# Game Discussion - Week of Jan 25



## JuniorNoboa

The first huge game of the week. 

Georgetown at Syracuse

Hoyas start with a 14-0 run on four threes in a row. 2-3 zone by SU is a little slow.

SU has scored the next 8, its now 14-8. Should be a good game.


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## JuniorNoboa

Man Freeman can shoot. 13 points in the first 8 minutes.


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## JuniorNoboa

Syracuse takes the lead 30-29. Great comeback, but what else would you expect from the best team in the country.


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## JuniorNoboa

Syracuse ends the half on a 11-0 run, up five, after starting the game down 14-0.


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## JuniorNoboa

Monroe started the game great, they gave it him a few more times leading to a few turnovers, and instead of going back to him, just seemingly just stopped going to it.

I beleive 18 of the 34 SU points come from the two players off the bench. 1-7 SU may be the deepest offensive team in the country in terms of ability to score.


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## SheriffKilla

JuniorNoboa said:


> 1-7 SU may be the deepest offensive team in the country in terms of ability to score.


Yep, Ive been saying that since the florida game


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## SheriffKilla

The Syracuse guards completely taking the Georgetown D apart, GTown is a good team but Syracuse looks really good right now, the power of home court


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## JuniorNoboa

Syracuse wins by 17, a 31 point swing in the last 36 minutes of the game against the 11th best ranked team in the country. Albeit the only truly impressive victories are road victories. 

It will be interesting to see what adjustments Georgetown makes when Syracuse visits them.


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## JuniorNoboa

Every basket Missouri gets seems to be hotly contested, while Kansas is scoring so easily. It could be worse then a 10 point deficit right now.


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## bball2223

Syracuse has a really good chance to make the final 4 and possibly even win a national title. It's scary the athletic ability and length in their zone and offensively they are talented as anybody. I might even go as far as saying they are the best team in the country, but I don't want to quite say that yet. This was a great win at home however and they definitely impressed.


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## SheriffKilla

My final 4 Syracuse, Kansas, Kentucky and gonna throw in Tennessee as a surprise..even though the Vols is a team that I wanna see make it more so than anything


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## HKF

Syracuse only plays 7 guys.


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## JuniorNoboa

HKF said:


> Syracuse only plays 7 guys.


Why would they need to play more (other then injurties). There is plenty of roster flexibility to allow all players adequate rest. They are all legit 20 MPG guys on any team in America (other then maybe Jardine).

Onauku and Jackson can play C
Jackson and Johnson can play PF in the zone
Johnson or Joseph can play SF
Rautins or Triche Can play SG
Triche or Jardine can play PG.

They all have at least one strong particular scoring skill.


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## FSH

HKF said:


> Syracuse only plays 7 guys.


Mookie Jones, James Southerland, DaShonte Riley all avg over 10 mpg but havent played in the last 3 mostly because they are freshman...As Syracuse gets deeper into Big East i think they will get more play time

But right now Syracuse doesnt need them its not like Syracuse cant go deeper into the bench they just havent had to


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## Nimreitz

I really hate that Cuse is so great. One of my best friends, and coincidentally I've had a HUGE rivalry with him since Middle School, went to Syracuse. You guys have no idea how hard it is for me to pick Cuse as the best team in the country, but seriously... Syracuse is the best team in the country. This is not a reverse jinx; their offense looks phenomenal and really hard to stop, and their defense... I mean, I honestly don't know how any team can beat that 2-3 zone this year. In any other year, the Cuse 2-3 is beatable, but I don't think it is this year.

Talked to that guy on Saturday (he was trying to coax me into a Cuse vs. Marquette bet which I declined), and he said that he thinks Wisconsin vs. Syracuse would be a good game. I pretended like I agreed with him, but I honestly think that the Orange would beat UW by about 30. I don't think we can shoot over them, and our inside presence is weak even with Jon Leuer.


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## apelman42

The Cuse won me a lot of money tonight.

As long as they're on opposite sides of the bracket, I've got a Kentucky/Syracuse National Championship.


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## coolpohle

One team I'm starting to keep my eye on is Maryland. Everyone knows about Grevis Vasquez (who has really upped his game this year), but quietly Sean Mosley is having a huge sophomore year and Landon Milbourne has also emerged as a legitimate threat. 

We are going to start to find out a lot more about this team. So far, they're 3-1 in ACC play with the loss being to Wake in OT on the road. They won comfortably over Florida St., and have beaten Boston College on the road by 16 and most recently, NC State by 24.


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## coolpohle

Maryland is just absolutely raping Miami as they're up by 28 with 11 to go. The three headed monster of Vasquez-Milbourne-Mosley currently has 36 points on 54% shooting.


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## JuniorNoboa

So Maryland looks like it can be developing into team 2 in the ACC. I had Clemson pegged for that, now they are losing to BC on the road. If you want a top 5 seed, you have to get those.


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## Geaux Tigers

I'm calling the South Carolina upset tonight over UK. I got a feeling in my tum tum* that Devan Downey is going to go bonkers and put up 40.




*Of course I just ate a pretty roughtastic combo of spicy food plus a carbonated beverage and that feeling could be something VERY different.


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## Geaux Tigers

Oh wow you can't draw up a better end of the game play than what Michigan put out there. Poor dude just didn't finish the bunny for the win! Ouch!


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## bball2223

Michigan State is awfully average when they don't take care of the ball. If they can control turnovers they can play with anyone.


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## coolpohle

Geaux Tigers said:


> I'm calling the South Carolina upset tonight over UK. I got a feeling in my tum tum* that Devan Downey is going to go bonkers and put up 40.


I hope you're right...although I don't see it happening. It's sad that this is one of Kentucky's toughest games the rest of the way.


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## Geaux Tigers

SC has no one that can guard Cousins or Patterson. Muldrow is a pretty good help defender and is behind Varnado in blocks in the SEC, but he is going to have his hands full tonight.


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## coolpohle

bball2223 said:


> Michigan State is awfully average when they don't take care of the ball. If they can control turnovers they can play with anyone.


For a team that's 18-3 and 8-0 in the Big Ten, there have been a lot of times that they haven't looked the part.


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## Geaux Tigers

SC needs to value the basketball and try and take as much time as they can on each possession. Then they have to try and clog the lane and force UK to shoot. Easier said than done but it's really the only way to beat these guys. I'd also try and take it at Cousins and see if they can't get him in foul trouble.


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## HKF

Big Ten is down IMO which is odd considering all the players they had coming back.


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## JuniorNoboa

HKF said:


> Big Ten is down IMO which is odd considering all the players they had coming back.


No doubt, truly odd. I expected the Big Ten to produce alot of good teams and be the best conference in America.... which would lead to alot of ugly basketball games come March. They were so deep last year, with so many teams around the bubble (in and out)... those teams looked like they would all improve due to returning players.


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## JuniorNoboa

Maybe not the same style, but Devan Downey is basically this years version of Jodie Meeks.


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## JuniorNoboa

Marquette crushing Rutgers 41-16 - I don`t understand how they lost to Depaul. Marquette has that bacloaded soft schedule that should allow them to get to .500 from 2-5, but .500 may not be enough. But really have to regreat losing to an awful Depaul team.


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## Geaux Tigers

Devan Downey needs to do a better job of moving without the ball. That whole possession he just sat there camped outside the 3 line. They should watch how Arkansas tries to free up Rotnei Clark and run Downey off screens constantly. Clark never stops moving...ever.


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## Geaux Tigers

Got this Kansas St and Baylor matchup on my ESPN360. My boy Tweety Carter is playing great.


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## HB

Dont wanna jinx the boys in blue, but this might be a much needed road win, at least it will stem the bleeding. Didn't NC state beat Duke?


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## coolpohle

JuniorNoboa said:


> Marquette crushing Rutgers 41-16 - I don`t understand how they lost to Depaul. Marquette has that bacloaded soft schedule that should allow them to get to .500 from 2-5, but .500 may not be enough. But really have to regreat losing to an awful Depaul team.


I watched them get up 20-8 and then I turned it off. Was shocked when I went to look at the final and saw they lost. I was always confused at how much crap people gave Crean as Buzz is a complete disaster for this program. Hopefully they can get it turned around this season but they may just suffer a similar to fate like Georgetown did last season.


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## HB

I dont know how to read Cal. On one hand there's all the allegations of being a sleaze ball, on the other hand is the charming guy who's giving props to his opponents at half time, talking about a great venue and all, the guy raising money for charity etc. He's just an enigma really.


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## Geaux Tigers

HB said:


> I dont know how to read Cal. On one hand there's all the allegations of being a sleaze ball, on the other hand is the charming guy who's giving props to his opponents at half time, talking about a great venue and all, the guy raising money for charity etc. He's just an enigma really.


I have been very critical of Calipari in the past, but in all honestly he's just one cog in the wheel of the greater problem. He does possess all of the qualities you mentioned and his on court credentials are phenomenal. I guess Cal really is just a symptom of the disease.


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## JuniorNoboa

HB said:


> Dont wanna jinx the boys in blue, but this might be a much needed road win, at least it will stem the bleeding. Didn't NC state beat Duke?


Any road win is a quality win in the ACC. The problem is that UNC now has some must win road games, and cannot afford to lose these games.


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## SheriffKilla

Big win for KState, Pullen looked terrific after 2 off games, reminds me a little bit of Steve Logan, who was one of all time favs...
Now time to watch the Kentucky game


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## coolpohle

UNC cannot afford to lose this game.


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## HB

Ah and UNC is back at their suckage once again. I dont know if I should laugh or cry.


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## Geaux Tigers

SC has UK exactly where they want them. It's been a low scoring game for the 'cats and that heavily favors the Gamecocks. 

John Wall is starting to heat up and someone on the SC team has to step on on defense and pressure him. SC has nobody to guard Cousins and they have no inside presence on offense. It's hard when UK knows the play that SC is going to run every possession...Give it to Downey and let him operate or...nothing else


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## TYO23

Downey is in a zone...he's keeping South Carolina in this game by himself.


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## HB

> DaveTelep
> 
> John Henson's Inspector Gadget arms were major reason for UNC's spurt. Folks actually tried jumpin off his bandwagon. Not smart


yizzir

And Downey is a baller


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## Geaux Tigers

The website goes down when the number 1 team looks like they are going to get upset? Puhlease.

Devan Downey is the fricken man...John Wall is looking like a freshman for the first time all season. Even he can't stay in front of Downey.


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## JuniorNoboa

After shooting 5-23 or something like that, I can`t believe the shots that downey is hitting ... amazing stuff


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## Geaux Tigers

WOW! Muldrow wasn't an unknown to me going into this game, but damn son I did not expect seeing him play like this!


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## JuniorNoboa

They let a foul go on Downey then on Wall. Letting th em play


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## gi0rdun

John Wall is a crazy player. That one play where he got blocked was pretty sweet too it's South Carolina caught a break.


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## kansasalumn

I miss the UK game, I wish I would love to see it, but I rather watch the K-state game


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## SheriffKilla

Pretty lame that the website went down, I had to talk in the chat on JustinTV, wow those guys are idiots
Anyway Cousins played great and kept them in the game but this was SCs game of the year they wouldnt lose, props to Downey, Baileyross, Muldrow and Darrin Horn


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## HB

Kentucky fans are some arrogant ****ers for real lol. They have a UK National champions 2010 group up already on facebook.


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## coolpohle

UNC won a must win game tonight. I turned it on with about 17 left in the game with NC State up by five - Tracy Smith went out about the same time with foul trouble and they didn't score for roughly six minutes.


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## bball2223

HB said:


> Kentucky fans are some arrogant ****ers for real lol. They have a UK National champions 2010 group up already on facebook.


They will be disappointed. If they run up against Syracuse they are done. That zone with the length/athletic ability of Syracuse coupled with their offense is an awful matchup for UK. I think Kansas, and Texas are better as well.


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## SheriffKilla

I think Texas could have some problems against UK but Syracuse and Kansas are definetly better


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## Blue

Great game, Downey is just a little beast... And dare I say, Cousins (will be)> Wall?


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## Geaux Tigers

HB said:


> Kentucky fans are some arrogant ****ers for real lol. They have a UK National champions 2010 group up already on facebook.


Sounds to me like regular ole fans...


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## Geaux Tigers

Blue Magic said:


> Great game, Downey is just a little beast... And dare I say, Cousins (will be)> Wall?


I thought the same thing for a split second watching him tonight, but on this site that could damn well be heresy. With the way bigs are valued in the NBA and the fact that some PGs have trouble mentally translating to the NBA game...it could happen.


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## Drewbs

UNC won. 

I was amazed to see us not sucking for once.


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## Geaux Tigers

Geaux Tigers said:


> I'm calling the South Carolina upset tonight over UK. I got a feeling in my tum tum* that Devan Downey is going to go bonkers and put up 40.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *Of course I just ate a pretty roughtastic combo of spicy food plus a carbonated beverage and that feeling could be something VERY different.


I'm just sayin...


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## Nimreitz

UK lost... this morning I woke up to Skip Bayless' racist retarded opinions on First Take, but I remember what one of those dudes said "I'm worried that UK will have a Fab Five moment; they'll be the best team, but their youth will cause them to make stupid mistakes in crucial games." I just think that's what they'll be. Talent wise--UK is the best team in the country, but they're just to young. If all those dudes come back next year they would be unbeatable.


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## SheriffKilla

the chances of them coming back, lol
As far as Cousins being better than Wall, finally this board is starting to grow on my boy!
He has been my favorite player on Kentucky, but I still gotta be honest that Wall will be a better player, Cousins is a hell of a prospect though, probably top 5 in the next draft


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## coolpohle

Downey made some clutch plays, but let's not go crazy over a guy that was 9-29 from the field.

Patterson has to be more involved if Kentucky wants to win it all. 4 shots? Dodson shooting twice as many in 14 less minutes is a terrible sign.


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## bball2223

coolpohle said:


> Downey made some clutch plays, but let's not go crazy over a guy that was 9-29 from the field.
> 
> Patterson has to be more involved if Kentucky wants to win it all. 4 shots? Dodson shooting twice as many in 14 less minutes is a terrible sign.


Why not? Downey put his ****ty supporting cast on his back and beat the #1 team in the country. I mean half the time all his teammates did was watch him dribble through the entire defense and wait for him to shoot. Didn't move, just stood there. 9-29 is nothing special, but his performance last night was. Easily a top 10 player in college basketball. 


I agree on getting Patterson more involved. He needs at least 10 shots a game if UK has a chance to win the title.


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## coolpohle

Just because they're ranked #1 doesn't mean they are the best team in they country. Most guys can put up 30 points if they take 29 shots. Just not many guys take that many shots.

If you can only name nine guys better than him in the country then you need to take more teams in consideration. I can name you six guys better on Kansas and Kentucky alone.


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## Blue

coolpohle said:


> Downey made some clutch plays, but let's not go crazy over a guy that was 9-29 from the field.
> 
> Patterson has to be more involved if Kentucky wants to win it all. 4 shots? Dodson shooting twice as many in 14 less minutes is a terrible sign.


I wish Patterson would've came to UF. He would've definitely been featured, and Nick probably wouldve stayed around too. I know he didn't trust Billy after the whole flip-flop thing, but it just seems like he's overshadowed @ UK now... I dont if that will hurt him, it might help him if they make a deep tourney run, but he was like a ghost last night. PP should've been out there dominating...


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## SheriffKilla

I kind of like how Patterson took the role player thing on, but 4 shots should not be happening


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## Geaux Tigers

Yeah you really can't look at percentages and turnovers when judging a guy like Devan Downey. He has absolutely NO ONE else on that team to carry the load. Downey is put in tough situations every night like a lot of stars, but unlike a lot of the other guy's he really has no one else. It's Steph Curry like and despite some of the uglier percentages SC has no choice but to live with it.

He might not project well on the next level so this board won't talk about him much, but Downey is one of the most exciting players in college basketball.


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## HKF

Patterson is a role player. You know sometimes if you want the ball, go grab an offensive rebound.


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## Nimreitz

JuniorNoboa said:


> Marquette crushing Rutgers 41-16 - I don`t understand how they lost to Depaul. Marquette has that bacloaded soft schedule that should allow them to get to .500 from 2-5, but .500 may not be enough. But really have to regreat losing to an awful Depaul team.


I was at the game and Marquette has to be the unluckiest team in America. With the exception of Depaul they blow out every bad team they play, and they lose in heartbreaking fashion to every good team they play. Except Wisconsin who beat them down.


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## coolpohle

Geaux Tigers said:


> Yeah you really can't look at percentages and turnovers when judging a guy like Devan Downey. He has absolutely NO ONE else on that team to carry the load. Downey is put in tough situations every night like a lot of stars, but unlike a lot of the other guy's he really has no one else. It's Steph Curry like and despite some of the uglier percentages SC has no choice but to live with it.
> 
> He might not project well on the next level so this board won't talk about him much, but Downey is one of the most exciting players in college basketball.


That's a really bad comparison because Curry was a beast last season despite getting a million touches. Downey's having a fine year no doubt, but I don't care who is or isn't around a player. If a guy goes 9-29, I'm sure as hell not going to go out my way to give props to him.


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## coolpohle

HKF said:


> Patterson is a role player. You know sometimes if you want the ball, go grab an offensive rebound.


He hasn't been one the past two seasons when he's been very efficient. Patterson's been a fine offensive rebounder so I'm not sure where you're going with that. Kentucky needs to get him more involved and say Bledsoe less involved. That's something that they can focus on, and so far - have not.


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## Geaux Tigers

coolpohle said:


> That's a really bad comparison because Curry was a beast last season despite getting a million touches. Downey's having a fine year no doubt, but I don't care who is or isn't around a player. If a guy goes 9-29, I'm sure as hell not going to go out my way to give props to him.


Despite upsetting the number 1 team in the nation and being outmanned in the talent department by a mile and half? If Devan Downey puts up those numbers and the team craps out then I can see what you are saying. But this guy is a one man wrecking crew AND they won the game. Had he had some support on defense Chandler Parson's probably wouldn't have downed that 3 to beat them and we would be talking about Downey having one of the best two game performances of the season.

I know what you are saying. It isn't pretty basketball, but I can't blame the guy. The comparison with Curry is pretty spot on if you ask me. Not in terms of talent, but absolutely in terms of having to carry a team. Unnlike Curry though SC won't walzt through a bad league into the Tournament.


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## BlueBaron

Downy is absolutely unreal. I was really dreading playing @ South Carolina. I knew they would bring it and by gosh if they didn't. Congrats to them they deserved to win. PPat needs to make himself more involved... he should be leading the team but he has settled into the role Perry Stevenson played last year. That's got to change. Some UK fans might be arrogant, not all of us. Making a Facebook page for the 2010 champions isn't really arrogant though... just fans being fans, right?


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## Geaux Tigers

BlueBaron said:


> Downy is absolutely unreal. I was really dreading playing @ South Carolina. I knew they would bring it and by gosh if they didn't. Congrats to them they deserved to win. PPat needs to make himself more involved... he should be leading the team but he has settled into the role Perry Stevenson played last year. That's got to change. Some UK fans might be arrogant, not all of us. *Making a Facebook page for the 2010 champions isn't really arrogant though... just fans being fans, right?*


Yeah I don't see where he was going with that. If you see an LSU 2010 Championship page then that is wild as we are dead last in the league. However UK has been a top 5 team for almost the whole year. Doesn't seem like too much of a stretch or an arrogant proposal to me.


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## coolpohle

Geaux Tigers said:


> Despite upsetting the number 1 team in the nation and being outmanned in the talent department by a mile and half? If Devan Downey puts up those numbers and the team craps out then I can see what you are saying. But this guy is a one man wrecking crew AND they won the game. Had he had some support on defense Chandler Parson's probably wouldn't have downed that 3 to beat them and we would be talking about Downey having one of the best two game performances of the season.
> 
> I know what you are saying. It isn't pretty basketball, but I can't blame the guy. The comparison with Curry is pretty spot on if you ask me. Not in terms of talent, but absolutely in terms of having to carry a team. Unnlike Curry though SC won't walzt through a bad league into the Tournament.


They won not because Downey put up 30 points, but because they held Kentucky to a lowly 62 points on 69 possessions - their lowest percentage of the season.


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## Geaux Tigers

Harangody is great to watch. It's like watching a magic show sometimes. You just sit there and wonder how he does it.


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## zagsfan20

We'll get to see how good BYU really is tonight when they get their first real tough test against New Mexico in the Pitt.


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## Nimreitz

zagsfan20 said:


> We'll get to see how good BYU really is tonight when they get their first real tough test against New Mexico in the Pitt.


Only televised on the West Coast? I don't think I get late night basketball tonight.


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## coolpohle

zagsfan20 said:


> We'll get to see how good BYU really is tonight when they get their first real tough test against New Mexico in the Pitt.


They have had three real tough tests already: @ Utah St., @ UTEP, @ San Diego St.

This should be a win for New Mexico.


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## SheriffKilla

I mean BYU is due for a loss but if they win today Im gonna have them in the top 5 next ratings


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## SheriffKilla

Duke Florida State game is pretty discusting but I love it since I put money on the under... haha


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## HB

OSU is a fun team to watch and forgot to mention that wildcat fans well some of them claimed Obama jinxed the team lol


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## SheriffKilla

Hassan Whiteside averaging 15 points, 10 rebounds and 6 blocks in the last 9 games including games against West Virginia, UAB and Memphis
Not really the same build but his length and athletic ability reminds me of D12 a little bit...


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## TM

Yet another team playing at home just shooting out of their minds vs Duke. GTown up by 9


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## HB

Duke can't handle team with good big men AT ALL


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## TM

what does that have to do with anything? theyre getting killed by Wright and Freeman, not Monroe and Vaughn. Monroe has a crap bank shot to beat the shotclock, a couple FT's and 2 baskets inside. that's it. i guess on offense you're right. it helps when you shoot the ball into their hands. great work lance thomas.


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## HB

Spacing, good bigs allow those guards operate better.

Anywhoo Jimmy Butler just hit a heck of a shot to beat Uconn and Louisville and WVU are in a really close one.


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## TM

kyle singler is not good at all. he's progressively getting worse


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## HB

Wow Louisville got shafted, first with the ball hitting Mazullo out of bounds and then WVU ending up with possession after ball went off Ebanks. WVU fans chanting Karen Sypher is also tasteless by the way, but hey when Huggins is your coach, maybe thats allowed.


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## TM

HB said:


> Spacing, good bigs allow those guards operate better.


will duke ever stop bringing their big men out 3 feet as the 3 to guard more athletic big men?


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## JuniorNoboa

Syracuse down 33-21 at lowly Depaul. The lead was 17 at one point. Fugly.


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## HB

The way Duke played today, I almost thought it was UNC out there


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## FSH

What the hell has happened to Arinze Onuaku he just isnt the same player anymore


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## FSH

This is just ugly


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## HB

Only a 7 pt game, lotsa time


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## FSH

HB said:


> Only a 7 pt game, lotsa time


Syracuse is just playing horrible today...They are not playing the way that got them to 20-1 they really need to turn it around esp on offense


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## JuniorNoboa

Guards shooting 1-16 today. **** me. This will piss me off all day if they lose.


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## JuniorNoboa

Depaul up 9. There goes the one seed.


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## JuniorNoboa

Unfortuantely I am not home and can only follow this game on gamecast. But it seems like we are missing a bunch of damn layups.


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## FSH

JuniorNoboa said:


> Unfortuantely I am not home and can only follow this game on gamecast. But it seems like we are missing a bunch of damn layups.


yah trust me you dont want to be watching its horrible...they are forcing alot of shot and layups and missing dumb shots not making the extra passing


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## JuniorNoboa

Syracuse on a 13-2 run, up 2 with three mintues to go. Have to pull this one out.


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## JuniorNoboa

Depaul has been the site of some of our worst games. I beleive two years ago, we lost by 41 at Depual, 109-68, or something like that.


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## FSH

JuniorNoboa said:


> Syracuse on a 13-2 run, up 2 with three mintues to go. Have to pull this one out.


Love the run they went on after i got pissed and turn the game off..

Also why THE HELL did Andy shoot that 3 with 6 sec still left on the shot clock that almost blow the game right there...This whole game Syracuse was forcing dumb shot and making mistake but that 3 almost blew the whole game for us it was a dumb mistake and Rautins should know better...Syracuse should have lost this game but they got lucky


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## JuniorNoboa

Syracuse pulls it out. I`ll take it I suppose - its better then losing.


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## JuniorNoboa

FSH said:


> Love the run they went on after i got pissed and turn the game off..
> 
> Also why THE HELL did Andy shoot that 3 with 6 sec still left on the shot clock that almost blow the game right there...This whole game Syracuse was forcing dumb shot and making mistake but that 3 almost blew the whole game for us it was a dumb mistake and Rautins should know better...Syracuse should have lost this game but they got lucky


thanks for that detail. Andy is usually a smart player but has games where he just looks totally out of it... I think it was his passing at Seton Hall that was atrociuos.


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## FSH

JN can you please tell me what the hell has happened to A.O? I mean he just doesnt look the same out there anymore the guy was a beast the last 2 season and this season has just been something different i think Boeheim should bench him and start Kris Joesph maybe that will light a fire under his ***


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## Jonathan Watters

Do you folks realize how good DeMarcus Cousins is? He reminds me of a blend of Chris Webber and Eddy Curry. Too bad his persona reminds of a different Eddie (Griffin). 

He'd easily be the #2 pick in this draft if he wasn't 100% crazy.


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## Jonathan Watters

Texas should spend every minute of every practice the rest of the season learning how to defend the pick and roll.


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## HB

Demarcus Cousins reminds me of Zach Randolph and being the number 2 pick in the draft really? You'd pick him over Evan Turner?


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## Jonathan Watters

Jonathan Watters said:


> if he wasn't 100% crazy.


Quoting myself makes me feel dirty when I'm done...


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## HB

You think that matters, he hasn't gotten into any trouble off the court. I think that wont matter when it comes to him unless he really does something off the wall (no pun intended)


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## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> Demarcus Cousins reminds me of Zach Randolph


Add two inches and replace 20 pounds of fat with muscle...

Is that player not freaking ridiculous?


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## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> You think that matters, he hasn't gotten into any trouble off the court. I think that wont matter when it comes to him unless he really does something off the wall (no pun intended)


It absolutely matters to GM's who have their jobs on the line. Especially when you have a sure thing contributor and non-problem child like Evan Turner available. 

If it didn't matter, guys like Eddie Griffin and Eddy Curry would be dominating the league right now.


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## HB

Kmart was taken 1, Amare in the lotto, Beasley number 2, basically these guys that are supposed headcases with a lot of talent still get looked at, guess its a case by case type thing. And no the Zbo comparison wasn't supposed to be a slight, but it must be said that Zbo worked HIS *** off to be as good as he is right now. Not sure Cousins has that work ethic, heck very few players do.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

Statistically Cousins may be the best player in the country (if you consider minutes played) ... not saying he is the best player, just by statistical measurements he is close to it.

With more minutes Cousins is this year`s Durant, Beasley, Melo.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

Headed into the Vandy game, in which he has made an excellent front line look like a bunch of JV kids...

30.6 pts/40
18.6 reb/40
3.6 blk/40

And he does this in spite of spending about 75% of his time on the court talking trash to the opponents, complaining to the officials, or whining at his coach.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> Kmart was taken 1, Amare in the lotto, Beasley number 2, basically these guys that are supposed headcases with a lot of talent still get looked at, guess its a case by case type thing. And no the Zbo comparison wasn't supposed to be a slight, but it must be said that Zbo worked HIS *** off to be as good as he is right now. Not sure Cousins has that work ethic, heck very few players do.


Dude, Kmart, Aamre and Beasley had absolutely nowhere near the demeanor problems that Cousins has. Amare and Kmart never showed anything even remotely resembling Cousins' issues. Beasley did, but almost never on the court. 

Completely different situations.


----------



## JuniorNoboa

FSH said:


> JN can you please tell me what the hell has happened to A.O? I mean he just doesnt look the same out there anymore the guy was a beast the last 2 season and this season has just been something different i think Boeheim should bench him and start Kris Joesph maybe that will light a fire under his ***


He was a beast as a soph and a beast in the non conference season as a junior... I remember how good he was against Memphis and Kansas last year. 

Then starting the conference season last year he had a really bad case of tendinitis, and my best guess is that this may still be hampering him. He still has that great touch around the basket (other then the FT line) but these issues have really made him less explosive around the basket, and hurt his agility... defensive rebounding is an issue this year. He is also a bit more bulky. He still runs the floor pretty well when he gets going at times.

Perhaps its something else, but as I said my best guess is lingering tendinitis.


----------



## HB

> Dude, Kmart, Aamre and Beasley had absolutely nowhere near the demeanor problems that Cousins has. Amare and Kmart never showed anything even remotely resembling Cousins' issues. Beasley did, but almost never on the court.
> 
> Completely different situations.


You are talking about on court issues, so the guy whines to officials, we are talking about guys (Amare and Beasley) that bounced around so many schools, also Beasley's immaturity was well known. I'd be more worried if I were a GM about players that 'cant' stick around in schools, than a guy who acts like a goon on the court. With that said, I dont really like Cousins and I think Patterson is a better team player.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> And no the Zbo comparison wasn't supposed to be a slight, but it must be said that Zbo worked HIS *** off to be as good as he is right now. Not sure Cousins has that work ethic, heck very few players do.


Really? Randolph is a product of hard work? The guy who until this year had shown absolutely zero work ethic, and had been relying on his natural ability to score with his back to the basket since he was in high school? 

Wow. It never ceases to amaze me what people say on an internet message board...


----------



## JuniorNoboa

I would say KMart`s character was more a plus then a negative when he was drated --- he was highly committed to improving his game and the results showed the last two years. He pushed his talent levels..... that is not always the case with headcases... to me I think of Eddie Griffin and Tim Thomas.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> You are talking about on court issues, so the guy whines to officials, we are talking about guys (Amare and Beasley) that bounced around so many schools, also Beasley's immaturity was well known. I'd be more worried if I were a GM about players that 'cant' stick around in schools, than a guy who acts like a goon on the court. With that said, I dont really like Cousins and I think Patterson is a better team player.


Obviously you aren't watching much of Kentucky if you honestly think Cousins' on-court insanity doesn't reflect off-court issues - and that Patterson is the better player, for that matter.


----------



## HB

I absolutely love what the K.state fans do before they start games. Dont know what its called, but its fun as heck.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

JuniorNoboa said:


> I would say KMart`s character was more a plus then a negative when he was drated --- he was highly committed to improving his game and the results showed the last two years.


Of course it was a positive. People who were following the draft in 2000 know this. Absurd to compare Kenyon Martin to DeMarcus Cousins.


----------



## HB

Jonathan Watters said:


> Obviously you aren't watching much of Kentucky if you honestly think Cousins' on-court insanity doesn't reflect off-court issues - and that Patterson is the better player, for that matter.


If you think of it, they are both 6'10, can handle the ball relatively well for their size, Patterson is the way better shooter, the guy's a legit 3pt shooter. His footwork in the post is better than Cousins. Cousins is stronger, so he bullies his way in the post and of course gigantic length, he can get rebounds over opponents easily. Patterson is more skilled, he's just too damn passive.

Lol at not watching much of Kentucky, thats my former school.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

You think Patrick Patterson and DeMarcus Cousins are the same height? 

You think Patrick Patterson has better post footwork than DeMarcus Cousins? 

Just how do you explain Cousins having the best PER in the last 5 years of college basketball? 

:funny:

Is he just getting lucky?


----------



## bball2223

Call me crazy, but ever since SEC play began Cousins has been the best player in college basketball. If he keeps working he is going to be a beast on the next level.


----------



## HB

I just mentioned Cousins overpowers his defenders in the post. He's stronger and bigger than damn near every player he faces. He's a man amongst boys. When both players stand next to each other, there's no glaring difference in height. I mean give or take its an inch or two that differentiates them. They are both PF's on the next level. 90% of Cousins shots come from the interior, of course he will be more efficient. Isn't that what PER measures? I also recall saying Patterson IS TOO DAMN passive. Cousins is much more active on the offensive side of the court. Never said anything about him being 'lucky'. Stop trying to twist this.

With that said, Patterson is shooting 61% from the field and 37% from the perimeter. Putting up 15.4ppg and this is all without trying to be overly aggressive.


----------



## Blue

bball2223 said:


> Call me crazy, but ever since SEC play began Cousins has been the best player in college basketball. If he keeps working he is going to be a beast on the next level.


This.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> I just mentioned Cousins overpowers his defenders in the post. He's stronger and bigger than damn near every player he faces. He's a man amongst boys. When both players stand next to each other, there's no glaring difference in height. I mean give or take its an inch or two that differentiates them. They are both PF's on the next level. 90% of Cousins shots come from the interior, of course he will be more efficient. Isn't that what PER measures? I also recall saying Patterson IS TOO DAMN passive. Cousins is much more active on the offensive side of the court. Never said anything about him being 'lucky'. Stop trying to twist this.
> 
> With that said, Patterson is shooting 61% from the field and 37% from the perimeter. Putting up 15.4ppg and this is all without trying to be overly aggressive.


He's shooting 61% from the floor because he's passive, not in spite of it. If you gave him the ball in the post every time down the floor and asked him to create his own, he couldn't even approach Cousins' effectiveness. Either way, he doesn't. 

And Cousins is most definitely a C at the next level.


----------



## Nimreitz

HB said:


> You'd pick him over Evan Turner?





Jonathan Watters said:


> It absolutely matters to GM's who have their jobs on the line. Especially when you have a sure thing contributor and non-problem child like Evan Turner available.


Guys, his name is "The Villain".


----------



## HB

Jonathan Watters said:


> He's shooting 61% from the floor because he's passive, not in spite of it. If you gave him the ball in the post every time down the floor and asked him to create his own, he couldn't even approach Cousins' effectiveness. Either way, he doesn't.
> 
> And Cousins is most definitely a C at the next level.


Ugh! Patterson has one of the best jump hooks in the game, Cousins cant even do that. Cousins is a goonish type player that once again is bigger and stronger than most guys his face. Patterson is a finesse player. You can even run the guy off screens like a guard, and he'll nail the jumper nicely.

Look people, Patterson is going to be 21 in March. Graduates in 3 years. When he came into college, he couldn't hit the mid range J, he played like Cousins now. In 3 years, he's hitting 3 point shots like he is a guard. We are talking about a high IQ player here.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> Ugh! Patterson has one of the best jump hooks in the game, Cousins cant even do that. Cousins is a goonish type player that once again is bigger and stronger than most guys his face. Patterson is a finesse player. You can even run the guy off screens like a guard, and he'll nail the jumper nicely.
> 
> Look people, Patterson is going to be 21 in March. Graduates in 3 years. When he came into college, he couldn't hit the mid range J, he played like Cousins now. In 3 years, he's hitting 3 point shots like he is a guard. We are talking about a high IQ player here.


No he absolutely did not play like Cousins does now. If he did, Cousins wouldn't have the top PER in college basketball since 2001-02. Patterson wasn't ever remotely as effective as Cousins is right now, nor will he ever be. 

Are you actually implying that Patterson deserves more touches at the expense of Cousins? Why do you think Cousins is getting those touches instead of Patterson? Is it just that John Calipari is an idiot, and Cousins' historic effectiveness is still just luck?


But that's right. Patterson is the same size as Cousins, the better post scorer, and played just like Cousins as a freshman. Keep the humor coming...


----------



## Nimreitz

No one questioned Cousins like I did, but I gotta admit the kid looks fantastic right now.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

Nimreitz said:


> No one questioned Cousins like I did, but I gotta admit the kid looks fantastic right now.


I think everybody questioned him, and for good reason. His on-court behavior is completely inappropriate. I can't recall another player displaying such immaturity and lack of self control on a regular basis. Any GM with a Top 5 pick is going to have to think long and hard before drafting him for that reason alone. 

But to put things in perspective, he put up 27 pts and 12 reb in 34 minutes in the loss to SC. These numbers are below average when compared to his season productivity.


----------



## HB

JWatters, you seem to be missing the point as to why Cousins' PER is so high, and its the same reason why Dwight and other dominant bigs usually have high PERS when 90% of your shots are in the paint, its a great ****ing chance that you have high shooting percentages. For every missed 3pt shot Patterson takes, heck for every missed midrange shot he takes, his efficiency/PER drops. Cal has done a great job getting Cousins to play mostly in the paint.

LOL at the questions about whether Patterson should get more touches. Ummm YA!!! Gillespie said the same thing, so did Cal. Heck if you go back to the SC game, particularly at half time, Cal basically called Patterson out without mentioning his name. Every coach that worked with the guy has said he needs to take more shots.

When did I say Patterson played just like Cousins as a freshman? You are getting dangerously close to twisting my words if you arent doing that already.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> JWatters, you seem to be missing the point as to why Cousins' PER is so high, and its the same reason why Dwight and other dominant bigs usually have high PERS when 90% of your shots are in the paint, its a great ****ing chance that you have high shooting percentages. For every missed 3pt shot Patterson takes, heck for every missed midrange shot he takes, his efficiency/PER drops. Cal has done a great job getting Cousins to play mostly in the paint.


Cousins' PER isn't just high. It is THE HIGHEST in the last 8 years of college basketball. TONS of players only play in the post. Are you saying that if Patterson quit shooting the occasional three-pointer, he'd have the highest PER in the last 8 years of college basketball? 

And you accuse ME of missing the point? 



> LOL at the questions about whether Patterson should get more touches. Ummm YA!!! Gillespie said the same thing, so did Cal. Heck if you go back to the SC game, particularly at half time, Cal basically called Patterson out without mentioning his name. Every coach that worked with the guy has said he needs to take more shots.


And he should get these touches at the expense of the guy who is far and away the most effective post scorer in the game? Is that what you are saying? 



> When did I say Patterson played just like Cousins as a freshman? You are getting dangerously close to twisting my words if you arent doing that already.


Hmm...



HB said:


> When he came into college, he couldn't hit the mid range J, he played like Cousins now.


----------



## HB

Who knows, guy is shooting 61% from the field right now, you do realize thats quite high for a guy who isn't strictly in the post right? If he strictly took interior shots, I bet you his numbers are even better.

And I dont know how many times I will say this, but I'll say it again, COUSINS IS BIGGER AND STRONGER than every guy he faces on a nightly basis. Its almost a guarantee that his PER will be high. Dude Dwight Howard is one of the most efficient players in the league, would anyone in their right mind say Dwight has more post moves than KG? 



> And he should get these touches at the expense of the guy who is far and away the most effective post scorer in the game? Is that what you are saying?


His coaches want him to shoot more, but the guy also knows that for the team to win he has to take the backseat to the guy who can get easy points. Why are you trying to play this silly game? You are better than this. At this point, it doesnt make sense for Patterson to force things, simply because there's so much talent around him. They are winning with Cousins being the focal point down low.


----------



## HB

Lol and interestingly enough, I go to your site and see that Cousins is shooting 54% from the field as compared to Patterson's 61%. I mean its a given that if Patterson didnt take 3's, his FG% and yes his PER would increase.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> Who knows, guy is shooting 61% from the field right now, you do realize thats quite high for a guy who isn't strictly in the post right? If he strictly took interior shots, I bet you his numbers are even better.


You are looking at it wrong. Patterson may shoot a few more lower percentage outside shots, but he's only taken 27 3's on the year. On the other hand, he's not being featured in the post, so when he does take an inside shot it is far more likely to be a dunk or a wide open layup. The net effect of all of this is a much higher field goal percentage. 

Usage/efficiency tradeoff 101. If he was a feature post player, his field goal percentage absolutely would drop. 

I'd also point out that if he's turned himself into such an efficient jump shooter, how come he's shooting 60% from the line - by far the worst percentage of his career? 



> And I dont know how many times I will say this, but I'll say it again, COUSINS IS BIGGER AND STRONGER than every guy he faces on a nightly basis. Its almost a guarantee that his PER will be high. Dude Dwight Howard is one of the most efficient players in the league, would anyone in their right mind say Dwight has more post moves than KG?


No, of course not. And if you look at the stats, Dwight Howard's best PER year isn't as good as KG's average in his prime. This is because KG is the better player. Just like DeMarcus Cousins is better than Patrick Patterson. 

I really couldn't care less if Patterson is more skilled doing perimeter things. Cousins is dramatically more effective on the block. 

What you fail to understand is that Cousins is going to be bigger and stronger than everybody he faces at the next level as well. His footwork, touch, and feel for how to score on the block are astonishing for a player of his size, and shouldn't be brushed off as lightly as you seem to be brushing them off. 

Please keep in mind that AJ Ogilvy isn't some 6'8 chump who will be mixing it up in Bulgaria next year. Ogilvy is a legit 7-footer who was dominating high-level international competition three years ago. 

And Cousins made him look like a clown. 





> His coaches want him to shoot more, but the guy also knows that for the team to win he has to take the backseat to the guy who can get easy points. Why are you trying to play this silly game? You are better than this. At this point, it doesnt make sense for Patterson to force things, simply because there's so much talent around him. They are winning with Cousins being the focal point down low.


Thank you. You are absolutely correct that it doesn't make sense for anyone other than the guy with the best stats this decade to be the focal point down low. I didn't realize it was going to 10 posts and half a dozen increasingly ludicrous statements for you to admit it, but at least you finally woke up.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> Lol and interestingly enough, I go to your site and see that Cousins is shooting 54% from the field as compared to Patterson's 61%. I mean its a given that if Patterson didnt take 3's, his FG% and yes his PER would increase.


Not really. You are cherry picking FG%, where PER looks at overall scoring efficiency. 

Shooting 10-27 on 3's is like shooting 15-27 on 2's. This is 55.6%. Considering what a low % of his overall FGA's are 3's, his PER would barely move at all. 

Now if his % of shots that aren't open dunks/fast break finishes were to rise dramatically, his FG% absolutely would decline. 

I'm not going to continue explaining how more advanced metrics work to someone who clearly has no interest in actually learning about them, but I will say this - looking only at FG% ignores Cousins' free throw rate, which is extremely high for a player who shoots as often as he does.


----------



## HB

I was about to say, you do realize Cousins PER is higher than Patterson's despite the disparity in FG% because Cousins takes high percentage shots and also makes a lot of his free throws. The other guy by taking 3's or perimeter shots (mid-range that is) can't do as well in that field.

Since you've written all that about Cousins and why he is the 'feature' player in the post. Can you please explain to me why Calipari wants Patterson to shoot more?

I did chuckle about the Ogilvy part of your post. Thats good stuff. Also I never said Cousins shouldnt be the focal point, he gets easy points. I am saying, UK's coaches all want Patterson to be more assertive BECAUSE THEY KNOW he is a gifted scorer.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

I will also say that if Patterson were the self-sacrificing martyr you seem to think he is, he'd accept his role as a secondary scorer and grab more than 4 rebounds in 30 minutes. On the other hand, Cousins grabbed 10 boards in just 20 minutes.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> I was about to say, you do realize Cousins PER is higher than Patterson's despite the disparity in FG% because Cousins takes high percentage shots and also makes a lot of his free throws. The other guy by taking 3's or perimeter shots (mid-range that is) can't do as well in that field.


Still, irrelevant. Cousins' appeal is that he can get a high percentage shot literally whenever he wants. Patterson simply can't match this. End of story. 



> Since you've written all that about Cousins and why he is the 'feature' player in the post. Can you please explain to me why Calipari wants Patterson to shoot more?


Because Patterson is also an efficient scorer. I've never said that he shouldn't shoot more. This started as a discussion of Cousins, and you claimed that Patterson is the better player. I absolutely do not think that Patterson should get more shots at the expense of Cousins. 



> I did chuckle about the Ogilvy part of your post. Thats good stuff. Also I never said Cousins shouldnt be the focal point, he gets easy points. I am saying, UK's coaches all want Patterson to be more assertive BECAUSE THEY KNOW he is a gifted scorer.


I won't argue with that. He is a gifted scorer and a gifted player. I take issue with your statement that Patterson is better, and your implications that Patterson should be getting more looks instead of Cousins.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> I did chuckle about the Ogilvy part of your post. Thats good stuff. Also I never said Cousins shouldnt be the focal point, he gets easy points. I am saying, UK's coaches all want Patterson to be more assertive BECAUSE THEY KNOW he is a gifted scorer.


It may seem like a joke about Ogilvy, but really these are the types of things that matter to me. It is one thing if Cousins has the nation's highest PER because he scored 30 points in 10 minutes of garbage time vs NJIT. 

But when he keeps it up against a guy like Ogilvy and other Vandy frontcourt players that are more than capable of putting up a fight? 

That was a much more telling preview of what he'll be doing as a pro next year than his impressive stats...


----------



## HB

Lol ACTUALLY i said Patterson is a better team player, you twisted my words into something else. I kept repeating, but you kept ignoring, the fact that Cousins puts up those numbers because he can overpower guys in the post and obviously he's skilled, but if you watch or have watched UK for the past couple of years, you know damn sure he hasn't shown as much offensive moves in the post as Patterson. But somehow you keep confusing that as saying Patterson is the better player.



> Really? Randolph is a product of hard work? The guy who until this year had shown absolutely zero work ethic, and had been relying on his natural ability to score with his back to the basket since he was in high school?
> 
> Wow. It never ceases to amaze me what people say on an internet message board...


BTW I missed this, please tell me this is a joke, Zbo the year after microfracture surgery put up 20/10, he's been doing that for a couple of seasons, you think an unathletic, 6'8 player gets that good without hardwork. Really?



> I won't argue with that. He is a gifted scorer and a gifted player. I take issue with your statement that Patterson is better, and your implications that Patterson should be getting more looks instead of Cousins.


Except for the fact that I didnt say that which goes back to your martyr statement, dude takes the backseat to get team wins. His coach acknowledges, pretty much every TV pundit does too, all except for you that is. Look if the gap between both players are as large as you claim, why does YOUR SITE have Patterson a spot below Cousins?


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> Lol ACTUALLY i said Patterson is a better team player, you twisted my words into something else. I kept repeating, but you kept ignoring, the fact that Cousins puts up those numbers because he can overpower guys in the post and obviously he's skilled, but if you watch or have watched UK for the past couple of years, you know damn sure he hasn't shown as much offensive moves in the post as Patterson. But somehow you keep confusing that as saying Patterson is the better player.


In the sense that Dirk Nowitzki has more post moves than Shaquille O'Neal, sure Patterson is more skilled in the post than Cousins. 

What does it mean? Absolutely nothing. Cousins is far and away the more effective player in the post. Just like if you've got to get the ball to somebody on the block, there is no question who it will go to if the choices are Dirk and Shaq. 



> BTW I missed this, please tell me this is a joke, Zbo the year after microfracture surgery put up 20/10, he's been doing that for a couple of seasons, you think an unathletic, 6'8 player gets that good without hardwork. Really?


I wonder how a 6'8 unathletic post player averages 20/10 in the first place. And the answer is that he was hard-wired, from birth, with the ability to score in the post. Athleticism really isn't a part of his game, so obviously he's going to come back from microfracture surgery more easily than somebody like Amare. 

And it is an absolute undisputed fact that he's played the vast majority of his career completely out of shape. 



> Except for the fact that I didnt say that which goes back to your martyr statement, dude takes the backseat to get team wins. His coach acknowledges, pretty much every TV pundit does too, all except for you that is. Look if the gap between both players are as large as you claim, why does YOUR SITE have Patterson a spot below Cousins?


I acknowledge he's a team player. He's good. Never said he wasn't. (now who is twisting words?) Should he get more than 4 rebounds in 30 minutes? Absolutely. 

As for the reason, it is clearly stated on the site (which isn't mine), and clearly stated by me in my first post about Cousins on this thread. Why do you ask a question you already know the answer to?


----------



## HB

Might not mean anything to you, but for a team that wants a big man that can play inside and outside...well yeah!

As for Zbo, being out of shape doesn't mean he doesnt work hard on his game. Look man you dont become that good of an outside shooter by just waking up and showing up to games. You also dont bounce back from that type of surgery, without putting some type of work into fitness.

Patterson averages 7.9rpg in 32mins of play, wouldn't logic tell you that the 4 rebs thing is an anomaly not the norm...


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> Might not mean anything to you, but for a team that wants a big man that can play inside and outside...well yeah!


So your answer to my question on who to give the ball to on the block is to give it to the guy who can play on the outside also? If the ball is going to the block, I'd rather have the best block scorer get it, and let the perimeter scorer get the ball on the perimeter. Crazy, I know...



> As for Zbo, being out of shape doesn't mean he doesnt work hard on his game. Look man you dont become that good of an outside shooter by just waking up and showing up to games. You also dont bounce back from that type of surgery, without putting some type of work into fitness.


Randolph has been shooting that way since he was in high school. There's a reason that a fat 6'8 post player was the #1 rated high school player country. 

Obviously he had to work some. But you were hyping him up as some sort of ordinary talent that made his way to the top through his work ethic. That is embarrassingly untrue. 

He's one of the most naturally talented post players of the last 20 years, and his legacy will be just as much about what he could have accomplished as it will be about what he actually accomplished. These are facts. 



> Patterson averages 7.9rpg in 32mins of play, wouldn't logic tell you that the 4 rebs thing is an anomaly not the norm...


Yes. 

But he hasn't had a double-digit rebounding effort in about 10 games. Given that this is his most marketable skill, and the one that he should be focusing on the most if he were 100% focused on playing the role that best helps his team win games, it is a bit strange that his rebounding is in a state of decline...


----------



## HB

> So your answer to my question on who to give the ball to on the block is to give it to the guy who can play on the outside also?


Nope, I thought we've already been through this. Again, just saying if Patterson got touches, cut down on 3's, chances are his efficiency which is already damn good, would be even better. Cousins gets easier points because he is bigger and stronger not because he is Hakeem Olajuwon out there.



> Randolph has been shooting that way since he was in high school. There's a reason that a fat 6'8 post player was the #1 rated high school player country.
> 
> Obviously he had to work some. But you were hyping him up as some sort of ordinary talent that made his way to the top through his work ethic. That is embarrassingly untrue.
> 
> He's one of the most naturally talented post players of the last 20 years, and his legacy will be just as much about what he could have accomplished as it will be about what he actually accomplished. These are facts.


Now the talent point might actually stick if we werent talking about microfracture surgery and how he bounced back to form. This is one of the trickiest surgeries out there and yes there are numerous articles that detailed how much hard work Zach put in to get back to form. If I didn't read all those articles I might actually agree with what your saying.



> Yes.
> 
> But he hasn't had a double-digit rebounding effort in about 10 games. Given that this is his most marketable skill, and the one that he should be focusing on the most if he were 100% focused on playing the role that best helps his team win games, it is a bit strange that his rebounding is in a state of decline...


Meh he doesnt really need to rebound like crazy, when there's Orton and Cousins on the same team.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> Nope, I thought we've already been through this. Again, just saying if Patterson got touches, cut down on 3's, chances are his efficiency which is already damn good, would be even better. Cousins gets easier points because he is bigger and stronger not because he is Hakeem Olajuwon out there.


Which, of course, is still ridiculous. As I've stated. He doesn't shoot enough 3's or shoot them poorly enough to make one bit of difference when it comes to his efficiency. I actually did the math for you, and you are still insisting on keeping your head in the sand? 



> Now the talent point might actually stick if we werent talking about microfracture surgery and how he bounced back to form. This is one of the trickiest surgeries out there and yes there are numerous articles that detailed how much hard work Zach put in to get back to form. If I didn't read all those articles I might actually agree with what your saying.


So he worked hard to come back from an injury. That doesn't excuse his not being in shape or putting in any effort whatsoever on the defensive end for the vast majority of his career. You said you didn't know if DeMarcus Cousins would put in the work. Will he put in more work than Randolph did on his body and on the defensive end? He already has! 



> Meh he doesnt really need to rebound like crazy, when there's Orton and Cousins on the same team.


Well, Patterson's future in the league is as a rebounder. So he better start. And if the issue is Cousins as the shooter and Patterson as the rebounder or vice versa, the answer is freaking obvious to everyone - except for you, apparently. Lately, Cousins has been the shooter and the rebounder. This reflects well on Patterson how?


----------



## HB

Lol Zach Randolph isnt playing any better defense this year than his past years, he is trying doesnt mean he is succeeding at it.

As for Patterson, I see him being a Horford/Millsap type player, he can do better than rebound. At the end of the day, stats how he's averaging 8rpg this year, thats darn good.

Why do you keep ignoring the fact that Patterson's coach says he wants him to shoot more? How am I supposed to know why Patterson isn't doing so? I already acknowledged he is too damn passive. If Cousins is doing so great as you say, why does his coach want the other forward taking shots away from him?


----------



## TYO23

I have a man crush on Sherron Collins...Im not afraid to admit it. He's so clutch for us


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> Lol Zach Randolph isnt playing any better defense this year than his past years, he is trying doesnt mean he is succeeding at it.


You honestly believe the words you just typed? Have you ever actually watched Zach Randolph "try" to play defense? 

It must be nice to be able to make stuff up as it suits your argument...



> As for Patterson, I see him being a Horford/Millsap type player, he can do better than rebound.


Never mind the fact that Horford and Millsap are both rebounding-first players...



> Why do you keep ignoring the fact that Patterson's coach says he wants him to shoot more? How am I supposed to know why Patterson isn't doing so? I already acknowledged he is too damn passive. If Cousins is doing so great as you say, why does his coach want the other forward taking shots away from him?


Oh, so now Calipari actually wants Cousins - the #1 offensive threat in the country - to shoot less. Just keep making things up...


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## SheriffKilla

I remember before the season we had a top NBA draft prospects and someone with 2 thumbs picked Cousins as a top 5 pick, and everyone was like why? omg...lol
Gotta agree with bball btw

Anyway, good one with KState/Kansas, KState is good this season, and next year everyone is coming back besides Clemente if they can get some legit PG play they could be a Final 4 team next season...


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## HB

Umm yeah I watched Zbo whilst he played at Portland, New York, LA and now at Memphis. The guy will never be a good defender. People want to act like all of a sudden he's some brand new player when in fact he was putting up numbers with Portland and New York. His not playing any better defense than he did with those teams. He's still getting scored on easily, still getting blown by, still not blocking shots, still not a good man to man defender, what exactly is he doing better besides watching his man go by him? .

Again, Patterson is averaging 8rpg for the season, lets just say the last few games are anomalies. He's never been known as a poor rebounder. Why is it a weakness all of a sudden?

And for the final paragraph, nice dodge. Again, the question is why does Cal want Patterson shooting more? I am only throwing out guesses, actually its a damn good question, if Patterson shoots more, someone has to shoot less, so again why does Cal want that? And oh by the way John Wall is the #1 offensive threat in the nation. Lets see how many games they win without Wall. Meanwhile Orton and Patterson can still hold the fort down without Cousins, but knowing you though, you probably take that as meaning they are better players.


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## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> Umm yeah I watched Zbo whilst he played at Portland, New York, LA and now at Memphis. The guy will never be a good defender. People want to act like all of a sudden he's some brand new player when in fact he was putting up numbers with Portland and New York. His not playing any better defense than he did with those teams. He's still getting scored on easily, still getting blown by, still not blocking shots, still not a good man to man defender, what exactly is he doing better besides watching his man go by him? .


I don't care what he is doing now or what he was doing then. The guy isn't an example of somebody overcoming a lack of natural talent through work ethic. If anything, he is an example of somebody wasting natural talent. You are embarrassing yourself even implying it. 



HB said:


> And for the final paragraph, nice dodge. Again, the question is why does Cal want Patterson shooting more? I am only throwing out guesses, actually its a damn good question, if Patterson shoots more, someone has to shoot less, so again why does Cal want that?


Does Cal refer to Cousins specifically as "somebody"? Did I miss that change somewhere? But you would never twist words. Right? 



> And oh by the way John Wall is the #1 offensive threat in the nation. Lets see how many games they win without Wall. Meanwhile Orton and Patterson can still hold the fort down without Cousins, but knowing you though, you probably take that as meaning they are better players.


The fact that Orton and Patterson are good players changes nothing about how good Cousins is. Ridiculous argument. Just like pretty much everything else you've said in this thread. 

And by now you are fully aware of this. But you are stubborn. 

Whatever floats your boat, I'm not letting you off the hook on any of it.


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## Nimreitz

JW, how did you get sucked into such a long argument with HB? Dude NEVER gives up. Ever. *EVER*.


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## Jonathan Watters

Mostly because I wanted to see how many ridiculous things I could get him to say. Its been quite the display...


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## HB

I personally think I am right because you twisted the very first thing that started all this.

*Read this will ya*



> Kentucky standout Patrick Patterson is scoring less and rebounding less, but winning more. It's a trade-off he finds acceptable.
> 
> "I'm not concerned about my points per game (and) my rebounds," Patterson said after UK beat Vanderbilt 85-72 on Saturday. "People out there know what I'm capable of and what I can do."
> 
> Patterson scored 12 points and grabbed four rebounds against the Commodores. Modest numbers for a player of his caliber. But it represented a step forward from the five-point, four-shot no-show at South Carolina.
> 
> "A lot better," he said. "I had a horrible game at South Carolina.
> 
> "I think I played pretty well (against Vandy). I could have played a lot better, but I'm satisfied."
> 
> Patterson was especially pleased with his career-high three three-pointers. "It felt great," he said. "I wanted to shoot more. The one I missed felt the best."
> 
> UK Coach John Calipari, who began one-on-one sessions with Patterson after the South Carolina game, noted UK's defeat earlier in the had many guilty parties, including the coach himself. He also noted how he wanted Patterson to be more assertive.
> 
> "He has to be a 17-point, 10-rebound guy," Calipari said before adding, "Let me say this, he's the least of our worries."


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## Jonathan Watters

So this does prove that Calipari wants Cousins to shoot less, that Zach Randolph is an example of where strong work ethic will get you, that Patterson's 10-27 3-point shooting explains why Cousins' PER is so much better, and that Patterson is a more skilled post player than DeMarcus Cousins!!!

How could I have been so wrong?!?!


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## HB

Lol common sense will tell you that if Patterson is going to shoot more, someone else will have to shoot less. Doesnt have to be Cousins I guess, but chances are the other front court guy probably takes less shots for Patterson to average what Cal wants him to do.

*
Zach and work ethic*



> "Is it possible for somebody to win the Most Improved Award twice?" asked John Hollinger of ESPN Insider.
> 
> "Randolph won it three years ago, but is playing ridiculously well to start this season, reminding everyone why the Blazers gave him that oft-ridiculed six-year, $84 million extension. Zach has become a dominant force on the block -- "hanging 35 and 37 points on the two L.A. teams was quite an eye-opener," Hollinger wrote.
> 
> So what is going on with Zach Randolph these days?
> 
> The soft-spoken Randolph has a one-word answer:
> 
> "Focus. That's the big difference," he says. "This year I'm focused on being the kind of player I always wanted to be."
> *
> But there's more to the story than that. It may sound trite, even in the world of sports jargon and endless clichés, but the real secret of Randolph's dominating performances so far this season has been hard work.*
> 
> "He's a gym-rat. He likes challenges and he wants to become a great player," said Brown, now an assistant coach with the Atlanta Hawks.
> 
> "He's got a lot going for him, not only his size and strength, but some good luck as well," Brown said.


That article came out in 02 by the way. You must be right though, Randolph had no work ethic lol.

As for the whole more skilled post player thing, at least I told you why I think Patterson is more skilled, and am not talking about perimeter skills. You on the other hand never disputed me on Cousins simply being able to overpower his opponents to score. What glorious post moves does he require to do that?


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## Willo

So, back on the topic of games that happened today/this week:

Cornell smoked Harvard. I expected them to win this game, but to win by 36 points? Harvard is a pretty good team, but Cornell could go undefeated in the Ivy League. It's not unheard of, it's happened six times in the last 15 years. Cornell was the last team to do it, too, in 2008.

Old Dominion lost to Northeastern, which moves George Mason into the lead in the CAA.

Charleston wins on the road against lowly Georgia Southern to stop the bleeding of two straight losses. They remain in charge of the Southern Conference, but their three game lead is now down to a game and a half.

Right now San Fran is taking Gonzaga to OT.

Marquette beats UConn on the road. Baylor beats Texas on the road.


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## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> Lol common sense will tell you that if Patterson is going to shoot more, someone else will have to shoot less. Doesnt have to be Cousins I guess, but chances are the other front court guy probably takes less shots for Patterson to average what Cal wants him to do.


The sad thing is that due to our little pissing contest you've deluded yourself so far that you actually believe Calipari is saying that he wants Cousins to shoot less. You should try to view reality for what it is, rather than attempting to warp it so you can win an argument.

The reality is that Patrick Patterson, a post player, is spending extra time in practice on his 3-point shot. Not his post moves. And then Calipari comes out and says he needs to shoot more. This tells you that he's supposed to go back in the post and take shots from Cousins how? 



> *
> Zach and work ethic*
> 
> 
> 
> That article came out in 02 by the way. You must be right though, Randolph had no work ethic lol.


You found an article that says Randolph has worked hard. Congratulations. Do you want me to post a dozen about how lazy he is? Does that mean that I get to win? 



> As for the whole more skilled post player thing, at least I told you why I think Patterson is more skilled, and am not talking about perimeter skills. You on the other hand never disputed me on Cousins simply being able to overpower his opponents to score. What glorious post moves does he require to do that?


Players as big as Cousins don't need to have Kevin McHale's post game to be as effective as Kevin McHale. Cousins is no McHale, but neither is Patterson. Far from it. 

Of course, you think that Patterson and Cousins are the same size. So just how does Cousins overpower his opponents while Patterson can't? Did I twist your words on that one?


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## HB

I am just telling you there's not enough shots to go around for Patterson to get the 17/10 Cal wants him to. Someone's shots have to go down, I'll agree it doesnt imply its Cousins, I am saying since he's the other post player, it just makes sense. And again stop trying to trivialize Pattersons' game. He's not KD out there, heis not camping out on the perimeter, he only takes those 3's when he is open. He is not in practice trying to turn himself into a guard, on the other hand, Cousins came to UK intent on doing just that. Patterson IS A POST player, dont get it confused.

AS for Zach, I'll let you in on a new secret, I have constantly defended him on this board, there's no article you can bring up on here about the guy's game that I probably don't know about. You easily dismiss an article that talks about how much work he put to improve his game, but you'd rather go with the herd argument that the guy's a lazy bum who turns it on at will. Except, why would he get a 84 mill contract from not having any work ethic? Talent only gets you so far.

As for final paragraph, I said when the two stand next each other, there's no glaring difference.

P.s. Texas lost again yesterday, no word on that from fellow board posters. This team aint ready.


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## HB

I get ticked when people try to prove me wrong on stuff I know

Kenyon Martin
Jamal Mashburn
Chris Weber
Jason Kidd 
Amare Stoudemire
Zach Randolph
Alan Houston

What do all those players have in common? Its called microfracture surgery. The only guy who bounced right back to form was Zach Randolph. Mashburn and Houston had to retire. Jason Kidd never regained his lateral quickness and stopped driving into the lane regularly. Weber was never the same player. It took Amare a couple of years to get back his explosiveness, same for Kmart who it took longer. Zach was the quickest to get back to 20/10 form. So tell me how the **** does an overweight guy with lazy work ethic, get his body and legs back into shape to put up all star caliber numbers? MAYBE THATS BECAUSE THAT MAKES NO DAMN SENSE. Dude worked his butt off thats why. Debunk that.


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## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> I am just telling you there's not enough shots to go around for Patterson to get the 17/10 Cal wants him to. Someone's shots have to go down, I'll agree it doesnt imply its Cousins, I am saying since he's the other post player, it just makes sense.


It makes sense that the guy with #1 PER since 2001-02 is the guy Calipari is wishing would shoot less? 




> And again stop trying to trivialize Pattersons' game. He's not KD out there, heis not camping out on the perimeter, he only takes those 3's when he is open. He is not in practice trying to turn himself into a guard, on the other hand, Cousins came to UK intent on doing just that. Patterson IS A POST player, dont get it confused.


I'm not trivializing about Patterson. You have a problem with Cousins being better and getting more shots. Considering how good he is and that you are a Kentucky fan, I have no idea how this is possible. But claiming Cousins is better does not automatically mean I am trivializing Patterson's game. 

The fact that Patterson is looking for new ways to score certainly says a lot about his role on this team vs Cousins' role, however. The amazing thing is that it appears Calipari realizes it, and that Patterson realizes it. You, somehow, do not. 



> AS for Zach, I'll let you in on a new secret, I have constantly defended him on this board, there's no article you can bring up on here about the guy's game that I probably don't know about. You easily dismiss an article that talks about how much work he put to improve his game, but you'd rather go with the herd argument that the guy's a lazy bum who turns it on at will. Except, why would he get a 84 mill contract from not having any work ethic? Talent only gets you so far.


Obviously you've got a fetish for Randolph and I'm not ever going to change your opinion on him. As for the $84 mil contract, I could ask why a 20-10 player would essentially get cut from a team that desperately needed his post scoring presence, but you are obviously an expert at picking and choosing what facts you choose acknowledge. 



> As for final paragraph, I said when the two stand next each other, there's no glaring difference.


And if you can actually say that, you might as well say whatever you want. Just keep making it up as you go along. 



> P.s. Texas lost again yesterday, no word on that from fellow board posters. This team aint ready.


Absolutely not. I've watched most of their games in recent weeks, and they are clearly struggling. Some of it has to do with too many cooks in the kitchen, some of it has to do with Barnes' coaching. 

Has Dexter Pittman lived up to the hype I gave him after the UNC game? Absolutely not. I don't think he's being utilized correctly, but his rebounding numbers have been embarrassing lately. I'll let the season play out and I still believe in him as a talent, but obviously he's been a huge disappointment lately.


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## coolpohle

Virginia opens the 2nd half on an 18-3 run to lead UNC by 20 with 13 to go.


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## HB

Okay Cal doesnt want Cousins to shoot less, do explain where the touches Patterson needs to put up 17 and 10 will come from.

Lol I dont have any problem with Cousins putting up better numbers, but then again if you look at raw stats, one guy's putting up 16ppg, the other is putting up 15.4ppg. One guy's shooting 61% from the field, the other is at 54%. Lol you keep trying to make it out like there's some huge difference between both players.

Lol thats all you have to say about Zach, especially when I went into detail about other players that went through the same ordeal he did. Its okay you can be like everyone else who called the guy a cancer and never took time to actually know more about the player. I knew you couldn't debunk that part though.

The Texas comment wasn't even directed at you. I havent even thought about Dexter Pittman since that UNC game.


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## HB

coolpohle said:


> Virginia opens the 2nd half on an 18-3 run to lead UNC by 20 with 13 to go.


Painful game to watch.


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## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> Okay Cal doesnt want Cousins to shoot less, do explain where the touches Patterson needs to put up 17 and 10 will come from.


I've already explained it. There is a reason he's shooting more 3's. You are the one who keeps talking about how much more versatile and skilled Patterson is. Just fess up and admit that you can't handle your precious upperclassman losing his role to a freshman that's a different level of talented. 



> Lol I dont have any problem with Cousins putting up better numbers, but then again if you look at raw stats, one guy's putting up 16ppg, the other is putting up 15.4ppg. One guy's shooting 61% from the field, the other is at 54%. Lol you keep trying to make it out like there's some huge difference between both players.


There is. Considering Cousins is putting up better raw stats in freaking 1/2 the minutes. Are you really such a pathetic person that you would resort to such a ridiculous argument? 



> Lol thats all you have to say about Zach, especially when I went into detail about other players that went through the same ordeal he did. Its okay you can be like everyone else who called the guy a cancer and never took time to actually know more about the player. I knew you couldn't debunk that part though.


I didn't realize making a list of players who have had microfracture surgery is "in detail". Only in your world. 

And it is still a joke that you think a guy who is so talented he can score 20/10 when he's completely out of shape is an example of a strong work ethic and your rationale is the guy who doesn't need to be in shape to score 20/10 came back from from a knee injury to average the 20/10 he never needed to be in shape to average in the first place.


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## Seanzie

USF beat Pittsburgh. Biggest win in our basketball program's history!


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## bball2223

Watching my Heels this year is too frustrating. I still do when I get the chance, but it's painful to watch. Instead of progressing we are regressing. I really hope Marshall, Barnes, and Bullock are ready to go next year because we need perimeter players.


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## HB

What is the reason for him shooting more 3's? This should be interesting. It hasnt occured to you, that maybe he's just trying to improve his game. Speaking of Zbo, you know he also takes the occasional 3 nowadays, bet that doesn't qualify as hard work huh lol

What ridiculous argument are you referring to in paragraph 2? Anywhoo since when is 20.9mins half of 32.3mins. The most incredible thing is Cousins takes more FGA attempts in less minutes, but according to you there's no way Patterson takes away some of his touches to get more points. Gotcha!

Lol you should stop talking about Zach, seriously you dont know what the heck you are going on about. Again he cant be out of shape, if he can get into shape to put up 20/10 right after microfracture surgery. I put up an article that talks about the hard work he put in, you dismissed it at fluff. Nevermind the fact that the article was from the team and has quotes from his coach and team officials.

And yes microfracture surgery is one of the, if not the most controversial surgery in basketball.


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## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> What is the reason for him shooting more 3's? This should be interesting. It hasnt occured to you, that maybe he's just trying to improve his game. Speaking of Zbo, you know he also takes the occasional 3 nowadays, bet that doesn't qualify as hard work huh lol


He's shooting more 3's because everybody (except for you, of course) realizes that Cousins is the #1 option in the paint now, and developing more of a perimeter game is what his team needs of him.



> What ridiculous argument are you referring to in paragraph 2? Anywhoo since when is 20.9mins half of 32.3mins. The most incredible thing is Cousins takes more FGA attempts in less minutes, but according to you there's no way Patterson takes away some of his touches to get more points. Gotcha!


Since when does an argument about who is more productive between players who average similar stats change because a guy plays half as many minutes or 3/5 as many minutes? 

And maybe Patterson could focus on shooting more in the 19.1 minutes that Cousins isn't on the floor. But wait, that would make sense. And you are well past making any sense. 



> Lol you should stop talking about Zach, seriously you dont know what the heck you are going on about. Again he cant be out of shape, if he can get into shape to put up 20/10 right after microfracture surgery. I put up an article that talks about the hard work he put in, you dismissed it at fluff. Nevermind the fact that the article was from the team and has quotes from his coach and team officials.


Quit with the tunnel vision. Randolph making a nice comeback from a knee injury doesn't mean we simply ignore the rest of his career where he has largely played out of shape. Except for you. You can ignore an entire trend because of the outlier. Whatever it takes...



> And yes microfracture surgery is one of the, if not the most controversial surgery in basketball.


Really?


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## HB

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on Patterson. We will see how he does in the league next year.

As for Randolph, dude please stop talking like you know anything about him. You are being just as ignorant as most of the posters on this board, that read a few headlines about him and labeled him a cancer. The perception about this guy is probably the worst of any player I have seen in recent memory, and its mostly from people who have never taken time to follow the guy. Again, you dont bounce back from microfracture surgery and start putting up 20/10 without working on your body and your game. You easily dismiss this point, but its a ****ing huge point, considering All stars like Kidd, Amare and Kmart took years to get back to form. 

You mention the guy's played out of shape for years, I have read numerous articles from his days with the Blazers, Knicks and Clips that say otherwise, so exactly where are you getting this point? He's a 6'8 non-athletic power forward, he needs that weight to bully players in the post.

Dont even try the whole he doesnt play defense thing, because I am positive you will never criticize Nash for not playing a lick of defense, bet you wont call him a lazy player though.


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