# On the table? Portland / Dallas trade



## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

I am pulling this out of the CSMN thread... for a more open discssion

The gang on CSMN seem to think this is a deal on the table... Mike Rice quotes a source in Dallas


They keep saying Sabas is in the deal... but according to my math he can not be in it without filler being returned to us...

Keep in mind Bonzi is BYC until middle September...



Portland trades Damon $14.625 mill + Bonzi $6.875 mill + (Sabas $7.85 mill ???) = $21.5 mill works CBA wise ($29.35 mill Does not work CBA wise)
Dallas trades NVE $10.9 mill + LaFrentz $8.4 mill = $19.3 mill

$21.5 mill - $3.44 BYC of Bonzi = We can take back $18.06 if done before middle of September.... + 115% + $100K = $20.8 mill
so it works even now as BYC...

This saves us $2.325 mill if Sabas is not included and $4.65 mill with Luxury tax costs


Interesting.... I am not so sure how I feel about it right now...
I liked getting Nash better... but hey we moved Damon
NVE was supposedly a locker cancer in Denver, but he seemed to fit in just fine in Dallas

PG NVE, McInnis
SG DA, Woods
SF ?, Patterson, Outlaw
PF Wallace, Randolph
C Davis, LaFrentz, Boomtje


Not bad... not great...


Van Exel, age 32, does have an expiring contract so it speeds up the salary dump of Damon, and its about $10 mill.... so it a step down in salary... 
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/nick_van_exel/index.html?nav=page

LaFrentz, age 27 runs through the 2006/07 season
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/raef_lafrentz/index.html?nav=page

we all know of their quality play...


:yes: I think I would do it... where do I sign?


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Nick makes me want to puke.


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## NateBishop3 (Jul 22, 2003)

*I'd do it*

and here's why...

A) We get rid of Damon (that's a big one for me)

B) Sabonis is probably retiring (although CSMN said he might also return)

C) I agree with the guys on CSMN, when they say Van Exel finally gives us a guy who can score when we need points. Right now we don't have a guy who can absolutely be counted on to score. That was our problem in stretches last season.

D) Regardless of his softness, La Frentz gives us a center, and we need that. We have ZERO depth at the center position next season if Sabonis retires again.

E) I think everyone has forgotten how much we hated Bonzi at times last season. The guy is lazy and he has a bad attitude. If we can get rid of him, and bring something of value back in return, I say do it. It would be nice if Finley was included in the deal though.

F) Did I mention we GET RID OF DAMON???

I say go!!


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

I don't want to see us make a change just to make a change. Is Wells that hated? NVE has just as bad an attitude as Wells. He's another shoot first PG with a bad attitude and a questionable work ethic. No thanks.

As for LaFrentz, he's a big tall stick of warm butter. Terrible deal for us.


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## bfan1 (Mar 5, 2003)

*I think*

this deal stinks.

Bonzi is worth more. Lafrentz!!!! ???? Come on!

I HATE this deal!

I agree-keep Bonzi and add DA-then maybe....


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## The Enigma (May 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> Nick makes me want to puke.


Nick was the heart and soul of that team last season, when it counted most (In the Playoffs).
_If not for him the Mavs would not have made it out of the first round._

Nash is indeed the starter at PG (Nick actually asked to come off the bench), Dirk is the "star" but it is Nick who is the big game player (the difference maker) on that team.

During last seasons playoffs his heart alone gave his teammates confidence that they could win (_big shot after big shot, this guy is the most clutch PG in the entire league_).

I much rather have him than Nash (though either one would be nice).


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## The Enigma (May 10, 2003)

*Re: I think*



> Originally posted by <b>bfan1</b>!
> this deal stinks.
> 
> Bonzi is worth more. Lafrentz!!!! ???? Come on!
> ...


I agree.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

It would definatley have to be DA, but i guess i would do it if Wells was there instead...

We get rid of Damon and thats great. 

Raef simply had a horrible year last year, he is better than that

NVE is great in the clutch. He is also a very good passer and 3 point shooter. In regular season he averaged 4.3 assists in only 27 minutes. 


After this we would have to sign a SF(Stephen Jackson anyone?)

PG-NVE(32mpg)/McInnis(16mpg)
SG-D.Anderson(32mpg)/Q.Woods(16mpg)
SF-S.Jackson(28mpg)/R.Wallace(16mpg)/Q.Woods(4mpg)
PF-R.Wallace(20mpg)/Z.Randolph(28mpg)
C-R.LaFrentz(28mpg)/D.Davis(20mpg)

That team could take 5th spot in the west

All in all, i would do this trade


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> Nick was the heart and soul of that team last season, when it counted most (In the Playoffs).
> _If not for him the Mavs would not have made it out of the first round._
> 
> ...


Nick Van Exel is a punk. Wait...actually he's a punk who shoots a career 36% from 3 point range. Actually, check his stats...very comparable to Damon's career numbers.

Damon

35 mpg, 14.6 pts, 6.8 assts, 3.7 reb, 1.2 stls, .412 fg %, .356 3pt %, .822 ft%, 2.6 to

NVE

34.7 mpg, 15.5 pts, 7.2 assts, 2.8 reb, .9 stl, .407 fg%, .357 3pt%, .764 ft%, 2.2 to

Where's the advantage? slightly better scoring from NVE, but check it out...he averages 14 shots per game to damon's 13.1 which means they're basically even. Slight advantage to NVE in assists. Slight rebounding advantage to Damon. Even Steven. These guys are the same. 

He has one good playoffs run and suddenly we're supposed to think he's going to lead us to the promised land? I don't think so. Teams with shoot first PG's don't win championships. And we've already got one who's stats compare quite evenly.


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## Peaceman (Jan 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> 
> 
> Nick Van Exel is a punk. Wait...actually he's a punk who shoots a career 36% from 3 point range. Actually, check his stats...very comparable to Damon's career numbers.
> ...



Maybe this is a salary and image move. Bonzi and Damon have had their troubles. NVE is in the last year of his contract, so we can cut him loose next year or resign him cheaper. LaFrentz doesn't fit Dallas style of play. You can't have a soft center with perimeter players who don't play straight up defense. He will play better in Portlands system, but I do see why people don't like him. I'm not a fan of his either. I would do this deal if Dallas through in a 1st round pick.


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## baler (Jul 16, 2003)

"Where's the advantage? slightly better scoring from NVE, but check it out...he averages 14 shots per game to damon's 13.1 which means they're basically even. Slight advantage to NVE in assists. Slight rebounding advantage to Damon. Even Steven. These guys are the same."

Here's an advantage......NVE can get you points when you need them. He is clutch and always has been. Here's another.......he's not in drug rehab. And another.......much better handles, can always get his shot off. More you say........he can make a layup. Alright, if you insist......he's not a midget. Sorry to all the little people of the world.


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## baler (Jul 16, 2003)

Dallas trades: PG Nick Van Exel (12.5 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 27.8 minutes) 
C Raef LaFrentz (9.3 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 23.4 minutes) 
Dallas receives: PG Damon Stoudamire (6.9 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 3.5 apg in 22.3 minutes) 
PF Dale Davis (7.4 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.3 minutes) 
Change in team outlook: -7.5 ppg, +2.1 rpg, and -0.4 apg. 

Portland trades: PG Damon Stoudamire (6.9 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 3.5 apg in 22.3 minutes) 
PF Dale Davis (7.4 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 1.2 apg in 29.3 minutes) 
Portland receives: PG Nick Van Exel (12.5 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 73 games) 
C Raef LaFrentz (9.3 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 69 games) 
Change in team outlook: +7.5 ppg, -2.1 rpg, and +0.4 apg. 

TRADE ACCEPTED

Due to Dallas and Portland being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. Dallas and Portland had to be no more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.




Thoughts??


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## Anima (Jun 3, 2003)

IMO Raef isn't a bad basketball player at all. Take away last year and his career averages are 12.9 PPG 7.7 RPG and 2.4 BPG but even with what he did last year his career averages are still over 12, 7, and 2. Also I think the advantage to Nick is he won't get caught with some pot in foil while going though an airport.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

There is no way I would do a Damon and DD for those 2...

the whole reason I see for doing this is getting a backup cetner in addition to DD.... and yes, getting rid of Damon for an expiring contract :banana: .. is a plus, Nash would be GM of the year.. just for that..

if I had to choose between DD ad LaFrentz.. I choose DD despite Raef younger age.... no question in my mind. DD is solid...

swapping Lafrentz and NVE for Damon and DD simply does not interest me.... getting rid of Damon and Bonzi for those 2 does....


although LAFrentz is considered soft.. as a 2nd string center the is a good one.. who on the FA market can youget to do equally what he does.. no one

we are in a bad spot here... Davis has no backup.. playing Sheed there adds to his minutes, and may contribute to an injury with added minutes. With an opponents big lineup we are toast.. we foul and we are dead meat.. we have no depth at PF/C spots.. only 3 reliables.. Z, DD and Sheed.. Boomtje will be down and out quickly


We can fill Bonzi's spot fairly easily... we already have Q who seems to be wanting more minutes... and there is always others to trade for a SG... or sign Stephen Jackson as a backup to DA who can also play SF...


I still do not see how Sabas contrat is added in there.. I think this is all a bunch of huey on Mike Rice's part...

no way Dallas does this... but I think it would be a good deal for us if they did...


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> 
> 
> Nick Van Exel is a punk. Wait...actually he's a punk who shoots a career 36% from 3 point range. Actually, check his stats...very comparable to Damon's career numbers.
> ...


You can't compare the two based off of those career numbers. Damon put up great numbers his first few years in the league, which helps those overall number out greatly. Van Exel, on the other hand, has had consistently good numbers throuough his career. He also has all those non-stat abilities, like leadership, energy, and clutch play.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

What? This deal is great for Portland...any deal that gets Damon traded is great.


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

*Your picture of Christ holding a uni*

Is deplorable..
On a much lesser scale,but nevertheless it bothers me,
is the bit about Sabas crying to the official..
particularly from a lug like Shaq.

I just don't like it one bit.


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## Storyteller (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Trader Bob</b>!
> 
> Van Exel, age 32, does have an expiring contract so it speeds up the salary dump of Damon, and its about $10 mill.... so it a step down in salary...


I'm not so sure about this. Doesn't Van Exel have a player's option next for 2004-05? Why would he opt out of making $24.5 million for two years when his value on the FA front would be much, much lower than that? So, actually, Portland adds a year of big salary by exchanging Damon for Van Exel.

I am not a big LaFrentz fan. I saw him play his first college game for Kansas (at the Wooden Classic in 1994) and looked very soft that day. He's done nothing in 9 years to change my impression.

Yes, I would love to exchange Damon for Van Exel, but to trade Wells for LaFrentz as part of the package? I might change my mind but right now my instinct tells me not to take this deal.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>So Cal Blazer Fan</b>!
> Doesn't Van Exel have a player's option next for 2004-05?


Well Damons runs through 2004/05 so I guess its a wash...




I was using NBAZone.nets.. salary charts

http://www.nbazone.net/teams/View_Salary.asp?TId=20
It may not be entirely accurate.. 

SCBF....
Can you tell me how Sabas would be included in this deal and make it work? I fail to see it?


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> I don't want to see us make a change just to make a change. Is Wells that hated? NVE has just as bad an attitude as Wells. He's another shoot first PG with a bad attitude and a questionable work ethic. No thanks.
> 
> As for LaFrentz, he's a big tall stick of warm butter. Terrible deal for us.


:yes: I agree with that post 100%!


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## Crazy Fan From Idaho (Dec 31, 2002)

*Re: Your picture of Christ holding a uni*



> Originally posted by <b>jackiejackal</b>!
> Is deplorable..
> On a much lesser scale,but nevertheless it bothers me,
> is the bit about Sabas crying to the official..
> ...


:nonono:

I agree 100% with Jackie. 

The avatar is extremely offensive to me.
The quote is merely annoying.


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## ebott (Jan 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>So Cal Blazer Fan</b>!
> 
> I'm not so sure about this. Doesn't Van Exel have a player's option next for 2004-05? Why would he opt out of making $24.5 million for two years when his value on the FA front would be much, much lower than that? So, actually, Portland adds a year of big salary by exchanging Damon for Van Exel.


Yep, that's what hoopshype and patricia's site both say. So from a cap flexability point of view this is a bad deal. Damon's deal is a year shorter than Van Exel's and La Frentz's deal goes until the end of time.

Talent wise it seems ok. Van Exel > Damon and La Frentz < Bonzi so it's pretty much even. I don't see it doing us any kind of long term good though. By the time Randolph and Woods have developed to the point where they're corner stone type guys Van Exel will be on his last leg and we'll be without a point guard yet again.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

But which is right...

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/dallas.htm

http://www.nbazone.net/teams/View_Salary.asp?TId=20

RealGM.com says he has 2 years left on his contract

Patricia's I guess I have an old link


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> What? This deal is great for Portland...any deal that gets Damon traded is great.


That's ridiculous. A trade of Damon for Vin Baker would be a disaster, and a trade for a bad, long-term contract would be a bad move.

Damon has his problems, for sure, and he might not be a starting PG for Portland, but he's only got 2 years left on his contract and trading him shouldn't be done unless they can get something worth more than the salary relief he'll give them in two seasons.

Coupling him with our second-best player for an aging, massively overpaid PG and a soft, massively overpaid undersized center would be a disaster.

Ed O.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Trader Bob</b>!
> But which is right...


He's got 2 years left after this one. When he was exhibiting his great leadership and clutch playing ability by whining his way out of Denver, he was talking like he would be willing to forget about the 2 option years, but when the trade occurred he (surprise!) decided that he still deserved the extra years that Denver had given him (much to their chagrine).

Ed O.


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## Anima (Jun 3, 2003)

> when the trade occurred he (surprise!) decided that he still deserved the extra years that Denver had given him (much to their chagrine)


Nope, after he was traded to Dallas Mark Cuben told him to keep his money.

I still don't think the Mavs/Blazers trade happens but I think this trade between the Mavs/Raps might even though I haven't heard a rumor about it.

Dallas trades: 
C Evan Eschmeyer (1.0 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 0.4 apg in 7.9 minutes) 
C Raef LaFrentz (9.3 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 23.4 minutes) 

Dallas receives: PF Antonio Davis (13.9 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 2.5 apg in 35.7 minutes) 
Change in team outlook: +3.6 ppg, +1.8 rpg, and +1.3 apg. 

The Mavs get a tougher guy to play center and those contract is 3 years shorter (but will be making almost 40 million over that time  ) then Raef's and the Raps get a center who is 8 years younger and a better scorer then A.D.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> He's got 2 years left after this one.
> 
> Ed O.


What is your source? ..... just curious


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Epadfield</b>!
> 
> Nope, after he was traded to Dallas Mark Cuben told him to keep his money.


NVE came out and said he wouldn't give up his option years BEFORE he was traded and Cuban said that. What was Mark supposed to say?

"Um... yeah. I know we just traded for a guy who organized a team boycott of practice... and a guy that had previously forced his way out of LA because he didn't like just feeding the post... and a guy that makes like $12m a year over the next two... but we traded for him fully expecting him to fulfill his pledge to forego the last two years of his contract."

I don't think that was going to happen.

Ed O.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Trader Bob</b>!
> 
> What is your source? ..... just curious


It's just a fact that I've known since shortly after he signed his deal... and Patricia Bender's site is in accord with my memory. Dan Issel (ignoring other Denver front office people) signed him to a $77m deal and NVE made noises about deferring or not picking up altogether the last two years of his deal... until shortly before he was traded, when he and his agent Tony Dutt said that he deserved the money and wouldn't give any of it back.

In fact, I've never seen a single source that's said any different until the one that was posted elsewhere on the board today.

Ed O.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

Thanks Ed... Patricia has always seemed reliable...

I just wish she would pay someone to do an easily navigatable web page 

and some basic web page designs are not hard to do at all


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## Anima (Jun 3, 2003)

My bad. He told him to keep the money from his deferrals. 

"Dutt said Van Exel agreed to some deferrals in his current contract. He declined to provide details. Van Exel had said he was willing to forego some of the guaranteed $26.5 million in the final two years of his contract."

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2002/0221/1338189.html

And (even though I hate to admit it) Ed's right :sour:. Van Exel has 3 years left.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

I am not so sure about this then...

any contracts over about $9 mill. need to be carefully analyzed for talent return as well as length of term...

we do not want to be hampered down the road for possible trades... the last few years have been very confining


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## Storyteller (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Trader Bob</b>!
> 
> SCBF....
> Can you tell me how Sabas would be included in this deal and make it work? I fail to see it?


According to my numbers, it doesn't work - but just barely.

Dallas could take back $26.25 million in salary. Wells + Sabonis + Stoudamire add up to $26.38 million. That's close enough that either:

1) My numbers are off enough that this deal could work

2) Another player at minimum salary could be added by Dallas to make the salaries match. Although I'm not sure who - they really don't have any minimum salary players that they can trade....


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

Well when I heard this trade last night, I was NOT enthused at all. I like\hate NVE. What he DOES bring you is a killer instinct, he steps up when you need it, not afraid to take the big shot, & can score at will. What I do NOT like about him is his propensity to shoot too much, his surly attitude & his age. I admire his play, he is a fierce competitor, however I think his situation id DAL is an ideal one for him. He is brought in as a spark plug, he is brought in TO SCORE. THAT is his designated role, & he performs it well. I would have serious concerns about how happy NVE would be on a POR team not vying for a championship, my guess is NOT AT ALL, AND how happy he would be performing PG duties, again NOT AT ALL. He has a scorers mentality, and works best when there are no constraints placed on him. So IMO, the negatives outweigh the positives in acquiring him.

As for LaFrentz, I don't mind him, however the cost POR acquires him for I DO MIND. Wells for LaFrentz? No Thanks. LaFrentz would be a good player for POR, he can shoot well, & is better than many on this board are giving him credit for. He IS NOT worth the HEFTY contract he has NOR is he worth trading Bonzi for though.

I have to believe that POR could do better than this. Substituting DA for Wells would make this more palatable for me, although I still feel NVE will be a problem here. He will not be happy in POR. As for the deal, as mentioned on CSMN, I sure hope POR is getting something else besided NVE & LAfrentz, like a 1st round pick or Josh Howard. Something... Anything.... Not that it would make this deal acceptable to me, it might just make me a tad less depressed..... maybe...


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

> By Trader Bob...
> Portland trades Damon $14.625 mill + Bonzi $6.875 mill + (Sabas $7.85 mill ???) = $21.5 mill works CBA wise ($29.35 mill Does not work CBA wise)
> Dallas trades NVE $10.9 mill + LaFrentz $8.4 mill = $19.3 mill
> 
> ...






> Originally posted by <b>So Cal Blazer Fan</b>!
> According to my numbers, it doesn't work - but just barely.
> 
> Dallas could take back $26.25 million in salary. Wells + Sabonis + Stoudamire add up to $26.38 million. That's close enough that either:
> ...



Do you mind showing me your numbers..
they send out $19.3 mill... *1.15 = $22.195 + $100K = $22.295 mill

Where is the extra $ coming from? Its just NVE and LaFrentz right?


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## antibody (Apr 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> As for the deal, as mentioned on CSMN, I sure hope POR is getting something else besided NVE & LAfrentz, like a 1st round pick or Josh Howard. Something... Anything.... Not that it would make this deal acceptable to me, it might just make me a tad less depressed..... maybe...


I couldn't agree more. Packaging Bonzi for a deal like that is not a good move for Portland. Why trade your second best player for those guys? Portland should just keep Bonzi if that's the kind of deals out there. I think along the same lines for Sheed. Why trade him for lesser value? I suppose you would if Portland is going to let him walk next year then you do what you can to get something in return.


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## Storyteller (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Trader Bob</b>!
> 
> Do you mind showing me your numbers..
> they send out $19.3 mill... *1.15 = $22.195 + $100K = $22.295 mill
> ...


 Oops! My bad....Must have hit a wrong number on the calculator...

Here are the salaries I have:

Van Exel: $10.913 million
LaFrentz: $8.179 million

Wells: $7.000 million
Sabonis: $7.000 million
Stoudamire: $12.375 million

That translates to Dallas taking in $26.375 million, but they can only take back $22.056 million. They need to send out another $4 million or so in salary. 

If Dallas sent Bradley ($4.5 million) as part of the package, the deal works.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Well, Bonzi for NVE and Lafrenz? Not as bad as you may think. Oops, did I forget to mention that we'd have to saddle Dallas with Stoudamire? 

If we are going to get anyone to take on Damon then we are gonna have to either expect garbage in return, or we are gonna have to entice them wiht a good player like Bonzi.

Our team is loded at the 2-3 postitions, especially if Wallace slides to the 3. We need a quality starting PG and a backup Center. NVE is one Lafrenz is the other. Yeah we have to then rely on Anderson as our SG, but which Tandem would you rather have?

Damon Stoudamire, Bonzi Wells and Rueben Boumje Boumje
or
Nick Van Exel, Derek Anderson and Raef Lafrenz


This also helps to clear some addition room for Woods to get some PT at the 2.

Getting rid of Damon and adding a quality PG is so so key in this deal. I like Bonzi, unfortunately he is the sacrificial Lamb to get rid of Damon. 

Lineup
PG NVE/McInnis
SG Anderson/Woods
SF Wallace/Patterson/Outlaw
PF Randolph/Wallace
C Davis/Lafrenz/RBB

It's a step in the right direction. Remember character is an issue now, and neither Damon or Bonzi are knocking people over with good reputations.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Schilly</b>!
> Yeah we have to then rely on Anderson as our SG, but which Tandem would you rather have?
> 
> Damon Stoudamire, Bonzi Wells and Rueben Boumje Boumje
> ...


This year? Probably the latter group, although that's not clear at all (I don't think NVE is a big step up over Damon, Wells is a LOT better than DA, and Wallace playing some 5 would give more minutes to both ZR (at the 4) and Qyntel (at the 3)).



> It's a step in the right direction. Remember character is an issue now, and neither Damon or Bonzi are knocking people over with good reputations.


I disagree that it's a step in the right direction. I'd say it's a step in the WRONG direction... one that is even worse than making no move at all.

Talent-wise, Portland loses. Bonzi is the best player in the deal in terms of potential and current game combo, NVE is the oldest but effective at a scarce position, and Raef and Damon tie for the most disappointing (each signed a big deal and has degenerated into a part-time starter). 

Character-wise, it's not a win for Portland. I can't believe how short of memory some people have. NVE was a headcase before he was drafted (one of the reasons he went in the second round), he had issues in LA (bumping a ref, feuding with Dell Harris, ticking off Jerry West, and asking to be traded away from the Laker team that was clearly on the path to a championship (or 3), and he was back to headcase status at Denver (organizing the team to boycott a practice, demanding to be traded after receiving a massive contract from the team, sitting out with fake injuries until he was traded).

Financially, this would be a HUGE step back. Damon's contract is bad, and he is the worst financial value in the deal, but his contract is expiring in two seasons. NVE's contract is a year longer than Damon's and is entirely out of proportion with his abilities. Raef's is even worse... he's going to make like $63m over the next 6 years. Bonzi's easily the best value, making the least of any of the players and he's only got like 2 more years left on his deal.

I think that this would be a short-sighted move for a team that would win the same number of games next year irrespective of whether it makes the move or not... but would be screwing itself long-term both by trading its second-best player and taking on longer, worse contracts than it would be giving up.

Ed O.


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## Bwatcher (Dec 31, 2002)

QUOTE

"I think that this would be a short-sighted move for a team that would win the same number of games next year irrespective of whether it makes the move or not... but would be screwing itself long-term both by trading its second-best player and taking on longer, worse contracts than it would be giving up.

Ed O."


A great paragraph Ed O. I think most here are still grasping on to the misleading idea of improving the team for NEXT year. That is no longer the point. I strongly believe the focus should be the quality of the team 3-5 years down the road. While it would be a new position for Portland, it might well make sense to drop down below the cap level to allow us to compete for young players with talent whose best years are in the future. Trading for young players with reasonalbe contracts also makes sense. Forget about getting better marginally the next two years.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

This is not a good deal at all for Portland... for the reasons Ed states. $$ and longer term contracts is not in the best interest for us

we are better off with staying with the players we have and not doing this package deal...

and NVE charecter does scare me...

look for another move...


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

I remember the NVE headscase issues. It seems to me though that they have cooled down quite a bit. Mostly He hasn't had legal problems. Bonzi and NVE are similar characterwise to me.

The one thing about NVE is he is a playmaker, flat out. That to me is something the Blazers have been lacking.Lafrenz does have a bit of an ugly copntract but there is Value in him as a backup. Again to me this deal is Bonzi for NVE and Lafrenz, both of whom can help this team in the short run.

Funny how desperate we are to ditch Damon, yet no deal is adequite.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Schilly</b>!
> I remember the NVE headscase issues. It seems to me though that they have cooled down quite a bit. Mostly He hasn't had legal problems. Bonzi and NVE are similar characterwise to me.


I'm sorry if I made it sound like I thought YOU had a short memory... I honestly meant a general "some people" in this case, and not a backhanded reference to you.

I meant that some people would think of NVE as an improved character because he had a good playoffs for the Mavs... so while the character of the team (fwiw) might not improve, the perception of the team's character probably would. Which is kinda sad.

Ed O.


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## The Enigma (May 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Fork</b>!
> Where's the advantage? slightly better scoring from NVE, but check it out...he averages 14 shots per game to damon's 13.1 which means they're basically even. Slight advantage to NVE in assists. Slight rebounding advantage to Damon. Even Steven. *These guys are the same*.
> 
> *He has one good playoffs run* and suddenly we're supposed to think he's going to lead us to the promised land? I don't think so. Teams with shoot first PG's don't win championships. And we've already got one who's stats compare quite evenly.


Where in my entire post did I mention Nick being more productive than Damon?

I will however state that he is a way better player than Damon. He is an adequate defender with big time heart (which is quite simply the opposite of Damon).

He flat out wins games, Damon facilitates the opposite.
_Maybe you can begin working on a stat to formulate heart and big game mentality._

(keep me posted on your progress) 

---------------

The Blazers, as they are, aren’t that far off from the top teams in the West. 
Last season the Blazers (typically) competed with these teams then faltered down the stretch (_Nick Van Exel would be a difference maker for the Blazers as he has the ability to close games_).

He in place of Damon on last years Blazers roster would have resulted in 4-6 more wins, in my opinion (and that is a huge difference).

With that said I am still note in favor of the proposed deal.
_It makes no sense (from neither an overall talent or financial standpoint)._


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bwatcher</b>!
> 
> A great paragraph Ed O. I think most here are still grasping on to the misleading idea of improving the team for NEXT year. That is no longer the point. I strongly believe the focus should be the quality of the team 3-5 years down the road. While it would be a new position for Portland, it might well make sense to drop down below the cap level to allow us to compete for young players with talent whose best years are in the future. Trading for young players with reasonalbe contracts also makes sense. Forget about getting better marginally the next two years.


Thanks, BW.

I wanted to clarify a bit, though. I'm not opposed to improving in the near-term... I was in favor of adding Gary Payton this summer, because I think with GP this team would have been in a position to do some damage in the playoffs. Even with Andre Miller the team would be better than it was last year. We didn't get either.

Acquiring NVE and Raef would, at best, improve the team marginally over the next couple of years... which isn't good enough, as you state. There's also the chance that the deal would go bad (Bonzi finally achieves all-star status, NVE demands a trade from the third team in his NBA career, and/or Raef continues to show he's an overpaid softie), which could subvert any post-Kemp/Damon hopes we have of reloading through free agency.

Ed O.


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## Bwatcher (Dec 31, 2002)

I'm not against improving in the near term --- I just don't want to trade off near term help for quality down the road a bit. 

I basically think that Portland has no chance of improving near term enough to be a contender. Better to focus totally on improving down the road, hopefully making that improvement more likely.


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## blazerbraindamage (May 5, 2003)

Van Exel/?
Anderson/??
Woods/Outlaw
Zach/Davis/LaFrentz
Davis/LaFrentz/Boumtje

I LIKE THIS DEAL...

Now what can we get for Sheed,Ruben Patterson and McInnis???

See what I'm sayin' ???


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## blazerfan4life (Dec 31, 2002)

i would do it for 1 reason and 1 reason only

WE GET RID OF DAMON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:grinning:


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## blazerbraindamage (May 5, 2003)

> i would do it for 1 reason and 1 reason only
> 
> WE GET RID OF DAMON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



^That's new my favorite sentence !!!!!!!!!!!!!

No wait,I've been saying that since we got the little bug.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

Am I the only one on this board who still likes Damon and wouldn't mind him abck on the team again?


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## baler (Jul 16, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MAS RipCity</b>!
> Am I the only one on this board who still likes Damon and wouldn't mind him abck on the team again?




LOOKS LIKE IT!


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MAS RipCity</b>!
> Am I the only one on this board who still likes Damon and wouldn't mind him abck on the team again?


Maybe... I don't like him, but I wouldn't mind seeing him back on the team again (because I don't want to take a bad contract back and our lack of depth at the position he plays). I'm sure there are people who like him but don't want to see him back. And I *know* there are people who don't like him AND would mind seeing him back.

Ed O.


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

*I am VERY disappointed he was not traded*

If you think back to last year,he would be a very valuable
point off the bench..
To me he won back a spot on the bench.
Note I said ON THE BENCH..

I really think Portland will suffer without a quality point guard.

But if next year is his last,maybe that is the best thing to do.
Keep him for one more year.
I am relieved tho that Portland didn't get Gary.

I would rather tough it out one more year with Damon.

This is not a "championship run" year anyway..


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

Essentialy it is Wells for NVE/Raef. That is a trade i would do

Shooting Guards/Small Forward's like Wells come a dime a dozen, but it is very difficult to find yourself a decent Point Guard or Center

I would do this deal if they included Patterson for Avery Johnson, and threw in JHoward or a 2004 1st round pick. Avery is a absolute standout characer, and will make a great assistant coach when he retires.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ThatBlazerGuy</b>!
> it is very difficult to find yourself a decent Point Guard or Center


:yes:


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## heatfan82 (Feb 20, 2003)

*NVE*

Van Exel is actually very underrated as a PG/passer, because of his shooting ablities his passing gets overlooked.

99-00 He finished 2nd in the league in assist with 9.0
00-01 He finished 3rd in the league in assist with 8.5
Before being traded to Dallas in 01-02 he was 3rd in assist with 8.1, and 18th in points with 21.1

So that's three straight years being in the top 3, and the only other playes to average over 9 assist a game for a season the last 5-6 years are Kidd, Payton, Miller, Stockton, and Van Exel.(And he did it with the Nuggets).

His assist-turnover ratio in 99-00 which most people consider the most important stat to point guards, is the best since the NBA has keep that stat 4.05 assists to turnover while averaging 9.1 assist.

Shots per game wise NVE's career average is 13.9. Bibby who people consider a pass-first guard average is 12.8. Kidd's is 13.1, Marbury is 17.1, Tony Parker 11, Payton 15.6. So he is in the middle of the pack in shots per game, in and the top 3-5 in assist. The numbers just don't support the shot-first thing.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

*Re: NVE*



> Originally posted by <b>heatfan82</b>!
> 
> Shots per game wise NVE's career average is 13.9. Bibby who people consider a pass-first guard average is 12.8. Kidd's is 13.1, Marbury is 17.1, Tony Parker 11, Payton 15.6. So he is in the middle of the pack in shots per game, in and the top 3-5 in assist. The numbers just don't support the shot-first thing.


Sure they do. You aren't normalizing for the number of minutes played. 

They even more STRONGLY support the miss-first thing.

Career FG % / FGA per 48 /misses per 48 (of players you list + Damon for kicks (career stats)):

_______ FG%__	FGA/48	FGmiss/48
Payton_ 0.468	20.28	10.78
Bibby__ 0.450	17.06	9.37
Parker_ 0.447	16.02	8.86
Stephon 0.430	21.32	12.14
Damon__ 0.412	17.96	10.55
NVE____ 0.406	19.26	11.42
Kidd___ 0.404	16.74	9.975
 

NVE misses more than any of these players other than Marbury, and considering Marbury's superior FG%, at least Steph hits his shots at a decent clip. NVE's FG% is terrible and combined with his trigger-happy ways it's no surprise to me that he's never been the starting PG on a team that's done anything good in the NBA.

Ed O.


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## BlayZa (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MAS RipCity</b>!
> Am I the only one on this board who still likes Damon and wouldn't mind him abck on the team again?


nope im still holdin the torch , the repeat weed bust is testing me though.


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## heatfan82 (Feb 20, 2003)

*Re: Re: NVE*



> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> Sure they do. You aren't normalizing for the number of minutes played.
> ...


I never said he is a good shooter, who doesn't know that he is a 40% shooter. My point was that he isn't as shot happy as people think, and when you throw in his better the average assist numbers I don't think you can say he is more shoot-first pass-second then any PG in the league. Not to mention he played in Denver where besides being the PG, he was their best player and first option. In LA he took 12 shots a game, Dallas 11, Denver 15. And the fact that he is "trigger happy" but still can put up great assist numbers tells you what?

And as for not doing anything, if i remember correctly he lead the Lakers to 50 wins and the 2nd round back when the Lakers didn't have Shaq nor Kobe, just Eddie Jones and Divac. And he has lead a team to the Western Conference finals, only a handfull of active PGs can say that, Kidd, Payton, Damon, Cassell, Parker, Fisher, Nash, among a few others.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

I am starting to rethink this deal between DAL & POR. What if the stakes (players) are a little higher? What about a deal like this?

POR trades Rasheed Wallace and Dale Davis

to\for

DAL trades S.Nash, R.LaFrentz, A.Johnson, Wahad, and 2004 #1

OR

Sheed & McInnis
for
Nash, LaFrentz, AJ, (possible #1)

OR

Sheed & Pattersen
for
Nash, Lafrentz, AJ & Rigadeau (possibly #1)

OR

Sheed, Sabas & McInnis
for
Nash, LaFrentz, AJ & Wahad (possibly #1)

The Key principles here being Sheed for Nash\LaFrentz. Is that a bad deal to get back for Sheed? DAL would have a starting 5 of Van Exel, Finley, Dirk, Sheed & Bradley\Eschmeyer\Dale Davis?. Actually the Davis\Sheed makes the most sense to me. POR gets a young PG & C in return in Nash & LaFrentz. Nash's contract is up in 2yrs (and he will want & deserve big $$$), LaFrentz's contract is not pretty and yeah he is a bit soft, but he is a good big man nonetheless, and with a SOLID rebounding team around him (Zebo, Bonzi, Qyntel) would be just fine. Maybe you follow this deal up with the long rumoured Sabas for Camby deal, to add a little depth at the C position (or who knows what other deals?) We get younger, begin the so-called "attitude" adjustment and remain competitive. DAL keeps up with the big boys, Nash's loss can be absorbed by having NVE man the point, Davis provides the toughness inside and what can you say about a Dirk and Sheed frontline? Yikes! That would be interesting to watch now wouldn't it? Taking back Wahad in the deal sucks, but maybe that is offset with a 2004 #1? It would be a late round pick anyway, but gives POR 2 1st round picks to manuever with for next years draft. SO POR would look like this:

PG Nash, McInnis, AJ, Damon
SG Wells, DA, Wahad
SF Qyntel (or Wells and start DA at SG...this seems more likely to me), Ruben
PF Zach, Outlaw
C Lafrentz, Camby?, RBB

Now you could still see Ruben\McInnis go out in a deal\seperate deals as well and possibly DA or Wells, but I suspect POR would keep Wells.

The only caveat I could see is the relationship b\t Nash & Dirk? Are they super tight? Tight enough to squash a deal like this? I would think not, this is the NBA, it is a business, players know that. I really think DAL could cause some serious problems for LAL\SA\SAC & MIN with Sheed & Davis on their team. Sheed is an underated defender, he plays Webber\KG\Duncan better than most people in the league. Davis provides the interior toughness and rebounding DAL is sorely lacking.

Thoughts?

BTW here is what LaFrentz is owed on his deal:

3.Raef LaFrentz - 8,442,500 9,210,000 9,977,500 10,745,000 

Very similiar (less?) than what Brad Miller signed for, huh? Both are 27yrs old, and have been in the league for 5yrs.

Here are stats b\t the two:

Raef career 12.2pppg 7.1rpg 2.2bpg 46.9 fg% 37.2 3pFG%

Miller career 10.5ppg 6.5rpg 0.6bpg 48.5 fg% 31.3fg%


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## antibody (Apr 4, 2003)

I would stop being a Blazer fan if Portland dealt Sheed to Dallas in some kind of package like the one's mentioned above. Yes, give Dallas a frontcourt of Sheed and Dirk. And get back what? I wouldn't deal Sheed unless Dirk would be involved and that is not going to happen. I just don't understand some of these trades and rumors. Most of them have Sheed going for decent players but nothing really special. I would much rather get one very talented player in return rather than stockpiling decent players left and right for Sheed. If nobody offers anything good than keep Sheed.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

LeFrentz interests me.... NVE sours it... I can take on LeFrentz contract due to his pluses.. he is needed as a backup, not a replacement...


How about Bonzi $6.875 mill, Boomtje $0.6 mill and the rights to Sinocivic

for LeFrentz $8.18 mill?


Leave NVE totally out of it...


we get a big man, they get scoring


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Trader Bob</b>!
> LeFrentz interests me.... NVE sours it... I can take on LeFrentz contract due to his pluses.. he is needed as a backup, not a replacement...
> 
> How about Bonzi $6.875 mill, Boomtje $0.6 mill and the rights to Sinocivic
> ...


Dude this is one of the worst trades I've ever seen on this board. 

LaFrentz is SO overpaid, it's ridiculous. While he's got some offensive/shooting ability and he's a decent shotblocker, he's also soft, foul-prone and a bit small for a center. He's also shown NO improvement statistically since he's been in the NBA.

Giving up our second-best player and the rights to our two best big man prospects for an overpaid to-be-backup would be a terrible deal.

Ed O.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

Agreed, just throwing out ideas to get a big man Ed... traditionally trading a big man for a smaller man is not done...

Raef is also similar to Sheed in that he is a bit of an outside shooter.. not really a banging center.. so maybe getting him at center at all is a bad idea.... period!

but they need incentive to let loose a big man of some talent. They are in very short supply right now. Say what you want about him.. he at least is a big body with some talent. He is better than having Boomtje as our backup to Davis...

I did not figure they would be interested in Patterson for just Raef.. Patterson and McInnis.. I doubt it.. they already have Nash/NVE....

Getting Raef alone in a deal is a possibility... but for what?


:whoknows: on Boomtje and Sinocivic.. if they are our best big man prospects.. then we are in trouble... Boomtje is entering his third year and has no offensive game.. only a glimmer of rebounding and shot blocking hope we want..

Sinocivic is said to be a very very long term prospect....

so they both are not worth too much.... only as filler


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

*Raef flat out stinks*

Raef Lafrentz flat out stinks. Ever wonder why he went into Nellie's doghouse last year? Its because he tries to play like a SF while at the PF position. That trade is flat out horrible.


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Trader Bob</b>!
> 
> :whoknows: on Boomtje and Sinocivic.. if they are our best big man prospects.. then we are in trouble...


wait, we're already giving up on Ned, after a summer league?

Thats just silly. 



> Boomtje is entering his third year and has no offensive game.. only a glimmer of rebounding and shot blocking hope we want..


We need role players, and he can play a role. LaFrentz really wouldn't. There's no point in having role players who are still in their prime, who were once main cogs on a team. 


> Sinocivic is said to be a very very long term prospect....
> 
> so they both are not worth too much.... only as filler


Jermaine was a long term prospect as a Blazer, and not worth too much...good thing we traded him.


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## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

OregonLive Blog reports a possible Nick Van Exel and Raef LaFrentz to Portland in exchange for Arvydas Sabonis, Damon Stoudamire and Ruben Patterson.

I don't know if Dallas does this, but I'd be all over it. Get rid of two of our biggest problems and pull in a point and center. It doesn't look like the salaries would work to me without filler. 

Can anyone do the math and explain to me why Dallas would do this?


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## Dan (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Reep</b>!
> Can anyone do the math and explain to me why Dallas would do this?


Maybe in the sense that the Mavs need defense (Patterson)..but other than that, no. I don't think anyone can explain why the mavs would do this trade.

btw, Hi Mark Cuban! Feel free to PM me


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## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

Okay, someone on OLive forum did the math:

Dallas trades: PG Avery Johnson (3.3 ppg, 0.7 rpg, 1.3 apg in 9.0 minutes) C Raef LaFrentz (9.3 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 23.4 minutes) PG Nick Van Exel (12.5 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 27.8 minutes) Dallas receives: SF Ruben Patterson (8.3 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 1.3 apg in 21.2 minutes) C Arvydas Sabonis (6.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 1.8 apg in 15.5 minutes) PG Damon Stoudamire (6.9 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 3.5 apg in 22.3 minutes) Change in team outlook: -3.8 ppg, +1.9 rpg, and +0.2 apg. 

Portland trades: SF Ruben Patterson (8.3 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 1.3 apg in 21.2 minutes) C Arvydas Sabonis (6.1 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 1.8 apg in 15.5 minutes) PG Damon Stoudamire (6.9 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 3.5 apg in 22.3 minutes) Portland receives: PG Avery Johnson (3.3 ppg, 0.7 rpg, 1.3 apg in 48 games) C Raef LaFrentz (9.3 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 0.8 apg in 69 games) PG Nick Van Exel (12.5 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 4.3 apg in 73 games) Change in team outlook: +3.8 ppg, -1.9 rpg, and -0.2 apg. 

TRADE ACCEPTED

As Hap suggested, I guess the main motivation for Dallas is a versatile defender and swap of backup points. Dallas doesn't seem to like Raef. I bet if we threw in Lurch (Jennings) Don Nelson couldn't resist. (Don loves tall white projects).


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Reep</b>!
> OregonLive Blog reports a possible Nick Van Exel and Raef LaFrentz to Portland in exchange for Arvydas Sabonis, Damon Stoudamire and Ruben Patterson.


The source for that as stated on OregonLive is their own forum and users talking about ideas.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Though posters may not feel Raef has much value, he is one of Dallas's best big options. Replacing him with Rube isn't exactly going to fill their inside void. It fills one hole and creates another. Besides that, I feel that their pick this year (Josh Howard) is the same sort of player that Patterson is, and will be commanding 20+ minutes by season's end. Since their salary situation is in the same league as Portland, and they are presumably thinking that they are in the championship discussion, I don't think they'd value Sabas's cap relief much... and Damon?

So basicly this proposal seems like a Blazer fan pipe dream to me.

STOMP


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## Bwatcher (Dec 31, 2002)

I don't think it is Sabonis 's cap relief that would be at stake here. The way this trade begins to make sense, is if you think about Sabonis himself playing for a couple of years in Dallas. 

Defensively, for about 20 minutes a game, Sabonis would be good help for them. Offensively, according to Snapper, Sabas fits better with the Dallas style of play than he does with Portland's. He becomes a play making center, passing off to cutters. This would complement the general outside perimeter game Dallas now has.

Cuban is in the position Whitsitt and the Blazers were in a few years ago. The Mavs are a contender, but right now they don't have enough talent to go all the way. They need interior toughness and scoring. I'm not saying Sabonis provides enough, but where else are they going to find these qualities for next season?


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

910 the fan is now reporting John Nash has turned down a 

Damon + Sabas for

NVE and LeFrentz

thoughts?


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

Nash is insane to turn this trade down

i mean, i am astonished........

NVE is much better than Damon.

The simple FACT that Damon would have been traded would boost PR out of the roof. 


Also, Sabasis not as good as Raef. At this point in his career Sabas is winding down...........









it is even more obvious that we are rebuilding and cutting costs after this trade


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## Swoosh (May 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Trader Bob</b>!
> 910 the fan is now reporting John Nash has turned down a
> 
> Damon + Sabas for
> ...


If this is true, it makes me wonder if he has some other deals lined up including Damon and/or Sabas. Why else would you turn down this offer.

NVE > Damon
LaFrentz > Sabas
(Let's face it, Sabas is on his last legs even if he does come back. While Raef has a high $ long term deal, he would be a decent compliment to Davis at center).

I think most of us have resigned ourselves to the idea that Sabas won't be in a Blazer uniform next year anyway, so why not trade him while he has some value (whether he decides to play or not). I like Sabas, but feel at this stage with this team, we may be better off trading the rights to him even if he were to decide to play in the NBA this year. The Blazers aren't going anywhere this year anyway...If we can get Damon out of PDX, do it!


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## gambitnut (Jan 4, 2003)

In my opinion, this could mean one of two things. Either we think Sabonis isn't coming back and would rather use his cap space ourselves to rebuild instead of trading him for another player or we think he is coming back and believe that he will do more to help us win a championship this year. The problem is I have no idea which it is. Of course, this all depends on this rumor being true.


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## antibody (Apr 4, 2003)

Anything that gets Damon out of town would work for me. Getting NVE and LaFrentz wouldn't be that bad.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

> or we think he is coming back and believe that he will do more to help us win a championship this year



LOL. Yes, sabas tips the scale of the western superpowers in our favor. LOL. 

He is a great player, but is on his last legs, and would more valuable as a incentive in a larger trade, cuz everyone wants 7M in cap room.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

A championship this year? a championship? Did I read that correctly? man, oh man, what are YOU smoking? LOL.... There are some TRULY delusional fans here.


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

Dam straight......

We have about as good a chance to win a championship as the Lions have a chance to win the superbowl. 

LOL


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> A championship this year? a championship? Did I read that correctly? man, oh man, what are YOU smoking? LOL.... There are some TRULY delusional fans here.


I don't think you DID read it right. He was dealing with a hypothetical of what the BLAZERS might be thinking. Not what he was thinking himself... he used "we", but it seems pretty clear to me that he wasn't saying he thought that Sabonis was the key to a title next year.



> Originally posted by <b>gambitnut</b>!
> Either we think Sabonis isn't coming back and would rather use his cap space ourselves to rebuild instead of trading him for another player or we think he is coming back and believe that he will do more to help us win a championship this year.


Ed O.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

Fair enough... No slander intended... I just think there is some OVER optimism regarding POR chances next year. Not trying to sound like a pessimist, b\c I like Qyntel & Zebo VERY MUCH, however I think there are legitimate concerns surrounding both of them (moreso for Woods, but I have reservations about Zebo's apparent "Stardom" as well). 

Boy that turn down (if it is indeed true) NVE\Raef for Sabas\Damon really stuns me. I hope it is not like you have been speculating Ed. That could get REALLY frustrating. Funny thing is, it is VERY unlike Nash. Makes you wonder who has ultimate authority here in Blazerland. Is Allen meddling in player personnel decisions more than he has in the past (for $$$$ concerns). Let's hope not.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> Fair enough... No slander intended... I just think there is some OVER optimism regarding POR chances next year. Not trying to sound like a pessimist, b\c I like Qyntel & Zebo VERY MUCH, however I think there are legitimate concerns surrounding both of them (moreso for Woods, but I have reservations about Zebo's apparent "Stardom" as well).


I think that while some people are over-optimistic, I also think that some people are over-pessimistic.

Naturally, I think that I am spot on 

IF Portland had signed Payton, even if they had lost AD and Pippen, I would be extremely optimistic about the team, and I think that HCA and a title run were possible.

As the team is now, whether Sabonis returns or not, I don't see how they can be better than they were last year in the regular season OR in the playoffs. They might get luckier in the playoffs and squeak into the second round, but I don't see it being as likely as it has been the last 3 years.



> Boy that turn down (if it is indeed true) NVE\Raef for Sabas\Damon really stuns me. I hope it is not like you have been speculating Ed. That could get REALLY frustrating. Funny thing is, it is VERY unlike Nash. Makes you wonder who has ultimate authority here in Blazerland. Is Allen meddling in player personnel decisions more than he has in the past (for $$$$ concerns). Let's hope not.


Amen. Nash in his past has seemed willing to pull the trigger, and Whitsitt was always empowered to make the big move. With such obvious holes to fill (starting PG, backup 5) I just think the NVE + Raef deal would be a natural fit... and maybe get us back into HCA contention. 

I'm holding out hope Nash and the Blazers have something else on the line...

Ed O.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> Fair enough... No slander intended... I just think there is some OVER optimism regarding POR chances next year. Not trying to sound like a pessimist, b\c I like Qyntel & Zebo VERY MUCH, however I think there are legitimate concerns surrounding both of them (moreso for Woods, but I have reservations about Zebo's apparent "Stardom" as well).
> 
> Boy that turn down (if it is indeed true) NVE\Raef for Sabas\Damon really stuns me. I hope it is not like you have been speculating Ed. That could get REALLY frustrating. Funny thing is, it is VERY unlike Nash. Makes you wonder who has ultimate authority here in Blazerland. Is Allen meddling in player personnel decisions more than he has in the past (for $$$$ concerns). Let's hope not.


I think thats exactly it.

Please, don't jump down my throat...........but awhile ago, Roby did state that Portland was looking to dump cap. Of course, the Portland board denied this and brought up examples........but lets re-look at this now.

Not trading Sabas+Damon for NVE and LaFrentz? Why wouldn't you. NVE is the PG you need. He can score. Shoot. And he is the clutch player down the stretch, something Portland lacks when Rasheed slips in and out of the game.

LaFrentz is the shotblocker that Portland hasn't had in awhile. Overpaid? Yes. But he is a solid player though.

The only reason something like that wouldn't happen is for money. Sabas contract, if not picked up, saves Allen $14 million. Damon's contract expires in 2 years. NVE's lasts on year longer, his final season costing 12.7 million.

Double that since you are in LT, and thats $25.4 million

LaFrentz has 6 years left on his contract(including this one) totalling around $60 million.

If you are in LT for all 6 years, thats an extra $120 million.

Add that to the 25.4, and its $145.4 million POTENTIALLY more to do that trade.

At the very least, its $85.4(you'll be in LT area for at least 3 more years if you did this trade).

To sum it up? Its an expensive trade.

Now, if you are Allen, would you spend that much on a trade when it most likely wouldn't put you over the top anyway? No way.

Look at it from Allen's stand point. He has gone all out in acquiring talent, and at great costs, for about 4 years. The result? No Championship.

He undoubedtly has lost millions and millions doing this......

I think he has realized this has to end. Look at SA.....they were able to stay below the LT and win a ring. Portland will reconfigure their roster. 

I am not saying Allen wont pay the LT. I am saying that they days of having an $80+ million team cap are numbered. Look for Allen to keep it at or around the LT area.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> 
> Please, don't jump down my throat...........but awhile ago, Roby did state that Portland was looking to dump cap. Of course, the Portland board denied this and brought up examples........but lets re-look at this now.


He actually accompanied that opinion with a series of ridiculous moves where Portland sacrificed the present for an uncertain future. Portland has made NO dumping trades this summer, and in fact has reportedly (a) made a huge offer for Gary Payton, and (b) turned down Ruben Patterson + DA for Terrell Brandon.

I think it's possible that Portland didn't make the rumored Dallas move because of financial constraints, but that's another ball of wax from trading our decent players for cap space in 2 years.

Ed O.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

I think you are right and wrong Vintage. POR has Kemp @ $14mil & potentially Sheed for $17mil (or at least part of that) falling off the cap next year. That alone, with Damon's expiring deal a year later, would put us near\under the luxury tax threshold ($57mil???) If they can deal Pattersen and maybe DA for expiring contracts they could save even more. I just cannot see POR totally dumping salaries, Allen wants to keep winning (ie playoffs) too. So Nash has to do a little of both, not an easy task by any means.



> I'm holding out hope Nash and the Blazers have something else on the line...


I hear ya Ed...


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## gambitnut (Jan 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> I think that while some people are over-optimistic, I also think that some people are over-pessimistic.
> ...


I totally agree with everything you said here Ed! I'll just add that I'm starting to get worried that Paul allen insisting that we dump salary but I also think it is possible that Nash just has some better ideas for trades. I'm not sure I was sold on that trade anyway, I really want a better passer at PG and agree with the person who said that NVE is pretty much the same player as Damon. I don't think he would be a big improvement in the PR department either so I think the trade would come down to Sabonis for Raef and I do think that Sabonis is better for this year. We missed out on Payton but I'm still hoping we can get a better PG. Maybe Tinsley? And, yes, I am an optimist.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> I think you are right and wrong Vintage. POR has Kemp @ $14mil & potentially Sheed for $17mil (or at least part of that) falling off the cap next year. That alone, with Damon's expiring deal a year later, would put us near\under the luxury tax threshold ($57mil???) If they can deal Pattersen and maybe DA for expiring contracts they could save even more. I just cannot see POR totally dumping salaries, Allen wants to keep winning (ie playoffs) too. So Nash has to do a little of both, not an easy task by any means.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, that is W/O the trade. I was stating, if you made the trade, you would be in the LT area, and therefore, be paying it(and thru the nose).

My whole post was what would happen IF that trade did happen, and some reasons as to why it didn't.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

If the first deal NAsh turned down sounded wild, how about this one. DAL COUNTEROFFERED by including Finley for Wells in this deal. This according to one of the knuckleheads on the FAN who INSISTED it was on VERY CREDIBLE sources (ie read someone in the Blazer orginization). Also mentioned possible ATL inclusion.

NVE, Raef, Finley for Wells, Sabas, Damon... UNFLIPPINBELIEVABLE if that was offered, and JAW DROPPING IMO if POR refuses.


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## gambitnut (Jan 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> If the first deal NAsh turned down sounded wild, how about this one. DAL COUNTEROFFERED by including Finley for Wells in this deal. This according to one of the knuckleheads on the FAN who INSISTED it was on VERY CREDIBLE sources (ie read someone in the Blazer orginization). Also mentioned possible ATL inclusion.
> 
> NVE, Raef, Finley for Wells, Sabas, Damon... UNFLIPPINBELIEVABLE if that was offered, and JAW DROPPING IMO if POR refuses.


That second one doesn't work at RealGM.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

This is going to sound incredibly homerish, but I'd rather have Bonzi than Finley, considering their ages and their salaries.

Flame away.



Before you flame, though, I find it hard to believe Portland would turn that down, too. 

NVE/McInnis
DA/Qyntel
Finley/RP/Outlaw
Wallace/ZR
Dale/Raef/RBB

That's a pretty good team. Expensive for a long time, but good.

Ed O.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> NVE/McInnis
> DA/Qyntel
> Finley/RP/Outlaw
> ...


:jawdrop: That sounds impressive if you leave your checkboook behind.. 

Ed.. no flaming necessary

Finley is very expensive.. Sheed type expensive.. almost $18.6 mill in 2007/08..... and a long term deal too.

I think we need to deal with Atlanta and leave the Dallas deals behind... 

I think the only one from Dallas.. mayeb we really want is NVE...


They will be discussing the alledged trades on the table later on 910 the fan...

Mark Amazon is the one saying he has credible sources inside Dallas... its not the messenger doing the update news


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## HOWIE (Dec 30, 2002)

I am begining to think that Nash wants to build a team that isn't going to create to much salary cap issues down the road. I can't believe that he would turn down that deal either, but if you look at it from a money stand point I can see why it was axed.

Now if this Portland/Dallas/Atlanta deal that is rumored is also rejected by Nash then there is something wrong in Blazerville.

It blows my mind that they had the perfect chance to unload Stoudamire and they passed on it. Something bigger has to be on the table.


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

Or, Portland is merely content with waiting 2 years for Damon's contract to expire, Sabas expires this offseason if he isn;t brought back, Rasheed's is off the hook after this season(should they not resign him), Kemps off the books, as is Dale Davis' and McInnis'.

So if they all leave(unlikely...), that leaves Portland with around a $38 million (Anderson, Wells, Outlaw, Woods, Randolph, Stoudamire, Patterson) team cap composed of those players. 

What you have there is a PG, SG, SF, SG/SF, PF. What is lacking is a Center.


With what will be a late 1st rounder in the upcoming draft, Chris Garnett, Matt Nelson could be viable options at Center to fill you out.

That would put you at around 39 million. You'd have somwhere around 8 million or so(projecting) under the cap to land a decent center and/or PG.

This is also known as rebuilding.

Its just one option that COULD be happening. It unloads Portland's payroll, and gives them an interesting future with Woods, Randolph, and Outlaw.

My guess though is that Rasheed would be retained. And at around 8 million or so. Dale Davis would be retained at a smaller, salary as well. MLE type money(Hey, PJ Brown is making 10 million this year.......Davis could get MLE type money).

Rasheed/Dale Davis
Randolph/????
Wells/Patterson/Outlaw
Anderson/Woods
Stoudamire/?????

Then you could look at a Sasha Vujacic(gamble), or a Jameer Nelson to run the point guard. Again, this is rebuilding as well, but more on the fly, a la Indiana.

You'd have your 1-4 set with 2004 1st round PG, Woods, Outlaw, and Randolph. Center could be handled by Rasheed.(Shaq will be aging but a force.....other than that, Rasheed could handle it IMO).

This still allows Portland to stay at or below the L.T. area. Portland would still be competing in the playoffs, but they'd also be rebuilding as well.

I seriously think that Portland has left some offers behind bec. Allen is looking at trimming his payroll. Maybe not overhauling it completely, but reducing it............


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## ThatBlazerGuy (May 1, 2003)

Nice logic Vintage, but the manegment is aiming at winning back the fans, and if we go into the season withougt loosing at least one of the following players....Wells, Patterson, Damon, Sheed.....the blazer org. will be facing a HUGE community backlash. 


I already know at least 10 people who are planning on not re-upping their season tickets unless we get rid of some of our bone head players. 



I also agree that we should pursue a trade with Atlanta. It seems me and Trader Bob really like 3 or 4 of Atlantas players...SAR, Ratliff, Terry and Nazr. 

We could probably get SAR or JT if we give up Wells, Sabas, some other stuff


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## jackiejackal (Nov 7, 2002)

*One thing this summer was clear*

Qyntel and Zach have something good going on..
they looked for each other,and seemed to be able to set plays for
one another.

Get some shooters and a point and let these young studs
mature..
they are going to be good..
They are not going to take Portland down deep in the playoffs,
but how bout next year??


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## ebott (Jan 7, 2003)

> MAS RipCity said
> Am I the only one on this board who still likes Damon and wouldn't mind him abck on the team again?


I wouldn't mind having Damon back. I don't think we're in a situation where we NEED to trade him like some. If he can continue to play like he did in the playoffs, which I highly doubt, I'd actually be happy to have him back.



> ThatBlazerGuy
> Shooting Guards/Small Forward's like Wells come a dime a dozen


No, shooting guards like DA are a dime a dozen. Wells is a beast with the potential to be great. But I think this is a make it or break it season for him. The Blazers are reportedly committed to playing him at the 2 all year. If they stick to that and his numbers aren't significantly better than last year I'll admit that he's about as good as he's gonna get.

If that supposedly offered Damon and Sabas for Van Exel and LaFrentz trade got turned down it can only have been for financial reasons. They want Sabas off the books now and they're gonna hold onto Damon for the cap relief he'll give us in 2 years. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing cause maybe they've got a plan to have a heck of a team assembled in 05. 

I think we'd all have lower blood pressure and be happier if we viewed the Blazers player personal decisions as a force of nature for the next two years. We don't know what it's gonna do and neither does it. If it's something good we're happy and if it's something bad, whadayagonnado it's a force of nature.


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## Trader Ed (Jun 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> Or, Portland is merely content with waiting 2 years for Damon's contract to expire, Sabas expires this offseason if he isn;t brought back, Rasheed's is off the hook after this season(should they not resign him), Kemps off the books, as is *Dale Davis' *and McInnis'.


Dale is signed through the 2004/05 season according to NBAZone.net and Patricia Bender's site

Hoopshype says he has an expiring contract... but many around here believe it through the 2004/05 season due to the other sites

His contract has always been up in the air since he has been here... nothing concrete...


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## Anima (Jun 3, 2003)

You know I have been checking the Dallas papers every day as well as a Dallas Basketball site ran by Mike Fisher who covers the Mavs and I still haven't heard anything about this "trade" from there side. You would think that if the Blazers and Mavericks where talking to each other about this big of a trade someone who covers the Mavs would say something.


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