# Best backcourt in the nation?



## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

What backcourt do you like the best. Personally, and this might be a homer pick, but I've been pleasantly surprised with my Zags back court of Raivio, Pargo and P-Mac. Add Bouldin off the bench and at any time you have a solid back court in any facet of the game. Defensively with P-Mac and Pargo, passing with Bouldin and Pargo, 3-point shooting with Derek and Pargo, rebounding with Bouldin and P-Mac...I don't think there's anything they can't do. 

Raivio: ppg 18.9, rpg 4.5, apg 2.3, FG% 45%, 3FG% 45%
Pargo: ppg 9.9, rpg 3.6, apg 3.5, FG% 53%, 

I was impressed with Arizona's backcourt today of Shakur and Williams as well.

After a couple beers and thinking about my Zags, I'm stoked for this season of college hoops.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

I've always been someone who says "Gonzaga is nice and all, but they just don't have enough to make any real noise." Not this year! Gonzaga is the best they have ever been and they're only going to get better as the year goes on. They seem to have a lot of young and inexperienced players.


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## DaBruins (Jul 30, 2003)

With the way Collison has been playing lately, I'd take our backcourt matchup over the Zags or Cats


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I also think the Lawson-Ellington is a nice backcourt, maybe not as good as the ones mentioned but pretty good nonetheless


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

if they aren't already, a few more games, and UNC's will be the best. they're close right now.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Texas A&M - better then Gonzaga


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## Middy (Jul 16, 2002)

Some systems, such as Arizona's, put lineups on the floor in which the 2 and the 3 are the same position. If we are going to count SF's who play SG roles for their team, some teams have an advantage in this question (like Arizona, who may have the best set of wings and guards in the country).


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The best backcourt resides in Wichita, Kansas.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

HKF said:


> The best backcourt resides in Wichita, Kansas.


After watching there game on Saturday I am not so sure about that... as brilliant as the "team" and teh guards were in moving the ball around in the 27-1 run in the first half, the Wichita St. guards really broke down in SU's 21-2 run in the last five minutes under the pressure.

The guards also did a questionable job of moving the ball in the countless times they broke the trap and had odd man rushes to the basket. For a time SU did a better job defending 2-1 or 3-2 breaks then when Wichita St set up in their sets. They did pick apart the 2-3 zone, until we started pressing and trapping out of it.

Given the way they folded down the stretch I am hesistant to bestow such an honour to the Wichita St. guards/


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## BlueBaron (May 11, 2003)

Definitely UNC. Ellington may be my new favorite non UK player. He is absolutely unreal.


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## Palehosefan (Aug 26, 2006)

I like OSU and UNC's backcourt the best right now. Marquette is also on my list, but their amount of turnovers did them in for me.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

When did this become the most talented and best pro potential backcourt thread. We are talking about the best COLLEGE backcourts. UNC does not qualify for that at this point... not close.


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## E-MO_416 (Oct 17, 2006)

I love our backcourt up in unc, I also like the backcourt in osu with ron lewis and Conley, and whoever is playing with Ronald Steele(best player in cbb imo) will form a good backcourt lol. With all that said I would have to go with the backcourt in virginia Reynolds/Singletary. Talent wise they are not the best but they get the job done. They are mature and play well together to form a deadly duo.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Kansas. I love the way they get after it on defense. Now if they can only show up for every game.


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## Palehosefan (Aug 26, 2006)

> When did this become the most talented and best pro potential backcourt thread. We are talking about the best COLLEGE backcourts. UNC does not qualify for that at this point... not close.


Both Lawson and Ellington are averaging at least 10 ppg and are shooting atleast 50% from the floor. Who do you see that's clearly better? I know you have always hated UNC, so I'm not really sure why I'm asking. 

Ellington, 14 ppg
Lawson, 10 ppg 4 apg

Carter, 12 ppg
Law III, 15 ppg 5 apg

UNC has played OSU, Gonzaga, Tennessee, Kentucky, and Winthrop
A&M has played ..........


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Afflalo: 16.7 PPG | 2.2 Boards | 2.3 Dimes | 1 Steal | 46.3% FG | 31.6% 3PT | 1.2 Turnovers
Collison: 12 PPG | 2.3 Boards | 6.8 Dimes | 3.2 Steals | 54.5% FG | 37.5% 3PT | 2.5 Turnovers

No consideration?


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## Palehosefan (Aug 26, 2006)

Yep they definitely belong in the coversation as well.


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## Middy (Jul 16, 2002)

Mustafa Shakur - 12.2 ppg, 8.3 apg, 3.5 rpg, 47.6% FGs, 40% 3pts
Chase Budinger - 19.8 ppg, 2.3 apg, 7.7 rpg, 59.2% FGs, 37% 3pts

That's a pretty solid PG/SG.

Our other two backcourt players are:

Marcus Williams - 17.0 ppg, 1.3apg, 6.3rpg, 51.8% FGs, 41.1% 3pts
Jawann McClellan - 14.3ppg, 1.5apg, 5.2rpg, 51.9% FGs, 48% 3pts

Offensively, that set of guards is very hard to match statistically. Defensive stats are another story, which makes this argument mroe interesting.

Are we talking about who has the best overall guards, or who has the most game changing players in their backcourt?


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Budinger plays more of the 3 than he does the 2. At least when I've been watching it seems like Lute plays Williams at the 2 and Budinger at the 3. 

Either way, that is certainly one of the better backcourts in the nation.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

qross1fan said:


> Afflalo: 16.7 PPG | 2.2 Boards | 2.3 Dimes | 1 Steal | 46.3% FG | 31.6% 3PT | 1.2 Turnovers
> Collison: 12 PPG | 2.3 Boards | 6.8 Dimes | 3.2 Steals | 54.5% FG | 37.5% 3PT | 2.5 Turnovers
> 
> No consideration?


Collison impresses me a lot. I think when all is said and done he will be a better point guard than Farmar. His length and defensive abilities is what I like a lot about him.

I've always been an Afflalo fans as well, but with him he's either really hot, or really cold.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Palehosefan said:


> Both Lawson and Ellington are averaging at least 10 ppg and are shooting atleast 50% from the floor. Who do you see that's clearly better? I know you have always hated UNC, so I'm not really sure why I'm asking.
> 
> Ellington, 14 ppg
> Lawson, 10 ppg 4 apg
> ...


I don't really hate UNC - not a fan. But I am certainly not biased. Alot of times I am wrong, but accusing me of being biased is dumb. 

I can just see where UNC fan is heading in these threads... UNC fan says they have the best backcourt, and then if I go and start a best frontcourt,,, UNC fan says they have the best frontcourt. Well why even bother playing the season... let's give them the national title. If they have the best backcourt and frontcourt, then by extension you are saying they clearly the best team in America by a fairly large margin.... which is not the case. 

Anyway,

1. Posting stats where teams play different flows, and have different amount of possessions, is about as useless as hen**** on a pumphandle. Don't you think comparing gross stats when a team plays an 80-90 point flow is stupid compared to a team that plays a 60-70 flow.

2. How is the quality of schedule relevant? Oh wait, wait I got it. Your assuming putting up gross statistics on quality opponents will make your comparison better. DId you ever figure that the guys on A&M are not playing many minutes right now because they are blowing out the opposition. Sure it's harder to put up numbers against good teams. But it's also harder to put up numbers when:
a) you are benched in a blowout
b) you play a slower tempo

3. There is much more to guards then gross PPG And APG Stats. Texas A&M guards exert alot more energy on defence and are much more effective defenders. 

4, There are some brutal teams thar are averaging 70 ppg. I am sure they have a couple of guards that are putting double digits as well.


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## TucsonClip (Sep 2, 2002)

I would put Arizona in this thread, but we are starting 4 guards...

In Lute's system the 2 and the 3 are the same position.

Mustafa and any of the other 3 guards would be in the top 10.


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## Palehosefan (Aug 26, 2006)

> 1. Posting stats where teams play different flows, and have different amount of possessions, is about as useless as hen**** on a pumphandle. Don't you think comparing gross stats when a team plays an 80-90 point flow is stupid compared to a team that plays a 60-70 flow.


A&M's two guards are playing 7.7 more minutes a game than UNC's. UNC as a team does average 10 more shots a game A&M, but not enough to make a gigantic difference. 



> 2. How is the quality of schedule relevant? Oh wait, wait I got it. Your assuming putting up gross statistics on quality opponents will make your comparison better. DId you ever figure that the guys on A&M are not playing many minutes right now because they are blowing out the opposition. Sure it's harder to put up numbers against good teams. But it's also harder to put up numbers when:
> a) you are benched in a blowout
> b) you play a slower tempo


Of course they are playing less minutes, but so is everybody in America. Yes, UNC plays at a faster pace, 10 more shots a game as I previously noted, but UNC also has a 5 guard rotation. 



> 3. There is much more to guards then gross PPG And APG Stats. Texas A&M guards exert alot more energy on defence and are much more effective defenders.


Lawson and Ellington exert a lot of energy on defense as well, but they are freshmen and still learning how to play proper defense. Both have the quickness to be more than capable defenders. If they won't play defense, they won't play, period.



> 4, There are some brutal teams thar are averaging 70 ppg. I am sure they have a couple of guards that are putting double digits as well.


It's not just about double digits, most teams will have their guard tandem in double digits. But most teams don't have the top PG and top SG in a recruiting class playing beside each other. 



> I don't really hate UNC - not a fan. But I am certainly not biased. Alot of times I am wrong, but accusing me of being biased is dumb.
> 
> I can just see where UNC fan is heading in these threads... UNC fan says they have the best backcourt, and then if I go and start a best frontcourt,,, UNC fan says they have the best frontcourt. Well why even bother playing the season... let's give them the national title. If they have the best backcourt and frontcourt, then by extension you are saying they clearly the best team in America by a fairly large margin.... which is not the case.


You have always shown a dislike for UNC, even from the Fanhome days, but that's beside the point. 

Yes you would hear an argument of Hansbrough and Wright being the best frontcourt in the nation, as they are worthy. OSU, Kansas, and probably even Florida fans would have the same argument for both frontcourt and backcourt. Having the best players doesn't always mean you have the best team, you know that. But clearly UNC, OSU, Kansas, Florida etc are elite teams, I'm sure you can see that as well. Texas A&M has a very good backcourt, and a solid frontcourt if Jones can stay healthy, but I don't think they could hang with the aformentioned.


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## E-MO_416 (Oct 17, 2006)

I would have put the cats at number one but other than Shakur I was not sure about who was in the backcourt. I thought it was Mcclelan(sp).


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## Ghost (Jun 21, 2002)

1. Arizona
2. Texas A&M
3. UCLA
4. UNC
5. Duke


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Wow - Duke? I don't know about that. Paulus is horrible.


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## Gtown07 (Dec 10, 2003)

I'm not sure how you guys are framing this argument but if you consider all of the team's traditional guards within reason here are my thoughts:

I think when determining the best back courts (OSU, UNC, and Zona) you have look at Buddinger and what you consider him. If you count him as a guard, there really isn't a contest here. Shakur (slightly overrated still), Buddinger, J.McClellan and Williams are a sick foursome. No one is matching their scoring, athleticism or play making ability. Also you have two lotto guys in Buddinger and Williams this year. 

OSU's Conley, Cook, Butler, etc. are very good as well. You can't really say anything bad about them but the sheer talent of Zona is just too strong.

And I love Tywon Lawson and Wayne Ellington but they aren't better than Zona either. Also I think UNC is helped by arguably the best scoring front court in the country in Wright and Hansbrough.

I'll put A&M next. Acie Law is nasty but he doesn't have the killer complements that these other 3 teams have. The three teams above him have lottery Sg's.

Here's my top 10:

1. Arizona
2. Ohio St. 
2a. UNC
4. Texas A&M
5. Marquette (Dominic James is the country's best pg)
6. Kansas
7. UCLA (Collison's steady improvement may move this team up quickly)
8. Wichita St. 
9. Gonzaga (LOVE Pargo but Raivio is very overrated)
10. Alabama (Gotta give Steele some love)


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## YoungMufan34 (Dec 1, 2006)

i like marquettes the best


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## Rids (Dec 5, 2006)

Gtown07 said:


> Here's my top 10:
> 
> 1. Arizona
> 2. Ohio St.
> ...


Raivio is a hot and cold guard. Last game he woke up and beat Texas nearly by himself. 27 points on 7 3s! Add in 4 assists and Raivio was responsible for 35 of the 87 points. Tonight he's already up at 21 points with a full 10 minutes to go. Gonzaga has been a two pass bucket team for years going back to the time before Turiaf when they had Ritchie Frahm and Casey Calvary taking care of business. Raivio's numbers 19.8 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 2.4 apg and 46.7% from 3 point land from a guy that shoots nearly 7 3s a game. Sure his assists should be higher to push Gonzaga up the polls but I don't think he's overrated by any of the publications. Maybe if you live up in the Inland Northwest you could say it.


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## Rids (Dec 5, 2006)

Whoa missed the Duke reference in my post. Paulus has had a tough time making good passes and hanging onto the ball (3.8 TO/game) but is averaging 4.0 apg while the big jump in the Duke backcourt has been DeMarcus Nelson. Leads the team in scoring (14.0 ppg), second in rebounding (5.4 rpg), and while not shooting JJ Redick numbers isn't hurting the 7-1 Blue Devils. That being said I'm not calling for Duke to be in the top ten for backcourts especially when everything runs through McRoberts but they aren't #336 either.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Ghost said:


> 1. Arizona
> 2. Texas A&M
> 3. UCLA
> 4. UNC
> 5. Duke


Gonzaga> UNC and Duke.

Look past the big time names and look at production.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Gtown07 said:


> I'm not sure how you guys are framing this argument but if you consider all of the team's traditional guards within reason here are my thoughts:
> 
> I think when determining the best back courts (OSU, UNC, and Zona) you have look at Buddinger and what you consider him. If you count him as a guard, there really isn't a contest here. Shakur (slightly overrated still), Buddinger, J.McClellan and Williams are a sick foursome. No one is matching their scoring, athleticism or play making ability. Also you have two lotto guys in Buddinger and Williams this year.
> 
> ...



Derek's "overrated"?

I didn't even know he was rated. Who is talking about him among the best guards in the country? Nobody. How many guards in the country can you say shoot 50% from three point land and account for 20 points a night.


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## E-MO_416 (Oct 17, 2006)

I am not sure about the Arizona backcourt because I do not know who is playing along side Shakur. I believe it is Mclellan and Buddinger/Williams/Redemovic are in the frontcourt. Even then, if it is Mclellan that duo is in the top 5. 

I cant belive people are not putting Virginia's backcourt of Renolds and Singletary in the top 5. They are the heart and sould of their team. Look at these numbers:

Sean Singletary: 17ppg/6apg/6rpg
J.R Reynolds : 15ppg/4apg/5rpg
They may not be the most talented but they account for most of the teams offence and they even rebound very well. They also play good D.


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## Ghost (Jun 21, 2002)

zagsfan20 said:


> Gonzaga> UNC and Duke.
> 
> Look past the big time names and look at production.



The Ravio homerism starts again, I can see Gonzaga better than Duke but not UNC.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Ghost said:


> The Ravio homerism starts again, I can see Gonzaga better than Duke but not UNC.


Experienced guards over young, inexperienced guards any day of the week.


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## Ghost (Jun 21, 2002)

zagsfan20 said:


> Experienced guards over young, inexperienced guards any day of the week.


I like Ravio's ability to shoot, that's it.


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Ghost said:


> I like Ravio's ability to shoot, that's it.


and average almost 5 rebounds a game, is a pesky defender, draws defenses to him which creates opportunities for his teammates.


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## Ghost (Jun 21, 2002)

zagsfan20 said:


> and average almost 5 rebounds a game, is a pesky defender, draws defenses to him which creates opportunities for his teammates.



I'd take Ravio 3rd out of the Gonzaga guards


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Ghost said:


> I'd take Ravio 3rd out of the Gonzaga guards


You wouldn't want the leading scorer who's shooting nearly 50% from the downtown and from the field?

Hey, whatever floats your boat.


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## Ghost (Jun 21, 2002)

zagsfan20 said:


> You wouldn't want the leading scorer who's shooting nearly 50% from the downtown and from the field?
> 
> Hey, whatever floats your boat.



I would take Pargo and Bouldin over Ravio, yes


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

i know he can shoot the rock, but does Ravio play defense?


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## Ghost (Jun 21, 2002)

TM said:


> i know he can shoot the rock, but does Ravio play defense?



in my mind no, but take that for what it's worth, I am a huge ravio hater.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Zags fans, I'm just curious what you think of the Georgia backcourt? 

:clap2: 

Sorry, I agree with Gonzaga having one of the top 5 guard rotations in the country. But I couldn't resist. 

Duke's guards are terrible.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Jone Scheyer, DeMarcus Nelson, and your beloved Gerald Henderson.



> Duke's guards are terrible.


right 

BTW, Greg Paulus _is_ terrible


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## zagsfan20 (Dec 24, 2004)

Jonathan Watters said:


> Zags fans, I'm just curious what you think of the Georgia backcourt?
> 
> :clap2:
> 
> ...


Mercer and Stukes are damn good.


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## Ghost (Jun 21, 2002)

Jonathan Watters said:


> Zags fans, I'm just curious what you think of the Georgia backcourt?
> 
> :clap2:
> 
> ...



I wonder how good they would be with Louis Williams


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## Standens2 (Dec 23, 2003)

Here's somebody nobody has mentioned. 

Oregon?

Tajuan Porter - 18 ppg, 2 rpg, 3 apg, 1.5 spg
Bryce Taylor (best guard) - 17 ppg, 6 rpg, 3 apg, only 1.3 TO, 59% from the field, 44% from 3 (1.75 points per shot) He's also the best perimeter defender on the team
Aaron Brooks - 15 ppg, 4 rpg, 5 apg
Malik Hairston - 13 ppg, 6 rpg, 2 apg, 55% from the field

I guess you could argue that since they start 4 guards and Taylor and Hairston have been guarding other teams' 4's, he could be a forward, but they are all officially "guards."

I'm not even really counting Chamberlain Oguchi, who is hurt right now but is arguably the best pro prospect out of all the guards after the way he finished off last year.

As far as quality numbers, I think Oregon has as many really good guards as anybody except perhaps the big-time powerhouses.


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## ehizzy3 (Jun 12, 2006)

i like unc's and ucla's.

also oregon state has a stellar backcourt :chill:


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## Standens2 (Dec 23, 2003)

Oregon State? 

You sure? Josh Tarver and Wesley Washington?


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

TM said:


> BTW, Greg Paulus _is_ terrible


Who could have known that refusing the opportunity to play college football was a mistake. Oh that's right, everybody.


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