# Just say NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

came across this and really hope Zeke looks the other way on Benedict boozer...



> If Utah doesn't try to move up to get one of the point guards, the word is that the team likes Spanish power forward Fran Vazquez. If Utah is inclined to move Boozer, the Knicks and one of their expiring contracts are a possibility. The Knicks always are looking for more talent and willing to take the extra years. They also have the No. 8 pick, so they'd have a chance to upgrade as well.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

I realize boozer is a jerk , but if it is a straight up deal between TT and boozer ....there is no way you can expect Zeke to say no.

another guy who can play center would somewhat lessen the need to aquire one , plus he is just alot better to have than Thomas , he is a consistent efficient scorer who hits the offensive boards, plays hard and has a good attitude on the court .

between him and sweetney , the knicks would be a presence down there in the paint.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Link


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

disgruntledKNICKfan said:


> I realize boozer is a jerk , but if it is a straight up deal between TT and boozer ....there is no way you can expect Zeke to say no.
> 
> another guy who can play center would somewhat lessen the need to aquire one , plus he is just alot better to have than Thomas , he is a consistent efficient scorer who hits the offensive boards, plays hard and has a good attitude on the court .
> 
> between him and sweetney , the knicks would be a presence down there in the paint.


sorry,i left out part of my thoughts..If its TT and Sweetney,just say no :curse:


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

truth said:


> sorry,i left out part of my thoughts..If its TT and Sweetney,just say no :curse:



sweets and TT ...yeah thats too much . I'd like boozer on the knicks but not at that price.

i thought about it earlier trying to think of a fair deal .

penny and sweets for okur and boozer would be fair .

it would clear a heck of alot of salary from the jazz next season to the point they only have 32 mil. committed counting the #6 and the 27 picks. 

the would have pretty close to the amount of cap space they had when they aquired okur and boozer (provided the cap is up to 45-50 mil. as rumored)

the jazz are simply overpaying these 2 based on their production, but the knicks would really be helped by them , they need a center and boozer can play well enough KT is on the bench backing up both spots .

okur's jumpshot would fit in perfect with marbury's drive and kicks and pick and roll...in which the knicks big men almost never roll.

both teams would be helped.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Hate it...*

Boozer may be a slsight upgrade at the PF, but Okur is just dead weight. I don't think that IT has even established that Marbury is going to be here long term...he was pissed about his lack of defense, so to commit long term to guys that fit his style may be a huge mistake. Okur is another Doleac...is that what we need for a starting center? Since Boozer is also undersized and is overpaid, I don't think will happen..too redundant. 

Center or top wingman.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

i would not mind having boozer but we could do better with the expiring deals if we wait. boozer is good but doesnt play as much defense as we need. plus his contract is very long term and expensive.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Debt Collector said:


> i would not mind having boozer but we could do better with the expiring deals if we wait. boozer is good but doesnt play as much defense as we need. plus his contract is very long term and expensive.



boozer is 23 years old with a long term deal and he holds his own on defense , but i agree he's no stopper or shotblocking presence , he can play defense and i think he was more effective, both defensively and on the boards in cleve. because he wasn't overburdened with the scoring load they gave him in utah.

he wouldn't have that problem in ny, he can just play his game here.

I think its not exactly a bad thing to have him tied up . despite what people think the knicks will never be below the cap in the next 5-10 years .

marbury and crawford are signed seemingly forever, houston will be traded ...you wait and see in his final year and bring in more high salaried players .

as will any assortment of mo taylor, jerome williams, malik rose and kurt thomas .

also memo okur scores and rebounds at about the same rate as mike sweetney...so i'm not sure i'd equate him to mike doleac who is a good defender and rebounder but cant score really at all.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

now okur could really help us out, but i dont think that utah wants to get rid of him....?


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

wait, you mean carlos boozer? we already got kurt thomas. boozers offensive game is just his jumper, and it aint Kurt Thomas good.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

PennyHardaway said:


> wait, you mean carlos boozer? we already got kurt thomas. boozers offensive game is just his jumper, and it aint Kurt Thomas good.


http://www.82games.com/04NYK14A.HTM

kurt thomas

Shot selection Shot Att. eFG% Ast'd Blk'd Pts 
Jump 89% .455 90% 3% 9.1 
Close 9% .618 52% 13% 1.3 
Dunk 0% 1.000 50% 0% 0.1 
Tips 2% .500 0% 0% 0.2 
Inside 11% .607 45% 11% 1.6 

boozer
http://www.82games.com/04UTA12A.HTM

Shot selection Shot Att. eFG% Ast'd Blk'd Pts 
Jump 54% .411 64% 5% 6.0 
Close 36% .582 69% 18% 5.7 
Dunk 8% .947 87% 4% 2.1 
Tips 2% .600 0% 0% 0.4 
Inside 46% .648 71% 15% 8.2 

actually they aren't all that similar ....i wonder if i am the only one who finds it wierd that jamal crawford takes it to the hole more than kurt thomas.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> actually they aren't all that similar ....i wonder if i am the only one who finds it wierd that jamal crawford takes it to the hole more than kurt thomas.


no,its perfectly normal for your 2 guard who avoids contacy to take it to the hole more than your power foward/center..ZEKE??????????????????????????????


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

disgruntledKNICKfan said:


> i wonder if i am the only one who finds it wierd that jamal crawford takes it to the hole more than kurt thomas.


Well when you consider that Kurt hits his jumper at a .470 clip vs Crawford's .400, while setting perimeter screens for Marbury, I'd say it's right Crawford needs to take it in more.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

son of oakley said:


> Well when you consider that Kurt hits his jumper at a .470 clip vs Crawford's .400, while setting perimeter screens for Marbury, I'd say it's right Crawford needs to take it in more.


i never said crawford didn't need to take it in more, because he does need to .

what i am saying is that kurt needs to take it in more than crawford does, since he apparently is even more allergic to the rim .

i doubt you'll find many starting power forwards who shoot a higher % of their shots from the outside.

p.s. factoring 3 point shots (in efg%) crawford actually shoots better from out there than thomas....and yet still takes it in more.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

disgruntledKNICKfan said:


> p.s. factoring 3 point shots (in efg%) crawford actually shoots better from out there than thomas....and yet still takes it in more.


btw,thats a very overlooked stat...if a guy shoots 40% from 3 and 55% from inside the arc,you want that guy hoisting bombs as much as possible..for the non mathematically inclined,just multiply 3pt% x 1.5 and you will get the equivalnt 2pt%...


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

disgruntledKNICKfan said:


> i never said crawford didn't need to take it in more, because he does need to .
> 
> what i am saying is that kurt needs to take it in more than crawford does, since he apparently is even more allergic to the rim .
> 
> ...



That's fine, and I'm not saying our PF shouldn't take it in more either. However, at least Kurt is doing something while he floats out there. Since virtually Marbury's entire offensive reperitiore, from scoring to distributing, is based on taking a screen from a Kurt and setting up an open jumper to him, or driving straight down the pike for a score, or collapsing the D for a dish... it's useful having a bigman to draw his big defender out from the lane, and setting a screen, and hitting a shot. It still serves the offense. Not sure how well Jamal's relatively low percentages, and little else, serves it.



truth said:


> btw,thats a very overlooked stat...if a guy shoots 40% from 3 and 55% from inside the arc,you want that guy hoisting bombs as much as possible..for the non mathematically inclined,just multiply 3pt% x 1.5 and you will get the equivalnt 2pt%...



Good point, but how do you calculate how many of the ~63% that miss are long rebounds and fast break opportunities for the opponent, vs how many of the missed interior shots are putback scores by your own team?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

son of oakley said:


> That's fine, and I'm not saying our PF shouldn't take it in more either. However, at least Kurt is doing something while he floats out there. Since virtually Marbury's entire offensive reperitiore, from scoring to distributing, is based on taking a screen from a Kurt and setting up an open jumper to him, or driving straight down the pike for a score, or collapsing the D for a dish... it's useful having a bigman to draw his big defender out from the lane, and setting a screen, and hitting a shot. It still serves the offense. Not sure how well Jamal's relatively low percentages, and little else, serves it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


some would say its more important to have a power forward be able to convert in the lane . and for that power forward to do it more often.

marbury is very capable of driving and dishing not just to the perimeter, but also in the paint.

marbury has tailored his game to fit kurt , not the other way around, he didn't have amare sitting outside after setting picks, or jayson williams in NJ, or kevin garnett in minny , he had them rolling and dished off to them. and it was very effective . only in new york is it primarily a pick and pop instead of a pick and roll.

this past season 71% of his assists were made jumpshots

the season before last season as a knick 73% of his assists were made jumpshots

but as a sun that season it was only 55%...marbury's desire to fit in with his teammates is really been overlooked, the primary scorers he plays with now are jumpshooters so he drives and kicks more and his team doesn't have the finishers that suns team did in amare and marion , where he might have before looked to drive the lane and dish off to a finisher cutting to the basket...but outside of sweetney who on the knicks dives into the lane after setting a pick?

the knicks really weren't run out of many games or run back on very much after a crawford 3 ...he and marbury got back, because they were usually back when they took the shot...and drifted back after the shot .

more problems came when they drove to the hoop and a small forward didn't rotate back to protect them (JYD and ariza like to crash for off. rebounds...who knows what TT was doing) if the knicks didn't retain possesion it often gave way to 3 on 1 and 2 on 1 fast breaks.

and guards who hit a decent % from the outside provide spacing , also helping a penetrating guard like marbury from a collapsing defense...and make teams pay when they do collapse.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*I so disagree with you...*

Truth and I have had several disagreements about the validity of statistics as anything more than a tool to be used as PART of an analysis. In the case of the Suns vs Knicks, Marbury did not have the jumpshooters to pitch to, therefore they would not have been effective, therefore the % would be lower. What we don't know is whether or not he was passing to them and they were missing them. I have seen him play alot and I don't EVER recall him getting guys easy baskets inside; he's a drive and dish OUT kind of PG. He would be a perfect 2 if he could shoot better and could play without the ball, but he can't.

There is a reason that he has moved around so much. I will speculate that his talent seduces but that his actual results do not live up to expectations. There appears to be a very real shortage of guys stepping up and saying they enjoyed playing with him.....THAT says more than ANY statistic.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: I so disagree with you...*



alphadog said:


> Truth and I have had several disagreements about the validity of statistics as anything more than a tool to be used as PART of an analysis. In the case of the Suns vs Knicks, Marbury did not have the jumpshooters to pitch to, therefore they would not have been effective, therefore the % would be lower. What we don't know is whether or not he was passing to them and they were missing them. I have seen him play alot and I don't EVER recall him getting guys easy baskets inside; he's a drive and dish OUT kind of PG. He would be a perfect 2 if he could shoot better and could play without the ball, but he can't.
> 
> There is a reason that he has moved around so much. I will speculate that his talent seduces but that his actual results do not live up to expectations. There appears to be a very real shortage of guys stepping up and saying they enjoyed playing with him.....THAT says more than ANY statistic.


i use stats as a back up of the points i make in my posts .

for instance i think kurt should take it to the hoop more so i looked it up and 89% of his shots were jumpshots...anyone can spout an opinion, but without something to illustrate why that point was made or the use of it. the original statement or point of the statement falls flat.

marbury can either way pick and roll or pick and pop or in which he gets in the lane and dishes out to the perimeter.

time has shown he doesn't try to fit round pegs in square holes .

in minn. before garnett was such a dead eye jumpshooter , he rolled and marbury found him... alot...he also had googs who mixed it up with jumpshots and rolled they were really a pick and roll team as much as the knicks are now..

in new jersey it was different they had a mix of both post players who couldn't really shoot and they rolled but the small forward and shooting guard position were good jumpshooters and there he did both find the post players on the interior and the perimeter players on the outside.

i've already gone over new york and pho. and the suns do have guys who can jumpshots ...marion can hit a J and Joe johnson is an excellent jumpshooter....but the suns were more effective closer to the basket and thats where marbury's passes went more often.

you may not like stats ...but they are the storytellers of past events (that and game recaps which no one cares to go through) ...they may not always tell the whole story , but depending on the stat and the situation they can be pretty accurate. ...far more accurate than a random opinion with nothing to back it up.


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