# Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (4)



## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Playoff time. I figured instead of doing individual game threads we can keep one thread going devoted to the entire series. Go Bulls!























































Kirk Hinrich - PG - 
Jimmy Butler - SG - 
Mike Dunleavy - SF -
Carlos Boozer - PF - 
Joakim Noah - C -














































John Wall - PG
Bradley Beal - SG
Trevor Ariza - SF
Nene - PF
Marcin Gortat - C
*
Regular Season:* (4) Chicago Bulls 48-34; (5) Washington Wizards 44-38

*Season Series:* Wizards lead 2-1

*Points per game (per 100 possessions):* Bulls 93.8, Wizards 100.4 (Bulls 102.7, Wizards 105.8).

*Points allowed per game (per 100 possessions):* Bulls 91.8, Wizards 99.4 (Bulls 100.5, Wizards 104.6).


Game 1: WAS at CHI | Sun., Apr. 20, 7:00 PM ET | TNT
Game 2: WAS at CHI | Tue., Apr. 22, 9:30 PM ET | TNT
Game 3: CHI at WAS | Fri., Apr. 25, 8:00 PM ET | ESPN
Game 4: CHI at WAS | Sun., Apr. 27, 1:00 PM ET | ABC
Game 5: WAS at CHI | Tue., Apr. 29 | If Needed
Game 6: CHI at WAS | Thu., May 1 | If Needed
Game 7: WAS at CHI | Sat., May 3 | TNT | If Needed


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

I know they've been bringing him along slowly up to this point, but Nene will likely start over Booker in the playoffs.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

I'll take your word for it, updated.


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## Fergus (Oct 2, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

I was thinking about what advantages the Bulls would have with the various match ups in this series. 

Noah is obviously having a great year and has the advantage at center, but Gortat is a solid opponent. Wall wins the advantage at point guard and the rest of the match ups could go either way.

In the end, I think the biggest match up advantage the Bulls have is Coach Thibs vs the Wizard Whitman. 

Bring on the Wizards! May the best team win!


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

Bulls in 5


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## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

I think the Bulls will be too well-coached and planned for thr wizards. Bulls in 5.


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## bullsger (Jan 14, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*








* vs *









*
WASHINGTON WIZARDS (0-0) @ CHICAGO BULLS (0-0) 
EASTERN CONFERENCE PLAYOFFS – FIRST ROUND 
POST-SEASON GAME ONE, HOME GAME ONE 
SUNDAY, APRIL 20, 2014 – 6:00 PM CT 
UNITED CENTER 
Comcast SportsNet / TNT / ESPN 1000 AM / WRTO-AM*

BULLS vs. WIZARDS ALL-TIME
ALL-TIME .................. Bulls lead 113-95
BULLS CURRENT STREAK ........ 1 Win
BULLS HOME STREAK ............. 1 Loss
BULLS ROAD STREAK ............... 1 Win

BULLS VS. WIZARDS THIS SEASON 
Jan. 13 @ Chicago – Wizards 102, Bulls 88 
Jan. 17 @ Washington – Wizards 96, Bulls 93 
April 5 @ Washington –Bulls 96, Wizards 78

BULLS PLAYOFF HISTORY VERSUS WASHINGTON
1997 EASTERN CONFERENCE FIRST ROUND (BULLS WON 3-0)
CHI - W 98-86
CHI - W 109-104
WAS - W 96-95

2005 EASTERN CONFERENCE FIRST ROUND (WIZARDS WON 4-2)
CHI - W 103-94
CHI - W 113-103
WAS - L 99-117
WAS - L 99-106
CHI - L 110-112
WAS - L 91-94

2014 EASTERN CONFERENCE FIRST ROUND

Game Notes










*Chicago Bulls (0-0)*
Home 0-0
Road 0-0

*Bulls Season Averages:*
PPG: 0.0 (Opp: 0.0)
RPG: 0.0 (Opp: 0.0) 
APG: 0.0 (Opp: 0.0)
SPG: 0.0 (Opp: 0.0) 
BPG: 0.0 (Opp: 0.0) 
TO: 0.0 (Opp: 0.0) 
FG%: .000 (Opp: .000)
FT%: .000 (Opp: .000) 
3p%: .000 (Opp: .000)

*Probable Bulls starters*





































Kirk Hinrich - PG - 
Jimmy Butler - SG - 
Mike Dunleavy - SF -
Carlos Boozer - PF - 
Joakim Noah - C -

*Bulls Stats Leaders*
Points: 
Rebounds: 
Assists: 
Steals: 
Blocks: 

FG%: 
FT%: 
3FG%: 

*Injury report*
Derrick Rose (right knee) is out

For a full report and the latest on Bulls' injuries, check out the AthletiCo Injury Report.










*Washington Wizards (0-0) *
Home 0-0
Road 0-0

*Probable Wizards starters*




































John Wall - PG
Bradley Beal - SG
Trevor Ariza - SF
Trevor Booker - PF
Marcin Gortat - C

*Injury report*
-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

Cautiously excited about playoff basketball.... that's where I am right now....


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

I think this is going to be a real solid series. Washington was one of the teams I've been excited to see in the post season.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

t-minus four hours and 26 minutes


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

Well... slow start, but things have picked up a bit. Bulls lead 54-48. Taj Gibson with a nice spark... DJ Augustine has taken some bad shots and had some early jitters, but I think helped get the offense moving in the 2nd quarter. He and Hinrich played well together too. Nene was kicking out ass early. 

Wiz shot 12-21 from the free throw line in the 1st half, so we dodged a bullet there.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

Dunleavy was ice cold in the 1st half (0-5)... Tony Snell (and the DJ/Kirk/Jimmy G. Buckets 1-3 lineup) got some run early


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

Dunleavy with a 3 and a put back to start the 2nd half, hopefully he gets hot


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

On cue, Dunleavy for 3


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

69-63 after a frantic stretch in the 3rd... Thibs grabs a timeout. The pace has been pretty high... it will be interesting to see if we can settle into a half court game in an attempt to close this thing out


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

Wiz on a 13-2 run, 71-70 good guys


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

Bulls 75 Wizards 72 heading into the 4th.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

92-88 Wizards with 2:39 left... we seem tight down the stretch, lots of bad possessions and the occasional tight-looking jumper. Andre Miller and Nene have kept the Wiz in this game, and now have them in a position to steal one on our home floor if we don't shape the **** up in a hurry


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

96-90 Wiz, under a minute. I think I would have brought Dunleavy back on at some point... at least he isn't afraid to shoot. Butler and Hinrich both lack confidence in their jumpers, even though Hinrich had a decent game offensively... passing up open looks in crunch time.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

Like I said before, length, athleticism and *real *bigs are going to be the difference here.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

had that "I told you so" all stored up and ready to go?


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*



Dornado said:


> had that "I told you so" all stored up and ready to go?


Nothing is stored up, I've been saying un-popular yet true stuff for years now.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*



thebizkit69u said:


> Nothing is stored up, I've been saying un-popular yet true stuff for years now.


Well, you were sure right as of game 1. Hopefully Thibs can right the ship.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*



Dornado said:


> Well, you were sure right as of game 1. Hopefully Thibs can right the ship.


The *only *thing Thibs can do is make his players play harder for an entire 48 minutes. Its not sustainable, its not the smart thing to do, yet its the only thing they can do if they want to win.

As good as the Bulls defense is, they can't expect to shut down Wall, the bigs *AND *their 3 point shooting, while at the same time not being able to put up points.

The truth is, in a 7 game series vs the Wizards, the Bulls can't rely on keeping them under 90 points a game. That strategy works against teams like Indiana and Charlotte but not a team like the Wizards who can put up points in transition and in the Pick and Roll. The Wizards are too athletic to FORCE them into a half court game for a full 48 minutes.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

Well we know the limitations of our offense and on some nights, we won't have it. Series far from over. Didn't think we'd lose one at home, so now we need to take one, preferably two from the Wizards.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

The difference in this game was, IMO, the Wizards' DEFENSE.

I thought they were mainly an offense first team that was still learning to play good/consistent team D. But they were really swarming our ballhandlers most of the game and down low were bullying our rebounders. They kicked in an extra gear in that 4th quarter. And the thing is, I thought the Bulls ball movement wasn't bad at all, just that Washington was using their quickness to recover well and contesting most of our looks.

DJ Augustin was pretty terrible & Noah definitely was not playing his best (not sure if related to his mentor passing away the other day). I think Noah will bounce back, but I am a bit concerned about DJ...the Wizards have a big PG rotation in Wall and Miller which could cause DJ fits all series long. 

Thibs could've done better adjustments as well, IMO...this is actually a good match up for Boozer (one of the few) yet he still stuck to the rigid "play Boozer 24 minutes" in spite of needing offense badly at times. 

Would like to think we'll make adjustments in game 2, but Thibs can be pretty stubborn with his system, to the point where he'll live or die by it.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

Also should add, Thibs of course focused on the defensive #'s of 48% shooting for the Wizards, not to mention 35 FT attempts and out rebounding the Bulls. HOWEVER, so much of that offense was generated by the Wizards' defense like I alluded above. Missed jumper after missed jumper was turning into John Wall fast breaks; even though Wall's numbers were modest, he was definitely a big factor with pushing the ball. That is where they got a ton of these FT attempts and easy buckets. Bulls' halfcourt D wasn't great but it was the Wizards' points on the run that mattered.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*



thebizkit69u said:


> Nothing is stored up, I've been saying un-popular yet true stuff for years now.



Like that the Bulls would be a lottery team last year?

No, you've traded mostly in unpopular and untrue things.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*



yodurk said:


> Also should add, Thibs of course focused on the defensive #'s of 48% shooting for the Wizards, not to mention 35 FT attempts and out rebounding the Bulls. HOWEVER, so much of that offense was generated by the Wizards' defense like I alluded above. Missed jumper after missed jumper was turning into John Wall fast breaks; even though Wall's numbers were modest, he was definitely a big factor with pushing the ball. That is where they got a ton of these FT attempts and easy buckets. Bulls' halfcourt D wasn't great but it was the Wizards' points on the run that mattered.



The Bulls let Washington dictate the pace far too often.

The Bulls did not defend well and did not rebound well, generally. They are lucky Washington was inept at the charity stripe, or things would have been a lot uglier.

The Bulls are going to have a tough time if DJ and MDJ aren't hitting shots. 

Hopefully Nene comes back to earth a bit offensively. If he can replicate that performance, that's going to mean trouble.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

I'm in a basketball depression after game 1. I've gone back to missing Derrick Rose and thinking about the draft. Hopefully game 2 can snap me out of it.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

Washington Post says:











Mike Wise: In Game 1, Washington Wizards beat the gritty Chicago Bulls at their own game



> CHICAGO — The late-game images were so telling: Trevor Ariza chasing down D.J. Augustin from behind with two minutes left, swatting the ball off the glass. Every offensive possession treated not just carefully down the stretch but almost treasured, until someone had a wide-open look or a layup or ended up at the free throw line.
> 
> The Wizards didn’t merely win Game 1 of their first playoff series in six years; they out- Chicagoed the Bulls.


Chicago Tribune says:

Wizards make Bulls' home-court edge disappear



> All of Tom Thibodeau's pre-series concerns about the Wizards came to fruition Sunday night at the United Center.
> 
> Nene played like an All-Star. Trevor Ariza hit big shots. Marcin Gortat did his damage inside. Andre Miller proved ageless.
> 
> ...


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

This is why we need Melo.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*

Kirk Hinrich sucks.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (0)*



Basel said:


> Kirk Hinrich sucks.


We're allowed to say that.... but your Laker fan ass is not (this is the "nobody picks on our brother but us" philosophy, I guess). 

And anyway, Kirk Hinrich does not suck... he's just supposed to be a backup PG and a defensive specialist playing 10-12 minutes a game, not the guy taking the ball for you in crunch time. On a real contending team he should be a 9th or 10th option on offense. Not really his fault that he's been miscast.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (2)*

I really had zero expectations for this season (once Rose went down), other than to potentially bother some teams in the playoffs... but I'm finding myself extremely frustrated after that loss.

We've had a few years to learn that you can't really win in the playoffs in this league without multiple guys that create offense for themselves, and this team is probably the absolute worst of the non-Tim Floyd-era teams on that front that I've seen from us. I mean, good lord, are we brutal to watch on offense. And how come we can dust off Mike Dunleavy for a few posessions with 30 seconds left but we can't bring him in for any of the 10 preceding minutes where we couldn't hit a bucket to save our ****ing lives.... and seriously, I'm not a Carlos Boozer fan, but those two are at least competent at putting a ball through a basket, which is more than I can say of anyone not-named Augustin in our 4th quarter rotation, and even he was easily shut down once they put Trevor Ariza on him. We should have forced the action to DJ anyway, I guess, but again, he's miscast on this team too due to our lack of offensive options.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (2)*

I did not see this coming at all. 

The whole Eastern Conference wanted to avoid the Bulls and wanted to play the Wizards, and then WHAM.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (2)*

The only thing I'm surprised about, is giving the Defensive player of the year award to someone who can't defend his position against bigs with a pulse.

Nothing about this series should surprise anyone. It's a bad matchup, the wizards are too long, quick and big to contain into a grind it out game. The only way to beat then is to put up points.... the bulls can't. 

The series was over before the games actually began.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



thebizkit69u said:


> The only thing I'm surprised about, is giving the Defensive player of the year award to someone who can't defend his position against bigs with a pulse.


I'm not sure who this person is that you're referring to.


In any event, if you needed a series to show why you need a Melo-type guy capable of getting his own shot, you've got it here.

I can't believe Thibs' stubborness on his rotation down the stretch last night. It helps nobody to play guys with absolutely no gas in the tank.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



jnrjr79 said:


> In any event, if you needed a series to show why you need a Melo-type guy capable of getting his own shot, you've got it here.
> 
> I can't believe Thibs' stubborness on his rotation down the stretch last night. It helps nobody to play guys with absolutely no gas in the tank.


If the bulls FO needed this series to prove something we have known for years now, well let's just say we have a very incompetent front office.

I gotta agree with you on Thibs. Very odd decision making, his flat out refusal to rest guys and put on some offensive rotations out there is just bizarre.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



thebizkit69u said:


> If the bulls FO needed this series to prove something we have known for years now, well let's just say we have a very incompetent front office.



Yeah, I was addressing that more to a certain contingent of fans rather than the Bulls FO. I think the FO knows and wants a true scorer, but has just not been able to acquire him. I have seen sentiment indicating that you shouldn't move guys like Taj for a "selfish" player like Carmelo, but I think last night should convince those folks that you need a balance of Taj types and scorer types. 12 Gibsons ain't gonna do it.

I understand that Derrick is out and, if healthy, the offense would be a lot better. Still, I think the team needs more than just Derrick. 

Watching Hinrich jack jump shots down the stretch last night was just painful. I couldn't fathom why Augustin wasn't the primary ballhandler in overtime.

And for the love of God, when you can't buy a bucket and Jimmy has played 50 minutes, don't you think you might try to go to Dunleavy for a stretch in OT? 

Thibs does adjust tactics sometimes, but boy does he hate adjusting rotations.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



thebizkit69u said:


> The only thing I'm surprised about, is giving the Defensive player of the year award to someone who can't defend his position against bigs with a pulse.


This isn't remotely true. Thibs is using Noah this series as the help defender on Wall's drives. He can't help on Wall while also being in position to stop Nene AND Gortat. Especially with Nene shooting the ball the way he is. 

EDIT: If you don't believe me, Coach Nick agrees: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2F3p8J4q0So

I am very disappointed with Thibs thru 2 games...I feel like Whitman has just out coached him. We let them get the confidence going early, when the more experienced team like the Bulls should've beat it out of them early.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



jnrjr79 said:


> Thibs does adjust tactics sometimes, but boy does he hate adjusting rotations.


Agree 100%. I am not surprised though. Thibs is stubborn and will follow his system rigidly to a fault. That's who he is for better or worse. 

He has been unable and/or slow to make adjustments this series. The Bulls were stuck on 91 points forever in the 4th quarter and OT, yet he didn't make any personnel adjustments at all.

I said it before, the biggest surprise this series is the Wizards' defense. I knew Ariza could defend but as a team D, I didn't consider them remotely threatening. They have brought it and then some, particularly in the 4th. Maybe I just didn't know enough about them...apparently they had a top 10 defensive rating this year.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



yodurk said:


> Agree 100%. I am not surprised though. Thibs is stubborn and will follow his system rigidly to a fault. That's who he is for better or worse.
> 
> He has been unable and/or slow to make adjustments this series. The Bulls were stuck on 91 points forever in the 4th quarter and OT, yet he didn't make any personnel adjustments at all.
> 
> I said it before, the biggest surprise this series is the Wizards' defense. I knew Ariza could defend but as a team D, I didn't consider them remotely threatening. They have brought it and then some, particularly in the 4th. Maybe I just didn't know enough about them...apparently they had a top 10 defensive rating this year.



It seems to me like it's two things. First, they are healthy. Second, unlike the Bulls, they didn't play at their highest gear all season, so there was some "want to" room for improvement defensively.


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## Fergus (Oct 2, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (2)*

Very frustrating! Thibs needs to rethink and come up with a better plan. He is definitely being out-coached so far. One thing that needs to change quickly, is Butler needs a breather during these games. Thibs has got to have more trust in Snell and Brewer.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



Fergus said:


> Very frustrating! Thibs needs to rethink and come up with a better plan. He is definitely being out-coached so far. One thing that needs to change quickly, is Butler needs a breather during these games. Thibs has got to have more trust in Snell and Brewer.


Yep, I agree Thibs is being out coached. The #1 evidence for that is how they are utilizing Nene to break up the Bulls' defensive strategy of overplaying Wall on the pick and roll. (once again here is the Coach Nick evidence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2F3p8J4q0So)

Nene was the X-factor going into this series and the fact that he's shooting the ball so well is making the entire series shift to Washington's favor. If Nene was missing even just a few more of those mid-range J's, IMO the Bulls would be up 2-0 in this series. But the thing that kills me is that Thibs is not changing the defensive strategy to throw Nene off his rhythm. It's like he just assumes Nene will cool off or something. If I were Thibs, I would focus heavily in game 3 on getting Nene into uncomfortable spots rather than letting Noah be the help guy off him.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (2)*

And that's how you throw a series away. Nene did one of the dumbest things any player can do in a playoff series. Get thrown out of a close game and possibly suspended for a game or 2. 

Stupidity at its finest.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (2)*

Yeah Nene ****ed up there


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## Fergus (Oct 2, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



thebizkit69u said:


> And that's how you throw a series away. Nene did one of the dumbest things any player can do in a playoff series. Get thrown out of a close game and possibly suspended for a game or 2.
> 
> Stupidity at its finest.


It has been made official. Nene is suspended for game 4. 

The Bulls need to take full advantage of this and tie up the series with a win. The Bulls need to aggressively attack inside, going right at Gortat. D.J and Kirk need to get hot from the outside as well.

They can not depend on another miracle shooting day from Dunleavy.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (0) v. Washington Wizards (2)*

Noah hasn't played well yet...he's the guy who needs to step up and play like an all-star today without Nene playing. Dunleavy saved our @%% last game, can't count on that again. Also would like better use of Boozer...he has played like our best offensive big man, but I don't like how Thibs has utilized his minutes sticking to that rigid 24 min plan in spite of needing offense badly at times.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*

I think it is important to come out of the gates strong in this one, which might be difficult with the noon start (I feel like I have bad day-game memories with Bulls teams of recent vintage, but maybe I'm wrong). If we're down late I can see us tightening up, as this is essentially a must-win for us. 

I think we should feel pretty lucky escaping the last one with a victory... Dunleavy certainly bailed us out, as @yodurk pointed out. Hopefully we can bring a serious defensive effort today and take home court advantage back.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*

This changes everything, If Nene stayed in that game, the Bulls would be down 3-0. Nene is arguably the second most important player on that team and his absence will have a domino effect on the Wiz. Gortat will not be as effective, the Bulls will have an easier time defending the pick and roll, which will lead to the Bulls being able to cheat toward the perimeter shooters a bit more now that Nene is out. 

If the Bulls win today, I think the Bulls win the series... but to be more accurate the Wizards threw the series away.


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## taco_daddy (Jun 13, 2004)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



thebizkit69u said:


> If the Bulls win today, I think the Bulls win the series... but to be more accurate the Wizards threw the series away.


That's a curious statement you made there. The Bulls couldn't win three games in a row with Nene in the game (according to you), yet they will win two of the last three with him in the game?


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*

This effort is awful. Ugh.

Carlos is unwatchable.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



taco_daddy said:


> That's a curious statement you made there. The Bulls couldn't win three games in a row with Nene in the game (according to you), yet they will win two of the last three with him in the game?


Well its not going to happen obviously.

But I actually expected the Bulls to have played this game with a ton of energy and hustle with Nene out. Instead they have played one of their worst games of the season. If the Bulls would have won today, I think Washington would have gone into a bit of a panic and the Bulls would have fed off that in the next couple of games. 

I really think the Wizards dodged a bullet with Nene's stupidity.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*

Bulls seemed to stop caring about playing defense unless it's in times of desperations. Poor effort again.


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## taco_daddy (Jun 13, 2004)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*

Thibs is just too balls to the wall. I just thought of something completely ironic. Everyone says that Thibs should treat the regular season more like Pop. Pop isn't out to win every single regular season game and is okay with resting players and losing certain games so that players are fresh for the playoffs.

By Pop not putting the pedal to the metal every single game, he ended up with the best record overall this year. Heck, he's had that or close to it for the last few years. Thibs, Mr. Balls to the Wall, came in at 12th overall this year. Granted, no Rose, but still. 

The Bulls will never win a championship by running a 7 man rotation full steam for 82 games a season and leaving the players plum tired and exasperated by the time the playoffs start. Thibs can't ratchet down the intensity. He's probably the guy that would race you to the light because he couldn't stand for you to beat him to the intersection.

Thibs won't rest players, won't adjust rotations, won't give guys a break, and won't give very many bench players a chance to play in a game. It's not all on Thibs. He has to work with the players he has. Washington just seems to be a better team this year. I just think we'd be a better team if we focused more getting talent than just being the hardest working team.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



taco_daddy said:


> Thibs is just too balls to the wall. I just thought of something completely ironic. Everyone says that Thibs should treat the regular season more like Pop. Pop isn't out to win every single regular season game and is okay with resting players and losing certain games so that players are fresh for the playoffs.
> 
> By Pop not putting the pedal to the metal every single game, he ended up with the best record overall this year. Heck, he's had that or close to it for the last few years. Thibs, Mr. Balls to the Wall, came in at 12th overall this year. Granted, no Rose, but still.
> 
> ...


I hear what you're saying, but with regard to the first two paragraphs - in Thibs only seasons with Rose we did end up having the best record in basketball (a 62 win season followed up by the shortened season), tied with San Antonio both years if I'm not mistaken.

I get frustrated with Thibs' rotations too... and I've been complaining about them in this series a bit, but this is really just dancing around the real issue. The problem isn't that he's playing guys too many minutes or not going deep enough into his bench... it is _who _he has playing those excessive minutes... and by that, I mean, we just don't have the horses. While I might do something different here and there, in a vacuum, I don't have a problem with playing your starting guys heavy minutes. For example, Phil Jackson played Kobe and Gasol about 38-40 minutes a night in the playoffs (and regular season) during their last title run and always relied heavily on certain guys when he was with the Bulls as well. Billups, Hamilton and Ben Wallace all played 38-40 minutes a night in the playoffs for the champion Pistons, 35-38 in the regular season. Deng and then Butler are really the only two that he's been leaning on for big time minutes... Noah plays 35 a night, but I don't have an issue with that. 

Thibs just doesn't really have anyone to rely on. I shouldn't go that far... defensively, he's got a lot of guys to rely on. Our team of defensive role players (Noah, Gibson, Butler, Hinrich all play major minutes and all fit that description in a way) with three one-dimensional offensive role players (Boozer, Dunleavy, Augustine) just isn't going to cut it as a 7-8 man rotation. We need to give Thibs some guys that can play on both ends, and probably just as importantly, we need multiple players that can create, take and make their own shots.


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## Fergus (Oct 2, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*

I think the Wizards came out with the focus I wanted from the Bulls. The Bulls defensive effort was surprisingly poor at times, which completely surprised me. I am not going to blame it on poor rotations or lack or rest, but it was poor. 

In the post game interviews, Wizards coach Randy Whitman said his message to his players was move the ball and make the simple plays. Unfortunately, the Bulls could not seem to stop the simple play.

On offense, I did not like to see so many players standing around. 

For the last several years I have been a big supporter of Coach Thibodeau, but this has not been a very good series for him.


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## mvP to the Wee (Jul 14, 2007)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*

I would like to see Taj start over Boozer. Although Taj is getting minutes, this was one of those games I wouldn't mind playing him 40 minutes. I mean something like Gibson on till like the 5min mark of the 1st, then bring in Boozer. Then in the 2nd quarter bring Taj back on for Noah, let Noah rest till like the 7 minute mark in the 2nd and bring him back in. Rinse and repeat in the 2nd half. I'd also like to see Brewer over Snell. We need defense, that's where we're getting killed.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*

Noah has been crap the entire playoffs. It doesn't matter who he guards, they have been scoring on him. Bulls fans always blame Boozer, but how bout directing some of that ire at Noah's bad play.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



HKF said:


> Noah has been crap the entire playoffs. It doesn't matter who he guards, they have been scoring on him. Bulls fans always blame Boozer, but how bout directing some of that ire at Noah's bad play.


Which is why I found giving him Defensive player of the year to be laughable. 

As for the Thibs bashing, lets just sum it up quickly. No Rose for the season, traded Deng, lost bench depth from the previous years and Boozer has aged himself into an overpaid role player.... AND YET Thibs took a team led by DJ freaking Augustin to a 4th seed in playoffs. 

Blame him for playing guys too much, blame him for his flat out refusal to trust younger players. But, blaming him for this series... That's just dumb.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



thebizkit69u said:


> Which is why I found giving him Defensive player of the year to be laughable.
> 
> As for the Thibs bashing, lets just sum it up quickly. No Rose for the season, traded Deng, lost bench depth from the previous years and Boozer has aged himself into an overpaid role player.... AND YET Thibs took a team led by DJ freaking Augustin to a 4th seed in playoffs.
> 
> Blame him for playing guys too much, blame him for his flat out refusal to trust younger players. But, blaming him for this series... That's just dumb.


I am not "blaming" Thibs for the series, I am just saying he is getting out coached. There are other factors at play why the Bulls are going to lose this series, the major one being that Washington is simply more talented than the Bulls and peaked at just the right time. Doesn't change the fact that Thibs is getting out coached. From what I have seen he's been very slow to make adjustments and is sticking to the rigid plan he has in place.

As for Noah, he certainly hasn't stepped up enough overall and you can pin some of the blame on him. However that doesn't mean him winning DPOY is "laughable" when you objectively look at his performance in the 82-game regular season. Unlike the Wizards, he is NOT peaking at the right time (maybe peaked too early in the season) and clearly struggles against Nene.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (3)*

Noah hasn't been great, but some of that on the offensive end is Washington's propensity for double teaming him and trapping him in the high post (and, because we don't have any real viable options on offense this is a pretty effective strategy). Defensively I think he's struggled with the size of Nene and Gortat a bit, but other than a dreadful game 1 I actually think he's been alright...most of our defensive failings have been team defensive failings. We're leaving guys open for corner threes on slow/late/never arriving defensive rotations (which is really uncharacteristic of us), the Wizards have exploited the match up with whoever doesn't draw Jimmy Butler on the perimeter and we've got this problem with John Wall... he's too quick for Hinrich and too big for Augustin. Add it up and we've looked off-balance a bit defensively as a team. Noah is the conductor of the defense, so he definitely gets some of the blame... but he's being asked to cover for Dunleavy, Augustin and others while battling multiple 7 footers.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



yodurk said:


> I am not "blaming" Thibs for the series, I am just saying he is getting out coached. There are other factors at play why the Bulls are going to lose this series, the major one being that Washington is simply more talented than the Bulls and peaked at just the right time. Doesn't change the fact that Thibs is getting out coached. From what I have seen he's been very slow to make adjustments and is sticking to the rigid plan he has in place.
> 
> As for Noah, he certainly hasn't stepped up enough overall and you can pin some of the blame on him. However that doesn't mean him winning DPOY is "laughable" when you objectively look at his performance in the 82-game regular season. Unlike the Wizards, he is NOT peaking at the right time (maybe peaked too early in the season) and clearly struggles against Nene.


Hes not getting out-coached. You basically got it right by saying that Washington is just more talented. I even said BEFORE the series even started that this is a horrible match-up for the Bulls. No amount of great coaching was going to win this series for the Bulls. The offense lives and dies by what DJ and Dunleavy do, relying on that in a playoff series is a recipe for disaster. 

Seriously, the nit picking for a team that was destined to lose, yet over-performed is silly. 

Noah struggles against legit centers, not just Nene. Like I said before, I think Noah is a versatile defender and damn good help defender who fits into the TEAM defensive scheme perfectly. But, in no way do I think hes a great individual defender, Taj is leaps and bounds a better man defender.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



thebizkit69u said:


> Hes not getting out-coached. You basically got it right by saying that Washington is just more talented. I even said BEFORE the series even started that this is a horrible match-up for the Bulls. No amount of great coaching was going to win this series for the Bulls. The offense lives and dies by what DJ and Dunleavy do, relying on that in a playoff series is a recipe for disaster.



I think Thibs is amazing. Friggin' love the guy. I don't know that I want to use the term "outcoached," because it is relative to the other team. I would just simply say that he has performed very poorly in this series.

The team basically lost the overtime game because Thibs refused to make any adjustments, which caused the Bulls to be riding players who were both (a) super exhausted, and (b) not offensively inclined at a time when the Bulls desperately needed scoring.

Further, given that Carlos Boozer has been way, way less effective than the player he was during the regular season (who was already of dubious value given his apparent decline), the failure to put Gibson in the starting rotation at least as of Game 4 was a poor coaching decision. The Bulls huge problem has been getting in big holes to start games. That should tell you that you need to shake up the starting lineup in order to overcome that deficiency. Given that Carlos wasn't giving you any scoring and has been an utter sieve defensively, it was time to get Taj into the starting rotation. If nothing else, Taj should've started the 2nd half after exploding in the first.

Look, I get that Thibs wants to ride the horse that brung him. He doesn't want to change a rotation that has been very stable over the course of the season. I admire that he believes his players can fight through this. But as you rightly pointed out, the Bulls have some matchup problems against Washington's personnel, and adjusting to those differences would serve him well. Heck, Boozer has long been a guy who has beasted against poor competition, while disappearing against quality bigs. Given his ineptitude over the first three games, why not adjust so that he's coming off the bench and playing against Washington's 2nd unit.

Anyway, I'm not sure these adjustments would swing the series for the Bulls, but to act like this coaching job has been good is simply ignoring the truth. Both the players and Thibs have underperformed.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



jnrjr79 said:


> > The team basically lost the overtime game because Thibs refused to make any adjustments, which caused the Bulls to be riding players who were both (a) super exhausted, and (b) not offensively inclined at a time when the Bulls desperately needed scoring.
> 
> 
> You know who else was riding their players... Washington. The Bulls played Noah and Butler huge minutes, but those guys can't score anyways, any amount of rest wasn't going to magically make those guys score points. You also seem to forget that Dunleavy passed up a ton of shots in that game as well.
> ...


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



thebizkit69u said:


> Hes not getting out-coached. You basically got it right by saying that Washington is just more talented. I even said BEFORE the series even started that this is a horrible match-up for the Bulls. No amount of great coaching was going to win this series for the Bulls. The offense lives and dies by what DJ and Dunleavy do, relying on that in a playoff series is a recipe for disaster.
> 
> Seriously, the nit picking for a team that was destined to lose, yet over-performed is silly.
> 
> Noah struggles against legit centers, not just Nene. Like I said before, I think Noah is a versatile defender and damn good help defender who fits into the TEAM defensive scheme perfectly. But, in no way do I think hes a great individual defender, Taj is leaps and bounds a better man defender.


Well, do you think Thibs is out coaching Whitman then? I certainly don't think so...Whitman has applied some really good strategies against us that we didn't encounter much during the regular season. And he's done it on both ends of the court, even our defense hasn't been good. Thibs hasn't even gotten our defense to work effectively and that's the lynchpin of this entire team identity.

I agree Washington (in hindsight) is a bad matchup. I didn't know enough about them going into this series; still had them pinned as a young team that tries to outscore their opponents. I had no idea their defense was this good, but lo and behold they were top 10 in regular season defensive efficiency. The Bulls struggle against effective 2-way teams...Washington is sort of like the Miami Heat lite in that sense.

You are being too hard on Noah and also underselling DJ Augustin's talents. But no sense debating that further.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



thebizkit69u said:


> You know who else was riding their players... Washington. The Bulls played Noah and Butler huge minutes, but those guys can't score anyways, any amount of rest wasn't going to magically make those guys score points. You also seem to forget that Dunleavy passed up a ton of shots in that game as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You seem to be approaching this in a blanket manner, when really my issues with Thibs coaching this series has been situational. That is there have been countless situations arising mid-game where an adjustment is needed and Thibs doesn't adjust. Like I keep saying, he is married to his system and will live and die by it. Yes Washington is more talented but the Bulls, even as limited as they are, should be putting up more of a fight than this, it's really that simple. You make it sound like this is the Milwaukee Bucks roster...not the case, this team didn't win 48 games by sheer will, there is some talent here and enough to certainly push Washington harder than we've seen. It's not just about the scores or stats, just watching the games it's been clear they've controlled the whole series from the get go, which only a Mike Dunleavy shooting clinic saved us from getting swept. If this were the Miami Heat then I would expect this, but it's not...this is a young inexperienced Washington team that doesn't have a premium superstar on their roster.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



thebizkit69u said:


> You know who else was riding their players... Washington. The Bulls played Noah and Butler huge minutes, but those guys can't score anyways, any amount of rest wasn't going to magically make those guys score points. You also seem to forget that Dunleavy passed up a ton of shots in that game as well.


Did you even bother to check your facts? Nobody on Washington played more than 43 minutes. The only players that did were Ariza, Beal, and Wall. Everyone else was sub-40. That means every Wizards player got at least 10 minutes (nearly a full quarter) of rest. Jimmy Buckets got 0 minutes.

And the entire point here is that when Butler is so gassed he can't effectively defend, the fact that he "can't score anyways" is why his presence on the floor is no longer generating a positive return for the team. He either should have been yanked on overtime, or, even more sensibly, rested at some point rather than playing the entire 53 minutes. 



> Then you are ending up playing Gibson 45 minutes a game because you aren't putting Boozer in the fourth anyways. Again, I don't see how starting Gibson makes a difference in the grand scheme of things.


If you don't see how starting games 15-20 points in the hole is something you'd want to resolve, then I don't know how to help you. And it isn't factually correct to say that starting him means he would go 45 minutes a game.



> Taj has been feasting on the Wizards reserves, why change that?


Because he can likely do well against their first teamers. He has certainly shown an ability against their starters in addition to the reserves. NBA teams mostly try to start their best players for a reason.



> His coaching has been fine. Should he be more open to trying different things? Sure. But look at that bench... Lets not kid ourselves into believing that Jimmer, Mike James, Amundsen, Snell, Brewer or Nazir are the answer to beating the Wizards.


I agree with you here. Like I said before, I'm not sure that making the right adjustments would change the outcome of the series. I doubt it. But I do think it could've swung game 2, and then you have a 2-2 series, which would be a much different dynamic. The coach's job is to put the team in the best position to win. I don't think that has occurred, even if the outcome would be the same.



> Even if the Bulls played small offensive ball and put in Dunleavy, Jimmer, Agustin and Taj, it doesn't change the fact that the Wizards will just score right there with that lineup, if not score more because of the defensive liabilities out there.


Sure, but the Bulls would score more, too, presumably. Anyway, I'm not advocating for Jimmer, necessarily, but it is clear to me that two adjustments need to be made: (1) rest for Jimmy, and (2) Taj eating up even more Boozer minutes, particularly from the get-go.



> Just be happy that Thibs took this scrap heap as far as he did. NO OTHER coach would have been able to do this.



As I have been incredibly clear in acknowledging, I think Thibs is a phenomenal coach. I agree there are likely no other coaches that would have gotten as many regular season wins out of this team. That doesn't mean you still might not have some criticism of his playoff rotations. Nuance is ok, y'know?


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



jnrjr79 said:


> Did you even bother to check your facts? Nobody on Washington played more than 43 minutes. The only players that did were Ariza, Beal, and Wall. Everyone else was sub-40. That means every Wizards player got at least 10 minutes (nearly a full quarter) of rest. Jimmy Buckets got 0 minutes.


3 Wizards players played over 40 minutes. Bulls only played 2 guys over 40. Even if Butler played 35 minutes, it would have made no difference on the outcome.



> And the entire point here is that when Butler is so gassed he can't effectively defend, the fact that he "can't score anyways" is why his presence on the floor is no longer generating a positive return for the team. He either should have been yanked on overtime, or, even more sensibly, rested at some point rather than playing the entire 53 minutes.


And play who? Jimmy was gassed sure, but to say we lost that game because Butler played 50 minutes is silly. He played 48 minutes in a playoff win over the Heat last year and nobody complained... Heck he played 6 over 45 minute games in last season's playoffs. Hes played in 1 so far. 




> If you don't see how starting games 15-20 points in the hole is something you'd want to resolve, then I don't know how to help you. And it isn't factually correct to say that starting him means he would go 45 minutes a game.


The very idea that Thibs hasn't tried to RESOLVE these slow starts, is not giving the guy any credit. Judging by the fact that he plays Noah and Butler over 40 minutes a game, why wouldn't he play his best defender and post player big minutes? 



> Because he can likely do well against their first teamers. He has certainly shown an ability against their starters in addition to the reserves. NBA teams mostly try to start their best players for a reason.


At the end of the day, the minutes are the minutes. Taj is getting starter minutes, I don't see how "Starting" him all of a sudden changes the current outcomes. 



> I agree with you here. Like I said before, I'm not sure that making the right adjustments would change the outcome of the series. I doubt it. But I do think it could've swung game 2, and then you have a 2-2 series, which would be a much different dynamic. The coach's job is to put the team in the best position to win. I don't think that has occurred, even if the outcome would be the same.


They had every opportunity to win a game in which Nene was out, that was a gift and they could not capitalize. The writing is on the wall, and I really think Bulls fans are just over-thinking the series. The Wizards are just the better team. 




> As I have been incredibly clear in acknowledging, I think Thibs is a phenomenal coach. I agree there are likely no other coaches that would have gotten as many regular season wins out of this team. That doesn't mean you still might not have some criticism of his playoff rotations. Nuance is ok, y'know?


I agree with the rotational criticisms. But again, looking at this series as a impartial observer, it doesn't change the what the real problems are here. The Bulls can't score enough.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*

Gee look, the very same thing happened again tonight. But yeah, I'm wrong.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*

Hey look now, Thibs just changed his rotation to remove Boozer early in favor of Taj. Apparently he disagrees with you about his rotations, too.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (2)*



jnrjr79 said:


> Hey look now, Thibs just changed his rotation to remove Boozer early in favor of Taj. Apparently he disagrees with you about his rotations, too.


3-10 shooting.... bad bad bad.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (3)*

Well that whole tanking thing I was for all season sure sounds better now doesn't it?


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (3)*



thebizkit69u said:


> Well that whole tanking thing I was for all season sure sounds better now doesn't it?


You were not on an island. Most (including me) agreed with you. But obviously it wasn't viable at a certain point.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (3)*



jnrjr79 said:


> You were not on an island. Most (including me) agreed with you. But obviously it wasn't viable at a certain point.


Unfortunately yeah, it almost feels like the season was one big exhibition season with no reward whatsoever. 

Sad that the season was what it was, but moving forward I really liked what Thibs said during his post game press conference. He was very aware of the Bulls issues and I really think the Bulls will put a big effort into getting some offensive weapons in the off-season.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (3)*



thebizkit69u said:


> Unfortunately yeah, it almost feels like the season was one big exhibition season with no reward whatsoever.
> 
> Sad that the season was what it was, but moving forward I really liked what Thibs said during his post game press conference. He was very aware of the Bulls issues and I really think the Bulls will put a big effort into getting some offensive weapons in the off-season.


Man, I was thinking the same thing. Thibs really gets what this team needs. You might remember in his press conference after last season he stressed that the Bulls needed to acquire shooters. I like that he holds his thoughts about roster construction until after the season, but then opens up.

He also name-checked guys who had a good year, but didn't mention Carlos. I am sure he's desperately hoping Boozer will be out of here.

It really was an exhibition season. With Rose gone, all of a sudden you knew there was a 0% chance of a championship, so you're relegated to playing for "nice" things, like Noah winning DPOY and some fun games against the Heat, but can't go after the meaningful prize. It was a fun regular season (once I finally gave up on the tank, recognizing that Thibs was too damn good a coach), but you knew it would come to an end in the playoffs. While I'm happy for the team on some level, I really need to see this team get back to a contender level. Doing that is going to require making a pretty good splash this offseason. The team desperately needs a guy who can create for himself and who, unlike Derrick, is not 6'3''.

What's funny is that had the Bulls been able to beat Washington, with ATL about to knock out Indy, it looks like a deeper playoff run could have happened. It was about as soft a run to the ECF as you could have. I figure we'll probably see the Wiz in the ECF at this point.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (3)*



jnrjr79 said:


> Man, I was thinking the same thing. Thibs really gets what this team needs. You might remember in his press conference after last season he stressed that the Bulls needed to acquire shooters. I like that he holds his thoughts about roster construction until after the season, but then opens up.
> 
> He also name-checked guys who had a good year, but didn't mention Carlos. I am sure he's desperately hoping Boozer will be out of here.
> 
> ...


I totally caught Thibs not mentioning Boozer in that presser. The writing is on the wall, he's gone. 

The last two seasons have proved that you need more than Rose to win. I think the bulls are very aware of this. BUT, the question is can they bring in a player who can make a significant impact? I know Anthony if a big target, but they have to be very cautious and avoid paying him too much and giving up too much to get him.

It's going to be a very interesting off season and arguably the most important off-season in recent memory, in terms of gritting back into title contention.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (3)*



thebizkit69u said:


> Well that whole tanking thing I was for all season sure sounds better now doesn't it?


I was also on the pro-tank camp once Rose went down, FWIW. Rare for me, but for this draft class I wanted it.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (3)*



thebizkit69u said:


> I totally caught Thibs not mentioning Boozer in that presser. The writing is on the wall, he's gone.
> 
> The last two seasons have proved that you need more than Rose to win. I think the bulls are very aware of this. BUT, the question is can they bring in a player who can make a significant impact? I know Anthony if a big target, but they have to be very cautious and avoid paying him too much and giving up too much to get him.
> 
> It's going to be a very interesting off season and arguably the most important off-season in recent memory, in terms of gritting back into title contention.


I think Boozer is likely gone. My pipe dream is he's used as filler (large expiring) in a Melo S&T where we give New York a nice package of assets so they can get Phil's rebuild going in a positive direction, and the Bulls fill a win-now type of need. But New York has literally zero need for Boozer (Amare) and even though a buyout is possible, they would be paying a lot of luxury tax.

As for Rose needing help, I thought that was clear after the 2011 playoff loss to the Heat, even pre-injury. The problem is that options have been very limited the past few off-seasons when you have an injured superstar occupying 1/3 of your entire salary cap and several other good players locked into long-term deals.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (3)*



thebizkit69u said:


> I totally caught Thibs not mentioning Boozer in that presser. The writing is on the wall, he's gone.


Sure seems that way. They'll keep him around long enough to try to trade him (and need to do that for Anthony sign & trade negotiations), but all signs point to the amnesty being used. It damn well better be. Deadline is 7/16, I believe.



> The last two seasons have proved that you need more than Rose to win. I think the bulls are very aware of this. BUT, the question is can they bring in a player who can make a significant impact? I know Anthony if a big target, but they have to be very cautious and avoid paying him too much and giving up too much to get him.


You definitely do have to avoid that, but the Bulls are pretty stacked with tradeable pieces that might get a sign & trade done. If Boozer is amnestied and you essentially need to shed more salary, then things look more troubling.



> It's going to be a very interesting off season and arguably the most important off-season in recent memory, in terms of gritting back into title contention.


I really can't think of a more important offseason in my adult life. You have some major pieces but really need another major piece to get it done. You probably have one or two offseasons (not even considering when you'll have cap and trade flexibility) to put it together at this point.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (3)*



yodurk said:


> I think Boozer is likely gone. My pipe dream is he's used as filler (large expiring) in a Melo S&T where we give New York a nice package of assets so they can get Phil's rebuild going in a positive direction, and the Bulls fill a win-now type of need. But New York has literally zero need for Boozer (Amare) and even though a buyout is possible, they would be paying a lot of luxury tax.


If Melo is going to leave, NY should absolutely do a S&T for Boozer and suck up the luxury tax. 

Presumably, the Bulls' trade for Melo would include one or both of this year's picks plus other desirable assets in addition to Boozer's bloated deal. Even if Melo goes, NY is still capped out next year and will suck and have no flexibility. Boozer will come off the books with everyone else, leaving NY with lots of flexibility heading in to the 2016 campaign. I don't know if Dolan would take the luxury tax hit, but he should. It gives the Knicks the best chance to return to competitiveness.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Playoffs 2014; First Round: CHICAGO BULLS (1) v. Washington Wizards (3)*



jnrjr79 said:


> If Melo is going to leave, NY should absolutely do a S&T for Boozer and suck up the luxury tax.
> 
> Presumably, the Bulls' trade for Melo would include one or both of this year's picks plus other desirable assets in addition to Boozer's bloated deal. Even if Melo goes, NY is still capped out next year and will suck and have no flexibility. Boozer will come off the books with everyone else, leaving NY with lots of flexibility heading in to the 2016 campaign. I don't know if Dolan would take the luxury tax hit, but he should. It gives the Knicks the best chance to return to competitiveness.


I agree...if Phil is thinking big picture, and assuming Melo wants to come to Chicago, he should accept Boozer's contract in the package. Think about it:

- If Melo stays, they will remain capped out for another 5 years and locked into mediocrity for just as long. Melo is also 30, not a spring chicken.

- If Melo leaves, the Knicks either: (a) lose him for nothing, or (b) perform a S&T.

- If S&T happens, they are REQUIRED to match salaries somewhat closely if I am not mistaken (partly depends how far under salary cap Bulls are). Melo's starting salary will be huge, like $20M...that's a hard figure to match without throwing Boozer into the mix. It's also just a 1-yr hit, whereas Taj, Noah, etc. would all be multiple year hits. We could throw them multiple draft picks and maybe a decent contributing player as compensation. 

IMO, Phil should take a blank slate approach and build the roster his way. The Bulls have assets that would align well with that plan. Though easy for me to say.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

As much as I would welcome Anthony here with open arms and fully understanding that offense is our biggest need, I just can't see how a S&T deal gets us closer to a title. 

As a flat out free agent signing, sure. But the financial commitment and considering what we would give up for Anthony.... man that's a killer.

NY would be looking for Taj, multiple first rounders, Mirotic and probably Butler. Put in a 20 million cap hit for Melo and the bulls would be in practically the same spot the Knicks are, substituting a constantly injured Rose for Amare of course.

If it works, it's a thing of beauty..... but, if it doesn't the bulls would be in a hole for a very long time.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> As much as I would welcome Anthony here with open arms and fully understanding that offense is our biggest need, I just can't see how a S&T deal gets us closer to a title.
> 
> As a flat out free agent signing, sure. But the financial commitment and considering what we would give up for Anthony.... man that's a killer.
> 
> ...


What are you assuming we sign him for as a FA? The amount of cap space we would have simply by amnestying Boozer and not bringing Mirotic over (but not dumping Taj for nothing)? I agree that that scenario best benefits the Bulls, but I can't see it playing out. Anthony has said he'll take less money, but I don't know that it'll be _that_ much less.

I think you're right on what NY "would be looking for," but they don't really have the leverage to get it. My guess is the most the Bulls would offer would be Boozer's expiring + 2-3 first rounders + one of Butler, Taj, and Mirotic. The Bulls would still be pretty darn stacked after making that deal.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> What are you assuming we sign him for as a FA? The amount of cap space we would have simply by amnestying Boozer and not bringing Mirotic over (but not dumping Taj for nothing)? I agree that that scenario best benefits the Bulls, but I can't see it playing out. Anthony has said he'll take less money, but I don't know that it'll be _that_ much less.
> 
> I think you're right on what NY "would be looking for," but they don't really have the leverage to get it. My guess is the most the Bulls would offer would be Boozer's expiring + 2-3 first rounders + one of Butler, Taj, and Mirotic. The Bulls would still be pretty darn stacked after making that deal.


The trade aspect I'm not a ton worried about what we would be giving up for Anthony, but combine that with what he could sign in a S&T, I'm just not comfortable with that. Paying Rose and Anthony almost half of our payroll... I'm just not comfortable with that. 

As for what he would sign for. Well the rumors from the Bulls are that they wont sign him unless he takes a discount, so whatever that is.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

Frankly speaking I am glad to see that season is over, before getting a heart attack. No battles for championship and no high draft pick…"great".

The only good thing - was departure of Deng. Hopefully we can get rid of Boozer soon.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> The trade aspect I'm not a ton worried about what we would be giving up for Anthony, but combine that with what he could sign in a S&T, I'm just not comfortable with that. Paying Rose and Anthony almost half of our payroll... I'm just not comfortable with that.
> 
> As for what he would sign for. Well the rumors from the Bulls are that they wont sign him unless he takes a discount, so whatever that is.



Interestingly, I was watching the NBA TV ticker last night while watching the playoffs and there was a blurb indicating Phil Jackson has had his first meeting with Melo and he indicated his preference is that Melo come back to NY at a reduced salary so that they can surround him with other players.

If NY isn't going to pay him his max, one has to assume he's really going to be in play.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I find it really hard to believe that Melo would give any notable discount. Remember there was speculation that his wife was going to make the decision to stay/leave New York, which tells me this isn't just Melo wanting to win, it's also about cashing in on the final max deal of his career. He stands to lose a ton of money (upwards of $30M if I'm not mistaken) by signing a max free agent contract, versus re-signing with the Knicks or doing the S&T option. 

The Knicks can walk away with a nice package as compensation for supporting a Melo S&T. An expiring Boozer contract to make that deal work under cap rules is not going to kill them, especially with how much tax they've been paying the past 10+ years for a bad-to-mediocre team. They likely would reach a buyout agreement with Boozer anyways to save a little cash (Boozer would come out ahead by signing for the difference elsewhere), and then keep the assets. That asset package could include:

- #16 and/or #19 picks in 2014 draft (strong draft class)
- Bulls' 2015 1st rounder
- Cavs 1st round trade swap acquired from Deng trade
- Rights to Mirotic (hopefully not, but have to consider it)
- Jimmy Butler (cheap young productive player)
- Mike Dunleavy (cheap short-term vet)

Sure, they are not likely to get a star out of this, unless Mirotic really pans out, however they really need pieces after being shut out of the draft the past few years, and this provides some malleable options for Phil to shape the roster to his liking. Alot better than losing Melo for nothing...alot better.

To be clear I am NOT expecting this to happen, just saying it would be in New York's best interests for the long term, IMO.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Trading Melo is the absolutely best option for the Knicks future. Trading for Melo could be disastrous for the bulls if they give up too much.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

yodurk said:


> He stands to lose a ton of money (upwards of $30M if I'm not mistaken) by signing a max free agent contract, versus re-signing with the Knicks or doing the S&T option.



Everyone says this, and it always drives me crazy. When people bandy about the $30M number, that is not reflecting just the difference in salary year-to-year, but rather comparing a 4-year deal with a 5-year deal. He isn't losing $30M because some other team will pay him to play basketball in that fifth year. He's losing the difference in salary years 1-4, and then the difference between a max year 5 and whatever he gets on his new deal. 

He's still losing something in that fifth year, but not the entire $20+M he would make, which really inflates the number.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> Trading Melo is the absolutely best option for the Knicks future. Trading for Melo could be disastrous for the bulls if they give up too much.



While I'm with you in the abstract, the Bulls have maintained "flexibility" since the days of Tyson and Eddy. At some point, you have to finally consolidate some assets for a second star and try to win that championship. I think a trade under certain scenarios works better than essentially dumping Taj and keeping Mirotic in Europe for another year.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Everyone says this, and it always drives me crazy. When people bandy about the $30M number, that is not reflecting just the difference in salary year-to-year, but rather comparing a 4-year deal with a 5-year deal. He isn't losing $30M because some other team will pay him to play basketball in that fifth year. He's losing the difference in salary years 1-4, and then the difference between a max year 5 and whatever he gets on his new deal.
> 
> He's still losing something in that fifth year, but not the entire $20+M he would make, which really inflates the number.


I thought free agents can sign 5-year deals with either new or current teams? Did that change in the new CBA?

My understanding (which could certainly be wrong) was Melo would have something like a 5-yr, $100M deal max for a new team without bird rights (similar to what Amare signed in 2010), whereas it would be 5-yr, $130M for the current team with bird rights (higher starting salary, higher % annual raises).

Let me know what correct #'s are if you have them.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

yodurk said:


> I thought free agents can sign 5-year deals with either new or current teams? Did that change in the new CBA?
> 
> My understanding (which could certainly be wrong) was Melo would have something like a 5-yr, $100M deal max for a new team without bird rights (similar to what Amare signed in 2010), whereas it would be 5-yr, $130M for the current team with bird rights (higher starting salary, higher % annual raises).
> 
> Let me know what correct #'s are if you have them.



The Bulls can only sign Melo to a 4-year deal with 4.5% raises. The Knicks can sign him to a 5-year deal with 7.5% raises.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q54


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Thanks...so I assume starting salary is the same at roughly $20M max for Melo?

If so I did some quick math and that's only ~$5M difference over the 4-yr span from 2014-2018. Assuming Melo would still be good enough to lock in that 5th year at a very high salary in 2018...just keep in mind that's not a given since he will be entering his 15th season at that point! (have to remind myself Melo is no spring chicken and may only give us a 3-yr title window)

Another strategy might be to give him an opt out clause after year 3 so he can renegotiate the contract for another few years, or we part ways if it's not working out for both sides.


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