# Honestly: Are you Happy with the trade?



## walkon4 (Mar 28, 2003)

I have to admit, I may get some hating here. But Tim Thomas is not the answer. I am sorry if I get anyone wild, but Van Horn was the better player. The Knicks will need Van Horn's outside shot in the Playoffs, when Houston isn't capabable of getting open, or in a more recent situation, Injured and hurting.

Yeah, he didn't have a good second half, but come on everyone was amazed at his first half. He played very well. The Knicks will miss Van Horn. He is a pretty consistent rebounder, plays hard, and you have to respect his jumper. The same cannot be said about Thomas. He shows me really nothing. I am proud by my statement.

THE KNICKS will Miss KVH. 
And also, why isnt Sweetney getting more and more minutes? He should be ready come playoff time.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

tim thomas is just as good a three point shooter. In fact, he hit a big three in the wizards game to help send the game to OT.

The trade was good. The only thing we miss is Van Horns rebounding but Tim can get those boards if he puts his mind to it. 

I dont miss keiths inconsistent play, compared to Tims consistent play here. I dont miss Keith getting blocked by midgets and turning the ball over worse then steve francis. And i dont miss that stupid touch down thing van horn does when he hits a three.


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## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>TheTruth34</b>!
> I have to admit, I may get some hating here. But Tim Thomas is not the answer. I am sorry if I get anyone wild, but Van Horn was the better player. The Knicks will need Van Horn's outside shot in the Playoffs, when Houston isn't capabable of getting open, or in a more recent situation, Injured and hurting.
> 
> Yeah, he didn't have a good second half, but come on everyone was amazed at his first half. He played very well. The Knicks will miss Van Horn. He is a pretty consistent rebounder, plays hard, and you have to respect his jumper. The same cannot be said about Thomas. He shows me really nothing. I am proud by my statement.
> ...


I think most people here understand that KVH is a better player than TT. However, why is it that many people keep thinking the trade as a KVH for TT swap? Isiah himself said that if Nazr wasn't in the trade he wouldn't have done it. TT is worse than KVH, but Nazr is a definate upgrade over Dolec. Sure the Knicks could use KVH's outside shooting, but to be honest TT hasn't really been that bad, and would you have wanted the Knicks going into the playoffs with injuried Mutumbo and Dolec as our centers? (since we had no idea about Baker yet) 

BTW, can Baker be on our playoff squad? I thought the deadline for players to be included on their teams playoff roster was March 1. Am I wrong, does Baker have a special exemption from the rule, or is Baker inelgible?


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Not a TT hater here..just not a fan, but to say TT has been consistent shows that either you are not watching the games or you don't understand what you are watching. TT shoots a different kind of three...he has to be WIDE open. VH was more like Houston...a little room and it's enough to shoot. TT has shown himself to be reliable on the line at the end and that is a plus. To say that he is a three point shooter is like saying Anderson is. Both can make the really open ones but can't make it when they are under some pressure.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

look at tims numbers while hes been here. Hes been pretty consistent. The only time he had bad games is the two games he got hurt and couldnt play and his first game here, where he played limited minutes.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

ALFA..I can go along wth alot of what you say....But you have got to be kidding me with



> TT shoots a different kind of three...he has to be WIDE open.


That is downright absurd.Please,KVH does not create nearly as well as TT..Not even close...They shoot the same 3 point shot..They are basically post up 3 point shooters...You guys have to stop making up stuff to justify your feelings....The numbers DONT lie...

Its very similar to the posts where KVH scores when it matters most,and TT doesnt..NONSENSE......Go look at KVH playoff numbers..They DROP by 40 %.....

The ONLY numbers that stand out is rebounding differential..KVH is a MUCH better rebounder.....

And its obvious that the Knicks were playing better ball with KVH than TT


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I've only waffled on this trade because at times since it the Knicks have played utterly deplorably, and in those moments of utter weakness and disgust I'd have traded a testicle to get them playing better. 

But I don't think the talent differencial between the two is the cause. The team did lose the Marbury/VH/Doleac chemistry, but that's not to say that TT/Nazr/Marbury can't creat their own. Nazr is showing himself to be a viable clutch inside option and TT has been holding his own at 19.5 ppg 5.5 rpg. SOmewhere Alpha said that TT's 19.5ppg are all soft points. That's rediculous. The former team was the worst in the league at getting to the freethrow line. That's disgusting, and thankfully it's changing.

Look at TT's shot chart from yesterday:

http://www.sportsline.com/nba/gamecenter/shotchart/[email protected]

It's a beautifully balanced attack. 14 of his points were in the paint, 8 at the FT line, 6 from 3s, the rest mid-range jumpers. He had 6 layup attempts, making 4. I'd bet the two he missed were due to getting fouled and then hitting free throws. He shot nearly 50% for the game and was 50% on 3s. truth suggested he'd average 25 PPG if he'd put up more shots. Well yesterday he put up 23 and scored 32, with 5 boards. What more do you want from a small forward?

Now look at VH:

http://www.sportsline.com/nba/gamecenter/shotchart/[email protected]

6 of his points in the paint, 2 at the line. WHich is the softer attack? Oh and VH only had 4 rebs.

It's just one game, the most recent, it doesn't prove anything over the long haul, and in another thread I posted a longer term comparisoin where they come out even. But it does illustrate some of the bias against TT and the mythology around VH. 

Before the trade Isiah said he felt the team was overacheiving, and I think he was right. Penny was playing great ball, as was KT (what did he hit, 28 consecutive jumpers?), Othella and the rest. It just so happened that all guns were blasting at the same time. But since, KT is off, Penny has sucked, Houston has been out, the frontcourt has had anything but a consistent rotation, the new guys are working themselves in, etc, etc.

So if the comparison is always going to be against the Knicks on a hot streak it may be hards to match. But remember that the Knicks lost the last two games with VH and then beat the Pistons without him. It just shows the capability is there to go either way with either incarnation of the squad. And while VH has historically been the better player I thing TT has the greater upside in the future. His game is more balanced. And VH has spent most of his career as a second option while TT has spent most of his as a fourth. As truth showed us if he were simply putting up as many shots as VH he might be outperforming him.

Bottom line is it's a tough call. On paper I think the Knicks should be better post trade but so far they haven't been. But in spite of some really poor play the Knicks have won 5 of their last 7 and I think some chemistry is forming. I believe that if/when all the guns of this team, as presently consituted, are firing at the same time, it would BEAT the team of before the trade in a 7 game series.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

*YOU GOT IT*



> Penny was playing great ball, as was KT (what did he hit, 28 consecutive jumpers?), Othella and the rest. It just so happened that all guns were blasting at the same time. But since, KT is off, Penny has sucked, Houston has been out, the frontcourt has had anything but a consistent rotation, the new guys are working themselves in, etc, etc.


that is the answer i was looking for...I forgot about KT hitting 54 in a row..Its true,we were on a roll and KT was on FIRE...Penny was playing well,and he has been BRUTAL on offense since then..

Once again I am not a TT fan,just a fan....The guy has flat out delivered


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

One game...and btw, I don't think fouls count as a shot attempt unless the basket is made. Also, Truth, I never said VH was a creator...only that he needed less room to pull the trigger on a three. Please don't read more than is there. I say exactly what I mean in most cases. Oak...driving to the hoop doesn't make you a tough player. It is the way you drive. The chances of TT getting knocked down on a drive is rare. It may happen, but not often because of contact. VH got creamed. I have seen many players in my time that scored almost all of their points close in but they were as soft as jello. And vise versa. Ah..numbers guys..


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

28 in a row? Don't think so....)


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

lets play an UNBIASED game.....

Lets directly compare player A and player B..But lets not compare their stats from different TEAMS,lets make believe we are Knick fans and compare the performance from their days as Knicks...

Fair enuff???

Player A
Takes 11.6 shots per game and score 15.7 PPG..He is shooting 50% from the floor and 43.2% from 3 point land..He grabs 5 rebounds per game,and turns the ball over 1.43x per game....

Player B takes 13 shots per game and scores 16.4 PPG.He is shooting 44.5% from the floor,and 37.3% from 3 point land.He grabs 7.3 rebounds per game,and turns it over 2.55x per game...

Lets summarise...Player B shoots more,not nearly as well,is mor turnover prone but is a better rebounder..Obviously,Player A is the better shooter,turns the ball over less but doesnt rebound as well

Any clear palyer choice????

Maybe ,maybe not.....But there is more....Lets throw in another component A2 and B2

A2 Takes 6.7 shots per game and score 7.7 PPG..He is shooting 55.2% from the floor..He grabs 7.7 rebounds per game,and turns the ball over 1.4x per game....

Player B2 takes 4.9 shots per game and scores 5 PPG.He is shooting 44% from the floor.He grabs 4.1 rebounds per game,and turns it over .8x per game

Lets summarise A2 and B2...A2 shoots more,scores more and shoots a much higher percentage from the floor..A2 is a much better rebounder,but turns the ball over slightly more

Do you think player A and A2 have been better performers for the Knicks than B and B2????

You tell me


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> Oak...driving to the hoop doesn't make you a tough player. It is the way you drive. The chances of TT getting knocked down on a drive is rare. It may happen, but not often because of contact. VH got creamed. I have seen many players in my time that scored almost all of their points close in but they were as soft as jello. And vise versa. Ah..numbers guys..


Alphadog, are you even watching the games? Didn't you admit you didin't see TT's facial on Dalembert? There have been several others too. And when did VH turn into Kenyon Martin? VH is Mr Softee. Last time he tried to dunk as a Knick Duncan went straight up with him, cleanly blocked the shot, and VH hurt his itty bitty arm and was worthless for some games thereafter. TT hyperextended his elbow twice in the same game, left the game, and came back strong the next day.

You're just being beyond reasoning. Enjoy your VH as mighty warrior fantasies. The white knight who rides into town on a snow cone...


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Last time he tried to dunk as a Knick Duncan went straight up with him, cleanly blocked the shot, and VH hurt his itty bitty arm and was worthless for some games thereafter.


Perhaps you missed when VH broke Artest's ankles and took it to Jermaine O'Neal on the same play.

I also had no idea that Samuel Dalembert was a valid comparison to Tim Duncan. I guess there is no chance whatsoever that Tim Duncan would have blocked TT's dunk attempt. None.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Rashidi, get some reading comprehension help. The point wasn't who blocked who's shot, it was the effect on the player having had it done to him.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

This is amazing....Are we watching the same games?????????

TT takes it to the hole much better than KVH......

I may have missed the KVH /artest play........

I will say this and Petey is a good judge..Van Horn seems to have lost his hops..When he first came in to the league,he was nasty...


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

You guys are beyond help. I explain that numbers don't tell a real story and you come back with a numbers only analysis...wow. And Oak is still talking about a facial on a 3rd or 4th tier center ...and he cites many more. Which ones were they,Oak?.....I missed them. I have seen his layups and finger rolls though..very physical. Lets talk offensive rebounds. VH is one of the btter O rebounders at the forward spot. Not only are they rebounds but they are second opportunities for a team that struggles shooting. Oak, you can hoot all you want about the one facial he threw down...and it sounded like a formidable one(I missed it) but what does it really mean? I have seen ' Horn do a couple of facials as well. And do you really think TT would dunk on Duncan? You can't be serious....he wouldn't even try to challenge him. You need to give VH his props on that play. He was not in stride..off balance and he still tried to take it to him. Bet he has more dunks than TT this year on non fast breaks, too. But I can't back it up. I will gladly give TT credit when I think he rates it. Being physical means boarding and mixing it up...and TT doesn't . VH does. Bottom line? When they had VH and everyone was healthy they were kickin *** and takin names. When they get there with TT let me know. They haven't beaten anyone yet. And THAT, my misguided mathematicians is a non disputable fact.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

And Oak..you talk aboout VH's shouolder injury like he was a baby. Did you see the play TT got his elbow hurt on?...lol. That was a real beauty...running around a pick...lol. Pick another example of his toughness, please.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> KVH hurt his itty bitty arm and was worthless for some games thereafter


LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!That is tooo #$%^%$ ing funny..Cmon Oak,you didnt expect a non emotional answer after that.You knew he was gonna reach into his bag of tricks.....






> I have seen many players in my time


Alfa,you are a young man!!!!!!!!!!!...You act like you were out in the backyard with James Nasmith when he put the milk crate on the telephone poll and invented basketball


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Alfa,you are a young man!!!!!!!!!!!...You act like you were out in the backyard with James Nasmith when he put the milk crate on the telephone poll and invented basketball


Uh, 1000 players have probably played in the NBA in the last decade. Or at the very least drafted.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> And Oak..you talk aboout VH's shouolder injury like he was a baby. Did you see the play TT got his elbow hurt on?...lol. That was a real beauty...running around a pick...lol. Pick another example of his toughness, please.


Yes, his elbow got hyperextended a couple of minutes after it got hurt taking it to the rim. But he bounced back quickly, VH just hurt his taking it to the rim, without the further hyperextension, and was screwed for days.

Look, there is no further I can take this. I've stated my case, the numbers are mearly the supporting evidence. The kind of evidence you DON'T provide to support your case. You just keep hawking that VH is tough and TT is soft, with no evidence other than that he can pull down about 1.5 more boards per game, which I never disputed. I do not have total recall of every play each guy has made here, but from what I've seen TT is the more dynamic and versatile offensive player. And he's also becomming fairly clutch. Perhaps you have the total recall of all the games VH clinched for us in the waning minutes?

If you have anything further to add I'm all ears, but I've made my case and submitted supporting evidence. I'll be awaiting the same from you.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

um,ithink you missed the point..but i am glad to see you have come out from your self imposed exile after watching the "Magical world of KVH and his 2nd half Dissappearing act".....Part 12


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> You just keep hawking that VH is tough and TT is soft, with no evidence other than that he can pull down about 1.5 more boards per game, which I never disputed.


How many FTs do they attempt per game?

Nevermind that most of TT's FTs in the last couple games have come off intentional fouls with the clock running down.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I love you guys...If TT score 30 points or more,you beatch that he only has 3 boards

If he serves Van Horn a donut for an entire seconfd half,you find some other lame excuse

When he hits for 32 and makes his free throws,its because he was intentionally foulded

When he shoots better from 3 point land,its because he gets "better looks""

Alfa claims TT is a one on one player in an earlier post,and Rashidi says TT cant create....And of course they are both right......

"OH NO,we arent biased.."....Are both you guys on the pill???


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> How many FTs do they attempt per game?


Glad you asked. In TT's 11 games he's had 53 attempts. In VH last 11 games he's had 49.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Glad you asked. In TT's 11 games he's had 53 attempts. In VH last 11 games he's had 49.


And how many of TT's came on intentional fouls?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> You guys are beyond help. I explain that numbers don't tell a real story and you come back with a numbers only analysis.


Let me get this straight..You are completely biased on this trade,have always been from day one,can not present ONE stat that validates your emotional views and you want me to go along with your subjective slant to get the real story??????

Surely you jest Alfa..........

Let me guess,you do something in sales:yes:


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> And how many of TT's came on intentional fouls?


It's pointless to try to compare, I don't watch the Bucks games to see how VH is getting his. Do you?


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## Perennial All Star (Aug 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> 
> 
> It's pointless to try to compare, I don't watch the Bucks games to see how VH is getting his. Do you?


Ofcourse he does. And he watches Suns games to look out for Layden, who's sitting in the crowd watching his and Rashidi's boy Eisley throwing bad passes to McKnee.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Thanks for the compliment, Truth...I am 48


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Alfa,you are a young man my fine friend!!!!!!!


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> And he watches Suns games to look out for Layden, who's sitting in the crowd watching his and Rashidi's boy Eisley throwing bad passes to McKnee.


LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Eisly to McKnee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that is $%^&*** funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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