# Is Kyrie Irving a top-5 PG?



## Basel

Would you take him over Steph Curry? Russell Westbrook? Damian Lillard? John Wall? (A healthy) Derrick Rose? Chris Paul?


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## PauloCatarino

Basel said:


> Would you take him over Steph Curry? Russell Westbrook? Damian Lillard? John Wall? (A healthy) Derrick Rose? Chris Paul?


If you were asking solely about the Eastern Confeence, than maybe he would be Top-5...


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## Basel

PauloCatarino said:


> If you were asking solely about the Eastern Confeence, than maybe he would be Top-5...



Think he's better than Kyle Lowry? I wonder what @Porn Player thinks.


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## RollWithEm

I have Kyrie 11th on my list. I would take Russ, DRose, CP3, Steph, Lillard, Lowry, Tony, Conley, Bledsoe, and probably Wall ahead of him. I had him ranked 10th coming into this season. He has fallen a spot since then, in my mind.


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## R-Star

Basel said:


> Think he's better than Kyle Lowry? I wonder what @Porn Player thinks.


Kyle Lowry plays defense and is a willing team player. 

I wouldn't take him over any of the guys in your initial post outside of maaaaaybe Lillard. That's assuming it's time machine Rose and not current day just waiting for something bad to happen Rose.


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## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> I have Kyrie 11th on my list. I would take Russ, DRose, CP3, Steph, Lillard, Lowry, Tony, Conley, Bledsoe, and probably Wall ahead of him. I had him ranked 10th coming into this season. He has fallen a spot since then, in my mind.


Probably Wall? But for sure Bledsoe?

That angers me for some reason.


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## Basel

R-Star said:


> Kyle Lowry plays defense and is a willing team player.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't take him over any of the guys in your initial post outside of maaaaaybe Lillard. That's assuming it's time machine Rose and not current day just waiting for something bad to happen Rose.



Maybe Lillard? Lillard is better than Irving right now and will probably continue to be throughout their careers. 

For what it's worth, all the guys I named in my post are guys I think are better. I think an argument can be made for who is better with some of the other PGs in the league, though.


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## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> Probably Wall? But for sure Bledsoe?
> 
> That angers me for some reason.


In order, I have...

1) Steph
2) Russ
3) Paul
4) Parker
5) Rose
6) Lowry
7) Lillard
8) Conley
9) Bledsoe
10) Wall
11) Kyrie

This has changed slightly from the offseason. Lillard and Wall have moved up a spot, while CP3 has gone down a spot... mostly because of how great Steph (up 2 spots) has been playing.


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## RollWithEm

Basel said:


> Maybe Lillard? Lillard is better than Irving right now and will probably continue to be throughout their careers.
> 
> For what it's worth, all the guys I named in my post are guys I think are better. I think an argument can be made for who is better with some of the other PGs in the league, though.


You didn't mention Lowry, but Lowry >> Lillard.


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## Basel

I completely forgot about TP. Add him to my list.


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## Basel

RollWithEm said:


> You didn't mention Lowry, but Lowry >> Lillard.



I was debating it but yeah, I would take him over Irving right now.


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## R-Star

John Wall is 17 and 10 and actually plays defense. 

Lillard may be the only starting point guard in the league who plays worse defense than Kyrie. 

And Bledsoe? Why? 

You change your list, and you change it now.


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## R-Star

Tony Parker has played like 7 games this season. He's an asshole and he's wrecking my fantasy league team.


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## Basel

R-Star said:


> Tony Parker has played like 7 games this season. He's an asshole and he's wrecking my fantasy league team.



Mine as well.


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## R-Star

Ty Lawson deserves some god damn respect as well. 


You people sicken me.


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## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> Ty Lawson deserves some god damn respect as well.
> 
> 
> You people sicken me.


I have him 12.


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## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> I have him 12.


You don't value assists. 

You aren't a team player.


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## UD40

RollWithEm said:


> 1) Steph
> 2) Russ
> 3) Paul
> 4) Parker
> 5) Rose
> 6) Lowry
> 7) Lillard
> 8) Conley
> 9) Bledsoe
> 10) Wall
> 11) Kyrie


Not the order I'd have, but these would be guys I'd take over Kyrie. I probably wouldn't take him over Kyrie, but Kemba has been making nice strides this year.


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## R-Star

UD40 said:


> Not the order I'd have, but these would be guys I'd take over Kyrie. I probably wouldn't take him over Kyrie, but Kemba has been making nice strides this year.


This man values team play.


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## Basel

R-Star said:


> Ty Lawson deserves some god damn respect as well.
> 
> 
> You people sicken me.



Guy has been underrated his entire career.


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## 29380

R-Star said:


> And Bledsoe? Why?


One of the best if not the best defensive PG in the league that is great off the dribble and built like a tank.



Sent from my SCH-I500 using VerticalSports.Com App


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## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> John Wall is 17 and 10 and actually plays defense.
> 
> And Bledsoe? Why?
> 
> You change your list, and you change it now.


Bledsoe is averaging 17-5-6-1.5 with 3 TOs in 33 min on 44-31-84 shooting percentages.

Wall is at 17-4-10-2.1 with 3.7 TOs in 36 min on 46-29-76 percentages.

Not a whole bunch of difference in those offensive stats. However, defensively Bledsoe is a stopper who can defend 2 positions with ease. Wall is a slightly above average defender who gambles a bit too much for my taste. 

Slight edge Bledsoe. Again, this is very close.


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## Adam

RollWithEm said:


> In order, I have...
> 
> 1) Steph
> 2) Russ
> 3) Paul
> 4) Parker
> 5) Rose
> 6) Lowry
> 7) Lillard
> 8) Conley
> 9) Bledsoe
> 10) Wall
> 11) Kyrie
> 
> This has changed slightly from the offseason. Lillard and Wall have moved up a spot, while CP3 has gone down a spot... mostly because of how great Steph (up 2 spots) has been playing.


How is Rose 5th? Is that a joke?


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## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> Bledsoe is averaging 17-5-6-1.5 with 3 TOs in 33 min on 44-31-84 shooting percentages.
> 
> Wall is at 17-4-10-2.1 with 3.7 TOs in 36 min on 46-29-76 percentages.
> 
> Not a whole bunch of difference in those offensive stats. However, defensively Bledsoe is a stopper who can defend 2 positions with ease. Wall is a slightly above average defender who gambles a bit too much for my taste.
> 
> Slight edge Bledsoe. Again, this is very close.


How is 4 more assists a game not much difference though?


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## R-Star

Coach Fish said:


> One of the best if not the best defensive PG in the league that is great off the dribble and built like a tank.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I500 using VerticalSports.Com App


People selectively respect defense on this forum. 

Lillard plays Steve Nash defense and just gets a pass for it?


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## yodurk

Adam said:


> How is Rose 5th? Is that a joke?


I am a Bulls fan and can confidently state Rose hasn't been a top 10 PG this year as a whole, let alone top 5. Can he get back to that level, sure...but he isn't there now. That being said, he's had his moments of looking like a Top 5 PG at times.

As for Kyrie, pretty much what I said about Rose applies to him. Some nights he plays like a Top 5 PG but taking the season as a whole he hasn't been Top 5.

Nobody should take these comments personally...the NBA PG position is ridiculously stacked these days. The gap between #1 and #10 is not that big and you can argue these rankings shift weekly. You know the league is stacked with PGs when Ty Lawson & Jeff Teague aren't cracking people's top 10 lists and those guys are having outstanding seasons.


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## Adam

yodurk said:


> I am a Bulls fan and can confidently state Rose hasn't been a top 10 PG this year as a whole, let alone top 5. Can he get back to that level, sure...but he isn't there now. That being said, he's had his moments of looking like a Top 5 PG at times.
> 
> As for Kyrie, pretty much what I said about Rose applies to him. Some nights he plays like a Top 5 PG but taking the season as a whole he hasn't been Top 5.
> 
> Nobody should take these comments personally...the NBA PG position is ridiculously stacked these days. The gap between #1 and #10 is not that big and you can argue these rankings shift weekly.


True. The position is so deep nobody in this thread has even mentioned Jeff Teague and he's been a beast.


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## PauloCatarino

Adam said:


> True. The position is so deep nobody in this thread has even mentioned Jeff Teague and he's been a beast.


Teague was one of the guys i had in mind when i said Kyrie woud *probably * be Top-5 in the East alone.


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## PauloCatarino

R-Star said:


> Kyle Lowry plays defense and is a willing team player.
> 
> I wouldn't take him over any of the guys in your initial post *outside of maaaaaybe Lillard.* That's assuming it's time machine Rose and not current day just waiting for something bad to happen Rose.


Don't diss the guy that scored 16 points in the final 5 minutes 12 seconds against the Lakers. No one does that.


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## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> How is 4 more assists a game not much difference though?


Obviously I'm not a team player.


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## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> Obviously I'm not a team player.


Well honestly. I'm not sure how you can say 4 assists is negligible when comparing stats.


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## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> Well honestly. I'm not sure how you can say 4 assists is negligible when comparing stats.


I wouldn't say it's negligible. As far as passing goes, Wall is marginally the better passer. And while it's significant enough to mention, that Washington offense is built around Wall penetrating and dishing to shooters. The offense in Phoenix, by contrast, tries to get shots up early in the shot clock and tries to isolate mismatches fairly often when early opportunities don't present themselves. Wall is also surrounded by better finishers more consistently. 

I believe that any advantage Wall has over Bledsoe in the passing department is more than compensated for by Bledsoe's advantage defensively.


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## Porn Player

Basel said:


> Think he's better than Kyle Lowry? I wonder what @Porn Player thinks.


Lowry is Top 7 or 8 overall. 

Based on this season alone, he is in the discussion with the Top 3 in my opinion, but his body of work simply hasn't touched what the guys above him have accomplished over numerous seasons.

Oh and Kyrie isn't even Top 10. For all of his talent (and he has that by the bucket load), he is not a player that will win you basketball games. And the game is played to be won.


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## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> I wouldn't say it's negligible. As far as passing goes, Wall is marginally the better passer. And while it's significant enough to mention, that Washington offense is built around Wall penetrating and dishing to shooters. The offense in Phoenix, by contrast, tries to get shots up early in the shot clock and tries to isolate mismatches fairly often when early opportunities don't present themselves. Wall is also surrounded by better finishers more consistently.
> 
> I believe that any advantage Wall has over Bledsoe in the passing department is more than compensated for by Bledsoe's advantage defensively.


He's not marginally better in the passing department, he's a better passer by a large margin. He's leading the league in assists. He is also almost an entire point above Bledsoe as far as AST/TO per game. 

I also disagree completely with saying assists go up with the quality of finishers around you. I said the same thing when Rondo was traded. Everyone was expecting his assists to go up, and they did the exact opposite just as I predicted. When you have players around you that can't create their own shots, they rely on you to get them the ball. If anything, Bledsoe is in a better situation to get assists as far as that aspect. As far as the offensive scheme and pace, Steve Nash led the league in assists quite often by running a similar high tempo offense like Phoenix is currently running. 

John Wall gets underrated on this board while Bledsoe gets overrated. How does it make sense to pin Wall because Bledsoe is a better defender, and then not even mention defense when ranking someone like Lillard?

Doesn't add up.


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## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> He's not marginally better in the passing department, he's a better passer by a large margin. He's leading the league in assists. He is also almost an entire point above Bledsoe as far as AST/TO per game.


Wait, I thought you were initially being sarcastic about the assists thing. Are you one of those people who thinks assists are a key indicator in passing ability? I expected more than that from you. 



> I also disagree completely with saying assists go up with the quality of finishers around you. I said the same thing when Rondo was traded. Everyone was expecting his assists to go up, and they did the exact opposite just as I predicted. When you have players around you that can't create their own shots, they rely on you to get them the ball. If anything, Bledsoe is in a better situation to get assists as far as that aspect. As far as the offensive scheme and pace, Steve Nash led the league in assists quite often by running a similar high tempo offense like Phoenix is currently running.


This reads like it was written by a guy who hasn't watched many of these teams' games. Pay close attention to the Phoenix offense next time you watch them. Count how many shots go up after one or fewer passes and with no dribble penetration whatsoever. 

Furthermore, count the number of possessions Bledsoe doesn't even touch the ball when he's on the floor because Goran Dragic, Gerald Green, Isiah Thomas, or Markieff Morris shoots early in the clock. 

On the opposite end of that spectrum, John Wall has the ball in his hands more than any other player in the NBA. He averages 8.5 minutes per game with the ball in his hands (http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/possessions/?sort=TOP&dir=1). Bledsoe is 34th in that department at only 5.0 minutes per game. You cannot get assists without having the ball. In fact, Bledsoe actually averages more assists per minute of possession than does Wall.



> John Wall gets underrated on this board while Bledsoe gets overrated. How does it make sense to pin Wall because Bledsoe is a better defender, and then not even mention defense when ranking someone like Lillard?
> 
> Doesn't add up.


Notice that I ranked Lowry ahead of Lillard because of his defense.


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## hroz

Kyrie is worse than those listed below
Rose
Lowry
Wall
Curry
Lillard
Conley
Paul
Parker
Dragic
Bledsoe
Westbrook
Lawson

Which at best makes him the 13th best,

These guys also have legitimate claims to being better.
Holiday
Rondo
Walker
Knight
Teague

So he is 13th to 18th range imo.


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## R-Star

Sorry, but I'm not going to listend to garbage like "Assists numbers don't tell you if someone is a good passer or not."

If you're trying to tell me you replace Wall with Bledsoe on the Wizards and he leads the league in assists you're out of your ****ing mind.


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## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> Sorry, but I'm not going to listend to garbage like "Assists numbers don't tell you if someone is a good passer or not."


I still can't tell if I'm being trolled. You have been known to mask your sarcasm at times.



> If you're trying to tell me you replace Wall with Bledsoe on the Wizards and he leads the league in assists you're out of your ****ing mind.


I am not trying to tell you that. I'm merely saying that I value Bledsoe's defensive advantage over Wall more than I value Wall's passing advantage over Bledsoe. Stated differently, I believe that the extent to which Wall impacts a game more with his passing than does Bledsoe with his pales in comparison to the extent to which Bledsoe impacts a game with his disruptive defense. Stated maybe even clearer... 

Wall's passing > Bledsoe's passing
Bledsoe's defense >> Wall's defense

Again, though, keep in mind that I think this comparison is a very close one. Bledsoe just edges out Wall.


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## Basel

Am I the only one who feels John Wall is an above average defender?


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## RollWithEm

Basel said:


> Am I the only one who feels John Wall is an above average defender?


No. I think he's above average at his position FOR SURE. I simply think that Bledsoe is an elite PG defender and also a very good SG defender.


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## hobojoe

R-Star said:


> Sorry, but I'm not going to listend to garbage like "Assists numbers don't tell you if someone is a good passer or not."
> 
> If you're trying to tell me you replace Wall with Bledsoe on the Wizards and he leads the league in assists you're out of your ****ing mind.


First let me say I don't think Bledsoe is a better passer than Wall and I think it's absurd that RWE doesn't have Wall in his top 10. With that said, the fact that Bledsoe starts at SG and plays with another really good PG is a legitimate explanation of the assist disparity. Again, I'm not saying if you switch their situations Bledsoe would lead the league in assists, but I don't think 7-8 apg is out of the question and I do think Wall's assists would go down if he was starting next to Goran Dragic (or another legit PG rather than a pure SG like Beal). 

To answer the original question, Irving is not a top 5 PG in the league and it's not even debatable. A better question is whether he's top 5 in the East. This year, I think he's been comparable to the Brandon Knights, Kemba Walkers and Jeff Teagues of the world, not the elite level guys.


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## RollWithEm

hobojoe said:


> I think it's absurd that RWE doesn't have Wall in his top 10.


I actually do. He's 10th.


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## hobojoe

RollWithEm said:


> I actually do. He's 10th.


Thought you had him 11th, my bad. Still think 10th is too low.


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## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> I still can't tell if I'm being trolled. You have been known to mask your sarcasm at times.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not trying to tell you that. I'm merely saying that I value Bledsoe's defensive advantage over Wall more than I value Wall's passing advantage over Bledsoe. Stated differently, I believe that the extent to which Wall impacts a game more with his passing than does Bledsoe with his pales in comparison to the extent to which Bledsoe impacts a game with his disruptive defense. Stated maybe even clearer...
> 
> Wall's passing > Bledsoe's passing
> Bledsoe's defense >> Wall's defense
> 
> Again, though, keep in mind that I think this comparison is a very close one. Bledsoe just edges out Wall.


And again, if defense matters so much when comparing these two, why does it not matter for Damian Lillard who only averages a few more points a game while playing 0 defense?


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## R-Star

hobojoe said:


> First let me say I don't think Bledsoe is a better passer than Wall and I think it's absurd that RWE doesn't have Wall in his top 10. With that said, the fact that Bledsoe starts at SG and plays with another really good PG is a legitimate explanation of the assist disparity. Again, I'm not saying if you switch their situations Bledsoe would lead the league in assists, but I don't think 7-8 apg is out of the question and I do think Wall's assists would go down if he was starting next to Goran Dragic (or another legit PG rather than a pure SG like Beal).
> 
> To answer the original question, Irving is not a top 5 PG in the league and it's not even debatable. A better question is whether he's top 5 in the East. This year, I think he's been comparable to the Brandon Knights, Kemba Walkers and Jeff Teagues of the world, not the elite level guys.


No, I get that Phoenix runs its 2 point guard system. I just think it's odd that we're playing the "Well if he was in a different system he'd average more assists." Great. And I guess if Wall changed places and wasn't passing the ball as much he'd average more points. 

It's great to play the hypothetical, but at the end of the day there is absolutely no argument for Bledsoe over Wall.


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## hobojoe

R-Star said:


> It's great to play the hypothetical, but at the end of the day there is absolutely no argument for Bledsoe over Wall.


I agree, and I like Bledsoe.


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## BlakeJesus

RollWithEm said:


> In order, I have...
> 
> 1) Steph
> 2) Russ
> 3) Paul
> 4) Parker
> 5) Rose
> 6) Lowry
> 7) Lillard
> 8) Conley
> 9) Bledsoe
> 10) Wall
> 11) Kyrie
> 
> This has changed slightly from the offseason. Lillard and Wall have moved up a spot, while CP3 has gone down a spot... mostly because of how great Steph (up 2 spots) has been playing.


Wall at 10, behind Bledsoe? I'm with @R-Star here, definitely disagree.


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## R-Star

hobojoe said:


> I agree, and I like Bledsoe.


As do I. R-Star loves defense.


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## Basel

RollWithEm said:


> No. I think he's above average at his position FOR SURE. I simply think that Bledsoe is an elite PG defender and also a very good SG defender.



Just making sure we're on the same page here. 

Irving has so much talent. Hope he finds how to use it all soon. His scoring is going nowhere. But be has the tools to work on the other parts.


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## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> And again, if defense matters so much when comparing these two, why does it not matter for Damian Lillard who only averages a few more points a game while playing 0 defense?


It absolutely does matter for Lillard. That's why I only have him at #7 . If this list was based on offense alone, he'd be top 4.


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## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> It absolutely does matter for Lillard. That's why I only have him at #7 . If this list was based on offense alone, he'd be top 4.


Seems odd to me. The guy is the worst starting point guard in the league when it comes to defense. To have him at 7 and then rank Bledsoe above Wall _because_ of defense boggles the mind. 

Anyways, I disagree. Although I'm sure many would disagree with my list as well. Can't please everyone.


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## Basel

R-Star said:


> Seems odd to me. The guy is the worst starting point guard in the league when it comes to defense. To have him at 7 and then rank Bledsoe above Wall _because_ of defense boggles the mind.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyways, I disagree. Although I'm sure many would disagree with my list as well. Can't please everyone.



Have you not seen any of the Lakers' starting point guards this year? They don't even play defense (though Price IS better than Lin).


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## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> Seems odd to me. The guy is the worst starting point guard in the league when it comes to defense. To have him at 7 and then rank Bledsoe above Wall _because_ of defense boggles the mind.
> 
> Anyways, I disagree. Although I'm sure many would disagree with my list as well. Can't please everyone.


I understand what you're saying. I am just one of those guys that believe clutch play is really a thing to be valued. He's a top 5 clutch guard in the league right now. My instinct is to put him 4th overall on this list based on that along with his impressive playoff showing against a solid defender like Beverly last year. His atrocious defense knocks him down 3 spots in my mind.


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## R-Star

Basel said:


> Have you not seen any of the Lakers' starting point guards this year? They don't even play defense (though Price IS better than Lin).


The Lakers don't count. They're irrelevant to the season. 

A team who doesn't have an actual NBA starting point guard is exempt from discussion in this matter.


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## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> I understand what you're saying. I am just one of those guys that believe clutch play is really a thing to be valued. He's a top 5 clutch guard in the league right now. My instinct is to put him 4th overall on this list based on that along with his impressive playoff showing against a solid defender like Beverly last year. His atrocious defense knocks him down 3 spots in my mind.


Then I assume you value Reggie Miller highly.


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## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> Then I assume you value Reggie Miller highly.


I was a big fan of Reggie's, yes. I probably rate guys like Ray Allen, Jerry West, Sam Jones, and Larry Bird (and all the way down to guys like Robert Horry and Sam Perkins) higher than most basketball fans because I appreciate clutch play.


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## Basel

R-Star said:


> The Lakers don't count. They're irrelevant to the season.
> 
> 
> 
> A team who doesn't have an actual NBA starting point guard is exempt from discussion in this matter.



Take it back.


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## Basel

RollWithEm said:


> I was a big fan of Reggie's, yes. I probably rate guys like Ray Allen, Jerry West, Sam Jones, and Larry Bird (and all the way down to guys like Robert Horry and Sam Perkins) higher than most basketball fans because I appreciate clutch play.



Robert Horry >>>


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## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> Then I assume you value Reggie Miller highly.


While this is true, I still also value defense. That's why I once got into a big argument on this site over whether I would prefer Reggie Miller or Sidney Moncrief in their respective primes. They are the ultimate clutch vs. defense debate players.


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## R-Star

Basel said:


> Take it back.


I'm not gonna...


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## Basel

R-Star said:


> I'm not gonna...



I hope the Pacers lose to the Warriors tonight.


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## R-Star

Basel said:


> I hope the Pacers lose to the Warriors tonight.


Me too coincidentally.


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## Porn Player

I think it's difficult to judge Bledsoe against the rest of the leagues PGs. He plays in such a strange system that his ability to control a team is often lost in the tiny fast paced basketball Phoenix like to exhibit. 

I think he has the tools to be a great PG in this league, but for right now, I think Wall has achieved that status and therefore gets the nod.


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## R-Star

Porn Player said:


> I think it's difficult to judge Bledsoe against the rest of the leagues PGs. He plays in such a strange system that his ability to control a team is often lost in the tiny fast paced basketball Phoenix like to exhibit.
> 
> I think he has the tools to be a great PG in this league, but for right now, I think Wall has achieved that status and therefore gets the nod.


Bledsoe build wise actually reminds me a lot of Lowry.


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## Porn Player

R-Star said:


> Bledsoe build wise actually reminds me a lot of Lowry.


Yeah, I would agree, they both have that 'bulldog' type thick build. 

I'd honestly love to see Bledsoe get the reigns of a team and push them into contention, ala Lowry.


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## Basel

Maybe Irving read this thread. He's going off right now.


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## RollWithEm

Basel said:


> Maybe Irving read this thread. He's going off right now.


No way he could overcome Josh Smith going 7-out-of-10 from the field, though.


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