# trade idea



## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

Would really appreciate some feedback on this trade idea from Cavs and Laker fans.

Lakers trade:
Shaq
Sampson

Cavs trade:
Ilgauskis(spl?)
Eric Williams
Tony Battie
Carlos Boozer

Works salary cap wise btw.

Cavs new lineup:

Shaq,Diop,Boutjme
(free agent),Sampson
Brown,Newble
Lebron,Kapono
Mciniss,Wagner

Lakers new lineup:

Z,Battie
Boozer,Slava,Cook
George,Williams,Walton
Kobe,Rush
(Free agent),Fisher


First let me begin by saying. This trade would take place over the summer. Regardless if the Lakers if the Lakers win the title or not. Im one of those Laker fans that has a feeling that the Lakers may have to make major changes if they want to keep Kobe in a Lakers uni. Payton and Karl more than likely wont be back. The Lakers have yet to offer Shaq a contract extension. I believe that's happened for a reason. Shaq has 2 or 3 really solid seasons left in him. I dont believe the Lakers want to invest too much more money in Shaq. 

I believe they will take the steps to rebuild around Kobe. That's why I believe the Lakers would look at a deal such as the one above. Lakers lose the most dominate force in the league. However, they get back nice size in return. Along with youth and upside. Players that would fit Kobe's style of play, IMO.

Cavs do this trade because Shaq would make them immediate contenders. Especially in the East. Shaq would dominate. Lebron would have a great big man to help take pressure off of him. Shaq+Lebron=EVEN BIGGER BOX OFFICE in Cleveland. The Cavs would actually contend for the title for 2 or 3 years to come.

So Cavs fans, would you like a trade like this?

Laker fans, do you think Kobe could lead this group of young guys to the playoffs? Possibly the finals coming out of the tough Western Conf?

One more thing. Laker fans, i checked out the list of free agent point guards for next season. The name that popped out at me was Steve Nash. How would Nash look in the purple and gold?

Thoughts?


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## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

:laugh: 
i wont even respond to that


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

Lakers truly need to look at the future. Shaq is not the player he once was. They would get THREE SOLID bigs in return for Shaq. They wont get KG or Duncan. That's fantasy. I think they could do a lot worse than the trade i proposed. 

Wont be a pretty sight if Kobe walks and we're stuck with Shaq and his knick knack injuries. While we're paying a 37 year old center max money. :no:


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## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

and Ilgauskis isnt either


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

Z's contract ends after next season. And he wont be making 28 and 30mil on the last two years of his deal. So thats 16mil off the books. So for a season you rent a 7'3 center with skill. Not too bad if you ask me. Boozer is going to be a freakin stud. Battie is has nice size. Can board and defend. Williams is a nice role player. Lakers would make out fantastic in this deal, IMO.


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## Brian34Cook (Mar 26, 2003)

Meh I'll take Boozer for Shaq :uhoh:


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## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

even if he isnt the same shaq he still is the most dominating center in the nba and no a 7'5 jump shooting white guy doesnt count


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

Im sorry. I dont see it as such. Shaq is in decline. And declining fast. Injuries,age and rule changes have taken their toll on the Big Fella. Shaq hasnt truly dominated a game since 2001. I love the guy. But i love the Laker organization more. And it would be in the Lakers best interest to get something for Shaq. Some value. And begin to rebuild this team around Kobe next year.


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## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

lets not forget kobe could be playing in another state next year


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

Not if the Lakers make it clear to him that they are ready to make this his team.

you choose.

32 year old injury riddled center who's crying about not getting a 3 year max extension that will completely destroy this team in the future.

or

24 year old, best player in the league, who's just entering his prime. 

I hate to say it. But i think the Lakers are going to have to make this decision. And to me. There is no competition. Care about this franchises present AND FUTURE.


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## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

im sorry maybe you dont relize that the lakers would love #8 back but thats not their choice its his and if they lose shaq kobe becomes the next tmac


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

Its really interesting how everyone just knows exactly what's going to become of Kobe without Shaq. Why is it he's always compared to those who have failed?

Its fine, you have your opinion and i have mine. This constant back and forth is not going to get us anywhere. Its obvious you dont agree with my take and i cant change your views. You surely wont change mine.

Im of a firm belief if the Lakers surround Kobe with some solid talent. Kobe can lead a team to great things. Great, great things. And with 20+mil in cap space available in 2 years. The Lakers would be able to do just that.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Good trade idea!!!


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## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

it is isnt it


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

:banghead: 

Not only are you trading the guy that hand delivered three titles... but he is still arguably the most valuable player in the league and you don't even get a all-star caliber player. Trading Shaq will ruin the Lakers reputation around the league, and if you think that isn't a big deal look at the Bulls. 

The Lakers didn't make Magic president because he knows a lot about hoops (though he did bring Slava in).


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

If the Lakers trade Shaq, even if they sign back Kobe they wont even make the playoffs with that team you posted. What makes them any better than the Cavs this year, besides Kobe being an upgrade on Lebron? Even if there is something that makes them a little better than the Cavs, you have to take into account that Lakers are in the west. Cavs arent even going to make the playoffs in the east most likely. 

Are there even any good free agent PGs? 

If you're going to trade Shaq, get something better in return. Also be ready for the possiblity of Kobe leaving which would make that lineup you posted the worst team in the league. Having two LA teams not even make the playoffs would be disasterous considering how big of a market it is.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Forget it guys. This is one of the many Kobe fans that roam Lakerstalk and/or Lakersground crying that Kobe is the future of the team and that Shaq is a baby who should be traded.EDIT- Be more respectful of other posters

And please, Gary and Karl gone after this season? Says who? They signed 2 year contracts, and even if they have an opt out, there's absolutely no reason why they wouldn't go for more titles after they win it this June.


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## Sean (Jun 7, 2002)

Trade Shaq?

Unless the person coming to Lakers is Tim Duncan, Yao Ming, Dirk Nowitski, Paul Pierce, Tracy Mcgrady, Jason Kidd, KG, Jermaine Oneal, Ben Wallace or other equivalent all-star + change, forget about it. I'm not overvaluing Shaq or saying he is so much better than everyone else. I'm talking strictly his value now not only as a player, but also his contract. These types of trade suggestions may fly with the kids elsewhere on the internet, but BBB is the place for mature B-Ball discussion. Come up with a fair exchange including one the aforementioned names and we can discuss.

Peace.


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Forget it guys. This is one of the many Kobe fans that roam Lakerstalk and/or Lakersground crying that Kobe is the future of the team and that Shaq is a baby who should be traded.EDIT- Be more respectful of other posters
> 
> And please, Gary and Karl gone after this season? Says who? They signed 2 year contracts, and even if they have an opt out, there's absolutely no reason why they wouldn't go for more titles after they win it this June.


You know, i didnt catch your little insult before it was edited. Too bad. Would have loved to have read your EDIT- you didn't see it, so don't reply in a tone as if you did take. 

Look, if you dont agree, you dont agree. No reason to take it to an idiotic level with insults. Pathetic.

Anyway, back to the topic. Some Laker fans are so blind to what's right in front of their faces. The Lakers are on the verge of losing the best player in the league. On the verge of watching him walk out the door in favor of a 33 year old center who' s skills are in serious decline.

Who's the ones dreamin here?

Totally overvaluing Shaq's value right now. He's not the same player. Never will be. He's ALWAYS injured now days. He's rarely motivated.

When the Lakers are stuck with a bunch of aging stars and are mediocre at best. I wont say....I told you so.


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## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

Who CARES HE IS STILL SHAQ
#34
Shaquille O'Neal
CENTER FOR THE LAKERS

HE MAY NOT BE THE FUTURE BUT FOR NOW FORGET ABOUT THE FUTURE
AND LOOK AT THE PRESENT


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>longlivelal</b>!
> Who CARES HE IS STILL SHAQ
> #34
> Shaquille O'Neal
> ...


And its that kind of narrow minded thinking that will destroy this franchise for the next 10 to 12 years.

If you want a truly HEALTHY franchise. You worry about the present AND THE FUTURE. Its called having vision. Something Jerry West was and still is the absolute BEST at.

God i miss him.


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## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

ot:i would like to know your iq

:|

worry about that later now is not the time


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Look, we can win now with Shaq. We can't with Boozer and Z. Winning is the only thing that matters. It's more certain that we will win the title with Shaq now, than that we will win the title with Boozer and Z in the future.

Plus, the Cavs wouldn't do this deal, because they don't want to pay Shaq that kind of money, they'd have no PF, and they love Carlos Boozer.


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

OT: Probably a hell of a lot higher than yours.

What's really disturbing here is you guys who are defending Shaq to no end cant come with anything stronger than personal attacks against me.

What does that tell you?

Why dont you try staying on topic here for a change. And convince me that keeping a 33 year old center. Who's always injured. Who's game is no where near the level it once was. Who doesnt take working on his game and conditioning in the offseason serioulsy. Who wants a MAX extension that will pay him till he's 37-38 years old. 

Explain to me how the hell that's good for the Laker franchise?

Educate me on this please. Because for the life of me I cant understand how doing that and possibly watching Kobe, a 25 year old superstar. Best player in the game. Who will bust his *** during the season and offseasons. Who's going to give you everything he has, every single game. Walk to a team like the Spurs. Where he will team up with the likes of Duncan,Parker and Manu. And i GURANTEE you. The Lakers wont even SNIFF a title for 8 to 10 years if that happens. Or the Suns or Memphis or even the freakin Clippers is in the best interest of the Lakers?


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Kobe will not sign with the Spurs if he leaves the Lakers!!! It makes no sense to complain about Shaq taking all the shots, and then sign with the team that has Duncan, Ginobili and Parker. He wants to prove that he can win on his own? How can he do that with the Spurs?

Trading for Z is just a stupid idea. He is big, but he is too soft. All his shots are fadeaway jumpers and he is not a defensive presence. Shaq is the most dominant force in the game, and you do not trade someone like that. I don't care how many times they get injured. Plus, the Lakers will be able to talk Shaq into signing for less than $30+M or whatever he wants. He will be a Laker for life. After talking all the crap he has about every other team, do you really think he is going to sign with another team? Especially since he won't be able to if he wants $30M dollars! The only coach he will play for is Phil Jackson, and Phil Jackson is the Lakers coach. 

Shaq knows that the Lakers need Kobe, as much as he may not admit it. When FA comes around next season, Shaq will be fighting for Kobe to stay. Both of these guys will be Lakers for life.

Carlos Boozer may be around for longer than Shaq, but he is no where near the kind of player that Shaq is, or probably the kind of player that the Lakers could sign when Shaq retires. And believe me, when Shaq retires, the Lakers will be signing big name FAs. Los Angeles is a winning franchise that can attract many players and we do not need to worry about the future. 

As long as we have Shaq, we will be among the NBA's elite. Like I said, when he retires, we will have a lot of flexibility. People say the Lakers aren't in good shape for the future...but they'll be fine.

Stop getting your panties in a twist and just worry about this season, that's all that matters. We'll worry about the future when it comes around.


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## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

thank god i thought the world had gone retarted, stupid
dumb 
you get the point b34c


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## Brian34Cook (Mar 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>longlivelal</b>!
> thank god i thought the world had gone retarted


Retarted? :rofl:


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## bballer27 (Aug 21, 2003)

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: no way would that trade ever happen.


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## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Brian34Cook</b>!
> 
> 
> Retarted? :rofl:


:upset: 

:soapbox:


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> 
> 
> And its that kind of narrow minded thinking that will destroy this franchise for the next 10 to 12 years.
> ...


And in the process screw over the guy that left his team and fought for you and gave your starving city its first title in over a decade. How is that healthy? I can sit here and debate the basketball ascpects of this trade, or how trading Shaq is not necessary for Kobe staying, but if the main reason not to trade Shaq is that the Lakers pristine reputation on being a classy front office will be shattered like the Bulls in 98 when they showed Jordan the door with their "organizations win titles" mantra. You can no longer expect to sign guys like Payton and Malone to contracts the size of George and Fisher, you can forget about signing Steve Nash. Say hello to multiple lottery years and using your cap room to sign and trade for talented malcontents nobody wants like Ron Mercer and Jalen Rose.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> What's really disturbing here is you guys who are defending Shaq to no end cant come with anything stronger than personal attacks against me.


It's disturbing that you still think the Lakers should trade Shaq, the most dominant player in the game. 



> Why dont you try staying on topic here for a change. And convince me that keeping a 33 year old center.


He's 31 years old. At least look up your facts for god sakes. 



> Who's always injured.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Cris (Jun 18, 2003)

why this thread has 30+ replies i dont know but 75% of them are people saying how bad this trade is, the other 25% is the owner of the thread


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

> It's disturbing that you still think the Lakers should trade Shaq, the most dominant player in the game.


Obviously you dont see the writing on the wall as I do. IMO, Shaq has at best 2 good years left in him. The injuries are becoming much more frequent. He isnt as effective as he used to be. He's missing way more chippies than he used to. He refuses to play the screen and roll to save his life. His lack of motivation has increased more and more with each passing year. IMO, he's lazy and doesnt have the same fire he once had. For ALL those reasons I believe it would be in the Lakers best interest to trade Shaq and get something for him while they still can. Go after the title this season. Then realize their future is wearing the #8 jersey. Not Shaq. Thats the simple truth. Some Laker fans dont want to face the reality that the M.D.E, really isnt as dominate as he once was. This is not saying im not a fan of Shaq or what he's done for the Lakers. Im just willing to see what's right in front of my face.



> He's 31 years old. At least look up your facts for god sakes.


Actually he's 32. Will be 33 in March.





> False and mostly a comment based in absolutely no reality, via stats or general consensus. Don’t just make blanket statements without supporting facts or evidence. Shaq isn’t as good as he was in 2000, but “no where near the level he once was”? Puh-lease. Embellishment gets you nowhere, and is why people aren’t taking you seriously in this thread.


Taken seriously or not. It doesnt change what ive seen over the past two seasons. And that is Shaq's attitude toward the game and his conditioning is horrible. It was his..."I got injured on company time...so i'll heal on company time"...that killed the Lakers last season. You may see it differently. But I dont. By him deciding to wait till freakin preseason to have his toe surgery. Then work his way into playing shape during the season(which never happened btw) is what i feel cost the Lakers the 4 peat. If he came with HALF the dedication and determination that Kobe did last season FROM DAY ONE. The Lakers make history. Period. He didnt. And the Lakers watched the Spurs take home the title.





> That’s true, though it’s not nearly as bad as many fans make it seem to be. Some people are angry that he came to camp out of shape last season after surgery, and yet these same people can’t admit that Kobe did the exact same thing this season after surgery. Surgery on your feet or knees makes it difficult to really get in a proper workout.


You say that as if last season was the ONLY season Shaq has come into camp out of shape. That simply is NOT true. Shaq had gotten progressively worse following the 2000 season. Phil's first season here, Shaq came in lean, mean and ready to kick *** from the first preseason game till game 6 of the finals. And he did just that. However the following seasons after the first title, Shaq's conditioning and training have gotten worse and worse. That's fact. Seriously, dont you think if Shaq took better care of himself during the offseason these little "knick knack" injuries wouldnt continue to surface? If Shaq had taken care of his body in the past, it wouldnt be breaking down now. Slowly but surely that's what we are seeing. Again, you may not want to admit it. Im only speaking of what im seeing with my own two eyes.



> Explain to me why you’re making excuses for someone who is on trial for rape and that might not even play next season, except for the Colorado State Prison league of course.


First of all, what "excuses" have I made for Kobe? I doubt he will be playing for the Colorado State Prison league. His defense team is tearing the prosecution's case to shreds. Everywhere you turn there is resonable doubt in this bogus case. Next?




> What a ridiculous statement. Best player in the game? Kobe’s not even a top 10 player this year. Last year he was a top 3/4 player. This year no way is he a top 3 or 4 player.


Want to talk about a ridiculous statment? Not even a to 10 player this year? Top 3/4 last year? :laugh: 

Those two statments tell me all I need to know about you and your views on Kobe. 

You could make an argument for Duncan and ONLY Duncan being the better player last year. Kobe had an INCREDIBLE season. It was Kobe who strapped the Lakers to his back last year in Feb and got them back into the playoffs. To say he was top 4 last year. And not even top 10 this year is laughable. Please name me the 10 players in the league this year that's better than Kobe.





> Yup, it’s all about his teammates, his family, and his fans when he goes commits adultery and goes on trial for rape. Though to be fair, Kobe is a very hard worker and does give his all, no way of denying that.


Again, another cheap shot. What does Kobe cheating on his wife has to do with Kobe the basketball player? No matter how much you try to change the subject. It doesnt change the fact that its Kobe who gives 110% every night on the court for the Lakers and not Shaq. It doesnt change the fact, that if the Lakers are smart they realize who's the future of their franchise. Its Kobe. Not Shaq. Another thing. Kobe had the bad luck of sleeping with some psycho woman and got caught. Im quite sure he's not the first and wont be the last NBA player to cheat on their wife.



> Honestly, is it any wonder people of other teams hate Laker fans when we have people like you who obsess over Kobe Bryant like he’s your father or husband?


Obsess? far from it. Im a Lakers fan. I want whats best for the Lakers franchise. Im a fan of Kobe Bryant's. A fan of his work ethic and desire to win and be the best. If you find that to be obsessive, that's your problem. And your sadly mistaken.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> 
> 
> Obviously you dont see the writing on the wall as I do. IMO, Shaq has at best 2 good years left in him.


Then let him serve them in a Laker uni. It would be disgusting and painful to see Shaq in another jersey. He came to us from a 60 win team that took the Bulls 6 games to a young team full of malcontents and fresh off a first round exit. This is not the way you thank him. On top of that you want to send him to a crap franchise in a crap city where he wouldn't want to be. I really hope I am never an employee in your company.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jemel Irief</b>!
> 
> 
> Then let him serve them in a Laker uni. It would be disgusting and painful to see Shaq in another jersey. He came to us from a 60 win team that took the Bulls 6 games to a young team full of malcontents and fresh off a first round exit. This is not the way you thank him. On top of that you want to send him to a crap franchise in a crap city where he wouldn't want to be. I really hope I am never an employee in your company.


Plus, we'll have to absorb some awful contracts if we trade him. The good thing about Shaq is that he is a great player AND his contract is up in two years. We'll have some great cap flexibility once he's gone. I'd rather do that than trade him and get back Shandon Anderson or Charlie Ward's contract. Shaq makes far too much money for just a 2 player transaction. Multiple scrubs are likely to be included.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Shaq is the present Kobe is (hopefully for Laker fans) the future, they have a great chance to win NOW, trading Shaq away may make them better for the future, but not NOW, and you never know what can happen with your trade, Shaq is the best on the team currently and trading him away would be stupid...


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> 
> 
> Obviously you dont see the writing on the wall as I do. IMO, Shaq has at best 2 good years left in him. The injuries are becoming much more frequent. He isnt as effective as he used to be. He's missing way more chippies than he used to. He refuses to play the screen and roll to save his life. His lack of motivation has increased more and more with each passing year. IMO, he's lazy and doesnt have the same fire he once had. For ALL those reasons I believe it would be in the Lakers best interest to trade Shaq and get something for him while they still can. Go after the title this season. Then realize their future is wearing the #8 jersey. Not Shaq. Thats the simple truth. Some Laker fans dont want to face the reality that the M.D.E, really isnt as dominate as he once was. This is not saying im not a fan of Shaq or what he's done for the Lakers. Im just willing to see what's right in front of my face.


Again, exaggerating just isn’t necessary. I could care less how many chippies Shaq misses as long as his FG% stays consistent and he doesn’t need a bunch of shots to do that. Right now his FG% is 55%, barely 2% lower than his MVP season and he still has an entire half season to get that higher. 

This “low” FG% makes sense too, as Shaq has historically started his Lakers seasons out slowly in terms of regaining his touch around the basket. The exact same thing was true in 1996, it was true in 2003 when he came back from toe surgery, and the same thing will be true this year if his very consistent pattern of regaining his touch later in the year continues in the 2nd half of this season. 



> Actually he's 32. Will be 33 in March.


Almost but not quite. Shaq was born in March of 1972 according to nba.com. That would make him 31 years and nearly 11 months old. 



> Taken seriously or not. It doesnt change what ive seen over the past two seasons. And that is Shaq's attitude toward the game and his conditioning is horrible. It was his..."I got injured on company time...so i'll heal on company time"...that killed the Lakers last season. You may see it differently. But I dont. By him deciding to wait till freakin preseason to have his toe surgery. Then work his way into playing shape during the season(which never happened btw) is what i feel cost the Lakers the 4 peat. If he came with HALF the dedication and determination that Kobe did last season FROM DAY ONE. The Lakers make history. Period. He didnt. And the Lakers watched the Spurs take home the title.


Sorry, Shaq’s less than stellar year was hardly the only reason the Lakers lost the title last year. It was a combination of a terrible supporting cast that couldn’t play a lick of defense, tired and broken down vets like Horry and Fox not coming through in the playoffs, and Kobe suffering shoulder and knee injuries during the regular season and playoffs. Heck, one Horry 3 pointer goes in during Game 5 of the WCSF and the Lakers win their 4th title, beating the Mavs in the WCF and the Nets again in the Finals. 

But your embellishment isn’t surprising. Anything less than a postseason where the Lakers don’t sweep or at least win is Shaq’s fault apparently. 



> You say that as if last season was the ONLY season Shaq has come into camp out of shape. That simply is NOT true. Shaq had gotten progressively worse following the 2000 season. Phil's first season here, Shaq came in lean, mean and ready to kick *** from the first preseason game till game 6 of the finals. And he did just that. However the following seasons after the first title, Shaq's conditioning and training have gotten worse and worse. That's fact. Seriously, dont you think if Shaq took better care of himself during the offseason these little "knick knack" injuries wouldnt continue to surface? If Shaq had taken care of his body in the past, it wouldnt be breaking down now. Slowly but surely that's what we are seeing. Again, you may not want to admit it. Im only speaking of what im seeing with my own two eyes.


How in the world would you know that Shaq wasn’t in as good of shape in 2001 as he was in 2000? His stats, his play and his general effort in 2000 and 2001 seemed virtually identical at times when Kobe wasn’t going nuts and scoring 40 points in his sleep in the playoffs. In 2002 Shaq did look more vulnerable, but this was more of a result of his toe injury and zone defenses being legalized than Shaq getting progressively worse. 

It is certainly true that Shaq doesn’t have the greatest conditioning regimen, but the simple fact of the matter is that Shaq is a clearly a better player today than he was all last season coming back from toe surgery. That much just goes to show that 2003 was more of a blip on the radar than anything else. Though once he starts reaching 34 or 35 he will really start to slow down. You can’t beat age no matter how good of condition you’re in. 



> First of all, what "excuses" have I made for Kobe? I doubt he will be playing for the Colorado State Prison league. His defense team is tearing the prosecution's case to shreds. Everywhere you turn there is resonable doubt in this bogus case. Next?


Good lord, go to school. The trial hasn’t even begun yet. Talk to me when you have a clue about trial law.  



> Want to talk about a ridiculous statment? Not even a to 10 player this year? Top 3/4 last year? :laugh:
> 
> Those two statments tell me all I need to know about you and your views on Kobe.
> 
> You could make an argument for Duncan and ONLY Duncan being the better player last year. Kobe had an INCREDIBLE season. It was Kobe who strapped the Lakers to his back last year in Feb and got them back into the playoffs. To say he was top 4 last year. And not even top 10 this year is laughable. Please name me the 10 players in the league this year that's better than Kobe.


It’s just sad that you think Kobe has had a top 10 year so far this season. Here are 10 players who have had a better year than Kobe this season, in no particular order:

1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Peja
4. Cassell
5. Marbury
6. Kidd
7. J. O’Neil
8. Tmac
9. Carter
10. Ming

In case you didn’t get what I was saying before, Kobe is probably more gifted than all of them; *but to be so blind as to say that Kobe has had a better season than these 10 players is utterly ridiculous*. 



> What does Kobe cheating on his wife has to do with Kobe the basketball player? No matter how much you try to change the subject.


Apparently you lack the ability to understand that Kobe’s trial has cast a huge shadow over the Lakers ability to win a championship this year, with the media hounding the Lakers players and organization to no end. Kobe has even had to miss part of a game because of his trial. If you honestly think that Kobe thought that committing adultery was in the best interest of anyone but himself, you are delusional. 



> It doesnt change the fact that its Kobe who gives 110% every night on the court for the Lakers and not Shaq.


I never suggested otherwise. 



> Another thing. Kobe had the bad luck of sleeping with some psycho woman and got caught.


Good lord, what a ridiculous statement. The trial hasn’t even begun and little information about the victim has been released beyond supposed suicide attempts and already you’re labeling her a psycho. 



> Im quite sure he's not the first and wont be the last NBA player to cheat on their wife.


Just another reason why most people hate Laker fans. When you make excuses for an NBA player just because it’s the norm. I wonder if Kobe was caught smoking weed if you’d be saying the same thing, because after all, "He's not the first NBA player to do it".


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

I actually agree with EHL. Break out the champaign. :laugh:


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> I actually agree with EHL. Break out the champaign. :laugh:


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## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

No way should the Lakers trade Shaq. It would destroy the reputation of the organization, and there is no way we could get back equal value for him.


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## Sha-Kobe O'Bryant (Jan 3, 2003)

> Sorry, Shaq’s less than stellar year was hardly the only reason the Lakers lost the title last year. It was a combination of a terrible supporting cast that couldn’t play a lick of defense, tired and broken down vets like Horry and Fox not coming through in the playoffs, and Kobe suffering shoulder and knee injuries during the regular season and playoffs. Heck, one Horry 3 pointer goes in during Game 5 of the WCSF and the Lakers win their 4th title, beating the Mavs in the WCF and the Nets again in the Finals.


Shaq waiting until the Lakers went to camp to have his surgery was unforgivable. No matter how you want to spin it. He goes on and on about how this is HIS team. Well, freakin act like it. He KNOWS how important he is to this team. But didnt give a damn, because he got hurt on "company time." With Shaq missing out of the lineup last year. The Lakers got off to a horrendous start. They had to fight all season long just to make the playoffs. And dont you think if the "leader" of the team had taken care of business right after the Lakers beat the Nets in the finals and had his surgery. Worked out during the offseason. And came into camp in shape the Lakers would have had a better regular season record? Better record could have meant homecourt over the Spurs in the second round. Which could have made all the difference in the world. But you know what? We'll never know. Because Shaq didnt do what he should have done. Because an out of shape Shaq was getting murdered by Duncan at home as the Lakers were eliminated on their own floor. Plain and simple Shaq didnt give a damn about last season. And for that reason the Lakers struggled from day one and the 4peat was lost.




> Though once he starts reaching 34 or 35 he will really start to slow down. You can’t beat age no matter how good of condition you’re in.


Tell that to Karl Malone. If not for a freak accident and Scott Williams landing right on his knee. Malone would still be out there kickin *** at the age of 41. And why is that? Because over his entire career Karl Malone has worked his *** off to stay in tip top condition. So you indeed can beat age if you work you tail off to do so. Same can be said for a guy like Stockton who played into his 40's. Look at Willis in San Antonio. At 41 he was beating Shaq up and down the court last year in the playoffs for heaven sakes! Or Jerry Rice in the NFL. Fact of the matter is, before his injury, a 41 year old Karl Malone was outplaying a 31 year old Shaq. Shaq hasnt had the work ethic over the duration of his career to have the ability to play many more years. His body is not going to let him. Because he hasnt taken care of it the way he should.



> Good lord, go to school. The trial hasn’t even begun yet. Talk to me when you have a clue about trial law.


Well according to every legal expert ive heard or read an article by. Along with that of the judge who sent the case to trial. The prosecution has NO CASE. The defense is winning by a mile. So forgive me if i believe their opinions of what's going on with this trial over yours.





> It’s just sad that you think Kobe has had a top 10 year so far this season. Here are 10 players who have had a better year than Kobe this season, in no particular order:





> 1. Duncan
> 2. KG
> 3. Peja
> 4. Cassell
> ...





> In case you didn’t get what I was saying before, Kobe is probably more gifted than all of them; but to be so blind as to say that Kobe has had a better season than these 10 players is utterly ridiculous


In your initial post you did not say he wasnt having *ONE OF THE TOP TEN SEASONS* this year. You said he was not a *TOP TEN PLAYER.* Which is ridiculous. So basically you're saying because Kobe is having a down season stats wise. Because a number of different things. He's not a better player than those guys you mentioned?  

Kobe stats are down for a number of reasons. The injuries to begin the season. And the fact he has to share the rock with 3 other hall of famers. Kobe is still a top 10 player.


Just for the hell of it. I looked up some of the stats of the players you listed and compared them to Kobe's this season.

Kobe's stats

*Statistics 
PPG 21.9 
RPG 4.9 
APG 4.4 
SPG 1.76 
BPG .29 
FG% .422 
FT% .852 
3P% .344 
MPG 36.6* 

J.Kidd
*PPG 16.7 
RPG 6.4 
APG 9.6 
SPG 1.76 
BPG .27 
FG% .384 
FT% .803 
3P% .342 
MPG 37.5 *

Ming
*PPG 16.0 
RPG 9.3 
APG 1.5 
SPG .31 
BPG 1.86 
FG% .531 
FT% .773 
3P% .000 
MPG 32.6 *

Vince Carter
*PPG 20.9 
RPG 4.4 
APG 4.7 
SPG 1.00 
BPG .97 
FG% .414 
FT% .829 
3P% .381 
MPG 36.6* 

Marbury
*PPG 19.8 
RPG 3.3 
APG 8.8 
SPG 1.76 
BPG .13 
FG% .436 
FT% .811 
3P% .324 
MPG 41.1* 

Cassell
*PPG 21.1 
RPG 3.3 
APG 7.4 
SPG 1.12 
BPG .21 
FG% .499 
FT% .862 
3P% .431 
MPG 36.4 *

J.Oneal
*PPG 21.0 
RPG 10.6 
APG 2.0 
SPG .84 
BPG 2.78 
FG% .440 
FT% .760 
3P% .091 
MPG 37.0 *

So basically, 6 out of the 10 players you claim are having better seasons than Kobe dont even have better stats across the board on Kobe. That's with Kobe missing extended time due to injuries and court appearances. With Kobe playing with a rape charge over his head. Just imagine if the guy had been healthy, the bogus rape charge wasnt hanging over his head, and he didnt have to share the rock with 3 other hall of famers.  

 

You make some valid points on other issues. But to say Kobe isnt even top 10 is insane.




> Good lord, what a ridiculous statement. The trial hasn’t even begun and little information about the victim has been released beyond supposed suicide attempts and already you’re labeling her a psycho.


If it looks like a duck. Walks like a duck. Quaks like a duck. More than likely its a duck.





> Just another reason why most people hate Laker fans. When you make excuses for an NBA player just because it’s the norm. I wonder if Kobe was caught smoking weed if you’d be saying the same thing, because after all, "He's not the first NBA player to do it".


If those people are narrow minded enough to hate all Laker fans because of my views. That's their problem. Just because you're willing to condem a man because his marriage got a little shaky and he gave into temptation, im not. You may be perfect and have never made a mistake in your life. Im not. Neither is Kobe. Again, has nothing to do with Kobe the basketball player and what he brings to this team. Has nothing to do with Shaq's laziness and lack of desire. That still remains.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> So basically, 6 out of the 10 players you claim are having better seasons than Kobe dont even have better stats across the board on Kobe. That's with Kobe missing extended time due to injuries and court appearances. With Kobe playing with a rape charge over his head. Just imagine if the guy had been healthy, the bogus rape charge wasnt hanging over his head, and he didnt have to share the rock with 3 other hall of famers.


Did you only look at points per game? 

Kidd, Oneal, Marbury, and Cassell are having better seasons than Kobe without a doubt. Ming is debatable. Kobe is having a better season than Carter only. 

But just as easily I could add Baron Davis, Dirk Nowitski, Elton Brand, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen. 

Kobe is more talented than most of these guys, but this season those guys are having better years. Easily in most cases.

Which makes the list
1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Peja
4. Tmac
5. Baron Davis
6. Dirk Nowitski
7. Elton Brand
8. Paul Pierce
9. Ray Allen
10. Jason Kidd
11. Jermaine Oneal
12. Stephon Marbury
13. Sam Cassell

Off the top in no order...Ming is debatable as well. Theres probably more. 

Kobe is a top 20 player this season.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Shaq waiting until the Lakers went to camp to have his surgery was unforgivable. No matter how you want to spin it. He goes on and on about how this is HIS team. Well, freakin act like it. He KNOWS how important he is to this team. But didnt give a damn, because he got hurt on "company time." With Shaq missing out of the lineup last year. The Lakers got off to a horrendous start. They had to fight all season long just to make the playoffs. And dont you think if the "leader" of the team had taken care of business right after the Lakers beat the Nets in the finals and had his surgery. Worked out during the offseason. And came into camp in shape the Lakers would have had a better regular season record? Better record could have meant homecourt over the Spurs in the second round. Which could have made all the difference in the world. But you know what? We'll never know. Because Shaq didnt do what he should have done. Because an out of shape Shaq was getting murdered by Duncan at home as the Lakers were eliminated on their own floor. Plain and simple Shaq didnt give a damn about last season. And for that reason the Lakers struggled from day one and the 4peat was lost.


Why do I even bother reading this junk? We all know Shaq’s desire and work ethic is questionable. But even then, Shaq put up MVP-like stats last season in what was considered his “worst” season. He still played 67 games. His stats were 28-11-3 and 2.5 bpg on 57% FG shooting. Wow, what a piece of crap season. Yes, we all wish he would have worked out more in the past and had more desire last season, but that just didn’t happen. Sometimes you can’t have it all. I wish Magic hadn’t been infected with HIV, but the fact that he had a brilliant career, like Shaq, didn’t exactly make me want to condemn him and trade him. 

On the other side of it however, Kobe’s desires and determination, despite the fact that they are perfect examples of a dedicated and determined athlete, may have hindered the Lakers title hopes just as much last season. Kobe made the decision to play through a serious knee injury in February instead of taking a few games off. I love that he has that determination and fire, but at the same time I realize that Kobe did that at the expense of his playoff performance. He was routinely frustrated by Bruce Bowen in the playoffs last season, whereas he normally is only mildly bothered by Bowen. This was because his incredible determination to play through the knee injury in the regular season blinded him from the fact that he is not invincible and that even he can’t play his best when injured. If Kobe had sat out just a couple games during the regular season to heal is knee for the playoffs it may have made the difference in a title last season. 

Kobe’s stubbornness about injuries this season is also getting the better of him. His shoulder was clearly still very injured during the Utah game a couple days ago and Gary Vitti repeatedly recommended that he take at least one more week of rest to heal the shoulder. Kobe ignores him and plays. Lots of heart, no doubt, but it’s just stupid to risk possibly playing with a hurt shoulder during the entire playoffs for a regular season Utah game. 

I fear Kobe’s determination will one day get the better of him when he’s 31 or 32 and not 25 anymore and he can’t play through injuries as well as he used to but will try anyway, permanently busting a knee or ankle. 



> Tell that to Karl Malone. If not for a freak accident and Scott Williams landing right on his knee. Malone would still be out there kickin *** at the age of 41. And why is that? Because over his entire career Karl Malone has worked his *** off to stay in tip top condition. So you indeed can beat age if you work you tail off to do so. Same can be said for a guy like Stockton who played into his 40's. Look at Willis in San Antonio. At 41 he was beating Shaq up and down the court last year in the playoffs for heaven sakes! Or Jerry Rice in the NFL. Fact of the matter is, before his injury, a 41 year old Karl Malone was outplaying a 31 year old Shaq. Shaq hasnt had the work ethic over the duration of his career to have the ability to play many more years. His body is not going to let him. Because he hasnt taken care of it the way he should.


Yeah, let’s compare Shaq to Karl Malone. :laugh: There’s no comparison when you look at Karl Malone’s longevity and Kobe’s longevity. Kobe is nothing compared to Malone in that sense. Comparing Karl to Shaq is just ridiculous. 

And for god sakes, get player’s ages right. Malone is 40 years old. Sheesh, look it up for once. 



> Well according to every legal expert ive heard or read an article by. Along with that of the judge who sent the case to trial. The prosecution has NO CASE. The defense is winning by a mile. So forgive me if i believe their opinions of what's going on with this trial over yours.


Then you haven’t been listening carefully enough, because _most_ legal experts have said that Kobe’s case looks great, yes. BUT they all add that _However, it could easily all change depending on what the prosecution presents at trial_ or something to that effect. 



> If it looks like a duck. Walks like a duck. Quaks like a duck. More than likely its a duck.


I have my doubts you know what a duck is. :laugh:



> Just because you're willing to condem a man because his marriage got a little shaky and he gave into temptation, im not.


Puh-lease. It’s really ridiculous that you can’t see how much the trial has put the Lakers under the microscope this season and how that could very well (and has in case you haven’t noticed) emotionally and mentally effected not just Kobe’s teammates but Kobe himself. 

It makes me even more sick that “Laker fans” like yourself assume that Kobe has only committed adultery once. Who knows how deep Kobe’s indiscretions go, certainly not you. The insistence that Kobe has somehow only done one wrong in his life is ridiculous. 



> You may be perfect and have never made a mistake in your life. Im not. Neither is Kobe.


I have made plenty of mistakes before. Cheating on your wife is more than just a mistake. A mistake is forgetting a good friends' birthday. Adultery is a terrible act of betrayal, however much you want to believe it's a simple "mistake". 

And I'm assuming Kobe didn't rape this women, which I have a feeling he didn't (at least I hope). 



> Again, has nothing to do with Kobe the basketball player and what he brings to this team. Has nothing to do with Shaq's laziness and lack of desire. That still remains.


Your insistence that Kobe’s personal life has no bearing on his basketball life or the Lakers players/organization is ridiculously biased given the amount of evidence to the contrary, in the form of the media attention the trial has attracted and the side effects of that fact (Kobe missing part of a game and very possibly several more, the media hounding of teammates in the form of relentless questioning and badgering, Kobe’s mental anguish and approach to the game given his stress at home, etc.). 

I won’t argue with you about Kobe’s “Top 10” season, clearly you don’t watch any other team but the Lakers. *John The Cool Kid* explained it nicely in the post above my mine here.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Sha-Kobe O'Bryant, one thing you've also overlooked is the possibility that Kobe might not resign, or that he might be guilty. I think theres atleast a 25% chance of Kobe not playing for the Lakers next year, whether that be because of being guilty or him on another team. 

So, without Shaq or Kobe, and with those guys you listed originally. That makes the Lakers a bottom 5 team in the league (right there with the Bulls)

That kind of thing is a huge risk for a team like the Lakers. If they become one of the worst teams in the league for too long(2-3 years), it will lose a lot of the attractiveness it has now in the free agent market. Some of that attractiveness comes from LA not trading its players away, and being loyal. Players come because they know they'll be treated right. Trading the best player to come around since Magic kind of abandons that logic. Especially when its for a bunch of borderline starters.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Sha-Kobe O'Bryant</b>!
> Would really appreciate some feedback on this trade idea from Cavs and Laker fans.
> 
> Lakers trade:
> ...


What the ....???!!!???

Why in the bloody hell would some Laker fan wanna trade The Big Toe?
Oh, i see, get a bunch of role players to make LA Kobe´s team, is it?

Well, news flash, dude: Kobe is not a leader! He won´t ever carry a team to glory!
Shaq has.
Severall times, also.

So, if your dream trade would involve LBJ, i could concede there would be a point. But for scrubs? I think i´ll pass...

Shaq is past his glory days, i believe, but there are only 2 players in the NBA that bring havok to another team´s heart: Duncan... and Shaq.

He is our Big Ticket.

I think this thread is dangerously close to treason, if you ask me...


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

So do people think the package that the Lakers got was better or worse than this one?


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## jstempi (Jul 23, 2003)

I vote that getting Odom was better. First of all, the original post says this woul happen this summer, so we'd have to assume Cleveland didnt let Boozer walk. 

Boozer and Zydrunas would both only have one year left on their contracts and both would want to get paid. Honestly, I dont think they would have stayed because someone out east would have offered more money and more years than they are worth. Then the Lakers would be left with either overpaying one of them or losing both. 


So in essence, with the thread starters trade, the Lakers could ultimately be left with one of either Boozer or Zydrunas (Yippee) long term and Battie (Yippee) for two years. The current scenario leaves the Lakers with Odom locked up long term (wich is at least equal to or better than locking up Boozer or Zydrunas), getting a REAL prospect in Butler for two years until you really have to pay him (if he winds up being worth more, which most believe he will)a first rounder, and a servicable big who prolly equals Battie who you only have to overpay for 3 years.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RP McMurphy</b>!
> So do people think the package that the Lakers got was better or worse than this one?


You serious? Is that just to start discussion or are you curious?

Ilgauskas is in his late 20's and the best player in that deal. Boozer is at best a 3rd caliber player on a title contender, while Odom is a capable #2. 

And then you have a wild card like Butler.

Eric Williams is comparable to the protected 1st I guess.

Which do you think is the better package?

Of course, I would rather have Shaq than either one.


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