# pistons fans are a disgrace



## mr.ankle20 (Mar 7, 2004)

*pistons fans*

Did anyone see the fans throw drinks at the players


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

That was appalling.

I would have said that each and every one of them should be punished to the fullest extent of the law, but then I realized that they all live in Greater Detroit. That's punishment enough.


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## mr.ankle20 (Mar 7, 2004)

:laugh:


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

That brawl had more drama than any title fight of the past 8 years.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

That was nuts.


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## remlover (Jan 22, 2004)

Unbelieveable. I cant believe what im watching on espnews.

Both the fan(s) and the Pacers players deserve severe punishment. 

Just watching the highlights there are SOOOO f'ed up things going on. 

Stephen Jackson and O'neal will get long vacations. 

Artest jumping into the stands was just stupid. When i saw the first highlight w/ Artest laying on teh scorers bench (i ddint know the final endgame) i thought Artest was acting smart staying out of it.

Artest should have pointed the finger at the fan and the thing would have ended there...


Stephen Jackson acted like a punk..on the court he was looking to fight, then once the melee went into the stands, Jackson goes in there swinging.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

They showed Lanier? basically dragging Artest into the locker-room in a HEADLOCK.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Jackson and O'Neal were way out of line, but people in the stands were throwing stuff at them. I hope those people get punished, too.

And Ben Wallace deserves 7 games out of this. What a wild overreaction on his part. Take your azz-whupping like a man next time, Ben.


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## remlover (Jan 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> Jackson and O'Neal were way out of line, but people in the stands were throwing stuff at them. I hope those people get punished, too.
> 
> And Ben Wallace deserves 7 games out of this. What a wild overreaction on his part. Take your azz-whupping like a man next time, Ben.


Wallace deserves @ least 5 games.

Did you see Artest leaving the court and a fan in a white Pistons jersey wanted to start somethign w/ artest...artest took a swing at him, then Oneal came in when the fan was on his knees and nailied w/ a fist to a face.

Wow. totally speechless. Certain fans should get arrested, players should be definitely be suspended.

What was up w/ Stephen Jackson? That guy wnted to fight


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

Very few people took the high road here. I'm not sure that the intital response by the ESPN crew of saying that Ben Wallace started the thing is on target, because they're letting Artest off the hook -- that was a shove in the closing moments of a game that wasn't even close, while Ben Wallace was in the air. And c'mon, this is Artest. I think trying to lay the blame on someone excuses everyone else a little bit that's not right IMO, as everyone was doing something wrong here.

And what's with the ESPN guys acting like a fan assaulted Artest? A plastic cup of beer was thrown on his chest, was that really going to hurt him? Does that excuse him running up in the stands and attacking someone? If anything, that's when things went from your typical basketball bark and no bite affair to something where people get hurt.

Then Artest clocks some fan that was down on the court, good stuff. O'neal hits him while he's down. Beautiful. Doesn't let the fans throwing stuff at them off the hook, but it's not like I feel sorry for those two either.

And what was Stephen Jackson doing? Rasheed, some of the Pacer's guys and personnel are all up there trying to break things up while Stephen Jackson is running around throwing pucnhes. What a dip****, way to escalate things.

If it sounds like I'm singling out Artest or letting anyone else off the hook, I just want to clarify that this post is mostly born in repsonse to the ESPN guys' reaction. No one is excused here.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> Jackson and O'Neal were way out of line, but people in the stands were throwing stuff at them. I hope those people get punished, too.


No more than two game suspension. 



> And Ben Wallace deserves 7 games out of this.


Um...no. What he did was no worse than what Brenda Haywood or AD did. 

Of course it will be graded unfairly, because of what it precipitated.


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## remlover (Jan 22, 2004)

I agree Mongolian.

ESPN spent the time i saw acosting the fans...deservedly so, but Pacers players going into the stands was where it went totally wrong.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> Jackson and O'Neal were way out of line, but people in the stands were throwing stuff at them. I hope those people get punished, too.


No more than two game suspension. 



> And Ben Wallace deserves 7 games out of this.


Um...no. What he did was no worse than what Brenda Haywood or AD did. 

Of course it will be graded unfairly, because of what it precipitated.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Jim Gray just interviewed the Pissedons president . . . Gray's contention is that the security behaved really oddly after the fight started. They completely turned their attention away from the fans, which was potentially very dangerous.

The president gave some lame excuse that security waits for a sign from the officials or somesuch and that sign never came.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

Oh my. That was crazy. I was especially amused to see the Piston fan at the end of the melee flinch at Artest and then recieve right from Ron and a running right from Oneal.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Just watched a super slow mo...the Pacers should lose their season for this.

But ESPN is blaming the fans.

No arrests. The Pacers are being allowed to leave Detroit...


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## mr.ankle20 (Mar 7, 2004)

i thought Jim Grey was going to cry when they were talking to him


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

I want Artest back on the Bulls:heart: 

That fight made my evening. Dumbass fans deserve it.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Jeez, the ESPN News crew is basically doing emergency PR for the NBA right now.

In a couple of the clips it looks like Artest, O'Neal, and Jackson are punching 15-year-old kids.

In the sequence where Artest initially goes into the stands, there isn't a uniformed security officer anywhere to be seen.

I am amazed at how some of the fans didn't back down from these guys, or tried to stop them from going after people.


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## remlover (Jan 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> Just watched a super slow mo...the Pacers should lose their season for this.
> 
> But ESPN is blaming the fans.
> ...


ESPN is blaming the fans 100%. Watching the replays i dont know how you cant suspend Pacers players for 10+games.

I cannot stand ESPN and their analysist stance of "what else is Artest going to do when someone throws beer at you?"


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## remlover (Jan 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> Jeez, the ESPN News crew is basically doing emergency PR for the NBA right now.


Well said, i agree 100%

Pacers players were fine until they went into the stands. And the initial reactions by ESPN about "what else are you going to do when someone throws beer at you?" i cannot believe this is a viable defense? 

Whoever threw that drink was a moron, but Artest jumping into the stands and his crazy sidekick SJax going in swinging is w hat escalated this situation into dangerous proportions.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

The Pistons president is out of his mind.

Is Rick Carlisle wearing a hairpiece?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> In a couple of the clips it looks like Artest, O'Neal, and Jackson are punching 15-year-old kids.












He wasn't even the one who threw anything.

He'll be a millionaire now.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Artest vs Mahorn:


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


:laugh: 

Caption: "Oh, ****"


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>L.O.B</b>!
> Oh my. That was crazy. I was especially amused to see the Piston fan at the end of the melee flinch at Artest and then recieve right from Ron and a running right from Oneal.


I'm curious if that results in some legal stuff. That was particularly brutal.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> ...


I know, right?


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Another light moment -- the Suge Knight lookalike inexplicably cold-cocking Fred Jones.


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## robert60446 (Nov 11, 2002)

It is the end of era. We will see many changes in NBA now. Mostly against fans (how close to the floor they can be and etc.).It is a sad day for NBA.:heart:


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Theres an arrest warrant out now---for Earl Boykins jump shot:


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>robert60446</b>!
> It is the end of era. We will see many changes in NBA now. Mostly against fans (how close to the floor they can be and etc.).It is a sad day for NBA.:heart:


It IS a sad day, but I don't look for drastic changes other than security staffing.

There just didn't seem to be enough security people there. Watch all the various fights and you don't see any security. 

The Knicks, presumably because of their unique concerns about terrorism, have a friggin ton of uniformed and non-uniformed security that blankets the perimeter of the court. The other 29 teams are going to have to follow suit.


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## Dan Rosenbaum (Jun 3, 2002)

.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)




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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

That was totally insane. I'm amazed that it went that far. I too and surprised at the spin the media is putting on this. The fans acted despicably but you just don't run out into the crowd and start beating the hell out of people. Especially paying fans! Hell, the guy Artest initially went after wasn't even the guy who doused him (as if that would kill him anyway). It was a cheap reaction by Wallace but not anymore so than we have all seen before.

There was this blurb at yahoo fantasy basketball about it (I was updating my roster since some guys won't be playing now)

Nov 20 The Pacers stole a victory on the road against the Pistons, but both teams will be sustaining significant losses after one of the worst brawls in NBA history spilled into the stands in Detroit. In the game's final minute, Pistons forward/center Ben Wallace took exception to a hard foul by Pacers forward Ron Artest and shoved him hard in the face. After several minutes of barking between both benches, a fan spilled a beverage on Artest from close range, and the volatile forward went off. He and teammate Stephen Jackson leapt into the stands and threw numerous punches in the crowd, and chaos ensued. Several spectators spilled onto the court, with one in particular exchanging blows with Artest and Pacers forward/center Jermaine O'Neal. As fights broke out across the arena, it took quite some time for officials and security to restore order and forcefully escort the players back to the locker room. 
Views: This was one of the wildest and most explosive scenes in the history of the NBA, and in all of sport for that matter. At one point, a chair came flying in at O'Neal and a crowd of people around him. There is no question that Artest, Jackson, O'Neal, Wallace, and likely other players will get significant suspensions. Several members of the media spent much of the aftermath calling out the Detroit fans and placing the onus on them for escalating the incident with their behavior. While we don't disagree that the fans' actions were disgraceful, we also consider it unacceptable for professional athletes to enter into the stands and take aggressive actions against fans unless their security is significantly threatened. The chair-throwing episode and chaos that followed the initial incident aside, we're fairly certain that Ron Artest can handle a bit of water, soda, or (brace yourself) beer on his body without fearing for his safety. The fans' behavior was completely uncalled for, but if Artest and Jackson do not take it upon themselves to fight the tens of thousands of Pistons fans in attendance, we probably wouldn't be talking about this right now. We have a feeling the NBA may also side with the folks paying thousands of dollars to sit courtside.


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## airety (Oct 29, 2002)

As a fan of the game...

I'm siding with the Pacers. Artest committed a stupid, hard foul. Worth flagarant points. Worth a mouth off. Not worth Ben Wallace's ridiculous blowup.

On top of that, Artest then lays on the scorers table trying to stay out of things and be peaceful. With the problems this guy has had, after taking a shove like that, he did the most responsible and applaudible thing I have ever seen.

However, the fans were absolutely deplorable. In about 99 out of 100 matters I'll take the side of the fan over the NBA, players, and teams. Not here. The fact is, the fans were abusing their "protection" of being in the stands by physically abusing the players. You do NOT throw beer at someone. It is extremely degrading.

That said, the Pacers going into the stands was understandable, but not professional. Those involve deserve a few games' suspension.

However, I want to see criminal charges against every fan involved. Including the ones that stormed the court. It's like going to the zoo, then throwing stuff at a lion. Later, you run into the lions' cage and taunt it.

You deserve everything you get. If another teams' fans did this to the Bulls, I don't care if they are 0-71. I want to be on a bus immediately to get over there and defend my players. If the Bulls fans did it, it'd be ok. If they are like the players, every throw would be out of bounds by miles. And if what I hear is true, the fans would probably turn on the ice cream man first.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

I can't believe so many people are actually siding with the players on this one. One beer was initially thrown at Artest. A beer in what was clearly a plastic cup, no less. All he has to do at that point is stand up, find the guy who did it, point him out to security and we avoid EVERYTHING else that happened. Instead, he lets his temper get the most of him and charges into the stands after what appears to be a minor and starts attacking him. Then, Jackson (absolute punk) comes in after him and the rest, as the cliche goes, is history.

Did the fan provoke Artest by throwing a beer? Yes. Was he absolutely wrong and a total ****ing moron for doing it? Of course. But, Artest should NOT have gone into the stands. It's called logic, people. Self-defense is one thing, but he was hit with a PLASTIC BEER CUP. Sane, rational people do not start pummeling someone for throwing a beer at them. Point him out, get him arrested, make it so he can never come back to the Palace, etc. You don't have to go into the stands and fight. That's just irrational and dumb.

Everything that happened after that was just chaos. Jermaine O'Neal (bigger punk than SJax? hard to say) coldcocks a fan as he's on his knees FROM THE SIDE. A 7-foot pro basketball player blindsided a fan while he was on his knees. I've heard the word cowardly used tonight to describe the fan who threw the beer, but O'Neal deserves that adjective the most. Oh, and Jonathan Bender also punched that same fan.

Artest should get suspended for a long, long time, along with Jackson, O'Neal and Bender. Wallace should obviously be suspended, too (after all, it seemed the towel throw might have been the only reason it all got started up a second time). 

The thing that most annoyed me about this is the ESPN studio crew all sticking their mouths as far up the players' asses as they could go all night. I mean, they weren't even blaming them a bit. It was all about the fans "crossing the line." It took Joe Dumars calling them and basically telling them they were idiots for them to back off of their stance a bit. They're ridiculous.

(The guy who inexplicably started coldcocking Fred Jones was just insane. Fred Jones was just standing there trying to break it up. What the hell was that about? It's like the guy was thinking "I have a chance to be part of this. Where's the nearest NBA player I can blindside. Oooh, there's one! *whack*.")

Wow, what a mess!


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

I do not understanf the ESPN spin on this thing, it seems like they are saying that if another fan throws a beer at a player, that me, as a fan can expect to be attacked? I mean do they even realize that the guy who Artest attacked was not even the one who threw the beer? How is that justified? They are acting like these are zoo animals or something.


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## Chicago N VA (Oct 31, 2003)

I'm sorry I am with the Pacers on this one!!!

I will never let ANYONE THROW A CHAIR, BEER, WATER OR SPIT ON ME and I will walk away from that.

That's the highest form of disrespect. ALL OF THE DWEEBS who was involved in the stands.. wouldn't have the heart to do that crap one on one outside of that scene.

I don't blame Artest for cold cocking that fan on the court.. at that point Artest didn't know what that fan had up is sleeve.

Too all the nerdy/LOSER Detroit fans who thought they had a 8 mile moment.. BOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MongolianDeathCloud</b>!
> I do not understanf the ESPN spin on this thing, it seems like they are saying that if a fan throws a beer at a player, that me, as a fan can expect to be attacked? I mean do they even realize that the guy who Artest attacked was not even the one who threw the beer? How is that justified? They are acting like these are zoo animals or something.


Artest did not attack the nerdy looking guy. A guy in a hat, was the one that threw the beer at him, Artest was going after him but got pushed by that guy into the nerdy guy. Artest hit that guy weak, no punches, just trying to stop from trampling that guy. Artest's agent/lawyers probaly already worked out a settlement with that guy and explained its an accident.

Good thing Eddy Curry was not involved in this or fans would have been hit in the nuts left and right.


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## Dan Rosenbaum (Jun 3, 2002)

I think it is unproductive to argue who is more to blame. Both the fans and players were in the wrong in this situation. That said, I personally have more sympathy for the players in this situation. 

I have always resented fans who heap abuse on players. There is a sense of entitlement that fans like this feel that I find disgusting. It is the kind of behavior that in a small way helps me understand how human beings are capable of the really atrocious acts in human history. There is some point at which fans like this forget that the player or coach or referee that they are abusing is a human being.

The players will pay dearly for their actions. The fans most likely will not. Many who resent rich, predominately black NBA players will not be overly bothered by lack of justice, but I am. I don't think buying a ticket gives someone the right to stop treating other people like human beings.


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

*Who knows what the fan said?*

The fan might have called him a racially sensitive word. It wouldn't be the first time this has happened to Artest. Hopefully things will change, NBA players take way too much crap. They are professionals but before that they are humans too, and nobody deserves to be thrown a beer at. 

That is almost degrading as having someone spit on you. For every action their is a reaction, its justa shame the worng fan took a beating.


But this was inevitable for too long Fans have abused their rights to stay in the stands and cheer and taunt with acceptable limits. Calling players racially sensitive terms or throwing stuff at them,


This is the same type of behavior that caused that fan and his son to jump the innocent first base coach.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> 
> 
> Artest did not attack the nerdy looking guy. A guy in a hat, was the one that threw the beer at him, Artest was going after him but got pushed by that guy into the nerdy guy. Artest hit that guy weak, no punches, just trying to stop from trampling that guy. Artest's agent/lawyers probaly already worked out a settlement with that guy and explained its an accident.


Are you kidding? #1 Artest clearly went after that guy and wasn't pushed by anyone, but rather lost his balance going through the stands. #2 The guy you're blaming for throwing the beer and supposedly pushing Artest actually had both hands in his pockets when Artest started coming up. He didn't get involved until after Artest was done with the first guy. 

Not sure how we could have watched the same video.


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

Dan nailed the head, the type of fans who were involved are typically those who say these players make money, they can handle it.


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## Ice Nine (Apr 3, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you kidding? #1 Artest clearly went after that guy and wasn't pushed by anyone, but rather lost his balance going through the stands. #2 The guy you're blaming for throwing the beer and supposedly pushing Artest actually had both hands in his pockets when Artest started coming up. He didn't get involved until after Artest was done with the first guy.
> ...


Check the video again. The guy who allegedly threw the beer pushed Artest into the, for lack of a better word, dweeb.


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you kidding? #1 Artest clearly went after that guy and wasn't pushed by anyone, but rather lost his balance going through the stands. #2 The guy you're blaming for throwing the beer and supposedly pushing Artest actually had both hands in his pockets when Artest started coming up. He didn't get involved until after Artest was done with the first guy.
> ...



you're wrong look at the NBA board and the .gif in one of the posts. the culprit pushed Artest.


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## texan (Jul 10, 2003)

This was the most classless display I have ever seen, and I can honestly say it was almost completely the fans faults. First off, it wasn' that hard of a foul, and Wallace really overreacted. THen it would have been done but some dumbass fan felt like he should get involved. If I was Artest, I would have done exactly the same thing. He had every right to do what he did. The only suprising punch to me was O'neal's punch. Mild suspensions should be handed out(I say 5 game suspensions for O'Neal, Wallace, Artest and Jackson), and every fan involved should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I thought that was really disgraceful by Pistons fans.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)




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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

I am trying to look at things as if i were the people involved.

with that being said i have to defend ron artest on this one, true he went after the wrong guy , but that guy took responsibilty for it, so he got a fight for his trouble, the guy who threw the beer snuck behind artest and hit him a couple of times, a truly cowardly act in my opinion.

i've never picked a fight in my life but i have been in some, i consider a beer being heaved on me pretty good justification for going at someone , if you dont want any trouble you dont start any 

that simple , its not rocket science, if someone starts stuff with you unprovoked its another thing entirely. But Artest was provoked, being an NBA player isn't a reason for being a target for others no job is, unless it is literally in your job description and its not for a professional basketball player . Nobody should be disrespected just because of some sense of entitlement, its wrong when someone like randy moss did what he did to that meter maid last year and it was wrong tonight when those fans went after a player for a percieved slight of some kind or maybe they wanted to just be in the role of antagonist.

the fight on the playing floor was not a problem of mistaken identity those 2 characters who jumped artest were on the court and were clearly up to no good and ron went after one of them , the one who was in front with his hands up as if he were going to do something until artest saw him, the other guy jumped in and for his trouble a moment later jermaine oneal hit him pretty darn hard, getting what he deserved in my opinion.

i fully back artest on this one, but he will be punished severely by the league as will many of the pacers , in fact i dont think we'll see their roster intact until after the new year, steven jackson wont get off easy at all, and neither will chuck person. and it will be rightfully so, but the instigators of this whole mess should be behind bars at least for a little while.


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## airety (Oct 29, 2002)

An interesting thought: If the NBA comes down extremely hard on the Pacers, I wouldn't be surprised if players refused to play in Detroit. Heck, if entire teams refused. 

We've talked about the players' responsibility, and the fans' responsibility in this matter... but the fact is, the Pistons' organization is extremely guilty here. Your security has to be strong enough to make sure NOBODY EVER TOUCHES THE COURT, and that anyone who throws objects onto the court is ARRESTED IMMEDIATELY.

Honestly, the more I watch this, the more furious I get with the Pistons and the fans. When you see the look of fear on that little girl's face, and her father just trying to explain to her "It's ok." And then you have the young kid crying while another slightly older kid (no older than 10) hugs him and tries to comfort him.

Detroit should be happy I'm not in charge of the NBA. I'd punish that organization (on top of the players, and fans who should be arrested) so fast and so hard they'll want to join the CBA.


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## Salvaged Ship (Jul 10, 2002)

Anyone have a location for the video yet?


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## Ice Nine (Apr 3, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>airety</b>!
> An interesting thought: If the NBA comes down extremely hard on the Pacers, I wouldn't be surprised if players refused to play in Detroit. Heck, if entire teams refused.


I concur. I believe there will be heavy penalites levied against both sides: Indiana's to serve as a warning against players, Detroit's as a warning against fans.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

Clearly the fans are at fault, but the Pacers are worse. The Indiana Pacers are <b>PROFESSIONAL</b> athletes. Ron Artest also horribly overreacted. Not only did he allow his temper to get the best of him, he committed criminal assault against an innocent fan. You guys can talk all you want about what you would've done, but we don't live in an anarchist state. The fan that threw the beer would've been prosecuted according to the law. <b>The moment Artest ran into the crowds he crossed the line from victim to assailant. Self defense is no longer a valid excuse.</b>

And let's not get started on JO's sucker punch. He wasn't at risk, nor was the fan <b>that was on the ground</b> a legitimate threat to his safety. ALL PARTIES involved, including the Pacers participating, should be charged. I just find it unbelieveable that ESPN completely took the side of the players. Great, they get heckled. I guess that's part of the reason why they get paid so much. Kids can die in Iraq for 20 grand a year. Surely you can handle some heckling for several hundred thousand - several million a year.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>airety</b>!
> As a fan of the game...
> 
> I'm siding with the Pacers. Artest committed a stupid, hard foul. Worth flagarant points. Worth a mouth off. Not worth Ben Wallace's ridiculous blowup.
> ...


best post of all, i agree 100%. i was thinking the samething. if i was artest, i would have done the exact samething. possibly worse. 
clearly, artest was already trying his best holding back against ben wallace. he was just about to explode, but he held back. then that freaking beer just totally messed up everything.

i say give artest and those involved a max of 5 games supsension. NO MORE!! sometimes you just gotta stand up to something thats right.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>airety</b>!
> We've talked about the players' responsibility, and the fans' responsibility in this matter... but the fact is, the Pistons' organization is extremely guilty here. Your security has to be strong enough to make sure NOBODY EVER TOUCHES THE COURT, and that anyone who throws objects onto the court is ARRESTED IMMEDIATELY.


I'm sorry, but I fail to see how the Piston organization is at fault here. How is their security different from that of the rest of the league? Fact is that there was no opportunity to arrest the offending fan. Artest ran in there right away and started throwing punches. Where was security to step in? The professional in this situation sparked this maylay. Like I've said before, the fans are at fault but the responsibility of a professional is to deal with these situations and keep your cool. The players lives were not at risk until Artest charged the stands. I don't see how self defense can be used as a valid defense in this case.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Sith</b>!
> 
> 
> best post of all, i agree 100%. i was thinking the samething. if i was artest, i would have done the exact samething. possibly worse.
> ...


What's right? Severely injuring someone because they threw a beer at you? Animals fight when they absolutely need to and their lives are at risk. Until Artest ran into the crowd, none of the players were at risk. Artest, SJax, and JO should be suspended for at least 10 games and criminal charges should be pressed against them.


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

He's a human before a professional. Im so tired of people saying this bull****. He is a human first and no one deserves to be treated like an animal or called the things Ron is, no matter how carazy one may think he is. 


Lil' Jon said it. "Don't start no sh1t, wont be no sh1t!"


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## Ice Nine (Apr 3, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>sp00k</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but I fail to see how the Piston organization is at fault here. How is their security different from that of the rest of the league? Fact is that there was no opportunity to arrest the offending fan. Artest ran in there right away and started throwing punches. Where was security to step in? The professional in this situation sparked this maylay. Like I've said before, the fans are at fault but the responsibility of a professional is to deal with these situations and keep your cool. The players lives were not at risk until Artest charged the stands. I don't see how self defense can be used as a valid defense in this case.


And how are those fans going to be disciplined? By prosecuting everybody who bombarded the Pacers with beer, coke, and popcorn? By erecting a plexiglass bubble over the court? By increasing the arena security ten-fold? The simplest way is to punish the Detroit Pistons; it will cause the fans to police themselves.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DaFuture</b>!
> He's a human before a professional. Im so tired of people saying this bull****. He is a human first and no one deserves to be treated like an animal or called the things Ron is, no matter how carazy one may think he is.
> 
> 
> Lil' Jon said it. "Don't start no sh1t, wont be no sh1t!"


And what is human? To inflict pain upon someone for throwing a beer? As far as I know, no one in the history of the world has died from having a plastic cup full of beer thrown at them. Security would've arrested the individual and charged him accordingly. 

BTW, a professional deals with these situations in a <b>PROFESSIONAL</b> manner. Artest wasn't at risk until he took the initiative and ran into the stands. And let's not forget that he ATTACKS an innocent bystander. Sorry he got hit with a beer, but this whole situation would have never come up if he didn't rush the stands.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ice Nine</b>!
> 
> And how are those fans going to be disciplined? By prosecuting everybody who bombarded the Pacers with beer, coke, and popcorn? By erecting a plexiglass bubble over the court? By increasing the arena security ten-fold? The simplest way is to punish the Detroit Pistons; it will cause the fans to police themselves.


There is video, there are security guards, there are witnesses, and there are police. How are the Pistons responsible for some unruly fans? Imagine you get punished for a crime by association. A fight breaks out at your party which is instigated by some individuals that you don't know. Yet you get fined and punished. Is that justice? **** NO IT ISN'T. The Pistons didn't accept this behavior, nor did they instigate it. I don't see why they should be punished for it. Punish the assailants, don't blame the organization.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

my god u guys forgot the MOST IMPORTANT factor. Artest was ALREADY trying his VERY BEST to hold back. he was about to explode just at about anything... now someone throws a beer at him.....???? ?????? ?????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Sith</b>!
> my god u guys forgot the MOST IMPORTANT factor. Artest was ALREADY trying his VERY BEST to hold back. he was about to explode just at about anything... now someone throws a beer at him.....???? ?????? ?????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????


So we give him a pass because he doesn't get violent right away? I can get pretty angry sometimes too. Do I get praise everytime I don't hit someone? Since when do the rules differ from person to person? 

I can't stress this enough - Artest is a professional. He is more than justly compensated for what he does. Soldiers, firemen, and police officers don't come close to making the kind of money athletes make. But I'm pretty sure all these professions are placed at much greater risk than an NBA player. The heckling comes with the territory. The millions they make should be more than enough justification to deal with this.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

Has it been so long that people have forgotten Kermit Washington? Remember when Rudy Tomjanovich might have *died*?

I think it's easier to justify the acts of violence because no one got seriously hurt, but what if someone did? What if that guy that Jermaine O'neal attacked had been seriously injured or even died?

Don't get me wrong, I feel the same way about the fans that instigated violence. And I am entirely against the fans who shower abuse on the players. However I feel that the Pacers players should have just let security handle this and move to either the centero f the court or the locker room if they felt threatened; initiating a riot by attacking fans is clearly wreckless and dangerous.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>sp00k</b>!
> 
> 
> And what is human? To inflict pain upon someone for throwing a beer? As far as I know, no one in the history of the world has died from having a plastic cup full of beer thrown at them. Security would've arrested the individual and charged him accordingly.
> ...


i got a question 

what is professional about getting hit in the chest with a beer while you are laying on your back?

Is it in your job description?

its not in mine.

there is the man you are at work , and there is the man working, no one has the right to disrespect you at work or lesire and the fact that artest was at his place of work doesn't change the fact he is still a man, he defended his manhood .

this isn't a case of someone accidentally scuffing his nike's some one chucked a beer at him 20 feet while he was minding his own business , that being said he got the wrong guy initially , (that guy did attack him from behind later and artest got him at that point) but if you want to see who is right , go get a cup fill it with beer and find some 25 year old and throw some beer on him...see what happens , unless you chose exceptionally wisely i am pretty sure that person will not turn the other cheek and act "professional".


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> but if you want to see who is right , go get a cup fill it with beer and find some 25 year old and throw some beer on him...see what happens , unless you chose exceptionally wisely i am pretty sure that person will not turn the other cheek and act "professional".


I dunno, if there were police and security nearby and a few thousand potentially hostile witnesses, I would expect alot of people would just let the authority handle it.


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## Dan Rosenbaum (Jun 3, 2002)

Not just the Pistons organization but the entire league is partially responsible for this brawl by allowing fans to taunt and abuse players like they do. With no history of disciplining fans for reaping abuse on players, coaches, etc., fans have gotten the idea that anything goes.

Add into that mix hundreds of players, some of whom are pretty excitable, and this was an accident waiting to happen. That does not excuse Artest and the other Pacers for going into the stands. But by glorifying Jack Nicholson berating players and coaches on opposing teams, the league should not be surprised that the WWF type behavior they have allowed their fans escalated into an ugly, ugly scene.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MongolianDeathCloud</b>!
> 
> 
> I dunno, if there were police and security nearby and a few thousand potentially hostile witnesses, I would expect alot of people would just let the authority handle it.


at the time that was what artest was doing(in regards to the wallace altercation) , but the guy just went over line , 2 wrongs dont make a right but if you wrong someone you shouldn't complain if were wronged in return.

and since that did happen the authorities obviously weren't doing their job because the only people who stopped artest really was rick mahorn , i didn't see any athorities pull him off of anyone.


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

Bulls looking good for 2nd to last in the Central now, eh lads?


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Oh my ... I've seen right now the video on Espn ... just terrific :laugh: 

Even in the chaotic european arenas is hard to find a so trashy riot


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

THe fans had it coming. I would be really disappointed in the NBA if any Pacer were suspended for that. This is a message to the fans, if you cross the line, prepare to protect yourself. No decent human being would subject some of the players to the taunts that they do.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

the fans and players both behaved like thugs last night.

that **** makes me sick. 

chaos.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ice Nine</b>!
> 
> Check the video again. The guy who allegedly threw the beer pushed Artest into the, for lack of a better word, dweeb.


Wow, you guys are right. I don't know how I missed that. Sorry BabyBlueSlugga for getting that fact wrong. The guy does push Artest, but Artest _was_ still going after the guy and when he got his balance, he still tried to punch him, but was held back by the guy in the hat and I think another guy.

I think all the disagreement here is caused by simply the difference in opinion of what someone should do if you're hit with a beer or provoked in some other way. Clearly, some of you are generally quicker to take something to a physical level, which is just a difference in thinking. Depending on the situation, of course, if someone threw a beer at me in my life, I don't think I'd go after him and try to maul him. That's just me. I still think Artest overreacted and should have never gone into the stands. Point the guy out, since he clearly thought he knew who it was, and have him kicked out and arrested. It would have prevented everythin else that happened, in my mind. But, he didn't and at least I've been able to watch the video about 796 times. Good times.


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## texan (Jul 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>sp00k</b>!
> 
> 
> So we give him a pass because he doesn't get violent right away? I can get pretty angry sometimes too. Do I get praise everytime I don't hit someone? Since when do the rules differ from person to person?
> ...


Yes he should be able to handle heckling, but throwing things at a player IS assault. Those just as easily could have been glass bottles, or sometime harmful(maybe like a chair? hmm). And Artest had every right to protect himself. Ya going into the stands was stupid, but letting people throw stuff at you is not in his job desrciption, nor should it be, no matter how much money he makes.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Wow, some great posts on this topic, everyone.

After a night of reflection and some early media post-mortem (the announcers on the ESPN radio station in NY want Artest gone for the season, Stephen Jackson suspended for 40 games, etc.), I'm pretty much sticking to my theory from last night -- there wasn't even close to being a sufficient amount of security for an NBA game at the Palace last night.

I know the Pistons president and Auburn Hills police chief were in full spin mode last night, saying they'd had an incident-free NBA Finals and that all patrons pass through scanners. That's irrelevant. When a full-scale brawl broke out with a half-empty arena, there just weren't enough bodies to quell the disturbance. 

Dan has hit something right on the head -- the yahoo in the third deck screaming his head off at players is doing so in vain. But on the dozen or so occasions I've been lucky enough to have courtside or near-courtside seats in Chicago, MSG, NJ, Philadelphia, and Atlanta, I've been absolutely shocked by what some of the fans have said to the players (the "n" word is apparently a staple at the Delta Center, e.g.). If such verbal abuse happened outside of the confines of a sports arena, the abuser would be arrested. 

Were Artest, Jackson, and all the other Pacers wrong to go into the stands and to fight fans? Of course. But just the fact that they are NBA players doesn't mean they aren't going to react like any of us would. 

And Mongolian, you said the players should have just held back and let the security apparatus take care of things. Last night, the Pacers were well within their rights to think that their attackers wouldn't have been caught, and even that they may have continued to attack them until someone was seriously hurt. People were throwing chairs, for God's sake, and full beers/sodas/waters were raining down from the upper levels of the arena. 

Hopefully all NBA teams will revisit their security processes and maybe this'll lead to a dialogue that helps fans realize a ticket to a game isn't a license to verbally go postal on the players.


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## Chicago N VA (Oct 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> Wow, some great posts on this topic, everyone.
> 
> After a night of reflection and some early media post-mortem (the announcers on the ESPN radio station in NY want Artest gone for the season, Stephen Jackson suspended for 40 games, etc.), I'm pretty much sticking to my theory from last night -- there wasn't even close to being a sufficient amount of security for an NBA game at the Palace last night.
> ...


Good Post, I agree.


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## bigdbucks (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Chicago N VA</b>!
> I'm sorry I am with the Pacers on this one!!!
> 
> I will never let ANYONE THROW A CHAIR, BEER, WATER OR SPIT ON ME and I will walk away from that.
> ...


I'm sorry but you WILL and SHOULD walk away. The reason they make millions upon millions of dollars is to put up with the heckeling! This was an EXTREME case and the fan that threw that got out of hand. But I thought that one reason athletes made that much money was to put up with it. It comes with the territory and if you can't handle it then buh bye to you! I love Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson, but buh bye! to YOU! To Ron Artest....your just a bleepin idiot! You shouldn't be in the league in the first place. If athletes can't put up with the heckling and plastic cup throwing.....they are in the WRONG PROFESSION. 

ALSO.......The few Detroit fans that were involved in the bedlam.....you are a disgrace to all of the true NBA fans in the league. You pay for those tickets to watch the game. Not throw objects at players. YOU are NOT super athletes....so stay off the f'n court!


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

I have to side with PC Load Letter (and others) on this one.

To me, it seemed that if Artest just keeps his cool after being hit by the water bottle and lets security handle the fan who threw it, the incident ends right there. By losing control and charging into the stands, all hell broke loose.

I'm not excusing the fans by any means, and I agree with Dan Rosenbaum that fan heckling is allowed to go much farther than it should in many cases. But the bottom line is players absolutely cannot confront fans (unless the fans come onto the court or field as was the case when those two losers attacked the Royals coach at Sox Park a few years ago). Going into the stands to attack fans is absolutely and always the wrong thing to do, period. No good can ever come from it. If players at any time do not feel safe, the solution is for a coach to remove his team from the court to the locker room.


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## BullsAttitude (Jun 11, 2002)

Very good posts and opinions by everyone. I agree that no player should have anything thrown at them, I also agree no player should go into the stands to attack a fan. 

Artest snapped and should have done his best to keep his cool even with the beer being thrown at him. Now, Stephen Jackson really crossed the line by going into the stands and throwing punches, when he should have been trying to stop Artest. 

That is what is wrong with star athletes these days, they are spoiled, everything is giving to them starting in high school, and they fill they have the world in their hands. Giving them the freedom to do whatever they please. 

They don't have character anymore and they don't respect anything or anyone. Back in the day, players had to earn their money and the respect. Star athletes come in today acting like they deserve everything the franchises have to offer.

Does anybody think Michael, Magic, Larry, Mr. Clutch, the Big O, Wilt, or anyother star player would have? I don't think they would have cause they had respect for the game and what they earned.

Enough of my rant about star athletes, I do know very severe suspensions will be handed out but how do you punish the Detroit fans?

I think this is how you do it. In a game, the crowd can receive a technical foul, which can hurt the home team. Same type of punishment here but more severe. I believe if Detroit would end up tied with someone record wise, you give home court to the other team even if Detroit has the tie breaker. That's how you make the Detroit fans pay and learn a lesson. If you are going to act totally unprofessional and throw objects, you can cost your team dearly.

I know Detroit won last year without homecourt in the East Finals or Finals, but still it takes an advantage away from them. Do you think Detroit would like to face Miami with home court or without home court, how bout Indiana? Might sound crazy but I think it might work.

What does anybody else think?


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## BealeFarange (May 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>BullsAttitude</b>!
> Very good posts and opinions by everyone. I agree that no player should have anything thrown at them, I also agree no player should go into the stands to attack a fan.
> 
> Artest snapped and should have done his best to keep his cool even with the beer being thrown at him. Now, Stephen Jackson really crossed the line by going into the stands and throwing punches, when he should have been trying to stop Artest.
> ...


I think the homecourt idea is a good one, but I'm not so sure that you can call Stephen Jackson spoiled because he went into the stands. I realize this is a somewhat inflammatory position for me to take, but what I saw from Stephen Jackson last night was a damn fine teammate protecting his much maligned buddy. I mean, Artest is in the crowd being quickly outnumbered. I don't know if you saw this, but the guy who originally threw the bottle was holding Artest's arms back while the people in front of Artest were throwing things right in his face. Artest was wrong for going into the stands (though there isn't a lot of logical thinking going on when that many buttons have been pushed...) but if Jackson hadn't come to his defense, that crowd would have descended upon Ron en masse and it would NOT have been pretty. 

Jackson running in there scared the crowd back--even as they began feeling more comfortable approaching and physically attacking the intruding Artest--and I think prevented a larger part of the crowd from getting in on the act. That was mob violence there--I mean, what's with the chair throwing? The dumping of stuff on the players in the exit tunnel? Jackson bought Ron a little time so they could get back to the court and it's a good thing he did, if you ask me. 

If I were at that game, I would have been in major trouble. Any fan that I saw tossing a beer or popcorn or whatever on a player would have made me lose it. I would have gone nuts...these guys are just people. Yeah, the players have money, but don't tell me they felt ENTITLED to attack the fans. Bull. They're people who were being absolutely humiliated...no matter how much money you make and no matter what your professional role is supposed to be, you're still a human being first. None of us fans have the right to treat entertainers like anything less than human beings and, if we do, the fan/player relationship goes out the window. The player stops being a player, you stop being a fan: you're then just two people and you better be prepared for the consequences. 

And don't talk to me about "spoiled" in the case of those lowlife losers who were dumping things on Artest and even charged the floor. Do you have any idea how much seats that close to the court cost? Those people are incredibly wealthy and feel entitled to cross lines with the players. You want to break down the fourth wall, go ahead. Just know what you're getting into. 

I still can't believe those dudes dumping stuff on Jermain O'Neal and all that...TOTALLY SICK.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

*Breaking news: Artest, SJax, O'Neal and Ben Wallace all suspended indefinitely. CNN just reported it.*

This isn't a surprise or anything, but just the NBA making it show they're going to nip it in the bud until they're able to come up with what they think is the appropriate punishment. I'm guessing during next week, we'll find out an exact number of games all of them will be suspended.


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

Charles Barkley or Jason Kidd and Im not sure on Jordan, he is an arrogant guy, he wouldnt take nicely to haveing things thrown at him. 



You can pay anyone as much as you want but they will still respond like a human when attacked or they feel threatened.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> the fight on the playing floor was not a problem of mistaken identity those 2 characters who jumped artest were on the court and were clearly up to no good and ron went after one of them , the one who was in front with his hands up as if he were going to do something until artest saw him, the other guy jumped in and for his trouble a moment later jermaine oneal hit him pretty darn hard, getting what he deserved in my opinion.


The second guy? He was trying to help his friend. He'll get what he deserves...from O'Neals bank account.

Blaming it on people who resent rich Black players is somewhat assumptive...and no different than saying the fight occured because black NBA players are thugs.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> i got a question
> ...


The law says you are permitted to use enough force to stop the threat to your person, property or family. 

Unless the guy had 100 more cups,  Artests proper response should have been to jump to his feet, ID the guy...and call security after him.

Try beating someone down who throws a cup of beer at you in front of the police, and you'll have on handcuffs too.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BullsAttitude</b>!
> That is what is wrong with star athletes these days, they are spoiled, everything is giving to them starting in high school, and they fill they have the world in their hands. Giving them the freedom to do whatever they please.
> 
> They don't have character anymore and they don't respect anything or anyone. Back in the day, players had to earn their money and the respect. Star athletes come in today acting like they deserve everything the franchises have to offer.
> ...


Very cogent thinking. I agree.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> The second guy? He was trying to help his friend. He'll get what he deserves...from O'Neals bank account.
> ...


so its ok for the 2nd guy to help his friend and not o'neal to help his coach?(artest was gone by then and the fight was between the 2nd guy and chuck person)

jumping someone is jumping someone , and if the guy was big enough to get on the court and try to sneak in on artest, he was big enough to find out the hard way that it was stupid....by himself, without the aid of his friend

also when did i blame it on resentment of because rich black people?

i saw austin croshere get some violence handed to him , it could have been a ndbl game and my stance would have been the same. and that is when you cross the lines of player and spectator all you are left with is 2 or more men and you start something with another man dont cry if he wants to beat your butt for it.

i blame it on people thinking because they paid some $ to see a game it makes the players targets, no all it guarentees you is the right to see a game once the line is crossed dont look for the person you crossed to see a line when you just didn't.

life doesn't work that way.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

I have been really thinking about this and i think O'Neal is going to get a really major suspendsion as well. I have seen the clip several times. This fat guy is trying to get up and is almost off the ground when O'Neal flys in a hits him in the face.

Now mayge many here think that is OK but i don't. O'Neal was not defending himself or anyone else. He was only trying to hit that guy. Now i am old enough to remember when Kermit Washington hit Rudy T and almost killed him. If O'Neal does not slip right before he hits that guy it could have been the same thing. That big fat guy went to the hospital. O'Neal better get a lawyer and fast because he is going to be sued and unless he gets a jury that feels sorry for rich, spoiled, basketball players he is in deep ****tttt. O'Neal will be luck if he doesn't get 20 to 30 games.

david


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bigdbucks</b>!
> 
> 
> The reason they make millions upon millions of dollars is to put up with the heckeling! . . . . If athletes can't put up with the heckling and plastic cup throwing.....they are in the WRONG PROFESSION.


This is preposterous.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BullsAttitude</b>!
> That is what is wrong with star athletes these days, they are spoiled, everything is giving to them starting in high school, and they fill they have the world in their hands. Giving them the freedom to do whatever they please.
> 
> They don't have character anymore and they don't respect anything or anyone. Back in the day, players had to earn their money and the respect. Star athletes come in today acting like they deserve everything the franchises have to offer.
> ...


I love sentiments like these. Do you know why? I have a perfect solution for you that'll immediately put you at ease: just stop following professional and big-time college sports.

After all, whose fault is it that the salaries are astronomical and the egos planet-sized? It's our fault and no one else's. Every time you shell out $500 for four seats and a parking spot and a couple beers, you're making it worse. Every time you get expanded cable and pay your subscription fee for Comcast, you're making it worse. Every time you give a Kirk Hinrich onesie as a gift at a baby shower, you're making it worse. Every time you buy a Miller beer or patronize one of the Bulls' sponsors, you're making it worse.

What you should do is follow NCAA Div III sports. Or maybe even local high school or youth league games (although there you'll have to worry about parents killing the referees, or driving their cars through the gymnasium doors after a bad call). That way you'll get to enjoy the sport in its purest form and not worry about lining the pockets of these corrupt, amoral, animalistic pro athletes.

Sorry if this seems like I'm coming down harshly on you. I just can't stomach a lot of the sanctimony that's showing up in posts on this subject. If the ballplayers are that horrible and that selfish, why do you still watch?


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## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> Another light moment -- the Suge Knight lookalike inexplicably cold-cocking Fred Jones.


LOL! Fo sho. Fred Jones got the surprise of his life. Brotha in the white wasn't having it at all and Fred just got pummelled. How cowered after he got hit, too. LOL! The look on Fred's face was absolutely priceless. 

That's what happens when you go to the D, I guess. Amityville for real.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> so its ok for the 2nd guy to help his friend and not o'neal to help his coach?


The guy he hit wasn't threatening anyone.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I think Kneepad is closest to my thinking. One guy had it in his power to do the right thing, and he did the wrong thing.

Yeah, it' sucks to get beer thrown on you, but it seems to me that saying just because something bad happens it's understandable to lash out in an emotional and unreasonable way is something that's just as symptomatic of "society's ills" as unreasoning overly emotional fans who abuse players.

They're two sides of the same coin, because buying into the behavior of either group as "understandable" is fairly ridiculous in my mind. The only distinction I draw is that it was possible for one guy, who happens to be a guy who gets paid several million bucks to play a game, had the power to difuse the situation and show good judgement in the face of bad judgement. Instead, he responded with equally bad judgement.

Today I went up to Penn State to the PSU MSU football game. Being an MSU alum, I had Green on, and walking out of the game (after getting our asses kicked) I got some **** for it. It would have been entirely easy to follow my first instinct and deck the drunk guy who ran up in my face and screamed "Great GAME!!" but I didn't. I laughed, said yeah, yeah... etc. to the guy, and that was that. Now maybe it'd be understandable if I'd started a brawl in the middle of the group of 10,000 people walking out the stadium, but it also would have been pretty ****ing stupid and someone likely would have been seriously hurt.

From that perspective, starting the brawl would be about as understandable as killing someone for cutting you off on the road. That is, not understandable at all.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Its difficult to expect someone to make fully rational decisions when they are involved in an intense, emotional game of NBA basketball against a bitter rival.

Its even more difficult to expect someone to make fully rational decisions moments after being punched in the face by a tall, strong man with an out-of-control afro.

Add having some jerk throw crap at you while you are trying to cool down…. And rationality is thrown out the window… especially considering we’re talking about the less-than-rational on his best day Ron Artest.

The fans were jerks, cowards… and somewhat frightening really. The players were out of control as well… and equally scary. The whole scene disturbed me and made me consider how close society really teeters between order and chaos.

I think a discussion of who is more at fault will somehow absolve the party that is deemed less at fault, which shouldn’t happen, IMO.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> Its difficult to expect someone to make fully rational decisions when they are involved in an intense, emotional game of NBA basketball against a bitter rival.
> 
> Its even more difficult to expect someone to make fully rational decisions moments after being punched in the face by a tall, strong man with an out-of-control afro.
> ...


Yeah, that's a pretty valid point... what a freaking mess.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> The guy he hit wasn't threatening anyone.


yea the guy had just jumped ron artest and then was fighting with chuck person .

he is a peach of a guy , a real humanitarian.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> Its difficult to expect someone to make fully rational decisions when they are involved in an intense, emotional game of NBA basketball against a bitter rival.
> 
> Its even more difficult to expect someone to make fully rational decisions moments after being punched in the face by a tall, strong man with an out-of-control afro.
> ...


* "It's bad. As players we're told regardless of what happens on the court you can't go into the stands. You just can't do it. Do I think the fans should share some of the blame? Yeah. But as professionals, as NBA players, you cannot go into the stands." — Toronto coach Sam Mitchell.*


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> * "It's bad. As players we're told regardless of what happens on the court you can't go into the stands. You just can't do it. Do I think the fans should share some of the blame? Yeah. But as professionals, as NBA players, you cannot go into the stands." — Toronto coach Sam Mitchell.*


Sam Mitchell has spoken. Discussion over. Let's all move on to the next issue. 

EDIT: BTW, I agree with Sammy. I just don't see the need to create some kind of blame-assigning pie-chart. Almost everyone involved is at fault and was involved in the escalation. Even that crying little kid is to blame a little bit for being out past his bedtime.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> 
> 
> Sam Mitchell has spoken. Discussion over. Let's all move on to the next issue.


You're right.

If the players are banned from entering the stand, all the intensity emotions mumbo jumbo is just...mumbo jumbo.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> Its difficult to expect someone to make fully rational decisions when they are involved in an intense, emotional game of NBA basketball against a bitter rival.
> 
> Its even more difficult to expect someone to make fully rational decisions moments after being punched in the face by a tall, strong man with an out-of-control afro.
> ...


Damn, that is a great post.

Mike, my whole beef with the "this all could have been prevented if Ron Artest held himself in check" argument is addressed here by K4E. As fans the thing we detest most is the player who shows a ***** in his mental or emotional armor. Scottie Pippen is, all apologies to Magic and Bird and Shaq and Duncan and others, the second-best player I've seen in my lifetime. Yet 9/10 of non-Bulls fan (and even probably a majority of Bulls fans) will remember him not for his career, but for 1.8. We want our players eating red meat and spitting fire and taking no quarter. 

So, when Artest exercises a great deal restraint by not retaliating when Ben Wallace attempts to punch in his larnyx, even going so far as to retreat to the sideline and (rather theatrically) lie down, we're going to find it inexcusable that he couldn't tolerate being doused in beer by an abusive fan (and God only knows what sort of verbal abuse preceded the dousing) ?

Artest did the wrong thing, but the fan crossed a line that makes Artest's conduct defensible imo, especially when--by popular demand--machismo and all its baggage is the backbone of our sporting culture.

The real problem here was a sparse and poorly coordinated security staff. The fan should have never gotten close enough to throw a beer at Artest, and there should have been enough security to keep Artest from going after the fan. From what I've seen of security sitting courtside at Madison Square Garden and the United Center, I have almost no doubt the same incident would NOT have occurred at those arenas. After seeing the tapes again tonight, I am simply dumbfounded by how little security presence you see during all the various dust-ups.

It's kind of sad that last night's incident is going to be the watershed moment that makes every NBA team re-examine their security policies. Considering terrorism, Monica Seles, Gamboa, and so on, you'd have thought that keeping a virtual wall between fans and athletes would be a no-brainer.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> You're right.
> ...



It is a difficult conundrum for the PaxSkiles dogma.

For instance, what if a loose ball is heading towards the stands? Should Kirk Hinrich dive for it? Should he pull back in a Jamal-like act of lethargy? 

Quite the dilemma!


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> So, when Artest exercises a great deal restraint by not retaliating when Ben Wallace attempts to punch in his larnyx, even going so far as to retreat to the sideline and (rather theatrically) lie down, we're going to find it inexcusable that he couldn't tolerate being doused in beer by an abusive fan (and God only knows what sort of verbal abuse preceded the dousing) ?
> 
> Artest did the wrong thing, but the fan crossed a line that makes Artest's conduct defensible imo, especially when--by popular demand--machismo and all its baggage is the backbone of our sporting culture.


To quote a earlier poster (I think it was this thread): Preposterous.

What would Artest have done if Milicic had done that to him instead of Big Ben?

Rip?

He got into Bens head just as he wished to--and laying on the scorers table was furthur mocking.

To race after a fan when he knows he'll be suspended for it, but not Ben, a rival, for the same punishment after being clobbered by him shows a thin yellow stripe down Artests back.

Artest didn't suddenly snap. He saw a fight he knew he could win. Thats when the machisimo kicked in.

And Jackson and O'Neal showed themselves to be thugs who just enjoy fighting people smaller and weaker than they.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> The real problem here was a sparse and poorly coordinated security staff. The fan should have never gotten close enough to throw a beer at Artest, and there should have been enough security to keep Artest from going after the fan. From what I've seen of security sitting courtside at Madison Square Garden and the United Center, I have almost no doubt the same incident would NOT have occurred at those arenas. After seeing the tapes again tonight, I am simply dumbfounded by how little security presence you see during all the various dust-ups.


I agree wholeheartedly...its a big problem. The more I think about it, the more I'm stunned by the lack of security. Why were fans looking for a fight wandering around on the court? That's crazy.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Got an answer too. The rules specifically say that chasing a ball out of bounds is the exception. I can find the link for you, but thats not necessary, now is it?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

However, Ben Maller and Chris Landry of Fox Sports Radio have learned from Pistons play-by-play man Fred McLeod that the NBA plans to suspend Ron Artest for 30 games.

Additionally, Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson will both get 20-game suspensions. Ben Wallace, on the other hand, will miss just five games.

Artest, O'Neal and Jackson - who all threw punches at spectators in the stands or on the court at the end of the nationally televised Pacers-Pistons game - were to begin serving their suspensions Saturday night, when Indiana hosted Orlando.

Wallace's suspension will start at home Sunday night against Charlotte, the next game for the reigning NBA champion Pistons

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3179442


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> To quote a earlier poster (I think it was this thread): Preposterous.
> ...


I don't think the fact that it was Big Ben made Artest retreat. None of his past transgressions have involved actually fighting other players. When Rip Hamilton cheap-shotted him in game 6 last year, he came back with a rather lukewarm forearm shiver that resulted in a flagrant, when if he wanted to he could have snapped Rip in half over his knee.

And your logic on O'Neal and Jackson is actually more on-target when applied to the fans. Do you think they throw beers and pizzas and chairs at the players if they run across them in, say, an airport? Of course not -- the abusive fans were the party MOST surprised and distressed by the lack of security. Their little safety net was missing.

It takes more courage to wade into a mob of screaming angry drunk people than it does to be in a mob of screaming angry drunk people throwing stuff at 6-10 guys in short pants in a confined space.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> However, Ben Maller and Chris Landry of Fox Sports Radio have learned from Pistons play-by-play man Fred McLeod that the NBA plans to suspend Ron Artest for 30 games.
> 
> ...


I guess that's fair, although Wallace's suspension is a little short.

Conspicuously absent, though, is any mention of what punishment will be meted out to the Detroit franchise itself. They should have to forfeit some home dates, whether they're farmed out to a neutral arena or played in front of no fans, or the equivalent in a cash fine. They provided inadequate security and obviously overserved a large number of fans, both probably criminal offenses under Michigan law.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> I guess that's fair, although Wallace's suspension is a little short.


Short? It's long. Antonio Davis body slammed and punched Brend Haywood...and all that was three games.




> Conspicuously absent, though, is any mention of what punishment will be meted out to the Detroit franchise itself.


Maybe back office like, but theres no precedence for this. C'Mon...



> They should have to forfeit some home dates


Are you serious??



> or played in front of no fans


:no:


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> Are you serious??


Absolutely -- since we're fighting here for truth, justice, the American way, and those poor, dispossessed, underdog NBA fans unfortunate enough to have sit in the lower bowl of the arena, we might as well take on what amounts to nothing less than negligence by the people who hosted last night's event.

Make the Pistons play a fine equivalent to their revenue for 5 home games, or move 5 home games to Ann Arbor or East Lansing or Joe Louis Arena.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Not happening


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> Not happening


Oh, I know it's a pipedream. But at the very least, I'd like to think the league won't leave any stones unturned and will take a good long look at the Pistons front office.

Between the mind-boggling lack of security and the alacrity and intensity with which the Pistons' president was spin-doctoring last night, I would not be surprised if there exist some incriminating internal cost-cutting memos or the like.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh, I know it's a pipedream. But at the very least, I'd like to think the league won't leave any stones unturned and will take a good long look at the Pistons front office.


Maybe. Looks like senior management strife is about to begin...



> Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh was in New York for a wedding Saturday but issued a statement that questioned the security procedures at the Palace.
> 
> "The safety of everyone present was compromised, and that is a great concern for us," Walsh said.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Steve Kerr's sensible, spot-on take:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...HNlYwN0bQ--?slug=sk-brawl&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

He'd know more about fan misbehavior than most. Shortly after his father, the president of the American university in Beirut, was assassinated by terrorists, Kerr was taunted by fans at archrival Arizona State with chants of "Where's your daddy?"


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Ron Artest Financials, 2004-05

$6,157,000 basic contract (couldn't find incentives, etc.)

Divide that by 82, the # of games = $75,085 per game

75,085 x 30 games= $2.25 million dollar fine.

{b]IF[/b] Fox is correct.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

Hey regarding the initial post as I have not read all the posts here...

Do you remember that time when the Detroit Tigers were visiting Comiskey Park and Robert Fick got doused with beer in the bullpen?

Boy, it would have been real awesome to categorize all Chicago fans as a disgrace for what a bunch of morons were doing.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> Hey regarding the initial post as I have not read all the posts here...
> 
> Do you remember that time when the Detroit Tigers were visiting Comiskey Park and Robert Fick got doused with beer in the bullpen?
> ...


I think the fact that the thread title is a generalization is pretty self-evident.

(I also didn't see any of the Pacer players or staff giving the crowd the finger last night as they left with beer / water / soda / chairs raining down upon them.)

Edit: I feel bad about the Fick thing. Do you know of any Detroit area charities to which I can make a donation so there's money enough to hire more than like eight security guards at Pistons games?


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> I think the fact that the thread title is a generalization is pretty self-evident.
> ...


Yeah the Pacers players just ran into the crowd and started swinging.

That was so much better than Fick's response to the rude treatment.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> (I also didn't see any of the Pacer players or staff giving the crowd the finger last night


They were in headlocks from their teammates.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah the Pacers players just ran into the crowd and started swinging.


In response to things being hurled from the audience and heaven only knows what sort of verbal abuse (knowing that part of the world, I'm sure some of it was racially offensive).

And again, it's all a non-issue if there are more than like six security guards manning the floor at the Palace. Christ, I've been to in-house corporate meetings that've had more security.


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> In response to things being hurled from the audience and heaven only knows what sort of verbal abuse (knowing that part of the world, I'm sure some of it was racially offensive).
> ...


To be accurate their response to take it into the stands was the result of one cup of beer being thrown and hitting its mark.

But, now that you felt the need to attack the city of Detroit once again I'm done.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jvanbusk</b>!
> 
> 
> To be accurate their response to take it into the stands was the result of one cup of beer being thrown and hitting its mark.
> ...


Oh, since it was just one cup, it's all okay, right?

I wasn't attacking anyone. I'm just saying this would have been avoided if the Palace had been staffed with a quantity of security guards appropriate for an NBA game rather than a small coffeehouse poetry reading.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

What kills me about security was in the middle of the fight, after Artest left the stands, those 2 little fat guys were able to walk up on the court, UNIMPEDED, and go at it with Artest. Artest was right in hitting those 2. They clearly wanted to fight and a man has to defend himself, because clearly the security wasnt. And what about the Piston players? Where were they? THey had a moral obligation to step in and make peace. Instead they ran. Blame should be put on them. Artest is likely to miss 25 games or more. And that upsets me. No matter what dumbass Skiles says, the league could use more guys with his passion. All he did was defend himself. He hasnt been right in the past, but in this case he was well justified. And Id give him a pass


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## BenDengGo (Feb 1, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> What kills me about security was in the middle of the fight, after Artest left the stands, those 2 little fat guys were able to walk up on the court, UNIMPEDED, and go at it with Artest. Artest was right in hitting those 2. They clearly wanted to fight and a man has to defend himself, because clearly the security wasnt. And what about the Piston players? Where were they? THey had a moral obligation to step in and make peace. Instead they ran. Blame should be put on them. Artest is likely to miss 25 games or more. And that upsets me. No matter what dumbass Skiles says, the league could use more guys with his passion. All he did was defend himself. He hasnt been right in the past, but in this case he was well justified. And Id give him a pass


what he said.

those players are needed in sports...who show emotions and passion.

i think stern wants a league of duncans...clean players, but just boring


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## jvanbusk (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> What kills me about security was in the middle of the fight, after Artest left the stands, those 2 little fat guys were able to walk up on the court, UNIMPEDED, and go at it with Artest. Artest was right in hitting those 2. They clearly wanted to fight and a man has to defend himself, because clearly the security wasnt. And what about the Piston players? Where were they? THey had a moral obligation to step in and make peace. Instead they ran. Blame should be put on them. Artest is likely to miss 25 games or more. And that upsets me. No matter what dumbass Skiles says, the league could use more guys with his passion. All he did was defend himself. He hasnt been right in the past, but in this case he was well justified. And Id give him a pass


Security loosened up on the court, when the security guards had to go into the stands to break up the fights that were breaking out. This made it easier to get on the court.

Artest was right for fighting the first guy, but Jermaine O'Neal's actions were deplorable.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> Edit: I feel bad about the Fick thing. Do you know of any Detroit area charities to which I can make a donation so there's money enough to hire more than like eight security guards at Pistons games?


ScottMay, you have brought up the Palace security being understaffed a few times now, and I think you need some evidence to support this claim. I've done alot of reading on this topic and I haven't seen it suggested anywhere that the Palace had less security in place than other franchises. In fact, if there was any evidence supoorting this I'd have to imagine this would be the big story; it would be all over the press that Detroit slacks relative to the league in protecting it's arena amd that would be three quarters of the pie on the metaphorical pie chart that you described. 

The only thing I've read/heard regarding the relative security of the Palace was that the Palace just held one of the most incident free Finals. So if this is true (I think it was the Auburn deputy who said this), I think there's a precedent that suggests that Detroit is possibly decently secured relative to the league.

Speaking of precedent, there haven't been cases of violence like this -- similar instances, but only in type and not magnitude*. So I don't think it's fair to blame Detroit's franchise specifically for something like this. Blame would be more fitting on the league's standards for security in general, and that's where I think alot of action needs to be taken. The securit teams that are assigned to pro-basketball events nationwide need to be trained for things like this now.

So all this said, this is why I dont think that Detroit in general will be punished very severely. They won't play their home-games in Mexico like some posters on the mainboard have suggested. I honestly don't think David Stern has too much in his power that he could do, at least without the backing of the other owners. 

I see more punishment being dealt to fans, such as pursuing criminal charges against the unruly fans, removal of season tickets/bans, harsher rules regarding the thorwing of drinks/abuse towards players, etc. If it were me, I would prohibit the sale of alcohol after halftime, but since the markup on drinks has got to be such a huge cashcow I can't see this happening. 

I agree that a message needs to be sent to fans saying that this is not OK, especially since the soon-to-be well-publicized suspensions might send a message that the fans were not in the wrong, but I don't think it would be fair to lay some blanket punishment on Detroit in general nor do I see it as really being possible. Perhaps ticket prices rising to pay for the increased security, but I don't see this happening retroactively for people who have already purchased tickets for futre games.

*As to the precedent, that's something I think about whenever people say "anyone would do what Ron Artest did" or "people are just blaming him because of his reputation" -- is it just a coincidence that nothing this big has happened in the NBA, and that Ron Artest is right in the middle of it? With the exception of perhaps Vernon Maxwell of course..


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>toros_locos</b>!
> i think stern wants a league of duncans...clean players


Bingo. It's a good thing.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MongolianDeathCloud</b>!
> 
> 
> I see more punishment being dealt to fans, such as pursuing criminal charges against the unruly fans, removal of season tickets/bans, harsher rules regarding the thorwing of drinks/abuse towards players, etc. If it were me, I would prohibit the sale of alcohol after halftime, but since the markup on drinks has got to be such a huge cashcow I can't see this happening.
> ...


Stern today:



> The NBA also has to "redefine the bounds of acceptable conduct for fans attending our games and resolve to permanently exclude those who overstep those bounds," Stern said.


Don't think that will be retroactive though...


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MongolianDeathCloud</b>!
> 
> 
> ScottMay, you have brought up the Palace security being understaffed a few times now, and I think you need some evidence to support this claim. I've done alot of reading on this topic and I haven't seen it suggested anywhere that the Palace had less security in place than other franchises. In fact, if there was any evidence supoorting this I'd have to imagine this would be the big story; it would be all over the press that Detroit slacks relative to the league in protecting it's arena amd that would be three quarters of the pie on the metaphorical pie chart that you described.
> ...


MDC,

I'm not going by anything I've read, although there are mentions of lax security in Ray Ratto's ESPN and Bill Rhoden's NY Times columns on the riot. I'm going by what I saw in the footage compared to what I've seen while sitting courtside or near-courtside in other NBA arenas, most notably MSG and the United Center.

Granted, there are presumably added concerns about terror in those two arenas, but I simply cannot imagine the same thing that happened in Detroit happening in those two facilities. Courtside and the bench areas are utterly saturated with uniformed and non-uniformed security.

Check out the footage again -- even in the wide-angle shot of the initial skirmish behind the scorers table, I can only make out 3-4 blue-jacketed security officers. That's simply unacceptable.

And finally, the eagerness with which the Pistons' president was out interviewing and spinning leads me to believe something was amiss. The so-called "incident-free" Finals doesn't really impress me -- I went to one Finals game at Chicago Stadium and one at the United Center and those were the most harmonious games I've ever attended. 

Whether or not this becomes a big story remains to be seen. My layman's opinion is that Detroit did not have this event staffed the way it should have been. We'll just have to wait for the rest of the NBA's investigation.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

Perhaps you are right, maybe as they look into the security further and uncover some serious lack of attention, so the lack of press about it could be because it's still a work in progress.

From my experience, I felt that the Oakland Colliseum and Arco Arena security were pretty skimp compared to the magnitude of these events on the occasions that I've been to them. I know at Goldenstate games it's not uncommon for people to move from the upper bowl to the lower bowl after half-time through various ways. In fact, something similar to this occurred in Goldenstate when Sheed jumped up in a stand and the players were showered with crap (after which Chris Mills confronted the Blazers team bus outside the Colliseum).

Whatever the case, I think it's pretty clear that a standard to which all venues have to conform that greater emphasizes security measures to prevent these sort of things happening is in order. I'm of the opinion that this instance was very close to being a much larger disaster, as I would not have been surprised to hear that someone was trampled or really hurt (the chair, the woman on the gorund).


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

it should be noted that the knicks complained about the detriot's lack of security as early as last season.

so I am thinking the pistons do not have a security detail that is up to par.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

<i> Players union director Billy Hunter, calling the penalties excessive, said an appeal would be filed <b>with Stern</b> on Monday.
--
"It was unanimous, one to nothing," Stern said. "I did not strike from my mind the fact that Ron Artest had been suspended on previous conditions for loss of self-control."
--
<b>All appeals of disciplinary penalties for on-court disturbances are heard by Stern</b>, making it highly unlikely any of the suspensions will be reduced.</i>

:lol:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041122/ap_on_sp_bk_ne/bkn_pacers_pistons_brawl


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> <i> Players union director Billy Hunter, calling the penalties excessive, said an appeal would be filed <b>with Stern</b> on Monday.
> --
> "It was unanimous, one to nothing," Stern said. "I did not strike from my mind the fact that Ron Artest had been suspended on previous conditions for loss of self-control."
> ...


thats what they said when stern voided sprewell's contract.

it didn't work then , i doubt it works now.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> thats what they said when stern voided sprewell's contract.
> ...


:laugh: 
 
:laugh: 

It went to an outside arbitrator NOT because of the length of suspension, but because Stern terminated Sprewell's contract.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> O'Neal, according to sources familiar with the ongoing criminal proceedings in suburban Detroit, is being investigated for allegedly having hit a police officer during the brawl. So just because the NBA gave O'Neal 25 games doesn't mean that's all he will get for his role in the melee.


Wilbon...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3104-2004Nov21.html


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Wilbon...
> ...


This quote is hilarious:

"And there was the obligatory talk about beefing up security, as if 50 more armed guards could have stopped somebody from throwing beer on a player."

Um, yeah, Mike, they absolutely could have. And then they could have sealed a secure perimeter on the court and stopped a bunch of other wannabe heroes from stepping up to take a swing at a real, live NBA player. And then they could have secured one of the tunnels off the court and prevented the Pacers traveling team from getting pelted with God-knows-what.

Wilbon doesn't like Artest because he stalled the saintly MJ's comeback by breaking his ribs in practice. Artest is a bad jib / that element guy, clearly.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> Another light moment -- the Suge Knight lookalike inexplicably cold-cocking Fred Jones.


What's really bothersome is that the dude had a credential on. How about Jamaal Tinsley running around with a dust-pan? Some of these guys looked like they thought they were in a WWF hardcore match.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

I haven't seen anyone else bring it up, but one of the few funny moments of this whole thing was after Artest clocked the one Pistons fan on the court, all of a sudden you see some chubby guy with a huge clown wig come running over to help. Not only is that funny in and of itself, but he ends up getting knocked down, wig comes flying off, but the guy doesn't lose a beat and puts it right back on. It's like he doesn't have the same crime-fighting powers without the wig! :laugh: That made me laugh pretty hard, even in the midst of the huge, disgusting mess.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dkg1</b>!
> 
> 
> What's really bothersome is that the dude had a credential on. How about Jamaal Tinsley running around with a dust-pan? Some of these guys looked like they thought they were in a WWF hardcore match.


Ben Wallace's brother. That's who it was.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PC Load Letter</b>!
> I haven't seen anyone else bring it up, but one of the few funny moments of this whole thing was after Artest clocked the one Pistons fan on the court, all of a sudden you see some chubby guy with a huge clown wig come running over to help. Not only is that funny in and of itself, but he ends up getting knocked down, wig comes flying off, but the guy doesn't lose a beat and puts it right back on. It's like he doesn't have the same crime-fighting powers without the wig! :laugh: That made me laugh pretty hard, even in the midst of the huge, disgusting mess.


:laugh: 

Damn good description.


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Ben Wallace's brother. That's who it was.


Are you serious? He should face criminal charges and should be banned from NBA games as far as I'm concerned. I hope some of these fans get identified and are banned for life or get charges pressed against them. Too bad the league couldn't do something drastic and not allow fans to sit in the first 20 rows at Piston games. Not allow fans to sit anywhere near entrances/exits.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Here we are more than four months after the riot, and nothing substantive has been done to improve Palace security. 



> While the two individual miscreants got lifetime bans from the Palace, nobody has held the Pistons or the Palace responsible for controlling some of the rudest fans in the league. There was no fine for poor security. There was nothing. Just a promise from Stern that the league would review and increase its security presence.


And then there's this about the latest incident, which I hadn't seen before. Simply unbelievable.



> We don't know where the calls were coming from, and we don't know what the motivation might have been.
> 
> All we know is this: As the Pacers were waiting on their bus and voting over whether to play, the NBA and security chief Stu Jackson were threatening the club with massive fines if they didn't play the game.


Wow. Bomb threats are phoned into an arena where the Pacers already have serious and very legitimate doubts about the security's ability to protect the players from the fans, and the NBA threatens "massive fines" if the Pacers don't take the court? 

Stern's recent track record -- this and the age limit -- make Bud Selig look like a players' association president. Yikes.

Indy Star


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

the only way player security will improve is if the union makes it an issue during cba negotiations.  granted, none of this happens if a player doesn't run in to the stands, but it's four months later and ownership has shed all blame from the situation. for the good of the game, i hope the union forces ownership to step up to the plate and take action.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

It almost seems like the league has an axe to grind with the Pacers. Not without good reason, I can see why Stern and Granik are peeed off at them, Artest charging into the stands and the melee that followed was the worst black eye the league has had in many years. 

I know damn well he wasn't very happy about JO's suspension being reduced by 10 games, the Pacers shouldn't have taken it to a Federal Court when it was a league manner (in Stern's eyes).

IMO, the Pacers should have just taken the suspension and been done with it. Call it karma or whatever you believe in, but JO came back early, then got hurt and wound up missing far more than the 10 games he got back from the league.

I'm not saying Stern is 100% correct, but Artest started this whole ugly mess by going after an innocent civilian, and I am stating what I think Stern's thinking is IMO.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

bullsville said:


> It almost seems like the league has an axe to grind with the Pacers. Not without good reason, I can see why Stern and Granik are peeed off at them, Artest charging into the stands and the melee that followed was the worst black eye the league has had in many years.
> 
> I know damn well he wasn't very happy about JO's suspension being reduced by 10 games, the Pacers shouldn't have taken it to a Federal Court when it was a league manner (in Stern's eyes).
> 
> ...



What about Ben Wallace, if Ben Wallace doesn't start a fight at the end of a done game none of this happens. If the fan doesn't throw the cup, none of this happens. Everything that the Pacers did was provoked.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> Here we are more than four months after the riot, and nothing substantive has been done to improve Palace security.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



YAWN.

No really.

YAWN!

The Pistons fans are starting to get a bad rep from this. The Pacers initiated the entire thing, the Detroit miscreants who needed to be punished have/are been/being punished, and nothing like it will happen again in The Palace.

The locker-room had been searched and guarded all day long, so Stu had ample reason to make them play or face a fine.

YAWN!


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

sloth said:


> What about Ben Wallace, if Ben Wallace doesn't start a fight at the end of a done game none of this happens. If the fan doesn't throw the cup, none of this happens. Everything that the Pacers did was provoked.


And the people involved punished.

End of story.


The Pacers (and this writer) are trying to move the responsibility for the melee off of Artests shoulders and onto the Pistons.

Won't take.

This article is laughable.



> So here is commissioner David Stern's best and last chance to make the Pistons organization and the Palace hierarchy pay for the fact that the Pacers cannot play in that building fully assured of their safety:


Except, they can. Detroit fans were as mortified for their reputation as Stern was. They won't respond that way again, and the Pistons have upped the security at the Palace for those 1 or 2 who might not decide to play by the rules. Those 1 or 2, by the way, exist here in Chicago, and in every arena of every public sporting event.



> Play Detroit's home games -- at least the ones against the Pacers -- in an empty building.
> 
> Absurd?
> 
> ...


This is a business, not a social get together. And he just backed up my point...it's a 'small percentage' of loony-toon fans.



> Listen, if they win another title, the Pistons should vote Beer Cup Guy and Chair Toss Guy a half-share apiece.


At the beginning of the season, all the talk was about how the Pacers had no respect for the Pistons championship because they felt they were the better team.

This is just a frustrated response to that disrespect. You can expect more when/if the Heat eliminate the Pistons.

YAWN!


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

sloth said:


> Everything that the Pacers did was provoked.


Yeah. I mean, I know that if I got hit by a beer cup, my instinct would be to arbitrarily attack someone in the general direction of where the cup came from.  Stephen Jackson was really provoked into seemingly taking swings at everyone in that entire seating section.

I'm not absolving the Pistons fans from the reprehensible mob mentality that they took on that night, but to say that everything was provoked is a bit of a stretch. This is one situation that, IMO, is a clear case of joint fault.

That said, I agree with ScottMay that it seems like the league has tried to sweep the matter under the rug now that people's horror over the incident has subsided with time. I sure as hell don't blame the Pacers for being reluctant to play in an arena that is the subject of bomb threats.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

Hey. At least their fans have a pulse! Watching the last few home games on League Pass and I've started wondering if anyone at the UC is even aware of what's going on. Memphis cuts an 18 point deficit to two and you could hear a pin drop (or Kerr sucking on his 14th lolly-pop!).

I certainly hope that the fans could show some enthusiasm come playoff time!


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> I sure as hell don't blame the Pacers for being reluctant to play in an arena that is the subject of bomb threats.



*"The Palace switchboard took a call from an unknown subject who made a very specific threat that there was a bomb in the Indiana Pacers locker room," said Auburn Hills chief of police Doreen Olko. "The locker room had been searched this morning with bomb dogs. It was searched again late this afternoon, and then after this threat came in, it was searched again tonight. Security was posted outside the door at all times after the initial search this morning, and continued all day long.

"Nothing was found."
--
Friday's events were a stark contrast to at least one player's experience just 24 hours earlier. Before the game, O'Neal spoke at length about walking around downtown Birmingham and the interaction he had with numerous people.

"Everybody just said, (the brawl) was a bad thing, and they wished me the best of luck with my shoulder and the rest of the season, and I said the same thing for them and their team," O'Neal said. "Everybody kind of built it up as we have bad blood with the Pistons, and it's nothing like that. We don't even have bad blood with these fans. If I thought it was that bad, I wouldn't have come on the trip."*

http://www.freep.com/sports/pistons/pistons-bar126e_20050326.htm


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

And it's looking more and more like these two teams will be facing each other in the first round of the play-offs. Talk about your high drama....


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

That's all well and good, GB, but are you trying to say that you'd confidently walk into a building that had received threats even after it had been checked over a couple of times? I know I'd still be pretty hesitant, especially if I was going in there to play a freaking basketball game.


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## KJay (Sep 22, 2002)

one bomb threat is enough, but freaking 4? The nba should bann all games from being played in Detroit for a year, for all of this. now that will never happen, but it would shut those yahooo's up.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

GB said:


> "The Palace switchboard took a call from an unknown subject who made a very specific threat that there was a bomb in the Indiana Pacers locker room," said Auburn Hills chief of police Doreen Olko. "The locker room had been searched this morning with bomb dogs. It was searched again late this afternoon, and then after this threat came in, it was searched again tonight. Security was posted outside the door at all times after the initial search this morning, and continued all day long.
> 
> "Nothing was found."


At least three of the four bomb threats came AFTER the initial search, hence the 90+ minute delay.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2022692
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2022140

Even if searches continued throughout the day, I don't think it's unreasonable for the Pacers to ask everyone to err on the side of caution. Again, since Stern hasn't made any significant changes in arena security--clearances, IDs, background checks, etc.--we have no idea what kind of people would have had access to the Pacers locker room.



> Detroit fans were as mortified for their reputation as Stern was.


Have you determined this by talking to Detroit fans? I'm just curious -- I mean, yes, there was a certain amount of hand-wringing in the Detroit media, and yes, a handful of fans approached Jermaine O'Neal in a mall and chatted him up, but I haven't seen anything about anyone being "mortified." Maybe that's because no one IS mortified -- two guys got unenforceable lifetime "bans" from the Palace, and nothing else has changed.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

GB said:


> The Pistons fans are starting to get a bad rep from this. The Pacers initiated the entire thing, the Detroit miscreants who needed to be punished have/are been/being punished, and nothing like it will happen again in The Palace.


I've missed some news, then. I've seen that a small number of Pistons fans, including the chair thrower and the beer douser, have been punished (or had charges brought against them).

I haven't seen anything regarding the THOUSANDS -- literally! -- of people who were hurling debris at the court/Indiana players, or the HUNDREDS -- literally! --of people who took it upon themselves to walk / run / stampede onto the court, looking for trouble.

It's obviously too late / not possible to charge those folks. But it isn't too late for Stern to REQUIRE, not recommend, an appropriate level of security at NBA arenas.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> since Stern hasn't made any significant changes in arena security--clearances, IDs, background checks, etc.


Do we know that these weren't/aren't already in place?




> Have you determined this by talking to Detroit fans?


Yes. And by reading their newspapers and message forums. By reading national magazines that have covered the topic.

I'm very confident in my opinion.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> I've missed some news, then. I've seen that a small number of Pistons fans, including the chair thrower and the beer douser, have been punished (or had charges brought against them).
> 
> I haven't seen anything regarding the THOUSANDS -- literally! -- of people who were hurling debris at the court/Indiana players, or the HUNDREDS -- literally! --of people who took it upon themselves to walk / run / stampede onto the court, looking for trouble.
> 
> It's obviously too late / not possible to charge those folks. But it isn't too late for Stern to REQUIRE, not recommend, an appropriate level of security at NBA arenas.



 

Such as?


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

GB said:


> Such as?


GB, I don't mind you arguing this from the standpoint that Stern and the owners and the people who manage arenas know what they're doing, but if you're going to give me a "roll eyes" over the indisputable fact that there was a mob mentality at the Palace that night, and that literally thousands of people were involved in it (even some of whom were later mortified!), then I just have to admit right now that your worldview is a little scary to me.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> GB, I don't mind you arguing this from the standpoint that Stern and the owners and the people who manage arenas know what they're doing, but if you're going to give me a "roll eyes" over the indisputable fact that there was a mob mentality at the Palace that night, and that literally thousands of people were involved in it (even some of whom were later mortified!), then I just have to admit right now that your worldview is a little scary to me.


The rolleye is for the <B>non-specific</b>:

<I>But it isn't too late for Stern to REQUIRE, not recommend, an appropriate level of security at NBA arenas.</i>

Thats like saying:

<I>Skiles needs to improve his coaching for this team to reach the next level</i>


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

Who's to say the bomb threats weren't called in by Pacer fans? Seriously.

Any fan of any team in another team's city could do this, I don't see how someone that isn't in the arena calling in a bomb threat says anything about the Palace security team or the Pistons organization?

I feel no pity for the Pacers, Crazy Ron started *all* of this, stuff gets thrown onto arena floors all the time, any place I have ever been the one beer cup thrown at Artest would have been swiftly solved- the person who threw the beer would have been pointed out and they would have been thrown out of the arena and possibly prosecuted.

This was a one fan incedent until Crazy Ron broke the Golden Rule, you do not go into the stands. Period. I don't care if they fire n-bombs at you from an AK-47 or throw a beer cup at you, you do not go into the stands after them. Period.

Crazy Ron turned what was an isolated incident into a full-blown riot. Certainly nobody is absolved from blame for what happened afterward, but Crazy Ron started the entire thing. Then other Pacers followed him into the stands to assault an innocent bystander *who was still holding his beer cup in his hands*.

I'm sorry, the Pistons did all they could before this last game to ensure security, you cannot control a bomb threat from outside the arena. If anything, the security went overboard if the threats were on the Pacers locker room, which had been locked and guarded all day. If there was no way there could be a bomb in there, they might have been better served to keep it quiet?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

bullsville said:


> Crazy Ron turned what was an isolated incident into a full-blown riot. Certainly nobody is absolved from blame for what happened afterward, but Crazy Ron started the entire thing. Then other Pacers followed him into the stands to assault an innocent bystander *who was still holding his beer cup in his hands*.
> 
> I'm sorry, the Pistons did all they could before this last game to ensure security, you cannot control a bomb threat from outside the arena.


Bears repeating.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

GB said:


> Do we know that these weren't/aren't already in place?


We don't. We can't, really, because obviously not all of this security stuff can be transparent. I doubt that the Pistons do a background check on the janitors who clean the opponents locker room, or a contractor who'd been given access to repair a refrigerator the day before (just a hypothetical), and so on. But you're right -- I do not know any of that for sure.

What we do know is this. There was a near-riot in an NBA arena about four months ago that put players and fans in danger of physical harm. Many, if not all, observers have come to the conclusion that a lack (in pure numbers) of security staff and certain security practices made the situation worse. Despite going to great lengths to punish the players involved, the NBA has done nothing more than issue a slightly revised list of security guidelines and promised to address the subject in greater detail at a later date. 

Forget about why this happened or who you blame for causing it. The NBA is dropping the ball here on making sure every NBA arena is adequately secured. If they don't do it in the immediate aftermath of the brawl, they aren't going to do it until there's another incident. And I don't think any of us wants to see that.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

GB said:


> The rolleye is for the <B>non-specific</b>:
> 
> <I>But it isn't too late for Stern to REQUIRE, not recommend, an appropriate level of security at NBA arenas.</i>
> 
> ...


It's not like saying that at all. Stern isn't chasing an ideal; he's ignoring setting a bare minimum standard for NBA security that currently doesn't exist.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

Nobody can say for sure what security measures are or are not in place for NBA arenas.

I can say for certain that there have been no riots of any kind in an NBA arena since Crazy Ron was suspended.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> What we do know is this. There was a near-riot in an NBA arena about four months ago that put players and fans in danger of physical harm.


Scott, this is a danger at any large gathering of people.

It could have happened the night Starks played his first game in a Bulls uniform.

You can only control and contain mob action when it involves more than a certain number of people.

All of the arenas need to update and review their procedures for such an event. But other than metal detecting/wanding at the door, I don't know what you're dinging Stern for. All the pro sports face this.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

GB said:


> All of the arenas need to update and review their procedures for such an event.


Whew. Now we're finally getting somewhere. 



> But other than metal detecting/wanding at the door, I don't know what you're dinging Stern for. All the pro sports face this.


Every NBA arena I've been in since 9/11 has either put me through a metal detector or patted me down. I wouldn't feel safe in one that didn't.

What I'm dinging Stern for is this: he meted out swift and stern (ha ha) punishment to the players involved. He has dragged his heels and eqivocated on the security issue. I agree that a message needed to be sent to the players, but I also think that an equally powerful message needed to be sent to the fans and the people running the arenas.

Bullsville talked about a "Golden Rule" -- thou shalt not enter the stands. Fair enough. If there isn't a similar "Golden Rule" for audience members -- no racially oriented profanity, no assaulting the players, etc. -- there ought to be, no? My stance, though, is that the best thing to do is to not assume that people will know and adhere to "Golden Rules" -- there are way too many bad apples in society in general and NBA audiences/teams in particular. So the most prudent thing to do becomes isolating fans from the players to the maximum extent possible.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> Every NBA arena I've been in since 9/11 has either put me through a metal detector or patted me down. I wouldn't feel safe in one that didn't.
> 
> What I'm dinging Stern for is this: he meted out swift and stern (ha ha) punishment to the players involved. He has dragged his heels and eqivocated on the security issue. I agree that a message needed to be sent to the players, but I also think that an equally powerful message needed to be sent to the fans and the people running the arenas.
> 
> Bullsville talked about a "Golden Rule" -- thou shalt not enter the stands. Fair enough. If there isn't a similar "Golden Rule" for audience members -- no racially oriented profanity, no assaulting the players, etc. -- there ought to be, no? My stance, though, is that the best thing to do is to not assume that people will know and adhere to "Golden Rules" -- there are way too many bad apples in society in general and NBA audiences/teams in particular. So the most prudent thing to do becomes isolating fans from the players to the maximum extent possible.


Are you saying the Pistons don't/didn't have metal detectors?

Honest question...I don't know the answer.

The fans are there, as in every league, by the contract printed on the tickets. It's not a security policy.

And honestly, you're still being vague. What did the Pistons specifically fail to do that every other arena was doing?

SPECIFIC.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

I agree, there are bad apples in the audience. You mentioned no racially oriented profanity, no assaulting the players, and I think those are definitely enforced.

I know at most arenas I've been in, calling a player a N can get you ejected from the arena, the people around aren't going to tolerate it. Most of the fan's own team is made up of black guys, I must say that although I'm sure it happens, I don't see it. I covered Arena League football for a season, and that's mostly a white audience, and I never heard one N thrown out the entire season, I just think that for the most part society itself doesn't accept that sort of thing. 

The same thing goes for assaulting the players, and like I said the beer cup thrower would have been pointed out and ejected if Crazy Ron would have stood up and pointed and said "that guy just hit me with a beer".

But Crazy Ron instead attacked a completely innocent civilian, and a riot ensued. It's awfully hard to punish an entire mob once someone started a riot, simply because it's hard to know who did what. Well I do know that people who were sighted on camera- including Ben's brother- were arrested and prosecuted, like they should have been.

Without knowing the exact sercurity situation at each and every arena, none of us can say it's lax. The blame for the riot in Detroit is 100% on Artest, if he had handled himself like a professional, the ushers and patrons would have pointed out the cup thrower, and if not they would have gone to the cameras. Crazy Ron took an isolated incident that was easily snuffed out and started an all-out riot by breaking the Golden Rule.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

GB said:


> Are you saying the Pistons don't/didn't have metal detectors?
> 
> Honest question...I don't know the answer.
> 
> ...


(I don't know about the Palace and entry security.)

You can go back to earlier posts of mine in this thread, but here are the highlights as I remember them:

-- I've had the good fortune to have near-courtside seats at several NBA arenas, and compared to what I saw of the footage of the brawl, the number of security personnel at the Palace seemed very, very low. Even in the wide-angle shot that ESPN went to as Artest and Jackson went well up into the stands, you can count the number of uniformed security on one hand.

-- The night of the brawl, Jim Gray reported that the security, to him, did not act as quickly as it could have. He mentioned something about them waiting for a "signal" from someone that never came.

-- Early in the season, the Knicks complained to the league about lax security at the Palace, specifically around their bench area -- the fans were getting too close to the players.

-- The chairman of Palace Entertainment was on ESPN News that night, and while I realize it's part of his job to spin that situation, something about what he was saying just didn't seem right. He kept harping on a "incident-free Finals," which is meaningless given that by his own admission the Pistons didn't have in place the much-ballyhooed "playoff-level security" they've talked about since then. Lots of deflecting and triangulating and bs'ing.

That's it. I'm not a security consultant nor can I claim any particular expertise about this stuff. I'm mainly going by what my gut told me when watching the scene unfold -- "Where in the hell is the security? At [insert arena name here] there are 50 guys in blazers on the scene in a second if a guy takes a wrong turn at the end of the aisle."


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

bullsville said:


> Without knowing the exact sercurity situation at each and every arena, none of us can say it's lax. The blame for the riot in Detroit is 100% on Artest, if he had handled himself like a professional, the ushers and patrons would have pointed out the cup thrower, and if not they would have gone to the cameras. Crazy Ron took an isolated incident that was easily snuffed out and started an all-out riot by breaking the Golden Rule.


Not at all true. Prior to November 19, the Knicks filed an official protest with the league about security at the Palace. I believe the upshot was that they'd repeatedly complained about several fans in the vicinity of their bench, and Palace security either couldn't or wouldn't make the fans stop what they were doing.

That sort of stuff gets around the league real quick. If going into a game you know that arena security's not on your side, there's no way that doesn't play into things.

And I'm sorry, we can argue all day and night about who started the riot, but no matter who triggered it, nothing gives THOUSANDS -- and again, that is not an exaggeration -- of fans the right to throw **** at the players on the court or as they leave the floor, or HUNDREDS of fans the right to storm the floor. That's why writers like Kravitz are still beating the "make them play games without fans" angle, and that's why I'm still concerned that nothing meaningful's been done on the security front.

The players, one would think, have learned their lesson. The fans, on the other hand . . . I'm not seeing what lesson they learned. True, there are two of them who need to have a buddy buy their ticket for them if they want to go to a game. Wow.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> Not at all true. Prior to November 19, the Knicks filed an official protest with the league about security at the Palace. I believe the upshot was that they'd repeatedly complained about several fans in the vicinity of their bench, and Palace security either couldn't or wouldn't make the fans stop what they were doing.
> 
> That sort of stuff gets around the league real quick. If going into a game you know that arena security's not on your side, there's no way that doesn't play into things.
> 
> ...


I don't know what the Knicks complained of, I didn't see anything about N-bombs or throwing cups, so I can't really comment on that. I can only speak to that night, it was a nationally televised game and if Crazy Ron had just pointed out the offender, that would have been the end of it. 

I'll not arguing that security was fine that night, I have no idea, although if people say it was lax, it was lax. 

But outside of encircling the court in glass like hockey or chicken wire like some European countries, no amount of security could have stopped Artest from jumping from the elevated scorer's table into the stands. And once Crazy Ron attacked one of 20,000 "enemies" (an innocent one, at that) at a "game you know that arena security's not on your side", no amount of security is going to stop that either. If you had 5,000 security guards, that's still 4 patrons to one guard. I guess they could have opened fire?

Crazy Ron started a riot, plain and simple. Once he crossed that line, no amount of security was going to stop what happened, especially once other players started attacking fans as well. 

If anything, at least this pointed out what certainly could be called bad security before the incident, and that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. But Ron Artest committed a blatant criminal act, the reaction while ugly is not to be completely unexpected IMO. 

As long as we keep the athletes from committing assault with intent to injure in the stands, I'm confident in arena security anywhere I have been.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Bullsville, there's something a little inconsistent here. Are you actually using the fact that Artest "started this" as justification for 15,000+ fans (remember, quite a few had gone home since the Pistons were getting their asses handed to them) to act without conscience? Were they truly in danger from three Indiana players who chose to wade into the stands? Do you honestly believe that Artest could have jumped 100 feet in the air, thus legitimizing the decision-making of those in the upper deck who chose to respond to things by hurling whatever they could get their hands on in the direction of the Pacers bench? I mean, come on.

I'm sorry, getting doused with beer at the scorer's table hardly ever happens. It severely tests your "Golden Rule" theory. Artest was wrong to do what he did, but you're letting way too many people off here. Please.

Here is an article that backs up what I've been suggesting -- there traditionally was not enough security, either in numbers or in attitude, around the visitor's bench at the Palace. Again, Artest is a big, scary, crazy, guy, but he's not superhuman. Six or seven well-placed, well-trained security guards could have slowed him down and prevented him from getting into the stands.



> Houston and Mourning each know a thing or two about Detroit fans, who on Friday only cemented their reputation as the rudest hosts in the NBA. Houston played three years with the Pistons before signing with the Knicks in 1996, while Mourning, inactive for last season's playoffs, earned a crash course in taunting while sitting on the Nets' bench during the four second-round games at The Palace.
> 
> "To me it's a different crowd than when I was there," Houston said. "It's a little more hostile."





> Rating the worst NBA arenas when it comes to the fans' treatment of visiting players:
> 
> Detroit: Friday's riot merely solidified Detroit's long-standing No. 1 ranking. *The Palace's security personnel allow constant, hostile heckling behind the visiting team bench.* The back-dock loading area, where team busses are parked, fills after games with fans and has been the site of trouble between Pistons players and opponents.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/255526p-218799c.html


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

I'm not trying to let anybody off, just stating the simple fact that it's hard to punish people in a mob scene because it's hard to see who did what. Anyone caught on camera was arrested, I don't know what else they can do?

And I'm not saying Artest endangered people in the upper deck, but I honestly can't say how I would react to a known "imbalanced" person running into the stands attacking innocent people. None of us have ever been in attendance at something like that, so we just can't say what our reaction would be.

Again, my main point is that Crazy Ron broke the main barrier you cannot break. A beer flying at someone is a rare situation, and now we will never know what would have happened if Crazy Ron had done the right thing and reported the person. Ron gets 100% of the blame IMO because he should never have started it, flying beer or not. You can't take the law into your own hands in any situation, certainly not that one.

I'm not excusing anyone's actions, just saying that IMO Crazy Ron is 100% to blame, the whole ugly thing doesn't start without him. I don't blame Big Ben at all, that was a basketball play and he was T-d up and ejected and would have been punished by the league for that act. But that act was on the court, and Ron left the court to attack an innocent bystander, you just can't do that for a lousy plastic cup being thrown at you.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> (I don't know about the Palace and entry security.)
> -- I've had the good fortune to have near-courtside seats at several NBA arenas, and compared to what I saw of the footage of the brawl, the number of security personnel at the Palace seemed very, very low. Even in the wide-angle shot that ESPN went to as Artest and Jackson went well up into the stands, you can count the number of uniformed security on one hand.
> 
> -- The night of the brawl, Jim Gray reported that the security, to him, did not act as quickly as it could have. He mentioned something about them waiting for a "signal" from someone that never came.
> ...


If thats it, I can tell you that you with full confidence that these things were addressed as soon as the next game played at The Palace.

If there are no standards handed down by the league as to what the security should be---the league <B>cannot punish the Pistons for not having acceptable security</b>. If the Pistons were not meeting a defined standard given by the league, the Pacers and all the Indiana papers would have told us about it by now.

And yet...there's silence. Thats because theres nothing that Stern can ding the Pistons for. If anything, it would be Stern that bears responsibility, not the Pistons. But lets leave it where it belongs: on Artest and the Pacers organization.

Oh, and you don't have playoff level security at a regular season game unless theres a special reason. Thats why it called playoff level.

You sound like a Pacers fan. Or just anti-Pistons. Thats not a perjorative or insult...just an observation.

Why so amped about this?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> nothing gives THOUSANDS -- and again, that is not an exaggeration -- of fans the right to throw **** at the players on the court or as they leave the floor, or HUNDREDS of fans the right to storm the floor.


True. What do you do about it?

I mean, when it happens in a city, they usually have to call out specially trained police officers.


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## grace (Mar 22, 2005)

I'm very curious to know how security was at UC before 11/19? How has it changed since? When do stop selling beer? Do you have covers over the tunnels leading to the locker rooms?

As for Conseco Fieldhouse I'm pretty sure we've always stopped selling beer at the end of the 3rd quarter. On holidays we don't sell beer at all. After 11/19 we now have tarps over both tunnels. I can't begin to guess at how many more security personel there is now.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

GB said:


> If thats it, I can tell you that you with full confidence that these things were addressed as soon as the next game played at The Palace.
> 
> If there are no standards handed down by the league as to what the security should be---the league <B>cannot punish the Pistons for not having acceptable security</b>. If the Pistons were not meeting a defined standard given by the league, the Pacers and all the Indiana papers would have told us about it by now.
> 
> ...


You sound like a Palace Entertainment Inc. shareholder. Or maybe you're just always anti-player. That's not perjorative or an insult . . . just an observation.

The reason Stern can and should ding the Pistons, despite the lack of NBA-wide security standards (btw, nice circular logic there! -- A. the NBA doesn't need security regulations. B. we can't punish anyone for not meeting security regulations that don't exist!), is that this event was preceded by numerous instances of opposing teams complaining about a lack of security at the Palace.

Once again: I've sat in seats at Madison Square Garden whose location is very analogous to the ones where Stupid Beer Thrower sat at the Palace. The security at MSG reacts to game situations -- if there's a dust-up on the court, they react accordingly. I cannot imagine being able to get close enough to the scorer's table there so as to throw a beer at a player. I might be able to throw a beer over a wide area and get a lot of people wet, but I wouldn't be able to walk up, throw a beer in a player's face, and then not be buried under a sea of blazered security guys within a second or two, LET ALONE go undetected until a later review of videotape. I mean, think about that for a second -- Stupid Beer Thrower is five or six rows behind the Pacer bench, and they need to borrow ESPN footage to figure out he threw it? 

Once again: "Crazy" Ron Artest would not have gone into the stands if he hadn't had a beer thrown all over him. If the Palace had been adequately staffed, Stupid Beer Thrower can't get to Artest. Even if a beer HAD been thrown on him, if there had been security behind the Indiana bench -- ANY security -- he likely would have been prevented from going into the stands. I don't buy the whole Ron Artest is an unstoppable force argument. A few off-duty cops could have certainly slowed him down until reinforcements arrived.

Once again: Stern cracked down punitively and immediately on one of the two responsible parties, and the one that happens to be under his thumb -- the players. He has yet to do anything meaningful or substantial to hold the other responsible party, the Detroit Pistons, to account. I'm not that amped up, I just find it a little disappointing that Stern's taken the easy way out and not taken some quick, relatively simple and inexpensive steps to ensure that NBA basketball remains the preeminent live sporting event experience in the country.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

GB said:


> True. What do you do about it?
> 
> I mean, when it happens in a city, they usually have to call out specially trained police officers.


You can ban alcohol sales in the 2nd half. Hell, the alcohol policy at rock concerts is a hell of a lot more stringent than it is at most sporting events.

You can have sufficient security around the perimeter of the playing area to ensure no negative interactions between players and fans occur that might set off an arena-wide riot.

Again, I'm not Bernie Kerik or anything but most of this stuff is a lot more horse sense than rocket science.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

I agree that Pistons fans are a disgrace. I moved to Michigan 2 years ago for work and school. I actually work in Auburn Hills and the people around here think being from Michigan means you are God's chosen people or something. They are complete aholes on the roads and they all compete on how huge their houses are. I am from New England and no offense to anyone from the Midwest, but Michigan is far from the nicest place to live. I was even in an intersection one time beeping my horn (apparantly excessively) and this guy jumps out of his truck (I wasn't even beeping at him) and he chased me in the intersection. It's complete insanity. These are the people that go to the Piston's game looking to start a fight. I do blame Artest about 40% for that fight. The fans around here are complete animals. Especially since they won the title. Certainly not the most respectful people. Fortunately for me I am moving in about a week to Seattle. So good bye Detroit.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> You sound like a Palace Entertainment Inc. shareholder. Or maybe you're just always anti-player. That's not perjorative or an insult . . . just an observation.


Touche.

The rest of your argument is rather subjective, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

The league seems to have moved on, and nothing similer has happened before nor seems likely to happen again; I think Stern has handled it well.

Life isn't fair.

Can't suspend the fans, won't touch the cash cow by playing in front of a empty stadium...(thats so laughable a prospect)...all that needs and can be done has been done has probably been done.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> Once again: "Crazy" Ron Artest would not have gone into the stands if he hadn't had a beer thrown all over him. If the Palace had been adequately staffed, Stupid Beer Thrower can't get to Artest. Even if a beer HAD been thrown on him, if there had been security behind the Indiana bench -- ANY security -- he likely would have been prevented from going into the stands. I don't buy the whole Ron Artest is an unstoppable force argument. A few off-duty cops could have certainly slowed him down until reinforcements arrived.


I just don't agree with that. Like I said in an earlier post, outside of glass around the floor as in hockey or chicken wire like the old days, there is no way any NBA arena can stop a person with great tickets from throwing a beer at a player who is lying on the scorer's table. I don't have a problem with Crazy Ron laying there in connection with the fight starting, he shouldn't have been there but that is absolutely no excuse to throw a beer, no way no how.

As long as there are seats right behind the benches, people will be within throwing distance of the players, I don't think any security can stop that.

And I'm sorry, but it definitely IS NOT security's job to stop a player from going into the stands. That's why it is the golden rule, players all know better, and there is no way to stop this outside of a glass or eliminating floor level seats. Players always have access to fans, you can't stop that- that's why the suspensions were so severe, you just don't do it. Just like you don't need a security guard standing behind every urinal to make sure nobody pees on another person, you just don't go into the stands.

And lots of guys have had beers thrown on them, what Artest did is inexcusable, plain and simple. I have no problem with the beer-thrower getting a year in jail, or even more, whatever punishment you propose outside of death (it's not Kirk LOL). But Artest cannot go into the stands, there is absolutely no excuse at all. Ever. The rare times it happens, the players are publicly condemned like these guys were.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

lougehrig said:


> I am moving in about a week to Seattle.



:greatjob: 

Congrats, I hear it's a great city.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Bullsville, like me and GB, you and I will just have to agree to disagree. You're implicitly willing to give the fans a lot more latitude than I am, and you're just not grasping my basic point of security -- I'm not proposing security at urinals or a one-to-one ratio of security to fans or anything preposterous like that. And you couldn't be more wrong about the role of security at any sporting event. They are specifically trained not only in keeping fans away from the talent, but also in how to keep talent away from the fans, if need be. This is one thing about professional arena security that I DO happen to know.



bullsville said:


> And lots of guys have had beers thrown on them


Name one. 

I'm not talking about a dousing as a player goes through the tunnel, which isn't unheard of, but is certainly uncommon. 

Name one NBA player who's caught a beer in the face as he sat on his bench or in the general vicinity of courtside. I certainly can't recall one.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> Bullsville, like me and GB, you and I will just have to agree to disagree. You're implicitly willing to give the fans a lot more latitude than I am, and you're just not grasping my basic point of security -- I'm not proposing security at urinals or a one-to-one ratio of security to fans or anything preposterous like that. And you couldn't be more wrong about the role of security at any sporting event. They are specifically trained not only in keeping fans away from the talent, but also in how to keep talent away from the fans, if need be. This is one thing about professional arena security that I DO happen to know.


You're right, we'll just have to disagree. The main thing I am saying is that it is all Artest's fault IMO, I know a lot of people don't agree but that's just me.



> Name one.
> 
> I'm not talking about a dousing as a player goes through the tunnel, which isn't unheard of, but is certainly uncommon.
> 
> Name one NBA player who's caught a beer in the face as he sat on his bench or in the general vicinity of courtside. I certainly can't recall one.


Not where Artest was, no I've never seen that, you're right. But I guess that's where we disagree, IMO Ron had no business going into the stands, something as blatant and obvious as throwing a beer at someone would have been noticed, and IMO the person who actually did it would have been punished. But Ron never let that happen, it might have if he would have just gotten up and said something to someone right away instead of sprinting straight for the stands and attacking the wrong guy. If he doesn't do that, the rest of the incident never happens.

I think it would be easy enough to install cameras in each arena that would cover each and every seat, so when something did happen people could be identified and punished.


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## Brian. (Jul 11, 2002)

What the fans did was incredibly stupid but artest has to keep his head. I have no problem with what the pacers did to the fans that went on the court. They deserved to get their *** kicked. Artest shouldn't have gone into the stands though thats when everything went nuts. I dug up an article from the white sox/tiger brawl a few years ago. Its obviously a different sport but at least Fick had sense enough not to go into the crowd.



> CLEVELAND -- What would the Tigers do if someone grabbed one of the player's hats, hit him with it and then started to run away -- which is what prompted the altercation between Cubs fans and the Dodgers on Tuesday night at Wrigley Field?
> * "If it was another player, I'd smoke him," said Robert Fick, who urged White Sox fans to "bring it on" last month when they threw beer on him following the brawls at Comiskey Park.
> "But if it's a fan, you know, there are certain things as a major-league player you shouldn't do."
> Such as go into the stands?
> ...


http://www.detnews.com/2000/tigers/0005/19/f05-58852.htm


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## grace (Mar 22, 2005)

bullsville said:


> I just don't agree with that. Like I said in an earlier post, outside of glass around the floor as in hockey or chicken wire like the old days, there is no way any NBA arena can stop a person with great tickets from throwing a beer at a player who is lying on the scorer's table.


At first glance what you're saying is true, but a visable security force is a good deterant. For example, at Conseco at every isle on the floor there is an usher and a Conseco security person. About 10 rows up in the isle is another usher. Chances are with that many eyes looking for trouble makers no one is going to try anything. If they do there's an excellent chance they're going to get caught.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

grace said:


> At first glance what you're saying is true, but a visable security force is a good deterant. For example, at Conseco at every isle on the floor there is an usher and a Conseco security person. About 10 rows up in the isle is another usher. Chances are with that many eyes looking for trouble makers no one is going to try anything. If they do there's an excellent chance they're going to get caught.


So that's what, 10 rows of seats, I'll be coservative and say 8 seats per row, that's 80 people to 6 security people? If a player goes into the stands and a riot ensues, those 4 ushers and 2 security people are going to be no match for the crowd.

The person in Detroit who threw the beer might well have been caught, but Artest didn't choose to go that route. That's why IMO he gets all the blame for the riot, he is the one that didn't let security handle the beer thrower. 

I agree that the more uniforms around the better, I'm just saying there is no way to have enough security to stop a riot if that is going to happen. It's up to the people in the stands not to riot, obviously, I would think that goes without saying. But one security guard can handle what, 10 people if they are big and strong and armed with mace and a stun gun? You cannot have enough security to stop a riot, unless you have 20,000 paying customers and 2,000 armed security.

THAT is why it is 100% on the players to not go into the stands. Ever.
_______________________________


"But if it's a fan, you know, there are certain things as a major-league player you shouldn't do."
Such as go into the stands?
"Yeah," Fick said. "As much as you'd want to, you pretty much have to let him go."


And thanks for the article Brian, the players there express what I am trying to say about the Golden Rule.


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## Bolts (Nov 7, 2003)

I saw the whole thing live on TV and not the edited reruns. The Detroit vermin went way to far. 

I think the NBA should hold all of the Pacers/Pistons games scheduled for the Palace at a neutral court location. That should teach the Pistons a lesson. Heck, hold the games at the United Center.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: pistons fans*

I am from the Detroit area and I goto DePaul. If I were at that game, I would have loved nothing more to throw the drink on Artest myself. He doesn't deserve to be in the NBA. Anyone who wants a month off to help produce music should just be banned from the league. My city will always recieve bad press but none of us care. Think what you want that is way we have a first amendment.


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## grace (Mar 22, 2005)

*Re: pistons fans*



kamego said:


> My city will always recieve bad press but none of us care.


Who voted you the city's spokesperson?


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

*Re: pistons fans*

A spectator tossed a drink at Nocioni, bringing to mind the incident that triggered mayhem and Ron Artest going into the stands at The Palace of Auburn Hills last November. The fan was ejected by security.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...gamer,1,4219914.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines

See how easy that was, Crazy Ron?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: pistons fans*

Chair Throwing Fan:












> A fan charged with throwing a chair during a fight among players and fans at a pro basketball game, one of the worst brawls in U.S. sports history, was sentenced Tuesday to two years of probation.
> 
> Bryant Jackson was the only one of the 13 players and fans charged with a felony in the Nov. 19 melee during an Indiana Pacers- Detroit Pistons game.
> 
> ...



http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050503/ap_on_sp_bk_ne/bkn_nba_brawl


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