# Has Kiki dropped the ball?



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Looking at the Nuggets situation mid-season, my worst fears about this organization are starting to come true. Don't get me wrong, Kiki has done an incredible job getting the team to where it is at this point. He took a bottom feeder team swamped with salaries to a playoff birth within two years. Pretty hard to do. 

But...

He has simply built this team too fast. The Nuggets were obviously horrible two years ago, but they did have promise. They had two promising rookies in Skita and Nene and plenty of cap space. The whole aura around the organization changed and they had a chance at one of the top three picks in the upcoming draft. They ended up adding Carmelo and things looked even better. They got Miller and Boykins in free agency and ended up being a playoff team. But instead of bringing Carmelo along a little slowly and teaching him some lessons, they let him have his way. That's part of the reason he's a little brat right now. Bzdelik never put his foot down with Carmelo and I bet Kiki had a part in that. Kiki couldn't resist getting into the playoffs as soon as possible and Carmelo is worse off for it. That said, coming into this past offseason things were looking really good. Unfortunately, the Nuggets got turned down by some backcourt free agents, but Kiki decided to blow all his cap space on another frontcourt player, as well as throw away three first round draft picks. As much as I love Kenyon, he's not worth 90 million and three first rounders, especially when you have Camby and Nene upfront already. He should've pocketed the money for this next offseason and held onto the picks. Instead, we pretty much have our hands tied financially (especially considering a contracts for Carmelo and Nene will be up soon) and still don't have a legit two guard. Basically, we have very little flexibility to change personell, baring a major trade. Kiki should've held onto his money and picks and waited. Instead, we're a team with a bad attitude and poor chemistry and makeup, that isn't even in playoffs contention. 

Thanks, Kiki.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

if vo didnt go down you'd be calling Kiki a god. We've had some injuries, coaching changes, lack of outside shooting and backcourt issues. After a good draft or off season that addresses this, everything will be ok.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Going into last summer, Kiki needed to improve several areas to turn the team from fighting for the playoffs into a championship contender 1) a difference maker in the playoffs 2) the shooting guard position 3) the bench. The team that made the playoffs was not constructed to go deep into the playoffs. Kiki did go after Manu first and gave him an offer, but Manu made it clear that he wanted to stay with the Spurs. I highly doubt a front loaded max contract would have changed that.

The error Kiki made was not making good use of the 15 days he bought himself with the 3 draft picks. Kenyon addresses area #1, but for his value to be seen, the Nuggets need to reach the playoffs. If Kiki had gone after Brent Barry, this team would be in much better shape.

As far as worth, Kiki got an extra season of Kenyon for only 6 more million that he was willing to spend to get him for six seasons. The draft picks were chips to make deals and three were used in one deal. A team with championship asperations can't afford to add multiple first round draft picks every year.

There was very little chance that Kiki was going to be able to acomplish everything in one summer. So now Kiki has the summer of 2005 to draft a SG and sign another with the MLE.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> Going into last summer, Kiki needed to improve several areas to turn the team from fighting for the playoffs into a championship contender 1) a difference maker in the playoffs 2) the shooting guard position 3) the bench. The team that made the playoffs was not constructed to go deep into the playoffs. Kiki did go after Manu first and gave him an offer, but Manu made it clear that he wanted to stay with the Spurs. I highly doubt a front loaded max contract would have changed that.
> 
> The error Kiki made was not making good use of the 15 days he bought himself with the 3 draft picks. Kenyon addresses area #1, but for his value to be seen, the Nuggets need to reach the playoffs. If Kiki had gone after Brent Barry, this team would be in much better shape.
> 
> ...


You're definitely being very generous in your assessment. I'm not saying all is lost. But Kiki could have made better decisions. I agree w/ Rodney's post. Carmelo has been allowed to fester. The team didn't really need another front court player. Miller is uninspiring at PG. I watched him in Seattle and he looked like he didn't even want to be on the court. Still had a great game though, but he's no leader and no PG. They don't even appear to have a natural SG on the roster. Come on Cpaw, don't become the NI of this board. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

nbanoitall said:


> if vo didnt go down you'd be calling Kiki a god. We've had some injuries, coaching changes, lack of outside shooting and backcourt issues. After a good draft or off season that addresses this, everything will be ok.


Please. Vo going down didn't really have an effect. We may have three more wins this season had he played. 

Besides, how long is Vo gonna play for? We need a real shooting guard, not a selfish three point shooter who is either hot or cold.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> Going into last summer, Kiki needed to improve several areas to turn the team from fighting for the playoffs into a championship contender 1) a difference maker in the playoffs 2) the shooting guard position 3) the bench. The team that made the playoffs was not constructed to go deep into the playoffs. Kiki did go after Manu first and gave him an offer, but Manu made it clear that he wanted to stay with the Spurs. I highly doubt a front loaded max contract would have changed that.
> 
> The error Kiki made was not making good use of the 15 days he bought himself with the 3 draft picks. Kenyon addresses area #1, but for his value to be seen, the Nuggets need to reach the playoffs. If Kiki had gone after Brent Barry, this team would be in much better shape.
> 
> ...



When did I say anything about using those draft picks on players? Do you know how much three first round draft picks can buy you in the NBA these days? Kiki let go of a huge bargaining chip for someone who really hasn't made that much of a difference this year. 

And who exactly will the Nuggets draft at the shooting guard position with a later round pick that will step in and made a big difference? Same with the MLE. 

We gave up way too much for Kenyon all because Kiki can't slow his *** down. You can't build a championship team overnight. It takes time.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> You're definitely being very generous in your assessment. I'm not saying all is lost. But Kiki could have made better decisions. I agree w/ Rodney's post. Carmelo has been allowed to fester. The team didn't really need another front court player. Miller is uninspiring at PG. I watched him in Seattle and he looked like he didn't even want to be on the court. Still had a great game though, but he's no leader and no PG. They don't even appear to have a natural SG on the roster. Come on Cpaw, don't become the NI of this board. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:


I only have optimism because of Coach Karl. I'm no longer worried about Melo under his guidance. Buckner and DJ are both decent bench 2's, the problem is that they are being asked to start.

As far as Miller, I also believe Karl will be good for him. The games he had to play at the 2 because he wasn't pushing the ball enough probably sent the appropriate message. Obviously the team still has a long way to go, but the biggest mistake was bringing Bz back for this season.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> I only have optimism because of Coach Karl. I'm no longer worried about Melo under his guidance. Buckner and DJ are both decent bench 2's, the problem is that they are being asked to start.
> 
> As far as Miller, I also believe Karl will be good for him. The games he had to play at the 2 because he wasn't pushing the ball enough probably sent the appropriate message. Obviously the team still has a long way to go, but the biggest mistake was bringing Bz back for this season.


Yeah, I agree with that. Bzdelik never should've been brought back, for a myriad of reasons. I like Karl as far as bringing discipline and a system to the team. I've already noticed a huge difference. 

For this team, it'll always boil down to whether they wanna run or not. When they run, they've always got a chance to win. When they don't, they're horrible. On top of that, they've gotta play better defense. 

I don't mean to be so pessimistic about the team, but I'm frustrated with this season and frustrated with our lack of flexibility. Hopefully it gets turned around.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> When did I say anything about using those draft picks on players? Do you know how much three first round draft picks can buy you in the NBA these days? Kiki let go of a huge bargaining chip for someone who really hasn't made that much of a difference this year.
> 
> And who exactly will the Nuggets draft at the shooting guard position with a later round pick that will step in and made a big difference? Same with the MLE.
> 
> We gave up way too much for Kenyon all because Kiki can't slow his *** down. You can't build a championship team overnight. It takes time.


I am very aware what draft picks can get you in the proper situation. The Nets used 2 of the draft picks they received for Kenyon as the grease to acquire Vince. On the other hand, the Spurs had to spend 2 first rounders just to get rid of Rose.

Considering the inept coaching prior to the last 11 games, I don't believe it is fair to judge Kenyon's impact yet. Yet still


> Kenyon Martin is enjoying one of his best stretches of the season, averaging 18.5 ppg over his last 11 games. During that span, he has posted three double-doubles. With just under 34 seconds left in the first quarter against the Cavaliers on 2/11, Martin scored the 5,000th point of his career. He finished with 19 points in the game. KMart scored a season-high 27 points (11-17 FG) against New York on 2/1 and tallied 24 points and nine boards against Golden State on 2/5. He also led the Nuggets with 25 points and five steals at Indiana on 1/29. Martin leads the Nuggets with 19 double-doubles this season.


As far as shooting guards, I don't think you fully grasp what the Nuggets offense will be able to do when they can have proper spacing under Karl. Someone that provides a reasonable threat of long range shooting, which Vo does, would open quite a bit of space. The most Korver can get from the 76ers is the MLE, so Denver could be a destination for him. In the draft Garcia or Carney would good selections.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Yeah, I agree with that. Bzdelik never should've been brought back, for a myriad of reasons. I like Karl as far as bringing discipline and a system to the team. I've already noticed a huge difference.
> 
> For this team, it'll always boil down to whether they wanna run or not. When they run, they've always got a chance to win. When they don't, they're horrible. On top of that, they've gotta play better defense.
> 
> I don't mean to be so pessimistic about the team, but I'm frustrated with this season and frustrated with our lack of flexibility. Hopefully it gets turned around.


I was frustrated prior to Karl's arrival, but I do see a decent present and better future. I'm not worried about flexibility because I'm comfortable with the core of the team.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

rodney you dont get denver's largest problem. Its not that Vo is that great, its that what he did for denver is what denver needed. If Vo was healthy we could be an 8th seed in the west right now. Injuries to other players would keep us from being better than that. He would have really spread the floor and other teams D's for us, we would have had a higher shooting percentage so we'd get back on D better which would lead to fast breaks for Denver.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

nbanoitall said:


> rodney you dont get denver's largest problem. Its not that Vo is that great, its that what he did for denver is what denver needed. If Vo was healthy we could be an 8th seed in the west right now. Injuries to other players would keep us from being better than that. He would have really spread the floor and other teams D's for us, we would have had a higher shooting percentage so we'd get back on D better which would lead to fast breaks for Denver.


Nah, Vo wouldn't have made that much of a difference. Like I said, if Denver wants to win it'll run. Our halfcourt set is despicable. Vo would help but not enough to be in playoff contention right now (don't forget he isn't that great on defense, hitting the boards, or passing the ball). Besides, either he is on or off. Teams are more than willing to let Vo shoot when he is ice cold.


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

cpawfan said:


> I am very aware what draft picks can get you in the proper situation. The Nets used 2 of the draft picks they received for Kenyon as the grease to acquire Vince. On the other hand, the Spurs had to spend 2 first rounders just to get rid of Rose.
> 
> Considering the inept coaching prior to the last 11 games, I don't believe it is fair to judge Kenyon's impact yet. Yet still
> 
> As far as shooting guards, I don't think you fully grasp what the Nuggets offense will be able to do when they can have proper spacing under Karl. Someone that provides a reasonable threat of long range shooting, which Vo does, would open quite a bit of space. The most Korver can get from the 76ers is the MLE, so Denver could be a destination for him. In the draft Garcia or Carney would good selections.


Three picks for Kenyon is way too high, especially if you're going to pay him 90 million. Again, I like Kenyon but you can't put such a high stake in one player, let alone a frontcourt player that isn't on the level of the elite in the league. Kenyon is doing great but unless the Nuggets run, he can only do so much. I've also been disappointed with his defense this year. He isn't bringing the same intensity he did in New Jersey. 

And again, spaced or not, unless the Nuggets are running they're useless. And there's no way Philly let's Korver go. After all, Jim O'brien is the coach there.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> And again, spaced or not, unless the Nuggets are running they're useless. And there's no way Philly let's Korver go. After all, Jim O'brien is the coach there.


I disagree about the spacing. With an experienced coach like Karl, the times the Nuggets are forced into the half court are already looking better. More spacing allows more cutting which works to the advantage of the passing skills of the front court.

Philly is limited in what they can give Korver, even though he is restricted. They will only have early Bird rights and they will be over the cap. If the CBA stays the same, they will only be able to match deals up to the MLE. There is a real chance that Philly could loose him, but it won't be to Denver since the MLE is all Kiki will have to offer him.


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## NetsRoll (Mar 24, 2004)

Yes. Gave up way too much for the overrated Martin.

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3115388


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Rosen is one of Phil's mouthpieces and has no credibility.


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