# ESPN: Clippers Get A-



## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

> Los Angeles Clippers Grade: A-
> Round 1: Al Thornton (14)
> 
> Round 2: Jared Jordan (45)
> ...


Per ESPN Insider, seems like they actually know Thornton, and how ready he is to make an impact, unlike people here. Along with knowing how good of a PG Jordan could be.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

qross1fan said:


> Per ESPN Insider, seems like they actually know Thornton, and how ready he is to make an impact, unlike people here. Along with knowing how good of a PG Jordan could be.


You got that right Q, people here don't seem to realize the kind of talent Thornton really possesses. I love both of these picks and concur with ESPN's draft day evaluation. :clap2:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Can someone please explain to me why Clipper fans are so pissed about the Thornton pick? Clips get a solid scorer in Thornton, making it easier to move Maggette. Thornton is probably the most NBA ready player from the draft right now.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

HB said:


> Can someone please explain to me why Clipper fans are so pissed about the Thornton pick? Clips get a solid scorer in Thornton, making it easier to move Maggette. Thornton is probably the most NBA ready player from the draft right now.


Infatuation with Nick Young, plain and simple. It's only on this board where Clipper fans are pissed, all of the ones I know personally are ecstatic.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

qross1fan said:


> Infatuation with Nick Young, plain and simple. It's only on this board where Clipper fans are pissed, all of the ones I know personally are ecstatic.


It's so funny, I guess most of the posters here are die-hard Trojan fans or something. Doesn't make sense otherwise.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

HB said:


> Can someone please explain to me why Clipper fans are so pissed about the Thornton pick? Clips get a solid scorer in Thornton, making it easier to move Maggette. Thornton is probably the most NBA ready player from the draft right now.


Thornton is gonna be an NBA small forward, he'll be 24 this season, has little upside.... 

Right now, we have Maggette (better), Tim Thomas (better), Qross (defender, but probably better overall), James Singleton (EXACTLY THE SAME KIND OF PLAYER & buried on the bench), Yaroslav Korolev ("Potentially" better, age 20, never got a chance to play).

At the guard spots, we got: Sam Cassell (age 38), Cuttino Mobley (age 31) & some scrubs.

The Jordan pick was great, but we could've solidified both guard spots for the long term by picking Young (or Critteon, even Stuckey) + Jordan....instead we picked our deepest position.

Now we're gonna need to have a fire sale on Small Forwards if Thornton is gonna play... and if no trades for Thomas/Maggette work out? Then what?


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

How does he have "little upside"? He's 24, not 34. An NBA-ready player who can step in and hit the ground running is a bad thing? Tim Thomas is a mediocre NBA player who has one skill: shooting. Q-Ross is a defensive specialist only, with little offensive ability. Singleton and Korolev were on their way out the door anyway, and not nearly as talented as Thornton is. Singleton was an energy player, but essentially a garbage man. He got most of his points off put-backs, he could not create plays the way Thornton can. Maybe a Maggette deal is now imminent, I don't know, but whether or not Corey is moved this team was still improved by both of their draft picks. The whole summer is still ahead of us and there are more moves to come, don't panic just yet.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

ESPN is full of it, and anyone who says that its factual thornton was a good pick for the clippers is full ot if as well. Could thornton end up being a star? Of course, but if you say its a guarantee, its all nonsense. LIke im sure some people when monta ellis was chosen in the second round, said he may be the next gilbert arenas. Would they have been correct? NO NO NO NO, because they were just basing it off of homerism or guessing. Monta ellis up until that point showed ZERO to say that he would be an arenas, otherwise he would have been picked higher.

Could thornton become a star? Yes, but it would not be based on the facts, that no one seems to want to try to question.

Fact 1: Singleton has proven himself when given the opportunity in this system, is around the same age, is a similar player as thornton's style, (less than half the salary) yet could not get playing time for this coach. 

Fact 2: Thornton cannot play SG.

Fact 3: thornton will not take any PF minutes away from Elton Brand.

Fact 4: Thornton cannot play PG, nor center. 

Fact 5: For a big part of the year (when cassell was healthy) Ross was the starter, maggette on the bench. This year, cassell supposedly is healthy. Ross figures to have a big role again..it would not surprise anyone if maggette was in dunleavvy's doghouse. So maggette some games, or most games we might see coming off of the bench again. Dunleavvy likes to use maggette at SF because of his lack of ball handling skills. It would be a fact to say that thornton does not take any SF minutes away from maggette. 

Fact 6: Dunleavvy likes to insert Thomas as the first big off of the bench, and even at times play him together with kaman and brand, due to his 3 point shooting. Its a fact that thornton does not get minutes over thomas for 3 point shooting since hes no where close to be as good a shooter as thomas. 

Fact 7: Drafting someone who could play either PF and/or center (Smith? Williams?) would have been guaranteed playing time, taking any aaron williams or paul davis minutes. 

Fact 8: Drafting someone who could play either PG and/or SG (Bellineli? Stuckey? Crittenton?) would have been guaranteed playing time, inasmuch as cassell is currently the only signed PG on the roster, and Mobley being the only "true" SG on the roster. 

Fact 9: Drafting someone who could play SG/SF (Young? Fernandez?) would have even challenged for a starting spot right away, as they would only need to beat out Mobley. 

These are the facts, as the team stands right now.

Can thornton become great? Yes, but a lot of things that arent givens right now would have to happen:

1. Maggette would need to be injured most of the season.
2. Maggette would need to be traded.
3. One of the above would need to happen to brand or thomas.
4. Singleton needs to be let go for nothing (happened already) to get him at least a couple minutes of playing time.
5. He would have to get over his "weaknesses" which happen to be exactly the pet peeves dunleavvy has: ball handling, decision making, relying a lot on atheltiscm, no passing whatsover, turnovers. 

Ive said it about 20 times, im not knocking al thornton. He could start on some teams in the league. Just as it standed on draft day, he was not the right choice for THIS team, THIS coach, THIS pick.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

He has little upside because in the last 10 years its not common for 25 year old rookies to show huge growth over their first few years, especially ones who werent superstars where they came from (college or europe). Lets take some of the best PF's and SF's in the game.

First lets do the biggest scoring SF;s according to espn:
Anthony, James, Carter, Tmac - all drafted an average like 4 years younger than thornton, all became stars way before 24 even. 

Next batch: Howard, Artest, Deng, Miller
Howard drafted at age 22, when he was thorntons age he had been a starter what 3 years? and a decent one at that. Artest, Deng, Miller all drafted average 4 years younger than thornton, all solid vets or stars by the time they were thorntons age.

Next batch: Iguadola, Davis, Maggette, Smith
All drafted an average of 4+ years before thornton, all by the time they were thorntons age (some not even there yet), were solid starters. Were already reaching players who dont even start (maggette) on the clippers a lot, were out of "star" range, but lets keep going one more

Next batch: Jackson, Patterson, korver, Prince
all drafted an average of 2 years before thornton, all solid players either right away, or before they were thornton's age. 

I could keep going, is there anyone even in the top 40 SF's who didnt start their career before thornton? You look at the PF list, youll find a similar situation.


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

To me, that's simply a symptom of the recent swell of underclassmen entering the draft. It's becoming extremely uncommon for a player to stay in college for four years these days, let alone a player who redshirts and stays for five. Nearly all of the players you mentioned jumped for the pros after only one college season, or straight from the high school ranks, and a majority of them did not start immediately, nor did they make a significant impact on their respective teams during their first or second years. In this case, Thornton will not have to sit on the bench while he develops, he'll be ready to go from day one. This is what college is supposed to do, prepare it's players for the NBA within a 4 year structure. For that reason, I don't think your argument carries much weight. If you go back to the 80's you would find very different numbers as it pertains to the ages of incoming players. It's only a sign of the current times, but not in any way a rule-of-thumb as I see it. Go back twenty years and look at the 1987 draft as an example: the average age of a first round pick was 22-23 years old, as opposed to 2005 where the average decreased to between 20-21.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Showtime87 said:


> To me, that's simply a symptom of the recent swell of underclassmen entering the draft. It's becoming extremely uncommon for a player to stay in college for four years these days, let alone a player who redshirts and stays for five. Nearly all of the players you mentioned jumped for the pros after only one college season, or straight from the high school ranks, and a majority of them did not start immediately, nor did they make a significant impact on their respective teams during their first or second years. In this case, Thornton will not have to sit on the bench while he develops, he'll be ready to go from day one. This is what college is supposed to do, prepare it's players for the NBA within a 4 year structure. For that reason, I don't think your argument carries much weight. If you go back to the 80's you would find very different numbers as it pertains to the ages of incoming players. It's only a sign of the current times, but not in any way a rule-of-thumb as I see it. Go back twenty years and look at the 1987 draft as an example: the average age of a first round pick was 22-23 years old, as opposed to 2005 where the average decreased to between 20-21.


I swear to god, you've gotta be his agent, or cousin or something.

Anyways, I was 6 years old in 1987. The league has completely changed since then. So most of your argument is nonsense.

And you keep saying "he's ready to go".... go where? Explain to me how Maggette will get 30 minutes, Qross (Dunleavy's favorite) 20 minutes, and Tim Thomas 20 minutes?? 

For a guy that's "ready to go," how many minutes do you honestly think he'll get? Singleton & Korolev got like a combined 5 minutes during their tenure.


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## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

yaw sound like female doggz...you need to shut the **** up and appreciate what we have...this is our best draft since before onowokandi. i love nick young too but thornton is a very good player that can improve. ****, he hasen't even played in the summer league yet...i know you guy's dont like me, but thrnton and diaz are gonna kill the summer league. j.j. is too...you must either be rich or a spoiled brat...vada


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## DaFranchise (Jun 29, 2005)

MR. VADA said:


> yaw sound like female doggz...you need to shut the **** up and appreciate what we have...this is our best draft since before onowokandi. i love nick young too but thornton is a very good player that can improve. ****, he hasen't even played in the summer league yet...i know you guy's dont like me, but thrnton and diaz are gonna kill the summer league. j.j. is too...you must either be rich or a spoiled brat...vada


Dont like you? I dont even know who the hell you are. Relax, we are allowed to express our frustrations, that's why they invented these forums. I am still going to root for the kid even though I dislike the pick. I hope that I am completely wrong about AT.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

DaFranchise said:


> Dont like you? I dont even know who the hell you are. Relax, we are allowed to express our frustrations, that's why they invented these forums. I am still going to root for the kid even though I dislike the pick. I hope that I am completely wrong about AT.


Yep, I haven't heard any of the regular posters (including myself) badmouth thornton, we all generally agree he's a good player. He's good, but doesn't make the team any better because we're strong at the SF spot already.

It's the clip's management we're pissed at for making the WRONG choice, not the same as choosing a BAD player.


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## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

i have no beef with you da franchise...maggs or thornton is trade bait...vada


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## Showtime87 (Jun 27, 2005)

leidout said:


> I swear to god, you've gotta be his agent, or cousin or something.
> 
> Anyways, I was 6 years old in 1987. The league has completely changed since then. So most of your argument is nonsense.
> 
> ...


I'm making sense, that's the difference. I was only refuting the argument using facts to back up my statement. Just because he's not 20 years old doesn't mean he won't be a good pro, that's what didn't make any sense. As for playing time, where were the minutes for Nick Young going to come from? Cuttino Mobley is still the starting SG as far as I know.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Showtime87 said:


> I'm making sense, that's the difference. I was only refuting the argument using facts to back up my statement. Just because he's not 20 years old doesn't mean he won't be a good pro, that's what didn't make any sense. As for playing time, where were the minutes for Nick Young going to come from? Cuttino Mobley is still the starting SG as far as I know.


You ignored my question about where Thornton's minutes were going to come from. Please answer, as it's very valid.

Mobley will be 32, he's played thru nagging injuries most of the last 2 seasons. The reason he did this is because there is no competent backup at SG, with Nick Young playing about 18 minutes this season (so mobley can play 30), then the next season his minutes will increase and might even start. 

There, i've answered your question, now please explain how many minutes you expect Thornton to play & where they will come from, since you believe this is such a great pick.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Clips fans don't like the pick because Thornton is a poor fit. He would have been a much better fit on the Lakers and Crittenton on the Clippers.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

They just waived Singleton, which am thinking is because of Thornton


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

yup. amazing. singleton probably the superior player, already knows the system, has been a pro 3 years, and was like on a 600,000 dollar contract. So we waste a lottery pick, let singleton go for nothing, and are going to pay 2 million or whatever the 14th pick gets for a guy who, as a singleton clone will not get much burn. 

And instead of getting a gasol or grey who probably could make the team, since they could then dump williams or davis, they get jordan. I would have liked to see them trade a future second at least to get one of those guys in addition to jordan.


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## DaFranchise (Jun 29, 2005)

HKF said:


> Clips fans don't like the pick because Thornton is a poor fit. He would have been a much better fit on the Lakers and Crittenton on the Clippers.


Someone nailed it right on the head. Its not that we dont like Thornton, it just wasnt a pressing need as PG or SG. I guess Dumbleavy is still hoping LIvy makes a miracle recovery.


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## DatSupadoopaballer (Aug 26, 2003)

why is everyone or the majority of people still saying he cant come back. he's ahead of schedule and will be an important part of this team for years to come. Thorton wasn't a bad pick i wouldve preferred nick young but maybe the clippers saw something in him that nick young cant do. PLus we can finally move corey for a quality shooting guard. We also got a sure thing in thorton becasue even the clippers management knows that we can get to the playoffs and we cant wait on potential we needed talent and thorton brings that right now talent.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

when only one player in nba history has come back really good from that kind of knee injury (and wasnt near as bad) (amare), its not exactly time for optimism. Plus, even livingston at his career best was what, a 9 and 5 guy?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I still don't see why you trade Maggette to start Thornton, unless you're getting a starting point guard for him. Is someone like Jarrett Jack really worth Corey Maggette? If they could get Ben Gordon, then I would say do it and Thornton becomes a spectacular pick. However, I doubt Paxson would move Gordon.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

HKF said:


> I still don't see why you trade Maggette to start Thornton, unless you're getting a starting point guard for him. Is someone like Jarrett Jack really worth Corey Maggette? If they could get Ben Gordon, then I would say do it and Thornton becomes a spectacular pick. However, I doubt Paxson would move Gordon.


Exactly why many of us our pissed off about this pick. Sure we might get a good trade, but that's a stretch, hell we might not end up trading at all!


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

DatSupadoopaballer said:


> why is everyone or the majority of people still saying he cant come back. he's ahead of schedule and will be an important part of this team for years to come.


Concerning Livingston:
If he tore his PCL, i'd say _"sure he can recover fully."_

If he tore his PCL + MCL, i'd say _"well... it's possible he can recover."_

If he tore his PCL + MCL + ACL, i'd say _"it'll take a small miracle, but the door might still be slightly open."_

If he tore his PCL + MCL + ACL + Dislocated his left patella, i'd say _"you're crazy."_

If he tore his PCL + MCL + ACL + Dislocated his left patella & tibia-femoral, i'd ask _"so where's the leg now?"_

If he tore his PCL + MCL + ACL + Dislocated his left patella & tibia-femora & right patella + tore cartilidge in his right shoulder + lower back strain + missed 183 games over 4 seasons.... i'd say _"ya know what, you're absolutely right, he'll be back better than ever and never get hurt again!"_


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## DatSupadoopaballer (Aug 26, 2003)

leidout said:


> Concerning Livingston:
> If he tore his PCL, i'd say _"sure he can recover fully."_
> 
> If he tore his PCL + MCL, i'd say _"well... it's possible he can recover."_
> ...


yeah thats nice u know how much he hurt but he'll be back the doctors even said he'll be fine


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

DatSupadoopaballer said:


> yeah thats nice u know how much he hurt but he'll be back the doctors even said he'll be fine


I think they said something more like: "Don't worry, he'll live."


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## Futurama_Fanatic (Jul 21, 2005)

leidout said:


> I think they said something more like: "Don't worry, he'll live."


:lol: 

i like livingston and i hope he can back but leidout is right, he has gotten injured way too much over the last few years. hopefully he can make a comeback but i realistically don't see that happening.


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## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

leidout said:


> Concerning Livingston:
> If he tore his PCL, i'd say _"sure he can recover fully."_
> 
> If he tore his PCL + MCL, i'd say _"well... it's possible he can recover."_
> ...



i'm one of the biggest livy supporters, but i gotta admit that was funny...:biggrin:


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## TakingitbyStorm (Jul 1, 2007)

yamaneko said:


> Fact 7: Drafting someone who could play either PF and/or center (Smith? Williams?) would have been guaranteed playing time, taking any aaron williams or paul davis minutes.
> 
> Fact 8: Drafting someone who could play either PG and/or SG (Bellineli? Stuckey? Crittenton?) would have been guaranteed playing time, inasmuch as cassell is currently the only signed PG on the roster, and Mobley being the only "true" SG on the roster.
> 
> ...


Yamaneko I think that the Clipper might have been trying to pull off some trades to get some players like that. It is all rumor but they were said to be impressed with Bellini and I think Williams. I just don't think they were able to make it work. I wanted Williams for sure, but I don't like our track record with young players with problems.


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