# Dwight or Yao? League top Center



## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

I think Dwight has finally arrived and should be on discussion on whether he's better than Yao.


So who do you think is the leagues Best Center? Yao or Dwight


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Howard by a little. By next year it won't even be a debate.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Rebounding is still the only thing dwight does better than yao


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Pimped Out said:


> Rebounding is still the only thing dwight does better than yao


This year Dwight is scoring the same with higher efficiency. Out-rebounding Yao by a lot. Out shot-blocking Yao. And historically, out-healthying Yao.

Oh - He's also losing TS%, Efficiency rating, and PER. And wins.

Yao might be a marginally better overall player right now but if I had my choice going forward between the two it would definitely be Dwight. And there isn't a lot of precedence for guys Yao's size staying healthy the later they get into their careers.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

Pimped Out said:


> Rebounding is still the only thing dwight does better than yao


Only? How about overall defense?


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

JNice said:


> This year Dwight is scoring the same with higher efficiency. Out-rebounding Yao by a lot. Out shot-blocking Yao. And historically, out-healthying Yao.
> 
> Oh - He's also losing TS%, Efficiency rating, and PER. And wins.
> 
> Yao might be a marginally better overall player right now but if I had my choice going forward between the two it would definitely be Dwight. And there isn't a lot of precedence for guys Yao's size staying healthy the later they get into their careers.


Yao efficiency is down this year but i expect it to get better as the season progresses. I also expect him to score more as the season progresses as he, and the rockets, get more acclimated to a completely different offense from what they were running a year ago. And because of Yao's free throw shooting, the difference in efficiency isnt that big right now.
I dont consider the shot blocking difference to be significant, especially this early in the season. From what i have seen of the two, yao is still a better defensive anchor (i have never seen tony parker so unwilling to attack the rim as he was against the rockets this year).

And i wouldnt get too excited about yao being out healthied by dwight. In yao's first three years in the league, he was an iron man too. After yao's first injury two years ago (actually an infection), people were really quick to start calling him injury prone.
There is also a lot of precedence for a guy of dwights size and athletic ability struggling with injuries.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

aznzen said:


> Only? How about overall defense?


at the least, they are even. at the best, yao is a better defensive anchor in the paint and an equal man defender


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Well ... I believe the thread itself is talking about right now ... and right now, Dwight is playing like the best C in the league, no question.

I would expect Yao to pick it up as well and I like Yao. But until he does, it is Dwight.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

I have said since last year that Dwight is the Best Center in the league. It is obvious. Yao is good, but Dwight just has that presence on the boards, on D, and now on Off, that Yoa doesn't have. He is a Beast! He has always been a beast on D, but now he has also developed a nice touch on O, and is still the Monster on the boards that he always was. Trust me, you will NEVER see Nate Robinson block D'wight, never. If anyone still says Yao is better than Dwight, they must be blind. Hate on it.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

Power_Ballin said:


> I have said since last year that Dwight is the Best Center in the league. It is obvious. Yao is good, but Dwight just has that presence on the boards, on D, and now on Off, that Yoa doesn't have. He is a Beast! He has always been a beast on D, but now he has also developed a nice touch on O, and is still the Monster on the boards that he always was. Trust me, you will NEVER see Nate Robinson block D'wight, never. If anyone still says Yao is better than Dwight, they must be blind. Hate on it.


Granted Howard has a bigger presence on the boards, but on D, its about even. Yao makes any player think twice about driving down the lane, and he's become a better shot blocker this year as well. What Dwight has in athleticism, Yao makes up for in size.

And on offense, its still Yao by far, though Dwight's closing the gap. Yao's a better passer, he commands double teams (Dwight's offensive game benefits with Shard and Hedo on the perimeter), and he's pretty much unstoppable once he's in the grove. And Yao and Dwight are on different spectrums when it comes to FT shooting 

It was like debating Amare v.s. Yao 2 years ago. People went with Amare because he was more athletic and what he did was more noticable, while Yao was consistently having strings of 20/10 games, but gets called out for his sluggishness due to his size. But ask any NBA player who has a bigger impact on games, and I'm sure that they will say Yao. I'm a fan of Dwight and he's a stud in this league, but undeniably he's still a notch below Yao right now.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Yao Mania said:


> Granted Howard has a bigger presence on the boards, but on D, its about even. Yao makes any player think twice about driving down the lane, and he's become a better shot blocker this year as well. What Dwight has in athleticism, Yao makes up for in size.
> 
> And on offense, its still Yao by far, though Dwight's closing the gap. Yao's a better passer, he commands double teams (Dwight's offensive game benefits with Shard and Hedo on the perimeter), and he's pretty much unstoppable once he's in the grove. And Yao and Dwight are on different spectrums when it comes to FT shooting
> 
> It was like debating Amare v.s. Yao 2 years ago. People went with Amare because he was more athletic and what he did was more noticable, while Yao was consistently having strings of 20/10 games, but gets called out for his sluggishness due to his size. But ask any NBA player who has a bigger impact on games, and I'm sure that they will say Yao. I'm a fan of Dwight and he's a stud in this league, but undeniably he's still a notch below Yao right now.


Respect your opinion ... but I don't think at this point you can say undeniably one way or the other. The question is arguable.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

How is it still Yao by far on the offensive end? Lets look at the stats:

Yao - 22 points a game, on 16 shots, 49% FG
Howard - 22.2 points a game, on 13 shots, 58% FG

Sorry Yao loses that battle as well. So now Howard is a much more efficient scorer (if Howard got 3 more shots a game, he would be putting up at least 25 to 26 points game easy and still be shooting at least 55% from the field), better defensively, better rebounder. Like I have said in the past, the only thing Yao has on Howard at this point in time is the fact he has a jump shot and can shoot the FT at better percentage. Besides that, Howard has him beat in everything else or is equal to him.

Oh and Howard has him beat in another stat as well. Age. 21 = Howard. 27 = Yao. Howard is better now and by next year, it will be a laughable debate.


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## Wayne (May 24, 2006)

Im glad Magic fans are jumping on this debate. Yao is clearly a better offensive player despite the fact that maybe now, Dwight is averaging the same ppg as Yao. Yao's pts haven't been as high right now due to TMac being out so he gets double/tripleteamed much more often. Dwight has Lewis right now to take some load off of him. Only way to settle this is when Orlando plays Houston.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Wayne said:


> Im glad Magic fans are jumping on this debate. Yao is clearly a better offensive player despite the fact that maybe now, Dwight is averaging the same ppg as Yao. Yao's pts haven't been as high right now due to TMac being out so *he gets double/tripleteamed much more often*. Dwight has Lewis right now to take some load off of him. Only way to settle this is when Orlando plays Houston.


:lol:

Another person who hasn't seen one Magic game this year. For reference go watch the Hornets game tonight. They doubled or tripled Howard almost every play and he still went 10-14 from the field and had 24 points.

Oh and playing one or two games won't solve anything. Hell Shaq had horrible games against Ben Wallace and the Pistons. Does that mean Ben Wallace is greater than Shaq? Yao or Howard could bomb in those games. Doesn't mean much in the end.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

I love them both,and if they are even in overall talent ill take the 7'5 freak of nature.


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## Chan Ho Nam (Jan 9, 2007)

Dwight is way more of a presence, he would destroy any frontcourt, double team and triple teams sometimes do not even stop Dwight

Anyone who watched the Boston-Orlando game on Sunday saw Dwight take it to Garnett with no problem whatsoever, even double teams and do not do much after Dwight gets the first step

Yao, is slow, tall but a great shooter, bad defender and banger sorry, anyone can posterize Yao no problem
Hes always on the high post doing turn arounds, rarely driving towards the rim cause obviously his movement is extremely slow, he was rendered useless by even Utah's frontcourt (boozer, okur) 

I cant see Dwight replacing Yao on the Rockets and not making it past first round playoffs


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

chairman5 said:


> Dwight is way more of a presence, he would destroy any frontcourt, double team and triple teams sometimes do not even stop Dwight
> 
> Anyone who watched the Boston-Orlando game on Sunday saw Dwight take it to Garnett with no problem whatsoever, even double teams and do not do much after Dwight gets the first step
> 
> ...


There are so many things wrong with that post, but its past my bedtime


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

chairman5 said:


> Dwight is way more of a presence, he would destroy any frontcourt, double team and triple teams sometimes do not even stop Dwight
> 
> Anyone who watched the Boston-Orlando game on Sunday saw Dwight take it to Garnett with no problem whatsoever, even double teams and do not do much after Dwight gets the first step
> 
> ...


1) Yao is not a bad defender, a lot of people underrated Yao's defense, yet he constantly shuts down, or gives players the caliber of Shaq, and Duncan the fits game in and game out. He hs a great interior defender, and a supurb post defender. I don't know where you are getting this.

2)Anyone can posterize any defensive big man. Its happened to Duncan, Shaq, Robinsion, Mutombo, Hakeem...etc. Thats what happens when you're in the post blocking shots. Some of the best shot blockers in NBA history are on some of the most famous posters ever. 

3) Yao wasn't exposed in any way. He had 2 of the best off the ball defenders in the game constantly doubling him up. When you had an offense that did not adjust (see JVG) it was a recipe for disaster. Some people say Boozer exposed Yao offensively in that series. He did because Boozer was simply too small, and too quick for Yao. It was a mismatch made in heaven for him.


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## Samael (Sep 1, 2005)

I would go for Yao simply because having a dominant center that shoots 84% from the line is an absolute luxury, opposing teams can't just hack their way back into the game.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Idunkonyou said:


> :lol:
> 
> Another person who hasn't seen one Magic game this year. For reference go watch the Hornets game tonight. They doubled or tripled Howard almost every play and he still went 10-14 from the field and had 24 points.
> 
> Oh and playing one or two games won't solve anything. Hell Shaq had horrible games against Ben Wallace and the Pistons. Does that mean Ben Wallace is greater than Shaq? Yao or Howard could bomb in those games. Doesn't mean much in the end.


What is so funny? During the Memphis game, they were doubling Yao all night. Even when he didn't even have the ball in his hands he was having double coverage, even triple on occasion. During the Spurs game, they had almost every player fronting Yao the entire game. I have seen every single Magic game but one, and Dwight has not nearly gotten the attention as Yao has this year. Its just in the previous games, Yao had Tmac to help spread the floor. But teams still doubled Yao with Tmac, as Scola, and Hayes at the time were not offensive threats. So that allowed teams to double him constantly without giving up too much risk. 

Now on about the rest of the topic itself... 

Tmac is out, and has been out the last 2 games. Of those two games, then entire defensive pressure of the opposing team has been raping Yao down low. Look at his first 9 games. They have all been MVP caliber numbers. I don't see how Dwight this year has "clearly" been the better center. 

Somebody also brought up that Dwight "Owned" or whatever KG during that Boston game. I don't see how 24 points, and 6 rebounds is "owning" anyone either? He had a good game, but I would hardly call that "owning"(or whatever it was called) 

Dwight’s numbers have not been THAT impressive over Yao's, if at all. If you exclude Yao's last 2 games, he wasn't better in any category except blocks +.4/per, and a clear advantage in rebounding. Over the last few years he has been one of the most efficient players in the league, and the most efficient at his position. All while additionally being the best passing center at his position (Outside of possibly Shaq)Come crunch time, Yao is an absolute luxury. Teams cant foul him, or he will most likely make his FT's, or you're going to let him shoot it down low. Pick your poison. it can completely change the dynamic of the games final minutes (see Bobcats, Spurs, & Bucks)

You also noted that Yao's FG% is lower than Dwight’s. You have to consider Yao isn't dominating in the low post anymore. His range has significantly increased into the 15-20 foot range. A lot of people forgot that the majority of Yao's shots now, are turnaround jumpers at mid to high range. He has been operating in the high post a lot now as a product of Adelman's system. 

Yao also averages more assists, and has a much higher FT% (At one point he made 38 straight)

Another point one guy brought up, was that Yao is "injury prone" and Dwight is not. Well, in Yao's first 3 years, he only missed 2 games. His so called "injury" the next year was an infection. How is getting sick, being injury prone? The one main injury Yao had during his career was when Tim Thomas fell on his knee, and cracked it. I never really know where all this Yao "injury prone" talk came from. 

I just don’t get it, Yao has two bad games so far, and people are already trying to move the torch to the next big thing. For now, in this early season, I will still take the most historically (last 3 years) efficient, finesse, and skilled big man in the league over the flavor of the month. Dwight is going to be good, maybe even great, but lets not get carried away here. Can he maintain these numbers all year? If so, I will gladly re-discuss this topic.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

I like them both and this is a hard question to answer, but I'd say this year Howard has just scraped it.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Tim Duncan is the best center in the league since he is mysteriously listed on the all-star ballot as a center. But I think you have to take Dwight over Yao at this point because Howard keeps showing improvement, is more versatile (can play in an uptempo or a slow down game) and Yao just isn't reliable because of his health. Howard is very durable for a man his size. Yao is more skilled and I would rather throw him the ball to get a bucket because of his touch and passing ability, but Dwight makes up it in other ways.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

If I was a GM and I had to pick right this minute? I'd pick Howard, just because hes proven to be made of steel and Yao has had some injury problems. If Yao stays healthy and I had to pick at the start of next year? Then it would be a lot harder to choose.


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

Idunkonyou said:


> How is it still Yao by far on the offensive end? Lets look at the stats:
> 
> Yao - 22 points a game, on 16 shots, 49% FG
> Howard - 22.2 points a game, on 13 shots, 58% FG


These are stats. Also remember how miserable Dwight was last playoffs against Detroit? His game is purely made of dunks and lay ups, although during that Macau game I watched he was hitting a lot of little jumphooks so that's promising.

Still Yao is better. Yao>Dwight on offense more then Dwight>Yao on defense.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

*Yao Frustrated With Play*



> November 20, 2007 - 2:47 am
> Houston Chronicle -
> 
> Rockets center Yao Ming met with coach Rick Adelman after Monday's practice and without sharing anything from their conversation, sounded frustrated with his play in the losses to the Suns and Spurs.
> ...


dwight is definately playing better at the moment, but by seasons end, i think yao will "get his game back" and be the MVP Yao we saw last season.

rite now, i think they're close but yao > dwight by the slightest margin.
if ur taking one to start a team, obviously dwight is younger/ironman'i'er so u'd take dwight.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Dwight Howard is the ******* son of A.C. Green and someone else who actually has basketball talent since Green sucked.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

OneBadLT123 said:


> What is so funny?


I was laughing because the person I was responding to, not you, was acting as if Yao is the only one between the two (Howard and Yao) that gets doubled or tripled teamed. He was acting as if Howard was getting his numbers against one on one play. It simply isn't true and he made him self look ignorant for saying that.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

giordun said:


> These are stats. Also remember how miserable Dwight was last playoffs against Detroit? *His game is purely made of dunks and lay ups*, although during that Macau game I watched he was hitting a lot of little jumphooks so that's promising.
> 
> Still Yao is better. Yao>Dwight on offense more then Dwight>Yao on defense.


Yet another person with an ignorant post who obviously hasn't seen Howard play this year. Get into the present or start a topic about past. I'm tired of you ignorant past dwellers entering threads about the here and now.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

JNice said:


> This year Dwight is scoring the same with higher efficiency. Out-rebounding Yao by a lot. Out shot-blocking Yao. And historically, out-healthying Yao.
> 
> Oh - He's also losing TS%, Efficiency rating, and PER. And wins.
> 
> Yao might be a marginally better overall player right now but if I had my choice going forward between the two it would definitely be Dwight. And there isn't a lot of precedence for guys Yao's size staying healthy the later they get into their careers.


*I Co-Sign.*


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## Block (Apr 22, 2007)

well one is asian and the other is not. 

I'm not racist but for what they were born into, one is clearly better than the other


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Yao's shooting touch and passing ability advantage over Dwight makes me think he is just the better center right now. But I just really love Dwights presence on the board, and the fact that he's efficiently and statistically leading the Magics to a 10-2 start shows that he does have an overall understanding of his position. I used to think of Dwight as a glorified David Lee, its hustle, alley oop, get out of the way im coming kinda tye of guy, Not like its a bad thing but this year he has shown more refinement in his skills.


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## roastedtoaster (Mar 16, 2004)

Yao. By mid season, Yao will be top 4-5 in MVP considerations, and people won't even remember this slow start. He's better right now playing bad basketball than Howard is playing at his best.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

It's clearly Yao. For people who are bringing up their respective numbers 10 games into the season -- you have got to be kidding. Yao is averaging 22 ppg on 49% from the field right now. But do you honestly believe that he has gotten that much worse since last season? It's 10 games. 2 without McGrady, in which he received an enormous amount of defensive attention. Before those games he was averaging 25/10/3 on 62% TS%. His PER was over 28, which is better than a prime Duncan's and Olajuwon's.

And all this is in a completely different offense. The fact that it's a new offense doesn't affect Yao's value as a player.

Yao is an infinitely superior passer too and he still draws more double teams. 

He is also a better defender. The difference in the Rockets' interior D when he is on the court compared to when he is off it is tremendous. His man defense, too, is excellent. He guards the Duncans, Shaqs, Currys and Amares as well as anyone in the league. Dwight is a very good defender, but Yao is still better.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

The answer is Howard. Enough with the denial, Howard is having a far better season. We have to judge based on what's happening on the court, not what we believe in our minds _should_ happen. Until Yao turns it around and/or Howard slows down, Howard's the answer.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Mateo said:


> The answer is Howard. Enough with the denial, Howard is having a far better season. We have to judge based on what's happening on the court, not what we believe in our minds _should_ happen. Until Yao turns it around and/or Howard slows down, Howard's the answer.


Thats just silly. We are going to discount everything yao has done up to this point and call him an inefficient scorer based off of ten games?


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

We're going to call him "not the league's top center" as of right now.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

^Thats weak. At least give it more than 10 games


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Mateo said:


> We're going to call him "not the league's top center" as of right now.


that just doesnt make sense though. even if dwight doesnt slow down and yao just starts playing at a level he has already proven he can play at, yao is the better player.
If we asked this question after the rockets had played 9 games instead of 11, yao would average 24 ppg and a FG% of nearly 53. Thats why with a player like yao when we have a large sample size of him paying well, it doesnt make sense to focus on a small sample size where 2 bad games somehow prove he is worse than dwight.


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## Block (Apr 22, 2007)

Way to make judgments on 10 games people. Some unintentionally hilarious stuff in this thread.


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

Yao

Unlike Dwight, you can dump the ball into him and work your offense from there. Dwight's game is mostly finishing dunks and oops. Yao on the other hand, is capable of laying moves on defenders and creating his own shot. Throw a double team at him and he actually knows what to do. 

And free throws are a big thing. With the number of free throws each of these guys take, Yao is money from the charity stripe while you can take advantage of Dwight's ****tiness at the line.


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

LamarButler said:


> Yao
> 
> Unlike Dwight, you can dump the ball into him and work your offense from there. Dwight's game is mostly finishing dunks and oops. Yao on the other hand, is capable of laying moves on defenders and creating his own shot. Throw a double team at him and he actually knows what to do.
> 
> And free throws are a big thing. With the number of free throws each of these guys take, Yao is money from the charity stripe while you can take advantage of Dwight's ****tiness at the line.


The Magic play Wednesday night at 8:30 since you haven't seen them yet this season.


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## Piolo_Pascual (Sep 13, 2006)

LamarButler said:


> Yao
> 
> Unlike Dwight, you can dump the ball into him and work your offense from there. Dwight's game is mostly finishing dunks and oops. Yao on the other hand, is capable of laying moves on defenders and creating his own shot. Throw a double team at him and he actually knows what to do.
> 
> And free throws are a big thing. With the number of free throws each of these guys take, Yao is money from the charity stripe while you can take advantage of Dwight's ****tiness at the line.


watch the game this year not highlights on youtube from last year.


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## ayukselbaba (Nov 21, 2007)

of course howard . he is a hard man


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Yao Ming, but it's close. Dwight is improving at a quicker rate than Yao, certainly, so I expect the gap to close by next year. Yao can be limited by players that are strong enough to root him out of his comfort zone, and doesn't board as well as Howard. Durability also goes to Howard, by a lot.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Hairy Midget said:


> LamarButler said:
> 
> 
> > Yao
> ...


howard having no post moves and only scoring off dunks/putbacks thing is wrong, as i've seen howard play 2 or 3 times this season (inc. the cleveland game in china).
but i like the argument that unlike dwight, u can dump the ball into yao and hav him create ur offense from there.
its not entirely true but yea, yao is much better for that.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

EHL said:


> Yao can be limited by players that are strong enough to root him out of his comfort zone


Like who, though? He usually fares well against the stronger players such as Dampier, Diop, Shaq, Ben Wallace, Duncan, JO, Magloire, and Dwight himself. The only particularly strong guy who has had some success defending him is Kwame Brown. That was evident last game against the Lakers. However Yao has had some huge games while guarded by Kwame too, though the Lakers do double him less than any other team in the league.

Yao is limited mostly by fronting (usually only done when McGrady is not there)and by defenders who are able to draw offensive fouls on him (e.g. Mehmet Okur).


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

A too-tall one way softie and a converted power forward who is still developing his drop step...has it come to this?


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## Affirmative Action (Aug 15, 2007)

Yao is more championship ready than Howard. If you wan to win now then you should obviously pick the better shooting and passing big man. Yao is more of a prototypical Center, in a sense where you cant isolate him in one part of the floor, because he has inside and outside scoring. He's in a mold of Ewing, Olajuwon and Robinson but with less prestige because he's not on par defensively with those guys.


Dwight still has a long way to go, I still want to see him improve his 15 footer and his FT% accuracy, but RIGHT NOW I would pick him over Yao because he's peaking at such an insane rate and seems to be a better investment with such a high celing surronding him.


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## Affirmative Action (Aug 15, 2007)

JPSeraph said:


> A too-tall one way softie and a converted power forward who is still developing his drop step...has it come to this?


Sadly Yes. The lack of quality big men in the league is alarming. And really Yao is the only true center (Duncan can be included if you wish to put him in that category) 


This is not a diss and shouldnt be taken one by Houston fans, but Yao Ming really reminded me of Rik Smits, just a bit better on the offensive end. I really miss those days where we have big men who can patrol the paint with authorithy.


I look at Dwight Howard and a spitting image of Alonzo Mourning when he was young easily comes back to mind.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

OneBadLT123 said:


> Another point one guy brought up, was that Yao is "injury prone" and Dwight is not. Well, in Yao's first 3 years, he only missed 2 games. His so called "injury" the next year was an infection. How is getting sick, being injury prone? The one main injury Yao had during his career was when Tim Thomas fell on his knee, and cracked it. I never really know where all this Yao "injury prone" talk came from.


It always amazed me that after one infection how quickly people jumped on him for being injury prone.


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## mysterio (May 20, 2003)

This is such an easy question. Yao. His offensive game is far more advanced than Dwight's. We're seeing a slight decline in Yao's numbers becuase he's in a stage where he's trying to further expand and perfect his repertoire of moves. Yao's got potential where, you give him the ball, and you know he's gonna score despite double teams. Dwight will never have that in his game.


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## mysterio (May 20, 2003)

ayukselbaba said:


> of course howard . he is a hard man


...how would you know? :uhoh:


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

mysterio said:


> This is such an easy question. Yao. His offensive game is far more advanced than Dwight's. We're seeing a slight decline in Yao's numbers becuase he's in a stage where he's trying to further expand and perfect his repertoire of moves. Yao's got potential where, you give him the ball, and you know he's gonna score despite double teams. Dwight will never have that in his game.


Yao's got more offensive moves than Dwight. But more moves doesn't equate to more points or greater effectiveness. 

It is pretty ignorant to say "never" regarding just about anything basketball with Dwight at this point. He is constantly improving ... like dropping 19pts and 12rebs on the Spurs tonight in the _first half_.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Right now, he is showing his offensive game...This is Yao's game here


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

I've got no problem with anyone who thinks Yao is better at this point. I only have a problem with anyone who says one over the other definitively.

Personally I think you can give the edge to Yao by a bit right now but Dwight is closing the gap quickly ... and I think an argument can be made for Dwight especially based on so far this season.


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## Avalanche (Nov 17, 2005)

Yao with 30/15 today, Dwight on course to do the same with 24/13 at the start of the 4th against the spurs


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## Hairy Midget (Nov 28, 2005)

Dwight with 34 points, 16 rebounds, and 3 blocks


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

LOL

YM 30 points/15 rebounds/6 blocks
DH 34 points/16 rebounds/3 blocks

So who had the better game??????????


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

I think that would classify as a stalemate.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

JNice said:


> I think that would classify as a stalemate.


I'd give it to Howard. He did play the Spurs after all, who are considered to be great defensively.


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

Idunkonyou said:


> I'd give it to Howard. He did play the Spurs after all, who are considered to be great defensively.


homer


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Feed_Dwight said:


> homer


Thank you. :worthy:


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Idunkonyou said:


> I'd give it to Howard. He did play the Spurs after all, who are considered to be great defensively.


yao did a better job defensively.
seriously, 125 points...


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## Cash (Nov 14, 2007)

Seems people all forget that D is in the east and yao is in the west, that make sense


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I take Chris Kaman. 17 points, 21 rebounds, 4 blocks tonight. Camby with 18 and 18 with 3 blocks himself.


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## Feed_Dwight (Oct 14, 2005)

Pimped Out said:


> yao did a better job defensively.
> seriously, 125 points...


That doesn't even begin to make any sense.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Feed_Dwight said:


> That doesn't even begin to make any sense.


other people were saying things that didnt make sense. i wanted to join in


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## Wayne (May 24, 2006)

After tonight's scores, I can't believe all of these Orlando fans are still riding on Dwight Howard. This is what we call a perfectly even night for both guys come on lmao. At least be fair to admit that both big guys showed up; at least for me, it's unclear who's better judging from just today's games. Both played good teams

Don't let your loyalty blind you :worthy:


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Pimped Out said:


> yao did a better job defensively.
> seriously, 125 points...


That makes no sense what so ever.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

Yao's going to get there. I think he's the best player in the NBA. But Dwight is having an insane year, making a leap I didn't expect. Through this far, I think Dwight is not only been better, but has been the league MVP.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Dwight

It is a myth that Yao is some kind of great passer or you can run offense through him. Houston stinks when he is without T Mac. He can be taken out simply by physical fronting because he tired easily.


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## Block (Apr 22, 2007)

MemphisX said:


> Dwight
> 
> It is a myth that Yao is some kind of great passer or you can run offense through him. Houston stinks when he is without T Mac. He can be taken out simply by physical fronting because he tired easily.


so which center doesn't fit this description. Howard wasn't too great without peremeter threats either


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> Dwight
> 
> It is a myth that Yao is some kind of great passer or you can run offense through him. Houston stinks when he is without T Mac. He can be taken out simply by physical fronting because he tired easily.


Where do you get such nonsense?


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## the rattler (Sep 15, 2006)

I went with Dwight Howard here... The guy is simply a beast and it's scary to think that this guy is only going to get even better..


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

OneBadLT123 said:


> Where do you get such nonsense?


*It's true, look how easily Utah took Yao out of that series last year.*


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

Prolific Scorer said:


> *It's true, look how easily Utah took Yao out of that series last year.*


How did they take him "out of the series"? He averaged 25/10 on 56% true shooting for crying out loud. The only thing the Jazz did to Yao was limit his ability to get into a rhythm shooting the ball by fouling the hell out of him. But he made up for it by living on the free throw line.


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

Yao was a defensive liability in that Jazz series. as easily as Yao scored. Jazz had an easier time scoring on the other end with Yao unable to guard Boozer. thus Yao was taken out. 

i mean its a tough matchup for Yao. he plays a traditional center role. he can obviously guard the bigger centers and dominant centers well. its not right to blame Yao purely on the Jazz series outcome because a team defense is supposed to help out each other. and the Rockets defense never adjusted to that matchup.


----------



## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

DuMa said:


> Yao was a defensive liability in that Jazz series. as easily as Yao scored. Jazz had an easier time scoring on the other end with Yao unable to guard Boozer. thus Yao was taken out.


That doesn't make sense, Boozer averaged 23/12 in that series. So if Yao and Boozer have a comparable series, why is it that Yao is the one who was "taken out the series"?

Is it not possible for 2 players on opposing teams to both play well?


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

Mateo said:


> That doesn't make sense, Boozer averaged 23/12 in that series. So if Yao and Boozer have a comparable series, why is it that Yao is the one who was "taken out the series"?
> 
> Is it not possible for 2 players on opposing teams to both play well?


playoff series isnt about who won the side of the averages. it was about possessions and matchups. jazz won ebcause they won the matchup with boozer vs yao in the deciding game 7.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

DuMa said:


> playoff series isnt about who won the side of the averages. it was about possessions and matchups. jazz won ebcause they won the matchup with boozer vs yao in the deciding game 7.


Utah also won the match up at the point and pretty much every other player match up except with tmac.
Yao and Boozer both had good series and its not fair to say one was really better than the other.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

I give up, you're right. The Rockets lost the series because 7'6" center Yao Ming was unable to lock-down 6'9" PF Carlos Boozer, and not because the Rockets set a record with only 4 players scoring in one game, or because McGrady folded in the 4th quarter of game 7 while Yao was the only person keeping them in the game. It was the one guy who played well's fault.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

MemphisX said:


> Houston stinks when he is without T Mac. He can be taken out simply by physical fronting because he tired easily.


No, he can be taken out by fronting because the way the Rockets are built they have no real scoring threats outside of Yao and McGrady. This means that when McGrady is not on the floor, the opposition can have a defender waiting to disrupt the lob pass to Yao.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Howard with 32 points, 17 boards, 3 steals and 4 blocks so far against the Bobcats and he is probably done for the rest of the night with about 7 minutes left. Best center in the league? I think so.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

^ Huge numbers. Though Yao did put up 34 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists and 3 blocks against the Bobcats, going 13-15 from the field and 8-8 from the line. Just FYI. 

This is fun, isn't it?


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Make that 34 points. Howard came back in for a few more minutes to end the quarter.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Hakeem said:


> ^ Huge numbers. Though Yao did put up 34 points, 8 rebounds, 4 assists and 3 blocks against the Bobcats, going 13-15 from the field and 8-8 from the line. Just FYI.
> 
> This is fun, isn't it?


Respectable numbers. Just not better than Howard's.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Shaq just beasted Yao tonight. That's a strike against Yao in my book. Unless Shaq only shows up to play the best? :whoknows:


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Flash is the Future said:


> Shaq just beasted Yao tonight. That's a strike against Yao in my book. Unless Shaq only shows up to play the best? :whoknows:


Shaq does show up to play the best...saturday night will be proof.


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

No idea why the Rockets dont feed Yao on the offensive end.

Deke was DPOY how many times?????????????????

Deke needs to teach Yao to play D.


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## Mateo (Sep 23, 2006)

Flash is the Future said:


> Shaq just beasted Yao tonight. That's a strike against Yao in my book. Unless Shaq only shows up to play the best? :whoknows:


Shaq's always taken the Yao rivalry seriously. It's a shame he doesn't play like this vs. the Bucks or the Bobcats or the Wizards, etc.

On the other hand, McGrady simply has to stop shooting. McGrady is not a good scorer. 20 shots to score 19 points is *very bad*. Move McGrady to the PG spot because he's a good playmaker, but Yao and Scola are both better scorers.


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## the rattler (Sep 15, 2006)

I believe that you that voted for Yao are all smoking something here...

The best year that Yao Ming had in the rebounding department was 735 rebounds in the 2003-2004 season when he grabbed 735 rebounds!!!

That was his best year!!

Now let's look at Dwight Howard...

2004-2005- 823 Rebounds

2005-2006- 1022 Rebounds

2006-2007- 1008 Rebounds

Dwight Howard has the potential to be one of the greatest Centers of all time....PERIOD!!!!

Yao Ming is the best player to come from China but Dwight Howard simply dwarfs Yao....

Let's keep this thread going....


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Now that Howard has improved his offensive game, I don't think it is really a debate any more. Howard has always been a better defender and rebounder. Now he is a good to great scorer. Once Howard starts making 70% of his FTs it really will be over. That alone is keeping him from averaging 26 to 28 points a game because he gets to the line so much. He starts making those and he will be unstoppable.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

_ highly doubt Howard ever starts to make 70% of his FTs. Generally, big men are either phenomenal FT shooters, and they maintain it, or they lose confidence over time. Alonzo Mourning and Tim Duncan both came into the league shooting 78%, and they're both around 60% now. Or, big men just lack a shooting touch, and they never get it. Howard shot 67.1% his rookie year, then 59.5%, followed by 58.6%, and he's now shooting 60.3%. That's not someone that's on track to improve their FT percentage IMO. But in his prime, Dwight will probably give us 26/14/3. But it won't be because of his FT percentage._


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Flash is the Future said:


> _ highly doubt Howard ever starts to make 70% of his FTs. Generally, big men are either phenomenal FT shooters, and they maintain it, or they lose confidence over time. Alonzo Mourning and Tim Duncan both came into the league shooting 78%, and they're both around 60% now. Or, big men just lack a shooting touch, and they never get it. Howard shot 67.1% his rookie year, then 59.5%, followed by 58.6%, and he's now shooting 60.3%. That's not someone that's on track to improve their FT percentage IMO. But in his prime, Dwight will probably give us 26/14/3. But it won't be because of his FT percentage._


_

You could be right, but Howard has a much improved FT form this year from last year, although some times that old form rears it's ugly head. He is just trying to get adjusted to it. He will improve IMO. He has already shown it in some games this year. He just needs to get consistent in that area._


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## HispanicCausinPanic (Jul 2, 2005)

Howard is a beast! I hope my man Oden ends up with a game more like his then Yao.


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## Skylaars (Apr 2, 2003)

im the biggest yao fan there is... but so far this season.. dwight howard is better, yao is still obviously a superstar... but dwight is just better.


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## roastedtoaster (Mar 16, 2004)

Idunkonyou said:


> Now that Howard has improved his offensive game, I don't think it is really a debate any more. Howard has always been a better defender and rebounder. Now he is a good to great scorer. Once Howard starts making 70% of his FTs it really will be over. That alone is keeping him from averaging 26 to 28 points a game because he gets to the line so much. He starts making those and he will be unstoppable.


I don't see how anyone can make the claim that Howard is a better Defender than Yao.

Yao has been a better individual defender over Howard, every year that Howard has been in the league. 

07-08
http://www.82games.com/0708/07HOU13C.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0708/07ORL13C.HTM
06-07
http://www.82games.com/0607/06HOU15C.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0607/06ORL15C.HTM
05-06
http://www.82games.com/0506/05HOU21C.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0506/05ORL14C.HTM
04-05
http://www.82games.com/04HOU22C.HTM
http://www.82games.com/04ORL14C.HTM

Yao is actually significantly better this year in comparison to Howard. Furthermore, from a team defense aspect, Yao has anchored a top 10 defense every year that he's been in the league (this year not included).


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

roastedtoaster said:


> I don't see how anyone can make the claim that Howard is a better Defender than Yao.
> 
> Yao has been a better individual defender over Howard, every year that Howard has been in the league.
> 
> ...


And who was his coach and why was his team so good defensively? Van Gundy, the master of defensive, but couldn't teach offense if his life depended on it. What is Yao doing this year under Alderman? Exactly. You're dismissed.

Those are meanless numbers by the way. Per 48 minutes? Another person going off of what ifs and maybes instead of what we see on the court.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

Idunkonyou said:


> And who was his coach and why was his team so good defensively? Van Gundy, the master of defensive, but couldn't teach offense if his life depended on it.


The Rockets went from being the 29th-best defensive side in the league the year before Yao was drafted, to the 14th-best in his rookie season. Coached by Rudy T both years. And Yao wasn't nearly as good a defender back then. The next year the Rockets were 5th. Year after that 4th. The year Yao missed 25 games, 8th. Last year 3rd. They were definitely helped by having a great defensive coach, but Yao's impact is undeniable.



> Those are meanless numbers by the way. Per 48 minutes? Another person going off of what ifs and maybes instead of what we see on the court.


You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, but anyway, they're playing virtually the same mpg this season so it's not a "what if" even by your twisted reasoning.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

Idunkonyou said:


> And who was his coach and why was his team so good defensively? Van Gundy, the master of defensive, but couldn't teach offense if his life depended on it. What is Yao doing this year under Alderman? Exactly. You're dismissed.
> 
> Those are meanless numbers by the way. Per 48 minutes? Another person going off of what ifs and maybes instead of what we see on the court.


"I don't know what those numbers mean so I'll call them meaningless." Ignorant. 

Statistics are not "what ifs" and "maybes." In fact, they are more objective than your own pre-conceived perceptions when watching the games.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Idunkonyou said:


> You could be right, but Howard has a much improved FT form this year from last year, although some times that old form rears it's ugly head. He is just trying to get adjusted to it. He will improve IMO. He has already shown it in some games this year. He just needs to get consistent in that area.


Amare began his career as a 66% FT shooter and shot 78% last season. You have to remember the age in which Dwight entered the league. He had a lot of raw potential and no polished aspect of his game. With the proper coaching, his potential can be realize and I believe that his ceiling is much higher than Yao's. Yao is already 28? 29? this is his peak. He's only going to get slower and for a big man, these aren't incredible numbers by Yao. He's 7'6 and can't get 10rpg?!? All he has to do is stand there and he'll get most of them on the defensive end! He's not athletic at all, he's just a genetic freak that was trained to play basketball by the Chinese army. Dwight is athletic and once he gets his shooting touch developed, he'll be like pre-surgery Amare only much better defensively.


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## Excel (Aug 5, 2002)

I voted for Dwight.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

82
82
82

you know what that is??? the amount of games he *didn't* miss the last three seasons...

dwight howard all day...and twice on sundays...

btw, remember all those threads claiming he would never be a 20 pt scorer??? hahahaha...


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## vcTmac24 (Nov 27, 2007)

Yao as of now. Dwight for the future


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## Movie Extra (Oct 30, 2007)

roastedtoaster said:


> I don't see how anyone can make the claim that Howard is a better Defender than Yao.
> 
> Yao has been a better individual defender over Howard, every year that Howard has been in the league.


How is Yao a superior defender? Your evidence doesn't really state him being any better. In fact, it brings a case that Dwight is at very least equal to Yao. Let's look at some numbers (brought to you by nba.com and basketball-reference.com):

Defensive rebound numbers (Not including 2007-08 season):
Yao career average: 6.5; Best season average: 7.6
Howard career average: 8.1; Best season average: 9.0

Blocks (Not including 2007-08 season):
Yao career average: 1.9; Best season average: 2.0
Howard career average: 1.7; Best season average: 1.9

Steals (Not including 2007-08 season):
Yao career average: 0.4; Best season average: 0.4
Howard career average: 0.9; Best season average: 0.9

Now looking at that, the only category Ming seems to have an advantage in is blocks. A stat that can be highly attributed to his height. Comparing his blocking numbers to past players of 7' 5", or taller, his stuffs don't really look too impressive:

Gheorghe Muresan (7' 7") career average: 1.5; Best season average: 2.3
Manute Bol (7' 6") career average: 3.3; Best season average: 5.0
Shawn Bradley (7' 5") career average: 2.5; Best season average: 4.0

It's also funny to think that Dwight is having a career year in two of those defensive categories (Defensive Rebounds- 11.0; Blocks- 2.6), while his steals are just about average (0.8).

Dwight is the superior defender. He is the future of the position, as he will keep getting better offensively, while Yao's production will begin to decrease. Last season, Ming secured the mantle as the best Center in the NBA. But this season Howard is tearing that accomplishment away from him, gaining an accolade he'll adopt for years to come.

The best center in the league right now: *Dwight Howard*.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

:laugh:

Yao gets knocked because of his height. Why does it matter?


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## Movie Extra (Oct 30, 2007)

I don't think his height should really make a difference in his skill level (except for his blocking ability, as I stated in my previous post). He is a very good scorer and I don't think his height has much to do with that. Others with his height have not put up offensive numbers as good as Yao, he's in his own league of scoring with nowadays centers. The only others to even compete against him on the scoring end are Amare and recently Dwight.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Movie Extra said:


> I don't think his height should really make a difference in his skill level (except for his blocking ability, as I stated in my previous post). He is a very good scorer and I don't think his height has much to do with that. Others with his height have not put up offensive numbers as good as Yao, he's in his own league of scoring with nowadays centers. The only others to even compete against him on the scoring end are Amare and recently Dwight.


The block comparison to bradley is dumb. bradley never intimidated anyone to stop them from coming to the lane. As much as people on this site love to use meaningless buzz words love to use words like "soft," yao is an intimidating defensive presence that guards dont like going to the lane against.


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## vcTmac24 (Nov 27, 2007)

When Scola is playing Center and Yao is on the bench. the opponent of the rockets would drive in constantly because Scola and Hayes or whoever the PF is, isn't intimidating. Yao is an extremely underrated defender In my opinion.


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## Movie Extra (Oct 30, 2007)

Yao "Soft"? **** No! Underrated defensively? To those that say he's "soft", yes. Better defender than Howard? No.


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## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand (Jun 20, 2006)

All the people that think Dwight is better than Yao, even as good as him are just like all the people who swore up and down Amare was better than Yao, T-Mac was better than Kobe, Garnett was better than Duncan.........


This sort of nonsense never ends. For some reason even die-hard NBA fans just cannot grasp that basketball is not all about stats and ESPN highlight reels and who your teammates are and blah blah blah.

Fact is just like all those other debates this will be a joke in a few years too. But hey these people really do believe the joke is saying Yao compares to Howard. Funny, but of course just like all the Amare will average 30/15 people and all the KG owns Duncan, etc. people they will go away then come back with new screen names.

Dwight Howard is obviously a very good player, but if you think he's comparable to Yao you are just like those that said such things of KG/Duncan and T-Mac/Kobe.


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## Movie Extra (Oct 30, 2007)

Rule_By_His_Own_Hand said:


> All the people that think Dwight is better than Yao, even as good as him are just like all the people who swore up and down Amare was better than Yao, T-Mac was better than Kobe, Garnett was better than Duncan.........
> 
> 
> This sort of nonsense never ends. For some reason even die-hard NBA fans just cannot grasp that basketball is not all about stats and ESPN highlight reels and who your teammates are and blah blah blah.
> ...


Believe me, I'm not going anywhere. I'm not afraid to be wrong, but in this case I don't think I am.

Plus, it's ridiculous to think that Yao is even in the same league as Duncan and Kobe. To use those comparisons is just crazy. Ming will not be in anyones mind in ten seasons, he's a good player, but definitely not worth remembering.

By the way, your comparisons of KG being better than Duncan, that is definitely true stat wise, but I've never heard anyone say Garnett is superior to Timmy in winning. So let's not go too far with this finger pointing. Also, there was a time that T-Mac was better than Kobe, but that time is long gone.

Howard is just starting his career, so it is crazy to think that what he's doing right now is a fluke and his rise is numbers will end. He has gotten better with each season and doesn't really show signs of slowing. Yao on the other hand has always been a top 5 center in the league, but let's not dub him as a player that is likely to be thought of as a hall of famer. Dwight is better than him right now, and will be in the future.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Rule_By_His_Own_Hand said:


> All the people that think Dwight is better than Yao, even as good as him are just like all the people who swore up and down Amare was better than Yao, T-Mac was better than Kobe, Garnett was better than Duncan.........
> 
> 
> This sort of nonsense never ends. For some reason even die-hard NBA fans just cannot grasp that basketball is not all about stats and ESPN highlight reels and who your teammates are and blah blah blah.
> ...


:lol:

61% FG, 23 points, 14 rebounds, 2 asssists, 3 blocks, 1 steal per game is just "good" in the NBA?


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

Face it guys, barring injuries, the best center in the League in five years will be Oden, if not sooner. Neither Dwight or Yao is an especially good defensive presence - they're just better than the usual stiffs most teams are forced to field. 

Oden actually has that Robinson, Ewing, Mourning type potential at the defensive end. Given his superior physical advantages, it won't be long before Greg, much like Dwight is able to put up good offensive numbers in spite of having a significantly less sophisticated offensive game than Yao.


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## Movie Extra (Oct 30, 2007)

JPSeraph said:


> Face it guys, barring injuries, the best center in the League in five years will be Oden, if not sooner. Neither Dwight or Yao is an especially good defensive presence - they're just better than the usual stiffs most teams are forced to field.
> 
> Oden actually has that Robinson, Ewing, Mourning type potential at the defensive end. Given his superior physical advantages, it won't be long before Greg, much like Dwight is able to put up good offensive numbers in spite of having a significantly less sophisticated offensive game than Yao.


Really? You think so? I mean, he hasn't played a second in an actual NBA game and you're ready to dub him the best future center. That's kinda strange to me. Now I'm not saying that he won't be a possible great, but to judge it as he will storm the NBA, after injuring before his rookie season, I can't see how you can say that. But whatever, you're entitled to your opinion. Just remember, Christian Laettner was one of the greatest college players ever, but look where his professional career took him. He was ok, but defintely not as impressive. (That's not a good comparison, I know, but I just wanted to throw out a great college player who didn't have much of an NBA career.)


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

JPSeraph said:


> Face it guys, barring injuries, the best center in the League in five years will be Oden, if not sooner. Neither Dwight or Yao is an especially good defensive presence - they're just better than the usual stiffs most teams are forced to field.
> 
> Oden actually has that Robinson, Ewing, Mourning type potential at the defensive end. Given his superior physical advantages, it won't be long before Greg, much like Dwight is able to put up good offensive numbers in spite of having a significantly less sophisticated offensive game than Yao.


The same guy who was getting 10 fouls a game in the summer leagues and didn't do jack on top of that agianst NBDL players? I don't think so.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

Movie Extra said:


> Really? You think so? I mean, he hasn't played a second in an actual NBA game and you're ready to dub him the best future center. That's kinda strange to me. Now I'm not saying that he won't be a possible great, but to judge it as he will storm the NBA, after injuring before his rookie season, I can't see how you can say that. But whatever, you're entitled to your opinion. Just remember, Christian Laettner was one of the greatest college players ever, but look where his professional career took him. He was ok, but defintely not as impressive. (That's not a good comparison, I know, but I just wanted to throw out a great college player who didn't have much of an NBA career.)


Yep. Injuries aside, Oden should be a perennial allstar. It's as much a function of how highly I am willing to rate Oden as how I don't believe Dwight or Yao are quite on par with the top centers of the 80's and 90's.



> The same guy who was getting 10 fouls a game in the summer leagues and didn't do jack on top of that agianst NBDL players? I don't think so.


Maybe we'll never know. I hope all three turn out to have long careers so we can properly judge. Oden has defensive instincts that neither Yao or Howard can claim. If his athleticism is a tad below Howards and well above Yao's, his size is nearly perfect for a center (although weight could be an issue in the future).

I'd say offensively, he should be no worse than Howard (Yao is the best) and defensively he should be something special. I wouldn't be worried about being foul prone early on. He's the new guy. I did say _five_ years. It's not uncommon for young players to get whistled more often early on in their careers.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

JPSeraph said:


> Face it guys, barring injuries, the best center in the League in five years will be Oden, if not sooner. Neither Dwight or Yao is an especially good defensive presence - they're just better than the usual stiffs most teams are forced to field.
> 
> Oden actually has that Robinson, Ewing, Mourning type potential at the defensive end. Given his superior physical advantages, it won't be long before Greg, much like Dwight is able to put up good offensive numbers in spite of having a significantly less sophisticated offensive game than Yao.



That is a pretty ridiculous assertion to state with such certainty. I think at worst Oden is going to be very good. But good lord, let him play at least 1 NBA game prior to crowning him best center in the league over a young guy that is just killing people right now.

Like the guy at the draft who had already proclaimed Oden as a Hall of Famer ... christ ...

IMO the news of Oden gaining 30lbs and *already *having knee surgery should leave some slightly skeptical of his bright future.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Howard with his best game scoring wise of his career tonight. 39 points on 12-17 shooting, 15-20 from the FT line, 16 rebounds and 5 blocks. Oh and the Magic won, again. 9-1 on the road, 14-3 overall.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

That is five 30pt games already this year for Dwight in 17 games. So much for all the people who said he couldn't score.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Right now Dwight is ...

2nd in rebounding
4th in blocks
2nd in FG%
1st in double-doubles
4/5 in PER

and after tonight he should be right around top 10 in scoring ...

I don't think there is any question as of right now he is the top C in the game.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

JNice said:


> That is five 30pt games already this year for Dwight in 17 games. So much for all the people who said he couldn't score.


Yep. He only leads all centers in the league in scoring, but he can't score. I hope people continue that theme all year and when Howard is averaging about 24 to 25 points for the season on 60+ percent shooting, I wonder if they will continue to say that?


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## Ghost (Jun 21, 2002)

Dwight and the gap gets bigger every year.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

JNice said:


> That is a pretty ridiculous assertion to state with such certainty. I think at worst Oden is going to be very good. But good lord, let him play at least 1 NBA game prior to crowning him best center in the league over a young guy that is just killing people right now.
> 
> Like the guy at the draft who had already proclaimed Oden as a Hall of Famer ... christ ...
> 
> IMO the news of Oden gaining 30lbs and *already *having knee surgery should leave some slightly skeptical of his bright future.


I did say "barring injuries", and yes, weight is always a potential factor. I don't see any reason why Oden wouldn't be able to develop into a 20ppg center as Dwight has and his defensive instincts are superior. I'll admit Yao has them both beat for his offensive game, but due to mismatches, he doesn't always get to employ that game, and again, his defense isn't always a plus for the Rockets.

Of course there is room for things to go differently, but I'd still give Oden the nod in _five years_ provided he is healthy (and not too fat).


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

Watch a Rockets game. The reason teams tend to shoot such low percentage against the Rockets is because with Yao in the centre nobody is willing to drive to the basket.

He is a strong defensive presence.
NOTE: I think Dwight has been the better player this year so far.
But the season is still young & Yao is getting used to Adelman's style. Lets not call this match after the first round is barely over.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

JPSeraph said:


> I did say "barring injuries", and yes, weight is always a potential factor. I don't see any reason why Oden wouldn't be able to develop into a 20ppg center as Dwight has and his defensive instincts are superior. I'll admit Yao has them both beat for his offensive game, but due to mismatches, he doesn't always get to employ that game, and again, his defense isn't always a plus for the Rockets.
> 
> Of course there is room for things to go differently, but I'd still give Oden the nod in _five years_ provided he is healthy (and not too fat).


I still don't see the argument. While it could happen, the moment Oden steps on the court he is going to be WAY behind Dwight. And in 5 years Dwight will be 26yrs old and should be right in his prime. That is not going to be an easy mountain for Oden to climb. And having the knee surgery so early ... that kind of puts some doubt into his future.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

hroz said:


> Watch a Rockets game. The reason teams tend to shoot such low percentage against the Rockets is because with Yao in the centre nobody is willing to drive to the basket.
> 
> He is a strong defensive presence.
> NOTE: I think Dwight has been the better player this year so far.
> But the season is still young & Yao is getting used to Adelman's style. Lets not call this match after the first round is barely over.


You act as if Howard has been in Stan's system for years. He has a new coach and new system as well. Any way, it really isn't an argument right now. Howard has outplayed every big man in the league thus far and is possibly the leading MVP candidate considering his teams record and his stats. Yes Lebron has had great stats, but his record isn't even close right now.


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## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand (Jun 20, 2006)

I really don't get people. Dwight is a tremendous player but that does not make him better than Yao or say if you argued Duncan was a center because in reality he is not in the league of those players. Again there is more than just stats. People are already comparing Dwight to Shaq which reminds me of a few years back Suns fans said Amare was the next Hakeem now they deny ever saying that but every board on the internet was flooded with that talk.

Look, fans seem to have an extremely short memory but Dwight Howard is not in the class of Duncan and Yao and eventually all this talk will magically disappear as well but not before ESPN can run their hype machine and proclaim Howard the next greatest ever, the real MDE, Yao a scrub etc.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Rule_By_His_Own_Hand said:


> I really don't get people. Dwight is a tremendous player but that does not make him better than Yao or say if you argued Duncan was a center because in reality he is not in the league of those players. Again there is more than just stats. People are already comparing Dwight to Shaq which reminds me of a few years back Suns fans said Amare was the next Hakeem now they deny ever saying that but every board on the internet was flooded with that talk.
> 
> Look, fans seem to have an extremely short memory but Dwight Howard is not in the class of Duncan and Yao and eventually all this talk will magically disappear as well but not before ESPN can run their hype machine and proclaim Howard the next greatest ever, the real MDE, Yao a scrub etc.


And Amare has had two knee surgerys. How many games has Howard missed in his career thus far? Oh yes. None.

Duncan? LOL!!!! :lol: His stats aren't even in the same league as Howard's this year. Oh sure. He has a better team around him, but if you asked any GM in the league who they would take at this point in their career, it would be Howard, 30 over 30 and I doubt Duncan would even argue that.

Any way, why is Duncan's name being brought up in this conversation? He is a PF and this is Yao vs. Howard, not Howard vs. the field and even if it was, Howard would still be leading. His stats and team record says it all. 24 points, 15 rebounds, 3 blocks, 2 assists, 1 steal, 61% FG, 9-1 on the road, 14-3 overall.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Rule_By_His_Own_Hand said:


> I really don't get people. Dwight is a tremendous player but that does not make him better than Yao or say if you argued Duncan was a center because in reality he is not in the league of those players. Again there is more than just stats. People are already comparing Dwight to Shaq which reminds me of a few years back Suns fans said Amare was the next Hakeem now they deny ever saying that but every board on the internet was flooded with that talk.


People compare him to Shaq, yes. Nobody is equating him to Shaq. Nobody.



> Look, fans seem to have an extremely short memory but Dwight Howard is not in the class of Duncan and Yao and eventually all this talk will magically disappear as well but not before ESPN can run their hype machine and proclaim Howard the next greatest ever, the real MDE, Yao a scrub etc.


If you are talking historically, no, Dwight is not in the class of Duncan or Yao. Of course, he is 21 yrs old. But as of right now there is not a big man in the league playing better through 17 games. And hardly a player at any position playing any better.

Again, I'm not sure where the assertion that all talk will magically disappear comes from. It isn't as if this is absolutely out of nowhere. Dwight has been steadily progressing each year since he came into the league. And at 21 yrs old it is pretty safe to assume he will continue to progress. I don't see any logical reason you would assume he is going to drop off ... barring injury of course.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Tim Duncan is the league's best center. But if forced to choose between Yao and Dwight, I don't even see it as a contest. Its Dwight all the way. This isn't to say that Yao isn't an excellent player, but Dwight has the kind of physical presence that no one else in the league has, and that only 2 or 3 guys in the league are ever likely to have at the same time. And the center spot is about physical domination. He's also looked like a completely different player this year in the bits and pieces of him that I've seen. He seems to be putting it all together in a way that he hadn't yet demonstrated even through this summer on the national team.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Rule_By_His_Own_Hand said:


> Fact is just like all those other debates this will be a joke in a few years too.


Given their progress in the past few years, I would say this is pretty absurd. Dwight has been closing the gap, and looks as though he has closed it completely and if in a few years this debate is a joke, I'm pretty sure it will be in Dwight's favor. His improvement curve has been much steeper.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Tim Duncan was the league's best PF. But if forced to choose between Yao and Dwight, I don't even see it as a contest. Its Dwight all the way. This isn't to say that Yao isn't an excellent player, but Dwight has the kind of physical presence that no one else in the league has, and that only 2 or 3 guys in the league are ever likely to have at the same time. And the center spot is about physical domination. He's also looked like a completely different player this year in the bits and pieces of him that I've seen. He seems to be putting it all together in a way that he hadn't yet demonstrated even through this summer on the national team.



Fixed it for you. 

1st team all NBA will see Howard at the center spot this year and probably for many more years to come baring injury.


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## Movie Extra (Oct 30, 2007)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Given their progress in the past few years, I would say this is pretty absurd. Dwight has been closing the gap, and looks as though he has closed it completely and if in a few years this debate is a joke, I'm pretty sure it will be in Dwight's favor. His improvement curve has been much steeper.


Well said. Many people don't seem to be looking at his steady progression. I don't get what they are talking about, stat wise, saying he'll drop off soon or that he isn't in the league of the other big men. This question is who is the best center right now and right now that designation would go to the possibly current MVP Dwight Howard.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Idunkonyou said:


> Fixed it for you.


Was? If Duncan has the lost the title of best big man, it's only until April, May and June. That seems to be the yearly routine.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Was? If Duncan has the lost the title of best big man, it's only until April, May and June. That seems to be the yearly routine.


I remember a guy named Parker winning the MVP of the last finals and who is currently the MVP of his team leading them in points and assists per game.

Any way, Duncan has fallen some what this year. Doesn't mean he sucks. He will probably make an all pro team, but it won't be 1st team that is for sure. Too many other players having much better seasons for him to be there, especially at the forward spots which is what he is considered to be for his entire career.

Howard currently is having the best season out of any big man. Coming into his own this year. It was 3 years in the making.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Idunkonyou said:


> I remember a guy named Parker winning the MVP of the last finals and who is currently the MVP of his team leading them in points and assists per game.


Duncan was easily the MVP of the series against the only team that posed a threat to the Spurs. Parker won MVP of the cupcake series. Even then, he really wasn't, he was just eating off of Duncan's plate.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Duncan was easily the MVP of the series against the only team that posed a threat to the Spurs. Parker won MVP of the cupcake series. Even then, he really wasn't, he was just eating off of Duncan's plate.


Your post would have legs if Tony was playing poorly this year, but clearly he is not. Leads his team in scoring and assists. Best player on the Spurs so far this year, while Duncan is taking a backseat and his stats prove it, which normally tends to happens as players age. Samething happened with the Heat, with Shaq taking a backseat to Wade.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Idunkonyou said:


> Your post would have legs if Tony was playing poorly this year, but clearly he is not. Leads his team in scoring and assists. Best player on the Spurs so far this year, while Duncan is taking a backseat and his stats prove it, which normally tends to happens as players age. Samething happened with the Heat, with Shaq taking a backseat to Wade.


Duncan is taking a backseat to Parker and Manu right now like he has done in each of the past couple seasons in the regular season. It's called coasting. Then he turns it up in the playoffs and carries his team when it counts. Ask Phoenix fans. Even ask Dallas fans who witnessed him completely dominate them though it was in a losing effort. Yeah, in the regular season of both of those seasons, Duncan coasted like he is doing right now. Until his playoff performance suffers, you kind of have to keep the title of big man in the game reserved for him. When it matters, he has been the best.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

So now Howard is better then Duncan?

Oh the homerism!


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

OneBadLT123 said:


> So now Howard is better then Duncan?
> 
> Oh the homerism!


He has been *this year* and any one who says other wise is being a homer.

He has been better than Yao as well. Stats, team record, everything proves that.


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

Yao had a huge game today but Howard had an even huger one. Wow damn.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

If Duncan is considered a center in this argument, then he is obviously the best in the league. Since the Spurs are so consistently good, they don't need to play TD 40 minutes a night to win 75% of their games in the regular season. The past three post seasons, Duncan has averaged 25/12 (per 40), including over 30ppg in the 2006 elimination at the hands of the Mavericks (ie. a series in which they needed everything he could give them).

Howard isn't close because his game is too raw and predicated almost solely on his immense talent. He doesn't have anywhere near the skillset, experience, or two way dominance that Duncan possesses. 

Duncan is a legit 20/10 hall of fame big man. Howard is on his way; let's not make premature arguments...

I believe the original post was about Yao vs Howard in which I prefer Howard (and have since his rookie season) due to his superior physicality, willingness to work hard and improve his game, and his more advantageous size. When the matchups are right, Yao is unstoppable; when they're not, Yao is a liability to his team. That rarely occurs with a HOF 7 footer, even with today's artificially juiced up perimeter game.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Idunkonyou said:


> Fixed it for you.
> 
> 1st team all NBA will see Howard at the center spot this year and probably for many more years to come baring injury.


Well, thanks a whole bunch for that.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

JPSeraph said:


> If Duncan is considered a center in this argument, then he is obviously the best in the league. Since the Spurs are so consistently good, they don't need to play TD 40 minutes a night to win 75% of their games in the regular season. The past three post seasons, Duncan has averaged 25/12 (per 40), including over 30ppg in the 2006 elimination at the hands of the Mavericks (ie. a series in which they needed everything he could give them).
> 
> Howard isn't close because his game is too raw and predicated almost solely on his immense talent. He doesn't have anywhere near the skillset, experience, or two way dominance that Duncan possesses.
> 
> ...


If you are going bassed off an entire career, then sure. Duncan is better than Howard. If you are going based off of this year, which we are, then no he isn't.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Idunkonyou said:


> If you are going bassed off an entire career, then sure. Duncan is better than Howard. If you are going based off of this year, which we are, then no he isn't.


Why should we take your word on this? After 17 early season games, no less. Shouldn't Dwight have to demonstrate not just through an entire season, but much more importantly, in the playoffs, that he is capable of having the type of impact towards winning that Duncan has had year in and year out on the way to 4 NBA Championships before we coronate the kid?


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## Movie Extra (Oct 30, 2007)

SeaNet said:


> Why should we take your word on this? After 17 early season games, no less. Shouldn't Dwight have to demonstrate not just through an entire season, but much more importantly, in the playoffs, that he is capable of having the type of impact towards winning that Duncan has had year in and year out on the way to 4 NBA Championships before we coronate the kid?


First of all, can we get this whole Duncan thing out of our mind. He is not a center, though he is in height and many would probably play and put him there he has always been listed as a PF. He is a forward and that's all there is to it. The question doesn't even involve him because of this, that's why it's between Dwight and Yao.

Second, like the guy said before you, Dwight has been the best center *this season*. But instead of acknowledging what he said you're just bringing up the point again that Duncan is better because of his previous accomplishments. 

Let's stop this talk. The question is between centers and what they have done so far this year. So can we get off the subject of Duncan? Please.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Movie Extra said:


> First of all, can we get this whole Duncan thing out of our mind. He is not a center, though he is in height and many would probably play and put him there he has always been listed as a PF. He is a forward and that's all there is to it. The question doesn't even involve him because of this, that's why it's between Dwight and Yao.
> 
> Second, like the guy said before you, Dwight has been the best center *this season*. But instead of acknowledging what he said you're just bringing up the point again that Duncan is better because of his previous accomplishments.
> 
> Let's stop this talk. The question is between centers and what they have done so far this year. So can we get off the subject of Duncan? Please.


I don't care what Duncan is listed as, the man plays center. And the question, as I read it, was who is the best center in the league, not who has made the most dramatic impression in the first 17 games in the season. You don't take over number one from Duncan based on 17 games of early season quality play. Sorry.


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## Movie Extra (Oct 30, 2007)

SeaNet said:


> I don't care what Duncan is listed as, the man plays center. And the question, as I read it, was who is the best center in the league, not who has made the most dramatic impression in the first 17 games in the season. You don't take over number one from Duncan based on 17 games of early season quality play. Sorry.


I can see your point, all I'm saying is that so far this season Howard has put up amazing stats and has lead his team better than Timmy. Tim, if considered a center, has been the best since Shaq's arrival in Miami (though he kind of took a back seat to Yao last season). I know, along with everyone else, that Duncan will step it up in the playoffs. But right now, at this very moment, I'd take Howard for the rest of the year, and Duncan when it counts.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

Movie Extra said:


> First of all, can we get this whole Duncan thing out of our mind. He is not a center, though he is in height and many would probably play and put him there he has always been listed as a PF. He is a forward and that's all there is to it. The question doesn't even involve him because of this, that's why it's between Dwight and Yao.
> 
> Second, like the guy said before you, Dwight has been the best center *this season*. But instead of acknowledging what he said you're just bringing up the point again that Duncan is better because of his previous accomplishments.
> 
> Let's stop this talk. The question is between centers and what they have done so far this year. So can we get off the subject of Duncan? Please.


He's listed as a forward-center, the same as Dwight.


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## Movie Extra (Oct 30, 2007)

bronx43 said:


> He's listed as a forward-center, the same as Dwight.


You are right. I was wrong. I just assumed, you know what they say about that. Not to nitpick, but, Duncan is listed as a Forward-Center and Howard is listed as a Center-Forward (on nba.com). Meaning Timmy's primary position is forward (but he also plays center), while Dwight is a center (but also plays forward). Also, in fantasy leagues Howard is only listed as a center and Duncan is listed as both a forward and center. And even more, on every video game I've ever played, Tim is listed as a forward. Like I said before, I was wrong, but I still consider Duncan more of a power forward and that's probably what he'll be remembered as. Thus I don't think he should be in debate for best centers, but definitely in best big men.


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## AZNoob (Jan 21, 2006)

Yao, to me, plays a true center position.

Why did the NBA even come up with "Forward-Center" or "Center-Forward?"

In the past, with people being listed as 6'10, or 6'11, were they counted as centers? No. They were POWER FORWARDS!

Whst is up with the hybrid combos? We shouldn't even have a debate over this. Dwight should be a PF instead.

This topic should be closed. It's a stupid comparison. I don't see Dwight making turn-around, fadeaway 16-ft jumpers like Yao. But I also don't see Yao bullying his way into the fray, and getting highlight jams. 

It would seem their roles are reversed. Why not count Yao as a Forward-Center? 

Best POWER FORWARD in the league right now, hands down = D. "Beast" Howard.
Best CENTER in the league right now, hands down = The Great Wall.


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## AZNoob (Jan 21, 2006)

Idunkonyou said:


> Yet another person with an ignorant post who obviously hasn't seen Howard play this year. Get into the present or start a topic about past. I'm tired of you ignorant past dwellers entering threads about the here and now.


Are you stupid? 

You are a magic fan, and even YOU don't see the truth.

I know DHow dominated the Sonics a few nights back, but he went 12-17 from the field.

Awesome right?

9 of those 12 were DUNKS.

Before you quote me, and then go off on a tangent saying how he commands the paint better than Yao, Howard just bullies. He may show streaks of a shooting touch, but Yao has a much better shot than he does.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

AZNoob said:


> In the past, with people being listed as 6'10, or 6'11, were they counted as centers? No. They were POWER FORWARDS!


Are you telling me Zo is a PF? What about Ewing. He was more 6'11 than 7 feet. 

Howard is a center.

As for top center. Hard to say. It's close but I got to go with Howard for tomorrow though.


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## Movie Extra (Oct 30, 2007)

AZNoob said:


> Before you quote me, and then go off on a tangent saying how he commands the paint better than Yao, Howard just bullies. He may show streaks of a shooting touch, but Yao has a much better shot than he does.


Yes, Howard does bully, but so did Shaq when he got into the NBA. Now I'm not saying Dwight is the new O'Neal, it would be unfair to compare anyone to the Diesel. I'm just pointing out that they were/are both physically imposing centers who know how to push people around. That's their game, Yao doesn't have that so he needs that shooting touch. (Also, I'm not trying to down Ming by saying that, he's very good.)


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

Idunkonyou said:


> If you are going bassed off an entire career, then sure. Duncan is better than Howard. If you are going based off of this year, which we are, then no he isn't.


Which is precisely why I pointed out Duncan's excellent playoff production; the Spurs don't need Timmy going full out for 82 games.

Howard is doing great, but he is still a turnover machine and his defense - terrific rebounding aside - is somewhat overstated. His offense for the past 2 or 3 weeks has been surprisingly good. In a seven game playoff series, the opposing team will have ample opportunity to disrupt D-Ho's game.

As for Yao, I've pretty much already stated my opinion of how his terrific offensive game gets lost in unfavorable matchup situations with greater frequency than a top rated 7-footer.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

AZNoob said:


> Yao, to me, plays a true center position.
> 
> Why did the NBA even come up with "Forward-Center" or "Center-Forward?"
> 
> ...


These arguments are irritating because there is just so much BS thrown around on all sides.

This one is all over the board.

Dwight is a center. Period. He's pretty much been playing center since the 2nd half of his rookie year. Let's see ... he guards centers. Centers guard him. Well, bygolly, I think that makes him a center.

And I always love the "yeah well he can't do the triple-spin upside down fadeaway" ... well, that is fantastic. But how you score the points doesn't matter nearly as much as scoring them and doing it consistently. As long as Dwight is producing it doesn't matter. I could care less if he dunks his way to 30ppg. I guarantee Dwight can dunk at a higher percentage than Yao can shoot fadeaway 18 footers.

And no, Dwight really isn't just bulling over people. The days of Shaq being able to back people down and train through them are over. Maybe you haven't noticed all the flopping going on in the last 4-5 years? He's not trucking through people ... more like jumping over and around people.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

AZNoob said:


> Are you stupid?
> 
> You are a magic fan, and even YOU don't see the truth.
> 
> ...


He bullies like Shaq used to bully when he was young. Currently Howard has more dunks than 25 NBA teams. That is domination. He also made 15-20 FTs, had 16 rebounds and 5 blocks to go with his 9 dunks. *DOMINATION!*

I'm sorry you haven't got to witness it yet. In due time.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

JNice said:


> These arguments are irritating because there is just so much BS thrown around on all sides.
> 
> This one is all over the board.
> 
> ...


Nothing else needs to be said because JNice killed this thread.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

JPSeraph said:


> Which is precisely why I pointed out Duncan's excellent playoff production; the Spurs don't need Timmy going full out for 82 games.
> 
> Howard is doing great, but he is still a turnover machine and his defense - terrific rebounding aside - is somewhat overstated. His offense for the past 2 or 3 weeks has been surprisingly good. In a seven game playoff series, the opposing team will have ample opportunity to disrupt D-Ho's game.
> 
> As for Yao, I've pretty much already stated my opinion of how his terrific offensive game gets lost in unfavorable matchup situations with greater frequency than a top rated 7-footer.


Doubtful, especially this year. Howard's game has gone to another level. You see, when people put you in MVP talks, that is kind of the obvious. He was getting quadruple teamed by the Sonics and still had 39 points.


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## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

JNice said:


> These arguments are irritating because there is just so much BS thrown around on all sides.
> 
> This one is all over the board.
> 
> ...


This post is freaking awesome. Its so right in so many levels. Hahaha. Very nice.


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

Idunkonyou said:


> Doubtful, especially this year. Howard's game has gone to another level. You see, when people put you in MVP talks, that is kind of the obvious. He was getting quadruple teamed by the Sonics and still had 39 points.


By the Sonics? Oh no!

I think you otherwise missed the point...

*It's Early Days!*


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

JPSeraph said:


> By the Sonics? Oh no!
> 
> I think you otherwise missed the point...
> 
> *It's Early Days!*


Sure, but Howard hasn't had a start like this since he has been in the NBA and for you to sit there and actually say "it is early" is even more pathetic. This is his coming out party. He is 21 years old and most had forseen a year like this for Howard when he was drafted. Baring injury, he will only get better my friend.

Oh and Howard dropped 33/18 on the Suns and 34/17 on the Spurs, but let me guess. THE SPURS AND SUNS? Oh no!


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## JPSeraph (Dec 17, 2005)

Idunkonyou said:


> Sure, but Howard hasn't had a start like this since he has been in the NBA and for you to sit there and actually say "it is early" is even more pathetic. This is his coming out party. He is 21 years old and most had forseen a year like this for Howard when he was drafted. Baring injury, he will only get better my friend.
> 
> Oh and Howard dropped 33/18 on the Suns and 34/17 on the Spurs, but let me guess. THE SPURS AND SUNS? Oh no!


I understand you are a fan of Howard. As a matter of fact, I am too.

But if Duncan is included in an argument for the league's best centers, then it's premature to say Howard is #1 based off of the first month of regular season play. In fact, we're doing Yao a disservice as well.

As others have pointed out, Dwight is quickly claiming that spot for himself. I'm sure he will continue to improve, but given that no center in NBA history could be expected to put up 34/18 _at the league's current pace_, it's safe to say that his numbers will come back to earth over the course of the season.

As I said before, the real test will come later in the season when playoff contenders and playoff hopefuls are vying for position and when the long season's grind has taken it's toll. 

I think most opponents are still surprised when they find out first hand how much of a handful the new Magic are this season. That won't last indefinitely.

So, no, it isn't "pathetic" to remind you that's it's early in the season, because *it is*.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

I always find it entertaining when people dis a guy about the fact that he gets most of his points on dunks. I mean, isn't that the goal? Get the best shot you can on every posession? That's what's so impressive about Dwight. He's having a monster impact night in and night out on pure physical domination. That's his game. And its damn impressive. Yes, his skill set is growing, but really his game is about using his body. I think that gives him an advantage over Yao who, while very impressive, I think can be more easily contained by a good defensive team.

Again, I take Duncan w/ his brain over both of them.


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## arhie (Jul 4, 2006)

Seanet hows the 24 ann 15 looking like now?? LOL. He might even do better than I thought. Shaq-lite is here in the flesh.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Against arguably the 2 best teams in the league this year Howard is averging 32 points and 19 rebounds a game shooting 65% from the field. Dominating is a nice word to use for him. Too bad some of his other teammates fold in those games, otherwise he may have won a few of them.


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## edyzbasketball (Nov 16, 2005)

When Dwight doesn't have the games when he doesnt have a McGrady to help him (in this case Shard and Hedo), and he is always double or triple teamed, then we will talk. Magic momentarily has a Shard and a Hedo who can drop that 3.

No comment to make about now. But let's see when 1 or 2 of the scoring threats in his team are gone. Then we shall see the true value of Mr. Howard.


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## Block (Apr 22, 2007)

When Dwight averages this for 2 or 3 seasons in a row, come back and make the same thread, it might be worth something


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> I think that gives him an advantage over Yao who, while very impressive, I think can be more easily contained by a good defensive team.


It's not really good defensive teams that are able to contain him. It's teams that defend him in a certain way.
e.g. the Spurs, Pistons, Mavs and Pacers have been good/great defensive teams over the past few years, however Yao has tended to score heavily against them. This is because of their standard approach to defending him -- a genuine big man behind him and help sent after he catches the ball. 

Sides like the Suns and Hornets have been ordinary defensively, yet they have contained him, mainly through fronting and extremely aggressive doubling.

Adelman is using Yao all wrong. This is a player who has averaged a highly efficient 27 ppg for the past two years when healthy. It's only about a 60-game sample, but it's enough for anyone to know that he should be the first option on pretty much any team in the league. But right now the Rockets are primarily going through McGrady, a great volume scorer, but a relatively inefficient one. 

I mean, in the weeks just before he broke his leg last season, Yao was ripping defenses to shreds. I think in the fortnight just before he went down, he averaged something like 34/11/4, then capped it off with a McGrady-less whupping of the Spurs in SA. Then from the end of March and through April with T-Mac there he averaged 31 ppg. It's just a matter of being healthy and in a consistent, suitable offense. 

And as much as people like to label him a finesse player, Yao scored almost all his points the last two seasons from down low. Might not have been many dunks there, but there were a lot of jump hooks, Duncan-like face-up jumpers and Olajuwon-like turnarounds. And 9 trips a night to the line. It just doesn't make sense to have a guy who is that lethal and draws so much attention down low, but decide to use him as a second option and have him play 18 feet out. Certainly not when he's too big to have a face-up game that features anything more than a jumper.

Unless Adelman changes his approach very soon, I'd much rather have Van Gundy.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

edyzbasketball said:


> When Dwight doesn't have the games when he doesnt have a McGrady to help him (in this case Shard and Hedo), and he is always double or triple teamed, then we will talk. Magic momentarily has a Shard and a Hedo who can drop that 3.
> 
> No comment to make about now. But let's see when 1 or 2 of the scoring threats in his team are gone. Then we shall see the true value of Mr. Howard.


Couldn't really understand that first sentence ... but Dwight has been getting consistently double and triple teamed for a couple years now. Difference is last year most of the time Dwight just passed out of double-teams (or turned it over) ... this year Dwight is killing the double teams too. 

I'm not sure why you are trying to discount what he has done based on his teammates. Orlando has a good team but it isn't great. Hedo and Lewis are both good but not even All-Star caliber players and one of the two is playing out of position nightly.

Sounds like you are just making excuses for Yao which he doesn't need.



Block said:


> When Dwight averages this for 2 or 3 seasons in a row, come back and make the same thread, it might be worth something


I think it is worth something now. Why must we wait 2 or 3 seasons? Can we not discuss what is going on right now? Right now Dwight's numbers are pretty much better than any single season Yao has had. As of right now, Dwight is the better player. He is as good or better than Yao in pretty much every facet of the game outside of probably passing the ball ... which is coming along. And at only 21 yrs old...

Of course by saying that I automatically become a Yao hater ... even though I love Yao.

By next season .. barring any sort of major injuries to Dwight, I don't think this poll will be even close.


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

Dwight Howard is closing the gap. Yikes.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

giordun said:


> Dwight Howard is closing the gap. Yikes.


With exception of having done it for an extended period of time, gap is closed.


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## Rule_By_His_Own_Hand (Jun 20, 2006)

I find this thread a joke. ANYONE and I mean ANYONE that thinks Howard is as good as Yao is no basketball knowledgeable fan IMHO.


Look you give Howard Chuck Hayes as his PF, Battier as his SF, and a point guard like Rafer Alston that in reality is not even good enough to get a contract from a top 8 Euroleague team and then put him in the Western Conf, and then face the same D Yao does and if you think he can be even close to what Yao is you are smoking something.

Do people even realize that Yao and T-Mac have a starting lineup that plays 2 on 5 EVERY game and in the Western Conf.? This thread is absolutely ridiculous.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Rule_By_His_Own_Hand said:


> I find this thread a joke. ANYONE and I mean ANYONE that thinks Howard is as good as Yao is no basketball knowledgeable fan IMHO.
> 
> 
> Look you give Howard Chuck Hayes as his PF, Battier as his SF, and a point guard like Rafer Alston that in reality is not even good enough to get a contract from a top 8 Euroleague team and then put him in the Western Conf, and then face the same D Yao does and if you think he can be even close to what Yao is you are smoking something.
> ...


I think the irony of the last part of that first statement just reached out and slapped me across the face.

I'm not sure there is a single valid point in there.


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## Movie Extra (Oct 30, 2007)

Rule_By_His_Own_Hand said:


> I find this thread a joke. ANYONE and I mean ANYONE that thinks Howard is as good as Yao is no basketball knowledgeable fan IMHO.
> 
> 
> Look you give Howard Chuck Hayes as his PF, Battier as his SF, and a point guard like Rafer Alston that in reality is not even good enough to get a contract from a top 8 Euroleague team and then put him in the Western Conf, and *then face the same D Yao does and if you think he can be even close to what Yao is you are smoking something.*
> ...


Are you trying to say that Dwight couldn't compete with western defense? Cause if so, you must be the one who's smoking something, or much more likely, not paying attention to this season. So far Howard's averages against western opponents are: 26.6 PPG, 16.4 RPG, 2.4 BPG, with a .614 FG%. You can't presume to tell me that his team, which is less talented than Yao's, is helping him that much, especially when he's being double and triple teamed. Maybe you should do a little research before thinking you are infalable and what ever you say is the truth.

Also, saying that Yao and T-Mac, with there starting lineup, is like playing 2 on 5 is bull. In your reasoning than every game they have would be going against only the other teams superstars. What I'm saying is in you reasoning they would be having a 2 on 2 or 2 on 1 game every night, except when they are facing the Spurs or Suns, in that instance it would be a 2 on 3 game.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

edyzbasketball said:


> When Dwight doesn't have the games when he doesnt have a McGrady to help him (in this case Shard and Hedo), and he is always double or triple teamed, then we will talk. Magic momentarily has a Shard and a Hedo who can drop that 3.
> 
> No comment to make about now. But let's see when 1 or 2 of the scoring threats in his team are gone. Then we shall see the true value of Mr. Howard.


This post is nominated for Most Ignorant Comment of the Year Award.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Hakeem said:


> It's not really good defensive teams that are able to contain him. It's teams that defend him in a certain way.
> e.g. *the Spurs*, Pistons, Mavs and Pacers have been good/great defensive teams over the past few years, however Yao has tended to score heavily against them. This is because of their standard approach to defending him -- a genuine big man behind him and help sent after he catches the ball.
> 
> Sides like the Suns and Hornets have been ordinary defensively, yet they have contained him, mainly through fronting and extremely aggressive doubling.
> ...


Howard dropped 34/16 via 14-19 shooting on Duncan and the Spurs head so you may want to take them out of the equation.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

JNice said:


> With exception of having done it for an extended period of time, gap is closed.


If any thing Yao needs to start closing the gap on Howard, which of course won't happen. Maybe Oden can challenge the beast?


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Rule_By_His_Own_Hand said:


> I find this thread a joke. ANYONE and I mean ANYONE that thinks Howard is as good as Yao is no basketball knowledgeable fan IMHO.
> 
> 
> Look you give Howard Chuck Hayes as his PF, Battier as his SF, and a point guard like Rafer Alston that in reality is not even good enough to get a contract from a top 8 Euroleague team and then put him in the Western Conf, and then face the same D Yao does and if you think he can be even close to what Yao is you are smoking something.
> ...


:lol:


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Idunkonyou said:


> Howard dropped 34/16 via 14-19 shooting on Duncan and the Spurs head so you may want to take them out of the equation.


i think u need to re-read the post. he said its NOT good defensive teams (eg. spurs) that can will be able to contain him, but teams that learn to defend him in a certain way.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

NewAgeBaller said:


> i think u need to re-read the post. he said its NOT good defensive teams (eg. spurs) that can will be able to contain him, but teams that learn to defend him in a certain way.


Regardless, his post was hogwash any way. Howard has pretty much owned every team he has played against this year besides the Blazers, which he was in foul trouble most of the game so that is why he didn't get his numbers. The only formula you can use against Howard right now to slow him down is get him in foul trouble.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

JNice said:


> Right now Dwight's numbers are pretty much better than any single season Yao has had.


This is technically true (just), but it ignores the fact that Yao played injured many games, which considerably deflated his numbers. Yao after surgery a couple of seasons ago had a PER of over 29. That's virtually equal with a prime Shaq and Kareem. He had a starting supporting cast of Alston/Wesley/Bogans/Howard (this is back when T-Mac was injured, Wesley was still in the league and Bogans hadn't yet broken out in Orlando), and had more defensive attention than I have ever seen any player receive.

Last year, even if you include the game in which he got injured and those in which he was recovering from injury, his PER was 27, which is equal to Dwight's right now. Only Yao is a far superior passer and a slightly better defender, both aspects of the game that are given marginal consideration in PER.

I don't disagree that Dwight is having the better season. But it would be absurd to think that this is Yao Ming -- that he has suddenly regressed massively at the age of 27. If you really think Dwight is a better scorer based on their ppg this season, you really should watch some Rockets games. Take the Kings game that finished half an hour ago. The Rockets fed Yao the ball in the first quarter and he scored 16 points. They hardly passed it to him at all the rest of the game, going entirely through McGrady. Yao had to make do with putbacks and broken plays. He finished with 29. I'll always be a Rockets fan, but if this is going to continue I would prefer Yao to be traded so that his prime isn't squandered.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

One person is flooding the boards with crap. Is this Amareca's 2.0? Bigger. Faster. More Annoying?


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Hakeem said:


> This is technically true (just), but it ignores the fact that Yao played injured many games, which considerably deflated his numbers. Yao after surgery a couple of seasons ago had a PER of over 29. That's virtually equal with a prime Shaq and Kareem. He had a starting supporting cast of Alston/Wesley/Bogans/Howard (this is back when T-Mac was injured, Wesley was still in the league and Bogans hadn't yet broken out in Orlando), and had more defensive attention than I have ever seen any player receive.
> 
> Last year, even if you include the game in which he got injured and those in which he was recovering from injury, his PER was 27, which is equal to Dwight's right now. Only Yao is a far superior passer and a slightly better defender, both aspects of the game that are given marginal consideration in PER.
> 
> I don't disagree that Dwight is having the better season. But it would be absurd to think that this is Yao Ming -- that he has suddenly regressed massively at the age of 27. If you really think Dwight is a better scorer based on their ppg this season, you really should watch some Rockets games. Take the Kings game that finished half an hour ago. The Rockets fed Yao the ball in the first quarter and he scored 16 points. They hardly passed it to him at all the rest of the game, going entirely through McGrady. Yao had to make do with putbacks and broken plays. He finished with 29. I'll always be a Rockets fan, but if this is going to continue I would prefer Yao to be traded so that his prime isn't squandered.


Howard is a better scorer. He is top 10 in scoring and tied for #1 in FG%. He also leads the league in rebounds, something Yao will never do or even be in the running for and he is 3rd in blocks. Howad is the better player right now and will only continue to improve, baring injury.


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