# Update: Cavs acquire Kevin Love, Jamel is still complaining, T-Mac injured



## Ballscientist

My opinion: the earlier the better

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/2/15/5413976/nba-trade-rumors-2014-kevin-love-andre-miller

1. Pau is not going to Sun. Lakers asking price is to steep. Pau is just taking the break.
2. Warriors offer Speights for Gary Neal
3. Suns and Rockets are very aggressive to make a deal


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## Jamel Irief

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

Love for asik?


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## Ballscientist

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

David Lee and Barnes would be good for both teams.


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## OneBadLT123

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



Jamel Irief said:


> Love for asik?


I would think it would at least need unprotected picks + T Jones and maybe Parsons to even have the wolves consider it


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## Dissonance

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

To the Suns for those all picks, future pick and a young player or two.


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## R-Star

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

It won't happen I know, but I was just thinking about the perfect fit for Kevin Love, and isn't it the Indiana Pacers?

Roy Hibbert can't rebound or score for shit. Kevin Love is an amazing scorer and rebound. He just can't defend for shit, which is Roy Hibberts specialty. Those two go together amazingly well. 

The Pacers as a whole suck on offense, to Love gets to come in and be the 1a 1b guy with Paul George as well. 


As I said, it won't happen, but that does seem like a pretty good fit does it not? Or am I just crazy?


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## RollWithEm

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

Love would be an excellent fit on any team with a rim protector, decent wing defenders, and a smart PG. The Pacers, Bulls, and Grizzlies are the best fits, IMO. Then, you have the Rockets who are lacking in the wing defense department but make up for it by bombing threes and getting to the line. Those are the 4 most logical destinations for Love... which is why he'll probably wind up anywhere but those 4 cities.


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## Bogg

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

I can't see Minnesota moving Love now - they're going to be emboldened by Portland's success in keeping Aldridge happy this year and hope to emulate that. Dieng breaking out as a real NBA center (if you think he can keep this up over a full season) is really a godsend for them, as it frees up one of their two centers for a major trade to upgrade either the small forward or point guard spot. If they can spin Pekovic into an impact player at either of those positions and/or if Rubio can improve his shooting to somewhat acceptable, they've got the makings of a playoff team next year. Otherwise you just unload Love at the deadline unless someone absolutely blows you away with an offer.


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## R-Star

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

Does anyone even want Pek though? Guys as good a defender as Love, and I mean that purely in its most insulting sense. 

Who wants a center who can't defend? Not this guy.


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## Bogg

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



R-Star said:


> Does anyone even want Pek though? Guys as good a defender as Love, and I mean that purely in its most insulting sense.
> 
> Who wants a center who can't defend? Not this guy.


That's overblown - he doesn't get up and block shots, but use him in the right scheme and he can anchor the paint well enough. Al Jefferson's anchoring a top-10 defense this year, so there's that. He'd be a really good fit in New Orleans to protect Anthony Davis, but I don't really think that any of the Pelicans' perimeter players would fit particularly well in Minny. Maybe a three-way deal where Pek goes to NO, Jrue Holiday and maybe another piece goes to Orlando, and Afflalo and Moe Harkless wind up Minnesota?


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## RollWithEm

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



Bogg said:


> That's overblown - he doesn't get up and block shots, but use him in the right scheme and he can anchor the paint well enough. Al Jefferson's anchoring a top-10 defense this year, so there's that. He'd be a really good fit in New Orleans to protect Anthony Davis, but I don't really think that any of the Pelicans' perimeter players would fit particularly well in Minny. Maybe a three-way deal where Pek goes to NO, Jrue Holiday and maybe another piece goes to Orlando, and Afflalo and Moe Harkless wind up Minnesota?


Eric Gordon plus Aminu sign-and-trade?


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## Bogg

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



RollWithEm said:


> Eric Gordon plus Aminu sign-and-trade?


Do you really want Eric Gordon and Aminu when you already have Kevin Martin and Mbah a Moute?


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## RollWithEm

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



Bogg said:


> Do you really want Eric Gordon and Aminu when you already have Kevin Martin and Mbah a Moute?


Upgrade at both positions with younger guys... yeah I would think so.


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## R-Star

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

Meh. Eric Gordon has destroyed his trade value over the years.


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## RollWithEm

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



R-Star said:


> Meh. Eric Gordon has destroyed his trade value over the years.


Pekovic's trade value isn't very high, either. (Please see your last post in this thread.)


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## E.H. Munro

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



RollWithEm said:


> Upgrade at both positions with younger guys... yeah I would think so.


Gordon is finished. His knees are jelly and he's on a max deal. At this point his value is a contract of similar worth with either one more or one less year. I would not trade a useful NBA player for him.


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## kbdullah

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



Bogg said:


> I can't see Minnesota moving Love now - they're going to be emboldened by Portland's success in keeping Aldridge happy this year and hope to emulate that. Dieng breaking out as a real NBA center (if you think he can keep this up over a full season) is really a godsend for them, as it frees up one of their two centers for a major trade to upgrade either the small forward or point guard spot. If they can spin Pekovic into an impact player at either of those positions and/or if Rubio can improve his shooting to somewhat acceptable, they've got the makings of a playoff team next year. Otherwise you just unload Love at the deadline unless someone absolutely blows you away with an offer.


Eh. There's maybe 12 teams that could have the makings of a playoff team in the West, but only 8 spots. Unless they have a way to bring in another superstar to pair w/ Love, get something for Love while you can.


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## R-Star

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



RollWithEm said:


> Pekovic's trade value isn't very high, either. (Please see your last post in this thread.)


I don't disagree. But no one wants Gordon. He has negative value at this point. They should have let him go to Phoenix.


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## Basel

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

I don't know what the point of this thread is. Kevin Love is coming to the Lakers. Whether it's via trade or free agency is to be determined.


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## RollWithEm

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



R-Star said:


> I don't disagree. But no one wants Gordon. He has negative value at this point. They should have let him go to Phoenix.


Makes you wonder where the Suns franchise would be had that happened.


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## E.H. Munro

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



Basel said:


> I don't know what the point of this thread is. Kevin Love is coming to the Lakers. Whether it's via trade or free agency is to be determined.


Personally I'm betting on a draft night trade.


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## RollWithEm

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



Basel said:


> I don't know what the point of this thread is. Kevin Love is coming to the Lakers. Whether it's via trade or free agency is to be determined.


That would likely be a bad move for his career. If he winds up with one of the 4 teams I mentioned earlier, he has a legitimate chance to win one or more titles. With the Lakers... eh.


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## l0st1

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



RollWithEm said:


> Makes you wonder where the Suns franchise would be had that happened.


Depressed and Angry.

Though I wouldn't put it past McD to have shipped his ass out by now.


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## R-Star

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



Basel said:


> I don't know what the point of this thread is. Kevin Love is coming to the Lakers. Whether it's via trade or free agency is to be determined.


I honestly wouldn't be surprised.


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## R-Star

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



RollWithEm said:


> That would likely be a bad move for his career. If he winds up with one of the 4 teams I mentioned earlier, he has a legitimate chance to win one or more titles. With the Lakers... eh.


Depends on who they get in the draft and how he pans out I guess. The years of Kobe leading you to a championship are over. Is Kevin Love on the Lakers better than Kevin Love on the Wolves right now? No. The Lakers stink right now. And Love can't even lead the Wolves to the playoffs.


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## Bogg

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



RollWithEm said:


> Upgrade at both positions with younger guys... yeah I would think so.


Are we sure Gordon's an upgrade on Martin? If I'm remembering correctly, Martin just posted a pretty good statistical year. 



kbdullah said:


> Eh. There's maybe 12 teams that could have the makings of a playoff team in the West, but only 8 spots. Unless they have a way to bring in another superstar to pair w/ Love, get something for Love while you can.


I disagree - Minnesota isn't that far off from being a playoff squad. They've dropped _a lot_ of close games the past several years and have one of the top 10-15 best players in the game in Love. The right coaching hire and one or two well-executed trades could have them right in the mix. And if they can't put together a decent season, they can always trade him at the deadline. 



Basel said:


> I don't know what the point of this thread is. Kevin Love is coming to the Lakers. Whether it's via trade or free agency is to be determined.


If the Wolves let Love hit free agency I wouldn't sleep on the Knicks, assuming Carmelo's still there. Anthony could opt-in to next year, hit free agency with everyone else in 2015, and orchestrate his own superfriends team-up in New York with a relatively clean cap sheet.


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## R-Star

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



Bogg said:


> Are we sure Gordon's an upgrade on Martin? If I'm remembering correctly, Martin just posted a pretty good statistical year.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree - Minnesota isn't that far off from being a playoff squad. They've dropped _a lot_ of close games the past several years and have one of the top 10-15 best players in the game in Love. The right coaching hire and one or two well-executed trades could have them right in the mix. And if they can't put together a decent season, they can always trade him at the deadline.


Where's the big improvement in their lineup to be made though?

I'd assume Rubio, Love and Dieng are the core at this point. Martin seems like hes been playing well although I admittedly haven't been trying to keep up with the Wolves. So you could maybe upgrade the 2, 3 or the bench.

I don't know. It just seems clear at this point that Love is leaving. May as well try to cash your chips out before losing everything.


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## Bogg

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



R-Star said:


> Where's the big improvement in their lineup to be made though?
> 
> I'd assume Rubio, Love and Dieng are the core at this point. Martin seems like hes been playing well although I admittedly haven't been trying to keep up with the Wolves. So you could maybe upgrade the 2, 3 or the bench.


Well, that's what I'm saying - replacing Corey Brewer with Afflalo or Jeff Green and another piece is an upgrade in the vein of what Portland did this past offseason. Given the reluctance of teams to let go of franchise players, I can see Minnesota talking themselves into the idea that the right coach and the right trade can win them 7-8 more games next year in an attempt to keep Love around with a max extension.



R-Star said:


> I don't know. It just seems clear at this point that Love is leaving. May as well try to cash your chips out before losing everything.


I don't disagree - I've been saying for a while on this board that they should explore a Love for Ibaka+ megadeal for a while now. I just don't think Minnesota feels the same way.


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## hroz

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

I wonder if the Rockets would do
Asik Lin Parsons Jones
for 
Love Brewer

I am torn. 
I really want some wing defence. (Brewer) Brewer's lack of outside shot is mitigated by Loves outside game.
And Love would be awesome next to Howard.
Also need/want another 3d player.


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## MemphisX

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

I am sure the Rockets would do that and I am sure the Timberwolves would not do that deal.


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## kuba52

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



hroz said:


> I wonder if the Rockets would do
> Asik Lin Parsons Jones
> for
> Love Brewer
> 
> I am torn.
> I really want some wing defence. (Brewer) Brewer's lack of outside shot is mitigated by Loves outside game.
> And Love would be awesome next to Howard.
> Also need/want another 3d player.


If Love really wants to leave I don't see Timberwolves gets better offer. Not even sure if Rockets would be interested in giving both Parsons and Jones. When Dwight Howard was moved to Lakers two years ago best player Magic get was Afflalo (Nikola wasn't that highly regarded as he is now). Same with Chris Paul moving to Clippers. Hornets got budding star in Gordon and draft pick. 
Here they would get budding star in Parsons and two really good overpriced players that would make rotation in any team. I wonder if Wizards couldn't offer something like
Brad Beal+Otto Porter+pick(s) for Love and Brewer or Martin (or even Budinger if they think he could be healthy). Gortat with Love should play out well and John Wall is much better PG than Rubio either.


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## kbdullah

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



hroz said:


> I wonder if the Rockets would do
> Asik Lin Parsons Jones
> for
> Love Brewer
> 
> I am torn.
> I really want some wing defence. (Brewer) Brewer's lack of outside shot is mitigated by Loves outside game.
> And Love would be awesome next to Howard.
> Also need/want another 3d player.





MemphisX said:


> I am sure the Rockets would do that and I am sure the Timberwolves would not do that deal.


After he dropped 50 on them, Rockets would probably trade Parsons for Brewer straight up :2ti:


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## Da Grinch

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

in truth the logical thing to do is trade pekovic and/or love to the highest bidder

teams without good starting defensive bigs have a ceiling that is usually 1st round fodder no matter what offensive firepower they have around them.

the 1st priority should be pek over love because dieng looks ready for a bigger role.

there is nothing inherently wrong with either love or pekovic but they are a bad fit together because neither is a rim defender or even particularly good defenders in general.


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## PD

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

Love and bad contracts to Chicago for

Nirotic's right (spelling)
Bulls 2014 first
Charlotte 2014 first
And Boozer (contract filler)


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## R-Star

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

Sounds like Kev will finally be traded between now and next years traded deadline.

Wouldn't be surprised to see him move on draft day for a top 3 pick.


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## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

I really hope the Lakers remain patient and keep the lottery pick. We can't continue it mortgage the future by dealing every pick of value. Only way I'd deal the pick for Love would be if Love agreed to an extension. That's highly unlikely seeing as it wouldn't be financially prudent on his part.


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## FSH

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



R-Star said:


> Sounds like Kev will finally be traded between now and next years traded deadline.
> 
> Wouldn't be surprised to see him move on draft day for a top 3 pick.


No way he goes to any of the teams that are in the Top 3. The guy wants to go to a big city team


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## RollWithEm

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



FSH said:


> No way he goes to any of the teams that are in the Top 3. The guy wants to go to a big city team


We don't find out the top 3 until Tuesday.


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## Bogg

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



FSH said:


> No way he goes to any of the teams that are in the Top 3. The guy wants to go to a big city team


Well, he wants to go somewhere he can win games more than he wants a lifestyle move. I'd say the Celtics, Lakers, and Magic would all be in play if they got a top-3 pick in the lottery, and I could see Phoenix possibly making a move as well. I'd still be a little bit surprised if they don't try to replicate what Portland did with this past season, though. Not that I necessarily think it's the right move, but it's just so hard to get a player of his caliber that teams are reluctant to move them at any point.


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## R-Star

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



Bogg said:


> Well, he wants to go somewhere he can win games more than he wants a lifestyle move. I'd say the Celtics, Lakers, and Magic would all be in play if they got a top-3 pick in the lottery, and I could see Phoenix possibly making a move as well. I'd still be a little bit surprised if they don't try to replicate what Portland did with this past season, though. Not that I necessarily think it's the right move, but it's just so hard to get a player of his caliber that teams are reluctant to move them at any point.


With all those draft picks I wouldn't be surprised to see Phoenix in the mix.


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## Bogg

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



R-Star said:


> With all those draft picks I wouldn't be surprised to see Phoenix in the mix.


Agreed, but I think they're more of a long-shot than they initially appear. Unless Phoenix scores a lottery night miracle on the 1.8% chance of jumping up to a top-3 pick, they aren't going to have a high pick to offer Minnesota a young cornerstone to sell their fans on. If Love winds up in the desert I think it'd have to be because he refused to go to an East Coast team (which would be dumb on his part), the Lakers stayed put or dropped on lottery night, and Phoenix beat out the Lakers one quality asset with sheer volume of lesser assets.


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## Dissonance

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

How often are stars or superstars dealt for cornerstone prospects or high picks? Very rarely. It's usually a multitude a picks and young players - which Suns have the advantage on. 

He can choose not to go to those places because they are in a mess like or worse than Minnesota. With no hope in sight.


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## R-Star

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



Dissonance said:


> How often are stars or superstars dealt for cornerstone prospects or high picks? Very rarely. It's usually a multitude a picks and young players - which Suns have the advantage on.
> 
> He can choose not to go to those places because they are in a mess like or worse than Minnesota. With no hope in sight.


Elton Brand off the top of my head. 

That can't be the last one can it?


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## Bogg

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



Dissonance said:


> How often are stars or superstars dealt for cornerstone prospects or high picks? Very rarely. It's usually a multitude a picks and young players - which Suns have the advantage on.
> 
> He can choose not to go to those places because they are in a mess like or worse than Minnesota. With no hope in sight.


Stars are rarely dealt for very high picks because the types of teams that have very high picks usually aren't the types of teams that can keep those guys around. However, because of the kind of shape the East is in (and how good the West is), a Boston team trotting out Rondo/Love/Green/Asik or Sanders or an Orlando team trotting out Afflalo/Harris/Love/Vucevic as their core has at least as good of a shot at a deep playoff run as that theoretical Suns team. Phoenix is a possibility, but they'd need some help from Love (like I said, refusing a move East) to be the team offering the best package. 

Also, on sheer volume of trade chips Boston is at least Phoenix's equal.



R-Star said:


> Elton Brand off the top of my head.
> 
> That can't be the last one can it?


Ray Allen was dealt was the fifth pick and spare parts. I suppose that counts.


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## E.H. Munro

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



King Sancho Fantastic said:


> I really hope the Lakers remain patient and keep the lottery pick. We can't continue it mortgage the future by dealing every pick of value. Only way I'd deal the pick for Love would be if Love agreed to an extension. That's highly unlikely seeing as it wouldn't be financially prudent on his part.


The Lakers aren’t planning to compete for the eighth spot in the west in 2016. They want to make the playoffs next year. While I’m fairly confident the top four guys in this pool will get there eventually, and that the next 4-5 guys will pan out to varying degrees, no one in this pool helps them in the immediate future. They have acres of cap space and a mid lottery pick to trade and are going to use them to acquire legit players now.


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## Diable

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

Says on ESPN that Love is interested in Chicago and GSW. I can see how you make a Chicago deal and still end up with a team that Love would want to sign an extension with. 

How you work out a deal to the Warriors that nets the Wolves anything and leaves you with a team that competes in the Western Conference I can't imagine.


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## R-Star

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



Diable said:


> Says on ESPN that Love is interested in Chicago and GSW. I can see how you make a Chicago deal and still end up with a team that Love would want to sign an extension with.
> 
> How you work out a deal to the Warriors that nets the Wolves anything and leaves you with a team that competes in the Western Conference I can't imagine.


http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=p7mu3pk

Add a couple firsts from G-State?


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## BlakeJesus

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

Kevin Love on the Suns would be fantastic.


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## BlakeJesus

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



Diable said:


> Says on ESPN that Love is interested in Chicago and GSW. I can see how you make a Chicago deal and still end up with a team that Love would want to sign an extension with.
> 
> How you work out a deal to the Warriors that nets the Wolves anything and leaves you with a team that competes in the Western Conference I can't imagine.


Harrison Barnes and a first or two, you would think, would be an interesting package if they don't see themselves retaining Love. Barnes could maybe explode in a new role, and you'd think he'd fit well with Rubio. 

Problem would be making the money work, do they have to give up David Lee?


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## Dissonance

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

*Sources: Timberwolves open to idea of trading Kevin Love *


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## l0st1

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

Was just a matter of time. Should be interesting to see what the Wolves actually do about this. Do they make desperation moves to keep him happy and risky being left with a mess of a team, trade him for the best package or make him leave the money on the table next summer.

I think the Suns can put together an enticing package of young players, picks and cap space. Though if someone puts up a budding star then I'm not sure we can match without adding one of Dragic/Bledsoe. Our picks just aren't high enough to match a top 5 pick or young soon-to-be-star player.

Magic would be interesting but not sure what that does to Vucevic and Harris. I'm guessing one of them would be headed back to Minny. Boston is a possibility. Lakers are probably the favorites depending on the lotto and what they can add to it. Resign Gasol and then pair him with the pick? Does that even interest the Wolves?


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## Diable

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

You need some way that there's something in it for the Wolves and there's still a team left that looks good around Love. That is a lot tougher if it is any place in the West. Hard to see how PHX makes the money work. You can value a pick at 3 million I think. You probably need a to pay off a team like Charlotte with Cap space to facilitate any deal.


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## Dissonance

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*

If Love wants to come here and/or it's viable regardless, McD will find a way.


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## l0st1

*Re: Should Wolves trade Kevin Love now?*



Diable said:


> You need some way that there's something in it for the Wolves and there's still a team left that looks good around Love. That is a lot tougher if it is any place in the West. Hard to see how PHX makes the money work. You can value a pick at 3 million I think. You probably need a to pay off a team like Charlotte with Cap space to facilitate any deal.


Suns have cap space this summer. Especially before resigning Bledsoe. Making salaries match wouldn't be difficult if it's this summer.

As for a package that is enticing plus still leaves a team around Love that makes it make sense. Assuming the goal is to keep Bledsoe and Dragic what about something like: 3 1sts in 2014, Len, and Morris brothers. I realize there is no star in this package but 3 1sts plus the 5th pick in 2013 that didn't get much playing time plus two young players that really showed improvement (keif being a top candidate for 6th man and MIP).

Suns would be left with a line-up of:

Bledsoe, Ish Smith
Dragic, Green, Goodwin
Tucker, Marcus Morris
Love, Markeif Morris
Plumlee, Frye

Obviously a lot would have to go right for the Suns for this to work out in their favor but still I think it's fair to say it's a reasonable destination for him.


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## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Warriors offer the double-doubler leader in Lee, and unlimited potential in Barnes.

Amare says Knicks are the best team now, I feel that Lakers are even better than Knicks this summer!

Love to either Knicks or Lakers would be the best team ever?


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## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=p7mu3pk
> 
> Add a couple firsts from G-State?





BlakeJesus said:


> Harrison Barnes and a first or two, you would think, would be an interesting package if they don't see themselves retaining Love. Barnes could maybe explode in a new role, and you'd think he'd fit well with Rubio.
> 
> Problem would be making the money work, do they have to give up David Lee?


Golden State can't trade a first-rounder again until 2019. Utah has their picks in 15 and 17 as part of the Jefferson/Biedrins/Rush salary-dump that allowed them to ink Iggy. The best they could reasonably do is include both Thompson and Barnes with Lee and try to get Kevin Martin back in the deal.


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## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Bogg said:


> Golden State can't trade a first-rounder again until 2019. Utah has their picks in 15 and 17 as part of the Jefferson/Biedrins/Rush salary-dump that allowed them to ink Iggy. The best they could reasonably do is include both Thompson and Barnes with Lee and try to get Kevin Martin back in the deal.


http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=laj6jkd ?


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## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Yeah I'm not seeing how a GSW deal happens in the real world. Barnes and Thompson might be enough for the Wolves, but that does not leave you with a team that is a lock to do shit in the West if you're Love. They aren't taking back the right to pay David Lee 40 million dollars unless you sweeten the deal a lot.


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## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=laj6jkd ?


I think Thompson's gotta be in there. Barnes hasn't shown enough to be the cornerstone of a trade for Love. Maybe you can sub out Barnes for Green, but I'd hold the line on Thompson if I was Minny.

EDIT: I'm assuming that there's a good chance one of Boston/LA, and maybe even Orlando, lands a top-3 pick and makes it available, and Phoenix puts a ton of volume on the table, so that's my working baseline. Maybe all those teams get shut out and Minnesota's leverage drops.



Diable said:


> Yeah I'm not seeing how a GSW deal happens in the real world. Barnes and Thompson might be enough for the Wolves, but that does not leave you with a team that is a lock to do shit in the West if you're Love. They aren't taking back the right to pay David Lee 40 million dollars unless you sweeten the deal a lot.


I dunno, Curry-Martin-Iggy-Love-Bogut (or whoever's at center) is a good team if they stay healthy. Granted, they almost certainly won't stay healthy, but Warriors brass could talk themselves into that squad.


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## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I've got a few possible deals that might make some sense:

1) Rockets send Pat Beverly, Terrence Jones, Donatas Motiejūnas, and Omer Asik (with a future pick, perhaps).

2) Pistons send S&T Greg Monroe and the #8 pick.

3) Raptors send Amir Johnson, Terrence Ross, Pat Patterson, #20 and #37 this year with an unprotected future first


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## kbdullah

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Rockets are going to make a push, but I think they have to include Parsons in a sign-and-trade. Timberwolves need to get some solid players out of it, and you can't really expect Harden/Parsons/Love to hold up defensively anyway. I'd add in Parsons and try to take back Love + Brewer.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> I've got a few possible deals that might make some sense:
> 
> 1) Rockets send Pat Beverly, Terrence Jones, Donatas Motiejūnas, and Omer Asik (with a future pick, perhaps).


As much as I would like this, there's no way that Minnesota takes back Pouty Asik in hopes of trading him somewhere else for something. Houston is going to have to do that part of the job themselves. With Pekovic in tow, and another backup C in the package (Motiejūnas) there's zero need for Asik. 

Also, Beverly is sort of necessary to Houston and not to a team with Ricky Rubio (Beverly gives the Rockets solid D at the 1 spot, which they would need to replace and I don't think the T'wolves consider a backup PG as being a lot of value). So, all told, I think Parsons, as one of the biggest bargains in the NBA, has to be included to make the deal worth Minnesota's while.


----------



## kbdullah

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

On that note, Rockets can either extend Parsons this offseason or risk him becoming a UFA next offseason. I'd imagine Minnesota would want him extended at a price they like.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



kbdullah said:


> On that note, Rockets can either extend Parsons this offseason or risk him becoming a UFA next offseason. I'd imagine Minnesota would want him extended at a price they like.


Yeah, but they can work that out later, and would likely prefer it that way.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Houston is going to have to get a 3rd team involved. They would need to include Parsons and send Asik for a pick that goes to Minny. Could they take on a bad k for Minny? Might be easier to just clear room for Melo.

Suns wouldn't be good enough. I'm skeptical of how good Boston would be as well. Same goes for the Lakers. The GS offer would be garbage.

Bulls make sense. Boozer, Mirotic, Butler and 2 1sts for Love and one of their bad wing contracts.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> I've got a few possible deals that might make some sense:
> 
> 1) Rockets send Pat Beverly, Terrence Jones, Donatas Motiejūnas, and Omer Asik (with a future pick, perhaps).
> 
> 2) Pistons send S&T Greg Monroe and the #8 pick.
> 
> 3) Raptors send Amir Johnson, Terrence Ross, Pat Patterson, #20 and #37 this year with an unprotected future first


Would Love play in Detroit, or better yet, Toronto though?


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

If the Rockets somehow did this, I hope Lin stays on the team and ends up starting.

Lin
Harden
Some Chump
Love
Howard

The worst defensive starting 5 in league history?


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



E.H. Munro said:


> Beverly is sort of necessary to Houston and not to a team with Ricky Rubio (Beverly gives the Rockets solid D at the 1 spot, which they would need to replace and I don't think the T'wolves consider a backup PG as being a lot of value). So, all told, I think Parsons, as one of the biggest bargains in the NBA, has to be included to make the deal worth Minnesota's while.


Certainly a possibility. Getting Love might be enough for Morey to part with Parsons.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Would love play in Detroit, or better yet, Toronto though?


According to the AP piece this morning Minnesota is ready to move him, he wants to play for a winner, and the T'wolves want NBA ready players. So, thinking about it, the Pistons could put together a pretty good package for Love. Monroe (sign & trade), Smith, and #8 for Love, Martin, filler would work out for both teams. 

The T'wolves should be able to move Pekovic for a decent haul after the fact, which leaves them with Monroe/Smith staring and Dieng as the third big, which would be the foundation of a very solid defensive squad. Assuming they were able to get some wing scoring for Pekovic they would be able to field a pretty competitive squad.

From Detroit's point of view, Love and Drummond are a perfect match on the offensive end, while working with the Warthog should help Drummond hit his defensive anchor potential and help ameliorate Love's D. The Pistons would also have a couple of scorers in tow which should really help Jennings out. Depending on what happens to Miami this summer, that would be a potential top four team in the east, with a shot of reaching the conference finals if Bosh walks and James changes his mind about carrying Wade to the Finals every year.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Would Washington make Bradley Beal available in a deal for Love? Would Porter/Beal/Gortat for Love get the job done?


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



E.H. Munro said:


> According to the AP piece this morning Minnesota is ready to move him, he wants to play for a winner, and the T'wolves want NBA ready players. So, thinking about it, the Pistons could put together a pretty good package for Love. Monroe (sign & trade), Smith, and #8 for Love, Martin, filler would work out for both teams.
> 
> The T'wolves should be able to move Pekovic for a decent haul after the fact, which leaves them with Monroe/Smith staring and Dieng as the third big, which would be the foundation of a very solid defensive squad. Assuming they were able to get some wing scoring for Pekovic they would be able to field a pretty competitive squad.
> 
> From Detroit's point of view, Love and Drummond are a perfect match on the offensive end, while working with the Warthog should help Drummond hit his defensive anchor potential and help ameliorate Love's D. The Pistons would also have a couple of scorers in tow which should really help Jennings out. Depending on what happens to Miami this summer, that would be a potential top four team in the east, with a shot of reaching the conference finals if Bosh walks and James changes his mind about carrying Wade to the Finals every year.


You've talked me into loving this deal, which means it probably won't happen.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



E.H. Munro said:


> According to the AP piece this morning Minnesota is ready to move him, he wants to play for a winner, and the T'wolves want NBA ready players. So, thinking about it, the Pistons could put together a pretty good package for Love. Monroe (sign & trade), Smith, and #8 for Love, Martin, filler would work out for both teams.
> 
> The T'wolves should be able to move Pekovic for a decent haul after the fact, which leaves them with Monroe/Smith staring and Dieng as the third big, which would be the foundation of a very solid defensive squad. Assuming they were able to get some wing scoring for Pekovic they would be able to field a pretty competitive squad.
> 
> From Detroit's point of view, Love and Drummond are a perfect match on the offensive end, while working with the Warthog should help Drummond hit his defensive anchor potential and help ameliorate Love's D. The Pistons would also have a couple of scorers in tow which should really help Jennings out. Depending on what happens to Miami this summer, that would be a potential top four team in the east, with a shot of reaching the conference finals if Bosh walks and James changes his mind about carrying Wade to the Finals every year.


This is along the lines of what I was thinking in Detroit. SVG might be looking to make a splash and become really competitive really quickly. This could make that happen. Good idea on the Josh for Martin addition to the deal. That makes it even more feasible.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> Would Washington make Bradley Beal available in a deal for Love? Would Porter/Beal/Gortat for Love get the job done?


I'd hate to see that happen. I love Wall and Beal going forward. 

That trade basically makes it Wall, Love and nobody on a gutted Washinton team.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



E.H. Munro said:


> The T'wolves should be able to move Pekovic for a decent haul after the fact, which leaves them with Monroe/Smith staring and Dieng as the third big, which would be the foundation of a very solid defensive squad. Assuming they were able to get some wing scoring for Pekovic they would be able to field a pretty competitive squad.


And the Wolves would be getting the #8 pick in this deal to go with the #13 , 40, 44, and 53 picks that they already have. Lots of rookie lottery tickets there.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> That trade basically makes it Wall, Love and nobody on a gutted Washinton team.


Wall/FA SG/Ariza/Love/Nene

I'd have to think that team would be better than what they have now.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> Wall/FA SG/Ariza/Love/Nene
> 
> I'd have to think that team would be better than what they have now.


Depends. There's already talk of losing Ariza. Plus Nene as per usual is a pretty big question mark. Its easier to gamble on Nene being healthy at the 4 because there's other guys on the bench who can fill in. Trade Gortat and move Nene to the 5 and its getting pretty thin. 

The Ariza argument could be used if you don't make the trade and keep Beal as well though.

I guess at the end of the day I just hate seeing young guard duo's like that being split up. I like them over Steph and Klay.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> I like them over Steph and Klay.


Wall needs to continue to evolve offensively before I'm willing to concede that point.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> If the Rockets somehow did this, I hope Lin stays on the team and ends up starting.
> 
> Lin
> Harden
> Some Chump
> Love
> Howard
> 
> The worst defensive starting 5 in league history?


Luckily Houston would likely hold on to Beverly and likely look to get Brewer back as the filler. If you really wanted a comical defense you would want the Rockets to keep Parsons as he is abysmal as a defender. Not James Harden bad, but pretty terrible nonetheless.



RollWithEm said:


> Certainly a possibility. Getting Love might be enough for Morey to part with Parsons.


I would hope so, Parsons is the best "other guy on the floor" player in the league, but Love is better than that. And they both suck defensively so that's a wash.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> Would Washington make Bradley Beal available in a deal for Love? Would Porter/Beal/Gortat for Love get the job done?


With Pekovic in tow I think Nene Hilario makes more sense for both squads. For Washington losing Porter is the icing on the cake (by which I mean they can justify the terrible selection with the "But he was the key to our Love!" line).


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



E.H. Munro said:


> With Pekovic in tow I think Nene Hilario makes more sense for both squads. For Washington losing Porter is the icing on the cake (by which I mean they can justify the terrible selection with the "But he was the key to our Love!" line).


Perhaps KMart would go back to Washington if Nene was included?


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



E.H. Munro said:


> For Washington losing Porter is the icing on the cake (by which I mean they can justify the terrible selection with the "But he was the key to our Love!" line).


Ah, the old "Gerald Green Special".


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> Perhaps KMart would go back to Washington if Nene was included?


Well, it makes sense, Martin isn't really necessary to the Wolves once they have Beal and the Wiz would need a 2 guard.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Do not really think I'd trade Beal for Love. Beal is young and he's on a rookie deal. When his deal comes up it's going to be fairly reasonable under the new CBA.

If I were the Wizards I'd try to sign Melo to a somewhat reasonable deal and figure that would do a lot more for me. That is what makes sense for them. That makes them a contender in the East, trading Beal for Love does not.


----------



## ATLien

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Are we assuming these teams get some sort of guarantee Love will extend with them? Can't see anyone giving up that much for a rental.


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Not R-Star said:


> Are we assuming these teams get some sort of guarantee Love will extend with them? Can't see anyone giving up that much for a rental.


Yes. The assumption is that Love's agent is in the driver's seat here and would give teams a pretty good idea where they stand in terms of being able to keep him.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

The Bulls should deal Gibson to the Kings along with their #16 for Landry or Thompson and the #7 . Then send the #7 to the Wolves.

Something like this:

Chicago Trades: Boozer, Gibson, Mirotic, Snell, #16 , #19 
Chicago Obtains: Love, Landry, Budinger

Sacramento Trades: Landry, #7 
Sacramento obtains: Gibson, #16 , #40 

Minnesota Trades: Love, Budinger, #40 
Minnesota Obtains: Boozer, Mirotic, Snell, #7 , #19


----------



## PD

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> The Bulls should deal Gibson to the Kings along with their #16 for Landry or Thompson and the #7 . Then send the #7 to the Wolves.
> 
> Something like this:
> 
> Chicago Trades: Boozer, Gibson, Mirotic, Snell, #16 , #19
> Chicago Obtains: Love, Landry, Budinger
> 
> Sacramento Trades: Landry, #7
> Sacramento obtains: Gibson, #16 , #40
> 
> Minnesota Trades: Love, Budinger, #40
> Minnesota Obtains: Boozer, Mirotic, Snell, #7 , #19


I think Chicago and Sacramento would glad to do this deal. Would the Wolves?


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



PD said:


> I think Chicago and Sacramento would glad to do this deal. Would the Wolves?


No chance.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Just want to see Love in the playoffs...


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> No chance.


Why not? Throw in Butler instead of Snell if they really want to pay when his contract is up next year.

They would have the 7, 13, and 19 picks plus Mirotic and Butler/Snell. Boozers contract is only for a year and they still save money by throwing in a mediocre bench guy in Bud. They can send Turiaf out for a tpe to save even more and give Chi a backup center.

Seems like a good deal to me.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> Why not? Throw in Butler instead of Snell if they really want to pay when his contract is up next year.
> 
> They would have the 7, 13, and 19 picks plus Mirotic and Butler/Snell. Boozers contract is only for a year and they still save money by throwing in a mediocre bench guy in Bud. They can send Turiaf out for a tpe to save even more and give Chi a backup center.
> 
> Seems like a good deal to me.


It seems like a good deal to you because you are overrating Mirotić (who is at best untested at the NBA level and at worst completely useless), Butler (who is a very nice role player at best), and Snell (who might not turn out to be a useful NBA player). 

Love and Budinger (a guy who the Minnesota brass still see value in) for that package? *NO CHANCE*


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=k7xmrrd

*Cleveland Sends:* 
Tristian Thompson
Dion Waiters
Alonzo Gee
2014 1st rounder

*Minnesota Sends:*
Kevin Love


Gives Minnesota 2 young high potential players, a high first round pick, and a decent role player in Gee.

Cleveland finally gets the star to pair with Irving, and ships out Waiters as well to fix reported chemistry issues.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

It also puts Uncle Drew & Wes on the same team. They just need to pick up Nate Robinson to get the gang together.


----------



## Pyrex

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

He's gonna play with Curry


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=k7xmrrd
> 
> *Cleveland Sends:*
> Tristian Thompson
> Dion Waiters
> Alonzo Gee
> 2014 1st rounder
> 
> *Minnesota Sends:*
> Kevin Love
> 
> 
> Gives Minnesota 2 young high potential players, a high first round pick, and a decent role player in Gee.
> 
> Cleveland finally gets the star to pair with Irving, and ships out Waiters as well to fix reported chemistry issues.


This makes some sense if Cleveland's pick moves up into the top 3. If they stay at 9 or fall a spot or two, though, eh. Not so much.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

If you get a top three pick you're probably not trading it for Love. Even if the guy you draft isn't nearly as good as Love you are going to pay him a quarter of what Love will make over the next four or five years.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Diable said:


> If you get a top three pick you're probably not trading it for Love. Even if the guy you draft isn't nearly as good as Love you are going to pay him a quarter of what Love will make over the next four or five years.


Which makes Cleveland an unlikely landing spot for Love.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> Which makes Cleveland an unlikely landing spot for Love.


Who's offering more than Waiters, Thompson and a 4-10 range pick?


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Chicago probably has to give up Tahj Gibson if they really want to make a deal, Gibson and two first rounders, plus something sweet enough to get a third team to eat Boozer's contract or some other device to make the money right. That seems to be the most viable idea


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Is Taj Gibson, the Bobcats pick, and a Chicago first which has not shot at lotto a better offering than Thompson, Waiters and a high first?

I don't see it.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Who's offering more than Waiters, Thompson and a 4-10 range pick?


My personal opinion is that neither Waiters nor Thompson is even a decent prospect. Also, that pick is #9 (not 4-10 range).


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> My personal opinion is that neither Waiters nor Thompson is even a decent prospect. Also, that pick is [URL=http://www.basketballforum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=9]#9 [/URL] (not 4-10 range).


Its not #9 until after the lottery. 

And Thompson is basically averaging a double double in his second season, and Waiters is a 16ppg player in his.

We're writing off a 22 and 23 year old already putting up nice stats? Come on man. That's just stupid.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Its not #9 until after the lottery.


So then the range is actually 1-3 or 9-12 (not 4-10).



> And Thompson is basically averaging a double double in his second season, and Waiters is a 16ppg player in his.
> 
> We're writing off a 22 and 23 year old already putting up nice stats? Come on man. That's just stupid.


Then I am stupid.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> It seems like a good deal to you because you are overrating Mirotić (who is at best untested at the NBA level and at worst completely useless), Butler (who is a very nice role player at best), and Snell (who might not turn out to be a useful NBA player).
> 
> Love and Budinger (a guy who the Minnesota brass still see value in) for that package? *NO CHANCE*


Let's look at your package.

Beverly (role player), Motiejunas (garbage so far, might not turn out to be a useful NBA player), Jones (very nice role player at best) and Asik (who they have absolutely no need of and would have to trade). And _maybe_ a future pick? Well the future pick wouldn't be NBA tested, so I guess it's not going to be worth much, right?

Would you trade the #7 pick for any of those guys? Not a chance. My deal also saves the Wolves money and gives them an additional pick. 

But at least in your scenario they get to keep Budinger!


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Who's offering more than Waiters, Thompson and a 4-10 range pick?


Nobody. But the Cavs suck and their front office is bad. He's not going there.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Diable said:


> Chicago probably has to give up Tahj Gibson if they really want to make a deal, Gibson and two first rounders, plus something sweet enough to get a third team to eat Boozer's contract or some other device to make the money right. That seems to be the most viable idea


Minny isn't going to be competing for titles any time soon. Much better to have the Bulls trade Gibson for a lotto pick and send that along with Boozer. 

Boozer's deal is only one year, and by taking back a bad contracts the Bulls can save Minny money.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Wolves don't want Boozer (little value) and Gibson. In other words, Bulls have nothing the Wolves want.

What package did Knicks and Lakers offer?


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> Let's look at your package.
> 
> Beverly (role player), Motiejunas (garbage so far, might not turn out to be a useful NBA player), Jones (very nice role player at best) and Asik (who they have absolutely no need of and would have to trade). And _maybe_ a future pick? Well the future pick wouldn't be NBA tested, so I guess it's not going to be worth much, right?
> 
> Would you trade the #7 pick for any of those guys? Not a chance. My deal also saves the Wolves money and gives them an additional pick.
> 
> But at least in your scenario they get to keep Budinger!


Wait, why would they be trading Asik? Pek is an offensive, back-to-the-basket player who doesn't protect the rim or defend pick-and-roll well. Asik is his perfect antithesis. Are you assuming they couldn't play well together? Asik is one of the key reasons Minnesota might consider that deal. Asik is better than anyone in that Bulls package.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Its not #9 until after the lottery.


And now it is one... so they don't need Love.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> And now it is one... so they don't need Love.


Wouldn't go that far...


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> And now it is one... so they don't need Love.


Well, as James is likely going to be a free agent, adding Love to Irving and retaining guys like Waiters to trade for the key pieces to fill out the roster would make them destination #1 when he bolts this summer. Adding a C with a back issue, on the other hand, means that they're still rebuilding with Kyrie Irving likely to bolt at the first available opportunity. They should choose immediate title contention.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> Wait, why would they be trading Asik? Pek is an offensive, back-to-the-basket player who doesn't protect the rim or defend pick-and-roll well. Asik is his perfect antithesis. Are you assuming they couldn't play well together? Asik is one of the key reasons Minnesota might consider that deal. Asik is better than anyone in that Bulls package.


Yes I am saying that Asik and Pekovic can't play together. It didn't work with Howard/Asik and they are both good defenders. 

And the Wolves already have a much cheaper version of Asik in Dieng, who has some semblance of an offensive game as well. 

Pretty sure the Wolves would rather have the #8 pick over Asik.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



E.H. Munro said:


> Well, as James is likely going to be a free agent, adding Love to Irving and retaining guys like Waiters to trade for the key pieces to fill out the roster would make them destination #1 when he bolts this summer. Adding a C with a back issue, on the other hand, means that they're still rebuilding with Kyrie Irving likely to bolt at the first available opportunity. They should choose immediate title contention.


I have to see it to believe it.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



E.H. Munro said:


> Well, as James is likely going to be a free agent, adding Love to Irving and retaining guys like Waiters to trade for the key pieces to fill out the roster would make them destination #1 when he bolts this summer. Adding a C with a back issue, on the other hand, means that they're still rebuilding with Kyrie Irving likely to bolt at the first available opportunity. They should choose immediate title contention.


Agreed. The idea that they're salivating to draft Embiid baffles me.

I just don't see them excited to draft a center with big back issues who didn't even show up for the combine. 

I think they draft Wiggins, or trade the pick for Kevin Love.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Cleveland trades #1 , Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, #33 

Cleveland gets Kevin Love, Omer Asik, #1 3

Minny Trades Kevin Love, #1 3

Minny gets #1 , #25 , Dion Waiters

Houston trades Omer Asik, #25 

Houston gets Tristan Thompson, #33


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



MemphisX said:


> Cleveland trades #1 , Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, #33
> 
> Cleveland gets Kevin Love, Omer Asik, #13
> 
> Minny Trades Kevin Love, #13
> 
> Minny gets #1 , #25 , Dion Waiters
> 
> Houston trades Omer Asik, #25
> 
> Houston gets Tristan Thompson, #33


Great idea. I like this one a lot.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> Great idea. I like this one a lot.


You quickly changed your opinion on Waiters and Thompson there...


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> You quickly changed your opinion on Waiters and Thompson there...


I think the #1 pick is the biggest prize in that package. Not Waiters or Thompson.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Jamel Irief said:


> I think the #1 pick is the biggest prize in that package. Not Waiters or Thompson.


Agreed. But its Tristan Thompson going to the Rockets for Asik. 

If Thompson was trash like RWE was saying, no one would be giving up a decent trade chip like Asik. Asik is going to have a ton of value with how weak a crop of FA centers there are this offseason.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

in now way is love worth the 1st pick in this draft ,or 2nd or 3rd for that matter

we are talking about a franchise guy whom you'll have for 6 mil. a season for 4-5 years.

and love is not a franchise guy .

and love has all the leverage here ,he's not going to cleveland because he doesn't want to ...no one does, not for gilbert who may be the 2nd or 3rd worst owner in the nba (and with sterling holding that top spot that is saying something)


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Agreed. But its Tristan Thompson going to the Rockets for Asik.
> 
> If Thompson was trash like RWE was saying, no one would be giving up a decent trade chip like Asik. Asik is going to have a ton of value with how weak a crop of FA centers there are this offseason.


i dont know about , he gets 15 mil. this year he is good but not 15 mil. good


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Da Grinch said:


> i dont know about , he gets 15 mil. this year he is good but not 15 mil. good


Agreed. But its the final year of said deal. In todays league, a lot of people are interested in expiring contracts because they free up a ton of cap space. In the case of Asik, you actually get a starting caliber player who can contribute as well. 

I think there will be a lot of interest in him this offseason once the FA's start to dry up.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



MemphisX said:


> Cleveland trades #1 , Tristan Thompson, Dion Waiters, #33
> 
> Cleveland gets Kevin Love, Omer Asik, #1 3
> 
> Minny Trades Kevin Love, #1 3
> 
> Minny gets #1 , #25 , Dion Waiters
> 
> Houston trades Omer Asik, #25
> 
> Houston gets Tristan Thompson, #33


That deal doesn't leave much room for signing Lebron in Cleveland. Good luck moving Jacks' contract for nothing. And no Bron means no Love (although I don't think either would actually go to Cleveland).

And why would Houston help someone else get Love? If they are convinced they can't get him, then they will target Melo, which means they need to clear salary not take it back. In this unlikely scenario they would rather have the 13 pick so they can use it to foist Lin on someone and have Tristan go to the Wolves.

Points for creativity though.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Da Grinch said:


> and love has all the leverage here ,he's not going to cleveland because he doesn't want to ...no one does, not for gilbert who may be the 2nd or 3rd worst owner in the nba (and with sterling holding that top spot that is saying something)


Agreed.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Da Grinch said:


> in now way is love worth the 1st pick in this draft ,or 2nd or 3rd for that matter
> 
> we are talking about a franchise guy whom you'll have for 6 mil. a season for 4-5 years.
> 
> and love is not a franchise guy .


It's also better than even odds that none of the top four are ever better than all stars. Wiggins might one day be as good as Paul George, he won't be next year or the year after. Parker could one day be as good as prime Paul Pierce, but most of you here always insisted that Pierce wasn't a franchise guy either. Exum could be the next great combo guard, or he could be the next Jamal Crawford. Embiid could be a dominant center, or his back issues might be serious. 

Gilbert might be the worst owner in terms of hiring management, but in this case the Cadavaliers would be teaming up Uncle Drew and Wes, and for any and all free agents on the market having those two as running mates means you get to be a title contender out of the gate.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Agreed. But its the final year of said deal. In todays league, a lot of people are interested in expiring contracts because they free up a ton of cap space. In the case of Asik, you actually get a starting caliber player who can contribute as well.
> 
> I think there will be a lot of interest in him this offseason once the FA's start to dry up.


if he's just a rental then fine even better he's a rental who is a good player then his value is at a certain level, but if the team is looking to resign him wants to keep him , until he signs a deal they have a cap hold on him that is kinda big . he doesn't come without issues

they always say there is a lack of centers , but really there isn't...there is a lack of complete centers. ones who are competent scorers who rebound and play good defense...those are the rare ones...one dimensional centers who are good enough to start are fairly common asik is among the best of those types.

a quick look at teams with substandard centers are usually horrible teams(he has in the past stated he only wants to go to a contender) or simply play a style asik isn't a good fit for.

he may just have a few suitors....especially considering while he isn't 15 mil. a year guy , he is better than an MLE player, he is at an age where he needs to make his money.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



E.H. Munro said:


> It's also better than even odds that none of the top four are ever better than all stars. Wiggins might one day be as good as Paul George, he won't be next year or the year after. Parker could one day be as good as prime Paul Pierce, but most of you here always insisted that Pierce wasn't a franchise guy either. Exum could be the next great combo guard, or he could be the next Jamal Crawford. Embiid could be a dominant center, or his back issues might be serious.
> 
> Gilbert might be the worst owner in terms of hiring management, but in this case the Cadavaliers would be teaming up Uncle Drew and Wes, and for any and all free agents on the market having those two as running mates means you get to be a title contender out of the gate.


this considered the best draft since 2003 and many consider this draft better than that one., its more likely that all the top 4 are all stars one day instead of none of them.

its not like last season , anthony bennett might not even be a top 10 pick this season if he were available.

the draft is taking a chance but the truth is after a year if the possible franchise guy isn't working out you can deal him for love or someone of similar ilk because people are willing to take chances on possible franchise guys ....


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Da Grinch said:


> this considered the best draft since 2003 and many consider this draft better than that one., its more likely that all the top 4 are all stars one day instead of none of them.


No. There is not a single one of these guys that will ever be LeBron. It's considered the best draft _since_ 2003 because there are multiple players that you would be happy drafting with the #1 pick in any given year, but the odds of any of these guys even being as good as the #5 pick in 2003 was (even if only for a couple of years) is slim to nil.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> You quickly changed your opinion on Waiters and Thompson there...


Not at all. The difference between #1 and #9 is worth every Waiters and Thompson in the world.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> Not at all. The difference between #1 and #9 is worth every Waiters and Thompson in the world.


Is Asik also a useless waste player like Waiters and Thompson?

Or are you willing to admit you perhaps went a little overboard?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



E.H. Munro said:


> Well, as James is likely going to be a free agent, adding Love to Irving and retaining guys like Waiters to trade for the key pieces to fill out the roster would make them destination #1 when he bolts this summer. Adding a C with a back issue, on the other hand, means that they're still rebuilding with Kyrie Irving likely to bolt at the first available opportunity. They should choose immediate title contention.


You do realize Irving isn't going to be able to leave for a pretty long time right?


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> You do realize Irving isn't going to be able to leave for a pretty long time right?


Actually he could leave quickly if he really wanted to. But at this point he's pissed at the organisation, telling him that he's going to have to wait another three to four years to play for a contender is as sure a way as exists to turn things sour permanently. I mean, if you add your third star via trade you're suddenly destination #1 for the guys on the market this summer and next. _None_ of these guys are LeBron. They're potential top 10-15 guys in the NBA, but an actual top 10-15 guy is better than a potential one.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



E.H. Munro said:


> Actually he could leave quickly if he really wanted to. _*But at this point he's pissed at the organisation*_, telling him that he's going to have to wait another three to four years to play for a contender is as sure a way as exists to turn things sour permanently. I mean, if you add your third star via trade you're suddenly destination #1 for the guys on the market this summer and next. _None_ of these guys are LeBron. They're potential top 10-15 guys in the NBA, but an actual top 10-15 guy is better than a potential one.


And you know this how? There hasn't been a single report out there that has confirmed this. And so far all I've seen is reports of rumors that Irving himself has shot down that were made about him. Not saying you're wrong, you could be right, but lets not make assumptions like this with no actual evidence.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Is Asik also a useless waste player like Waiters and Thompson?
> 
> Or are you willing to admit you perhaps went a little overboard?


I value Asik MUCH higher than either Waiters or Thompson. I think I've been pretty consistent on that in all my posts so far.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> I value Asik MUCH higher than either Waiters or Thompson. I think I've been pretty consistent on that in all my posts so far.


You value Asik much higher, but according to you Houston needs to downgrade draft picks while trading him for Thompson.

Again, not really adding up, is it RWE?


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> You value Asik much higher, but according to you Houston needs to downgrade draft picks while trading him for Thompson.
> 
> Again, not really adding up, is it RWE?


According to me? Did I propose that trade? Don't think so, fella. Check the history.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> According to me? Did I propose that trade? Don't think so, fella. Check the history.


No, you just said you thought it was a great trade.

I mean, what exactly are you doing here? You just said Asik is MUCH (you actually capitalized it) better than Thompson, yet a few posts prior you commented on how great a trade idea it was for Asik and the 25 to go to Cleveland for Thompson and the 33rd. 

Come on man. There's not really any realistic way to talk yourself around that.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> No, you just said you thought it was a great trade.
> 
> I mean, what exactly are you doing here? You just said Asik is MUCH (you actually capitalized it) better than Thompson, yet a few posts prior you commented on how great a trade idea it was for Asik and the 25 to go to Cleveland for Thompson and the 33rd.
> 
> Come on man. There's not really any realistic way to talk yourself around that.


Are you being serious right now? Just because I think Asik is MUCH more valuable (in general) than Thompson doesn't mean that I don't understand the issues of roster fit, championship window, and the general opinion of GMs throughout the league. Also, it was a Kevin Love trade. As long as the value was appropriate for the Wolves and for the team getting Love, the rest of the trade is unimportant.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> Are you being serious right now? Just because I think Asik is MUCH more valuable (in general) than Thompson doesn't mean that I don't understand the issues of roster fit, championship window, and the general opinion of GMs throughout the league. Also, it was a Kevin Love trade. As long as the value was appropriate for the Wolves and for the team getting Love, the rest of the trade is unimportant.


:laugh:

Keep talking in circles. Much easier than saying perhaps you overstated your opinion on two second year players who put up impressive stats on an admittedly shitty team.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Keep talking in circles. Much easier than saying perhaps you overstated your opinion on two second year players who put up impressive stats on an admittedly shitty team.


I can never tell whether or not you are trolling. You should start trying to make it more obvious.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



E.H. Munro said:


> No. There is not a single one of these guys that will ever be LeBron. It's considered the best draft _since_ 2003 because there are multiple players that you would be happy drafting with the #1 pick in any given year, but the odds of any of these guys even being as good as the #5 pick in 2003 was (even if only for a couple of years) is slim to nil.


why?

if people knew wade was going to be as good as he is/was he wouldn't have lasted to 5


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

These players Wolves don't want (never mention them)

David Lee, Amare, Chandler, Gibson, Boozer, Pau Gasol

Two first round picks (around 10th picks, 20th picks)

These players Wolves want:

Embiid, Wiggins, Aldridge, Blake Griffin


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/469312728981438464


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

It just occurred to me that Bismack Biyambo, Cody Zeller, Gerald Henderson, #9 , #24 , and #45 might be just enough to get KLove to Charlotte. I guess they might need to throw in a future first as well. I guess the question there would just be whether or not Love would agree to extend in Charlotte.


----------



## ATLien

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Paul Millsap, #15 and future firsts will work. Twin Towers South

:yep:


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> It just occurred to me that Bismack Biyambo, Cody Zeller, Gerald Henderson, #9 , #24 , and #45 might be just enough to get KLove to Charlotte. I guess they might need to throw in a future first as well. I guess the question there would just be whether or not Love would agree to extend in Charlotte.


I dunno, if he'd agree to opt-in for Charlotte I don't see why he wouldn't also do that for Cleveland, and Cleveland building a deal around the first overall pick trumps that offer. Same goes for Boston building a deal around #6 , #17 , and players.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Bogg said:


> I dunno, if he'd agree to opt-in for Charlotte I don't see why he wouldn't also do that for Cleveland, and Cleveland building a deal around the first overall pick trumps that offer. Same goes for Boston building a deal around #6 , [URL=http://www.basketballforum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1]#1 7[/URL] , and players.


But do the Cavs think Love is worth the #1 pick? In this draft? I doubt that they do. I don't think Cleveland would pull the trigger on that offer.

If Boston offered 6 and 17 with Jeff Green and Avery Bradley, Minnesota jumps on it in a second. Boston with Love and Rondo would still be several pieces away, though? Would Love resign?


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> If Boston offered 6 and 17 with Jeff Green and Avery Bradley, Minnesota jumps on it in a second. Boston with Love and Rondo would still be several pieces away, though? Would Love resign?


Well, _if_ Boston trades for Love I don't think Bradley would be involved because he's a restricted free agent and it would muck up the works trying to get him to agree to a sign-and-trade with Minnesota. You could do something like Jeff Green, Jared Sullinger, Keith Bogans' non-guaranteed money, #6 , and a future first though if Minnesota chose to accept it. Ainge could then use the Pierce trade exception and the 17th pick (plus maybe some minor stuff) to chase one of Asik or Larry Sanders to be Love's backstop and then bring Pierce himself back home in free agency to play out his last few years on a playoff team. Hell, we could even send Brandon Bass and Joel Anthony Brooklyn's way to bring back Garnett and get the band back together.

EDIT: For the record, I think I'd rather flip Rondo either to one of the Cali teams for pick 7/8 or do Rondo and the 6th for the 4th (ideally Rondo/6/17 for 4/12 and whatever contracts).


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> But do the Cavs think Love is worth the #1 pick? In this draft? I doubt that they do. I don't think Cleveland would pull the trigger on that offer.


Or they could swap one with Orlando for 4/12, get Love, and still have enough to fill in around Irving/Love/whomever.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I love "Love to Cavs" trade proposal and sign LeBron.

1st pick overall and Hawes to Wolves. Wolves will be exciting!

Bennett and Waiters to Blazers for Lillard.

Starters:

Lillard
Irving
LeBron
Anderson
Love

Benches: Deng, J Jack .....

Rebound is solid.


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Ballscientist said:


> I love "Love to Cavs" trade proposal and sign LeBron.
> 
> 1st pick overall and Hawes to Wolves. Wolves will be exciting!
> 
> Bennett and Waiters to Blazers for Lillard.
> 
> Starters:
> 
> Lillard
> Irving
> LeBron
> Anderson
> Love
> 
> Benches: Deng, J Jack .....
> 
> Rebound is solid.


Uhm that Lillard trade isn't happening and pretty sure the money doesn't work for that anyway.

Who is Anderson? And them retaining Deng would be fiscally impossible as well.

I think the better bet would be for Love to opt out of his contract sign for the vet minimum on the Heat, then they can trade Chris Anderson and James Jones for Joakim Noah. And then trade Norris Cole, Haslem and a future 2nd rounder for Kyle Lowry. 

Lowry, Wade, Lebron Love, Noah 

Bench: Allen, Chalmers, Bosh, Battier

Win is extreme.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

So...










+










=










???


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Already tired of this Love trade speculation. Everyone thinks their teams' have best offers and not really knowing what they really want.


----------



## Wade County

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Can't see Love going to Cleveland. 

Phoenix may be a dark horse in this race. They've got a ton of first rounders, Dragic, Markeiff Morris...something could get done.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



l0st1 said:


> Uhm that Lillard trade isn't happening and pretty sure the money doesn't work for that anyway.
> 
> Who is Anderson? And them retaining Deng would be fiscally impossible as well.
> 
> I think the better bet would be for Love to opt out of his contract sign for the vet minimum on the Heat, then they can trade Chris Anderson and James Jones for Joakim Noah. And then trade Norris Cole, Haslem and a future 2nd rounder for Kyle Lowry.
> 
> Lowry, Wade, Lebron Love, Noah
> 
> Bench: Allen, Chalmers, Bosh, Battier
> 
> Win is extreme.


My proposal is to benefit both teams. Most proposals are to benefit one team only. They want to see dead wolves!

Example: 
Boozer expiring contract for love. After Boozer is waived, Wolves are dead.

Amare contract for love/Rubio. After Amare is waived, Wolves are dead again!

Anderson is Anderson Varejao. Blazers will take the offer. Add filler to make it work.


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Ballscientist said:


> My proposal is to benefit both teams. Most proposals are to benefit one team only. They want to see dead wolves!
> 
> Example:
> Boozer expiring contract for love. After Boozer is waived, Wolves are dead.
> 
> Amare contract for love/Rubio. After Amare is waived, Wolves are dead again!
> 
> Anderson is Anderson Varejao. Blazers will take the offer. Add filler to make it work.




Nobody has offered Boozer or Amare straight up for Love or Love/Rubio.

And no the Blazers wouldn't even think about that offer. It's a joke of an offer for Lillard.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

We Warriors offer Klay Thompson and David Lee for Kevin Love.

Thompson is tree and Lee is leave.

Love preferred to play for Warriors and Bulls. He could accept Lakers and Knicks.

Bulls and Lakers don't have enough assets.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I doubt at this point that Cleveland is trading out, especially with a draft like this. If they didn't trade out last year, there's no way they're trading this year.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> I doubt at this point that Cleveland is trading out, especially with a draft like this. If they didn't trade out last year, there's no way they're trading this year.


It would be interesting if they can trade #1 in 2013 and #4 in 2012 for this year 2nd and 3rd overall picks.

Embiid, Wiggins and Parker on the same team.

then LeBron, Love, Irving and Deng


----------



## Zei_Zao_LS

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I'm hoping the Suns are active in trade discussions for Kevin Love. I think the pieces are there to make a deal, McD has already said he doesn't plan to pick with all of the picks in this draft, and there are a lot of movable pieces on the roster.

I have a feeling that asking for Dragic will be a dealbreaker though, which I don't totally disagree with. The team played amazing with him, regardless of who else was around, and he got some love from the talking heads come award time.


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I don't really know if the Suns have the right kind of package for Love, I mean...Gerald Green, a Morris twin, some picks on the teens? What are you getting excited about there? If there's no Goran, there's no deal.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Love may not be interested in Suns. If Suns make the better deal than Warriors, both Suns and Wolves can not make the playoffs.

Let's make a deal that will send both teams to the playoffs.

Warriors plan to offer Klay Thompson (24 yrs old) and David Lee (30 yrs old).

Centerpiece: Healthy Thompson fit into Wolves' 10 years plan. Lee fit into Wolves' 5 years plan.

Lee is one of the few player who can have career average around double-double, and average field goal 53%.


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



BlakeJesus said:


> I don't really know if the Suns have the right kind of package for Love, I mean...Gerald Green, a Morris twin, some picks on the teens? What are you getting excited about there? If there's no Goran, there's no deal.


Eric Bledsoe, Alex Len, Archie Goodwin, Morris twins, 3 1sts this year, our first and lakers first next year. And that's just youth.

If we wanted to mortgage our future we definitely have the pieces to get Love.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

lol questioning what the Suns have to offer.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Why would Love go to the Suns? They would go nowhere.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Borderline playoff team that immediately vaults into 50 plus win team. Nice try. Like Knicks, C's, Lakers are going anywhere? Shit contracts and crappy players. That Kobe contract while broken down. Suns are also historically good. 4th best winning %. Great area and near CA. 


Houston and Golden State are only ones immediately impacted to win it all but I doubt GSW puts in Klay (out of him, virtually not much assets) and question the fit in Houston and their assets.

Actually question on whether he's good enough to win a title with though.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

That depends upon what the Suns give up. If they could get Love without giving up anything on the current roster you probably have a team that wins around 53 games (pure guesstimation) in the West. They likely end up the fifth best team in the West I'd guess, depending upon what Houston does and if anyone else rises or falls. Of course you are one injury away from falling out of the playoffs just like all the other teams in that area. 

It would be a good team, but it would be far from a sure thing and if I am Love I would be looking for a place where I could parachute in and be pretty sure of having HCA in the first round of the playoffs. That pretty much has to be in the East IMO.


----------



## Bubbles

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Love needs to go to a team with an actual rim protector.


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



l0st1 said:


> Eric Bledsoe, Alex Len, Archie Goodwin, Morris twins, 3 1sts this year, our first and lakers first next year. And that's just youth.
> 
> If we wanted to mortgage our future we definitely have the pieces to get Love.


Bledsoe is the only truly interesting piece there, unless you're high on Alex Len (and I HIGHLY doubt anybody is high enough on him to move their franchise player for with him being the centerpiece coming back). Those picks are just fluff, mid teens to low twenties does not buy you a boarderline Top 10 player. 

The Suns would need to give up Bledsoe or Goran to make the package worthwhile.

Len, Goodwin, a Morris twin, and both 14/18 is a prayer if you ask me.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

The other question that must be asked about the Suns...was their season a fluke?


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Dissonance said:


> Borderline playoff team that immediately vaults into 50 plus win team. Nice try. Like Knicks, C's, Lakers are going anywhere? Shit contracts and crappy players. That Kobe contract while broken down. Suns are also historically good. 4th best winning %. Great area and near CA.
> 
> 
> Houston and Golden State are only ones immediately impacted to win it all but I doubt GSW puts in Klay (out of him, virtually not much assets) and question the fit in Houston and their assets.
> 
> Actually question on whether he's good enough to win a title with though.


Lakers and Knicks were always about waiting until '15 to sign him outright. Celtics have a good offer if Minny wants to tear it down, and the tools to add more talent. And unlike the Suns they have a great Bball tradition and play in the East. Don't give me this 4th best win percent stuff. The Bucks have more titles than you. Suck on that.

If Minnesota wants to go the rebuild route, the Suns also have a good offer. I am questioning whether the Suns would actually be competitive enough to make Love commit.

A Plumlee-Love-Green-Tucker-Dragic lineup is not going to impress. Sure you would have money to spend but who is going to come? Not Bron or Melo. Stephenson or Deng? Gortat? Is adding those type of players enough? They could try absorbing Lin/Asik, but are they willing to pay those contracts?

Also, I though I told you not to criticize the Lakers after destroying us with Nash. That is like punching someone on Dialysis in the kidneys.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> Lakers and Knicks were always about waiting until '15 to sign him outright. Celtics have a good offer if Minny wants to tear it down, and the tools to add more talent. And unlike the Suns they have a great Bball tradition and play in the East. Don't give me this 4th best win percent stuff. The Bucks have more titles than you. Suck on that. If Minnesota wants to go the rebuild route, the Suns have a good offer. I am questioning whether the Suns would actually be competitive enough to make Love commit.
> 
> A Plumlee-Love-Green-Tucker-Dragic lineup is not going to impress. Sure you would have money to spend but who is going to come? Not Bron or Melo. Stephenson or Deng? Gortat? Is adding those type of players enough?
> 
> And don't give me this 4th best win% stuff. Th Bucks have more titles than you. Suck on that.
> 
> Also, I though I told you not to criticize the Lakers after destroying us with Nash. That is like punching someone on Dialysis in the kidneys.


Still poor situations and East bball is not conducive to him. Deng would still be a possibility if Bledsoe is sent. They'd be still competitive, not far off as those. You don't know what Love can or can not attract with Goran once he's there. I doubt Bron and Melo. But it's also not a one yr project and this season alone. 

I'll take 4th% best winning percentage in PHX and market over a title from 19 ****ing 71 and Milwaukee with near no hope. No, sir, you suck on that.

:werdum: 

You're welcome. It'll be sweeter especially if Suns use LAL 2015 pick to cash in on something good.


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> I doubt at this point that Cleveland is trading out, especially with a draft like this. If they didn't trade out last year, there's no way they're trading this year.


The Cavs didn't trade the #1 pick last year because nobody wanted it.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

With that said, I am already resigned to fact that Suns probably won't get him. Sick of the ignorance.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Ballscientist said:


> It would be interesting if they can trade #1 in 2013 and #4 in 2012 for this year 2nd and 3rd overall picks.
> 
> Embiid, Wiggins and Parker on the same team.
> 
> then LeBron, Love, Irving and Deng


There's no possible way this can happen.



hobojoe said:


> The Cavs didn't trade the #1 pick last year because nobody wanted it.


They barely even tried.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Dissonance said:


> *Borderline playoff team that immediately vaults into 50 plus win team. *Nice try. Like Knicks, C's, Lakers are going anywhere? Shit contracts and crappy players. That Kobe contract while broken down. Suns are also historically good. 4th best winning %. Great area and near CA.
> 
> 
> Houston and Golden State are only ones immediately impacted to win it all but I doubt GSW puts in Klay (out of him, virtually not much assets) and question the fit in Houston and their assets.
> 
> Actually question on whether he's good enough to win a title with though.


That won't matter that much if there's no one else on the team that can actually help Love. He'll be in the situation Lebron was in when he was Cleveland...only that's Lebron we're talking about and this is Love we're talking about so we know he's going to fail.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

lol


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> That won't matter that much if there's no one else on the team that can actually help Love. He'll be in the situation Lebron was in when he was Cleveland...only that's Lebron we're talking about and this is Love we're talking about so we know he's going to fail.


If Dragic plays the way he did last year, then I'd rather have him than Love. I'd say it would be reasonable to argue that he had a bigger impact on winning games than Love did. Minnesota has a poor roster, but their roleplayers aren't that much worse than PHX's.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



l0st1 said:


> Eric Bledsoe, Alex Len, Archie Goodwin, Morris twins, 3 1sts this year, our first and lakers first next year. And that's just youth.
> 
> If we wanted to mortgage our future we definitely have the pieces to get Love.


In the modern world, usually it is 1 for 1 trade or 1 for 2 trade. Your proposal is 10 players for Love. Very Interesting!!

Each one = 1 (1 times 10)

Love = 10


----------



## Adam

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Diable said:


> If Dragic plays the way he did last year, then I'd rather have him than Love.


:jr:


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Ballscientist said:


> In the modern world, usually it is 1 for 1 trade or 1 for 2 trade. Your proposal is 10 players for Love. Very Interesting!!
> 
> Each one = 1 (1 times 10)
> 
> Love = 10



I know this is like talking to a crash test dummy but still, that was a run down of assets not an offer.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Diable said:


> If Dragic plays the way he did last year, then I'd rather have him than Love. I'd say it would be reasonable to argue that he had a bigger impact on winning games than Love did. Minnesota has a poor roster, but their roleplayers aren't that much worse than PHX's.


Not quite maynor over Westbrook or harden over Kobe but close.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

What exactly does Love do that can not be replaced if you have 17 million dollars to pay other big men? Rebounds aren't really that valuable. There are more of them in the game of basketball than anything else and they don't float off into space if Love doesn't get them. What Love does not do, does you a large amount of harm and there's not a lot of evidence that he helps you win all that much.

In the end you are talking about paying a max salary to a guy you want to be the second banana as you know you are not going to win if he's the best player. I can put guys around Dragic and win just as much.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Diable said:


> What exactly does Love do that can not be replaced if you have 17 million dollars to pay other big men? *Rebounds aren't really that valuable.* There are more of them in the game of basketball than anything else and they don't float off into space if Love doesn't get them. What Love does not do, does you a large amount of harm and there's not a lot of evidence that he helps you win all that much.
> 
> In the end you are talking about paying a max salary to a guy you want to be the second banana as you know you are not going to win if he's the best player. I can put guys around Dragic and win just as much.


I quit reading at this point. Every year its almost like you go out of your way to make it clear to everyone on the forum that you don't really understand the game of basketball.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Kevin Love is a guy who would thrive in the right situation. You put him next to a Hibbert, Jordan, Gasol, etc he would fit in perfectly. 

Right now if the Pacers had him making up for Hibberts lack of rebounding, not to mention his scoring punch, he'd be looking like an MVP. 

To say rebounding isn't important is just asinine.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Rebounding is the most easily replaced skill in basketball. That's all there is to it. Overpaying for them is a primary reason why a lot of teams suck.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Diable said:


> What exactly does Love do that can not be replaced if you have 17 million dollars to pay other big men? Rebounds aren't really that valuable. There are more of them in the game of basketball than anything else and they don't float off into space if Love doesn't get them. What Love does not do, does you a large amount of harm and there's not a lot of evidence that he helps you win all that much.
> 
> In the end you are talking about paying a max salary to a guy you want to be the second banana as you know you are not going to win if he's the best player. I can put guys around Dragic and win just as much.


Is love no longer an elite shooter, scorer and passer as well? In fact he does all those things better than Dragic.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

What does Dragic make? Dragic is probably going to be third team All NBA this year...Love will also. Love is not that much better than him. I'm better off with Dragic in PHX than I would be if I replaced him with Love, that's all there is to it.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I wonder what Minny would have to add to Love to get Dragic from Phoenix.

Man I hate your opinions Diable. You're just saying such dumb shit.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Love value formular = one young star + one all-star (note)

Note 1: young star needs to be 25 years old or younger, and will become all-star within two years

Note 2: already an all star within two years.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



hobojoe said:


> The Cavs didn't trade the #1 pick last year because nobody wanted it.


There were a few teams that wanted Oladipo or one of the other guys at the top. What they weren't willing to do was give the Cavs a superstar for a potential above average player. 

Had Chris Grant been more realistic he could have traded the pick for immediate help, but as we heard after his sacking he was constantly calling and haranguing other GMs to make NBA 2k13 trades and they kept hanging up the phone because he was such an asshole.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Not saying I agree with it but

Goran 20.3/5.9 on 50% shooting and 40 from 3 this yr. He had a phenomenal all NBA type yr. Made that team GO. But some people won't know just spout off opinions without watching PHX at all this yr.


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Dissonance said:


> Not saying I agree with it but
> 
> Goran 20.3/5.9 on 50% shooting and 40 from 3 this yr. He had a phenomenal all NBA type yr. Made that team GO. But some people won't know just spout off opinions without watching PHX at all this yr.



I've never seen a Phx game my entire life. It was rough especially during their five playoff series with the lakers during the last twenty years. I missed some good games. 



Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Your hyperbolic retort is sad.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Dissonance said:


> Not saying I agree with it but
> 
> Goran 20.3/5.9 on 50% shooting and 40 from 3 this yr. He had a phenomenal all NBA type yr. Made that team GO. But some people won't know just spout off opinions without watching PHX at all this yr.


1 year of 20 and 6 on good shooting is great. Being a consistent 20 point scorer and one of the leagues top rebounders while being 3 and a half years younger is more impressive though in my books.

No ones trying to talk down on Goran Dragic. He had an amazing year and is a big reason behind the Suns being the biggest Cinderella team in years. But to say hes worth more than Love trade wise? What a @Diable thing to say.

#WhataDiableThingToSay


----------



## Jamel Irief

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Dissonance said:


> Your hyperbolic retort is sad.


That's the point. Claiming people didn't watch a single Phx game this year because they don't agree with your opinion is sad and pathetic.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Let's compare Wizards with Warriors offers.

Wizards offer 

centerpiece: Bradley Beal

cornerpiece: nene

Warriors offer

centerpiece: Thompson

cornerpiece: David Lee


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I hope Washington doesn't trade Beal. I think he and Wall are the leagues most exciting backcourt.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Washington is in a place where they are one really good move away from being a contender (in the East), trading Beal while he's on a rookie deal is not that move.

Personally I would not have given Wittman an extension. They need a better coach, one with the gravitas to sit down with Carmelo and talk him into signing there.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Diable said:


> Washington is in a place where they are one really good move away from being a contender (in the East), trading Beal while he's on a rookie deal is not that move.
> 
> Personally I would not have given Wittman an extension. They need a better coach, one with the gravitas to sit down with Carmelo and talk him into signing there.


I still don't agree with that. Wittman took that team and far exceeded expectations. Why fire him now?


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Cavs offer this deal to defeat Wizards. This is the best deal so far.
centerpiece: No. 1 overall pick and Dion Waiters - Embiid nba comparison Tim Duncan and Harkeem Olajuwan, Waiters comparison is D Wade.
cornerpiece: Anderson Varejao and Tristan Thompson
read the quote:


> Joe Kotoch of Sheridan Hoops cited sources saying the Cleveland Cavaliers could deal the No. 1 overall pick, Anderson Varejao, Dion Waiters and Tristan Thompson in a deal for Love.


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ing-down-latest-gossip-surrounding-kevin-love


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Love seen in discussion with Rondo at the EMC club at Fenway. So it seems that the answer to the question is "Boston".


----------



## Wade County

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

If so, sound like history repeating.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I'm guessing that Boston must be willing to do the deal w/o an assurance that he'll sign an extension. It does not seem like he would do that in Boston at least. They have the assets to make a couple of moves that would put them in good shape, but for now there's no way Love should be telling them he's going to stick around if they don't do something else and something that gives you home court in the First Round.


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Diable said:


> I'm guessing that Boston must be willing to do the deal w/o an assurance that he'll sign an extension. It does not seem like he would do that in Boston at least. They have the assets to make a couple of moves that would put them in good shape, but for now there's no way Love should be telling them he's going to stick around if they don't do something else and something that gives you home court in the First Round.


If Ainge can close the deal on Love I'm not too concerned with his ability to put a playoff team in place that should be able to get to the second round in the East. Pierce is going to be a free agent and could take a discount to come play out his final seasons in Boston and there are some buy-low guys out there like OJ Mayo and Jeremy Lin that could give them offensive production and would come essentially for free. There are a few defensive specialist centers out there on the cheap like Asik, Sanders, and Perkins. They'd probably have enough left over to make a run at Hibbert if Indy put him on the block. In a best-case scenario, Carmelo forces the Knicks' hand and pushes a sign-and-trade to Boston that gives Phil Jackson a pile of draft picks to rebuild the franchise with. 

We'll see though. Step one is making sure Love doesn't wind up anywhere else.


----------



## kbdullah

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

What does Boston have to trade for Love?


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Diable said:


> What does Dragic make? Dragic is probably going to be third team All NBA this year...Love will also. Love is not that much better than him. I'm better off with Dragic in PHX than I would be if I replaced him with Love, that's all there is to it.


Suns won't trade dragon. Everyone knows love may not sign with any team that trades for him. This drops his value to a few draft picks and some rotational players. I see the Suns package the Morris brothers, their picks, and a young talent.


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



kbdullah said:


> What does Boston have to trade for Love?


Basically anyone on the roster other than Rondo, picks 6 and 17 in this draft, plus a boatload to future firsts. Not that they'd include all of those assets (particularly obviously not all the players), but so long as Cleveland doesn't jump into the fray with this year's first overall pick the Celtics can bid with anyone.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/474271409976262656


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



> @ESPNSteinLine: Flip Saunders just confirmed to ESPN he is indeed the new coach of the Minnesota Timberwolves


Welp


----------



## kbdullah

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

LOL, so he's the President and Coach? Taking a page from that SVG handbook. Meanwhile, Phil Jackson is on hands and knees begging Derek Fisher to be his protege.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



kbdullah said:


> LOL, so he's the President and Coach? Taking a page from that SVG handbook. Meanwhile, Phil Jackson is on hands and knees begging Derek Fisher to be his protege.


Phil Jackson knows what he's doing. I don't know why everyone is freaking out about him being GM. He can't possibly be worse than anyone that ever managed the Knicks before him after 1995.

If the wolves are smart, they'll trade love in draft day


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Warriors, Bulls and Suns have made offers to Wolves. So far Warriors offer is a lot of better than Celtics.

Love is willing to play for Knicks, Lakers and Celtics. Wolves are only interested in top 3 picks.

Celtics and Lakers will have to trade up in the draft day, then pack with a good young player.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

As of June 2, 16 teams have discussed with Saunders about Love's trade, but only 7 teams have made the offers.

Only Cavs are able to make better offer than Warriors.

*Kings centerpieces *
No. 8 pick in the draft and Ben McLemore, who was the No. 7 pick in the 2013 NBA Draft. 

*Kings connerpiece:*

Rudy Gay and Isaiah Thomas ( more players to involve)


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

A Love and Cousins front court would be wonderful to watch on both the offensive and defensive end. Both for completely different reasons.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

If I was a Minnesota fan I'd bunch you in the nuts for suggesting a Gay Love trade like that.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Diable said:


> If I was a Minnesota fan I'd bunch you in the nuts for suggesting a Gay Love trade like that.


Punch?

Because bunch.... it sounds like, I don't know, like you're going to like get in all close like with your own nuts and bunch them together with his. 

Its weird. I think I'd rather be punched in the nuts than bunched.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

*Bulls centerpieces:*

No. 16 pick, No 19 pick and a very good player in Euro (big man)

Cornerpieces:

Gibson and Boozer (more players to involve)

Which offer is better?


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Ballscientist said:


> *Bulls centerpieces:*
> 
> No. 16 pick, No 19 pick and a very good player in Euro (big man)
> 
> Cornerpieces:
> 
> Gibson and Boozer (more players to involve)
> 
> Which offer is better?


The Bulls offer is a terrible offer, and anyone outside of Bulls fans realize that.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Diable said:


> If I was a Minnesota fan I'd bunch you in the nuts for suggesting a Gay Love trade like that.


Besides, the Dream Team if you're an NBA fan is the Gay Love Boogie Kings.

EDIT: And that team would very likely finish in the lottery, so if you're the T'wolves you want an unprotected 2015 pick to go along with everything else.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

One thing I like:

centerpiece: one player only

One thing I don't like:

centerpiece: 5 players (value add together)


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

As coach, naturally Saunders would be more directly responsible for wins and losses.

Leading league sources: Flip Saunders prefers proven players over draft picks in a potential swap.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



> ESPN - Timberwolves president-coach Flip Saunders told KFAN 100.3 that Kevin Love has no right to be frustrated


Dude is gone. Lakers just need to be patient.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Just out of curiosity, exactly why would Love want to play for the Lakers? Doesn't he want to play for a team with more talent than the Timberwolves?


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Yeah, cuz they're poorly constructed teams are no right.

Drafting Flynn and Rubio and then Derrick Williams amassing draft and FA talent that don't fit.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/475398101302128640

People going nuts erroneously extracting from that, the Suns would give up BOTH Bledsoe and Goran. He just named the assets. They'd do one I bet.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I would love Bledsoe on the sort of deal Dragic has (although Dragic probably has the best deal in the entire league). I don't think I'd want to be the team that gave him a Max deal. That makes zero sense to me. Right now he looks an 8 million per player to me. I don't want to pay a guy the Max based on the hope that he'll be worth it some day.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Dissonance said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/475398101302128640
> 
> People going nuts erroneously extracting from that, the Suns would give up BOTH Bledsoe and Goran. He just named the assets. They'd do one I bet.


Agreed. Can't see it being both. Who's left in Phoenix for love to play with if you trade both?


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Exactly. No incentive for Love to extend in that scenario and you don't give up all that without it.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Love should go to a team that will have another established All Star and a 3rd option or defensive big left after the trade. Anything else and he might as well stick it out in Minny another season and see what they can put together.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Teams can still try to put some of that together with him locked up. It's a process to find the pieces. Won't win right away anywhere


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Bledsoe and Goran are enough to get Love. Flip does not like Suns' picks. One of Bledsoe and Goran is clearly not enough to defeat Warriors offer - Thompson and Lee.

I believe that Love is not interested in playing for Suns.


----------



## Pyrex

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Ballscientist said:


> Bledsoe and Goran are enough to get Love. Flip does not like Suns' picks. One of Bledsoe and Goran is clearly not enough to defeat Warriors offer - Thompson and Lee.
> 
> I believe that Love is not interested in playing for Suns.


Rubio Blesoe and Dragic on the same team?


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/1...berwolves-says-kevin-love-no-right-frustrated


About time someone has to be honest about these overpaid losers.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Yeah, he has no right to be upset that somehow the wolves still don't have any talent around him despite drafting in the lottery for six years. Then he compares this to KG situation which is the only time every fan of the league wanted a player to leave his team.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Hyperion said:


> Yeah, he has no right to be upset that somehow the wolves still don't have any talent around him despite drafting in the lottery for six years. Then he compares this to KG situation which is the only time every fan of the league wanted a player to leave his team.


Yea... I don't remember everyone wanting KG to leave his team.

I also remember the majority of this website calling Rubio a borderline top 5 PG in this league a couple of years ago. And the fact Kevin Martin is a quality scorer and Pek is supposedly pretty solid as well. 

Trade Love for KD or Bron and they take the Wolves to the playoffs. 

You can make up for a guard who plays 0 defense. Its much harder to make up for a 4 who plays shoddy D.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



> sources say Love is determined to play for a contender after missing the playoffs in each of his first six NBA seasons. His concern, sources say, isn't who's coaching but the state of the roster.


Great news: Flip plan to build a successful rosters. It would be great if Wolves can trade Love for 2 young players with all-star level.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

If I'm Minny I could care less what his demands are. I'm looking for the best young pieces I can get and I'm burning Loves jersey in front of him when he walks out the door. 

Kevin Love is a very good player. But if he cares all that much about winning maybe he'd try playing some defense.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Minnesota doesn't have enough talent to win in the West and none of the teams that could realistically trade for him in the West would end up in a great situation either relative to the upper echelons out there. 

There is probably not going to be a Phoenix deal where they give up Dragic, he's too valuable as long as he's under contract for half what players who produce like him earn. If they could get Love for draft picks and the right to give Eric Bledsoe a max deal they have to jump on that though. Still I am not sure that Suns team would be able to finish higher than fifth in the West, that doesn't seem all that likely either. They would definitely be better, but I don't know how much.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Diable said:


> Minnesota doesn't have enough talent to win in the West and none of the teams that could realistically trade for him in the West would end up in a great situation either relative to the upper echelons out there.
> 
> There is probably not going to be a Phoenix deal where they give up Dragic, he's too valuable as long as he's under contract for half what players who produce like him earn. If they could get Love for draft picks and the right to give Eric Bledsoe a max deal they have to jump on that though. Still I am not sure that Suns team would be able to finish higher than fifth in the West, that doesn't seem all that likely either. They would definitely be better, but I don't know how much.


I would enjoy the Bledsoe and picks deal. It keeps the Suns team pretty close to the same and adds Love.

The funny part for me would be to watch a team with such great chemistry and team play dealing with Love coming in and chucking 1/3rd of the teams shots away.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Yea... I don't remember everyone wanting KG to leave his team.
> 
> I also remember the majority of this website calling Rubio a borderline top 5 PG in this league a couple of years ago. And the fact Kevin Martin is a quality scorer and Pek is supposedly pretty solid as well.
> 
> Trade Love for KD or Bron and they take the Wolves to the playoffs.
> 
> You can make up for a guard who plays 0 defense. Its much harder to make up for a 4 who plays shoddy D.


Rubio was lighting it up for the first few weeks, he was posting 16/10 games regularly his first season, then he got injured and was never heard from again. Kevin Martin plays zero defense, Rubio plays zero defense brewer plays zero defense. Love is a great player and the wolves refused to give him a max contract. This is their fault. Where else in the league does a guy putting up 26/12 get called an overrated player or not an all star by the management of his own team? If he's going to be on a losing team, at least give him a max contract to do so. 

I would agree with you that Lebron can win 50 games a season with any roster of players right now. If you were to make a list of the top 5 players in the league and offer some combination of two of them for Lebron, I would still say Lebron is the better side of the trade.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Hyperion said:


> Rubio was lighting it up for the first few weeks, then he got injured and was never heard from again. Kevin Martin plays zero defense, Rubio plays zero defense brewer plays zero defense. Love is a great player and the wolves refused to give him a max contract. This is their fault. Where else in the league does a guy putting up 26/12 get called an overrated player or not an all star by the management of his own team? If he's going to be on a losing team, at least give him a max contract to do so.
> 
> I would agree with you that Lebron can win 50 games a season with any roster of players right now. If you were to make a list of the top 5 players in the league and offer some combination of two of them for Lebron, I would still say Lebron is the better side of the trade.


You say Rubio and Brewer play 0 defense? And that's used to defend Love?

Come on. 

Both Rubio and Brewer are worlds better defenders than Kevin Love. Kevin Love is the Steve Nash of forwards. No, the James Harden of forwards for defense.

I don't watch enough Wolves games, but I've been told by numerous posters on here that Rubio is actually a decent defender.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Rubio and Brewer are gamblers. Rubio is a better than average defender. Brewer is always the first guy back on offense. That's great if you control the rebound and get an outlet, but a lot of times he snowbirds and the other team gets a five on four.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Hyperion said:


> Yeah, he has no right to be upset that somehow the wolves still don't have any talent around him despite drafting in the lottery for six years. Then he compares this to KG situation which is the only time every fan of the league wanted a player to leave his team.


Love isn't good enough to lead a team anywhere. So he wants to pull the reverse LeBron, lmao……


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> Lmao!!!!
> 
> LEbron!
> 
> LEBRON!
> 
> YEAAAA! LEBRON!
> 
> I LIKE THE SPURS THOUGH!
> 
> LEBRON! HES ALL I TALK ABOUT!



Shut the **** up.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Shut the **** up.


I love the NBA fans they're amusing.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> I love the NBA fans they're amusing.


That's odd. I think this is the first post you've ever created that didn't have Lebrons name in it at least once.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Love wants to play for Knicks.

He will need to say this like Melo, "Knicks are the only team I'd like to play".

Whatever the Knicks offer, Wolves need to accept. Since Knicks have no first rounders to offer, Wolves have to accept Amare or get nothing in return.

http://www.lakersnation.com/video-k...snation-talks-phil-jackson-knicks/2014/06/11/


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Ballscientist said:


> Love wants to play for Knicks.
> 
> He will need to say this like Melo, "Knicks are the only team I'd like to play".
> 
> *Whatever the Knicks offer, Wolves need to accept.* Since Knicks have no first rounders to offer, Wolves have to accept Amare or get nothing in return.
> 
> http://www.lakersnation.com/video-k...snation-talks-phil-jackson-knicks/2014/06/11/


Not really.

http://msn.foxsports.com/ohio/story/love-calls-cleveland-trade-rumors-not-outlandish-061114


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Love is a better person than Melo, I believe.

Knicks are not the only destination, then Knicks are in deep trouble.

Trade Love, the sooner the better for Wolves.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Ballscientist said:


> Love is a better person than Melo, I believe.
> 
> Knicks are not the only destination, then Knicks are in deep trouble.
> *
> Trade Love, the sooner the better for Wolves.*


Why? It isn't guaranteed that Love is leaving the Wolves.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/479694577025028097

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/479696482459607040

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/479695339616612354

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/479702245521371136


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I think I said it elsewhere in here, but if Minnesota's primarily concerned with attempting to win now then Love/Martin plus maybe one other player (Brewer?) for Thompson/Barnes/Lee makes sense for both sides.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

In theory this is a pretty decent return for Love, but then you have to turn around and give Klay Thompson a Max deal. I don't know if I could stomach that prospect.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

The Wolves need to push to have Draymond Green included in that deal.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/479745604252221441


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Dissonance said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/479745604252221441


Which first rounder?


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> Which first rounder?


It would have to be the 2015 pick with no protection. It's the only one they can trade before 2019. I thought they sent the 2015 to Utah in the salary dump, but apparently it was 2014 and 2017.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Bogg said:


> It would have to be the 2015 pick with no protection. It's the only one they can trade before 2019. I thought they sent the 2015 to Utah in the salary dump, but apparently it was 2014 and 2017.


If they keep Barnes AND Draymond Green, why wouldn't they do that trade??? 

Curry/Iggy/Barnes/Love/Bogut with FA Combo Guard/Green/Speights/Ezeli is a legit top 8.5 guys on both ends of the floor. They could probably snag a Devin Harris or a Ramon Sessions to finish off a VERY nice little rotation. That team could actually get stops along with scoring at a very efficient clip.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Why would GS go after Love in the first place? He plays shitty defense and put up numbers on a team that has never been close to the playoffs.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Lee, Barnes, Thompson, 1st for Love, Martin, Budinger

That's what I want if I'm Minny. And I'd do that if I were the Warriors.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Wilt_The_Stilt said:


> Lee, Barnes, Thompson, 1st for Love, Martin, Budinger
> 
> That's what I want if I'm Minny. And I'd do that if I were the Warriors.


No and no. (double team on no)

It costs Warriors extra $12 million dollars (salary and lx tax)


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

No way I trade Thompson. I feel this trade would probably make Minnesota a playoff team next season.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



MemphisX said:


> No way I trade Thompson. I feel this trade would probably make Minnesota a playoff team next season.


24 yrs old Thompson is potential all-star, 2nd best shooter in the world.

Lee is NBA double-double leader in 2013, all star 2013.

I project Wolves to win 52 wins, 9th seed in the west. Memphis is 8th seed at 53 wins. Lakers at 58 wins.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Rumors says Bulls are not interested in Kevin Love because they like Melo.
Kevin Love is not interested in Nuggets.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> Why would GS go after Love in the first place? He plays shitty defense and put up numbers on a team that has never been close to the playoffs.


Because he's significantly better than Klay Thompson. If they didn't think so, they wouldn't be making that offer.


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



> Adrian Wojnarowski stated in a recent interview that it's becoming more likely that the Timberwolves will hold onto Kevin Love until the trade deadline.
> The Warriors have recently emerged as front-runners in the Love sweepstakes, but Flip Saunders reportedly wants to include both Klay Thompson and Draymond Green in addition to David Lee in the deal, and Golden State is not interested in adding both those pieces. As a franchise, you never want to lose a "franchise player," so it makes sense that Flip wants to see all of his options before pulling the trigger. It's also worth noting that if Joel Embiid slips to Boston with the No. 6 pick in the 2014 draft, their current offer for Love will be greatly improved


Why on earth would Minnesota wait until the trade deadline. Do they really think teams will give up more for even less time with Love?


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Wow. If Embiid somehow slips to #6 , Boston's position improves markedly. I hadn't ever considered that possibility.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Ballscientist said:


> No and no. (double team on no)
> 
> It costs Warriors extra $12 million dollars (salary and lx tax)


They would be under the luxury tax. And be a heck of a team.


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> Wow. If Embiid somehow slips to #6 , Boston's position improves markedly. I hadn't ever considered that possibility.


Depends on how everyone views Embiid now. Pretty risky injury for a big man. Could have major issues going forward.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

News updated

TWolves want 2 young payers as a centerpiece

Harrison Barnes 22 yrs old, Klay Thompson 24 yrs old

plus David Lee and an unprotected first rounder


----------



## Cris

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/480241246640680961
...


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Cris said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/480241246640680961
> ...



See, that part doesn't make any sense. If they'd rather take back a draft pick than have to commit to a max salary for Klay Thompson, why wouldn't Minny just go with Boston's offer? Better picks and no onerous David Lee contract to take back. I think that's more the Lakers hoping they could do that than Minnesota actually wanting it.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Wolves love Klay so much.

How about this,

Harrison Barnes for No. 7?


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

For your info

*We Warriors final offer* was

Harrison Barnes, Draymond Green, David Lee and unprotected first round pick.

It was immediately rejected by Wolves. Warriors has given up.

Barnes is 22 years old and Green is 24 years old.

Now Bulls and Celtics are the final 2.

Bulls offer Gibson, #16 and #19 . Snell is just a filler.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

June 25, 2014



> The Golden State Warriors remain interested in trading for Kevin Love, but they don't want to expand the deal beyond Klay Thompson and David Lee for Love and Kevin Martin.


http://basketball.realgm.com/wireta...de-For-Love-Would-Make-Them-Viable-For-LeBron


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Saunders proposal june 26

Thompson/Barnes/Lee for Love/Martin/No. 13.

Rockets initial proposal for Love (hold)
Parsons/Lin/TJones/NO top 3 protected pick/future picks


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

So Kevin Love has apparently made it clear that he's more than willing to play in Cleveland and stay there if Lebron joins Cleveland. I'm not really sure how I feel about this.


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> So Kevin Love has apparently made it clear that he's more than willing to play in Cleveland and stay there if Lebron joins Cleveland. I'm not really sure how I feel about this.


Was that not just assumed? Did anybody really think he was going to take less money elsewhere to get _away_ from Lebron James? The real question is whether Lebron would go there if Cleveland had a deal together that swapped Wiggins+ for Love. Gilbert might have shot himself in the foot there not keeping his emotions in check back in 2010.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Bogg said:


> *Was that not just assumed?* Did anybody really think he was going to take less money elsewhere to get _away_ from Lebron James? The real question is whether Lebron would go there if Cleveland had a deal together that swapped Wiggins+ for Love. Gilbert might have shot himself in the foot there not keeping his emotions in check back in 2010.


I don't really understand what you're saying here. 

I guess in response to the middle of the post, there's no way Cavs are making this trade to get Love unless Lebron joins the Cavs. They already know he doesn't want to play there so they won't waste away the talent they have now if Love isn't going to stay long term. But, with an offensive genius in David Blatt head coaching now and the idea of having a big three in Irving/Lebron/Love, I think it goes without saying that an opportunity to play on a team like that of which has huge potential isn't an opportunity Love would pass up.


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> I don't really understand what you're saying here.


Well, the news is supposed to be that Love would re-sign in Cleveland if Lebron was there as well. I'm just a little incredulous that anybody expected that Love would walk on Lebron. Wasn't it clear that getting James pretty much allows you to retain anyone you want? I mean, nobody was taking discounts in Miami back when Jermaine Oneal was their second-best player, guys just want to play with Lebron.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Of course, Kevin Love would stay in Cleveland if LeBron went there. It's a given, and yes, assumed (look it up) to be the case. He's not stupid. He'd stay in Minnesota of all places if LeBron went there. Which would never happen ever. And you're not sure how you feel about that he would stay just cuz he'd only go there if the best player in NBA is there? :laugh:


----------



## Maravilla

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I thought that the talent on Cleveland was so awesome as is that anyone would want to sign there outright. What is Love's problem?


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Latest 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/483991657507860480


----------



## Marcus13

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

And that SHOULD be the breaking point in the deal. Minnesota should keep Love until the Trade Deadline if they can't get Thompson as part of the deal.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

The Warriors would almost certainly trade Thompson/Lee for Love. That's a great deal for them. The Wolves seem to want a good bit more than that however.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Comparison with Rockets offer

Parsons vs Thompson
Lin/Jones vs Lee
NO top 3 protected pick vs nothing

Rockets average age is about 23.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Warriors won't put in Klay.

But Cavs now willing to put in Wiggins.

*Cavaliers now willing to include Wiggins in Kevin Love trade offer*


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Dissonance said:


> Warriors won't put in Klay.
> 
> But Cavs now willing to put in Wiggins.
> 
> *Cavaliers now willing to include Wiggins in Kevin Love trade offer*


I'm finding it hard to believe the Cavs are willing to add Wiggy. 

I'm calling bullshit until I see otherwise, at which point I'll have to once again admit to being wrong since I've been pushing "owning up to your posts" so hard these days.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Dissonance said:


> But Cavs now willing to put in Wiggins.
> 
> *Cavaliers now willing to include Wiggins in Kevin Love trade offer*


Now things get truly interesting.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Business just picked up.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

We should have gotten more for Brendan Heywood. That contract of his will really help Cleveland no matter what deal they make.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Dissonance said:


> Warriors won't put in Klay.
> 
> But Cavs now willing to put in Wiggins.
> 
> *Cavaliers now willing to include Wiggins in Kevin Love trade offer*


I still say hold on to Wiggins if possible. Obviously keeping Wiggins and getting Love is perfect, but that sounds impossible at this point. But Bennett is now looking like he might pan out, so rotating him and Thompson at the 4 while keeping Wiggins/Waiters at the 2 is really good depth.

I don't normally agree with Bill Simmons but he wrote an article saying that they should wait it out and see how Wiggins progresses in his first season. Flip Saunders isn't going to be in a hurry to trade Love anyway, so why not wait it out until near the trade deadline? I think Wiggins can contribute immediately, especially on defense and that will go a long way in helping the team.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> I still say hold on to Wiggins if possible. Obviously keeping Wiggins and getting Love is perfect, but that sounds impossible at this point. But Bennett is now looking like he might pan out, so rotating him and Thompson at the 4 while keeping Wiggins/Waiters at the 2 is really good depth.
> 
> I don't normally agree with Bill Simmons but he wrote an article saying that they should wait it out and see how Wiggins progresses in his first season. Flip Saunders isn't going to be in a hurry to trade Love anyway, so why not wait it out until near the trade deadline? I think Wiggins can contribute immediately, especially on defense and that will go a long way in helping the team.


I refused to read the article posted after I saw the guy who wrote it is some fat slob and the site has "You're the 1000th user, CLICK NOW!" popups cluttering the page. 

I'll wait for something more concrete than whatever this "click my link" jaggoff is saying. 

To my knowledge the Cavs came right out and said Wiggins wasn't on the table for Love. Gilbert also came right out and said sports media was flat out making shit up in an interview during the draft, which made me love him.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

the only loser in a waiting game will be the wolves


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> I refused to read the article posted after I saw the guy who wrote it is some fat slob and the site has "You're the 1000th user, CLICK NOW!" popups cluttering the page.
> 
> I'll wait for something more concrete than whatever this "click my link" jaggoff is saying.
> 
> To my knowledge the Cavs came right out and said Wiggins wasn't on the table for Love. Gilbert also came right out and said sports media was flat out making shit up in an interview during the draft, which made me love him.


Slam Magazine reporting it as well and Jeff Zillgitt from USA Today confirmed it too.

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489856840298409984


----------



## edabomb

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Wow. LeBron just wants to stack the deck wherever he goes.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> Slam Magazine reporting it as well and Jeff Zillgitt from USA Today confirmed it too.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489856840298409984


I just can't wait to see if Kevin Love is actually ready to be a primetime playoff performer.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

ESPN guys and Woj remain quiet.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> Slam Magazine reporting it as well and Jeff Zillgitt from USA Today confirmed it too.
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489856840298409984


We will see. We've seen this before. 

Some dope like Broussard tweets something completely fabricated and then the vultures come in and try to get in on the action. 

If they do trade Wiggins I think its a mistake, but good for the Wolves if they can somehow manage to get both first rounder picks from the last 2 years for one of the softest powerforwards in the game who's never even made the playoffs.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Did Sheed ever make it to the Lakers?


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

So speculation appears to be that the proposed deal is Wiggins/Bennett/First/Filler for Love. Apparently Lebron like Thompson/Varejao/Waiters enough to hold onto them.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> So speculation appears to be that the proposed deal is Wiggins/Bennett/First/Filler for Love. Apparently Lebron like Thompson/Varejao/Waiters enough to hold onto them.


I wouldn't do it. Love's numbers are nice, but they are inflated. Bosh put up 24/10 his last season in Toronto and never sniffed those numbers again, but Bosh at least could play defense. Love brings nothing to the defensive side of the floor.

I would roll with Wiggins and rotate Thompson/Bennett before making such a huge decision.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> I wouldn't do it. Love's numbers are nice, but they are inflated. Bosh put up 24/10 his last season in Toronto and never sniffed those numbers again, but Bosh at least could play defense. Love brings nothing to the defensive side of the floor.
> 
> I would roll with Wiggins and rotate Thompson/Bennett before making such a huge decision.


I'm actually inclined to agree. Wiggins might just be special.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> I'm actually inclined to agree. Wiggins might just be special.


Just from an athleticism standpoint, Irving, Wiggins, and LeBron goes unmatched at the 1, 2, and 3. LeBron isn't #23 LeBron anymore but he's still an athletic freak. Wiggins is up near #23 LeBron athleticism-wise.

Cleveland just has so much appeal with the young guys because of their contracts. You get Wiggins for 4 years on a rookie contract, Bennett for 3 more (I think this is correct). If you trade for Love and he signs a max extension, isn't that going to promote the same problem Miami just had?


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Rumors: Bulls Noah for Kevin Love


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Here's the article from the Grantland Staff. No Zach Lowe but still a good piece. On a side note, Zach Lowe seems to be the only Grantlander that people respect lol.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-would-you-trade-wiggins-for-love-shootaround/



> That brings me to the third thing I’d bring to Gilbert’s attention: You know who else doesn’t need to make a move right away? The Cleveland Cavaliers! What’s the rush? Why do we have to finish our roster in July? What’s wrong with riding out the current nucleus for a few months, getting everyone in a training camp with LeBron, then seeing how everyone meshes with him?
> 
> What if Wiggins shows signs — day after day after day — of becoming the Pippen to LeBron’s MJ? What if LeBron is throwing him crazy alley-oops left and right and gushing, “I’ve always wanted to play with a freak athlete like this”?
> 
> What if Wiggins and LeBron are roaming around defensively like coyotes, stripping dudes at midcourt, jumping passing lines and basically looking like mid-1990s Pippen and MJ reincarnated?
> 
> What if sending Wiggins to Playing With LeBron Camp turned out to be the greatest thing that ever happened to Andrew Wiggins? What if this single-handedly altered his professional destiny? What if LeBron turned him into his basketball clone, much like Jordan brainwashed Pippen into evolving into his perfect sidekick?
> 
> *Here’s the point: THE CAVALIERS HAVE TO FIND OUT. And they’ll know, or at least have a really good idea, by December or January.*


Point is, there's no need to trade away Wiggins right now (and Bennett for that matter) without seeing how this team gels first.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

If the Cavs do indeed want to go through with this, they are obvious favorites to land him so most likely we know now where Love would end up. 

I just hope to god that this is a case of the Cavs considering doing the trade at some point in the season if Wiggins doesn't work at first rather than try to do it as soon as possible. Kevin Love is one of my favorite players and I would love to have him on the Cavaliers, so I would be happy regardless, but with all the talk about the amount of potential Wiggins has, I feel like you have to let this thing pan out out first and see how good Wiggins is.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Well here's one report saying the Cavs' stance hasn't changed:

http://msn.foxsports.com/ohio/story...-hasn-t-changed-as-love-talks-continue-071714



> While the Cleveland Cavaliers may be open to at least allowing the name of Andrew Wiggins to be mentioned in trade talks with the Minnesota Timberwolves, nothing on the Cavs' end has changed.
> 
> They are still very determined to keep Wiggins for a long time, multiple sources told FOX Sports Ohio on Thursday.
> 
> Wiggins was the No. 1 overall pick in the June draft. His name has come up frequently as someone the Timberwolves would want in return for star power forward Kevin Love.
> 
> Wiggins is one thing, but when the Timberwolves start talking Wiggins, Tristan Thompson and multiple first-round picks for Love ... well, the discussion doesn't get very far.
> 
> So the bottom line is the Cavs and Timberwolves do not have a deal, and from the sounds of things, aren't even close.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489916978774044672


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489917965043646464


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/489917965043646464


So...does this just mean that Lebron has told Love he wants him to play with him in Cleveland?


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

No one reply to the post above me please.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> No one reply to the post above me please.


I'm asking because I'm wondering if there is anything else to it. It seems like "so what? " kind of information about stuff we already know.


----------



## KFitz14

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

If the report is true, it kind of puts the Cavs in a bind because it forces them to pick whether or not they want to win now (and appease their superstar) or be patient and potentially win even more later.

I think waiting until around the trade deadline helps both teams. It lets Cleveland see if Wiggins/Bennett are good enough to be worth keeping (though more time may be needed to tell for sure obviously) and have this team be REALLY REALLY good in a couple of years. For Minnesota they're still hoping for the LeMarcus Aldridge situation where the team surprises and does well and Love decides he wants to stay. Either way it would probably be clear by the trade deadline.

If the trade happens the Cavs might score 110 a night, but give up 105. Not a title team right away IMO.


----------



## Najee

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Kevin Love and Corey Brewer for Andrew Wiggins, Dion Waiters and a first-round pick as the principals makes sense to me. 

Cleveland realizes it is not going to get one of the very best players in the NBA if it does not included one of the most prospects since LeBron James (who became redundant with James returning to Cleveland). Waiters moves a potential chemistry issue (he recently said he will not be coming off the bench in Cleveland). 

In return, Love immediately fills a rebounding and outside shooting void. Brewer will give the Cavaliers another athletic wing player who can play small forward and shooting guard.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Dissonance said:


> Warriors won't put in Klay.
> 
> But Cavs now willing to put in Wiggins.
> 
> *Cavaliers now willing to include Wiggins in Kevin Love trade offer*


If they're going to trade Wiggins they should actually be chasing Thompson, not Love.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Blatt again saying everything is just rumors and feels no need to talk to Wiggins because none of it is true. Damn lying reporters!


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

BREAKING NEWS!

Remember a week ago where the majority of you first said Lebron would never leave for the Cavs, then he was going for sure because Twitter said so, then he was never leaving Miami again because he had dinner with Wade, then he went to the Cavs and you guys knew it all along?


You guys really need to calm the **** down with all this.


----------



## c_dog

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

cavs should not trade wiggins. not if they want to make another bone head move like drafting bennett #1 overall.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



KFitz14 said:


> If the report is true, it kind of puts the Cavs in a bind because it forces them to pick whether or not they want to win now (and appease their superstar) or be patient and potentially win even more later.
> 
> I think waiting until around the trade deadline helps both teams. It lets Cleveland see if Wiggins/Bennett are good enough to be worth keeping (though more time may be needed to tell for sure obviously) and have this team be REALLY REALLY good in a couple of years. For Minnesota they're still hoping for the LeMarcus Aldridge situation where the team surprises and does well and Love decides he wants to stay. Either way it would probably be clear by the trade deadline.
> 
> If the trade happens the Cavs might score 110 a night, but give up 105. Not a title team right away IMO.



Nothing Kevin Love has done in the NBA suggests he is a player that is more win now than Andrew Wiggins.

Is 3rd option Kevin Love averaging 17/9 with bad defense worth Andrew Wiggins? Because there is no way in hell he is averaging 26/13 with LeBron/Kyrie. Also, he opens up a hole because the Cavs already lack rim protection.

Wiggins solves some problems because although he isn't a natural SG, but he doesn't have to be with Kyrie and LeBron on the team. All he has to do is guard the toughest perimeter threat (instead of LeBron), make open shots and run the floor. Just being able to let him do that while letting LeBron roam is worth more than Kevin Love IMO.


----------



## FormerPHCrew

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I hate the Cavs. Wiggins/LeBron really is gonna be something I hope they don't mess it up, but they will :/ .

i heard it's gonna be
Waiters/Thompson/Wiggins
for
Love/GR3


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I don't buy the rumor. I don't think the Cavs part with Wiggins before even seeing them play together. If anything I bet LeBron is calling Love to try and get Love to force the Wolves hand to make the deal without Wiggins (by saying he won't re-sign anywhere else).

But then again you never know... It is the Cavs...


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/1...iggins-deal-kevin-love-minnesota-timberwolves

_The Cleveland Cavaliers are now offering No. 1 pick Andrew Wiggins in attempts to trade for Minnesota Timberwolves All-Star forward Kevin Love, league sources have confirmed._


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

As I said before Bron's arrival. That if signed in Cleveland the Cavs will move Wiggins. I said that then and i will stick to it. Gilbert will not make the same mistake he made first 7 yrs of Bron's career. If that mean shipping Wiggins he will do that.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Does GS have a trade exception or something? I've been using these trade checker machines online and I can't get Love to GS without Bogut or Lee leaving.

Just for fun:

GS gets: Kevin Love, Kevin Martin
CLE gets: Klay Thompson, Ognjen Kuzmic, Ronny Turiaf
MIN gets: Dion Waiters, Anthony Bennett, David Lee, Brendan Haywood, GS 1st round pick, CLE 1st round pick

Seems fair to all?


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> Does GS have a trade exception or something? I've been using these trade checker machines online and I can't get Love to GS without Bogut or Lee leaving.
> 
> Just for fun:
> 
> GS gets: Kevin Love, Kevin Martin
> CLE gets: Klay Thompson, Ognjen Kuzmic, Ronny Turiaf
> MIN gets: Dion Waiters, Anthony Bennett, David Lee, Brendan Haywood, GS 1st round pick, CLE 1st round pick
> 
> Seems fair to all?


GS trade exception 9.8 million expired last weekend.
suggestion:

Martin to Cavs

Anthony Bennett to GS


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> Does GS have a trade exception or something? I've been using these trade checker machines online and I can't get Love to GS without Bogut or Lee leaving.
> 
> Just for fun:
> 
> GS gets: Kevin Love, Kevin Martin
> CLE gets: Klay Thompson, Ognjen Kuzmic, Ronny Turiaf
> MIN gets: Dion Waiters, Anthony Bennett, David Lee, Brendan Haywood, GS 1st round pick, CLE 1st round pick
> 
> Seems fair to all?


Klay Thompson on the Cavaliers? God damn they would be so much fun to watch.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

So the new word is that the 76ers love Dion Waiters (and are willing to move Thad Young).


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/491808726425157632
How would this trade suit everyone?

Cavs get Kevin Love

76ers get Dion Waiters and Kevin Martin

Wolves get Wiggins, Bennett, Thad, cap filler, Cleveland 1st Rounder


I simply don't see the Wolves getting much better value than that.

The 76ers do it because they covet Waiters and because Martin's contract is better than Thad's this season and next and only 1 year longer.

The only real question is whether Cleveland wants to give up all four of those assets for Love.


----------



## kbdullah

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Either send Kevin Martin to the Cavaliers or take out Bennett and I think that deal would be good. 76ers wouldn't keep Martin anyway.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I think all this talk that the T Wolves should be getting 2 #1 overall picks (Bennett still has potential) and another 1st round pick for 1 player is ridiculous. K Love is good but he's not worth 3 first rounders.


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> I think all this talk that the T Wolves should be getting 2 #1 overall picks (Bennett still has potential) and another 1st round pick for 1 player is ridiculous. K Love is good but he's not worth 3 first rounders.


Bennett was a terrible pick and as of right now I would say the most you can hope for is a capable role player. Picks that get labeled busts have insane amounts of pressure. I can't think of the a recent top pick that was considered a bust that turned it around. Or really any lottery pick. Billups is the only one I can think of.

Wiggins is the only real value in that offer, Bennett has potential but at this point it's not looking good and the 1st round pick really won't be much when it's a team of Irving, Waiters, Lebron, Love, Varejao, Thompson, Miller.

3 1st round picks for a guy that can put up consistent 23 and 12, is a great passer/outlet passer, good offensive rebounder, and a very good three point shooter? Sure his defense is bad but you can build around that to maximize it. Not that I'm saying their current team is capable of that at the moment.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

The fact that the deal is not already done makes me think Wiggins was never on the table. I'm not sure Cleveland can go wrong either way. Keeping Wiggins or trading him for Love are both great options. Minnesota on the other hand can't afford to keep Love and lose him for nothing later. They need the trade to happen more than anyone.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Sir Patchwork said:


> The fact that the deal is not already done makes me think Wiggins was never on the table. I'm not sure Cleveland can go wrong either way. Keeping Wiggins or trading him for Love are both great options. Minnesota on the other hand can't afford to keep Love and lose him for nothing later. They need the trade to happen more than anyone.


Wiggins never was on the table, like you said.


----------



## c_dog

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

if wiggins was ever on the table the wolves are greedy bastards for not doing the trade the moment he was offered. at first i was hoping the cavs keep wiggins, but then as a raptors fan i wouldn't mind seeing wiggins traded to minny for a rookie contract rental before coming back up to toronto.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Wiggins should never be on the table for Kevin Love.

Not even sure why people think Kevin Love is a good fit or a player that is going to get them to the next level.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



MemphisX said:


> Wiggins should never be on the table for Kevin Love.
> 
> Not even sure why people think Kevin Love is a good fit or a player that is going to get them to the next level.


If Love even made the playoffs once I might disagree. But of course he hasn't through the entire span of his career, and hes blamed everyone but himself throughout the whole process.


----------



## l0st1

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Love gets a lot of flack for not making the playoffs. Well first it's the Western Conference so basically 50 win requirement, and second exactly how much help as he had. He has Rubio is was out for a year, is still recovering and can't score for shit. Kevin Martin. Pekovic. And then a bunch of journeyman role players. Outside of Kevin Martin for his stint there he hasn't had a second consistent scorer. Pekovic is solid but has constant injury issues. 

First two years of Love's career he was handcuffed by Kevin McHale. And then he had that year that was basically lost due to injuries. So really it's been three season(2011, 2012, 2014) where he was healthy and the star of the team.

Don't get me wrong he should catch some shit for it but I feel like it gets blown out of proportion a bit.


----------



## goodfoot

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

If Love is saying he is gonna explore FA, that is going to knock down his trade value. No one is paying top dollar for a one-year rental. Can't Cleveland wait the year out and then sign him next year?


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I wouldn't put too much stock into Love not making the playoffs, he's been in the ultra-competitive West and been on terrible teams.

Look at Kevin Garnett. How many first round exits did he have, 7? Then when he finally got some talent around him and he made it to the WCF. Then he went 3 straight years without making the playoffs, gets traded to Boston playing with 2 other all-stars and he finally wins an NBA title. So yeah he made the playoffs at least 7 more times than Love has, but when you're consistently exiting the first round, you're still not a winner so doesn't that in turn make him a loser too? 

If you put Kevin Love on Cleveland, all of a sudden he's likely at least on an ECF team and would shed his loser label, just like KG did. I still however don't think they should trade Wiggins for him.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



goodfoot said:


> If Love is saying he is gonna explore FA, that is going to knock down his trade value. No one is paying top dollar for a one-year rental. Can't Cleveland wait the year out and then sign him next year?


Affording him will be a really difficult task since Irving just signed a max deal with Cleveland. Only way I see Cleveland being able to afford him is if Lebron opts out of his deal next season to sign a new max deal, but even then that's a really big stretch there as I'm still not sure they can afford him after that. The only possible way is through trading at the moment.


----------



## Milos.Djuric

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Wiggins signed for Cavaliers can't be traded in the next thirty days, but this only makes trade for Love more possible as this way they are trading a player with a salary instead of only rights.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Today Celtics have told Wolves that they will submit a better package than Cavs, Bulls and GS. I agree with Ainge that Bulls offer is bad. Centerpiece for Bulls is Gibson obviously.

The Cavaliers are offering Andrew Wiggins, the Warriors have Klay Thompson and the Bulls have a package of Taj Gibson, Nikola Mirotic, and Doug McDermott.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

How can someone put together a better package than the Bulls?

I've been informed by one Bulls poster that the Wolves probably view Mirotic as more valuable to them than Andrew Wiggins. Another prominent Bulls poster said Mirotic would have gone first in the 2013 draft even before we saw how the players panned out their first year.

He's basically Dirk Nowitzki but possibly better. Wiggins is the same prospect as Tyrus Thomas.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Wiggins doesn't look half as dumb as Tyrus Thomas, but I haven't seen his Wonderlic tests


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> I wouldn't put too much stock into Love not making the playoffs, he's been in the ultra-competitive West and been on terrible teams.
> 
> Look at Kevin Garnett. How many first round exits did he have, 7? Then when he finally got some talent around him and he made it to the WCF. Then he went 3 straight years without making the playoffs, gets traded to Boston playing with 2 other all-stars and he finally wins an NBA title. So yeah he made the playoffs at least 7 more times than Love has, but when you're consistently exiting the first round, you're still not a winner so doesn't that in turn make him a loser too?
> 
> If you put Kevin Love on Cleveland, all of a sudden he's likely at least on an ECF team and would shed his loser label, just like KG did. I still however don't think they should trade Wiggins for him.



Yes, Kevin Love would not be losing. He also would not be putting up 25/12 either. These numbers have people in fantasy island with Kevin Love because every year I watch him and I have never seen an elite player. Elite numbers but his on the court play does not support it. Never has.

So when you realize you traded Andrew Wiggins for a glorified Carlos Boozer with range it just becomes stupid. You know 25 year old Carlos Boozer popped a 24.1 PER and was doing 21/12/3 on a 51 win team. Would anyone had advocated trading a #1 overall pick with superstar potential for Carlos freaking Boozer in 2007 even after watching him and Deron take the Jazz to the WCFs?

It is beyond stupid.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I still say wait it out and see how Cleveland does with Wiggins first before you even think about trading him. Otherwise it would just be beyond idiotic to trade Wiggins in my opinion.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

So ESPN says Wiggins, Bennett and a first for Love is a "sure thing". If that's true, which I highly doubt, then Gilbert is a moron. 

Why wouldn't they just wait a year, see how Wiggins fits in, and just outright sign Love next offseason while giving up no assests other than maybe pairing a pick to dump Haywards contract to make cap room for Love?


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Lebron only has a 2 year contract


----------



## roux

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Going to love it when Love signs a long term deal in Cleveland and Lebron bolts in two seasons .


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



e-monk said:


> Lebron only has a 2 year contract


Yes. So why wouldn't you try to maximize a title within that time by keeping Wiggins and Bennett? Adding Love and gutting your depth to do so isn't all that smart of a move. Just ask Miami what no depth does for making Lebron stay.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> So ESPN says Wiggins, Bennett and a first for Love is a "sure thing". If that's true, which I highly doubt, then Gilbert is a moron.
> 
> Why wouldn't they just wait a year, see how Wiggins fits in, and just outright sign Love next offseason while giving up no assests other than maybe pairing a pick to dump Haywards contract to make cap room for Love?


PG- Irving, ??
SG- Waiters, Ray Allen?
SF- LeBron, Mike Miller, James Jones
PF- Love, Thompson
C- Andy, Haywood?

vs.

PG- Irving, ??
SG- Wiggins, Waiters, Allen
SF- LeBron, Mike Miller, James Jones
PF- Thompson, Bennett
C- Andy, Haywood?

Either way you look at it, they need a veteran backup PG and more PF/C depth.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Cleveland's biggest oversight (assuming Wiggins is dealt) is having the opportunity for long-term flexibility. If they keep Wiggins and Bennett, they are playing those guys on rookie contracts for the next what, 4-5 years? If you trade Wiggins and re-sign Love, now you have 3 max guys again just like the Heat. Why would they do this? I guess their reasoning is that Love and Irving won't be older/broken down like Wade and Bosh?


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I don't really understand why the Cavs are willing to trade away all these guys for Love. They're going to be cap-locked like the Heat were. I don't think he's so good that the Cavs will be the dominate team if they get him. If they swing him WITHOUT giving up Wiggins then they could have something. Especially if the cap gets raised significantly after the 2016 CBA.


----------



## Pyrex

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Yes. So why wouldn't you try to maximize a title within that time by keeping Wiggins and Bennett? Adding Love and gutting your depth to do so isn't all that smart of a move. Just ask Miami what no depth does for making Lebron stay.


So Bennet goes from being the biggest bust of all-time, to "Depth" now? 

Hilarious.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pyrex said:


> So Bennet goes from being the biggest bust of all-time, to "Depth" now?
> 
> Hilarious.


Well, maybe I'm a weirdo, but I don't write a guy off after 1 season. I also watch summer league where Bennett was one of the better looking players out there.

But hey, who's to argue the great basketball mind of Dr Pyrex from Saskatchewan.....


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> PG- Irving, ??
> SG- Waiters, Ray Allen?
> SF- LeBron, Mike Miller, James Jones
> PF- Love, Thompson
> C- Andy, Haywood?
> 
> vs.
> 
> PG- Irving, ??
> SG- Wiggins, Waiters, Allen
> SF- LeBron, Mike Miller, James Jones
> PF- Thompson, Bennett
> C- Andy, Haywood?
> 
> Either way you look at it, they need a veteran backup PG and more PF/C depth.


They will have no choice but to take back JJ Barea. That will at least help their PG depth a touch.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> So ESPN says Wiggins, Bennett and a first for Love is a "sure thing". If that's true, which I highly doubt, then Gilbert is a moron.
> 
> Why wouldn't they just wait a year, see how Wiggins fits in, and just outright sign Love next offseason while giving up no assests other than maybe pairing a pick to dump Haywards contract to make cap room for Love?


Minny isn't going to let it get to that point. They know that there's no way Love's staying with the roster they have now no matter what kind of deal they offer. They will trade him away sooner or later.

Getting Love isn't as bad a move as everyone here is making it out to be. First off he fits in perfectly with the system that will most likely be run, not to mention even if he isn't necessarily putting up the same scoring numbers, he is still a fantastic rebounder. The guy even broke Moses Malone's double double record. I don't think people here understand how dominant a Love/Varejao PF/C combo would be. And to top it all off, the guy has proven himself to be a great player to have close out a game when needed. 

My biggest problem with this is that they aren't giving Wiggins the chance to play with the Cavs first and see how it fits in. He's doing great so far in the summer league, and with the potential he has, why would you want to trade away him for anyone at this point especially when the other guy being offered here (Bennett) is also suddenly showing that he has some potential to be a good player? They're rushing something that doesn't need to be rushed. No one else is trying to get Love at this point. So why not just wait it out?



e-monk said:


> Lebron only has a 2 year contract


Didn't he say that he wants to finish out his career in Cleveland?


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Yes. So why wouldn't you try to maximize a title within that time by keeping Wiggins and Bennett? Adding Love and gutting your depth to do so isn't all that smart of a move. Just ask Miami what no depth does for making Lebron stay.


maximize in short term doesn't = waiting for unproven kids to mature


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Didn't he say that he wants to finish out his career in Cleveland?


is that what he said this time?


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



e-monk said:


> maximize in short term doesn't = waiting for unproven kids to mature


Its one season without Love weighed against a future with Love, Wiggins and Bennett. 

Its a no brainer in my books.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

other teams can take shots at Love as UFA though so that's a little risky - How would Love look next to Dwight for instance and where would you rather live Houston or Cleveland? (w/o even considering the tax implications of living in Texas vs Ohio)


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



e-monk said:


> other teams can take shots at Love as UFA though so that's a little risky - How would Love look next to Dwight for instance and where would you rather live Houston or Cleveland? (w/o even considering the tax implications of living in Texas vs Ohio)


He wants to go to Cleveland. If you think any big name free agent is going to play with Dwight Howard I think you'll be fairly surprised. 

A Josh Smith type player? Maybe Rondo? Sure. But there's no chance a top 5 player who can pick any team he wants goes to play with a guy the majority of the league despises.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

not to mention other team's could try to trade for him in the meanwhile - he might find he likes living in the bay area and the idea of moving to Cleveland after a year in The City might sound like Hell and that + the extra year of Bird Rights eligibility and the money that entails might make the idea of living somewhere nice even that much more palatable


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> He wants to go to Cleveland. If you think any big name free agent is going to play with Dwight Howard I think you'll be fairly surprised.
> 
> A Josh Smith type player? Maybe Rondo? Sure. But there's no chance a top 5 player who can pick any team he wants goes to play with a guy the majority of the league despises.


trust me, no one wants to go to Cleveland


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



e-monk said:


> trust me, no one wants to go to Cleveland


Uhhh, Lebron and multiple other free agents kind of just proved otherwise, didn't they?


People continue to make a big deal about cities during FA. How many players play for a one team but live in LA or Miami? Quite a few. The season lasts half the year, and they're on the road for half of that as well. They can live wherever they want. 

Who the hell wants to live in Chicago? Its cold. Its crime ridden. But when MJ was there, I bet no free agents really gave a shit, did they?

If you're a real basketball player, you weigh money and a chance to win way above where you think will be the best place for night clubs. That's why losers like Dwight Howard will never win a championship.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Uhhh, Lebron and multiple other free agents kind of just proved otherwise, didn't they?


no, this proved that they were willing to go to Cleveland to play with Lebron (who came from there so thinks about it differently)

and 'willing to' isn't the same as 'wanting to'

while it remains to be seen what will happen there is no doubt that if the Cavs don't trade for Love they do run the risk of either watching someone else trade for him or letting other teams get into a bidding war with them once he eventually does become a free agent


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Who the hell wants to live in Chicago? Its cold. Its crime ridden. But when MJ was there, I bet no free agents really gave a shit, did they?


a)Chicago is about 20 times better than Cleveland as a place to live (especially if you have NBA player money)
b)What free agents are you talking about? please name all the impact free agents that joined Mike's Bulls during the 90s


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



e-monk said:


> no, this proved that they were willing to go to Cleveland to play with Lebron (who came from there so thinks about it differently)
> 
> and 'willing to' aint the same as 'wanting to'
> 
> while it remains to be seen what will happen there is no doubt that if the Cavs don't trade for Love they do run the risk of either watching someone else trade for him or letting other teams get into a bidding war with them once he eventually does become a free agent


We'll see. I wouldn't be too worried if I was Cleveland. If Love says he wants to go to Cleveland and only Cleveland, no ones trading shit to the Wolves. In fact, what would happen and what I expect to happen is just that, and then the Wolves end up having to take a deal centered around Waiters and one of Thompson/Bennett. 

They've waited too long. They ****ed themselves in the end. As far as Love is concerned I'm sure he's already in Cleveland.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

when did Love say "Cleveland and only Cleveland"?


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

truthfully it depends , you aren't going to get a lot of who are typical African-Americans to play in Utah if they have any kind of real choice in the matter .

Cleveland sure , Miami and Houston definitely nyc and LA hell yeah

Milwaukee, Oklahoma city and Sacramento meh

the reasons are pretty simple , money means a lot but it means less if you can get the same elsewhere and a player just like anyone else would want to be comfortable where he plays as R-star said you don't spend all year there but you do spend a lot of time there .

money, comfort and winning(in most cases in that order) seem to be the big factors .


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



e-monk said:


> when did Love say "Cleveland and only Cleveland"?


He hasn't. Where did I say he did? Hes said he'd like to play there though.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> We'll see. I wouldn't be too worried if I was Cleveland. *If Love says he wants to go to Cleveland and only Cleveland*, no ones trading shit to the Wolves. In fact, what would happen and what I expect to happen is just that, and then the Wolves end up having to take a deal centered around Waiters and one of Thompson/Bennett.
> 
> They've waited too long. They ****ed themselves in the end. As far as Love is concerned I'm sure he's already in Cleveland.


so this is just some hypothetical for the sake of argument without any substantiation? Because if I'm Cleveland until he actually does come right out and say this then they do need to worry about other teams coming in either by trading for him or offering competing offers in free agency


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Da Grinch said:


> truthfully it depends , you aren't going to get a lot of who are typical African-Americans to play in Utah if they have any kind of real choice in the matter .
> 
> Cleveland sure , Miami and Houston definitely nyc and LA hell yeah
> 
> Milwaukee, Oklahoma city and Sacramento meh
> 
> the reasons are pretty simple , money means a lot but it means less if you can get the same elsewhere and a player just like anyone else would want to be comfortable where he plays as R-star said you don't spend all year there but you do spend a lot of time there .
> 
> money, comfort and winning(in most cases in that order) seem to be the big factors .


so if the choice is 

a)equal or (in the case of a team that trades for him and therefore holds his Bird rights or is based in a zip code advantageous for tax relief purposes) greater money

and

b)similar chances to compete

then doesn't 

c)nice, non-depressing shit hole, of a place to play 

come into consideration?


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> He hasn't. Where did I say he did? Hes said he'd like to play there though.


Don't start backtracking now, you clearly said that Kevin Love signed a lease on an apartment in Cleveland this past week. Just own it.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Bogg said:


> Don't start backtracking now, you clearly said that Kevin Love signed a lease on an apartment in Cleveland this past week. Just own it.


That's my move. Don't you dare try to R-Star me.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



e-monk said:


> is that what he said this time?





> I always believed that I’d return to Cleveland and *finish my career there.* I just didn’t know when. After the season, free agency wasn’t even a thought. But I have two boys and my wife, Savannah, is pregnant with a girl. I started thinking about what it would be like to raise my family in my hometown. I looked at other teams, but I wasn’t going to leave Miami for anywhere except Cleveland. The more time passed, the more it felt right. This is what makes me happy.


The exact quote from his letter. That could change, but given that he's won 2 titles now, I don't think he plans on ever leaving to win titles elsewhere.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> He wants to go to Cleveland. If you think any big name free agent is going to play with Dwight Howard I think you'll be fairly surprised.
> 
> A Josh Smith type player? Maybe Rondo? Sure. But there's no chance a top 5 player who can pick any team he wants goes to play with a guy the majority of the league despises.


Now wait a minute, lets not get carried away with this. Kevin Love has said he's intrigued by the idea of going to Cleveland and he would sign a long term deal IF sent down there, but I doubt that Cleveland is currently up there on his list of places that he wants to go to if he somehow manages to become a free agent. Hell not too long ago it was being said that Love was favoring going to the Warriors over the Cavaliers. 

And even then, again, how the hell are the Cavaliers supposed to afford him? Is there something I'm missing here? Unless Lebron opts out of his deal, I don't see how they are going to be able to afford Love in Free Agency assuming he doesn't take a long pay cut. 

So basically at this point, Cleveland's only option if they do want him is to get him through trades (assuming I'm not missing anything, which I probably am).


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Did something just happen to two of the pages we had on here?


----------



## Kreutz35

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Everything after noon today just disappeared on the website...


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Weird, the same thing happened over at wrestlingforum.com


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

It's because of the conspiracy thread in EBB.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Wiggins is very raw.
Positives:
Superb athlete who can jump high and is also quick: allows him to draw fouls even if he doesn't do anything else well.
His pluses are that he's willing to play defense and his elite athleticism could theoretically make him a Lebron like defensive force at SF whose good at both man and help defense.
On offense, he's got a nice jumper for his age

Now for the negatives:
-he has a very poor handle. It's really hard to see how a guy with his athletic ability and playing ball for most of his life has such a poor dribble
-he has no left hand so to speak
-he only has two moves a spin because he can't use his left and a step back jumper. Can't emphasize enough how bad is ballhandling and it makes him easy to defend (see Marcus Smart on him in college and Canaan in summer league)
-he's not strong (he looks Lebron from Lebron's sophomore year in high school) so even though he's quick and can jump his finishing inside is nowhere near what you would expect

He's got some other things that all rookie's have that don't really worry about his development (i.e. he doesn't bend his knees when defending so that guys like Canaan when put on an island with him were able to get around him. This stuff will get better and likely he'll get stronger although his narrow shoulders worry me on the strength front). He's going to be a good player just due to his defense and his jumpshot but it's really hard to know if he'll ever be able to use his full athleticism to be like a T-Mac. This was reflected in his college stats were the advanced metrics, he didn't really shine. Personally I think he maxes out as more of Kawhii Leonard type which is still really good but I don't see him being an MVP calibre player and if he ends up picking up the skills to reach that level it's going to take several years. The Cavs don't have several years: there bigs right now are Bennett, Tristan Thompson, and Anderson. Only Anderson is an championship calibre starter and he's hurt half the time. Combine that with how long I suspect it will take Wiggins to develop and it's really not surprising that the Cavs are willing to do a Wiggins/Love swap


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Rumors now going around that Love won't sign an extension with any team he's traded to, including the Cavs. I just see this as a leverage pull for Cleveland not to trade Wiggins because Love will get more money by becoming an unrestricted free agent and re-signing with the Cavs vs. signing an extension.

The uncertainty aspect of Love not committing to Cleveland should help the Cavs retain Wiggins I would think. But who knows at this point.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



e-monk said:


> maximize in short term doesn't = waiting for unproven kids to mature


Uh, no. It means waiting exactly 1 year. Not sure why we're acting like 1 year is 5 now.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Uh, no. It means waiting exactly 1 year. Not sure why we're acting like 1 year is 5 now.


Because Lebron!


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

weirdness


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I can't see any posts in here past emonks at 360. I don't know whats going on.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

the last post I see is from 5pm last night and I know I've posted since then and see that other people have posted but.... weirdness


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



e-monk said:


> the last post I see is from 5pm last night and I know I've posted since then and see that other people have posted but.... weirdness


And I can see this post..... quite odd.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Something is going on with Vertical Scope. I'll shoot and email and see what's with the disappearing posts.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Now wait a minute, lets not get carried away with this. Kevin Love has said he's intrigued by the idea of going to Cleveland and he would sign a long term deal IF sent down there, but I doubt that Cleveland is currently up there on his list of places that he wants to go to if he somehow manages to become a free agent. Hell not too long ago it was being said that Love was favoring going to the Warriors over the Cavaliers.
> 
> And even then, again, how the hell are the Cavaliers supposed to afford him? Is there something I'm missing here? Unless Lebron opts out of his deal, I don't see how they are going to be able to afford Love in Free Agency assuming he doesn't take a long pay cut.
> 
> So basically at this point, Cleveland's only option if they do want him is to get him through trades (assuming I'm not missing anything, which I probably am).


They have a ton of guys that could come off the books next offseason, plus they could package Haywood with their 1st rounder. It could be done to form a core of Bron, Love, Wiggins and Irving while filling the rest of the roster out with guys like Miami did.


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> They have a ton of guys that could come off the books next offseason, plus they could package Haywood with their 1st rounder. It could be done to form a core of Bron, Love, Wiggins and Irving while filling the rest of the roster out with guys like Miami did.


Haywood's actually a sneaky-intriguing contract next summer because overnight he goes from a $2 million end-of-the-bench veteran in a suit to a $10 million fully non-guaranteed contract (the last year of the big deal Cuban gave him back in 2010 that Charlotte picked up via amnesty waivers). It's a really nice way for a team over the cap to add another semi-major piece if Gilbert really wanted to get all superteamy for a year or two.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Bogg said:


> Haywood's actually a sneaky-intriguing contract next summer because overnight he goes from a $2 million end-of-the-bench veteran in a suit to a $10 million fully non-guaranteed contract (the last year of the big deal Cuban gave him back in 2010 that Charlotte picked up via amnesty waivers). It's a really nice way for a team over the cap to add another semi-major piece if Gilbert really wanted to get all superteamy for a year or two.


Yep. The Cavs are pretty well set up to add another major piece without giving up much in assets.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

So it sounds like Wiggins really is going to be traded for Love.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/1...gust-according-timberwolves-owner-glen-taylor



> In the latest signal that a Kevin Love deal to Cleveland is inevitable, Timberwolves owner Glen Taylor told the St. Paul Pioneer Press that a trade of the All-Star forward is "likely" by Aug. 23 or Aug. 24.
> 
> Aug. 23 happens to be the first day Cavaliers rookie Andrew Wiggins is eligible to be traded.
> 
> Cleveland signed Wiggins to a four-year deal on July 24, but because of league rules on rookie deals, the Cavs are not able to trade him for at least 30 days.
> 
> "I'm saying it's most likely because Kevin has made it pretty clear that that's what he wants to do," Taylor told the Pioneer Press, adding that his preference is to keep Love in Minnesota.


I still think it's a mistake but if the rumors of Corey Brewer being included as part of the deal, that does help make it more even IMO.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

This is a bad deal for Cleveland. Love is a malcontent who's quit on his team multiple times. I'm not sure how that's worth the last two number 1 overall picks and then some.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Also I just used the trade checker machines and I don't see how Brewer fits in, his salary is too large. So it's likely going to be Wiggins, Bennett, Haywood, #1 pick in 2018 for Love. Not a good trade for Cleveland IMO.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> Also I just used the trade checker machines and I don't see how Brewer fits in, his salary is too large. So it's likely going to be Wiggins, Bennett, Haywood, #1 pick in 2018 for Love. Not a good trade for Cleveland IMO.


Supposedly Philly might be used as a 3rd team to move Thad Young to Minny. I haven't checked, but I'd assume that would have Bennett going to Philly so they can continue to stock pile.


----------



## MojoPin

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> This is a bad deal for Cleveland. Love is a malcontent who's quit on his team multiple times. I'm not sure how that's worth the last two number 1 overall picks and then some.


Bennett is a #1 in name only though.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> This is a bad deal for Cleveland. Love is a malcontent who's quit on his team multiple times. I'm not sure how that's worth the last two number 1 overall picks and then some.


Minnesota had no one to blame but themselves for this mess. They refused to give love the max because Rubio. So now they have to deal him instead of having one more year on his contract. 

Note they are trying to leverage Cleveland out of every player for love when all the Cavs have to do is be patient and wait for love to leave in a year and they get him for free (without giving up anything other than money which in any other situation is the exact opposite of free)


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Supposedly Philly might be used as a 3rd team to move Thad Young to Minny. I haven't checked, but I'd assume that would have Bennett going to Philly so they can continue to stock pile.


According to the trade machine, Cleveland is the team that needs to shed more contracts though in order to acquire Brewer.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Hyperion said:


> Minnesota had no one to blame but themselves for this mess. They refused to give love the max because Rubio. So now they have to deal him instead of having one more year on his contract.
> 
> *Note they are trying to leverage Cleveland out of every player for love when all the Cavs have to do is be patient and wait for love to leave in a year and they get him for free (without giving up anything other than money which in any other situation is the exact opposite of free)*


I've been saying that for a while. To me, it makes no sense to give up the moon for Love when you can just wait and hopefully sign him in the offseason. If he wants to win, he'll max out in Cleveland with Lebron, Wiggins and Kyrie.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Don't get why people are saying that dealing for Love is a bad deal. Yes, it's questionable why they are dealing for him when they could possibly wait, but that's a huge assumption that he's going to actually go to Cleveland when he's apparently favoring golden state. You guys are also operating under the assumption that Wiggins will be a superstar in the future. That isn't a guarantee at all. He has potential, but he is in no way a guaranteed thing. And neither is Bennett. I'm not saying they won't be great. But they might not be, you never know. 

With love, it is a guarantee that he will play well under the Cavs because his playing style fits what they are going to be doing perfectly. 

I do agree that the Cavs should wait, but it isn't a bad idea by any means to be trying to get yourself championship right now. I'm really excited about this, even though part of me still doesn't believe it will happen. If it does though, I will be the happiest basketball fan in the world. My three favorite players on the same team...


----------



## ChrisWoj

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Don't get why people are saying that dealing for Love is a bad deal. Yes, it's questionable why they are dealing for him when they could possibly wait, but that's a huge assumption that he's going to actually go to Cleveland when he's apparently favoring golden state. You guys are also operating under the assumption that Wiggins will be a superstar in the future. That isn't a guarantee at all. He has potential, but he is in no way a guaranteed thing. And neither is Bennett. I'm not saying they won't be great. But they might not be, you never know.
> 
> With love, it is a guarantee that he will play well under the Cavs because his playing style fits what they are going to be doing perfectly.
> 
> I do agree that the Cavs should wait, but it isn't a bad idea by any means to be trying to get yourself championship right now. I'm really excited about this, even though part of me still doesn't believe it will happen. If it does though, I will be the happiest basketball fan in the world. My three favorite players on the same team...


Frankly - I'm of the un-provable opinion that if David Wiggins stays in Cleveland he will be an absolute superstar. Under the tutelage of Lebron James I can see a player with his work ethic, athletic talent, defensive acumen, and smooth scoring ability becoming an absolute perennial all star and MVP candidate...... however if he leaves Cleveland I don't believe he achieves this. At least not in Minnesota, a place that has a reputation for failing to develop players and was initially wasting Kevin Love until he forced them to give him minutes with his play. 

So in short: he stays in CLE? Superstar. He goes to MIN? Multi-time All Star.


----------



## Diable

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



ChrisWoj said:


> Frankly - I'm of the un-provable opinion that if David Wiggins stays in Cleveland he will be an absolute superstar. Under the tutelage of Lebron James I can see a player with his work ethic, athletic talent, defensive acumen, and smooth scoring ability becoming an absolute perennial all star and MVP candidate...... however if he leaves Cleveland I don't believe he achieves this. At least not in Minnesota, a place that has a reputation for failing to develop players and was initially wasting Kevin Love until he forced them to give him minutes with his play.
> 
> So in short: he stays in CLE? Superstar. He goes to MIN? Multi-time All Star.


David Wiggins is an 81 year old English Philosopher, Lebron James ain't teaching him shit.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Diable said:


> David Wiggins is an 81 year old English Philosopher, Lebron James ain't teaching him shit.


Yea... I saw that and thought "Well, I don't know what's going on in this thread anymore."


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> I've been saying that for a while. To me, it makes no sense to give up the moon for Love when you can just wait and hopefully sign him in the offseason. If he wants to win, he'll max out in Cleveland with Lebron, Wiggins and Kyrie.


Hopefully Love would really stick it to Minny and not even do a sign and trade.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/496018420371292161
Delay or awkward?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/496018420371292161
> Delay or awkward?


That interview was just weird in so many ways. The questions the guy was asking were facepalm worthy.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> According to the trade machine, Cleveland is the team that needs to shed more contracts though in order to acquire Brewer.


Side Show Bob is an expiring 9.8m on the books


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I've gone back and forth on whether I think Cleveland should trade Wiggins for Love (and I don't think they get Love without him) like a dozen times. I still don't know how I feel.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Love is a guy where if they don't win next year and he hasn't played up to expectations, he'll leave because hes a mentally fragile bitch and won't want to shoulder any blame. I'm not trading Wiggins and Bennett for that.

The last few years hes just phoned it in far too much and then blamed his team.


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Love is a guy where if they don't win next year and he hasn't played up to expectations, he'll leave because hes a mentally fragile bitch and won't want to shoulder any blame.


See, I highly doubt that. Playing sidekick to Lebron is probably the cushiest gig he'll be able to find and he'd get a bit more money per year and a fifth season on his contract to boot. I mean, where else is he going to go where he'll be on an instant contender and have less responsibility than being 2a/2b with Kyrie as Lebron's supporting cast? I think there's next to zero chance Love bolts town in Cleveland under any scenario so long as Lebron's staying.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Bogg said:


> See, I highly doubt that. Playing sidekick to Lebron is probably the cushiest gig he'll be able to find and he'd get a bit more money per year and a fifth season on his contract to boot. I mean, where else is he going to go where he'll be on an instant contender and have less responsibility than being 2a/2b with Kyrie as Lebron's supporting cast? I think there's next to zero chance Love bolts town in Cleveland under any scenario so long as Lebron's staying.


Meh, we'll see. He may also not enjoy getting the Chris Bosh treatment playing next to Lebron as well. His stats are going to take a pretty big kick in the ass going from having Rubio and Martin as your supporting cast to Lebron and Kyrie. When you upgrade the talent like that your stats are going to take a hit. 

After complaining for multiple seasons about not making the playoffs and taking 0 responsibility himself, I view Love as having a loser mentality.


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Meh, we'll see. He may also not enjoy getting the Chris Bosh treatment playing next to Lebron as well. His stats are going to take a pretty big kick in the ass going from having Rubio and Martin as your supporting cast to Lebron and Kyrie. When you upgrade the talent like that your stats are going to take a hit.
> 
> After complaining for multiple seasons about not making the playoffs and taking 0 responsibility himself, I view Love as having a loser mentality.


Well.....what do you define "loser mentality" as? If he's a guy that wants to win games without actually being responsible for the team, standing in the corner and shooting threes off of Lebron and Irving seems _perfect_ for a theoretical player like that. If you think he's more concerned about padding his stats than winning games, then why wouldn't he just stay in Minnesota one more year and then go sign with his choice of the Lakers or Knicks? 

As an aside, the first bit about not taking responsibility for the team has me thinking that forcing Hibbert to play a season without Paul George might be the best thing for him long-term. The last few years Hibbert's seemed _way_ too content to show up for the high-profile games (particularly against Miami) and otherwise float in and out whenever he wants. A full season of "We're running every other possession through you, so buck up and get to work on those post moves" could be what gets him out of the mindset of no-showing because you either don't particularly feel like playing or because you're sad for some reason.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Bogg said:


> Well.....what do you define "loser mentality" as? If he's a guy that wants to win games without actually being responsible for the team, standing in the corner and shooting threes off of Lebron and Irving seems _perfect_ for a theoretical player like that. If you think he's more concerned about padding his stats than winning games, then why wouldn't he just stay in Minnesota one more year and then go sign with his choice of the Lakers or Knicks?
> 
> As an aside, the first bit about not taking responsibility for the team has me thinking that forcing Hibbert to play a season without Paul George might be the best thing for him long-term. The last few years Hibbert's seemed _way_ too content to show up for the high-profile games (particularly against Miami) and otherwise float in and out whenever he wants. A full season of "We're running every other possession through you, so buck up and get to work on those post moves" could be what gets him out of the mindset of no-showing because you either don't particularly feel like playing or because you're sad for some reason.


I'm hoping Hibbert has a big year without George being the number 1 guy and Lance freezing him out every time he touches the ball. Problem is hes such a mentally fragile guy that when his shots off hes pretty much useless. Hes either one of the most dominant offensive big men in the post when his shot is falling, or hes throwing up hook shots that clang in and out and finishing 3 for 10 with 2 rebounds. 

I think he'll have monster games, I think he'll have games where doctordrizzay comes in and points out that he got 4 points on 12 shots. Hes the epitome of inconsistent. I do think he'll average a double double for the first time in his career though. 

As far as Love, I see him as a smarter Dwight Howard. Dwight could have had something good in LA but he complained about not getting enough shots. Hes perfectly fine with playing with Harden and being able to blame how tough the West is while hes out there padding stats and seldomly trying on defense anymore. 
I see Love the same way. Wanting to go somewhere and be the alpha dog. Make the playoffs and that's good enough. Is he ok with going to Cleveland and having his stats fall off and the reporters pushing past him to go talk to Lebron after a big game? Not from what I've seen from the guy mentally. He wants to be "the guy" but bear none of the responsibility.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

To me, a loser mentality is when someone blames external forces for all of their failures. A real life example is that friend everyone has who keeps taking about how every single boss was out to get them or their teachers hate them. 

Love blames his bad team for not making the playoffs, but he's not wrong. The wolves have done everything wrong in these last 8 or so drafts. There is some merit to his claims that his teammates stink because they most assuredly do, but he signed on the dotted line.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Hyperion said:


> To me, a loser mentality is when someone blames external forces for all of their failures. A real life example is that friend everyone has who keeps taking about how every single boss was out to get them or their teachers hate them.
> 
> Love blames his bad team for not making the playoffs, but he's not wrong. The wolves have done everything wrong in these last 8 or so drafts. There is some merit to his claims that his teammates stink because they most assuredly do, but he signed on the dotted line.


Ricky Rubio was a top 10 (even top 5 to some) point guard a few years ago. Kevin Martin is a solid scoring guard. Pekovic a good offensive center. 

If Kevin Love cared about winning so much, maybe he'd try on defense. 

I'm not defending the Wolves, but if you're a top 5 player, arguably to some top 3, you can at least lead your team to the playoffs once in your career.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Hyperion said:


> The wolves have done everything wrong in these last 8 or so drafts.


I will never forgive them for taking Jonny Flynn over Steph Curry in 2009. I was literally screaming at my TV set when it happened. Watching a Rubio/Curry backcourt grow together would have been one of the 2 or 3 most exciting basketball storylines of the last 5 years.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> If Kevin Love cared about winning so much, maybe he'd try on defense.
> 
> I'm not defending the Wolves, but if you're a top 5 player, arguably to some top 3, you can at least lead your team to the playoffs once in your career.


This is my feeling about him, when you pretty much take every play off defensively winning obviously isn't your top priority.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



E.H. Munro said:


> This is my feeling about him, when you pretty much take every play off defensively winning obviously isn't your top priority.


He only takes off _*most*_ of every play. He values defensive rebounding very highly.


----------



## WildThing99

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Wiggins will be much better than Love in the future, but LeBron is in win now mode. He has to starting winning from here on out if he wants to be considered better than Kobe.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Ricky Rubio was a top 10 (even top 5 to some) point guard a few years ago. Kevin Martin is a solid scoring guard. Pekovic a good offensive center.
> 
> If Kevin Love cared about winning so much, maybe he'd try on defense.
> 
> I'm not defending the Wolves, but if you're a top 5 player, arguably to some top 3, you can at least lead your team to the playoffs once in your career.


Yes. KG pulled much crappier teams to the playoffs. However Rubio has not been the same Rubio who was drafted. Martin was good ten years ago but not now. Love isn't the two way monster KG was.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



e-monk said:


> Side Show Bob is an expiring 9.8m on the books


He's not going anywhere, he's LeBron's guy. Plus they can't afford to sacrifice any depth in their front court, it's going to be thin if they trade for Love and don't get anyone else in return.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Hyperion said:


> Yes. KG pulled much crappier teams to the playoffs. However Rubio has not been the same Rubio who was drafted. Martin was good ten years ago but not now. Love isn't the two way monster KG was.


Kevin Martin is still a solid scoring guard. Lets not give Love too many excuses here. Hes the main person to blame for the Wolves not making the playoffs.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Hyperion said:


> Yes. KG pulled much crappier teams to the playoffs. However Rubio has not been the same Rubio who was drafted. Martin was good ten years ago but not now. Love isn't the two way monster KG was.


Meh, I don't think making the playoffs is too much of an accomplishment if you don't get out of the first round. KG had 7 straight first round exits, not exactly bragging rights. KG and KL's supporting casts were never that great (excluding KG's year in the WCF and his Boston teams) but KG's defensive abilities and his overall passion/intensity is the difference between him and KL.


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> Meh, I don't think making the playoffs is too much of an accomplishment if you don't get out of the first round. KG had 7 straight first round exits, not exactly bragging rights.


Kobe's never been out of the first round without an all-star center, he's just had the good fortune to play with _four_ of them at different points. Doing anything more than simply making the playoffs without a good bit of help, especially in a strong conference, is _extremely_ hard. That being said, the Wolves actually aren't that bad of a team. Like R-star said, they have some decent talent.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Bogg said:


> Kobe's never been out of the first round without an all-star center, he's just had the good fortune to play with _four_ of them at different points. Doing anything more than simply making the playoffs without a good bit of help, especially in a strong conference, is _extremely_ hard. That being said, the Wolves actually aren't that bad of a team. Like R-star said, they have some decent talent.


I would say this past season's TWolves were far and away the best Love has played with thus far. With that said, he doesn't play defense and when your leader doesn't play defense, how do you expect the rest of the team to give it their all on that end of the floor? I think teaming with LeBron would be the kick in the ass that he needs but I just feel like it's going to be Chris Bosh all over again where you're paying a guy max money to be the third option. I understand the formula can work and that Love has age on his side, but it's still to me not worth the risk of sacrificing Wiggins + depth. 

I too have gone back and forth on whether they should make the trade or not. I've read more about Brendan Haywood's contract and the 15/16 value is worth $10.5 million and they can trade for up to $5 million more, so they can dump him for someone with a $15.5 million contract in return. So I say ride it out this year and go for a sign-and-trade for Love next offseason.

http://www.hoopsrumors.com/2014/07/brendan-haywoods-contract.html



> Haywood will almost certainly be waived before next August and never receive that $10.5MM. Still, after next year’s July moratorium, that salary would still count toward the league’s salary matching requirements if the Cavs were to trade him. Cleveland could acquire a player making as much as $5MM more than Haywood’s non-guaranteed 2015/16 salary, and the team that gives up such a player could waive Haywood and gain a chunk of cap space equal to that approximately $10.5MM salary. Therein lies the value of Haywood.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Love is the perfect compimentary superstar, but a pretty underwhelming lead superstar. I've made this point several times, but he isn't a guy you can build either your offense or your defense around. How many other top 10-15 players can you say that about? Not many. He is kind of like Shawn Marion in his prime to me. Great numbers with inflated rebounding, but would be best suited playing off of somebody else. Love looked really good playing off of other stars in the olympics.

Love's skillset from my perspective is a perfect compliment to LeBron. He can crossmatch SF/PF matchups if Love is getting schooled. Love is a great outlet passer which will fit with LeBron/Irving. While Love is not a good defender, he can finish strong defensive possessions by a LeBron anchored defense with his strong rebounding abilities. And of course the spacing he creates with his sharpshooting three point range. Spacing is crucial for any LeBron-led team.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I can't imagine Love being less than an 18/13 type player in Cleveland, which would be pretty good as a 3rd option. He'll be Bosh with a better shot and range, and better rebounding.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I can't imagine Love being less than an 18/13 type player in Cleveland, which would be pretty good as a 3rd option. He'll be Bosh with a better shot and range, and better rebounding.


And much worse defense.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Kevin Martin is still a solid scoring guard. Lets not give Love too many excuses here. Hes the main person to blame for the Wolves not making the playoffs.


Just trying to keep perspective here. He's not a terrible player. He's definitely a top big man in the league. 


I can see the merits in the trade Wiggins camp too. Wiggins did have an underwhelming freshman year and I wouldn't have drafted him first because of it, same with Parker. The way they were bounced from the tournament highlighted every concern gms had. The Cavs are worried that in a few months they will have completely whiffed in two number one picks in a row. That will be an automatic firing but trading them for a bona fide all star top scoring and top rebounding big man is defensible and therefore job security.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Hyperion said:


> Just trying to keep perspective here. He's not a terrible player. He's definitely a top big man in the league.
> 
> 
> I can see the merits in the trade Wiggins camp too. Wiggins did have an underwhelming freshman year and I wouldn't have drafted him first because of it, same with Parker. The way they were bounced from the tournament highlighted every concern gms had. The Cavs are worried that in a few months they will have completely whiffed in two number one picks in a row. That will be an automatic firing but trading them for a bona fide all star top scoring and top rebounding big man is defensible and therefore job security.


If the Cavs didn't have Lebron, I'd agree. With Lebron and Kyrie ahead of him as scoring options, with perhaps Waiters as well, Wiggins would be set up to have the cushiest first year a first overall pick has had in recent memory. If he averaged 13ppg no one would bat an eyelash because hes option 3 or 4 on the team.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

truthfully I think LeBron is being very shortsighted allowing wiggins to be involved in the deal.

in essence that's his pippen , that's the guy who will take the hard defensive assignments allowing him to rest his legs and extend his career and his prime and he'll grow as an offensive player ... he could be where kawhi leonard is by the end of the season , a guy who can hit a corner 3 , hit the boards, run the floor and be a standout defender.

instead with love he'll have to play even more defense and swing to the 4 on occasion to cover for love wiggins a future 1st and bennet are a lot to give up for a 17 and 11 3rd option who plays subpar defense.

I simply don't agree with the decision , if they are in such a win now mode they can get david lee and it would cost them pennies on the dollar in truth I would curry instead of irving anyway I think that may a direction they want to go in


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> If the Cavs didn't have Lebron, I'd agree. With Lebron and Kyrie ahead of him as scoring options, with perhaps Waiters as well, Wiggins would be set up to have the cushiest first year a first overall pick has had in recent memory. If he averaged 13ppg no one would bat an eyelash because hes option 3 or 4 on the team.


ABSOLUTELY. The only thing Wiggins would have to do is defend the best perimeter player on the other team, stay out of foul trouble, and finish on the occasional fast break opportunity. If he ever hit a jump shot, it would be bonus. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Tristan Thompson outscored Wiggins as well this season if they stay the course.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> ABSOLUTELY. The only thing Wiggins would have to do is defend the best perimeter player on the other team, stay out of foul trouble, and finish on the occasional fast break opportunity. If he ever hit a jump shot, it would be bonus. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Tristan Thompson outscored Wiggins as well this season if they stay the course.


Agreed. Perfect situation. That could be a hell of a defense as well. 

And imagine if they flip Waiters and AV for a defensive anchor? I like that team moving forward rather than gutting the squad to make Miami #2 and hope Love and Irving fit in well with Lebron.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Agreed. Perfect situation. That could be a hell of a defense as well.
> 
> And imagine if they flip Waiters and AV for a defensive anchor? I like that team moving forward rather than gutting the squad to make Miami #2 and hope Love and Irving fit in well with Lebron.


That team could also use a floor spacer... a poor man's Love. A Channing Frye/Spencer Hawes type could have helped this team. I guess they could still get Andray Blatche for next-to-nothing. They might want to go ahead and take that flier one was or another.


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Agreed. Perfect situation. That could be a hell of a defense as well.
> 
> And imagine if they flip Waiters and AV for a defensive anchor? I like that team moving forward rather than gutting the squad to make Miami #2 and hope Love and Irving fit in well with Lebron.


I feel like Waiters, Bennett, and maybe a pick or two is a really good package for Greg Monroe. Maybe he's not the rim protector that people have in mind, but he's a pretty good all-around center.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Bogg said:


> I feel like Waiters, Bennett, and maybe a pick or two is a really good package for Greg Monroe. Maybe he's not the rim protector that people have in mind, but he's a pretty good all-around center.


I'd hate it as a Pacers fan, but I could see them swindling Bird into a Waiters and AV for Hibbert and first rounder deal. 

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=oz8eh7z

Works on trade machine.

Wiggins on the perimeter, Lebron as a help defender and Roy Hibbert as your anchor? Absolutely ridiculous if Wiggins pans out.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Bogg said:


> I feel like Waiters, Bennett, and maybe a pick or two is a really good package for Greg Monroe. Maybe he's not the rim protector that people have in mind, but he's a pretty good all-around center.


That's a very interesting idea. I feel like SVG would have to STRONGLY consider that package. Also, Thompson/Monroe is a frontcourt duo I could actually see coexisting pretty well.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Wiggins on the perimeter, Lebron as a help defender and Roy Hibbert as your anchor? Absolutely ridiculous if Wiggins pans out.


Thompson is no slouch defensively himself. That team could be very hard to score against. Lebron would basically be free to roam. DANGEROUS


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I would also assume Larry Sanders is still very attainable from the Bucks. The Cavs have more viable options than just Love.


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> I would also assume Larry Sanders is still very attainable from the Bucks. The Cavs have more viable options than just Love.


I actually doubt that. Kidd tried to trade for him last season and he makes a whole bunch of sense if Kidd's going to do something like what he did last year with his lineups. I expect Milwaukee to hold onto Sanders for at least a year or two more now.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> I'd hate it as a Pacers fan, but I could see them swindling Bird into a Waiters and AV for Hibbert and first rounder deal.
> 
> http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=oz8eh7z
> 
> Works on trade machine.


AV's a Bronnie guy, so he's staying, but Waiters, Bennet, and one of the non-guaranteed deals work. If you could get the Memphis and/or Miami picks tossed in it might work out pretty well, because I think Waiters can replace a lot of what Stephenson brought to the table. And next year's draft is big man heavy, so the Pacers would be able to rebuild their front line with two picks. 

Give the Pacers Willie Cauley-Stein to play C and someone like Chris Walker or Bobby Portis (I think he's going to surprise a lot of people this year and end up in the 10-16 range) at the PF spot to go along with Waiters and George on the wings and the Pacers might have a pretty decent core going forward.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



E.H. Munro said:


> AV's a Bronnie guy, so he's staying, but Waiters, Bennet, and one of the non-guaranteed deals work. If you could get the Memphis and/or Miami picks tossed in it might work out pretty well, because I think Waiters can replace a lot of what Stephenson brought to the table. And next year's draft is big man heavy, so the Pacers would be able to rebuild their front line with two picks.
> 
> Give the Pacers Willie Cauley-Stein to play C and someone like Chris Walker or Bobby Portis (I think he's going to surprise a lot of people this year and end up in the 10-16 range) at the PF spot to go along with Waiters and George on the wings and the Pacers might have a pretty decent core going forward.


Plus they get the added advantage of losing more this year.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I'm thinking Cleveland feels pressure to add Love this year so they can compete with Chicago. I think Cleveland and Chicago are the clear favorites in the East now that Indiana is out of the picture. Derrick Rose looks to be the Rose of old, so if he stays healthy, Chicago has a good chance to win the ECF. Chicago from starter to bench has an advantage at PG/SG. Cleveland gets the nod at SF cause of LeBron. Chicago also has more depth at PF/C. I don't see a clear cut winner in a 7 game series between these two teams, but the odds would probably favor Chicago. I guess they would feel Kevin Love puts them over the top.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> I'm thinking Cleveland feels pressure to add Love this year so they can compete with Chicago. I think Cleveland and Chicago are the clear favorites in the East now that Indiana is out of the picture. Derrick Rose looks to be the Rose of old, so if he stays healthy, Chicago has a good chance to win the ECF. Chicago from starter to bench has an advantage at PG/SG. Cleveland gets the nod at SF cause of LeBron. Chicago also has more depth at PF/C. I don't see a clear cut winner in a 7 game series between these two teams, but the odds would probably favor Chicago. I guess they would feel Kevin Love puts them over the top.


At this point I'd gladly have Irving on my team over Rose. I'll start buying into some of this Rose hype when hes doing more than playing slack ass scrimmage games.

If people are watching his dunks and thinking hes back, the guy was throwing dunk comp worthy throw downs 2 years ago in playoff warmups, where he sat on the bench and refused to play once the game actually started.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> And much worse defense.


Let's not make Bosh out to be Bill Russell. He is average at best.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Let's not make Bosh out to be Bill Russell. He is average at best.


And Love is one of the worst in the league, making Bosh "much better" defensively.


----------



## kbdullah

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> The Cavs have more viable options than just Love.


See this I agree with. I think they should trade Wiggins, but it doesn't have to be for Love. With the assets Cleveland has they can be in the driver's seat and don't have to simply settle for what's already available. In fact, yall mentioned Detroit earlier...I'd offer Wiggins for Drummond...Pistons are in a frontcourt bind and can't move Smith. Smith/Monroe w/ Wiggins on the wing could actually work even though Drummond is the best of the three.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



kbdullah said:


> See this I agree with. I think they should trade Wiggins, but it doesn't have to be for Love. With the assets Cleveland has they can be in the driver's seat and don't have to simply settle for what's already available. In fact, yall mentioned Detroit earlier...I'd offer Wiggins for Drummond...Pistons are in a frontcourt bind and can't move Smith. Smith/Monroe w/ Wiggins on the wing could actually work even though Drummond is the best of the three.


Why do they even have to trade Wiggins though?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> And Love is one of the worst in the league, making Bosh "much better" defensively.


Well if we're in love with the word _much_ than I'll amend my original statement to emphasize how much better Love is offensively. 



> I can't imagine Love being less than an 18/13 type player in Cleveland, which would be pretty good as a 3rd option. He'll be Bosh with a _much_ better shot and _much_ better range, and _much_ better rebounding.


To which your response is fitting. 



R-Star said:


> And much worse defense.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Well if we're in love with the word _much_ than I'll amend my original statement to emphasize how much better Love is offensively.
> 
> 
> 
> To which your response is fitting.


What are we even doing here? 

What are you, like 8?


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Also, I'm not sure how Love has "much more" range to Bosh. Bosh has shown to be able to knock down the 3 quite well for a big. Is Love shooting from half court? The majority of Bosh's game has become 3 point and mid range shooting.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> What are we even doing here?
> 
> What are you, like 8?


I'm glad you realized it was silly. Love is better than Bosh, and a (much) better fit. You trying to smuggle the word "much" into Bosh's defensive advantage doesn't change that.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> At this point I'd gladly have Irving on my team over Rose. I'll start buying into some of this Rose hype when hes doing more than playing slack ass scrimmage games.
> 
> If people are watching his dunks and thinking hes back, the guy was throwing dunk comp worthy throw downs 2 years ago in playoff warmups, where he sat on the bench and refused to play once the game actually started.


It's not the dunks per say, it's how fast he got up and down the court with like 3 dribbles. Whether it was just a scrimmage or not, he looked explosive and extremely quick just like he did before the injuries, something he did not show last year in the short amount of time he played.

I hope for the Cavs' sake that Kyrie really starts to play hard on the defensive end this year because Rose will absolutely destroy him if not. This is another reason to keep Wiggins though. I'm David Blatt and I can be like "hmmmm am I going to throw Kyrie at Rose today? Nah how about Wiggins? Oh he's in foul trouble? I'll have LeBron shut him down then". I've said it multiple times that having Wiggins allows LeBron to dominate more since he doesn't have to guard the other wing's best player. That will make a HUGE difference.


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

At this point Derrick Rose has hit the same point with me that Andrew Bynum did back sometime around '09 or '10. No matter how good he might look over the last _X_ number of games, I'm always going to be leery of those knees. Rose could play 70 games and start in the all-star game this coming year and I'd still be scared of relying on him long-term.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I'm glad you realized it was silly. Love is better than Bosh, and a (much) better fit. You trying to smuggle the word "much" into Bosh's defensive advantage doesn't change that.


What the hell are you talking about? Chris Bosh is _worlds_ better defensively than Love. Like its not even close. At all. 

I called him a "much worse" defender and you freaked out saying he wasn't Bill Russell and that no one was allowed to use the word "much" anymore.

So no, the only thing silly here is you acting like no one is allowed to talk about defense when discussing Kevin Love. 

Chris Bosh is a DPOY candidate when compared in a vacuum with Kevin Love. 

By the way, Boshs stats in his last year in Toronto? 24 and 11 on 51.8% shooting all while actually playing defense. 

Love this year? 26 and 12.5 on 45.7% shooting. 

I'm sorry you decided to overblow the difference between the two, but that's your issue, not mine.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Bogg said:


> At this point Derrick Rose has hit the same point with me that Andrew Bynum did back sometime around '09 or '10. No matter how good he might look over the last _X_ number of games, I'm always going to be leery of those knees. Rose could play 70 games and start in the all-star game this coming year and I'd still be scared of relying on him long-term.


Nah, you can't compare big man knees vs. guard knees. It's not like he's Brandon Roy. I'd much rather point in the direction of Russell Westbrook than Andrew Bynum or Brandon Roy. ACL tears are not nearly as big of a deal to recover from anymore and meniscus repairs aren't as severe as an ACL tear. I think he will be just fine, it's likely only going to be mental for him at this point.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

@R-Star, Do you think Love has a bigger advantage on offense than Bosh does on defense? 

If not, do you think Chris Bosh is a better player? Or do you just think offense in general is more valuable than defense?


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> Nah, you can't compare big man knees vs. guard knees. It's not like he's Brandon Roy. I'd much rather point in the direction of Russell Westbrook than Andrew Bynum or Brandon Roy. ACL tears are not nearly as big of a deal to recover from anymore and meniscus repairs aren't as severe as an ACL tear. I think he will be just fine, it's likely only going to be mental for him at this point.


49 games. The amount of games Rose has played in the last 3 seasons. 
86 games. The amount of games Bynum has played in the last 3 seasons. 

Rose has had 2 major knee injuries over the past 3 years and plays an extremely athletic slash to the basket style of game. 

I have 0 confidence that he will return to the player he once was. Looking great playing with friends is one thing, playing against actual competition is another. 

Hopefully I'm wrong, but I highly doubt it.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Sir Patchwork said:


> @R-Star, Do you think Love has a bigger advantage on offense than Bosh does on defense?
> 
> If not, do you think Chris Bosh is a better player? Or do you just think offense in general is more valuable than defense?


I think offense and defense are equally valuable. 

Do I think Bosh is a better player? No. Of course not. That's never been in the discussion. Is he a much better defender tough? Clearly.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> I think offense and defense are equally valuable.
> 
> Do I think Bosh is a better player? No. Of course not. That's never been in the discussion. Is he a much better defender tough? Clearly.


So if: 
1. Love is a better overall player than Bosh
2. Offense and defense are equal 
3. Bosh is "world's better" defensively

It would have to follow that:

4. Love is "world's better" than Bosh offensively and then some. 

Agreed?


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> 49 games. The amount of games Rose has played in the last 3 seasons.
> 86 games. The amount of games Bynum has played in the last 3 seasons.
> 
> Rose has had 2 major knee injuries over the past 3 years and plays an extremely athletic slash to the basket style of game.
> 
> I have 0 confidence that he will return to the player he once was. Looking great playing with friends is one thing, playing against actual competition is another.
> 
> Hopefully I'm wrong, but I highly doubt it.


Again I will point to Westbrook. His meniscus surgery put him out for 6 months. Sure it was the offseason but he missed the first couple games of the season, so between surgery time and when he first played again, it was 6 months which is about the length of the NBA regular season. And he looks just fine. The meniscus injury isn't career altering.

Like I stated before, the ACL tear doesn't alter careers like it used to either. Look at NFL players like Adrian Peterson, Jamal Charles, Jeremy Maclin, Robert Griffin (don't be fooled by his restrictions last year, the dude is still an athletic freak). Jamal Crawford tore his ACL awhile back, he returned just fine. I think Rose really had a terrible string of bad luck and hopefully it's behind him now. While it would be easy to label him as injury prone now, I'm sticking with he had bad luck and I hope I'm right.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> Again I will point to Westbrook. His meniscus surgery put him out for 6 months. Sure it was the offseason but he missed the first couple games of the season, so between surgery time and when he first played again, it was 6 months which is about the length of the NBA regular season. And he looks just fine. The meniscus injury isn't career altering.
> 
> Like I stated before, the ACL tear doesn't alter careers like it used to either. Look at NFL players like Adrian Peterson, Jamal Charles, Jeremy Maclin, Robert Griffin (don't be fooled by his restrictions last year, the dude is still an athletic freak). Jamal Crawford tore his ACL awhile back, he returned just fine. I think Rose really had a terrible string of bad luck and hopefully it's behind him now. While it would be easy to label him as injury prone now, I'm sticking with he had bad luck and I hope I'm right.


I have been skeptical about Rose being 100% for the season and i will remain skeptical until at least mid-season


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Sir Patchwork said:


> So if:
> 1. Love is a better overall player than Bosh
> 2. Offense and defense are equal
> 3. Bosh is "world's better" defensively
> 
> It would have to follow that:
> 
> 4. Love is "world's better" than Bosh offensively and then some.
> 
> Agreed?


No. What does that have to do with the original argument anyways? You should go back and read your posts.


----------



## kbdullah

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Why do they even have to trade Wiggins though?


I think the Cavaliers need to win right away and I don't think Wiggins is an impact player right away. And by themselves Waiters and Bennett won't get anyone excited enough to pull the trigger on a deal to deliver an impact player.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



kbdullah said:


> See this I agree with. I think they should trade Wiggins, but it doesn't have to be for Love. With the assets Cleveland has they can be in the driver's seat and don't have to simply settle for what's already available. In fact, yall mentioned Detroit earlier...I'd offer Wiggins for Drummond...Pistons are in a frontcourt bind and can't move Smith. Smith/Monroe w/ Wiggins on the wing could actually work even though Drummond is the best of the three.


Okay, I think we're going a little too far here. Drummond over Love? Really? Yes, it's a huge upgrade defensively, but we're talking about choosing a clearly superior trader in Love to be a part of a system he fits in perfectly over a guy who doesn't fit into the system at all and isn't needed. I would never in any day of the week choose Drummond over Love no matter how much better he is defensively. That's just stupid.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I'm glad you realized it was silly. Love is better than Bosh, and a (much) better fit. You trying to smuggle the word "much" into Bosh's defensive advantage doesn't change that.


Bosh refusal to play the paint on the offensive ends is what killed Miami chances. Bosh didn't even average 10 rebounds in the 4 year span in Miami. Love is a better overall player IMO than Bosh. 

R-Star trying to imply that Bosh plays defense is laughable. He plays as much defense as Love do. The biggest advantage Love has is his ability to actually rebound and he's a much better shooter than Bosh.


----------



## E.H. Munro

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Let's not make Bosh out to be Bill Russell. He is average at best.


As a C. And only due to the fact that he lacks the size to anchor the post. As a PF he's pretty good. Love is not. Of course, if I'm one of the Cavs' competitors I'm rooting for them to add either and waste LeBron's prime.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> Bosh refusal to play the paint on the offensive ends is what killed Miami chances. Bosh didn't even average 10 rebounds in the 4 year span in Miami. Love is a better overall player IMO than Bosh.
> 
> R-Star trying to imply that Bosh plays defense is laughable. He plays as much defense as Love do. The biggest advantage Love has is his ability to actually rebound and he's a much better shooter than Bosh.


Well, if it isn't former Miami super fan Pablo5. It will be funny to see Pablo as one of Clevelands most avid posters around mid season mark if they have one of the better records in the league. He will of course have made 0 posts in the Spurs forum.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



E.H. Munro said:


> As a C. And only due to the fact that he lacks the size to anchor the post. *As a PF he's pretty good*. Love is not. Of course, if I'm one of the Cavs' competitors I'm rooting for them to add either and waste LeBron's prime.


You must be talking 6 six years ago. He took less shots because he was ineffective on both sides of the floor. Bosh isn't worth what he was/now being paid. 

Size? The guy is 6'11 and has no heart in the paint. He doesn't even try to alter shots unless he's coming weak-side. A grade of C is terrible considering he's being paid like a star.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> At this point I'd gladly have Irving on my team over Rose. I'll start buying into some of this Rose hype when hes doing more than playing slack ass scrimmage games.
> 
> If people are watching his dunks and thinking hes back, the guy was throwing dunk comp worthy throw downs 2 years ago in playoff warmups, where he sat on the bench and refused to play once the game actually started.


I don't knowif you heard, but I heard he added another ten inches to his vertical this last year. He can now jump over 5 ft off one foot! He keeps coming back stronger.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Well, if it isn't former Miami super fan Pablo5. It will be funny to see Pablo as one of Clevelands most avid posters around mid season mark if they have one of the better records in the league. *He will of course have made 0 posts in the Spurs forum*.


Yeah because it's so much activity in there, lol. Let's see how much you post when you're garbage ass Pacers finish be hide the Pistons in the Central.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Hyperion said:


> I don't knowif you heard, but I heard he added another ten inches to his vertical this last year. He can now jump over 5 ft off one foot! He keeps coming back stronger.


I will say that he look much faster during that scrimmage. If he is the old Rose of form, it will be trouble the Cavs and the East


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> Yeah because it's so much activity in there, lol. Let's see how much you post when you're garbage ass Pacers finish be hide the Pistons in the Central.


Knick Killer, Gonzo, Pacer Fan, clownskull, myself and others will continue to post in the Pacers forum because we're actual fans. Not bandwagon chumps like yourself. 


Keep cheering for the winner Pablo.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> No. What does that have to do with the original argument anyways? You should go back and read your posts.


No? If Love is not world's better than Bosh on offense, but Bosh is world's better than Love on defense, then how do you not think Chris Bosh is a better player than Kevin Love? It doesn't add up dude. 

If Bosh is a 10 on defense and Love is a 1 (as you implied with the DPoY comment), then Love would have to be 10 offense to Bosh's 1 for them to be equal as players (assuming offense and defense are equal). Yet somehow Kevin Love is better overall despite being only a little better offensively and far inferior defensively. You must be hiding some secret criteria beyond offense and defense where Love excels to give him the nod as an overall player.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Sir Patchwork said:


> No? If Love is not world's better than Bosh on offense, but Bosh is world's better than Love on defense, then how do you not think Chris Bosh is a better player than Kevin Love? It doesn't add up dude.
> 
> If Bosh is a 10 on defense and Love is a 1 (as you implied with the DPoY comment), then Love would have to be 10 offense to Bosh's 1 for them to be equal as players (assuming offense and defense are equal). Yet somehow Kevin Love is better overall despite being only a little better offensively and far inferior defensively. You must be hiding some secret criteria beyond offense and defense where Love excels to give him the nod as an overall player.


Would you like me to just go back and re-post our whole back and fourth, or would you just like to admit you flipped out when I brought up his defense? 

Love is the best offensive power forward in the league. Bosh is a good offensive player. 
Bosh is an average to slightly above average defender while Love is probably the worst defensive starting 4 in the game. 

You average that out and Love is the better player. 

I'll ask again, what the **** are you even talking about? You're really make an ass out of yourself here.


----------



## e-monk

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> He's not going anywhere, he's LeBron's guy. Plus they can't afford to sacrifice any depth in their front court, it's going to be thin if they trade for Love and don't get anyone else in return.


over the last 4 seasons he's been good for about 40 games a season and hasn't sniffed north of 2000 minutes since 2010 - I wouldn't call that depth to be counted on

if the question at hand is making salaries work his salary is the only moveable chunk of cash of any significance on that roster


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Would you like me to just go back and re-post our whole back and fourth, or would you just like to admit you flipped out when I brought up his defense?


I don't think anyone can read my posts and your posts and think I was the one who flipped out. You've thrown a tantrum the past couple posts. I'm trying to get to you acknowledge the implications of your views. 



R-Star said:


> Love is the best offensive power forward in the league. Bosh is a good offensive player.
> Bosh is an average to slightly above average defender while Love is probably the worst defensive starting 4 in the game.
> 
> You average that out and Love is the better player.


That doesn't average out at all. If you think offense and defense are equal, and Love is the best offensive PF, and worst defensive PF, that would make him an average player according to *your* values, no? If I'm mistaken, please explain and clarify your view. 



R-Star said:


> I'll ask again, what the **** are you even talking about? You're really make an ass out of yourself here.


I'll tell you again. If Bosh is much better than Love defensively, as you claim, but Love is still the better overall player, than it's not difficult to understand that Love would have to be much better on offense. Yet you keep denying this in your insistance on marginalizing Kevin Love.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I don't think anyone can read my posts and your posts and think I was the one who flipped out. You've thrown a tantrum the past couple posts. I'm trying to get to you acknowledge the implications of your views.
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't average out at all. If you think offense and defense are equal, and Love is the best offensive PF, and worst defensive PF, that would make him an average player according to *your* values, no? If I'm mistaken, please explain and clarify your view.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll tell you again. If Bosh is much better than Love defensively, as you claim, but Love is still the better overall player, than it's not difficult to understand that Love would have to be much better on offense. Yet you keep denying this in your insistance on marginalizing Kevin Love.


So you want me to re-quote our initial discussion then? Ok. 



Sir Patchwork said:


> I can't imagine Love being less than an 18/13 type player in Cleveland, which would be pretty good as a 3rd option. He'll be Bosh with a better shot and range, and better rebounding.


To which I replied *"and much worse defensively"*. You got angry and responded with:



Sir Patchwork said:


> Let's not make Bosh out to be Bill Russell. He is average at best.


And then you went off the rails and tried to make it out that I was arguing Bosh is the better player.


Again, you're looking like a ****ing moron here, yet you keep pushing the discussion towards something that was never there.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

And before you try to waste more time, any knowledgeable basketball mind understand that you don't just break everything down as a number. 

It doesn't turn into Love is 10 on offense and 1 on defense so he equals 11 and Bosh is 7 on offense and 5 on defense so his 12 trumps Loves 11. 

You are trying hard to push that and its just...... really ridiculous. I guess a guy who is average on both offense and defense is one of the better players in the league.

No. Again, breaking shit down to a number and saying "Well if defense is as important as offense....." is extremely stupid.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Sorry if I offended you, sorry if I "flipped out" and I'm sorry for anything else I said that you didn't like. 

Now clarify your position.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Sorry if I offended you, sorry if I "flipped out" and I'm sorry for anything else I said that you didn't like.
> 
> Now clarify your position.


Kevin Love is a bad defender?

That has been my position the entire time. 


You didn't offend me though buddy, so don't worry about it. I just didn't want you to continue to flail around like a spaz because you don't think its fair to talk about Kevin's absolute lack of defense.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

So can a person believe that Chris Paul is inferior to Russell Westbrook on both ends, but still believe Chris Paul is a better overall player? Since its not all about like rankings and numbers and stuff?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Wait, saying "Let's not make Bosh into Bill Russell" was my _ angry_ post? Good grief.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> Bosh refusal to play the paint on the offensive ends is what killed Miami chances. Bosh didn't even average 10 rebounds in the 4 year span in Miami. Love is a better overall player IMO than Bosh.
> 
> R-Star trying to imply that Bosh plays defense is laughable. He plays as much defense as Love do. The biggest advantage Love has is his ability to actually rebound and he's a much better shooter than Bosh.


The fact you're trying to say that Bosh plays as much defense as Love does tell me you haven't watched any Miami Heat basketball games. At all. His improvement defensively was one of the main stories regarding Bosh during his time so far with Miami. He's not a top five defender or anything, but he has definitely developed into a capable rim defender and anyone who's watched a few Heat games knows this. In other words, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Unless you spend your time during the Heat games beating it to every camera shot of Lebron's sweaty face, you don't watch any Heat games at all.

In regards to the pointless bitching R-Star is continuing to do in regards to Patch, Patch is basically saying that your claim in regards to Love being a better overall player than Bosh doesn't make a lot of sense when you're trying to make Bosh sound like a much better defender than Love to the point where you're trying your hardest to discredit the things that Love does better. I'm not saying you think Bosh is better, I know you're not that stupid. But give Love some credit for the things he does well.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Wait, saying "Let's not make Bosh into Bill Russell" was my _ angry_ post? Good grief.


Making a jackass generalization to me saying Bosh was better defensively and then going on to turn it into me saying Bosh is the better player?

Yea, it was a tad on the ridiculous side.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Sir Patchwork said:


> So can a person believe that Chris Paul is inferior to Russell Westbrook on both ends, but still believe Chris Paul is a better overall player? Since its not all about like rankings and numbers and stuff?


Yes.

In his prime Ron Artest should have been an MVP candidate, but he was a nut job so there were plenty of inferior players that were better than him based purely on that.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Supposedly the Wiggins for Love deal has already been agreed and shook upon and they're just waiting for the date Wiggy can be traded.

What a shame. I feel bad for Andrew.


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I don't see this being a great move for the Cavs personally. I don't think K-Love is that next level star that gives you the punch LeBron needs. Perhaps Irving will go to another level and Love will be the Bosh of the group. I just don't see why you give up Wiggins for Love like that. Seems bizarre to me.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Hibachi! said:


> I don't see this being a great move for the Cavs personally. I don't think K-Love is that next level star that gives you the punch LeBron needs. Perhaps Irving will go to another level and Love will be the Bosh of the group. I just don't see why you give up Wiggins for Love like that. Seems bizarre to me.


Supposedly Wiggins, Bennett and a first. It's ridiculous.


This is going to haunt basketball fans like when TMac left Toronto.


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Supposedly Wiggins, Bennett and a first. It's ridiculous.
> 
> 
> This is going to haunt basketball fans like when TMac left Toronto.


If the rumors are true that LeBron has been pushing for all of this it could taint his legacy if it works out poorly. Him being so pushy about this whole thing gave the Wolves the upper hand when they pretty much had no hand to play. It could work out for the Cavs and Wiggins could be all hype.

I just don't understand why the Cavs are giving away so much.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> *Supposedly the Wiggins for Love deal has already been agreed and shook* upon and they're just waiting for the date Wiggy can be traded.
> 
> What a shame. I feel bad for Andrew.


LMAO


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Hibachi! said:


> If the rumors are true that LeBron has been pushing for all of this it could taint his legacy if it works out poorly. Him being so pushy about this whole thing gave the Wolves the upper hand when they pretty much had no hand to play. It could work out for the Cavs and Wiggins could be all hype.
> 
> I just don't understand why the Cavs are giving away *so much.*


So much?

Again, they are giving away a guy who apparently had a underwhelming freshman year in college and COULD be great. COULD. For all we know, he could be a bust. I mean, if he already had his freshman year and it turned out great, then you would have a point. But we have absolutely no idea how good he will really be so it's ridiculous to say right now that this is a bad deal on the Cavs part. No, it really isn't. They're basically giving away a potentially great player and arguably one of the biggest draft busts ever who has shown improvement through SUMMER LEAGUE for one of the best PF's, if not the best PF in all of the NBA and Cory Brewer?

You can say that it would be better to wait to see how Wiggins does, and you know what? I agree. But this is not a bad deal by any means for the Cavaliers, and I don't understand why people keep saying this.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> The fact you're trying to say that Bosh plays as much defense as Love does tell me you haven't watched any Miami Heat basketball games. At all. *His improvement defensively was one of the main stories regarding Bosh during his time so far with Miami. He's not a top five defender or anything, but he has definitely developed into a capable rim defender and anyone who's watched a few Heat games knows this*. In other words, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Unless you spend your time during the Heat games beating it to every camera shot of Lebron's sweaty face, you don't watch any Heat games at all.
> 
> In regards to the pointless bitching R-Star is continuing to do in regards to Patch, Patch is basically saying that your claim in regards to Love being a better overall player than Bosh doesn't make a lot of sense when you're trying to make Bosh sound like a much better defender than Love to the point where you're trying your hardest to discredit the things that Love does better. I'm not saying you think Bosh is better, I know you're not that stupid. But give Love some credit for the things he does well.


Check out the amount of points score against them during the ECF's and NBA Finals from 12-13 and 13-14. Then you'll change your mind. Its sad when the only guy that tried to play defense in the paint only made league minimum.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> LMAO


What's funny friend?

Are you going to bring up how you guaranteed Love would be traded for Wiggins and Waiters?


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Love is the best offensive power forward in the league.


No, just no.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> Check out the amount of points score against them during the ECF's and NBA Finals from 12-13 and 13-14. Then you'll change your mind. Its sad when the only guy that tried to play defense in the paint only made league minimum.


Hopefully there will be shots for Lebron and Love since Irving takes the most shots in the league.

Amare should develope a mid range game.


...... Pablo, you are bar none the dumbest basketball mind I've seen on this site. I'll follow that up by saying you're probably a smart guy in real life. Not that I actually think you are, I just don't want my post to be edited.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



MemphisX said:


> No, just no.


I didn't say most efficient. He's a chucker.


----------



## Tom

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

A stretch 4 who can rebound...Teams should kill for that now days. He is a great piece to a team.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I don't like the trade, but in the short-term the Cavs are going after Marion and I like the addition of him. He can can play some D on the other team's best player at times.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> Check out the amount of points score against them during the ECF's and NBA Finals from 12-13 and 13-14. Then you'll change your mind. Its sad when the only guy that tried to play defense in the paint only made league minimum.


The fact you're blaming that on Bosh when the Spurs were scoring good amounts of points against them off of three pointers is lol worthy.

Wait, how the hell are points scored against an entire team proof that Bosh doesn't play defense anyways? Going by this dumbass logic I could use the amount of points that were scored against the Lakers on a daily basis when Howard was on the team as proof that Howard doesn't play defense.

Hell, going by your logic, Lebron James plays no defense what so ever. And we all know that isn't true.



MemphisX said:


> No, just no.


Name one who's better.

Meanwhile...






Get out of here with the inflated stats bullshit. It may be true but there is no doubt in my mind that Love at this level of play is the best PF in the NBA. This guy is firing bullets into their ****ing heads and they have no clue how to stop him.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> I didn't say most efficient. He's a chucker.


I still have questions on Love based on his career to date:

Is he really a terrible defender?

Is he 'special' offensively or can he be guarded easily and by big 3s playing the 4?

Will his great rebounding translate when he is asked to defend?

Will his rebounding translate in big moments when challenged by longer and more athletic players in crunch time?

I am guessing he is a 18/9 type guy on a good team with better defense than he has shown. Still makes him a pretty good player but nowhere near worth the package Cleveland is possibly giving up.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Name one who's better.


Dirk
Duncan
Griffin
Aldridge

Off the top of my head...


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Hibachi! said:


> I don't see this being a great move for the Cavs personally. *I don't think K-Love is that next level star that gives you the punch LeBron needs*. Perhaps Irving will go to another level and Love will be the Bosh of the group. I just don't see why you give up Wiggins for Love like that. Seems bizarre to me.


What the hell?!?!? So now Lebron "needs" to play with Kevin Durant, or something?
Irving + Lebron + Kevin Love playing in the East is, barring injuries, an NBA Finalist team. Let's not pretend otherwise.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



MemphisX said:


> Dirk
> Duncan
> Griffin
> Aldridge
> 
> Off the top of my head...


Dirk: Yes.
Duncan: No (although I could see an argument being made)
Griffin: This one is hard. But no. 
Aldridge: Lol. 



PauloCatarino said:


> What the hell?!?!? So now Lebron "needs" to play with Kevin Durant, or something?
> Irving + Lebron + Kevin Love playing in the East is, barring injuries, an NBA Finalist team. Let's not pretend otherwise.


It's just the same bullshit a lot of people here have been saying. They clearly don't watch a single game that involves Kevin Love or Lebron for that matter.

I'm going to say this clearly once again. Kevin Love is the PERFECT playing partner for Lebron. He is basically the Kareem to Magic, the Pippen to Jordan, the Stoudemire to Nash, he is the perfect second option superstar player to have play alongside the best player on said team, in this case being Lebron. I don't get how people here aren't understanding this.

If this were any other team, you guys would have a point in regards to this being a bad trade. But there are times where certain players fit in perfectly on a team. Love on the Cavaliers makes them a lot better than you guys are making it out to be. Yes, defensively there will be a lot left desired. But guess what? Things can change. Playing alongside someone like Lebron and playing under someone like Blatt, I'm willing to bet that Love will improve his defense. And so will Irving.


----------



## Tom

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Love is clutch.


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Griffin is a much better offensive player than Love. 

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## kbdullah

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Okay, I think we're going a little too far here. Drummond over Love? Really? Yes, it's a huge upgrade defensively, but we're talking about choosing a clearly superior trader in Love to be a part of a system he fits in perfectly over a guy who doesn't fit into the system at all and isn't needed. I would never in any day of the week choose Drummond over Love no matter how much better he is defensively. That's just stupid.


Not saying he's better. But he's still on his rookie deal so you guys could improve in the frontcourt w/o taking on a max contract in Kevin Love, so you'd still have some semblance of financial flexibility.


----------



## Hibachi!

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



kbdullah said:


> Not saying he's better. But he's still on his rookie deal so you guys could improve in the frontcourt w/o taking on a max contract in Kevin Love, so you'd still have some semblance of financial flexibility.


Bingo


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Dirk: Yes.
> Duncan: No (although I could see an argument being made)
> Griffin: This one is hard. But no.
> Aldridge: Lol.


I picked 4 I know for 100% fact can get buckets during the last 5 minutes of playoff games. 

You are just speculating.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> What's funny friend?
> 
> Are you going to bring up how you guaranteed Love would be traded for Wiggins and Waiters?





R-Star said:


> Hopefully there will be shots for Lebron and Love since Irving takes the most shots in the league.
> 
> Amare should develope a mid range game.
> 
> 
> ...... *Pablo, you are bar none the dumbest basketball mind I've seen on this site. I'll follow that up by saying you're probably a smart guy in real life. Not that I actually think you are, I just don't want my post to be edited*.


Is that why you go out your way not to post a single quote of what I said? I'll just post them myself when Wiggins is dealt late August. You're just proving that you're a sorry Pacer fan that get but hurt about being wrong. 

Just wait and you'll disappear then only to re-surface running your ***** lips about how it was a good deal after all.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



MemphisX said:


> I picked 4 I know for 100% fact can get buckets during the last 5 minutes of playoff games.
> 
> You are just speculating.


Being that every single player you named have made the playoffs should be enough to dead that conversation. Im not saying they're better or not, but it has to be said that the only way he will make the playoffs is that he has to go to a contender.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> *The fact you're blaming that on Bosh when the Spurs were scoring good amounts of points against them off of three pointers is lol worthy.*
> 
> Wait, how the hell are points scored against an entire team proof that Bosh doesn't play defense anyways? Going by this dumbass logic I could use the amount of points that were scored against the Lakers on a daily basis when Howard was on the team as proof that Howard doesn't play defense.
> 
> Hell, going by your logic, Lebron James plays no defense what so ever. And we all know that isn't true.
> 
> 
> 
> Name one who's better.
> 
> Meanwhile...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Get out of here with the inflated stats bullshit. It may be true but there is no doubt in my mind that Love at this level of play is the best PF in the NBA. This guy is firing bullets into their ****ing heads and they have no clue how to stop him.


You post one game that Love went off and you base your entire argument on that? Which playoff game was that again? 

Im guessing you don't think the fact that Bosh being unable to guard his position without having to double his man wouldn't be a reason why the perimeter was so wide open. Just count the many open layups or dunks given up because of Bosh being out of position. 

Look at the area's of concern for Miami during the Pacers and Spurs series in both years and the same glaring stats stood out and then tell me it don't start at Bosh position rather he was at the 4 or 5.


----------



## ChrisWoj

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Yea... I saw that and thought "Well, I don't know what's going on in this thread anymore."


Yeah that's a buddy of mine. Just a mental slip typing quick. You know what I meant.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> It's just the same bullshit a lot of people here have been saying. They clearly don't watch a single game that involves Kevin Love or Lebron for that matter.
> 
> I'm going to say this clearly once again. Kevin Love is the PERFECT playing partner for Lebron. He is basically the Kareem to Magic, the Pippen to Jordan, the Stoudemire to Nash, he is the perfect second option superstar player to have play alongside the best player on said team, in this case being Lebron. I don't get how people here aren't understanding this.
> 
> If this were any other team, you guys would have a point in regards to this being a bad trade. But there are times where certain players fit in perfectly on a team. Love on the Cavaliers makes them a lot better than you guys are making it out to be. Yes, defensively there will be a lot left desired. But guess what? Things can change. Playing alongside someone like Lebron and playing under someone like Blatt, I'm willing to bet that Love will improve his defense. And so will Irving.


I think people are only preemptively (sp?) excusing Lebron James if he doesn't make the Finals this season.

AS IT STANDS, the Cavs are a powerfull team. And yes, it's because Lebron is there. But Kyrie Irving is a damn good player in his own merits, and capable of being a great second-banana type of player. He is also clutch in the 4th. Then you got the freaking #1 draf pick. And no, this is not Bennet (whose selection as #1 left everyone in shock). This is a guy that everyone was appointing as the #1 pick sinve before he played an NCAA game. Then you got Waiters, Thompson and Varejão. A pretty damn good team on paper.

Keep in mind that the East will still be garbage. Indiana goes down, Chicago goes up, Miami isn't a contender anymore. As it stands, the Cavs have to be considered a shoe-in for the ECF.

Add Kevin Love to Lebron/Irving? A bona fide superstar top player in the league? Damn! One can even say that the trio is BETTER (on paper) than the Super Friends when they first got together...


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



MemphisX said:


> I picked 4 I know for 100% fact can get buckets during the last 5 minutes of playoff games.
> 
> You are just speculating.


That's not valid reasoning when you consider the fact that Love has never been in a playoff game before. If anything you're the only one speculating.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> You post one game that Love went off and you base your entire argument on that? Which playoff game was that again?
> 
> *Im guessing you don't think the fact that Bosh being unable to guard his position without having to double his man wouldn't be a reason why the perimeter was so wide open.* Just count the many open layups or dunks given up because of Bosh being out of position.
> 
> Look at the area's of concern for Miami during the Pacers and Spurs series in both years and the same glaring stats stood out and then tell me it don't start at Bosh position rather he was at the 4 or 5.


And this happens how often? Again, you should try watching the games. You clearly don't do that enough.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



kbdullah said:


> Not saying he's better. But he's still on his rookie deal so you guys could improve in the frontcourt w/o taking on a max contract in Kevin Love, so you'd still have some semblance of financial flexibility.


That still ends up being a bad move when you are once again forgetting about the fact that Love is the PERFECT COMPLEMENTARY PLAYER for Lebron James. I know I've said this so many times, but I don't think people understand why it's worth the risk to get someone like Love on this time. Do you have any idea how good a Cavs team can be like that? Just think back to how good Miami was with guys who didn't compliment Lebron. Now think back to the Cavaliers before he left and how good they were despite having a bunch of role players surround Lebron who simply complemented his style. Now to have a Superstar on the same team as him who complements his style? The team is going to be a nightmare for opposing defenses.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> Is that why you go out your way not to post a single quote of what I said? I'll just post them myself when Wiggins is dealt late August. You're just proving that you're a sorry Pacer fan that get but hurt about being wrong.
> 
> Just wait and you'll disappear then only to re-surface running your ***** lips about how it was a good deal after all.


If Wiggins is dealt or not is irrelevant. You _guaranteed_ every single poster on here that Wiggins *AND Waiters* would be dealt together for Love. When questioned on it you flipped out and acted like you had inside sources.

Would you like me to quote the post you made saying that? Or do you just want to run off like you usually do?

It's quite sad you keep bringing up the Pacers. Paul George is down for the season and I'll still buy league pass and watch every game I can and post about them on here. You? You'll continue to cheer for the winner.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



MemphisX said:


> I still have questions on Love based on his career to date:
> 
> Is he really a terrible defender?
> 
> Is he 'special' offensively or can he be guarded easily and by big 3s playing the 4?
> 
> Will his great rebounding translate when he is asked to defend?
> 
> Will his rebounding translate in big moments when challenged by longer and more athletic players in crunch time?
> 
> I am guessing he is a 18/9 type guy on a good team with better defense than he has shown. Still makes him a pretty good player but nowhere near worth the package Cleveland is possibly giving up.


I think his defense will slightly improve with the eased work load. Rebounding wise I can't see him dipping under 10. 

As far as if he can be easily guarded, I don't see that being the case. If it was easy to guard Love, they would have done it when he was on the Wolves. You pair him with the best basketball player in the world and Kyrie Irving and its just going to free him up even more.


----------



## Marcus13

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Idk if this has been posted but I went back a page and didnt see it , soo ;

Kevin Love is about to get his wish. The Timberwolves and Cavaliers have agreed to a trade in principle that would send Love to Cleveland for a package headlined by rookie Andrew Wiggins, according to Brian Windhorst in a radio appearance with Chris Broussard and Ryan Ruocco. The deal can officially be completed on Aug. 23 when Wiggins will no longer to bound by a rule that says players cannot be traded for 30 days following the signing of a new contract.

Anthony Bennett, the No. 1 overall selection from the 2013 draft, is also reportedly involved in the deal, but he may not be sticking in Minnesota. Bennett could be re-routed to Philadelphia in a trade that would send Thaddeus Young to the Timberwolves


----------



## Pyrex

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

At least for Wiggins he can be "The Guy" in Minnesota, and he probably would rather live there than Cleveland...that state is basically Canada anyways


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

You're..... Canadian.


----------



## Marcus13

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Sucks for Wiggins but oh well - the young'ns are supposed to pay their dues to incompetent franchises before they earn the right to play somewhere they actually enjoy.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> If Wiggins is dealt or not is irrelevant. You _guaranteed_ every single poster on here that Wiggins *AND Waiters* would be dealt together for Love. When questioned on it you flipped out and acted like you had inside sources.
> 
> Would you like me to quote the post you made saying that? Or do you just want to run off like you usually do?
> 
> It's quite sad you keep bringing up the Pacers. Paul George is down for the season and I'll still buy league pass and watch every game I can and post about them on here. You? You'll continue to cheer for the winner.


The fact that you're trying your best to change my stance is comical. Go ahead and post the quotes which i doubt you would because you like just running your mouth….

Come on R-Star show me where I guaranteed Waiters being apart of that deal. The only guarantee was Wiggins being dealt if Bron had signed


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> If Wiggins is dealt or not is irrelevant. You _guaranteed_ every single poster on here that Wiggins *AND Waiters* would be dealt together for Love. When questioned on it you flipped out and acted like you had inside sources.
> 
> Would you like me to quote the post you made saying that? Or do you just want to run off like you usually do?
> 
> *It's quite sad you keep bringing up the Pacers. Paul George is down for the season and I'll still buy league pass and watch every game I can and post about them on here. You? You'll continue to cheer for the winner*.


Not my fault the Spurs has been the best sports franchise in all sports. It's my fault that was born in Texas and have family that are huge Spurs fans. 

Spare me the PG being hurt speech. The Pacers weren't going to do **** if they had PG.


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pyrex said:


> At least for Wiggins he can be "The Guy" in Minnesota, and he probably would rather live there than Cleveland...that state is basically Canada anyways


I know you're just making a joke about Minnesota, but Wiggins isn't from _that_ part of Canada. It's like an hour flight from where his family lives (Toronto) to Cleveland, meaning that if/when he had an off day his parents/siblings could have conceivably flown in that morning, stuck around for lunch and dinner, and then flown home that night without any real trouble.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> Not my fault the Spurs has been the best sports franchise in all sports. It's my fault that was born in Texas and have family that are huge Spurs fans.
> 
> Spare me the PG being hurt speech. The Pacers weren't going to do **** if they had PG.


Buddy, you were a Miami fan all year. Everyone saw that. You want to pretend everyone didn't see that go ahead. But facts are facts.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> The fact that you're trying your best to change my stance is comical. Go ahead and post the quotes which i doubt you would because you like just running your mouth….
> 
> Come on R-Star show me where I guaranteed Waiters being apart of that deal. The only guarantee was Wiggins being dealt if Bron had signed


So before I actually dig up the post, are you saying that you never said it was going to be Wiggins and Waiters for Love?

That was after you were telling everyone no way Bron goes to Miami because Cleveland sucked, and now you're talking about how good they are, prepping your seat on the band wagon.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> So before I actually dig up the post, are you saying that you never said it was going to be Wiggins and Waiters for Love?
> 
> That was after you were telling everyone no way Bron goes to Miami because Cleveland sucked, and now you're talking about how good they are, prepping your seat on the band wagon.


Sure I said Waiters would be apart of the deal, but from the beginning I have always said and even before James signed. I have stood on my opinion that Wiggins would be dealt even if it was with two dead bodies. 

Damn either you can't comprehend or you're just a troll. Every player that you have named that was talent on the Cavs roster would've been dealt away except Thompson and Waiters. 

Yes, Cleveland has sucked since 2010, which explains the 3 overall #1 's in the last 5 years.

Show me the post i said they were good also..


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> Sure I said Waiters would be apart of the deal, but from the beginning I have always said and even before James signed. I have stood on my opinion that Wiggins would be dealt even if it was with two dead bodies.
> 
> Damn either you can't comprehend or you're just a troll. Every player that you have named that was talent on the Cavs roster would've been dealt away except Thompson and Waiters.
> 
> Yes, Cleveland has sucked since 2010, which explains the 3 overall #1 's in the last 5 years.
> 
> Show me the post i said they were good also..


Show you the post where you said they'd be good? You've called them a top team in the East after originally saying Lebron would never go there because of how bad they were.


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Show you the post where you said they'd be good? You've called them a top team in the East after originally saying Lebron would never go there because of how bad they were.


To be fair, _any_ team in the East is a top team if you add Lebron. Philly would challenge for their division if you dropped Lebron there overnight.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Bogg said:


> To be fair, _any_ team in the East is a top team if you add Lebron. Philly would challenge for their division if you dropped Lebron there overnight.


Hey..... shut up. 


Prior to the George injury I honestly thought the East would be quite a bit better this year. Washington should be solid, Toronto got better, its looking like there's a lot more parity this year. Or at least it did. Indiana isn't competing for anything this year outside of a 8th playoff seed at best.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Show you the post where you said they'd be good? You've called them a top team in the East after originally saying Lebron would never go there because of how bad they were.


No **** why wouldn't they be a good team after getting the best player in the NBA and trading for Love? Damn you're full of it


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Hey..... shut up.
> 
> 
> Prior to the George injury I honestly thought the East would be quite a bit better this year. Washington should be solid, Toronto got better, its looking like there's a lot more parity this year. Or at least it did. Indiana isn't competing for anything this year outside of a 8th playoff seed at best.


The East shouldn't have been as bad as it was last year. Brooklyn started out horrifically before turning it around and Cleveland/Detroit/New York/Milwaukee all put together teams that intended to compete for a playoff berth only to watch just about everything that could have gone wrong go wrong. It was really a particularly strong year for the West and a particularly unlucky one for the East.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Hey..... shut up.
> 
> 
> Prior to the George injury I honestly thought the East would be quite a bit better this year. Washington should be solid, Toronto got better, its looking like there's a lot more parity this year. Or at least it did. Indiana isn't competing for anything this year outside of a 8th playoff seed at best.


How did Washington or Toronto get better? It's the East. Not one team in the East has a shot at any West team, unless Rose is healthy (which I'm skeptical about) and the Bulls make a strong showing during the season.

There is only one team on the East besides Cleveland and the Bulls that got better and that's Charlotte.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> No **** why wouldn't they be a good team after getting the best player in the NBA and trading for Love? Damn you're full of it


You had said that even with Love Miami had the better supporting cast, so Im not sure what you're trying to pull here.

How many posts are you planning on making in the Miami forum this year? Still going to do the majority of your posting there like you did last year? Think you'll make any more threads about Mike Beasley?


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> How did Washington or Toronto get better? It's the East. Not one team in the East has a shot at any West team, unless Rose is healthy (which I'm skeptical about) and the Bulls make a strong showing during the season.
> 
> There is only one team on the East besides Cleveland and the Bulls that got better and that's Charlotte.


Uh, Washington is better due to them being a young team that's expected to improve. Not to mention Porter and Glen Rice JR destroyed in summer league and looked like they'll be great additions to next years roster.

Toronto added Lou Williams....

Do you... like do you even pay attention to what's going on in the league?

Every single person I've posted with or talked to see Washington as a better team going into next season.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> You had said that even with Love Miami had the better supporting cast, so Im not sure what you're trying to pull here.
> 
> How many posts are you planning on making in the Miami forum this year? Still going to do the majority of your posting there like you did last year? Think you'll make any more threads about Mike Beasley?


I get it now you're a liar. You have to lie to try to prove points. 

I said Miami had a better supporting cast as is before Bron signed. Find the post where you named about 6 players that were "good" talent and the next day 3-4 was traded, lol….


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Bogg said:


> The East shouldn't have been as bad as it was last year. Brooklyn started out horrifically before turning it around and Cleveland/Detroit/New York/Milwaukee all put together teams that intended to compete for a playoff berth only to watch just about everything that could have gone wrong go wrong. It was really a particularly strong year for the West and a particularly unlucky one for the East.


I think all the excitement over the draft last year had an impact for quite a few teams as well.


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> I get it now you're a liar. You have to lie to try to prove points.
> 
> I said Miami had a better supporting cast as is before Bron signed. Find the post where you named about 6 players that were "good" talent and the next day 3-4 was traded, lol….


What 3 to 4 were traded? Jack was traded after I made that list. 

The next day 3 to 4 were traded? Are you touched in the head?

This was all while you were insisting Wiggins would be traded with Waiters (because every team wants to trade for 2 shooting guards who think they're starters.......) and prior to that you were telling everyone how there was no way Lebron would go to Cleveland. 

Keep going Pablo.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> What 3 to 4 were traded? Jack was traded after I made that list.
> 
> The next day 3 to 4 were traded? Are you touched in the head?
> 
> This was all while you were insisting Wiggins would be traded with Waiters (because every team wants to trade for 2 shooting guards who think they're starters.......) and prior to that you were telling everyone how there was no way Lebron would go to Cleveland.
> 
> Keep going Pablo.


Damn ok I'm done. You're a liar and a idiot. So I'm guessing you don't recall Cleveland trading Jack, Zellar and few other pieces to make room for Bron?


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> Damn ok I'm done. You're a liar and a idiot. So I'm guessing you don't recall Cleveland trading Jack, Zellar and few other pieces to make room for Bron?


It's Zeller. Tyler Zeller. What other pieces?

And yes, I remember Jack being traded, that's why I mentioned him.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> Uh, Washington is better due to them being a young team that's expected to improve. Not to mention Porter and Glen Rice JR destroyed in summer league and looked like they'll be great additions to next years roster.
> 
> Toronto added Lou Williams....
> 
> Do you... like do you even pay attention to what's going on in the league?
> 
> Every single person I've posted with or talked to see Washington as a better team going into next season.


Didn't they get Paul Peirce too?


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> Didn't they get Paul Peirce too?


Yea. I don't see him as an upgrade over Ariza though. Many do, but not this guy.


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Interesting perspective on why this trade could be a disaster for Cleveland.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-could-be-cleveland-cavaliers-worst-nightmare



> Per NBA.com's SportVU data, Love ranked No. 74 of the 77 players who faced at least five shots per game at the rim when it came to field-goal percentage allowed right at the hoop. He went up against 9.1 shots during the average contest, and opponents connected 57.4 percent of the time.
> 
> Anderson Varejao was only slightly better, finishing No. 64 while allowing 54.2 percent shooting on 5.3 attempts per game. And lest you think there would be help coming off the bench, Tristan Thompson ranked No. 76 (59.1 percent on 5.2 shots faced per game).
> 
> It's a horrific combination, one that doesn't bode well for the "defense wins championships" mantra. Even if the Cavaliers advanced through the Eastern Conference, which remains a distinct possibility with or without Love, beating the West's representative would be an awfully difficult challenge without being able to avoid leaking points in the paint.


The article brings up so many good points. Wiggins can become a superstar, Wiggins is probably only about a year away from being a major contributor who you get ON A ROOKIE CONTRACT, Love and their other big men are terrible at-the-rim defenders, Love could leave after this season, etc.

I really think you can make solid arguments for both sides of this deal, but I just don't understand why you would risk your potential superstar that hasn't even played for you yet for a guy that could leave after next year. And even if he doesn't leave, you now have 3 max contracts which gives you very little flexibility. I just don't think Love is worth it man...


----------



## R-Star

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> Interesting perspective on why this trade could be a disaster for Cleveland.
> 
> http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-could-be-cleveland-cavaliers-worst-nightmare
> 
> 
> 
> The article brings up so many good points. Wiggins can become a superstar, Wiggins is probably only about a year away from being a major contributor who you get ON A ROOKIE CONTRACT, Love and their other big men are terrible at-the-rim defenders, Love could leave after this season, etc.
> 
> I really think you can make solid arguments for both sides of this deal, but I just don't understand why you would risk your potential superstar that hasn't even played for you yet for a guy that could leave after next year. And even if he doesn't leave, you now have 3 max contracts which gives you very little flexibility. I just don't think Love is worth it man...


I think it will be a mistake, but I've been wrong in the past.


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



cima said:


> Interesting perspective on why this trade could be a disaster for Cleveland.
> 
> http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-could-be-cleveland-cavaliers-worst-nightmare
> 
> 
> 
> The article brings up so many good points. Wiggins *can become a superstar*, Wiggins is probably only about a year away from being a major contributor who you get ON A ROOKIE CONTRACT, Love and their other big men are terrible at-the-rim defenders, Love could leave after this season, etc.
> 
> I really think you can make solid arguments for both sides of this deal, but I just don't understand why you would risk your potential superstar that hasn't even played for you yet for a guy that could leave after next year. And even if he doesn't leave, you now have 3 max contracts which gives you very little flexibility. I just don't think Love is worth it man...


Or he can be a bust. Im not sold on Wiggins at all. I don't think he's the player people are predicting. I didn't see much in college, but a guy that was very undisciplined at times and would flat shoot his team into a graveyard.


----------



## Marcus13

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

I don't think Wiggins has any bust potential at all. He may not become a Superstar, but I'd bet my life's savings on him becoming an All-Star


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Marcus13 said:


> I don't think Wiggins has any bust potential at all. He may not become a Superstar, but I'd bet my life's savings on him becoming an All-Star


Time will tell


----------



## cima

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



Pablo5 said:


> Or he can be a bust. Im not sold on Wiggins at all. I don't think he's the player people are predicting. I didn't see much in college, but a guy that was very undisciplined at times and would flat shoot his team into a graveyard.


Wiggins definitely won't be a bust. He's not a guaranteed superstar either, but he will at least be an all-star.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Rather than look at this as a biased Cavs fan (which I am willing to admit I am), I will try to look at this from a subjective view and look at the pros and cons of acquiring Love through a trade.

Pros:
-Love is a Superstar player who not too long ago broke the consecutive double double record and just got done breaking an NBA record this past season. We don't know what Wiggins will turn into, but we do know what to expect from Love.
-Love is the perfect player to have play alongside someone like Lebron James, the best basketball player in the world. 
-Love has proven himself to be a clutch performer, and will now be joining a team whose two best players are Lebron and Irving, who are also very clutch performers. Safe to say, this team will be dangerous in the fourth quarter and will be very hard to stop.
-Offensively, the Cavaliers improve tremendously and will without a doubt be one of, if not, the best offensive team in the NBA this upcoming season. 
-Love still has yet to reach his prime.
-Wiggins style of play does not fit in as well as Love's does with the Lebron James led Cavaliers, and solves the issue of what position Wiggins would be playing in. 
-With Love's passing, the offense will flow a lot more smoothly.
-Love has made it clear he will sign long term with the Cavaliers if traded there (apparently a lot of people here keep forgetting about that), so they have him set in for a long time.
-His rebounding, which is without a doubt one of the best in the NBA right now, will be huge for the Cavaliers on both ends of the floor. He and Varejao will prove to be a deadly rebounding combo and teams will struggle.
-And, most importantly, the Cavaliers become instant title contenders rather than needing to take a few years to become a better team. 

Cons:
-This gives the Cavaliers three max contracts to deal with for the next 5 or so years, allowing for much less flexibility for a franchise located in a city that isn't exactly popular among fans.
-Kevin Love joining the Cavaliers makes a big hole defensively in the Cavaliers team, even with some great defensive talent already in the starting line up with Lebron and Varejao, as Irving has had a lot of trouble with defense since first joining the NBA.
-Injuries. Love has, for the most part, been good in regards to staying healthy, but had a year where he was on the shelf for most of it due to injury. If this becomes a problem again, his ability to play the game will be affected.
-Love has never played a single playoff game. As of now we have no idea how good he will be when that time comes.
-Wiggins could grow into a bust (which isn't likely), he could grow into a good player. He could grow into an all star. But he could also grow into a superstar player who impacts both sides of the floor in ways we've never seen before. And we have very good reason to believe this. Odds are, Cavaliers could be giving up someone who will grow to be better than Love ever was at any point in his career. 

There are some negatives. I won't deny this. But I just can't see how this can turn out to be a bad thing unless Lebron, Irving and Love all suddenly become a lot worse than they previously were. This could be one of the best pairings of superstars we ever see just because of how well their styles complement each other.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

There is no such thing as a superstar with zero playoff points.


----------



## Drizzy

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> I think it will be a mistake.



Agreed.


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Bogg

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> I think all the excitement over the draft last year had an impact for quite a few teams as well.


I don't know that it actually did outside of Philly and maybe the Lakers (throw Detroit in there at the very end of the season once it became clear they were closer to keeping their pick than making the playoffs if you want). Orlando was just in a natural down cycle in the aftermath of trading Dwight, Boston took an offer that was too good to pass up from Brooklyn no matter _what_ the next draft looked like, and after them you're looking at the Milwaukee/Detroit/Cleveland/NY group that all started out the season with playoff intentions. 

On second thought, you can throw Utah in among the teams that might have timed things to coincide with this past draft. Al Jefferson and Paul Millsap didn't exactly get so much on the open market that the Jazz couldn't have afforded them, and they probably could have traded Kanter and/or Favors for competent guard help to try to make the playoffs. Then again, the West was so brutal they probably would have come up short anyway.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



MemphisX said:


> There is no such thing as a superstar with zero playoff points.


This is very bad logic to go by. So you suddenly need a point in the playoffs to be eligible to be a superstar? So Luke Walton or Daniel Gibson are more eligible for superstar status than Kevin Love, a guy with multiple NBA records to his name after, what, six seasons in the league, is?


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> This is very bad logic to go by. So you suddenly need a point in the playoffs to be eligible to be a superstar? So Luke Walton or Daniel Gibson are more eligible for superstar status than Kevin Love, a guy with multiple NBA records to his name after, what, six seasons in the league, is?



:hibbert:


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



MemphisX said:


> :hibbert:


Nope, sorry, doesn't apply here. You're wrong and you know it...

Oh...wait.

Okay fine you win.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

Is there a big difference between Carlos Boozer at 25 and Kevin Love?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



MemphisX said:


> Is there a big difference between Carlos Boozer at 25 and Kevin Love?


This is interesting because boozer does share some similar traits. However, love is still a better rebounder and scorer, and a better passer as well. I'm not really sure who is better defensively however. 

The biggest difference however is that love is capable of being the face of a franchise, I could never picture Boozer doing the same.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



MemphisX said:


> Is there a big difference between Carlos Boozer at 25 and Kevin Love?


Love is more of a floor spacer because of his increased range, but Boozer at 25 was actually better at finishing around the basket than is Love right now.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



MemphisX said:


> There is no such thing as a superstar with zero playoff points.


I don't really agree with this philosophy. Plenty of superstar players missed the playoffs with bad franchises. 

Kevin Garnett (who most people would say was a better player than Love) missed the playoffs 4 times with that same Minnesota franchise in a weaker western conference. 

Dominique Wilkins missed the postseason 3 times (once in his prime). 

When Charles Barkley was right around Kevin Love's age, he missed the playoffs one season and got swept the next season despite being the best PF in basketball at the time.

Pete Maravich missed the playoffs 6 times, several of which were in the middle of his prime, because he was stuck on a horrible franchise.

These things do happen. I don't like blanket statements that apply to every player. Guys sometimes find themselves in situations that are beyond their control. Love happens to have played his first few seasons in a loaded conference with a struggling front office.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



MemphisX said:


> Is there a big difference between Carlos Boozer at 25 and Kevin Love?


Yes, the Cavs could have had boozer but let him go.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



RollWithEm said:


> I don't really agree with this philosophy. Plenty of superstar players missed the playoffs with bad franchises.
> 
> Kevin Garnett (who most people would say was a better player than Love) missed the playoffs 4 times with that same Minnesota franchise in a weaker western conference.
> 
> Dominique Wilkins missed the postseason 3 times (once in his prime).
> 
> When Charles Barkley was right around Kevin Love's age, he missed the playoffs one season and got swept the next season despite being the best PF in basketball at the time.
> 
> Pete Maravich missed the playoffs 6 times, several of which were in the middle of his prime, because he was stuck on a horrible franchise.
> 
> These things do happen. I don't like blanket statements that apply to every player. Guys sometimes find themselves in situations that are beyond their control. Love happens to have played his first few seasons in a loaded conference with a struggling front office.


I don't think that's necessarily what he's saying, but I agree none the less.


----------



## MemphisX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



XxIrvingxX said:


> This is interesting because boozer does share some similar traits. However, love is still a better rebounder and scorer, and a better passer as well. I'm not really sure who is better defensively however.
> 
> The biggest difference however is that love is capable of being the face of a franchise, I could never picture Boozer doing the same.



Face of a franchise? He hasn't played on a winning team in the NBA. What the heck are you talking about?


The point remains. A lot of players people on this board criticize, that criticism grew from playoff performances and performances in crucial situations. Love hasn't played a serious NBA game in his career.

Watch that video you posted and see how lackadaisical Ibaka and the Thunder were defending him. Nobody cares about playing the Timebrwolves or Kevin Love. Only time I remember players going hard body on Kevin Love was when he made the All Star team over certain PFs and they put work on him on both ends.

I am saying I am not sure what people see when they watch Kevin Love but when I watch him, I see that when things become serious, he is not really able to put his stamp on the court. He doesn't get crucial rebounds, doesn't get crucial buckets and does not get stops. He isn't a superstar. I have seen superstars on bad teams and he ain't it.

I expect nothing less from Cleveland because they make questionable moves. No way would I lock myself into Kevin Love/Kyrie Irvin as LeBron running mates after watching a superior version in Miami come up short.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



MemphisX said:


> Face of a franchise? He hasn't played on a winning team in the NBA. What the heck are you talking about?


He has been the face of the Timberwolves franchise for the past four years and you can't deny this. I don't care what the Timberwolves record is, he has been their star and he has certainly played like one. 



MemphisX said:


> The point remains. A lot of players people on this board criticize, that criticism grew from playoff performances and performances in crucial situations. Love hasn't played a serious NBA game in his career.
> 
> Watch that video you posted and see how lackadaisical Ibaka and the Thunder were defending him. Nobody cares about playing the Timebrwolves or Kevin Love. Only time I remember players going hard body on Kevin Love was when he made the All Star team over certain PFs and they put work on him on both ends.


This is bullshit in so many ways. First, you are once again putting unfair criticism that ends up falling on a very mute point because what you are saying doesn't prove anything. The Thunder know how dangerous of a player Kevin Love is, as do many other teams. And I've seen PF's and Centers attempt to defend Love and fail miserably (although I've seen a couple succeed as well). 

And your criteria for what makes a game serious is also bullshit. 



MemphisX said:


> I am saying I am not sure what people see when they watch Kevin Love but when I watch him, I see that when things become serious, he is not really able to put his stamp on the court. He doesn't get crucial rebounds, doesn't get crucial buckets and does not get stops. He isn't a superstar. I have seen superstars on bad teams and he ain't it.


You just got done saying he's never played a serious game in his life. Now you're suddenly saying when he's serious he can't perform? That's funny because I just got done showing you a video where he performs serious and he saves his team from losing by putting up a 50 point 17 rebound performance against one of the best teams in the NBA. So make up your mind. 

Also, you're basically trying to say that Love doesn't get wins for his team. Well, then I guess I should point out to you that Love ranked third this past season in win shares for a team that didn't even make the playoffs. 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014_leaders.html

In other words, you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. He is a Superstar. 



MemphisX said:


> I expect nothing less from Cleveland because they make questionable moves. No way would I lock myself into Kevin Love/Kyrie Irvin as LeBron running mates after watching a superior version in Miami come up short.


You clearly haven't watched much games involving Irving or Love and don't understand the concept that is Lebron's game if you think Miami's big three is a superior pairing. Maybe talent wise, but Irving and Love fit Lebron a lot better than Wade and Bosh ever did.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page...timberwolves-talks-now-include-andrew-wiggins

Very interesting look into the trade from analysts on ESPN.


----------



## Basel

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



> @WojYahooNBA: Sources: Cavs have agreement for Kevin Love, including long-term contract commitment. Wiggins, Bennett, pick to Minn. http://t.co/r2KmO5owwY


...


----------



## Basel

Can't wait for the NBA season. I know Love now goes from being a franchise player to second fiddle (maybe third) to LeBron and Irving but the pressure on him to produce just increased even more, in my opinion. 

Still wouldn't have done it if I was Cleveland but Minnesota should be thrilled. They weren't going to get anything better.


----------



## gi0rdun

It would be interesting if the Love/Wiggins trade becomes this era's Divac/Kobe trade.


----------



## Basel

gi0rdun said:


> It would be interesting if the Love/Wiggins trade becomes this era's Divac/Kobe trade.



Minnesota can only hope so.


----------



## Basel

Cleveland is going to be lots of fun to watch. Definitely EC favorites right now with the only other team realistically favored to win will be Chicago.


----------



## Marcus13

Surprised Love is willing to play the 3rd fiddle, Chris Bosh spot-up shooter role on the team at this stage of his career. Oh well, at least he'll be able to brag about his efficiency


----------



## kbdullah

Cleveland still has holes to fill. Backup PG and backup C namely. Waiters will have to be sold on his role as a spot up shooter.


----------



## FSH

gi0rdun said:


> It would be interesting if the Love/Wiggins trade becomes this era's Divac/Kobe trade.


Ya because Kevin and his 26ppg 13rpg and 4apg is the same as Divac and his 12ppg and 8rpg

Doesnt even make sense Vlade was a solid big man where Love is a all star stretch 4. Cavs are not getting a role player they are getting a legit superstar for Wiggins


----------



## FSH

kbdullah said:


> Cleveland still has holes to fill. Backup PG and backup C namely. Waiters will have to be sold on his role as a spot up shooter.


Sign Ray Allen and ship out Waiters for a couple Role Players would be a good deal


----------



## Basel

FSH said:


> Sign Ray Allen and ship out Waiters for a couple Role Players would be a good deal



I wonder how many more role players they can get who are good. MM, Matrix and Ray isn't a bad start.


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

On a side note, the Wolves are going to be scary on the break with Rubio, LaVine and Wiggins pushing the ball. Dunks everywhere. Should be a fun team to watch. They won't win much though.


----------



## kbdullah

King Sancho Fantastic said:


> On a side note, the Wolves are going to be scary on the break with Rubio, LaVine and Wiggins pushing the ball. Dunks everywhere. Should be a fun team to watch. They won't win much though.


Yeah the fast breaks will be Lob City North. Half-court will be ugly as hell though w/ no shooters or proven scorers. That's one reason they should keep Kevin Martin so they don't start too many unknowns at the same time.


----------



## RollWithEm

King Sancho Fantastic said:


> On a side note, the Wolves are going to be scary on the break with Rubio, LaVine and Wiggins pushing the ball. Dunks everywhere. Should be a fun team to watch. They won't win much though.


If they get Thad, him and Dieng with those three would really make for a scary fastbreak team.


----------



## Bogg

FSH said:


> Sign Ray Allen and ship out Waiters for a couple Role Players would be a good deal





Basel said:


> I wonder how many more role players they can get who are good. MM, Matrix and Ray isn't a bad start.


Waiters and Haywood for Courtney Lee and Kosta Koufos?


----------



## kbdullah

Basel said:


> I wonder how many more role players they can get who are good. MM, Matrix and Ray isn't a bad start.


Once this Kevin Love deal becomes official, I think Ray and Marion jump on the bandwagon. Nice pieces sure, but seems like LeBron always has good bench backup on the wings and never at point or center.


----------



## RollWithEm

kbdullah said:


> Once this Kevin Love deal becomes official, I think Ray and Marion jump on the bandwagon. Nice pieces sure, but seems like LeBron always has good bench backup on the wings and never at point or center.


Marion will get a bigger offer from the Pacers if they get awarded an exemption for Paul George.


----------



## kbdullah

Cleveland can only offer the minimum, so I'm sure Marion has bigger offers elsewhere.


----------



## cima

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/497207696966553601


----------



## RollWithEm

cima said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/497207696966553601


Woj is the best.


----------



## cima

Woj is f'n money!


----------



## King Sancho Fantastic

I can already see the Uncle Drew and Wes with Wise Lebron commercials in my head...


----------



## RollWithEm

King Sancho Fantastic said:


> I can already see the Uncle Drew and Wes with Wise Lebron commercials in my head...


I didn't even think about the Uncle Drew/Love commercials. It's almost like this was the plan all along.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

That's a young team in Minnesota. They'll now be shopping Barea, Martin, Brewer and Budinger like crazy, I'm sure. I would expect to see them do something like flip Bennett and Barea for Thad Young. LaVine and Muhammad also looked like they've developed a bit this summer, so the more playing time for those guys, the better. 

Ricky Rubio / Mo Williams / JJ Barea
Kevin Martin / Corey Brewer / Zach LaVine / Alexey Shved
Andrew Wiggins / Chase Budinger / Shabazz Muhammad / Robbie Hummel
Anthony Bennett / Ronny Turiaf / LR Mbah a Moute
Nikola Pekovic / Gorgui Dieng


----------



## kbdullah

Minnesota is basically Cleveland now. Young team w/ a bunch of assets waiting for the opportunity to trade them for an established stud.


----------



## RollWithEm

Damian Necronamous said:


> They'll now be shopping Barea


The report earlier in this thread from either Woj or Windhorst (I believe) was that Barea will be going to Cleveland along with Love.


----------



## Marcus13

FSH said:


> Sign Ray Allen and ship out Waiters for a couple Role Players would be a good deal


Jesus isn't going to Cleveland.

He wants to return to Miami but the stupid Heat still haven't made him an offer  .


----------



## hobojoe

Pekovic is a good enough offensive player that someone will take him despite the contract he has. Dieng showed that he needs to be on the court. Time for the full blow up, say goodbye to Pek and K-Mart.

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## Pablo5

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



MemphisX said:


> There is no such thing as a superstar with zero playoff points.


I agree. There is only a few superstars in the Nba. I will admit i think love hasnt played meaniful game in his career


----------



## Pablo5

kbdullah said:


> Minnesota is basically Cleveland now. Young team w/ a bunch of assets waiting for the opportunity to trade them for an established stud.


The only difference is I think Minnesota has a better front office and coaching staff. In a few years they MAY be a decent team


----------



## Bogg

hobojoe said:


> Pekovic is a good enough offensive player that someone will take him despite the contract he has. Dieng showed that he needs to be on the court. Time for the full blow up, say goodbye to Pek and K-Mart.


I mean, if somebody wants to give you a good offer on either Pekovic or Martin then sure, they're available, but I don't see any _need_ to move them now. Tanking doesn't make much sense, because you've already got your young cornerstone in Wiggins and some possibly-high-upside prospects in Rubio, Lavine, Dieng, and Bennett (if he stays around). Even though the West is brutal right now, it seems like they'd be better served keeping the veterans around and playing competitive basketball (even if you only win 30 games in the process) than completely stripping it down and losing by 20 every night.


----------



## Drizzy

I hope this works out better for the Cavs than I think it will.


----------



## Babe Ruth

*Re: Update: Love 'says' he wants to explore FA, Wolves open to 'right deal'*



R-Star said:


> If Kevin Love cared about winning so much, maybe he'd try on defense.
> 
> I'm not defending the Wolves, but if you're a top 5 player, arguably to some top 3, you can at least lead your team to the playoffs once in your career.


Most metrics have Love as an OK to above average defender. While he doesn't have great block numbers (0.5 per game), he gets about a steal a game, and his defensive rebounding numbers are obviously very good. He's also very good at avoiding personal fouls. I don't really understand the obsession people have with punishing him for his team's lack of success - The Western Conference is currently constituted like Battle Royale / The Hunger Games. Lebron carried some truly horrible Cavs teams to the playoffs in the East, and Wade did the same with the Heat, but there aren't many one-man, one-All Star teams in the West making the playoffs.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Nice deal for both teams. I can't imagine Wiggins being a bust, but it's possible that it takes him 2-3 years to become an all-star level player. With LeBron's window being right now, I'd say getting Love in his prime is the right move. Offensively, Love is a perfect fit. Defensively, I think he can be hidden well enough, and his rebounding on both ends will be very valuable.


----------



## hobojoe

Bogg said:


> I mean, if somebody wants to give you a good offer on either Pekovic or Martin then sure, they're available, but I don't see any _need_ to move them now. Tanking doesn't make much sense, because you've already got your young cornerstone in Wiggins and some possibly-high-upside prospects in Rubio, Lavine, Dieng, and Bennett (if he stays around). Even though the West is brutal right now, it seems like they'd be better served keeping the veterans around and playing competitive basketball (even if you only win 30 games in the process) than completely stripping it down and losing by 20 every night.


I don't disagree, especially about Martin. I wouldn't say shipping him out is an urgent need, just that if there's a deal that makes sense take it. But I do think Pek has value and should be moved to free up minutes for Dieng. Can't see them playing effectively together and I can't see Pek riding the pine with what he's being paid. He still has considerable value to a team needing an inside scoring presence. 

Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## cima




----------



## Bogg

hobojoe said:


> I don't disagree, especially about Martin. I wouldn't say shipping him out is an urgent need, just that if there's a deal that makes sense take it. But I do think Pek has value and should be moved to free up minutes for Dieng. Can't see them playing effectively together and I can't see Pek riding the pine with what he's being paid. He still has considerable value to a team needing an inside scoring presence.


I'll put it this way - I want to see more than a month and a half of solid play from a guy before I ship out a veteran to turn the position over to him, and if Dieng plays really well over the start of the season you shouldn't have any trouble trading Pekovic mid-season. Plus - look at the way Greg Monroe's summer's going. It doesn't appear that market for guys like them is exactly on fire right now. In fact, if somebody's really hot after a young(ish) rim-protector on a cheap deal I'd be just as open to moving Dieng.


----------



## kbdullah

Bogg said:


> I mean, if somebody wants to give you a good offer on either Pekovic or Martin then sure, they're available, but I don't see any _need_ to move them now. Tanking doesn't make much sense, because you've already got your young cornerstone in Wiggins and some possibly-high-upside prospects in Rubio, Lavine, Dieng, and Bennett (if he stays around). Even though the West is brutal right now, it seems like they'd be better served keeping the veterans around and playing competitive basketball (even if you only win 30 games in the process) than completely stripping it down and losing by 20 every night.


I agree, the West will pummel them as they are, so they don't need to gut the team. There are already at least 10 teams in the West that are better. I think you need the vets around to give some structure to the younger players.


----------



## Knick Killer

When you look back at teams that have been forced to trade their star players, they usually get nothing near fair value. Minnesota on the other hand, just won the lottery. What a fantastic return for a guy that was leaving your team in a year regardless. Even if Kevin Love wanted to stay in Minnesota, I think this would be a good trade for the Wolves. Excited to see Rubio-Lavine-Wiggins play together, they will be a lot of fun. I also think a change of scenery for Bennett could help him too.


----------



## Drizzy

This is great news for people hoping that Wiggins heads over to the Raptors eventually (myself included). I do also hope it works out for Wiggins with the Wolves though.


----------



## Diable

Drizzy said:


> This is great news for people hoping that Wiggins heads over to the Raptors eventually (myself included). I do also hope it works out for Wiggins with the Wolves though.


Only likely way that happens soon is if Wiggins is a relative bust. Or perhaps Wiggins could be the first person to turn down that Max extension after his rookie deal...It could happen.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Knick Killer said:


> When you look back at teams that have been forced to trade their star players, they usually get nothing near fair value. Minnesota on the other hand, just won the lottery. What a fantastic return for a guy that was leaving your team in a year regardless. Even if Kevin Love wanted to stay in Minnesota, I think this would be a good trade for the Wolves. Excited to see Rubio-Lavine-Wiggins play together, they will be a lot of fun. I also think a change of scenery for Bennett could help him too.


I agree.

Obviously, it's a little painfull to watch the T'Wolves "build for the future" AGAIN, but they have a squad full of potential... Rubio is only 23, Pekovic is not THAT old (28) and they've added LaVine, Wiggins and Bennet. Pretty solid clay.
They are in much better form than when KG left.


----------



## Pablo5

Sir Patchwork said:


> Nice deal for both teams. I can't imagine Wiggins being a bust, but it's possible that it takes him 2-3 years to become an all-star level player. With LeBron's window being right now, I'd say getting Love in his prime is the right move. Offensively, Love is a perfect fit. Defensively, I think he can be hidden well enough, and his rebounding on both ends will be very valuable.


It's the only move. Bringing Bron back force the Cavs hand to trade Wiggins for a good player that can help Bron right now. The Cavs dont have the 7 year window they before 2010. 

Now Wiggins will have to play up to the potential the media and fans hype him to be.


----------



## l0st1

Rumors are that Bennett will then be sent to Sixers for Thad Young which is probably a good trade for both teams.

Also, apparently Shawn Marion is leaning towards signing with the Cavs which would be a nice pickup. If they can land a real backup center the Cavs will be set. Though a backup "PG" would be a decent pickup as well.

PG: Irving
SG: Waiters, Miller, Jones
SF: Lebron, Miller, Marion, Jones
PF: Love, Thompson
C: Varejao, Zeller?


----------



## Mrs. Thang

That's by far the most in return I can remember a team ever getting for a star player. They gave up so much I'm not sure the trade isn't ultimately a wash.


----------



## Marcus13

The more I think about this trade, the worse and worse it gets. At least for Cleveland, LeBron can't blame this one on the management. He pushed this dumb shit through. Excellent steal by Minnesota though - not very often they win anything, including a trade. Good day for that miserable franchise.


----------



## Pablo5

Marcus13 said:


> The more I think about this trade, the worse and worse it gets. At least for Cleveland, LeBron can't blame this one on the management. Excellent steal by Minnesota though - not very often they win anything, including a trade. Good day for that miserable franchise.


As of right now what did the Cavs give up?


----------



## Marcus13

Pablo5 said:


> As of right now what did the Cavs give up?


Andrew Wiggins and ALL of their Cap flexibility.


----------



## Dissonance

You'll be singing a different tune if Ray Allen joins the Cavs


----------



## Pablo5

Marcus13 said:


> Andrew Wiggins and ALL of their Cap flexibility.


Meaning potential? Wiggins has done nothing in the Nba, Bennett has done nothing in the Nba, and the flexibility term means nothing. You can't win championships with flexibility. The Nba isn't set up that way.


----------



## Marcus13

Pablo5 said:


> Meaning potential? Wiggins has done nothing in the Nba, Bennett has done nothing in the Nba, and the flexibility term means nothing. You can't win championships with flexibility. The Nba isn't set up that way.


The Cavs aren't set up to win a championship this year with or without Kevin Love. It's not even there goal. As LeBron said, they are a long ways off from that goal and it's going to be a long, trying process. You need flexibility to develop that kind of team. This move set them back from that ultimate goal.


----------



## seifer0406

Diable said:


> Only likely way that happens soon is if Wiggins is a relative bust. Or perhaps Wiggins could be the first person to turn down that Max extension after his rookie deal...It could happen.


I don't see why he needs to be a bust for that to happen. You don't think a 23 year old would take 1 year less on a contract?

The way I see it money will not factor into that decision. It will have more to do with Wiggins's performance on the court and his own desire to come to Toronto. If Wiggins turns out to be a bust then the Raptors wouldn't want him anyway.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

My three favorite players will be playing for the Cavaliers this upcoming season...

TIME TO GO CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## kbdullah

Marcus13 said:


> The Cavs aren't set up to win a championship this year with or without Kevin Love. It's not even there goal. As LeBron said, they are a long ways off from that goal and it's going to be a long, trying process. You need flexibility to develop that kind of team. This move set them back from that ultimate goal.


I think LeBron said that as a way to take a step back from his "not one, not two...not six" statements in Decision I. I think he fully expected to contend as soon as possible.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Pablo5 said:


> Meaning potential? Wiggins has done nothing in the Nba, Bennett has done nothing in the Nba, and the flexibility term means nothing. You can't win championships with flexibility. The Nba isn't set up that way.


Just want to que my exicitment to respond to this idiotic comment.

There is such thing as flexibility in the NBA. Having flexibility on a team is how you build a championship team. How the flying **** do you think Miami was able to go to the finals for four straight years? It takes more than a big three to win titles. Luckily for the Cavs, they have some good depth on this team but still have a few spots to fill up.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Marcus13 said:


> The Cavs aren't set up to win a championship this year with or without Kevin Love. It's not even there goal. As LeBron said, they are a long ways off from that goal and it's going to be a long, trying process. You need flexibility to develop that kind of team. This move set them back from that ultimate goal.


I'm sorry but this is total bullshit. Their goal of winning a championship was not set back at all by them from making this trade and you know it, and it's dumb to deny it. Love on this team makes them instant favorites to go to the finals this year, bar none, and they are easily one step closer to winning a title. You're using a moment that Lebron said when he was referring to the team that didn't have Kevin Love on it and him coming there didn't look like a possibility. 

The Cavs winning the finals this year just became their goal this year. They are the clear favorites in the east, and if what someone here said about JJ coming to Cleveland in the trade is true and Cavs can get Marion, they will continue to build up on what is already very good depth for a team with three all stars and they will be a very dangerous team.


----------



## Diable

seifer0406 said:


> I don't see why he needs to be a bust for that to happen. You don't think a 23 year old would take 1 year less on a contract?
> 
> The way I see it money will not factor into that decision. It will have more to do with Wiggins's performance on the court and his own desire to come to Toronto. If Wiggins turns out to be a bust then the Raptors wouldn't want him anyway.


If Wiggins is got enough for the Timberwolves to offer him the five year true Max he's going to take it and if he does not he'll be the first person who ever turned it down. 

Think about what you're saying.


----------



## edabomb

I still don't get why everyone thinks Kevin Love is the proven option here.

Guy has put up insane numbers on terrible teams. He still hasn't played in a game that matters after 6(?) years in the league.


----------



## Pablo5

XxIrvingxX said:


> Just want to que my exicitment to respond to this idiotic comment.
> 
> There is such thing as flexibility in the NBA. *Having flexibility on a team is how you build a championship team. How the flying **** do you think Miami was able to go to the finals for four straight years?* It takes more than a big three to win titles. Luckily for the Cavs, they have some good depth on this team but still have a few spots to fill up.


It's simple you slow retard. They had NO flexibility. Why the hell you think they stuck to signing league min guys. The big three wipe up 75% of the salary cap and left no room for any major move. You're just being a desperate Cavs fan just as you were before 2010.


----------



## FSH

edabomb said:


> Guy has put up insane numbers on terrible teams. He still hasn't played in a game that matters after 6(?) years in the league.


Its not like he is playing against different teams. The guy isnt moving from Europe to the NBA. This doesnt make sense at all. Of course his numbers will go down because is moving to a better team but he is still playing the same dam teams he put up big numbers against all of his career so far


----------



## FSH

Pablo5 said:


> It's simple you slow retard. They had NO flexibility. Why the hell you think they stuck to signing league min guys. The big three wipe up 75% of the salary cap and left no room for any major move. You're just being a desperate Cavs fan just as you were before 2010.


So who should they sign with all that Cap Flexibility not trading for Love will give them?

Also they still have young trade chips in Thompson and Waiters


----------



## seifer0406

Diable said:


> If Wiggins is got enough for the Timberwolves to offer him the five year true Max he's going to take it and if he does not he'll be the first person who ever turned it down.
> 
> Think about what you're saying.


Explain to me the difference between Wiggins giving up a year and signing with another team with all the other free agents that have given up a year to sign with another team. Is there a difference that I'm not aware of between a rookie coming off his rookie contract vs. a regular player coming off any contract?


----------



## Pablo5

FSH said:


> So who should they sign with all that Cap Flexibility not trading for Love will give them?


Cleveland will be in the same boat as Miami. The Cavs were at the cap when they signed Bron. Now they will resign Love which will most likely put them over the cap. I never said they had flexibility.


----------



## FSH

Pablo5 said:


> Cleveland will be in the same boat as Miami. The Cavs were at the cap when they signed Bron. Now they will resign Love which will most likely put them over the cap. I never said they had flexibility.


Wtf does that matter? They will still sign Ray Allen and Shawn Marion and they got Thompson and Waiters to deal if they need help. The Cap means shit Heat did it without Flexibility. Spurs drafted well and signed players no one else wanted in Danny Green,Patty Mills to win a championship


----------



## Pablo5

seifer0406 said:


> Explain to me the difference between Wiggins giving up a year and signing with another team with all the other free agents that have given up a year to sign with another team. Is there a difference that I'm not aware of between a rookie coming off his rookie contract vs. a regular player coming off any contract?


Minnesota will have the option that no other club will have and that's one extra year at 20+ million. I don't see anyone turning that down. Especially a guy that just existing his rookie contract


----------



## Pablo5

FSH said:


> Wtf does that matter? They will still sign Ray Allen and Shawn Marion and they got Thompson and Waiters to deal if they need help. The Cap means shit Heat did it without Flexibility. *Spurs drafted well and signed players no one else wanted in Danny Green,Patty Mills to win a championship*


Ok, now you don't know what the **** you're talking about. The Spurs wouldn't have any flexibility to get any decent players if the core don't take below market contracts as they have for the last couple of seasons. Yes they drafted well, but you do realize the same players you mention were on their last leg if the Spurs didn't extend that olive branch.

Miami did it because the East is so damn weak right now and they were a three pointer away from losing 2 years in a row in the Nba Finals


----------



## FSH

Pablo5 said:


> Ok, now you don't know what the **** you're talking about. The Spurs wouldn't have any flexibility to get any decent players if the core don't take below market contracts as they have for the last couple of seasons. Yes they drafted well, but you do realize the same players you mention were on their last leg if the Spurs didn't extend that olive branch.


Im not really sure what i have no clue about because this is exactly what i just said.


----------



## Pablo5

FSH said:


> Im not really sure what i have no clue about because this is exactly what i just said.


You must have the wrong post then because i never mention they had flexibility .


----------



## Sir Patchwork

edabomb said:


> I still don't get why everyone thinks Kevin Love is the proven option here.
> 
> Guy has put up insane numbers on terrible teams. He still hasn't played in a game that matters after 6(?) years in the league.


We've seen Kevin Love play against NBA competition for 6 years. We've seen Kevin Love play a complimentary role in the olympics, where he was awesome (12ppg, 8rpg in 17 minutes per game). We know what abilities he has and what he does well at this level. He is really good. The only argument against acquiring him in my opinion is if you think Wiggins is going to be superstar, and sooner than we think.


----------



## FSH

Spurs are a act that no other team can follow so dont compare what they have done to every other team. Not every team can go out and find players no one else wanted and turn them into good role players and draft as well as they can

Cavs dont need cap room/flexibility. They already had a solid team together what they need to do now is sign Allen/Marion and deal Waiters for a Center/Back up PG and keep Tristian Thompson around


----------



## Pablo5

Sir Patchwork said:


> We've seen Kevin Love play against NBA competition for 6 years. We've seen Kevin Love play a complimentary role in the olympics, where he was awesome (12ppg, 8rpg in 17 minutes per game). We know what abilities he has and what he does well at this level. He is really good. The only argument against acquiring him in my opinion is if you think Wiggins is going to be superstar, and sooner than we think.


You also seen him not play in a manful game in his Nba career


----------



## FSH

Sir Patchwork said:


> We've seen Kevin Love play against NBA competition for 6 years. We've seen Kevin Love play a complimentary role in the olympics, where he was awesome (12ppg, 8rpg in 17 minutes per game). We know what abilities he has and what he does well at this level. He is really good. The only argument against acquiring him in my opinion is if you think Wiggins is going to be superstar, and sooner than we think.


See this post make sense. I love how other people keep acting like all the sudden Kevin Love is gonna play against different teams.


----------



## Pablo5

FSH said:


> Spurs are a act that no other team can follow so dont compare what they have done to every other team. Not every team can go out and find players no one else wanted and turn them into good role players and draft as well as they can
> 
> *Cavs dont need cap room/flexibility*. They already had a solid team together what they need to do now is sign Allen/Marion and deal Waiters for a Center/Back up PG and keep Tristian Thompson around


That's false! They said this about Miami and the world saw how weak that roster really was in the Nba Finals. The Spurs had the luxury of going to acquire players like Diaw and Green because of the sacrifices of Duncan, Manu and Parker.


----------



## seifer0406

Pablo5 said:


> Minnesota will have the option that no other club will have and that's one extra year at 20+ million. I don't see anyone turning that down. Especially a guy that just existing his rookie contract


Heres the thing though. If Wiggins is really that good to the point where the Wolves are offering him the max, signing a contract that's 1 year less at 22-23 years old isn't that outrageous. Also factor in the amount of endorsement money that he would make in Canada and the overall improvement of his brand as a Canadian superstar playing in Canada then it's not far apart in terms of money. This is all assuming that he isn't a bust and becomes say, a top 10 player in the league or close to top 10.

Like I said, explain to me how a rookie coming off a rookie contract is different from a player coming off a regular contract. Because we have seen players signing with other teams for a year less (Dwight, Lebron, Lance Stephenson, etc.) I'm not saying that it's the more likely outcome, but to paint it as some outrageous thing is clearly ignoring the facts here.


----------



## e-monk

kbdullah said:


> I think LeBron said that as a way to take a step back from his "not one, not two...not six" statements in Decision I. I think he fully expected to contend as soon as possible.


also I know that when Lebron made this statement this trade hadn't happened 

and do you notice how the heat fan you are responding to is arguing that the 3 star + cap filler role players model wont work? There's a word for that


----------



## e-monk

Pablo5 said:


> Minnesota will have the option that no other club will have and that's one extra year at 20+ million. I don't see anyone turning that down. Especially a guy that just existing his rookie contract


actually we've seen it happen already


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Pablo5 said:


> It's simple you slow retard. They had NO flexibility. Why the hell you think they stuck to signing league min guys. The big three wipe up 75% of the salary cap and left no room for any major move. You're just being a desperate Cavs fan just as you were before 2010.


Lol.

So Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Mike Miller and Chris Anderson weren't major moves? Your logic is about as retarded as the idea behind the "decision" show. 

And desperate fan in 2010? I knew just like a lot of people here probably knew that Lebron was leaving. There's no desperation here. And right now I'm looking at what we got now and I'm seeing trade options we could easily do with the guys we have now and I see that Shawn Marion is leaning towards joining us, and we could still get Ray Allen in the process. If you're telling me that's not flexibility then you really have no clue what you are talking about.



edabomb said:


> I still don't get why everyone thinks Kevin Love is the proven option here.
> 
> Guy has put up insane numbers on terrible teams. He still hasn't played in a game that matters after 6(?) years in the league.


Kevin Love: Third in win shares last season, arguably the best PF in the league for the past three or so years now, the perfect secondary superstar to have play alongside Lebron, proven clutch performer, how the hell is Love not a proven option here? It's been pointed out numerous times now, if you don't get it, then that's too bad. But the fact that you keep bringing up him putting up great stats on terrible teams is idiotic. This is in no way credible logic because it just shows how good of a player Love really is. I've seen it in games before where teams would be a lot more focus on Love than the rest of his teammates and they would more often than not fail. There's a reason why Love's stats are so impressive to begin with.


----------



## seifer0406

It's the same argument people used on Chris Bosh when Bosh was with the Raptors. Called Bosh overrated, good numbers on a shitty team and all that stuff. I remember there was a debate back then about who's a better player between Bosh and Pau Gasol and almost everyone picked Gasol because Gasol was a winner. So 4 more allstar appearances (9 allstar appearances by Bosh to 4 by Pau Gasol) and 2 championships later I would like to see the same debate again. I don't think either changed much as a player, just that people's perception of them have changed greatly because fans are easily swayed by things that have little relevance to their actual value as players.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

seifer0406 said:


> It's the same argument people used on Chris Bosh when Bosh was with the Raptors. Called Bosh overrated, good numbers on a shitty team and all that stuff. I remember there was a debate back then about who's a better player between Bosh and Pau Gasol and almost everyone picked Gasol because Gasol was a winner. So 4 more allstar appearances (9 allstar appearances by Bosh to 4 by Pau Gasol) and 2 championships later I would like to see the same debate again. I don't think either changed much as a player, just that people's perception of them have changed greatly because fans are easily swayed by things that have little relevance to their actual value as players.


It's not even that. People here are simply focusing way too much on the fact that Love has never played a playoff game before and are completely throwing away logic and common sense. They're ignoring what Love has been doing for the past six years now and are ignoring the fact that the reasons for the Timberwolves sucking have little to do with Love and all you have to do is watch the ****ing games to realize it. It's just incredibly stupid logic. 

Love is a top 10, if not, top 5 player in this league. It's idiotic to even suggest that this is a bad trade for Cleveland. It's a great trade for both sides.


----------



## Luke

Why am I reading that Kevin Love is a clutch player? Minny has been awful in close games for years and he's lost like 70% of the NBA games that he has played in.


----------



## Marcus13

XxIrvingxX said:


> I'm sorry but this is total bullshit. Their goal of winning a championship was not set back at all by them from making this trade and you know it, and it's dumb to deny it. Love on this team makes them instant favorites to go to the finals this year, bar none, and they are easily one step closer to winning a title. You're using a moment that Lebron said when he was referring to the team that didn't have Kevin Love on it and him coming there didn't look like a possibility.
> 
> The Cavs winning the finals this year just became their goal this year. They are the clear favorites in the east, and if what someone here said about JJ coming to Cleveland in the trade is true and Cavs can get Marion, they will continue to build up on what is already very good depth for a team with three all stars and they will be a very dangerous team.


So you're telling me that a team with the #2 , #3 , and #4 options never having won a single playoff game is about win a ****in championship? Uh, ok bro.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Marcus13 said:


> So you're telling me that a team with the #2 , #3 , and #4 options never having won a single playoff game is about win a ****in championship? Uh, ok bro.


I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that they are closer to their goal of winning a championship. You on the other hand were trying to say that the Cavaliers acquiring Love gave them less of a chance of doing so, which is complete bullshit, and you know it. 



Luke said:


> Why am I reading that Kevin Love is a clutch player? Minny has been awful in close games for years and he's lost like 70% of the NBA games that he has played in.


How does this in anyway prove Love isn't a clutch player?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Can someone show me the source btw that says that JJ Barea is going to be traded to Cleveland along with Love? I saw someone mention it before but I'm not hearing a lot about it.


----------



## l0st1

Kevin Love is Clutch?

http://www.82games.com/1314/13MIN14.HTM


----------



## JerryWest

Cavs gave up too much, dumb trade.

Could have gotten Love for less and definitely could have kept Wiggins, they basically outbid themselves.

I like this trade a lot more for the Wolves, wouldn't be surprised if they ended up winning more games.


----------



## Pioneer10

Where is the idea the Cavs don't have tremendous flexibility going forward coming from? The salary cap is only a burden if you don't plan to get around it. One reason they gave up on Wiggins is that they were able to keep the Waiters and most of their draft picks.

Wiggins is good prospect but I'm surprised if anyone who watched the summer league or his Kansas year think he's ready for superstardom. His ballhandling and passing are really subpar for a wing. It's going to take him a few years to get the most out of his athleticism.

The Cavs don't want to waste Lebron's 1-2 years of Lebron's prime years waiting for him to develop and they think his ceiling is more Kawhii Leonard then TMac.

On other hand the Cavs still have Waiters who was really good the second half of last year (PER of 17+ post All-Star break) and their multiple picks. The Memphis pick is going to be a lottery pick and the longer Memphis stays good the more protections come off. In addition, they have Haywood's expiring contract next year to take in 10 million of salary regardless of the cap. That's a big trade asset for a contending team (i.e. combine the Memphis pick with ability to eat all that salary and you can get a very talented vet from a team that is failing to live up to expectations)

They Cavs have had an incredible off-season not only have they added Lebron and Love but they added two vets who bring in shooting and defense (Miller and soon to be signed Marion) and didn't give up most of their future assets to get it done.. They are setup to win and win later. This is the exact opposite of Miami which let go of all of their own picks and didn't have ways to circumvent the caps like the Cavs do


----------



## Wade County

We let go of our picks because we were forced to by James and Bosh, in order to give them that extra year on their contracts that neither used...you got assets back for losing James, maybe not much but something. We got jack shit - in fact we still owe you a first rounder this season assuming we make the playoffs.

Cavs had to do this deal. Like you said, Lebron is in win now mode - you gotta pull out all the stops. The faux 'coming home' narrative is kinda tired though, LBJ knew this team would be stacked - tell it like it is, you went and formed a new big 3.


----------



## Pablo5

XxIrvingxX said:


> Lol.
> 
> *So Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Mike Miller and Chris Anderson weren't major moves? Your logic is about as retarded as the idea behind the "decision" show. *And desperate fan in 2010? I knew just like a lot of people here probably knew that Lebron was leaving. There's no desperation here. And right now I'm looking at what we got now and I'm seeing trade options we could easily do with the guys we have now and I see that Shawn Marion is leaning towards joining us, and we could still get Ray Allen in the process. If you're telling me that's not flexibility then you really have no clue what you are talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> Kevin Love: Third in win shares last season, arguably the best PF in the league for the past three or so years now, the perfect secondary superstar to have play alongside Lebron, proven clutch performer, how the hell is Love not a proven option here? It's been pointed out numerous times now, if you don't get it, then that's too bad. But the fact that you keep bringing up him putting up great stats on terrible teams is idiotic. This is in no way credible logic because it just shows how good of a player Love really is. I've seen it in games before where teams would be a lot more focus on Love than the rest of his teammates and they would more often than not fail. There's a reason why Love's stats are so impressive to begin with.


Again youre missing every point because your blind by the ballsack of Bron. All the players you named were signed at discounted contracts only because the big 3 took below market contracts. For the same reason they Heat had to let Miller and Anthony walk to avoid the escalated tax as the Big Three contracts grew per season. For the same reason this offseason the Heat was only able to sign MLE and biannual contracts because they *had no flexibilty*. 

The best PF for the last three seasons to have never won 40 games.


----------



## RollWithEm

JerryWest said:


> Could have gotten Love for less and definitely could have kept Wiggins, they basically outbid themselves.


They actually needed to include Wiggins to outbid Golden State and Chicago.


----------



## MemphisX

Poor Kyrie...get ready for the Westbrook treatment. Everything will be your fault.


----------



## GNG

Marcus13 said:


> The Cavs aren't set up to win a championship this year with or without Kevin Love. It's not even there goal. As LeBron said, they are a long ways off from that goal and it's going to be a long, trying process. You need flexibility to develop that kind of team. This move set them back from that ultimate goal.


Their goal.


----------



## Geaux Tigers

MemphisX said:


> Poor Kyrie...get ready for the Westbrook treatment. Everything will be your fault.


He has two jobs. Get the ball past half court and pass to LeBron.


----------



## e-monk

seifer0406 said:


> It's the same argument people used on Chris Bosh when Bosh was with the Raptors. Called Bosh overrated, good numbers on a shitty team and all that stuff. I remember there was a debate back then about who's a better player between Bosh and Pau Gasol and almost everyone picked Gasol because Gasol was a winner. So 4 more allstar appearances (9 allstar appearances by Bosh to 4 by Pau Gasol) and 2 championships later I would like to see the same debate again. I don't think either changed much as a player, just that people's perception of them have changed greatly because fans are easily swayed by things that have little relevance to their actual value as players.


people did the same thing with Gasol before he joined the lakers - great stats but the Grizz only won 22 games etc

but Gasol _was_ better than Bosh, All Star nods for PF/Cs were harder to come by in the West (where Timmy, KG and Dirk used to roam) and as a 2nd banana Pau played a much more significant role in winning his two titles than CB did his as a 3rd


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Pablo5 said:


> Again youre missing every point because your blind by the ballsack of Bron. All the players you named were signed at discounted contracts only because the big 3 took below market contracts. For the same reason they Heat had to let Miller and Anthony walk to avoid the escalated tax as the Big Three contracts grew per season. For the same reason this offseason the Heat was only able to sign MLE and biannual contracts because they *had no flexibilty*.
> 
> The best PF for the last three seasons to have never won 40 games.


Do you not understand what the term flexibility means? If they were able to afford those players with those kinds of contracts, that's flexibility. 

And what do you mean Miami had no flexibility this off season? Their three best players opted out of their contracts. They had plenty of room to sign other players. No one wanted to join. Even then, they still managed to get a few players. You have no clue what you're talking about.


----------



## Pablo5

XxIrvingxX said:


> Do you not understand what the term flexibility means? If they were able to afford those players with those kinds of contracts, that's flexibility.
> 
> And what do you mean Miami had no flexibility this off season? Their three best players opted out of their contracts. They had plenty of room to sign other players. No one wanted to join. Even then, they still managed to get a few players. You have no clue what you're talking about.


Youre proving my point idiot. They had room only because Wade, Bron and Bosh took discounted contracts (15M i believe). As the Big 3 contracts grew per year Miami released Miller and Anthony. 

Yes, the Big 3 opted out, but nobody seeking a deal will take the contract that Miami could provide. Now do the math. If Wade was seeking 12-15, Bosh seeking the same and Bron at the max, what do that leave the Heat with if the number being 58m or so? That's not counting Napier rookie deal and Cole being under contract.

Same with Cleveland Bron (at the max), Irvin (at the max) and Love extension (that may be near the max) will put Cleveland in the same boat in the next 2-3 seasons. Thompson and Waiters will be gone after there rookie deals, only because Cleveland will not be able to keep them. So now Cleveland will stuck to sign MLE players just like Miami.


----------



## Pablo5

e-monk said:


> people did the same thing with Gasol before he joined the lakers - great stats but the Grizz only won 22 games etc
> 
> but Gasol _was_ better than Bosh, All Star nods for PF/Cs were harder to come by in the West (where Timmy, KG and Dirk used to roam) and as a 2nd banana Pau played a much more significant role in winning his two titles than CB did his as a 3rd


Gasol had more impact on the Lakers winning than Bosh in four years in Miami


----------



## Pablo5

Geaux Tigers said:


> He has two jobs. Get the ball past half court and pass to LeBron.


The Norris Cole treament LMAO


----------



## Hibachi!

Cleveland better pray the new CBA has a significantly higher cap. Although guess what, LeBron will be renewing his contract and will eat even more cap.


----------



## Jamel Irief

So I apologize if it was listed two pages back or something, but what are the actual terms of the deal?


----------



## Pablo5

Hibachi! said:


> Cleveland better pray the new CBA has a significantly higher cap. Although guess what, LeBron will be renewing his contract and will eat even more cap.


This is exactly what im talking about. Irvin is just blind. Even if the projected number is 72m, the three contracts of Bron, Irvin and Love will eat that up pretty quickly


----------



## UD40

Jamel Irief said:


> So I apologize if it was listed two pages back or something, but what are the actual terms of the deal?


Minny Gets:
Wiggins, Thad Young, 1st Rd Pick (Cle)

Philly Gets:
Anthony Bennet

Clev gets:
Love

There's likely smaller pieces involved, but these are the notable names.


----------



## Hyperion

They got through the only hurdle I could see that was a no go for the trade and that was love's contract situation. Now that he's agreed to an extension, the Cavs are a championship team right now and will be an elite team even if LeBron leaves. That is the best starting four in the east by far and with LeBron it's the best five man unit in the league. The addition Jones, Miller, and possibly maMarion will give them elite depth as well. I am liking the construction if this team more than the 10 Heat team.


----------



## Pioneer10

Hibachi! said:


> Cleveland better pray the new CBA has a significantly higher cap. Although guess what, LeBron will be renewing his contract and will eat even more cap.


The cap will be higher plus Gilbert has always been willing to pay the tax.
In any case if they have to let go of a guy like Waiters or Thompson they still have a lot of flexibility: Haywood's expiring deal, Memphis's likely lotter pick, the Cavs own draft pick should be able to get roleplayers or serve as trade bait.

Wiggins is a talented prospect but by giving him up the Cavs were able to become a contender and still maintain a significant amount of flexibility. This is very different then what happened to Miami and even teams like Boston.


----------



## Pioneer10

MemphisX said:


> Poor Kyrie...get ready for the Westbrook treatment. Everything will be your fault.



If he doesn't improve his defense, he's got no one to blame but himself.
Both Waiters and Delly are much better defenders then him and are good playmakers so he's going to have improve on this if he wants to keep his minutes (Saying someone is a better defender then Irving isn't saying much you can be below average and be better at defense then Irving. He makes Love look like a DPOY).

I expect he'll be better though (Love has become an average defender IMO which is a lot better then he used to be) and in terms of offensive skillset he's got it all: should be able to thrive if he learns how to play off the ball even a little bit


----------



## e-monk

Pablo5 said:


> Gasol had more impact on the Lakers winning than Bosh in four years in Miami


yep
in just the finals the stats look like this

Pau
2009 19ppg 9rpg vs Dwight
2010 19ppg 12rpg vs KG

Bosh
2012 14ppg 9rpg vs KPerkins
2013 12ppg 9rpg vs Timmy


----------



## e-monk

Hibachi! said:


> Cleveland better pray the new CBA has a significantly higher cap. Although guess what, LeBron will be renewing his contract and will eat even more cap.


most projections say the cap will rise significantly over the next few years largely due to the upcoming renewal of TV contracts


----------



## Pablo5

e-monk said:


> most projections say the cap will rise significantly over the next few years largely due to the upcoming renewal of TV contracts


Even so Lebron has set himself up to get every dollar he can by holding the Cavs hostage at the same time.


----------



## JerryWest

RollWithEm said:


> They actually needed to include Wiggins to outbid Golden State and Chicago.


Last I saw Chicago was offering Gibson and Jimmy Butler. So considering that was the lead alternative offer, I would say the Cavs are idiots.

Golden State didn't ever have Klay formally available. I don't know what their best formal offer was, but considering Bulls were reported as one of the best offers with Taj and butler, it couldn't have been too good.


----------



## Pablo5

Pioneer10 said:


> The cap will be higher plus Gilbert has always been willing to pay the tax.
> In any case if they have to let go of a guy like Waiters or Thompson they still have a lot of flexibility: Haywood's expiring deal, Memphis's likely lotter pick, the Cavs own draft pick should be able to get roleplayers or serve as trade bait.
> 
> Wiggins is a talented prospect but by giving him up the Cavs were able to become a contender and still maintain a significant amount of flexibility. This is very different then what happened to Miami and even teams like Boston.


Isnt there starting C on a one year deal which they will probably extend him around 10-12m a season. Paying the tax during the previous CBA's is nothing like the tax penalty of today


----------



## Pablo5

JerryWest said:


> Last I saw Chicago was offering Gibson and Jimmy Butler. So considering that was the lead alternative offer,* I would say the Cavs are idiots.*Golden State didn't ever have Klay formally available. I don't know what their best formal offer was, but considering Bulls were reported as one of the best offers with Taj and butler, it couldn't have been too good.


How so they have traded a prospect with potential. Right now the deal was for the better. Wiggins has a tough road ahead. If he's not All-Star material by year 2 everyone wouldve forgot about this trade.


----------



## e-monk

Pablo5 said:


> Even so Lebron has set himself up to get every dollar he can by holding the Cavs hostage at the same time.


there's still a max cap AND he's still worth much more than that max cap figure to any team willing to pay him 

why is it wrong for the best player in the game to ask for the max?


----------



## Pablo5

e-monk said:


> there's still a max cap AND he's still worth much more than that max cap figure to any team willing to pay him
> 
> why is it wrong for the best player in the game to ask for the max?


He's worth every penny there is no argument about that, but wouldnt that be going against every thing he said about the whole flexibility piece. If he's taking every penny the team has to offer how can the team create the flexibilty he wants?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Pablo5 said:


> Youre proving my point idiot. They had room only because Wade, Bron and Bosh took discounted contracts (15M i believe). As the Big 3 contracts grew per year Miami released Miller and Anthony.
> 
> Yes, the Big 3 opted out, but nobody seeking a deal will take the contract that Miami could provide. Now do the math. If Wade was seeking 12-15, Bosh seeking the same and Bron at the max, what do that leave the Heat with if the number being 58m or so? That's not counting Napier rookie deal and Cole being under contract.
> 
> Same with Cleveland Bron (at the max), Irvin (at the max) and Love extension (that may be near the max) will put Cleveland in the same boat in the next 2-3 seasons. Thompson and Waiters will be gone after there rookie deals, only because Cleveland will not be able to keep them. So now Cleveland will stuck to sign MLE players just like Miami.


I'm not proving your point at all. You just tried to argue that Miami had no flexibility. I just pointed out why they did. Before that, you tried saying the cavaliers had no flexibility, and you were clearly wrong on that. Nothing you have been arguing has been correct, so what is your point? That you're clueless and know nothing about basketball?


----------



## Pablo5

XxIrvingxX said:


> I'm not proving your point at all. You just tried to argue that Miami had no flexibility. I just pointed out why they did. Before that, you tried saying the cavaliers had no flexibility, and you were clearly wrong on that. Nothing you have been arguing has been correct, so what is your point? That you're clueless and know nothing about basketball?


You have no clue how contracts escalate per season do you? *Name one player picked up that wasnt a vet player from 2011/12-14. Go ahead ill wait.*
Once the Cavs come to the contracts of Thompson and Waiters then you will see how contracts and the cap works.


----------



## Marcus13

Pablo5 said:


> He's worth every penny there is no argument about that, but wouldnt that be going against every thing he said about the whole flexibility piece. If he's taking every penny the team has to offer how can the team create the flexibilty he wants?


By not overpaying other players like Kevin Love.


----------



## Pablo5

Marcus13 said:


> By not overpaying other players like Kevin Love.


What do you think his deal will be?

4 yrs @ 65M?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Pablo5 said:


> You also seen him not play in a manful game in his Nba career


Based on your arbitrary definition of meaningful.


----------



## e-monk

Pablo5 said:


> What do you think his deal will be?
> 
> 4 yrs @ 65M?


didn't they already report [email protected]?


----------



## Marcus13

Pablo5 said:


> What do you think his deal will be?
> 
> 4 yrs @ 65M?


Yeah right bro, that'd be perfectly fine. More like 5 years 120 mil


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Pablo5 said:


> You have no clue how contracts escalate per season do you? *Name one player picked up that wasnt a vet player from 2011/12-14. Go ahead ill wait.*
> Once the Cavs come to the contracts of Thompson and Waiters then you will see how contracts and the cap works.


Greg Oden.

And this doesn't have anything to do with what you were originally arguing, don't try to change the subject.


----------



## RollWithEm

JerryWest said:


> Last I saw Chicago was offering Gibson and Jimmy Butler. So considering that was the lead alternative offer, I would say the Cavs are idiots.
> 
> Golden State didn't ever have Klay formally available. I don't know what their best formal offer was, but considering Bulls were reported as one of the best offers with Taj and butler, it couldn't have been too good.


Taj/Butler/Mirotic/Pick(s) and Barnes/DLee/Draymond are better offers than what the Cavs could have put together without including Wiggins (or Kyrie).


----------



## cima

Well this confirms even further that the Cavs will be the most used team in NBA 2K15.


----------



## Pablo5

XxIrvingxX said:


> Greg Oden.
> 
> And this doesn't have anything to do with what you were originally arguing, don't try to change the subject.


LMAO

Oden signed for 1m......

Again im sure you can find that gem that the Heat signed after the first year of the Big 3 signings


----------



## JerryWest

RollWithEm said:


> Taj/Butler/Mirotic/Pick(s) and Barnes/DLee/Draymond are better offers than what the Cavs could have put together without including Wiggins (or Kyrie).


I disagree. All of the offers you are mentioning look like huge piles of dung to me.


----------



## Pablo5

e-monk said:


> didn't they already report [email protected]?


LMAO, there goes any wiggle room


----------



## Pablo5

Sir Patchwork said:


> Based on your arbitrary definition of meaningful.


It's called the attack of a two year old, lol.


----------



## Pablo5

cima said:


> Well this confirms even further that the Cavs will be the most used team in NBA 2K15.


Any team that Bron wouldve went to it wouldve been the same cheesy ass treatment.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

cima said:


> Well this confirms even further that the Cavs will be the most used team in NBA 2K15.


Not even that. Think about it. The first overall pick itself wasn't traded before the draft, so unless they make it so that the team you end up on is the timberwolves, you could end up on the cavaliers in your rookie year in myplayer if you get picked first overall.


----------



## JerryWest

Wiggins is so much more valuable alone than any of the other offers.

Cavs should have gotten extra assets in addition to Love to make up for the difference.


----------



## MemphisX

Sir Patchwork said:


> Based on your arbitrary definition of meaningful.


Nothing arbitrary about it. 

You name the meaningful game Kevin Love has played.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Pablo5 said:


> LMAO
> 
> Oden signed for 1m......
> 
> Again im sure you can find that gem that the Heat signed after the first year of the Big 3 signings


How does what he got paid have anything to do with this? You asked for a non veteran player, you said nothing about the contract. Or are you not smart enough to understand the difference?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Pablo5 said:


> LMAO, there goes any wiggle room


All you need to do is use common sense and read the last two pages to understand why the cavaliers will still have "wiggle" room.


----------



## Drizzy

JerryWest said:


> Last I saw Chicago was offering Gibson and Jimmy Butler. So considering that was the lead alternative offer, I would say the Cavs are idiots.
> 
> *Golden State didn't ever have Klay formally available.* I don't know what their best formal offer was, but considering Bulls were reported as one of the best offers with Taj and butler, it couldn't have been too good.


I'm not 100% sure I believe it, but ESPN is pretty certain that Klay was available in some sort of deal. Stephen A and those guys have been bashing Flip Saunders almost everyday for making Golden State wait and wait until it was too late. Love apparently had the Warriors and Bulls as his preferred destinations originally. Then when LBJ announced he was going back to CLE, Love said he would only sign there. Obviously Klay isn't getting moved for a 1 year rental.

At least that's the story being given out by First Take and other shows like it.


----------



## e-monk

Drizzy said:


> I
> Then when LBJ announced he was going back to CLE,* Love said he would only sign there*.


did he say "only"? I know he expressed interest/willingness to sign in Cleveland but don't remember him saying he wouldn't sign anywhere else


----------



## Drizzy

e-monk said:


> did he say "only"? I know he expressed interest/willingness to sign in Cleveland but don't remember him saying he wouldn't sign anywhere else


First Take (Again, Stephen A) has been saying it was "only" and that he forced the Wolves' hand.

Him and Skip also claim it's a horrid deal for the Wolves though. :jr:


----------



## JerryWest

Gibson and Jimmy Butler is such a lame offer that I find it hard to believe it would be considered a top tier offer and best alternative offer if Klay was actually ever offered.

That's why I don't believe it. If Klay was ever actually offered, it's laughable that a Gibson and Butler combo would ever be considered or mentioned.

This is also why I think it was unnecessary to offer Wiggins. The Cavs overpaid and outbid themselves.


----------



## RollWithEm

JerryWest said:


> I disagree. All of the offers you are mentioning look like huge piles of dung to me.


Everyone on the Cavs not named Irving or Wiggins would still be worse.


----------



## RollWithEm

JerryWest said:


> Gibson and Jimmy Butler is such a lame offer that I find it hard to believe it would be considered a top tier offer and best alternative offer if Klay was actually ever offered.


Mirotic would obviously be the best player in the deal. There was a spirited debate right on these very boards about whether or not he is a better prospect at this point that Andrew Wiggins. Gibson and Butler are the complimentary pieces.



> If Klay was ever actually offered, it's laughable that a Gibson and Butler combo would ever be considered or mentioned.


Klay was never offered. Kerr will not move him for Love.



> This is also why I think it was unnecessary to offer Wiggins. The Cavs overpaid and outbid themselves.


They actually outbid two other similar offers from Golden State and Chicago. Hmmm... deja vu.


----------



## e-monk

Drizzy said:


> First Take (Again, Stephen A) has been saying it was "only" and that he forced the Wolves' hand.
> 
> Him and Skip also claim it's a horrid deal for the Wolves though. :jr:


well if Stephen A said that then there's no chance it's true, is there?


----------



## RollWithEm

Drizzy said:


> I'm not 100% sure I believe it, but ESPN is pretty certain that Klay was available in some sort of deal.


It was reported by multiple other sources that Klay was never made available for Love.


----------



## RollWithEm

e-monk said:


> I know he expressed interest/willingness to sign in Cleveland but don't remember him saying he wouldn't sign anywhere else


I got the impression that he would sign (a max extension) basically anywhere that gave him a really good chance to win championships.


----------



## e-monk

Pups wanted Klay but GSW did not want to move him was the story I heard


----------



## Pablo5

XxIrvingxX said:


> How does what he got paid have anything to do with this? You asked for a non veteran player, you said nothing about the contract. Or are you not smart enough to understand the difference?


Now i see youre really desperate again . Oden was signed for the min which for a mil and change. 

You have yet to show me a key signing after the big 3 was signed. Again that's the sign of no flexibilty and if you cant understand that youre a bigger fool than i thought.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Pablo5 said:


> It's called the attack of a two year old, lol.


You deflect well.


----------



## Hibachi!

A higher cap isn't going to give any team more financial flexibility. They're just going to pay players a higher salary. Someone with $15 million in cap space is going to give $12 of it to a Harrison Barnes or a Bradley Beal that money and set the new standard for what players are going to get paid.

Even with the cap raised there is no way in hell the Cavs will be under it enough to be able to sign a free agent that isn't the MLE. 

That all being said, this is NOT the same as the Heat's Big 3 or the Celtic's Big 3. The Celtics had an aging big 3. And Dwyane Wade really broke down for the Heat. 

The Cavs have a young core of guys, and will just be using their free agent signings to sign a bunch of older vets to help out. The Heat had a bunch of old guys and just kept bringing in old guys. 

And don't forget that the Heat weren't unsuccesful. They went to 4 straight finals and won 2. They also probably would have gone to finals numbers 5 and 6 if LeBron stayed. The Cavs are in a great position to have a sustainable team.

But it's all a matter of how well Love steps up to a stage that he's never been on.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

MemphisX said:


> Nothing arbitrary about it.
> 
> You name the meaningful game Kevin Love has played.


Not that "meaningful" games are the measure of whether a person can play basketball or not, but Love has carried the Timberwolves in victories over very good teams. Why are these games meaningless? Because they're regular season? 

The problem with that is that people say the same thing about players if they don't get out of the first round, second round, conference finals, and even finals. 

People take that rationale and abuse it all the way up until the point where a player wins a championship. There were actually people who questioned LeBron James abilities before he won a championship, as if those abilities weren't blatantly obvious. 

It's a slippery slope and absolutely arbitrary.


----------



## Drizzy

RollWithEm said:


> It was reported by multiple other sources that Klay was never made available for Love.



This makes sense, but I was just surprised that they were throwing Saunders under the bus everyday on their show for "passing up on Klay".


Sent from Verticalsports.com Free App


----------



## MemphisX

Sir Patchwork said:


> Not that "meaningful" games are the measure of whether a person can play basketball or not, but Love has carried the Timberwolves in victories over very good teams. Why are these games meaningless? Because they're regular season?
> 
> The problem with that is that people say the same thing about players if they don't get out of the first round, second round, conference finals, and even finals.
> 
> People take that rationale and abuse it all the way up until the point where a player wins a championship. There were actually people who questioned LeBron James abilities before he won a championship, as if those abilities weren't blatantly obvious.
> 
> It's a slippery slope and absolutely arbitrary.


This is total BS.

Nobody was questioning LeBron's ability. They were questioning his ability to win a championship and his comparison with MJ.

When people say Kevin Love is a superstar that means that the next six years of his career could go like the first six years and your opinion of him would not change. I do not believe that for a second.

Also, there is a reason why certain games are featured on TV. There is simply a different level of play between Okc vs. San Antonio and Okc vs. Minnesota in the regular season. It can't be denied.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Pablo5 said:


> Now i see youre really desperate again . Oden was signed for the min which for a mil and change.


That doesn't make Oden. He's 26 years old and has played around 120 games in his career. A moron could figure it out. 

And I'm not being desperate, I'm literally doing what you asked. 



Pablo5 said:


> You have no clue how contracts escalate per season do you? *Name one player picked up that wasnt a vet player from 2011/12-14. Go ahead ill wait.*
> Once the Cavs come to the contracts of Thompson and Waiters then you will see how contracts and the cap works.


This is your post. You are asking me to point out a non veteran player that they signed during the big three era. I did just that. Since then you've been coming up with irrelevant bullshit to make up for the fact that you just made yourself look like an idiot because...well, you're an idiot. Own up to your mistakes already and just move on. You're not making things any better for yourself. 



Pablo5 said:


> You have yet to show me a key signing after the big 3 was signed. Again that's the sign of no flexibilty and if you cant understand that youre a bigger fool than i thought.


Shane Battier, Mike Miller, Ray Allen and Chris Anderson were all key signings during the big three era. There is no possible way Miami would have won any of their championships while Lebron was around if these guys weren't signed. I don't know what part of this you aren't understanding. Do you operate in this mindset where roleplayers are useless? I guess Danny Green and Gary Neal aren't valuable to the Spurs right?


----------



## Da Grinch

Sir Patchwork said:


> Not that "meaningful" games are the measure of whether a person can play basketball or not, but Love has carried the Timberwolves in victories over very good teams. Why are these games meaningless? Because they're regular season?
> 
> The problem with that is that people say the same thing about players if they don't get out of the first round, second round, conference finals, and even finals.
> 
> People take that rationale and abuse it all the way up until the point where a player wins a championship. There were actually people who questioned LeBron James abilities before he won a championship, as if those abilities weren't blatantly obvious.
> 
> It's a slippery slope and absolutely arbitrary.


the simple truth of the matter is this most teams that win lets say in excess of 50 games win with defense .

its extremely difficult to win with defense if your 4 isn't good at it , generally power forwards are pretty important in regards to team defense.

its really not about meaningful games but more about what you bring to your team.

this pretty much means a kevin love team more than likely has to beat you with offense and its been done before , defense deficient power forwards have led their teams to very good seasons (amar'e stoudamire comes to mind , dirk nowitzki ,some would say Carmelo Anthony led his team to a 54 win season in 2012-13 as a mediocre defending 4) 

but that's where the similarities end amar'e was incredibly efficient as a sun in all of his 5 full seasons alongside steve nash his TS% was at least .615 with a high of .656, significantly above the efficiency love is putting up couple that with nash's similar efficiency and they could actually break the odds and outshoot people 

LeBron is at that level of efficiency so maybe it could work in the regular season but in the playoffs defense tends to be more important ...much like the suns found out.

Carmelo and dirk are players their teams run their offense through and create mismatches and better shots for others , love isn't really used that way, and certainly wont be playing alongside LeBron and kyrie 

my guess is if everyone is basically done as of now the cavs can get through the east and then get hammered by whoever makes it through the west .

but I think eventually the bulls with fix their roster imbalance and trade either mirotic or Gibson for a high quality 2 way wing player ...if rose stays healthy that should be enough to beat the cavs come playoff time.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

MemphisX said:


> This is total BS.
> 
> Nobody was questioning LeBron's ability. They were questioning his ability to win a championship and his comparison with MJ.
> 
> When people say Kevin Love is a superstar that means that the next six years of his career could go like the first six years and your opinion of him would not change. I do not believe that for a second.
> 
> *Also, there is a reason why certain games are featured on TV. There is simply a different level of play between Okc vs. San Antonio and Okc vs. Minnesota in the regular season. It can't be denied.*


So if games aren't on ESPN they're suddenly meaningless?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Da Grinch said:


> the simple truth of the matter is this most teams that win lets say in excess of 50 games win with defense .
> 
> *its extremely difficult to win with defense if your 4 isn't good at it , generally power forwards are pretty important in regards to team defense.*
> 
> its really not about meaningful games but more about what you bring to your team.
> 
> this pretty much means a kevin love team more than likely has to beat you with offense and its been done before , defense deficient power forwards have led their teams to very good seasons (amar'e stoudamire comes to mind , dirk nowitzki ,some would say Carmelo Anthony led his team to a 54 win season in 2012-13 as a mediocre defending 4)
> 
> but that's where the similarities end amar'e was incredibly efficient as a sun in all of his 5 full seasons alongside steve nash his TS% was at least .615 with a high of .656, significantly above the efficiency love is putting up couple that with nash's similar efficiency and they could actually break the odds and outshoot people
> 
> LeBron is at that level of efficiency so maybe it could work in the regular season but in the playoffs defense tends to be more important ...much like the suns found out.
> 
> Carmelo and dirk are players their teams run their offense through and create mismatches and better shots for others , love isn't really used that way, and certainly wont be playing alongside LeBron and kyrie
> 
> my guess is if everyone is basically done as of now the cavs can get through the east and then get hammered by whoever makes it through the west .
> 
> but I think eventually the bulls with fix their roster imbalance and trade either mirotic or Gibson for a high quality 2 way wing player ...if rose stays healthy that should be enough to beat the cavs come playoff time.


Not really. I mean, yes, but it's happened before. 

The Mavericks managed to have multiple 50 win seasons despite Dirk's shortcomings defensively, as did the Suns. In fact their shortcomings in the postseason were largely due to bad coaching, injuries, match up problems and Dwayne Wade superman punching everything in his path in the 2006 finals. It all depends on what you have built around those weaknesses.

Edit: Wow, the one part of your post I didn't read ends up mimicking what I said.


----------



## e-monk

Hibachi! said:


> A higher cap isn't going to give any team more financial flexibility.




If you are locking guys into long term max contracts at the current cap figure (as is the case with Love) and the cap goes up significantly over the next few seasons their deals become increasingly beneficial and equate to added flexibility

max contracts function as a % of the cap (with his time in the league Love can earn 25% of the cap, I think, he's right at the cusp having just completed his 6th season and 7 years in the league equals a 30% max) so if you give Love 25% of the cap now and the cap jumps significantly he will be taking up a smaller percentage of the overall team salary figure 

so in fact signing him to long term now even at max money is actually not a bad idea since you know revenues are going to jump

now in the case of Lebron you figure he will represent 30% of salary cap regardless and if he keeps working short term deals and taking max this wont change dramatically - it's going to cost you 30% of your cap to keep the best player in the league on your team, oh well

and the cap is going to jump - it went up just 1m over 4 seasons but this summer went up 5m and they haven't renegotiated the TV contracts yet


----------



## XxIrvingxX

http://grantland.com/features/kevin-love-lebron-james-trade-minnesota-timberwolves/

Very good article that's basically debunked 90% of the anti-Love arguments here.


----------



## Da Grinch

XxIrvingxX said:


> http://grantland.com/features/kevin-love-lebron-james-trade-minnesota-timberwolves/
> 
> Very good article that's basically debunked 90% of the anti-Love arguments here.


the article tried to correlate barkley to love while acknowledging that obviously barkley was better....

there were major differences, teams ran their offense through barkley , in fact the 5 second back down rule was in part because of him.

and even as the hub of an offense he was able to be the most efficient player in the league ....love does not have that kind of ability , he largely acts as a finisher 

barkley makes people better around him because of the pressure he puts on defenses ....love does not 

barkley while not being a great defender by any reasonable criteria could at times make his imprint on a game defensively through steals or a block ...love does not .

stats are nice but winning and what you bring to a game matters more than anything.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

MemphisX said:


> When people say Kevin Love is a superstar that means that the next six years of his career could go like the first six years and your opinion of him would not change. I do not believe that for a second.


We'll see. If you're on record as saying Kevin Love will be a failure in Cleveland because of his inability to impact "meaningful" games, then we can agree to disagree and revisit this thread later.


----------



## MemphisX

Sir Patchwork said:


> We'll see. If you're on record as saying Kevin Love will be a failure in Cleveland because of his inability to impact "meaningful" games, then we can agree to disagree and revisit this thread later.


You are purposely acting like you lack comprehension, same as Irving. 

You know what I meant.

You are not confused.


Also, don't be arbitrary...what do you define as "failure". LeBron is bonafide. So going by what people in this thread have been saying about Love and his impact, I would have to compare them with MJ/Pippen and Shaq/Kobe. Now if you don't think that is where they should be compared then I will have to say a lot of people are BSing on the Kevin Love superstar thing.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt

Which power forwards would have led Minny to the playoffs the last few years?


----------



## Tom

Keving Love made that team way better than it should have been. They were an injury riddled team of reasonably talented players with a short bench. 

Saying Love isn't a great player is like Ricky Rubio asking for a max contract.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

MemphisX said:


> You are purposely acting like you lack comprehension, same as Irving.
> 
> You know what I meant.
> 
> You are not confused.
> 
> 
> Also, don't be arbitrary...what do you define as "failure". LeBron is bonafide. So going by what people in this thread have been saying about Love and his impact, I would have to compare them with MJ/Pippen and Shaq/Kobe. Now if you don't think that is where they should be compared then I will have to say a lot of people are BSing on the Kevin Love superstar thing.


Then what do you mean? Because right now you are not making any sense. Why should a guy be banned from having superstar status despite him obviously being a top ten player in this league simply because he's been stuck on a bad team his whole career and couldn't make the playoffs in a stacked conference? A guy who is third in the NBA in win shares on a team that couldn't even win 40 games is most definitely a superstar. So far him not making the playoffs is the only argument you have. It's idiotic logic.


----------



## RollWithEm

Da Grinch said:


> the article tried to correlate barkley to love while acknowledging that obviously barkley was better....
> 
> there were major differences, teams ran their offense through barkley , in fact the 5 second back down rule was in part because of him.
> 
> and even as the hub of an offense he was able to be the most efficient player in the league ....love does not have that kind of ability , he largely acts as a finisher
> 
> barkley makes people better around him because of the pressure he puts on defenses ....love does not
> 
> barkley while not being a great defender by any reasonable criteria could at times make his imprint on a game defensively through steals or a block ...love does not .
> 
> stats are nice but winning and what you bring to a game matters more than anything.


So Love is definitely not Barkley good. That doesn't mean he's not a top 15 player in this league. If prime Barkley were dropped into the league right now, he'd be a top 5 player.


----------



## Drizzy

e-monk said:


> did he say "only"? I know he expressed interest/willingness to sign in Cleveland but don't remember him saying he wouldn't sign anywhere else


 @RollWithEm

*EDIT:* Didn't notice this before...watch 11:45. Answers the Klay question directly. Sure seems certain about it.

Here's one of the many videos of SAS reporting Love would only sign in Cleveland (1:14) and mentioning the offer of Klay, Barnes, and Lee etc. (2:23).


----------



## Sir Patchwork

MemphisX said:


> You are purposely acting like you lack comprehension, same as Irving.
> 
> You know what I meant.
> 
> You are not confused.
> 
> 
> Also, don't be arbitrary...what do you define as "failure". LeBron is bonafide. So going by what people in this thread have been saying about Love and his impact, I would have to compare them with MJ/Pippen and Shaq/Kobe. Now if you don't think that is where they should be compared then I will have to say a lot of people are BSing on the Kevin Love superstar thing.


So if Love doesn't play like Kobe or Pippen in their prime (both top 5 players) then he isn't a superstar? Maybe the root of our disagreement is the vagueness of the word superstar. In my view, Love is not as good as a prime Pippen or Kobe, but he is a top 10 player and the 2nd best PF. Where do you rank Kevin Love as a player? Top 10? Top 20? This will probably provide a better idea of the disconnect in our view. Maybe we're not that far apart. 

Failure to me would be if his scoring, rebounding and passing abilities didn't translate against all the teams that will now apparently be trying harder when they play him. If he averaged less than 18-20ppg, 12-13rpg and 3-4apg I'd say he underachieved, assuming he is playing at least 36 minutes per game.


----------



## PauloCatarino

RollWithEm said:


> So Love is definitely not Barkley good. That doesn't mean he's not a top 15 player in this league.


Kevin Love will absolutely THRIVE on playing with Lebron and Kyrie. It's dumb to discuss if he was, or wasn't a "superstar" on the Wolves, or if he "made his teammates better" or not. 
He is gonna play 2nd-fiddle. He is a good scorer from all over the court and a fantastic rebounder. He will fit right in.
And, considering Lebron James doesn't care for defensive rebounds, i'd bet Love will get at least 5 apg on defensive rebounds and hitting a streaking James....



> If prime Barkley were dropped into the league right now, he'd be a top 5 player.


He'd be the best player in the league (at least on offense).


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Question to you guys: How much better does this trade make Lebron offensively in your opinions? Having three 3-point shooters out there at the same time along with Varejao who has developed a bit of a mid range jumper is going to open up the floor completely and you've got three different players in that starting line up who are capable of driving the paint and passing out to a shooter. Lebron's shooting ability has improved significantly over the years, what do you guys see happening in regards to his PPG? FG%? 3PT%?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

XxIrvingxX said:


> Question to you guys: How much better does this trade make Lebron offensively in your opinions? Having three 3-point shooters out there at the same time along with Varejao who has developed a bit of a mid range jumper is going to open up the floor completely and you've got three different players in that starting line up who are capable of driving the paint and passing out to a shooter. Lebron's shooting ability has improved significantly over the years, what do you guys see happening in regards to his PPG? FG%? 3PT%?


I think his best statistical seasons are behind him.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Sir Patchwork said:


> I think his best statistical seasons are behind him.


I don't know, he had a insane season in his third year with Miami, if he gives more effort defensively compared to last year we could see another insane season from him statistically. I think he's got another MVP season left within him.


----------



## Headliner

I see Lebron getting guys open through penetration (assists) moreso than his point stats being better.


----------



## Dissonance

Get ready @Marcus13, Ray Allen is coming.


----------



## Drizzy

Dissonance said:


> Get ready @Marcus13, Ray Allen is coming.


SportsCenter ‏@SportsCenter 1h

THIS JUST IN: Ray Allen says he will return to the NBA, which team he'll play w/ is undecided. (via @Chris_Broussard) 

:diss:


----------



## Dissonance

Drizzy said:


> SportsCenter ‏@SportsCenter 1h
> 
> THIS JUST IN: Ray Allen says he will return to the NBA, which team he'll play w/ is undecided. (via @Chris_Broussard)
> 
> :diss:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/498223242973573120

:werdum:

I think it's only a matter of time though.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

XxIrvingxX said:


> I don't know, he had a insane season in his third year with Miami, if he gives more effort defensively compared to last year we could see another insane season from him statistically. I think he's got another MVP season left within him.


He might have more MVP seasons, but I doubt he ever averages 30ppg again, or 8.6apg again, or 31.7 PER again. Those are behind him. He might up his rebounding career high for a season which is 8rpg right now, especially if he transitions into guarding power forwards more late in his career. 

It's possible that he declines statistically, but people perceive him to be a better player because he is smarter and picks his spots. This happened with both Jordan and Kobe in their 30's. For this reason I don't think the MVP seasons and the statistics are related. It's possible that he wins another 2-3 MVP's while never having another season as good as his 3 best statistical seasons to date. He has set the bar really high for himself for peaking any higher in any faucet of his game.


----------



## Pyrex

Allen is going to want a pretty big role, between Ray, Miller, Jones, Waiters etc...to many guards. Maybe Blatt will have a line up of 

Irving PG
Ray SG
Miller SF
Lebron PF
Love C

That's one hell of an offense, weak defense besides Bron and Miller though. Blatt is going to have foaming out the mouth with all the possibilities.


----------



## e-monk

there's actually tape of Ray Allen just last night saying he wouldn't make up his mind if and where he will play until next month


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Pyrex said:


> Allen is going to want a pretty big role, between Ray, Miller, Jones, Waiters etc...to many guards. Maybe Blatt will have a line up of
> 
> Irving PG
> Ray SG
> Miller SF
> Lebron PF
> Love C
> 
> That's one hell of an offense, weak defense besides Bron and Miller though. Blatt is going to have foaming out the mouth with all the possibilities.


They aren't going to start Allen over Waiters when he has made it clear he doesn't want to come off the bench, even though I do think that would be a smart thing to do. 

Now, looking at that line up, that's an insane shooting line up but very weak defensively and there's no way LeBron is going to be playing PF to start out in games with his recent weight loss.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

*Love trade could potentially be nixed by NBA*

http://www.thescore.com/nba/news/551968



> Fans of the Minnesota Timberwolves have been here before. Avoid under-the-table future contract agreements at all costs.
> 
> As reported by Marc Stein and Brian Windhorst of ESPN, the Timberwolves and Cleveland Cavaliers have been downplaying a pending trade involving Kevin Love for Andrew Wiggins, Anthony Bennett and a future first-rounder for fear of breaking rules detailed by the CBA.
> 
> The first hurdle is that any trade involving Wiggins won't be able to be consummated until Aug. 23, which marks 30 days since Wiggins signed his rookie deal with the Cavaliers. The CBA stipulates that players cannot be dealt within 30 days of inking a deal.
> 
> The second, and more perilous stipulation involves Love. It's been rumored that the Cavaliers made the deal with some assurance that Love would sign a long-term extension with the squad when his contract runs out in 2015 (provided he declines his player option). However, agreements on future contracts are strictly not allowed, and if the league finds evidence of such an under-the-table deal, punishment looms for both teams, including nixing the deal in the first place.
> 
> Ironically, the best example of such a violation also involves the Timberwolves. It was found that the Timberwolves and forward Joe Smith had a written agreement for a lucrative future contract. The resulting punishment saw the league negate the deal, and the Timberwolves lose $3.5 million as well as four first-round draft picks.
> 
> On the surface, the Cavaliers reportedly sending two back-to-back No. 1 overall picks in a trade for one year of Love is a steep price. It's made more palatable, however, with an agreement from Love to ink a five-year deal thereafter. Said agreement would be strictly illegal if concocted before Love actually reaches free-agency in 2015.


Ummmmm................................

I know absolutely nothing about this deal thing, anyone want to give some clarification on this?


----------



## cima

XxIrvingxX said:


> *Love trade could potentially be nixed by NBA*
> 
> http://www.thescore.com/nba/news/551968
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmmm................................
> 
> I know absolutely nothing about this deal thing, anyone want to give some clarification on this?


I have a hard time believing Cleveland (and Minnesota for that matter) would be stupid enough to do that since it has gotten the TWolves in trouble before.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

cima said:


> I have a hard time believing Cleveland (and Minnesota for that matter) would be stupid enough to do that since it has gotten the TWolves in trouble before.


I would certainly hope not. However, very big consequences could occur that could really bite both franchises in the ass if they end up really doing it.

But what exactly is "it"? I'm not really sure I'm following. So if Love and the Cavaliers already have a deal lined up of what Love's deal with Cleveland would be like if he opted out would be illegal? Is that what they're saying?

Edit: Nevermind, did some digging on it and got a little more informed about it. I guess what I said before is the case here.


----------



## Hyperion

XxIrvingxX said:


> They aren't going to start Allen over Waiters when he has made it clear he doesn't want to come off the bench, even though I do think that would be a smart thing to do.
> 
> Now, looking at that line up, that's an insane shooting line up but very weak defensively and there's no way LeBron is going to be playing PF to start out in games with his recent weight loss.


Yeah, LeBron only weighs 240lbs now. The dude has weighed anywhere from 250-270lbs during his career. Let's not start calling him a lightweight now.


----------



## RollWithEm

Drizzy said:


> Didn't notice this before...watch 11:45. Answers the Klay question directly. Sure seems certain about it.


If he's right, that was the best offer. Minnesota waited too long and missed their shot.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Hyperion said:


> Yeah, LeBron only weighs 240lbs now. The dude has weighed anywhere from 250-270lbs during his career. Let's not start calling him a lightweight now.


I'm not saying that, it's just that even before there were disadvantages to playing Lebron at the PF spot even when he was the weight you just described. Now he loses some weight (noticeably might I add), and at this point, starting him at PF is something you shouldn't really consider. You want the best you can possibly get out of Lebron.


----------



## Hyperion

XxIrvingxX said:


> I'm not saying that, it's just that even before there were disadvantages to playing Lebron at the PF spot even when he was the weight you just described. Now he loses some weight (noticeably might I add), and at this point, starting him at PF is something you shouldn't really consider. You want the best you can possibly get out of Lebron.


The problem is that LeBron still had to guard the best player on the court. Unless you get him some defensive help, nothing is going to change.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Hyperion said:


> The problem is that LeBron still had to guard the best player on the court. Unless you get him some defensive help, nothing is going to change.


And who says that's necessarily a bad thing?

Varejao is the best defender on the team besides Lebron and all he can really do at this point is guard the centers or PF's. At least that's a start since I guess Lebron was doing more of that during his time in Miami since Bosh wasn't really the capable defender that Varejao is (although he improved). You can't try to approach the defensive side of the floor in a more team oriented matter. Irving is decent in one on one on ball defense but he's one of the worst help defenders I've ever seen, and he can't stay with his man when he's off the ball if his life depended on it. Waiters has a long way to go, and Love is Love. This is the approach they will have to take. 

If the Cavs get Marion, it will certainly help the Cavs in regards to depth off the bench defensively and helping give another mentor for Thompson, Irving and Waiters, but really Blatt has to (and he probably already has) accept the fact that this team will probably struggle defensively for most of the season unless he can think of a good defensive scheme that manages to cover for Irving and Love's weaknesses.

For now, let Lebron cover the best player. Let the other players on his team learn from it. It did wonders for Miami to have Lebron guard Parker in the finals the first time the two teams met, I would say that even if Cleveland got more good defensive talent on the team, I'd still continue to have Lebron guard the other teams best player no matter what.


----------



## e-monk

XxIrvingxX said:


> *Love trade could potentially be nixed by NBA*
> 
> http://www.thescore.com/nba/news/551968
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmmm................................
> 
> I know absolutely nothing about this deal thing, anyone want to give some clarification on this?


not sure where it came from but ESPN at the same time they were reporting the trade announced that Love had agreed to [email protected] which if there is any verifiable source (and it's ESPN so who needs verification) would likely equal penalties and such (but again it's ESPN)


----------



## cima

Dude is looking really good, he will definitely be quicker on the floor this year.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

cima said:


> Dude is looking really good, he will definitely be quicker on the floor this year.


Holy shit he was a buff bastard in 2013. It's actually kind of surprising at how much he's trimmed. 

He's still going to be pretty hard to stop in the paint even with the weight trim. We won't be seeing as many and-1s from him, but regardless he's still a strong dude and it's still going to work to his advantage for the most part.


----------



## RollWithEm




----------



## XxIrvingxX

RollWithEm said:


> Welcome to Cleveland, Kevin Love! - YouTube


Can it be November already?


----------



## Pyrex

cima said:


> Dude is looking really good, he will definitely be quicker on the floor this year.


He looks the same in all three pictures, just different positions. Nothing to see here


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Pyrex said:


> He looks the same in all three pictures, just different positions. Nothing to see here


You're joking right? Because the ones on the left and right don't look alike at all to the one in the middle.


----------



## cima

Now I see why @R-Star always says nobody responds to Pyrex, lol. Could he be more blind?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

cima said:


> Now I see why @R-Star always says nobody responds to Pyrex, lol. Could he be more blind?


It's a shame because if you go over to the Greg Oden punching a girl thread, he makes a pretty hilarious comment about the situation.


----------



## E.H. Munro

XxIrvingxX said:


> *Love trade could potentially be nixed by NBA*
> 
> http://www.thescore.com/nba/news/551968
> 
> 
> 
> Ummmmm................................
> 
> I know absolutely nothing about this deal thing, anyone want to give some clarification on this?


Terrible reporting. Someone needs to explain to the reporter that extend & trades are verboten in the new CBA so teams always discuss extensions in trade talks now. And there's nothing wrong with it. If teams can't discuss players' willingness to extend then the trade market comes crashing to a close.


----------



## Pablo5

E.H. Munro said:


> Terrible reporting. Someone needs to explain to the reporter that extend & trades are verboten in the new CBA so teams always discuss extensions in trade talks now. And there's nothing wrong with it. If teams can't discuss players' willingness to extend then the trade market comes crashing to a close.


Says the guy that tried to explain to us that this wouldnt happen. Also the guy that laughed at the idea of his 4-5m rookie salary would be involved in getting Love.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Pablo5 said:


> Says the guy that tried to explain to us that this wouldnt happen. Also the guy that laughed at the idea of his 4-5m rookie salary would be involved in getting Love.


I think you're confuzzling me with R-Star.


----------



## Jamel Irief

Why isn't this official yet?


----------



## Basel

Jamel Irief said:


> Why isn't this official yet?



It can't be official until 30 days after Wiggins was signed, which will be August 23.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

Pablo5 said:


> Says the guy that tried to explain to us that this wouldnt happen. Also the guy that laughed at the idea of his 4-5m rookie salary would be involved in getting Love.


How does any of that have anything to do with what he just said?


----------



## kbdullah

Bump. Wiggins should become eligible for trade this weekend.


----------



## e-monk

very exciting! what do you think will happen?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

e-monk said:


> very exciting! what do you think will happen?


Well I'm going to jizz over the thought of owning a Kevin Love Cavaliers jersey.

In all seriousness, I can see either Barea or Mo Williams being the second person being traded over to the Cavs from the Timbers. No way Love is the only players Cavs get out of this.


----------



## e-monk

unless they move Sideshow Bob (which is apparently not going to happen) how are they going to make the money work on additional players?


----------



## XxIrvingxX

e-monk said:


> unless they move Sideshow Bob (which is apparently not going to happen) how are they going to make the money work on additional players?


Before I wasn't really taking this into account, but now that you bring it up I guess that's the reason why a second player was no longer involved. The actual trade itself I guess is now in place and it happening is inevitable. Love will be the only player going to the Cavs, and both Timbers and some other team I'm supposed to care about are getting three players each (right?).


----------



## cima

Minnesota is ****ing stealing this deal:

Cleveland gets: Kevin Love

Philadelphia gets: Mbah a Moute, Alexey Shved, future 1st round pick

Minnesota gets: Wiggins, Bennett, and Thaddeus Young

So Minnesota is getting Bennett AND Young now? WTF? How did Flip pull this off? Oh yeah I forgot, Philadelphia is the King of tanking. They get ANOTHER 1st round pick. This shit has got to stop.


----------



## XxIrvingxX

cima said:


> Minnesota is ****ing stealing this deal:
> 
> Cleveland gets: Kevin Love
> 
> Philadelphia gets: Mbah a Moute, Alexey Shved, future 1st round pick
> 
> Minnesota gets: Wiggins, Bennett, and Thaddeus Young
> 
> So Minnesota is getting Bennett AND Young now? WTF? How did Flip pull this off? Oh yeah I forgot, Philadelphia is the King of tanking. They get ANOTHER 1st round pick. This shit has got to stop.


Not necessarily.

They're losing their best player, Love, and in exchange they're getting a person who never played an NBA game in his life yet, one of the biggest draft busts in recent history although he's showing improvement, and Thaddeus Young, along with a first round draft pick from Cleveland which won't mean much since Cleveland will most likely be an NBA finals team. If Wiggins becomes almost as effective as Love, someone who still has a few years until he's in his prime, then the trade will be worth it.

Here's one thing no one's pointed out yet though. This upcoming season is going to be rough for Minny. Love was fourth in Win Shares in the NBA and now he's gone and Minny couldn't even win 40 games. Wiggins, Bennett and Young isn't going to make up for what they're about to lose in Love this season, that much is for sure. With this new team, expect Minnesota to struggle. We don't know how badly, but it could be brutal. This does open them up however for a big spot in the draft next season or two, so who knows.


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## cima

XxIrvingxX said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> They're losing their best player, Love, and in exchange they're getting a person who never played an NBA game in his life yet, one of the biggest draft busts in recent history although he's showing improvement, and Thaddeus Young, along with a first round draft pick from Cleveland which won't mean much since Cleveland will most likely be an NBA finals team. If Wiggins becomes almost as effective as Love, someone who still has a few years until he's in his prime, then the trade will be worth it.
> 
> Here's one thing no one's pointed out yet though. This upcoming season is going to be rough for Minny. Love was fourth in Win Shares in the NBA and now he's gone and Minny couldn't even win 40 games. Wiggins, Bennett and Young isn't going to make up for what they're about to lose in Love this season, that much is for sure. With this new team, expect Minnesota to struggle. We don't know how badly, but it could be brutal. This does open them up however for a big spot in the draft next season or two, so who knows.


But what you're forgetting is that Minnesota was going to lose Love regardless. Had they been stubborn and kept him, he would have walked away and they would have got absolutely nothing. Now they have a potential franchise player in Wiggins, a potential starter in Bennett, and another proven starter (granted it was on Phill) that Flip is really high on. Flip did the best he could in avoiding total disaster.


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## cima

ROFL please go away Bledsoe. This was a pretty desperate attempt from Phoenix here.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...atest-buzz-and-speculation-surrounding-suns-g



> With just hours to go before a planned megadeal the would send Kevin Love to Cleveland, the Phoenix Suns reached out to the Minnesota Timberwolves on Thursday to ask once more about the possibility of acquiring Love in a sign-and-trade for guard Eric Bledsoe, sources told ESPN.com.


Good riddance Bledsoe, whether it's before this season or after. You've worn out your welcome in Phoenix.


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## XxIrvingxX

cima said:


> But what you're forgetting is that Minnesota was going to lose Love regardless. Had they been stubborn and kept him, he would have walked away and they would have got absolutely nothing. Now they have a potential franchise player in Wiggins, a potential starter in Bennett, and another proven starter (granted it was on Phill) that Flip is really high on. Flip did the best he could in avoiding total disaster.


This upcoming season is most likely going to be a total disaster. I don't see it happening any other way. Minny has the potential for a really bright future regardless of whether or not Wiggins becomes a star. But for now, they're gonna have to deal with sucking for the next few years. The problem is that this leaves them open to lose some of their key players in the next few years, and just like that it could become a cycle for players that want to win now and don't want to wait later. Hence why this could be bad for Minny.

I don't see this happening, but I just want to point out why this trade Minny is doing is a big risk for them. I don't think people truly realize that. Developing mode isn't just about...you know, developing. It's about creating a system that can keep your other players happy and make them not want to leave. Right now Minny is heading for a path where it might take two or three years before they can win more games than they just got done winning last season, which isn't good.


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## King Sancho Fantastic

The Sixers are a ****ing joke of a franchise...


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## XxIrvingxX

Stephan A Smith on sportscenter says that the current Cavaliers team we're going to have now after Love gets traded is a better team than the Miami Heat from last season due to Wade's injury issues and Cleveland's depth and youth. I find this very interesting because this is essentially a new team being formed together under a coach that has never coached an NBA game in his life and he's favoring this team over the Heat from last year that had more familiarity with each other and a good system to play under from their coach on both ends of the floor (well, sort of for offense). 

Which team do you guys think is better? This years current Cavaliers team, discounting the possibility of Ray Allen joining, or last years Heat team that did, for the most part, have pretty good depth for James?


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## Jamel Irief

Wow, we're slipping here. Nobody has yet to "UPDATE" the thread title for the 56th time.


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## Dissonance

Unfortunately, you're not slipping and managed to say something snarky directed at the staff for the 1.2Mth time.


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## XxIrvingxX

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/8/...e-andrew-wiggins-cavaliers-timberwolves-76ers

*Kevin Love officially traded to the Cavaliers*

At my friends dorm right now with about 8 other people, these gifs basically describe what's happening right now...and represent how I feel in a way.




























Except for this one which represents Josh, the one who wanted Wiggins to stay...


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## Jamel Irief

Dissonance said:


> Unfortunately, you're not slipping and managed to say something snarky directed at the staff for the 1.2Mth time.


I am transcendent.


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## kbdullah

> It's not going to get as much discussion during the season, but one of the biggest issues for the Cavs is that both LeBron James and Kevin Love own opt outs after this season. LeBron James basically cannot afford to go anywhere after his return to Cleveland. But watch out for Love. Indications are he will seriously consider the opt out and has his eyes on a return to Los Angeles, where he attended college and where the Lakers long have had him on their free agent wish list...


http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24796436/report-cavs-kevin-love-will-consider-opt-out-has-eyes-on-lakers

Bump. For giggles


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## E.H. Munro

Anything that convinces LeBron to tell management to go out and get him Rondo for Irving is A-OK in my book.


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## Dee-Zy

Is it me or this doesn't make any sense at all and sounds 110% fabricated? On the bulls.com website on top of it!? WTF.

Doesn't make any sense.


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## XxIrvingxX

E.H. Munro said:


> Anything that convinces LeBron to tell management to go out and get him Rondo for Irving is A-OK in my book.


Why would you want Rondo for Irving on a team like this? That's just idiotic. 



Dee-Zy said:


> Is it me or this doesn't make any sense at all and sounds 110% fabricated? On the bulls.com website on top of it!? WTF.
> 
> Doesn't make any sense.


Even though the article does state that the chances of this happening are very slim, I still don't see why he even bothered to point it out. Love made it perfectly clear that he plans on staying with the Cavs long term, not to mention the Lakers aren't exactly the best place to go to right now if you're trying to chase a championship. 

Love's going to resign with the Cavaliers at the end of the season. If rules didn't prevent him from being allowed to sign during this season, he would have already signed a brand new max contract with Cleveland.


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## E.H. Munro

XxIrvingxX said:


> Why would you want Rondo for Irving on a team like this? That's just idiotic.


Because Rondo is perfectly content to funnel shots to Love and James making it easier for them to score.


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## Dornado

Dee-Zy said:


> Is it me or this doesn't make any sense at all and sounds 110% fabricated? On the bulls.com website on top of it!? WTF.
> 
> Doesn't make any sense.



You should definitely take anything resembling a rumor coming from Sam Smith with a grain of salt. He can be an OK writer, but he has a knack for setting message-boards aflame with speculation.


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## Jamel Irief

Technically, there's a slim chance love retires to start a career as a gay porn star too.


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## Diable

Love will opt out and so will Lebron. Everyone who has the chance to opt out under the new cap is going to do it. That much is almost certain. The rest of it is just baseless conjecture


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## XxIrvingxX

http://www.slamonline.com/nba/340292/

Just as I predicted...


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