# The Battle for 2nd Place: Wade vs Anthony



## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

Dwyane Wade vs. Carmelo Anthony! 

Who do you think will turn out better in the future? Honestly, I can't see Carmelo becoming a real superstar. I think he'll turn out to be a Jamal Mashburn or Glenn Robinson, but no superstar. On the other hand, I see Dwyane becoming a new breed of player, an all-star at that. Maybe I'm just biased, but hey what the heck..

So what do you guys think?


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

I'm going with Carmelo Anthony. I just feel he will be a better player. Don't get me wrong, Dwayne Wade will be a sick player but i think Carmelo will be better. He's a better rebounder and scorer (at da moment)
He may not always be a better scorer but he'll always be a better rebounder


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Paul Pierce might be a poor mans Carmelo by the time Melo is 23. I say Melo will be a top 5-10 player in his prime, while Wade will probably be somewhere between 20-30 based on what I've seen and his potential. 

Wade is a good player, I sincerely hate how people overrated him on this site because it makes me feel like I'm hating when I express a realistic opinion. 

I like both players a whole lot, I have become a huge fan of all the rookies in this class, but I dont see this as close. Its one thing to think Lebron will be better than Melo, because thats very realistic, but I really doubt that Wade will ever be on that level. He will have to improve a whole lot. I think Hinrich and Wade are much more comparable than Melo and Wade, but yeah I'm a hater, I know (sarcasm).


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## NugzFan (Jul 26, 2002)

people are getting way too influenced because wade is still in the playoffs. its the freaking east for god sake. they beat the hornets...wow. 

melo was better all year. hes still better. he will be better. not even a debate. cept for heat fans.


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## NugzFan (Jul 26, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>gian</b>!
> Dwyane Wade vs. Carmelo Anthony!
> 
> Who do you think will turn out better in the future? Honestly, I can't see Carmelo becoming a real superstar. I think he'll turn out to be a Jamal Mashburn or Glenn Robinson, but no superstar. On the other hand, I see Dwyane becoming a new breed of player, an all-star at that. Maybe I'm just biased, but hey what the heck..
> ...


lol. so you have wade being an all star but not melo? dear god you are biased. why not just put wade #1 above bron too.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

Carmelo was the ONLY rookie who had a chances of getting ROY over Lebron. Granted the one who deserved it won, but Carmelo arguably deserves it too.

Wade is a level below both of them, but I still like him as a player. He'll be great, just not as good as these two.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

*Re: Re: The Battle for 2nd Place: Wade vs Anthony*



> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> 
> 
> lol. so you have wade being an all star but not melo? dear god you are biased. why not just put wade #1 above bron too.


Maybe it's just me, but I never saw a good game from Melo yet. He always seems to be settling for the mid-range shot and missing (against Minnesota) and that may have turned me off a bit. Hey I might be wrong, but it's just opinion. :yes:


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: Re: Re: The Battle for 2nd Place: Wade vs Anthony*



> Originally posted by <b>gian</b>!
> 
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I never saw a good game from Melo yet. He always seems to be settling for the mid-range shot and missing (against Minnesota) and that may have turned me off a bit. Hey I might be wrong, but it's just opinion. :yes:


there are so many things wrong with that... that i don't even know where to start.


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## Vermillion (Mar 23, 2004)

I'd go with 'Melo. Wade has good moves, but Melo is just a better explosive scorer. Carmelo also has the height advantage.


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## BrYaNBaIlEy06 (Jul 15, 2003)

Dwayne Wade


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Wade


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

Carmelo is very arrogant. After he and his team gets destroyed in a game, and somebody from espn has to nerve to say Wade might be better, he makes the comments that are now present in my signature. 



> It looked like tonight Dwyane took something personal," Anthony said. "I don't know if he had something against me or us as a team."Earlier, some at AmericanAirlines Arena were shaking their heads when the Heat dared run a video from All-Star Weekend that featured ESPN host Kevin Frazier saying it was possible Wade had moved ahead of Anthony as the league's second-best rookie to the Cavaliers' James. "I thought he was going to come out and play a lot harder," Wade said of Anthony's reaction to that clip. "But it revved me up, too." Said Anthony, "I take that and laugh."


In the game talked about wade scored 28 and shot 13-24 including 5 resounding dunks, and Carmelo shot 3-20 from the field. Instead of giving Wade any sort of props for the game he played, he makes the arrogant comments that I just posted. 

As for the 2, I thought about midyear, they were about the same, but then with his late season run, Carmelo pulled away. Then in the playoffs, when Carmelo didnt do well at all, Wade played great and has hit 2 game winning shots, yes, against the Hornets, but everybody knows Baron Davis is a good defender. And then against the Pacers great team defense he is still getting it done, soring 20 in 3 out of the 5 games, and in one of the games he didnt, yesterdays game, he scored 16 and dished out 10 assists. Aginst the Pacers. 

Wade has a *chance* of doing what nobody has done since Larry Bird, which is average 20, 5. and 5 in the conference semifinals as a rookie. He is also the first rookie to lead his team in scoring and assists in the playoffs in a while

For the people saying it isnt a contest, and calling the thread maker a homer, saying it isnt a contest makes u a huge homer urself (which everybody already knew u were). It is a contest, and very close. A lot of people would take Wade over Carmelo, maybe not yourself, but you sure dont speak for everybody like you think u do.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

Wade, IMHO, definately will end up being the better player


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

I don't know about this, but with Melo's attitude, can we all consider the possibility that he might become an "SF version of Steve Francis"???


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> I don't know about this, but with Melo's attitude, can we all consider the possibility that he might become an "SF version of Steve Francis"???


That's kind of what I foresee, but then again, I'm just a LeBron lover who wants to tear Melo down.


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

I go with Melo because of age and upside and the fact that he's playing his natural posistion. Melo is just 3 years younger. He may lead the league in scoring before it's all said and done.

Melo as a rookie put up better numbers and also took his team to the playoffs.

Melo was playing against the #1 seed in the West.

The Heat...they played a Hornets team that was missing an all-star level player. And even with homecourt they won in 7 games.

This series they're having against Indy is pretty similar to the Suns against the Spurs last year.


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## KB21 (Jun 20, 2003)

Carmelo is a nice player, but he's not a super athlete that creates his own shot. His offensive prowess is centered around the mid-range game.

Carmelo, IMO, will be a Glenn Robinson type but with a better work ethic hopefully.

Dwayne Wade strikes me as a player who makes those around him better.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Wade is better and he's shown it this postseason.

Wade is a better scorer. His crossover is so deadly, he might end up in prison someday. Neither of these guys have a solid jumper yet. Melo is a better rebounder b/c he is taller, He plays SF so of course he should be outrebounding a PG. Wade is a better ballhandler and does alot better job of getting his team involved than Melo does.

Wade is also, in my opinion, a better team player and has alot better attitude. Wade never complained publicly about his team and never quit on his team in the middle of a game. Maybe that's what a few extra years of college did for Dwyane. He's alot more mature than Melo. 

I don't see how the fact that "Melo plays in the West so he's better" makes any sense. Melo did basically nothing in the 1st round against the TWolves while Wade hit 2 game winners and helped his team move on. Now he's going against the Pacers, who have the L's best record and still dominating. 20-5-5 in the semi's hasn't been done since Larry Bird. 

If Dwyane didn't get hurt early in the season, he would of been runner up to LeBron. Wade never got any national TV games and very little sportscenter time compared to all the hype that Bron/Melo got. LeBron deserved the ROY trophy and no one can argue that. But Melo wasn't the 2nd best rookie--he was just the popular pick b/c if he wasnt 2nd best, he didn't live up to the same hype that LeBron did. 

Wade is the better player, bottom line.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

I can't help but feel that Wade is getting seriously overrated by some people. It shouldn't surprise me, but like Parker I think the playoff exposure is getting him some undeserved praise.

A few weeks ago on here, most though Carmelo should be getting ROY (even if they knew Lebron was going to) at 19, and now in a few playoff games, Wade has not only passed him as a better player now, but will be a better player in the future.

Imagine Carmelo Anthony after three full seasons in the NBA, and he'd be the same age Dwyane Wade is now. After three seasons, I suspect Carmelo will have done things more impressive than averaging 17/6/4 in the playoffs while beating the Hobbled Hornets in 7 games.

Dwyane Wade is in the same age group as Gilbert Arenas, Joe Johnson, Carlos Boozer, Jason Richardson, etc.. it's amazing that people think because he's a rookie he has the same upside as a guy like Lebron, or even Anthony. He'll improve, I have no doubt about that, but to say he's going to be better than Anthony without providing a logical reason (which no one has so far) is just hopping on the DWade hype train.

KB21, the difference between Anthony and Robinson is athleticism. Robinson relied almost solely on the mid-range shot, where Carmelo has surprising quickness and a very good knack for getting to the hoop and drawing fouls. He also has much better passing instincts, and hopefully as he becomes more of a veteran he will expound on that ability.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

I'll go with Carmelo Anthony, due to his age, but I don't discount the chance that Wade will be better.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I like Melo a lot, but that playoff series against Minnesota, had me really questioning him.

First he was yapping the entire series and he had one good game. Just one. Second he has a two inch height advantage on Trenton Hassell and unlike Peja should be able to take him in the post, and to the basket, but was completely taken out of his game. 

Then in Game 5 he sat out (a game he was clearly needed), because the Nuggets wanted to save his career (a bit of an exaggeration for sure). Okay, say that is true, why did he have to talk so much in the papers. Saying that Wolves might have to fold up the franchise if they lose. They weren't going to lose.

Also remember that guys you are SF's basically (that's the only position they can play) usually become dime a dozen types of players. Most teams would prefer guys who can play two positions, maybe not full time at a second position, but can do both if called upon i.e. Lebron (PG-SF), Wade (PG-SG), Bosh (PF-C), Pietrus (SG-SF), Hayes (SG-SF).

We'll see how much better Melo gets, because he appears to be a legend in his own mind already. I hope those talks with Michael Jordan make him a more well-rounded player. As we saw when he went 1-16 that he didn't bring anything else to table. Not defense, not hustle, not passing, not anything. He was just chucking and ducking his team out of the ball game.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> 
> Wade is a better scorer.
> 
> ...


How is Wade a better scorer? Playing almost the same amount of minutes this season, Anthony averaged 21ppg to Wade's 16ppg. Having a good crossover doesn't make you a great scorer. I agree that Wade, like Ginobili has some almost insane ways of getting the ball in the hole, but he's not and will never be a better scorer than Carmelo.

That doesn't make him a better player either. Mark Madsen has a great attitude compared to Shaq. Shaq has complained publicly about his teammates, so has Kobe Bryant and they aren't immature 19 year olds. Last time I checked, they were both top five players and possibly on their way to getting their fourth championship.

Is the last five turnovers? Because Wade is closer to averaging five turnovers than rebounds. His decision making has to improve. For being such a polished player, it surprises me that he gets so many turnovers.


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

Sovereignz, I agree with you completely. Their's been like 10 threads lately about Wade and in every thread he gets a little bit more overrated. One of the great things about Wade is that he was flying under the radar most of this season, putting up great games and being underrated, he truly was the underdog. Lately he's being hyped up like the next MJ. In two playoff series Wade has become a better scorer than Melo, a defensive stopper, and a great playmaker among other things. I don't mind people really being on the Wade bandwagon, but putting down Melo and making up things like he can't create his own shot or that he doesn't attack the rim is STUPID. 

I can't wait to see how much Wade improves in the next 2 years. With the hype, I truly expect him to be better than Vince Carter/Paul Pierce within two years, and on the T-Mac/Kobe level within 3. Let's not forget, he's already 22. Carmello is 3 years younger with more upside, but I fully expect him to max out at the Glenn Robinson level. 

Right.


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## MiamiHeat03 (Mar 28, 2003)

right now Carmelo is better but i think Wade will have a better carreer.

Well Wade deserves the hype because he was under the radar almost the whole season.
Even in the Rooki and Sophmore allstar game they onbly talked about Carmelo and Lebron.
Wade had about 22 points compared to Melo's 17.

They overhype too much on Carmelo and Lebron the whole season, now its Wade's turn.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> 
> 
> How is Wade a better scorer? Playing almost the same amount of minutes this season, Anthony averaged 21ppg to Wade's 16ppg.


Melo was the first option for his team and got a lot more shots than wade
Wade was the third/second at times

a first option usually averages more than a third

I actually think they will be about the same. Like I said in my earlier post, the difference between these 2 are very close. Melo may be younger, whatever, but I see them toppping out to about the same.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

I'm conflicted here. Wade is one of my favorite players but I've always been able to main a reasonable level of objectivity in these threads. This might sound weak but I'm going to say that they have a similar upside. I think that both players will be among the best at their positions in the future and each has a chance of being a top 10 player. Some might argue that Melo has top 5 potential but I just don't see it. I think that only Lebron will prove to be a top 5 player out of this current rookie class. 

Wade has the advantage of being the better athlete and mismatch. He's got the strength of a SG and the quickness of a PG. On offense, he's a nightmare to match up with. I think that he's everybit the scorer that Melo is but the added responsibility of playing PG has taken some of his scoring prowess away. I can see him averaging 24-25 ppg in his prime if he's able to play SG full time. I think he'll also prove to be a much better defender than Melo. Again, he's quick enough to defend PGs and doesn't give up too much size and strength to SGs. I'm really impressed by his lateral quickness and quick hands at this point. He's shown flashes of greatness this year and I can see him becoming a "stopper" in the future. 

Melo has the advantage of being taller and younger. While he doesn't have Wade's amazing athleticism, he's not a complete stiff either. He's only 19 and is already comparable to Wade statistically, possibly even better. He's a better scorer than Wade, largely because he doesn't have to assume the playmaking responsibilities that Wade does. Still, his post game is incredibly refined and his jumper isn't terrible. He's pretty good at attacking the basket so frequent trips to the FT line will only serve to enhance his reputation as a scorer. His rebounding was very average this year and I look for that to improve in the future. He was a very good rebounder in college and I think he's capable of grabbing 2-3 more boards per game. I think he'll also develop into a better playmaker when he's asked to assume more responsibility in that department. My only real concern with Anthony, outside of his attitude, is his defense. I was never really impressed with him as a defender. While he is an above average athlete, his lateral quickness is not very good. In fact, he moves around more like a PF than a SF or SG. That could cause problems for him in the future. 

Overall, I see both players having a similar upside. Wade is the better athlete and is more versatile but Anthony has the advantage of being bigger and younger. His size will make up for Wade's superiority in some areas and give him an advantage in other areas. I guess I'm just going to have to call this a tie.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

Carmelo Of course


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Sovereignz</b>!
> I can't help but feel that Wade is getting seriously overrated by some people. It shouldn't surprise me, but like Parker I think the playoff exposure is getting him some undeserved praise.
> 
> A few weeks ago on here, most though Carmelo should be getting ROY (even if they knew Lebron was going to) at 19, and now in a few playoff games, Wade has not only passed him as a better player now, but will be a better player in the future.
> ...


Great post with a lot of great points. I agree completely.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> I'm conflicted here. Wade is one of my favorite players but I've always been able to main a reasonable level of objectivity in these threads. This might sound weak but I'm going to say that they have a similar upside. I think that both players will be among the best at their positions in the future and each has a chance of being a top 10 player. Some might argue that Melo has top 5 potential but I just don't see it. I think that only Lebron will prove to be a top 5 player out of this current rookie class.
> 
> Wade has the advantage of being the better athlete and mismatch. He's got the strength of a SG and the quickness of a PG. On offense, he's a nightmare to match up with. I think that he's everybit the scorer that Melo is but the added responsibility of playing PG has taken some of his scoring prowess away. I can see him averaging 24-25 ppg in his prime if he's able to play SG full time. I think he'll also prove to be a much better defender than Melo. Again, he's quick enough to defend PGs and doesn't give up too much size and strength to SGs. I'm really impressed by his lateral quickness and quick hands at this point. He's shown flashes of greatness this year and I can see him becoming a "stopper" in the future.
> ...



this man covered everything.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

if wade was out of the playoffs and carmelo was still in, i have no doubt in my mind that carmelo would have double wade's votes.

just goes to show you, it's always "what have you done for me lately?". pretty sad. wade is a good player, no doubt, but so overrated.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

talk about a statistical dead heat. Wade is at 22, Carmello at 20 and tied at 2. i would say that is tight. i went with Wade. The kid is just special. however for him to maintain that edge IMO will require the development of a 3 pt shot. I dont want him to fall in love with it like others, but he atleast needs it in his repertoire. Without it, his career as a useful player might be short lived (meaning he can only get by on athletic ability for so long). But he works hard and is getting a taste of pressure basketball now, so there is no reason to believe he wont be a damn good player


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

If anyone is overrated it's Melo...


You guys claim Wade is just getting hype b/c he's in the playoffs now. IT'S BECAUSE ITS THE FIRST TIME PEOPLE ARE GETTING TO SEE HIM. Wade has done this all year, but ESPN was too busy showing LeBron lose 50 games and Melo "lead" his team to the playoffs (Which is one of the dumbest statements ever). 

If Wade didn't get hurt at the beginning of the year, the Heat would have won lots more games. And he would of been 2nd to LeBron in the ROY voting.


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## Vermillion (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>MiamiHeat03</b>!
> 
> Even in the Rooki and Sophmore allstar game they onbly talked about Carmelo and Lebron.
> Wade had about 22 points compared to Melo's 17.


Only because Melo was too busy passing to Lebron. The Rookie-Soph game isn't really a good way to measure a player's success, since very little defense was actually played towards the end.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

This will be a good thread to bump in January.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

Alright, to bring some objectivity into the equation here, I'll throw in my two cents. I don't particularly like either of these players, but I don't think you can label me a "hater" of either. But to see Dwyane Wade winning this poll, I really have to throw in my opinion here. I don't know what the fascination with Wade is, I guess he's just the flavor of the week since his team is still in the playoffs. Wade is a very good player, but to see people saying he'll be better than Anthony, or that he's already as good as Anthony is just stupid. Also, what's with saying Anthony will never be more than a Glenn Robinson caliber player? I don't know where people got that from, but Carmelo is arguably already as good, or better than Big Dog in his prime, at the ripe age of 20. Sure, the Heat are still playing in the playoffs, but Carmelo led a team with 17 wins last season into the playoffs in the Western Conference. He came up huge at the end of the season to get them there, too, when the team needed him most. Wade wasn't the main man on the Heat team this year, not to mention the Heat had a better record than the Nuggets last year, and Wade was only the 3rd leading scorer on his _team_. Obviously Wade's FG% is going to be higher than Anthony's, he wasn't forced to take tough shots with the shot clock winding down like Anthony did being the #1 option on his team. Wade played PG a good majority of the time for the Heat, but he's a SG and didn't help his team as much as he could've due to playing out of position. Wade had one of the lowest assists per game average of any starting point guard in the league, and turned the ball over quite a bit. It was quite obvious to me throughout this season that Carmelo and LeBron were on one level, and Wade was on a completely different level, a notch behind those two, and one ahead of Kirk Hinrich and Chris Bosh as far as rookies are concerned.


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

For anybody saying that Carmello will just be Glenn Robinson, you can easily say Wade will just be Steve Francis.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> Alright, to bring some objectivity into the equation here, I'll throw in my two cents. I don't particularly like either of these players, but I don't think you can label me a "hater" of either. But to see Dwyane Wade winning this poll, I really have to throw in my opinion here. I don't know what the fascination with Wade is, I guess he's just the flavor of the week since his team is still in the playoffs. Wade is a very good player, but to see people saying he'll be better than Anthony, or that he's already as good as Anthony is just stupid. Also, what's with saying Anthony will never be more than a Glenn Robinson caliber player? I don't know where people got that from, but Carmelo is arguably already as good, or better than Big Dog in his prime, at the ripe age of 20. Sure, the Heat are still playing in the playoffs, but Carmelo led a team with 17 wins last season into the playoffs in the Western Conference. *He came up huge at the end of the season to get them there, too, when the team needed him most. *Wade wasn't the main man on the Heat team this year, not to mention the Heat had a better record than the Nuggets last year, and Wade was only the 3rd leading scorer on his _team_. Obviously Wade's FG% is going to be higher than Anthony's, he wasn't forced to take tough shots with the shot clock winding down like Anthony did being the #1 option on his team. Wade played PG a good majority of the time for the Heat, but he's a SG and didn't help his team as much as he could've due to playing out of position. Wade had one of the lowest assists per game average of any starting point guard in the league, and turned the ball over quite a bit. It was quite obvious to me throughout this season that Carmelo and LeBron were on one level, and Wade was on a completely different level, a notch behind those two, and one ahead of Kirk Hinrich and Chris Bosh as far as rookies are concerned.


Yea, I guess quiting on his team in the middle of a game really motivated the troops. Melo is a little baby if he doesn't get his way. He'll never live up to his hype if he doesn't mature


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> 
> 
> Yea, I guess quiting on his team in the middle of a game really motivated the troops. Melo is a little baby if he doesn't get his way. He'll never live up to his hype if he doesn't mature


That was one game, and that has nothing to do with what you bolded in my post. I said at the end of the season, when they were in a three team race with Portland and Utah, and Carmelo led them to the playoffs through adversity. He had one bad judgment move against Detroit. He was 19 years old at the time, the guy's going to make mistakes from time to time, it's whether he learns from them, and grows as a player and as a person or not that will determine how good he can become.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

What's up with everybody saying that Melo led his team to the playoffs? Has it occurred to anyone that Andre Miller MIGHT be a better player than Melo right now? Probably a healthy Marcus Camby as well? 

If Carmelo doesn't take it to the hoop more often soon enough, he'll never get better. Jackin up mid-range stuff everytime you get the ball isn't the way to become an all-star. 

The difference with Dwyane is he really gets to the hoop. Then he gets hammered or gets the shot he wants and makes it. He's an "energizer" and makes others around him better as well...

What does Melo do? Score by taking enough shots to get 41 points and 0 assists. 

What does Wade do? Make his team better by penetrating the D

:yes:


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>gian</b>!
> If Carmelo doesn't take it to the hoop more often soon enough, he'll never get better. Jackin up mid-range stuff everytime you get the ball isn't the way to become an all-star.


Why do people keep saying he doesnt get to the hoop? He didnt finish 7th in the league in free throws attempted by getting fouled on jumpshots.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>hobojoe</b>!
> Also, what's with saying Anthony will never be more than a Glenn Robinson caliber player? I don't know where people got that from, but Carmelo is arguably already as good, or better than Big Dog in his prime, at the ripe age of 20.


Glenn Robinson's rookie numbers: .45 fg%, 21.9 PPG, 6.4 RBD, 2.5 ASTS

Melo's: .426 FG%, 21 PPG, 6.8 RBDS, 2.8 ASTS.

GRob has a significantly higher career FG% than Anthony, so I think it's a little early to say Anthony has surpassed his prime yet.

Anyways, the reasons why I think these guys get compared alot : both SFS. Both not super athletic, not laterally very quick, and a little puffy. Both Mid Range guys. Both put up great rookie season numbers, yet had their share of doubters. Both have had issues with teammates. Both have suspect attitudes. (I'm referring to Carmelo arguing with his vets and leaving a game early here, and his yapping). 

The biggest similarity I see, is that they both score and put up numbers, yet don't seem to bring the unique qualities to the table that the real high impact players bring. They do not have brilliant court vision, they are not impossible matchups like a 6'13" guy who can play 1-5 or a 400 pound center, they are not out of this world athletes, etc..


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Why do people keep saying he doesnt get to the hoop? He didnt finish 7th in the league in free throws attempted by getting fouled on jumpshots.


The guy gets to the stripe alot because he shoots in volume. If he was really proficient at getting to the basket, he would have a better FG% than .426 due to the layups and dunks that he would be getting.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>gian</b>!
> What's up with everybody saying that Melo led his team to the playoffs? Has it occurred to anyone that Andre Miller MIGHT be a better player than Melo right now? Probably a healthy Marcus Camby as well?
> 
> If Carmelo doesn't take it to the hoop more often soon enough, he'll never get better. Jackin up mid-range stuff everytime you get the ball isn't the way to become an all-star.
> ...


carmelo doesn't take it to the hoop? have you ever watched him play? ever?

andre miller is better than carmelo? he's one of the most inconsistent starting PGs in the game.

marcus camby? he's a black hole on offense most of the time.

once again, have you even watched a nuggets game, not including the playoffs? i'm sorry, but you're talking out of your ***.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

Here's another thing that I feel needs to be addressed -- people us the argument that Anthony is a much more talented scorer than Wade, has more qays to score, etc..

Anthony shot .427% on the season, Wade shot .465%. For me, this is more important than PPG -- I value efficiency over volume.


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## Wild_Wookiee (May 7, 2004)

Hasn't G. Robinson been a fussy player most of his career. I don't see that out of melo. That's preaty low comparing melo to big dog, I think the 'Ice man' George Gervin is a better comparison.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

I guess Paul Pierce and Kobe Bryant dont get to the line that often either and settle for jumpers too often also because they just shoot in high volume.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Wild_Wookiee</b>!
> Hasn't G. Robinson been a fussy player most of his career. I don't see that out of melo. That's preaty low comparing melo to big dog, I think the 'Ice man' George Gervin is a better comparison.


I think there is plenty of evidence of Melo being fussy at this point in his career -- Melo arguing with his veteran teammates' advice, then sitting and pouting for the stretch of a game, that qualifies as fussy to me. His undermining of Wade's effort against him. His talk of proving Detroit should have taken him, then getting smeared and pouting. His direct insulting of Andrei Kirilenko, saying he shouldn't be an all-star, when AK is a leader in statistics like efficiency and Dan Rosenbaum's improved +/- stats -- AK is waaaaay out of Carmelo's league at this point in their careers. 

This season, IMO, Anthony has been kind of a twat personality-wise. Feel free to disagree.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> carmelo doesn't take it to the hoop? have you ever watched him play? ever?
> ...


I've watched a few Nuggets games and that's what I saw. Carmelo putting up mid-range garbage (yes, he drives most of the time, sorry bout that). Anyway, you're not even proving that Carmelo led his team to the playoffs, you're just bashing the other skilled players in Denver. Carmelo is an egoistic scorer who can't pass well enough. So that makes 3 of the Nuggets starting line-up suck? You can't blame the success on Melo alone, the other guys did great and that's what made the Nuggets win.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>gian</b>!
> You can't blame the success on Melo alone, the other guys did great and that's what made the Nuggets win.


You cant attribute the success of any team on one player alone, basketball doesnt work that way. Melo was the biggest reason though, not the only reason, but the biggest reason.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> You cant attribute the success of any team on one player alone, basketball doesnt work that way. Melo was the biggest reason though, not the only reason, but the biggest reason.


Was he the biggest reason? Remember, Andre Miller led the league in assists one year, and Marcus Camby is an all-star caliber center who has just been hampered by injuries (and he finally got healthy this year). IMO, they did as big a job as Melo did for the Nuggets.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>MongolianDeathCloud</b>!
> Here's another thing that I feel needs to be addressed -- people us the argument that Anthony is a much more talented scorer than Wade, has more qays to score, etc..
> 
> Anthony shot .427% on the season, Wade shot .465%. For me, this is more important than PPG -- I value efficiency over volume.


wow. did it ever occur to you that maybe that's because carmelo was the #1 option and wade #3?

i dunno. seemed obvious to me.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> I guess Paul Pierce and Kobe Bryant dont get to the line that often either and settle for jumpers too often also because they just shoot in high volume.


Carmelo is 5th in the league at FGA, Kobe 24th. Kobe shoots at a higher FG%. And Kobe still gets to the line more. I think it's a little stilted. 

I'm not trying to say that Carmelo does not drive inside, I'm just saying that he's not incredible at it -- he may draw fouls and he gets to shoot alot, but his FG% is atrocious and it would be much higher if he actually got to the basket.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>gian</b>!
> 
> 
> I've watched a few Nuggets games and that's what I saw. Carmelo putting up mid-range garbage (yes, he drives most of the time, sorry bout that). Anyway, you're not even proving that Carmelo led his team to the playoffs, you're just bashing the other skilled players in Denver. Carmelo is an egoistic scorer who can't pass well enough. So that makes 3 of the Nuggets starting line-up suck? You can't blame the success on Melo alone, the other guys did great and that's what made the Nuggets win.


carmelo drives and shoots mid-range jumpers, as well as the occasional 3. what more do you want him to do? look at peja. all he does is shoot. he's still considered one of the best players in the game, no?

i never said melo was the only reason for the nugs' success, but he is the BIGGEST reason. you can't argue with that. where would the nuggets be without melo's 21 ppg? probably 20 games under .500.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MongolianDeathCloud</b>!
> Carmelo is 5th in the league at FGA, Kobe 24th. Kobe shoots at a higher FG%. And Kobe still gets to the line more. I think it's a little stilted.
> 
> I'm not trying to say that Carmelo does not drive inside, I'm just saying that he's not incredible at it -- he may draw fouls and he gets to shoot alot, but his FG% is atrocious and it would be much higher if he actually got to the basket.


Why did you skip around Pierce? Pierce is better than any guard in the league at getting to the hoop and his FG% is attrocious too.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> wow. did it ever occur to you that maybe that's because carmelo was the #1 option and wade #3?
> ...


I agree, and believe that should be brought up then whenever people just compare Wade with Carmelo based on points -- who knows what kind of points Wade would get as the first option, or if he was the entire league's fifth option like Melo. It works both ways.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>gian</b>!
> Was he the biggest reason? Remember, Andre Miller led the league in assists one year, and Marcus Camby is an all-star caliber center who has just been hampered by injuries (and he finally got healthy this year). IMO, they did as big a job as Melo did for the Nuggets.


Okay...Then Odom and Jones were just as big as Wade (if not bigger) in the regular season, and Odom and Butler are just as big in the playoffs as Wade. 

It goes both ways, but I really dont think Miller was as responsible for the Nuggets success as Melo. Camby maybe.


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

Jerry Stackhouse is a career 40% player yet he is probably the best slasher in the last 10 years.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Why did you skip around Pierce? Pierce is better than any guard in the league at getting to the hoop and his FG% is attrocious too.


Because I'm not high on Pierce, I think he's overrated, and did not want to bite off more than I can chew in this discussion. 

Anyways, I guess I didn't pay much attention to either because they demand double teams on the drive, Carmelo does not yet. Very different.

Here's what I define as getting to the hoop, as a perimeter player -- VC's early career. If you are really adept at getting to the basket from the perimeter, you have a high FG%. Michael as well.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>MongolianDeathCloud</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree, and believe that should be brought up then whenever people just compare Wade with Carmelo based on points -- who knows what kind of points Wade would get as the first option, or if he was the entire league's fifth option like Melo. It works both ways.


by that token, you could also say that if wade scored 21 ppg and was the #1 option, his FG% would be much lower. perhaps lower than carmelo? see: lebron.


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## Vermillion (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Shanghai Kid</b>!
> Jerry Stackhouse is a career 40% player yet he is probably the best slasher in the last 10 years.


Although few teams want him now, according to some people.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> by that token, you could also say that if wade scored 21 ppg and was the #1 option, his FG% would be much lower. perhaps lower than carmelo? see: lebron.


Exactly, it's circular. Since this seems to be the strongest argument for Anthony (his PPG advantage), I'm arguing that it's negligble.

Then you have to look at which is more desirable, volume of shots and points, or FG% and less points. I think the FG% differential is so high that it really favors Wade -- we're talking about a .04 difference.

And since the points FG% thing cancels out (or favors Wade, but that's my opinion), you have to look at the less tangible stuff.

I like Wade's attitude 100% more. He is the Heat's leader in the playoffs, this is very clear looking at the games and stats.

Carmelo is younger, but as a counterpoint Wade is more athletic.

Carmelo has less help offensively. Wade plays out of position.

It's pretty close, but in the end I favor Wade because I value efficiency and attitude in players.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MongolianDeathCloud</b>!
> Because I'm not high on Pierce, I think he's overrated, and did not want to bite off more than I can chew in this discussion.
> 
> Anyways, I guess I didn't pay much attention to either because they demand double teams on the drive, Carmelo does not yet. Very different.
> ...


Well I think Melo in his prime will play a whole lot like Pierce, except better, and wont need to control the ball as much to be as effective. 

So if you think Pierce is overrated, atleast you're consistent with it and think Melo is also since they play kind of alike. I just disagree with Melo not getting to the hoop, in the games I've seen he is very aggressive and tries to get to the hoop a lot. Someone in this thread said thats a weakness for him, and I thought that was funny because hes actually very good at it.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> So if you think Pierce is overrated, atleast you're consistent with it and think Melo is also since they play kind of alike. I just disagree with Melo not getting to the hoop, in the games I've seen he is very aggressive and tries to get to the hoop a lot. Someone in this thread said thats a weakness for him, and I thought that was funny because hes actually very good at it.


LOL.. that was me, I guess I don't know a lot about Melo.


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## mysterio (May 20, 2003)

I'm surprised at the even results of this poll. I like Wade more, but I doubt he will ever be better than Melo barring any major injuries. Wade is just Francis II, but Anthony is possibly a future NBA legend. Yeah he choked in the playoffs, but he's still a teen. Just imagine what Anthony will be putting up in his prime.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>mysterio</b>!
> I'm surprised at the even results of this poll. I like Wade more, but I doubt he will ever be better than Melo barring any major injuries. Wade is just Francis II, but Anthony is possibly a future NBA legend. Yeah he choked in the playoffs, but he's still a teen. Just imagine what Anthony will be putting up in his prime.


Francis II??? I resent that remark..  Possibly Steve Francis without the attitude, which has superstar potential!


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Wade is just Francis II, but Anthony is possibly a future NBA legend.


Would someone explain why people see Anthony this way? Besides that "he's a winner."


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Overdog</b>!
> Would someone explain why people see Anthony this way? Besides that "he's a winner."


Name another 19 year old who averaged 20+ points, 6+ rebounds on a playoff team.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Overdog</b>!
> 
> 
> Would someone explain why people see Anthony this way? Besides that "he's a winner."


he's scoring 21 ppg as a 19 year old and could potentially play 15-20 more years in the league.

do you realize how much he could improve in that span? 21 ppg as a 19 year old rookie? that's simply asinine. no other word for it.

lebron, too.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>gian</b>!
> I don't know about this, but with Melo's attitude, can we all consider the possibility that he might become an "SF version of Steve Francis"???


In terms of physical talent I'd always go with the bigger guy, when Carmelo wants to he can get to the rack and there are few people in this league who can stop him.

However.

His attitude is piss poor, and being catered to and fawned over most likely isn't going to change that. 

Attitude is what seperates guys like Kobe Bryant from Guys like Steve Francis or Tim Thomas.

Remember #1 pick overall Glenn Robinson?

Scoring machine, unstoppable, sky was the limit. But what got in his way? Attitude. 

I think of Carmelo in the same way I think Melo will score in heaps but will ultimately fall short unless he learns how to play team ball.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Name another 19 year old who averaged 20+ points, 6+ rebounds on a playoff team.


Didn't the bucks go to the playoffs in 04-05?

If so Glenn robinson!


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Some people are acting like Anthony has an unequivocal edge in upside over Wade. In terms of age, that is true. Anthony has a major edge there.

But Wade has a major edge in athleticism, the other leading indicator of upside. A lack of athleticism can really limit what you can do, how high you can rise (no pun intended).

I think Anthony has the edge, but it's not the *huge* edge some are suggesting. Anthony has the age edge, Wade has the athleticism edge. Beyond that, Wade has a skill that's hard or impossible to teach: play-making for others. *However* Anthony has an edge that cannot be taught ever: superior size.

So, it's not so cut-and-dry, but I'd give Anthony the edge.

This, incidentally, is what makes LeBron James such an uber-prospect: He has the age advantage, the size advantage, the play-making advantage *and* the athleticism advantage.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mysterio</b>!
> I'm surprised at the even results of this poll. I like Wade more, but I doubt he will ever be better than Melo barring any major injuries. Wade is just Francis II, but *Anthony is possibly a future NBA legend.* Yeah he choked in the playoffs, but he's still a teen. Just imagine what Anthony will be putting up in his prime.



That statement in the bold just shows how much hype Melo gets. I would be careful to even say LeBron will be a future NBA legend, and he is a good deal better than Melo. He's played in the NBA 1 year. 1 YEAR! You can't judge his entire career off of 1 year! If I said Dwyane Wade is going to be a hall of fame guard, people would laugh at me. Saying Yao Ming is going to be a hall of fame player is outrageous too b/c he's only played 2 years. Give them some time before you start penciling young guys into the hall of fame. 

Wade is just as good, if not, better than Melo. People try and act like Melo is at a way higher level than Wade right now and thats ridiculous.


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## mysterio (May 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I knew somebody would pounce all over that statement, but decided not to make a disclaimer on it. Emphasize the word "possible"... Anyway, I never have discounted Wade to be a future HOFer. But so far, what Wade has done has been done before many many times. Carmelo's achievements are ground-breaking.


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## therealdeal (Dec 24, 2003)

> Name another 19 year old who averaged 20+ points, 6+ rebounds on a playoff team.


Moses Malone actually outdid everybody at age of 19:

19 ppg on 60% shooting ( 20% better than Carmelo )

15 rebounds per game too.

Scoring 20 points ( or any amount ) on 40% shooting means absolutely nothing and anybody can do it.

Wade is the Rookie of the year ( what idiots decided to vote on this before the playoffs? Playoffs are the part of the season ) there is no two ways about it.

Carmelo and Lebron are overhyped losers. Whether they can improve, who knows. I don't think they'll improve much. Wade is winning games right now. Let's not assume anything about Lebron who didn't even make the playoffs and Carmelo. They shouldn't give awards on potential.

If you want to give awards on potential, then let Yao have sex with Lisa Leslie and proceed to immediately give give ROY and MVP award for 2021/22 season to their fetus.

Age also has absolutely nothing to do with it and Carmelo or Lebron have no edge over Wade just because they are 19. Some people stop developing at 24, some at 20 some as early as 17 or 18. There is absolutely no guarantee or even a greater chance that Carmelo or Lebron will improve more based on being younger. If anything Lebron looks like he's already 30 years old, and of the three will most likely improve the least. He looks done.
What is he going to do??? Baloon to 350 pounds like Shaq and try playing as a fat shorter center???


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>therealdeal</b>!
> 
> 
> If you want to give awards on potential, then let Yao have sex with Lisa Leslie and proceed to immediately give give ROY and MVP award for 2021/22 season to their fetus.


:rotf: :laugh:


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>therealdeal</b>!
> 
> There is absolutely no guarantee or even a greater chance that Carmelo or Lebron will improve more based on being younger.


Except there is greater chance. Empirically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. You're right that there's no guarantee. There's no guarantee that the sun won't supernova tomorrow. We'll just have to rest on the near-100% chance that it won't and that James and Anthony will improve.

I'm not sure why you simply make up your facts. If you have a strong position, won't it remain strong even if you stick to actual facts?


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>gian</b>!
> What's up with everybody saying that Melo led his team to the playoffs? Has it occurred to anyone that Andre Miller MIGHT be a better player than Melo right now? Probably a healthy Marcus Camby as well?


Carmelo _did_ lead the Nuggets to the playoffs. I'm not talking about the intangible form of leadership, but how he led the team into the playoffs by his clutch play down the stretch. Fighting with Utah and Portland for the 8th and final playoff spot, Anthony elevated his game. During the Nuggets stretch of 4 wins in 5 games to wrap up the playoff birth, Anthony scored 41, 20, 36, 20, and 30 points. Miller was inconsistent all season, and in that same stretch, there was no exception. He had a great game(14-16-9) and followed it up with 14 points and 9 assists, but then only managed 9 points and 3 assists the next game. Miller then scored 14 points, and only 4 assists, then had only 6 points on 1-6 shooting and 5 assists, and then came back strong with 21 points. 



> If Carmelo doesn't take it to the hoop more often soon enough, he'll never get better. Jackin up mid-range stuff everytime you get the ball isn't the way to become an all-star.


I guess Kevin Garnett isn't good? He's the second leading scorer in the league, and the MVP, and I don't see him in the Top 10 in the league in Free throws attempted.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> I guess Kevin Garnett isn't good? He's the second leading scorer in the league, and the MVP, and I don't see him in the Top 10 in the league in Free throws attempted.


Kevin Garnett helps his team in more ways than any other player in the league. He's a lot more than a scorer. I don't think you can compare Carmelo Anthony to KG in any way. If KG didn't play defense, didn't pass the ball, and didn't inspire his teammates, he wouldn't be the great player he is.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MongolianDeathCloud</b>!
> Glenn Robinson's rookie numbers: .45 fg%, 21.9 PPG, 6.4 RBD, 2.5 ASTS
> 
> Melo's: .426 FG%, 21 PPG, 6.8 RBDS, 2.8 ASTS.
> ...


That's fair enough, I'll also add that neither were/are good defensive players so that's pretty much a wash. I will say that Carmelo will surpass Robinson's prime next season, because Robinson didn't get much better after his rookie season. However, Robinson was also 2 years older than Anthony in his rookie year.



> Anyways, the reasons why I think these guys get compared alot : both SFS. Both not super athletic, not laterally very quick, and a little puffy. Both Mid Range guys. Both put up great rookie season numbers, yet had their share of doubters. Both have had issues with teammates. Both have suspect attitudes. (I'm referring to Carmelo arguing with his vets and leaving a game early here, and his yapping).


I'll give you that one too, those are fair similarities between the two.



> The biggest similarity I see, is that they both score and put up numbers, yet don't seem to bring the unique qualities to the table that the real high impact players bring. They do not have brilliant court vision, they are not impossible matchups like a 6'13" guy who can play 1-5 or a 400 pound center, they are not out of this world athletes, etc..


Carmelo really is an underrated athlete. He's definitely not at the level of LeBron, or even Wade, but he can hold his own on the court athletically.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Overdog</b>!
> 
> 
> Kevin Garnett helps his team in more ways than any other player in the league. He's a lot more than a scorer. I don't think you can compare Carmelo Anthony to KG in any way. If KG didn't play defense, didn't pass the ball, and didn't inspire his teammates, he wouldn't be the great player he is.


OK, then KG is not a good scorer? I was just using Garnett as an example, since he's the second leading scorer in the league and doesn't get to the line as often as he should.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> OK, then KG is not a good scorer? I was just using Garnett as an example, since he's the second leading scorer in the league and doesn't get to the line as often as he should.


He's a good scorer but not a great scorer. Peja is one of the leading scorers in the league too, but he's not really a great scorer either.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Didn't the bucks go to the playoffs in 04-05?
> ...


Robinson was a rookie in 94-95, not 04-05, and no, they didn't make the playoffs. They were in the hunt until about the last week of the season when they dropped a few straight.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Overdog</b>!
> 
> 
> He's a good scorer but not a great scorer. Peja is one of the leading scorers in the league too, but he's not really a great scorer either.


They're not great, as in all-time greats, but they're two of the best in the league today, I don't think you can really dispute that. They tied for the second most ppg this season, they both play on very good teams with multiple capable scorers, and both shoot a high percentage.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>therealdeal</b>!
> 
> 
> Moses Malone actually outdid everybody at age of 19:
> ...


I'm going to be a sucker and respond to this post. First of all, you can't compare stats from different eras, I don't know how many times you need to be told that. The game is played differently, at different paces and with different rules, you can't compare the two. And is it supposed to be a disrespect to Carmelo to compare him to Moses Malone?



> Scoring 20 points ( or any amount ) on 40% shooting means absolutely nothing and anybody can do it.


Just a ridiculous statement, and just plain not true. Let's see you do it hot shot. 



> Wade is the Rookie of the year ( what idiots decided to vote on this before the playoffs? Playoffs are the part of the season ) there is no two ways about it.


No, I don't think so. Wade is not the rookie of the year, and I think that just about proves what a hater you are. Only biased(way biased) Heat fans and haters would say Wade is the ROY.



> Carmelo and Lebron are overhyped losers. Whether they can improve, who knows.


Nobody does know, but logic tells you that teenagers in their first season will get better. There's a chance that they won't, but it's a very small one.



> I don't think they'll improve much.


Because you're a hater.



> Wade is winning games right now.


Wade has Lamar Odom(one of the top 10 talents in the game) as well as Eddie Jones(the team's leading scorer). He didn't have to lead the team this season.



> Let's not assume anything about Lebron who didn't even make the playoffs and Carmelo. They shouldn't give awards on potential.


LeBron was the best rookie this season, so he won ROY. Exactly what awards did Carmelo win?




> If you want to give awards on potential, then let Yao have sex with Lisa Leslie and proceed to immediately give give ROY and MVP award for 2021/22 season to their fetus.


Again, no awards were given out on potential.



> Age also has absolutely nothing to do with it and Carmelo or Lebron have no edge over Wade just because they are 19. Some people stop developing at 24, some at 20 some as early as 17 or 18. There is absolutely no guarantee or even a greater chance that Carmelo or Lebron will improve more based on being younger. If anything Lebron looks like he's already 30 years old, and of the three will most likely improve the least. He looks done. What is he going to do??? Baloon to 350 pounds like Shaq and try playing as a fat shorter center???


This crap is just too ridiculous for me to even comment on. Just ridiculous...


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Why do people keep saying he doesnt get to the hoop? He didnt finish 7th in the league in free throws attempted by getting fouled on jumpshots.


Best point in the entire thread. Perhaps the best point in any Melo argument.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MongolianDeathCloud</b>!
> 
> 
> The guy gets to the stripe alot because he shoots in volume. If he was really proficient at getting to the basket, he would have a better FG% than .426 due to the layups and dunks that he would be getting.


This was the *edited: Please remain civil* in this thread. Perhaps one of the weakest counterpoints made in any Melo argument.


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

From reading this thread it's obvious how some Melo supporters are acting the same way as many threatened Lebron supporters did this year.

Lebron supporters here were notorious for being threatened by Melo, and were insulted by the comparisons between Bron and Melo when they were justified. 

Well Melo supporters are acting the same way now. Wade deserves the right to be compared.


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

At first Wade supporters were coming off as logical. Now they're just dissing Carmello in the dumbest ways to try to make Wade look good.

Wade has proven nothing siginificant. I haven't seen him carrying his team or anything like Baron Davis was doing with New Orleans. His playoff averages are decent, nothing spectacular. He had lots of talent around him in the same way that Carmello had talent around him. The Heat beat a frictional New Orleans team that was missing an all-star player.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Now Carmello up 31-29 with 6 undecided. a statistical dead heat if there ever was one!


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Now Carmello up 31-29 with 6 undecided. a statistical dead heat if there ever was one!


When I first posted, Wade was ahead of Anthony in the voting. My brilliant arguments are obviously swaying the votes for Melo.


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## CrossOver (May 19, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shanghai Kid</b>!
> At first Wade supporters were coming off as logical. Now they're just dissing Carmello in the dumbest ways to try to make Wade look good.
> 
> Wade has proven nothing siginificant. I haven't seen him carrying his team or anything like Baron Davis was doing with New Orleans. His playoff averages are decent, nothing spectacular. He had lots of talent around him in the same way that Carmello had talent around him. The Heat beat a frictional New Orleans team that was missing an all-star player.


Buddy buddy buddy. At least you didn't mention why Arenas couldn't of been included as a write in option.

Why do you hate on Wade so much? I can't remember how many times you've posted bashing on Wade for some reason or another.

Lets look at some facts, please. 

Fact: Wade received absolutlely no hype/publicity/love from Espn and the sporting world in general because of Lebron and Melo. I as a Heat fan was a little miffed that he didnt get more national exposure, but, those other 2 did deserve attention for what they were doing in the L as well. 

Now that Melo and Bron have completed their seasons, isn't it natural to focus attention on Wade? You sit here and say that Wade hasnt carried his team the way Baron Davis has. DO YOU EVEN WATCH HEAT GAMES? I mean, damn, are you serious? 

Who took the last shot in game one of the Mia/NO series? It wasn't a last second prayer of a shot either. He backed B diddy down, crossed him over nasty, and floated in the winning shot with Augmon, Magloire closing in. 

Who made the go ahead 3 with 1 second on the shot clock in a crucial game 5 moment of the same series? Yup, thought so.

Who had 27 pts, 7 reb and 6 assists in a crucial game 6 on the road in NO? Yup, same kid.

The fact that he has been solid if not spectacular in the playoffs against a much more physical, experienced playoff team in Indiana as a rookie, and has stepped UP his production from the regular season means he hasn't "proven nothing significant?"

Please. Funny thing is I'm a basketball fan. I think Lebron, Melo, Wade, Bosh etc.. are great for the game. I love watching all these kids play because they will be improving. Some more than others, but, it leaves me excited for the future of the game.

I'm going to leave it with this. I ran across this on espn's site today. Thought it was kind of ironic the way most of these casual fans think that Wade being better than Melo now or in the future is a ludicrous statement.

Click the link. Enjoy. 



> On Indiana-Miami ...
> 
> I'm too blinded by my enjoyment of the Heat to think rationally about this series. If the NBA gods drew up a guard on paper just for me, just to make me happy, I think it would be Dwyane Wade. Doesn't matter where he plays, who's on the floor with him, what the situation is ... he just comes up big and makes everyone else look better. If I had to rank the guys from last year's draft, I'd have 'Bron 1st, Wade 2a, Melo 2b and Darko 4th, just because he's brought us so much comedy over the past year. Pistons fans realize they could have had 'Melo or Wade in this Nets series, right? I mean, they do realize that. Right?


Word.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/wiley/040517


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## CrossOver (May 19, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shanghai Kid</b>!
> At first Wade supporters were coming off as logical. Now they're just dissing Carmello in the dumbest ways to try to make Wade look good.


Forgot to add. Dissing Melo or anyone else for that matter has absolutely nothing to do with Wade playing the way he has been playing.

When someone is balling, who cares what anyone else does when it's him thats producing. With this logic, if I dis Shaq, that means Im trying to make Brian Grant look good?

Word.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>gian</b>!
> 
> 
> Was he the biggest reason? Remember, Andre Miller led the league in assists one year, and Marcus Camby is an all-star caliber center who has just been hampered by injuries (and he finally got healthy this year). IMO, they did as big a job as Melo did for the Nuggets.


How exactly does the fact that Andre Miller led the league in assists one year have any relevance to the Nuggets success this season? He averaged just under 11 assists that season, he only averaged just over 6 this season. Miller was inconsistent all season.


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

Crossover, you can hype Wade all up you want. It's not changing my opinion that Carmello 3 years younger has more upside than Wade. I certainly don't hate on Wade, I'm just not caught up in the hype machine.

Now that Lebron and Carmello's season have ended, shouldn't we focus on Wade?- No, how about we just focus on the game itself. Nobody is questioning that Wade can hit some big shots. That doesn't take away from the fact that Baron Davis was absolutely roasting him from Game 2 on. Has he really stepped up his game in the playoffs? His FG% is down and his turnovers are up. Heat fans claim that he's been doing this all season, so why should he be treated special now if he's doing in the playoffs what he's been doing all year long? Wade is a 2 guard, not a PG. I think he'll be even better when he's playing his natural posistion. His game relies on athletecism. If he develops a consistent jumpshot, he'll be deadly. Bottom line, he hasn't done anything that Stevie Francis hasn't done. Francis was just as athletic, just as explosive getting to the hoop, and even had better courtvision as a rookie. Malbury was just as explosive getting to the hoop as a rookie as Wade was. Wade can very well become a top 15 player, and so can Carmello. 

I think the whole rookie class is good for the game. Your obviously a huge Wade fan, dare I say *edited: If you can't make your point civilly, refrain from posting*. Nobody is saying that it's ridiculas to say that Wade could be better. Obviously he could be. Carmello and Lebron were higher picks for a reason. Cause they're younger and in general looked at to have more upside.


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## CrossOver (May 19, 2003)

Lol....I've been called worse than a "*edited*." 

The original point of this thread was pretty simple. Wade or Melo? I have not once discounted your opinion on Melo being better in the future as Wade. I, unlike some posters try to see things from all sides. I do think however, those that have dismissed Wade are incorrect as well. 

The fact that you have resorted to name calling leads me to believe I have upset you in some way shape or form. If that is the case, please PM me your home address so I can mail you a box of tissues to wipe the tears away.

You also recieved a reply from me on another thread about Wade not being a pg. Hmm, last time I checked, *I* was the one stating he should slide over to his natural position of SG. So, what are you trying to tell me again? 

Last time I checked by the way, the game was played by the players. So, if we want to celebrate a players game on the court, arent we talking about the game? Please clarify because Im not too sure what you tried to say with that.

Oh, and, thanks for the compliment. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.


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## JackTheWrapper (Jul 4, 2003)

You been caught up on the hype manchine all season long.
With Melo and Lebron, But Carmelo wont be anything special just another 26/7/2 guy
Wade wont be anything close to Lebron but Wade has more all around talent. He can contribute in many ways.

Clearly Melo has done a marvelous job as a 19 year old but i only see him improve his ppg by 3 or 4 ppg more.
If Wade had been the #1 option he would defitely average 21ppg. Having Odom,and EJ does hurt his shots attempted and his ppg. I think he will become a #1 option in 2 or 3 years.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Anyone who thinks that somehow Baron Davis beat up on Wade during their playoff season should be forced to watch baseball. That's just ignorant. Aren't you the same guy that runs around hyping Kwame Brown as a better talent than Pau Gasol though?


Figures.

Thanks to that guy for answering my question about the 94-95 playoffs I spaced on the year though.

And for the guy who listed Wade as Having the attributes of Eddie Jordan and Lamar Odom... HAVE YOU SEEN THE NUGGETS SUPPORTING CAST?

Also Eddie Jordan as an asset to playing with... hahahahhaha please, he also isn't leading his team in points in the playoffs, that's another guy.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JackTheWrapper</b>!
> You been caught up on the hype manchine all season long.
> With Melo and Lebron, But Carmelo wont be anything special just another 26/7/2 guy
> Wade wont be anything close to Lebron but Wade has more all around talent. He can contribute in many ways.
> ...


:laugh: "Just another 26/7/2 guy"? You do realize that not a single player in the NBA this entire season averaged 26/7/2 this year, don't you? Also, how do you figure the "2" part of that equation? He averaged just under 3 assists per game this season. In addition to that, he averaged over 6 boards a game this season, so he won't improve very much at all in that category in his entire career?


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> And for the guy who listed Wade as Having the attributes of Eddie Jordan and Lamar Odom... HAVE YOU SEEN THE NUGGETS SUPPORTING CAST?


Yes I have, and my point was that Wade was the 3rd leading scorer on the Heat begind Odom and *Jones*(Not Jordan).


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## CrossOver (May 19, 2003)

Little off topic but, nice avatar Hobojoe.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>CrossOver</b>!
> Little off topic but, nice avatar Hobojoe.


Thanks.:bsmile: :laugh:


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

Jackthewrapper, I'm just wondering why you think Wade is going to improve more than Carmello will.

Crossover, we're both in agreement that Wade should be a 2 guard. I wasn't aware that you were the one who created the thought and thus nobody could share that. You should get that copywrighted.....

Knicksbiggestfan, I don't know what the Wizards coach has anything to do with it.


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## RunToFreeForFly (Jul 16, 2003)

To compare their futere.

You need

1. time machine
2. Utramate quantane computer
3. Ruler


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

Quick question, what numbers do you see Wade putting up in his prime?


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shanghai Kid</b>!
> Quick question, what numbers do you see Wade putting up in his prime?


Playing Point Guard: 20 ppg, 7 apg, 5 rpg
Playing Shooting Guard: 24-5-6


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## CrossOver (May 19, 2003)

These numbers are reasonable. Could be higher dependant on a few factors. 

I really think he can shine as a 2 though, so, 24-26 as a career year for him.


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## CrossOver (May 19, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shanghai Kid</b>!
> Crossover, we're both in agreement that Wade should be a 2 guard. I wasn't aware that you were the one who created the thought and thus nobody could share that. You should get that copywrighted.....


My reply to your earlier thread was very simple. You were making all kinds of comparisons to Steve Francis. I was disputing your comparisons with facts about Wade's previous experience playing PG. Before the NBA it was none.

I went on to say how Wade is a 2 playing the pg position out of necessity for Miami to put its best 5 on the floor. 

Please point out in my post where I say I created this idea all by my little self? Guess what, you can't!

Reading comprehension ownz!


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

hobojoe just to clear things up, the Moses Malone statline was posted because someone asked "Who has a better average than Melo at age 19?" and there you have it, Moses. 

Melo definitely has an upside, he was a good rookie this year and I actually thought he should've gotten co-rookie of the year. But it's hard to see him improving much. His rebounds won't reach 9 a game I'm guessing, and his assists won't even reach 5. I see Melo having a Ray Allen statline and that will be good enough. 

Wade on the other hand, I see what Steve Francis was supposed to be had he not developed an attitude. Remember, Steve Francis can just blow up and get the triple-double, Wade can do that too. I think the 20/7/5 statline is very accurate. 

So my projected stats:

Anthony: 23 pts, 7 rebs, 4 ast per game

Wade: 20 pts, 5 rebs, 7 ast per game

I'll take Wade I think, so long as he keeps his turnover numbers down. Anthony really turned me off with his 41 point 0 assist night. Will he never pass when he's on fire?


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>gian</b>!
> Anthony really turned me off with his 41 point 0 assist night. Will he never pass when he's on fire?


Oddly enough, Wade had a 13-24 game this season where he finished with 28 points and 0 assists. Double standard?


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Oddly enough, Wade had a 13-24 game this season where he finished with 28 points and 0 assists. Double standard?


Not a double standard when the night before he dropped 7 and the night after he dropped 5.

Compare playoff averages if you need further proof, they just wanted him to go after Melo that night.

Averaging 6.4 in the post season is a real accomplishment for this kid. Never played point guard ( highschool but what the hell does that do) on a serious level. 

I'm real impressed with anyone who can come into the league and do that, it speaks highly of his versatility that he has the cognitive ability to switch his game and role so that the offense runs through him and not too him.


Just another of the many reasons, I think Wade is going to be a harder worker and eventually the better player.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

I think one problem everyone in here is having is this:

Eventhough I believe Dwyane is a better player than Melo is, I don't discount that Melo is one hell of a player. 

The problem is that most people have seen alot more of Melo this season b/c the Heat weren't expected to compete this year. The playoffs come around and Dwyane is on TV shining every other night. Of course people will start hyping him up now b/c they are finally seeing him actually play, not just highlights or articles about him. 

I don't see how anyone can claim it's unfair the hype that Dwyane is getting, because LeBron (who deserves all the hype) and Melo have been hyped from the day they were drafted.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> they just wanted him to go after Melo that night.


If you want to use that, then I'll use the same logic and say they wanted Melo to go after the Sonics that night he scored 41 with 0 assists. I dont see how Wade would go after Melo when they play different positions.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Caron_Butler</b>!
> I think one problem everyone in here is having is this:
> 
> Eventhough I believe Dwyane is a better player than Melo is, I don't discount that Melo is one hell of a player.
> ...


I'll use this example, because I understand your position I just dont agree with it. But if a poll was made about Hinrich vs. Wade, would you say something similar to "I dont think this is even close"? The distance in my mind between Melo and Wade is the same distance between Wade and Hinrich in other peoples mind. Thats where we are in similar positions, however I dont agree with your stance on Wade. I think Lebron will probably be a notch above everyone. Bosh, Darko and Melo will likely be the next tier, and Wade and Hinrich will be the 3rd tier.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> If you want to use that, then I'll use the same logic and say they wanted Melo to go after the Sonics that night he scored 41 with 0 assists. I dont see how Wade would go after Melo when they play different positions.


It's that whole rookie of the year thing, which is the very same thing that makes the sonics comparision useless, and invalidates this weird synedoche for standards on what I think is selifshness that you've concoted.


Melo has also punched more kittens than Wade so I don't think he'll improve as much if they have anything to say about it.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Dwayne Wade has 6 postseason games of 20+ points. The last rookie to do that was Alonzo Mourning in 1993 (i think that was the year) Dwayne still has 1 if not 2 more chances to get more and if he advanced through to the next round you would have to think he will get a few more


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> It's that whole rookie of the year thing, which is the very same thing that makes the sonics comparision useless, and invalidates this weird synedoche for standards on what I think is selifshness that you've concoted.
> 
> 
> Melo has also punched more kittens than Wade so I don't think he'll improve as much if they have anything to say about it.


You're the one who is looking down upon a 41 point performance because Melo didnt get an assist, but condoning another hot performance of 28 points on great shooting but no assists by Wade simply because it was against Carmelos team, despite the fact they play completely different positions. 

I agree with whoever said people are now just digging for reasons to either boost Wade or hate on Melo.


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

The fact that Carmello has a bigger season high in assists says alot.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Shanghai Kid</b>!
> The fact that Carmello has a bigger season high in assists says alot.


Uh, that's just an immature statement, seriously. It says nothing, averages on the other hand, says a lot.


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## thefuture2 (May 2, 2004)

IMO carmelo should have won the ROY this year. He got his team to the playoffs and thats all that matters. The only reason Bron got it was because he got more national TV time.


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## xela (Apr 20, 2004)

John the Cool Kid is turning into BigAmare in terms of Kirk Hinrich bias . . . Kirk is good, but Dwayne Wade is waaaaaaaaaaay better. Do you really think a 23 year old rookie that averages 35 minutes per game and shoots below forty percent will improve that much? 

Sure Dwayne averages just as many minutes, but keep in mind he played two less years of college ball, so he is less of a finished product. I see Kirk as being a 16 ppg 8 apg type player, and he might make one or two all star games. 

You can say that Kirk doesn't get open looks, so that makes his FG% suffer. I agree, but if you put Dwayne on the Bulls then I bet he would score twenty a night this past year on about 43% shooting. 

Dwayne has a higher floor and ceiling then Kirk. He is and (barring serious injury) always will be the better player. 

That being said, Melo is a little better then Dwayne overall. Dwayne has the ability to be an elite defender, and I don't think that Melo has the lateral footspeed to be at such an elite level. 

But Melo will be a better scorer and rebounder, which in my mind will outweigh his defensive deficiencies.


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## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

So what if Dwayne didn't make ROY. He is still the most fun to watch out of the class, (yes I said it over Lebron). He will be a very special player if he can stay healthy, similar to AI.


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## Captain Kool (May 18, 2004)

Age has nothing to do with upside...Age is the most overrated unit of measurement.

Look at James and Milicic. Milicic is going to develop way more than James. Milicic can still develop his body and his game, while James won't be much better than right now, so he can only develop his game and that's why I don't think that James in his prime is going to be better than Milicic in his prime.


Probably Anthony has gone through a level of development that Wade hasn't gone through.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> I'll use this example, because I understand your position I just dont agree with it. But if a poll was made about Hinrich vs. Wade, would you say something similar to "I dont think this is even close"? The distance in my mind between Melo and Wade is the same distance between Wade and Hinrich in other peoples mind. Thats where we are in similar positions, however I dont agree with your stance on Wade. I think Lebron will probably be a notch above everyone. Bosh, Darko and Melo will likely be the next tier, and Wade and Hinrich will be the 3rd tier.


Wade vs. Hinrich used to be the main comparison BEFORE Wade actually got some national TV exposure. Since then, I think most would say that Wade is better. In my opinion, Wade is better, but I haven't gotten to see Hinrich play (thank you ESPN) since the National Title Game vs. Syracuse. I don't think I've seen Bosh play this season either. It's very hard and completely stupid to try and make statements that "you know" someone is better if you haven't seen them play. Living in Ohio, I've seen lots (and then some) of LeBron. ****, I saw LeBron in person probably before any of you (State Playoffs Semi-Final when he was a Soph, the day he won his 1st Mr. Basketball). That's the main reason I am not crazy about LeBron. I Know that he's good, but I've heard about him for 5 years now, so he's not as thrilling to me as he is to everyone else. I've seen plenty of Melo this year too. And watching about the same amount of game Dwyane has played, I think Dwyane gives more to his team than Melo does. Each player does certain things better, but overall, I think Dwyane is better. People can say Melo will still improve, but remember Dwyane is only 22 yrs old!!! Since when did 22 yr old rookies become peaked veterans who are in their prime???


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shanghai Kid</b>!
> The fact that Carmello has a bigger season high in assists says alot.


9<10


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

Wade's season high was 8, Carmello's was 9.

Their both going to be good, I think we'll find out whose going to be better by seeing who improves the most next year.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Shanghai Kid</b>!
> Wade's season high was 8, Carmello's was 9.
> 
> Their both going to be good, I think we'll find out whose going to be better by seeing who improves the most next year.


exactly


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## CrossOver (May 19, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shanghai Kid</b>!
> Wade's season high was 8, Carmello's was 9.
> 
> Their both going to be good, I think we'll find out whose going to be better by seeing who improves the most next year.


 , he sees the light!


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shanghai Kid</b>!
> Wade's season high was 8, Carmello's was 9.
> 
> Their both going to be good, I think we'll find out whose going to be better by seeing who improves the most next year.


In which case you must mean regular season high, as the basketball season is not over and Wade has had two 10 assists games. Your seasonal definition is a stupid quantifier at best.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shanghai Kid</b>!
> Knicksbiggestfan, I don't know what the Wizards coach has anything to do with it.


Nothing, re-read the post again.

Posts like these ones

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89853&pagenumber=2

Speak volumes about your ability to evaluate basketball talent.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>xela</b>!
> John the Cool Kid is turning into BigAmare in terms of Kirk Hinrich bias . . . Kirk is good, but Dwayne Wade is waaaaaaaaaaay better. Do you really think a 23 year old rookie that averages 35 minutes per game and shoots below forty percent will improve that much?


That's not true at all. I don't think of Hinrich as highly as John does, but that doesn't mean he's blinded by a bias like BigAmare is with his Sun/Amare obsession. He's entitled to his own opinion, and he's not close-minded about it. And how does someone with 3 posts know the posting tendancies of posters on this site?


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> In which case you must mean regular season high, as the basketball season is not over and Wade has had two 10 assists games. Your seasonal definition is a stupid quantifier at best.


No, it's unfair to compare Wade's postseason high against Carmello's since Carmello was out quickly in the 1rst round. So I compared their regular season high.

Knicksbiggestfan, I never once said that Kwame right now is better than Gasol. I said that he has the potential to end up being better and that I would take him on my team for defense and potential alone. Some people would agree with me on that, but you seem to find it ridiculas as if your almighty opinion is superior to everyone else's. Posts like yours speak volumes about how some people have no idea what their talking about.


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## xela (Apr 20, 2004)

*To hobojoe . . .*

I have been on the board for a long time, I just never bothered to sign up.

I know he isn't as biased as BigAmare, but who is?

He is still a very, very biased pro Kirk Hinrich person.

Other then that, I think he is a swell poster, very knowledgable and informative. But he overrates Kirk by alot.


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

Everybody has their favorite players, so of course they're going to defend them. I just hate when people try to diss another player to make their player look better.


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## SKiP (Jan 28, 2004)

Dwyane Wade is a better dunker than Melo and way more athletic. He kind of reminds me of MJ when he was younger. Wade and MJ are both fearless when attacking the hoop. The only similarity Melo has with Jordan is the shoes.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shanghai Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> No, it's unfair to compare Wade's postseason high against Carmello's since Carmello was out quickly in the 1rst round. So I compared their regular season high.


Quit trying to twist the stats so they favor your weak argument. Wade's fourth playoff game he got 10 asts. Both Melo and Wade played in 4 playoff games. 


Give wade 5 shots more per game and 2 more minutes on average and this isn't even a contest.


> Knicksbiggestfan, I never once said that Kwame right now is better than Gasol. I said that he has the potential to end up being better and that I would take him on my team for defense and potential alone.


You have no clue what defense means if you want Kwame to take the place of Gasol on defense.

Yes Kwame, and his monster .7 blocks in the east while averaging 30 minutes is far greater than
Gasols' 1.7 blocks while averaging 31 minutes in the West.

Pau is only two years older yet somehow he has less potential?



> Some people would agree with me on that,


Some people think Alvin Williams is going to the hall of fame, others think the moon landing was faked. Make up any silly theory and you'll always have someone to back it up.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b><< SkipToMyLou >></b>!
> Dwyane Wade is a better dunker than Melo and way more athletic. He kind of reminds me of MJ when he was younger. Wade and MJ are both fearless when attacking the hoop. The only similarity Melo has with Jordan is the shoes.


well, this argument should officially end all debate regarding wade and melo. it is striking in its clarity and persuasion. i can't believe i used to think melo was better. thanks for allowing me to see the light.


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## SKiP (Jan 28, 2004)

I'm glad you finally agree that Wade is better than Melo. Maybe others will see the light from my post as well.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>xela</b>!
> John the Cool Kid is turning into BigAmare in terms of Kirk Hinrich bias . . . Kirk is good, but Dwayne Wade is waaaaaaaaaaay better. Do you really think a 23 year old rookie that averages 35 minutes per game and shoots below forty percent will improve that much?


Quite simply, yes. And that "bias" is the same bias that you would have seen out of me about Ron Artest before he got traded from the Bulls. People thought the same thing about him, just a good player getting heavy minutes on a bad team. So I'm not sure if "bias" is the right word if you're not wrong. 



> Originally posted by <b>xela</b>!
> Sure Dwayne averages just as many minutes, but keep in mind he played two less years of college ball, so he is less of a finished product. I see Kirk as being a 16 ppg 8 apg type player, and he might make one or two all star games.


16 points and 8 assists is fair, I'd probably say around the same thing. Maybe 17 points, 9 assists and 4 rebounds. The thing is, he is a great defender on top of it. Thats something that doesnt show in the stats. 

I see Wade topping out at about 23 points, 5 assists and 4-5 rebounds if he moves over to the off guard. Thats not bad at all, but its not _way_ better than Hinrich like you claim, especially when you factor in the defense. 



> Originally posted by <b>xela</b>!
> You can say that Kirk doesn't get open looks, so that makes his FG% suffer. I agree, but if you put Dwayne on the Bulls then I bet he would score twenty a night this past year on about 43% shooting.


I agree. Right now, Wade is simply a much better, and much more efficient scorer. He always will be most likely. Thats not to say who is the better shooter though, Hinrich shot 39% from three point land and 80% from the free throw line. For a rookie, thats the makings of a great shooter. He just needs to learn to pick his spots better, and that will weigh heavy on his field goal percentage. 



> Originally posted by <b>xela</b>!
> Dwayne has a higher floor and ceiling then Kirk. He is and (barring serious injury) always will be the better player.


I disagree. I'm not sure what you're basing it on. They are both very comparable athletes, they were both the top two in the Chicago draft camp or whatever. Kirk is the better defender based on his athletic ability and his great instincts and anticipation. Kirk is the better passer and distributor, and Wade is the better scorer. They are both good rebounding guards. I dont really see what makes Wade _way_ better than Hinrich unless you bring in the team argument, in which case I disagree heavily. 



> Originally posted by <b>xela</b>!
> But Melo will be a better scorer and rebounder, which in my mind will outweigh his defensive deficiencies.


I agree. Although I wouldnt start putting Wade on the defensive team yet, if he moves over to the off guard he may struggle to deal with being undersized for a 2. 

I've also seen Melo play determined defense before, On Kobe Bryant no less. He looked very determined, like the coach told him his only job was to keep Kobe from scoring. On that game, Kobe only had one transition three pointer in the final minutes of a close game while Melo was on him. Its the flashes. Melo can be a good defender, and at the SF his athleticism is fine. Its up to Melo though.


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

Carmelo was supposed to be a point-forward, but he seems like a pretty normal SF. He's got some outside shooting, inside-scoring, some athleticism, and some strength/girth. A little SG/PF but a lot of SF.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>jokeaward</b>!
> Carmelo was supposed to be a point-forward, but he seems like a pretty normal SF. He's got some outside shooting, inside-scoring, some athleticism, and some strength/girth. A little SG/PF but a lot of SF.


melo may not be a point forward in the mold of an antoine walker, but his passing ability is pretty underrated. just because his apg was fairly low doesn't necessarily mean he can't pass. his apg will increase as his experience does.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

I was just thinking, I would probably rather have Wade in the future, because I don't believe either one is a real franchise player, but I think Wade is and will continue to be a better complimentary player.


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## alex (Jan 7, 2003)

"agree. Although I wouldnt start putting Wade on the defensive team yet, if he moves over to the off guard he may struggle to deal with being undersized for a 2. " - John the Cool Kid

Keep in mind that Dwayne Wade has a 6'11" wingspan, plus he was measured at 6'4 3/4" at the Chicago Pre-Draft camp. With his long wings and terrific athleticism, he plays like he is about 6'7". 

I think that Dwayne has the tools (i.e. physical attributes) to be a terrific defender (maybe even better then Hinrich). He has, among other things, long arms, great quickness, great athleticism, good anticipation; all he needs to be is extremely determined. 

John the Cool Kid- you might have said that Ron Artest mighta been a great player one day, and that's why you say Kirk will be one too . . . BUT he went to college for just two years (much like Dwayne) and was pretty raw (at least according to the scouting reports that I read and the few times I saw the Bulls play). Artest had tons of room to improve, while I think Kirk won't get that much better, about 14-16 ppg 7-8.5 apg 2 spg 3 rpg.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> melo may not be a point forward in the mold of an antoine walker, but his passing ability is pretty underrated. just because his apg was fairly low doesn't necessarily mean he can't pass. his apg will increase as his experience does.


I disagree, I think his passing ability is pretty poor, and he doesn't seem to have the mentality to pass the ball for the best shot, I don't understand his numbers, especially for a guy who gets so many touches and plays for denver.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> I disagree, I think his passing ability is pretty poor, and he doesn't seem to have the mentality to pass the ball for the best shot, I don't understand his numbers, especially for a guy who gets so many touches and plays for denver.


how many starting SF's in the league average more assists per game than melo, though? not many. he averaged 2.8 apg in his rookie year. that isn't a bad average by any stretch of the imagination. he's a 19 year old kid, one year removed from college. he's still learning the game. obviously, he's no lebron james when it comes to passing, but that's not his game either. 

a good example is ron artest. he's never been regarded as a tremendous passer, yet he's improved tremendously in that area, and it has shown in his apg. i don't see why carmelo can't do the same, especially since he still has a lot of time left in the league.


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> You have no clue what defense means if you want Kwame to take the place of Gasol on defense.
> ...


Um, Kwame is a much better defender than Gasol. I don't know what world you live in, but Kwame is one of the better post defenders in the league. He gives all the best big man troubles. Blocks isn't everything you fool, just like for a guard getting steals doesn't make you a great defender. Pau is only two years older, yes, that 2 years is huge, and I think Kwame has always had more potential. He's bigger, quicker, and has nowhere near maxed out his abilities while I doubt Gasol gets much better than he is now.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> I was just thinking, I would probably rather have Wade in the future, because I don't believe either one is a real franchise player, but I think Wade is and will continue to be a better complimentary player.


Thats why I value Hinrich over Wade. I value great defense and great passing over great scoring out of a complimentary player.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Thats why I value Hinrich over Wade. I value great defense and great passing over great scoring out of a complimentary player.


I can see that argument. I think both of those guys have solid all-around games, with Wade having more of an emphasis on scoring and Hinrich more on defense and passing. I think between those two, it comes down to team needs.

Wade would be a great second scorer to have, because he has an all-around game to support it. Hinrich is going to be a great point guard. I like them both a lot.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>alex</b>!
> John the Cool Kid- you might have said that Ron Artest mighta been a great player one day, and that's why you say Kirk will be one too . . . BUT he went to college for just two years (much like Dwayne) and was pretty raw (at least according to the scouting reports that I read and the few times I saw the Bulls play). Artest had tons of room to improve, while I think Kirk won't get that much better, about 14-16 ppg 7-8.5 apg 2 spg 3 rpg.


Artest was raw offensively, and so is Hinrich. The constant in both of them is defense that opposing coaches throughout the year said would land them a 1st team defense award one day. On top of the defense, Hinrich is a very good passer and a very good shooter. He just needs to work on his inbetween game, and he has one of the best work ethics I've seen in awhile.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> I can see that argument. I think both of those guys have solid all-around games, with Wade having more of an emphasis on scoring and Hinrich more on defense and passing. *I think between those two, it comes down to team needs.*
> 
> Wade would be a great second scorer to have, because he has an all-around game to support it. Hinrich is going to be a great point guard. I like them both a lot.


I agree, especially the bolded part.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

Right now Rick Carlisle is putting Ron Artest on Wade, that says a lot...


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

Wade is having a great game so far.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

Yeah, great game, with Artest on him, says a lot don't ya thinK? :yes:


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

so? carmelo destroyed artest last time they met up.

29 points, 8 boards on 13-26 shooting.

artest has also gone on record as saying that carmelo is the toughest person he's had to defend other than paul pierce.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> so? carmelo destroyed artest last time they met up.
> 
> 29 points, 8 boards on 13-26 shooting.
> ...


You're not watching the game are you?


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>gian</b>!
> 
> 
> You're not watching the game are you?


yes, i am. wade is having an excellent 4th quarter. he's an excellent player. i never said he wasn't. but you've brought up the fact that artest is guarding him in 2 different posts now, so i thought i'd point out that carmelo fared well against him too.

this is, after all, a carmelo vs wade thread. no?


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> I can see that argument. I think both of those guys have solid all-around games, with Wade having more of an emphasis on scoring and Hinrich more on defense and passing. I think between those two, it comes down to team needs.
> ...


I can see that argument as well, that's why I don't think it's fair at all to say that John the Cool Kid has a bias with Kirk Hinrich like BigAmare does with Amare Stoudemire. I don't agree with the argument, but that's my opinion and I can definitely see where he's coming from.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> yes, i am. wade is having an excellent 4th quarter. he's an excellent player. i never said he wasn't. but you've brought up the fact that artest is guarding him in 2 different posts now, so i thought i'd point out that carmelo fared well against him too.
> ...


 yeah I guess, but hey Dwyane's a guard. Sorry I was too caught up in the game.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Dwyane Wade showed tonight he is going to be a superstar


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Shanghai Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Um, Kwame is a much better defender than Gasol. I don't know what world you live in, but Kwame is one of the better post defenders in the league. He gives all the best big man troubles. Blocks isn't everything you fool, just like for a guard getting steals doesn't make you a great defender. Pau is only two years older, yes, that 2 years is huge, and I think Kwame has always had more potential. He's bigger, quicker, and has nowhere near maxed out his abilities while I doubt Gasol gets much better than he is now.


He's 1 inch shorter, the same weight, and to say he's the one of the best post defenders in the league shows you have no clue whatsoever.


He got lit up by nearly every PF this year, a random sampel of game logs reveals that Jamison, Odom, Shareef, hell nearly everyone.

Furthermore whenever he and Pau met pau always dropped around 17, than 18 points on him.

The first time pau held his big strong body to 1-11,

the second time pau played 29 minutes on an injured foot and still dropped 18.

If you can't hold Jamison below 50% or even Kurt Thomas for that matter you just aren't one of the leagues best post defenders. Hilarious that you would think otherwise.


Anyway this thread is about how much Dwade rocks and the sick move he put on Al harrington .


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>spriggan9</b>!
> 
> 
> how many starting SF's in the league average more assists per game than melo, though? not many. he averaged 2.8 apg in his rookie year. that isn't a bad average by any stretch of the imagination. he's a 19 year old kid, one year removed from college. he's still learning the game. obviously, he's no lebron james when it comes to passing, but that's not his game either.
> ...



A counted about 10 , but my contention was not they could or couldn't pass, but that he never chose to. I don't think he'll ever be the type of player who looks for the best shot for his team, or rather he'll be the type of player who thinks the team's best shot is the one he's taking.


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> He's 1 inch shorter, the same weight, and to say he's the one of the best post defenders in the league shows you have no clue whatsoever.
> ...


Kwame is 7'0 260. Kwame is a top 10 post defender in the league. You have nothing to say to this except "no he isn't, and your a fool for suggesting it". Your living in a world where your opinion is fact. Every player in the league has been lit up a few games in a season, yet you don't seem to want to point out games where Kwame showed how good he is defensively. Nobody is saying that Kwame is an offensive powerhouse, he had some real bad games this year. I just take Kwame because I think he's going to end up being better. But in your fantasy world, anything you seem to think is a fact. 

He got lit up by nearly every PF? Are you on crack? Did you even know that Jared Jeffries played tons of minutes at PF this year and even started some games? Have you even seen any Wizards games? Did you know that Kwame came off the bench for some games? Why would Kwame be guarding Jamison? Why doesn't your random check show him forcing Duncan into 6 turnovers? Or shutting down Chris Webber and Jermaine O Neal?


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

*edited: Too many insults to go through and edit each one. You can write a new post that's civil*


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

Judging on their games, Melo will be nearly a double double player (24 & 9) and Wade will be more well rounded (23, 5 & 5). It's obvious Wade has passing over Melo, and Melo has rebounding over him since they are both great scorers. In other words, I can't distinguish.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John The Cool Kid</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats why I value Hinrich over Wade. I value great defense and great passing over great scoring out of a complimentary player.


I'd argue that Wade defense is on par with Heinrich's and that his passing has greatly improved.

I'm more than willing to except Heinrich as the second best in a debate provided someone can explain his awful FG%. Someone who does that well in the predraft camp shouldn't have such a low FG% unless they have a huge shooting deficency.


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> *edited*


Ok guy, let's review your post. Kwame is a good defender in the post, consistently. Ask any Wizard fan who has watched the games and they will tell you this. He's about as consistent as a post defender as Kobe is as a guard defender, and Kobe made the All-NBA defensive team. Kwame averaged 30 minutes a game, but he played much bigger minutes in the second half of the season. In the first half he was being pulled in and out of the line-up, he was benched for a couple of weeks. He didn't get consistent enough minutes to be considered anything great in the early points of the season. 

Kwame played minutes at Center. He started a few games at center, but he played lots of center mainly while Jared Jeffries was on the floor. This is something you wouldn't know by looking at the gamelogs, which your basing your whole arguments on. Kwame would never be guarding Jamison, Jamison is not a PF and even if he was he would be guarded by Jeffries who would be coming off the bench as would Jamison. Kwame never guarded Odom either. 

Did you watch the Washington/Indiana games? I have them on tape. Jermaine didn't do crap against Kwame. Kwame was scoring in the post on Jermaine, but Jermaine maybe scored once in the post on Kwame. 

Webber got his points on JUMPSHOTS. He got a few turnovers when trying to post up Kwame.

Stats don't tell everything. Duncan had a tough time getting posistion on Kwame because Kwame was bothering him by hitting the ball. Duncan did make Kwame look like a fool once or twice, but Kwame did a much better job on Duncan that most guys do. Are you smart enough to realize that the traveling calls were caused by good defense? 

Gamelogs don't tell the whole story. You actually have to watch the games. I watched 77-78 of the Wizards games this year. Wizards fans who have seen these games will back me up it. Your just looking at the game-logs and that tells you nothing about defense. The Wizards play alot of different line-ups, with Kwame at Center, PF, and he's even played minutes at SF before. *edited*


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> A counted about 10 , but my contention was not they could or couldn't pass, but that he never chose to. I don't think he'll ever be the type of player who looks for the best shot for his team, or rather he'll be the type of player who thinks the team's best shot is the one he's taking.


i agree with you... so far. but i think that's just lack of experience and immaturity on melo's part. he's only 19, after all. most people seem to think that carmelo simply doesn't have passing skills. that is untrue. you could have magic's passing talent and still only average 3 assists a game if you don't have the right mentality.

i expect carmelo's apg to slowly go up as his maturity and experience does.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

*cough*


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

greatest bump ever


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

See, this is why I try to put 10 day limits on my polls. If a thread gets bumped down the line you want to see what people are thinking at the time, don't want people sneaking in and upseting the results.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

WTF? Nevus changed his name to Overdog at one point? Where the hell have I been?


Anyway the answer is Carmelo.


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## mr hoopster (Dec 24, 2004)

D.Wade.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

* important lines from the beginning of the thread *



> I'm surprised at the even results of this poll. I like Wade more, but I doubt he will ever be better than Melo barring any major injuries. Wade is just Francis II, but Anthony is possibly a future NBA legend. Yeah he choked in the playoffs, but he's still a teen. Just imagine what Anthony will be putting up in his prime.





> I see Wade topping out at about 23 points, 5 assists and 4-5 rebounds if he moves over to the off guard. Thats not bad at all, but its not way better than Hinrich like you claim, especially when you factor in the defense.





> Thats why I value Hinrich over Wade. I value great defense and great passing over great scoring out of a complimentary player.





> Wade's season high was 8, Carmello's was 9.
> Their both going to be good, I think we'll find out whose going to be better by seeing who improves the most next year.





> So my projected stats:
> Anthony: 23 pts, 7 rebs, 4 ast per game
> Wade: 20 pts, 5 rebs, 7 ast per game





> The distance in my mind between Melo and Wade is the same distance between Wade and Hinrich in other peoples mind.





> Wade has proven nothing siginificant. I haven't seen him carrying his team or anything like Baron Davis was doing with New Orleans. His playoff averages are decent, nothing spectacular. He had lots of talent around him in the same way that Carmello had talent around him. The Heat beat a frictional New Orleans team that was missing an all-star player.


No offense to anyone, just some statements.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

*Yearly BUMP* -- just because there's another thread about it.


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## MRedd22 (Jun 10, 2006)

sloth said:


> Wade



Thought you wouldve said Ben Gordon


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## LameR (Jan 4, 2004)

Didn't the most recent Wade v. LeBron v. Anthony poll we had on here have Wade coming out in front (or at least close to it)? I don't think it's that definitive that LeBron will be head and shoulders greater than either of these guys. That's not to say he won't have the opportunity, because the sky really is the limit for him. Just depends on how hard he works, and who ends up surrounding him.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

MRedd22 said:


> Thought you wouldve said Ben Gordon


It's 'cause Ben Gordon wasn't drafted yet. :biggrin:


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