# Official Miami @ Chicago. Friday Dec. 3 7:30pm cst. WGN NBALP



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

*official Miami @ Chicago. 7:30pm cst. WGN NBALP*

miami is 10-6 but are 4-3 on the road. Losses to SA, Detroit and Minny. Detroit loss was last Friday. Was that team depleted?

A challenge. We need a winning streak in the worse way. But this game will be a hard one. 

Oneal and Haslem are averaging almost 22 rebounds between them. Chandler and Curry? 15. Their entire starting five average in double figures. They have a nice bench as well. So this game will not be easy. 

That being said, we played Sacremento hard and lost by just 7 on their hme court. We played the Lakers hard and lost and then played them at home and played a complete game for once! We will need a similar game, again. 

Miami is not the defensive force that championship teams are made of. They allow over 96 pts a game so we should be able to score on them. The key s not allow them to score their average of 98. 

Anyone notice that our defense as a team is slowly improving? We were allowing 102 pts a game. Now we have it down to 99. We score only 90.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

*Re: official Miami @ Chicago. 7:30pm cst. WGN NBALP*



> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> But this game will be a hard on.


hmmm. . .


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

*Re: Re: official Miami @ Chicago. 7:30pm cst. WGN NBALP*



> Originally posted by <b>such sweet thunder</b>!
> 
> 
> hmmm. . .


 oops dang keyboard.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: official Miami @ Chicago. 7:30pm cst. WGN NBALP*



> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> oops dang keyboard.


please don't read through my posts for typos -- i'm sure there are many. i just thought the resulting sentence was too funny to let slide.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

bump. It's on HD!


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Natalie Portman is mint. I haven't been this happy with Spongy's avatar since it used to be Jeff Garcia's beard.

If the Bulls don't get into a double-teaming dither and just let Wade and Shaq go out and get 30 apiece, they win 98-91. 

If they double-team those guys everytime they touch the ball, they are still going to get close to 30 each, except that Eddie Jones and Rasual Butler and Haslem and Damon Jones will also have big games as well, and we'll lose by 15.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Heat 102

Bulls 92


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## bryzzz01 (Feb 21, 2003)

ummm dont bother turning on the TV unless u are prepared for 3 hrs of... "why am i a bulls fan"


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## Ice Nine (Apr 3, 2004)

Wednesday felt like a turning point, so:

Bulls - 104
Heat - 101


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

FWIW,

The Bulls haven't had a 3 game win streak since Pax took over. We have a chance to have a 2 game win streak if we win tonight.

I will be rooting for a win, and then the chance to go for 3 in a row.

3 in a row, and I'll actually be warming up to this team's ability to play pro basketball.


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## CrossOver (May 19, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bryzzz01</b>!
> ummm dont bother turning on the TV unless u are prepared for 3 hrs of... "why am i a bulls fan"


I wouldn't be so quick to concede defeat. Miami has been playing pretty bad as of late. Defensively, it just doesn't seem that we have had enough time as a team to get back to the basics and practice "blitzing." Blitzing is Miami's term for the way they rotate on D. 

Another extremely sore subject with me is the play of our 2 and 3. It has been abysmal. Eddie Jones should be having an easier time but he has been horrific all season long missing wide open, I mean wiiiiiidddddeeee open jumpers. Eddie's only saving grace is his defense has been acceptable. 

Rasual Butler while starting off great has cooled down considerably and has been relegated to the bench. I believe Wes Person will be starting for the second game in a row but he will give way to Shandon Anderson pretty quickly if things get out of hand of the defensive end. 

All in all, the role players who were expected to produce at least marginally have been pretty bad with the exceptions being Udonis Haslem and to a lesser extent Damon Jones.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

We need to play this zone. Tyson needs to use his long arms to not allow the ball into the post for Shaq. Chandler takes the other wing if its passed to a player out there, or in the corner. That would leave Curry in a 1-1 with Shaq which isn't that bad. We need to do what other teams do to us if we go to a regular defense which is swarm shaq when he gets the ball, that mean wing guard, center, and point guard are all defending/going for the ball on shaq. If Wade drives, Noci has to draw the charge. We need to shift and be very active on defense to win the game.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

I think we will win.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

LOL, Dwyane Wade gets a bigger cheer from the crowd during starting lineups then any Bull. Every other Heat get booed 

Antonio Davis
Luol Deng
Eddy Curry
Chris Duhon 
Kirk Hinrich


How can people say he is an awful defensive center and couldn't guard a fly when he is one of 3 centers (yao, and miller) that can contain Shaq by himself.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Antonio Davis blocked Dwyane Wade !!!!!


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Curry makes a nice hook shot over Shaq!


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Skiles gets a technical.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Hinrich has made a couple of nice dishes to Eddy in the post tonight. I like that we're running the offense through him early, though he's missed a couple of chances. Keep giving it to him though.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Luol Deng makes the lay in and draws a foul on Shaq.

2 fouls on Shaq 7 and 1/2 minutes left in the first.

Good job Eddy/Luol, a job well done on getting Shaq out of the game early.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> Luol Deng makes the lay in and draws a foul on Shaq.
> 
> 2 fouls on Shaq 7 and 1/2 minutes left in the first.
> ...


Damn! Nice dish by Duhon to Kirk for the three. Duhon's court vision tonight has been great. He's have another dime if Eddy would have seen that pass coming in the post.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jnrjr79</b>!
> 
> 
> Damn! Nice dish by Duhon to Kirk for the three. Duhon's court vision tonight has been great. He's have another dime if Eddy would have seen that pass coming in the post.


Duhon is playing very well so far. Has three rebounds.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

The Bulls are slowly starting to play more and more like the playoff team they are.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Haslem 2 
Shaq 2
Doleac 2

The Bulls are getting all the heat bigmen in foul trouble.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> The Bulls are slowly starting to play more and more like the playoff team they are.


??


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## OziBull (Nov 7, 2004)

updates? hows gordon goin


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

24-21 Heat after 1. 

36% is not good. 

Gordon hits a two to start the 2nd quarter


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Jones is killing us with threes. He was shooting just 28% in threes before tonight.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

coach k and the blue devils in the house tonight ..playing sat @ the uc.

duhon playing inspired...hmmmm. 

heat's color guy used to coach @ mt.vernon high - alma mater of ben gordon. 

coincidences abound. 

got the sunshine network feed tonight. 

uh oh. laetner (dukie) just poked eddy...in the eye.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Shaq and Wade have a combined 7 points, 3 turnovers and 3 fouls.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Christian Laettner has apparently defied time and space and traveled back to Durham, NC circa 1992.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Nocioni is just umm bad. He is not what I expected, and I am very dissapointed with him.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Anyone notice who's sitting on the bench during this Heat run?


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> Christian Laettner has apparently defied time and space and traveled back to Durham, NC circa 1992.



:laugh: :laugh:


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> Anyone notice who's sitting on the bench during this Heat run?


Eddy Curry


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> 
> 
> Eddy Curry


I hope the eye is ok. I really don't like this Harrington on Shaq business.


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> Anyone notice who's sitting on the bench during this Heat run?


lol WADE...


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

notice something? Hinrich, Duhon, Deng and Gordon can play well for us, but if both Chandler and Curry do not play well all game long, we do not stand a chance. 

Chandler and Curry 2-7 4 rebounds. 6 pt.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Harrington and Gordon giving us some good minutes off of the bench.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

That Hinrich block of Shaq was suh-weet.


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## OziBull (Nov 7, 2004)

On courtside live it said deng just had a followup dunk? was it good


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Kirk is having a very good first half! I am glad to see that.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Good thing Hinrich is so tragically overrated.


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## Chicago N VA (Oct 31, 2003)

Good half by the Bulls and Hinrich!!! :rbanana:


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

53-50 Heat at HT. 

Hinrich 17 pts
Gordon 8 
Deng 7 
Harrington 6
Duhon 3...4 rebounds...3 asssts...

We have only 6 t/o the first half. 

We are shooting 44%.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> Good thing Hinrich is so tragically overrated.


but can he do it consistently


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> Good thing Hinrich is so tragically overrated.


I hear ya.


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## OziBull (Nov 7, 2004)

Good but Risky coaching by skiles! leaving both curry and chandler on the bench for alot of that quarter. Look for a big half by the towers! Gordon and Hinrich although not watching the game looks like they are actually playing well together! Wat was dengs followup dunk like?


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>OziBull</b>!
> On courtside live it said deng just had a followup dunk? was it good


YES! it came out of nowhere. he has the werewithal to followup a missed layup by kirk. amazing play. timing was perfect. he has a knack of putting the ball in the basket.

Kirk is having a nice game and since Eddy is out, he's not slowed down to feed him the ball. Kirk is hot and should keep on shooting. he was aware of the clock and tried to get a 2 for 1. and he made it.


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## DaBullz4Sho (Oct 12, 2002)

hinrich's layup bounced off the front of the iron and deng ran in down the middle of the lane and stuffed it back down with 2 hands, very nice


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## OziBull (Nov 7, 2004)

thats awsome, i dont want deng, gordon or hinrich to be traded for a long time! they are keepers!
Does anyone know where i can get bulls video clips on the net from like highlights of their games etc?


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## Future (Jul 24, 2002)

Nocioni freakin sucks, I hope he doesn't play at all next half.... and I especially hope Skiles doesn't put the Bulls in a zone again. I found it extremely moronic that the Bulls were in a zone while Shaq wasn't even in the game.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

geez. shootaround and everyone's missing.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> 
> 
> but can he do it consistently


Coming from the most blindly supportive person of Eddy on the board, this seems more than a tad hypocritical.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

This has to be Duhons best all around game.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jnrjr79</b>!
> 
> 
> Coming from the most blindly supportive person of Eddy on the board, this seems more than a tad hypocritical.


No I was mocking the people who did that after everytime Crawford had a good game last year.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

This is some BS. though Gordon fouled before. the ref called it way after the buzzer.:upset:

Hinrich needs to shoot!!

They need to set some screens for him.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> 
> 
> but can he do it consistently


Special first half, very indifferent second half


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Skiles is one awful coach. Shaq sat down with 3 mins. left in the 3rd qtr. 6 mins. have passed since then and we can' t buy a bucket....BUT HE STILL REFUSES to put CURRY in!! Even a blind can see we can't shoot worth a sh*t so its time to take advantage of Miami's soft middle of Laettner and Doleac.

Anyway, it is a BLOWOUT now. Somebody should've told Kirk there's also a 2nd half. Scoreless so far.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> Skiles is one awful coach. Shaq sat down with 3 mins. left in the 3rd qtr. 6 mins. have passed since then and we can' t buy a bucket....BUT HE STILL REFUSES to put CURRY in!! Even a blind can see we can't shoot worth a sh*t so its time to take advantage of Miami's soft middle of Laettner and Doleac.
> 
> Anyway, it is a BLOWOUT now. Somebody should've told Kirk there's also a 2nd half. Scoreless so far.


Has he been in at all since hurting his eye?


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

What’s Skiles doing


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> Skiles is one awful coach. Shaq sat down with 3 mins. left in the 3rd qtr. 6 mins. have passed since then and we can' t buy a bucket....BUT HE STILL REFUSES to put CURRY in!! Even a blind can see we can't shoot worth a sh*t so its time to take advantage of Miami's soft middle of Laettner and Doleac.
> 
> Anyway, it is a BLOWOUT now. Somebody should've told Kirk there's also a 2nd half. Scoreless so far.


exactly. and going to the zone against an all perimeter team, with no Shaq in the game, just shows that he doesnt know the first thing about adjustments


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> Skiles is one awful coach. Shaq sat down with 3 mins. left in the 3rd qtr. 6 mins. have passed since then and we can' t buy a bucket....BUT HE STILL REFUSES to put CURRY in!! Even a blind can see we can't shoot worth a sh*t so its time to take advantage of Miami's soft middle of Laettner and Doleac.
> 
> Anyway, it is a BLOWOUT now. Somebody should've told Kirk there's also a 2nd half. Scoreless so far.


Skiles IS an awful coach, but this is a ridiculous nit to pick with him.

Did you see what Curry was doing when he was in the game? He was clueless tonight -- one of those many games where he just didn't bother to show up. Laettner, Doleac, hell, Bob McAdoo -- they'd all tear Eddy a new one tonight.

I know it'll be tough for Paxson to go more than 24 consecutive hours without issuing some sort of statement about how terrible Curry and Chandler are, but he needs to do just that and go out and trade one of the two (preferably Curry) and get back good young players who can win us ballgames. Curry can't do that. He is a big liability on nights he cares and a massive, stinking, horrible liability on the many nights that he doesn't.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bulls96</b>!
> What’s Skiles doing


He must be sending a message again. Gross.

We're down by 13, and none of our top 5 scorers are in the game with 7 minutes left. Nice, Scott.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> He must be sending a message again. Gross.
> ...


As shinky said, "Losing the right way"


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## Bolts (Nov 7, 2003)

why has Hinrich only shot twice in the 2nd half? His fault, the d's fault or the coacH???


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bolts</b>!
> why has Hinrich only shot twice in the 2nd half? His fault, the d's fault or the coacH???


He just looks totally indifferent. He plays with such energy, but in the second half, he just looked bored. I didnt see Miami change up on him or anything


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Nice tail for Pip tonight. WOW!


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> Nice tail for Pip tonight. WOW!



Oh, you better believe it. lol Nice!!!


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBulls2315</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, you better believe it. lol Nice!!!


She looked a little like Kobe's wife. 

Wait...maybe she WAS Kobe's wife. :yes:


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

heat announcers said that's Pip's wife


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Interesting, Laettner, who is universally hated by just about everyone who has played with him (sans some Dukies and JR Rider) getting hugs from everyone of his teammates.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Laettner with 23 points - that says it all...


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> She looked a little like Kobe's wife.
> ...


lol That's weird. I was thinking the same thing when I saw her. 

Scottie has done good for himself..._very_ good.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBulls2315</b>!
> 
> 
> lol That's weird. I was thinking the same thing when I saw her.
> ...


and I believe that is the same woman he threatened with a gun.


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

The Bulls could probably would not have won but they would have made it closer IF hinrich STOPPED passing inside to Tyson. He's NOT duncan, garnett. even Curry would have done 10x better than him.

Shot selection was terrible in the second half. Hinrich not taking ANY shots in the second half was the dumbest thing I've ever seen. especially since he was so hot. One and done was the name of the game the second half. 

Tyson has no business posting up. Maybe Tyson talked with Tyson before the game "hey yo Kirk, can you pass me the ball and setup some plays for me?"


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> The Bulls could probably would not have won but they would have made it closer IF hinrich STOPPED passing inside to Tyson. He's NOT duncan, garnett. even Curry would have done 10x better than him.
> 
> Shot selection was terrible in the second half. Hinrich not taking ANY shots in the second half was the dumbest thing I've ever seen. especially since he was so hot. One and done was the name of the game the second half.
> ...




Tell me about it. What the **** does he call this "post up"..."move" of his? He backs down the defender, turns to the middle, and literally just throws the ball over his shoulder to the basket. Not a hook, not a shot, just an ugly heave. How many times did he do that tonite? He looks like a girl who's never played basketball shooting like that. Pathetic. His stroke on his jumper looks better, but that heave has got to go.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> and I believe that is the same woman he threatened with a gun.


Ugh.


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## remlover (Jan 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spongyfungy</b>!
> 
> Tyson has no business posting up. "


My eyes hurt watching Tyson posting up. It's like watching Frankenstein play basketball.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBulls2315</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


http://www.basketballboards.net/for...readid=16122&highlight=chandler+uncoordinated

:yes:


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## remlover (Jan 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBulls2315</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well said. You would think in his 4th NBA season he would come up w/ a better post move then that.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>remlover</b>!
> 
> 
> Well said. You would think in his 4th NBA season he would come up w/ a better post move then that.


You would think that an NBA franchise that put so many of its eggs in Tyson's basket would have given Tyson better post-play teachers than the likes of Bill Cartwright, Bill Wennington, and Pete Myers.

I'm not letting Tyson off the hook -- he's an abomination -- but the really irritating thing about seeing Eddy and Tyson go is the knowledge that the Bulls didn't even come close to doing all they could for them in terms of coaching.


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## remlover (Jan 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> You would think that an NBA franchise that put so many of its eggs in Tyson's basket would have given Tyson better post-play teachers than the likes of Bill Cartwright, Bill Wennington, and Pete Myers.
> ...


Seemed like the Bulls were begging Curry to work out at the Berto Center w/ the bulls coaches last summer while Eddy thought Hoops was a better place for him.

As for tyson, who knows, when i played bball, my coaches tried to teach me things and i never able to do the th ings they taught me. Chandler is probably just not coordinated to do a simple array of post moves. 

I think it should be obvious to anyone that watches Tyson that he is nothing more then a 7'1 version of Jerome "JYD" williams. He will hustle and go for balls and get a lot of garbage points, but he isnt someone where you can depend on him for anything consistent. 

As for Eddy...hell Eddy deserves his own message board to disect him.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> You would think that an NBA franchise that put so many of its eggs in Tyson's basket would have given Tyson better post-play teachers than the likes of Bill Cartwright, Bill Wennington, and Pete Myers.
> ...


That's one hell of a presumption...and a biased one at that. Both Chandler and Curry have been to Big Man's camp at the team's request. And what's so bad about being tutored by Cartwright, Wennington, Purdue, and AD?

Face it: Chandler may be tall and athletic but he very little pure basketball skill. This was the first summer that he spent almost the entire time in Chicago. Unfortunately most of that time had to be devoted to rehabbing his injured back that may not have been injured in the first place if he'd stuck to his training regimen during the summer of '03. And Curry's a lazy bum who passed up offer after offer from management to work on his post skills at Berto in favor of playing no-D pick-up games at Rucker and Hoops summer after summer.

I'd also love to know how it's the ballclub's fault when these guys are asked to spend the offseason in Chicago and choose to do other things. They have no contractual power over these guys during the summer. But somehow you still believe its the ballclub's fault. God forbid these spoiled children ever be held accountable for their own performance and development.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!God forbid these spoiled children ever be held accountable for their own performance and development.


God forbid our GM is ever held accountable for his team's performance.

Who gets blamed next year?


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> That's one hell of a presumption...and a biased one at that. Both Chandler and Curry have been to Big Man's camp at the team's request. And what's so bad about being tutored by Cartwright, Wennington, Purdue, and AD?
> ...


Was it your knee jerking that kept you from reading the "I'm not letting Tyson off the hook" portion of my post? Christ . . .

It's a two-way street. I'm not absolving the kids, but if you honestly think that Bill Cartwright and Bill Wennington and Will Perdue and Antonio Davis (?) are the best teachers out there of GREAT POST-UP PLAY and how to be an effective two-way big man, well, then you are most definitely getting the basketball team you deserve.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> That's one hell of a presumption...and a biased one at that. Both Chandler and Curry have been to Big Man's camp at the team's request. And what's so bad about being tutored by Cartwright, Wennington, Purdue, and AD?
> ...



And the sad thing is... this team seemingly only has a chance to win when the towers play well.

The other guys can have good games... and it does not seem to really matter.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> God forbid our GM is ever held accountable for his team's performance.
> ...


Vince Carter?

Certainly not Hinrich.

Good question. There is not obvious "scapegoat of the year" next season at this point.

Perhaps Paxson?


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> Was it your knee jerking that kept you from reading the "I'm not letting Tyson off the hook" portion of my post? Christ . . .
> ...


Make a recommendation.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> And the sad thing is... this team seemingly only has a chance to win when the towers play well.
> 
> The other guys can have good games... and it does not seem to really matter.


Agreed. We can't win consistently without some kind of productivity out of the two power slots. Chandler and Curry have yet to provide any kind of consistency. Nor have they shown a reasonable degree of developmental improvement. They are what they are, and that ain't good enough to turn this team into a winner. Time to cut bait and move on.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> Agreed. We can't win consistently without some kind of productivity out of the two power slots. Chandler and Curry have yet to provide any kind of consistency. Nor have they shown a reasonable degree of developmental improvement. They are what they are, and that ain't good enough to turn this team into a winner. Time to cut bait and move on.


I guess. I remember being at the UC a couple years back and Curry really took it to Shaq and the Bulls won an exciting game.

http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=2002&b=20030311&tm=Chi

Granted, we had a couple of productive NBA veterans on the team as well.

Its a shame that the Bulls can't develop talent. Or maybe the towers just are not good. We'll see on the next team.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> Make a recommendation.


Clifford Ray 
Jack Sikma 
Bob Lanier 
Robert Parish 
Darryl Dawkins (don't laugh, think about it) 

That's just off the top of my head. Any and all of them could have been lured to the Chicago bench with a nice compensation package.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

teams have tried bringing the types of people like kareem abdul jabbar before , i have never seen any of the guys abdul-jabbar seem to teach get any better, (his stops in philly and clipperland)

i did see tyson and curry show some pretty good improvement while cartwright was in chi-town.

all time greats dont always make the best teachers, but if this is any indication they need a big man coach really quick , i thought bob thorton was that guy but i checked their site and he's not there anymore.

whoever replaced him obviously flat out sucks ...if they replaced him.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> 
> 
> I guess. I remember being at the UC a couple years back and Curry really took it to Shaq and the Bulls won an exciting game.
> ...


It no longer matters _why_ they aren't productive. They just aren't and thats all there is to it.

You can point your fingers at a hundred different reasons why, including a strategy that led the club to select two high school players with the second and fourth picks of the same draft. Its no longer important to figure out what went wrong. What's more important is to figure out where the team goes from here.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> teams have tried bringing the types of people like kareem abdul jabbar before , i have never seen any of the guys abdul-jabbar seem to teach get any better, (his stops in philly and clipperland)


Did I say anything about an all-time great? And let me get this straight -- just because Abdul-Jabbar has failed in teaching big men, that means all gifted big men can't teach? I guess Bill Russell and Paul Silas better turn in their coaching credentials.

Cartwright did a creditable job with the bigs insofar as he understood their plight and occasionally ran a play that'd give them the ball in their comfort zone. But in terms of teaching moves and how to block shots and all that meat-and-potatoes stuff, he was lacking. Cartwright was a ridiculously unorthodox offensive player who I wouldn't want teaching footwork or shooting to a dog I didn't like, and a mostly positional defender who was a mediocre shot-blocker and help side guy.

The Bulls could have and should have done better.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> What's more important is to figure out where the team goes from here.


Again, I totally agree. I would hope part of that equation is management's realizing that cutting financial corners does not happen without consequences.


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## Kismet (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> Clifford Ray
> ...


I'm not going to continue this any further except to say that you have no idea what the club may have tried to do to lure someone with the required expertise to the Bulls bench. You're presuming they didn't try or didn't care enough about Chandler's and Curry's development to make the effort. The people you've listed like anyone else, may base their career decisions on more than just "compensation packages." This is an exercise in idle speculation, which is ok I suppose, as long as you identify it as such.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> Did I say anything about an all-time great? And let me get this straight -- just because Abdul-Jabbar has failed in teaching big men, that means all gifted big men can't teach? I guess Bill Russell and Paul Silas better turn in their coaching credentials.
> ...


i assumed from your post that somewhat mocked the trio of will purdue , bill wennington and cartwright, that you were talking about their caliber of play translating to what they could teach.

as for cartwright in particular he actually plays in a text book way outside of his release on his shot, if you watch some old games with him in them you'll see he had very good footwork , to negate the fact that he was somewhat plodding and slow, he was as efficient in his movements as a big man the bulls have had since artis gilmore. Cartwright was an expert at getting opposing centers in the middle of the chest with his shoulder while rising up , keeping them on the floor while he shot over them.

as for the post moves of chandler and curry , tyson has 3 moves , that shoulder move in which i guess would be called some kind of half hook , a sweeping hook shot and a turnaround J, its a fair enough grouping of shots , if you are really good you only need 2 , one going each way to keep your defender and defenses off balance , too many moves usualy gets young players thinking too much in the post anyway. the term that comes to mind is jack of all trades master of none , if tyson gets a couple of moves to a pretty good level he'll be set. the way i see it e has a move going right and a move going left and a move that usually draws fouls.

thats enough variety for me , i just want him to get better at them.

curry , he has a lot of moves, alot more than 3 , he trusts only 1, that jump hook, any time he is crowded you go ahead and watch no matter the situation he will take that shot, but if he is going well he'll dip into the bag of moves and pull out the others, but he uses that jump hook to get himself going and opposing defenses already know it, he needs coaching more than chandler, to get curry to remember to keep the defense guessing , tyson needs touches and post ups and he'll be fine.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> It no longer matters _why_ they aren't productive. They just aren't and thats all there is to it.


If the why is not identified and corrected, what's to stop it from happening in the future to our players?

Unless you think its already been corrected?


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not going to continue this any further except to say that you have no idea what the club may have tried to do to lure someone with the required expertise to the Bulls bench. You're presuming they didn't try or didn't care enough about Chandler's and Curry's development to make the effort. The people you've listed like anyone else, may base their career decisions on more than just "compensation packages." This is an exercise in idle speculation, which is ok I suppose, as long as you identify it as such.


If you DO have an idea what the club may have tried to do in this regard, now's as good a time as any to tell us.

Otherwise, I would say that it's reasonably well-known that NBA assistant coaches chase money.

I would say that had the Bulls made a big-time, lead-assistant type offer -- $500,000 or so per year -- to Cliff Ray and Jack Sikma -- we'd have had two high-quality big man coaches to teach both sides of the ball to both our bigs. Since those two, or the equivalent, aren't here, I would assume such offers were never extended.

I would say that all the kvetching I hear about budgets and not wanting to exceed the salary cap for a losing team has utterly no relevance when it comes to paying for coaches. The Bulls could have and should have, given their revenues and their obligation to a loyal ticket-buying fan base, smothered their players in the best coaching money could buy. It would have had no long-term personnel repercussions and done nothing to affect roster flexibility. It would be, though, a drain on profits.

As far as "idle speculation" goes, I guess it's possible that Reinsdorf gave the go-ahead for his GMs to go out and spend whatever it took to get top-notch head and assistant coaches. I have a harder time comprehending the horrible luck that befell those GMs when all the qualified, expensive guys said "no", leaving us with Floyd, Skiles, and a lot of flotsam and jetsam from the dynasty years.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> i assumed from your post that somewhat mocked the trio of will purdue , bill wennington and cartwright, that you were talking about their caliber of play translating to what they could teach.


My fault, then. I didn't mean to somewhat mock them, I meant to completely mock them.

Cartwright had some skills and was on his way to a nice career before his knees failed him, but he never had anything close to Chandler or Curry's explosiveness or speed. He wasn't an efficient scorer and he didn't really ever have any go-to moves. He was a solid screen-setter and cover defender, but he never intimidated a offense. 

Wennington played like a 6-foot guy rather than a 7-footer. Perdue belongs on the NBA's all-time top 50 busts list, and frankly, would probably be a difficult guy to completely respect when it came to teaching. The lesson is much easier to learn when it comes from someone who walked the walk.


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

I don't think Clifford Ray would have had the right cut to his jib 

All that thunder and lightening routine in the latrine with the skanks ?

Its not very golly gee now is it ?


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

And for the last Fukin time .. its calibre 

Not Calibur - Caliber or Exacalibur 

Calibre . Calibre . Fukin Calibre

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Calibre 

Whoops !

Ok Its an Americanisation thing 

I'll be buggered .

Just another example of the *******isation of the Queen's English 

I'm out - like Ron Artest's rap album ( or for the season ) take your pick


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> My fault, then. I didn't mean to somewhat mock them, I meant to completely mock them.
> ...



http://basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=CARTWBI01

i would suggest you pick some better to pick on than cartwright as a 22 year old he avg. 21.7 point 8.9 rebs and shot .547 , hitting 451 free throws at a .797 clip (his field goal % from the field rose the 1st 4 years of his career until it took a slight dip to .561 from .566 the previous year) ...apparently according to you he was not an efficient player despite a career FG % of .525 , so either your standards are ridiculously high or you simply missed the boat on this one.

i would say his fade away J was a pretty good go to move especially before the knee troubles. and the fact that he was never explosive like chandler or curry isn't a reason to say he cant do the job if anything the fact that he could do well without such pyhsical gifts probably speak more of his technical knowledge at playing center than you would like to admit...the perfect guy to teach others to play well at center because ....he could walk the walk and he did it a way i would like our young bigs to emulate with their heads as well as their bodies.

also seeing as he was hired again as a big man coach in august says he may also say his reputation as a big man coach is higher than you want to admit.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Go back and look at ALL the numbers, not just the ones that fit your argument.

Over his first two fully healthy seasons, Cartwright averaged 8.1 rebounds and 1.1 blocks per game. In 1980, those were numbers you could reasonably expect from your small forward, not your center. Similarly, his .550 or so shooting percentage in those years isn't extraordinary in an era where most TEAMS and a lot of guards routinely shot over 50%, and the field-goal percentage champ was always well over 60%. 

He was a competent player, but not that far above average for his position, if at all, and he certainly didn't possess anything even close to the offensive arsenal of a Sikma or Dawkins, or the defensive capabilities of a Ray.



> i would say his fade away J was a pretty good go to move especially before the knee troubles. and the fact that he was never explosive like chandler or curry isn't a reason to say he cant do the job if anything the fact that he could do well without such pyhsical gifts probably speak more of his technical knowledge at playing center than you would like to admit...the perfect guy to teach others to play well at center because ....he could walk the walk and he did it a way i would like our young bigs to emulate with their heads as well as their bodies.


I don't know what games you were watching. Cartwright was an overall liability for the Bulls -- a woeful shotblocker and rebounder and capable of scoring only in the half court. All of the "glue guy" and "we needed his toughness" talk was Krause's spin to cover up the perception (one easy to make when you look at numbers, All-Defense teams, etc.) that he got taken in the Oakley trade. I mean, are the Bulls NOT going to win titles if Cartwright's not there? Please.



> also seeing as he was hired again as a big man coach in august says he may also say his reputation as a big man coach is higher than you want to admit.


And what a success that's been! No, seriously, I'm not surprised he's been hired again -- he can bring something to an NBA bench. He's smart, thoughtful, and articulate. I just don't think he's the right guy to have training TWO of your cornerstones when you decide to go the high-school big man route.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>kukoc4ever</b>!
> 
> 
> If the why is not identified and corrected, what's to stop it from happening in the future to our players?
> ...


Not identifying and fixing the problem (just the fact that there is one) is a major reason losing teams are losing teams.

I remember a great article about the Tampa Bay Bucs back when Rich McKay took over. They sat down and looked at all the mistakes they'd made in the past, how they'd been handled, what led up to them, all of that kind of stuff. 

What they concluded was essentially that it was organizational incompetence that kept them losing.
* Looking for a savior
* Seeing problems without seeing causes
* Inconsistency
* Hesitation
* Panic

Lots of those things should sound familiar to Bulls fans, as this continues to be the way this team is run.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> It no longer matters _why_ they aren't productive. They just aren't and thats all there is to it.
> ...


Relax, it's a message board. Pax is not going to take his ideas from us (at least I would hope he'd have some independent reliable thoughts of his own).

But since we do like to play real gm (pun intended, ha ha), if you can't figure out what went wrong, what makes you think you'll be able to stop this cycle of losing ?

I wonder what would happen if we substituted getting an F in a calculus test to the Bulls failures on the court using your logic.

"I can point your fingers at a hundred different reasons why I got a zero on, but you know what, it's not important to figure out what I did wrong. I just need to know what I got to do from here !" 

When you don't do look at what went wrong, you're stuck with such superficialities as blaming players.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

With all of Scott May's talk about getting quality bigmen to teach Tyson and Curry the ropes, maybe the Bulls should of sent Tyson and Curry to Pete Newell's Bigman Camp. oops  

I have never been around so many people that blame coaches for the lack of developemnet of lottery picks. The kids have to take responsibilty to become better players. Nothing stopped Tyson or Eddy from paying their own money and getting quality teachers. Hell Eddy and Tyson could enroll on line http://www.petenewellbigmancamp.net/page13.html


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> 
> Relax, it's a message board. Pax is not going to take his ideas from us (at least I would hope he'd have some independent reliable thoughts of his own).
> 
> ...


I think I could stop the cycle of losing even at 15 years old. Its simple get a new coach, and keep this core together while adding to it. Play the best players 36 minutes a game, not 15 while Antonio Davis racks up 30+ minutes a game. Its as simple of playing Deng, Duhon, Curry, Hinrich, Chandler for 36 minutes a game. Nocioni for about 24, Davis for 12, and Gordon for 24. The not playing our best players is this team's main problem.

PROOF:

Curry 17 minutes, 20 point blowout loss to Phoenix.

Curry 17 minutes, 13 point loss to Golden St.

Curry 15 minutes, 24 point loss to Miami

That is an average loss of 19 points when Curry plays less then half the game. When Curry does play half the game the Bulls only have an average loss of, 7 points. That is a big difference that Curry makes when he plays more then one half of basketball.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>L.O.B</b>!
> I have never been around so many people that blame coaches for the lack of developemnet of lottery picks.


Because the NBA has never had two high school lottery picks on the same team (I think).

Coming fresh off a championship and in the minset of finding tools to help MJ, they were not prepared to develop a bunch of kids.

And when it seemed like we were making progress, we go and flip the switch to an inexperienced GM.


> The kids have to take responsibilty to become better players. Nothing stopped Tyson or Eddy from paying their own money and getting quality teachers. Hell Eddy and Tyson could enroll on line http://www.petenewellbigmancamp.net/page13.html


I always assume people do things that make sense for them, which a lot of the time won't make sense for other people. So I assume that they did whatever they thought was needed.

However, what they thought was needed, may not exactly have been the best answer.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BabyBlueSlugga7</b>!
> 
> PROOF:
> 
> ...


Cause and effect? 

I watched all three games, Curry didn't play worth a damn while he was on the court in all three stinkers. I could conclude that the Bulls lost all three games because the Bulls focused their game plan with Curry in mind and he didn't deliver before seeing the bench.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Reading through this thread, I have a few comments.

ScottMay, I think the world of the things you usually write, but I have to agree with Kukoc4Ever about Cartwright. The guy was a beast of a player when he was young. The stats don't tell the whole story, but the guy was able to thrive at both the C and PF positions. He suffered from debilitating foot injuries, much like the ones Grant Hill suffers from, yet he still produced. His rebounding numbers are what you'd expect from a PF who played alongside Patrick Ewing in a twin towers scheme. As a Bull, he was a shadow of his former self due to those injuries, but still played a solid game at both ends of the court.

He was, and still is, ideally suited to coach the Bulls. Like Chandler and Curry, he's ~7 feet tall, and he played BOTH positions the 2Cs are supposed to play together, and in that twin towers scheme. As coach of the Bulls, the 2Cs did play the best stretch of basketball in their careers, and the team won 30 games.

That said, it doesn't take a big man to coach big men. Pat Riley was a former player who wasn't a big man, yet he had real success coaching guys named Kareem and Mourning. 

Unfortunately, Skiles isn't proving to be one of those former non-bigman players who can coach big men.

Chandler can be a very effective center in this league if used properly. ScottMay hit the nail on the head when he talked about "comfort zone." Chandler has shown me in numerous games that his comfort zone is away from the basket. He can handle the ball more than decently, and he has great potential as a passer from the high post. He also knows how to set a pick. When he plays his game instead of Skiles', he's a real threat to grab 18 boards or more and even score 20+.

What I saw when BC was coaching was they did run post up plays for Chandler and he was learning from it. BC picked and chose the times to feature Chandler rather sparingly and quite appropriately. That stopped when BC left and Skiles is just getting around to drawing up plays for Chandler now, but at inappropriate times (like with Shaq guarding him).

I'll conclude with an observation about our offensive system. I've seen it over and over again, and it's horrible. Yet I was sort of shocked to see the Heat run the exact same offense on the last play of quarters. It dawned on me, and it makes real sense, that the Bulls' offensive scheme is the last possession of the quarter play, where you have your ballhandler or best player dribble out the clock and try to create a play for himself or dish to a wing for a (hopefully) good shot.

This is why I perceive it that Hinrich overdribbles on most possessions, or that he gets his assists mostly when he dishes to a player who hits a shot with the clock nearly running down. In this system, as PG, he's very likely to get the assist on almost every basket we score.

One other observation is that Hinrich repeatedly used picks set for him by our bigs to shake his man and instead of driving to the basket he'd make a quick pass while he was between his man and the basket. This makes no sense to me - pick to get a guy a mismatch or open altogether and use that pick to get a pass off instead of a shot off.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> 
> Because the NBA has never had two high school lottery picks on the same team (I think).
> 
> ...


The expirenced GM was the one who drafted the two teens. The expirenced GM was the one who brought in a College coach to teach the kids the NBA, although Floyd didn't know the NBA either. 

It was the expirenced GM that brought in Cartwright , Will Perdue and Oakley to teach the kids the ropes. 

It was the expirenced GM that replaced Floyd with another inexpirenced head coach in Cartwright and brought in great bigman coach Bob Thorton to toughen up the toddlers.

It was also the expirenced GM that traded quality bigmen, Brand and Miller to help the teenagers grow.

To blame Paxson and Skiles for Chandler and Curry is laughable. The 2 lottery picks, haven't lived up to their billing. 

I often wonder had Tyson and Curry attended college would the be better players today, or would they have wasted their "potential" in school and never gotten drafted in the lottery?

I remember when Phillpe Lopez was in SI being compared to Jordan. He would of been a sure lottery pick with his hype, instead he went to St John's and was exposed. 

If Curry and Chandler were destined to be great, coaching wouldn't of held them back.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>L.O.B</b>!
> 
> 
> Cause and effect?
> ...


Kirk doesn't see the bench when he stinks.

I know I know, it's because he tries hard, and plays the right way.

Just in that preference by Paxiles seems to lie a problem of this team trusting players. They always seem to be auditioning them rather than helping them.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>L.O.B</b>!
> 
> 
> The expirenced GM was the one who drafted the two teens. The expirenced GM was the one who brought in a College coach to teach the kids the NBA, although Floyd didn't know the NBA either.
> ...


It's different for a guard since there are so many of them. But it's much more rare with a center with this awesome combination of physical tools. 

Just because they aren't great at this point in time doesn't mean they can't be useful later on in a Chauncey Billups kind of way.

EDIT: You also missed the part where I said that I thought they were improving before the experienced GM got canned.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> 
> Kirk doesn't see the bench when he stinks.
> 
> ...


what does this have to do with my response to Sugga's theory?


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>L.O.B</b>!
> 
> 
> what does this have to do with my response to Sugga's theory?


Pointing out a double standard


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The 6ft Hurdle</b>!
> 
> 
> EDIT: You also missed the part where I said that I thought they were improving before the experienced GM got canned.


I can't argue with you. Krause was the greatest gm ever, this whole mess is Johnny come lately's fault.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

> I can't argue with you. Krause was the greatest gm ever, this whole mess is Johnny come lately's fault.


Oh yeah cause I actually think that way. I'm done with this thread until I have something new to say. 

What needs to be at the top of this thread is not our banter (fueled by your caricaturizations of whatever you think I think) but the last post that actually had content in it, DaBullz post.



> Reading through this thread, I have a few comments.
> 
> ScottMay, I think the world of the things you usually write, but I have to agree with Kukoc4Ever about Cartwright. The guy was a beast of a player when he was young. The stats don't tell the whole story, but the guy was able to thrive at both the C and PF positions. He suffered from debilitating foot injuries, much like the ones Grant Hill suffers from, yet he still produced. His rebounding numbers are what you'd expect from a PF who played alongside Patrick Ewing in a twin towers scheme. As a Bull, he was a shadow of his former self due to those injuries, but still played a solid game at both ends of the court.
> 
> ...


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> Go back and look at ALL the numbers, not just the ones that fit your argument.
> ...


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1980.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1981.html

in cartwright's rookie year he was 9th in field goal % 

his 2nd year he was 7th

and he was in the top 10 for the next 2 seasons as well

thats 4 of the 5 years before his career took a hit because of injuries.

you said he wasn't efficient , the numbers say different , you can try and say the league shot higher but he shot higher than just about everyone anyway at that time so i am saying you are wrong on that, and that he was efficient no matter the era he was playing in and he was efficient compared to his peers in that era.

darryl dawkins was not the player cartwright was , cartwrights career got derailed by injuries , dawkins because he just wasn't all that good , in fact despite the years in which you seem to claim cartwright basically couldn't score well or rebound , he has higher career avg. in both than dawkins .

there is nothing to suggest dawkins is better for a big man job than cartwright not as a player , and not as a coach unless you have some story at your disposal where people are lauding dawkins ability to teach things , he couldn't actually do in the nba.

as far as cartwrights ability to teach big men i'll let curry's and chandlers career be that guide , can you say that either has shown the slightest improvement since cartwright was removed as coach?

i dont think you can.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> Reading through this thread, I have a few comments.
> 
> ScottMay, I think the world of the things you usually write, but I have to agree with Kukoc4Ever about Cartwright. The guy was a beast of a player when he was young. The stats don't tell the whole story, but the guy was able to thrive at both the C and PF positions. He suffered from debilitating foot injuries, much like the ones Grant Hill suffers from, yet he still produced. His rebounding numbers are what you'd expect from a PF who played alongside Patrick Ewing in a twin towers scheme. As a Bull, he was a shadow of his former self due to those injuries, but still played a solid game at both ends of the court.
> ...


very sound analysis dabullz, i'd like to add something to it, most coaches use at least a few different sets to get the best out of their personel, skiles' sets to get his big men off are absolutely horrible, the only guy on the team who is even close to being able to play in them is othella harrington , who is an undersized big man who not so coincidently usually resorts to facing up in skiles sets to get his buckets, which i think is ideal for scoring n those sets .

there are basically no passing options and facing not just your defender but also where the double team (although this is rare when its othella) would help a great deal in scoring ... unfortuantely curry and chandler's main advantage is size not so much speed and quickness and takes away from their overall package as players, where ideally you want a system that allows them to use both on occasion depending on how a defense plays them and their matchup.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>L.O.B</b>!
> With all of Scott May's talk about getting quality bigmen to teach Tyson and Curry the ropes, maybe the Bulls should of sent Tyson and Curry to Pete Newell's Bigman Camp. oops
> 
> I have never been around so many people that blame coaches for the lack of developemnet of lottery picks. The kids have to take responsibilty to become better players. Nothing stopped Tyson or Eddy from paying their own money and getting quality teachers. Hell Eddy and Tyson could enroll on line http://www.petenewellbigmancamp.net/page13.html


:laugh: 

A $200-million-a-year organization that at some level honestly believes it's the best-run team in professional sports ought to sublet the development of its two prized assets -- guys it made room for by trading away at least two future All-Stars -- to Pete Newell and his six-day-long summer camp. Am I understanding you correctly?

But you are definitely on to something here -- maybe the Bulls should make the players pay for their own coaches. That could add up to some serious savings AND it would teach these young hip-hop whippersnappers a thing or two about bootstraps and jibs and playing the right way.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

Cartwright might have the best coach for Curry and Chandler but Jerry Krause had a great situation w/ Cartwright coaching the 2 teens before he agreed to trade Miller, Artest and Mercer for Rose and Best. The pre Rose team was playing it's best defensive basketball post Dynasty. It was playing Cartwright's style of ball. It was coming together. 

Post Artest, Cartwright focused all his time on Curry.Cartwright did everything he could to help Curry when Curry wouldn't help himself. If Curry would of been in shape and come to play last season, Cartwright might still be coaching. 

Chandler's health? and Curry's lack of commitment doomed Cartwright. 

Skiles and Paxson got Curry to commit to getting in shape but Curry still doesn't dominate games. 

Last night was a prime example. Skiles wanted Curry to be the focal point of the game plan and we lost by a ton. 
Maybe we should blame Eddy's tender eye? Is it the same eye that prevented Eddy from working out last year? Somebody get the young man some James Worthy goggles or the old school Curt Rambis glasses. Then again Eddy might look like an oversized Urkle instead of the next Shaq .


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:
> ...


actually Scott I was making reference to the fact that Krause sent both kids there.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

and another thing Scott May.

Something is wrong in Indiana when Sean May is getting booed in Bloomington instead of playing his home games there.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>F.Jerzy</b>!
> And for the last Fukin time .. its calibre
> 
> Not Calibur - Caliber or Exacalibur
> ...


LOl, FJ. Don't ever change!


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> Reading through this thread, I have a few comments.
> 
> ScottMay, I think the world of the things you usually write, but I have to agree with Kukoc4Ever about Cartwright. The guy was a beast of a player when he was young. The stats don't tell the whole story, but the guy was able to thrive at both the C and PF positions. He suffered from debilitating foot injuries, much like the ones Grant Hill suffers from, yet he still produced. His rebounding numbers are what you'd expect from a PF who played alongside Patrick Ewing in a twin towers scheme. As a Bull, he was a shadow of his former self due to those injuries, but still played a solid game at both ends of the court.
> ...


That's just the thing. He was NOT a beast when he was young, either. He was always a very unorthodox, unconventional player who relied on craft more than athleticism. That worked for him, but it's not the approach you stress imo with two athletic studs like Chandler and Curry. You obviously want them to be skilled, but you want them to develop their strengths and become power players, not skill ones.

And Cartwright's power numbers were anemic. His best rebounding years were WELL before Ewing came to town, 1979-1980 and 1980-1981. In his rookie year he finished a respectable 14th in rpg and his second he was 32nd, but to put that in context, both years that meant he averaged just a little more than HALF of what the league leader did. Same with FG%--he finished in the top fifteen his first four years, but these were years where as many as 50+ players were over 50% league-wide, and he was quite a ways off the 60%+ put up by the Gilmores and Abdul-Jabbars of the world. I'll spare Bill some embarrassment and not even bring up his shotblocking numbers, which were abysmally low.

Cartwright DID coax the best ball out of Chandler and Curry that we've seen on a consistent basis to date. I say that has a lot more to do with comfort zone than with any specific skill or move he taught them. He ran that screen and alley-oop play for Tyson at least once a game. He ran that slip screen, cut across the lane and receive entry pass play for Eddy on a frequent basis. He encouraged both guys to run the floor on fast breaks. He tried whatever he could to get them easy baskets.

But that's just not enough for guys drafted #2 and #4 and meant to be the centerpiece of a team for 15 years. You have to surround guys like that with the best in the business, especially when they certainly aren't going to pick up anything from their talent-bereft teammates.



> That said, it doesn't take a big man to coach big men. Pat Riley was a former player who wasn't a big man, yet he had real success coaching guys named Kareem and Mourning.


It might not take a big man to coach big men, but I think it DOES take a big man to TEACH big men. Kareem and Mourning (and Ewing) were finished products when they came into the league. Riley had to figure out how to maximize their abilities, but he sure as hell didn't have to teach them much. Curry and Chandler needed a head coach who understood how to use them, but they desperately needed two (or more) assistants to TEACH them how to play the game. What they did in high school didn't amount to much more than what would happen if I played now against a bunch of fifth-graders.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>L.O.B</b>!
> 
> 
> actually Scott I was making reference to the fact that Krause sent both kids there.


And I'm saying that making sure Tyson and Eddy went to a six-day summer camp that has decidedly mixed results for pro players doesn't absolve Krause or anyone else for not getting the best possible full-time teachers for their huge investment.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> And I'm saying that making sure Tyson and Eddy went to a six-day summer camp that has decidedly mixed results for pro players doesn't absolve Krause or anyone else for not getting the best possible full-time teachers for their huge investment.


which is something we both can agree with.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>L.O.B</b>!
> and another thing Scott May.
> 
> Something is wrong in Indiana when Sean May is getting booed in Bloomington instead of playing his home games there.


I think it had more to do with his not wanting to stay in Jared Jeffries shadow than his dad's loyalty to Knight, but who the hell knows. 

I keep the screen name more as a reference to how I started to follow the Bulls than I do out of paying homage to Scott May himself or IU. All of Knight's b.s. over the years just really sapped my fanship and appreciation of the many good things he did and the way he ran his program. 

Throw in the ridiculous racial stuff that's gone on with Davis, even if it's just a few bad apples (although knowing southern Indiana, I'm sure it's more than just a few), and I've about had it.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1980.html
> ...


We can agree to disagree, I guess, on how great the numbers were. I say in context they weren't that impressive -- not when guards and small forwards were shooting in the low fifties, and not when the elite centers were shooting 60 or 62 or 65 percent. The rebounding numbers are even less impressive, and the shot-blocking numbers are an embarrassment.

More importantly, I remember seeing Cartwright play. He never commanded a double-team. He was easy to stop when it mattered. He was horrible in the playoffs. Nice guy, good teammate, smart player, fine. The person you want to have teach post offense and defense to two cornerstone high-school big men? Nope. 



> darryl dawkins was not the player cartwright was , cartwrights career got derailed by injuries , dawkins because he just wasn't all that good , in fact despite the years in which you seem to claim cartwright basically couldn't score well or rebound , he has higher career avg. in both than dawkins .
> 
> there is nothing to suggest dawkins is better for a big man job than cartwright not as a player , and not as a coach unless you have some story at your disposal where people are lauding dawkins ability to teach things , he couldn't actually do in the nba.


There are people to this day who'll say that Darryl Dawkins is on the short list of the best physical talents to ever play the game. He had a rare combination of explosiveness, strength, great hands, world-class leaping ability, and speed. He played the game way above the rim. His own foolishness, partying, and substance abuse (and some injuries, it needs to be pointed out) kept him from realizing true greatness. But who would know more about the potential pitfalls of entering the league as a high-schooler? He's gone on to be a well-respected head coach in the USBL and IBL. He's come back from the dead. 

Sometimes hard-to-motivate cases like Curry are best motivated by a person who's most like them, not a classy nice guy like Cartwright or a martinet like Skiles. Dawkins would have been a real interesting choice. It's too bad his jib used to be all messed up.



> as far as cartwrights ability to teach big men i'll let curry's and chandlers career be that guide , can you say that either has shown the slightest improvement since cartwright was removed as coach?
> 
> i dont think you can.


I don't disagree, but again, I think that had to do with his tendency to call more big-man friendly plays as opposed to Skiles's 6'4-and-under-league mentality.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> That's just the thing. He was NOT a beast when he was young, either. He was always a very unorthodox, unconventional player who relied on craft more than athleticism. That worked for him, but it's not the approach you stress imo with two athletic studs like Chandler and Curry. You obviously want them to be skilled, but you want them to develop their strengths and become power players, not skill ones.



All I can say is that if you watched the first three Bulls championships, Cartwright was a beast defensively. He never had a power-centered offensive game, but he would shut down opposing centers with regularity. I think he could teach these young centers a LOT on the defensive end.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> 
> 
> We can agree to disagree, I guess, on how great the numbers were. I say in context they weren't that impressive -- not when guards and small forwards were shooting in the low fifties, and not when the elite centers were shooting 60 or 62 or 65 percent. The rebounding numbers are even less impressive, and the shot-blocking numbers are an embarrassment.
> ...


we'll have to agree to disagree then , i do think you are confusing the injured cartwright with the healthy one , the one on the bulls usually had to stop on the way to practice and games because he couldn't drive for 20 mintes in a row because his legs couldn't take it.also confusing the times and the #s of it , for instance in both of cartwrights years only 2 players had a + 60% fg, if a guard shot over 50 % it wasn't close to the norm even in a time when almost no one shot 3's 

the healthy cartwright was double teamed , did score at a pretty good rate , as well as be a top rate defender, and as a rookie he was all of 1.5 rebounds a game out of the top 10 so i dont think many small forwards were on his level as a rebounder , he needed improvement but you are overstating the times, i guess because i live in NY i remember him in ny as a player and that player was pretty good.

he simply wasn't at all healthy on the bulls, when basically all he was was a sometimes post up threat and a pretty good defender .

also cartwright did motivate them well enough that they were right on course for what we expected from them as prep to pro's a standard they have failed to keep since them.

also darryl dawkins just because he could run and jump didn't make him a good enough ball player to teach anyone anything , if anything the guy was a walking encyclopedia on the people you didn't want C&C to be and who to emulate, besides its not like he can run and jump now , and i doubt very much they would learn much from watching how he used his gifts as a player , because he did a very poor job of it then.

the bulls dont need to teach curry and chandler on how to run and jump ...they know that already , they need to learn skills , how to think and react out there , they need a cerebral touch and of course playing time, i dont see how getting someone who never learned that himself , helps them.

and thats really what its all about the ability to teach, i have yet to see any proof that dawkins can teach anybody , surely no nba teams think so because he hasn't offered a job to my knowleged above the USBL level. and like you i would like to see a proven guy get a chance with these guys but that apparently isn't happening , cartwright has proven he can get constant improvement out the duo so to me right now he is a very good choice and an unproven guy like dawkins would just be another turn for the bean counters to get a cheap noted guy who would unless he showed ability that belied his experiences would be just like their usual suspects .

in cartwright they got lucky, he happened to be good, he had coached in sea, and in chi. under phil jax so he had a bit more credentials than the usual guys the bulls tend to hire , but they couldn't handle the success apparently and now we are forced to watch skiles along with whomever(you would think skiles is getting some help from whoever is the bulls big man coach and the help just sux) you would think the least they could do was cheat off of cartwright's paper so to speak and try to use some of the stuff he was using to get them off. with young players confidence means alot 

Dawkins for all his bluster , (who is a great interview, pretty honest and strightforward) can only really teach tyson and eddy how to underachieve while charming the media to the extent they almost never talk about his often sub-par play, its a nice skill to have to be sure , but its one i wish they will not need anymore. sure he can tell them about his life as a high schooler to pro's , but they are in their 4th year now , those days are long behind them. they dont need guys who have been where they have been , they need people to help them get somewhere special.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

What's John Thompson up to these days? There's a guy who consistently developed big men into top quality NBA players.

No, Cartwright wasn't the top center in the league. ScottMay mentioned his "classmates" or peers. The Gilmores and Kareems of the world were surely better. His power numbers were quite impressive when you consider he played just 30 minutes a game.

As a Bulls player, the team did run post plays on offense for him and he scored nearly 10 PPG for us during the first threepeat.

Someone else mentioned his defense. 

I'd add that with Oakley and Corzine we were a playoff team, without those two and with Cartwright we were a dynasty.

I agree with Scott that Dawkins had the physical gifts. I'm not so sure he has much to teach, as his career pretty much parallels that of Curry at this point - both with the skills but lacking whatever it takes to be THE man or to even stay in the game on a regular basis.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

*Jamal Crawford [We Need Him]*

This team would be a lot better team with Jamal Crawford on the team. He is clutch. He knew how to work with Eddy and Tyson pretty good, and could create for himself. He may not have had the assist numbers that Hinrich did, but he also didn't go fishing for assist. He was the best shooter. He would be the best player on this team. He would be the best offensive guard, and the best defensive guard on the team. We really need him right now. Nice job Paxson. We are exactly where we are as a team last year even after all of Paxsons nice move's because of one bad move. We have to stop doing this.

Its not only the players but more so the management for letting this guy go.

We would of beat Miami or at least had a better chance with this guy.


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## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kismet</b>!
> 
> 
> It no longer matters _why_ they aren't productive. They just aren't and thats all there is to it.


I strongly disagree 

As to _why_ they aren't productive is precisely the point to address possible ( and probable ) systematic / structural deficiencies in the Bulls organisation structure 

You can keep recycling players and Coaches .. but perhaps there is something else that in the Management structrure / Culture of the Bulls organisation which lacks relevance and adaptability to today's game and which keeps it firmly entrenched in the Basketball equivalent of the Third World


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>F.Jerzy</b>!
> 
> 
> I strongly disagree
> ...


on this we agree , you'll never solve a problem if you dont care why it exist. I have a strong suspicion the people in charge of the problem solving are mainly the problem and i am not just talking about reinsdorf and paxson i am talking about the whole organization including the major shareholders who in this org. are known for only caring for the bottomline interest of the bulls in monetary terms , and not much at all about what goes on , on the court.


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