# lebron=choker?



## SlamJam (Nov 27, 2004)

lebron now is 2-15 on game winning or tying shots. is this gonna be something that will stop him from being GOAT?


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## cambyblockingyou (Nov 26, 2005)

Pretty sure this has been talked about a lot. i suggest digging up one of the other threads. But to answer quickly, the answer is "yes" he is (or has been) a choker and "yes" this will be one of the things that keep him from being the "goat" but certainly not the only thing. /thread


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

It's interesting how well known 2-15 is now. When he was 2-13 nobody knew. But 2-15, more people know that number it seems, than know what his overall stats are. It's interesting how the media can shape a perception of a player. I remember how Tim Duncan was falling off in last year's NBA finals, and people were writing him off as a soft choker. Then the Spurs won the finals and people started hailing him again.

All of this business is just about selling newspapers and passing time until a better story comes along.


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## Pnack (Aug 23, 2005)

First time I have heard of the stat, don't see a lot of lebron except for his dunks on the hilight real. Kind of suprised me though, definatley something he needs to work on.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Hmm... that is an interesting stat. But he is still YOUNG, and has lots of time to work on that. That being said, it could be one of the things that holds him back if he can't sort it out. Maybe he can just start running pick and roll and picking up an assist in these clutch moments?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

KobeBryant08 said:


> First time I have heard of the stat, don't see a lot of lebron except for his dunks on the hilight real. Kind of suprised me though, definatley something he needs to work on.


That's kind of suprising that this is the first time you've heard that stat. There's a thread that has the stat as it's title on the same page as this one, that went up to like 5 pages.

And I'm assuming you're a Laker fan, did you not watch the Cavs-Laker game?

And pretty much every major media outlet has made comment of the number. Oh well. Just suprised that this is your first encounter with the stat.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> It's interesting how well known 2-15 is now. When he was 2-13 nobody knew. But 2-15, more people know that number it seems, than know what his overall stats are. It's interesting how the media can shape a perception of a player. I remember how Tim Duncan was falling off in last year's NBA finals, and people were writing him off as a soft choker. Then the Spurs won the finals and people started hailing him again.
> 
> All of this business is just about selling newspapers and passing time until a better story comes along.


Lebron is supposedly the future of the league. Its going to be very hard for people to ignore the fact that he consistently fouls up during crunch time.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

LeBron choking like he has been is a real shame to the game. Luckily he has Z to bail him out. If he is like this in the regular season, then it serves to wonder how he will react in the playoffs...


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Having some miscues in a couple regular season games is not GOAT like, but won't really be remembered long term and like everything else he can learn from it. 

Sherako is right though. James will ultimately be judged by how he performs in the playoffs. If he rises to the occasion and elevates his game all will be forgotten. He has 10-15 years to prove himself before he even hits his mid 30's, so he has plenty of time.


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## naibsel (Dec 21, 2005)

Benedict_Boozer said:


> Sherako is right though. James will ultimately be judged by how he performs in the playoffs. If he rises to the occasion and elevates his game all will be forgotten. He has 10-15 years to prove himself before he even hits his mid 30's, so he has plenty of time.


elevate from 31-7-6? no one else comes close to those numbers, but apparently splitting some free throws at the end of a game has more of an affect then having ira newble playing larry hughe's minutes.

when lebron makes the playoffs this season, i bet he will choke hard. really **** up. he'll only average 25-5-5 and then everyone will have the proof that he's such a mediocre player


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

naibsel said:


> elevate from 31-7-6? no one else comes close to those numbers, but apparently splitting some free throws at the end of a game has more of an affect then having ira newble playing larry hughe's minutes.
> 
> when lebron makes the playoffs this season, i bet he will choke hard. really **** up. he'll only average 25-5-5 and then everyone will have the proof that he's such a mediocre player


By elevate his game, I meant step up and carry his team through tough 4th quarters and up his intensity defensively. Not so much statistically.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

LeBron isn't going to be the GOAT... He is going to be an outstanding player (already is), but I highly doubt he will surpass Bird, Magic, Oscar, Jerry West, Wilt, Russell, The Pearl Monroe, and Kobe legend status. Maybe, I'm wrong... and he will be mentioned with those guys, but I highly doubt he will surpass MJ as the GOAT. His level of play so far is phenomonally high, but he lacks certain "it" factors and intengibles that MJ had.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

naibsel said:


> elevate from 31-7-6? no one else comes close to those numbers,


You don't think that 36-6-4 is close to 31-7-6? Hmmm.... that's interesting.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Lebron's numbers for January are kinda cool:
32.2
7.6
8.0

And his numbers have gone up every month.
Getting periously close to 32/8/8. Not comparing that to Kobe in anyway. Just looking at the numbers on their own seperate from what any other player is doing or not doing.

Kind of more interesting than Lebron missing clutch shots.

It should also be noted that that clutch shot number emcompasses also his first year in the league. When he was a teenaged and right out of high school. I don't know that any high schooler has been asked to take that many clutch shots that early. Maybe he just needs time, no?


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

madskillz1_99 said:


> You don't think that 36-6-4 is close to 31-7-6? Hmmm.... that's interesting.


36-6-4 is better than 31-7-6. Mainly because a) that is a whopping 5 more ppg, they both are a rebound off and considering Kobe plays SG that isn't his main focus, where as that is a little more important of a task for a small forward. As for the dimes, LJ is up by 2 compared to Kobe. And distributing is more of a concern for LeBron because he has teammates that work better w/o the ball than Kobe does and has a team that for the most part has better spot up shooters and simply put, better players, that don't need to dribble in order to put up a comfortable shot (I.E. Damon Jones (yes I know he is shooting a low percentage right now), Eric Snow, Larry Hughes, Big Z etc. all of which are pretty good spot up shooters). Kobe's one teammate who has the potential to be above average as a player. But he can only score starting from when the ball is in his hands puts a huge damper on Kobe and his pass making / assist making potential. He isn't going to be able to work around picks and hit open jumpers etc. He rarely does that. This is what effects Kobe's assist output. Not that I am making excuses for my favorite player, but it's true. Not to mention, as the utility man, it is more important for Kobe to score for the Lakers to win, then it is for him to distribute to players who rarely finish plays off well. I saw at least 3-4 dimes against Golden State that should have either been finished off by dunks or layups from either Mihm, Cook, or Odom and they all simply missed the bucket and/or got fouled and didn't finish. So to me, and my logic, I certainly see 36-6-4 as being a far greater statistical output then 31-7-6...but that certainly isn't saying the latter isn't amazing as well...but 36-6-4 with an 81 point game on the resume, and a possible even higher scoring game than 81 points. (Kobe v.s. the Mavs through 3 had 62, against the Raps through 3 he had 53...kinda scary) it's just LeBron James numbers are all-world type numbers...Kobe's numbers right now are bonnafide legend status numbers. But once again, this is all from my p.o.v. If you gave Kobe a teammate like Rip Hamilton or Tayshaun Prince...that would be one damn fun duo to watch. Odom simply isn't compatible with Bryant. he requires the ball in his hands to be effective, and you can't risk putting the ball in his hands as much because Kobe is naturally a better playmaker. The same thing can be said for how successful he was in Miami. The whole offense was allowed to flow through Odom, because Wade wasn't an established star yet. Odom recieved much attention, and though he did well, the Heat were more successful in the later stages of the season and then the post-season when they put the ball in the hands of D. Wade and let him be the playmaker. It's an interesting situation because Odom is a playmaker, and needs the ball to start with to be effective...but he simply can't do it at the level of the D. Wade's and other playmakers of the league. And that's why Odom will never realize his potential. He is so one dimensional on offense. And now, I apologize for my Lamar Odom rant... LOL.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

It also should be noted that Kobe is putting up those numbers compared to LeBron's in roughly 2 minutes less per game. Even scarier....


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

when did they start keeping that punk-*** stat anyway. This turning into baseball


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

tone wone said:


> when did they start keeping that punk-*** stat anyway. This turning into baseball


And why exactly is it a punk *** stat


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

tone wone said:


> when did they start keeping that punk-*** stat anyway. This turning into baseball


I agree. Basketball is becomming too based off of stats. There is more to basketball than what is seen on a stat sheet. Stats is cooler for sports like baseball, where it means everything. You can be an outstanding player in basketball and not have good stats. Because basketball you have to have role players. The Yankees have like a roster full of all-stars. And they will all put up huge numbers. In basketball it is a give and take, and while some statistics will be nice for some players...others they will be worse but that doesn't always mean they are less effective. Know what I mean?


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

The MAMBA said:


> It also should be noted that Kobe is putting up those numbers compared to LeBron's in roughly 2 minutes less per game. Even scarier....


No, what's scarier is that LeBron is 7 years younger than Kobe and he's putting up better numbers.

And I don't think you could be more of a homer.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

CiMa said:


> No, what's scarier is that LeBron is 7 years younger than Kobe and he's putting up better numbers.
> 
> And I don't think you could be more of a homer.


Kobe's numbers are better. That has already been established. :biggrin:


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

madskillz1_99 said:


> Kobe's numbers are better. That has already been established. :biggrin:


...and Lakers fans/Kobe homers wonder why he has so many haters. :biggrin:


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## Arti (Nov 6, 2004)

madskillz1_99 said:


> Kobe's numbers are better. That has already been established. :biggrin:


Should we find Kobe at 21's stats vs Lebron's stats?


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Arti said:


> Should we find Kobe at 21's stats vs Lebron's stats?


LOL. oooohhh!!! well played! gee, you sure shut me up. Lebron's stats at 21 are better than Kobe's stats were at 21. Big secret there. 

We were talking about their stats now. Kobe's are a bit better.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

What did I say that would spawn haters of Kobe? The fact that I told the truth in my post? Jesus... I think it's more like CiMa is a huge LeBron stan. I gave LBJ props. But he still isn't on Kobe's level. What Kobe has done this year, he has cemented his place as a legend. No matter what he does from here on out, he was won 3 chips and dropped the second most un-godly number of points in a game ever. Did I say he was better than Jordan? No... cause he isn't. Is he a legend and putting up even better numbers than LBJ's outstanding numbers? Yes... How is what I'm saying making me a "homer" and/or spawning more Kobe haters? (As if we need or deserve anymore.)


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

madskillz1_99 said:


> LOL. oooohhh!!! well played! gee, you sure shut me up. Lebron's stats at 21 are better than Kobe's stats were at 21. Big secret there.
> 
> We were talking about their stats now. Kobe's are a bit better.


No they aren't. His scoring is better, that's it. Good lord, quit being such a homer.

PPG: Kobe
RPG: LeBron
APG: LeBron
SPG: LeBron
BPG: LeBron
FG%: LeBron
eFG%: LeBron
FT%: Kobe
3P%: LeBron
EFF: LeBron

End of discussion.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Arti said:


> Should we find Kobe at 21's stats vs Lebron's stats?


Comparing those numbers doesn't mean he is better than Kobe, even at this age. The only thing that seperates Kobe and LBJ at those ages is that LBJ was a) given the franchise from the moment he was drafted b) Was given opportunity c) was a bonnafide starter from the second he joined the lowly Cavs squad and d) the franchise put him out asap, so they could draw money and last but not least e) LeBron came in a physical freak of nature, in that he was already more bodily mature than Kobe ever was at that age or even now... Skill wise, Kobe probably is just as skillful then as LBJ is now. It's just opportunity, body, and promise is what allowed LBJ to put up those numbers sooner than Kobe. Kobe joined a championship caliber team when he was a rookie. It was also a time when high schoolers were still questioned to be proven commadities. There was a bigger chance in letting Kobe go out and start for the Lakers. He could have very well put up similar numbers. Kobe had to earn and work his way in the system. Which can also breeds character. Something LBJ may not ever get, because everything was handed to him.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

The MAMBA said:


> What did I say that would spawn haters of Kobe? The fact that I told the truth in my post? Jesus... I think it's more like CiMa is a huge LeBron stan. I gave LBJ props. But he still isn't on Kobe's level. What Kobe has done this year, he has cemented his place as a legend. No matter what he does from here on out, he was won 3 chips and dropped the second most un-godly number of points in a game ever. Did I say he was better than Jordan? No... cause he isn't. Is he a legend and putting up even better numbers than LBJ's outstanding numbers? Yes... How is what I'm saying making me a "homer" and/or spawning more Kobe haters? (As if we need or deserve anymore.)


No you being a homer is saying Kobe's numbers are better when they clearly aren't.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

CiMa said:


> No they aren't. His scoring is better, that's it. Good lord, quit being such a homer.
> 
> PPG: Kobe
> RPG: LeBron
> ...


Are stats everything again? Kobe shoots more than LeBron, naturally his fg% will be a little less. Let's also take into account intangibles. Who has more experience? Kobe... Who would you rather trust leading your team into a playoff series? Kobe (LBJ hasn't even got there yet)... Who is THE most clutch player in the game? Kobe Who plays better on ball defense? Kobe Who has the "killer instinct" Kobe or LeBron? Kobe... Who players better off the ball defense? Kobe...who is tougher mentally? Kobe... the list could go on and on about intangibles that Kobe brings to the table that aren't on a stat sheet, which make him hands down a better player.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

CiMa said:


> No they aren't. His scoring is better, that's it. Good lord, quit being such a homer.
> 
> PPG: Kobe
> RPG: LeBron
> ...


KObe can be relied upon for game winning shots, Lebron cant.
Kobe plays more defense than Lebron.

Lebron can have all the better stats but would you really prefer that over defense and clutch?.

end of story


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Hbwoy said:


> And why exactly is it a punk *** stat


 Because it's completely arbitrary. You could create _some_ split for any player that would look ugly. James has had quite a few close-and-late performances that were tremendous, so there's really no reason to believe he can't handle pressure.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

The MAMBA said:


> Are stats everything again? Kobe shoots more than LeBron, naturally his fg% will be a little less. Let's also take into account intangibles. Who has more experience? Kobe... Who would you rather trust leading your team into a playoff series? Kobe (LBJ hasn't even got there yet)... Who is THE most clutch player in the game? Kobe Who plays better on ball defense? Kobe Who has the "killer instinct" Kobe or LeBron? Kobe... Who players better off the ball defense? Kobe...who is tougher mentally? Kobe... the list could go on and on about intangibles that Kobe brings to the table that aren't on a stat sheet, which make him hands down a better player.


We are strictly talking about numbers right now. madskillz said Kobe's numbers are slightly better, which is what I was responding too. Yes Kobe is better than LeBron overall, but not by much. However, LeBron DOES have better overall numbers.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Who can get off a quality shot for himself at anytime he wants between Kobe and LeBron? Kobe... Who has a better offensive skill set? Kobe...

Basketball isn't just played on paper, CiMa.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> Basketball isn't just played on paper, CiMa.


CiMA lives in the fantsay world


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

Good lord people learn how to read, we are talking about NUMBERS. LeBron has better NUMBERS than Kobe. Why is that so ****ing hard for you to comprehend?


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

CiMa said:


> We are strictly talking about numbers right now. madskillz said Kobe's numbers are slightly better, which is what I was responding too. Yes Kobe is better than LeBron overall, but not by much. However, LeBron DOES have better overall numbers.


Does LBJ have better overall numbers? Sure... Are Kobe's more impressive? I would say so. People have labeled him as a definitive legend of the game already, due to this year alone. Kobe still is pretty handily better than LBJ.

I'm pretty sure even your boy LBJ would agree with me. I actually have the article where he admits to it.


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## Blink4 (Jan 17, 2005)

CiMa said:


> No they aren't. His scoring is better, that's it. Good lord, quit being such a homer.
> 
> PPG: Kobe
> RPG: LeBron
> ...


Lebron has more balanced stats, like you said. I however believe that Kobe scoring 36 points with 6 boards and 5 assists is more impressive than 31-7-6


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

The MAMBA said:


> Does LBJ have better overall numbers? Sure... Are Kobe's more impressive? I would say so. People have labeled him as a definitive legend of the game already, due to this year alone. Kobe still is pretty handily better than LBJ.
> 
> I'm pretty sure even your boy LBJ would agree with me. I actually have the article where he admits to it.


Oh my goodness. Give me one good reason how Kobe's numbers are more impressive? LeBron put up better numbers LAST YEAR than Kobe is this year and his supporting cast was just as bad as Kobe's is this year.

And ****ing a I know Kobe is better than LeBron, I already stated that BUT that doesn't negate the fact that LeBron puts up better numbers.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Stop blindly talking about stats. Kobe's the designated scorer for the Lakers, so he'll score a lot of points. Lamar Odom is the designated playmaker _and_ they're playing in the triangle, so Kobe was never going to average many assists this season. Kobe has averaged 6 assists in the past when he had to be the playmaker. This year, he's concentrating almost solely on scoring (as per Phil's directions, and as he should be doing with this particular supporting cast). Take into account circumstances.

On the flip side, LeBron would probably be scoring close to 36 ppg if he took 5 more shots a game.


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## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

Comparing Kobe to Lebron is like comparing Jesus to Mohammed...no matter what you say, somebody's gonna be pissed off!

With that being said, I'm gonna start calling Lebron Mr. 2 for 15. He will never be on Kobe or MJ's level cause he doesn't have "it" and he even admitted that. He might as well retire because Cleveland will remember him like they remember Earnest Byner.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Blink4 said:


> Lebron has more balanced stats, like you said. I however believe that Kobe scoring 36 points with 6 boards and 5 assists is more impressive than 31-7-6


That's what I said too.

CiMa chose not to listen to me. And it's not like I'm hating on CiMa or LeBron. I like and respect both. LeBron's numbers are other-wordly....Kobe's right now are legendary and more impressive even though overall LeBron's are better. This is the stuff of great conversation, no need to get heated and upset with each other.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

> On the flip side, LeBron would probably be scoring about 36 ppg if he took 5 more shots a game.


But then his assists would plummet as would his FG%. Defensively he would drop...even more. Basketball is a two-way street


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

The MAMBA said:


> That's what I said too.
> 
> CiMa chose not to listen to me. And it's not like I'm hating on CiMa or LeBron. I like and respect both. LeBron's numbers are other-wordly....Kobe's right now are legendary and more impressive even though overall LeBron's are better. This is the stuff of great conversation, no need to get heated and upset with each other.


I'm not choosing not to listen, it's you that's not giving me a good reason to how they are more impressive.

If LeBron took as many shots as Kobe did, we wouldn't be having this discussion. LeBron takes 22 shots a game, Kobe takes 28. So If Lebron went into Kobe mode, their scoring margin would be minimal, if not even.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

CiMa said:


> Oh my goodness. Give me one good reason how Kobe's numbers are more impressive? LeBron put up better numbers LAST YEAR than Kobe is this year and his supporting cast was just as bad as Kobe's is this year.


Umm LeBron has Big Z, the second best center in the league along with Drew Gooden and Eric Snow (solid pg, who plays D)...how is that worse than Kobe's teammates? Last year also LeBron let his team slip from like 4th place in the East, all the way otu of playoff contention. Kobe is averaging 36 ppg. The last time someone has averaged as much as that was the GOAT. You know? Michael Jordan. In 1988 his mvp year, he was putting up almost the exact same numbers. He is shooting at all-time highs, and still has a pretty damn effective percentage. But you can't once again just look at the stats. Look at how he is doing it, and what is resulting. Kobe is literally winning games himself. That is about as impressive as it comes. He has a team, that should be on the bottom barrell of the Western Conference, and wasn't even projected to be higher than an 8th seed has them at a record where they will be in playoff contention. He turns it on late in ballgames where everything matters, and just DESTROYS people. He doesn't even bother toying with them and their psyche the way MJ did. He just Terminates them like they were John Conner and he was sent here to kill the opposing team. LeBron, for as great as he plays, doesn't do that. It just look so much more impressive when Kobe flips his switch on, and decides to kill someone. Sometimes its even scary.



> And ****ing a I know Kobe is better than LeBron, I already stated that BUT that doesn't negate the fact that LeBron puts up better numbers.


Chill son, I'm not mad or taking this conversation and debate personal. And I agreed that LeBron is putting up better overall numbers. But Kobe's are just more impressive. This month he is averaging something like 45 ppg. Feel me? LeBron can have better numbers, but Kobe can still have the more impressive numbers...and they are. That 81 point game wasn't a fluke. He had the possiblity of even going further than that earlier in the year. That is what is so terrifying, and amazing about his performances... and that's why he is being fawned and more talked about in terms of stats right now than LeBron. Once again, LeBron's are better...Kobe's are more impressive.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

sherako said:


> But then his assists would plummet as would his FG%. Defensively he would drop...even more. Basketball is a two-way street


Yes, that's what I was saying. Kobe has to score a lot more this season than he has in the past, hence the huge increase in ppg and a big reason for the decrease in apg. If LeBron scored 36 ppg, his assists would likely drop. His FG% probably would, but that's a poor measure of efficiency anyway. I don't see LeBron becoming significantly more inefficient shooting five more times a game, using measures like TS% and ppfga. Whether or not that would hurt his team is a different issue.

Regardless, if Kobe scored less, his assists would likely go up. If LeBron scored more, his assists would likely go down. This seems like a pointless discussion. Appreciate both players, don't hate.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Actually last season Lebron's stats were just marginally worse than the best full season of Kobe's career.Also marginally worse than MJ's rookie season.If you compare their production by age it's going to make the Kobe lovers extremely defensive so you shouldn't do that.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

CiMa said:


> If LeBron took as many shots as Kobe did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.


That's not neccessarily true. We can't play "if and buts". Kobe IS doing it. LeBron said after the 81 point game, he can't score like that because it isn't his game.



> LeBron takes 22 shots a game, Kobe takes 28. So If Lebron went into Kobe mode, their scoring margin would be minimal, if not even.


Not neccessarily. Kobe has incredible stamina to put up all those shots, and still shoot a good percentage. Who knows if LeBron can do that until he actually does it. And even then it is no guarantee he would be averaging 36 ppg.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Diable said:


> Actually last season Lebron's stats were just marginally worse than the best full season of Kobe's career.Also marginally worse than MJ's rookie season.If you compare their production by age it's going to make the Kobe lovers extremely defensive so you shouldn't do that.


I hope you're not talking about me. I would love to see them. But once again stats isn't the end all be all. Kobe played second fiddle all the way until last year. In 2002-2003 he was actually the leader of the Lakers because Shaq missed so many games and Kobe was the one who lead them to the playoffs. I love LeBron...please show these comparisons. :clap:


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Spriggan said:


> Yes, that's what I was saying. Kobe has to score a lot more this season than he has in the past, hence the huge increase in ppg and a big reason for the decrease in apg. If LeBron scored 36 ppg, his assists would likely drop. His FG% probably would, but that's a poor measure of efficiency anyway. I don't see LeBron becoming significantly more inefficient shooting five more times a game, using measures like TS% and ppfga. Whether or not that would hurt his team is a different issue.
> 
> Regardless, if Kobe scored less, his assists would likely go up. If LeBron scored more, his assists would likely go down. This seems like a pointless discussion. Appreciate both players, don't hate.


100% Real Talk. Some people choose not to accept both, because of the disdain for one of the players. Both players are amazing.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

CiMa
If LeBron took as many shots as Kobe did said:


> Sure but his FG% and assists per game will go down.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

:laugh: @ john connor reference. The MAMBA is definitely one of my favorite posters.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

sherako said:


> :laugh: @ john connor reference. The MAMBA is definitely one of my favorite posters.


Why, thank you. But it's true, it it not? Kobe is the TERMINATOR. I mean MJ was a mean SOB on the bball floor, but he looks like prince charming compared to Kobe. AND I LOVE IT. Mike is my favorite player of all time. He would kill mother f'ers...then toy with them and break them mentally. He would beat them physically and would know that he was them beat, then would talk to them. Kobe doesn't do that. He beats them physically, then continues to kill them EVEN after they're dead. People say well Mike never scored 81...he didn't have to. He already had them beat, and he liked beating people mentally. A metaphor is this: Mike whould walk up to you talk to you while stabbing you in the heart and would end up with 60 points, makign the destroying a little easier to swallow. On the OTHER HAND... Kobe walks up to you, with red eyes no less, shanks you...doesn't say goodbye or offer condolences like MJ....then he proceeds to come back over your dead body and chop into it with an axe and keep hacking like Jack Nicholson from the Shining. Thats a metaphor between the difference of MJ's highest scoring game, and Kobe's. And the funny thing is, the people who sent the KOBINATOR to earth....was his haters. Kobe was a nice guy before this, and he smiled ont he court. All the hate, all the obsticles he has over come so far in his career has given him this un-paralleled aggression and demeanor on the court. He will continue to kill you, even after you're dead, just to make sure you remember it. No remorse. That's what makes Kobe the baddest mother f'er in the league. You hate, that turns into fuel to kill EVERYONE. lol But enough with the funny talk. I just felt like being goofy.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

That's why I don't get how people clled Kobe selfish for scoring 81 ??? If you watched the game, Kobe wasn't out there looking to make himself look better, he was out there to kill and further embarass the opposistion. He wasn't looking up at the scoreboard and saying "I need 2 to pass Wilt...". He was upt here saying to himself, "How can I further kill and emberass these chumps infront of me? Maybe if I pull down Mo Pete's headband over his eyes and hit a 3, that will really emberass them... Or how about I increase our lead to 20...no, no, no How bout I score 10 more points on Jalen Rose and maybe his wife will leave him out of sheer emberassment." All the while Jalen Rose is out on the floor crying, lol. Crocodile Hunter: Once again, back into the mind of the deadly basketball mamba.. Kobe thinking "Hey, maybe if I score 81 points, Jalen will be made fun of by his kids.... everytime they ask Jalen if they can have money to go to the mall they will continually ask him for 81 dollars, and it will break his pride everytime." Kobe has to make the haters remember him, and fear him. That's what I love about dude. He's so misunderstood. Jordan would have been out there laughing, while Kobe is out there thinking of ways he can add more torture or how he is going to bury your body after the game. hahaha


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Lebron doesn't seem to be choking today..... At least not so far, he has been nasty in the 2nd half.


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## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

The MAMBA said:


> Why, thank you. But it's true, it it not? Kobe is the TERMINATOR. I mean MJ was a mean SOB on the bball floor, but he looks like prince charming compared to Kobe. AND I LOVE IT. Mike is my favorite player of all time. He would kill mother f'ers...then toy with them and break them mentally. He would beat them physically and would know that he was them beat, then would talk to them. Kobe doesn't do that. He beats them physically, then continues to kill them EVEN after they're dead. People say well Mike never scored 81...he didn't have to. He already had them beat, and he liked beating people mentally. A metaphor is this: Mike whould walk up to you talk to you while stabbing you in the heart and would end up with 60 points, makign the destroying a little easier to swallow. On the OTHER HAND... Kobe walks up to you, with red eyes no less, shanks you...doesn't say goodbye or offer condolences like MJ....then he proceeds to come back over your dead body and chop into it with an axe and keep hacking like Jack Nicholson from the Shining. Thats a metaphor between the difference of MJ's highest scoring game, and Kobe's. And the funny thing is, the people who sent the KOBINATOR to earth....was his haters. Kobe was a nice guy before this, and he smiled ont he court. All the hate, all the obsticles he has over come so far in his career has given him this un-paralleled aggression and demeanor on the court. He will continue to kill you, even after you're dead, just to make sure you remember it. No remorse. That's what makes Kobe the baddest mother f'er in the league. You hate, that turns into fuel to kill EVERYONE. lol But enough with the funny talk. I just felt like being goofy.



that's right, man...like lebron said, kobe will kill you and that's why he is so great.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

LeBron = owns


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

ROFL at this thread: Lebron James has made the entire Suns team his ***** in the fourth quarter


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## matt! (Feb 21, 2005)

LeBron = 16/31
Snow, Jones, Marshall, Gooden = 11/35

Thank god Sasha stepped up a little today. 

Despite 6 TO's, 40/10/6 with a 9 point lead with 1 minute left is okay in my book.


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## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

The fact remains Lebron cannot hit game-winners. Just because he has a good 4th quarter doesn't mean he can deal with the end of game pressure.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

matt! said:


> LeBron = 16/31
> Snow, Jones, Marshall, Gooden = 11/35
> 
> Thank god Sasha stepped up a little today.
> ...


LeBron is kicking major *** today.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

One on One said:


> The fact remains Lebron cannot hit game-winners. Just because he has a good 4th quarter doesn't mean he can deal with the end of game pressure.


 ROFL at this comment: every shot in the 4th quarter of a close game is important


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

He would have had a triple double if Marshall and Jones could shoot the damn ball.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

One on One said:


> The fact remains Lebron cannot hit game-winners. Just because he has a good 4th quarter doesn't mean he can deal with the end of game pressure.


Definition of a hater right here ladies and gentlemen.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

Hear hear! 



Pioneer10 said:


> ROFL at this comment: every shot in the 4th quarter of a close game is important


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## ninjarr (Jan 20, 2006)

I know what CiMa is trying to say about the stat comparison (irregardless of the importance of stats themselves, Lebron's numbers might be better) but independent of that, it's important to understand just how little stats mean. Right now, Kobe is usurping (has usurped) Duncan's spot as the best current player in the NBA. 

You can tell me about how Lebron's team kicks Kobe's team's ***, and I'd completely agree. There's no way the Lakers are contenders in the season of the Pistons, the Spurs, the Suns, the Cavs, the Mavs, and the Heat. But there is a difference between guiding a contender to the late-postseason and completely CARRYING a team of misfits to the playoffs.

This thread just goes to show how misleading stats are. Look at the stat that prompted this thread: 2-15. Lebron is the future of the NBA. Four more years of this production and postseason success will make him one of the stronger GOAT contenders. There is NO way you're going to tell me that 2-15 as a 21 year old in crunch time means a damn thing. But what is clear, from watching the games, is that Kobe has a far greater individual impact on games than Lebron.

Anyone watching a Cavs game and a Lakers game can see a huge difference in Lebron's and Kobe's roles. Lebron is amazing. He can do what he wants on the court, but is constrained by an offensive system, which works because of his strong teammates. Kobe has no restraints. He can, and DOES what he wants on the court because the only offensive system the Lakers are running is, "Give it to Kobe."

Now, I'm one of the biggest Kobe haters on the planet. I can hardly stand the guy; when he went for 81 the only thing going through my mind was "ballhog." I'll be the first to say that PJax scored more points in that game than Kobe did. When Lebron is Kobe's age, he'll be doing things Kobe, Magic, and Jordan only dreamed of. But right now, there ought be no doubt that Kobe Bryant wins more games than Lebron James, and consequently is the better player.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

CiMa said:


> Definition of a hater right here ladies and gentlemen.


Oh puhhleeze! As if u haven't exhibited just as much blind hate towards Kobe.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

Cavs look to be the 3rd best team in the east

they struggled without Hughes, but Lebron has found the answer. Looked like the beginning of a crash, and is now a 5 game winning streak. With Lebron, they are going to be huge threats come playoff time. If they get the 4th seed, which it looks like they will, I see a very good second round matchup with Detroit on the way.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

CiMa said:


> He would have had a triple double if Marshall and Jones could shoot the damn ball.


If any of the 11 other Lakers could shoot the ball, Kobe would average 2-3 more dimes per game. :biggrin: (j/k).



Everyone needs to chill right now. LOL


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## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

Pioneer10 said:


> ROFL at this comment: every shot in the 4th quarter of a close game is important


That is true. Shots get more and more important (mentally) as the game goes along. All I'm saying is Lebron has shown he can handle 4th quarter pressure, but he can't handle the heightened pressure of the last shot.


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## GTA Addict (Jun 27, 2005)

Bron dominated. 44/11/6 on above 50%, looked very active on the defensive end as well. He just keeps getting better and better.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

LeBron played very well today.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

madskillz1_99 said:


> Oh puhhleeze! As if u haven't exhibited just as much blind hate towards Kobe.


Blind hate? Everything I ever criticized Kobe for was justified. I always criticized him for taking too many shots and bad shots and at the time it was justified because the Lakers were losing. Now that he's winning more, there's not much more I can say about him negatively.

I've given him his props, he's the best in the league. But any hate I ever had was and is justified.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

The MAMBA said:


> If any of the 11 other Lakers could shoot the ball, Kobe would average 2-3 more dimes per game. :biggrin: (j/k).
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone needs to chill right now. LOL



lol this is different though. The Lakers just suck, Marshall and Jones are known for their shooting.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

CiMa said:


> Blind hate? Everything I ever criticized Kobe for was justified. I always criticized him for taking too many shots and bad shots and at the time it was justified because the Lakers were losing. Now that he's winning more, there's not much more I can say about him negatively.
> 
> I've given him his props, he's the best in the league. But any hate I ever had was and is justified.


Well, in that case, One one One's criticism is also justified. Lebron has had some issues with game winners, that is fact.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> Cavs look to be the 3rd best team in the east
> 
> they struggled without Hughes, but Lebron has found the answer. Looked like the beginning of a crash, and is now a 5 game winning streak. With Lebron, they are going to be huge threats come playoff time. If they get the 4th seed, which it looks like they will, I see a very good second round matchup with Detroit on the way.


 :clap: Good post.

The Cavs are a team of streaks, so we still obviously need to establish some consistency with our defensive effort. But overall as you allude to, the team is making strides.


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

I didnt know Carlito played for the Cavs


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

madskillz1_99 said:


> Well, in that case, One one One's criticism is also justified. Lebron has had some issues with game winners, that is fact.


On some levels yes, but if you read some of his other posts he goes as far to say LeBron will never be able to hit game winners thus never can be considered the GOAT, which is just either ignorance or pure hatred, especially considering LeBron is only 21 years old.


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## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

CiMa said:


> On some levels yes, but if you read some of his other posts he goes as far to say LeBron will never be able to hit game winners thus never can be considered the GOAT, which is just either ignorance or pure hatred, especially considering LeBron is only 21 years old.


I don't think I said "never" in any context other than sarcastic jokes because nobody can predict the future.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

One on One said:


> I don't think I said "never" in any context other than sarcastic jokes because nobody can predict the future.


Haha well if that's the case then my bad for misinterpreting you.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

As simply states as possible, LeBron kickes all kinds of a$$ on this church going day. Is he now suddenly clutch? I wouldn't say that yet, but he played better today in the 4th than he has in a long while. The big shot has yet to be seen.


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## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

CiMa said:


> Haha well if that's the case then my bad for misinterpreting you.


Actually, you're right I did say "never" but, when I say that, it's a prediction obviously cause I am not a close-minded fan. I don't know the future either.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

> With that being said, I'm gonna start calling Lebron Mr. 2 for 15. He will never be on Kobe or MJ's level cause he doesn't have "it" and he even admitted that. He might as well retire because Cleveland will remember him like they remember Earnest Byner.


Yeah see I thought you were being serious. Damn internet and it's sarcasm barriers.


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## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

I still don't think Lebron will ever be on Kobe's level, hah! But that's a prediction of course. You won't see no Amareca from me.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

One on One said:


> I still don't think Lebron will ever be on Kobe's level, hah! But that's a prediction of course. You won't see no Amareca from me.


hes already there, and is just getting better

36 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 4.4 apg on 45% for Kobe
31 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 6.3 apg on 49% for Lebron (before today's game)

Lebron also actually shoots better from 3 pt land

maybe he is not there at the end of the game yet, which I agree with, but all around he is right with Kobe as a player


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

The MAMBA said:


> As simply states as possible, LeBron kickes all kinds of a$$ on this church going day. Is he now suddenly clutch? I wouldn't say that yet, but he played better today in the 4th than he has in a long while. The big shot has yet to be seen.


That's not exactly true. LeBron normally is the Cavs go to man in the 4th quarter. Unfortunately he went through a short spell when he missed some free throws and even a few late shots. But fact is LeBron normally scores pretty good points in the 4th to help the team win and or stay in contention.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> hes already there, and is just getting better
> 
> 36 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 4.4 apg on 45% for Kobe
> 31 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 6.3 apg on 49% for Lebron (before today's game)
> ...


When will people learn that numbers don't tell the whole story? Lebron is not yet on Kobe's level. shhhh!!!


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

madskillz1_99 said:


> When will people learn that numbers don't tell the whole story? Lebron is not yet on Kobe's level. shhhh!!!


numbers are the best way to show a players production. You want +/-, well Lebron also leads the league in Roland Rating

so what seperates kobe from lebron in the way they are presently playing?


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## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

Pioneer10 said:


> ROFL at this comment: every shot in the 4th quarter of a close game is important


And extending that, every shot in all 4 quarters of a close game is important. We just happen to remember only the last few shots.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> numbers are the best way to show a players production. You want +/-, well Lebron also leads the league in Roland Rating
> 
> so what seperates kobe from lebron in the way they are presently playing?


The game isn't played by numbers and statistical equations. Kobe is better. LeBron even admitted to it. What's the problem with that?


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

The MAMBA said:


> The game isn't played by numbers and statistical equations. Kobe is better. LeBron even admitted to it. What's the problem with that?


I don't get into the Kobe and LeBron comparison much, but to say both are incredible players. In regards to LeBron saying Kobe is the better player, even if LeBron was averaging a triple-double like the Big O himself, he would probably still say Kobe is better than himself. That's just the type of person James is.


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## GTA Addict (Jun 27, 2005)

Uh oh....LeBron has a monster game and the thread turns into Bron vs. Kobe.

My take: Kobe is clearly better, but Bron is only a couple of improvements away from being right there with him. Bron's already a better rebounder and passer than Kobe ever was and he's putting up Michael Jordan numbers from the first 3peat. The major parts of his game that need improvement are finishing games strong (this will come with experience; even Kobe only hit 1 gamewinning shot his first 3.5 seasons in the league) and his defense. Other than that, it's just about getting more experience and polishing his game.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

The MAMBA said:


> The game isn't played by numbers and statistical equations. Kobe is better. LeBron even admitted to it. What's the problem with that?


Lebron really doesnt have an ego. I know you arent used to that being a Kobe fan, but thats just how it is. He isnt going to say anything about him being the best perimeter player in the game with kobe

and if production on the court doesnt show the game, or how the team performs with him on and off the floor doesnt show the game, what shows the game?

Laker fans love to say how good brons teammates are compared to Kobe, yet when Lebron is off the court his team is -10.6 and when kobe is off the court his team is -6.3. Why is that?


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

remy23 said:


> I don't get into the Kobe and LeBron comparison much, but to say both are incredible players. In regards to LeBron saying Kobe is the better player, even if LeBron was averaging a triple-double like the Big O himself, he would probably still say Kobe is better than himself. That's just the type of person James is.


Meh, I agree...but Kobe is still the better player. Hell, even if comes down to experience. Kobe is still better. Gotta love both though. Future of the league. The human video game players. LOL!!!


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> Lebron really doesnt have an ego. I know you arent used to that being a Kobe fan, but thats just how it is. He isnt going to say anything about him being the best perimeter player in the game with kobe


Oh, do I sense irony and subliminal personal shots? Getting grimey... And yes, LeBron is a nice kid and is willing to give praise. But LeBron certainly has an ego. ALL great ballplayers have an ego. You can't be effective without one. So, I imagine you probably never really played basketball at a high level if you didn't know this.



> and if production on the court doesnt show the game, or how the team performs with him on and off the floor doesnt show the game, what shows the game?


I didn't say it was meanigless...but isn't then end all be all either. You do realize this correct?



> Laker fans love to say how good brons teammates are compared to Kobe, yet when Lebron is off the court his team is -10.6 and when kobe is off the court his team is -6.3. Why is that?


Are you saying the Lakers team w/o Kobe is better than the Cavs w/o Bron? If so, that is just crazyness. Too much of these arguments just use stats, and once again, stats don't tell the whole story ALL the time.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

I can't really speak on the Lakers since I really don't get the chance to see them play very often, but I know that the Cavs are almost always just terrible when LeBron is not in the game. He is the primary playmaker with him off the floor they just tend to be lost.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

The MAMBA said:


> Are you saying the Lakers team w/o Kobe is better than the Cavs w/o Bron? If so, that is just crazyness. Too much of these arguments just use stats, and once again, stats don't tell the whole story ALL the time.


nope, im just saying that the Cavs depend on Lebron as much as the Lakers do Kobe. I just find it interesting that Lakers fans love to blast Kobe's teammates with every loss, when Lebron gets blasted by Laker fans with every loss and miscue on the court. In reality, the Lakers do better without kobe than the Cavs do without Lebron. I just find that to be an interesting statistic. 

with the other post, yea stats arent everything and I said before Kobe makes end of game shots more consistantly. My question still hasnt been answered....what seperates the two players?


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> Lebron really doesnt have an ego.











Nooo...... Lebron doesn't have an ego. Hardly....


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> what seperates the two players?


Kobe is a better scorer and defender, and is more clutch. And has a better work ethic. There. Happy?


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## STUCKEY! (Aug 31, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> Oh, do I sense irony and subliminal personal shots? Getting grimey... And yes, LeBron is a nice kid and is willing to give praise. But LeBron certainly has an ego. *ALL great ballplayers have an ego. You can't be effective without one.* So, I imagine you probably never really played basketball at a high level if you didn't know this.
> 
> I didn't say it was meanigless...but isn't then end all be all either. You do realize this correct?
> 
> Are you saying the Lakers team w/o Kobe is better than the Cavs w/o Bron? If so, that is just crazyness. Too much of these arguments just use stats, and once again, stats don't tell the whole story ALL the time.


So you are saying Tim Duncan isnt effective? :raised_ey


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## CHKNWANG321 (Sep 3, 2005)

madskillz1_99 said:


> Nooo...... Lebron doesn't have an ego. Hardly....


 lol, not at all. I think both players have big egos. Most if not all of them do, but neither of these players seems to be conceited or flagerantly egotistical. Lebron's tatoo is prolly the most egotistical thing you will ever see on him or hear him say


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

madskillz1_99 said:


> Kobe is a better scorer and defender, and is more clutch. And has a better work ethic. There. Happy?


Lebron is a better passer, rebounder, and team player, as well as the more efficient scorer

and better work ethic? Not sure about that one. Nothing has ever been said about Brons work ethic. So you live in Montral and travel to both practice arenas to see the two players work out? Very interesting

as for the tatoo, I was thinking the same thing when I posted that. Even though he has that tatoo, he has been very humble in interviews and such since entering the league. Look above, and even other Laker fans have noticed that is just that way he is.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> Lebron is a better passer, rebounder, and team player, as well as the more efficient scorer
> 
> and better work ethic? Not sure about that one. Nothing has ever been said about Brons work ethic. So you live in Montral and travel to both practice arenas to see the two players work out? Very interesting
> 
> as for the tatoo, I was thinking the same thing when I posted that. Even though he has that tatoo, he has been very humble in interviews and such since entering the league. Look above, and even other Laker fans have noticed that is just that way he is.


OK. you take Lebron, I'll keep Kobe. Deal?


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## CHKNWANG321 (Sep 3, 2005)

In the mist of all of this Lebron vs kobe vs jordan talk, i thought id post this picture








:cheers:


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## CHKNWANG321 (Sep 3, 2005)

Yah, i think that answers the question. Cavs fans love LBJ, and Lakers fans love Kobe. Thats how it should be.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

SHEED! said:


> So you are saying Tim Duncan isnt effective? :raised_ey


Well see, you don't understand there is a difference between showing emotion and having an ego. Having an ego is generally private. It's pride, etc. I'm sure Tim Duncan has an ego. To be a good player, you have to have one. Varying sizes however are different. But I'm sure Duncan has an ego. What you see on the court, and the lack of emotion does not give way to who does and doesn't have an ego.


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## STUCKEY! (Aug 31, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> Well see, you don't understand there is a difference between showing emotion and having an ego. Having an ego is generally private. It's pride, etc. I'm sure Tim Duncan has an ego. To be a good player, you have to have one. Varying sizes however are different. But I'm sure Duncan has an ego. What you see on the court, and the lack of emotion does not give way to who does and doesn't have an ego.


If your definiton of ego means they are confident then you have a good point but my definition of a ego means that they are cocky then you are way off.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

SHEED! said:


> If your definiton of ego means they are confident then you have a good point but my definition of a ego means that they are cocky then you are way off.


Touche, different meanings.


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## STUCKEY! (Aug 31, 2005)

Back on Topic!
To Call LeBron a Choker is outlandish(i think i spelled it right lol) Because you cant label someone until you have seen the whole piece of pie.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

madskillz1_99 said:


> When will people learn that numbers don't tell the whole story? Lebron is not yet on Kobe's level. shhhh!!!


 Lebron James is definitely on the same level as Kobe. One could make a good argument for each player, and one could certainly choose Kobe as better...but there's really no player in basketball who's on a "higher level" than Bron anymore.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*the longest post i've made in awhile*



> My question still hasnt been answered....what seperates the two players?


Watch the games. Three main things separate them:

1-*Defensive intensity*. LeBron has improved on this but he has a long way to go. Age right now is catching up to Kobe, but you have to remember that this is a guy, who in his younger days was capable of putting the clamps on speedy players such as Allen Iverson and Damon Stoudemire. He could legitimately stay with players who possessed Hall of Fame quickness and handling ability. Nowadays he can't do that anymore, but still in recent times he has locked up such prolific scorers like Vince Carter, Michael Redd, and Ray Allen. When its crunch-time one can count on Kobe to be on the other team's best perimeter player. I haven't seen LeBron key into a guy, and take him completely out of the game, to the point where one says "Hey I wonder where so&so went...". Kobe Bryant is a top five defender at his position. Nobody would dare say LeBron is top-five defensively at his.

Now one might say there is more than one-on-one defense. This is true. However one-on-one defense is the first line of defense, and the most important to a team aspiring to be championship caliber. Look at San Antonio or Detroit. Kobe Bryant could go there and fit right in defensively. Maybe even improve them. Could LeBron? When a player has the ability to guard his man straight-up, that enables to help to key in on the side where another guy might not be as strong defensively. This is why the Indiana Pacers are so shattered without Ron Artest holding down the fort. And make no mistake about it, Kobe is closer to that class of defender than LeBron will ever be. The defensive hunger is absent in him.

2-*Offensive skill*. LeBron is the better passer all-around by a slight margin (Vince Carter is as well), but Kobe Bryant is one of the best at feeding the post in the game. However when it comes to scoring the ball and recognizing the defense, Kobe Bryant blows the next best out of the water. This is a guy who knows how to run the triangle offense, ranked along with the Princeton as one of the most difficult to master. In the half-court Kobe Bryant can do it all. Break you down with both hands, the high-post game, the three-ball, the mid-range game, finishing with either hand (with fluid creativity I might add), and the MJ fadeaway from the post. And draw shooting fouls. He is tops in the league in free-throws attempted and made. Kobe has the ability to put up LeBron's best game in one-half, and is one of the best five scorers to ever play this game. There is no comparison, regardless of statistics shown.

In my view, LeBron is more of a fast-break, secondary-break type of player...he will look to see if the defense is back and then make his move. If not, he passes the ball into Zydrunas. To his credit his shooting has improved dramatically, but teams will still give him that without hesitation. When the game slows down to a half-court pace, all LeBron has to go to is the screen-roll. When the shot-clock is winding down teams are going to trap that everytime. That leads to stagnancy since teams know what your pet-move is, and will it away from you in an instant. His post-game is making progress but he is still an incomplete player offensively, despite his high FG%.

3-*Mental toughness*. There are two sides to a game...mental and physical. It comes up all the time, will this guy step up when we need him most? I.E. Can we rely on this player in crunch-time, to close it out for us, to bail us out when other guys are throwing the ball away and making dumb mistakes? Sure a guy can drain threes in the 2nd quarter with 5:43 to go. But what about in the 4th with less than a minute? For LeBron, the answer is a resounding no. As of now he is a player who is at his best when there is no pressure. If the spread is less than five in the fourth he seems to clam up, and just slams shut. He just can't do it. There has been isolated incidents of him coming up strong in the fourth (a three against the Pacers, 17th in the 4th last year against Phoenix) but all-in-all he is not a guy one can say is a closer. And this is just regular season games against teams like Portland and Indiana he looked plum scared of the ball. In the playoffs, there is nothing but pressure. Players key in on every shot, and coaches are screaming on every defensive mishap. Teams can game-plan to your weaknesses, offensive and defensive. The playoffs are where players become legend, and LeBron has a long-way to go since he hasn't even been there yet.

As for Kobe, well his name speaks for itself. The guy lives for the end. Off-hand I can name-drop five special games in crunch-time he has had, but that wouldn't be necessary because they are so known. The point here, is to demonstrate how far beyond LeBron James Kobe Bryant really is. Those who know the nuances of the game, know the truth of this statement.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> Dwyane Wade- 26.7 ppg, 6.1 rpg, 6.9 apg, 27.10 EFF, 48.3%, 2.0 spg, .8 bpg
> Vince Carter- 24.1 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 4.3 apg, 22.92 EFF, 44%, 1.1 SPG, .6 bpg
> 
> and yet some people are still blind.......


Lol! Which moran is trying to argue that half man half a season is better than Wade?


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Lebron James is definitely on the same level as Kobe. One could make a good argument for each player, and one could certainly choose Kobe as better...but there's really no player in basketball who's on a "higher level" than Bron anymore.


 :clap: Agreed 100%


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> Lebron James is definitely on the same level as Kobe. One could make a good argument for each player, and one could certainly choose Kobe as better...but there's really no player in basketball who's on a "higher level" than Bron anymore.


Kobe does some things better than Lebron. Lebron does some things better than Kobe. I think Kobe does a few things better that make him a slightly better player but Lebron is on his level. People that rave about Kobe's "clutchness" forget that he airballed 3 shots in a critical playoff game as a rookie. He's missed his fair share of gamewinners as well. Lebron just needs to relax and do what he does for the first 46 minutes of the game.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Lebron James is definitely on the same level as Kobe. One could make a good argument for each player, and one could certainly choose Kobe as better...but there's really no player in basketball who's on a "higher level" than Bron anymore.


Agree to disagree! :cheers:


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

> People that rave about Kobe's "clutchness" forget that he airballed 3 shots in a critical playoff game as a rookie.


He still took the shots, which LeBron has not done yet. And that's not to mention he was 18 years old around a team of full-grown men, fresh out of high-school. That's the very embodiment of mental pressure. In LeBron's case if you don't even give yourself a chance to make them, why even think about shooting?


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## cambyblockingyou (Nov 26, 2005)

sherako said:


> He still took the shots, which LeBron has not done yet. And that's not to mention he was 18 years old around a team of full-grown men, fresh out of high-school. That's the very embodiment of mental pressure. In LeBron's case if you don't even give yourself a chance to make them, why even think about shooting?


Not to mention that Carmelo Anthony has made those shots (and taken them) since he was a rookie.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

sherako said:


> He still took the shots, which LeBron has not done yet. And that's not to mention he was 18 years old around a team of full-grown men, fresh out of high-school. That's the very embodiment of mental pressure. In LeBron's case if you don't even give yourself a chance to make them, why even think about shooting?


 He didn't take the shot against the Lakers? He's hit two 3 pointers to tie the game in regulation.

THere's simply nothing for Lebron haters to really pick on so they have to go the "clutch" route when any Cleveland will tell you all the 4th quarters Lebron has saved them. Check out the clutch stats in 82games.com.

Anyone who says he doesn't play defense should also take a look at the Phoenix game: completely took Sean Marion out of the game in the second half and made the play of the day on the fast break block.

Also the whole 4th quarter should be watched for those that don't think Lebron is a half court player was Lebron walking the ball up the court to slow the tempo against the Suns and beating on Marion like a drum in the 4th quarter. Is he better in the full court game sure he is. But Lebron is more like Magic in this sense of the game: Magic could kill in the half court but it was in the fullcourt he was really special

The only thing that Kobe truly has on Lebron right now is free throw shooting. I'm not talking about "clutch" FT's either. Lebron for the last two months has been around a Shaq-like 60% from the FT stripe. He needs to improve this


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

cambyblockingyou said:


> Not to mention that Carmelo Anthony has made those shots (and taken them) since he was a rookie.


 Melo has never been and will never be as good as Lebron James


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## cambyblockingyou (Nov 26, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> Melo has never been and will never be as good as Lebron James


Well you say that so confidently, it must be true. I'm not going to hate on LeBron like you want me to, but Carmelo is a proven winner, an automatic scoring machine, and an improving defender that if you keep sleeping on you're going to wake up and wonder how you missed this young stud in his developing years. LeBron AND Carmelo are the future.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

cambyblockingyou said:


> Well you say that so confidently, it must be true. I'm not going to hate on LeBron like you want me to, but Carmelo is a proven winner, an automatic scoring machine, and an improving defender that if you keep sleeping on you're going to wake up and wonder how you missed this young stud in his developing years. LeBron AND Carmelo are the future.


Unfortunately for Melo, he will probably get lost in the shuffle ala Paul Pierce. There's just too many other studs that are likely going to be better than him.


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## cambyblockingyou (Nov 26, 2005)

CiMa said:


> Unfortunately for Melo, he will probably get lost in the shuffle ala Paul Pierce. There's just too many other studs that are likely going to be better than him.


No, only for haters. He's just as good.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

EltonBrandominatingyou2nightsinarow said:


> Not to mention that Carmelo Anthony has made those shots (and taken them) since he was a rookie.


 
Carmelo Anthony is basically just a scorer who gets a large percentage of his points in the open floor.He doesn't really get into this discussion


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

cambyblockingyou said:


> Well you say that so confidently, it must be true. I'm not going to hate on LeBron like you want me to, but Carmelo is a proven winner, an automatic scoring machine, and an improving defender that if you keep sleeping on you're going to wake up and wonder how you missed this young stud in his developing years. LeBron AND Carmelo are the future.


 For perimter players it will be Kobe/Tmac for another few years and maybe Pierce if he gets on a good team. AI of course but I have no idea how long he will last. Then Lebron with Wade behind but definitely up there.

Melo simply isn't as good as these guys: Hell the Nuggets get ahead of teams MORE when Melo is on the bench. LOL he's got a negative +/- ratio:

<table bgcolor="#cccccc" border="0" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#efefef"><td bgcolor="#33cc33"><center>*Player*</center></td> <td><center>*On Court
+/-*</center></td> <td><center>*Off Court
+/-*</center></td> <td><center>*Team Net
+/-*</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"> Watson</td> <td><center> +7.2</center></td> <td><center> -2.6</center></td> <td><center> +9.8</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"> Miller</td> <td><center> +2.8</center></td> <td><center> -4.4</center></td> <td><center> +7.3</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"> Martin</td> <td><center> +1.4</center></td> <td><center> +0.7</center></td> <td><center> +0.8</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"> Najera</td> <td><center> +1.2</center></td> <td><center> +0.8</center></td> <td><center> +0.5</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"> Elson</td> <td><center> +1.2</center></td> <td><center> +0.9</center></td> <td><center> +0.3</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"> Kleiza</td> <td><center> +1.2</center></td> <td><center> +1.0</center></td> <td><center> +0.2</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"> Lenard</td> <td><center> +0.4</center></td> <td><center> +1.1</center></td> <td><center> -0.7</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"> Camby</td> <td><center> +0.5</center></td> <td><center> +1.3</center></td> <td><center> -0.9</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"> Johnson</td> <td><center> +0.2</center></td> <td><center> +1.3</center></td> <td><center> -1.1</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"> Hodge</td> <td><center> -1.9</center></td> <td><center> +1.0</center></td> <td><center> -2.9</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"> Boykins</td> <td><center> -0.5</center></td> <td><center> +2.4</center></td> <td><center> -2.9</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"> Buckner</td> <td><center> -1.5</center></td> <td><center> +2.7</center></td> <td><center> -4.3</center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"> Anthony</td> <td><center> -1.2</center></td> <td><center> +7.3</center></td> <td><center> -8.5</center></td></tr></tbody></table>
www.82games.com


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

EltonBrandominatingyou(twice) said:


> Not to mention that Carmelo Anthony has made those shots (and taken them) since he was a rookie.


 
How does Carmelo get to be talked about in the same context as Lebron?Mostly he just scores on the fast break.If you want a thread comparing Lebron to Carmelo go right ahead.I'm sure you could find someone else that would be willing to argue it.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

cambyblockingyou said:


> No, only for haters. He's just as good.


As good as whom?

Look at today's top players. Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Kobe, LeBron, T-Mac, Iverson, Carter. Pierce is pretty damn good himself, heck he's even been to the playoffs he knows what it's about, but he gets lost in the shuffle.

When I look at the future I'm seeing Dirk, Kobe, LeBron, T-Mac, Carter, Wade, Amare, Dwight Howard, Greg Oden, maybe even Chris Bosh, etc. Melo, like Pierce is pretty damn good but unfortunately will likely get lost in the shuffle.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> So you live in Montral and travel to both practice arenas to see the two players work out? Very interesting


Yeah, then I later join him from Hong Kong witness Wade cant buy a 3 point shot in practice. Then I was being some *SS that asked Wade if he ever cares about some scrub poster who is just a Wade homer who is only 18, PM me if u want to know the answer.


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## madskillz1_99 (Dec 5, 2004)

John said:


> Yeah, then I later join him from Hong Kong witness Wade cant buy a 3 point shot in practice. Then I was being some *SS that asked Wade if he ever cares about some scrub poster who is just a Wade homer who is only 18, PM me if u want to know the answer.


LOL. I love it!


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## cambyblockingyou (Nov 26, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> For perimter players it will be Kobe/Tmac for another few years and maybe Pierce if he gets on a good team. AI of course but I have no idea how long he will last. Then Lebron with Wade behind but definitely up there.
> 
> Melo simply isn't as good as these guys: Hell the Nuggets get ahead of teams MORE when Melo is on the bench. LOL he's got a negative +/- ratio:


unadjusted +/- doesn't mean jack, and everyone know that. Carmelo doesn't get a lot of minutes when Boykins, the best running PG on our team (and we're a running team) is on the court. This is because Boykins is our only other good scorer, so we keep 1 on the court at all times usually. So Carmelo winds up playing more when our team is in more half-court sets, and thus we don't score as much being a full-court team primarily. It has nothing to do with Carmelo's value to the team, any blindman can tell that, but the style we play and the pieces we have.

If you honestly think Francisco Elson is better than Carmelo that's YOUR problem, and i shouldn't waste any more time talking to you.


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## cambyblockingyou (Nov 26, 2005)

Diable said:


> How does Carmelo get to be talked about in the same context as Lebron?Mostly he just scores on the fast break.If you want a thread comparing Lebron to Carmelo go right ahead.I'm sure you could find someone else that would be willing to argue it.


That's patently absurd, Carmelo gets the vast majority of his points in the paint and at the line. They mid-range jumpers, THEN transition. LeBron gets at least as many of his points in transition as Carmelo does. That's just ridiculous.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: the longest post i've made in awhile*



sherako said:


> Watch the games. Three main things separate them:
> 
> 1-*Defensive intensity*. LeBron has improved on this but he has a long way to go. Age right now is catching up to Kobe, but you have to remember that this is a guy, who in his younger days was capable of putting the clamps on speedy players such as Allen Iverson and Damon Stoudemire. He could legitimately stay with players who possessed Hall of Fame quickness and handling ability. Nowadays he can't do that anymore, but still in recent times he has locked up such prolific scorers like Vince Carter, Michael Redd, and Ray Allen. When its crunch-time one can count on Kobe to be on the other team's best perimeter player. I haven't seen LeBron key into a guy, and take him completely out of the game, to the point where one says "Hey I wonder where so&so went...". Kobe Bryant is a top five defender at his position. Nobody would dare say LeBron is top-five defensively at his.
> 
> ...


lol, this guy will be one of the better poster in this forum when he reaches his prime.


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## cambyblockingyou (Nov 26, 2005)

CiMa said:


> As good as whom?
> 
> Look at today's top players. Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, Kobe, LeBron, T-Mac, Iverson, Carter. Pierce is pretty damn good himself, heck he's even been to the playoffs he knows what it's about, but he gets lost in the shuffle.
> 
> When I look at the future I'm seeing Dirk, Kobe, LeBron, T-Mac, Carter, Wade, Amare, Dwight Howard, Greg Oden, maybe even Chris Bosh, etc. Melo, like Pierce is pretty damn good but unfortunately will likely get lost in the shuffle.


Yeah, ok, Chris freaking Bosh is the future and Carmelo isn't. Showing your hatred right here, it seems.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

cambyblockingyou said:


> Yeah, ok, Chris freaking Bosh is the future and Carmelo isn't. Showing your hatred right here, it seems.


Don't really see how I'm hating. I'm just stating what I believe to be true. I think you're bitter about something.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

cambyblockingyou said:


> If you honestly think Francisco Elson is better than Carmelo that's YOUR problem, and i shouldn't waste any more time talking to you.


If you honestly think Carmelo Anthony is as good, or nearly as good, as LeBron James, that's YOUR problem.

Carmelo Anthony is an excellent young player. There's no way he's James' equal, though, despite the hype of a "rivalry" between the two when they were drafted. They were close in their rookie seasons, but James has completely separated himself since.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

****ing Kobe, he ruined everything. Here's some reactions from LeBron's performance:



> In 6 shining seconds, LeBron James made a block at one end, a dunk at the other and left a lasting memory of greatness.
> 
> "It was unbelievable," said Phoenix guard Leandro Barbosa.





> "I was like, 'Holy Moley!" Cavs coach Mike Brown said. "That was one of the most athletic plays I've ever seen."





> "He made a million highlights in a very short time," said reigning league MVP Steve Nash, who led Phoenix with 24 points.





> "I never saw him," said Barbosa, who started for the injured Raja Bell. "I asked coach, 'How did he do that?' My teammates said I was dribbling like crazy and he still caught me. All of a sudden, he's at the other end."


And no one cares. It's like, oh wow LeBron scored 40 points big ****ing deal. It's like no one cares about 40 point games anymore, they're slowly turning into 30 point games as far as people giving a crap.

Finally, here's something interesting about Bron's performance.



> During the Cavs' winning streak, James is averaging 37.2 points, 7.8 rebounds and 7.6 assists, and his 44-point, 11-rebound, 7-assist effort has only been matched by Michael Jordan, Larry Bird and Hakeem Olajuwon since 1991-92.


I don't know how ESPN pulls all these random stats out of their ***, but it's damn impressive none the less.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Bron is seemingly in that Jordan zone where huge performances just don't register. They're part of the expected fabric of the NBA.


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## grizzos (Jan 31, 2005)

44 points isnt too bad.. thats only like 11 less than what kobe scores in one half :angel: 


Good game bron.. about time u made some shots late in the 4th


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## cambyblockingyou (Nov 26, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> If you honestly think Carmelo Anthony is as good, or nearly as good, as LeBron James, that's YOUR problem.
> 
> Carmelo Anthony is an excellent young player. There's no way he's James' equal, though, despite the hype of a "rivalry" between the two when they were drafted. They were close in their rookie seasons, but James has completely separated himself since.


I disagree. Here is the breakdown, IMO. Scoring: paint/postup - Carmelo, mid-range jumper - Carmelo, 3-pointer - LeBron, slashing - LeBron, free throws - Carmelo, transition - LeBron (but very close), clutch - Carmelo. Passing - LeBron. Rebounding - about equal. Man defense - Carmelo, help defense - equal (equally non-existent). Now keep in mind that i'm not adding up the parts and saying that's my determination, as obviously the gaps in some of these areas are larger than others (for example the gap for LeBron passing or Carmelo's free throws are larger than some others). Also taking into account their age is very similar, i think LeBron is about 8 months younger, and also that both are uniquely gifted physically, as neither McGrady, Pierce, Kobe, or anyone for that matter had those types of bodies that young. I think they are very comparable players right now and will be in the future. Should be a good rivalry for years to come, provided that they both have good clubs.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

cambyblockingyou said:


> Now keep in mind that i'm not adding up the parts and saying that's my determination, as obviously the gaps in some of these areas are larger than others


Some are also entirely made up, like "clutch." It would be just as valid to create a bunch of imaginary categories like "leadership," "heart," "determination" and give them all to James.

Melo was the better individual defender, because James didn't play any. Now, James plays close to average man defense and Melo hasn't improved from that same general level. There's really no edge to either player in man defense. James plays better off-the-ball defense, as he racks up steals in the passing lanes. Melo, as you note, doesn't play much or any help defense.

James is the far more efficient and prolific scorer.

They're equivalent rebounders.

James is a much better passer.

Therefore, when one looks at the major aspects of basketball, James is far and away superior. He has a slight edge in defense, a big edge in scoring, a huge edge in passing and rebounds equivalently well.

I like Carmelo a lot, and I'd love to have him on my team. But James is on a top-ten player of all-time track, while Anthony is on a perennial All-Star track. Which is still excellent, but at least an order of magnitude lower. It's the difference between a Dominique Wilkins and Michael Jordan.


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## cambyblockingyou (Nov 26, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> Some are also entirely made up, like "clutch." It would be just as valid to create a bunch of imaginary categories like "leadership," "heart," "determination" and give them all to James.


What is imaginary about it. Carmelo has hit 7 or 11 shots with less than 20 seconds left to tie or take the lead. LeBron has hit 2 or 15. That's not imaginery, that's a fact. Of course when you try and pretend like a particular weakness doesn't exist because that aspect of basketball doesn't, that's just absurd.



> Melo was the better individual defender, because James didn't play any. Now, James plays close to average man defense and Melo hasn't improved from that same general level. There's really no edge to either player in man defense. James plays better off-the-ball defense, as he racks up steals in the passing lanes. Melo, as you note, doesn't play much or any help defense.


I don't really buy that steals help your team more than they hurt you. James goes for steals and if he misses his man is left open and therefore the team can score easier. But "ok" i'll give you the slight edge on "help" defense, but that's not enough to make up for Carmelo's overall advantage on defense.

As for James improving on man and Carmelo not... that's the first I've ever heard someone say that. When Carmelo got into the league that's the primary thing people hated on him about. But he's improved dramatically, especially THIS YEAR alone. He is now able to lock down players who try to take him off the dribble. For example in the Suns game with the game tied Nash had the ball and Carmelo locked him down, saving overtime. That was on a fairly quick PG. He's improved dramatically.

If you're going to say that James has improved defensively you're going to have to throw out some specifics, because I don't see it. He gets burned all the time in ISO situations (which Carmelo never does), and is still as bad as ever on pick and rolls. The only time I see him as effective on defense is when opponents simply try to shoot over him.



> James is the far more efficient and prolific scorer.


Woooo, wooo here. We're talking about who's *better* here. Yeah, if you watch the two teams LeBron gets the ball on every possession, while Carmelo plays in an offense that _runs plays_, sometimes those plays don't involve him getting the ball. But when Carmelo gets the ball he's every bit as effective at scoring it. And he is a much better free throw shooter.



> Therefore, when one looks at the major aspects of basketball, James is far and away superior. He has a slight edge in defense, a big edge in scoring, a huge edge in passing and rebounds equivalently well.


I gave you passing, but the 1 area, scoring you just made a quick assertion and didn't even get into the specifics, which I did.



> I like Carmelo a lot, and I'd love to have him on my team. But James is on a top-ten player of all-time track, while Anthony is on a perennial All-Star track. Which is still excellent, but at least an order of magnitude lower. It's the difference between a Dominique Wilkins and Michael Jordan.


No.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> I like Carmelo a lot, and I'd love to have him on my team. *But James is on a top-ten player of all-time track*, while Anthony is on a perennial All-Star track. Which is still excellent, but at least an order of magnitude lower. It's the difference between a Dominique Wilkins and Michael Jordan.


Please, PLEEEEAAAAASE, don't say it.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I have to say that is one of the most extensive exercises in Homerism I have ever seen.Just so long as you believe it you should be very proud of yourself.Of course on the other hand Lebron is 2nd in the league in efficiency behind Garnette and Carmelo is 34th behind Ben Wallace,Brad Miller and Michael Redd among others.


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## cambyblockingyou (Nov 26, 2005)

Ok, I see i'm talking to the LeBron choir here. I'll just stay off this topic for the next month or so.

By the way, I encourage people to visit other boards from time to time. You'll notice that each develops their own "truth" about players who most people accept as fact. Then you go somewhere else and they have slightly different board-opinion on the subject. It really makes you question how much you should let consensus-opinion play into your own opinions. I know that group-opinion is here as well, as this is now the second person who's tried to say that clutchness doesn't exist (as if players can't be better or worse than average at the last part of close games), and that's something that i've never heard argued anywhere else, so my guess is that these two people didn't develop this opinion independently. 

Alright, I'm done with this topic for a while now, you all have a good time with it and with everything else. Go nugz!


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

cambyblockingyou said:


> What is imaginary about it. Carmelo has hit 7 or 11 shots with less than 20 seconds left to tie or take the lead. LeBron has hit 2 or 15. That's not imaginery, that's a fact. Of course when you try and pretend like a particular weakness doesn't exist because that aspect of basketball doesn't, that's just absurd.


There's really no such thing as "clutch." It's an imaginary characteristic that people use to add a nobility or deficit of character depending on whether they like or dislike the player. Players who reach the pinnacle of professional competition have been through plenty of pressure and, if they can't handle it, get weeded out. "2 for 15" is an artificial statistic created by cherry-picking specific instances and creating a such a small sample that the result is meaningless. The first missed free throw the other night was "choking" but the second made free throw wasn't "clutch." Missing a game-winner is "choking" but scoring ten points in the final three minutes to turn a close loss into a close win isn't "clutch." Sorry, that's garbage.



> As for James improving on man and Carmelo not... that's the first I've ever heard someone say that. When Carmelo got into the league that's the primary thing people hated on him about. But he's improved dramatically, especially THIS YEAR alone. He is now able to lock down players who try to take him off the dribble. For example in the Suns game with the game tied Nash had the ball and Carmelo locked him down, saving overtime. That was on a fairly quick PG. He's improved dramatically.


Anthony's defense was substandard when he entered the league, but ahead of James'. Maybe I exaggerated when I said he hadn't improved "at all," but he hasn't made particularly great strides. He was below average to start and he's still slightly below average.

James has improved from way below average to slightly below average. He used to get beaten off the dribble every time (and subsquently go for the block from the trail position), and now he gets beaten with less regularity. He used to be burned by screens constantly, now he makes much better decisions on whether to go over or under screens. He used to gamble for steals exlcusively, on his man, and now he stays at home and his footwork is much quicker and more active, allowing him to stay with his man more effectively. He's definitely improved greatly.



> Woooo, wooo here. We're talking about who's *better* here.


Yes, that's what I'm talking about too. James is a _better_ scorer, because he scores more _at a greater efficiency_. It's harder to keep the efficiency high over more shots, which is why James' greater number of points per game is important.



> I gave you passing, but the 1 area, scoring you just made a quick assertion and didn't even get into the specifics, which I did.


Breaking it down to jump-shooting, post play, etc, completely misses the point. The point is who puts the ball in the basket more effectively. You could play the same game with a prime Shaquille O'Neal and Carmelo Anthony. Anthony is a better jump shooter, perimeter shooter and slasher than a prime O'Neal. O'Neal "only" wins post play. Anthony must be a better scorer than a prime Shaquille O'Neal, by that logic. Unfortunately, though, that logic is completely invalid. It really doesn't matter who "wins" more categories. What matters is who scores the ball more effectively, when discussing scoring.

James has the higher eFG% (and TS%, as far as I've heard, but I don't have access to that stat), all while scoring more points per game. He's clearly the better scorer.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

cambyblockingyou said:


> What is imaginary about it. Carmelo has hit 7 or 11 shots with less than 20 seconds left to tie or take the lead. LeBron has hit 2 or 15. That's not imaginery, that's a fact.


Too bad for Melo that games aren't less than twenty seconds long. Otherwise he'd be one of the all-time greats.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

grizzos said:


> 44 points isnt too bad.. thats only like 11 less than what kobe scores in one half :angel:
> 
> 
> Good game bron.. about time u made some shots late in the 4th



Lebron also had 11 rebounds and 7 assits... which u rarely ever see from kobe...


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## GTA Addict (Jun 27, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> James has the higher eFG% (and TS%, as far as I've heard, but I don't have access to that stat), all while scoring more points per game. He's clearly the better scorer.


http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2006/ 

Great site. Lists current leaders in most of the advanced stats and up-to-date team offensive/defensive efficiency.

Bron: .580 TS% -- not since MJ has a player scored 30+ ppg on this kind of efficiency. Bron is putting up more points than a prime Shaq while maintaining Shaq's efficiency.

Melo: .550 TS% (still great efficiency)


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

VC_15 said:


> Lebron also had 11 rebounds and 7 assits... which u rarely ever see from kobe...


Of course you rarely see 81 points from Bron either. Two very diffrent types of players, who are both working toward the same end of getting the team wins.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Of course you rarely see 81 points from Bron either. Two very diffrent types of players, who are both working toward the same end of getting the team wins.



it's not like Kobe going to score 81 on a nightl basis..... Lebron will put up 30/8/8 kind of numbers on a nightly basis...Lebron today was just amazing... especially on that play where he blocked the shot and took the ball and dunked it on the other end..


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

GTA Addict said:


> http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2006/
> 
> Great site. Lists current leaders in most of the advanced stats and up-to-date team offensive/defensive efficiency.
> 
> ...


 Awesome. Thanks much.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

VC_15 said:


> ... especially on that play where he blocked the shot and took the ball and dunked it on the other end..


Yeah that entire sequence took 6 seconds from one end to the other. His speed is unreal. When you factor in it was Barbosa he ran down from behind, it gets even more impressive, because Barbosa is one of the fastest people in the league with the baskeball. To block the shot, and then turn around with the ball run up the court and dunk it, is an incredible athletic achievement.

Did you see the play he banged his knee on? If he had tried, he could have jumped over the dude. He probably would have clotheslined himself on the rim, but his knees where above I think Barbosa or Jones' head. That play right there is why Lebron lays it up more than a lot of high flyers. He's definitely cognizant of the fact he could easily get undercut if he actually skyed while there were players around him. And it's a long ways down from there if he fell, and for a man his size...ouch. Probably wouldn't take too many falls like that to take him out for a few weeks.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Yeah that entire sequence took 6 seconds from one end to the other. His speed is unreal. When you factor in it was Barbosa he ran down from behind, it gets even more impressive, because Barbosa is one of the fastest people in the league with the baskeball. To block the shot, and then turn around with the ball run up the court and dunk it, is an incredible athletic achievement.
> 
> Did you see the play he banged his knee on? If he had tried, he could have jumped over the dude. He probably would have clotheslined himself on the rim, but his knees where above I think Barbosa or Jones' head. That play right there is why Lebron lays it up more than a lot of high flyers. He's definitely cognizant of the fact he could easily get undercut if he actually skyed while there were players around him. And it's a long ways down from there if he fell, and for a man his size...ouch. Probably wouldn't take too many falls like that to take him out for a few weeks.


By the way, how was that play not a foul? The other player was not only inside the restricted area but he was still moving after LeBron had elevated, thats what caused the contact. And, I'm still kinda shocked that LeBron didn't sink the basket.


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## 4BiddenKnight (Jun 23, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Did you see the play he banged his knee on? If he had tried, he could have jumped over the dude. He probably would have clotheslined himself on the rim, but his knees where above I think Barbosa or Jones' head. That play right there is why Lebron lays it up more than a lot of high flyers. He's definitely cognizant of the fact he could easily get undercut if he actually skyed while there were players around him. And it's a long ways down from there if he fell, and for a man his size...ouch. Probably wouldn't take too many falls like that to take him out for a few weeks.


This just shows you LeBron's basketball IQ. Repped.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

The OUTLAW said:


> By the way, how was that play not a foul? The other player was not only inside the restricted area but he was still moving after LeBron had elevated, thats what caused the contact. And, I'm still kinda shocked that LeBron didn't sink the basket.


I don't know. It was a very dangerous play and could have caused a very serious injury. Though they do that all the time in international basketball. I know that whoever was there didn't do it on purpose(unlike Billups on Jefferson last year), but players who undercut other players should have their fingers broken if the opposing player is injured and the play looks intentional. Remember when Danny Fortson took out Zarko? Pretty much changed that kid's career. I don't think he's been the same player since.


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## ninjarr (Jan 20, 2006)

The only reason you can put Carmelo on Lebrons level is because Carmelo's O game is much more polished. He has a beautiful post game, and certainly has one of the more effective outside Js for a SF. Right now, Lebron's offense is rough. When Carmelo catches the ball at 16 feet, he's either pulling up or backing his opponent down. With Lebron, however, he either pulls up or muscles his way into the lane to finish with contact.

Right now, Carmelo is playing at an All-Star level with his quickness, polish, and accuracy. Lebron is earning far more points at a wonderful percentage, however, using his strength, speed, size, and TALENT. Right now, people are lumping them together because they're both reliable, versatile forwards, but there is no way you're going to convince me that Carmelo is going to be better than a guy who earns 30-40 points on pure talent.

All that needs to be said is that if Lebron had someone like George Karl or PJax to put polish in his game, the name of this thread would be "lebron=goat?".


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> I don't know. It was a very dangerous play and could have caused a very serious injury. Though they do that all the time in international basketball. I know that whoever was there didn't do it on purpose(unlike Billups on Jefferson last year), but players who undercut other players should have their fingers broken if the opposing player is injured and the play looks intentional. Remember when Danny Fortson took out Zarko? Pretty much changed that kid's career. I don't think he's been the same player since.


LeBron was way up in the air and the arena just got deathly quiet. I hope that he's okay enough tomorrow to play. He was limping for quite a while afterward.


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