# The Heat K.O. the Cavs!!!



## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

Wade is in and Bron is out!!!


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

Wow, I guess that seals up the ROY for Lamar Odom, then.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

Wade for ROY...


not


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

Is this thread needed?

Heat were already in; Cavs were already out.

We're now at the point were one meaningless game gets turned in to an indirect LeBron stab. 


OMG, sound the horns!


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

Anyways a big WIN for us so we can finish the season with a winning record.

Now i want the Nuggets to lose and Utah to take the 8th spot in the West.


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## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

Yes it is a relevant game. Heat won, Wade scored 20 points on 6 shots less than Lebron ( counting those that ended up as free throws too ).

Forced Lebron to make 8 turnovers.

Most importantly MIAMI WON THE GAME, they are in, Lebron is OUT.

Wade is ther only choice for the rookie of the year.

If you think otherwise, seek professional help, there is something seriously wrong with you.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>therealdeal</b>!
> orced Lebron to make 8 turnovers.


Wade and James didn't really guard one another. James had Butler on him during stretches of the game. Did you watch the game?


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

the cavs should of got the 8th seed over Boston. They choked at the end of the year. They will be there next year though


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>tpb2</b>!
> Is this thread needed?
> 
> Heat were already in; Cavs were already out.
> ...


OMG POOR LEBRON LETS ALL WORSHIP HIM AND SERVE UNTO HIM, LET ALL NAYSERS OF LEBRON GO TO HELL BECAUSE THEY LIKE US SHOULD ENJOY HAVING AN INFERIOR PRODUCT PUSHED DOWN THEIR THROATS


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> OMG POOR LEBRON LETS ALL WORSHIP HIM AND SERVE UNTO HIM, LET ALL NAYSERS OF LEBRON GO TO HELL BECAUSE THEY LIKE US SHOULD ENJOY HAVING AN INFERIOR PRODUCT PUSHED DOWN THEIR THROATS


You missed the point. This game didnt mean anything. That doesnt mean you should love LeBron. It's called being realistic. My opinion was realistic, it wasnt worship just because it was in his defense. Bringing up today's game and saying there were implications when there weren't is a reason to question the motive. The Cavs and LeBron were out a few games back, and everyone already knew. 

Your reaction is typical. I questioned the thread and you start with some eleborate, exaggerted stereotype against LeBron's realistic supporters. That's getting old, didnt you hear?


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## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

Cavs still had a chance to get in, but I guess guys like Lebron who are all hype, collect the cash, mumble some nonsense in an interview and quit early.

Great!!


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## mysterio (May 20, 2003)

Oh puh-lease. Dwyane (d'why-anne?) is good but nothing special. He's just a poor man's Steve Francis. Do not compare him to the likes of LeBron. Sure he'll have his off games, but he's still only 19 vs. Wade who is 22.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>HEATLUNATIC</b>!
> Wade is in and Bron is out!!!


Is this really necessary?? We have known the Heat were gonna be in for quite a while now. This thread just fills the meaningless purpose of you campaigning for Wade to be ROY over Lebron. Which isn't gonna happen. Wade's a great player, he really is, but he's not getting ROY. But you know what, you're right, I think Ndudi Ebi should get ROY over both Lebron and Wade and Carmello, because The T'Wolves have the #1 seed in the West and have just been monstrous since they drafted Ebi.



> OMG POOR LEBRON LETS ALL WORSHIP HIM AND SERVE UNTO HIM, LET ALL NAYSERS OF LEBRON GO TO HELL BECAUSE THEY LIKE US SHOULD ENJOY HAVING AN INFERIOR PRODUCT PUSHED DOWN THEIR THROATS


Wow, well it's really clear you watch Lebron a lot and have much support and reason behind your opinion. At least your not like other posters who bash Lebron, who have no argument what so ever, and who really just wanna post meaningless trash. I completely agree with you. What an pathetic excuse for a rookie. I mean we're just asking him to lead his team into the playoffs in his first year in the NBA, coming straight outta high school. 





> Cavs still had a chance to get in, but I guess guys like Lebron who are all hype, collect the cash, mumble some nonsense in an interview and quit early.


:clap: 

Another insightful post, with an unbiased opinion. What a dissapointing rookie season for Lebron. I mean what did he do? 
Well, I would post his stats, but I get tired of people jockriding Lebron just because he averages over 20 pts., 5 rebs., and 5 asts. per game. I mean he is way overhyped. And you wanna know why? Because he didn't lead his team to the playoffs. Once again, Ebi for ROY!!!


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I wonder if the Wizards fans will post about knocking Philly out of playoff contention?

Cleveland was knocked out long before this game. This just made it a formality. Except for James and Boozer the team basically fell apart in the last 12 games of the season.

To add insult to injury, the Celtics lost anyways tonight.

Fortunately the silver lining is adding another lottery pick to a team that was one of the better second half stories of the year.

I'm sure Phoenix Suns fans are kind of sad, since they just lost out on another draft pick this year.


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

*Re: Re: The Heat K.O. the Cavs!!!*



> Originally posted by <b>Pay Ton</b>!
> 
> 
> Is this really necessary?? We have known the Heat were gonna be in for quite a while now. This thread just fills the meaningless purpose of you campaigning for Wade to be ROY over Lebron. Which isn't gonna happen. Wade's a great player, he really is, but he's not getting ROY. But you know what, you're right, I think Ndudi Ebi should get ROY over both Lebron and Wade and Carmello, because The T'Wolves have the #1 seed in the West and have just been monstrous since they drafted Ebi.
> ...


Some people get it. 


And for those that dont, here's a hint: "Getting it" isnt about liking LeBron. It's about making sense and fully considering the situation, for any player or team.


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> I wonder if the Wizards fans will post about knocking Philly out of playoff contention?
> 
> Cleveland was knocked out long before this game. This just made it a formality. Except for James and Boozer the team basically fell apart in the last 12 games of the season.
> ...


Perhaps I should make a thread about the Raptors or Suns being eliminated a while back.

Maybe I should include the information that the Pacers have clinched a playoff spot, even though it already occurred as well. 

Maybe I should make a thread about Stephon Marbury being traded to the Knicks while I'm at it.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

*Re: Re: The Heat K.O. the Cavs!!!*



> Originally posted by <b>Pay Ton</b>!
> Is this really necessary??


Pay Ton? Any posts are considered unncessary as well, even your supposed to be PAYTON but Pay Ton is necessary as well? The guy can posts all he wants, if he hates Leborn, he can post whatever he wants. 

You can all post Penny is washed up and shi, but I wont say is it necessary?

F! GUYS! REALLY!


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> I wonder if the Wizards fans will post about knocking Philly out of playoff contention?


No because technically Philly still has a shot.


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## 7M3 (Aug 5, 2002)

It seems as if this is your first encounter with the Heat fans here at BBB.net, tbp2.

They're going to finish all of their sentences with three exclamation marks. They're going to refer to the Miami Heat as "us" and "we." They're going to campaign vigorously for "RESPECT!!!11!!." And they're going to make irrational arguments for Miami players that they have no hope of supporting.

That's just them. 

And you can take 'em or leave 'em.


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>7M3</b>!
> It seems as if this is your first encounter with the Heat fans here at BBB.net, tbp2.
> 
> They're going to finish all of their sentences with three exclamation marks. They're going to refer to the Miami Heat as "us" and "we." They're going to campaign vigorously for "RESPECT!!!11!!." And they're going to make irrational arguments for Miami players that they have no hope of supporting.
> ...


No only one does the exclamation thing, its just what he does on every post.

Why wouldnt they refer to their team as "we" or "us"? I know when i talk about my teams thats how i do it.


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>therealdeal</b>!
> Wade is ther only choice for the rookie of the year.
> 
> If you think otherwise, seek professional help, there is something seriously wrong with you.


I wouldnt give ROY to a player who missed 20 games, but thats just me, so i guess i have something wrong. Oh well.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: The Heat K.O. the Cavs!!!*



> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> Pay Ton? Any posts are considered unncessary as well, even your supposed to be PAYTON but Pay Ton is necessary as well? The guy can posts all he wants, if he hates Leborn, he can post whatever he wants.
> ...


 

Just your posts, John. Your posts are ALWAYS necessary.

:laugh:


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

No, just want to know by telling a poster if his post is necessary is not arugmentive here.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

I'm sorry John. But I have no idea what you're trying to say. In fact, I never do.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Its funny how you can't say one bad thing about LeBron or the Cavs on this site without being a hater....


LeBron can enjoy his Rookie of the Year--while he's watch Dwyane and maybe Melo in the playoffs. LeBron put up great stats but he didn't get his team enough wins. Wade and Melo helped put their teams in the playoffs....and if someone wants to argue that a ROY award is better than making the playoffs--you need to realize what the game is about.



As Dwyane said a few days ago:

''I feel like this: I'm a winner,'' Wade said. ``My team is in the playoffs and I'm happy about that. The Rookie of the Year, LeBron and Carmelo can fight it out. I'm not going to worry about it. The playoffs mean more to me than individual awards.''


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Its funny how you can't say one bad thing about LeBron or the Cavs on this site without being a hater....
> 
> 
> LeBron can enjoy his Rookie of the Year--while he's watch Dwyane and maybe Melo in the playoffs. LeBron put up great stats but he didn't get his team enough wins. Wade and Melo helped put their teams in the playoffs....and if someone wants to argue that a ROY award is better than making the playoffs--you need to realize what the game is about.


So, you think if Wade were on the Cavs instead of LeBron, he would have led them to the playoffs?


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## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

Well maybe you can think about this.. Lebron will enjoy his ROY award and wade and melo can enjoy a first round exit? The cavs are looking to build a championship team with Lebron at teh centerpiece, same cant be said about wade and melo.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Well maybe you can think about this.. Lebron will enjoy his ROY award and wade and melo can enjoy a first round exit? The cavs are looking to build a championship team with Lebron at teh centerpiece, same cant be said about wade and melo.


Good post... in the long term, who makes the playoffs this year is not really a big deal. Cavs fans wanted to see if they could do it, and it was really fun to be good for a while there, but obviously greater things are yet to come.


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TyGuy</b>!
> Well maybe you can think about this.. Lebron will enjoy his ROY award and wade and melo can enjoy a first round exit? The cavs are looking to build a championship team with Lebron at teh centerpiece, same cant be said about wade and melo.


What does it matter if they are the centerpiece or not?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> Its funny how you can't say one bad thing about LeBron or the Cavs on this site without being a hater....


It's funny how some people can't stop saying bad things about a 19 year old kid who came straight from high school and is only the third rookie ever to do 20/5/5...

You don't catch people throwing hate at Dwayne Wade, and I've been one of the biggest Melo fans on this board.

And Hinrich gets NO love. In spite of the fact that he has arguably been the third best rookie this year. he is the only rookie to actually get a triple double this year. And he led the rookies in assists despite being on the lowest shooting team in the Bulls. But you don't see him getting any love whatsoever on the main board.

At the end of the day though, it's not a big deal. The Lebron haters are a minority on the boards, they just happen to be some of the loudest:grinning:


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> What does it matter if they are the centerpiece or not?


Because every championship team needs a centerpiece... nobody has ever won one without one. Are the Grizzlies going to win a championship? History shows you need that one guy. LeBron is going to be one of those guys.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Also. Melo and Wade can enjoy their first round exits.

Darko Millic and Luke Walton will be enjoying their minutes in the NBA Finals.

Darko for ROY!


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Also. Melo and Wade can enjoy their first round exits.
> 
> Darko Millic and Luke Walton will be enjoying their minutes in the NBA Finals.
> ...


Will Darko even see any minutes?


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## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

It just means lebron is the type of player you could actually build a team around to win a championship. Melo and wade as good as they are couldn’t be the centerpiece.

Had you replaced bron with melo or wade this team would have been even worse. The cavs interior defense might be the worst in the league. Boozer as good as he is all around offensively and crashing the boards is on the opposite end of the spectrum defensively. He is too slow to keep up with quicker pf's and has been known to make average pfs look great. He also gets eating alive by bigger more physical low post guys and Z is just plain soft and slow as molasses.

LeBron being probably an average defender at this stage of his career, looks like Ron Artest compared to their frontline. LeBron along with Iverson are probably the top two players at playing the passing lanes in the league

People tend to overrate Boozer and Ilgauskas because what they can do at times offensively but they NEVER bring it defensively. Teams no the cavs are soft inside and thus so many points are scored on them inside.

We haven’t even gone into the fact that the cavs didn’t have a starting point guard till more than half the season was over, they still don’t have a good small forward and their bench is garbage.

My point is I honestly don’t think you could put any guard in place of LeBron and get anywhere with this current team. Ilgauskas obviously has to go because boozer is extremely cheap and they need a good low post defender so they can stick booz on the weaker low post player.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Will Darko even see any minutes?


I wonder if they're going to use him like they did Tayshaun Prince last year, and start giving him some minutes in the playoffs. Chances are other teams won't have scouted him or prepared for him.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Once again, Ebi for ROY!!!


No votes for James Jones?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RoyWilliams</b>!
> Will Darko even see any minutes?


He will when the Pistons are squashing whichever western team shows up in the finals and underestimates the Pistons.

How cool would it be if Larry Brown was saving Darko for a Prince-like unveiling in the playoffs?

Point being though, what team you play on has nothing to do with how good of a player you are. Lebron is the best rookie player. Regardless of his team's record. Rookie of the Year is an individual award, so it's retarded to bring in team record into the arguement.

Obviously most any player would exchange their team awards for team success, but that doesn't mean it's not a nice feather in the cap of a player to get recognized. And I think Lebron deserves to get recognized for his individual achievements this year, namely being the first rookie since Jordan to do 20/5/5


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

To add a little to TyGuy's post... I'm sure I've been saying this a lot recently, but remember that the Cavaliers have had 18 different starters this season... they made two big deals during the season while trying to make the playoffs at the same time.. their two best players, the two that they asked to anchor the team while the coach was wildly experimenting with the rest of the lineup, are a rookie and a second year player. Frankly, the task LeBron was faced with this season was considerably more challenging than what Wade was asked to do in Miami, or what Carmelo was asked to do in Denver. They were trying to fix the team on the fly and win at the same time... all the while asking LeBron (and Boozer) to hold it together and lead them to wins. And on top of that, there's the hype. Hype is expectations. It's a lot of pressure, and a lot of scrutiny. Although the best is yet to come in Cleveland, they basically had to start winning ASAP because of all the build-up for LeBron. Think of all that hanging over a franchise during what is basically a rebuilding year.

It's remarkable that the Cavaliers came as close as they did to making the playoffs, considering the 25 games at the beginning of the season were basically a trial period for Ricky Davis, and the experimental rebuilding period that went on for a while mid-season.

There, that's just about every excuse I can think of for the Cavs not making the playoffs and why it isn't LeBron's fault. He carried the team to a great degree, but truthfully they had farther to go.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Also. Melo and Wade can enjoy their first round exits.
> 
> Darko Millic and Luke Walton will be enjoying their minutes in the NBA Finals.
> ...


Wait, futuristxen, aren't you in Jamel's sig?


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

oh wait, nevamind. I just read this post:



> He will when the Pistons are squashing whichever western team shows up in the finals and underestimates the Pistons.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>tpb2</b>!
> 
> 
> You missed the point. This game didnt mean anything. That doesnt mean you should love LeBron. It's called being realistic. My opinion was realistic, it wasnt worship just because it was in his defense. Bringing up today's game and saying there were implications when there weren't is a reason to question the motive. The Cavs and LeBron were out a few games back, and everyone already knew.


No you missed the point, it's called being realistic. Wade has once again led his team past both contenders, once while torching Carmelo and this time helping to keep LBJ out of the playoffs.


You failed to understand the motive, once again, another Lebron lover who will not shutup with the excuses, and if you watched the game you would know that Lebron sure as hell didn't think he was " out ".



> Your reaction is typical. I questioned the thread and you start with some eleborate, exaggerted stereotype against LeBron's realistic supporters. That's getting old, didnt you hear?


No, your reaction is typical, anytime you say something remotely bad, most of the Lebron lovers on this board get all huffy like little kids, they rush to his defense touting his age, his team, and any other tertiary concern; in order to excuse his bad play.


Stop with the high and mighty act, don't use words you can't spell ( elaborate) and stop acting like a lovestruck teenager. I provided empirical evidence, what did you provide, nothing just conjecture and silly statements.


That's getting old didn't you hear?


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## CrossOver (May 19, 2003)

The sky is falling.

Cats and Dogs living together.

And I actually agree with a Knicks fan! 

Oh the humanity.

:grinning:


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Wade has once again led his team past both contenders,


It's not Wade's team.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

*Re: Re: The Heat K.O. the Cavs!!!*



> Originally posted by <b>Pay Ton</b>!
> 
> 
> Is this really necessary?? We have known the Heat were gonna be in for quite a while now. This thread just fills the meaningless purpose of you campaigning for Wade to be ROY over Lebron. Which isn't gonna happen. Wade's a great player, he really is, but he's not getting ROY. But you know what, you're right, I think Ndudi Ebi should get ROY over both Lebron and Wade and Carmello, because The T'Wolves have the #1 seed in the West and have just been monstrous since they drafted Ebi.


It's compeletly necessary and you'd be foolish to understand it. For a guy who whines about logic and insight, and who takes it upon himself to assign value to others, you sure lack the ability to read in depth into a scenario.

Furthermore the witless sarcasm that is closer to a non-sequitor than a dry attempt at comparision is ridiculous, if you want to question people's logic at least try to come up with a somewhat cogent argument, that means try to find analagous situations, not just silly junk.



> Wow, well it's really clear you watch Lebron a lot and have much support and reason behind your opinion. At least your not like other posters who bash Lebron, who have no argument what so ever, and who really just wanna post meaningless trash. I completely agree with you. What an pathetic excuse for a rookie. I mean we're just asking him to lead his team into the playoffs in his first year in the NBA, coming straight outta high school.


Lead the most dominant power forward in the east, the most offensively efficent center, and a rather complete cast of role players into the playoffs.


You kids are so hilarious, so blind, and so in love. I honestly don't even know how you can take yourself seriously, I realize you are 17; this shouldn't preclude from looking at the bigger picture, not just posting silly little teenage comments.





> Another insightful post, with an unbiased opinion. What a dissapointing rookie season for Lebron. I mean what did he do?
> Well, I would post his stats, but I get tired of people jockriding Lebron just because he averages over 20 pts., 5 rebs., and 5 asts. per game. I mean he is way overhyped. And you wanna know why? Because he didn't lead his team to the playoffs. Once again, Ebi for ROY!!!


Don't you find it in the least bit sophmoric to question the value of others post, while all you have done is respond to these posts with witless sarcasm?

Furthermore all of those stats are up for debate, his horrific shooting percentage and shot volume, his turnovers, and the fact he plays with probably the best backcourt in the east for rebounding, save Detroit. Furthermore his minutes are ridiculous especially for a rookie, that's why people criticize these things.

Not to be a hater or whatever stupid term you ripped off from the latest Ying Yang albulm, but to simply level the playing field in an unlevel arena and setting.


Before you questions others look at stat sheet and watch a game! All you've done here is prove that you know how not to respond to people, good job.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> It's not Wade's team.


No, it's the heat, they have no definitive leader, I think that's important to note Nevus.


Dwayne Wade made an impact without dominating the ball or needing a ridiculous amount of shot attempts and minutes.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> No, it's the heat, they have no definitive leader, I think that's important to note Nevus.
> 
> 
> Dwayne Wade made an impact without dominating the ball or needing a ridiculous amount of shot attempts and minutes.


A very good impact, yes. But not nearly as much as the other two.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pay Ton</b>!
> 
> 
> Wait, futuristxen, aren't you in Jamel's sig?


The only reason I said Luke Walton was because I don't think the Spurs have a rookie on their team, unless Devin Brown is a rookie...but I was unsure.

A Spurs-Pistons final would be awesome.
But I would also be slightly partial to a Grizzlies-Pistons final, since I am a new member to the Grizz bandwagon.

It's tough to sort one's allegiences when one's favorite team keeps going to the lottery.

I would be really confused if the Lakers started sucking. At least I know who the enemy is.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> OMG POOR LEBRON LETS ALL WORSHIP HIM AND SERVE UNTO HIM, LET ALL NAYSERS OF LEBRON GO TO HELL BECAUSE THEY LIKE US SHOULD ENJOY HAVING AN INFERIOR PRODUCT PUSHED DOWN THEIR THROATS


Is this your empirical evidence? I must have missed a post. Because I can't find anything you've said in this thread beyond calling tbp2 out for spelling error.

If you want to see empirical evidence, stop wasting your time posting high and mighty criticisms and look back at tbp2's older posts on Lebron. He has done his homework on Lebron. Enough at least to be above criticisms of people who make posts such as what you posted.

And I agree with you, it's important to note that Wade is not the leader of the heat. Or as you say, they have no definitive leader(though I think that's debatable, because Odom has been a leader in this league ever since he entered it). It's important because Lebron has had to be the leader of the Cavs all year. Like Nevus said, he and boozer have been the only constants this year. Everything else about the team has been in flux. And yet he has been consistent with his effort and production from day one.(He has actually organized practices without Silas there.)

And also you list his minutes played as a detractor, when it is really yet another reason that Lebron is the better player. The fact that he has gone most of the season without a serious injury, playing 40 minutes a night is amazing for someone coming straight from high school. It takes a lot of endurance and moxy to do 40 minutes a night. Silas literally cannot afford to take him off the floor, because when he does the Cavs have a tendency to go to pieces.

Don't assume that Wade or Melo could log the 40 minutes, and in doing so put up better numbers.

If anything, the extra minutes can drag your numbers down. You are more apt to turn the ball over or miss jumpshots when you are tired. And your production on the back end of back to backs will also suffer.

So I view the fact that Lebron logged 40 minutes a game as a positive and something that he had over Melo and Wade.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> And Hinrich gets NO love. In spite of the fact that he has arguably been the third best rookie this year. he is the only rookie to actually get a triple double this year. And he led the rookies in assists despite being on the lowest shooting team in the Bulls. But you don't see him getting any love whatsoever on the main board.


A f'n men. 12-7-4 isnt much worse than 16-4-4. Wade is a more efficient scorer, but Hinrichs main strength is defense which doesnt show up in the stats since hes not a gambling defender. Hes a lockdown defender. Wade and Hinrich are on the same level. 

I personally feel like Wade has been extremely overrated on these boards, and Hinrich has been underrated by everyone except Bulls fans. I think Hinrich will end up be on the same level as Wade. People act like Wade is a franchise player, but I just dont see that. I love his game, hes an excellent player, but I think he'll just be a star. Not a superstar or franchise guy. I think the same about Hinrich. 

Anyways, when its said and done, Lebron and Melo will be the franchise players. Bosh will be also IMO, but a level down. Then Hinrich and Wade will follow those three as far as calibur of player. Darko is still the huge question mark. 

One of the more underrated rookies is also Chris Kaman. The reason is hes a center. He could easily be a top 10 player at his position by next year since the center position is weak. I watch 80% of Clipper games, and that guy will be a very good starting center for many years. Excellent hands, nice touch, good rebounder, all the fundamental things a center should do. He fits perfect next to Brand.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> A f'n men. 12-7-4 isnt much worse than 16-4-4. Wade is a more efficient scorer, but Hinrichs main strength is defense which doesnt show up in the stats since hes not a gambling defender. Hes a lockdown defender. Wade and Hinrich are on the same level.
> ...


If Hinrich dunked more and got on sportscenter it might help. Or if the Bulls didn't just flat out stink it up this year. But yeah, Hinrich gets no love. And really to a lesser extent, neither does Chris Bosh.

It's funny the degrees to which you can take the whole over/underrated thing. Because certainly relative to Melo and James, Wade doesn't get a lot of attention. But then relative to Wade, Hinrich and Bosh don't get any attention.

My rookie rankings are after Melo and Bron:

1. Hinrich
2. Wade
3. Ford
4. Bosh
And guys like Marquis Daniels and Josh Howard are milling around somewhere here.

After that it's a crap shoot of guys I haven't seen enough of. Like Pietrus, Diaw, and definitely Kaman(I agree with what you said about Kaman, he's shown himself to be very solid. I was pretty high on him in the draft, so I'm happy to see it work out for him.)

Just an outstanding rookie crop.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

^^Yea, those rookie rankings are pretty accurate. Bosh is not as good this year as the three above him. Hes only 19 and his production is coming from him playing out of position with a body thats still extremely underdeveloped. Thats impressive. Hes explosive as hell, athletic as hell, and has range all the way out to the three point line already. That kid could be special if he gets stronger.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pay Ton</b>!
> I'm sorry John. But I have no idea what you're trying to say. In fact, I never do.


Oh okay, you are telling some mod if his post is necessary? I meant any posts or things can be conisder as not necessary. Your screename as "Pay ton" is uncessary as well, why dont just have a screename as "Payton"


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

somebody had to mention Hinrich and how he gets no respect. Hes had a good year, but is not at Wade's level

Wade is getting
16.4 ppg
4.5 apg
4.1 rpg
1.43 spg
.55 bpg
on the best shooting percentage out of all rookies in the nba

Hinrich is getting
12.1
6.6 apg
3.4 rpg
1.36 steals
.26 bpg
on 38.7 fg percentage

and if u want to talk turnovers the "next stockton" is gettin 2.73 a game. The converted sg to pg is gettin less than 1 more. More points, rebounds, steals, blocks, and a much better fg percentage. Better defensive stats, and he is a great defender himself, especially with his size and streghth at pg. Also Wade plays for the much better team, which has to mean something. Its not even close this year between these 2 . Just Bulls fans wantin to start sumthin to get their guy some talk. 

Now back with Lebron vs Wade vs Melo which it seems this topic has come to, Wade is not close to Lebron this year, period. I dont think much else needs to be said. At the beginning of the year vd Carmelo, i thought wade was close, but with the way Melo has come up big since the allstar break, Wade is not close to his level either, and this is coming from a heat fan. Wade is the third best rookie, who would be the best many other years. He will be in the second round of the playoffs as well, while the other 2 watch the heat suceed. 

As a said already, Lebron will be their next year. They should of been their this year. They have the best pf-c combo in the east (not sayin that much) and with talent like Lebron, Wagner, Mcinnis at the guard position, they should of been in. They also have a good coach and are good at the position not named yet with veterans like Williams and Brown holding that spot ( and yes i know hes hurt). Most people say they overacheived this year, well im going the opposite and saying they underacheived. About a month ago, peole were saying they might be the 5th seed, they are rollin and so on, but than they just collapsed after the injury of Mcinnis. A collapse is underacheiving, not overacheiving.


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## RoyWilliams (May 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> It's important because Lebron has had to be the leader of the Cavs all year. Like Nevus said, he and boozer have been the only constants this year. Everything else about the team has been in flux.


Since when has Z not been a constant this year on the Cavs?


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## ToddMacCulloch11 (May 31, 2003)

Why does everything the heat does have to be a huge message? Great, they were bad and now they are in the playoffs. Look at the Grizzlies, look at the rockets. They were horrible and now they are in, and I don't see a thread everyday about what they did the day before.


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## PetroToZoran (Jul 2, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ToddMacCulloch11</b>!
> Why does everything the heat does have to be a huge message? Great, they were bad and now they are in the playoffs. Look at the Grizzlies, look at the rockets. They were horrible and now they are in, and I don't see a thread everyday about what they did the day before.



Because they get no RESPECT ! ! !


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Is this your empirical evidence? I must have missed a post. Because I can't find anything you've said in this thread beyond calling tbp2 out for spelling error.



You did, scroll down.



> If you want to see empirical evidence, stop wasting your time posting high and mighty criticisms and look back at tbp2's older posts on Lebron. He has done his homework on Lebron. Enough at least to be above criticisms of people who make posts such as what you posted.



I don't I list the factors that level the playing field.



> And I agree with you, it's important to note that Wade is not the leader of the heat. Or as you say, they have no definitive leader(though I think that's debatable, because Odom has been a leader in this league ever since he entered it). It's important because Lebron has had to be the leader of the Cavs all year. Like Nevus said, he and boozer have been the only constants this year. Everything else about the team has been in flux. And yet he has been consistent with his effort and production from day one.(He has actually organized practices without Silas there.)



Odom a leader since he's been in the league? Leader to what , he got suspeneded for drug use!

I believe also that when your roster consists of Quality people like Williams Boozer, and in some sense Tony Battie, being, that whatever leadership attributes Lebron displays get blown way out of proportion by the media as just more hype. He has a quality locker room presence to back up nearly anything he says.


Also while everything has been in a semi-flux, it's important to note that it all has changed for the better, and that each time a change occured the cavs as a team got better, I think that's huge when you attempt to label the seasonal changes as something negative.



> And also you list his minutes played as a detractor, when it is really yet another reason that Lebron is the better player. The fact that he has gone most of the season without a serious injury, playing 40 minutes a night is amazing for someone coming straight from high school. It takes a lot of endurance and moxy to do 40 minutes a night. Silas literally cannot afford to take him off the floor, because when he does the Cavs have a tendency to go to pieces.
> 
> 
> If anything, the extra minutes can drag your numbers down. You are more apt to turn the ball over or miss jumpshots when you are tired. And your production on the back end of back to backs will also suffer.
> ...


They can and when they are allowed to they do. If you read my post you'd know that I really don't want melo to win this award,

But to say that somehow 40 minutes a night is detrimental to statistics is just silly, for every jump shot, you have the occasional garbage time assist and dunk, and yes this brings up another point.


Players playing the full 40 have to know not only when to pace themselves but how to play the game, you have to know your limits and the best way to deal with fatigue, and that of course is not jacking up errant jumpshot after errant jumpshot.


In my mind Wade did more with less of a team, they have no inside presence, Caron has had a terrible, terrible year, they had to learn an entirely new system, and they've had no reliable pointguard. 


Yet somehow they found a way to wind based on team chemistry and match up problems alone, I think a lot of that is what Wade brings. No, he doesn't put up the best stats, but the heat with and without him are a different team.

Wade opens up the floor like no other player, at any moment he is bound to attack and destroy the rim, forcing defense and the person who is guarding him to play a certain way.


His first step is ridiculous, it's like a launch pad, he gives the heat penetration, excellent help and wing defense, and a guy who will not only defer his shots, but looks to get people the best possible shot.


He does a lot, without dominating the ball, he and the heat have developed a very fluid team offense, I think he deserves credit for this.


Someone mentioned hinrich, yes hinrich is awesome, leading all rookies in double doubles and without a doubt the best pure point drafted. The kid is just ridiculous with his court vision and his ability to make a team offense out of the baby bulls.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Someone mentioned hinrich, yes hinrich is awesome, leading all rookies in double doubles and without a doubt the best pure point drafted. The kid is just ridiculous with his court vision and his ability to make a team offense out of the baby bulls.


I'm glad we agree on something.  Not to mention his gritty toughness on defense, I've seen him give a lot of trouble to Marbury and Iverson, two of the best offensive guards in the league.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm glad we agree on something.  Not to mention his gritty toughness on defense, I've seen him give a lot of trouble to Marbury and Iverson, two of the best offensive guards in the league.



I was always real high on Heinrich, a watch few college games, because they bore me but the few games I saw him in was really kinda awestruck on just how.... I don't quite know what verbiage to use but he seems real at home on the court, and he really knows how to play the game well, especially at the 1 spot. I gues it's more of uh just uh I dunno the kid is real focused and calm, but plays real tough, he never seems to get flustered.


If you check way back when people were saying he would be a bust ( I think in the begining of the season he was having huge turn over problems) you'll note I was one of the few people who touted his legitimacy as a draft pick.


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