# Who Is The Best Player The Knicks Have Ever Had In Franchise History??????



## NYK4LIFE30 (Dec 7, 2003)

*I'D SAY 1 OF THESE 4 MEN BELOW, I'D GO WITH BERNARD KING IN ALL HONESTY, BUT I'M A LITTLE BIASED. THEY WERE ALL GREAT. THEY ALL HAD GREAT MOMENTS AS WELL.
KING AVG 42PPG IN THE 84 PLAYOFF SERIES VS DETROIT, NOT TO MENTION WHAT HE DID IN THE 5TH GAME WITH 2 DISLOCATED FINGERS AND THE FLU, ALSO HE IS THE ONLY KNICK TO WIN A SCORING TITLE. FRAZIER SCORING 36 POINTS AND DISHING OUT 19 ASSISTS IN GAME 7 OF THE FINALS. EWING SCORING 24 POINTS, PULLING DOWN 22 BOARDS, DISHING OUT 9 ASSISTS AND BLOCKING 6 SHOTS AND ALSO GETTING THE GAME WINNING BASKET IN GAME 7 OF THE 94 CONFERENCE FINALS. WILLIS COMING OUT FOR GAME 7 IN 1970, NOT TO MENTION THAT WILLIS IS THE ONLY KNICK EVER TO WIN THE MVP AWARD.*


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## Phate01 (Jun 6, 2003)

Personally I'd say number 33 Patrick Ewing but thats but then I am biased cos he is my favourite all time player so yeah.


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## Jmonty580 (Jun 20, 2003)

Benard King is the King of knicks history, I cant sleep on Walt Clyde or Ewing all great players.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

1. Ewing
2. Frazier
3. Reed
4. King
5. Tie between Monroe/Houston/Sprewell

Longevity means more to greatness than talent. King had 2 good years with the Knicks, that was it for his career. Little playoff success. The top 3 are hall of famers - King is not.

In fact, if you crunch the numbers, the top 3 are still statistically above King. 

King's best season ever was his 33 ppg season with NY, where he had a 26.80 efficiency. He averaged 19.60 for his career.

Ewing's best season was 89-90, the one season he made the All-NBA First Team (it's not his fault Olajuwon and Kareem were in the league soon to be followed by other greats). He accumulated a 32.34 efficiency that season, and he averaged 23.41 for his career. What's shocking about Ewing is he was so good for so long - he had a 22.23 efficiency at the age of 35 in 97-98 (the year he sadly shattered his wrist), only one point below his career average (it's the following 4 seasons that lowered his average considerably). Had he not hurt his wrist, it's not inconcievable to think he wouldn't have been able to go it for a little longer.

Regardless, King's best season was only marginally better than Patrick Ewing's career average.

Walt Frazier made the All-NBA First Team 4 times, that's probably the most in Knick history. Frazier never had a standout season, but he was consistent. His career high EFF was 26.18, but he acheived an EFF of at least 26 four times in his career. 26 EFF is a lot more impressive for a PG than for a SF, because points, rebounds, and FG% come much easier to other positions. Case in point, Gary Payton has only gotten a 26 EFF once, Jason Kidd only managed 25 EFF once, and John Stockton needed to average 14 assists for him to get a 27 EFF. Back to the All-NBA First team mention, that's something that should be looked at in high regard - it means the player was the best in the league that year at his position. Frazier made the team 4 times. Stockton and Payton only made it twice. Isaiah Thomas made it 3 times. Kidd has made it 4 times so far (and I think he was screwed out of it last year when they gave it to 2 SGs, Kobe and McGrady). Magic Johnson won it 9 years in a row before retiring after 12 seasons. Frazier clearly ranks among good company when it comes to PGs.

Reed's MVP is a bit of an abberration. Wilt Chamberlain only played 12 games that year, averaging 27 ppg and 18 rpg. It was Jabbar's rookie season that year, and he took the Bucks to 56 wins on 28 ppg and 14 rpg. The Knicks on the other hand had 60 wins, but they also had a better team. It's hard to say that Walt Frazier didn't have as much to do with the team's success as Willis that year, and of course they still had 2 more Hall of Famers in Debusschere and Bradley. Bill Russell had already retired by then too. Reed's MVP was more or less due to Wilt and Russell being absent, and Kareem just entering the league. I honestly would have given it to Jabbar that year, since he had a bigger impact on his team's success. It seems Reed only got it because his team was in 1st place (and they should have been). Had Olajuwon ever played only 12 games, then Ewing would have been the top center too. Reed however, to his credit has a higher career EFF than Ewing. However, that is mainly because he played only 10 years. He retired at 31. Like I said before, Ewing's numbers were hurt because he played through the decline years. Most players decline after they turn 31 or 32, so Reed's career numbers didn't suffer through a dip like everybody else.

Ewing, Reed, and Frazier are among the best all-time at their positions.

Is Bernard King among the best Small Forwards of all-time? Not really. If he were, he'd certainly be in the Hall of Fame, no? He looks a little similar to Glenn Robinson. Great scorer, but not much else.


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## NYK4LIFE30 (Dec 7, 2003)

*YOU CAN ACCUMULATE KING'S LACK OF GREAT YEARS AS A KNICK TO A CERTAIN KNEE INJURY (TORN ACL) THAT HE SUFFERED IN 85 TRYING TO BLOCK A REGGIE THEUS SHOT. BUT IN HIS 3 SUPERB YEARS WITH THE KNICKS NY MADE IT TO THE 2ND ROUND TWICE (YEA BACK THEN THAT WAS AN ACCOMPLISHMENT DUE TO THE FACT THAT U HAD SO MANY DAMN GOOD TEAMS IN THE EAST), AND KING DIDN'T HAVE MOSES MALONE OR KEVIN MCHALE, LIKE THE OTHER 2 SF'S (ERVING AND BIRD RESPECTIVLY) HAD. QUOTE LARRY BIRD AFTER THE 1984 SERIES VS THE KNICKS WHERE BOSTON WON IN 7 GAMES " HE IS THE BEST FORWARD IN THIS GAME RIGHT NOW " (BIRD TALKING ABOUT BERNARD KING). THE ONLY OTHER TEAM TO PUSH BOSTON TO 7 GAMES WAS THE LAKERS. BOSTON WON THE TITLE IN 1984. REMEMBER THIS ABOUT BERNARD, HE IS THE FIRST ATHLETE IN SPORTS HISTORY TO RECOVER FROM A TORN ACL AND BE RIGHT. EVIDENCE IS HIM RETURNING TO MSG AND DROPPING 49 ON THE KNICKS AND ALSO BECOMING AN ALL-STAR IN 1991 FOR WASHINGTON WHILE AVG 28PPG. KING HAS A CAREER FG% OF .518 AND EWING IS BETTER FOR LONGETIVITY NO DOUBT, BUT THE ULTIMATE IS WHO DO U WANNA GIVE THE BALL WITH THE GAME ON THE LINE????? PATRICK OR BERNARD, I'D SAY BERNARD.*


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## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

STOP WITH THE BLUE CAPS LOCK!!!


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Since Larry Bird is probably the best SF of all-time, him decreeing that Bernard King is a better SF than him is meaningless. It's like Michael Jordan saying someone was better than him.

It also means that Larry Bird was just paying respect to a veteran. Considering Bird made the All-NBA 1st team is first 9 years in the league, and King was pretty much only a star in his Knick years... do the math.

And again - just because you can score 30 points per game, doesn't make you Michael Jordan. Just ask Dominique Wilkens.

Then ask a better question: 

You're basing this entirely on one playoff series, partially because I suppose it was the only playoff series King ever won in his career.

Was King the best scorer to ever play for the Knicks? Yeah, probably. Was he the best player? Not a chance. The reason nobody considered Dominique on level with MJ was because MJ played something called defense. MJ was also fairly good at setting up players other than himself. King was not good in either of those areas. I'll also make a point of it here that he averaged over 200 turnovers per year, pretty dubious considering he'd always miss a bunch of games to injury.

Ewing and Reed played defense. Frazier could pass. They weren't one-dimensional scorers like Dominique, Bernard, Glenn Robinson, Antawn Jamison, etc.

Like I said, I crunched the numbers - King's best season was only about as good as what Frazier did 3 times, and what Ewing did many times throughout his career. I'm finding the ACL excuse hard to believe, because King had that great year at the age of 28, an age where most players have their great year and they typically drop off around 31 or 32 anyway. When you're trying to determine who the best player was when looking back on a franchise, you've got to look at more than points, the only category King was good in.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

i am guessing you are too young to have ever seen bernard king play.....

you would not make those comments if you did...

what you say about longevity is true,but without that injury,he would have the knicks greatest player by far..the guy was unstoppable,ferocios and intense....the guy was utterly dominant


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

*more on the king*

King enjoyed his greatest glory while playing in a New York uniform. His scoring output increased each year with the Knicks, from 21.9 ppg in 1982-83 to 26.3 ppg (fifth in the league) in 1983-84. He returned to the All-Star Game that year and earned his first spot on the All-NBA First Team. He almost single-handely led the Knicks to a 3-2 first round series win over the Detroit Pistons as he posted over 40 points in four games and 36 in the other. King averaged 34.8 ppg in the entire 1984 NBA Playoffs, before losing in the Eastern Conference Semifinals to the Boston Celtics in seven games. 

In 1984-85 King was the main attraction in the Big Apple and beyond. He led the NBA in scoring with an average of 32.9 ppg, including one memorable heat wave in the middle of winter. On Christmas Day he scored 60 points against New Jersey(a Knick franchise reocrd); on January 31 and February 1 he posted back-to-back 50-point outings against the San Antonio Spurs and the Dallas Mavericks; and two weeks later, on February 16, he rained in 55 points against the Nets. 

unless you have SEEN him play,you have no idea how good he was..Stop with thew silly stats


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Why blue and why all caps?

Oh and the answer to the question is of course Ewing. That guy was one of the best centers in history.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> what you say about longevity is true,but without that injury,he would have the knicks greatest player by far..the guy was unstoppable,ferocios and intense....the guy was utterly dominant


Like I said, there's more to basketball than scoring. Ewing, Reed, and Frazier could all do something besides score. King is nothing more than a glorified Glenn Robinson or Allan Houston.

There's a reason why Larry Bird is usually considered among the top SFs of all time, and why King is not.


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## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

1-Ewing
2-Reed
3-Frazier
4-Monroe/King
5-Sprewell/Starks/Oakley/LJ(most recent)


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

LJ?

LJ? 

LJ? 

Wow, you really haven't been watching basketball too long.

The fact that you even put LJ on the same level as Oakley and Spree says something. Heck, you don't even mention DeBusschere.

What exactly did LJ do again that distinguished himself from the likes of Xavier McDaniel and Derek Harper?


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## Matiz (Jun 5, 2003)

> LJ?


Layden jobless?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

rashidi,have you actually ever played basketball or any sport at a competitive level??

you have a very interesting perspective on what makes a ball player and what greatness entails...


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

I have played basketball fyi. Not that it takes a grizzled veteran to figure out what makes a good basketball player.


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## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> LJ?
> 
> LJ?
> ...




Alright, this point you are right. I just threw LJ in there cause he's one of my favorite Knicks. But he isn't in the top 5. Or top 15 to say the least.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

my fav was ROD STRICKLAND...even though he hardly played here cause they wanted some veteran leadership........


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## NYK4LIFE30 (Dec 7, 2003)

HEY RASHIDI WHY DON'T YOU WATCH BERNARD TORCH LARRY BIRD AND THE CDELTICS IN THAT 84 SERIES. KING DOMINATED, THE ONLY REASON Y THE CELTS WON IS BECAUSE THEY HAD MCHALE AND PARISH 2 HOF'S. BERNARD WAS THE BEST PLAYER ON THE COURT AND THE RIGHTFUL MVP. RASHIDI ALSO LARRY BIRD WAS ALWAYS BLUNT ABOUT HIS BASKETBALL OPINIONS INCASE YOU DIDN'T KNOW. IF BIRD SAID BERNARD WAS THE BEST FORWARD IN THE LEAGUE IN 1984 BERNARD WAS THE BEST FORWARD IN THE LEAGUE IN 1984. LARRY BIRD NEVER TRIED TO BE NICE HE WAS ALWAYS BLUNT, WATCH A BASKETBALL TAPE OR AND YOU'LL SEE AND I DON'T MEAN AN AND1 MIX TAPE.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Bernard King was a very complete player..For a small foward he pulled down almost 7 rpg and had apx 4 apg...Rashidis statement regarding birds assesssment is completely ludicrous..

Bernard was dominant,completely unstoppable and a very tough competitor..If you never watched him play,you should not be making statements,especially those discountin larry legend


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> For a small foward he pulled down almost 7 rpg and had apx 4 apg...


The following things are wrong with this statement.

1. King never averaged 7 boards as a Knick. He never even averaged 6 as a Knick, and this is in the 80s, where rebounds were more common. In fact, he only averaged 7 or more boards TWICE in his career, his first 2 years.

2. King only averaged 4 apg ONCE in his career, and it wasn't with the Knicks. He has assist totals comparable to Allan Houston during his NY time.

3. Neither of these aspects have anything to do with the defensive end, which is my main arguement against King. Thus far you've done a rather poor job trying to prove him to be more than a scorer like Glenn Robinson.

How come there is no mention of King's 15 blocks per year (almost LJ like) and 70 steals per game (almost Houston like)?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> HEY RASHIDI WHY DON'T YOU WATCH BERNARD TORCH LARRY BIRD AND THE CDELTICS IN THAT 84 SERIES.


One season does not a career make. 

Last year Kevin Garnett said Tracy McGrady was the MVP. Tracy McGrady said Tim Duncan was the MVP. Tim Duncan said Kevin Garnett was the MVP.

Fortunately, we have more than modest players as sources to evaluate the worth of a player.

Larry Bird was the MVP in 1984. And in 1985. And in 1986. He was All-NBA First Team his first 9 seasons in the league. King made the team twice.

Larry Bird averaged more than 6 boards per game. Try double digit boards.

Larry Bird averaged more than 3 assists per game. Try twice that, 6+ assists per game.

Larry Bird also averaged more than 15 blocks per season, and a lot more than 70 steals per season.

Bird also had 3pt range, and shot a lot higher than 73% from the free throw line in his career.

In other words, it doesn't make a difference if Bird was being nice while complementing a tough opponent or not, because most of the sane world can logically deduce why Bird was better than King. Was King a better scorer than Larry Bird? I'm sure he was by a little. Too bad Bird was flat out superior in every other aspect of the game. That's why he was the MVP.

You might as well be trying to compare Dominique Wilkins to Michael Jordan.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

mr rashidi,i would strongly suggest you stop looking at stats and watch bernard king play...you cant judge a ballplayers greatness from a web page......


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

I have seen him play. But fortunately, for some of the less fortunate people out there, who didn't get to see more than one game of Bernard King's career (which always seems to be that game 5, I guess they show that on MSG highlight reels or something), that's why basketball cards with statistics were created.

I don't need to watch Bernard King to realize that he's a worse defensive player than Larry Bird.

I don't need to watch Bernard King to realize that he's a worse rebounder than Larry Bird.

I don't need to watch Bernard King to realize that he's a worse passer than Larry Bird.

So far your only arguement has been "watch him play", "watch him play".

Fine then. Kurt Thomas is better than George Mikan. Just watch Mikan play and you'll realize how much better Kurt is.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> i would strongly suggest you stop looking at stats and watch bernard king play


I would strongly suggest you stop watching Bernard King play, and start watching Larry Bird play. Since Larry Legend is usually attributed to have had quite a number of intangibles that don't show up in the stat lines that you claim I worship.

Please, feel free to make this comparison on Boston's message board, and see how quickly you get laughed at.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

rashidi,i also suggest you learn how to read...the title of this discussion is 

"Who is the Best Player the Knicks Hav Ever Had in Franchise History??????"

So tell me why you are comparing larry legend to Bernard King???

Last I looked,Bird was a Celtic not a Knick...That would mean we shouldnt compare the two as we are talking about greatest Knicks......


Noone on the board said King was better than Bird..You made the statement discounting Birds assessment of King....

USE YOUR NOODLE!!!!!!


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Just out of curiousity what got you going on Larry Bird??????

You are arguing with yourself


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Apparantly I am not arguing with myself if somebody else is trying to say King was better than Bird.

But I thought that would be fairly obvious to anybody with a "noodle".

Still, it's funny that after losing your arguement you quickly backtracked to the original topic discussion.

And despite the Bird comparisions, you've utterly failed to prove that Bernard King was anything more than a one-dimensional scorer. 

Which means that my point that Ewing, Reed, and Frazier were more than just scorers still stands strong.

Merry Christmas. Happy Noodling.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Patrick Ewing

when I think of NY...I think of Patrick Ewing.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashidi,you are the only person who compared Larry Bird to Bernard King...In fact you compared him to others with your statement of..

"Is Bernard King among the best Small Forwards of all-time? Not really. If he were, he'd certainly be in the Hall of Fame, no? He looks a little similar to Glenn Robinson. Great scorer, but not much else."

Someone else made the statement that Larry Bird proclaimed King the best player of the 84 season..Thats when you countered with your personal feelings about Birds statement...

So,you are arguing with yourself,cause I never brought up Bird,merely stating that I doubt you have ever watched King play..

If you havent watched King play,I know you never watched willis or clyde play..and if you did you would know the 69-73 knicks under holtzman were vastly different than the knicks ubder hubie brown..

reread the posts and you show me one post that anyone brought up that compare King with anyone outside the knick organaisation..YOU are the ONLY one

That is why you often find yourself arguing with yourself

once again,use your noodle


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> HEY RASHIDI WHY DON'T YOU WATCH BERNARD TORCH LARRY BIRD AND THE CDELTICS IN THAT 84 SERIES. KING DOMINATED, *THE ONLY REASON Y THE CELTS WON IS BECAUSE THEY HAD MCHALE AND PARISH 2 HOF'S.* BERNARD WAS THE BEST PLAYER ON THE COURT AND THE RIGHTFUL MVP.


PWNED.



> RASHIDI ALSO LARRY BIRD WAS ALWAYS BLUNT ABOUT HIS BASKETBALL OPINIONS INCASE YOU DIDN'T KNOW. *IF BIRD SAID BERNARD WAS THE BEST FORWARD IN THE LEAGUE IN 1984 BERNARD WAS THE BEST FORWARD IN THE LEAGUE IN 1984.* LARRY BIRD NEVER TRIED TO BE NICE HE WAS ALWAYS BLUNT, WATCH A BASKETBALL TAPE OR AND YOU'LL SEE AND I DON'T MEAN AN AND1 MIX TAPE.


Here you go.

Oh wait, let me guess. I forgot to use my noodle.

Since you are clearly the smartest person on the board, the only person here with a "noodle", perhaps I should take my leave. After all, since you are the end-all basis for "basketball knowledge" I suppose I (as well as other posters) are not required. Maybe I'll come back when I have acquired this so-called "noodle".


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> PWNED.
> ...


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


He still Pwnz0rd u cuz u didn't use all caps

k thx bye.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

If you read it,and i never wrote it,he merely stated that FOR THAT SERIES Bernard King was the best player on the floor..He dominated the series,and took the Celts to the max..And that was against 3 HOF..You then turned the discussion into Larry Bird vs Bernard King...

I am still not sure of your point..IF Larry Bird said BK was the best foward in the league,maybe its true..I have no @#$% clue..Larry Bird also said Marcus Camby was the best player during the playoffs when the Knicks knocked out the Pacers..Its his opinion


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