# Bill Simmons: Reggie was no superstar



## StephenJackson (Oct 28, 2004)

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/cowbell/blog

This article really ticked me off, esepcially this line:



> Does that mean he wasn't a great player? Of course not. Like Worthy, McHale, Dumars, DJ, Drexler, Pippen, Dominique and even Stockton, he cracked that class of "Guys Who Had Great Careers & Weren't Quite Franchise Players."


What a horrible article. How could anybody with any sports knowledge say that Reggie wasn't a franchise player???? What a joke.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

StephenJackson said:


> http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/cowbell/blog
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't say this often but I hope that guy loses his job and gets his *** kicked by somebody.

The whole article is a joke.

As the old man from the Simpsons said to Apu.

" You owe me 5 minutes of my life that I will never get again"


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## Gonzo (Oct 14, 2004)

That is one of the worst articles I've seen in a while... 

Reggie not a franchise player? You've got to be kidding me. He IS (or was) the Pacers.


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

StephenJackson said:


> What a horrible article. How could anybody with any sports knowledge say that Reggie wasn't a franchise player???? What a joke.


That does seem pretty harsh. Reggie was the best Pacers ever, led us to the Finals and numerous EC Finals appearences, and on top of that, was a great leader.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

I don't disagree with everything Bill Simmons said in that article, but it's pretty obvious that Reggie was the Pacers' franchise player for over a decade.

No reason to get upset about this, Simmons is a Celtics homer so you can expect him to tear down the Pacers when we're playing them in the playoffs. If Reggie has another great game against the Celtics then we'll be reading about how Antoine Walker has had a better career than Reggie. No one should care whether or not Simmons likes our team.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Does that mean he wasn't a great player? Of course not. Like Worthy, McHale, Dumars, DJ, Drexler, Pippen, Dominique and even Stockton, he cracked that class of "Guys Who Had Great Careers & Weren't Quite Franchise Players."


Reggie was (is) a great player. But he's no superstar. The fact that someone would say Reggi is "Indiana's franchise player" just dimineshes Reggie, IMHO...

Reggie's great. Love him. But let's face it: he was never NBA-top 10 during his career... How many All-Nba teams does he have? Was he consistently better than his competition? 

The fact that Reggie is talked about in the same sentence as Worthy, Kevin, Nique and others is compliment enough...


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## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

The first thing that comes to my mind when i here indiana pacers is reggie miller. How can you say he isnt a franchise player unless the pacers arent a franchise..... which they are...


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

sheefo13 said:


> The first thing that comes to my mind when i here indiana pacers is reggie miller. How can you say he isnt a franchise player unless the pacers arent a franchise..... which they are...


Well, that's the thing, really... Reggie IS Indiana's franchise player, and probably the most recognizeable (sp?) Pacer player ever (Les Daniels not included)...

But the simple fact is that THIS franchise player was not at par with OTHER franchise players...

Reggie is great, but he is, in the best case scenario, in the bottom dozen of the NBA All-time 50 greatest... Not much for a franchise player, IMHO...

That's all i'm saying...


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## HippieHair33 (Jul 16, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Well, that's the thing, really... Reggie IS Indiana's franchise player, and probably the most recognizeable (sp?) Pacer player ever (Les Daniels not included)...
> 
> But the simple fact is that THIS franchise player was not at par with OTHER franchise players...
> 
> ...


how can you say that?? the only reason reggie is always looked down upon is michael jordon. reggie wasn't quite as good as mj, that's a fact, but if it wasnt for mj, reggie'd be considered the best sg of the 90s and indy would have won atleast 3 championships back then. i disagree with your statements completely.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Indy would have won at least 3 championships? They lost to the Bulls one year ('98) in which they truly looked like a title contender.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

I'm more disturbed that he put John Stockton, one of the best PG's in NBA history and one that holds the NBA record for assists and steals in that category as well, that alone speaks volumes about this article. :eek8:


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

whiterhino said:


> I'm more disturbed that he put John Stockton, one of the best PG's in NBA history and one that holds the NBA record for assists and steals in that category as well, that alone speaks volumes about this article. :eek8:


 they built a statue after the man for goodness sakes. I'm sure they will do the same for Reggie.


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## thegza (Feb 18, 2003)

One of the most brutal articles I've heard in a while, and I read this a couple of days ago.

Reggie Miller was never a 'franchise' player to me either, but, he's the 2nd leading scorer in playoff history, right?



> how can you say that?? the only reason reggie is always looked down upon is michael jordon. reggie wasn't quite as good as mj, that's a fact, but if it wasnt for mj, reggie'd be considered the best sg of the 90s and indy would have won atleast 3 championships back then. i disagree with your statements completely.


Exactly. The guy's obviously a homer, but I'm willing to bet his own Knicks fans would put down Reggie as one of the best SG's of the 90's.

Psh.


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## StephenJackson (Oct 28, 2004)

theLegend said:


> Reggie Miller was never a 'franchise' player to me either, but, he's the 2nd leading scorer in playoff history, right?


Still though, how can you say that he was never a franchise player? He put the Pacers on the map. He was and always will be the greatest Pacer to play in Indiana. He IS the Pacers.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> Reggie was (is) a great player. But he's no superstar. The fact that someone would say Reggi is "Indiana's franchise player" just dimineshes Reggie, IMHO...
> 
> Reggie's great. Love him. But let's face it: he was never NBA-top 10 during his career... How many All-Nba teams does he have? Was he consistently better than his competition?
> 
> The fact that Reggie is talked about in the same sentence as Worthy, Kevin, Nique and others is compliment enough...


Never top 10? Never better than the competition? Ridiculous.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> Well, that's the thing, really... Reggie IS Indiana's franchise player, and probably the most recognizeable (sp?) Pacer player ever (Les Daniels not included)...
> 
> But the simple fact is that THIS franchise player was not at par with OTHER franchise players...
> 
> ...



Hes top 50 in many of the new lists I've read. How is being a top 50 alltime not worthy of being a great franchise player? Or leading his team to a 60+ win season and going to the Finals, and taking the Lakers for everything they had?
Its obvious you have no love for Reggie. But whatever, not a problem.


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## StephenJackson (Oct 28, 2004)

R-Star said:


> Never top 10? Never better than the competition? Ridiculous.



More than rediculous in my opinion. Look at him over the last 2 playoff games. He's 39...and in these games he's shown that he's STILL capable of being better than the competition.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

R-Star said:


> Hes top 50 in many of the new lists I've read. How is being a top 50 alltime not worthy of being a great franchise player? Or leading his team to a 60+ win season and going to the Finals, and taking the Lakers for everything they had?
> Its obvious you have no love for Reggie. But whatever, not a problem.


Come on, R-Star, is that all you can come up with?

Was Pippen a "franchise player"? No. was he a top 50? yes.
Was Worthy a "franchise player"? No. was he a top 50? yes.
Was McHale a "franchise player"? No. was he a top 50? yes.
Was Dave Debusschere a "franchise player"? No. was he a top 50? yes.
Was Sam Jones a "franchise player"? No. was he a top 50? yes.
Was Robert Parish a "franchise player"? No. was he a top 50? yes.

Being a great player does not equal being a franchise player.
Reggie was a great player. I've states numerous times that i love his game.
Still, i am not blind to the fact that he was in the 3rd echelon of players in his era: 1st - superstars; 2nd - perennial all-stars.

Reggie, for his career, has 2 All-Nba selections, and both times in the 3rd team. That's not overwhelming.
In fact, SGs who were ranked above him in the All-Nba teams: Jordan, Drexler, Dale Ellis, Dumars, Petrovic, Sprewell, Mitch Richmond, Penny, Rice, Iverson, Kobe, Eddie Jones, T-Mac, Ray Allen, etc., etc.

Reggie has played long and hard, and brought us numerous monstruous moments, but that doesn't change the fact that he was never top-10 NBA in any season...

Sure, you could call him "franchise player", just the same as Charlotte has Okafor, and Orlando has Howard, but that's not much...

reggie has provided me with some of the most entertaining bball moments (like the Spike Lee duel), but i won't go as far as saying Reggie was a "franchise player".

But maybe i'm misinterpreting (sp?) the notion...


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

R-Star said:


> Never top 10? Never better than the competition? Ridiculous.


Well, if you consider a guy that has 2 3rd team selections NBA Top-10, i can easily concede that Reggie was, in 2 years, All-Nba top-10.

2 Years...


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## HippieHair33 (Jul 16, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> reggie has provided me with some of the most entertaining bball moments (like the Spike Lee duel), but i won't go as far as saying Reggie was a "franchise player".
> 
> ...


at first when i saw your statements i thought that maybe you weren't a big bball fan back when reggie was in his prime but based on that statement you must have been watching his career. i don't understand how you could watch him unfold as he did and _not_ consider him a franchise player. he took an nba team, as well as the entire state of indiana and made sure that everyone who ever asked "what's a pacer?" found out what a pacer was. 

maybe it has to do with what you consider to be a "franchise player". but i certainly think that a player who brought his team from nothing into title contention, was that team's star for 18 years, and still, at the age of 39, has back to back 28+ point games after an already strenuous 82 game season just because he loves his team, knowing very well that the chances of a pacer championship are very very slim is a "franchise player". 

Reggie probably never once in his career was the best guard in the game, but consistantly for 18 seasons he has worked his *** off and led his team as best as he could and done a damn good job of it imho. 

Whether he's your idea of a "franchise player" or not, he still is the greatest three point shooter of all time and probably the best at what he does in the entire world (flopping, shooting, running w/o the ball, etc.) and will certainly be inducted into the hall of fame. 

He may not be the "ideal" franchise player but he is definately the best player to ever wear a pacer jersey and will go down in history as the guy that put the pacers, as well as indiana, on the map. 'nough said


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## StephenJackson (Oct 28, 2004)

HippieHair33 said:


> at first when i saw your statements i thought that maybe you weren't a big bball fan back when reggie was in his prime but based on that statement you must have been watching his career. i don't understand how you could watch him unfold as he did and _not_ consider him a franchise player. he took an nba team, as well as the entire state of indiana and made sure that everyone who ever asked "what's a pacer?" found out what a pacer was.
> 
> maybe it has to do with what you consider to be a "franchise player". but i certainly think that a player who brought his team from nothing into title contention, was that team's star for 18 years, and still, at the age of 39, has back to back 28+ point games after an already strenuous 82 game season just because he loves his team, knowing very well that the chances of a pacer championship are very very slim is a "franchise player".
> 
> ...


:clap:


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

HippieHair33 said:


> at first when i saw your statements i thought that maybe you weren't a big bball fan back when reggie was in his prime but based on that statement you must have been watching his career. i don't understand how you could watch him unfold as he did and _not_ consider him a franchise player. he took an nba team, as well as the entire state of indiana and made sure that everyone who ever asked "what's a pacer?" found out what a pacer was.
> 
> maybe it has to do with what you consider to be a "franchise player". but i certainly think that a player who brought his team from nothing into title contention, was that team's star for 18 years, and still, at the age of 39, has back to back 28+ point games after an already strenuous 82 game season just because he loves his team, knowing very well that the chances of a pacer championship are very very slim is a "franchise player".
> 
> ...


Good post. :greatjob: 

Maybe it is my "idea" of "franchise player"... Cause all you posted is true.

Reggie's great and a sure-fire ho, IMHO...


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## naptownpimp (Feb 1, 2004)

im sure this guy has written articles about how peyton manning sucks too....


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## DJMD (Nov 20, 2004)

I think this proves how underrated Reggie has been throughout his career. He is skinny guy who took punishment and gave just as much through his scoring. People compare other guards to him, ie. Rip, that should show you what kind of skill and game he has. Reggie will be forever remembered as the first great Pacer.

It's been my pleasure to have watched him grow all the way through college and as a pro. (I know that shows how old I am


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## clownskull (Jun 21, 2002)

alot of the stuff like whether or not he was on the 1st,2nd,3rd string all nba is a bunch of garbage anyway. much of the time it is a popularity contest. reggie was far better than several guys listed like dale ellis or spreewell, richmond and such. just because those guys were liked by the writers more does not mean they were more effective. those selections for the all nba don't really bother me.
franchise player? definately, superstar definately. this article is by a guy who just wants to get his name in the mix and get noticed for taking a stance, even if it is a bunch of b.s. good and very good players don't go to the hall of fame and reggie will.-- in about 5 years. count on it.


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## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

I'm just gonna pretend i never saw this thread.....


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## The Future7 (Feb 24, 2005)

This guy just wants attention. Im sure other reporters read this and laughed. Reggie basically was the Pacers and they surrounded him with good talent.


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