# To those who insisted that Wayne Simien was 6'6" or 6'7"...



## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

...you know who you are. 



> Apparently he is measuring out at at least a legit 6-9, and according to one team even taller than that. We've had a hard time believing it ourselves, but this is coming from a number of reliable places so apparently there must be something to it.


Like I've been saying for years now...


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## BigMac (Jan 14, 2005)

does that move him into a top 15 pick top 10?


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## bruno34115 (Apr 14, 2003)

He's injury prone and it's unfortunite because he has some talent. With that being said I wouldn't pick him due to fear of injury.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Simien is still a 20-27 pick unless he really impresses at Chicago or workouts.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I'm still not impressed by what he's supposedly measured at. He's gotten injured every year in college. How's he going to be able to survive the NBA grind? He won't be able to. Great person, good player, but for some reason his body is brittle.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

i think simien will make a great player, im hoping he dfrops to the Heat because of teams passing on him because of his injuries. Nice Udonis Haslem insurance.


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## Pistolballer (May 9, 2003)

you never know how he'll turn out in the NBA, maybe he won't ever be seriously injured again.

Look at Danny Manning, didn't get hurt in college (not seriously) then tore his ACL 83 times in the NBA


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

In other PF related news, Chris Taft is getting abused in workouts and Ike Diogu has the wingspan of a 747.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

6'6 or 6'10, this guy is going to have a string of injuries so bad that _Curtis Borchardt_ is going to say, "Damn, he's made of glass!"

Diogu, now that's how you raise your stock.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Put me on the record as saying that Simien's past and projected injuries, like his supposed lack of height, are or have been greatly exaggerated.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Rawse said:


> this guy is going to have a string of injuries so bad that _Curtis Borchardt_ is going to say, "Damn, he's made of glass!"


That got me laughing, nice one. Simien just isn't that good even if he never had any injuries. He's a late first rounder, MAYBE mid if he had an impecable history, but he'll probably go late first or early second. Or Jerry West could trade up to #10 and take him because he's at least a better prospect than Dahante Jones.


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## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

Here's a question for College ball/Kansas followers and draftnics...

Player A is a 6'9" PF. He put up 18.5 ppg and 10.0 rpg on .554% shooting his senior year. He was drafted in the late lotto #12 overall.

Wayne Simien is also a 6'9" PF. He put up 20.3 ppg and 11.0 rpg on .552% shooting his senior year. He's projected in the 25-30 range. 


They seem very similar to me, so why the discrepancy in draft slot ? Is it the injuries, or does Simien's game just not project to the NBA game ?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I've never liked the cut of Simien's jib. He just feels like a career journeyman.


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## thekid (Apr 3, 2003)

Are those Collison's numbers? I can come up with he didn't have injury problems in college..


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Yeah, I thought those were Collison's too. Also remember that Collison wasn't really expected to go that high; all it takes is one team to fall in love with you.


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## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

Yep, it's Collison. And if I recall correctly, Nick had some shoulder problems in college too (didn't he ?). 

The only difference I can think of, is that Nick had a long run in the Tourney and had a couple of monster games in the final four. While Simien got knocked out by Bucknell. So scouts had more games to drool over with Collison. 

I think some team in the 20's is probably going to get a steal in Simien, provided he can stay somewhat healthy.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

If Simien approaches what Collison is going to be in the NBA he's worthy of a lottery pick. Nick is the real deal. But Nick is huge and can move. I don't just mean height, I mean width, thickness, and oaken strength. And he's an incredibly smart basketball player.


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## PHXSPORTS4LIFE (May 8, 2003)

i think simien, with the right team, can be a good player. he'd be an excellent sub for amare/marion on the suns as his athleticism would be fully utilized.


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## mysterio (May 20, 2003)

Wayne Sommers


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

6'6 or 6'9, he's still a banger that doesn't block shots.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Scinos said:


> Here's a question for College ball/Kansas followers and draftnics...
> 
> Player A is a 6'9" PF. He put up 18.5 ppg and 10.0 rpg on .554% shooting his senior year. He was drafted in the late lotto #12 overall.
> 
> ...


Very nice question. There's a number of reasons Collison is considered the better prospect IMO.

1. Collison's a legit 6'10" (verdict's still out on Simien, but I say he's probably 6'9").

2. Simien has good fundamentals, footwork and Bball IQ; Collison has great fundamentals, footwork and Bball IQ.

3. Collison is more versatile at the four spot.

4. Collison has a better track record in terms of injuries.

5. Collison had played on two Olympic teams with other pro players by the time he was drafted.

When it's all said and done, I see Simien as Maurice Taylor Part II, which isn't a bad thing on the right team at the right price.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> We've been dogging Arizona State's Ike Diogu and Kansas' Wayne Simien for years because of numerous NBA scouting reports that had them both listed at 6-foot-7 in shoes. NBA scouts hold firm to a threshold that says a player must to be a minimum of 6-foot-8 in shoes to play the power forward position (Charles Barkley notwithstanding). Neither Diogu nor Simien has the perimeter skills to make the transformation to the three, so they've picked up the derogatory "biggie smalls" designation.
> 
> Ooops. Our bad. Both players were in Denver May 31 for a workout and a startling truth was uncovered: Both guys are taller than we thought they were.
> 
> According to a source inside the Nuggets, Simien measured 6-8 without shoes. NBA teams add another 1¼ inches for shoes, bringing his height up to 6-9¼.


ESPN Insider


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## Scinos (Jun 10, 2003)

VincentVega said:


> Very nice question. There's a number of reasons Collison is considered the better prospect IMO.
> 
> 1. Collison's a legit 6'10" (verdict's still out on Simien, but I say he's probably 6'9").
> 
> ...


Ok, thanks. Collison has been impressive for the Sonics, in particular towards the end of the season. He was probably our second/third best player in the playoffs. The guy is just a flat out winner. People will think of Ray's 45 in game 4, but Supes fans know Nick turned the tide in that game, by drawing 3 charges in the 4th quarter. I also thought we were done in game 6 against the Spurs when Nick picked up 3 quick fouls, sure enough we lost.  

So naturally, with Simien projected in the Sonics range and appearing similar (at least to me, I don't watch alot of college ball)...there's the thought of getting a second helping. But, Maurice Taylor v2.0 ? :uhoh: ...i'll pass.


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## vadimivich (Mar 29, 2004)

Simien just isn't that athletic. Which is strange, because he has the body that makes you think he's a terrific athlete. I actually lived near him this year in Lawrence, and saw him a lot in person - he's certainly an impressive physique.

On the court though, he's just not fast/quick/explosive ... he's so smooth and skilled though, and has a lethal jump hook that he still dominated every minute he was on the floor. If he can stay healthy, someone is going to get a very solid pick in the 25 range. Maurice Taylor 2.0 is a terrific comparision, imo.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Anyone remember the Karl Malone comparisons from two years ago?

:rofl:


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Premier said:


> Anyone remember the Karl Malone comparisons from two years ago?
> 
> :rofl:


No.


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

Premier said:


> Anyone remember the Karl Malone comparisons from two years ago?
> 
> :rofl:


Yeah


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## vadimivich (Mar 29, 2004)

What's wrong with that comparison? He really is kind of a poor man's Malone, unless someone is going to come along here and claim that Malone was any sort of an athlete for the last 10 years of his career (hell, he couldn't even dunk really at the end and still put up 18 a night). He was very skilled, very polished, very smart - and he had nasty streak a mile wide, and that might be the difference between the two. Simien is far too good of a human being to be Karl Malone.

I think he'll have a good long career, and never be a star (or maybe even a starter). He certainly won't be a bust, unless he just truly can never be healthy.


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## Ming_7_6 (May 6, 2005)

He's 6'9 3/4" with shoes on per his workout reports.


He's basically the same exact height 1/4" less and same exact weight 1 pound less than Karl malone


how is this undersized for a PF?


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Ming_7_6 said:


> He's 6'9 3/4" with shoes on per his workout reports.
> 
> 
> He's basically the same exact height 1/4" less and same exact weight 1 pound less than Karl malone
> ...


Hype or anti-hype (however one phrases it) propagates myths. The same way Deron Williams isn't athletic.


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## Real Deal (Feb 10, 2005)

vadimivich said:


> Simien just isn't that athletic. Which is strange, because he has the body that makes you think he's a terrific athlete. I actually lived near him this year in Lawrence, and saw him a lot in person - he's certainly an impressive physique.
> 
> On the court though, he's just not fast/quick/explosive ... he's so smooth and skilled though, and has a lethal jump hook that he still dominated every minute he was on the floor. If he can stay healthy, someone is going to get a very solid pick in the 25 range. Maurice Taylor 2.0 is a terrific comparision, imo.


You live in Lawrence?! That's great, man. I personally know Collison and Hinrich when I went and visited my girl (she moved up there). I'm in SE Kansas, but I was up there a couple times and I partied with Nick and Kirk, and being a die-hard KU fan, it was the best thing ever, but then they left for the pros and I haven't seen them since (and probably never will again lol).

By the way, sticking to the topic, Wayne Simien will start in 3 years. Write it down. And...he is 6'8" for those who wanna know the truth.  

Also, Collison had double shoulder surgery his rookie season, so IMO he would be alot better this year if it wasn't for that. When you think of Simien's injuries, look back at what concerns were thrown at whoever drafted Emeka Okafor last year.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Simien doesn't compare to Okafor. I think that's a poor comparison. Also, although it wasn't talked about a lot, Okafor did have some injury concerns that do have the Bobcat people a tad worried with his back. Hopefully, it's not long term, but you never know. 

The NBA grind.


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## Real Deal (Feb 10, 2005)

HKF said:


> Simien doesn't compare to Okafor. I think that's a poor comparison. Also, although it wasn't talked about a lot, Okafor did have some injury concerns that do have the Bobcat people a tad worried with his back. Hopefully, it's not long term, but you never know.
> 
> The NBA grind.


Oh, I wasn't comparing the two.  I was just talking about the injury situation, and how each had raised questions about their durability.


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## Ming_7_6 (May 6, 2005)

He isn't 6-8, he's 6-9, 6-10 two teams measured him at.


Maurice Taylor 2.0?


Is that a sick joke?

That's like the "Amare is the next Hakeem or Wilt" talks.


Simien has the potential, so he COULD, not saying he will, but he could be a superior offensive/skilled version of Charles Oakley.

He's much more an Oakley than he is a Mo Taylor.


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

people never believe anybody's height
they always think they're 2 inches shorter

well in this case wayne is not


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

If Wayne Simien is in the 6'9 to 6'10 range, he's got to get some lotto consideration. His post game is amazing, and the numbers really don't give an accurate picture of how much he dominated this past season. The KU guards did a piss-poor job of getting him the ball, and he was still a 20/10 guy. 

Here is a guy with adequate NBA height, he's built like a tank, and has the most polished offensive game of any big man in the draft. I don't want to get too excited, but you guys tell me where a player like this should go...


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## Real Deal (Feb 10, 2005)

Jonathan Watters said:


> but you guys tell me where a player like this should go...


I honestly believe that if the Lakers didn't need a PG, that Simien would be the best pick at 10. If you were to take away the injuries, then he'd be projected around 10-15. Add on the fact that the Jayhawks were embarassed this season in March, and you've got Simien in the mid-20's or so...which, to me, is an inaccurate spot in relation to his abilities.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Check the mock, my friend...

http://www.draftcity.com/mock.php?y=2005


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## Real Deal (Feb 10, 2005)

Jonathan Watters said:


> Check the mock, my friend...
> 
> http://www.draftcity.com/mock.php?y=2005


Yep.  I don't think Minny will pick him up though, but I knew he'd come down in due time. I'll just need to hear a few more positives about him before changing my own mock. 

If I were the GM with a pick in the teens, I'd bite on Simien. I've been saying this since all the talk about the draft started up.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Ming_7_6 said:


> He isn't 6-8, he's 6-9, 6-10 two teams measured him at.
> 
> 
> Maurice Taylor 2.0?
> ...


Both are 6'9", 260-ish. Both are good scorers who can step out to 20' and hit the jumper or nail the baby hook inside. Both are below average defenders with limited lateral movement. Both rarely block shots.

Simien overwhelmingly had the superior collegiate career.


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## Giddensfor3 (Sep 14, 2004)

But Taylor is soft and allergic to rebounding, two things you can't say about Simien. I think Simien is more like a less explosive Carlos Boozer.


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## Ming_7_6 (May 6, 2005)

This is stupid, Simien is a beast, not a one court beast like Amare either.


I swear this guy is probably the best player in the whole draft, if he stays healthy......


how can someone this good be thought of so lowly?

If Houston gets Simien with the 24 or moves up to get him, the whole NBA will be screwed.

Just watch this guy is going to make all the doubters look BAD.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

VincentVega said:


> Both are 6'9", 260-ish. Both are good scorers who can step out to 20' and hit the jumper or nail the baby hook inside. Both are below average defenders with limited lateral movement. Both rarely block shots.
> 
> Simien overwhelmingly had the superior collegiate career.


Huh? Taylor shies away from contact, and is a nonfactor on the glass. He's essentially a jumpshooter, although he is quite good at this. Simien was born for play on the low blocks, with an unlimited array of post moves. He relishes contact, and is a good rebounder. I would say Taylor has him beat in the athleticism department, even if it's only slightly. You are right about both of them being defensive question marks, but given Simien's willingness to play inside, he's got to have the advantage there. 

They are both injury prone...


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Jonathan Watters said:


> Huh? Taylor shies away from contact, and is a nonfactor on the glass. He's essentially a jumpshooter, although he is quite good at this. Simien was born for play on the low blocks, with an unlimited array of post moves. He relishes contact, and is a good rebounder. I would say Taylor has him beat in the athleticism department, even if it's only slightly. You are right about both of them being defensive question marks, but given Simien's willingness to play inside, he's got to have the advantage there.
> 
> They are both injury prone...


True. I don't know why I'm continually drawn to Mo Taylor as a comparison. Maybe when I watched him most (at Michigan), he wasn't such a ***** inside, and I haven't watched him nearly enough in the league.

I wouldn't be surprised if Simien's vertical leap is better than people expect. He's not a quick jumper, but when he gets adequate preparation he has no problems getting up. He finished some alley-oops at Kansas (some with one hand) that Taylor could only dream of getting a hand on.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Ming_7_6 said:


> He's basically the same exact height 1/4" less and same exact weight 1 pound less than Karl malone
> 
> 
> how is this undersized for a PF?


It's stupid on your part and unfair to Simien to draft him expecting Karl Malone, the leading scorer in the history of the NBA.

This really isn't a knock on Simien, but I'd just rather have Diogu. I mean, as much of a beast as you all claim Wayne to be, Diogu is just incredible. His opponents don't even have a chance at getting a rebound, and he just measured his wingspan at 7 freakin 4.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

karl malone is the 2nd leading scorer in league history, kareem is tops


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Nimreitz said:


> It's stupid on your part and unfair to Simien to draft him expecting Karl Malone, the leading scorer in the history of the NBA.
> 
> This really isn't a knock on Simien, but I'd just rather have Diogu. I mean, as much of a beast as you all claim Wayne to be, Diogu is just incredible. His opponents don't even have a chance at getting a rebound, and he just measured his wingspan at 7 freakin 4.


Simien averaged more boards in fewer minutes on a more talented team in a better conference than did Diogu. That said, Diogu's wingspan is friggin' nuts.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

And I'd still rather have Ike. That guy's athleticism is just nuts. He can probably dunk from the freethrow line standing on the ground with that wingspan! Plus he's just incredibly strong and explosive and has a decent offensive game. At the very least he's Reggie Evans.


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## Giddensfor3 (Sep 14, 2004)

Since when was Diogu an explosive athlete? I haven't seem much from him that indicates he is more than an average athlete at the NBA level. And Reggie Evans is very unathletic, that guy has a horrible vertical leap.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Big 12 is not much better than Pac-10, IMO. Better, but not way better.

I was worried that Ike racked up big numbers against some of the cripples in the Pac-10. In fact, two of his very best games came against Washington in late February and in March.

31 pts 15 rebs; & 21 pts 13 rebs 5 blocks 2 stl!

Ike is the real deal, he's a better prospect than Simien. Simien is still a 1st rounder though.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Somehow this post ended up in the wrong thread...


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## Ming_7_6 (May 6, 2005)

T-Mac's height/wingspan when fully grown

6-9 1/2 with shoes 7-4 wingspan

Elton Brand's height when fully grown

6-8 1/2 with shoes 7-6 wingspan


Diogu's wingspan is VERY IMPRESSIVE


BUT it is NOT nearly as freakish nor unheard of as people are making it out to be.


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## Ming_7_6 (May 6, 2005)

Ming_7_6 said:


> T-Mac's height/wingspan when fully grown
> 
> 6-9 1/2 with shoes 7-4 wingspan
> 
> ...



Honestly if the Rockets got either Ike or Simien I would be THRILLED, believe me. Two most UNDERrated players in the draft.


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