# Top 10 Contenders for Next Year



## JuniorNoboa

Obviously defections can never be fully determined at this point, who do you see right now as strong candidates for the top 10 next year.


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## TM

Dod you know Georgetown doesn't have a single senior on their roster? I was surprised by that. I'm assuming Monroe will leave early though. Otherwise they'd easily be in my Top 3... I know your boys lose a couple starters, JN, but they're basically replacing those guys with that recruiting, right?SO early right now. As usual, there are quite a few guys who need to decide before we have any idea what teams will be good.


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## Nimreitz

I can't even begin thinking about that yet, but Purdue for sure.


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## coolpohle

As far as a darkhorse goes, look out for Illinois next year. Tisdale and McCamey will both be seniors, and they are only losing Keller to graduation. They have a nice incoming trio of freshman coming in as well, including Jereme Richmond. The Illini could easily be a top 10 team.


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## Geaux Tigers

My brain is having trouble with this question. It's really really early! I do like the challenge though despite how bumpworthy this thread is going to be.

Purdue should return Hummell, Moore, and Johnson (will any of those be able to jump this year?) and they have a really strong recruiting class coming in. They lose a lot of defense and intangibles by Kramer graduating, but that really shouldn't be a problem. That team is going to be super strong.


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## Nimreitz

Illinois will still be under Purdue and Michigan State in the pecking order of the Big Ten. Purdue's three best players Hummel, Moore, and Johnson will all be seniors, and as far as MSU goes, I don't think Kalin Lucas leaves early meaning they only lose Raymar Morgan (good riddance I'd say).


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## coolpohle

If Lucas stays, Michigan St. should win the conference, but considering he's a likely 1st round pick this spring I think he leaves. As a result, I have Illinois winning the conference. 

Purdue is going to miss Grant and Kramer more than people realize - much like how MSU has struggled this year due to the losses of Suton and Walton. Purdue's underclassmen off the bench this season have been nothing short of awful - and they won't live up to expectations next year as a result, imo.


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## coolpohle

As a side note, I have absolutely no idea who will be the #1 team next season. So many of the top teams this year are losing 3+ starters.


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## HB

Memphis will have a resurgence


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## TM

HB said:


> Memphis will have a resurgence


Elliot Williams a preseason All-American??


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## HB

Ummm not sure with the points at the position, should be in the running though


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## coolpohle

Williams will most likely enter the draft after this season.


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## Nimreitz

coolpohle said:


> Williams will most likely enter the draft after this season.


No way. I know he's up there at Draft Express, but that would be a total shock. He's just not there at this point.


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## coolpohle

And Favors is? If it wasn't for Williams, Memphis would be like 15-12 right now. He's completely carrying that team on his back. I mean, he's shooting 38% from deep, 49% overall, 19 PPG, 4 RPG, 4 APG, he gets to the line a ton, steals the ball, and he's doing all this as a sophomore. If he's not ready, I'm not sure many are.


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## Nimreitz

It's different with Favors and you should know that. If you don't, I just don't know what to tell you my friend.


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## coolpohle

How is it different? If Favors is ready for the NBA, Williams sure as hell is.


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## Nimreitz

coolpohle said:


> How is it different? If Favors is ready for the NBA, Williams sure as hell is.


Favors is not ready to tear up the NBA, but guards are EASY to find and big men are scarce. Any team can go to the D-League and find a guy capable of putting up 20 points per game with enough touches. No team can go to the D-League and grab someone like Favors. Also: Favors is top 5, Elliot Williams is not a guaranteed first rounder, which makes them NOT ANALOGOUS AT ALL. Did you really need that explained? I know you focus on college ball, but come on man.


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## coolpohle

Favors is not ready for the NBA. Just because he's a big guy doesn't mean he should be a top five pick. I mean, Favors is projected ahead of Cousins...seriously? Guards with Williams' talent and potential are not easy to find.


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## Nimreitz

coolpohle said:


> Favors is not ready for the NBA. Just because he's a big guy doesn't mean he should be a top five pick. I mean, Favors is projected ahead of Cousins...seriously? Guards with Williams' talent and potential are not easy to find.


Favors WILL be a top five pick. That's all that matters. He will leave.

I could go through the D-League rosters and list 10 guys I'd rather have than Elliot Williams, but what's the point? Let me just put it this way: what separates him from JamesOn Curry? Thank you.


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## Rather Unique

coolpohle said:


> *Favors is not ready for the NBA. Just because he's a big guy doesn't mean he should be a top five pick*. I mean, Favors is projected ahead of Cousins...seriously? Guards with Williams' talent and potential are not easy to find.


C'mon CP, while that very well maybe true, you must know how the NBA works. If you're a BIG and promising with alot of potential your going high period. I like Williams too but there are just many more guards w/ potential than there are Bigs. To judge Favors and Elliot Williams in the same courtroom is just silly, specially when the NBA is involved.


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## coolpohle

Rather Unique said:


> C'mon CP, while that very well maybe true, you must know how the NBA works. If you're a BIG and promising with alot of potential your going high period. I like Williams too but there are just many more guards w/ potential than there are Bigs. To judge Favors and Elliot Williams in the same courtroom is just silly, specially when the NBA is involved.


I didn't mean to necessarily compare the two like that, my point is that there are guys every year that leave when they're not ready, and Williams is certainly ready.


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## coolpohle

Nimreitz said:


> I could go through the D-League rosters and list 10 guys I'd rather have than Elliot Williams.


Then you're making a mistake.


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## SheriffKilla

Kansas State and BYU final 4??? Next year is gonna be a pretty weak year if Purdue returns the big 3 they are the likely favorites


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## Nimreitz

coolpohle said:


> Then you're making a mistake.


Cool, you are extremely knowledgeable about college basketball, but you don't know **** about evaluating talent for the NBA.


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## JuniorNoboa

If Singler stays, Duke will be a contender again.

Smith-Irving-Singler-Plumlee-Plumlee would be a nice starting lineup.


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## Nimreitz

Not bad, but it would look a lot different than the Duke teams we've seen recently. I wonder how K would coach them.


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## JuniorNoboa

BYU and New Mexico both return four of there five starters next year, including there leading scorer. Wonder if BYU will be impacted by players leaving on a mission, or helped by players coming back.


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## Diable

I'm assuming Singler stays and that Duke will be as good or better than they are this year. They need the Plumlee brothers to step up for them to contend though. Irving will be the first legit PG they've had since the last time they were really competing for titles. Seth Curry is apparently very impressive in practice, although that's not where it counts.


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## TucsonClip

Memphis is going to be legit next year. I like Illinois as well, tons of talent there.

I really think UNC bounces back into a strong team.


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## coolpohle

Nimreitz said:


> Cool, you are extremely knowledgeable about college basketball, but you don't know **** about evaluating talent for the NBA.


Because I think Favors is overrated, Williams should go pro, and Scheyer should be drafted? Yeah, okay.


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## TM

Nimreitz said:


> Not bad, but it would look a lot different than the Duke teams we've seen recently. I wonder how K would coach them.


like the late '90s and early 2000's when they actually had athletic PGs


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## Nimreitz

TM said:


> like the late '90s and early 2000's when they actually had athletic PGs


And more than one big guy on the floor at the same time.


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## TM

Nimreitz said:


> And more than one big guy on the floor at the same time.


Every Final Four team since '99 had more than 1 big man. The 4 position just always played inside and outside. None of those teams had 2 back-to-the-basket bigs. Next year's won't either. There's no way they're going to get Mason to become a back-to-the-basket guy. From what I've seen and heard, Hairston isn't a post-up guy either. If anything, I'd have to think they're going to run more 4 around 1 motion than the 3-2 stuff they do with Zoubek/Thomas/Miles/Mason this year. I guess it all depends on Mason's improvement. I'll be interested to see what they get him to focus on this offseason. Ball-handling/perimeter stuff or inside play? Well, it'll depends on Mason's improvement and obviously the starting rotation. Irving-Smith-Singler-Plumlee-Plumlee? Irving-Curry-Smith-Singler-Ma. Plumlee? Princeton offense with 5 out???


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## SheriffKilla

Is Singler coming back?


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## thatsnotgross

Looking at the Big East

Villanova (this year's freshmen will take more of a role)
Georgetown (Chris Wright is a lethal weapon along with Freeman and their class)
Pittsburgh (Surprise team this year and will have another year under their belt)
Syracuse (Will lose Oanuaku and Johnson but have the players to plug them in, Kris Joseph and Fab Melo)
Marquette (Huge freshmen class playing beyond their years)
Cincinnati (Lance Stephensen, Wright, and Yancy Gates makes a very good trio)
Louisville (Another year with Samuels, Williams, and Siva)
Seton Hall 

Will go down...
ND (Luke Harangody the most celebrated Big East player but has nothing to show for)
WVU (Will lose D'Sean Butler and might lose Ebanks)


Not too sure about...
South florida (They have the bigs but will lose Dominique Jones)
Providence (Keno can coach and has been recruiting really hard)
St. Johns (Huge senior class but still hasn't shown an ounce of potential)
UConn (don't know where they are heading, they have the bigs to contend and Kemba Walker will be a Junior along with a strong recruiting class)

The Craps....
Depaul (Enough said)
Rutgers (even though they have an All American, Newcomer of the year Dante Miller, the coach literally sucks butt)

Need to find a new coach...
Rutgers - to replace Fred Hill
Depaul - to replace that interim coach


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## HKF

St. John's needs to fire Norm Roberts. It's been 6 years already. The guy is terrible.


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## SheriffKilla

Agreed on Norm Roberts
Vilanova looks like the class of the Big East for next season even with Reynods and Redding gone, Jay Wright has build a great program


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## zagsfan20

The Zags never go anywhere.


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## TM

zagsfan20 said:


> The Zags never go anywhere.


If they lose Bouldin and Harris, do you think that'll change?


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## coolpohle

Gonzaga isn't even a top ten team this year, and they're going to lose two players to the NBA.


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## rebelsun

Nobody really stands out, but here are some interesting ones...

Villanova - Wright has really created a class program; an emerging Duke-like environment. They lose Reynolds and Redding, but have young, competent guards ready to play now. They have 3 quality frontcourt guys coming in; the biggest question mark with them is Cory Joseph. If he signs (I think he ultimately goes to Texas with his Findlay Prep pals Avery Johnson and Tristan Thompson, though), I would probably put them as preseason #1. 

GTown - If Monroe comes back, they'll be damn tough. Nobody's leaving and they add both a quality point and post.

Duke - If Singler comes back, and their bigs can actually contribute, they'll be interesting. Scheyer is gone, but Irving is the dynamic point they haven't had, and needed, since Jay Williams. The addition of Curry, as well, more than compensates. I'm not sure losing Thomas and Zoubek is an actual loss; Lance was remarkably unproductive. The brothers Plumli and Ryan Kelly have another year of needed experience. I think they're still lacking interior defense/toughness, though; they need a bull to complement all the long, finesse guys.

Michigan St - I'm not sure they have the talent to win it all, but they have a ton of experience coming back and have a solid class coming in. They'll be a tough out. 

North Carolina - Yeah, they're horrible this year, but I think next year will make everyone forget about this one. The key is Ed Davis coming back; they'll really need his post defense. Regardless, they'll need Henson to continue to assert himself; he should be a devastating college PF. Their perimeter scoring is anemic, but I think Reggie Bullock will assert himself early. They'll have a lot of versatility, with Barnes and Henson especially, and will have a lot of different combinations to play with. There's a lot of work to do, but there's a ton of talent here that just needs continued maturity and organization. I would love to see a Marshall/Bullock/Barnes/Henson/Davis lineup - stupidly talented for the college level. 

Kentucky - I would guess that Wall, Cousins, and Patterson are all leaving, but the spots will be filled nicely. I think Knight and Leslie are the safest to sign, and Cal will fill the remaining out of a pool of interesting guys like Jones, Ross, Lamb, Kanter, etc - I think Kanter's post skill is most needed. They'll be young and won't have nearly the same post offense they had a year ago, but there's still a lot of talent playing in a successful system.


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## HB

I am sorry but how can you say UNC's perimeter scoring is anemic with Harrison Barnes, Reggie Bullock and Kendall Marshall. Drew II and Strickland will be coming off the bench, their rightful positions. Our perimeter game is the last thing I am worried about, its our soft front court that bothers me because no doubt in my mind Davis is a goner.

Also not sure Knight is going to Kentucky, Cal was scouting Joseph a while back. Knight might end up at Florida.

A bit surprised Memphis didn't make your list, they are like this year's Villanova, I think they have 7 new recruits coming, 3 of them I believe are 5 stars.


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## TM

HB said:


> Also not sure Knight is going to Kentucky, Cal was scouting Joseph a while back. Knight might end up at Florida.


Might want to go check the Brandon Knight thread in the recruiting forum...

Also, looking for a legit prediction/analysis from someone who really knows UNC basketball but isn't a homer...


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## Rather Unique

HB said:


> Also not sure Knight is going to Kentucky, Cal was scouting Joseph a while back. Knight might end up at Florida.


I wish HB but i don't think so on Knight to UF. I'm gonna go curse Calipari now...


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## HB

Rather Unique said:


> I wish HB but i don't think so on Knight to UF. I'm gonna go curse Calipari now...


Well cant blame him for going to UK. Cal's been getting top notch point guards for a while now.


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## zagsfan20

coolpohle said:


> Gonzaga isn't even a top ten team this year, and they're going to lose two players to the NBA.


The Zags are a fringe top 10 team right now, after the WCC tourney they will be a legit top 10 team. They're losing Bouldin to the NBA, thats it. Harris isn't going anywhere, atleast for another year.

The Zags are the 7th youngest team in the nation right now.


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## zagsfan20

TM said:


> If they lose Bouldin and Harris, do you think that'll change?


Harris isn't going anywhere.


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## kansasalumn

I think KU would be on the bottom half of the top 10 next season. 

at Guards
Twshawn Taylor hopefully would improve TO more than anything
Tryrell Reed and Brady Morningstar will be good Seniors to lead the team
We also get Travis Relaford and Mario Little off Redshirt. Little just two years ago was the best JUCO player in the game, and Releford was a top 50 player
Eligih Johnson shows some brilliance in his short time playing
CJ Henry is back, and maybe X which I doubt. If he stays Top 5 team
and incoming Freshman Royce Woodridge
Forwrds/Center
Morris brothers will be back
JOhnosn big bruiser at lot like Darnell Jackson
Jeff Withy as our Big Center
I doubt COle will be back


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## coolpohle

zagsfan20 said:


> The Zags are a fringe top 10 team right now, after the WCC tourney they will be a legit top 10 team. They're losing Bouldin to the NBA, thats it. Harris isn't going anywhere, atleast for another year.
> 
> The Zags are the 7th youngest team in the nation right now.


Do you consider New Mexico a top ten team then, too? lolol...Harris could easily be a lottery pick this year. I have a hard time believing he stays.


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## JuniorNoboa

coolpohle said:


> Do you consider New Mexico a top ten team then, too? lolol...Harris could easily be a lottery pick this year. I have a hard time believing he stays.


If the legendary Derek Raivio stays for four years then everyone else will.


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## JuniorNoboa

I will follow Gonzaga alot though next year. there 5-8th player in terms of minutes (Sacre, Olynyk, Kong, Arop) are all Canadian and are all underclassmen currently.


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## zagsfan20

coolpohle said:


> Do you consider New Mexico a top ten team then, too? lolol...Harris could easily be a lottery pick this year. I have a hard time believing he stays.


Harris is a rare bird. He skipped out on getting a big payday in Germany so he could come to the U.S. and experience the college life. He's not going anywhere for at least another year.

Gray, Sacre and Goodson return. A nice recruiting class coming in and freshman who have been key contributors this year like; Arop, Kong, Olynyk and Gibbs are just going to get better. 

Your lack of knowledge of Gonzaga hoops, surely doesn't stop you from acting like you know what your talking about. Its okay though, I'm not trying crush your cyber ego.


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## zagsfan20

JuniorNoboa said:


> I will follow Gonzaga alot though next year. there 5-8th player in terms of minutes (Sacre, Olynyk, Kong, Arop) are all Canadian and are all underclassmen currently.


. . . and are all contributors that can play. Olynyk will have a breakout year next year. First team all WCC type success. Dower coming off a redshirt year will be a great player too. We don't rebuild, we just re-tool.


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## coolpohle

zagsfan20 said:


> Harris is a rare bird. He skipped out on getting a big payday in Germany so he could come to the U.S. and experience the college life. He's not going anywhere for at least another year.
> 
> Gray, Sacre and Goodson return. A nice recruiting class coming in and freshman who have been key contributors this year like; Arop, Kong, Olynyk and Gibbs are just going to get better.
> 
> Your lack of knowledge of Gonzaga hoops, surely doesn't stop you from acting like you know what your talking about. Its okay though, I'm not trying crush your cyber ego.


lol, can you imagine what this forum would be like if 95% of everyone's posts were about their favorite team? Half your posts are about how you want to suck off Matt Bouldin. Sweet dude, sweet.

Big Payday in Germany? lol, right. Or he could show what he can do here and get lottery money in three months...?

Lack of Gonzaga knowledge? I'm not the one who said they weren't going to lose a conference game this season. You did. Last time I checked, they lost to (gulp) San Francisco and Loyola Marymount. My goodness. Sorry if I don't consider team with losses as ugly as those, or a 35 point loss on their resume a top 10 team. Then again, only a fool would.


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## Geaux Tigers

zagsfan20 said:


> The Zags are a fringe top 10 team right now, after the WCC tourney they will be a legit top 10 team. They're losing Bouldin to the NBA, thats it. Harris isn't going anywhere, atleast for another year.
> 
> The Zags are the 7th youngest team in the nation right now.


Matt Bouldin won't play a game in the NBA.



JuniorNoboa said:


> If the legendary Derek Raivio stays for four years then everyone else will.


Almost said the exact same thing.



coolpohle said:


> lol, can you imagine what this forum would be like if 95% of everyone's posts were about their favorite team? Half your posts are about how you want to suck off Matt Bouldin. Sweet dude, sweet.
> 
> Big Payday in Germany? lol, right. Or he could show what he can do here and get lottery money in three months...?
> 
> Lack of Gonzaga knowledge? I'm not the one who said they weren't going to lose a conference game this season. You did. Last time I checked, they lost to (gulp) San Francisco and Loyola Marymount. My goodness. Sorry if I don't consider team with losses as ugly as those, or a 35 point loss on their resume a top 10 team. Then again, only a fool would.


Boom.


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## Willo

Gonzaga is not a top 10 team. They are a good team, but I don't know, at this point, how they get to the Sweet 16 without a really favorable draw.


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## Blue

It's been a good minute and this is a homer pick, but I think Florida is finally back next season. I dont know about top 10, but 20 for sure... Only losin one senior in Dan Werner, (which is pretty much a non-factor) and likely bringing in 2 McD's AA's(Patric Young, and 1 of either Ray McCallum or Brandon Knight). Next year will easily be Billy's deepest and most experienced team since '07.


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## zagsfan20

coolpohle said:


> lol, can you imagine what this forum would be like if 95% of everyone's posts were about their favorite team? Half your posts are about how you want to suck off Matt Bouldin. Sweet dude, sweet.
> 
> Big Payday in Germany? lol, right. Or he could show what he can do here and get lottery money in three months...?
> 
> Lack of Gonzaga knowledge? I'm not the one who said they weren't going to lose a conference game this season. You did. Last time I checked, they lost to (gulp) San Francisco and Loyola Marymount. My goodness. Sorry if I don't consider team with losses as ugly as those, or a 35 point loss on their resume a top 10 team. Then again, only a fool would.


95% of my posts are not about my favorite team. I have over 8,000 posts and have been contributing to these boards much longer than you. I'd say of those 8,000 posts, 5-7 % of them pertain to the Zags.

Your a betting man, what do you want to bet about the Elias Harris going to the draft? You make me an offer. He's not going anywhere, atleast for another year.


As for losing a couple conference games, so be it. What does that homer statement have to do with my knowledge of the Zags? I can find plenty of ranked teams with bad losses. Its kind of hard winning the conference 10 years in a row. Name me another team that can say that? Every once in awhile a team in a crackerbox gym that circles the calendar is going to catch a good team off guard.


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## Ghost

as a gonzaga fan we wont win more than 1 game in this tourn, Goodsen should not be used as a selling point in a positive way.

Manny Arop is the player I am excited for


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## coolpohle

zagsfan20 said:


> As for losing a couple conference games, so be it. What does that homer statement have to do with my knowledge of the Zags? I can find plenty of ranked teams with bad losses. Its kind of hard winning the conference 10 years in a row. Name me another team that can say that? Every once in awhile a team in a crackerbox gym that circles the calendar is going to catch a good team off guard.


It has to do with your knowledge of the Zags because you said that they wouldn't lose a conference game. It just goes to show your ridiculous homerism. Top 10 teams don't lose to San Francisco and Loyola Marymount.


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## bball2223

If Irving is the real deal next year and the Plumlee brothers step up I honestly think Duke is the favorites in my mind at least up to this point, which pains me to say as a Tar Heel fan.


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## Jonathan Watters

If Elias Harris comes back, Gonzaga won't miss a beat. His return might make him the best player in the country, he's that good. There is a lot of talent on the bench, as somebody already mentioned. 

Another team I would keep in mind for top 10 consideration is UTEP - maybe Caracter leaves, but if he comes back they definitely deserve consideration. 

UNC will be back, though the national title talk is fantasy at this point. Duke probably puts in another 30 win regular season, and the tobacco road rivalry heats up again.

I really could see Purdue getting #1 headed into the year. But the person that mentioned Illinois is spot on - Weber hasn't coached this much talent, depth and experience since 05. Illini=real deal.


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## zagsfan20

coolpohle said:


> It has to do with your knowledge of the Zags because you said that they wouldn't lose a conference game. It just goes to show your ridiculous homerism. Top 10 teams don't lose to San Francisco and Loyola Marymount.


Because being a homer and having knowledge of a team is the same thing?


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## Jonathan Watters

zagsfan20 said:


> Because being a homer and having knowledge of a team is the same thing?


I don't think the Zags are all that great, but it has nothing to do with their two conference losses. What Butler has done this year is spectacular, and good mid-major teams shouldn't be penalized for losing 1 or 2 conference road games. It is going to happen.


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## coolpohle

Jonathan Watters said:


> I don't think the Zags are all that great, but it has nothing to do with their two conference losses. What Butler has done this year is spectacular, and good mid-major teams shouldn't be penalized for losing 1 or 2 conference road games. It is going to happen.


There's a difference between losing to St. Mary's or Portland versus losing to San Francisco and Loyola Marymount. Top ten teams don't lose to teams that bad.


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## zagsfan20

coolpohle said:


> There's a difference between losing to St. Mary's or Portland versus losing to San Francisco and Loyola Marymount. Top ten teams don't lose to teams that bad.


We kicked St. Mary's *** twice and beat Portland twice. Because a team over looks a game or two in a stagnant conference doesn't mean jack. It might in your world, but it doesn't to the selection committee.


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## coolpohle

zagsfan20 said:


> We kicked St. Mary's *** twice and beat Portland twice. Because a team over looks a game or two in a stagnant conference doesn't mean jack. It might in your world, but it doesn't to the selection committee.


Wait is that another post about Gonzaga? I think it might be creeping up to 96 or 97%. 

Yes, those losses do matter to the committee. Losses hurt your resume which hurt your RPI which hurt your seed. Especially sub 200 RPI losses.


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## zagsfan20

coolpohle said:


> Wait is that another post about the Zags. I think it might be creeping up to 96 or 97%.
> 
> Yes, those losses do matter to the committee. Losses hurt your resume which hurt your RPI which hurt your seed. Especially sub 200 RPI losses.


We'll still get a favorable seed. Your on crack if you really think we'll be a 9 seed. 

Likely a 4 or a 5 in Spokane.


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## coolpohle

zagsfan20 said:


> We'll still get a favorable seed. Your on crack if you really think we'll be a 9 seed.
> 
> Likely a 4 or a 5 in Spokane.


Let's see how they do in the WCC tourney. Don't forget, the Zags only have one win over a team that's likely to be in the NCAA tournament. Their resume might be good to a Gonzaga fan, but to an unbiased observer, there resume is nothing that stands out.

Gonzaga's projected end of season RPI is currently at #38. That translates to a 10. It's not like I'm just randomly saying I hate the Zags so I'm giving them a bad seed.


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## Jonathan Watters

coolpohle said:


> There's a difference between losing to St. Mary's or Portland versus losing to San Francisco and Loyola Marymount. Top ten teams don't lose to teams that bad.


Definitely not a Top 10 team this year. But I don't think that puts them out of contention for next year, necessarily...


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## Rather Unique

zagsfan20 said:


> We kicked St. Mary's *** twice and beat Portland twice. *Because a team over looks a game or two in a stagnant conference doesn't mean jack. It might in your world, but it doesn't to the selection committee.*


Then why the hell do they have a "Bad losses" category whenever speaking of teams and their resumes??

With as much stuff that the committee looks through to determine seeding you're crazy if you think they don't at least look at who you lose to.


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## kansasalumn

since when this became a zag thread? they will not be a top 10 team this year or next


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## zagsfan20

kansasalumn said:


> since when this became a zag thread? they will not be a top 10 team this year or next


lol, your a funny guy.


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## Willo

Butler has a much better shot of being a top ten team than Gonzaga.


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## Nimreitz

zagsfan20 said:


> lol, your a funny guy.


How is that in any way a ridiculous statement?


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## kansasalumn

zagsfan20 said:


> lol, your a funny guy.



i am funny, but I am also telling the truth. Yes Gonzaga is a good team, and they have one of hte best young coaches. But by no means they are a top 10 team unless they beat the top teams during thier non-con then I would consider them a top 10 team


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## Willo

New Mexico, BYU, Butler and whoever wins the A-10 has a better claim at being a top 10 team than Gonzaga. And, again, Butler is only losing one of it's top six players. They are loaded with Sophomores. They should be good for another two years.


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## kansasalumn

BTW once Few finally move to a better program, I feel Gonzaga might slip a notch or two from being a fringe top 15 team to a finge top 30 team


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## coolpohle

kansasalumn said:


> BTW once Few finally move to a better program, I feel Gonzaga might slip a notch or two from being a fringe top 15 team to a finge top 30 team


Few's had plenty of opportunities to leave if he wanted to. Zagsfan can comment better on this, but I don't think he's going anywhere.


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## TM

kansasalumn said:


> BTW once Few finally move to a better program, I feel Gonzaga might slip a notch or two from being a fringe top 15 team to a finge top 30 team


he didn't leave for Arizona. Who's he going to leave for this time? Oregon? hmmm

and didn't they say that, ka, when dan monson left?


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## kansasalumn

TM said:


> he didn't leave for Arizona. Who's he going to leave for this time? Oregon? hmmm
> 
> and didn't they say that, ka, when dan monson left?


yeah true. I do not think Few would leave. He did took his name out of the KU hat when KU was looking to replace Roy (Turegon and Self and Stallings were top 3 choices though)


----------



## Jonathan Watters

Willo said:


> New Mexico, BYU, Butler and whoever wins the A-10 has a better claim at being a top 10 team than Gonzaga. And, again, Butler is only losing one of it's top six players. They are loaded with Sophomores. They should be good for another two years.


UTEP UTEP UTEP UTEP UTEP UTEP UTEP UTEP

UTEP. 

.


----------



## zagsfan20

TM said:


> he didn't leave for Arizona. Who's he going to leave for this time? Oregon? hmmm
> 
> and didn't they say that, ka, when dan monson left?


Few's a pretty content and grounded guy. Money is really of not much issue with him, he is already compensated nicely anyways. He's turned down UW, Stanford, Oregon (a few times) and Arizona.  

His wife is from Spokane, he has young kids he wants to raise there, he loves everything that the area offers and he's king in town. Not to mention, he can recruit with the likes of the bigger programs.

He's not going anywhere any time soon. He's got what he wants and he's comfortable.


----------



## zagsfan20

Nimreitz said:


> How is that in any way a ridiculous statement?


Because the difference between being a top 15 team and a top 10 team isn't some kind of paramount barrier. Without a couple slips this year, we could be talking about Gonzaga as a top 10 team.


----------



## bball2223

zagsfan20 said:


> Because the difference between being a top 15 team and a top 10 team isn't some kind of paramount barrier. Without a couple slips this year, we could be talking about Gonzaga as a top 10 team.


But you slipped up, so your not a top 10 team. Plus without all-world PG Matt Bouldin how will they be better next year? :whiteflag:


----------



## zagsfan20

bball2223 said:


> But you slipped up, so your not a top 10 team. Plus without all-world PG Matt Bouldin how will they be better next year? :whiteflag:


People ask how they keep it up every year and someone steps up. Its a never ending trend.


----------



## BlueBaron

Few will leave eventually. I hear UNC may be looking for a new coach.


----------



## SheriffKilla

bball2223 said:


> If Irving is the real deal next year and the Plumlee brothers step up I honestly think Duke is the favorites in my mind at least up to this point, which pains me to say as a Tar Heel fan.


Agreed especially with the Hummel injury but Irving is hard to judge. He will be a good player but Im just not sure how good particulary in his first year...
Villanova is gonna be tough also. I think Reynolds wont be as big of a loss as it may seem. Fisher should step up and their FR class from this year should be ready to make an impact


----------



## SheriffKilla

And zagsfan most on this board have their favorite team and of course they are biased towards them in their own ways. But you are going overboard. I dont really remember how your posting was in previous years but this season literally every post is dickriding Gonzaga. Get over it man... The rare instances that you post about other topics you seem to know your stuff but all the Gonzaga posts are just terrible homerism. If you sucked at other posts I wouldnt bother with this but I know you got the ability to be a good poster and I wanna see that instead of just licking Bouldins balls


----------



## HB

*Things might be getting interesting y'all*


----------



## zagsfan20

HB said:


> *Things might be getting interesting y'all*


He needs to. He will get abused in the post in the NBA for a couple years. Put some muscle on that kid or he'll wind up sitting on bench licking his wounds like Brandan Wright has his first couple years in the league.


----------



## bball2223

zagsfan20 said:


> People ask how they keep it up every year and someone steps up. Its a never ending trend.


I was just giving you a hard time. I think Gonzaga has a chance to be really good next year, but top 10 we will see. Hows their recruiting class?


----------



## dwilliams01

1. North Carolina
2. Villanova
3. Duke
4. Michigan State
5. Purdue
6. Pittsburgh
7. West Virginia
8. Kansas State
9. Butler
10. New Mexico

Also Georgetown, Kansas and Kentucky depending on who comes back


----------



## TM

UNC as #1? Absolutely not. You can't go from being that bad to being #1, especially without Ed Davis in the picture. None of those freshman will have season comparable to John Wall or DeMarcus Cousins, not even Barnes. Even then, it doesn't batter if he does, because Bullock and/or Marshall aren't going to have the same kind of impact.

I don't care if you put them in the top 10, but #1 is ludicrous.


----------



## coolpohle

TM said:


> UNC as #1? Absolutely not. You can't go from being that bad to being #1, especially without Ed Davis in the picture. None of those freshman will have season comparable to John Wall or DeMarcus Cousins, not even Barnes. Even then, it doesn't batter if he does, because Bullock and/or Marshall aren't going to have the same kind of impact.
> 
> I don't care if you put them in the top 10, but #1 is ludicrous.


I agree. No matter how good your incoming class is, there are other teams that have classes similar (like Ohio St. for example), and there are teams that have way more returning. UNC will be good next year, but you don't go from NIT to #1. Especially when you lose Davis and Thompson and none of this year's freshman have played well.


----------



## rocketeer

i think texas has a decent shot at being a top 10 team if they can land corey joseph. since he plays in high school with tristan thompson(and played with avery bradley last year assuming he went to the same school last year) and plays aau with thompson and myck kabongo, i feel like texas probably has a pretty decent shot.


----------



## Nimreitz

zagsfan20 said:


> People ask how they keep it up every year and someone steps up. Its a never ending trend.


Hi Gonzaga, I'm Wisconsin. We have a lot in common.


----------



## HB

No need to bash the man about his number 1 pick, dont worry even if we dont start there, we will end there. And TM who told you none of those freshmen will have seasons comparable to Wall and Cousins? Barnes is a 20ppg scorer on the college level.


----------



## Nimreitz

HB said:


> No need to bash the man about his number 1 pick, dont worry even if we dont start there, we will end there. And TM who told you none of those freshmen will have seasons comparable to Wall and Cousins? Barnes is a 20ppg scorer on the college level.


As a freshman? Dude, there are 7 major conference players who have 20+ ppg this year. None are freshies and all of them are the only source of their team's offense.


----------



## HB

He's capable but he most likely wont because of Roy's rotations and such.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> No need to bash the man about his number 1 pick, *dont worry even if we dont start there, we will end there*. And TM who told you none of those freshmen will have seasons comparable to Wall and Cousins? Barnes is a 20ppg scorer on the college level.


Wanna bet? :funny:

And please, don't respond with some ridiculous statement about be hating on UNC. That's not even close to what I am doing. 

I am absolutely hating on your continued inability to post without saying something stupid about UNC.

I know how this goes. Next post, you'll be shocked that somebody would have the nerve to call you a homer...


----------



## HB

Not yet. But soon. Need to watch this team and not just evaluate them on paper


----------



## TM

hopefully for you it works out better than this year's paper evaluation AND actual evaluation


----------



## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> Not yet. But soon. Need to watch this team and not just evaluate them on paper


But you already said they were going to end the year at #1. Maybe you should take your own advice?

For the record, whatever you are worth - you take UNC, I'll take the field.


----------



## HB

Here's what Telep had to say about Barnes being a 20ppg scorer



> Wouldn't need to. Would change the chemistry of the team. Would get buckets, force everyone to raise level of play.


----------



## bball2223

Barnes is not a guy who will get you 20 a game as a freshman. Roy has only had one guard average 20 a game for an entire season since hes been our coach. That player is Rashad McCants who was purely a scorer and does not have the all-around ability of Barnes.

If he can give us 10-15 a game and contribute in all other areas then I will be happy. Does he have the ability to average 20? Sure, but given his mindset as a player and recent history with guards averaging 20 for Roy it's not likely at all for next season.


----------



## Nimreitz

HB said:


> Here's what Telep had to say about Barnes being a 20ppg scorer


LOL, bull****. He won't even be the leader of the team.


----------



## HB

LOL you need to stop with the hate Nimreitz. He's not going to Wisconsin, we get it.


----------



## TM

HB said:


> Here's what Telep had to say about Barnes being a 20ppg scorer





> Wouldn't need to. Would change the chemistry of the team. Would get buckets, force everyone to raise level of play.


hahahaha. HB, at this point *YOU* would change the chemistry of that team. You know what's going to seriously change the chemistry of that team? 1) Getting rid of Davis and the lazy, baby upperclassmen. 2) Having a PG. 3) Having Harrison Barnes. 4) Having a SG that can actually shoot. 5) Having a coach that actually has talent to coach to motivate and not trying to actually coach up players.

You know I like Roy Williams, but now's the time to settle this once and for all. Roy Williams is a phenomenal recruiter, arguably the best in the game right now (to go along with Bill Self and John Calipari. We can discuss that another day.). Roy Williams is a phenomenal motivator. He can take talented players, even if they have egos, and mold them into a championship team. But he is NOT a guy that can coach up players. DO NOT MISUNDERSTAND ME - I am NOT saying he can't make players better, but he can not take a collective group of good players without a star(s) and coach them up enough to be competitive. He has to have elite talent to be successful. There is absolutely NO WAY that group that he had this year should have finished any worse than .500. That's why when the "Best coach in college basketball" threads pop up every 6months, I refuse to give him the top 1-2 spots. I believe I got tricked into it the last time we made a Top 10 coaches list because he was fresh off a national championship. However, from this point on, I will never again be tricked into doing such a thing again. And you better believe every time we start talking about the topic, I'm linking straight back to this post.


----------



## HB

I think you have a point. This team should have won at least 20 games, then again there were so many close games earlier on in the season. Team just gave up after a while. Thats reflective of their coach.


----------



## Nimreitz

HB said:


> LOL you need to stop with the hate Nimreitz. He's not going to Wisconsin, we get it.


He's going to be the emotional leader of the team? Not Henson or Zeller, but the freshman who is just as highly touted as those guys were who also have at least 2 years in the program?

I don't think I ever said anything about Wisconsin, but even if we did land a JP Tokoto he wouldn't be anywhere close to the leader of the team as a freshman.


----------



## TM

HB said:


> Team just gave up after a while. Thats reflective of their coach.



That's the part I didn't get. It was over once he sat there at that mic and started talking about how "He didn't think it could get any worse. really, how could it get any worse than this?" I'm thinking, "What are you doing?!?" How many times did we see him sitting there with either his arms folded or his head in his hands. He might as well have been doing this -> :whiteflag: on the sidelines. It's one thing that talk about you your team didn't perform well to motivate, but it seemed like he went way past that point. It was like _he_ had given up. I didn't understand that.


----------



## Blue

Lol, Roy Williams has lost his shine?


----------



## TM

after not having talent and getting exposed when he had to actually _coach_... yes, not so shiny


----------



## bball2223

I agree with your assessments about Roy TM, but he wanted me to tell you to "Kiss the rings, *****". 


Been thinking about this a little more and I have some more teams to watch for next year, if I had to throw out 10 here's who I would say to look out for:

Duke
Pitt
Villanova
Baylor
New Mexico
Butler
Michigan State
West Virginia
Ohio State
Memphis


----------



## Blue

TM said:


> after not having talent and getting exposed when he had to actually _coach_... yes, not so shiny


Hah, I was kind've just kidding TM... Just making fun of that Billy D thread someone made over the summer(was it you? :curse.

Honestly, I think UNC will be back next year. But now they know what it's like when you're top 6 rotation players all bail the same year, and top 3 asst coaches all get head caoching jobs... It's not easy to rebuild, but Roy is still a good coach.

Harrison Barnes & Kendall Marshall will definitely help alot nexxt year. Specifically Marshall, they had no PG this year...


----------



## coolpohle

I think people pay way too much attention to incoming classes on how good teams are going to be next year. Having quality freshmen is good and all, but experience goes a long way, and there are always highly touted guys like Henson and Gaddy that play like crap.


----------



## TM

Blue Magic said:


> Just making fun of that Billy D thread someone made over the summer(was it you? :curse.


Ha, yes I think it was, but I was only copying an article that one of the major news sources had written. Plus we needed something to talk about in the summer. Sorry bout that.

Again, no one's saying UNC isn't going to be good. But we've got some that are ready to give him the title 7 months before they start practice.


----------



## HB

Henson hasnt played like crap though


----------



## coolpohle

HB said:


> Henson hasnt played like crap though


So one of the what 5-10 best recruits averaging 5 and 4, shooting 48% (and 46% FT), 1.2 TO in 14 mins is good? My goodness.


----------



## HB

Henson hasn't played bad means he has played good?

He's struggled with his offense but his true worth has been on defense. Look if you wont take my word, take the words of the numerous pundits that have all said this kid is going to be a stud. Are you telling me folks like Dave Telep and Fran Franschilla dont know what they are talking about?


----------



## bball2223

He has had a few games where he has showed promise, but he has been really underwhelming overall. Nowhere near the ranking he received coming out of high school.


----------



## coolpohle

HB said:


> Henson hasn't played bad means he has played good?
> 
> He's struggled with his offense but his true worth has been on defense. Look if you wont take my word, take the words of the numerous pundits that have all said this kid is going to be a stud. Are you telling me folks like Dave Telep and Fran Franschilla dont know what they are talking about?


There's a big difference between a guy playing well right now, and a guy being a stud in the future.


----------



## HB

He is playing well right now, what are you talking about? The second half of his season was much better than the first half.


----------



## Nimreitz

HB said:


> Are you telling me folks like Dave Telep and Fran Franschilla dont know what they are talking about?


Uhhhhhh.... serious question?


----------



## coolpohle

HB said:


> He is playing well right now, what are you talking about? The second half of his season was much better than the first half.


Eh, you probably think Drew and McDonald are playing well, too.


----------



## HB

Nope Drew's decent, Mcdonald I dont care about. And yes Nimreitz thats a serious question. Telep and Franschilla are quite knowledgeable on prospects and the college game.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

coolpohle said:


> So one of the what 5-10 best recruits averaging 5 and 4, shooting 48% (and 46% FT), 1.2 TO in 14 mins is good? My goodness.


How many Top 5-10 recruits spend the 75% of the year getting less than 5 meaningful minutes per game at a position they obviously shouldn't be playing at? 

Once he received meaningful minutes at the proper position, his numbers have been fine.

I would compare to Favors, and then you would bring up Favors' poor situation, and then I would refer you to the first sentence of this very post. So can we skip that and just have you admit that bringing up Henson's season stats is misleading at best, flat out wrong at worst?


----------



## coolpohle

I think Favors has been fine. Not NBA #2 pick good, but he's played well, way better than Henson.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

His season averages are better than Hensons, but you already mentioned Henson's averages. 

Let's review the scenario - 

Henson has elite billing coming into college, and can't hardly get on the court for 75% of the season, and when he does he is playing out of position. Absolutely the first chance he gets to play his natural position for a significant amount of time, he starts producing in a very similar manner to what people were expecting at the beginning of the year. More rebounds and blocks per minute than Favors. 

And you want to use his season averages to discount what everybody knew he was capable of doing all along, and what he started doing the moment he got the chance to do it? 

Ridiculous.


----------



## TM

not our fault roy cant coach


----------



## SheriffKilla

Duke
Purdue (If Hummel is healthy and Johnson/Moore dont declare)
Kansas State (Everyone coming back besides Clemente)
Butler (If everyone comes back)
Michigan State (Everyone coming back besides Morgan)
Wisconsin (Leuer will be healthy and Bo Ryan always gets his teams to compete)
West Virginia (If Jones and Ebanks come back)
Baylor (Udoh will probably leave and Tweety graduates but Perry Jones is a top 10 recruit, if Udoh does stay they might be the favorite)
Xavier (Everyone coming back besides Love)
Villanova (Reynolds graduating but I expect these years FR to step up as Sophmores)

Of course Kansas, Kentucky, Memphis and UNC are gonna reload but they will be young.
Than there is Pittsburgh, BYU, Syracuse, New Mexico, Missouri, Florida State and Temple who should be pretty competitive as well.
Will be interesting to see how UConn, UCLA, Arizona and Indiana do next season.
And finally I really like Georgia with the Thompkins/Leslie duo but they need to get some players around them.


----------



## HKF

The Big East team to look out for is Cincinnati if Stephenson comes back ready to play. The problem is Mick Cronin is pathetic as a coach.


----------



## HB

Nvm


----------



## coolpohle

I'm surprised he wasn't let go. I don't think he's that bad of a coach...just that they need a chance of scenery there. They aren't a top 10 team with Stephenson next year, but they might be a top 25 team. Losing Vaughn hurts.

The real Big East team to look out for is St. John's. They should get a pretty good coach to go there soon, and as long as those guys stick around they should be decent.


----------



## dwilliams01

1. Duke
2. Georgetown (If Monroe comes back)
3. Michigan State
4. Kansas State
5. Purdue
6. Villanova
7. Butler
8. Baylor (If Udoh comes back)
9. North Carolina
10.West Virginia (A lot will depend if Ebanks comes back)


----------



## Jonathan Watters

Duke and Purdue at the top. I'm not a fan of saying that, but its true. Boilermakers perhaps the favorite if healthy, but Duke has less holes. 

Michigan State is going to be loaded/ridiculous as well.


----------



## SheriffKilla

Since Im not a fan of any team I choose different teams to root for every season here are 12 I will be rooting for next season.

1. Georgia.. love the Thompkins/Leslie duo
2. Duke... I hated them this year but the 3 guys that I dont like are all gonna be gone (Scheyer, Singler and Lance Thomas) plus Seth Curry and Kyrie Irving coming in. I, for the first time in my life, will be rooting for Duke
3. UNC... I always liked Roy and I want him to redeem himself plus with Henson, Zeller, Drew and company improving and Barnes, Bullock and Marshall coming back they should be fun to watch.
4. Memphis... Love that freshman class, and I wasnt a big Elliot Williams fan so if he is gone that will make me like the team more, because I do like Witherspoon, Sallie and Coleman.
5. Florida State... If Alabi comes back they could be even higher but even if he leaves I have always been a Hamilton fan (at least on the college level) and love their defensive intensity.
6. Pittsburgh... Should be right back in the mix of things next season, and Im a big Wanamaker and Gibbs fan.
7. Washington... Love Isaiah Thomas and I predict Gaddy brings it next season plus I have always like Romar
8. Wisconsin... dont usually like the Badgers but with Leuer returning this team is gonna be more offensive oriented and fun to watch than usual
9. Xavier... One of my favorites this season, gonna miss Jason Love but besides him the core is back intact
10. Kentucky... Maybe my favorite team this season but most of the core is gonna be gone if Bledsoe and/or Orton come back, they could be higher on this list and also depending on who commits to them because they have a chance at almost every single big uncomitted recruit.
11. California.. I have always been a big Mike Montgomery fan and I have been watching the guys in their recruiting class (Franklin, Crabbe) since their early teens. 
12. Northern Iowa... Didnt really root for them this season but these guys are really growing on me, plus Sideburns guy is coming back.

Of course as the season goes on and I found out more the freshmen and teams emerge/disappoint this list is gonna change but this is what I got right now.


----------



## dwilliams01

Singler is a junior


----------



## coolpohle

dwilliams01 said:


> Singler is a junior


And is likely turning pro.


----------



## Diable

Actually I'd say that Singler is likely not turning Pro. It really doesn't make a ton of sense for him. I'm more worried about Smith, who'd likely be picked in the mid to late first round while Singler would likely be an early second round pick.


----------



## dwilliams01

not really coolpohle


----------



## coolpohle

dwilliams01 said:


> not really coolpohle


Pretty sure fjd knows he's a junior buddy. Whether or not he will go is yet to be seen, but that is the assumption fjd is under.


----------



## Blue

I'm with you on Duke, but they wont good with Zoubek gone. He's the only reason they're so good, and they wont get those 2nd, 3rd, & 4th chance opportunities next year. 

Lol @ FSU... :laugh: Hamilton is just a terrible coach bro, can never maximize the talent he always has. Dont get your hopes up for this team.

I dont know too much about Cal, but they didn't look too great this year... I dont really see any 5* recruits coming in, so dont know where that's coming from... They looked horrible against DUke, imo.

Washington is better to watch than Cal. I actually like this team

UNC might be top 15-20 with guys like Harrison Barnes coming in?? Will be interesting to watch for sure.

UK will be good, they hijacked BK from florida and probably will still get 1 or 2 other AA's along with him, so you dont have worry about UK. They will also steal another florida transfer Eloy Vargas so will be straight. Unfortunately they have a **** coach, who doesn't know how to maximize the superior talent level he will always have. They will never win anything under coach Cal,imo.


----------



## coolpohle

Blue Magic said:


> I'm with you on Duke, but they wont good with Zoubek gone. He's the only reason they're so good, and they wont get those 2nd, 3rd, & 4th chance opportunities next year.
> 
> Lol @ FSU... :laugh: Hamilton is just a terrible coach bro, can never maximize the talent he always has. Dont get your hopes up for this team.
> 
> I dont know too much about Cal, but they didn't look too great this year... I dont really see any 5* recruits coming in, so dont know where that's coming from... They looked horrible against DUke, imo.
> 
> Washington is better to watch than Cal. I actually like this team
> 
> UNC might be top 15-20 with guys like Harrison Barnes coming in?? Will be interesting to watch for sure.
> 
> UK will be good, they hijacked BK from florida and probably will still get 1 or 2 other AA's along with him, so you dont have worry about UK. They will also steal another florida transfer Eloy Vargas so will be straight. Unfortunately they have a **** coach, who doesn't know how to maximize the superior talent level he will always have. They will never win anything under coach Cal,imo.


He said those are the teams he's rooting for, not the teams he thinks are going to be best.

Duke will not be lost with Zoubek. His loss hurts, sure - but the Plumlee brothers will fill in well.

As far as Leonard Hamilton goes, he's one of the better coaches in the game. He had one of the youngest teams in the country this year, with one, maybe two good players on it and they won 22 games. Remarkable. If you're commenting on Singleton, he sucks. Nobody could develop him. He's one of the dumbest players I've watched in the college game in some time.


----------



## Diable

Exactly how many minutes per game has Zoubek played for this team?


----------



## Blue

coolpohle said:


> He said those are the teams he's rooting for, not the teams he thinks are going to be best.
> 
> Duke will not be lost with Zoubek. His loss hurts, sure - but the Plumlee brothers will fill in well.
> 
> As far as Leonard Hamilton goes, he's one of the better coaches in the game. He had one of the youngest teams in the country this year, with one, maybe two good players on it and they won 22 games. Remarkable. If you're commenting on Singleton, he sucks. Nobody could develop him. He's one of the dumbest players I've watched in the college game in some time.


I dont think I said Duke would be 'lost', just that they wont be AS good. I forget to write 'AS' in my post, so my bad. Like I said tho, I agree they will be much MORE likable with Mason, Kyrie, and Seth Curry in the rotation and with alot LESS of Thomas, Singler, and Zoubek... I just dont think they will be as good next year w/o Zoubek, as he's one of the main reasons I think they're winning right now... Watch the games, and people simply cant keep him off the glass... Even if he doesn't get the rebound, teams are so focused on keeping him off the boards that other teammates of his get easy rebounds... and then Nolan or Sheyer hit that dagger 3 off of the rebound. Pretty much how every gone has gone. Rebounding is the main reason Duke has been so good in this tourney, and most teams just dont have the personnel to do anything about it. Mason is really good player, but he's simply not as big a body as Zoubek. He's more athletic and skilled, but imo easier to handle for smaller guys on the glass. So we'll see. 

As for Hamilton, you must not have followed FSU for too long... This is a team that generally is always stocked with good talent every year. They look like they have all the tools & the athletes to at least make the tourney, and they'll always win a big game or two early on to make you think they're good. But then they historically underachieve. I'll give him credit for them having a good season the last 2 years. But wasn't this FSU's 2nd tourney appearance in 12 years?? I mean he just generally underachieves with his teams. I've seen a team with Al Thornton, Jason Rich, Ian Swann, Toney Douglas not make the tourney... Right now they got Derwin Kitchen, Mike Snear, Alabi, Singleton, and they barely scrape in. Last year was there best year with Douglas/Rich, but I mean they should be in almost every year from how I see it. He's a great recruiter and knows how to get talent on campus, but I dont think I can call him one of the better coaches... Not until he can show some consistency, cause 2 tourneys in 8 years with the talent he's had is not that great.


----------



## coolpohle

Blue Magic said:


> Right now they got Derwin Kitchen, Mike Snear, Alabi, Singleton, and they barely scrape in.


Other than Alabi, all those other guys are underclassmen and they all suck. They haven't had much talent since 2007. Not sure what you're watching.


----------



## Blue

Snear was a McD's AA.. Derwin Kitchen would be a senior @ UF, but didnt qualify... I think he ended up at a reform school for a yr and then went to FSU, so he's def experianced for a junior and would be a starter at many BCS schools.... Alabi is a legit NBA prospect... Singleton is another good athlete in the frontcourt. 

Talent is not the problem imo, the problem is with managing the peices on their roster and bringing in the right pieces to make the team flow. They don't have a PG, but that's Hamilton's fault as he knew Toney Douglas was a senior and instead of recruiting a PG, he try's to turn Kitchens into a PG... No reason why shouldn't have had a real PG this yr, as Douglas was a senior, and they couldve gone further in the tourney if they did... And you say they haven't had much talent since '07, then how did they not make the tourney back then but did in '09 & '10?? That's kind of my point tho.. they had some good talent back then and Hamilton couldn't get them in the tourney... 2 times in 8 years in not enough for me to consider him a good coach, even if he did get this rag tag bunch into the tourney. Funny how they're still not even recruiting a PG for next year either... Im sorry, but just be prepared for disappointment, especially if Alabi is leaving... If they do good, then great, but there's been a few years where I was expecting them to be pretty good, and were an utter disappointment. Im just warning you.


----------



## coolpohle

If you can't recognize that someone like Michael Snaer was overrated, then I can't help you. Singleton is absolute garbarge. You're talking up guys that suck. It's foolish.

When did I say FSU is going to be good? You took fjd's list as if he was ranking the top 10 teams next year. Wake up. He wasn't. Hamilton is a fine coach. 

How did they make the tournament last year? I don't know. That's a testament as to what he's done. You're punishing him because he didn't take '08's crappy talent to the dance? My goodness.


----------



## Blue

coolpohle said:


> If you can't recognize that someone like Michael Snaer was overrated, then I can't help you. Singleton is absolute garbarge. You're talking up guys that suck. It's foolish.
> 
> When did I say FSU is going to be good? You took fjd's list as if he was ranking the top 10 teams next year. Wake up. He wasn't. Hamilton is a fine coach.
> 
> How did they make the tournament last year? I don't know. *That's a testament as to what he's done.* You're punishing him because he didn't take '08's crappy talent to the dance? My goodness.


Last years team had a real PG in Toney Douglas, that's how they made it. They were young, but well balanced. I'm not punishing him for '08, but in '07 he damn sure should've been in it. This year they could've been better if he recruited a PG to replace Douglas, but he didn't... He went to 1 tourney in 7 yrs tho, and 2 in 8... What has he done @ FSU? 

You act as if he's brought the program to prominence. The team has only been to the tourney twice in 12 years... It took the guy 7 yrs on the job to receive his 1st tourney bid... Most coaches dont get that much time... He said he was a fan of Hamilton's, so he knows what i'm talking about. You cant really deny that he has underachieved, but if he is beginning to turn the corner is yet to be seen... Hopefully he is turning that corner tho.


----------



## SheriffKilla

Yeah, to clarify that list is just teams where I like the players/style of play/coaching not how good they are

Singleton doesnt suck, he is a very good defender and I beleive Snaer is going to get better, they are going to the tournament next season IMO
They arent a great offensive team but even if Alabi is gone they will be a very good defensive team and have enough talent to make the tournament


----------



## Drewbs

I'm not getting this whole Roy can't coach thing. Roy absolutely can coach. He can't coach up players? He has had several good teams where they were not stacked with talent. His 05-06 squad fared very well after a mass exodus of his team's top talent to the NBA. Even if it's not the case, he can coach top talent and recruit top talent, which leads to success for our program.

Still, this year was a fluke, a lot went wrong, some of it Roy's doing, some of it not. I do not think that Roy handled himself particularly well this season, but he's still a great coach.

That being said, we are going to be very good next year. Top 10 most likely, but not top 5 unless Ed Davis comes back (or we make huge strides during the season), I did not think we were going to be particularly good this season and had absolutely no idea why we were ranked so high pre-season. John Henson came in with enormous potential but anyone with eyes could see that it was going to take him at least one season to develop into a truly productive player at the college level. No one even had any clue what the seniors on the team could even do leading the team, and we had clear and blatant point guard issues. The only surprise for me was that Will Graves could actually ball, and I was mildly surprised when we started off as hot as we did. But next year we have Barnes, who is as ready to produce on the college level as any HS player that I've seen (barring freaks like Lebron or Dwight Howard), as well as a great scoring guard in Bullock and a heady pg in Kendall Marshall (though I'm not really sure how big an impact Marshall will make off the bat). Plus, Henson should be much better (guy needs to eat a burger and work on his offensive game), and Larry Drew should be getting better as well.


----------



## coolpohle

Singleton sucks. If you don't think so, go watch him play. Sweet, he can play defense. So can half of the guys in college basketball.


----------



## HB

> hat being said, we are going to be very good next year. Top 10 most likely, but not top 5 unless Ed Davis comes back (or we make huge strides during the season), I did not think we were going to be particularly good this season and had absolutely no idea why we were ranked so high pre-season


The Heels are definitely top 5 next year


----------



## coolpohle

Blue Magic said:


> Last years team had a real PG in Toney Douglas, that's how they made it. They were young, but well balanced. I'm not punishing him for '08, but in '07 he damn sure should've been in it. This year they could've been better if he recruited a PG to replace Douglas, but he didn't... He went to 1 tourney in 7 yrs tho, and 2 in 8... What has he done @ FSU?
> 
> You act as if he's brought the program to prominence. The team has only been to the tourney twice in 12 years... It took the guy 7 yrs on the job to receive his 1st tourney bid... Most coaches dont get that much time... He said he was a fan of Hamilton's, so he knows what i'm talking about. You cant really deny that he has underachieved, but if he is beginning to turn the corner is yet to be seen... Hopefully he is turning that corner tho.


You don't have to bring your program to prominence to be to a good coach. 

One good player does not make you a tournament team. Pretty much every team, even many of the bottom feeders have one good player. Heck, even Tennessee-Martin had a player better than Florida St. last season. Florida St. was not well balanced last year. They were horrific offensively. They had one good player. They made the tournament because they have a coach that can coach defense. Not a ton of teams can say that.


----------



## coolpohle

Here are my early rankings for next year...I pretty much assumed that anyone who might enter the draft will go.

1. Ohio St. - Crazy to think how good this team will be even without Turner. They return their other four starters and bring in two prized recruits in Thomas and Sullinger.
2. Michigan St. - Even if Summers declares, they still bring back three starters and their entire bench. Payne can make an immediate impact as well.
3. Pittsburgh - This team will be upperclassmen heavy next year with Gibbs and Wannamaker leading the way. They beat some heavyweights this season.
4. Illinois - Don't sleep on this team. They are going to be really good next year with four senior starters and the freshman Richmond should take some pressure off of McCamey.
5. Georgetown - This group took some nice strides this season, and even if Monroe goes, they return everyone else. No reason to think they can't be a top five team.
6. Villanova - No Reynolds, but the bench played pretty well this season and will be able to step up. They will have a nice trio of seniors as well.
7. Florida - Time for the Gators to be relevant again. Four starters back from a tourney team this season, with Patric Young coming in.
8. Tennessee - People might sleep on them with three senior starters graduating, but Pearl has done a good job with the recruiting class and Hopson will be back.
9. Washington - Only Pondexter figures to be gone, and you have to think Gaddy will step up his play. A lot of experience and talent on this squad.
10. Virginia Tech - If Delaney takes his name out they could be a top five team. They brought in Chaney from Florida and have a lot of seniors.


----------



## Blue

^Chaneys gonna be a damn good player. Hated to see him go, but i think he can be All-ACC if he gets the minutes...


----------



## Blue

coolpohle said:


> You don't have to bring your program to prominence to be to a good coach.
> 
> One good player does not make you a tournament team. Pretty much every team, even many of the bottom feeders have one good player. Heck, even Tennessee-Martin had a player better than Florida St. last season. Florida St. was not well balanced last year. They were horrific offensively. They had one good player. They made the tournament because they have a coach that can coach defense. Not a ton of teams can say that.


So in his first 6yrs w/o a tourney appearance you were impressed? You do realize that most coaches dont even get that kind of time, right? Im not too impressed. If your there long enough, you should make it a few times. He is a very good recruiter, but an average coach to me. And FSU has more than one good player, they just dont have any great players... Last year they had one great player(Douglas), and in '07 they had one great player(Thornton), but they're usually surrounded with several good experianced players(ie. Rich, Swann, Douglas in '07 or Kitchens, Echefu, Alabi last year). This year it was just abunch of good players w/ no great player, but just image if they had a better ball-handler at PG to run offense instead of Kitchens... They would be even better... I've just never been too impressed with what Hamilton has done up there, aside from recruiting.


----------



## coolpohle

Blue Magic said:


> So in his first 6yrs w/o a tourney appearance you were impressed? You do realize that most coaches dont even get that kind of time, right? Im not too impressed. If your there long enough, you should make it a few times. He is a very good recruiter, but an average coach to me. And FSU has more than one good player, they just dont have any great players... Last year they had one great player(Douglas), and in '07 they had one great player(Thornton), but they're usually surrounded with several good experianced players(ie. Rich, Swann, Douglas in '07 or Kitchens, Echefu, Alabi last year). This year it was just abunch of good players w/ no great player, but just image if they had a better ball-handler at PG to run offense instead of Kitchens... They would be even better... I've just never been too impressed with what Hamilton has done up there, aside from recruiting.


The problem is that your expectations are way too high and that you think a lot of players they've had are way better than they actually are/were.


----------



## Blue

^I think in 10yrs, a program like FSU should at least make the tourney in 5 of them... To only make the tourney 1 time in the last decade is underachieving imo. 5 or more and I would consider him good, 4 or less and I consider him pretty average. I've seen FSU give some good Florida teams all they could handle... Particularly, the '07 FSU team actually beat '07 Florida title team, but the fact that they couldn't muster up the consistency even make the tourney that year was a disappointment. 

That was a really good team with Thornton & Douglas(who was a 3rd yr soph), and with guys like Rich and Swann also on the team... Maybe i'm putting too much weight on that one particular season for them, but I really liked that team and I gave up on Hamilton after that... Like I said tho, if Hamiltons can turn the corner this decade(which it looks like he may be doing), then that's great... But I guess I've just been burned too many times to get excited about a FSU team.. If they start to do good, then it will just be a good surprise.. It will definitely help UF's strength of schedule every year, so hopefully they can do it...

Btw, i'm working on my list right now so i'll post it shortly.


----------



## coolpohle

Yeah, they probably underachieved a bit in '07, but I'm not going to base it solely off of one year.


----------



## rocketeer

coolpohle said:


> Here are my early rankings for next year...I pretty much assumed that anyone who might enter the draft will go.
> 
> 1. Ohio St. - Crazy to think how good this team will be even without Turner. They return their other four starters and bring in two prized recruits in Thomas and Sullinger.
> 2. Michigan St. - Even if Summers declares, they still bring back three starters and their entire bench. Payne can make an immediate impact as well.
> 3. Pittsburgh - This team will be upperclassmen heavy next year with Gibbs and Wannamaker leading the way. They beat some heavyweights this season.
> 4. Illinois - Don't sleep on this team. They are going to be really good next year with four senior starters and the freshman Richmond should take some pressure off of McCamey.
> 5. Georgetown - This group took some nice strides this season, and even if Monroe goes, they return everyone else. No reason to think they can't be a top five team.
> 6. Villanova - No Reynolds, but the bench played pretty well this season and will be able to step up. They will have a nice trio of seniors as well.
> 7. Florida - Time for the Gators to be relevant again. Four starters back from a tourney team this season, with Patric Young coming in.
> 8. Tennessee - People might sleep on them with three senior starters graduating, but Pearl has done a good job with the recruiting class and Hopson will be back.
> 9. Washington - Only Pondexter figures to be gone, and you have to think Gaddy will step up his play. A lot of experience and talent on this squad.
> 10. Virginia Tech - If Delaney takes his name out they could be a top five team. They brought in Chaney from Florida and have a lot of seniors.


no duke, butler, k state, syracuse, purdue?


----------



## coolpohle

All those teams were close on my list. If Singler declares, that means they lose four of five starters which is why I didn't rank them.

Kansas St. doesn't have anyone notable coming in, and Clemente is a big loss. Their bench wasn't very good this year so I'm not seeing them stepping up next year.

Syracuse loses their two best players as well as Onuaku. They'll still be good, but that's a lot to lose to be a top ten team.

I talked about Purude before. They will be good, but their bench was awful this year and those guys will get more time that they aren't ready for next year. Kraemer and Grant are going to be bigger losses than people realize. They will have three very good players next year, but then a bunch of crappy players after that.


----------



## SheriffKilla

I think KState has to be up there, Clemente is gonna be a big loss but McGruder and Irving are pretty good players I think they are gonna step up enough to fill in for DC

What do you guys think of Kentucky? if they get Knight, Leslie and maybe Terrence Jones to go with Poole and Kanter this is gonna be another amazing freshmen ensemble


----------



## coolpohle

In my mind, ranking Kansas St. in the top 10 comes down to, will they be as good as this year or worse? In my opinion, it's worse. Thus, they aren't a top 10 team. They are certainly on the cusp, though.

Kentucky is going to have to get two of those guys to be relevant next year, assuming the five guys expected to go pro do in fact go.


----------



## Blue

*1. Michigan State*
Only lose Raymar Morgan from a Final Four team, and bringing in a pretty stout recruiting class. Big Ten should be really tough next year, but Izzo knows how to coach 'em up AND he will have a very experienced squad to go along with all the fresh talent, so I got State @ #1.

*2. Ohio State*
Evan Turner’s definitely gone, but I think every other key player is returning... And the recruiting class Thad Matta is bringing in should be criminal... I think OSU should maybe be #1, but after losing the such a great player like Turner it's hard to know how they'll bounce back. On paper, perhaps the most talented team.

*3. Duke*
Starters Brian Zoubek, Jon Scheyer and Lance Thomas will be gone, thank goodness. But, Kyrie Irving is the best prospect Mike Krzyzewski’s had in the last decade imo. Seth Curry will also be eligible, and can fill it up. Mason Plumlee is ready for a prominent role. I dont think they'll be as balanced next season, but look out for the Dukies! In respect to the title team, i'll give them a top 3 bid.

*4. Butler*
Losing Veasley hurts, but if Gordon Hayward and Shelvin Mack return, the Bulldogs still have a roster capable of reaching the Final Four. Love the lockdown D.

*5. Purdue*
Last chance for Robbie Hummel, E’Twaun Moore and JaJuan Johnson to get to the Final Four. They lose a cpl key guards, but this team won the Big 10 this season and their top 3 scorers return. If everyone stays healthy, they can be dangerous.

*6. Virginia Tech*
If Malcolm Delaney stays, VaTech will challenge Duke for an ACC title. Florida transfer Allan Chaney will give a nice boost to their front court.

*7. Georgetown*
If Greg Monroe passes on the NBA like he say's, the Hoyas are really good. But assuming he jumps for the lottery money, Top 20 might be a reach. We'll see.

*8. Pitt*
They were a pretty nice surprise last season. Love Ashton Gibbs, and with all the guys most likely returning I think they’re good enough to maybe win the Big East. 

*9. Memphis*
Leap of faith. The Tigers have the nation’s top recruiting class and have their top 4 scorers coming back. They should dominate CUSA now with UTEP losing their coach and top player(Derrick Character)

*10. Baylor*
Gonna miss Tweety. But they still have LaceDarius Dunn to go along with a scary athletic frontcourt that includes Ekpe Udoh, Quincy Acy, and incoming All-American Perry Jones.

*11. Florida*
Kenny Boynton is ready to shine. He needs a backcourt partner bigger than 5'8 who can play D and stop penetration, but everything else is in place. If Gators can find a quality point man before season, they could easily be SEC’s top team. Returning all 5 starters and bringing in a big man like Patric Young, should improve Florida's defense & consistency a great deal. But this pick is pending a PG. 

*12. Syracuse*
Can Fab Melo and Dion Waiters replace Onuaku and Andy Rautins? I think so. Wes Johnson leaving will sting abit, though.

*13. North Carolina*
Another stellar recruiting class with Harrison Barnes, Reggie Bullock, Kendall Marshall is amazing. But we'll have to just wait and see how ready all that young talent is to play.


*14. KState*
Clemente is gone, but Pullen and that frontcourt coming back should be a good team.

*15. Illinois*
All five starters return with a Top 10 recruiting class. Big 10 will be loaded.


----------



## Blue

fjkdsi said:


> I think KState has to be up there, Clemente is gonna be a big loss but McGruder and Irving are pretty good players I think they are gonna step up enough to fill in for DC
> 
> *What do you guys think of Kentucky? if they get Knight, Leslie and maybe Terrence Jones to go with Poole and Kanter this is gonna be another amazing freshmen ensemble*


I dont think they'll get both Jones AND Leslie, but just one of those guys is still good. They'll also get Eloy Vargas from JUCO. They'll be a talented team, but it's hard to know with them bringing in soo many freshman. Poole is not that good, Kanter is a mystery, Knight is nice and Leslie is nice, but is that enough?? I just dont see how you can rely on so many freshman...


----------



## SheriffKilla

There are 10 high level prospects still uncommited 
Brandon Knight, Josh Selby, Cory Joseph, Terrence Jones, CJ Leslie, Doron Lamb, Trey Ziegler, Luke Cothron, Terrence Ross, Ray McCallum

Kentucky is still in the run for 6 of them( Knight, Selby, T.Jones, Leslie, Lamb, and Ross)
UConn and Kansas are still in the run for 4 and Arizona and UCLA are still in the run for 3. Florida also could possibily could get 3 but it seems they have taken themselves out of the Knight recruitment so just 2 one of which Ray McCallum who is, from everything I read/heard, is leaning toward Detroit (his pops the coach)

Anyway this is how I think it goes:
Knight goes to Kentucky to try to follow Wall and Rose
Selby than goes to Kansas
Joseph than goes UConn
T.Jones, Leslie go to Kentucky
T. Ross will go to Kentucky but Im not sure about their scholarship situation if they dont have enough, than he will probably go to Kansas
Lamb goes to WVU
Ziegler goes to Michigan State
Cothron goes to Alabama
McCallum goes to Detroit
This is mostly speculation based on style of play that fits teams/coaches on the players lists, so i could be very wrong.
Knight, Leslie, McCallum and Cothron are the 4 Im pretty set on going to those schools the others could all end up anywhere. However, I doubt any combo of Joseph, Selby and Knight end up at the same school.


----------



## coolpohle

Blue Magic said:


> *1. Michigan State*
> Only lose Raymar Morgan from a Final Four team, and bringing in a pretty stout recruiting class. Big Ten should be really tough next year, but Izzo knows how to coach 'em up AND he will have a very experienced squad to go along with all the fresh talent, so I got State @ #1.


Decent possibility that Summers enters the draft.


----------



## coolpohle

Blue Magic said:


> *9. Memphis*
> Leap of faith. The Tigers have the nation’s top recruiting class and have their top 4 scorers coming back. They should dominate CUSA now with UTEP losing their coach and top player(Derrick Character)


Assuming Williams does enter the draft, UTEP is the clear favorite to win the CUSA once again. Getting Floyd is an upgrade, and Caracter was their 3rd best player and is the only one not returning for the Miners next season. I think Memphis will be one of the most overhyped teams heading into next season if Elliot does leave.


----------



## coolpohle

Blue Magic said:


> *10. Baylor*
> Gonna miss Tweety. But they still have LaceDarius Dunn to go along with a scary athletic frontcourt that includes Ekpe Udoh, Quincy Acy, and incoming All-American Perry Jones.


Udoh is most certainly gone and there's a chance Dunn will be, too.


----------



## HB

> 13. North Carolina
> Another stellar recruiting class with Harrison Barnes, Reggie Bullock, Kendall Marshall is amazing. But we'll have to just wait and see how ready all that young talent is to play.


Young talent didn't stop UK from going deep in the tourney. We are talking about some serious wing fire power, maybe the best in the nation. This team is final four material.


----------



## Blue

^Some people thought that last year too, so I think we'll have to just wait.


----------



## coolpohle

HB said:


> Young talent didn't stop UK from going deep in the tourney. We are talking about some serious wing fire power, maybe the best in the nation. This team is final four material.


Didn't you say that last year, too? North Carolina will be good, but when you lose three starters from a team that 5-11 in the ACC and then expect them to make the final four, you're setting your sights way too high. Could they get there? Absolutely. But a lot will have to go right.


----------



## HB

I also said last year and I repeated that the team wouldnt win a championship, and constantly stressed how our point guard situation would be a problem. Unless you have never seen Harrison Barnes or Reggie Bullock play, there's no way they arent a top 5-10 team. You add a legit point guard like Marshall to the mix and I really dont see why they arent one of the better teams in college ball next year. Notice I didnt mention an improved Henson, Drew and co.


----------



## coolpohle

The Big Ten may be the best conference next season. Ohio St., Michigan St., Illinois, and Purdue are all going to be very good. Wisconsin should be pretty good, and Minnesota should be decent.


----------



## coolpohle

HB said:


> I also said last year and I repeated that the team wouldnt win a championship, and constantly stressed how our point guard situation would be a problem. Unless you have never seen Harrison Barnes or Reggie Bullock play, there's no way they arent a top 5-10 team. You add a legit point guard like Marshall to the mix and I really dont see why they arent one of the better teams in college ball next year. Notice I didnt mention an improved Henson, Drew and co.


Wouldn't win a championship? They didn't even win six games in the ACC! 

As good as those guys may be, Kentucky didn't make the Final Four with all that young talent this year. Sometimes good, smart seniors are better than a freshman one and done. You look at guys like Gaddy, Stephenson, Bradley, etc. these were some of the highest rated guys last year but they were wildly inconsistent (or just consistently bad in Gaddy's case). 

This UNC team will be good, but they are still very young and in my eyes a player away from being a legitimate championship contender next season. You just don't go from five ACC wins, and losing three starters to a Final Four team.


----------



## HB

> Sources close to Ed Davis are now reporting a real possibility that he may forgo the NBA Draft and return for his junior year.


Badabing Badaboom!


----------



## Nimreitz

Butler is my preseason #1.


----------



## coolpohle

HB said:


> Badabing Badaboom!


Definitely top 10 with him.


----------



## coolpohle

Nimreitz said:


> Butler is my preseason #1.


They will be really good if Hayward does come back. The problem I'm seeing with them is that they weren't very deep this year, and with Veasley and Jukes gone, they are going to be really thin off the bench. They are going to be a player or two short.


----------



## croco

coolpohle said:


> All those teams were close on my list. If Singler declares, that means they lose four of five starters which is why I didn't rank them.
> 
> Kansas St. doesn't have anyone notable coming in, and Clemente is a big loss. Their bench wasn't very good this year so I'm not seeing them stepping up next year.
> 
> Syracuse loses their two best players as well as Onuaku. They'll still be good, but that's a lot to lose to be a top ten team.
> 
> I talked about Purude before. They will be good, but their bench was awful this year and those guys will get more time that they aren't ready for next year. Kraemer and Grant are going to be bigger losses than people realize. They will have three very good players next year, but then a bunch of crappy players after that.


You could also approach it differently and say that there is a decent chance Purdue will get more productivity from the bench because there is no way they can possibly get less. They have a decent class coming in which should also help a little bit. And there could also be a similar effect to what Duke has gone through after losing Gerald Henderson, others improved and stepped up and they were actually a much better team this season.

I also think that UNC will be much better just by virtue of being another year removed from the championship, adding Harrison Barnes (not selling short Bullock and Marshall, but he is going to be special) and new leaders emerging with the departures of Ginyard and Thompson. Whether that will be enough to return to the Final Four is too early to tell though.


----------



## coolpohle

croco said:


> You could also approach it differently and say that there is a decent chance Purdue will get more productivity from the bench because there is no way they can possibly get less. They have a decent class coming in which should also help a little bit. And there could also be a similar effect to what Duke has gone through after losing Gerald Henderson, others improved and stepped up and they were actually a much better team this season.
> 
> I also think that UNC will be much better just by virtue of being another year removed from the championship, adding Harrison Barnes (not selling short Bullock and Marshall, but he is going to be special) and new leaders emerging with the departures of Ginyard and Thompson. Whether that will be enough to return to the Final Four is too early to tell though.


UNC depends on Davis. If he comes back they are very good. If not, they will be good but I don't see them being great.

Purdue has had very bad recruiting classes in 2008 and 2009 which is catching up to them right now. I believe they have JaJuan's brother coming in this year, but he's not going to be that good right away. After Hummel went out, it was so clear how bad those guys really are. They aren't going to get much better. They just don't have the talent.


----------



## croco

coolpohle said:


> They will be really good if Hayward does come back. The problem I'm seeing with them is that they weren't very deep this year, and with Veasley and Jukes gone, they are going to be really thin off the bench. They are going to be a player or two short.


If their approach and attitude is going to continue to be the same, others will take on bigger roles and depth won't be a problem. I mean Jukes barely played 10 minutes a game and it seems like they have plenty of leadership from other players to overcome that.


----------



## coolpohle

croco said:


> If their approach and attitude is going to continue to be the same, others will take on bigger roles and depth won't be a problem. I mean Jukes barely played 10 minutes a game and it seems like they have plenty of leadership from other players to overcome that.


So who exactly is going to take on these bigger roles? If the plan is to have guys like Hahn and Butcher play 30 minutes a game they will be in some trouble.


----------



## croco

coolpohle said:


> So who exactly is going to take on these bigger roles? If the plan is to have guys like Hahn and Butcher play 30 minutes a game they will be in some trouble.


I don't have a crystal ball, but even Veasley was arguably only the fifth best player on the team this season. There is no reason to believe that Hayward, Mack, Nored or Howard will regress, in fact the entire team has steadily improved and I would venture to say that this process is going to continue.


----------



## coolpohle

croco said:


> I don't have a crystal ball, but even Veasley was arguably only the fifth best player on the team this season. There is no reason to believe that Hayward, Mack, Nored or Howard will regress, in fact the entire team has steadily improved and I would venture to say that this process is going to continue.


Which means they will have no bench next season.


----------



## TM

Was up in Indiana for the weekend and heard someone asked Hayward about leaving early. He said it'd definitely be something he'd look into.

I hope he comes back. I'm rooting for Butler next year!


----------



## Drewbs

Word around the town is that Ed Davis is probably going to stay another year. Dunno how true these rumors are...


----------



## coolpohle

Drewbs said:


> Word around the town is that Ed Davis is probably going to stay another year. Dunno how true these rumors are...


I've heard 50/50, and I've heard he's absolutely leaving. I myself would not at all be surprised if he stayed. Chance to get another championship while improving and showing that you can stay healthy all season.

Maybe a top 5 pick next year with a great season? He won't be this year.


----------



## Drewbs

whether he stays or goes, he absolutely needs to add some weight and work on his offense this year. he was just not consistently getting position down low this season, and when he did (and the guards actually got him the ball) he was pretty dependable scoring. If he comes back next year, it's going to be a very exciting team to watch. As far as raw talent goes, probably on par with our championship team.


----------



## rocketeer

coolpohle said:


> So who exactly is going to take on these bigger roles? If the plan is to have guys like Hahn and Butcher play 30 minutes a game they will be in some trouble.


why would they plan on playing those guys 30 minutes a game?

butler is replacing one guy who played 30 minutes a game and one guy who played 10 a game. it seems likely that guys like hahn and vanzant would be able play 5-10 minutes more per game each and they also have khyle marshall coming in who is the highest rated recruit they've had since matt howard.

butler is a top 10 team next year as long as hayward returns.


----------



## SheriffKilla

If Hayward returns I dont see how they arent a top 5 team, They were built to make a run next season, of course they did that a year early but as long as Gordon as back they should be able to go to another Elite 8 and probably Final 4


----------



## coolpohle

rocketeer said:


> why would they plan on playing those guys 30 minutes a game?
> 
> butler is replacing one guy who played 30 minutes a game and one guy who played 10 a game. it seems likely that guys like hahn and vanzant would be able play 5-10 minutes more per game each and they also have khyle marshall coming in who is the highest rated recruit they've had since matt howard.
> 
> butler is a top 10 team next year as long as hayward returns.


Yeah, if Hayward comes back they very well could be - but I don't see them being a top five like many are drooling over - and there is no guarantee Hayward comes back.

If you're relying on a 3* recruit to come in and play significant minutes on this team, that's worrysome for me.


----------



## nothinbutnets

*Top 5 teams in 2011*

I guess its never to early to make you predictions for next year.. I was reading an article about it and thought it would be a good discussion to have here. Heres the article: http://blogs.msg.com/gameon/2010/04/06/on-the-hardwood-early-top-five-for-2011/

I don't fully agree with it tho I'm going to say that its going to be Villanova, Butler , Georgetown , Michigan State and Duke but not in that particular order. What do you guys think?


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## coolpohle

*Re: Top 5 teams in 2011*

We have a thread on this already, but this is my list:

1. Ohio St.
2. Michigan St.
3. Pittsburgh
4. Illinois
5. Georgetown


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## rocketeer

coolpohle said:


> Yeah, if Hayward comes back they very well could be - but I don't see them being a top five like many are drooling over - and there is no guarantee Hayward comes back.
> 
> If you're relying on a 3* recruit to come in and play significant minutes on this team, that's worrysome for me.


depends on what you mean by significant minutes. is 10-15 a game significant? that's all butler really needs someone who didn't really contribute last year to step up and provide for them.


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## SheriffKilla

Granted Butler has done a great job finding diamonds in the rough in the past few years (and in general), add to that the fact that all those recruiting websites overrate Big 6 schools recruits and underrate all others, all signs point to Marshall turning out a pretty good catch


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## Jonathan Watters

coolpohle said:


> I talked about Purude before. They will be good, but their bench was awful this year and those guys will get more time that they aren't ready for next year. Kraemer and Grant are going to be bigger losses than people realize. They will have three very good players next year, but then a bunch of crappy players after that.


They've got a very good recruiting class coming in, and they made it to the Sweet 16 this year without Hummel and no bench. The guys you mention were mostly defense oriented, and somewhere on his bench he is going to find defensive roleplayers to replace them. I have zero doubt in Painter's ability to develop his players, especially on the team level. 

If healthy, there's no way Purdue isn't a Top 10 team.


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## Jonathan Watters

rocketeer said:


> depends on what you mean by significant minutes. is 10-15 a game significant? that's all butler really needs someone who didn't really contribute last year to step up and provide for them.


They made the national championship game with a 6'3 non-shooter playing major minutes at PF. Cool really thinks Butler isn't a top 10 team because a freshman is going to play a few minutes? Ridiculous...


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## Jonathan Watters

And yet, Ohio St is somehow going to overcome the loss of absolutely the only reason they were any good...without breaking a sweat. They will be relying on freshmen for go-to scoring and primary ballhandling duties. Wheeeee!!!!


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## HB

Lucas is going back to State, their guard rotation is looking pretty good. State should be better next year.


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## bball2223

Appling and Payne are impact freshman. State is a top 5 team next year, especially if Summers returns.


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## Nimreitz

coolpohle said:


> Yeah, if Hayward comes back they very well could be - but I don't see them being a top five like many are drooling over - and there is no guarantee Hayward comes back.
> 
> If you're relying on a 3* recruit to come in and play significant minutes on this team, that's worrysome for me.


Dude, they really aren't replacing anyone that significant and you know they have guys on the bench who have just been biding their time learning the system waiting for their opportunity to contribute. They were a top 5 team THIS YEAR and next year they won't have significant changes to their lineup or rotation and everyone on the team will have another year of experience. And this is Butler, guys are going to improve; laziness is clearly not accepted out there.


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## coolpohle

They will be good, no question about it. But if Hayward does indeed keep his name in the draft, you're looking at a starting lineup next year of:

Ronald Nored - great defender, but cannot be counted on for offense.
Zach Hahn - great if he gets an open 3, but that's all he can do and he can't defend that well.
Shawn Vanzant - yikes
Shelvin Mack - beast
Matt Howard - beast

Bench:

Garret Butcher and that's it. My goodness.

If that's a top five team, college basketball is going to be really ugly next year.


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## rocketeer

coolpohle said:


> They will be good, no question about it. But if Hayward does indeed keep his name in the draft, you're looking at a starting lineup next year of:
> 
> Ronald Nored - great defender, but cannot be counted on for offense.
> Zach Hahn - great if he gets an open 3, but that's all he can do and he can't defend that well.
> Shawn Vanzant - yikes
> Shelvin Mack - beast
> Matt Howard - beast
> 
> Bench:
> 
> Garret Butcher and that's it. My goodness.
> 
> If that's a top five team, college basketball is going to be really ugly next year.


because people have been calling them a top 5 team if hayward leaves?


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## Jonathan Watters

rocketeer said:


> because people have been calling them a top 5 team if hayward leaves?


Pretty funny how a person will start responding to a different argument before admitting theirs was stupid to begin with.


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## bball2223

Michigan State is a top 2 team with the news of Lucas and Summers returning. This is a team that can go 8+ deep with Lucas, Summers, Allen, Roe, Green, Lucious, Nix, Payne, Appling and Byrd. They should have the best backcourt in college ball and if Payne, Roe and Nix can all get on the same page with Green they may have the best team in the country next year.


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## dwilliams01

coolpohle said:


> All those teams were close on my list. If Singler declares, that means they lose four of five starters which is why I didn't rank them.
> 
> Kansas St. doesn't have anyone notable coming in, and Clemente is a big loss. Their bench wasn't very good this year so I'm not seeing them stepping up next year.
> 
> Syracuse loses their two best players as well as Onuaku. They'll still be good, but that's a lot to lose to be a top ten team.
> 
> I talked about Purude before. They will be good, but their bench was awful this year and those guys will get more time that they aren't ready for next year. Kraemer and Grant are going to be bigger losses than people realize. They will have three very good players next year, but then a bunch of crappy players after that.


Kansas State does lose Clemente but they bring back everybody else from an Elite 8 run. They'll be at least top 10 and the Big 12 favorite.

Purdue brings back 4 starters. Not much of a bench, true. But they still got to the Sweet 16 without their best player. They should be top 5 and arguably the best.


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## coolpohle

Not losing bench players is good and all, but when all those guys suck and have to get more PT next year, it's not really a good thing.

Purdue only brings back three starters, not four, and that's assuming Johnson and Moore pull their name out.


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## SheriffKilla

coolpohle said:


> Not losing bench players is good and all, but when all those guys suck and have to get more PT next year, it's not really a good thing.
> 
> Purdue only brings back three starters, not four, and that's assuming Johnson and Moore pull their name out.


If you are talking about KState bench, McGruder already proved to be a very capable scorer, Wally Judge has great potential and Irving is a pretty underrated player too. You probably cant expect Irving to play big minutes at PG or anything but Pullen played alot of PG his first 2 seasons and I think he can go back to that especially now that he is a SR and has learned all the intricities of the college game. KState will be as good and maybe even better than last season


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## coolpohle

Having one good bench player doesn't mean the bench is good.


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## HB

State isnt a top 2 team, college ball as a whole is more talented next year


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## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> State isnt a top 2 team, college ball as a whole is more talented next year


Way too many early entries for this to be the case.


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## TM

Kyle Singler is coming back next year


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## bball2223

HB said:


> State isnt a top 2 team, college ball as a whole is more talented next year


Who is then? The only team I see that may be better on paper right now is Duke. This will be Izzo's deepest and most talented team top to bottom since the Flintstone's were in East Lansing. Plus Izzo is a tournament coach. They just made the final four without their best player, I mean Izzo is going to have this team playing it's best ball by the start of the tournament. I would bet the house they make the final four at the very least next year, this is going to be a damn good team.


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## Diable

On to Houston Baby!


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## HB

Singler is returning to Duke, damn! They are definitely number 1 next year


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## SheriffKilla

Interesting decision, if they dont win again he might hurt his stock.


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## Diable

Next year's draft likely won't be as deep because of all the early entries this year and the uncertainty of the NBA labor situation in the 2011 offseason. Singler could move all the way from a second rounder to a late lottery pick. That's why I've always believed would be returning all along. He simply isn't guaranteed anything this year and next year he's going to have much less competition for slots in the first round. This year everyone is coming out because of the possible lockout in 2011. Next year noone (or only those assured of being lottery picks most likely) will be overly eager to jump because of that uncertainty.

If you guys think I'm excited you should check out the DBR forums. Those guys are talking about blowing out everyone on the schedule. I don't think it will happen, but they might end up redshirting someone next year. Duke will probably have ten or eleven guys who are capable of contributing next year, probably a bit too many on the perimeter.


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## coolpohle

Singler was going to be a 1st round pick this year, no question about it in my mind.


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## HB

I think UNC has more talent, Scheyer's loss shouldn't be understated, but man Seth Curry is coming in and their 3pt shooting will be deadly

And yes I brought up UNC because Duke is our mortal enemy


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## rebelsun

I can't say I like this move on Singler's part. This is an athletically-limited (i.e. limited potential) junior that just won tourney MVP. I'm not sure his stock has anywhere to go but down. He'll still be the #1 option, but the team won't be as successful. This guarantees Duke a top-2 preseason ranking, though.

Ed Davis going pro essentially shot UNC's chances at any title run next year. They are effectively butter-soft in the post right now. All that's left is Zeller, Henson, and the Wears. Henson will be good for weakside shotblocking, but nobody's gonna bounce the other team around down low. If Davis came back, they would be a much, much more dangerous team overall.


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## HB

Neither does Duke though, Zoubek is gone. And the Plumlees arent exactly low post monsters.


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## Blue

^They wont be as good w/o Zoubek imo... Guy was a damn beast on the glass who noone had an answer for. Granted, they'll still be top 10 team with Kyrie & Seth coming in(who I think will be better than Sheyer).


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## Diable

So Brian Zoubek is the greatest 19 minute per game player in the history of college basketball. Duke just won 35 games and a title. They'll be better next year. Anything less than the final four is a failure. Lowry is the best player we've had in a decade and he's going to make a huge impact. We'll be back to playing the game the way Duke wants to play the game for the first time since 2002.


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## HKF

Duke and Michigan State are the two favorites. Although watch out for Baylor. Perry Jones coming in, internal improvement from Ellis (6'6), Crump (6'9), Jefferson (6'9) and Dennis (6'6). The Bears are going to be a top five team.


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## HB

Diable said:


> So Brian Zoubek is the greatest 19 minute per game player in the history of college basketball. Duke just won 35 games and a title. They'll be better next year. Anything less than the final four is a failure. Lowry is the best player we've had in a decade and he's going to make a huge impact. We'll be back to playing the game the way Duke wants to play the game for the first time since 2002.


College ball was down this year, that's why Duke won 35 games.


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## Diable

It seems like that would help everyone doesn't it? It doesn't apply to Carolina and their 15 or 16 wins does it? If College basketball is up does anyone hear a tree falling on Roy Williams' head? There weren't any dominant teams this year. There were plenty of good teams. Now you're going to see a really good team


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## TM

fjkdsi said:


> Interesting decision, if they dont win again he might hurt his stock.


No it won't. I can't remember who wrote this but one of the major news outlet's college writer said it best - "Singler is like Tyler Hansbrough in that he is what he is." Someone suggested his stock is at an all-time high? In like the early 20's?? Please. He's not going to drop next year unless he forgets to play basketball over the offseason.



Diable said:


> If you guys think I'm excited you should check out the DBR forums. Those guys are talking about blowing out everyone on the schedule.


Idiots. They're exactly like the Tarheel morons who were unbearably annoying last year. Just shut up and enjoy your team without being annoying about it.



HB said:


> And yes I brought up UNC because Duke is our mortal enemy


you brought up UNC because you and every other UNC fan can't talk about Duke without making it Duke vs. UNC.



Blue Magic said:


> ^They wont be as good w/o Zoubek imo... Guy was a damn beast on the glass who noone had an answer for.


Don't completely agree with that first statement either. The second one I totally agree with. It won't be that they won't be as "good" as this year's team, they just won't be the same as this year's team. Afterall, let's not act like this team was an incredibly phnemonical team. They were a top 10 team all season, but I don't know that there was one week this entire season where the consensus considered them the top 1 or 2 teams in the country. The way it looks right now, next year's team shouldn't be any "worse" (opposite of "as good," right?) than this year's, should they? I mean, even experience-wise, how is this team any worse? The majority of their roster has Final Four experience. And you guys said it yourself - they have a PG who's more skilled than the one they had.


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## TM

HB said:


> College ball was down this year, that's why Duke won 35 games.


You say really dumb things sometimes.

Ok, so college basketball as a whole is down, right? Is that what you're saying? But then Duke wasn't down so that's why they won 35 games? Or just the teams Duke played were down? Or is just that your team sucked.


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## Blue

Diable said:


> So Brian Zoubek is the greatest 19 minute per game player in the history of college basketball. Duke just won 35 games and a title. They'll be better next year. Anything less than the final four is a failure. Lowry is the best player we've had in a decade and he's going to make a huge impact. We'll be back to playing the game the way Duke wants to play the game for the first time since 2002.


Who is Lowry?

And btw, Zoubek was a key player in the tournment imo, mainly becuase the teams Duke had to go through had no one who could matchup with him. I dont watch Duke all year and i'm not saying he's some lottery type talent, but I was pulling against Duke in the tourney and Zoubek seemed to be the one making every key rebound or tip-out... Maybe it was just the fact that the south pod was weak in the frontcourt, which highlighted Z's advantage but he was damn problem... 

I hated him because his presence resulted in alot off rebounds, either for him or his teammates. He was annoying imo, cause no one had an answer for him on the glass. I can respect him, simply because I watched him create problems for pretty much all the teams I was pulling for. Duke will be better in the backcourt for sure, and Mason is a more skilled big, who I will like to see get more minutes... But I dont think Mason or his brother will be as much of a damn pest on the glass as Z was, which imo was a big part of Duke's run... Doesn't mean Z was the greatest player, but the guy definitely created problems...


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## HB

TM is still here? Lol.

I dont know why you and Diable want to act like Duke faced some stiff competition all year long. There's a reason why everyone was complaining about their bracket. You won the title, thats all nice and good, but dont act like you beat any great teams on the way.



> You say really dumb things sometimes.
> 
> Ok, so college basketball as a whole is down, right? Is that what you're saying? But then Duke wasn't down so that's why they won 35 games? Or just the teams Duke played were down? Or is just that your team sucked.


If I were you I wont hit reply until I get my facts straight...dude a lot of elite teams didn't make the tourney, dont act like college ball was at its best. This was one of the worst tourneys in recent years. UNC, UCLA, Uconn all had down years, the NCAA tourney was missing that star power.


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## Blue

TM said:


> Afterall, let's not act like this team was an incredibly *phnemonical* team.


Phenomanastical? :thinking2:


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## rebelsun

HKF said:


> Duke and Michigan State are the two favorites. Although watch out for Baylor. Perry Jones coming in, internal improvement from Ellis (6'6), Crump (6'9), Jefferson (6'9) and Dennis (6'6). The Bears are going to be a top five team.


I really like what Baylor is doing, but I think they're gonna miss Udoh a lot next year; they'll be pretty thin (no pun intended) in the post. Their perimeter scoring will be fantastic, but there's no real defensive presence down low. Jones, Jefferson, and Sekelja are all gonna have to contribute more. Acy is fun to watch and can be beastly, but at the end of the day he's still undersized. Adding juco post Monterale Clark would help some.


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## TM

HB said:


> TM is still here? Lol.


If you would have actually read my thread in the admin forum, then you would have seen that I said that I was still going to come around. Besides, there no way I'm going to leave everyone else to have to deal with your ridiculousness by themselves.



HB said:


> I dont know why you and Diable want to act like Duke faced some stiff competition all year long. There's a reason why everyone was complaining about their bracket. You won the title, thats all nice and good, but dont act like you beat any great teams on the way.


Where did I say Duke faced incredible teams all year? They played 35 teams and didn't win one game against a good team? Bottom line: a lot of teams that aren't usually good were good and some teams that are usually good weren't good. You have to look at the field across the board. An example: Those 4 teams weren't like your beloved Tarheels. None of them blew out opponents with their juggernaut offenses. But all four of those teams were legit defensive teams... You're right, there were no offensive stars, no high powered offenses. But I guarantee 3 out of those 4 teams could have beaten your Heels or anyone else in that FInal Four last season because of their defense, rebounding, and/or experience. Is that inaccurate?



HB said:


> If I were you I wont hit reply until I get my facts straight...


What facts did I have wrong?

This is why it's not as fun as it used to be to post. Your biased posts in every thread you enter are out of control. And then it's like you go to every hater message board and news article, see what they say, then come back here and just start repeating everything without putting any thought to what you're saying.


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## HB

How am I biased? Duke are the national champs arent they, no one can take that away from them.


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## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> If I were you I wont hit reply until I get my facts straight...


If you were him...you definitely would post before you got your facts straight. It is what you do.


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## HB

*yawn*

P.s. on another note, wanted to ask but kept forgetting, do you still work for DE?


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## coolpohle

HB said:


> College ball was down this year, that's why Duke won 35 games.


If you think college ball was down this year, just wait until next year.


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## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> *yawn*
> 
> P.s. on another note, wanted to ask but kept forgetting, do you still work for DE?


When was the last time you saw one of my articles on DraftExpress? 

And as usual, your question is incorrect. You didn't forget to ask, you forgot that you already asked and I already answered. 

Wheeeeeee!!!!!!


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## HB

Interestingly enough never saw that response...thought as much, was checking DE and didnt see your name on there. Makes sense now.


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## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> Interestingly enough never saw that response


Your selective memory comes up almost every time you post these boards. What would be so "interesting" about this occurrence?


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## HKF

RebelSun said:


> I really like what Baylor is doing, but I think they're gonna miss Udoh a lot next year; they'll be pretty thin (no pun intended) in the post. Their perimeter scoring will be fantastic, but there's no real defensive presence down low. Jones, Jefferson, and Sekelja are all gonna have to contribute more. Acy is fun to watch and can be beastly, but at the end of the day he's still undersized. Adding juco post Monterale Clark would help some.


Well, Lomers played behind Diene last year. I mean I expect this Sekelja to be a big body (he'll only be a sophomore next year), but the athletes he will be next to. I mean even if they only go Acy, Jones and Jones on the frontline, that is still 6'11, 6'7, 6'10 with 6'9, 7'1, 6'9 off the bench. Seriously, they have NBA size. If they get Clark, they are even bigger. 

I actually expect them to press a little bit next year.


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## rocketeer

HKF said:


> Well, Lomers played behind Diene last year. I mean I expect this Sekelja to be a big body (he'll only be a sophomore next year), but the athletes he will be next to. I mean even if they only go Acy, Jones and Jones on the frontline, that is still 6'11, 6'7, 6'10 with 6'9, 7'1, 6'9 off the bench. Seriously, they have NBA size. If they get Clark, they are even bigger.
> 
> I actually expect them to press a little bit next year.


i think baylor is going to be fine inside even if they only get big contributions from acy, jones, and jones. i'm more worried about their pg play. walton was ok in limited minutes last year. for them to be a top 5-10 caliber team, they need walton to really step up and have stargell love come in and play a role similar to the one walton played last year.

i'd probably have baylor more in the 15-20 range than top 5.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

Am I crazy for thinking that Va Tech is a Top 10 team as long as Delaney returns?


----------



## Ghost

Jonathan Watters said:


> Am I crazy for thinking that Va Tech is a Top 10 team as long as Delaney returns?


no, but if he doesn't they aren't in the top 25 to start the season imo.


----------



## rocketeer

with corey joseph committing to texas, texas will be a top 10 team if avery bradley returns.


----------



## bball2223

rocketeer said:


> with corey joseph committing to texas, texas will be a top 10 team if avery bradley returns.


I'm not saying they can't do it because the talent is there, but we see this almost every year with Rick Barnes. Ton of talent, but Barnes is a mediocre coach. After they fooled me this past season I will never get too excited about a Barnes coached team.


----------



## rocketeer

bball2223 said:


> I'm not saying they can't do it because the talent is there, but we see this almost every year with Rick Barnes. Ton of talent, but Barnes is a mediocre coach. After they fooled me this past season I will never get too excited about a Barnes coached team.


that's what espn is telling us right now, but it really isn't true. yeah, the team fell apart last year. **** happens. barnes coached teams have had a lot of success when led by good pgs(which i would say is generally the case with any team). texas will have that this year with joseph.


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## coolpohle

Virginia Tech may be a top five team next year if Delaney comes back. The return everyone and have Chaney coming in. Even if Delaney leaves I would still think they'd be better than most project.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

rocketeer said:


> that's what espn is telling us right now, but it really isn't true. yeah, the team fell apart last year. **** happens. barnes coached teams have had a lot of success when led by good pgs(which i would say is generally the case with any team). texas will have that this year with joseph.


It is just hard to put any stock in Barnes' coaching ability after last season. He had all the pieces, and pieces that should have fit well together. They were a glorified AAU team trying to play college basketball. Having 5 first options on the court at all times clearly doesn't work, and if Barnes doesn't change that philosophy his teams aren't going to contend anytime soon.


----------



## rocketeer

Jonathan Watters said:


> It is just hard to put any stock in Barnes' coaching ability after last season. He had all the pieces, and pieces that should have fit well together. They were a glorified AAU team trying to play college basketball. Having 5 first options on the court at all times clearly doesn't work, and if Barnes doesn't change that philosophy his teams aren't going to contend anytime soon.


except that the team didn't have all the pieces.

and 5 first options? how does that in any way describe texas? balbay and mason started some games together in the backcourt. 3 of the big men off the bench had literally no offensive skill and pittman was worthless half the time.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

rocketeer said:


> except that the team didn't have all the pieces.
> 
> and 5 first options? how does that in any way describe texas? balbay and mason started some games together in the backcourt. 3 of the big men off the bench had literally no offensive skill and pittman was worthless half the time.


Dexter Pittman was in no way, shape or form worthless. He didn't get consistent touches, and that is what he needed to be effective. Teams were able to collapse on him because his teammates didn't have the first idea how to space the floor effectively. There was no ball movement whatsoever, and if the first available shot wasn't taken one of the guards would pound the ball into the ground. 

There is absolutely no justification for saying that this team didn't have all the pieces. They had ballhandlers, penetrators, shooters, post scorers, versatility, and plenty of experience. Quit being a fan, and look at the situation realistically!


----------



## rocketeer

Jonathan Watters said:


> Dexter Pittman was in no way, shape or form worthless. He didn't get consistent touches, and that is what he needed to be effective. Teams were able to collapse on him because his teammates didn't have the first idea how to space the floor effectively. There was no ball movement whatsoever, and if the first available shot wasn't taken one of the guards would pound the ball into the ground.
> 
> There is absolutely no justification for saying that this team didn't have all the pieces. They had ballhandlers, penetrators, shooters, post scorers, versatility, and plenty of experience. Quit being a fan, and look at the situation realistically!


well at least you went away from the "5 first options on the floor at once" nonsense.

and no, texas didn't have all the pieces. how many players did they have who actually played both sides of the ball? by my count just 4(or really 3.5). just james, bradley, johnson, and sometimes pittman. the other bigs, jai lucas, and jcovan brown(other than a couple of games he got hot and made a bunch of shots he had no business taking) weren't good on either end of the floor. balbay and mason could only play defense. hamilton until the very end of the year could only play offense.

texas lacked frontcourt depth, backcourt scoring, 3 point shooting, and free throw shooting. that's really having all the pieces?


----------



## Jonathan Watters

rocketeer said:


> texas lacked frontcourt depth, backcourt scoring, 3 point shooting, and free throw shooting. that's really having all the pieces?


Texas lacked frontcourt depth? If having a former McDonald's All-American and multiple former Top 100 recruits coming off the bench is a lack of depth, there isn't a single team in the country with frontcourt depth! 

You can pretty much say the same thing about backcourt scoring and 3-point shooting. Jai Lucas, Avery Bradley, J'Covan Brown and Jordan Hamilton are an embarrassment of riches in both categories. Nothing short of absurd to say they were lacking in these areas. 

You are right about the free throw shooting, but free throw shooting isn't exactly a natural skill. You have to work at it a little. But I suppose you think the players were just lazy and it has nothing to do with Barnes?

You are just another example of how people lose the ability to think logically about things they are personally connected to.


----------



## rocketeer

Jonathan Watters said:


> Texas lacked frontcourt depth? If having a former McDonald's All-American and multiple former Top 100 recruits coming off the bench is a lack of depth, there isn't a single team in the country with frontcourt depth!


why does their recruiting rank matter? matt hill, clint chapman, and alexis wangmene are all terrible basketball players. i'm pretty sure they missed more layups than the made last season. it was a 3 man frontcourt with one guy limited to nothing more than half the game.



> You can pretty much say the same thing about backcourt scoring and 3-point shooting. Jai Lucas, Avery Bradley, J'Covan Brown and Jordan Hamilton are an embarrassment of riches in both categories. Nothing short of absurd to say they were lacking in these areas.


texas shot 34.5% for the year from 3 point range.

yes, jcovan brown and jai lucas are embarrassments but not of riches. with jcovan brown, i guess it's not just you. i feel like i must be the only person who actually watched the guy play. he was terrible. absolutely terrible.



> You are right about the free throw shooting, but free throw shooting isn't exactly a natural skill. You have to work at it a little. But I suppose you think the players were just lazy and it has nothing to do with Barnes?


no idea what the problem is. but barnes did hold back abrams, atchley, augustin, durant, kenton paulino, etc from being good free throw shooters? i don't think so.



> You are just another example of how people lose the ability to think logically about things they are personally connected to.


i'd say it's logical to say that a team with only 3 decent post players lacks post depth(especially when one can only play half the game). it's also logical to say that a team ranked in the 160s in the nation for 3 point percentage lacks 3 point shooting. same with the poor free throw shooting. the backcourt scoring is more debatable, but just check the numbers. it's not anything texas did efficiently and texas didn't really have the personnel to do it efficiently either.


----------



## Jonathan Watters

rocketeer said:


> why does their recruiting rank matter? matt hill, clint chapman, and alexis wangmene are all terrible basketball players. i'm pretty sure they missed more layups than the made last season. it was a 3 man frontcourt with one guy limited to nothing more than half the game.


Chapman and Wangmene would have started for several Big XII teams last year - most Big XII teams didn't have the luxury of bringing these types of players off their bench. God forbid you actually have to watch what a non-talented Division One team actually looks like!



> texas shot 34.5% for the year from 3 point range.


And the shot selection was downright horrendous, how many of these shots were rushed and outside of the offense? 

We are trying to answer the question of why Texas didn't live up to expectations, not whether or not they lived up to expectations. I agree with you 100% that Texas shot 34.5% from 3-point range, so you can stop bringing up these redundant points. 



> yes, jcovan brown and jai lucas are embarrassments but not of riches. with jcovan brown, i guess it's not just you. i feel like i must be the only person who actually watched the guy play. he was terrible. absolutely terrible.


Both players are extremely talented. Lucas was a very effective player as a freshman. It was just dumb luck that he forgot how to play during his year off? That Wagmene and Chapman went from Top 100 recruits to guys who supposedly can't even tie their own shoes? That a group of very good 3-point shooters couldn't shoot a good percentage from 3? That a guy who was clearly capable scoring in the paint whenever he wanted against whoever he wanted suddenly couldn't get a shot up? I could go on...




> no idea what the problem is. but barnes did hold back abrams, atchley, augustin, durant, kenton paulino, etc from being good free throw shooters? i don't think so.


Like I said, FT shooting is the one legitimate point you are making. Everything else is the rationalization of a homer. 



> i'd say it's logical to say that a team with only 3 decent post players lacks post depth(especially when one can only play half the game).


And the fact that every team in the Big XII other than Kansas would dream about having a 5th big man as talented as Clint Chapman...that is just a little detail that would be way too inconvenient to your argument for you to actually acknowledge. 



> it's also logical to say that a team ranked in the 160s in the nation for 3 point percentage lacks 3 point shooting. same with the poor free throw shooting. the backcourt scoring is more debatable, but just check the numbers. it's not anything texas did efficiently and texas didn't really have the personnel to do it efficiently either.


It is absolutely ridiculous to say that Balbay, Bradley, Brown, Lucas, and Hamilton isn't the personnel to be efficient. There wasn't a more talented backcourt in the conference, perhaps even in the country. Pointing out that they weren't efficient has absolutely nothing to do with anything. They obviously weren't efficient. They SHOULD have been efficient, and this isn't debatable to anybody with the slightest ability to look at the situation realistically.


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## rocketeer

Jonathan Watters said:


> It is absolutely ridiculous to say that Balbay, Bradley, Brown, Lucas, and Hamilton isn't the personnel to be efficient. There wasn't a more talented backcourt in the conference, perhaps even in the country. Pointing out that they weren't efficient has absolutely nothing to do with anything. They obviously weren't efficient. They SHOULD have been efficient, and this isn't debatable to anybody with the slightest ability to look at the situation realistically.


why should they have been efficient? you put two guys who don't play offense(balbay and mason), two guys with horrible shot selection(brown and hamilton), one guy who either didn't have the ability or mentality to take over(bradley), the only guy with playmaking ability is also the worst decision maker on the team(brown), and you expect that to be an efficient backcourt?

that's a fault of you, not the team.

the texas team definitely had all those flaws. ignoring them is not looking at the situation realistically.


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## Jonathan Watters

rocketeer said:


> why should they have been efficient? you put two guys who don't play offense(balbay and mason), two guys with horrible shot selection(brown and hamilton), one guy who either didn't have the ability or mentality to take over(bradley), the only guy with playmaking ability is also the worst decision maker on the team(brown), and you expect that to be an efficient backcourt?
> 
> that's a fault of you, not the team.
> 
> the texas team definitely had all those flaws. ignoring them is not looking at the situation realistically.


It is the job of the coach to put the pieces together. You have shooters, you have distributors, you have go-to scorers. A good coach gets them to complement each other. Barnes couldn't do it, and you are completely delusional if you don't get this. The talent was there, in every facet.


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## rocketeer

Jonathan Watters said:


> It is the job of the coach to put the pieces together. You have shooters, you have distributors, you have go-to scorers. A good coach gets them to complement each other. Barnes couldn't do it, and you are completely delusional if you don't get this. The talent was there, in every facet.


who were the distributors and go to scorers?

if anything you should be talking about it being barnes' fault that the defense got worse as the season progressed, not that it's someone his fault that the pieces didn't fit together on offense.

you really look at the texas roster(and backcourt specifically) from last year and say to yourself that it's a complete team that is talented in every facet? that's delusional.


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## SheriffKilla

OK now that the early entry list is pretty much set and every recruit (besides Jones and Cothron) has signed Here is a top 10 in order:

1. Duke... Singler returning and Irving and Seth Curry should be enough to cover for Scheyer, they are gonna miss Zoubek but the Plumlees + Kelly should be enough to make them the favorites
2. Ohio State... Turner is gone but Sullinger and D.Thomas are really good, PG is a big problem though, who is gonna make plays? Lighty, Buford, Thomas and even Jordan Silbert will all attempt playing the position but and if one of them proves that they are competent at it the Buckeyes should be on their way to a Final 4. 
3. Kansas State... Clemente is gone but Irving and McGruder are better than people realize and should be able to fill in for him because everyone else is back.
4. Purdue... Im assuming that JaJuan Johnson and ETWaun Moore are coming back and if Hummel recovers fully they should be able to get to the Final 4
5. Michigan State... Another team from the what should be a dominant Big 10, most of the core remains intact and they add Payne and Appling. 
6. Villanova... They lose Redding and Reynolds but last years class of Wayns, Yarou and Cheek should be ready to step up and improve on a disappointing performance last season.
7. Kansas... if they get Terrence Jones they will pass Villanova on this list but even w/o him. With Aldrich, Collins and Henry getting most of the minutes people dont realize how talented Thomas Robinson and Elijah Johnson are. Not to mention the Morris twins, Tyshawn Taylor and of course they added possibily the best frosh in the country in Josh Selby.
8. Kentucky... Nobody lost more than Kentucky but Cal turned around and stockpiled on talent with ease, if they get Jones they will also push past Kansas and Villanova into the 6th seed.
9. Syracuse... They will miss Wesley Johnson and Onuaku but Melo should be able to proved rebounding and defense for them and Dion Waiters is very good. Also last years freshmen like Mookie Jones and DeShone Riley arent bad themselves and should be able to step up this season.
10. Wisconsin... Another team from the Big 10, losing Trevon Hughes but Bo Ryan always has team exceeding expectations and he should have them in the hunt once again.

Others:
Missouri, Baylor, Butler, Texas, UNC, Memphis, Georgia, BYU


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## rebelsun

Interesting list. Michigan State seems a little low at #5; this is a Final Four team with literally every rotation player returning save for Raymar, whom Izzo has plenty of current combo Fs and bigs to replace those minutes. Without any recruiting class I would probably keep them in the top 5; with the class, I'm not sure how they're outside the top 3. 

Ohio State will be interesting to watch. Turner was one of the most valuable players in recent college ball history, and replacing him will be tough. Sullinger will be an immediate stud and should fare well with all the shooters around him. #2 seems a little high, but they could become very good very quickly. You wonder if JJ can carry the team as well as Evan did. Regardless, I don't think I'm doubting Thad Matta too much anymore.

If Hayward returns, I think Butler should be in the top 10. They have 5 out of the top 6 scorers back and a solid recruiting class coming in.


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## HB

That top 10 list above is baffling...really baffling.


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## Blue

Kansas St at #3 is extremely questionable... And so is UK and Kansas in the top 10, imo... Kansas is losing their top 3 players and Kentucky is losing their top 5... I've seen too many teams fall off in that situation, even when they bring in a great recruiting class... I would probably have them in my top 20, but there's just too many question marks for top 10.


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## rocketeer

HB said:


> That top 10 list above is baffling...really baffling.


i'm not baffled at all. i think it's a pretty decent list. k state is too high and michigan state is too low. that's about the only real problem with it(and butler should be 4th behind michigan state, duke, and ohio state if haywards returns). i'd move some teams around and end up dropping a couple of teams out for teams on his other list but it's not terrible.


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## HB

Ostate, Purdue, Kstate, Wisconsin, Syracuse and Kentucky, I am sorry are not going to be better than UNC next season. There's no way anyone who has watched Barnes, Bullock and Marshall play together can come to that decision. If they were in the Big 10, they'd win 30 games.


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## rocketeer

HB said:


> Ostate, Purdue, Kstate, Wisconsin, Syracuse and Kentucky, I am sorry are not going to be better than UNC next season. There's no way anyone who has watched Barnes, Bullock and Marshall play together can come to that decision. If they were in the Big 10, they'd win 30 games.


so it's baffling because unc isn't top 5 when most top 10s i've seen haven't had unc that high either?


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## HB

Its baffling because common sense isn't being applied to those lists.


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## rebelsun

UNC has tons of perimeter talent, but without Davis back, are very soft in the post. All that's left is beanpole Henson, injury-prone Zeller, and the unspectacular Wears. Preseason top 10 may a bit much, but they definitely have the overall talent to get there during the season.


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## rocketeer

HB said:


> Its baffling because common sense isn't being applied to those lists.


what kind of common sense tells you that a team that was 20-17 last year, 5-11 in the acc, and loses their two top performers from last season is going to be a top 5 team this year?


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## HB

The same common sense that tells me when you add the number 1 player in the nation, add two good wing players, have two good guards coming off your bench, and an improving front court player named Henson, chances are you are going to do a whole lot better than 20-11. Barnes alone is good for 5 more wins with last year's squad.

With that said, no way am I putting Ostate and Purdue over Michigan State, and there's absolutely no way the Big 10 has 4 teams in the top 10. The league IS NOT that good.


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## rocketeer

HB said:


> The same common sense that tells me when you add the number 1 player in the nation, add two good wing players, have two good guards coming off your bench, and an improving front court player named Henson, chances are you are going to do a whole lot better than 20-11. Barnes alone is good for 5 more wins with last year's squad.


problem is they don't get to add these guys to last year's squad. davis and thompson are gone.

unc definitely should be better this year and i expect top 15. but it shouldn't be surprising to anyone that they aren't preseason top 5 just because they add a top 3 recruiting class to an nit team losing their best players.


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## Blue

^They have potential of a top 15 team if things go right, But the attrition will probably set them back abit. Top 10 is pushing it. I'd say they're a pre-season top 25, with a standard deviation of about 10 by the seasons end.


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## bball2223

HB said:


> With that said, no way am I putting Ostate and Purdue over Michigan State, and there's absolutely no way the Big 10 has 4 teams in the top 10. The league IS NOT that good.


Agreed. Michigan State is the best team in that league. Ohio State lost their whole team, sure they recruited well, but who is their point guard? Purdue loses Johnson to the draft and has Hummel coming off an injury, plus they are not even close to as deep as Michigan State. Let's be real Michigan State is the class of the big 10 next year, while Purdue and Ohio State have the potential to field nice teams. Anyone who puts Purdue or Ohio State above Michigan State for next year is a freaking moron.


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## Jonathan Watters

HB said:


> The same common sense that tells me when you add the number 1 player in the nation, add two good wing players, have two good guards coming off your bench, and an improving front court player named Henson, chances are you are going to do a whole lot better than 20-11. Barnes alone is good for 5 more wins with last year's squad.


"Common sense" should also tell you that there are tons of teams "a whole lot better than 20-11" that won't be anywhere near preseason Top 10 lists. 

Nobody is arguing that UNC won't be "a whole lot better" next year, so "common sense" would further dictate that you actually respond to the argument being presented and not hand pick some ridiculous statement that was never brought up in the first place simply so you can keep being a douche. 

You are hopeless...


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## HB

*Yawn*


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## Jonathan Watters

In other words, I am right and you've got nothing to say.


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## TM

HB said:


> chances are you are going to do a whole lot better than [strike]20-11.[/strike]


I'll let the mistype slide. 16-16. Shameful to add on those NIT wins.


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## HB

Welp with the Wear Twins bolting, we've got problems now.


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## rebelsun

HB said:


> Welp with the Wear Twins bolting, we've got problems now.


One of the obvious reasons for recruiting twins is depth; in the Wears' case, there was no reason to suspect that either would leave before their senior year. This is six additional player years of post depth lost - a lot. Barnes and Graves will be playing a lot of PF and even some C.

If I were Roy, I would directly and furiously target Rakeem Christmas.


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## HB

*Telep says to go after Kadeem Jack.*


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## rebelsun

HB said:


> *Telep says to go after Kadeem Jack.*


Not a bad desperation play, but I had thought Kadeem was going to prep school. Regardless, even a guy of Jack's moderate caliber isn't gonna put them in position to make a championship run next spring. I think the best Roy can do is sell Barnes, Henson, and Bullock on staying another year and securing another stud big in the '11 class (Christmas or O'Bryant) to have a very good chance at a title. 

Regarding the Wears, is UCLA the likely candidate? They're from LA and UCLA is desperate for bigs; the Wears seem like Howland players (i.e. smart, skilled, etc).


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## Carbo04

Well, I've heard rumors. Key word being 'rumors' that James McAdoo(Top 5 recruit in the 2011 class) may be in position to graduate high school early and be on the UNC squad this fall. Would help alot if this is possible.


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## TM

...as in a UNC fan on some message board said "Andre Dawkins did it last year. Who plays post in our next class. McAdoo! He's good. He'll work."


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## Carbo04

Nah, it was on the local sports radio station. I doubt it happens but I'll hold a small bit of hope for it though.


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## SheriffKilla

Yep, I actually read the McAdoo rumor on rivals.com so its legit, I hope it comes true because he is a heck of a player and I wanna see him against legit competition early as possibile.
Will he be eligible for the draft??
Im gonna check out his birthdate but I dont think so, right?

EDIT: Ok, he was borh 1/4/93 which is 4 days late to be eligible after next season, but still would be great to see him in the NCAAs next season


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## Carbo04

I'm a tad hopeful, but I'll still believe it when I see it. But if this McAdoo thing does happen then I think TM's Dookie heart is gonna break, along with the fans of every other team in the nation. Because it would of been a lot better for them if we had kept the Wear boys as opposed to bringing in McAdoo early.


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## bball2223

Getting McAdoo in early is definitely an upgrade over the Wear twins. I'm not sure how likely it is, but I would like to see it. I just hope he "gets it" a lot faster than it took Henson because McAdoo is one hell of a prospect. This would not make us a title team though, at least not yet. I'm more worried about how the PG situation plays out.


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## TM

Carbo04 said:


> Because it would of been a lot better for them if we had kept the Wear boys as opposed to bringing in McAdoo early.


hahaha it does break my heart because that was 2 scholarships tied up on warm bodies. Best of luck getting some talent to fill the "holes." Maybe you should offer your services, carbo. I'm sure it'd be an upgrade.



> Yep, I actually read the McAdoo rumor on rivals.com so its legit, I hope it comes true because he is a heck of a player and I wanna see him against legit competition early as possibile.


Sure, it's a possibility, but don't tell me this is legit...



Rivals.com said:


> Their departure leaves the Tar Heels with only 10 scholarship players for the 2010-2011 season at the current time, and *it will be very interesting to see what Coach Williams does in terms of trying to add another 2010 player at the 11th hour or if the program tries to facilitate the early enrollment of James McAdoo*, as Duke did last year with Andre Dawkins when it became evident that the Blue Devils were losing Elliott Williams to transfer.


Ya, you're right, it wasn't a message board. It was a guy like you and me with zero inside information but has a forum for writing that happens to be one step up from a message board.


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## HB

Hopefully they get Mcadoo and go ahead and bolster that 2011 class even further


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## TM

http://www.highschoolhoop.com/recruiting-news/2010/05/mcadoo-denies-unc-rumors/


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## HB

Jack it is...no other option.


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## Blue

I know Florida was looking hard @ Jack for awhile, but I dont think he was gonna qualify. If that was true then, I dont see how he would qualify @ UNC now... It's sucks, but UNC situation reminds me alot of Florida a few years ago, w/ all the attrition. If you can get Rivers, McCadoo, and keep Barnes and Co. for a cpl years though you should be straight. It takes time, but you'll be alright. I wouldn't put too much hope in Jack, but im sure there's someone out there somewhere...


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## TM

Blue Magic said:


> If you can get Rivers, McCadoo, and keep Barnes and Co. for a cpl years though you should be straight. It takes time, but you'll be alright.


Austin Rivers Diary


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## Diable

I'd want little part of a guy who needed five years of Prep school to get ready for College. I'm guessing that they have a lot more girls at most colleges than they have at this prep school. I am guessing he probably isn't stay there because he loves it so much.


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## Blue

TM said:


> Austin Rivers Diary


Lol, Im over him. Brad Beal >... so :nah:

But good luck w/ that tho


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## Ghost

Malcolm Delaney is coming back now for sure


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## bball2223

Johnson and Moore also coming back for Purdue.


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## HB

Diable said:


> I'd want little part of a guy who needed five years of Prep school to get ready for College. I'm guessing that they have a lot more girls at most colleges than they have at this prep school. I am guessing he probably isn't stay there because he loves it so much.


Bench player...I'll repeat bench player.


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## coolpohle

Now that we know who is in or out of the NBA draft, here is my updated top 10 for whatever it's worth.

1. Michigan St. - They look to be the team to beat. Final Fours in back to back seasons with only Morgan gone and a great class coming in.
2. Ohio St. - Should challenge MSU atop the Big Ten. Even without Turner, they will have a lot of experience in the starting lineup and some impact freshman.
3. Virginia Tech - My pick to win the ACC with Delaney back. They will start four seniors and be very dangerous.
4. Duke - They lose three senior starters, but last years national champs still have Singler and Smith, the Plumlee's, and Irving and Curry.
5. Washington - The under the radar Pac 10 team. Four senior staters, a great incoming class, and maybe Gaddy will step it up.
6. Pittsburgh - No reason to think they can't win the Big East. Decent incoming class, and Gibbs and Wannamaker are legit.
7. Illinois - Another quality Big Ten team that has a lot of experience and incoming talent. Thankfully for Weber, McCamey and Davis withdrew from the NBA draft. 
8. Georgetown - No Monroe, but losing only one player isn't the end of the world. They still have plenty of talent and experience.
9. Villanova - Jay Wright got some good production from his freshman last year, and he's got a nice senior trio for next season.
10. San Diego St. - My sleeper team. A 25 win team last year that took down the MWC tournament. James Rahon, a transfer from Santa Clara is quietly a huge addition.


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## croco

Where is Purdue?


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## coolpohle

Like I've said before, I think people will underestimate how much Purdue will miss Kraemer and Grant, and that people don't realize how terrible their young players are.


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## rebelsun

coolpohle said:


> Like I've said before, I think people will underestimate how much Purdue will miss Kraemer and Grant, and that people don't realize how terrible their young players are.


They'll obviously miss both, but they still have 80% of their scoring back and a lot of different options, including a solid 4-man recruiting class, to fill those 50 minutes. After this past season, I won't underestimate Painter anymore.


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## Jonathan Watters

Cool, like usual you've got a good idea but no ability to put it into perspective. Purdue will miss both players on the defensive end. 

But you completely ignore that the loss of those players will make them better, potentially much better, on the offensive end. You call the replacements "terrible", but you are essentially talking about their offensive ability. Keaton Grant was absolutely "terrible" offensively this past season. 

You also ignore Matt Painter's repeatedly proven ability to coach defense. No, Barlow isn't going to be winning scoring titles. Can he become an elite defensive player? Absolutely. 

The reality is that they'll get better on offense, and will probably be worse on defense. They'll also have quite a bit more depth. 

Maybe this keeps them out of your top 3, but by any standard their omission from a preseason Top 10 is ridiculous.


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## coolpohle

RebelSun said:


> They'll obviously miss both, but they still have 80% of their scoring back and a lot of different options, including a solid 4-man recruiting class, to fill those 50 minutes. After this past season, I won't underestimate Painter anymore.


Purdue does not have a good class coming in, and no notable transfers that I'm aware of. Filling the gaps of Kraemer and Grant with the likes of Barlow and Lewis Jackson is going to be a nightmare to watch for Purdue fans expecting them to be a national championship contender.


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## SheriffKilla

Actually the 2 guys purdue has coming in arent bad , Ive seen Johnson play a little and he is gonna be a sleeper freshmen in the Big 10 and the other guy isnt half bad also.

EDIT: Just saw that both of their guys name is Johnson, lol... I was talking about Anthony Johnson, when I said sleeper freshmen but Terone Johnson I heard is good too


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## SheriffKilla

Here are the combined rankings from the 4 experts/sites I have seen so far, Gary Parrish (CBS), Goodman(FSN), Andy Katz(ESPN) and Rivals.com:
1. Duke 98
2. Purdue 95
3. Michigan State 94
4. Kansas State 84
5. Pittsburgh 80
5. Villanova 80
7. Ohio State 79
8. Gonzaga 63
9. Baylor 60
10. Kansas 58
11. Missouri 55
12. Florida 54
13. Illinois 46
14. Kentucky 44
14. UNC 44
16. Memphis 43
17. Temple 42
18. Washington 41
19. Butler 25
20. BYU 21
21. Virginia Tech 20
22. UNLV 18
23. Syracuse 17
24. Tennessee 14
25. GTown 9

If anyone got any other expert rankings I can probably figure them into this


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## coolpohle

fjkdsi said:


> Actually the 2 guys purdue has coming in arent bad , Ive seen Johnson play a little and he is gonna be a sleeper freshmen in the Big 10 and the other guy isnt half bad also.
> 
> EDIT: Just saw that both of their guys name is Johnson, lol... I was talking about Anthony Johnson, when I said sleeper freshmen but Terone Johnson I heard is good too


There are a good 40 teams in the country that have a freshman class as good as Purdue's.


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## bball2223

http://web.sny.tv/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100512&content_id=9994336&oid=35023&vkey=50


It will be interesting to see how they mold the offense around Irving. I think this can only benefit them with their personnel. Irving and Smith pushing the ball, the Plumlees, Singler and Kelly running the break, and Curry/Dawkins keeping defenses honest with their 3 point shooting team. Offensively this Duke team is going to be unbelievable.


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## Diable

Duke will go back to being Duke. The last seven or eight years K has had to hobble together a scheme to fit his personnel. Whenever he's had a good point guard he's given him the ball and they've run for easy baskets. He keeps a lot of the motion offense and adds in whatever he thinks works best. He's going to have to play uptempo to get PT for all the guys he has who can play. They're going to have ten or eleven legit NCAA players so they'll go at people hard.


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## rebelsun

bball2223 said:


> http://web.sny.tv/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100512&content_id=9994336&oid=35023&vkey=50
> 
> 
> It will be interesting to see how they mold the offense around Irving. I think this can only benefit them with their personnel. Irving and Smith pushing the ball, the Plumlees, Singler and Kelly running the break, and Curry/Dawkins keeping defenses honest with their 3 point shooting team. Offensively this Duke team is going to be unbelievable.


They'll miss Zoubek's size and toughness down low, especially during the tournament, but Duke will be a different animal next season. Singler should be able to slide back over to PF the majority of the time and they have four solid post players to take the remaining post minutes. The only weakness seems to be at 3, where they'll have to platoon Dawkins, Felix, and Singler. Regardless, this is a very versatile roster that will have a lot of match-up potential. Interesting to see how far they can go next season.


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## shadyview78

With Coach K leading the charge, lets just say I see Duke pulling a double over this country. At the very least I see them finishing in the top three. Check out the article and let me know your thoughts. 
http://www.msg.com/blogs/jon-rothstein/on-the-hardwood-coack-k-5-12-1.42607


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## HB

HB said:


> Hopefully they get Mcadoo and go ahead and bolster that 2011 class even further


*Link*



> James McAdoo, a 6-foot-8 power forward who's currently scheduled to graduate from high school in 2011, is considering enrolling a year early at North Carolina.
> 
> "It's something he's considering, and that's about as far as I'll go with it," said Ronnie McAdoo, the player's father. "It's something he's considering, but I don't want to get into any details about it."
> 
> McAdoo, who's considered one of the top five players in his class regardless of position, committed to North Carolina in September.
> 
> If he graduates from high school and enrolls early, he will be 17 years old when he enters North Carolina. He will turn 18 on Jan. 4 and could be the second player from Virginia in two years to take summer school classes in order to graduate a year early and attend a Triangle ACC school and play men's basketball.


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## bball2223

McAdoo would be huge because that gives us a 4 man rotation in the post. This may make us a Sweet 16 team, but we aren't an elite team. Roy Williams coached teams don't compete for national titles without great PG play, so until I see Drew or Marshall show me something outstanding paint me skeptical of this team going any further than the sweet 16.


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## HB

*We's back y'all*



> It's looking more and more like Class of 2011 commit James McAdoo may be coming to UNC a year early, which, as Bart mentioned below, turns Carolina's current recruiting class from "great" to "just plain stoopid." Additionally, SI's Luke Winn and ESPN's Eamonn Brennan each note that McAdoo could very well become the face of an early-entry trend should he decide to go to Carolina, as more recruits explore the idea. Winn also does a great job of disarming the basketball purists who might be crapping their collective pants at the idea of a bunch of high school juniors going to college, drawing parallels to McAdoo and Duke great Mike Gminski, who graduated high school in three years. Winn says ultimately, for players who already are competing at an elite level and are good enough students to warrant graduating high school early, there should be no concern for their futures:


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## rebelsun

I can't wait to see a lineup of Strickland/Bullock/Barnes/McAdoo/Henson = stupidly talented for the college level.


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## SheriffKilla

coolpohle said:


> There are a good 40 teams in the country that have a freshman class as good as Purdue's.


top 40 sounds about right but I think Johnson & Johnson will do a good enough job replacing Kramer and probably both alreadyvs good as Keaton Grant. If Hummel is back healthy and JaJuan Johnson continues to improve


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## dwilliams01

found a pretty good top 20 rankings:

http://thesportsflow.blogspot.com/2010/10/2010-2011-college-basketball-preseason.html


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## JuniorNoboa

zagsfan20 said:


> The Zags are a fringe top 10 team right now, after the WCC tourney they will be a legit top 10 team. They're losing Bouldin to the NBA, thats it. Harris isn't going anywhere, atleast for another year.
> 
> The Zags are the 7th youngest team in the nation right now.



You told me the other day you didn't expect Gonzaga to be that good this year. What happened between March and October?


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