# So Knicks are 5-0 without Stoudemire



## Hyperion

Is he next on the trading block? The Knicks are passing and playing defense. They are clearly not missing him and could turn him into a couple of solid lotto picks to the right team.


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## 29380

Hyperion said:


> Is he next on the trading block? The Knicks are passing and playing defense. *They are clearly not missing him and could turn him into a couple of solid lotto picks to the right team.*


No team in the NBA is dumb enough to do that except maybe the Wizards.


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## Jace

Hey, the dumber the team the better the picks, right?


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## Dre

I look at it like he'll only be an addition. He's been working hard all offseason and is a smarter guy than he's given credit for. He'll get in where he fits in and with Felton there to keep the offense from being stagnant they'll be fine.

Carmelo and Amare didn't work last year because there wasn't a point guard to keep them from just Isoing on either side of the court...it won't be the same as last year, they could definitely use his ability at the rim and his presence will draw attention too.


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## Dre

Knicks4life said:


> No team in the NBA is dumb enough to do that except maybe the Wizards.


watch your mouth


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## Luke

I'd trade him for the right collection of young role players at this point. It's been almost two years, it's obvious that he and 'Melo aren't going to work, and the Knicks have been playing better without him.


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## Dre

It's really not obvious because how much of that time have they both been completely healthy and had a point guard that can run the PnR


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## Hyperion

Dre said:


> I look at it like he'll only be an addition. He's been working hard all offseason and is a smarter guy than he's given credit for. He'll get in where he fits in and with Felton there to keep the offense from being stagnant they'll be fine.
> 
> Carmelo and Amare didn't work last year because there wasn't a point guard to keep them from just Isoing on either side of the court...it won't be the same as last year, they could definitely use his ability at the rim and his presence will draw attention too.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


So Nash couldn't even stop amare from using, but Felton can?


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## Luke

Two ball dominant offensive players that don't play defense isn't going to get you anywhere in the playoffs. If they can build around 'Melo with a great defensive cast along with a competent point guard and some scorers here and there they could do some damage. Especially considering how wide open the east is outside of Miami.


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## Jace

Dre said:


> I look at it like he'll only be an addition. He's been working hard all offseason and is a smarter guy than he's given credit for. He'll get in where he fits in and with Felton there to keep the offense from being stagnant they'll be fine.
> 
> Carmelo and Amare didn't work last year because there wasn't a point guard to keep them from just Isoing on either side of the court...it won't be the same as last year, they could definitely use his ability at the rim and his presence will draw attention too.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


No...It didn't work because the block is too crowded. Melo playing PF opens things up. Either Chandler or Stoudemire would have to be a backup to continue playing like this.


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## 29380

Dre said:


> watch your mouth
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


You know its the truth, they gave Arenas the same deal Amare has now after his knee injury and traded for the often injured Nene and his big contract.


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## XxIrvingxX

Luke said:


> Two ball dominant offensive players that don't play defense isn't going to get you anywhere in the playoffs.


And this is why the Phoenix Suns never got anywhere...


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## Dre

OK we will see when he gets back. 

I'm not going to argue this down because this board runs off momentum and Amare is not playing and the Knicks haven't lost yet...but suffice to say I disagree and if you choose to call me on it later if I'm proven wrong that's fine. I already explained myself.


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## Dre

Knicks4life said:


> You know its the truth, they gave Arenas the same deal Amare has now after his knee injury and traded for the often injured Nene and his big contract.


I know a bunch of hindsighters will try to shit on me but at that point for Arenas there was still a chance that he would recover and be an all-star, so Grunfeld took a gamble and lost.

And Nene I didn't understand that either but they also didn't trade multiple 1sts for him (especially probably lottery picks).

So don't single the Wizards out off a couple bad moves like other teams haven't made stupid moves too..didn't the Nets just give up a lottery pick for Gerald Wallace?


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## 29380

Dre said:


> So don't single the Wizards out off a couple bad moves like other teams haven't made stupid moves too..didn't the Nets just give up a lottery pick for Gerald Wallace?


Just saying the Wizards are willing to take risk on players with red flags if Amare get traded they are the first team I can think off that would give good value, I don't think the Nets are an option because I doubt Knicks would trade Amare just to get out of the contract right now.


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## Dre

Knicks4life said:


> Just saying the Wizards are willing to take risk on players with red flags if Amare get traded they are the first team I can think off that would give good value, I don't think the Nets are an option because I doubt Knicks would trade Amare just to get out of the contract right now.


A lot of teams are willing to do that, but what is "good value"? They don't even have "good value" at this point except for Wall, a couple young rotation/solid starter players and picks. None of which will either be enough or will be given out. I think you just snuck something in on a whim thinking no one would call you on it except I did


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## Jace

Dre said:


> OK we will see when he gets back.
> 
> I'm not going to argue this down because this board runs off momentum and Amare is not playing and the Knicks haven't lost yet...


Again, no. I've been saying they're better off without him since the summer. When it was announced STAT would be out, I said the Knicks would benefit.


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## Dre

No what :gay:


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## Jace

You implied everyone countering your "Amare will come back and everything will be awesome" argument is merely a prisoner of the moment.

:joel:


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## 29380

The Wizards give a max contract to a players coming off a MCL tear with or without hindsight that was at best a questionable at best, trade the #5 pick in 2009 Draft(Ricky Rubio) for Randy Foye and Mike Miller, trade Rashard Lewis' expiring contract for Trevor Ariza and Emeka Okafor, and I reaching for calling them dumb.


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## BlakeJesus

Amare needs to come in as the PF/C of the bench, otherwise he's got to go.


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## Dre

Knicks4life said:


> The Wizards give a max contract to a players coming off a MCL tear with or without hindsight that was at best a questionable at best, trade the #5 pick in 2009 Draft(Ricky Rubio) for Randy Foye and Mike Miller, trade Rashard Lewis' expiring contract for Trevor Ariza and Emeka Okafor, and I reaching for calling them dumb.


Yeah you are because that's all hindsight


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## Dre

I've been meaning to make a thread about whether Melo's international PF play (I once called him the best PF in the international game) could make it in the league but after 5 games I guess you all gave me your answer. OK.


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## 29380

If 95% of the moves an organization makes over past 5 years look bad with hindsight there is a reason and that reason is why they were the first team I thought of.


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## Jace

Dre said:


> I've been meaning to make a thread about whether Melo's international PF play (I once called him the best PF in the international game) could make it in the league but after 5 games I guess you all gave me your answer. OK.


Jesus, dude. The Knicks have been having more success with Melo at PF since before these first 5 games. I'll pass on rhetorically asking if you actually follow the league, but you're giving me doubts. Do you remember the stretch without Amare last year where they played very good ball with Melo logging heavy minutes at the 4? You keep trying to make us into knee-jerkers, but this is a trend that goes back to last year. Further, if you simply stop and think about it in the context of the direction the league has gone in response to rule changes over the last decade and a half, it would start to make sense to you.


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## XxIrvingxX

Despite the fact that Amare still has very big faults, I would say wait and let Amare return and have him play the starting position like he usually would, with Carmelo playing SF and Chandler playing C. Let this go for about a week, and see how it goes. Amare is still a great player in my view, I think trading him should not be a consideration for the Knicks (at least not yet it shouldn't).


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## Bogg

Considering that his contract carries no insurance and trading for him makes it impossible to amnesty him, I don't think trading him is even an option. It may come down to whether he can exist in the starting lineup or needs to play backup center.


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## BlakeJesus

I definitely think the answer is for him to play backup PF/C off the bench...I think if you want to see Melo and Amare on the floor together in spot minutes it should be with Steve Novak playing PF between them. Somebody who doesn't clog up the post and also stretches the post defenders creating more space down low.


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## Dre

Jace said:


> Jesus, dude. The Knicks have been having more success with Melo at PF since before these first 5 games. I'll pass on rhetorically asking if you actually follow the league, but you're giving me doubts. Do you remember the stretch without Amare last year where they played very good ball with Melo logging heavy minutes at the 4? You keep trying to make us into knee-jerkers, but this is a trend that goes back to last year. Further, if you simply stop and think about it in the context of the direction the league has gone in response to rule changes over the last decade and a half, it would start to make sense to you.


That worked in a stretch and it's working now but if the Knicks really commit to that it's nothing for them to then get banged out by the Pacers or 76ers in the playoffs. Even the Heat can go big for the series or just beat them at their own game because they're not faster then the Heat. Carmelo at the 4 sounds sexy and dynamic but he doesn't want to bang or defend when it gets down to the nitty gritty, and rebounding is key in the playoffs. It works for LeBron because he's built like Ben Wallace anyway. 

Also, with Amare playing like he's capable and proper ball movement they're set with that big frontcourt to have a favorable matchup for the Heat, so why become a poor man's version of them, that's my point.

I wouldn't give up on that without seeing how they play with Felton over at least say 15-20 games. 

And you may have been saying that forever but you'd also be wrong because like I said how many games have Amare and Melo played together with a real point guard?


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## hroz

Honestly I think many teams will gamble on Amare despite his contract. 

Also does amnesty provision work for players signed by other teams? Because then certain teams might become even more interested.


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## King Sancho Fantastic

Amnesty can only be used for players signed by the same team before the CBA.


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## Hyperion

King Sancho Fantastic said:


> Amnesty can only be used for players signed by the same team before the CBA.


No, it can be used for any contract signed before the new cba was inked. Every team gets one waiver otherwise every team under the cap would have balked like crazy.


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## King Sancho Fantastic

Hyperion said:


> No, it can be used for any contract signed before the new cba was inked. Every team gets one waiver otherwise every team under the cap would have balked like crazy.


That's what I meant. You can amnesty any player that was signed to your team before the CBA was signed.


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## Bogg

Yea, as I understand it, you can only amnesty players who were already on your roster and under their current contract when the CBA was put into place, which means no trading for a guy and amnestying him after the season. I used to think it was able to be used on _any_ contract signed before the CBA, but someone here pointed me in the direction of an article that explained otherwise.


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## Hyperion

Like arenas was amnestied by the magic when he was signed by the wizards. This cba allows every team to have an amnesty clause for any player signed by any team before the new cba was signed. So if a team were to trade for Kobe, they could amnesty him provided they didn't already amnesty a player.


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## Bogg

Orlando acquired Arenas in the middle of the '10-'11 season, _before_ the new CBA went into effect. It doesn't matter who the contract was originally signed with, but they had to be on the roster at the time of the CBA being accepted.


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## Dre

I'm rewatching this Nets-Knicks that I missed the finish of last night and the Knicks could definitely use his size. They were getting killed on the boards down the stretch. Not to say he's a great rebounder but he'd be better for them down there than Melo.

Furthermore there were a lot of short Carmelo iso possessions so kill that noise acting like they suddenly have so much ball movement Amare would ruin...the shots are just falling that's all.

I'm gonna stay with the idea that this Melo at 4 is a little matchup wrinkle that works against lesser teams but come the playoffs they will need that traditional frontcourt...


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## Hyperion

Bogg said:


> Orlando acquired Arenas in the middle of the '10-'11 season, _before_ the new CBA went into effect. It doesn't matter who the contract was originally signed with, but they had to be on the roster at the time of the CBA being accepted.


 "According to a draft of the rule, a team can use the provision in any off-season, subject to two restrictions: the player must have been signed before July 1, 2011, and must be on the team's current roster." LINK




Dre said:


> I'm rewatching this Nets-Knicks that I missed the finish of last night and the Knicks could definitely use his size. They were getting killed on the boards down the stretch. Not to say he's a great rebounder but he'd be better for them down there than Melo.
> 
> Furthermore there were a lot of short Carmelo iso possessions so kill that noise acting like they suddenly have so much ball movement Amare would ruin...the shots are just falling that's all.
> 
> I'm gonna stay with the idea that this Melo at 4 is a little matchup wrinkle that works against lesser teams but come the playoffs they will need that traditional frontcourt...


The Amare point isn't so much about offense as it is about defense. The Knicks are finally playing defense with athleticism. That means that they will have TWO non-defenders in Amare and Melo when Amare comes back. That's one too many non-defenders.


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## Bogg

Hyperion said:


> "According to a draft of the rule, a team can use the provision in any off-season, subject to two restrictions: the player must have been signed before July 1, 2011, and must be on the team's current roster." LINK


........That's exactly what I said. You skipped over the "must be on the _current_ roster" part, didn't you?


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## Hyperion

Bogg said:


> ........That's exactly what I said. You skipped over the "must be on the _current_ roster" part, didn't you?


.... As in they have to be on the team at the time of amnesty. I.e. they can't amnesty a player on another team as part of a trade or something.


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## XxIrvingxX

Hyperion said:


> The Amare point isn't so much about offense as it is about defense. The Knicks are finally playing defense with athleticism. That means that they will have TWO non-defenders in Amare and Melo when Amare comes back. That's one too many non-defenders.


...so you tell Amare to play some god damn defense. Now this is just me of course going out on a limb and assuming that coaches aren't that stupid.


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## Hyperion

Dude hasn't raised his hands above his head on defense for like seven years.


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## E.H. Munro

Maybe the Knicks should just tell him to take up bowling and shoot for the injured player exception?


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## Bogg

Hyperion said:


> .... As in they have to be on the team at the time of amnesty. I.e. they can't amnesty a player on another team as part of a trade or something.


That's not what it means at all. We know that you can't trade amnesty exceptions like they're draft picks. "Current roster" refers to the roster that was in place at the time the new CBA was accepted. You can't trade for a guy, or have traded for a guy since the new CBA, and later amnesty him.


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## gi0rdun

They should trade Amar'e to the Thunder somehow.


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## Bogg

He hasn't been good in two years and makes $20 million a year. I doubt the Knicks can move Amare in any sort of deal that actually makes them better.


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## Hyperion

Bogg said:


> That's not what it means at all. We know that you can't trade amnesty exceptions like they're draft picks. "Current roster" refers to the roster that was in place at the time the new CBA was accepted. You can't trade for a guy, or have traded for a guy since the new CBA, and later amnesty him.


That was part of the amnesty because half of the teams were under the cap and had no big contracts to amnesty when they agreed to it.


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## Bogg

Hyperion said:


> That was part of the amnesty because half of the teams were under the cap and had no big contracts to amnesty when they agreed to it.



http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q67




> Amnesty is a one-time opportunity for teams to release one player via the waiver process (see question number 63) and remove him from their team salary and luxury tax computations. For a player to be eligible for the Amnesty provision he must be on his team's roster continuously from July 1, 2011 to the date he is amnestied, without any new contract, extension, renegotiation or other amendment to his contract in the meantime. Players who were waived prior to July 1, 2011 and are still receiving guaranteed salary are also eligible.* Teams cannot amnesty players they sign, receive in trade, extend, renegotiate, or otherwise amend after July 1, 2011.*


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## Hyperion

Well, I'll be damned. You were right..... Yoouuuu weeerrreeeee riiiiggggghhhhttttt.....


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