# Trevor Ariza a.k.a The Gift



## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

DUNKAGE


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## Charlotte_______ (May 18, 2003)

Who was that over? Benga?


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## NYKBaller (Oct 29, 2003)

YES


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

I've been pretty quiet on the topic of Trevor Ariza but the more I watch this kid play the more I'm convinced that he was a real steal. Sure he doesn't really have a jumpshot yet you can learn to shoot a J but you sure as hell can't learn a 45 inch vertical. He seems to be a very good ballhandler for his size and can rebound very well. Seems to be able to rack up the assists as well so the Knicks have gotten themselves a nice little package in him.


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## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

at least i can say the wolves didnt pass up on him!


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Sure he doesn't really have a jumpshot yet you can learn to shoot a J but you sure as hell can't learn a 45 inch vertical


They said the same thing about Darius Miles, and every other athletic swingman to enter the draft early. How many of those guys actually learned to shoot?


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

You make Miles sound like a bust. Didn't he earn himself time over 20/10 all-star SAR?


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## gdog (Aug 24, 2003)

> How many of those guys actually learned to shoot?


MJ, Kobe, TMac, LeBron to name a quick few. But he has to prove that he can, he has promise but people have to wait unitl he actually realizes it, if he ever does.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*not a great reply*

All of those guys could shoot quite well...except 'Bron...and he still can't, my friend. That was a really dumb reply.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> They said the same thing about Darius Miles, and every other athletic swingman to enter the draft early. How many of those guys actually learned to shoot?


i honestly have to question your sanity as well as your basketball IQ.....

You like Shandone,you like Eisly and you refuse to admit Ariza was a great pickup..

you find every excuse to knock Zekes best move so far..


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Hey, all I'm saying is, if shooting is such an easy skill to learn, then how come all 8 year NBA vets aren't shooting masters?

Of all the players on the Knicks, how many significantly improved their shooting touch since beginning their career? Maybe Kurt Thomas? His range only extends to about 18 feet.

Stacey Augmon's biggest weakness was his shooting. Fast forward 15 years. Augmon's biggest weakness is still his shooting.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> You like Shandone,you like Eisly and you refuse to admit Ariza was a great pickup..
> 
> you find every excuse to knock Zekes best move so far..


The difference between me and you, is you make Shandon/Eisley out to be the devil, and Ariza (who isn't better than either) out to be a godsend.

You're comparing Ariza/Lampe to Jordan/Bowie for christ's sake. Do I need any more fuel than that on why I say he's overhyped?

What's next, a McGrady/Foyle comparison?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> You're comparing Ariza/Lampe to Jordan/Bowie for christ's sake


Rashidi,dont play like you are a complete basketball idiot..I said you needed to be consistent..You praise Lampe,who just happens to be a LAYDUMB pick but you bash Ariza..

And your defend your ridiculous statement by saying lampe is BIG,and at 19 he is a better shooter than Ariza will ever be,that Ariza is undersized as the 3,that Lampe has an extra year of pro experience and that the knicks need guys who weigh 275..And dont make me quote you..

My counter was Sam Bowie was big,does that mean he was a better pick that Jordan??Big does not mean better as you are implying..I am not saying Ariza is the next Jordan,I am saying being 275 does not you good(Oliver Miller),and your comment of Lampe being a second year pro is kind of silly.I do agree that the Knicks need a big man who is a stopper in the middle,but in NO way is LAMPE that....

You also state that Ariza is undersized(at 19) at the 3,which is crazy..He is 6'8" and 200,which is bigger than Spree.And he rebounds very well,in fact better than Tim Thomas and in pre season better tham the 7 foot,275 Lampe...

Your bias against anything Zeke does relative to layden is out of control.



> The difference between me and you, is you make Shandon/Eisley out to be the devil, and Ariza (who isn't better than either) out to be a godsend


They arent the Devil,The man who brought them here,LayDUMB was.Neither of thyem are worth more than the NBA minimum,especially ShanDONE,as Isiah is finding out...



> Anderson has been virtually untradeable since former Knicks president Scott Layden paid him $42 million over six years to make the numbers work in the 2001 trade that sent Glen Rice to Houston. Rice had been overpaid the previous year when Layden acquired him as part of the deal that sent Patrick Ewing to Seattle.





> Those chickens have come home to roost, and Thomas has inherited them. Several teams are waiting to see if they can dump salary to the Knicks if Thomas is in a hurry to get rid of Anderson, whose value will go up when he enters the final season of his deal two years from now.


Rashidi,if you think Shandone and Eisly are better than Ariza,you can coach the ALL Buyout team..It would be fitting.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> And your defend your ridiculous statement by saying lampe is BIG,and at 19 he is a better shooter than Ariza will ever be,that Ariza is undersized as the 3,that Lampe has an extra year of pro experience and that the knicks need guys who weigh 275..And dont make me quote you..


And these are all pretty valid reasons. You're talking like a talented big man isn't worth more than swingman (much less one who can't shoot). I'll take Dirk Nowitzki over Reggie Miller, Glen Rice, or Allan Houston (in their primes) any day of the week.



> I am saying being 275 does not you good(Oliver Miller),


The Big O weight a lot more than 275 when he came into the league, and it should be fairly obvious that Lampe has a lot more skills at 19 than Miller had at any point in his career.



> does that mean he was a better pick that Jordan??Big does not mean better as you are implying..


Comparing the greatest SG of all-time to a center who might be on the top 100 list (of centers) is not a good analogy.

If you're going to make some sort of point about size, then ask yourself this.

Is Jordan better than Shaq?
Is Kobe better than Shaq?
Is McGrady better than Shaq?
Is Drexler better than Shaq?



> He is 6'8" and 200,which is bigger than Spree


DerMarr Johnson is bigger than Spree too. Spree wasn't exactly a SF either.



> in fact better than Tim Thomas


That's because TT plays 4 inches shorter, most players taller than 6'6 are better rebounders than him.



> They arent the Devil,The man who brought them here,LayDUMB was.Neither of thyem are worth more than the NBA minimum,especially ShanDONE,as Isiah is finding out...


Insert Glen Rice reference here. Layden didn't give them their contracts, and he brought them in to replace a broken player. Both Anderson and Eisley have given more for their money than Rice has. Apparantly being ready to play every day and getting paid a lot is a punishable offense, but if you're injured and making big money, nobody cares. Anderson/Eisley so far have done a lot more on the court since signing those contracts than Grant Hill has.

And would you stop flip flopping over the money? You're the one saying I don't know anything about the cap structure, and then you go penny pinching and bring up how Shandon "doesn't deserve the minimum". Make up your mind already. They were not the only role players from Finals teams to get overpaid (for reference see Steve Kerr, Derek Fisher, Devean George, Jason Caffey, Luc Longley, Jud Buechler, etc). Those players also got their money at a time when the MLE was just invented (after the lockout), and prior to the luxury tax if I'm not mistaken. Considering what Brian Cardinal and Erick Dampier got this year, it's not like teams are learning from the past. They are repeating it, and I doubt it is the fault of the GMs. It is more the cap structure of the league, and the bloodthirsty agents.



> Rashidi,if you think Shandone and Eisly are better than Ariza,you can coach the ALL Buyout team..It would be fitting.


Considering you went ballistic when I said Ward and Eisley are better than Frank Williams, I wouldn't expect you to "get it". Ariza might be better in 5 years when he is 24 and the other 2 are in their late 30s, but right now, Anderson and Eisley are the better players. He's shooting 36% from the field on mostly dunks/layups, has a negative T/O ratio, and the best you can come up with is what a great preseason rebounder he is (and on another note, did it ever occur to you that maybe he grabs more offensive rebounds because he's useless far away from the basket, while TT is not?). Darius Miles showed a lot more when he came into the league, and how much has Miles improved since then?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> You're talking like a talented big man isn't worth more than swingman


I fully agree with you 100%..But all I am saying is if you think Lampe is a great pick,then the same credit has to go to Ariza..I dont think Lampe has gotten 9 rebounds once this preseason..I just think you need to be consistent as you judged Ariza from day one without ever seeing him play

Lampe is ALL potential..He has done nothing so far,and is nowhere near the defensive player Ariza is,just like Lampe is a much better shooter than Ariza.

Rashidi,you should be asking yourself the very questios you ask me.You put down #1 .. Lampe is BIG,not me..What does big mean,if you are soft,slow of foot and raw???
You are arguing with yourself.Just to say someone is big does bot lend ant credibility to your argument..

You have clearly NEVER seen Ariza play,otherwise you wouldnt compare him to DJ..He is a strong rebounder and very good defensive ballplayer....Are we back to Blind scouts again??

Clearly you arent a business man.It is irrelavant if you were the person to first OVERPAY someone.All that matters is that Laydumb traded for 2 severly overpriced assets..

Are you saying that the only trade for G Rice was Eisly/Anderson???A gun was put to Laydumbs head??That is the DUMBEST thing in the world..Laydumb made a horrific trade..The whole world knows it,both guys are likey to be bought out,but you support it..

As you are the conspiracy theorist,how do you know Laydumb didnt purposely make that horrible trade to help his old team out.Just like Zeke plotted Shandones benching:no: 

Rashidi,read what I wrote...I said they arent worth MORE than the NBA minimum..is that my opinion??No..Its a fact if one believes what the papers print.Why do you think Shandone insists on getting bough out at FULL contract value and is willing to sit for 3 years?? Because NOBODY is offering more than the MINIMUM for him...His only value will be his expiring contract one year from now..

If Shandone is better than Ariza,why is he stuck on the bench..Because he was HORRIBLE in the playoffs??Because he is sooo bad that NOBODY will pay him more than the minimum..Rashidi,face the facts,even Shandone said Ariza is a talent..

I am done with this conversation..You support Layden,Eisly and Shandone...Too bad all 3 will be out of the league before Ariza turns 23


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> ..He has done nothing so far,and is nowhere near the defensive player Ariza is


And Ariza has done something?



> Too bad all 3 will be out of the league before Ariza turns 23


I think I'll hold you to this. Anderson will be 34, and Eisley will be 35. I'll bet both are in the league until at least 36. If Doug Overton can play until he's 34, then there's no reason both (who are about 3 times better) shouldn't last longer (especially since both players are durable).

Other than the fact that they're overpaid, what exactly do you hold against them? They helped the Knicks more than Rice did. They played hard when they were on the team. Other than their contracts (which you allege don't matter on a capped out team like this), what's the big deal?



> All that matters is that Laydumb traded for 2 severly overpriced assets..


How many trades nowadays don't involve overpriced assets? Shandon Anderson at 7 million isn't that much worse than Jalen Rose or Antonio Davis at 12 million? Don't forget that *the Knicks traded overpriced assets to get them.*



> I said they arent worth MORE than the NBA minimum


There's a difference between the NBA minimum and the veteran's minimum. Is Ariza worth the veteran's minimum?



> Rashidi,face the facts,even Shandone said Ariza is a talent..


Yes, because if he called one of his teammates a scrub, that would have endeared him to the clubhouse. In fact, according to Zeke (and you, apparantly, in previous posts), this show of professionalism is a full 180 degree turn in the way Anderson goes about things.



> Why do you think Shandone insists on getting bough out at FULL contract value and is willing to sit for 3 years?


Probably for *the same reason MUTOMBO did it*? He's getting all 17 million he was owed from the Nets.



> If Shandone is better than Ariza,why is he stuck on the bench.


Why don't you ask the GM?
I'd tell you to ask the coach, but you wouldn't get an honest answer (not that you'd get one from the GM either, but you get the point. Maybe. Unlikely.)


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

By the way, since pre-season stats clearly matter, I might as well say this now.

Trevor Ariza >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben Gordon.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Trevor Ariza >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben Gordon.


its a start

did you watch the game last night?


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*He fooled me in summer league...*

I didn't think he would be this good. If he learns to shoot, the sky is the limit. If he becomes a very good shooter he can be a legitimate superstar. Face it, Rashidi, the guy boards like a PF plays d like Tmac did at that age, has pretty good court awareness (remarkable given his age), plays hard all the time, and doesn't take bad shots. He is an up and comer.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*By the way, Truth...*

your boy played very well last night. If he played that hard all the time, I'd be his greatest fan. He really is unguardable when he means it. Such a waste......sigh


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Rashidi, take a lesson from alphadog. He admits when he's mistaken. And come the playoffs he's gonna change his handle to TT'sDawg...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> He really is unguardable when he means it


Alfa,do you think its TT or do you think its partially Lennys game plan???Kirelenko is a very good defensive ballplayer and TT ate him up alive...I can not figure that guy out..

BTW,for a small foward,he is huge....hes gotta be close to 250...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> If he learns to shoot, the sky is the limit


Alfa,you are dead on....if he ever gets a jump shot he will be unstoppable...He is an incredible rebounder,great instincts and is a super run jump athlete..And he is only 19 and 200 pounds soaking wet...

Where I think Rashidis argument fails, is that Ariza is so sound fundamentally and really never forces things...I really think he has superstar potential if he works hard

Great great pick by Zeke....


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Alfa,you are dead on....if he ever gets a jump shot he will be unstoppable...


Ditto for Dorrell Wright.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Ditto for Dorrell Wright.


as soon as he makes his FIRST NBA field goal,we can talk about him...


but until then its our very own Trevor Ariza...


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## NYKFan123 (Sep 26, 2004)

I like Ariza a lot but he needs to stop playing 100 mph everytime down the court.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Always gonna be alphadog, Truth...*

I never said TT wasn't talented. He is a monster talent. I have always said his effort is inconsistent and soft. He has had great games before but always throws in a number of brutally soft/inefficient games after. If he truly plays klike he is capable of night after night, the Knicks become imediate contenders(provided they play d like the 2nd half of the Jazz game), despite the glaring hole in the middle. Then the controversy will start...Trevor or TT? I still like Wally to play with H2O and get in to the 2/3 mix. TT and H2O and Wally (any 2 at the same time) would open up the court for Sweetney and Nazr down low and provide lanes for Steph or Crawford to drive. The trick would be finding time for 6 guys at 3 positions. I also like Penny so maybe TT could play some minutes at the 4? Not too many ...maybe 5 or 6 a game. If H2O never comes back and plays effectively, and given Penny's age and medical history, I think WS would be a great pick up. Probably very crowded for a year but it would clear up. What a great problem to have.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Forget about wally..have you seen what havoc Spree is wreaking over there??Read my post under the all buyout team..Also H20 will be out for the first month,maybe more...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> The difference between me and you, is you make Shandon/Eisley out to be the devil, and Ariza (who isn't better than either) out to be a godsend


Ummmm,rashidi,are you sure about that??

Your boy,Howard Eisly was just beaten out of a spot by the first japanese player in America who happens to stand 5'9"...

And yes,Howie was officially waived.....

And yes,he will probably go back to laydeland..Utah..for the Vet minimum..

that my friend is layden greatest trade ever...He helps Utah by taking Shandone and eisly off the books,and now utah gets 1/2 of the dynamic duo back for the minimum..laydens fingerprints are all over this:yes:


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

"The Gift" is a hot nickname...

I love Ariza's game, how my Clippers could let him go by so we could take Lionel "NDBL" Chalmers was pure stupidity.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Alpha, do you feel like I do that the coach can have a great effect on TT's effectiveness by asserting to the team he gets so many touches a game, puts up so many shots a game, gets go-to plays called for him during timeouts etc,?

TT's is not a streaky game, his effort is, but my feeling is he needs to be trained and developed like a habit. Like any muscle you develop it thru repetitions. TT needs to be worked, and the team needs to be reminded to feature him during pre-game preparations, time-outs, halftimes, etc. Give Tim a year of being a featured productive player and it should become a habit that sticks. And he always turns it up a notch in post season.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Not sure ..*

When he was younger, maybe. If I am not mistaken, he has an expiring contract, yes? If true, look for him to have a great year but be very leary. I read a post on another board from the friend of the brother of his ex-girlfriend (yeah, I know) that to him, ball was just a job and that he didn't really love it the way a lot of guys do. It might be true ...that is how he plays. I think a coach can't control the way a guy plays unless he has something to hold over the guy..such as pt. If the guy is just collecting a check, the coach can't do much...unless the guy gets embarrassed by lack of burn.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Your boy,Howard Eisly was just beaten out of a spot by the first japanese player in America who happens to stand 5'9"...


I would hardly call it beaten.



> that my friend is layden greatest trade ever...He helps Utah by taking Shandone and eisly off the books,and now utah gets 1/2 of the dynamic duo back for the minimum..laydens fingerprints are all over this


Houston gave Shandon money, not Utah.
Dallas gave Eisley money, not Utah.



> I love Ariza's game, how my Clippers could let him go by so we could take Lionel "NDBL" Chalmers was pure stupidity.


You already have Maggette and Simmons though. Clippers definitely need a PG, even if it's just a second round stop gap. Their only other options are a combo guard with non-developing point skills (Jaric), an 18 year old who is bigger but half as talented as Sebastian Telfair (Livingston), and the greatest 12th man of all-time, Rick Brunson. Given Ariza is from UCLA it wouldn't have been a stretch, but he wouldn't have gotten any PT and wouldn't solve the PG problem.



> as soon as he makes his FIRST NBA field goal


Ariza averages 20 more exhibition minutes per game. I also didn't realize that exhibition field goals count as NBA field goals.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Alpha, do you feel like I do that the coach can have a great effect on TT's effectiveness by asserting to the team he gets so many touches a game, puts up so many shots a game, gets go-to plays called for him during timeouts etc,?


Oak,thats what i was wondering when i asked if Alfa thought it was TT or Lenny...What is apparent is Marbury learned a valuable lesson this Olympics..He clearly looks to distribute first and shoot second..It very noticable...

In a way,I look to marbury to set TT up..The guy needs to put up 15 to 20 shots per game..At 6'10" 240+ with his skills,he should be nearly impossible to defend..

The one thing that bugs me is TT is the biggest starter on the knicks and he rebounds like hes 6'3"...Hes as big or bigger than naz and KT and alot taller than Sweets


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Howard Eisley's contract buyout cleared up some roster issues, making it appear more certain that point guard Yuta Tabuse will become the first Japanese player on an NBA team when rosters are set Monday.
> 
> "This is sad for me because he's a good person and player," Tabuse said. "He's a better point guard because he has experience. I learned every day from him. Now, I have to focus on myself. I need to play hard."
> 
> ...


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

By the way, bought out for 13 million... isn't that what Penny is making this season alone?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> its a start


I take it you missed the sarcasm. Let's see if you can catch it this time.



> By the way, since pre-season stats clearly matter, I might as well say this now.
> 
> Trevor Ariza >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ben Gordon.





> You make Miles sound like a bust. Didn't he earn himself time over 20/10 all-star SAR?


SAR is a PF, not a SF.

And Miles IS a bust. Let me know when he's worth his 3rd choice selection, he has barely improved since his rookie year. Tyson Chandler, Eddy Curry, and Kwame Brown have all shown more improvement than Miles. It might have something to do with their position.



> Lampe is BIG,not me..What does big mean,if you are soft,slow of foot and raw???


Lampe has gained 35 pounds since last season. I hope you're not thinking that it was all body fat.

Sweetney is 275 pounds, and 3 inches shorter than Lampe. Yet Sweetney has "quickness" for a big man, while Lampe does not? I guess the more fat on your body, the faster you move.

What Lampe needs is foot coordination, and time to adjust to his new body. Both are easier to acquire than shooting range outside of 18 feet (in Ariza's case, 12 feet).


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

*Re: Not sure ..*



> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> When he was younger, maybe. If I am not mistaken, he has an expiring contract, yes? If true, look for him to have a great year but be very leary. I read a post on another board from the friend of the brother of his ex-girlfriend (yeah, I know) that to him, ball was just a job and that he didn't really love it the way a lot of guys do. It might be true ...that is how he plays. I think a coach can't control the way a guy plays unless he has something to hold over the guy..such as pt. If the guy is just collecting a check, the coach can't do much...unless the guy gets embarrassed by lack of burn.


Good points. But the thing he may find embarrassing is being called out by his peers. It seems he was surprised to hear that Ray Allen thought he was under achieving, and George Karl admitted he never confronted Tim on the matter.

But now with all his dirty laundry being aired he may feel the motivation to prove what he could do if he cared. That's the hope anyway.

At this point he still has two seasons left on the contract, this year and next.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> Houston gave Shandon money, not Utah.


If anybody cares, in my excessively long reply in the buyout thread I disproved this. Layden gave him his money in a re-sign and trade. Not Utah, NOT Houston, but LAYDEN, and Layden alone.

If anyone is too lazy to read that thread I can post the evidence here too. But after the time I put into that reply I'd rather not.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> SAR is a PF, not a SF.
> ...


SAR is a tweener, he's played both positions.

From hoopshype:

An all-around, All-Star player... Plays both forward positions... Has a variety of solutions to score inside and outside... A fake master... Runs the floor like the best forwards... Accurate mid-range shot... Feels comfortable on the baseline... Not that comfortable on defense... Has to work harder on his half of the court... Not a leader.

Back to Miles, 13/5 on 526 fg% in 29 mpg is a bust now? 

This from the guy who thinks Spoon, Othella, Shandon and Eisley were wise acquisitions and "good" contributors?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashidi,not only do you jump to ridiculous conclusions,you then try to support them with even more ridiculous arguments..

wouldnt it be easier to just say that you may have misjudged Ariza a bit prematurely???



> Lampe has gained 35 pounds since last season. I hope you're not thinking that it was all body fat.


Actually thats totally inaccurate..he has lost weight since the Knicks braintrust tried to bulk him up for the 5...He did gain weight from 2 years ago,not from last year



> Layden gave him his money in a re-sign and trade


Oak,you are wasting your breath..The guy refuses to accept the truth when it is so painfully obvious.Of course his rationale is Dolan forced layden into the utah scam...



> Sweetney is 275 pounds, and 3 inches shorter than Lampe. Yet Sweetney has "quickness" for a big man, while Lampe does not? I guess the more fat on your body, the faster you move.


surely you jest with that post..but it pales in comparison to


> And Miles IS a bust



and what makes him a bust vs your beloved Shandone and Eisly who got beaten out by a 5'9" YUTA TABUSE!!!!!!

I thought i heard all the possible BS excuse,but Foot coordination
 

And last but not least,one and for all



> Houston gave Shandon money, not Utah





> Dallas gave Eisley money, not Utah
> 
> 
> > What kind of demented logic is that???
> ...


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Back to Miles, 13/5 on 526 fg% in 29 mpg is a bust now?


They are when they're taken 3rd in the draft. SAR is what a former 3rd pick should look like.



> An all-around, All-Star player... Plays both forward positions... Has a variety of solutions to score inside and outside... A fake master... Runs the floor like the best forwards... Accurate mid-range shot... Feels comfortable on the baseline... Not that comfortable on defense... Has to work harder on his half of the court... Not a leader.


He played both positions when he was younger. He's much more a PF now. At SF he's a slower Van Horn with less shooting range.



> This from the guy who thinks Spoon, Othella, Shandon and Eisley were wise acquisitions and "good" contributors?


I haven't used the word wise in a very long time. You're obviously exaggerating, since you also say "good". They were solild bench contributors on a deep team. Perhaps you slept through 02-03. If these bums were as talentless as you'd like to think, then why did they win only 2 fewer games than this year's team?



> and what makes him a bust vs your beloved Shandone and Eisly who got beaten out by a 5'9" YUTA TABUSE!!!!!!


If you think Tabuse made the team because he's a better player, you're sadly mistaken.



> Actually thats totally inaccurate..he has lost weight since the Knicks braintrust tried to bulk him up for the 5...He did gain weight from 2 years ago,not from last year


He was drafted at 240. What do you mean by 2 years ago, anyway? Last I checked Lampe was drafted in 2003. Which was last year. Clarify.



> Of course his rationale is Dolan forced layden into the utah scam...


*sigh* You just make stuff up. I never said Dolan forced Layden into the Rice trade. Ewing trade yes. Rice trade no.



> So your point is ,someone else vasltly overpaid for the Salt Lake twins,so therefore when you trade for them they are no longer overpaid and layden is therefore exonnerated from his absolute syupidity??


So who else were they going to get for Glen damaged goods Rice? You keep skipping past that one.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> They are when they're taken 3rd in the draft. SAR is what a former 3rd pick should look like.


I thought the comparison of relevance to this thread was Miles to Ariza. Ariza was picked 44th.

And SAR can still play SF. When NJ was talking about getting him for Kidd, even before Kmart was lost, they were planning to keep K at PF and play SAR at Sf, moving Jefferson to SG.



> I haven't used the word wise in a very long time. You're obviously exaggerating, since you also say "good".


Rashidi, in all honesty I don't know if I'm exagerating or not. The truth is I really don't understand what your position is. Sometimes it looks like you're trying to convince us that Layden did a good job, but every fiber in my being tells me you're too smart for that and you must have some other agenda, but I really can't figure out what it IS. Please inform.



> So who else were they going to get for Glen damaged goods Rice? You keep skipping past that one.


How about a pick, or a shorter contract, or wait a year for it to be a valuable expiring contract? Why do you keep asserting they had to get a desperate something/anything for Rice? Do you suggest we do the same now with Moochie, Houston, Penny, JYD, and every bad contract we carry? Just get some overpaid anybody no matter the contract size or length?

Anyway, I think I addressed already in the buyout thread.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> So who else were they going to get for Glen damaged goods Rice? You keep skipping past that one.


Rashidi,i would have taken you at 6 million per,but NOT for 6 years!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

Ariza is going to be a great player.

whoever said kobe and t-mac were good shooters to begin with is wrong. i don't think anybody felt comfortable letting them shoot 3 feet behind the arc when they were rookies. mcgrady especially, was a horrid shooter, and spent early part of his career, much like ariza, defending and getting most of his points from easy dunks. it wasn't until later when he got to orlando that his jumpshot came along, and even then it wasn't as good as it is now. t-mac can now nail 3 pointers 3 feet beyond the arc with consistency, that's something that definitely part of his game when he was a raptor, and i would know that.

even jordan wasn't a good shooter. young jordan also got majority of his points from dunks, and it wasn't until his late prime that he became perhaps the best midrange shooter the game has ever seen.

i think someone needs to really give ariza a break. he was a 2nd round pick, in fact, most players drafted at his position aren't expected to contribute at all. he's really exceeding everyone's expectation, and i think it's only normal for a fan to appreciate an overachieving rookie, no matter which team he's playing for. i don't understand why a fan of the knicks would hate ariza so much. it's not like he's playing against you or the knicks passed up on him. i don't think it's fair to hate on a rookie of your own team, a good one at that, because he's better than no-good overpaid veteran like shandon anderson. you're probably the world's only knicks fan who likes anderson over ariza.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

thank you..thank you

a non biased voice of reason...

of course,we all assume that certain someone is a knicks fan,which is a major assumption


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*c_dog, you are full of crap...*

Shooting from 3 ft past the arc is totally irrelevent...very few guys can shoot from there anyway....consistently at least. Jordan, Tmac, and Kobe ALL played the shootng guard in HS. All shot well although not with NBA range. I watched them all from their first games in college or the league. Tmac was very sought after as a free agent becuase he was a dynamic scorer and because his shot opened up his drives. Jordan was always a so-so shooter but added NBA range as his career went on. Kobe is still not a great shooter but he is clutch and has also added range. Trevor doesn't come close to these guys at the same age from a shooting stand point. How much he will improve remains to be seen.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> of course,we all assume that certain someone is a knicks fan,which is a major assumption


I also would not assume that the Blind Scout has even seen the kid play yet. You don't think he'd let that inhibit him from making sweeping jugements do you?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> I also would not assume that the Blind Scout has even seen the kid play yet. You don't think he'd let that inhibit him from making sweeping jugements do you?


this is what baffles me...i am pretty sure he has never seen ariza play..and he has often said in the past you dont need to "see" someone play to evaluate their game...

and i know,think,thought, that AntiZeke knows better than that....

His biggest problem is once he formulates an opinion,there is no turning back...

And as aggravating as he can be,which i think is his sole purpose on this board,he is a breath of "fresh" air


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> And as aggravating as he can be,which i think is his sole purpose on this board,he is a breath of "fresh" air


how do you mean? i give him credit for not just falling lock-step with the masses, but i don't find opinions that never evolve fresh.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

perhaps i was being too kind....by fresh air,i was implying he is constantly playing Devils advocate,sometimes to the point of absurdity,but none the less,since KBF is gone and Alfa has mellowed there is no one to debate with..

Though i see Alfa has just returned to his old form

And fresh air does not negate that he is a complete nimrod when it comes to layden,the Salt lake dancers Howie and Shanny,and really anything portaining to the Knicks


And good old AntiZeke is as slippery as ever..Take a look at his view on the Celts having a better core and better front line..Yet when asked if the Celts are a better team than the Knicks,he pulls a LaymeDumb...


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*kiss my butt, Truth...*

I am no TT fan just yet and I have have always liked Sweets. Ariza didn't impress me in summer. He looks good now but it may be different when the season starts. No doubt the kid fooled me, though. I thought he would be no impact this year, at least.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

ALFA 

Keep in mind i was very down on sweets last year,and still think he needs to work on his body.Hes an offensive force in te blocks and ha great hands..

TT??I have no idea what to think..He is so talented,and has a power fowards body with SG skills,and a 3rd graders mentality..

Ariza?? I never heard of him before the draft,but he is unquestionably a talent..He has that something special and you can see it..Its not his athletic ability that impresses me..Rashidi is right there.Its his sound fundamentals,defensive skills,and rebounding that is so impresive


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Well knowing how off Rashidi's views are on the Knicks I'm led to believe he's equally off on other teams too, and if we don't see it it's simply because we don't know those teams well enough.

Rashidi, I'm curious, what are your views on Crawford? WHo would you compare him to and what do you think of his contract? Last year you thought he was the equal of Steve Francis, and brought out all kinds of stats to "prove" it. But now that Isiah got him I'm sure you think far, far less of him.

I really want to see how you'll slither through, steadfastly maintaining you were right about his sameness to Francis while insisting he's still a bad deal for Isiah at half his salary and in the absence of Houston.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Last year you thought he was the equal of Steve Francis, and brought out all kinds of stats to "prove" it. But now that Isiah got him I'm sure you think far, far less of him.


Interesting he felt that way as he certainly has changed his views now that Zeke has brought him to NY

His initial claim was Pierce/payton/davis > Marbury/TT/Crawford

naturally he was countered,except by a visiting C's fan



> Crawford is also a chucker, just like Ricky.


was one of his replies


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

*Re: c_dog, you are full of crap...*



> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> Shooting from 3 ft past the arc is totally irrelevent...very few guys can shoot from there anyway....consistently at least. Jordan, Tmac, and Kobe ALL played the shootng guard in HS. All shot well although not with NBA range. I watched them all from their first games in college or the league. Tmac was very sought after as a free agent becuase he was a dynamic scorer and because his shot opened up his drives. Jordan was always a so-so shooter but added NBA range as his career went on. Kobe is still not a great shooter but he is clutch and has also added range. Trevor doesn't come close to these guys at the same age from a shooting stand point. How much he will improve remains to be seen.


Yes, very few guys can shoot from that far, but T-Mac certainly can. Something tells me someone didn't watch a whole lot of magic games last season. Can't blame you, they were horrible, but T-Mac has become an amazing shooter, and he fires off shots when he's way behind the 3pt arc and hits them with great consistency. i'm not bs'ing, just watch him.

And the argument wasn't about players hitting shots way behind the 3pt line, it was about players being able to improve their shots. MJ, Kobe, T-Mac, all improved their shot, you can't deny that. Even you agreed that jordan "added NBA range", or as how i interpreted it, "developed a better midrange game", as i was sayng. shooting is something that can definitely be improved. if i practice shooting everyday, i'm bound to improve. same goes for everyone. ariza can always improve his shooting, and that's all i'm trying to argue. whether kobe is a bad shooter or clutch whatever, i could care less, fact is he became a way better shooter, and it has nothing to do with which position he played in hs.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Alfa,Ariza is going to be every bit as good in the regular season as the pre season...It is mind boggling this kid went in the second round...

And rashidi,did you watch the game???

Interestingly enough,the Bulls fans who track JC are shocked how good Ariza is...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Last week, Stephon Marbury said he feels Ariza should've been a top-five lottery pick. Marbury was teammates with Emeka Okafor in Athens and has seen Dwight Howard play. Marbury's belief is Ariza is every bit as talented as them.



Strong words......Any objections?


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