# James Harden TRADED to Rockets



## NOFX22

James Harden turned down a four-year, $52 million contract extension offer from the Oklahoma City Thunder.

Harden is seeking a maximum-level deal worth $60 million over four years.

The Thunder have until Wednesday to sign Harden to a contract extension or allow him the opportunity to become a restricted free agent on July 1.

Via Adrian Wojnarowski/Yahoo! Sports


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## Hibachi!

Lol. See ya Harden.


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## Porn Player

Woah, that's a lot of money to turn down. 

He's not Franchise material in my opinion, but I'm sure somebody will pay him.


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## NOFX22

He will be a clipper next season


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## Headliner

I don't think he's worth that much honestly. Wasn't there reports that he wasn't happy last year?


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## Pacers Fan

Porn Player said:


> Woah, that's a lot of money to turn down.
> 
> He's not Franchise material in my opinion, but I'm sure somebody will pay him.


Yep. If I were James Harden, I would seriously consider setting aside that extra 2 mil/year and not have impending free agency bothering him and his teammates this season. No way the Thunder offer a max extension when they can match any offer next summer regardless. Or are max extensions less than max contracts?

But really, someone's going to sign James Harden to a max contract, and that team is going to be very disappointed. I love Harden's game, but he's not a #1 guy. He'd be much better suited as a #2 or #3 guy.


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## Mr. Hobbes

Porn Player said:


> Woah, that's a lot of money to turn down.
> 
> He's not Franchise material in my opinion, but I'm sure somebody will pay him.


Franchise money? He's like Ginobili. No 6th man ever gets a max deal, even if he's starter caliber.

If this causes the OKC nucleus to implode, sucks for them. It takes some compromise to keep both Harden and Ibaka.


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## 29380

NOFX22 said:


> He will be a clipper next season


The Clippers won't have the cap space to sign him next year.


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## King Sancho Fantastic

Hope he stays healthy.


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## NOFX22

Knicks4life said:


> The Clippers won't have the cap space to sign him next year.


Yes they will with expiring contracts like Cp3, Odom, billups, green, hill, Barnes, hollins, turiaf.


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## 29380

NOFX22 said:


> Yes they will with expiring contracts like Cp3, Odom, billups, green, hill, Barnes, hollins, turiaf.


Still would not be enough unless the cap goes up to ~$61M and CP3 walks, if CP3 resigns the Clippers will only probably have no capspace.


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## BlakeJesus

Mr. Hobbes said:


> Franchise money? He's like Ginobili. No 6th man ever gets a max deal, even if he's starter caliber.


He's a 6th Man by design, not because he's incapable of being a starter. He's not Jamal Crawford.


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## NOFX22

Knicks4life said:


> Still would not be enough unless the cap goes up to ~$61M and CP3 walks, if CP3 resigns the Clippers will only probably have no capspace.


clippers will have only 42 million in guaranteed money next season.
http://www.hoopsworld.com/los-angeles-clippers-team-salary/

They can sign harden to a offer sheet and just use the bird rights on Cp3 after


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## 29380

NOFX22 said:


> clippers will have only 42 million in guaranteed money next season.
> http://www.hoopsworld.com/los-angeles-clippers-team-salary/


http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/clippers.jsp



> They can sign harden to a offer sheet and just use the bird rights on Cp3 after


No they can't they would have to renounce CP3's rights to get his cap hold off their books.


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## XxIrvingxX

NOFX22 said:


> clippers will have only 42 million in guaranteed money next season.
> http://www.hoopsworld.com/los-angeles-clippers-team-salary/
> 
> *They can sign harden to a offer sheet and just use the bird rights on Cp3 after*


Pretty sure it doesn't work that way lol


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## R-Star

BlakeJesus said:


> He's a 6th Man by design, not because he's incapable of being a starter. He's not Jamal Crawford.


So was Ginobili.


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## R-Star

Anyways, Harden's probably going to be maxed out by some dumb team like the Bobcats.


I'm glad everyone's calmed down with the "2nd best SG in the league" bullshit with Harden.


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## XxIrvingxX

So I guess 52 million wasn't enough for him? Pretentious prick.


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## Mr. Hobbes

> No 6th man ever gets a max deal, even if he's starter caliber.





BlakeJesus said:


> He's a 6th Man by design, not because he's incapable of being a starter.


:|

Really?


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## Jamel Irief

Hey* Dre*, should I say it?


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## NOFX22

XxIrvingxX said:


> Pretty sure it doesn't work that way lol


Boston used there cap space and resign there own players with bird rights regardless of cap issues. I know hawks next season will try to sign Cp3 and Howard with there cap space and use the bird rights for Smith.


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## rocketeer

XxIrvingxX said:


> So I guess 52 million wasn't enough for him? Pretentious prick.


lol.


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## Dornado

He'll get more if he waits (unpredictable injuries aside). Can't see why that makes him pretentious... smart maybe.


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## Hyperion

Suns are going to sign him. Hopefully they get a good draft pick to replace Scola/Beasley.

That would work well for them.


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## R-Star

Hyperion said:


> Suns are going to sign him. Hopefully they get a good draft pick to replace Scola/Beasley.
> 
> That would work well for them.


No it wouldn't. Whoever goes for Harden wanting him as their #1 offensive star is going to at best fight for a bottom playoff spot.


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## Hyperion

Any team whose best player isn't named Lebron James is going to have a very tough time competing for the championship. Harden is still one of the top 5sg in the league. I have him right behind or tied with Gordon. did he flop in the finals both conference and nba? Yes, but he's 23 years old and averaged 17ppg on 10fga a game with 49% shooting and 39% from 3pt. Is he worth more than what the Thunder offered him? No, but to get a legit 20ppg sg that you didn't draft, you're going to have to pay a premium.

He's forced to play behind Russell "I need to shoot the most on the team because I'm the bestest" Westbrook and Durant. If he were to get the green light to shoot 20x a game, he'd probably average near 25ppg.


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## Dornado

Hyperion said:


> Any team whose best player isn't named Lebron James is going to have a very tough time competing for the championship. Harden is still one of the top 5sg in the league. I have him right behind or tied with Gordon. did he flop in the finals both conference and nba? Yes, but he's 23 years old and averaged 17ppg on 10fga a game with 49% shooting and 39% from 3pt. *Is he worth more than what the Thunder offered him? No, but to get a legit 20ppg sg that you didn't draft, you're going to have to pay a premium.*
> 
> He's forced to play behind Russell "I need to shoot the most on the team because I'm the bestest" Westbrook and Durant. If he were to get the green light to shoot 20x a game, he'd probably average near 25ppg.


See, those two statements are inconsistent. If you have to pay a premium for that type of player then he is, in fact, worth more than the Thunder are offering him. Not trying to single out your comment, but I feel like every time a guy signs a contract people feel he's overpaid, or "not worth it"... people may not like it, but the NBA market is what it is. Big guys get 10 million dollar contracts like they grow on trees... young lottery-type talents like Harden (even wings) who have shown that they can produce are probably worth more than 4 years 52 million.


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## hobojoe

These threads always crack me up. Go ahead, rip Harden for not accepting the offer because you don't think he's worth that much. Yea, he should just accept what he's "worth" according to you. Kind of like the thread laughing at Javale McGee last year where his agent publicly said what kind of contract he would be seeking. Who's laughing now? The guy with the $50 million deal.


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## hobojoe

Dornado said:


> See, those two statements are inconsistent. If you have to pay a premium for that type of player then he is, in fact, worth more than the Thunder are offering him. Not trying to single out your comment, but I feel like every time a guy signs a contract people feel he's overpaid, or "not worth it"... people may not like it, but the NBA market is what it is. Big guys get 10 million dollar contracts like they grow on trees... young lottery-type talents like Harden (even wings) who have shown that they can produce are probably worth more than 4 years 52 million.


Yup.


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## Hyperion

Dornado said:


> See, those two statements are inconsistent. If you have to pay a premium for that type of player then he is, in fact, worth more than the Thunder are offering him. Not trying to single out your comment, but I feel like every time a guy signs a contract people feel he's overpaid, or "not worth it"... people may not like it, but the NBA market is what it is. Big guys get 10 million dollar contracts like they grow on trees... young lottery-type talents like Harden (even wings) who have shown that they can produce are probably worth more than 4 years 52 million.


What a player is signed to versus what a player is worth are two different points. Arguing relative to his value against his production values him at one number while the supply in the league provides for a premium or discount. there is no logic disconnect here just two different valuation models. Fans have a proportionate value while gms have a competitive value.


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## MemphisX

Pacers Fan said:


> Yep. If I were James Harden, I would seriously consider setting aside that extra 2 mil/year and not have impending free agency bothering him and his teammates this season. No way the Thunder offer a max extension when they can match any offer next summer regardless. Or are max extensions less than max contracts?
> 
> But really, someone's going to sign James Harden to a max contract, and that team is going to be very disappointed. I love Harden's game, but he's not a #1 guy. He'd be much better suited as a #2 or #3 guy.


So you name me the top playoff team where the #2 or #3 guy isn't making the max.


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## E.H. Munro

NOFX22 said:


> Boston used there cap space and resign there own players with bird rights regardless of cap issues. I know hawks next season will try to sign Cp3 and Howard with there cap space and use the bird rights for Smith.


They can't. In order for the Hawks to sign one of either Howard or Paul they would need to renounce everyone but Smith. For both they have to renounce Smith, as well.

What Boston did they did by design because the free agent market dried up prematurely. So rather than renouncing all their bird rights players to overpay mediocrities they elected to reassemble the gang for one last run and add some support. But the Lee deal was a sign & trade (they sent out matching salary) and JET was an MLE signing. Unless you expect Paul to sign an MLE deal with the Clippers then they're going to have their cap space tied up.


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## Floods

*OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*



> Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA
> Oklahoma City has traded James Harden to the Houston Rockets, league sources tell Y! Sports.
> 
> Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA
> The Rockets send Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb and future draft considerations to the Thunder for Harden, sources tell Y! Sports.
> 
> Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA
> As part of deal, Thunder will receive "significant" future draft picks from Houston, source tells Y! Sports.
> 
> Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA
> Along with All-Star guard James Harden, the Thunder will send Cole Aldridge, Lazr Hayward and Daquan Cook to the Rockets, source tells Y!
> 
> Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA
> Houston sends two 2013 first-round picks (from Dallas and Toronto) to Oklahoma CIty, source tells Y!
> 
> Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA
> Houston also sends a 2013 second-round pick (via Charlotte) to Thunder.
> 
> Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA
> Talks on an extension broke down between the Thunder and Harden on an extension, and Presti moved quickly to trade him.


TL;DR = 

Rockets get James Harden, Cole Aldrich, Daequan Cook, Lazar Hayward
Thunder get Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb, draft picks


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## Dissonance

*Re: TWITTER: James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

WOW, they didn't waste anytime. OKC saying you don't accept our cheaper extension, we're shipping your ass out.


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## Maravilla

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*











Well done, Thunder. Well done.


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## Bubbles

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

Thunder did pretty well here.


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## Jamel Irief

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

When did James Harden become an all-star? bogus twatter report


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## 36 Karat

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

Hahahaha James Harden, look at you now. Thunder saying "we don't play that.."


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## seifer0406

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

If this is true OKC did well getting assets in return. However they are definitely worse off in terms of talent after the trade. Harden fills a specific need for them as Westbrook isn't much of a distributor. OKC gets no such player in return and will have to look for someone else to get Kevin Durant the ball in crunch time.


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## hobojoe

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

Harden is going to put up some numbers in Houston.


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## Floods

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA
Houston sends two 2013 first-round picks (from Dallas and Toronto) to Oklahoma CIty, source tells Y!

Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA
Houston also sends a 2013 second-round pick (via Charlotte) to Thunder.

Quite a haul for OKC.


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## NOFX22

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

Now harden can get a 90 million deal right?


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## Dissonance

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



NOFX22 said:


> Now harden can get a 90 million deal right?


$60M. There's a limit.


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## FSH

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

I would say this trade is more about Jeremy Lamb then Kevin Martin. Martin is a FA after the year isnt he?

But anyways...Wow just wow that was fast


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## LA68

*Re: TWITTER: James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



Dissonance said:


> WOW, they didn't waste anytime. OKC saying you don't accept our cheaper extension, we're shipping your ass out.


You never let a player dictate any deals your team makes - Jerry West

OKC got away like bandits. Martin is expiring and he can get by for one season. Lamb is on a rookie deal for years. And OKC knows how to make the most of those picks. 

Undoubtedly Houston will give Harden what he wants. Houston now has three big money deals with guys who have never started a full season. 

Houston knew this season was gonna be a dud. I guess they had to do something.


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## Floods

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

Yeah Martin's in the last year of his deal.

Everyone's reporting this now, I think 'twitter' can be taken out of the thread title.


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## LA68

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



FSH said:


> I would say this trade is more about Jeremy Lamb then Kevin Martin. Martin is a FA after the year isnt he?
> 
> But anyways...Wow just wow that was fast


Bingo ! The new cap rules are in play here. They couldn't keep the whole team together and stay under the tax. Someone had to go.


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## Maravilla

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

Damn what? Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb (lottery pick), and 2 first round picks?


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## Floods

*Re: TWITTER: James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



LA68 said:


> OKC got away like bandits. Martin is expiring and he can get by for one season. Lamb is on a rookie deal for years. And OKC knows how to make the most of those picks.


Those could be good picks too. Toronto's is guaranteed lottery, and Dallas is looking good for a free fall this year.


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## Headliner

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

lol Harden. When post season hits, he'll realize he should of shut his mouth and took whatever offer they gave him.


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## Floods

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



chilltown said:


> Damn what? Kevin Martin, Jeremy Lamb (lottery pick), and 2 first round picks?


Yeah, and Charlotte's 2nd rounder, which should be in the 31-34 range.

Presti just Sandusky'd Morey.


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## FSH

*Re: TWITTER: James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



Floods said:


> Those could be good picks too. Toronto's is guaranteed lottery, and Dallas is looking good for a free fall this year.


Could they also move Martin Expiring for a pick? Kevin Martin doesnt seem like the guy that will fit with Westbrooke and Durant


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## LA68

*Re: TWITTER: James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



Floods said:


> Those could be good picks too. Toronto's is guaranteed lottery, and Dallas is looking good for a free fall this year.


They might be needing a big man or two by then. Fits perfectly.


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## Pacers Fan

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

Good deal for OKC. They got a good return for Harden now in Martin, some great future pieces in Lamb, and the Toronto pick, can keep together the rest of their core, and perhaps most importantly, they don't have to deal with the speculation about Harden leaving all season. It's entirely possible that given events with superstar sign and trades in the past, and that Harden isn't a superstar, OKC might've been lucky to deal him for a first round pick this upcoming summer.


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## FSH

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

That Raptors pick could seriously be a top 3 pick..What if OKC ends up with Noel or Zeller?


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## Pacers Fan

*Re: TWITTER: James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



FSH said:


> Could they also move Martin Expiring for a pick? Kevin Martin doesnt seem like the guy that will fit with Westbrooke and Durant


That's my main concern. Martin's a hell of a shooter, but he plays a lot like Durant on offense, and he doesn't have the defensive capabilities Harden had. OKC will have some trouble defending the wing this season when Thabo Sefolosha isn't in the game.


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## LA68

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



Pacers Fan said:


> Good deal for OKC. They got a good return for Harden now in Martin, some great future pieces in Lamb, and the Toronto pick, can keep together the rest of their core, and perhaps most importantly, they don't have to deal with the speculation about Harden leaving all season. It's entirely possible that given events with superstar sign and trades in the past, and that Harden isn't a superstar, OKC might've been lucky to deal him for a first round pick this upcoming summer.


Isn't it nice for a team to just do the deal instead of letting it linger all season long ? This tells you OKC wants no distractions. Just focus on getting back to the finals.


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## NOFX22

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



Dissonance said:


> $60M. There's a limit.


No they can offer him five years which he can over 90 million. The Derrick rose exception


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## Diable

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

If you're serious about winning a title this year it's a big step back. Harden was really their primary playmaker when he was on the court and playmaking is the largest weakness that team has. OKC's team assist and turnover numbers were already way too similar, now they are going to have a big problem in that area. Martin is the opposite of that. Maynor's status becomes a huge deal in my mind. I can't recall what his contract is or whether or not he's going to be good to go. Long term this is a great deal for the Thunder, but when you have Kevin Durant I don't know that you should be looking far down the line.


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## Floods

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



FSH said:


> That Raptors pick could seriously be a top 3 pick..What if OKC ends up with Noel or Zeller?


Sam Presti is laughing at the NBA right now.

OKC has the flexibility to make more moves now.


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## Dissonance

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



NOFX22 said:


> No they can offer him five years which he can over 90 million. The Derrick rose exception





Nope. 




> Chris Broussard ‏@Chris_Broussard
> 
> OKC offered JH $55.5 million/4 years, $4.5 mill less than max he coveted & will get from Houston. OKC also gets Charlotte's 2013 2nd rnd pic
> 
> 
> Adrian Wojnarowski ‏@WojYahooNBA
> 
> Houston plans to give James Harden a four year, $60 million extension once deal is completed, league sources tell Y! Sports.


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## Maravilla

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

To hell with everyone who allowed Perry Jones to fall to the Thunder in the draft as well.


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## King Joseus

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

Derrick Rose rule:



> However, a player coming off his rookie scale contract is eligible to sign for 30% of the cap if he was voted to start in two All-Star Games, was named to an All-NBA Team twice, or was named MVP


Devil is in the details, NOFX. Same thing on the Bird rights as mentioned by EH in other thread.


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## Diable

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



chilltown said:


> To hell with everyone who allowed Perry Jones to fall to the Thunder in the draft as well.



That was Perry Jones who did that


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## Jamel Irief

Wow... Compare this to what Orlando got for Dwight.


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## LA68

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



Floods said:


> Sam Presti is laughing at the NBA right now.
> 
> OKC has the flexibility to make more moves now.





chilltown said:


> To hell with everyone who allowed Perry Jones to fall to the Thunder in the draft as well.


Who says the small market franchises can't survive ?? Get some people in your front office with brains and balls and look what can happen.

Get to the finals and get Jones and Lamb out of this draft...Not bad at all.


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## LA68

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



Jamel Irief said:


> Wow... Compare this to what Orlando got for Dwight.


Orlando should have gotten expiring deals to clear space or young prospects on rookie scale. 

Orlando got neither. OKC got both.


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## Floods

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

EHMunro is gonna shit a chicken when he hears about this. :laugh:


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## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

OKC is not ****ing around. Great move. Especially if that pick turns into a top 3 pick.


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## King Joseus

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

Those firsts are protected, yeah? I'm sure they'll still be good, but more of a down-the-line investment at this point than next year.


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## Floods

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

Nothing about pick protection has been reported.


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## FSH

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

Anyone else reading reports that Kevin Durant is pissed? Which he should be because Kevin Martin is not gonna fit with him and Westbrooke


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## King Joseus

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

NBADraft.net:



> Rockets receive the Mavericks' 2013 first-round pick. (top 20 protected until 2017). via Lakers (Odom) (Jordan Hill trade) (Jordan Hill trade 03-15-12)
> Houston	Rockets receive the Raptors' 2013 first-round pick (Top 3 protected and 15-30 in 2013, top 2 protected and 15-30 in 2014 and '15, Top 1 protected and 15-30 in 2016 and '17, and unprotected in 2018. (Kyle Lowry trade) (Kyle Lowry trade 07-11-12)


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## LA68

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

If the picks are unprotected, this is robbery. I read there might be a Charlotte 2nd round pick which is like a first round pick too.


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## Game3525

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

Did not see that coming.


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## Diable

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

I'd guess that the Toronto pick probably ends up around 8 to 12. They aren't going to more terrible than everyone in the East, but they won't be good either. A lot of the other bad Eastern Conference teams will be tanking after the season is a wash and since they don't have a pick to tank for they won't.


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## Floods

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



King Joseus said:


> NBADraft.net:


Ah. Still, getting one guaranteed lottery pick out of this is a good deal. Ideally for OKC the pick would be top 3 this year (and stay with Toronto), but end up in the 3-5 range for the loaded 2014 draft. Chances of that are slim though.


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## Hyperion

And..... bye bye Harden.

Link: The ESPN


> Unable to work out an extension with James Harden, the Oklahoma City Thunder traded the Sixth Man of the Year to the Houston Rockets on Saturday night, breaking up the young core of the Western Conference champions.
> 
> 
> The Thunder acquired guards Kevin Martin and Jeremy Lamb, two first-round picks and a second-round pick in the surprising deal that was completed Saturday night. Oklahoma City also sent center Cole Aldrich, and forwards Daequan Cook and Lazar Hayward to Houston.
> 
> Wednesday's deadline to extend Harden or allow him to become a restricted free agent next July had been hanging over the Thunder from the moment they reported to training camp.
> 
> Harden will become a free agent next summer if Houston doesn't sign him to an extension by Wednesday, but sources told ESPN.com's Marc Stein late Saturday the Rockets intend to sign the swingman to the max contract extension he was seeking from the Thunder before Wednesday's midnight deadline.
> 
> The Thunder offered Harden $55.5 million over four years -- $4.5 million less than the max deal Harden coveted and will get from the Rockets, sources told ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard.
> 
> "We wanted to sign James to an extension, but at the end of the day, these situations have to work for all those involved. Our ownership group again showed their commitment to the organization with several significant offers," Thunder general manager Sam Presti said in a statement.


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## Floods

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*

nvm


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## HKF

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*

Horrible deal for Houston. Just horrible. Nice work Morey.


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## E.H. Munro

*Re: TWITTER: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



FSH said:


> That Raptors pick could seriously be a top 3 pick..What if OKC ends up with Noel or Zeller?


It won't be because the conditions on the pick prevented Houston from cashing in if the pick was good.


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## E.H. Munro

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*



HKF said:


> Horrible deal for Houston. Just horrible. Nice work Morey.


Morey will finally have his dream, though, a 41-41 team that underperforms his magic formula by 20 wins.


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## Dean the Master

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*

Fear the Beard!!! It's going to be a fun season down in Houston.


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## rocketeer

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*

nice move for the thunder. martin expires and they have lamb and picks to restock on cheap salaries.

i like the deal for the rockets as well even though they gave up a ton. the harden/lin backcourt is going to be a pretty interesting pairing.


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## MemphisX

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*

Good deal for Okc? They are going to need to make some more moves now. As a Grizzlies fan, I love this deal both ways.

Also, I think Okc and other people are taking for granted how close they were to winning it all. To squander that based on $1 million per year is asinine IMO. They should have fought that fight with Ibaka. I am not saying Harden is some future great but he was a great fit. Not to many other players are going to not start and not bitch about it especially after you send the message that your sacrifice will not be honored by the franchise.


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## Ballscientist

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*

Pretty good deal for Thunder, not great at all.

Rockets sent Raptors first round, Mavs first round and a 2nd round to Thunder. It is not much.

Rockets total team salaries = 40 million after the deal, highest paid player = $5 million

Rockets starters - 
Omer Asik
Patrick Patterson
Chandler Parson
James Harden
Jeremy Lin


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*

Harden has agreed to sign with Rockets for 4 years max before the deal.

One thing I completely don't understand is that you guys are discussing another team will sign him next summer.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*

Wait...the Toronto pick is protected??


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*



King Sancho Fantastic said:


> Wait...the Toronto pick is protected??


I think both first rounds are protected.


----------



## Floods

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*

1-3 and 15-30 protected.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*



Floods said:


> 1-3 and 15-30 protected.


How does that work?

15-30 protected


----------



## 29380

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*



Ballscientist said:


> How does that work?
> 
> 15-30 protected


Guaranteed lottery pick


----------



## rocketeer

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*



MemphisX said:


> Good deal for Okc? They are going to need to make some more moves now. As a Grizzlies fan, I love this deal both ways.


the thunder couldn't pay to keep everyone. i still think westbrook should have been the guy to go but clearly they decided on harden. now they replace him with another high level scorer on an expiring deal, a talented rookie, and reasonable picks to add more talent where they need it.


----------



## Cris

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*

Another crazy NBA offseason. Since June, we've had 31 trades involving 96 players. And 29 of 30 teams - all but the Spurs - made a trade.


----------



## kbdullah

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*

Like it for both teams. People forget Houston was in playoff position last year before they got done over by injuries to Martin and some other guys. Martin was going to walk in the offseason anyway, and still might, and they got a high-profile guy in Harden who will help change Houston's image as an undesirable place to play. Lamb plus picks and the worthy expiring is fair. Biggest concern for Rockets would be the contract given to Harden. 

I definitely agree Harden's playmaking will be missed -is Maynor healthy again? But the Thunder have Durant Westbrook Ibaka locked up plus a full cupboard of Lamb, Perry Jones, and picks. Can't be mad at that.


----------



## Laker Freak

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*

Looks like Houston plans on making Harden the Joe Johnson of this generation.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin*



Diable said:


> If you're serious about winning a title this year it's a big step back. Harden was really their primary playmaker when he was on the court and playmaking is the largest weakness that team has. OKC's team assist and turnover numbers were already way too similar, now they are going to have a big problem in that area. Martin is the opposite of that. Maynor's status becomes a huge deal in my mind. I can't recall what his contract is or whether or not he's going to be good to go. Long term this is a great deal for the Thunder, but when you have Kevin Durant I don't know that you should be looking far down the line.


Here we go overrating Harden again. I'm willing to say the Thunder won't be in any worse shape without him. They're deep.


----------



## R-Star

Hibachi! said:


> Lol. See ya Harden.


I thought it would be a trade deadline deal, or maybe at next years lotto in a sign and trade.


Good call.


----------



## roux

merged


----------



## roux

love this deal for okc.. i like lamb alot and he could easily fill that harden role, plus the firsts...great deal


----------



## R-Star

roux2dope said:


> love this deal for okc.. i like lamb alot and he could easily fill that harden roll, plus the firsts...great deal


Agreed. I'm not sure Lamb turns into as good a player as Harden will show as the Rockets #1, but I think he'll be more than able to come in as the primary scorer off the bench.

OKC has a lot of weapons that can also fill in for the shots Harden was taking, and its not like he added much of anything on defense. The people saying how much they'll miss Harden will be surprised.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*



MemphisX said:


> Good deal for Okc? They are going to need to make some more moves now. As a Grizzlies fan, I love this deal both ways.
> 
> Also, I think Okc and other people are taking for granted how close they were to winning it all. To squander that based on $1 million per year is asinine IMO. They should have fought that fight with Ibaka. I am not saying Harden is some future great but he was a great fit. Not to many other players are going to not start and not bitch about it especially after you send the message that your sacrifice will not be honored by the franchise.


I agree with this, although if they flip Martin and picks for someone better I might change my opinion.

Lamb is not the same type of player as Harden either. He is more likely to be pulling up for mid range jumpers than attacking the hoop and creating for himself and others.

And a horrible deal for the Rockets.


----------



## e-monk

Presti worked Morey like a sock puppet - Martin can fill the scoring 6th man role this season, Lamb could develop into that role over the next couple years, the lotto pick will be worth something - the thunder are deeper and better off financially for a longer period - didnt really hurt themselves that badly short term and did themselves a world of good long term

btw Harden strikes me as a little chokey and not just because of his spotty finals performance


----------



## Hyperion

So Harden for Martin in itself is a decent return for Harden. On top of that, they get two lotto picks?! Houston has made some fantastic trades this offseason if its goal is to become the worst team in the league. They have two possibly very good players and a whole lotta bad.


----------



## BlakeJesus

I think this makes sense for both sides. Thunder were going to struggle to keep Harden going forward and they filled the role with an efficient scorer, a young guard prospect, and picks. I think having Harden is a better situation than having Kevin Martin/Jeremy Lamb this season, but this is a business and things like this need to happen if both sides don't want the same things.

As for the Rockets, I don't know if it's a perfect move but they are manufacturing their own star power and I definitely appreciate that. Jeremy Lin/James Harden is a very interesting backcourt duo, and my initial reaction to the thought is positive. I want to see it before I say anything definitively, but the Rockets have positioned themselves to be a much better team this year and going forward with what they've done this past offseason.


----------



## GNG

I always thought signed draft picks couldn't be traded until Dec. 15, same as offseason free agents. Something that was eliminated in the new CBA, I assume.

In the one preseason game I saw of Jeremy Lamb, he looked like just a guy, but it wouldn't surprise me if he turned into _something _in Oklahoma City. Just how it always seems to work out.

Martin's a selfish player and not the creator that Harden is. Entering a contract year though, so could go either way. I think OKC takes a small step back this season in order to make a bigger leap forward if those picks turn out like people think they might.


----------



## Basel

Suddenly I feel a bit more confident that the Lakers will win the West.


----------



## 29380

Cinco de Mayo said:


> I always thought signed draft picks couldn't be traded until Dec. 15, same as offseason free agents. Something that was eliminated in the new CBA, I assume.


Draft picks can be traded 30 days after they sign.


----------



## Mrs. Thang

OKC got very good value on paper (more than Orlando got for Dwight Howard!) but that doesn't mean it was a good deal for them. The downgrade from Harden to Martin this year isn't huge, but a team that has realistic expectations of winning a championship should never make a move that makes them worse. I like Jeremy Lamb but the downgrade to him next year will be significant.

I don't think the draft picks help them all that much. The Lakers one isn't going to be good and the Raptors one is lottery protected. I don't see how late first round picks are going to crack an already busy rotation.


----------



## BlakeJesus

Cinco de Mayo said:


> I always thought signed draft picks couldn't be traded until Dec. 15, same as offseason free agents. Something that was eliminated in the new CBA, I assume.
> 
> In the one preseason game I saw of Jeremy Lamb, he looked like just a guy, but it wouldn't surprise me if he turned into _something _in Oklahoma City. Just how it always seems to work out.
> 
> Martin's a selfish player and not the creator that Harden is. Entering a contract year though, so could go either way. I think OKC takes a small step back this season in order to make a bigger leap forward if those picks turn out like people think they might.


Yeah with those picks, Jeremy Lamb, Perry Jones, and obviously Durant/Westbrook/Ibaka they have an extremely bright future.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

I don't like this deal. Although OKC did get something good back in return, overall it doesn't fully make up for losing Harden, and considering how they're trying to win a title this year, I think this takes them a step back if anything.

As for Harden, he should've just taken the first deal that they offered him. Now his chances at gunning for a title are gone. ****ing idiot.


----------



## Floods

I doubt Harden cares about his title chances. He wants to get paid. At this stage of his career I can't really blame him.


----------



## e-monk

a thought: short term it's not just whether Martin is as good as Harden but rather whether Martin playing in a contract year is as good for the team as a potentially distracted and distracting Harden who might be moved at any time up to the trade deadline and what could that uncertainty do to team chemistry and focus?


----------



## Luke

I feel a lot more comfortable as a Lakers fan after this trade. I don't think that the deal is necessarily bad for the Thunder, in fact in the long run I think they will benefit from this, but they will be a weaker team next season.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

Man I forgot that OKC drafted Perry Jones too. So much much young potential on that team it's scary.


----------



## Bogg

Mrs. Thang said:


> I don't think the draft picks help them all that much. The Lakers one isn't going to be good and the Raptors one is lottery protected. I don't see how late first round picks are going to crack an already busy rotation.


The Raptors pick is protected in a way to _ensure_ it's a lottery pick. The only way that pick falls out of the lottery is if the Raptors make the playoffs every season through 2018. Additionally, the other draft pick is Dallas' first that's top-20 protected through 2017 and unprotected in 2018.

EDIT: Additionally, the haul that OKC got is why I don't understand why Orlando didn't just send Dwight to Houston.


----------



## MemphisX

One thing needs to be noted. I can tell from this thread that in the last few years of Houston's medicrity, most posters are not up to date on the current version of Kevin Martin. He ain't good.


----------



## e-monk

he is what he is which is what he's always been - he's an effective volume scorer who (btw) had one of his best seasons in 2010-11 but was hurt last year


----------



## Diable

Martin provides the opposite of what Harden brought the Thunder. Harden was that team's primary facilitator down the stretch of close games. Martin is the opposite of that, he's a one-dimensional player who is aging and not all that great at the one-dimension. The big problem with this trade is that Harden took a lot of pressure off of Westbrook and allowed him to do what he was capable of doing. The big way that the Thunder got better last year was by eliminating some of the negative plays from Westbrook. It's pretty questionable as to whether or not they'll be able to maintain that tactic now. This was accomplished by taking the ball away from him.

In fact Eric Maynor will be more important to the Thunder's chances at a title than Martin will be. He's going to have to handle the traditional PG responsibilities a lot more than he did when he was last healthy. Martin provides some scoring, but it's not going to be impactful really. Hard to imagine that he'll be able to play effectively with Durant or Westbrook.


----------



## e-monk

dude, Martin is 28 and he's only there for one year - if you factor in the uncertainty and inevitable trade scenarios that would go along with Harden's decision this is a win - the moment he turned down the OKC offer Harden was not going to be a member of the Thunder after february one way or another and the Thunder were'nt going to get the same return from him they'd gotten in previous seasons - add in the way this deal lines up the Thunder's next 5 years it's a pretty clear upgrade and at least situationally it's pretty close to a best case scenario


----------



## Ben

Harden, what an idiot. Really interested to see what he can do in the #1 role though. OKC are already a great team but if those picks pan out well for them, I'm scared.


----------



## Luke

So what kind of numbers do we think Harden puts up next year? I'd say something like 23/5/5 on a mid 30's win team sounds fairly reasonable.


----------



## R-Star

Diable said:


> Martin provides the opposite of what Harden brought the Thunder. Harden was that team's primary facilitator down the stretch of close games. Martin is the opposite of that, he's a one-dimensional player who is aging and not all that great at the one-dimension. The big problem with this trade is that Harden took a lot of pressure off of Westbrook and allowed him to do what he was capable of doing. The big way that the Thunder got better last year was by eliminating some of the negative plays from Westbrook. It's pretty questionable as to whether or not they'll be able to maintain that tactic now. This was accomplished by taking the ball away from him.
> 
> In fact Eric Maynor will be more important to the Thunder's chances at a title than Martin will be. He's going to have to handle the traditional PG responsibilities a lot more than he did when he was last healthy. Martin provides some scoring, but it's not going to be impactful really. Hard to imagine that he'll be able to play effectively with Durant or Westbrook.


You keep saying this and it simply isn't true. Harden was the _occasional_ facilitator to close out games. More often than that it was Russ who continued to bring the ball up.


And what exactly is Harden if not one dimensional? Last year is the only year he was better than Martin in the assist/rebound categories and it was by about 1 each. Hardens not a stopper, and he's been lucky enough to have teams top defenders focusing on Durant and Westbrook over him. While Kevin Martin has always been on shitty teams as the 1a or 1b focus (which is sad really).


People keep acting like Martin is supposed to go to the Thunder and lead them somewhere, when in reality hes going there to come off the bench and provide a scoring punch. He'll do that, and he'll do it just fine. His shooting percentages should go up with the slack coverage he'll get on OKC, and Hardens will undoubtedly go down now that he'll face teams primary guard defender.


Quit playing Harden up to be some multifaceted two way player who's doing everything out there. He wasn't and he won't be on the Rockets either. He's a scorer. He never did a hell of a lot else out there.


----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> So what kind of numbers do we think Harden puts up next year? I'd say something like 23/5/5 on a mid 30's win team sounds fairly reasonable.


Sounds about right to me. I see his shooting going back down to around .43-.45 though.


----------



## Mrs. Thang

How is Harden an idiot for wanting to be paid his market value? Players taking less money to play with their friends is what's ruining competitive balance. Why do people think it is honorable to settle for being a supporting player on a good team when they can try to make their own name as the top guy and get payed more for doing it?


----------



## Luke

45% sounds about right. Harden is not one dimensional though. He's an above average ball handler and facilitator for a wing. Hopefully for the Rockets he'll be able to hide some of Lin's faults out there.


----------



## Wade County

I think Harden will put up around 20/5/5 on 45%. He'll be good for Houston, but he's not max worthy. He'll still get it though.


----------



## R-Star

Mrs. Thang said:


> How is Harden an idiot for wanting to be paid his market value? Players taking less money to play with their friends is what's ruining competitive balance. Why do people think it is honorable to settle for being a supporting player on a good team when they can try to make their own name as the top guy and get payed more for doing it?


Yet every CBA fans come out and say the "Well if the stupid owners didn't overpay!" cliche


There's arguments for either side. I just hope people realize that teams will always give out terrible contracts. The Rockets have been the worst so far. Harden and Lin are overpaid by a million or so a season, and Asik.... well that's just disgusting. He's not a starting center.


----------



## e-monk

Mrs. Thang said:


> How is Harden an idiot for wanting to be paid his market value? Players taking less money to play with their friends is what's ruining competitive balance. Why do people think it is honorable to settle for being a supporting player on a good team when they can try to make their own name as the top guy and get payed more for doing it?



I dont think he's stupid but Im not going to congratulate him for getting that extra 10% by leaving a team where he'd be contending every year to play for a team where he'll be lucky to get into let alone out of the first round


----------



## Wade County

Asik has been balling in the preseason. He may live up to that contract yet. 

Don't expect much offensively, but the guy will defend and get rebounds.


----------



## seifer0406

Ben said:


> Harden, what an idiot. Really interested to see what he can do in the #1 role though. OKC are already a great team but if those picks pan out well for them, I'm scared.


OKC and/or Houston might be losers in this trade but the only party that's definitely not a loser in this deal is Harden. I would understand if Harden is closer to 30, but at 23 and have never been a full time starter, is it really that absurd to think that he might want to try to be more than just a role player? On top of that he got more money to go with the increased role. OKC is asking Harden to make a sacrifice on and off the court and while people might praise Harden for going along with it it's not wrong for him to turn down the offer.


----------



## MemphisX

e-monk said:


> I dont think he's stupid but Im not going to congratulate him for getting that extra 10% by leaving a team where he'd be contending every year to play for a team where he'll be lucky to get into let alone out of the first round


I fault any organization that will break up a title contender over $1.25 million a season. When Okc is getting knocked off in the playoffs, those draft picks are not going to be to helpful. Let's stop acting like it is 1996, a 4 year contract to a 23 year old player is not a back breaker. They were not making a 7 year committment.


----------



## hobojoe

It's pretty funny how you guys can sit behind your computers and call a guy a "****ing idiot" for making a decision that just resulted in him inking a max contract. Funny stuff.


----------



## roux

Houston really wants to stay medicore then they should max harden out... I like harden, he is one hell of a #3 on any team in the league but he will be a poor #1 option.... can see this going the Michael Redd route for the Rockets


----------



## seifer0406

hobojoe said:


> It's pretty funny how you guys can sit behind your computers and call a guy a "****ing idiot" for making a decision that just resulted in him inking a max contract. Funny stuff.


it's only 6 million dollars, a figure that Ben will likely never earn in his entire lifetime.


----------



## kbdullah

seifer0406 said:


> OKC and/or Houston might be losers in this trade but the only party that's definitely not a loser in this deal is Harden. I would understand if Harden is closer to 30, but at 23 and have never been a full time starter, is it really that absurd to think that he might want to try to be more than just a role player? On top of that he got more money to go with the increased role. OKC is asking Harden to make a sacrifice on and off the court and while people might praise Harden for going along with it it's not wrong for him to turn down the offer.


True. Plus Lin and Asik contracts are only three years. The preseason prior to Harden's last year, the Rockets will have cap space entering into Harden's contract year and beginning of his prime. Plus, they'll have at least made the team relevant and changed the culture. You tend to have to overpay to get that first guy in there that makes free agents think your destination is worthwhile.


----------



## Diable

hobojoe said:


> It's pretty funny how you guys can sit behind your computers and call a guy a "****ing idiot" for making a decision that just resulted in him inking a max contract. Funny stuff.


Under the current system everyone who is actually a good player is going to expect a max deal. It really looks like every team is going to have two max players. What people don't realize is that most of these guys are going to look at that Max deal as a status symbol. They're going to look at all of the above average players who have max deals and think that they are just as above average as that guy.


----------



## Hyperion

Not so, the new cba really penalizes going into luxury tax.


----------



## Jace

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*

I'm thinking Houston thinks Harden can be prime Brandon Roy. Does anyone see that happening?



Cris said:


> Another crazy NBA offseason. Since June, we've had 31 trades involving 96 players. And 29 of 30 teams - all but the Spurs - made a trade.


Who'd Miami trade?


----------



## Jamel Irief

Stupid Lacob could of probably got Harden for Monta and Harrison Barnes. Now he has that loser Bogut instead.


----------



## Jace

Was just about to bring up Monta, similar stats to Roy, but was put in a role as THE guy, kinda like what's happening with Harden.

I don't think OKC wanted Ellis.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*



Jace said:


> I'm thinking Houston thinks Harden can be prime Brandon Roy. Does anyone see that happening?
> 
> 
> 
> Who'd Miami trade?


Roy had the X-factor. His on court abilities actually exceeded his physical abilities. He was one of the few players that I always checked for on league pass because he was just so lethal down the stretch. Not sure Harden can be that for Houston but they definitely added a couple of story lines to an already highly anticipated season.

I hope Harden really blossoms as the #1 guy. He wore it well in college.


----------



## Jace

I just have trouble seeing him be what Roy was as a leader in the NBA. Houston took some big risks, but off the court they're good moves.


----------



## Wade County

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*



Jace said:


> I'm thinking Houston thinks Harden can be prime Brandon Roy. Does anyone see that happening?
> 
> 
> 
> Who'd Miami trade?


Arnett moultrie for Justin Hamilton and a future 1st?


----------



## Porn Player

Kevin Martin is being underrated in this thread. He's basically been a 20+ scorer for 7 seasons, he hits the boards well and had a pretty impressive passing game. 

Thunder just bent Houston over.


----------



## R-Star

Porn Player said:


> Kevin Martin is being underrated in this thread. He's basically been a 20+ scorer for 7 seasons, he hits the boards well and had a pretty impressive passing game.
> 
> Thunder just bent Houston over.


But... but... he's 28!


You should have realized by now that around here, whichever player has a ton of hype is the best. And a decent guy on a non exciting team like Kevin Martin gets underrated like crazy.



I said last year that Harden was the most overrated player on these forums. Its pretty clear I was right.


----------



## RollWithEm

James Harden was better last season than Kevin Martin will be this season on the Thunder because he is just the better player. Additionally, Harden is a MUCH better fit on the Rockets than he was on the Thunder. He is certainly worth as much to Houston as Hibbert is worth to Indy. He should get Hibbert money, IMO.


----------



## kbdullah

Grantland has a quality article on the transaction.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8566897/a-look-oklahoma-city-trade-james-harden-houston-rockets



> ...
> But spare me the dreck about how James Harden should have sacrificed for the greater good. He's under no obligation to do so. The Thunder's owners haven't sacrificed profits here; why should Harden? The Thunder brain trust believes in the importance of sacrifice for the greater good, harking back to Tim Duncan taking less than the max in 2007 to help San Antonio afford its complementary stars. They wanted Harden to make that sort of sacrifice. He didn't, and the Thunder voluntarily chose to cut their championship odds in order to save the equivalent of about $1.5 million in salary and a few million more in tax payments every season.
> 
> ...
> 
> As for the Rockets, they've paid a steep price, as you can trace all the assets they've sent in this deal back to Kyle Lowry (the price for the Raptors pick) and Samuel Dalembert (the price for the pick that became Lamb). Harden isn't a top-three overall player like Howard, Houston's first choice, but he has the potential to be a top-15 or even top-10 player when unleashed as the focal point of his team. He flopped in the Finals, and it is astounding how many fans and writers are judging Harden's contributions based solely on his play in that series — and against one of the league's most athletic defenses.


----------



## Jamel Irief

kbdullah said:


> Grantland has a quality article on the transaction.
> 
> http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8566897/a-look-oklahoma-city-trade-james-harden-houston-rockets


Heres the thing, and I'lll say it again, fans are beyond fickle. So if their lasting memory of Harden is him bombing in the finals they'll use that to judge him more than they should. It's like I was telling Dre in the finals last year when he was stating that Harden was due to get "near max" dollars until he slumped in the finals, GMs are smarter than the posters here.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> But... but... he's 28!
> 
> 
> You should have realized by now that around here, whichever player has a ton of hype is the best. And a decent guy on a non exciting team like Kevin Martin gets underrated like crazy.


He's also played three full seasons in a nine year career. Maybe we can give him a pass his rookie year, but that still leaves us with a 3/8 chance that he plays a full season for the Plunder. He's also a black hole on offense and a mediocre defender to boot. As a Rockets' fan I'm glad to see the last of him.


----------



## MemphisX

The Reggie Miller flailing rule change kind of neutered Kevin martin whose shtick was to flop around like a wounded animal into defenders to get free throws.


----------



## Dre

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*



MemphisX said:


> *Roy had the X-factor. His on court abilities actually exceeded his physical abilities. *He was one of the few players that I always checked for on league pass because he was just so lethal down the stretch. Not sure Harden can be that for Houston but they definitely added a couple of story lines to an already highly anticipated season.
> 
> I hope Harden really blossoms as the #1 guy. He wore it well in college.


Definitely the case for James Harden.

That said I'm on the fence about whether he can be a franchise/primary player.

We all saw this coming, but now we have a chance to see whether all these "you don't understand how good Harden can be" will be vindicated sooner than usual.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Jamel Irief said:


> Heres the thing, and I'lll say it again, fans are beyond fickle. So if their lasting memory of Harden is him bombing in the finals they'll use that to judge him more than they should. It's like I was telling Dre in the finals last year when he was stating that Harden was due to get "near max" dollars until he slumped in the finals, GMs are smarter than the posters here.


I think the Roy Hibbert thread was much the same with the Pacer fans getting angry when anyone suggested their beloved center would be looking for a max deal.


----------



## Diable

Or that Hibbert might consider taking all that money from anyone except the Pacers.


----------



## R-Star

Diable said:


> Or that Hibbert might consider taking all that money from anyone except the Pacers.


Feel free to link that champ.


The only thing said was that the Pacers would match any offer.


----------



## Jace

*Re: OFFICIAL: OKC sends James Harden to Houston for Kevin Martin, Lamb, picks galore*

Martin's 29 and will be 30 in Feb. Couldn't let that one go anymore.



Wade County said:


> Arnett moultrie for Justin Hamilton and a future 1st?


AAAAAAHAHAHAHA

I guess that counts.


----------



## Luke

Did someone just say that Kevin Martin was a good rebounder and an above average playmaker? Wow.


----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> Did someone just say that Kevin Martin was a good rebounder and an above average playmaker? Wow.


Did they?


----------



## Luke

Porn Player said:


> Kevin Martin is being underrated in this thread. He's basically been a 20+ scorer for 7 seasons, he hits the boards well and had a pretty impressive passing game.
> 
> Thunder just bent Houston over.





R-Star said:


> Did they?


Essentially.


----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> Essentially.


I'd say he hits the boards average, and handles and passes average. 

Thing is, when a guy's getting 20ppg he handles the ball a lot and you want him to be better than average with his passing and ball handling.

In OKC he's not going to have the roll of handling the ball a ton, so its a better fit for him.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Martin isn't an average passer. Unless by average passer you mean "accidentally throws the ball once or twice a week at someone who gets a bucket".


----------



## Jace

If Eric Maynor can handle Harden's creating role, they'll be fine. Martin is a terrible defender, though. Sefolosha's getting some major minutes this year.


----------



## Luke

If you're 6'7 and you grab three boards a game then you're not average. And I have absolutely no idea where you're getting this passing thing from. Have you ever watched Kevin Martin play? He can put the ball in the bucket but that's about it.


----------



## Jace

Its gotta suck when you look so awkward doing the thing you're best at.


----------



## FSH

dont know if this has been posted yet but 



> ESPNChrisPalmer profile
> 
> ESPNChrisPalmer James Harden averaged 19.3 pts on just 11 shots per 36 min. Yes, this trade will haunt OKC.


----------



## hobojoe

Luke said:


> If you're 6'7 and you grab three boards a game then you're not average. And I have absolutely no idea where you're getting this passing thing from. Have you ever watched Kevin Martin play? He can put the ball in the bucket but that's about it.


Yea Kevin Martin is about as one dimensional as it gets in the NBA. If he's a good or average rebounder and/or passer, please start listing all of the below average rebounding and passing swing men.


----------



## MemphisX

Yeah, I am pretty sure James Harden will be a top 5 scorer this season. 

I also like how people ignore the fact Kevin Martin has never had a major role on a winning team in his career(6 career playoff games in a 10 year career:2ti. So the 20 ppg thing is total bullshit.


----------



## Porn Player

Luke said:


> If you're 6'7 and you grab three boards a game then you're not average. And I have absolutely no idea where you're getting this passing thing from. Have you ever watched Kevin Martin play? He can put the ball in the bucket but that's about it.


Career numbers show me that just 0.1 is the difference in RPG between Harden and Martin. By the way, that 0.1 is in favour of Martin. He might not have had his best year last year, but he was playing on a garbage side that asked him to carry the load offensively. 

Oh and as for the passing, one is being lauded as a really good passer of the basketball, the other is being called a black hole. KMart got up to 2.8 apg last year, only 0.9 behind Harden (but ahead of the previous year from Harden). When you have Kevin Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka, picking up gimme assists isn't going to be difficult. Martin can fill up the bucket and teams are well aware of that and will play him close, I'm confident he's good enough to make the right decision in that circumstance.


----------



## e-monk

actually if you compare their minute to minute stats the differences are bigger

but this isnt just about Martin for Harden and its not just about 1.5m a year - it's about a ton more flexibility going forward and being able to pay for 3 or 4 young guys on rookie contracts instead of just Harden + luxury tax


----------



## Porn Player

They played identical minutes last year. (although last year being a lockout year, I tend to take the stats with a grain of salt)

My point is, the difference in rebounding and passing is not the gulf some people are making out.


----------



## e-monk

no and some of it is role related - certainly Harden will be terminating more possessions with shots in his new role and I doubt as the focus of the offense (and opposing defenses) his scoring efficiency will be the same


----------



## MemphisX

e-monk said:


> actually if you compare their minute to minute stats the differences are bigger
> 
> but this isnt just about Martin for Harden and its not just about 1.5m a year - it's about a ton more flexibility going forward and being able to pay for 3 or 4 young guys on rookie contracts instead of just Harden + luxury tax


I see what you are saying but you don't piss away a chance at a title for "flexibility". Flexibility to do what exactly?


----------



## e-monk

flexibility to continue to compete for a title for several more years without getting hammered by luxury taxes while not hurting your chances all that bad this year


----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> If you're 6'7 and you grab three boards a game then you're not average. And I have absolutely no idea where you're getting this passing thing from. Have you ever watched Kevin Martin play? He can put the ball in the bucket but that's about it.


He's a shooting guard. What exactly does the height have to do with being average for a sg? 

And yes, I've watched Kevin Martin play, and yes, you guys are going out of your way to underrate the shit out of him. Hes an average passer whos now being made out to be some fumbling idiot who can't pass the ball. The guy isn't a turnover machine like hes being made out to be.



Its so pathetic on here how guys all come together to stroke each others ego's. 

"Kevin Martin sucks!"

"Yea yea! Me too! He sucks!"

Yea, no... he doesn't. His assist to turnover ratio isn't bad, so this whole idea that hes throwing the ball into the stands is plain bullshit. Not to mention guys are trying to undercut his offensive talent, when in 2010-2011 he was second behind Kobe in points per minute.



I love how everyone here has all the sudden seen 100+ Kevin Martin games. You guys are ****ing ridiculous.


----------



## R-Star

hobojoe said:


> Yea Kevin Martin is about as one dimensional as it gets in the NBA. If he's a good or average rebounder and/or passer, please start listing all of the below average rebounding and passing swing men.


Guys getting 2 rebounds a game and having as many turn overs as assists?


----------



## R-Star

MemphisX said:


> Yeah, I am pretty sure James Harden will be a top 5 scorer this season.
> 
> I also like how people ignore the fact Kevin Martin has never had a major role on a winning team in his career(6 career playoff games in a 10 year career:2ti. So the 20 ppg thing is total bullshit.


Look up the teams hes been on. Kyle Lowry and Ron Artest have been the two best players he's played with.


Nice point Memphis.


----------



## R-Star

MemphisX said:


> I see what you are saying but you don't piss away a chance at a title for "flexibility". Flexibility to do what exactly?


Keep the core together while adding quality role players around it, and hopefully grow talent from draft picks.

They sign Harden and they have way too much locked up in 4 players. Ibaka could have gone for the max if he felt like it.


----------



## RollWithEm

The other thing potentially getting lost in this trade is the fact that late lottery picks are more valuable on a team like the Thunder than they typically are on a true rebuilding squad. If Bargnani and/or Lowry have any sort of injury problems this year, that pick could get real interesting in a good draft. Also, Jeremy Lamb and Perry Jones could turn out to be starters alongside OKC's current big three if they are given the proper time to develop in this good environment.


----------



## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> The other thing potentially getting lost in this trade is the fact that late lottery picks are more valuable on a team like the Thunder than they typically are on a true rebuilding squad. If Bargnani and/or Lowry have any sort of injury problems this year, that pick could get real interesting in a good draft. Also, Jeremy Lamb and Perry Jones could turn out to be starters alongside OKC's current big three if they are given the proper time to develop in this good environment.


True. Most championship teams have to go out and sign guys every year to fill out their roster and never get decent prospects. The Lakers the only guy I can think of recently is Bynum, and the Heat have the same problem.

San Antonio is the only one off the top of my head that was able to keep a stocked talent pool through having some amazing late picks in the draft. 


Being a title contender _and_ having quality young players coming into the system is going to be a real boost for OKC.


Like everyones said, Martin won't replace Harden 100%, but they will improve in other areas because of this trade.


----------



## E.H. Munro

RollWithEm said:


> If Bargnani and/or Lowry have any sort of injury problems this year, that pick could get real interesting in a good draft.


The 2013 draft is about three players deep. So Toronto is protected if things really go south for them.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> The 2013 draft is about three players deep. So Toronto is protected if things really go south for them.


There's only going to be three meaningful NBA players to come out of the 2013 draft?


----------



## E.H. Munro

There's three guys that are pretty certain to turn into quality players, none of them likely as good as Harden, and then a huge pile of lottery tickets. The two big center prospects (Zeller & Austin) are rail thin and possibly their entire rookie contract away from being positive NBA contributors. Even Rudy Gobert (the French center) is in a similar boat, really really raw. It's just a bad draft to be picking out of the top 3. However, I expect them to deal the pick anyway to find a real third option for Westbrook & Durant.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> There's three guys that are pretty certain to turn into quality players, none of them likely as good as Harden, and then a huge pile of lottery tickets. The two big center prospects (Zeller & Austin) are rail thin and possibly their entire rookie contract away from being positive NBA contributors. Even Rudy Gobert (the French center) is in a similar boat, really really raw. It's just a bad draft to be picking out of the top 3. However, I expect them to deal the pick anyway to find a real third option for Westbrook & Durant.


Kevin Martin is a perfectly fine third option in my opinion.

Not to mention it gives more shots to the rest of a very capable and deep roster.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Kevin Martin won't result in more shots for other players. Exactly the opposite. He's always been a black hole.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> Kevin Martin won't result in more shots for other players. Exactly the opposite. He's always been a black hole.


A black hole as the #1 option. Now that he'll be the third option his shots are going to go down, and hes going to get a lot better looks.


It confuses me that people think Hardens stats are just going to go up and Martins are going to plummet down. Kevin Martin goes from having his best second option of being Kyle Lowry or a mid aged Ron Artest prior, to now being behind Durant, Westbrook, and some other talented offensive players to share shots with. 

Harden on the other hand goes from being the most sheltered offensive player in the league to being every teams #1 defensive priority. His shooting percentage is going to f'ing drop through the floor, and his turnovers are going to raise.


Why do I seem to be the only one who gets that?


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> A black hole as the #1 option. Now that he'll be the third option his shots are going to go down, and hes going to get a lot better looks.


And that will change his habit of shooting the ball pretty much every time he touches it how, exactly?



R-Star said:


> It confuses me that people think Hardens stats are just going to go up and Martins are going to plummet down.


I don't think anyone's been saying this at all. In fact, most of us have been critical of the way that the Hollingers/Berris/et al have been saying that Harden's efficiency will continue unabated. He is certainly going to pile up more counting numbers because he's going to be used in a way far more similar to Dwyane Wade circa 2008-10 than in his role in OKC. But he's certainly going to be far less efficient now that he no longer has two teammates that command a doubleteam every moment they're on the floor.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> And that will change his habit of shooting the ball pretty much every time he touches it how, exactly?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone's been saying this at all. In fact, most of us have been critical of the way that the Hollingers/Berris/et al have been saying that Harden's efficiency will continue unabated. He is certainly going to pile up more counting numbers because he's going to be used in a way far more similar to Dwyane Wade circa 2008-10 than in his role in OKC. But he's certainly going to be far less efficient now that he no longer has two teammates that command a doubleteam every moment they're on the floor.


Martin shot the ball 3 more times a game as Harden last year. Difference? Harden was the teams 3rd option while Martin was the teams 1st.


It seems to me like we're making things up here.


----------



## rocketeer

when martin is healthy, he's one of the best (if not the best) non elite scorer in the game. being the 3rd scoring option on the team probably means a much better chance that he stays healthy.

the thunder will have less versatility next season and martin is definitely a step down defensively, but that's about it. the flexibility they gain with martin's expiring contract and all the picks is probably worth that.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> Martin shot the ball 3 more times a game as Harden last year. Difference? Harden was the teams 3rd option while Martin was the teams 1st.


I guess when you're cherrypicking and looking _only_ at a season that a player missed 40% of the games due to injury and was hurt most of the remaining 60% of the games, you can find a year where said player burned up a mere 25% of his teams possessions. For reference in your same cherrypicked sample Harden used up 22% of the Thunder's possessions when he was on the floor. Yes, even in your cherrypicked example Martin was still a black hole. 

It's also fairly predictable that Martin isn't going to change. Did Brandon Bass cease to be a black hole just because he was playing with 3-4 more effective scorers? Nope. Still fired up the ball every time he got it. It's just who he is.


----------



## E.H. Munro

rocketeer said:


> the thunder will have less versatility next season and martin is definitely a step down defensively, but that's about it. the flexibility they gain with martin's expiring contract and all the picks is probably worth that.


Yeah, if they can parlay that into a real third option they'll have done well out of the deal. Similarly if Houston can now convince another star that playing in Houston gives him a chance to compete then the Harden deal will have worked out for them.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> I guess when you're cherrypicking and looking _only_ at a season that a player missed 40% of the games due to injury and was hurt most of the remaining 60% of the games, you can find a year where said player burned up a mere 25% of his teams possessions. For reference in your same cherrypicked sample Harden used up 22% of the Thunder's possessions when he was on the floor. Yes, even in your cherrypicked example Martin was still a black hole.
> 
> It's also fairly predictable that Martin isn't going to change. Did Brandon Bass cease to be a black hole just because he was playing with 3-4 more effective scorers? Nope. Still fired up the ball every time he got it. It's just who he is.


What? You actually just proved my point. Martin shot 25% of his teams possessions last year as the main offensive weapon, and Harden shot 22% as their third option.


How does that help your point EH? Enlighten us please.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> Yeah, if they can parlay that into a real third option they'll have done well out of the deal. Similarly if Houston can now convince another star that playing in Houston gives him a chance to compete then the Harden deal will have worked out for them.


Name better third options outside of LA and Miami please.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> What? You actually just proved my point. Martin shot 25% of his teams possessions last year as the main offensive weapon, and Harden shot 22% as their third option.


Problem is that Martin has done exactly this _everywhere_ regardless of who was his team's best offensive player is (I mean he was burning up these sorts of possessions in Sacramento before Bibby died and he sure as hell wasn't Houston's best offensive player, he just fired up the most shots). He just shoots and shoots and shoots. It's part of the reason that the Kings gave him away, and why the Rockets and their fans are thrilled that we won't need to see him playing for us anymore.


----------



## Luke

R-Star said:


> He's a shooting guard. What exactly does the height have to do with being average for a sg?
> 
> And yes, I've watched Kevin Martin play, and yes, you guys are going out of your way to underrate the shit out of him. Hes an average passer whos now being made out to be some fumbling idiot who can't pass the ball. The guy isn't a turnover machine like hes being made out to be.
> 
> 
> 
> Its so pathetic on here how guys all come together to stroke each others ego's.
> 
> "Kevin Martin sucks!"
> 
> "Yea yea! Me too! He sucks!"
> 
> Yea, no... he doesn't. His assist to turnover ratio isn't bad, so this whole idea that hes throwing the ball into the stands is plain bullshit. Not to mention guys are trying to undercut his offensive talent, when in 2010-2011 he was second behind Kobe in points per minute.
> 
> 
> 
> I love how everyone here has all the sudden seen 100+ Kevin Martin games. You guys are ****ing ridiculous.


What does his position have to do with anything? He's 6'7, he should be grabbing more than three boards a game. I'm not demanding that he pull down double figures every night, but he's a less effective rebounder than Chris Paul despite being well over half a foot taller. That's a problem.

Show me specifically where I underrated him. I said he was a gifted scorer and that's it. End of story. He's a role player that can put the ball in the bucket more than most players in this league and brings absolutely nothing else substantial to the table. Actually watch him play and tell me I'm wrong.


----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> What does his position have to do with anything? He's 6'7, he should be grabbing more than three boards a game. I'm not demanding that he pull down double figures every night, but he's a less effective rebounder than Chris Paul despite being well over half a foot taller. That's a problem.
> 
> Show me specifically where I underrated him. I said he was a gifted scorer and that's it. End of story. He's a role player that can put the ball in the bucket more than most players in this league and brings absolutely nothing else substantial to the table. Actually watch him play and tell me I'm wrong.


I have watched him play. Probably about the same amount as you have. No one here has seen a ton of Kevin Martin play outside of a few people.


And if you're asking what his position has to do with how many rebounds he gets a game, you don't understand the fundamentals of basketball and there isn't much point talking.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> Problem is that Martin has done exactly this _everywhere_ regardless of who was his team's best offensive player is (I mean he was burning up these sorts of possessions in Sacramento before Bibby died and he sure as hell wasn't Houston's best offensive player, he just fired up the most shots). He just shoots and shoots and shoots. It's part of the reason that the Kings gave him away, and why the Rockets and their fans are thrilled that we won't need to see him playing for us anymore.


Bibby was still terrible at that point EH. And again, name these offensive dynamo's on Houston that should have been taking the shots outside of Lowry.


----------



## Luke

Says the guy who apparently thinks that being taller doesn't help players rebound the ball. Okay.


----------



## Luke

R-Star said:


> Bibby was still terrible at that point EH. And again, name these offensive dynamo's on Houston that should have been taking the shots outside of Lowry.


Bibby was awful in Sacto? Bullshit. I know firsthand that Bibby was still a fine player even after he left the Kings. He's one of the major reasons why Atlanta doesn't have a bottom-feeder stigma anymore.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> Bibby was still terrible at that point EH. And again, name these offensive dynamo's on Houston that should have been taking the shots outside of Lowry.


Bibby at 27, 28, and 29 wasn't "terrible". Try again. And both of Houston's point guards were more effective offensive players (not to mention Scola), but again, once they passed the ball to Martin that was it. The ball was dead. That's who Martin was in Sacramento, and why they gave him away, and that's who he was in Houston, hence our relief that we turned him into James Harden. OKC fans will probably be thrilled to see the last of him as well.


----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> Bibby was awful in Sacto? Bullshit. I know firsthand that Bibby was still a fine player even after he left the Kings. He's one of the major reasons why Atlanta doesn't have a bottom-feeder stigma anymore.


Bullshit? Bibby was dropping off when he was traded. He wasn't the sell of his former self, but he wasn't a better scorer than Martin. Better offensive player? Sure, he was still a very good facilitator at that time.


----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> Says the guy who apparently thinks that being taller doesn't help players rebound the ball. Okay.


He's a sg. You rank him on rebounding against other shooting guards. That should be plain as day to anyone.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> Bibby at 27, 28, and 29 wasn't "terrible". Try again. And both of Houston's point guards were more effective offensive players (not to mention Scola), but again, once they passed the ball to Martin that was it. The ball was dead. That's who Martin was in Sacramento, and why they gave him away, and that's who he was in Houston, hence our relief that we turned him into James Harden. OKC fans will probably be thrilled to see the last of him as well.


I have a good feeling there will be a lot of quiet posters around here when Martin does a great job as OKC's third option.


I'm still waiting for you to name all those amazing third options you'd rank ahead of him.


Ill concede that terrible wasn't even close to the right description of Bibby though.


----------



## E.H. Munro

You mean a list of players that would be better as OKC's third option rather than Martin? Well, let's see, Al Horford, Andre Iguodala, Kevin Garnett, Joe Johnson, Pau Gasol, Marc Gasol, Paul Milsap, Enes Kantner, DeMarcus Cousins, Jonas Valanciunas, Roy Hibbert... should I continue?


----------



## oolalaa

A pathetic trade. I just lost a whole lot of respect for Sam Presti.


----------



## e-monk

well I think that does it ./thread


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> You mean a list of players that would be better as OKC's third option rather than Martin? Well, let's see, Al Horford, Andre Iguodala, Kevin Garnett, Joe Johnson, Pau Gasol, Marc Gasol, Paul Milsap, Enes Kantner, DeMarcus Cousins, Jonas Valanciunas, Roy Hibbert... should I continue?


No? I was pretty clear EH. Which teams in the league have a better third option than Kevin Martin?


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> No? I was pretty clear EH. Which teams in the league have a better third option than Kevin Martin?


What in the name of holy hell does that have to do with anything? But even in that case the list is pretty big, New Jersey, Boston, Philadelphia, Miami, Indiana just in the eastern conference with Chicago and Washington if/when healthy joining the list.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

E.H. Munro said:


> What in the name of holy hell does that have to do with anything? But even in that case the list is pretty big, New Jersey, Boston, Philadelphia, Miami, Indiana just in the eastern conference with Chicago and *Washington *if/when healthy joining the list.


Washington? Did I miss something here??


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> What in the name of holy hell does that have to do with anything? But even in that case the list is pretty big, New Jersey, Boston, Philadelphia, Miami, Indiana just in the eastern conference with Chicago and Washington if/when healthy joining the list.


LA and Miami are the only easy answers. Boston? No. Philly? No. Indy? Not a chance. You could argue Jersey.

Chicago? Who's the better third option? Physically name that player. Do the same for Washington. And I'd love to hear it for Indy. 


You are trying to make Kevin Martin out to be a mid 00's Ricky Davis.


----------



## E.H. Munro

XxIrvingxX said:


> Washington? Did I miss something here??


Who of John Wall, Nene Hilario or Brad Beal are you taking Martin over? And is there any way I can get you in charge of Atlanta so that Boston can get Al Horford?


----------



## MemphisX

R-Star said:


> LA and Miami are the only easy answers. Boston? No. Philly? No. Indy? Not a chance. You could argue Jersey.
> 
> Chicago? Who's the better third option? Physically name that player. Do the same for Washington. And I'd love to hear it for Indy.
> 
> 
> You are trying to make Kevin Martin out to be a mid 00's Ricky Davis.



You are going to feel real stupid in about 3 months once you get a daily dose of the dredge that Kevin Martin really is and stop looking at stats.

Decide on Luol Deng or Carlos Boozer. Both are better than Kevin Martin.


----------



## Hyperion

A fun little comparison in terms of career trajectory. Here is Kevin Martin's stat line from his 3rd pro season compared to Harden's 3rd pro season. It's hard to believe that Martin regressed so much

Martin: 20.2ppg 4.3RPG 2.2APG 1.2SPG 47%FG 38%3pt

Harden: 16.8PPG 4.1RPG 3.7APG 1.0 SPG 40%FG 30%3pt


----------



## R-Star

MemphisX said:


> You are going to feel real stupid in about 3 months once you get a daily dose of the dredge that Kevin Martin really is and stop looking at stats.
> 
> Decide on Luol Deng or Carlos Boozer. Both are better than Kevin Martin.


Carlos Boozer isn't better than anyone. Deng is a better overall player, not better offensively though. I didn't clarity offense only though so I'll agree with Deng.


If Martin disappoints in OKC I'll be the first to admit being wrong. Problem is, if I'm right, I plan to hear either nothing or excuses come my way.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> LA and Miami are the only easy answers. Boston? No.


Yes. Boston has multiple players better than Kevin Martin. Like five or six.



R-Star said:


> Philly? No.


Holiday, Hawes, Bynum and they even have a non-injured clone of Martin in Nick Young. (EDIT: And there's also the chance that Evan Turner takes a step forward now that Iguodala is in Denver.)



R-Star said:


> Indy? Not a chance.


Granger, Hibbert, West, George, and Hill. Not only do they have three better players, they have five.



R-Star said:


> You could argue Jersey.


It's not even an argument. Williams, Johnson and Wallace are head and shoulders better and Lopez is better at the only thing that Martin provides.



R-Star said:


> Chicago? Who's the better third option?


Once they're healthy? (Which I actually specified.) Rose, Boozer, Noah, Deng and Hinrich.



R-Star said:


> You are trying to make Kevin Martin out to be a mid 00's Ricky Davis.


No, he's a fragile-as-glass chucker. He literally provides you with nothing else on a basketball court.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> Yes. Boston has multiple players better than Kevin Martin. Like five or six.
> 
> 
> 
> Holiday, Hawes, Bynum and they even have a non-injured clone of Martin in Nick Young.
> 
> 
> 
> Granger, Hibbert, West, George, and Hill. Not only do they have three better players, they have five.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not even an argument. Williams, Johnson and Wallace are head and shoulders better and Lopez is better at the only thing that Martin provides.
> 
> 
> 
> Once they're healthy? (Which I actually specified.) Rose, Boozer, Noah and Hinrich.
> 
> 
> 
> No, he's a fragile-as-glass chucker. He literally provides you with nothing else on a basketball court.


Philly is laughable. And I'm asking for third options, you're naming 1st and second options to try to inflate your lists. Indy? No. How many Indiana games have you watched? There's a reason we score by committee. We don't have a reliable go to scorer on the team. Not one.

Kirk ****ing Hinrich? Are you kidding me?


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> Philly is laughable. And I'm asking for third options, you're naming 1st and second options to try to inflate your lists.


No, I'm pointing out teams that have three or more better options than Kevin Martin, which is what you demanded after I gave you a "how many centers can I think of off the top of my head would provide OKC with a better third star than Kevin Martin plus any wings off the top of my head that would do the same thing in thirty seconds or less" list.



R-Star said:


> Indy? No. How many Indiana games have you watched? There's a reason we score by committee. We don't have a reliable go to scorer on the team. Not one


It really doesn't matter whether or not Indiana has a #1 scorer _because they have five guys better than Kevin ****ing Martin_.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> No, I'm pointing out teams that have three or more better options than Kevin Martin, which is what you demanded after I gave you a "how many centers can I think of off the top of my head would provide OKC with a better third star than Kevin Martin plus any wings off the top of my head that would do the same thing in thirty seconds or less" list.


Again, no on Indy. No on Philly.


And again, Kirk ****ing Hinrich?


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> No, I'm pointing out teams that have three or more better options than Kevin Martin, which is what you demanded after I gave you a "how many centers can I think of off the top of my head would provide OKC with a better third star than Kevin Martin plus any wings off the top of my head that would do the same thing in thirty seconds or less" list.
> 
> 
> 
> It really doesn't matter whether or not Indiana has a #1 scorer _because they have five guys better than Kevin ****ing Martin_.


No. They don't. Don't presume to school me on a team you never watch.

More valuable than Martin? Sure. George and Hill are both younger and on the upswing. Currently better? No.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> Again, no on Indy. No on Philly.


Yes on Philly. Yes on Indiana, every single one of those guys I listed is better than Kevin Martin.



R-Star said:


> And again, Kirk ****ing Hinrich?


Yes, a combo guard that can handle, pass, score and defend. In other words can do all the things that Martin can't and is good enough at the only thing Martin does do that the difference doesn't matter.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> No. They don't. Don't presume to school me on a team you never watch.
> 
> More valuable than Martin? Sure. George and Hill are both younger and on the upswing. Currently better? No.


Yes, currently better, but even you're claiming that Indiana has three better players, which is an admission that you're wrong.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> Yes on Philly. Yes on Indiana, every single one of those guys I listed is better than Kevin Martin.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, a combo guard that can handle, pass, score and defend. In other words can do all the things that Martin can't and is good enough at the only thing Martin does do that the difference doesn't matter.


Hinrich should make it clear to everyone that you're either losing your mind, throwing a fit, or just plain wrong on this subject.


----------



## MemphisX

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8573213/the-harden-disaster


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> Yes, currently better, but even you're claiming that Indiana has three better players, which is an admission that you're wrong.


No, actually I'm not. Granger and Hibbert are better. I expect Wests numbers to shrink a bit this year with Hibbert taking another step forward, and Mahinmi taking a prevalent role from the bench.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> Hinrich should make it clear to everyone that you're either losing your mind, throwing a fit, or just plain wrong on this subject.


Hinrich is a bench player, you know like Martin's going to be in OKC?


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> Hinrich is a bench player, you know like Martin's going to be in OKC?


So? What the **** are you talking about.


I asked for better third options EH.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> No, actually I'm not. Granger and Hibbert are better. I expect Wests numbers to shrink a bit this year with Hibbert taking another step forward, and Mahinmi taking a prevalent role from the bench.


Who gives a shit whether or not West's numbers shrink? He's still better than Kevin Martin. And by a healthy margin. And he'd be a lot better still with Durant and Westbrook drawing all the defensive attention. As an added bonus he'll probably play 65-70 games this year. Unlike Martin.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> Who gives a shit whether or not West's numbers shrink? He's still better than Kevin Martin. And by a healthy margin. And he'd be a lot better still with Durant and Westbrook drawing all the defensive attention. As an added bonus he'll probably play 65-70 games this year. Unlike Martin.


Now West is the epitome of a healthy player?

And when explaining West its "Durant and Westbrook would....." but with Martin its "back when he was in Sacramento....."


Debate better EH. You're falling apart.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> So? What the **** are you talking about.
> 
> 
> I asked for better third options EH.


Yes, and when I gave you a list of better third options for OKC you threw a fit and demanded lists of teams with better third options and when I gave you that, you shifted the goalposts yet again. As far as anyone with even smidgeon of rationality is concerned if a team has three better players they have a better third option. You seem to be under the impression that there's some position on the floor called "third option" like "point guard" or "power forward". There ain't.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> Yes, and when I gave you a list of better third options for OKC you threw a fit and demanded lists of teams with better third options and when I gave you that, you shifted the goalposts yet again. As far as anyone with even smidgeon of rationality is concerned if a team has three better players they have a better third option. You seem to be under the impression that there's some position on the floor called "third option" like "point guard" or "power forward". There ain't.


Actually EH, third option is pretty simple for anyone not trying to weasel out of an argument to understand.

That's why I mentioned Miami and LA. Bosh and Gasol/Nash. That's pretty clear.

So I asked who has a better third option than OKC, the role Martin is filling for Harden, and you went off on some weird old man tangent where you pretended you either didn't understand, or didn't want to answer the question.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> Now West is the epitome of a healthy player?


He doesn't have to be to be more durable than Martin. (EDIT: The hilarious part here is you slagging a guy that's missed significant time in two seasons out of nine while comparing him to a guy tht's only _played_ significant time in three years out of eight.)



R-Star said:


> And when explaining West its "Durant and Westbrook would....." but with Martin its "back when he was in Sacramento....."


No, with West it's "He's better at the _only_ thing that Kevin Martin can do." Whereas the Sacramento example with Martin was in response to your absurd claim that he would magically cease to be a chucker in OKC. He won't. You may need to take your own advice.a


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> Actually EH, third option is pretty simple for anyone not trying to weasel out of an argument to understand.


I'm not "trying to weasel out of an argument" at all. You demanded a list of players that were better third options, I gave you a bunch that I could think of in 30 seconds that were all astronomically better fits in OKC than Mr. Glass. And when you threw a fit and demanded a list of teams I gave you a list of eastern conference teams with three better players, which led to the absurdity of you claiming that Indiana couldn't qualify because even though they have five better players (even three by your claims) they don't have a better "first option".

Now you, apparently, want a list of shooting guards that will come off other teams' benches whose only NBA skill is chucking up shots that are better at it than Martin, at which point you've moved the goalposts more than college kids celebrating a bowl victory.


----------



## Sliccat

> No, with West it's "He's better at the only thing that Kevin Martin can do."


Is he better at coming off screens? Drawing fouls? Shooting 3's? Scoring is not a single talent, especially when in regards to tactical movements over possessions. And especially when Martin is better at specific offensive skills (shooting) that OKC has more need for.

Your point that West is better than Martin is defensible, but the hyperbole you're using to make it weakens your argument.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> I'm not "trying to weasel out of an argument" at all. You demanded a list of players that were better third options, I gave you a bunch that I could think of in 30 seconds that were all astronomically better fits in OKC than Mr. Glass. And when you threw a fit and demanded a list of teams I gave you a list of eastern conference teams with three better players, which led to the absurdity of you claiming that Indiana couldn't qualify because even though they have five better players (even three by your claims) they don't have a better "first option".
> 
> *Now you, apparently, want a list of shooting guards that will come off other teams' benches whose only NBA skill is chucking up shots that are better at it than Martin, at which point you've moved the goalposts more than college kids celebrating a bowl victory.*


Pardon? Link the posts where I even came close to hinting at anything like that. And no, I didn't ask for a list of players, then switch to teams. I said "Name a team with a better third option outside of Miami and LA." Where exactly that confused you is beyond me. Seems pretty straight forward. As does the post where I explicitly said Granger and Hibbert would be above Martin, and you're claiming I'm saying 3 (even though we're arguing West in multiple posts)......


You're spiraling into some pretty pathetic tactics here EH.


----------



## Luke

Indy, Philly, Chicago, Memphis, Boston, Brooklyn, San Antonio, and Denver all have three guys better than Kevin Martin.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Sliccat said:


> Is he better at coming off screens? Drawing fouls? Shooting 3's? Scoring is not a single talent, especially when in regards to tactical movements over possessions. And especially when Martin is better at specific offensive skills (shooting) that OKC has more need for.


While simultaneously being far worse than West at things that OKC has more need for. And no one _needs_ guys that shoot off screens, you have the relationship backwards.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> While simultaneously being far worse than West at things that OKC has more need for. And no one _needs_ guys that shoot off screens, you have the relationship backwards.


He said coming off screens. Not shoot off. Keep trying to twist peoples posts though.


****ing Koreans eh?


----------



## Hyperion

Teams that have a better 3rd option than Martin at 3rd option for OKC now: 

San Antonio
Dallas (?)
NYK
Denver
LAC
Grizz
Jazz
Nuggets
Wolves (?)

The only problem with these arguments is that Harden was the SIXTH man, not the starting SG. Thabo has been the starting SG for the Thunder and will remain the starting SG for the Thunder. Martin coming off the bench will shred most second units. I don't see the problem.


----------



## R-Star

Hyperion said:


> Teams that have a better 3rd option than Martin at 3rd option for OKC now:
> 
> San Antonio
> Dallas (?)
> NYK
> Denver
> LAC
> Grizz
> Jazz
> Nuggets
> Wolves (?)
> 
> The only problem with these arguments is that Harden was the SIXTH man, not the starting SG. Thabo has been the starting SG for the Thunder and will remain the starting SG for the Thunder. Martin coming off the bench will shred most second units. I don't see the problem.


Harden played starter minutes though. He came off the bench like Manu came off the bench.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Luke said:


> Indy, Philly, Chicago, Memphis, Boston, Brooklyn, San Antonio, and Denver all have three guys better than Kevin Martin.


He'll, the Clippers even have Jamal Crawford, _who exactly fits R-Star's 17th set of requirements to qualify as better_


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> He'll, the Clippers even have Jamal Crawford, _who exactly fits R-Star's 17th set of requirements to qualify as better_


Again, pardon?

Feel free to show where I changed my stance. Not sure how many times I should ask.


Funny thing is, this all started when you posted "If OKC flips him for a real third option"


You then proceeded to just recently say third option isn't real and acted confused.



This is sad or funny. Not sure which.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> He said coming off screens. Not shoot off. Keep trying to twist peoples posts though.
> 
> 
> ****ing Koreans eh?


Are you saying that Sliccat meant that what makes Martin a superior scorer is that he goes around screens without shooting the ball? Or are you implying that Martin is setting the screens? Or do you just not have any idea what you're babbling about?


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> Are you saying that Sliccat meant that what makes Martin a superior scorer is that he goes around screens without shooting the ball? Or are you implying that Martin is setting the screens? Or do you just not have any idea what you're babbling about?


Coming off screens. Something Reggie Miller was known for. Something anyone who watches basketball knows is the skill of a shooter.


Run your mouth more though. Between that and making up shit I said you're doing amazing today.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> You then proceeded to just recently say third option isn't real and acted confused.


The only confused person here is you. Because, as usual, you've accused me of suffering from your delusion. Sort of like when you accused me of claiming that no one would ever trade for Emeka Okafor, only when I went and dug up the actual thread my actual words were that no one was paying $28 million for a pick in the 10-15 range of the draft. Which, according to you, meant that I was wrong, because no one was willing to pay $28 million for a late lottery pick.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> The only confused person here is you. Because, as usual, you've accused me of suffering from your delusion. Sort of like when you accused me of claiming that no one would ever trade for Emeka Okafor, only when I went and dug up the actual thread my actual words were that no one was paying $28 million for a pick in the 10-15 range of the draft. Which, according to you, meant that I was wrong, because no one was willing to pay $28 million for a late lottery pick.


What?


**** this is degrading fast.


----------



## Hyperion

R-Star said:


> Harden played starter minutes though. He came off the bench like Manu came off the bench.


Half of those minutes were against subs though. It's not like a pretend 6th man like Manu was where the starting SG was a joke like Finley's ghost. Thabo is a legit starter in the league.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> Coming off screens. Something Reggie Miller was known for. Something anyone who watches basketball knows is the skill of a shooter.


And what did Miller _do_ off the screen? Moon the crowd? Sing showtunes? Perform penis puppetry? Oh, that's right, he was shooting the ball.

But no team _needs_ guys that shoot off the screen. They'd be just as happy if their scoring options were like Paul Pierce and could create their own shooting space, which is why I said he had the relationship backwards. Boston didn't _need_ Ray Allen because he could shoot off screens, they needed him because he could shoot. The screen was just a device to spring him free.


----------



## R-Star

Hyperion said:


> Half of those minutes were against subs though. It's not like a pretend 6th man like Manu was where the starting SG was a joke like Finley's ghost. Thabo is a legit starter in the league.


True enough.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> And what did Miller _do_ off the screen? Moon the crowd? Sing showtunes? Perform penis puppetry? Oh, that's right, he was shooting the ball.
> 
> But no team _needs_ guys that shoot off the screen. They'd be just as happy if their scoring options were like Paul Pierce and could create their own shooting space, which is why I said he had the relationship backwards. Boston didn't _need_ Ray Allen because he could shoot off screens, they needed him because he could shoot. The screen was just a device to spring him free.


I'm honestly not even going to ****ing waste my time anymore.


I'm done work for the day shortly, enjoy your witty retort.


----------



## R-Star

If you're talking about a shooter and say "coming off screens" its pretty ****ing clear what the guy means.


But nope. Just keep arguing.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> He said coming off screens. Not shoot off. Keep trying to twist peoples posts though.
> 
> 
> ****ing Koreans eh?





R-Star said:


> If you're talking about a shooter and say "coming off screens" its pretty ****ing clear what the guy means.


Yep, that R-star, he's the model of consistency and never shifts the goalposts or says stupid shit when drunk.


----------



## hobojoe

For what it's worth, I don't think Kevin Martin is a poor third option for the Thunder. He flails, he flops, he's awkward but at the end of the day he can score and gets the job done. He is what he is. What I took offense with earlier in the thread was this notion that he's a decent rebounding, play making, defender and "all-around" swing man. That's simply not the case, if you're going to compare his raw assist numbers with guys who play 20 minutes a night and/or have mid-teens usage rates, sure he'll look comparable. The guy is not a play maker (which doesn't mean he's throwing the ball into the stands every other trip), he doesn't defend and he doesn't rebound. Nobody really cares about rebounding from a 2 guard anyway, but don't pretend he is something he isn't. That's all I'm saying, the guy is a scorer. An unorthodox, but effective scorer. Don't make him out to be anything else.


----------



## Diable

I regret coming back into this thread. I feel as though someone owes me some braincells that I might need when my arteries start hardening.


----------



## rocketeer

how did this argument go on so long? rstar said nothing about kevin martin being an awesome player. but he is a great scorer. when healthy, he's on of the top non elite scorers in the league. he doesn't do anything else well but he scores the ball well. there aren't 5 teams in the league that will have a better 3rd option scorer than martin. better 3rd player, sure. better 3rd option scorer, nope. pretty simple distinction.


----------



## hobojoe

rocketeer said:


> how did this argument go on so long? rstar said nothing about kevin martin being an awesome player. but he is a great scorer. when healthy, he's on of the top non elite scorers in the league. he doesn't do anything else well but he scores the ball well. there aren't 5 teams in the league that will have a better 3rd option scorer than martin. *better 3rd player, sure. better 3rd option scorer, nope. pretty simple distinction.*


People started claiming he was more than just a scorer. But yea, that distinction you made at the end of your post is very true and probably could've saved this thread about 50 posts if it had been said yesterday.


----------



## e-monk

R-Star said:


> Actually EH, third option is pretty simple for anyone not trying to weasel out of an argument to understand.
> 
> That's why I mentioned Miami and LA. Bosh and Gasol/Nash. That's pretty clear.
> 
> *So I asked who has a better third option than OKC, the role Martin is filling for Harden*, and you went off on some weird old man tangent where you pretended you either didn't understand, or didn't want to answer the question.


I think this is where you steered off the road (because Im more or less with you on the reaction to this trade otherwise) 

you know who has a better 3rd player than Kevin Martin? OKC, the guy's name is Ibaka and he's a fierce defensive presence (lead the league in blocks, all nba 1st team) and he's a starter

the role Martin is filling for OKC and will do so admirably will be scoring punch off bench


----------



## e-monk

rocketeer said:


> how did this argument go on so long? rstar said nothing about kevin martin being an awesome player. but he is a great scorer. when healthy, he's on of the top non elite scorers in the league. he doesn't do anything else well but he scores the ball well. there aren't 5 teams in the league that will have a better 3rd option scorer than martin. better 3rd player, sure. better 3rd option scorer, nope. pretty simple distinction.


he was more generalist at the beginning and really didnt refine/clarify his position until later on


----------



## R-Star

e-monk said:


> I think this is where you steered off the road (because Im more or less with you on the reaction to this trade otherwise)
> 
> you know who has a better 3rd player than Kevin Martin? OKC, the guy's name is Ibaka and he's a fierce defensive presence (lead the league in blocks, all nba 1st team) and he's a starter
> 
> *the role Martin is filling for OKC and will do so admirably will be scoring punch off bench*


Just like Harden did....... who was OKC's third option.


Not saying Ibaka couldn't steal that role though. I'm hoping he takes a bigger role on offense this year.


----------



## R-Star

hobojoe said:


> People started claiming he was more than just a scorer. But yea, that distinction you made at the end of your post is very true and probably could've saved this thread about 50 posts if it had been said yesterday.


I don't think anyone did. Calling him an average rebounder and average with the ball isn't exactly patting the guy on the back.


----------



## kbdullah

Harden just signed a 5-year, $80 Million dollar extension according to multiple outlets.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8577246/james-harden-houston-rockets-agree-five-year-80-million-contract-sources


----------



## NOFX22

kbdullah said:


> Harden just signed a 5-year, $80 Million dollar extension according to multiple outlets.
> 
> http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8577246/james-harden-houston-rockets-agree-five-year-80-million-contract-sources


Well I guess I was off by ten million lol


----------



## RollWithEm

These shooting charts that Grantland did are super informative:


----------



## RollWithEm

KMart is a dynamite midrange shooter, but he simply doesn't finish at the basket like Harden.


----------



## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> KMart is a dynamite midrange shooter, but he simply doesn't finish at the basket like Harden.


Not many do. Hes top tier when it comes to that.


----------



## RollWithEm

Harden pretends the midrange just doesn't exist.


----------



## E.H. Munro

RollWithEm said:


> Harden pretends the midrange just doesn't exist.


Why the hell would you want it to? It's the least efficient shot in basketball. It's one thing for your 4/5 to be taking them, because at the least that takes a defender out of the paint. But your guards? You would prefer that everything be from behind the arc or at the net.


----------



## RollWithEm

E.H. Munro said:


> Why the hell would you want it to? It's the least efficient shot in basketball. It's one thing for your 4/5 to be taking them, because at the least that takes a defender out of the paint. But your guards? You would prefer that everything be from behind the arc or at the net.


In theory, your're right, but I am partial to those shots because that's the extent of my personal range.


----------



## Laker Freak

It also might be a little unfair to compare Martin's worst season of his career to Harden's best.


----------



## R-Star

.....I underrated Hardens passing ability


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

Welp...


----------



## Hyperion

...and Harden just took a giant dump on any nay sayers to his game.


----------



## R-Star

Hyperion said:


> ...and Harden just took a giant dump on any nay sayers to his game.


I'm not letting one game define this, just like I wouldn't have come in after 1 bad game and say "I told you so! I told you so!"


I think he's going to put up some solid stats, but I don't see Houston going anywhere. If he dominates the ball like he did tonight every game, they are going to have some terrible games when he has off nights.


Guess the next step is to see how Martin plays for OKC coming off the bench. I still think they won't miss a beat. It's pretty clear Harden was being held back there.


----------



## Hyperion

I agree. They were holding Harden back and he's a better player than Martin.Martin may just be enough punch for the thunder not miss much. Lin is also a phenomenal pg.


----------



## Dee-Zy

Harden was flat out DA MAN tonight. I always liked the guy and loved his game but never thought that he could pass like that.

Harden might be more of a #1 option than most people think. I'm not saying that he can win a chip as a #1 but after a game like that, woah. I look forward to see more games from him, if he keeps it up, he can be in the top 5 SG conversation quite easily, if not top 3 SG.

Rockets are actually quite fun to watch and I look forward to them getting some chemistry, it was awkward to see them play, a lot of sloppy ball, especially at the beginning but their style of play will be fun to watch.

Lin, Harden, Cook, Douglas are quite exciting wings to watch play. The team might gel quicker than we think too, Lin-Douglas and Harden-Cook have already played together.


----------



## Jace

Douglas is terrible.


----------



## Dee-Zy

****, I mistaken him for Shumpert. He was exciting, Douglas was ok with the Knicks, especially during the Linsanity period.


----------



## seifer0406

I think this is what Ginobili could've been had he played on a bad team.


----------



## seifer0406

Dee-Zy said:


> ****, I mistaken him for Shumpert. He was exciting, Douglas was ok with the Knicks, especially during the Linsanity period.


what are you talking about? Douglas didn't play during the Jeremy Lin days.


----------



## Dee-Zy

What the **** AM I talking about?

Nevermind what I said.


----------



## bball2223

I would've rather had Spike Lee running point than Toney Douglas when he was in NY, dude is garbage.


----------



## bball2223

Harden looked good last night, the 12 assists were a surprise. Keep in mind it is Detroit, who still sucks, but that kind of performance is impressive regardless of who it is against.

Houston is exciting to watch with Harden/Lin/Parsons, but they aren't a playoff team out West.


----------



## Dee-Zy

I think they might sneak in a 7th or 8th seed.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Hyperion said:


> I agree. They were holding Harden back and he's a better player than Martin.Martin may just be enough punch for the thunder not miss much. * Lin is also a phenomenal pg.*


Biggest overrating of someone I have ever seen in my life.


----------



## ChrisWoj

XxIrvingxX said:


> Biggest overrating of someone I have ever seen in my life.


See: every NBA exec, pre 2003 draft - Darko Milicic.


----------



## Bogg

Lin is an adequate starting point guard, especially playing next to a high-level swingman who doesn't need a phenomenal facilitator running the show, and is about properly paid.


----------



## Diable

Lin is a very good P&R player. He needs to take better care of the ball, but he can obviously be effective if you use him correctly.


----------



## Headliner

Still don't see Houston going far in the post season but I'm glad Harden is balling hard. Maybe this was the best move for him after all. He gets a chance to be in a role he's most comfortable at. Lin & Harden is a nice backcourt. Lin needs to do one of those kid activities of keeping an egg for weeks without it breaking. Maybe it will help him turn the ball over less.


----------



## Hyperion

XxIrvingxX said:


> Biggest overrating of someone I have ever seen in my life.


Did you watch the game and any of his games last year or just look at the boxscore/watch ESPN highlights? If you watched the game, he controlled the tempo pretty damn well even with Harden playing like a maniac. He'll be regarded as a top PG in the league by the end of this season.

.... a +/- of +23 is pretty damn phenomenal in a non-blowout.


----------



## doctordrizzay

Lin was pretty impressive, had foul trouble. But when he was on the court Detroit couldn't stop Houston.


----------



## Jace

Amazes me that people who are avid enough basketball fans to post on a messageboard still value single-game +/-.

Let's hold off on the top PG stuff, for now. There are a ton of very good PGs in the league. He'll have to play very well to be top 15.


----------



## Hyperion

Like he did last year, but that's not enough?


----------



## Bogg

Hyperion said:


> Like he did last year, but that's not enough?


Well, no, playing well for a fraction of a season isn't enough to get you into the top-10 for your position. It's enough to get you an opportunity to keep doing what you were doing, but that's about it. Aaron Brooks, Goran Dragic, Kyle Lowry, and Jeremy Lin all have a lot left to prove.


----------



## Luke

If by phenomenal you mean slightly worse than Mike Conely then sure I guess.


----------



## Dee-Zy

Top 15?

Who are the top 14 PGs a head of him? I'm curious to know.


----------



## Jace

You serious? I'm too lazy to prove right now that Lin isn't a top 15 PG. Anyone else wanna take this one?


----------



## stl775

Lin is 18th out of thirty. 



ATLANTA: No 
BOSTON: Rondo 
BROOKLYN: Williams
CHARLOTTE: NO 
CHICAGO: ROSE (NOT SURE IF HE COUNTS BECAUSE OF INJURY)
CLEVELAND: Irving 
DALLAS: NO (Not the most impressive roster in my opinion)
DENVER: LAWSON
DETROIT: Stuckey 
GOLDEN ST: NO (Lin is better than Jack)
INDIANA: HILL 
LA CLIPPERS: PAUL 
LA LAKERS: NASH 
MEMPHIS: CONLEY (Tough call but I’ll go with Conley)
MIAMI: NO 
MILWAUKEE: ELIIS/JENNINGS (Is Ellis the SG?)
MINNESOTA: RUBIO 
NEW ORLEANS: NO
NEW YORK KNICKS: NO (Why do the Knicks have 17 PGS)
OKC: WESTBROOK (Maynor is not bad off the bench either)
ORLANDO: NELSON (He is the team’s best player probley maybe Affalo between Nelson and Lin could go either way.)
PHILADELPHIA: NO
PHOENIX: NO
PORTLAND: LILLARD (Possible rookie of the year. MAYBE)
SACREMENTO: EVANS (Good roster on the Kings I like what they are building too bad they are skipping town soon.)
SAN ANTONIO: PARKER 
TORONTO: NO
UTAH: NO
WASHINGTON: WALL (CURRENT INJURY)


----------



## stl775

Note: I can't count Lillard as better yet hes only played one game.


----------



## kbdullah

He's on par w/ Dragic in Phoenix. 

Evans is not a point guard. Heck he was getting minutes at SF last year.
Stuckey is a shooting guard.
Jameer isn't better.
George Hill isn't better.
Rubio eh. Also has turnover issues plus has shooting issues. I'll take Lin.

Curry is in Golden State and is better.
Lowry is in Toronto and is better.

That puts him around 15-16 by my count.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Hyperion said:


> Did you watch the game and any of his games last year or just look at the boxscore/watch ESPN highlights? If you watched the game, he controlled the tempo pretty damn well even with Harden playing like a maniac. He'll be regarded as a top PG in the league by the end of this season.
> 
> .... a +/- of +23 is pretty damn phenomenal in a non-blowout.


You mean the games were he was completely irrelevant when Carmelo and Amare were back? Come on now. Lin is pretty good, I'll give him that much, but phenomenal? There's overrating, and then there's what you said. 

Until he can prove that he can average 20 per game and around 10 per game WITHOUT turning the ball over 4 times per game, then I'll consider him phe...actually no that still wouldn't do it, and I highly doubt he's going to do that this season.


----------



## Wade County

Someone said they would take Lin over Rubio?

Dayum


----------



## Jace

I thought the linsanity was cured enough to make reasonable assessments, but I suppose not.


----------



## Hyperion

XxIrvingxX said:


> You mean the games were he was completely irrelevant when Carmelo and Amare were back? Come on now. Lin is pretty good, I'll give him that much, but phenomenal? There's overrating, and then there's what you said.
> 
> Until he can prove that he can average 20 per game and around 10 per game WITHOUT turning the ball over 4 times per game, then I'll consider him phe...actually no that still wouldn't do it, and I highly doubt he's going to do that this season.


What about 12ppg 12apg and 3.5TO? Would that do it?
Or how about 21ppg 9apg and 4TO? 23.6ppg 5.5apg and 3.5TO?


----------



## Jace

What is this, what are you doing?


----------



## Headliner

I can see Harden playing with a chip on his shoulder all season. He's probably going to try & drop 50 against OKC.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Headliner said:


> I can see Harden playing with a chip on his shoulder all season. He's probably going to try & drop 50 against OKC.


Harden's season this year will be the biggest FU season since Van Exel in 99. That year when Nick came back to the forum for the first time he dropped a 40-10-10 triple double on the Lakers... and I was rooting him on all along.


----------



## Dre

I don't know why he'd have a chip on his shoulder...it's not like they didn't want him they just couldn't afford the luxury tax and told his ass that. They gave him the most they felt they could've, gave him time to make a decision, he declined and that's that...just business. 

But what messed two teams up is the Kendrick Perkins thing. The Thunder don't need him and the Celtics needed him that year they traded him. If they hadn't traded for Perkins they could've afforded Harden and if the Celtics had Perkins that year who knows how far they could've gone.


----------



## Headliner

I'm viewing it from the standpoint of him wanting to prove that he's an elite player in the league. An opportunity he might feel like he wasn't given during his time at OKC. Playing with a chip on your shoulder isn't a bad thing all the time. It can be for good reasons.


----------



## Dre

I could see that


----------



## E.H. Munro

Dre said:


> I don't know why he'd have a chip on his shoulder...it's not like they didn't want him they just couldn't afford the luxury tax and told his ass that. They gave him the most they felt they could've, gave him time to make a decision, he declined and that's that...just business.
> 
> But what messed two teams up is the Kendrick Perkins thing. The Thunder don't need him and the Celtics needed him that year they traded him. If they hadn't traded for Perkins they could've afforded Harden and if the Celtics had Perkins that year who knows how far they could've gone.


The Celtics didn't actually need him two years ago as he was injured and not playing for them. They also had a glaring need for a forward to spell Pierce and/or a guard to replace Ray in the starting lineup. While all Celtics fans wished that they could have gotten the Ray replacement, Boston had to settle for the guy to spell Pierce plus a future first.


----------



## Dre

E.H. Munro said:


> The Celtics didn't actually need him two years ago as he was injured and not playing for them. They also had a glaring need for a forward to spell Pierce and/or a guard to replace Ray in the starting lineup. While all Celtics fans wished that they could have gotten the Ray replacement, Boston had to settle for the guy to spell Pierce plus a future first.


:stephena:

They had just lost in the finals in part because of Perkins' absence, then they gambled on Shaq staying healthy and traded Perkins. They ultimately lost on the gamble because Shaq wasn't healthy and they were then at a disadvantage on the boards and with interior defense overall. That was the narrative at the time, don't rewrite history...don't you say they didn't need him...they could've waited for him to come back come playoff time. If Shaq had stayed healthy his loss would've probably been alleviated but everyone was saying it was a hell of a gamble at the time.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Dre said:


> I don't know why he'd have a chip on his shoulder...it's not like they didn't want him they just couldn't afford the luxury tax and told his ass that. They gave him the most they felt they could've, gave him time to make a decision, he declined and that's that...just business.
> 
> But what messed two teams up is the Kendrick Perkins thing. The Thunder don't need him and the Celtics needed him that year they traded him. If they hadn't traded for Perkins they could've afforded Harden and if the Celtics had Perkins that year who knows how far they could've gone.


He can't help but feel he's slighted. Even if the Thunder can't afford him, it's like they didn't make any effort. Could of not paid Ibaka like an all-star, could of tried to Dump Perkins, etc. Not saying it's logical but Harden is human. It's like if you get a job offer from a competing company and take it to your employer to match. If they say no, they can only afford what they are currently giving you you'll still want to stick it to them.

BTW You missed the part earlier in this thread when I adressed your statements in June that Harden was poised to get "near max" level money before he bombed in the finals, and I said GM's weren't as fickle as fans, in which case you told me I was wrong and doubted I would be bumping the thread.

Archivist out.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Dre said:


> :stephena:
> 
> They had just lost in the finals in part because of Perkins' absence, then they gambled on Shaq staying healthy and traded Perkins. They ultimately lost on the gamble because Shaq wasn't healthy and they were then at a disadvantage on the boards and with interior defense overall. That was the narrative at the time, don't rewrite history...don't you say they didn't need him...they could've waited for him to come back come playoff time. If Shaq had stayed healthy his loss would've probably been alleviated but everyone was saying it was a hell of a gamble at the time.


No, BOTH Shaq and Perkins were injured at the time of the trade. People tend to forget that Boston's starting center at the time of the trade was Glen Davis. All 6'7" of him. There were no guarantees that either Perkins or Shaq would be returning that year, and Boston's 4/5 rotation was Garnett, Davis, Semih Erden, and all 6'6" of Luke Harangody. They had no backups at the 2/3 and were running Pierce & Allen into the ground. 

Their options were to reach the playoffs with Pierce & Allen done from exhaustion in the hope that Kendrick Perkins would miraculously get healthy and suddenly more athletic than he'd ever been so that they could defend the newly minted Heat squad (which didn't exist in 2010) or trade their injured center for a guy that could provide them minutes at the 5, a swing forward to play the 3/4 and a future first. They really wanted Harden, but OKC wouldn't give him. OKC was gambling that Perkins would get healthy by the playoffs so that they could get by LA. It didn't work out for them. Boston, on the other hand, had to worry about Chicago & Miami, and Perkins was never the margin of victory for them, as he was injured. And it was that injury that depressed his value.


----------



## Dre

E.H. Munro said:


> No, BOTH Shaq and Perkins were injured at the time of the trade. People tend to forget that Boston's starting center at the time of the trade was Glen Davis. All 6'7" of him. There were no guarantees that either Perkins or Shaq would be returning that year,


Not true, they were both expected to come back that season. That's why Ainge felt comfortable trading Perkins because he gambled on Shaq



> C's president of basketball operations Danny Ainge says he's encouraged by what he sees from the 38-year-old center. "Shaq looks good," Ainge said Wednesday. "My concerns are lessening each day. *I've seen him work out the last two days, and I'm very encouraged by what I've seen from Shaq. I'm not worried. I think Shaq will be there, and same thing with Jermaine [O'Neal]." *
> 
> Both injured O'Neals have been out for a lengthy period of time -- Shaquille since Feb. 1 with the Achilles, and Jermaine since Jan. 10 with a sore left knee.
> 
> Ainge is confident both will return at full strength, but he's not ready to share the specifics on when. "I'm not sure," Ainge said. "I don't have any timeframes, but I'm not concerned about that, really, whether they come back tonight or a week or two weeks from now. I'm just concerned with what they'll be as the season ends. I'm very optimistic about Shaq and Jermaine both."
> 
> Read more at: http://www.nesn.com/2011/03/danny-a...g-centers-shaquille-oneal-jermaine-oneal.html





> *Me: You're banking on Shaq being Shaq in the springtime (O'Neal has not played in a game since Feb. 1).
> 
> Ainge: "He's better than he was in the fall."*
> 
> Me: "What about cutting the heart out of your team? What would it have been like if DJ had been taken away in the middle of a season?"
> 
> Ainge: "DJ was a star. Nobody put more time and effort into helping Perk become a better player and a better man than me. I spent so much time with Perk. I feel like I raised him in the NBA. I'm a big fan of Kendrick Perkins. *I just think we have every bit as good a team now, and it helps us for the future. And the numbers back that up. Now if Shaq and Jermaine [O'Neal] can't play we could be in trouble.* But Perk's out for three weeks right now. He's coming off an ACL tear and he's got a sprained MCL on the other knee, so the health of all of those players is in question. I'm a Perk fan. Love him as a player. But I think he's a player that is not irreplaceable. Time will tell."
> 
> Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/dan_shaughnessy/03/07/ainge/index.html#ixzz2B6IsNa92


Now go ahead and say the words out of the horses mouth are wrong.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Dre said:


> Not true, they were both expected to come back that season. That's why Ainge felt comfortable trading Perkins because he gambled on Shaq


You apparently missed the "_Perk's out for three weeks right now. He's coming off an ACL tear and he's got a sprained MCL on the other knee, so the health of all of those players is in question_." in that second pull. And that was point, _everyone_ playing the center spot for Boston was injured at the time of the trade.

And if you recall (and you obviously don't) they said _exactly_ the same thing about Garnett in '09, when they not only knew that he wouldn't be able to play, but knew that they'd been the ones that broke him. Shaq also stated later that he himself told Boston that the achilles injury was likely to keep him out. Their options were to go into the playoffs with only Garnett and Davis as guarantees at the 4/5 and only Pierce & Allen at the 2/3, _while facing a matchup with a team starting LBJ/Wade_. They needed reinforcements on the wing and and across the front line.


----------



## Dre

:cosby: Damn Ehmunro


----------



## E.H. Munro

Dude, you just posted a quote with a statement from Ainge stating that Perkins was out with a knee injury as proof that Perkins wasn't injured. We ****ing went through this during the 2011 playoffs, when you started denying this reality. Perkins was out with a knee injury at the time of the trade (and to his "good" knee at that), and that was part of why they did it. They desperately needed help at the 3/4/5. Their first request was for Harden to go with Krstic, they settled for Green and a Clippers #1 instead. Do Celtics fans wish they'd got Harden? Yes. But Presti refused to deal him. What should they have done? Punt the season and go immediately into rebuilding mode?


----------



## Dre

E.H. Munro said:


> Dude, you just posted a quote with a statement from Ainge stating that Perkins was out with a knee injury as proof that Perkins wasn't injured. We ****ing went through this during the 2011 playoffs, when you started denying this reality. Perkins was out with a knee injury at the time of the trade (and to his "good" knee at that), and that was part of why they did it. They desperately needed help at the 3/4/5. Their first request was for Harden to go with Krstic, they settled for Green and a Clippers #1 instead. Do Celtics fans wish they'd got Harden? Yes. But Presti refused to deal him. What should they have done? Punt the season and go immediately into rebuilding mode?


No, my point in posting that was as proof that Ainge and the Celtics were expecting him back that season and you know that. 

Just give it the **** up for once dude, you misremembered or something. It happens.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Dude, SHAQ himself stated that he told the Celtics that he probably wasn't coming back. Why the **** do you think they traded for Nenad Krstic? He wasn't necessary to make the numbers work (Boston had to throw in Nate Robinson to make the Krstic part of the deal work). He was just _necessary_ because they were starting Glen Davis. Did they hope Shaq could get back? I'm sure they did. Were they hoping that Jermaine could give them something? I'm sure they did. But in February of 2011 _everyone_ was out injured. And they had no backup for Pierce or Allen. So, _again_, what were they supposed to do? Punt the season and go into rebuilding mode?


----------



## Dre

you right


----------



## LA68

Its a new season and people argue about Nenad Krstic ?

Its 2012, there is plenty to argue about "this" season with "players that matter" .


----------



## Dre

Jamel Irief said:


> BTW You missed the part earlier in this thread when I adressed your statements in June that Harden was poised to get "near max" level money before he bombed in the finals, and I said GM's weren't as fickle as fans, in which case you told me I was wrong and doubted I would be bumping the thread.
> 
> Archivist out.


Boy you happy as shit. I already figured somewhere in this thread you had mentioned that. Difference between me and you is I don't really care. I know I wouldn't have given him 16M a year before a game was played regardless. 

FWIW though Houston isn't being "not fickle" here they're being desperate. They been looking for a star since Yao retired and finally hopped on someone who will probably be a star but could honestly just as easily be an Allan Houston level player.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Dre said:


> Boy you happy as shit. I already figured somewhere in this thread you had mentioned that. Difference between me and you is I don't really care. I know I wouldn't have given him 16M a year before a game was played regardless.
> 
> FWIW though Houston isn't being "not fickle" here they're being desperate. They been looking for a star since Yao retired and finally hopped on someone who will probably be a star but could honestly just as easily be an Allan Houston level player.


Irrelevant. It was obvious to me teams would offer harden money back then because there are at least ten teams desperate for a star. And the thunder offered harden "near max" money before Houston did. You were wrong.

Fwiw you do care too.


----------



## Dre

You're right father, I do care so very much


----------



## ChrisWoj

Dre said:


> Boy you happy as shit. I already figured somewhere in this thread you had mentioned that. Difference between me and you is I don't really care. I know I wouldn't have given him 16M a year before a game was played regardless.
> 
> FWIW though Houston isn't being "not fickle" here they're being desperate. They been looking for a star since Yao retired and finally hopped on someone who will probably be a star but could honestly just as easily be an Allan Houston level player.


You know who else could be an Allen Houston? Lebron James. Kevin Durant. Derrick Rose (who actually might...). And so on. Houston's contract was a bust because he got hurt. Mind you - no he would never have been a James/Durant/Rose - but had he not been hurt, his contract would have been about the right value.

I'm still pissed at his douchebag agent.


----------



## Dre

It seems like you're just trying to get over on that specific Allan Houston reference when you know what I'm trying to say and most likely agree.

Allan Houston was never going to be a top tier player, but was paid close to it by NY because he was on that thin line between first and second tier at one point.


----------



## ChrisWoj

Dre said:


> It seems like you're just trying to get over on that specific Allan Houston reference when you know what I'm trying to say and most likely agree.
> 
> Allan Houston was never going to be a top tier player, but was paid close to it by NY because he was on that thin line between first and second tier at one point.


I'm trying to get over the point that it was a poor reference. I get what you're trying to say - but I think that Allan Houston was a bad example to choose because injuries are what derailed a promising scorer.


----------



## R-Star

**** James Harden.


----------



## Dre

ChrisWoj said:


> I'm trying to get over the point that it was a poor reference. I get what you're trying to say - but I think that Allan Houston was a bad example to choose because injuries are what derailed a promising scorer.


To be honest I was like 12 when all that shit was going on and I don't even remember that. I was just talking about a fairly one dimensional wing who had good numbers but didn't stack up.


----------



## MemphisX

All Praise The Beard!!!?


----------



## Dre

I don't want to come off like a James Harden hater based on the past couple months either because I was a huge fan of his game all the way back to Arizona State moreso than a lot of people, no lie. I just get extremely disappointed at a guy when he doesn't show up come Spring....I talked the same shit about LeBron last year and he proved me wrong.

That said through a couple games Harden's showing his ass, let's see how that stretches out over a whole season.


----------



## MemphisX

To be fair though, Harden was pretty good until they met Miami. At 23, I'll give him a pass and it will likely be at least 2-3 seasons before he is even close to that stage again. Not really a Harden fan but I am looking forward to watching him. So few prime SGs in the league right now. Just wish he had went out East.


----------



## rocketeer

Dre said:


> I don't want to come off like a James Harden hater based on the past couple months either because I was a huge fan of his game all the way back to Arizona State moreso than a lot of people, no lie. I just get extremely disappointed at a guy when he doesn't show up come Spring....I talked the same shit about LeBron last year and he proved me wrong.


why does the "spring" only count the finals? harden had played pretty well in the playoffs up until that point.


----------



## Dre

Damn y'all are nitpicking out here. If he played well until the finals you can answer your question about what I meant yourself


----------



## Bogg

E.H. Munro said:


> OKC was gambling that Perkins would get healthy by the playoffs so that they could get by LA. It didn't work out for them.


This part, at least, is incorrect. Having Perk to get past the Lakers worked just fine last spring. Additionally, Perk actually played pretty solid post defense in the 2011 playoffs, but they didn't count on Dirk catching fire and eliminating the Lakers(and everyone else, as it turned out). However, Perk's a DH of sorts, only really good for slowing down post-up threats. That was all well and good when the Finals were going through Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, Kevin Garnett, and Dwight Howard, but it's also why he had little positive impact against Dirk's Mavs or last year's Heat. Dwight switching conferences is likely the exact reason OKC didn't amnesty him.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Bogg said:


> This part, at least, is incorrect. Having Perk to get past the Lakers worked just fine last spring. Additionally, Perk actually played pretty solid post defense in the 2011 playoffs, but they didn't count on Dirk catching fire and eliminating the Lakers(and everyone else, as it turned out). However, Perk's a DH of sorts, only really good for slowing down post-up threats. That was all well and good when the Finals were going through Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, Kevin Garnett, and Dwight Howard, but it's also why he had little positive impact against Dirk's Mavs or last year's Heat. Dwight switching conferences is likely the exact reason OKC didn't amnesty him.


I'm aware of all this. But the trade didn't work out for OKC when it was made and now they're locked into paying huge money for a guy they only need for a handful of games in any given season. Boston is essentially paying less than half that for two guys to fill that role.


----------



## R-Star

We're doing the EH hates Perkins argument again?


Really?


Great.....


----------



## E.H. Munro

I hate Perkins? It's news to me.


----------



## R-Star

Cool.


----------



## Bogg

E.H. Munro said:


> I'm aware of all this. But the trade didn't work out for OKC when it was made and now they're locked into paying huge money for a guy they only need for a handful of games in any given season. Boston is essentially paying less than half that for two guys to fill that role.


No, it worked out fine the last two seasons for what it was. The Thunder weren't getting past the 2011 Mavs regardless of whether they made the trade or not, and likely wouldn't have gotten through the Grizzlies with a Green-Krstic frontcourt. The problems they had that led to them losing in the Finals last year weren't anything that you'd expect Perkins to solve. If Presti badly wanted to get rid of him he had a few avenues to do so, but the handful of games that they actually need Perk going forward are known as "The 2013-2015 Western Conference Finals". Collins and Darko aren't making a difference against the Lakers.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Honestly I hate the crappy Collins twin that Boston signed. But at least he's appropriately priced. Post knee injuries Perkins is the same sort of player. But making $9 million a year.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Bogg said:


> The Thunder weren't getting past the 2011 Mavs regardless of whether they made the trade or not.


But that's the point. They made the trade specifically to get past LA and gave Perkins a contract that cost them Harden. It's been a real loser of a deal for them because, post knee injuries, Perkins isn't of much use against perimeter oriented teams. So they need him for less than 20 games a year. Boston got Darko and a crappy Collins twin for $2-$3 million a year to fill the same role.


----------



## Bogg

OKC decided that keeping Perkins, in order to deal with the Lakers' frontcourt, and cashing out on Harden for other perimeter scorers was their best course of action. Now, you can feel like they made the wrong decision, but they're not sitting around lamenting the Perkins trade and the extension they gave him, because they could shed his salary any time they want. As I said, those handful of games they need him in are against their primary conference competition - it's the exact same reason that Boston just gave Jeff Green $40 million and let Ray Allen walk. Saying they need him for less than 20 games a year brushes off the fact that they badly need him in the Conference Finals.


----------



## MemphisX

NBA took a week to reel in Harden?


----------



## R-Star

MemphisX said:


> NBA took a week to reel in Harden?


I think we all saw it coming. He'll still have nights where he goes off, but he is not a top scorer in this league.


----------



## Bogg

He might make a nice sidekick. Stick him on a team with Dwight Howard and a third guy who's able to take over on offense for stretches as well(like the '08 C's) and you might have a legitimate contender.


----------



## RollWithEm

Don't overreact to outlier games. Of course he went off against Rodney Stuckey/Kyle Singler and Devin Harris/Kyle Korver. Of course he was less effective against Nic Batum and Andre Iguodala. His median production will likely be around what his per 36 minutes averages are now - 26/5/5 with high turnovers and low 3P%. Those are all-star on a middle-of-the-pack team numbers.


----------



## kbdullah

Was at the Rockets / Nuggets game yesterday, noticed a couple things.

Lin looks out of place with Harden controlling the ball now.

Harden doesn't blow by people outright - he's dependent on picking up his momentum to get the speed to get by defenders. Also overly reliant on that euro step and flail manuever.

If Asik had just a little more offensive wherewithall he'd be a 15/15 guy. But he misses easy putbacks and turns the ball over on plays that look like surefire buckets.


----------



## R-Star

kbdullah said:


> Was at the Rockets / Nuggets game yesterday, noticed a couple things.
> 
> Lin looks out of place with Harden controlling the ball now.
> 
> Harden doesn't blow by people outright - he's dependent on picking up his momentum to get the speed to get by defenders. Also overly reliant on that euro step and flail manuever.
> 
> If Asik had just a little more offensive wherewithall he'd be a 15/15 guy. But he misses easy putbacks and turns the ball over on plays that look like surefire buckets.


Lin does look out of place, but it's not his fault. Harden dominates the ball.


----------



## RollWithEm

kbdullah said:


> If Asik had just a little more offensive wherewithall he'd be a 15/15 guy. But he misses easy putbacks and turns the ball over on plays that look like surefire buckets.


This is 100% true. He has absolutely no touch around the basket. He had one particularly easy, open tip-in opportunity that he managed to airball on the opposite side of the rim. Ugly.


----------



## Dee-Zy

It's normal that Lin and Harden have not gelled yet.

I'd be more concerned if it is still like this in march.


----------



## Luke

R-Star said:


> Lin does look out of place, but it's not his fault. Harden dominates the ball.


Why wouldn't the better guard handle the ball more though?


----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> Why wouldn't the better guard handle the ball more though?


Because Lin is the point guard, and once every team in the NBA figures out Hardens a ball hog it will hamper Houstons offense.

I'm sure Harden taking half the teams shots and controlling the ball 75% of the time will get old for the rest of the players in Houston pretty quick.


----------



## Luke

R-Star said:


> Because Lin is the point guard, and once every team in the NBA figures out Hardens a ball hog it will hamper Houstons offense.
> 
> I'm sure Harden taking half the teams shots and controlling the ball 75% of the time will get old for the rest of the players in Houston pretty quick.


It's not like the Rockets have a ton of offensively gifted guys that need the ball though. If they're going to play well it will probably be because their defensive role players stepped up and their back court scores at least forty a game.

So yeah, obviously Harden ball is going to need to chill out, but as of this second I don't think it's hampered Houston at all. If anything his explosion has made them that much more relevent.


----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> It's not like the Rockets have a ton of offensively gifted guys that need the ball though. If they're going to play well it will probably be because their defensive role players stepped up and their back court scores at least forty a game.
> 
> So yeah, obviously Harden ball is going to need to chill out, *but as of this second I don't think it's hampered Houston at all. If anything his explosion has made them that much more relevent.*


Agreed. But as soon as teams figured out "Hey, double Harden and we win because he tries to take the ball every single play." Houston was screwed. Its not like that first game where he got 12 assists is normal for Harden. You double him and there's a good chance you're getting the ball back on a forced shot or a turnover.

If Lin was included more it would at the very least give defenses another offensive weapon to have to worry about. I don't think he's the superstar every Asian basketball fan claimed him to be in the offseason, but I do think he's a talented offensive player who can create offense for himself and others on the court.

Harden needs to quit trying to stick it to OKC. He's reminding me of when Ricky Davis tried to get that triple double by shooting on his own net for the rebound.


----------



## Luke

Thing is I don't think Harden is a selfish player. I think he's a talented player that recognizes that the league hasn't properly scouted him as of now and his team's best chance are him going bananas on an unsuspecting defense. In a month that will no longer be the case and I would assume that he will reel it in and allow more of the responsibility to fall on Lin's somehwhat capable shoulders. Hell, it's something Lin should be familiar with, dominating teams because he wasn't properly scouted.

If Harden is shooting 25 times a game by January then that means there's a problem, but I don't think that will be the case. Nothing about James' OKC tenure leads me to believe that he's a Ricky Davis lite player, but we'll see.


----------



## 36 Karat

R-Star said:


> He's reminding me of when Ricky Davis tried to get that triple double by shooting on his own net for the rebound.







****ing Ricky Davis. Trying to play it off like he earned it.


----------



## R-Star

36 Karat said:


> ****ing Ricky Davis. Trying to play it off like he earned it.


Man, look at how normal Deshawn Stevenson looks in that video. 


How times have changed.


----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> Thing is I don't think Harden is a selfish player. I think he's a talented player that recognizes that the league hasn't properly scouted him as of now and his team's best chance are him going bananas on an unsuspecting defense. In a month that will no longer be the case and I would assume that he will reel it in and allow more of the responsibility to fall on Lin's somehwhat capable shoulders. Hell, it's something Lin should be familiar with, dominating teams because he wasn't properly scouted.
> 
> If Harden is shooting 25 times a game by January then that means there's a problem, but I don't think that will be the case. Nothing about James' OKC tenure leads me to believe that he's a Ricky Davis lite player, but we'll see.


We'll see. I think the drop is shot attempts will be due more to Harden actually realizing he's not Lebron James and he can't score on 2 defenders whenever he feels like it.

Either way, will be interesting to watch. I never expected Harden to come out of the gates as hot as he did, if anything he's making another fun story for the season.


----------



## 36 Karat

Luke said:


> Thing is I don't think Harden is a selfish player. I think he's a talented player that recognizes that the league hasn't properly scouted him as of now and his team's best chance are him going bananas on an unsuspecting defense. In a month that will no longer be the case and I would assume that he will reel it in and allow more of the responsibility to fall on Lin's somehwhat
> capable shoulders.


It cannot be blatantly stated that there are no selfish aspects to Harden's game, after denying OKC's extension (where he'd have been in a position to win, playing a role he was very well settled into) to come to Houston where it was well-understood that he would be their "Numero Uno" guy.

He is talented, otherwise he wouldn't be in the NBA. But it's not like teams "haven't properly scouted him" by now. Teams know his schtick. A freak explosion opening night more reflects (1) hype of the trade, anticipation of Rockets nation and (2) the fact that they were playing the Pistons. The Pistons. And the fact that it was also _their_ first game, so defensively, they weren't exactly what you'd call "settled in".



Luke said:


> Hell, it's something Lin should be familiar with, dominating teams because he wasn't properly scouted.


Lin and "dominant", "dominance", "dominating", or any other derivative of that word cannot, and should not ever be used in the same sentence. Ever.


----------



## R-Star

*Kevin Martin: 19.3 ppg on 51.2% and 61.9% from behind the arc.*

Quietly fitting in to that top tier #3 option like I said he would. Obviously his percentages will go down, but I thought he should get the credit he deserves so far since a lot of people shit on him in this thread.


----------



## Luke

36 Karat said:


> It cannot be blatantly stated that there are no selfish aspects to Harden's game, after denying OKC's extension (where he'd have been in a position to win, playing a role he was very well settled into) to come to Houston where it was well-understood that he would be their "Numero Uno" guy.
> 
> He is talented, otherwise he wouldn't be in the NBA. But it's not like teams "haven't properly scouted him" by now. Teams know his schtick. A freak explosion opening night more reflects (1) hype of the trade, anticipation of Rockets nation and (2) the fact that they were playing the Pistons. The Pistons. And the fact that it was also _their_ first game, so defensively, they weren't exactly what you'd call "settled in".
> 
> 
> 
> Lin and "dominant", "dominance", "dominating", or any other derivative of that word cannot, and should not ever be used in the same sentence. Ever.


Why would you take 48 million when you can make 80 million elsewhere? That's not being selfish, that's just not being an idiot. This is a business and these are real people. And Harden was traded, it's not like he demanded a way out.

What about his 45 point game right after? He wasn't scouted properly as a number one option and he's benefiting from it. 

And I'm the absolute last person on this board that you need to argue about Jeremy Lin, go look at the threads. But he was still dominant for like a week before people figured out how to limit him, that can't be denied. I'm a Lakers' fan, I know.


----------



## rayz789

I dont think harden and lin will work together because both wants to dominate with the ball and since this is harden's team, its hurting lin because when lin first sign with the rockets, he thought this is his team but then the trade happen and harden is now the number 1 option. Lin is known to turn the ball over many times. And harden is a selfish player. Harden is a good passer but he barely pass. Last year ive seen many times when players like durant was open and harden still want to drive in on 3 defenders thinking he's a prime kobe or lebron.


----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> Why would you take 48 million when you can make 80 million elsewhere? That's not being selfish, that's just not being an idiot. This is a business and these are real people. And Harden was traded, it's not like he demanded a way out.
> 
> What about his 45 point game right after? He wasn't scouted properly as a number one option and he's benefiting from it.
> 
> And I'm the absolute last person on this board that you need to argue about Jeremy Lin, go look at the threads. But he was still dominant for like a week before people figured out how to limit him, that can't be denied. I'm a Lakers' fan, I know.


He got 45 because they played a terrible team and he absolutely dominated the ball the whole game. It would have been like if the Pistons had played those mid 00's Laker teams, Kobe would have gone off for 50+.


----------



## R-Star

rayz789 said:


> I dont think harden and lin will work together because both wants to dominate with the ball and since this is harden's team, its hurting lin because when lin first sign with the rockets, he thought this is his team but then the trade happen and harden is now the number 1 option. Lin is known to turn the ball over many times. And harden is a selfish player. Harden is a good passer but he barely pass. Last year ive seen many times when players like durant was open and harden still want to drive in on 3 defenders thinking he's a prime kobe or lebron.


Yep. That's my opinion as well.


----------



## RollWithEm

I think Harden is a top 5 SG and a fringe all-star in the league today, but I would still prefer Allen Iverson at the same age... and that should say something.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Luke said:


> *Why would you take 48 million when you can make 80 million elsewhere? That's not being selfish, that's just not being an idiot.* This is a business and these are real people. And Harden was traded, it's not like he demanded a way out.
> 
> What about his 45 point game right after? He wasn't scouted properly as a number one option and he's benefiting from it.
> 
> And I'm the absolute last person on this board that you need to argue about Jeremy Lin, go look at the threads. But he was still dominant for like a week before people figured out how to limit him, that can't be denied. I'm a Lakers' fan, I know.


You make it sound like 48 million is shit money. That's a lot of money dude. And how would sticking with OKC make him a idiot? Yes because he was in such a bad financial situation before that he needed the extra money really badly right? Give me a break.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

RollWithEm said:


> I think Harden is a top 5 SG and a fringe all-star in the league today, but I would still prefer Allen Iverson at the same age... and that should say something.


Iverson was able to cross Michael Jordan in his rookie year...quite frankly I'd take him over Harden too.


----------



## rayz789

XxIrvingxX said:


> Iverson was able to cross Michael Jordan in his rookie year...quite frankly I'd take him over Harden too.


 YAY!!! Ai did something in nba history and that cross a 33 year old jordan while in that same year rookie ai lead his sixers to only 22 wins.


----------



## kbdullah

Rockets need a player they can put in pick and roll situations with Harden and Lin. That would put less pressure on those guys to beat a player off the dribble, and allow Harden to showcase his playmaking ability. Pick and roll power forward makes Houston a playoff team.


----------



## 36 Karat

Luke said:


> Why would you take 48 million when you can make 80 million elsewhere? That's not being selfish, that's just not being an idiot.


Because you have a legitimate chance to win in a city where you are already accepted, you have solidified relationships with teammates/coaches, and, as several posters have already notes, it's not as if James Harden was in a desperate financial state prior to the trade. Staying in Oklahoma City would not have made James Harden an idiot. No fan of the game, no pundit would be arguing that "James Harden is an absolute _fool_ (I'm imagining Stephen A. here) for sticking around with this squad.." -- that wouldn't be the case at all. The fact that he abandoned the situation he was in suggests some possibility of selfish nature. Here's a stat: Harden's taken 33 more shots this season than the next closest, Lin with 50. He's a number one option that isn't in the upper echelon of number one options, so enough talk of his "explosion" or what else. He's a gifted player, but he's not _that_ dude.


----------



## RollWithEm

kbdullah said:


> Rockets need a player they can put in pick and roll situations with Harden and Lin. That would put less pressure on those guys to beat a player off the dribble, and allow Harden to showcase his playmaking ability. Pick and roll power forward makes Houston a playoff team.


That person could very possibly be Royce White. I truly wonder why he doesn't get into games.


----------



## Bogg

36 Karat said:


> Because you have a legitimate chance to win in a city where you are already accepted, you have solidified relationships with teammates/coaches, and, as several posters have already notes, it's not as if James Harden was in a desperate financial state prior to the trade. Staying in Oklahoma City would not have made James Harden an idiot. No fan of the game, no pundit would be arguing that "James Harden is an absolute _fool_ (I'm imagining Stephen A. here) for sticking around with this squad.." -- that wouldn't be the case at all. The fact that he abandoned the situation he was in suggests some possibility of selfish nature. Here's a stat: Harden's taken 33 more shots this season than the next closest, Lin with 50. He's a number one option that isn't in the upper echelon of number one options, so enough talk of his "explosion" or what else. He's a gifted player, but he's not _that_ dude.


How about this: Kevin Durant's greed dismantled his championship-level supporting cast. He has the ability to make far more in endorsements than his teammates, and as such should have taken a reduced contract so that OKC could pay the necessary teammates to help him secure his spot in history...




In reality, guys don't give discounts on their first big contract (except maybe Rondo, the bastion of camaraderie that he is), and nobody walks away from an extra 32 million. Harden left because OKC low-balled him when he had made sacrifices for the good of the team since day one, and also because he wanted to establish his own greatness.


----------



## R-Star

Ok, first off here, of course AI is better. If anyone is actually arguing that they probably just started watching basketball a few years ago.

Also, its a two way street for the "He's greedy/He'd be dumb not to leave" crowds. I'm one of the guys always touting how important loyalty is, but if I was offered a #1 spot and an extra 32 million dollar, I'd probably take it.
But on the flip side, no, Harden would not be an idiot for staying. If he felt that loyal to the club and the rest of the players, he would have stayed and took the hit, and there'd be no reason to shun him for it. 

So far it looks like its working out for both sides, so everyone should be happy at this point.


----------



## R-Star

R-Star said:


> If Martin disappoints in OKC I'll be the first to admit being wrong. Problem is, if I'm right, I plan to hear either nothing or excuses come my way.


Kind of called that one didn't I, hey EH?


----------



## Dre

*****.* Out of here. Y'all be throwing shit up against the wall....

Harden is not seeing Iverson ever.


----------



## 36 Karat

Dre said:


> *****.* Out of here. Y'all be throwing shit up against the wall....
> 
> Harden is not seeing Iverson ever.


[/thread]



Bogg said:


> How about this: Kevin Durant's greed dismantled his championship-level supporting cast. He has the ability to make far more in endorsements than his teammates, and as such should have taken a reduced contract so that OKC could pay the necessary teammates to help him secure his spot in history...
> 
> In reality, guys don't give discounts on their first big contract (except maybe Rondo, the bastion of camaraderie that he is), and nobody walks away from an extra 32 million. Harden left because OKC low-balled him when he had made sacrifices for the good of the team since day one, and also because he wanted to establish his own greatness.


This is a good take on the trade itself, and that argument could be made of KD et cetera.


----------



## Dre

I wouldn't call Durant getting all his money "greed", when you consider he signed his deal two years ago right? It's easy to say that now but he's not a financial analyst, it isn't his job to project what his cap will look like two years from now, he left it up to Presti as he should and _they_ mismanaged it. All he was doing was taking market value like every other player, again I note *two years out* from this juncture...it's not like all three had negotiations at the same time.

You all want to play the "you could break your leg any day" card regarding college players coming out, but why should Durant bank on "future endorsements" and take guaranteed money off his plate when if he tears his ACL today or tomorrow those deals are off the table? 

Anyway I came into this thread to note an actual good NBA defense is making Harden look like a second wheel a tad in over his head. Looks a little unsure of himself and is taking bad shots that he never used to take.


----------



## 36 Karat

Yeah I'm not agreeing that's the case whatsoever, I'm just noting that argument could be made of any franchise player while subtlety trying to put this thread to bed.


----------



## R-Star

Nobody wants to talk about shitty old Kevin Martin? 

EH?

Memphis?

Anyone?


----------



## BlakeJesus

I don't blame Harden for wanted to be his own man and make more money doing it. It's interesting to me that coming into the draft, one of the knocks on Harden was that sometimes you wish he'd be _more_ selfish because of how talented he was. He didn't mind passing to his teammates and preferred the right basketball play even if it didn't involve him scoring as a result. I think playing sidekick for a few years shook him out of that, so I'm all for it if he's 100% willing to accept the role as a number one option. It's actually a little refreshing to see him progress mentally like this, I think it's a sign of good things.


----------



## MemphisX

R-Star said:


> Nobody wants to talk about shitty old Kevin Martin?
> 
> EH?
> 
> Memphis?
> 
> Anyone?


No need to talk about it. I know how this ends. After the Harden trade and the 'Antoni hire, I am on cloud 9 as a Memphis fan.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

rayz789 said:


> YAY!!! Ai did something in nba history and that cross a 33 year old jordan while in that same year rookie ai lead his sixers to only 22 wins.


And yet he still won rookie of the year. Nice epic fail.


----------



## R-Star

BlakeJesus said:


> I don't blame Harden for wanted to be his own man and make more money doing it. It's interesting to me that coming into the draft, one of the knocks on Harden was that sometimes you wish he'd be _more_ selfish because of how talented he was. He didn't mind passing to his teammates and preferred the right basketball play even if it didn't involve him scoring as a result. I think playing sidekick for a few years shook him out of that, so I'm all for it if he's 100% willing to accept the role as a number one option. It's actually a little refreshing to see him progress mentally like this, I think it's a sign of good things.


Harden becoming a ball hog and a chucker is a good thing?


We view basketball completely different.


----------



## R-Star

MemphisX said:


> No need to talk about it. I know how this ends. After the Harden trade and the 'Antoni hire, I am on cloud 9 as a Memphis fan.


No need to talk about it? You called him out as a bad player, I quoted you saying I assumed you'd never open your mouth to admit you were wrong if Martin played well, and look where we are now.


Small sample size, but with all the Harden talk, the guys who played Kevin Martin out to be a nobody chump sure are quiet now. 



As per usual EH Munro is nowhere to be seen, even though according to him he's the first guy on the website to admit when he's wrong.


----------



## BlakeJesus

R-Star said:


> Harden becoming a ball hog and a chucker is a good thing?
> 
> 
> We view basketball completely different.


He's embracing a role as "the guy", when that's something he used to shy away from. He's a potent scorer, a really great passer/ballhandler for an off guard, and he plays solid defense. My point is that he used to be unselfish to the point where some viewed it as a knock on his game. I think his success early in Oklahoma, mixed with the fact that they were starting Thabo Sefalosha over him, not to mention they wanted to offer him less money than he was worth, have all contributed to him being willing to take a step forward as the leader of a team. If you want to view it as him being a selfish chucker that's your prerogative, but I definitely think there's more to it than that.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

R-Star said:


> Harden becoming a ball hog and a chucker is a good thing?
> 
> 
> We view basketball completely different.


R star, you view things differently than a lot of people lol


----------



## MemphisX

R-Star said:


> No need to talk about it? You called him out as a bad player, I quoted you saying I assumed you'd never open your mouth to admit you were wrong if Martin played well, and look where we are now.
> 
> 
> Small sample size, but with all the Harden talk, the guys who played Kevin Martin out to be a nobody chump sure are quiet now.
> 
> 
> 
> As per usual EH Munro is nowhere to be seen, even though according to him he's the first guy on the website to admit when he's wrong.


He is a bad player. He has always put up stats. Not sure how you figured him doing what he has always done was going to change my opinion of him. I never said he would put up bad stats, just he was a bad player. For Okc, the pain comes in the playoffs.


----------



## R-Star

MemphisX said:


> He is a bad player. He has always put up stats. Not sure how you figured him doing what he has always done was going to change my opinion of him. I never said he would put up bad stats, just he was a bad player. For Okc, the pain comes in the playoffs.


Wow.......


So now you're switching to, "Just wait until the playoffs! Then you'll see."



Stick to not replying ok Chauchy? Because that's ****ing pathetic.


----------



## R-Star

By the way, last 5 games for Harden 20ppg on 33% shooting with 17.2% from behind the arc. 4.2 rebounds and 3.6 assists for 4.6 turnovers per game.



Like I said, chucker like stats. The same thing people got on Kevin Martin for.


----------



## Bogg

MemphisX said:


> He is a bad player. He has always put up stats. Not sure how you figured him doing what he has always done was going to change my opinion of him. I never said he would put up bad stats, just he was a bad player. For Okc, the pain comes in the playoffs.


Martin's a bad option for your franchise player, or even your sidekick. However, he's perfectly adequate if all you're asking from him is bench scoring and to carry the offense for short stretches. Harden might be better at it, but if all you need is mid-teens scoring Martin's fine. 

This touches on a bigger point that gets me, which is when guys who clearly aren't "team leaders" are labeled either "winners" or "losers" based purely on who they're playing with. If Derek Fisher doesn't have the good fortune to play with Kobe and Shaq; and later Kobe, Gasol, and Bynum; he winds up just another career journeyman.


----------



## MemphisX

R-Star said:


> Wow.......
> 
> 
> So now you're switching to, "Just wait until the playoffs! Then you'll see."
> 
> 
> 
> Stick to not replying ok Chauchy? Because that's ****ing pathetic.


 Why would I be judging a trade by a NBA finals team based on their regular season success?


----------



## e-monk

R-Star said:


> By the way, last 5 games for Harden 20ppg on 33% shooting with 17.2% from behind the arc. 4.2 rebounds and 3.6 assists for 4.6 turnovers per game.
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, chucker like stats. The same thing people got on Kevin Martin for.


this, his scoring is up but his efg is down 10 points from last season as is his per minute production on assists and rebounds - after a couple monster games to start the season he's looked pretty much like some said he would


----------



## R-Star

MemphisX said:


> Why would I be judging a trade by a NBA finals team based on their regular season success?


Seeing as you already judged the trade before an actual NBA game was played this season, I think you already answered your own question.


----------



## R-Star

e-monk said:


> this, his scoring is up but his efg is down 10 points from last season as is his per minute production on assists and rebounds - after a couple monster games to start the season he's looked pretty much like some said he would


Yep.


Funny how that works.


----------



## Jace

Funny how so many were thumping their chests and distributing "I TOLD YOU SO"'s with a reckless abandon after his first two games.






The beard, is weird.


----------



## R-Star

Jace said:


> Funny how so many were thumping their chests and distributing "I TOLD YOU SO"'s with a reckless abandon after his first two games.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The beard, is weird.


Yea, this threads slowed down quite a bit hasn't it?


----------



## R-Star

Tonight against the Cats

*Kevin Martin: 27 points on 56% shooting in 25 minutes*


Nope. He sucks right? Hes going to be a terrible third option. 


There's nothing worse on this site than posters who refuse to at least say "Hey, hes surprised me."

OKC isn't minding this trade one bit so far.


----------



## Jamel Irief

I didn't follow this thread that closely, but last time I was really active in it I thought everyone was saying the Thunder ripped the Rockets off?


----------



## e-monk

no Martin was a piece of shit and Harden was going to be better than Lebron once he had his own spotlight


----------



## R-Star

Jamel Irief said:


> I didn't follow this thread that closely, but last time I was really active in it I thought everyone was saying the Thunder ripped the Rockets off?


Ever seen a thread where one popular poster talks shit about a player no one ever watches and all the idiots pull a "Yea! I've seen that guys on play 100+ games and he sucks! Good call EH Munro! Me too! Me too! I'm included!"


Yep......


----------



## R-Star

e-monk said:


> no Martin was a piece of shit and Harden was going to be better than Lebron once he had his own spotlight


Remind me in a month that I was going to rep you here but it tells me I have to spread reputation around.



Rep from R-Star is like seeing a Leprechaun riding a unicorn. Feel special when it happens, because at that moment, you are bro, you are.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

R-Star said:


> Tonight against the Cats
> 
> *Kevin Martin: 27 points on 56% shooting in 25 minutes*
> 
> 
> Nope. He sucks right? Hes going to be a terrible third option.
> 
> 
> There's nothing worse on this site than posters who refuse to at least say "Hey, hes surprised me."
> 
> OKC isn't minding this trade one bit so far.


I don't think anyone's surprised yet because everyone knew that he would be a great third SCORING option for OKC. No one was ever denying that. Come on now. 

Until he plays great defense and is able to set up plays for others, I am still not surprised at his performance. He's a gifted scorer. But right now he needs to be more than that.


----------



## ChrisWoj

Jace said:


> Funny how so many were thumping their chests and distributing "I TOLD YOU SO"'s with a reckless abandon after his first two games.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The beard, is weird.


It was an Andrew Bogut spoof. Had to be. Too similar.


----------



## e-monk

XxIrvingxX said:


> I don't think anyone's surprised yet because everyone knew that he would be a great third SCORING option for OKC. No one was ever denying that. Come on now.
> 
> *Until he plays great defense* and is able to set up plays for others, I am still not surprised at his performance. He's a gifted scorer. But right now he needs to be more than that.


if his job is to replace what Harden did for them(which it's not) why would he have to play 'great defense' when wholly mediocre defense will do the trick?


----------



## R-Star

XxIrvingxX said:


> I don't think anyone's surprised yet because everyone knew that he would be a great third SCORING option for OKC. No one was ever denying that. Come on now.
> 
> Until he plays great defense and is able to set up plays for others, I am still not surprised at his performance. He's a gifted scorer. But right now he needs to be more than that.


Uhhhh yea, Harden doesn't play anything over average defense, and Martin has actually done that quite well if you've watched any OKC games.

And Harden was getting 4 assists per game last year. Lets quit acting like he was out there setting up the majority of plays like some sort of pass wizard.


If you read this thread, people were saying Martin got shots as a chucker with terrible percentages. I took the stance that he had to since he was the main option, and his percentages would go up now that he's the third option, hes now at 48%.

Lets stop trying to rewrite what people said about Martin in this thread ok?


----------



## Hyperion

R-Star said:


> Uhhhh yea, Harden doesn't play anything over average defense, and Martin has actually done that quite well if you've watched any OKC games.
> 
> And Harden was getting 4 assists per game last year. Lets quit acting like he was out there setting up the majority of plays like some sort of pass wizard.
> 
> 
> If you read this thread, people were saying Martin got shots as a chucker with terrible percentages. I took the stance that he had to since he was the main option, and his percentages would go up now that he's the third option, hes now at 48%.
> 
> Lets stop trying to rewrite what people said about Martin in this thread ok?


Maybe you're not understanding the NBA. Harden COULD become better one day even if he's not today. Therefore he's a better player. Harden has been underrated by you and quite a few others and hopefully he develops into the type of player he can be, but bad habits form fast after you get 80million guaranteed to you. The league is so slim with quality SGs that Harden easily slides into the top 5. There's Kobe, Wade, Johnson, and that's about it. Harden is still a tweener though and has a ceiling just a little higher than Martin.


----------



## R-Star

Hyperion said:


> Maybe you're not understanding the NBA. Harden COULD become better one day even if he's not today. Therefore he's a better player. Harden has been underrated by you and quite a few others and hopefully he develops into the type of player he can be, but bad habits form fast after you get 80million guaranteed to you. The league is so slim with quality SGs that Harden easily slides into the top 5. There's Kobe, Wade, Johnson, and that's about it. Harden is still a tweener though and has a ceiling just a little higher than Martin.


Where did I ever say he couldn't become better, or that he wasn't clearly a better player than Kevin Martin?



Are we making stuff up now? Is that what we're doing?


----------



## Hyperion

You don't understand. Martin sucks and Harden is the greatest ever. No, wait, he's da gr8est eva!! People forget about good players when they're on crappy teams.


----------



## e-monk

Hyperion said:


> Maybe you're not understanding the NBA. Harden COULD become better one day even if he's not today. Therefore he's a better player. Harden has been underrated by you and quite a few others and hopefully he develops into the type of player he can be, but bad habits form fast after you get 80million guaranteed to you. The league is so slim with quality SGs that Harden easily slides into the top 5. There's Kobe, Wade, Johnson, and that's about it. Harden is still a tweener though and has a ceiling just a little higher than Martin.


so the problem here is that the trade wasnt Harden for Martin, it was Harden for Martin + Lamb + picks + cap flexibility 

people who are focusing on Martin v Harden are really thinking about how the trade impacts OKCs prospects this year which is fair play 

but if the answer is that Martin can do enough of what Harden did this year (which seems to be the case so far) and you still get all the rest (prospects, cap space etc) down the line and therefore you can continue to compete at a high level and maybe even become a deeper (AND less expensive) team for it then what is the issue?


----------



## E.H. Munro

Hyperion said:


> Maybe you're not understanding the NBA. Harden COULD become better one day even if he's not today. Therefore he's a better player. Harden has been underrated by you and quite a few others and hopefully he develops into the type of player he can be, but bad habits form fast after you get 80million guaranteed to you. The league is so slim with quality SGs that Harden easily slides into the top 5. There's Kobe, Wade, Johnson, and that's about it. Harden is still a tweener though and has a ceiling just a little higher than Martin.


A little higher? He isn't a mortal lock to miss 25 games to injury, actually plays defense, and isn't a black hole. His _present_ is better. His peak is a level that Martin hasn't ever seen (and at 30 won't ever see).


----------



## XxIrvingxX

R-Star said:


> Uhhhh yea, Harden doesn't play anything over average defense, and Martin has actually done that quite well if you've watched any OKC games.


Never said anything about Hardens defense at all. All I said was that he needs to play great defense to make up for them losing Harden.



R-Star said:


> And Harden was getting 4 assists per game last year. Lets quit acting like he was out there setting up the majority of plays like some sort of pass wizard.


Again, I said absolutely no such thing. 

Maybe you misinterpreted my point. The reason why I said Martin would have to do those things is because those are the things Harden could quite possibly end up becoming good at. James Harden is still a very young player, he's only 23 years old. He has plenty of time to be able to pick up on those things and become great at doing them.

Martin on the other hand is already in his prime, pretty soon he's going to start to be on the decline, which is bad considering how OKC's two best players are better scorers than him and are still very young, so there isn't much purpose imo for Martin to be in OKC. But I guess he could help others become great scorers.

OKC traded away a potential all star in Harden (which he will most likely become) for someone who is just known for scoring and that's it. To make up for it, Martin is going to have to start doing more than just scoring.


----------



## e-monk

E.H. Munro said:


> A little higher? He isn't a mortal lock to miss 25 games to injury, actually plays defense, and isn't a black hole. His _present_ is better. His peak is a level that Martin hasn't ever seen (and at 30 won't ever see).


so? Harden was never going to be any of that as 3rd banana and the thunder weren't able to pay 1st banana money and continue to be viable so what should they have done the deal or not? (or did you just want to wade in to correct someone slightly?)


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> A little higher? He isn't a mortal lock to miss 25 games to injury, actually plays defense, and isn't a black hole. His _present_ is better. His peak is a level that Martin hasn't ever seen (and at 30 won't ever see).


Yep. Hes a lock to miss 25 games for sure EH. We know this because you said so, and so far you've been right about everything with Martin.


He sure is a black hole though. I mean, he's scoring as much as Harden did last year....... on less shots.


And you know, people actually watch OKC games, and they've seen Martin play decent defense all year so far. But again, you say he doesn't so we'll just go with your word on it.




Who wants to bet if Martin plays like this all year, EH hides from this thread until I forcibly bring him back in kicking and screaming, and even then he won't admit he was wrong?


----------



## R-Star

XxIrvingxX said:


> Never said anything about Hardens defense at all. All I said was that he needs to play great defense to make up for them losing Harden.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I said absolutely no such thing.
> 
> Maybe you misinterpreted my point. The reason why I said Martin would have to do those things is because those are the things Harden could quite possibly end up becoming good at. James Harden is still a very young player, he's only 23 years old. He has plenty of time to be able to pick up on those things and become great at doing them.
> 
> Martin on the other hand is already in his prime, pretty soon he's going to start to be on the decline, which is bad considering how OKC's two best players are better scorers than him and are still very young, so there isn't much purpose imo for Martin to be in OKC. But I guess he could help others become great scorers.
> 
> OKC traded away a potential all star in Harden (which he will most likely become)* for someone who is just known for scoring and that's it.* To make up for it, Martin is going to have to start doing more than just scoring.


Jesus.

1) Harden is also only known for scoring. He isn't a great defender, hes not some top assist man, honestly, tell me what Hardens known for outside of scoring? He can add chucking and being a ball hog now I guess.

2) Kevin Martin is a finished product and will only get worse, and Harden will improve? Great. You do understand Martins contract is up after this season right? He either resigns in OKC for a big discount to what he makes now, or they use that cap space on other things. They didn't have the money to pay Harden a max contract.

3) Martin has to do this, Martin has to do that to make up for Harden being gone? Have you watched OKC play? He's filling Hardens role perfectly. Hes scoring at the same clip and same percentages as Harden did when he left, so scoring wise they aren't missing a damn thing.




Does anyone here even watch ****ing basketball? Its an honest question.


----------



## e-monk

I do sometimes


----------



## R-Star

e-monk said:


> I do sometimes


I know. We've posted in gameday threads together.


Like brothers...


----------



## XxIrvingxX

R-Star said:


> Jesus.
> 
> 1) Harden is also only known for scoring. He isn't a great defender, hes not some top assist man, honestly, tell me what Hardens known for outside of scoring? He can add chucking and being a ball hog now I guess.
> 
> 2) Kevin Martin is a finished product and will only get worse, and Harden will improve? Great. You do understand Martins contract is up after this season right? He either resigns in OKC for a big discount to what he makes now, or they use that cap space on other things. They didn't have the money to pay Harden a max contract.
> 
> 3) Martin has to do this, Martin has to do that to make up for Harden being gone? Have you watched OKC play? He's filling Hardens role perfectly. Hes scoring at the same clip and same percentages as Harden did when he left, so scoring wise they aren't missing a damn thing.


1) Again, I wasn't arguing this. Did you even read what I said?

2) Actually no I didn't...well shit.

3) Yea no he isn't. Scoring well in a couple of games isn't filling Harden's role perfectly. Harden may be a ball chucker now, but he wasn't like that in OKC, and when he did it, he did it when OKC needed someone to step up for them. I honestly don't know why he's suddenly doing it while abandoning all reasoning.


----------



## E.H. Munro

e-monk said:


> so? Harden was never going to be any of that as 3rd banana and the thunder weren't able to pay 1st banana money and continue to be viable so what should they have done the deal or not? (or did you just want to wade in to correct someone slightly?)


I'm not sure what any of this has to do with Hyperion's statement.


----------



## MemphisX

Still early and I stand by my thought that this will go down as a catastrophically bad trade for Okc. At the end of the season we will be talking about how good KMart's stats are and how much worse Okc became as a team.


----------



## R-Star

MemphisX said:


> Still early and I stand by my thought that this will go down as a catastrophically bad trade for Okc. At the end of the season we will be talking about how good KMart's stats are and how much worse Okc became as a team.


We will see. But are you saying they're playing worse right now? Because I don't see it.


----------



## MemphisX

R-Star said:


> We will see. But are you saying they're playing worse right now? Because I don't see it.


Yes. They are currently taking advantage of a very easy schedule. Only one win over a +.500 team.


----------



## Jamel Irief

R-Star said:


> Jesus.
> 
> 1) Harden is also only known for scoring. He isn't a great defender, hes not some top assist man, honestly, tell me what Hardens known for outside of scoring? He can add chucking and being a ball hog now I guess.
> 
> 2) Kevin Martin is a finished product and will only get worse, and Harden will improve? Great. You do understand Martins contract is up after this season right? He either resigns in OKC for a big discount to what he makes now, or they use that cap space on other things. They didn't have the money to pay Harden a max contract.
> 
> 3) Martin has to do this, Martin has to do that to make up for Harden being gone? Have you watched OKC play? He's filling Hardens role perfectly. Hes scoring at the same clip and same percentages as Harden did when he left, so scoring wise they aren't missing a damn thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone here even watch ****ing basketball? Its an honest question.


Question, did you watch the game where Martin scored 26 the other night?


Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## R-Star

Jamel Irief said:


> Question, did you watch the game where Martin scored 26 the other night?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


Uhhh... yea... but he's going to be injured for 26 games this seasons and something something playoffs, so it doesn't matter.


----------



## R-Star

So I've watched about 4 Rockets game this season, finally had it.


Where the **** is this defense you guys brought up for Harden?

"There will be a huge hole on defense when they replace Hardin with Martin!" Pretty much word for word from like 3 of you.

Harden isn't even allowed to guard Kobe. The guys is an average defender at best, like I said from day one.


Again, guys like EH, do you even ****ing watch any of the players you talk about? Give whatever answer you want, but the majority of us already know the answer.


----------



## Jamel Irief

R-Star said:


> Uhhh... yea... but he's going to be injured for 26 games this seasons and something something playoffs, so it doesn't matter.


You watched him score 26 points against the cats huh?


Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## R-Star

Jamel Irief said:


> You watched him score 26 points against the cats huh?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


Saw some, not all. Is this some "27, not 26!" thing?


Because if so, the Adam comparisons are apt.


----------



## e-monk

hey last night:

Martin 23pts on 8 of 15 shooting 2 rbd 5 ast 2 TOs - 31 minutes
Harden 20pts on 7 of 18 shooting 2 rbd 7 ast 5 TOs - 38 minutes


----------



## Jamel Irief

R-Star said:


> Saw some, not all. Is this some "27, not 26!" thing?
> 
> 
> Because if so, the Adam comparisons are apt.


It's just the thunder haven't played the bobcats yet, so I thought it was weird you were lecturing people for not watching the games. 


Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Dre

R-Star said:


> Again, guys like EH, do you even ****ing watch any of the players you talk about? Give whatever answer you want, but the majority of us already know the answer.


Ehmunro still contends Rondo plays when he wants to despite being 12 games away from the record for most 10+ assist games in a row...and this is a guy on his team supposedly


----------



## E.H. Munro

Did you watch last night's Detroit game? He mailed in the entire game. The only reason the record is still alive is that Boston spent the last three minutes of a blowout running plays to get Rondo his 10 assists, and that was about the only part of the game that he gave any effort. (Apparently the Pistons refused to let him bring the Boston scorekeepers with him, and they've done yeoman's work in making a mockery of the record.)


----------



## Dre

:2ti: Exactly


----------



## Bogg

Every time Celtics fans overrate the importance of a player on message boards EH spends enough time reeling them back in that he winds up being too negative on them going forward. The same thing happened with Al Jefferson in the Garnett trade and with Kendrick Perkins being shipped out. If Avery Bradley comes back healthy, plays well, and winds up in trade talks for Josh Smith only for C's fans to react loudly and negatively, we'll be hearing how Avery's barely a passable third guard.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Bogg said:


> Every time Celtics fans overrate the importance of a player on message boards EH spends enough time reeling them back in that he winds up being too negative on them going forward. The same thing happened with Al Jefferson in the Garnett trade and with Kendrick Perkins being shipped out. If Avery Bradley comes back healthy, plays well, and winds up in trade talks for Josh Smith only for C's fans to react loudly and negatively, we'll be hearing how Avery's barely a passable third guard.


Huh? I was about the only person on these boards that _liked_ the Bradley selection. I'd even put him on my Boston wish list a couple of years ago when I wrote my pre-draft piece (you can look it up). I've maintained from the start that he's going to be a pretty good combo guard. Of course, I don't _overrate_ him, so you won't see me saying, as Boston fans have been of late, "How could you think of trading Bradley for [insert name of top 25 NBA player here]‽ He's a franchise guard and the greatest defensive 2 in the history of the NBA!!!!!"

Similarly with Rondo, against Toronto the Garden scorekeepers gave him assists on a Jeff Green dribble drive, a Green two off the dribble, and a Garnett step back drive. Because I do watch I see all these things, and know to take the record with a grain of salt.


----------



## R-Star

Jamel Irief said:


> It's just the thunder haven't played the bobcats yet, so I thought it was weird you were lecturing people for not watching the games.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


Hornets.

What exactly are we doing here?


----------



## Porn Player

I believe you're sparring. 

It's enjoyable for the crowd.


----------



## R-Star

Jamel Irief said:


> You watched him score 26 points against the cats huh?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Verticalsports.com Free App


Ahhhh.... I went back and read my post. I've got her all figured out.


I used to do the same thing with the Nashville Predators and Columbus Blue Jackets in the NHL. Once the Preds turned into a good team I quit mixing the two up.

Pretty sure it happens for teams that are terrible so you never talk about them, but have similar looking jerseys when you look at them in your head.


I hate that response after reading it, but its reality.


----------



## R-Star

Porn Player said:


> I believe you're sparring.
> 
> It's enjoyable for the crowd.


You should spend your time fearing our inevitable match up in the weeks to come.


----------



## Hyperion

They're both from Charlotte and I stopped reading after points.


----------



## Porn Player

Ha, I'm shooting up that league like a hunter in Reddeer. 

3 weeks running I've totaled the most points, even last week when Lowry didn't suit up. Hopefully when you get Wall back, and KJ gets Love and Rose I'll have some competition.


----------



## Bogg

E.H. Munro said:


> Huh? I was about the only person on these boards that _liked_ the Bradley selection. I'd even put him on my Boston wish list a couple of years ago when I wrote my pre-draft piece (you can look it up). I've maintained from the start that he's going to be a pretty good combo guard. Of course, I don't _overrate_ him, so you won't see me saying, as Boston fans have been of late, "How could you think of trading Bradley for [insert name of top 25 NBA player here]‽ He's a franchise guard and the greatest defensive 2 in the history of the NBA!!!!!"


It was a theoretical, I wasn't referencing you going after Bradley in any specific thread. The Celtics fans online have a habit of overrating any competent young player on the squad, and they'll do the same with Bradley if he winds up in trade talks. I expect that you'll wind up too negative on him in the future if people argue that Boston destroyed their perimeter depth in giving him up for a guy like Smith (which would be wrong, like it was wrong to lament trading Jefferson for KG)





E.H. Munro said:


> Similarly with Rondo, against Toronto the Garden scorekeepers gave him assists on a Jeff Green dribble drive, a Green two off the dribble, and a Garnett step back drive. Because I do watch I see all these things, and know to take the record with a grain of salt.


I don't put any stock into the record, but I do think he's, at minimum, among the very best set-up guys in the league. However, I tell my friends all the time that Rondo openly stat-pads for his assist total, only he never gets called out on it because it isn't a "selfish" stat. He unquestionably makes the Boston offense better, but if he looked to score just a little more it would have a positive effect.


----------



## R-Star

Porn Player said:


> Ha, I'm shooting up that league like a hunter in Reddeer.
> 
> 3 weeks running I've totaled the most points, even last week when Lowry didn't suit up. Hopefully when you get Wall back, and KJ gets Love and Rose I'll have some competition.


Kawhi is injured for 2 weeks now too, so I'm stuck with 3 guys on the IR.

If I wasn't winning every week I'd probably panic and would have dropped Harrington.



Would you hunt with a bow or a gun?


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> Would you hunt with a bow or a gun?


They aren't allowed firearms in the Brittanic Socialist Republic.


----------



## Porn Player

R-Star said:


> Would you hunt with a bow or a gun?


A bow. 

But I wouldn't hunt, unless I was killing to eat. 

You?


----------



## Jamel Irief

E.H. Munro said:


> Huh? I was about the only person on these boards that _liked_ the Bradley selection. I'd even put him on my Boston wish list a couple of years ago when I wrote my pre-draft piece (you can look it up). I've maintained from the start that he's going to be a pretty good combo guard. Of course, I don't _overrate_ him, so you won't see me saying, as Boston fans have been of late, "How could you think of trading Bradley for [insert name of top 25 NBA player here]‽ He's a franchise guard and the greatest defensive 2 in the history of the NBA!!!!!"
> 
> Similarly with Rondo, against Toronto the Garden scorekeepers gave him assists on a Jeff Green dribble drive, a Green two off the dribble, and a Garnett step back drive. Because I do watch I see all these things, and know to take the record with a grain of salt.





Bogg said:


> Every time Celtics fans overrate the importance of a player on message boards EH spends enough time reeling them back in that he winds up being too negative on them going forward. The same thing happened with Al Jefferson in the Garnett trade and with Kendrick Perkins being shipped out. If Avery Bradley comes back healthy, plays well, and winds up in trade talks for Josh Smith only for C's fans to react loudly and negatively, we'll be hearing how Avery's barely a passable third guard.


R-star is kind of like that with Heat fans. Otherwise all we would hear non-stop in their rookie years is how good Dorrel Wright, Dequan Cook, Terrell Harris and Norris Cole are.


----------



## Porn Player

You forgot Patrick Beverley.


----------



## R-Star

Jamel Irief said:


> R-star is kind of like that with Heat fans. Otherwise all we would hear non-stop in their rookie years is how good Dorrel Wright, Dequan Cook, Terrell Harris and Norris Cole are.


That is true. I used to go off on some Dorrel Wright rants.


One dude was calling him a young Tracy McGrady and I lost my shit.


----------



## Jamel Irief

I remember last year someone in there said "I would trade Haslem (or Anthony?) and Miller for Nene" and I asked "what if they made you throw in Pittman?" 

His response was something along the lines of, "well, it would suck to lose him... but we might never develop him further" or something. This was before Nene got hurt mind you.


----------



## R-Star

Porn Player said:


> A bow.
> 
> But I wouldn't hunt, unless I was killing to eat.
> 
> You?


I was going to go somewhere with the answer but was never really sure.


Anyways, no, I don't hunt. Never have.


I found a mouse in my garage and threw it outside a few days ago, and then felt terrible because I was scared he froze to death.


----------



## R-Star

Jamel Irief said:


> I remember last year someone in there said "I would trade Haslem (or Anthony?) and Miller for Nene" and I asked "what if they made you throw in Pittman?"
> 
> His response was something along the lines of, "well, it would suck to lose him... but we might never develop him further" or something. This was before Nene got hurt mind you.


That's why the majority of those guys stick to the Heat forum and refuse to come out.

Its always fun to go in there and stumble upon someone calling Norris Cole a promising young PG, or Anthony is some sort of premier defensive center.


Who did they draft this year? If they had a draft pick I bet whoever they picked was the steal of the draft and will probably be a superstar.


----------



## MemphisX

Is Joel Anthony still on the team? :2ti:


----------



## E.H. Munro

Bogg said:


> It was a theoretical, I wasn't referencing you going after Bradley in any specific thread. The Celtics fans online have a habit of overrating any competent young player on the squad, and they'll do the same with Bradley if he winds up in trade talks. I expect that you'll wind up too negative on him in the future if people argue that Boston destroyed their perimeter depth in giving him up for a guy like Smith (which would be wrong, like it was wrong to lament trading Jefferson for KG)


No, I'm pretty sure that here or anywhere Bradley's going to end up being one of the better combo guards in the NBA. He just isn't a franchise player. And I think you may be misremembering my point about Al (NOTE: Bogg came here from another message board where the debate he's referring to took place). 

From the start I said that it was nigh on impossible to build a contender around an offensive roleplayer with Jefferson's particular skillset, and that Boston should get out while the value was high (it's a perimeter game these days, encouraged so by the rule changes of the last 15 years). People, even NBA GMs, ooohed and ahhhed over the pretty post moves, and figured that maybe they could make him not be Al Jefferson and, as such, the next Amar'e. As it turned out, years later, he's turned into a pretty good roleplayer now that he's accepted that he has to play some defense and can't be the first option on offense. But jesus was it obvious that you had to turn him into a real all star before the rest of the NBA figured out that his real upside was "good roleplayer".


----------



## Bogg

Jefferson is what he is, a competent third option who could start on a champion if the other big is good at protecting the rim. However, there was a time before the C's won the title where people were up in arms about mortgaging the future and I remember you presenting him as a fraudulent stat-padder who couldn't contribute to a winning team. You weren't wrong about not being able to build a contender around Jefferson, but for a while went too far in the other direction. It's similar to how Perkins went from being a good defensive backstop to an overpaid bum when posters (wrongly) thought that trading him away cost Boston the title in 2011.


----------



## E.H. Munro

I didn't say he was "an overpaid bum". I said "Boston couldn't afford to extend him for cap reasons and if he hit free agency they would be locked into a Rondo/Perkins squad going forward." That was a losing hand so I have no regrets for Boston trading out of it. And not having Perkins sitting on the bench cheering certainly didn't cost Boston a title. Age/injuries did just fine for that.

He _is_ playing like shit these days, but that's because knee injuries have sapped him of what quickness he had. He's still useful in the same way Jason Collins is, but not at the sort of money that OKC is paying him. And Jefferson absolutely was a defenseless stat padder in Boston & Minnesota, but since last season (not so coincidentally when Utah suddenly had other options at the 4/5) he's begun to not be a shitty defender, and accepted that he can't be the focal point of a team's offense.


----------



## Bogg

There wasn't anything _for_ Jefferson to do in Boston or Minnesota but get stats, you know as well as I do that those teams were guaranteed to be awful no matter what Jefferson did. It was always obvious that he would be a valuable starter if paired with the right personnel. It's like Kevin Martin doing the same things now he did in Sacramento and Houston. 

As far as Perkins goes, all he was (and still is) ever good at was post defense, and the knee injuries haven't robbed him of his ability to do that. OKC decided to hold onto him and trade away Harden largely because their primary in-conference challenger and one of the popular dark horses both feature two high-quality post scorers in their lineup. 

As far as the 2011 Celtics go, Ainge letting Tony Allen walk over a third year on his contract(a decision that he doesn't catch enough heat for, btw) and Shaq's calf are what killed their title chances. If Tony Allen was around to keep Marquis Daniels' neck injury from setting off a panic, and Shaq and Perkins were splitting the time at center, the C's could have gotten past the Heat.


----------



## R-Star

Well look, another thread on potential ruin because EH is arguing with someone and refusing to admit there's any chance something he said in the past is wrong.



...Well this is new


----------



## Bogg

Well, let's not get personal with it. I'm way more wrong than what I'm describing all the time. I argued up and down that Corey Brewer was going to be a game-changing defender and that Taurean Green would make a nice game manager off the bench.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Bogg said:


> There wasn't anything _for_ Jefferson to do in Boston or Minnesota but get stats, you know as well as I do that those teams were guaranteed to be awful no matter what Jefferson did. It was always obvious that he would be a valuable starter if paired with the right personnel. It's like Kevin Martin doing the same things now he did in Sacramento and Houston.


Yes, but he wasn't trying to win games, he demanded to be the focal point on offense, devoured large sections of the shot clock, while not playing any defense to compensate. He made them less efficient on both ends of the floor, but didn't care because he was posting his 20/10, which was all that mattered to him. Building a contender around a player like that was nigh on impossible, which is what I said. So when you have the chance to deal someone like that for a Garnett, you do it and don't think twice.



Bogg said:


> As far as Perkins goes, all he was (and still is) ever good at was post defense, and the knee injuries haven't robbed him of his ability to do that. OKC decided to hold onto him and trade away Harden largely because their primary in-conference challenger and one of the popular dark horses both feature two high-quality post scorers in their lineup.
> 
> As far as the 2011 Celtics go, Ainge letting Tony Allen walk over a third year on his contract(a decision that he doesn't catch enough heat for, btw) and Shaq's calf are what killed their title chances. If Tony Allen was around to keep Marquis Daniels' neck injury from setting off a panic, and Shaq and Perkins were splitting the time at center, the C's could have gotten past the Heat.


And at the time of the 2011 trade, _both_ Shaq & Perkins were injured, and Perkins wasn't coming back (after 2011) because Boston wasn't (wisely) going to pay him market value. People keep glossing over that fact, but the reality is that they were missing all three centers at the time of the trade. Krstic really was as big a part of the deal as cashing in Perkins for useful future pieces. I said it at the time, I wish they could have got Harden in that deal, _no matter what it took_. Unfortunately the Thunder didn't budge on that. But the trade didn't change Boston's title chances, because they weren't the same team after losing Shaq.


----------



## Bogg

E.H. Munro said:


> Yes, but he wasn't trying to win games, he demanded to be the focal point, devoured large sections of the shot clock on offense, while not playing any defense to compensate. He made them less efficient on both ends of the floor, but didn't care because he was posting his 20/10, which was all that mattered to him. Building a contender around a player like that was nigh on impossible, which is what I said. So when you have the chance to deal someone like that for a Garnett, you do it and don't think twice.


I'm not arguing that Jefferson is a franchise player or that the Garnett trade was a mistake. What I'm saying is that it was always clear that he was going to be a good starter for years to come. I thought he'd wind up a good sidekick, turns out he's a third option, but he's still very good either way.



E.H. Munro said:


> And at the time of the 2011 trade, _both_ Shaq & Perkins were injured, and Perkins wasn't coming back because Boston wasn't (wisely) going to pay him market value. People keep glossing over that fact, but the reality is that they were missing all three centers at the time of the trade. Krstic really was as big a part of the deal as cashing in Perkins for useful future pieces. I said it at the time, I wish they could have got Harden in that deal, _no matter what it took_. Unfortunately the Thunder didn't budge on that. But the trade didn't change Boston's title chances, because they weren't the same team after losing Shaq.


They wanted Krstic at the time to fill space, but he was out of the rotation by April and was more to just fill the center spot for a month and a half while guys healed than he was for minutes in the playoffs. Again, the Perkins trade didn't cost Boston a title shot because the team was already broken by the time they made it. If Perkins and Shaq were splitting the center minutes 25/20 and Tony Allen had been around to negate the Daniels injury they would have had a shot at getting past Miami(Rondo had plantar fasciitis that spring, as well, I believe). However, Perkins became a meaningless player as soon as C's fans started protesting the trade.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Bogg said:


> If Perkins and Shaq were splitting the center minutes 25/20 and Tony Allen had been around to negate the Daniels injury they would have had a shot at getting past Miami(Rondo had plantar fasciitis that spring, as well, I believe). However, Perkins became a meaningless player as soon as C's fans started protesting the trade.


The first part is a no brainer, and if Shaq hadn't been injured the trade probably wouldn't have happened. They would have happily played out the string had they been able to, but age & injuries (as well as some bad personnel decisions, such as letting Allen walk over a third year) removed that option. Even though Murphy's Law intervened destroying the trade's value (in retrospect Demps should have taken Boston's offer, because the Griffin/Bledsoe/Jordan Clippers were a lottery team and he would have got more to boot), there's still nothing to regret about it. Well, Fab Melo might be a source of regret, but that's about it.

And Perkins was meaningless _to Boston's future_ (again, what I actually said) because Boston was never tying up 40% of their cap in Rondo & Perkins. And I am _very_ happy that Boston isn't stuck with that turkey of a contract, because this team would be a 42-44 win squad with all that money tied up in Rondo/Perkins/Garnett/Pierce given the new payroll regime.


----------



## Bogg

E.H. Munro said:


> And Perkins was meaningless _to Boston's future_ (again, what I actually said) because Boston was never tying up 40% of their cap in Rondo & Perkins. And I am _very_ happy that Boston isn't stuck with that turkey of a contract, because this team would be a 42-44 win squad with all that money tied up in Rondo/Perkins/Garnett/Pierce given the new payroll regime.


.....except they're stuck paying Jeff Green more per year for an additional year, and he hasn't been any better than Perkins(setting aside the year missed for heart surgery - that wasn't his fault). You can always move a somewhat overpaid center, nobody wants that Jeff Green contract.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Bogg said:


> .....except they're stuck paying Jeff Green more per year for an additional year, and he hasn't been any better than Perkins(setting aside the year missed for heart surgery - that wasn't his fault). You can always move a somewhat overpaid center, nobody wants that Jeff Green contract.


I don't think that OKC is going to find any takers for that contract unless it's the standard "Shitty contract that has one more/one less year to run" sort of trade. Which wouldn't be what they were looking for. And, unfortunately, for cap reasons Boston couldn't sign Perkins to the deal OKC did. Their options were to extend the (then) current contract or let him go to free agency. Because the Thunder were under the cap for the following season, they (in essence) signed him to a new deal using cap space. 

Boston offered the max of what they could in extension terms, which wasn't enough. Had Perkins reached free agency he would likely have been offered more than the 4/35, and Boston would find themselves with $21-$23 million per year tied up in Perkins & Rondo, and would have had very little help coming in, no way to fill the PF role (now that Garnett's the C) short of letting Garnett go, Pierce retire and then praying that they could find the necessary players to round out the roster. It was a losing hand and they knew it.


----------



## Bogg

They're stuck with $20-$23 million a year tied up in Green and Rondo, which isn't any better, and Green's had less of an impact than Perkins has. It was clear as soon as the trade was made it was a push financially for Boston, not one that freed up a ton of flexibility, despite your insistence that Green would never get a substantial contract extension. Hell, back in April of 2011 I posted this, and it still sums up how I feel regarding this argument:



> The issue I have with that line of thought is that Krstic and Green are both in the last years of their respective deals. Even if you assume that Krstic is a rental and won't return, Jeff Green needs to get paid, and won't get much less than what Perk got. I really, really believe it's as simple as Ainge expecting that Shaq would get healthy.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Yes, but you're forgetting that with Perkins they would have $21 million tied up in the C position, with less PF depth and no backup for Pierce. Garnett just can't be the primary helpside defender anymore, it's part of being 37. Hence my comment that if they committed to Perkins they'd need Garnett to walk and Pierce to retire so that they'd have cap space to add something better than Brandon Bass as their "third star". 

Also, I'm not quite certain where the Green thing is coming from, I always said that he was going to end up being an over-MLE player. Chicago just paid similar money to Taj Gibson, a backup PF that isn't much of a center and overmatched against starting PFs. My hope then was that he'd play well enough for Boston to get something out of a sign & trade. Only as it turned out he had a bad ticker which killed that hope.


----------



## Bogg

Depth at the four wouldn't have been much different - there isn't much of a difference between (in no particular order) Bass/Sullinger/Green and Bass/Sullinger/KG-with-a-center. Depth behind Pierce wouldn't have been that much different - Green was ineffective in 2011, missed all of last year, and has been ineffective to start off this year. They wouldn't have needed anyone to walk or retire, because Green never created cap space to bring anybody in to start with. They'd have the same roster they have now, except with Perkins replacing Darko(who just left anyway) and someone like Sam Young instead of Green.


----------



## Bogg

E.H. Munro said:


> Also, I'm not quite certain where the Green thing is coming from, I always said that he was going to end up being an over-MLE player. Chicago just paid similar money to Taj Gibson, a backup PF that isn't much of a center and overmatched against starting PFs. My hope then was that he'd play well enough for Boston to get something out of a sign & trade. Only as it turned out he had a bad ticker which killed that hope.


http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-forum/456338-revisited-perkins-green.html



E.H. Munro said:


> I doubt that Green gets $7-$8 million/year. He's not a very good starting 4, and more of a roleplayer at the 3. Yeah, Charlie Eyebrows got the big bucks, but when you look at the teams with money to spend, most of them have bigger needs than swing forward. I expect that Green's next deal will look a lot more like Perkins' last one than his current one.





E.H. Munro said:


> One, who the hell is going to give a swing forward $8 million per? Do you really see any teams out there that desperate for a sixth man that they're willing to commit to double-MLE (in all likelihood) money to one? I sure as hell don't. Especially given the other forwards on the market, many of whom would be cheaper than that.





E.H. Munro said:


> Agree with each other? There's zero chance in Passaic, New Jersey that Green gets Perkins' money.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Bogg said:


> Depth at the four wouldn't have been much different - there isn't much of a difference between (in no particular order) Bass/Sullinger/Green and Bass/Sullinger/KG-with-a-center. Depth behind Pierce wouldn't have been that much different - Green was ineffective in 2011, missed all of last year, and has been ineffective to start off this year. They wouldn't have needed anyone to walk or retire, because Green never created cap space to bring anybody in to start with. They'd have the same roster they have now, except with Perkins replacing Darko(who just left anyway) and someone like Sam Young instead of Green.


It's not that Green created cap space, it's that Perkins would have tied it all up in one spot. Garnett just can't play the PF anymore and Perkins sure as heck can't. Then you need to find replacements for Green, Allen, and Terry when you have the ability to, at most, bring in two guys before having to turn around and sign vet minimum guys to round out the roster.

It was a tough spot, this is why they ended up paying that 25% premium on Green & Bass last summer. Both guys had Boston over a barrel and their agents knew it and exploited it (bound to happen in Green's case with Falk as agent). Had Green not had the heart condition it wouldn't have been an issue as they'd've dealt him last year as an expiring deal (that was the reason that they initially inked him to that 1/$9 million deal, to buy out his objections to being traded as a fifth year player). Unfortunately the new CBA prevented them from using Green in a sign & trade this past summer (because you can only sign & trade guys that were on your roster the previous year per the new CBA), so their options were literally Green/Bass or scrap heap vet min players. 

This was part of my Murphy's Law observation above about the trade, because every possible thing that could go wrong with the trade did. Green had a heart problem, Dell Demps attempted to jump start the Lakers' rebuilding program, which led to the NBA forcing Paul into the Clippers instead (when Boston's offer for CP3 turned out to have been, far and away the best one), destroying the value of the Clipper's draft pick which they'd intended as a trade asset to help them reload (and so rather than packaging a $9 million expiring deal and a low lottery pick for a roster upgrade they got Fab Melo). Then the new CBA prevented them from trading Green. But all told it's still a better spot to be in than the alternative.


----------



## Bogg

E.H. Munro said:


> It's not that Green created cap space, it's that Perkins would have tied it all up in one spot. Garnett just can't play the PF anymore and Perkins sure as heck can't. Then you need to find replacements for Green, Allen, and Terry when you have the ability to, at most, bring in two guys before having to turn around and sign vet minimum guys to round out the roster.


Green tied all the cap space up in one spot as well, while oscillating back and forth from inadequate to unavailable. Finding a replacement for Green wouldn't be a problem, he's played to the level of the journeymen available for the bi-annual or minimum. The C's subbed in Pietrus on the fly last year and got basically the same production. Terry came on for the exception, which wouldn't have been affected by Perkins anymore than it was affected by Green, and Boston replaced Allen with Courtney Lee in a sign-and-trade that wouldn't have been affected by Perkins in any way. 

This is all what I was talking about, though. It isn't enough for the C's to ultimately not have been able to win the championship in 2011 or 2012 with Perkins or Green, with Green being a higher-upside gamble that didn't pan out. It has to be that retaining Perkins would have meant the death of the franchise as we know it, with Pierce being forced to retire and Garnett signing with another team so that Boston could break the bank for some third-tier player. None of that makes any sense. You know what would have been different about last years' squad if they kept Perkins instead of trading him for Green? Perk would have filled the role that Stiemsma and Hollins did. That's it.


----------



## Jamel Irief

E.H. Munro said:


> It's not that Green created cap space, it's that Perkins would have tied it all up in one spot. Garnett just can't play the PF anymore and Perkins sure as heck can't. Then you need to find replacements for Green, Allen, and Terry when you have the ability to, at most, bring in two guys before having to turn around and sign vet minimum guys to round out the roster.
> 
> It was a tough spot, this is why they ended up paying that 25% premium on Green & Bass last summer. Both guys had Boston over a barrel and their agents knew it and exploited it (bound to happen in Green's case with Falk as agent). Had Green not had the heart condition it wouldn't have been an issue as they'd've dealt him last year as an expiring deal (that was the reason that they initially inked him to that 1/$9 million deal, to buy out his objections to being traded as a fifth year player). Unfortunately the new CBA prevented them from using Green in a sign & trade this past summer (because you can only sign & trade guys that were on your roster the previous year per the new CBA), so their options were literally Green/Bass or scrap heap vet min players.
> 
> This was part of my Murphy's Law observation above about the trade, because every possible thing that could go wrong with the trade did. Green had a heart problem, Dell Demps attempted to jump start the Lakers' rebuilding program, which led to the NBA forcing Paul into the Clippers instead (when Boston's offer for CP3 turned out to have been, far and away the best one), destroying the value of the Clipper's draft pick which they'd intended as a trade asset to help them reload (and so rather than packaging a $9 million expiring deal and a low lottery pick for a roster upgrade they got Fab Melo). Then the new CBA prevented them from trading Green. But all told it's still a better spot to be in than the alternative.


Holy crap.

You were wrong. The Perkins trade didn't help Boston in anyway and didn't have to be made.

That should be it.

Oh and please don't bring up that Okafor thing.


----------



## R-Star

Jamel Irief said:


> Holy crap.
> 
> You were wrong. The Perkins trade didn't help Boston in anyway and didn't have to be made.
> 
> That should be it.
> 
> Oh and please don't bring up that Okafor thing.


The guy won't even respond to posts in this thread that cite the fact Martin has been filling Hardens role quite well.


It's EH Munro, he's never wrong. You're wrong. And now he's going to get mad at both of us for bringing it up. Or he just won't post in here for a while, but make no mistake hes mad at you now.



I'm a drunk Canadian and you're a stupid head.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Jamel Irief said:


> You were wrong. The Perkins trade didn't help Boston in anyway and didn't have to be made.


All of Boston's centers were injured at the time they did it. They actually did need a center at the time. On top of a forward to backup Garnet & Pierce or a swingman to backup Pierce & Allen. The 2011 team didn't have a lot of bodies available come February.

Semih Erden was playing with an injured shoulder, and Nate Robinson on one knee. Delonte West, the O'Neals, Kendrick Perkins, Marquis Daniels were all out period. They had eight healthy players, two of whom were Luke Harangoody & Von Wafer. They needed to do _something_.



Jamel Irief said:


> Oh and please don't bring up that Okafor thing.


Huh? That was R-Star's thing. He decided that my saying that no one was paying $27 million for a late lottery pick meant that a player couldn't be dealt for a crappy deal with one more/less year to run (otherwise known as the going rate for shitty contracts). And when I pointed out the thread he ran back to the ten year old girl shrieking act.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Bogg said:


> Green tied all the cap space up in one spot as well, while oscillating back and forth from inadequate to unavailable. Finding a replacement for Green wouldn't be a problem, he's played to the level of the journeymen available for the bi-annual or minimum. The C's subbed in Pietrus on the fly last year and got basically the same production. Terry came on for the exception, which wouldn't have been affected by Perkins anymore than it was affected by Green, and Boston replaced Allen with Courtney Lee in a sign-and-trade that wouldn't have been affected by Perkins in any way.
> 
> This is all what I was talking about, though. It isn't enough for the C's to ultimately not have been able to win the championship in 2011 or 2012 with Perkins or Green, with Green being a higher-upside gamble that didn't pan out. It has to be that retaining Perkins would have meant the death of the franchise as we know it, with Pierce being forced to retire and Garnett signing with another team so that Boston could break the bank for some third-tier player. None of that makes any sense. You know what would have been different about last years' squad if they kept Perkins instead of trading him for Green? Perk would have filled the role that Stiemsma and Hollins did. That's it.


Retaining Perkins wasn't ever happening, though. Because Boston was never tying up that kind of money in the center position and then leaving everything else to dryrot. (And, no, there's no way that Boston could have convinced Terry that they were a contender with $57 million tied up in Pierce/Rondo/Garnett/Perkins/Bass so their upgrade would have been Lee for the MLE and Barbosa.) 

I think that everyone, especially Ainge, hates the Green deal, and praying that he plays well enough to move it. But the owners are getting ready to sell and they don't want to be selling a rebuilding squad (which is daily looking like what they should have done last summer). So they were kind of stuck as Bass & Green were the only vet PFs on the market they had access to given that they were using their MLE and penny ante deals to upgrade the backcourt.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> All of Boston's centers were injured at the time they did it. They actually did need a center at the time. On top of a forward to backup Garnet & Pierce or a swingman to backup Pierce & Allen. The 2011 team didn't have a lot of bodies available come February.
> 
> Semih Erden was playing with an injured shoulder, and Nate Robinson on one knee. Delonte West, the O'Neals, Kendrick Perkins, Marquis Daniels were all out period. They had eight healthy players, two of whom were Luke Harangoody & Von Wafer. They needed to do _something_.
> 
> 
> 
> Huh? That was R-Star's thing. He decided that my saying that no one was paying $27 million for a late lottery pick meant that a player couldn't be dealt for a crappy deal with one more/less year to run (otherwise known as the going rate for shitty contracts). And when I pointed out the thread he ran back to the ten year old girl shrieking act.


Pardon?

No ones falling for your bullshit, you pathetic old man.


----------



## Bogg

E.H. Munro said:


> Retaining Perkins wasn't ever happening, though. Because Boston was never tying up that kind of money in the center position and then leaving everything else to dryrot. (And, no, there's no way that Boston could have convinced Terry that they were a contender with $57 million tied up in Pierce/Rondo/Garnett/Perkins/Bass so their upgrade would have been Lee for the MLE and Barbosa.)
> 
> I think that everyone, especially Ainge, hates the Green deal, and praying that he plays well enough to move it. But the owners are getting ready to sell and they don't want to be selling a rebuilding squad (which is daily looking like what they should have done last summer). So they were kind of stuck as Bass & Green were the only vet PFs on the market they had access to given that they were using their MLE and penny ante deals to upgrade the backcourt.


1) Jason Terry didn't sign in Boston because Jeff Green was coming back, he signed in Boston because Pierce, KG, Rondo, and Doc were there. Jeff Green never figured into the equation. 

2) Even if the Celtics let Perkins walk for nothing, they would have had the same team last year because they were sans-Green as well, only they would have prepared better for having a player who would otherwise be an important piece of the frontcourt not around that year. 

3) The cry of "But then we wouldn't have Jeff Green!!!!" is only meaningful if Green is contributing in a positive way. Ryan Gomes could walk in off the street tomorrow and give Boston 8 and 3 on poor percentages with shaky defense if they played him 25 minutes a night. 


It's fine to argue that the reasoning for the trade was defensible at the time, or even that you think it made perfect sense. However, to continue acting as though the trade looks good in hindsight is either pure stubbornness or complete madness. The Celtics would have been no worse off with Perkins on the roster. I hope as much as anyone that Green turns it around, starts giving the C's efficient double-digit scoring combined with tough D on big 3's and small 4's, and forces me to say "That Jeff Green sure turned it around and made me look foolish, I should have given it more time before opening my mouth". To this point though, acquiring Green has been worse than _either_ letting Perkins walk or re-signing him in the summer.


----------



## e-monk

jesus christ ehm is spiralling out of control

just everybody step back


----------



## R-Star

So you're just done talking now eh EH? 

Its weird, because just a month ago you proclaimed from the roof tops that when it comes to admitting you're wrong, you're the guy.


Take this time to sit back, think, and actually become a better poster. You go around the forum picking fights, and then just quitting threads when you're wrong (if you can't derail them). 


Get better at posting. I'll say again, you're a sad old man. If I don't make this post you're sitting back and waiting for a few bad Martin games, or better yet crossing your fingers he gets injured and then popping back up.



You're a bad poster. One of the worst on the site. I want you to know that.


Oh, by the way, another solid third option role from Martin again tonight. 20 points on 60% shooting. Where is this ball hog, black hole, pass the ball into the stands Martin you spoke of? Or better question, do you ever have any idea of what you're talking about?


----------



## e-monk

nice contribution


----------



## MemphisX

Guess we are not jumping in this thread tonight...:2ti:


----------



## E.H. Munro

Just wait until we reach January and Martin goes down for his annual injury.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> So you're just done talking now eh EH?


Let's see, Kevin Martin is a worse defender than Harden, check. Kevin Martin can really only do one thing, check. Martin can't provide the Thunder with the sort of playmaking ability that they need late in close games, check. And Kevin Martin has an injury history larger than R-Star's inferiority complex. Check (approximately 75% of his teams' games played from his second year forward). 

Nope, I think that with Martin I have it pegged. Of course, as a Rockets fan I've had to put up with him for a while, and I'm glad he's gone. But, as I said way back when, as long as OKC is moving him to improve their club, the trade will work out for them. It was a hairy chested thunderer that came clomping into the thread after to declare Martin one of the best players in the NBA and a veritable iron man. While tacitly admitting that Martin's as fragile as his own erections by declaring Martin's ability to stay healthy for _ten games_ a triumph.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Bogg said:


> It's fine to argue that the reasoning for the trade was defensible at the time, or even that you think it made perfect sense. However, to continue acting as though the trade looks good in hindsight is either pure stubbornness or complete madness.


"Better than the alternative" and "good" are not synonyms, no matter what people tell you.


----------



## RollWithEm

E.H. Munro said:


> Martin's as fragile as his own erections


----------



## Jamel Irief

R-Star said:


> Pardon?
> 
> No ones falling for your bullshit, you pathetic old man.


He keeps thinking you were the one questioning him on the okafor thing, but it was dre. Previously I didn't correct him in hopes of reading an entertaining confrontation between you two.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Dre was following r-star's lead.


----------



## e-monk

btw Im just flat out astonished no one thought to bump this thread after Harden's Jordanesque performance against his old team the other night....


----------



## R-Star

e-monk said:


> btw Im just flat out astonished no one thought to bump this thread after Harden's Jordanesque performance against his old team the other night....


Well you know these guys have been quick to point out when Harden has a bad game, or KMart has a good one...


----------



## Hyperion

e-monk said:


> btw Im just flat out astonished no one thought to bump this thread after Harden's Jordanesque performance against his old team the other night....


Thabo is a damn good defender.


----------



## R-Star

Some quotes from ESPN after the first quarter of the season is done.

*Danny Chau, Hardwood Paroxysm: Thunder. There aren't enough superlatives to convey how good OKC has been on offense, thanks to improved ball movement and the addition of Kevin Martin, who has significantly bolstered their numbers from behind the 3-point line. They have the best record in the league and the longest winning streak. I think there are a few clues as to why.

James Herbert, HoopSpeak: Oklahoma City Thunder. Who thought their offense would become this much more deadly with Kevin Martin taking James Harden's minutes? Martin has scored as efficiently as expected, and it has been a pleasure to watch Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook make up for the loss of Harden's playmaking. 

Nubyjas Wilborn, Hawks Hoop: Thunder. Whoever thought these boys were going to fall off without James Harden must have forgotten how amazingly brilliant of a player Kevin Durant is. Kevin Martin has filled in rather nicely, Russell Westbrook is balling out of control and Serge Ibaka is patrolling the paint with Navy SEAL-like intensity. This team seems to have learned from its loss to Miami and wants to win it all.*

Averaging 16ppg on .464 shooting thus far and playing every game. Not the black hole chucker who should have been injured by now like many labeled him in this thread.


It's only one quarter through the season thus far, but can one or two posters please at least acknowledge that he's filling in Hardens role amazingly and hasn't underperformed like they said he would?

Why are so many posters on here afraid to ever admit to being wrong? Yes, I'm talking to you EH.


----------



## e-monk

I'm not afraid to admit that I was right


----------



## Luke

He's been much better than expected, that's for sure.


----------



## MojoPin

Kevin Martin has been injured just as much as Bynum, so I guess I'm a bit surprised R-Star doesn't consider him as injury prone. Martin will get hurt and miss his annual 20 games. There's still plenty of time left.


----------



## R-Star

MojoPin said:


> Kevin Martin has been injured just as much as Bynum, so I guess I'm a bit surprised R-Star doesn't consider him as injury prone. Martin will get hurt and miss his annual 20 games. There's still plenty of time left.


And if he doesn't, are you going to come back to the thread?


When I used to criticize Bynum, I also came back to the Lakers forum and wrote that he was proving me wrong when he stayed relatively healthy and was putting up the best big man numbers in the league outside of Howard.

I have no issue with admitting when I'm wrong.

Martin used to play a ton of minutes, take a ton more shots, and get a lot more defensive attention. To me its not crazy to think he fares a lot less chance of getting injured now that he's the third scoring option on a very talented team.


----------



## R-Star

Harden with another lights out spectacle. 5 for 20 today. 

Where is this effective scorer everyone told me about? This player who shot nearly 50% a game? Where is he? *Because Harden is shooting a 43.8% *
Where is this amazing passer? Where is the player some called "The real playmaker on the Thunder? Where is he? *Because Harden is only averaging 5apg and leading the league in turnovers.*

And where is Kevin Martin the chucker? The guy who could never fill Hardens spot on the Thunder and would take the team out of games with his chucking? Where is he? 
Oh, he probably isn't still playing, because I had multiple guarantees he'd be injured by now. Nope. Still there. Still playing and filling Hardens role just fine. 


You know, I pointed all these things out months ago and was told I don't watch basketball by a few posters. I'm not always right, but when I'm wrong, I own up to it. I'm still waiting for anyone, _anyone_ who posted in this thread against me and others to finally admit that at least up until this point, they were clearly wrong about this trade. 


Anyone?


----------



## rocketeer

R-Star said:


> Harden with another lights out spectacle. 5 for 20 today.


are you saying that 29 points on 20 shots is bad?


----------



## R-Star

rocketeer said:


> are you saying that 29 points on 20 shots is bad?


I'm saying shooting 5 for 20 is bad. 


None of his 10+ trips to the line counted as a missed shot. You understand that right? He took 20 shots, made 5 and missed 15.


----------



## Diable

Rockets won that game. They are a game over in the West and according to R-Star every player on their roster sucks. Personally I don't think they have a tremendous amount of talent either, but I don't watch them enough to have the same level of expertise on this subject that others have.


----------



## Hyperion

Hyperion said:


> Any team whose best player isn't named Lebron James is going to have a very tough time competing for the championship. Harden is still one of the top 5sg in the league. I have him right behind or tied with Gordon. did he flop in the finals both conference and nba? Yes, but he's 23 years old and averaged 17ppg on 10fga a game with 49% shooting and 39% from 3pt. Is he worth more than what the Thunder offered him? No, but to get a legit 20ppg sg that you didn't draft, you're going to have to pay a premium.
> 
> He's forced to play behind Russell "I need to shoot the most on the team because I'm the bestest" Westbrook and Durant. If he were to get the green light to shoot 20x a game, he'd probably average near 25ppg.


Snap. I was right on too.


----------



## hobojoe

R-Star said:


> Harden with another lights out spectacle. 5 for 20 today.
> 
> Where is this effective scorer everyone told me about? This player who shot nearly 50% a game? Where is he? *Because Harden is shooting a 43.8% *
> Where is this amazing passer? Where is the player some called "The real playmaker on the Thunder? Where is he? *Because Harden is only averaging 5apg and leading the league in turnovers.*
> 
> And where is Kevin Martin the chucker? The guy who could never fill Hardens spot on the Thunder and would take the team out of games with his chucking? Where is he?
> Oh, he probably isn't still playing, because I had multiple guarantees he'd be injured by now. Nope. Still there. Still playing and filling Hardens role just fine.
> 
> 
> You know, I pointed all these things out months ago and was told I don't watch basketball by a few posters. I'm not always right, but when I'm wrong, I own up to it. I'm still waiting for anyone, _anyone_ who posted in this thread against me and others to finally admit that at least up until this point, they were clearly wrong about this trade.
> 
> 
> Anyone?


You also said Houston would not be competitive, let alone make the playoffs this year.


----------



## R-Star

Diable said:


> Rockets won that game. They are a game over in the West and according to R-Star every player on their roster sucks. Personally I don't think they have a tremendous amount of talent either, but I don't watch them enough to have the same level of expertise on this subject that others have.


Feel free to quote where I said anything about the Rockets team sucking. I'm a huge Parsons fan and have been defending Lin ever since he got overhyped.


Let me guess, not posting in the thread again are you?


----------



## R-Star

hobojoe said:


> You also said Houston would not be competitive, let alone make the playoffs this year.


Playoffs are far from a lock.


----------



## hobojoe

R-Star said:


> Playoffs are far from a lock.


Agreed, especially with how they (Harden in particular) have played the last couple weeks. Just saying, they've definitely been competitive and Harden is a big reason for that.


----------



## Diable

R-Star said:


> Feel free to quote where I said anything about the Rockets team sucking. I'm a huge Parsons fan and have been defending Lin ever since he got overhyped.
> 
> 
> Let me guess, not posting in the thread again are you?


You claim that their best player sucks? You claim that Asik sucks? Is this not true? Are you claiming that McHale is Red Auerbach reincarnated or something? Or is it just that their win loss record is completely unrelated to Harden sucking? Someone needs to do some 'splainin.


----------



## Hyperion

R-Star said:


> No it wouldn't. Whoever goes for Harden wanting him as their #1 offensive star is going to at best fight for a bottom playoff spot.


Yup.


----------



## R-Star

Diable said:


> You claim that their best player sucks? You claim that Asik sucks? Is this not true? Are you claiming that McHale is Red Auerbach reincarnated or something? Or is it just that their win loss record is completely unrelated to Harden sucking? Someone needs to do some 'splainin.


So the whole Lakers team sucks because you often criticize Kobe? 

And find a post where I said Harden sucks. You can't can you? What I did say was that I don't think hes a franchise guard who can lead a team anywhere. I also said I didn't think he'd keep up his shooting percentages when he became the alpha dog. Go ahead and go back and read the posts. That's what was said. Mainly in direct response to you since you said he was better last year than Kobe Bryant.

As far as Asik, I was wrong. I thought he'd never live up to that contract, and I also think I said he wasn't a starting quality NBA center, but he's proven me wrong. Hes by no means a star, but hes been a solid addition for Houston. 


So yea, nice attempt to twist my posts to save face Diable, but no. Try again please.


----------



## R-Star

Hyperion said:


> Yup.


You're a good friend.


----------



## RollWithEm

For what it's worth, I said from the beginning that some people in this thread were being far too critical of KMart's game, and that he would fit seamlessly in with the Thunder. I also said that Harden was by far the better player for Houston to acquire. Anyone taking a look at Harden's numbers with this Rockets team and criticizing him hasn't watched many Houston games, IMO.

I've seen 35 - 40 Rockets games this year, and I can definitely say a few things about Harden.

He is an *above average passer*. His court vision is solid and his basketball instincts are sound. He's got a few major problems, though, when it comes to piling up assists. He plays a lot of minutes with Jeremy Lin - a poor catch and shoot guy from 2-pt and 3-pt range. He also plays a lot of pick-and-roll ball with one of the worst finishers at the center position in the league (Asik). I would say 20% of the nice passes I have seen Harden make to Asik have resulted in him completely fumbling the catch and not even getting it up on the rim. Also, Lin and Parsons are both willing passers. Often Harden makes a nice pass that results in another pass rather than a shot.


He is an *alpha dog*. He carries himself with the swagger of some of the greats. He is just new at this role. Give him a little time to grow.


Most importantly, though, I think the main reason for Harden's struggles is simply that he is *not in the necessary basketball shape required to play 38+ minutes a game* as his team's best player. You can see a noticeable dip in his numbers that coincides perfectly with the Rockets 8-game stretch in 12 nights where they played 7 of those on the road. His body is not ready for those types of rigors of the NBA season just yet. His shot always looks flat on the back end of a back-to-back. His ability to take his man off the dribble seems to falter during his 4th game in 5 nights. I don't think this is a product of his skill or of his potential to be great. I just think he needs to get in a little better shape for next season.


----------



## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> For what it's worth, I said from the beginning that some people in this thread were being far too critical of KMart's game, and that he would fit seamlessly in with the Thunder. I also said that Harden was by far the better player for Houston to acquire. Anyone taking a look at Harden's numbers with this Rockets team and criticizing him hasn't watched many Houston games, IMO.
> 
> I've seen 35 - 40 Rockets games this year, and I can definitely say a few things about Harden.
> 
> He is an *above average passer*. His court vision is solid and his basketball instincts are sound. He's got a few major problems, though, when it comes to piling up assists. He plays a lot of minutes with Jeremy Lin - a poor catch and shoot guy from 2-pt and 3-pt range. He also plays a lot of pick-and-roll ball with one of the worst finishers at the center position in the league (Asik). I would say 20% of the nice passes I have seen Harden make to Asik have resulted in him completely fumbling the catch and not even getting it up on the rim. Also, Lin and Parsons are both willing passers. Often Harden makes a nice pass that results in another pass rather than a shot.
> 
> 
> He is an *alpha dog*. He carries himself with the swagger of some of the greats. He is just new at this role. Give him a little time to grow.
> 
> 
> Most importantly, though, I think the main reason for Harden's struggles is simply that he is *not in the necessary basketball shape required to play 38+ minutes a game* as his team's best player. You can see a noticeable dip in his numbers that coincides perfectly with the Rockets 8-game stretch in 12 nights where they played 7 of those on the road. His body is not ready for those types of rigors of the NBA season just yet. His shot always looks flat on the back end of a back-to-back. His ability to take his man off the dribble seems to falter during his 4th game in 5 nights. I don't think this is a product of his skill or of his potential to be great. I just think he needs to get in a little better shape for next season.


No one said he wasn't an above average passer. That's exactly what I called him in my posts. Others were calling him an amazing passer who was the real set up guy on the Thunder. It just wasn't true. Harden makes some very nice passes, but also makes some reckless ones, especially when he can't get by a double team. Blaming his teammates for him leading the league in turnovers is weak. Andre Miller led the league in assists playing for a Cavs team whos best player was Lamond Murray. And his turnovers weren't even close to Hardens.

He makes a good number of bad, forced passes a game because hes a ball hog. That's his fault, not his teams.

And saying Harden isn't in basketball shape also isn't an excuse. Hes a 2 guard. If hes not in good enough shape to play the minutes given to franchise guys, that's on him, and isn't an excuse. 


Bottom line is, the Rockets are right where I predicted they'd be with Harden, fighting for a bottom playoff spot. Hardens shooting percentage nose dived, an exact quote of what I predicted. All the while the Thunder haven't missed a beat, with Kevin Martin fitting into the 3rd scorer/6th man role perfectly like I said he would.


Diable brought up how I trashed Asik and his contract all offseason and how did I reply? I replied by saying "Yep, I was sure wrong about that one." Why am I the only guy around here who acknowledges he's not infallible? Its like I'm posting on a website with a bunch of guys who think their opinions are the be all end all of basketball and they can do no wrong.


----------



## Bogg

Eh, both teams are in pretty good shape from that trade. Houston's positioned themselves as one of the front-runners in the Kevin Love sweepstakes two years from now and reinvented their team as something fun in the meantime. OKC has Kevin Martin filling Harden's old role competently and will have Lamb and Toronto's lottery pick this year(very underrated detail regarding that trade) to re-load with down the road.


----------



## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> No one said he wasn't an above average passer. That's exactly what I called him in my posts. Others were calling him an amazing passer who was the real set up guy on the Thunder. It just wasn't true. Harden makes some very nice passes, but also makes some reckless ones, especially when he can't get by a double team. *Blaming his teammates for him leading the league in turnovers is weak.* Andre Miller led the league in assists playing for a Cavs team whos best player was Lamond Murray. And his turnovers weren't even close to Hardens.


I did not do this. You are putting words in my posts. I'm merely saying that Asik is a turnover magnet. I'm not claiming that Harden isn't to blame for his turnover problems. It's easily something he can clean up, though, over the *NEXT 12 YEARS* of his time with the Rockets.



> He makes a good number of bad, forced passes a game because he's a ball hog. That's his fault, not his teams.


He is absolutely not a ball hog. He is an aggressive player whose coach and teammates want him to play aggressively because they are all better served to be complimentary players. If he gets himself a couple of decent paint finishers, you will see his assists go up and shot attempts go down almost immediately.



> And saying Harden isn't in basketball shape also isn't an excuse. Hes a 2 guard. If hes not in good enough shape to play the minutes given to franchise guys, that's on him, and isn't an excuse.


It's the truth. You can call it what you want, but he's not in good enough shape, yet. He knew what conditioning it took to be a solid 6th man before this season. Now he will know what conditioning it takes to be an alpha dog. He will come into next season in better shape to carry a team.



> Bottom line is, the Rockets are right where I predicted they'd be with Harden, fighting for a bottom playoff spot.


People thought they would be better than this? Losing Martin/Budinger/Scola/Courtney Lee??? Who in the world thought they would be better than a 7th or 8th seed? If I said that at any time, I must've been drunk. Are saying I said this?



> the Thunder haven't missed a beat, with Kevin Martin fitting into the 3rd scorer/6th man role perfectly like I said he would.


I believe I staunchly agreed with you on this point at the time of the trade.



> Why am I the only guy around here who acknowledges he's not infallible? Its like I'm posting on a website with a bunch of guys who think their opinions are the be all end all of basketball and they can do no wrong.


You're definitely aiming that comment at the wrong guy. I admit I am wrong quite often.


----------



## Luke

At the end of the day he's putting up something like 26/5/5 last time I checked as a 23 year old in his first season as the man. And his less than stellar team is competing for a playoff spot. He's not a top five player or anything, but I would say that he's had the second most impressive season at his position so far.


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----------



## Luke

Kevin Martin has been really good though. I wasn't one of the biggest haters on here but Ill be more than happy to eat my crow if he plays this way in the playoffs.


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----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> At the end of the day he's putting up something like 26/5/5 last time I checked as a 23 year old in his first season as the man. And his less than stellar team is competing for a playoff spot. He's not a top five player or anything, but I would say that he's had the second most impressive season at his position so far.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Verticalsports.com Free App


Its not really a less than impressive team. They've played just fine when he's out. Chandler Parsons is one of the more impressive up and coming 3's in the league. Lin has settled into a decent role. Asik has proven to be a reliable defender. And they have some decent role players. 

The point is his shooting percentage went way down, which most people argued it probably only drop a couple points. And he's leading the league in turnovers after being called an amazing set up man. And also the fact he isn't this amazing defender people also tried to label him as. When playing the Pacers recently Paul George completely shut him down, while on the other end Parsons had to cover George because Harden isn't even close to the best wing defender on the team. 


None of you remember saying how his offensive production would only take a small dip and that he was one of the most efficient guards in the league? No one? Luke? Diable? EH? MemphisX?
No one remembers talking up his defense? No one?
And no one remembers basically calling him an amazing floor general......who ended up leading the league in turnovers?



I'm so tire of these "Well, hes averaging 26 points a game so I wasn't really wrong......" Yea, that's great and all, but we aren't talking about how many points a game hes averaging. I've brought up multiple times what we're talking about, *and its the fact multiple posters brought up his amazing efficiency and how it would only dip a bit, his amazing passing ability, and his defense.*

And now no one wants to talk about that.


----------



## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> He is absolutely not a ball hog. He is an aggressive player whose coach and teammates want him to play aggressively because they are all better served to be complimentary players. If he gets himself a couple of decent paint finishers, you will see his assists go up and shot attempts go down almost immediately.


He most certainly is a ball hog. There were years that Stephon Marbury was one of the top assist men in the league. Want to know why? Because he always had the ball in his hands. If you're one of the tops in the league for shot attempts, trips to the line _AND_ turnovers, it means you're a ball hog. Harden absolutely dominates the ball when he plays. When hes on, it means he can have some jaw dropping games where you can't find a fault (on the offensive end). When hes cold, it completely takes away any chance of his team winning the game because he still tries to force it. 


We've seen Harden before. Hes a worse version of a prime AI or Steph. Not a bad thing, but also not amazing player I'd want as my franchise guy.


----------



## Luke

Pull up something that I said that I "don't want to talk about" I'm curious considering harden has more than exceeded my expectations this year.


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----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> Pull up something that I said that I "don't want to talk about" I'm curious considering harden has more than exceeded my expectations this year.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Verticalsports.com Free App


Did you mention the fact that he's one of the most efficient scorers in the league and you didn't think his shooting percentage would drop very much?


----------



## Luke

He was one of the most efficient scorers in the league in a complimentary role. If I remember correctly I was fairly vocal in saying that that would not be the case in Houston 


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----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> He was one of the most efficient scorers in the league in a complimentary role. If I remember correctly I was fairly vocal in saying that that would not be the case in Houston
> 
> 
> Sent from my Verticalsports.com Free App


Did you not bring it up as a plus when describing Harden, and say it would drop a bit but not much, and I argued it would nose dive seeing as he'd now be the primary focus for defensive schemes instead of being sheltered behind Durant and Westbrook?


----------



## Luke

Pretty sure 23/5/5 on 44-45% was my call. And considering the increase in volume that seems pretty fair for an offseason guess.


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----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> Pretty sure 23/5/5 on 44-45% was my call. *And considering the increase in volume that seems pretty fair for an offseason guess.*
> 
> 
> Sent from my Verticalsports.com Free App


Jesus. Just come out once and say you were off on a prediction. 


Its guys like you who make me hate posting on here at times. Why is anyone even bothering coming to the site if every single poster is correct 100% of the time?


----------



## Bogg

EVERYONE BUT R-STAR IS STUPID!


----------



## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> Why is anyone even bothering coming to the site if every single poster is correct 100% of the time?


This crusade you seem to be on to get someone to admit he is wrong could pretty much apply to all walks of life. In my line of work, no one ever admits they did anything wrong, either. Their mistake could cost their company millions of dollars and they still think they made the right decision in the moment. Rationalization is one of the things that makes us human. Deal with it.


----------



## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> This crusade you seem to be on to get someone to admit he is wrong could pretty much apply to all walks of life. In my line of work, no one ever admits they did anything wrong, either. Their mistake could cost their company millions of dollars and they still think they made the right decision in the moment. Rationalization is one of the things that makes us human. Deal with it.


Or posters could just admit when they were wrong about something. Its not hard.


----------



## Luke

Admitting I was wrong on his exact numbers? Sure, technically I was wrong I guess? I was pretty close.

This "Luke never admits when he's wrong" thin you've got going on is weird. I'm wrong all the time and I don't have a problem admitting it. Just ask me about the lakers. But in this specific case id venture to say I was close enough. Isn't he shooting like 43 percent anyways?


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----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> Admitting I was wrong on his exact numbers? Sure, technically I was wrong I guess? I was pretty close.
> 
> This "Luke never admits when he's wrong" thin you've got going on is weird. I'm wrong all the time and I don't have a problem admitting it. Just ask me about the lakers. But in this specific case id venture to say I was close enough. Isn't he shooting like 43 percent anyways?
> 
> 
> Sent from my Verticalsports.com Free App


Yea, 43%. You ventured to guess 45% earlier in the thread. Not a terrible discrepancy, but the change from an average shooter to a guy who should probably force up less shots in my opinion.


----------



## Luke

Haven't checked the numbers but I'd assume Harden's ts% is above league average considering the type of shots he's taking.

So, was I was by a percent or two, sure rstar. But harden shooting that much is necessary due to the quality of his teammates ala Kobe and the lakers post shaq and pre pau. He's still not an inefficient player.


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----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> Haven't checked the numbers but I'd assume Harden's ts% is above league average considering the type of shots he's taking.
> 
> So, was I was by a percent or two, sure rstar. But harden shooting that much is necessary due to the quality of his teammates ala Kobe and the lakers post shaq and pre pau. He's still not an inefficient player.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Verticalsports.com Free App


Kobe is being accused of chucking this year and is still shooting 46%. I don't use ts%. I don't know why the type of shots a player is taking should matter. If you're taking a lot of 3's and that drops your efficiency, why should there be a special % that takes that into account to defend you shitty shooting percentage?

If I have a guy who takes the majority of his shots driving to the paint and scores 26 points at 46%, and a guy who makes the majority of his at mid to long range and scores 26 points on 43% scoring, its pretty clear to me who the more productive scorer is.


----------



## RollWithEm

Harden is 11th in the league among swingmen in TS% this season. KMart is 3rd. Here's the top-15 list:

Ray Allen
Lebron James
*Kevin Martin*
Thabo Sefolosha
Roger Mason
J.J. Redick
Manu Ginobili
Martell Webster
Patrick Mills
Nando De Colo
*James Harden*
OJ Mayo
Kobe Bryant
Dwayne Wade
Randy Foye


----------



## Luke

That's a different conversation entirely. All ill say is that a.) spacing is imperative, b.) it takes less shots to score 23 a game taking threes than 26 taking twos using those percentages and c.) people who accuse Kobe of being a chucker (not a hero ball prone egomaniac) have been and always will be stupid.


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----------



## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> Harden is 11th in the league among swingmen in TS% this season. KMart is 3rd. Here's the top-15 list:
> 
> Ray Allen
> Lebron James
> *Kevin Martin*
> Thabo Sefolosha
> Roger Mason
> J.J. Redick
> Manu Ginobili
> Martell Webster
> Patrick Mills
> Nando De Colo
> *James Harden*
> OJ Mayo
> Kobe Bryant
> Dwayne Wade
> Randy Foye


And Ray Allen is league tops and has been playing like shit. Its why I hate TS%


----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> That's a different conversation entirely. All ill say is that a.) spacing is imperative, b.) it takes less shots to score 23 a game taking threes than 26 taking twos using those percentages and c.) people who accuse Kobe of being a chucker (not a hero ball prone egomaniac) have been and always will be stupid.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Verticalsports.com Free App


As long as you have 1 or 2 decent 3 point threats on the floor which most teams do at any given time the spacing doesn't really matter. And it may take less shots to score 23 if you're taking 3's, but they're also being shot with a much worse percentage, so more often than not its much more efficient scoring 2's. Not to mention you draw much more contact driving the lane and get to the line.


But I agree, a discussion for another thread.


----------



## Luke

It's a shooting statistic. Ray Allen is a great three point an great free throw shooter. Ts% doesn't say he's a great player, simply a great shooter. How is that not better than primitive fg%?


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----------



## R-Star

Luke said:


> It's a shooting statistic. Ray Allen is a great three point an great free throw shooter. Ts% doesn't say he's a great player, simply a great shooter. How is that not better than primitive fg%?
> 
> 
> Sent from my Verticalsports.com Free App


Hes shooting 47% on the year. That is a very good shooter, agreed. But for a stat to say "Oh, a lot of those are 3 pointers so lets up the numbers for him a bit" is asinine in my view.


----------



## Luke

But they're more difficult shots? Again, it doesn't say that player A is a better player or even scorer, but it shows that he's a more efficient scorer.


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----------



## R-Star

Harder shots meaning less efficient shots. So like I said, I'd rather a slasher type who gets me 26 on 46% shooting closer to the paint, than a shooting type who gets me 26 on 43% doing it with more midrange and 3 point shooting.


----------



## 29380

Harden had shot well until recently.


----------



## TucsonClip

Why are we bashing TS%. You do realize that TS% encompasses how well a player shoots relative to his shots and the fact that Tyson Chandler led the league in TS% last season...


----------



## R-Star

TucsonClip said:


> Why are we bashing TS%. You do realize that TS% encompasses how well a player shoots relative to his shots and the fact that Tyson Chandler led the league in TS% last season...


Or you could just go by FG%.


----------



## Bogg

Oh, this discussion again. Wonderful.


----------



## Diable

You could go back to dog sleds too. It's not our problem if math hates your haterade.


----------



## TucsonClip

R-Star said:


> Or you could just go by FG%.


Again, you do realize that TS% encompasses how well a player shoots OVERALL relative to where he shoots from.

I think you are just arguing this to argue it, because its one way to demean Harden's overall shooting percentages.


----------



## R-Star

TucsonClip said:


> Again, you do realize that TS% encompasses how well a player shoots OVERALL relative to where he shoots from.
> 
> I think you are just arguing this to argue it, because its one way to demean Harden's overall shooting percentages.


I've argued it from day one, the same way I argue that Hollinger ratings are pure bullshit as well. 


Want to know how good a shooter someone is? Look at this FG%. Oh, he shoots a lot of 3's? Look at his 3pt% then. TS% is trash. 


Egg heads always want to over complicate shit. FG% tells you effective a scorer someone is.


----------



## R-Star

Diable said:


> You could go back to dog sleds too. It's not our problem if math hates your haterade.


I'm glad you left when I brought up your "Harden is better than Kobe" comment you made last year. Back now though are you? 

You do understand my job is mainly math and chemistry correct?


I can give you a volume and displacement problem I finished about an hour ago if you'd like to give it a try.


----------



## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> FG% tells you effective a scorer someone is.


I'm sorry. It does not. You're just wrong on this one. I judge effectiveness based on efficiency. FG% is a fairly poor evaluator of efficiency.


----------



## Hyperion

R-Star said:


> Hes shooting 47% on the year. That is a very good shooter, agreed. But for a stat to say "Oh, a lot of those are 3 pointers so lets up the numbers for him a bit" is asinine in my view.


The TS% actually helps the slasher who gets the opposing team into foul trouble more than the 3pt specialist.


----------



## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> I'm sorry. It does not. You're just wrong on this one. I judge effectiveness based on efficiency. FG% is a fairly poor evaluator of efficiency.


Completely disagree. Again, if someone scores 26 points of 46% shooting but does it mainly inside the paint, and someone scores 26 points but does it at 43% shooting mainly mid range and behind the ark, you're somehow telling me the 43% shooter is more efficient? 

No.


----------



## R-Star

Hyperion said:


> The TS% actually helps the slasher who gets the opposing team into foul trouble more than the 3pt specialist.


Dependent. Guys like DeRozan don't get to the line much, so it doesn't help him all that much. Guys who get star calls like Harden and Wade? Sure.


----------



## Bogg

R-Star said:


> Completely disagree. Again, if someone scores 26 points of 46% shooting but does it mainly inside the paint, and someone scores 26 points but does it at 43% shooting mainly mid range and behind the ark, you're somehow telling me the 43% shooter is more efficient?
> 
> No.


Well, it depends on how many possessions they use. In the simplest of terms, a guy can score 26 points on 43% shooting from three using 20.1 shots. It takes 28.3 attempts to score 26 points shooting layups at a 46% clip.


----------



## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> Completely disagree. Again, if someone scores 26 points of 46% shooting but does it mainly inside the paint, and someone scores 26 points but does it at 43% shooting mainly mid range and behind the ark, you're somehow telling me the 43% shooter is more efficient?
> 
> No.


Do you even know the formula? Your argument indicates that you do not.

Point Scored / (2FGA + .88FTA)

Translation: You are more efficient if you score more but take less TOTAL shots. Meaning, if you get to the line a lot but don't make your free throws (i.e. Dwight Howard), you are not as efficient. Also meaning, if you shoot 5-for-10 and score 10 points but I shoot 5-for-10 and score 15 points, I was more efficient... unless I went to the line 15 times and shot 0-for-15. Make sense?

Your example of two players who score the same number of points but shoot a different percentage completely leaves free throws out of the equation. That's really what separates an efficiency rating from a percentage.


----------



## Hyperion

RollWithEm said:


> Do you even know the formula? Your argument indicates that you do not.
> 
> Point Scored / (2FGA + .88FTA)
> 
> Translation: You are more efficient if you score more but take less TOTAL shots. Meaning, if you get to the line a lot but don't make your free throws (i.e. Dwight Howard), you are not as efficient. Also meaning, if you shoot 5-for-10 and score 10 points but I shoot 5-for-10 and score 15 points, I was more efficient... unless I went to the line 15 times and shot 0-for-15. Make sense?
> 
> Your example of two players who score the same number of points but shoot a different percentage completely leaves free throws out of the equation. That's really what separates an efficiency rating from a percentage.


It's actually 

Points/(FGA + 0.44*FTA)

Why isn't a FTA worth 0.5 of a FGA? It's worth less so that the % gets inflated.


----------



## RollWithEm

Hyperion said:


> It's actually
> 
> Points/(FGA + 0.44*FTA)
> 
> Why isn't a FTA worth 0.5 of a FGA? It's worth less so that the % gets inflated.


Problem 1: The formula I posted is correct. Source 1, Source 2, Source 3

Problem 2: Making the multiplier less makes overall scoring slightly more valuable because it's in the denominator.


----------



## Hyperion

RollWithEm said:


> Problem 1: The formula I posted is correct. Source 1, Source 2, Source 3
> 
> Problem 2: Making the multiplier less makes overall scoring slightly more valuable because it's in the denominator.


You are correct I point one. I misread the formula on basketball-reference. 

However, the average person in the NBA shoots >70% from the line. 0.88 of 10 FTAs is 8.8. If a player makes 7/10 FTs, then he is rewarded with 7/8.8 or 80% TS%.


----------



## TucsonClip

I just dont understand, for the life of me, how someone can argue that FG% is more relevant than TS%.

You can argue PER all you want, I have no problem with that. However, TS% and other advanced stats like reb%, ast%, ect are pure mathematics that make perfect sense. Again, you are arguing TS% for arguments sake to support your opinions.


----------



## RollWithEm

Hyperion said:


> 0.88 of 10 FTAs is 8.8. If a player makes 7/10 FTs, then he is rewarded with 7/8.8 or 80% TS%.


You are correct. This is why calling True Shooting Percentage a "percentage" is a bit of a misnomer. If you shot 10-for-10 from the line, your true shooting percentage would be over 100. It's more of a relative assessment of shooting efficiency than it is a percentage. That doesn't devalue it, though. It's merely a question of perception.


----------



## Diable

TucsonClip said:


> I just dont understand, for the life of me, how someone can argue that FG% is more relevant than TS%.
> 
> You can argue PER all you want, I have no problem with that. However, TS% and other advanced stats like reb%, ast%, ect are pure mathematics that make perfect sense. Again, you are arguing TS% for arguments sake to support your opinions.


It's very simply because TS% is inconveniently in favor of James Harden.


----------



## hobojoe

R-Star, you're also harping on this 43% shooting figure. We're still just halfway through the season, the 43% figure was just under 47% a week ago before this shooting slump. It'll happen over the course of the season as the number one option. He's been reasonably efficient, obviously not as efficient as the 3rd option sixth man as you said would happen, but he's not exactly Iversoning it out there every night.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Diable said:


> It's very simply because TS% is inconveniently in favor of James Harden.


Are there stats that show that harden is better than Kobe?


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----------



## R-Star

Diable said:


> It's very simply because TS% is inconveniently in favor of James Harden.


Hey look, its Diable popping into the thread to say "Yea good point! Me too!" then disappearing. 


Talk about how Harden was better than Kobe last year. Or how Harden is such an amazing passer and defender.....


----------



## R-Star

hobojoe said:


> R-Star, you're also harping on this 43% shooting figure. We're still just halfway through the season, the 43% figure was just under 47% a week ago before this shooting slump. It'll happen over the course of the season as the number one option. He's been reasonably efficient, obviously not as efficient as the 3rd option sixth man as you said would happen, but he's not exactly Iversoning it out there every night.


Slumps happen though. He went through a hot streak, and then slumped. Which would lead to believe what his shooting percentage is at now will be around his average.


----------



## R-Star

TucsonClip said:


> I just dont understand, for the life of me, how someone can argue that FG% is more relevant than TS%.
> 
> You can argue PER all you want, I have no problem with that. However, TS% and other advanced stats like reb%, ast%, ect are pure mathematics that make perfect sense. Again, you are arguing TS% for arguments sake to support your opinions.


Show me a math book that shows how X shot on a basketball court is better than shot Y, and how percentages should be skewed to relate to that.

I'm arguing TS% because I don't agree with it. If you shoot a 43 FG% from the field, then you shoot 43% from the field. It doesn't matter to me where you shoot it from.


Obviously many disagree on that though and I'm in the minority here.


----------



## Diable

R-Star said:


> Hey look, its Diable popping into the thread to say "Yea good point! Me too!" then disappearing.
> 
> 
> Talk about how Harden was better than Kobe last year. Or how Harden is such an amazing passer and defender.....


Count up the games Kobe has won for his team this year. Count up the games Harden has won for his. Is Kobe really helping his team more than Harden is? If so, then where is the evidence of it. I don't see it in the win loss record. I don't think Kobe is without help, he has plenty of scapegoats and plenty of losses as well.

If you're going to claim that Harden is barely good enough to lead his team to the 8th seed, then you better think about that when you go on the rag about him and Kobe.


----------



## R-Star

Diable said:


> Count up the games Kobe has won for his team this year. Count up the games Harden has won for his. Is Kobe really helping his team more than Harden is? If so, then where is the evidence of it. I don't see it in the win loss record. I don't think Kobe is without help, he has plenty of scapegoats and plenty of losses as well.
> 
> If you're going to claim that Harden is barely good enough to lead his team to the 8th seed, then you better think about that when you go on the rag about him and Kobe.


I'm sorry, but wasn't the argument about last year, and not this year?

You said last year that Harden was clearly already better than Kobe, did you not?

The only thing I've said about Harden is I don't see him as a franchise guy, and that I think he's a ball hog. Only one of those can be said about Kobe.


----------



## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> If you shoot a 43 FG% from the field, then you shoot 43% from the field. It doesn't matter to me where you shoot it from.


Very wrong. 43% on 100 attempts from 18 feet is worth 43 points less than 43% on 100 attempts from 23 feet.


----------



## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> Very wrong. 43% on 100 attempts from 18 feet is worth 43 points less than 43% on 100 attempts from 23 feet.


We're comparing FG%, not FG% and 3pt%


Not to mention the guy playing 18 feet and in will get a ton more foul shots on that 43%.


----------



## e-monk

R-Star said:


> If you shoot a 43 FG% from the field, then you shoot 43% from the field. It doesn't matter to me where you shoot it from.


dude you're usually ok in my book but this really is a dumb thing to say

if I take 100 shots from inside the arc and make 43% I get 86 points for my effort, if I do the same outside the arc I get 129 points - that's pretty black and white


----------



## e-monk

R-Star said:


> We're comparing FG%, not FG% and 3pt%
> 
> 
> Not to mention the guy playing 18 feet and in will get a ton more foul shots on that 43%.


3p% is part of fg% - 3p% is just a subset but fg% is figured as a total of all shots attempted including treys

and there's no reason why someone is going to get more fouled at 18' than at 23' and even so the difference in made FTAs would have to be 'Dwyane Wade in games 5 and 6 of the finals in 2006' to offset the extra points from made threes


----------



## R-Star

e-monk said:


> 3p% is part of fg% - 3p% is just a subset but fg% is figured as a total of all shots attempted including treys
> 
> *and there's no reason why someone is going to get more fouled at 18' than at 23'* and even so the difference in made FTAs would have to be 'Dwyane Wade in games 5 and 6 of the finals in 2006' to offset the extra points from made threes


Jesus.......

I understand 3pt% is part of FG%, that's why I judge purely by FG%.

You get fouled way more the closer you move to the paint. And trying to use 100 shots per game is asinine. The top 3 point shooters in this league make 3 3 point shots a game. So for a slasher to make up for that, he'd have to get to the line 2 times. Twice. Think about that for a second. And that's under the assumption the 3 point shooter is even shooting at the same percentage as the guy taking his shots closer to the paint, which of course odds say he's not going to.


----------



## TucsonClip

R-Star said:


> Show me a math book that shows how X shot on a basketball court is better than shot Y, and how percentages should be skewed to relate to that.
> 
> I'm arguing TS% because I don't agree with it. If you shoot a 43 FG% from the field, then you shoot 43% from the field. It doesn't matter to me where you shoot it from.
> 
> 
> Obviously many disagree on that though and I'm in the minority here.


What? That post makes absolutely no sense! This is what im talking about. Its one thing if you dont understand what TS% is. its another to make a comment like that. Its simple math. 3s are worth more than 2s. Free throws are easier than nearly all shots outside 5ft. 

I understand what you are saying, but 43% from the field is NOT equal to just shooting jumpers or scoring at the rim. You take 100 shots from 3 and hit 43% and you score more points than if you did by making 43/100 from 2. Again, simple math. I dont think you need a math book for that.


----------



## TucsonClip

RollWithEm said:


> Very wrong. 43% on 100 attempts from 18 feet is worth 43 points less than 43% on 100 attempts from 23 feet.


Exactly. I dont understand why this is such a difficult concept to comprehend...


----------



## TucsonClip

R-Star said:


> Jesus.......
> 
> I understand 3pt% is part of FG%, that's why I judge purely by FG%.
> 
> You get fouled way more the closer you move to the paint. And trying to use 100 shots per game is asinine. The top 3 point shooters in this league make 3 3 point shots a game. So for a slasher to make up for that, he'd have to get to the line 2 times. Twice. Think about that for a second. And that's under the assumption the 3 point shooter is even shooting at the same percentage as the guy taking his shots closer to the paint, which of course odds say he's not going to.


Again, arguing just for arguments sake. You are really tying to make this difficult, because you want to be stubborn about this.

Nobody is saying anyone is taking 100 3s per game. Again, THAT is simple math. you do realize that a lot of stats are based out of 100 in order to build a rational ratio/percentage?


----------



## R-Star

TucsonClip said:


> What? That post makes absolutely no sense! This is what im talking about. Its one thing if you dont understand what TS% is. its another to make a comment like that. Its simple math. 3s are worth more than 2s. * Free throws are easier than nearly all shots outside 5ft. *
> 
> I understand what you are saying, but 43% from the field is NOT equal to just shooting jumpers or scoring at the rim. You take 100 shots from 3 and hit 43% and you score more points than if you did by making 43/100 from 2. Again, simple math. I dont think you need a math book for that.


So? How does that have anything to do with who efficient someone scores?

Free throws are easy so they don't really count anymore? Because TS% is math?


No. I've always laughed when people try to math up sports. You can do percentages, you can do probability, but in reality you can't calculate a game like basketball. Shooters get hot, shooters get cold, players have break out years, or their games fall off, etc. There's no mathematical equation for luck. There's no mathematical equation for playing in an easier division. There's no mathematical equation for getting guarded by Lance Stephenson, instead of getting locked down by Paul George. 


FG% is what I judge a players scoring ability on. If a guy scores 20 in a game on 46% and goes to the line a lot because he drives, I value that over a guy who shoots 43% on those 20 points, but shoots a lot from outside. 

You guys keep talking over and over about how amazing 3 pointers are, and I mentioned the top 3 point shooters in the league make 3 a game. Which would be 3 more points for a slasher to make at the line. Not tough.


----------



## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> You guys keep talking over and over about how amazing 3 pointers are, and I mentioned the top 3 point shooters in the league make 3 a game. Which would be 3 more points for a slasher to make at the line. Not tough.


Who is saying this? Where are you reading these people talking about how amazing 3-pointers are? Are you reading a thread on another message board in between visits to this thread?

It's simple math. 

James Harden shoots 43% from the field with 17.8 FGA each game and averages 25.9 PPG. Kyrie Irving shoots 47% from the field with 18.6 FGA each game and averages 23.7 PPG. Wait what? Irving shoots more and shoots a better percentage but averages less points? How can this be in R-Star world? Isn't Irving the more efficient scorer because his FG% is higher? If so, how could he possibly score less with more attempts??? 

Oh wait... Harden gets to the line more often and shoots a better percentage once he gets there... therefore he has a better TS%. Oh look! It has virtually nothing to do with who shoots more threes because TS% is about much more than just threes. The more efficient scorer scores more with less attempts. Plain and simple.


----------



## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> Who is saying this? Where are you reading these people talking about how amazing 3-pointers are? Are you reading a thread on another message board in between visits to this thread?
> 
> It's simple math.
> 
> James Harden shoots 43% from the field with 17.8 FGA each game and averages 25.9 PPG. Kyrie Irving shoots 47% from the field with 18.6 FGA each game and averages 23.7 PPG. Wait what? Irving shoots more and shoots a better percentage but averages less points? How can this be in R-Star world? Isn't Irving the more efficient scorer because his FG% is higher? If so, how could he possibly score less with more attempts???
> 
> Oh wait... Harden gets to the line more often and shoots a better percentage once he gets there... therefore he has a better TS%. Oh look! It has virtually nothing to do with who shoots more threes because TS% is about much more than just threes. The more efficient scorer scores more with less attempts. Plain and simple.


Its actually the fact that Harden gets to the line 5 more times a game, if you'd like to look. Which in fact would mean Harden scores at a worse rate, but gets more points at the line.


----------



## TucsonClip

R-Star said:


> So? How does that have anything to do with who efficient someone scores?
> 
> Free throws are easy so they don't really count anymore? Because TS% is math?


You are completely missing the point, again.

Its a risk/reward assessment. Thats all it is. TS% measure shooting efficiency. Its basic, simple, straight to the point. Its not hard to understand it or why is it valuable, yet you continue to argue how pointless it is.

As far as the free throw comment, thats not even what im talking about. Im talking about a players entire shooting basis defined as TS%. Free throws are easier to make, just like dunks are easier to make than 14 foot jumpers. The point is they are all combined to show how efficient a player is in his shooting. Thats it.

There is nothing to spin.



> No. I've always laughed when people try to math up sports. You can do percentages, you can do probability, but in reality you can't calculate a game like basketball. Shooters get hot, shooters get cold, players have break out years, or their games fall off, etc. There's no mathematical equation for luck. There's no mathematical equation for playing in an easier division. There's no mathematical equation for getting guarded by Lance Stephenson, instead of getting locked down by Paul George.


You must HATE baseball then. I would imagine you hate to watch it, knowing full on that there are going to be tons of statistics that come up measuring how well a player is performing. Especially one like on-base percentage or slugging percentage. Your mind must explode, wondering why nobody is talking about batting average.



> FG% is what I judge a players scoring ability on. If a guy scores 20 in a game on 46% and goes to the line a lot because he drives, I value that over a guy who shoots 43% on those 20 points, but shoots a lot from outside.
> 
> You guys keep talking over and over about how amazing 3 pointers are, and I mentioned the top 3 point shooters in the league make 3 a game. Which would be 3 more points for a slasher to make at the line. Not tough.


What about a guy who can knockdown a bunch of threes but also gets fouled a lot on jumpers and shoots well at the line, you know like Dirk? The point is how efficient a player shoots OVERALL. Not how many 3s a guy can attempt in order to outscore a guy who drives on every shot attempt.


----------



## R-Star

TucsonClip said:


> You are completely missing the point, again.
> 
> Its a risk/reward assessment. Thats all it is. TS% measure shooting efficiency. Its basic, simple, straight to the point. Its not hard to understand it or why is it valuable, yet you continue to argue how pointless it is.
> 
> As far as the free throw comment, thats not even what im talking about. Im talking about a players entire shooting basis defined as TS%. Free throws are easier to make, just like dunks are easier to make than 14 foot jumpers. The point is they are all combined to show how efficient a player is in his shooting. Thats it.
> 
> There is nothing to spin.
> 
> 
> 
> You must HATE baseball then. I would imagine you hate to watch it, knowing full on that there are going to be tons of statistics that come up measuring how well a player is performing. Especially one like on-base percentage or slugging percentage. Your mind must explode, wondering why nobody is talking about batting average.
> 
> 
> 
> What about a guy who can knockdown a bunch of threes but also gets fouled a lot on jumpers and shoots well at the line, you know like Dirk? The point is how efficient a player shoots OVERALL. Not how many 3s a guy can attempt in order to outscore a guy who drives on every shot attempt.


I do hate baseball. But trying to say "Well they do it in baseball!" isn't an argument. Baseball isn't basketball. Players don't stand around all game long. Its the worst sport in the world. But again, ties into me laughing and mentioning money ball earlier. 

And as far as the Dirk comment, just go look which players are top in the league at FTA's. Anyone trying to argue that guys get to the line just as much playing perimeter play as guys who drive the basket are lying to themselves. 


Again as I said earlier, we obviously don't agree here. Most people don't agree with me on this. I'm fine with that. No one needs to try to change my opinion.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Diable said:


> It's very simply because TS% is inconveniently in favor of James Harden.


So remember when you said this?



Diable said:


> Kobe is like 80th in the NBA in field goal percentage. Among qualified players. Among all players in the NBA he's dead in the middle, about 230th. There's not enough BS in the world to make that go away.


http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-forum/467835-top-15-nba-players-season.html#post6816238

Diable likes FG% when it hurts Kobe. Diable only looks at TS% when FG% favors Kobe.

Just admit you have an agenda here and I'll shut up. Instead you probably won't post in this thread again unless its 30 posts later to take a cheap one-line pot shot at R-star.


----------



## Diable

Damn Jamel. Your reading comprehension sucks. Not surprising given how desperately you need to troll. Go look up where Kobe ranked in TS% at that point and see how ****ing smart you feel. It ain't going to suit you agenda.


----------



## R-Star

Diable said:


> Damn Jamel. Your reading comprehension sucks. Not surprising given how desperately you need to troll. Go look up where Kobe ranked in TS% at that point and see how ****ing smart you feel. It ain't going to suit you agenda.


Are you ever going to respond to saying Harden was easily better than Kobe last year? Or are you just going to keep dodging it? Its been almost a year and it just shuts you right up every single time.


----------



## PauloCatarino

R-Star said:


> Are you ever going to respond to saying Harden was easily better than Kobe last year? Or are you just going to keep dodging it? Its been almost a year and it just shuts you right up every single time.


Personally, i've never taken Diable seriously after THAT post.
Untill he adresses it i will be, like, why the **** am i reading you if you don't even stand for what you say? F!


----------



## Jamel Irief

Diable said:


> Damn Jamel. Your reading comprehension sucks. Not surprising given how desperately you need to troll. Go look up where Kobe ranked in TS% at that point and see how ****ing smart you feel. It ain't going to suit you agenda.


Not relevant. You were the one claiming FG% was highly relevant in April. Your words, not mine. Now that it debunks your "harden is easily better than Kobe" claim you want to only look at ts%. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Diable

Jamel Irief said:


> Not relevant. You were the one claiming FG% was highly relevant in April. Your words, not mine. Now that it debunks your "harden is easily better than Kobe" claim you want to only look at ts%.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


You are clearly reading that...where?.Kobe was shooting 29% on three pointers at that point. Wasn't he? I believe he was also among the league leaders in 3pters attempted in spite of the brickage. Relatively speaking his TS% was lower than his Field Goal %,...which is why I didn't bother mentioning it. It went without saying that his TS% was terrible. Everyone knew this shit any way. You're not this dense Jamel. You know damned well you ****ed that up. You're so desperate to carry this torch that you shot yourself in the foot with your own big mouth.


----------



## R-Star

So we aren't talking about your comment last year?


----------



## Jamel Irief

Diable said:


> You are clearly reading that...where?.Kobe was shooting 29% on three pointers at that point. Wasn't he? I believe he was also among the league leaders in 3pters attempted in spite of the brickage. Relatively speaking his TS% was lower than his Field Goal %,...which is why I didn't bother mentioning it. It went without saying that his TS% was terrible. Everyone knew this shit any way. You're not this dense Jamel. You know damned well you ****ed that up. You're so desperate to carry this torch that you shot yourself in the foot with your own big mouth.


Again here are your EXACT WORDS.



> Kobe is like 80th in the NBA in field goal percentage. Among qualified players. Among all players in the NBA he's dead in the middle, about 230th. There's not enough BS in the world to make that go away.


So let me ask you, where does Harden currently rank amongst players in FG%? Is there any amount of BS that will make Harden's FG% go away?

Or are you going to claim that when someone defends Kobes FG% its BS, but when they defend on Hardens FG% its valid?

And then you give R-star a hard time for wanting to ignore his TS% and focus on his FG%?

It's also laughable that you are informing me of Kobe's % numbers last year and claiming I "****ed it up by not knowing." In ten minutes I can show 15 different posts I made bitching about his jacking. 

The fact still is that hardens fg% is the same as what you mocked Kobe for. No bs will make that go away.


----------



## Jamel Irief

R-Star said:


> So we aren't talking about your comment last year?


I'm shocked that he's defending his statements. Don't think I've seen this from the diable before. Respect. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## TucsonClip

R-Star said:


> I do hate baseball. But trying to say "Well they do it in baseball!" isn't an argument. Baseball isn't basketball. Players don't stand around all game long. Its the worst sport in the world. But again, ties into me laughing and mentioning money ball earlier.


You missed my point there too then. That wasnt my point nor was it my argument. I give up, this is mind numbing


----------



## Jamel Irief

Is there anybody under the age of 80 who doesn't hate baseball? It's chess in the sun. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> Its actually the fact that Harden gets to the line 5 more times a game, if you'd like to look. Which in fact would mean *Harden scores at a worse rate*, but gets more points at the line.


I agree 100% with everything not bolded. What do all of the unbolded parts of your post along with all of my posts add up to???

Harden scores at a _BETTER_ rate... where better means more efficient.


----------



## RollWithEm

Is James Harden the best driver in the NBA?



> Harden averages nine drives per game, which is fourth among players whose teams have the cameras. The top four: Tony Parker (10.8), Rajon Rondo (10.1), Russell Westbrook (9.3), and Jrue Holiday (9.2). As an aside, that Holiday number is a fantastically good sign for Philly. He ranked below average by this metric last season, and he’s piling up about twice as many drives per game this season, according to the 2011-12 data I’ve reviewed. Philly is still below average as a team in drives per game, which tells you how much heavy lifting Holiday is doing for a very limited bunch.
> 
> Back to Harden: Houston is scoring 1.51 points per possession on trips in which he drives at any time in the shot clock. That is easily the highest mark among all players in the 15-team database with more than a token number of drives. It is a mammoth number; keep in mind, teams average just about one point per possession overall. Harden has drawn a foul on one-third of his drives, which is among the highest numbers in the data set, and sort of amazing when you think about it.
> 
> He has turned over the ball on just 4 percent of his drives, one of the lowest numbers in the data set. The dude is scary. These numbers paint him as even more valuable than we might think.


Just some more interesting data that confirms everything I have seen out of him this season.


----------



## MemphisX

Can't wait for the playoffs when KMart falls flat on his face...


----------



## ChrisWoj

Jamel Irief said:


> Is there anybody under the age of 80 who doesn't hate baseball? It's chess in the sun.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Chess in the sun? Have you met the NFL? A 3+ hour sport that involves a ball actually in play and moving for approximately 15 total minutes in all of that time. Its just that every time a move is made - its really ****ing loud and fast. Its awesome, and seriously FAR closer to chess than baseball ever could be.

I love all the major sports. Baseball... its tough to parallel it to a board game... Hmm.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Jamel Irief said:


> So remember when you said this?
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-forum/467835-top-15-nba-players-season.html#post6816238
> 
> Diable likes FG% when it hurts Kobe. Diable only looks at TS% when FG% favors Kobe.
> 
> Just admit you have an agenda here and I'll shut up. Instead you probably won't post in this thread again unless its 30 posts later to take a cheap one-line pot shot at R-star.


In fairness amongst all NBA players last year Bryant was 186th in TS% and 230th in eFG% (Harden was 6th & 20th respectively).


----------



## MemphisX

MemphisX said:


> Can't wait for the playoffs when KMart falls flat on his face...










And so it was written...


----------



## E.H. Munro

Hey, man, Martin is scoring 11.4 p/g on an eFG% of .384 while averaging .898 points per possession! Those are Rodmanesque numbers!


----------



## Sir Patchwork

He has been dreadful. He is losing money every stinker of a game he plays.


----------



## Dee-Zy

I'm just surprised that a lot of people didn't see that coming. I didn't think he was good at all this year. Didn't expect him to go crazy in the playoffs. I thought with Russ out, he would get his groove back because he seems to be a rhythm scorer but that didn't happen either...


----------



## e-monk

what a difference a day makes


----------



## OneBadLT123

This next series though, he's toast. Houston was one of the worst defensive teams in the league.


----------



## Dee-Zy

Let's see if he can keep it up or he just has one game like that per round.


----------



## MemphisX

When this trade happened, I said the Grizz liked it. Now we will see...


----------



## e-monk

when the trade happened did you say the Grizzlies liked Westbrook being injured?


----------



## Diable

I'm pretty sure the Grizzlies would have liked that if they had known. It sure as hell levels the playing field for everyone in the West.


----------



## e-monk

well of course and that will have more of a role in any hypothetical Memphis victory - sure Martin could totally crap out a Harden-in-the-finals like performance but hell, what do you know? Harden can do that too


----------



## Jamel Irief

e-monk said:


> when the trade happened did you say the Grizzlies liked Westbrook being injured?


To give myself credit, when Westbrook got hurt I did say the Grizz would like it.

They would be ecstatic if Lebron and Tony Parker get in car accidents too.


----------



## E.H. Munro

e-monk said:


> well of course and that will have more of a role in any hypothetical Memphis victory - sure Martin could totally crap out a Harden-in-the-finals like performance but hell, what do you know? Harden can do that too


Martin already has. And I don't see that changing any time soon. The Thunder are going as far as Durant and Reggie Jackson can take them. And that has to scare the bejesus out of them (and I say that as a huge Reggie Jackson fan, I'm still pissed that the OKC peached him from Boston).


----------



## e-monk

well of course the Thunder are only going as far as Durant will take them, that's astute on your part - him being the team's best player and all

but it wasnt Martin shooting 6 of 22 in that last game


----------



## JBKB

e-monk said:


> well of course the Thunder are only going as far as Durant will take them, that's astute on your part - him being the team's best player and all


SHHHH!!! Don't let IRVING read this. He'll get angry and say something like *"NO E-MONK... Actually the Thunder are only going to go as far as Scott Brooks will take them."*


----------



## e-monk

tell that to Chris Paul


----------



## e-monk

ahem...


----------



## XxIrvingxX

JBKB said:


> SHHHH!!! Don't let IRVING read this. He'll get angry and say something like *"NO E-MONK... Actually the Thunder are only going to go as far as Scott Brooks will take them."*


Even when it comes to trying to be clever in a sarcastic tone you still fail miserably. Care to explain why I would say something even as remotely close to being as stupid as the things you say such as that?


----------



## MemphisX

Kevin Martin?????


----------



## e-monk

what about him? Russell Westbrook?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Kevin Martin lost himself a lot of money in the past two weeks.


----------



## R-Star

Sir Patchwork said:


> Kevin Martin lost himself a lot of money in the past two weeks.


Not really, since he has almost identical stats in the playoffs as he did in the regular season.

Hes a quality third option player. I don't think any GM ever viewed him as more than that.


----------



## Bogg

Yea, but you want your third option to be able to step up as an emergency #2 for stretches in case of injury (exactly like what just happened). Kevin Martin solidified himself as a useful bench player, but nothing more, over the last few weeks.


----------



## E.H. Munro

e-monk said:


> what about him? Russell Westbrook?


True, once Westbrook went down Reggie Jackson became the Thunder's second option, because future first ballot hall-of-famer Kevin Martin still sucks. And Durant just isn't good enough to carry a squad on his own. 

At the time I gave Presti an incomplete, because I figured that with a team on the brink that he just had to make a move to convert those assets into a player that would put the Thunder over the top. Instead what they've got out of the deal is the right to overpay Kevin Martin and a mid first round pick in the worst draft since 2000. As a Rockets fan I'm ecstatic. Thunder fans have to be sick.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> Yea, but you want your third option to be able to step up as an emergency #2 for stretches in case of injury (exactly like what just happened). Kevin Martin solidified himself as a useful bench player, but nothing more, over the last few weeks.


Meh, that really depends. Perkins couldn't step up. Ibaka couldn't step up. Reggie Jackson, who is I guess the defacto guy to get overrated this offseason, didn't really step up either.

So by those standard, I guess they are all useful bench players as well.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> True, once Westbrook went down Reggie Jackson became the Thunder's second option, because future first ballot hall-of-famer Kevin Martin still sucks. And Durant just isn't good enough to carry a squad on his own.
> 
> At the time I gave Presti an incomplete, because I figured that with a team on the brink that he just had to make a move to convert those assets into a player that would put the Thunder over the top. Instead what they've got out of the deal is the right to overpay Kevin Martin and a mid first round pick in the worst draft since 2000. As a Rockets fan I'm ecstatic. Thunder fans have to be sick.


ha............. I'm glad after 1 season you've decided it to be the worst draft in over a decade.

Jeremy Lamb is anything but a throw in that you just tried to write him off as.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

E.H. Munro said:


> Thunder fans have to be sick.


I'm really not that distraught. Harden would have been great to have with Westbrook out, but paying Harden 16 million per year to take 12 shots per game and score 18ppg doesn't excite me too much. Harden having a breakout year as a #1 option would have never happened in OKC. In fact, had we paid him as much as he wanted, people _still_ wouldn't know how good he is and Presti would probably be getting criticized for paying him too much. Lose-lose. 

I mean, people on this site gave Diable absolute hell for saying Harden was better than Kobe, and when given the opportunity to play the role, Harden had a similar season statistically and led his less talented team to a better record. These are not things that would have become evident while he was waiting in line behind Durant and Westbrook for shot attempts while not giving you much else. 

I will be disappointed if none of the assets we received in return materialize into anything, but I just don't think Harden is the right fit for this team unless we assume a major injury. If there was a mistake made, it was choosing Westbrook over Harden as your superstar scoring guard.


----------



## Floods

R-Star said:


> ha............. I'm glad after 1 season you've decided it to be the worst draft in over a decade.
> 
> Jeremy Lamb is anything but a throw in that you just tried to write him off as.


I think EH is talking about this coming draft.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> Meh, that really depends. Perkins couldn't step up. Ibaka couldn't step up. Reggie Jackson, who is I guess the defacto guy to get overrated this offseason, didn't really step up either.
> 
> So by those standard, I guess they are all useful bench players as well.


Let's see, the second year guard put up the following numbers as an emergency starter:

15.3/5.6/4.8 eFG%.519 TS%.571

If only he could have matched Kevin Martin's .446 shooting and inefficient scoring the Thunder might have had a chance...


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> ha............. I'm glad after 1 season you've decided it to be the worst draft in over a decade.


After one season? The 2013 draft hasn't even taken place yet.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Sir Patchwork said:


> I'm really not that distraught. Harden would have been great to have with Westbrook out, but paying Harden 16 million per year to take 12 shots per game and score 18ppg doesn't excite me too much. Harden having a breakout year as a #1 option would have never happened in OKC. In fact, had we paid him as much as he wanted, people _still_ wouldn't know how good he is and Presti would probably be getting criticized for paying him too much. Lose-lose.
> 
> I mean, people on this site gave Diable absolute hell for saying Harden was better than Kobe, and when given the opportunity to play the role, Harden had a similar season statistically and led his less talented team to a better record. These are not things that would have become evident while he was waiting in line behind Durant and Westbrook for shot attempts while not giving you much else.


No, I understood all that at the time. I didn't object to the Thunder dealing Harden, and not even in the deal they made, assuming that it was a placekeeper (i.e. just getting the deal out of the way so that they could convert those assets into a player to put them over the top down the line). But Presti bet the house on the Raptors finishing in the bottom 5 and enough players entering the draft so that he could replace Harden. Terrible bet. That's like the guy in debt up to his eyeballs staking his future on a turn at the roulette wheel.


----------



## Bogg

Sir Patchwork said:


> I'm really not that distraught. Harden would have been great to have with Westbrook out, but paying Harden 16 million per year to take 12 shots per game and score 18ppg doesn't excite me too much. Harden having a breakout year as a #1 option would have never happened in OKC. In fact, had we paid him as much as he wanted, people _still_ wouldn't know how good he is and Presti would probably be getting criticized for paying him too much. Lose-lose.


Harden would have either won his second consecutive 6MOY award, received an increased role in the offense and taken Ibaka's spot as OKC's third all-star, or both. Not to mention that he would have gotten handed Westbrook's share of the offense when Westbrook when down this postseason. OKC would have had no problem finding a market for Harden this offseason in a sign-and-trade. Just off the top of my head, Boston and Utah would both have been able to put together attractive offers. 



R-Star said:


> Meh, that really depends. Perkins couldn't step up. Ibaka couldn't step up. Reggie Jackson, who is I guess the defacto guy to get overrated this offseason, didn't really step up either.
> 
> So by those standard, I guess they are all useful bench players as well.


Ibaka's a solid starter, he just isn't the star that he's sometimes been billed as. Other than that, yea, Jackson and Perkins are good guys to have on your bench. I don't think anyone expected Perk to pick up the slack on offense (although he was admittedly disappointing on defense).

EDIT: In reality, I'm just mad that Ainge can't turn Pierce/Bradley/JET/16th/2015 protected first into Harden/Perkins this summer


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> After one season? The 2013 draft hasn't even taken place yet.


Oh, so better yet, when talking about the Harden trade you aren't even going to mention Lamb..... that makes a ton of sense.


Oh well. Look old man, I'm not spending time posting with jackasses like you anymore. Its probably a fun break from your rocking chair and yelling at kids getting near your lawn, but I'm not doing it anymore. Enjoy your day.


----------



## R-Star

Bogg said:


> Harden would have either won his second consecutive 6MOY award, received an increased role in the offense and taken Ibaka's spot as OKC's third all-star, or both. Not to mention that he would have gotten handed Westbrook's share of the offense when Westbrook when down this postseason. OKC would have had no problem finding a market for Harden this offseason in a sign-and-trade. Just off the top of my head, Boston and Utah would both have been able to put together attractive offers.
> 
> 
> 
> Ibaka's a solid starter, he just isn't the star that he's sometimes been billed as. Other than that, yea, Jackson and Perkins are good guys to have on your bench. I don't think anyone expected Perk to pick up the slack on offense (although he was admittedly disappointing on defense).
> 
> EDIT: In reality, I'm just mad that Ainge can't turn Pierce/Bradley/JET/16th/2015 protected first into Harden/Perkins this summer


Ibaka is a solid starter I agree. I also view Martin as a solid starter, its just people are expecting too much from him since he was the centerpiece in a deal for Harden.

As far as Perkins, I'm not sure hes a valid starter at this point anymore, but with that contract the Thunder are SOL. Luckily the league is still devoid of many quality centers, so guys like Perkins can fake their way for the time being.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Sir Patchwork said:


> I mean, people on this site gave Diable absolute hell for saying Harden was better than Kobe, and when given the opportunity to play the role, Harden had a similar season statistically and led his less talented team to a better record.


No he didn't. If you remember correctly OKC was the 1 seed. Who did they play in the first round?

Anyways, the trade would of been just fine if Westbrook doesn't go down. They lose in the finals again to Miami and have a lot of flexibility going forward. Lamb I've been in love with since I saw him during the lockout season at UCONN. 

Harden's role was never going to be much more than it was in OKC. You can get players for half the price to fill that role. It's like having Dwight Howard and asking him to do only what Larry Sanders does (which the Lakers did for about a month and played horribly).


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Jamel Irief said:


> No he didn't. If you remember correctly OKC was the 1 seed. Who did they play in the first round?


Point taken, but to be fair, when Kobe went down they were the 8th seed.


----------



## R-Star

Jamel Irief said:


> No he didn't. If you remember correctly OKC was the 1 seed. Who did they play in the first round?
> 
> Anyways, the trade would of been just fine if Westbrook doesn't go down. They lose in the finals again to Miami and have a lot of flexibility going forward. Lamb I've been in love with since I saw him during the lockout season at UCONN.
> 
> *Harden's role was never going to be much more than it was in OKC. You can get players for half the price to fill that role. It's like having Dwight Howard and asking him to do only what Larry Sanders does (which the Lakers did for about a month and played horribly).*


Yep. People seem to be having a hard time with that. Harden wasn't asked for anything more than be a third scoring option. They weren't going to bump Russ or Durant into that role. It was never going to change. And its not like Harden is any sort of great defender, so he's basically out there as a scorer and ballhandler when Russ was out, nothing else.

People keep talking about how better the Thunder would be right now with Harden. They'd only be better while Russ was out, which no one saw coming.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Also, as far as the idea that they could have received more for Harden, that's possible. Maybe if they held out until this offseason, they could have done a sign-and-trade and received a pretty nice package. It's also possible they would have lost him without any compensation or very little. I am of the opinion that striking unexpectedly is the best way to get the most value. Once teams know you're on the ropes looking for a deal, they aren't too eager to give you a whole bunch.


----------



## Bogg

Sir Patchwork said:


> Also, as far as the idea that they could have received more for Harden, that's possible. Maybe if they held out until this offseason, they could have done a sign-and-trade and received a pretty nice package. *It's also possible they would have lost him without any compensation or very little.* I am of the opinion that striking unexpectedly is the best way to get the most value. Once teams know you're on the ropes looking for a deal, they aren't too eager to give you a whole bunch.


There was no chance of him walking for nothing, because he was a restricted free agent. Worst-case scenario, you match the four-year max offer he was going to get and deal from a position of strength at the trade deadline. 

However, like I've said, the Houston trade can still be salvaged if Lamb turns into a high-level third option (very possible) or if Presti can turn the 12th pick in a surprise stud (happens in the teens in almost every draft).


----------



## E.H. Munro

Sir Patchwork said:


> Also, as far as the idea that they could have received more for Harden, that's possible. Maybe if they held out until this offseason, they could have done a sign-and-trade and received a pretty nice package. It's also possible they would have lost him without any compensation or very little. I am of the opinion that striking unexpectedly is the best way to get the most value. Once teams know you're on the ropes looking for a deal, they aren't too eager to give you a whole bunch.


Teams over the cap wouldn't have had a choice. So good teams wanting in on the action would have had to make OKC a real deal.


----------



## R-Star

OKC got fair value all things considered. If you're trading a star these days you basically get rapped. Look at the Magic, although that was definitely a different situation. 

If Kevin Martin resigns it will be for much less and they'll have a good third option for the price. Or they'll get a ton of cap coming off the books which could turn out to be even better. I'm not sure of OKC's cap situation, but if there's room, it wouldn't be tough to lure in a quality FA this offseason with that money. 

Couple that with Lamb and another decent draft pick and I think OKC made a good deal.

If Westbrook didn't go down there'd be less people losing their minds right now. They lost their second best player and lost to a very good Grizzlies team.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Bogg said:


> There was no chance of him walking for nothing, because he was a restricted free agent. Worst-case scenario, you match the four-year max offer he was going to get and deal from a position of strength at the trade deadline.


This to me is a bad scenario, considering they're a 60 win team without him and should be focusing on trying to win championships. Part of the appeal for Presti had to be getting it done early enough to where it wouldn't be a distraction. If Harden been "on the block" for a year and a half until they found a deal they liked, that's a distraction. Sure, OKC could have matched any deal, but to me that would hault the progression this team is trying to make. 



Bogg said:


> However, like I've said, the Houston trade can still be salvaged if Lamb turns into a high-level third option (very possible) or if Presti can turn the 12th pick in a surprise stud (happens in the teens in almost every draft).


Yes, we'll see. Presti has a pretty good draft record and Lamb can clearly play, but we'll see if that manifests.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Sir Patchwork said:


> This to me is a bad scenario, considering they're a 60 win team without him and should be focusing on trying to win championships. Part of the appeal for Presti had to be getting it done early enough to where it wouldn't be a distraction. If Harden been "on the block" for a year and a half until they found a deal they liked, that's a distraction. Sure, OKC could have matched any deal, but to me that would hault the progression this team is trying to make.


Well, they could have (and, I think, should have) done what Boston should have done with Rondo and let the market set his value. If anyone had bowled them over with an offer they could always have dealt him, but in any event come this summer they would still have had the ability to sign & trade him to teams like the Hawks, Rockets, Jazz, Pistons, etc. that all had more attractive packages than the 12th pick in a crappy draft.



Sir Patchwork said:


> Yes, we'll see. Presti has a pretty good draft record and Lamb can clearly play, but we'll see if that manifests.


Really? I wasn't overly impressed by him in college, he looked awfully weak and not terribly quick, either. I've always figured him for filler on the pro level. Then again I thought Klay Thompson's absolute ceiling was borderline all star and he's already there.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

E.H. Munro said:


> Well, they could have (and, I think, should have) done what Boston should have done with Rondo and let the market set his value. If anyone had bowled them over with an offer they could always have dealt him, but in any event come this summer they would still have had the ability to sign & trade him to teams like the Hawks, Rockets, Jazz, Pistons, etc. that all had more attractive packages than the 12th pick in a crappy draft.


Maybe you're right, although I'm just not sold on what value teams can get back in exchange for stars. I believe history backs me up on this. In theory, you should be able to get back a lot of for a young up-and-coming gauranteed superstar, but it just never happens like that. 



E.H. Munro said:


> Really? I wasn't overly impressed by him in college, he looked awfully weak and not terribly quick, either. I've always figured him for filler on the pro level. Then again I thought Klay Tjompson's absolute ceiling was borderline all star and he's already there.


When you can shoot, it makes you appear much quicker than you are because defenders have to play up that much closer. Lamb can shoot his ass off from what I've seen. I admit I haven't seen him play too much though. I don't expect him to be an all-star, but I think he has the skills to fill an important role on a championship level team when he develops. We'll find out next year hopefully what kind of path his career will take.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Sir Patchwork said:


> Maybe you're right, although I'm just not sold on what value teams can get back in exchange for stars. I believe history backs me up on this. In theory, you should be able to get back a lot of for a young up-and-coming gauranteed superstar, but it just never happens like that.


Depends, in cases where players force trades because they're UFAs and won't re-sign under any circumstance, that's generally true. But OKC did have the upper hand here as they had the ability to match any offer and avoid the luxury tax by amnestying Perkins. 

I suspect that they decided to move on after Ernie Grunfeld screwed up by not trading Beal for Harden. But as I said at the time, I didn't have a problem with that part of the deal. My problem with it was that rather than trying to convert those assets into a player that would put them over the top they gambled on those guys actually being what would put them over the top. Only right now it doesn't look very good.



Sir Patchwork said:


> When you can shoot, it makes you appear much quicker than you are because defenders have to play up that much closer. Lamb can shoot his ass off from what I've seen. I admit I haven't seen him play too much though. I don't expect him to be an all-star, but I think he has the skills to fill an important role on a championship level team when he develops. We'll find out next year hopefully what kind of path his career will take.


When I saw him on the college level he looked the quintessential star college player. Which is to say that he had enough to perform well at that level, but I just never saw him as anything more than a Courtney Lee level player at the next level (which is to say a roleplayer capable of being "the other guy on the floor").


----------



## R-Star

They didn't get Martin to put them "over the top". No one thought Martin was going to be an improvement on Harden, so I'm not sure why you're saying that. It was very clear then that Martin was supposed to fill Hardens role, which he did quite well prior to the Westbrook injury. They did this as a money saving move and Martins huge contract is coming off the books. 

Add Lamb whom most posters outside yourself see as a very solid young prospect, and another 1st round draft pick and its a very fair trade.


----------



## E.H. Munro

So what you're saying is that OKC wasn't gambling on those guys being able to put them over the top, so rather than trying to find someone that could they elected to hold onto them? Well, if you're right that should be the death knell of the "Sam Presti is a genius!" meme.


----------



## R-Star

I made it pretty clear they did it to get a guy to fill Hardens spot, and to get cap space going forward. They also got Lamb and another 1st rounder.

Where exactly is the confusion here?


----------



## E.H. Munro

They don't have cap space going forward. They don't even really have a lot of space under the luxury tax unless they amnesty Perkins.


----------



## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> They don't have cap space going forward. They don't even really have a lot of space under the luxury tax unless they amnesty Perkins.


They're in better shape financially than they were if they gave Harden superstar money to be their 6th man.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Or they could have just moved him into the starting lineup. But, regardless, they're now officially stuck with players that, according to you, they were sure weren't going to help them win a title. Which is why they elected to stick with them rather than turning them into a player that actually could help them win a title.


----------



## RollWithEm

MemphisX said:


> Can't wait for the playoffs when KMart falls flat on his face...


Wow.


----------



## R-Star

Players I said wouldn't help....... ha.....

Wow. As pathetic as ever with your debate tactics I see.

Before you waste half a day writing a post about how me saying "wouldn't put them over the top" somehow means they couldn't help them win a title, let me save you some time. You're an idiot.

Lets forget you keep acting like they aren't saving money from Martin.
Lets forget you said there's no way Martin fills in as 6th man, and he did so quite well. 
Lets forget Martin was never going to play 82 games, and yet he did, which is more than Harden.
Lets forget that when talking about the trade, you leave Lamb off to try to make it look worse.
Lets forget..... ****, lets just quit posting with you. Hows about that?


----------



## R-Star

Not to mention move Harden into the starting lineup?

Wow. Is this future basketball where there's 2 balls?


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> Players I said wouldn't help....... ha.....





R-Star said:


> They didn't get Martin to put them "over the top"


Could you please make up your mind? It's tough to have a discussion with you when you continuously disagree with yourself.



R-Star said:


> As pathetic as ever with your debate tactics I see.


True, I should be decisive like you and take all positions in every question then I can always declare that I was right.



R-Star said:


> You're an idiot.


You may be the most insecure human being I've ever seen on the internet. And given the medium that's saying a lot.



R-Star said:


> Lets forget you keep acting like they aren't saving money from Martin.


Odd. I actually pointed that out about 500 replies ago, when we were discussing the repercussions that Perkins' contract has had on the roster. 



R-Star said:


> Lets forget you said there's no way Martin fills in as 6th man, and he did so quite well.


Not sure where you're finding that. I said he was a huge downgrade, and he was. And he sucked in the playoffs to boot. (Not that anyone was surprised by that.)



R-Star said:


> Lets forget Martin was never going to play 82 games, and yet he did, which is more than Harden.


Well, technically it's true that he did manage to play more games than Harden, but only because the Thunder's season was 93 games long. During the regular season Harden played more games and 800+ more minutes (or, about an extra 20 games worth of time). However I did underestimate Kevin Martin's contract year heroics, as he managed to top 70 games for the third time in a nine year career. 



R-Star said:


> Lets forget that when talking about the trade, you leave Lamb off to try to make it look worse.


You may need to learn to read. I actually did talk about Lamb, which you yourself admitted in an earlier post. But I shouldn't be shocked by your inability to make up your mind at this point.


----------



## R-Star

I wonder if EH is going to ruin another thread?

How many would that be now? 


You being an admin, while at the same time being such a shit poster comparable to the likes of doctordrizzy is why I seldom post these days, and why many have left this place for good.

Continue with your "Oh yea? I did say that actually! Put these 2 posts together, and cross reference with a post 1 year back and......" just shut the **** up already.

Honestly. Shut the **** up. Your what, 65 years old? And this is how you spend our days. Arguing, twisting words, never once admitting you're wrong. Just pathetic. 


Spend lots of time on your reply. I won't be reading it. Be sure to fill it with lots of "King of the interwebz!" Which is funny, since no one argues how right they are harder than yourself.


----------



## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> I wonder if R-Star is going to ruin another thread?


Why would you break an unblemished record of failure at this point?


----------



## e-monk

you guys have short term memories

1)harden turned down their offer so they were going to trade him by the deadline one way or another - if they'd waited until february things could have gotten really ugly internally and they would have gotten held up on the market value
2) the real question was serge v harden and they had 2 superlative wings so they picked serge - if you are going to gripe then gripe about serge plateauing/his lack of development - at least get it right
3) they got a stop gap in one year of Martin + cap alleviation, 2 lottery picks and Lamb - which is still a haul for a guy they werent going to keep one way or another (arguably more than the magic got for dwight) - if they'd waited until feb they would have gotten less; if they'd waited until this summer even less still


----------



## E.H. Munro

e-monk said:


> you guys have short term memories
> 
> 1)harden turned down their offer so they were going to trade him by the deadline one way or another - if they'd waited until february things could have gotten really ugly internally and they would have gotten held up on the market value
> 2) the real question was serge v harden and they had 2 superlative wings so they picked serge - if you are going to gripe then gripe about serge plateauing/his lack of development - at least get it right
> 3) they got a stop gap in one year of Martin + cap alleviation, 2 lottery picks and Lamb - which is still a haul for a guy they werent going to keep one way or another (arguably more than the magic got for dwight) - if they'd waited until feb they would have gotten less; if they'd waited until this summer even less still


They got Toronto's lottery pick. There are no guarantees on the Houston pick, and given how well the Rockets played last year, and their current cap situation, there's nigh on a 0% chance that that future first falls anywhere outside the crapshoot section of the draft. 

Second, go back to the start of the thread, my _only_ criticism of the deal was that if OKC _didn't_ convert the accumulated assets into a guy that could help put them over the top then it didn't look to be a good deal for them. So my criticism, now, after the fact, is that what they have to show for the trade is the right to overpay Martin and a mid first in a gawdawful draft. Everything else is pretty much filler (like former NBAer Jiri Welch in the old Antoine Walker for Raef LaFrentz deal).


----------



## e-monk

that 'houston' pick is actually a mavs pick (by way of LAL) but you're the expert

and you're not the only bitch barking


----------



## E.H. Munro

e-monk said:


> that 'houston' pick is actually a mavs pick (by way of LAL) but you're the expert
> 
> and you're not the only bitch barking


As the protections on that pick are insane, that one actually works out even worse. About the only way to get that pick Dallas gave up in th Odom trade involve Howard signing there this summer and them getting back to 50 wins. On the bright side, if it worked out the guy they'd get at 25 next year will likely be better than the one they'll get at 12 this year.


----------



## MemphisX

People still trying to justify this trade :jr:

Worst trade in history. Not only do you give up a 23 year old top 10 player but you killed your chances to compete now when you are on the verge of winning it all. They broke up a championship level team to save money. This is criminal. 

Saying Harden wouldn't be Harden in Okc makes it worse. They saw James Harden every day. They should have known what level of player he was in reality. 

Now they have another hole to fill because you can't go into next offseason plugging in Jeremy Lamb for KMart and not changing up Perkins/Ibaka. If Perkins can't help against Memphis, he is virtually useless. 

Plus Jeremy Lamb turning into a championship level 3rd option in the next 2-3 seasons is iffy at best. Do people really see that happening after watching him in college? It would be damn near miraculous player development.

Their bigs are Ibaka, a now useless Perkins, an aging Collison and Thabeet.

They are literally going to need a miracle to recover from this Harden trade.


----------



## OneBadLT123

The part of the trade that I feel is going to kill the Thunder the most is they instead felt the need to keep Perkins or Ibaka over Harden. Its not what they got in return, but its who they chose to keep over him. Perkins is due almost 19 million for 2 more years! Even if they amnesty his ass, they have to pay his salary but they wouldn't have had the cap hit. Instead they chose to keep him over Harden.

Lamb right now is an unknown. He hasn't really had the chance to flourish so who knows what he will become in 2-3 years. 

Martin in general, is a fools gold replacement. The dude gives some of the most empty statistics a player can put up while being as one dimensional as it gets.

With that said though, lets not act like the Thunder are in purgatory here. The team won the west's best record and had a horribly timed injury. It just happens that the best front court in the league exposed OKC's worst weakness. If they were going to trade Harden, they should have traded for front court help instead.


----------



## E.H. Munro

OneBadLT123 said:


> With that said though, lets not act like the Thunder are in purgatory here. The team won the west's best record and had a horribly timed injury. It just happens that the best front court in the league exposed OKC's worst weakness. If they were going to trade Harden, they should have traded for front court help instead.


I always assumed they made the best deal they could at the time in hopes of converting all their assets into a frontcourt player that would put them over the top. But for whatever reason Presti froze and gambled on Martin not being Martin and the Raptors doing nothing (and finishing with a bottom five record). That part just can't be justified by anyone whose IQ has three digits. 

(Although in retrospect I guess I have to downgrade the trade because I always thought that the other #1 was coming from Houston rather than the conditional Dallas one which I'm pretty sure converts to a second and cash unless the Mavs finish outside the top 20.)


----------



## E.H. Munro

MemphisX said:


> Saying Harden wouldn't be Harden in Okc makes it worse. They saw James Harden every day. They should have known what level of player he was in reality.


To me what makes it worse is that if they let the market set the rate he wouldn't be getting anything like what Houston's paying him, because as an RFA his max deal would be similar to the one Marc Gasol's sporting.


----------



## Jamel Irief

MemphisX said:


> People still trying to justify this trade :jr:
> 
> Worst trade in history. Not only do you give up a 23 year old top 10 player but you killed your chances to compete now when you are on the verge of winning it all. They broke up a championship level team to save money. This is criminal.
> 
> Saying Harden wouldn't be Harden in Okc makes it worse. They saw James Harden every day. They should have known what level of player he was in reality.
> 
> Now they have another hole to fill because you can't go into next offseason plugging in Jeremy Lamb for KMart and not changing up Perkins/Ibaka. If Perkins can't help against Memphis, he is virtually useless.
> 
> Plus Jeremy Lamb turning into a championship level 3rd option in the next 2-3 seasons is iffy at best. Do people really see that happening after watching him in college? It would be damn near miraculous player development.
> 
> Their bigs are Ibaka, a now useless Perkins, an aging Collison and Thabeet.
> 
> They are literally going to need a miracle to recover from this Harden trade.


Hobojoe can you stop this guys overuse of the word literally? It worked for noone. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Floods

MemphisX said:


> People still trying to justify this trade :jr:
> 
> Worst trade in history. Not only do you give up a 23 year old top 10 player but you killed your chances to compete now when you are on the verge of winning it all. They broke up a championship level team to save money. This is criminal.
> 
> Saying Harden wouldn't be Harden in Okc makes it worse. They saw James Harden every day. They should have known what level of player he was in reality.
> 
> Now they have another hole to fill because you can't go into next offseason plugging in Jeremy Lamb for KMart and not changing up Perkins/Ibaka. If Perkins can't help against Memphis, he is virtually useless.
> 
> Plus Jeremy Lamb turning into a championship level 3rd option in the next 2-3 seasons is iffy at best. Do people really see that happening after watching him in college? It would be damn near miraculous player development.
> 
> Their bigs are Ibaka, a now useless Perkins, an aging Collison and Thabeet.
> 
> They are literally going to need a miracle to recover from this Harden trade.


Oh my lord. I think we found JBKB's main account.



OneBadLT123 said:


> The part of the trade that I feel is going to kill the Thunder the most is they instead felt the need to keep Perkins or Ibaka over Harden. Its not what they got in return, but its who they chose to keep over him. Perkins is due almost 19 million for 2 more years! Even if they amnesty his ass, they have to pay his salary but they wouldn't have had the cap hit. Instead they chose to keep him over Harden.


Okay, say OKC does choose Harden over Perkins (because that was totally the choice). Say they buy Harden a small island to be their sixth man, and amnesty Perkins. Now who plays center? Now where does the frontcourt help come from?



> Martin in general, is a fools gold replacement. The dude gives some of the most empty statistics a player can put up while being as one dimensional as it gets.


Martin was acquired because he was an expiring contract who could fill the backup SG slot. That's it.

Awful lot of bullshit in this thread right now. First of all, the Harden deal didn't cripple OKC's chances, Westbrook's injury crippled their chances. Regardless, this trade was never about this season for OKC, it was about not having to pay Harden something absurd to come off the bench and score 17 a game, and getting some assets in return with the goal of future roster flexibility. Whether those assets will pan out, who knows. But that's the game. If I'm the Thunder, I'd rather my dilemma be about how to replace my former shooting guard's decent playmaking and efficient 17 a night, instead of trying to figure out how I'm going to replace Ibaka's defense and rebuild the frontcourt I nuked so I could pay Harden.

Yeah, it's working out pretty well for Houston, but bitching about OKC's end of the deal less than a year later is dumb and short-sighted.


----------



## R-Star

Floods said:


> Oh my lord. I think we found JBKB's main account.
> 
> 
> Okay, say OKC does choose Harden over Perkins (because that was totally the choice). Say they buy Harden a small island to be their sixth man, and amnesty Perkins. Now who plays center? Now where does the frontcourt help come from?
> 
> 
> Martin was acquired because he was an expiring contract who could fill the backup SG slot. That's it.
> 
> Awful lot of bullshit in this thread right now. First of all, the Harden deal didn't cripple OKC's chances, Westbrook's injury crippled their chances. Regardless, this trade was never about this season for OKC, it was about not having to pay Harden something absurd to come off the bench and score 17 a game, and getting some assets in return with the goal of future roster flexibility. Whether those assets will pan out, who knows. But that's the game. If I'm the Thunder, I'd rather my dilemma be about how to replace my former shooting guard's decent playmaking and efficient 17 a night, instead of trying to figure out how I'm going to replace Ibaka's frontcourt defense and rebuild the frontcourt I nuked so I could pay Harden.
> 
> Yeah, it's working out pretty well for Houston, but bitching about OKC's end of the deal less than a year later is dumb and short-sighted.


But why deal in reality?

Just be like the rest of the guys in this thread. Say stuff like "They could have just moved Harden into the starting lineup then!"

Sure there'd never be enough shots to go around, and pairing 3 of the top 10 turnover guys in the league from this year would be a disaster. But why not just run your mouth off and pretend everyone would have shot at the exact same clip instead?

I mean, why look at it as picking Ibaka and cap space over nearly maxing out your 6th man and destroying your front court? Why do that when you can just say "**** man, I mean they picked Perkins over Harden! Dumb trade bro, dumb trade."

Get with the times guy, talking actual facts on this website is for suckers. Did you know they traded Harden just to make room for Derek Fisher?


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## E.H. Munro

There is no cap space. And won't be unless they decide to let Durant Walk in a few years. As I said more than 500 responses go, I had no problems with the trade _unless_ they did nothing after. Which they didn't.


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## Luke

A Westbrook/Harden/Durant/Green/Ibaka lineup would have been filthy against the Heat


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## R-Star

Luke said:


> A Westbrook/Harden/Durant/Green/Ibaka lineup would have been filthy against the Heat
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


Any lineup with Westbrook, Harden, and Durant in it at the same time would be terrible if left to their own devices. 

"I'm shooting!" Russ
"Why can't I? Oh well, I guess I'll be nice." Durant
"**** that, I'm throwing it into the crowd." James "Turnover Machine" Harden


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## RollWithEm

R-Star said:


> Any lineup with Westbrook, Harden, and Durant in it at the same time would be terrible if left to their own devices.


What does "if left to their own devices" mean in this context? Like if they were in a pick-up game with no coach?


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## R-Star

RollWithEm said:


> What does "if left to their own devices" mean in this context? Like if they were in a pick-up game with no coach?


If Harden had the attitude he had this year, there's not enough shots to go around for Durant, Westbrook and Harden, no matter what coaches have to say.


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## MemphisX

RollWithEm said:


> What does "if left to their own devices" mean in this context? Like if they were in a pick-up game with no coach?


In the make believe world in which people try to walk back their earlier claims by acting like James harden is some selfish ballhog.

Unfortunately, unlike every other scorer trapped on a team without another relevant offensive player, Harden has a documented history which makes people trying to act like he is a ballhog seem pretty silly.


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## XxIrvingxX

Here's my two cents on it. Although what the Thunder got back didn't nearly make up for what they lost, you guys have to remember that there wasn't much they could do. It was either that or let Harden walk for nothing. The Thunder did get a great scorer out of it and some other players as well. It ain't much but it's something. 

And Harden being traded is not the reason the Thunder lost this year. Come on now. Westbrooks injury blew any chance the Thunder had of winning, this should be a well known fact by now.


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## R-Star

MemphisX said:


> In the make believe world in which people try to walk back their earlier claims by acting like James harden is some selfish ballhog.
> 
> Unfortunately, unlike every other scorer trapped on a team without another relevant offensive player, Harden has a documented history which makes people trying to act like he is a ballhog seem pretty silly.


Yea. He didn't lead the league in turnovers or anything.

The real fantasy world is guys like you trying to pretend the Rockets are James Harden and some JV level squad.


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## R-Star

XxIrvingxX said:


> Here's my two cents on it. Although what the Thunder got back didn't nearly make up for what they lost, you guys have to remember that there wasn't much they could do. It was either that or let Harden walk for nothing. The Thunder did get a great scorer out of it and some other players as well. It ain't much but it's something.
> 
> And Harden being traded is not the reason the Thunder lost this year. Come on now. Westbrooks injury blew any chance the Thunder had of winning,* this should be a well known fact by now.*


Most of the people on this website don't like facts.


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## Diable

Harden's turnovers are pretty much identical to Kobe's and Jrue Holiday, he's only slightly higher than Durant and Westbrook. In the top ten there are a lot of terrible players, like Kyrie Irving, Stephen Curry and Lebron James. There are very few players who can play the role that Harden played this year without turning the ball over. When you're asking a guy to be your alpha and omega it can't turn out perfectly all the time. Harden seems to either have it or not from what I've seen, he's erratic and some games he's really terrible which distorts his stats as much as the games where his numbers are straight out of 2K13

It appears that Harden is 103rd in the NBA in Turnover Percentage, which gives you an idea of how much he's handling the ball.


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## R-Star

Diable said:


> Harden's turnovers are pretty much identical to Kobe's and Jrue Holiday, he's only slightly higher than Durant and Westbrook. In the top ten there are a lot of terrible players, like Kyrie Irving, Stephen Curry and Lebron James. There are very few players who can play the role that Harden played this year without turning the ball over. When you're asking a guy to be your alpha and omega it can't turn out perfectly all the time.
> 
> It appears that Harden is 103rd in the NBA in Turnover Percentage, which gives you an idea of how much he's handling the ball.


Jrue Holiday also smoked Harden in the assist category, so go ahead and never compare them again. And Kobe? With all the nice things you've said about Kobe over the years, you're now comparing Harden to him in that light? That's hilarious. 

I'm glad Chandler Parsons is only a good player when it suits peoples argument. 

James Harden plays as a turnover prone ballhog who is one of the best scorers in the league when hes the #1 option. Debate all you want, but its not debatable.


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## E.H. Munro

XxIrvingxX said:


> Here's my two cents on it. Although what the Thunder got back didn't nearly make up for what they lost, you guys have to remember that there wasn't much they could do. It was either that or let Harden walk for nothing. The Thunder did get a great scorer out of it and some other players as well. It ain't much but it's something.


Except that the Thunder _didn't_ need to "lose Harden for nothing" because he was a restricted free agent and never had the option of playing anywhere _except_ where the Thunder decided he was going. And they certainly didn't get back a "great scorer" for him unless your really believe that Lamb is going to come out of nowhere and turn into an all star.


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## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> James Harden plays as a turnover prone ballhog who is one of the best scorers in the league when hes the #1 option. Debate all you want, but its not debatable.


LeBron? Turnover prone ballhog. Jrue Holiday? Turnover prone ballhog. Steph Curry? Turnover prone ballhog. Kevin Durant? Turnover prone ballhog. Deron Williams, Jeff Teague, Jeremy Lin, Greivis Vazquez, Damian Lillard, Goran Dragic? Turnover prone ballhogs. These guys suck and there's just no debating it

1.	James Harden-HOU	295
2.	Jrue Holiday-PHI	292
3.	Kobe Bryant-LAL	287
4.	Kevin Durant-OKC	280
5.	Russell Westbrook-OKC	273
6.	Monta Ellis-MIL	254
7.	Greivis Vasquez-NOH	247
8.	Damian Lillard-POR	243
9.	Stephen Curry-GSW	240
10.	Jeremy Lin-HOU	236
11.	Greg Monroe-DET	234
12.	Paul George-IND	233
13.	Jeff Teague-ATL	230
14.	LeBron James-MIA	226
Josh Smith-ATL	226
16.	DeMarcus Cousins-SAC	225
Dwight Howard-LAL	225
18.	Deron Williams-BRK	218
19.	Paul Pierce-BOS	214
20.	Goran Dragic-PHO	212


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## R-Star

You do understand 8 of the 10 guys you mentioned in your posts are point guards right? With much higher assist per game and assist to turnover ratio's right? And Lebron? He had 70 less turnovers, why are we even talking about him?

No.... What's really funny here is you guys walking face first into proving my point time and time again. 

Who's #1, #4 and #5 on that list you just posted? Hey I know, lets put them all on the court at the same time. Lets also take their best post player offensively and defensively out of the equation. Brilliant. Why wouldn't the Thunder want that?


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## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> Except that the Thunder _didn't_ need to "lose Harden for nothing" because he was a restricted free agent and never had the option of playing anywhere _except_ where the Thunder decided he was going. And they certainly didn't get back a "great scorer" for him unless your really believe that Lamb is going to come out of nowhere and turn into an all star.


Worked well with Eric Gordon.


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## Jamel Irief

E.H. Munro said:


> Except that the Thunder _didn't_ need to "lose Harden for nothing" because he was a restricted free agent and never had the option of playing anywhere _except_ where the Thunder decided he was going. And they certainly didn't get back a "great scorer" for him unless your really believe that Lamb is going to come out of nowhere and turn into an all star.


A guy that can average 20 ppg while shooting 50-40-90 is a great scorer. One year he was top 5 in free throws and 3 pointers made. 


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


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## R-Star

Jamel Irief said:


> A guy that can average 20 ppg while shooting 50-40-90 is a great scorer. One year he was top 5 in free throws and 3 pointers made.
> 
> 
> Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


"Yea, except I guarantee he'll be injured half the year."


Remember that one? That one was almost as funny as;

"Martin is one of the worst passers in the league. He throws the ball into the stands every game." EH Munro

I mean he did average an earth shattering 1.3 TO's per game, so I guess EH kind of had a point there....


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## E.H. Munro

R-Star said:


> That one was almost as funny as;
> 
> "Martin is one of the worst passers in the league. He throws the ball into the stands every game." EH Munro
> 
> I mean he did average an earth shattering 1.3 TO's per game, so I guess EH kind of had a point there....


Yeah, that ****ing Korean moron...



E.H. Munro said:


> Martin isn't an average passer. Unless by average passer you mean "accidentally throws the ball once or twice a week at someone who gets a bucket".


errrr, wait, he seems to be saying something completely different there. Maybe you should divorce your wife and marry someone that doesn't collapse in laughter every time you drop your trousers? It might help you with your security issues. 

However there were some prescient moments in this thread...



seifer0406 said:


> If this is true OKC did well getting assets in return. However they are definitely worse off in terms of talent after the trade. Harden fills a specific need for them as Westbrook isn't much of a distributor. OKC gets no such player in return and will have to look for someone else to get Kevin Durant the ball in crunch time.





hobojoe said:


> Harden is going to put up some numbers in Houston.


And some... well... Baselicious ones...



Basel said:


> Suddenly I feel a bit more confident that the Lakers will win the West.


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## R-Star

Wait......what?


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## E.H. Munro

I think that you were caught making shit up that you could denounce as stupid. Even though you were the originator of the statement. Not that there should be any surprise in that. That's just SOP for the King of the Interwebz.

There's a hilarious exchange in the thread where you accused me of putting words in Sliccat's mouth because, and I quote "He said Martin was good coming off of screens, not shooting off them" (the post where you called me a "****ing Korean").


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## R-Star

What?


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## hobojoe

I still think it's fair to criticize OKC for this trade (and other moves/decisions that led to this trade), but too many people are using the Westbrook injury to justify your opinion and that's BS.


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## E.H. Munro

hobojoe said:


> I still think it's fair to criticize OKC for this trade (and other moves/decisions that led to this trade), but too many people are using the Westbrook injury to justify your opinion and that's BS.


Well, at the start of the discussion I said that the Thunder probably made the best trade they could, but that I expected them to cash in the accumulated assets to find the third player that would take them past Miami. 

I expect that what happened was that the Howard trade panicked Presti and he decided to stand pat instead, and it all blew up in his face when Westbrook got injured and the Thunder were forced to turn to a second year late draft pick as their second scoring option because Martin was busy playing like Martin. I'm not sure where they go from here.


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## R-Star

E.H. Munro said:


> Well, at the start of the discussion I said that the Thunder probably made the best trade they could, but that I expected them to cash in the accumulated assets to find the third player that would take them past Miami.
> 
> I expect that what happened was that the Howard trade panicked Presti and he decided to stand pat instead, and it all blew up in his face when Westbrook got injured and the Thunder were forced to turn to a second year late draft pick as their second scoring option because Martin was busy playing like Martin. I'm not sure where they go from here.


Like say, if Chris Bosh or Dwyane Wade went down for the playoffs.
Or Zach Randolph or Marc Gasol
Or Tim Duncan or Tony Parker
Indiana with Paul George or Roy Hibber


The fact anyone acting like its a team flaw that Russ Westbrook wasn't replaceable just in case he ever got injured in the playoffs is completely asinine.


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## hobojoe

Yea I mean they lost a top 5 (or at the very least top 10) player in the league, it should surprise nobody that they got outplayed and beat by a very good team. Not to mention Westbrook is one of if not the most durable players in the league whose injury was as freak of an injury as you'll see (borderline cheap shot). Criticizing the Thunder on those grounds is ridiculous. 

I understand why they chose to get rid of Harden and keep their big man, but to me it was a mistake because the talent difference between Ibaka and Harden is so great. It's not ideal to have your three best players have similar and overlapping skill sets, but if you have three top ten players I think you lock them up and worry about moving one of them later if it fails. It's not like if they gave Harden the deal he was looking for they couldn't move him (or Westbrook) later on if they couldn't get over the hump. 

It's much harder to acquire a talent like Harden than it is to replace Ibaka. That's where I criticize the Thunder. They were extremely quick to show Ibaka the big bucks and I think that's where they failed. If Ibaka was on the same level as Harden or even close, of course you keep the big man and the guy who does things Durant and Westbrook don't do rather than a guy so similar to them. But Ibaka isn't that caliber of a player.


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## E.H. Munro

They definitely should have allowed the market to set the rates on both guys. People like to point to the supermax deal that Harden got, but he was only eligible for it because he was in Houston, the Thunder could have had him for around 4/60.


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## Diable

You have to turn Harden into an impact player or at least several good rotation players. I doubt that the market for Martin is all that great, so you can keep him or replace. However Lamb is probably a bench player at most and I'd guess that the best that they could hope for out of the 12th pick this year would be Shane Larkin, but any way you slice it that isn't enough.


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## e-monk

they got Dallas's 1st too - the real issue with the trade is not a Martin vs Harden comparison - it's a Harden vs Ibaka comparison that was ultimately the decision they made


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## Diable

The bottom line is that Harden is worth one hell of a lot more than what they got in exchange. This is like 20 cents on the dollar no matter what. Even if they miraculously get some decent players out of those picks it isn't going to change the value of the picks themselves.


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## E.H. Munro

e-monk said:


> they got Dallas's 1st too - the real issue with the trade is not a Martin vs Harden comparison - it's a Harden vs Ibaka comparison that was ultimately the decision they made


They got a Dallas first that's top 20 protected until 2017. Unless Dallas suddenly dives into the lottery in 2018 while never climbing into the top ten from now until then, odds are that the first is filler. More useful as trade fodder than anything else.

One of the other criticisms was that losing Harden's playmaking was going to hurt Westbrook's game, by throwing all that responsibility on his shoulders. Let's see how it worked out in practise, first the overall numbers (and I'm using /min stats for scoring because we're going to compare overall to crunchtime performance)

2011-12 .67 p/m .481 eFG% 1.076 pts/poss (LA .487 eFG% 1.046 pts/poss)
2012-13 .67 p/m .470 eFG% 1.064 pts/poss (LA .496 eFG% 1.058 pts/poss)

Well, without Harden he was a less efficient shooter and scorer. Now let's look at crunchtime (last five minutes of regulation and overtime in close games)

2011-12 .83 p/m .460 eFG% 1.154 pts/poss
2012-13 .73 p/m .386 eFG% 1.049 pts/poss

So in crunchtime, once OKC's Big Three turned into a Big Two Westbrook's performance went to pot. He was a horrific shooter whose free throws couldn't get him back to average. Conclusion? They needed someone that could make plays for others, like Harden, and replacing him with a black hole made their other all star worse. Not sure what they do here. Ricky Ledo allegedly has a lottery promise, I'm assuming it's from OKC. But he's another long term project.


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## R-Star

Diable said:


> You have to turn Harden into an impact player or at least several good rotation players. I doubt that the market for Martin is all that great, so you can keep him or replace. However Lamb is probably a bench player at most and I'd guess that the best that they could hope for out of the 12th pick this year would be Shane Larkin, but any way you slice it that isn't enough.


So Lambs hardly played and his ceiling is already bench player at best?


Come the **** on with this ridiculous bullshit.


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## MemphisX




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## seifer0406

Most overrated MVP in league history


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## Sir Patchwork

Harden is having an awesome season. Hopefully for his sake he has diversified his offensive game enough and can get out of the first round this year. He has yet to shoot better than 40% from the field for a series since he left OKC. Wesley Matthews made him look pretty bad last year.


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## R-Star

The Rockets have 0 chance at winning a title. They're a team of talented losers. All you're going to get out of those guys is very quotable excuses on ESPN after they're exposed.


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## hobojoe

Jamel Irief said:


> Wow... Compare this to what Orlando got for Dwight.


Vucevic and Payton > What OKC got


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## kbdullah

I was actually thinking of this trade when I posted Barkley's comments about analytics in the other thread. Gotta give credit to Morey and his ways for being able to see the star in someone else's sixth man. Not easy deciding to pay someone max money.


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## R-Star

kbdullah said:


> I was actually thinking of this trade when I posted Barkley's comments about analytics in the other thread. Gotta give credit to Morey and his ways for being able to see the star in someone else's sixth man. Not easy deciding to pay someone max money.


I think there was a decent list of teams looking to max out Harden though.


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## kbdullah

Yeah, true. They did the same thing w/ Asik though so I think there's something to it. I know a lot of ppl, myself included, said Asik was overpaid at the time. Unfortunately Houston whiffed on Bosh and lost Asik for next to nothing.


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