# When it is all said and done, will Kobe be....



## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Here are some videos to help your voting decision

*Jordan Mix*
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<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xLYn6KEYiFM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></OBJECT>


*Jordan Clutch*
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<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zCVEsx6THm4" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></OBJECT>


*Kobe Mix*
<OBJECT height=350 width=425>
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<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GsKgQLNrx1g" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></OBJECT>


*Kobe Clutch*
<OBJECT height=350 width=425>
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<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/2rZEINHH20A" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></OBJECT>


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

...dead?


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> ...dead?


somewhat dead. 
I thought it was best to make it a poll with several choices than simply Kobe vs Jordan. Also this is not about now, It's about when Kobe is done with his career.


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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

Jordan still is and will remain the best player to ever play the game.


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)




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## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

Maybe you ought to add this to your videos of consideration. In my opinion, the best performance by a single player during our era.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OLQl7UJOYUs"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OLQl7UJOYUs" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


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## xray (Feb 21, 2005)

We've circled this tree enough times to eat through the bark, but anyway...

...Kobe is not the "man" that Jordan was on the court; athletic ability aside, it's the way Jordan drove the team with his mentality. Scoring and defense made him one of the all time greats, but who he was on the court set him apart, imo.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

kobe will be the second greatest sg to ever play the game.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Nope, he cannot surpass what Jordan has done. He still has quite a distance to go


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## Real (Aug 3, 2005)

Kobe will be remembered as an immortal individual player who won three championships but couldn't win one on his own.


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## WhoDaBest23 (Apr 16, 2003)

In my eyes, Jordan's the best player to ever play the game. Kobe's the closest thing we've ever seen to Jordan, but he just can't live up to what he's been able to do. He's just a notch below. The mentality, court presence, the defense to me is unmatched. Chances are Kobe will never surpass what Jordan has meant to the sport.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

FAirly or unfairly, i take into account team achievments while regarding player's value. And since it seems highly unlikely Kobe will lead his team to multiple championships, odds are i won't ever view him as close to Jordan.

That being said, and comparing them purely as individual players, they are almost equal.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Real said:


> Kobe will be remembered as an immortal individual player who won three championships but couldn't win one on his own.


What were people saying about Jordan before the Bulls won their first championship?


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> FAirly or unfairly, i take into account team achievments while regarding player's value. And since it seems highly unlikely Kobe will lead his team to multiple championships, odds are i won't ever view him as close to Jordan.
> 
> That being said, and comparing them purely as individual players, they are almost equal.


Wake me up when Kobe averages 37 points a game while shooting 50% from the floor.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

The Truth said:


> Wake me up when Kobe averages 37 points a game while shooting 50% from the floor.


Prepare yourself for a long, long sleep.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

The Truth said:


> Wake me up when Kobe averages 37 points a game while shooting 50% from the floor.


jordan never scored 37 ppg on 50% shooting.

their pace adjusted scoring and their ts%'s were almost identical (jordan '87, kobe '06). and the lakers actually won 5 more games.

really, jordan had better years than his 37 ppg season, so we shouldn't hold that up as a standard.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

kflo said:


> their pace adjusted scoring and their ts%'s were almost identical. and the lakers actually won 5 more games.
> 
> really, jordan had better years than his 37 ppg season, so we shouldn't hold that up as a standard.


what the hell is this TS% stat that people keep tossing around? PER/TS/Efficiency are garbage stats.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

To simplify this. The website below does a good job of comparing the achievements of both players. 

*Kobe Vs Jordan*


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

I think Kobe is a notch below Jordan in every aspect of the game except maybe Perimeter Shooting.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Prolific Scorer said:


> I think Kobe is a notch below Jordan in every aspect of the game except maybe Perimeter Shooting.


Unecessary- HB


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

kflo said:


> jordan never scored 37 ppg on 50% shooting.
> 
> their pace adjusted scoring and their ts%'s were almost identical (jordan '87, kobe '06). and the lakers actually won 5 more games.


Beyond scoring, their rebound, assist, and turnover rates were pretty similar as well. Where Jordan jumps ahead when comparing these particular years is defensively, where he was both a better man defender and was far better at forcing turnovers (2.9 stls, 1.5 blks per40 vs. 1.8 stls and 0.4 blocks per Kobe). Overall a step above in PER as well (28 for Kobe vs. 30 for Jordan), which takes into account pace stuff.



> really, jordan had better years than his 37 ppg season, so we shouldn't hold that up as a standard.


Exactly. Comparing MJ's 37 ppg to Kobe's 35 ppg season is a little misleading as they were at different points in their careers. MJ followed his big time scoring season with better seasons on better teams. Kobe is in his prime and that has been his best season so far. Unless he significantly steps up his level of play for a while, he doesn't really come close to Jordan on all-time lists.



leidout said:


> what the hell is this TS% stat that people keep tossing around? PER/TS/Efficiency are garbage stats.


Oh, I get it. Because you have no idea what it is or how to use it, it's "garbage". Sure.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

> When it is all said and done, will Kobe be....


5th best player of his era behind Duncan, Garnett, O'Neal, Kidd.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Diophantos said:


> Oh, I get it. Because you have no idea what it is or how to use it, it's "garbage". Sure.


Its probably garbage because it's a made-up stat, i've heard of PER & EFF and they're tailor made for certain players. In fact, most of the people i've encountered who cite these kind of stats don't even know the formula for them off the top of their heads. Everyone knows a player cannot be measured simply by stats, the spurs are a perfect example, guys like Horry, Bowen, Ginobili & Duncan are always vastly underrated with these kinds of stats, while players like Nash, Stoudamire & Marion on teams like Phoenix get bloated stats, yet who's better year in & year out?

Until someone explains how these made-up stats definitively mean anything, i'll call 'em garbage.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

When it is all said done, Kobe Bryant will be considered one of the greatest players most of us have ever had the privilege of watching on a basketball court.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

leidout said:


> Its probably garbage because it's a made-up stat...


All stats are "made up". True Shooting Percentage (TS%) is just scoring efficiency divided in half (so that it can be expressed as a percentage). The formula is TS%= (points/FGA + .44FTA) ÷ 2

It's a good measure of how efficiently a player scores.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Kobe will never match Jordan's greatness. He simply isn't as good a WINNER as MJ. It may be a long while before we see anyone who was as skilled, and as good a winner as MJ. Kobe is as skilled, but he isn't as good a team player, or as good a leader as MJ.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

When Kobe played alongside a top 50 player and future HOFer, it resulted in three championships. It just so happened that the player was Shaq.

Since then Kobe hasn't even had so much as a fellow ALL STAR alongside him. Jordan's legacy is during the dynasty eras, the two three peats. During that time he won every single title playing alongside another top 50/HOF player, a few seasons with additional all stars, and a devensive player of the year and one of, if not the greatest rebounders in NBA HISTORY.

With all this said you cannot simply point to wins and say Jordan is the better player. You can't point to championships either, because when both of them had Top 50/HOFers they produced titles. If Pippen was in his prime and on the Lakers now, he would be second to Kobe in the offense, and a great enough offensive player to allow Kobe to do more on defense. Kobe hasn't regressed as a defensive player, he just has to conserve more energy for offense than ever before.

Now if a prime Shaq played with Jordan? Who would seriously think that Shaq would have to tailor his game to suit MJ? It would be the OTHER WAY around. MJ would have to sacrifice his game and tailor it to fit Shaq. A great post player always comes before a great perimeter player. 

Then you have to consider the marketing of both players. Kobe will never surpass MJ, even if he were to win a few titles. Most people here grew up on Mars Blackmon commercials, McDonald commercials, Nike Commercials, the Space Jam movie, I believe I can fly, I want to be like Mike, and of course Air Jordans. There is no player in the history of the game that matched MJ in marketing. Lebron is trying to set himself up but it will never happen. 


So my answer is, when it is all said and done, in relation to MJ, Kobe will be a player who was great, had all the tools to be one of the greatest and used them to the best of his ability, but post-Shaq has not been in a position team wise where it resulted in wins.

Michael Jordan, in many ways was the perfect storm. Came along at the right time, had the right players around him, the right coach.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Tragedy said:


> When Kobe played alongside a top 50 player and future HOFer, it resulted in three championships. It just so happened that the player was Shaq.
> 
> Since then Kobe hasn't even had so much as a fellow ALL STAR alongside him. Jordan's legacy is during the dynasty eras, the two three peats. During that time he won every single title playing alongside another top 50/HOF player, a few seasons with additional all stars, and a devensive player of the year and one of, if not the greatest rebounders in NBA HISTORY.
> 
> ...


Kobe was definitely 2nd banana to Shaq during those championships.

Jordan never followed anyone's coat-tails.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Mateo said:


> 5th best player of his era behind Duncan, Garnett, *O'Neal*, Kidd.


??????????????? Yeah right!


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> ??????????????? Yeah right!


Shaquille, not Jermaine.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

leidout said:


> Kobe was definitely 2nd banana to Shaq during those championships.
> 
> Jordan never followed anyone's coat-tails.


I think he was just trying to point out that if Jordan played with Shaq, he would have played second fiddle to him.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Really the entirety of Jordan's career with Chicago compares favorably to the very best seasons of Kobe's career.All of those seasons are at least comparable to the best years Kobe has had and about half of those seasons are inarguably superior to anything that Kobe has done.

Only modern player who has a real oppurtunity to be compared favorably to Jordan is Lebron.His statistics are comparable to the lower range of Jordan's better seasons and he has the oppurtunity to match him statistically if he improves.Real difficulty for him is that the Cavs are hamstrung by salary rules and poor personell decisions(notably the Hughes contract) so that it's difficult to imagine them becoming the sort of organization that the Bulls were in the 90's.When you compare players to Jordan you have to acknowledge that what separates him from the others is the fact that he won six championships as the acknowledged best player in the league.

I really don't see how you can compare anyone to Jordan until they've established that they are the best player in the game.Tim Duncan is clearly the best player in the game.Before him it was Shaq.Kobe has never even had a real stake in that argument.He's had a couple of season where he was a dominating scorer on a mediocre team.David Thompson did that.So did Alex English.Now he's acknowledged that he's not good enough to make the Lakers a real contender.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Diable said:


> Really the entirety of Jordan's career with Chicago compares favorably to the very best seasons of Kobe's career.All of those seasons are at least comparable to the best years Kobe has had and about half of those seasons are inarguably superior to anything that Kobe has done.
> 
> Only modern player who has a real oppurtunity to be compared favorably to Jordan is Lebron.His statistics are comparable to the lower range of Jordan's better seasons and he has the oppurtunity to match him statistically if he improves.Real difficulty for him is that the Cavs are hamstrung by salary rules and poor personell decisions(notably the Hughes contract) so that it's difficult to imagine them becoming the sort of organization that the Bulls were in the 90's.When you compare players to Jordan you have to acknowledge that what separates him from the others is the fact that he won six championships as the acknowledged best player in the league.
> 
> I really don't see how you can compare anyone to Jordan until they've established that they are the best player in the game.Tim Duncan is clearly the best player in the game.Before him it was Shaq.Kobe has never even had a real stake in that argument.He's had a couple of season where he was a dominating scorer on a mediocre team.David Thompson did that.So did Alex English.Now he's acknowledged that he's not good enough to make the Lakers a real contender.


Couldn't have put it any better. agree 100%


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## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

Kobe is a great player but Jordan was superior to him in every way.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Except <strike>b*t**ing</strike> *No masking.*


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Duncan never held that mantle consistently like MJ. Shaq was dominating the league but it was for a inconsistent and short period of time. Kevin Garnett, Allen Iverson and Steve Nash were considered the most valuable at one point of their careers and each even won an MVP award, but winning the coveted award is not synonymous with being the best. Truthfully, No one can ever reach the length of greatness MJ had in his monumental career.




If we were to just compare Kobe among his peers, He has put up similar numbers to those players mentioned above. He has the hardware, and has proven that he was a valuable and a very important piece of a dynasty. If Shaq deserved credit, Kobe equally deserves the same. He has broken records and has amazed millions of basketball fans, with his amazing basketball prowess time after time 


When all is said and done..


Kobe is going to be one of the most talented, most competetive player to ever play on the harwood.


He was simply one of the best players who never got the credit he deserves due to poor and biased media voting and perception.


Whether he will be the greatest or not, does it really matter? We're all witnesses to one of the greatest spectacle in the history of the league. We should all just watch and enjoy it while we can fellas.


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## Nate505 (Aug 22, 2003)

Videos won't help my decision. Kobe leading teams to championships will. He was a key role on that Lakers dynasty, but honestly, that was Shaq's team.

Jordan was the ultimate cog on two three peat teams. 

I don't think he's anywhere close to Jordan.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

leidout said:


> Kobe was definitely 2nd banana to Shaq during those championships.
> 
> Jordan never followed anyone's coat-tails.


My point is that Jordan would have been second fiddle to Shaq. I'll take it a step further, EVERY PERIMETER player in NBA history would have been second banana to Shaq.


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## magohaydz (Dec 21, 2005)

Real said:


> Kobe will be remembered as an immortal individual player who won three championships but couldn't win one on his own.


You're kidding yourself if you think Jordan would have won anything close to 6 rings without Scottie. Its been proven time and time again...it takes 2 all-stars to win a ring.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

I may be wrong (but not really cause it never happened), but I still couldn't see Jordan playing 2nd fiddle to anyone, Wilt, Hakeem, or Shaq.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

I would vote to somewhere between 'not close' and 'close'...he's one of the best ever to step on the floor, but is he Jordan? No.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Tragedy said:


> My point is that Jordan would have been second fiddle to Shaq. I'll take it a step further, EVERY PERIMETER player in NBA history would have been second banana to Shaq.


Dont you get it Jordan did it without a shaq and Duncan did it without a Kobe thats what makes them so great! Kobe could not even get out of the 1st round alone.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> That being said, and comparing them purely as individual players, they are almost equal.


I'd love to see how you'd argue that with anything but *complete* subjectivism.

There's _at least_ a 10-15% difference between prime Jordan and Kobe in terms of on-the-court impact. The numbers say that, the awards and accolades say that, and MVP/DPOY voting says that. All Kobe fans have are their own purple-and-gold-tinged opinions.



> Michael Jordan, in many ways was the perfect storm. Came along at the right time, had the right players around him, the right coach.


And they were fortunate enough to have Michael freaking Jordan. That's what I think gets lost in comments like these. Equal teams, I'd wager that Jordan's team beats Kobe's team 8 times out of 10 in a 7-game series.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jordan23Forever said:


> I'd love to see how you'd argue that with anything but *complete* subjectivism.
> 
> There's _at least_ a 10-15% difference between prime Jordan and Kobe in terms of on-the-court impact. The numbers say that, the awards and accolades say that, and MVP/DPOY voting says that. All Kobe fans have are their own purple-and-gold-tinged opinions.


First of all: i am NOT a Kobe Bryant fan.
That being said:
You don't know Young Jordan. Yeah, you've never seen him play. Score in bunches, provide miriads of highlight reels, and getting swept by Larry Bird.
You don't know him.
All you know about Jordan is the championship contender Jordan. When he had a TEAM around him. When Scottie Pippen was coming into is own. When Horace Grant was developing. That's all mirror and smokes for you.
All you remember is Jordan playing with the best SF at the time, a PF who would o what was demanded (Grant/Rodman) and a bunch of role players TAYLOR-MADE for Jordan.
Kobe has NONE of that.
The guy whith the 40-point streak, the guy with the 81 point game, has NOT the supporting cast Jordan had.
Therefore, we can't really judge achievments. 
Give Kobe the new Pippen (a sane Artest?) and a new Grant/Rodman(an healthy Kenyon Martin?) for six or seven years and let's see how he does...

I've watched Jordan since when he was a loser till he carried his team to 2 threepeats. And i find Kobe to be close to him.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Dont you get it Jordan did it without a shaq and Duncan did it without a Kobe thats what makes them so great! Kobe could not even get out of the 1st round alone.


No! Don't YOU get it?


Jordan NEVER did it without a top 50 ALL TIME GREAT and HOFer. He never did it with less than one all star. So far Jordan and Kobe have that same distinction.

As for Duncan, yea he never had a Kobe, he does have a great team around him. Also it is much easier to build around him than Kobe.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Prolific Scorer said:


> I may be wrong (but not really cause it never happened), but I still couldn't see Jordan playing 2nd fiddle to anyone, Wilt, Hakeem, or Shaq.


You definitely are wrong. We seen what Jordan can do, because he has had that opportunity. But if Jordan and Shaq were to join a team at the same time, both in their primes, any coach would start the offense inside. Jordan would average less points than he did as the number 1 option, because the offense would be run through the big man. It's just a fact of the game. 

People deify Jordan as if he was some god in the NBA. Give the lakers no cap and see what they can do.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

All I know is, MJ retired the first time and the Bulls barely skipped a beat, and almost went on to the Eastern Conference Finals in 94.

When you lose the greatest player of all time, isn't your team supposed to sink like a rock?


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Tragedy said:


> No! Don't YOU get it?
> 
> 
> Jordan NEVER did it without a top 50 ALL TIME GREAT and HOFer. He never did it with less than one all star. So far Jordan and Kobe have that same distinction.
> ...


No you really really dont get it and I'm tired of explaining it to you.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Dont you get it Jordan did it without a shaq and Duncan did it without a Kobe thats what makes them so great! Kobe could not even get out of the 1st round alone.


but what did jordan do "alone"?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

The poll is missing an "Arrested in a men's room in Minneapolis Airport" option.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

kflo said:


> but what did jordan do "alone"?


Jordan won a title without a big man but rather a wing that nicely compliments him. (I'm not saying Pipen wasnt an all-time great.) But he didnt have that dominant C or PF inside. every championship team has that. If you put Lebron and Kobe on the same team today they would not win the title.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Jordan won a title without a big man but rather a wing that nicely compliments him. (I'm not saying Pipen wasnt an all-time great.) But he didnt have that dominant C or PF inside. every championship team has that. If you put Lebron and Kobe on the same team today they would not win the title.


he had dominant rebounding, and a defense that ranked 6th in the league without him in '94 (and 2nd in '95).

dominant rebounding and defense, another top 30 ALL-TIME player, another all-star - it's really not a bad combo. 

isiah didn't have a dominant c or pf. heck, the '88 lakers certainly didn't either. or the '04 pistons.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> First of all: i am NOT a Kobe Bryant fan.
> That being said:
> You don't know Young Jordan. Yeah, you've never seen him play.


Wow, telling me what I have and haven't seen, huh? Impressive, Kreskin.



> Score in bunches, provide miriads of highlight reels, and getting swept by Larry Bird.
> You don't know him.


Sure I do -- the guy who finished first or second in EFF and PER every season after 1986 before he won a championship, something that Kobe's never done *once*, never mind 12+ times like Jordan; the guy who won a DPOY and finished second in DPOY voting in 1990, before he won any rings; the guy who became the first player in history to record 200+ steals/100+ steals in the same season...and he did it twice, in consecutive seasons; the guy who had *legendary* playoff numbers and performances (63 pts, back-to-back 50's, averaging 45+ for a series, 35/7/8 and 37/7/7 for entire postseasons etc.); the guy who led the league in steals twice before winning a ring; the guy who led the league in win shares by a LARGE margin each season from '87-'90, before he won a ring; the guy who put 49 and 63 back-to-back on the best defensive team in the league and a first-team defender; the guy who, with his second best player averaging 13/7/4/46% in the playoffs (and only 12/6/4/43% vs.Detroit) got his team to game 6 of the Conference Finals, and game 7 a year later; the guy who, by sheer force of will, beat a Cavs team that was vastly more talented, had swept the season series 4-0, and were predicted by all analysts to win the series; the guy who had an entire defensive scheme named after him; the guy who finished top 3 in MVP voting in every full season after he broke his foot before he won his first ring; the guy who, prior to his first ring, had won 3 Sporting News MVP's, which are voted on by coaches, players, and GM's (Kobe has never won one, for reference); the guy who commentators in playoff games were calling the best ever as early as 1990.


Sp pre-championship Jordan? Yeah, I'm pretty sure I know that guy. What's Kobe done again? Oooh, ooh, I know: 81 points, 62 in 3 etc. etc. Yawn.



> All you know about Jordan is the championship contender Jordan. When he had a TEAM around him. When Scottie Pippen was coming into is own. When Horace Grant was developing. That's all mirror and smokes for you.


No, it's not. No one is suggesting that Kobe is expected to win a ring with what he has around him now. But Jordan was clearly a superior player when he had a bad team, when he had a good team, and when he had a great team. Nothing changes that. That's what you're not understanding.



> All you remember is Jordan playing with the best SF at the time, a PF who would o what was demanded (Grant/Rodman) and a bunch of role players TAYLOR-MADE for Jordan.
> Kobe has NONE of that.


"Taylor-made" (sic), huh? I guess Jordan just punched in his specifications into the production line and out popped Grant and Pippen. News flash: neither of those players, particularly Pippen, would have developed into the players they were without Jordan's presence and tutelage. This is what Jordan routinely got out of Pippen and Grant in big games prior to 1991:

http://motorcitybadboys.com/box90eastconffinalsgm7.html



> The guy whith the 40-point streak, the guy with the 81 point game, has NOT the supporting cast Jordan had.
> Therefore, we can't really judge achievments.


No, we can't really judge *rings*, because that's what is team-dependent. We can judge MVP's and MVP finishes, TSN MVP's, production (absolute and relative to peers), DPOY votes, league consensus etc. 



> Give Kobe the new Pippen (a sane Artest?) and a new Grant/Rodman(an healthy Kenyon Martin?) for six or seven years and let's see how he does...


Jordan would have made Odom into an insane baller by now. Kobe can't, because he's not Jordan. All this talk about "giving" Kobe this and that -- let Kobe go out and help *make* his teammates better. You can't turn crud into gold, so no one is expecting Kobe to turn Smush into a sharpshooter like Paxson, but he has his own strengths: tremendous athleticism, great defense when he applies himself, and a great slashing game (all things that Paxson didn't have). Why can't Kobe play to the strengths of his teammates? Why can't he enhance their games and complement them?



> I've watched Jordan since when he was a loser till he carried his team to 2 threepeats. And i find Kobe to be close to him.


Fact: if Kobe wasn't on the Lakers, you'd never be saying this. Or maybe you would, because you're still bitter that Jordan's Bulls waxed LA's a$$es in the Finals and stole their shine for an entire decade, making LA irrelevant; so you just want to downplay Jordan.

There is a pretty clear difference in *impact on games* between Kobe and Jordan. Pretty big. I'd say you'd have to be blind not to see it, but that's just me -- after all, you're the only one who watched pre-championship Jordan. :lol:


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

did i just read that smush plays great defense when he applies himself?


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## magohaydz (Dec 21, 2005)

Heres a quote that sums the whole thing about jordan up...

Chuck Daly - "He's embarrassing the league, he's just that good"


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

kflo said:


> did i just read that smush plays great defense when he applies himself?


You sure did. Smush won/saved a couple of games for them vs. Phoenix last year and won several games for them with his pressure defense in the 4th quarter this season. Sorry if you missed those.

If his energy were channelled and he were taught by a good defender (oh, let's say Kobe, for instance) how to play more fundamental D, he'd be a very good defender.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I have a really hard time grasping why Pippen and Shaq play such a vital role in this argument.On the one hand Pippen was one of the finest complementary players in the history of the game.He did all the things a really good team needs to have done.On the other hand Shaq would have a legitimate argument as the greatest of all time if he had been able to sustain the level he held during the Lakers title run.

Kobe never won a damned thing with Shaq and everyone here knows that.Shaq wasn't just the best player on that team he was the best player in the league and he was better than Kobe could ever dream of being.Shaq won titles with Kobe as a complementary player and Jordan won titles with Pippen as a complementary player.If you guys are going to make stupid arguments you can try telling us if Kobe is as good as Pippen.That has merit.He sure as hell never makes it when you compare him on what Pippen did best,helping his team win.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Diable said:


> I have a really hard time grasping why Pippen and Shaq play such a vital role in this argument.On the one hand Pippen was one of the finest complementary players in the history of the game.He did all the things a really good team needs to have done.On the other hand Shaq would have a legitimate argument as the greatest of all time if he had been able to sustain the level he held during the Lakers title run.
> 
> Kobe never won a damned thing with Shaq and everyone here knows that.Shaq wasn't just the best player on that team he was the best player in the league and he was better than Kobe could ever dream of being.Shaq won titles with Kobe as a complementary player and Jordan won titles with Pippen as a complementary player.If you guys are going to make stupid arguments you can try telling us if Kobe is as good as Pippen.That has merit.He sure as hell never makes it when you compare him on what Pippen did best,helping his team win.


Good post.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

LOL at the # of votes that say not even close to Jordan is 23. Kind of symbolic maybe?


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

*Kobe Bryant vs. Michael Jordan*

How come a player who is not even the best player in his generation (Kobe Bryant) is compared constantly with someone who is considered the greatest player ever in the NBA (Michael Jordan)? Just that premise alone makes this a silly comparison.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

When all is said and done, Kobe will NOT be a Bull.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Wow, telling me what I have and haven't seen, huh? Impressive, Kreskin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice to see you can use basketball-reference.com quite adequately. Still, you missed the link to Kobe Bryant's profile, when it says something like:
- 5 times 1st team All-Nba (2 times 2nd team; 2 times 3rd team)
- 4 times 1st team all-defense (2 times 2nd team; 1 time 3rd team)
Is it Yawn-merited? Well, then maybe i was wrong and it wasn't Jordan you weren't watching. It's Kobe.

GAme-wise, they are comparable. That's my point. Both great offensive (i give the slight edge to Kobe) and defensive players (Jordan with the clear edge). Both comparable passers and rebounders. 



> No, it's not. No one is suggesting that Kobe is expected to win a ring with what he has around him now. But Jordan was clearly a superior player when he had a bad team, when he had a good team, and when he had a great team. Nothing changes that. That's what you're not understanding.


This is highly subjective. The thing you asked not to be brought to the table.



> "Taylor-made" (sic), huh? I guess Jordan just punched in his specifications into the production line and out popped Grant and Pippen.


Jordan had a good defender, distributer, rebounder and scorer in Pippen. A good spot up jumpers in Hodges and Paxson. A good defender, rebounder in Grant, who could live by with putbacks, short jumpers and having no offensive play called to him. A good defender who could knock the open jumper with consistency in Cartwright.
A whole world of difference to what Kobe has to work with.
Obviously, the forging of the team was not Jordan's doing, but Krause's. And that's the exact thing Laker fans are fumed about Mitch: he just can't seem to get Kobe the suitable complementary player for his game.



> News flash: neither of those players, particularly Pippen, would have developed into the players they were without Jordan's presence and tutelage. This is what Jordan routinely got out of Pippen and Grant in big games prior to 1991:
> 
> http://motorcitybadboys.com/box90eastconffinalsgm7.html


I understand having to guard Jordan in training would help Pippen's defene. But i really don't understand what he did for his passing and offense. Or help Horace Grant in post-defending, rebounding and sticking the jumper...



> No, we can't really judge *rings*, because that's what is team-dependent. We can judge MVP's and MVP finishes, TSN MVP's, production (absolute and relative to peers), DPOY votes, league consensus etc.


Sure, but in comparable scenarios. Kobe will never get serious MVP consideration by voyers playing with mediocre teams. That's why he is not getting any. Funny thing, he was getting more votes for MVP than Shaq the last couple of years they played together. Shaq.
MVP is not a purely individual award. It factors in team success.
And the league consensus, the last couple of years, is that Kobe is the best basketball player in the world, no? 



> Jordan would have made Odom into an insane baller by now. Kobe can't, because he's not Jordan.


This is a terrible statement. Odom will never develop into an "insane baller" because he just doesn't have the drive to be it. It's easy to motivate driven players, like Pippen and Grant, than guys with little basketball IQ and little passion.



> All this talk about "giving" Kobe this and that -- let Kobe go out and help *make* his teammates better. You can't turn crud into gold, so no one is expecting Kobe to turn Smush into a sharpshooter like Paxson, but he has his own strengths: tremendous athleticism, great defense when he applies himself, and a great slashing game (all things that Paxson didn't have). Why can't Kobe play to the strengths of his teammates? Why can't he enhance their games and complement them?


Because their teammates are either scrubs or have a scrub mentality. There's noone on the team who can be a consistent offensive threat. Yeah, there's talent (Odom) and potential (Kwame and Bynum), but those players just ain't cutting it. How successfull was Jordan with the 1987-88 Bull's roster? Is it only coincidence that (besides Paxson) noone on that roster was around when he won his firt championship? 




> Fact: if Kobe wasn't on the Lakers, you'd never be saying this.


Debatable, because *fact*is that Kobe is the best perimeter player to come around since Jordan. And, eventhough i am a long-time Laker fan, i can judge talent impartially.



> Or maybe you would, because you're still bitter that Jordan's Bulls waxed LA's a$$es in the Finals and stole their shine for an entire decade, making LA irrelevant; so you just want to downplay Jordan.


Hehe. You are talking about one of the seasons i endear (sp?) the most as a Laker fan. The fact that Magic could carry that team to the Finals (and over Portland) is a great memory.
About franchises: the Lakers have been good since the start of the NBA. Finalists in every decade the game was played. Chicago had 10 years when the franchise mattered. 



> There is a pretty clear difference in *impact on games* between Kobe and Jordan. Pretty big. I'd say you'd have to be blind not to see it, but that's just me -- after all, you're the only one who watched pre-championship Jordan. :lol:


I am not the only one who watched Jordan back in the day, there's plenty more in this Forum. But you haven't. If you want to debate Jordan and Kobe's first step/ballhandling/jumper/post moves/rebounding/help defense/offensive creativity/whatever, we can do it. But if you are going by numbers, awards and accolades in different scenarios, no deal.

Game-wise, they are almost identical.
What makes Jordan a better player (and considering ONLY personal habilities) is his higher BBall IQ (later developed) and his superior defense.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Diable said:


> I have a really hard time grasping why Pippen and Shaq play such a vital role in this argument.On the one hand Pippen was one of the finest complementary players in the history of the game.He did all the things a really good team needs to have done.On the other hand Shaq would have a legitimate argument as the greatest of all time if he had been able to sustain the level he held during the Lakers title run.
> 
> Kobe never won a damned thing with Shaq and everyone here knows that.Shaq wasn't just the best player on that team he was the best player in the league and he was better than Kobe could ever dream of being.Shaq won titles with Kobe as a complementary player and Jordan won titles with Pippen as a complementary player.If you guys are going to make stupid arguments you can try telling us if Kobe is as good as Pippen.That has merit.He sure as hell never makes it when you compare him on what Pippen did best,helping his team win.


Well said, and exactly what I was thinking. If you want to talk about 'Kobe's' titles, then you compare him to Pippen. That's what he was, the compliment. If you want to compare Jordan's impact to someone more recent, compare his impact to TD and prime Shaq. Then you can have a legitmate argument.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> *Well said, and exactly what I was thinking. If you want to talk about 'Kobe's' titles, then you compare him to Pippen. That's what he was, the compliment.* If you want to compare Jordan's impact to someone more recent, compare his impact to TD and prime Shaq. Then you can have a legitmate argument.


That's not quite true.
Eventhough Kobe was the second best player in the championship Lakers, he was hardly merely a "compliment". Kobe was often the Laker's first offensive option in the 4th quarter, and he had to share a big part of the offensive assignments...

Kobe's post-season stats in championship years:
99-00: 21-4-4;
00-01: 29-7-6;
01-02: 26-5-4.

Asides from the first championship run, Kobe's job on the Shaq-Lakers was hardly the "facilitator" job Pippen had on the championship Bulls. Kobe was asked to dominate the game from time to time. Which he did. Everybody familiar with the Lakers game plan will say that Shaq was to go all out on the first 3 quarters and Kobe was to close the game. That is different from what Pippen did.

And, for the record, Kobe > Pippen.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> That's not quite true.
> Eventhough Kobe was the second best player in the championship Lakers, he was hardly merely a "compliment". Kobe was often the Laker's first offensive option in the 4th quarter, and he had to share a big part of the offensive assignments...
> 
> Kobe's post-season stats in championship years:
> ...


Stats, stats, stats, stats... please spare me. Its not about numbers. Its about how the team functioned. And of course Kobe didn't have the same role as Pippen did. Shaq didn't have the same roll as MJ did. They were different teams and different players. The point is that Kobe was the sidekick. Shaq was the foundation, and one of the greatest foundations ever in his prime. It was patently obvious to anyone who wasn't a Kobe homer, a 12 year old, or a ****ing idiot that Shaq was the MJ level performer, and Kobe was the Pippen level performer. To think that Kobe was anywhere near Shaq's level is absurd, and an insult to just how dominant prime Shaq was. Prime Shaq cut through Tim Duncan and David Robinson like they were Nenad Krstic and Jason Collins. Kobe was along for the ride, just like Pippen. Wo/ Shaq, we'd be comparing Kobe to Dominique Wilkins. That's a much more accurate comparison.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Stats, stats, stats, stats... please spare me. Its not about numbers. Its about how the team functioned. And of course Kobe didn't have the same role as Pippen did. Shaq didn't have the same roll as MJ did. They were different teams and different players. The point is that Kobe was the sidekick. Shaq was the foundation, and one of the greatest foundations ever in his prime. It was patently obvious to anyone who wasn't a Kobe homer, a 12 year old, or a ****ing idiot that Shaq was the MJ level performer, and Kobe was the Pippen level performer. To think that Kobe was anywhere near Shaq's level is absurd, and an insult to just how dominant prime Shaq was. Prime Shaq cut through Tim Duncan and David Robinson like they were Nenad Krstic and Jason Collins. Kobe was along for the ride, just like Pippen. Wo/ Shaq, we'd be comparing Kobe to Dominique Wilkins. That's a much more accurate comparison.


Always full of anger, SeaNet... That's what i love about you...

Where have i said that Kobe WASN'T the sidekick? Off course he was. And, yes, he was nowhere near Shaq's level of domination (without searching, i'd say that Shaq has, at least, 3 or 4 20-20 games in Nba Finals).

My point was that one can't really compare Kobe to Pippen considering their "sidekick roles" because Kobe was asked to do more (much more) on the offensive end than Pippen. Let's say Pippen was THE sidekick and Kobe was a sidekick*+*...


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Oh, to further ilustrate my point, stats from the Lakers 2000-2001 post season (15-1):
Game 1: Shaq 24-20-1; Kobe 28-6-7;
2: Shaq 32-12-5; Kobe 25-3-7;
3: Shaq: 25-15-2; Kobe 22-4-9;
4: Shaq 44-21-4; Kobe 29-4-5;
5: Shaq 43-20-2; Kobe 27-9-5;
6: Shaq 21-18-1; Kobe 35-7-4;
7: Shaq 25-10-2; Kobe 48-16-3;
8: Shaq 28-11-2; Kobe 45-10-3;
9: Shaq 19-14-4; Kobe 28-7-6;
10: Shaq 35-17-3; Kobe 36-9-8;
11: Shaq 26-10-1; Kobe 24-2-11;
12: Shaq 44-20-5; Kobe 15-3-5;
13: Shaq 18-20-9; Kobe 31-8-9;
14: Shaq 30-12-3; Kobe 32-6-3;
15: Shaq 34-14-5; Kobe 19-10-9;
16: Shaq 29-13-2; Kobe 26-12-6.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

All shaq needs is another all-star, a decent team, anda coach and he'll bring you a championship. He almost did it right when he came to the league with Orlando. He did it with Kobe. Then he did it with Wade. Shaq is one of the best players ever. Kobe lived off Shaq. Kobe is not Jordan level. you know how much harder it was to score back then. Guys could bump into you the game was much more physical. Now the refs will call a fould like that. Kobe is definetly not a better scorer than MJ. The only player that can potentially be Jordan is Lebron. He dominated the East and hes only what 22. When he becomes 30 we'll see.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> All shaq needs is another all-star, a decent team, anda coach and he'll bring you a championship. He almost did it right when he came to the league with Orlando. He did it with Kobe. Then he did it with Wade. Shaq is one of the best players ever. Kobe lived off Shaq. Kobe is not Jordan level. you know how much harder it was to score back then. Guys could bump into you the game was much more physical. Now the refs will call a fould like that. Kobe is definetly not a better scorer than MJ. *The only player that can potentially be Jordan is Lebron. He dominated the East and hes only what 22. When he becomes 30 we'll see*.


As far as Lebron James goes, the "age excuse" is becoming of lesser and lesser meaning...


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Kobe isn't as good as Jordan was and won't ever be, and it's primarily because he just isn't as athletic and explosive as Jordan was, and didn't have the huge hands. Kobe has the same competitive streak that causes him to snap at his teammates at times just like Jordan did on several occasions, the same fearlessness, the same ego and the same understanding for the details of the game that have Phil Jackson's fingerprints all over them. Kobe is actually more skilled and has more basketball talent than Jordan did, but athleticism is just a huge part of NBA basketball and for that reason this comparison isn't that close. Kobe is the closest perimeter player to Jordan, though. With the perfect hall of fame supporting cast that Jordan had, he would lead his team to titles too (maybe not 6, but atleast a couple).


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Always full of anger, SeaNet... That's what i love about you...
> 
> Where have i said that Kobe WASN'T the sidekick? Off course he was. And, yes, he was nowhere near Shaq's level of domination (without searching, i'd say that Shaq has, at least, 3 or 4 20-20 games in Nba Finals).
> 
> My point was that one can't really compare Kobe to Pippen considering their "sidekick roles" because Kobe was asked to do more (much more) on the offensive end than Pippen. Let's say Pippen was THE sidekick and Kobe was a sidekick*+*...


While I disagree... fair enough.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Stats, stats, stats, stats... please spare me. Its not about numbers. Its about how the team functioned. And of course Kobe didn't have the same role as Pippen did. Shaq didn't have the same roll as MJ did. They were different teams and different players. The point is that Kobe was the sidekick. Shaq was the foundation, and one of the greatest foundations ever in his prime. It was patently obvious to anyone who wasn't a Kobe homer, a 12 year old, or a ****ing idiot that Shaq was the MJ level performer, and Kobe was the Pippen level performer. To think that Kobe was anywhere near Shaq's level is absurd, and an insult to just how dominant prime Shaq was. Prime Shaq cut through Tim Duncan and David Robinson like they were Nenad Krstic and Jason Collins. Kobe was along for the ride, just like Pippen. Wo/ Shaq, we'd be comparing Kobe to Dominique Wilkins. That's a much more accurate comparison.


All you saw was the stats? You must not have read his post as he clearly stated how the team functioned. 

Kobe was the second fiddle to Shaq, that is irrefutable, but his relation to Shaq is UNLIKE Pippen's relation to Jordan.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I'd take a prime Pippen over Kobe.Of course I just want to win.I'm not interested in reciting stats.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Diable said:


> I'd take a prime Pippen over Kobe.Of course I just want to win.I'm not interested in reciting stats.


This is my position as well.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Diable said:


> I'd take a prime Pippen over Kobe.Of course I just want to win.I'm not interested in reciting stats.


If i was fielding a team against yours, i would be extremely happy you opted for Pippen over Kobe...


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Pippen has led a team to the conference finals I believe.As far as I am concerned Pippen is a straight up better team player...And I don't give a damn about playing one on one in someone's backyard.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> If i was fielding a team against yours, i would be extremely happy you opted for Pippen over Kobe...


 I wouldn't. Pippen is a more talented and sober version of Odom.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Diable said:


> Pippen has led a team to the conference finals I believe.As far as I am concerned Pippen is a straight up better team player...And I don't give a damn about playing one on one in someone's backyard.


I love it when people bring the fact that Pippen carried the Chicago Bulls to the Conference Finals with Pete Myers replacing Michael Jordan. It stresses the fact that Jordan wasn't all that.

That being said, i agree that Scottie Pippen is the better team player. And i can even explain why: Pippen hadn't the hability to be a dominat player. Nor was he a dmonant scorer, nor rebounder, nor passer. That's why he played to his potentialities: defense, passing, getting players involved, scoring. Pippen's game was greatly suited to be a great second-fiddle player. A "glue guy". This kind of player are more often than not good "team players". 

Kobe's game is much mmore than that. Right know, he is struggling with the fact that he is the sole offensive threat on the team while also being the better defender and clutch player. Kobe doesn't have a Scottie Pippen kind of player to rely on. So he takes things into his own hands. For better or worse. Which makes people (myself included) think he can hardly play the team game.

I ackowledge all that.

But Kobe is the better player of them both. I don't think it's easily debatable.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I still want to win...Not whine


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Which Jordan are we talking about?

I'd actually say Kobe is pretty much the equal of the Jordan of the second threepeat where Jordan lost some of that crazy athleticism.
There PER/TS% are around the same. Defense probably equivocal. Pippen was the better defender by the second threepeat.

Since Kobe is in his prime I just don't see Kobe however matching the Jordan pre-retirement as Kobe's past two years, although absolutely terrific HOF quality seasons, don't match the almost mindboggingly "Wilt-light" seasons of Jordan
A consistent PER over 30 with a ridiculous TS% over .600. And it's simply not about era: a guy scoring that many points and also being in top 25 in TS% (including one where he finished 8th in the league while scoring 32 ppg) is crazy particularly coming from the guard position. Just to put that in perspective Kobe was 45th in TS% last year. Considering that both are reknowned for mainly scoring and then secondarily defense, the efficiency factor is striking when comparing the two


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Diable said:


> I still want to win...Not whine


Sure...
And i guess you would probably take Jason Kidd over Oscar Robertson, right?


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Pioneer10 said:


> Which Jordan are we talking about?
> 
> I'd actually say Kobe is pretty much the equal of the Jordan of the second threepeat where Jordan lost some of that crazy athleticism.
> There PER/TS% are around the same. Defense probably *equivocal*. Pippen was the better defender by the second threepeat.
> ...


*Equivocal. adj. 1 a* *:* subject to two or more interpretations and usually used to mislead or confuse

Jordan won DPOY. His was reknown for BOTH amazing defense and offense. Comparing a 33year old Jordan to a 28 year old Kobe is validating their level of greatness? Jordan's CAREER PER is 27.9. Kobe's HIGHEST PER is 28 and has an career PER of 23.5. I hate TS%, but let's use it since you love it, 56.9% for Jordan and 55.5% for Kobe. This seems similar, but then look at their FG% and see that Kobe shoots a lot more contested shots at a much lower percentage. 49.7% vs. 45.3%. That is a difference between your team winning and losing. Jordan managed to work his way to open/higher percentage shots


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

IceMan23and3 said:


> *Equivocal. adj. 1 a* *:* subject to two or more interpretations and usually used to mislead or confuse
> 
> Jordan won DPOY. His was reknown for BOTH amazing defense and offense. Comparing a 33year old Jordan to a 28 year old Kobe is validating their level of greatness? Jordan's CAREER PER is 27.9. Kobe's HIGHEST PER is 28 and has an career PER of 23.5. I hate TS%, but let's use it since you love it, 56.9% for Jordan and 55.5% for Kobe. This seems similar, but then look at their FG% and see that Kobe shoots a lot more contested shots at a much lower percentage. 49.7% vs. 45.3%. That is a difference between your team winning and losing. Jordan managed to work his way to open/higher percentage shots


 Ummm who are arguing with? Read my post carefully again and you'll note that I said Jordan was a step above Kobe. I stated that Kobe is at the same level of Jordan post retirement (in the same paragraph where I said the defense of post retirement Jordan was no different then Kobe) and since he's in his prime he probably isn't going to get better. Both Kobe and post-retirement Jordan don't compare with the younger Jordan


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

the bulls without jordan made it to the 2nd round, not the ecf, beating an injury depleted cavs team in the 1st round.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

*C'mon, Kobe Bryant is better than Scottie Pippen*



Diable said:


> Pippen has led a team to the conference finals I believe.As far as I am concerned Pippen is a straight up better team player...And I don't give a damn about playing one on one in someone's backyard.


I'm not exactly in the Kobe Bryant Fan Club, but there is no way in hell I would take Scottie Pippen over him. Pippen was a good to All-Star-caliber player, while Bryant is typically anywhere from perennial all-star to one of the five best players in the league.

Also, some facts need to be considered:

*1.) Pippen never "led" a team to the conference finals.* The 1993-94 Bulls (without Michael Jordan) lost in the Eastern Conference semifinals vs. the New York Knicks. That was the series where Pippen refused to enter the final seconds of Game 4 because coach Phil Jackson ran a play for Pippen as a decoy. In 1999-2000, Pippen was a complementary player for the Portland team that lost that huge third-quarter lead in Game 7 of the Western Conference finals -- a game where Pippen was a non-factor and when Portland needed him to stave off the Lakers' huge rally he fouled out.

*2.) Pippen was a player who wanted the superstar accolades of players like Bryant and Jordan, however he never wanted the accountability.* I named two previous examples; in particular, Portland brought in Pippen to be a leader and (as ESPN analyst and former Blazer teammate Greg Anthony loves to stick into Pippen's side) he never showed any leadership. That also was shown in his one season in Houston, where he forced a trade to Portland after attacking Charles Barkley in the media. 

*3.) Pippen's biggest fallcy is that he tended to come up short in big games, both in performance and mentally.* It was apparent even in Chicago, but because he had the ultimate release valve in Jordan those skeletons were excused in light of the Bulls' six titles. But it really was obvious in Jordan's first retirement and post-Bulls stops in Houston and Portland that Pippen really couldn't take on that responsibility. At least Bryant wants the opportunity to be the man and more often than Pippen he comes through.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Starting a team from scratch I would definitely want Kobe who is a far better scorer while still being a good defender and all around player but I think the choice btw Pippen/Kobe particularly since they really are different players who play different positions really depends on who else is on the team. If I had another superstar like Lebron who can facilitate I'd take Kobe, if I had Melo who is more of a pure finisher I would probably go with Pippen


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

*Kobe Bryant vs. Scottie Pippen*



Pioneer10 said:


> Starting a team from scratch I would definitely want Kobe who is a far better scorer while still being a good defender and all around player but I think the choice btw Pippen/Kobe particularly since they really are different players who play different positions really depends on who else is on the team. If I had another superstar like Lebron who can facilitate I'd take Kobe, if I had Melo who is more of a pure finisher I would probably go with Pippen


Special circumstances may dictate your choice more than usual in regards to personnel, but in this case we're choosing in the context of a vacuum.

The closest analogous player to Scottie Pippen today is Shawn Marion (save that Pippen is a better ball-handler and Marion is a better rebounder), and while people will agree that Marion is an All-Star-caliber player he is at least one level behind Kobe Bryant. Quite frankly, I don't see Pippen being a better player than Marion (I will say they are equal).


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: Kobe Bryant vs. Scottie Pippen*



Najee said:


> Special circumstances may dictate your choice more than usual in regards to personnel, but in this case we're choosing in the context of a vacuum.
> 
> The closest analogous player to Scottie Pippen today is Shawn Marion (save that Pippen is a better ball-handler and Marion is a better rebounder), and while people will agree that Marion is an All-Star-caliber player he is at least one level behind Kobe Bryant. Quite frankly, I don't see Pippen being a better player than Marion (I will say they are equal).


 While it's easy to say Marion rebounding equals out Pippens ballhandling. It's important to note that not only is Pippen a better ballhandler but he was also a much better passer then Pippen. While he's also a good defender - he's a significant step below Pippen - Marion's never even made an all defensive team (Marion no 1st or second teams, Pippen - 10 All NBA defense/ 8 of them first team all defense). The only things they have in common is a relatively similar PER numbers (and PER doesn't measure defense or passing ability well) and position. You're really selling Pippen short by this comparison.

In any case I find you argument uncompelling: of course if I had a Kidd like PG with Kobe then I would go with Melo but the Kidd/Nash types aren't all that common (i.e. the current Denver team would take Pippen over Jordan I bet and cleveland would go with Kobe)


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> GAme-wise, they are comparable.


No, they aren't. There's at least a 10-15% difference in terms of impact on games from age 26-29, likely more.

All you have is assertion, just as I suspected. You can't defend your remarks.



> That's my point. Both great offensive (i give the slight edge to Kobe)


Slight edge to Kobe? :lol: What world are you living in? Kobe, when he gets insanely hot (roughly once every 50-70 games), is a more explosive scorer than Jordan. What about the other 97% of games? Jordan is clearly the better scorer. If your team needed a scorer to win you games, you'd have to be insane (as in "certifiable") to take Kobe over Jordan.

Kobe the better offensive player? Let's check their respective offensive ratings from age 26-28 (since Kobe's been "the man"):


Kobe's ORtg from age 26-28:

111 (5 above league average)
114 (8 above league average)
115 (9 above league average)

*Average: * 113.3 ORtg (*7.3* above league average during that time)


Jordan's ORtg from age 26-28

123 (15 above league average)
123 (15 above league average) 
125 (17 above league average)

*Averages: * 123.7 ORtg (*15.7* above league average) 


In fact, you'd have to look at Jordan when he was age *35* (1998) before you found a season where he was as little above league average in terms of ORtg (+9) as Kobe's *best* season in that regard since having his own team (2007). 

But you're right -- silly me. Kobe has the slight edge as an offensive player. :lol: Don't worry, Paulo -- just keep saying it and it'll make it true. It's what you and all delusional Kobe fans do best. (note: delusional ones who think he's equal or close to Jordan, not rational ones who know that he's a top 2-3 player in the game today with a case for being the best, but that there's still a clear difference between him and MJ as players)




> Both comparable passers and rebounders.



Games with 14+ rebounds: Jordan 26, Kobe 8

Game with 12+ rebounds: Jordan 67, Kobe 22

Games with 6+ offensive rebounds: Jordan 21, Kobe 4 (hasn't had one since 2002)

Games with 4+ offensive rebounds: Jordan ~105, Kobe 44

Rebounding average from age 21-28: Jordan 6.4, Kobe 5.9

Rebound Rate (RbR) from age 21-28: Jordan 9.4, Kobe 8.3

Rebounds per 40 minutes from age 21-28: Jordan 6.5, Kobe 5.9 

Seasons over 6 reb/gm: Jordan 7, Kobe 2

Seasons over 6 reb per 40 minutes: Jordan 11 (7 seasons at 6.6 reb/40 or better), Kobe 2 (high of 6.6 reb per 40)

Seasons over 7 reb per 40 minutes: Jordan 3, Kobe 0

Average playoff rebounds per game from age 21-28: Jordan 6.7, Kobe 5.4 (and Kobe played 1 more mpg on average during this span, as well, so on an equal minute basis the disparity is 6.9 rebs vs. 5.4 rebs)

Games with 7+ assists: Jordan 389, Kobe 192

Games with 9+ assists: Jordan 164, Kobe 85

Average assists per 40 minutes from age 21-28: Jordan 6.2, Kobe 5.3 

Average assist:TO ratio from age 21-28: Jordan 2.00:1, Kobe 1.68:1 

Games of 38+/7+/7+/50+% FG: Jordan 38, Kobe 7

Games of 40+/6+/6+: Jordan 54, Kobe 15



But yeah, they're comparable as rebounders and passers.  Again, all you have is assertion. Keep in mind that Kobe has played 60% of Jordan's total games (634 games) since becoming a starter and averaging 38 mpg. Is he near 60% of Jordan's totals in any area? And also remember that a lot of these numbers become harder to get as you get older, so it'll be much harder to "make up ground" after, say, 32. He should be around 70-75% of these totals right now to have any chance of matching them -- is he nearly at 70-75%? Nope. In fact, in many categories he's at < 40%.


Just to hammer this home further, in the last two seasons *combined*, Kobe has had 5 games of 10+ rebounds. Jordan at *age 33* in 1996 (*one* season) had *12*. In 1997, at age *34*, he had *5* (equal to Kobe's 2 season total at age 27-28), including a game of 18 boards (with a staggering 8 offensive boards). Oh yeah, I almost forgot: he was doing this in about *3.2 fewer minutes* per game, too. 

So let's drop the whole "they're comparable as this or that" stuff, mmmkay? Jordan was much more capable than Kobe of giving his team whatever they needed on any given night, and he had the *skills* (big word for Kobe fans) to make it happen.




> This is highly subjective. The thing you asked not to be brought to the table.


Actually, it's not. Literally *every single objective metric* (PER, EFF, Birdies, Win Shares, ORtg, DRtg, MVP votes, DPOY votes, RbR, AsR, ToR, per 40 stats, % above their respective league averages, playoff stats, regular season stats, stats through the same age) -- *everything* shows Jordan to be markedly superior.

All you have is assertion, because anyone can *say* that they're comparable, but no one can offer any sort of proof, just as you haven't.



> Jordan had a good defender, distributer, rebounder and scorer in Pippen. A good spot up jumpers in Hodges and Paxson. A good defender, rebounder in Grant, who could live by with putbacks, short jumpers and having no offensive play called to him. A good defender who could knock the open jumper with consistency in Cartwright.


Jordan was markedly superior before Cartwright even arrived, and before Pippen and Grant arrived or were anything other than benchwarmers. What aren't you understanding? You're simply *wrong*. 



> I understand having to guard Jordan in training would help Pippen's defene. But i really don't understand what he did for his passing and offense. Or help Horace Grant in post-defending, rebounding and sticking the jumper...


He didn't help each specific aspect of each of their games -- Scottie in particular was always a very talented player who would have been a good/great player regardless. It's doubtful he would've become the Pippen we know, however. Jordan mentally prepared him and pushed him to his limit, so that Pippen wouldn't be the shrinking violet he was his first few seasons. To his credit, Pippen responded and thrived where lesser players would have folded under Jordan's pressure. Again, Pippen and Grant threw up stinkers more often than not in big games. The link I posted was just one such example. Jordan eventually got them to play at a championship level. In terms of specific help, I know Jackson has said that Jordan used to tutor Pippen on defense early on in his first few years. But Jordan's impact on their game was more mental than anything else -- he made them into championship level players *mentally*, guys who wouldn't fold when the heat was on, as they had before 1991.

Also, if you think that it's just a coincidence that a player who many considered one of the best all-around players in the game and one of the best defenders (Pippen) _just happened_ to end up on the same team as another fantastically well-rounded player and one of the league's best defenders (Jordan), then that's your prerogative. Pretty big coincidence, there, though. 




> Sure, but in comparable scenarios. Kobe will never get serious MVP consideration by voyers playing with mediocre teams. That's why he is not getting any.


Jordan in 1987: 2nd place in MVP voting with a .59 share of the votes on a 40-win team

Jordan in 1989: 2nd place in MVP voting with a .70 share of the votes on a 47-win team


Kobe has finished 4th and 3rd the last two seasons with a .39 share and a .40 share of the votes on 45 and 41-win teams, respectively, which are comparable to the teams Jordan was on as seen above.

So sorry, but I don't buy that excuse. Your comment also begs the question a bit. Kobe should *make* the team better. What did Jordan have on his team '88 that was so great to get them to 50 wins? That's why he won MVP and Kobe didn't.




> MVP is not a purely individual award. It factors in team success.


No question, but like I said, even with a poor team (i.e., in comparable scenarios), Jordan was better -- better statistically, better in terms of MVP voting, just better overall.



> And the league consensus, the last couple of years, is that Kobe is the best basketball player in the world, no?


Is it? Lebron James won The Sporting News MVP last season and Dirk won it handily this season. This award is voted on by coaches, players, and GM's as opposed to the media. I have no problem with anyone saying that Kobe is the best in the league, but saying that it's a "consensus" is a bit much -- and I don't care how many quotes you dredge up. When it comes time for the coaches and players to actually vote, they didn't vote for Kobe.




> It's easy to motivate driven players, like Pippen and Grant, than guys with little basketball IQ and little passion.


Right. Everything Jordan did or had was "easy," and everything Kobe has to do or attains is "hard." Gotcha. Post-hoc reasoning at its finest, ladies and gentleman.




> How successfull was Jordan with the 1987-88 Bull's roster?


50 wins, MVP, DPOY, ASG MVP, 255+ steals/130+ blocks, and beat a vastly more talented Cavs team who no one expected them to beat in the first round by averaging 45+/6/5/54% FG. So yeah, given what he had I'd say he was pretty successful.




> Debatable, because *fact*is that Kobe is the best perimeter player to come around since Jordan.


Certainly agreed there. Doesn't mean he's Jordan's equal, however, or even very close.



> Game-wise, they are almost identical.


No, they aren't. See how easy mere assertion is? Prove this as I asked you to do. You won't be able to point to *any* sort of objective measure outside of your own skewed perceptions.




> What makes Jordan a better player (and considering ONLY personal habilities) is his higher BBall IQ (later developed) and his superior defense.


Jordan always had better court awareness and IQ than Kobe -- it's partly why he had such amazing efficiency. He knew what he was going to do a step or two ahead of the defense, and dictated the game to the defense, not the other way around like Kobe does, where he simply reacts. I could post literally endless video that would demonstrate this clearly, but that would be tedious.

What he learned later on, as the 80's wore on -- and what you're alluding to, I suppose -- is how to blend his game within a team concept better and become a better leader.



PauloCatarino said:


> I love it when people bring the fact that Pippen carried the Chicago Bulls to the Conference Finals with Pete Myers replacing Michael Jordan. It stresses the fact that Jordan wasn't all that.


It wasn't the conference finals, it was the semis. And they beat a depleted Cavs team whose best player was Mark Price, and who were missing their best/second best player (Daugherty, 17/10) and Williams (14/8). If the Cavs are at full strength, there's a legit chance that the Bulls don't get past the first round, seeing as how Cleveland won the season series 3-1 that year.

And it's always amusing how people compare the '94 squad to the '93 squad and not the 67-win '92 Bulls, despite the fact that Pippen, Jordan, and Jackson are all on record as saying that they were sluggish that year due to the Dream Team experience that Summer. Interesting.




Sir Insanity said:


> Kobe is actually more skilled and has more basketball talent than Jordan did


Put down the pipe.

Incidentally, I wish I had a nickel for every time the "skills" thing is brough up concerning Kobe. News flash: skills necessarily translate into production in some fashion. When there's a yawning gulf in production between two players in literally every area, chances are that the lesser of the two is not as skilled. 

As for basketball "talent," I have to LOL. Jordan is arguably the most talented player ever -- he invented and redefined nearly every move in the book, and his creativity is still without peer. The game flowed out of him naturally in a way that Kobe can only hope to imitate (and oh, has he done more than hope...). Kobe is certainly one of the 5-10 most talented players ever (all positions included), but more so than Jordan? Again, get your eyes checked.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Holy christ, Paulo, what'd you do to piss off Jordan23Forever so much to write a book?!?


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: Kobe Bryant vs. Scottie Pippen*



Pioneer10 said:


> While it's easy to say Marion rebounding equals out Pippens ballhandling. It's important to note that not only is Pippen a better ballhandler but he was also a much better passer then Pippen. While he's also a good defender - he's a significant step below Pippen - Marion's never even made an all defensive team (Marion no 1st or second teams, Pippen - 10 All NBA defense/ 8 of them first team all defense). The only things they have in common is a relatively similar PER numbers (and PER doesn't measure defense or passing ability well) and position. You're really selling Pippen short by this comparison.


Actually, I'm not selling Scottie Pippen short. I'm looking at the same caliber of play, not checking off a grocery list of skills like you are. 

Pippen was an all-star-caliber player who got more press than Shawn Marion because he was the second-player on those Chicago Bulls championsip teams in the 1990s. Both are above-average scorers, very good athletes, strong transition players and had flexibility at small forward to provide some different aspects (Marion with rebounding, Pippen with ball-handling and passing). Pippen proivded uncommon steals from his spot; Marion uncommon blocked shots. Pippen was a great trapping defender who played the passing lanes exceptionally well; Marion is the better interior defender of the two.

But outside of Pippen getting a ton more publicity for being fortunate to play with Michael Jordan, it's not like Pippen is some upgrade over Marion. If anything, you're selling Marion short and seem to be overrating Pippen.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

10-15% is the average point difference between the best and worst teams in the league. not the difference between the best and arguably 2nd (or 3rd) best players ever at their position.


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## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

*Re: Kobe Bryant vs. Scottie Pippen*



Najee said:


> Actually, I'm not selling Scottie Pippen short. I'm looking at the same caliber of play, not checking off a grocery list of skills like you are.
> 
> Pippen was an all-star-caliber player who got more press than Shawn Marion because he was the second-player on those Chicago Bulls championsip teams in the 1990s. Both are above-average scorers, very good athletes, strong transition players and had flexibility at small forward to provide some different aspects (Marion with rebounding, Pippen with ball-handling and passing). Pippen proivded uncommon steals from his spot; Marion uncommon blocked shots. Pippen was a great trapping defender who played the passing lanes exceptionally well; Marion is the better interior defender of the two.
> 
> But outside of Pippen getting a ton more publicity for being fortunate to play with Michael Jordan, it's not like Pippen is some upgrade over Marion. If anything, you're selling Marion short and seem to be overrating Pippen.


I think you're overrating Marion just a tad. In the years when Jordan left, do you honestly think they could have won over 50 games like they did with Marion at the helm instead of Pippen? I certainly don't think so. Besides, there's no way you could have your offense run through Marion.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

*Re: Kobe Bryant vs. Scottie Pippen*



Najee said:


> Actually, I'm not selling Scottie Pippen short. I'm looking at the same caliber of play, not checking off a grocery list of skills like you are.
> 
> Pippen was an all-star-caliber player who got more press than Shawn Marion because he was the second-player on those Chicago Bulls championsip teams in the 1990s. Both are above-average scorers, very good athletes, strong transition players and had flexibility at small forward to provide some different aspects (Marion with rebounding, Pippen with ball-handling and passing). Pippen proivded uncommon steals from his spot; Marion uncommon blocked shots. Pippen was a great trapping defender who played the passing lanes exceptionally well; Marion is the better interior defender of the two.
> 
> But outside of Pippen getting a ton more publicity for being fortunate to play with Michael Jordan, it's not like Pippen is some upgrade over Marion. If anything, you're selling Marion short and seem to be overrating Pippen.


If you want to simply ignore all the first team defense accolades for Pippen then I'm not really sure what there is to argue about. Pippen is considered by some to be the greatest help defender in the history of the game matched with being a top notch individual defender as well. Marion is the best of Phoenix but he's get overrated as a defender because Phoenix has a plenty of poor defenders. You're falling into the trap assuming steals and blocks are actually good measure of defensive impact when it's pretty clear they are not. Again if Marion is such an exceptional defender: he hasn't made even one all nba defensive team and he's playing for a team that gets plenty of publicity with a teammates that boast two MVP trophies and ROY plus All-Star appearances. In addition to the all-defensive teams, looking at some numbers that are indirect correlates of defense as well: Pippen w/o Jordan was on Chicago teams that were second and 6th in the league in defense. Another indirect correlate (defensive composite stats), Marion doesn't come out all that well as he is considerd a very good but not exceptional defender.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

kflo said:


> 10-15% is the average point difference between the best and worst teams in the league. not the difference between the best and arguably 2nd (or 3rd) best players ever at their position.


BS.

There's a 10-15% difference between them just looking at it statistically, and then you can add in Jordan's edge in defensive impact (which is significant, and primarily centered around team/help/off-the-ball defense) and intangibles (court awareness/bball IQ, leadership etc.).

And you're looking at it wrong: 10-15% is the difference between the GOAT (or top 2) and the #19-24 player of all-time. Positional ranking has little to do with how good a player you are overall, only with how you compare to those at your position.

Like I said, at least 10-15%. In fact, I'd like for you to show me how there's *not* a 10-15% difference in impact between them. But I know you can't. Let me help you out with a post I made on another board about this topic:


No question the last two seasons have been Kobe's best. Yet he still pales in comparison. Here are Kobe's numbers from the past 3 seasons (sorry, but I'm not going to act as if the 2005 season never happened like many Kobe fans do) and Jordan's 3 years from age 25-28:


*Kobe**:* 

31.5 pts 
5.6 reb 
5.3 ast 
1.5 stl 
.6 blk 
44.9% FG (*.3% below* league average during that span)

*26.6 EFF* (one 10th, one 5th, and one 2nd place finish; *5.1 EFF* above league average

*25.8 PER* (one 8th, one 3rd, and one 5th place finish; an average of *2.1 PER* above 10th place PER finisher in that span)

113 ORtg (*6 above* league average)

108 DRtg (*2 above* league average; N.B. - this is bad)

Net O/DRtg: *+4* above league average


*Jordan:*

32.5 pts
7.0 reb
6.6 ast
2.8 stl
.8 blk
53.4% FG (*5.8% above* league average during that span)

*34.8 EFF* (two 1st place and one 2nd place finish; *10.6 EFF* above league average) 

*31.3 PER* (three 1st place finishes; an average of *8.6 PER* above 10th place PER finisher in that span)

124 ORtg (*16 above* league average)

104 DRtg (*4 below* league average)

Net O/DRtg: *+20* above league average 


So yeah...draw your own conclusions. Kobe's awesome, but it's not really as close as some people would like to make it seem. No matter where you look there are sizeable disparities between them. Also note that the only reason Kobe's EFF is as good as it is relative to his peers is because he plays significantly more minutes than Jordan did (2 more mpg on average than Jordan during the years in question); this is reflected in the minute-adjusted PER values. Kobe's 40.9 mpg vs. Jordan's 38.9 mpg does make a difference, believe it or not; for instance, here are Jordan's numbers taken at 40.9 mpg and Kobe's numbers again:


*25-28 yr old Jordan per 40.9 mpg:*

*34.2 pts* (9% above Kobe's # seen below)
*7.4 reb* (32% above Kobe)
*7.0 ast* (32% above Kobe)
*3.0 stl* (100% above Kobe)
*.9 blk* (33% above Kobe)
*53.4% FG* (19% above Kobe)


*25-28 yr old Kobe per 40.9 mpg:*

*31.5 pts*
*5.6 reb*
*5.3 ast*
*1.5 stl*
*.6 blk*
*44.9% FG*


So...yeah. Let's please end this "discussion." Kobe's good enough on his own -- no need to try and make him into something he's not and never really has been. I'm not even going to go into the playoff disparity between the two during the same ages, because that would be overkill.

Like I said, at least a 10-15% difference in terms of impact on games.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Here's another copy and paste of mine on this subject. I just want to drive home the sizeable disparity between the two in terms of production (which is only one component of impact -- though the largest one; unfortunately for Kobe, Jordan has moderate to significant edges in the other components of impact also, namely intangibles, leadership, and defensive impact). Here you go:


Kobe's best season (2006) doesn't even crack Jordan's top 8 seasons statistically. I have to laugh at the poster who said that it's basically a "pick 'em" between the two, and that any difference is attributable to the quality of their teammates. This ignores the fact that Jordan was significantly better than Kobe even before he got a good team around him. It's just a joke, really. I'd have thought my long post would have destroyed the will of all Kobe groupies, but this guy is apparently a special case. So here's what I'll do. We'll take Kobe's best year (2006) and compare it to Jordan's 7th or 8th best statistical season. We'll take per 40 minute numbers to simplify calculations:


*2006 Kobe per 40**:*

34.6 pts
5.2 reb
4.4 ast
1.8 stl
.4 blk
45.0% FG

28.0 PER (4.2 PER above 10th place PER finisher)
27.8 EFF (6.6 EFF above league average)
114 ORtg
105 DRtg
Net O/DRtg vs. league average: +9


*1987 Jordan per 40**:*

37.1 pts
5.2 reb
4.6 ast
2.9 stl
1.5 blk
48.2% FG

29.8 PER (7.7 PER above 10th place PER finisher)
31.9 EFF (7.2 EFF above league average)
117 ORtg
104 DRtg
Net O/DRtg vs. league average: +13


And this was Jordan's *7th or 8th worst statistical season*, and it's still better than Kobe's best in every respect. So imagine Kobe stringing together 7-8 seasons in a row as good or better than his 2006 season and you'll have an idea of the level Jordan was at. Jordan's best Net O/DRtg relative to league average was a staggering *+24*. Kobe's *best* season was +12 (and it was in 2000; in 2006, widely considered Kobe's best season, he was only +9). 

For comparison, Jordan had *10 seasons* better than +13, including 8 seasons between +17-24. In fact, Jordan's *average* net O/DRtg upon retirement in 1998 (11 full seasons) was *+18.1* -- Kobe's never even had a single season better than +12.


End. This. Discussion.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

He laid the gauntlet down with those last 2 posts


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jordan23Forever said:


> No, they aren't. There's at least a 10-15% difference in terms of impact on games from age 26-29, likely more.
> 
> All you have is assertion, just as I suspected. You can't defend your remarks.


Here we go again with stats... Not observation...



> Slight edge to Kobe? :lol: What world are you living in? Kobe, when he gets insanely hot (roughly once every 50-70 games), is a more explosive scorer than Jordan. What about the other 97% of games? Jordan is clearly the better scorer. If your team needed a scorer to win you games, you'd have to be insane (as in "certifiable") to take Kobe over Jordan.
> 
> Kobe the better offensive player? Let's check their respective offensive ratings from age 26-28 (since Kobe's been "the man"):
> 
> ...


I said they are comparable players. Still, you try to make it a question of comparable stats. But let's play your game:

The 26-28 Jordan had better Efg%, and Ts% than Kobe. But the gap isn't as relevant as, say, the gap between Kobe and Iverson (another wing volume scorer). And that makes it comparable. Jordan doesn't win by a ladslide. It's close. As cole as a 1 point difference in Rrate and a 1 point diference in Aratio. 

Oh, another thing of interest: the 26-28 Jordan made 148 3pointers. In the last 3 years Kobe made 448. Maybe that's irrelevant when i say that Kobe has more range in his game, yes?



> But you're right -- silly me. Kobe has the slight edge as an offensive player. :lol: Don't worry, Paulo -- just keep saying it and it'll make it true. It's what you and all delusional Kobe fans do best. (note: delusional ones who think he's equal or close to Jordan, not rational ones who know that he's a top 2-3 player in the game today with a case for being the best, but that there's still a clear difference between him and MJ as players)


I still don't get it: even stat-wise (wich is not my claim), how come Kobe is not *CLOSE *to Jordan? How fo you define "close"? Is a 2ppg difference "close"? Is a 1.3Rrate point "close"? Is a .020TS% "close"?

You seem to be comparing, say, Jordan to someone like Ray Allen.



> Games with 14+ rebounds: Jordan 26, Kobe 8
> 
> Game with 12+ rebounds: Jordan 67, Kobe 22
> 
> ...


A look on Aration and Rrate should have enlightenes you...
Career: Jordan - 15.2 and 9.7; Kobe - 15.3 and 8.1.
Yeah, i know, i know, you want to keep it with the "26-28 Jordan"... For it's irrelevant that Jordan was winning championships with lesses Efg% and TS% than, say, Kobe last year, yes? 



> Just to hammer this home further, in the last two seasons *combined*, Kobe has had 5 games of 10+ rebounds. Jordan at *age 33* in 1996 (*one* season) had *12*. In 1997, at age *34*, he had *5* (equal to Kobe's 2 season total at age 27-28), including a game of 18 boards (with a staggering 8 offensive boards). Oh yeah, I almost forgot: he was doing this in about *3.2 fewer minutes* per game, too.


Jordan career Rrate: 9.4 (counting the Wizards years); Kobe: 8.1 (counting his teenage years). Again, close. Just to keep it in perspective, Drexler as a career of 9.9, Ray Allen 7.3 and Iverson 5.3.
So, yeah, Jordan is comparable to Drexler, and Kobe to Jordan and Allen to Kobe. Allen is not comparable to Drexler and Iverson is not comparable to Kobe. Makes sense, no?



> So let's drop the whole "they're comparable as this or that" stuff, mmmkay? Jordan was much more capable than Kobe of giving his team whatever they needed on any given night, and he had the *skills* (big word for Kobe fans) to make it happen.


I can't imagine what is this "much more capable stuff". Is it the fact that coaches wanted Jordan to pass more (a tactic wich he fought)? And, to prove his point, when he was asked to play PG he hogged the ball so much that eventhough he amassed triple doubles, the team lost half those games. You see, young grasshopper, i have the notion that you are talking about a different Michael Jordan that i am. Till Jordan won his first championship (and that was, what, 8 years in?) people were still wondering if, eventhough Jordan was undoubtedly one of the Big-3 (although Bird had been deteorating), he could lead his team all the way... 



> Actually, it's not. Literally *every single objective metric* (PER, EFF, Birdies, Win Shares, ORtg, DRtg, MVP votes, DPOY votes, RbR, AsR, ToR, per 40 stats, % above their respective league averages, playoff stats, regular season stats, stats through the same age) -- *everything* shows Jordan to be markedly superior.


Nope. "superior" is not "markedly superior". Kobe is, what, 28? Give him a solid team to compete, and i would say his efficience as a player, stat-wise, will increase, no? 



> All you have is assertion, because anyone can *say* that they're comparable, but no one can offer any sort of proof, just as you haven't.


Young buck, you have done the job for me. Even if we go solely by statistics, Kobe is "comparable" to Jordan. And please keep in mind that i'm not saying that Kobe is better or even on pair with Jordan. I'm saying that he is at his level, even if inferior.



> Jordan was markedly superior before Cartwright even arrived, and before Pippen and Grant arrived or were anything other than benchwarmers. What aren't you understanding? You're simply *wrong*.
> 
> He didn't help each specific aspect of each of their games -- Scottie in particular was always a very talented player who would have been a good/great player regardless. It's doubtful he would've become the Pippen we know, however. Jordan mentally prepared him and pushed him to his limit, so that Pippen wouldn't be the shrinking violet he was his first few seasons. To his credit, Pippen responded and thrived where lesser players would have folded under Jordan's pressure. Again, Pippen and Grant threw up stinkers more often than not in big games. The link I posted was just one such example. Jordan eventually got them to play at a championship level. In terms of specific help, I know Jackson has said that Jordan used to tutor Pippen on defense early on in his first few years. But Jordan's impact on their game was more mental than anything else -- he made them into championship level players *mentally*, guys who wouldn't fold when the heat was on, as they had before 1991.


Besides helping Pippen's defense in practice, i don't think Jordan did anything, mentally, to those players. Yes he was the team captain, and once the Bulls started to become real contenders, everyone was on the same page (wich naturally happens), but Pippen didn't stop being a whiner, and Grant didn't stop complaining about salaries, etc..
You seem to believe that Jordan turned Pippen and Grant into winners. Both player's careers tend to dismiss it. Oh, and getting Craig Hodges fired was also a proof that Jordan didi it all to elevate his teammates games, huh? Or punching a teammate in practice... Hmmm...

Pippen and Grant were both lottery picks. For some reason, i imagine...



> Also, if you think that it's just a coincidence that a player who many considered one of the best all-around players in the game and one of the best defenders (Pippen) _just happened_ to end up on the same team as another fantastically well-rounded player and one of the league's best defenders (Jordan), then that's your prerogative. Pretty big coincidence, there, though.


Like i've always said, Jordan must have helped Pippen's defense. However, to say that Jordan "made" Pippen is laughable. I wonder, then, who "made" Mocrief, Cooper, Havlicek, Frazier, etc., etc., etc., other great 2-way, complementary players. 



> Jordan in 1987: 2nd place in MVP voting with a .59 share of the votes on a 40-win team
> 
> Jordan in 1989: 2nd place in MVP voting with a .70 share of the votes on a 47-win team
> 
> ...


First of all, Larry Bird should have won that award.
That being said, in 1988 there was only 3 teams (other then Chicago) to get over 42 wins in the Eastern Conference. That helps a little. The year Kobe went for 35ppg there were 7 teams in the WC to win more than 42 games. A liiitle diferent, no?



> No question, but like I said, even with a poor team (i.e., in comparable scenarios), Jordan was better -- better statistically, better in terms of MVP voting, just better overall.


But the question we are debating, young grasshopper, is *how much better*. Was Jordan clearly better than, say, Drexler? Yes, no doubt. I just don't think it's the case regarding Kobe.



> Is it? Lebron James won The Sporting News MVP last season and Dirk won it handily this season. This award is voted on by coaches, players, and GM's as opposed to the media. I have no problem with anyone saying that Kobe is the best in the league, but saying that it's a "consensus" is a bit much -- and I don't care how many quotes you dredge up. When it comes time for the coaches and players to actually vote, they didn't vote for Kobe.


The MVP award is a curious thing, for BOTH Lebron AND Dirk have stated that Kobe is the best. Wich is interesting. But, like i've said, MVP is not relevant in this case because Kobe won't win it playing for a mediocre team. Now, if you want to state that Steve Nash has been better than Kobe and Duncan (and others), be my guest...



> Right. Everything Jordan did or had was "easy," and everything Kobe has to do or attains is "hard." Gotcha. Post-hoc reasoning at its finest, ladies and gentleman.


Where have i said that? Look, we aren't talking about scrubs, here. We are talking about Michael freaking Jordan. One the greatest players ever. Off course he helped his team win. Off course he helped his teammates elevate their games. That's what great players do. But if you think that Jordan would have won a championship with Oakley, Sellers, Corzine, Vincent, PAxso, Sparrow and the others, you would be wrong. The same think if you think Kobe can compete for the championship with the scrubs he has to work with. 



> 50 wins, MVP, DPOY, ASG MVP, 255+ steals/130+ blocks, and beat a vastly more talented Cavs team who no one expected them to beat in the first round by averaging 45+/6/5/54% FG. So yeah, given what he had I'd say he was pretty successful.


Weren't the Cavs a 42-40 team then? "Vastly more talented"?



> No, they aren't. See how easy mere assertion is? Prove this as I asked you to do. You won't be able to point to *any* sort of objective measure outside of your own skewed perceptions.
> 
> Jordan always had better court awareness and IQ than Kobe -- it's partly why he had such amazing efficiency. He knew what he was going to do a step or two ahead of the defense, and dictated the game to the defense, not the other way around like Kobe does, where he simply reacts. I could post literally endless video that would demonstrate this clearly, but that would be tedious.
> 
> What he learned later on, as the 80's wore on -- and what you're alluding to, I suppose -- is how to blend his game within a team concept better and become a better leader.


This is where we differ.



> It wasn't the conference finals, it was the semis. And they beat a depleted Cavs team whose best player was Mark Price, and who were missing their best/second best player (Daugherty, 17/10) and Williams (14/8). If the Cavs are at full strength, there's a legit chance that the Bulls don't get past the first round, seeing as how Cleveland won the season series 3-1 that year.
> 
> And it's always amusing how people compare the '94 squad to the '93 squad and not the 67-win '92 Bulls, despite the fact that Pippen, Jordan, and Jackson are all on record as saying that they were sluggish that year due to the Dream Team experience that Summer. Interesting.


"Depleted team" or not, that doesn't change the fact that the Bulls were still competitive. With Pete Myers replacing Michael Jordan.

And i can also recall that hadn't been for the scrub Charles Smith the Jordan-Bulls could have one less championships. And that if Worthy was healthy maybe the Lakers could have won it in 1991, and if Zeke was at full strenght and not limping all over the court the Piston could have won a couple years back... 
etc., etc.



> Put down the pipe.
> 
> Incidentally, I wish I had a nickel for every time the "skills" thing is brough up concerning Kobe. News flash: skills necessarily translate into production in some fashion. When there's a yawning gulf in production between two players in literally every area, chances are that the lesser of the two is not as skilled.


It's curious. For years peeps have been saying Kobe copycatted (sp?) Jordan. Kobe is considered one of the best players in the world for some years, now. Still, he doesn't come "close" to MJ. 



> As for basketball "talent," I have to LOL. *Jordan is arguably the most talented player ever -- he invented and redefined nearly every move in the book, and his creativity is still without peer*. The game flowed out of him naturally in a way that Kobe can only hope to imitate (and oh, has he done more than hope...). Kobe is certainly one of the 5-10 most talented players ever (all positions included), but more so than Jordan? Again, get your eyes checked.


You know, this is the kind of statements that makes me believe that your vision of Michael Jordan is the one of a God-like fugure who came into the league and showed people how to play basketball.
Exactly wich move has Jordan "invented" other than "The waiving tongue"? Wilt Chamberlain was shooting fadeaways decades before. Earl Monroe was considered an unstopable one-on-one player on offense, with moves "even God couldn't defend" (or something like this). Was it the dunks, baseline drives and scoops Doc was doing for 10 years? Was it Gervin's fingerroll (wich Wilt used before)? 

Stop living in Fantasy World. Micahel Jordan was one of the greatest (i rank him #3), but he wasn't the player you think he was. And to say that Kobe's *game *doesn't come *close *to Jordan's is wrong. Hell, even by your caleidoscopic view of both players, you grade the difference in 10-15%, so you don't seem to think they are all that far apart, yes? 

I only think they are closer than that.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

again, 10-15% is the difference between the BEST and WORST team in the league. stating there's an equivalent difference between jordan and kobe simply doesn't pass a sniff test. but carry on.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Let me guess... This thread will last for six more years (when Kobe retires)


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

The One said:


> Let me guess... This thread will last for six more years (when Kobe retires)


Who said Kobe's retiring in 6 years?


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Basel57 said:


> Who said Kobe's retiring in 6 years?


9 years maybe?


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

-----


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Here we go again with stats... Not observation...


And again, you -- just like every Kobe groupie -- only have *assertion*. You cannot back up your case that they're "virtually identical" with *any* objective, empirical evidence. What does that say about your claim?



> I said they are comparable players. Still, you try to make it a question of comparable stats.


But you don't get it: anyone can *say* whatever they want. But when you actually look _beyond_ mere assertion, you realize that the gap between them in terms of impact is sizeable.



> But let's play your game:
> 
> The 26-28 Jordan had better Efg%, and Ts% than Kobe.


First off, it's typical of Kobe fans to point to eFG% and TS%, because it makes Kobe look beter than he actually is. What matters (to a team) is the *number of misses* a player causes. All TS% does is count 3-pointers as worth 1.5 times as much as two-pointers (duh). What it fails to do is make any sort of adjustment for the negative effects of taking too many 3-pointers, and consequently of *missing more shots*.




> But the gap isn't as relevant as, say, the gap between Kobe and Iverson (another wing volume scorer).


Even in terms of your precious TS%, Jordan's average from age 25-28 was 60.8% vs. Kobe's 56.7%, for a difference of 4.1% TS. Iverson's TS% the last 3 seasons has been 53.8%, which is only 2.9% below Kobe's. What were you saying about the relative size of the gap again?




> And that makes it comparable. Jordan doesn't win by a ladslide. It's close. As cole as a 1 point difference in Rrate and a 1 point diference in Aratio.


Two things:

- You're comparing Joran's *career* numbers to Kobe's numbers through the middle of his prime. Disingenuous for several reasons. Compare them through the same age.

- I already showed you the *significant* gap between them as rebounder and passers, yet you choose to ignore all of that. Here's a clue: anyone who reads the numbers I put up earlier will have an idea of who was *clearly* the better rebounder and passer. You can't explain that sort of disparity away.



> Oh, another thing of interest: the 26-28 Jordan made 148 3pointers. In the last 3 years Kobe made 448. Maybe that's irrelevant when i say that Kobe has more range in his game, yes?


Who ever suggested that Kobe doesn't have better range and is more consistent from deep? But what does that mean, ultimately? Does Kobe get some sort of bonus points because he can hit shots from 25 feet out more consistently than Jordan could? No.




> I still don't get it: even stat-wise (wich is not my claim), how come Kobe is not *CLOSE *to Jordan? How fo you define "close"? Is a 2ppg difference "close"? Is a 1.3Rrate point "close"? Is a .020TS% "close"?


Again, you're comparing Jordan's career numbers -- a career which stretched through age 40, mind you -- to Kobe's numbers through the middle of his prime. A typical Kobe fan tactic. How is it "not close," you ask? Oh, I don't know - maybe you should go back and *read the previous few posts of mine again*. Better yet, let me show you some of their numbers again. If you're so dense that you'll ask me again how it's not close after this, then go back to school:


*Jordan from age 21-28:*

33.0 pts
6.4 reb (9.4 RbR)
6.0 ast (16.5 AsR)
2.8 stl
1.1 blk
39.2 mpg

52.3% FG (*4.6% above* league average)
59.7% TS (*6.0% above* league average)


33.4 EFF (*8.9 EFF above* league average)

EFF finishes: *1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3*

30.2 PER (*7.8 PER above* 10th place PER finisher during this span)

PER finishes: *1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2* 

Average ORtg: 121.5 (*13.5 above* league average)

Average DRtg: 103.8 (*4.2 below* league average)

Net O/DRtg above league average: *+17.7*

Average Win Shares: *52.5*

Win Share Finishes: *1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 4*



*Kobe from age 21-28:*

28.1 pts
5.9 reb (8.3 RbR)
5.3 ast (15.8 AsR)
1.7 stl
.6 blk
39.9 mpg

45.5% FG (*.4% above* league average)
55.6% TS (*1.8% above* league average)

25.3 EFF (*4.0 EFF above* league average)

EFF finishes: *2, 5, 5, 5, 9, 9, 10, 12*

24.6 PER (*1.6 PER above* 10th place PER finisher during this span)

PER finishes: *2, 5, 5, 5, 6, 8, 8, 11+(?)*

Average ORtg: 112.1 (*7.5 above* league average)

Average DRtg: 104.5 (*.1 below* league average)

Net O/DRtg above league average: *+7.6*

Average Win Shares: *36.3*

Win Share Finishes: *2, 3, 3, 5, 5, 7, 9, 11+*



The best way to read these numbers is to look at each category for Jordan and then look at that same category for Kobe, so you can get an idea for the difference there. 

I won't even begin to look at their respective playoff numbers, because that would be embarrassing for Kobe. *Embarrassing*. Let's also overlook the fact that Kobe is playing .7 more mpg than Jordan during this span (39.9 mpg vs. 39.2 mpg), so the straight stat comparison assuming equal mpg would be like so:


*Jordan*

33.6 pts
6.5 reb
6.1 ast
2.9 stl
1.1 blk


*Kobe:*

28.1 pts
5.9 reb
5.3 ast
1.7 stl
.6 blk


So...yeah. And Jordan's playoff numbers completely *obliterate* Kobe's, but like I said, I'm taking mercy on you and not examining these.




> You seem to be comparing, say, Jordan to someone like Ray Allen.


No, you just seem to not be aware of the sizeable gap in production between the two through the same ages -- both absolute production and production relative to their respective leagues. Take a look above again if you're confused; pay particular attention to the Net O/DRtg compared to league average, the PER/EFF finishes and how far above league average they were, Win Share finishes, and their efficiency as compared to the league. Get your eyes checked. 

Jordan's PER through age 28 was 30.2, as you can see above. Kobe has only had *one season* which has come within even *10%* of that (2006).




> I can't imagine what is this "much more capable stuff". Is it the fact that coaches wanted Jordan to pass more (a tactic wich he fought)? And, to prove his point, when he was asked to play PG he hogged the ball so much that eventhough he amassed triple doubles, the team lost half those games. You see, young grasshopper, i have the notion that you are talking about a different Michael Jordan that i am.


More Paulo obfuscation and sophistry. By "more capable," I mean that the incidence of high-rebounding and high-assist games shows that he was capable of providing whatever his team needed on any given night to a greater degree than Kobe is. This is indisputable. If you needed help on the boards, and needed a guy to get you 13+ rebounds, you'd have to be insane to look to Kobe to do it over Jordan in light of the numbers posted earlier.

Seriously Paulo, do you have reading comprehension issues?




> Nope. "superior" is not "markedly superior". Kobe is, what, 28? Give him a solid team to compete, and i would say his efficience as a player, stat-wise, will increase, no?


Jordan's didn't, so why would Kobe's? Jordan's best statistical years came in the 80's and during the first championship season. Production declines with age; further, when you have a solid team around you others will be able to pick up the slack and produce, and the team won't be so dependent on you. In some cases efficiency might increase (which is usually offset by aging), but volume will decrease, resulting in no net gain as far as aggregate statistical metrics go. 



> Young buck, you have done the job for me. Even if we go solely by statistics, Kobe is "comparable" to Jordan. And please keep in mind that i'm not saying that Kobe is better or even on pair with Jordan. I'm saying that he is at his level, even if inferior.


Take a look at the above numbers again. Then go back and look at the numbers in the previous posts. Then tell me how there is anything *but* at least a 10% difference strictly in numbers there. Then add in Jordan's defensive edge and edge in intangibles and leadership and explain to me how that doesn't *increase* the edge he already has in production to make the gap between the two as *overall players* (i.e., in terms of impact on games) at least 10-15%. Explain that to me.

Go grab a calculator and check the percentage differences between the numbers above. Jordan dominated the league in a way that Kobe has only *approached* for a single season in his career -- and even that season (2006) wouldn't crack Jordan's top 7 seasons overall.



> Besides helping Pippen's defense in practice, i don't think Jordan did anything, mentally, to those players.


You're right -- it was magic that they went from throwing up a combined 12 points on 4-27 shooting in game 7 of the 1990 Conference Finals to becoming the solid, steady players we now remember them as. WHatever you say...



> You seem to believe that Jordan turned Pippen and Grant into winners. Both player's careers tend to dismiss it.


How so? Once a player becomes the player they are, it will always be with them. That Grant and Pippen had some measure of success without Jordan matters little when speaking about how he helped mold them and push them in their formative years as NBA players.



> First of all, Larry Bird should have won that award.


This gets better and better. :lol: Bird undoubtedly had one of the best seasons in history (30/9/6/53% FG/61% TS), but Jordan's was better. Bird's Celts only won 7 more games despite having a vastly superior supporting cast, and Bird's 4 extra rebounds are not enough to offset Jordan's 5 extra ppg on equal efficiency, double the steals and blocks, and his DPOY and overall defensive impact.




> That being said, in 1988 there was only 3 teams (other then Chicago) to get over 42 wins in the Eastern Conference. That helps a little. The year Kobe went for 35ppg there were 7 teams in the WC to win more than 42 games. A liiitle diferent, no?


Fair enough. Let's ignore the entire MVP tangent and focus on production, then. Fine with me.



> But the question we are debating, young grasshopper, is *how much better*. Was Jordan clearly better than, say, Drexler? Yes, no doubt. I just don't think it's the case regarding Kobe.


We're all wrong sometimes, Paulo; you're wrong here. I hope you realize that literally 95% of the people who read the preceding posts will realize that there is a substantial difference between Jordan and Kobe in terms of production and impact.




> The MVP award is a curious thing, for BOTH Lebron AND Dirk have stated that Kobe is the best. Wich is interesting.


Always amusing when a Laker fan brings comments like these up. Magic has repeatedly stated, even during his playing days, that Jordan was better than him. Somehow I think you'll take issue with that, however. I wonder what the difference between these two cases is...




> Where have i said that? Look, we aren't talking about scrubs, here. We are talking about Michael freaking Jordan. One the greatest players ever. Off course he helped his team win. Off course he helped his teammates elevate their games. That's what great players do. But if you think that Jordan would have won a championship with Oakley, Sellers, Corzine, Vincent, PAxso, Sparrow and the others, you would be wrong. The same think if you think Kobe can compete for the championship with the scrubs he has to work with.


I wouldn't (and don't) expect either of them to win a championship with supporting casts of that quality. I look at relative success in similar situations along with individual play. And I see Jordan taking a team not much better than these Lakers to game 6 of the conference finals in '89, playing the eventual champions tougher than any other team that postseason. 




> Weren't the Cavs a 42-40 team then? "Vastly more talented"?


Yeah, vastly more talented. Their second best player, Larry Nance, missed 55 games that year, and Harper, their third or fourth best player (23/5/5 the season prior) missed 25 games -- and they still were above .500 on the season despite this. They had swept Chicago 4-0 that season, and literally *no one* picked the Bulls to win that series; there's a reason for that. 



> And i can also recall that hadn't been for the scrub Charles Smith the Jordan-Bulls could have one less championships. And that if Worthy was healthy maybe the Lakers could have won it in 1991, and if Zeke was at full strenght and not limping all over the court the Piston could have won a couple years back...
> etc., etc.


You need to do your research, then, because even if Smith hit that layup, it would have resulted in a game 7, not a Knicks series victory then and there. And your slip is showing again if you think that Worthy's 3 extra points and 2 assists (what his averages were down in that series as compared to the rest of the playoffs that year) were going to change the outcome of that series. Maybe you were watching a different series, but the one I saw had Jordan *thoroughly* outplaying Magic, Pippen playing beautiful all-around ball, Paxson shooting around 90% from the field, and the Lakers garnering their sole victory on a lucky shot by Perkins at the buzzer.




> It's curious. For years peeps have been saying Kobe copycatted (sp?) Jordan. Kobe is considered one of the best players in the world for some years, now. Still, he doesn't come "close" to MJ.


Again, "close" is relative. If you wear purple-and-gold glasses, you believe that they're virtually equal as players. If you're a normal individual who both watched both players in their prime and has looked at all the *objective* evidence, you realize that there's about a 10-15% difference in terms of impact on the average day. Not "Kobe's absolute best game vs. Jordan's average game," but on both of their average days. 




> Exactly wich move has Jordan "invented" other than "The waiving tongue"? Wilt Chamberlain was shooting fadeaways decades before. Earl Monroe was considered an unstopable one-on-one player on offense, with moves "even God couldn't defend" (or something like this). Was it the dunks, baseline drives and scoops Doc was doing for 10 years? Was it Gervin's fingerroll (wich Wilt used before)?


Invented was probably the wrong word, yes. Though I could, in fact, point to specific moves of his that I never saw another player do before him, what would the point be? You'd just deny it or insist that others have done it before him. This point wasn't part of my main thrust anyway, so I'll concede... 



> Stop living in Fantasy World. Micahel Jordan was one of the greatest (i rank him #3), but he wasn't the player you think he was. And to say that Kobe's *game *doesn't come *close *to Jordan's is wrong. Hell, even by your caleidoscopic view of both players, you grade the difference in 10-15%, so you don't seem to think they are all that far apart, yes?


I never said that Kobe "doesn't come close." I've been very specific in laying out what I feel to be the difference between them in terms of on-the-court impact (at least 10-15% on the average day). I haven't spoken in generalities in an effort to mislead or equivocate. I have provided empirical evidence for every single one of my claims, and to this moment you have provided *absolutely none*. And that's because you can't. The only numbers you've posted have been career numbers which include numerous past-prime years on Jordan's part. You've been quite disingenuous here, because deep down you realize you must be or else Kobe stands no chance and people will see with their own eyes the difference between the two.



> I only think they are closer than that.


Whatever you say, bud. Again, you can "think" or "believe" whatever you want. When one actually looks at the evidence, however, a different picture emerges.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

STOP IT! STOP IT Jordan23Forever! Put the tigers away! Jordan is king! Jordan is the best ever! :worthy:

Kobe isn't close to Jordan! Please stop this madness! This is the most ONE SIDED fight I have ever witnessed!


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

we can use per to say that a prime robinson was 10% greater than hakeem, maybe 20% greater than ewing (and that was the same era). that an early jordan was easily superior to a later (post 91) jordan. magic has only 3 seasons in the top 100 ever. 

ts% is the best measure for scoring efficiency. that's why it's used. period. what matters isn't how many misses. it's how much you score given the opportunities you take to score.

and again, 10-15% is the difference between the best and worst teams. it's an enormous gap. 

and ortg is pretty meaningless. it's highly team dependent.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Robinson was 20% better than Ewing.

Simple fact is that Kobe has to catch Jerry West before you can start talking about him and JOrdan.He has to start being the best player in the NBA too.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

kflo said:


> we can use per to say that a prime robinson was 10% greater than hakeem, maybe 20% greater than ewing (and that was the same era).


Except that it's not only PER, it's *every single objective metric*. Literally every single one. Re-read the posts.

And the only reason that anyone believes that Hakeem was superior to DRob is because of their respective playoff performances, especially head-to-head in '95. 


Unfortunately for you, Jordan was also a *significantly* better playoff performer than Kobe. The gap is even larger there than during the regular season. There is literally no way to look at this comparison which *won't* suggest a 10-15% impact gap at the very least. Except for mere assertion, which is all Kobe fans really have. 



> magic has only 3 seasons in the top 100 ever.


That's because PER undervalues pass-first PG's. Too bad for you (and Kobe fans in general) that Kobe and Jordan are both all-around scoring wings. 



> ts% is the best measure for scoring efficiency. that's why it's used. period. what matters isn't how many misses. it's how much you score given the opportunities you take to score.


No, it's not. It doesn't account for *any* of the negative aspects of taking (and hence missing) more 3-pointers. It only counts the positive (that it's worth 1.5 times as many points). It doesn't look at what missing more 3's does to the chances of garnering offensive rebounds, how it leads to more transition opportunities for opponents, how it affects team cohesiveness and chemistry (more misses from a #1 option = disgruntled teammates who become disinterested in the game), how when taken by a first option (which usually isn't out of a set offense) they do *nothing* to open things up for other teammates by drawing defenders via penetration or post play, how they do nothing in regards to drawing fouls and getting opponents in the penalty, how they let the defense off the hook by taking contested bombs, how it stagnates offenses etc.

The best measure of scoring efficiency is, imo, points per possession (PPP). Each FGA is one posession and each two FTA's are one possession "used" by an offensive player. Here are their respective numbers in this regard from age 26-28 (since it's only fair to compare first option Kobe to first option Jordan):

*Jordan's PPP from age 26-28:* 1.192

*Kobe's PPP from age 26-28:* 1.110


That's a 7.4% difference by itself. The difference in TS% at the same ages is 7.3% (60.8% vs. 56.7%). And this is strictly talking about scoring efficiency, not overall impact (which takes all phases of the game into account). Further, it doesn't account for the ridiculous FT inflation in today's game for perimeter players. We've been through this before, and I know you disagree, but I think it's clear to anyone with eyes that any star perimeter player these days is awarded a ton of FT's. In 2006, you had 6 players above 10 FTA/gm, which is easily a record. It's also no coincidence that virtually every star perimeter player had a career year in terms of either volume or efficiency in 2006, even vets who have been in the league many years. Fact is, guys like you like to use TS% because it's convenient, since it's inflated by the absurd amount of FT's awarded to perimeter players nowadays.


Let's take a look at what Jordan's TS% would have been were he awarded the 10.1 FTA/gm Kobe has been given these last few years instead of the 8.8 FTA/gm he was awarded from age 26-28:


*Jordan's adjusted TS% from age 26-28:* 61.6%

*Kobe's actual TS% from age 26-28:* 56.7%


As you can see, if Jordan were awarded FT's the way virtually every other perimeter star today is (and he undoubtedly would be, since he was more aggressive than all of them save Wade and perhaps Iverson), his TS% would increase to the point where it would be *8.6%* above Kobe's TS% during the same ages. Now let's look at what Kobe's TS% would be if he were awarded Jordan's 8.8 FTA/gm instead of his 10.1 FTA/gm:

*Kobe's TS% with Jordan's # of FTA:* 55.8%

*Jordan's actual TS% from age 26-28:* 60.8%

*Difference: 9%*


9% is pretty close to 10%, no? And again, this is *strictly* talking about scoring efficiency, not volume and not overall impact on games (which includes intangibles, defensive impact, rebounding, passing, game management, basketball IQ etc.).

And I know you'll try to say the usual: that 26-28 year old Jordan wouldn't actually average 10+ FTA in today's game, and that 25-28 year old Kobe would actually average more FTA than Jordan in the late 80's and early 90's; but anyone who watched each of these players at those ages realizes that this is rubbish. They also realize that it's a parade to the FT line for perimeter players nowadays, and it has little to do with Kobe's "skill" in drawing fouls. He's great at it, obviously, as are a few other guys -- but are there over half a dozen guys who are more aggressive and who, under an equal interpretation of the rules, would draw more fouls than a 26-28 year old Jordan? Only kflo and a few others would believe this; no one who actually watched 26-28 year old Jordan extensively would. The facts are in front of you.




> and again, 10-15% is the difference between the best and worst teams. it's an enormous gap.


Too bad for you that we're talking about individual players and not teams. Teams are the sum of their parts, and their efficacy can be greater than that sum depending on team chemistry etc. Individual players' impacts can be evaluated statistically, particularly where similar players (like Kobe and Jordan, as opposed to, say, Kobe and Magic) are concerned. Any impact above and beyond these statistics has to do with defensive impact, game management, basketball IQ, and other intangibles such as leadership and clutch play. And since Jordan has at least a 10% edge in statistical impact as compared to Kobe, and then has advantages of varying sizes in each of these other areas, it is *entirely reasonable* to state that there is a 10-15% difference in terms of their respective impact on games. In fact, it's the only conclusion which comports *at all* with the available evidence.


If you want me to say that Kobe is within 8-10% of Jordan in terms of offensive efficiency, then that's fine -- I'll do so. It really does little to lessen the force of my overall argument. You seem to think that there's not *at least* 10% difference between them statistically, so I'll now repost some of the numbers I've posted previously along with the % above Kobe's numbers that Jordan's numbers in that category are:


Kobe's average ORtg from age 26-28: 113.3 ORtg (*7.3* above league average during that time)

Jordan's average ORtg from age 26-28: 123.7 ORtg (*15.7* above league average) 

*Jordan's advantage:* 9.2% in terms of absolute production and over *twice* (100+%) as good relative to the league 



Kobe's average net O/DRtg from age 26-28: *+5* above league average

Jordan's average net O/DRtg from age 26-28: *+20* above league average

*Jordan's advantage:* *400%* as great as Kobe's



26-28 yr old Jordan vs. Kobe per 40.9 mpg:

34.2 vs. 31.5 pts (*9%* above Kobe)

7.4 vs. 5.6 reb (*32%* above Kobe)
10.5 vs. 8.0 RbR (*31.3%* above Kobe)

7.0 vs. 5.3 ast (*32%* above Kobe)
18.2 vs. 14.6 AsR (*24.7%* above Kobe)

3.0 vs. 1.5 stl (*100%* above Kobe)
.9 vs. .6 blk (*33%* above Kobe)

53.4% vs. 44.9% FG (*19%* above Kobe)
60.8% vs. 56.7% TS (*7.3%* above Kobe; and again, see my explanation above for this "closest" of categories)


Jordan's PER from age 26-28: *31.3* (8.6 PER above 10th place finisher)

Kobe's PER from age 26-28: *25.8* (2.1 PER above 10th place finisher)

*Jordan's advantage:* *21.3%* in terms of PER and *400+%* in terms of PER relative to 10th place finisher (it is important to note that PER itself is pace- and league-average corrected, and is the most valuable aggregate metric -- and Jordan has a 21+% edge there)


Kobe's EFF from age 26-28: *26.6* (*5.1 EFF above league average) 

Jordan's EFF from age 26-28: 34.8 (10.6 EFF above league average)

Jordan's advantage: 30.8% in terms of EFF and 100+% in terms of how far above league average they are


Kobe's average Win Shares (WS) from age 26-28: 34.3

Jordan's average Win Shares (WS) from age 26-28: 58.0

Jordan's advantage: 69.1% 

(and before anyone suggests that a team needs a ton of wins for any one player to generate a high # of Win Shares, let me point out that Jordan had 59 WS in 1989 on a 47-win team; compare that with Kobe's mere 40 WS on a 45-win team and you'll see the disparity more clearly) 


As you can see, there is at least a 10-15% statistical advantage for Jordan. The throw in his edge in terms of defensive impact, leadership, bball IQ, and intangibles, and it's easy to see that there must be at least that same 10-15% difference in terms of impact as players overall.


And again, I'm not even looking at playoff impact, because that would be highly embarrassing for Kobe.





and ortg is pretty meaningless. it's highly team dependent.

Click to expand...

I guess that's why, regardless of the quality of team he was on, Jordan's ORtg was always significantly higher than Kobe's, and significantly higher above the league average than Kobe's. When Jordan was on a poor team, his ORtg eclipsed Kobe's; when he was on a good team, it still eclipsed Kobe's -- hell, even when he was older it eclipsed Kobe's. And when Kobe was on a good team ('00-'04) he never even sniffed Jordan's ORtg, nor was he nearly as far above league average as Jordan was even when MJ was on poor teams.

In 1988, Chicago was 9th out of 23 teams offensively (39th percentile), while the '06 Lakers were 8th out of 30 teams (27th percentile) -- so LA was actually a better team offensively; yet contrary to your implicit hypothesis, Jordan's ORtg was 15 points above the league average while Kobe's was just 8 points above. That's nearly double (100%) for the mathematically-challenged among us (who, not coincidentally, all seem to be Kobe fans). 


Kobe fans: light on evidence, long on bogus conjecture and assumptions. 


Kobe Bryant: a man for whom a thousand excuses are made, none of which hold up under even the slightest bit of scrutiny.*


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

There are several players I'd take over Kobe that are active right now in the league: Nash, Duncan, LeBron, Nowitzki, KG, and probably Wade as well. Those guys play basketball like it is a team game (AKA the right way). Kobe has no idea what that means. Yeah, he might beat those guys in a one-on-one game, but all the guys listed above make their teams better, which Kobe almost never does any more.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Roscoe Sheed said:


> There are several players I'd take over Kobe that are active right now in the league: Nash, Duncan, LeBron, Nowitzki, KG, and probably Wade as well. *Those guys play basketball like it is a team game (AKA the right way). Kobe has no idea what that means.* Yeah, he might beat those guys in a one-on-one game, but all the guys listed above make their teams better, which Kobe almost never does any more.


After this past month of USA Ball this post of yours looks very foolish. Lets keep this Between Jordan and Kobe shall we.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Kobe Bryant: a man for whom a thousand excuses are made, none of which hold up under even the slightest bit of scrutiny.


Then there should be no debate, right?

yet we're still aren't we?


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

The One said:


> Then there should be no debate, right?
> 
> yet we're still aren't we?


You can't stop people from having opinions; it's a matter of how well-informed those opinions are. I have provided ample evidence for my claims. My initial post was a response to Paulo's absurd claim that they are "virtually identical" as players. I have clearly showed that claim to be in error. My subsequent posts highlighted the degree of separation between them as players in terms of impact.

Again, I have provided ample evidence for every one of my claims. If someone wants to believe otherwise, in the face of all that evidence, then that's on them. I'd hope that most thinking people wouldn't, however. That goes back to what I said about Kobe fanatics, however: all they have is *assertion*. They can provide zero evidence that Kobe is "virtually identical" to Jordan at all.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

The One said:


> After this past month of USA Ball this post of yours looks very foolish. Lets keep this Between Jordan and Kobe shall we.


Well, since he only occassionaly played like an ******* surrounded by the best players in the world in an internaional competition, his entire history of not being able to get along w/ people goes right out the window. I mean, he passed to Lebron and Carmelo for a week, after all.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

because someone's screenname is jordan23forever, that doesn't mean you are mj, or know mj, or are related to mj. don't take it so personally, and maybe you won't be so obnoxious. 

i'm not arguing who is the better player. you create strawmen adversaries and try and slay them as the mighty jordanmaster. get off your horse. i'm questioning your 10-15% difference. 

a 15% difference in play (individually) equates conservatively to about 12 wins (using expected wins), and that's just on offense. that's jordan's presumed advantage over arguably the 2nd best offensive 2 guard ever. it just doesn't pass a sniff test. add another what, 6 games defensively, and we're talking about the 07 lakers being almost a 60 win team with jordan. and it makes the bulls mediocre/low playoff seed with kobe. it's simply not realistic. i'm sure you'll write a discertation in response, but please spare us all. 

now, go back and rewatch the '89 season and provide a list of games they would have lost with the specific plays in question so we can delve further.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Well, since he only occassionaly played like an ******* surrounded by the best players in the world in an internaional competition, his entire history of not being able to get along w/ people goes right out the window. I mean, he passed to Lebron and Carmelo for a week, after all.


he never has and never will win anything!


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jordan23Forever said:


> And again, you -- just like every Kobe groupie -- only have *assertion*. You cannot back up your case that they're "virtually identical" with *any* objective, empirical evidence. What does that say about your claim?


My "claim" is obvious to those who have seen both players on the court: they play similar games; they have similar moves. It's pretty simple, young grasshopper; watch Jordan's fadeaway. The watch Kobe's. Watch Jordan's footwork on the low post. The watch Kobe's. Etc., etc.. There's only one way to see if 2 players play identitical (or close to it) games. You provide nothing but a bunch of stats, often mis-used.

By your standard, one could be comparing Magic Johnson and Steve NAsh (or Jason Kidd and Steve Nash) and you would say that, based on stats, X is whatever to Y. But that wouldn't change the fact that tehir games were not comparable. The opposite with Jordan and Kobe: you can say that one was more effective at age whatever, and more Offensive blah blah at age whatever. That doesn't change the fact that EVERYBODY who has followed basketball will say that Kobe made his game after Jordan. That makes them comparable players game-wise.

And i also like the fact that you keep comparing Kobe to the 26- 28 Michael Jordan, absolutely disregarding the fact that (i) untill he won his first championship he wasn't thought to be all that and (ii) Kobe's having pretty comparable stats (TS%, Rbr, AsR) to the multiple ring winner Michael Jordan who played his championship seasons with a roster that's like 5 times better the scrubs Kobe has to work with.

That's right: check the stats. Jordan was winning championships (the years he reaaly carved his legacy, instead of the ones he was being swept by the Celtics) with comparable stats. And this happened with the one-on-one defensive rule. 

Why aren't you arguing that championship-Jordan had clearly better stats than Kobe?



> But you don't get it: anyone can *say* whatever they want. But when you actually look _beyond_ mere assertion, you realize that the gap between them in terms of impact is sizeable.


You are right: everybody can say whatever they want.
That's what you are doing.
And the fact that you keep avoiding adressing both players games, and resolt (sp?) to bring uo stats (the stats of a certain period in Jordan's career, in fact) speaks volumes.



> First off, it's typical of Kobe fans to point to eFG% and TS%, because it makes Kobe look beter than he actually is. What matters (to a team) is the *number of misses* a player causes. All TS% does is count 3-pointers as worth 1.5 times as much as two-pointers (duh). What it fails to do is make any sort of adjustment for the negative effects of taking too many 3-pointers, and consequently of *missing more shots*.


Please don't call me a Kobe fan.
That being said, what about PPFGA, then?



> Even in terms of your precious TS%, Jordan's average from age 25-28 was 60.8% vs. Kobe's 56.7%, for a difference of 4.1% TS. Iverson's TS% the last 3 seasons has been 53.8%, which is only 2.9% below Kobe's. What were you saying about the relative size of the gap again?


The stats talk is yours, not mine.
And what about Jordna's stats the following years? You know, the years he was winning anything...?



> Two things:
> 
> - You're comparing Joran's *career* numbers to Kobe's numbers through the middle of his prime. Disingenuous for several reasons. Compare them through the same age.
> 
> - I already showed you the *significant* gap between them as rebounder and passers, yet you choose to ignore all of that. Here's a clue: anyone who reads the numbers I put up earlier will have an idea of who was *clearly* the better rebounder and passer. You can't explain that sort of disparity away.


Why would i compare both players at the same age? 
Magic Johnson, at age 20, was the sole rookie to win Finals MVP. Does thet mean he was 100 times better than a 20 year old Michael Jordan?
At age 22, Lebron james lead his team to the Finals. At age 23, Jordan was swept by Bird in the first round. What age has anything to do with this?



> Who ever suggested that Kobe doesn't have better range and is more consistent from deep? But what does that mean, ultimately? Does Kobe get some sort of bonus points because he can hit shots from 25 feet out more consistently than Jordan could? No.


Whatever floats your boat. Am i to drag all the wuotes of sportswriters saying that Kobe is one of the most unstopable offensive forces the game has ever seen? Because, if you remember his 81 pt game, and his ridiculous streak of 40 point games, you KNOW people were saying that about him. And Kobe's capacity of getting hot from long range his a big part of his offensive arsenal. Kobe gets bonus points because in his last 3 years he made more 3 pointers than Jordan in how many years as a Bull?

Off course, you can say that 3pointers don't matter. But then don't come talking about Jordan against Portland....



> Again, you're comparing Jordan's career numbers -- a career which stretched through age 40, mind you -- to Kobe's numbers through the middle of his prime. A typical Kobe fan tactic. How is it "not close," you ask? Oh, I don't know - maybe you should go back and *read the previous few posts of mine again*. Better yet, let me show you some of their numbers again. If you're so dense that you'll ask me again how it's not close after this, then go back to school:


Who says?
Jordan's best scoring year: 37.1. Kobe's: 35.4. Not career. SEASON.
Jordan had one fluke year of 21Aratio. The best he got besides that was 17. Wich Kobe got multiple times.
Again, i find interesting that you say i'm consoidering career years, and you still keep on ignoring 30's Jordan stats.
How come you want to only discuss stats and refuse to look at the wide picture, stats-related?



> *Jordan from age 21-28:*
> 
> 33.0 pts
> 6.4 reb (9.4 RbR)
> ...


Again with the age business? Do you think what the 28-year old Jordan accomplished by that time would give him consideration for GOAT?
What about the rest of his career (and i'm not even counting his Wizards years)



> I won't even begin to look at their respective playoff numbers, because that would be embarrassing for Kobe. *Embarrassing*. Let's also overlook the fact that Kobe is playing .7 more mpg than Jordan during this span (39.9 mpg vs. 39.2 mpg), so the straight stat comparison assuming equal mpg would be like so:


Embarassing to who? Kobe had playoff success playing the second-fiddle role. And he excelled on that. When he was left without a team, his playoff numbers took a dip. Who would have guessed?



> *Jordan*
> 
> 33.6 pts
> 6.5 reb
> ...


You are out of your mind if you thing a +5.5ppg, +0.6epg, 0.8apg, +1.2spg and +0.5 blocks is "obliterating" anything... I'm too lazy to look it up, but i could bet the Laker Shaq's stats on the Finals would obliterate Jordan's, no? 



> No, you just seem to not be aware of the sizeable gap in production between the two through the same ages -- both absolute production and production relative to their respective leagues. Take a look above again if you're confused; pay particular attention to the Net O/DRtg compared to league average, the PER/EFF finishes and how far above league average they were, Win Share finishes, and their efficiency as compared to the league. Get your eyes checked.
> 
> Jordan's PER through age 28 was 30.2, as you can see above. Kobe has only had *one season* which has come within even *10%* of that (2006).





> More Paulo obfuscation and sophistry. By "more capable," I mean that the incidence of high-rebounding and high-assist games shows that he was capable of providing whatever his team needed on any given night to a greater degree than Kobe is. This is indisputable. If you needed help on the boards, and needed a guy to get you 13+ rebounds, you'd have to be insane to look to Kobe to do it over Jordan in light of the numbers posted earlier.


Are you trying to do the "Carmelo"?



> Seriously Paulo, do you have reading comprehension issues?


Seriously, dude, do you know what Rebound Rate is?



> Jordan's didn't, so why would Kobe's? Jordan's best statistical years came in the 80's and during the first championship season. Production declines with age; further, when you have a solid team around you others will be able to pick up the slack and produce, and the team won't be so dependent on you. In some cases efficiency might increase (which is usually offset by aging), but volume will decrease, resulting in no net gain as far as aggregate statistical metrics go.


So, what you are saying is that when Jordan started winning, his stats took a dip. 
Since you seem so in love with stats, i MUST ask this question:
- Jordan's last championship year (1998), when he was the MVP and 1st teamer on BOTH teams, he had a .473Efg%, .533TS%, 10.6AsR, 8.5RbR and 25.2 PER. Kobe, last season, had a ,502eFG%, .580TS%, 14.1AsR, 8.2RbR and 26.1 PER. 

*That means Kobe, at age 28, is better than Jordan at age 34, no? Cause all the stats prove it.* And the year before that, Kobe's PER was also higher! Blyme! HAve we discovered that the Michael Jordan of his 2 last championships in INFERIOR to todays' Kobe Bryant?

CAuse that's where your talk is leading...



> Take a look at the above numbers again. Then go back and look at the numbers in the previous posts. Then tell me how there is anything *but* at least a 10% difference strictly in numbers there. Then add in Jordan's defensive edge and edge in intangibles and leadership and explain to me how that doesn't *increase* the edge he already has in production to make the gap between the two as *overall players* (i.e., in terms of impact on games) at least 10-15%. Explain that to me.


Untill you start dissecting both players' games and keep grasping at straws with stats, i am inclined to agree with you: pre-championship Jordan was better than Kobe; they were comparable in the midst of Jordan's multiple championships; Kobe was better than Jordan when he won his last 2 championships.



> Go grab a calculator and check the percentage differences between the numbers above. Jordan dominated the league in a way that Kobe has only *approached* for a single season in his career -- and even that season (2006) wouldn't crack Jordan's top 7 seasons overall.


Stats, stats, stats... Jordan dominated the league my foot. He was putting up incredible stats and the Bulls kept losing for severall years. Untill Pippen and Grant developed. You want guys dominating the league from early on? Think about guys leading their teams to the Finals in their second (Hakeem, Duncan) or third (Shaq) year. Jordan reigned in an era where there was no Magic, no Bird, no Pistons. Joran put up amazing numbers, it's true, but that didn't cut it untill he found help. That's what's happening with Kobe. Who, by the way, is playing in a strong Western Conference.



> You're right -- it was magic that they went from throwing up a combined 12 points on 4-27 shooting in game 7 of the 1990 Conference Finals to becoming the solid, steady players we now remember them as. WHatever you say...
> 
> 
> 
> How so? Once a player becomes the player they are, it will always be with them. That Grant and Pippen had some measure of success without Jordan matters little when speaking about how he helped mold them and push them in their formative years as NBA players.


I just find it curious that the player Jordan "molded" once (and still with the Bulls) refused to enter a game when he didn't have the final play call up his way. Nice mentoring...



> This gets better and better. :lol: Bird undoubtedly had one of the best seasons in history (30/9/6/53% FG/61% TS), but Jordan's was better. Bird's Celts only won 7 more games despite having a vastly superior supporting cast, and Bird's 4 extra rebounds are not enough to offset Jordan's 5 extra ppg on equal efficiency, double the steals and blocks, and his DPOY and overall defensive impact.


:lol: Yeah, the fact that EVENTHOUGH Bird had another great players around him OBVIOUSLY didn't affect his stats. Maybe if McHale and Parish weren't around he could have 5-6 more ppg, 2-3 more rpg. A guy putting uo those stats in a stacked team? Are you kidding me?



> Fair enough. Let's ignore the entire MVP tangent and focus on production, then. Fine with me.


Cool.



> We're all wrong sometimes, Paulo; you're wrong here. I hope you realize that literally 95% of the people who read the preceding posts will realize that there is a substantial difference between Jordan and Kobe in terms of production and impact.


Posters' views are NOt the best way to measure things. Whe Kobe got 81, there was a poll here about who was the best player in the league. Ninety-whatever percent of voters named Kobe. A month (or more) later, it was Lebron. Time after, it was Duncan again...



> Always amusing when a Laker fan brings comments like these up. Magic has repeatedly stated, even during his playing days, that Jordan was better than him. Somehow I think you'll take issue with that, however. I wonder what the difference between these two cases is...


Lonk, please...
And about players' opinions, don't you find interesting that Jordan himself said something like "i would love to be able to play against Jerry West. So to prove who was better" or something like that?
Hmmm... If Jordan wasn't sure he was better than Jerry West and since 95% of the people reading these posts won't put Jerry West in the All-Time Top 5, where does that leave Jordan?
And if you credit whatever Magic has said about Jordan, do you credit what Lebron, Amare and Dirk have said about Kobe?




> I wouldn't (and don't) expect either of them to win a championship with supporting casts of that quality. I look at relative success in similar situations along with individual play. And I see Jordan taking a team not much better than these Lakers to game 6 of the conference finals in '89, playing the eventual champions tougher than any other team that postseason.


Ah, but Jordan didn't o it with the players i mentioned. He did it playing with Pippen, Cartwright, Grant, Vincent and others. The players i named were part of the Bulls that got swept in the first round by Boston (if i'm not mistaken), 



> Yeah, vastly more talented. Their second best player, Larry Nance, missed 55 games that year, and Harper, their third or fourth best player (23/5/5 the season prior) missed 25 games -- and they still were above .500 on the season despite this. They had swept Chicago 4-0 that season, and literally *no one* picked the Bulls to win that series; there's a reason for that.


Interesting to note for anyone familiar with the Cleveland Cavaliers of the time: they had ONE player in the starting unit who could defend. I've always found it funnt when people talked about Jordan consistently going off against the Cavs: Price? Harper? Ehlo? Defending Michael freaking Jordan? :lol: 



> You need to do your research, then, because even if Smith hit that layup, it would have resulted in a game 7, not a Knicks series victory then and there. And your slip is showing again if you think that Worthy's 3 extra points and 2 assists (what his averages were down in that series as compared to the rest of the playoffs that year) were going to change the outcome of that series. Maybe you were watching a different series, but the one I saw had Jordan *thoroughly* outplaying Magic, Pippen playing beautiful all-around ball, Paxson shooting around 90% from the field, and the Lakers garnering their sole victory on a lucky shot by Perkins at the buzzer.


I was adressing the woulda/shoulda part of your post. And giving examples. I could give many more: if Bird didn't break his back and McHale stayed healthy, would the Bulls have won any championship untill they retired? If Malone wasn't injured in the Finals against the Pistons... etc., etc.



> Again, "close" is relative. If you wear purple-and-gold glasses, you believe that they're virtually equal as players. If you're a normal individual who both watched both players in their prime and has looked at all the *objective* evidence, you realize that there's about a 10-15% difference in terms of impact on the average day. Not "Kobe's absolute best game vs. Jordan's average game," but on both of their average days.


Again, you didn't watch Michael Jordan. That's why you keep going back and forth with stats, googling any kind of information you think it's relevant. There's nothing wrong with it: i must have read almost all about Wilt Chamberlain that's available on net. I've seen all his footage available on youtube. Still, i have never watched him play. I sympathise with you, here.



> Invented was probably the wrong word, yes. Though I could, in fact, point to specific moves of his that I never saw another player do before him, what would the point be? You'd just deny it or insist that others have done it before him. This point wasn't part of my main thrust anyway, so I'll concede...


But this is a major aspect on your speech, young buck. Your talk is the same talk as any other Jordan fan-boy around: he invented this and that, he made basketball what he is today, he was a man around boys, whatever. It's alwasy the usual crap. Nice try back-peddaling, but it won't fly. You keep talking about "Kobe fans" and "purple and gold glasses", but you, my friend, are the one who's star-strucked with a player. and i'm not even adressing your Forum name, wich shows a bit where you are coming from. 

You see, there are guys around this forum that know much more than i do about the NBA, and have been watching ball longer that i have been, and i value their opinions. I like to learn with the ones who know more than i do.

You have done nothing like that. You keep bringing up stats, without adressing both players games. And the same stats that, by your way of looking at things, prove that last years' Kobe Bryant was better than Michael Jordan when he was winning 2 championships and being named for both All-Nba teams.

It's all the same. Over and over again. Since the day i joined this site there's alwasy a fanatic Jordan fan-boy who goes way out to prove Michael was God. 

Patches, who is a very interesting poster, commented in Jordan's hands and explosivnes. And he was right. You just spew out stats. 



> I never said that Kobe "doesn't come close." I've been very specific in laying out what I feel to be the difference between them in terms of on-the-court impact (at least 10-15% on the average day). I haven't spoken in generalities in an effort to mislead or equivocate. I have provided empirical evidence for every single one of my claims, and to this moment you have provided *absolutely none*. And that's because you can't. The only numbers you've posted have been career numbers which include numerous past-prime years on Jordan's part. You've been quite disingenuous here, because deep down you realize you must be or else Kobe stands no chance and people will see with their own eyes the difference between the two.


So you know what "empirical evidence" is?



> Whatever you say, bud. Again, you can "think" or "believe" whatever you want. When one actually looks at the evidence, however, a different picture emerges.


Truth is in the eye of the beholder. And you have this "vision" of Michael Jordan that you try (and damned hard, i must say) to explain by stats. To each it's own, i guess.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

kflo said:


> because someone's screenname is jordan23forever, that doesn't mean you are mj, or know mj, or are related to mj. don't take it so personally, and maybe you won't be so obnoxious.


I'm sorry if you perceive, you know, *evidence* as obnoxiousness. But I tire of people simply *saying* things without any empirical backing whatsoever.



> i'm not arguing who is the better player. you create strawmen adversaries and try and slay them as the mighty jordanmaster. get off your horse. i'm questioning your 10-15% difference.


You can "question" things all you like, but the numbers are right there in front of you. There is a 10-15% difference statistically at a minimum, and then Jordan has defensive and intangible edges as well (which are more difficult to quantify, but which exist). 

So how about you explain to me how there's *not* a 10-15% difference in terms of impact? Your "smell test" is a cute way of saying "this is my opinion, and I will not and cannot adduce any evidence to buttress that opinion." Like I said earlier: Kobe fans are long on opinion, short on evidence. 



> a 15% difference in play (individually) equates conservatively to about 12 wins (using expected wins), and that's just on offense


Where'd you get this formula from? 



> that's jordan's presumed advantage over arguably the 2nd best offensive 2 guard ever. it just doesn't pass a sniff test.


I love how you use the word "presumed" as if I didn't just post reams of numbers which essentially *prove* that there is _at least_ a 10% advantage in terms of impact in favor of Jordan, even ignoring defensive impact and intangibles.




> add another what, 6 games defensively, and we're talking about the 07 lakers being almost a 60 win team with jordan. and it makes the bulls mediocre/low playoff seed with kobe. it's simply not realistic. i'm sure you'll write a discertation in response, but please spare us all.


I actually believe that prime Jordan would add 6-10 wins to the current Lakers, not nearly 20. I'm not sure where you're getting this "expected win" stuff from (the only place I've seen it applied is to *team* wins, not individual production/impact. 


As for "sparing" you, no, I won't. In fact, I'd like you to produce a *single aggregate metric* which shows that Kobe is within 10% of Jordan. A single one. You won't be able to do so, and that's because -- like so many Kobe fans -- you overrate him. You're talking about a player who has never finished top 2 in PER *once* and comparing him to a man who finished first in *7 conseuctive seasons* (and very nearly 8). All I'd ask of anyone who's sitting there reading your nonsense is that they go back and re-read my posts on the last few pages to get an idea of the disparity between the two players. Like I said at the outset, it's very easy to "say" whatever you want -- proving it is the hard part.


Come off it, please.


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## JT3000 (Nov 3, 2004)

Jordan would school Kobe. Why are they even compared? Lunacy.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

i assumed a 33% impact on total offensive efficiency for a dominant offensive player. if we increase the lakers scoring by 15%*33%*40mpg/48mpg, and apply that to the expected wins formula, the lakers expected wins go from 41 to 53. 33% arguably being on the low side. 

now, you can "prove" all you wish with per and ortg differences, but you need to also defend the ultimate impact of your statement. a 15% difference is huge. manifested in a huge overall impact in team performance.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

Think this...

It would take me several days to even make a decision on who I would rather build a team around when it comes to Kobe Bryant and Charles Barkely in their primes..
You get Kobe a 30/5/5 perimeter/jump shooting player in today's league where perimeter players are protected a lot, or Charles Barkley a 26/12/5 inside/outside player. Or Karl Malone for that matter.... 

I would not even pick Kobe ahead of players like David Robinson or Patrick Ewing, Shaq and of course no way near above Hakeem.
Nor small forwards like Erving, Pippen etc... and of course Larry Bird.



And I'd pick Jordan ahead of all of them, minus Hakeem and Bird... maybe Shaq... who would be close.. but not ahead of Jordan.


So why are we talking about putting Kobe ahead of Jordan?

Jordan is the player Kobe have based his game at..... and outside of shooting 3 pointers... Jordan has a clear advantage in EVERY aspect and then some.


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

The One said:


> After this past month of USA Ball this post of yours looks very foolish. Lets keep this Between Jordan and Kobe shall we.


It is one thing to do it when on a team with bonafide superstars. Will Kobe be able to play like somewhat of a team player on his actual NBA team? Highly unlikely. I mean, people act like he has an awful team. Look at Phoenix before Nash got there- they won something like 30 games the season before. Meaning that the Suns really aren't as stacked as some people think. It takes a guy like Nash that has an unselfish mentality to up the games of his teammates. I mean, what kind of a player was Raja Bell before he joined the Suns? Or Diaw?


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Roscoe Sheed said:


> It is one thing to do it when on a team with bonafide superstars. Will Kobe be able to play like somewhat of a team player on his actual NBA team? Highly unlikely. I mean, people act like he has an awful team. Look at Phoenix before Nash got there- they won something like 30 games the season before*. Meaning that the Suns really aren't as stacked as some people think. It takes a guy like Nash that has an unselfish mentality to up the games of his teammates. I mean, what kind of a player was Raja Bell before he joined the Suns? Or Diaw?*


 Truth. Diaw was a bust, Bell was a nobody and now they are possible All NBA candidates.(Bell already garnered 1st All NBA Defense) It's all about the willingness of a player to lead and a coach to design the game around the leader. I think that they have the coaching aspect covered. (9 rings is more than enough to qualify you as one of the GOAT coaches) Now they need a leader. Kobe only passes the ball to get it back. You never see him set a pick for a teammate, he only passes the ball and tries to get open to get the ball back. Or he stands in the corner away from the action and lets his team flounder through the possession. He's a terrible teammate with amazing talents but still not as talented as Jordan. PERIOD.


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Exactly I bet you anything during his early grade school days Kobe was a complete ball hog. This quickly changed when scouts and coaches stopped him.


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## Nightmute (Apr 12, 2007)

Jordan23Forever=:rofl2: 

can we deviate from numbers and compare their actual basketball talents, i'd find it much more interesting and persuasive using such an aguement, than loading each post with statistical numbers that have little to do with explaining each players ability to cut to the basket, or their ability to hit a shot. Fact of the matter is numbers do little to explain a players game and that's what is what should be explained. i'm not the one to do this because i haven't seen michael play, but clearly from your infinite knowledge about him you can. So please for the sake of my basketball knowledge enlighten me.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Roscoe Sheed said:


> *1.* It is one thing to do it when on a team with bonafide superstars. Will Kobe be able to play like somewhat of a team player on his actual NBA team? Highly unlikely.
> *2.* I mean, people act like he has an awful team. Look at Phoenix before Nash got there- they won something like 30 games the season before. Meaning that the Suns really aren't as stacked as some people think. It takes a guy like Nash that has an unselfish mentality to up the games of his teammates. I mean, what kind of a player was Raja Bell before he joined the Suns? Or Diaw?


1. I believe your exact words were, "*Kobe has no idea what that means.(Team Game)*" In order take your words literally Kobe has to NOT show any idea of team game during his career. He was quite passive this past month which deflates your remark. Simple as that.

2. You might as well ask why Kobe Bryant isn't a Point Guard since this point of yours only makes sense if Kobe Bryant was one. Do you think that Dwayne Wade would have made a big difference to the Suns that year? Maybe LeBron? Of course not, because The Suns did not need another Shooting Guard or a Small Forward. They needed a ball handler (Point Guard) and got one of the best Point Guards to guide their team.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

IceMan23and3 said:


> *1.* Bell already garnered 1st All NBA Defense
> 
> *2.* Kobe *only passes the ball to get it ba*ck. *You never see him set a pick for a teammate*, he only passes the ball and *tries to get open to get the ball back*.
> 
> *3.* Or he stands in the corner away from the action and *lets his team flounder through the possession.* He's a terrible teammate ...​


1. What does that have to do with anything. Nash has no effect on teamates' defense

2. Well that's the triangle offense for ya. Of course this looks like you are creating a proof of Kobe's selfishness out of thin air. Tell me, you obviously don't think that Reggie Miller was selffish; this play description of yours reeks of Millers game style

3. This is strickly an opinionated observation. You might as well stick a (IMO) next to this.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

More vids to help your voting

Bryant
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Jordan
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OFxXSXGd4hs"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OFxXSXGd4hs" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

IceMan23and3 said:


> Truth. Diaw was a bust, Bell was a nobody and now they are possible All NBA candidates.(Bell already garnered 1st All NBA Defense) It's all about the willingness of a player to lead and a coach to design the game around the leader. I think that they have the coaching aspect covered. (9 rings is more than enough to qualify you as one of the GOAT coaches) Now they need a leader. Kobe only passes the ball to get it back. You never see him set a pick for a teammate, he only passes the ball and tries to get open to get the ball back. Or he stands in the corner away from the action and lets his team flounder through the possession. He's a terrible teammate with amazing talents but still not as talented as Jordan. PERIOD.



Diaw was not a bust, and I was not the only one back then saying he could play. Tony Parker has said in interviews that the Hawks had no idea how to use him. We are talking about the Atlanta Hawks. If you watched a young Diaw, you saw ball handling and passing skills, and solid defense, but you didn't watch. 

You must have not watched NBA basketball from 2003-2005 when Raja Bell was in Utah averaging double digits in scoring, hustling and playing great defense. He didn't show up in Phoenix and all of a sudden explode. 

That is the dumbest thing I have heard in a while. *Kobe never sets a pick for a teammate?* Yikes. You have a great grasp on the game. He actually sets back screens consistently in the mid-post and then pops out on the wing, and also sets high screens all the time off the ball. The Lakers run something called the TRIANGLE. 

Criticize him all you want but realize how sad you look when you are making stuff up out of thin air to push your sorry agenda.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

bballlife said:


> Diaw was not a bust, and I was not the only one back then saying he could play. Tony Parker has said in interviews that the Hawks had no idea how to use him. We are talking about the Atlanta Hawks. If you watched a young Diaw, you saw ball handling and passing skills, and solid defense, but you didn't watch.
> 
> You must have not watched NBA basketball from 2003-2005 when Raja Bell was in Utah averaging double digits in scoring, hustling and playing great defense. He didn't show up in Phoenix and all of a sudden explode.
> 
> ...


Oh how the revisionists re-write history. Bell was seen as one of the worst signings in the offseason. No one thought that he would justify the contract that the Suns signed him to. Everyone thought solely about the pick that was coming to Phoenix in the Johnson trade and Diaw was a throw in to match the salaries. I also don't know where you get the idea that Utah was playing great defense being 26th in the league in OFG% his final season with the Jazz. 

I like the inuendos and insults, I usually have to pay extra for that. What's a triangle? The triangle offense is a passing offense based on swinging the ball in a balance. Every time he sets a screen, he calls for the ball rather than allowing the flow to go to where the natural flow is supposed to be. His team plays better when he doesn't play versus when he does. Odom is more aggressive, so are the post players, and everyone seems to mesh better. 



The One said:


> Well that's the triangle offense for ya. Of course this looks like you are creating a proof of Kobe's selfishness out of thin air. Tell me, you obviously don't think that Reggie Miller was selffish; this play description of yours reeks of Millers game style


If and only if the whole purpose of the offense was to get a deadly sharpshooter open and cause general disarray in the defense, then yeah they are similar. Oh, wait, he didn't pass the ball to get it back, he passed it to make the play. This is stupid, if that's your argument, that is totally weak. He is a ball hog and a bad teammate. He won't win over 50 games this season, nor will he make it out of the first round again.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

IceMan23and3 said:


> *1.* If and only if the whole purpose of the offense was to get a deadly sharpshooter open and *cause general disarray in the defense, then yeah they are similar*.
> *2.* Oh, wait, he didn't pass the ball to get it back, he passed it to make the play.
> 
> *3.* This is stupid, if that's your argument, that is totally weak.
> ...


*1.* agreed 

*2.* Are you saying that Kobe does not want to make a play when he passes the ball out? It is to my understanding that a successfull play is when the ball goes in the hoop. If and when Kobe passes the ball to, (I guess in your mind), pass to himself, he is making a play as long as he makes the shot. Again this is still thin air stuff and strongly opinionated, which is fine: hey, it's an open forum 

*3.* No. You just made an argument out of my post. As you can see I have not given any reason why Kobe is not selfish, I only questioned and corrected your reasons.

*4.* Ahh.....one that sees the future. Well it's an open Forum........


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

IceMan23and3 said:


> Oh how the revisionists re-write history. Bell was seen as one of the worst signings in the offseason. No one thought that he would justify the contract that the Suns signed him to. Everyone thought solely about the pick that was coming to Phoenix in the Johnson trade and Diaw was a throw in to match the salaries. I also don't know where you get the idea that Utah was playing great defense being 26th in the league in OFG% his final season with the Jazz.


bell's PER is almost unchanged from his utah days. his minutes are up because phx doesn't need scoring from the 2 guard spot, and his scoring efficiency is up. otherwise, his production hasn't changed much. 



IceMan23and3 said:


> I like the inuendos and insults, I usually have to pay extra for that. What's a triangle? The triangle offense is a passing offense based on swinging the ball in a balance. Every time he sets a screen, he calls for the ball rather than allowing the flow to go to where the natural flow is supposed to be. His team plays better when he doesn't play versus when he does. Odom is more aggressive, so are the post players, and everyone seems to mesh better.


+/- says something very different.

and the lakers are one of the more efficient offensive teams in the league. 



IceMan23and3 said:


> If and only if the whole purpose of the offense was to get a deadly sharpshooter open and cause general disarray in the defense, then yeah they are similar. Oh, wait, he didn't pass the ball to get it back, he passed it to make the play. This is stupid, if that's your argument, that is totally weak. He is a ball hog and a bad teammate. He won't win over 50 games this season, nor will he make it out of the first round again.


the lakers haven't upgraded in a loaded conference. so you're going out on quite a limb. if he helps them get to 50 wins, it would be a phenomenal accomplishment. and, it'll really come down to defensive improvement.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Nightmute said:


> Jordan23Forever=:rofl2:
> 
> can we deviate from numbers and compare their actual basketball talents, i'd find it much more interesting and persuasive using such an aguement, than loading each post with statistical numbers that have little to do with explaining each players ability to cut to the basket, or their ability to hit a shot.


Wow, a Kobe fan making an appeal to subjectivism? Who'da thunk it? :rofl2: Fact is, analyzing games is nice and all, but it ultimately all boils down to *opinion*, which is all Kobe fans really have.

Things like court awareness and basketball IQ -- Jordan's two biggest advantages over Kobe -- are not easy to demonstrate or explain. Fact is, they're similar players. In his prime ('90-'93) Jordan was more of a slasher than Kobe, though after '91 he was not as much of a slasher as a guy like Wade. He did most of his damage on the wing and with his midrange game, and by 1992 (age 28-29) many of his points came on catch-and-shoots off of off-the-ball movement. He posted up occasionally (progressively more from '91-'93), but it didn't really become the staple of his game until the second three-peat. Believe me when I tell you that I *could* post numerous clips which demonstrate a level of court awareness that Kobe's never shown, but what would it prove? Kobe fans would just insist that he's done similar, or that it doesn't show what it purports to show.

Honestly, virtually anyone who watches each of them in their prime will be able to see the difference between them. Jordan was more athletic, yes, but that is not the only (or even the largest) difference, as some mistakenly assert. Instead of the videos of Jordan that have been posted, try watching him in actual game situations. Start with these:

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=joleroke

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=hoopsencyclopedia

http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=starks23


Pay particular attention to the '90-'93 videos, as this was Jordan's prime imo (age 26-30).


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## Nightmute (Apr 12, 2007)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Wow, a Kobe fan making an appeal to subjectivism? Who'da thunk it? :rofl2: Fact is, analyzing games is nice and all, but it ultimately all boils down to *opinion*, which is all Kobe fans really have.
> 
> Things like court awareness and basketball IQ -- Jordan's two biggest advantages over Kobe -- are not easy to demonstrate or explain. Fact is, they're similar players. In his prime ('90-'93) Jordan was more of a slasher than Kobe, though after '91 he was not as much of a slasher as a guy like Wade. He did most of his damage on the wing and with his midrange game, and by 1992 (age 28-29) many of his points came on catch-and-shoots off of off-the-ball movement. He posted up occasionally (progressively more from '91-'93), but it didn't really become the staple of his game until the second three-peat. Believe me when I tell you that I *could* post numerous clips which demonstrate a level of court awareness that Kobe's never shown, but what would it prove? Kobe fans would just insist that he's done similar, or that it doesn't show what it purports to show.
> 
> ...


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

For those of you who need further evidence of his ball hogging, he shot 43.8% from the field in 2003-04. You know, the Lakers team with Shaq, Malone, and Payton..... He took 18 shots a game. 4 more than Shaq, who shot 58% from the field that year. He's a bigger version of Marbury(a ball hogging gunner) and we will all watch his team flounder and start dropping in wins because as good of a coach that Jackson is, he won't be able to reel in Kobe.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

IceMan23and3 said:


> For those of you who need further evidence of his ball hogging, he shot 43.8% from the field in 2003-04. You know, the Lakers team with Shaq, Malone, and Payton..... He took 18 shots a game. 4 more than Shaq, who shot 58% from the field that year. He's a bigger version of Marbury(a ball hogging gunner) and we will all watch his team flounder and start dropping in wins because as good of a coach that Jackson is, he won't be able to reel in Kobe.


Wrong.
In 2003-2004 Kobe had a 17.2AsR. Better than 2005-2006 and 2006-2007.

Jordan? He didn't crack 17.0 again after 1991-1992.

And, yes, ballhogging CAN be measured (not 100%, off course) in stats:


> Assist Ratio (available since the 1977-78 season in the NBA); the formula is 100*(AST / (FGA + 0.44*FTA + AST + TO)). Assist ratio is an estimate of assists per 100 possessions.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Wrong.
> In 2003-2004 Kobe had a 17.2AsR. Better than 2005-2006 and 2006-2007.
> 
> Jordan? He didn't crack 17.0 again after 1991-1992.
> ...


Was that for the playoffs or regular season? Ballhogging cannot be measured in stats entirely, there will always be a subjective component involved.


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

Everyone who actually watched Kobes Lakers last season would know how they were not that bad at scoring (103.4ppg 5th best), were one of the best efficent teams in the league (46.6fg% 6th) and even with a "ball hoger" managed to rank 6th in assists at 22.56apg. But boy did they stink it up on defense (103.41ppg allowed), were pretty bad at rebounding (41.23rpg 11th), shooting free throws (74.7% 18th), shooting 3's (.353 16th), turned the ball over too much (15.52 9th), committed to many fouls (23.03 11th) and had a guy named smush starting at pg. 
When healthy this team can be unpredicatable, can play like an elite team and can also play like absoulute crap, but too many injuries killed their pace and team chemistry last season. This team still has too many holes, too many inconsistent players and untill they aquire better players they will go no where in the playoffs in a conference that is filled with very good teams.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

f22egl said:


> Was that for the playoffs or regular season? Ballhogging cannot be measured in stats entirely, there will always be a subjective component involved.


Regular season.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: Kobe Bryant vs. Scottie Pippen*



Ras said:


> I think you're overrating Marion just a tad. In the years when Jordan left, do you honestly think they could have won over 50 games like they did with Marion at the helm instead of Pippen? I certainly don't think so. Besides, there's no way you could have your offense run through Marion.


The 1993-94 Eastern Conference was incredibly weak -- Atlanta won 57 games depsite trading Dominique Wilkins after the All-Star Game break and finished first in the East. Cleveland won 47 games despite Brad Daughtery and Larry Nance's careers virtually over by playoff time. Charlotte nearly made the playoffs despite losing Alonzo Mourning and Larry Johnson for significant chunks. 

Chicago got past a depleted Cleveland team (which beat the Bulls three out of four times in the regular season) and lost in the second round of the playoffs. The next season Scottie Pippen continued his meltdowns -- the chair-throwing tirade, calling the media racist, demanding trades -- and the Bulls were 34-31 and seventh in the East before Michael Jordan comes back out of retirement.

Pippen proved he couldn't handle being the focal point of a team without Jordan, so why give him some undeserved credit is silly. Comparing him to Kobe Bryant -- particularly when in Portland Pippen proved in the playoffs he couldn't guard a still-developing Bryant -- is absolutely insane.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: Kobe Bryant vs. Scottie Pippen*



Ras said:


> I think you're overrating Marion just a tad. In the years when Jordan left, do you honestly think they could have won over 50 games like they did with Marion at the helm instead of Pippen? I certainly don't think so. Besides, there's no way you could have your offense run through Marion.


The 1993-94 Eastern Conference was incredibly weak -- Atlanta won 57 games depsite trading Dominique Wilkins after the All-Star Game break and finished first in the East. Cleveland won 47 games despite Brad Daughtery and Larry Nance's careers virtually over by playoff time. Charlotte nearly made the playoffs despite losing Alonzo Mourning and Larry Johnson for significant chunks. 

Chicago got past a depleted Cleveland team (which beat the Bulls three out of four times in the regular season) and lost in the second round of the playoffs. The next season Scottie Pippen continued his meltdowns -- the chair-throwing tirade, calling the media racist, slapping around his girlfriend, demanding trades -- and the Bulls were 34-31 and seventh in the East before Michael Jordan came back out of retirement.

Pippen proved he couldn't handle being the focal point of a team without Jordan, so to give him some undeserved credit is silly. Comparing him to Kobe Bryant -- particularly when in Portland Pippen proved in the playoffs he couldn't guard a still-developing Bryant -- is absolutely insane.


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

I'm not sure citing _off-the-court_ antics is the way to prove Kobe's superiority to Pippen. Since, you know, Kobe has been known to feud with his HOF coach and HOF teammates, demand trades, undergo rape investigations, etc. So yeah, maybe stick to on-the-court stuff.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> For those of you who need further evidence of his ball hogging, he shot 43.8% from the field in 2003-04. You know, the Lakers team with Shaq, Malone, and Payton..... He took 18 shots a game. 4 more than Shaq, who shot 58% from the field that year. He's a bigger version of Marbury(a ball hogging gunner) and we will all watch his team flounder and start dropping in wins because as good of a coach that Jackson is, he won't be able to reel in Kobe.


shooting %'s have nothing to do with ballhogging.

18 shots a game isn't really that much.

so what if it's 4 more than shaq? shaq was a lazy *** who didn't want to work downlow

a while before gary was traded to milwaukee, he lost a step in his game.. he couldn't score with the lakers, heat, or celtics.

karl malone had a strictly defined role on the team, and was obviously not as good on offense as he had been.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> Wrong.
> In 2003-2004 Kobe had a 17.2AsR. Better than 2005-2006 and 2006-2007.
> 
> Jordan? He didn't crack 17.0 again after 1991-1992.
> ...


and Marbury has averaged 26. Who cares? it's a useless stat.

Iverson has averaged more than Kobe in the AsR category. This does NOTHING to refute the fact that Kobe is a BALLHOG.

How about Jordan's win share vs. Kobe's win share? 607 vs 331? Granted, Kobe has played only 78% of the number of games that Jordan has, but should be at around 450-500 to measure up to Jordan... but what the hey?


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

One thing that hasn't been mentioned enough is that in the past two seasons, especially last season- Kobe has fallen in love with shooting jumpers. He doesn't take it to the basket nearly enough any more. At least when Jordan got to an advanced age (34-35), he shot relatively high percentage shots. I mean, you wouldn't see him jacking up 20-25 footers with 3 guys draped all over him like you routinely see Kobe doing now. Jordan would get good post position and work from there. 

That is the major difference right there- Jordan had the best post game of any shooting guard that ever lived- probably better than any guard period (with the possible exception of Magic).


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> and Marbury has averaged 26. Who cares? it's a useless stat.
> 
> Iverson has averaged more than Kobe in the AsR category. This does NOTHING to refute the fact that Kobe is a BALLHOG.
> 
> How about Jordan's win share vs. Kobe's win share? 607 vs 331? Granted, Kobe has played only 78% of the number of games that Jordan has, but should be at around 450-500 to measure up to Jordan... but what the hey?





IceMan23and3 said:


> and Marbury has averaged 26. Who cares? it's a useless stat.
> 
> Iverson has averaged more than Kobe in the AsR category. This does NOTHING to refute the fact that Kobe is a BALLHOG.
> 
> How about Jordan's win share vs. Kobe's win share? 607 vs 331? Granted, Kobe has played only 78% of the number of games that Jordan has, but should be at around 450-500 to measure up to Jordan... but what the hey?


I guess you don't get it that Kobes lead Laker teams have sucked compared to Jordans Bulls. Defensively the Kobes Laker's have sucked. Jordan had teammates that played defense, rebounded well and shot the hell out of the ball when he actually passed (yes Jordan was a ball hog also). Not too mention the numerous games a fat lazy Oneal, an injured Malone, injured Fox and other players missed that season, Kobe carried the load that 2003-2004 season and therefor took more shots. For sakes Malone and Fox both missed more then 40 regular season games, Shaq missed around 15 if I could remember and had those lingering toe problems. Malone was coming off his worst season statistically since his rookie year. Gary Payton took 12.5 shots per game that season playing 2minutes less then Shaq and 3minutes less then Kobe, he played all 82 games, oh my he almost took as many shots as Shaq at 47% what a ball hog :azdaja: !


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

Roscoe Sheed said:


> One thing that hasn't been mentioned enough is that in the past two seasons, especially last season- Kobe has fallen in love with shooting jumpers. He doesn't take it to the basket nearly enough any more. At least when Jordan got to an advanced age (34-35), he shot relatively high percentage shots. I mean, you wouldn't see him jacking up 20-25 footers with 3 guys draped all over him like you routinely see Kobe doing now. Jordan would get good post position and work from there.
> 
> That is the major difference right there- Jordan had the best post game of any shooting guard that ever lived- probably better than any guard period (with the possible exception of Magic).


That's nice and all but here's the problem with this, Jordan age 34 shot .465fg% .2383pt% in 97-98, and didn't play again untilll he was 38 2001-2002 where he shot .416fg% .189 3pt%


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> For those of you who need further evidence of his ball hogging, he shot 43.8% from the field in 2003-04. You know, the Lakers team with Shaq, Malone, and Payton..... He took 18 shots a game. 4 more than Shaq, who shot 58% from the field that year. He's a bigger version of Marbury(a ball hogging gunner) and we will all watch his team flounder and start dropping in wins because as good of a coach that Jackson is, he won't be able to reel in Kobe.


But how about that 2001-2002 Jordan Wizards season? Jordan took 22.1 shots per game at 41.6fg% .189three point%, there were 14 guys on that team including Jordan and 12 shot the ball at a higher percentage then Jordan did, including Rip Hamilton who managed 20ppg to Jordans 22.9 taking 5 less shots per game.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

Diophantos said:


> I'm not sure citing _off-the-court_ antics is the way to prove Kobe's superiority to Pippen. Since, you know, Kobe has been known to feud with his HOF coach and HOF teammates, demand trades, undergo rape investigations, etc. So yeah, maybe stick to on-the-court stuff.


You're right -- which is why I'm sticking to Scottie Pippen having games where he came up short in the clutch and his other meltdowns where he was asked to be the leader of the team. Kobe Bryant's drama comes more from wanting to be the man; Pippen's is the result of wanting the accolades but not the accountability of being the man.

And anyone who saw these two play and their levels of performances knows there is no way in hell Pippen is in the same league with Bryant. Pippen is more of the caliber of a Shawn Marion, who I would say is a better compliment to Pippen than the repeated comparisons I've heard between Pippen and Lamar Odom (who IMO is not as good as Marion).


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Roscoe Sheed said:


> One thing that hasn't been mentioned enough is that in the past two seasons, especially last season- Kobe has fallen in love with shooting jumpers. He doesn't take it to the basket nearly enough any more. At least when Jordan got to an advanced age (34-35), he shot relatively high percentage shots. I mean, you wouldn't see him jacking up 20-25 footers with 3 guys draped all over him like you routinely see Kobe doing now. Jordan would get good post position and work from there.
> 
> That is the major difference right there- Jordan had the best post game of any shooting guard that ever lived- probably better than any guard period (with the possible exception of Magic).


kobe's scoring efficiency is comparable to what jordan's was for 5 of his 6 title seasons.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Undefeated82 said:


> That's nice and all but here's the problem with this, Jordan age 34 shot .465fg% .2383pt% in 97-98, and didn't play again untilll he was 38 2001-2002 where he shot .416fg% .189 3pt%


Umm, Jordan was virtually 35 in 1998. He started the season at 34 years and 9 months of age, and turned 35 prior to the All-Star break. Secondly, he played that entire season with a severed tendon on the index finger of his shooting hand (well documented), which resulted in poor shooting for the first quarter/third of the season until he adjusted his form (I think he shot ~43% the first 20 games of so and about 47-48% the rest of the way; you can tell this is the case because even his FT shooting was poor, around 68%, through the first 20 games or so).


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

kflo said:


> kobe's scoring efficiency is comparable to what jordan's was for 5 of his 6 title seasons.


do you actually watch the games or do you just rely on stats? Jordan took far fewer bad shots than Kobe and these stats extrapolated with 3-pointers can obscure many things- point is that when you take inside shots or go to the basket- you are helping your team a lot more than jacking up 25 footers over a double or triple team- why not pass once in a while or actually attack the basket?


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## Krstic All-Star (Mar 9, 2005)

Until Kobe starts winning as the dominant player on his team, the question isn't even worth asking.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

IceMan23and3 said:


> and Marbury has averaged 26. Who cares? it's a useless stat.


I guess assists per game is also an useless stat, considering the > the AsR, the > the apg.



> Iverson has averaged more than Kobe in the AsR category. This does NOTHING to refute the fact that Kobe is a BALLHOG.


I can't refeute the irrefutable.
Kobe is a ballhog. So was Jordan.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

How many of you that are arguing the Kobe is > or = Jordan are under 22? That would mean that you have only seen the fadeaway Jordan in his mid 30's and 40's and not the Spike Lee asking "Is it the shoes?" You haven't seen him make Magic shake his head in disbelief. If you were born after he was drafted, you really don't know what Jordan could do on the court. If you've seen Jordan play in the late 80s and early 90s, you know what I am talking about. Kobe has never made me go wow like Jordan has. Don't get me wrong, Kobe has had many of those moments, just not as many as Jordan.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Roscoe Sheed said:


> do you actually watch the games or do you just rely on stats? Jordan took far fewer bad shots than Kobe and these stats extrapolated with 3-pointers can obscure many things- point is that when you take inside shots or go to the basket- you are helping your team a lot more than jacking up 25 footers over a double or triple team- why not pass once in a while or actually attack the basket?


kobe does pass (comparable assist numbers as championship jordan), and he does get to the line (higher absolute rate and era adjusted relative rate than championship jordan). 

and jordan took plenty of bad shots.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

IceMan23and3 said:


> How many of you that are arguing the Kobe is > or = Jordan are under 22? That would mean that you have only seen the fadeaway Jordan in his mid 30's and 40's and not the Spike Lee asking "Is it the shoes?" You haven't seen him make Magic shake his head in disbelief. If you were born after he was drafted, you really don't know what Jordan could do on the court. If you've seen Jordan play in the late 80s and early 90s, you know what I am talking about. Kobe has never made me go wow like Jordan has. Don't get me wrong, Kobe has had many of those moments, just not as many as Jordan.


i remember jordan well as a collegiate freshman. 

but i'm not arguing kobe >= jordan.

and he did make you go wow more, in part because he was more athletic, and in part because the game was more wide open when he came into the league. and because he was a rarer sight at the time and came first.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

IceMan23and3 said:


> How many of you that are arguing the Kobe is > or = Jordan are under 22? That would mean that you have only seen the fadeaway Jordan in his mid 30's and 40's and not the Spike Lee asking "Is it the shoes?" You haven't seen him make Magic shake his head in disbelief. If you were born after he was drafted, you really don't know what Jordan could do on the court. If you've seen Jordan play in the late 80s and early 90s, you know what I am talking about. Kobe has never made me go wow like Jordan has. Don't get me wrong, Kobe has had many of those moments, just not as many as Jordan.


i remember jordan well as a collegiate freshman. 

but i'm not arguing kobe >= jordan.

and he did make you go wow more, in part because he was more athletic, and in part because the game was more wide open when he came into the league. and because he was a rarer sight at the time and came first.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

WhoDaBest23 said:


> In my eyes, Jordan's the best player to ever play the game. Kobe's the closest thing we've ever seen to Jordan, but he just can't live up to what he's been able to do. He's just a notch below. The mentality, court presence, the defense to me is unmatched. Chances are Kobe will never surpass what Jordan has meant to the sport.



Agreement.

Kobe and Wade are my two favorite players in the game today, because parts of their game reminds me of MJ's.

But, it'll be damn near impossible for Kobe to catch up to MJ, much less find himself in his rearview window. Kobe's in his prime, having been in the game for 11 years. I don't think he'll get much better than he is now, at least physically. When his physical skills start to detoriorate, as happens to every athlete, will his mental skills be able to compensate like MJ's did?

I think one main thing that separates MJ and Kobe is MJ wanted to win, and win all the time, whereas I feel Kobe just wants to be considered the best of all time. See, MJ let the G.O.A.T. label come to him, while Kobe's chasing it.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

Basel57 said:


> I think he was just trying to point out that if Jordan played with Shaq, he would have played second fiddle to him.


And he'd be wrong. MJ played second to no one.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Air Jordan 23 said:


> I think one main thing that separates MJ and Kobe is MJ wanted to win, and win all the time, whereas I feel Kobe just wants to be considered the best of all time. See, MJ let the G.O.A.T. label come to him, while Kobe's chasing it.


I think thats a misconception...nothing more. If Kobe really wants personal accolades from coming through, he doesnt have to whine in public crying for help, like he did a couple of months ago. He'll be happy to suit up the P&G, lead the league in scoring and be happy with it.


I think Kobe has showed a lot of passion about winning. He made sacrifices in the past to put winning before personal achievement. From time to time, Kobe has shown that he is willing and can effectively help his team in all aspects or area in the hardwood to help them win.


Kobe has become the team's initiator on offense, their best defender and obviosuly the best scoring option. 


Not to knock MJ here, but from a revisionist's point of view, MJ has always been Chicago's best scorer and 2nd best defender. I dont think, MJ has ever been Chicago's best playmaker,defender and scorer at the same time like Kobe.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Air Jordan 23 said:


> And he'd be wrong. MJ played second to no one.


And this is just additional testament to Kobe's willingnness to win. Kobe bowed down, while MJ like you said would played second to no one.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

jordan set out to win scoring titles as well as win. they were important to him. we've painted a picture of jordan as this flawless individual who put team ahead of everything all the time.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> My point is that Jordan would have been second fiddle to Shaq. I'll take it a step further, EVERY PERIMETER player in NBA history would have been second banana to Shaq.



LOL, yeah right.

I guarantee you Shaq would have deferred to MJ. Hell, when the Bulls swept Orlando in 1996, Shaq, who has a Superman tattoo on his arm, said he was Superboy and MJ was Superman. Shaq has always been respectful of MJ's position, even saying in his rookie year that he could tell his grandkids he played against MJ.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> Not to knock MJ here, but from a revisionist's point of view, MJ has always been Chicago's best scorer and 2nd best defender. I dont think, MJ has ever been Chicago's best playmaker,defender and scorer at the same time like Kobe.


he certainly was early in his career.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Air Jordan 23 said:


> LOL, yeah right.
> 
> I guarantee you Shaq would have deferred to MJ. Hell, when the Bulls swept Orlando in 1996, Shaq, who has a Superman tattoo on his arm, said he was Superboy and MJ was Superman. Shaq has always been respectful of MJ's position, even saying in his rookie year that he could tell his grandkids he played against MJ.


if a rookie jordan was paired with dominant, prime shaq, it's a different situation.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Air Jordan 23 said:


> LOL, yeah right.
> 
> I guarantee you Shaq would have deferred to MJ. Hell, when the Bulls swept Orlando in 1996, Shaq, who has a Superman tattoo on his arm, said he was Superboy and MJ was Superman. Shaq has always been respectful of MJ's position, even saying in his rookie year that he could tell his grandkids he played against MJ.


C'mon now.


Lets be serious here...of course Shaq would say all of that. Can you imagine a rookie mouthing off the greatest player of all time? Wouldnt be too smart, dont you think?


Its the same thing you hear from guys like Lebron or Melo when they praise Kobe whenever they had a chance, im sure some of it is sincerity but I can guarantee that another part of it is just being diplomatic.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

kflo said:


> he certainly was early in his career.


Doubt that it actually produced championship(s)


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> All I know is, MJ retired the first time and the Bulls barely skipped a beat, and almost went on to the Eastern Conference Finals in 94.
> 
> When you lose the greatest player of all time, isn't your team supposed to sink like a rock?



Almost don't mean a damn thing, do it? Did they win? 

No.

And what MJ haters tend to overlook is--what happened to the Bulls the next season, before MJ came out of retirement?

They were almost out of playoff contention, that's what. MJ came back and they went 13-4 to end the season and make the playoffs.

Only difference between the 1994 Bulls and the 1995 Bulls before MJ came back was the loss of Horace Grant to free agency.

By that logic, I guess Grant was the main reason the Bulls overachieved in 1994.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

kflo said:


> jordan set out to win scoring titles as well as win. they were important to him. we've painted a picture of jordan as this flawless individual who put team ahead of everything all the time.


Scoring title, MVP award, NBA Trophy, media darling...

Who can argue with that kind of resume?... Jordan was and still is flawless by NBA standards.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Wow, telling me what I have and haven't seen, huh? Impressive, Kreskin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Great post, J23F. Only thing I'd correct is that Cleveland actually swept the Bulls in the regular season 6-0 in 1989. Back then, division rivals played each other six times, so that makes what the Bulls did in the 1989 playoffs that much more impressive to me.

LOL, I hate coming in on a good discussion all late.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

*Re: Kobe Bryant vs. Michael Jordan*



Najee said:


> How come a player who is not even the best player in his generation (Kobe Bryant) is compared constantly with someone who is considered the greatest player ever in the NBA (Michael Jordan)? Just that premise alone makes this a silly comparison.



And therein lies the question.

I have no doubts that Kobe is the best in the game today, personally. However, it's not a unanimous vote on that by fans or the media.

MJ, by and large is considered the best ever. It's not 100%, but it's damn near close.

So I'm feelin' you on that--how could one not universally thought of as the best today be considered at the same level or higher than one who is thought of as the best there ever was?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Air Jordan 23 said:


> Almost don't mean a damn thing, do it? Did they win?
> 
> No.
> 
> ...


no, but the absence of a very good pf was certainly a loss. and it showed in the bulls getting knocked out in the playoffs in the 2nd round, with jordan playing his pretty typical game.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> I love it when people bring the fact that Pippen carried the Chicago Bulls to the Conference Finals with Pete Myers replacing Michael Jordan. It stresses the fact that Jordan wasn't all that.



I love it when people get that all wrong.

Pippen DID NOT carry the Bulls to the Conference Finals.

I repeat--Pippen DID NOT carry the Bulls to the Conference Finals.

They made it to the Semifinals.

Swear to God, how the hell do people keep on spouting that lie?


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

*Re: C'mon, Kobe Bryant is better than Scottie Pippen*



Najee said:


> I'm not exactly in the Kobe Bryant Fan Club, but there is no way in hell I would take Scottie Pippen over him. Pippen was a good to All-Star-caliber player, while Bryant is typically anywhere from perennial all-star to one of the five best players in the league.
> 
> Also, some facts need to be considered:
> 
> ...


Thanks, Najee. Beat me to it, I see.:biggrin: 

And great points about Scottie and his leadership.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

Jordan23Forever said:


> It wasn't the conference finals, it was the semis. And they beat a depleted Cavs team whose best player was Mark Price, and who were missing their best/second best player (Daugherty, 17/10) and Williams (14/8). If the Cavs are at full strength, there's a legit chance that the Bulls don't get past the first round, seeing as how Cleveland won the season series 3-1 that year.
> 
> And it's always amusing how people compare the '94 squad to the '93 squad and not the 67-win '92 Bulls, despite the fact that Pippen, Jordan, and Jackson are all on record as saying that they were sluggish that year due to the Dream Team experience that Summer. Interesting.



Bingo.:cheers:


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

kflo said:


> kobe does pass (comparable assist numbers as championship jordan), and he does get to the line (higher absolute rate and era adjusted relative rate than championship jordan).
> 
> and jordan took plenty of bad shots.


Jordan shot over 50% in six of the seasons in which he played

Kobe HAS NEVER SHOT OVER 50% IN A SINGLE SEASON


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Roscoe Sheed said:


> Jordan shot over 50% in six of the seasons in which he played
> 
> Kobe HAS NEVER SHOT OVER 50% IN A SINGLE SEASON


How many seasons was Micheal in the league?

How many has Kobe?

I believe the difference is about six seasons so........:biggrin:

Anyways I know you posted this to say make a comparison between shoot% and ...balhogging (bad shots). If kobe shot under 50% that means he's not a 50% shooter. Nothing else. If you want to rate ball hoggin then you will have to have Kobe's shot attempts verses team shot attemps and also Kobe with-ball time versus teamates with-ball time. Even then the conclusion would be subjective because it's only ballhogging if the coach and teamates consider it ball hogging. If the team gave him the green light to have the ball (like last year) then there is nothing we could say about it.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Roscoe Sheed said:


> Jordan shot over 50% in six of the seasons in which he played
> 
> Kobe HAS NEVER SHOT OVER 50% IN A SINGLE SEASON


ts% is simply a much more relevant # than fg%.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

I'm getting confused with all the Jordan 23's in here. can't we have a Jordan 42 or whatever number he wore in his career


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

kflo said:


> ts% is simply a much more relevant # than fg%.


why is that exactly? I think the 3-pointer is by and large a bad shot to take unless wide open and/or the result of drive and kick out. 

When you break down the offense or post up you force the defense to collapse- resulting in good things for either yourself or your teammates.

Even if you are a great 3-point shooter, you are going to miss quite frequently- usually leading to long rebounds and fast break opportunities for your opponent.


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

the title of this thread reminds me of Darryl Dawkins' famous quote: "When all is said and done, there is nothing left to say or do".


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Roscoe Sheed said:


> why is that exactly? I think the 3-pointer is by and large a bad shot to take unless wide open and/or the result of drive and kick out.
> 
> When you break down the offense or post up you force the defense to collapse- resulting in good things for either yourself or your teammates.
> 
> Even if you are a great 3-point shooter, you are going to miss quite frequently- usually leading to long rebounds and fast break opportunities for your opponent.


The bottom line on 3-point shooting is that you just can't rely on it play to play. Even for the best shooters in the game, it comes and goes, usually in bunches. Looks great when its going in, but if you are relying on it get ready to be disappointed. 23+ feet is just too ****ing far away for even the best shooters to be consistent with it.


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## Nightmute (Apr 12, 2007)

Why do people constanty use FG% as a guage for scoring efficiency. It's been shown time and time again that there are plenty of other stats that better represent scoring efficiency. Whether it be stats such as TS%,eFG%, PPFGA, or PPP. It's frustrating to see incompetant rebudles using FG% as the foundation for there arguement.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> The bottom line on 3-point shooting is that you just can't rely on it play to play. Even for the best shooters in the game, it comes and goes, usually in bunches. Looks great when its going in, but if you are relying on it get ready to be disappointed. 23+ feet is just too ****ing far away for even the best shooters to be consistent with it.


tell that to the Suns..


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Nightmute said:


> Why do people constanty use FG% as a guage for scoring efficiency. It's been shown time and time again that there are plenty of other stats that better represent scoring efficiency. Whether it be stats such as TS%,eFG%, PPFGA, or PPP. It's frustrating to see incompetant *rebudles *using FG% as the foundation for there arguement.


rebuttals. When you're complaining about precision in stats, at least spellcheck it. 

eFG% Jordan has 9 seasons above 50% whereas Kobe barely has 1

Here's their cumulative for the approximate SAME number of games.

<table class="smallText" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="rowHead"><td>Totals</td> <td align="right">Ag</td> <td align="right">G</td> <td align="right">MP</td> <td align="right">FG</td> <td align="right">FGA</td> <td align="right">FG%</td> <td align="right">3P</td> <td align="right">3PA</td> <td align="right">3P%</td> <td align="right">FT</td> <td align="right">FTA</td> <td align="right">FT%</td> <td align="right">TS%</td> <td align="right">ORB</td> <td align="right">DRB</td> <td align="right">TRB</td> <td align="right">AST</td> <td align="right">STL</td> <td align="right">BLK</td> <td align="right">TOV</td> <td align="right">PF</td> <td align="right">PTS</td> <td align="right">PER</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Michael Jordan</td> <td align="right">32</td><td align="right">766</td><td align="right">29600</td><td align="right">9161</td><td align="right">17901</td><td align="right">.512</td><td align="right">414</td><td align="right">1247</td><td align="right">.332</td><td align="right">5753</td><td align="right">6818</td><td align="right">.844</td><td align="right">.586</td><td align="right">1304</td><td align="right">3575</td><td align="right">4879</td><td align="right">4377</td><td align="right">2025</td><td align="right">739</td><td align="right">2238</td><td align="right">2186</td><td align="right">24489</td><td align="right">29.6</td></tr> <tr> <td>Kobe Bryant</td> <td align="right">28</td><td align="right">784</td><td align="right">28379</td><td align="right">6681</td><td align="right">14760</td><td align="right">.453</td><td align="right">936</td><td align="right">2777</td><td align="right">.337</td><td align="right">4998</td><td align="right">5961</td><td align="right">.838</td><td align="right">.555</td><td align="right">953</td><td align="right">3120</td><td align="right">4073</td><td align="right">3561</td><td align="right">1170</td><td align="right">467</td><td align="right">2285</td><td align="right">2111</td><td align="right">19296</td><td align="right">23.5</td></tr> <tr class="rowHead"> <td>Per Game</td> <td align="right">Ag</td> <td align="right">G</td> <td align="right">MP</td> <td align="right">FG</td> <td align="right">FGA</td> <td align="right">FG%</td> <td align="right">3P</td> <td align="right">3PA</td> <td align="right">3P%</td> <td align="right">FT</td> <td align="right">FTA</td> <td align="right">FT%</td> <td align="right">TS%</td> <td align="right">ORB</td> <td align="right">DRB</td> <td align="right">TRB</td> <td align="right">AST</td> <td align="right">STL</td> <td align="right">BLK</td> <td align="right">TOV</td> <td align="right">PF</td> <td align="right">PTS</td> <td align="right">PER</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Michael Jordan</td> <td align="right">32</td><td align="right">766</td><td align="right">38.6</td><td align="right">12.0</td><td align="right">23.4</td><td align="right">.512</td><td align="right">0.5</td><td align="right">1.6</td><td align="right">.332</td><td align="right">7.5</td><td align="right">8.9</td><td align="right">.844</td><td align="right">.586</td><td align="right">1.7</td><td align="right">4.7</td><td align="right">6.4</td><td align="right">5.7</td><td align="right">2.6</td><td align="right">1.0</td><td align="right">2.9</td><td align="right">2.9</td><td align="right">32.0</td><td align="right">29.6</td></tr> <tr> <td>Kobe Bryant</td> <td align="right">28</td><td align="right">784</td><td align="right">36.2</td><td align="right">8.5</td><td align="right">18.8</td><td align="right">.453</td><td align="right">1.2</td><td align="right">3.5</td><td align="right">.337</td><td align="right">6.4</td><td align="right">7.6</td><td align="right">.838</td><td align="right">.555</td><td align="right">1.2</td><td align="right">4.0</td><td align="right">5.2</td><td align="right">4.5</td><td align="right">1.5</td><td align="right">0.6</td><td align="right">2.9</td><td align="right">2.7</td><td align="right">24.6</td><td align="right">23.5</td></tr> <tr class="rowHead"> <td>Per 48 Minutes</td> <td align="right">Ag</td> <td align="right">G</td> <td align="right">MP</td> <td align="right">FG</td> <td align="right">FGA</td> <td align="right">FG%</td> <td align="right">3P</td> <td align="right">3PA</td> <td align="right">3P%</td> <td align="right">FT</td> <td align="right">FTA</td> <td align="right">FT%</td> <td align="right">TS%</td> <td align="right">ORB</td> <td align="right">DRB</td> <td align="right">TRB</td> <td align="right">AST</td> <td align="right">STL</td> <td align="right">BLK</td> <td align="right">TOV</td> <td align="right">PF</td> <td align="right">PTS</td> <td align="right">PER</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Michael Jordan</td> <td align="right">32</td><td align="right">766</td><td align="right">48.0</td><td align="right">14.9</td><td align="right">29.0</td><td align="right">.512</td><td align="right">0.7</td><td align="right">2.0</td><td align="right">.332</td><td align="right">9.3</td><td align="right">11.1</td><td align="right">.844</td><td align="right">.586</td><td align="right">2.1</td><td align="right">5.8</td><td align="right">7.9</td><td align="right">7.1</td><td align="right">3.3</td><td align="right">1.2</td><td align="right">3.6</td><td align="right">3.5</td><td align="right">39.7</td><td align="right">29.6</td></tr> <tr> <td>Kobe Bryant</td> <td align="right">28</td><td align="right">784</td><td align="right">48.0</td><td align="right">11.3</td><td align="right">25.0</td><td align="right">.453</td><td align="right">1.6</td><td align="right">4.7</td><td align="right">.337</td><td align="right">8.5</td><td align="right">10.1</td><td align="right">.838</td><td align="right">.555</td><td align="right">1.6</td><td align="right">5.3</td><td align="right">6.9</td><td align="right">6.0</td><td align="right">2.0</td><td align="right">0.8</td><td align="right">3.9</td><td align="right">3.6</td><td align="right">32.6</td><td align="right">23.5</td></tr></tbody></table>


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

IceMan23and3 said:


> rebuttals. When you're complaining about precision in stats, at least spellcheck it.


i think he meant kirk rebudles.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

NewAgeBaller said:


> i think he meant kirk rebudles.


 thanks for that video... it was probably the worst waste of internet i have ever seen!


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## Nightmute (Apr 12, 2007)

IceMan23and3 said:


> rebuttals. When you're complaining about precision in stats, at least spellcheck it.
> 
> eFG% Jordan has 9 seasons above 50% whereas Kobe barely has 1
> 
> ...


thank you for the spelling correction and my post isn't saying kobe is more efficient than jordan, because obviously that isn't the case, it was a general complaint on those who choose to use FG% instead of superior stats.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

CubanLaker said:


> tell that to the Suns..


The Suns have alot more going on offensively than just 3-point shooting. But when they rely on it too much, they go through the same booms and busts as every other team that relies on it too much. Me, I like steady. A nice open 18 footer is just so much more reliable than a 23+ footer. And of course, a nice look in the paint is the best thing of all.


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

I wasn't arguing Kobe being better then Jordan, I just don't think he's that far off or that Jordan is the greatest to play the game, that is all.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

and again, jordan's scoring efficiency went down as his winning went up. he was arguably a better player when his stats were lower. and part of it was a function of his role within, you guessed it, the triangle offense. part was due to a shift in the game towards a more grind it out style from the free-flow 80s.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

KobedunkedonShaq said:


> Not to knock MJ here, but from a revisionist's point of view, MJ has always been Chicago's best scorer and 2nd best defender. I dont think, MJ has ever been Chicago's best playmaker,defender and scorer at the same time like Kobe.


Umm, try 1987-1993.



> Doubt that it actually produced championship(s)


Wait, so Kobe was the best scorer on the '00-'02 Lakers? Sorry, but no -- that would be the guy getting 28-30 ppg on 56-59% FG.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

I think the thread should be resolved right now.

*To Kobe Fans(including me):* While Kobe may be very similar as far as talent and intensity, Kobe will not be Jordan (to the medias eyes) unless he wins three more championships, wins 5 more MVPs and 6 more Finals MVPs. It sucks but that's reality.

*To Jordan Fans: *While Jordan may have the championships and MVPs, Kobe is the closest thing to in talent, skill and intensity whether you like it or not. Just be happy with the fact the media will never see Kobe as Jordan. So in the end, Jordan wins....again.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

The One said:


> I think the thread should be resolved right now.
> 
> *To Kobe Fans(including me):* While Kobe may be very similar as far as talent and intensity, Kobe will not be Jordan (to the medias eyes) unless he wins three more championships, wins 5 more MVPs and 6 more Finals MVPs. It sucks but that's reality.
> 
> *To Jordan Fans: *While Jordan may have the championships and MVPs, Kobe is the closest thing to in talent, skill and intensity whether you like it or not. Just be happy with the fact the media will never see Kobe as Jordan. So in the end, *Jordan wins....again.*


Kobe may be the closest to Jordan on the court, but that is still pretty far away. I think that's all the Jordan fans are arguing.

Agreed. The resolution has been accepted.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Umm, try 1987-1993.


Be honest now, Jordan was in no way Chicago's best defender during their championship years. The assignment of guarding the best player went to Pippen, Jordan was an extraordinary wing defender, but let's not make our fanaticism take over. Pippen was also responsible for the point forwad/play making settings during the Bulls championship run.


Phil said it best in his book despite take cheap shots at Kobe. He cant help but mention that Kobe has been the best defender and facilitator that he ever coached. He also marveled at the very unique ability of Kobe to take over the game offensively just like MJ.



Jordan23Forever said:


> Wait, so Kobe was the best scorer on the '00-'02 Lakers? Sorry, but no -- that would be the guy getting 28-30 ppg on 56-59% FG.


Actually Kobe took over in a lot of series offensively for the Laker's during thier championship run. Shaq sure dominated the Finals, but in most series in the West(namely against the Trail Blazers, Spurs and I think against the Kings) Kobe was the teams leading scorer.


I love MJ but sometimes, we just have to step our adoration a notch lower.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

the pippen guarded the best player is basically a myth. pippen guarded opposing 3's almost all the time. they didn't simply put pippen on the opposing teams best players. he was best equipped to guard 3's. pippen had greater overall defensive responsibility after probably '91 or '92 because the bulls were better off that way, but not because he simply always guarded the other teams top gun.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

aznzen said:


> Be honest now, Jordan was in no way Chicago's best defender during their championship years. The assignment of guarding the best player went to Pippen, Jordan was an extraordinary wing defender, but let's not make our fanaticism take over. Pippen was also responsible for the point forwad/play making settings during the Bulls championship run.
> 
> 
> Phil said it best in his book despite take cheap shots at Kobe. *He cant help but mention that Kobe has been the best defender and facilitator that he ever coached. *He also marveled at the very unique ability of Kobe to take over the game offensively just like MJ.
> ...


When did Phil Jackson say that?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

he didn't.

he said this:



> "I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that."


and this



> "Kobe's become the floor leader of a basketball team that was kind of looking for that nature of a player, who could not only be a scorer, but also be a playmaker or consistently make big plays at critical times. So it was very important for Kobe to step into that role that he was envisioned at. I've always held the bar up very high for Kobe, and he's not only reached that bar, but he's jumping over the top of it right now."


http://espn.go.com/page2/s/closer/020212.html

a long time ago.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

kflo said:


> he didn't.
> 
> he said this:
> 
> ...


So basically he's the best facilitator Phil has ever coached, but Jackson never said he was the best defender he ever coached, right?


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

kflo said:


> the pippen guarded the best player is basically a myth. pippen guarded opposing 3's almost all the time. they didn't simply put pippen on the opposing teams best players. he was best equipped to guard 3's. pippen had greater overall defensive responsibility after probably '91 or '92 because the bulls were better off that way, but not because he simply always guarded the other teams top gun.


and you're saying this because wait...


Mj guarded the great john starks.


c'mon now, lets be real. Jordan maintained a high level of production offensively because, someone at the other end was willing to cover the defensive effort.


pippen guarded magic in the nba finals. pippen guarded barkley, majerle and even kevin johnson at small stretches while mj went all out on the offensive end against the suns (avg 41.0 ppg), so whatever small energy he had was used to shut down danny ainge and majerle primarly. 


against utah, pippen was assigned to stop john stockton. mj was forced to guard hornacek and byron russell.


seattle? jordan came out and said that he's not guarding payton. thats a far testament about mj always guarding the best player on the team.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

f22egl said:


> So basically he's the best facilitator Phil has ever coached, but Jackson never said he was the best defender he ever coached, right?


he said pippen is the best defensive player he ever coached.


what i stated is that phil stated that kobe was his best facilitator and defensive player on the floor. both skills being materialized at the same time.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

kflo said:


> he didn't.
> 
> he said this:
> 
> ...



negative.

the excerpts i said where copied from Phil's the last season not from espn.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

aznzen said:


> and you're saying this because wait...
> 
> 
> Mj guarded the great john starks.
> ...


i said pippen guarded 3's, almost all the time. which he did. jordan mostly guarded 2's. you have some isolated instances. and they were mostly temporary. jordan guarded reggie, richmond, whoever. i of course didn't say jordan always guarded the best player on the team. they usually stayed true to their positions.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

I thought I resolved this. I guess not. Oh well....


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

The One said:


> I thought I resolved this. I guess not. Oh well....


It was a nice try, young grasshopper, but fact is people have been spoonfed the Michael-Jordan-is-God meal for an awfull lotta time. They won't change just like that.


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> It was a nice try, young grasshopper, but fact is people have been spoonfed the Michael-Jordan-is-God meal for an awfull lotta time. They won't change just like that.


i had a taste of that jordan spoon and i didnt like it, but the magic spoon was much better.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

aznzen said:


> Be honest now, Jordan was in no way Chicago's best defender during their championship years. The assignment of guarding the best player went to Pippen, Jordan was an extraordinary wing defender, but let's not make our fanaticism take over.


Jordan was the best defender on Chicago _at least_ until '92 at the earliest. In '93 he likely was as well (he was still known as the best perimeter defender in the league, many -- including Jerry West -- felt he was the best defensive player *overall*, and he finished second in DPOY voting in '93 as well). But you can call Pippen his defensive equal in '93 if you like. Not his superior, however. LOL @ "not in any way their best defensive player" -- I guess that's why he finished second in DPOY voting in 1990 and 1993, and top 4 in '91 and '92, and why he -- not Pippen -- was regarded as the best perimeter defender in the league (at the very least).


And the whole "Pippen guarded the best opposing player" thing is a myth. If that player was a SF, then yes, he took them. Pippen almost exclusively guarded 3's save for three exceptions: Magic in the '91 Finals, whom he guarded about 50% of the time along with Jordan; Penny, who was 6'7" anyway, in the '96 ECF; and 52 year old Mark Jackson in the '98 ECF. That's it. Aside from that, Pippen guarded 3's save for switches on defense. When the best opposing perimeter player was a SG, combo guard, or occasionally a PG, then the job fell to Jordan, not Pippen. Jordan guarded guys like Reggie Miller, Drexler, Isiah/Dumars, Richmond, Sprewell, Houston, Payton (at times), Price (at times), Tim Hardaway (at times), Mullin, Eddie Jones, Alvin Robertson, Kevin Johnson (at times), Hornacek, Payton (at times), Hawkins etc. Jordan, not Pippen, did this. Pippen almost exclusively guarded 3's. Period.




> Pippen was also responsible for the point forwad/play making settings during the Bulls championship run.


Umm, that's a *role* within the triangle offense. Pippen was the initiator, and a lot of his assists came off of passes to Jordan, a dominant scorer. That Jordan was able to average 5.5-6+ apg during the first three-peat while Pippen was the primary ballhandler and initiator is a testament to his playmaking ability and how much defenses keyed on him.

In fact, as a *playmaker*, Jordan was probably better at age 34 than Pippen ever was. He was also a better passer (in terms of skill, degree of difficulty, % completion etc.) than Pippen. There's a difference between passing and playmaking, but unfortunately for you, Jordan was better at both. Pippen had a higher apg volume for two reasons: it was his role in the offense; and about a 25-35% of his assists came off of passes to Jordan, a dominant scorer. 

As an example of the difference between playmaking and passing, Kobe might (might) be a better passer than Wade, but Wade is a superior playmaker.



> He cant help but mention that Kobe has been the best defender and facilitator that he ever coached.


LOL

Kobe's not anywhere near Jordan and Pippen's league defensively. The only area where it's close -- and this is only when Kobe really *tries* -- is individual, one-on-one defense. Jordan and Pippen still have edges there, but it's the closest defensive area between them all. In terms of off-the-ball, team, and help defense (i.e., total defensive impact), Kobe really isn't in their universe. Never has been. That's why Jordan was still placing top 5 in DPOY voting at age 34 and 35 and Kobe is nowhere to be found in what's supposed to be his prime.




> Shaq sure dominated the Finals, but in most series in the West(namely against the Trail Blazers, Spurs and I think against the Kings) Kobe was the teams leading scorer.


You sure Kobe was the leading scorer against the Blazers with his whopping 22 ppg on 43% shooting? He also wasn't the leading scorer against Sacramento, and though he was the leading scorer vs. SA in 2002 (33.3 pts/51% FG), Shaq averaged 28 pts/12.5 reb/56% FG himself, so... 



> pippen guarded magic in the nba finals. pippen guarded barkley, majerle and even kevin johnson at small stretches while mj went all out on the offensive end against the suns (avg 41.0 ppg), so whatever small energy he had was used to shut down danny ainge and majerle primarly.


How about you go watch that Suns series again. It was *Jordan*, not Pippen, who guarded KJ about 25% of that series, particularly in the 4th quarters. If Pip guarded KJ for one possession that series it was a lot. And Pippen never guarded Barkley, either -- where are you getting this stuff from? I mean, really...it's just nonsense that anyone who's watched the series can disprove. The only time I ever saw Pip guard Barkley (and I have over 260 Bulls games on tape and DVD) was during the '91 playoffs for a few brief stretches (half quarters), and he got *destroyed*.



> against utah, pippen was assigned to stop john stockton


Umm, no he didn't. How about you go watch the series again. I can tell that you're no older than 23, since you seem to have imbibed the mythology that has developed around Pippen over the years for whatever reasons. Here's a clue: Pippen never guarded Stockton for even a *single game* in either the '97 or '98 Finals. Pippen was primarily used as a "roamer" in those series, and was frequently put on non-threats like Greg Foster or Adam Keefe so that he could cause havoc all over the floor with his length and anticipation. But he never guarded Stock for even a single game -- in fact, I don't think he even guarded him for one *half* of one game (consecutively) over those two Finals series.



> seattle? jordan came out and said that he's not guarding payton. thats a far testament about mj always guarding the best player on the team.


Two things:

*1)* Link to that quote from Jordan? He may have said it as a _statement of fact_ (e.g., "I won't be guarding Gary this series"), but not in a "no way am I taking this cat" manner.

*2)* Who ever asserted that Jordan always guarded the best player on the opposing team? He didn't all the time -- especially not during the second three-peat, when he was age 33-35 and past his defensive prime. The Bulls had well-defined defensive roles for that second three-peat in particular, with Harper generally taking PG/combo guards, Jordan taking 2's and occasionally 3's, and Pippen primarily taking 3's and occasionally jump-shooting 4's like Joe Smith. Jordan would also take PG's/combo guards if they were getting off on Harper, e.g. Strickland in the '97 playoffs.


The second three-peat Bulls did many things for the benefit of the *team*, and it resulted in 3 consecutive championships. They didn't do things to conform to some ridiculous notion of "OMG, I have to take the best player every game!!!1" That's just stupid. During the second three-peat, neither Pippen nor Jordan nor Harper "always took the best player" -- it depended on what position that player played. 

Go watch some games, kid. My 260+ Bulls games tell me that you have no idea what you're talking about.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Undefeated82 said:


> i had a taste of that jordan spoon and i didnt like it, but the* magic spoon was much better*.


Hell yes.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Jordan was the best defender on Chicago _at least_ until '92 at the earliest. In '93 he likely was as well (he was still known as the best perimeter defender in the league, many -- including Jerry West -- felt he was the best defensive player *overall*, and he finished second in DPOY voting in '93 as well). But you can call Pippen his defensive equal in '93 if you like. Not his superior, however. LOL @ "not in any way their best defensive player" -- I guess that's why he finished second in DPOY voting in 1990 and 1993, and top 4 in '91 and '92, and why he -- not Pippen -- was regarded as the best perimeter defender in the league (at the very least).
> 
> 
> And the whole "Pippen guarded the best opposing player" thing is a myth. If that player was a SF, then yes, he took them. Pippen almost exclusively guarded 3's save for three exceptions: Magic in the '91 Finals, whom he guarded about 50% of the time along with Jordan; Penny, who was 6'7" anyway, in the '96 ECF; and 52 year old Mark Jackson in the '98 ECF. That's it. Aside from that, Pippen guarded 3's save for switches on defense. When the best opposing perimeter player was a SG, combo guard, or occasionally a PG, then the job fell to Jordan, not Pippen. Jordan guarded guys like Reggie Miller, Drexler, Isiah/Dumars, Richmond, Sprewell, Houston, Payton (at times), Price (at times), Tim Hardaway (at times), Mullin, Eddie Jones, Alvin Robertson, Kevin Johnson (at times), Hornacek, Payton (at times), Hawkins etc. Jordan, not Pippen, did this. Pippen almost exclusively guarded 3's. Period.
> ...



Killin' 'em softly.:cheers:


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> LOL
> 
> Kobe's not anywhere near Jordan and Pippen's league defensively. The only area where it's close -- and this is only when Kobe really *tries* -- is individual, one-on-one defense. Jordan and Pippen still have edges there, but it's the closest defensive area between them all. In terms of off-the-ball, team, and help defense (i.e., total defensive impact), Kobe really isn't in their universe. Never has been. That's why Jordan was still placing top 5 in DPOY voting at age 34 and 35 and Kobe is nowhere to be found in what's supposed to be his prime.


Your last post was almost perfect until this paragraph. You do understand that you are comparing Kobe to *two* players as far as off-ball steals. Of course Jordan dominated in that aspect because he AND Pippen were great a trapping producing more steals.

It would have been nice to See Kobe and Kidd play on the same team because they will have the same effect too (just like this past FIBA games).


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

The One said:


> Your last post was almost perfect until this paragraph. You do understand that you are comparing Kobe to *two* players as far as off-ball steals. Of course Jordan dominated in that aspect because he AND Pippen were great a trapping producing more steals.


Umm, no, my post was almost perfect throughout. You're simply looking at things incorrectly (likely purposely).

Before you made this post, did you ever even ask yourself, "I wonder how good of a ball thief Jordan was without Pippen around"? No, I bet you didn't, because here's what you would have found:


*1985 (rookie season):* 2.4 steals per game (more than any season of Kobe's; 2.5 steals per 40 minutes)

*1986 playoffs:* 2.8 steals per game

*1987 season:* 2.9 steals and 1.5 blocks per game

*1998 season at age 35 w/o Pippen for 38 games*: 1.7 steals per game (he finished the season at 1.7 spg, meaning that he averaged the same number of steals with and without Pippen that year)

*2002 season at age 39:* 1.4 steals per game (1.6 stl per 40 minutes; for reference, Kobe was at 1.4 steals per game and per 40 *this season*, at age 28)

*2003 season at age 40:* 1.5 steals per game (1.6 stl per 40 minutes; so Jordan averaged more steals per game at age *40* than Kobe did at age 28 -- and he did it without Pippen, miraculously)


So yeah, your point is pretty much dead in the water. Jordan's defensive impact in the aforementioned areas was *always* greater than Kobe's, Pippen or not. Of course having a second great defender with tremendous instincts around helps you, and the team, defensively, but Jordan's game was what it was regardless. The *evidence* (you know, that thing Kobe fans tend to avoid) proves this.

I find it hysterical that Jordan at age 39 and 40 (without Pippen OMG!!!1  ) averaged more steals than Kobe did this season, yet you're trying to act as though he didn't have an *inherent* advantage there, and as though it was all due to Pippen's presence. He also averaged 3.2 steals and 1.6 blocks in Pippen's rookie year, when Pip was a 20 mpg bench-warmer, but I'm sure that's inadmissable because Pippen's mere presence (despite being nowehere near the defender he would become) granted Jordan super anticipatory powers. Or on the Dream Team, where he averaged 4.6 steals per game (including a US Olympic record 8 steals in a game *two times* on consecutive days) in about 22 mpg and largely playing *without* Pippen on the floor (they anchored different units). And this same argument holds for Pippen, who, without Jordan in '94 and most of '95, put up better defensive stats than Kobe ever has by a good margin.


It's just total BS, as usual. People don't even think before they post.



> It would have been nice to See Kobe and Kidd play on the same team because they will have the same effect too (just like this past FIBA games).


Really? Did Kobe average 4.6 steals per game this tournament like Jordan did in '92 and I missed it? And Jordan and Pippen were rarely on the floor together that tournament whereas Kobe and Kidd were on the floor together a lot this year.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Really? Did Kobe average 4.6 steals per game this tournament like Jordan did in '92 and I missed it? And Jordan and Pippen were rarely on the floor together that tournament whereas Kobe and Kidd were on the floor together a lot this year.


That can be attributed to playing against tougher competition. International squads now are light years ahead of what they were in 92. If you put this Team USA against the international teams that the 92 Dream Team played against, they would look just as good as the Dream team did in 92. IMO its not Team USA who has changed in regards to level of talent, its the other teams around the world who have gotten better.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

The One said:


> I think the thread should be resolved right now.
> 
> *To Kobe Fans(including me):* While Kobe may be very similar as far as talent and intensity, Kobe will not be Jordan (to the medias eyes) unless he wins three more championships, wins 5 more MVPs and 6 more Finals MVPs. It sucks but that's reality.
> 
> *To Jordan Fans: *While Jordan may have the championships and MVPs, Kobe is the closest thing to in talent, skill and intensity whether you like it or not. Just be happy with the fact the media will never see Kobe as Jordan. So in the end, Jordan wins....again.


Oh how i wish it was this easy..


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## g-dog-rice#2 (Jan 29, 2006)

I'm not saying Kobe is as good as MJ, but he has broken several of Jordan's records. So I don't see how you can discredit Kobe by saying "he isn't even close to MJ."

He's definitely not far behind in terms of talent. And he still has about 10 more years in the league to accomplish a lot of things.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

CubanLaker said:


> That can be attributed to playing against tougher competition. International squads now are light years ahead of what they were in 92. If you put this Team USA against the international teams that the 92 Dream Team played against, they would look just as good as the Dream team did in 92. IMO its not Team USA who has changed in regards to level of talent, it the other team around the world who have gotten better.


So I guess you're implying (like the other poster did) that Kobe is Jordan's equal or relative equal in the areas of off-the-ball, team, and help defense. News flash: he's not even close. Kobe's overall defensive impact on games, taking all aspects of defense into account, is only about 60-70% of what Jordan's was at the same age.

I also love how you addressed a small snippet of my post and ignored the rest of the overwhelming evidence, as Kobe fans are wont to do. Did Kobe even average *half* of 4.6 steals this tournament? And that's *with* Kidd in the backcourt beside him (to address the other poster's contention). 

40 year old Jordan averaged more steals per game and per 40 minutes than Kobe did at age 28. Sad. Very sad. But he's Jordan's equal in that regard! Why? Because Kobe fans "say so." No evidence, just assertion. As usual.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

g-dog-rice#2 said:


> I'm not saying Kobe is as good as MJ, but he has broken several of Jordan's records.


What NBA records which Jordan holds did Kobe break? Just curious.

Here's a clue: Jordan's 69-point career high wasn't an NBA record.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Umm, no, my post was almost perfect throughout. You're simply looking at things incorrectly (*likely purposely*).
> 
> Before you made this post, did you ever even ask yourself, "I wonder how good of a ball thief Jordan was without Pippen around"? No, I bet you didn't, because here's what you would have found:
> 
> ...


Dude. Are you that pridefull of your stats that when someone only questiones ONE paragraph of about 30 you have wrote you have to make it seem like that person (me) is completely against you?

Why does this mean so much to you? I'm courious because several people have downed your post because they don't want just statistics for this argument; yet you still shove stats down their throats as if at some time they will just accept it. It doesn't work that way and I think you know that. Maybe it has nothing to do about changing other members mind. Maybe it you wanting to boast your knowledge: nothing wrong with that though because you are probably the most thorough stats arguer I have ever seen on this site. So in that I commend you.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> So I guess you're implying (like the other poster did) that Kobe is Jordan's equal or relative equal in the areas of off-the-ball, team, and help defense. News flash: he's not even close. Kobe's overall defensive impact on games, taking all aspects of defense into account, is only about 60-70% of what Jordan's was at the same age.
> 
> I also love how you addressed a small snippet of my post and ignored the rest of the overwhelming evidence, as Kobe fans are wont to do. Did Kobe even average *half* of 4.6 steals this tournament? And that's *with* Kidd in the backcourt beside him (to address the other poster's contention).
> 
> 40 year old Jordan averaged more steals per game and per 40 minutes than Kobe did at age 28. Sad. Very sad. But he's Jordan's equal in that regard! Why? Because Kobe fans "say so." No evidence, just assertion. As usual.


Dude relax. I never said Kobe was better than Jordan or that Kobe was Jordan's equal or whatever else you think i said. All i said is that the competition that the Dream Team played against was vastly inferior to the competition this years Team USA is playing against. Someone get this guy a prozac.


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

game set match to Jordan23Forever


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

The One said:


> Why does this mean so much to you?


Hint: check his forum name.



> I'm courious because several people have downed your post because they don't want just statistics for this argument; yet you still shove stats down their throats as if at some time they will just accept it. It doesn't work that way and I think you know that. Maybe it has nothing to do about changing other members mind. Maybe it you wanting to boast your knowledge: nothing wrong with that though because you are probably the most thorough stats arguer I have ever seen on this site. So in that I commend you.


Well, there's a liiiiitle problem: stats don't support his claim.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> 1. Hint: check his forum name.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Well, there's a liiiiitle problem: stats don't support his claim.


1. oops.....that was obvious:biggrin: 

2. I was only commending his thoroughness. Some members just like to pull random or made up stats out of their ***. It may not support his claim but at least he does his research.


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

Sometimes I wonder whether some of the guys on this board ever actually watch basketball games. It seems like all they do is read and study stats. Stats DO NOT tell you how good or great a player is.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

The One said:


> Dude. Are you that pridefull of your stats that when someone only questiones ONE paragraph of about 30 you have wrote you have to make it seem like that person (me) is completely against you?


By focusing on one part of my post, it seemed like you were trying to refute the main thrust of my argument without looking at the totality of the evidence.



> Why does this mean so much to you? I'm courious because several people have downed your post because they don't want just statistics for this argument; yet you still shove stats down their throats as if at some time they will just accept it.


The reason that certain people (read: Kobe fans) want to "look past stats" and rely *completely* on subjectivism (which is what they'd need to do, since literally *every* available stat shows Jordan to be Kobe's clear superior) is because it's the only way they can act like Kobe is "virtually identical to Jordan" as a player (Paulo's words, which were what prompted my first post herein). When you actually examine the evidence, however, a vastly different picture emerges.



> It doesn't work that way and I think you know that. Maybe it has nothing to do about changing other members mind. Maybe it you wanting to boast your knowledge: nothing wrong with that though because you are probably the most thorough stats arguer I have ever seen on this site. So in that I commend you.


No, it has to do with the fact that I won't allow mindless posters act like one player is another player's equal based on *mere assertion* when they have *absolutely no objective backing whatsoever*. That just gets my goat (or GOAT, in this instance ). I could see if a half, or even a third, of the numbers favored Kobe, but literally *none* of them do. And that level of separation is not something that should be permitted to be cast aside by mere assertion. It requires proof, insofar as that can go in sports talk, not opinion.



PauloCatarino said:


> Well, there's a liiiiitle problem: stats don't support his claim


WTF!? :lol: Is this bizarro world? Don't they always say that education in other countries is vastly superior to American education? What's Paulo's excuse? Let me repost *yet again* all of the relevant numbers and let people decide for themselves:



Jordan23forever said:


> Kobe the better offensive player? Let's check their respective offensive ratings from age 26-28 (since Kobe's been "the man"):
> 
> 
> Kobe's ORtg from age 26-28:
> ...





Jordan23forever said:


> No question the last two seasons have been Kobe's best. Yet he still pales in comparison. Here are Kobe's numbers from the past 3 seasons (sorry, but I'm not going to act as if the 2005 season never happened like many Kobe fans do) and Jordan's 3 years from age 25-28:
> 
> 
> *Kobe**:*
> ...





Jordan23forever said:


> Kobe's best season (2006) doesn't even crack Jordan's top 8 seasons statistically. I have to laugh at the poster who said that it's basically a "pick 'em" between the two, and that any difference is attributable to the quality of their teammates. This ignores the fact that Jordan was significantly better than Kobe even before he got a good team around him. It's just a joke, really. I'd have thought my long post would have destroyed the will of all Kobe groupies, but this guy is apparently a special case. So here's what I'll do. We'll take Kobe's best year (2006) and compare it to Jordan's 7th or 8th best statistical season. We'll take per 40 minute numbers to simplify calculations:
> 
> 
> *2006 Kobe per 40**:*
> ...





Jordan23forever said:


> Again, you're comparing Jordan's career numbers -- a career which stretched through age 40, mind you -- to Kobe's numbers through the middle of his prime. A typical Kobe fan tactic. How is it "not close," you ask? Oh, I don't know - maybe you should go back and *read the previous few posts of mine again*. Better yet, let me show you some of their numbers again. If you're so dense that you'll ask me again how it's not close after this, then go back to school:
> 
> 
> *Jordan from age 21-28:*
> ...





Jordan23forever said:


> If you want me to say that Kobe is within 8-10% of Jordan in terms of offensive efficiency, then that's fine -- I'll do so. It really does little to lessen the force of my overall argument. You seem to think that there's not *at least* 10% difference between them statistically, so I'll now repost some of the numbers I've posted previously along with the % above Kobe's numbers that Jordan's numbers in that category are:
> 
> 
> Kobe's average ORtg from age 26-28: 113.3 ORtg (*7.3* above league average during that time)
> ...


*

So now people can decide whether the numbers do or don't support the conclusion that Jordan is clearly Kobe's superior as a player overall. And again, these are only the numbers -- they don't account for defensive impact (where Jordan >> Kobe), intangibles/leadership (where he had an edge as well), and bball IQ and game management. Add all of these up with his sizeable production advantage and only the most obstinate and obtuse of Kobe fans could continue in their blind crusade to elevate Kobe to Jordan's level.




Roscoe Sheed said:



Stats DO NOT tell you how good or great a player is.

Click to expand...

Right. So if a player can't even dominate his peers statistically, which means that he's not producing on the court to a greater degree than his contemporaries, we should confer GOAT status upon just because others "say so." Whatever. This is the typical Kobe fan BS I was talking about. Let Kobe lead the league in PER or EFF once before we go comparing him to the all-time greats, much less someone as dominant as Jordan, who did it a dozen times. Please...

Stats aren't the be-all, end-all by any means, but when the statistical gap is large (and it is; see above) and the other player doesn't compare favorably in terms of awards/accolades or team success either, well, the conclusion is pretty clear. Yet Kobe fans want to insist otherwise. They can take that sort of nonsense elsewhere.*


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jordan23Forever said:


> By focusing on one part of my post, it seemed like you were trying to refute the main thrust of my argument without looking at the totality of the evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are one funny dude...

Have you answered my post where i said YOUR stats prove that last year's Kobe was better than the Michael Jordan who won his last ring yet?


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

The One said:


> I think the thread should be resolved right now.
> 
> *To Kobe Fans(including me):* While Kobe may be very similar as far as talent and intensity, Kobe will not be Jordan (to the medias eyes) unless he wins three more championships, wins 5 more MVPs and 6 more Finals MVPs. It sucks but that's reality.
> 
> *To Jordan Fans: *While Jordan may have the championships and MVPs, Kobe is the closest thing to in talent, skill and intensity whether you like it or not. Just be happy with the fact the media will never see Kobe as Jordan. So in the end, Jordan wins....again.


Im gonna go ahead and quote this again...


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

When it is all said and done, will Kobe be....

Murdered by Darko Milicic.


----------



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Jordan was the best defender on Chicago _at least_ until '92 at the earliest. .


Scottie was just a different beast in their championship years, much more when he reached his peak. He gradually and even exceeded his defensive tenacity above MJ's. 

As a matter of fact Scottie got *more* 1st place votes than Jordan during their second 3 peat run in terms of DPOY balloting.







Jordan23Forever said:


> In '93 he likely was as well (he was still known as the best perimeter defender in the league, many -- including Jerry West -- felt he was the best defensive player *overall*, and he finished second in DPOY voting in '93 as well). .


So just because Jerry West paid compliments to jordan, it translates to a universal truth? Lol.




Jordan23Forever said:


> LOL @ "not in any way their best defensive player" -- I guess that's why he finished second in DPOY voting in 1990 and 1993, and top 4 in '91 and '92, and why he -- not Pippen -- was regarded as the best perimeter defender in the league (at the very least).
> 
> LOL @ not acknowledging Pippen " in any way Chicago's best defensive player" Since you like to use overall balloting, how can you explain Scottie's reign over Jordan frm 95-97? LOL, in fact Scottie garnered *2nd overall among the DPOY votes* while *Mike* was placed down in *6th* in one of their best seasons ever.
> 
> ...


----------



## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

You're all over he place, aznzen, but let's address your claims:



aznzen said:


> Scottie was just a different beast in their championship years, much more when he reached his peak. He gradually and even exceeded his defensive tenacity above MJ's.
> 
> As a matter of fact Scottie got *more* 1st place votes than Jordan during their second 3 peat run in terms of DPOY balloting.


As I've *already said*, Pippen was a better defender during the second three-peat in most respects than Jordan was. This is because Pip was 3-4 years younger and in his defensive prime, while Jordan was past his. But let's look at what you *originally said:*



aznzen said:


> Be honest now, Jordan was in no way Chicago's best defender during their championship years.


I wasn't aware that Chicago only won championships from '96-'98. As I said, Jordan was Chicago's best defender *at least* until 1992, and most likely (going by league consensus, DPOY votes etc.) until his retirement in 1993. So yeah, way to stay focused... 



> So just because Jerry West paid compliments to jordan, it translates to a universal truth? Lol.


No. I've heard a number of commentators and analysts call Jordan in '92 and '93 "the best defensive player in the game" and/or "the best perimeter defender in the game." Not just West -- it was an example. DPOY voting supports my argument.




> LOL @ not acknowledging Pippen " in any way Chicago's best defensive player" Since you like to use overall balloting, how can you explain Scottie's reign over Jordan frm 95-97? LOL, in fact Scottie garnered *2nd overall among the DPOY votes* while *Mike* was placed down in *6th* in one of their best seasons ever.


How do I explain it? How about by pointing out that *I was talking about the first three-peat.* Get your head examined. Jordan's defensive rating was actually lower than Pippen's that year (1996), btw, not that it made him the better defender overall.



> And its just funny that Scottie Pippen not MJ was considered Chicago's best defensive court presence. In that year, Phil and Tex praised Scottie for being the ultimate defensive anchor of the Bulls perimeter... LOL.


That's funny, because in 1993, Jackson called Jordan "the best defensive player of his generation." Funny how that works, huh?




> Its not a myth...LOL. Its a fact, Pippen and Jordan stayed true in their position, but Pippen was the assigned specialist during Chicago's key and crucial stretches,


Actually, you're wrong, and anyone is welcome to find or purchase 250+ Bulls games like I have and see for themselves just how wrong you really are. In fact, your point here is a weak one: Jordan was always, at least until 1998, a better defensive stopper at the end of games or on crucial possessions than Pippen was. Most people know this. Where Pip had Jordan during the second three-peat is in consistency of defensive effort and team defense.



> Pippen did what Jordan couldn't, or wouldn't. Pippen usually guarded the toughest offensive player


I'll just repost what I posted earlier in response to this nonsense, since it doesn't seem to have penetrated your cranium:



Jordan23forever said:


> And the whole "Pippen guarded the best opposing player" thing is a myth. If that player was a SF, then yes, he took them. Pippen almost exclusively guarded 3's save for three exceptions: Magic in the '91 Finals, whom he guarded about 50% of the time along with Jordan; Penny, who was 6'7" anyway, in the '96 ECF; and 52 year old Mark Jackson in the '98 ECF. That's it. Aside from that, Pippen guarded 3's save for switches on defense. When the best opposing perimeter player was a SG, combo guard, or occasionally a PG, then the job fell to Jordan, not Pippen. Jordan guarded guys like Reggie Miller, Drexler, Isiah/Dumars, Richmond, Sprewell, Houston, Payton (at times), Price (at times), Tim Hardaway (at times), Mullin, Eddie Jones, Alvin Robertson, Kevin Johnson (at times), Hornacek, Payton (at times), Hawkins etc. Jordan, not Pippen, did this. Pippen almost exclusively guarded 3's. Period.


Moving on...



> He defended always, eight straight times making the all-NBA defensive first team is a testament to his defensive dedication.


Who was putting down Pippen's defense? A very legit case can be made that he was a better defensive player than Jordan career-wise.



> *Scottie ranks as the All Time Playoffs Steals Leader, with Jordan ranking second behind him.* retiring with 395 to Jordans's 376.


(emphasis in original)

Yeah, in 29 more playoff games played. So Pippen got an extra 19 steals in 29 playoff games. Jordan's playoff steals per game average is 2.1 spg to 1.9 spg for Pippen. Big deal.



> and you think, Scottie is not on MJ's level :lol:


You're arguing against a strawman, here. When did I ever say that Pippen was not on Jordan's level? Pippen was an elite defender even during the first three-peat. Jordan was better, but Pippen was awesome as well. Find me the quote where I said or implied that Pippen was nowhere near Jordan defensively, even during the first three-peat.




> Homerism at its best. Jordan's playmaking game at the age of 34 was NEVER better than Scottie's prime. :lol:


Sure it was. Scottie was never as good at *making plays* as Jordan was even in 1997 at age 34.



> its one thing to say that jordan was a decent playmaker, but to say and actually take the credit that Scottie truly deserved in this team is ridiculous. LOL.


"Decent playmaker." :lol: Try "possibly the best playmaking SG in history" and you'll be closer to the mark. Again, Scottie was neither a better passer nor a better playmaker than Jordan (you'd do well to learn the difference, btw, though it doesn't matter in this instance since Jordan was his superior in both areas). He filled a certain role on that team in the traingle offense and, since he had the skills to do so, he filled it admirably. But he wasn't, at any point in his career, as good a playmaker as 25-34 year old Jordan was. 25-33 minimum. Ever.




> The fact is, Pippen's passing and unselfsihness complemented Jordan quite well. Jordan took a lot of shots....a lot and to maximize his talents, the Bulls needed guys who could be effective without shooting too much. Pippen was precisely this type of player, a guy who could pass and defend.


And? Did I say he didn't complement Jordan extremely well? The converse holds true as well, by the way.




> Kobe's defensive and playmaking role in his Laker glory days against MJ's/Pippen defensive and playmaking skills is a no contest, if we are to assess both* at the same time, and not single out, one skill at a time.
> 
> Speaking of materializing both aspects, Kobe has a much more balanced approach in this during the LA's championship years.
> 
> ...


More like:

*During the first three-peat:*

Were Jordan and Pippen better defenders than Kobe, individually? Yes

Were Jordan and Pippen better playmakers than Kobe? Jordan yes, Pippen no


*During the second three-peat:*

Were Jordan and Pippen better defenders than Kobe, individually? Jordan yes (Jordan's overall defensive impact on games from '96-'98 was greater than Kobe's in any year save for 2000; Kobe was likely a better one-on-one defender -- which is *one* aspect of defense -- than Jordan was in '97 and certainly in '98, however). Pippen yes.

Were Jordan and Pippen better playmakers than Kobe? Jordan yes in '96, about equal or slightly below in '97, and no in '98. Pippen no -- Kobe's always been a better playmaker than Pippen.




> As you dont know. All defense teams are voted by coaches, so in that effect battling with the likes of Kidd,Payton, Billups against the likes of McMillan and Phills, is such a hard task to overcome.


Oh, sure, it's tremendously hard to overcome -- that's why Kobe has made first team defense the last two seasons despite having nowhere near the defensive impact that Jordan did in '96 and '97 at age 33 and 34. Please... :lol:




> YAWN. If you're going to pick which game and stats, try to be at least more accurate and at least in accordance to the real series that mattered.
> 
> 
> With the Blazers in 2002 Kobe dominated the Blazers series, dropping 34 pts, 7 boards and only 1 TO against Shaq's 25/9 and 4TO in the first game. Kobe had a slightly better mark, and played a much more balanced game than Shaq. Kobe also posted career numbers of *26.5 pts 5.6 boards and 4.3 assts *to *Shaq's 25.6 and 11.3*


Wait, you were talking about the Blazers in *2002*? They weren't a threat by that time anyway. But since you want to look at that 2002 Blazers series so badly, here's what Kobe and Shaq averaged in that series:

*Kobe:* 26.0 pts, 5.7 reb, 5.0 ast, *35.3% FG*

*Shaq**:* 25.7 pts, 11.3 reb, 4.0 ast, *56.3% FG*


Kobe averaged 1.14 points per shot attempt while Shaq averaged 1.61 points per shot attempt. Point blank: Kobe played like garbage that series, and I can't even believe that you'd try to hold it up as evidence that Kobe was superior in any way. For reference, this is your original quote that I responded to:



aznzen said:


> Shaq sure dominated the Finals, but in most series in the West(namely against the Trail Blazers, Spurs and I think against the Kings) Kobe was the teams leading scorer.


I then referenced the 2000 Blazers series where Kobe averaged 23 ppg on 43% shooting, and you came back with the above, talking about how you meant the 2002 Blazers series. And the evidence from *that* series is above, for all to see. But yeah, Kobe outscored Shaq that series despite taking 6.7 more shots per game to average a whopping .3 more ppg. :lol: Again, please...




> Same year, next round, against the Spurs, Kobe dominated the series avg 26.2ppg compared to Shaq's 21.4, which the Lakers won in 5 games.
> 
> Against Sacramento, *Kobe* closed out the series in game 7 in a dramatic fashion, with *30 pts, 10 rebs, 7 assists, 2 stls and NO turnover*. Shaq though fantastic with 35 and 13 and 3 TO was bothered ineffective defensive liability trying to cover the P&R.


Look, without breaking down each series as I did above, I'll just say this:


In the 2002 playoffs, excluding the Finals, Shaq averaged *26.4 pts, 12.7 rebs, and 2.5 blocks on 51% FG* 

In the 2002 playoffs, excluding the Finals, Kobe averaged *26.6 pts, 5.9 reb, and 4.4 ast on 41.8% FG*


So I think it's clear who the better player was in the Western Conference playoffs that season. So kindly spare me the drama....




> God, not only are you annoying but you're also bad at comprehending and reading. but thanks for proving my point. I said Pippen guard Barkley in stretches..S-T_R_E_T_C_H_E_S. BJ ,Pippen and Paxson also covered KJ. The 25% you like to claim about Jordan on Kevin Johnson is equivalent to about 3-4 minutes in a span of 40+ real time minutes LOL.


Except that Pippen didn't even guard Barkley in stretches that series. Grant, Williams, and King guarded Barkley, not Pippen. Again, the *only* time I've ever seen Pippen guard Barkley was for about half a quarter in the '91 playoffs, and he got *brutalized*. And I have at least half a dozen Bulls/Sixers games from '91-'93 on DVD along with the entire '90 and '91 playoff series and the '93 Finals. Try again.




> Two things:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What does that article prove exactly?

But yes, Jordan had a very bad series by his standards, probably the worst of his career. That wasn't exclusively Payton's doing, however, but that's a topic for another time. You originally posted Jordan's "quote" (which we now see the source of, which you didn't post originally) as an example of Jordan "not taking the best player" and somehow "shying away" from Payton. Here was my response to that assertion, which you still haven't addressed:



Jordan23forever said:


> Two things:
> 
> 1) Link to that quote from Jordan? He may have said it as a *statement of fact* (e.g., "I won't be guarding Gary this series"), but not in a "no way am I taking this cat" manner.
> 
> ...


Moving on...




> Wow, you claim to have 260 games out of the possible 1300 games played by both players, and assuming its real, ill just say that those games are most likely the games where Jordan had a superior game among any other, to supply your fanboi way of life.


Actually, I have a good sampling. From '96-'98 I just have random games that were on League Pass, about 100 games in total. For the pre-'96 games I have many full playoff series and "average" games for Jordan. And the great games of his that I have are where he does well offensively.

Again, anyone who's watched the '90-'98 Bulls at length will know that you have *absolutely no clue* what you're talking about. All of your assertions were bogus, and it's clear that you only watched the '96-'98 Bulls, if that.



> Do you have the game where Allen iverson crossed MJ so bad, that after that move he told Phil to assign him to someone else because he chewed more than he can swallow.


"Assign him to someone else"? *Jordan wasn't even guarding AI that game, genius*. As I noted above in the post of *mine* that I quoted, Harper generally took PG's and combo guards (though AI was a scorer, he was 6' tall; hence Harper tended to take him unless someone was going off on him). This goes back to my point that you haven't a clue about what you're talking about. It also goes to my point about how Chicago from '96-'98 did many things for the benefit of the *team*, not to conform to absurd fanboy expectations.

As for "crossing him so bad," well, when you have a 21 year old vs. a 34 year old who is 6" taller than him and you allow said 21 year old to carry the ball to a ridiculous degree when that 21 year old is already perhaps the quickest player in history, I don't consider the 34 year old getting shook a bit and recovering to miss blocking the shot by about 1/10th of a second getting "crossed so bad." If Jordan was 25 instead of 34, that shot gets sent to the 3rd row, and Jordan doesn't bite so badly on the cross because he can trust his footspeed more and doesn't have to anticipate so early.

But it's okay -- Kobe gets burned *now*, at age 27-28. Imagine him at age 34? Wow. :lol: I've seen Nash and Barbosa, neither as quick as Iverson and neither of whom carried the ball to such an absurd degree, make Kobe look like an absolute *statue* in the playoffs the last two years. I've seen Tony Parker completely *bake* 25 year old Kobe without carrying the ball. But don't worry, aznzen, you just keep clinging on to that single memory you have of of Jordan not looking like the best player in the world. :lol:

By the way, you think I couldn't post clips of Pippen getting crossed badly if I wanted to? And by far worse and slower players than Iverson? So tell me, what does a single play mean again?




> Or do you also have the game where Kobe light MJ for 30 + pts?


Yeah, I do, and Kobe scores 16 points through the first 3 quarters, including about 8-9 of those 16 on Jordan. he then scores 17 points in the 4th against bench scrubs while Jordan sat the entire quarter. You were saying?

Again, you have *no idea what you're talking about*. I mean, it's just so blatantly obvious... :lol:



> or how about the game where a 34 y/o Joe Dumars held Jordan for 15 pts while scoring 22 pts on him on 66% shooting?


Yeah, I do have that game, actually. Jordan only took 14 shots (6-14 FG) and concentrated on getting his teammates involved (8 assists and many other passes leading to the assist off of doubles on him in the post). Dumars was unconscious from deep, and every time Jordan would *help* on penetration by Hill (who got by your precious Pippen at will, incidentally), Dumars would spot up for 3 and knock them down (6-7 from deep). *It was a Bulls blowout; they won by 18*.

As Phil Jackson noted in his book, despite calling Jordan "the best defensive player of his generation," he notes that players who camped out behind the line (like Miller, or Dumars in this game) could occasionally have good games against Jordan because his team and help defense was so strong. Is there any question on whether Jordan could have put the clamps on Joe D (especially at that stage of Joe D's career) had he chosen to stay at home with him every possession? Only in the minds of raving lunatics, I suppose...


Again, *watch the games*. And as 'Zo would say: don't bring that weak stuff in here again.











"Jordan23forever beat me up and stole my lunch money."


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> As Phil Jackson noted in his book, despite calling Jordan "the best defensive player of his generation," he notes that players who camped out behind the line (like Miller, or Dumars in this game) could occasionally have good games against Jordan because his team and help defense was so strong. Is there any question on whether Jordan could have put the clamps on Joe D (especially at that stage of Joe D's career) had he chosen to stay at home with him every possession? Only in the minds of raving lunatics, I suppose...


Glad to see you you listen to Pjil Jackson, young grasshopper. Because...

*From kflo:*

"I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that."

"Kobe's become the floor leader of a basketball team that was kind of looking for that nature of a player, who could not only be a scorer, but also be a playmaker or consistently make big plays at critical times. So it was very important for Kobe to step into that role that he was envisioned at. I've always held the bar up very high for Kobe, and he's not only reached that bar, but he's jumping over the top of it right now."

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/closer/020212.html

:biggrin:


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

One clarification. Nash is probably 1st or 2nd in the league in terms of palming, but is NEVER called for it. Left-to-right low crossover, in the paint waiting for something to develop, pick and roll, on the switch with the big to set up the pull-up jumper. He discontinues his dribble all the time. 


Parker and Barbosa palm/carry a good amount as well. There was a Laker/Spurs game last season or in 05/06 where Phil Jackson was yelling "carry" over and over from the bench when Tony Parker was dribbling.


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> But it's okay -- Kobe gets burned *now*, at age 27-28. Imagine him at age 34? Wow. :lol: I've seen Nash and Barbosa, neither as quick as Iverson and neither of whom carried the ball to such an absurd degree, make Kobe look like an absolute *statue* in the playoffs the last two years. I've seen Tony Parker completely *bake* 25 year old Kobe without carrying the ball.


Really?? The same Barbosa whom Kobe locked up for 4 points a couple of weeks ago? Oh and last time i checked, it wasnt Kobe's assignment to guard Nash in the last two playoff series. Nash was Smush's assignment and when Smush wasnt in the task went to Farmar and Sasha. 

and come to think of it, Tony Parker wasnt Kobe's assignment either. In 2002 and 2003 Parker was Fisher's assignment. and in 04 the job of guarding Tony went to Payton. Kobe has always been assigned to Manu who has averaged 13.2 ppg to Kobe's 29.3 ppg in head to head comparisons. 

Before you get all pissed and go off on a 30 page rant, relax. Notice i havent mentioned Jordan at all in this post..
<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d170/cirrocuban/gooding_jordan.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

Jordan23Forever said:


> But it's okay -- Kobe gets burned *now*, at age 27-28. Imagine him at age 34? Wow. :lol: I've seen Nash and Barbosa, neither as quick as Iverson and neither of whom carried the ball to such an absurd degree, make Kobe look like an absolute *statue* in the playoffs the last two years. I've seen Tony Parker completely *bake* 25 year old Kobe without carrying the ball. But don't worry, aznzen, you just keep clinging on to that single memory you have of of Jordan not looking like the best player in the world. :lol:


I'm convinced the only solution for you is.....










just stick to the late 80's-early 90's, I'm sure dinosaurs will not find Jordan stats as amusing as you do.....

Different era's and different rules allowed Jordan to be the defensive monster he was, his lateral movement wasn't that great, it was his quick hands, help defense and strength that made his defense look so much better. Kobe plays in the no touch, ghost foul era of basketball. I'm not saying that Kobe plays or has played better defense then Jordan, but close yes. But the no touch rules make the gap seem bigger then what is is.

P.S. Jordan is not the greatest of all time. There's a couple of guys that were better then he was, just don't go hanging yourself over it. :biggrin:


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Jordan wins, and it's not even close. I'm a Kobe homer, but it's a lie to say Kobe is anywhere as great as MJ.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

His name is Jordan23Forever. I mean REALLY.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Kobe's wife said Jordan is better & she should know.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

Kobe is obviously better than jordan because Kobe has a 16 page thread and jordan never had one of those


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Undefeated82 said:


> his lateral movement wasn't that great


Is this a joke? Jordan's lateral movement was a fair bit better than Kobe's. That's how he used to stay in front of guys like Isiah, KJ, and Tim Hardaway when he needed to. I'm guessing you've only seen '96-'98 Jordan (whose lateral movement in _at least_ '96 was comparable to Kobe's).



> it was his quick hands, help defense and strength that made his defense look so much better. Kobe plays in the no touch, ghost foul era of basketball. I'm not saying that Kobe plays or has played better defense then Jordan, but close yes. But the no touch rules make the gap seem bigger then what is is.


Even from '99-'04, Kobe's defense was never as good as Jordan's. So no, it's not about the rules, though I agree that they have an impact on the type of defense that can be played. They also still let Kobe get away with a lot of contact when he's in his "let me lock up this guy" mode (see: Ray Allen, Vince Carter, who were both getting mugged out there with no calls), so I'm not sure where you're coming from.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Is this argument still seriously going on? 

Wow.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

When all is said done Kobe will be murdered by Darko Milicic in a public restroom in Minneapolis Airport after accidentally making a pass at him as a result of eating the tex-mex barbecue in San Antonio. And Darko won't be convicted because a Kobe-Vanessa Hudgens sex tape will be discovered during the trial, and the site of Kobe getting pegged while dressed in drag will horrify the jury.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

ehmunro said:


> When all is said done Kobe will be murdered by Darko Milicic in a public restroom in Minneapolis Airport after accidentally making a pass at him as a result of eating the tex-mex barbecue in San Antonio. And Darko won't be convicted because a Kobe-Vanessa Hudgens sex tape will be discovered during the trial, and the site of Kobe getting pegged while dressed in drag will horrify the jury.


 Methinks you are just waiting for the Darko shoe to drop before you make millions off of a video.....


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

The reason he is so highly regarded and compared to Jordan is because his skills are comparable and probably superior to Jordan's skills at any point in his career. Jordan was just a freak and his athleticism and explosiveness was on a level Kobe will never know. Waiting for Kobe to put together a Jordan-like legacy is pointless because he just doesn't have it athletically. That shouldn't take away from his own legacy.


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> The reason he is so highly regarded and compared to Jordan is *because his skills are comparable and probably superior to Jordan's skills at any point in his career*. Jordan was just a freak and his athleticism and explosiveness was on a level Kobe will never know. Waiting for Kobe to put together a Jordan-like legacy is pointless because he just doesn't have it athletically. That shouldn't take away from his own legacy.



Say what?


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## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

Jordan23Forever said:


> You're all over he place, aznzen, but let's address your claims:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL, how folks can come back after J23F brings facts to the table I'll never know.:clap2:


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Air Jordan 23 said:


> LOL, how folks can come back after J23F brings facts to the table I'll never know.:clap2:


Off course you won't...


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> The reason he is so highly regarded and compared to Jordan is because his skills are comparable *and probably superior to Jordan's skills at any point in his career*.


What a joke.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

Dozens of players have similar "skills" to Jordan; none have a similar level of consistent productivity.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Kobe has every basketball skill that Jordan had and then some. He had the creativity with the ball whether in the air or handling the ball and putting it on the ground. He has the mid-range game that Jordan had, going either direction and pulling up, back to the basket, whatever. I think Kobe's handles are actually better than Jordan's handles were (he developed them a lot while running the offense for the title teams), and Kobe has more range than Jordan ever did. Kobe has the post game that Jordan did. He has the same mindset as well. They both approached the game the same way. 

Yet Jordan was still clearly superior, because he was just a level quicker, faster and more explosive. That's why Jordan's statistical efficiency when he lost a step of his athleticism was about like Kobe's is now. It's fairly obvious to me, which is why these discussions are pretty pointless. Kobe is not going to get any more athletic and Jordan's legacy is finished. 

It is why people hold Kobe in such high regard though, because his basketball skills demand such a high level of respect.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Kobe has every basketball skill that Jordan had and then some. He had the creativity with the ball whether in the air or handling the ball and putting it on the ground. He has the mid-range game that Jordan had, going either direction and pulling up, back to the basket, whatever. I think Kobe's handles are actually better than Jordan's handles were (he developed them a lot while running the offense for the title teams), and Kobe has more range than Jordan ever did. Kobe has the post game that Jordan did. He has the same mindset as well. They both approached the game the same way.
> 
> Yet Jordan was still clearly superior, because he was just a level quicker, faster and more explosive. That's why Jordan's statistical efficiency when he lost a step of his athleticism was about like Kobe's is now. It's fairly obvious to me, which is why these discussions are pretty pointless. Kobe is not going to get any more athletic and Jordan's legacy is finished.
> 
> It is why people hold Kobe in such high regard though, because his basketball skills demand such a high level of respect.


Your last 2 posts have been excellent


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## Diophantos (Nov 4, 2004)

I disagree about Kobe's skills being superior to Jordan's. He clearly has more range on his jumper, but I don't think he's as good from 15 feet in, which includes finishing at the basket and overall post game. Jordan was just so physical in the paint; it's the reason why he would never been as bothered by a guy like Tayshaun Prince (04 finals) as Kobe was. Part of that is pure athleticism (where he had an edge on Kobe), part of that is "skills", and part of that seems to be more of an inclination on Jordan's part to mix it up down there.

I certainly don't think the only difference between Kobe and Jordan is that Jordan got luckier in the genetic lottery.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Kobe has every basketball skill that Jordan had and then some. He had the creativity with the ball whether in the air or handling the ball and putting it on the ground. He has the mid-range game that Jordan had, going either direction and pulling up, back to the basket, whatever. I think Kobe's handles are actually better than Jordan's handles were (he developed them a lot while running the offense for the title teams), and Kobe has more range than Jordan ever did. Kobe has the post game that Jordan did. He has the same mindset as well. They both approached the game the same way.


Jordan had better footwork than Kobe. Was a better post player (I love it when Kobe fans try to assert that Kobe is equal to Jordan as a post player -- amusing, really). Better passer. Better off the ball. Better team defender. Better midrange shooter. Better rebounder.


Only deluded people would try to reduce the difference between Kobe and Jordan to mere athleticism, but I guess that's a convenient argument for some. I can show you things with footwork that Jordan did that Kobe has literally *never* done, or cannot do nearly as quickly or fluidly. But you cannot show me the opposite. The same goes for many other areas of the game. About handles and range you'll get no argument, though it should be noted that Jordan was the best handling 2 in the league from '85-'93, and could perform certain ballhandling maneuvers (reverse dribble at full speed, between the legs at full speed to change directions etc.) better than Kobe can; he was also more fundamentally sound with his handle, rarely getting ripped the way Kobe often does. But Kobe is better in an "And-1" sense because that's the basketball culture today. And I guess that's all that counts to some people. Jordan got to wherever he wanted on the court whenever he wanted to get there, and that's really all that matters to me.

Really, the only true advantage that actually means anything (i.e., that shows up on the court) is Kobe's range. In every other area -- from passing, to rebounding, to defense, to footwork, to post game, to off the ball game -- he is slightly to significantly worse than Jordan was. I honestly don't see how anyone who's seen both in their prime extensively could argue otherwise.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> 1. Jordan had better footwork than Kobe.
> 
> 2. Was a better post player (I love it when Kobe fans try to assert that Kobe is equal to Jordan as a post player -- amusing, really).
> 
> ...


1. No and you have proof to say other wise.

2. Yes. Jordan was stronger and was quite better in the post.

3. This is laughable. (And don't give me stats) just because jordan may have average 1 or 2 more assist per game more than Kobe on some seasons doesn't mean he's a better passer.

4. Yes there is a decent edge for Jordan in his prime.

5. No....(And do not quote FG% to state your claim unless you are willing to do the hard work of seperating both Kobe's and Jordan's fg% so that it only show the fg% of mid range shots. For you to suade me and any other skeptic on this board, their has to be at least a 6% difference) You probably already posted those stats in you last posts. If so, please repost them and I will gradly change my opinion if they meat my criteria.

6. Highly debatable......

7. Highly laughable. This is why there are rumours of you wearing autographed Jordan underware.

8. didn't you just say that jordan has some moves that Kobe can't do?

9. didn't you just say that we'll will not receive an argument from you about handles? make up your mind. is kobe better, the same or worse? Also, do you have any stats to show he was the best during 83-93? 

10. YOU MOST BE OUT OF YOUR MIND!! As if kobe never crossed up any body

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/B0ECDmZOvtI"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/B0ECDmZOvtI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object> I think this officialy ends your handles argument.

11. It's still handles isn't it?

12. When ever he wanted too? Ohh yeah I forgot, you're wearing Jordan's underwear.

13. since this is an open forum, you have to decide when the argument has been won because as long as you keep on posting, we'll post also


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

I stopped reading when I saw you say that it was "highly debatable" that Jordan was a better rebounder than Kobe. News flash: Jordan was a *significantly* superior rebounder. He had a better nose for the ball and read it better coming off the glass, better footwork in terms of positioning and boxing out, better hands for holding onto boards, and was far more tenacious on the glass.

Even now, when Kobe's team *needs* help on the boards, Kobe is not able to provide that. Jordan's team from '96 and '97 did not need help on the glass (with Rodman, the league's leading rebounder, and Pippen/Longley at 6-7 rpg), yet he grabbed 10+ rebounds *17 times* (regular season only) at age *33-34*. Kobe's team needs help on the boards these last couple of years and he's grabbed 10+ rebounds a grand total of *5 times* at age *27-28*. 

Jordan in '96 and '97 (again, at age 33-34) grabbed 4+ offensive boards (harder to get than defensive boards) a total of *15 times*. Kobe, these last two seasons at age 27-28, has grabbed 4+ offensive boards *2 times*.


But yeah, you're right -- highly debatable. :lol: Kobe is apparently the only star player in history whose alleged "skills" don't actually show up on the court. He's so good that he's transcended the game and doesn't have to, you know, actually *do anything* for his mindless fans to attribute super powers to him.

What a joke. Seriously. Perhaps I'll indulge you more than you've merited and address the rest of your post later. This will suffice for now.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Kobe has a better handle. With hands that are small compared to Jordan's, he loses the ball in traffic at times. He doesn't have the same control or grip over the ball that MJ did. Jordan's handle was a little looser, likely related to his enormous hands. Still effective, but not as tight. 


Believe it or not, your ability to handle the basketball greatly impacts your footwork. These two things go hand and hand. Kobe, with the tighter handle, has performed moves that Jordan never displayed. Attacking baseline, picking up your dribble, ball high, and splitting two defenders with a spin. Kobe has performed this extremely difficult move at least 7 or 8 times in the last few seasons. His footwork in the post is better than Jordan's, he has more counters. Jordan was a lot stronger at holding position down there, but Kobe gets around that with even better footwork. Kobe can shot-fake 3 or 4 times then spin his pivot, without sliding it, and still hit the jumper. 



Kobe wins- handle, 3-ball and range, footwork, and has the better left.

Jordan wins- finishing around the hoop, rebounding, slightly better passer, better defender, more effective/consistent post game. 

I am not sure who has the better mid-range game.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

bballlife said:


> Kobe has a better handle. With hands that are small compared to Jordan's, he loses the ball in traffic at times. He doesn't have the same control or grip over the ball that MJ did. Jordan's handle was a little looser, likely related to his enormous hands. Still effective, but not as tight.


And? Can Kobe get to where he wants on the floor as effectively as Jordan could? Again, Kobe has a better handle in the "And-1" sense, but what does that really mean, anyway?



> Believe it or not, your ability to handle the basketball greatly impacts your footwork. These two things go hand and hand. Kobe, with the tighter handle, has performed moves that Jordan never displayed. Attacking baseline, picking up your dribble, ball high, and splitting two defenders with a spin. Kobe has performed this extremely difficult move at least 7 or 8 times in the last few seasons. His footwork in the post is better than Jordan's, he has more counters. Jordan was a lot stronger at holding position down there, but Kobe gets around that with even better footwork. Kobe can shot-fake 3 or 4 times then spin his pivot, without sliding it, and still hit the jumper.


First of all, I've seen Jordan perform all of the moves you're describing here (if I'm understanding them correctly) and perform them better. In all my years watching Kobe, I've never seen him do a *single thing* with respect to footwork that I didn't see Jordan do first, and do better. Your "better footwork and more counters in the post" remark is similarly risible -- seriously, you've got to be kidding.

In fact, if you can post a *single clip* of Kobe doing something you believe Jordan's never done (such as the moves mentioned above), then please do so and I will guarantee you that I can post clips of Jordan doing the same. The same doesn't hold true in reverse, however; I can post moves of Jordan's that I've never seen Kobe do. Kobe studied the Jordan footwork repertoire extensively (I'm talking specific footwork moves, here), which is why he's so good. But he's still the student, not the teacher. 

So rather than merely *asserting* (a Kobe fan's _raison d'etre_, apparently), how about you get to, you know, *proving*. Show me some of these moves you speak of. I won't hold my breath.



> Kobe wins- handle, 3-ball and range, footwork, and has the better left.


Again, whatever advantage he has in terms of handle is irrelevant, since it doesn't translate to better play on the floor (just like Hot Sauce's handle doesn't, or he;d be in the NBA). His range is a given, and that definitely shows up on the floor. Footwork there's *no way* that Kobe takes, sorry. Just no way. And I'm not sure where you get "a better left," either -- are you talking dribbling or finishing? If you're talking dribbling, you may have a slight case; if you're talking finishing with the left hand, no way in hell do you have any sort of case. Evidence upon request.



> I am not sure who has the better mid-range game.


Kobe's probably the 3rd or 4th best midrange player I've ever seen, behind Jordan, Bird, and possibly Dirk. No way is Kobe's midrange game better than Jordan's or Bird's.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Jordan23Forever said:


> And? Can Kobe get to where he wants on the floor as effectively as Jordan could? Again, Kobe has a better handle in the "And-1" sense, but what does that really mean, anyway?



No, Jordan was better at getting to the basket, mainly because of his superior athleticism, but a player's handle comes into play in other situations. (Setting up or creating your own shot, anywhere on the court, and playmaking)
If you are strictly looking at one skill, the ability to handle the basketball, Kobe wins. 




> of all, I've seen Jordan perform all of the moves you're describing here (if I'm understanding them correctly) and perform them better. In all my years watching Kobe, I've never seen him do a *single thing* with respect to footwork that I didn't see Jordan do first, and do better. Your "better footwork and more counters in the post" remark is similarly risible -- seriously, you've got to be kidding.


I only have my opinion, based off of watching a majority of both careers. Off the top of my head, I can honestly say I have seen Kobe perform at least 4-5 moves, like the one I noted, that Jordan never displayed. Kobe has a few advantages over Jordan in that he started playing basketball at an earlier age, (I believe) played soccer growing up, and had the luxury of studying some of the greatest NBA players of all time. 




> fact, if you can post a *single clip* of Kobe doing something you believe Jordan's never done (such as the moves mentioned above), then please do so and I will guarantee you that I can post clips of Jordan doing the same. The same doesn't hold true in reverse, however; I can post moves of Jordan's that I've never seen Kobe do. Kobe studied the Jordan footwork repertoire extensively (I'm talking specific footwork moves, here), which is why he's so good. But he's still the student, not the teacher.


I don’t edit video but If I come across a clip, I will be sure to pm you. On the opposite side, I would love to see a move that Jordan did that Kobe has never done. Kobe studied Jordan and a lot of other players, in Italy as well as the United States. Is it so hard to fathom that Kobe had more exposure to study things like footwork? 




> , whatever advantage he has in terms of handle is irrelevant, since it doesn't translate to better play on the floor (just like Hot Sauce's handle doesn't, or he;d be in the NBA). His range is a given, and that definitely shows up on the floor. Footwork there's *no way* that Kobe takes, sorry. Just no way. And I'm not sure where you get "a better left," either -- are you talking dribbling or finishing? If you're talking dribbling, you may have a slight case; if you're talking finishing with the left hand, no way in hell do you have any sort of case. Evidence upon request.





It is not irrelevant and it does translate, to several things, shooting off the dribble, mid-range attack, and so on. Kobe’s ability with his left is superior to Jordan’s, overall. Jordan might have finished slightly better with it, but overall Kobe takes it. Never in Jordan’s career did we see him do things like shoot a floater with his left from the ft line. Kobe did, and he did it over the best interior defender in the NBA, Tim Duncan.


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## kzero (Apr 30, 2006)

J23F: http://youtube.com/watch?v=5Rwo68Wyu5Q


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

kzero said:


> J23F: http://youtube.com/watch?v=5Rwo68Wyu5Q


Watching that clip made me wonder: would MJ's game be the same had he play in the zone defense era?

Kobe often sees doubleteams in the perimeter (spetially when he gest hot). Jordan didn't.


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

i like this one better

<param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eoeFk90i6fU"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eoeFk90i6fU" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="375" height="325"></embed></object>


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

here's some left hand clips of kobe, just a couple for the fans.

forward to 1:20, one hand (left) 3pt half court
<param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eFS2Pm4KOSg"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eFS2Pm4KOSg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="375" height="325"></embed></object>

left handed fadeaway three
<param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vukMoNEtkBQ"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vukMoNEtkBQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="375" height="325"></embed></object>
left handed floater after spltitting a double team, buzzer beater
<param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LkFKf94mPxA"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LkFKf94mPxA" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="375" height="325"></embed></object>
another half court 3pt
<param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/T1cmnv9SHgM"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/T1cmnv9SHgM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="375" height="325"></embed></object>


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/quuQPaU5OhY"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/quuQPaU5OhY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


Left to right crossover followed by one dribble between the legs into a layup.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

^^^^ I wish you guys would just stop...

You are only fueling Fan-Boy's fire... He's bound to comeback with a dozen videos of Micahel Jordan hitting left-handed 3pointers!!!!!....

:biggrin:


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## King Sancho Fantastic (Jul 19, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> ^^^^ I wish you guys would just stop...
> 
> You are only fueling Fan-Boy's fire... He's bound to comeback with a dozen videos of Micahel Jordan hitting left-handed 3pointers!!!!!....
> 
> :biggrin:


nahh hed find some crazy stat showing the percentage of shots Micheal took with his left hand on tuesday night games against zone ds between the ages of 27-29
<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d170/cirrocuban/gooding_jordan.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

CubanLaker said:


> nahh hed find some crazy stat showing the percentage of shots Micheal took with his left hand on tuesday night games against zone ds between the ages of 27-29


Although Fan-Boy tries his hardest to win an unwinnable battle, what makes me sad for the poor soul is the fact that he will never understand the difference between Jordan hitting a buzzer-beater over Craig Ehlo (one of the most propaganded (sp?) moments in Jordan's career) and Kobe hitting a game-winner 3pointer over 2 defenders...

Dude doesn't know that the game Jordan played is not the same anymore...

He keeps in mind the stuff his older brother (or father) kept telling him about Michael Jordan, and he sticks to it like a fly on ****. He just doesn't understand that all he heard about Jordan is subjective. 

He kept begging for proof of Kobe doing something that Jordan never did. Recent posts have been of good example. I guess he will come back with Jordan's mid-air-torsion-layup against the Lakers in the Finals... without adressing the real issue...

And the real issue is that Kobe Brynat is damned close to Michael Jordan.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Jordan had better footwork than Kobe. Was a better post player (I love it when Kobe fans try to assert that Kobe is equal to Jordan as a post player -- amusing, really). Better passer. Better off the ball. Better team defender. Better midrange shooter. Better rebounder.


He did not have better footwork, and did not have better post game. He might have been a better passer, although both were the best or one of the best passing shooting guards of their eras. All the other "skills" you listed are largely dependent on athleticism and quickness and also team philosophy. Kobe was regarded as one of the best defenders in the league in the right system. 



Jordan23Forever said:


> I can show you things with footwork that Jordan did that Kobe has literally *never* done, or cannot do nearly as quickly or fluidly. But you cannot show me the opposite. The same goes for many other areas of the game.


I disagree. Kobe can do anything that Jordan could do just as fluidly, but just not as quick. 



Jordan23Forever said:


> Jordan got to wherever he wanted on the court whenever he wanted to get there, and that's really all that matters to me.


You'd be delusional to deny that his unworldly quickness and explosiveness didn't play a huge part in him getting "wherever he wanted, whenever he wanted".


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

Jordan23Forever said:


> Kobe's probably the 3rd or 4th best midrange player I've ever seen, behind Jordan, Bird, and possibly Dirk. No way is Kobe's midrange game better than Jordan's or Bird's.


Cassell and Rip Hamilton have the best mid-range jump shots in the NBA


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

and this one is just straight insane

</param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nWk9wFDTIMw" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="375" height="325"></embed></object>


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> ^^^^ I wish you guys would just stop...
> 
> You are only fueling Fan-Boy's fire... He's bound to comeback with a dozen videos of Micahel Jordan hitting left-handed 3pointers!!!!!....
> 
> :biggrin:


Since Jordan did eveything better, I am expecting Jordan fadeaway half and full court shots. Can't wait to see them. :biggrin:


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Roscoe Sheed said:


> Cassell and Rip Hamilton have the best mid-range jump shots in the NBA


 lol.


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> lol.


You laugh, but those two are widely regarded to be fantastic mid-range shooters


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Roscoe Sheed said:


> You laugh, but those two are widely regarded to be fantastic mid-range shooters


 but not the best. I would let Melo, Wade, Bryant, Nash, Arenas, Dirk, Davis, and even Marbury take the last shot of the game from a midrange shot before them!


Let alone Reggie who is the best shooter of all time.


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> but not the best. I would let Melo, Wade, Bryant, Nash, Arenas, Dirk, Davis, and even Marbury take the last shot of the game from a midrange shot before them!
> 
> 
> Let alone Reggie who is the best shooter of all time.


I agree.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/k56E-3Sf0Fg"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/k56E-3Sf0Fg" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Kobe's two buzzer beaters.


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## Jordan23Forever (May 14, 2005)

I like how Kobe fans are on a video posting barrage, acting as though any of those videos (besides the left-handed 3-pointer, which to my knowledge Jordan has never done) show anything that Jordan didn't do. I'll post this evening examining this in depth with evidence.

All these videos of 3's are nice, but I've already conceded that Kobe has better range. When Kobe gets hot from deep, he shoots from 24-27 feet the way Jordan in the zone used to shoot from 18-23 feet. It makes a difference on the court, and is probably Kobe's only real advantage, since things like left-handed 3's are novelties, and pretty much useless in game situations.


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## Laker Superstar 34 (Aug 8, 2005)

Ok, I'm a huge Lakers Fan but if you guys don't mind me posting, well of course you don't mind.

There's no reason to compare MJ to Kobe, mainly because of the fact that MJ played in the 80's and 90's most of the time. There wasn't the zone defenses and such. Kobe has played from late 90's into the 2000's. They have played in different eras. Jordan's era was great for him since there wasn't that great big Shooting Guard and there wasn't the Zone defense. Heck, there was a lot more room for players just to go and play and if you don't believe me, just look at the time that Jordan shoved Bryon Russell against the Jazz in the Finals. If Kobe did that, there would be a suspension and fine waiting for him, just look at his flailing arms trouble.

With that said, in my honest oppinion, neither are comparable even though some skills are similar. They're in different eras, and to me, different positions. Yeah, they both played the 2-Guard, but I see Jordan as the Paul Pierce or Lebron James type, as in a G/F. I'm guessing there's a reason for Jordan to come back as a SF for the Wizards when his athletic ability was down from his prime. I mean, he still could be that post presence he was, and he certainly could hit that mid range shot. He just didn't have the lift or explosiveness he once had. I see Kobe as a 6'6"-6'7" Combo Guard. Yeah he can or could do some of the things Jordan did in the post, but Kobe has tried to master a different skill set. Yeah, Kobe has a post game and that, but his game is on the perimeter so much more. Yeah, Jordan could hit a three at least to save his life, but his game was just outside of the block or outside on the elbow.

Basically to sum it up, Kobe and MJ are similar in some skills, either superior or inferior in others, but overally it's that they played in different eras and different playing style of the 2-Guard. So it's impossible to compare them the way everyone has. To me, Kobe's the best ever Combo 2-Guard to play the game and has revolutionized that position, but Jordan is the best ever G/F to ever play the game.


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

Jordan23Forever said:


> I like how Kobe fans are on a video posting barrage, acting as though any of those videos (besides the left-handed 3-pointer, which to my knowledge Jordan has never done) show anything that Jordan didn't do. I'll post this evening examining this in depth with evidence.
> 
> All these videos of 3's are nice, but I've already conceded that Kobe has better range. When Kobe gets hot from deep, he shoots from 24-27 feet the way Jordan in the zone used to shoot from 18-23 feet. It makes a difference on the court, and is probably Kobe's only real advantage, since things like left-handed 3's are novelties, and pretty much useless in game situations.


the point is we are challanging you to a vid post off. So far you have not posted anything to support your claim. Show us some video were Jordan does the same stuff.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

The One said:


> the point is we are challanging you to a *vid post off*. So far you have not posted anything to support your claim. Show us some video were Jordan does the same stuff.


Heck, this would make a great thread: "Jordan vs Kobe - Vid Post Off". J23F would put up videos of Jordan moves that Kobe can't do. Then Kobe fans would try to prove him wrong. Then the other way around...


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Heck, this would make a great thread: "Jordan vs Kobe - Vid Post Off". J23F would put up videos of Jordan moves that Kobe can't do. Then Kobe fans would try to prove him wrong. Then the other way around...


Well that's the point. J23F hasn't posted **** to support his claim. Their are no moves that he can show that Kobe did not do or did not do some form of it. Where are you J23F?! I guess you are out chasing Cuba Gooding Jr. since he has your underwear.


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> but not the best. I would let Melo, Wade, Bryant, Nash, Arenas, Dirk, Davis, and even Marbury take the last shot of the game from a midrange shot before them!
> 
> 
> Let alone Reggie who is the best shooter of all time.


Reggie was NOT as good as Rip at mid-range shooting. He was a better 3-point shooter, but not better from the mid-range.

Also, I'm not necessarily talking about last second shots- I'm talking about consistent shooting from MID-RANGE throughout one's career. I've never seen any better than Cassell or Rip at that skill. Other players may be better overall as players, but not as mid-range shooters


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Roscoe Sheed said:


> Reggie was NOT as good as Rip at mid-range shooting. He was a better 3-point shooter, but not better from the mid-range.
> 
> Also, I'm not necessarily talking about last second shots- I'm talking about consistent shooting from MID-RANGE throughout one's career. I've never seen any better than Cassell or Rip at that skill. Other players may be better overall as players, but not as mid-range shooters


Hamilton has NEVER shot more than 56% TS whereas Miller AVERAGED 61% Reggie was one of the best ever, up there with Bird and Jordan, probably better at the midrange game than them.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

If we are judging players by who hits fadeaway 3 pointers in traffic then maybe Kobe wins...hahaha


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> Hamilton has NEVER shot more than 56% TS whereas Miller AVERAGED 61% Reggie was one of the best ever, up there with Bird and Jordan, probably better at the midrange game than them.


Okay, since I don't follow stats like some of the nerds on this board, what it the TS?

If it takes into account 3-pointers, it does not support your argument. I'm talking strictly about mid-range Js, not 3-pointers, not lay ups, not dunks, etc


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

compsciguy78 said:


> If we are judging players by who hits fadeaway 3 pointers in traffic then maybe Kobe wins...hahaha


hahahaha, what a funny guy ................... pause


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

Undefeated82 said:


> hahahaha, what a funny guy ................... pause


............. *not!*


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

Kobe


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

Just look at all the youtube videos and you'll see kobe does everything mj did but better


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Roscoe Sheed said:


> Okay, since I don't follow stats like some of the nerds on this board, what it the TS?
> 
> If it takes into account 3-pointers, it does not support your argument. I'm talking strictly about mid-range Js, not 3-pointers, not lay ups, not dunks, etc


It takes into account the abilities to shoot the ball in a beneficial manner to their team. Sorry, there is not stat to use to say mid range jumpers but I can guaruntee that Miller was better.


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## someone (Jul 17, 2007)

Give me a call when Kobe actually shoots .500 from the floor.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

*Re: Kobe Bryant vs. Scottie Pippen*



Pioneer10 said:


> If you want to simply ignore all the first team defense accolades for Pippen then I'm not really sure what there is to argue about. Pippen is considered by some to be the greatest help defender in the history of the game matched with being a top notch individual defender as well. Marion is the best of Phoenix but he's get overrated as a defender because Phoenix has a plenty of poor defenders.


To a degree, being named to the NBA All-Defensive Team is based partly on reputation. Like a lot of former perennial members, Scottie Pippen had at least a couple of seasons where his defense slipped noticeably and he still was being cited based on reputation. In fact, it's fair to say Pippen was a questionable choice in 1997-98 (where he missed roughly half the season), and he definitely did not deserve his nomination in the 1999 lockout season and the 1999-2000 season. 

Pippen was a great passing lane defender who could be posted up and scored upon by standout small forwards; that doesn't mean he was horrible overall by any means. Shawn Marion is a better interior defender who doesn't play the passing lanes as well as Pippen; that doesn't mean he's overrated, either. You're taking too much stock in an award that historically has been based to various degrees on reputation. 



Pioneer10 said:


> Again if Marion is such an exceptional defender: he hasn't made even one all nba defensive team and he's playing for a team that gets plenty of publicity with a teammates that boast two MVP trophies and ROY plus All-Star appearances.


Marion plays on a team that isn't regarded highly for its defense; again, more than any other designation the All-Defensive Team awards seem to play more into reputation than anything. Again, I'm failing to see how this means that Marion is not a good defensive player (especially when he generally is regarded as being a good to exceptional defender).

The bottom line is that Marion and Pippen are the same caliber of player -- both score the same amount, both are fine defenders (with slightly different skill sets). Marion is the better rebounder and interior defender; Pippen is the better ball-handler and passing-lane defender. There is no drop-off between choosing one or the other; if anything, Pippen is the one being overrated if some people actually think he can be compared in some way with Kobe Bryant.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

*The Scottie Pippen revisionism*



kflo said:


> the pippen guarded the best player is basically a myth. pippen guarded opposing 3's almost all the time. they didn't simply put pippen on the opposing teams best players. he was best equipped to guard 3's. pippen had greater overall defensive responsibility after probably '91 or '92 because the bulls were better off that way, but not because he simply always guarded the other teams top gun.


I agree. I never understood why some people continually want to revise Scottie Pippen's career to being something it quite wasn't. From misrepresentations of his play to outright lies (such as the 1993-94 season, where he "led" Chicago to the East finals when in reality the team got knocked out of the second round) you would think Pippen was more like Julius Erving or Elgin Baylor than the Shawn Marion-level player he truly was. I always got the feeling some people did this in a way to minimize Michael Jordan's dominance.


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