# Canzano: Rudy, 2nd/3rd best Blazer immediately



## Amandalyn (Aug 3, 2008)

Bald guy was on Morning Sports Page, 95.5 The Game as a guest & dropped something like "see thread title".

show host Gavin Dawson got so pumped he couldn't stop talking about Rudy.

co-host Chad disagreed & ripped Canzano.

PS. Rudy plays 1am Tuesday 12th (like later)


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## HAAK72 (Jun 18, 2007)

...4th/5th would be more accurate I think [Canzano is just helping to sell tickets...as if there needs to be any]


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## NateBishop3 (Jul 22, 2003)

1. Oden (hopefully)
2. Roy
3. Aldridge
4. Rudy
5. Bayless
6. Outlaw
7. Frye
8. Joel
9. Blake
10. Webster
11. Sergio
12. Diogu
13. Batum
14. LaFrentz


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## dreamcloud (Aug 8, 2008)

Oh please. That's just ridiculous, especially based on one game. Like the person above said, 4th (or 5th) is more reasonable.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Wasn't Canzano the one who was implying dark things about Oden, based on Oden saying he was less than 100%? I'm guessing Canzano is trying to argue that Roy will be Portland's best player and Fernandez will be better than Oden (and Aldridge) this season. I think that's lunacy, but Canzano enjoys a special brand of lunacy.


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## alext42083 (Nov 7, 2003)

Who knows. Rudy can blow us out of the water when he comes over. While realistically Rudy is our fourth/fifth best option, Roy and Aldridge are the only sure things. Outlaw's a nice bench guy, and Oden and Bayless are still unknown.

Second best player is stretching it, but Rudy could be really good.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

The best thing about this Spain/Greece game was to notice that Rudy scored more points than anyone on the Spanish team's roster without dominating the ball, dominating the playtime or acting like the superstar of the team that needs to be in the middle of everything. This shows us that he will be able to play well next to Roy without marginalizing Roy's strength. That's a good thing, a very good thing.

From here to calling him the 2nd best player on the team is a stretch - but who knows - if he can translate his international ball scoring efficiency and flair to the NBA - he could be the best rookie we will have next year. Of course, in the long run - one would hope that Mr. Oden fulfills his promise - but Rudy is good. Very good.


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## gatorpops (Dec 17, 2004)

andalusian said:


> The best thing about this Spain/Greece game was to notice that Rudy scored more points than anyone on the Spanish team's roster without dominating the ball, dominating the playtime or acting like the superstar of the team that needs to be in the middle of everything. This shows us that he will be able to play well next to Roy without marginalizing Roy's strength. That's a good thing, a very good thing.
> 
> From here to calling him the 2nd best player on the team is a stretch - but who knows - if he can translate his international ball scoring efficiency and flair to the NBA - he could be the best rookie we will have next year. Of course, in the long run - one would hope that Mr. Oden fulfills his promise - but Rudy is good. Very good.



Great post! I fully agree. I have watched the game now three times and I was like, when and how did he score 16 pts? 

As far as his D he just plays his coaches gambling D that the coach hopes is as effective as any other D. The Greece team had some very good shooters and they spread the floor very wide and made Spain play that gambling zone. 

Another thing was that Rudy played like a SF with Calderon and Navarro playing along with him for long stretches. 
These teams are as good as or maybe better than half the NBA teams. So can he play the SF? AT least against some, many, teams. 
Then we will have Webster and Outlaw as larger bodies to throw at teams. 
He just gives us another dimension and makes the Blazers that better.

g


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## LameR (Jan 4, 2004)

I don't think it's that ridiculous if you look at it a little differently. Obviously, Roy and LMA will be top 3. Perhaps Canzano is assuming that Oden and Bayless will take more time to transition (foul trouble for Greg, playing time for Bayless), and that Rudy may be better than Webster and Outlaw. Although, if the argument about playing time can be used on Bayless, I don't see why it couldn't be used on Rudy too. I guess we'll just wait and see.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

alext42083 said:


> Who knows. Rudy can blow us out of the water when he comes over. While realistically Rudy is our fourth/fifth best option, Roy and Aldridge are the only sure things. Outlaw's a nice bench guy, and* Oden and Bayless are still unknown.*
> 
> Second best player is stretching it, but Rudy could be really good.


We take a leap of faith projecting how any player (including Roy) will mix and do with all the rest of the guys next year. I don't agree that Oden and Bayless are in some sort of purgatory where we can't reasonably discuss how they'll do... especially if Rudy isn't also off limits to speculation. I do base a good deal of my optimism about next year on my opinions of these two "unknowns." I've watched enough ball to have an opinion on which prospect is legit and I've seen much more of Oden and Bayless then Rudy. I don't think it takes more then a few different occasions to tell what sort of a player a guy is.

I'm guessing Nate will start off with a lot of Blake and faze in Rudy and Bayless as the season goes along. Hopefully by midseason Blake will have passed along a majority of his vet teammate wisdom and the more talented players will take over his minutes. Rudy Bayless and Roy are going to make a dynamic trio sooner then later.

STOMP


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

NateBishop3 said:


> 1. Oden (hopefully)
> 2. Roy
> 3. Aldridge
> 4. Rudy
> ...


Interesting list. Mine, at least at the start of next season, looks like this:

1. Roy
2. Aldridge
3. Oden
4. Outlaw
5. Fernandez
6. Blake
7. Frye
8. Bayless
9. Przybilla
10. Webster
11. Diogu
12. Rodriguez
13. LaFrentz
14. Batum

There are several there I can imagine wanting to swap after a pre-season game or two, such as LaFrentz and Rodriguez, Frye and Blake, and Oden and Aldridge. Otherwise, I'm guessing that's what I'd go with for opening day. There are guys (like Bayless, Webster, Diogu, and Batum) who might climb by mid-season, but we'll have to see.


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## Balian (Apr 11, 2008)

I envision the end of the game lineup to be regularly Oden, LMA, Rudy, Roy, and Bayless. Who knows ...Rudy might crack the starting lineup by the end of the season. But Nate would be crazy not to take advantage of Rudy legendary ice cold killer instincts at the end of games. Rudy is easily the top 5 on the team.


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## Mr. Chuck Taylor (Aug 2, 2004)

I don't get it. Canzano watches one game, admits Rudy is terrible at defense (in his article), yet "annoints him" anyways and calls him the 2nd/3rd best player on the team? Last time I checked, playing defense was still half the game.


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## OdenRoyLMA2 (May 23, 2008)

In the end it will look like this...

1. Oden 


2. Roy
3. Aldridge

4. Bayless
5. Rudy

6. Outlaw
7. Webster


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Balian said:


> I envision the end of the game lineup to be regularly Oden, LMA, Rudy, Roy, and Bayless. Who knows ...Rudy might crack the starting lineup by the end of the season. *But Nate would be crazy not to take advantage of Rudy legendary ice cold killer instincts at the end of games.* Rudy is easily the top 5 on the team.


that on top of his other talents he's a 90% FT shooter will command PT down the stretch... Ex: 1A JJack

STOMP


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

Mr. Chuck Taylor said:


> I don't get it. Canzano watches one game, admits Rudy is terrible at defense (in his article), yet "annoints him" anyways and calls him the 2nd/3rd best player on the team? Last time I checked, playing defense was still half the game.


Agreed -- Fernandez's offense is good, but it's not _that_ good. Canzano seems to like to make bold statements. Right now, I'd say Fernandez's offense is roughly the same as Przybilla's defense and likewise, his defense is similar to Pryzbilla's offense. Given that, I should maybe drop Fernandez and/or raise Przybilla -- defense needs to be there every time down the floor while offense not so much.

The one argument in Rudy's favor there is that _this_ team is probably stronger defensively than offensively -- those virtually scoreless quarters lost a number of games and made many of the wins tighter than they needed to be.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

PorterIn2004 said:


> Agreed -- Fernandez's offense is good, but it's not _that_ good. Canzano seems to like to make bold statements. Right now, I'd say Fernandez's offense is roughly the same as Przybilla's defense and likewise, his defense is similar to Pryzbilla's offense. Given that, I should maybe drop Fernandez and/or raise Przybilla -- defense needs to be there every time down the floor while offense not so much.


also defending the paint is probably (much) more important to team success then being able to defend the perimeter. You want the opponent to shoot from the outside.

or... I'd much rather have a main cog weaker defender be a guard then a Big.

STOMP


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

STOMP said:


> also defending the paint is probably (much) more important to team success then being able to defend the perimeter. You want the opponent to shoot from the outside.
> 
> or... I'd much rather have a main cog weaker defender be a guard then a Big.
> 
> STOMP


Good points, thanks!


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## moldorf (Jun 29, 2007)

Rudy is going to disappoint a lot of Blazer fans at the beginning of next season. He's got a lot to learn, and the game he's been playing for all his career in europe isn't the same as in the NBA.

He's going to have trouble getting consistent minutes, and that killer schedule the blazers have for the first 1/3 of the season won't help a bit in that regard. I actually expect bayless to be more nba-ready then Rudy.

Manu Ginobli only averaged 7 points a game his first season. Don't expect rudy to be any better. 

Then factor in what I'd classify as some unrealitic expectations around blazerland for next season, and the pressure that will put on nate to 'win now'. That will make him reluctant to give a lot of time to an ultra-skinny euro who plays poor defense.

Rudy may end up as one of the top 3 or 4 blazers, but he won't be close to that next season. Six or seven or eight blazers will be better to start the season, and at least that many will be more trusted by the coach.


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## alext42083 (Nov 7, 2003)

STOMP said:


> We take a leap of faith projecting how any player (including Roy) will mix and do with all the rest of the guys next year. I don't agree that Oden and Bayless are in some sort of purgatory where we can't reasonably discuss how they'll do... especially if Rudy isn't also off limits to speculation. I do base a good deal of my optimism about next year on my opinions of these two "unknowns." I've watched enough ball to have an opinion on which prospect is legit and I've seen much more of Oden and Bayless then Rudy. I don't think it takes more then a few different occasions to tell what sort of a player a guy is.
> 
> I'm guessing Nate will start off with a lot of Blake and faze in Rudy and Bayless as the season goes along. Hopefully by midseason Blake will have passed along a majority of his vet teammate wisdom and the more talented players will take over his minutes. Rudy Bayless and Roy are going to make a dynamic trio sooner then later.
> 
> STOMP


I didn't say Oden and Bayless are in a purgatory. Their unknown status is just based on them not having even played an NBA game yet. 
I'm not expecting Rudy to be our third best player either, but I'm just saying you never know until we see them play. Rudy could knock our socks off at the beginning although it's unlikely.
But on talent alone, Greg should be our best player followed by Roy, Aldridge and then it's up to Rudy, Bayless and Outlaw to be super role players.
Time will tell.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

moldorf said:


> He's going to have trouble getting consistent minutes, and that killer schedule the blazers have for the first 1/3 of the season won't help a bit in that regard. I actually expect bayless to be more nba-ready then Rudy.
> 
> Manu Ginobli only averaged 7 points a game his first season. Don't expect rudy to be any better.


With those points, one concern I have for both Bayless and Fernandez is the ball. Jones had a terrible shooting percentage the year they tried the other ball, and got his touch back (and then some!) as soon as they went back to the leather ball. Likewise, Roy had trouble adjusting to the leather ball.

One advantage Bayless has here is that he's presumably already getting used to the leather ball -- I'm guessing it's what they used in summer league and he's almost certainly practicing with it now. Fernandez, otoh, would be foolish to be doing anything with the leather ball until the olympics are over.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

STOMP said:


> that on top of his other talents he's a 90% FT shooter will command PT down the stretch... Ex: 1A JJack
> 
> STOMP


An interesting point there is that _both_ Fernandez and Bayless are pretty lights-out from the free-throw line _and_, much as Przybilla improved in that regard, I expect Oden to be better. Relatively speaking, Roy, Aldridge and/or Outlaw might be the weak-links in that regard in late game situations.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

I think our best players right now are...

1. Roy
2. Aldridge
3. Oden
4. Bayless
5. Outlaw
6. Rudy
7. Webster
8. Frye
9. Blake
10. Przybilla
11. Diogu
12. Sergio
13. LaFrentz
14. Batum

I think adjusting to the NBA game will be more difficult than we think for Rudy. But eventually he is going to be AWESOME! That second unit with Bayless, Rudy and Outlaw... along with Frye and Pryz in the post is going to be SICK!


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Canzano's claim is pretty ridiculous. Or at least extreme. He could be right, but the odds are slim. Success in international play isn't anything approaching a guarantee of success, let alone stardom, in the NBA (see: Šarūnas Jasikevičius and others).

I have high hopes for Rudy, but I am not going to expect him to be an impact player right away, and I think that by making this sort of claim Canzano is setting Rudy up to be a fall guy down the road.

Ed O.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> I think that by making this sort of claim Canzano is setting Rudy up to be a fall guy down the road.


yea. That is what makes me upset about claims like this. Its really not fair to Rudy. He isn't going to be a top 3 player for us... i think he would be really lucky to be top 4 next year. I think he will be 5-6 most likely... with Bayless (who i think is more talented, and also doesn't have to get used to the american style from playing International ball all his life).

Rudy has definitely got the skills to be one of our top 4 players, but i really think it will take some time. I think we should lower our expectations during his first year. I mean he is backing up our best player.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

I actually agree with Canzano for once. I think he will be our 2nd or 3rd best player immediately. But eventually, he'll drop a notch or two.

Right now, Roy is the only player we KNOW is better than what Rudy will be. 

Oden hasn't played yet, he's coming off a serious injury, he's young, he plays a position that usually takes some time to get used to. I doubt that IMMEDIATELY...he'll be a top 2 player for us. 

I don't see why this statement is so ridiculous to some of you? 'Immediately' he will be our 2nd or 3rd best player. Eventually...4th in my opinion.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

Rudy isn't "immediately" going to come in and be good right off the bat either. To go from international to the NBA is a pretty big difference. The ball, 3 point line, referees and some of the rules are different. Along with the speed of the game and noticing that everyone in the NBA can ball.

Also, he is coming to a loaded team, where he is coming off the bench and his role might not be what he is used to. He is a backup to our best player right now.

I'd give Oden a better chance than Rudy to immediately come in and be good.

IDK if Rudy will come in and be better than Outlaw immediately either. I think he will be better eventually though, because i think Travis's BBIQ hurts him, while Rudy has a really high BBIQ. So i'd say by the end of the year, Rudy will be our 5th best player.


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## MARIS61 (Apr 28, 2003)

Fork said:


> Right now, Roy is the only player we KNOW is better than what Rudy will be.


Conjecture, with no basis.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

Yea, i don't agree with that because we don't KNOW how good Rudy will be in the NBA.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

MrJayremmie said:


> Yea, i don't agree with that because we don't KNOW how good Rudy will be in the NBA.


Yet you have Oden and Bayless ranked ahead of him on your list of best players on the team? How do we KNOW how good they'll be?

We've seen Fernandez play at a very high level, higher than anything outside the NBA. People saying we don't know how he'll be in the NBA are deluding themselves. The Olympics, the Euroleague (06-07 season, where he played very, very well) ACB, Copa del Rey, etc. That's proof enough. He'll be one of our top 3 players from the get go.

PS - It seems to me that if we hadn't just gotten Bayless in the draft, people wouldn't even be arguing about this. It seems like a lot of 'fans' are just looking to criticize the 'old guy' while giving a pass to the new.


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

Actually I find this thread quite amusing. A lot of folks who beat on Canzano for making a prediction based on one game, and then a lot of them follow rip on Canzano by doing the exact, same thing. The difference being, because it is their prediction, it is somehow right. :biggrin:


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

MrJayremmie said:


> Rudy isn't "immediately" going to come in and be good right off the bat either. To go from international to the NBA is a pretty big difference. The ball, 3 point line, referees and some of the rules are different. Along with the speed of the game and noticing that everyone in the NBA can ball.


But then he'll be in the NBA, so he'll be able to ball!



> Also, he is coming to a loaded team, where he is coming off the bench


..um, you mean like the Spanish National Team?

This is much more likely to be an issue for Bayless. Rudy has had to blend in with older and more talented players all his career. When has Bayless ever not been "the man" on his team?



> and his role might not be what he is used to. He is a backup to our best player right now.


Fair enough, which is why it's a good thing Roy is so versatile.



> I'd give Oden a better chance than Rudy to immediately come in and be good.


I don't think anyone would deny that, if only because (a) centers are more important than guards and (b) there just aren't that many decent centers in the entire NBA.
That said, Oden might also disappoint some people. He's not likely to set the world on fire with his offense, and he WILL get in foul trouble. Plus people are expecting SO much more from him.
(Plus plus, he's coming off fairly major surgery and a year off playing ball other than with NateBishop)



> IDK if Rudy will come in and be better than Outlaw immediately either.


It's hard to compare the two. Rudy will certainly be a better ball-handler and have a better feel for the game. He won't be blocking shots way above the rim so much.

Re: Rudy vs. Bayless: how many winning teams has Bayless been on? How many winning teams has Rudy been on? It seems to me that Rudy has more obviously contributed to his team winning in important situations than Bayless has.

I kind of wish we could see what a less conservative coach would do with our young talent. I have a feeling we're going to see less of BOTH of Bayless and Rudy than we'd like. Just like Sergio (ducks for cover)...


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

It was interesting to see that Doug Collins argued that Spain should play a 3 guard line-up of JC, Ricky and Rudy - and they were able to put pressure on China with this line-up.

I really think that there is a good chance we will see a lot of Bayless/Roy/Rudy line-up - even if it puts us in a disadvantage on the defense against some small-forwards. You have to remember that at the same time - it puts the other team at a disadvantage as well - since their big/powerful small-forward will have to deal with guarding a much faster guard with a good handle.

My gut feeling is that with a good interior defense in the form of Greg/LaMarcus/ or Joel/LaMarcus to pair with them - this is a line that provides more offense than the defense it gives up - which makes it a very attractive line to play. 5 Real scorers with 3 good ball handlers and great interior defense - that's a real headache for the opposing team.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> Yet you have Oden and Bayless ranked ahead of him on your list of best players on the team? How do we KNOW how good they'll be?
> 
> We've seen Fernandez play at a very high level, higher than anything outside the NBA. People saying we don't know how he'll be in the NBA are deluding themselves. The Olympics, the Euroleague (06-07 season, where he played very, very well) ACB, Copa del Rey, etc. That's proof enough. He'll be one of our top 3 players from the get go.
> 
> PS - It seems to me that if we hadn't just gotten Bayless in the draft, people wouldn't even be arguing about this. It seems like a lot of 'fans' are just looking to criticize the 'old guy' while giving a pass to the new.


what? What does that have anything to do with anything? Lots of people made a list so i made my prediction...



> He'll be one of our top 3 players from the get go.


No, no he won't. _edit - you don't have to say anything you don't want to_. You act like its a fact, but more people than not will think that Oden will be better than Rudy right off the bat. Roy, Aldridge and Oden are and will be better than him.



> Re: Rudy vs. Bayless: how many winning teams has Bayless been on? How many winning teams has Rudy been on? It seems to me that Rudy has more obviously contributed to his team winning in important situations than Bayless has.


Right, because that obviously makes Rudy better than Jerryd and doesn't have to do with the rest of the guys surrounding him. He had a bad team in high school around him, yet he led them to the title because he averaged

"In High School, Bayless averaged 37.9 points, 8.0 rebounds, 7.4 assists and 3.2 steals per game to earn Big Schools Player of the Year honors from The Arizona Republic as well as the Republics All-Arizona Team selection four consecutive years"

And geez, coming in as a freshman on an average Arizona team plagued by injuries and leading them in scoring and taking them to the NCAA tourny seems good enough for me.

Bayless was also on the USA team at the Nike Hoop summit in 2007 when USA played the world (like they do anually) and won.



> That said, Oden might also disappoint some people. He's not likely to set the world on fire with his offense, and he WILL get in foul trouble. Plus people are expecting SO much more from him.


Yea, Oden's expectations are way too high. And now people are making Rudy's expectations way too high and setting him up to fail.


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

i find it very hard to believe that rudy will be better than either roy or aldridge. i find it even harder to believe that he'll be better than oden. as much as i like rudy's skill sets, i like roy's, aldridge's, and oden's skill sets much more.

if rudy turns out to be a better player than outlaw for us next year, i'll be happy. i can't wait.


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## NateBishop3 (Jul 22, 2003)

MrJayremmie said:


> No, no he won't. And you not even saying "in your opinion", or "you think" makes it ridiculous. Don't act like its a fact, because more people than not will think that Oden will be better than Rudy right off the bat. Roy, Aldridge and Oden are and will be better than him.


Good writers are trained to stop saying "in my opinion or I think" because it's redundent. He's saying it, it's obviously his opinion, he doesn't need to preface every opinion with those words. I had a hard time shaking that habit though.

Rudy could make an immediate impact next season, but he could also spend a lot of time on the bench. Nate started Roy in his rookie season, but Aldridge rode pine for like half the season. He didn't start getting consistent minutes until late in the season. I'd really like to see what Bayless and Rudy can do in the NBA. Bayless is so powerful for a point guard, I think he could give guys like Chris Paul trouble because of how strong and quick he is. Rudy is the exact opposite, he isn't strong but he's quick and pesky. He could really get under your skin if he was guarding you.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> Good writers are trained to stop saying "in my opinion or I think" because it's redundent. He's saying it, it's obviously his opinion, he doesn't need to preface every opinion with those words. I had a hard time shaking that habit though.


You are correct. HE shouldn't be required to say that. I suppose my poitn was more he argues like its a fact rather than an opinion, when i'm sure he is in the minority.

The fact that he thinks that is great. I would be stoked to have this arguement at mid-season, with someone arguing that Rudy is a top 3 player on our team because that means he is having a great year.

I guess the first part of that came off wrong. Let me fix that.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Fork said:


> Right now, Roy is the only player we KNOW is better than what Rudy will be.


I would say both Roy and Aldridge qualify as "extremely likely to be better than Rudy." Both are established at a fairly high level in the NBA with some more development likely prior to their prime.

Oden is as untested in the NBA as Rudy. However, his talent level is much higher and he's not considered raw. While I wouldn't say we "know" Oden will be better this coming season, I'd be extremely surprised if Oden wasn't better.


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## NateBishop3 (Jul 22, 2003)

Basketball aside, Rudy definitely has the latin lover thing going on. I get the feeling Rudy will be scoring just as much off the court as he will on :biggrin:

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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> I would say both Roy and Aldridge qualify as "extremely likely to be better than Rudy." Both are established at a fairly high level in the NBA with some more development likely prior to their prime.
> 
> Oden is as untested in the NBA as Rudy. However, his talent level is much higher and he's not considered raw. While I wouldn't say we "know" Oden will be better this coming season, I'd be extremely surprised if Oden wasn't better.



With that, Oden _should_ be thrown into a starters role, much like Roy was, but even if he's not, he's only got Przybilla and _maybe_ Frye as serious competition for PT. Rudy, otoh, is basically competing not just with Roy but with the PGs and SFs -- not that Fernandez will necessarily be playing those positions (though I expect he'll defend the PG if/when he and Roy are in the backcourt together) but he has to play enough better than Webster and/or Outlaw to force McMillan to slide Roy to SF and make room at SG for him. I'm not saying it won't happen -- in fact I'm sure it will. I just think that Oden's in a much better position to be playing as many minutes as his body can handle.

With that, defense needs to be played every time down the court and offense not so much. And yes, I get that you can have an offensive impact without touching the ball or setting a screen -- someone like Fernandez can distract defenders by just being a threat. 

Still, I think Oden's defense will be a bigger contribution than Fernandez's offense and Oden's offense should be more valuable than Fernandez's defense.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

hasoos said:


> Actually I find this thread quite amusing. A lot of folks who beat on Canzano for making a prediction based on one game, and then a lot of them follow rip on Canzano by doing the exact, same thing. The difference being, because it is their prediction, it is somehow right. :biggrin:


most of the people ripping on JC here are doing so for projecting Rudy as the starter at SF where he'd be very undersized. If dude did any research he'd know this prior to his first viewing of Rudy a few days ago. He may well be right on projecting RF as the 2nd or 3rd best player opinion though... time will tell. I think he's clearly a stud talent and wouldn't be nearly as surprised to see him starting in the backcourt before the year is out then at SF.

STOMP


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## Superblaze (Aug 6, 2006)

Fork said:


> Yet you have Oden and Bayless ranked ahead of him on your list of best players on the team? How do we KNOW how good they'll be?
> 
> We've seen Fernandez play at a very high level, higher than anything outside the NBA. People saying we don't know how he'll be in the NBA are deluding themselves. The Olympics, the Euroleague (06-07 season, where he played very, very well) ACB, Copa del Rey, etc. That's proof enough. He'll be one of our top 3 players from the get go.
> 
> PS - It seems to me that if we hadn't just gotten Bayless in the draft, people wouldn't even be arguing about this. It seems like a lot of 'fans' are just looking to criticize the 'old guy' while giving a pass to the new.


Great post. I fully agree with this. Rudy has shown that he can play international basketball at a very high level, something that can not be said for Oden or Bayless. Bayless had a great summer league, and Rudy had a great year in Europe last year, and based of that alone you have to place Rudy above Bayless, before either play NBA ball.I think that Rudy is in the top 3 of our best Blazers before we finally see this reassembled team play on the 28th.


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

Serious question:

How many Euro-league players have made an impact as NBA rookies? How many of them were guards?


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## HispanicCausinPanic (Jul 2, 2005)

The only one I can think of would be Sarunas Marchalonis. Spelled wrong of course. I know he played pretty well in Golden State, but I'm not sure of his stats.


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

HispanicCausinPanic said:


> The only one I can think of would be Sarunas Marchalonis. Spelled wrong of course. I know he played pretty well in Golden State, but I'm not sure of his stats.



I'd forgotten about him -- good call. Other European guards that come to mind are, obviously, Drazen Petrovich and Manu Ginobili. All three of those guys have done relatively well. I can't recall the busts, naturally enough.


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

I _wish_ Rudy could come in as the second or third best player on the team. That would really be saying something about his talent, considering the talent of the guys who _should_ be better (or at least, talented and more NBA seasoned) than him (Oden, Roy, Aldridge). 

I haven't read the Spain v. China thread yet; but I Tivo'd the game; took a long lunch; and drove home to watch it. Chalk it up to Blazers Compulsive Disorder (BCD)  

Ya gotta love the way Rudy took the ball right at Yao at the basket (twice) -- that's the way you have to do it. I think Rudy made a believer out of Collins. 

Rudy plays all over the court, on both offense and defense. It's hard to tell how his game is going to translate to the Blazers and the NBA, considering the style of play I've seen the last two games, but I can't wait to find out. 

I think he'll do just fine. :yay:

Edit: The more I think about it, the more I think his talent is perfectly suited as the top 6th man on a wild and wooly second unit. 

Go Blazers.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

Damn, after re-reading this thread it seems like i come across as a Rudy hater. I don't mean to come off like that. I watched his first game 3 times, and now this one vs. china i'm in the middle of #2. I love Rudy. I just hate hype. I don't like it for Greg, and i don't like it for our team. I like the underdog mentality much more, and am not a fan of expectations as it sets up my guys (the blazer players) to fail.

I don't mean to come across as a hater. I think one of the main reasons i like Bayless is because he has been left alone for the most part recently, and he slipped in teh draft, and its said that he can't play PG and etc. But i was probably one of the biggest backers of Rudy's game while he was playing his reg. season in Europe.

Oh well. I can't wait for pre-season to watch Rudy play for our team! (even though i still can't understand how somebody can think he will be better than either greg, Brandon or LMA). I think once he is on our team, and once he has "Blazers" across his chest, a lot will change.


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## HispanicCausinPanic (Jul 2, 2005)

I thought of those 2 others myself. I said no to Petro, because he was buried on the bench. And I actually started to type Manu's name, then I remembered he was from Argentina. He did play in Europe for a few years though.


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## Jayps15 (Jul 21, 2007)

PorterIn2004 said:


> I'd forgotten about him -- good call. Other European guards that come to mind are, obviously, Drazen Petrovich and Manu Ginobili. All three of those guys have done relatively well. I can't recall the busts, naturally enough.


Juan Carlos Navarro had some decent success with Memphis last year as well with ~11/3/2 in 25mpg, and so far in Olympic play he's been pretty clearly inferior to Rudy overall.

I don't expect him to be this good with the Blazers, as not all of what he's able to do with this Spanish team will translate immediately to the NBA, but there are a few things like his court vision for instance that could be even better when he's playing with more athletic finishers for a full season or more. At the moment I'm inclined to say that there's a good chance he's the 4th best Blazer by the end of next season, behind the Big 3 but ahead of a rookie Bayless and the rest of our roleplayers.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Oldmangrouch said:


> Serious question:
> 
> How many Euro-league players have made an impact as NBA rookies? How many of them were guards?


Manu Ginobili counts because he was a Euro-League player.
Toni Kukoc _played_ like a guard.
Anthony Parker I guess had a cup of coffee with the Nets before he went to Europe.
Navarro had _some_ kind of impact, and he was a short, slow gunner.
Drazen and Calderon of course had little impact as rookies...

I'd say Manu is the best comparison, just because he was already established, but still relatively young, and he had the same kind of athletic game, and he came to a very good team. And Manu did have an impact, even if he didn't score that much.
Other recent Euro-guard imports haven't been much like Rudy (particularly the Greek guard in Houston and Jazzy Cabbages, because they've been SLOOOW [Navarro too].)


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> And Manu did have an impact, even if he didn't score that much.


Yea. I think lots of people miss that. His stats weren't great, but there is definitely more to the game than stats. Manu had an impact. I'm expecting somethin' similar from Rudy. I'm not expected to be blown away by his stats, but his contribution will be very noticed.

I swear though, watching this game again, its amazing how much better spain was with Rudy in. We definitely have to get this guy on the court. I really do think we will see a lot more of the 3-guard line-ups, so Rudy or Roy don't have to run the point, but can be the playmakers.

And can you imagine how nice a Bayles/Rudy backourt in the 2nd unit will be? Jesus..


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

For reference, Manu Ginobili at 23-24 years of age in Euroleague (00-01 season)
Average per game:
30 minutes, 15.2 pts, 56% 2pts, 29% 3pts, 4.1 reb, 2 asst, 2.9 steals, 2.5 turnovers, 15.9 ranking (like PER)

Rudy Fernandez at 22-23 in Euroleague. (06-07 season)
Average per game:
26 minutes, 15.8 pts, 55% 2pts, 43% 3pts, 3.8 reb, 1.7 asst, 2.1 steals, 2.2 turnovers, 16.8 ranking (like PER)

Fernandez is a better scorer, a better shooter from 3pt range, similar rebounder and passer, poorer defender (by the numbers)

I think Fernandez, hype or not, will be a much better player than Ginobili and I doubt he takes as long to adjust as Ginobili did. That's why I say he's going to be our 2nd/3rd best player next year. He's a stud and he's proven it against top competition. 

FYI - Fernadez' Euroleague stats and his ACB stats were very similar to one another in the 06-07 season, it's not any sort of stretch to say that he would have shown similar improvement if his team had actually played in the Euroleague last season. Compare THOSE numbers and Fernandez is MUCH more ready than Ginobili was at the same age.


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

MrJayremmie said:


> I swear though, watching this game again, its amazing how much better spain was with Rudy in.


I thought the same thing in both games. Whether he's shooting or not, the team just seems better when he's in. I also liked the one play where Rubio brought the ball up, then gave it to Rudy by the top of the key (shades of Blake to Roy) so Rudy could create. And he did, taking it to the hole and scoring.
:clap:


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## Oldmangrouch (Feb 11, 2003)

HispanicCausinPanic said:


> The only one I can think of would be Sarunas Marchalonis. Spelled wrong of course. I know he played pretty well in Golden State, but I'm not sure of his stats.


I remember Sarunas (GSW right?). Wasn't he more of a SF?

Manu's first 2 seasons were rather inconsistent. Same with Tony Parker. Overall, it seems the learning curve for Euro-League players coming to the NBA isn't very different from college kids. I believe Rudy *will* be good, but not right away.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Oldmangrouch said:


> I remember Sarunas (GSW right?). Wasn't he more of a SF?
> 
> Manu's first 2 seasons were rather inconsistent. Same with Tony Parker. Overall, it seems the learning curve for Euro-League players coming to the NBA isn't very different from college kids. I believe Rudy *will* be good, but not right away.


to be fair, RF is coming in at 23. If you're trying to compare apples to apples for projection purposes, you're talking a very small sample size and not one I'd lean to heavily on. 

The only guys who come in at 23 years old and do well right off the bat are the special players.

STOMP


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

How about Tony Parker? He had even better statistics than Ginobili in the NBA as a rookie. Had he played in the Euroleague prior to being drafted by the Spurs?


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## BuckW4GM (Nov 2, 2005)

Fork said:


> *I think Fernandez, hype or not, will be a much better player than Ginobili* and I doubt he takes as long to adjust as Ginobili did.


i sure hope you're right. a much better ginobili, we would be talking wade's and kobe's level. i think it's nuts to expect rudy to be anywhere near their level. i'd be happy if rudy's as good as a prime derek anderson.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Manu having an impact in his first ever NBA game (against the Lakers!)

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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Fork said:


> I think Fernandez, hype or not, will be a much better player than Ginobili and I doubt he takes as long to adjust as Ginobili did.


I'm a huge Rudy-booster... but that's WAY over the top. Ginobili is one of the top players in the world. He's perpetually underrated because he comes off the bench and plays fewer minutes than he would on a suckier team, but of shooting guards _in the world_ only Kobe Bryant could confidently claim to be better (when both are healthy) and Manu has a higher basketball "IQ" than Bryant (and is a much better teammate). Watch Argentina these days - Ginobili is carrying them. He's a complete and utter superstar. Rudy can only hope to approach that level. (And he'll almost certainly never have Ginobili's handle, defense or court vision.)


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

Thanks for the video of Manu. I can't understand how anyone can call the Spurs a boring team to watch when they have both Manu and Parker on the roster. These guys are exciting players to watch, especially Manu.


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## Anonymous Gambler (May 29, 2006)

meru said:


> I'm a huge Rudy-booster... but that's WAY over the top. Ginobili is one of the top players in the world. He's perpetually underrated because he comes off the bench and plays fewer minutes than he would on a suckier team, but of shooting guards _in the world_ only Kobe Bryant could confidently claim to be better (when both are healthy) and Manu has a higher basketball "IQ" than Bryant (and is a much better teammate). Watch Argentina these days - Ginobili is carrying them. He's a complete and utter superstar. Rudy can only hope to approach that level. (And he'll almost certainly never have Ginobili's handle, defense or court vision.)


Ginobli is not a superstar in the NBA- an allstar level player, yes, but nowhere near Kobe level in the NBA. He's not the best player on the Spurs.

That said, I'd be happy if Rudy was Ginobli-like and I think he's got the potential to be like Ginobli. A lot is up to him- how hard he's willing to work at it. He has the potential to be a better scorer than Ginobli. Defense? We'll see..


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

Fork said:


> For reference, Manu Ginobili at 23-24 years of age in Euroleague (00-01 season)
> Average per game:
> 30 minutes, 15.2 pts, 56% 2pts, 29% 3pts, 4.1 reb, 2 asst, 2.9 steals, 2.5 turnovers, 15.9 ranking (like PER)
> 
> ...


Nice post. I don't know that I have the guts to agree with you, but I definitely appreciate you demonstrating it statistically. It's definitely food for thought. 

I've often wondered how Ginobili's non-NBA stats compared to Fernandez. And it looks pretty darned good. 

In the few Olympic games I've seen Fernandez, I can't help but remember how good Roy looked in his first summer league. Fernandez just has this aura about him of competence and confidence.


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

mook said:


> In the few Olympic games I've seen Fernandez, I can't help but remember how good Roy looked in his first summer league. Fernandez just has this aura about him of competence and confidence.


Rudy does seem supremely confident. It's like he believes he can make a play whenever he needs to, to pull out the game.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

I can't believe ANYONE puts any stock in John Crapzano's ability to evaluate basketball talent. There are >100 people on this board who are better evaluators of NBA talent/potential than the bald faced idiot. Remember folks he wanted the Blazers to Draft the Stache and totally trashed them on the air for their "missed opportunity" when they "screwed up" and took LaMarcus Aldridge and Brandon Roy in 2006. He also thought we should have drafted Pooh Jeter and made him our starting PG. Now, after one game of watching Rudy score 16 against Greece, he declares that he'll be the 2nd or 3rd best player on the team *this season* and people take him seriously?

Jeez, I'm excited about Rudy, too and want him to live up to the hype and high expectations, but there is no way he'll be the 2nd or 3rd best player on the team this season. Roy, Aldridge and Oden will all be better - way better. Rudy will be battling it out with about half a dozen other guys for the honor of being the 4th best player on the roster, and if he is, he will exceed my expectations for his rookie season in the NBA.

BNM


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

has rudy in the olympics looked better than bayless did in summer league?


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

Probably, rocketeer. Just because the level of competition and the ability to show how he can contribute without scoring (Bayless didn't really show that).

But i'm still on the Bayless bandwagon and think he will be better. 30ppg and MVP of the summer league is nothing to ignore though.


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## chairman (Jul 2, 2006)

MrJayremmie said:


> Probably, rocketeer. Just because the level of competition and the ability to show how he can contribute without scoring (Bayless didn't really show that).
> 
> But i'm still on the Bayless bandwagon and think he will be better. 30ppg and MVP of the summer league is nothing to ignore though.


Yeah I agree. Rudy at this point is a little more polished. (4 years older) I was very excited by his hustle against China. He kept so many plays alive with his tips. He just looks like he is one of those guys who can play with anyone and in any style because ne never stops moving and he is a very good passer.

Bayless one the other hand will still have a bigger long term impact. But right now I see a nice three guard rotation with Roy, Bayless and Rudy in another year.


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## HispanicCausinPanic (Jul 2, 2005)

I just can't look at Manu as a Euro player.


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## Ed O (Dec 30, 2002)

Anonymous Gambler said:


> Ginobli is not a superstar in the NBA- an allstar level player, yes, but nowhere near Kobe level in the NBA. He's not the best player on the Spurs.


Further, the guy has only played 30 minutes a game in one season... this past one. He averages fewer than 28 minutes a game over his career.

Superstars tend to play significantly more minutes. Kobe, for example, has averaged over 36 minutes a game. Tim Duncan, proving that not all Spurs are as limited as Manu, has played over 37 minutes a game.

Manu is what he is: a good player who plays primarily off the bench. He'd be capable of starting, of course, but he's more effective in limited minutes because he doesn't have to carry the burden of being a star in the NBA.

Ed O.


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## BBert (Dec 30, 2004)

rocketeer said:


> has rudy in the olympics looked better than bayless did in summer league?


Absolutely. The competition is infinitely better; and his game is much, much more complete. Rudy is contributing in every facet of the game, and without dominating the ball. How well his game translates to the Blazers has yet to be seen, but it appears he has the tools and the court awareness.

By the way, Boob-No-More...I agree completely. I've rarely come across anyone as lousy at talent evaluation as John Canzano. And as someone else posted much earlier, it appears John may be up to his old trick of creating unrealistic expectations so he'll have a vehicle to make Rudy a fall guy later on, when he needs one to write about. Just say no to Canzano, the Bald Faced Idiot Muckraker.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

guys, the competition for spain so far in the olympics has not been so much better than the summer league competition that playing well there automatically means rudy has played better. the competition definitely is better, but a summer league team could have better guard play than a team like china. and as far as rudy showing things other than scoring, he has that luxury playing with the gasol brothers, garbajosa, calderon, navarro, lopez, and rubio all who have played or will play in the nba.

not to say that any of you are wrong by saying rudy has been better. i'm just not sure those two reasons are good enough. i haven't gotten a chance to catch any of the spain games yet, but hopefully i will be able to watch some of them and see for myself.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

Yea, you should def. watch the Spain games first.

Specially the China game. You can catch the "rewind" on NBColympics.com i believe. I watched the replay yesterday by clicking on the USA-ANG game and then clicking the Spain-China game in the related videos.


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