# King says Iverson off table in deal



## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

> The 76ers trading Allen Iverson?
> 
> Doesn't sound that way at all.
> 
> "I fully expect Allen will be suiting up with us next season," Sixers president/general manager Billy King told the Daily News this afternoon.


http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/basketball/15120083.htm


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

that was our last chance to get anything significant for him.


----------



## Vermillion (Mar 23, 2004)

Well, better than leaving the fans hanging.

Yehey! I hope Iverson retires with this franchise.


----------



## SirCharles34 (Nov 16, 2004)

When I heard about this on ESPN, I was happy, mainly becasue I know Billy King wasn't going to get equal value for AI, so I would rather keep him a 6er.


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

SirCharles34 said:


> When I heard about this on ESPN, I was happy, mainly becasue I know Billy King wasn't going to get equal value for AI, so I would rather keep him a 6er.


AI seems to be relieved as well.



> *Iverson Relieved To Be Staying In Philly*
> 26th July, 2006 - 12:41 pm
> Philadelphia Daily News - Gary Moore, Allen Iverson's manager, confirmed that Billy King flew to Atlanta on Tuesday and with Iverson for roughly 2 ½ hours in a hospitality suite in an area hotel.
> 
> ...



http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/41674/20060726/iverson_relieved_to_be_staying_in_philly/


----------



## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Good, he belongs in Philly if you are going to trade him then you have to get a superstar player back. Stupid idea to even think about trading him


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

My only issue with this situation is King and his handling with this situation. He and 76ers fans need to understand when trading away a superstar player you never receive equal value in return, and expecting equal value for AI was foolish.


----------



## Ras (Jul 25, 2005)

ralaw said:


> My only issue with this situation is King and his handling with this situation. He and 76ers fans need to understand when trading away a superstar player you never receive equal value in return, and expecting equal value for AI was foolish.


And also getting equal value wouldn't necessarily be smart. The point of trading AI is to rebuild, and getting another 'franchise' player that's about to hit his final top years will not get this franchise anywhere. It's smart to trade away AI for parts that can help build around, Iggy perhaps for now, or someone in next years draft since it's vastly talented. I think keeping AI is not a smart move for the franchise.


----------



## Sixerfanforlife (Jun 23, 2005)

Regardless of what the 76ers did, they would still make the playoffs in this horribly weak Eastern Conference.


----------



## Imsonecessary (Jul 15, 2006)

Ras said:


> It's smart to trade away AI for parts that can help *build around, Iggy* perhaps for now, or someone in next years draft since it's vastly talented. I think keeping AI is not a smart move for the franchise.


You say that the Sixers keeping AI wasn't a smart move, and that they should build around Iguodala????????????????????????????????????????? That's like trynna build a team around a young Doug Christie or Desmond Mason. Then also roll the dice in the draft on an *unproven* player hoping the one you pick pans out to become half the player AI is??? Some of yall need to actually WATCH basketball...If you don't get a Tim Duncan out of the draft you can forget about the draft being the answer to competing for a championship in the modern NBA of the last 10 years. You absolutely have to make trades and sign free agents to get proven players like Shaq and Rasheed Wallace. Otherwise you'll end up with a team like the Celtics or the Timberwolves...
Billy King already knows that, even though he's a terrible GM. That's why he traded for Webber. The draft is very overrated considering all of the players that lack the qualities of a champion that teams have to weed through... Free Agency is where it's at, and the Sixers will have cap room in a couple of years when Webber's contract expires while AI is in his last year, and waiting that two years is a HELL of a lot better than rebuilding possibly waiting another 20 years to get a great player out of the draft...


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

Imsonecessary said:


> You say that the Sixers keeping AI wasn't a smart move, and that they should build around Iguodala????????????????????????????????????????? That's like trynna build a team around a young Doug Christie or Desmond Mason. Then also roll the dice in the draft on an *unproven* player hoping the one you pick pans out to become half the player AI is??? Some of yall need to actually WATCH basketball...If you don't get a Tim Duncan out of the draft you can forget about the draft being the answer to competing for a championship in the modern NBA of the last 10 years. You absolutely have to make trades and sign free agents to get proven players like Shaq and Rasheed Wallace. Otherwise you'll end up with a team like the Celtics or the Timberwolves...
> Billy King already knows that, even though he's a terrible GM. That's why he traded for Webber. The draft is very overrated considering all of the players that lack the qualities of a champion that teams have to weed through... Free Agency is where it's at, and the Sixers will have cap room in a couple of years when Webber's contract expires while AI is in his last year, and waiting that two years is a HELL of a lot better than rebuilding possibly waiting another 20 years to get a great player out of the draft...


 Why is it so hard for you to understand that you need capspace to do that and AI takes a chunk of that capspace. Also how does Desmond Mason and or Doug Christie games remind you of Iggy at all. Doug Christie wasnt the athlete that Iggy is and Mason isnt the defender and or have the skill set of Iggy.


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

If AI doesn't sacrifice any of his game to make his teammates better, it won't matter. You're talking like this team isn't posted up on mediocrity. Don't rebuild, put pieces around Iverson.. build around Iverson, but remember if this team misses out on the playoffs again it's everyone else's fault BUT Iverson.

Of course, he'd be the first to blame himself, but his fans never point that finger at him. If this team is going to do anything in the playoffs, he's going to have to sacrifice some ballhandling, some minutes, and some shots.


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Coatesvillain said:


> If AI doesn't sacrifice any of his game to make his teammates better, it won't matter. You're talking like this team isn't posted up on mediocrity. Don't rebuild, put pieces around Iverson.. build around Iverson, but remember if this team misses out on the playoffs again it's everyone else's fault BUT Iverson.
> 
> Of course, he'd be the first to blame himself, but his fans never point that finger at him. If this team is going to do anything in the playoffs, he's going to have to sacrifice some ballhandling, some minutes, and some shots.



In my opinion as great of an individual player Iverson is this team isn't going anywhere if they continue to try and rebuild around him. He has been the centepiece of this team for the last decade and the team has had one appearence in the NBA Finals and a host of losses in the Conf Semis and 1st round. Since his arrival in 1997 this team has been mediocre at best minus one to two good seasons. Now, I understand much of this can be attributed to poor managment, but a great deal of that lies directly on the shoulders of Allen Iverson, as he due to his style of play never allowed another player to develop into a good sidekick. I have been watching AI since his days at Bethel Highschool and I've always believed until he learns how to play the point, and stop isolating his teammates he will struggle in the NBA. Iverson needs to be traded for the betterment of the organization and Allen Iverson.


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

ralaw said:


> In my opinion as great of an individual player Iverson is this team isn't going anywhere if they continue to try and rebuild around him. He has been the centepiece of this team for the last decade and the team has had one appearence in the NBA Finals and a host of losses in the Conf Semis and 1st round. Since his arrival in 1997 this team has been mediocre at best minus one to two good seasons. Now, I understand much of this can be attributed to poor managment, but a great deal of that lies directly on the shoulders of Allen Iverson, as he due to his style of play never allowed another player to develop into a good sidekick. I have been watching AI since his days at Bethel Highschool and I've always believed until he learns how to play the point, and stop isolating his teammates he will struggle in the NBA. Iverson needs to be traded for the betterment of the organization and Allen Iverson.


ralaw, trust me when I say you're preaching to the choir. You're saying what I've been saying all along.


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Coatesvillain said:


> ralaw, trust me when I say you're preaching to the choir. You're saying what I've been saying all along.


Oh, I was just agreeing with your post by adding my opinion.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

ralaw said:


> In my opinion as great of an individual player Iverson is this team isn't going anywhere if they continue to try and rebuild around him. He has been the centepiece of this team for the last decade and the team has had one appearence in the NBA Finals and a host of losses in the Conf Semis and 1st round. Since his arrival in 1997 this team has been mediocre at best minus one to two good seasons. Now, I understand much of this can be attributed to poor managment, but a great deal of that lies directly on the shoulders of Allen Iverson, as he due to his style of play never allowed another player to develop into a good sidekick. I have been watching AI since his days at Bethel Highschool and I've always believed until he learns how to play the point, and stop isolating his teammates he will struggle in the NBA. Iverson needs to be traded for the betterment of the organization and Allen Iverson.


 I agree wholeheartedly, but hes hardly struggled in the NBA.


----------



## Imsonecessary (Jul 15, 2006)

The Sixers just need to continue to get NBA players that can play the game efficiently on and *OFF* of the ball. The players that the Sixers drafted around AI's first few years here like Stackhouse, Larry Hughes, and Tim Thomas all needed the baskeball to be effective, but all of them played a losers brand of basektball because none of them shot the ball efficiently or handled it without alot of turnovers, and they never played solid defense. Hughes and Stackhouse till this very day aren't effective off of the ball the way that players that play with AI NEED and SHOULD be. Iguodala and Korver were definitely steps in the right direction towards getting the types of players that AI needs but as long as Korver is amongst the top 5 basketball players on the Sixers we will always come up short...

AI needs players around him that do other things besides want the ball to create for THEMSELVES, and have plays called that have them as the focal point. Players that would fit great with AI are: Marion, Diaw, Josh Smith, Kirilenko, Rashard Lewis, Morris Peterson, Tayshaun Prince, Delonte West, Ron Artest, Raja Bell (Had him :curse: ), Luol Deng.
Most of those players are semi-obtainble. Just get players into town that play the entire length of the court defense & offense that don't NEED to have plays run for them to have big games.


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

BEEZ said:


> I agree wholeheartedly, but hes hardly struggled in the NBA.


Opps, I meant "his teams will struggle." AI has a history of making sure he gets his, which has contributed to his teams mediocracy across his career (minus a season or two).


----------



## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

Coatesvillain said:


> If AI doesn't sacrifice any of his game to make his teammates better, it won't matter. You're talking like this team isn't posted up on mediocrity. Don't rebuild, put pieces around Iverson.. build around Iverson, but remember if this team misses out on the playoffs again it's everyone else's fault BUT Iverson.
> 
> Of course, he'd be the first to blame himself, but his fans never point that finger at him. If this team is going to do anything in the playoffs, he's going to have to sacrifice some ballhandling, some minutes, and some shots.


Funny, I always thought you were an Iverson fan.

But, if AI sacrifices his game for the good of the team, I don't think it will make any great amount of difference. I'm assuming you're wanting a more evenly balanced, chris webber type offense. 

There are two problems with that

First, it takes a very good offensive coach to make that work consistently. I don't believe that CHeeks fills that requirement.

Second, the sixers don't have good enough (or more precisely, consistent enough) supporting offensive players to make that work. Even if AI plays Mike Bibby, Iguadala Christie(and he's not that good a shooter), Korver is no Paja, and Sam couldn't be Brad Miller in a million years. Plus, their bench isn't deep enough. 

AI hogs stats, true, but the team isn't much, if any better off without him controlling the show.


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

sliccat said:


> Funny, I always thought you were an Iverson fan.
> 
> But, if AI sacrifices his game for the good of the team, I don't think it will make any great amount of difference. I'm assuming you're wanting a more evenly balanced, chris webber type offense.
> 
> ...


I am a fan, I'm just a guy who doesn't want to see him Vs the world.

I also don't want it to be a Chris Webber offense, when I talk about Iverson sacrificing his game I'm talking about benefitting the other players more than Webber. The thing I've learned watching basketball is you can be surprised with how consistent a player can be, if the star gives them confidence and believes in them. Remember, I was the guy who was supporting Iverson for giving up that final shot Vs the Pistons in the playoffs to Willie Green.

I think Billy King has consistently messed up and hasn't surrounded Iverson with the talent he deserves, a big part of that had to do with him overpaying players. So I know it's not completely Iverson's fault, but I believe he's a player who's capable of involving others in the offense more than he does.

I think both Iverson AND Webber should sacrifice their offense, spread out the ball handling. Some plays let Iverson initiate (when he has the chance to push it on the fast break, let him go), allow Webber some plays running it, give Iguodala some clear outs, let Sammy run on the back door.

What I've been saying since last year, is that Iverson should then allow the offense to get into a rhythm and then be the team's closer (similar to Dwyane Wade in the Finals) as we all know he's capable of that. What's the point of him having a 20 point out burst in the second quarter, when those points would have a much larger impact at the end of games? See what I mean?

I'm not by any means saying that this team has the pieces to win a championship, I'm saying the exact opposite.. but I think for this team to be better than I think it is they have to have it's stars give up something to help out the others.

I don't want this to be the C-Webb show, or the AI show, I want it to be the Sixers show.

I won't lie and say I won't cheer for this team, because I know even though I was the naysayer and missed most of last season due to school work, I still lived and died with the team.


----------



## SirCharles34 (Nov 16, 2004)

What do you mean when you say make your team better? To me, AI is doing all he can and more. He's dishing nearly 8 dimes a game, while avg a career high in points. It's time for other players to be accountable.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

SirCharles34 said:


> What do you mean when you say make your team better? To me, AI is doing all he can and more. He's dishing nearly 8 dimes a game, while avg a career high in points. It's time for other players to be accountable.


 See people get caught up in numbers too much. Are those 8 good assists, AI still and hes getting there, isnt a floor general. About 4 of those assists goes to Iggy on oops on a nightly basis so that really leaves only 4 assists he dishing to the other players. Its about getting your teammates in the proper position to help them be successful if you have the ball 80% of the time


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

SirCharles34 said:


> What do you mean when you say make your team better? To me, AI is doing all he can and more. He's dishing nearly 8 dimes a game, while avg a career high in points. It's time for other players to be accountable.


I think Iverson needs to be held accountable, because everyone else is always blamed. As Kenny Smith always says sometimes you need to do less to do more for the team.

It's obvious by the way he plays the game, he doesn't trust his teammates with the ball, for this team to be better than it was last season he has to trust them. He has to give up the ball more and not just for assists, but giving his teammates space to do their thing and get into a true offensive rhythm.

We already know Iverson can score, and get to the line anytime he wants. Now lets see him trust his teammates and let them do their thing. Let him shoot less, handle the ball less and play less, while still being the main star on the team.


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

Also I always point out the Lakers Vs the Suns in the playoffs, despite the fact the Suns won the series.. the Lakers were a much better team when Kobe helped setup his teammates than they were when they watched him play.

If Kobe is capable of doing that, why wouldn't Iverson?


----------



## SirCharles34 (Nov 16, 2004)

Explain 2001?

How soon we forget...


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

SirCharles34 said:


> Explain 2001?
> 
> How soon we forget...


So your resting you cofidence on one or two good years while conviently ignoring AI has been in the league 10 years? I know, I know, it's not AI's fault, but his GM and teammates fault. The nerve of me expecting the franchise GOAT to have a better regular season career record of 391-397 across his career.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

SirCharles34 said:


> Explain 2001?
> 
> How soon we forget...


 How soon we foget how weak the East was that year, how soon we forget that they 7 games in each of they're series except the Lakers one where they lost in 5


----------



## Your Answer (Jul 13, 2005)

BEEZ said:


> How soon we foget how weak the East was that year, how soon we forget that they 7 games in each of they're series except the Lakers one where they lost in 5


How soon we forget we actually had a semi decent squad of role players that year, ppl do look to much into the numbers like you said BEEZ but do you know how many more assists AI could of actually had last year if the players on this team would actually hit the open jumper he sets them up with. How many times last year did you see AI hook Dre up with a wide open look for him to only look at it and then kick back to Allen. Or How many times did Allen hook up Ollie with that wide open jumper that Snow never missed only to clank it off the back of the rim. A player can only do so much to get his team involved if they choose to not get involved after that, theres nothing more we can do. I dont really have a problem with Ollie as I do DRE. His lack of agressiveness is jus dissapointing to me. He has the ability its jus like he doesnt want to try. Last year Webber was the only one on that team besides Allen who could or wanted to score, but yet Allen gets blamed for not getting his teamates involved. I believe allen said it best I can keep giving them the ball its not my fault if they keep giving it back to me


----------



## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

I think what Beez means is that A.I. gets a lot of assists, but those are just numbers. What doesnt show up in the stat sheet is the pass that leads to the assist, or even swinging it on the perimeter.

Assists are not THAT good of a way to determine if someones controlling the ball too much. With A.I., he's gonna dribble the ball and look to score, but if that doesnt work he dishes. He should try moving the ball more without dribbling, not just drive and dishes.


----------



## Sixerfanforlife (Jun 23, 2005)

In order for AI to be succesfull as a PG, we need to run the floor, ALA Phoenix Suns.


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

LamarButler said:


> I think what Beez means is that A.I. gets a lot of assists, but those are just numbers. What doesnt show up in the stat sheet is the pass that leads to the assist, or even swinging it on the perimeter.
> 
> Assists are not THAT good of a way to determine if someones controlling the ball too much. With A.I., he's gonna dribble the ball and look to score, but if that doesnt work he dishes. He should try moving the ball more without dribbling, not just drive and dishes.


Great post.


----------



## SirCharles34 (Nov 16, 2004)

From what I'm reading on here, everyone's calling AI a ballhog and he needs to share the ball to make his team mates better. 

But, correct me if I'm wrong, Iverson was more of a ballhog in 2001 than he is now, so what's your point? 
He was routinely launching 30 shots per game and shooting 40% from the field. His game will always be this way. It's management's responsibility to realise this and get the right players around him like Larry Brown did when he was here. 

All this Iverson thrashing is getting tired.. YAWN! 
:boohoo:


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

SirCharles34 said:


> From what I'm reading on here, everyone's calling AI a ballhog and he needs to share the ball to make his team mates better.
> 
> But, correct me if I'm wrong, Iverson was more of a ballhog in 2001 than he is now, so what's your point?
> He was routinely launching 30 shots per game and shooting 40% from the field. His game will always be this way. It's management's responsibility to realise this and get the right players around him like Larry Brown did when he was here.
> ...


 I would say you are. He handles the ball more now than he has ever before in his career. Its not managmenets responsibility to realize this and get players to fit him. All GREAT GREAT superstars adjust their games for others and he still hasnt that much to this point in his career. Its a difference between "Iverson thrashing" and constructive criticism which, what is being said in here is. Iverson is not above being criticized. Also Iverson in 2001 was 5 years younger than he is now, you cant keep applying what happened in the past to whats going on in the NBA now. Living in the past is not going to correct today.


----------



## Sixerfanforlife (Jun 23, 2005)

But we can't correct today, all we can do is ponder, and mope in misery over so many of the GREAT MOVES WE COULD'VE MADE


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

BEEZ said:


> I would say you are. He handles the ball more now than he has ever before in his career. Its not managmenets responsibility to realize this and get players to fit him. All GREAT GREAT superstars adjust their games for others and he still hasnt that much to this point in his career. Its a difference between "Iverson thrashing" and constructive criticism which, what is being said in here is. Iverson is not above being criticized. Also Iverson in 2001 was 5 years younger than he is now, you cant keep applying what happened in the past to whats going on in the NBA now. Living in the past is not going to correct today.


Exactly.

I think I've done the exact opposite of trashing in this thread, but that might just be me. Hell, I thought I was giving him more credit in this thread than I have in the past year combined.

People get way too offended when people bring any criticism towards Iverson, but to me no player is beyond criticism.


----------



## SirCharles34 (Nov 16, 2004)

BEEZ said:


> I would say you are. He handles the ball more now than he has ever before in his career. Its not managmenets responsibility to realize this and get players to fit him. All GREAT GREAT superstars adjust their games for others and he still hasnt that much to this point in his career. Its a difference between "Iverson thrashing" and constructive criticism which, what is being said in here is. Iverson is not above being criticized. Also Iverson in 2001 was 5 years younger than he is now, you cant keep applying what happened in the past to whats going on in the NBA now. Living in the past is not going to correct today.


Okay, maybe it was a poor choice of words. And of course there is nothing wrong with a little criticism but we all know what kind of player AI is, so why do you all keep tryin to turn him into something he is not? 

This dude is 6' tall, a buck sixty-five, a half-pint player dominating in the land of GIANTS. He can only do so much. 33.0ppg from an undersized player with the heart of a lion. So, if he only averages 23.0ppg, you think it would make a difference? 
This guy is an unnatural phenomenon. Give him another 6 inches and he'll be mentioned in the same breath as Jordan. He can only do so much with his size. He can't dunk over anyone like Jordan or see over players like Magic. He's never had a Worthy, a Pippen, Kareem, McHale to play alongside. Give hiim any of that and the criticism will be few and far between. Hell.. Dr. J. didn't win it until he got Moses. 

If Larry Brown can recognize how to build a team around AI, why can't the others see this?? Webber is not the answer.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

SirCharles34 said:


> Okay, maybe it was a poor choice of words. And of course there is nothing wrong with a little criticism but we all know what kind of player AI is, so why do you all keep tryin to turn him into something he is not?
> 
> This dude is 6' tall, a buck sixty-five, a half-pint player dominating in the land of GIANTS. He can only do so much. 33.0ppg from an undersized player with the heart of a lion. So, if he only averages 23.0ppg, you think it would make a difference?
> This guy is an unnatural phenomenon. Give him another 6 inches and he'll be mentioned in the same breath as Jordan. He can only do so much with his size. He can't dunk over anyone like Jordan or see over players like Magic. He's never had a Worthy, a Pippen, Kareem, McHale to play alongside. Give hiim any of that and the criticism will be few and far between. Hell.. Dr. J. didn't win it until he got Moses.
> ...


 You keep talking about Larry Brown builing a team around AI. 2000-2001 is different frm 2006-2007. The east was much weaker than it is now and not nearly as talented. You keep saying he can only do so much, when his height was never brought into question and the "if he was 6 inches taller" blh blah blah. nothing can be done about that. Being that his height is such a disadvantage he should have made adjustments to his game to help better his teammates. Its not hard all other superstars have done it. A team cant be built around him at this point in his career, its just not possible. And as I stated before the Sixers played in 7 games in all of they're games throught the ECF. That team wasnt that strong if that happened. Its time to stop living in the past regarding AI and the Sixers.


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

If Michael Jordan adjusted his game for the betterment of his team, I don't see why Allen Iverson can't do the same.

Look at Jordan prior to accepting the triangle, and his style of play wasn't that different from Iverson's. Proof is in the pudding.


----------



## Your Answer (Jul 13, 2005)

Coatesvillain said:


> If Michael Jordan adjusted his game for the betterment of his team, I don't see why Allen Iverson can't do the same.
> 
> Look at Jordan prior to accepting the triangle, and his style of play wasn't that different from Iverson's. Proof is in the pudding.


your problem is your comparing the talent Jordan had compaired to the talent Iverson has, Where is the Pippen on this team? Where is the Rodman on this team? You Cant even compare the players the Bulls and Jordan has vs this Supporting Cast come on now.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

Route I-76 said:


> your problem is your comparing the talent Jordan had compaired to the talent Iverson has, Where is the Pippen on this team? Where is the Rodman on this team? You Cant even compare the players the Bulls and Jordan has vs this Supporting Cast come on now.


 Firstly, Jordan didnt have the talent and role players around him initially. If you going to speak on that you have to have facts. Jordan adjusted his game to what the coaches felt would be best for him and that was the triangle offense. Jordan had already adjusted his game by the time Rodman and the rest of those guys got there. As far as Scottie was concerned it took a few years for Pip to be the Pippen that we all came to know. Its not about the supporing cast itself but what your star player can do to better your supporting cast


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

Route I-76 said:


> your problem is your comparing the talent Jordan had compaired to the talent Iverson has, Where is the Pippen on this team? Where is the Rodman on this team? You Cant even compare the players the Bulls and Jordan has vs this Supporting Cast come on now.


*WHOOSH*

If you find where I said Iverson had the talent Jordan had during the championship years, I'll stop my argument right now.

Jordan embraced a role and changed the way he played the game, which opened up players to play to the best of their abilities. Being on a team is a two way street, it's not all about players being put around someone it's also about that player playing a way that is conductive to them being productive.

And really, that's all I've been saying in this entire thread. All I'm suggesting is something that's easily achievable for Iverson, and it's a change that would allow him to play even longer than his current style. No one is saying that he should play like Jason Kidd, or even Steve Nash, he could still be Allen Iverson while giving others a chance to improve their productivity.

I personally don't think this is the most talented team in the league, but you'd be surprised at what some of these guys would be capable of if they had their number called more often. Allow players to get into a rhythm offensively, don't worry as much about assists as ball movement, run plays for other players, let Iverson do his thing in the 4th.

Maybe I've had a negative tone in my posts for so much of the past year, that that's the way people are reading everything I type that way. If that's the case, step back and know that I'm not hiding anything in between the lines. I truly think that if he did this, the Sixers would be better for it and he could very well be a legit MVP candidate.

This very theory holds true in working with a team anywhere. I mean look at it as if you're working on something as simple as yardwork and you have a small group working on it. Is it better to work with someone who tries to carry the group and do everything? Or a group where the work is more evenly spread out? It might be easier to work for the former, but the production is almost always better on the latter.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

BEEZ said:


> I would say you are. He handles the ball more now than he has ever before in his career. Its not managmenets responsibility to realize this and get players to fit him. All GREAT GREAT superstars adjust their games for others and he still hasnt that much to this point in his career. Its a difference between "Iverson thrashing" and constructive criticism which, what is being said in here is. Iverson is not above being criticized. Also Iverson in 2001 was 5 years younger than he is now, you cant keep applying what happened in the past to whats going on in the NBA now. Living in the past is not going to correct today.


Who do you suggest AI passes to, that's a better option than him on offense. 

I agree that he controls the ball too much, but who the hell on that team can do half of what he can? No one, and that's been the story of his career. Iverson has never had the talent around him that he could really trust. 

I find it amazing that Iverson continues to be criticized, while players like Kobe, Arenas, McGrady, and Carter don't get half the flack for shooting the ball. Iverson gives the ball to Korver on the break, and Webber gets 19 shots a game from the elbow. I fault Iverson for not getting Iguodala involved more, but what the hell else is he supposed to do. So unless you expect him to dump it in to Dalembert or kick it out to Korver for an isolation play, I don't know what more you expect him to do, until he gets *suitable* talent around him.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Coatesvillain said:


> I personally don't think this is the most talented team in the league, but you'd be surprised at what some of these guys would be capable of if they had their number called more often. Allow players to get into a rhythm offensively, don't worry as much about assists as ball movement, run plays for other players, let Iverson do his thing in the 4th.


Who exactly on that team would surprise anyone other than Iguodala? I'd love to see Korver get his own shot, or Dalembert deal on someone in the post. Everyone knows what Webber brings: 12-15 footers all day, and a disappearing act when the game is on the line. The Sixers have a ****ty team - that's why they lose, not because of Iverson. I definitely agree that he needs to move the ball more, but I still don't understand who the hell he is supposed to pass to, with the exception of Iguodala. 

Remember the Olympics? Iverson passed the ball a whole lot, and was one of the best players on the team. He has shown me that he'll pass if there's someone worth passing to. Otherwise, he's better off putting his elite scoring ability to work, for better or for worse.


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Who exactly on that team would surprise anyone other than Iguodala? I'd love to see Korver get his own shot, or Dalembert deal on someone in the post. Everyone knows what Webber brings: 12-15 footers all day, and a disappearing act when the game is on the line. The Sixers have a ****ty team - that's why they lose, not because of Iverson. I definitely agree that he needs to move the ball more, but I still don't understand who the hell he is supposed to pass to, with the exception of Iguodala.


This is really a mess of a post. Please find where I said the team loses because of Iverson.

It's like you came in trying to disagree with me, when actually agreeing. I think Rodney Carney, Willie Green, as well as Iguodala could produce if given some of the offense. And even on a smaller scale Korver, and Dalembert. Like I keep reiterating Iverson can still be Iverson, just give a little to allow others to produce more.

I don't think this is a good team on paper, I've said it many times in the past, I want Billy King to be firedm that's not news. On that same note, paper also lies more than anything else on Earth. If Kobe Bryant could pull in the reins for the first four games of the series against the Suns, and give the Lakers a 3-1 edge.. why can't Iverson do something similar (though not as extreme)? Who did Kobe really have to defer to besides Lamar Odom?



> Remember the Olympics? Iverson passed the ball a whole lot, and was one of the best players on the team. He has shown me that he'll pass if there's someone worth passing to. Otherwise, he's better off putting his elite scoring ability to work, for better or for worse.


Yes, I remember the Olympics and that's one of the reasons why I believe Iverson is capable of pulling in his "Me vs the world" style to benefit the team. I'm not even asking him to pull his game back that far, like I've said he can still be AI, the Answer all of that because he'd still be handling the ball a large amount of time.


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> I find it amazing that Iverson continues to be criticized, while players like Kobe, Arenas, McGrady, and Carter don't get half the flack for shooting the ball. Iverson gives the ball to Korver on the break, and Webber gets 19 shots a game from the elbow. I fault Iverson for not getting Iguodala involved more, but what the hell else is he supposed to do. So unless you expect him to dump it in to Dalembert or kick it out to Korver for an isolation play, I don't know what more you expect him to do, until he gets *suitable* talent around him.


That's the thing, we're not expecting him to do more, we're asking him to do LESS. I believe he does more than enough, and should actually reel in what he does a little and show more confidence in his teammates. So they don't find themselves watching him in awe as he does something amazing on the floor.

Kobe, Arenas, McGrady and Carter all get a ton of flack for shooting the ball, but they don't have the ball in their possession anywhere near as often as Iverson. On the flipside, I think Iverson gets more credit for shooting the ball the ball a lot than those players as well, it's a double edged sword.


----------



## SirCharles34 (Nov 16, 2004)

BEEZ said:


> Firstly, Jordan didnt have the talent and role players around him initially. If you going to speak on that you have to have facts. Jordan adjusted his game to what *the coaches felt would be best for him and that was the triangle offense*. Jordan had already adjusted his game by the time Rodman and the rest of those guys got there. As far as Scottie was concerned it took a few years for Pip to be the Pippen that we all came to know. Its not about the supporing cast itself but what your star player can do to better your supporting cast


Beez, you just answered the point I was trying to make earlier regarding management's need to build a team around Iverson the same way Chicago built the triangle around Jordan. 

If Larry Brown can recognize AI's game, and pattern & build a team full of defensive minded, role players to support Iverson's ball handling & his 30 shots per game style, then why can't the current coaches and GM do the same instead of pinning the blame for Philly's dismal record squarely on AI's shoulders? Brown new in his 1st season w/ Iverson that he had to do 1 of 2 things in order to win in Philly and that's trading AI or build a team around him and he chose the latter. AI didn't change his game in 1996, 1998, 2001 or 2005, so why does he need to change it now? Recognize his game and build around it to maximize AI's potential. What happened to trying to duplicate the success of 2001? That philosophy of finding defensive-minded role players who knew their game was to play good D, allow AI to run the floor, create, and score worked.

And as far as your argument about a weak division goes, the Atlantic has been weak the last few years. It's not like there was a powerhouse team winning division titles yr after yr and then all of a sudden it got weak in 2001... You didn't even have to win 50 games to take the division. The Nets took advantage of it, why can't we.


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

SirCharles34 said:


> Beez, you just answered the point I was trying to make earlier regarding management's need to build a team around Iverson the same way Chicago built the triangle around Jordan.
> 
> If Larry Brown can recognize AI's game, and pattern & build a team full of defensive minded, role players to support Iverson's ball handling & his 30 shots per game style, then why can't the current coaches and GM do the same instead of pinning the blame for Philly's dismal record squarely on AI's shoulders? Brown new in his 1st season w/ Iverson that he had to do 1 of 2 things in order to win in Philly and that's trading AI or build a team around him and he chose the latter. AI didn't change his game in 1996, 1998, 2001 or 2005, so why does he need to change it now? Recognize his game and build around it to maximize AI's potential. What happened to trying to duplicate the success of 2001? That philosophy of finding defensive-minded role players who knew their game was to play good D, allow AI to run the floor, create, and score worked.
> 
> And as far as your argument about a weak division goes, the Atlantic has been weak the last few years. It's not like there was a powerhouse team winning division titles yr after yr and then all of a sudden it got weak in 2001... You didn't even have to win 50 games to take the division. The Nets took advantage of it, why can't we.


WHO IS BLAMING IVERSON FOR THE SIXERS' DISMAL RECORD? WHO?!

[/CAPS]

The point that is trying to be made is that Michael Jordan played much like Allen Iverson prior to the triangle. When the triangle was first installed in Chicago, Jordan didn't buy into it and tried to buck it (much like Kobe) when he saw that it worked he bought into the system and changed the way he played.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

SirCharles34 said:


> Beez, you just answered the point I was trying to make earlier regarding management's need to build a team around Iverson the same way Chicago built the triangle around Jordan.
> 
> If Larry Brown can recognize AI's game, and pattern & build a team full of defensive minded, role players to support Iverson's ball handling & his 30 shots per game style, then why can't the current coaches and GM do the same instead of pinning the blame for Philly's dismal record squarely on AI's shoulders? Brown new in his 1st season w/ Iverson that he had to do 1 of 2 things in order to win in Philly and that's trading AI or build a team around him and he chose the latter. AI didn't change his game in 1996, 1998, 2001 or 2005, so why does he need to change it now? Recognize his game and build around it to maximize AI's potential. What happened to trying to duplicate the success of 2001? That philosophy of finding defensive-minded role players who knew their game was to play good D, allow AI to run the floor, create, and score worked.
> 
> And as far as your argument about a weak division goes, the Atlantic has been weak the last few years. It's not like there was a powerhouse team winning division titles yr after yr and then all of a sudden it got weak in 2001... You didn't even have to win 50 games to take the division. The Nets took advantage of it, why can't we.


 Im not understanding why you refuse to understand how weak the East was. Im not talking about the conference, IM talking the east as a whole. You had Miami that won the championship, Detroit, Chicago, Cleavland, Toronto, New Jersey, Milwaukee, the Knicks can only be better, Washington, its so many teams in the East that are better than the Sixers its not even funny. Yes these teams are much better than they were in 2001 not that much better, a WHOLE lot BETTER. I dont understand why you dont believe AI should change the manner in he plays. 1 Finals appearance in a weak East dont justify him not being able to criticized.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

Rodney the Rippa see Coatesvillian's post for my retort. Its spelled out right there


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

BEEZ said:


> Im not understanding why you refuse to understand how weak the East was. Im not talking about the conference, IM talking the east as a whole. You had Miami that won the championship, Detroit, Chicago, Cleavland, Toronto, New Jersey, Milwaukee, the Knicks can only be better, Washington, its so many teams in the East that are better than the Sixers its not even funny. Yes these teams are much better than they were in 2001 not that much better, a WHOLE lot BETTER. I dont understand why you dont believe AI should change the manner in he plays. 1 Finals appearance in a weak East dont justify him not being able to criticized.


Repped.

Oooops, i forgot admins are stuck with 10. :nah:


----------



## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Coatesvillain said:


> WHO IS BLAMING IVERSON FOR THE SIXERS' DISMAL RECORD? WHO?!
> 
> [/CAPS]
> 
> The point that is trying to be made is that Michael Jordan played much like Allen Iverson prior to the triangle. When the triangle was first installed in Chicago, Jordan didn't buy into it and tried to buck it (much like Kobe) when he saw that it worked he bought into the system and changed the way he played.


Thats also a good point. It's really up to A.I to figure out this whole thing by himself. He should just take a momentm think about what else he could to better the team. His goal should be improving his team as a whole not himself. Push them hard in practice and insert confidence in them, like MJ did with Pippen and the rest of his teamates. Type of omments such as _*"it's just practice, we're talking practice"*_ shouldn't be spoken by him anymore. Be a leader by example and go out there on the court and show it. He clearly has the talent to accomplish that....I mean, by now he should realize that the 30 points per game he average every season isn't cutting it for the team. Yes, it makes him look great as a player but his team suffer. Perhaps, he should switch position and play as shooting guard rather than being the premier ball handler. Lots of people blame his supporting cast for Sixers struggle but personally i think the problem lays within Allen Iverson.


----------



## RedsDrunk (Oct 31, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> Thats also a good point. It's really up to A.I to figure out this whole thing by himself. He should just take a momentm think about what else he could to better the team. His goal should be improving his team as a whole not himself. Push them hard in practice and insert confidence in them, like MJ did with Pippen and the rest of his teamates. Type of omments such as _*"it's just practice, we're talking practice"*_ shouldn't be spoken by him anymore. Be a leader by example and go out there on the court and show it. He clearly has the talent to accomplish that....I mean, by now he should realize that the 30 points per game he average every season isn't cutting it for the team. Yes, it makes him look great as a player but his team suffer. Perhaps, he should switch position and play as shooting guard rather than being the premier ball handler. Lots of people blame his supporting cast for Sixers struggle but personally i think the problem lays within Allen Iverson.



^^^every cliche misconception about ai I've ever seen all wrapped neatly into one ignorant post. :clap:


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

> This is really a mess of a post. Please find where I said the team loses because of Iverson.


I never said you said the team loses because of Iverson. I was making a general point. My post was mostly directed at your comment about being surprised at what some of those other guys can do. None of those other guys, with the exception of Iguodala, can do half of what Iverson can do. That's what got me irritated. 



> It's like you came in trying to disagree with me, when actually agreeing. I think Rodney Carney, Willie Green, as well as Iguodala could produce if given some of the offense. And even on a smaller scale Korver, and Dalembert. Like I keep reiterating Iverson can still be Iverson, just give a little to allow others to produce more.


Carney and Iguodala on the wing is scary. First of all, if Carney takes his defense seriously, the perimeter is pretty much locked down. Second of all, if they can force turnovers, the backcourt will be running for days. Who exactly is going to slow down an Iguodala, Carney, AI fastbreak? The thought in and of itself is scary - not to mention Carney can hit the three. Willie Green? Meh. He thrives in the open court, but that's half the problem with the Sixers - they don't take their defense seriously enough to get out on the break a whole lot. 

Korver and Dalembert? Come on, man. Korver is great outside of the three point line, and Iverson actually looks for him quite a bit. He'll never be able to get his shot, however, and Dalembert is, well, Dalembert. He's Camby minus the offense. 



> I don't think this is a good team on paper, I've said it many times in the past, I want Billy King to be firedm that's not news. On that same note, paper also lies more than anything else on Earth. If Kobe Bryant could pull in the reins for the first four games of the series against the Suns, and give the Lakers a 3-1 edge.. why can't Iverson do something similar (though not as extreme)? Who did Kobe really have to defer to besides Lamar Odom?


I think the talent gap between the Lakers and the Sixers is pretty extreme. More importantly, for most of the series, the Lakers were committed to a system. I see no such thing occuring in Philly, and I'll admit that AI might be part of the problem. When the Sixers play defense and look to run, they're dangerous as hell, even with their lack of talent. That commitment has never been made, and the results have followed accordingly. When Kobe pulled in the reins, he had the system and talent around him to win games. If Iverson pulls in the reins? I shudder at the thought. 



> Yes, I remember the Olympics and that's one of the reasons why I believe Iverson is capable of pulling in his "Me vs the world" style to benefit the team. I'm not even asking him to pull his game back that far, like I've said he can still be AI, the Answer all of that because he'd still be handling the ball a large amount of time.


I think his competitiveness gets in the way here, and I think he needs to mature in this area. If he feels like his team is slipping, he completely takes over. Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to get anywhere in the NBA without playing team ball. I'd rather see Iverson go somewhere else, alongside a Carmelo or Pierce - someone that can take a huge load off his shoulders. I don't doubt for a second that he'd defer, but that just won't happen. Billy King and Iverson are both to blame for that.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Coatesvillain said:


> That's the thing, we're not expecting him to do more, we're asking him to do LESS. I believe he does more than enough, and should actually reel in what he does a little and show more confidence in his teammates. So they don't find themselves watching him in awe as he does something amazing on the floor.
> 
> Kobe, Arenas, McGrady and Carter all get a ton of flack for shooting the ball, but they don't have the ball in their possession anywhere near as often as Iverson. On the flipside, I think Iverson gets more credit for shooting the ball the ball a lot than those players as well, it's a double edged sword.


Ok, but here's the question: what happens if Iverson lays back some? I just don't see the results as being positive.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

SirCharles34 said:


> Beez, you just answered the point I was trying to make earlier regarding management's need to build a team around Iverson the same way Chicago built the triangle around Jordan.
> 
> If Larry Brown can recognize AI's game, and pattern & build a team full of defensive minded, role players to support Iverson's ball handling & his 30 shots per game style, then why can't the current coaches and GM do the same instead of pinning the blame for Philly's dismal record squarely on AI's shoulders? Brown new in his 1st season w/ Iverson that he had to do 1 of 2 things in order to win in Philly and that's trading AI or build a team around him and he chose the latter. AI didn't change his game in 1996, 1998, 2001 or 2005, so why does he need to change it now? Recognize his game and build around it to maximize AI's potential. What happened to trying to duplicate the success of 2001? That philosophy of finding defensive-minded role players who knew their game was to play good D, allow AI to run the floor, create, and score worked.
> 
> And as far as your argument about a weak division goes, the Atlantic has been weak the last few years. It's not like there was a powerhouse team winning division titles yr after yr and then all of a sudden it got weak in 2001... You didn't even have to win 50 games to take the division. The Nets took advantage of it, why can't we.


I agree that the Clippers need to pattern the team more around Iverson (and hopefully they took a step in the right direction with Carney) but he does need to learn to utilize his teammates better. I'm not gonna make an excuse for him when it comes to Iguodala - he needs to be a lot more involved in the offense. That said, I don't see anyone else on the team worth very much, not even Webber. It goes both ways - Iverson needs to involve teammates more, but the organization needs to get him some teammates worth involving. All in all, he's in a terrible situation in Philadelphia and needs to leave.


----------



## Sixerfanforlife (Jun 23, 2005)

Once Chris Webber is gone, the 76ers will be an elite contender in the Eastern Conference, that simple.


----------



## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Sixerfanforlife said:


> Once Chris Webber is gone, the 76ers will be an elite contender in the Eastern Conference, that simple.



Who exactly is going to fill the power forward spot? I agree that Webber is holding the team back somewhat but when he does leave, who is going to be the power forward to fill in for him?


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

I was at the library typing a response yesterday (still don't have the internet on my computer) and it didn't send, so I'll type something short.

Roddney, the more I read your posts the more I see how similar our views on this are. The main difference is you don't think Iverson should pull the reins in a little until he gets help, I think if Iverson pulls in the reins the team will benefit. Everything else we've been saying has pretty much been on the same lines.

We both have said Iverson could do a better job getting his teammates involved.
We both have said that Billy King and the Sixers organization have done a bad job putting this roster together.
We both have said that it would be best for Iverson to go elsewhere to finish his career.

The point I'm at now is, the only one of those things that can be changed as of right now is the first one, and I think it's well within his grasp. Like I've said earlier in this thread I don't think he needs to pull the reins back as much as Kobe did in the playoffs, because he wouldn't still be Allen Iverson, I think if he pulled back 15% you'd notice a difference. 

Would that difference mean Eastern Conference Champs? Nope, it probably wouldn't even mean a trip to the second round, it could mean an increase in trade value of current undesirable players.

The question I have is whether Iverson plays the way he does with the Sixers is because of his competitive spirit, or because it's just the way he's used to playing, or if it's the way the coaches tell him to play.

And for the record, if that Laker team that was in the playoffs Vs the Suns is better on paper than the Sixers it's not far and away, looking at it yesterday it's pretty even. Of course they have the great advantage of having Phil Jackson as their head coach, and the Sixers have Mo Cheeks.


----------

