# A little perspective for the bashers



## Bball4me (Dec 4, 2003)

NBA 03-04 MyTendex Player Cumulative Rankings 

Cumulative Rankings

Rankings (min 19 games) Rankings (per 48)
 Player Team MyTend Player Team MyTend
1) garnett,kevin Min 36.51 1) garnett,kevin Min 53.08
2) duncan,tim San 34.83 2) duncan,tim San 48.06
3) kidd,jason NJN 34.36 3) kidd,jason NJN 44.42
4) pierce,paul Bos 34.12 4) pierce,paul Bos 42.16
5) miller,brad Sac 31.72 5) arroyo,carlos Uta 41.57
6) kirilenko,andrei Uta 30.90 6) miller,brad Sac 41.48
7) iverson,allen Phi 30.55 7) kirilenko,andrei Uta 41.45
8) o'neal,shaquille LAL 30.38 8) o'neal,shaquille LAL 40.64
9) randolph,zach Por 30.17 9) ming,yao Hou 38.02
10) davis,baron NOr 29.79 10) artest,ron Ind 37.30
11) james,lebron Cle 29.54 11) miller,andre Den 37.17
12) artest,ron Ind 28.70 12) carter,vince Tor 36.58
13) carter,vince Tor 28.50 13) randolph,zach Por 36.53
14) mcgrady,tracy Orl 28.18 14) cassell,sam Min 36.18
15) marbury,stephon Pho 28.01 15) billups,chauncey Det 36.13
16) billups,chauncey Det 27.76 16) ginobili,emanuel San 35.95
17) bryant,kobe LAL 27.42 17) claxton,speedy GSW 35.77
18) cassell,sam Min 26.79 18) bryant,kobe LAL 35.75
19) ming,yao Hou 26.75 19) james,lebron Cle 35.44
20) o'neal,jermaine Ind 26.26 20) davis,baron NOr 35.43


Centers
Rankings (min 19 games) Rankings (per 48)
Player Team MyTend Player Team Tend/48
1) miller,brad Sac 31.72 1) miller,brad Sac 41.48
2) o'neal,shaquille LAL 30.38 2) o'neal,shaquille LAL 40.64
3) ming,yao Hou 26.75 3) ming,yao Hou 38.02
4) nesterovic,rados San 20.84 4) nesterovic,rados San 33.53
5) ilgauskas,zydrun Cle 19.62 5) camby,marcus Den 32.69
6) dampier,erick GSW 19.60 6) ilgauskas,zydrun Cle 30.85
7) divac,vlade Sac 18.26 7) foster,jeff Ind 30.46
8) camby,marcus Den 17.61 8) divac,vlade Sac 30.43
9) ostertag,greg Uta 17.56 9) dampier,erick GSW 29.83
10) curry,eddy Chi 17.55 10) brown,kwame Was 29.62
11) cato,kelvin Hou 17.41 11) cato,kelvin Hou 29.06
12) magloire,jamaal NOr 16.81 12) curry,eddy Chi 28.40
13) ratliff,theo Atl 15.54  13) ostertag,greg Uta 27.30
14) brown,kwame Was 15.41 14) mutombo,dikembe NYK 26.52
15) foster,jeff Ind 14.66 15) coleman,derrick Phi 25.52
16) coleman,derrick Phi 14.28 16) wright,lorenzen Mem 24.83
17) collins,jason NJN 14.21 17) ratliff,theo Atl 24.80
18) mutombo,dikembe NYK 13.60 18) magloire,jamaal NOr 24.62
19) okur,mehmet Det 13.57 19) collins,jason NJN 23.57
20) wright,lorenzen Mem 12.69 20) davis,dale Por 20.86
** Avg for Position = 11.63.


Power Forwards
Rankings (min 19 games) Rankings (per 48)
Player Team MyTend Player Team Tend/48
1) duncan,tim San 34.83 1) duncan,tim San 48.06
2) randolph,zach Por 30.17 2) randolph,zach Por 36.53
3) o'neal,jermaine Ind 26.26 3) gasol,pau Mem 35.25
4) martin,kenyon NJN 25.70 4) martin,kenyon NJN 34.99
5) abdur-rahim,shar Atl 25.33 5) o'neal,jermaine Ind 34.73
6) gasol,pau Mem 23.66 6) abdur-rahim,shar Atl 33.83
7) malone,karl LAL 22.40 7) malone,karl LAL 33.38
8) wallace,ben Det 21.85 8) boozer,carlos Cle 29.88
9) boozer,carlos Cle 21.48 9) laettner,christi Was 29.15
10) walker,antoine Dal 19.54 10) taylor,maurice Hou 28.26
11) thomas,kenny Phi 18.64 11) harrington,al Ind 28.16
12) nowitzki,dirk Dal 18.15 12) thomas,kenny Phi 27.64
13) harrington,al Ind 18.11 13) wilcox,chris LAC 26.33
14) brown,p.j. NOr 17.29 14) wallace,ben Det 26.32
15) davis,antonio chi 17.07 15) baker,vin Bos 25.51
16) hilario,nene Den 16.84 16) thomas,etan Was 25.22
17) thomas,kurt NYK 16.55 17) hilario,nene Den 24.92
18) grant,brian Mia 16.02 18) walker,antoine Dal 24.75
19) taylor,maurice Hou 15.84 19) grant,brian Mia 24.73
20) robinson,cliff GSW 15.79 20) davis,antonio chi 23.89
** Avg for Position = 12.30.


Small Forwards
Rankings (min 19 games) Rankings (per 48)
Player Team MyTend Player Team Tend/48
1) garnett,kevin Min 36.51 1) garnett,kevin Min 53.08
2) kirilenko,andrei Uta 30.90 2) kirilenko,andrei Uta 41.45
3) artest,ron Ind 28.70 3) artest,ron Ind 37.30
4) carter,vince Tor 28.50 4) carter,vince Tor 36.58
5) marion,shawn Pho 25.59 5) maggette,corey LAC 34.96
6) maggette,corey LAC 24.71 6) george,devean LAL 33.00
7) odom,lamar Mia 23.99 7) miles,darius Cle 32.00
8) stojakovic,predr Sac 23.59 8) harpring,matt Uta 30.84
9) harpring,matt Uta 22.99 9) marion,shawn Pho 30.80
10) jefferson,richar NJN 22.64 10) anthony,carmelo Den 30.62
11) anthony,carmelo Den 22.62 11) odom,lamar Mia 30.30
12) kukoc,toni Mil 21.29 12) mason,desmond Mil 29.13
13) lewis,rashard  Sea 20.61 13) jefferson,richar NJN 28.95
14) george,devean LAL 20.06 14) stojakovic,predr Sac 28.56
15) prince,tayshaun Det 19.62 15) jamison,antawn Dal 28.40
16) wallace,rasheed Por 19.36 16) mckie,aaron Phi 27.51
17) mason,desmond Mil 18.52 17) lewis,rashard Sea 26.60
18) vanhorn,keith NYK 18.04 18) miller,mike Mem 26.57
19) mckie,aaron Phi 17.78 19) prince,tayshaun Det 26.44
20) miles,darius Cle 17.53 20) battier,shane Mem 25.79
** Avg for Position = 11.14.


Shooting Guards
Rankings (min 19 games) Rankings (per 48)
Player Team MyTend Player Team Tend/48
1) pierce,paul Bos 34.12 1) pierce,paul Bos 42.16
2) iverson,allen Phi 30.55 2) ginobili,emanuel San 35.95
3) mcgrady,tracy Orl 28.18 3) bryant,kobe LAL 35.75
4) bryant,kobe LAL 27.42 4) mcgrady,tracy Orl 34.79 
5) ginobili,emanuel San 25.33 5) iverson,allen Phi 33.96
6) sprewell,latrell Min 24.37 6) barry,brent Sea 31.11
7) redd,michael Mil 23.60 7) sprewell,latrell Min 30.61
8) mobley,cuttino Hou 23.58 8) redd,michael Mil 29.83
9) hamilton,richard Det 21.64 9) hamilton,richard Det 29.03
10) houston,allan NYK 21.36 10) mobley,cuttino Hou 28.57
11) richardson,jason GSW 21.14 11) richardson,jason GSW 28.06
12) barry,brent Sea 20.98 12) miller,reggie Ind 27.77
13) finley,michael Dal 20.62 13) houston,allan NYK 27.17
14) crawford,jamal Chi 18.17 14) wells,bonzi mem 26.35
15) miller,reggie Ind 17.00 15) finley,michael Dal 25.54
16) richardson,quent LAC 16.65 16) crawford,jamal Chi 25.11
17) jones,eddie Mia 16.57 17) christie,doug Sac 24.31
18) kittles,kerry NJN 16.56 18) wesley,david NOr 23.63
19) wesley,david NOr 16.33 19) stevenson,deshaw Uta 23.49
20) rose,jalen tor 15.67 20) lenard,voshon Den 23.07
** Avg for Position = 11.23.


Point Guards
Rankings (min 19 games) Rankings (per 48)
Player Team MyTend Player Team Tend/48
1) kidd,jason NJN 34.36 1) kidd,jason NJN 44.42
2) davis,baron NOr 29.79 2) arroyo,carlos Uta 41.57
3) james,lebron Cle 29.54 3) miller,andre Den 37.17
4) marbury,stephon Pho 28.01 4) cassell,sam Min 36.18
5) billups,chauncey Det 27.76 5) billups,chauncey Det 36.13
6) cassell,sam Min 26.79 6) claxton,speedy GSW 35.77
7) miller,andre Den 25.20 7) james,lebron Cle 35.44 
8) arroyo,carlos Uta 25.10 8) davis,baron NOr 35.43
9) parker,tony San 22.97 9) watson,earl Mem 33.39
10) nash,steve Dal 22.87 10) ward,charlie NYK 33.14
11) payton,gary LAL 22.49 11) nash,steve Dal 33.00
12) bibby,mike Sac 22.25 12) payton,gary  LAL 32.59
13) francis,steve Hou 22.11 13) marbury,stephon Pho 32.31
14) terry,jason Atl 21.35 14) boykins,earl Den 31.89
15) wade,dwyane Mia 20.39 15) parker,tony San 31.88
16) snow,eric Phi 19.92 16) bibby,mike Sac 31.49
17) murray,ronald Sea 18.61 17) williams,jason Mem 29.47
18) williams,jason Mem 17.55 18) murray,ronald Sea 29.03
19) james,mike Bos 17.54 19) ford,t.j. Mil 28.60
20) claxton,speedy GSW 17.32 20) jackson,bobby Sac 28.58
** Avg for Position = 11.06.


Note: the current Rankings formula is:
(PTS - FGmsd - (FTmsd/2) + 1.25*st + 1.25*as + bl
+ reb - 1.25*to - tc - 2*ff - pf/2) /
GamesPlayed)



As you see, not only does Pierce have the best tendex ratings among two guards, both regular and per 48 minutes, he also has the fourth best among all players, both regular and per 48 minutes.

The guy isn't perfect, but he sure doesn't deserve the treatment he's getting on this board.


----------



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bball4me</b>!
> NBA 03-04 MyTendex Player Cumulative Rankings
> 
> 
> ...


No one is blaming Pierce, I mean look at my post I just praised him and Walter, they are our franchise players...they need more time to shoot a worser %....

Go Paul, you MVP, who the **** is KG? TD?


----------



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Oh, btw here's another nice number

.471

Note the current winning formula is:

16 divded by the number of games played (in this case 34).

so 

16/34=.471


You see those 3 digits that are under .500? Yeah well those three digits are that blame Pierce, nothing else.


----------



## Bball4me (Dec 4, 2003)

2003-04 Regular Season Efficiency Rating

Efficiency Formula: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G 
Player G EFF 
1. Kevin Garnett (Minnesota Timberwolves) 30 33.67 
2. Tim Duncan (San Antonio Spurs) 28 27.29 
3. Brad Miller (Sacramento Kings) 29 24.52 
4. Zach Randolph (Portland Trail Blazers) 30 24.40 
5. Shaquille O'Neal (Los Angeles Lakers) 26 24.15 
6. Shareef Abdur-Rahim (Atlanta Hawks) 33 23.27 
7. Predrag Stojakovic (Sacramento Kings) 28 23.14 
8. Andrei Kirilenko (Utah Jazz) 31 22.81 
9. Shawn Marion (Phoenix Suns) 30 22.53 
10. Paul Pierce (Boston Celtics) 33 22.52 
11. Tracy McGrady (Orlando Magic) 31 22.26 
12. Jermaine O'Neal (Indiana Pacers) 32 22.09 
13. Jason Kidd (New Jersey Nets) 30 21.40 
14. Kenyon Martin (New Jersey Nets) 26 21.31 
15. Sam Cassell (Minnesota Timberwolves) 30 21.07


----------



## KokoTheMonkey (Aug 4, 2003)

> As you see, not only does Pierce have the best tendex ratings among two guards, both regular and per 48 minutes, he also has the fourth best among all players, both regular and per 48 minutes.


Not to insult your point, but just how does the Tendex ratings prove anything? Anybody could number crunch and come up with an equation. Basically, I'm just trying to say that Tendex ratings or the Efficiency rating will never be completely accurate. These equations only mean that Pierce has some damn good stats.


----------



## Bball4me (Dec 4, 2003)

The game can not be won or lost by one man.
Just ask Tracy McGrady.
Or ask Kobe Bryant last year when his team was losing despite the fact he was going for 40 points every night.


[strike]I haven't read this board long, but from what I have read the next intelligent thing you write will be the first.[/strike]

Welcome. Post as you please, but do remember that insults are unacceptable. ---agoo


----------



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bball4me</b>!
> The game can not be won or lost by one man.
> Just ask Tracy McGrady.
> Or ask Kobe Bryant last year when his team was losing despite the fact he was going for 40 points every night.
> ...


This is basketball, one man can win or lose a game. Jason Kidd has done it. All you have to do in basketball is have one great player, followed by some role players, and he'll turn the team around.

Maybe its just me, but after actually being a competitive team the last two season I want this team to develop on that, not blow it all up. Now its up to Pierce to lead this team to victory, not humiliation.


----------



## goNBAjayhawks (May 3, 2003)

Then show him some support damnit.


----------



## theBirdman (Jun 20, 2003)

This is turning into another I love/hate Pierce thread! It wont take long before this gets shut down!

All I want to say is that I dont care about Paul`s stats! He can average 30/10/10 but unless we play attractive basketball and actually win I dont care!

This team is not a platform for Mr.Pierce to be the leading actor every day in a crapy play! I want to see a great play every day and I dont care who the leading actor is! 

This is about the Boston Celtics, not Paul Pierce! All I want is to see this team play great basketball and eventually turn into a contender, with or without Mr.Pierce!


----------



## Bball4me (Dec 4, 2003)

> This is about the Boston Celtics, not Paul Pierce! All I want is to see this team play great basketball and eventually turn into a contender, with or without Mr.Pierce!


That's exactly the point.
You want the same results we had the last two seasons even though we don't have the same talent. What we have surrounding Pierce right now is a lot of young players with potential and a over payed veteran that is used inconsistently on offense and can be a liability on defense. The main player in the big trade isn't even suiting up.
We have tried to completely overhaul our offense.
As a result, Pierce is playing fewer minutes and taking fewer shots. He's trying to help the team in other ways, by rebounding and setting up his teammates. It seems that goes unappreciated, which is mind boggling to me in a city like Boston that is supposed to appreciate the blue collar workers.
This is Ainge's plan, to be more of a team and less star dominate.
However, unlike some on this board, Ainge knows this isn't going to happen overnight. He doesn't expect it to come together this year. He's asked the players on this team to be patient. He's already told the media he plans to be patient with the coaching.
So now it's the fans turn. 
So far all I see here is the fans turning on the only player they have that's worth a damn right now for things that are beyond his control.


----------



## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>goNBAjayhawks</b>!
> Then show him some support damnit.








ALLeLuiAh. AMEN to that, thank you and good night.


----------



## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Pierce is playing well, but he has nothing around him and he's not the type of guy who has the game to carry a team. Pierce works best coming off picks and screens and shooting jumpers. He can't do that when he's getting triple teamed before he even has the ball because the other guys on the floor are inept, and that's why he's getting into trouble right now. I agree that its not Paul's fault because he didn't put this sad show together. However, he damn sure isn't helping when he puts his head down and just drives into the center of the defense where all five men are collapsing to him.


----------



## theBirdman (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Bball4me</b>!
> That's exactly the point.
> You want the same results we had the last two seasons even though we don't have the same talent. What we have surrounding Pierce right now is a lot of young players with potential and a over payed veteran that is used inconsistently on offense and can be a liability on defense. The main player in the big trade isn't even suiting up.


I dont want the same results we had last two seasons. I dont care if we dont get into the second round or eastern finals. I want this team to win a championship in the future. I can live with us missing the playoffs. That is not the point! 
I agree with you that we should be patient. And talking about talent: I believe we have the most talented team in the last 8 years! They just need some more time to develop!
So the problem isnt our record, cause I dont really care about that. It is the way we play! And it is the way Pierce plays!

This is not the running game we should supposedly be playing this year. Yes, I blame Obie for that (well I dont blame him, cause it is really not his fault that he doesnt know how to run it) that is why he needs to be replaced by someone who knows and can implement the running game! But Pierce is the player who is the worst in this system (when we actually play it). He just doesnt run! That is why fans are complaining! 

If we really want to implement running game, then Obie has to go and Pierce will have to adjust his game! For the sake of the team! He will have to realize that he doesnt have to do everything on this team (although you say that he is the only one that is worth something) and that we have a few other players that can actually play some basketball. 
But Pierce knows that he is the best in half court game that is why he strolls up and down the court instead of runs! An untill he he realises that for the sake of the team he needs to play differently and with that have worse personal stats (cause now every offense runs through him), fans wont be happy. It is not good enough just to put up great numbers every night when he could do more for this team by playing different type of basketball. Of course, Obie is the one to blame, because that is the way he wants us to play but some blame lies also on Pierce.
And Pierce (like you said being the only star on this team and even calling it his team) has to take the heat when we are playing poorly! And especially when he plays poorly!

But I expect a lot of this will go away when we get a new coach and we start to play a different system. Although I am worried cause it looks like Pierce isnt really a player for the running game and it is going to be interesting to see if he can actually play a more uptempo basketball.


----------



## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Take notes kiddies: YOU CAN'T RUN IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE BALL. Fast break offenses need rebounders up front. The center and powerforward rebound, the small forward and shooting guard get out on the break and the point guard hangs back a bit as a saftey valve incase an outlet pass can't be made. With Blount, Baker, and McCarty monopolizing the minutes at C and PF, a third person needs to stay back and rebound, that usually ends up being Paul Pierce, because lets face it, he's our best rebounder who plays (Mihm doesn't get enough minutes, Hunter, Perkins, and probably Stewart don't play). 

The Celtics that dominated with a fast break had those rebounders in Russell, Sanders, Cowens, Silas, and Parish. Now we have McCarty, Blount, and Baker. Its not that we don't run. We just can't.


----------



## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

Pierce could average 50, 15 and 10 and if the Celtics don't win he is the MVP of a nothing.

It isn't about Pierce and his stats. It's about winning.
Pierce's stats are not making us better and he is the team captain so he gets the blame. That is how it works.

People seem to forget the first 18 games of this season when Pierce was still getting his stats but he wasn't running and he was the reason we were losing because he was the guy who expected the ball but was the last one up the court.


Do any of the Pierce fans get it now. He can't do it alone and last year he didn't have to.
This year Vin'
s average is up and Jiri is getting some points and Pierce is getting all of his rebounds plus Walkers too and Walker assists and we are losing faster then we ever could have imagined.

There is a reason for that. Be damned if I know why because it doesn't make any sense. How can we have more people scoring and not be winning.


----------



## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> 
> Do any of the Pierce fans get it now. He can't do it alone and last year he didn't have to.
> This year Vin's average is up and Jiri is getting some points and Pierce is getting all of his rebounds plus Walkers too and Walker assists and we are losing faster then we ever could have imagined.


Huh? Losing faster than we ever could have imagined? Honestly, when Walker was traded, I imagined losing a lot faster. The fact that we are a game under .500 is actually better than I expected at this point. That's not even taking into consideration the second trade or the fact that LaFrentz is out. What's with all the gloom and doom? We've already beaten 16 of the 28 other teams and have a winning road record. It's not the end of the world. What makes you think we won't get better as time goes on? Davis hasn't clicked offensively but is playing decent defense and rebounds well, Mihm is playing great but getting little time, Pierce is starting to play smarter, Blount is starting to rebound better and is a factor on offense, the defense has the potential to completely shut down a team, Welsch is steadily growing with more experience, and James is becoming a clutch player. My main concern is that Baker is getting left behind, and McCarty's minutes continue to increase. They can put together 2 or 3 well-played quarters. I think they have the potential to play 3 or 4 on a consistent basis. It's all about adjustments and feeling comfortable as a team. Individuals will always have their ups and downs, but the team must function as a unit and make up for others when they aren't playing well, as well as keep the players who are playing well involved. The blame game doesn't help.


----------



## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

The blame game has been going on for years with this team and no one even cared back when Walker was infairly being blamed.
Pierce is finally being given some of the blame for his part in losses. It's about time it has happened.

We are one game below 500 right now and if this was any other year (including last year) this team would be nearly out of the playoffs already. The Celtics and Pierce don't deserve extra credit for being 15 and 16 because the rest of the East is worse then it has been in a long time.
Miami, New York and even Atlanta seem to be gelling as teams better then the Celtics right now. You can if everything all you like but that doesn't change the fact that this team is getting worse the longer they become a team.
More people are scoring and we are winning less (I can't even remember the last time we were under 500 (when we had a shot at the playoffs)

It isn't about being negative. The Celtics player don't read this board and care what the fans are saying. It's about being realistic.
This team is not better and it isn't getting any better.



> Originally posted by <b>mrsister</b>!
> 
> 
> Huh? Losing faster than we ever could have imagined? Honestly, when Walker was traded, I imagined losing a lot faster. The fact that we are a game under .500 is actually better than I expected at this point. That's not even taking into consideration the second trade or the fact that LaFrentz is out. What's with all the gloom and doom? We've already beaten 16 of the 28 other teams and have a winning road record. It's not the end of the world. What makes you think we won't get better as time goes on? Davis hasn't clicked offensively but is playing decent defense and rebounds well, Mihm is playing great but getting little time, Pierce is starting to play smarter, Blount is starting to rebound better and is a factor on offense, the defense has the potential to completely shut down a team, Welsch is steadily growing with more experience, and James is becoming a clutch player. My main concern is that Baker is getting left behind, and McCarty's minutes continue to increase. They can put together 2 or 3 well-played quarters. I think they have the potential to play 3 or 4 on a consistent basis. It's all about adjustments and feeling comfortable as a team. Individuals will always have their ups and downs, but the team must function as a unit and make up for others when they aren't playing well, as well as keep the players who are playing well involved. The blame game doesn't help.


----------



## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...








the majority of the people on this board are die-hards and we cannot stand losing. We need to build around him. He is a star, noone sed hez a leader. We need rebounders (ahem throw kendrick and hunter in herre and there and see what they can do) or if danny is trigger happy bring someone in dammit, we need a guy to board then we get the break going then we have fast break ball. It starts with a catalyst, a rebounder, something that is roTTing on our bench. And your last point makes sense I mean damn, we have alotta guys in double figures instead of like last year just Pierce and WaLker every nite, but damn, we are a .500 or so border-line team. We need alot more pieces to the puzzle, but for now we need to keep up in the rebounding department and run for more than half a game.


----------



## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bball4me</b>!
> NBA 03-04 MyTendex Player Cumulative Rankings
> 
> Cumulative Rankings
> ...



Nice to see this. I notice that Paul has <b>one teammate</b>the PG section. 

I notice that Iverson has help in the center section. 

Needless to say that Kobe has much help in the Center, power forward, and point guard sections.

Garnett now has Sprewell and Sam.

TMac, as usual has nobody from his team on any of those sections.:|


----------



## Bball4me (Dec 4, 2003)

> Pierce could average 50, 15 and 10 and if the Celtics don't win he is the MVP of a nothing.





> Do any of the Pierce fans get it now. He can't do it alone and last year he didn't have to.





> The blame game has been going on for years with this team and no one even cared back when Walker was infairly being blamed.
> Pierce is finally being given some of the blame for his part in losses. It's about time it has happened.


Well these three quotes tell me all I need to know.
This is all about Antoine. 
Antoine is gone and in some twisted way you want to blame Pierce for that. 
You want to root for Antoine? You go right ahead and become a Mavericks fan. No one is stopping you.
Just remember, when Antoine was here "he was the MVP of nothing" because the Celtics didn't win. Your words, not mine.


----------



## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

*Shows to Go ya.....*

<b>"...quote: 
Originally posted by lastlaugh!

Do any of the Pierce fans get it now. He can't do it alone and last year he didn't have to.
This year Vin'
s average is up and Jiri is getting some points and Pierce is getting all of his rebounds plus Walkers too and Walker assists and we are losing faster then we ever could have imagined.

<u>There is a reason for that. Be damned if I know why </u>because it doesn't make any sense. How can we have more people scoring and not be winning. </b>

It shows how chemistry and/or "leadership" intangibles count. 

It also show how the spacing is not near what it was last year. 

Setting picks means a lot more than some fans calculate.

And then - as Heinsohn said, "<b>the weak side, who is covering the weak side????"</b>


----------



## goNBAjayhawks (May 3, 2003)

If we do do this coaching job who do we replace O'Brien with, just wondering, that plays an uptempo game. O'brien seems to be more of a defensive specialist, and thats why i wouldnt really want to see him go entirely, maybe keep him as an assistant, or hire him an assistant that knows how to do an uptempo offense. I dont think it can be fixed this year though, in reference to paul, he is very active during the offseason to stay in shape, but maybe its the wrong kind of shape b/c he def doesnt run, but remember this guy takes a beating and at least he is taking a break on Offense rather than defense. If you guys saw him in his kansas days he was much skinnier and had many highlight dunks on fast breaks, and just playing at kansas means he can play uptempo, he just needs that shape and endurance back rather then bulking up to take hits. But just for a second lets say he never does caus it seems that way, why cant we fast break with 4 guys, i mean all you really need is bank/james and Davis with McCarty/Welsch trailing. But pierce should get involved but to get that conditioning he needs he's gonna need another offseason, i think.


----------



## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

Pierce had a say in if Walker stayed or went. You choose not to believe that and I know for a fact it is true. Could Pierce have changed Danny Ainge's mind? We will never know because Pierce took himself over team any way you slice it.
He didn't do it just once he did it twice (The Eric, Kedrick and Tony deal) He wanted someone to play second fiddle to him and he got that in his friend Ricky Davis. Just like he wanted his friend Raef Lafrentz on this team.

You have to understand that Danny Ainge asked Paul about these trades before they happened for a reason. Do you think Danny would have asked him if he didn't want to take into consideration his opinion?

I have been a Celtics fan longer then you have probably been alive and the way the fans put this one guy over the team being better makes me sick as a Celtic fan. This isn't Celtics pride.
Larry never would have sold Kevin and Robert down the river at the expense of himself getting more points under any circumstances.
That is exactly what Pierce did.

These comments don't say anything but that I think this team was better off as a team by having Antoine on it. I think a lot of people feel the same way as I do. It's all about team not what one individual player brings to a team. That is why I wanted and still want Antoine back on this team because he makes this team better. He didn't get enough credit for the team player he was.

It's all about the team and until Paul Pierce puts the team before himself I will never be a fan of his kind of player. There is more to being a team player then just assists.


Antoine brought something to this team to make them successful (as successful as they could have been? Maybe yes and maybe no but we will never know) but where did I call him an MVP? I didn't. I said he was a team player and whatever he did last year made this team better. It won us the Indiana series (stats aside we know who kept us in that series for most of the games till Pierce took over in the last quarter of game 1 and the 3rd and 4th quarters of game 6. That would be Antoine and Tony)




> Originally posted by <b>Bball4me</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> Pierce had a say in if Walker stayed or went. You choose not to believe that and I know for a fact it is true.


Please tell us how you know this fact. Seriously.


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: Shows to Go ya.....*



> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> <b>"...quote:
> Originally posted by lastlaugh!
> 
> ...


Every coach in the league who plays the Celtics directs the players to go for the weak side and it is in all their scouting reports.


----------



## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mrsister</b>!
> 
> 
> Please tell us how you know this fact. Seriously.








I'm curious too how you know this is a fact, not disagreeing, just wondering where the truth behind it iZ.


----------



## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

There's a big difference between demanding a trade for selfish purposes and vouching for the players that will be gotten in return. lastlaugh, countless times you've said Ainge had a personal vendetta with Walker and would get rid of him whatever the cost. If that is the case, than all Pierce could've done in the situation was vouch for Raef, whom Pierce is extremely familiar with. I remember reading Pierce said he thinks he can help bring the best out of Raef. That still may be possible, we have yet to see what Lafrentz can bring to the Celtics due to his injuries. Or, he may never be healthy again. Ainge admitted to knowing about Raef's health problems before even striking the deal. I'm not sure where the logic is in blaming Paul for the Toine trade, unless you have personal information you know about the situation. If this is the case, then share with us the exact details and how you know them, and you're liable to get some believers.

As for the Ricky trade, Ainge said he wouldn't have done the deal if Pierce hadn't spoken highly of Davis. So yea, you could say he was responsible for the trade. However, I highly doubt he went to the Front Office and demanded that they trade for Davis. The trade was on the table, and once again, Pierce vouched for it. I personally don't see a problem with this deal anyway, at least not yet. Davis is a terrific, young, and relatively cheap talent. Mihm hasn't been able to showcase what he brings yet but it appears as if he's an extremely capable rebounder. Just because Cleveland got better as a result of the trade doesn't mean Boston got the shaft. The trade worked out well for both teams is a cliche, but in some instances it's true. We don't know yet, but this could turn out to be one of those cases.


----------



## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

Pierce is going to bring out the best in Raef, Pierce is going to bring out the best in Ricky Davis, blah blah blah. When is Pierce going to bring out the best in himself-- by sprinting up the floor on every possession instead of waddling and moving without the ball instead of trying to dribble through triple teams?


----------



## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> Pierce is going to bring out the best in Raef, Pierce is going to bring out the best in Ricky Davis, blah blah blah. When is Pierce going to bring out the best in himself-- by sprinting up the floor on every possession instead of waddling and moving without the ball instead of trying to dribble through triple teams?


You make a valid point, but nobody was questioning what Pierce has to do for the better of the team and himself, we were questioning the validity of lastlaugh's claims that Pierce deliberately had the two trades enforced so he could have his own team and post better individual statistics.


----------



## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

I am replying in this thread against my better judgement because I don't want this to start into a bash festivel.

Pierce was asked about both trades and had the opportunity to say his opinion of them. He choose to agree with both trades thinking he would benefit the most from these trades happening.
Not the team would benefit but Pierce would benefit.
I was told this by someone who proved to me they work for someone in the Celtics organization.
You can choose to not believe what I have been told but I know it is true.
I don't know if Danny Ainge would have listened to Pierce. Most likely he would not have but with what I know of Danny he wouldn't ask your opinion on something if he didn't intend on taking it into consideration.
This is why Danny never asked Jim O'Brien what he thought of the Ricky Davis for Eric Williams trade till a half hour before the trade went down and he didn't ask him he told him.
Even the Herald reported the aftermath of what happened then.

All sports personalities have an ego and Pierce is no exception. He might have been fed a line about this being his team but he was old enough to not swallow the BS he was being told. He choose to care about what he thought would benefit him.
I never said Pierce went to Danny with these trade idea's. I said the trade idea's were brought to Pierce and he gave his opinion.
His opinion was based on what he thought would improve his game and the team was a second thought.


----------



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> Pierce was asked about both trades and had the opportunity to say his opinion of them.


I have heard that as well, a million times in a million different papers.

Well twice in both of the Boston papers.


----------



## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

Of course Pierce was asked about the trades, Ainge probably wanted to avoid a mutiny from the team's best player. The only thing he may have done in the wrong is giving his approval of the trade simply because he thought it would better his personal situation. However, I have my doubts as to anyone outside of Pierce himself knowing whether or not he gave his consent on the deals simply for selfish reasons. Unless your acquantance heard it from Pierce's mouth, I'm obliged to take it with a grain of salt. I applaud you for presenting your case in a well-thought out manner, though.


----------



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Paul Pierce was seen and has asked Mike Gorman on which leadership books he recomends. Few days later the trade occured.

"If I had know about that trade...yeah well..." Tommy Heinsohn, never finished that sentance 3 nights ago.


----------



## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> "If I had know about that trade...yeah well..." Tommy Heinsohn, never finished that sentance 3 nights ago.


Does Tommy ever finish any sentences? And while we're critiquing the broadcasts, does Willie Maye ever ask a question? I know he makes statements and people respond to them, but has he actually put words together that, when written, would have a question mark at the end? 

As for this Pierce stuff, I have this feeling that Pierce was given the news of the trade the same way that O'Brien was. That's just the feeling I get from Ainge.


----------



## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

Pierce was aksed his opinion before the trade was made. I was told this but it was also mentioned by Pierce on TV in an interview. Might have been in the paper too.



> Originally posted by <b>agoo101284</b>!
> 
> 
> Does Tommy ever finish any sentences? And while we're critiquing the broadcasts, does Willie Maye ever ask a question? I know he makes statements and people respond to them, but has he actually put words together that, when written, would have a question mark at the end?
> ...


----------



## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> Pierce was aksed his opinion before the trade was made. I was told this but it was also mentioned by Pierce on TV in an interview. Might have been in the paper too.


We all know Pierce was asked about it, but only 2 people know what happened in the conversation and what each party was thinking. Stating something as fact is being a bit too confident. Hearing it from someone who works for someone in the Celtics organization really doesn't hold a lot of water. Even if you heard it from Ainge himself, I wouldn't believe it. Only a transcript of the conversation would convince me. What I am convinced of is that the trade would have happened regardless. The attitude of the management and ownership was that the Celtics were never going to win a championship with Walker on the team. Pierce may have had the power to possibly delay the trade, but definitely not to stop it. To say that the state of the team right now is Pierce's fault is just ridiculous. There are many factors to consider. Pierce is not free from blame, but he's not the sole reason. Even if Pierce had actively lobbied for both trades, that still wouldn't be the entire reason the Celtics are playing poorly. They simply aren't playing the brand of basketball that will make them a great team. I don't think it's a lack of talent. They need more of an inside presence, but so do a lot of teams, and the players they traded weren't providing that either. Walker could have, but OB didn't use him that way. They need more of a running game, but again, the players they traded weren't providing that. Same with rebounding. Same with point guards. They didn't give up anything that was addressing their current problems. I think the biggest loss was in leadership from Walker and Williams. They aren't focused, and nobody can step up and get in people's faces. Pierce handles the ball so much because nobody will say or do otherwise - even the coach. Walker and Williams could call people out and motivate them to play better. But with these trades, I don't think they considered leadership as a factor when maybe they should have.


----------



## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mrsister</b>!
> 
> 
> We all know Pierce was asked about it, but only 2 people know what happened in the conversation and what each party was thinking. Stating something as fact is being a bit too confident. Hearing it from someone who works for someone in the Celtics organization really doesn't hold a lot of water. Even if you heard it from Ainge himself, I wouldn't believe it. Only a transcript of the conversation would convince me. What I am convinced of is that the trade would have happened regardless. The attitude of the management and ownership was that the Celtics were never going to win a championship with Walker on the team. Pierce may have had the power to possibly delay the trade, but definitely not to stop it. To say that the state of the team right now is Pierce's fault is just ridiculous. There are many factors to consider. Pierce is not free from blame, but he's not the sole reason. Even if Pierce had actively lobbied for both trades, that still wouldn't be the entire reason the Celtics are playing poorly. They simply aren't playing the brand of basketball that will make them a great team. I don't think it's a lack of talent. They need more of an inside presence, but so do a lot of teams, and the players they traded weren't providing that either. Walker could have, but OB didn't use him that way. They need more of a running game, but again, the players they traded weren't providing that. Same with rebounding. Same with point guards. They didn't give up anything that was addressing their current problems. I think the biggest loss was in leadership from Walker and Williams. They aren't focused, and nobody can step up and get in people's faces. Pierce handles the ball so much because nobody will say or do otherwise - even the coach. Walker and Williams could call people out and motivate them to play better. But with these trades, I don't think they considered leadership as a factor when maybe they should have.








:clap:


----------



## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

Danny Ainge asked Jim O'Brien and Pierce about the Antoine trade but he didn't ask Jim his opinion on the Ricky/Eric trade and told him about it a half an hour before it happened.
This to me proves that Ainge would have considered other's opinions because he asked them.
It was like I said Pierce has already admitted in public he was asked about the trades. Danny obviously didn't care what Jim thought of the second trade because he didn't even ask the coach what he thought.

You can believe what you want to believe but Pierce admitted it already.



> Originally posted by <b>mrsister</b>!
> 
> 
> We all know Pierce was asked about it, but only 2 people know what happened in the conversation and what each party was thinking. Stating something as fact is being a bit too confident. Hearing it from someone who works for someone in the Celtics organization really doesn't hold a lot of water. Even if you heard it from Ainge himself, I wouldn't believe it. Only a transcript of the conversation would convince me. What I am convinced of is that the trade would have happened regardless. The attitude of the management and ownership was that the Celtics were never going to win a championship with Walker on the team. Pierce may have had the power to possibly delay the trade, but definitely not to stop it. To say that the state of the team right now is Pierce's fault is just ridiculous. There are many factors to consider. Pierce is not free from blame, but he's not the sole reason. Even if Pierce had actively lobbied for both trades, that still wouldn't be the entire reason the Celtics are playing poorly. They simply aren't playing the brand of basketball that will make them a great team. I don't think it's a lack of talent. They need more of an inside presence, but so do a lot of teams, and the players they traded weren't providing that either. Walker could have, but OB didn't use him that way. They need more of a running game, but again, the players they traded weren't providing that. Same with rebounding. Same with point guards. They didn't give up anything that was addressing their current problems. I think the biggest loss was in leadership from Walker and Williams. They aren't focused, and nobody can step up and get in people's faces. Pierce handles the ball so much because nobody will say or do otherwise - even the coach. Walker and Williams could call people out and motivate them to play better. But with these trades, I don't think they considered leadership as a factor when maybe they should have.


----------



## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> You can believe what you want to believe but Pierce admitted it already.


Did you even read what I wrote? The first line says we all know Pierce was asked about it. That's not a point of contention. It's the exact exchange of words that people don't know for sure about.


----------



## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

I hate to say it and I still think a lot of it has to do with coaching but somehow we were a much better team BEFORE the Eric/Ricky trade. We are TERRIBLE now. We have no set rotation. We never run. We don't have go to guys but Peirce who can't do it all. Our defense isn't as good. Our rookies are still not playing. I mean if the season is a wash play the freaking rookies, I know i sound like a broken record but it's common sence and I can't stand it! As for the fact we may lose more, so what, we lose a lot now, might as well get a better draft pick and play more exciting ball.


----------



## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*A lot of that has to do with the lush*

If Baker is playing like he did in November, we're winning these games. Period.


----------



## Bball4me (Dec 4, 2003)

This is just a bunch of BS.
Let me tell you what happened.
Walker asked for a trade. Walker.
Now, maybe he was angry because Ainge wouldn't give him what he wanted when he wanted it. Maybe he was just trying to use what he thought was leverage to get what he wanted and it backfired on him. But he asked for a trade and then when he saw Mark Cuban he let it be known that he wanted to go to Dallas. 
Ainge told both Pierce and Walker that he didn't think they complimented each other well enough on the court to get the team to the top. He made that very clear, which meant they both knew something was going to have to happen to change his mind or one or the other would be traded.
Paul knew Antoine asked to be traded, and knew that it could happen, but never really thought it would happen. 
Before the trade Ainge came to him to ask what he thought of LaFrentz. Walker's name was never mentioned.
It was what do you think of LaFrentz and how do you think he'd fit in. That's it. 
This is a very common practice in the NBA. If you want to know what a player is like you ask someone who played with them or coached them. 

Pierce didn't know Antoine was involved in the possible deal until late the night before the trade. He called friends and family in LA the next morning and they said he was in shock.

Contrary to what Lastlaugh wrote here, Pierce and LaFrentz are not great friends. They get along. They like each other, but that's it. He certainly never asked for him. 
In Pierce's time with the Celtics he's had two best friends, both have been traded away, Erick Strickland and Tony Battie.
He was also fairly close to Kenny Anderson, who was also traded.
Add Antoine to the list because they were also friends, although not as close as Tony or Erick.
He didn't pitch a fit when any of them were traded. Do you want to know why? Because he is an employee of the Boston Celtics. He isn't the boss. He works for Ainge. He works for the owners. 
He knows it's a business and that it very well could have been him traded away. 
I never thought I'd see the day where fans were complaining because a player didn't think he was bigger than the franchise and didn't throw a temper tantrum over a player personal move.
That's just pathetic.  To me, it shows just how desperate some people are to put Pierce down. The funny thing is, Antoine would put people like Lastlaugh in their place in a nanosecond. He knows Paul didn't have anything to do with the trade. They are still friends.
As far as Ricky goes Paul told the Celtics about Davis two years ago after playing with him in the summer, before he broke out in Cleveland and before Ainge took over. He suggested they keep an eye on him. That's all he did.
He never demanded the Celtics get him. He didn't want to see Tony (his best friend) or Eric traded. Once again, all he was asked was what kind of guy Davis was. Ainge knew that Paul knew him and wanted to get his opinion of him as a person. No one ever said, this is the trade, should we do it? It was, we are thinking about getting him and want to know whether he's an ok guy.
Where you people come up with some of this stuff is beyond me. 

Ainge has been very forthright with Pierce. He has told him that he needs him to be patient. He doesn't foresee this team going anywhere right now. He feels it's still a work in progress.
But just because Ainge is being honest with him doesn't mean he's asking Pierce to do his job for him or kowtowing to his every whim. Ainge is in complete control. Pierce remains an employee unless and until _he _is traded, which he knows isn't beyond the realm of possibility. As Ainge has said many times, no one is untouchable.


----------



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

First of all you seem to know quiet a lot about what happened, not only about stuff that the public knows, but some stuff no one ever heard....but I can't believe it all, and no one will.



> Originally posted by <b>Bball4me</b>!
> This is just a bunch of BS.
> Let me tell you what happened.
> Walker asked for a trade. Walker.
> Now, maybe he was angry because Ainge wouldn't give him what he wanted when he wanted it. Maybe he was just trying to use what he thought was leverage to get what he wanted and it backfired on him. But he asked for a trade and then when he saw Mark Cuban he let it be known that he wanted to go to Dallas.


Antoine NEVER EVER asked to be traded. He would never on any team. Antoine is a very loyal guy, and would have loved to see #8 next to #34 up on the rafters. 



> Originally posted by <b>Bball4me</b>!
> Ainge told both Pierce and Walker that he didn't think they complimented each other well enough on the court to get the team to the top. He made that very clear, which meant they both knew something was going to have to happen to change his mind or one or the other would be traded.
> Paul knew Antoine asked to be traded, and knew that it could happen, but never really thought it would happen.


I do believe that Ainge has told Paul and Toine that they won't win a championship together, because we were missing a lot of pieces. 
1) We had a PF playing C.
2) Williams was our starting SF, but does a million times better off the bench.
3) We didn't have a point guard.
4) We didn't have a bench.
In 2001-2002, we had much more talent. Kenny played the point, Erick was a back up at the point and SG, and Rodney was a KEY 6th man....then Baker came along last year...and well you know what happened....and BTW its seems a lot of people ignore this, but Toine played on one leg in the 2nd half of the season.



> Originally posted by <b>Bball4me</b>!
> Before the trade Ainge came to him to ask what he thought of LaFrentz. Walker's name was never mentioned.
> It was what do you think of LaFrentz and how do you think he'd fit in. That's it.
> 
> ...


Paul knew about the trade DAYS before it happned. How do I know? Because he has asked Mike Gorman for books about leadership DAYS before the deal occured.
And several reports have said that Paul has asked for LaFrentz, not for Toine, but he has asked for him.




> Originally posted by <b>Bball4me</b>!
> Contrary to what Lastlaugh wrote here, Pierce and LaFrentz are not great friends. They get along. They like each other, but that's it. He certainly never asked for him. In Pierce's time with the Celtics he's had two best friends, both have been traded away, Erick Strickland and Tony Battie.


I don't know how you know that, but I buying it, I know that he was always with Tony.



> Originally posted by <b>Bball4me</b>!
> I never thought I'd see the day where fans were complaining because a player didn't think he was bigger than the franchise and didn't throw a temper tantrum over a player personal move.
> That's just pathetic.  To me, it shows just how desperate some people are to put Pierce down. The funny thing is, Antoine would put people like Lastlaugh in their place in a nanosecond. He knows Paul didn't have anything to do with the trade. They are still friends.


Thats how we do it in Boson, if you can't get us a championship in 2-3 years time, then you're gone.



> Originally posted by <b>Bball4me</b>!
> As far as Ricky goes Paul told the Celtics about Davis two years ago after playing with him in the summer, before he broke out in Cleveland and before Ainge took over. He suggested they keep an eye on him. That's all he did.
> He never demanded the Celtics get him. He didn't want to see Tony (his best friend) or Eric traded. Once again, all he was asked was what kind of guy Davis was. Ainge knew that Paul knew him and wanted to get his opinion of him as a person. No one ever said, this is the trade, should we do it? It was, we are thinking about getting him and want to know whether he's an ok guy.
> Where you people come up with some of this stuff is beyond me.


He's great friends with Davis, and said he would have loved to play with him. Plus he needed desperate help becuase we sucked, until the last 5 games before the trade.



> Originally posted by <b>Bball4me</b>!
> Ainge has been very forthright with Pierce. He has told him that he needs him to be patient. He doesn't foresee this team going anywhere right now. He feels it's still a work in progress.
> But just because Ainge is being honest with him doesn't mean he's asking Pierce to do his job for him or kowtowing to his every whim. Ainge is in complete control. Pierce remains an employee unless and until _he _is traded, which he knows isn't beyond the realm of possibility. As Ainge has said many times, no one is untouchable.


"Work in progress"? For ****s sake Walter McCarty is playing. Geez, how is he the future? Are we also waiting for Yogi and Mills to come back from injury so we can kill everyone?


----------



## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

bbal4me,
The only thing you are doing is taking comments from the paper and spinning them to your opinion.
I have no problem coming out and calling you a liar because right now you are lying through your teeth.

Pierce hung out with Tony Battie (He was with him the night he got stabbed. This is why Aqua thinks it sounds right. Paul and Eric were friends but they are not best friends.
Paul is and was friends with Raef Lafrentz. This is something he himself has said on Boston TV. No one ever called them best friends but they were friend.


Antoine did ask to be traded but it was out of frustration.
Time and time again Danny Ainge let it be known that he wasn't giving him a contract. Antoine asked and Danny lied through his teeth.
Antoine isn't a stupid man. Do you not think he knew in the end he wasn't getting a contract? Do you not think he heard all the rumors that had been going around days before Danny Ainge arrived in Boston?


Antoine NEVER asked to be traded to Dallas. He kidded around with Marc Cuban at a charity event. 

Danny Ainge never told Antoine and Paul they didn't have the talent as a team to win a championship. This is BS he said on TNT it was never said to Antoine and Paul.


Danny Ainge told Paul about the trade involving Antoine days before it happened. Pierce admitted this. Which is why I called him on being two faced. He doesn't seem to be able to make up his mind on how this all happened.


Go ahead and keep lying bbal because some people will always believe you but make no mistake about it. You are spinning everything to make it seem like Pierce actually has some loyalty and I know that isn't the case. He cares more about HIMSELF then he does about the best interest of the TEAM.
He really believed losing Antoine would make his game better and that is all he cared about.


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> 
> Pierce hung out with Tony Battie (He was with him the night he got stabbed. This is why Aqua thinks it sounds right. Paul and Eric were friends but they are not best friends.
> Paul is and was friends with Raef Lafrentz. This is something he himself has said on Boston TV. No one ever called them best friends but they were friend.


Pierce and Raef played together in Kansas, so they must have spent a lot of time together. Also this made the trade more acceptable to Celtics fans. 



> Antoine did ask to be traded but it was out of frustration.
> Time and time again Danny Ainge let it be known that he wasn't giving him a contract. Antoine asked and Danny lied through his teeth.
> Antoine isn't a stupid man. Do you not think he knew in the end he wasn't getting a contract? Do you not think he heard all the rumors that had been going around days before Danny Ainge arrived in Boston?


Antoine openly said he wanted a max contract and if I was GM of the Celtics at the time I would have said no. But, I would have talked about something less (10 M). Danny was wrong to say he definetly wouldn't renew Antoine's contract. 

Your right Antoine asked to be traded out of frustration. Antoine would have loved to stay in Boston and he knew he had no future their if Danny Ainge was the GM or Director of Basketball Operations. 



> Antoine NEVER asked to be traded to Dallas. He kidded around with Marc Cuban at a charity event.


Antoine got traded to Dallas because Don Nelson is the kind of coach Antoine NEEDS to reach his amazing potential.



> Danny Ainge never told Antoine and Paul they didn't have the talent as a team to win a championship. This is BS he said on TNT it was never said to Antoine and Paul.


Your right again. Antoine and Paul with a decent C would have talent to challenge and contend for the Championship. Half the things Danny said on TNT were stupid.



> Danny Ainge told Paul about the trade involving Antoine days before it happened. Pierce admitted this. Which is why I called him on being two faced. He doesn't seem to be able to make up his mind on how this all happened.


This is the part I don't agree with you on. You can't call him two faced. Antoine was Pierce's friend and Pierce had no control on the trade. He couldn't say anything because Danny would be all over him. Pierce couldn't do a thing. I think he handled it well. What would you do if you were in his situation? 



> Go ahead and keep lying bbal because some people will always believe you but make no mistake about it. You are spinning everything to make it seem like Pierce actually has some loyalty and I know that isn't the case. He cares more about HIMSELF then he does about the best interest of the TEAM.


How can you say this?  Do you have a quote from Pierce?


----------



## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

Paul Pierce said on the TV that he knew about the trade before it happened and that he was asked his opinion.
I don't have the quote but I saw it for myself and so did anyone else who watches the news here in Boston.
Pierce was asked his opinion for a reason. Just like Jim O'brien wasn't asked his opinion on the Ricky/Eric deal. He had the opportunity to say what he wanted and he did.

Antoine NEVER asked for a max contract. He wanted an extention and the money was never brought up because Ainge kept refusing to discuss it.




> Originally posted by <b>Celts11</b>!
> 
> 
> Pierce and Raef played together in Kansas, so they must have spent a lot of time together. Also this made the trade more acceptable to Celtics fans.
> ...


----------



## kcchiefs-fan (Oct 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> Paul Pierce said on the TV that he knew about the trade before it happened and that he was asked his opinion.
> I don't have the quote but I saw it for myself and so did anyone else who watches the news here in Boston.
> Pierce was asked his opinion for a reason. Just like Jim O'brien wasn't asked his opinion on the Ricky/Eric deal. He had the opportunity to say what he wanted and he did.


Nobody's questioning this, but it's hard to believe you can hold it against him for not putting his neck out and throwing a fit because they were trading Antoine. What exactly did you want him to do?


----------



## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

He was asked his opinion and literally thought other players on this team didn't matter and that he would be fine doing it all.

He could have said, I need help and Antoine helps me. He instead didn't care about the team as a whole. He only cared about what he perceived as this being his team.











> Originally posted by <b>kcchiefs-fan</b>!
> 
> 
> Nobody's questioning this, but it's hard to believe you can hold it against him for not putting his neck out and throwing a fit because they were trading Antoine. What exactly did you want him to do?


----------



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> He was asked his opinion and literally thought other players on this team didn't matter and that he would be fine doing it all.
> 
> He could have said, I need help and Antoine helps me. He instead didn't care about the team as a whole. He only cared about what he perceived as this being his team.


But this is the thing you need to understand....Antoine could have helped him, but we would have never won it with Antoine and Pierce alone, we needed more players to help, but with 3 max contracts we couldn't do that. I know we could have waited to get rid of Toine's contract, but that would include paying the tax...which we DON'T want to do.

All in all, I WANT TO REBUILD.


----------



## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

Here is where I don't agree.
Walker and Pierce were a great foundation to win a championship.
Everyone would have had to change their games to win one (cough 3's cough) but we needed to add a center (just like every other teams needs to add one to beat the big yellow Shaq man in the middle)
You do not subtract from a team who could have beaten anyone in the East last year except NJ. You add on to the team.

Vin Baker's contract is not the reason Antoine was traded. 
He was gone anyway because Ainge wanted it that way and no one on this team (Pierce and O'Brien included) wanted to stick up for Antoine based on selfish reasons (O'Brien keeping his job and Pierce wanting this to be HIS team only)





> Originally posted by <b>aquaitious</b>!
> 
> 
> But this is the thing you need to understand....Antoine could have helped him, but we would have never won it with Antoine and Pierce alone, we needed more players to help, but with 3 max contracts we couldn't do that. I know we could have waited to get rid of Toine's contract, but that would include paying the tax...which we DON'T want to do.
> ...


----------



## bballin (Jun 3, 2003)

yadayadayada


----------



## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bballin</b>!
> yadayadayada








LoL.


----------



## CBF_Returns (Jul 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> Here is where I don't agree.
> Walker and Pierce were a great foundation to win a championship.


Lol. What a joke. Walker and Pierce were doing a GREAT job so far. You were a shade above mediocre. I bet Beantown fans could almost smell the championship. :laugh:


----------



## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>CBF_Returns</b>!
> 
> 
> Lol. What a joke. Walker and Pierce were doing a GREAT job so far. You were a shade above mediocre. I bet Beantown fans could almost smell the championship. :laugh:


Uh no, we need someone who can dominate the inside....and basically we got a Center who shoots 3s. Yeah he'll kill em.


----------



## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

Have you seen this team lately?
I never said we would win I said we build onto what we have.
Obviously Pierce fans can't handle it when people don't think he is the best player in the NBA.

The truth hurts.



> Originally posted by <b>CBF_Returns</b>!
> 
> 
> Lol. What a joke. Walker and Pierce were doing a GREAT job so far. You were a shade above mediocre. I bet Beantown fans could almost smell the championship. :laugh:


----------



## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> Have you seen this team lately?
> I never said we would win I said we build onto what we have.
> Obviously Pierce fans can't handle it when people don't think he is the best player in the NBA.
> ...








Why in your eyes is everybody a Pierce fan?? I think all he was doing was disagreeing that Pierce and Walker were a great foundation for a championship, his opinion, how come you always have to come back w/ the whole "Pierce fanatic" thing when you don't even know who these people that are posting are, he may not even be a C's fan (hypothetically speaking), think of a new excuse or comeback because calling everyone a Pierce fanatic because they disagree with you makes no sense.

And to be honest, noone knows if Pierce and Walker were a great foundation b/c they aren't together anymore. So in a way it's a lost argument b/c there are too many what ifs. If Toine requested a max deal, if Toine would have walked, if that, if this.

I loved Antoine and I was heartbroken when he was traded, and the year we made it to the ECF and were up 2 - 1 I thought we finally were going to get to the championship, even if it was against te Lakers. Now that team is long gone, 'cept for WALTAH and PIERCE, which imo is crazy, but we have to live with the present and future and hope our personnel can bring in the right guys for the job to start BUILDING a championship team.


----------



## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

My orginal comments about Pierce fans not being able to handle the truth was quoted to that guy but the comments were actually reffering to the Pierce obssesed fans who frequent this board.
Obviously this guy insulted Pierce so he must not be a fan of his.

The Pierce fans are the same people who come here and defend every single thing he does wrong. You know who you are.


> Originally posted by <b>Richie Rich</b>!
> 
> Why in your eyes is everybody a Pierce fan?? I think all he was doing was disagreeing that Pierce and Walker were a great foundation for a championship, his opinion, how come you always have to come back w/ the whole "Pierce fanatic" thing when you don't even know who these people that are posting are, he may not even be a C's fan (hypothetically speaking), think of a new excuse or comeback because calling everyone a Pierce fanatic because they disagree with you makes no sense.
> 
> ...


----------



## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> My orginal comments about Pierce fans not being able to handle the truth was quoted to that guy but the comments were actually reffering to the Pierce obssesed fans who frequent this board.
> Obviously this guy insulted Pierce so he must not be a fan of his.
> 
> The Pierce fans are the same people who come here and defend every single thing he does wrong. You know who you are.








SOrry I just take things too personally sometimes becasue I know for a fact I am not a "Pierce" obssessed fan. Even if he got traded I would still be a C's fan, 4 life, but I would be mad b/c I have his jersey .


----------



## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bball4me</b>!
> 
> <u>This is Ainge's plan,</u><b> to be more of a team and less star dominate.
> However, unlike some on this board, Ainge knows this isn't going to happen overnight. </b> He doesn't expect it to come together this year. He's asked the players on this team to be patient. He's already told the media he plans to be patient with the coaching.
> ...


"IF" that is Ainge's plan, then he does NOT understand Celtic pride at all. You see the Celtics KNEW who their "star" was and he demanded unselfish play - BUT they knew who their "star" was.....trust me.

When you have a "no-star" system, you have Lenny Wilkens and his philosophy. He whined in his book that he didn't have Russell like Auerbach had. All he had was Craig Ehlo! HELLO! (Talk about not adhering to your own philosophy!!!) If people cannot see that "stars" are essential, but so is UNSELFISH play - even if it means crashing the floor for a loose ball or taking that last shot when you have to. 
BTW, that is precisely why he failed so miserably in Toronto. I'm glad he was fired, as he would have destroyed Vince, given 1/2 the chance. 
He still doesn't know that Russell was a star? 
He still doesn't know that "stars" are needed?
Ainge wants "that system" for our Celtics? :nonono:


----------



## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> "IF" that is Ainge's plan, then he does NOT understand Celtic pride at all. You see the Celtics KNEW who their "star" was and he demanded unselfish play - BUT they knew who their "star" was.....trust me.


Yes, indeed. And the star of this team is Pierce. The players know it, the marketeers know it and the owners know it when they sign the paychecks.

But Ainge is right that any team to be successful needs balanced scoring. Any team can stop one or two players if those are the only guys who get to touch the ball.

I think it would be very interesting to go back and check the Celtics' record in games where Pierce takes more than 20 shots from the field, vs games in which he takes less than 20. I bet that their record is much better in games in which Pierce shoots less and the scoring is more balanced, as it was last evening against Cleveland ( 6 guys in double figures).


----------



## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

I know it's bad now...But can't we show a little FAITH?


----------



## Bball4me (Dec 4, 2003)

> I think it would be very interesting to go back and check the Celtics' record in games where Pierce takes more than 20 shots from the field, vs games in which he takes less than 20. I bet that their record is much better in games in which Pierce shoots less and the scoring is more balanced, as it was last evening against Cleveland ( 6 guys in double figures).


Don't bet the house.
The Celtics are 6-4 in games where Pierce takes more than 20 shots. 
In addition we are 1-0 when he scores 40 or more.
7-1 when he scores 30 or more.
6-10 when he scores 20 or more.
5-8 when he scores 10 or more.


----------



## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bball4me</b>!
> 
> 
> Don't bet the house.
> ...


Quite frankly I'm surprised that the Celtics are over .500 when Pierce takes more than 20 shots.


----------



## MDTS and MCTS (Sep 2, 2003)

Don't bother posting things that have been crosed out because they'll be deleted. ---agoo


----------



## goNBAjayhawks (May 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> Quite frankly I'm surprised that the Celtics are over .500 when Pierce takes more than 20 shots.


So Big John should you be cheering with me that pierce has a good game while taking over 20 shots?


----------



## bballin (Jun 3, 2003)

> So Big John should you be cheering with me that pierce has a good game while taking over 20 shots?


 :sfight: 

duck and cover, this should be fun to watch 

uh oh, i hear laughter for the last time...

(j/ks people)


----------



## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

One statistic that is accurate is that the Celtics are undefeated when Pierce gets 10+ free throws. That means he's taking it to the hoop.

Tonight against Houston, Pierce was 7-15 from the floor but 11-12 from the line.

Jiri Welsch was 7 for 8 from the floor (3-3 from beyond the arc) and 4-4 from the line. Think about those numbers for a moment and ask yourself whether Pierce should be shooting it 20 times.


----------



## goNBAjayhawks (May 3, 2003)

Wouldnt it be fair to say that Jiri benefits from the devensive focus on pierce. And i dont think 7-15 is something to get displeased about, and he got to the line plenty, but he did only have one assist. Good game for Walta, Jiri, and Blount. Over .500 baby party on:yes: :cheers:


----------



## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>goNBAjayhawks</b>!
> Wouldnt it be fair to say that Jiri benefits from the devensive focus on pierce.


Yes, sometimes, but Welsch scored several of his hoops while Pierce was on the bench and another after he stole the ball from Mobley.

Houston did not double Pierce excessively tonight. Even so, most of Pierce's filed goals came in the first quarter. He hit a big 3 in the 4th quarter, but also threw up a couple of airballs.

Pierrce played a decent game, but the Celtics maintained their lead for a long stretch while Pierce was resting and Ricky Davis was in the game.


----------



## bballin (Jun 3, 2003)

yeah, blount was dominant in the 4th (sorry for the hyperbole, just thought i'd never get to write that at all)


----------



## goNBAjayhawks (May 3, 2003)

no doubt BJ, every one seemed to play an excellent 4th, especially welsch, and welsch as mcCarty did very well while pierce was out or what have you, but this isnt the first time Jiri has done this and i think teams are really overlooking him b/c of the focus and mindset if they shut down pierce its a for sure win, and luckily welsch has been an amazing player thus far.


----------



## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> One statistic that is accurate is that the Celtics are undefeated when Pierce gets 10+ free throws. That means he's taking it to the hoop.
> 
> Tonight against Houston, Pierce was 7-15 from the floor but 11-12 from the line.
> ...


Well, they don't count the times you get fouled and miss as shots, so he technically did take about 20 shots, but I see what you're saying. When Pierce gets to the line a lot, good things happen. I just wish he got more calls when he gets mauled under the basket.


----------

