# Duhon SIGNS offer sheet from Toronto; SCORE/ESPN1000 confirms rumor



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=405544&sid=e58ea6036e220726ba2a0e76391c4a70

"Duhon will be receiving an offer within the next couple days from the Raptors, this is from a very reliable source. Not sure of the dollars but we will see."


This rumor was posted by "north side," and it was his first post. Usually that's a bad sign for reliability of information. I usually trust rumors more if they are from a frequent poster. north side goes on to say he got the information from a friend of Duhon.

Eh, it does make some sense. Alston has been a coach's nightmare in his first year up there. Meanwhile, Ukic spurned Toronto after the draft, and they signed Jose Calderon, but I have no idea how good he is. Alvin Williams is still on the payroll for a while yet, but I don't expect any more ball out of him, sadly. It looks like the door could be open for Duhon to start there, whether Rafer likes it or not. 

Again, let me restate that this is the worst kind of rumor, brought to our attention by a source we don't even know. Take it for what it's worth. We know the Bulls and Du haven't signed yet, and the only reason I can see for that is that Chris is out looking for a better offer. Maybe the offer sheet comes soon.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*

Well I heard the Bulls are about to tender an offer to Eddy Curry in a few days starting at about 7 or 8 million.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*



sloth said:


> Well I heard the Bulls are about to tender an offer to Eddy Curry in a few days starting at about 7 or 8 million.


From where did you hear this, sloth?


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> From where did you hear this, sloth?


A reliable source. The same reliable source that told me Jamal Crawford burnt down the children's hospital.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*



sloth said:


> A reliable source. The same reliable source that told me Jamal Crawford burnt down the children's hospital.


You've been talking to Ron Cey lately? 

-------------

Anyway, it would make plenty of sense for Toronto to offer Duhon a contract. However, that by itself makes it unlikely Toronto is going to do it.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*



Darius Miles Davis said:



> http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=405544&sid=e58ea6036e220726ba2a0e76391c4a70
> 
> "Duhon will be receiving an offer within the next couple days from the Raptors, this is from a very reliable source. Not sure of the dollars but we will see."
> 
> ...


It does make sense for Toronto. And I don't think they've spent any of their exception money either, so they have the means to make an offer. I only hope that it doesn't exceed $3M per year, if this is at all true. We'll see, I suppose.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*

i was dubious. but check the post from "michael jackson" later in the thread- he claims that ESPN radio in chicago is saying that duhon HAS SIGNED an offer sheet with the raptors and bulls have seven days to match. no word on $/yrs. 


can any local chicago guys confirm this report?? thanks.


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*

Whilst it is natural to quesiton someone whose first post is something like this, it's worth remembering that the guy who broke the Jay Williams story whose name I forgot......well, that was his first post. He was widely grilled, but he was right. I guess there's a lot of lurkers. Time will tell if it's true. And if it is, it's not a problem.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*

I put 720 the score on miz, they doing some commericals right now.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*



sloth said:


> I put 720 the score on miz, they doing some commericals right now.


Yeah, gotta love that Santo/Bernsie midday show...


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*

Someone who is in Chicago, please turn on ESPN radio 1000 and report back. I can't get the stream of the local sports updates. Maybe that's what poster Michael Jackson meant. 

He, by the way, has over 6,000 posts on realgm.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*

No mention on there update, on to ESPN 1000


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*



sloth said:


> No mention on there update, on to ESPN 1000


Thanks sloth. Hmm, hard to believe that Michael Jackson, longtime realgm poster, would be posting BS. 

There's no mention of this on ESPN News TV.

I'm beginning to doubt there is any validity to this.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*

i have espn1000 on right now. last bit of the dan patrick show. maybe they'll have something at the top of the hour. stay tuned.

and thanks sloth! i was listening too. 

:smilewink


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*confirmed on the Score: Duhon signs offer sheet w/Raps*

It's true!

Just hear Mark Vasko (sp?) say it at the 3:20 update Chicago time.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*

ok. just heard it. on espn1000 radio.

"raptors organization reporting they have *SIGNED Chris Duhon to an offer sheet.* the bulls now have seven days to match"

no mention of $/years


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*



mizenkay said:


> ok. just heard it. on espn1000 radio.
> 
> "raptors organization reporting they have *SIGNED Chris Duhon to an offer sheet.* the bulls now have seven days to match"
> 
> no mention of $/years


You can merge my new one together with this one Miz. Just make sure to change the title of the thread. This is no longer just a realgm rumor.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: confirmed on the Score: Duhon signs offer sheet w/Raps*

yeah. they just reported it on espn1000 too. say he's actually SIGNED the offer sheet. so it's pax will match or have fun playing in toronto, chris.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*

Can't wait to hear the details.

It's like _having something to actually talk about!!!_

How cool!


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*

Well, it would definitely make sense from Toronto's point of view. 

I still think some of the people who think Duhon can/should sign a meager contract for something just above the minimum are in for a rude awakening, but I've already discussed that.

It'll be interesting to see what the $$$/years are. 

This is a completely speculative guess, but I'll wager it being around what Damon Stoudemire supposedly got, in the neighborhood of 4 years/17 million, if this rumour is indeed true. 

And hopefully.....it isn't!


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*

Soooo...How much is too much? What is the lowest number Toronto can come up with that would make you say "Ehhhh...Don't match that, Pax?"


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*

You know, the timing of this may be quite unfortunate. We'll have to agree to sign him in the next seven days, and amnesty cuts have to be made by the 15th. If this would have happened a few days later, we might have had a chance to grab an amnesty player that we like better than Duhon first. That's likely impossible now, unless the amnesty player we like gets cut early a la Derek Anderson.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Soooo...How much is too much? What is the lowest number Toronto can come up with that would make you say "Ehhhh...Don't match that, Pax?"


Tom, 

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?t=187126

This thread was started about a week ago.

Personally, I think it would be wise to match anything up to the MLE.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

um, i guess this qualifies, in the words of duhon's agent bill duffy, as "sneaking one by the bulls".


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*

BTW, props to the new poster north side over at realgm. You must be ready to be busted on if you post new info with your first post. He was right on the money this time.

As for Duhon, I'd go anywhere up to 4 million. Over that, I might make a hard push for Jay Williams and wish Chris the best.


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## greekadonis (Jul 28, 2005)

so what happens if du signed an offer sheet with raptors for the full mle?i smell problem


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*



rosenthall said:


> Well, it would definitely make sense from Toronto's point of view.
> 
> I still think some of the people who think Duhon can/should sign a meager contract for something just above the minimum are in for a rude awakening, but I've already discussed that.
> 
> ...


Hopefully it isn't, but I expect it's substantially more than the Bulls were offering, or otherwise the Raptors wouldn't bother making the offer in the first place, as it'd be a certainty that the Bulls match.

That's the downside of telling someone to go out and get offers. If they get one, there's quite likely a higher premium than we would have faced than just negotiating internally.

Still, I expect anything Duhon isn't going to totally break the bank.


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## greekadonis (Jul 28, 2005)

how about a s&t
du
othella
pike

for

bonner
alston
1st round pick?


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Can't wait to hear the details.
> 
> It's like _having something to actually talk about!!!_
> 
> How cool!


LOL Yeah. 

I'm worried now. I'll guess it's like 4 years 15-16 million. Babcock is crazy enough to have even offered up 5 years. 


Come on someone. We need details, details!


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Finally Paxson is going to be forced to DU something.


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

greekadonis said:


> how about a s&t
> du
> othella
> pike
> ...


 If he's truly signed their sheet, there is no sign and trade. In a week, he's either there for nothing in return or back with the Bulls.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*

Oh yeah, and now my broken record: If we lose Duhon, we should get involved in the Jaric sweepstakes, hot and heavy.


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> Oh yeah, and now my broken record: If we lose Duhon, we should get involved in the Jaric sweepstakes, hot and heavy.


Finley also will be released by next Monday. Denver is saving their MLE for him. Should we offer it up for 2 years? 1 for sure, but I would guess Denver would give him 2 years.


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## onetenthlag (Jul 29, 2003)

Duhon for the MLE is a joke. He won't be the starter here when the Bulls are truly looking to contend - that's way too much money on a long term deal.

Jay Williams is looking better and better right now.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*



Darius Miles Davis said:


> Oh yeah, and now my broken record: If we lose Duhon, we should get involved in the Jaric sweepstakes, hot and heavy.




you know, bill duffy is jaric's agent too. and jay williams'. 

anyway, i agree with those who suspect the raptors really upped the ante here. my guess it's for four years. 16-17.5 million.

i bite the duhon bullet at 3.5 a year. so...

he's a nice player. but he is not special. good for him and i hope he has fun playing in canada.





:twocents:


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*



mizenkay said:


> you know, bill duffy is jaric's agent too. and jay williams'.
> 
> anyway, i agree with those who suspect the raptors really upped the ante here. my guess it's for four years. 16-17.5 million.
> 
> ...


The thing is, if we don't match Duhon, we have to do something of value with the MLE this year. LaFrentz, Finley, Jaric, Devin Brown, Croshere, Jay Williams (for less)...giving one of these good players somewhat in the vicinity of what we were going to pay Duhon is not going to cut any more into our 06 caproom than what we expected.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*



mizenkay said:


> you know, bill duffy is jaric's agent too. and jay williams'.
> 
> anyway, i agree with those who suspect the raptors really upped the ante here. my guess it's for four years. 16-17.5 million.
> 
> ...



Hmm. Considering how resistant he was to playing in Europe, I wonder how he'll like Toronto. Do you think he signed the sheet with confidence that the Bulls would match? The Raps to me do not seem like a great destination for Du, but I understand how a player at that level can't walk away from a good financial deal. 

I agree that I wouldn't want to go much higher than $3.5/per.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*



jnrjr79 said:


> Hmm. Considering how resistant he was to playing in Europe, I wonder how he'll like Toronto. Do you think he signed the sheet with confidence that the Bulls would match? The Raps to me do not seem like a great destination for Du, but I understand how a player at that level can't walk away from a good financial deal.
> 
> I agree that I wouldn't want to go much higher than $3.5/per.


It's a long way from Slidell, that's for sure.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

Let my Cameron go

1. Finley @ MLE for 3 years ( option on 3rd ). Brunson @ minimum
2. Jaric @ part MLE.( say $3M ) Brunson @ minimum

Duhon is not worth the MLE to be a back up or to start in an unbalanced guard attack

Kirk and FinDog backed by Gordon, Brunson and Basden works for me 

or

Kirk and Jaric backed by Gordon, Brunson , Pargo and Basden

Maybe we even pass on making a play for Finley and Jaric and throw Kirk and Ben out there and rely on Brunson, Pargo and Basden to back up

Then make a play for Raef LaFrentz in the Amnesty sweepstakes using our MLE ...with Austin Croshere the 2nd target

Bottom line is with the current composition of this team I would rather have one of Michael Finley, Marko Jaric , or Raef LaFrentz than Chris Duhon


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## nanokooshball (Jan 22, 2005)

sigh... i hope we keep duhon.... if not go for jay and jaric/finley

at least something interesting happened...


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> Let my Cameron go
> 
> 1. Finley @ MLE for 3 years ( option on 3rd ). Brunson @ minimum
> 2. Jaric @ part MLE.( say $3M ) Brunson @ minimum
> ...


 Brunson has already signed with Seattle, one year minimum deal.

Also, if Jaric is signing anywhere for only $3 million per, the Clips will just match.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Brunson is on the Sonics now, and I read a while back that the Clips would watch unless it is a S&T (Hence the Gooden for Jaric/Wilcox rumors back then).

Personally, I don't see Duhon more than a backup PG in a few years. Ben and Kirk will be starting, and Duhon can be a great backup PG, however, he would not be worth the money for that. 

However, I would do a S&T with the Clippers. I do think Jaric is a great fit for this team, and I read a while back that he would not have minded a backup role. 

Say if we let Duhon go, we can go for Wilcox (hopeful AD replacement in the future, and if he sucks, he's a FA and comes off the books) and Jaric for Pike (would suck going back to LAC) and future multiple 2nd rounders? Hell, I'd throw in a future first prolly, but it have to be in the distant future.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

The thing is the MLE is what $5M ?

Why bust chops about "no more than $4M or $3.5M ?

Why?

So we can sign Googs with the balance ?

Please 

At least if we limit Duhon to $3M we will at least have $2M of the MLE available and with that .. we may get lucky with Austin Croshere 

I can't see any teams offering him more than half the MLE if he is cut 

And at least for $2M per ..but on a longer term deal we may snag him on a platform of long term security for what may be his last contract.

I find it hugely depressing while everyone is out there putting away the honeys and hitting home runs..Huckleberry Pax is wooing Tom F'n Gugliotta

Yay

He'll show more courage and gumption in letting the squirt go and pursuing bigger and better game 

Show some balls Pax


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

MJG said:


> Brunson has already signed with Seattle, one year minimum deal.
> 
> Also, if Jaric is signing anywhere for only $3 million per, the Clips will just match.



Hadn't heard about Brunson. Thanks 

But there are other similar vet back up types that we could use for 10mpg and are productive

And with Jaric..yeah maybe . But we are talking about the Clips here

And isn't Jaric unrestricted ?

Livingston , Mobely and Maggette. Maybe they try and bring Kittles in cheap and add some role playing minimum types in the guard attack. Who knows


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Yeah, I am just going on the basis of what I heard with the Jaric/Wilcox for Gooden rumors. What I read a while back was that the Clips wanted other players than Gooden, but the Cavs wouldn't budge.

You know who would be a GREAT BACKUP, but isn't getting any offers at the moment (that I heard of)........ Dan Dickau. He had a great year. If we can get him cheaper than Duhon, I'd go for him actually.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

The Clips have also got $17M tied up across their 3 projected starters in the backcourt 

I'm sorry I just don't see the Clips paying $3M to $4M for a back up like Marko Jaric when they can pay the same amount of money for 2 or 3 players to be playing more minor minutes


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

theanimal23 said:


> Yeah, I am just going on the basis of what I heard with the Jaric/Wilcox for Gooden rumors. What I read a while back was that the Clips wanted other players than Gooden, but the Cavs wouldn't budge.
> 
> You know who would be a GREAT BACKUP, but isn't getting any offers at the moment (that I heard of)........ Dan Dickau. He had a great year. If we can get him cheaper than Duhon, I'd go for him actually.


Think how much more aerodynamically efficient he would be if he got rid of his wig 

Also .. if Krause were still GM maybe.. he had a thing for slow, unathletic white point guards who overcompensated with their short comings with further short comings in the way of their ordinary outside shot... Bryce Drew...Mutt Baloney... come to mind


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> The Clips have also got $17M tied up across their 3 projected starters in the backcourt
> 
> I'm sorry I just don't see the Clips paying $3M to $4M for a back up like Marko Jaric when they can pay the same amount of money for 2 or 3 players to be playing more minor minutes


Yeah exactly. Their future is Maggette, Mobley, and Livingston. They are not a team that will go over to long stretches to keep their players. I'd love for two things to happen:

Work a S&T for Jaric and Wilcox, or sign Dickau, and use the rest of the MLE on a Amnesty cut (Croshere, B. Grant, Lafrentz/Blount?)


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Sausage, 

What is your take on Dickau? I got the feeling you would be opposed to him. If so, how come? I'd just like to know your opinion. 

I can't think of any other PGs that are out there really. One guy who I think be great, but would probably command the whole MLE also is Earl Watson.


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

SausageKingofChicago said:


> The Clips have also got $17M tied up across their 3 projected starters in the backcourt
> 
> I'm sorry I just don't see the Clips paying $3M to $4M for a back up like Marko Jaric when they can pay the same amount of money for 2 or 3 players to be playing more minor minutes




Maybe this is just Clipper talk, but they sound pretty serious about keeping him. And Maggette is playing SF for them now while their 1st round pick may not even be in the league this year so they can easily find minutes for Jaric. 

http://www.latimes.com/sports/baske...741.story?coll=la-headlines-sports-nba-clippe



> Clippers Are Likely to Keep Jaric
> The restricted free-agent guard wants to leave L.A. in a sign-and-trade deal, but that desire, Baylor says, 'doesn't make any difference.'
> 
> Whether he likes it or not, Marko Jaric will be back playing for the Clippers next season, the club strongly suggested Wednesday.
> ...


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## kamego (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*



sloth said:


> A reliable source. The same reliable source that told me Jamal Crawford burnt down the children's hospital.


I live right by there. That would have been killer to traffic in the area lol


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

*Re: Realgm poster rumor: Duhon to receive offer from Toronto*

Finally some real Bulls news. Now, what does this mean? 

If it is for a just a little more than the first offer Pax made, we match. If it is 3 mill or more? I say good luck Duhon! Pax should feel no remorse. He gave Duhon a chance to play! 

Now, with the amnesty people coming up a week from today, this could get interesting. 

For the posters who say Chris may get the MLE, that is too much. I think 3 mill is too much for us here. Gordon will eventually take over Duhons spot anyway! We have pgs, more than enough. 

We will miss his defense. 

I am happy for Chris wanting more money and one way or the other he will get it.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

If we're ever seriously going to give JWill a workout, doing it in the next couple of days would make sense.


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

I've been trying to read up on what Calderon got to see what would have been the most Duhon would have got because he cut into their MLE last week. I haven't found any terms yet, but this is pretty interesting.



> The thing is, the Raptors don't have much monetary wiggle room as they divvy up their $5-million US mid-level salary-cap exception. They've signed Calderon and will re-sign forward Pape Sow any day now. They claim they still want to keep forward Matt Bonner, but their stance remains solid with regard to salary.


Toronto Sun



> The Raptors' financial realities hit home hard when an unproven 23-year-old guard from Spain was introduced as what is likely the team's most significant addition of the summer.
> 
> General manager Rob Babcock said yesterday he's pretty much tapped out after adding Spanish national team point guard Jose Calderon while saving some money for Pape Sow and — perhaps — a little bit for Matt Bonner.
> 
> ...


They've already signed Calderon. The guy is leaving his team in Spain so I would expect he got at least 1.5 million. Sow is still technically a free agent, but he's supposively has agreed to terms. Bonner would be out of the mix then if Duhon actually got to Toronto. I don't know if many of you have read up with the Bonner situation with the them but it's kind of ugly right now. They said they want him back but have hardly contacted him and he's upset about it. Babcock can figure even if they lose Du, the Bonner situation can be resolved yet. 

Maybe this offer sheet isn't so bad. It looks like it could be starting at worst case scenario 3 million. And if a Sow deal has been struck, he probably got around $750-900,000. Best case scenario for us, 2.5 or so to start. 

So assuming it's 3 million to start with, a 3 year deal would be 9.7 mill. 

A 4 year deal nets Duhon 13.4 million.

And a 5 year deal gets him 17.4. 

And remember, that's probably the worst it could be. Match the man. He's a good young PG and he will improve. We all know Chris has a terrific work ethic so he's not going to start slacking on us. And if we go in another direction in the future, this contract is not going to hold us back or be hard to deal off. In fact, if we needed extra caproom next year to sign someone, we could easily find a team under the cap to take him for nothing. I think his agent just wanted to ensure he got Chris the 3 million per he deserves.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Great info, ChiBulls.

Personally, I have absolutely no problem giving Duhon a longer term deal...but ONLY if the annual salary is moderate. For a workhorse like Duhon, I would feel like I'm getting a bargain if it's 5 years, $17M. That might actually be better for us than 3 years, $10M. Either way, we're paying him around $3M per year...except with the latter offer, we keep him for longer. I'm quite anxious to see what the numbers are for his offer sheet.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

ChiBulls2315 said:


> They've already signed Calderon. The guy is leaving his team in Spain so I would expect he got at least 1.5 million. Sow is still technically a free agent, but he's supposively has agreed to terms. Bonner would be out of the mix then if Duhon actually got to Toronto. I don't know if many of you have read up with the Bonner situation with the them but it's kind of ugly right now. They said they want him back but have hardly contacted him and he's upset about it. Babcock can figure even if they lose Du, the Bonner situation can be resolved yet.
> 
> Maybe this offer sheet isn't so bad. It looks like it could be starting at worst case scenario 3 million. And if a Sow deal has been struck, he probably got around $750-900,000. Best case scenario for us, 2.5 or so to start.
> 
> ...


Great analysis. I saw that Sow is supposed to be on board for the LLE. Some confustion if Calderon got any of the MLE but Babcock's quote seems pretty clear. 

And Pax will match a 2/3 MLE offer.

--------------------------

My first thought is why bother to make that kind of offer. But if the Raptors like Duhon and Duhon's agent is telling them Pax willn't go anything above $2M a year, why not take a chance at $3.5M? It's better than signing a guy like Dixon and Dooling.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

ChiBulls2315 said:


> I've been trying to read up on what Calderon got to see what would have been the most Duhon would have got because he cut into their MLE last week. I haven't found any terms yet, but this is pretty interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, like others have said.........great information. 

I didn't know about this Calderon guy, and thought that Toronto had the full MLE to work with. Even though everything's speculative at this point, your assumptions seem roughly accurate, and it sounds like they did offer a contract it would probably have to be about in the ranges that you suggested. 

And if that's the case, I'd say that bodes pretty well for us. A contract with yearly salaries of about 3.5 million is pretty reasonable, and I'd have to think that Pax would match.

We'll see.........


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

Now we just need to get a hold of some Raptor fans. They could probably give us some more detailed information about what Toronto might be offering, or how much they've eaten up into their MLE.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Let's say the offer sheet is too much to match. That means we have our full MLE. And check this out:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2127979

Abdur-Rahim says he doesn't want to sign with the Nets anymore, due to their second guessing after the physical. SAR doesn't have a history of knee injury, so maybe he would be an alternative? Just throwing it out there.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Great info, ChiBulls.
> 
> Personally, I have absolutely no problem giving Duhon a longer term deal...but ONLY if the annual salary is moderate. For a workhorse like Duhon, I would feel like I'm getting a bargain if it's 5 years, $17M. That might actually be better for us than 3 years, $10M. Either way, we're paying him around $3M per year...except with the latter offer, we keep him for longer. I'm quite anxious to see what the numbers are for his offer sheet.


From the team's perspective, I'd do that in a heartbeat, but I don't think a longer term deal at that pay level is a good deal for Chris. I think a 3 year deal, starting at $3.5 -- 3.8M, with max raises, is probably what he has, and if so, Pax would and should match.

I think tying himself into a longer term deal may not be great for Du, and he'd end up in a Scottie Pippen contract situation. If we match a 3 year deal, we'd have his Bird Rights, and he will have had time to make a name for himself in the league. Then he'll be a full-on market player FA, like the 4th year 1st round RFAs from his draft class, except he won't be restricted.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

I'll have to dig through the quote archives and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

But didn't Paxson say he was going to match offers on our free agents? That signing our FAs to offer sheets was fruitless?


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> I'll have to dig through the quote archives and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> But didn't Paxson say he was going to match offers on our free agents? That signing our FAs to offer sheets was fruitless?



He did say something to that effect. I can't remember though if it was in reference only to Tyson and Curry or if Duhon was included as well.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> From the team's perspective, I'd do that in a heartbeat, but I don't think a longer term deal at that pay level is a good deal for Chris. I think a 3 year deal, starting at $3.5 -- 3.8M, with max raises, is probably what he has, and if so, Pax would and should match.
> 
> I think tying himself into a longer term deal may not be great for Du, and he'd end up in a Scottie Pippen contract situation. If we match a 3 year deal, we'd have his Bird Rights, and he will have had time to make a name for himself in the league. Then he'll be a full-on market player FA, like the 4th year 1st round RFAs from his draft class, except he won't be restricted.


Your point is definintely taken, TB#1. It's a catch-22 though...Duhon could go for security by locking into a longer term contract, but with the risk of losing out on a bigger payday later on. Or he could protect himself from the possibility of injury or declining play by getting as much guarenteed money as he can right now, regardless of how long the contract is. Eddy Curry will likely face a similar predicament.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I can't say for sure what Calderon has signed with the Raptors for, but according to our general manager Rob Babcock, Calderon had offers from other NBA and Euroleague teams, so I can't see him getting much less than $1.5M to start.

Pape Sow will likely be a minimum contract signing.

So the remainder of the MLE (approx. $3.5M) is there for the taking. I doubt we'd offer him all of that because it's almost what Alston is making to be our starting point guard (and less half of what the ailing Alvin Williams makes).

You can either assume we have offered Duhon most of it because the odds of us being able to sign Bonner should the Bulls match is low, IMO. He'll feel like leftovers.

Or maybe we've made an offer that Chicago can easily match in order to provoke Matt and his agent into getting a deal done (before their ship has sailed).

Either way, nice to have something to talk about, as others have already pointed out in this thread.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

I didnt read all 5 pages of this thread, I am assuming this is confirmed.

Duhon was a nice player for the Bulls this year. I like him. He can help any team win. Now having said that, if it was Duhon vs the chance of Jwill coming back (lets say its 25%), id take Jwill. Pax is in a dare to great situation here. Duhon might be gone. But Jwill could be back. And if that fails, Pargo is there. Plus I am sure Pax would like to move Kirk back to the 1 though I think its fairly proven he is better being a 2 guard with some skills of the 1 (heck my man VV basically even agreed with that). So let Duhon walk I say. Take a chance on Jay Williams. If it works out itll be a huge boost to the franchise.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

Animal... I am just not a fan of Dickau. Too slow. I think "ordinary" would be a kind way to label him 

ChiBulls. Good find on Jaric. But as much as what they claim Marko and Bill Duffy are posturing..same with Baylor and Dunleavy . I actually thought he was UFA but my guess is is that they will bring Ross and Chalmers back

And look for a vet 3 and a vet point guard

Brunson was a good fit there who had a great season for them last year, and statistically , produced similarly to Duhon . 

Having Brunson and Chalmers behind Livingston and Ross backing Mobely would have been a workable guard rotation .. at stuff all back up cost .. then only needing a vet 3 and maybe a scrub like a Linton Johnson/ Tremaine Fowlkes type to back up Maggette.

More bang for the buck

I don't see them committing decent money over time to Wilcox next summer and its interesting that Wilcox and Jaric were linked in trade rumours over the summer ( even if it was for the bogus and non sensical Drew Gooden addition )

I would not be surprised if Jaric is moved in a S and T ( possibly with Wilcox )

Nene and Najera makes some sense 
CLIPS

*

Nene
Brand
Maggette
Mobely
Livingston

Kaman
Najera
Jalen Rose ( amnesty cast off /pick up )
Ross
Vet point guard addition/Chalmers

*

NUGZ

*

Camby
Martin
Anthony
Jaric
Miller

Elson
Wilcox
Kleiza
Lenard/Hodge
Boykins

*


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

I was always one of the strongest Jay Williams advocates but I think it would be a mistake to bring him back and he is a potential chemistry killer

Looking back at Jay .. even his days at Duke.. its all about Jay in how he approaches the game in that he played the game with a God complex when perhaps in retrospect he had no right to have that level of arrogance in how he approached the game ( meaning arrogance not matching up to his abilities )

There is a bit of con man element in Jay Williams the basketballer

Anyway.. in looking forward and not looking back I who wants the story to be Jay and the disruptions that go along with that to the possible detriment of the team

Evidence is is that we've moved on and we're not going back

Good call on this issue too

Let sleeping dogs lay


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

I hope we match and if we dont I hope we are offering the full Mle to Jaric and not waiting the full 7 days to decide it.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Wow, the realgm Raps board is crazy! They have 514 posts in their Duhon thread to our 67. Who says there's no passion for basketball in Toronto?

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=405644&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I keep on snooping around over there to see if anyone gets confirmation on the amount of the Duhon offer sheet.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I'm watching CSN Sportsnite as I type this, but there's been absolutely no mention of Duhon so far...nor anything Bulls-related, for that matter.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Nevermind, Sportsnite just reported the Duhon offer sheet. They said that no financial terms are available yet...however, they received word from the Tribune that Pax WILL match the offer sheet. It sounded more than just normal speculation...the way they said it, sounds like Duhon will remain a Bull.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Looks like Duhon took one for the team. NOT!

The obvious thing to mention is that he either brought the offer to Pax and he didn't want to turn it into an S&T, or he DIDN'T bring it to pax. Before signing the offer, that is.

My take is he's gone.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Looks like Duhon took one for the team. NOT!
> 
> The obvious thing to mention is that he either brought the offer to Pax and he didn't want to turn it into an S&T, or he DIDN'T bring it to pax. Before signing the offer, that is.
> 
> My take is he's gone.


I'm not sure. Paxson seems to have changed his strategy from "proactive" to "see what kind of offers you can get." He seems to be comfortable with the idea of his restricted free agents exploring their options. 

Let's see how much the offer is first of all.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> I'm not sure. Paxson seems to have changed his strategy from "proactive" to "see what kind of offers you can get." He seems to be comfortable with the idea of his restricted free agents exploring their options.
> 
> Let's see how much the offer is first of all.


Address this question:

Why didn't Duhon bring an S&T opportunity to Pax? (It's also an opportunity for Pax to just match on the spot).

If he did let Paxson know, Paxson didn't bother.

There's a chance Pax will match. I don't get that impression.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Address this question:
> 
> Why didn't Duhon bring an S&T opportunity to Pax? (It's also an opportunity for Pax to just match on the spot).
> 
> ...


I'm guessing he did bring it up to Pax, and Pax told him to match it. In other words, Pax would mean "Sure, that's more money than we have offered you thus far, but is it really worth the risk that I might not match? You might really have to play for Toronto, you know." That's Pax's last bargaining Chip, to see if Duhon really means to go through with it. If Paxson is lucky, Duhon caves and signs for less, which he didn't do, so now we're here.

That's my theory.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Address this question:
> 
> Why didn't Duhon bring an S&T opportunity to Pax? (It's also an opportunity for Pax to just match on the spot).
> 
> ...


Why didn't Elton Brand bring a S&T opportunity to Elgin Baylor when he received his max offer sheet from the Miami Heat 2 years ago? If he did, Baylor didn't match on the spot. But he did match the offer sheet and retained Brand. 

Why didn't Ricky Davis do the same thing with the Cavs 3 years ago when he signed an offer sheet from the Wolves? The Cavs didn't match on the spot, but they still matched the offer sheet and retained Davis.

There's precedent for this. Perhaps Pax didn't match on the spot because Duffy could've been bluffing. No way of knowing for sure, but I do know that the Tribune has reported (via Sportsnite) that Pax will match the offer. I guess we'll see for sure relatively soon.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

If Pax lets Du walk, will this entice New Orleans to offer Tyson the max as they know that Paxson isn't true on his word of matching all offers? I think so.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Why didn't Elton Brand bring a S&T opportunity to Elgin Baylor when he received his max offer sheet from the Miami Heat 2 years ago? If he did, Baylor didn't match on the spot. But he did match the offer sheet and retained Brand.
> 
> Why didn't Ricky Davis do the same thing with the Cavs 3 years ago when he signed an offer sheet from the Wolves? The Cavs didn't match on the spot, but they still matched the offer sheet and retained Davis.
> 
> There's precedent for this. Perhaps Pax didn't match on the spot because Duffy could've been bluffing. No way of knowing for sure, but I do know that the Tribune has reported (via Sportsnite) that Pax will match the offer. I guess we'll see for sure relatively soon.


Well, my guess is Brand didn't think Sterling would match, and absolutely wanted to force the situation.

Same thing for Davis.

But Pax said he'd match, right? This seems like a lack of trust in Pax by Duhon, to me.

And we'll see within 7 days if your trust in management is well placed.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> But Pax said he'd match, right? This seems like a lack of trust in Pax by Duhon, to me.


Huh? How about this is the only way Duhon can get "x" much money and still play for the Bulls.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Well, my guess is Brand didn't think Sterling would match, and absolutely wanted to force the situation.
> 
> Same thing for Davis.
> 
> ...


Well, just to be clear, the only reason I think Pax will match is because it was reported from the Tribune less than an hour ago that he would. That's all I have to draw from right now, besides Paxson's previous statements. It sounds like we're gonna keep him. But it's hard to judge right now because we have no idea what the dollar figures are. It could be as small as 3 years, $8M, or as big as 4 years, $18M.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Looks like Duhon took one for the team. NOT!
> 
> The obvious thing to mention is that he either brought the offer to Pax and he didn't want to turn it into an S&T, or he DIDN'T bring it to pax. Before signing the offer, that is.
> 
> My take is he's gone.


Prepare to be wrong. Pax told Duhon to go sign the best offer he could.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> Prepare to be wrong. Pax told Duhon to go sign the best offer he could.


Think there's a price that Pax won't go above? (that price being below MLE)


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Think there's a price that Pax won't go above? (that price being below MLE)


Babcock said he already used part of the MLE. So Pax will match anything the Raptors have to offer. A full MLE offer might be a different story.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Good thinking ChiBulls

Given that the offer to Du is at most starting at $3.5M or so, I tend to think we'll match it.

That'd leave us $1.5M or so to sign an old fuddy like Googs.

I still don't see anyone out there as a potential amnesty cut that I think is really all that. Maybe LaFrentz, but it seems like he might not be cut anyway.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> Good thinking ChiBulls
> 
> Given that the offer to Du is at most starting at $3.5M or so, I tend to think we'll match it.
> 
> ...


The educated guesses on the raptors board is $3M for 4 years = $12M, or up to $3.5M, assuming they spent $1.5M of their cap space already (the actual amount isn't known).

$3.5M is more than 2x the only figure I've seen actually offered to Duhon (LLE).

The guys in the raptors forum think Babcock's strategy is sound. Make Du the offer now, making it tough for Paxson to choose between signing him or keeping his powder dry for an amnesty cut (particularly Finley).


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Until their contracts run out, while the timing of the payments may change, amnesty guys don't receive an extra dime by signing a bigger contract (MLE instead of LLE). 

I don't think the Amnesty guys are going to be an issue. Babcock must think the same thing or he really screwed up.

If this really is an issue,, strategically, Raptors should have made this offer a few days ago so the week to match ran out before the amnesty deadline.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> Until their contracts run out, while the timing of the payments may change, amnesty guys don't receive an extra dime by signing a bigger contract.
> 
> I don't think the Amnesty guys are going to be an issue. Babcock must think the same thing or he really screwed up.
> 
> If this really is an issue,, strategically, Raptors should have made this offer a few days ago so the week to match ran out before the amnesty deadline.


Strategically, the MLE is ~$5M, and Toronto hopes the bidding for for Finley quickly exceeds $1.5M to $2M (what the bulls would have left after signing Duhon).

I'm not sure you're right about the amnesty guys not getting an extra dime.

FWIW, I think Pax gambled and lost. His best move, IMO IS to resign Duhon.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

A few things. First, I don't understand why some of the posts say that Paxson should match when we don't, outside of some admittedly solid educated guesses, know what the terms are. 

Second, Paxson has seven days to match. I hope he takes all 7 just to make sure there isn't a better fit out there than whatever the terms of Du's offer sheet are. 

Finally, saying he'll match isn't the same thing as saying he'll match immediately. Based on what I've seen from Pax, he'll take his time with this thing and he'd be right to. Frankly, I'll be a little disappointed if he matches the offer quickly unless its already close to the Bulls' original offer to Du, which I doubt it is.

Its nice to have something to talk about that is real, though.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

It won't be the full MLE b/c calderone must have signed for more than the min.

I would Lu-uv the move, from a Raps perspective. I wanted to draft him.

If you don't match, I wish you luck finding a good replacement.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> A few things. First, I don't understand why some of the posts say that Paxson should match when we don't, outside of some admittedly solid educated guesses, know what the terms are.
> 
> Second, Paxson has seven days to match. I hope he takes all 7 just to make sure there isn't a better fit out there than whatever the terms of Du's offer sheet are.
> 
> ...


I think he should wait the 7 days, too. Whether he matches or not.

Two scenarios:

1) He resigns Du
2) He has a chance to sign someone else with too much of the MLE to resign Du.

I'm sure I would rather have Duhon than Finley, but that's me. If we're going to go with this young core and use Cap Space in 2006, then that's the plan.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

DaBullz said:


> I think he should wait the 7 days, too. Whether he matches or not.
> 
> Two scenarios:
> 
> ...


I'm with you 100% on all that.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

The Tribune writes:


> Chris Duhon has signed an offer sheet with the Toronto Raptors, but in all likelihood the Bulls restricted free agent will suit up at the United Center this fall, Bulls general manager John Paxson said Monday.
> 
> *"It's highly likely that we will match the offer," Paxson said in a conference call with reporters. "Relatively, in the scheme of things, it's not a lengthy deal and it's money we've allocated for Chris."*
> 
> The offer from Toronto is believed to be worth no more than $2.5 million a season for three years. Paxson's initial offer to Duhon was in the range of $6 million over three years.


Good.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> The Tribune writes:
> 
> Good.


Maybe the Ends will justify the Means or it's all good if we get Duhon, Curry (if healthy or some protection otherwise) and Chandler all signed up for at least 3 years.

But if this reported contract is any indication, Pax is being more than a touch stingy on this. 

Duhon is clearly worth this contract and Pax made him and his agent dial-up every team in the league and go begging.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Ok, we did you a favour by setting Duhon's price low. Now can you do us a favour by signing Matt Bonner to an even smaller contract that we can match? Fair is fair, right?


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> Maybe the Ends will justify the Means or it's all good if we get Duhon, Curry (if healthy or some protection otherwise) and Chandler all signed up for at least 3 years.
> 
> But if this reported contract is any indication, Pax is being more than a touch stingy on this.
> 
> Duhon is clearly worth this contract and Pax made him and his agent dial-up every team in the league and go begging.


Over the past several weeks, I've been under the impression that Duhon and his agent were the ones holding things up. We were told by several news sources that Pax and Duhon were close numbers-wise, and that a deal was imminent. But it seemed that they wanted to continue searching for suitors in order to drive up Duhon's value. Hence Bill Duffy's "sneak one by [the Bulls]" comments.

In any case, it sounds like we're getting Duhon at fair market value. Duhon can join the team knowing he's getting a fair payday, while the Bulls won't feel like his contract is a burden in any way, shape, or form. I'll rest easier about it once we officially match, but things are looking good on the Duhon front.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

On the otherside, when Paxson doesn't match and goes back on his word like he is known to do, at least we get the joy out of Chris Duhon saying "what did I get myself into" in 7 days when he realizes what team he is playing for next year.


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## Blueoak (Aug 4, 2004)

sloth said:


> On the otherside, when Paxson doesn't match and goes back on his word like he is known to do, at least we get the joy out of Chris Duhon saying "what did I get myself into" in 7 days when he realizes what team he is playing for next year.


Just curious.. when did he go back on his word?


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

I think Babcock signed Duhon to the offer sheet just so Pax would have to pay him (allegedly) 25% more than he wanted to because he is still mad that Pax sent him Jalen.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> The Tribune writes:
> 
> Chris Duhon has signed an offer sheet with the Toronto Raptors, but in all likelihood the Bulls restricted free agent will suit up at the United Center this fall, Bulls general manager John Paxson said Monday.
> 
> ...


Just get it done, Pax. Unless JWill is really back to form, and you are serious about bringing him back, we need Du. If we don't match Du and don't bring on Jay, we are going to be searching through the scrap pile for another guard.

Lets just get Duhon wrapped up and start working on getting the bigs signed.


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

All 3 papers are reporting the deal to start between 2.5-3 million dollars now. And it's already been posted Pax is likely to match. Sounds good to me. :cheers:


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> ...if this reported contract is any indication, Pax is being more than a touch stingy on this.
> 
> Duhon is clearly worth this contract and Pax made him and his agent dial-up every team in the league and go begging.


God forbid an agent actually has to do some work. :laugh: 

I think Duhon's play this past season made him enough of a known commodity where no begging was required. In browsing the boards of other teams earlier in the off-season period, Duhon's name popped up fairly regularly as a potential target. I think Bulls' fans need to start thinking of Duhon less as a mid-second round pick and more as the starting point guard for the 4th place team in the Eastern Conference.


----------



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

yodurk said:


> Over the past several weeks, I've been under the impression that Duhon and his agent were the ones holding things up. We were told by several news sources that Pax and Duhon were close numbers-wise, and that a deal was imminent. But it seemed that they wanted to continue searching for suitors in order to drive up Duhon's value. Hence Bill Duffy's "sneak one by [the Bulls]" comments.
> 
> In any case, it sounds like we're getting Duhon at fair market value. Duhon can join the team knowing he's getting a fair payday, while the Bulls won't feel like his contract is a burden in any way, shape, or form. I'll rest easier about it once we officially match, but things are looking good on the Duhon front.



i agree with this and don't think pax sent duhon "begging".

chris and his agent sought a better deal, and they went after it. the risk being pax doesn't match and chris ends up playing for a lottery team in canada. but all reports are that this is a good deal, one that pax will match so it's all good.

here's the spin out of toronto:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Co...011&call_pageid=969907729483&col=970081562040


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Reports on the FAN in Toronto had it at 3 years at 3.5 mil per.

Babcock to speak of it later.

Regardless, it is a smart move for the Raptors for all the reasons many of you have stated.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

blowuptheraptors said:


> Reports on the FAN in Toronto had it at 3 years at 3.5 mil per.
> 
> Babcock to speak of it later.
> 
> Regardless, it is a smart move for the Raptors for all the reasons many of you have stated.


That would make sense, since I can't imagine why the Raptors would bother offering if their offer only averaged $2.5M/yr.

At an average of $3.5M (his salaries would be 3.25, 3.5, 3.75 or so), it's at least a bit over what Pax wanted to pay.

I still think we match.


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Does anyone else feel like our reaction is similar to the Skiles contract situation? Everyone freaks out, the nervous energy builds, we declare our GM to be an utter failure, and then he gets the job done just fine. Hmm.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Kneepad said:


> God forbid an agent actually has to do some work. :laugh:
> 
> I think Duhon's play this past season made him enough of a known commodity where no begging was required. In browsing the boards of other teams earlier in the off-season period, Duhon's name popped up fairly regularly as a potential target. I think Bulls' fans need to start thinking of Duhon less as a mid-second round pick and more as the starting point guard for the 4th place team in the Eastern Conference.


What a concept.

Do organizations win championships or do the players?

If it's organizations, then Pax can have a revolving door of players and as long as they have "jib," Skiles can coach them to victory, eh?

If it's players, then letting any of them go for nothing in return is a big mistake.

Some here believe that all Skiles needed was an offseason and training camp to make a winner.

Seems to me that it took adding Deng, Gordon, and as importantly as these two, Duhon. Nocioni, too (he wasn't drafted, so I list him separately).

It also seems to me there's a really big causal effect between Duhon being the PG and the Bulls being a 4th place team.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Does anyone else feel like our reaction is similar to the Skiles contract situation? Everyone freaks out, the nervous energy builds, we declare our GM to be an utter failure, and then he gets the job done just fine. Hmm.


Does anyone else remember that it took Skiles calling Reinsdorf directly to get his deal done?

(Why is Pax getting the credit, then)


----------



## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> Does anyone else remember that it took Skiles calling Reinsdorf directly to get his deal done?
> 
> (Why is Pax getting the credit, then)



It seems to me the story there was that Skiles was upset that the owner wouldn't talk to his agent directly (that Reinsdorf had a "I don't talk to agents" approach). Skiles finally broke down and called Reinsdorf himself. I fail to see what bearing this has on the current situation.

If you want to say that situation shows that Reinsdorf gets the credit instead of Pax, fine. I still stick to my overall point that people are needlessly freaking out and declaring that Pax is fumbling this situation badly when maybe, just maybe, he has an idea what he's doing.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> It seems to me the story there was that Skiles was upset that the owner wouldn't talk to his agent directly (that Reinsdorf had a "I don't talk to agents" approach). Skiles finally broke down and called Reinsdorf himself. I fail to see what bearing this has on the current situation.
> 
> If you want to say that situation shows that Reinsdorf gets the credit instead of Pax, fine. I still stick to my overall point that people are needlessly freaking out and declaring that Pax is fumbling this situation badly when maybe, just maybe, he has an idea what he's doing.


At this point, it's too early to tell either way, at least in the case of Duhon. We need to know whether he actually matches - he says he will and I don't see any reason to disbelieve him - and how much we're paying.

If it's something like $3.5M to start and we could have gotten Duhon for like $2-2.5M to start if only we'd offered a 3 year deal up front, then yeah, things somewhat backfired. On the other hand, we aren't talking about a huge mistake either. We still have our PG, he's just slightly overpaid.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> It seems to me the story there was that Skiles was upset that the owner wouldn't talk to his agent directly (that Reinsdorf had a "I don't talk to agents" approach). Skiles finally broke down and called Reinsdorf himself. I fail to see what bearing this has on the current situation.
> 
> If you want to say that situation shows that Reinsdorf gets the credit instead of Pax, fine. I still stick to my overall point that people are needlessly freaking out and declaring that Pax is fumbling this situation badly when maybe, just maybe, he has an idea what he's doing.


Who's said Paxson is fumbling this situation badly?


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I have a rhetorical question. Why do the news sources keep on saying that the Bulls can "choose" to match the offer or do a sign-and-trade?

http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull092.html



> Another possibility is working out a sign-and-trade deal with the Raptors, but that seems highly unlikely at this point. Chances are the Bulls will match the offer.


It's pretty poor that you can obtain more accurate info from a message board than from a major newspaper.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

pax on espn1000 in a few minutes!


http://espnradio1000.com/silvy.asp


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

pax sounded a little caffeinated, but here's a quick summary of what he said:

on duhon: 

"i value chris" and it would take "something out of the ordinary for us not to match". acknowledged duhon's ability to run the team and his ability to defend his position. chemistry is important. the fact that duhon had to go to toronto to get a better offer is "just part of the business". 

in terms of eddy and his meeting with pax:

pax laughed and said it wasn't a formal meeting with agents involved. he hadn't seen eddy all summer and just wanted a face to face with him. said they mostly talked about eddy's wedding (pax kinda sounded like he was being almost fatherly here, and wondered aloud if eddy should be getting married!). pax understands that not all the players will work out at the berto in the summer (he said that kirk, ben and luol are "always there") and it sounded to me as if he just wanted to see eddy in person to see how he is.

on tyson and eddy potentially taking the QO:

it's a risk. it's a risk for the bulls if they do and then lose them as UFA's but it's also a risk for the player if they get injured. pax said in terms of eddy they are still waiting for eddy and his agent to present insurance scenarios, that it isn't about eddy's health so much as the insurance. 


overall in terms of eddy and tyson:

trying to find a balance of paying for potential and looking at what they have "actually done" in terms of improvements to their games. 

----

overall pax has his eye set on the long term view for the team. knows they surprised a lot of people last year but "we have a long way to go".

i missed part of it when my realplayer cut out. anybody else hear it and want to add?


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> Who's said Paxson is fumbling this situation badly?


Some of these may be debatable, but I think these posts were critical of Pax's handling of the situation.



futuristxen said:


> Finally Paxson is going to be forced to DU something.






SausageKingofChicago said:


> The thing is the MLE is what $5M ?
> 
> Why bust chops about "no more than $4M or $3.5M ?
> 
> ...





DaBullz said:


> Address this question:
> 
> Why didn't Duhon bring an S&T opportunity to Pax? (It's also an opportunity for Pax to just match on the spot).
> 
> ...






sloth said:


> If Pax lets Du walk, will this entice New Orleans to offer Tyson the max as they know that Paxson isn't true on his word of matching all offers? I think so.





DaBullz said:


> Well, my guess is Brand didn't think Sterling would match, and absolutely wanted to force the situation.
> 
> Same thing for Davis.
> 
> ...






DaBullz said:


> Strategically, the MLE is ~$5M, and Toronto hopes the bidding for for Finley quickly exceeds $1.5M to $2M (what the bulls would have left after signing Duhon).
> 
> I'm not sure you're right about the amnesty guys not getting an extra dime.
> 
> FWIW, I think Pax gambled and lost. His best move, IMO IS to resign Duhon.






johnston797 said:


> Maybe the Ends will justify the Means or it's all good if we get Duhon, Curry (if healthy or some protection otherwise) and Chandler all signed up for at least 3 years.
> 
> But if this reported contract is any indication, Pax is being more than a touch stingy on this.
> 
> Duhon is clearly worth this contract and Pax made him and his agent dial-up every team in the league and go begging.






sloth said:


> On the otherside, when Paxson doesn't match and goes back on his word like he is known to do, at least we get the joy out of Chris Duhon saying "what did I get myself into" in 7 days when he realizes what team he is playing for next year.






DaBullz said:


> Does anyone else remember that it took Skiles calling Reinsdorf directly to get his deal done?
> 
> (Why is Pax getting the credit, then)



And this last one suggests he may be fumbling it, but not badly:




Mikedc said:


> At this point, it's too early to tell either way, at least in the case of Duhon. We need to know whether he actually matches - he says he will and I don't see any reason to disbelieve him - and how much we're paying.
> 
> If it's something like $3.5M to start and we could have gotten Duhon for like $2-2.5M to start if only we'd offered a 3 year deal up front, then yeah, things somewhat backfired. On the other hand, we aren't talking about a huge mistake either. We still have our PG, he's just slightly overpaid.




My overall point I'm making is that I think the criticism at this point is coming too early. No mistakes in my view have yet been made. I think the same thing happened with the Skiles situation. I think it's worth giving Pax the benefit of the doubt until he actually does make some mistakes. At this point, I don't think we have any good reasons to doubt him. His faults so far (the Blunt situation, for instance) seem to have been largely trivial. He hasn't blown the important stuff to this point.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

yodurk said:


> I have a rhetorical question. Why do the news sources keep on saying that the Bulls can "choose" to match the offer or do a sign-and-trade?
> 
> http://www.suntimes.com/output/bulls/cst-spt-bull092.html
> 
> ...


I may be way off base here, but I thought I remember reading somewhere that an offer sheet can be nixed if all three parties agree to tear it up (Toronto/Chicago/Duhon in this case).

Although I see no incentive for Toronto to want to tear it up in this case.


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## BULLS23 (Apr 13, 2003)

It would be a shame to lost Duhon, I really liked him on this team last year . . . That said, I don't think he's worth more than 3M a year. I do like the Jaric idea, and perhaps even Finley if he can understand we aren't giving him crazy money. If we can't resign Duhon, I really think that a 2 with size is where we need to concentrate our effort.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

So, regardless of where Duhon is playing next season, it's looking like he'll be making about as much as the fourth or fifth pick in last years draft. In other words, he'll be making more than Deng and a little less than Gordon. Don't know if that's right but kudos to Duhon for having the guts to sign a one-year deal and letting his play increase his value. It's paid off for him.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

fl_flash said:


> So, regardless of where Duhon is playing next season, it's looking like he'll be making about as much as the fourth or fifth pick in last years draft. In other words, he'll be making more than Deng and a little less than Gordon. Don't know if that's right but kudos to Duhon for having the guts to sign a one-year deal and letting his play increase his value. It's paid off for him.




not to mention - if this 3.5 million figure is correct - he'll be making nearly 1.1 million more than kirk and just 100,000 less than ben.

wow. good for him is right. 








i'm watching you duhon


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

More risk = potentially greater reward.

I'm sure Duhon would have taken the guaranteed 1st round rookie deal last year at this time if he had the choice.

I’m just glad the team has a solid PG for the upcoming year.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Some of these may be debatable, but I think these posts were critical of Pax's handling of the situation.
> 
> And this last one suggests he may be fumbling it, but not badly:
> 
> My overall point I'm making is that I think the criticism at this point is coming too early. No mistakes in my view have yet been made. I think the same thing happened with the Skiles situation. I think it's worth giving Pax the benefit of the doubt until he actually does make some mistakes. At this point, I don't think we have any good reasons to doubt him. His faults so far (the Blunt situation, for instance) seem to have been largely trivial. He hasn't blown the important stuff to this point.


All of those posts are debatable, indeed.

If I have a criticism, it's that the whole salary structure is a mess. We had no draft picks to improve, and little to trade to make those kinds of improvements.

He has manipulated things so he has the LLE, MLE, and vet minimum to use to sign players. He's painted himself into a corner with the MLE by not signing Duhon to a contract with options. 

He's been unable to use any part of the MLE, or to really discuss much with anyone involving it, because of the Duhon situation. If he signed Duhon early, he'd limit his options. By waiting, he's allowed Duhon to force him into signing him for a bigger chunk of the MLE than he expected. If he has to sign Duhon for $3M, and we want Finley, and Finley is offered $2M + $1, we're out of the bidding.

That said, the circumstances suck, but Pax is playing it about as good as one can expect. <--- is this LACK of criticism lost on you?

I think it is fair to say that Paxson gambled and lost on this one. The gamble was worthwhile at the time, but in 20-20 hindsight, it's going to cost us, one way (Duhon) or another (ability to bid for any FAs). If Pax and Duhon really were just $400K apart, then pushing Duhon to look elsewhere to "prove" his worth (which I submit is well proven) is now looking kind of dumb.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Rhyder said:


> I may be way off base here, but I thought I remember reading somewhere that an offer sheet can be nixed if all three parties agree to tear it up (Toronto/Chicago/Duhon in this case).
> 
> Although I see no incentive for Toronto to want to tear it up in this case.


I believe this is correct.

The incentive for Toronto to tear it up is if they really want Duhon, and they're convinced Pax will match. It'd be the only way to score Du in that case.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

fl_flash said:


> So, regardless of where Duhon is playing next season, it's looking like he'll be making about as much as the fourth or fifth pick in last years draft. In other words, he'll be making more than Deng and a little less than Gordon. Don't know if that's right but kudos to Duhon for having the guts to sign a one-year deal and letting his play increase his value. It's paid off for him.


Good point! That is exactly what he did.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

well this is about 2.5 million more than the Bulls wildest dream cap hit last fall on a duhon contract this summer. Scrambling to absorb this

what the cap implications are for next summer is probably negligable if you buy the idea the Bulls were going to spend the majority of the MLE anyways. 

-Talentwise, its not going to matter. Duhons good for the dough. 

-Fitwise....thats the rub, depending on the 2 guard situation. Minutes avail? For who? a backup 2 guard or PG? Will Ben start? Would we have had a better shot at Finley if this didn't happen? would we have been better off next year if Duhon wasn't so good this season and had to take a little contract instead in liu of Finley (or another guy?)

-Chemistrywise, its great of course


Pax speaks of financial considerations...what is he refering to? 


anyways, some are carping about missing out on "honeys" lol. Seriously, the Bulls are set at 4 positions not counting guards Gordon and Duhon unless you want to trade someone. We're fine going forward. Noone we would have gotten on a one year type deal is likely going to do more for us than those two regardless. Until we come to a final answer on Gordon, we aren't getting a major aquisition if its not Like Michael Finley anyways who may or may not become a Phoenix Sun....If Duhon costs us a shot at some larger 2 guard who would be temp players...so be it. It is what it is. Its not the Bulls fault. The Duhon situatiuon has them handcuffed


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> All of those posts are debatable, indeed.
> 
> If I have a criticism, it's that the whole salary structure is a mess. We had no draft picks to improve, and little to trade to make those kinds of improvements.
> 
> ...



Valid points. As far as Duhon goes, you're sort of limited in the ways you can play it. First, it remains to be seen whether Duhon was signable at all. If they really were that close, maybe it was Duhon's agent's plan all along to seek external offers to drive up his value. From what we've heard from him, that certainly does not seem impossible. 

If they could have signed him, then not doing so very well may have backfired here. I see the point for delaying. Maybe there will be somebody better you can get with the MLE or maybe there will be an amnesty cut player that would be preferable to Duhon. However, if it ends up that we just get Duhon and Googs (or Allen, etc.), and Duhon was signable for less than the Raps deal, then it turns out Pax's delay tactics will end up costing the team money and have a small impact on the cap space situation next year. Although the amount could be small in number, if it's the difference between a max and slightly less than max offer, it could be significant. 

As far as Pax painting himself into a corner with the draft pick and cap situations, that is essentially attributable to the Deng move last year. Do you believe that was a mistake?


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

As far as painting himself in a corner with the draft pick, I consider Deng this years pick. We would not have gotten a player like deng this year. Not at the spot were drafted from.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Another point I would make is that there has been some amount of criticism for pax not saying that he will unconditionally match the offers of Duhon, Tyson, and Eddy. I know that the new language is different than the statements before, which amounted to basically saying that another team making an offer would be futile because the Bulls would match. 

Here's the thing. What do you really want? If other teams realistically believe Pax would match whatever the offer was, then Atlanta would offer the max to Duhon just to hurt us financially, for example. Everyone knows that there is a reasonableness required to the offers in order for them to be matched. For the bigs, that might be max deals. For Duhon, it certainly isn't. I don't now see where the incentive is to match Duhon immediately just to somehow prove that we always match for our guys. It seems saying that matching is "highly likely" is the way to go. It keeps showing a strong interest in him but keeps open the idea that if something comes along that is going to improve the team, you're not going to pass up that opportunity.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

truebluefan said:


> As far as painting himself in a corner with the draft pick, I consider Deng this years pick. We would not have gotten a player like deng this year. Not at the spot were drafted from.



Not to mention, Deng now has a season under his belt. We wouldn't have gotten somebody of the same quality, nor would we have gotten somebody with valuable NBA experience.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

DaBullz said:


> He's been unable to use any part of the MLE, or to really discuss much with anyone involving it, because of the Duhon situation. If he signed Duhon early, he'd limit his options. *By waiting, he's allowed Duhon to force him into signing him for a bigger chunk of the MLE than he expected.* If he has to sign Duhon for $3M, and we want Finley, and Finley is offered $2M + $1, we're out of the bidding.


I believe you are overstating the opportunity the Bulls have had to do anything But to wait. It was out of their hands for the most part. Do you think Duhon and his agent werent about to shop around under any reasonable circumstance? So the Bulls should have overpaid just to avoid a wait? Who is he missing out on? Have you been in on the GM/agent private scuttlebut and talks? How do you know who's really avail? If theres someone better than the Duhon option ripe for the taking...don't you think Pax would have made that his priority to execute? Of course he would have. Maybe you just have a difference of opinion on the worth of Duhon. Thats fair. But to criticize the Bulls because of some imaginary scenario isn't fair. Pax has to deal with real situations

Pax did the right thing. Really, the only thing that he could do.



> I think it is fair to say that Paxson gambled and lost on this one. The gamble was worthwhile at the time, but in 20-20 hindsight, it's going to cost us, one way (Duhon) or another (ability to bid for any FAs). If Pax and Duhon really were just $400K apart, then pushing Duhon to look elsewhere to "prove" his worth (which I submit is well proven) is now looking kind of dumb.


If ifs and buts were candies and nuts. How many different times does Pax have to come out and explain whats really going on and correct wild accusations?
besides, like I said, if there were better FA options Pax was worried about missing out on, I'm sure he would have pursued them instead of waiting out CD


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> All of those posts are debatable, indeed.
> 
> If I have a criticism, it's that the whole salary structure is a mess. We had no draft picks to improve, and little to trade to make those kinds of improvements.


What kinds of improvements?

There seems to be a pretty clear plan in place to me, and the salary structure has been set up exactly to allow it to unfold. That plan calls for a lot of flexibility to add players and/or make trades next summer. The price for doing that is we are going to make fewer moves this summer.

Given our still significant room for internal improvement, that doesn't bother me one bit. 

Nor does it bother me we aren't going to sign up an over the hill Michael Finley to a multi-year contract.

The best way for this team to improve is to stick together, maintain discipline, and not junk a good opportunity a year down the road for a get rich quick scheme. Similarly, it shouldn't be giving up players now for "future flexibility" or some garbage like that.

It's just that, with the players we've got, there's really not much to do. Assuming we re-sign our FAs, we've got a 9-10 man rotation already set. Given that fact, any significant changes should be a trade, since otherwise it'll just have a log jam somewhere.

Aside from that, what guys are out there that would really make us better? Finley as a short run proposition, but at a cost of screwing up our long-run position? No way. He'd have to be twice as good as he is to do that.



> He has manipulated things so he has the LLE, MLE, and vet minimum to use to sign players. He's painted himself into a corner with the MLE by not signing Duhon to a contract with options.


Manipulated? :clown:



> He's been unable to use any part of the MLE, or to really discuss much with anyone involving it, because of the Duhon situation. If he signed Duhon early, he'd limit his options. By waiting, he's allowed Duhon to force him into signing him for a bigger chunk of the MLE than he expected. If he has to sign Duhon for $3M, and we want Finley, and Finley is offered $2M + $1, we're out of the bidding.


It remains to be seen what Duhon's actually getting. Nor does it matter much, since Finley's not going to sign for $2M or even $3M.



> That said, the circumstances suck, but Pax is playing it about as good as one can expect. <--- is this LACK of criticism lost on you?


I suppose... you do seem to be starting with a black canvas, however, and then pointing out a rather small blotch of white 



> I think it is fair to say that Paxson gambled and lost on this one. The gamble was worthwhile at the time, but in 20-20 hindsight, it's going to cost us, one way (Duhon) or another (ability to bid for any FAs). If Pax and Duhon really were just $400K apart, then pushing Duhon to look elsewhere to "prove" his worth (which I submit is well proven) is now looking kind of dumb.


Yeah, a little bit, but again, it doesn't really cost us more than a couple million bucks. From a competitive perspective, I don't think it was ever in the cards to use the full MLE even if Duhon had signed an option year, unless it was a one year MLE deal. Then, I suppose, it might have helped some, but I tend to not think a player on a one-year MLE deal would make much of a difference.

Basically, I see (depending on what Duhon actually gets), some room to criticise, but it's not like it leaves me thinking we're in bad shape or anything. We're in about the shape I expected us to be in, and the long-run plan is still on track. To put it another way, the justifiable criticism I see lowers his grade from maybe an A- to a B+ this offseason. Not a big deal. ****ing up and losing Skiles, or one of our RFAs, or blowing our cap flexibility on some has been would be a much, much worse mistake, and so far he's avoided those.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

Pax has proven himself so many times, i think he deserves the benefit of the doubt at this point. He's been criticized at every possible turn, after he's made moves...and even prematurly before things shake out. This guy has a long term plan that some may or may not agree with, or be able to see the end vision before it appears. So many times proving he's got a slight clue in what he's doing :rock:


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

Mikedc said:


> What kinds of improvements?
> 
> There seems to be a pretty clear plan in place to me, and the salary structure has been set up exactly to allow it to unfold. That plan calls for a lot of flexibility to add players and/or make trades next summer. The price for doing that is we are going to make fewer moves this summer.
> 
> ...


stellar summary Mike. I agree with all of this. 

And after seeing Finley agaist the Suns, he BETTER be hurt, because, and this is slight hyperbole speaking...he looked shot at times. He was an absolute turnstyle on defense too


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> As far as Pax painting himself into a corner with the draft pick and cap situations, that is essentially attributable to the Deng move last year. Do you believe that was a mistake?


Seems to me that virtually all of Pax's trades have seen us get the short end of the deal. That is, we gave up the best player(s) in the deal. It's possible that even the Deng deal would have been that way, if we played as bad as the seasons prior...

I wouldn't fixate on the Deng move as much as moves like letting Hassell go, or dumping Crawford for maybe less than we could have gotten (this off-season if we still had him).


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> What kinds of improvements?


Just a couple (or three) years ago, we signed Yell and Utah signed Harpring for MLE (or less).

Would those be improvements?


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Seems to me that virtually all of Pax's trades have seen us get the short end of the deal. That is, we gave up the best player(s) in the deal. It's possible that even the Deng deal would have been that way, if we played as bad as the seasons prior...
> 
> I wouldn't fixate on the Deng move as much as moves like letting Hassell go, or dumping Crawford for maybe less than we could have gotten (this off-season if we still had him).


Whether you like Pax's trades or not, the bottomline is that a good argument can be made for each and every one of them. And they're mostly, if not fully, consistent with the plan that he's spoken of for the past 2 1/2 years. The result so far has been turning a franchise around from the gutter into a winner. He's overcome this first challenge with flying colors. The next challenge is continuing the upward trend and bringing us back into the elite ranks, i.e. title-worthy.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> Seems to me that virtually all of Pax's trades have seen us get the short end of the deal. That is, we gave up the best player(s) in the deal. It's possible that even the Deng deal would have been that way, if we played as bad as the seasons prior...
> 
> I wouldn't fixate on the Deng move as much as moves like letting Hassell go, or dumping Crawford for maybe less than we could have gotten (this off-season if we still had him).



What I was addressing was this statement you made:

"He has manipulated things so he has the LLE, MLE, and vet minimum to use to sign players. He's painted himself into a corner with the MLE by not signing Duhon to a contract with options. "

I fail to see how Trenton Hassell or Jamal Crawford play into this. Are you arguing that after one more season we would have gotten more value for Crawford and this would further satisfy your offseason desires?

It seems to me the team is getting better, not worse. I feel like though that you want to attribute the good things (Deng) to being an accident, but want to hold Pax accountable for what you perceive as bad moves. I feel like if you're going to criticize what you perceive as his weaknesses, you should also praise his successes. For instance, the fact of the matter is that the Deng deal was an absolute steal _the way it actually turned out._ This seems more important to me than the way it could have turned out had things been different.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

jnrjr79 said:


> It seems to me the team is getting better, not worse.


Seems to be a pretty important point. Funny how often that part is overlooked.

Frankly, the rest of what is being discussed now in this thread is smoke and mirrors. Hollow attempts to cling to the absurd and baseless opinion that John Paxson is a poor GM.

That is why some people don't "fixate" on moves like the Deng trade. That is why people seem to forget that for all the "talent" Paxson loses in his trades, the teams he trades that talent to get worse, though projected to be better. While the Bulls get better, though projected to be worse. 

That the Bulls have turned from an anual embarrassment to a young, cap flexible playoff team under Paxson is the bottom line. It isn't a matter of opinion and it isn't subject to debate. Its just the way it is. 

The rest of this nonsense is simply opinionated fans dancing as fast as they can because the negativity that once saturated this board has been proven to be just what it was: premature. 

Amazing how history repeats itself in such rapid cycles.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Duhon's worth this much and it's only a 3-year deal. I've got to assume Chicago will match. Yes?


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

Damian Necronamous said:


> Duhon's worth this much and it's only a 3-year deal. I've got to assume Chicago will match. Yes?


It appears as though Pax plans on matching the offer, because it's in the range of what Duhon is worth. However, it seems like we're planning on waiting out the full seven days before we match in case something better falls into our lap........such as a player that's sacrificed due to the amnesty rule.

It's probably unlikely that something will just magically fall into our lap, so I'd say it's good money that we retain Chris Duhon.


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## Cocoa Rice Krispies (Oct 10, 2004)

DaBullz said:


> It's possible that even the Deng deal would have [given us the short end], if we played as bad as the seasons prior...


That's like saying, "If Paxson wasn't right, then he'd be wrong." :biggrin: 

As things stand, the Bulls made out like thieves on the whole deal. I'm more excited about Deng than any other Bulls player. Go Pax! :clap:


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Kneepad said:


> I think Bulls' fans need to start thinking of Duhon less as a mid-second round pick and more as the starting point guard for the 4th place team in the Eastern Conference.


It's not the fans that are the issue. I think it's the Bulls that need to start thinking of Duhon as less a mid-second round pick.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> It's not the fans that are the issue. I think it's the Bulls that need to start thinking of Duhon as less a mid-second round pick.


I think what's really going on there is where people fall on Gordon. If you think he's gonna make a quantum leap and be starting next to Kirk for the long run, then Duhon has less value to the Bulls. If you're not yet sold on Gordon then Duhon is a more tangible fit in the long run.


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## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

A signed offer sheet can be rescinded within the 15 day waiting period if all three parties (the player and the two teams) agree. However, they could not do this in order to engineer a better deal *(such as a sign-and-trade arrangement)* between the teams.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#34


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> What I was addressing was this statement you made:
> 
> "He has manipulated things so he has the LLE, MLE, and vet minimum to use to sign players. He's painted himself into a corner with the MLE by not signing Duhon to a contract with options. "
> 
> I fail to see how Trenton Hassell or Jamal Crawford play into this. Are you arguing that after one more season we would have gotten more value for Crawford and this would further satisfy your offseason desires?


Really? Check out Dan Rosenbaum's article on 82games.com. He rates Hassell in the top 10 SGs, defensively. Are we looking for a tallish SG? I remember Hassell was big enough to play a lot of SF for us. And I don't remember any "jib" issues with the guy. Almost a duhon story, in fact (2nd round pick, ends up starting every year he was with us, makes good after being cut).

And yeah, I think we would get more value for Crawford in a non-S&T scenario (i.e. this summer, had we signed him).

I mean, there's nothing wrong with the guys we have, but he basically dumped a bunch of guys who could be used to trade for guys we really want. 

For Crawford we got less than we could. For Hassell, we got ZIP. For Hoiberg, who led the league in 3pt shooting, we got ZIP.

Their salaries alone, not factoring in that they are good enough to contribute to most teams, would clearly give Pax some options right now.



> It seems to me the team is getting better, not worse. I feel like though that you want to attribute the good things (Deng) to being an accident, but want to hold Pax accountable for what you perceive as bad moves. I feel like if you're going to criticize what you perceive as his weaknesses, you should also praise his successes. For instance, the fact of the matter is that the Deng deal was an absolute steal _the way it actually turned out._ This seems more important to me than the way it could have turned out had things been different.


It got better for one year. Is it continuing to get better? That remains to be seen. Relative to the Heat, for example, I think we lost ground. Certainly on paper.

I don't attribute Deng to being an accident. He was considered a top 3 pick by many, and it was good fortune he was available to us when our turn to pick came up. Had he been gone, we might have had iggy, which would have been great. Or we might not - nobody knows for sure.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Hassell is a good defender, but his game as a whole is NBDL worthy. He's nowhere close to a Duhon story...Duhon helped a team rebound from an 0-9 start and led them to 47 wins. Hassell was in the starting lineup out of necessity because the Bulls had nobody better. No different than Linton Johnson or Ronald Dupree. Personally, I don't regret letting Hassell go one bit. He's a good fit for the T-Wolves because their roster as it has consisted the past several years was full of high-priced talent (KG, Wally, Spree, Cassell). They needed a guy with a low price who didn't demand shots. But now he's wildly overpaid IMO due to 1 strong playoff series against Carmelo Anthony (a rookie at the time). 

You're upset about not getting anything in return for Hoiberg? :laugh: Since when do teams get fair return for every guy they have to let go? Jeez, now I'm feeling ripped off about losing Dickey Simpkins for nothing.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Hassell is a good defender, but his game as a whole is NBDL worthy. He's nowhere close to a Duhon story...Duhon helped a team rebound from an 0-9 start and led them to 47 wins.


:laugh: That is hilarious, especially since I agree.

It's just that my cohones aren't quite as large as yours (figuratively speaking, of course. ). :clap:


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> For Crawford we got less than we could. For Hassell, we got ZIP. For Hoiberg, who led the league in 3pt shooting, we got ZIP.


I guess you don't remember that Hoiberg was quite a terrible 3 pt shooter (and a a pretty bad player) his last couple of years with the Bulls.

I can't believe the Bulls didn't get something for an outside shooter who shot 26% and 24% from 3 point range in his last two seasons, respectively, with the Bulls.

Keep digging.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

The Truth said:


> I guess you don't remember that Hoiberg was quite a terrible 3 pt shooter (and a a pretty bad player) his last couple of years with the Bulls.
> 
> I can't believe the Bulls didn't get something for an outside shooter who shot 26% and 24% from 3 point range in his last two seasons, respectively, with the Bulls.
> 
> Keep digging.


I agree. I remember watching him and thinking OUT LOUD....



The Krakken said:


> There's nothing worse than a 3pt specialist who cannot shoot! If you cannot do the only thing we ask you to do, then...


Hell, put me in the game. I'll take what he's making and give you that!


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> It seems to me the team is getting better, not worse.


I hope you are right. Last year we were the 3rd best team in the east, regular season record wise. I wonder if we'll be better this year.

1st season under Paxson -- worse
2nd season under Paxson -- better
3rd season under Paxson -- ?????

He's certainly building an environment that a free agent may want to come to for the start of season four. Inheriting the maturing towers has not hurt either.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> I hope you are right. Last year we were the 3rd best team in the east, regular season record wise. I wonder if we'll be better this year.
> 
> 1st season under Paxson -- worse
> 2nd season under Paxson -- better
> ...



I see the way you are setting this up, as it appears the Bulls have lost ground this offseason as they haven't been in a position to reload with lots of talent. I don't think "getting better" means being a higher ranked team in the playofs every year, necessarily, though that is certainly progress.

For instance, in the 5 seasons beore the Bulls' first championship, their records were:

30-52
40-42
50-32
47-35 (regression, on paper)
55-27
Championship (61-21)

So, to me, this shows you could drop back a couple/few games (which this year would have cost us our #4 seed), and still be on the right track towards winning in the future. 

I would take a lower seed this year but a first round playoff win, for instance, as being improvement.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> It's not the fans that are the issue. I think it's the Bulls that need to start thinking of Duhon as less a mid-second round pick.


That's partly my point... I believe the Bulls do value Duhon much higher than do most Bulls fans. I believe the Bulls think they got a true second-round steal in Duhon, whereas most Bulls fans seem unwilling to acknowledge that, perhaps in part because he doesn't put up gaudy statistics.

Bring back the Piston Man!


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Seems to me that virtually all of Pax's trades have seen us get the short end of the deal. That is, we gave up the best player(s) in the deal. It's possible that even the Deng deal would have been that way, if we played as bad as the seasons prior...
> 
> I wouldn't fixate on the Deng move as much as moves like letting Hassell go, or dumping Crawford for maybe less than we could have gotten (this off-season if we still had him).


It's not uncommon for really bad teams to get the short end of deals as they purge themselves of bad apples and older players who don't figure in their next phase of rebuilding.

Please don't tell me this is leading to your still believing this team would have been better keeping Jalen Rose.


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## unBULLievable (Dec 13, 2002)

hey DaBULLZ!!! I got news for you!!!!

*JOHN PAXSON WILL GET FIRED PRETTY SOON*


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## unBULLievable (Dec 13, 2002)

Management is furious with him about how he handled the Jamal Crawford situation.


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## unBULLievable (Dec 13, 2002)

Paxson is so stupid.Everybody is trading and dealing and he is just sitting in his office at the Berto Center.

I wish we had Isaiah.

Trade the whole ****ing team and especially Kirk Hinrich.I can't stand him.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

unBULLievable said:


> Paxson is so stupid.Everybody is trading and dealing and he is just sitting in his office at the Berto Center.
> 
> I wish we had Isaiah.
> 
> Trade the whole ****** team and especially Kirk Hinrich.I can't stand him.



is it happy hour in greece already?

please no masked cursing. thanks.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

unBULLievable said:


> Management is furious with him about how he handled the Jamal Crawford situation.



:laugh: 


the funniest thing i've read on the boards in a long time. no really, good one!


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Kneepad said:


> It's not uncommon for really bad teams to get the short end of deals as they purge themselves of bad apples and older players who don't figure in their next phase of rebuilding.
> 
> Please don't tell me this is leading to your still believing this team would have been better keeping Jalen Rose.


No.

My hope is that "getting better" means relative to the other teams. If we're going to be champions, it means "better" relative to all other teams, no?

And I do think there's plenty of evidence that the teams that get better do so through trades and not through internal improvement. And that means getting the better end of deals, even if the players are "bad apples" or older players who don't figure in the next phase of rebuilding.

If Detroit is our model, then look at their lineup. Which of their "core" was drafted and developed by the Pistons?

If San Antonio is our model, consider they added Brent Barry and Nazr Mohammed last season, and Horry and Rasho the season before.

If the Heat is our model, they just traded for Shaq last season, and recently traded an older player who doesn't fit in their "rebuilding" (with a rose-like contract) for Jason Williams, James Posey, and Antoine Walker.

I guess the good news is AD's contract comes off the books at the end of the season.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> No.
> 
> My hope is that "getting better" means relative to the other teams. If we're going to be champions, it means "better" relative to all other teams, no?
> 
> ...


I don't know. I never said making good trades wasn't an important component in building a championship team. I said it wasn't uncommon for really bad teams to have to sacrifice talented players-- but players who may be bad apples or have other jib issues-- in order to get headed in the right direction as a frachise.

Since you mentioned Detoit, they're a team that helps proves my point. Early on in Dumars' regime, he unloaded Stackhouse to the Wizards for Rip Hamilton. Based on talent for talent (at the time), the trade was widely considered to be a steal for the Wizards. But in the long run, one could easily argue that Detroit got the better of that trade. Stackhouse was (and to a large degree, is) considered to be a selfish, no-defense-playing guy who looks first to get his points and only then to help the team win, whereas Hamilton was a team-playing cog that plugged into the Piston machine just about perfectly.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Kneepad said:


> I don't know. I never said making good trades wasn't an important component in building a championship team. I said it wasn't uncommon for really bad teams to have to sacrifice talented players-- but players who may be bad apples or have other jib issues-- in order to get headed in the right direction as a frachise.
> 
> Since you mentioned Detoit, they're a team that helps proves my point. Early on in Dumars' regime, he unloaded Stackhouse to the Wizards for Rip Hamilton. Based on talent for talent (at the time), the trade was widely considered to be a steal for the Wizards. But in the long run, one could easily argue that Detroit got the better of that trade. Stackhouse was (and to a large degree, is) considered to be a selfish, no-defense-playing guy who looks first to get his points and only then to help the team win, whereas Hamilton was a team-playing cog that plugged into the Piston machine just about perfectly.


Hamilton scored 18 and 20 PPG the two seasons before Detroit traded for him. At least they were getting that much.

It's hard to make a case that Pike has the upside Hamilton did. Or Griffin. Or Frank Williams. Or Othella. Or AD.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Hamilton scored 18 and 20 PPG the two seasons before Detroit traded for him. At least they were getting that much.
> 
> It's hard to make a case that Pike has the upside Hamilton did. Or Griffin. Or Frank Williams. Or Othella. Or AD.


Are you inferring that Crawford is as good a player as Stack was when he was traded for Hamilton??????


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

fl_flash said:


> Are you inferring that Crawford is as good a player as Stack was when he was traded for Hamilton??????


No, I'm inferring the Crawford trade was one where we gave up the best player in the deal and got back, basically, crap.

EDIT: And I believe THIS offseason, a $6M Crawford could have been easily traded for a lot more. Remember, this offseason, his BYC issues would be a lot less of a problem to deal with.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> It's hard to make a case that Pike has the upside Hamilton did. Or Griffin. Or Frank Williams. Or Othella. Or AD.


No harder than it is to make a case that Crawford is the equivalent of Stackhouse.

Apparently there are still some who refuse to acknowledge that no one in the league wanted Crawford for that kind of money except Isiah.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Kneepad said:


> No harder than it is to make a case that Crawford is the equivalent of Stackhouse.
> 
> Apparently there are still some who refuse to acknowledge that no one in the league wanted Crawford for that kind of money except Isiah.


Correction.

Nobody in the league wanted to deal with the bulls in a S&T scenario at the time.

We can't possibly know if there'd have been a big demand for him as a UFA.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Seems to me that virtually all of Pax's trades have seen us get the short end of the deal. That is, we gave up the best player(s) in the deal. It's possible that even the Deng deal would have been that way, if we played as bad as the seasons prior...
> 
> I wouldn't fixate on the Deng move as much as moves like letting Hassell go, or dumping Crawford for maybe less than we could have gotten (this off-season if we still had him).


DaBullz, 

It seems like you're not seeing the forest for the trees here. 

When I read your analysis, I'm kind of reminded of the arguments that supposedly arose after sequencing the human genome. After it had been completed, it turned out that humans only had about 34,000 different genes. To most, this seemed like an incredulous number, since an animal like a flatworm, which splits in two and doesn't do a whole lot else, has about 17,000. Since genes code for proteins that are eventually responsible for determining everything that comprises a person, from a beating heart, to the ability to feel and process complex emotions like pride and defiance, it was pretty mystifying that a human being would have 'only' twice as much genes as a simplistic, multi-celled animal such as the flatworm, and lots of people argued that there had to be more, somewhere in the range of 50-100 thousand. 

As it turns out, they were wrong and there really only are 34,000 different genes that determine the makeup of a human being. The reason was because the belief that one gene codes for one protein, and hence, is only responsible for one 'trait' is false. But rather, how the gene behaves is a result of the chemical environment that it's placed in, and how it interacts with the other genes around it. So for instance, you have three genes side by side, and as a result, they each code for 1 specific protein. But if you took those same three genes and rearranged them in a different order, they might all code for different proteins, or one could be shut off, or two could be shut off and the other one could code for three, etc. So, it's not a tit-for-tat relationship. 

This means that when you're evaluating an organism's genetic code, you can't say it will have X characteristic because it has Y gene. That's an irrelevant, overly simplistic analysis. You have to look at the _combination_ of genes, and evaluate how they function together as a whole.

I think how a team operates and how it is constructed is fairly analagous, and the ultimate performance of a team is a result of the _combination_ of players and how they work together. So to me, your poo-pooing over the Jamal Crawford trade and other such things seems pretty short sighted. To me, it seems like John Paxson's moves, when looked at _as a whole_ have pieced together very well, and have resulted in a good combination of players that work well together, and I think the Jamal Crawford trade fits into this overall concept. The players we got back contributed to the harmonious amalgamation of talents and attitudes that comprised our team and helped it have the season it did. And our team is very young and financially flexible moving forward. Which is why I think to singularly look back at past moves, and say 'we should have traded player X for player Y, or something similar to that is flawed thinking, and does not account for the complex interaction between all twelve players, management, and coaching staff that eventually determines how a team performs.


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Correction.
> 
> Nobody in the league wanted to deal with the bulls in a S&T scenario at the time.


True. But why not? Obviously the Bulls asking price wasn't that high.

And there was nothing to stop any team from signing Crawford to an offer sheet (heck, even Duhon attracted that much). And, unlike this off-season, I don't recall Paxson issuing any definitive "we'll match all offers" statements last summmer.

Question for you... after Crawford's play in NY this past season, what would you have expected to fetch for him in a trade had the Bulls re-signed him?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Kneepad said:


> I don't know. I never said making good trades wasn't an important component in building a championship team. I said it wasn't uncommon for really bad teams to have to sacrifice talented players-- but players who may be bad apples or have other jib issues-- in order to get headed in the right direction as a frachise.
> 
> Since you mentioned Detoit, they're a team that helps proves my point. Early on in Dumars' regime, he unloaded Stackhouse to the Wizards for Rip Hamilton. Based on talent for talent (at the time), the trade was widely considered to be a steal for the Wizards. But in the long run, one could easily argue that Detroit got the better of that trade. Stackhouse was (and to a large degree, is) considered to be a selfish, no-defense-playing guy who looks first to get his points and only then to help the team win, whereas Hamilton was a team-playing cog that plugged into the Piston machine just about perfectly.


Somewhat on a tangent, a throw in to the Pistons in that trade was an unheralded young swing player- Bobby Simmons- who won the MIP this year. MJ through him in without a second thought and Dumars cut him shortly after without giving him much, if any of a look.

That was more likely than not a lack of dilligence on both teams' parts. There's a young player who was obviously working his *** off and who you could stash away and let grow for a while. Paying attention to those sorts of things probably make or break as many teams and trades as anything you guys are talking about.


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