# Kobe and the refs...



## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

Why does Kobe not get full respect from the refs? He's at 9.1 attempts per game this season, but he still doesn't get the respect he deserves. Why is it that refs allow him to get hammered in key situation of games? Is it cause he wines too much? I really don't know, but at times it can get annoying..... and I'm not usually one to cry about the refs, but it seems like it gets worse as every season passes. It's either that or I'm a Laker homer lol

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and who could forget about these games......

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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

While I have seen him hosed on several occasions he is complaining WAY too much


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## The One (Jul 10, 2005)

DaRizzle said:


> While I have seen him hosed on several occasions he is complaining WAY too much


agreed.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Ref's miss a lot of calls no doubt. I think Kobe get's hacked a lot, and doesn't get to the line nearly enough. However the refs swallow the whistle at times. GIven that, I do think Kobe has a terrible habbit of not getting the call, and then he quits on the play, and a lot of times teams take advantage of that. It's probably one of the things I thought would change as he got older, and more mature. However it seems to be sticking.


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

I agree with the above posts. He complains wayyyy too much. At some point the ref will just take it as trying to show him up.


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

I also agree Kobe complains too much, hence all the technicals this season, but I still don't get how as a NBA veteran he gets less benefit of a doubt then guys who have less time in the league.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

I think the crying and constant attempts to draw fouls are hurting him. The arm flailing, and double/triple head fakes, etc are getting old and the refs are seemingly less incline to call them lately.

Maybe it's a sign he should just go back to playing basketball, and worrying less about drawing the fouls.


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

A few weeks ago, J.A. Adande from espn , when asked who gets the least respect among superstar from the referees, he said, Kobe Bryant.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

Theonee said:


> A few weeks ago, J.A. Adande from espn , when asked who gets the least respect among superstar from the referees, he said, Kobe Bryant.


It's not hurting him that much. Currently he's #2 in the NBA for most free throws taken this season. And #4 in the leauge per 48.

Considering he doesn't drive half as much as he used to, I'd consider that impressive.


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

That is because he has played the most games.
He is not top two if you count attempts per game.


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## DANNY (Aug 9, 2005)

I'm glad the OP brought this up... quite frustrating to see kobe not get the same call opposition gets
I guess the lakers can only blame themselves... instead of playing through it they constantly whine and cry about it
kobe being #1 and sasha being #2 
now you see mr.ultimate professional derek fisher show more frustation the last few games(staring at the ref, rolling his eyes etc)
quite contagious in laker land right now


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Kobe was getting hacked all game and then they call off the dribble bumps for the Rockets. 

I think Kobe has grated on certain crews and they get fed up. 

Lebron and Wade get the most ridiculous bump fouls every time they drive Kobe gets hit and misses a layup and gets no call.

He has gotta just forget about fouls and play and run back on defense real hard. He's getting too preoccupied with the calls and not running back on defense.

Kobe has never developed the ability to politic with the refs, the media or teammates. He comes on strong always. He's hardly ever nice to the refs or says good call those small things buy good will from refs. 

Its all yelling and scraping with them all game long. 

He needs to start working the refs . 

Or the playoffs could get rough.


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## Yao Man.. (Jul 19, 2007)

I dont know if its jus something a laker fan sees, but for someone like me seeing it from the outside i see him get away with alot more then any other player in the league. Ive seen that man go hard in a refs face with not T's. And also you gotta think about some of the calls he gets to get to the line...I would have to say its more then fair.


"GO ROCKETS!"


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

WOW... and here I thought he got TOO much respect as a volume jump shooter.

Kobe is about the only guy that still gets the "pump fake then jump WAY into the defender to get a foul call" (as they changed the rule this season).

Complaining about refs is just insane... the team has like a +6 advantage the last 10 games or so... 

They are in 4th as having the least infractions differential.

That said... for the % of FTA's (based on FGA's) Kobe is going to the line at an impressive 16% of his FGA's.

Now... not one (NOT 1) player that has a higher % of FTA to FGA percentage than Kobe has the same percentage of jump shots.

Think about that... Kobe figures into the top 30 in this regard... but EVERY other player (that has a higher FTA to FGA ratio) that has a higher percentage has nearly the same FGA's as jump shots. 

Fully 75% of Bryant's FGA's come from 2 and 3 point jumpers... yet he still has a higher percentage of getting to the line per attempt than the leauge average. FAR more.

Compare this to say James... who only has a 17% FTA to FGA ratio. This DESPITE having 61% of his FGA's coming from 2 point and 3 point jump shot attempts.

Meaning... they have basically the same ratio DESPITE Kobe taking 14% more jump shots! And you want to rationalize this as "Kobe gets no love"?

Again... not 1 player above Kobe in this ratio take a higher percentage of jump shots.

The only player that is remotely close (in having a FGA vs FTA ratio with a similar percentage of jump shots) is Martin from Sactown... and he has a full 5% less attempts coming from a jumpshooters perspectives.

That ratio is reserved for guys like Howard (83% of his FGA's coming from non-jumpers).

Yet kobe has an astronomically huge bigger percentage of jump shots than anyone else that figures close to a FGA vs. FTA ratio.

And certainly (based on his volume) that translates to a WHOLE lot of oppurtunities at the line.

By the numbers (and figuring James takes a full 14% more of his shots from non-jumpers... I'd expect that HE should be complaining that he doens't get "Kobe-love" from the refs.


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## Imdaman (Nov 29, 2006)

Its not that he is not getting the calls it's just that he is not getting them like he used to. It has to be the constant complaining. He gets the calls on jump shots but not when he drives for a layup as much. I have noticed that when that happens he starts to shoot more jumpers cause I guess he believes he won't get the call. I wonder if Phil says anything about his complaining?


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

i would complain also if im getting hacked and not getting calls...


all this while wade gets treated like a princess


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Kobe just gets jobbed getting to the hoop its natural that he gets calls when he fakes because he's a good shooter.But he gets hakced hard going to theHoop and gets no calls.

Lebron gets every ticky tac call when he drives. 

My guess is because Lebron is so physically imposing and doesn't lose balance he looks in control and doesn't appear to be trying to draw fouls. 

Kobe is 40lb's lighter and when he drives he has to contort his body to finish and it appears possibly to refs that he's aiming to draw calls as opposed to just being hit.

But its so inconsistent there are games where he gets a bunch of calls driving and then there ar4e games where like the Rockets game where the refs just swallow the whitle. 

I think Kobe's numbers can be mainipulated to seem in his favor foul call wise BUT having watched all the games it swings wildly its not a consistent situation. 

I think him being the hardest player to guard in the league if the refs swallow whistles like the Rockets game and allow any manner of bumping grabbing and hand cheecking it begins to throw his shot off and frustrate him.

He needs to get more respect consistently foul call wise not the wild swings that occur.


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

ChosenFEW said:


> i would complain also if im getting hacked and not getting calls...
> 
> 
> all this while wade gets treated like a princess


Hmmmm... 

Again... the numbers don't warrant the above concerns.

your "princess" has an 18% FGA to FTA ratio... (compared to Kobe's 16%)

Despite taking over 10% less (of his shot volume) via jump shot. 

75% of Kobe's attempts are coming from jump shots... 

Again, no player remotely comes close to Kobe's high FGA vs. FTA ratio that comes close to the percentage of jump shots that he takes as part of their overall attempts.

Thats not skewed... its simple fact.

The question (by the numbers) isn't so much why Kobe gets so "little" love from the refs (given his shot selection)... but rather why he gets so MUCH (compared to his going to the basket contemporaries)?


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

LoyalBull, what other players get calls is irrelevant to this discussion. Kobe is the master of EARNING free-throws from a jump shot. He can swing his arms around and get the defenders arm all tangled up in his hence a foul is called. While I think he tries that tactic and the pump fake too much for my taste on jump shots nonetheless it makes people foul him a lot more on a J. 

Please tell me a player besides Kobe that puts in as much effort to get fouled on a jump shot...

That moves us to the (non) fouls when he drives to the hoop. In an ideal NBA he shouldn't be punished for earning calls on a J and driving, but I think he is. It was like Shaq in his prime, if you called every foul players did to him the game would be an extra hour long. The NBA doesn't want that. While I dont think it as extreme as the Shaq scenario it is similar.

Like I said before too....whining way too much regardless if he is right or wrong which make the refs turn a deaf ear to him


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

LoyalBull said:


> Hmmmm...
> 
> Again... the numbers don't warrant the above concerns.
> 
> ...


we're not talking about stat manipulation we're talking about game in and game out its very inconsistent.

Not average but practical in game stuff. 

He shoots 27 free throws against Dallas and then in last night game the refs swallow the whistle he shoots 4 free throws while being just as aggressive. 

We see this sorta stuff all the time.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

It's very frustrating when Kobe's getting into the lane, getting hit, and no call is being fouled. I know Kobe leads the league in free throw attempts a game, but the crazy thing is he should probably be getting more. He gets fouled many times throughout a game, but depending on the referee's moods that night, he might not get the calls.

And most fans of other teams will even tell you that when Kobe does get to the line 20+ times a game, they are all free throw attempts that he earned.


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

Thing is fellas... every other team with a superstar says the exact same thing!!!!!

Its not isolated to Kobe and Laker fans.

The numbers simply warrant that Kobe gets his just dues.

Again, it would seem the James fans are the ones with the reason to cry "foul".


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

LoyalBull said:


> Thing is fellas... every other team with a superstar says the exact same thing!!!!!


Kobe isnt every other superstar...please look to my earlier post about why and how...


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## Tyrellaphonte (Feb 21, 2004)

LoyalBull said:


> WOW... and here I thought he got TOO much respect as a volume jump shooter.
> 
> Kobe is about the only guy that still gets the "pump fake then jump WAY into the defender to get a foul call" (as they changed the rule this season).
> 
> ...



How long did it take you just now to hate on Kobe?

Is Kobe complaining getting old or is your constant Laker hating getting old? There's a reason why he complains its cuz he gets mugged everytime he drives and gets called about half the time. And he still has all those Free Throw attempts? All you have to do fool is watch a Laker game and if he still puts up all those free throws then that just means he should have almost double them anyways.


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

LoyalBull said:


> WOW... and here I thought he got TOO much respect as a volume jump shooter.
> 
> Kobe is about the only guy that still gets the "pump fake then jump WAY into the defender to get a foul call" (as they changed the rule this season).
> 
> ...


you need to watch Laker games more carefully. the past couple of meeting vs. the cavs have been a joke.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

By the way, I just watched the videos...and I completely remember that game against the Cavs...I couldn't believe how many times Kobe was hacked and nothing was fouled...it was pretty ridiculous.

And as for the Heat games, there's really not much to say. Just watch the videos, I suppose.


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## L.A. Guy (Jun 8, 2007)

LoyalBull said:


> Hmmmm...
> 
> Again... the numbers don't warrant the above concerns.
> 
> ...



So you are trying to make the argument that because Kobe gets most of his free throw from jump shots, then he doesnt deserve them when he does go to the line and gets fouled? Thats just retarded. Look at the number of shots kobe takes in the paint and the fouls called on those attempts. Your stats are manipulative, and dont mean anything because they dont tell the truth. You keep trying to compare his jump shot attempts and free throws from those shots, while you are ignoring the number of times he goes to the line when his shot attempts are in the paint, get it right.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

DaRizzle said:


> While I have seen him hosed on several occasions he is complaining WAY too much


Yea I agree.

And bit off-topic but, when Wade came back from injury he started driving again and wasn't getting many foul calls in the lane (particularly against guys like Bowen who hack down on the hands/arms whenever possible). But its not really a lack of respect, its just them toning down on the superstar calls (not so much of giving the star the benefit of doubt anymore) which I guess is what everyone's been wanting of the officials.


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## L.A. Guy (Jun 8, 2007)

Take a look at Kobe's shot selection in the houston game: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=280316010
Kobe had more than 8 field goal attempts from inside the free throw line, and he only got to the line twice.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

The thing is he does get burned on plays. He also burns others by drawing fouls that wouldn't naturally occur. You take the good with the bad.

The problem is when he stops to complain, while the other team runs a fast break and scores. When your the teams best defensive option, you need to complain when the ball isn't in play anymore. I can't think of a player who has stopped in the middle of a fast break, or at least jogged slowly on a return break while the other team scores than Kobe.

Kobe started out there year not complaining much at all. And he seemed to get a lot more respect by most standards than he does now. It gets to the point where the sometimes he complains and there was no foul at all.. Or he complains after he flails his arms to hit someone else for a foul. He's hurting himself more than helping himself.

Personally, I think he should go back to the way it was this season.. Go to the rack hoping your going to score, not looking for a way to get bailed out. If he bricks, he should hustle back to make the block. (Thats what I miss, I loved watching Kobe take a shot, brick it and then get so pissed off he'd run back while a fast break was in progress and block the guy who thought had an easy lay up. Don't you guys miss that to?)

So I'm not saying he doesn't have often times to complain. He does, but there is a time and place and right now his complaining is hurting the Lakers and not helping them at all.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

L.A Guy said:


> Take a look at Kobe's shot selection in the houston game: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=280316010
> Kobe had more than 8 field goal attempts from inside the free throw line, and he only got to the line twice.


This is an issue whenever the Lakers play physical teams. Boston, Houston, Detroit. Kobe has always had troubles getting to the line many times when facing the teams. It's just something thats apart of the game, and you adjust to. Kobe's the best player in the world, and the most prolific scorer of my life time. I think he can figure out a different way to score, aside from FT's.


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

This is when some of you get the reputation of being apologists.

In the face of actual quantifiable proof its still dismissed as "hating".

*Kobe bryant isn't any other superstar...*

No... he takes WAY more jumpshots... and still has a better ratio than most other superstars...

The real ire on your part isn't that he is getting "slighted" but that the margin of him getting more calls isn't greater between him and the next guy.

Volume jump shooters don't get as many foul calls... unless one's name is Kobe... and then it STILL isn't good enough for some of his fan-boys.:thinking2:

In the end, bringing actual numbers to support my opinion is "hating"... and those that don't have the support (beyond their opinion) to support their opinions are "correct".

D E N I A L.

Kobe gets his fair share... refs are bad for everyone. He (and apparently his fans) just cry about it more.:thumbdown:


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

LoyalBull said:


> This is when some of you get the reputation of being apologists.
> 
> In the face of actual quantifiable proof its still dismissed as "hating".
> 
> ...



I think lumping us all in one category is just as bad as all the Kobe fan's your criticizing. As I stated a few times before, I don't disagree with anything you said and I am very much a fan of Kobe. 

It's OK though. Continue with your stereotyping and rants.


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

Thanks...

Anyone want to check Hollinger's predicted marks for who has the best shot at eclipsing career marks...

Guess who projects to break the all time free throw mark?

Kobe.

Guess what... *when you project to have more free throws than anyone IN FREAKING NBA HISTORY.... *then you are getting "love".

Please... stop with the "Kobe can't buy a call" talk.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

LoyalBull said:


> This is when some of you get the reputation of being apologists.
> 
> In the face of actual quantifiable proof its still dismissed as "hating".
> 
> ...


Yeah I said that and if you would watch his tactics you would see that he goes about it differently when trying to get calls. What other calls players get is irrelevant. His % over the next guy is a pointless rebuttal to the fact that he tries to get the foul more than anybody I know (way more than the % difference in FT attempted)


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

DaRizzle... how can you dismiss applicability to anyone else and then cite that he tries to get the call from anyone else more than you know?

When saying he doens't get calls... how would you reason that statement without applying it to some other standard (like... um... OTHER PLAYERS?)

If there is nothing to compare it by... then how can a comparitive statement be made?

Especailly when people are discussing "other stars" in the equation.

While I understand that ignoring realities like "higher FTA to FGA ratio" than anyone else and "on track to be the ALL TIME FREE THROW LEADER" are things people here would like to ignore when making "kobe can't get love" arguments... it simply HAS to be applicable to any reasonable discussion.

If the assertion is that Kobe is getting "hosed" than one has to compare to his contemporaries... and by the numbers... he is BENEFITING more than he realitively should.

But apologists don't like when the argument skews against their hero. Certainly when it is overwelmingly contradictory to the inaccurate case being made.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

All Im saying is that if its a foul it should be called. I know the NBA refs aren't perfect but thats what I want. If that warrants too many calls and the game slowing down then maybe they should consider rule changes, they did for Shaq. Kobe is too good at getting a foul called with the rules the way they are. All I know is I see him in OBVIOUS situations where he is hammered and there is no call.


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

Shaq too... Lebron too... Wade too... KG too... Duncan too...

But by every measure... Kobe is "getting his" in comparison.

Its akin to being an ice cream truck driver and saying "I get paid unfairly" but you get paid far more substantially than the other ice cream truck drivers.

Kind of makes it hard to suggest that you aren't getting a "fair wage".


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

LoyalBull said:


> Kobe is "getting his" in *comparison*.


Thats my point!!! He isn't getting his for his individual efforts, instead they are just giving him an "average" amount of calls due to superstars.


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY above average for a volume jump shooter.

Again... almost scaringly skewed the OTHER direction... as in suspiciously TOO many calls (given where the bulk of his shots come from (jumpers) )


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## L.A. Guy (Jun 8, 2007)

LoyalBull said:


> WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY above average for a volume jump shooter.
> 
> Again... almost scaringly skewed the OTHER direction... as in suspiciously TOO many calls (given where the bulk of his shots come from (jumpers) )


First of all, you are trying to make it seem like Kobe is a catch and shoot guy. Where he is just spotting up and shooting. Kobe does take alot of jump shots, but he creates his own shots, and the fouls that he draws is because the way he creates the shots for himself and draws the foul. Most of the time where Kobe does not get a call is when he drives to the basket and gets hacked and no calls. You keep saying the same thing over and over "Volume jump shooter" It doesnt matter, if its a foul it should be called.


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## Tyrellaphonte (Feb 21, 2004)

LoyalBull said:


> WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY above average for a volume jump shooter.
> 
> Again... almost scaringly skewed the OTHER direction... as in suspiciously TOO many calls (given where the bulk of his shots come from (jumpers) )


Have you ever watched a Laker game... he takes jump shots yeah, but he drives to the rim just as much as other players too, just because he has one of the best jump shots in the league (not just pull up but fadeaway, pump fakes, etc..) does that mean he shouldn't get the call when he drives? Your argument makes no sense, if anything it just proves that even though he has so many calls that don't go his way even when he gets visually hacked, he still gets to the line more than average. So to someone who watches the Laker games routinely, when they see those stats it just proves to us that he should be getting maybe 20% FTA to FGA or something along those lines. Those stats to an actual Laker fan don't prove your point at all really.


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

Teezy said:


> Have you ever watched a Laker game... he takes jump shots yeah, but he drives to the rim just as much as other players too, just because he has one of the best jump shots in the league (not just pull up but fadeaway, pump fakes, etc..) does that mean he shouldn't get the call when he drives? Your argument makes no sense, if anything it just proves that even though he has so many calls that don't go his way even when he gets visually hacked, he still gets to the line more than average. So to someone who watches the Laker games routinely, when they see those stats it just proves to us that he should be getting maybe 20% FTA to FGA or something along those lines. Those stats to an actual Laker fan don't prove your point at all really.


Teezy... it makes ALL the sense in the world.

Follow the logic:

A.) Kobe gets AS good (better in most cases) a FTA vs. FGA ratio.
B.) He shoots over 15% more jumpshots than other high volume scoring swing men. 
C.) Players that "go to the basket" with far MORE regularity see far LESS FTAs vs. FGA's

In the end... saying that he should have the same ratio as guys like Shaq, Amare or Dwight Howard is just phenomenally shortsighted seeing as 80% plus of those guy's attempts are coming at the basket.


Kobe eclipses the vast majority of players in the game for him getting to the line (and based on his shot selection and volume this is SUBSTANTIAL).

Again, he is on pace to be the ALL TIME free throw leader. 

As in... HE IS ON PACE TO GET 'MORE LOVE' FROM THE REFS THAN ANY PLAYER IN HISTORY!

Yet... thats 'not good enough'.

Refs miss calls... same with any player, any superstar, any team, any era.

Kobe is getting love on levels that leaves his contemporaries in the dust... its just funny to see his apologists STILL think he is being slighted (despite EVERY quantifiable measure showing otherwise).

D E N I A L


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

^ And you keep going back to averages for the league instead of Kobe's particular tactics he uses to get fouled. Its a foul or it is not...screw averages of other players


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

^ thats becuase when someone (anyone) makes a realitive statement (i.e. getting 'jobbed' by the refs) such a claim can only be supported/confirmed/addressed in realitive terms.

Not getting a call is different than ref bias becuase then you have to compare Kobe's situation to those of his peers in order to make such a statement.

If "getting jobbed at the level that Kobe is getting jobbed" is "par for the course" than he isn't getting "jobbed" by the refs.

And as far as par for the course goes... Kobe is getting more than his fair share of love.

Again, on course to be the ALL TIME (like highest ever... _fo ever eva eva?... fo eva eva eva!... _free throw leader) 

You can't get more love than anyone in history and then say... "I'm getting jobbed".


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

I will assume you did your research correctly and concede that Kobe is (will be) the all time free throw leader. I'm referring to a perfect world scenario. I understand that will never happen, but there is a lot of room for improvement for the refs.

I will use your info to back up my opinion. Since he is getting more free throws then most then using the law of averages he must also be the recipient of the most non-calls in a foul situation. So right there he is getting jobbed more than most(yet ratio still even) but I will take it a step further. 

IMO the calls he does get will also make it less likely for a ref to blow the whistle in another situation where Kobe is fouled but he is already "on par for the course" for FT in the game. Its Shaq in his prime disease. Shaq shot a hell of a lot of free throws but does that make it untrue that he was fouled much more than was actually called? I say the same type of treatment is being givin to Kobe. Sure he might be leading the league in FT attempted (dont know about this year) but it should be by much more if you just watch the games and see Kobe's M.O. IMO he tries too damn hard to get the foul and rely on the refs calling it, but nonetheless they are un-called fouls.


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## ceejaynj (Oct 9, 2005)

DaRizzle said:


> While I have seen him hosed on several occasions he is complaining WAY too much


Most definitely!


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

As a Heat/Wade fan, I've found its best not to complain about lack of foul calls, even in a single game. It might be true but nobody's gona listen.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

^as a Wade fan(of playoff lore), yes...as a Kobe fan, no

BTW, I will also be the first to admit that in some situations he will vehemently complain that he got fouled when in fact there was none. IMO that hurts his chances of getting the real fouls called.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

DaRizzle said:


> ^as a Wade fan(of playoff lore), yes...as a Kobe fan, no
> 
> BTW, I will also be the first to admit that in some situations he will vehemently complain that he got fouled when in fact there was none. IMO that hurts his chances of getting the real fouls called.


My point is this: Kobe (or Wade..) might be mistreated through a game, or a stretch of games, but on the whole they are still superstars getting their superstar calls. The refs might be missing big calls here and there but because they're Kobe (or Wade..), noones gonna listen to you or take you seriously. It's gona be "Lol a Kobe/Wade fan complaining about lack of calls", followed by statistics of your free throw attempts compared to everyone else in the league.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

I agree that this type of talk falls on deaf ears. Doesn't make it not true. BTW get Wade out of this discussion(no disrespect), Im just focusing on Kobe and his particular game and TACTICS. Everyone will go back to their "but but but the averages say!" instead of seeing Kobe for a full season and actually sees what happens.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

DaRizzle said:


> I agree that this type of talk falls on deaf ears. Doesn't make it not true. BTW get Wade out of this discussion(no disrespect), Im just focusing on Kobe and his particular game and TACTICS. Everyone will go back to their "but but but the averages say!" instead of seeing Kobe for a full season and actually sees what happens.


I agree, and yes I'll pull Wade out :biggrin:


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

LoyalBull said:


> ^ thats becuase when someone (anyone) makes a realitive statement (i.e. getting 'jobbed' by the refs) such a claim can only be supported/confirmed/addressed in realitive terms.
> 
> Not getting a call is different than ref bias becuase then you have to compare Kobe's situation to those of his peers in order to make such a statement.
> 
> ...


Watch the games, posting stats are not the same as watching the actual games and witnessing him getting hacked and the calls not being made.


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

same can be said about EVERY player. 

So... why have a thread dedicated soley to Kobe?

Why? Because it is an apologist thread. As such, it should be pointed out as such.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Alright Im done...I point out gameplay, you point out what *other* players get instead of commenting on Kobe particular style of play...you're wrong, Im done trying to tell you why. Call it what you want, doesn't make you right.


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

Ok... but again, I don't know if the board can handle all the other threads dedicated to a specific player not getting foul calls.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

ha ha:raised_ey


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

LoyalBull said:


> same can be said about EVERY player.
> 
> So... why have a thread dedicated soley to Kobe?
> 
> Why? Because it is an apologist thread. As such, it should be pointed out as such.




Because this is a Laker forum, in case you're lost, the general forum is a couple of clicks away. We talk about the Laker organization here. Now Kobe can take 10 jump shots and drive the lane 12 times a game and get hammered every single time. So it doesn't matter if he is a volume jump shooter or not. If you want to talk about the other players make a thread on your own in the general forum. I made this because I felt Kobe is not getting the respect he deserves as a veteran in the league, not to dispute who gets more calls as superstars.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

I question the intelligence of someone who claims that the rate of jump shots are without exception directly related to FTA frequency. Bryant is more aggressive than any player in the league even on his jump shots, with an unequaled array of counters in his offensive arsenal, one of the best players in history in terms of body control, and the strongest guard in the league next to Wade.


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

Thats cool to question the intellegence behind the thinking...

However:

Thought #1: Jumpshooters do NOT get fouled as often as those in the post or going to the basket.

Supportbehind my thought: In EVERY regard, FTA vs. FGA ratios for jump shooters will prove this to be the case. Jump shooting teams go to the line less often. "Never foul a jump shooter... not never foul a guy going to the basket or in the post". 

Your counterthought: Kobe is um... different.

Thought #2: Kobe gets a lot of love from the refs (especially considering his shot selection).

Support: Kobe shoots 75% of his shot selection as jump shots. Given that he is amoung the leauge leaders for a FTA to FGA ratio and many of those he compares with are shooting that same percentage by the basket (where its universally proven to get a higher FTA to FGA ratio) 

Your counter thought: Kobe is um... different.

Thought #3: It seems odd to claim that Kobe is getting "hosed" by the refs when he is on pace to become the ALL TIME FREE THROW LEADER IN LEAUGE HISTORY.

Support: Um... more than anyone... um... in freaking history.

Your counter thought: He should lap the next highest guy.


Amazing how the apologists are STILL "poor Kobe" in their approach...


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

all i know is that kobe uses a lot of tactics, probably more than any other NBA player, to draw fouls.

i agree with fans here.. some games he can't buy a foul for some reason. it really affects the game, because if kobe's not getting foul calls, the defense will be even more aggressive on him.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Hey LoyalBull you are right...All superstars approach the game the exact same way and use the exact same moves. All jump shooters never pump fake and only go up completely perpendicular to the ground. There is no difference in Kobe's game compared to other "premier" players. Kobe is the average....


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

LoyalBull said:


> Thats cool to question the intellegence behind the thinking...
> 
> However:
> 
> ...


Except you're drawing a conclusion based on the mean while ignoring the outliers. Kobe Bryant is an outlier in this analysis for many reasons, most notably his repertoire of moves, which most would agree is rare, arguably one of the rarest of all time. To simply omit this completely and continue not to weigh it would, obviously, bias your premise. Whether that was your intent, simple omission, or what have you, I don't know. 



> Your counterthought: Kobe is um... different.


Good snide attempt to omit what I actually said, though even this botched attempt at faux rhetoric is actually quite superior to your original statement that distance from the basket is inversely related to FTA's without exception. Your argument being based on nothing more than _correlational_ conclusions, based on mean numbers while considering no other variables. You'd be a horrid statistics practitioner. 



> Thought #2: Kobe gets a lot of love from the refs (especially considering his shot selection).
> 
> Support: Kobe shoots 75% of his shot selection as jump shots. Given that he is amoung the leauge leaders for a FTA to FGA ratio and many of those he compares with are shooting that same percentage by the basket (where its universally proven to get a higher FTA to FGA ratio)


For one, your statistic of 75% is based on nothing more than 82games' web site. AFAIK 82games uses Lenovo stats, which are known for being questionable considering they do not define what a jump shot is. 7 feet or 8 feet out, and from inside or outside the paint? What if he operates from the pinch post and consistently gets penetration but pulls up mid post for a shot, is that "jumper" worth the same in value as a 25 foot 3-pointer? No, obviously not, and these questions matter. Have you considered any of these variables? I have my doubts. 



> Thought #3: It seems odd to claim that Kobe is getting "hosed" by the refs when he is on pace to become the ALL TIME FREE THROW LEADER IN LEAUGE HISTORY.
> 
> Support: Um... more than anyone... um... in freaking history.


A 1 minute search, off the top of my head no less, reveals that there are 3 players ahead of Bryant in league history in FTA per game (Jordan, Malone, Shaq). Though I'm guessing you're referring to total FTA's, the use of which is severely flawed if you're not controlling for the fact that Bryant was the youngest player in league history when he entered the NBA, giving him a full 4 NBA years ahead of the greats who have played the longest to rack up FT attempts. And I'd love to hear how Bryant is "on pace" to breaking either Karl Malone or Kareem Abdul Jabbar's FTA totals. As in what was your criteria and how on earth is it realistically possible for Bryant to break either man's total unless he doesn't get hurt ever again and plays until 40 (especially in comparison to Malone). 

Good argument. Though I suggest deeper thought and consideration next time, otherwise it just makes this conversation another blowout in my favor.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

EHL said:


> ...otherwise it just makes this conversation another blowout in my favor.


Hey, Im Batman in this argument, you are Robin! :biggrin:


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

EHL said:


> Good argument. Though I suggest deeper thought and consideration next time, otherwise it just makes this conversation another blowout in my favor.


:woot:


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## LoyalBull (Jun 12, 2002)

EHL said:


> Except you're drawing a conclusion based on the mean while ignoring the outliers. Kobe Bryant is an outlier in this analysis for many reasons, most notably his repertoire of moves, which most would agree is rare, arguably one of the rarest of all time. To simply omit this completely and continue not to weigh it would, obviously, bias your premise. Whether that was your intent, simple omission, or what have you, I don't know..


I've been consistent in that if one is to make use of other players (Wade for example) or to suggest Kobe is being "jobbed" insinuates that there is a standard to which he is being jobbed more or less than other people. Based on the facts, its fairly easy to conclude that Kobe isn't at a lack of love from the refs (espeically considering where the bulk of his shot selection comes from.

If you have promblems with my conclusions (based off of an opinion with numbers to support it)... it seems odd that you don't have issue with opinions with NO numbers to support it. 

But I digress...





EHL said:


> Good snide attempt to omit what I actually said, though even this botched attempt at faux rhetoric is actually quite superior to your original statement that distance from the basket is inversely related to FTA's without exception. Your argument being based on nothing more than _correlational_ conclusions, based on mean numbers while considering no other variables. You'd be a horrid statistics practitioner. .


Except that I never said that distance from the basket was inversely related to FTA's WITHOUT exception.

You did. 

Kind of hard to have conflicts with correlational conclusions when you are the one determining what my conclusion is with absolutes (when I have provided no such absolute, non-variable statements.)

In the end (as is typical) you are merely arguing with yourself.






EHL said:


> For one, your statistic of 75% is based on nothing more than 82games' web site. AFAIK 82games uses Lenovo stats, which are known for being questionable considering they do not define what a jump shot is. 7 feet or 8 feet out, and from inside or outside the paint? What if he operates from the pinch post and consistently gets penetration but pulls up mid post for a shot, is that "jumper" worth the same in value as a 25 foot 3-pointer? No, obviously not, and these questions matter. Have you considered any of these variables? I have my doubts. .


Again, my opinion is based on numbers. I didn't call for absolutes and "woulda coula shoulda". Merely that my opinions are backed by statistical data while the counter argument is based off of mere opinion.

Which is all the other side of the coin has to offer.



EHL said:


> A 1 minute search, off the top of my head no less, reveals that there are 3 players ahead of Bryant in league history in FTA per game (Jordan, Malone, Shaq). Though I'm guessing you're referring to total FTA's, the use of which is severely flawed if you're not controlling for the fact that Bryant was the youngest player in league history when he entered the NBA, giving him a full 4 NBA years ahead of the greats who have played the longest to rack up FT attempts. And I'd love to hear how Bryant is "on pace" to breaking either Karl Malone or Kareem Abdul Jabbar's FTA totals. As in what was your criteria and how on earth is it realistically possible for Bryant to break either man's total unless he doesn't get hurt ever again and plays until 40 (especially in comparison to Malone). .


I said that Kobe was on pace to be the all time free throw leader. Not FTA totals. 

Its in John Hollinger's analysis. 

Which of course you will dismiss.

Again, if you are on pace to be the all time FT leader... maybe the "doesn't get any love" crys are just that... a lot of blubbering by Kobe fan-boys.



EHL said:


> Good argument. Though I suggest deeper thought and consideration next time, otherwise it just makes this conversation another blowout in my favor.


Except, again, you have't so much pointed out why you are "right". Merely why you think I (and with my numbers to support what I am saying) am "wrong".

As such, claiming a victory based on why you "think" (without any data) I'm wrong... isn't exactly a "blowout".

In fact, at best, its a DNPCD.

But nice try.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

LoyalBull said:


> I've been consistent in that if one is to make use of other players (Wade for example) or to suggest Kobe is being "jobbed" insinuates that there is a standard to which he is being jobbed more or less than other people. Based on the facts, its fairly easy to conclude that Kobe isn't at a lack of love from the refs (espeically considering where the bulk of his shot selection comes from.
> 
> If you have promblems with my conclusions (based off of an opinion with numbers to support it)... it seems odd that you don't have issue with opinions with NO numbers to support it.
> 
> But I digress...


I wasn't addressing any other argument about Kobe getting jobbed on calls, because on average he doesn't. Me not addressing those other arguments is simply a direct result of you perpetuating a transparent anti-Kobe agenda which, despite in your case using numbers, you use the wrong ones or make the wrong conclusions anyway, which makes your argument about as well supported as everyone else's. 



> Except that I never said that distance from the basket was inversely related to FTA's WITHOUT exception.
> 
> You did.
> 
> ...


Oh, OK, so you're saying that Bryant can reasonably be considered an exception to the rule of FTA --> distance from basket argument? But then aren't you, uh, admitting that the half a dozen posts you spent explaining your position previously in this thread are all pretty much null and void if Bryant is an exception given variables such as offensive arsenal or bball IQ? Why did you completely fail to qualify your statements if you are now telling us that you were well aware there are exceptions? Why wasn't that weighted in your original comments? My guess; because you didn't really care about being fair. That's just a wild guess though (no, actually, it isn't :laugh: ). 



> Again, my opinion is based on numbers. I didn't call for absolutes and "woulda coula shoulda". Merely that my opinions are backed by statistical data while the counter argument is based off of mere opinion.
> 
> Which is all the other side of the coin has to offer.


Just because your argument _uses_ numbers doesn't mean they actually _apply_. I can talk about how good a player someone is with numbers, but if those numbers included stats like "Bryant glares on the mean 7 times per game", those numbers wouldn't make a damn difference now would they? 

And in any case, why not address the accuracy of your statistics? There's no way to avoid that you simply don't know if that 75% statistic is accurate given you don't know the criterion used for defining what a jump shot is. 



> I said that Kobe was on pace to be the all time free throw leader. Not FTA totals.
> 
> Its in John Hollinger's analysis.
> 
> ...


So you lifted analysis from John Hollinger that you don't even understand? Doesn't exactly help your case, unless of course you can enlighten us as to how a player can be the all time FT leader when he doesn't outpace players like Jordan or Malone in FTA per game up to the same age (29) and neither will he realistically achieve the FTA totals of Malone or Jabbar even though he will have played in the NBA at 18-21 years old (unlike Malone/Jabbar) and even if he plays until 40. 



> Except, again, you have't so much pointed out why you are "right". Merely why you think I (and with my numbers to support what I am saying) am "wrong".
> 
> As such, claiming a victory based on why you "think" (without any data) I'm wrong... isn't exactly a "blowout".
> 
> ...


You haven't addressed any of my points regarding what constitutes a jump shot (which was my direct question to your use of the 75% jumpers stat), you haven't addressed why Bryant's counters/offensive creativity should/shouldn't be weighted in a discussion about FTA frequency (in fact, you have actually backtracked), and you haven't explained how Bryant is on pace to be the all time FT leader because, apparently, you are conceding that Hollinger is accurate without actually understanding his analysis for yourself. The fact that you don't think this is a blowout in my favor is, well, your prerogative. I'm sure those who despite Bryant as much as you do will rejoice in your brilliant use of "but he takes lots of jumpers" argument based on a statistic that you have no understanding of, since it doesn't reveal its criterion. And if it did, why no elaboration on it on your part given that I directly asked you to support your viewpoint? Seems like you're just trying to save face at this point, but continue along your merry way I suppose.


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