# All-Time Greatest Enforcers/Hatchet Men



## 3243

Reading the thread in the regular NBA forum about who today's most intimidating players are got me to thinking about the fact that there really aren't that many such players in today's NBA. Go back twenty years, on the other hand, and there were a ton of them: Karl Malone, Danny Ainge, Charles Barkley, Charles Oakley, pre-Muslim Hakeem Olajuwon, Kevin Willis, the "Bad Boys"-era Detroit Pistons. And earlier decades of the NBA and ABA had even more enforcers and hatchet men.

So who would you pick for your all-time list of enforcers and hatchet men?

Here's mine:

Bill Laimbeer
Rick Mahorn
Kermit Washington
Maurice Lucas
Xavier McDaniel
Danny Ainge
John Starks
Charles Oakley
John Brisker
Isiah Thomas
Calvin Murphy
Dennis Awtrey
Warren Jabali
Wayne "Tree" Rollins
Anthony Mason
Kevin Willis
Ricky Sobers
Wendell Ladner


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## jericho

I might throw Clyde Lovellette on the list...a bully who liked to get in people's heads.


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## 77AJ

Danny Foreston and Ron Artest would of loved to play in the NBA 20 years ago. 

Two names that should go on the list are probably Alonzo Mourning one of the great interior defenders, and a bit crazy. Another name I'll throw out from the mid to late 80s who's a little more obscure but was a tough guy for sure would be Ken Bannister, who had the nick name The Animal. In the 80s almost every team had an enforcer/tough guy. No blood no foul was the preaching back then.


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## Najee

I'm surprised no one named Charles Barkley.

Dennis Rodman is practically a shoo-in for this list. The Worm was notorious for playing head games with other players and definitely was not above giving a cheap shot.

Another irritant I will name is Bill Hanzlik. A defensive specialist, Hanzlik was notorious for grabbing, pushing and getting in people's face during his 10-year career.

I also will nominate the late Norm van Lier. Another gritty player, it was only a few years ago that as an announcer he threatened to go after one of the Miami Heat's players (I believe it was James Posey). I also would consider his former backcourt mate, Jerry Sloan.


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## kflo

define hatchet man? because i know ainge wasn't an enforcer. neither was starks.

i'd put moses, lonnie shelton, artis, chuck person, ml carr, michael cage, jeff ruland, antoine carr


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## Najee

For guards, I imagine 3243's logic is players who are all-around irritants, trash-talkers and love to stir the pot. Most guards are going to give up size to bully people around, but Danny Ainge and John Starks typically were in the middle of something when they played.

I would think the Detroit era Ben Wallace would receive consideration. Jeff Ruland is nearly mandatory. For guards, you almost have to name "Mad Max" Vernon Maxwell.


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## Najee

I have the right to change my team, but my all-time favorite enforcers team is: Charles Barkley, Bill Laimbeer, Maurice Lucas, Xavier McDaniel, Rick Mahorn, Karl Malone, Vernon Maxwell, Charles Oakley, Dennis Rodman, Jeff Ruland, Jerry Sloan and Norm Van Lier.


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## BadBaronRudigor

No love for Stan Van Gundy? Got to respect a coach who will go out and grab onto a guy a foot and a half taller than you's leg like an angry chihauhau. 

Serious hatchet man coach . . . Cliff Hagan when he coached Dallas in the early ABA used to lead team prayers in the locker room then get annoyed enough at his players to put himself into the game where he inevitably hit or elbowed someone leading to a fight . . . to the point where his owner hid his basketball shorts one day so he wouldn't get thrown out of another game. (from Terry Pluto's book, Loose Balls)


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## Najee

BadBaronRudigor said:


> No love for Stan Van Gundy? Got to respect a coach who will go out and grab onto a guy a foot and a half taller than you's leg like an angry chihauhau.


I take it you meant _Jeff_ Van Gundy, Baron.

As for an enforcer coach, I'll take Al Attles. Any coach whose nickname was "The Destroyer" deserves mention. Attles got his nickname when as a player he, Tom Gola and Dolph Schayes all collided while chasing a loose ball. Attles corralled the ball and Schayes ended up with a broken jaw, thanks to Attles. In another incident, the 6-foot-1 Attles once picked up 6-9 Bob Ferry during a fight, tossed him through the air and jumped on him.


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## 3243

Najee said:


> As for an enforcer coach, I'll take Al Attles. Any coach whose nickname was "The Destroyer" deserves mention. Attles got his nickname when as a player he, Tom Gola and Dolph Schayes all collided while chasing a loose ball. Attles corralled the ball and Schayes ended up with a broken jaw, thanks to Attles. In another incident, the 6-foot-1 Attles once picked up 6-9 Bob Ferry during a fight, tossed him through the air and jumped on him.


Oh yeah, Attles could coach this team. I have the video clip of him flying off the bench after Washington's Mike Riordan after Riordan fouled Rick Barry in the 1975 NBA Finals.


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## Prolific Scorer

I have to nominate Corliss Williamson and J.R. Reid. 

Neither one was anything special, but they both gave you toughness.

Kenyon Martin I wouldn't consider either one, but he's another guy who will get in someone's face or isn't afraid to give someone a hard foul. Plus we all know how he can finish around the basket.


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## 3243

BadBaronRudigor said:


> Serious hatchet man coach . . . Cliff Hagan when he coached Dallas in the early ABA used to lead team prayers in the locker room then get annoyed enough at his players to put himself into the game where he inevitably hit or elbowed someone leading to a fight . . . to the point where his owner hid his basketball shorts one day so he wouldn't get thrown out of another game. (from Terry Pluto's book, Loose Balls)



In another anecdote from that book, another Dallas Chapparals (now San Antonio Spurs) coach, Tom Nissalke, once offered $500 to any of his players who could take out the Pittsburgh Condors' John Brisker, who was the ABA's most notorious fighter/troublemaker. Before that night's game, Len Chappell asked Nissalke if he could start. During the opening tip-off, while the two centers jumped for the ball and everybody else was looking up at the ball, Chappell coldcocked Brisker and knocked him school-out. Nobody saw it and the game went on, Brisker lying out-cold on the court. From all accounts, Brisker never messed with the Dallas Chapparals again.


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## 3243

Najee said:


> For guards, I imagine 3243's logic is players who are all-around irritants, trash-talkers and love to stir the pot. Most guards are going to give up size to bully people around, but Danny Ainge and John Starks typically were in the middle of something when they played.


Yep, those are hatchet men--players who will deliberately try to remove an opposing player (preferably its star) from the game by either provoking him into a fight and getting him ejected, or by intentionally injuring him.

Enforcers protect their star players from the other teams' hatchet men.

And there have been some guards who were more than happy to scrap--Ainge and Starks most certainly, Isiah Thomas would mess with somebody on the other team, and I remember Ricky Sobers, Darrell Walker, and Sedale Threatt as being fairly pugilistic (YouTube has a 1986 Sixers-Celtics game where Threatt blasted Ainge with a right cross and knocked him out briefly after a shoving match). Also the '70s Bulls' backcourt of Jerry Sloan and the late Norm van Lier were pretty tough.

But the all-time king of fighting guards was Calvin Murphy. During his Hall of Fame career with the Houston Rockets, the 5'8" Murphy was in something like 13 or 14 major fights, and he won them all. Even 7-footers did not want to mess with Murphy.


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## 3243

Oh yeah! Speaking of guards, I also must mention Warren Jabali (who also played forward during his ABA career). During a 1969-70 game, Jabali, then a member of the Oakland Oaks (who were owned by singer and minister Pat Boone), got into a scuffle with an opposing player, Jim Jarvis. Jabali slugged Jarvis, knocking him to the floor, then stomped Jarvis' head. Boone remembers being in shock.


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## 3243

From the old days, Clyde Lovelette did a rare thing--he actually made Wilt Chamberlain mad enough to fight him. And from what I've heard and read about Wilt, that was NOT a good thing to do. 

According to one anecdote I've heard, after the Lakers blew out the Atlanta Hawks in a playoff game, the Hawks' coach publicly suggested that Elgin Baylor and Jerry West might want to avoid going to the basket in the teams' next game, or they might not be healthy enough to finish that game. Wilt heard it and told reporters that if West or Baylor were so much as touched, Wilt would take out the Hawks' entire roster. In fact, early in the next game, Wilt literally lifted one of the Hawks into the air, holding him up for a few seconds before putting him back down. Needless to say, the message was sent, and no Lakers suffered any rough treatment that night.

Also from the old school: Dave Cowens, "Jungle" Jim Loscutoff, Phil Jackson during his playing days was known as a dirty player, and we cannot forget Willis Reed, who one night in 1966 took on the entire Laker bench and won. I understand he broke at least two Laker noses.


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## 77AJ

Old school NBA is the best school.


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## 3243

23AJ said:


> Old school NBA is the best school.


I definitely agree.


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## The Big Youngistotle

BadBaronRudigor said:


> No love for Stan Van Gundy? Got to respect a coach who will go out and grab onto a guy a foot and a half taller than you's leg like an angry chihauhau.
> 
> That was actually Jeff Van Gundy.
> 
> I'm shocked that no one has once mentioned any of the Celtics through the 80's. I think it's overlooked how physical Kevin McHale and Larry Bird were in their playing days cause they were so good. Watch their championship series with the Lakers where Kevin McHale just absolutely clotheslines Kurt Rambis. That type of play defined the Celtics and their championships through the 80's.


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## BadBaronRudigor

3243 said:


> In another anecdote from that book, another Dallas Chapparals (now San Antonio Spurs) coach, Tom Nissalke, once offered $500 to any of his players who could take out the Pittsburgh Condors' John Brisker, who was the ABA's most notorious fighter/troublemaker. Before that night's game, Len Chappell asked Nissalke if he could start. During the opening tip-off, while the two centers jumped for the ball and everybody else was looking up at the ball, Chappell coldcocked Brisker and knocked him school-out. Nobody saw it and the game went on, Brisker lying out-cold on the court. From all accounts, Brisker never messed with the Dallas Chapparals again.


Funny thing is that when Chappell played for the Royals, he had a rep as soft. He was more a jump shooter than a low post banger.


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## 3243

Funny how an extra $500 check made Chappell so tough.:laugh: 

The Big Youngistotle, we must include the '80s Celtics (besides Ainge). I despised McHale for his Dick "Night Train" Lane impression on Kurt Rambis in the '84 Finals, Bird was a scrapper, and Robert Parish seemed to have one fight with Bill Laimbeer each season. M.L. Carr could also be counted on to deliver a few cheap-shots in a pileup whenever the benches cleared (until Moses Malone busted him in the mouth during the '84 Bird-Erving brawl), and Dennis Johnson would also get in there and mix it up.

I just thought of some other '80s enforcers and hatchet men:
Larry "Mr. Mean" Smith
Jawaan Oldham 
Sidney Green
Buck Williams
Lonnie Shelton (more '70s than '80s)


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## jericho

3243 said:


> Also from the old school: Dave Cowens,* "Jungle" Jim Loscutoff*, Phil Jackson during his playing days was known as a dirty player, and we cannot forget Willis Reed, who one night in 1966 took on the entire Laker bench and won. I understand he broke at least two Laker noses.


I was going to mention Loscutoff...I have the impression that he was the most notorious thug/banger in the '50s. Alex Hannum belongs on the list, too.


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## jericho

3243 said:


> From the old days, Clyde Lovelette did a rare thing--he actually made Wilt Chamberlain mad enough to fight him. And from what I've heard and read about Wilt, that was NOT a good thing to do.


I don't think it was much of a fight. Lovellette just kept provoking him, for whatever reason. Bill Russell wrote later that he turned around in time to see Wilt "sneaking a fist out there," and then Lovellette was on all fours shaking his head. Other players were yelling at him to stay down, rather than risk another poke from the big guy.


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## jericho

But I think we're mixing up a lot of categories in this thread. 

There's the true *hatchet man*, who's going to hack and play dirty and apply bruises, and even put opposing players out of commission, all in the interest of winning a game. I would say that's Jim Loscutoff, Alex Hannum, and maybe Bill Laimbeer. 

There's the *enforcer* whose job it is to "enforce the law," mainly meaning to ensure the well-being of their teammates. These guys generally don't start fights, but know how to finish them. This is Charles Oakley, Maurice Lucas, Rick Mahorn, Wendell Ladner, Willis Reed, and Anthony Mason. 

There are the *playground bullies *who just compulsively need to start fights - either because every little thing is perceived as a slight (see: Xavier McDaniel), or because they're certifiable sociopaths (see: John Brisker). Artest is a mild case in this category, I think. Ruland could also go here. I suppose Jabali goes here, but he seems to have been a scary psycho who deserves his own category.

There's the *aggressive sore loser*, who's generally an intense competitor with sloppy impulse control who takes a swing or starts a fight out of sheer frustration. This is definitely Bird and Barkley. Also Garnett. 

Then there are the *gamesmasters*. Guys like Clyde Lovellette, Dennis Rodman, Bill Hanzlik, and Isiah Thomas, who aren't out to start fights necessarily but instead want to poke and prod you and get in your head until you start a fight. They're usually accused of being dirty, but mainly they're just crafty. Laimbeer could also go in this category. 

Then there are the *scrappers* - players who don't play headgames or go looking for trouble, but will bite back hard if bitten. This is Danny Ainge, Scott Skiles, Norm Van Lier...also Kermit Washington, who (understandably) got a bad rap for crushing Tomjanovich's face but really wasn't a troublemaker.


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## Najee

Good definitions, jericho.


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## 3243

Right on, jericho. You broke it down a lot better than I did.


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## 3243

Honorary member of this list--Ron Behagen (I don't know if he fought in the NBA, but he gets a spot on the list for coming off the bench and repeatedly stomping Luke Witte's head in college--after Witte had already been kneed in the groin by one of Behagen's teammates).


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## 3243

And a couple of '70s-'80s 76er bodyguards for Dr. J.--Steve Mix and Marc Iavaroni.


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## jericho

I remember Iavaroni...he was sort of a rich man's Mark Madsen.


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## BadBaronRudigor

3243 said:


> And a couple of '70s-'80s 76er bodyguards for Dr. J.--Steve Mix and Marc Iavaroni.


Mix wasn't a thug type, just a high energy city kid who didn't back down . . . a scrapper according to your definitions.


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## 3243

BadBaronRudigor said:


> Mix wasn't a thug type, just a high energy city kid who didn't back down . . . a scrapper according to your definitions.


Cool. I always thought of him as being more of the policeman type, never a thug. 

At any rate, Steve Mix and most of the former players on this list would not be allowed within five hundred feet of today's NBA.


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## BadBaronRudigor

Sure they would . . . people adapt to what is expected of them . . . particularly when someone offers them umpteen million dollars to do it


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