# Zach, Miles, strip bar incident?



## mgb (Jun 26, 2004)

Anyone hear about Zach and Miles being at a strip club when a shot was fired? A friend called and said he heard about it on the Fan.


----------



## ROYisR.O.Y. (Apr 1, 2007)

no but if its true they are as good as gone. all this new stuff that KP has been preaching doesnt fit with miles and randolph.


----------



## ROYisR.O.Y. (Apr 1, 2007)

just read it on another forum too. its not that they were at a place were a gun was fired but i really dont think the blazers want a public announcement every time they go to a strip club. its not seen as a place where quality people usually end up.


----------



## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

ROYisR.O.Y. said:


> no but if its true they are as good as gone. all this new stuff that KP has been preaching doesnt fit with miles and randolph.


For being at a strip club when a shot was fired? I'd like them gone for other reasons, but thats just ridiculous. 

If they had something to do with it, that would be one thing. But just because there was shots fired doesn't mean anything.


----------



## HispanicCausinPanic (Jul 2, 2005)

ROYisR.O.Y. said:


> just read it on another forum too. its not that they were at a place were a gun was fired but i really dont think the blazers want a public announcement every time they go to a strip club. its not seen as a place where quality people usually end up.


I don't know what strip club you go to, but I've met some very high quality women at strip clubs.


----------



## craigehlo (Feb 24, 2005)

Why were they hanging in a parking lot which was the scene of a shooting minutes earlier, yet nobody saw anything? Zbo doesn't have a good track record of being honest to police in shooting cases so far. He was almost charged in the incident where his brother shot someone and he needed to give a 2nd statement to avoid being charged himself. Dude also rolls around packing in his car we learned from the racing incident last year.

The light bulb will never go on for Zbo.


----------



## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

Once again, big whoop unless they were involved in an incident themselves. The facts are that strip bars are pretty seedy places. Some people like them, some people don't. It doesn't make somebody a criminal if they like to look at naked chicks. If something happens to go down while they are there, that doesn't make them a criminal either.


----------



## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

hasoos said:


> It doesn't make somebody a criminal if they like to look at naked chicks.


What? Why didn't someone tell me that before? I've been hiding from the police in the basement ever since I turned 12.

barfo


----------



## craigehlo (Feb 24, 2005)

hasoos said:


> It doesn't make somebody a criminal if they like to look at naked chicks.


This is about two faces of the franchise, who make huge money, at the scene of a reported gun being fired. This isn't about being at a strip bar.

We still don't know the whole story, but Zbo's track record of being at the scene gun violence and then not being completely honest to police about it isn't trivial.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/blazers/2004-08-23-randolph-charge_x.htm


----------



## yuyuza1 (May 24, 2006)

craigehlo said:


> This is about *two faces of the franchise*, who make huge money, at the scene of a reported gun being fired. This isn't about being at a strip bar.
> 
> We still don't know the whole story, but Zbo's track record of being at the scene gun violence and then not being completely honest to police about it isn't trivial.
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/blazers/2004-08-23-randolph-charge_x.htm



I don't think this is true any longer. :wave:


----------



## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

So, I suppose if I am at my bank when it gets robbed, that would make me a bank robber?

Some people need to A) get a grip, and B) get a life. Spending all your time looking for things to complain about doesn't make you virtuous - just boring.


----------



## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

Bubba: Damn Earl, them strippers wouldn't pay us any attention with those high rollin blazer dudes in there tossin around all that money.

Earl: Ya dat pisses me off too.

Bubba: Hey, let's have sum fun and bust a cap or two in the air when they come out. Hehehe, they'll get in all kinds of trouble over this, that'll fix em. 

Earl: I wish I could read so's I could find out what they're goin to say about this in the newspaper tomorrow. Hehehe


----------



## craigehlo (Feb 24, 2005)

Oldmangrouch said:


> So, I suppose if I am at my bank when it gets robbed, that would make me a bank robber.


If the police show up to a reported bank robbery and then nobody says they saw anything, even though there's physical evidence a robbery took place, that's a closer metaphor. Plus there's a person hanging out at the bank that was at a robbery before and previously lied to the police about it.


----------



## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Thank God we didn't trade Zach at the deadline. His value will only go up during the offseason when he always stays out of trouble. That's what quite a few people wanted. Now there is yet another incident.


----------



## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

Has anyone tried the simple method of checking the Portland police blotter? If shots were fired there would surely be a police report. And there would also be a report of witnesses.

Or is it better to demand two people be run out of town on a rail based on third hand rumors of an alleged crime that they may have been in the vicinity of and may have seen but may not know anything about and maybe they should not go to strip clubs and maybe some people really hate Zach and maybe since Zach wrongly but understandably covered up his brother's involvement in a crime then maybe he is always lying...


----------



## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

On a positive note: it's nice to see Zach and Darius are staying in town for the summer . . . and supporting the local community.


----------



## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Kiss_My_Darius said:


> On a positive note: it's nice to see Zach and Darius are staying in town for the summer . . . and supporting the local community.




Great point. Those are the kinds of things I need to keep in mind before I bash Dariuys and Zach. It should also be noted that Zach's brother is in Portland as well. Not only is he staying, but bring other people into the community to help support the ecomomy


----------



## Oil Can (May 25, 2006)

An incident report was filed. No one saw the shot fired. A casing was found in the parking lot.


----------



## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

crandc said:


> Has anyone tried the simple method of checking the Portland police blotter? If shots were fired there would surely be a police report. And there would also be a report of witnesses.
> 
> Or is it better to demand two people be run out of town on a rail based on third hand rumors of an alleged crime that they may have been in the vicinity of and may have seen but may not know anything about and maybe they should not go to strip clubs and maybe some people really hate Zach and maybe since Zach wrongly but understandably covered up his brother's involvement in a crime then maybe he is always lying...



Aaah comon Crandc. That would make too much sense. Wild speculation is much funner!


----------



## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

This certainly casts our servicemen in a horrible light, as they are in the vicinity of shootings on a daily basis.

I assume the Blazers will never sign a war veteran.


----------



## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

Oldmangrouch said:


> So, I suppose if I am at my bank when it gets robbed, that would make me a bank robber?
> 
> Some people need to A) get a grip, and B) get a life. Spending all your time looking for things to complain about doesn't make you virtuous - just boring.



You're obviously missing the point. The point is, there have been SOOOO many threads exactly like this, saying "some people need to get a grip", or "stop complaining about other people's personal lives", etc...

The problem is, it isn't some weird occurance where Zach happened to be in the vicinity of a gun shot. I have never been in the vicinity of random gunshots at a strip club / bar / public city area, and I bet most people on this board never have either. But SOMEHOW, Zach has been in that situation over, and over, and over. It can't be just a coincidence. Zach obviously puts himself in bad situations that normal, slightly intelligent people just don't end up in repeatedly. 

Whether he had anything to do with the gun shots isn't the question. Its how can he be such a complete moron, that these type of stories are always popping up? I want Zach gone. He's a moron, and these situations will not stop with him.


----------



## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

blazerboy30 said:


> You're obviously missing the point. The point is, there have been SOOOO many threads exactly like this, saying "some people need to get a grip", or "stop complaining about other people's personal lives", etc...


You wanna know why there are so many posts saying people need to get a grip? 

Because there are so many threads making a big deal out of insignificant matters. Like this thread.

Ed O.


----------



## ebott (Jan 7, 2003)

I'm pretty sure Kevin Pritchard wants to trade Zach. And every incident like this makes it harder. 

If I thought we were dedicated to Zach, like I have in the past, I wouldn't care. Cause the only reason I know Zach Randolph is alive, much less know what he does in his daily life, is because he's a very good basketball player. So it's what he does on the court that I care about.

That's not the case any more. And when you're trying to trade a guy, off the court stuff comes into play. It's a minor incident, but it's one of those things that's going on the court of public opinion rap sheet. This season he's got this, the strip club when he was on bereavement leave and the deal with the stripper before the season. I'd say all of those are minor and not worthy of mentioning by themselves. But another team's GM is going to bring it up in trade talks.


----------



## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

Ed O said:


> You wanna know why there are so many posts saying people need to get a grip?
> 
> Because there are so many threads making a big deal out of insignificant matters. Like this thread.
> 
> Ed O.


I agree that this should be an insignificant matter, and shouldn't be a big deal to people. But, like I asked before, how is it that Zach is CONSTANTLY around these "insignificant matters" when 'normal' people like us don't seem to routinely be in these situations? 

Maybe I'm wrong....maybe the majority of people around here ARE always in situations and places where random gunshots, concealed weapons etc, are commonplace.


----------



## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

blazerboy30 said:


> I agree that this should be an insignificant matter, and shouldn't be a big deal to people. But, like I asked before, how is it that Zach is CONSTANTLY around these "insignificant matters" when 'normal' people like us don't seem to routinely be in these situations?
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong....maybe the majority of people around here ARE always in situations and places where random gunshots, concealed weapons etc, are commonplace.




It's like that old Tony Kornheiser quote: Guys need to stop putting themselves in these situations. You never hear about shots being fired at 3 am outside the library.


----------



## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

blazerboy30 said:


> I agree that this should be an insignificant matter, and shouldn't be a big deal to people. But, like I asked before, how is it that Zach is CONSTANTLY around these "insignificant matters" when 'normal' people like us don't seem to routinely be in these situations?


Because he doesn't care. He doesn't care because it doesn't matter.

The only reason that it's a story is because some people care. Zach is not one of those people, so he doesn't take steps to avoid it.

Ed O.


----------



## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

Ed O said:


> Because he doesn't care. He doesn't care because it doesn't matter.
> 
> The only reason that it's a story is because some people care. Zach is not one of those people, so he doesn't take steps to avoid it.
> 
> Ed O.


I could be way off here, but you must care. Otherwise you wouldn't take steps to avoid these situations. Are you constantly around random gun shots, and concealed weapon incidents? If not, then you care enough to not get into those situations. 

I think most of us care, so it shouldn't be unreasonable for us to expect Zach to care.


----------



## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

blazerboy30 said:


> I could be way off here, but you must care. Otherwise you wouldn't take steps to avoid these situations. Are you constantly around random gun shots, and concealed weapon incidents? If not, then you care enough to not get into those situations.


That's simply not true.

I haven't eaten Greek food in over a year. I LOVE Greek food.

According to you, though, since I haven't had it, I must be taking steps to avoid it.



> I think most of us care, so it shouldn't be unreasonable for us to expect Zach to care.


I think it's quite unreasonable. Zach Randolph is a grown man. It's the offseason, and what he does with his free time isn't really my business at all. If he ends up getting shot, it will be a bad thing for him and an unfortunate thing. If he ends up shooting someone I hope he goes to jail (unless it's justified, of course).

It's not my place, as a fan, to dictate when and how people should spend their free time.

If I were Zach's employer? I might be in a different mindset.

Ed O.


----------



## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

mediocre man said:


> It's like that old Tony Kornheiser quote: Guys need to stop putting themselves in these situations. You never hear about shots being fired at 3 am outside the library.



The flip side to this argument, is that most of us aren't being stalked 24/7/365 by media dweebs and "anti-fans". When a possum gets run over in your neighborhood, the press doesn't write breathless articles labeling you a reckless/drunk driver. People don't assume that you are (somehow) responsible for everything that happens anywhere in your vicinity.

As for Kornholer.....this is the same arrogant mediot who proclaimed that Sheed should be banned from the NBA for life because of his "disrespectful" behavior towards the media. (BTW,Find me a library that is *open* at 3AM, and I will find you a police report involving the place!)


----------



## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

Ed O said:


> That's simply not true.
> 
> I haven't eaten Greek food in over a year. I LOVE Greek food.
> 
> According to you, though, since I haven't had it, I must be taking steps to avoid it.


It sounds like you're questioning my logic. But, I used your exact logic from your previous post. Now, when I re-use it, it doesn't make any sense? Strange. 

Regardless, I think I'm still missing your point. If you haven't eaten Greek food in over a year, then obviously you ARE avoiding it. Unless you have been looking for it and it just doesn't exist where you are. 

The point is, that for most things, you have to be taking steps to NOT avoid them to be constantly in bad situations. 



Ed O said:


> I think it's quite unreasonable. Zach Randolph is a grown man. It's the offseason, and what he does with his free time isn't really my business at all. If he ends up getting shot, it will be a bad thing for him and an unfortunate thing. If he ends up shooting someone I hope he goes to jail (unless it's justified, of course).
> 
> It's not my place, as a fan, to dictate when and how people should spend their free time.
> 
> ...


So people's decisions and what they do in their free time have NO impact on your feelings towards them? If Zach DID shoot somebody, you wouldn't dislike him, you would just hope he goes to jail? 

I don't think anybody is trying to dictate when and how people should spend their free time. But its certaintly reasonable for some of us to dislike somebody as a person for choices that they make, and therfore not want them on the team that we pay money and time to, and cheer for. 


Maybe the key difference between the two sides of posters on issues like this is this:

Some of us like to root for and cheer for and follow high moral, high quality, class act, character players. I personally like to be able to respect the players on a personal level. 

Other posters, perhaps, just like watching the game, where the personalities and attitudes of players aren't real.... almost like watching cartoon characters a couple times a week, and cheering for bugs bunny over elmor fudd. Nothing wrong with that either. 

I can understand both sides, but those in the second group should not be coming in and telling the people in the first group that they need to get a grip, and that these issues don't matter. They do to some of us.... we are just different types of fans. 


(I think both sides would agree that Zach constantly being in these situations will at least slightly hurt his value around the league. Thus, it hurts our team if we are indeed looking to trade him.)


----------



## It's_GO_Time (Oct 13, 2005)

Interesting note: I was driving in my car to get lunch and was listening to Dan Patrick. He tore into Pac-Man Jones for going to a strip club the night before meeting with the commisioner. It was funny and had a element of common sense to it that made me say "yea, why was that idiot going to a strip club"

Point being, there are two persepctives to this issue. Given Patrick's rant on Jones, I suspect that he would take the position that Zach is an idiot for being at a strip club after everything he has gone through . . . the sarcastic idea of "get a grip" could be applied to either position.

To steal Patrick's thought . . . bottom line is Zach is just not a smart person.


----------



## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

blazerboy30 said:


> It sounds like you're questioning my logic. But, I used your exact logic from your previous post. Now, when I re-use it, it doesn't make any sense? Strange.
> 
> Regardless, I think I'm still missing your point. If you haven't eaten Greek food in over a year, then obviously you ARE avoiding it. Unless you have been looking for it and it just doesn't exist where you are.
> 
> ...



But are you really rooting for a higher class player, or a guy who just is smart enough to avoid those situations and not get caught. 

So many people, especially on this board, get caught up in the fact that players, some in particular don't live their lives they would like them to live it. Hell I probably don't either. I just think that people need to get off their high horse and quit being judgemental. Quit expecting for others to live their lives as you live yours, its their life. If they haven't broke the law, they are within their rights to do what they want. You may not like it, but there is a reason people live here in the USA. To live free, and live life how they want to. Not how you want them to.


----------



## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

blazerboy30 said:


> It sounds like you're questioning my logic. But, I used your exact logic from your previous post. Now, when I re-use it, it doesn't make any sense? Strange.


You didn't use the same logic at all. I said that Zach doesn't care, and he doesn't care because they don't matter.

You said that because I am not in situations where shots are fired, I must take steps to avoid them.

Those are not parallel statements.



> Regardless, I think I'm still missing your point. If you haven't eaten Greek food in over a year, then obviously you ARE avoiding it. Unless you have been looking for it and it just doesn't exist where you are.


I have not taken ONE step to avoid eating it. I have taken no steps to eat it.

You're saying, it seems, that the absence of a positive number means that it must be a negative number. Which is not true, because zero exists.



> So people's decisions and what they do in their free time have NO impact on your feelings towards them? If Zach DID shoot somebody, you wouldn't dislike him, you would just hope he goes to jail?


I don't like or dislike any Blazers players as people. I don't know them.

I like or dislike Blazers players as PLAYERS.



> Maybe the key difference between the two sides of posters on issues like this is this:
> 
> Some of us like to root for and cheer for and follow high moral, high quality, class act, character players. I personally like to be able to respect the players on a personal level.
> 
> Other posters, perhaps, just like watching the game, where the personalities and attitudes of players aren't real.... almost like watching cartoon characters a couple times a week, and cheering for bugs bunny over elmor fudd. Nothing wrong with that either.


I think that this is an essentially correct statement.



> I can understand both sides, but those in the second group should not be coming in and telling the people in the first group that they need to get a grip, and that these issues don't matter. They do to some of us.... we are just different types of fans.


Those issues have nothing to do with basketball. Have nothing to do with a player's ability to make a team better.

If you want to talk about irrelevancies and carry them over into how a player is evaluated as a player, feel free to do so, but understand that some of us are going to point out the irrationality of it.

Similarly, some of us use stats in our discussions and there are always people questioning the legitimacy of statistics... I disagree with that questioning but it will always happen because of different ways of following the sport.

Ed O.


----------



## HispanicCausinPanic (Jul 2, 2005)

blazerboy30 said:


> It sounds like you're questioning my logic. But, I used your exact logic from your previous post. Now, when I re-use it, it doesn't make any sense? Strange.
> 
> Regardless, I think I'm still missing your point. If you haven't eaten Greek food in over a year, then obviously you ARE avoiding it. Unless you have been looking for it and it just doesn't exist where you are.
> 
> ...


What?????????? You are spending way too much time analyzing this. ZBO did nothing wrong! Get over it! Go walk your dog or somthing! Someone please end this thread!


----------



## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

Ed O said:


> I don't like or dislike any Blazers players as people. I don't know them.
> 
> I like or dislike Blazers players as PLAYERS.


You don't always have to know somebody to like or dislike them. If you know about decisions they have made, or dumb, or terrible things they have done, you might not like somebody even not knowing them personally. 

Admittedly extreme example: Do you dislike Hitler? I'm guessing you didn't personally know him, and I HOPE you don't like him. 

I know, Zach didn't do anything wrong this time. But the point is after repeated dumb decisions and actions, many people here don't like him as a person, and don't want him on the team. 





Ed O said:


> Those issues have nothing to do with basketball. Have nothing to do with a player's ability to make a team better.
> 
> If you want to talk about irrelevancies and carry them over into how a player is evaluated as a player, feel free to do so, but understand that some of us are going to point out the irrationality of it.
> 
> Ed O.


I personally think it does carry to the basketball court, and ability to make a tearm better. You don't. That's fine. But I'm not pointing out the irrationality of your thoughts. Neither one of our positions can be proven, and I'm OK with that. Hopefully we can agree that there are a lot of GM's that do put a lot of emphasis on character, so my position can't be THAT far off base.


----------



## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

HispanicCausinPanic said:


> What?????????? You are spending way too much time analyzing this. ZBO did nothing wrong! Get over it! Go walk your dog or somthing! Someone please end this thread!



I don't want to repeat what I have been saying. Here is some advice. 

Step 1: read what I typed 
Step 2: comprehend what I typed 

It will help, I promise. 


PS: Why the excalmation marks? You're the only one getting all fired up about this.


----------



## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

I find the idea of strip clubs both revolting and puzzling. I could never be friends with a man who frequented such places and I can't imagine one's intimate partner doing so. 

However...

I also know they are popular among NBA players. In most cities, saying an NBA player went to a strip club is about as astonishing as saying an NBA player is tall.

Stephen Jackson is facing charges for firing a gun outside a strip club and he is adored in Oakland. It certainly is not negatively affecting his play.

So, apparently Darius Miles and Zach Randolph were at such an establishment when shots were fired, perhaps in the parking lot. Not by them or anyone in their party and they appear to have no information on the matter. The only reason it is a story is that in Portland you have Crapanzo, self-appointed runner-out-of-town of players he does not like. In 28 other NBA cities it would probably never make the newspapers.


----------



## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

crandc said:


> I find the idea of strip clubs both revolting and puzzling. I could never be friends with a man who frequented such places and I can't imagine one's intimate partner doing so.


That's kind of an interesting viewpoint. How do you feel about gratuitous nudity in movies (and the men who watch them)? Magazines? Websites?

Are some of those more or less revolting or puzzling? 

I guess from my point of view as an average guy, they are all about the same.

barfo



Lou Reed said:


> I aint no christian or no born again saint
> I aint no cowboy or marxist d.a.
> I aint no criminal or reverend cripple from the right
> I am just your average guy, trying to do whats right
> ...


----------



## TheBlueDoggy (Oct 5, 2004)

It's funny, if I were at a strip club, and someone fired a shot somewhere and there was this whole excitement over it, when I went home, my friends and family wouldn't be saying, "You're a bad person. You were at a strip club when a shot was fired. That's YOUR fualt for putting yourself in a situation when a shot was fired that you couldn't have possibly known would happen. BAAAAD!" They'd be saying, "Hey, are you all right?"

Some people here don't need to "get a grip." They need a reality check.


----------



## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

TheBlueDoggy said:


> It's funny, if I were at a strip club, and someone fired a shot somewhere and there was this whole excitement over it, when I went home, my friends and family wouldn't be saying, "You're a bad person. You were at a strip club when a shot was fired. That's YOUR fualt for putting yourself in a situation when a shot was fired that you couldn't have possibly known would happen. BAAAAD!" They'd be saying, "Hey, are you all right?"
> 
> Some people here don't need to "get a grip." They need a reality check.


But we aren't Zach and Darius' friends and family.

barfo


----------



## TheBlueDoggy (Oct 5, 2004)

barfo said:


> But we aren't Zach and Darius' friends and family.
> 
> barfo


Remember, we're "The Sixth Man" and the Rose Garden "is our house." Sounds like friends and/or family to me :biggrin:


----------



## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

TheBlueDoggy said:


> Remember, we're "The Sixth Man" and the Rose Garden "is our house." Sounds like friends and/or family to me :biggrin:


The Rose Garden is clearly not my house. I don't charge myself $8 for a beer, for one thing. 

And Paul Allen never comes to my house. Not sure why. 

barfo


----------



## TheBlueDoggy (Oct 5, 2004)

barfo said:


> The Rose Garden is clearly not my house. I don't charge myself $8 for a beer, for one thing.
> 
> And Paul Allen never comes to my house. Not sure why.
> 
> barfo


Clearly because he doesn't understand your charming personality the way we do :cheers:


----------



## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

TheBlueDoggy said:


> Clearly because he doesn't understand your charming personality the way we do :cheers:


Either that or he's worried I might steal his girl.

barfo


----------



## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

blazerboy30 said:


> I don't think anybody is trying to dictate when and how people should spend their free time.


it seems like thats exactly whats going on.



> Some of us like to root for and cheer for and follow high moral, high quality, class act, character players. I personally like to be able to respect the players on a personal level.
> 
> Other posters, perhaps, just like watching the game, where the personalities and attitudes of players aren't real.... almost like watching cartoon characters a couple times a week, and cheering for bugs bunny over elmor fudd. Nothing wrong with that either.
> 
> I can understand both sides, but those in the second group should not be coming in and telling the people in the first group that they need to get a grip, and that these issues don't matter. They do to some of us.... we are just different types of fans.


I'd put my own spin on this differentiation of types of fans. Some of us like to imagine that we're rooting for high quality classy players/humble individuals who they could hang out with. These fans really want to believe the fawning write-ups and love it when players give an "Aw shucks" sort of interview. These same sort of fans seem to be constantly looking for a reason to turn on the same player(s) when they say things out of touch with their personal reality or do things that they might not agree with (like going to strip clubs or not marrying the mother of their child). These fans typically believe that players are in their debt for following them, and expect their behavior to reflect the image that they've constructed. Almost like cheering for Santa and the Easter Bunny, these fans get upset when they begin to suspect they are rooting for a fat old recluse or a big eared rodent who is underachieving (in their opinion).

Other fans realize the PR game being played from the get go. They realize that they will never know the players personally and don't project their personal expectations on them. Typically lower class/poor education backgrounds combine with millions of dollars in annual salary and a life in the public eye to form a significant divide between pro athletes and the general public. These fans understand this and don't cringe when quotes of 20 year olds debating how many Italian sports cars they should own come out. They have observed the ebb and flow of the fawning/negative press coverage and understand how stories pushing the buttons of fan #1 captures the attention of casual fans and moves papers. They've seen enough supposive high moral/character players turn out to be OJ, Kirby Puckett, and Kobe not to buy into the latest sunshine being blown up our collective bleeps aboout this year's new faces. These fans follow the game and root for the team as closely as any, but when a Canzano starts screaming Wolf! they merely roll their collective eyes and go on with their lives like the jaded townspeople who no longer run up the hill to gawk and be disappointed. These fans typically relagate their condemnation of a player to when actual laws are broken or if the guy isn't getting it done on the court.

I understand both sides and there is nothing wrong with either, but those in the first group shouldn't expect the others to give a bleep about the latest tabloid stupidity of how Johnny Ballplayer isn't living up to their personal standards of whats right. If they do, they shouldn't be surprised at the get a grip/life response. 

STOMP


----------



## Utherhimo (Feb 20, 2005)

i used to go to strip clubs a lot but not now...they are a tease nothing more.


----------



## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

STOMP said:


> These fans typically relagate their condemnation of a player to when actual laws are broken or if the guy isn't getting it done on the court.
> 
> 
> STOMP



Fair enough. But as an honest question......

Kobe hasn't officially broken any laws (wasn't he found innocent?). He clearly performs at a high level on the court. Do you like Kobe? Could you root for Kobe? If so, then I think we are in complete agreement about all of this. If you don't like Kobe and couldn't root for him, that seems pretty hypocritical to me.


----------



## crandc (Sep 15, 2004)

Barfo, depends on context. I am certainly not offended by nudity "per se". I am bothered by the idea of fully clothed men sitting around drinking while women strip. I've said before I can see how a straight man would get a thrill from watching a woman with whom he's involved disrobe, no matter how short term the involvement. I truly do not see the thrill in men sitting around watching totally impersonal strangers strip and to me it says a lot about how those men think of women. 

Sure is not the same as seeing Michelangelo's David, or Rodin's The Kiss. Or the brief nude scenes in Hair and Equus. Or for that matter the naked antiwar protestors in Bare Witness.


----------



## AudieNorris (Jun 29, 2006)

crandc said:


> Barfo, depends on context. I am certainly not offended by nudity "per se". I am bothered by the idea of fully clothed men sitting around drinking while women strip. I've said before I can see how a straight man would get a thrill from watching a woman with whom he's involved disrobe, no matter how short term the involvement. I truly do not see the thrill in men sitting around watching totally impersonal strangers strip and to me it says a lot about how those men think of women.
> 
> Sure is not the same as seeing Michelangelo's David, or Rodin's The Kiss. Or the brief nude scenes in Hair and Equus. Or for that matter the naked antiwar protestors in Bare Witness.


I think it says more about what those men think of themselves. The women are paid by the men and they don't actually have to have sex with them. To me, its like falling for one of those Nigerian email scams.

The selfish behavior shown by Zach in regards to these sorts of things demonstrate exactly the kind of player he is on the court--selfish.


----------



## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

crandc said:


> Barfo, depends on context. I am certainly not offended by nudity "per se". I am bothered by the idea of fully clothed men sitting around drinking while women strip.


Drinking and watching women strip are two of the greatest pleasures in male life, so why not combine them? [/good ol boy]



> I've said before I can see how a straight man would get a thrill from watching a woman with whom he's involved disrobe, no matter how short term the involvement. I truly do not see the thrill in men sitting around watching totally impersonal strangers strip and to me it says a lot about how those men think of women.


Perhaps guys just have active imaginations? Is it so big a leap from enjoying watching a woman with whom we are briefly involved with strip, to enjoying watching a woman with whom we are imagining being briefly involved with strip?

But, truth is, guys have been known to have sex with inanimate objects and barnyard animals. Sex drive for men doesn't necessarily have any emotional content whatsoever, and we are (for reasons I don't know) very visually oriented. [Makes me wonder about blind guys... I'm sure that study has been done, but I haven't read it.] So strippers, porn, miniskirts, cleavage, etc. are all of some interest to your average straight male. I'm not sure it's so much how we think of women (although there are certainly reasons to be concerned about that) so much as something more basic (or base), more an appetite than a thought. 

Dunno. I'm no expert. But my observation is that the vast majority of straight males (like, 99.99%) enjoy [to a greater or lesser degree] seeing random attractive nude females. Some of us choose not to go to strip clubs for various reasons, but that's behavior rather than fundamental disinterest in seeing naked strangers.

barfo


----------



## graybeard (May 10, 2003)

barfo said:


> Drinking and watching women strip are two of the greatest pleasures in male life, so why not combine them? [/good ol boy]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Barf, that .01% is lying.

The male hormone in us it what causes it, it's nature's way.


----------



## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

blazerboy30 said:


> Fair enough. But as an honest question......
> 
> Kobe hasn't officially broken any laws (wasn't he found innocent?). He clearly performs at a high level on the court. Do you like Kobe? Could you root for Kobe? If so, then I think we are in complete agreement about all of this. If you don't like Kobe and couldn't root for him, that seems pretty hypocritical to me.


Kobe wasn't found innocent. He paid millions to settle his felony rape case out of court. 

He is a bad example for you to try to use with me as I only root against one pro hoops team. I feel that the Lakers (probably because of their huge fanbase/ratings they generate) receive clear favor from the league's officials. I guess it's not so much them as the favoritism that they enjoy that I dislike. Coming out of high school Kobe forced his way onto this team I root against threatening any other team that might have drafted him that he would enroll at UNC and leave them with nothing. I understand why a player would use leverage to get onto a league/media favorite, but forcing his way onto the team that I find in the center of something fundamentally wrong with the sport doesn't rub me the right way.

I can root for Kobe in the sense that I do enjoy it when he makes a particularly spectacular play. Does that make me a fan of his??? I certainly don't think you and I are anywhere close to complete agreement here, but I don't see how I'm a hypocrite either. I wrote about the two groups of fans in generalities (my statement you quoted used the word _typically_), not stereotypes that hold hard and fast true one way or the other... did you mean your example to rigidly define a dividing line between Blazer fans? 

Having thought about this since I posted last, it mainly strikes me as odd that you'd paint those who don't pretend to know what players are like as rooting for cartoons. The fans on the other side of the fence from you just aren't investing themselves in the personal hype and playing make believe that someone we don't really know but watch shoot jumpers on TV is a super guy. They aren't watching imaginary figures, they're watching basketball players go at it. Those fans don't find it necessary to project a caricature personality onto players to be able to root for them. Hey, I hope Johnny Ballplayer is a great guy just like I hope you and everyone else here are good people, but I've had some real unflattering glimpses of Blazers and other pro athletes. Entitled bleeps with the two faced act down. While not without exceptions, I think a disproportionate amount of top athletes tend to be this way... maybe it comes with being catered throughout their school years? I really don't know and only wish I had the time to care... but I don't so I don't. 

STOMP


----------



## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

Utherhimo said:


> i used to go to strip clubs a lot but not now...they are a tease nothing more.


ha ha ha.

Of all the things to be confused about, a strip club should not top the list.

With all the b.s. in the world, all the lies and deception, you would think STRIP was the big clue. It is not called a sex club. Truth in advertising.

People go to strip clubs to get teased. In case you didn't know, some people like getting teased.

If you didn't want that, you went to the wrong place.


----------



## blazerboy30 (Apr 30, 2003)

STOMP said:


> Kobe wasn't found innocent. He paid millions to settle his felony rape case out of court.
> 
> STOMP


He wasn't found guilty, was he? In this country isn't he innocent until proven guilty? I don't know all the details, but he was never found guilty of a felony, I don't believe. 




STOMP said:


> I can root for Kobe in the sense that I do enjoy it when he makes a particularly spectacular play. Does that make me a fan of his???
> 
> STOMP


I can definitely understand respecting him as a player. He's incredible. But I could NEVER root for him, whether he is on the Lakers, or even the Blazers. In my opinion, he is not somebody I could ever root for because I dislike him as a person so much. 




STOMP said:


> Having thought about this since I posted last, it mainly strikes me as odd that you'd paint those who don't pretend to know what players are like as rooting for cartoons. The fans on the other side of the fence from you just aren't investing themselves in the personal hype and playing make believe that someone we don't really know but watch shoot jumpers on TV is a super guy. They aren't watching imaginary figures, they're watching basketball players go at it. Those fans don't find it necessary to project a caricature personality onto players to be able to root for them.
> 
> STOMP


I admit, "cartoons" was probably the wrong choice of words. I couldn't find the right one at the time. My point is that once the players are off the the TV, many people don't care what they do or how they live their lives, almost like they don't exist or contribute to the real world. 

I will admit its not my place to tell them how they should behave or live their lives, but I definitely have the right to not respect them, and hence not want them on my favorite team after they make repeated stupid / bad decisions. 

Its not some celebrity obsession. I don't care who they are dating, what clothes they wear, etc. But I do care when they are racing through downtown Portland, carrying weapons and lying to police, SOMEHOW always around when shots are being fired, etc. I can't root for players like that, and if I personally knew somebody like that, I wouldn't respect them or like them either.


----------



## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

barfo said:


> Some of us choose not to go to strip clubs for various reasons, but that's behavior rather than fundamental disinterest in seeing naked strangers.
> 
> barfo


Males interest in seeing naked strangers generally is likely fairly low.

Nudist colonies are not particularly popular. All the nudes anyone could possibly want to see. Yet, "men" don't often go there to hang out. Why not? Older folks, overweight people, blotchy skin, hairy backs. Everybody put your clothes back on.

Let's parse this strip club thing a bit. What are some of the elements behind these places that baffle crandc?

And by the way, it has little to do with drinking. In some places in the U.S. alcohol cannot be served in strip joints and they still open the clubs.

In general, strip clubs for men are places where numbers of attractive, young, nubile women dance, strip, sometimes to complete nudity, where the men are not allowed to fondle or have sex with them. So why go as urithemo wondered? He didn't ultimately enjoy it, but was compelled to go initially. Other men go regularly. Why?

Males are visual in regards to sex. In a way that crandc may have a hard time really understanding. And it relates to our purpose - passing on DNA.

Males are hardwired to prefer beauty, more so than females, who balance beauty with other criteria helpful for offspring survival. Beauty is indicated by: 

Health - clear skin, ideal weight, symmetry, etc.
Fecundity - signaled in nature by hourglass figure and youth

Youth is an important element as males are programmed to prefer it for increased chance of offspring survival and lessened chance of birth defects.

Availability is an element expressed by these women displaying themselves as if they are ready for sex. Females are often more "available" or aggressive in seeking sex when they are most fertile.

Multiple partners. Though not available to all males so not the only strategy employed, one strategy for passing on as much DNA as possible is to become powerful, and have sex with as many fertile women as possible. The pinnacle of this strategy must be Genghis Khan - he conquered all the world he knew, and along the way, impregnated thousands, preferring young, beautiful virgins. Which he was able to demand since he was the king.

In some way strip clubs play off the impulse of males to want to be the King. To have a Harem.

I male have access to as many young, beautiful, healthy, fecund females as I desire.

At least that's the theory. Could just be the vast majority of males are *******es who think it funny to get drunk and throw dollars at naked women.


----------



## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

I am still an advocate of the "burger-flipper" rule.

If someone who worked at Burger King had been in that club, would that be news? If the answer is "no", then the story isn't news....period.

If you found out that a Burger King employee went to strip clubs, would you boycott Burger King? Before you buy a book, do you research to make sure the author has no vices? What about going to/renting movies with all the hedonistic heathens in Hollywood?

If the answer is "no", then why would you stop rooting for a basketball team just because a player went to a club?


----------



## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

blazerboy30 said:


> He wasn't found guilty, was he? In this country isn't he innocent until proven guilty? I don't know all the details, but he was never found guilty of a felony, I don't believe.


I responded to what you asked/stated. 



> I can definitely understand respecting him as a player. He's incredible. But I could NEVER root for him, whether he is on the Lakers, or even the Blazers. In my opinion, he is not somebody I could ever root for because I dislike him as a person so much.


thats fine



> I admit, "cartoons" was probably the wrong choice of words. I couldn't find the right one at the time. My point is that once the players are off the the TV, many people don't care what they do or how they live their lives, almost like they don't exist or contribute to the real world.
> 
> I will admit its not my place to tell them how they should behave or live their lives, but I definitely have the right to not respect them, and hence not want them on my favorite team after they make repeated stupid / bad decisions.
> 
> Its not some celebrity obsession. I don't care who they are dating, what clothes they wear, etc. But I do care when they are racing through downtown Portland, carrying weapons and lying to police, SOMEHOW always around when shots are being fired, etc. I can't root for players like that, and if I personally knew somebody like that, I wouldn't respect them or like them either.


we have lots of common ground here as I wouldn't respect let alone root for actual dangerous criminals. Heck I know I'm a lot less tolerant then most when it comes to driving impaired like Zach has been convicted of. I think those that get caught should immediately lose their driving privileges for a good stretch of time and be forced to perform a lot of community service. Putting the general public's lives at risk is not trivial. 

I do think it's disingenuous to claim that ZR is _"SOMEHOW always around when shots are being fired"_ though as this is only the second incident I can recall where shots were fired and Zach was reportedly in the vicinity... and in this case we don't have confirmation that shots were actually fired. I think the only reason this story is being reported at all is because of the sordid/titilating angle that he and Darius were leaving a strip club. 

STOMP


----------



## dudleysghost (Mar 24, 2006)

STOMP said:


> I do think it's disingenuous to claim that ZR is _"SOMEHOW always around when shots are being fired"_ though as this is only the second incident I can recall where shots were fired and Zach was reportedly in the vicinity... and in this case we don't have confirmation that shots were actually fired. I think the only reason this story is being reported at all is because of the sordid/titilating angle that he and Darius were leaving a strip club.


I think it would have been reported if it was any Blazer, but if it was Roy and Aldridge involved in this incident with very little actual information available, the same people bashing Zach would assume they didn't do anything wrong and give every possible explanation for how the event is meaningless.


----------

