# No wonder T-mac left toronto



## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

Go to T-mac.com>Media>Go to the bottom where it says "T-mac making it happen"...

View that video..near the end he does a siccck dunk during a game.. you can see toronto fans in the background just sitting down... where the heck are all the fans? they should stand up and be yelling..heh

everytime tmac does a dunk (even if its simple everyone at td waterhouse gets up)..


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

The go crazy for Vince all the time.


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> The go crazy for Vince all the time.


Ya but if ANDREW Deqlerq did a dunk like that (andrew dq being a no namer to most people..especially if he didnt start so much)... I would get up off my feet and be cheering.. you dont see that all the time..


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## Frost (Jun 22, 2003)

[strike]Your a freakin idiot[/strike], don't even try to compare magic fans to raptors fans. What do you average a game 14000? Raptors average close to 18000. And that video only had one highlight of tmac in toronto, and all he did was a nice jump shot. It didn't show one dunk IN toronto.

[attacks on other posters will not be tolerated - J]


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Frost</b>!
> [strike]Your a freakin idiot[/strike], don't even try to compare magic fans to raptors fans. What do you average a game 14000? Raptors average close to 18000. And that video only had one highlight of tmac in toronto, and all he did was a nice jump shot. It didn't show one dunk IN toronto.
> 
> [attacks on other posters will not be tolerated - J]


 :laugh: 

he does DUNK..if you look after he steals it...he's on the other end doing a sick dunk..u didnt watch it thru all the way..


so..what...you have the entire canada areas and cities around it going to the game..toronto raptors are only team in canada so people from all over canada go to see it...

magic games sell out..and capacity is 20kish anyways... we would avg 18k as well but we lost 19 in a row..and it went down but its picking back up again..


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

The Magic are finally playing TEAM basketball and they are winning because of it. They are going to start drawing more people to their games. Do you think just maybe that Toronto has had bigger crowds lately because they wanted to see the newly aquired Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall


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## hogey11 (Aug 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> 
> so..what...you have the entire canada areas and cities around it going to the game..toronto raptors are only team in canada so people from all over canada go to see it...



hmmm...

might be one of the most uninformed statements of all time. I hope I misunderstood this as Canada is larger in land mass than the United States. Toronto and all its suburbs (which span out over at least 50-75 miles) has about 4.5 million people. Then factor in that Canada is a Hockey-crazy country that doesn't respond extremely well to Basketball, AND that Toronto is the home of the Maple Leafs, maybe the most popular hockey team in the world. On top of that, there are far fewer people in Canada (only about 35 million throughout), meaning tourism within the country is much, much smaller, and then the fact that everyone outside of Ontario has a small vendetta against Ontario, and doesn't jump at the chance to visit as often as possible. 

The Raptors fans are LEGIT. They are fighting all the odds. The Grizz are a testament to that, as Vancouver basically is the exact same city, with a few less people, but more tourism. Don't knock the Toronto fans, they support their team fully. T-mac left cause he felt he would be better off playing with Grant Hill and co. Enough said. 


PS: our taxes probably had a lot to do with it too


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

> magic games sell out..and capacity is 20kish anyways


Nope. 17k.

http://www.orlandocentroplex.com/tdwaterhouse.shtml



> The Raptors fans are LEGIT. They are fighting all the odds. The Grizz are a testament to that,


How are the Memphis Grizzlies a testament to anything? The Grizz leaving Canada means absolutely nothing as far as the Raptors are concerned. They didn't leave simply because it's Canada. Raptors fans are fighting nothing. I find it strange that someone would call Toronto and Vancouver practically the same city. With a few less people? : Have you been to both cities? Do you know their populations? .... Just like how Orlando is the same city as Atlanta with * a few * less people.  

And what he said wasn't totally ludicrous. He just didn't say it very well. People from the surrounding parts of Canada *DO* go to Raptors games. They *are* the only team in the country (area). I'm not saying people fly from one side of the country to the other, that would be rediculous, but people from the immediate outside areas of Toronto DO travel to the city to see games. And I can't quiet figure out why you even mentioned tourism or Canada's total population. You mind explaining that one?


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## hogey11 (Aug 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> 
> How are the Memphis Grizzlies a testament to anything? The Grizz leaving Canada means absolutely nothing as far as the Raptors are concerned. They didn't leave simply because it's Canada. Raptors fans are fighting nothing. I find it strange that someone would call Toronto and Vancouver practically the same city. With a few less people? : Have you been to both cities? Do you know their populations? .... Just like how Orlando is the same city as Atlanta with * a few * less people.
> 
> And what he said wasn't totally ludicrous. He just didn't say it very well. People from the surrounding parts of Canada *DO* go to Raptors games. They *are* the only team in the country (area). I'm not saying people fly from one side of the country to the other, that would be rediculous, but people from the immediate outside areas of Toronto DO travel to the city to see games. And I can't quiet figure out why you even mentioned tourism or Canada's total population. You mind explaining that one?


On one hand, you are correct. The Grizzlies were hit hard by ownership issues, a horrible front office, and weak support from the business community. They didnt leave because of Canada, but they did leave due to a big reason called "lack of fan and business support".

For me to say the raptors are "fighting" the same thing as the grizz would be confusing unless you knew the dynamics within Canada. One, our country is not exactly the same as the States. We have a much larger landmass, but about 15% of the population. The concentration of people is very much spread out. You cannot just drive out from eastern Ontario to go catch a Raptors game. That would be the equivalent of you driving from Orlando to Atlanta to catch a hawks game. So, lower population plus a smaller concentration of people = less of a fan base.

Toronto and Vancouver are very different cities in culture and feel. However, in demographic terms, they are very much the same. Interests are about the same, and the financial aspect of both cities is about the same as well. However, a LARGE aspect is that when people are faced between shelling out $60 to see a Raptors game or a Leafs game (in Vancouver, Grizz or Canucks), 90% will choose the Leafs (or the Nucks). Its that plain simple. However, in terms of size, they are about the same. They are both urban sprawls, with larger suburbs than cities. For example, the suburb i live in is a full hour and a bit away from what you would call downtown, yet I am still from "Vancouver". I realize this is the case with many cities, but outside of my suburb, the next noteworthy city is 4 hours away. Finally, in general, Canadians have a much lower expendable income, making sports and entertainment less readily available. I have been to both cities, Toronto has 4.5 million in its greater area, Vancouver is about 3.5 million. 

If you read the first line of my post, i echoed your sentiments towards him wording it badly. I hope that was the case as well, just thought i'd let him know how it really is up here and that the Raptors fans are really great. They are every bit as good as the fans in the TD waterhouse centre and even those in teh Staples center. To say Raptors fans dont support thier team as much as anyone else is ludicrous, and thats what I was responding to. Any more questions? 

(please dont take my earlier post as a flame as it was not meant in that fashion)


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

LoL.. chill out guys.. I was just surprised no one stood up for that dunk and started cheering. I'm not saying Raptors fans suck


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## MentalPowerHouse (Oct 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> 
> 
> And what he said wasn't totally ludicrous. He just didn't say it very well. People from the surrounding parts of Canada *DO* go to Raptors games. They *are* the only team in the country (area). I'm not saying people fly from one side of the country to the other, that would be rediculous, but people from the immediate outside areas of Toronto DO travel to the city to see games.


Can't that pretty much be said about every team? Yes Toronto draws fans from Southern Ontario, but don't most NBA teams also draw fans from their state? or atleast some of it? So what is your point? Why are people even trying to undermine that fact that the Raptors are well supported? Why does that bother you?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MentalPowerHouse</b>!
> 
> 
> Why are people even trying to undermine that fact that the Raptors are well supported? Why does that bother you?


well said.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

When Tmac played in Toronto, he showed flashes of greatness especially with his ability to score the basketball, but his dunks were nothing then compared to Vince Carter. VC was the slam dunk champion around that time, and no one in the NBA was even arguement worthy. Tracy left Toronto to leave VC's shadow, and that's it. If he really wanted to hear the fans cheer, he should have stuck around and learned to play with another great player. The Raptors with a healthy Vince and a Tracy, no matter who the #1 guy is, would be perennial title contenders.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> Tracy left Toronto to leave VC's shadow, and that's it.


That is such a myth. Tmac left for Orlando to go home and also to play with Grant Hill (and even possibly Duncan), who at the time was considered probably the best all-around player in the game. It also doesn't hurt that Toronto I believe has high taxes on income, whereas Florida has no state income tax ... so a 90 million dollar contract is worth a lot more in Florida than a 90 million dollar contract in Toronto.

If it was all about getting out from someone's shadow, why would he go to play with Grant Hill?


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

> Tracy left Toronto to leave VC's shadow


Wrong. AGAIN. Don't come in here posting the same false crap we keep telling you not to. How many times do you people need to be corrected?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> That is such a myth. Tmac left for Orlando to go home and also to play with Grant Hill (and even possibly Duncan), who at the time was considered probably the best all-around player in the game. It also doesn't hurt that Toronto I believe has high taxes on income, whereas Florida has no state income tax ... so a 90 million dollar contract is worth a lot more in Florida than a 90 million dollar contract in Toronto.
> ...





> Originally posted by *TheMagic*
> 
> Wrong. AGAIN. Don't come in here posting the same false crap we keep telling you not to. How many times do you people need to be corrected?


Difference between playing with Vince and Grant is the same as playing with Kidd or Shaq. In Toronto Tracy would have to defer to Vince. Grant Hill is a playmaker, he is the perfect guy for a scorer like Tmac. Two scorers like Tmac and Vince are unlikely to succeed. 

Besides, Tracy has always been Vince's little cousin. In high school, he was that and noone knew who he was until Vince came to the league and started to shine, then Tracy started to emerge as Vince's little cousin. Tracy was in the NBA a year before Vince and didn't get reckognition until VC landed.

I'm not saying I blame him for leaving, but that is at least a part the reason he left Toronto.


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## BallBiologist (Mar 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


G Hill yeah sure he is a playmaker but he is also a scorer..

BTW, Tmac was told they were trying to land T Duncan.. What is tduncan? A playmaker...


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> When Tmac played in Toronto, he showed flashes of greatness especially with his ability to score the basketball, but his dunks were nothing then compared to Vince Carter. VC was the slam dunk champion around that time, and no one in the NBA was even arguement worthy. <b>left Toronto to leave VC's shadow, and that's it.</b> If he really wanted to hear the fans cheer, he should have stuck around and learned to play with another great player. The Raptors with a healthy Vince and a Tracy, no matter who the #1 guy is, would be perennial title contenders.


Tracy left because he wanted to play professional ball in the city he grew up in. He just didn't want to leave "Vince's shadow", as Grant Hill at that time did cast a HUGE shadow himself and he was signed by Orlando BEFORE TMac was signed.

Oh, and to say that Vince is not a playmaker like Hill is not the way I see it. Vince is a playmaker and shares the ball with Jalen Rose. TMac shares the ball with any of his teammates.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>courtside</b>!
> 
> 
> G Hill yeah sure he is a playmaker but he is also a scorer..


I never thought of Grant as a scorer eventhough he has the ability to put up 30 in any given night. He is a distributor of the rock. Grant has excellent court vision. If Grant was healthy, I would have never thought Tmac would be the guy giving Grant the ball to score. It would be the other way around.



> BTW, Tmac was told they were trying to land T Duncan.. What is tduncan? A playmaker...


Well you see how that turned out. 

And BTW, do you think of Tim Duncan as a scorer? I don't. His value it greater outside of his ability to score. He is a go to guy, but wouldn't you give Tracy the ball to be the teams "scorer" instead of TD?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> 
> 
> Tracy left because he wanted to play professional ball in the city he grew up in. He just didn't want to leave "Vince's shadow", as Grant Hill at that time did cast a HUGE shadow himself and he was signed by Orlando BEFORE TMac was signed.
> ...


Hill can score and playmake. Vince can score and playmake. But I'd take Hill as a playmakers before Hill as a scorer, and I'd take Vince as a scorer before Vince as a playmaker, anyday.

Also, I don't doubt that Tmac would have emerged as the player he is today with Hill. Grant would complement his game in a way Vince never would. Had Tracy continued to play with Vince he would have to defer to him and that's not really Tmacs game. Tracy is a dominating scorer first! 

:twocents:


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> I never thought of Grant as a scorer eventhough he has the ability to put up 30 in any given night. He is a distributor of the rock. Grant has excellent court vision. If Grant was healthy, I would have never thought Tmac would be the guy giving Grant the ball to score. It would be the other way around.
> ...


Regardless of what you see Hill as, point is he was a superstar at the time he signed with Orlando and Tmac was just a decent player with potential. No way Tmac comes to Orlando expecting to be "the man" or Grant Hill coming to Orlando expecting to defer to Tmac right away. It would have more than likely happened eventually, but neither guy would have come in thinking that way.

As for Duncan, he might not be seen as a "scorer", but if you have a dominant big man of your team like that, you always play inside-out first. Regardless of how good Tmac is, Duncan would have always been the first option. Look at Kobe in LA. There are only a couple guys with his ability to score in the NBA or in the entire world and Shaq cant touch Kobe's ability to score, but where does LA's offense almost always start first? With the Diesel.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Regardless of what you see Hill as, point is he was a superstar at the time he signed with Orlando and Tmac was just a decent player with potential. No way Tmac comes to Orlando expecting to be "the man" or Grant Hill coming to Orlando expecting to defer to Tmac right away. It would have more than likely happened eventually, but neither guy would have come in thinking that way.


If you know Grant Hill's game you know that is the way it would have turned out. Grant Hill is the not the type of player that cares about defering to anyone. It's like Lebron in Cleveland. LJ has the game to go out and score 30+ any game, so did Hill, but they both "want glory for the team." Hill is a playmaker! He played that way at Duke, and in Detroit. 



> As for Duncan, he might not be seen as a "scorer", but if you have a dominant big man of your team like that, you always play inside-out first. Regardless of how good Tmac is, Duncan would have always been the first option. Look at Kobe in LA. There are only a couple guys with his ability to score in the NBA or in the entire world and Shaq cant touch Kobe's ability to score, but where does LA's offense almost always start first? With the Diesel.


I agree. But just like in LA, crunch time comes down to who is the teams best scorer and Tmac would have to be that player, just like Kobe has been.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Tmac going to Orlando had more to do with where he grew up, and them being a better team than the Raptors. 

Duncan or Hill would have helped Tracys game a lot more than Vince.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> I agree. But just like in LA, crunch time comes down to who is the teams best scorer and Tmac would have to be that player, just like Kobe has been.


Tmac has been pretty clutch this season, hes hit many big shots in numerous games. I doubt he would have a problem with that.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> Tmac going to Orlando had more to do with where he grew up, and *them being a better team than the Raptors.*


Tracy's last year with Toronto, they did make the playoffs...... Orlando did *not.*



> Tmac has been pretty clutch this season, hes hit many big shots in numerous games. I doubt he would have a problem with that.


I don't dispute that, eventhough his team did lose 19 in a row, how you call that clutch I have no idea, but the biggest question is, will he be clutch in a game of significance?


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Golden Bull 23</b>!
> The Magic are finally playing TEAM basketball and they are winning because of it. They are going to start drawing more people to their games. Do you think just maybe that Toronto has had bigger crowds lately because they wanted to see the newly aquired Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall


Sorry, the Raptors sold out all but one game in the 2001-02 season, the one with the 13-game losing streak, and have had crowds of over 18000 all season long and last year too.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Tracy's last year with Toronto, they did make the playoffs...... Orlando did *not.*
> ...


Yes, but Orlando with Tmac, a healthy Hill, and Mike Miller would have most definitely been better than the Raptors.

Tmac has been very clutch a lot this season. There isnt much he can do when he scores 15-20 pts in the 4th quarter of a game and passes the ball to a wide open teammate while being triple-teamed and the guy misses the shot. That happened more than once. Orlando didnt play well during that streak, but they were also in almost all but a few of those games late and had a lot of bad luck.

As far as Tmac leaving Toronto, you still havent said anything that proves the myth that Tmac left just to be "the man" ... it just isnt true.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> Yes, but Orlando with Tmac, a healthy Hill, and Mike Miller would have most definitely been better than the Raptors.


Most definately? That's just your opinion.
Had Tmac stayed in Toronto, the Raptors would have been a much better team than Orlando, and that's just my opinion, but here's why. Vince, Antonio Davis, Alvin Williams, Keon Clark, Jerome Williams, Oakley, Mark Jackson, Corliss Williamson, & Mo Pete... plus Tracy would have been a title contender considering Tracy would have had the break out season he did in Orlando. Don't you remember this team going to the conference semifinals just barely losing to Philly in 7 games! The same team that eventually made it to the finals. With Tmac, the Raptors would have climbed that hump. But you'd have to agree that is a better situation than going to Orlando, finishing 7th, and losing in the first round. After all, what is the most common excuse/reason a Tmac fan uses when asked about his lack of success? 
_"He doesn't have any help."_



> As far as Tmac leaving Toronto, you still havent said anything that proves the myth that Tmac left just to be "the man" ... it just isnt true.


Never said, he left to be "the man." He left because he was overshadowed by the person who was indirectly responsible for him having the label "Vince's little cousin".


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> Most definately? That's just your opinion.
> ...


So you think those guys would have been better than the combination of Tmac, Hill, and Miller on the floor? I dont think so. Had Hill come back from the injury, that would have been one of the most dynamic trios in the history of the NBA.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> So you think those guys would have been better than the combination of Tmac, Hill, and Miller on the floor?


:yes: 



> Had Hill come back from the injury, that would have been one of the most dynamic trios in the *history* of the NBA.


You can't be serious? :uhoh:


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> :yes:
> ...


I'm talking wing trios, not including bigs, as in PG, SG, and SF. I dont ever remember 3 guys, all about 6'9", who can all score, rebound, and pass like those three could have.

Your talking about two Hall of Famers (if not for Hill's injury) and a very good all-around wingman to those two.

Yeah i'm serious, prove me wrong.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> I'm talking wing trios, not including bigs, as in PG, SG, and SF. I dont ever remember 3 guys, all about 6'9", who can all score, rebound, and pass like those three could have.


MJ, Pip, Harp
Magic, Coop, Worthy
Kobe, Harp, Fox
Penny, Anderson, Scott

just to name a few.




> Your talking about two Hall of Famers (if not for Hill's injury) and a very good all-around wingman to those two.


Tmac is not a hall of famer, and he most certainly was not a HOFers when Mike Miller was in Orlando.

[/quote]Yeah i'm serious, prove me wrong. [/QUOTE]

I wouldn't waste my time proving a person wrong who hasn't proven himself right.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> MJ, Pip, Harp
> Magic, Coop, Worthy
> Kobe, Harp, Fox
> Penny, Anderson, Scott


Definitely not Penny, Anderson, and Scott. Penny at his best still wasn't as good as Hill. And no one else even comes close to Tmac. Only reason Scott looked good on that team was because he got tons of wide open threes with Shaq down low. Look how well he did once Shaq left.

Magic, Coop, and Worthy - very true
MJ, Pip, and Harp - very true, but that trio could have been close

Kobe, Harp, and Fox - nah ... Kobe and Tmac are equals. Neither Harp or Fox can hold a candle to a healthy Hill. And by the time Harp was playing with Kobe he wasn't very good anymore. And Fox was never that good.




> Tmac is not a hall of famer, and he most certainly was not a HOFers when Mike Miller was in Orlando.


Of course Tmac isn't and wasn't a Hall of Famer, but barring injury, he certainly will be. Hill would have been as well.



> I wouldn't waste my time proving a person wrong who hasn't proven himself right.


Nice and easy cop-out. Notice I said "one" of the most dynamic. I didn't say "the" ... In my years of watching basketball, I have never seen a team put a PG, SG, and SF on the floor together that were all above 6'8" and were as multi-talented as those three.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Let me first say, that I respect your opinion. Anything I say, whether tactful or not, is all in good fun so disrespect ever intended. As a sports fan, I just love to argue/debate the game. Seriously I can go all night.



> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> Definitely not Penny, Anderson, and Scott. Penny at his best still wasn't as good as Hill. And no one else even comes close to Tmac. Only reason Scott looked good on that team was because he got tons of wide open threes with Shaq down low. Look how well he did once Shaq left.


The Penny combo was a stretch. About The Tmac combo, I am skeptical that Tmac would have emerged into the player he is today having to play with two other all around players that can basically do what he does. Chemistry concern is always a possibility.



> Magic, Coop, and Worthy - very true


Really no denying these guys. They went to 9 finals in the 80's. That alone speaks measures!



> MJ, Pip, and Harp - very true, but that trio could have been close


Fans miss alot by not accounting for defense, and that's where this trio would have clearly been better than Orlando's. Not Hill, Mac, or Miller get much respect for there defensive effort. ALL three combine for 0 zero all defensive team awards, while those combine for about 18. Plus, no one measures up to MJ's offensive ability(pts, rebs, ast)



> Kobe, Harp, and Fox - nah ... Kobe and Tmac are equals. Neither Harp or Fox can hold a candle to a healthy Hill. And by the time Harp was playing with Kobe he wasn't very good anymore. And Fox was never that good.


I don't agree that Kobe and Tmac are equals. Again there is the defensive issue, and Kobe is a proven clutch performer.
Fox was a very good player in his day. He's a tough shut down defender, has an excellent shot, and is a proven leader. He's not a captain in LA for nothing. Harps best days were behind him, so I'll give the edge to the Orlando boys here, but not by much.



> Of course Tmac isn't and wasn't a Hall of Famer, but barring injury, he certainly will be. Hill would have been as well.


It's unfortunate what happened to Grant. If I had one, he'd still get my vote. And yeah, Tmac will most likely make the hall baring injury or frustration, i.e. he could "quit."



> In my years of watching basketball, I have never seen a team put a PG, SG, and SF on the floor together that were all above 6'8" and were as multi-talented as those three.


That's probably because you can't(maybe you can) name another trio of PG, SG, SF that were all above 6'8, so I guess they win by default.


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

> Kobe, Harp, Fox


Hahahaha. What a complete joke. You made your entire argument invalid with that one.



> I don't agree that Kobe and Tmac are equals


You're absolutely right. T-Mac is better.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> 
> 
> Hahahaha. What a complete joke. You made your entire argument invalid with that one.


It's even more funny cause the LA squad's got bling, and your Orlando boys got ashey knuckles! :laugh:

But seriously, the one thing about this comparision you're overlooking is... you are judging the Orlando trio on an inidividual level. These three didn't really get the chance to play together. The LA trio did, but take a look at how good each player was when they played without the others. Kobe's game is elite on both sides of the ball. Fox put up very good all around numbers before his game was overshadowed by Kobe and Shaq. And Ron Harper was a very good all around player in his day. But the one thing these 3 have that is invaluble is championship experience, Orlando has none.



> You're absolutely right. T-Mac is better.


I wonder if anyone would consider me better than the next man, if I was unsuccessful? :whoknows:


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> It's even more funny cause the LA squad's got bling, and your Orlando boys got ashey knuckles! :laugh:
> ...


Well, it is difficult to get championship experience if you don't have the players to make it to the championship game. 

I understand your chemistry argument and it is valid. There is no way to tell how players are going to work with each other. I think you have to expect that the Tmac, Hill, and Miller combo would have fit together nicely though ... all three I would consider very unselfish in their play and all three are very good passers.

As for defense, I think the trio would have held their own, certainly not MJ, Pippen, and Harper level (all three top level defenders) .. but Hill was always a good defender but never really got credit for it. Even when he has played for Orlando on an ankle at no better than 70-80%, he improved Orlando's team defense. He isnt necessarily a stopper, but he played passing lanes extremely well and was a good position defender. He was also an excellent defensive rebounder for a wing, which a lot of people take into account when talking about defense. 

Tmac is a much better defender than he gets credit for, probably overshadowed by his scoring. He does relax sometimes, but if he didnt, he might shorten his career by years since he has to do everything else on the court for Orlando. He has singlehandedly shut down a lot of good players this season.

Miller obviously is no defender. Matador.


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## The MAgiC (Aug 3, 2003)

> I wonder if anyone would consider me better than the next man, if I was unsuccessful?


Being succesful in the shadow of a 7 foot gorilla is the simplest way possible to be succesful. Being the least bit succesful on his own.... never happened.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The MAgiC</b>!
> Being succesful in the shadow of a 7 foot gorilla is the simplest way possible to be succesful. Being the least bit succesful on his own.... never happened.


This is the problem, we are not talking about Kobe Bryant we're talking about Tmac. As far as Kobe and success never happening before Shaq, he was the National High School Player of the Year, which means you are the best player in the country, which is a mark of success! And Keep in Mind Shaq has always been the dominate player he is today and then, but LA did not start to win titles until Kobe's game emerged, that's another mark of success.

As far as never being successful, and having fans who think you're better than the guy who is successful.... that is a very confusing arguement.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> Well, it is difficult to get championship experience if you don't have the players to make it to the championship game.


True. But you'd have to agree that experience does account for alot.



> I understand your chemistry argument and it is valid. There is no way to tell how players are going to work with each other. I think you have to expect that the Tmac, Hill, and Miller combo would have fit together nicely though ... all three I would consider very unselfish in their play and all three are very good passers.


Most likely. :yes:



> As for defense, I think the trio would have held their own, certainly not MJ, Pippen, and Harper level (all three top level defenders) .. but Hill was always a good defender but never really got credit for it. Even when he has played for Orlando on an ankle at no better than 70-80%, he improved Orlando's team defense. He isnt necessarily a stopper, but he played passing lanes extremely well and was a good position defender. He was also an excellent defensive rebounder for a wing, which a lot of people take into account when talking about defense.


I wish we could talk about this happening instead of what could have happened. They could have been a fine team. 



> Tmac is a much better defender than he gets credit for, probably overshadowed by his scoring. He does relax sometimes, but if he didnt, he might shorten his career by years since he has to do everything else on the court for Orlando. He has singlehandedly shut down a lot of good players this season.


That's why Tmac has never made a all league defensive team, he picks and chooses when he will play tough D. Great defenders play with intensity all the time.



> Miller obviously is no defender. Matador.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> True. But you'd have to agree that experience does account for alot.


No doubt. That is one of the main reasons this team is struggling so badly. I believe they are one of the two or three youngest teams in the league. Most people seem to dismiss that. But that is just one of the plethora of problems.




> I wish we could talk about this happening instead of what could have happened. They could have been a fine team.


Believe me, so do I. My dream scenario would have Tmac, Hill, and Duncan all healthy on Orlando playing the Finals versus Shaq, Kobe and the boys for many years straight ... that would have been good stuff.




> That's why Tmac has never made a all league defensive team, he picks and chooses when he will play tough D. Great defenders play with intensity all the time.


Well, I think Tmac could have gotten on there a couple years ago but was overlooked. His defense has gotten less and less as his scoring has needed to increase.


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