# GAME 13: 11/24 vs. Knicks



## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

The Celtics are at home tonight against the Knicks, looking to end the four game losing streak that started in New York against those very same Knickerbockers. In that game, the Celtics blew a 16 point half time lead and lost by three. Allan Houston led the Knicks with 26 points, Keith Van Horn had 21 and 7 rebounds, and Kurt Thomas was the last of the double digit scorers with 12 poitns and 17 rebounds, including ten offensive boards. The teams combined for zero fastbreak points. Tony Battie, say what you will about him, led the Celtics with 10 rebounds including six offensive boards in that game. Paul Pierce meanwhile is coming off his best game of the year with 33 points, 7 boards, 6 assists, and 3 steals to go with the five turnovers that have been focused on by this board.

If the Celtics run tonight, they can win this game because the Knicks are quite possibly the slowest team assembled since the 50s. If the Celtics go for another boring offensive performance and play halfcourt ball, we're screwed.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

What a poor second quarter performance. They can't even pull away from the Knicks junior varsity.

McCarty hit a couple of 3's but gave some of the points back with matador defense on Shandon Anderson. For once he was not a negative factor, and he runs the floor. Battie was awful, as usual.

The C's best players in the first half were Baker and Welsch. Blount also played well defensively. Welsch understands how to play up tempo basketball.

The Knicks junior varsity wins the 3rd quarter 34-12. Are we rebuilding yet? Half the seats at the Fleet center are already empty. 

Wyc Grosbeck is sitting courtside. He must be enjoying this almost as much as I am.

The crowd was simply stunned at the end of the game. I think it is time for personnel changes. The Celtics are one of the worst teams in the league right now.


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## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

Wyc has only himself to blame.

What happened to this trade would only be a small step back?

The only thing I ever agreed with Rick Pitino on was this team didn't need to get younger. We needed experience but when we had that experience Danny traded it away for nothing.
Lottery picks are not going to win us anything.

I thought we sold more tickets this year then any other year? So where are all the people?


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> Wyc has only himself to blame.


No, he has Ainge and O'Brien to blame. O'Brien is coaching like a man rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

I'm going to give them a few more games. If they do not play Perkins and Hunter and get rid of the trash on the roster, I'm going to tune out for the year. That's the way I lived through John Y. Brown and M.L. Carr. I shouldn't have to go through it more than twice, but I guess that's life.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EVERYONE</b>!
> 
> Yes, we might have lost, but we are better as a TEAM.
> 
> This is a better TEAM then last year.


I dunno why I'm posting this but I just think it was funny as hell.

Good game, I still think we can make the finals.


So we lost to the Bulls, Knicks, NO (back to back on the road), Knicks (after a 3 days rest). Also Philly, in a game AI had a horrible shooting %, and where Glenn Robinson and Derrick Coleman didn't play.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

Also there is no positives since we are NOT developing our rookies and/or youngsters.


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## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

I blame Wyc and Danny.
Wyc hired Danny to get rid of Antoine. He also hired Danny instead of Larry Bird because he didn't want to share the limelight.

Looks like that works out for Larry because now Wyc can have his limelight. All to himself.

If this continues, the media will start caring once the Patriots are thru. Otherwise the Celtics won't be called out at all.




> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> No, he has Ainge and O'Brien to blame. O'Brien is coaching like a man rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
> ...


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> I blame Wyc and Danny.
> Wyc hired Danny to get rid of Antoine. He also hired Danny instead of Larry Bird because he didn't want to share the limelight.
> 
> ...


I can't blaim the Owners....before Danny was hired the Owners were talking about player "a", Danny came in and said "Player 'a' sucks"....

I don't think the C's will be called out at all thought, as soon as the Pats finish the Sox will take over, and Danny Ainge has done the same thing we have been doing for the past decade+.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

I don't think anyone will be caring after tonight. The crowd (what was left of it) was absolutely stunned. They won't be selling very many tickets from here on out.

Well Danny, if you are listening, here is what to do:

1. Trade Pierce to Milwaukee for Tony Kukoc (expiring contract) and Michael Redd, assuming that Milwaukee would do that deal. Don't wait until Pierce's trade value drops to zero. It has become quite clear that without Walker, Pierce is just another player.

2. Give Battie, McCarty and Jumaine Jones their unconditional releases. Giving these guys playing time is like throwing good money after bad. Just eat the salaries. Collectively they make only half of what Grant Hill makes, so look at the bright side.

3. Commit to giving Banks and Brown 30+ minutes each per game. Bring Perkins and Hunter off IR and commit to giving each of them, plus Welsch, at least 20 minutes per game. If O'Brien won't go along with this plan, fire him.

4. Do your homework on next year's lottery pick. With two picks, you might even be able to trade up into the top five to get a player like Emeka Okafor or Tiago Splitter.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*Wyc Grousbeck*

Is a fool. They overpaid for the team, and now they raise ticket prices? Why would anyone pay more to see this team than last year's?

People are turning away in droves.

John, pay more attention. Waltah was helping out--he was probably the best guy out there tonight. Kedrick actually fell asleep a couple of times on defense.

Jiri Welsch is afraid to shoot the jump shot, and teams know it.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> I don't think anyone will be caring after tonight. The crowd (what was left of it) was absolutely stunned. They won't be selling very many tickets from here on out.
> 
> Well Danny, if you are listening, here is what to do:
> ...


1. As you all know, I don't like Pierce very much, I mean he's a great player and all but I don't like him because of the fact that he gets WAY too much credit and never gets blaimed. But I don't want to trade Pierce at all. We have already traded our (well it looks like our #1 player) number 2 player, so why trade number 1 too?

2. Tony "I am a feather" Battie, should get traded, Walter had one nice game out of 13, but thats not enough. Jones I can't even judge yet--another DNP-CD.

3. Totaly agree.

4. We'll get a number 5 pick even without dealing both of them up.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Wyc Grousbeck*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> 
> John, pay more attention. Waltah was helping out--he was probably the best guy out there tonight. Kedrick actually fell asleep a couple of times on defense.


1 out of 13, nice for Walter to show up this year.

Brown can be thought, he's what 22?


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: Wyc Grousbeck*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> Is a fool. They overpaid for the team, and now they raise ticket prices? Why would anyone pay more to see this team than last year's?
> 
> People are turning away in droves.
> ...


McCarty absolutely sucked on defense. How many points did Shandon Anderson have-- 30? He must have scored 20 when McCarty was guarding him.

In fact, the Celtics' defensive performance in the third quarter was the worst I've seen since the Dino Radja days. The Knicks had so many open 16-18 foot jump shots that I thought they were playing horse. Every team in the league is laughing at the Celtics right now.

As for Welsch, he just has to keep shooting. Don't hesitate, don't think,-- if you've got the shot, shoot it. If you pass it to Pierce, he'll miss too.

Welsch, by the way, was probably their leading rebounder tonight, and other than his horrible shooting in the second half, he played a nice floor game.

I'm not blaming Ainge-- yet. The problem isn't with the players he brought in. The problem is primarily with the stiffs they already had.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: Wyc Grousbeck*



> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> As for Welsch, he just has to keep shooting. Don't hesitate, don't think,-- if you've got the shot, shoot it. If you pass it to Pierce, he'll miss too.


:laugh: NOW THATS A QUOTE. :laugh:


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## Anima (Jun 3, 2003)

*Re: Re: Wyc Grousbeck*



> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> Welsch, by the way, was probably their leading rebounder tonight, and other than his horrible shooting in the second half, he played a nice floor game.


He was 3rd on the team with 6. Only Baker (12) and Pierce (10) had more.

Blount and Battie combined for four rebounds....


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> 4. We'll get a number 5 pick even without dealing both of them up.


Well, you never know how those lottery balls are going to bounce, particularly when David Stern is running the show.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*You know not of what you speak*

Waltah is a convenient target, and I hate to blame the coaches, but I am going to. If you are a SF on this team, it is hard to get into a rhythm. 

Defensively, Waltah is not to blame. It is the Celtics style to blitz the pick and roll. That is a good idea against some point guards, but Howard Eisley? Should we really worry that he is going to kill us? 

Eisley gets attacked by his man, James, and Blount, which leaves Kurt Thomas running free to a spot-up jumper. The pass goes over to him, and another player (Baker) switches over. Then it goes to a wide-open Anderson in the corner, and Waltah, who switched over to front Dikembe in place of Baker, runs out at the last minute. I mean, look at the game Mutombo had tonight. It was the Celtics defensive scheme. Certainly not McCarty.

I'll say this about McCarty. At least he's not afraid to shoot (see Welsch, Jiri and Brown, Kedrick).

Ball movement has stagnated and we are taking too many jumpers, too. 

Kudos to Waltah McCarty. Kudos to Mark Blount for playing through the pain. Kudos to Mike James and Eric Williams. Kudos to Jiri for the effort. But he's gotta shoot.

I personally kind of cringed when I heard Ainge had given O'Brien an extension. I don't believe he is the coach to play Ainge's style. If Ainge wants to get rid of him, let's hope ownership will eat the remaining years on O'Brien's contract and bring in another coach (Doc Rivers?) who can get us going. Every few years you gotta change your coach, or it gets old.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: You know not of what you speak*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> Kudos to Mike James


He's still in the rotation? AND STARTING?



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> let's hope ownership will eat the remaining years on O'Brien's contract and bring in another coach (Doc Rivers?) who can get us going.


Whats the difference for Doc comming from Orlando (T-Mac), to Boston (Paul Pierce)? If he can't do it there, he certainly can't do it here.


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## Truth34 (May 28, 2003)

*The Difference is....*

That if you think Mike James and co. are bad, try having guys like Steven Hunter, Andrew DeClerq and Tyronne Lue being starters or getting serious minutes on your team.

The guy is a former coach of the year. I was just throwing his name out there. 

Whom would you suggest replace James? What else do we have? Banks deserves more minutes, sure, but not the lion's share.

I think the point about the Celtics defensive style was lost on semantics about who could replace Jim O'Brien. Just about anybody would do.


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## lastlaugh (Oct 30, 2003)

*Re: You know not of what you speak*

According to you everyone is to blame except Paul Pierce.




> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> Waltah is a convenient target, and I hate to blame the coaches, but I am going to. If you are a SF on this team, it is hard to get into a rhythm.
> 
> Defensively, Waltah is not to blame. It is the Celtics style to blitz the pick and roll. That is a good idea against some point guards, but Howard Eisley? Should we really worry that he is going to kill us?
> ...


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

*Re: You know not of what you speak*



> Originally posted by <b>Truth34</b>!
> Defensively, Waltah is not to blame. It was the Celtics defensive scheme. Certainly not McCarty.


No, it was McCarty (among others). Dick Harter's defensive schemes are among the best in the league. But when you let your man drive around you on a consistent basis while standing there flatfooted, the scheme becomes irrelevant.

Walter did get another rebound, though, that's three in two games. Not bad for him.


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## PatBateman (May 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>lastlaugh</b>!
> Wyc has only himself to blame.
> 
> What happened to this trade would only be a small step back?
> ...


Not a bad point, but how can you even tell we would play weel with youth when all OB will play is the vets and not give a freakin' chance!!! fire ob, it is time.:upset: :upset:


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## Clockwork24 (Nov 21, 2003)

The performance is laughable. :upset:


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## mrsister (Sep 9, 2002)

OB's rotations looked Isaih Thomas-like tonight. He had some head-scratching substitutions that just destroyed the flow they had in the first quarter. There were many times where I looked at the players and didn't know who I wanted to take a shot. It was basically the lesser of five evils. Nobody could score points in the half court offense. That's why OB really needs to stress running. That's the only time these players can get points. If Pierce isn't shooting well, and they don't get the ball to Vinny, then you better pray the three is falling for someone, because they can't do anything else. Our centers can't post up. They can only pop out and hit a jumper. Our SFs other than Williams don't want to shoot the ball (though McCarty was better tonight). Welsch can never get into a rhythm. Pierce is not shooting well, even when he gets good looks. He did make a better effort to run, but it didn't produce much. And now the one staple of this team, defense, is looking pretty shoddy in the second half of games. Honestly, I think Raef will be a big boost to the team when he comes back. And I mean that in relative terms. To most teams, the boost would not be big, but to this team, I think he can provide some missing pieces, namely offense and rebounding. He's not great, but he's better than most options on this team. Before he left, they were 4-4. Now they're 5-8. I'm not saying he's a saviour, but at this point, I'll taking anything I can get. 

I do think coaching is a big issue. If Don Chaney can get the Knicks without their two best players to perform like that, then it shouldn't be too difficult to get the Celtics to play well enough to beat those Knicks and many other teams. Even with their two best players, the Knicks are a bad team. I see so many teams getting open looks against the Celtics and wonder why the Celtics can't do that, too. It happens for parts of games, and it gives me hope, but then they abandon what was working so well. It's maddening. Most of our players can't create for themselves, but they're capable of hitting open shots. They just don't get very many. Maybe it's the coach. Then again, maybe the players aren't listening. OB did yell "Don't stand still!" at one point during the game, but they continued to do it. Pierce came off screens several times, but I didn't see many others doing it. It's the old make-a-half-circle-around-the-perimeter game and hope nobody's near you when you get the ball, so you can take a three. Pathetic. The preseason and the beginning of the season was fun basketball to watch. What the hell happened? It's boring and frustrating now.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mrsister</b>!
> OB's rotations looked Isaih Thomas-like tonight.


Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. 




> He had some head-scratching substitutions that just destroyed the flow they had in the first quarter.


Battie and McCarty.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mrsister</b>!


Everything you said is right, but (there is always a but) the Knicks were missing 3 of their best players Van Horn, Houston, well he didn't play much the last 2 seasons but McDyess can also be a big contributer and doulbe-double threat.


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## bballin (Jun 3, 2003)

bloody hell! what happened?! I had to go to a meeting at half time, everything was looking ok, and then I see the final result. goddamnitthisseasonisreallystartingtosuck:upset:


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mrsister</b>!
> OB's rotations looked Isaih Thomas-like tonight. He had some head-scratching substitutions that just destroyed the flow they had in the first quarter. There were many times where I looked at the players and didn't know who I wanted to take a shot. It was basically the lesser of five evils. Nobody could score points in the half court offense. That's why OB really needs to stress running. That's the only time these players can get points. If Pierce isn't shooting well, and they don't get the ball to Vinny, then you better pray the three is falling for someone, because they can't do anything else. Our centers can't post up. They can only pop out and hit a jumper. Our SFs other than Williams don't want to shoot the ball (though McCarty was better tonight). Welsch can never get into a rhythm. Pierce is not shooting well, even when he gets good looks. He did make a better effort to run, but it didn't produce much. And now the one staple of this team, defense, is looking pretty shoddy in the second half of games. Honestly, I think Raef will be a big boost to the team when he comes back. And I mean that in relative terms. To most teams, the boost would not be big, but to this team, I think he can provide some missing pieces, namely offense and rebounding. He's not great, but he's better than most options on this team. Before he left, they were 4-4. Now they're 5-8. I'm not saying he's a saviour, but at this point, I'll taking anything I can get.
> 
> I do think coaching is a big issue. If Don Chaney can get the Knicks without their two best players to perform like that, then it shouldn't be too difficult to get the Celtics to play well enough to beat those Knicks and many other teams. Even with their two best players, the Knicks are a bad team. I see so many teams getting open looks against the Celtics and wonder why the Celtics can't do that, too. It happens for parts of games, and it gives me hope, but then they abandon what was working so well. It's maddening. Most of our players can't create for themselves, but they're capable of hitting open shots. They just don't get very many. Maybe it's the coach. Then again, maybe the players aren't listening. OB did yell "Don't stand still!" at one point during the game, but they continued to do it. Pierce came off screens several times, but I didn't see many others doing it. It's the old make-a-half-circle-around-the-perimeter game and hope nobody's near you when you get the ball, so you can take a three. Pathetic. The preseason and the beginning of the season was fun basketball to watch. What the hell happened? It's boring and frustrating now.


So in the end, won't we just have Larry take over and have a Rick Carlise guide us to 17 instead of Jim O'Brien? :grinning: Just a thought.


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