# Last seven games



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

We all know the Knicks are playing poorly, and the Bucks are a better team. But what of the last seven games?

Knicks 5-2
Bucks 1-6

Last seven games averages:

KVH 18.3 pts 6.1 rebs
TT 18.9 pts 6.4 rebs

Now one of those games VH only played 20 mins and got 10pts 3rebs, which skews his total downward. But we know TT is inconsitent and in the long run we'd see his numbers go down, independant of anything VH does. 

But wait. Minus the three games where TT played 12, 3, and 9 mins, his Knick average over 11 games is:

19.5 ppg 5.5 rpg.

How lame.

But however respectable that may or may not be, the mighty Van Horn must be well above those numbers in his 13 games:

18.6 ppg 6.7 rpg.

Wow, that's a real man.

VH gets 1 more rpg, which at a FG% of 50%, equals one extra ppg. And since TT has averaged 1 extra ppg over VH, they are in a virtual statistical tie.

Anyone care to add in Nazr versus Doleac? I really don't have the time to total these guys up too, but I will tell you that as a Nugget Doleac's greatest point production was 8 and greatest rebound production was 6 (seperate outings). As a Knick Nazr's greatest point production was 20 and rebs 18 (same outing, for whatever that's worth).

I don't make this stuff up.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

oak,if i have learned one thing from my profession its people see what they want to see...i make my living from statistics and every time i bet with my emotions,in the long run i suffer...

I see this behavior all the time.....The numbers can be right in front of you,but some people will rationalise a reason why things are not what they are....there is a book,i believe its "Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds"..Its a fascinating read..Here is a review



> Why do otherwise intelligent individuals form seething masses of idiocy when they engage in collective action? Why do financially sensible people jump lemming-like into harebrained speculative frenzies -- only to jump broker-like out of windows when their fantasies dissolve?





> Why do otherwise intelligent individuals form seething masses of in 1624--when tulip bulbs traded at a higher price than gold--suggest the existence of what I would dub "Mackay's Law of Mass Action": when it comes to the effect of social behavior on the intelligence of individuals, 1+1 is often considerably less than 1, and sometimes less than 0.


Its a fascinating read,and you will understand why it really doesnt matter whether you "Dont make things up",or if the stats are clearly skewed one way or another..Perception and emotion dont listen to the voice of reason,never have,and never will.....


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

BTW,liked your stats...Ill simplify it...KVH shoots more..He scores more.....

KVH was shooting well over 50% from 3 for a while..Did anyone not expect him to revert to the mean????:no:


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

I will try to teach you guys one last time. It is not so much the numbers as it is how and when the are accumulated. Stats are nice but they don't make for a complete story. As Disraeli wrote and was quoted by Mark twain.." There are three kinds of lies. Lies...damned lies..and statistics." Hold onto your numbers, guys, they don't mean much unless they have been qualified.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I Challenge you to bet against STATS and the odds and come out a winner in any game of chance over the long haul.......

As for Disraeli he was a novelist turned politican...Hes NO Einstein,Baruch or JP Morgan...

Define qualified


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

BTW Alfa,if you can teach me,show me or present insight on how to properly interpert data and stats in a meaningful way that increases expected return,I am all ears.....


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> KVH was shooting well over 50% from 3 for a while..Did anyone not expect him to revert to the mean????


*COUGHS in the general direction of Tim Thomas' shooting percentages*

While we're looking at one side of the arguement, let's ignore what applies to the other side.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

My good friend Rashidi,there is nothing about TT numbers that is as grossly out of line as KVH shooting over .540 from 3 point land....He is almost 200 basis points above his career!!!!

All of TT's stats are withinn 70 basis points of his average........

Cmon man,the numbers are right in front of you..........I know you look at them.....

Read em and STOP weeping


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> My good friend Rashidi,there is nothing about TT numbers that is as grossly out of line as KVH shooting over .540 from 3 point land....He is almost 200 basis points above his career!!!!


1. Van Horn is shooting .535 on 3's, that's below 54%, not above.

2. Van Horn is 23-43 with the Bucks.

3. Career % means nothing. Take out his first 2 seasons and calculate his 3pt shooting. He was shooting 37% with the Knicks this season AFTER shooting 24% for the first month of the season. Present history is a lot more relevant than 7 years ago. Scottie Pippen was a 20 point scorer 7 years ago. I shudder to think that KVH's shooting may have actually improved since he entered the league.

4. He is shooting .407 on the season, merely 60 points above his so called career average, and only 30 points higher than last year's 3pt%.

5. Tim Thomas' FG% is 50 points higher than his career average. That's a lot more significant than KVH's 3pt%. That's a trend that will go down a lot more than KVH's 3pt%



> Anyone care to add in Nazr versus Doleac?


Sure.

Vs Wizards
Brendan Haywood 11 points, 5 rebs
Kwame Brown 21 points, 6 rebs
Etan Thomas 15 points, 10 rebs

Vs Bucks
Brian Skinner 21 points, 13 rebs
Joe Smith 15 points, 12 rebs

Vs Sixers
Samuel Dalembert 4 points, 11 rebs
Kenny Thomas 25 points, 16 rebs

Vs Celtics
Mark Blount 15 points, 17 rebs
Brandon Hunter 6 points, 4 rebs

Vs Wizards
Brendan Haywood 7 points, 5 rebs
Kwame Brown 7 points, 7 rebs
Etan Thomas 8 points, 5 rebs

Vs Raptors
Chris Bosh 17 points, 7 rebs
Donyell Marshall 19 points, 11 rebs

Vs Sixers
Samuel Dalembert 19 points, 14 rebs
Kenny Thomas 21 points, 11 rebs

Vs Nuggets
Francisco Elson 12 points, 8 rebs
Nene 11 points, 9 rebs

Vs Clippers
Elton Brand 19 points, 12 rebs
Chris Wilcox 9 points, 8 rebs

Vs Kings
Vlade Divac 14 points, 7 rebs
Darius Songalia 17 points, 13 rebs 

Vs Cavs
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 31 points, 15 rebs
Carlos Boozer 14 points, 17 rebs

What we know so far is the Isiah Knicks are praised for barely scraping past the Wizards. The Layden Knicks are heavily criticized for losing to the Lakers. Something I'm sure won't change next year. Given Nazr's inability to hold backup centers, I shudder to think of what he's capable of against Jermaine O'Neal, Kenyon Martin, and Rasheed Wallace (one of whom the Knicks will face in the playoffs) much less a real center like Shaq or Tim Duncan. Why do you think we keep losing to scrub east teams? Remind me again how Nazr is a top 5 center in the east? It seems like he is worst 5 in terms of defense.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

So the difference in the Knicks is that they're missing Doleac's defense? Thanks for making such concise sense of it all.

I vote for Doleac as defensive player of the year.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> So the difference in the Knicks is that they're missing Doleac's defense? Thanks for making such concise sense of it all.


Please note that the Knicks essentially dumped Mutombo too when they picked up Nazr.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

KVH is shooting .535 from 3 point land which is less than he was one week ago...Numnut,go look gow much higher that is than his career 3 pt %....And dont conveniently make up stuff..I have an idea,go to Vegas and book an even money bet that KVH continues to shoot .535 from 3..Let me know when,and I will take all the action you can afford...And when your computer hgets repossessed I wont have to read your silliness

Rashidi,focus and reread what I said



> KVH was shooting well over 50% from 3 for a while..Did anyone not expect him to revert to the mean????


I didnt bring up all the other stuff you posted..you are arguing with yourself..as usual..thats why you go home alone at night to play with your Van Horn-y doll


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> I have an idea,go to Vegas and book an even money bet that KVH continues to shoot .535 from 3..


I have an idea, go to Vegas and book an even money bet that TT continues to shoot .500 from the field. 

Who cares about VH's 3pt%. The majority of VH's points do not come on 3's. He's taken a whopping 43 with Milwuakee, a very tiny sample size. Compare that to the field goals attempted by TT in NY. TT's FG% has a higher likelyhood of falling harder back to earth than VH because VH is only taking three 3's per game, while TT is taking a lot more than 3 FGs per game.

Or an even better idea, go to Vegas and book an even money bet that you will ever understand this.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> Please note that the Knicks essentially dumped Mutombo too when they picked up Nazr.


Please note that you did not note that when spewing your stats.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> I didnt bring up all the other stuff you posted..you are arguing with yourself..as usual..thats why you go home alone at night to play with your Van Horn-y doll


LMFAO!!!


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> Who cares about VH's 3pt%. The majority of VH's points do not come on 3's. He's taken a whopping 43 with Milwuakee, a very tiny sample size. Compare that to the field goals attempted by TT in NY. TT's FG% has a higher likelyhood of falling harder back to earth than VH because VH is only taking three 3's per game, while TT is taking a lot more than 3 FGs per game.
> 
> Or an even better idea, go to Vegas and book an even money bet that you will ever understand this.


I'm willing to bet no one here understands that. WTF are you trying to convince yourself of?


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Or an even better idea, go to Vegas and book an even money bet that you will ever understand this.


i dont have to go to Vegas to know I and you have no clue to what you are trying to say

But,I do know what you are trying to say,and for your info,you are presenting the exact wrong argument..you are actually taking my side...Imagine this an extreme example,to illustrate the point

Player A has made 90 0f 90 shots..shooting an unheard of 100%
Player B has made 2 of 3 shot,shooting .6666,still pretty good

Say player A goes 0 fot 10 in his next game..His % drops down to 90% after missing 10 straight shots...

Say player B goes 0 for 1 in his next game..misses just one shot..his shooting % drops to 50% ....

So you see,the player who has shot less shots will be subject much greater % swings...so i wouldnt make the bet u are proposing


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> 1. Van Horn is shooting .535 on 3's, that's below 54%, not above.
> ...


WTF are you talking about? We wanted Layden fired because we lost to the Lakers? Where have you been the last 3 years? I know you weren't a Knick fan anyway but were you isolated in a hole or something? Explain to me what excitement came out of watching a Knicks game that featured Eisley at starting PG, Othella Harrington/W'Spoon at PF, Van Horn at SF and Houston at SG with Thomas at C. And ofcourse the exciting bench with an overload of PF's and a guy with 1 knee we put our hopes on. And then last but not least, Scott Layden did absolutely NOTHING to make this team into even a PLAYOFF team. Isiah Thomas did. This game wouldn't have even gone to overtime with Layden and Eisley running the show. This game would have been a blowout of the Knicks by the Wizards. But the Garden is alive again and we are preparing for an exciting ride to the playoffs. It's something every real Knick fan understands and the people who want to pretend their Knick fans, never will.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

well said my young friend!!!


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> WTF are you talking about? We wanted Layden fired because we lost to the Lakers?


More specifically, because the team lost to good teams early when the schedule was tough. For all the talk about how the Knicks won't have to deal with the hole they dug early in the season, why should we think that they'll beat good teams if they struggle to beat the weaker teams with a supposedly improved roster?



> Explain to me what excitement came out of watching a Knicks game that featured Eisley at starting PG, Othella Harrington/W'Spoon at PF, Van Horn at SF and Houston at SG with Thomas at C.


Explain to me what excitement comes from watching the Knicks give their fans heart attacks, by losing on last second shots to the Celtics and Sixers (without Iverson or Big Dog) and barely scraping by the Bucks and Wizards. Call me when the Knicks play a .500 west team.



> And ofcourse the exciting bench with an overload of PF's and a guy with 1 knee we put our hopes on. And then last but not least, Scott Layden did absolutely NOTHING to make this team into even a PLAYOFF team. Isiah Thomas did.


The 8th seed. How valiant of him. Assuming of course, that the Knicks can actually hold on to it. Well worth giving up young players, draft picks, and cap room for. Or not.



> This game wouldn't have even gone to overtime with Layden and Eisley running the show. This game would have been a blowout of the Knicks by the Wizards.


Silly me, I forgot how much the win-loss record from last year has improved. And silly me, I almost forgot about how much *I* mention Howard Eisley.



> But the Garden is alive again and we are preparing for an exciting ride to the playoffs.


3 and out to the Pacers is exciting?



> It's something every real Knick fan understands and the people who want to pretend their Knick fans, never will.


Any real basketball fan understands that the 8th seed is not much of an accomplishment. The only reason Knick fans think so is because of 1999. Every other fan knows better. 3 years of losing will get you closer to a championship than 3 years of being the 8th seed will. 

A real Knick fan would want a championship. A real Knick fan would be willing to suffer through losing seasons to get there. Dallas did it. Sacramento did it. New Jersey did it. Even the Lakers did it for a year.

The Lakers got UNDER THE CAP to sign Shaq
The Lakers DRAFTED Eddie Jones
The Lakers DRAFTED Nick Van Exel
The Lakers DRAFTED Kobe Bryant

How many teams traded themselves into a championship, much less a finals appearance? You can't even make an arguement for Houston, because they had already won a championship the year before, they already had a core.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashid,I think you have made your points perfectly clear..Most of the people on the forum couldnt stomach layden any more..Under his management,we were no longer a playoff team,playing .375 ball when he got fired,and in my opinion,heading nowhere fast with a verrrrry boring team

You are clearly a Layden supporter,have bashed every move IT has made and choose not to give him a fraction of the time that you gave layden...You were not in favor of the marbury trade,not in favor of the KVH/Doloeac forTT and Naz and that is fine by me and the rest of the board...

In your mind we traded young players,i.e. lampe,RIGHTS to vujanic and a potential lottery pick..How old is Vujanic??Hes 24 and never played a minute in the NBA...How old is Marbury??He is 27 and an all star talent...So we picked up youth at the point relative to Eisly and Ward..

We gave up Lampe..true Big deal.. we picked up Demarr Johnson..Time will tell whos better..

All of a sudden making the playoffs is no big deal..When we were playing .350 ball,it was a big deal



> A real Knick fan would want a championship. A real Knick fan would be willing to suffer through losing seasons to get there. Dallas did it. Sacramento did it. New Jersey did it


rashidi,you were one of the few loyal knick fans who supported Layden,Eisly,Dyss and Chaney..You Liked this squad..When others suggested tanking the season and playing Lampe and Sweetney you were 100% opposed to it..Now that everyone you like got traded,you are a big proponent of rebuilding???????????

Rashidi,you have made you point..You would rather have Layden,Chaney,Eisly and KVH..You were cool with playing .375 ball and having an OLD club with NO future..You hate IT,you hate TT,and you dont like the Marbury trade and getting to the playoffs means nothing to you...

Can you please move on with your life???If you really dont like anything about the Knicks go find another team board...I couldnt care less if KVH shoots like crap,if eisly gets off the bench or if Layden is employed...They arent Knicks any more..GET IT????????


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 3 years of losing will get you closer to a championship than 3 years of being the 8th seed will.


I wonder what teams like Chicago and Atlanta would say about that.

If losing is the path to glory we should have hired layden for life, no one could bring down a franchse like him.

Now stop being a hypocrite. Nearly every trade that man made here brought longer contracts, or traded youth for age, or atleticism for slowness. And he didn't sign a single bargain contract. Please spell out what steps (other than losing, which he was brilliant at) he was going to take to bring a championship here.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> I wonder what teams like Chicago and Atlanta would say about that.


Atlanta started losing only recently. They are having problems because they haven't had fans since the Dominique days, that includes when they were winning with Lenny/Mutombo/Smith/Laettner. No fans = no money. No money = having to sell team. Selling team = dumping contracts to raise franchise value. Atlanta has a shot at getting home grown Dwight Howard this year. Or Okafor. Not exactly a bad start. Furthermore, the Hawks have not even been rebuilding for 5 years. It took teams like Dallas and Sacramento a lot more misery, and they have 50-60 win teams every year now. That's how it's always been.

CHICAGO? Please. I've gone over this. The Bulls drafted three, count them, THREE ALL-STARS. The problem is they traded them all. Brand, Artest, and Miller is a playoff team in the east, and easily the best front court in the east. Oh, and did we mention that the best player coming out of college tragically ruined his career with a knee injury? Yeah, as you were saying, how many other teams have failed rebuild projects?



> no one could bring down a franchse like him.


Just ask Utah.



> we picked up Demarr Johnson..Time will tell whos better..


DJ's signing was brought on by the injury to Houston. You are assuming two things. That Layden would not have signed DJ, and that DJ will re-sign with the Knicks next season to be the 12th man. There's no reason to think he's in for the long haul. Charlotte is a lot more likely to give him quality minutes than we are.



> Please spell out what steps (other than losing, which he was brilliant at) he was going to take to bring a championship here.


You would lose too if your owner forced your hand with brilliant business decisions. Like the Ewing trade and Houston signing. His only bad move was Clarence Weatherspoon's contract, which is no worse than the contract given to Eddie Robinson and every other player to get the mid-level when the exception was initially brought into the league.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

can we PLEASE end the Layden/Thomas discussion and the TT/NAZ for KVH/Doleac debate....??

rashidi,cant we discuss what is relevant to the current Knick team??

if not,why stop with Layden???Go to Grunfeld and earlier..At least its a different topic and players..

the problem is i can only present a limited # of stats on the same topic,but your supply of excuses is endless...................


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I'm with you truth, I'm gonna just drop these waste of time arguments. It's so old and obvious by now.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

The problem is,I dont think the TT camp cares one way or the other,so we just present numbers and stats.The other camp,the KVH side,doent like the trade,and didnt from day one,so their argument is obviously alot more subjective,which is why the impartial TT guys post the same retread over and over,and the KVH guys have numerous different view points..Alfa and Rashidi both dont favor the trade,yet they have completely different perspectives on TT's game...In fact radically different


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

Rashidi, once again you make absolutely 0 sense. Scott Layden was going to win them a championship? Scott Layden was going to rebuild? NY was going to rebuild? You can't rebuild in NY plain and simple. We were going to stink it up with Layden and Co. and the old losers till the end of his run, whcih didn't look like it would end very soon. But God felt sorry for us suffering Knick fans and fired the disgraced GM known as your beloved Layden, and gave us a savior, Isiah Thomas who brought a franchise player to NY, Stephon Marbury. Do you sit here today and tell me you believed the Knicks would have played Lampe, Sweetney and others and would have rebuilt that team? Ahahaha. Clueless fool. We wre losing with Lampe, Sweets, and Vranes rotting on the IR and our hopes lingered on a guy with 1 knee. You sit here and tell me you enjoyed THAT team better than THIS current Knicks team. What excitement comes from being in the playoffs? A lot. 3 and out. No it's a 7 game series, and we beat the Pacers once. In the playoffs, anything can happen. You aren't a Knick fan so again, why don't you just leave and enjoy your time on the Suns board!


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

A team with a failed rebuilding process besides the Bulls? The Clippers come into mind quickly. They were suppose to have enough talent to make the playoffs in the West last year, and they underachieved. I'd say that the clippers have had a failed rebuilding plan. Also, you have the teams that have good rebuilding projects and bad rebuilding projects. Can you be sure that the Knicks would have a good one? They could have, but I wouldn't place much faith in the old management... And Washington has been pretty bad for a while, same with Golden State. 

Rashidi, you seem so sure that the knicks won't make it out of the first round of th playoffs, if they even make it. I agree that the chances aren't really high, but I have enough faith in Marbury's ability, Houston's shooting, and my dark horse for the playoffs. Sweetney's hustle and rebounding, that the Knicks could pull off an upset and advance. Yes, I believe Sweetney can become this years Prince and shine in the playoffs as a little used rookie. We don't even know if we are playing the Pacers in round 1, we could easily get the #6 seed in a week. 


And btw, NYKFan123? I think you should get off Rashidi's case about being a Suns fan and Eisley lover. Rashidi does have a point when he says that we/you bring up Eisley a lot more than he does. Most times you post it is about Rashidi and him being a Suns fan/Eisley lover and you blast him. That is probably one of the reasons Rashidi is emotional sometimes, you know. It would be better for us all if you stopped that IMO.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Rashidi, you seem so sure that the knicks won't make it out of the first round of th playoffs, if they even make it.


The thing is now he's making it seem like making the playoffs with a weak team is worse than getting a lottery pick, which has some merit, but he was hoping the Layden team would make the playoffs.

:whoknows:


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> The thing is now he's making it seem like making the playoffs with a weak team is worse than getting a lottery pick, which has some merit, but he was hoping the Layden team would make the playoffs.


That is precisely why most of these arguments arise....There is nothing wrong with liking Layden,Cheney and whoever else..We are all fans..But he was the biggest supporter of the team when everyone was HATING Layden...And thats totally cool..He said give it a chance,lets wait and see....

He still supported them when the were playing .350 ball,and taled about the tough schedule and it will ease up...He felt that we had a shot at the playoffs...

I had to pry it out of him to answer what he felt IT's knicks had to do,to be deemed successful.From what he implied,it was MAKE the playoffs..Now when thats a reality,its a BAD thing..

I guarantee the next counter will be we mortgaged the future,lost our youth,and will never be able to win a championship..

I dont disagree with Rashidis assessment that getting a high lottery pick is better long term than getting knocked out of the playoffs..But its a COMPLETE reversal of everything that applied to Laydens Knicks....And its not like he is subtle about it..He is IN YOUR FACE about it.....


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> but he was hoping the Layden team would make the playoffs.


The Layden team still gets a draft pick if it makes the playoffs.

Kings lose for 9 years
Kings steal Webber for Richmond
Kings *draft* J-Will, steal Bibby for J-Will
Kings *draft Peja
Kings sign Divac
Kings sign Bobby Jackson
Kings sign Pollard, steal Miller for Pollard

It takes more than trading to build a dynasty.*


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> The Layden team still gets a draft pick if it makes the playoffs.


True,but is it a draft pick that will get us any closer to the promise land??Thats where we COMPLETELY disagree..You can keep the number 9 pick in the draft....If you are talking about winning it all and rebuilding,we should have tanked this season,played Sweetney and Lampe and gotten a really high draft pick..NO PLAYOFFS!!!!!!!



> It takes more than trading to build a dynasty.


You are dead right..That is why I said LONG ago,NUKE the Knicks..Scrap them..Thats step number 1....Step number 2,Get the high Lottery picks...Step 3,Clear cap space...Step 4,Pray that ping pong ball bounces your way...Step 5...Pray you can get a Shaq or a Tim Duncan-like player thru free agency..

Teeling me the Layden team still gets a draft pick,just PERPETUATES the problem....

I think your method gets you to be an OK team,nothing great...

And I for one HATED watching Ward,Eisly,Spoon and the rest of that team..IT was BRUTAL......


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Scrapping the old team was exactly what I was in favor of doing. With the onerous contracts, age of players, and a level of play only good enough to get a late lottery or first round pick, I saw no way to build a championship team. I was perfectly willing to go from scratch. Rash was right about some of the teams that failed to retool in a reasonable amount of time. The Bulls are a great example. They had several pieces but traded them away and then made some questionable picks...re: Fizer. The clips are a whole nother animal. A series of questionable picks plus the fact they could not attract free agents nor keep the guys that were worth keeping kept them from forging ahead. Make no mistake, I support the current team but I don't see how it can be made into a title contender before some of the key pieces are too old or gone. I want a title..period.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

This is what mr rashidi doesn't get is we traded our draft pick for an allstar. It's hard to draft an allstar. What allstar has Layden ever drafted in his... what... dozen or so years in the league? For that matterm what allstar *in good condition* did he ever even trade for - and I include his time in Utah? 

Layden traded first round picks for Jackson and Harrington!!! That's long term thinking???

Jeesh, if we were talking about another GM it'd be one thing, but rashidi is defending layden! The man had a win-now directive and the team got worse every year he was here. It started in the finals and ended in the lottery -- and not by design.

I don't know who's more insane, him for defending Layden, or me for wasting my time arguing against him. 

Wait... I do know... me.

Bye


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Alfa,first and foremost,to win a title you need a little luck and then some basketball savvy...

rashidi is almost always insightful when talking about teams or players he is NOT emotionally involved with...



> I want a title..period.


Alfa,we all want that..But LAYDEN blew that opportunity....The Dyss trade was the nail in the coffin....In the perfect world we would have kept Camby and drafted Amare....But lets move on...

You and I both agree that we had to NUKE the Knicks and start all over....Dolan,Layden,whoever would not do that.....

So,what were our options???
Hold on to Lampe,Sweetney,rights to Vujanic and hope we could get a late first round draft pick???Its gonna take lampe and Vujanic at least 3 years to develop into studs,assuming they have what it takes...

Do you like a young core of

RIGHTS to Vujanic,who is 24
Lampe
Sweets
KVH 

or

Marbury
Naz
TT 
Sweets
Demar Johnson

You think either of those options are viable contenders????
If you are talking NBA finals,Dolan and Layden blew it with the Mcdyss trade..That was when we should have said its time to rebuild,drafted Amare and started fresh..Do NOT blame that on Isiah Thomas..


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I am one step behind OAK.......

For all you born again "I want a Title,nothing less" people,at least be fair and non emotional in your posts....Look at the team under Dolan and Layden and tell me what title shot you had with that duo in the forseeable future.....

I mean lets be real..You guys keep on bringing up Vujanic,yet our GM could not get him over here...And if you tell me he LOVED europe,or was making big bucks there,then dont you think the GM should have known that???Or paid him more to get him here NOW??Considering we really bet the future on the Dyss trade and got nothing for it...

everybody wants a title in NY...But stop saying thats what you want and how we are no closer...POST what should have been done,what we should do NOW....

Accept that Layden destroyed any hope with that insane McDyss trade...We could have had a core of Camby,Amare,Sweetney,Lampe and Vujavic and HIGH draft picks...

Dont blame any of that on IT..he came in after Layden and Dolan buried us.....
You guys are sooo quick to point out whats wrong..How about coming up with a solution.....


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

You know it's very possible that Nene, who's right we traded AWAY, and who DOES want to play in the NBA, will be an allstar before Lampe reaches puberty or Vapornic decides to board a US bound flight.

Rights to someone who doesn't want to be here, a tall skinny kid who looked good in summer league, and a late round pick does not make a championship. Certainly not in concert with a 36 yr old battered kneed Houston, Eisley, Spoon, Shandon, Travis Knight and Harrington.

I mean what am I missing, that sounds like the worst team in the league. What free agent in the world would want to join that club, let alone thinks he could save it?


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Number one, I am not and never was a Layden supporter. Number two, the two rosters you are comparing ..well..it doesn't make sense...from either side. The roster with Lampe is far younger and more inexperienced so it is hard to know if they are better or if they are not. I suspect they WILL be better but not now....maybe never. I also think that this current roster does not have as much "upside" as many of you think. Nazr is as much of an unknown as Lampe in terms of ending up a star. He is currently better, no doubt. Vujanic? Who knows? I think he was dragging his feet becuase NY was loaded with 1's long term and who wants to sit. All you have to do he see how Chaney worked with Frank...and he was the THIRD pg on the roster already. Vujanic makes more in Europe than he would have here. Speculation that he didn't want tp play in the NBA or with the Knicks should be taken with a grain of salt...we just don't know because the circumstances were not in his favor. I didn't like the McDyess trade..I thought it was a step in the wrong direction. I wanted Wilcox or Nene. While I can understand people liking the current squad, I can't understand how they think IT can make it significantly better given how far and for how long we are cap-bound and seeing that we have lost 2 out of the next 3 first rounders. I figure Houston has 2 or 3 years, Hardaway is already looking old. We are solid at point and maybe SF(not my cup of tea but whatever) center is a question, shooting guard will be soon and unless Sweets keeps improving, PF will be an issue before we are free of cap problems. My biggest problem is NOT with the roster as much as it is with absolutely giving up almost all flexibility for the foreseeable future. My opinion will change if IT manages to procure anymore top fight player, picks, or free agents.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

interesting Alfa..but you ask,or state



> Number two, the two rosters you are comparing ..well..it doesn't make sense...from either side. The roster with Lampe is far younger and more inexperienced so it is hard to know if they are better or if they are not. I suspect they WILL be better but not now....maybe never. I also think that this current roster does not have as much "upside" as many of you think.


But Alfa,What doesnt make sense???????This is what we have been discussing ad nauseum...Its clear we werent going to start from scratch...So either we went with the "future" under layden,or we chose the "future" under Thomas...

This is the first time I have ever seen you waffle:sour:

for those who just joined in these are the 2 rosters..

Layden youthsquad
RIGHTS to Vujanic,who is 24
Lampe 19
Sweets 22
KVH 28
and draft picks


ISiah youth squad
Marbury 27
Naz 27
TT 27
Sweets 22
Demar Johnson 24

Alfa,you took both sides of the argument and essentially said nothing..Which route would you have chosen,or is it 6 of one,half dozen of another...And check out my post and put your 2 cents in..But you have to have input


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Which would I take? No waffling, there...I'd take the Lampe squad. Since I have jettisoned Layden, I see no reason not to add Dermarr to that squad as well since he was a freebie. I also have a back up center in Doleac, a front court guy with value in KT, a young pg in Frank Williams. A probable lottery pick this year, a nice first rounder next, and then contracts become less immovable since they have less time left. Let's see...

Williams
Houston
Van Horn
Thomas
Lampe

Vujanic/Eisley(ugh)
Dermarr/Anderson
Dermarr/Anderson
Sweetney/Harrington
Doleac/Mutombo


IR moves will be needed and the next 2 drafts would be used to fill out the team. In 2 years the team would hopefully be good enough to start attracting a major start by year 3. Young, fairly athletic, up tempo team that needs some defense and toughness in the back court. Your squad woould beat mine now but probably not in 3 years.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

interesting....so you are in the layden camp...hmmmm


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

For those who opposed this years moves, was a championship really on your radar when we were at .333? Changes were made because this team, with the highest payroll in the land, in cap hell till who knows when, with a leadership gap the size of the mighty Hudson, with no real point guard since Frazier (asaide from a brief stint with a young mark jackson and an old dereck harper), and no center who could play more than half a game, was wallowing at the bottom of the league.

A franchise player was brought in for our UNPROVEN talent, and now all references are to the championship lost?

Vujanic (no show) and Lampe were second round picks. If that's what you want to build a franchise around I have good news, we still have second round picks this year, so the championship may not be lost after all.


----------



## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

Lampe was not worth a second round pick though. Nbadraft.net had him at like 11th and even as high as 5th to miami. He slipped out of the lottery, and then the teams in the teens and 20s never worked him out so they didnt take a chance on him. Also, teams passed on him because of his contract situation that arised on draft day that nobody knew about. Why do you think he had those VIP seats with his own table on draft night? We were all ecstatic to get this guy, and he was a great pick.

When Layden wasnt trading away our draft picks for scrubs, he actually drafted some pretty good guys. his only real first round pick was mike sweetney, and he got a steal in the second round with Milos (whether he came or not) and Postell, who is a decent second round pick to make up for checkets not taking artest(which failed badly).

the place where layden killed us were his trades and free agent signings. we all know this. but he was pretty good in drafts.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Jeesh, if we were talking about another GM it'd be one thing, but rashidi is defending layden! The man had a win-now directive and the team got worse every year he was here. It started in the finals and ended in the lottery -- and not by design.


You seem to be confused with the term "directive". Layden didn't set the direction of the team. Neither does IT for that matter. *Dolan does*. Dolan's direction is he wants to win, to compete with the YES network for NY Cable supremacy. The Knicks are not trying to win basketball games for a championship, they are trying to make money. If Dolan decides that TT is bad for the image of the Knicks, Isiah will have to trade him. The owner signs the checks, the owner has the final say on all moves. And the owner has the authority to make moves without the general manager's consent. Just ask Patrick Ewing, Allan Houston, and Latrell Sprewell.

Layden was able to add to Utah's core with some strong drafting, and helped turn a good team into a 1st place Finals team, for 2 years straight mind you. This was at the very least a 10th place team with injuries and without contributions from Sweetney, Lampe, or Vujanic.

It's worth noting that without the McDyess trade, the Knicks don't get Marbury, plain and simple. It's mathematical really. The Knicks didn't just trade Camby for McDyess. They also traded Mark Jackson. Jackson's contract expired last offseason. The Marbury deal doesn't work without McDyess, because Camby doesn't make enough, and Jackson wouldn't have a 5 million dollar expiring contract to trade. In fact, how many other Knicks are coming off the cap this year? Travis Knight was, but the team already waived him. Since the primary reason the Suns made the deal was for cap room, it's pretty much a deal breaker if you only have 8 million worth of it to trade.

And "It started in the Finals?" This is the kind of unrealistic banter that leads NYers to settle for 6-8th seed. The Knicks were VERY, VERY, VERY lucky to make it to the NBA Finals. Tim Hardaway played the first round on a bum knee, and Larry Johnson baited Alonzo Mourning into a fight that caused him to miss game 5, a game the knicks won on an incredibly lucky bounce on Houston's final shot. What would have started was firing Van Gundy and gutting the roster.

Further, the Lenny Hawks were pushovers, Lenny teams typically had good regular season records and folded in the playoffs. They had no bench and were weak offensively. The Pacers meanwhile were still starting Chris Mullin over Jalen Rose, throw in Mark Jackson, Reggie Miller, and hobbling Rik Smits, and you've got a horribly unathletic and weaker than usual Pacer team that would have won had it not been for a phantom foul on a Larry Johnson 3pter. I liked the Knick team, but there isn't any other year in NBA History that they would have been able to go to the Finals. There's a reason the lockout season was considered an asterisk year. By everybody except those in NY it would seem.


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

I was not a fan of Layden..no, far from it. But as Rashidi said, Lampe was projected as a lottery pick. He was downgraded because of percieved contract obligations. Vujanic was drafted as a sleeper. I didn't say I wanted to build around these guys..I said that I liked them as a core. You still need a real 1st tier star(not neccessarily a top 20 all-time, but a real star), a supporting 2nd tier star(and more if you are lucky), and a solid supporting cast. In my opinion, Marbury is between a first and second tier, but being a point guard its harder to be a first tier unless you are also a great scorer. I think Kidd is the exception. Marbury could get there but he has to shoot a better % from distance. As I said, Kidd is the exception. Who will be the second star? TT? Maybe, we'll see. If that happens then you guys are right. If not, then I am, because without someone to be Festus to Marbury's Marshall Dillon, they will only go so far. At least with my way we have some picks and cap space in 3 years...enough to lure a top player.
BTW, I was not happy with .333 except that it was looking like Okafor, Dwight Howard. Let me put it this way: if we were able to draft Howard and he turns into Weber, Tmac, or Bryant, the Knicks could have been a dynasty like the kings, or Lakers. Although the Kings have won nothing yet, they will. I would have taken the season as a loss, taken the pick, fired Layden and Chaney, and took my lumps until some of these contracts were able to be moved..or they expired. Like I said, its not so much the people on the team as it is that we seem to be a one way street with no place to change direction, and that scares me. If things go south or just don't progress, we are so screwed for YEARS.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> ISiah youth squad
> Marbury 27
> Naz 27
> TT 27
> ...


As has been said, DJ was signed because of Houston's injury. There is no reason to believe that Layden wouldn't have signed DJ either, nor is there any reason to believe that he will be back next year. 27 isn't exactly young in the NBA. Players typically peak at 27-28, enter their primes where they play at that level for 4 years, and then begin decline at 31-32. The average age of that group minus DJ is 25.75. The average age of the Layden group you mentioned is 23.25, not including the age of the draft picks you mentioned.

While we're at it...
Mutombo 38
Houston 33
Hardaway 33
KT 32
Baker 31
Anderson 31
Norris 31
Harrington 30
Marbury 27
Nazr 27
TT 27
Trybanski 25
Williams 24
Johnson 24
Sweetney 22
Total 435 (29)

Mutombo 38
Ward 34
Houston 33
KT 32
Eisley 32
Weatherspoon 32
Anderson 31
McDyess 30
Harrington 30
Van Horn 29
Doleac 27
Williams 24
Sweetney 22
Vranes 21
Lampe 19
Total 434 (28.9)

Both teams were roughly the same age. Except one had more options and draft picks. The other is roughly going to be the same team as it was last year. It also isn't worth comparing rosters directly, since Layden never got a chance to make a trade this season, while IT just picked up his paperwork and got rolling. It was a given that Ward was gone in January because of his contract. Baker and Johnson likely would have signed with the Knicks, regardless of who the GM was.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Alpha, I say this respectfully. May i make a request/suggestion that you make shorter paragraphs. Long paragraphs make for a hard read on the internet.

You and I are not in much disagreement in fact.



> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> You still need a real 1st tier star(not neccessarily a top 20 all-time, but a real star), a supporting 2nd tier star(and more if you are lucky), and a solid supporting cast. In my opinion, Marbury is between a first and second tier, but being a point guard its harder to be a first tier unless you are also a great scorer. As I said, Kidd is the exception. Who will be the second star? TT? Maybe, we'll see.


Well the deal in my mind was certainly predicated on having a productive Houston. He was supposed to be our first option, then Marbury, VH or TT would sorta vie for 2nd and 3rd. While Marbury can score, I think this team would work best with him as a strong third option -- not first.

If Houston is shot, which he may be, if not now then soon, than it may indeed have been a bad deal.

But a lot also depended on if/when/where Vujanic was thinking to play.




> At least with my way we have some picks and cap space in 3 years...enough to lure a top player.


I love this site for contracts, it's the best:

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

Now please note that the former team was never going to get under the cap until Houston and Anderson's contracts expire end of '07. But you can see that when that happens now the only players we will have will be a young Sweetney and Marbury in his prime who you'd want. I mean really, what's the point of getting under the cap to obtain a top player if he has no one to play with? But the point is, from a cap perspective we are not much worse off than before. And for those of us who like Marbury, it will be nice to have him here in his prime of 30, when we can add a FA to him.




> I would have taken the season as a loss, taken the pick, fired Layden and Chaney, and took my lumps until some of these contracts were able to be moved..or they expired. Like I said, its not so much the people on the team as it is that we seem to be a one way street with no place to change direction, and that scares me. If things go south or just don't progress, we are so screwed for YEARS.


I agree to an extent. In the beginning of the season I rooted for the Knicks to lose. I wanted to get a lottery pick for my suffering and force the hand of Dolan to dump Layden and Chaney. That was plan A.

But Isiah and the trade came along and it was plan B. To get a new franchise player to play along with some of our present expensive talent and give us a team worth rooting for agin, before the mold on our eyes and on the Garden floor became too toxic. I'm willing to run with that option to see what it's worth. There is some merit in obtaining a star player now, when you have Houston, and had VH, rather than clearing the decks to afford one as an FA. In effect you'd be betting that, 1) the free agent you were able to get would be better than a young Marbury (not an easy assumption) and, 2) that Lampe and Vapornic (who I have no faith he'd have come) would be better than VH and Houston. Otherwise might as well do it now rather than then.

I just wasn't willing to see Layden given time to re-sign McKnee (love that) give Chaney another extension, trade a first round draft pick for Dale Davis, and on and on. I was really afraid of what might be.

How long were you willing to wait while this team went down and down without
a plan? I know my patience expired when LJ retired and Layden didn't file
the papers in time to get his salary off the cap. That's when I knew this
ship was without a captain, and the win-loss record shows ho fast it's been sinking.

I think the time to rebuild would have been when we traded away Rice. His enormous contract was do to come off the books this year. We could have traded him for short term contract(s) and picks. Instead we took on Eisley and
Anderson (thru 07'). And of course if a rebuild were in the air there would have also been no Spoon, or picks for Mark Jackson and Harrington, etc.

So I'm with you to the extent that, if I trusted that we were going to stop going for short-term fixes and build for the long term, that's the direction I would have gone. But the owner said there was no time, fix what you've got, and under the circumstances, and in short time, I
thing Isiah's done a nice job.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> You seem to be confused with the term "directive". Layden didn't set the direction of the team. Neither does IT for that matter. *Dolan does*. Dolan's direction is he wants to win, to compete with the YES network for NY Cable supremacy. The Knicks are not trying to win basketball games for a championship, they are trying to make money. If Dolan decides that TT is bad for the image of the Knicks, Isiah will have to trade him. The owner signs the checks, the owner has the final say on all moves. And the owner has the authority to make moves without the general manager's consent. Just ask Patrick Ewing, Allan Houston, and Latrell Sprewell.


I'm not at all confused with the term directive. I siad Layden had a win-now directive. He did, it was given to him by Dolan. Duh! Why are you trying to argue with me when we both know that to be the case. The difference is that Isiah has suceeded in the directive while Layden failed.

My god, this is so obvious, but lets go thru it. The knicks had a tough year in 1998-99, with Ewing coming into camp out of shape after his stint with the players union, new players in Camby and Spreweel, and Patricks injury on the heels of Houstons broken wrist. With all that they went 27-23 .540 and came in fourth in their division (Atlantic) but scraped it's way to the finals.

Layden took over the next year 1999-00, making no significant changes and the team went 50-32 .610 and came in second.

2000-01, 48-34 .585 3rd in Atlantic
2001-02, 30-52 .366 7th (lottery)
2002-03, 37-45 .451 5th (lottery)
2003-04, I forget his record when he left, but it was well below .400 and well out of the playoffs.

You keep saying he was fired because of a loss to the Lakers, but he was fired for the reasons you stat Dolan wanted a winning team and he could not/did not produce. Plain and simple.




> Layden was able to add to Utah's core with some strong drafting, and helped turn a good team into a 1st place Finals team, for 2 years straight mind you.


Name me the other NBA teams with 2 Hall of Famers , who played together for a significant period of time in their primes, who did not win championships.

He inherited one of the greatest combination of players every to play the game. Some consider both Stockton and Malone the best players to ever play their positions. And you can add in that Sloan is/was a phenomenal coach. He had them together for, what, 16 or 18 years, and for much of that time they were easy outs in the playoffs. Most of that time they couldn't win the west. Those guys never winning a championship is one of the greatest failures in modern NBA history.




> It's worth noting that without the McDyess trade, the Knicks don't get Marbury, plain and simple.


Oy, lets credit him because someone was able to salvage his mistake?



> In fact, how many other Knicks are coming off the cap this year? Travis Knight was, but the team already waived him.


Yes another brilliant move by the master tactician, waive an expiring contract when it's at peak trade value.



> Further, the Lenny Hawks were pushovers, Lenny teams typically had good regular season records and folded in the playoffs.


Huh, kinda like Utah. With a first class coach and two of the best who ever played the game they went out in the first round more than they went to the westen conference finals.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> I know my patience expired when LJ retired and Layden didn't file


glad you brought that up....I couldnt beleive that occured when i read about it..not only that,the excuse was,no one had been in touch with LJ for months...Bizzare and unacceptable



> I didn't say I wanted to build around these guys..I said that I liked them as a core. You still need a real 1st tier star(not neccessarily a top 20 all-time, but a real star), a supporting 2nd tier star(and more if you are lucky), and a solid supporting cast


jus out of curiousity,how do you rate the Pistons as far as "stars"??

Billups
Wallace
Ben
Rip


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Like I said, I wasn't a fan of Layden..and especially not the Dolans..give me Steinbrenner. I disagree slightly on Houston. I always thought of him as a second tier guy who is on the way down. If he is healthy, along with Marbury, then the only issue left to resolve is TT. If he brings his game to a star level...and that means being more than a taller Houston(apologies to Truth, but it does fit), then they may go somewhere. It seems to hinge on TT getting much better, and H2O not shrinking to much too soon. I still feel trapped because that is a fragile team with no flexibility.


As far as contracts coming off in '07, that is fine by me. It is 3 years away and the team would have been a playoff team not going far until then. Some success now for alot in the near future. I could live with that for a shot at James, 'Melo, or some real stud or studs at that time. You also appear to disregard the possibility of moving one or more of those contracts(which would be near expiration) for a star that is refusing to re-sign with his team. Getting a large contract that expires the following year is not a bad way to free up cap space for many teams.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> ...and that means being more than a taller Houston(apologies to Truth, but it does fit


Hey no need to apologise...I said the EXACT same thing in the "I am not happy thread"...I do not like TT posting up every play.I want him to slash,and take guys off the dribble facing the basket..I want him to elevate his game,and not be a taller Houston..

Two things.....Just like i wasnt enamored with Sweetney and now i think the guy is awesome..I think you guys read me wrong..I am a Knick fan,no emotional ties to anybody,so I think i have less subjectivity and passion than other posters..I liked KVH...alot..I think he got a really ****ty deal when he was traded..I had NO opinion whatsoever on TT....Now that I have seen him,there is no doubt in my mind that he is more athletic than Van Horn and POTENTALLY a very very talented guy...But just like you said,I dont want a taller version of H20....Its not a bad thing,but the Knicks need that second superstar..TT has the tools,but he has to use em...Time will tell


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

This thread makes my head hurt.


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> This thread makes my head hurt.


Agreed.  

Some Obervations frmo this thread....



> I liked the Knick team, but there isn't any other year in NBA History that they would have been able to go to the Finals. There's a reason the lockout season was considered an asterisk year. By everybody except those in NY it would seem.


Maybe it is true, but Rashidi, you live in NY and you are a Knicks fan, yet you "understand." =P



> As has been said, DJ was signed because of Houston's injury. There is no reason to believe that Layden wouldn't have signed DJ either, nor is there any reason to believe that he will be back next year. 27 isn't exactly young in the NBA. Players typically peak at 27-28, enter their primes where they play at that level for 4 years, and then begin decline at 31-32. The average age of that group minus DJ is 25.75. The average age of the Layden group you mentioned is 23.25, not including the age of the draft picks you mentioned.
> 
> While we're at it...
> Mutombo 38
> ...


I fail to see how age really matters that much. You can have an old team that wins championships, the Bulls in the late 90's and the Lakers are getting pretty old, and you can have young teams who can't do jack, the Bulls and Clippers. We have no idea if IT's or Layden's youth team would be a good team or a crap team, we can only guess.



> Lampe was not worth a second round pick though. Nbadraft.net had him at like 11th and even as high as 5th to miami. He slipped out of the lottery, and then the teams in the teens and 20s never worked him out so they didnt take a chance on him. Also, teams passed on him because of his contract situation that arised on draft day that nobody knew about. Why do you think he had those VIP seats with his own table on draft night? We were all ecstatic to get this guy, and he was a great pick.
> 
> When Layden wasnt trading away our draft picks for scrubs, he actually drafted some pretty good guys. his only real first round pick was mike sweetney, and he got a steal in the second round with Milos (whether he came or not) and Postell, who is a decent second round pick to make up for checkets not taking artest(which failed badly).
> 
> the place where layden killed us were his trades and free agent signings. we all know this. but he was pretty good in drafts.


Maybe Layden did do OK in the picks he actually got, but seriously, how many picks did he have? In four years we had 1 first round pick? That is pretty bad. For all we know Layden, who didn't seem like he wanted to rebuild at all, would have traded our lottery pick himself for some other aging player just so the Knicks could make the playoffs. How do we know that Layden wouldn't have traded picks away too? Following historical trends Layden would have traded our pick away, maybe to Portland for Rasheed? I don't know, but how can we be sure Layden was going to rebuild while all indications said no? Lampe wasn't playing, Layden didn't make a big effort to sign Vujanic, Sweetney wasn't playing either. I saw no signs of rebuilding. In fact, I think many of us wanted to blow up the team and startover again, but now that it isn't possible, some of us just want things to go smoothly now.


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

Lampe fell into Layden's lap. Sweetney was Layden's only choice that I was shocked he made because it was so good. I never opposed it nor did I like it because he's playing well now. Chaney never played the kid and even I started to doubt him. But now he gets playing time and delivers. Vujanic. Layden couldn't get him here for 2 years. What made you think he would come over the 3rd year for Layden. Face it, the guy was afraid of NY. Plus he was also afraid of playing BEHIND Eisley and Ward, which wouldn't have happened. Praise Isiah, screw Layden and the old, disgraceful regime!


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> 2001-02, 30-52 .366 7th (lottery)
> 2002-03, 37-45 .451 5th (lottery)
> 2003-04, I forget his record when he left, but it was well below .400 and well out of the playoffs.
> 
> You keep saying he was fired because of a loss to the Lakers, but he was fired for the reasons you stat Dolan wanted a winning team and he could not/did not produce. Plain and simple.


You can attribute 01-02 to Marcus Camby's health more than Layden's moves. In 02-03 they essentially played without him, just gave larger roles to Anderson and Eisley, and won 7 more games. That team would make the playoffs this year, they'd be slotted for the 8th seed. Right now the Knicks are slotted for the 7th seed (32-38, .456). My, what an improvement.

And I keep saying he was fired for the Knicks losing to good teams. Like the Lakers for instance. The IT Knicks have hardly faced any worthy competition, the Knicks did that in the first half of the season, that's why their record was so poor. I have only been saying this ALL SEASON LONG so it is understandable if you do not remember it. Layden's Knicks have more wins against high quality teams than the IT Knicks do. The Knicks may be a .500 team since the change, but they haven't faced the same competition. Have they even gone on a 5 game road trip?



> Name me the other NBA teams with 2 Hall of Famers , who played together for a significant period of time in their primes, who did not win championships.


Go talk to Michael Jordan. In 1997 the Jazz were the closest any team was to defeating the Bulls in the Finals. The series was tied 2-2 and they were winning with 45 seconds left. Then Jordan stole the ball from Karl Malone, and that was the series.



> Oy, lets credit him because someone was able to salvage his mistake?


No, I'm talking strict math. Without McDyess' contract, trading for Marbury is IMPOSSIBLE.



> Yes another brilliant move by the master tactician, waive an expiring contract when it's at peak trade value.


Who else were they going to waive, Othella Harrington or Michael Doleac?



> Huh, kinda like Utah. With a first class coach and two of the best who ever played the game they went out in the first round more than they went to the westen conference finals.


Huh?
99-00, 55-27, 2nd seed, SECOND ROUND (Lost to #3 Blazers)
98-99, 37-13, 3rd seed, SECOND ROUND (Lost to #2 Blazers)
97-98, 62-20, 1st seed, NBA FINALS (Lost to Bulls)
96-97, 64-18, 1st seed, NBA FINALS (Lost to Bulls)
95-96: 55-27, 3rd seed, CONFERENCE FINALS (Lost to Sonics)
94-95: 60-22, 3rd seed, FIRST ROUND (Lost to Champion Rockets)
93-94: 53-29, 5th seed, CONFERENCE FINALS (Lost to Champion Rockets)

Perhaps you are confused, or perhaps you just did not watch Utah during their prime.



> I fail to see how age really matters that much. You can have an old team that wins championships, the Bulls in the late 90's and the Lakers are getting pretty old, and you can have young teams who can't do jack, the Bulls and Clippers. We have no idea if IT's or Layden's youth team would be a good team or a crap team, we can only guess.


Yes but veteran teams win when they have good veterans. Tim Thomas and Nazr Mohammed need not apply. Veteran teams usually know how to play defense. Again, Tim Thomas and Nazr Mohammed need not apply. The Bulls were on the right track. And the Clippers will never be winners because Donald Sterling knows how profitable losing can be. He let Olowokandi, Odom, and Andre Miller leave for NOTHING, and this was viewed as good? Miller was aquired for Miles, so essentially he just threw away the #1, 3, and 4 picks from drafts over the last couple years for NOTHING.



> give me Steinbrenner


Steinbrennar only wins because there is no salary cap in baseball. The Knicks already have had Steinbrennar in charge for the last 10 years, that's the problem.



> Lampe wasn't playing, Layden didn't make a big effort to sign Vujanic, Sweetney wasn't playing either. I saw no signs of rebuilding. In fact, I think many of us wanted to blow up the team and startover again, but now that it isn't possible, some of us just want things to go smoothly now.


Lampe: 18 years old. For further reference, see Darko.
Vujanic: Layden made push but he took more money and playing time to stay in Europe another year.
Sweetney: Out of shape and had not earned minutes from vets in practice. Spoon and Harrington didn't get off the bench when McDyess came back either.



> But you can see that when that happens now the only players we will have will be a young Sweetney and Marbury in his prime who you'd want.


And Kurt Thomas.



> Plus he was also afraid of playing BEHIND Eisley and Ward, which wouldn't have happened


Don't forget that he'd be playing behind Houston/Anderson too.  Ward will be gone next season, a main reason he didn't come this year.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashidi,do you have to be so darn thorough???i honestly would love to yout post,but the length is just killing me


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> Rashidi,do you have to be so darn thorough???i honestly would love to yout post,but the length is just killing me


Agreed.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Folks, don't let the length of Rashidis posts deter you, it's mostly fluff.

However, he does answer two of us in one post, so it's long enough that I'm only answering to what's directed at me.



> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> You can attribute 01-02 to Marcus Camby's health more than Layden's moves. In 02-03 they essentially played without him, just gave larger roles to Anderson and Eisley, and won 7 more games. That team would make the playoffs this year, they'd be slotted for the 8th seed. Right now the Knicks are slotted for the 7th seed (32-38, .456). My, what an improvement.


That team wasn't without Houston, it's main scorer, for 20+ games.

In fact wasn't that your big defense of the last years team, that with Spree in the line-up they were a .500 team? Now this team is .500 without Houston, 7 new players, no training camp, two coaches.... and you diss them?



> And I keep saying he was fired for the Knicks losing to good teams. Like the Lakers for instance.


That's why you say he was fired. I say it's because he did not upgrade the team at one single position in 5 seasons. The only thing that went up was the payroll. Oh, and losses.



> The IT Knicks have hardly faced any worthy competition, the Knicks did that in the first half of the season, that's why their record was so poor. I have only been saying this ALL SEASON LONG so it is understandable if you do not remember it. Layden's Knicks have more wins against high quality teams than the IT Knicks do.


Do they (Layden's Knicks) have a higher winning percentage against quality teams, or just more wins because they played more games against them?

And why do you put so much emphasis on the schedule for Laydens team and not even consider Houston's abscense for Isiah's?

The fact is that these Knicks have had no training camp, no stability, and poor health. Their true test will be next year. Layden had 5 years to show he sucked, these guys have had less than 5 weeks (trade deadline was Feb 19th). 

5 weeks, WITH an injured Houston, and they're playing .500 ball!!!



> The Knicks may be a .500 team since the change, but they haven't faced the same competition. Have they even gone on a 5 game road trip?


Sir, the IT Knicks have been a .500 team without Houston, their main scorer. Can you imagine the record of Layden's Knicks without him? A starting backcourt of Eisley and Anderson.... shudder...




> Go talk to Michael Jordan. In 1997 the Jazz were the closest any team was to defeating the Bulls in the Finals. The series was tied 2-2 and they were winning with 45 seconds left. Then Jordan stole the ball from Karl Malone, and that was the series.


Well I should hope they gave them a run for their money, we're talking freaking Stockton and Malone.

I want to walk a fine line here and not discredit the good of the Jazz while I make my point about Layden... I'll give it a shot...

http://www.basketballreference.com/leaders/leadershof.htm

Look at the middle column: HOF Monitor Scores of current or not yet eligible players.

Karl Malone himself is ahead of Tim Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson... AND he had Stockton too at #9.

Stockton is better than any of the other's team mates other than Robinson. But Duncan, who is below Malone, had Robinson well past his prime. Stockton/Malne had an enourmously long run together, both having unusually long primes.

Karl Malone got 2 league MVPs. That's two. TWO. 2. Got it, two. Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley... good players, no? Each only got 1. One. ONE. And none of them had a Stockton. 

You know who else in the west got 2 MVPs? Duncan. Know how many titles he's got? Two.

Do you know what Sloans PLAYOFF record is from '89-02 (the year he took over)? 

76 wins 76 losses. 

.500

Why did this freak of a duo have such a hard time getting out of the west?

Obviously, because Layden didn't surround them with a sufficient supporting cast. Who were the best he ever got for them? 

Bryon Russel with a career ave of 8.3 pts and 3.6 rebs, and Greg Ostertag, at 5.2 and 5.9. Hey, Ostertag is a center and he's not rebounding much better than TT at SF with the Knicks.




> No, I'm talking strict math. Without McDyess' contract, trading for Marbury is IMPOSSIBLE.


Why bring up strictly math nonsense? We lost Camby and Nene, who were productive, while paying Dyess to rehab. That was a mathematical blunder. 

Regarding waiving Travis Knights expiring contract:



> Who else were they going to waive, Othella Harrington or Michael Doleac?


Did they have to waive someone? Certainly not an expiring contract. Waive Vranes instead of signing him.

I said: "With a first class coach and two of the best who ever played the game they went out in the first round more than they went to the westen conference finals."

You replied:



> Huh?
> 99-00, 55-27, 2nd seed, SECOND ROUND (Lost to #3 Blazers)
> 98-99, 37-13, 3rd seed, SECOND ROUND (Lost to #2 Blazers)
> 97-98, 62-20, 1st seed, NBA FINALS (Lost to Bulls)
> ...


Rashidi, it's stricktly mathematical. Isn't that a big thing for you?

Sloan's reign with them was '89-'03. Stockton and Malone had already been there a few years by then.

http://www.hoopshype.com/coaches/jerry_sloan.htm

Note that during Sloan's tenure with Stockton/Malone they were outed in the 1st round 6 times. Outed in the second round 4 times. To the finals 2 times.

Twice to the finals, ten times out in the 1st or 2nd round! And they weren't in the bottom brackets going into the playoffs, they had great regular seasons, so they were losing to the weaker teams.

Your research skills are greater than mine, perhaps you'd like to dig up all the teams they lost to in the 1st and 2nd round. I'd like to see how many had two Hall of famers, or two of the best who ever played their position, or what some consider the best two man combination in the history of the game.

Two great stars, maybe the best PF and PG to ever play together, given to Layden by his father, and all he could do was add Shandon, Eisley, Ostertag...what a shame... truly, truly a shame. I sincerely feel as sorry for those guys as I do for Patrick. More in a way, considering their potential.

Why do you continue to defend Layden? Why don't you just admit your folly, renounce him, and save your soul?

He did not upgrade the Knicks at a single position in 5 years, he underacheived badly in Utah, he constantly traded drafts for meaningless bench veterans, he brought and overpaid his Utah bench, he constantly took on long term contracts, he never obtained a healthy all-star for any team he worked for. 

Even hooopshype thinks his BEST move was to draft a guy who didn't want to play here. I mean it's a freaking joke!!!

What are we all missing? Show us WHY you LIKE him. What are his top three career moves with any and all teams?


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> No, I'm talking strict math. Without McDyess' contract, trading for Marbury is IMPOSSIBLE.
> 
> ...


Yeah, we might not have gotten Marbury if we didn't get McDyess, but as Oakley said, we gave a lot to get McDyess. We could have just rebuilt around Nene, the world doesn't revolve around Marbury. Yeah the Knicks will probably never blow up the team, but it was a smart thing to do before Layden was fired. This is where the old Knicks could have learned from the NY Rangers. 

Again, as Oakley said, why did they have to waive anyone? trade him somewhere, with that relatively big expiring contracts teams like the Hawks would have wanted him. Maybe Layden could have gotten a Nazr for Knight trade or something (I think the salaries work, but I'm not sure). A second round pick? 

Yeah, so the Bulls and the Clippers are special. I can understand the Clippers and their stingy owner, but the Bulls were just stupid. They traded away their building parts, who were all playing well at that time, for a dubious "star." Sounds like something Layden would do, since he did trade away oh so many draft picks for old old Mark Jackson and Harrington. I wouldn't compare the Mercer trade with the Marbury trade either. Miller and Artest were playing well at that time, and the Bulls traded away their top 3 scorers to get Mercer. It's not like Miller and co. were unproven. Lampe may have talent, but he wasn't producing like Artest and others. Any idiot could have seen that Miller and Artest (I just can't remember the name of that last guy, sorry) would turn out to be at least decent players. 

If Vujanic wouldn't come here because he had to play behind Houston/Anderson/Ward/ Eisley/possibly Williams why would he have come over any time soon? Ward would have been gone, but the rest are signed for a LONG time. What makes you think Vujanic woulod have come any time soon?


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> If Vujanic wouldn't come here because he had to play behind Houston/Anderson/Ward/ Eisley/possibly Williams why would he have come over any time soon? Ward would have been gone, but the rest are signed for a LONG time. What makes you think Vujanic woulod have come any time soon?


The main PG was Ward though. Ask a player if they'd rather play the 1st or 4th quarter and their answer should be obvious. If playing with 3 PGs (that's 3, not 4) is a problem, it's not like Williams is unmovable.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Note that during Sloan's tenure with Stockton/Malone they were outed in the 1st round 6 times. Outed in the second round 4 times. To the finals 2 times.


So? I listed their PRIME YEARS. *When Utah was a DOMINANT TEAM*. Who cares if they lost in the first round a couple times? The west has always been tougher than the east. The Knicks got out of the first round every year because they 



> Twice to the finals, ten times out in the 1st or 2nd round!


And how many of those were under Layden's watch? Note how the team's best years were under him?



> And they weren't in the bottom brackets going into the playoffs, they had great regular seasons, so they were losing to the weaker teams.


Great seasons? In the west, 47-51 wins is not a great season. Remember when the Knicks won 49 games with Don Nelson and it was considered a disappointment? Let's take a look at the seasons prior to the PRIME years I listed.

92-93: 47-35, 6th seed, First Round (lost to 55 win Sonics)
91-92: 55-27, 2nd seed, Conference Finals (lost to 1 seed Blazers)
90-91: 54-28, 5th seed, Second Round (lost to 1 seed Blazers)

Well, so far you've got a big slab of egg on your face. Twice the Jazz were in the lower bracket. Once they even advanced. All three times they lost to better, dominant teams. 54 wins don't mean a thing in the west, they had 6 weak teams to beat up on. The Magic, T'Wolves, Mavericks, Nuggets, Clippers, and Kings. After the 6th seed Rockets (52 wins) the 7th seed was the Warriors with 44 wins, a whopping 8 game dropoff.

89-90: 55-27, 4th seed, First Round (lost to 54 win Suns)
88-89: 51-37, 2nd seed, First Round (lost to Warriors)

In 88-89 Jerry Sloan was 40-25. Frank Layden was 11-6. I don't know the circumstances of why Sloan missed so many games, so it should be obvious that the Jazz were not the most stable ship despite their record. If you'd like, you can count that as one choke job in 10 years.

87-88: 47-35, 5th seed, Second Round (lost to 1 seed 62 win Lakers in 7 games)

What a choke job. Anyway, for the sake of speeding things along.

86-87: 44-38, 4th seed, First Round
85-86: 42-40, 5th seed, First Round
84-85: 41-41, 7th seed, SECOND ROUND
83-84: 45-37, 2nd seed (worst west team won 29, top west team won 54), Second Round

Silly me, I've already strayed into the pre-Stockton/Malone era. Malone's rookie year was 85-86. Stockton's was 84-85. He didn't start until 87-88. The year the Jazz took the Champion Lakers to 7 games.

Well, that sure went well for you. Tis better to research than assume.



> Two great stars, maybe the best PF and PG to ever play together, given to Layden by his father, and all he could do was add Shandon, Eisley, Ostertag...what a shame...


Hornawho? Utah's "dissapointing" additions propelled the Jazz into their greatest years ever. How gracious of you to neglect those facts and show your own personal emotions. You've already stated you don't like Shandon Anderson, and you show your bias here by being unwilling to accept that once upon a time, Shandon Anderson was a valuable contributor. There's a reason he got a big contract from the Rockets.

Starting SF Bryon Russell drafted in 2nd round
6th man Shandon Anderon drafted in 2nd round
backup PG Howard Eisley drafted in 2nd round and picked up by Utah
backup C Greg Ostertag drafted in late 1st round
Starting SG Hornawho? acquired for aging Jeff Malone and 1st round pick
backup PF Antoine Carr signed as free agent
backup F Adam Keefe acquired for Tyrone Corbin and 2nd round pick
backup PG Jacque Vaugns drafted in late 1st round
backup C Greg Foster signed as free agent

Yeah, what a terrible GM job Layden did. He pulled players from nowhere and fit them into a working system. That's merely 9 guys other than Stockton and Malone.




> truly, truly a shame. I sincerely feel as sorry for those guys as I do for Patrick. More in a way, considering their potential.



# of 60 win seasons Sonics had: 3
# of 60 win seasons Utah had: 2
# of 60 win seasons LA had: 1
# of 60 win seasons Blazers had: 1
# of 60 win seasons Spurs had: 1
# of 60 win seasons Suns had: 1

# of 60 win seasons Bulls had: 5
# of 60 win seasons NY had: 1
# of 60 win seasons Heat had: 1

As you can see, there was a lot more competition in the west than in the east during the early 90s. The east had one team (Bulls) and the west had many teams. While we're at it, let's talk about how the Pacers made the Conference Finals more times than the Knicks, despite winning more than 52 games only twice (the one year they went to the finals, and the one year they took Jordan to 7 games - the only team to do so in all of the Bulls 2nd threepeat)

You are seriously overrating Stockton and Malone. Yes they were consistently good for a long time. But good doesn't = great. Stockton may have been the top assist man, but he was not the top PG. He wasn't Magic or Isiah, and debate about whether he was even better than KJ, Gary Payton, or Terry Porter. Those were the PGs of the teams the Jazz seemed to struggle most against.



> , he underacheived badly in Utah,


LMAO, look before you leap.



> Even hooopshype thinks his BEST move was to draft a guy who didn't want to play here. I mean it's a freaking joke!!!


Or it means hoopshype values Euros a lot more than you do. Which is pretty true, given their in-depth lists of accomplishments for foreign players in their bios.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> The west has always been tougher than the east.


you sure about that??tell that to Pat Ewing having had to go thru Chicago...


These posts are toooo $%%$$% long...What the #$%^ are we even discussing.....

Tell me its not the layden thing again

I thought we had beaten that topic to death and then some....Does anyone really care about Layden???And if they do,does it have to be in such great depth....

Why dont we just end this with a poll..Can someone please post a poll,rating Layden...You can cast my vote as he was the worst


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

You're still all over the map on this guy. He's a hot shot Euro star but he's afraid of Ward? Then clearly he'd never come, because we'd never have a worse starter than Ward. Oh wait, under Layden's Knicks we did, Eisley - even though we had Ward.

And didn't you chide me as ignorant for "accusing" this lad of being a point guard, when those in the know, like you, agree he's a SG? Why should a SG give a thought to the mighty, indomitable, Ward?

*Vaporware...*


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Vapornick?????

Thats another reason layden should have been canned a LONG time ago..Gow do you draft a guy who refuses to come over???

Didny anyone talk to him????Or was Vapornick hiding out with LJ,another guy layden couldnt find over the summer....

Secondly,if you are worried about getting playing time behind ward and eisly,then perhaps basketball should not be your chosen profession.....

And dont bring up the money issue...If hes is that good,then where there is a will,there is a way



Layden: Dolan,got some good news and bad news for you..We stole this kid Vapornick in the second round

Dolan:Great,cause that piece of #$%^ Eisly you brought over from Utah shouldnt be in the NBA..By the way,whats the bad news.........

Layden:Ummm,apparently no one talked to the kid before we drafted him and he wont be coming over anytime soon.It also appears he is having a confidence crisis..Ummmmm,he isnt sure he could beat out Howard.....And we still havent been able to get in touch with LJ..Do you happen to know when the deadline for medical exceptions is???I guess we could file early for McKnee???

Dolan:Listen Scott,I am in the middle of a phone call with Isiah..Let me get back to you..And give my regards to your family in Utah


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Truth, that was THE best. The BEST.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

im gonna give it its own post


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> like you, agree he's a SG? Why should a SG give a thought to the mighty, indomitable, Ward?


He's a COMBO GUARD. Like Jamal Crawford, Steve Francis, and Allen Iverson.



> you sure about that??tell that to Pat Ewing having had to go thru Chicago...


You should try READING MY POST. Like I said IN MY POST. The Bulls were the ONLY dominant team in the east, while there were MANY dominant teams in the west. David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kemp/Payton, Drexler, Barkley/Johnson. I forgot to mention the Magic, they had a 60 win season. The Magic took the place of the Bulls for 2 years, and then Shaq left town.

Since you obviously missed the list, let me bring it back for you. At least this explains why you think I'm crazy and why I keep repeating myself. Because you clearly don't read a word of what I write anyway.

# of 60 win seasons Lakers had: 3
# of 60 win seasons Sonics had: 3
# of 60 win seasons Utah had: 3 (were on pace for 60 in lockout season)
# of 60 win seasons Spurs had: 2 (were on pace for 60 in lockout season)
# of 60 win seasons Blazers had: 1
# of 60 win seasons Suns had: 1
Total # of 60 win seasons in 90s by west: 13

# of 60 win seasons Bulls had: 5
# of 60 win seasons NY had: 1
# of 60 win seasons Magic had: 1
# of 60 win seasons Heat had: 1
Total # of 60 win seasons in 90s by east: 8

Criticizing the Jazz for not making the Conference Finals yearly is like criticizing them now for missing the playoffs this year in the west. They'd make the playoffs easily in the east. When is the last time a 5th seed in the east won 54 games? That would be 96-97, 

# of 50 win teams in east
02-03: 1
01-02: 2
00-01: 3
99-00: 3
98-99: 4 (on pace for 50)
97-98: 5
*96-97: 6* - Bulls won 72, Magic won 60
95-96: 3
94-95: 4
93-94: 4
92-93: 3
91-92: 4
90-91: 4

# of 50 win teams in west
*02-03: 6* - one .500 team misses playoffs
*01-02: 5*
*00-01: 7* - T'Wolves were 8th seed with 47 wins, two .500 teams miss playoffs
*99-00: 6*
*98-99: 5* (on pace for 50)
*97-98: 5* - THREE teams won 60+ games, Jazz went to Finals this year btw.
96-97: 4
*95-96: 4*
94-95: 4
*93-94: 6*
*92-93: 4*
91-92: 4
*90-91: 6*

The east has been better than the west once in the last decade and a half. The only thing stopping the west from total dominance was the Bulls.

This year two east teams are on pace for 50 wins (Pacers already have 50 even). 6 west teams are on pace for 50 wins (Kings have 51, others are T'Wolves, Lakers, Spurs, Mavs, Grizzlies). Two west teams are going to be .500 and miss the playoffs. FOUR east teams are sub .500 and are going to make the playoffs. The gap might be larger now, but it has always existed, the only thing disgusing the lack of league parity was Jordan. The Bulls wouldn't have gotten 72 wins playing in the west.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> You should try READING MY POST


I read the first 50 pages and then took a break...



> Because you clearly don't read a word of what I write anyway


i like your posts,but they are way too long


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

I know you guys don't like Euro's but lets be realistic about Vujanic. He was a second round pick/gamble. If he panned out he was a steal; if not, no big deal as not to many 2nd rounders do. I'm not sure if any of them picked after him would be on the Knicks. Why does everyone take it as fact that he was afraid of competing for time or didn't want to play in NY? Isn't he making much more money where he is? Isn't that the story with every player in the league? Get as much as you can where you can? I don't know if the guy is a future star or not...although he looked pretty good in the world games.... but why all the venom? Most of you guys would have taken the money yourselves and stayed where you are. I think assuming he is afraid or anti NY is just palin dumb without the facts. It doesn't make for much worthwhile debatem, thats for sure.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> i like your posts,but they are way too long


Yet you take the time to read Batman's long-winded posts. Go figure.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

sorry to dissapoint,but i dont read batmans long winded posts either....

you are a verrrry bitter man,arent you


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> Yet you take the time to read Batman's long-winded posts. Go figure.


Speaking of, these posts DO take a long time to read and respond to, as you well know. My life has suffered, with little to show for it. I've just glanced at your latest response and already have enough to take issue with, but I really need to give mind to other interests. I probably will reply fully or briefly in a day or two. But in no way should you construe a lack of response as acceptance of your argument.


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> The main PG was Ward though. Ask a player if they'd rather play the 1st or 4th quarter and their answer should be obvious. If playing with 3 PGs (that's 3, not 4) is a problem, it's not like Williams is unmovable.


3 PGs is a bit of a problem IMO. Look at how the Knicks played with Ward, Eisley, and Williams. Williams had like NO playing time at all. If Ward was gone, Eisley would start with Williams backing up. He proved to be playing pretty well before the Marbury trade. Would Layden or Chaney be crazy enough to play an unproven person in front of a proven one? I wouldn't until Vujanic showed that he could play in the NBA, and would Vujanic have come if he knew that he was 3rd string PG? and probably 3rd sting SG behind at least Anderson or Demarr.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Come on guys, the Vapor is not going to wait in Europe until his rights are traded to a team with no starting and backup PGs, and no starting and backup SG. The guy said he'd probably be coming to Phoenix next year a day or two after the trade. For a combo guard Eisley/Barbosa/Marion is perhaps marginally less threatening than Eisley/Ward/Houston, but not much.

I can't speak to why he should have shunned NY, all I know is if he were waiting for a more opportune situation than a team with NO starting PG, like NY was, hed be overseas a long time.


----------



## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

The issue was money, my friend. Phoenix can pay him more than NY could at the time.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Not saying you are wrong, but could you explain that to me?

The Colangelo's and Suns are reported to be in bad financial condition, and Phoenix is trying to clear as much off the cap as possible, while NY has chosen to take on any bad contract it desires with seemingly unlimited pockets.

What do you know that I don't?


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> Come on guys, the Vapor is not going to wait in Europe until his rights are traded to a team with no starting and backup PGs, and no starting and backup SG. The guy said he'd probably be coming to Phoenix next year a day or two after the trade. For a combo guard Eisley/Barbosa/Marion is perhaps marginally less threatening than Eisley/Ward/Houston, but not much.
> 
> I can't speak to why he should have shunned NY, all I know is if he were waiting for a more opportune situation than a team with NO starting PG, like NY was, hed be overseas a long time.


Well, Marion starts at SF, so I don't think you should count him really, unless you want to count KVH for the Knicks. Playing behind Eisley/Ward/Houston/Anderson/Williams would result in less minutes than playing behind Eisley/Barbosa (unproven)/ Joe Johnson (inconsistent when Vujanic said he was going to the Suns, playing pretty well now). The Suns don't have much depth at the guard position, while the Knicks are loaded with players there. Granted, the Suns had some nice players at the guard position, but it is easier to get minutes behind 3 ppl instead of 5 ppl, and Johnson wasn't playing well when Vujanic announced his intentions of coming over. Vujanic probably thought he could take some of Johnson's minutes too. The Knicks also had this thing of playing veterens over young players, even if the young players could be better than the veterens (Eisley over Williams; Harrington over Sweetney), so Vujanic probably figured he would get very little playing time in NY. Vujanic wouldn't have waited until he was owned by a team with no starting PG, but he was waiting for a team in which he had a good chance to challenge for a significant amount of minutes. 

Alphadog, is money really that big an issue? I admit I'm not quite sure about the contract he could sign. A 2 year contract like Okur, Arenas, and Ginobilli? Why would Pheonix be able to offer more? Isn't there a max amount he can get from his rookie contract? I'm really not sure...


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

My mistake on Marion. He and Johnson are the same size, I thought Marion played both positions as does Johnson.

But really folks, you pretend we've been in a vacuum through all this. It's been known around the world for a decade that no one was happy with the NY point guard situation. People were excited we drafted Vapornic so we could start him ASAP! You all talk about it as though the plan was to put him at the end of the line. The plan was to hustle him to the front of the line, PRONTO!

And yeah, maybe he'd make less here for the first two years or so, but where is the big money, in NY or Madrid? Layden was a walking paycheck. He pays his scrubs like other GMs pay starters, and if he likes you he send you 100M contracts as Christmas presents. Get real.


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> My mistake on Marion. He and Johnson are the same size, I thought Marion played both positions as does Johnson.
> 
> But really folks, you pretend we've been in a vacuum through all this. It's been known around the world for a decade that no one was happy with the NY point guard situation. People were excited we drafted Vapornic so we could start him ASAP! You all talk about it as though the plan was to put him at the end of the line. The plan was to hustle him to the front of the line, PRONTO!
> ...


My question is, if the team was so eager to make him start once away, why wouldn't Vujanic come over? There must be a reason why we couldn't get him to come over. Were we not aggressive enough? Or maybe Vujanic just didn't want to come to NY. Why would he suddenly announance that he was coming to the NBA next season right after he was traded to the Suns, while He was very vague about his intentions when he was owned by the knicks? You might say that management wanted to rush him right in front of the line, but when was the last time the Knicks let an unproven guy play before a veteren?


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

This discussion is sort of silly.......

If I am not mistaken,didnt we pay Lampe quite a bit so he could be bought out from his team????I am sure that if layden had a clue,money wasnt an issue...I mean he overpays H20 by 30 million,loses the med exception on LJ,overpays garbage like Spoon and he cant cough up an extra million for Vujanic??

Layden eats like bird and shiits like an elephant....

Secondly,if you had 10 eislys,and 10 wards in front of you,and you are a great player,dont you know that you can beat those guys out with your eyes closed???If thats the reason why he didnt come,that was a rumor started by layDumb.....It makes no sense....

This was a major blunder by layden.....He is a moron..its no difference than offerering Harrington for Chris Bosch...Aint happening,and i am sure he did the same moronic thing with Vujanic


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> But in no way should you construe a lack of response as acceptance of your argument.


And why not? When I do this, people ***** and moan about a so-called vanishing act. Why doesn't it go both ways?



> 3 PGs is a bit of a problem IMO. Look at how the Knicks played with Ward, Eisley, and Williams.


Jackson/Ward/Eisley is a better example. The year Jackson started, Ward and Eisley were god awful. When Jackson left, both eleveated their levels of play.



> For a combo guard Eisley/Barbosa/Marion is perhaps marginally less threatening than Eisley/Ward/Houston, but not much


Except on this team, Vujanic is the vet. Barbosa is more or less a younger less experienced version of Vujanic.



> Secondly,if you had 10 eislys,and 10 wards in front of you,and you are a great player,dont you know that you can beat those guys out with your eyes closed???


While you're obviously biased against Howard Eisley, you're a bigger fool than I bargained for if you think Charlie Ward is not a good player. I wonder where you were the last 10 years of Ward drawing charges, hitting big threes, and averaging assists at a high per minute rate.



> He is a moron..its no difference than offerering Harrington for Chris Bosch.


It was Kurt Thomas. That trade is even value right now. Chris Bosh is definitely one of the more overrated players in the league. Further, KT makes a much better center than Bosh does, that much is evident from just watching one Raptor game. They have similar skills, and KT is a better rebounder/defender. Yes Bosh is younger and has more potential, but let's be realistic, he's not going to improve much playing center at 210 pounds, in fact it makes him a candidate to get injured. Shareef Abdur-Rahim was 19 years old too when he came into the league. Bosh is far from Rahim's rookie production, which makes me skeptical as to whether he'll ever be as good as the Reefer, much less worth a 4th pick.


----------



## Stevie B (May 15, 2003)

Bosh is going to be a great player in this league, if not a star. He is not 210 pounds. More like 230 and growing.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> And why not? When I do this, people ***** and moan about a so-called vanishing act. Why doesn't it go both ways?


My god, you are a whiner.

Maybe because the rest of us don't make a life of looking up NBA stats. My posts are as long as yours but they probably take me four times as long to research. Notice I always site my references for you to cross check, you never do. Thanks pal.

But don't worry, I'll get back to bashing you later.


----------



## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> While you're obviously biased against Howard Eisley, you're a bigger fool than I bargained for if you think Charlie Ward is not a good player. I wonder where you were the last 10 years of Ward drawing charges, hitting big threes, and averaging assists at a high per minute rate.


He's less the fool than Layden/Chaney, who chose to start and give equal time to Eisley, when Ward was obviously the better player. Not that that's saying a whole lot.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> While you're obviously biased against Howard Eisley, you're a bigger fool than I bargained for if you think Charlie Ward is not a good player. I wonder where you were the last 10 years of Ward drawing charges, hitting big threes, and averaging assists at a high per minute rate.


Charlie Ward WAS a good player...was as in past tense..So was Magic Johnson and Clyde Frazier....If Ward is sooo
good,why is he avg

3.4 ppg, .355 %....He is an AVERAGE point guard at best..

Biased against Eisly???Not really,I would direct it at LayDumb and Chaney...Eisly having no game is not a sin..Bringing him over and playing him is the sign of a fool....

Hmmm..interesting I am the fool..Yet every player and GM you like and have **** erotic fantasies for is no longer in town...Could it be you are delusional???Or perhaps a genius???


----------



## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> It was Kurt Thomas. That trade is even value right now. Chris Bosh is definitely one of the more overrated players in the league. Further, KT makes a much better center than Bosh does, that much is evident from just watching one Raptor game. They have similar skills, and KT is a better rebounder/defender. Yes Bosh is younger and has more potential, but let's be realistic, he's not going to improve much playing center at 210 pounds, in fact it makes him a candidate to get injured. Shareef Abdur-Rahim was 19 years old too when he came into the league. Bosh is far from Rahim's rookie production, which makes me skeptical as to whether he'll ever be as good as the Reefer, much less worth a 4th pick.


Bosh Overrated? He's a rookie. He hasn't been talked about at all. He's going to be a real player. Layden offered Othella first before being laughed at and then offered Thomas, which was rejected.

Layden has proposed pitiful trades the past few years, consisting of Frank Williams(when he was getting no playing time) for Ronald Murray(When he was averagin lik 20 ppg). He even offered Kurt Thomas and Charlie Ward for Gary Payton a few years back. The mind and resume of a genius. Look at the man's resume in NY, it's so great:

Acquired:
Othella Harrington
Howard Eisley
Shandon Anderson
Glen Rice*
Luc Longley(retired after 1 season with Knicks with less than 20 gms)
Travis Knight
Vladimir Stepania(waived in preseason)
Lazarro Borell(waived before joining team)
Michael Doleac
Clarence Weatherspoon
Antonio McDyess(never played more than 15 gms with the Knicks)
Mark Jackson*
Keith Van Horn
Mike Sweetney
Maciej Lampe(rotted on IR)
Milos Vujanic(still in Europe)
Slavko Vranes
Eric Strickland*
Mugsy Bogues*(retired after being trade to Dallas in Eisley deal)
Dikembe Mutombo(Layden got lucky Deke was waived)
*-Later traded during his tenure.

Traded:
#7 pick in 2002 draft
Latrell Sprewell
Chris Childs
Mark Jackson(after acquiring him)
Erick Strickland(after acquiring him)
Glen Rice(after acquiring him)
Patrick Ewing(who later turned into Eisley/Anderson)


Wow, what a great resume. The only names that stand out are Sweetney and Lampe, who fell into his lap. Great record, Layden.

Thomas? Too early to judge but getting Stephon Marbury in less than 2 weeks automatically elminates Layden from any arguments.

CASE CLOSED!


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> It was Kurt Thomas. That trade is even value right now. Chris Bosh is definitely one of the more overrated players in the league



Chris Bosh,a rookie,20 y.o.,playing out of position is overrated???

Why???

Because layden made an embarrassing offfer and was laughed out throughout the league??

Only you would say that KT=Cris Bosh...Then again you think Eisly>Marbury...At least you are consistent,ill give you that much


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed. Bosh is a rookie this year, coming out after his freshman season too. He is 20, and is doing pretty well considering how young he is. Are you so ready to call him a bust after less than a season when he is only 20? Bosh has great potential now, not something you can say about KT or Harrington. How owuld you call him overrated anyway? Are ppl comparing him to Carmelo now? I don't think so. Give Bosh a year or two and I am positive he will be better than KT and Harringotn combined.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Sometimes,he makes the most bizzare statements..i think he just does it to be argumentative and agitate people....How can a 20 y.o rookie be overrated??Hes playing out of position at center and weighed 210 at the beginning of the year..


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Give Bosh a year or two and I am positive he will be better than KT and Harringotn combined.


Really? Are you talking offense or defense? He doesn't have the make up of a guy you can run your offense through, and on defense he's a stick, even when playing in position at PF. Tomorrow Bosh will obviously be better than Kurt Thomas (considering KT will be 35 years old when Bosh is around 24) but today, Kurt Thomas is definitely the better player. KT would be averaging a lot more than 11/8 on the Raptors. Bosh btw is averaging 11/7. Bosh's stats have been the beneficiary of "Nobody else on this team can score" syndrome. Vince Carter, Jalen Rose, and Alvin Williams have spent plenty of time on the IR, and the team was by far the worst scoring team in basketball before Marshall and Rose were brought in. It says a lot that Donyell Marshall is the team's 2nd leading scorer at 17.5 ppg, and leading rebounder with 10.5. That's probably what Kurt would be averaging around if he started the year at center for Toronto.

Caron Butler averaged 15 ppg last year, mostly because he was the first option when Eddie Jones went down with injury. Who else was going to get the shots? The only other player on the Heat who scored in double figures last season was Brian Grant (10.5 ppg). You guys need to be able read these sort of things in numbers.


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Really? Are you talking offense or defense? He doesn't have the make up of a guy you can run your offense through, and on defense he's a stick, even when playing in position at PF. Tomorrow Bosh will obviously be better than Kurt Thomas (considering KT will be 35 years old when Bosh is around 24) but today, Kurt Thomas is definitely the better player. KT would be averaging a lot more than 11/8 on the Raptors. Bosh btw is averaging 11/7. Bosh's stats have been the beneficiary of "Nobody else on this team can score" syndrome. Vince Carter, Jalen Rose, and Alvin Williams have spent plenty of time on the IR, and the team was by far the worst scoring team in basketball before Marshall and Rose were brought in. It says a lot that Donyell Marshall is the team's 2nd leading scorer at 17.5 ppg, and leading rebounder with 10.5. That's probably what Kurt would be averaging around if he started the year at center for Toronto.
> ...


Yeah yeah, so what? KT is better than Bosh right now, but Bosh at his prime is definately a lot better than KT right now. Why would the raptors be stupid enough to trade a PF with a ton of potential for an aging, servicable but not great PF? Remeber that Bosh is still 20. Are you expecting him to be putting up numbers that are comparable to NBA veterns? LeBron and Melo are anomalies, how many players do you see contributing right away when they enter the draft after their Freshman season? Not many, I assure you. My point is that Bosh in his prime will be hella lot better than KT and Harrington in their primes. Ask around, I'm sure most people will agree with me. And tell me why Bosh is overrated. No one was expecting him to contribute right away and be like LeBron and Melo anyway.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Why would the raptors be stupid enough to trade a PF with a ton of potential for an aging, servicable but not great PF? Remeber that Bosh is still 20. Are you expecting him to be putting up numbers that are comparable to NBA veterns? LeBron and Melo are anomalies, how many players do you see contributing right away when they enter the draft after their Freshman season? Not many, I assure you. My point is that Bosh in his prime will be hella lot better than KT and Harrington in their primes. Ask around, I'm sure most people will agree with me. And tell me why Bosh is overrated. No one was expecting him to contribute right away and be like LeBron and Melo anyway.


1. If the Raptors had KT instead of Bosh, they might still be in the playoff hunt.

2. If making the playoffs this season is important to Toronto, then what is the harm in asking for Bosh? Are the Knicks limited to how many trade proposals they can make? Point is, the trade was a realistic offer with pros and cons, and obviously Toronto rejected it because they don't want to go in that direction. Make note that this is going to be the 3rd straight season Vince Carter and the Raptors miss the playoffs (Hmm, same as Knicks and the "dreaded" Layden era, go figure). The Knicks threw away their future for the present, so what is wrong with the Raptors doing the same?

3. They didn't want Bosh in the first place. They spent pretty much all of draft day trying to trade away the 4th pick, KNOWING they were going to be drafting Bosh since the top 3 was set in stone. So clearly they aren't as high on him as you'd like to think. 

4. Would the Raptors trade Bosh for KT? Better question - Would the Raptors trade Bosh and player X for KT and player Y? It's not like trade proposals evolve via magic.

5. The Raptors already have a superstar missing the playoffs, by that logic wouldn't the Raptors be more interested in getting said star to the playoffs instead of the lottery? Signing Brent Barry is a move that doesn't make sense for Seattle long term, but their superstar (Ray Allen) has stated he would be very unhappy about the direction the team is taking if they don't sign him. If they don't sign Brent, Allen will probably be demanding a trade next season. Iverson is getting unhappy in Philly, pretty soon they're going to end up trading him. The day will come when Vince Carter gets sick of losing in Toronto, and demands a trade. That's a day that will be a lot more important to the future of the franchise than anything Chris Bosh does on the court.


----------



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> No one was expecting him to contribute right away and be like LeBron and Melo anyway.


Lebron and Melo are a pretty bad example, they're going to be superstars, Bosh is not. Bosh isn't exactly outdoing what guys like Amare and Pau Gasol did in their rookie years.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> If the Raptors had KT instead of Bosh, they might still be in the playoff hunt


Maybe,maybe not..i doubt there is a single gm in the league that would trade Bosh for KT..



> Are the Knicks limited to how many trade proposals they can make?


No,but at a certain point,everyone knows you arent serious..make serious offers and be taken seriously



> The Knicks threw away their future for the present


Blame that fully on Layden..He masterminded the McKnee trade,and didnt blow up the team after realising he made a major blunder



> Would the Raptors trade Bosh for KT


Obviously not,since they rebuffed layden


----------



## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 2. If making the playoffs this season is important to Toronto, then what is the harm in asking for Bosh? Are the Knicks limited to how many trade proposals they can make? Point is, the trade was a realistic offer with pros and cons, and obviously Toronto rejected it because they don't want to go in that direction. Make note that this is going to be the 3rd straight season Vince Carter and the Raptors miss the playoffs (Hmm, same as Knicks and the "dreaded" Layden era, go figure). The Knicks threw away their future for the present, so what is wrong with the Raptors doing the same?


Well, Trading KT fror Bosh would be essentially trading for teh #4 pick. You now how much the #4 pick worth? Well, the Nuggets did have to give up quite a lot to get the #7 pick, and KT is no superstar. Is KT worth the #4 pick? You think about that.


----------

