# The Truth TT vs KVH



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Ok....you guys have led me to look more in depth at the numbers behind the KVH vs TT trade.....

And I do admit,i like the way you KVH guys MANIPULATE numbers:yes: 

First adjustment we should make to TT numbers..Lets not count his first game when he played 9 minutes and lets certainly not count the game when he played 2 minutes vs the Suns due to the injury...I think that fair..

Exluding those two games TT is avg

18.14 points per game
6.14 rebounds per game

Now lets take a real close look at KVH....He is avg

19.1 points per game
7 rebounds per game

yes a slight edge to KVH..but lets look a little closer....Whats this????KVH is shooting .556 from beyond the arc??????The very same KVH who is a career .357 shooter...In other words as red hot as KVH is and I am taking all bets he will not continue at this clip,is only avg 8 tenths of a point better than TT????

hmmmmm...Now lets take it one step further..Lets assume that KVH reverts to shooting .357 from 3...For the Bucks he has taken 27 3's and made 15 which is .556..Assuming he reverts back to the mean and shoots .357 from the 3 he would only make 9.6 
3's per game..Thats 5 less or 15 points..That apx 2 points per game less over a 7 game period..

That would drop KVH down to 16.14 per game,which happens to be his exact career avg.....Are the rims bigger in MIL or will he revert back to shooting .357???Just asking

And for all you guys like me who are going to bring up that the Bucks are winning while the Knicks are struggling...Keep in mind that they were a plus .500 team before the trade and the knicks were sub .500...Assuming an even trade,the Bucks should outperform the Knicks......

Bring it on boys


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Exluding those two games TT is avg
> 
> 18.14 points per game
> 6.14 rebounds per game


Excluding KVH's first month, he's averaging a lot more too. I don't know why "exclusion" is even here, both players are inconsistent. TT probably moreso than VH.



> yes a slight edge to KVH..but lets look a little closer....Whats this????KVH is shooting .556 from beyond the arc??????The very same KVH who is a career .357 shooter...


This from the guy who was gaga over Marbury's 40+% on 3's when he joined the Knicks.

Van Horn btw, shot 50% on 3's in January. WITH the Knicks. He is shooting .399 on the season, and shot .373 with the Knicks. He shot .417 in February. This isn't some "hot streak" he's been shooting like this for the past 3 months. Take away November when he was hurt (.231), and how much higher is his percentage?

Further, why are you even comparing their 3's? The three is not as big a part of VH's game as you'd like to think. He takes fewer than Rasheed Wallace and Tim Thomas. Only 15 of KVH's 54 Milwuakee FGs have been 3's.

Tim Thomas is only better than VH by .003 percentagewise over his career. Too bad his game inside of 23 feet is considerably worse.

TT is shooting .481 from the field, and .385 on 3's. Aren't those due to go down too?

Tim Thomas has 0 blocks in 9 games as a Knick. VH has 3 in 8 games as a Buck. VH has 55 steals and 24 blocks on the season. TT has 45 steals and 15 blocks on the season. And you thought VH was bad at defense?



> Lets assume that KVH reverts to shooting .357 from 3...For the Bucks he has taken 27 3's and made 15 which is .556..Assuming he reverts back to the mean and shoots .357 from the 3 he would only make 9.6


Let's assume that TT reverts too. And let's assume that VH reverts to his non-November percentages. Recalculate please.




> And for all you guys like me who are going to bring up that the Bucks are winning while the Knicks are struggling...Keep in mind that they were a plus .500 team before the trade and the knicks were sub .500...


LMFAO. 

*LMAFO.*

LMFAO. 

LMFAO. 

Is this a joke? And I get accused of manipulating stats?

The Knicks a sub .500 team before the trade? How about AFTER they got Marbury? You know, when they made the "win-now" trade.

The Knicks were what, 9-4 with Marbury and VH. They are 3-7 with TT. One of those games they won, he only played 9 minutes.

Looks like someone else is *W-R-O-N-G.*

Oh but wait, scratch that. It's me who is always wrong. Therefore, your statements are still valid. You are correct in all assertations.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

KVH is the better player, plain and simple. You can take out games were TT played small minutes just because you feel it isnt fair. KVH is the better, more consistent player.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

rashidi,for of all i said you guys..i certainly didnt single you out..

secondly you are either extremely combatitive as you probably suffer from DSB..its very obvious..it can be cured....

now if its not the DSB's,its just a case of pure densness..I am sure KBF would understand when you are presenting a per GAME average,you probably should be fair and not include games where he played 2 minutes due to an injury...It significantly distorts the average...i could have easily presented the per 48 minute stat argument but that would have taken a 2 point performance in 2 minutes and computed to a 48 point performance...Would that have suited you more...

Once again you are arguing with yourself and the TRUTH is you honestly dont even know what you are saying...You tell me what 3 point % you want to plug in for KVH and i will show you the impact on his points per game average....Man,you are brutal..

and last but not least

If you arfe going to challenge someone and make statements like the one below,at least bring your A game...



> Tim Thomas is only better than VH by .003 percentagewise over his career. Too bad his game inside of 23 feet is considerably worse.


WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mr Staman,go check KVH career shooting percentage vs Tim Thomas career shooting percentage..They are EXACTLY the same..WTF are you talking about..How is KVH a better shooter..Because you dont like Isiah...Give me a break,the numbers dont lie..TT has better shooting % for his career from 3 and the exact same from inside 23..except in rashidis head..

Rashidi,take a break brother...You were obssessed with layden who we sukked under and now you have a giant erection for TT..

and the DSB's are very curable

Go look at the respective shooting %s


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

he very well be the better player..i like KVH..but the numbers are significantly closer than you think and what suprised me that throughout his career,TT has a better overall shooting %...


To be honest,if KVH and TT were so good they wouldnt have been bounced around like ping pong balls and wouldnt be labeled soft and lazy....

Their numbers are very comparable...I just find it interesting how stats can be presented depending upon which side of the arguement you present....

Rstar,are you saying we should look at stats based on projected 48 minte game????

Thats what you are implying

Unles you think its fair or sound to compare a guys ppg who plays 48 minutes vs another player 20 minutes per...

you can do it with percentages,not per game numbers..its highly skewed


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## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

Well i've got a great plan. Well actually I can't take all the credit for it though. I'd give most of it to Rashidi. My 4 year plan is this:

Year 1: 
Trade Stephon Marbury for Howard Eisley, Jahidi White, and Jake Voshkul.

Trade Tim Thomas for Keith Van Horn

Trade Nazr Mohammed for Dwayne Scintzius

Trade Allan Houston for a draft pick and Antonio McDyess

Year 2:
Have the worst record and draft a good player out of college

Give Howard Eisley 25+ shots per game.

Trade Frank Williams for a 2nd round pick.

Year 3:
Continue to stink to draft another good player.

Give Howard Eisley 8 year contract extension.

Give Shandon Anderson 10 year contract extension.

Sign Michael Doleac as starting center. 

And finally....realize that Eisley at staring PG and Anderson as your best player wont work but you can't trade the, so your stuck with lottery selections for the next 10 years or more.

Good plan if you ask me.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> TT has better shooting % for his career from 3 and the exact same from inside 23..except in rashidis head..


Are you talking about FG% or something? LMAO.

If FG% were the determining factor in how good a player's game inside of 23 feet is, then maybe the Knicks should make Othella Harrington their featured scorer. And maybe you should stop objecting to the Knicks signing Vin Baker.

In effect you are saying Nick Van Exel and Allen Iverson both have worse games than TT and KVH inside of 23 feet.

If you're going to attempt statistical manipulation, it would do you some good to actually UNDERSTAND the statistics you are trying to manipulate.

A .410 FG% by Allen Iverson is not the same as a .410 FG% by John Starks or Latrell Sprewell.

You also neglect to throw in the rebounding stats for both players, the most significant difference. Didn't some guy say rebounds = rings?

Let's take a look at a stat called "Rebound Rate".

What is Rebound Rate?

Rebound Rate is an excellent stat for measuring the rebounding ability of a player. It simply measures the percentage of missed shots a player rebounded while he was on the floor. Rebounds allowed by opponents was not kept as an NBA stat prior to the 1970-71 season so rebound rate is only available after that year. It was used by John Hollinger in his book Pro Basketball Prospectus.

Rebound Rate = (Reb*Team Minutes)/(Player Minutes*(Team Reb + Opp Reb))

Why is this useful? Because some teams (the Kings, Mavs, Suns) put up lots of shots, which increase rebound totals. If two players on different teams average 6 rpg, and one has a rebound rate of 8, and the other has a rebound rate of 10, guess whose rebounding was more valuable to their respective team? The second one. It is also very effective in that many rebounders are PFs/Cs that don't play a full games worth, so their rebound totals vary. They may only average 4 rebounds, but given a full games worth, they would probably average 10 if given the minutes. It's more accurate than a per 48 minute average. It's also useful in comparing eras, since high scores led to higher rebound totals.

Last year, KVH had a rebound rate of 13.2. TT had a rebound rate of 9.6.

Let's go over the rebound rates for a few players from last year.
Dennis Rodman 29.7 (94-95, averaged 16.8 rpg) 
Ben Wallace 23.2 (1st in league, averaged 15.4 rpg)
Wilt Chamberlain 20.2 (71-72, averaged 19.2 rpg)
Marcus Camby 19.8 (3rd in league)
Tim Duncan 19.0 (8th in league)
Kevin Garnett 18.8 (9th in league)
Patrick Ewing 18.1 (92-93, averaged 12.1 rpg)
Alonzo Mourning 17.6 (98-99, averaged 11.0 rpg)
Clarence Weatherspoon 17.4 (15th in league)
Dikembe Mutombo 17.1 (17th in league)
Nazr Mohammed 16.5
Shaquille O'Neal 16.4
Elton Brand 16.3
Yao Ming 16.3
Jermaine O'Neal 15.6
Shawn Bradley 15.2
Othella Harrington 15.1 (47th in league)
Brad Miller 14.9
Kurt Thomas 14.5 (60th in league)
Chris Webber 14.4
Kenyon Martin 14.0
Dirk Nowitzki 14.0
Keith Van Horn 13.2 (84th in league)
Karl Malone 13.0
Shawn Marion 13.0
Nene 12.7
Travis Knight 12.7
Michael Doleac 12.3 (100th in league)
Vin Baker 11.9 (had 15 during all-star years)
Michael Jordan 11.6 (88-89)
Lamar Odom 11.1
Paul Pierce 10.6
Richard Jefferson 10.3
Lee Nailon 10.1
Antoine Walker 9.9 (has declined every year, likely due to him shooting more 3's every year)
Jason Kidd 9.7
Tim Thomas 9.6
Tracy McGrady 9.5 (career low, usually has 11)
Kobe Bryant 9.3 (career high, usually has 8)
Cezery Trybanski 9.1
Ron Artest 8.8
Jamal Mashburn 8.7
Steve Francis 8.6
Shandon Anderson 8.6
Penny Hardaway 8.2
DerMarr Johnson 8.2 (01-02)
Charlie Ward 7.1
Moochie Norris 6.6
Frank Williams 6.3
Latrell Sprewell 5.9
Jalen Rose 5.8
John Stockton 5.4
Howard Eisley 4.9
Stephon Marbury 4.6
Allan Houston 4.4
Lavor Postell 2.4

I'm sure those numbers can speak for themselves as it pertains to Tim Thomas' rebounding ability. Isn't he supposed to be 6'10? He rebounds like he's 4 inches shorter.

For what it's worth...

Nazr Mohammed 16.5
Tim Thomas 9.6

Keith Van Horn 13.2
Michael Doleac 12.3

I don't know if this deal is really helping the rebounding, considering...

Dikembe Mutombo 17.1

...is now riding the bench.

Mutombo, KT, KVH is definitely a better rebounding unit than Nazr, KT, TT.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

Rashidi, maybe you should compare the rebounding numbers of small forwards in the league today, not the greatest players of all time. Those numbers show that Tim is a good rebounder for his position. Not many small forwards grab boards like Van Horn does....mainly cause hes a POWER FORWARD. nazr's rebounding more than makes up for what Keith was getting anyway.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Rashidi, maybe you should compare the rebounding numbers of small forwards in the league today, not the greatest players of all time. Those numbers show that Tim is a good rebounder for his position. Not many small forwards grab boards like Van Horn does....mainly cause hes a POWER FORWARD. nazr's rebounding more than makes up for what Keith was getting anyway.


Greatest players of all-time? Marcus Camby is one of the all-time greats?

Those numbers show that TT is a good rebounder for a SHOOTING GUARD. He's 6'10, not 6'6. Van Horn is 6'10. *If TT could rebound, he'd be considered a PF.*

And like I said, Nazr's rebounding doesn't make up for it, because he grabs as many boards as Deke does. The Knicks essentially traded Mutombo, VH, and Doleac for Nazr and TT, seeing as how Deke is all but out of the rotation once he comes back.


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## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> *Greatest players of all-time? Marcus Camby is one of the all-time greats?*
> ...


Marcus Camby is not 1 of the greatest players of all time. Howard Eisley is. Get it right Penny Hardaway.


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## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

Rashidi, I don't get it why you say that because of the TT trade Mutumbo was essentially "traded." IMO Mutumbo is so washed out this year that he wouldn't have played often enough anyway. The knicks could have slided KT to center again, with KVH playing PF and have Penny or Anderson as SF. 

BTW, and I think this is very important for this whole argument, Rashidi, are those numbers from THIS year or LAST year? You said last year, so I am inclined to believe that the numbers aren't taht accurate. My reasons:

First, Mutumbo is getting really old and deteriorating rapidly. He is a lot worse this year compared to last year, and i doubt that his rebound rate is as high this year. If you want proof of Mutumbo's rapidly deteriorating skills, considering that Mutumbo was the defensive player of the year only 3 years ago, and now he can't even play over 20 minutes a game constantly. 

Second, each players rebound rate should change every year. I am inclined to believe that Nazr is a better rebounder this year compared to last year because of his 18 rebounds with players shooting around 60% a few days ago. 

Rashidi, if you can get the rebound rates of these players THIS year and you can prove me wrong, I will accept your statement that we lost rebounding in the trade. However, amybe you should consider that adding Dolec to the bench of the pre-trade lineup and Mutumbo to the bench of the post-trade lineup before comparing the rebounding rates. And we also know that the trade wasn't made just because of rebounds, right? I'm sure IT was thinking of other aspects too when he made the trade.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Actually, rebound rates really don't change. They stay pretty constant.

And I doubt Mutombo is rebounding less, he is averaging like 7 boards per game playing half a game. I have a hard time believing he has gone down.

The rates listed are from 02-03. I don't have the rates for this year (wait for the end of the season) but I will list the career rates of players.

Tim Thomas
97-98: 9.4 (3.7 rpg)
98-99: 9.4 (2.5 rpg)
99-00: 9.3 (4.2 rpg)
00-01: 8.5 (4.1 rpg)
01-02: 8.7 (4.1 rpg)
02-03: 9.6 (4.9 rpg)

Notice how the difference between his high and low is only 1.1. Hardly any variance in 6 seasons. And hardly any variance means hardly any improvement...

Keith Van Horn
97-98: 10.1 (6.6 rpg)
98-99: 12.6 (8.5 rpg)
99-00: 13.5 (8.5 rpg)
00-01: 11.6 (7.1 rpg)
01-02: 13.9 (7.5 rpg)
02-03: 13.2 (7.1 rpg)

3 rates of 13 in the last 4 years, not much change there. During the 00-01 season, VH broke his ankle, which probably led to decreased numbers that season. Van Horn at his worst is still better than TT's best.

Stephon Marbury
96-97: 4.7
97-98: 4.2
98-99: 4.2
99-00: 4.6
00-01: 4.6
01-02: 4.7
02-03: 4.6

Little variance.

Dikembe Mutombo
91-92: 17.3
92-93: 18.7
93-94: 19.0
94-95: 19.8
95-96: 18.6
96-97: 18.7
97-98: 18.8
98-99: 19.6
99-00: 21.3
00-01: 22.1
01-02: 17.0
02-03: 17.1

Nazr Mohammed
98-99: 17.7
99-00: 14.6
00-01: 18.9
01-02: 17.2
02-03: 16.5

Again, I really doubt that Mutombo even at his age is any worse at rebounding than Nazr. Mutombo is 18th in the league in rebounds per 48 minutes with 13.8. Nazr is 13th with 14.1. KT is 37th with 12.6. Where were you when Mutombo grabbed 18 boards vs Detroit? He has grabbed 13 defensive boards twice this season, and 6 offensive boards twice this season. Nazr's season high is also 18 boards. I am failing to see how Nazr is significantly better at rebounding. He certainly is significantly worse at shot blocking, that's for sure.

Ben Wallace
96-97: 17.2
97-98: 16.4
98-99: 18.3
99-00: 18.2
00-01: 20.4
01-02: 21.2
02-03: 23.2

Samuel Dalembert btw, had a rebound rate of 21.9 in his rookie year.


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## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

Ok, I'll accept the fact that our rebounding took a hit with the trade. However, with the trade, Nazr came and I think he is a better starting center than Mutumbo. Granted Mutumbo can still rebound and block, but he can't do much else. He only plays for half the game for a reason, he can't play more because he has no stamina. With Nazr here, he can play the bulk of the minutes and play decently, while Mutumbo can be his backup. If Mutumbo plays less minutes, he can conserve his energy more and possibaly play even more effectively in his limited minutes. It's a win win situation that way. Thats my thoughts anyway.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

^exactly. Mutombos post game is the ugliest thing in the world, and his offensive boards lead to bricks off the top of the backboard. Mohammed gets the job done, and he can guard quicker centers, something mutombo could not do.

and yeah, you had wilt chamberlain in that list, so i just skipped through it. 

if you show the rates between all small forwards this year, hes fine. You act like he runs away from rebounds. he grabs them at a rate just as good as mashburn and tmac, so whats the problem? Hes even right there with mr triple double himself, Jason Kidd. Consider that Tim plays only 32 minutes a game, he would average like 8 boards if he played 38-40 a game.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> He only plays for half the game for a reason, he can't play more because he has no stamina.


Really? Earlier in the year people were crying because he WASN'T playing 30 minutes. People were crying because Chaney was benching him. Why is fatigue suddenly an issue? Mutombo played 30+ minutes every year of his career up until Jersey. Did Mutombo's heart rate suddenly drop? Is he now phsicially incapable of 30 minutes because he aged 2 years? Didn't a couple Knick wins come from Mutombo playing 35+ minutes?



> if you show the rates between all small forwards this year, hes fine. You act like he runs away from rebounds. he grabs them at a rate just as good as mashburn and tmac, so whats the problem? Hes even right there with mr triple double himself, Jason Kidd.


Tim Thomas: 6 foot 10.
Jamal Mashburn: 6 foot 8.
Jason Kidd: 6 foot 4.

Who cares if he grabs them at the same rate as Jason Kidd? *Jason Kidd is considered a good rebounder because he's a good rebounder at POINT GUARD. NOT SMALL FORWARD.*



> Consider that Tim plays only 32 minutes a game, he would average like 8 boards if he played 38-40 a game


WHAATTT???

Are you on crack? Do the math.

How is TT, who averages 5 boards in 32 minutes, going to grab an additional 3 boards in 6-8 extra minutes? And Jamal Mashburn averages 6 boards in 40 minutes. How would TT average 8?

There is no way around the fact that Tim Thomas for all his height and athleticism, is a terrible rebounder.

Darius Miles (you know, that guy that sucks)
00-01: 12.7
01-02: 11.5
02-03: 10.1
Height/Weight: 6'9, 210 lbs

Lamar Odom
99-00: 12.1
00-01: 11.8
01-02: 10.0
02-03: 11.1
Height/Weight: 6'10, 220 lbs

Lee Nailon
00-01: 11.2
01-02: 8.7
02-03: 10.1
Height/Weight: 6'9, 238 lbs

Tim Thomas
97-98: 9.4
98-99: 9.4
99-00: 9.3
00-01: 8.5
01-02: 8.7
02-03: 9.6
Height/Weight: 6'10, 240 lbs

I think it says A LOT that Lee Nailon is a better rebounder than Tim Thomas

Keith Van Horn btw, is ALSO 6'10, 240 lbs. So why is it that he is considered a "Power Forward" (after playing SF for 3 years) while Tim Thomas is not, yet is exactly the same size?

Because TT can't rebound, and VH can. Plain and simple. If TT could handle the ball and pass it, he'd be a PG. But he can't, and that's why he's not considered a PG, or at the least a point forward. Well, he can't rebound either, and that's why he's not considered a PF despite his size. Your skills dictate your position. VH had the offensive skills to play SF and the rebounding skills to play PF. Kevin Garnett can play all 3 positions because he has that, and he can defend the lane like a center. 

Kevin Garnett btw, is 6'11, 240 lbs.


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## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

Yes so like I said follow mine and Rahidi's plan to success which I also forgot to add includes Scott Layden, tons of wasted draft picks and Frederick Weiss. Don't think that sounds enticing enough to believe in? Try Eisley as the new starting PG with Keith Van Horn at center. What a dream team, eh?


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NYKFan123</b>!
> Yes so like I said follow mine and Rahidi's plan to success which I also forgot to add includes Scott Layden, tons of wasted draft picks and Frederick Weiss. Don't think that sounds enticing enough to believe in? Try Eisley as the new starting PG with Keith Van Horn at center. What a dream team, eh?



Sarcasm without analysis is stupid. Rashidi makes a great point. Your skills not your potential define your position. TT refuses to play PF and is a crappy passer. VH refuses to do nothing, except be more than himself.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Look, I know you were 6 or 7 years old at the time, but please try to remember that Scott Layden didn't draft Frederic Weis, Ed Tapscott did.


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## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Look, I know you were 6 or 7 years old at the time, but please try to remember that Scott Layden didn't draft Frederic Weis, Ed Tapscott did.


And your point is....?


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## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Sarcasm without analysis is stupid. Rashidi makes a great point. Your skills not your potential define your position. TT refuses to play PF and is a crappy passer. VH refuses to do nothing, except be more than himself.


So pretty much you have joined Rashidi's quest to prove that Scott Layden did a masterful job as GM of the NY Knicks, isn't that right?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

That depends. Maybe he doesn't see your quest to "eradicate Rashidi (didn't you say you weren't talking to that guy?) by making god-awful ignorant statements for the sake of making them" as a very valid one.

Perish the thought that someone could actually not care about your angelic cause and disagree with one of your views.


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## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

Go read my post in the other topic about Nazr and TT thats about 5 pgs long, and answer it because I see you haven't responded to what I had to say.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NYKFan123</b>!
> 
> 
> So pretty much you have joined Rashidi's quest to prove that Scott Layden did a masterful job as GM of the NY Knicks, isn't that right?




HAHhAhA YOU HAVE GOT ME THERE I HAD NOTHING BUT LOVE FOR SCOTT LAYDEN!!323


I NEVER POSTED BAD THINGS ABOUT HIM ONE TIME I LET HIIM KICK ME IN THE BALLZ CUZ HE WUZ MAD I LOVE HIM THAT MUCH!!!!


U R HIP HOP KEWL SMRT DWED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I rest my case.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Tim Thomas is only better than VH by .003 percentagewise over his career. Too bad his game inside of 23 feet is considerably worse.



How in the world did we go from this TOTALLY INACCURATE statement by rashidi to rashidi squirming out of it and posting about rebound rates..This is what he always does

This is what I love...A guy makes a statement that is simply not true,bashes someone else with it,and then changes the topic...

For the last time,TIM THOMAS has taken more 3 point shots than KVH and made a HIGHER percentage...This he is a better 3 point shooter.....FACT!!!!!!!!!

TT has the identical field goal percentage as KVH.....Make up any and every excuse that you can ,change the topic,but these numbers wont change because you have a giant erection for KVH

Sorry rashidi,this is no different than your giant erections for layden and eisly.....layden stunk up the joint,eisly is garbage and your **** erotic fantasies wont persuade me to think anything else....


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Hey Fordy,I know you hate this kind of trash talk,but its just like being at the schoolyard..there is no malice intended..at least on my part...


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> For the last time,TIM THOMAS has taken more 3 point shots than KVH and made a HIGHER percentage...This he is a better 3 point shooter.....FACT!!!!!!!!!


Oy vey.

Shandon Anderson shot 37% on 3's last year. FACT!!!!!!!

I rest my case.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Shandon Anderson shot 37% on 3's last year. FACT!!!!!!!


Rashidi,I will go along with that silly statement,just to humor you...

May I please have some help from the rest of this board????

Here are the non disputable facts!!!!If you cant grasp this or just refuse becuase you like KVH,you really should not be offended when someone calls you out.....

Ready??

TT,in his career has made
502 of his 1393 3 points shots taken...thats .360....
KVH,in his career has made
476 of his 1393 3 point shots taken.....thats .357....

rashidi,no matter what language you speak,no matter your sexual orientation,religous beliefs,or anything else that may influence you,Tim Thomas is a better 3 point shooter than keith Van Horn......

You can argue all you want,but you are just making yourself out to be a bigger numnut than you are....

I am sorry to bring this to your attention,but the world is not flat,layden was not a good GM,Eisly should not be a starter and TIM THOMAS shoots better from 3 point range than KVH for their respective careers.....


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Remember what I said about the difference in FG%s? That Allen Iverson's 41% is not the same a John Starks' 41%?

Iverson is a FIRST OPTION.

Jordan was a FIRST OPTION.

Van Horn has always been a SECOND OPTION.

Thomas has always been a FOURTH OPTION.

Think Steve Kerr would hit all the threes he did if he were the FIRST OPTION?

TT's best shooting years were when he was the FOURTH OPTION. You get more open looks as a FOURTH OPTION. Than you do as a SECOND OPTION. Who do you think the Buck opponents were going to leave open, Allen, Cassell, Robinson, or Thomas?

And for a guy thats such a stickler on "winning now" you sure are taking a sudden interest in "previous seasons" for some reason. Van Horn has been shooting the lights out for the last 3 months, not 2 weeks, but 3 months, and today, he has a better 3pt% than either player has had at any point in their careers. Maybe it had something to do with Van Horn becoming the 3rd option in an offense for the first time in his career.

Oh wait, it wasn't the first time. He was also the 3rd option during the Nets playoff run (after sharing second option with K-Mart in the regular season). You know, that playoff run where he shot 40+% on 3's?

Further, lets take a look at RECENT history, since Van Horns CAREER % is hurt by his first two seasons. After all, MICHAEL JORDAN and CLYDE DREXLER had low career percentages, but they were certainly deadly from that range as their careers PROGREESSED. Progression. A word Tim Thomas seems to be allergic to. But nevermind.

KVH
00-01: 38%
01-02: 34%
02-03: 36%
03-04: 39%

TT
00-01: 41%
01-02: 32%
02-03: 36%
03-04: 36%

Explain to me again how TT is so much better than VH at threes again? Given recent history, it sure doesn't look that way. KVH has had a better percentage in each of the last 3 seasons.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

So many things I disagree with you on, Rash, but not on this. Shooting % simply don't say who is a better shooter for the reasons that both you and I have discussed. 1st or 2nd option, what part of the game you are shooting, shot clock etc. TT is simply not the shooter KVH is...so whats the big deal with these guys? I can very easily imagine VH took a lot of shots with the clock running down and at the end of close games as well. Thomas simply was not put in these positions. He was free to shoot under much less pressure, given his position with the team. I watched both from the time they were in college and there is no comparison in offensive ability. TT will run faster and dunk better, maybe...and we all know you get more points for dunks.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashidi,I am not going to even bother what you write anymore since you are not a rational but completely emotional man...

Read what you post



> Tim Thomas is only better than VH by .003 percentagewise over his career. Too bad his game inside of 23 feet is considerably worse.


Its simply not true..Take your prozac or lithium and settle down..I am not going to bring Iverson,MJ or any other delusional fantasy you have....FACT..TT shoots better from 3 point land than KVH,and the same from inside 23 feet....You made the false statement that his game inside of 23 feet is considerably worse...Its not and the numbers dont lie..you do.....

To top it off everything you say is complete BS......On one hand you tell me Vujanic and Lampe are better shooters than Marbury,though they have never proven anything in the NBA,but when TT shoots better from 3 point land than KVH,it doesnt mean anything becuse he wasnt the first or second option......Get #$%^ real

You have got to be kidding me........


BTW for recent history,take a look at KVH scoring vs TT's...KVH has a slightly negative slope while TT is positive.....

im done with this topic,if your meds kick in,let me know


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## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Really? Earlier in the year people were crying because he WASN'T playing 30 minutes. People were crying because Chaney was benching him. Why is fatigue suddenly an issue? Mutombo played 30+ minutes every year of his career up until Jersey. Did Mutombo's heart rate suddenly drop? Is he now phsicially incapable of 30 minutes because he aged 2 years? Didn't a couple Knick wins come from Mutombo playing 35+ minutes?


I don't know aobut others, but I certainly wasn't crying for more minutes from Mutumbo. It is a fact that he has lost a step and simply can't be relied on to play for long stretches without tiring. Sort of like how David Robinson played less minutes later in his career. Sure Mutumbo played over 30 minutes with the Sixers only 2 years ago, but he wasn't playing very well late in the game. His production dropped in general because of his age and stamina. If you want Mutumbo to play 30 minutes a game now, I'm sure he can, but don't expect too much from him late in the game. No doubt he can play a few great games playing over 30 minutes, but do you honestly think he can do taht all season long? There is a reason he is averaging less minutes now.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Rashidi,I am not going to even bother what you write anymore since you are not a rational but completely emotional man...


In other words, you don't want to address the damning points I made. Your conviction about not bothering with me sure didn't stop you from sending your own point to me over this topic. Be happy I'm not a one way street like yourself.



> BTW for recent history,take a look at KVH scoring vs TT's...KVH has a slightly negative slope while TT is positive.....


I'm sure that has nothing to do with the Bucks getting rid of Glenn Robinson, Sam Cassell, and Ray Allen, and clearly nothing to do with minute totals slightly increasing from past years. Call me when TT actually passes KVH in scoring.



> Its simply not true..Take your prozac or lithium and settle down..I am not going to bring Iverson,MJ or any other delusional fantasy you have....FACT..TT shoots better from 3 point land than KVH,and the same from inside 23 feet....You made the false statement that his game inside of 23 feet is considerably worse...Its not and the numbers dont lie..you do.....
> 
> To top it off everything you say is complete BS......On one hand you tell me Vujanic and Lampe are better shooters than Marbury,though they have never proven anything in the NBA,but when TT shoots better from 3 point land than KVH,it doesnt mean anything becuse he wasnt the first or second option......Get #$%^ real


You truly are as ignorant as you present yourself to be. It is as if nothing at all has been said about this. Perhaps you should open your eyes when you read posts made by posters other than your yourself.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashidi,may i humbly suggest that you vent in another forum...
Perhaps you are just confused and think this is a Miami Heat forum..Its NOT

You clearly can not emotionally come to grips with layden being fired and eisly traded.........

enuff already


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> You clearly can not emotionally come to grips with layden being fired and eisly traded.........


Please note how it's everybody else who brings up Layden and Eisley. Perhaps tomorrow, I will make a topic collecting all the various moments where people brought up Eisley and Layden without me saying a word.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NYKFan123</b>!
> 
> 
> I rest my case.



First you have to make one.


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