# Bargnani = Euro League Rising Star



## Schilly

Thanks to Toxicity on the draft board

Link



Article said:


> Andrea Bargnani
> Bargnani: super talent
> Bargnani started the season slow due to injury and fouls, scoring just a point in Benetton's first three Euroleague games. He showed signs of recovery in the fourth game, Benetton's only home loss of the season, against Tau Ceramica, in which he had 9 points in 12 minutes. *After that, he was not only consistent, but consistently unstoppable.* Bargnani played 16 minutes or more in 12 of the remaining 14 games until the end of the Top 16 for Benetton. *And in those 12 games, he averaged 15.3 points, something only a handful of the Euroleague's most seasoned pros could match.*





Article said:


> It should also be noted that Bargnani was playing alongside Drew, the top regular season scorer in the league, and without Nikos Zisis, the team's designated assist man, whose season was ended by injury after seven games


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## RedHot&Rolling

He might be the sleeping giant of this draft!! Most of us prefer to pick someone we've seen. But as we've seen with Nowitzski and Gasol - reaching for greatness isn't a bad plan either.


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## Talkhard

I've never seen Bargnani play, but I'm intrigued by him. An athletic, sweet-shooting 7-footer is a rare commodity, and we've seen how Gasol and Nowitzki have turned out. I like the idea of "reaching for greatness" in a pick, and taking a chance on a relatively unknown guy. 

That said, I'll have to let the Blazer brain trust make their pick. They've seen all of the top picks many more times than most of us, and have a much better feel about who will excel in the NBA and who won't.


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## Schilly

For us we really can't look at Euro stats and have any clue what it meants...as far as totals. But we can look at this. 53.3% FG and 46.6% 3pt.

Also he was in the top 7 for both 3pt shooting and blocked shots! Are you kidding me?


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## Schilly

Talkhard said:


> I've never seen Bargnani play, but I'm intrigued by him. An athletic, sweet-shooting 7-footer is a rare commodity, and we've seen how Gasol and Nowitzki have turned out. I like the idea of "reaching for greatness" in a pick, and taking a chance on a relatively unknown guy.
> 
> That said, I'll have to let the Blazer brain trust make their pick. They've seen all of the top picks many more times than most of us, and have a much better feel about who will excel in the NBA and who won't.


IIRC Pritchard had seen him about 4 times during the season and he and Nash left on Friday to watch him some more. Man I'd love some real game tape of this kid.


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## Reep

Bargnani really sounds different that some of the recent failures (Tskitishvili) in that he isn't just projected to have these skills, he is actually using them in games. I would rather have a great shooter out of this draft than another athletic project.


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## crandc

Don't know a lot about him, but I think of the Spurs drafting Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili when no one had ever heard of them. Worked pretty well.


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## ThatBlazerGuy

I have wanted this guy for a long, long time. He is the complete package. He is NOTHING like Skita. Andrea is dominant in the 2nd best league in the world. Shooting on par with Morrison, rebounding and blocking skills that can be compared to LaMarcus. Quicker than both players.


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## Samuel

Bargnani is the only guy in this draft that would go top 5 next year, also. That's the thing with those Euro prospects: it's really hard to say how good they are. 

I agree with Talkhard in that I trust that the management has seen enough tape on this guy to be able to tell. If Portland ends up with the #1, I'd love to see Bargnani knock their socks off in a Tualatin workout, ending the sense of uncertainty looming this year.


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## chromekilla

I would really love to see morrison here but as long if we pick baragni or someone else and they turn out into a star and morrison does i will be happy if morrison does and the person we draft doesnt then i am gonna be mad.


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## Blazer Maven

He looks like the real deal, 6'11" and can play SF. He has no post up game but can shoot and slash.

His defense sets him apart from Morrison and he would mesh well with Zach and Martell. His game reminds me of Rashard Lewis, although he is not as athletic.


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## Utherhimo

yeah bargnani will be working out but i havent heard if his name is actually in the draft yet, kevin and nash are in nyc as of yesterday according to mr wild rice on csmn Ive seen the clips and it looks like he a mix of dirk and camby aka dirk with better defense but not as good (right now) offense. I have a feeling he will have a great work out if we have the number 1 pick or he will "suck" if we dont that way we can pick him.

I have wanted bargnani since the begining as i have never been sold on aldridge.

COME ON PORTLAND DRAFT BARGNANI and some get morrison or sheldon williams too!


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## chromekilla

Utherhimo said:


> yeah bargnani will be working out but i havent heard if his name is actually in the draft yet, kevin and nash are in nyc as of yesterday according to mr wild rice on csmn Ive seen the clips and it looks like he a mix of dirk and camby aka dirk with better defense but not as good (right now) offense. I have a feeling he will have a great work out if we have the number 1 pick or he will "suck" if we dont that way we can pick him.
> 
> I have wanted bargnani since the begining as i have never been sold on aldridge.
> 
> COME ON PORTLAND DRAFT BARGNANI and some get morrison or sheldon williams too!


How are we supposed to get 2 top five picks?


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## Utherhimo

blake plus our two 30/31 

but sheldon williams i said too


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## Fork

Utherhimo said:


> blake plus our two 30/31 (for a top 5 pick)


Wow. If John Nash brought that offer to any team picking top 5, he'd be laughed off the face of the planet. That's not even CLOSE to a deal that ANY team would even CONSIDER taking.


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## Verro

Yep, I've been saying this for a couple months, Bargnani will be the top pick whether we're drafting there or not.


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## Reep

Fork said:


> Wow. If John Nash brought that offer to any team picking top 5, he'd be laughed off the face of the planet. That's not even CLOSE to a deal that ANY team would even CONSIDER taking.


Yeah, you would have to add Miles in to make it fair. :makeadeal 

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

I think the only way Portland gets another high pick is if Zach is included somehow. And even then with Zach's big contract it is very unlikely.


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## Verro

> blake plus our two 30/31
> 
> but sheldon williams i said too



Williams is projected to go between 7 and 10 in most mock drafts, unless he really works out poorly or measures at 6' 6" I doubt he'd drop that far. With blake and our 30/31 though we might be able to break the late teens, if Sene was still around I'd do it. He'd be a much better center project than Ha.


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## Minstrel

I've been a Bargnani proponent for the last couple of months. I think the fact that he's nearly as young as prep player and, at the same time, performing at a high level in the second-best league in the world makes him the player with the most upside.

As I said in another thread, the closest comparison I can think of is a better version of Toni Kukoc: a big man who can handle the ball well, pass extremely well, rebound, drive to the hoop and shoot the ball. The reason I feel that he'll be better than Kukoc is that he has the skills and mentality to be a first option type of scorer, as Kukoc never was.

His ceiling, to me, is a 24-25 PPG scorer who can get a triple-double in any given game.

Defense is the one thing I'd worry about with him. He could be solid, or he could be a liability.

Overall, though, I think the flaws in all the other top prospects are much greater and they don't have the same great mix of age and performance. Morrison has the best performance, but is significantly older. Gay is only a bit older but doesn't have much performance history. Aldridge is far too inconsistent and possibly too unmotivated. Thomas has great athleticism, but his size and skills are a question mark at the NBA level.


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## Utherhimo

they were just examples you guys need to chill out a bit 

nbadraft.net:

14. Utah Shelden Williams 6-9 250 PF/C Duke Sr.
15. NO/OK City Patrick O'Bryant 7-0 250 C Bradley So.
16. Chicago Ronnie Brewer 6-7 217 SG Arkansas Jr.
18. Washington Oleksiy Pecherov 6-10 232 PF Ukr. 1985
19. Sacramento Hilton Armstrong 6-11 235 C UConn Sr.
20. New York Josh Boone 6-10 237 PF UConn Jr.
22. NewJersey Aaron Gray 7-0 270 C Pittsburgh Jr.
23. New Jersey Tiago Splitter 6-11 240 PF Brazil 1985


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## Schilly

I just want to add something here....

The Euroleague Scoring title winner averaged 18ppg.


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## Dan

Schilly said:


> I just want to add something here....
> 
> The Euroleague Scoring title winner averaged 18ppg.


hm..that could either mean their defense is a LOT better than we think it is, or that their offense is a lot worse than it is.

well, it could obviously mean something else, but it seems that the other options are as likely as anything else.


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## meru

Not to pour cold water on anything, but wasn't our own Charles "Spider" Smith the scoring champion last year? Or was that something other than the Euroleague?


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## Blazer Ringbearer

SMiLE said:


> hm..that could either mean their defense is a LOT better than we think it is, or that their offense is a lot worse than it is.
> 
> well, it could obviously mean something else, but it seems that the other options are as likely as anything else.


Could also mean that they play a much more balanced team oriented game... that's what I would bet on, but I don't follow the league or anything.


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## riehldeal

by far the most intriguing thing about Andrea is his ball handling....yes dirk and pau can handle it alittle but it is slightly mechanical 

andrea's handle is exactly like a guard's......combine that with his shooting and you have a match up nightmare for an opposing big man trying to close out on this guy


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## Blazer Maven

meru said:


> Not to pour cold water on anything, but wasn't our own Charles "Spider" Smith the scoring champion last year? Or was that something other than the Euroleague?


Exactly. Spider also led the league in steals. Based on those stats, and the "fact" that the Euroleague is the second best league in the world, I thought Smith would do at least 15/4/4 with 1.5 steals a game.

The difference is that Spider was putting up stats at age 30, while ABarg is doing it at 20 and at 6"11" to boot. Let's get him an interpreter and bring him over.


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## Boob-No-More

Schilly said:


> IIRC Pritchard had seen him about 4 times during the season and he and Nash left on Friday to watch him some more. Man I'd love some real game tape of this kid.


Bargnani Google Video 

Granted, it's only a few seconds, but it does show a little of what this guy is capable of doing.

He has a quick first step for someone his size, and like many Euro bigs doesn't seem afraid to take it to the hole with authority. I wonder if he'll do the same against the bigger stronger players in the NBA. 

What's the deal with that anyway? Many of the earliest Europeans to play in the NBA were very physical. Dino Radga was a bull and whenever Sarunas Marciulionis drove the lane he looked like a human bowling ball - bouncing off players, knocking people down and still getting the shot off AND drawing the foul. I think Vlade and his flopping changed the image of European players from tough and physical to soft and weak.

In any case, I like Bargnani's combination of size, quickness (for a big) and skills. I'd love to see the Blazers get BOTH Bargnani and Morrison, but I don't think that's realistic. As much as I like Morrison's heart, desire and shooting touch, given the choice, I'd take the bigger, younger player without the health issues.

BNM


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## Blazer Maven

riehldeal said:


> by far the most intriguing thing about Andrea is his ball handling....yes dirk and pau can handle it alittle but it is slightly mechanical
> 
> andrea's handle is exactly like a guard's......combine that with his shooting and you have a match up nightmare for an opposing big man trying to close out on this guy


I have heard that ABarg has virtually no post up game. Based on his video highlights, he seems to play like a SF. He clearly has a good handle and attacks the basket well.
'
Do you see him as more of a 3 or a 4?


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## Oldmangrouch

SMiLE said:


> hm..that could either mean their defense is a LOT better than we think it is, or that their offense is a lot worse than it is.
> 
> well, it could obviously mean something else, but it seems that the other options are as likely as anything else.



Don't they also play 40 minute games?


If Bargnani comes in to workouts and blows the doors off the competition, then by all means the team should go for him. In *this* draft, a young Toni Kukoc is nothing to sneer at!

OTOH, I still think Aldridge gets a bum rap. Taking a back seat to older team-mates DOES NOT = being "unmotivated". I fell into that trap last season with Villanueva.......and I like to think I learn from my mistakes! :biggrin:


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## Schilly

Oldmangrouch said:


> OTOH, I still think Aldridge gets a bum rap. Taking a back seat to older team-mates DOES NOT = being "unmotivated". I fell into that trap last season with Villanueva.......and I like to think I learn from my mistakes! :biggrin:


I think the same can be said of Rudy Gay. I watched UCONN several times and Rudy seemed fine into the game, infact a catalyst, but Marcus Williams would take over and start to dominate teh flow...aka...Start hogging the ball.


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## Utherhimo

he was a guard before he grew he was trained as a guard


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## Reep

Boob-No-More said:


> Bargnani Google Video
> 
> Granted, it's only a few seconds, but it does show a little of what this guy is capable of doing.
> 
> BNM


Thanks for the link. I saw some other film recently, but it just showed him hitting threes and slashing for layups. It's nice to see him take it strong to the hoop too.


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## Dan

Blazer Ringbearer said:


> Could also mean that they play a much more balanced team oriented game... that's what I would bet on, but I don't follow the league or anything.


still seems like a bit of a cop out there. He doesn't score much, because it's 'team orientated'..but he's the best young guy in the 2nd best league in the world!!!!!!!111!

well, that would seem to me that they're not as good as the NBA is (obviously) and that even in a "team orientated" system, he's not THAT great.


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## Dan

Boob-No-More said:


> Bargnani Google Video
> 
> Granted, it's only a few seconds, but it does show a little of what this guy is capable of doing.
> 
> BNM


I'm not sure we want to be overly giddy about someone, based on video clips. Just as Morrison (or gay, or aldridge) can have spectacular highlights videos, they can also have videos made up of them crapping it out.

video highlights are always tainted towards over emphasizing the good, and diminishing the bad.


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## Boob-No-More

SMiLE said:


> I'm not sure we want to be overly giddy about someone, based on video clips. Just as Morrison (or gay, or aldridge) can have spectacular highlights videos, they can also have videos made up of them crapping it out.
> 
> video highlights are always tainted towards over emphasizing the good, and diminishing the bad.


Yup, that's why they're called *HIGH*lights and not *LOW*lights. It's more important to observe HOW they do something than WHAT they are doing. From the video, it's fairly obvious that Bargnani has a quicker than average first step for a big man. But, that alone doesn't make a good NBA player. Someboy asked for video of the guy. So, I posted what I could find.

I'll leave the overall evaluation of his talent and potential to Pritchard and the scouts. They've seen a lot more of him, and will see a lot more in the next two months, than anything you'll find online.

BNM


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## Scout226

SMiLE said:


> still seems like a bit of a cop out there. He doesn't score much, because it's 'team orientated'..but he's the best young guy in the 2nd best league in the world!!!!!!!111!
> 
> well, that would seem to me that they're not as good as the NBA is (obviously) and that even in a "team orientated" system, he's not THAT great.



I'm not up on the College game to much, and I'm definitely lost on the Euro game, but does anyone know how Bargnani matched up stat wise with Dirk/Pau at the same age? I guess that's a decent way to compare. Still, there is a lot of intangibles to figuring out if he's the next Dirk or Pau..


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## Schilly

SMiLE said:


> well, that would seem to me that they're not as good as the NBA is (obviously) and that even in a "team orientated" system, he's not THAT great.


How do ya figure? If you consider that the leagues leading scorer only averaged 18ppg. Hmm so at 10ppg that's only 8ppg off of the leading scorer, his teammate BTW. By comparison the NBA's leading scorer scored about 35ppg.

Now let's open our minds a little to different lengths of games...and different strategy. The euro game is 40 minutes compared to 48. Balanced fundamental basketball.

Example
Benetton Vs Treviso
Final Score 83-57
Ben. had 1 player with 17, 2 players with 16, 1 with 11, and 1 with 10
5 players 70 points


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## Utherhimo

i heard that he is doing better in a better league than both dirk and pau at his age


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## Dan

Schilly said:


> How do ya figure? If you consider that the leagues leading scorer only averaged 18ppg. Hmm so at 10ppg that's only 8ppg off of the leading scorer, his teammate BTW. By comparison the NBA's leading scorer scored about 35ppg.
> 
> Now let's open our minds a little to different lengths of games...and different strategy. The euro game is 40 minutes compared to 48. Balanced fundamental basketball.


because 35 ppg vs 18 ppg = A HUGE DIFFERENCE.



> Example
> Benetton Vs Treviso
> Final Score 83-57
> Ben. had 1 player with 17, 2 players with 16, 1 with 11, and 1 with 10
> 5 players 70 points


they might be the '2nd best league in the world', but the drop off between 1 and 2 is INCREDIBLE...and the drop off between 2 and top level college, ain't.


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## Schilly

ok ok here's an interesting link Stats leadsers in the Euroleagues for the regular season.
http://www.euroleague.net/stats/standings.jsp?temporada=E05&fase=RS051

Leading scorer
1st 18.64ppg
2nd 16.71ppg
.
.
.
15th 15.57ppg

The leading scorer only took 12.2 shots in 32 minutes per game (51%fg 47%3pt), that has to tell a person something about the league and the style of play. Compare that to Kobes 41mpg (longer than a Euro game) and 27 shots per game.


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## Toxicity

Utherhimo said:


> i heard that he is doing better in a better league than both dirk and pau at his age


Well, not exactly. First of all, Dirk Nowitzki never played in Euroleague... he only played in german 1st league (lower level than spanish and italian leagues) and has numbers like 17 ppg and 8 rpg but playing much more minutes and being the go-to-guy of his team (while Andrea is a starter for 2 months but he's just the 3rd offensive option in Benetton)... in the end it's hard to compare Andrea and Dirk at the same age.

Pau Gasol played well in both Euroleague and Spanish league (similar level to italian league) and had stats comparables with Bargnani stats right now. He finished very well that season leading his team (Barcelona) to the win of spanish championship... i hope Andrea can do the same with Benetton Treviso in italian playoffs! 

A little annotation: it's not true that Bargnani has a ball-handling like Kukoc. He dribbles very well for his size but he's not a great and creative passer like Toni... he's an average passer. He uses his handle mainly to score thanks to his first step and slashing abilities... but he's more athletic, faster and he's a better defender than Kukoc so he could do better in NBA.

Some other clips about Bargnani:

http://rapidshare.de/files/16239359/Andrea_Bargnani_offensive_rebound.avi.html (dunk after OR)

http://rapidshare.de/files/16240200/Andrea_Bargnani_Reverse_Dunk___Foul.avi.html (reverse dunk)

http://195.56.77.208/other/video/5-10649-dsl.wmv (one-hand slam)

Enjoy! :banana:


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## SheedSoNasty

Maybe Bargnani is Morrison and Thomas rolled into one player? I haven't really seen much of him, but from what I hear he sounds very intriguing.


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## Kopay

Bargnani sounds very intriguing. He could be the top pick in the draft. So what's his buy-out situation like? Who owns him, and how long is he under contract over there? I don't remember off the top of my head who Orlando drafted last year in the lottery, but he decided to just go back overseas instead of coming to the States. We need help now, and if there is any questions about his availability next year, he'll slide down our draft charts.


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## chromekilla

proably like 50k they dont have big contracts over seas.We need to make sure he is nba ready not some nervous overseas player that we waste a pick on after seeing orlandos pick i just dont think i want to take a chance.


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## italianBBlover

Toxicity said:


> http://rapidshare.de/files/16239359/Andrea_Bargnani_offensive_rebound.avi.html (dunk after OR)



:banana:


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## SheedSoNasty

Fran Vasquez!


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## Dan

Zidane said:


> proably like 50k they dont have big contracts over seas.We need to make sure he is nba ready not some nervous overseas player that we waste a pick on after seeing orlandos pick i just dont think i want to take a chance.


sergei's buy-out was almost 500k...somehow I doubt that Bargani only has a 50K buy-out


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## italianBBlover

Kopay said:


> So what's his buy-out situation like? Who owns him, and how long is he under contract over there? I don't remember off the top of my head who Orlando drafted last year in the lottery, but he decided to just go back overseas instead of coming to the States.


No problems about that: Benetton Treviso is probably the most "NBA-friendly" team in Europe.


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## chromekilla

SMiLE said:


> sergei's buy-out was almost 500k...somehow I doubt that Bargani only has a 50K buy-out


MY bad i thought they had small salarys.


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## Blazer Ringbearer

SMiLE said:


> still seems like a bit of a cop out there. He doesn't score much, because it's 'team orientated'..but he's the best young guy in the 2nd best league in the world!!!!!!!111!
> 
> well, that would seem to me that they're not as good as the NBA is (obviously) and that even in a "team orientated" system, he's not THAT great.


Well, I wasn't trying to make an excuse for him not scoring much.

The point is the top scorer in the league only gets 18 points in about 30 minutes of play...

Extend that to an NBA go-to-guy and that would be something more like 24 ppg in about 40 minutes.

They still score less, but I don't see how balanced scoring makes the quality of play in the league poor... to me, it seems like it has a lot to do with a different style of play and culture even.

You seem a bit defensive about this, my friend... people just get excited and he looks like a solid prospect. Let's have fun!


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## zagsfan20

I wouldn't want to use my top pick on the 3rd option on a Euroleague team...But thats just me...

His video's aren't anything to gush over IMO...

With that said, my draft wish-list order goes like this...

Morrison
Bargnani
Thomas
Aldridge
Carney 

Gay and Noah don't impress me as a top 4 picks and Brandon Roy is a good solid player, but not a top 5 pick IMO...


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## Dan

Blazer Ringbearer said:


> You seem a bit defensive about this, my friend... people just get excited and he looks like a solid prospect. Let's have fun!


not being defensive, it just seems that for all the flack people give Zagsfan for defending Morrison and his competition, it's rather funny to hear people coming up with all sorts of examples of how Bargani's stats are much more "real", despite being as flawed as his rationale is.


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## chromekilla

zagsfan20 said:


> I wouldn't want to use my top pick on the 3rd option on a Euroleague team...But thats just me...
> 
> His video's aren't anything to gush over IMO...
> 
> With that said, my draft wish-list order goes like this...
> 
> Morrison
> Bargnani
> Thomas
> Aldridge
> Carney
> 
> Gay and Noah don't impress me as a top 4 picks and Brandon Roy is a good solid player, but not a top 5 pick IMO...


good post zags.I agree with that i just hope we get a sold player whomever we draft because we need a star or at least a solid player that cares.


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## riehldeal

i see Andrea as a PF due to his highest likelihood of success there at the 4

Andrea due to his rare skill set and handle would pose far more problems as a 4...making his transition that much easier...

BUT without the addition of a post game then opposing teams will just put a SF on him who is more capable of defending out on the perimeter....

Best case scenario is Andrea adds one capable post move to use against smaller defenders (SF's)...and thus keeping bigger slower players on him and picking them apart with his jumper and handle....

short answer- Andrea will be an all star if he is at the 4....only solid player at the 3 (his biggest attributes being less substantial at the 3)


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## QRICH

John Nash said right now he's a PF with a chance to develope into a Center.


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## wastro

In that video with the offensive rebound and dunk .... he followed it up with a free throw. That's all I need to know.

Make him a Blazer!

Gotta love the hair, too. Our choices are a floppy mophead in Morrison, a mini mohawk in Bargnani or a ... well ... I don't know what you'd call Noah's poof (it looks like an afro's afro, I guess).


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## Oldmangrouch

QRICH said:


> John Nash said right now he's a PF with a chance to develope into a Center.


A center with a diverse offensive game?

OK, now you are just making me all tingly! :drool:


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## Toxicity

QRICH said:


> John Nash said right now he's a PF with a chance to develope into a Center.


No way... he'd be wasted talent as center. He wouldn't have enough strenght even if he bulks up. 

He's a PF right now... for sure he can play some minutes at 3 or 5 spots (like Dirk) but not full time.


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## italianBBlover

Toxicity said:


> He's a PF right now... for sure he can play some minutes at 3 or 5 spots (like Dirk) but not full time.


100% agree


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## italianBBlover

About Euroleague(s) and scoring: as said others, the offense of the euro teams is more balanced.
Usually we have a guy with 18 points, 2 others with 14-15 points, 3 with 8-10 points and so, rarely a guy with 35 points and then the others with 7-9 points ...

Look the Suns and you have a very good NBA example (D'Antoni ...).

Obviously there is also the question of the minutes: with 40 minutes intstead of 48 , our scores are pretty high (due the balanced and skilled offense, not bad defense).

Think that the last season of D'Antoni as coach of Benetton Treviso, his team was averaging 96ppg ! 96ppg in 40 minutes ... think about 8 more minutes ...


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## Talkhard

> I've been a Bargnani proponent for the last couple of months. I think the fact that he's nearly as young as prep player and, at the same time, performing at a high level in the second-best league in the world makes him the player with the most upside.
> 
> As I said in another thread, the closest comparison I can think of is a better version of Toni Kukoc: a big man who can handle the ball well, pass extremely well, rebound, drive to the hoop and shoot the ball. The reason I feel that he'll be better than Kukoc is that he has the skills and mentality to be a first option type of scorer, as Kukoc never was.
> 
> His ceiling, to me, is a 24-25 PPG scorer who can get a triple-double in any given game.


Dang! If you're right, we need to grab this guy. Our draft pick this year is very important. We can't afford to blow this one. 

Would Bargnani be the first guy from Italy to make it in the NBA? Anyone know?


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## Masbee

italianBBlover said:


> 100% agree


What is the buzz on Bargnani in Italy?

Are they super excited about his potential?

Is he seen turning into the best Italian basketball player ever?

Is he Italy's Dirk, Pao or Yao - a breakthrough player, far better than all before?

Or not?


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## Dan

italianBBlover said:


> About Euroleague(s) and scoring: as said others, the offense of the euro teams is more balanced.
> Usually we have a guy with 18 points, 2 others with 14-15 points, 3 with 8-10 points and so, rarely a guy with 35 points and then the others with 7-9 points ...
> 
> Look the Suns and you have a very good NBA example (D'Antoni ...).


I'm not sure if I'd be trumpetting out Phoenix as an example. Their leading scorer last year was 26 ppg. And with the new (relatively unknown) players that are on their now, are scoring a lot better than they ever have.

Doesn't mean they will elsewhere.

plus, phoenix's problem isn't their ability to score..but their ability to *defend*.


----------



## Samuel

Masbee said:


> Is he seen turning into the best Italian basketball player ever?













"The three Italian players in NBA history--Hank Biasatti for the Toronto Huskies in 1946-47, and Vincenzo Esposito of the Toronto Raptors and Stefano Rusconi of the Phoenix Suns in 1995-96--have totaled 130 career points. Esposito accounts for 116 of them." Source


----------



## Talkhard

Thanks, Samuel. I guess that means Bargnani WOULD be the first NBA player from Italy.


----------



## Stepping Razor

I know Ginobili is Argentinian, but is he ethnically Italian? (I wonder, based only on his Italian-sounding name, and the fact that there's a big Italian community in Argentina.)

Kinda funny, if he is... the two best "Italian" players in the NBA would then be an Argentine and Kobe Bryant.

I think it's safe to say Bargnani would be the first "real" Italian star in the league.

How awesome would it be to see thousands of Italian kids running around in Portland jerseys...

Stepping Razor


----------



## crandc

Yes, Ginobili is ethnic Italian. He is followed by media/fans in both Argentina and in Italy. There is quite a large Italian community in Argentina (Diana Taurasi being one).


----------



## Stepping Razor

crandc said:


> Yes, Ginobili is ethnic Italian. He is followed by media/fans in both Argentina and in Italy. There is quite a large Italian community in Argentina (Diana Taurasi being one).


Thanks, crandc, that's what I thought I had heard (and also suspected based on ItalianBBLover's avatar...) 

The more I think about it, the more I love the idea of the Blazers becoming Italy's favorite team if they nab Bargnani. 

I had no idea about Taurasi. Did she come to the states for the first time to play college ball, or did she grow up here?

Stepping Razor


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

SMiLE said:


> not being defensive, it just seems that for all the flack people give Zagsfan for defending Morrison and his competition, it's rather funny to hear people coming up with all sorts of examples of how Bargani's stats are much more "real", despite being as flawed as his rationale is.


Maybe I missed something or am less cynical - but I didn't read people's raving as a direct slight to Morrison and his level of competition.

I really think people are just excited about one of many prospects, and I think there is real merit to the Euroleague being one of the world's top leagues with a very different style of play.

That said, if Bargnani was as good as Nowitski or Gasol in their prime, he would obviously be scoring more but I don't think that is anyone's assertion. He's a good young player with good potential and I can see why people argue that he could possibly achieve that level of play someday.

Really, who knows? It's all good fun...


----------



## Utherhimo

Toxic and ItalianBBlover who are your favorite teams? 

interesting that Danoti (italian? italianamerican?) coached Bargnani's team....most interesting.

I want Bargnani with all this aldridge talk makes me wonder if it just a smoke screen for getting Bargnani, there seems to be a lot of scouts watching him threw out the year not just now. Come on Nash and CO. DRAFT Bargnani! 

BB and TOXIC what team do you think he will be best on and fit most with are there any other players that you have seen that will be in the draft like:

Oleksiy Pecherov 6-10 232 PF Ukr. 1985
Saer Sene 7-0 235 C Sen. 1986
Marcus Vinicius 6-9 220 SF Brazil 1984
Thabo Sefolosha 6-6 213 SG Switz. 1984
Damir Markota 6-10 225 SF Cro.1985
Sun Yue 6-9 205 SG China 1985
Mirza Teletovic 6-8 235 PF Bos. 1985
Lior Eliahu 6-9 225 PF/SF Israel 1985


----------



## Toxicity

Utherhimo said:


> Toxic and ItalianBBlover who are your favorite teams?


I haven't a favourite NBA team right now (i'll have after the draft), i just like to see all NBA games broadcasted here... but if i had to choose i'd say Phoenix for coach D'Antoni and his spectacular game and San Antonio for Ginobili (who played very well some years here in Italy)... i like also Dallas for Dirk and Memphis for Pau...



> interesting that Danoti (italian? italianamerican?) coached Bargnani's team....most interesting.


D'Antoni (born in United States but a dual citizen of the US and Italy) played in the great Philips Milano (one of the greatest teams in history of Europe) and also for Italian NT... i like his style! :banana: 



> I want Bargnani with all this aldridge talk makes me wonder if it just a smoke screen for getting Bargnani, there seems to be a lot of scouts watching him threw out the year not just now. Come on Nash and CO. DRAFT Bargnani!
> 
> BB and TOXIC what team do you think he will be best on and fit most with are there any other players that you have seen that will be in the draft like:
> 
> Oleksiy Pecherov 6-10 232 PF Ukr. 1985
> Saer Sene 7-0 235 C Sen. 1986
> Marcus Vinicius 6-9 220 SF Brazil 1984
> Thabo Sefolosha 6-6 213 SG Switz. 1984
> Damir Markota 6-10 225 SF Cro.1985
> Sun Yue 6-9 205 SG China 1985
> Mirza Teletovic 6-8 235 PF Bos. 1985
> Lior Eliahu 6-9 225 PF/SF Israel 1985


In Italy we're all excited about the (supposedly bright) future of Andrea. It's not so important the team which will draft him, it's important the system, the coach and the PT he'll have. Beyond this, i don't think Portland is the best choice if Randolph doesn't leave (at the same time Toronto wouldn't be right if they keep Bosh and Villanueva)... Chicago would be a nice team because they lack an offensive PF complementary to Chandler. Also Charlotte and Atlanta could be good places... basically any team that lacks an offensive oriented forward! 

I only hope Andrea won't go to NY Knicks... i don't think that city and system (and coach, and pressure, etc) is good for him.

About other prospects you've mentioned i know well Marcus Vinicius and Thabo Sefolosha, nice players with good upside (i like the swiss more)... i've heard something good about Pecherov and i've seen a couple of Markota games (both big men with offensive skills similar to Bargnani) and he's not bad...


----------



## Fork

SMiLE said:


> not being defensive, it just seems that for all the flack people give Zagsfan for defending Morrison and his competition, it's rather funny to hear people coming up with all sorts of examples of how Bargani's stats are much more "real", despite being as flawed as his rationale is.


The flack zagsfan got was not at all due to his admiration for Morrison, it was for telling people they didn't know anything about basketball or were racist if they didn't think Morrison was the best prospect in the upcoming draft.


----------



## italianBBlover

Talkhard said:


> Would Bargnani be the first guy from Italy to make it in the NBA? Anyone know?


As Samuel said, we had in NBA 2 "pure" italians: SG Vincenzo Esposito from Naples did something with the Raptors, while center Rusconi from Treviso had just 6 games with Suns, both back in 1995-96.

Then we had a couple of italo-american back in the '70s.

Ginobili and Nocioni are both argentinian-italian (and we love above all Manu because he played 4 years here), while last but tot least Kobe grew and started to play basketball here in Italy.

Ciao


----------



## italianBBlover

Masbee said:


> What is the buzz on Bargnani in Italy?
> 
> Are they super excited about his potential?
> 
> Is he seen turning into the best Italian basketball player ever?
> 
> Is he Italy's Dirk, Pao or Yao - a breakthrough player, far better than all before?
> 
> Or not?


There is obviously lot of excitement in Italy about him, even on the media.

For sure he's going to be one of the best, if not the best italian player of ever.

The other young guys (Mancinelli, Belinelli, Gallinari, DaTome etc) are on the same way.

In the past we had very good players like HoF Meneghin, Antonello Riva, Marzorati, Walter Magnifico etc, but no one had the potentiali of the actual italia youngs like Bargnani.


----------



## italianBBlover

SMiLE said:


> plus, phoenix's problem isn't their ability to score..but their ability to *defend*.


So, where's the "problem" ? if they can score 100+ points every night (as they do the 90% of the times), where is the problem ? 

it's enough have on your team good scorers and shooters; it's logic that if you have guys those can't throw down a ball from 10ft, you will have problems if you don't defend ... 

Where is the "defensive difference" between a Spur's 85-70 and a Sun's 110-95 ?

If you usually use just 10-14 seconds to make a basket, it's natural that the opposite team can score a lot of basket, while if you use every time 20-22", the opposite team has less time to make its baskets.

It's clear the point ?

Ciao


----------



## italianBBlover

Stepping Razor said:


> I know Ginobili is Argentinian, but is he ethnically Italian? (I wonder, based only on his Italian-sounding name, and the fact that there's a big Italian community in Argentina.)


Almost every player from Argentina has got both argentinian and italian citizenship; the various Ginobili, Nocioni, Scola, Oberto, Montecchia etc have all italian grandparents or greats-grandparents.
The italian in Argentina emigrated there in the late '800s/early '900s and the 90% of them are from Veneto and from my region (Trentino South Tyrol).


----------



## Talkhard

I just watched the two videos of Bargnani that are posted on O-Live. He's extremely athletic for a big man, and has a very smooth stroke. I did notice a quirk to his form though--on his jump shot, he spreads his legs as he comes back down, so that his feet end up much farther apart than they were when he went up for the shot. Nothing wrong with that, just a quirk.


----------



## italianBBlover

Utherhimo said:


> Toxic and ItalianBBlover who are your favorite teams?



My favourite team is Phoenix, because D'Antoni and his style of play (small ball, shooters etc) 

Then I follow a few also the Spurs (Manu) and the Bulls (Nocioni).

Anyway I like to follow all the teams; obviously I'll follow the Blazers with more attention if they draft Andrea :biggrin: 

About the "best" team for him, I'm on the same frequency of Toxicity, even if I think that Portland wouldn't be so bad above all if Randolph will go away.

Who knows ... wait and see


----------



## Samuel

italianBBlover said:


> My favourite team is Phoenix, because D'Antoni and his style of play (small ball, shooters etc)
> 
> The I follow a little also the Spurs (Manu) and the Bulls (Nocioni).
> 
> Anyway I like to follow all the teams; obviously I'll follow the Blazers with more attention if they draft Andrea :biggrin:
> 
> About the "best" team for him, I'm on the same frequency of Toxicity, even if I think that Portland wouldn't be so bad above all if Randolph will go away.
> 
> Who knows ... wait and see


From what I hear about Bargnani's attitude, work ethic and team mindset, it sounds like Nate would play him as many minutes as possible. And unless Nate is going away from the flex to a fast-paced system, I think he'd log most of his minutes at the 3.


----------



## wastro

I know they're just highlight videos, but the clips on O-Live were mighty impressive. He has a quick stroke, isn't afraid to drive and seems pretty creative with the ball.

I think a lot of fans would be angry if we didn't draft Morrison, but I think they'd come around in a hurry if they drafted Bargnani.


----------



## zagsfan20

Fork said:


> The flack zagsfan got was not at all due to his admiration for Morrison, it was for telling people they didn't know anything about basketball or were racist if they didn't think Morrison was the best prospect in the upcoming draft.


Show me 1 time, just 1 time where I have said I thought people were racist if they didn't think Morrison was the best prospect in the draft...


----------



## Dan

italianBBlover said:


> So, where's the "problem" ? if they can score 100+ points every night (as they do the 90% of the times), where is the problem ?


the playoffs series are won by teams that play defense.


> it's enough have on your team good scorers and shooters; it's logic that if you have guys those can't throw down a ball from 10ft, you will have problems if you don't defend ...


if you can't defend, it means that the other teams don't have to worry as much on offense. It's why Phoenix lost last year against the Spurs. They play a gimmicky offense that relies too much (then) on outside shooting and not playing defense.

just outscoring your opponent isn't the best thing to do. Especially when a good defense will give a good offense more trouble than the other way around.



> Where is the "defensive difference" between a Spur's 85-70 and a Sun's 110-95 ?


because one relies on a team not being able to score as much (phoenix) and the other relies on their team STOPPING you from scoring.



> If you usually use just 10-14 seconds to make a basket, it's natural that the opposite team can score a lot of basket, while if you use every time 20-22", the opposite team has less time to make its baskets.
> 
> It's clear the point ?
> 
> Ciao



defense (at least above adequate (sp) ) is very important. Even if you don't have a good individual defensive team, if they play good TEAM defense, it's important.

It's why when Detroit played LA, they won. Even if Detroits offense (that year) was lagging, their defense is what brought them to the dance. Now they're both offense AND defense.

The Suns are just offense, and little defense. It's why they won't make it to the finals this year. And it's why they won't ever make it to the finals until they play much better defense and lose the gimmicky offense.


----------



## Dan

zagsfan20 said:


> Show me 1 time, just 1 time where I have said I thought people were racist if they didn't think Morrison was the best prospect in the draft...


ok, can do.



zagsfan20 said:


> If you don't like Morrison, you're a racist race-hole! HA! burn! thats a good one.
> 
> here's my Jim Rome impersonation.
> 
> PHA
> 
> wait for it.
> 
> NOMINAL!
> 
> and I'm owt!
> 
> Racist haters get bent!
> 
> clones
> 
> HUGE CALL OF THE DAY...
> 
> "All you Adam Morrison haters are a bunch of Racist Raceholes. I'm Audi 5000!!!!!"


see?


----------



## zagsfan20

Good golly, I must have forgotten... :banghead:


----------



## Dan

zagsfan20 said:


> Good golly, I must have forgotten... :banghead:


the funny thing is, you got the reference wrong. the "pha....wait for it...NOMINAL" is actually from the character Barney, on "how i met your mother".

you can't even get your insults right.

jeesh. baldie!


----------



## zagsfan20

SMiLE said:


> the funny thing is, you got the reference wrong. the "pha....wait for it...NOMINAL" is actually from the character Barney, on "how i met your mother".
> 
> you can't even get your insults right.
> 
> jeesh. baldie!



errrrrrrr I'm Out!


----------



## ptownblazer1

All I have to say is that having this first pick sucks...

whatever way we go...we are going to be known as the team that didn't pick this player or that player. 

My vote for the pick...the European. I said Morrison in the beginning, I know. But after watching the video...all I can say is wow, I was very impressed by his play. 

Did someone say Sabonis?! :clap:


----------



## chromekilla

ptownblazer1 said:


> All I have to say is that having this first pick sucks...
> 
> whatever way we go...we are going to be known as the team that didn't pick this player or that player.
> 
> My vote for the pick...the European. I said Morrison in the beginning, I know. But after watching the video...all I can say is wow, I was very impressed by his play.
> 
> Did someone say Sabonis?! :clap:


feel the same way the only way to right the situation is to have the number 1 and number 2 picks.


----------



## crandc

Stepping Razor said:


> Thanks, crandc, that's what I thought I had heard (and also suspected based on ItalianBBLover's avatar...)
> 
> The more I think about it, the more I love the idea of the Blazers becoming Italy's favorite team if they nab Bargnani.
> 
> I had no idea about Taurasi. Did she come to the states for the first time to play college ball, or did she grow up here?
> 
> Stepping Razor


Well, the Italians will still watch the Spurs.
Taurasi's family came to the US, where she was born. Her father was a professional soccer player. One of the means Geno Auriemma used to recruit her to UConn (there was, as you can imagine, a lot of competition for her) was to visit her home and speak Italian to her parents.


----------



## B_&_B

The more I read and see of him, the more I hope we draft him.


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

Zidane said:


> feel the same way the only way to right the situation is to have the number 1 and number 2 picks.


You'd look really stupid if you passed on the best player of the draft twice...


----------



## B_&_B

wastro said:


> I know they're just highlight videos, but the clips on O-Live were mighty impressive. He has a quick stroke, isn't afraid to drive and seems pretty creative with the ball.
> 
> I think a lot of fans would be angry if we didn't draft Morrison, but I think they'd come around in a hurry if they drafted Bargnani.


Can someone post the highlights on O-Live over here?


----------



## Trader Ed

DEFENSE wins championships is a phrase with good merits to it

Just watch Detroit play.. whn they want to clamp down and play D, the other team is almost hopeless. 

I bet it ends up with Detroit and the Spurs this year, with the Pistons winning it all on D




I would love to get Bargnani and Adam in this years draft.... :clap:


----------



## Utherhimo

hehe funny how everyone is agreeing with me now  

bargnani and adam  what an odd idea 

forget aldridge go for bargnani! you here that Mike rice forget alidridge!


----------



## chromekilla

Blazer Ringbearer said:


> You'd look really stupid if you passed on the best player of the draft twice...


What are u talking about if we has 2 1st round picks 1-2 consecutivly(sp) we could have 2 chances at a good player.


----------



## Talkhard

Zidane said:


> What are u talking about if we has 2 1st round picks 1-2 consecutivly(sp) we coule have 2 chances at a goog player,


True enough, but he's pointing out that having the first 2 picks will not necessarily save you from making a big mistake. Think of the '84 draft, when Michael Jordan was picked at No. 3. If one team had had both of the first two picks, they still might have overlooked Jordan (as both Houston and Portland did.)


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

Talkhard said:


> True enough, but he's pointing out that having the first 2 picks will not necessarily save you from making a big mistake. Think of the '74 draft, when Michael Jordan was picked at No. 3. If one team had had both of the first two picks, they still might have overlooked Jordan (as both Houston and Portland did.)


 :yes:

Well said. I was thinking of that example too when I wrote that, although Hakeem (who went #1) was a pretty good consolation prize that year.


----------



## chromekilla

Talkhard said:


> True enough, but he's pointing out that having the first 2 picks will not necessarily save you from making a big mistake. Think of the '74 draft, when Michael Jordan was picked at No. 3. If one team had had both of the first two picks, they still might have overlooked Jordan (as both Houston and Portland did.)


Thats a point but u would think mgmt could get at least one of the players to pan out and has a much better chance at getting a star if one is to be had.


----------



## Talkhard

Zidane said:


> Thats a point but u would think mgmt could get at least one of the players to pan out and has a much better chance at getting a star if one is to be had.


I agree, Zidane. I would love to have the first 2 picks in the draft for the very reason you state.


----------



## Utherhimo

when is his next game and when is his last game?


----------



## sjla2kology101

dont know if anyone has seen this but heres a highlight of him

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8507760607728565556&q=bargnani&pl=true


----------



## BBert

sjla2kology101 said:


> dont know if anyone has seen this but heres a highlight of him
> 
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8507760607728565556&q=bargnani&pl=true


That's the one I've been waiting for -- thanks! :greatjob: 

Sign him up!


----------



## chromekilla

anyone have a video of a regular game not just higlights because highlights are 99.9% good for the player.THe highlights like kobe dunking on nash arent good.


----------



## Samuel

<img src="http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/51522733.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=EF9EAFEBB26F02D40AE93611E3B57F57" />


----------



## Samuel

<img src="http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/51577259.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=EF9EAFEBB26F02D4DA24AA45614A07B7" />


----------



## Samuel

<img src="http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/51675420.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=EF9EAFEBB26F02D4A601CD8335A34E12" />


----------



## Goldmember

Those pictures remind of last year when folks had pictures of Gerald Green wearing a Blazer jersey. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.


----------



## Samuel

Goldmember said:


> Those pictures remind of last year when folks had pictures of Gerald Green wearing a Blazer jersey. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.


That was actually a preseason game from last season. He had 13 points and 5 boards.


----------



## Scout226

I remember seeing somthing about Barnani playing the Raptors last season for an exhibition game. Anyone have the boxscore? One tidbit I saw said he continually blew by Bosh.


----------



## Samuel

Scout226 said:



> I remember seeing somthing about Barnani playing the Raptors last season for an exhibition game. Anyone have the boxscore? One tidbit I saw said he continually blew by Bosh.


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/scores104/104294/20041020NBA--TORONTO---0.htm


----------



## Scout226

Samuel said:


> http://www.usatoday.com/sports/scores104/104294/20041020NBA--TORONTO---0.htm



Thanks Samuel!

Bargnani didn't do to bad. He also had 2 blks. Pretty good for someone who just turned 19yrs old at the time.


----------



## sa1177

Scout226 said:


> Thanks Samuel!
> 
> Bargnani didn't do to bad. He also had 2 blks. Pretty good for someone who just turned 19yrs old at the time.


Great find fellas I wasn't aware of this...nice to see some info on how he matches up against NBA players. Did any of you watch this game? I would be curious to hear how the Bargani vs. Bosh matchup went. 

You say Bargani blew by Bosh a few times??


----------



## Scout226

sa1177 said:


> Great find fellas I wasn't aware of this...nice to see some info on how he matches up against NBA players. Did any of you watch this game? I would be curious to hear how the Bargani vs. Bosh matchup went.
> 
> You say Bargani blew by Bosh a few times??


http://www.draftexpress.com/viewprofile.php?p=154




> NBA people surely remember him because of the very solid performance he had in a preseason game against the Toronto Raptors, showing he can beat players off the dribble numerous times, even a very quick power forward like Chris Bosh.


----------



## Dan

his shot form seems even more awkward than Morrisons, and he's not terribly fast. 

He still seems to just be a taller guy who's playing against shorter guys (and seemingly, sub-par defense). I just don't see why people are getting all that excited about him, more so than anyone else I mean.

his defense is better, but thats against sub-par competition (and smaller/weaker players).


----------



## meru

SMiLE said:


> his shot form seems even more awkward than Morrisons, and he's not terribly fast.
> 
> He still seems to just be a taller guy who's playing against shorter guys (and seemingly, sub-par defense). I just don't see why people are getting all that excited about him, more so than anyone else I mean.
> 
> his defense is better, but thats against sub-par competition (and smaller/weaker players).


For a guy who's adopted the moniker "SMiLE", you sure are a gloomy cuss, Hap.

However, I do agree that the clips don't make him look super-special. That said, he's very mobile when you remember that he's 7 feet tall. And these aren't highschoolers he's playing against - they're grown men playing professionally. But I have a feeling he would have a much more gradual learning curve in the league - more Dirk Nowitzki than Pau Gasol. A lot of people would be complaining next year, even if he's eventually good.


----------



## Toxicity

SMiLE said:


> his shot form seems even more awkward than Morrisons, and he's not terribly fast.


 

C'mon, have you ever seen a 7'0" with a faster shooting release?!? A minimum of objectivity: his shot is fluid, quick and automatic... he's a guard rather than a power forward!



> He still seems to just be a taller guy who's playing against shorter guys (and seemingly, sub-par defense). I just don't see why people are getting all that excited about him, more so than anyone else I mean.
> 
> his defense is better, but thats against sub-par competition (and smaller/weaker players).


Again? 

sub-par competition?!? Man, that competition is tougher than NCAA... put that in your head...

and there are much more shorter guys in college basketball (where you can see often a 6-5 PF or a 6-6 C) than in Euroleague... :wave:


----------



## Samuel

SMiLE said:


> He still seems to just be a taller guy who's playing against shorter guys (and seemingly, sub-par defense). I just don't see why people are getting all that excited about him, more so than anyone else I mean.


- Played over 60 games each year over the past two seasons.
- Is said to be closer to 250 than 220.
- Aggressive with the ball around the hoop
- Can hit free throws.
- Plays good defense against professionals, not high schoolers.
- He's 7 feet tall and has a consistent jumper.

Those things right there make him worth drafting if he's there, IMO. He has less question marks than Aldridge with just as much upside. Plus he might be able to play the 3 at times. 

Portland will be bad next season but as Kevin Pritchard says, this draft is a "-7". He believes that the top player this season will be available at the #7 spot, well within our reach.


----------



## Dan

Toxicity said:


> C'mon, have you ever seen a 7'0" with a faster shooting release?!? A minimum of objectivity: his shot is fluid, quick and automatic... he's a guard rather than a power forward!


the same has been said about morrison, yet, his shot will be blocked. I don't see how 4 inches in height makes up THAT much difference.


> Again?
> 
> sub-par competition?!? Man, that competition is tougher than NCAA... put that in your head...


repeating that it's "tougher than NCAA" doesn't make it true. If it's tougher, why haven't there been many of their players who do good in the NBA then, compared to the # of college players?



> and there are much more shorter guys in college basketball (where you can see often a 6-5 PF or a 6-6 C) than in Euroleague... :wave:


you see players that small in the lower division teams, not division 1.

I think his hype is being blown up BECAUSE he's european (just as morrisons is because he's 'local').

they aren't enough different for people to be "we HAVE to get one" vs the other


----------



## Dan

Samuel said:


> - Played over 60 games each year over the past two seasons.
> - Is said to be closer to 250 than 220.


big freaking deal?



> - Aggressive with the ball around the hoop
> - Can hit free throws.
> - Plays good defense against professionals, not high schoolers.
> - He's 7 feet tall and has a consistent jumper.
> 
> Those things right there make him worth drafting if he's there, IMO. He has less question marks than Aldridge with just as much upside. Plus he might be able to play the 3 at times.
> 
> Portland will be bad next season but as Kevin Pritchard says, this draft is a "-7". He believes that the top player this season will be available at the #7 spot, well within our reach.


against european pro's, which is different than NBA pros.

again, look at Charles Smith (depite being much older). he was, at best, a scrub..

_on a HORRIBLE_ team here.


----------



## ThatBlazerGuy

I will put it this way. If we take Adam Morrison from last year(because Andrea is more than a year younger than Adam) and put him in the Euro league, I have no doubt that his numbers would not be as good as Andrea. As for him being overhyped because he is a euro and not a college player, can you show me one seven foot tall college player that has the shot Andrea has along with good rebounding and blocking skills. Answer, their is no one near his skill set in NCAA.


----------



## Dan

ThatBlazerGuy said:


> I will put it this way. If we take Adam Morrison from last year(because Andrea is more than a year younger than Adam) and put him in the Euro league, I have no doubt that his numbers would not be as good as Andrea. As for him being overhyped because he is a euro and not a college player, can you show me one seven foot tall college player that has the shot Andrea has along with good rebounding and blocking skills. Answer, their is no one near his skill set in NCAA.


yah, because most go to the NBA already.


----------



## Minstrel

SMiLE said:


> the same has been said about morrison, yet, his shot will be blocked. I don't see how 4 inches in height makes up THAT much difference.


It makes a big difference. If a perimeter player defends him on the perimeter, those four inches mean that he can simply shoot over his defender, the way Nowitzki does. If a player with the size to challenge Bargnani's shot defends him out on the perimeter, Bargnani can drive past him.

Morrison can't out-quick a small forward nor can he shoot over him. Bargnani, due to his size and quickness, is a matchup nightmare unless you have an athletic freak like Garnett or McGrady, who have both great size and quickness.



> repeating that it's "tougher than NCAA" doesn't make it true. If it's tougher, why haven't there been many of their players who do good in the NBA then, compared to the # of college players?


Because the Euroleague is made up of players too old to be prospects. College players are young enough to be expected to improve, and the best ones will make up the NBA (the toughest league in the world). The rest can't match the older, more experienced Euroleague players, who aren't good enough to play in the NBA but are better than college players who haven't yet reached their prime.

Bargnani, however, _is_ young, like a college player, yet is holding his own against these tougher, older players. So he has both the upside of a college prospect and the performance history against a better brand of competition.


----------



## Dan

Minstrel said:


> It makes a big difference. If a perimeter player defends him on the perimeter, those four inches mean that he can simply shoot over his defender, the way Nowitzki does. If a player with the size to challenge Bargnani's shot defends him out on the perimeter, Bargnani can drive past him.
> 
> Morrison can't out-quick a small forward nor can he shoot over him.


how do you know he can't shoot over them?

I guess thats why his outside shots got blocked so much in college. 


> Bargnani, due to his size and quickness, is a matchup nightmare unless you have an athletic freak like Garnett or McGrady, who have both great size and quickness.


so now it'll take an athletic freak to guard Bargani otherwise it'll be a "matchup nightmare"?

jesus christ, you'd think this kid will come in here and average 25 ppg the way people talk about him.



> Because the Euroleague is made up of players too old to be prospects. College players are young enough to be expected to improve, and the best ones will make up the NBA (the toughest league in the world). The rest can't match the older, more experienced Euroleague players, who aren't good enough to play in the NBA but are better than college players who haven't yet reached their prime.


thats debatable



> Bargnani, however, _is_ young, like a college player, yet is holding his own against these tougher, older players. So he has both the upside of a college prospect and the performance history against a better brand of competition.


they're older, and not really good prospects of his age group, and most of them probably wouldn't make a dent in the NBA. So I'd *hope* he plays better against them


----------



## Minstrel

SMiLE said:


> how do you know he can't shoot over them?
> 
> I guess thats why his outside shots got blocked so much in college.


The average college player is far smaller and less athletic than the average NBA player. I wouldn't expect his shot to be blocked much in college. I would expect (I don't _know_ for a fact, this is all speculation) that he'll have a lot of shots smothered (that is, he won't even attempt them because he doesn't have the space) in the NBA.



> so now it'll take an athletic freak to guard Bargani otherwise it'll be a "matchup nightmare"?


Yes, that's what having a quick, athletic seven-footer with a nice shot gives you.



> jesus christ, you'd think this kid will come in here and average 25 ppg the way people talk about him.


I think he has that potential, in his prime.



> thats debatable


Not really. Most college players aren't pro quality, in any league. College isn't all Adam Morrisons. There are many more Colin Floyds. The Euroleague has a lot of fringe NBA players, who were just below NBA level. They're all also closer to their prime, on average, than college players. Combined, it means that the competition is tougher than the NCAA.



> they're older, and not really good prospects of his age group, and most of them probably wouldn't make a dent in the NBA. So I'd *hope* he plays better against them


They aren't good prospects due to their age, but they're better _players_ than 99% of college players. So Bargnani is playing well against tougher, better players than any of the college prospects have faced. That's good stuff.


----------



## Dan

while it's said that the players in the european leagues are fringe NBA players, most of them who ARE, are older and not really that good. And I doubt thats as big of a % of the league as it's being implied.

So they're basically on par with the fringe (younger) nba players in college.

and it's not like bargani is putting up #'s against NBA talent, any more than Morrison is.

if he's the "best young" guy in his league, and he's putting up 15 ppg (which irrc, he doesn't) thats not really saying much, EVEN if you buy into the " different game" line.

and can we stop with the 'against high schoolers' stuff? It's not like Morrison ( or gay, or aldrdge, or whoever) is doing their stuff against high schoolers.


----------



## ThatBlazerGuy

Its pretty much undebatable that the Euroleague is better than NCAA basketball. For example, take the best team in college basketball and put them up against the best team in the Euroleague and they will get smashed. Examples...

Benetton vs. Toronto Raptors- Raptors win by 3, and Benetton isnt even a great Euroleague team. Anyone think that the Huskies or Gators could play like that against Toronto, I for one dont. 

And, are we forgettin the pummelling team USA took? European leagues are easily the 2nd best in the world.


----------



## Dan

ThatBlazerGuy said:


> Its pretty much undebatable that the Euroleague is better than NCAA basketball. For example, take the best team in college basketball and put them up against the best team in the Euroleague and they will get smashed. Examples...
> 
> Benetton vs. Toronto Raptors- Raptors win by 3, and Benetton isnt even a great Euroleague team. Anyone think that the Huskies or Gators could play like that against Toronto, I for one dont.
> 
> And, are we forgettin the pummelling team USA took? European leagues are easily the 2nd best in the world.


you put together a team that had a year together (in some cases, years) and the NBA team would smoke any european team.

you put together a team that had very little time to get to know each others games, don't have any cohesiveness, and pit them against teams that have had long periods of time together, they'll probably lose 90% of the time.


comparing how they played against the raptors/nba, is faulty. because there are several hundred college teams. If you took out say...75% of the teams, and only the best of the best could play in college ball, you'd have a different story.

but even IF their league is the '2nd best', the difference between it at the NBA is at such a much wider gap than the gap between them and college.


----------



## Minstrel

SMiLE said:


> So they're basically on par with the fringe (younger) nba players in college.


Possibly, but the fringe NBA players in college are a tiny minority. And they're still far from their prime. 



> and it's not like bargani is putting up #'s against NBA talent, any more than Morrison is.


I never said he was playing NBA talent. He's played against _better_ players than Morrison has. Neither has played against NBA talent.



> if he's the "best young" guy in his league, and he's putting up 15 ppg (which irrc, he doesn't) thats not really saying much, EVEN if you buy into the " different game" line.


It's saying quite a lot in a league where preference is given to seniority. Bargnani almost surely could put up more points as the first option, but teams in that league don't make 19- and 20-year olds the first option, even if they're talented enough to be.



> and can we stop with the 'against high schoolers' stuff? It's not like Morrison ( or gay, or aldrdge, or whoever) is doing their stuff against high schoolers.


What "against high schoolers" stuff are you referring to?


----------



## Samuel

SMiLE said:


> jesus christ, you'd think this kid will come in here and average 25 ppg the way people talk about him.


Hap, just curious as to where you stand here: What pick do you think is appropriate for Bargnani, and why? 

Is he a top 10 prospect, or a top 30 project? 

You seem to be very argumentative about this. Are you worried that Pritchard and Nash are going to be similarly blown away by Bargnani without looking into it?

The fact is, Prichard/Nash have both seen every second of video that Benneton Treviso has. They've probably spoken to him, and will see him workout against other guys in person. 

So why not sip a little kool aid on each one of these draft picks? Heated pragmatism about Bargnani vs. Morrison or Morrison vs. Aldridge or Aldridge vs. Gay won't lead to any sort of conclusion because for every top 5er this year, there's a huge question mark. 










Think of yourself as a fan at the basketball buffet table.


----------



## Minstrel

SMiLE said:


> but even IF their league is the '2nd best', the difference between it at the NBA is at such a much wider gap than the gap between them and college.


I don't know whether that's true, but it's irrelevant to the point I've been making, which is that Bargnani has been playing well against better competition than Morrison. It's not meant to _prove_ Bargnani is better, but it's a point in his favour. The better the competition a prospect faces, the more sense of security there is in his abilities.


----------



## zagsfan20

> The average college player is far smaller and less athletic than the average NBA player. I wouldn't expect his shot to be blocked much in college. I would expect (I don't know for a fact, this is all speculation) that he'll have a lot of shots smothered (that is, he won't even attempt them because he doesn't have the space) in the NBA.


and what makes you think that Morrison's shot is more blockable than any other SF prospect that has entered the draft?...

I watched every single Gonzaga game this year (and the years past) and I've only seen him get blocked 2-3 times...

His high release, long arms (he has 7'0" wing span) and creative ways to get open for his shot is better than a player I've seen in a long time at the college level..


----------



## zagsfan20

ThatBlazerGuy said:


> I will put it this way. *If we take Adam Morrison from last year(because Andrea is more than a year younger than Adam) and put him in the Euro league, I have no doubt that his numbers would not be as good as Andrea. *As for him being overhyped because he is a euro and not a college player, can you show me one seven foot tall college player that has the shot Andrea has along with good rebounding and blocking skills. Answer, their is no one near his skill set in NCAA.


How can you prove that?...

Thats simply conjecture.


----------



## Samuel

zagsfan20 said:


> How can you prove that?...
> 
> Thats simply conjecture.


no basketball, sherlock.


----------



## zagsfan20

Samuel said:


> no basketball, sherlock.


huh?


----------



## Dan

I'd say they're all basically tied for the picks, and that none of them stands out enough to justify declaring them the top pick or not.



Samuel said:


> Hap, just curious as to where you stand here: What pick do you think is appropriate for Bargnani, and why?
> 
> Is he a top 10 prospect, or a top 30 project?
> 
> You seem to be very argumentative about this. Are you worried that Pritchard and Nash are going to be similarly blown away by Bargnani without looking into it?
> 
> The fact is, Prichard/Nash have both seen every second of video that Benneton Treviso has. They've probably spoken to him, and will see him workout against other guys in person.
> 
> So why not sip a little kool aid on each one of these draft picks? Heated pragmatism about Bargnani vs. Morrison or Morrison vs. Aldridge or Aldridge vs. Gay won't lead to any sort of conclusion because for every top 5er this year, there's a huge question mark.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Think of yourself as a fan at the basketball buffet table.


----------



## Minstrel

zagsfan20 said:


> and what makes you think that Morrison's shot is more blockable than any other SF prospect that has entered the draft?...


I didn't say it was. I was contrasting him to Bargnani, since Hap asked what difference four inches makes. Morrison doesn't have the size or athleticism that Bargnani does, so he's not likely to burn perimeter defenders off the dribble or be able to shoot over tough defense any better than most small forwards. Bargnani, with an extra four inches, likely will be able to.


----------



## ThatBlazerGuy

I cant prove it, im just judging the fact that Andrea is putting up similar numbers this year that Adam put up his junior year, and against much better compititon. Therefore, I came to a hypothesis that Adam would not be as good.


----------



## Minstrel

zagsfan20 said:


> huh?


 He's saying that's obvious. Projecting prospects is all conjecture, for fans.


----------



## zagsfan20

ThatBlazerGuy said:


> I cant prove it, im just judging the fact that Andrea is putting up similar numbers this year that Adam put up his junior year, and against much better compititon. Therefore, I came to a hypothesis that Adam would not be as good.


Morrison averaged 19 and 5 and half rebounds his junior year, Bargnani is averaging 10.6 ppg and 3 rebounds a game...

I wouldn't say they're too similar number-wise.


----------



## zagsfan20

zagsfan20 said:


> Show me 1 time, just 1 time where I have said I thought people were racist if they didn't think Morrison was the best prospect in the draft...


Still waiting...


----------



## CanJohno

zagsfan20 said:


> Still waiting...


O RLY?  You might want to check post #'s 83 (Smile "showing you" that you'd said it) and 84 (you acknowledging the fact that he "showed" you where you'd said it)--as well as #'s 85 and 86, while you're at it.

:cheers:


----------



## italianBBlover

Just some notes about Euroleague and the top european leagues (Italy, Spain, Greece, Russia)

1 
here played european players which were and are even stars in NBA (Gasol, Stojakovic, Okur, Kirilenko, Ginobili, Sabonis etc)

2 
we have here good or very good american players, which for several reasons can't fit very well in NBA (little undersized or other things) or or which could also play well with one chance in the right team; Anthony Parker, Maceo Baston, Alphonso Ford (r.i.p.), Charles Smith, Antonio Granger etc

3 
we had even former NBA players which simply "su*ked" like Cal Bowdler, Rusty LaRue, Michael Olowokandi, Melvin Sanders, Anthony Goldwire etc (if those played and play in NBA, Bargnani will literally eat the league .......) 

4 
in the top euroleagues played and play also some very good NBA players, and above all in the past even some stars: Dominique Wilkins, Bob McAdoo, George Gervin, Michael Cooper, Abur-Rauf, Spud Webb, Joe Barry Carrol, Brad Miller, Joe "Jellybean" Bryant, Michael Ray Richardson are the first to come in my mind.

5
Some actual euro guys which play quite well in NBA (Zaza Pachulia, Primoz Brezec etc) here were almost scrubs ... 
How the *** can Brezec post 16/8 almost every night ? Jeez ...


Just one thing about Charles Smith: probably the Blazers weren't the right system of play for him, because he's very good and in fact when he played for the Spurs back in 2001 he was the 6th man !


----------



## Toxicity

zagsfan20 said:


> Morrison averaged 19 and 5 and half rebounds his junior year, Bargnani is averaging 10.6 ppg and 3 rebounds a game...
> 
> I wouldn't say they're too similar number-wise.


Adam Morrison stats:

19.0 ppg, 5.5 rpg in 34.2 mpg

Andrea Bargnani stats:

Euroleague - 10.9 ppg, 4.1 rpg in 21 mpg
Italian league - 11.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg in 21.7 mpg

PT is different so we have to look at the stats per 40 minutes (both NCAA and Euro Leagues have that PT):

Adam Morrisom stats per 40 minutes:

22.2 ppg and 6.4 rpg

Andrea Bargnani stats per 40 minutes:

Euroleague - 20.8 ppg and 7.8 rpg
Italian league - 21.4 ppg and 10.1 rpg

Above all we have to consider Andrea is just the 3rd offensive option of Benetton Treviso (sometimes the 2nd) while Adam was the 1st offensive option of Gonzaga University...

In the end stats don't lie... :biggrin:


----------



## italianBBlover

Toxicity said:


> Adam Morrison stats:
> 
> 19.0 ppg, 5.5 rpg in 34.2 mpg
> 
> Andrea Bargnani stats:
> 
> Euroleague - 10.9 ppg, 4.1 rpg in 21 mpg
> Italian league - 11.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg in 21.7 mpg
> 
> PT is different so we have to look at the stats per 40 minutes (both NCAA and Euro Leagues have that PT):
> 
> Adam Morrisom stats per 40 minutes:
> 
> 22.2 ppg and 6.4 rpg
> 
> Andrea Bargnani stats per 40 minutes:
> 
> Euroleague - 20.8 ppg and 7.8 rpg
> Italian league - 21.4 ppg and 10.1 rpg
> 
> Above all we have to consider Andrea is just the 3rd offensive option of Benetton Treviso (sometimes the 2nd) while Adam was the 1st offensive option of Gonzaga University...
> 
> In the end stats don't lie... :biggrin:


 :makeadeal :worship:


----------



## Utherhimo

yeah bargnani would be very nice for the blazers


----------



## Reep

Toxicity said:


> Adam Morrisom stats per 40 minutes:
> 
> 22.2 ppg and 6.4 rpg
> 
> Andrea Bargnani stats per 40 minutes:
> 
> Euroleague - 20.8 ppg and 7.8 rpg
> Italian league - 21.4 ppg and 10.1 rpg
> 
> Above all we have to consider Andrea is just the 3rd offensive option of Benetton Treviso (sometimes the 2nd) while Adam was the 1st offensive option of Gonzaga University...
> 
> In the end stats don't lie... :biggrin:


Good work Toxicity. There is no guarantee that Bargnani would actually get those numbers if he had 40 minutes, but it is certainly a more accurate comparison. I still think Morrison is/will be a better scorer than Bargnani, but Bargnani has other things to contribute that I like. Bargnani and Zach would fit well together on the front line, at least for limited minutes. I'm still not quite sure what position Bargnani will play, given he has elements of 3-5 in his game.


----------



## chromekilla

Reep said:


> Good work Toxicity. There is no guarantee that Bargnani would actually get those numbers if he had 40 minutes, but it is certainly a more accurate comparison. I still think Morrison is/will be a better scorer than Bargnani, but Bargnani has other things to contribute that I like. Bargnani and Zach would fit well together on the front line, at least for limited minutes. I'm still not quite sure what position Bargnani will play, given he has elements of 3-5 in his game.


Hope fully zach wont be here.Can someone give me his stats for this season i know they were posted but i want to see for my self.From the page i just looked at he didnt impress me and i wanted to see if those stats i say were wrong or compared on a differnt minute scale.


----------



## Fork

zagsfan20 said:


> Still waiting...





zagsfan20 said:


> People who [criticize Morrison] have some kind of subconscious bigotry going on in there mind....(he is white, therefore he has no upside)....LAME....


Done waiting now?


----------



## Reep

Fork said:


> Done waiting now?



Oooh, the smoking gun.


----------



## Kmurph

> against european pro's, which is different than NBA pros.
> again, look at Charles Smith (depite being much older). he was, at best, a scrub..
> on a HORRIBLE team here.


Why is everyone conveniently forgetting an important fact alluded to in this post?

Was not Charles Smith the leading scorer in euroleague last year? 

I do not buy that euroleague competition is APPRECIABLY better than the college one bit....

Not when you throw names of Trajan Langdon, Cal Bowdler and Maceo Baston out there..

Not one of these guys is in the NBA for a good reason, they aren't good enough....This is reality people...

I think Bargnani is a very intriguing player...he has great size and mobility to go with it....But Dirk Nowitzki? I think that is a stretch...

Believe me, if POR drafts him I hope he does become the next "Dirk", but chances are he more resembles a Radmonovic....or at best a Rashard Lewis type of player, which wouldn't be a bad thing mind you (Lewis at least...Radman I could do w\o)...

Worst case? Skita, Nachbar, Lampe, Pavlovic, Carbacrapka (man he sucks).....The list of europeans clinging onto the ends of NBA benches gets longer every year....

Maybe Bargnani will be the guy who breaks through ala Dirk & Gasol....But you cannot deny that the risk is VERY real that he won't....

Moreso than Morrison\Gay? That is another debate entirely....But I would lean towards the known over the unknown (Bargnani)...


----------



## Minstrel

Kmurph said:


> I do not buy that euroleague competition is APPRECIABLY better than the college one bit....
> 
> Not when you throw names of Trajan Langdon, Cal Bowdler and Maceo Baston out there..
> 
> Not one of these guys is in the NBA for a good reason, they aren't good enough....This is reality people...


How does that show that the Euroleague isn't tougher than college? 99% of college players aren't nearly good enough to play in the NBA either.

All those players you mentioned were college *stars*. That is, they were all better than the vast majority of college players. And now they're in their prime, which isn't good enough to play in the NBA but better than virtually any college player. Some of those college players will become better than Langdon, Bowdler, etc, as they improve, but almost none of them are better now than former college stars who are now in their prime.

All you've shown is that the Euroleague is clearly inferior to the NBA, which no one disputed. The fact that it has plenty of former college stars only means that it's better than the NCAA, which has a ton of players who aren't capable of making it in any pro league. And even the best players in college are far from their primes.



> Maybe Bargnani will be the guy who breaks through ala Dirk & Gasol....But you cannot deny that the risk is VERY real that he won't....


True of every single prospect that enters the NBA. Do we need to go through the incredibly long list of college stars that failed at the NBA level? This isn't a point that applies to Bargnani any more than anyone else in the draft. "Maybe Morrison will be the guy who breaks through ala Wade & Carter...But you cannot deny that the risk is VERY real that he won't..."



> Moreso than Morrison\Gay? That is another debate entirely....But I would lean towards the known over the unknown (Bargnani)...


I would say Bargnani is the most "known" quantity. He's the one playing well against the stronger competition. The better the competition a player is playing against, the more secure one can feel in a player's abilities.

Morrison/Gay are as unknown as any college prospect. Will they be the next Grant Hill or the next Trajan Langdon?


----------



## italianBBlover

For the records: as I said in my precedent post, Cal Bowdler simply SUCKED here and I still can't understand how he has managed to play in NBA ...

Trajan Langdon is a pretty good SG-SF in Europe, but there are better players than him at the 2-3.
Same with Baston: he's very good, but hes's not the best PF in Europe.

I repeat: there are american players that played in NBA or were very good college players, which in Europe/Italy they were/are almost scrubs or anyway nothing of special; just think about Rusty LaRue, Bowdler, Goldwire, Ansu Sesay, AJ Guyton, Ric Brunson (man ... he was a scrub even in the 2nd division !) ...


----------



## B_&_B

I didnt read this entire thread, so this may have already been posted... but rumor from an NBA scout is that Bargnani will be given an award for being the most outstanding young player in the Euro League.


----------



## mediocre man

How bout this off season? 

Randolph, Ratliff, Outlaw, #30, #31 and our pick next year 

for 

Pierce, Lafrentz

Draft Bargnani 

Joel
Bargnani
Pierce/Webster
Webster/Pierce
Telfair

With 

Lafrentz
Khryapa
Jack
Skinner 

Etal off the bench


Now I know you will all hate this deal because the Blazers actually have to give something of value up for an all star, but I think it's fair


----------



## B_&_B

I like that deal... Mr. Happy Fat guy with nacho's!


----------



## Blazer Maven

mediocre man said:


> How bout this off season?
> 
> Randolph, Ratliff, Outlaw, #30, #31 and our pick next year
> 
> for
> 
> Pierce, Lafrentz
> 
> Draft Bargnani
> 
> Joel
> Bargnani
> Pierce/Webster
> Webster/Pierce
> Telfair
> 
> With
> 
> Lafrentz
> Khryapa
> Jack
> Skinner
> 
> Etal off the bench
> 
> 
> Now I know you will all hate this deal because the Blazers actually have to give something of value up for an all star, but I think it's fair


Great trade. Except Pierce will likely go to the Clips for Maggette and Livingston this offseason, IMHO.


----------



## Kmurph

Minstrel - 

I don't think Bargnani's modest stats against some former college players who couldn't cut it\make it the NBA...suddenly vaults him above Morrison\Gay for example...

I think the euroleague is as good...if slightly better than college bball in general, but not better to the extent implied in this and other threads...

and I disagree that Bargnani is the more "well known" commodity or that he has a better chance to "break through" than either Morrison\Gay...he has as many or more question marks about him than the college players projected in the top 5 do..

Also, the history of european "can't miss" players has not been good, and IMO if a team is going to take a risk, they would be better served going with either Morrison or Gay...


----------



## Reep

Blazer Maven said:


> Great trade. Except Pierce will likely go to the Clips for Maggette and Livingston this offseason, IMHO.


Oooh, I don't know about that one. Living down here in Clipper land I would be shocked if they traded away Livingston. They have him written in as the cornerstone of the franchise for years to come, and he has the tools to pull that off. Livingston will be a Clipper for a long time. If the Clips are after Pierce, Livingston won't be part of the deal.


----------



## Sambonius

I think I was the first on the Bargnani bandwagon months ago, he would be the guy I draft if given the opportunity. His first step is not to be ****ed with and his shot is money. Not only that, but the guy shows that he wants to play defense and can block shots pretty well. Bargnani with our pick. Yais.


----------



## Minstrel

Kmurph said:


> Minstrel -
> 
> I don't think Bargnani's modest stats against some former college players who couldn't cut it\make it the NBA...suddenly vaults him above Morrison\Gay for example...


I think his good performance against superior competition, along with all his demonstrated skills, vault him above all the other prospects. I don't think he's can't-miss, but the overall package seems like the best.



> and I disagree that Bargnani is the more "well known" commodity or that he has a better chance to "break through" than either Morrison\Gay...he has as many or more question marks about him than the college players projected in the top 5 do..


I think he has fewer. Defense. That's it. Morrison and Gay, at minimum, also have the same question mark. In addition, Morrison lacks athleticism or skills beyond scoring and Gay lacks consistency.



> Also, the history of european "can't miss" players has not been good, and IMO if a team is going to take a risk, they would be better served going with either Morrison or Gay...


The history of "can't miss" players from Europe is the same as "can't miss" players from college: They usually miss. Almost nobody is a can't-miss. In the last decade, the only real can't-miss out of college that didn't miss was Tim Duncan. The only real can't-miss out of Europe that didn't miss was Dirk Nowitzki. And that's with _many_ more college prospects than European prospects.

No one is calling Bargnani "can't miss." But Morrison and Gay (and Aldridge and Thomas) are also far from that status. Overall, I think Bargnani is a safer pick because he can do a lot of things, has great athleticism, great size and has played against high-quality competition. Those are all the indicators you look for in terms of evaluating upside potential.


----------



## Reep

Minstrel said:


> The history of "can't miss" players from Europe is the same as "can't miss" players from college: They usually miss. Almost nobody is a can't-miss. In the last decade, the only real can't-miss out of college that didn't miss was Tim Duncan. The only real can't-miss out of Europe that didn't miss was Dirk Nowitzki. And that's with _many_ more college prospects than European prospects.


I might add Carmelo to the list of can't miss out of college (but it is debateable) but that still makes a list of two in ten years. Pretty weak. Most of the Euros who have failed were unproven in high level competition too (Tsika and Darko). But Bargnani is more proven against such competition.


----------



## Minstrel

Reep said:


> I might add Carmelo to the list of can't miss out of college (but it is debateable) but that still makes a list of two in ten years. Pretty weak. Most of the Euros who have failed were unproven in high level competition too (Tsika and Darko). But Bargnani is more proven against such competition.


I considered Melo, but he was pretty can't-miss out of high school. He chose to get a year of college experience, first, but he would have been a top pick out of high school, too.

And good point about other top European prospects having been unproven against that competition. That's a key difference for Bargnani.


----------



## zagsfan20

Toxicity said:


> Adam Morrison stats:
> 
> 19.0 ppg, 5.5 rpg in 34.2 mpg
> 
> Andrea Bargnani stats:
> 
> Euroleague - 10.9 ppg, 4.1 rpg in 21 mpg
> Italian league - 11.6 ppg, 5.5 rpg in 21.7 mpg
> 
> PT is different so we have to look at the stats per 40 minutes (both NCAA and Euro Leagues have that PT):
> 
> Adam Morrisom stats per 40 minutes:
> 
> 22.2 ppg and 6.4 rpg
> 
> Andrea Bargnani stats per 40 minutes:
> 
> Euroleague - 20.8 ppg and 7.8 rpg
> Italian league - 21.4 ppg and 10.1 rpg
> 
> Above all we have to consider Andrea is just the 3rd offensive option of Benetton Treviso (sometimes the 2nd) while Adam was the 1st offensive option of Gonzaga University...
> 
> In the end stats don't lie... :biggrin:


His Junior year Morrison wasn't the first option on offense, most the time they looked to feed the ball down to their bigs (Turiaf and Batista)..


----------



## zagsfan20

Fork said:


> Done waiting now?


Look at the word subconscious and tell me what that means to you...or better yet look it up in the dictionary..


----------



## zagsfan20

mediocre man said:


> How bout this off season?
> 
> Randolph, Ratliff, Outlaw, #30, #31 and our pick next year
> 
> for
> 
> Pierce, Lafrentz
> 
> Draft Bargnani
> 
> Joel
> Bargnani
> Pierce/Webster
> Webster/Pierce
> Telfair
> 
> With
> 
> Lafrentz
> Khryapa
> Jack
> Skinner
> 
> Etal off the bench
> 
> 
> Now I know you will all hate this deal because the Blazers actually have to give something of value up for an all star, but I think it's fair



What would the point of that be for the Celtics? 

I thought they have their future invested in Jefferson...


----------



## chromekilla

mediocre man said:


> How bout this off season?
> 
> Randolph, Ratliff, Outlaw, #30, #31 and our pick next year
> 
> for
> 
> Pierce, Lafrentz
> 
> Draft Bargnani
> 
> Joel
> Bargnani
> Pierce/Webster
> Webster/Pierce
> Telfair
> 
> With
> 
> Lafrentz
> Khryapa
> Jack
> Skinner
> 
> Etal off the bench
> 
> 
> Now I know you will all hate this deal because the Blazers actually have to give something of value up for an all star, but I think it's fair


Meh nash couldnt get the deal done when the wanted to trade pp they want to keep him now.


----------



## Minstrel

zagsfan20 said:


> Look at the word subconscious and tell me what that means to you...or better yet look it up in the dictionary..


Zuh?


----------



## CanJohno

zagsfan20 said:


> His Junior year Morrison wasn't the first option on offense, most the time they looked to feed the ball down to their bigs (Turiaf and Batista)..


This _was_ Morrison's "junior year"--last year he was a *sophomore*.


----------



## Toxicity

zagsfan20 said:


> His Junior year Morrison wasn't the first option on offense, most the time they looked to feed the ball down to their bigs (Turiaf and Batista)..


1st or 2nd option isn't so important... he was clearly the go-to-guy of the team in key moments of the game (and i suppose the 1st scorer)... he was one of the 2-3 most important players in the team and had a high status and was a clear starter. 

Bargnani in the beginning of this season was "only" a talented young guy... a 6th or 7th man from the bench... but game after game he earned respect from older teammates and from the coach as well as PT and status in the Benetton... now he's a starter (for 2 months, not more) but still not the 1st or 2nd offensive option because of his age. So Andrea has to battle against that, not only with his opponents...

In the ends his stats are impressive, considering ALL, while i probably can't say the same about Morrison (in his sophomore year; this year had an impressive season)...


----------



## zagsfan20

CanJohno said:


> This _was_ Morrison's "junior year"--last year he was a *sophomore*.


oh whoops, toxicity said junior year so I got a little confused...


----------



## zagsfan20

I like Bargnani from what I've seen of him and heard about him...He would be at the top of my list if we didn't draft Morrison...

I'm just not convinced that he'd be a better player than Morrison....but my bias does play a wee bit of a role in that...


----------



## Toxicity

zagsfan20 said:


> Morrison averaged 19 and 5 and half rebounds his *junior year*, Bargnani is averaging 10.6 ppg and 3 rebounds a game...
> 
> I wouldn't say they're too similar number-wise.


zagsfan20, i never said junior year (re-read previous posts)... you said that!!!


----------



## zagsfan20

Yep, you're correct...

I was confused...


----------



## ThatBlazerGuy

I think this draft comes down to 2 players, Andrea and Adam. Both are similar, yet very different at the same time. Their my top 2, over LaMarcus and TT. Unless, of course, Aldridge comes into workouts and proves he is passionate about playing ball. Then their are 3 options IMO


----------



## zagsfan20

Bargnani has until tonight to make his decision to go pro....Its going to be interesting waiting to see if he makes an announcement, as of yet, him and Splitter both haven't announced that they're entering....

If he doesn't announce I think it totally changes the landscape of the draft and assures that Morrison is the Blazers guy..


----------



## italianBBlover

Andrea said "YES"

http://www.legabasket.it/

:banana:


----------



## Utherhimo

gee wish it was in english but i get the idea or gisht of the article! It great news for us blazer fans. 

I want to hear him talk!


----------



## Toxicity

Utherhimo said:


> gee wish it was in english but i get the idea or gisht of the article! It great news for us blazer fans.
> 
> I want to hear him talk!


Andrea doesn't want to talk about the draft. Now he's focused only on his team (Benetton Treviso) and the upcoming italian playoffs... he prefers facts to words. :clap:


----------



## Fork

He's even got a nickname already...Andrea "Mago" Bargnani

That's "The Wizard" for those of you who don't speak Italian.


----------



## Dan

Fork said:


> He's even got a nickname already...Andrea "Mago" Bargnani
> 
> That's "The Wizard" for those of you who don't speak Italian.


----------



## Toxicity

Fork said:


> He's even got a nickname already...Andrea "Mago" Bargnani
> 
> That's "The Wizard" for those of you who don't speak Italian.


Somebody translates "Mago" with "Magician"... but as italian i don't know the true difference between magician and wizard...


----------



## Minstrel

Toxicity said:


> Somebody translates "Mago" with "Magician"... but as italian i don't know the true difference between magician and wizard...


Well, is he more like David Copperfield or Gandalf?


----------



## Utherhimo

magi! magicman bargnani the italian Hudini!


----------



## italianBBlover

Minstrel said:


> Well, is he more like David Copperfield or Gandalf?


Yea, magician is more like Houdini or David Copperfield (for Toxi: un mago, come Silvan) , while "wizard" is more like Gandalf or Merlin (4 Toxi: uno stregone o un mago all'antica per intenderci, Gandalf o Merlino)

:biggrin:


----------



## Toxicity

italianBBlover said:


> Yea, magician is more like Houdini or David Copperfield (for Toxi: un mago, come Silvan) , while "wizard" is more like Gandalf or Merlin (4 Toxi: uno stregone o un mago all'antica per intenderci, Gandalf o Merlino)
> 
> :biggrin:


Now i understand, thanks. (4 italianBBlover: quindi prestigiatore o mago, giusto?)


----------



## italianBBlover

Toxicity said:


> Now i understand, thanks. (4 italianBBlover: quindi prestigiatore o mago, giusto?)



Ecco, bravo


----------



## handclap problematic

Toxicity said:


> Now i understand, thanks. (4 italianBBlover: quindi prestigiatore o mago, giusto?)




Um yeah.... Umberto Eco?
I have no idea.

Prunetang


----------



## Toxicity

italianBBlover said:


> Ecco, bravo


Ok ma in conclusione il Mago è un mago o un prestigiatore?  :biggrin:


----------



## italianBBlover

Toxicity said:


> Ok ma in conclusione il Mago è un mago o un prestigiatore?  :biggrin:


Both :banana:


----------



## Toxicity

A short interview to Andrea Bargnani after he received the Rising Star Award (by Arvydas Sabonis!!!):

http://www.euroleague.net (scroll down a little bit)

:banana:


----------



## BBert

Please excuse me, I'm a little bit slow on the uptake this morning. Is Bargnani "The Magician" or "The Wizard?"

As long as he's also "The Blazer", it's all good.


----------



## SheedSoNasty

¿Cuál es la diferencia entre "magician" y "wizard"?


----------



## Toxicity

A little mix on Andrea by me:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/wqri60

:cheers:


----------



## meru

Okay, I'm convinced: now we HAVE to draft the guy.


----------



## Dan

meru said:


> Okay, I'm convinced: now we HAVE to draft the guy.


why? because Sabonis handed him an award? Lawdy dah.

This is almost as bad as when people just came up with reasons why we should draft Gerald Green and just posted coincidental things that really had not bearing on how good of a player he is. Big deal, Sabonis handed him an award..unless that award somehow has some kind of secert powers that hold Sabonis's game in it, and it's absorbed by Bargani, it means nothing.


----------



## meru

SMiLE said:


> why? because Sabonis handed him an award? Lawdy dah.


That's Sabonis? Oh. I thought it was Puddy from Seinfeld. Never mind then.



> Big deal, Sabonis handed him an award..unless that award somehow has some kind of secert powers that hold Sabonis's game in it, and it's absorbed by Bargani, it means nothing.


Depends - how much Vodka would it hold?


----------



## Dan

meru said:


> That's Sabonis? Oh. I thought it was Puddy from Seinfeld. Never mind then.


puddy from seinfeld? I never watched that show, so I don't get the reference.


> Depends - how much Vodka would it hold?


maybe it's a vodka bottle and he's trying to get it back for his wife.


----------



## Blazer Ringbearer

SMiLE said:


> why? because Sabonis handed him an award? Lawdy dah.
> 
> This is almost as bad as when people just came up with reasons why we should draft Gerald Green and just posted coincidental things that really had not bearing on how good of a player he is. Big deal, Sabonis handed him an award..unless that award somehow has some kind of secert powers that hold Sabonis's game in it, and it's absorbed by Bargani, it means nothing.


SMILE! C'mon man, raise those corners of your mouth, ever so slightly... you can do it!

This is supposed to be fun. I'm worried about you, you always sound like you're having a miserable time here...


----------



## Oldmangrouch

SMiLE said:


> why? because Sabonis handed him an award? Lawdy dah.
> 
> This is almost as bad as when people just came up with reasons why we should draft Gerald Green and just posted coincidental things that really had not bearing on how good of a player he is. Big deal, Sabonis handed him an award..unless that award somehow has some kind of secert powers that hold Sabonis's game in it, and it's absorbed by Bargani, it means nothing.



Ooooo! Someone is being grumpy today. 

Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed - or the side of the wrong bed? :bsmile:


----------



## SheedSoNasty

This is how you turn that upside down SMiLE right side up again...

The Portland Trail Blazers should draft Adam Morrison.

There, just like new!


----------



## italianBBlover

This evening

Bargnani
29 minutes
18 points
8 rebounds
2 steals
1 block
2 assist


----------



## Sambonius

italianBBlover said:


> This evening
> 
> Bargnani
> 29 minutes
> 18 points
> 8 rebounds
> 2 steals
> 1 block
> 2 assist


Awesome, how about field goals made and attempted and free throws? I'd like to know, thanks.


----------



## zagsfan20

italianBBlover said:


> This evening
> 
> Bargnani
> 29 minutes
> 18 points
> 8 rebounds
> 2 steals
> 1 block
> 2 assist


Wow, he had 18 points and 8 rebounds....He's officially the #1 pick...

:angel:


----------



## italianBBlover

zagsfan20 said:


> Wow, he had 18 points and 8 rebounds....He's officially the #1 pick...
> 
> :angel:


Sorry, you're right.

Putting up 28 ppg being the first gunner of your team, playing 40 mpg and against kid of 20 years, it's harder to put up 18 points and 8 rebounds playing 29 minutes in a team with 25y/30y old pro players like Nicholas, Goree, Zizis, Siskauskas, Soragna etc and against dudes of that age (some formerly NBA too) ...


----------



## italianBBlover

Sambonius said:


> Awesome, how about field goals made and attempted and free throws? I'd like to know, thanks.


3-8 from 2
4-6 from 3


More info about the today's game: pity Andrea had fouls problems; in fact he had already the 4th foul at the start of the second half and sat out the whole 3/4.

Without that he would have had for sure a better game ( already 11 points and 4-5 rebounds in the 2nd quarter)


----------



## Minstrel

Thanks for the info, italianBBlover.


----------



## Toxicity

italianBBlover said:


> Sorry, you're right.
> 
> Putting up 28 ppg being the first gunner of your team, playing 40 mpg and against kid of 20 years, it's harder to put up 18 points and 8 rebounds playing 29 minutes in a team with 25y/30y old pro players like Nicholas, Goree, Zizis, Siskauskas, Soragna etc and against dudes of that age (some formerly NBA too) ...


You forget "playing in a powerhouse like Gonzaga University"... :biggrin:


----------



## mediocre man

italianBBlover said:


> Sorry, you're right.
> 
> Putting up 28 ppg being the first gunner of your team, playing 40 mpg and against kid of 20 years, it's harder to put up 18 points and 8 rebounds playing 29 minutes in a team with 25y/30y old pro players like Nicholas, Goree, Zizis, Siskauskas, Soragna etc and against dudes of that age (some formerly NBA too) ...



LOL I would love for the Blazers to draft bargnani over Morrison, but even I can't get behind the argument you are making because I've never heard of those players.


----------



## Tince

zagsfan20 said:


> Wow, he had 18 points and 8 rebounds....He's officially the #1 pick...
> 
> :angel:


 Someone seems a litlte on edge


----------



## Toxicity

mediocre man said:


> LOL I would love for the Blazers to draft bargnani over Morrison, but even I can't get behind the argument you are making because I've never heard of those players.


Drew Nicholas = Maryland University
Marcus Goree = West Virginia University
Nikos Zizis = starter PG of Greece NT (European Champion) 
Siskauskas = starter of Lithuania NT (a lot of medals in national competitions)
Matteo Soragna = starter of Italy NT (silver medal in 2004 Olympic Games ahead of USA... :biggrin: )


----------



## Utherhimo

yes those are very good stats i think i wonder if Nash and Pirtcrad saw him that game

how many games have been played since last sunday?


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## zagsfan20

Tince said:


> Someone seems a litlte on edge


I typed that in jest...*hint the little angel face thinger-ma-boober

But seriously I don't think we need an update after every single game he plays and continue this thread for days on end...

I'm not anti-Bargnani by any means, in fact if we weren't to draft Morrison, I'd be atleast happy with him....


----------



## Toxicity

Utherhimo said:


> yes those are very good stats i think i wonder if Nash and Pirtcrad saw him that game


Yeah, they were attending the game with other NBA GMs (Colangelo for Phoenix, Ainge for Boston, etc)...



> how many games have been played since last sunday?


Tonight's game was the first one since April the 23th (last sunday there were Euroleague F4).


----------



## Reep

zagsfan20 said:


> But seriously I don't think we need an update after every single game he plays and continue this thread for days on end...


I don't care if it is in this thread or another thread, but I do like to hear the updates on Bargnani's games. Keep up the good work italianBBlover.


----------



## BBert

I also like to read the Bargnani updates, and updates on any potential new Blazers player for that matter.

I nominate italianBBlover for president of the "Bargnani Update Club," and Toxicity for VP! :clap: 

Keep up the good work, guys.


----------



## RedHot&Rolling

zagsfan20 said:


> Wow, he had 18 points and 8 rebounds....He's officially the #1 pick...
> 
> :angel:


It was the two assists. THAT makes him the #1 pick.


----------



## SheedSoNasty

I enjoy the updates as well. If you don't like 'em, don't open the thread.


----------



## ThatBlazerGuy

Prichard was scouting his last game. Hopefully, he is hooked on this kid now. This team needs a scorer, I will say that. But we also need rebounding and defense. Andrea is at least a average rebounder, and has the potential to be a great defender. Meanwhile, that other white guy is a below average rebounder against college competition and a self-admitted defensive slouch. Also, is a full year older.


----------



## Samuel

zagsfan20 said:


> I typed that in jest...*hint the little angel face thinger-ma-boober
> 
> But seriously I don't think we need an update after every single game he plays and continue this thread for days on end...
> 
> I'm not anti-Bargnani by any means, in fact if we weren't to draft Morrison, I'd be atleast happy with him....


During a period without any Blazer news, I welcome Bargnani score updates with open arms.


----------



## Utherhimo

yup love updates i wonder what kevin thought they were in prague too

toxic and italianbb you do this for other teams' boards?


----------



## Toxicity

Utherhimo said:


> yup love updates i wonder what kevin thought they were in prague too
> 
> toxic and italianbb you do this for other teams' boards?


Yeah, in the Chicago's board sometimes... and in the "NBA draft" thread of course...

Thank you guys for supporting our updates! :cheers:


----------



## italianBBlover

We make reports with pleasure on the boards of the teams and fans which show interest for Andrea 

The most "active" one is for sure this one of the Blazers.


----------



## ThePrideOfClyde

Damn, this kid has got a radar on him. I also see some Kirilenko in him, as well as Nowitzki. No doubt about it, this kid will be a superstar.


----------



## Utherhimo

Toxic dont help the buills anymore  only us!


----------



## Toxicity

Take a look at the Euroleague Rising Star Ceremony and listen his english in this short interview:

http://www.euroleague.net/finalfour05/play.swf?clip=2006_F4_Prague/Bargnani_AET.flv

p.s.= IE recommended (my FF doesn't work)...


----------



## italianBBlover

Andrea's updates

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?t=204942&page=10


----------



## Utherhimo

oh wow 6 steals! shame on you two helping other teams 

"Bargnani this evening

27 minutes
14 points
5-9 from 2 (3 dunks)
0-2 from 3
*4 rebounds*
*6 steals*
1 turnover
5 fouls drawn

Good game with the usual 2-3 NBA-like highlights, say the recaps of the game ..."


----------



## Toxicity

This is one of the 2-3 NBA-like highlights:

http://195.56.77.209/top5/2-10657-dsl.wmv

:banana: :clap:


----------



## Kmurph

Cept in the NBA...I think he would be called for carrying the ball...

Nice move though...and more importantly (IMO) a strong finish...


----------



## Minstrel

Kmurph said:


> Cept in the NBA...I think he would be called for carrying the ball...


NBA referees don't call travelling. Ask Michael Jordan. Or LeBon James.


----------



## Dan

Minstrel said:


> NBA referees don't call travelling. Ask Michael Jordan. Or LeBon James.


Andrea Bargani isn't Michael Jordan or LeBron James.


----------



## Minstrel

SMiLE said:


> Andrea Bargani isn't Michael Jordan or LeBron James.


Nope, he's clearly better.


----------



## Kmurph

Yeah but it was pretty blatant Minstrel...

I mean the guy is 7,0 tall and the ball was up by his shoulder....

I tend to think NBA refs might call that.....


----------



## italianBBlover

Italian A1 league play off

Quarter of Final - Game 1

Benetton Treviso Vs Armani Milan (Clash of the clothes :biggrin: )

83-76

Andrea Bargnani

28 minutes
20 points
1-2 from 2
2-4 from 3
12-14 free throws
5 rebounds
1 block
2 steals
10 fouls drawn

:angel:


----------



## Reep

italianBBlover said:


> 1-2 from 2
> 2-4 from 3
> 12-14 free throws
> 5 rebounds
> 1 block
> 2 steals
> 10 fouls drawn


You have to like the number of fouls drawn and the free throw shooting. I wouldn't mind seeing more rebounds, but the free throw shooting shows this guy isn't afraid to take it inside.


----------



## Toxicity

Reep said:


> You have to like the number of fouls drawn and the free throw shooting. I wouldn't mind seeing more rebounds, but the free throw shooting shows this guy isn't afraid to take it inside.


5 rebounds in 28' is not bad if you consider the best rebounder for Benetton was Goree with 6 rebs... anyway a great game by Andrea, more in a Playoffs game! :clap:


----------



## Toxicity

Another new mix on Andrea Bargnani by me:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/ety7ka
Runtime: 3'24"
Dimension: 18 MB

Enjoy! :cheers:


----------



## Talkhard

Toxicity said:


> Another new mix on Andrea Bargnani by me:
> 
> http://www.sendspace.com/file/ety7ka
> Runtime: 3'24"
> Dimension: 18 MB
> 
> Enjoy! :cheers:


I tried to play it several times and was unable to. And what's with that confusing page? It takes you a half hour to find where to click on the download. Who designs these things anyway?


----------



## Talkhard

This may have already been discussed, but it's worth pointing out that the Euroleague games are played in 10-minute quarters. That means Bargnani's scoring average is accomplished in 8 minutes less game time than NBA players have.


----------



## Kmurph

Did I read somehwere that Randolph Childress had 23pts? in a recent euroleague game....

Yes...That Randolph Childress....


----------



## italianBBlover

Kmurph said:


> Did I read somehwere that Randolph Childress had 23pts? in a recent euroleague game....
> 
> Yes...That Randolph Childress....


Randolph Childress plays since 2001 in the italian second division (Lega2), he never played in Euroleague, I think.

This season
34mpg
14.6ppg
53% from 2
35% from 3
2.9 rebounds
4.0 tpg
2.4 spg
3.4 apg


----------



## Utherhimo

12 for 14 at the ft thats impressive and just what we need on the blazers if he scores that many we would have won many more games last year!


----------

