. Mack Ten reincarnated?


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> No i never saw that, I think you saw a different game.


*sigh* It's okay, I think you were just 14 when the game showed? It's alright not to notice things.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

gian said:


> *sigh* It's okay, I think you were just 14 when the game showed? It's alright not to notice things.


So your gonna use the age card because you can't make a smart reply to the fact that I said "Shaq wasn't dominating, and that if it wasn't for Kobe it would have been a sweep", very mature.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

gian said:


> *sigh* It's okay, I think you were just 14 when the game showed? It's alright not to notice things.


 Good move Gian just give it up: it's quite obvious that Mr. thug_immortal will refuse to admit that his favorite player could have any weakness or actually play a bad series


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

Pioneer10 said:


> Good move Gian just give it up: it's quite obvious that Mr. thug_immortal will refuse to admit that his favorite player could have any weakness or actually play a bad series


I'll admit Kobe has weaknesses and I'll admit that Kobe played a bad series, but I know that if it wasn't for Kobe the finals would have been a sweep.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

i don't even know why people are arguing about the finals, this whole thing was about Shaq having to stop talking sh*t about Kobe, since it is obvious he is jealous.


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

thug_immortal8 said:


> i don't even know why people are arguing about the finals, this whole thing was about Shaq having to stop talking sh*t about Kobe, since it is obvious he is jealous.


Shaq has no reason to be jealous of Kobe.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

7thwatch said:


> Shaq has no reason to be jealous of Kobe.


He is jealous of the fact that the Lakers chose Kobe over him.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> He is jealous of the fact that the Lakers chose Kobe over him.


Ding Ding Ding!!! We have a winner. Case closed. :cheers:


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## @[email protected] (Jan 19, 2005)

jealous what?title contender jealous someone cant make payoffs? :clap:


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

how did lakers choose kobe over him? its your team and u dont know sh*t. shaq demanded to be traded. not for them to choose. you dont know anything about basketball.


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## BBB (Jan 19, 2005)

duncan2k5 said:


> how did lakers choose kobe over him? its your team and u dont know sh*t. shaq demanded to be traded. not for them to choose. you dont know anything about basketball.


It was Kobe's contract year, and the Lakers had the choice to either pay for Kobe or extend Shaq's contract (which I felt was a bit ridiculous). In the end, the Lakers chose Kobe, especially since Kobe is younger and will most probably have some of his best years of his career ahead of him. This then led to Shaq's trade demand.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Max Payne said:


> I agree with you Paul, about murder and rape being the worst crimes but I've always felt that adultery is pretty serious as well, if not nearly in the same league as those two, so I should have made myself clearer. About JFK and Clinton, like I said I overstated adultery and almost equated it with other horrible crimes but Bush is someone I hold in contempt. He got into Yale and Harvard because of his family and did pretty terribly while he was there, whereas Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar. I don't want to get too deep into politics but Clinton and JFK were much more adept at leading America than any Bush ever will be ( messed up gene pools do that to you).


Are you serious? Adultery is "nearly in the same league" as *murder and rape*???


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> how did lakers choose kobe over him? its your team and u dont know sh*t. shaq demanded to be traded. not for them to choose. you dont know anything about basketball.


Shaq was under contract Einstein. "You don't know anything about basketball". Right. :laugh:


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

duncan2k5 said:


> what facts? you all just try ot spin everything so kobe looks good. you dont read between the lines. like when i told somebody that kobe wasnt clutch this year ( way before the bobcat shot) they tried to prove me wrong by bringing up false ways kobe was clutch this season. you all cant admit something bad about kobe.


You read between the lines so much, while others present facts such as he said this, he did that. You speculate and we're the ones looking reaching for more than what's there?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Nique21 said:


> You're right. Every single Laker fan that posts on this board will never admit anything bad about Kobe. He hasnt been Clutch this year at all, and he hasnt been nearly as clutch as he was when he was with Shaq. But Laker fans don't wanna hear it, they try to spin it around and turn it into a positive for Kobe
> 
> I bet they all think that Kobe actually never cheated on his wife and Kobe was probably just badgered into saying it, lol


None of this is true. What is true is you all can not except Lakers fans admitting that Kobe is to blame for a part of what has gone wrong, instead you expect us to blame Kobe for everything he's ever been associated with, which we will not.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

7thwatch said:


> Shaq has no reason to be jealous of Kobe.


Maybe he might be jealous because Kobe became more popular.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

gian said:


> *sigh* It's okay, I think you were just 14 when the game showed? It's alright not to notice things.


Shaq could have done a few things different in the finals. Tex complained adamently about him not running the floor with Detroits big men, that led to alot of easy fast break point for the Pistons. This will not show up in a box score. He also did not rebound as well as the Lakers needed. Detroit grabbed alot of offensive rebounds. Shaq doesn't always box out. He grabs alot of his boards because of his size. Overall he played well. But you have to be objective at some point, and evaluate his performance as the teams leader of a team that was heavily favored to win and they did not. Each and every player for LA last year could have done somethings differently to help the Laker win that series, or at least make it more competitive, Shaq included.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

IV said:


> I'm not sure if his contract did in fact expired_(I thought he just wanted to renegotiate, could be wrong)_, but that contract was able to be renewed and he chose not to except the offer, so he resigned.
> It's not like LA did want him back, they wanted him back, they just couldn't afford his demands.



Sorry for the late response, but Phil signed on The Lakers for 5 years. That means last year was the final year of his contract. When Phil's contract expired, he asked for 10 million a year, which Buss did not accept. That means Phil was let go. He did not retire. Although, Phil did "semi-retire" after he was let go. I think after 5 years of Kobe and Shq bickering would be more than enough for someone to take a break.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

IV said:


> Maybe he might be jealous because Kobe became more popular.



I have to agree that Kobe was more popular than Shaq. Especially, in the Los Angeles area. I was only one of a few fans who thought trading Shaq was wrong and the way The Lakers did it was even worse, but most fans were celebrating that Kobe's "crutch" was gone and now Kobe could go on and become the player of destiny that he was to become. They said that Shaq was too lazy and would never get back in shape, Kobe was young and talented and showed glimpses of MJ in his prime. When Buss traded Shaq for Lamar, Butler, and Grant, I knew that Buss was also trying to copy the Chicago Bulls of the 90's.

Now, it's less than a year since all that crap happened and The Lakers are in verge of missing the playoffs, their new coach had to resign for "health" reasons, and they are thinking of bringing back Phil, though Kobe thought the triangle offense was not utilized to help him bring out his full potential. And what makes it worse it that Shaq is heading into the playoffs, with the Miami heat, as the #1 seed in the east (though some of you think that if Miami were in the West they would be fighting to get into the playoffs).


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

tatahbenitez said:


> Sorry for the late response, but Phil signed on The Lakers for 5 years. That means last year was the final year of his contract. When Phil's contract expired, he asked for 10 million a year, which Buss did not accept.


No, incorrect. You've already been told that he asked for $12M per year, he even said so in his book. 



> That means Phil was let go. He did not retire.


No, Buss decided not to overpay him. Good business decision. Phil is not at all coaching the NBA this season. He clearly needed a break. 



tatahbenitez said:


> They said that Shaq was too lazy and would never get back in shape,


No actually, a lot of fans saw that Shaq could get motivated for money. And believe you me, his only motivation right now is a fat contract extension to the tune of $90M+. Same thing happened in 2000, when he was unanimous MVP. It was basically a contract year for him, and he got his contract that summer. 



> When Buss traded Shaq for Lamar, Butler, and Grant, I knew that Buss was also trying to copy the Chicago Bulls of the 90's.


Uh no, that's just coincidence at best, and it's not even that coincidental, Odom is the only player that would fit that 90's Bulls mode ala Pippen facilitating for Jordan. 



> Now, it's less than a year since all that crap happened and The Lakers are in verge of missing the playoffs, their new coach had to resign for "health" reasons,


You obviously didn't watch Rudy's resignation speech if you truly believe he retired for any other reason than health. He saw a doctor, it's well documented. 



> and they are thinking of bringing back Phil, though Kobe thought the triangle offense was not utilized to help him bring out his full potential.


No actually, Kobe just didn't want to facilitate in the triangle, he wanted to be on the wing. And it's for good reason; since being put on the wing in the triangle right after the All Star break, he's been the most unstoppable offensive player in the league, averaging 30+ ppg on near 50% shooting.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

EHL, I just noticed your sig. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I LOVE IT!!!

But I do have two problems w/ it. 1) I am not 'Stealth' at all. I am an unabashed and proud Kobe hater!!! And 2) Please capitalize that 'N' I wouldn't want people to *not* realize that I was a Kobe troll because of a capitalization error.

Thank you. :angel: :biggrin: :angel:


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Shaq is a baby. Can a baby shut up?


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> EHL, I just noticed your sig. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I LOVE IT!!!
> 
> But I do have two problems w/ it. 1) I am not 'Stealth' at all. I am an unabashed and proud Kobe hater!!! And 2) Please capitalize that 'N' I wouldn't want people to *not* realize that I was a Kobe troll because of a capitalization error.
> 
> Thank you. :angel: :biggrin: :angel:


Oh of course, my bad on the misspelling. Hell, I even clarified your "troll" status.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

EHL said:


> Oh of course, my bad on the misspelling. Hell, I even clarified your "troll" status.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Thanks, man!!!


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

EHL said:


> No actually, Kobe just didn't want to facilitate in the triangle, he wanted to be on the wing. And it's for good reason; since being put on the wing in the triangle right after the All Star break, he's been the most unstoppable offensive player in the league, averaging 30+ ppg on near 50% shooting.


Well Kobe's offensive outburst didn't last too long. He's gone back to the low percentage shooting days in a hurry. The best way to get people to shut up is outplay them and that gonna happen with that atrocious second half shooting percentage.


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## RG (Jan 1, 2003)

shobe42 said:


> first Wade better than Kobe??? i really hope your kidding... there isnt an argument here... Tmac is a good argument... Lebron is a good agument... but, Dwayne Wade? NEXT


LOL, get enough next? :laugh:


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

EHL said:


> Shaq was under contract Einstein. "You don't know anything about basketball". Right. :laugh:


dont be a fool. he said they chose kobe over shaq. they didnt have to choose anything. i know shaq was under contract. who said he wasnt? did u even read? can you even? i said shaq wanted a trade. he didn't ask LA to choose. he flat out didn't want to play for them. so you guys are WRONG. admit it. anyone who knows anything about basketball would tell you that shaq wanted a trade. he didnt ask LA to choose between him and kobe.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

duncan2k5 said:


> dont be a fool. he said they chose kobe over shaq. they didnt have to choose anything. i know shaq was under contract. who said he wasnt? did u even read? can you even? i said shaq wanted a trade. he didn't ask LA to choose. he flat out didn't want to play for them. so you guys are WRONG. admit it. anyone who knows anything about basketball would tell you that shaq wanted a trade. he didnt ask LA to choose between him and kobe.


No what happened was, after Phil Jackson left, Shaq realised that the Lakers had chosen Kobe over him, so he asked for a trade.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

duncan2k5 said:


> dont be a fool. he said they chose kobe over shaq. they didnt have to choose anything. i know shaq was under contract. who said he wasnt? did u even read? can you even? i said shaq wanted a trade. he didn't ask LA to choose. he flat out didn't want to play for them. so you guys are WRONG. admit it. anyone who knows anything about basketball would tell you that shaq wanted a trade. he didnt ask LA to choose between him and kobe.


Buss did choose Kobe over Shaq. He had his mind made up before last season was over. One of the reasons was that Shaq was "making fun" of Buss in a pre-season game saying "Show me the money" after making a dunk and looking in the direction of Buss. Also, because of the feud between Kobe and Shaq. It wasn't getting any better any the last 2 seasons with them playing together didn't produce a Championship. Almost everyone knew there were going to be changes being made. Especially after the Championship debacle with the Pistions. Even Phil Jackson knew he wasn't coming back. Phil's contract was over and Buss wasn't even negociating with him in his last year. Shaq never asked for a trade until he found out, through the media, that Phil wasn't coming back to The Lakers. Shaq knew that his time was up when that happened. He was stating all through last season that if Phil wasn't re-signed with The Lakers he would retire.

Buss was making a business decision and he made the "safe" one. He chose the younger, more athletic, and better conditioned player rather than the one who was out of shape, lazy, past his prime and boisterous (it's seems Shaq is proving Buss wrong, except for the boisterous part). But what Buss didn't take into account was that Shaq was the most dominant big man since Wilt. Shaq made everyone around him play better. Players from other teams want to play with Shaq. Part of Kobe's great play was because of Shaq (this season proves that Shaq was the foundation of Championship Laker teams). And one other thing, there was a coach named Phil Jackson who kept both players playing the best they could even though they hated each other.

Now, you can see some of the results of the break up of The Lakers. Shaq has changed Miami into a good young team into a potential contender and, so far, has the best record in the league. Kobe and "his Lakers" are fighting for their lives to try to get into the last playoff spot. And Phil Jackson is rumored to be a candidate for the head coaching position of The Lakers.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Buss made the right decision. LA could have made another push at the title this year, but without Kobe, they would not have fared well. This wasn't the type of deal that would make an immediate impact for LA, so no one should expect otherwise.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

IV said:


> Buss made the right decision. LA could have made another push at the title this year, but without Kobe, they would not have fared well.



I don't know about that. I don't think Kobe would have just left the Lakers for less money. The Clippers were offering $96 million while The Lakers offered $136 million. That's a $40 million difference and Kobe was in the middle of a small situation in Colorado. I don't think Kobe would just give up that kind of money if he didn't know what the results of the Colorado incident would be. Then The Lakers would get some players back for Kobe. I think Chicago was a place that Kobe said he loved to play in and Chicago would have been more than happy to comply.

I've made this senario before.
Kobe and Rick Fox to Chicago for...
Tyson Chandler, Antonio Davis, Jamal Crawford (was a free agent, but could do a sign and trade), and Kirk Heinrich or their #1 pick (Chicago had 2 first round picks last year)
But then I would move Jamal Crawford to Seattle for Ray Allen (remember this is before Seattle started playing well, and Jamal is a Seattle hometown hero)



Then The Lakers would have a team of...

Starters:
Gary Payton or Derek Fisher (either re-sign Derek or Payton)
Ray Allen
Devon George
Tyson Chandler
Shaq

Bench:
#1 round pick (Devon Harris or Shaun Livingston)
Kareem Rush
Luke Walton
Karl Malone or Slava (if Malone retired)
Antonio Davis
Vlade ($5 million for a veteran)


I don't know about you, but I think The Lakers would have been okay for a few years.








> This wasn't the type of deal that would make an immediate impact for LA, so no one should expect otherwise.




That's your opinion. I thought The Lakers could have gotten something better for Shaq instead of Odom, Grant, and Butler, but management was too chicken poo to trade Shaq in their conference, eventhough Shaq was too old, lazy, and out of shape to be any good.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

IV said:


> Buss made the right decision. LA could have made another push at the title this year, but without Kobe, they would not have fared well. This wasn't the type of deal that would make an immediate impact for LA, so no one should expect otherwise.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Yeah, great decision Jerry. :clap: W/ Shaq your team was the front runner for the championship every year. Now you're struggling to make the playoffs. Good job.

Ever think that they could have traded Kobe (last year or the year before) for either someone like TMac, or like 3 or 4 players to fit around Shaq, and then won another 3 titles? Isn't that what the goal is? Winning titles? Any move where you alienate Shaq is a bad, BAD move.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
> 
> Yeah, great decision Jerry. :clap: W/ Shaq your team was the front runner for the championship every year. Now you're struggling to make the playoffs. Good job.
> 
> Ever think that they could have traded Kobe (last year or the year before) for either someone like TMac, or like 3 or 4 players to fit around Shaq, and then won another 3 titles? Isn't that what the goal is? Winning titles? Any move where you alienate Shaq is a bad, BAD move.


kobe was a free agent.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

kflo said:


> kobe was a free agent.


Was he a free agent during the season? Or, the season before? Or the season before? The breakup was brewing for years. A good GM/owner would have dealt w/ it before he was looking at losing Kobe for nothing or having to trade Shaq.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> I don't know about that. I don't think Kobe would have just left the Lakers for less money. The Clippers were offering $96 million while The Lakers offered $136 million. That's a $40 million difference and Kobe was in the middle of a small situation in Colorado. I don't think Kobe would just give up that kind of money if he didn't know what the results of the Colorado incident would be. Then The Lakers would get some players back for Kobe. I think Chicago was a place that Kobe said he loved to play in and Chicago would have been more than happy to comply.
> 
> I've made this senario before.
> Kobe and Rick Fox to Chicago for...
> ...


That's alot of speculations, who knows how thing would have turned out.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
> 
> Yeah, great decision Jerry. :clap: W/ Shaq your team was the front runner for the championship every year. Now you're struggling to make the playoffs. Good job.
> 
> Ever think that they could have traded Kobe (last year or the year before) for either someone like TMac, or like 3 or 4 players to fit around Shaq, and then won another 3 titles? Isn't that what the goal is? Winning titles? Any move where you alienate Shaq is a bad, BAD move.


But Kobe was a free agent. Plus, Shaq is not the only player to leave LA. Fisher, Payton, Malone, George(hasn't played), Fox, Phil, Tex.... everyone is gone. Maybe some of those player would have stayed if Shaq was there, but they wouldn't be good enough to win a title because they weren't win they has all of them plus Kobe.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Was he a free agent during the season? Or, the season before? Or the season before? The breakup was brewing for years. A good GM/owner would have dealt w/ it before he was looking at losing Kobe for nothing or having to trade Shaq.


Jerry Buss has had LA in contention each of the past 8 years. Won went to the finals 9 times in the 80's, you should be so quick to question his judgement without at least giving him a chance to let him plan play itself through.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

IV said:


> That's alot of speculations, who knows how thing would have turned out.



More than likely, better than it is now for The Lakers.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> More than likely, better than it is now for The Lakers.


But for how long? You have to take the younger, better all around player. I know Shaq is Shaq, and everyone credits him for being the beast he is, but Shaq couldn't win with the team Kobe has either. Shaq's smarter than you think, he knows what he needs that guard to be most productive. He needs a guard like Wade, Kobe, or Penny to bring out the best in him as well. Shaq alone? Like Kobe alone? I'm not convinced.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

IV said:


> You have to take the younger, better all around player.



Like most fans of Kobe, you think he was the better all around player, but didn't take into account the presence of Shaq and what he does to affect the opposition as well as the positive effect to his teammates. I realize Kobe is a great player, but I have watched both Kobe and Shaq together in almost every game they played in 8 years and I realized who was more important to the team. I don't mean talent wise or abilitiy, but the intangibles. But most Laker fans were blinded by Kobe and the flashes of brilliance. They forgot about how much Shaq helped Kobe by just being on the floor. And they also forgot the Phil made them play together as well as they did for so long.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> Like most fans of Kobe, you think he was the better all around player, but didn't take into account the presence of Shaq and what he does to affect the opposition as well as the positive effect to his teammates. I realize Kobe is a great player, but I have watched both Kobe and Shaq together in almost every game they played in 8 years and I realized who was more important to the team. I don't mean talent wise or abilitiy, but the intangibles. But most Laker fans were blinded by Kobe and the flashes of brilliance. They forgot about how much Shaq helped Kobe by just being on the floor. And they also forgot the Phil made them play together as well as they did for so long.


Believe me, I haven't forgot about any of those things. I am a Phil, Kobe, and Shaq guy. But who get's scrutunized most? Kobe does, so it would seem that I am partial to him, but I'm not. I understand Shaq's worth to the team, I just don't think Shaq is soley responsible for helping Kobe, but not vice versa. I credit them all.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

IV said:


> Jerry Buss has had LA in contention each of the past 8 years. Won went to the finals 9 times in the 80's, you should be so quick to question his judgement without at least giving him a chance to let him plan play itself through.


What exactly do I have to wait for? Shaq's new team is challenging for the best record in basketball. Kobe's team is hoping to make the playoffs. Buss screwed the pooch. Isn't the goal to win it all? Don't you take every opportunity you have to do that? Many franchises would sacrifice everything for one championship. The Lakers decided they didn't care that they could contend for another 3-5 years w/ Shaq and dumped him for Kobe. Where's the logic in that?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> What exactly do I have to wait for? Shaq's new team is challenging for the best record in basketball. Kobe's team is hoping to make the playoffs. Buss screwed the pooch. Isn't the goal to win it all? Don't you take every opportunity you have to do that? Many franchises would sacrifice everything for one championship. The Lakers decided they didn't care that they could contend for another 3-5 years w/ Shaq and dumped him for Kobe. Where's the logic in that?


Do you think Jerry Buss is so stupid that he thought trading Shaq away and getting Odom, Butler, and Grant would place his team in contention for a title? Obviously not, so he's rebuilding. All teams experience a rebuilding phase. He could have either rebuilt with the crowd favorite, younger, all around all league player or took Shaq, who hated him, and critized him all the time for another year. Which would you decide?


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

IV said:


> Do you think Jerry Buss is so stupid that he thought trading Shaq away and getting Odom, Butler, and Grant would place his team in contention for a title? Obviously not, so he's rebuilding. All teams experience a rebuilding phase. He could have either rebuilt with the crowd favorite, younger, all around all league player or took Shaq, who hated him, and critized him all the time for another year. Which would you decide?


He was stupid for deciding it was time to rebuild when he could have won perhaps 3 more titles w/ Shaq. (In fact, that could be the stupidest decision in sports, as titles are what you play for.) And he was stupid to allow his relationship w/ Shaq to disintegrate in the first place, because he placed Kobe above him. Things were coming to a head, he should have headed it off at the pass by trading Kobe a year or two ago. The two were going to break up, and he chose the wrong one to stick w/.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> dont be a fool. he said they chose kobe over shaq. they didnt have to choose anything. i know shaq was under contract. who said he wasnt? did u even read? can you even?


You said so in your last post kid. “It’s not for the Lakers to choose”. Yes, it was, Shaq was under contract. 



> i said shaq wanted a trade. he didn't ask LA to choose. he flat out didn't want to play for them. so you guys are WRONG.


No, we’re not, he was under contract. The Lakers could have easily decided not to trade him. 



> admit it. anyone who knows anything about basketball would tell you that shaq wanted a trade. he didnt ask LA to choose between him and kobe.


You missed the point entirely, as usual. Stick to the FullSportsPress boards.



tatahbenitez said:


> More than likely, better than it is now for The Lakers.


Pretty much impossible to know, as the Heat may never win a title with Shaq and the Lakers may be winning titles in the future with Kobe, which was the whole point of the Shaq trade to begin with. Then again, you've ignored most of the facts in this thread, so ignoring yet another fact shouldn't be too hard for you to do. 



SeaNet said:


> What exactly do I have to wait for? Shaq's new team is challenging for the best record in basketball. Kobe's team is hoping to make the playoffs. Buss screwed the pooch. Isn't the goal to win it all? Don't you take every opportunity you have to do that? Many franchises would sacrifice everything for one championship. The Lakers decided they didn't care that they could contend for another 3-5 years w/ Shaq and dumped him for Kobe. Where's the logic in that?


The Lakers couldn't contend with Shaq and Kobe, they lost two years in a row, even with Malone and Payton last season, and both their contracts would be monstrous, making it basically impossible to improve the team significantly enough outside of Shaq and Kobe. 

And of course, Shaq demanded the trade in the first place.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

EHL said:


> The Lakers couldn't contend with Shaq and Kobe, they lost two years in a row, even with Malone and Payton last season, and both their contracts would be monstrous, making it basically impossible to improve the team significantly enough outside of Shaq and Kobe.
> 
> And of course, Shaq demanded the trade in the first place.


You don't feel like the Shaq and Kobe Lakers were contending for the title? Weren't they in the finals last year? And the year before (despite all the issues) they were still a load and a half in the playoffs, and SA's toughest out? You can't tell me that as a Laker fan you didn't feel like the Lakers had a great shot at the title in both of those years. And if they had traded Kobe, don't you think they could have gotten the pieces to fit around Shaq and contend as long as he could keep it going healthwise? Look at Miami, its Wade, Shaq and a bunch of scrubs and they've got as good a shot to win it all as anyone.

As far as Shaq demanding a trade, my contention all through this is that the mistakes were made years ago in how they handled him and the team. When you've got Shaq, or Michael Jordan, or TD, you make sure you have a good relationship w/ him. The Lakers totally dropped the ball by favoring Kobe over Shaq and therefore alienating him. If they'd treated him the way he deserved to be treated, no trade demand would have been issued.

Btw/ this thread will make 3000 views!!!!!


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## MiamiWade (Jan 23, 2005)

I would say SHAQ sure made some people shut up.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

MiamiWade said:


> I would say SHAQ sure made some people shut up.


Why?


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

I love how everyone says "last year lakers were good with Shaq, this year he is gone and Kobe is doing crap on his own", without taking into account the amount of other changes that have taken place!!!!

Imagine if this were the scenario. 

Coach: PJ

PG: Payton
SG: Kobe
SF: Odom
PF: Malone
C: Divac

Bench: Butler, Cook, Fisher, George

Then if they sucked you could give shaq all the credit for their previous success.


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## adam28z (Mar 16, 2005)

"In the end, Kobe forced the Lakers' hand, implying that he might leave the team via free agency before they traded Shaq away to the Heat. And now Bryant is lying in the bed that he made. " 

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...N0bQ--?slug=sk-kobe031805&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

nuff said. shaq has every reason to talk  as a laker fan, i'm ashamed kobe's constant crying and pouting eventually foulked over our "dynasty".

signed,
a laker fan who isn't blinded by kobe's oncourt ability.


edit: Seanet, you're arguing with EHL...he has "i own you" in his profile. why do you even waste your time on him? it speaks wonders about his maturity level. :cheers:


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

adam28z said:


> "In the end, Kobe forced the Lakers' hand, implying that he might leave the team via free agency before they traded Shaq away to the Heat. And now Bryant is lying in the bed that he made. "
> 
> http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...N0bQ--?slug=sk-kobe031805&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
> 
> ...


For the eighteen millionth time, if you think it was all Kobe's fault and Shaq had nothing to do with it then you are not being serious. nuff said.


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## adam28z (Mar 16, 2005)

madskillz1_99 said:


> For the eighteen millionth time, if you think it was all Kobe's fault and Shaq had nothing to do with it then you are not being serious. nuff said.


um...the majority of the blame goes to kobe, as even the popular sports media is smart enough to realize by that article. "nuff said"


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> You don't feel like the Shaq and Kobe Lakers were contending for the title? Weren't they in the finals last year? And the year before (despite all the issues) they were still a load and a half in the playoffs, and SA's toughest out? You can't tell me that as a Laker fan you didn't feel like the Lakers had a great shot at the title in both of those years.


They did have a great shot at the title both years. Difference is that Shaq wasn’t motivated in LA, he didn’t care about getting into shape. And if Kobe signs that same contract and he stays with Shaq in Miami this season, who’s their supporting cast? Even with Malone and Payton dropped into the Lakers’ laps last season, they _still_ couldn’t win the title. They _still_ nearly lost to the Spurs, one shot away from a Game 7 on the road that series. And now the Spurs have noticeably upgraded their roster, and of course Parker and Manu have each gotten better, as the Spurs have gained more chemistry. 



> And if they had traded Kobe, don't you think they could have gotten the pieces to fit around Shaq and contend as long as he could keep it going healthwise?


Uh, who the heck would the Lakers trade Kobe to last season? They wouldn’t get a thing back for Kobe without assurances from Kobe that he’d stay with that team. Remember, last season was the last year of his contract, he was a FA last summer. Who’s going to trade away their All Stars for Kobe to play him half a season and not have it in writing that he’ll be back for the foreseeable future? 



> Look at Miami, its Wade, Shaq and a bunch of scrubs and they've got as good a shot to win it all as anyone.


That’s because Wade is a great player, they have many other very good role players (Damon, Eddie, etc.), and Shaq is motivated to compete in Miami, something he was never was in LA (for whatever reason, I have no idea how a man being paid $30M per year can’t be motivated to stay in shape). 



> As far as Shaq demanding a trade, my contention all through this is that the mistakes were made years ago in how they handled him and the team. When you've got Shaq, or Michael Jordan, or TD, you make sure you have a good relationship w/ him. The Lakers totally dropped the ball by favoring Kobe over Shaq and therefore alienating him.


There was no such alienation. Phil Jackson was clearly more supportive of Shaq than Kobe throughout the championship years (in his book, Phil said this was more out of necessity, so as to not hurt Shaq’s feelings, than it was because of Kobe’s ego). Jerry Buss didn’t want to trade Kobe, that was as far as the Lakers’ organization went as to treating Kobe more favorably than Shaq (and of course the last couple months of last season, when Buss took his extension offer to Shaq off the table because Shaq wouldn’t accept being paid the highest salary in the league). 



> If they'd treated him the way he deserved to be treated, no trade demand would have been issued.


How should they have treated him differently? What did the Lakers do wrong, exactly? They offered him to be the highest paid player in the league. Shaq rejects it. They tell him to get into shape. He responds by having surgery just before training camp and healing “on company time”, coming into camp close to 400lbs. He badmouths the owner, the GM, and even Phil Jackson on occasion.

The Lakers should have treated Shaq better? Ludicrous, Shaq was the one treating the Lakers with the utmost disrespect.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> signed,
> a laker fan who isn't blinded by kobe's oncourt ability.


You’re not a Laker fan, Mr. formerly banned BBB.net member (who shall remain nameless).


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## adam28z (Mar 16, 2005)

EHL said:


> You’re not a Laker fan, Mr. formerly banned BBB.net member (who shall remain nameless).


wait, who are you to tell me i'm not a laker fan? and no, i've never been banned before, or had a previous account here, which is why you conveniently said "who shall remain nameless". looks like more b.s. you're spewing out of your mouth.

i've been a laker fan my entire life...and was a kobe fan until he pulled that crap on all los angeles fans. you need a reality check before you start throwing out b.s. accusations again. it's not my fault the popular media echoes the same sentiments as the majority of the nation regarding kobe's selfishness, childish antics, and how it's mostly his fault on the laker's pathetic state today. wake up.

oh yeah, and do lie more, ehl. your credibility just keeps on increasing.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

adam28z said:


> wait, who are you to tell me i'm not a laker fan? and no, i've never been banned before, or had a previous account here, which is why you conveniently said "who shall remain nameless". looks like more b.s. you're spewing out of your mouth.


You're pushing it. 



> i've been a laker fan my entire life...and was a kobe fan until he pulled that crap on all los angeles fans. you need a reality check before you start throwing out b.s. accusations again. it's not my fault the popular media echoes the same sentiments as the majority of the nation regarding kobe's selfishness, childish antics, and how it's mostly his fault on the laker's pathetic state today. wake up.


Classic. The national media knows best, therefore you're right. Do you religiously watch Fox News to get unbiased political analysis too? :laugh:



> oh yeah, and do lie more, ehl. your credibility just keeps on increasing.


My credibility has always been better than yours, Mr. formerly banned member.


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## adam28z (Mar 16, 2005)

"You're pushing it."


pushing what? you're the only one spewing lies and b.s. accusations / personal attacks. prove your claim. otherwise you're a liar, as i've already called you out on. funny how you won't (can't) provide proof.

"Classic. The national media knows best, therefore you're right. Do you religiously watch Fox News to get unbiased political analysis too? :laugh:"

this isn't political...you're getting desperate it seems. i drew my own conclusions, and it seems the rest of the nation agrees, except kobe fanboys who refuse to acknowledge it 

"My credibility has always been better than yours, Mr. formerly banned member."

how is a liar credible? you should ask yourself that. i've never been banned or had another account on this website... once again, prove it. what's that? you're making up lies so you can't? thought so. :clap:


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

you obviously didnt read my post before posting back EHL. i said shaq could not have felt jealous that lakers "chose" kobe over him because he demanded a trade, therefore he didnt put them in a decision to chose him or kobe. he didn't say "its me or him". he flat out wanted a trade. even if kobe went to clippers shaq would not have wanted to play for LA. so u have no point whatsoever. you need to stop riding kobe and accept the fact that he just might not be a good person. there is a reason all the "inside" ppl perfer shaq. Even Magic said "i like Kobe, but I love Shaq." Phil perferred shaq to kobe. because kobe just wasnt a good person.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

adam28z said:


> "You're pushing it."
> 
> 
> pushing what? you're the only one spewing lies and b.s. accusations / personal attacks. prove your claim. otherwise you're a liar, as i've already called you out on. funny how you won't (can't) provide proof.


What the heck are you talking about? Get over whatever complex you're going through. 



> this isn't political...you're getting desperate it seems.


And? You brought up the national media, stick to your guns or continue to lose this debate. 



> i drew my own conclusions, and it seems the rest of the nation agrees, except kobe fanboys who refuse to acknowledge it


So I guess you're thoroughly in backpeddle mode after that "The national media said so, so it must be true!" garbage? 



> how is a liar credible? you should ask yourself that. i've never been banned or had another account on this website... once again, prove it. what's that? you're making up lies so you can't? thought so. :clap:


Haha, you're too easy.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

duncan2k5 said:


> you obviously didnt read my post before posting back EHL. i said shaq could not have felt jealous that lakers "chose" kobe over him because he demanded a trade, therefore he didnt put them in a decision to chose him or kobe.


Wow, that was a pretty amazing piece of English writing there, I don't know how I could have missed your point. 



> he didn't say "its me or him". he flat out wanted a trade. even if kobe went to clippers shaq would not have wanted to play for LA.


Good lord. :laugh: Not even worth a response. 



> so u have no point whatsoever. you need to stop riding kobe and accept the fact that he just might not be a good person. there is a reason all the "inside" ppl perfer shaq. Even Magic said "i like Kobe, but I love Shaq." Phil perferred shaq to kobe. because kobe just wasnt a good person.


It's funny how kids refer to things that have absolutely nothing to do with the argument. "He wasn't a good person!". Just sad. Again, stick to the FSP boards.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

adam28z said:


> um...the majority of the blame goes to kobe, as even the popular sports media is smart enough to realize by that article. "nuff said"


That is awful, your big defense is that the "popular sports media" is smart enough to realize it!?!? That is hillarious.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

if you all realize, kobe fans are the only ones who dont have anything bad to say about him. could the rest of the world be lying? hmmm...


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## RG (Jan 1, 2003)

EHL said:


> Pretty much impossible to know, as the Heat may never win a title with Shaq and the Lakers may be winning titles in the future with Kobe, which was the whole point of the Shaq trade to begin with.


 :rofl: Ignoring just a few indicators here aren't you?




EHL said:


> The Lakers couldn't contend with Shaq and Kobe, they lost two years in a row.


Once in the finals and the other time to the eventual Champs. That's not contending?

You're being shredded EHL, something you now have in common with Kobe.


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

adam28z said:


> wait, who are you to tell me i'm not a laker fan? and no, i've never been banned before, or had a previous account here, which is why you conveniently said "who shall remain nameless". looks like more b.s. you're spewing out of your mouth.
> 
> i've been a laker fan my entire life...and was a kobe fan until he pulled that crap on all los angeles fans. you need a reality check before you start throwing out b.s. accusations again. it's not my fault the popular media echoes the same sentiments as the majority of the nation regarding kobe's selfishness, childish antics, and how it's mostly his fault on the laker's pathetic state today. wake up.
> 
> oh yeah, and do lie more, ehl. your credibility just keeps on increasing.


Don't sweat it, that is the typical EHL response. If you don't like Kobe, he will call you a formely banned member and then try to sound all smart with his smartass replies. Isnt that right EHL?


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

EHL is a 
________________.
(place word here)


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> He was stupid for deciding it was time to rebuild when he could have won perhaps 3 more titles w/ Shaq. (In fact, that could be the stupidest decision in sports, as titles are what you play for.) And he was stupid to allow his relationship w/ Shaq to disintegrate in the first place, because he placed Kobe above him. Things were coming to a head, he should have headed it off at the pass by trading Kobe a year or two ago. The two were going to break up, and he chose the wrong one to stick w/.


I believe he choose the right side. Shaq contract was ending this year, Shaq dislikes Buss, Shaq was leaving. Just like in Orlando when thing got tough, Shaq bounced. Instead of losing Kobe, and Shaq a year later, Buss decided to rebuild. He made the right decision.


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## adam28z (Mar 16, 2005)

Nique21 said:


> Don't sweat it, that is the typical EHL response. If you don't like Kobe, he will call you a formely banned member and then try to sound all smart with his smartass replies. Isnt that right EHL?


haha seriously...notice how he backs down from his lies and b.s. accusations once you point them out. he's full of it, and angry the rest of the nation hates kobe for what he is. a cancer.


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## adam28z (Mar 16, 2005)

EHL said:


> What the heck are you talking about? Get over whatever complex you're going through.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the only one backpeddaling is you. you're a proven liar. congrats. :cheers: 

sports writers don't have a "political" agenda when they tell the truth. keep on spinning the issue though.

yet you're the one who brought up foxnews. this forum is about the game of basketball. take your politics to another board.


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## adam28z (Mar 16, 2005)

RG said:


> :rofl:
> 
> You're being shredded EHL, something you now have in common with Kobe.


well said.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

adam28z said:


> sports writers don't have a "political" agenda when they tell the truth. keep on spinning the issue though.


 :raised_ey So young and naive. It's not that they have a "political" agenda, but if you don't think they have some agenda, well then.....


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## adam28z (Mar 16, 2005)

madskillz1_99 said:


> :raised_ey So young and naive. It's not that they have a "political" agenda, but if you don't think they have some agenda, well then.....


so what is the agenda? from writers who don't have a stake in either shaq, kobe, the lakers, or the heat? and how does it relate to foxnews (which was brought up by ehl)? keep talking, please.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

adam28z said:


> so what is the agenda? from writers who don't have a stake in either shaq, kobe, the lakers, or the heat? and how does it relate to foxnews (which was brought up by ehl)? keep talking, please.


Well, you see, the agenda is to stir **** up and get ratings. Pretty simple.

It relates to Fox news in that they also have a reputation for some biased "reporting" about political issues (especially during the election), i.e. Bush Good, Kerry Bad. 

Like I said, it's pretty simple.


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## adam28z (Mar 16, 2005)

madskillz1_99 said:


> Well, you see, the agenda is to stir **** up and get ratings. Pretty simple.
> 
> It relates to Fox news in that they also have a reputation for some biased "reporting" about political issues (especially during the election), i.e. Bush Good, Kerry Bad.
> 
> Like I said, it's pretty simple.


so telling the truth gets you ratings...ok.

most of the national press, aside from miami and la, has no interest in reporting nonfactual information about the matter (and they can't afford to).
not to mention most of them are are writing unbiasedly :clap: 

i hope you aren't saying most of the national media is distorting the facts 

again, why even bring up foxnews? there's no politics involved, whatsoever.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

adam28z said:


> so telling the truth gets you ratings...ok.
> 
> most of the national press, aside from miami and la, has no interest in reporting nonfactual information about the matter (and they can't afford to).
> not to mention most of them are are writing unbiasedly :clap:
> ...


Nobody should even listen to Mr. Adam, how do you expect an unbiased reply from a person who all of his posts are about Kobe.


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## adam28z (Mar 16, 2005)

thug_immortal8 said:


> Nobody should even listen to Mr. Adam, how do you expect an unbiased reply from a person who all of his posts are about Kobe.


um...because kobe ruined the lakers? the team who i've cheered for my entire life? going from a dynasty to a team that would give anything for a lottery pick right now? in less than a year no less..

everything i've stated has been factual. the truth hurts sometimes.
kobe is a cancer. <--- now that's biased 

when the national media says it as well... while standing back and looking at the facts :cheers:


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

If anyone has an "Agenda", it's Laker fans. You guys are so biased it defies reality


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

el_Diablo said:


> shaq is an idiot, but for some reason he gets a free pass to talk out of his ***.
> 
> all this garbage about kobe (I dislike em both so don't go there) has to stop... he just makes a bigger fool of himself.
> 
> ...


I agree 100% with this, and I hate both Shaq and Kobe as well. I'm not sure how Kobe has been the ubervillan in this whole mess when Shaq is the one acting like a total baby about all of this.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

RG said:


> :rofl: Ignoring just a few indicators here aren't you?


I'm not ignoring a thing, I've never said the Heat don't have a much better chance at this point in time than the Lakers. 



> Once in the finals and the other time to the eventual Champs. That's not contending?


That is contending, I never denied it wasn't (read it again for clarification). What I have been saying from the beginning is that Kobe and Shaq probably weren't going to win any more titles together. They couldn't when Payton and Malone landed in their lap. It would take a similar Payton/Malone-type miracle offseason again for the Lakers to contend, something that very likely can't happen when you have Kobe and Shaq's monstorous contracts on the books. But hey, a lot of people here don't bother reading the CBA, so that type of stuff doesn't figure into the equation for them (not surprising either, as ESPN doesn't figure in the CBA much in their analysis of any given NBA-related situation). 



> You're being shredded EHL, something you now have in common with Kobe.


Naw, I've actually brought up good points, while your contribution has amounted to "They contended!", which was never denied in the first place of course. :laugh: 



adam28z said:


> the only one backpeddaling is you. you're a *proven* liar. congrats. :cheers:


:laugh: 



> sports writers don't have a "political" agenda when they tell the truth. keep on spinning the issue though.


Wow, that's pretty naive. I don't know what to tell you if you honestly believe sports writers don't have agendas; they don't have to be “political”, they just have an agenda other than reporting factual news. And they do have an agenda (unless your name is adam28z and you believe everything you read in the newspaper). 



adam28z said:


> so telling the truth gets you ratings...ok.
> 
> most of the national press, aside from miami and la, has no interest in reporting nonfactual information about the matter (and they can't afford to).
> not to mention most of them are are writing unbiasedly :clap:
> ...


Look, you're naive, I'd just drop this argument altogether if I were you. Continually pushing a story, no matter how false or how unethical, gets ratings (depending on the story). Shaq-Kobe stories get ratings. ESPN reported Shaq was done for the season a few weeks ago based on an unconfirmed ESPN _message board_ postings. They don't really care all that much about being a credible news station, as long as they continue to generate revenue and as long as their reputation is good enough to sustain that revenue for the foreseeable future. Revenue is generated based on how many viewers see these networks' advertisements, they make 90%+ of their money on ads. It's a very, very easy concept to understand, and it's really sad you can't see the connection between national sports networks and Fox News. 



Nique21 said:


> Don't sweat it, that is the typical EHL response. If you don't like Kobe, he will call you a formely banned member and then try to sound all smart with his smartass replies. Isnt that right EHL?


Actually no, you actually have to be a formerly banned member, which in your case is a _twice_ formerly banned member. Odd that you'd deny your trolldom, you post more about the Lakers and Kobe than the Rockets, "your team".


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

Bump

Time to shred some more

And yes, I am a formely banned member, remember my past names "SkiddlyWinks" and "LickMySocks". I was a Legendary Troll


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## ballerchick (Feb 22, 2005)

yes sadly he is.


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## adam28z (Mar 16, 2005)

haha, ehl is still delusional and going at it.

so, if all the national sports writers who bash kobe have an "agenda", what's steve kerr's (the one who wrote the yahoo article i posted)?

and like i said, you haven't (and can't) prove the b.s. accusations you made about me. why? because you're full of it, and a proven liar :cheers:

keep at it, kobe fanboy.


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## OLD SKOOL NBA FAN (Jan 27, 2005)

:laugh: I can't believe what i'm hearing. Shaq has every right to diss Kobe, he made Kobe the player that he is today. Kobe's lucky that Shaq didn't beat the hell outta him for him snitching to the cops about him paying off woman. Kobe better be just grateful that Shaq is talking about him rather than beating his azz. :laugh:


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## LakerLunatic (Mar 1, 2005)

Lakers Fans are Bias? Coming from a guy with a picture of Yao Ming on his avatar, that guy is the biggest media creation since Hulk Hogan.




GO LAKERS!


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

adam28z said:


> so, if all the national sports writers who bash kobe have an "agenda", what's steve kerr's (the one who wrote the yahoo article i posted)?


What? This has little to do with just Kobe by himself. It has to do with the way national networks cover the Kobe-Shaq-Phil drama of the past few years. 



> and like i said, you haven't (and can't) prove the b.s. accusations you made about me. why? because you're full of it, and a proven liar :cheers:


The only thing that is proven is that you get easily agitated over an accusation you weren't supposed to take seriously. :laugh:



> keep at it, kobe fanboy.


I will, Shaquette.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

adam28z said:


> haha seriously...notice how he backs down from his lies and b.s. accusations once you point them out. he's full of it, and angry the rest of the nation hates kobe for what he is. a cancer.


Cancers don't win championships.
Cancers aren't perennial allstars
Cancers aren't perennial all league performers.
Cancer aren't any of the things Kobe is.
Kobe was unable to get along with Shaq. Shaq was unable to get along with Kobe. That's both of their faults. 

EHL, stop arguing with adam. He's just that type of laker fan. Keep in mind, during the dynasty years, when LA won... Kobe would only get credit if he pulled off a remarkable performance to pull us out of the hole. When LA lost, it was usually blamed on him. Kobe has always been the Lakers scapegoat, don't expect thing to change now. This type of Laker fan is the kind that will ride with the team when things are going well, and point fingers when things aren't going well.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> This type of Laker fan is the kind that will ride with the team when things are going well, and point fingers when things aren't going well.


Yeah, sadly it's a trend with Laker fans that never went through the 94 lottery season, or the early/mid-90's period. A lot of bandwagon fans with the Lakers.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

EHL said:


> Yeah, sadly it's a trend with Laker fans that never went through the 94 lottery season, or the early/mid-90's period. A lot of bandwagon fans with the Lakers.


Yup, at least they'll all get smoked out now that things aren't going so smoothly for a while.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

I've always respected the fans or players that will stand by the team in tough times. Most fans just want to be there when we're making title runs. Some players are that way as well, they'll give it there best until the team starts to decline then they want out, and it shows in there play, & it shows through their actions. LA will form another championship team, there's no doubt in my mind. It will be interesting to see how many of those same fans, who constantly complaining about the teams errors, will become fans that actually promote the team instead of birade it.


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## RG (Jan 1, 2003)

Maybe Adam is *all* about being a fan of the team?

So much so that he refuses to put an individual above the team. That's a team fan, one who believes the team is first.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

IV said:


> I've always respected the fans or players that will stand by the team in tough times. Most fans just want to be there when we're making title runs. Some players are that way as well, they'll give it there best until the team starts to decline then they want out, and it shows in there play, & it shows through their actions. LA will form another championship team, there's no doubt in my mind. It will be interesting to see how many of those same fans, who constantly complaining about the teams errors, will become fans that actually promote the team instead of birade it.



I guess I'm just a selective player band wagon Laker fan. I have been a fan since the early 80's when a young player named Magic Johnson opened my eyes to basketball. I have been through their ups (The 80's showtime and the recently disbanded Lake Show) and downs (the early 90's), but it was my disdain for one player that changed all that. I still watch every Laker game, but whenever number 8 has the ball all I can see is how a dynasty ended without having to end.

Don't get me wrong, I had been a Kobe Bryant fan since he was traded to The Lakers. I didn't care for him too much when he was with Charlotte, however briefly and I have watched him "grow" since this brash, young, talented player's first game with The Lakers. I could tell he was something special and was hoping Kobe would become the next great player that would take the NBA to the next level, just like Magic, Bird, and Jordan. But in 8 years, all I have seen is Kobe "grow" to a great individual player, but not a great team player. It is only this year that Kobe has started to defer to some of his teammates, but only because it is "Kobe's" team now. In the previous 8 seasons, I had seen glimpses of Kobe's passing and leadership skills, but they never blossomed like his offense did. Kobe never allowed himself to become part of a team, only to be the main focus of it.

This is why I was so adament about Shaq being traded. Most LA fans were to enthralled at Kobe's talent to see what he lacked. And these fans were also blinded at the aura of Kobe to see that Shaq was the main catalyst on the Laker team. Even though Shaq was out of shape, lazy, and over the hill, I could "see" how dominant he was on the court. Now, Miami can see it and the new Lakers can see it, and now some of the fans have opened their eyes and can see it too.

And I don't mind if The Lakers win another Championship. In fact, I'd be estatic. I just hope they can afford Shaq and Phil next year, if they want thatChampionship. :biggrin: :yes: :clap: :guitar: :twave: :basket: :jump: :wbanana:


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

adam28z said:


> um...because kobe ruined the lakers? the team who i've cheered for my entire life? going from a dynasty to a team that would give anything for a lottery pick right now? in less than a year no less..
> 
> everything i've stated has been factual. the truth hurts sometimes.
> kobe is a cancer. <--- now that's biased
> ...


Thank you, Adam28z. Couldn't agree with you more. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

tatahbenitez said:


> I guess I'm just a selective player band wagon Laker fan. I have been a fan since the early 80's when a young player named Magic Johnson opened my eyes to basketball. I have been through their ups (The 80's showtime and the recently disbanded Lake Show) and downs (the early 90's), but it was my disdain for one player that changed all that. I still watch every Laker game, but whenever number 8 has the ball all I can see is how a dynasty ended without having to end.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I had been a Kobe Bryant fan since he was traded to The Lakers. I didn't care for him too much when he was with Charlotte, however briefly and I have watched him "grow" since this brash, young, talented player's first game with The Lakers. I could tell he was something special and was hoping Kobe would become the next great player that would take the NBA to the next level, just like Magic, Bird, and Jordan. But in 8 years, all I have seen is Kobe "grow" to a great individual player, but not a great team player. It is only this year that Kobe has started to defer to some of his teammates, but only because it is "Kobe's" team now. In the previous 8 seasons, I had seen glimpses of Kobe's passing and leadership skills, but they never blossomed like his offense did. Kobe never allowed himself to become part of a team, only to be the main focus of it.
> 
> ...


I can´t agree with you, benitez.
Don't get me wrong, Shaq is my favourite NBA player, but i try to see things in an unpassionated way, albeit beeing a Laker fan. And, as far as i´m concerned, people have been pointing fingers at Kobe for "dismantling" the Lakers far too long.

Kobe is not a selfish player. Selfish in terms that he would sacrificy the team to post-padd. Even when he went into that insane scoring spree, the team was fat and happy, and even Shaq was proclaiming Kobe to be the best player in the world.
I´m too lazy to look up stats, but i´m willing to bet there´s no 5 SGs around who have more apg in te last 5 years. And no 2SGs who have more triple doubles.

The real case for the Lakers dismay (sp?) is easy: 2 huge egos who couldn´t coexist no longer. I blame both Kobe and Shaq for that. Shaq wouldn´t accept Kobe growing importance in the team, for he saw it as a threat to his "all-mighty" status in the organization. Kobe, on the other hand, wouldn´t stay in Shaq´s shadow no longer.

Remeber the "It´s my team"/"No, it´s my team" petty squabble? That´s right. They acted like punks. both of them. I can´sincerely remeber the last time the same team had 2 of the top 5 players in the league, and who both had the need to shine.
Bird (who was a punk himself) had no problem sharing the spotlight with McHale and Parish. Jordan (another punk) co-existed nicely with Pippen. Chuck with Doc and Mo, etc, etc..

I hate to see our current situation, but i won´t put the blame solely in Kobe´s shoulders. IMHO, it´s Kobe´s, Shaq´s, Buss's and SuckChap's fault.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Displaced anger. Kobe immaturity should be no more to blame, than Phil's greed for a better contact. Shaq's greed for more money, to me this is no different than what Spree did in Minny. I guess you can be mad at Buss for not paying then what they wanted, but that just one way to look at it. There's alot of fault here, not all Kobe's. Thing could be alot different and they would if: Kobe was able to get along with Shaq and Phil, if he played to their likings, moreso than his individual strentghs. Also, if Shaq did want more money when he knew the team could afford what he was asking, same with Phil. Shaq could have played through his contract. Phil could have accepted the offer on the table. The only way LA could have afforded that is if Kobe left, and that's what Shaq was trying to do. Phil was pushing Kobe out as well. Kobe is the guy against all odds, he always has been. I'm sure he is to blame for a part, but it's just not reasonable to place all the blame on him, because he won a tug of war between Shaq, Phil. There didn't have to be a power struggle to begin with, all those involved are to blame. I look at this from the teams perspective. This was a tough on to swallow for management.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> I can´t agree with you, benitez.
> Don't get me wrong, Shaq is my favourite NBA player, but i try to see things in an unpassionated way, albeit beeing a Laker fan. And, as far as i´m concerned, people have been pointing fingers at Kobe for "dismantling" the Lakers far too long.
> 
> Kobe is not a selfish player. Selfish in terms that he would sacrificy the team to post-padd. Even when he went into that insane scoring spree, the team was fat and happy, and even Shaq was proclaiming Kobe to be the best player in the world.
> ...



Good post, Paulo

It's amazing how selfish alot of fans say Kobe is, while not acknowledging how selfish Shaq's comments were all along. They both screwed things up in LA. If they both could have been more professional, more selfless, they could of had a real good shot at having 5 rings and on their way to winning a 6th.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> I can´t agree with you, benitez.
> Don't get me wrong, Shaq is my favourite NBA player, but i try to see things in an unpassionated way, albeit beeing a Laker fan. And, as far as i´m concerned, people have been pointing fingers at Kobe for "dismantling" the Lakers far too long.


Kobe was not being blamed in the beginning of the season. In fact, most Laker fans were happy that Kobe was playing without his "crutch" to hold him back. I was only a few fans who thought trading Shaq was not needed and would be more of a loss that Kobe. I am very passionate about this because I am a longtime Laker fan, I have watched almost every game Kobe and Shaq had played in the past 8 year and when I see that my favorite team is going to do something that I think will hurt the team more than it would help it, then I will have my say. And if this stupid action is done, then I will complain about it. 








> Kobe is not a selfish player. Selfish in terms that he would sacrificy the team to post-padd. Even when he went into that insane scoring spree, the team was fat and happy, and even Shaq was proclaiming Kobe to be the best player in the world.


I haven't said that Kobe is selfish. All I said was...



> But in 8 years, all I have seen is Kobe "grow" to a great individual player, but not a great team player. It is only this year that Kobe has started to defer to some of his teammates, but only because it is "Kobe's" team now. In the previous 8 seasons, I had seen glimpses of Kobe's passing and leadership skills, but they never blossomed like his offense did. Kobe never allowed himself to become part of a team, only to be the main focus of it.


Kobe can be a great passer and a great teammate. But he has only shown glimpses if it. To me, Kobe wants to more of the main offensive force.









> The real case for the Lakers dismay (sp?) is easy: 2 huge egos who couldn´t coexist no longer. I blame both Kobe and Shaq for that. Shaq wouldn´t accept Kobe growing importance in the team, for he saw it as a threat to his "all-mighty" status in the organization. Kobe, on the other hand, wouldn´t stay in Shaq´s shadow no longer.


I think, Shaq knew the importance of Kobe on the team, but Kobe was too impatient and wanted to "take over" as soon as possible. And that is also the reason why Phil was not re-signed with The Lakers. Phil made the offense go through Shaq instead of the young, great Kobe.









> Remeber the "It´s my team"/"No, it´s my team" petty squabble? That´s right. They acted like punks. both of them. I can´sincerely remeber the last time the same team had 2 of the top 5 players in the league, and who both had the need to shine.


To me this is more of Kobe being too impatient and wanting to show what he can do without his "crutch". Do you think Shaq didn't know Kobe would someday take over his mantle as leader? In fact, do you think Phil didn't know that someday he would have to tell Shaq that it's time for Kobe to take over? Magic waited until Kareem knew he couldn't carry the team on his back anymore. Shaq was still a dominant force and he knew that, Kobe just didn't want to wait. Kobe got a crash course on what it means to be a leader, instead of gradually filling that role.









> I hate to see our current situation, but i won´t put the blame solely in Kobe´s shoulders. IMHO, it´s Kobe´s, Shaq´s, Buss's and SuckChap's fault.


I don't put all the blame on Kobe. I just put the majority of the blame on him. I give Buss, his girlfriend Mitch, and Shaq some of the blame, but, in my eyes, Kobe should not be a Laker.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

IV said:


> Shaq's greed for more money, to me this is no different than what Spree did in Minny. I guess you can be mad at Buss for not paying then what they wanted, but that just one way to look at it.


Sorry, but Shaq believing he is worth a certain amount and comparing that to Sprewell saying he isn't earning enough because he needs to feed his family is a little different. Buss didn't believe Shaq was worth the $30 million, but Miami did and Shaq is proving his worth. Sprewell is not worth the $14 million and is also showing it too.








> Thing could be alot different and they would if: Kobe was able to get along with Shaq and Phil, if he played to their likings, moreso than his individual strentghs.


Only if. :buddies: 








> Shaq could have played through his contract.


The Lakers should have made him play through his contract and I had been trying to say that since the end of last season. The only problem was that if Shaq were still there, Kobe wouldnt have signed with The Lakers. The Lakers were too afraid to lose Kobe to free agency that they threw away all the "crutches" of Kobe so their prima donna wouldn't leave.








> Phil could have accepted the offer on the table.


The only offer on the table was Phil's $10 million a year. Which was immediately refused. Buss did offer Phil (his future son-in-law?) a job as one of the presidents of The Lakers as a peace offering, but Buss knew Phil wouldn't take it. The Lakers were trying to get rid of all of Kobe's "crutches".








> The only way LA could have afforded that is if Kobe left, and that's what Shaq was trying to do. Phil was pushing Kobe out as well. I'm sure he is to blame for a part, but it's just not reasonable to place all the blame on him, because he won a tug of war between Shaq, Phil.


There is good reason to listen to a Hall of Fame coach and one of the greatest centers of all time, but everything went in one ear and out the other for Buss. All he could hear was the rush of air whenever Kobe took off to the basket.








> There didn't have to be a power struggle to begin with, all those involved are to blame. I look at this from the teams perspective. This was a tough on to swallow for management.


The management made their bed and have to live with it. Kobe has made his bed and has to live with it. Shaq has made his been and has to live with it. Let's see whose bed is better to sleep in now.


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## adam28z (Mar 16, 2005)

RG said:


> Maybe Adam is *all* about being a fan of the team?
> 
> So much so that he refuses to put an individual above the team. That's a team fan, one who believes the team is first.


you summed it up there.
funny how these kobe fanboys can't take any criticism.

i'm a bandwagon fan? lol...if by bandwagon you mean watching every single laker game in the 90's....having to endure divac, campbell, jones, van excel, ceballos, threat, peeler....waiting every year for that one big man to take us over the top....THEN FINALLY signing the most dominant force in the nba in shaq....and then watching kobe destroy and dismantle everything...

thanks kobe.

also, notice how ehl can't answer for the lies that he made up  dodging the question much? he also can't answer why steve kerr was bashing kobe. what's HIS agenda ehl? oh what's that? he's just reporting the news and writes what he sees? thought so. go ahead and provide another b.s. answer that dodges the quesiton :cheers:


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

EHL said:


> Yeah, sadly it's a trend with Laker fans that never went through the 94 lottery season, or the early/mid-90's period. A lot of bandwagon fans with the Lakers.


What a bunch of bologna

The truth is that Fans like YOU (The one's who ride Kobe's jock) are the ones who just became Laker fans during the 3-Peat only because of Kobe and Shaq

The true fans are the ones who have watched the Lakers before Kobe Bryant even learned to ride a bicycle, and I believe adam28z and even tahtahbenitez are those kind of fans because they arent just the Bandwagon fans who jumped on just to ride Kobe's jock and defend him at any possible time throughout his career, instead threy actually see him for the fraud he is


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Nique21 said:


> What a bunch of bologna
> 
> The truth is that Fans like YOU (The one's who ride Kobe's jock) are the ones who just became Laker fans during the 3-Peat only because of Kobe and Shaq
> 
> The true fans are the ones who have watched the Lakers before Kobe Bryant even learned to ride a bicycle, and I believe adam28z and even tahtahbenitez are those kind of fans because they arent just the Bandwagon fans who jumped on just to ride Kobe's jock and defend him at any possible time throughout his career, instead threy actually see him for the fraud he is


Let me get this straight:
IF
1- Laker fans who like Kobe are bandwaggoners;
AND
2- Laker fans who criticise Kobe are true fans;
AND
3- Laker fans who criticise Kobe are riding Kobe´s "jock"
THEN

What to do you call Lakers fans that 
4- Like both players;
AND
5- Criticise both players?

:whoknows:


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> What to do you call Lakers fans that
> 4- Like both players;
> AND
> 5- Criticise both players?
> ...


Someone who can't make up their mind. :argue: 

Seriously, I wish I could be that neutral, but I have seen too many games with Kobe and Shaq that I have already made up my mind. Maybe, if I'm drunk 24/7, then maybe I could blame Kobe less. :cheers:


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> Sorry, but Shaq believing he is worth a certain amount and comparing that to Sprewell saying he isn't earning enough because he needs to feed his family is a little different. Buss didn't believe Shaq was worth the $30 million, but Miami did and Shaq is proving his worth. Sprewell is not worth the $14 million and is also showing it too.


Shaq got what he wanted. When Shaq was not getting what he wanted he's worth was not the same. Spree is stuck, so he's not worth 14 mil, if you gave him what he wants he might be worth that much.




> The Lakers should have made him play through his contract and I had been trying to say that since the end of last season. The only problem was that if Shaq were still there, Kobe wouldnt have signed with The Lakers. The Lakers were too afraid to lose Kobe to free agency that they threw away all the "crutches" of Kobe so their prima donna wouldn't leave.


It's easy for you to blame Kobe, so go ahead. If you could take a look at what you just wrote, and see it for what it is from a business stand point(not a fan's standpoint), you'd be anger at Shaq as well. There is no way Buss would risk losing both his stars, when he could only lose one. Waiting on SHaq to resign, with his history, and knowing his feeling towards you, no chance.



> The only offer on the table was Phil's $10 million a year. Which was immediately refused. Buss did offer Phil (his future son-in-law?) a job as one of the presidents of The Lakers as a peace offering, but Buss knew Phil wouldn't take it. The Lakers were trying to get rid of all of Kobe's "crutches".


Your speculation is not more credible than others.



> There is good reason to listen to a Hall of Fame coach and one of the greatest centers of all time, but everything went in one ear and out the other for Buss. All he could hear was the rush of air whenever Kobe took off to the basket.


Have you once considered that Phil and Shaq could have done something.... anything different and things would not be in dismal?



> The management made their bed and have to live with it. Kobe has made his bed and has to live with it. Shaq has made his been and has to live with it. Let's see whose bed is better to sleep in now.


Still looking for immediate results. That's why you don't like Kobe or Buss. You don't understand why Buss traded Shaq, and you don't have the patience to wait and find out.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

the posts in this thread are getting waaaaay too long, i don't have all day to read through this stuff!


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

IV said:


> Still looking for immediate results. That's why you don't like Kobe or Buss. You don't understand why Buss traded Shaq, and you don't have the patience to wait and find out.


I understand that even before The Lakers traded Shaq, I knew they were making a mistake. I don't care about immediate results. I care about my team dismantling a Championship calibur team and not getting, at least, a reasonable exchange. I know The Lakers will be back to Championship form. Kobe has the advantage in playing in a city where nothing less than a Championship is considered a good season. But it didn't have to come to this and I know it's going to be very hard to rebuild considering all that has happened.

I know why Buss traded Shaq. All our reasons, although different, are, in fact, the explanation. Shaq wanted a to renegociate his contract and be the highest paid basketball player. Buss didn't want that because he wanted to go with Kobe. Buss thought Shaq wasn't worth the $30 million a year, especially when Shaq was out of shape, lazy, and was going to be in his mid thirties during this new contract. Buss also knew that Kobe would think twice before re-signing with the Lakers if he knew that Shaq was going to return too. That is also another reason why Shaq was traded. The release of Phil (Phil did not quit) was the reason/excuse both Buss and Shaq needed.







> It's easy for you to blame Kobe, so go ahead. If you could take a look at what you just wrote, and see it for what it is from a business stand point(not a fan's standpoint), you'd be anger at Shaq as well. There is no way Buss would risk losing both his stars, when he could only lose one. Waiting on SHaq to resign, with his history, and knowing his feeling towards you, no chance.


I know it was a business decision and Buss went with the young talented Kobe. But he didn't take into account Phil and Shaqs contributions. I was always saying, go with the proven product not the newer one. Shaq and Phil's asking price may have been incredibly high, but if you want Championships, sometimes you have to pay for it. And I think, The Lakers could have gotten some great deals if they traded Kobe instead (I know he was an unrestricted free agent, but I don't think Kobe would have thrown away $40 million)








> Your speculation is not more credible than others.


What speculation is that? You mean that Phil was one of Kobe's "crutches". I didn't see Kobe try to tell Buss to keep Phil. Kobe was even stated saying the triangle was hampering his performance. But that was because the triangle was flowing through Shaq. It wasn't Phil's fault, but Phil was coach and knew where the tran Now, Phil is a possible candidate for the Laker coaching job next year? Let's see how much The Lakers are going to pay for Phil this time.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> I understand that even before The Lakers traded Shaq, I knew they were making a mistake. I don't care about immediate results. I care about my team dismantling a Championship calibur team and not getting, at least, a reasonable exchange. I know The Lakers will be back to Championship form. Kobe has the advantage in playing in a city where nothing less than a Championship is considered a good season. But it didn't have to come to this and I know it's going to be very hard to rebuild considering all that has happened.


Well we always say anything worth doing won't be easy. It much easier to say in hindsight, he should of done this. Maybe, things would be better if he kept Shaq, but who knows so there isn't much point in harping on what you think was a mistake. To me, one more year of championship ball, at the expense of losing Shaq for good, Phil retiring and having lost Kobe the year before was simply too much a risk to take.



> I know why Buss traded Shaq. All our reasons, although different, are, in fact, the explanation. Shaq wanted a to renegociate his contract and be the highest paid basketball player. Buss didn't want that because he wanted to go with Kobe. Buss thought Shaq wasn't worth the $30 million a year, especially when Shaq was out of shape, lazy, and was going to be in his mid thirties during this new contract. Buss also knew that Kobe would think twice before re-signing with the Lakers if he knew that Shaq was going to return too. That is also another reason why Shaq was traded. The release of Phil (Phil did not quit) was the reason/excuse both Buss and Shaq needed.


This is also a reason why Shaq is to blame. Had he been loyal to the Lakers and upheld his current contract, played through this season, we'd be in contention, he could have opted out after this year, and things probably wouldn't be as bad as they are. 




> I know it was a business decision and Buss went with the young talented Kobe. But he didn't take into account Phil and Shaqs contributions. I was always saying, go with the proven product not the newer one. Shaq and Phil's asking price may have been incredibly high, but if you want Championships, sometimes you have to pay for it. And I think, The Lakers could have gotten some great deals if they traded Kobe instead (I know he was an unrestricted free agent, but I don't think Kobe would have thrown away $40 million)


I'm sure he did take those things into account. But I don't know why you consider Shaq proven but Kobe not? Everything Shaq proved he did it with Kobe. Plus, I don't think LA was in any position to trade KObe since he was a free agent, and surely would structure his contract to be paid then dismissed.



> What speculation is that? You mean that Phil was one of Kobe's "crutches". I didn't see Kobe try to tell Buss to keep Phil. Kobe was even stated saying the triangle was hampering his performance. But that was because the triangle was flowing through Shaq. It wasn't Phil's fault, but Phil was coach and knew where the tran Now, Phil is a possible candidate for the Laker coaching job next year? Let's see how much The Lakers are going to pay for Phil this time.


They can pay for Phil now because they don't have to squeeze Shaq in as well.


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

Ok, we get the point, Trix are for Kids and Don't ever do drugs

Now can we lock this thread already? :banana:


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> also, notice how ehl can't answer for the lies that he made up dodging the question much? he also can't answer why steve kerr was bashing kobe. what's HIS agenda ehl? oh what's that? he's just reporting the news and writes what he sees? thought so. go ahead and provide another b.s. answer that dodges the quesiton


See previous post for ownage. 



Nique21 said:


> What a bunch of bologna
> 
> The truth is that Fans like YOU (The one's who ride Kobe's jock) are the ones who just became Laker fans during the 3-Peat only because of Kobe and Shaq
> 
> The true fans are the ones who have watched the Lakers before Kobe Bryant even learned to ride a bicycle, and I believe adam28z and even tahtahbenitez are those kind of fans because they arent just the Bandwagon fans who jumped on just to ride Kobe's jock and defend him at any possible time throughout his career, instead threy actually see him for the fraud he is


Naw, I've been watching since the 80's. You, on the other hand, continue to stealth troll Laker topics, pretending to be a Rockets fan. Sad, really.


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## adam28z (Mar 16, 2005)

Nique21 said:


> What a bunch of bologna
> 
> The truth is that Fans like YOU (The one's who ride Kobe's jock) are the ones who just became Laker fans during the 3-Peat only because of Kobe and Shaq
> 
> The true fans are the ones who have watched the Lakers before Kobe Bryant even learned to ride a bicycle, and I believe adam28z and even tahtahbenitez are those kind of fans because they arent just the Bandwagon fans who jumped on just to ride Kobe's jock and defend him at any possible time throughout his career, instead threy actually see him for the fraud he is



bingo. they still can't even ADMIT the majority of the blame goes to kobe. are they true laker fans? absolutely not. they're nothing but kobe fanboys.


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## adam28z (Mar 16, 2005)

EHL said:


> See previous post for ownage.


what ownage? you backing down and not providing any proof whatsoever about you b.s. claim? you're a proven liar. try again. and you STILL haven't answered what was steve kerr's "agenda".


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

adam28z said:


> what ownage? you backing down and not providing any proof whatsoever about you b.s. claim?


I already addressed it, _read_ the previous post. 

Amazing how long time Laker fans (who are 30 or so I assume) have this much trouble with reading comprehension. 



> and you STILL haven't answered what was steve kerr's "agenda".


And you STILL haven't explained why you believe that national sports media and networks like Fox News don't have a lot in common in terms of their agenda. Do you deny that they share one in the same purpose; generating revenue by reporting news that receives maximum ratings? 

You're supposedly a Laker fan from the 80's and don't know that the national media can often be a source of misinformation and hidden agendas? I'm guessing you don't know that because you aren't in fact a long time Laker fan, but a stealth troll ala Nique21 whose whole purpose is bash a basketball team. Just sad.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

adam28z said:


> bingo. they still can't even ADMIT the majority of the blame goes to kobe. are they true laker fans? absolutely not. they're nothing but kobe fanboys.



First it was all the blame, now it's the majority. We're starting to wear you down, huh?


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

madskillz1_99 said:


> the posts in this thread are getting waaaaay too long, i don't have all day to read through this stuff!


I repeat.


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

EHL said:


> I already addressed it, _read_ the previous post.
> 
> Amazing how long time Laker fans (who are 30 or so I assume) have this much trouble with reading comprehension.
> 
> ...


As opposed to a guy whose whole purpose is to defend Kobe at all costs?


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Nique21 said:


> As opposed to a guy whose whole purpose is to defend Kobe at all costs?


Yeah, but you must admit, you ARE pretty pathetic. I don't think I've seen you post about anything other than Kobe bashing, and apparently you have been banned for this before.


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## Nique21 (Jan 12, 2005)

madskillz1_99 said:


> Yeah, but you must admit, you ARE pretty pathetic. I don't think I've seen you post about anything other than Kobe bashing, and apparently you have been banned for this before.


That's funny, because I havent seen you post anything other than Kobe supporting


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Nique21 said:


> That's funny, because I havent seen you post anything other than Kobe supporting


Most of my posts have been about Kobe and the Lakers, but that's because he's my favorite player and they're my favorite team. Pretty normal. You on the other hand.....Do you even have a favorite team? Do you even like the NBA? or do you just hate Kobe? I'm not sure.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Nique21 said:


> As opposed to a guy whose whole purpose is to defend Kobe at all costs?


I post more about things that have to do with the Lakers. I post and talk about other teams besides the Lakers too. You? I'd say 90% of your posts are about the Lakers. Odd behavior for a Rockets fan.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

Lets put it this way, what the Heat will pay for Shaq this summer isn't what the Lakers would have payed for last summer.

Who wants to sign an overweight, and lazy center for 30+ million a year. If the Lakers had signed him thats what they would have gotten, along with the fact that he was unmotivated to win. When the Heat resign him this summer they will be getting a motivated and in shape Shaq.

In my opinion he will go down as one of the greatest centers ever- top 3 probably. But the fact is he could have been the greatest ever, except he lacked 3 simple things, a good attitude towards the game, a good work ethic, and his ego was too big.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

adam28z said:


> bingo. they still can't even ADMIT the majority of the blame goes to kobe. are they true laker fans? absolutely not. they're nothing but kobe fanboys.


who are you to judge who the "true" Laker fans are?
the ones who don't stack to your level of self-rightheusness (sp?)?

Give it a break, will you?
You may not agree with our (or mine) way of thinking, but that doesn't give you the right to look down on us.

Heck, for a guy whose supposed to be a Laker fan you surely sound bitter to all the rest of us, don't you?

And about Laker interanl turmoil: remember Magic and Paul Westhead? And Kareem? What else is new?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Where is the love?

Can't Kobe lovers, Shaq cheerleaders, Buss bashers, and Phil Jackson kiss as$es live together as one, in perfect harmony? We once did, well maybe not in perfect harmony but we had some good times....... :uhoh:

I repeat, WHERE IS THE LOVE? :angel:


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> Who wants to sign an overweight, and lazy center for 30+ million a year.


The Heat paid that much, last year, for an overweight and lazy center.








> If the Lakers had signed him thats what they would have gotten, along with the fact that he was unmotivated to win. When the Heat resign him this summer they will be getting a motivated and in shape Shaq.


I can't agree with you there. If The Lakers did sign Shaq, more than likely, Kobe would have been traded. I don't think either one could have tolerated playing together anymore. That would have been enough motivation for Shaq to get back into shape. Shaq would have been the man in the spotlight with people saying he was the one who forced Kobe out and then would have to prove himself by getting back into Championship contention.







> In my opinion he will go down as one of the greatest centers ever- top 3 probably. But the fact is he could have been the greatest ever, except he lacked 3 simple things, a good attitude towards the game, a good work ethic, and his ego was too big


I have to disagree on Shaq lacking a good attitude towards the game. He has a great attitude when he plays the game. He is having fun out there, but is serious when the occcasion calls for it. Remember, this is just a game. But I will agree on his work ethic. Shaq needs motivation every few years and it looks like Kobe gave it to him. And Shaqs ego is huge, but that is the type of person he is. You either love it or hate it. I think you're probably the latter.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

IV said:


> Where is the love?
> 
> Can't Kobe lovers, Shaq cheerleaders, Buss bashers, and Phil Jackson kiss as$es live together as one, in perfect harmony? We once did, well maybe not in perfect harmony but we had some good times....... :uhoh:
> 
> I repeat, WHERE IS THE LOVE? :angel:


It's just too fun to bash/adore Kobe, Shaq, Buss, Phil, and (you forgot) Mitch. :devil2:


Actually, for me, I believe Kobe is the main reason why The Lakers are in a mess they are in now. Other people have played a part in this tragedy, but they are only the supporting characters. Kobe is the star of this show. :curse:


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> It's just too fun to bash/adore Kobe, Shaq, Buss, Phil, and (you forgot) Mitch. :devil2:
> 
> 
> Actually, for me, I believe Kobe is the main reason why The Lakers are in a mess they are in now. Other people have played a part in this tragedy, but they are only the supporting characters. Kobe is the star of this show. :curse:


Oh foooey! 

:cthread:


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

IV said:


> Oh foooey!
> 
> :cthread:


Oh fooooey? You better watch that poo-poo mouth of yours. :no:


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

I'm sorry. :angel:


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

IV said:


> I'm sorry. :angel:


It's fukk!n' okay. :biggrin:


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

tatahbenitez said:


> I can't agree with you there. If The Lakers did sign Shaq, more than likely, Kobe would have been traded. I don't think either one could have tolerated playing together anymore. That would have been enough motivation for Shaq to get back into shape. Shaq would have been the man in the spotlight with people saying he was the one who forced Kobe out and then would have to prove himself by getting back into Championship contention.


 No that wouldn't have happened, people would have still blamed Kobe, they would either say he is too greedy for not staying with the team, or they would have said its his fault the Lakers broke up.


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## duncan2k5 (Feb 27, 2005)

by the time the lakers get a good group around kobe he will be too old to win another chip. his fault. dug his own grave


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Shaq is hilarious!

So no don't shut up Shaq.

Shaq has some very memorable quotes. The guy has a sense of humor something we shouldnt be bagging on him for.

Anyone remember the Big Deporter ?


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## lebrontosaur (Dec 18, 2004)

Shaq is funny. His proclamations are backed up by a sense of humor and the realization that it's just a game and entertainment to people.

he's also self-depricating, like when he said the toronto police tackled him because he was walking around in downtown toronto in his fur coat and they tackled him because they thought he was sasquatch...

guy's awesome and knows that basketball is entertainment to people.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

lebrontosaur said:


> Shaq is funny. His proclamations are backed up by a sense of humor and the realization that it's just a game and entertainment to people.
> 
> he's also self-depricating, like when he said the toronto police tackled him because he was walking around in downtown toronto in his fur coat and they tackled him because they thought he was sasquatch...
> 
> guy's awesome and knows that basketball is entertainment to people.


That is what I miss about Shaq. He added a lot of levity and lightheartedness when he was with The Lakers. Now, we have a "more open" :clown: Kobe and a team that can't stop someones grandmother from driving down the lane.

I love watching the Lakers score over 100 while their opponents score even more. This is what I was hoping for when Shaq was traded  . Oh yeah, were still over the salary cap and need a PG, C, PF, and a bench before we can make a run for another title.


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