# Trade Ricky or Dajaun?



## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

Now before you get all fired up... let me 'splain this.

I was reading the USAToday, and it listed the 10 youngest players in the NBA (and the ten oldest), and DaJaun is the 3rd youngest. As the 3rd youngest on this list, Wanny averages the 2nd highest minutes per game, averages the most points per game, and averages the most assists per game. Now I know this is just in comparison to the other 10 listed, but obviously DaJaun is just scratching his potential.

And so is Ricky. The end of last season, and all of this season he has shown he can be a goto scorer. So.... saying that..... I don't think there is room for both on this team.

-DaJaun is short for a SG.
-Ricky is perfect height for a SG.
-Both are signed for at least 4 years, but Dajaun is much cheaper per year.
-Both play barely average defense.
-Neither can play point (start a different thread if you REALLY think Wagner is gonna blossom at point guard - I don't)
-SG is the best position for Wagner (not PG)
-SG is the best position for Davis (not SF)
-Both can create their own shot, but do it in different ways.
-Wagner has better 3 pt range and accuracy than Davis.
-Wagner has a better FT % than Davis.
-Davis takes it to the rim harder than Wagner.
-Davis is very vocal and demonstrative.
-Wagner is very quiet and workmanlike.
- I like Wagner, but I like Ricky (for the most part) more.

Can this team afford these two talents playing at the same position? Would we be better off drafting a new SF (LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, or Darko Milicic), and trading D Miles and either Ricky or Dajaun to strengthen our team in a different way? Who would YOU trade, who would you keep between these two?

For me.... I think Wanny can be a solid starter.... but I gotta stay with Ricky as my SG. His height, and he is proving that he can score day-in and day-out against just about any team, and his high-flying act, tip the scales to him for me. Wanny's height is never gonna get better. Period. He is strong, but he has to create his shot using that little running, arching, floater shot... and that is not as efficient as Ricky's shake and bake, rise up and hit the 15 footer.

Stick Ricky at the SG. Draft the best SF available. Plug in Boozer at the PF. Z and Diop at C. Trade any combination of Wagner, D Miles, or Mihm for either a top-notch PG, or for another high lottery pick and take Reese Gaines for our point.

Starters:

PG- Reese Gaines 6'6 185
SG- Ricky Davis 6'7 200
SF- LeBron James 6'8 240
PF- Carlos Boozer 6'9 260
C- Zydrunas Illgauskis 7'3 260

Subs:
PG- Smush Parker 6'4 180
SG- Jumaine Jones 6'8 220
SF- D Miles 6'9 210
PF- Brian Cook 6'10 240 (2nd round draft pick)
C- Diop 7'0 300


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## CaponeNNoreaga (Jul 18, 2002)

*This is a very tough decision......*

I like Ricky Davis myself more than Wagner...So i would have to try and trade Wags and some others for TJ Ford..He will be a good player great leadership and can pass superbly (Andre Miller)

SL
PG: T.J.Ford
SG: R.Davis
SF: D.Milicic or L.James (depends on pos.)
PF: C.Boozer
C: Z.Ilgauskas

Bench
PG: Smush Parker
SG: J.Bender
SF: Darius Miles
PF: Brian Cook
C: Chris Mihm

Package Diop and Jones for a young SG say...Jonathan Bender even though it may prove to be a rough postiton for him..Lineup relaticely the same as MongolMikes accept a few changes


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: This is a very tough decision......*



> Originally posted by <b>CavsFanInFL</b>!
> I like Ricky Davis myself more than Wagner...So i would have to try and trade Wags and some others for TJ Ford..He will be a good player great leadership and can pass superbly (Andre Miller)
> 
> SL
> ...


So would you rather have the possiblity of a more stronger, slightly bigger Iverson or another Jerry Stackhouse


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## Vintage (Nov 8, 2002)

*Re: Re: This is a very tough decision......*



> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> So would you rather have the possiblity of a more stronger, slightly bigger Iverson or another Jerry Stackhouse


Iverson and Wagner arent the same players. True, both are undersized 2's, but c'mon. AI is so damn quick/fast. Wagner can become a good scorer, doubt as good as AI, but a better shooter than AI. Wagner will never have AI's quickness/speed........not that many ever will mind you.

I just don't think Wagner is going to be like Iverson.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: This is a very tough decision......*



> Originally posted by <b>Vintage</b>!
> 
> 
> Iverson and Wagner arent the same players. True, both are undersized 2's, but c'mon. AI is so damn quick/fast. Wagner can become a good scorer, doubt as good as AI, but a better shooter than AI. Wagner will never have AI's quickness/speed........not that many ever will mind you.
> ...


Their games are very similar. Hes not as fast but every other aspect of their games are similar.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!
> -Wagner has better 3 pt range and accuracy than Davis.


Actually, Davis is a better three-point shooter.

I would try to trade Davis, Miles, and the Cavs 2003 second to the Bulls for their first round pick and a guy like Marcus Fizer.

The Cavs could be...
PG: Dajuan Wagner (Doesn't like to play PG, but he could learn)
SG: Jarvis Hayes/Reece Gaines
SF: LeBron James
PF: Carlos Boozer
C: Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Bench:
PG: Smush Parker
SG: Jumaine Jones
SF: Marcus Fizer
PF: Chris Mihm
C: DeSagana Diop

Ricky Davis is known to be selfish, and if I could have Hayes/Gaines, James, and Wagner on the same team, I'd jump on that opportunity the first chance I'd get.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

*Re: This is a very tough decision......*



> Originally posted by <b>CavsFanInFL</b>!
> Package Diop and Jones for a young SG say...Jonathan Bender even though it may prove to be a rough postiton for him..Lineup relaticely the same as MongolMikes accept a few changes


Bender is 7 feet tall, I don't remember the last time a 7 foot tall SG played in the NBA. Bender is a SF/PF.


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## NYJ1680 (Dec 26, 2002)

I think the Cavs would be better off keeping Ricky and dealing Dajuan for a true PG or a high draft pick. Wagner needs a ton of shots just like AI, but he's not as good a shooter and he doesn't get to the basket as well. While both Ricky and Dajuan aren't great defenders, Ricky atleast has good size to become more of a physical force on that end in the future, Dajuan doesn't seem to be that kind of player. 

As for a PG in the draft I think TJ Ford would be a better fit than Reece Gaines. Gaines has a lot better size, but Ford is a natural point guard who is an outstanding floor general. The Cavs need that kind of leadership.


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*Responding to the various posts....*

I have to agree that I don't see the same game in Wagner as I do Iverson. Iverson is just so freakin' quick, and he gets his shot off so fast. Wagner is ok quick, but not anything like A.I. And I think Wagner is stronger going to the basket, but A.I. is slippery... he's not gonna muscle through to the hoop, but he's gonna slither and squeak and get hacked and make the basket and get to the FT line too.

Damian- I think Wags has a better 3 pt %, and he just looks more comfortable pulling the trigger on the 3 than Ricky. I kinda think Wags can easily hit the 3 from 2 or 3 feet BEHIND the 3 point line easily.... whereas Ricky's strength is really the mid-range jumper. Sure, he can hit the three, but Wags just looks like he can do it easier.

CavsfaninFl & NYJ1680 - ok, Ford would be fine with me at point guard.... and yes, I went with Gaines mainly for the size (and the fact that he can play PG). Cleveland has not had a decent BIG PG... we always get the little guys (Brevin Knight, Mark Price, John Bagley, Kevin Johnson.... heck, even Andre is only 6'2). I'm just thinking of matchups. Ford is a great talent though, and I'd be happy with a draft of LeBron and Ford! And I agree again with you NYJ, that Ricky's size is a positive... we all have to admit that size is a factor on defense, especially if you got the quicks to go with it. Ricky just needs to push himself to put as much energy into defense as he does offense. That is asking a lot.... but there it is.

Thanks for the input guys.... looks like it is 3 votes to keep Ricky, and 2 to keep Wags. I'll call Paxson and tell him what we the fans have decided!!:grinning:


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!
> Now before you get all fired up... let me 'splain this.
> 
> I was reading the USAToday, and it listed the 10 youngest players in the NBA (and the ten oldest), and DaJaun is the 3rd youngest. As the 3rd youngest on this list, Wanny averages the 2nd highest minutes per game, averages the most points per game, and averages the most assists per game. Now I know this is just in comparison to the other 10 listed, but obviously DaJaun is just scratching his potential.
> ...


Unless u guys get Lebron or Melo and that is IF cause the lottery hasn't even been conducted yet then you guys have to trade one of these players. Ricky D and Wagner are defined scorers and their attitude is different when they aren't the first option. Lebron-Davis-Wagner and Melo-Davis-Wagner looks really good since it is 3 20 ppg scorers there but the truth is that they will never coexist like Iverson to Stackhouse


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: Responding to the various posts....*



> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!
> I have to agree that I don't see the same game in Wagner as I do Iverson. Iverson is just so freakin' quick, and he gets his shot off so fast. Wagner is ok quick, but not anything like A.I. And I think Wagner is stronger going to the basket, but A.I. is slippery... he's not gonna muscle through to the hoop, but he's gonna slither and squeak and get hacked and make the basket and get to the FT line too.
> 
> Damian- I think Wags has a better 3 pt %, and he just looks more comfortable pulling the trigger on the 3 than Ricky. I kinda think Wags can easily hit the 3 from 2 or 3 feet BEHIND the 3 point line easily.... whereas Ricky's strength is really the mid-range jumper. Sure, he can hit the three, but Wags just looks like he can do it easier.
> ...


U r right...Iverson possesses quickness that allows him to BEAT any defender. Wagner is slower but still quick and he also does not possess the dribbling that AI does. Their shooting is about the same.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Responding to the various posts....*



> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> 
> 
> U r right...Iverson possesses quickness that allows him to BEAT any defender. Wagner is slower but still quick and he also does not possess the dribbling that AI does. Their shooting is about the same.


I'm confused. Wagner has a vicious handle


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Responding to the various posts....*



> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm confused. Wagner has a vicious handle


As a Cavs fan, I would not describe his handle as vicious. Competent - yes. A.I. like- no way. Wagner will take advantage of a crease and drive to the basket for a lay-up (or usually the floating, running, arching, jump shot)... but he can not break ankles like A.I. does. In fact, it's Wagner's speed around corners, not his dribbling prowess that lets him break a guy down. I am not an A.I. fan... but the guy is extrordinary in his talent... and one thing A.I. does so well that Wagner does not do at all, is pass off in traffic. Wags will take the shot when he is closed out, Iverson will pass off occasionally.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Responding to the various posts....*



> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!
> 
> 
> As a Cavs fan, I would not describe his handle as vicious. Competent - yes. A.I. like- no way. Wagner will take advantage of a crease and drive to the basket for a lay-up (or usually the floating, running, arching, jump shot)... but he can not break ankles like A.I. does. In fact, it's Wagner's speed around corners, not his dribbling prowess that lets him break a guy down. I am not an A.I. fan... but the guy is extrordinary in his talent... and one thing A.I. does so well that Wagner does not do at all, is pass off in traffic. Wags will take the shot when he is closed out, Iverson will pass off occasionally.


I could understand that but I will not change my assesment of his handle as I have seen him play since he was at Camden and played against him a few times. Its not AI like but its a Damn good one


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## fanofthegame780 (Mar 6, 2003)

keep them both i say...wait for the draft lottery and see what your position is and make moves from there...if you get the #1, your taking lebron james of course...i think he's a 3 if he's a legit 6'8 and plus the big SF are in the west anyway...keep dmiles at the four hoping his body is finally getting used to the added bulk he put on last summer(his knees have looked weak this season), and maybe condition that bulk into pure muscle and i think the cavs are good...now if your not picking #1 and you guys are dead set on having james i think a trade involving juanny and davis are your best bets...hell maybe have to trade em both to get the #1 cuz its gonna take alot for a team to pass on james...either way i think paxson is kicking himself for the dmiles trade even though i still think he can be a stud so he's gonna try to get james at all cost...alot of what happens with the guards depends on dmiles development and the chance of drafting james...in a perfedt world, the cavs would get the first pick, take james, play him at 3 and your starting lineup is set with Z in the middle...so basically either your losing both your guards or one of them plus miles and your 1st rnd draft pick...just my opinion....sorry if too long...peace


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Responding to the various posts....*



> Originally posted by <b>BEEZ</b>!
> Its not AI like but its a Damn good one


Agreed.


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*...*



> Originally posted by <b>fanofthegame780</b>!
> ...if you get the #1, your taking lebron james of course...i think he's a 3 if he's a legit 6'8 and plus the big SF are in the west anyway...keep dmiles at the four hoping his body is finally getting used to the added bulk he put on last summer(his knees have looked weak this season), and maybe condition that bulk into pure muscle and i think the cavs are good...


Only problem is that Miles is not and has not been playing power forward... Carlos Boozer is the clear starter at PF, and Boozer was splitting time with Tyrone Hill (now cut and back with Philly). 

I think if the Cavs get LeBron, one, if not possibly two of the three (Wagner, Davis, Miles) could be traded for a legit PG, or another lottery pick and then take a PG with that pick... TJ Ford as some have suggested.

Knowing that the lottery can change everything, but just going by teams that will have a lottery pick (and probably not a top 3 pick)....
Would Memphis trade it's lottery pick for DaJaun Wagner?
Would Atlanta trade it's lottery pick for either DaJaun or Ricky?
Would Miami trade it's lottery pick for D Miles?
Would Chicago trade Jay Williams for D Miles straight up?


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: ...*



> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!
> Would Chicago trade Jay Williams for D Miles straight up?



 This is a trade I never thought of


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*...*

I suggested it a while ago.... Miles isn't happy here, and I think he wants back to home area (Illinois), and Williams is clearly not fitting in there.... maybe re-unite him with Boozer, and a more open offense? Works for me... I'd do it.

I think I checked it on RealGM, and it works fine.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: ...*



> Originally posted by <b>Mongolmike</b>!
> I suggested it a while ago.... Miles isn't happy here, and I think he wants back to home area (Illinois), and Williams is clearly not fitting in there.... maybe re-unite him with Boozer, and a more open offense? Works for me... I'd do it.
> 
> I think I checked it on RealGM, and it works fine.


The only thing with that is they would have a dangerously small backcourt in Williams and Wagner


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*right*

but as I posted earlier, I'm keeping Ricky before I keep Wags....

I get a SF in the draft (LbJ, or Carmelo), put Ricky at the SG and Jay at the PG. Wags either comes off the bench, like Vinnie "the Microwave" Johnson for instant offense, or he gets traded for a player that fits our team needs better.

PG- Jay Williams
SG- Ricky Davis
SF- LbJ or Carmelo
PF- Boozer
C- Z

And you know what.... looking at that line-up doesn't knock me over. It is still missing the part we need most. A solid defender. Now of those guys, except maybe Boozer, play rock-solid shut-down defense-is-my-priority defense. Most of these guys don't even play solid TEAM defense. They play HIGHLIGHT defense... go for the steal so I can dunk defense. I guess I just don't know....


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## Wagner2 (Jun 29, 2002)

I would rather have Juanny...

He seems to gel better with the Cavs. I think he's the type of person that can help restore a dead franchise. I also think he would be more willling to share the ball with 'Bron or Anthony if they become Cavs. Davis seems to have a bad attitude, comes off as selfish on the court, and doesn't seem like the type of guy I would want to build my franchise around (you could never convince me that he wasn't one of, if not the main reason Lucas is out of here). I also love Boozer at PF, for now at least, I think there are bigger problems that need addrssed. So we have Wags at the 2 and Boozer at the 4... A player that we have not talked about getting traded is Z. I know he's good, but his health is a MAJOR concern, he's no getting any younger, and he has a huge contract (the max, I believe)... Anyway, aside from that note on Z, the Cavs should now draft the best SF with their pick, now we have Dajuan, LeBron/CA, and Boozer. Now C and PG are the question. Zydrunas is obviously a great center now (especially in the east), but I would love to drop him for the cap relief. I just realized I've been rambling on, so I apologize. But what about this: Z and (??) for the Sonics 1st round pick (assuming still top 10) and a filler (Jerome James?). The Cavs now draft TJ Ford, Reese Gaines, whoever. 

PG - Ford/Gaines
SG - Wagner
SF - LeBron/CA
PF - Boozer
C - Jerome James? Mihm? Free Agent (with Z money?)

6th man - DMiles 

We really wouldn't need a dominant center with the draftees and Wagner, Boozer can get his rebonds and hopefully the new center can get his share too. There's clearly no reason to run the high pos offense through Z with the players we would have outside.


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*...*



> Originally posted by <b>Wagner2</b>!
> I would rather have Juanny...
> 
> He seems to gel better with the Cavs. I think he's the type of person that can help restore a dead franchise. I also think he would be more willling to share the ball with 'Bron or Anthony if they become Cavs. Davis seems to have a bad attitude, comes off as selfish on the court, and doesn't seem like the type of guy I would want to build my franchise around (you could never convince me that he wasn't one of, if not the main reason Lucas is out of here). I also love Boozer at PF, for now at least, I think there are bigger problems that need addrssed. So we have Wags at the 2 and Boozer at the 4... A player that we have not talked about getting traded is Z. I know he's good, but his health is a MAJOR concern, he's no getting any younger, and he has a huge contract (the max, I believe)... Anyway, aside from that note on Z, the Cavs should now draft the best SF with their pick, now we have Dajuan, LeBron/CA, and Boozer. Now C and PG are the question. Zydrunas is obviously a great center now (especially in the east), but I would love to drop him for the cap relief. I just realized I've been rambling on, so I apologize. But what about this: Z and (??) for the Sonics 1st round pick (assuming still top 10) and a filler (Jerome James?). The Cavs now draft TJ Ford, Reese Gaines, whoever.
> ...


Wagner2, I agree with pretty much everything you said, but I gotta "tweak" a few things. Keeping Wagner over Davis at SG does leave us pretty small in the backcourt if we draft Ford (as someone else pointed out earlier). Of course, if the offensive output of a Wagner/Ford backcourt produces like A.I. and Snow... then you accept the good with the difficult matchups on defense.

The second thing, I like Z, but if he was traded.... ok. But you forgot to mention Diop as a possible succesor in the middle instead/or in addition to Jerome James/Mihm.

By the way, with your handle being Wagner2.... why did it not surprise me that you would rather keep Wags over Ricky?!?:grinning:


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## TheBowski (Jun 12, 2002)

*Here's a suggestion...*

Since Lebron is supposed to have this great court vision and passing, why not have him play the point-forward, much like Grant Hill used to in Detroit. He would bring the ball down the court on offense, and guard the small forward on defense. Wagner can defend the opposing point guard, with Ricky playing the SG on both offense and defense.

If we are trading anybody, trade Miles, he sucks. I hate him.

PG-Wagner(D only)
SG- Davis
SF- James
PF- Boozer
C- Z

That's not a bad lineup in a few years I don't say so myself.


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Here's a suggestion...*



> Originally posted by <b>TheBowski</b>!
> Since Lebron is supposed to have this great court vision and passing, why not have him play the point-forward, much like Grant Hill used to in Detroit. He would bring the ball down the court on offense, and guard the small forward on defense. Wagner can defend the opposing point guard, with Ricky playing the SG on both offense and defense.


Yup. That has been suggested and discussed before in this forum and in the NBA forum. 6'8" 240 with good court vision is a tough PG match-up.


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