# This Iverson trade talk is just STUPID



## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

Listen..

I am a hardcore sixer fan, have have had season tickets since 96. Many people not in the area didnt have a clue of how bad of shape this franchise was in 1995. You couldn't give sixers seats away. It was a disaster. The there was a day in June 96.. 

The day Pat Croce got his hands on Allen Iverson, Philadelphia experienced the rebirth. Slowly but surely, each year the sixers got better and better. Allen Iverson is the backbone to the sixer's late 1990's franchise. He made the city. He brought back the fans. He made new fans all over the world. He made the sixers' one of the NBA's most popular teams. The "Answer" to Philly's problems was the Answer. 

Here is the stupid thing about Brown. He is a idiot. I am tired of hearing people say he is the greatest coach blah blah blah. Look at the young talents he has discarded for old, overrated scrubs. Bruce Bowen didn't last long... BANG hes in the NBA Finals alongside Speedy Claxton. Matt Harpring "didn't" fit in to Brown's system.. Yikes Harpring just blew up. And look what we have to show for Brown's coaching. Tyrone Hill.. hahahahaha.. Aaron Mckie hahaha. Eric Snow.. hahahahah. They are pathetic. 

As for Iverson, the trade talk is just stupid. From a fan's perspective, a marketer's perspective, and player's perspective, if you trade Iverson, you are just starting back at ground ZERO. 
Here is a guy who gives more on the court physically than ANYONE in the entire NBA... And people talk about trading him? For some unproven talents. Come on. If Billy King is even thinking about that, he needs to realize his *** will be on the meal ticket line, because the entire franchise will be going down the tubes.
Billy King will be taking his chromed out Escalade to the chop shop to scrap that!!

All for one reason.. The Answer is the Answer.


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## digital jello (Jan 10, 2003)

Players don't fit into coach's systems, that's just part of the game. Brown's a great coach, there's a reason he's in the HOF and is coaching the USA team this summer, he' just a terrible evaluator of young talent and he's pretty stubborn.

I agree with most of what you said, except that Eric Snow is "pathetic." He's far from it.


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>digital jello</b>!
> Players don't fit into coach's systems, that's just part of the game. Brown's a great coach, there's a reason he's in the HOF and is coaching the USA team this summer, he' just a terrible evaluator of young talent and he's pretty stubborn.
> 
> I agree with most of what you said, except that Eric Snow is "pathetic." He's far from it.


And I agree with most of what you say here, except that part about Brown being in the HOF. He is there because he is a great basketball TEACHER, which doesn't necessarily translate into being great coach - a very good coach - yeah.


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## BigGameJames (May 27, 2003)

You are very correct about McKie,Snow and Hill and that is exactly why Philly might already be down the tubes. Tell us Truth, what your solution is to the Sixers current problems. They made it to the finals which is more than alot of teams can say. It may be time to start rebuilding again, no?


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## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

*Current Problems*

Sign a Quality Coach, who can evaluate talent.

Try to pick a point gaurd in the off-season with talent and experience..

Release Ty "Skelator" Hill.. send him to the pasture.


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## digital jello (Jan 10, 2003)

*Re: Current Problems*



> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> Try to pick a point gaurd in the off-season with talent and experience..


Why do you have no respect for Eric Snow?


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## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

*many reasons*

he is the worst, slowest, and least fun to watch PG in the NBA.

He has no moves, and cant shoot for his life.


he is terrible for a starter in the NBA


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## bbendone (May 23, 2003)

Philly needs to get Andre Miller, & PJ Brown OR Alonzo

I cant imagine A.I. in another Jersey other than A Sixers Jersey


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*...*



> Originally posted by <b>bbendone</b>!
> Philly needs to get Andre Miller, & PJ Brown OR Alonzo


I think the Philly management has already made it's decision about who is or isn't leaving Philly.... they've decided Brown goes, and AI stays. I don't think it is anymore complicated than that.

Like The Truth34 said, AI is the be-all and end-all for the 76er's. As long as he can lace them up and play at the high level he does, he's the man.

As for bbendone.... I really don't think they want Andre Miller. I've seen enough of him in CLev, and I do not think he will work well with AI. I think in the right spot Miller can be effective, but he is not a push-it-up PG, he is a work-it-in type. AI likes to push it, or create on his own, Miller tends to hold onto the ball and work it in, or back his man down. Wrong styles.

Now if SA was to get Miller, I think Miller would work well with Duncan. And Parker might just work pretty good with AI.


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## BigGameJames (May 27, 2003)

I don't think point guard is their biggest worry. They seem to have more than one weak link in Philly. Allen Iverson is an unbelivable talent, this is obvious, but he needs alot more help than he is getting if Philly wants to contend for the East.


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## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

*How can not blindly accept the ideas of the Basketballboards May Poster of the Month?*



> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> ...As for Iverson, the trade talk is just stupid. From a fan's perspective, a marketer's perspective, and player's perspective, if you trade Iverson, you are just starting back at ground ZERO.
> Here is a guy who gives more on the court physically than ANYONE in the entire NBA... And people talk about trading him? For some unproven talents. Come on. If Billy King is even thinking about that, he needs to realize his *** will be on the meal ticket line, because the entire franchise will be going down the tubes.
> Billy King will be taking his chromed out Escalade to the chop shop to scrap that!!


Dude, you gotta look at Philly's financial situation, if you look at that financial situation, you realize immediately why Larry Brown left, why Brown was ENCOURAGED to leave, why Philly is in big BIG trouble, why Iverson will soon be one extremely unhappy camper. Here's an earlier post that explains Philly's financial situation and why Kenny Thomas and Derrick Coleman will both be allowed to walk this summer:


> Originally posted by <b>robyg1974</b>!
> Take a look at Philly's payroll situation, it's not pretty:
> 
> http://www.nbazone.net/teams/View_Salary.asp?TId=7
> ...


When you look at it this way, from a collective bargaining agreement perspective--and I cannot believe that any of you guys ignore CBA stuff, there's no way and I mean NO WAY that you can really have any idea about what's going on in today's NBA if you don't understand the nuts-and-bolts stuff--then Iverson-to-Detroit makes way more sense. Look, I understand that nobody puts fans in the seats more than Iverson does. But I also understand that an extremely unhappy and thoroughly disgusted Iverson is only going to cause problems, especially when ownership refuses to make the moves that will be necessary to placate him.

Why am I the only person on the planet who realizes why Brown left Philly? Why am I the only person on the planet who realizes what Jeff Van Gundy and everybody else keep turning down that job? If you were Larry Brown, and management told you that they weren't going to let you re-sign Thomas OR D.C. this summer, that the most you could spend on free agency was around $2-$2.5 mil TOTAL, AND if they told you that the REASON why you could only spend $2-$2.5 mil TOTAL is because of all of your terrible TERRIBLE GM moves over the past few years, wouldn't you quit? If you are Jeff Van Gundy, and you are totally an East Coast guy, you totally don't want to leave the East Coast, you totally want a high profile East Coast coaching job, and Philly calls you up in the wake of the Brown departure, don't you think to yourself, "Good god, now THAT is the job I WANT right there!"? Of course you do! So why did JVG turn that job down pretty much instantenously? Why do you think? It's because that's not a good job right now. Why isn't it a good job? Why do you think? Because they're getting ready to rebuild!

I was telling all those Portland fans about a month ago to brace themselves for the rebuilding process, and they wanted to shoot me! Now I'm telling you Philly fans to brace yourselves for the rebuilding process, and I'm sure you guys want to shoot me, too! But get ready, because it's going to happen! Even if they don't trade Iverson, they're going to lose Thomas and D.C. this summer, and take another look at the frontcourt guys who are left:

Keith Van Horn, Samuel Dalembert, Efthimios Rentzias, Sam Clancy.

Dear GOD, that is TERRIBLE! Easily the worst frontcourt situation (i.e., PFs and Cs, I'm not counting SFs here) in the league next year! EASILY! How can you not want to go ahead and officially kickstart the rebuilding process if that's what your frontcourt is going to look like? How can Philly possibly prevent Allen Iverson from shooting everybody in the front office if that's all he has to work with next year?

ANOTHER option, IF Philly wants to get a guy who will FOR SURE put fans in the SEATS, is to make this deal with Detroit for the #2 (and Richard Hamilton), and THEN to turn around and make a deal with DENVER for the #3. What can Denver do for Philly? He won't want to cough up Nene Hilario, obviously. I suppose he could cough up Nikoloz Tskitishvili. Rodney White, nothing special. Juwan Howard in a sign-and-trade? The BEST thing Denver could do for Philly is to bail the Sixers out on KVH's contract. How about this:

Donnie Darko (#2 pick) and Keith Van Horn to Denver for Carmelo Anthony (#3 pick) and Marcus Camby (two years left on his contract, makes way less than KVH, about $8 mil less, I believe).

And yes, I do believe that Kiki is so crazy about Donnie Darko that he makes this move. If Donnie Darko ends up being as good as people think he'll be, Kiki won't regret this move, either.

This gets Philly's 2003-04 TAXABLE payroll, payroll that counts for salary cap purposes, down to around $40 mil, which means they can easily re-sign Kenny Thomas, they can match a MLE offer ($4.5 mil), plus they can bring back D.C. at a market value deal (around $3.5 mil, probably), plus they get Carmelo, who will totally put people in the seats from Day One. Philly has ended up trading Iverson and the terrible contracts of Van Horn and McKie for Carmelo Anthony, Richard Hamilton, Marcus Camby, and some expiring contracts, take a look at Philly's revised 2003-04 roster:

Starting lineup

PG Eric Snow (36 mpg)
SG Richard Hamilton (40 mpg)
SF Carmelo Anthony (32 mpg)
PF Kenny Thomas (40 mpg)
C Derrick Coleman (28 mpg)

Key reserves: Greg Buckner (20 mpg), John Salmons (16 mpg), Samuel Dalembert (16 mpg), Efthimios Rentzias (12 mpg)

End of the bench (no PT): Michael Curry, Hubert Davis, Zeljko Rebraca

Stashed on the IR: Marcus Camby (I have ZERO FAITH in this guy's ability to stay healthy for very long at this point), Sam Clancy

Despite the terrible bench, this Philly team should probably contend for a playoff spot in the East, maybe they'll sneak in at #7 or #8, which is impressive when you consider they have lost the two guys who most people cconsider to be unreplaceable, PLUS they have created a financially sane payroll, the two worst contracts all of a sudden are Eric Snow and Greg Buckner, Snow's contract really isn't all that bad (although I do think trading him to a contender for a younger guy and preferably some contracts that expire within a year or two is a good idea), and Buckner's contract, well, that's a bad contract because of the number of years that are left on it (five, FIVE!), but he doesn't get paid THAT much money (maybe you can package him with Eric Snow somehow, I don't know). Philly has rebuilt their team, they've achieved financial sanity amazingly quickly, and they are still probably a playoff team, and, in the long run, they will go as far as Carmelo can take them. Philly fans will never and can never and SHOULD never forget Iverson, but they will certainly love Carmelo, that's for sure.


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## BobbyDigital32 (Mar 16, 2003)

*Re: How can not blindly accept the ideas of the Basketballboards May Poster of the Month?*



> Originally posted by <b>robyg1974</b>!
> 
> Dude, you gotta look at Philly's financial situation, if you look at that financial situation, you realize immediately why Larry Brown left, why Brown was ENCOURAGED to leave, why Philly is in big BIG trouble, why Iverson will soon be one extremely unhappy camper. Here's an earlier post that explains Philly's financial situation and why Kenny Thomas and Derrick Coleman will both be allowed to walk this summer:
> 
> ...


I would just like to say that you are a genius. How do you come up with this stuff?


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## HBK826 (Jun 1, 2003)

Thats great and all but if the salaries don't match up the deal won't work. The have to be within like 3 mill of eachother (or so) under NBA rules.


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## carayip (Jan 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HBK826</b>!
> Thats great and all but if the salaries don't match up the deal won't work. The have to be within like 3 mill of eachother (or so) under NBA rules.


I have yet to see a Roby's trade which doesn't match in salaries!


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## HBK826 (Jun 1, 2003)

If I'm wrong I apologize, but how do Camby and Van Horn match up salary wise if one makes 8 million less than the other?


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

I know the situation is ugly, and I know rebuilding isn't an option, it's a necessity. And I agree on the reasons Larry Brown left, he murdered the franchise, taking a team that looked like it could run for another year at the Finals, and making them into what we see today.

I mean look at the ugly deals he helped manufacture: McKie, Mutombo, and Buckner. And one thing I'll say, while I love Iverson as a player, I'm scared to sign him longtime Max money, even if he wanted to stay.. because I don't think he's got as many years left playing at the level he's playing.

If we don't trade our picks from the next two seasons (2004, 2005), I'll be a very happy camper, because they both at this point have the looks of being lottery picks. Which would go a long way to help the team depth, and youth.

Because we all know, this ship that Larry Brown jumped off of, can't sail for too much longer.

-Tim


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## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

*well*

I think your insane if you were meaning to say what you said.


Rip Hamilton will sell seats?? Hahahaha


Don't Think so. Rip Hamilton can't sell Jersies out of Detroit, let alone tickets in a city like Philadelphia


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## BigGameJames (May 27, 2003)

If robyg's post is correct(and I think it is), then Philly should really think about moving Iverson. No way this team can contend with AI and that bunch of scrubs no matter how well AI plays. It looks like rebuilding time in Philly and some people just need to get over it and realize it. Unless a Sixer supporter can get on here and give us a post as well thought out as roby's I am convinced that Allen DOES need to go.


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## shyFX325 (Jul 28, 2002)

*poo poo garbage*

while i also think roby has a smart basketball mind i think this post definetely has to be your low point. Just a bunch of mindless garble, so how again is philly gonna trade AI and KVH for rip, and melo, nevertheless give up camby and skita, who is gonna be a balla, too. That post only gets one star, sorry bredren


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## shyFX325 (Jul 28, 2002)

but yes dont get it twisted AI needs to go. No team will ever go anywhere when they bring players in only to compliment one player, by compliment i mean not really shoot that much and pass alot to AI. AI will never win an NBA championship or even make it to a conference final at this rate, and to tell you the truth that makes me happy. Actually let me rephrase me first thought .... AI needs to stay exactly where he is, ild hate to have him traded to a team i do like just for him to ruin all the team chemistry.


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## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

*HERES THE DEAL*

Alot of you don't live in Philly. and Do not see what Iverson means to this City. It is literally insane.


HERES A SIMPLE FORMULA.

IVERSON+TRADE=DISASTER, AND Philly becomes the NBA's lowest marketing team, behind the NBA's current worse.


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## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

*Re: HERES THE DEAL*



> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> Alot of you don't live in Philly. and Do not see what Iverson means to this City. It is literally insane.
> 
> 
> ...


I don't live in Philly, but I live close enough to it to understand that the Sixers aren't selling as well as they did a few years ago. I saw many games this season where tons of fans came dressed as seats, and it wasn't halloween.

Sure Iverson does a lot for the town, but so did Charles Barkley, let's face it, are the Sixers going to win the championship with Iverson? Are they going to make the playoffs with the players they have left with Iverson? 

It might be a hard pill to swallow, but hey, it's a journey down the rabbit hole that has to happen. Iverson has a clause to opt out of his contract after next season, whats' better.. to keep him and let him go on his own accord? Or get something back for him, now?

Either way, we're going to be bad pretty soon.

And in the long run, marketing means nothings, sure it's a nice number, but if you're team is winning, people will buy jerseys.. it's a fact.

-Tim


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## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HBK826</b>!
> If I'm wrong I apologize, but how do Camby and Van Horn match up salary wise if one makes 8 million less than the other?


Denver has well over $8 mil in cap room, so they can easily absorb the difference in salaries.


> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> I think your insane if you were meaning to say what you said.
> 
> Rip Hamilton will sell seats?? Hahahaha
> ...


I never said Rip would sell tickets, I said Carmelo would. Hahahaha.


> Originally posted by <b>PhillyPhanatic</b>!
> Sure Iverson does a lot for the town, but so did Charles Barkley, let's face it, are the Sixers going to win the championship with Iverson? Are they going to make the playoffs with the players they have left with Iverson?


Yeah, good point. If Philly can trade Charles Barkley--and man, they sure didn't get much for that guy, I believe they got Jeff Hornacek and a couple of scrubs, and that was in Barkley's prime--they obviously can trade Iverson.

I'm surprised that so many people in here actually think this isn't the most insane idea in the world. Now, I'm not saying that this deal WILL happen, nor am I saying that Iverson WILL get traded at all this summer or ever. I'm just saying that, if Philly wants to officially rebuild, then the best way to do it is to use Iverson to bail you out on some unwanted longterm salaries, and to get maximum value for Iverson.

I'm telling you guys, Larry Brown loves Iverson, and Larry Brown hates young players. Donnie Darko is 17 years old. This is going to be an interesting development. If Detroit holds onto Milicic, then Joe D. is going to want Brown to "develop" Milicic, i.e., take away playing time from a proven veteran--BROWN LOVES VETERANS--and give it to a raw teenager. The team may benefit in the long run from this strategy, but it won't benefit in the shortterm. Developing young guys and not being able to think longterm, this has really always been Brown's Achilles' heel, especially as he has gotten older (and more conservative).

If the team holds onto Milicic, there is bound to be conflict between Brown and Dumars over Milicic. Seems easier to just go ahead and see what you can get for Milicic, see if you can trade him for somebody who can put you over the top. Iverson can put this team over the top. I'm not saying that he WILL, but he CAN, he MIGHT. This Pistons supporting cast is infinitely better than anything he ever had to work with in Philly, that's for sure.


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## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

*yep*

That sounds like a great marketing plan..

Lets base our whole future on a College player, without even seeing him play in an NBA Arena. 

But wait, forget Iverson.


And their werent many empty seats this year at all man. Every time we went it was packed


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## HBK826 (Jun 1, 2003)

If Brown loves vetrans so much howcome he was willing to coach the Clips and Rockets before the Det job came open?


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## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

*tru!!*

good point buddy


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HBK826</b>!
> If Brown loves vetrans so much howcome he was willing to coach the Clips and Rockets before the Det job came open?


You missed Roby's point - 
He said AS Brown has aged, he has gotten worse at playing rooks. Since he is 62 - you don't think he's about to change - do you?

There is a reason for old cliches like: You can't teach an OLD dog new tricks.


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## (-) 0 † § I-I () † (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>HBK826</b>!
> If Brown loves vetrans so much howcome he was willing to coach the Clips and Rockets before the Det job came open?


Take a look at Phillys young talent, or lack there of. We have John Salmons, Samuel Dalembert, and if resigned Sam Clancy. These guys could be decent players, but they nevvvvvver get to play with Larry. IT seems as if Larry is always a win now guy, and doesnt feel the need to develop guys because he has been known to go plays and just leave when the situation is deteriorating. In my opinion its a good idea.


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## RangerC (Sep 25, 2002)

I think that Iverson/McKie for Hamilton/Milicic has all the hallmarks of a franchise-killing trade: 

1) trading big players for small (Milicic (7'1) for Iverson (5'11))
2) trading young players for old (Milicic (18) and Hamilton (25) for Iverson (28) and McKie (30))
3) trading good contracts for bad contracts (McKie's contract is as bad as they come)

If Detroit makes this trade, Dumars is certifiably insane. I wouldn't trade Iverson for Milicic straight up. AI is 28 in 5 days, has a history of injuries, and has declined the last 2 years after his MVP season - he may well have entered the decline phase of his career. On top of that, you give up Hamilton (not a star, but an excellent 2nd option) for garbage (McKie is injury prone, 30, and coming off a very poor season - plus that contract!). This also leaves Detroit with a frontcourt of 2 6'7 players (Thomas and Wallace) and a TINY team (6'3 PG, 5'11 SG, 6'8 SF, 6'7 PF, 6'7 C) that can't hope to match up with the huge WC teams.


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