# Jimmy Buckets FA Thread



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

So, it appears he's been offered both the regular QO and a max QO deal. His options are basically take the 1-year QO, take the 5-year max, or go sign an offer sheet with another team (which the Bulls will match), which must be at least 5 years in length.

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....ulls-give-jimmy-butler-max-offer-as-expected/

My question would be what team would be willing to tie up their cap space for a while with a 3-year offer, knowing the Bulls will match. Is the prospect of making him an UFA 3 years from now, rather than 5, enough to tempt anyone to do that? Won't teams have more immediate needs?

Should be interesting. I'm glad to see the Bulls actually taking the initiative rather than letting the market decide.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> So, it appears he's been offered both the regular QO and a max QO deal. His options are basically take the 1-year QO, take the 5-year max, or go sign an offer sheet with another team (which the Bulls will match), which must be at least 5 years in length.
> 
> http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports....ulls-give-jimmy-butler-max-offer-as-expected/
> 
> ...


if the bulls really took the initiative they would have given jimmy 4 ys 48 mil. before the season , which he gladly would have taken ....now they are basically going to be lucky if he takes 5 yrs 90 mil.

good for jimmy but not so great for the bulls bottom line and their ability to put talent around him.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Da Grinch said:


> if the bulls really took the initiative they would have given jimmy 4 ys 48 mil. before the season , which he gladly would have taken ....now they are basically going to be lucky if he takes 5 yrs 90 mil.
> 
> good for jimmy but not so great for the bulls bottom line and their ability to put talent around him.


That would've been great in hindsight, but Jimmy's improvement the past season is almost unprecedented. I distinctly remember 1 year ago Bulls fans all over the place were wanting to trade Jimmy for an upgrade who could score, since he was an "offensive liability". $10M per year was more than fair at the time. Jimmy gambled on himself and won. I doubt the Bulls are complaining, though...I have no doubt they'll gladly pay Jimmy his worth this summer. The extra $3-5M per year saved would've been nice, but it's really not as much of a killer as in the past with the overall cap ceiling reportedly going up significantly over the next few years. We weren't going to have cap space anyways, all this does it force Reinsdorf into paying luxury tax, and I believe I heard he gave the green light to do so this summer since they were able to evade the repeater tax thanks to the Luol Deng trade.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

The consensus out there among the web is Jimmy will almost sure sign a 3-year max deal; I forget the exact number but probably around $15-16/year. He won't take the 5-year max of $90M because of how much the salary cap is expected to rise over the next few years. Unless he has some major drop off in production, he will be viewed as a 2-way player in the middle of his prime 3 years from now, so he is betting on his big career payday being 3 years from now, when he could make $20-25M+ per season from 2018-2023. 

Jimmy would really have to despise playing for the Bulls to take the 1-year Qualifying Offer. That's a huge financial risk to take, and the cap isn't going to go up next year like it will 3 years from now.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

yodurk said:


> The consensus out there among the web is Jimmy will almost sure sign a 3-year max deal;



Someone has to offer it to him. Who will?


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

It doesn't matter who offers it, the Bulls will match it. One has to wonder if all this is really worth it at the end of the day. Jimmy wants to play for the Lakers and he wants a shorter deal, the Bulls aren't going to give him that and its probably going to cause some issues. 

90 million commitment to a guy who has quickly turned into a guy who is having issues with the organization.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> It doesn't matter who offers it, the Bulls will match it. One has to wonder if all this is really worth it at the end of the day. Jimmy wants to play for the Lakers and he wants a shorter deal, the Bulls aren't going to give him that and its probably going to cause some issues.
> 
> 90 million commitment to a guy who has quickly turned into a guy who is having issues with the organization.



It actually does matter (and hugely so), if you are catching my point. If _nobody_ offers Jimmy a three-year deal because they don't want their cap space tied up when they are certain the Bulls will simply match at the end of the waiting period, then Jimmy won't have the option of a three-year deal, and will be forced to choose between the one-year QO or a 5-year max.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

In a semi-related note, Jimmy was on my flight up from New Orleans to Chicago on Friday. I'd like to think that's a good omen and he won't take the QO...


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> It doesn't matter who offers it, the Bulls will match it. One has to wonder if all this is really worth it at the end of the day. Jimmy wants to play for the Lakers and he wants a shorter deal, the Bulls aren't going to give him that and its probably going to cause some issues.
> 
> 90 million commitment to a guy who has quickly turned into a guy who is having issues with the organization.


Or not?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/615898983748235264


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Bulls would rather him take the 5 year deal. They definitely don't want to offer him a short contact and they most certainly don't want to pay him super money in 2017. 

I can't imagine jimmy taking a huge gamble again and going for the qo. I expect him to sign the max deal.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Bulls would rather him take the 5 year deal. They definitely don't want to offer him a short contact and they most certainly don't want to pay him super money in 2017.
> 
> I can't imagine jimmy taking a huge gamble again and going for the qo. I expect him to sign the max deal.


Sounds like he may sign a 5-year deal, but the Bulls might let him have a player option for the last year. Fair.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/616248150144106496

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/616115388934393856


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Would love if Jimmy takes a 4-year max deal w/ 5th year option. Seems like a reasonable middle ground that works for both sides. But who am I to say.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

yodurk said:


> Would love if Jimmy takes a 4-year max deal w/ 5th year option. Seems like a reasonable middle ground that works for both sides. But who am I to say.


Looks like that is almost done:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/616309687886090240


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Game, set, match.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/616309941960208384


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## Drizzy (Mar 23, 2012)

Done deal apparently.

Brian Windhorst @WindhorstESPN

The Bulls and Jimmy Butler have agreed on a five-year, $90 million contract according to sources. 4m


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Awesome! Jimmy Butler wearing a Bulls uniform for the next 4-5 years...made my day!


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

This might turn out to be the fastest Bulls' off-season we've ever seen...

Re-sign Dunleavy & Butler on 1st day of free agency
Use lower level exception (3-yr, $10M) on ??? for backup PG
Re-sign E'Twaun Moore and ??? for 3rd string defensive C
(obviously need to figure out who our 2nd string PG and 3rd string C options are)

PG: Rose, ???, Hinrich
SG: Butler, Snell, Moore
SF: Dunleavy, McDermott
PF: Mirotic, Gibson, Portis
C: Gasol, Noah, ???

Obviously a trade could happen and I do think we are shopping one/both of Gibson and Noah, but Gibson just had surgery and Noah needs to prove he can bounce back a bit before we get any offers worth our time. My prediction is a consolidation trade happens mid-season near the trade deadline. 

Then time to get to work with Coach Hoiberg. No distractions this summer, just hard work, get on the same page, build chemistry, and we'll be ready for a fun season.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

It still boggles my mind that Jimmy Buttler is going to make 19 million a year... But hey that's NBA contracts for ya. Great deal for Jimmy, ok deal for the Bulls. At least they don't lose him for nothing. 

As much as I like Dunleavy, and its nice to see him come back, they just basically brought back the same team as last year. Only more expensive and older. I fail to see the big picture other than if it doesn't work in the next 2 years, they will blow this up and rebuild through the draft.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

It's true alot of the team is the same, but there is also a good deal of room for improvement internally. This being a team that won 50 games in spite of lazy inconsistent play most of the season and poor chemistry between coach, players, and front office. There seems to be a concerted effort to clean up those things and get everyone on the same page again. I'm not guaranteeing that will automatically happen, I'm just saying if it does, this team could be real good.

I basically see 3 ways this team gets better. One is what I said above with getting everyone on the same page. Secondly from the younger guys getting better and more experienced (Mirotic, McDermott, Snell, Portis). Third is from Rose and Noah, and to a lesser extent Taj, who were pretty terrible for alot of last season. Rose in particular is the one guy who can make all the difference, should he keep himself healthy. He has some solid momentum from a good playoff run where he played well, and is finally entering an off-season with some confidence and good health. I could see him having a nice bounce back year. Noah I'm not as sure about but I'll say this, he can't be a whole lot worse than what we witnessed in 2014-2015.

I should point out too that the Bulls really only have a 2-year window with this squad. Alot of our contracts expire in Summer 2017, then you have another NBA lockout looming. Things should become clear by that point on whether guys like Rose, Noah, Taj, etc., are worth bringing back to the post-lockout Bulls team in 2017-18. My bet is we have a mini-rebuild after the lockout while building around Butler, Mirotic, McDermott, Portis as the young core. Not really counting on Rose being here beyond 2017 necessarily unless he convinces us his game will age well and he can remain healthy.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> I fail to see the big picture other than if it doesn't work in the next 2 years, they will blow this up and rebuild through the draft.


Honestly, I think that _is_ the big picture, as far as the Bulls' FO is concerned, though I think they would move a big if they could. I'm not sure they can get the value they want, though, given the health status of Noah and Gibson, so rolling with the current squad is pretty much what I expect for the next season or two.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

If Butler continues playing like he did last season, he's worth it.

Has there been any indication that the Bulls are going to be bringing Noah off the bench or that Noah is at any way content with coming off the bench? Last year at this time he was the reigning all-NBA 1st team center.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

K4E said:


> If Butler continues playing like he did last season, he's worth it.
> 
> Has there been any indication that the Bulls are going to be bringing Noah off the bench or that Noah is at any way content with coming off the bench? Last year at this time he was the reigning all-NBA 1st team center.


Nothing that I've seen either way.

Noah wants to win so I think it will be fine, but then again he will be a free agent and may want to showcase himself. So wouldn't surprise me if he is unhappy about a 20 min/game off the bench role. 

The way I see it, Rose & Butler are the only guaranteed starting roles. The other 3 spots are up for grabs. Gasol obviously has the inner track for 1 of those spots but maybe Noah surprises us and gets himself right physically & mentally this summer. Either way I don't want to see Gasol & Noah on the court together much. And Mirotic should be starting PF regardless, IMO.

My preferred lineups:
Starters -- Rose, Butler, Snell, Mirotic, Gasol
Bench -- FA signing, Dunleavy, McDermott, Gibson, Noah
3rd string -- Hinrich, Moore, Portis, Vet min signing

I think Hoiberg should (and will) use a consistent 10-man rotation that keeps the starters to 28-32 minutes per game, and runs the 2nd unit guys 16-20 minutes per game. 

Also given the likelihood of Gibson, Noah, or Gasol getting injured at some point, I see some good opportunities opening up for Bobby Portis to step into the 2nd unit for 16-20 minutes on a semi-frequent basis.

This is how I see it playing out to start the season, however I do forecast a trade deadline move, swapping one of our bigs + one of our role player wings for a big upgrade at starting SG/SF to play alongside Jimmy.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

I think its going to be real tough from a locker room management standpoint to just bench Noah. If he's healthy, he's going to start, IMO. Unless he's just ready to call it a career and doesn't care about his next contract.

Its the same logjam as last year, IMO. 4 guys at the 4/5 that all deserve to play. Sure, it will be cleared up a bit when someone gets hurt, but when all are healthy, people will be complaining about minutes yet again. Which gets old.

I also don't see Dunleavy coming back here to come off the bench. And, he was the best player out of Snell, Dunleavy, McDermott, so I think he'll keep his spot.

But, you never know. New coach, new way of doing things. Tough thing to do to start out is to piss off some of the established vets though. There really isn't much to be gained from that.


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## Fergus (Oct 2, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Nothing that I've seen either way.
> 
> Noah wants to win so I think it will be fine, but then again he will be a free agent and may want to showcase himself. So wouldn't surprise me if he is unhappy about a 20 min/game off the bench role.
> 
> ...


The problem with starting Rose, Butler, Snell, Mirotic and Gasol is that we will have little interior defense. While I hope Mirotic shows some real improvement on defense after the off season, until then I think either Gibson or Noah needs to be in the lineup to give the Bulls some defense in the paint.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

Fergus said:


> The problem with starting Rose, Butler, Snell, Mirotic and Gasol is that we will have little interior defense. While I hope Mirotic shows some real improvement on defense after the off season, until then I think either Gibson or Noah needs to be in the lineup to give the Bulls some defense in the paint.


I agree. You still have to play D.

Some folks advocate for Rose/Butler/McDermott/Mirotic/Gasol. 

It going to be tough to stop anyone with that lineup.

And any interior D is pretty much out the window with Mirotic / Gasol.

The logjam at the 4/5 isn't going to be solved with a coaching change.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

IMO...Mirotic & Gasol will be fine as starters together. They play a fair # of minutes together last year and looked good most of the time; better than Noah/Gasol from what I recall. I qualify that with 2 things...first, I do not advocate them to close out games together necessarily or even playing long extended minutes together. Remember Hoiberg is probably going to run out a deeper rotation than Thibs which means Gasol & Mirotic may only play 28-30 min/game each. If we're getting slaughtered at the rim to start a game, all Hoiberg has to do is sub in the Noah or Taj, or even Portis, in place of Gasol or Mirotic (depending on nature of the problem). Problem solved.

Second, I believe it works best when pairing Jimmy & Snell together on the perimeter who are both good at pressuring the ball and staving off penetration. 

Hoiberg values offensive rhythm alot more than Thibodeau, and will also push to increase the pace we played at last year. I don't know how you accomplish that with Noah at PF (who is too slow nowadays for PF), or Taj who is the worst big man passer on our team and a bit of a black hole on offense, not to mention coming off a major surgery on his ankle. Quite simply you get the best combination of speed, passing, shooting, off the dribble shot creation, and even defense when you run out Rose-Butler-Snell-Mirotic together. I guess you could put Noah in there at center instead of Gasol and could feast on offensive rebounds, but I feel that Noah will kill our spacing and I really don't want him playing more minutes than Gasol. 20 minutes per game for Noah until he proves he deserves otherwise.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

K4E said:


> I agree. You still have to play D.
> 
> Some folks advocate for Rose/Butler/McDermott/Mirotic/Gasol.
> 
> ...


I definitely do not advocate for McDermott to start yet. One step at a time. He is likely going to play alot more for Hoiberg but he has a long ways to go before proving he should start above Dunleavy or even Snell. Guy still needs to gain alot of confidence and can do that best in a consistent 6th-8th man role for 20 minutes a game. I agree McDermott combined with the Mirotic/Gasol frontourt would be the straw that breaks the camel's back defensively. Having Snell there makes all the difference thanks to his length and ability to pressure the ball well and cover ground. Snell can also run the break, handle the ball, and facilitate ball movement better than McDermott. I see Snell flourishing as a role player in Hoiberg's system this year. If you need offensive punch off the bench, then you call McDermott's number in place of Snell.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

K4E said:


> I think its going to be real tough from a locker room management standpoint to just bench Noah. If he's healthy, he's going to start, IMO. Unless he's just ready to call it a career and doesn't care about his next contract.
> 
> Its the same logjam as last year, IMO. 4 guys at the 4/5 that all deserve to play. Sure, it will be cleared up a bit when someone gets hurt, but when all are healthy, people will be complaining about minutes yet again. Which gets old.
> 
> ...



I pretty much agree with all of this. Hoiberg will undoubtedly have a different rotation and will likely not play certain guys the same huge minutes Thibs did, but the roster is what it is, and there is a logjam at the 4/5 of pieces that are individually good but don't necessarily mesh that well together.

It's hard to tell your DPOY, 1st Team All-NBA center that he's going to be riding the pine because he had a down year last year, even if it might be the right call. Similarly, you're not going to tell Pau, who is coming off a year with very high productivity, that he's now a bench player. My guess is these two continue to start, but Hoiberg tries to separate them more as the game progresses. 

I am less convinced that Dunleavy will get a starting slot due to veteran entitlement, but if last year is any indication, he'll probably just be the best option at that spot.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> I pretty much agree with all of this. Hoiberg will undoubtedly have a different rotation and will likely not play certain guys the same huge minutes Thibs did, but the roster is what it is, and there is a logjam at the 4/5 of pieces that are individually good but don't necessarily mesh that well together.
> 
> It's hard to tell your DPOY, 1st Team All-NBA center that he's going to be riding the pine because he had a down year last year, even if it might be the right call. Similarly, you're not going to tell Pau, who is coming off a year with very high productivity, that he's now a bench player. My guess is these two continue to start, but Hoiberg tries to separate them more as the game progresses.
> 
> I am less convinced that Dunleavy will get a starting slot due to veteran entitlement, but if last year is any indication, he'll probably just be the best option at that spot.


I agree Noah/Gasol starting is most likely outcome for the reasons you stated. Just not the best outcome in terms of the most effective starting lineup, which is disappointing. But I do think the front office will be aiming for a mid-season trade to clean up the log jam. Just unlikely to happen this summer b/c Noah's value is low and Gibson just had surgery.

Re: Dunleavy, keep in mind he and Snell were not far off from each other production wise. Snell had a PER of 10, Dunleavy PER of 11, and that was in spite of a terrible 1st half of the season for Snell. Snell is getting better while 
Dunleavy is getting older, and Hoiberg's style can only help Snell. The thing that will kill Snell's chances is if he starts the season ice-cold from 3-pt range.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

yodurk said:


> Snell is getting better while
> Dunleavy is getting older, and Hoiberg's style can only help Snell. The thing that will kill Snell's chances is if he starts the season ice-cold from 3-pt range.


The thing is Dunleavy is the three point shooting.

He was easily our best volume three point shooter last year and 14th in the NBA. If Rose and Noah/Gasol are out on the floor, we need him.

Some think that Mirotic at the 4 helps with this problem. But, if last year is any indicator, Mirotic isn't a very good three point shooter.

Dunleavy might get much worse due to his age, but let's hope not, since the front office just signed him to a 3 year contract.

I found that very curious given that many thought that the front office was steamed at Thibs for not playing McDermott more. It seems they locked in a productive vet ahead of him now on a longer term deal.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Dunleavy is cool with a bench role, though. That is basically what he signed up for 2 years ago when Luol Deng was here. 

Dunleavy is definitely the Bulls' most consistent 3-pt shooter but Snell can be a good shooter too. That is why I say Snell's ability to start is 100% dependent on him improving his shooting consistency and confidence. He's flashed it and shot a very respectable 37% last year from 3-pt range. 

Mirotic I am not worried about (yet). Alot of rookies need time to adjust to NBA 3-pt range. I can name countless examples of good, even great 3-pt shooters, who just didn't have a high 3-pt shooting percentage their rookie year. I'll be more concerned if he fails to improve his 2nd year and/or flattens out at 33% in his 3rd season (league average is 35% so hopefully he's at least that).


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

yodurk said:


> Dunleavy is cool with a bench role, though. That is basically what he signed up for 2 years ago when Luol Deng was here.


That's a good point and true.

There is a difference though between being content coming off the bench for an all-star level player like Deng and coming off the bench for a guy like McDermott who put up a PER of 6 last season.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

K4E said:


> That's a good point and true.
> 
> There is a difference though between being content coming off the bench for an all-star level player like Deng and coming off the bench for a guy like McDermott who put up a PER of 6 last season.


I hope McDermott doesn't start yet. He needs to play alot more this year but starting is too much too fast. He first needs to just find a niche as a scorer/shooter, which builds from his strengths. My suggestion is more Snell to start over both McD and Dunleavy. Snell has enough of an overall game where he is unlikely to be severely exposed in any one area; even if he isn't elite in any one area. Dunleavy is solid, though I do worry with his age he'll start to have more games where he is just a step too slow to play the style we want, making a bench role more appropriate.


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## K4E (Jun 29, 2015)

yodurk said:


> My suggestion is more Snell to start over both McD and Dunleavy. Snell has enough of an overall game where he is unlikely to be severely exposed in any one area; even if he isn't elite in any one area.


Like I think you posted previously, this would work if Snell could shoot the three consistently.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

K4E said:


> Like I think you posted previously, this would work if Snell could shoot the three consistently.


Snell shooting 37% on 3-pointers last year gives me hope. That and his soft high arcing shot that in spite of looking odd, seems to come off his hand identically each and every time. 37% would be good enough, IMO. Even better if he can get more like 38-40% with around 4 attempts per game from deep. Add in a few drives and fast break opps and he'll be at 8-12 ppg in 20-something minutes a night. Throw in some good defense and ball movement and that is quality production from a role-playing starter. Danny Green territory. If he pulls that off, Snell has earned his draft spot easily. I'd gladly retract my belief that we should've drafted Gorgui Dieng instead of Snell.


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