# Final Four Discussion



## croco

So who do you got?


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## Mrs. Thang

Michigan is favored by 2 and I love Syracuse in that game. Guard oriented offense has not had a lot of success against Syracuse this year, and I don't think Michigan plays the kind of defense needed to win a low scoring game.

It would be a major upset at this point of Louisville doesn't win it all. They are favored by 10 next weekend. I'll probably take the points for fun.


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## Nimreitz

Pretty foolish not to pick Louisville. They pretty much have a free pass to the final.


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## Diable

TBH I pretty much think that was the Championship game yesterday, don't see anyone in Louisville's way that looks like a legitimate threat to beat them, barring a really disappointing performance or some fluke game where the other team just hits all their three balls.


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## RollWithEm

Diable said:


> TBH I pretty much think that was the Championship game yesterday


Good point. Duke was playing well enough to beat any of the other three teams in the final four... and Louisville waxed them.


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## BlueBaron

Gotta go with Michigan and Uville.


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## Diable

Duke needed to hit shots, Sulaimon is a huge key for them. He's inconsistent as hell, but when he plays well Duke is as good as anyone. He played horribly and they needed him to play great. If he had they might have won.


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## bball2223

Michigan/Louisville final is what I'm pulling for.


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## ohiohammer

I've got Louisville. While this primarily a psychological issue, I feel the injury to Ware will give them reason to pull together and only increase their motivation to succeed.


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## croco

That's a rather inauspicious start for Louisville.


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## Nimreitz

Big deal, they're already up 3 despite being down 8-0. Runs happen in basketball.


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## croco

Some of these shots aren't even close. Hopefully they will be able to settle down at halftime, ugly game so far.


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## croco

No splash plays for Louisville today, Shockers keeping everything under wraps.


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## Nimreitz

This is why you cut down the damn regional nets and celebrate your accomplishments. Nothing is promised to you in this world. Louisville thought they were owed something.


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## croco

Dieng, Behanan, Siva and Blackshear have a combined five points. From that perspective it's a miracle that they are still in the game.


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## croco

Early is everywhere.


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## Nimreitz

I think the ref blew his whistle for a foul, but his last look saw both players with hands on the ball. That's the only reason I can imagine why he would call a jump ball that quick.


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## croco

You can't make that call. Terrible ending.

Louisville really escaped today, it never felt like they got to play their game for extended stretches and they weren't in command.


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## Rather Unique

I thought Armstead in foul trouble and riding the bench down the stretch really hurt Wichita st during louisvilles run when they couldn't buy a bucket. He gets to the rim which frees up the shooters and the offensive glass. TOUGH loss, would've loved to see em pull it off.


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## croco

Michigan needs to be a little more creative and aggressive. They aren't going to win this game attempting 40 threes.


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## croco

Never mind. SHOOT MORE THREES!


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## Rather Unique

Lol They got the shooters to do it..


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## croco

Well, yeah, but you still can't fall in love with the three when they are falling. Michigan hasn't even shot the ball particularly well in the first half, the true difference maker is the edge in rebounding.


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## Nimreitz

"Wichita St. is the best defensive team we have played in years!"

Okay, so either CBS is full of shit and Syracuse isn't a great defensive team. Or Pitino is full of shit.

Personally I think they both are.


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## croco

McGary is playing at a remarkably high level all throughout this tournament.


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## Nimreitz

Even Phil Jackson is like "FINALLY someone getting it to the high post against Cuse." This shit isn't that hard. I mean... it is hard, but most teams don't even try.


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## croco

Good grief, Michigan. You were up by 6-8 points, not 20. Can't pass up layups.


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## Nimreitz

#1 Offense vs. #1 Defense


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## FSH

That was pain full to watch. Why the hell would a guy that barely plays take the last shot when you got Southerland and CJ Fair on the court? Cooney a guy that can penetrate to save his life...Seriously what the **** was that

CJ Fair didnt even touch the ball when Syracuse was trying to take the lead. I dont know what the hell that was


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## Geaux Tigers

Awful call and one of the most glaring reasons against the possession arrow in college basketball. Let the players involved decide and jump it up at least, however this one wasn't even a correct call!


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## Geaux Tigers

Nimreitz said:


> Even Phil Jackson is like "FINALLY someone getting it to the high post against Cuse." This shit isn't that hard. I mean... it is hard, but most teams don't even try.


Only two ways to bust up a zone...work it to the middle or shoot lights out from three. Same strategy since time began. John Brady back in the day for LSU used to have his players pass the ball around the arc until about 6 seconds left in the shot clock and then let an undersized PG do something stupid...eh worked in 05.


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## FSH

I still cant believe Cooney took the finally shot. My whole life as a Syracuse fan and that was one of the worse calls ive ever seen Boeheim make. Not gonna take away anything from this season because it was a great season after the crap end to the season they had. But that was terrible


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## Nimreitz

Geaux Tigers said:


> Only two ways to bust up a zone...work it to the middle or shoot lights out from three. Same strategy since time began. John Brady back in the day for LSU used to have his players pass the ball around the arc until about 6 seconds left in the shot clock and then let an undersized PG do something stupid...eh worked in 05.


The common wisdom is "GOTTA SHOOT OVER IT!"

****. No. You exploit the big hole in the middle of the 2-3. You either get wide open 15 footers, or you get the zone to break down as it collapses inward.

The press isn't any more difficult, in fact a good team should have a 2-on-1 every possession against a full court press.


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## croco

> Cleanthony Early is just the fourth player to score 20 points and grab 10 rebounds in a semifinal game against Louisville, joining some of the most legendary players in basketball history.
> 
> 2013 Cleanthony Early Wichita State
> 1983 Akeem Olajuwon* Houston
> 1972 Bill Walton* UCLA
> 1959 Jerry West* West Virginia
> * Won game
> 
> http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=330960097


Completely random, but pretty elite company nonetheless.


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## HKF

Michigan is going to win the title IMO. They are probably going to blow Louisville out. They're talent is really strong.


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## Mrs. Thang

Michigan doesn't turn the ball over much and shredded VCU's pressure a couple weeks ago. Will be interesting to see how Louiseville handles that considering they can't really afford back court foul trouble without Ware.

Louiseville is a much tougher team up front though and I have to imagine that will win out. You can beat Michigan up inside. They don't have any shot blocking or much rebounding. Louiseville has Dieng and an endless reserve of bruising 4's.


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## bball2223

McGary is going to kill them on the boards. This isn't the same Michigan team from even 3 weeks ago. Louisville is good, but with McGarys emergence, UM is a bad matchup for them. If Burke avoids dumb turnovers and McGary stays out of foul trouble Michigan is going to win this.


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## JuniorNoboa

FSH said:


> I still cant believe Cooney took the finally shot. My whole life as a Syracuse fan and that was one of the worse calls ive ever seen Boeheim make. Not gonna take away anything from this season because it was a great season after the crap end to the season they had. But that was terrible


Cooney has not had to play the point guard the entire season, and in the last possession of the year he was forced to play because MCW and Triche fouled out. It was a tough situation for the kid.

Personally I believe Boeheim told him to penetrate and kick or take the easy 2 if you could take it quickly. A solid plan with an experienced guard but not with someone so inexperienced as Cooney. He became trapped, and had to shoot.

Either way Syracuse with only Cooney at the point was going to be hard pressed to get a quality shot. I think they should have run something for an NBA type three with Southerland or Fair. It was probably going to be as close as you were going to get to a decent look.


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## JuniorNoboa

Nimreitz said:


> The common wisdom is "GOTTA SHOOT OVER IT!"
> 
> ****. No. You exploit the big hole in the middle of the 2-3. You either get wide open 15 footers, or you get the zone to break down as it collapses inward.
> 
> The press isn't any more difficult, in fact a good team should have a 2-on-1 every possession against a full court press.


It depends, the big hole in the middle is the way it is most commonly beat (Georgetown, Pitt, Michigan) , but there are many teams which Syracuse encourages it and attacks. This is the area Syracuse creates its most turnovers, and as there offence sucks it needs it to score points. Some teams can attack some teams dont'

Take Indiana for example. They had no issues getting to the spot - Syracuse let Yogi Farrell penetrate sometimes or made it very difficult for him to pass it in, and had no issue letting Cody Zeller getting the ball, and sliding over to defend him with two men at the basket. Tehy created many turnovers.

The whole point of the zone from Syracuse perspective is to get the ball in people's hands that you don't want it to -- many team has been killed by trying to get it to "big spot" . Sometimes it work - sometimes it doesn't. Its a difficult strategy against a team so talented as Michigan (you cant swarm the middle against so many weapons), or a player like Otto Porter, or a team like Georgetown which has strong passing bigs (like Lubick). Jamie Dixon has his team well trained in making quick passes

Against Marquette - its incorrect to state that Marquette stopped getting it to Gardner. Its Syracuse that made the adjustment. Syracuse tightened up the two guards making the passing lanes to Gardner difficult. They also tweaked the wing man to work more inside rather than inside and moved the centre up. so Gardner's space was very limited on the catch. If they tried to go Gardner more it would have resulted in many turnovers because of the increased swarm factor (passes would have need to be boubced as well). The strategy was fine because Marquette could not shoot threes to reduce the swarm and move arms out of the way.

Doesn't work so well against Michigan -- too much talent. But at the end of the day I don't think it was Michigan "beating" the zone that won it for them. They attacked it OK. but in the vaunted matchup of the best offence in the land vs highly ranked 2-3, no one really won.

But Michigan did the following (1 and 2 are somewhat related to the zone and the fact that Michigan is talented):

1) Took advantage of the inherent limitation of the 2-3, especially against a team with many strong offensive weapons -- Offensive rebounding. And given there offesnive skills the Syracuse zone had to move so much, creating space inside for Michigan.

2) Syracuse could not create many turnovers - Syracuse was afraid to swarm the middle. Syracuse is a bad half court team and if can't create turnovers or get easy rebounds your going to sting their offence.

3) Everyone focused on Michigan Offence vs Syracuse Defence. But nobody paid any attention to fairly big weaknesses for either team - Michigan D vs Syracuse Off. And for the most part Syracuse sucked in the half court -- as usual. 

Congrats to Michigan on the victory. The team that seemed in control of the game, won the game. The team that seemed better won the game. 

I hated the Triche charge call at the end (it was clearly a block), but I suspect Michigan would have still pulled it out in fina possession or OT. I would just have preferred if the season did not end with such a doubt.


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## JuniorNoboa

I think the final could go either way. Michigan D has to stay focused -- its a major weakness, but for a big game maybe it will drive them. So much talent on offence. 

Syracuse beat Louisville at Louisville, they had a tight loss at the Done, were beating them at MSG by about 17 with about 14 minutes left (they were then crushed as I have never seen). It was somewhat similar to what Louisville did to Wichita St. I think Burke and Beilein have the composure to withstand the second half push, if they have a nice lead with 10-15 minutes to go.


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## JuniorNoboa

Geaux Tigers said:


> Only two ways to bust up a zone...work it to the middle or shoot lights out from three. Same strategy since time began. John Brady back in the day for LSU used to have his players pass the ball around the arc until about 6 seconds left in the shot clock and then let an undersized PG do something stupid...eh worked in 05.


As I said before, working it to the middle can often be to your detriment against a longer and more athletic zone like Syracuse. You have to have the right players and supporting cast to do it effectively. 

they will close the passing lanes, move up and swarm. If you are not "smart" or do not have the right personnel to get it to the mddile, you will shoot yourself in foot by allowing Syracuse to create turnovers all day long and score easy baskets. Syracuse will encourage teams to put it to the middle in certain games.





Michigan was too talented. But its too talented for any type of defence really. There is a reason they were the #1 offence in the country,
,


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## JuniorNoboa

Diable said:


> TBH I pretty much think that was the Championship game yesterday, don't see anyone in Louisville's way that looks like a legitimate threat to beat them, barring a really disappointing performance or some fluke game where the other team just hits all their three balls.


Come on now. That statement is totally absurd.

This isn't 1996 Kentucky vs 1996 UMass, who were clear and away the two best teams in the country. Syracuse benefitted from avoiding them in the national semi's.

In this year of parity there is no clear 2 dominant teams. Louisville could at least make a mild argument, but Stating Duke is just silly.

Syracuse was in the final four -- they beat Louisville on the road, nearly beat them at home, and had them by 17 at one point at MSG (before an epic meltdown). They had a decent shot against Louisville.

Wichita St nearly beat Louisville in the final four.

And Michigan is the best offensive team in the country and perhaps the most talented. These type of teams seem to tighten up on D come tourney time. this is no easy matchup for Louisville.

No surpirse -- many good posts in tbis thread from respectable posters like HKF and Nimreitz... and one silly post from Diable.


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## Diable

Duke is better than those teams. Syracuse there's no doubt, that is not even close. Michigan beating Syracuse proves almost nothing.


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## Nimreitz

I still think Louisville is the team to beat. Dieng is a better player than McGary. The one thing that is potentially concerning is that Louisville hasn't been winning games with defense lately, they've just been really good offensively. If they can't get stops against Michigan they could be in some serious trouble because Siva and Russ aren't actually good shooters.


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## croco

Let's not forget that Michigan was ranked #1 in the country two months ago. This isn't some random team coming from out of nowhere.


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## croco

Wow, Chris Webber is in the building.


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## Nimreitz

croco said:


> Wow, Chris Webber is in the building.


This is a great moment. Hope they show him next to Jalen and the rest of the Fab 5 joking around.


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## croco

Michigan is not only making shots, they are getting quality shots almost every time so far.


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## Nimreitz

Yeah, you need to frustrate Michigan. No team in the country can score with them and Louisville is not an exception.


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## croco

Albrecht is quickly climbing up the ladder of the most unexpected great performances in championship game history. Unbelievable shooting display.


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## Mrs. Thang

Dieng eats zone defense for breakfast.


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## Mrs. Thang

This whole tournament run has been crazy for Michigan. This team looked so soft just a month ago, I didn't think they would get out of the first weekend. I guess the remedy for that is just to have every shot go in no matter where you shoot it from.


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## croco

This is unreal.


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## Mrs. Thang

You don't have to be good on defense if you can just foul under the basket on every play.


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## Mrs. Thang

Albrecht is on pace to surpass his entire regular season point total tonight.


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## Nimreitz

This is a ridiculous performance. Fab 5 actually had a white guard who showed up big in the 93 title game too. Don't remember his name.


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## JuniorNoboa

Nimreitz said:


> This is a ridiculous performance. Fab 5 actually had a white guard who showed up big in the 93 title game too. Don't remember his name.


Rob Pelinka I believe. Current big time NBA agent.


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## Mrs. Thang

Louisville has to stop pressing. It's killing their defense. Michigan did the same thing to VCU.


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## JuniorNoboa

Burke needs to come back for final 2 minutes.


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## Mrs. Thang

This game is all about white guys who don't have any feelings.


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## croco

How is this a one-point game? Felt like Michigan dominated the entire half except the last two minutes.


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## croco

Edit: Post didn't show up.


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## Diable

Louisville pulled their chestnuts out of the fire there. Damn they played like crap 80% of the half and still come out even


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## Mrs. Thang

That run Luke Hancock went on is so huge. I still think Louisville is a much better team but it looked like they were going to spend the entire game trying to crawl out from under that 3 point barrage. They have huge advantages in the half court on both ends of the floor so long as their freneticism doesn't cause them to lose shooters.


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## Nimreitz

croco said:


> How is this a one-point game? Felt like Michigan dominated the entire half except the last two minutes.


Albrecht started playing like Albrecht. Lotta turnovers and poor decisions during those final 3 minutes. As someone in here suggested, they needed to bring Trey Burke back to close out the half.


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## Nimreitz

OMG RUSS SMITH ON THE BENCH FOR 88 SECONDS!

"HAVE YOU EVER SEEN SOMETHING LIKE THAT!" complains Clark Kellogg.

He's been shit. You don't reward playing like shit with playing time; it's the only thing a coach has.


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## Nimreitz

Albrecht is doing more harm than good now. No reason for him to be on the court instead of a better player. Michigan has other shooters who can stretch the floor that can do other stuff.


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## croco

Time for Burke to take over.


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## Mrs. Thang

Michigan can't guard anything in the paint without McGary gooning. Big foul.


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## Nimreitz

Well, took Kerr about 10 extra minutes to see the truth about Albrecht, but at least he realizes it. Kellogg is such a dope; shouldn't even be in the booth.

P.S. that turnover is Albrecht's fault. Siva has just been abusing him.


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## e-monk

why are you guys wasting key strokes complaining about the coverage - mute button - this is a great game


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## Nimreitz

College refs are the worst. Anticipating the foul, meh just blow anyway.


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## croco

What a horrible, horrible call.


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## Basel

This game is getting away from Michigan. That blown call certainly didn't help.


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## Nimreitz

Beilein lost this game by keeping Albrecht in.


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## e-monk

Nimreitz said:


> This is a great moment. Hope they show him next to Jalen and the rest of the Fab 5 joking around.


by pretending to call time outs?


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## e-monk

didnt realize Dieng was that fluid


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## croco

Nimreitz said:


> Beilein lost this game by keeping Albrecht in.


Agreed, he kept him in too long. As much good as he did early on, it almost evened out with plenty of bad decisions afterwards.


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## e-monk

smith didnt need to take that shot


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## croco

Michigan is getting owned on the glass in this half.


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## Mrs. Thang

Russ Smith with the worst shot I have ever seen.


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## Basel

Awful rebounding performance by Michigan. Unreal.


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## e-monk

Behanen is killing them


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## Mrs. Thang

Just take Russ Smith out. The guy is an unbelievably horrible situational player.


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## e-monk

wow no call on behanen


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## e-monk

what is Michigan doing?


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## Pacers Fan

Russ Smith is so bad. It's like he was trying to lose the game for Louisville.


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## croco

Tough loss for Michigan. Really, I think that stretch at the end of the first half was crucial, completely turned the momentum and Louisville was tougher on the glass in the second half and outgrinded Michigan.


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## Diable

Russ Smith looked like he was trying to make some NBA money tonight...pretty much showed why you might wanna be wary of drafting him though. Of course in the NBA it's going to be a lot easier to bench his ass if he wants to play Lone Ranger.


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## Nimreitz

Albrecht played 28 minutes tonight after averaging 7.6 on the year. Should have got yanked at 7.6. That's the game, yall.


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## Nimreitz




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## Nimreitz

Forgot about Beilein's other big boner. Does anyone remember that horrible halftime speech?


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## croco

Pitino should get a tattoo of Russ Smith.


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## Mrs. Thang

Either it was going to be Albrecht shooting threes and not guarding anybody or Stauskas shooting threes and not guarding anybody. They didn't lose the game because Burke sat on the bench while Hancock hit a bunch of threes. Albrecht was the only reason they had a lead to lose.


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## Nimreitz

And he did his job and he needed to sit down when Burke was ready to go. There's bad defense and there's BAD DEFENSE. Stauskas is the former, Albrecht was the latter. If Stauskas means that Michigan got ONE more stop, it could have swung the game. And oh yeah, maybe he hits a shot too; Albrecht didn't score a point in the second half. There's a reason why Albrecht sits on the end of the bench and Stauskas starts; Beilein forgot that. I actually had my final high school game ruined by a similar coaching mistake not that anyone cares. It sucks.


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## croco

Yeah, I think it's fair to say that coaching probably swung the game in Louisville's favor.


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## Mrs. Thang

Albrecht's previous season high in minutes came against VCU. I think his minutes were game planned to get a third ball handler on the floor against pressure. He obviously got way more than was planned for in the first half because he was playing well, but I bet he would have played 15-20 minutes even without that stretch. Not saying he's good or not a liability, but they've gone to him and Hardaway before to prevent Burke from having to do it all.

Coaching was clearly an advantage for Louisville, but so was talent. They were just much tougher and deeper. Michigan is a good times team that looks great when it is drilling 25 foot threes but would fold against physical play. They went on an unbelievable run shooting the ball to get this far though. Not sure we will see anything like that anytime soon.


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## Nimreitz

Louisville wasn't really pressing that much. But yes I agree Louisville was the better team both on the night and in general.


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## e-monk

also Cardinals were a much more poiseed veteran team - I see complaints about coaching but no specific comments on WTF was Michigan doing in the last minute and a half?


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## Nimreitz

Mark Titus



> 8. Spike Albrecht killed Michigan in the second half.
> 
> What Spike giveth, Spike taketh away (or, if we're talking about possession of the basketball, maybe that should be "giveth away"). As great as Albrecht was in the first half, he helped submarine Michigan's title chances in the second half. Because of his incredible shooting display, coach John Beilein chose to ride Albrecht's hot hand to the end, even though his hot hand cooled off during halftime. During the second half, the irrational confidence that had allowed Albrecht to drain challenged 3s was now allowing him to take stupid shots and make careless turnovers. To make matters worse, because Beilein was crossing his fingers that Albrecht could replicate his first-half performance, Nik Stauskas remained on the bench for most of the second half.
> 
> Don't get me wrong — I would never suggest that Albrecht is the reason Michigan lost. He went above and beyond the call of duty and deserves all the Twitter followers, Facebook messages, autograph requests, groupies, and whatever other accolades accompany his performance in Monday's first half. I'm just saying that his great first half came with a price, and it put Beilein in a bind. The could would never say so publicly, but knowing what he knows now, there's no way Beilein wouldn't have played Stauskas more and kept Albrecht on the bench for most of the second half.


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## croco

Nimreitz said:


>


This still cracks me up. I think I have watched the video clip about 20 times today.


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## 29380




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## Nimreitz

That's pretty legit right there. I was expecting something small on his ankle!


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