# Anyone else leaning toward taking Morrison over Aldridge or Gay?



## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

I'm not a huge fan of this draft, but I am a Bulls fan, so inevitably I have to take sides as far as what direction I'd like to see the team go in. And honestly, I'd take Morrison over Gay or Aldridge. This may sound really odd, but I think MORRISON, despite being a 3, gives us what Eddy Curry gave us moreso than anyone else in the draft. Yeah he's at a different position and yes his offensive point of attack is 18+ feet away from Curry's (4-6 feet diagonal from the basket, posted up, back to basket), BUT to me Morrison is the one guy in this draft who will draw double teams like Curry did. What makes him different from everyone else? He reminds me of Larry Bird and Reggie Miller shooting the basketball. He's the kind of guy whose shot is do deadly that guys can't just get a hand in his face, they have to jump at him all out. That leads to that Miller/Kobe "lean while shooting" ability to draw fouls. Often he'll have the ability to have one guy jump by him and bring another guy all the way out to the perimeter. That's the one thing a swingman can do that's as dangerous as a guy like Curry who can bring that extra defender down by the basket and create a 4-on-3. Not only that but Morrison handles the rock, can dribble drive and is dangerous on the stop and pop or the running jumper once getting past that first and even second defender. Our team is made up of solid guys who struggle to consistently create their own shot. We saw what happened when Eddy's presence artificially created more space for our shooters last year. We didn't score as much as we do now last year, but what we did score was in a much more half court slow tempo game that allowed us to expend more energy on D. 

A player like Morrison is just so rare. Rarely does a player with his outside shooting touch also have the size and athleticism for his position sufficient to STAY on the floor against almost any team and not be a serious mismatch problem for his own team (see Ben Gordon, Dell Curry, Steve Kerr etc.). It's equally rare that a player with his stroke and release also has the ability to handle the rock if they fake a defender into the air and also score on runners and dribble penetration. 

And I hope people don't do what they always seem to do and get obsessed with him being a "Complete player." Curry wasn't either and he proved a point. We already have enough complete all-around players that we can afford Ben + another guy not having games as rounded as Kirk's. We have defense, rebouding, passing, etc. We even would have that if we decided that drafting Morrison meant moving Luol Deng. We STILL excel in those aspects. What we need is something special. A threat that can centralize all of our role players. Curry was that threat. He showed that the player who is that threat need not be a complete player and need not play defense, rebound or pass particularly well. I believe that Morrison is one of the rare swingmen who can be that threat too. He's the rare jumpshooter that will be SO good, that you really can live by his jumper, similar to how the Pacers lived by Reggie Miller's jumper. He's not Larry Bird as a total player. Not even close. But boy he sure does shoot like him too. 

And I know people are thinking "we have Deng and Noce." Well I don't feel we're gonna be contenders next year pretty much no matter what we do, so I'd carry 3 SFs until Noce's contract closes out. Or we could move Deng. I know that that idea has been made tantamount to trading Jordan in his prime by some, but it's really not that crazy. You have to go through a series of easily anticipated rationale to come to that conclusion though:

"Why not trade Noce?" Because Noce doesn't have 1/5th of the value Deng does and is far better than 1/5th the player Deng is. "But isn't Deng our best player?" Umm, yeah, but how big of an accomplishment is that really? "But isn't Deng going to be special?" Nope, he's gonna be good, and possibly very good, but his fans overrate him big time. Deng has not shown he can be special consistently by any means. He's shown "flashes," and during those flashes his fans act like Kobe fans and act as if that's how he always plays, when nothing could be further from the truth. 

The bottom line is that if he's as good as his fans say he is, he should bring back A LOT of value in return. With his salary for the next two seasons, and the fact that teams will be able to match after his fourth year, he becomes very attractive as a cornerstone of a small market team. We could probably dump Deng with a lot of unwanted salary for a decent big/true SG and draft picks. Something like:

Deng
Sweetney
Allen
Songaila
Harrington

maybe in a SIGN and trade for one of the guys we're already targeting and a pick or two (though I'll never pretend to know enough about the CBA/BYC to know for sure whether this would work), a regular trade for one player and picks or even adding Tyson and taking a stab at Garnett. Who knows. The point is I think Deng would bring back value and if nothing came back on the trade market we'd be ok with 3 SFs until Noce leaves. 

Right now he's just looking better to me than anyone else. The idea of he and Gordon on the floor together actually does get me excited.


----------



## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

Nah...I want size!

And I'm seeing stuff I like to see in DENG finally...He'll only get better with a healthy offseason.

Bargnani or Aldridge...In that order.

Brewer or Roy...In that order.


----------



## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

If you're looking at those three guys and you're making a decision - regardless of need, I'd take morrison. I'm not overly impressed with Aldridge. Gay doesn't seem to take over games like he has the god-given ability to do. Morrison just seems to have "it". It's going to be interesting to see the kind of NCAA tournament each of those guys have.

Throw in one other name there though - Bargnani. I'd take him right now over the three above players. Even with the #1 pick.


----------



## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

As I've stated before, I'd only take Morrison or Gay if we already had a trade worked out to trade one of Morrison, Gay, or Deng. If we're drafting solely for ourselves, I'd put these guys under:

Aldridge
Bargnani
Carney
Williams
Reddick
(in no particular order)


----------



## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

What is the obsession with Darko Bargnani?


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

I like Morrison over Aldridge. He is a better player, imo. 

I understand your points. I see them as well except I am not in a hurry to trade deng. The kid is just 20 years old. If we can work around that then I am fine with wh


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

fl_flash said:


> Throw in one other name there though - Bargnani. I'd take him right now over the three above players. Even with the #1 pick.


 :clap:


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

I'm a Morrison guy, but I too am unwilling to part with Deng. Deng is going to be special.


----------



## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

Pippenatorade said:


> What is the obsession with Darko Bargnani?


I don't think I'd call it an obsession as much as it is liking another talented player. The main difference between Darko and Bargnani is that Darko got no playing time in Europe and was truly all hype (same with Tskishvilli). Darko was also very young. Bargnani is getting good playing time on one of the top teams in europe and is producing at a very good level. He's getting actual playing time against men in the second best professional league in the world and he's excelling. He's young himself, very mobile with a nice offensive game. In short, he's a player and he's worthy of being included in any discussion of talented bigs in this draft. I don't know about the Dirk comparisons, but he's closer to Nowitski than he is to Darko or Skita. This is just one man's opinion, but I'd take him over Aldridge, Gay or even Morrison. I think he's gonna be pretty damn good.


----------



## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

Pippenatorade said:


> What is the obsession with Darko Bargnani?


I'm not obsessed with him, I'm just not ignoring him as a better fit possibility. Since I can't see much of him, I'll leave it to the Bulls talent scouts on this one.

He is definately more proven in Euro-ball than Darko, so I guess the next question is what's the obsession with the Darko comparison. He's tall, young, and plays in Europe. I think the comparisons stop just about there.


----------



## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

fl_flash said:


> I don't think I'd call it an obsession as much as it is liking another talented player. The main difference between Darko and Bargnani is that Darko got no playing time in Europe and was truly all hype (same with Tskishvilli). Darko was also very young. Bargnani is getting good playing time on one of the top teams in europe and is producing at a very good level. He's getting actual playing time against men in the second best professional league in the world and he's excelling. He's young himself, very mobile with a nice offensive game. In short, he's a player and he's worthy of being included in any discussion of talented bigs in this draft. I don't know about the Dirk comparisons, but he's closer to Nowitski than he is to Darko or Skita. This is just one man's opinion, but I'd take him over Aldridge, Gay or even Morrison. I think he's gonna be pretty damn good.


Yes every euro is different. Darko was different too remember? Every euro is more like Peja, Dirk, Petrovic etc. than they are like all the dozens and dozens and dozens of busts for every one of these players who actually become even a very good starter. And every time, no matter how much you hold up one of the guys that was "different" a couple years ago and say "look, do you remember what all the euro fans were saying about THIS guy" this next guy is different. You'd think that after Darko, and Tskitishivili (no, he's not good enough to have a nickname, almost 98% of the chumps aren't; he's Tskitishvili, just like "Nene" is Maybiner Hilario), and that Polish player from a couple years back. God I can't even remember his name, I just remember him ending up in the second round after all of his hype. And Pietrus, and Schortsianidis, and all these guys. Almost none of them ever comes close to being as good as the hype. Kukoc even. He was the european Magic Johnson. I never even saw one thing about his game resembling Magic. Yeah I guess he's tall like Magic, and if you put him in a gym with a bunch of guys who run 5.5 forty yard dashes, he's also got some great PG skills. You want to know everything you need to know about European players? The answer to this question tells you:

Where does Detlef Schrempf rank on the all time list of euros?

Pretty high. Way TOO high for me to be impressed.

And it is true that Bargnani may be in the second best pro league in the world, but the second best LEAGUE in the world is still the NCAA, and it isn't even close. This despite the extreme dillusion of talent due to early entry. 

This is not a personal stab at you or any Bargnani fans, but if the end result of the promises that came after Eddy Curry left, if Darko Bargnani ends up being it, I really will jump.


----------



## 4door (Sep 5, 2005)

if Morrison blows up in the tourney the way Carmelo did, we have to take him because he will have the most value. We could trade him on draft day for a quality big, that we could not get in this draft. I wonder if Boston see's all of the "next Bird" stuff as a huge PR boost, and might give up Jefferson and Perkins for Morrison/Sweetney. We need talent down low and we can't get that in this lotto.


----------



## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Pippenatorade said:


> Yes every euro is different. Darko was different too remember? Every euro is more like Peja, Dirk, Petrovic etc. than they are like all the dozens and dozens and dozens of busts for every one of these players who actually become even a very good starter. And every time, no matter how much you hold up one of the guys that was "different" a couple years ago and say "look, do you remember what all the euro fans were saying about THIS guy" this next guy is different. You'd think that after Darko, and Tskitishivili (no, he's not good enough to have a nickname, almost 98% of the chumps aren't; he's Tskitishvili, just like "Nene" is Maybiner Hilario), and that Polish player from a couple years back. God I can't even remember his name, I just remember him ending up in the second round after all of his hype. And Pietrus, and Schortsianidis, and all these guys. Almost none of them ever comes close to being as good as the hype. Kukoc even. He was the european Magic Johnson. I never even saw one thing about his game resembling Magic. Yeah I guess he's tall like Magic, and if you put him in a gym with a bunch of guys who run 5.5 forty yard dashes, he's also got some great PG skills. You want to know everything you need to know about European players? The answer to this question tells you:
> 
> Where does Detlef Schrempf rank on the all time list of euros?
> 
> ...


I'm not quite sure how to rank Bargnani, I have a hard time contextualizing performance in foreign leagues. I wouldn't totally write off Milicic yet. He's averaging 7 points, 5 board and 2 blocks in 20 MPG for Orlando. As the blocks indicate he's a much more physical interior presence than most European big men. I'd much rather have him than Kwame Brown, although I suppose that isn't saying all that much.


----------



## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

I like Aldridge because he's proven himself to be jib player on a very talented Texas team, his baseline jumpers remind me of Antonio Davis, he has great mobility that bodes well for the Bulls' guard-oriented offense, and he added 25 pounds of muscle since last year.

I like Morrison because I think he is a special player in a Carmelo-at-Syracuse sense. I think of Morrison as possibly a small forward version of Michael Redd in which both have accurate jump shots that are nearly unguardable, and because of that their abilities to penetrate are increased. You have to admit that Michael Redd is not close to being a world class athlete but can score in the mid-20s because of his ability to shoot off the dribble. I think Morrison is a borderline can't-miss prospect that no team should ever draft out of need.

Of course, I still like Bargnani because he can be the Bulls' Rasheed clone, but if they have the first pick in the draft I would go with Morrison.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

4door said:


> if Morrison blows up in the tourney the way Carmelo did, we have to take him because he will have the most value. We could trade him on draft day for a quality big, that we could not get in this draft. I wonder if Boston see's all of the "next Bird" stuff as a huge PR boost, and might give up Jefferson and Perkins for Morrison/Sweetney. We need talent down low and we can't get that in this lotto.


there not gonna trade litterally 2 of the young bigs they're building a future on for morrison..

they'd only have sweet & lafrentz..

not happenin


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

jbulls said:


> I'm not quite sure how to rank Bargnani, I have a hard time contextualizing performance in foreign leagues. I wouldn't totally write off Milicic yet. He's averaging 7 points, 5 board and 2 blocks in 20 MPG for Orlando. As the blocks indicate he's a much more physical interior presence than most European big men. I'd much rather have him than Kwame Brown, although I suppose that isn't saying all that much.


if u wanna get technical..he's really a ROOKIE out there.....he puts up decent numbers in 20 min and hasn't even played 25 min yet...

when he get's 35-40...15, 10 & 2blks per game isn't out of the question for the rest of this season

or for next season...


----------



## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

TwinkieTowers said:


> I like Aldridge because he's proven himself to be jib player on a very talented Texas team, his baseline jumpers remind me of Antonio Davis, he has great mobility that bodes well for the Bulls' guard-oriented offense, and he added 25 pounds of muscle since last year.
> 
> I like Morrison because I think he is a special player in a Carmelo-at-Syracuse sense. I think of Morrison as possibly a small forward version of Michael Redd in which both have accurate jump shots that are nearly unguardable, and because of that their abilities to penetrate are increased. You have to admit that Michael Redd is not close to being a world class athlete but can score in the mid-20s because of his ability to shoot off the dribble. I think Morrison is a borderline can't-miss prospect that no team should ever draft out of need.
> 
> Of course, I still like Bargnani because he can be the Bulls' Rasheed clone, but if they have the first pick in the draft I would go with Morrison.


Does that make Tyson Ben Wallace's clone? I personally think he's more like Otis Thorpe than Ben Wallace, at least physically if not skill set wise.

Yeah Redd would be a good comparison on a "different-position" basis. Very good. But I think when you have a player who can do what Redd and Bird and Miller do/did with their jumper, they become infinitely more dangerous as SFs than SGs. Because if a slower player can do it, then it leaves a SG and a PG as the quickest two players off the ball, as opposed to a SF and PG. Do you agree? I'm not disagreeing with what you say, just saying that I believe Morrison could be even MORE valuable than Redd, or at least that aspect of his game could.


----------



## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

The ROY said:


> if u wanna get technical..he's really a ROOKIE out there.....he puts up decent numbers in 20 min and hasn't even played 25 min yet...
> 
> when he get's 35-40...15, 10 & 2blks per game isn't out of the question for the rest of this season
> 
> or for next season...


Actually he's not. He's in his third season. He wasn't just on the bench because of Ben and Sheed. He couldn't get in their ahead of an old McDyess or Elden Campbell, who I have memories of from when the BULLS AND LAKERS MET IN THE 1991 Finals. 

He's in his third year. And just like Tyson, why the assumption that stats increase at the same rate as playing time does? Nothing could be further from the truth. Stats per 48 minutes can kiss my bleep. Barkley went off on that one night and I agree. 

15, 10 and 2 is not even as good as what Darko hypesters TOLD US that we should expect from him if we wanted to really know our basketball. It's hard to take someone seriously about Bargnani when they really haven't given up on Darko. But instead are just waiting for the "real Darko" to come out and show the world.


----------



## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Pippenatorade said:


> 15, 10 and 2 is not even as good as what Darko hypesters TOLD US that we should expect from him if we wanted to really know our basketball. It's hard to take someone seriously about Bargnani when they really haven't given up on Darko. But instead are just waiting for the "real Darko" to come out and show the world.


by the same token, 15/10/2 certainly won't make him look worth the #2 pick in that excellent draft, but there are certainly some #2 picks who have been worse. I'm not a huge Darko fan, but he has produced enough in the minutes he's gotten in Orlando to make me think he's not a waste of space and could be a solid starter alongside a beast like Howard. I don't blame you for being hostile to the Darko/Tskitisidohjadsvili hype circus and associating it with Bargnani, but I don't think the final chapter has been written on Darko quite yet. I still have pretty much no opinion on Bargnani because all I've seen are a couple highlight reels. Harold Miner looked good in highlights too.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Pippenatorade said:


> 15, 10 and 2 is not even as good as what Darko hypesters TOLD US that we should expect from him if we wanted to really know our basketball. It's hard to take someone seriously about Bargnani when they really haven't given up on Darko. But instead are just waiting for the "real Darko" to come out and show the world.


i never said Bargnani was the ANSWER or a potential star, but he looks pretty good..as do the rest of the projected top 5 of the 2006 lotto.

i also probably dissed darko worse than MOST people out there but he's playing pretty damn good for someone i thought had NO talent. i never said he'd be a star either but he's playing well and learning. he doesn't even have MUCH game experience except being put in the game the last 5 minutes by brown..so yeah..he damn near IS a rookie IMO...there is a possibility that he might turn out to be, i dunno, GOOD?


----------



## step (Sep 19, 2005)

So back to the point, yes I still am.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

step said:


> So back to the point, yes I still am.


at this point..I'd take also take Morrison over Aldridge & Gay.


----------



## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

The ROY said:


> at this point..I'd take also take Morrison over Aldridge & Gay.


I like him best out of the three, but I don't see how he'd mesh with our team. Still, if Paxson thinks he's going to be a star I hope he gambles and takes him. We're not a good enough team to take a "filling holes" mentality with this pick.


----------



## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

The ROY said:


> if u wanna get technical..he's really a ROOKIE out there.....he puts up decent numbers in 20 min and hasn't even played 25 min yet...
> 
> when he get's 35-40...15, 10 & 2blks per game isn't out of the question for the rest of this season
> 
> or for next season...


He's showing signs of life, but with his basketball IQ I think he's a long way from logging 35 to 40 minutes a game. I bet he averages around 25 next season.


----------



## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

I don't have a problem with Aldridge - I think he's going to be pretty good right away and eventually very good, but I agree that Morrison looks like more of an impact player at this point. If we have the #1, it'll be a tough decision. I definitely like both guys over Gay right now, though.


----------



## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

ViciousFlogging said:


> I don't have a problem with Aldridge - I think he's going to be pretty good right away and eventually very good, but I agree that Morrison looks like more of an impact player at this point. If we have the #1, it'll be a tough decision. I definitely like both guys over Gay right now, though.


And that's what we really have to look at here. We can't afford to wait 2-3 years on a guy to be a good dependable starter who can be a threat and hold his own. I'd rather take 70 cents next year and have it be 80 in 3 years than take 55 cents next year and have it be 85 in 3 years.. make sense?


----------



## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

jbulls said:


> I'm not quite sure how to rank Bargnani, I have a hard time contextualizing performance in foreign leagues. I wouldn't totally write off Milicic yet. He's averaging 7 points, 5 board and 2 blocks in 20 MPG for Orlando. As the blocks indicate he's a much more physical interior presence than most European big men. I'd much rather have him than Kwame Brown, although I suppose that isn't saying all that much.


Same here. Having not really watched much international ball aside from the olympics, I'm really not that sure how the league's compare, and how to gauge how well someone's game translates from the international style to the pro style. And playing time is much more political over there too, from what I understand. Add in the fact that I've never actually watched the guy play, and the fact that I'd imagine most of the information going on around him is probably just stuff that's been regurgitated a 1000 times from the original source, I don't know how anyone can _really_ have a good idea of what they're getting. 

However, with that being said, there probably are a few things that he has going in his favor.

If anything, I'd say he's suffering from being a European right now. The attitudes foreign players seems to have completed a cycle somewhat right now, with Darko and Skita, and there's a bit of a backlash towards Euro Hype. And from what I've heard, scouts have seen more of him than they had of Pau Gasol and Dirk when they were drafted, and apparently, he's produced more consistently than either of them did while they were in Europe. Most of the scouting reports from the major sites seem to be pretty consistent as well about what his strengths and weaknesses are. So, while I can't really claim him as 'my guy' or even make myself an advocate of drafting him, I don't really think he's purely a product hype either (at least, no more than Adam Morrison or JJ Reddick), I won't be enraged if we draft him.


----------



## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

rosenthall said:


> Same here. Having not really watched much international ball aside from the olympics, I'm really not that sure how the league's compare, and how to gauge how well someone's game translates from the international style to the pro style. And playing time is much more political over there too, from what I understand. Add in the fact that I've never actually watched the guy play, and the fact that I'd imagine most of the information going on around him is probably just stuff that's been regurgitated a 1000 times from the original source, I don't know how anyone can _really_ have a good idea of what they're getting.
> 
> However, with that being said, there probably are a few things that he has going in his favor.
> 
> If anything, I'd say he's suffering from being a European right now. The attitudes foreign players seems to have completed a cycle somewhat right now, with Darko and Skita, and there's a bit of a backlash towards Euro Hype. And from what I've heard, scouts have seen more of him than they had of Pau Gasol and Dirk when they were drafted, and apparently, he's produced more consistently than either of them did while they were in Europe. Most of the scouting reports from the major sites seem to be pretty consistent as well about what his strengths and weaknesses are. So, while I can't really claim him as 'my guy' or even make myself an advocate of drafting him, I don't really think he's purely a product hype either (at least, no more than Adam Morrison or JJ Reddick), I won't be enraged if we draft him.


Has there ever been a worse top 5 pick than Nikoloz Tskitishvili? He's just terrible. Drafted in 2002, shooting a shade under 30 percent over his career, and can't rebound and defend. A truly dreadful player, and he's been on four teams...


----------



## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

I don't know how good Bargnani is. All I can say is I don't see how anybody who hasn't seen him play can take any kind vehement stance either pro or against him. The only evidence we have on him, which is that he is playing well in the best Euro league, suggests that he probably has at least some game. The only things I've heard against him is that he's a perimeter guy,which holds some weight for me, and that he's European, which isn't valid.


----------



## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

Pippenatorade said:


> Yes every euro is different. Darko was different too remember? Every euro is more like Peja, Dirk, Petrovic etc. than they are like all the dozens and dozens and dozens of busts for every one of these players who actually become even a very good starter. And every time, no matter how much you hold up one of the guys that was "different" a couple years ago and say "look, do you remember what all the euro fans were saying about THIS guy" this next guy is different. You'd think that after Darko, and Tskitishivili (no, he's not good enough to have a nickname, almost 98% of the chumps aren't; he's Tskitishvili, just like "Nene" is Maybiner Hilario), and that Polish player from a couple years back. God I can't even remember his name, I just remember him ending up in the second round after all of his hype. And Pietrus, and Schortsianidis, and all these guys. Almost none of them ever comes close to being as good as the hype. Kukoc even. He was the european Magic Johnson. I never even saw one thing about his game resembling Magic. Yeah I guess he's tall like Magic, and if you put him in a gym with a bunch of guys who run 5.5 forty yard dashes, he's also got some great PG skills. You want to know everything you need to know about European players? The answer to this question tells you:
> 
> Where does Detlef Schrempf rank on the all time list of euros?
> 
> Pretty high. Way TOO high for me to be impressed.


Not too high. I don't consider him a classic euro because he played almost all his career in USA...



> And it is true that Bargnani may be in the second best pro league in the world, but the second best LEAGUE in the world is still the NCAA, and it isn't even close. This despite the extreme dillusion of talent due to early entry.


You don't tell the truth, man! Euroleague is the 2nd league after NBA and Spanish and Italian are 3rd and 4th... all of them have better level than your NCAA! They're professional leagues with MENs playing, not just kids (with talent of course) like in college basketball... Bargnani stats are impressive at all, more if you consider his limited PT!

Put Bargnani in NCAA and he'd average something like 20+10... i'm pretty sure about this.
Put your NCAA guys in Euroleague and... i don't know.


----------



## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

jbulls said:


> Has there ever been a worse top 5 pick than Nikoloz Tskitishvili? He's just terrible. Drafted in 2002, shooting a shade under 30 percent over his career, and can't rebound and defend. A truly dreadful player, and he's been on four teams...


Well, I'd say Jonathan Bender comes pretty close. He didn't do a lick either, and at least Skita's still in the league, although that might change when his contract is up.


----------



## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

rosenthall said:


> Well, I'd say Jonathan Bender comes pretty close. He didn't do a lick either, and at least Skita's still in the league, although that might change when his contract is up.


Bender was underwhelming, especially for a lottery pick, and derailed his chance at fulfilling his promise - but Skita is comically bad. Bender had a couple years where he averaged 20 MPG for the Pacers and played competently. Skita has never even approached mediocrity...


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

jbulls said:


> He's showing signs of life, but with his basketball IQ I think he's a long way from logging 35 to 40 minutes a game. I bet he averages around 25 next season.


NO way they'll only play him 25 min a game next season

that's just NOT gonna happen


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Pippenatorade said:


> And that's what we really have to look at here. We can't afford to wait 2-3 years on a guy to be a good dependable starter who can be a threat and hold his own. I'd rather take 70 cents next year and have it be 80 in 3 years than take 55 cents next year and have it be 85 in 3 years.. make sense?



i agree with u..

regardless of the fact...the only way for us to become better is thru our picks..cuz nobody we're talking about trading for is gonna make us contenders...


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

oh yeah, that kid darko has :

8pts, 5BLKS, 3rebs & 2asts in 18 min of play tonight so far vs. indiana

the 4th is about to start


----------



## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Sorry guys, but I can't stand anymore all those "Bargnani = Darko/Skita" etc ...

C'mon, just look the numbers: Skita played just 3 or 4 euroleague games and 5-6 mpg in the italian league with something like 1ppg and 1rpg ... now Bargnani is starting in the Euroleague and the italian league with games like 18/11 or 20/7 etc ... 

He made games that Skita and Darko could only dream ...

C'mon, pleaze stop the Darko/Skita BS 

Attention, Andrea is listening you ... and the next year he'll kick your azz :banana:


----------



## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

The ROY said:


> NO way they'll only play him 25 min a game next season
> 
> that's just NOT gonna happen


Don't the presupposing assertions about Darko ever get old? I mean there was "no way" he wasn't going to reinvent how europeans are viewed in the NBA either right? There was "no way" he wasn't going to show that he was not only a good #2 pick, but one of the great ones right? There was "no way" that more than a few players could guard him both inside and outside right? 

Doesn't the speech on Darko with complete certainty get old? Everyone speaking about what he will do has been flat WRONG for about 3 years now. So when?


----------



## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

The ROY said:


> oh yeah, that kid darko has :
> 
> 8pts, 5BLKS, 3rebs & 2asts in 18 min of play tonight so far vs. indiana
> 
> the 4th is about to start


Again, how is this even close to what his hypesters TOLD you us he'd do? And there was no arguing. The same clan that produced classics like "you know Lebron, but you NEED to know Darko" (how bleeping stupid, that would be like an article in 1984 entitled "you know Jordan, buy you NEED to know SAM BOWIE".. because that's about how big the gap is) just won't let it go. Ok so he has good numbers tonight. But you'd have thought that that would be a BAD stat line for him early in his rookie season if you read his hype. Do I need to go back and start bumping threads? Don't act like this guy is like Wesley Duke or someone and his expectations are that of a undrafted player. He was the #2 pick and you got laughed out of a room in 2003 if you suggested even for a moment that Chris Bosh or Dwyane Wade COULD be better players.

Darko is crap and his fans won't let it go. Even if he ends up being "good," good falls way short of what was advertised.


----------



## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

italianBBlover said:


> Sorry guys, but I can't stand anymore all those "Bargnani = Darko/Skita" etc ...
> 
> C'mon, just look the numbers: Skita played just 3 or 4 euroleague games and 5-6 mpg in the italian league with something like 1ppg and 1rpg ... now Bargnani is starting in the Euroleague and the italian league with games like 18/11 or 20/7 etc ...
> 
> ...


But isn't this the same way people talked about Darko? "You're calling Darko a poor man's Rik Smits? God you should only be lucky enough to know of the next great one that is Darko. Bow before all those that know of the holy Darko." 

I think someone said it best when they said that there is no way to tell how a difference in numbers in those leagues translates over here.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Pippenatorade said:


> But isn't this the same way people talked about Darko? "You're calling Darko a poor man's Rik Smits? God you should only be lucky enough to know of the next great one that is Darko. Bow before all those that know of the holy Darko."
> 
> I think someone said it best when they said that there is no way to tell how a difference in numbers in those leagues translates over here.


Regardless of what some guys said, you don't know *italianBBlover's *views on Darko.

Actually, that'd be good to know. From what I can tell, obviously not having seen the games, neither Darko nor Skita really played against high level competition in Europe, and in the few cases they did, they didn't do much.

Bargnani seems much more akin to Gasol to me, both in what the stats say about his game and in the fact that he's seeing real time, at a young age, against good competition. I don't know if he's the real deal or not, but my guess is that he won't be a total bust like Skita just based on those facts alone.


----------



## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

italianBBlover said:


> Sorry guys, but I can't stand anymore all those "Bargnani = Darko/Skita" etc ...
> 
> C'mon, just look the numbers: Skita played just 3 or 4 euroleague games and 5-6 mpg in the italian league with something like 1ppg and 1rpg ... now Bargnani is starting in the Euroleague and the italian league with games like 18/11 or 20/7 etc ...
> 
> ...


 :clap: 

I think when draft day comes this kid will be the hands down number 1 pick unless Gay and Aldridge have huge tourney games. Hopefully the Darko sterotypes continue because he's putting up impressive numbers in the second toughest league in the world. 

For those who have seen him, how is he defensively?


----------



## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

The ROY said:


> NO way they'll only play him 25 min a game next season
> 
> that's just NOT gonna happen


Maybe 30, but only if they're extremely commited to his development, and are willing to live through a lot of mistakes. Dwight Howard is averaging 36 MPG this year, and Darko isn't nearly the player Howard is.


----------



## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Pippenatorade said:


> Again, how is this even close to what his hypesters TOLD you us he'd do? And there was no arguing. The same clan that produced classics like "you know Lebron, but you NEED to know Darko" (how bleeping stupid, that would be like an article in 1984 entitled "you know Jordan, buy you NEED to know SAM BOWIE".. because that's about how big the gap is) just won't let it go. Ok so he has good numbers tonight. But you'd have thought that that would be a BAD stat line for him early in his rookie season if you read his hype. Do I need to go back and start bumping threads? Don't act like this guy is like Wesley Duke or someone and his expectations are that of a undrafted player. He was the #2 pick and you got laughed out of a room in 2003 if you suggested even for a moment that Chris Bosh or Dwyane Wade COULD be better players.
> 
> Darko is crap and his fans won't let it go. Even if he ends up being "good," good falls way short of what was advertised.


I don't consider myself a Darko fan, but it should be noted that there's a lot of room between "crap" and what some people suggested he'd become when drafted. Personally, I think he'll turn out okay - not great, but not a total bust. It's unfair to hold an 18 year old kid responsible for the pre-draft hype that swirls around him.


----------



## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Mikedc said:


> Regardless of what some guys said, you don't know *italianBBlover's *views on Darko.
> 
> Actually, that'd be good to know. From what I can tell, obviously not having seen the games, neither Darko nor Skita really played against high level competition in Europe, and in the few cases they did, they didn't do much.
> 
> Bargnani seems much more akin to Gasol to me, both in what the stats say about his game and in the fact that he's seeing real time, at a young age, against good competition. I don't know if he's the real deal or not, but my guess is that he won't be a total bust like Skita just based on those facts alone.


Yeah sorry Mike. Darko is just one of my red-button issues. Like attacks on Curry, someone supposing that Kobe compairs favorably to MJ, etc. I should probably take a chill pill on this one. 

Bargnani may come to workouts and have NBA GMs calling him the next Dirk based on him whipping up American college players, but my attitude with him is just that. "Show me." I think Morrison has proven too much for someone to suppose that Bargnani is better based on some 10th hand info. If someone wants to post Bargnani playing against ANYONE we've heard of and tell me what they think of his game, I'm all for it.


----------



## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Not me.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Pippenatorade said:


> Again, how is this even close to what his hypesters TOLD you us he'd do? And there was no arguing. The same clan that produced classics like "you know Lebron, but you NEED to know Darko" (how bleeping stupid, that would be like an article in 1984 entitled "you know Jordan, buy you NEED to know SAM BOWIE".. because that's about how big the gap is) just won't let it go. Ok so he has good numbers tonight. But you'd have thought that that would be a BAD stat line for him early in his rookie season if you read his hype. Do I need to go back and start bumping threads? Don't act like this guy is like Wesley Duke or someone and his expectations are that of a undrafted player. He was the #2 pick and you got laughed out of a room in 2003 if you suggested even for a moment that Chris Bosh or Dwyane Wade COULD be better players.
> 
> Darko is crap and his fans won't let it go. Even if he ends up being "good," good falls way short of what was advertised.


honestly..

i don't know WHAT folks were saying about darko the year he was drafted cuz all i paid attenion to was lebron and carmelo..didn't know much about wade, bosh, darko or even kirk at the time..so i never hyped him or was on his 'wagon'

i'm not a darko fan..but it's nice to see him producing after his worldwide basklash...


----------



## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

The ROY said:


> honestly..
> 
> i don't know WHAT folks were saying about darko the year he was drafted cuz all i paid attenion to was lebron and carmelo..didn't know much about wade, bosh, darko or even kirk at the time..so i never hyped him or was on his 'wagon'
> 
> i'm not a darko fan..but it's nice to see him producing after his worldwide basklash...


It was bad. Really bad. Consider that this guy got about 100 times more hype than Kobe. Even KG didn't get 1/10th of the hype, and he was a wiz in his workouts, performing superhuman feets. 

Darko will have to produce like Brand to live up to his billing by his hypesters. Sorry you didn't know. But it was nauseating.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

jbulls said:


> Maybe 30, but only if they're extremely commited to his development, and are willing to live through a lot of mistakes. Dwight Howard is averaging 36 MPG this year, and Darko isn't nearly the player Howard is.


are u watching the orlando games?

u speaking as if he's missing defensive assignments or turning the ball over on a consistent basis..he's doing neither..

he's not NY knicks b-ball iq bad...and he doesn't look LOST on the floor like he did in detriot...

i'm pretty sure they're COMMITED to his development..they gave up a future 1st round pick for him...


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> Bargnani seems much more akin to Gasol to me, both in what the stats say about his game and in the fact that he's seeing real time, at a young age, against good competition.


The Bargnani highlight reel I've seen bears an absolutely uncanny resemblance to the Pau Gasol greatest hits mix TNT played the night he was drafted -- some deep threes, a dribble drive initiated beyond the three-point line that ends with a thunderous dunk, some finesse post moves, some face-up jumpers, a nice block.

I think he's my #1 at the moment. I'm not sold at all on Aldridge, and to get the most out of drafting Morrison or Gay would require making a series of big moves that imo Pax is either unwilling or incapable of doing.

EDIT: Whoops, wait a minute.










That's not that Jalen Rose-esque "I can't hear you" gesture, is it?

Take him off our draft board.


----------



## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> The Bargnani highlight reel I've seen bears an absolutely uncanny resemblance to the Pau Gasol greatest hits mix TNT played the night he was drafted -- some deep threes, a dribble drive initiated beyond the three-point line that ends with a thunderous dunk, some finesse post moves, some face-up jumpers, a nice block.
> 
> I think he's my #1 at the moment. I'm not sold at all on Aldridge, and to get the most out of drafting Morrison or Gay would require making a series of big moves that imo Pax is either unwilling or incapable of doing.


Where can I find this Mr. May? Also.. what about power moves to the post? Does he have any back to the basket game? Do you think he can move any centers by backing them down? Can he mix it up downlow with tougher rebounders on the block?


----------



## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

The ROY said:


> are u watching the orlando games?
> 
> u speaking as if he's missing defensive assignments or turning the ball over on a consistent basis..he's doing neither..
> 
> ...


I've watched him play a couple times since the deal. In my opinion he's not close to being ready to play 35 to 40 MPG, as you've suggested. Not many guys his age are. He's developmentaly way behind guys like Eddy Curry, Channing Frye, Charlie Villanueva and Luol Deng, all players averaging 25 to 32 minutes a night on sub .500 teams. In fact, I believe all of 2 guys from last year's draft class are averaging 35MPG this year - Andre Iguodala and Dwight Howard.

He's put up some okay numbers since coming to Orlando, and I wouldn't bet against him turning into a decent to good NBA player. But projecting those numbers over big minutes is a mistake because a) there's not gaurantee the rates will sustain themselves over more PT, just as Mike Sweetney and b) Darko Milicic is not developed enough to play 35 to 40 minutes on a nightly basis, even in a rebuilding situation like Orlando.


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Here's the highlight package. Keep in mind this is from a single game as far as I can tell.

http://nuno.typepad.com/nbafanblog/2006/03/andrea_bargnani.html

No, he's not the second coming of Bill Russell, but I don't see Aldridge as that, either. I like the fact that Bargnani is playing against solid competition, not the 6-7 guys on the frontlines of Texas Tech and Oklahoma State. It doesn't look like he'll be as solid down low as Gasol, but I like the athleticism and the size and the skills.


----------



## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> Here's the highlight package. Keep in mind this is from a single game as far as I can tell.
> 
> http://nuno.typepad.com/nbafanblog/2006/03/andrea_bargnani.html
> 
> No, he's not the second coming of Bill Russell, but I don't see Aldridge as that, either. I like the fact that Bargnani is playing against solid competition, not the 6-7 guys on the frontlines of Texas Tech and Oklahoma State. It doesn't look like he'll be as solid down low as Gasol, but I like the athleticism and the size and the skills.


He does seem to finish strong, something we could use on the interior. And that step back three is impressive. Still, it's hard to form concrete judgements from stuff like that. I hope he's the real thing. Every time I try and get excited about LaMarcus Aldridge he goes out and drops 5 and 4 on some unranked Big 12 school.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

i'll also posted a bargnani link in the draft thread..a diff one


----------



## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

I'd like to see a couple of his post moves before I annoint him as the best big man option for the Bulls.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

http://rapidshare.de/files/11369647/clip.rm.html

more bargnani


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

ScottMay, You just about have me convinced about this kid! John wants a big man that can shoot the three and take it to the basket. 

As you know, I am not high on aldridge either!


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

http://www.euroleague.net/plantillas/jugador.jsp?id=BWZ

he can shoot. 60%, 47% in threes. 69% in fts. He does not rebound, nor does he pass. He does not steal the ball, he does average 1 block a game. He does take care of the ball. 

Season high 20 pts His first three games he had a total of 1 pt. 

but...

Last 8 games he has averaged right at 15 a game.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Pax seems like more of a Sheldon Williams guy than a Bargnani guy.

Bargnani is going to get beat up his first year in the NBA -more like Dirk than Pau.

I guess Pax and Skiles both like a big man that can shoot. But I think Pax is most likely to trade down ala Hollinger's speculation.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> Pax seems like more of a Sheldon Williams guy than a Bargnani guy.
> 
> Bargnani is going to get beat up his first year in the NBA -more like Dirk than Pau.
> 
> I guess Pax and Skiles both like a big man that can shoot. But I think Pax is most likely to trade down ala Hollinger's speculation.


Trading down out of a Gasol/Dirk type talent for a Carlos Boozer type guy for a solid but unspectacular guy will put me back in the Fire Pax club, I think.


----------



## step (Sep 19, 2005)

Nice clip, good to see them show some of his cons along with some of the pros.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Mikedc said:


> Trading down out of a Gasol/Dirk type talent for a Carlos Boozer type guy for a solid but unspectacular guy will put me back in the Fire Pax club, I think.


yeah..

he's gonna have to roll the dice..

sometimes it's nice to be safe (shelden) but to get ahead in this league YOU HAVE TO GAMBLE (bargnani)


----------



## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Mikedc said:


> Trading down out of a Gasol/Dirk type talent for a Carlos Boozer type guy for a solid but unspectacular guy will put me back in the Fire Pax club, I think.


If the biggest impact guy we get out of this off season is Shelden Williams, sign me up too. The ONLY way we should deal the NY pick is for an impact NBA player. The idea that we're going to strike gold with 3 picks in the 10-20 range is just ridiculous.


----------



## Toxicity (Jul 21, 2004)

Pippenatorade said:


> Yeah sorry Mike. Darko is just one of my red-button issues. Like attacks on Curry, someone supposing that Kobe compairs favorably to MJ, etc. I should probably take a chill pill on this one.
> 
> Bargnani may come to workouts and have NBA GMs calling him the next Dirk based on him whipping up American college players, but my attitude with him is just that. "Show me." *I think Morrison has proven too much* for someone to suppose that Bargnani is better based on some 10th hand info. If someone wants to post Bargnani playing against ANYONE we've heard of and tell me what they think of his game, I'm all for it.


Yeah, Morrison has proven he can play against KIDS... but Bargnani is showing that against MEN (and rulez), that's the difference.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

And let me qualify that by saying I'm not down on Williams at all. I like Williams, as I start to look at the draft in detail, I think I might even like him straight up over Aldridge. I'd be happy to get them both and go home. I don't know that Pax wants two rookie bigs, but I think that'd be a perfectly valid strategy. While it'd make things hardest in the short-run (also because it'd make attracting quality FA bigs more difficult), I think it may well be the best in the long-run. At least on my first cut, I think I'd rather have Bargnani and Williams in two years than one of those guys and Harrington or Gooden.

Thing is, there's no way we're going to sign a couple FAs we expect to play and keep both picks... that'd make for 11 or 12 guys we'd be expecting to be in the rotation, and that's too many. At some point we need to make some sort of trade.


----------



## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Mikedc said:


> And let me qualify that by saying I'm not down on Williams at all. I like Williams, as I start to look at the draft in detail, I think I might even like him straight up over Aldridge. I'd be happy to get them both and go home. I don't know that Pax wants two rookie bigs, but I think that'd be a perfectly valid strategy. While it'd make things hardest in the short-run (also because it'd make attracting quality FA bigs more difficult), I think it may well be the best in the long-run. At least on my first cut, I think I'd rather have Bargnani and Williams in two years than one of those guys and Harrington or Gooden.
> 
> Thing is, there's no way we're going to sign a couple FAs we expect to play and keep both picks... that'd make for 11 or 12 guys we'd be expecting to be in the rotation, and that's too many. At some point we need to make some sort of trade.


I'm not down on Williams either. Who knows, maybe he'll have a great tournament and wind up in the 5-7 range in the draft. As of now, he's in the late lottery. With a bunch of cap space and a pick that's all but gauranteed to be in the top 5 of the draft, I think we ought to have our sights set a little higher.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

jbulls said:


> I think we ought to have our sights set a little higher.


Agreed..

I'm a big Shelden fan but he doesn't have much upside at all.


----------



## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

Pippenatorade, I rate you as a very reasonable poster from everything else I've seen, but I just don't understand why you're ignoring the FACTS on Bargnani. I'll try and spell it out as plainly as possible:

Skita came over here, as a benchwarmer in the Euroleague (1ppg, 1rpg were the numbers quoted earlier in the thread) and in workouts GM were all "Wow! He's 7-foot and he can shoot!" *IN WORKOUTS* He didn't do anything on a Euroleague court.

Bargnani is succeeding in the Euroleague, the second best league in the world, against men, much like Gasol and Nowitzki (albeit with Nowitzki in the German league). He's playing against better players than the NCAA, let me assure you. If you can't see the difference between him and Skita, I don't know what to tell you. 90% of the guys that have wiped the floor with Team USA at the past major tournaments, that's who he's playing against.

(As an aside, Darko is an anomaly. He *WAS* producing, like the aforementioned couple of players, in the Serbian league, and merely got buried on the bench in the NBA. Right now, he's essentially a 20-year old rookie putting up 8ppg, 6rpg and 2bpg. You'll see the light on him one day, I promise you that much. I'm probably the biggest Andrew Bogut fan on the planet, and I'd take Darko over him without a second thought)

P.S. Sorry for any condescending tone, but I just tried to keep it simple.


----------



## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

> I think Morrison has proven too much for someone to suppose that Bargnani is better based on some 10th hand info. If someone wants to post Bargnani playing against ANYONE we've heard of and tell me what they think of his game, I'm all for it.


If a tree collapses in a forest and no one is there to hear it does it make a noise?

Did that kind of logic allow Traylor to be picked a head of Dirk, or gulp Tyson ahead of Gasol. For the most part euros are overrated and go bust, but how many of them were considered top 3 picks? You have to take a look at this kid. As for playing against anyone we've heard of, HE'S PLAYING AGAINST BETTER COMPETITION THAN ANYONE YOU'VE SEEN. Pro ball in europe is much better competition than NCAA hoops, it is largely composed of guys who were NCAA stars and didn't make it to the NBA.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

There's a possibilty that Tyler Hansborough may declare

would anyone take him with OUR pick?


----------



## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

Greg Ostertag! said:


> Pippenatorade, I rate you as a very reasonable poster from everything else I've seen, but I just don't understand why you're ignoring the FACTS on Bargnani. I'll try and spell it out as plainly as possible:
> 
> Skita came over here, as a benchwarmer in the Euroleague (1ppg, 1rpg were the numbers quoted earlier in the thread) and in workouts GM were all "Wow! He's 7-foot and he can shoot!" *IN WORKOUTS* He didn't do anything on a Euroleague court.
> 
> ...


No you're right... Scott "may" be turning me around on this one.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Anyway, I'm not at all sure about Morrison. The thing that really bothers me is that he doesn't do anythig but score. He reminds me more of Dennis Scott than Larry Bird.


----------



## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

With NY pick, I will be happy with Bargani. I won't be enthusiastic about them but I can live with Aldridge or Morrison. I will be pissed if we end up with Gay or Reddick. SO far I haven't seen anything special in Gay's game. At all. And we all know about Reddick and his prospect NBA career and concern about it.


----------



## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Mikedc said:


> Anyway, I'm not at all sure about Morrison. The thing that really bothers me is that he doesn't do anythig but score. He reminds me more of Dennis Scott than Larry Bird.


It is a concern because of potential defensive liabilities. But Dennis Scott was, and remained, an unathletic spot up shooter. Morrison can score in many different ways from all over the court. 

I'm not sold on him (I think Gay is a better fit), but I'm not worried about him either. He's going to be a good pro, I think.


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Pippenatorade said:


> Don't the presupposing assertions about Darko ever get old? I mean there was "no way" he wasn't going to reinvent how europeans are viewed in the NBA either right? There was "no way" he wasn't going to show that he was not only a good #2 pick, but one of the great ones right? There was "no way" that more than a few players could guard him both inside and outside right?
> 
> Doesn't the speech on Darko with complete certainty get old? Everyone speaking about what he will do has been flat WRONG for about 3 years now. So when?


I hate to say this....but.....


Pot....meet kettle.


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Pippenatorade said:


> If someone wants to post Bargnani playing against ANYONE we've heard of and tell me what they think of his game, I'm all for it.


This of course, presupposes that the "ANYONE" we've heard of has game enough to be a good player in the league to begin with.


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

jbulls said:


> He does seem to finish strong, something we could use on the interior. And that step back three is impressive. Still, it's hard to form concrete judgements from stuff like that. I hope he's the real thing. Every time I try and get excited about LaMarcus Aldridge he goes out and drops 5 and 4 on some unranked Big 12 school.


Aint that the damn truth...


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> Trading down out of a Gasol/Dirk type talent for a Carlos Boozer type guy for a solid but unspectacular guy will put me back in the Fire Pax club, I think.


:laugh:

The mere suggestion of it has me reaching for the sign me up button.....


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

The ROY said:


> There's a possibilty that Tyler Hansborough may declare
> 
> would anyone take him with OUR pick?


He's not going to declare...even though its probably in his best interest to do so THIS year.

And the answer is, unequivocally, YES.

However....he won't BE there with our pick.

If Hansbrough declares, theres no way he falls past 10th.


----------



## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> Anyway, I'm not at all sure about Morrison. The thing that really bothers me is that he doesn't do anythig but score. He reminds me more of Dennis Scott than Larry Bird.


I've always thought that maybe Glen Rice would be a decent comparison, not sure though. I like Adam Morrison, but sometimes, I have to wonder if his persona, which seems to be his biggest attribute, (the 'it' factor) has sort of taken on a life of its own and preceeded him a bit.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

rosenthall said:


> I've always thought that maybe Glen Rice would be a decent comparison, not sure though. I like Adam Morrison, but sometimes, I have to wonder if his persona, which seems to be his biggest attribute, (the 'it' factor) has sort of taken on a life of its own and preceeded him a bit.


I think Rice is another good comparison, probably better than Scott, who was still mostly a spot up shooter in college as Ron Cey points out. But I'm not sure he'll be able to score from anywhere in the pros the way he does in college.

Still, I agree that the persona thing seems really inflated. But what kid of "it" is it? It seems like a Ben Gordon "I can score any time I choose" sort of thing to me, rather than an "I'm an all-around ***-kicker as a player" sort of thing.

* He's marginally athletic and not a very good defender. Defensively he doesn't have very quick hands and he really doesn't have very quick feet.
* He's shown nothing in terms of distributing the ball (which, when you cosider the way teams gear up to stop him, should be very telling).
* He's not a good rebounder
* For someone who's as good a shooter and scorer as he is, he's just an average free throw shooter.

All of that stuff bothers me. I generally think he's crafty enough that he'll be able to score in the pros without beating many guys off the dribble, but I don't really get the reputation he's got as a super smart player who does all the little things. As far as I can tell, he does none of the little things and just scores.


----------



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

interesting little nugget in *ric bucher's* espn chat today:

_Impossible to tell how the draft will go down until the draft lottery. Anyone telling you otherwise is pretending. From the preliminary reports I've received, there are no difference-makers in this draft. There's always talk about trading the first pick, but this could be the first time it actually happens. *In any case, I hear Boston llloovvvves Adam Morrison. Enough so that the chance to get him would be the only enticement to moving Paul Pierce. *_




http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=11090


----------



## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

The Krakken said:


> He's not going to declare...even though its probably in his best interest to do so THIS year.
> 
> If Hansbrough declares, theres no way he falls past 10th.


I disagree, he could be top 10, but I would say it's far from a lock(competition- Splitter, Williams, Bargnani, Aldridge, Thomas, Roberts, O'Bryant, Gray). I would say he's a lock for the top 20 but that's as far as I would go, a lot depends on who enters. Whether or not he will declare I have no idea, but from what I've heard, he will (announcers). It is probably in his best interest, because his size will always be an issue(6'9", not a great wingspan) and not many guys have ever had this good of a freshman season(best since Melo).


----------



## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Mikedc said:


> I think Rice is another good comparison, probably better than Scott, who was still mostly a spot up shooter in college as Ron Cey points out. But I'm not sure he'll be able to score from anywhere in the pros the way he does in college.
> 
> Still, I agree that the persona thing seems really inflated. But what kid of "it" is it? It seems like a Ben Gordon "I can score any time I choose" sort of thing to me, rather than an "I'm an all-around ***-kicker as a player" sort of thing.


Glen Rice is actually a really good comparison IMO. Rice looked almost omnipotent on offense in college at times. Glenn Robinson might also be a decent comparison - there was NO stopping him as a scorer when he was at Purdue (he averaged 30ppg) and he did it from wherever he wanted. And neither of those guys were elite athletes either, though I'd probably give them an edge over Morrison at that age.

However...



> * He's shown nothing in terms of distributing the ball (which, when you cosider the way teams gear up to stop him, should be very telling).


This I disagree with, though it's admittedly on sample of about 3 games. Morrison definitely looks for his own shot first, second, and fifth, but I've seen him make some feeds that convinced me that his court vision is above average at worst. He's selfish in a good (super-confident) way, from what I can tell. He wants the ball, he clearly thinks he's the one who has the best chance to score on any given possession, but he'll make the pass without hesitation if it'll lead to an easy basket. I haven't seen him force much on offense. In this sense, he seems more well-rounded than Rice and Big Dog did in college. I think, if he came onto an NBA team that didn't need him to carry an excessive scoring load, he'd be able to fit into the team system without a hitch. Just my hunch, though.


----------



## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

mizenkay said:


> interesting little nugget in *ric bucher's* espn chat today:
> 
> *In any case, I hear Boston llloovvvves Adam Morrison. Enough so that the chance to get him would be the only enticement to moving Paul Pierce. *[/i]]


 Hope that's true, our cap and Morrison(if we can get him, very realistic) for Pierce, sign me up. Hell I throw in Nocioni as well(and maybe force Sweets in there to have a little cap left over), we wouldn't need him that much if we had PP.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> interesting little nugget in *ric bucher's* espn chat today:
> 
> _Impossible to tell how the draft will go down until the draft lottery. Anyone telling you otherwise is pretending. From the preliminary reports I've received, there are no difference-makers in this draft. There's always talk about trading the first pick, but this could be the first time it actually happens. *In any case, I hear Boston llloovvvves Adam Morrison. Enough so that the chance to get him would be the only enticement to moving Paul Pierce. *_
> 
> http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=11090


LOL, sold! Danny Ainge: "Demographics win championships!"


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> interesting little nugget in *ric bucher's* espn chat today:
> 
> _Impossible to tell how the draft will go down until the draft lottery. Anyone telling you otherwise is pretending. From the preliminary reports I've received, there are no difference-makers in this draft. There's always talk about trading the first pick, but this could be the first time it actually happens. *In any case, I hear Boston llloovvvves Adam Morrison. Enough so that the chance to get him would be the only enticement to moving Paul Pierce. *_
> 
> http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=11090


Charlotte could be a fly in the ointment -- Rick Bonnell thinks they like Morrison a lot, too.


----------



## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

Morrison's stock will be overrated, because he's white and GOOD white guys sell. Yeah I said it.


----------



## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> Charlotte could be a fly in the ointment -- Rick Bonnell thinks they like Morrison a lot, too.


They should like him. He's an absolute perfect fit in Charlotte. I would think that if they get the top pick, he's as good as gone.


----------



## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Ron Cey said:


> They should like him. He's an absolute perfect fit in Charlotte. I would think that if they get the top pick, he's as good as gone.


He'd be a fantastic pick for them. A line up of Raymond Felton (who I didn't like coming out of college, but now think is going to be a really good NBA point), Gerald Wallace (great defender, big time athleticism, shooting deficiencies nullified by the addition of Morrison), Adam Morrison, a healthy Emeka Okafor and Primo Brezec could be pretty good...May, Ely, and Knight are good rotation players. I could see that team winning 35 games next year with a chance to get a whole lot better...


----------



## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Mikedc said:


> I think Rice is another good comparison, probably better than Scott, who was still mostly a spot up shooter in college as Ron Cey points out. But I'm not sure he'll be able to score from anywhere in the pros the way he does in college.
> 
> Still, I agree that the persona thing seems really inflated. But what kid of "it" is it? It seems like a Ben Gordon "I can score any time I choose" sort of thing to me, rather than an "I'm an all-around ***-kicker as a player" sort of thing.
> 
> ...


Good points.

The Gordon comparison is interesting, but I don't totally buy it. Gordon and Morrison almost seem like opposites to me in the sense that Ben can put up 20 without anybody noticing, and fall asleep for stretches of time out there. Morrison brings it every single time down the court. The lapses are much less of an issue for Ben now, to his credit and probably Skiles', but in college he had some really quiet 20 point games.

It's hard to evaluate Morrison because he's playing in a system where they literally give him the ball every time down the court and tell him to shoot it. It's impressive that he can still get off shots and make them at a good clip, because everybody in the building knows it and he gets swarmed constantly. I'm not sure how these skills are going to translate to a more structured offense. I think he's a better passer than the assist totals reflect, I think he'll be an okay to slightly sub par rebounder. Quickness is the big issue. On offense I think he can work with it. Defensively, who knows?


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

jbulls said:


> He'd be a fantastic pick for them. A line up of Raymond Felton (who I didn't like coming out of college, but now think is going to be a really good NBA point), Gerald Wallace (great defender, big time athleticism, shooting deficiencies nullified by the addition of Morrison), Adam Morrison, a healthy Emeka Okafor and Primo Brezec could be pretty good...May, Ely, and Knight are good rotation players. I could see that team winning 35 games next year with a chance to get a whole lot better...


on paper...damn that's a nice lineup

C Brezec
F Okafor
F Morrison
G Wallace
G Felton

They'd be in the playoffs by 2008


----------

