# Thanks Bulls/Offseason Thread



## taco_daddy (Jun 13, 2004)

for a great season. You have exceeded my expectations in many areas so I can't be disappointed.

Here is what I realistically expected from you guys verses what you actually accomplished:
*Expected Wins:* 50 games (if the Bulls zoned out and played out of their minds and overachieved)
*Actual Wins:* 62 games

*Expected Ranking:* 3rd or 4th in the East
*Actual Ranking:* #1 in the East, and #1 overall

*Expected Playoff Performance:* ECF exit (This is the only thing the Bulls didn't surprise me with. I figured if the Bulls ranked high enough and avoided the really good teams in the playoffs they could make it to the ECF)
*Actual Playoff Performance:* ECF exit

*Expected Awards:* None
*Actual Awards:* MVP, Coach of the Year, Executive of the Year (shared with Pat Riley/Miami Heat)​
As anyone can see, the Bulls have shattered almost every expectation I had of them. Great job!

Now if we can just add some scoring around Rose we could win it all. It would be great if we could get Howard, although I'd hate to lose Noah. We need to replace Bogans. I don't know about Boozer. Boozer is capable of great games, but he's injury prone and might be out 30 games if trips getting out of bed. I hope this unexpected miracle team whets Reinsdorf's appetite for another championship team. In the East, I don't see any other teams that will really compete with us other than Miami. So it looks like we'll be meeting Miami in the ECF again in the future. Hopefully next time we have some help.

P.S.: It's not too early to start offseason talk, we couldn't possibly have more than 11 games left in this season. Realistically, we probably have 3 games left in this season.


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## Juggernaut (Jul 20, 2010)

Come on man, it's too soon for this. You're only down 2-1. I hope the Bulls don't have the same mentality you do right now.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

I'm sure this thread is going to rub some people the wrong way, but it's really important to look at what we can do to improve our roster, even if the season isn't over, it's still evident that our roster needs improvement. That's true of practically any team, even the team that might win the championship.

I think we have to look to get an effective second scoring option. And truthfully, I don't think somebody like Mayo cuts it. Yeah, it'd be nice, but I think we would need a scorer even more proven than Mayo. 

If you could get Howard, you get him and you trade Noah. No hesitation.

That being said, Howard has already (apparently) made it clear that it's either New York or L.A., if you believe the reports.

So at this point, the question becomes...what is out there? As a legitimate second option?


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

Juggernaut said:


> Come on man, it's too soon for this. You're only down 2-1. I hope the Bulls don't have the same mentality you do right now.


Ignore the timing of this thread for a moment (I know that's hard, considering we just lost), but if you ignore that, and just look at the situation. I think it's at least clear that the roster needs improvement. 

Even if this team won the title, this roster would need to be improved upon, if you believe the conventional wisdom that the Heat are only going to get better this offseason. 

It's still a relevant topic.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I can't give up hope just yet, the Bulls are still one Derrick Rose great game and if we lose that game then I say its over. Derrick has to shoot like 30 times next game, I don't care if he hits only 12 of those shots but he needs to play extremely aggressive because this offense that thibs is just throwing out there is not cutting it.


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## taco_daddy (Jun 13, 2004)

Pay Ton said:


> it's really important to look at what we can do to improve our roster, even if the season isn't over, it's still evident that our roster needs improvement. That's true of practically any team, even the team that might win the championship.


Basically. I'd hate for Howard to go to NY because that would create another tough team to beat in the East. However, it would weaken Orlando. Mayo would be an improvement over Bogans. Question is, would he mess up the team chemistry? I think our team is fine defensively, but it's too easy to shut down Rose and by virtue shut down the whole team offensively.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Its only halfway through the series! Plenty of ball to be played yet before you concede defeat!

Still - your a 2 guard away from being a really complete team. Once you have another shot creator in that backcourt you'll be sweet.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

As long as we don't get stuck in playoff limbo for the decade, I'll be fine. That's why I feel some changes need to be made.

I don't want to be the "shoulda, coulda, woulda" team of the Eastern Conference like the Knicks and Pacers of the 90's, or the Kings, Blazers and Mavs of the early millennium. Deep and proven squads that almost always lost to more star studded teams.

We, obviously, have a star. I feel like we need more. Now more than ever that's apparent, even if we (somehow) win this series.


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## Juggernaut (Jul 20, 2010)

*Re: Thanks Bulls/Offseason Thread (our latest "The Season is a wash!" thread ever)*

If you could get Howard by trading Noah+anyone not named Rose (though, try to keep either noah or deng), then this team becomes better than the Heat team this year. Plus you'd still have Gibson/Boozer.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Thanks Bulls/Offseason Thread (our latest "The Season is a wash!" thread ever)*



Juggernaut said:


> If you could get Howard by trading Noah+anyone not named Rose (though, try to keep either noah or deng), then this team becomes better than the Heat team this year. Plus you'd still have Gibson/Boozer.


Howard is a stretch, if what we're hearing about Knicks/Lakers is true.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Thanks Bulls/Offseason Thread (our latest "The Season is a wash!" thread ever)*

too soon for this thread, its 2-1, the bulls win the next game and its a 3 game series with the bulls having homecourt.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: Thanks Bulls/Offseason Thread (our latest "The Season is a wash!" thread ever)*



Da Grinch said:


> too soon for this thread, its 2-1, the bulls win the next game and its a 3 game series with the bulls having homecourt.


Yep. 

there will be a win on Tuesday by the bulls.


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## taco_daddy (Jun 13, 2004)

Whoever edited my thread and said "The Season is a wash!" is full of B.S. I thanked the team and said they vastly exceeded my expectations. How the hell is that a wash? Please explain that stupidity to me!

Our season was far from a wash and was a huge stepping stone towards a championship. One way or the other I guarantee you that Rose has gained incredible experience playing in his first ECF game. Guess what, it comes only 3 years after he was in the league. Can we say that about Jordan? Some of you simply lack realism at this point!


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

taco_daddy said:


> Whoever edited my thread and said "The Season is a wash!" is full of B.S. I thanked the team and said they vastly exceeded my expectations. How the hell is that a wash? Please explain that stupidity to me!
> 
> Our season was far from a wash and was a huge stepping stone towards a championship. One way or the other I guarantee you that Rose has gained incredible experience playing in his first ECF game. Guess what, it comes only 3 years after he was in the league. Can we say that about Jordan? Some of you simply lack realism at this point!



I'm sure it was edited (though not by me) because you're contending the season is over.

This thread is pathetically early. One W on Tuesday and the Bulls reclaim home court advantage.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

taco_daddy said:


> Whoever edited my thread and said "The Season is a wash!" is full of B.S. I thanked the team and said they vastly exceeded my expectations. How the hell is that a wash? Please explain that stupidity to me!
> 
> Our season was far from a wash and was a huge stepping stone towards a championship. One way or the other I guarantee you that Rose has gained incredible experience playing in his first ECF game. Guess what, it comes only 3 years after he was in the league. Can we say that about Jordan? Some of you simply lack realism at this point!


Ha, Taco... that was me... I only did it because in the eleven years (yikes) or so that I've been here we always seemed to have a thread pop up in November or December declaring that the season was over. This is the farthest we've been since the advent of bbf.com so I was, for whatever reason, amused at the thought of a "season is a wash!" thread this late in May.... 

I can change it back if you'd like me to... it was only meant as a lighthearted reminder that just like those threads in previous (mostly crappy) years, the season isn't over yet.


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## sMaK (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Thanks Bulls/Offseason Thread (our latest "The Season is a wash!" thread ever)*

They should go hard after Rudy Gay if its true he's on the block


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

taco_daddy said:


> Whoever edited my thread and said "The Season is a wash!" is full of B.S. I thanked the team and said they vastly exceeded my expectations. How the hell is that a wash? Please explain that stupidity to me!
> 
> Our season was far from a wash and was a huge stepping stone towards a championship. One way or the other I guarantee you that Rose has gained incredible experience playing in his first ECF game. Guess what, it comes only 3 years after he was in the league. Can we say that about Jordan? Some of you simply lack realism at this point!


Right on, Taco.

I'm not pining for a superstar. Derrick still has some growing up to do. He was clearly frustrated last night. He needs to work through this, along with his team. They sure as hell can do it, even this time around. I really enjoyed the game last night, and look forward to a good battle this Tuesday. Miami will be looking for blood. 

My mantra is: "Discipline, discipline, discipline" That's going to be the key to victory. 

Go Bulls!


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Thanks Bulls/Offseason Thread (our latest "The Season is a wash!" thread ever)*

Everyone knew that we needed some scoring in a trade, the Bulls in ability or even lack of wanting to make a trade for a scorer really is bitting us in the ass. Even an OJ Mayo off the bench would have helped in this series but oh well, it was obvious what our weakness is. On a bright spot Taj Gibson's trade stock has gone way up! 

But knowing the Bulls they will keep this team the exact same until Rose turns 30.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Thanks Bulls/Offseason Thread (our latest "The Season is a wash!" thread ever)*



thebizkit69u said:


> Everyone knew that we needed some scoring in a trade, the Bulls in ability or even lack of wanting to make a trade for a scorer really is bitting us in the ass. Even an OJ Mayo off the bench would have helped in this series but oh well, it was obvious what our weakness is. On a bright spot Taj Gibson's trade stock has gone way up!
> 
> *But knowing the Bulls they will keep this team the exact same until Rose turns 30.*


I don't get the last part... we have had significant roster turnover (for better or worse) from year to year for the last 12 years... that is going to stop all of the sudden so that we can stand still?


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Thanks Bulls/Offseason Thread (our latest "The Season is a wash!" thread ever)*



Dornado said:


> I don't get the last part... we have had significant roster turnover (for better or worse) from year to year for the last 12 years... that is going to stop all of the sudden so that we can stand still?


Take into account the new CBA which IMO will probably make signings harder, especially if they go for a hard cap. Garpax did not pull a trigger on trading TTaj or Asik guys who are decent but still bench players, I can't imagine him making Deng or Noah available. 

Unless a star player makes it clear that they wan't to play for the Bulls I have no confidence in Garpax MAKING a trade for a game changer. I hope I'm wrong but I have seen this front office stumble around for a decade to know better, heck they stumbled unto success this year so maybe they will do it again.

I hope so.


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## taco_daddy (Jun 13, 2004)

Dornado said:


> I was, for whatever reason, amused at the thought of a "season is a wash!" thread this late in May....
> 
> I can change it back if you'd like me to... it was only meant as a lighthearted reminder that just like those threads in previous (mostly crappy) years, the season isn't over yet.


Okay, since it was a lighthearted statement I can calm down. But yes, please change it back. I hardly think this amazing season was a wash nor was I trying to say that. We should all be proud and thankful as well as hopeful for the future of this team based on the incredible progress that was made this season. This is not like '99 or '00 or '01. The Bulls are back baby. Let's keep rising to the top!


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

taco_daddy said:


> Okay, since it was a lighthearted statement I can calm down. But yes, please change it back. I hardly think this amazing season was a wash nor was I trying to say that. We should all be proud and thankful as well as hopeful for the future of this team based on the incredible progress that was made this season. This is not like '99 or '00 or '01. The Bulls are back baby. Let's keep rising to the top!


Expectations can change, even during the season. Asking for all of this to come together next year again is a lot to ask, an MVP season from Rose, a career year by Deng, the leagues best Defense, coach of the year, best record etc. If the Bulls go out to the Heat like they have in game 2 and 3 the season has been a huge disappointment.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> If the Bulls go out to the Heat like they have in game 2 and 3 the season has been a huge disappointment.



I would find that particular loss to be hugely disappointing, but that's not the same thing as saying the season amounts to a huge disappointment (at least, if I take your meaning to be that "disappointment" more or less means "failure"). There is no rational argument that this season is anything other than a surprising success. The extent of that success remains to be seen, though.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> I would find that particular loss to be hugely disappointing, but that's not the same thing as saying the season amounts to a huge disappointment (at least, if I take your meaning to be that "disappointment" more or less means "failure"). There is no rational argument that this season is anything other than a surprising success. The extent of that success remains to be seen, though.


But like I said, expectations can change during a season. About 1/4 in the season we all pretty much saw that Derrick Rose was playing like an MVP, the team overcame the injuries and the team established themselves as the best defense in the NBA. By 3/4 of the season Derrick Rose was a lock for MVP and the Bulls a lock for a top seed, the expectations then went to at least an ECF appearance. They have accomplished a lot of the goals but they can't lose like this, they just can't lose a series because they can't score, at some point you expect the Bulls to have at least one game were they can overcome all of their offensive woes.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> By 3/4 of the season Derrick Rose was a lock for MVP and the Bulls a lock for a top seed, the expectations then went to at least an ECF appearance.


Then even after expectations changed, they lived up to expectations.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> Then even after expectations changed, they lived up to expectations.


But I feel that a pathetic showing ruins the season. Go down firing on all cylinders or don't show up at all. They have showed up all playoff long playing the same, like everything will just come back to normal and their defense will make up for their offense, that may work in the season but not in the playoff's. The lack of urgency and adjustments by this team is just maddening.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> But I feel that a pathetic showing ruins the season. Go down firing on all cylinders or don't show up at all. They have showed up all playoff long playing the same, like everything will just come back to normal and their defense will make up for their offense, that may work in the season but not in the playoff's. The lack of urgency and adjustments by this team is just maddening.



Let's have this discussion if they actually make a "pathetic showing." I'm doubting that outcome.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

They certainly exceeded my expectations by a long ways. I never thought this was a championship team. The last 2 games proved my point. We just got lucky we ran into scrub teams earlier in the playoffs. Rose can't do it all by himself. Boozer can't do jack...even when the #s are there, his impact is minimal due to how many times he's blocked, his lack of any moves other than a triple-fake followed by a rainbow jumper which is ineffective any time a "longer" player is guarding him, and his terrible excuse of D. We have 3 SGs that are one dimensional, so you are always sacrificing O or D at that position. 

My plan:

Trade Noah and Boozer for Howard. Trade both 1sts for Rudy Gay and play him at the 2.

Rose-Watson
Gay-Brewer-Bogans
Deng-Korver
Gibson-Thomas
Howard-Asik

That would give you 3 good defenders in the frontcourt, and 2 good dynamic scorers/athletes in the backcourt, along with a similar bench to now. Gay could slide to the 3 with Deng at the 4 at times as well. Of course this is a pipedream, but if Dwight were smart, he'd play in Chicago with an elite PG over NY and LA, who have nothing to help a stud C as much. Taj can hit the open J and play some very good D, so he's a decent 5th man for a star-studded team like this.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Howard is not coming to the Bulls, behind the scenes he said LA or NY as his proffered destinations. While I have no idea what the hell NY has to offer them, LA can package Pau and Bynum which is much better than Noah and Boozer.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

thebizkit69u said:


> Howard is not coming to the Bulls, behind the scenes he said LA or NY as his proffered destinations. While I have no idea what the hell NY has to offer them, LA can package Pau and Bynum which is much better than Noah and Boozer.


He doesn't have a say in where he goes though, if it's via a trade. Also, why in the world would HE want to go to LA? Kobe is about done. They have nothing else if they were to trade Gasol and Bynum for him. Same with NY. They play no D, and they have Amare and Carmello, and that's about it. Surely they wouldn't have much if they traded one of those 2 plus more for Dwight. As much as I hated Noah early on, I'd hate to part with him now, but I'd do it for Dwight in a heartbeat. 

So like I said before, who would YOU play with if you had your choice and you were a center like Dwight? In Chicago you have a great defensive coach, the best PG in the league, a good all around D, and solid role players. If we had Dwight instead of Noah and Boozer, then I'd say we're the odds-on favorite to win it all. I never once, even when we ended with the best record in the NBA, thought we were the favorites this year. I thought we had a chance, and we still do, but we just have too many holes on offense. Dwight and Derrick together would be virtually unstoppable in my book, along with a solid supporting cast. Similar in age too (Dwight is a little older, but he'll likely decline at an older age than Rose so it evens out most likely), so they could grow together and be a dominant duo like you see so often in other places.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

DaBabyBullz said:


> He doesn't have a say in where he goes though, if it's via a trade. Also, why in the world would HE want to go to LA? Kobe is about done. They have nothing else if they were to trade Gasol and Bynum for him. Same with NY. They play no D, and they have Amare and Carmello, and that's about it. Surely they wouldn't have much if they traded one of those 2 plus more for Dwight. As much as I hated Noah early on, I'd hate to part with him now, but I'd do it for Dwight in a heartbeat.


Just like Carmelo doesn't have a say in where he wanted to go?

Playing with Kobe is a better option than playing with Jameer Nelson and Hedo another year. 



> So like I said before, who would YOU play with if you had your choice and you were a center like Dwight? In Chicago you have a great defensive coach, the best PG in the league, a good all around D, and solid role players. If we had Dwight instead of Noah and Boozer, then I'd say we're the odds-on favorite to win it all. I never once, even when we ended with the best record in the NBA, thought we were the favorites this year. I thought we had a chance, and we still do, but we just have too many holes on offense. Dwight and Derrick together would be virtually unstoppable in my book, along with a solid supporting cast. Similar in age too (Dwight is a little older, but he'll likely decline at an older age than Rose so it evens out most likely), so they could grow together and be a dominant duo like you see so often in other places.



Every player is different, IMO Dwight has just as good a chance to win a title in LA as he would in Chicago. Maybe Dwight wants the extra perks, live in LA, build a brand who knows. But its pretty obvious that these guy's want to play where they wan't to play and usually they get it their way.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

Nowwww this thread is legit


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## SWIFTSLICK (Aug 22, 2009)

Don't really want to thank the Bulls for this embarrassing collapse. Just not enough push in the playoffs. MIAMI leads the series 3-1. The Bulls look lost and worn out. Doubt this team has the mettle to get up for Game 5. Great regular season made believers of us all. Then came the postseason doldrums. 

This is an incomplete season. MVP, Coach of the Year, Exec of the Year...mean nothing without the ring. After this series, D-ROSE deserves all the negative criticism that comes his way.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

SWIFTSLICK said:


> Don't really want to thank the Bulls for this embarrassing collapse. Just not enough push in the playoffs. MIAMI leads the series 3-1. The Bulls look lost and worn out. Doubt this team has the mettle to get up for Game 5. Great regular season made believers of us all. Then came the postseason doldrums.
> 
> This is an incomplete season. MVP, Coach of the Year, Exec of the Year...mean nothing without the ring. After this series, D-ROSE deserves all the negative criticism that comes his way.


Without big time changes this is what to expect year after year. Joakim Noah looked horrible out there and all I kept saying to myself was, man if only we had a center who could finish. There where soooo many bad plays by Noah in the post it was not even funny. Korver sucked to high heavens but BOY oh BOY Thibs was out coached from the minute game 2 started.


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## taco_daddy (Jun 13, 2004)

Marcus13 said:


> Nowwww this thread is legit


It was legit before. Some of us had the foresight to see the writing on the wall.

*EDIT: *I wonder if those who said that the starters should be rested towards the end of the season were right? Look at San Antonio, they went out in the first round with 61 wins. The year Boston was chasing the top seed they went out in the second round looking sorely fatigued. Could part of our problem too be that we were too concerned about the top seed in the regular season and not preparing for the playoffs instead?


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

taco_daddy said:


> It was legit before. Some of us had the foresight to see the writing on the wall.
> 
> *EDIT: *I wonder if those who said that the starters should be rested towards the end of the season were right? Look at San Antonio, they went out in the first round with 61 wins. The year Boston was chasing the top seed they went out in the second round looking sorely fatigued. Could part of our problem too be that we were too concerned about the top seed in the regular season and not preparing for the playoffs instead?


Well I think it was a legit comment vs. Indiana in the first round, and explained much of the ugliness from that series. 

With 1-2 day breaks, fatigue is more mental than physical. That wears on a team like Chicago that isn't the world's most talented team, rather gets by on focus and team play.


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## SWIFTSLICK (Aug 22, 2009)

thebizkit69u said:


> Without big time changes this is what to expect year after year. Joakim Noah looked horrible out there and all I kept saying to myself was, man if only we had a center who could finish. There where soooo many bad plays by Noah in the post it was not even funny. Korver sucked to high heavens but BOY oh BOY Thibs was out coached from the minute game 2 started.


Yeah, that Coach of the Year talent ain't really shining, is it? Korver is a jump shooter, you make it or you don't(kind of like having a good kicker in the NFL). Noah can rebound and once in a while block a shot, but ask him to do anything else and, well, look at the results. "Oh no, wait, he can pass though! Oh yeah, there's no one else to really pass to other than D-Rose. Right." :banghead:


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Every series is different and I'm not taking anything away from Noah who had a fantastic start to the season only to come back down to earth but damn, those can't trade Noah for Carmelo talks sure do look stupid now. Carmelo would have made all the difference in the world in this series. 

Heck maybe even JR Smith or OJ Mayo would have made a difference.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

I expected us to struggle but I did not expect Deng, Noah and Rose to have such poor games in a row. I'm shocked to see how bad Noah really was, I can't explain why he looks gassed after 2 minutes, I can't explain why a guy with so much energy just dissapeared in the bright lights.. This series is just so full of what if's and if only's. 

We should easily be up 3-1 but here we are, giving away games and down 3-1 lol.


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## SWIFTSLICK (Aug 22, 2009)

JR Smith or OJ Mayo might have made a difference. Melo definitely would've given this team instant offense, his defense would be suspect, but I think we could've lived with it.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

SWIFTSLICK said:


> JR Smith or OJ Mayo might have made a difference. Melo definitely would've given this team instant offense, his defense would be suspect, but I think we could've lived with it.


You saw how one dimensional we are. 

Melo would have made ALL the difference, heck Ronnie Brewer by far has been the best defender in this series so I honestly could have lived with Melo's offensive production when Brewer off the bench would have still provided great defense.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Every series is different and I'm not taking anything away from Noah who had a fantastic start to the season only to come back down to earth but damn, those can't trade Noah for Carmelo talks sure do look stupid now. Carmelo would have made all the difference in the world in this series.
> 
> Heck maybe even JR Smith or OJ Mayo would have made a difference.



If we add Carmelo but lose Noah and Deng, we lose.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

All right. I am now comfortable calling it. Nice season, Bulls. That was heartbreaking yesterday.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Silver lining: I am confident in saying that Derrick Rose will be a man on a mission next year. This Game 4 performance will eat at him all off-season long, and we all know he is the type who will let that make him better. 

Next year by all-star break, there will be no debating who the best PG in the league will be. I'm calling it right now.

As I said in the other thread though, Bulls management has work to do. The 2-guard spot needs major upgrading. Luol Deng needs help at SF...he will NOT be able to last 40 min/game for 82 games again next year (or at least it won't be healthy for him). And, something seems just a little bit off on our frontcourt. Feel like we need just a little shakeup there to boost the low-post offense, who isn't a total liability on D. Not sure how to do that without completely giving up on the 4 guys manning that spot right now.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> All right. I am now comfortable calling it. Nice season, Bulls. That was heartbreaking yesterday.


Nope. Not yet.

It was heartbreaking. We could have won it. On the other hand, this really is an issue of experience. How many times has LeBron failed? How many times did MJ fail? So I agree with Yodurk. 

But what I don't want to underestimate is Derrick's ability to push through the barriers sooner than we could have guessed. The Heat and their speed on defense are a real barrier. But we're damn close. It's not going to be a huge adjustment. But it's got to be one that gives Derrick the confidence to slow the game down enough so that he keeps just a bit more control of himself, and involves his teammates a bit more so that it doesn't all fall on him. 

So, I'm not betting that it will happen, but I'm not betting that it won't. 

Go Bulls!


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> If we add Carmelo but lose Noah and Deng, we lose.


Really?

What has Noah done this series besides be terrible?

Taj Gibson was out best defensive big man and Ronnie Brewer our best defensive wing in the series. I give credit to Deng for sticking Lebron well in game 1 but other than that his defense has made little impact, heck I think Carmelo's offense would make up for Dengs defense. We din't lose because of the defense, we lost because we had no scorers. 

I have enough confidence in Brewer and Taj that they could have made enough difference defensively.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Silver lining: I am confident in saying that Derrick Rose will be a man on a mission next year. This Game 4 performance will eat at him all off-season long, and we all know he is the type who will let that make him better.


I just don't know if we can win an NBA title with our best player being 6'2-6'3 and our only real offensive creator. Unless we get fantastic pieces around him like when Detroit made its title runs, I just don't see us being a legit contender until we get a real offense. 

Dwight Howard OBVIOUSLY solves almost all of our problems but he solves almost everyone else problems and we ain't going to get him. 

For us to win a title I think we have to make some really great and creative offseason moves, I just have 0 confidence in Garpax to do it. 

Another Bulls season another playoff exit.


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## Good Hope (Nov 27, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Really?
> 
> What has Noah done this series besides be terrible?
> 
> ...


I feel everything you're saying, but you've got to be objective enough to see the difference between:

We needed a bit more offensively to win

and 

Our defense didn't make an impact. 

The Heat have a guy in LeBron who is a two way player, and can be elite on both sides. Derrick ain't there, yet. Anthony ain't there, and he's had a much longer time to make that jump. 

Noah's and Deng's defense have made a difference. We're right there. A few small adjustments in how Derrick attacks the Heat, and we win, even in a close one.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Really?
> 
> What has Noah done this series besides be terrible?


Besides being terrible, he has been good.



> Taj Gibson was out best defensive big man and Ronnie Brewer our best defensive wing in the series. I give credit to Deng for sticking Lebron well in game 1 but other than that his defense has made little impact, heck I think Carmelo's offense would make up for Dengs defense. We din't lose because of the defense, we lost because we had no scorers.


Deng has been the best defensive wing, and has been asked to do a hell of a lot more than Brewer has.




> I have enough confidence in Brewer and Taj that they could have made enough difference defensively.



That confidence is misplaced. 


This team would be markedly worse had a Noah + Deng + whatever (Asik?) trade been made for Anthony. Far, far worse.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Another Bulls season another playoff exit.


Talk about obfuscation! What a disingenuous statement.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Good Hope said:


> I feel everything you're saying, but you've got to be objective enough to see the difference between:
> 
> We needed a bit more offensively to win
> 
> ...



Even with zero adjustments yesterday's game should have been a win. Missed free throws, a botched in-bounds play, Derrick taking it to the rack rather than popping a step-back jumper as time expires - any of these things could have led to a win. Make no mistake, the Heat didn't win this one yesterday, the Bulls lost.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Good Hope said:


> I feel everything you're saying, but you've got to be objective enough to see the difference between:
> 
> We needed a bit more offensively to win
> 
> ...


FT's win games also and you don't even want to see the split between Lebron and Deng it will make you vomit. 

Noah was horrible, there really are no excuses for him. Did he play decent defense? Sure, but we all know he can do that. The point is he was horrible in the post, his hands in the last game were the worse Ive seen him since his rookie year. He was so slow on help defense after the first quarter it was just mind boggling to see his energy go down every quarter. 

Deng can't stop Lebron and never will, heck nobody can stop him but YOU HAVE TO MAKE LEBRON WORK, he had by far one of the easiest defensive assignments in Deng because there was no threat at all of Deng attacking him with his dribble. 

What it all comes down to is if we could score we win this series. Derrick Rose is not getting the calls, it appears that he wont get the call's so finding new seems and driving is pointless right now. He needs to get back that deadly mid range game, improve his post up game and pick and roll defense. 

You just can't expect a title win when you just have a roster full of the same guys, you need balance and yes sometimes you need a chucker, Kyle Korver turtled on us.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> FT's win games also and you don't even want to see the split between Lebron and Deng it will make you vomit.


What rational person would expect Luol Deng to have a comparable number of free throws to LeBron freaking James?




> Noah was horrible, there really are no excuses for him. Did he play decent defense? Sure, but we all know he can do that.


Noah played well last night. I would have liked to have seen a couple more buckets go in on the offensive end, but his defense and rebounding were great.



> Deng can't stop Lebron and never will, heck nobody can stop him but YOU HAVE TO MAKE LEBRON WORK, he had by far one of the easiest defensive assignments in Deng because there was no threat at all of Deng attacking him with his dribble.


Deng is doing as well against James as you can reasonably expect any player to do. His defense has been solid. You do realize LeBron James is arguably the best player in the league, right? You also realize Deng scored 20 points on 50% shooting from the floor last night? In your opinion, Deng needs to do more than this? Deng wasn't the problem last night.




> What it all comes down to is if we could score we win this series. Derrick Rose is not getting the calls, it appears that he wont get the call's so finding new seems and driving is pointless right now. He needs to get back that deadly mid range game, improve his post up game and pick and roll defense.


I agree that scoring has been the biggest issue this season. A lot of that falls on Rose, however. He's had three bad games in a row.



> You just can't expect a title win when you just have a roster full of the same guys, you need balance and yes sometimes you need a chucker, Kyle Korver turtled on us.


Our roster does have balance, in theory. I agree we need a 2 who can create a bit of offense for himself rather than being a spot-up shooter like Bogans. And yes, Kyle Korver has played terribly and it's killing the team.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> Besides being terrible, he has been good.


He had a good game 1. Hes killed us more than a few times this series. I'm just shocked at how poorly he played.



> Deng has been the best defensive wing, and has been asked to do a hell of a lot more than Brewer has.


Brewer played fantastic D on Wade and played Lebron pretty well also. I'm not saying Deng did a terrible job, just that Lebron still got his just like he would on anyone. The difference is on the offensive end Deng was nothing more than just a spot shooter from time to time, he had an admirable performance though but like I said Carmelo in this series would have made a bigger difference IMO. 



That confidence is misplaced. 




> This team would be markedly worse had a Noah + Deng + whatever (Asik?) trade been made for Anthony. Far, far worse.


I have no doubts that if Melo was on this team we would not have struggled to beat teams like the Hawks and Pacers. Tom Thibs said that Melo is not a bad defender, so I don't think he would have hurt us all that badly. 

Taj is our best post defender and Brewer arguably is just as good defensively as Deng.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> What rational person would expect Luol Deng to have a comparable number of free throws to LeBron freaking James?


Nobody is saying that Deng should have similar FTA's but averaging 2.5 FTA's per game COME ONE. The story is not Deng doesn't attempt more FT's than Lebron the story behind those numbers is that Deng just can't create offense for himself. We can go back and fourth on the whole Defense vs Offense debate, but there is NO MISTAKING why we lost this series and that's entirely on our in ability to score. 



> Noah played well last night. I would have liked to have seen a couple more buckets go in on the offensive end, but his defense and rebounding were great.


His defense was ok but for a guy who is basically there to defend and bring energy, that play where Bosh hit a wide open jumper was such a bad mental mistake on part of Noah that you can't give him a pat on the back for allowing that and then go 3-10. Your BIG MAN SHOULD NEVER go 3-10. Offensively he killed us, Defensively he was in the right spots but din't make that much of an impact. Compare that to Joel Anthony basically shutting down the driving lane. 



> Deng is doing as well against James as you can reasonably expect any player to do. His defense has been solid. You do realize LeBron James is arguably the best player in the league, right? You also realize Deng scored 20 points on 50% shooting from the floor last night? In your opinion, Deng needs to do more than this? Deng wasn't the problem last night.


I think Deng had a decent series IMO, I'm just saying Carmelo would have had a bigger impact. Don't get the 2 mixed up, I'm not saying Deng failed miserably at doing what he does. He made jumpers but thats what Miami gave him, Deng could not get to the line to put Lebron in foul trouble, could create space with his dribble to make spacing a bit better and just can't do the things offensively that Melo would have done. The argument is just who would have made a bigger impact in this series and my opinion is Carmelo by far. 



> I agree that scoring has been the biggest issue this season. A lot of that falls on Rose, however. He's had three bad games in a row.


What did we expect, the smallest player on the court carries ALL OF OUR offensive work load and the guys around him just can't create for themselves, against another Elite defensive team it was a recipe for disaster. Derrick played way too passive and the defense clearly has him frustrated, he takes all the blame for everything like a true pro but everyone knows also that his teammates are just as big of a reason for his poor performance as anything else. 




> Our roster does have balance, in theory. I agree we need a 2 who can create a bit of offense for himself rather than being a spot-up shooter like Bogans. And yes, Kyle Korver has played terribly and it's killing the team.



Obviously we dont have balance lol. All season long we kept hearing how when Rose doesn't perform well who can carry the offense, you don't hear that all season long, all playoff long and consider your team to be balanced. 

I like Brewer, Taj, Omer, Deng and Noah but they all are defensive minded players who are very similar. 

You need different talents not just good defensive players to win in this league, Bosh, Wade and Lebron not only made great plays but they also got easy baskets and easy FT's. Everything for us on offense is soooo hard that I just can't sit here and say that we are balanced.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> He had a good game 1. Hes killed us more than a few times this series. I'm just shocked at how poorly he played.


He played well last night, too. I agree, though, that we should have expected more out of him.



> Brewer played fantastic D on Wade and played Lebron pretty well also. I'm not saying Deng did a terrible job, just that Lebron still got his just like he would on anyone. The difference is on the offensive end Deng was nothing more than just a spot shooter from time to time, he had an admirable performance though but like I said Carmelo in this series would have made a bigger difference IMO.


Brewer is a really good defender, I agree. But Deng has done more and has been asked to do far more. It's not really comparable. Carmelo would get absolutely murdered compared to either of these guys.




> I have no doubts that if Melo was on this team we would not have struggled to beat teams like the Hawks and Pacers. Tom Thibs said that Melo is not a bad defender, so I don't think he would have hurt us all that badly.


Yeah, you think Thibs was sharing his real assessment there? Funny.

We didn't struggle to beat the Hawks and Pacers particularly. 5 and 6 games. Big deal. Melo really took his team the distance in the playoffs, didn't he?



> Taj is our best post defender and Brewer arguably is just as good defensively as Deng.


Boozer is better than Taj at scoring and rebounding. I thought scoring was what you said you wanted? I guess Brewer is "arguably" as good as Deng, but until we see what he can do on LeBron for 40 minutes a night, there's no way for you to say that. Also, Brewer is a far inferior scorer to Deng. Again, I thought you wanted scoring.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Nobody is saying that Deng should have similar FTA's but averaging 2.5 FTA's per game COME ONE. The story is not Deng doesn't attempt more FT's than Lebron the story behind those numbers is that Deng just can't create offense for himself. We can go back and fourth on the whole Defense vs Offense debate, but there is NO MISTAKING why we lost this series and that's entirely on our in ability to score.


Deng scored 20 last night. 



> His defense was ok but for a guy who is basically there to defend and bring energy, that play where Bosh hit a wide open jumper was such a bad mental mistake on part of Noah that you can't give him a pat on the back for allowing that and then go 3-10. Your BIG MAN SHOULD NEVER go 3-10. Offensively he killed us, Defensively he was in the right spots but din't make that much of an impact. Compare that to Joel Anthony basically shutting down the driving lane.


His defense was better than ok. Yes, he made one mental mistake. That hardly proves your point. If you don't think Noah is valuable as a top NBA center, you are crazy. I agree going 3 for 10 sucked last night. You ignore the defense and rebounding, though, which is silly. I guess you'd trade him for Joel Anthony?




> I think Deng had a decent series IMO, I'm just saying Carmelo would have had a bigger impact. Don't get the 2 mixed up, I'm not saying Deng failed miserably at doing what he does. He made jumpers but thats what Miami gave him, Deng could not get to the line to put Lebron in foul trouble, could create space with his dribble to make spacing a bit better and just can't do the things offensively that Melo would have done. The argument is just who would have made a bigger impact in this series and my opinion is Carmelo by far.


Any increased scoring from Carmelo over Deng would be offset by LeBron's increased production. That's my thought. Carmelo has yet to show he can make an NBA team better. He puts up numbers, but seems to make everyone else around him worse. Look at what the Nuggets did this year after he left. That is pretty damning.

Also, please keep in mind with all of this that there is no indication we actually could have traded for Carmelo. That's a pretty massive hole in your argument. We only know that _Denver_ wanted Noah + Deng, but we actually have no indication that Carmelo would have consented to the deal and signed an extension. By all appearances, he would not have, and this whole line of thinking is a waste of time.




> What did we expect, the smallest player on the court carries ALL OF OUR offensive work load and the guys around him just can't create for themselves, against another Elite defensive team it was a recipe for disaster. Derrick played way too passive and the defense clearly has him frustrated, he takes all the blame for everything like a true pro but everyone knows also that his teammates are just as big of a reason for his poor performance as anything else.


His teammates failing to hit shots matters, but if you're the MVP and the superstar of your team, you have to shoulder responsibility. Rose is doing that. You seem to just want to give him a pass on everything, though, and spend time attacking role players who by and large played their roles as expected.



> Obviously we dont have balance lol. All season long we kept hearing how when Rose doesn't perform well who can carry the offense, you don't hear that all season long, all playoff long and consider your team to be balanced.


Offensively we have balance. Your argument is beyond silly. Boozer + Deng + Korver should be plenty of balance in the scoring department. What we lack is another good creator. That's a separate issue from balance.



> I like Brewer, Taj, Omer, Deng and Noah but they all are defensive minded players who are very similar.


No, not really. Deng's scoring makes him more than just a defensive-minded player. Noah can't shoot well, but is an excellent passer. Taj has passable, but not great offense. Brewer is basically just a defensive/hustle player. They aren't all the same.



> You need different talents not just good defensive players to win in this league, Bosh, Wade and Lebron not only made great plays but they also got easy baskets and easy FT's. Everything for us on offense is soooo hard that I just can't sit here and say that we are balanced.


Say whatever you want, but it doesn't make it so. We need another creator. I agree. That should come through upgrading the 2 guard position. But aside from all of your lack of balance argument, the Bulls should have won last night. It wasn't a lack of balance that stopped them. It was 2 players missing free throws, a crucial turnover, and Rose choking at the end of the game.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> Deng scored 20 last night.


You know how many of those points where scored in the fourth? 2. Like I said hes doing all hes asked to do, hes just not capable of carrying a huge offensive load and I can't fault him for that cause he is what he is. 

20 points in nearly 45 minutes is not as awesome as it sounds. You gotta take it to the basket to break this defense, jump shots and long range shots is what the defense gave him. You gotta go beyond the numbers and evaluate his offensive game. 

But in the grand scheme of things I just want to make it clear that he had a decent series, so don't confuse what I'm saying with me bashing the guy.



> His defense was better than ok. Yes, he made one mental mistake. That hardly proves your point. If you don't think Noah is valuable as a top NBA center, you are crazy. I agree going 3 for 10 sucked last night. You ignore the defense and rebounding, though, which is silly. I guess you'd trade him for Joel Anthony?


Has Noah stopped Miami from doing what they want to do on offense? No. 
Has Joel Anthony stopped Chicago from doing things? Yes. 

You are missing what I'm saying, I din't say Noah sucked all season, I din't say we need to get rid of Noah today. I said he killed us offensively and has sucked at times in this series. Thats a fact. Rebounds are fine and dandy but they are what they are rebounds, not points rebounds. I'll take offensive post production over 10-15 rebounds any day of the week. 




> Any increased scoring from Carmelo over Deng would be offset by LeBron's increased production. That's my thought. Carmelo has yet to show he can make an NBA team better. He puts up numbers, but seems to make everyone else around him worse. Look at what the Nuggets did this year after he left. That is pretty damning.


Thats because Melo has always been the #1 option, no doubt in mind as the #2 option here, with this team and the way they play defense he would be a very well used piece. Also, Melos numbers vs Lebron are good, hes like 15 and 5 against Lebron in his career and has dropped 40 point games on him as well. I think the Bulls team defense would cancel out Lebron scoring 40 all the time against us and even if Lebron scores 40 it probably means that hes doing all the scoring while the rest of the team is shut down. 

The point is Lebron would also have to work extremely hard on defending Melo.




> Also, please keep in mind with all of this that there is no indication we actually could have traded for Carmelo. That's a pretty massive hole in your argument. We only know that _Denver_ wanted Noah + Deng, but we actually have no indication that Carmelo would have consented to the deal and signed an extension. By all appearances, he would not have, and this whole line of thinking is a waste of time.


True.



> His teammates failing to hit shots matters, but if you're the MVP and the superstar of your team, you have to shoulder responsibility. Rose is doing that. You seem to just want to give him a pass on everything, though, and spend time attacking role players who by and large played their roles as expected.


After the game I said Rose should give back his MVP, mostly out of frustration but I have been very critical of him this series. I don't know were you think I'm giving him a pass.




> Offensively we have balance. Your argument is beyond silly. Boozer + Deng + Korver should be plenty of balance in the scoring department. What we lack is another good creator. That's a separate issue from balance.


You call an offense that needed Derrick Rose to score nearly 45% of its teams points to beat Indiana balanced? LOL.

We lack a big man who can score in the post, a wing who can create then I think we are a balanced offense. 

This is a team built on defense, its HEAVILY leans on its defense over its offense, thats not balance. 




> No, not really. Deng's scoring makes him more than just a defensive-minded player. Noah can't shoot well, but is an excellent passer. Taj has passable, but not great offense. Brewer is basically just a defensive/hustle player. They aren't all the same.


In the grand scheme of things they are, none of them can create offense. Out of all these guys Deng is the more offensive oriented player but no doubt his main strength is defense. 




> Say whatever you want, but it doesn't make it so. We need another creator. I agree. That should come through upgrading the 2 guard position. But aside from all of your lack of balance argument, the Bulls should have won last night. It wasn't a lack of balance that stopped them. It was 2 players missing free throws, a crucial turnover, and Rose choking at the end of the game.


I never said he din't choke, the fact is nobody BUT Rose was trying to make plays.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> You know how many of those points where scored in the fourth? 2. Like I said hes doing all hes asked to do, hes just not capable of carrying a huge offensive load and I can't fault him for that cause he is what he is.


Agreed. He is a good scorer, but not a good creator.



> Has Noah stopped Miami from doing what they want to do on offense? No.
> Has Joel Anthony stopped Chicago from doing things? Yes.


Miami doesn't score a ton inside, so this argument doesn't mean much. I agree Noah has had a below average series. Your initial argument, though, was that he has only been "terrible." That's not true. He's been both good and bad at times.



> You are missing what I'm saying, I din't say Noah sucked all season, I din't say we need to get rid of Noah today. I said he killed us offensively and has sucked at times in this series. Thats a fact. Rebounds are fine and dandy but they are what they are rebounds, not points rebounds. I'll take offensive post production over 10-15 rebounds any day of the week.


Rebounds = possessions = points. The Bulls won a hell of a lot of games this year by winning the rebounding battle. 




> Thats because Melo has always been the #1 option, no doubt in mind as the #2 option here, with this team and the way they play defense he would be a very well used piece. Also, Melos numbers vs Lebron are good, hes like 15 and 5 against Lebron in his career and has dropped 40 point games on him as well. I think the Bulls team defense would cancel out Lebron scoring 40 all the time against us and even if Lebron scores 40 it probably means that hes doing all the scoring while the rest of the team is shut down.
> 
> The point is Lebron would also have to work extremely hard on defending Melo.


I don't think Melo would agree to play Robin to Rose's Batman. If he would, you might have a good argument here.



> You call an offense that needed Derrick Rose to score nearly 45% of its teams points to beat Indiana balanced? LOL.


Isolating the Indiana series is intellectually dishonest. I'm looking at the entire season when I say the offense had balance this year in terms of the breakdown of scoring. It's not as though Rose averaged 32 PPG and nobody else averaged double figures.



> We lack a big man who can score in the post, a wing who can create then I think we are a balanced offense.


Boozer is a big and can score in the post effectively. He hasn't done so because (1) we're not running a system that will allow him to do that and (2) he has gone through a protracted period lately of sucking.

I agree we need a wing creator-type player very much.



> This is a team built on defense, its HEAVILY leans on its defense over its offense, thats not balance.


This wasn't the case so much in the regular season but seems to be holding true in the playoffs. It still got them to the ECF.



> I never said he din't choke, the fact is nobody BUT Rose was trying to make plays.


No, he just choked. He cleared out and settled for a terrible step back jumper rather than attacking the rim. The other offensive players have nothing to do with that. This is a simple ISO failure.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> Miami doesn't score a ton inside, so this argument doesn't mean much. I agree Noah has had a below average series. Your initial argument, though, was that he has only been "terrible." That's not true. He's been both good and bad at times.


Actually I think it does. Joakim Noah is not a very good post defender, infact I think hes a much better help defender and perimeter defender but thats where the Heat are killing us, that 12-15 Bosh Jumper or drive is almost automatic, Noah and Boozer have not been able to do anything against that. I think Noah has been horrible offensively, a 1 point 5 rebound game followed by a 3-10 showing... thats horrible. 



> Rebounds = possessions = points. The Bulls won a hell of a lot of games this year by winning the rebounding battle.


Just not in this series. I'm keeping it about the series. 



> I don't think Melo would agree to play Robin to Rose's Batman. If he would, you might have a good argument here.


Maybe, maybe not. I don't know what goes on in his head but if he played Robin it would make life easier for him and Rose. He would obviously have to buy into the role. 



> Isolating the Indiana series is intellectually dishonest. I'm looking at the entire season when I say the offense had balance this year in terms of the breakdown of scoring. It's not as though Rose averaged 32 PPG and nobody else averaged double figures.


Like I said, the season does not matter. We are talking about the playoff's, the Bulls offense has been atrocious this playoff's and incredibly un balanced. Even during the season we are talking about a mediocre at best offense and thats with Rose giving us an MVP year. 



> Boozer is a big and can score in the post effectively. He hasn't done so because (1) we're not running a system that will allow him to do that and (2) he has gone through a protracted period lately of sucking.


VERY LONG Period. Months in fact, a spiraling trend. I find it hard to believe that Boozer is not playing a system that benefits him, he averaged like 20 and 10 in his first couple of months. 



> No, he just choked. He cleared out and settled for a terrible step back jumper rather than attacking the rim. The other offensive players have nothing to do with that. This is a simple ISO failure.


At the end of the game he said he was looking for his teammates for an easy shot, everyone just stood around so he made a good move on Lebron and Lebron got twisted, Rose's mistake was not driving to the basket instead he attempted a fade away jumper, something he just doesnt do well. 

Rose chocked maybe sure. 

But IMO that flagrant foul that led to 4 point swing in favor of Miami sealed the deal.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Actually I think it does. Joakim Noah is not a very good post defender, infact I think hes a much better help defender and perimeter defender but thats where the Heat are killing us


The Bulls annihilated the Heat on points in the paint last night. Post defense was no issue whatsoever.




> Just not in this series. I'm keeping it about the series.


I can't speak for every game because I don't have the stats in front of me, but the Bulls largely won game 1 because of rebounding and lost game 2 because of it, if I recall.



> Like I said, the season does not matter. We are talking about the playoff's, the Bulls offense has been atrocious this playoff's and incredibly un balanced. Even during the season we are talking about a mediocre at best offense and thats with Rose giving us an MVP year.


Saying "the season does not matter" is silly and false. Also, you didn't isolate it to the playoffs, you isolated it to the Indiana series. It's not a fair sample size if you're trying to make sweeping arguments about the nature of the Bulls' offense. That's your prerogative, but it's not rational.




> VERY LONG Period. Months in fact, a spiraling trend. I find it hard to believe that Boozer is not playing a system that benefits him, he averaged like 20 and 10 in his first couple of months.


It doesn't really matter whether you find it "hard to believe." We don't run a system through Boozer like Utah did. Derrick does not get him the ball very effectively in the post and he does not seem to have any comfort running the pick and roll & pick and pop with Boozer. I think this will come with time, but it's put Boozer at a big disadvantage. I agree, though, that there's more than just this that's going on with Boozer. However, Boozer did not all of a sudden start to suck at basketball for no reason. The only explanations I can see are old age, which is unlikely to set in so rapidly, and lingering injury issues, which seem likely considering his past history and the nature of the injuries sustained this year. Maybe a mental explanation?



> At the end of the game he said he was looking for his teammates for an easy shot, everyone just stood around so he made a good move on Lebron and Lebron got twisted, Rose's mistake was not driving to the basket instead he attempted a fade away jumper, something he just doesnt do well.


I didn't see him say this. I saw him say he wanted to run the clock all the way down and get a good look. I may just have missed it. From watching the play, it was clear they were running a simple ISO for Rose and not trying to create for others.




> But IMO that flagrant foul that led to 4 point swing in favor of Miami sealed the deal.


That sucked and was huge, I agree. I don't think it was actually flagrant, though. It's funny that finally Boozer gets in front of a guy and tries to make a play, only to have it blow up in his face. Ugh.

That issue was smaller, though, than the missed free throws, turnover, and bad play all occurring at the end of the game.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> The Bulls annihilated the Heat on points in the paint last night. Post defense was no issue whatsoever.


Like you said The Heat are not a post offense team anyways. The Heat don't score in the paint and like I said that' should have have been a positive because Noah is a better perimeter defender. 



> I can't speak for every game because I don't have the stats in front of me, but the Bulls largely won game 1 because of rebounding and lost game 2 because of it, if I recall.


The Bulls have out rebounded the Heat in 2 out of our 3 loses to them. The biggest difference is they aren't scoring on the offensive rebounds like they did in game 1. 



> It doesn't really matter whether you find it "hard to believe." We don't run a system through Boozer like Utah did. Derrick does not get him the ball very effectively in the post and he does not seem to have any comfort running the pick and roll & pick and pop with Boozer. I think this will come with time, but it's put Boozer at a big disadvantage. I agree, though, that there's more than just this that's going on with Boozer. However, Boozer did not all of a sudden start to suck at basketball for no reason. The only explanations I can see are old age, which is unlikely to set in so rapidly, and lingering injury issues, which seem likely considering his past history and the nature of the injuries sustained this year. Maybe a mental explanation?


The difference in offense between Utah and the Bulls DOES NOT explain Boozers in ability to score when he actually had the ball in his hands and when in a perfect post spot. Hes getting the same looks and touches, maybe not as much but what we are seeing is a guy who was not finishing and missing wide open shots, that has nothing to do with Utah's scheme. He averaged 15 and 13 against the Lakers last year and 17 and 11 against the Heat this year, no excuses. 




> I didn't see him say this. I saw him say he wanted to run the clock all the way down and get a good look. I may just have missed it. From watching the play, it was clear they were running a simple ISO for Rose and not trying to create for others.


It was a post game interview, he was looking to make a similar play to the one a few months ago when Deng hit the game winning 3. It just din't pan out. 



> That sucked and was huge, I agree. I don't think it was actually flagrant, though. It's funny that finally Boozer gets in front of a guy and tries to make a play, only to have it blow up in his face. Ugh.
> 
> That issue was smaller, though, than the missed free throws, turnover, and bad play all occurring at the end of the game.


True. 

Just a combination of a lot of things are leading to our demise, but the common theme here is lack of offensive production when needed.


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