# Nelson=Mateen Cleaves anyone?



## zzz123steve (Jun 25, 2004)

Aren't the two 1 in the same? Are we giving TOO much credit to this guy because we've seen him play more than others and he's a feel good story? He is not worth Orlando's pick next year.


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## MAS RipCity (Feb 22, 2003)

I couldn't agree more...a while back I was calling Jameer the next Mateen Cleaves.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

I wasn't going to post anything because it's probably bad karma, but yeah, I breathed a sigh of relief when Golden State picked Biedrins* because I thought for sure we were going to end up with Nelson. I think he's an ok pick, and could end up being a very solid point, but the reality is that college point guards like him bust hard as often as the big stiffs and yet have much less upside.

I think he's the kind of pick, moreso than others, where there's a slight chance that he turns out to be a good player and likable and everyone taunts the people who passed up on him -- yet if he turns out to be at best a 2nd unit guy like I assume alot of GMs thought, no one really goes off about how it was a good thing to steer clear. 

*As for Biedrins, some of you might be thinking he's as likely a bust as Nelson, and that may be true but the ceiling of a 7 foot young, inside and defensive minded player is much much greater than the undersized point guard.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

Nelson is not the next Mateen Cleaves. Chris Duhon is. Jameer Nelson has very good passing abilities and a jumpshot, not to mention a good fastbreak game. He won't be a star but will be a solid role player. Chris Duhon, on the other hand, has a lot of heart but the only thing he'll be top at in the league is cheerleading, he might give Cleaves a run for his money.


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## soopahpit (Jun 1, 2004)

I have heard this comparison several times and it blows my mind that anyone could even think this. People who say this don't know basketball very well.

They are not even close.

1. Mateen was not athletic. Slow without much quickness. Could compete in college, but lacked the athleticism for the NBA

Jameer was ranked as the 3rd most athletic prospect in this draft. His lane agility score was one of the top in the draft, not to mention his agility score last year would have been #1. He had by far the most strength of any PG in this draft (15 reps of 185... half the powerforwards in the NBA can't do that).

2. Mateen can not shoot (40.6 FG% 31.3 3pt%). He had a low shooting percentage both from the field and from 3pt. Scouts knew he wouldn't amount to much in the NBA because they complained about his slow and floppy release.

Jameer shot %47 from the field and %39 from 3pt (he shot from 3 about what Mateen shot from the floor). 

3. Mateen could not play defense (1.6 spg). Not necessarily a lack of effort, maybe due to lack of athleticism.

Jameer was one of the best point guard defenders in the NCAA, averaging about 3 steals per game (1st team A10 all defense). 

The only thing they share is heart and leadership. Jameer has the athleticism, shot, and defense to go with it.


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## budselig (Jun 18, 2004)

They aren't even close. If you want to see someone who will have a Cleaves-type impact in the NBA, look no further than Chris Duhon. I'm obviously not high on Nelson, because he's a midget, but he has the ability to play basketball in the pros. Unlike Cleaves.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

Looking at the other replies, I never really addressed the topic, just dissed on Nelson.

Soooo.. I think Nelson is a better player and athlete than Cleaves, and whereas Cleaves had the ceiling of being a solid back-up point,and I feel Nelson has the ceiling of being an above average starting point.

The parts of the comparison that work are the fact that they are college cinderella guys who the fans are enamored with and have alot of intangibles that are not easiliy translated to the NBA game, yet were a big part of their college success. They're risky picks in many ways because you get blasted if you skip them and they do succeed because everyone loves em, and yet those people disappear if you draft him and he sucks haaard.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

Jameer can play... he's built like a linebacker, he's a scorer, he's a scrappy, up-tempo player... he's going to do wery well in the NBA.


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## Priest (Jun 24, 2003)

am i the only one that jameer is going to be a star one day


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

That's not fair to Jameer. Mateen was a nice distributor, but isn't the scorer that Nelson is.


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

> He is not worth Orlando's pick next year.


Doesn't really matter if he is or isn't, considering we didn't trade our pick next year. We traded Washington's. Do your homework.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Is this a joke?


Cleaves did not succeed in the NBA because he could not shoot worth a damn. Heck he could not get a golf ball in the basket if he tried. And he was not athletic enough to just play defense, he was to slow.

Nelson on the other hand is not to slow, he is athletic, and he has a wonderful jumpshot, is a perfect pure PG and had great handles and creative ability.


This is a joke making this comment right?


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## RollOutPnoy (Jan 22, 2003)

I think Jameer will be a solid player in the NBA. He will not be an All-Star but can become a Derek Fisher type player.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

At best I think Jameer = Lindsey Hunter


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## zzz123steve (Jun 25, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Priest</b>!
> am i the only one that jameer is going to be a star one day


No there are other uninformed beings that call your dreamworld home.


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## zzz123steve (Jun 25, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> 
> 
> Doesn't really matter if he is or isn't, considering we didn't trade our pick next year. We traded Washington's. Do your homework.


I appologize. I guess I didn't realize that Washington's pick was going to be that much lower than Orlando's.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

one was a premiere 3 point shooter
and the other one wasnt

I dont think just because they both were short college pgs instantly means you have to assume their pro careers with go the same.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>nbanoitall</b>!
> one was a premiere 3 point shooter
> and the other one wasnt
> 
> I dont think just because they both were short college pgs instantly means you have to assume their pro careers with go the same.


Exact;y these posters show they're lack of knowledge for the game when they come up with these ridiculous coments or dont have enough reasons to back up theyre stance besides the fact that hes 5'11. sad quite sad


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## Priest (Jun 24, 2003)

1st off am i the only person who feels that nelson is going to be on the all star team a couple of times and two why hasnt anyone started up a fan club:upset:


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Priest</b>!
> 1st off am i the only person who feels that nelson is going to be on the all star team a couple of times and two why hasnt anyone started up a fan club:upset:


If someone does start a Jameer fan club, I would like to be in it.


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## edgaraven (Jun 22, 2004)

I agree with those who question the Mateen Cleaves comparison. Outside of them both staying through their senior seasons and being considered inspirational 'leaders' of their teams, they don't share a lot of the same PG qualities. Cleaves was a classic pass-first PG. He was way too slow to be more than a backup at the NBA level, though, and his poor outside shooting made him expendable, even then.

Nelson's far from a sure-fire starter at the NBA level, himself, but he does compare favorably to a player like Timmy Hardaway in his best case scenario. Like Timmy, Nelson's got a strong build and has good lateral quickness, which will help compensate a bit for his lack of height. The bulk will protect him a bit when he penetrates into the paint, and the quickness (coupled with a very good cross-over) will allow him to create space for the pass or the shot. He has a nose for the basket, like Hardaway did, and is a strong floor leader.

I'd say that a team would be better off projecting Derek Fisher or Travis Best type contributions from him, though, as that seems to be about the median expectation for a player with his particular skills. Best, like Nelson, was a very impressive looking collegiate PG at Georgia Tech. Taking over for the departed Kenny Anderson, Best emerged as a top scoring point, putting up 20.6 pts, 5.0 ast, 3.2 reb, and 2.0 stl in his senior year. It was good enough to get Indiana to take him at #23 in the '95 draft. He's since carved out a respectable career as a backup and occasional starter in the NBA. 

My guess? I think Nelson's more talented than Fisher and Best, so I think somewhere in between their level and Hardaway's is not out of the question for Jameer. Of course, it may be a little while before we get a chance to find out. If Orlando trades for Francis, Nelson goes from potential starter to backup.. just like that.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>nbanoitall</b>!
> one was a premiere 3 point shooter
> and the other one wasnt
> 
> I dont think just because they both were short college pgs instantly means you have to assume their pro careers with go the same.


No ****. I don't follow college at all really, and I know that they are exteremly different types of pointguards.


Nelson is going to be a Sam Cassell lite.


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## zzz123steve (Jun 25, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> Exact;y these posters show they're lack of knowledge for the game when they come up with these ridiculous coments or dont have enough reasons to back up theyre stance besides the fact that hes 5'11. sad quite sad


I appreciate that you feel so superior to me that you can question my amount of knowledge. I believe that I made a comparison which I saw to be contraversial and at the same time it brings up the question of what skills a point guard needs to succeed in the league. Again let me reitterate that I don't hate Jameer nor do i find him to be an inferior player I just don't find him to be a player that will end up on an ALL Star team, or be anything more than a marginal starter/good backup. 
Thanks for the sad comment.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>zzz123steve</b>!
> 
> 
> I appreciate that you feel so superior to me that you can question my amount of knowledge. I believe that I made a comparison which I saw to be contraversial and at the same time it brings up the question of what skills a point guard needs to succeed in the league. Again let me reitterate that I don't hate Jameer nor do i find him to be an inferior player I just don't find him to be a player that will end up on an ALL Star team, or be anything more than a marginal starter/good backup.
> Thanks for the sad comment.


Well in the process of you making a long drawn out post saying nothing, I think you forgot you were the one who started the thread and compared him to Mateen Cleaves when there are absolutely no similarities in there games, athletic ability or skill set. So if anything you opened yourself to the criticism with such a ridiculous comparison. Your welcome by the way


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## Monk (Apr 22, 2003)

Jameer Nelson and Mateen Cleaves have the following in common:


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## zzz123steve (Jun 25, 2004)

I appologize. I looked back through this thread and later realized that I broke it down more in another thread. Here what I thought I had posted here.





"I have no fears of this guy succeeding. If he does, then I wish him the best, and I'll be the first guy to get up and say I was wrong. I've seen him play against the "big guys" of college basketball, that is if you believe any still exist . Of course I see the A10 as competitive. I am totally lost on your analogy to you hating Lebron James. I don't hate Jameer because I haven't seen him play. I HAVE seen him play and I hope you got to see Lebron play as well, it was on ESPN you know. Why do I think Jameer isn't going to be the steal of the draft, an ALL-Star, or Lottery pick quality? He is undersized. He was super productive in college where many feel he may have topped-out. I have nothing against his competition, nor do I feel he is Mateen's clone, but I do feel they have that same Tourney hyped fan appeal that makes us blind to their real skills."

other thread


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## Pistolballer (May 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>soopahpit</b>!
> (15 reps of 185... half the powerforwards in the NBA can't do that).


i have trouble believing this
i can do that and im a 143(6'4) lbs weakling, i guarantee you every NBA PF can do that


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## CoolHandLuke (Jun 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> Jameer can play... he's built like a linebacker, he's a scorer, he's a scrappy, up-tempo player... he's going to do wery well in the NBA.


I'm going to jump in here and mention something COMPLETELY worthless to the discussion.

Jameer Nelson is absolutely NOT built like a linebacker. He's not even built like a small free safety. 15 reps at 185 is something that maybe most NBA power forwards can't do, but it's also something that most high school football players CAN do. 

Zach Thomas and Junior Seau, LBs for the Dolphins:
http://www.amarillonet.com/images/headlines/090403/1dallpro.jpg

Here's Michael Pittman, RB for the Tampa Bay Bucs:
http://www.widewordofsports.com/images-pittman.jpg

Terrell Owens, a receiver:
http://tacoweapon.com/blog/up/owens.jpg



Jameer Nelson is well-built for a basketball player. But he's not built like a linebacker. 15 reps at 185... is nothing at all when it's your job.


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Heck he could not get a golf ball in the basket if he tried.


A golf ball is so much harder to get in the hoop than a basketball :grinning:


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

If you are going to compare J. Nelson to any one then it has to be Damon Stoudamire except Nelson is a bigger, better defensive, no off court problems version. 

Cleeves? :laugh: Maybe if you are talking about Duhon or Vaughn.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>zzz123steve</b>!
> 
> 
> I appologize. I guess I didn't realize that Washington's pick was going to be that much lower than Orlando's.


Well next year the Washington pick is top 13 protected. The year after that it is top 3 protected. It is finally unprotected in 2007.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Monk</b>!
> Jameer Nelson and Mateen Cleaves have the following in common:


:laugh: :yes:


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## PoorPoorSonics (Mar 20, 2004)

Speaking of Cleaves he is on Seattles summer league team :no:


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## ChrisGags (Jul 8, 2004)

I was making the Cleaves comparison to a buddy all year, but only for the hype that they both received. We can all look back and see that Cleaves was a waste at #17 back in the day, but at the time all of the GM's were buying into the hype. Jameer couldn't get a nibble as a #1 pick when he tested last year and nothing about his game changed since then, so why did everyone jump to the conclusion that he dropped like a stone in the draft? the hype is the answer. Some are saying the comparison should be Cleaves and Duhon, but Duhon was not drafted in the first round and nothing much is expected of him (if he came out after his sophmore year then it would be a great comparison). 

Physically, there is no comparison between Cleaves and Nelson, but for everyone touting Jameers passing and play making ability, just note that he had 1.9 assists for every turnover, and that was in college, not against the better competition of the NBA. He can shoot though, but the defense will be better and for all the defense talk, Barley and West guarded the best guards on the opposing teams whenever possible as the SJU fans are well aware of. 

Hopefully he does not turn into Cleaves though, who just happens to be the best towel waving celebrator at the end of the bench in the history of the NBA. Such skills whipping the towel around and being off the bench to congratulate teammates first at a stoppage of play.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>zzz123steve</b>!
> Aren't the two 1 in the same? Are we giving TOO much credit to this guy because we've seen him play more than others and he's a feel good story? He is not worth Orlando's pick next year.


Denver is getting Washington's 1st Rounder, and it's Top 13 protected next season, Top 3 the season after that, and finally unprotected in 2007. The Magic gave up Brendan Haywood for that pick, who cares. Orlando basically did Brendan Haywood for Jameer Nelson, I'll take that any day.


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## soopahpit (Jun 1, 2004)

"Jameer couldn't get a nibble as a #1 pick when he tested last year and nothing about his game changed since then, so why did everyone jump to the conclusion that he dropped like a stone in the draft? "

He would have been drafted in the first last year. He was always a first round prospect, but any doubt that he would not have been picked in the first was due to the competition at point guard. There was very stiff competition at the PG spot in last year's draft, which has been called one of the best of all time. Lebron (he was drafted to play point), Ford, Wade, Ridnour, Gaines, Hinrich, Mo Williams, etc. clouded the field, and good prospects like mo williams and chris thomas, and jameer got shafted. Anyway, its pretty much established that Detroit would have picked Jameer at #25 last year instead of the euro they took a flyer on.

Also, his shooting has improved (which used to be a slight knock on his game. i think he went from a 36% 3pt shooter to around 40%.

He'll be a supersolid PG in the league for 10-12 years, you'll see.


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## ChrisGags (Jul 8, 2004)

Established that detroit would take him? If that were the case, Jameer would have stayed in the draft. Don't think he came back to SJU because of his love for the school. He even said that he would have left if he was guaranteed a first round slot, which no team would do. There were many point guards taken in last years draft, but nobody is calling it the greatest ever. Gaines barely played and they already lost faith after one year in Orlando (thus Nelson). Banks doesn't get off the bench with Celtics and they were desperate for anything at the point. I liked how Ford looked for the Bucks until the bad fall. Ridnour was hurt for awhile but showed some flashes, but his quickness defensively was seen as an issue before the last draft. Lebron was not drafted to be a point guard. It was said that he had the handle and the ability to play point if needed by Paul Silas, but he was always seen as either the shooting guard or the small forward but they would run the offense through him as the point forward type.

I like what Nelson did this year and all, but he is a shoot first point guard (with an above average shot) who makes many mistakes with the ball as his assists to turnover ratio shows. His stats for the last two years are nearly identical. Yes, many players were drafted as point guards last year, but many were drafted this year too. So what makes everyone think he should have been drafted higher? He is a nice player, but not NBA starter. Cleaves and Jaquce Vaugh from Kansas are who he reminds of coming into the league. He may find his nitch and I hope he does, but he is not a superstar in the making.


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## ChrisGags (Jul 8, 2004)

.


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

Jamar scores better then Mateen did coming out of college. I don't think Mateen ever really took over a college game like Jamar was doing for St Joes. Mateen just carried the teams leadership and everyone knew he wasn't going to be able to do anything more then that in the NBA. The only probelm was Joe Dumars had just take over the job with the Pistons and every MSU fan put pressure on the Pistons to take Cleaves because they thought he was going to be a poor mans Magic. Jamar isn't going to be awesome but he should be able to be a solid nba player.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChrisGags</b>!
> Established that detroit would take him? If that were the case, Jameer would have stayed in the draft. Don't think he came back to SJU because of his love for the school. He even said that he would have left if he was guaranteed a first round slot, which no team would do. There were many point guards taken in last years draft, but nobody is calling it the greatest ever. Gaines barely played and they already lost faith after one year in Orlando (thus Nelson). Banks doesn't get off the bench with Celtics and they were desperate for anything at the point. I liked how Ford looked for the Bucks until the bad fall. Ridnour was hurt for awhile but showed some flashes, but his quickness defensively was seen as an issue before the last draft. Lebron was not drafted to be a point guard. It was said that he had the handle and the ability to play point if needed by Paul Silas, but he was always seen as either the shooting guard or the small forward but they would run the offense through him as the point forward type.
> 
> I like what Nelson did this year and all, but he is a shoot first point guard (with an above average shot) who makes many mistakes with the ball as his assists to turnover ratio shows. His stats for the last two years are nearly identical. Yes, many players were drafted as point guards last year, but many were drafted this year too. So what makes everyone think he should have been drafted higher? He is a nice player, but not NBA starter. Cleaves and Jaquce Vaugh from Kansas are who he reminds of coming into the league. He may find his nitch and I hope he does, but he is not a superstar in the making.


Wow from someone who has Philadelphia in they're location your assesment of him is so wrong. The Mateen Cleaves comparison was bad but then to throw Jacque Vaughn into is even more ridiculous on top of that, being an A-10 watcher obviously because of Lasalle being your avatar. If you followed Jameer and St Joes. Him shooting as has been stated a million times already has been out of neccessity rather than him being shoot first. Jacque Vaughn would have been a good comparison his first couple years in school because he was Pass first the way he likes to play but with the lack of talent and bodies he had to shoot. So no hes not a Shoot first point guard.


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## soopahpit (Jun 1, 2004)

very odd indeed. first time I've ever seen an A10 fan that wasn't a Jameer fan, or at least begrudgingly been won over despite your teams' losses to him. Im not a St Joe's alum either, just a Jameer fan.

Of course he wasn't guaranteed a spot in the first or else he would not have come back. Guarantees are extremely hard to come by. But post facto, teams stated they would have taken him in the first had he stayed. He was the best PG in Chicago last year. I did not say the PGs were the best ever, just the draft as a whole, reducing the # of 1st round slots. Though if you really think about it, when has there ever been a strong PG draft? PGs are like the NFL Draft's receivers. A lot of em are expected to be good, not that many turn out that way and usually only after 2-3 year training period. The 2003 PG class may turn out to be one of the best overall.

Regarding A/TO. Collegiate stats are always to be taken with a grain of salt, anyone knows that. Systems, teams, and competition vary. And as a point of reference, Ben Gordon had a 1.6/1 A/TO and he was drafted as a PG. Its different when you're a PG with weapons like Felton, Paul, etc. to rack up a high assist turnover ratio. When you are the primary scorer as well as the ball distributor, you're going to have less assists and more turnovers than on a different team. St Joe's system of passing also dragged down his number of assists. 

No NBA personnel needed proof he could handle the ball and be an effective PG than they already had before this past season. In Chicago he proved it.
10.3 ppg, 6.3 apg, 54.5 FG%, 87.5 FT% in the games.
He had about 3-4 turnovers...... total.... for the whole camp.


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## ChrisGags (Jul 8, 2004)

Both of my roommates were SJU grads so I watched many games and got to hear how great Jameer was every day, so sometimes you go the other way. I have admitted in other posts that he had a nice career, but this thread had many people stating that Jameer would be this or that in the NBA and I was just making my feelings on his game known.

As for his stats in Chicago, I'm sure you also realize that that means less than real stats since the players in Chicago are trying to make a name for themselves and all the best players do not play (it would be like an NBA starter playing in the NBDL next year- level of talent difference which doesn't mean some players have the higher skill from the lower level). The comparison to Gordon actually brings up one of the things I hate about the draft which is college shooting guards being drafted as point guards, although I would think that Gordon will be a shooting guard with Kirk Heinrick starting at the point in Chicago. What makes teams think a kid that hasn't played the point can suddenly learn the position and not be a Steve Francis or Gilbert Arenas (shoot first and then maybe pass). Jameer's stats should have increased in assists since the team was guard oriented and lived on the three point shot with most guys being catch and shoot types (other than Delonte). 

I compare Jameer to Vaughn and Cleaves because of the hype that got them all drafted higher than they should have been, not in style of play. Hopefully that makes it clear so people stop thinking of the wrong comparison. I think his career in the pros will be as forgotten as theirs.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChrisGags</b>!
> Both of my roommates were SJU grads so I watched many games and got to hear how great Jameer was every day, so sometimes you go the other way. I have admitted in other posts that he had a nice career, but this thread had many people stating that Jameer would be this or that in the NBA and I was just making my feelings on his game known.
> 
> As for his stats in Chicago, I'm sure you also realize that that means less than real stats since the players in Chicago are trying to make a name for themselves and all the best players do not play (it would be like an NBA starter playing in the NBDL next year- level of talent difference which doesn't mean some players have the higher skill from the lower level). The comparison to Gordon actually brings up one of the things I hate about the draft which is college shooting guards being drafted as point guards, although I would think that Gordon will be a shooting guard with Kirk Heinrick starting at the point in Chicago. What makes teams think a kid that hasn't played the point can suddenly learn the position and not be a Steve Francis or Gilbert Arenas (shoot first and then maybe pass). * Jameer's stats should have increased in assists since the team was guard oriented and lived on the three point shot with most guys being catch and shoot types (other than Delonte). *
> ...


Umm what i have bolded would actually decrease his assists being that in St Josephs offense the ball is swung around the perimeter until someone had an open shot so if anything his assists would be down if hes driving kicking it out and the ball is swung again. Also you still havent given any solid facts to say his career will be forgotten as theirs when in basically every aspect of his game and theirs he was better in.


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## zzz123steve (Jun 25, 2004)

You're missing the point. The point is these guys all share the "feel-good" College Basketball media-hyped tourney leader, little man who could story and aura that makes draft analysts, fans, and teams overvalue a player. 
The point is be careful of overvaluing a guy because of this aura.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>zzz123steve</b>!
> You're missing the point. The point is these guys all share the "feel-good" College Basketball media-hyped tourney leader, little man who could story and aura that makes draft analysts, fans, and teams overvalue a player.
> The point is be careful of overvaluing a guy because of this aura.


who cares about all that nonsense. is he a baller yes. did he put up great stats against his competition and lead them to a perfect regular season. Yes so sorry I cant see how he would be being OVERVALUED


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