# what the hell is upside?



## patticus (Jan 4, 2004)

does this mean you're an athletic freak but have zero polish whatsoever?

people seem to think the above means you have the potential to become the next mj, iverson, kevin garnett, or bill russell.

but so many of you guys say bench scrubs like marcus haislip, john salmons etc have upside..

well... that generally means they haven't gotten it done (they just might in the FUTURE), doesn't it?


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## LB26matrixns (May 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>patticus</b>!
> does this mean you're an athletic freak but have zero polish whatsoever?
> 
> people seem to think the above means you have the potential to become the next mj, iverson, kevin garnett, or bill russell.
> ...


It's pretty easy lol.......

If you are travelling a straight line on a graph you can go up or down.....sort of like stock earnings charts. When a player's ceiling is a lot higher than what he is now, and his floor isn't a whole lot lower....he has a lot of UPSIDE. He has a lot of room to go up before he hits the peak of what a player with his physical skills can be.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

It's just how much better a player can get... people get it wrong sometimes but that doesn't mean it's not real.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

General concept of "upside": It's why "my" player is more valuable than "your" player, despite "my" player putting up much less production.

Unless we're talking about LeBron James. Then it's totally legit.


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## Derrex (Jul 21, 2002)

Generally, 5-6 inches above the average for the standard position they play. For example, Shaun Livingston and Pavel Podkolzine. Must be really young from either highschool or europe. Preferably very athletic or strong. Must be raw and excel in the physical aspects and less in the mental aspects. Most importantly, must be completely unknown.

Oh yeah, college players and nonathletic hard workers have no upside.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

I thought upside was (can't describe so i'll use examples)

Jason Kidds upside is Passing, his downside is his jumpshoot

Dirk Nowitzkis upside is scoring, his downside is his defense

Shaquille O'Neals upside is height, his downside is injury proneness

Ben Wallaces upside is defense, his downside is scoring

etc etc


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> I thought upside was (can't describe so i'll use examples)
> 
> Jason Kidds upside is Passing, his downside is his jumpshoot
> ...



That's one use of the word, but not the one he's talking about I don't think. To me, upside is simply potential. Potential basically means you're athletic, have good size and need to polish your skills to take your game to the next level.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

basketball tools (athleticism, court vision, height, timing) without honed basketball skills (court sense (broad term here), shotmaking ability, defensive knowledge).

it's certainly not a meaningless term. all-else-equal, you take a guy with greater upside. gm's primary job is to determine a players upside (along with quantifying a players current basketball ability).


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> basketball tools (athleticism, court vision, height, timing) without honed basketball skills (court sense (broad term here), shotmaking ability, defensive knowledge).
> 
> it's certainly not a meaningless term. all-else-equal, you take a guy with greater upside. gm's primary job is to determine a players upside (along with quantifying a players current basketball ability).


Upside certainly isn't a meaningless term at all.

When comparing young players who are marginal players, upside is very important to GMs and coaches. Marginal players who have polished skills, but are not great athletes and/or don't have great size are not viewed as highly as a great athlete with good size for his position who can't shoot, and doesn't have very polished skills. The reason behind this is simple; size and athleticism can not be taught, nor improved. Shooting, dribbling and all other basketball skills can be improved, especially with good coaching.


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## #1BucksFan (Apr 14, 2003)

The perfect player to examine when trying to define upside is Jermaine O'Neal. He was just a HS kid who was an athletic freak in Portland. On the Pacers, he devoloped into a great all around player.

The problem is there are too many people who have dropped low or off the board because of upside players. Look at Joel Prysbilla. The 9th player taken in 2000, and he can barely play. All he can do is block shots and get 6 fouls. Mike Redd was a solid player in college, and he dropped to 43. He worked on his shot, and is now a premier player in the NBA. Upside is purely athletic and measurements.


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## sweet_constipation (Jul 3, 2004)

I don't know where it came from, but I'm guessing either agents, managers, or someone that was trying to _hustle_ a player onto a team.

Translation: *BS*

or

Something analysts love to use when they either don't know all too much about a player, or just can't think of something to say.
If anyone is a Seinfeld fan, it's no different that just "yaddaa-yadda-yaddding" over something.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>sweet_constipation</b>!
> I don't know where it came from, but I'm guessing either agents, managers, or someone that was trying to _hustle_ a player onto a team.
> 
> Translation: *BS*
> ...


Exactly. 100% correct.

Because nobody with potential, ever, in the entire history of the game, has ever come close to fulfilling it. 

Thank you for your astute insight. Players can never get better, it's always WYSIWYG.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>patticus</b>!
> but so many of you guys say bench scrubs like marcus haislip, john salmons etc have upside..


John Salmons has shown flashes, and I'm not a big advocate of his, what he lacks is the mental toughness needed to become a player. He's not a great athlete, he's a solid one, who does have talent, just doesn't do it consistently enough because of wavering confidence.

Upside/potential do exist, and if teams were to look past what they would get five years from now compared to now, in anything, teams would be making a huge mistake. I guess looking over potential, would always give us more ammo to say "WHAT ARE THEY THINKING, HOW DID THEY PICK PLAYER A INSTEAD OF PLAYER B."

And since that's what we're here for mostly, to second guess, maybe it's a bad thing? :whoknows:


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

It usually means they have a million-dollar body, regardless of a ten-cent head.

"He's got upside. Now if he can just learn what basketball is from the ground up..." lol

And in recent years it's most often used with players that are seen less and don't have their weaknesses crituiqued and exposed.

Okay, sometimes it is only good. Like Minstrel said, Lebron has legandary upside. At 19 in the NBA, you pretty much have to do some relying on your innate gifts, and Lebron was showing up veteran TEAMS. 41-13? Amazing. John Stockton just couldn't do that, especially at 19. So if you add some of Stockton's level of fundamental excellence and intelligence, look out.

Not to say that players with talent but no brains can't have big games, i.e. Quintin Dailey.


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## AZwildcats4 (Feb 9, 2004)

i define upside as how good a player could become at his maximum skill level.


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## sweet_constipation (Jul 3, 2004)

LOL, my sarcasm detector is off the charts........thanks Matt.
 


It might of meant something years back, but with so many people entering the league at such an early age, it means jack crap IMO.
Not everyone, but damn near 90% of the people entering the league have 'upside'.

I never said people won't ever reach their potential, or have a high ceiling that they aren't capable of reaching, it's just that the word is abused now to the point where it almost has no worth.


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