# 2004 Combine Results for Lottery Potentials!



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Player reps	vert	lane agility

Childress 11	36”	11.95 sec
Deng 5	31.5”	11.46
Gordon 12	37.5”	11.28
Harris 5	37”	11.03
Howard 7	35.5”	11.21
Humphries	22	36”	11.33
Iguodala 4	34.5”	11.17
Jackson 13	36”	11.1
Jefferson 3	30”	13.08
Livingston	0	30”	10.72
Nelson 15	33.5”	10.95
Okafor 22	34”	12.32
Ramos 5	26.5”	12.61
JR Smith 5 35.5" 10.93
Josh Smith 12	39.5”	11.43
Snyder 19	35”	10.79

From Chad Ford/Insider.


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## AdamIllman (May 12, 2003)

Deng 5 reps??? :no: Jefferson 3??? 


Snyder 19????:yes:


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

THIRTY-NINE-AND-ONE-HALF inch vert? That's insane, Josh Smith!


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Other notes from Mr. Ford:

Nate Robinson was the best athlete in the draft with a 43.5” vertical (!!!), 13 reps and 10.75 lane agility. Wow and wow again. Kirk Snyder was second. Wow, he has great lateral quickness. Humphries finished 4th, Okafor 8th, and Jameer Nelson 10th.

As far as non lotto prospects, Tony Allen was 3rd, Tim Bowers 5th, Ricky Paulding 6th, Andre Barrett 7th, Luis Flores 9th. 

Duhon had the best lane agility score at 10.45 seconds.

Biedrins, Podkolzine, Monya, Araujo, Swift, Wright, Khryapa, Varejao and Telfair were not tested.

Snyder and Humphries helped themselves, but Ford says Jefferson and Deng took the biggest hits. 

Okafor and Howard are a draw athletically.

JR Smith’s vertical is not as high as was his reputation.


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## belgian (Feb 21, 2004)

Some remarkable results:
Kris Humpries (36") has got a higher vert than Iguodala (34.5") ?
Shaun Livingston is faster than Jameer Nelson ?


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## Seven (Oct 10, 2002)

Ramos = Non Athletic stiff. No way he goes top 20 anymore.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>belgian</b>!
> 
> Shaun Livingston is faster than Jameer Nelson ?


8 inches taller and longer legs. Those are huge advantages in Livingston's favor.

However, Nelson is no TJ Ford, AI or Tony Parker with the rock.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

I wouldn't put too much into it. 2 years ago Nene was like #2 and Amare was only #10 or so but quite obviously in a game Amare is definately more athletic than Nene. No question.

Also what about Al Jefferson? The next Amare? Better than Amare?

LOL! 30" vertical only and just 3 reps.

Also that top 10 by Ford hardly tells you who the best athlete is.

Josh Smith has 5.5" vertical on Okafor, a better agility test but obviously Okafor should get more reps than a 18 year old highschool kid that is going to play 2/3 and hasn't hit the weigth room really.

Strength has little to do with athleticism anyway.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> 
> Strength has little to do with athleticism anyway.


Agree and disagree here. With the proper leg, calf and thigh development you can turn yourself into a great athlete. Jefferson has always had baby phat on him, but so did Kendrick Perkins and Danny Ainge and the strength and conditioning coaches of the Celtics have totally molded his body into something new.

Once Jefferson gets into camp to physically change his physique, his athleticism can definitely improve. Most of the athleticism you have though, tends to be God given.


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## TasminMitchell (Jun 8, 2004)

Damn JR Smith got exposed. 44 inch vertical my ***. But wow, Kris Humphries is a beast! Him and Luke Jackson are showing that white men can jump.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TasminMitchell</b>!
> But wow, Kris Humphries is a beast! Him and Luke Jackson are showing that white men can jump.


Kris Humphries is black (or bi-racial). Black father/white mother.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Also you don't know if everyone was 100% healthy.

I remember when we drafted Amare he had like some harmstring problems and shoulder problems that also limited his workouts.

Or some guys who already have a promise or their sights set on a specific team might be holding back even if it costs them some money.


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## jdg (Jun 13, 2003)

sorry if i'm living under a rock here, but how does the lane agility test work?

Anyways, Humphries has to be the most impressive of the lottery potentials there. Those Nate Robinson numbers are jaw-dropping, but his short arms help him with the reps. 

I woulda liked to see Livingstone doing the reps test. It's 185 they put on right? Wasn't is him that struggled with 135? Oh well, the kid is gonna be great in my mind. Strength can be added. He already has what can't be taught: great court vision, height, etc.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

I'm pretty un-impressed with Al Jefferson's numbers. No way he should go ahead of Humphries.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

Humphries stock keeps rising, what with the height and now athleticism.

It's always cool when guys become better prospects overnight like this.


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## fugazy11 (Apr 28, 2004)

I thought Jefferson had an NBA Ready Body? 3 reps of 185 is not nba ready..im 6-2 and can do 185 around 15x without even feeling anything, thought it might be a little harder for him but 3 reps is pathetic for someone with an nba ready body... also humprhies suprised me too, 22 reps for him? maybe hes been hitting the weight room


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fugazy11</b>!
> I thought Jefferson had an NBA Ready Body? 3 reps of 185 is not nba ready..im 6-2 and can do 185 around 15x without even feeling anything, thought it might be a little harder for him but 3 reps is pathetic for someone with an nba ready body... also humprhies suprised me too, 22 reps for him? maybe hes been hitting the weight room


Shorter arms are better for the bench press. It's the reason you don't see many bodybuilders over 6'1.


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## fugazy11 (Apr 28, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Shorter arms are better for the bench press. It's the reason you don't see many bodybuilders over 6'1.


yea very true but okafor did 22, and jeffersion who supposedly has an nba ready body did 3 so thats where it makes u wonder.


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

Interesting situation with the top-billed SFs. Deng and Iggy both have strength on their resumes, yet skinny Josh Childress benches more than them? And then they move laterally better than skinny Josh Childress? Awwuuuh? I dunno, not too high on all three of them before certainly now after this combine.

I'm going to have to say no Deng you to Deng at no 3, or Childress or Iggy for that matter. I think I'm more firmly int the Livingston, Gordon camps ahead of those two. And I think that Jackson, Snyder, and especially Smith will probably be picked later yet seem like better prospects to me after workouts and such.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fugazy11</b>!
> 
> 
> yea very true but okafor did 22, and jeffersion who supposedly has an nba ready body did 3 so thats where it makes u wonder.


Jefferson is a HS kid. Do you think he's had nearly the weightlifting experience that Okafor has had? 

Jefferson's body/frame is there even if his strength isn't top notch.


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## jdg (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Jefferson is a HS kid. Do you think he's had nearly the weightlifting experience that Okafor has had?
> ...


OK, I know these tests are overrated, and with long arms, benching gets harder, but does anyone else think that most of these numbers should be higher. I am the same age as Jefferson, I'm 6'2 and only 170 lbs, have an average wingspan and a few months ago, before I got mono and my workout routine got shot to hell, I could do two sets of 12 reps at 155 pounds. Now, I've always been a lot stronger than my size would suggest, but never NBA prospect type freak. Maybe I just expect too much of these kids.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I have no idea what I could do now, but I do remember that when I was a 17 year old kick who actually worked out, I could bench 135. I remember that because at the time that's about what I weighed.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

All the college guys faired better than the highschool kids which isn't a surprise. I think if Howard's number were measured to Okafor's as a freshman there would be no doubt. 

Livingston is quicker laterally than guys much smaller than he was. He was quicker than Jameer Nelson and Ben Gordon which is impressive. Having that kinda 1st step is gonna give him a real edge. The fact that he hasn't lifted weights helped him there. Gordon and Nelson probably lost some lateral quickness with the strength they added through weight training. 

For someone whose supposed to be a gym rat Deng doesn't have much strength or hops. 

I think that hops and strength aren't as big a deal as people are making it out to be. Length is more important than hops and strength is relative in the players understanding how to use it. 

Josh Smith I think really helped himslef. For all the knocks he gets for lack of work ethic and hustle it looks like he wasn't afraid to work hard and hit the weights and get them numbers looking good very impressive from that standpoint. 


To me Lateral quickness means a whole lot for guards and forwards. Childress's lack of lateral quickness is very troubling. He has the hops and much better strength but his lack of lateral quickness means he could have rouble guarding the sg's in the NBA. 

Iggy's numbers are a bit confusing but it sort of makes sense. He never really WoWed amyone in college with his talent although always looking the part with his size. He does more shoulders and arms than bench which is understandable. 

*We need to see other draft class results of PROVEN NBA players to compare how these numbers translate. *


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## Starbury03 (Aug 12, 2003)

I dont care about these number put themon the court and that is how I would pick who I want.


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## sov82 (Nov 5, 2003)

*been saying it all along..*

I've been saying it all along, Deng is not athletic enough to be a star in the league. He should be a solid contributor but won't ever be a star in my opinion.

Not much talk about Gordon here...but he had a very nice well-rounded workout. I've also been impressed with Snyder. Saw him play once in person last year early in the season...and he played very well.


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## BBallFan (Jul 13, 2002)

Who would have guessed that Luke Jackson would perform better at every single test given than Iguodala?


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## CerambyX (Jun 15, 2004)

Well, I am not quiet shure, but I think Biedrins had 15 reps and 34 inch vert, and I think that it is a very good result for a around 7 footer with long arms.


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## jdg (Jun 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jazzy1</b>!
> For someone whose supposed to be a gym rat Deng doesn't have much strength or hops.
> 
> *We need to see other draft class results of PROVEN NBA players to compare how these numbers translate. *


When I hear gym rat, I think of a guy that doesn't really have the physical tools (ie. strength and hops) but can shoot the lights out and has a high bball IQ, which are things you get when spending all your time in the gym.
Maybe my definition is off, but to me, guys like Stockton are the ultimate gym rats.

I do agree with the other statement I quoted there. Anyone got a link?


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## sonny22 (Dec 28, 2003)

Being a weightlifter and being a basketball player are apples and oranges. Like I said before Jefferson has never lifted weights before, so he isnt used to lifting like that. I still guarantee when he is going to the hole, noone will knock him off his path. You guys put too much emphasis on theese "workout warriors". Show me something in a real game.


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## ivo_krka (Jan 29, 2004)

IMO out of this tests there are few player whose draft stock could be improved and some who showed how great athletes they could become. Snyder, Josh Smith, JR Smith, Nelson, Livingston (should improve his strenght), Humphries, Gordon and especially Howard (superb movement) really impressed me.

And everyone is talking how Jefferson didn't lift weights during his life, but on the other hand Howard did manage to lift 185 for 7 times.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

*Re: Re: 2004 Combine Results for Lottery Potentials!*



> Originally posted by <b>ivo_krka</b>!
> 
> And everyone is talking how Jefferson didn't lift weights during his life, but on the other hand Howard did manage to lift 185 for 7 times.


This is easily explainable. Every HS in America is not built with the same standards. Dwight goes to a Christian Academy (that has money), and he can work out in a nice facility or use the GA Tech facility if he wanted to be, being that he is a top recruit. 

Al Jefferson is from Prentiss, MS, about as podunk as you can get. If the school is in a small town, there is no guarantee that the HS is going to be great. 

HS in the suburbs and private/catholic schools have the money to have a great weight facility, but schools in rural areas don't always have that. Especially for basketball.


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## sonny22 (Dec 28, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: 2004 Combine Results for Lottery Potentials!*



> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> This is easily explainable. Every HS in America is not built with the same standards. Dwight goes to a Christian Academy (that has money), and he can work out in a nice facility or use the GA Tech facility if he wanted to be, being that he is a top recruit.
> ...



Well said, thats why its scary to think how Jefferson will look when he is in a good weight lifting program. All the hs players lifted under 10 times except Josh Smith. Hmmmm... now dont you guys think that has something to do with him being at a high school that trains like a college? There is no way in hell that Josh Smith is stronger than Howard or Jefferson. If you notice that, minus Humphries who has probably been lifting since junior high, the higher the classification th eplayer is, the more times he lifted 185. Thats only b/c they train like that and are used to lifting weights.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Jefferson has been exposed. I was never impressed by him in the All-Star games and wasn't blinded by the stats and dunks.

Seriously, a 30 inch vertical, 3 reps, and the worst lateral quickness time of anyone on the list? Including PJ Ramos? Look, Devin Harris put up 2 more reps than him. Does it LOOK like Devin Harris has more strength than Jefferson? 3 is pathetic. His vertical shows that he isn't as explosive as people have been saying, and that 13+ seconds is just horrible. And people saying that he plays better than he works out are wrong. These are his best case numbers, he's going to be even slower and less explosive in actual games.

Humphries is a proven player at the highest non-NBA level and posesses the athleticism that Jefferson lacks (and if you buy the college makes guys stronger arguement, realize that Humphries has only been in college for a year; how much stronger do you really think he got in the last year?). Humphries realized he wasn't ready for the NBA out of high school, too bad Big Al is going to embarass himself for at least 3 years. And the common factor of all high school draft picks turned superstars is ATHLETICISM, which Al clearly lacks.

Al Jefferson = 1 inch taller and much weaker James Lang.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Nimreitz</b>!
> Humphries is a proven player at the highest non-NBA level and posesses the athleticism that Jefferson lacks (and if you buy the college makes guys stronger arguement, realize that Humphries has only been in college for a year; how much stronger do you really think he got in the last year?).


True. A Humphries possessed quite an impressive physique before he even stepped onto a college court.

Sure these numbers dont translate directly onto the court, but they do give an indication of the overall athleticism of a player. And Jefferson appears to be a very average athlete and in today's NBA, few average athletes really excel.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Don't get too caught up in these numbers. Some of the worst busts in NBA history had great numbers. What you do on the court is the only thing that matters. 

Sam Cassell probably can't lift 185 twice ,probably has a 30inch verticle, and is probably one of the slowest lateral testers but he'd give you 30 points at the drop of a dime. 

Understanding of the game ,heart and hustle mean much more than any of these numbers can possibly mean.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Livingston 0 30” 10.72


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

That a way muscles, and people said he was strong?


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## sonny22 (Dec 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nimreitz</b>!
> Jefferson has been exposed. I was never impressed by him in the All-Star games and wasn't blinded by the stats and dunks.
> 
> Seriously, a 30 inch vertical, 3 reps, and the worst lateral quickness time of anyone on the list? Including PJ Ramos? Look, Devin Harris put up 3 more reps than him. Does it LOOK like Devin Harris has more strength than Jefferson? 3 is pathetic. His vertical shows that he isn't as explosive as people have been saying, and that 13+ seconds is just horrible. And people saying that he plays better than he works out are wrong. These are his best case numbers, he's going to be even slower and less explosive in actual games.
> ...



You should change your name to NIMROD asap. I never put much faith in workout warriors.


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## Dreamteam29 (Apr 4, 2004)

These tests don't always mean much . . . for example, Ander Iguodala. When you watch him play compared to Childress or Luke Jackson, who looks more athletic to you? 

You can't measure explosiveness in these tests, or first step, or speed with a ball, etc. It also doesn't show their body control, how quick someone jumps . . how high they can jump without using all their effort to jump.

Also, this is a standing vert. Without a step, some guys jump waaaaaaay higher if they get just a small run, an example is Micheal "Wild Thing" Wilson from the Globetrotters (the guy who dunked on a 12 foot net" had 'only' a 38 inch standing vert, but if he got to run a bit he could jump around 50 inches (supposedly).


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dreamteam29</b>!
> 
> 
> Also, this is a standing vert. Without a step, some guys jump waaaaaaay higher if they get just a small run, an example is Micheal "Wild Thing" Wilson from the Globetrotters (the guy who dunked on a 12 foot net" had 'only' a 38 inch standing vert, but if he got to run a bit he could jump around 50 inches (supposedly).


When he played for Memphis, Larry Finch had set plays for points off of alley-oops just for him. No one could get the ball except him.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>sonny22</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> You should change your name to NIMROD asap. I never put much faith in workout warriors.


And I never put too much stock in High Schoolers with average physical tools and a limited understanding of the game (because he played for a low division school and didn't see much). Kwame sure seemed like a damn good player, and he HAD the physical tools! Jefferson? I don't know. Name the last successful player straight out of high school who wasn't a very good athlete.

Only time will tell who was right, but we can't jump to conclusions right away, such as after the first season if he rides the pine every minute, or breaks out. Darko may still be amazing and Mighty Mouse won Rookie of the Year (not that he's a bad player, just not close to All-Star caliber).


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## aj_lakers (May 18, 2003)

It all comes down to the program you have been in for the last twelve months - ie. big name school - good results, expensive HS - decent results, normal HS - poor results. Many of them will be a lot stronger and agile by the end of the summer (HS's that is) after a couple of months with conditioning and strength coaches. 

You also cannot downgrade the draft position posturing that goes on this time of year, if something looks uncharacteristic it may very well be. For example Jefferson, i think he could do more reps when he was 15, i guess we won't know til draft night. Mind you, i think this often only applies to players in the lottery fridge/mid first range, as most early picks do care about the deal and the number pick (ie. size of contract) whereas mid rounders are being told by agents its better to do what the gm wants and make sure you get guarenteed money.

Finally, let them play, it tells you more than any test ever will.


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## AZwildcats4 (Feb 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Seven</b>!
> Ramos = Non Athletic stiff. No way he goes top 20 anymore.


Ramos 5 26.5” 12.61

26 inches! that seems pretty good for a 7'4 guy, and 12.61 is better than Jefferson and close to Ofafor's time.


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## OwnTheBlocks (Jun 10, 2003)

Al Jefferson has a 9'2 standing reach so his 30" standing vertical puts him 20" above the rim off of a standing jump. Calling him unathletic or an average athlete is ridiculous. Ramos is 7'4 and with his 9'3 1/2 inch standing reach, he is only 18" above the rim despite being half a foot taller.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

30" inch standing vert for a big man is not bad at all. jefferson gets up and throws down monster dunks VERY regularly. He just plays ball; maybe he should have played less and worked out more but he's in good shape and is only going to get better in this regard. 

Is Jefferson ready to play good post defense in the NBA? That's a much more important issue than the results of this combine.


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## Lope31 (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> I wouldn't put too much into it. 2 years ago Nene was like #2 and Amare was only #10 or so but quite obviously in a game Amare is definately more athletic than Nene. No question.


Amare is a beast I agree with you there but Nene is no slouch. I've barely watched Nene and can tell he is an athlete. What is so impressive about him is how quickly he can jump. Although Stoudamire can jump higher I bet Nene can keep going up and up and up.


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## Mr.Harris (Oct 11, 2003)

from what I've seen amare do in the last suns televised game on espn this past season, he can go back up quickly as well


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## bigpoppa*UK (Nov 26, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> When he played for Memphis, Larry Finch had set plays for points off of alley-oops just for him. No one could get the ball except him.



ronnie fields 6`3 with 48" vert

verified by his boy kevin garnett

now that is hops!


i got a small clip of ronnie on a certain sharing program-azaa quite a while ago and he threw down a one handed windmill and he was WAAAAY above the rim, i mean nearly to his waist!


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