# Vince-sanity?



## endora60

ESPN.com is doing a breakdown of the top free agents in a pretty good class of 2007. And this interesting tidbit:



> 2. *Vince Carter*
> The Nets could give him a three-year extension for the maximum this summer, but neither side seems to be in any hurry to get it done. The delay is stoking fears that Carter will hit the market a year from now and return to North Carolina to play for the Bobcats, who will be flush with cap space.


 Opinions?


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## Mr. Hobbes

Vince Carter is a false superstar. One who you think can take you to the promised land, but never will. He's a one-sided player. You don't want to end up in a position with a star with a huge contract on a team that isn't going anywhere. Like Portland with Randolph, and Seattle with Allen, or Milwaukee with Redd.


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## MusaSK

I agree. The mess he left in Toronto was pathetic.


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## Mr. Hobbes

As much as I hate him for it, it's not just that. He's not a good defender. Even if Gerald Wallace is still here, I don't think you can have weak links on defense if you want to win in the long run.


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## ralaw

WTChan said:


> Vince Carter is a false superstar. One who you think can take you to the promised land, but never will. He's a one-sided player. You don't want to end up in a position with a star with a huge contract on a team that isn't going anywhere. Like Portland with Randolph, and Seattle with Allen, or Milwaukee with Redd.


I agree, VC is a bad fit for this team, as currently Charlotte has no clear defined superstar who could take the pressure of VC as Kidd does in NJ. Now Morrison could become that player, but he and VC in my opinion wouldn't play well together due to playing style. Now, VC in Orlando would be a much better fit due to the fact that by next summer Dwight Howard would have established himself as the clear #1 guy in Orlando.


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## endora60

Personally, I think VC is a lousy fit for _any_ squad...and I'll never trust him to do right by his team, not after the crap he pulled in Toronto. Sure, he's a rotten defender, but if he'd gone all-out and really put his heart and soul into the Raptors they'd've been a better team than they were. :curse:


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## Mr. Hobbes

VC would just hamper the development of the young guys, especially the perimeter players like Felton and Morrison.


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## Charlotte_______

The only thing he would do is really draw attention to the franchise and put fans in the seats. I say we wait build slowly and spend money on players who are an all around good player. I really wish we would have thrown some money in the direction of Joe Johnson when he was a FA I think he is going to be a real star soon.


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## endora60

Charlotte_______ said:


> The only thing he would do is really draw attention to the franchise and put fans in the seats.


Yeppers, and the Bobcats don't need that now; they have Adam Morrison. I hope they don't go out and try to reel Carter in.


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## HB

Lol as someone who has seen a lot of Vince from his mainland high days, I can only say you guys are sooooo wrong about him.


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## endora60

HB said:


> Lol as someone who has seen a lot of Vince from his mainland high days, I can only say you guys are sooooo wrong about him.


Are we? Okay, tell us why, please.


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## Diable

If you got him at a reasonable price that would be one thing,but you are only going to get him at the sort of price that leaves you incapable of doing anything else.I read that and all I thought about was Gerald and Primo.The Cats have both of those guys on bargain basement deals right now.You look at what Wallace gives you at every aspect of the game and you look at what Carter gives you.I would much rather have Wallace at 10 plus million than Carter at 16 plus million.I hate to think what Primo might cost if he has a really good season.

Mr Wallace plays the game hard and he's got a chance to get a lot better.As far as I am concerned he's a better defender than Ben Wallace and he produces at a very high level w/o ever having a play run for him.If you have Carter that really prevents you from getting the most out of Raymond because VC doesn't run the break any more and he isn't very effective unless you run Iso plays for him.

I would much rather build around Gerald,Raymond and whichever one of the bigs wants to prove himself.It's always been my stated opinion that we should pattern ourselves loosely on what the SUns do.I am not sure that Raymond can really make that happen,but I say you got a pretty good point guard who is really effective in transition.We should get some players who can run with Mr Felton and then find out how good he really is.Worst case we have an exciting basketball team compared to one that's rather unentertaining so far.


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## endora60

Diable said:


> I would much rather build around Gerald,Raymond and whichever one of the bigs wants to prove himself.


I'm betting that's Primo.



> It's always been my stated opinion that we should pattern ourselves loosely on what the SUns do.I am not sure that Raymond can really make that happen,but I say you got a pretty good point guard who is really effective in transition.We should get some players who can run with Mr Felton and then find out how good he really is.


Exactly what I've always thought: Pattern the Bobcats after the Suns. Run like mad, get those steals, and depend on a your point guard to find the open man every trip down the court. That's how I see the Bobcats functioning best.


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## HB

endora60 said:


> Are we? Okay, tell us why, please.


Diable basically summarizes the whole thing. I dont think Vince would fit well on the Charlotte team as is. At this stage of Vince's career he is more suited to playing on a team that can contend, not one just searching for its identity and thats no offense to the Bobcats.

I hear people saying he is a one dimensional superstar, he cant be trusted for what happened in Toronto lol and I find it very laughable. He made poor decisions, but he isnt the only one that has demanded a trade. IF you surround Vince with a team that can win, then he will play to his best. How many years has AI and the sixers missed the playoffs now? Is he also a one dimensional star? The league has reached a point where its absolute imperative that if you dont have talent on your team, then you arent going anywhere. The fact that Vince is a bonafide go to scorer in the league is enough for any team with title aspirations to want him.


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## HB

endora60 said:


> Personally, I think VC is a lousy fit for _any_ squad...and I'll never trust him to do right by his team, not after the crap he pulled in Toronto. Sure, he's a rotten defender, but if he'd gone all-out and really put his heart and soul into the Raptors they'd've been a better team than they were. :curse:


By the way, Vince is a pretty good defender when he sets his mind to it. At worst he is an average defender.


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## HB

WTChan said:


> Vince Carter is a false superstar. One who you think can take you to the promised land, but never will. He's a one-sided player. You don't want to end up in a position with a star with a huge contract on a team that isn't going anywhere. Like Portland with Randolph, and Seattle with Allen, or Milwaukee with Redd.


Because Stars alone make teams huh.


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## cpawfan

HB said:


> IF you surround Vince with a team that can win, then he will play to his best.


That means Vince is a role player


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## HB

cpawfan said:


> That means Vince is a role player


If you put it that way, cept for the fact that the top teams in the league must have a lot of role players disguised as stars then.


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## cpawfan

HB said:


> If you put it that way, cept for the fact that the top teams in the league must have a lot of role players disguised as stars then.


Look at the NBA finals. Wade, Shaq and Dirk all are stars. Antoine finally won something once he realized he was a role player. There is nothing wrong with being a role player. The Pistons won a championship with all role players. 

Yes, the word star is vastly over used and there are a lot of players that need to realize they are role players.


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## HB

cpawfan said:


> Look at the NBA finals. Wade, Shaq and Dirk all are stars. Antoine finally won something once he realized he was a role player. There is nothing wrong with being a role player. The Pistons won a championship with all role players.
> 
> Yes, the word star is vastly over used and there are a lot of players that need to realize they are role players.


Lol if it makes you feel any better YES Vince is a role player. You have been hinting at that for a while now anyways. What do Wade, Shaq and Dirk all have in common. Bonafide go to scorers. Now who is closer to that, Vince or Antoine


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## justasking?

HB said:


> Diable basically summarizes the whole thing. I dont think Vince would fit well on the Charlotte team as is. At this stage of Vince's career he is more suited to playing on a team that can contend, not one just searching for its identity and thats no offense to the Bobcats.
> 
> I hear people saying he is a one dimensional superstar, he cant be trusted for what happened in Toronto lol and I find it very laughable. He made poor decisions, but he isnt the only one that has demanded a trade. *IF you surround Vince with a team that can win, then he will play to his best*. How many years has AI and the sixers missed the playoffs now? Is he also a one dimensional star? The league has reached a point where its absolute imperative that if you dont have talent on your team, then you arent going anywhere. The fact that Vince is a bonafide go to scorer in the league is enough for any team with title aspirations to want him.





> *By the way, Vince is a pretty good defender when he sets his mind to it. At worst he is an average defender*.



I personally have nothing against Vince but one comment that I have been hearing or reading is that he is very inconsistent in his effort and half-hearted at times. I'm not in a position to say thats true or not, as I am not 100% familiar with his career.

HB, you know his career quite well and after reading your post, what did you mean by that statements "If you surround Vince with a team that can win, then he will play to his best." and "By the way, Vince is a pretty good defender when he sets his mind to it."? My question is, shouldn't a player always give his best and shouldn't a player always set his mind to giving his all for his team? At all times, in all games, whatever the circumstances? 

I just thought of this upon reading your posts and reconciling it with what I've heard of him in the past. I just wanted to know your opinion on this matter. 

Thanks HB. :cheers:


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## cpawfan

HB said:


> Lol if it makes you feel any better YES Vince is a role player. You have been hinting at that for a while now anyways. What do Wade, Shaq and Dirk all have in common. Bonafide go to scorers. Now who is closer to that, Vince or Antoine


I'm not hinting at anything. I've been saying it for quite some time.

Wade, Shaq and Dirk do a lot more than just act as go to scorers. While Vince's PPG were higher than Antoine's you also have to look at the multiple seasons were Antoine put up 20+ PPG, 8 RPG and 5 APG. From a stats perspective, Antoine had equally impressive seasons as Vince.


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## HB

justasking? said:


> I personally have nothing against Vince but one comment that I have been hearing or reading is that he is very inconsistent in his effort and half-hearted at times. I'm not in a position to say thats true or not, as I am not 100% familiar with his career.
> 
> HB, you know his career quite well and after reading your post, what did you mean by that statements "If you surround Vince with a team that can win, then he will play to his best." and "By the way, Vince is a pretty good defender when he sets his mind to it."? My question is, shouldn't a player always give his best and shouldn't a player always set his mind to giving his all for his team? At all times, in all games, whatever the circumstances?
> 
> I just thought of this upon reading your posts and reconciling it with what I've heard of him in the past. I just wanted to know your opinion on this matter.
> 
> Thanks HB. :cheers:


Good questions just?. Vince does have flaws as a player. His biggest problem from my stance is his personality. He is the type of player that needs motivation to play to his best. Its no coincidence that his best years have been with strong personalities surrounding him. Butch Carter, Charles Oakley and yes Jason Kidd. I think if you put him on a team like Charlotte, there really isnt going to be anyone to put him in check. Well maybe with MJ and Oakley in the front offices that might not be so. If you watched some of his games as a net, sometimes he gets down on himself and that affects his game. But also notice that some of his best games are when he is having fun on the court. Thats something playing with RJ and Kidd gives him. A team where he can play to his abilities and still have fun on the court. A few years back, a reporter asked Butch Carter what was wrong with the raps and why Vince wasnt being utilized properly. Butch said its really easy with Vince, "if you want him to play well you have to let him enjoy the game", unfortunately I cant find the link but his qoutes were along that line. I dont think he wants to sabotage any team, and the toronto incident was very unfortunate. But as a person we all know that if your mind isnt in something, there just isnt anyway you can give your best.


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## HB

cpawfan said:


> I'm not hinting at anything. I've been saying it for quite some time.
> 
> Wade, Shaq and Dirk do a lot more than just act as go to scorers. While Vince's PPG were higher than Antoine's you also have to look at the multiple seasons were Antoine put up 20+ PPG, 8 RPG and 5 APG. From a stats perspective, Antoine had equally impressive seasons as Vince.


And yet you say you are not hinting at anything. Arent you essentially comparing Vince to Antoine, or better yet their roles. Isnt that the reason why Antoine was brought up in the first place. And since when has Vince's role only been to be a go to scorer. How much opportunities does he create for those playing around him?


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## VC4MVP

Just saying, if he left NJ to go anywhere it would be Orlando, or to a contender team via Sign and trade. I agree that he would be a bad fit in charlotte. He is a bad defender, but not a horrible one, he doesnt get torched by other sg's often. He is also very streaky. At least 15 times this year, he has scored 15 in the 1st quarter, on great shooting only to go on to finish in the low-mid 20's on average shooting. Also he doesnt really fit with the youth movement in Charlotte, he will start declining slowly in about 4 years.


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## justasking?

HB said:


> Good questions just?. Vince does have flaws as a player. His biggest problem from my stance is his personality. He is the type of player that needs motivation to play to his best. Its no coincidence that his best years have been with strong personalities surrounding him. Butch Carter, Charles Oakley and yes Jason Kidd. I think if you put him on a team like Charlotte, there really isnt going to be anyone to put him in check. Well maybe with MJ and Oakley in the front offices that might not be so. If you watched some of his games as a net, sometimes he gets down on himself and that affects his game. But also notice that some of his best games are when he is having fun on the court. Thats something playing with RJ and Kidd gives him. A team where he can play to his abilities and still have fun on the court. A few years back, a reporter asked Butch Carter what was wrong with the raps and why Vince wasnt being utilized properly. Butch said its really easy with Vince, "if you want him to play well you have to let him enjoy the game", unfortunately I cant find the link but his qoutes were along that line. I dont think he wants to sabotage any team, and the toronto incident was very unfortunate. But as a person we all know that if your mind isnt in something, there just isnt anyway you can give your best.


Thank you for your response. Yes, I agree on the points you raised. In my opinion, VC is probably one of the most talented and gifted players in the NBA. How he puts those talents and gifts in perspective is a different matter. If motivated, no one can stop him. He can do almost anything on the court if he is on that frame of mind. I know he is human, and as a human being he has his flaws, but somehow I just wish that he would consistently show these gifts that he has. As popular and good as he is now, I could only imagine how great his career would be in if he'd do his best and give his best generally 100% of the time. 

Thanks again HB. :cheers:


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## cpawfan

HB said:


> And yet you say you are not hinting at anything. Arent you essentially comparing Vince to Antoine, or better yet their roles. Isnt that the reason why Antoine was brought up in the first place. And since when has Vince's role only been to be a go to scorer. How much opportunities does he create for those playing around him?


The reason for bringing up Antoine was that he is a former "star" player with multiple all-star apperances and impressive statistical seasons that finally realized he had to be a role player to win a championship. Something he hadn't figured out in Dallas. Yes, Antoine and Vince are in the same stratification of players. It is the same as talking about Ray Allen or Webber in his prime.

Vince's role has always been as the go to scorer. Yes it helps that he is a good passer and decent rebounder for his size, but he is a scoring wing just like Ray Allen.


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## HB

cpawfan said:


> The reason for bringing up Antoine was that he is a former "star" player with multiple all-star apperances and impressive statistical seasons that finally realized he had to be a role player to win a championship. Something he hadn't figured out in Dallas. Yes, Antoine and Vince are in the same stratification of players. It is the same as talking about Ray Allen or Webber in his prime.
> 
> Vince's role has always been as the go to scorer. Yes it helps that he is a good passer and decent rebounder for his size, but he is a scoring wing just like Ray Allen.


Its a free world you are certainly entitled to your opinion. Also good post just?, I tried repping you but it wouldnt let me.


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## VC4MVP

cpawfan said:


> The reason for bringing up Antoine was that he is a former "star" player with multiple all-star apperances and impressive statistical seasons that finally realized he had to be a role player to win a championship. Something he hadn't figured out in Dallas. Yes, Antoine and Vince are in the same stratification of players. It is the same as talking about Ray Allen or Webber in his prime.
> 
> Vince's role has always been as the go to scorer. Yes it helps that he is a good passer and decent rebounder for his size, but he is a scoring wing just like Ray Allen.


I really dont understand wut u r talking about Cpaw. Antoine Walker became a role player, because he was on an extremely talented team. Vince doesnt play like Antoine Walker just because he is a scorer. If he became a role player on the nets they'd be a worse team. It is just if Frank used a better offense he could play better. I doubt he calls for all those iso plays. The nets just dont have any good off-ball movement, it isnt like he is only looking to score the whole game. Antoine Walker is a chucker, he is allergic to the ball and just throws it up at the hoop every chance he gets.


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## Mr. Hobbes

HB said:


> Lol if it makes you feel any better YES Vince is a role player. You have been hinting at that for a while now anyways. What do Wade, Shaq and Dirk all have in common. Bonafide go to scorers. Now who is closer to that, Vince or Antoine


You put him in the same category as someone who has been exposed as an inadequate franchise player, and has to ride other true franchise players to a championship. Then why would Charlotte want him?


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## HB

WTChan said:


> You put him in the same category as someone who has been exposed as an inadequate franchise player, and has to ride other true franchise players to a championship. Then why would Charlotte want him?


What in the world are you taking about?


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## Mr. Hobbes

HB said:


> Because Stars alone make teams huh.


Because stars lead teams. When VC was mentioned, I assumed anyone who was signing him was going to have him lead the franchise. I never thought he would be signed as a 2nd option.


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## HB

WTChan said:


> Because stars lead teams. When VC was mentioned, I assumed anyone who was signing him was going to have him lead the franchise. I never thought he would be signed as a 2nd option.


And the point was, in the league today if you dont have a pretty talented squad it doesnt matter who you sign, you wont win squat. Do you honestly think, Wade, Shaq, or Dirk that were mentioned would lead the Bobcats to a title. Get real!


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## Jermaniac Fan

Vince wouldn't be very good pick-up by bobcats... let Morrison do the scoring!


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## shookem

Damn Vince, you could save the NBA with the talent in your pinkie finger but instead you prefer to do nothing.

If he came to the Bobcats at a very reasonable price then I'd understand it, otherwise I think it's going to cost the Cats a ton to resign their own guys in a year or two.


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## cpawfan

VC4MVP said:


> I really dont understand wut u r talking about Cpaw. Antoine Walker became a role player, because he was on an extremely talented team. Vince doesnt play like Antoine Walker just because he is a scorer. If he became a role player on the nets they'd be a worse team. It is just if Frank used a better offense he could play better. I doubt he calls for all those iso plays. The nets just dont have any good off-ball movement, it isnt like he is only looking to score the whole game. Antoine Walker is a chucker, he is allergic to the ball and just throws it up at the hoop every chance he gets.


The Nets are still a flawed team that currently needs Vince to do more than score. Just like the Sonics need Allen to do too much and the Bucks need Redd to do too much. Sure these guys can put up numbers, but that doesn't bring their team closer to the NBA finals.

Walker throughout the playoffs, to many peoples surprise, wasn't a chucker, but actually a smart basketball player that played within himself. He was a key to the Heat winning the championship. He finally accepted that he needed to do what was best for the team.


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## Mr. Hobbes

HB said:


> What in the world are you taking about?


If he comes in, what do you think he'll be? 1st or 2nd option?


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## HB

WTChan said:


> If he comes in, what do you think he'll be? 1st or 2nd option?


No doubt number one scoring option, but that still doesnt mean anything. If he isnt surrounded by a capable team, they wont go anywhere. There are many examples of star players in the league on messed up squads doing squat


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## VC4MVP

cpawfan said:


> The Nets are still a flawed team that currently needs Vince to do more than score. Just like the Sonics need Allen to do too much and the Bucks need Redd to do too much. Sure these guys can put up numbers, but that doesn't bring their team closer to the NBA finals.
> 
> Walker throughout the playoffs, to many peoples surprise, wasn't a chucker, but actually a smart basketball player that played within himself. He was a key to the Heat winning the championship. He finally accepted that he needed to do what was best for the team.


At times he was a chucker in the playoffs, at times he actually played smart and very well to my surprise. He wasnt like that always though. And please explain wut the nets need vince to do that he doesnt do. He is naturally a great passer, and can set up teammates very well, not just stats. He also rebounds well, please explain cuz i want to know wut u r talking about.


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## endora60

HB said:


> Do you honestly think, Wade, Shaq, or Dirk that were mentioned would lead the Bobcats to a title. Get real!


To a title? Perhaps not. But I'm fairly sure any one of those three--or Kobe or Nash, to be fair--could at least lead the Bobcats pretty far in the Playoffs. Not the least bit convinced Vince Carter could do that.


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## endora60

HB said:


> No doubt number one scoring option, but that still doesnt mean anything. If he isnt surrounded by a capable team, they wont go anywhere. There are many examples of star players in the league on messed up squads doing squat


Sorry, but any list that isn't Felton and Morrison as the top options isn't a list I'm interested in. Carter would be third--maybe. Thing is, with the Bobcats, he _would_ be surrounded by a capable squad; they don't have to depend on him to score.


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## cpawfan

VC4MVP said:


> At times he was a chucker in the playoffs, at times he actually played smart and very well to my surprise. He wasnt like that always though. And please explain wut the nets need vince to do that he doesnt do. He is naturally a great passer, and can set up teammates very well, not just stats. He also rebounds well, please explain cuz i want to know wut u r talking about.


1) The point about Antoine was that he did change. We know that he was a chucker before, but in the playoffs, he fulfilled his role.

2) Vince is currently doing more than just scoring because the Nets need him to do that in order to win games. However, a championship level team with Vince on it would just need Vince to score, as the rest of the team would be better. Teams with players like Vince and Ray Allen can win games when they do more than score, but they aren't going to be championship level if those teams need those players to do that.


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## HB

endora60 said:


> To a title? Perhaps not. But I'm fairly sure any one of those three--or Kobe or Nash, to be fair--could at least lead the Bobcats pretty far in the Playoffs. Not the least bit convinced Vince Carter could do that.


He and Kidd with one of the worst surrounding casts in the league lead the Nets to the playoffs two years ago. And Vince was the best player in the league the second half of that year.


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## HB

endora60 said:


> Sorry, but any list that isn't Felton and Morrison as the top options isn't a list I'm interested in. Carter would be third--maybe. Thing is, with the Bobcats, he _would_ be surrounded by a capable squad; they don't have to depend on him to score.


Well we will just wait and see how much Felton and Morrison will do together as number 1 and number 2 this year on a capable Bobcat squad. I mean come to think of it, lol you are comparing a 2 year player and a rookie to Vince Carter who has been a go to player ever since the first day he stepped in the league.


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## HB

cpawfan said:


> 1) The point about Antoine was that he did change. We know that he was a chucker before, but in the playoffs, he fulfilled his role.
> 
> 2) Vince is currently doing more than just scoring because the Nets need him to do that in order to win games. However, a championship level team with Vince on it would just need Vince to score, as the rest of the team would be better. Teams with players like Vince and Ray Allen can win games when they do more than score, but they aren't going to be championship level if those teams need those players to do that.


I agree with this


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## cpawfan

HB said:


> And Vince was the best player in the league the second half of that year.


No he wasn't


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## VC4MVP

cpawfan said:


> 1) The point about Antoine was that he did change. We know that he was a chucker before, but in the playoffs, he fulfilled his role.
> 
> 2) Vince is currently doing more than just scoring because the Nets need him to do that in order to win games. However, a championship level team with Vince on it would just need Vince to score, as the rest of the team would be better. Teams with players like Vince and Ray Allen can win games when they do more than score, but they aren't going to be championship level if those teams need those players to do that.


But vince is naturally good at doing other things besides just scoring. He is a good rebounder or passer, so why wouldnt u want to use his skills to his full ability. Its not like the nets are make or break by the number of rebounds or assists he gets. I cant say i agree with ur statement right now.


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## cpawfan

VC4MVP said:


> But vince is naturally good at doing other things besides just scoring. He is a good rebounder or passer, so why wouldnt u want to use his skills to his full ability. Its not like the nets are make or break by the number of rebounds or assists he gets. I cant say i agree with ur statement right now.


A team isn't going to win a championship where Vince is required to do those other things. Vince can be the leading scorer on a championship team, but he can't lead a team to the championship. Look back at the 2000 Olympics. When Vince was freed to just score, he looked great.


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## HB

cpawfan said:


> No he wasn't


John Hollinger thought he was. Or maybe you can give me examples of players who played better than him during that stretch


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## HB

cpawfan said:
 

> A team isn't going to win a championship where Vince is required to do those other things. Vince can be the leading scorer on a championship team, but he can't lead a team to the championship. Look back at the 2000 Olympics. When Vince was freed to just score, he looked great.


And who were his teammates again, and yes I agree with you although my point has to do with a capable surrounding cast certainly elevates Vince's game.


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## cpawfan

HB said:


> John Hollinger thought he was. Or maybe you can give me examples of players who played better than him during that stretch


Yes, Vince was statistically impressive and that is all Hollinger cares about. As said many times, Vince, with Kidd's assistance, was playing at an extremely high level at that point. That doesn't make him the best player.


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## HB

cpawfan said:


> Yes, Vince was statistically impressive and that is all Hollinger cares about. As said many times, Vince, with Kidd's assistance, was playing at an extremely high level at that point. That doesn't make him the best player.


OK. You still didnt mention anyone who played better than him. Kidd has and never was a scorer and there was no one on that team capable of putting up big scoring numbers except Vince. That team had no business in the playoffs, he got them there. Case settled.


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## VC4MVP

cpawfan said:


> A team isn't going to win a championship where Vince is required to do those other things. Vince can be the leading scorer on a championship team, but he can't lead a team to the championship. Look back at the 2000 Olympics. When Vince was freed to just score, he looked great.


Didnt even start watching and liking basketball till 01-02 (im only 13) but that team is no way to judge how he should play, because u r never going to have a 1/4 that many great players surrounding him. U dont have much facts supporting why vince cant win a championship when he is expected to rebound well and pass well which he naturally does. If the nets had a good bench, they would be a championship calibur team. That is what they lack.


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## cpawfan

HB said:


> OK. You still didnt mention anyone who played better than him. Kidd has and never was a scorer and there was no one on that team capable of putting up big scoring numbers except Vince. That team had no business in the playoffs, he got them there. Case settled.


I didn't mention anyone because of how you choose to approach your position. I agreed with you Vince was extremely statistically impressive, but he also had help.

No, the case isn't settled. Vince did no more to get that team to the playoffs than Kidd did. Yes, Vince put up impressive stats, but he doesn't get them without Kidd. No matter how you attempt to slice it, the stats that you want to use to demonstrate how Vince was the best also show how much Vince needed Kidd. I'd rather not do it here since this has been beaten to death in the Nets forum, but the proof is there.


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## HB

cpawfan said:


> I didn't mention anyone because of how you choose to approach your position. I agreed with you Vince was extremely statistically impressive, but he also had help.
> 
> No, the case isn't settled. Vince did no more to get that team to the playoffs than Kidd did. Yes, Vince put up impressive stats, but he doesn't get them without Kidd. No matter how you attempt to slice it, the stats that you want to use to demonstrate how Vince was the best also show how much Vince needed Kidd. I'd rather not do it here since this has been beaten to death in the Nets forum, but the proof is there.


Sigh* dont get me wrong, Kidd was very impressive during that run, matter of fact never mind we have already been through this before. You are entitled to your opinions. Vince Carter was a scorer before he played on the Nets, I dont see how Kidd was solely responsible for Vince putting up almost 30 plus per the second half of that season on a night in night out basis.


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## cpawfan

VC4MVP said:


> Didnt even start watching and liking basketball till 01-02 (im only 13) but that team is no way to judge how he should play, because u r never going to have a 1/4 that many great players surrounding him. U dont have much facts supporting why vince cant win a championship when he is expected to rebound well and pass well which he naturally does. If the nets had a good bench, they would be a championship calibur team. That is what they lack.


The Nets are more than a good bench away from a championship as Krstic still has a couple of levels of improvement to reach before that happens.

Even as great as they are, Wade and Kobe don't win championships without Shaq and the quality role players that surrounded them. Flawed teams based around scoring wings don't win championships unless MJ is involved and even then he had some pretty complete teams as far as role players go. Look at LeBron, Ray Allen, TMac, etc. they play on flawed teams and they aren't championship calibur.

Scoring wings are great, but you need a lot more than that to win a championship.


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## cpawfan

HB said:


> Sigh* dont get me wrong, Kidd was very impressive during that run, matter of fact never mind we have already been through this before. You are entitled to your opinions. Vince Carter was a scorer before he played on the Nets, I dont see how Kidd was solely responsible for Vince putting up almost 30 plus per the second half of that season on a night in night out basis.


Kidd was the difference between almost 22 PPG and almost 30 PPG. That is the impact I'm talking about. 22 is still very good, but that difference is important to that evaluation.


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## VC4MVP

cpawfan said:


> The Nets are more than a good bench away from a championship as Krstic still has a couple of levels of improvement to reach before that happens.
> 
> Even as great as they are, Wade and Kobe don't win championships without Shaq and the quality role players that surrounded them. Flawed teams based around scoring wings don't win championships unless MJ is involved and even then he had some pretty complete teams as far as role players go. Look at LeBron, Ray Allen, TMac, etc. they play on flawed teams and they aren't championship calibur.
> 
> Scoring wings are great, but you need a lot more than that to win a championship.


Last season the nets were very good, with one of the worst if not the worst bench in the nba. They very well could have made it to the ECF with a healthy RJ and unsuspended cliff, but that is another matter. Just because very few teams have won championships with the focus being scoring wings doesnt mean other cant. Also the nets looked very worn out by during the playoffs from all the minutes the starters had to play. It looks like we will agree to disagree on this one i think with a good bench the nets are definetly a championship calibur team. We are getting off topic, and should probably discuss this in another thread or by PM if u wanna continue.


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## baller213

HB said:


> Lol as someone who has seen a lot of Vince from his mainland high days, I can only say you guys are sooooo wrong about him.


I totally agree with this. I remember reading a book about vince (still 4 or so season into his career) where he said he would pay (or give up salary) to help keep a player with the raptors who didn't want to get into the luxury tax.

He gave a lot to a badly run franchise, and got nothing in return. Of course, thing were going to end badly, but for like 95% of the time the raptors were doing poorly, it wasn't vince's play, it ws rap management.


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## HB

cpawfan said:


> Kidd was the difference between almost 22 PPG and almost 30 PPG. That is the impact I'm talking about. 22 is still very good, but that difference is important to that evaluation.


Only reason I am not going to argue this, is because we have already gone through this before. Excessively for that matter too. Vince averaged 30/7/5 in the playoffs this year, most of those were of Isos. How does Jason Kidd help Vince put the ball in the basket? Vince is still the one with the ability. At the end of the day, Kidd might throw him a lob or two. But please dont get it confused that Vince needs Kidd to score.


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## Omega

ooo i live debates... i guess im too late. =[


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## cpawfan

HB said:


> Only reason I am not going to argue this, is because we have already gone through this before. Excessively for that matter too. Vince averaged 30/7/5 in the playoffs this year, most of those were of Isos. How does Jason Kidd help Vince put the ball in the basket? Vince is still the one with the ability. At the end of the day, Kidd might throw him a lob or two. But please dont get it confused that Vince needs Kidd to score.


Switching years switches the discussion. Talking about this year's playoffs, all I can say is how successful were the Nets with Vince doing that? Are you attempting to say Vince was the best player in all of the playoffs?

I didn't say Vince needs Kidd to score. What I said was Vince needs Kidd to play at the level you were putting him at. With that 30 PPG came a 24.1 3pt %.


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## HB

cpawfan said:


> Switching years switches the discussion. Talking about this year's playoffs, all I can say is how successful were the Nets with Vince doing that? Are you attempting to say Vince was the best player in all of the playoffs?
> 
> I didn't say Vince needs Kidd to score. What I said was Vince needs Kidd to play at the level you were putting him at. With that 30 PPG came a 24.1 3pt %.


Now you are just nitpicking at stuff. That year where he and Kidd took that Nets team to the playoffs. He shot over 40% from 3pt land. Wasnt Kidd on the same thing. Why didnt Kidd have the same effect on Vince this past year? The bottom line is, Vince is still the one taking those shots. He is the one with the ability, there is no way Kidd is going to direct the ball into the basket. I honestly dont even know why am still arguing this. Vince shoots, ball goes in basket or not. End of story.


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## cpawfan

HB said:


> Now you are just nitpicking at stuff. That year where he and Kidd took that Nets team to the playoffs. He shot over 40% from 3pt land. Wasnt Kidd on the same thing. Why didnt Kidd have the same effect on Vince this past year? The bottom line is, Vince is still the one taking those shots. He is the one with the ability, there is no way Kidd is going to direct the ball into the basket. I honestly dont even know why am still arguing this. Vince shoots, ball goes in basket or not. End of story.


You are switching your points. You started with Vince was the best player at the end of the 04-05 season and wanted to use Hollinger's analysis as your basis. When countered with the impact Kidd had on Vince's PPG, you have switched to talking about 05-06.

In 05-06, the Nets added RJ back to the mix and as predicted, Vince's PPG went down because there was another scoring option on the team. In the playoffs, Vince's PPG went up as his SPG went up. You even stated that a lot of that was off of isos, yet you ask why Kidd didn't have the same impact on Vince as the season before. The isos don't allow Kidd to make the game easier for Vince which honestly is Frank's fault. None of which supports your claim that Vince was the best player at the end of 04-05.

We all know Vince can score and put up other stats, but it takes more to be the best player.


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## HB

cpawfan said:


> You are switching your points. You started with Vince was the best player at the end of the 04-05 season and wanted to use Hollinger's analysis as your basis. When countered with the impact Kidd had on Vince's PPG, you have switched to talking about 05-06.
> 
> In 05-06, the Nets added RJ back to the mix and as predicted, Vince's PPG went down because there was another scoring option on the team. In the playoffs, Vince's PPG went up as his SPG went up. You even stated that a lot of that was off of isos, yet you ask why Kidd didn't have the same impact on Vince as the season before. The isos don't allow Kidd to make the game easier for Vince which honestly is Frank's fault. None of which supports your claim that Vince was the best player at the end of 04-05.
> 
> We all know Vince can score and put up other stats, but it takes more to be the best player.


Ironic that the thing am going to use to answer this is the one that most people claim Vince doesnt have. How do you measure heart? How do you measure determination? How do you measure the fact that you are trying to prove so many doubters wrong? Thats exactly what happend that 04-05 season. You can take it however you want. The Nets had no business in the playoffs that year. How many superhuman performances did Vince have? Want me to start recycling through all the tristate dailies that were praising him left and right for his nightly accolades. I daresay I dont remember any of those articles talking about Kidd rejuvenating him. Matter of fact you can thank Vince for convincing Kidd that there was still a future for him in Jersey. Am not jumping around anything, am sticking to my earlier stance. Vince played out of his mind to get the team into that 8th spot. He scored over 30 it was almost an automatic win for the nets. Wasnt there a stat or so that whenever he scored above 30, the Nets were 28-4 or something like that.


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## Mr. Hobbes

HB said:


> No doubt number one scoring option, but that still doesnt mean anything. If he isnt surrounded by a capable team, they wont go anywhere. There are many examples of star players in the league on messed up squads doing squat


What's a 'capable' team? How good must a team already be for a star to lead them? Where is the point where a team is 'too' capable, and a star like Rasheed Wallace or Walker come in from being a previous #1 to a role player?


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## Real

Aside from debating what Vince did in 2005 and his flaws as a player, I can't see Vince on the Bobcats. Basically because Vince, at 30 years old, would probably want to play on a contender. Bobcats are very young and talented, but aren't a contender. The Nets and Magic would more closely fit the bill.

And let's get one thing straight. Vince would most certainly be the no. 1 scoring option. Morrison has not yet stepped foot on a NBA floor, and Felton has not yet played an entire season as starter at PG for the Bobcats.


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## endora60

Net2 said:


> And let's get one thing straight. Vince would most certainly be the no. 1 scoring option. Morrison has not yet stepped foot on a NBA floor, and Felton has not yet played an entire season as starter at PG for the Bobcats.


And we can see how well the whole Vince-as-first-option thing has worked out, can't we? No. The Bobcats are building for the future, and that future is Felton and Morrison. Vince Carter, no matter how many points he can score, is NOT going to be the centerpiece here; we've all seen how dedicated he is (n't) to the team's he's been on. If he should go to Charlotte, he's a piece of a puzzle, not the superstar.


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## Premier

endora60 said:


> Exactly what I've always thought: Pattern the Bobcats after the Suns. Run like mad, get those steals, and depend on a your point guard to find the open man every trip down the court. That's how I see the Bobcats functioning best.


I agree, however, Adam Morrison does not excel in a transition offense. If Bickerstaff [and Jordan] were committed to a fast-break offense, Rudy Gay would've been a much better fit. Raymond Felton, Gerald Wallace, and Rudy Gay would be absolutely devestating in a high-paced offense. Perhaps Charlotte plans to use multiple offensive sets this season, running a basic motion offense with Morrisoin.


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## endora60

A high-powered transition offense may not be Morrison's greatest strength, but he's quick enough to function within it. With Felton at the point, Morrison may well be able to play that run n' gun game--and that would make the Bobcats absolutely deadly.


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## Mr. Hobbes

From what I've been hearing from the Nets boards, Carter doesn't go on fast breaks. He might not be so incompatible with Morrison after all. I still don't like Carter on this team (or in general). I'm just putting facts out there.


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## nutmeged3

Carters divorce good news for Charlotte or Orlando?



> There have been reports out of Orlando that the Magic will vigorously pursue Vince Carter next summer -- when he has the option to terminate his Nets contract and play the free-agent market for the first time -- but his future has suddenly become more difficult to discern.
> 
> According to a close friend of the Nets forward, Carter and his wife, Ellen, recently initiated divorce proceedings, which may be a major factor in his next move.
> 
> If his wife gains custody of their 1-year-old daughter and moves back to Orlando or her own hometown in South Carolina, Carter could be motivated to sign with the Magic or Charlotte Bobcats just to stay close, as both teams have substantial cap room to sign him.


LINK


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## G_Wallace#3

That will give the Bobcats a Blast of Offense


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