# LeKanye - "I can win scoring title if I feel like it"



## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5030453


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

So, his claiming that winning the scoring title is unimportant to him, and that he'd prefer to win titles proves that he's what... exactly?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

When someone like Ron Artest says that he can average 30 if he wants to I'd laugh. Theres nothing funny about Lebron's claim though.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

He's a cool guy, but he has that "I've been sucked up to my whole life" personality, and it shows from time to time, like now.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Scoring titles are pretty much about taking shots. You win scoring titles because you're out there slinging the ball towards the rim. That isn't the way to win basketball games necessarily. Feel free to look up how many minutes, FG attempts and free throw attempts it took Iverson to win scoring titles. Then you can suppose that Lebron behaved like Iverson and figure out how many points he would be scoring if he did nothing except try to score without regard to his team. You probably couldn't assume that Lebron would remain as efficient a scorer as he is now though, because this assumes that he wouldn't be taking only good oppurtunities. Also part of the reason Lebron is an efficient scorer is the fact that you can't ignore the fact that he's a very good passer.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Not much of an article but Lebron's right. Hopefully he doesn't try to go for a ton of points tonight against my Spurs even though he could have a field day against Keith Bogans, Richard Jefferson and whoever else is unfortunate enough to guard him.


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## MojoPin (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm tired of all the arrogance, whether its justified or not. Kobe was arrogant, but he never went around doing half the **** LeBron has done.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Diable said:


> Scoring titles are pretty much about taking shots. You win scoring titles because you're out there slinging the ball towards the rim. That isn't the way to win basketball games necessarily. Feel free to look up how many minutes, FG attempts and free throw attempts it took Iverson to win scoring titles. Then you can suppose that Lebron behaved like Iverson and figure out how many points he would be scoring if he did nothing except try to score without regard to his team. You probably couldn't assume that Lebron would remain as efficient a scorer as he is now though, because this assumes that he wouldn't be taking only good oppurtunities. Also part of the reason Lebron is an efficient scorer is the fact that you can't ignore the fact that he's a very good passer.


This Season:

LeBron James
20 FGA/game
29.8 PPG
8.5 APG
50.4% FG%

Iverson's Peak Statistical Season:
25.FGA/game
33.0 PPG
7.4 APG
44.7% FG%

Clearly, these numbers favor LeBron in terms of efficiency, with the main differences in %FG and FGA per game. Differences in %FG can be partially attributed to size differences, and others in shot selection. I still hold out that currently and in the past, LeBron is of Iveron's mold in the fact that he is unable to coexist with another great player. Both players handle the ball a lot, and thus rack up plenty of points and assists. But basketball is a team sport.

On a side note, LeBron's a little ***** for even insinuating he could win the scoring title if he wanted to. He needs to recognize there are plenty of other talented players in this league that could easily challenge him for the scoring title _"if they wanted to."_

Kobe is still the best pure scorer in the league, and I'm sure Melo and KD could easily challenge LeBron.


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## carrrnuttt (Dec 4, 2004)

Duck34234 said:


> On a side note, LeBron's a little ***** for even insinuating he could win the scoring title if he wanted to. He needs to recognize there are plenty of other talented players in this league that could easily challenge him for the scoring title _"if they wanted to."_


What's wrong with his claim? He has the ability to score in bunches, and he's on a team that will never say ANYTHING to him if he decides to take every damn shot on every possession, including the coaches. Of course that's not the path to winning games, but if he REALLY wanted to, he can average 40 pts as it stands. His team just won't win as much.

He's basically saying wins are more important than a scoring title. What's wrong with that?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Lebron could score 40 a night. Come on. Of course he could win it.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

carrrnuttt said:


> He's basically saying wins are more important than a scoring title. What's wrong with that?


Can't you understand that only selfish, me-first cancers would claim that NBA titles are more important than scoring titles? Just look at how he's been unable to coexist with all-time NBA greats Wally Szczerbiak Szczuperstar, Delonte West, and... and... and... whatever other all-time NBA greats played in Cleveland! Brad Daugherty! That's it! Look at how poorly Brad Daugherty played for the Cavs once LeBron arrived! If only he were "less selfish" like Kobe or Durant...


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

HKF said:


> Lebron could score 40 a night. Come on. Of course he could win it.


I would bit $1000 Lebron couldn't score 40 a night for an entire season.

And is Baylor doing something this summer?


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

So... the league's leading scorer claimed he could lead the league in scoring?


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

I'm so tired of hearing about Lebron. Can't believe he said something so arrogant...


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

i can't believe people are actually getting upset about this.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

rocketeer said:


> i can't believe people are actually getting upset about this.


Or anything LeBron does. Guess, they'll try to find any way to hate him.


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## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

What about 'chips, LeBron? Not stomach growlin' hungry yet?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I find it rather funny that people are claiming other guys are better scorers than Lebron when all these guys are taking more shots and scoring less. Is there something I'm missing?


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

rocketeer said:


> i can't believe people are actually getting upset about this.


Lot of people dislike successful people...go figure.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

Duck34234 said:


> Kobe is still the best pure scorer in the league, and I'm sure Melo and KD could easily challenge LeBron.


What about the guy that won the scoring title last season while being double teamed every game?


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

myst said:


> What about the guy that won the scoring title last season while being double teamed every game?


But what happen when he gets 1 year older? Slower and injuries start to horn him.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> Lot of people dislike successful people...go figure.


Well, at least Zazh isnt anything I will jealous about.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

John said:


> Well, at least Zazh isnt anything I will jealous about.



Hit the scotch early today, John? F! your post.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Why would this come as a surprise, Bron is Captain Arrogant. If he wins the scoring title good for him, but don't go around talking the talk, walk the ****ing walk 4x4 head. 

Remember the Check The Stats tee shirt. Sure LeBron James is interested in just winning titles. That was the shirt Bron was repping, once the Magic ousted his backside last year in the playoffs. LeBron James is hypocrite and Captain Arrogant.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I read this yesterday on realgm and thought it was pretty arrogant. He even said he could win it _every year_ if he wanted to. These are things you keep to yourself because they rub people the wrong way. I personally don't care if top tier athletes have big egos (Kobe, LeBron, Tiger, etc) because it comes with the territory. Some are just better at concealing it. LeBron lately has been terrible at concealing it. 

It rubs me the wrong way because it's almost a shot at Durant. They asked him in the context of him vs. Durant in the scoring race and he said what he said, like Durant isn't just trying to help his team win games too. 

Jordan was a douchebag too. Great athletes often are. It's not a big deal. We're fans of them because of their spectacular playing ability, not because they're great nice friendly people.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Dornado said:


> So... the league's leading scorer claimed he could lead the league in scoring?


I know, that would be like Dwight claiming that he could lead the league in rebounds or blocks. The arrogance of these guys.



Lynx said:


> What about 'chips, LeBron? Not stomach growlin' hungry yet?


If you read the article, he pretty much says that winning the scoring title doesn't interest him, he wants a title. Somehow, however, the leading scorer in the NBA saying that he's more interested in winning than scoring is somehow "arrogant". Jesus.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

LeBron said he could win it every single year if he wanted. You can say it's not a big deal, and you're probably right, but it's definitely arrogant. I mean, he is leading a 21 year Kevin Durant this year by .1 points. C'mon. He is the best player in the league, but he is just one of a handful of great scorers in the league.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> LeBron said he could win it every single year if he wanted. You can say it's not a big deal, and you're probably right, but it's definitely arrogant. I mean, he is leading a 21 year Kevin Durant this year by .1 points. C'mon. He is the best player in the league, but he is just one of a handful of great scorers in the league.


do you disagree with lebron? i don't. i think it's an absolute fact that if lebron wanted the scoring title every year, he could have it.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Why would this come as a surprise, Bron is Captain Arrogant. If he wins the scoring title good for him, but don't go around talking the talk, walk the ****ing walk 4x4 head.


you clearly don't even understand his statement. what would "walking the walk" in this situation be? proving that he could win the scoring title every year even if it hurt his team?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> do you disagree with lebron? i don't. i think it's an absolute fact that if lebron wanted the scoring title every year, he could have it.


It doesn't have to be untrue to be arrogant. If the hottest girl in a bar walked in and said "I'm the hottest girl in this bar" it would be arrogant, even if true. 

I don't disagree that he could win every year if he tried, because you're not supposed to try unless you're some Allen Iverson chucker. Kevin Durant could win every year too if he tried, but he wants to win games too like LeBron. Of course, Durant hasn't made it known that he could win it every year, and if he ever did, it would be an arrogant thing to say as well. 

It's really not a big deal and it's the type of statement you'd expect from a great athlete, but it puzzles me to think it's not arrogant.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It doesn't have to be untrue to be arrogant. If the hottest girl in a bar walked in and said "I'm the hottest girl in this bar" it would be arrogant, even if true.
> 
> I don't disagree that he could win every year if he tried, because you're not supposed to try unless you're some Allen Iverson chucker. Kevin Durant could win every year too if he tried, but he wants to win games too like LeBron. Of course, Durant hasn't made it known that he could win it every year, and if he ever did, it would be an arrogant thing to say as well.
> 
> It's really not a big deal and it's the type of statement you'd expect from a great athlete, but it puzzles me to think it's not arrogant.


the difference is that if durant made that statement it wouldn't be true. he can try as hard as he wants, but if lebron's going for it, lebron would win it.

i just don't understand why people care about the statement, but i guess people have to get pissed off at anything lebron does. he's basically just saying that he doesn't care about the scoring title because team success is more important. if it was important to him, he'd go for it every year but since it's not important he'll take it if he gets it but he's not going out of his way.


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

After seeing Lebron Wednesday night I sorta have to agree.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

After watching Kobe drop 81 I sorta have to disagree.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

*And ...?*

I don't see what the big deal is. Starting with his second season in the NBA, LeBron James has finished no worse than fourth in scoring average. He's already won one scoring title and currently leads the NBA in scoring. Given he just turned 25, it's not unrealistic to think (barring injury) he has the chance to win more scoring titles.

Not to mention the context of his statement. James said in response to scoring titles, "It's not important to me at all. I mean right now our team is in a position to try to clinch throughout the whole playoffs. ... If we can do that, that will be more important than a scoring title. I mean, individual accolades take care of [themselves]."

It just came off as matter-of-fact and, while a nice individual award, it's not the primary focus. To me, arrogance tends to imply an overexaggated sense of self. If it was someone who has not shown such a propensity, I would agree. But for people like LeBron, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, etc., who have proven they have that capability (and in the context of LeBron's statement) it's not an arrogant statement.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> the difference is that if durant made that statement it wouldn't be true. he can try as hard as he wants, but if lebron's going for it, lebron would win it.


I don't agree that LeBron is any better of a _scorer_ than Durant especially for the future. That's besides the fact that just because something is true, doesn't mean it's not arrogant. Do you agree with that?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)




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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Don't understand need to make sports all dramatic than anything other on the court/field etc. Some of you might as well watch soap operas.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Given the improvement that Durant's made since last year I'm not going to count him out for much offensively. Last year people were questioning his range and his shot selection. This year he's really made a huge improvement in both those facets. 

Still the way you react to this tells us a lot more about you than it says about Lebron. Everyone who watches the game knows perfectly well that what he said is verbatim the truth, that in fact he could win the scoring title if that was what he set out to do. Someone asked him a question and he answered it with something all of us knew. The fact that he will say this is only relevant if you're inclined to take offense to anything that Lebron say. Lebron will perhaps win the scoring title (again) simply playing within his own abilities and trying to help his team win games. So what he says is not the least bit outrageous unless you have some bias against him. Hell the same people always criticize him for trying not to say things which could be construed negatively.


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## Unique (Apr 13, 2005)

lekanye .. LMAO

i hope admins dont censor that like they did Le-Bronze


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I'm a huge LeBron fan but I just don't see eye to eye with you guys on this. If he came out and said he is one of the best players of all-time, or if he said nobody in the history of the game has played at the level he is playing right now, he wouldn't be lying. I would consider those arrogant statements, though. I guess ya'll wouldn't, since they're true. Different strokes.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

23AJ said:


> After watching Kobe drop 81 I sorta have to disagree.


Repped. I don't care how great you are, or how great you think you are, you don't make statements like this. Its arrogant, yes, but I don't have a problem with arrogance. What LeBron did here was disrespectful. I know he was talking about how winning 'chips are more important, when you make a statement like this you're calling other players out. Never have you heard a seriously great player ever come out and say 'yeah I'm the MVP.' When the MVP race was competitive, you always had other players that said players on the opposing team was the MVP, never themselves. Hell, Durant is so level-headed that he claims he isn't the MVP of his own team -- Westbrook is -- when Durant clearly is the team's MVP. LeBron's "me-first, I'm better than you, you suck" attitude is something I personally and plenty of mainstream Americans hate about pro sports. I have a hard time hard time rooting for a guy who doesn't shake hands and admit the better team won and then goes out and says he's the best. Especially when he's not.

Come back and talk to me when he scores 82.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

He's calling other people out by saying that scoring titles aren't as important to him as winning?


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

E.H. Munro said:


> He's calling other people out by saying that scoring titles aren't as important to him as winning?


Look at the title of the thread. He's calling other people out by saying "I can win scoring title if I feel like it"


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Did you even read the article?


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

E.H. Munro said:


> Did you even read the article?


Yes I read the article, but he's been in the league for 7 years now, he should know to watch his mouth. What you mean to say and what is communicated are two different things in the world today -- particularly when you're talking about sports and politics.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

So what you're saying is that you didn't actually understand what he was saying? I'm sorry, but the inability of people to understand simple English sentences isn't his fault. You can't live your life worrying that idiots might misinterpret your words.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

E.H. Munro said:


> So what you're saying is that you didn't actually understand what he was saying? I'm sorry, but the inability of people to understand simple English sentences isn't his fault. You can't live your life worrying that idiots might misinterpret your words.


I'm a realist.

"idiots might mistinterpt your words"

"the media (read: ESPN) might portray your words your to mainstream America this way"


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

ESPN didn't misinterpret his words, they basically quoted his comment that scoring titles were unimportant to him. And yet the usual suspects here have had a hategasm over it.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

If LeBron didn't pass the ball at all, or significantly less- he could probably average 35 ppg. But the object of the game is to win just like it is for every player. If Kobe froze out his teammates he could also win the scoring title. Of course, there are maybe 3-4 guys who you could put on the Cavs and would lead the league in scoring- if their objection was to score and not win.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Haha it's so funny. On the Cavs board the title of this thread is "Lebron says scoring title unimportant".
Over here it's "Lebron says he can lead league in scoring every year".

People see what they want to see.

Is Lebron arrogant? Yeah. In the same way that every player who is the top of their sport is arrogant. But you didn't need this article to know that. 

Plus most players to be successfull have incredible self-belief. There's a quote out there where Monta Ellis is saying he's the second best player in the league behind Kobe, ahead of Lebron.

Guys are just confident in what they do. That's what it is.


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

What Lebron meant was if he has the range and Free throw shooting cpapability of Durant, he would win scoring titles every year.

Lebron also said that if he wanted to, he can also win NBA title ever year, it is just that he is a generous guy and wants others to win it.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Haha it's so funny. On the Cavs board the title of this thread is "Lebron says scoring title unimportant".
> Over here it's "Lebron says he can lead league in scoring every year".
> 
> People see what they want to see.
> ...


Let's be fair here, Monta's pretty delusional.



E.H. Munro said:


> ESPN didn't misinterpret his words, they basically quoted his comment that scoring titles were unimportant to him. And yet the usual suspects here have had a hategasm over it.


And right on cue...



Theonee said:


> What Lebron meant was if he has the range and Free throw shooting cpapability of Durant, he would win scoring titles every year.
> 
> Lebron also said that if he wanted to, he can also win NBA title ever year, it is just that he is a generous guy and wants others to win it.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

If Kobe said this these same Lebrag riders would be all over it


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## Jesukki (Mar 3, 2009)

Actually Kobe said like couple years ago that he could average like 35 ppg if he wanted but it's not about that. And i think that 35 ppg would be enough for scoring title.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Organized Chaos said:


> Don't understand need to make sports all dramatic than anything other on the court/field etc. Some of you might as well watch soap operas.


Agreed, for some reason I'm actually surprised this thread got to post 50.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> Let's be fair here, Monta's pretty delusional.
> 
> 
> 
> And right on cue...


Here is a question, why do Monta and most current and especially FORMER NBA stars feel that Kobe is still better despite Lebron being more skilled? I think it has a lot to do with his LeBron's showmanship if you ask me.


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

Jesukki said:


> Actually Kobe said like couple years ago that he could average like 35 ppg if he wanted but it's not about that. And i think that 35 ppg would be enough for scoring title.


The difference is Lebron pretty much disrespected other NBA players. Lebron is saying he is better than anyone.

When you are better than anyone, you don't have to say it. People will know it.

I don't see Tiger saying I am better than anyone, if I want to I can win every tournament, I don't see Federer saying, I am better than everyone, if I want to I can beat everyone everytime.

Lebron is getting into Mayweather , David Haye category.

When he wins he gloats when he loses he cries and does not even shake opponents hands.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

E.H. Munro said:


> So what you're saying is that you didn't actually understand what he was saying? I'm sorry, but the inability of people to understand simple English sentences isn't his fault. You can't live your life worrying that idiots might misinterpret your words.


Agreed.



Jamel Irief said:


> Here is a question, why do Monta and most current and especially FORMER NBA stars feel that Kobe is still better despite Lebron being more skilled? I think it has a lot to do with his LeBron's showmanship if you ask me.


Former NBA stars generally don't watch or keep up with NBA basketball as well as they used to and Kobe won a championship and Finals MVP last year in addition to making the Finals before that which are great reasons to go for Bryant. Kobe also consistently makes it to the dirty players and trashtalking lists IIRC voted by the players.

You also see a lot of NBA stars, current and former, saying Lebron is hands down the best right now despite not having any rings. I remember some stupid article asking NBA players who they would want to be for a day and James was right at the top.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

Theonee said:


> Lebron is getting into Mayweather , David Haye category.


Far from it. Especially as boxing 'bragging' and basketball 'bragging' and complete different things.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Jakain said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Watch BBall in the 80's, they trash talked more than they do today by far. What you didn't see was a lot of posing after dunks, dances on the sidelines or grandstanding in the media. The players that did that (Chocolate Thunder anyone?) stood out like a sore thumb. 

And really I disagree with your assesment that most NBA players feel LeBron is the best today. Of course they would want him to be for a day because he is the most talented, but that's not the same thing.


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## Kaas (Apr 8, 2003)

People who have no problem with this are focusing on the message. People who are getting irritated focused on the delivery of the message.

I'm of the same mindset as Sir Patchwork. I don't really care that he said it. I believe it's true, but the way he said it was slightly cocky. Do I care that it was? No. But I'm not going to deny that some arrogance seeped through as he was trying to say something all elite team-sport athletes should say (team accomplishments > individual awards).


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

Yes LeBron can win the scoring title every year if he wanted. All he has to do is cut down his assists. Play selfish.

The scoring title means little. A championship and a FINALS MVP is what you want.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

Kaas said:


> People who have no problem with this are focusing on the message. People who are getting irritated focused on the delivery of the message.


Pretty much. People are trying too hard to find fault with it, just because it's LeBron James.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> Watch BBall in the 80's, they trash talked more than they do today by far. What you didn't see was a lot of posing after dunks, dances on the sidelines or grandstanding in the media. The players that did that (Chocolate Thunder anyone?) stood out like a sore thumb.


Yup except for the 'grandstanding in the media' part - just about every popular era of the NBA had that. "Showtime Lakers" anyone? Top star players always had a ton of media attention even quiet guys like Bird and Duncan. 

Lets not forget how Kobe has "negatively" used media in the past as well and imo I don't see how one can say Kobe has a better image or track-record in this regard (thats the vibe I'm getting here anyway). Throwing teammates under the bus, wanting to leave the Lakers, having his current teammates and coach talk to the media publicly about basically being a stat-padding ballhog this season (“Let’s get him over the hump, so we can play team ball again.” - Phil Jackson), etc. By comparison, Lebron is pretty tame. Both guys don't seem to be anywhere near as "cool-headed" and humble like Durant or Duncan though imo.



> And really I disagree with your assesment that most NBA players feel LeBron is the best today. Of course they would want him to be for a day because he is the most talented, but that's not the same thing.


NBA players, NBA sportswriters, sportscasters, and even those guys that are Kobe fans basically all point towards Lebron being the best. Head to head matchups, stats, age, wins, etc are all in the King's favor as well. Kobe does have the championships though and a Finals MVP.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Jakain said:


> Yup except for the 'grandstanding in the media' part - just about every popular era of the NBA had that. "Showtime Lakers" anyone? Top star players always had a ton of media attention even quiet guys like Bird and Duncan.
> 
> Lets not forget how Kobe has "negatively" used media in the past as well and imo I don't see how one can say Kobe has a better image or track-record in this regard (thats the vibe I'm getting here anyway). Throwing teammates under the bus, wanting to leave the Lakers, having his current teammates and coach talk to the media publicly about basically being a stat-padding ballhog this season (“Let’s get him over the hump, so we can play team ball again.” - Phil Jackson), etc. By comparison, Lebron is pretty tame. Both guys don't seem to be anywhere near as "cool-headed" and humble like Durant or Duncan though imo.


You are arguing points I didn't make. By grandstanding in the media I meant using the media to tell everyone how great he is. I didn't say it was WORST than throwing your teammates under the bus, etc but that LeBron does it and Kobe doesn't.



> NBA players, NBA sportswriters, sportscasters, and even those guys that are Kobe fans basically all point towards Lebron being the best. Head to head matchups, stats, age, wins, etc are all in the King's favor as well. Kobe does have the championships though and a Finals MVP.


Again, did I ever say Kobe was better? Please look at my posts in this thread before you waste my time with irrelevant points. Since you already read Monta's in the past month I have also heard Stuart Scott, Michael Wilbon, Jay Harris, Mike Breen and Deshawn Stevenson say he was better.

Which goes back to my theories that former players and current commentators respect Kobe more because of his work ethic and intensity and disdain James grandstanding. Any more responses from you not related to those points will be ignored by me. 

I never said Kobe was better, I never said Kobe was a saint.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Spaceman Spiff said:


> If Kobe said this these same Lebrag riders would be all over it


He did say something similar a couple of years ago. I don't think it was that big a deal. If he said it now there'd be an issue because he probably couldn't outscore the younger tier 1 players anymore. Not without killing the Lakers chances of winning. Essentially James is leading the league in scoring _without trying to win a scoring title_. I really don't think it would be all that difficult for him to swamp everyone if he were to burn up an extra 25% of his possessions on taking shots at the basket (a la Iverson). During his MVP year Iverson was burning up about 30 possessions a game shooting, James, on the other hand, burns fewer than 24 this year (for reference James is at 23.5 this year, Durant at 24.6).


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> Here is a question, why do Monta and most current and especially FORMER NBA stars feel that Kobe is still better despite Lebron being more skilled?


Probably for the same reason that they would have picked Dwyane Wade over Kobe a few years back. Wade was just a douchebag, and Kobe the douchebag that was the best player in the NBA.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

People are just tired of Lebron speaking so much... Always doing something random or controversial to keep his name in people's mouth. Just play the game bro.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

If he refused to give interviews all the usual suspects would call him "arrogant and doesn't understand that this game is about the fans!" and if he only gave vanilla pablum quotes they'd shriek "He's too chicken****! If he really believed he was good he'd speak his mind!". But even when he does speak his mind, and say that winning means more to him than any individual accolade, they still shriek. The thing is, the usual suspects are going to cry like spoiled six year olds no matter what, so he may as well have fun.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

^Okay, so what? If he doesn't win it, it's just because he didn't feel like winning it this particular yr?? Just a dumb statement to make, bro. This guy needs his ego stroked 24/7, and if people aren't talking about him, he pulls another pointless statement or stunt out his *** to keep his name ppl's mouth... 

Im personally tired of ppl talking about this guys dumb antics. Just play the game, Bro. It doesn't matter what you could or couldn't do 'if you feel like it'. Im sure you could league the league in scoring 5 yrs in a row, but if you dont do it, then wtf cares....


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Blue Magic said:


> ^Okay, so what? If he doesn't win it, it's just because he didn't feel like winning it this particular yr??


I think the answer is implicit in his statement that he doesn't care about it one way or the other. You may think that saying that all he cares about is winning an NBA title is stupid, but I think Cavs fans are probably happy that his singular focus is on winning. Mind you, he's no Courtney Lee...


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Here is a question, why do Monta and most current and especially FORMER NBA stars feel that Kobe is still better despite Lebron being more skilled? I think it has a lot to do with his LeBron's showmanship if you ask me.


It's a generational thing. Monta Ellis and most of his ilk (Dwight Howard, Lebron, Dwade, Chris Paul) that generation of players grew up watching Kobe win titles with the Lakers. For them he was like watching MJ for us. So he gets that fear and reverence. 

Whereas Lebron is the same age or younger as most of his peers, so is less likely to be held in regard because they consider him just one of them.

It's the same as in the 80s MJ wasn't given his due from Magic, Barkley, Bird, or Isiah and all of them. It wasn't until around the Dream Team that you really started to see these guys give Jordan his due. He was 29 then.

When Lebron is Kobe's age, he'll have people's respect a lot more.

That's just how it works. It's only been the last year or so that you've seen guys comfortable with even calling Lebron the best player in the game.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

E.H. Munro said:


> I think the answer is implicit in his statement that he doesn't care about it one way or the other. You may think that saying that all he cares about is winning an NBA title is stupid, but I think Cavs fans are probably happy that his singular focus is on winning. Mind you, he's no Courtney Lee...


The elephant in the room is, Scoring and Winning is not mutually exclusive... Scoring is apart of winning games, whereas, you're making it out to be a detriment, or like scoring is equivalent to a turnover... If you can lead the league in scoring, then go out and do(which he is doing anyway), dont talk about how you could if you wanted to... That is irrelavent, and a pointless statement to make.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> The elephant in the room is, Scoring and Winning is not mutually exclusive... Scoring is apart of winning games, whereas, you're making it out to be a detriment, or like scoring is equivalent to a turnover... If you can lead the league in scoring, then go out and do(which he is doing anyway), dont talk about how you could if you wanted to... That is irrelavent, and a pointless statement to make.


It depends if you are scoring efficiently or not, whether it leads to winning or not.
They score a lot of points in Golden State. They don't win a lot though.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

“ If I really wanted to be the scoring [champion] every single year -- every single year -- I could really do it. But it doesn't matter.” 
-- LeBron James

Lol. 
Let's just hope you don't come short - again - on your "apparent" desire for a ring. Cause you really are putting yourself you for a fall, mr. LeBraggs.


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## Seanzie (Jun 9, 2003)

You can always tell how great a player is by the number of haters he has.

LeBron must be approaching MJ status.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Seanzie said:


> You can always tell how great a player is by the number of haters he has.
> 
> LeBron must be approaching MJ status.


I remember before LeBron was drafted I said he would one day be hated as much as Kobe just due to the amount of attention he will get.

I wish I could find that thread.


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

I wouldn't say he's hated, as much as people are just disgusted because of his arrogance. For the most part it seems people still like him as a player... just wish he'd not go outright and say he can win the scoring title every year.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Michael Jordan must of been really good!! 10x NBA scoring champ 6x Finals MVP winner. 

LeBron James, what a ****ing cut-up.


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## Seanzie (Jun 9, 2003)

Here's the point that all the people who are so upset about everything LeBron says and does are missing: every great athlete is arrogant.

If someone on your favorite team would have said something in the same vein, what would you say? You'd defend him as a winner who cares less about ball-hogging and numbers and more about doing what it takes to win a championship. Instead it's "OH LEBRON THINKS HE COULD WIN THE SCORING TITLE WHEN HE WANTS OMFG WHAT AN ARROGANT *****."

Name me a player that doesn't think he could and I'll show you a player who's not very good.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

If Dwight Howard said, 'I could lead the league in blocks if I feel like it', I wouldn't label him a winner because of that statement bro. If Bogut somehow edged him out for the title, but Dwight claimed it was just for the betterment of the team that he didn't win it, I wouldn't buy it... I wouldn't care. If you think you can do it, than do it. Otherwise it doesn't matter, so spare me the lip service. 

It's just a pointless statement, to try and rub in the fact to the media that he's a 'winner'... Remember he didn't shake hands after the playoff loss, because 'he's a winner'. Give me a break bro, just play the game and be yourself... Spare me all the other BS stunts and antics. This guys is always pulling something to keep his name in the spotlight, and it's getting old. Im not buying it. This 'I'm a winner' act is getting stale. Go out and prove it, or stop speaking so much. Kobe can speak cause he's won 4 rings, MJ could speak cause he won 6 rings, LBJ seems not to know his place.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Rondo said he could average more steals if he gambled all the time, so is he taking digs at anyone?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> Rondo said he could average more steals if he gambled all the time, so is he taking digs at anyone?


Did he say more steals than anyone else?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> Did he say more steals than anyone else?


You tell me. There isn't even an argument that Rondo is the most arrogant player in the NBA as he thinks he's head & shoulders above both Chris Paul and Deron Williams. But that doesn't seem to send Magic & Laker fans into paroxysms of masturbational fury as James claim that the scoring title isn't important to him.


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

Seriously, almost everyone agrees and knows that he is the best player in the league. I am a huge Laker and Kobe fan, and I think Lebron is head and shoulders above anyone in the league.
It is just that he doesnot have to remind everyone, because when someone is great, people know they are great, they don't have to announce it.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> You tell me. There isn't even an argument that Rondo is the most arrogant player in the NBA as he thinks he's head & shoulders above both Chris Paul and Deron Williams. But that doesn't seem to send Magic & Laker fans into paroxysms of masturbational fury as James claim that the scoring title isn't important to him.


I didn't ask you if he lead the league in steals, I asked you if he said he could do it every year. I never said he wasn't arrogant either. 

I think you miscategorize my posts in this thread as "fury" when you probably are more obsessed with mocking Pau Gasol. I can just picture you in rage every time his hair is flopping around on TV as he complains to the refs.

You have more reason to hate LeBron than anyone else. No matter what eastern conference team lands him this offseason he will no doubt keep the celtics irrelevant for another 20 years as the geezers get older and bufoons like Rondo, Perkins and Allen are in control.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> If Dwight Howard said, 'I could lead the league in blocks if I feel like it', I wouldn't label him a winner because of that statement bro.


What a ridiculous analogy. As if getting a lot of blocks somehow equates to someone taking a lot of shots.


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> I didn't ask you if he lead the league in steals, I asked you if he said he could do it every year. I never said he wasn't arrogant either.
> 
> I think you miscategorize my posts in this thread as "fury" when you probably are more obsessed with mocking Pau Gasol. I can just picture you in rage every time his hair is flopping around on TV as he complains to the refs.
> 
> You have more reason to hate LeBron than anyone else. No matter what eastern conference team lands him this offseason he will no doubt keep the celtics irrelevant for another 20 years as the geezers get older and bufoons like Rondo, Perkins and Allen are in control.


:laugh:


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> You are arguing points I didn't make. By grandstanding in the media I meant using the media to tell everyone how great he is. I didn't say it was WORST than throwing your teammates under the bus, etc but that LeBron does it and Kobe doesn't.


Sorry, was getting that "Kobe > Lebron" vibe from that post. 

And sorry, Kobe is pretty cocky as well and has grandstanded a few times in addition to basically being called out as a stadpadding ballhog by his coach and teammates this season and the other ****ty instances he's used the media:



> Sports Illustrated"
> Asked what his MVP ballot would look like, Bryant says, “I’m not even thinking about that.” But when somebody mentions that the Cleveland Cavaliers’ James is a favorite because he’s a near one-man team, Bryant, who was averaging 28.1 points, 6.1 rebounds and 5.3 assists through Sunday, snaps, “Put me in the East and see what happens.”





> Again, did I ever say Kobe was better? Please look at my posts in this thread before you waste my time with irrelevant points. Since you already read Monta's in the past month I have also heard Stuart Scott, Michael Wilbon, Jay Harris, Mike Breen and Deshawn Stevenson say he was better.
> 
> Which goes back to my theories that former players and current commentators respect Kobe more because of his work ethic and intensity and disdain James grandstanding. Any more responses from you not related to those points will be ignored by me.
> 
> I never said Kobe was better, I never said Kobe was a saint.


You basically were insinuating that Kobe is better by pointing out that some NBA players thought so. I raise all those names you mention by going with Larry Bird who said James might go down as the greatest of all time and this is a guy whose given similar respect to MJ and even Kobe. Basically every broadcaster that calls a game with Lebron James usually goes on about how he's the best player in the league today and likely one of the best ever.

And while Kobe's work ethic is great; I very much doubt thats a major reason why he's liked - its the championships and his MJ-esque style of play imo. I wonder what Lebron's work ethic is like and even if Kobe is "respected more" than Lebron he's still on track to win back to back MVPs. Also gotta wonder how that nasty rape incident and the negative ways he's utilized the media sits on the back of people's minds when you talk about things like respect.

Agreed that Kobe definitely isn't better and far from a saint. Although technically you didn't say that he isn't, more insinuation


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## Seanzie (Jun 9, 2003)

He was answering a question. It's not like he was unprovoked and just said, "I can win the scoring title if I feel like it." Do you think that ESPN just pulls these quotes out of nowhere? No, they ask questions and players are often honest about how they feel about their abilities.

If someone said, "Hey Dwight, how important is leading the league in blocks to you?" and he answered honestly, he would probably say "Not very, I'm more focused on winning a championship," which, mind you, is exactly what LeBron said.

Sure, he did say, "I could win the scoring title every year if I wanted," but all elite players feel that way. 

God, some of you are so ****ing stupid it really blows my mind. But hate on all you want. LeBron will continue to be the best player in the league, win scoring titles, and probably win multiple championships. 

Cry on haters, cry on.


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## Futurama_Fanatic (Jul 21, 2005)

to quote Jamel, why is there a 2 page thread on a TMZ subject? if you think Lekanye is a egotistical douche bag, you're probably right because he's a player in a professional league. most are arrogant douchebags, regardless of team. Kobe, Wade, Melo, etc. even Corey Maggette has 15 televisions in one of his cars. just the way it is.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> I didn't ask you if he lead the league in steals, I asked you if he said he could do it every year.


I think you're splitting hairs here. When the league leader says that he could average a lot more if really wanted to (and as he already gambles on pretty much every play I'm not sure that it's actually possible) then he's basically saying that there's no one near as good as he is. 



Jamel Irief said:


> I think you miscategorize my posts in this thread as "fury" when you probably are more obsessed with mocking Pau Gasol.


I wasn't actually directing that remark at you so much as the people that have been posting diatribes in this thread. And mocking ***** Galore is fun. Just like mocking Sideshow Bob is fun. I also mock AK-47, Lousiana Fats (since he no longer wants to be Big Baby), the Big Lazy, Yi Jianlian (aka the BFCD), and a host of others. You probably only notice the Gasol stuff because you Laker fans are terribly insecure.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Futurama_Fanatic said:


> if you think Lekanye is a egotistical douche bag, you're probably right because he's a player in a professional league. most are arrogant douchebags, regardless of team. Kobe, Wade, Melo, etc. even Corey Maggette has 15 televisions in one of his cars. just the way it is.


How dare you bring common sense to a thread about LeBron hate! For shame, sir! For shame!


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Futurama_Fanatic said:


> to quote Jamel, why is there a 2 page thread on a TMZ subject? if you think Lekanye is a egotistical douche bag, you're probably right because he's a player in a professional league. most are arrogant douchebags, regardless of team. Kobe, Wade, Melo, etc. even Corey Maggette has 15 televisions in one of his cars. just the way it is.


Exactly, which goes back to the point I made before he was drafted, people will end up hating him over time the bigger his profile gets.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Seanzie said:


> He was answering a question. It's not like he was unprovoked and just said, "I can win the scoring title if I feel like it." Do you think that ESPN just pulls these quotes out of nowhere? No, they ask questions and players are often honest about how they feel about their abilities.
> 
> If someone said, "Hey Dwight, how important is leading the league in blocks to you?" and he answered honestly, he would probably say "Not very, I'm more focused on winning a championship," which, mind you, is exactly what LeBron said.
> 
> ...


There's nothing wrong with the 1st quote... I haven't read the article so I dont know what LeBron was asked, but all I see is the quote in the title and about 7 pages of banter over a dumb statement... A quote which comes off to me as incredibly pointless and arrogant. I think this comes down to people just being tired of Lebron speaking so much about 'being a winner', and want actually see him win something. 

I mean he's practically shooting 50% from the feild and can get his shot off at will. If all he needs is .2 points to win the scoring title, then go out and do it. Otherwise, I dont care what you couldve done... Everybody in this league could go out their way to get certain stats 'if they really wanted to', so that isn't saying much. Just like the Cavs, others guys also play within a team. There's nothing wrong with winning, but that quote is just a pointless statement to make. It accomplishes nothing but to try and show how much of a 'winner' he is, and it comes off like he thinks he's sacrificing more than others. Im just tired of him talking, until I actually see him step up and win something. Period.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

my two cents on this whole scenario. Some of you peoples arguments are as useful as a chocolate tea kettle, blind hate and exaggeration of quotes is commonplace on message boards but this is ridiculous. Lebron james is the best basketball player in the league, and one of the best scorers, him claiming he could win every year isnt exactly stretching the truth. He didn't divulge into something about him being able to win an MVP every season, which he could do as well, which would have been a much more arrogant statement. Simply claiming he could win the scoring title but admitting it would come as a detriment to his team seems to be a pretty level headed and honest statement to me. 

Also, I think people need to put into perspective what Lebron hasn't "won" granted, he hasn't won an NBA title, but realistically, I believe dynastys in the NBA are going to be much harder to come by in the future, and as such, being able to carry your team to an eastern conference championship and being the second best team in the league should hold merit. Runner up's in the NFL and MLB are given their dues, and we need to start viewing NBA teams that way as well in my opinion. I also am very curious as to what kind of arguments and legitimate hatred are going to arise and actually have relevance once Lebron wins a title(s), because i think we all know its an inevitability.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

I also find it particularly funny that Lebron probably WILL win the scoring title this year, and it didn't even come as a result of compromising his teams wins, their probably gonna win 65 and head into the playoffs with the best record in the league!! Lebron is 6th in the league in a.p.g., you gonna tell me if he took those possesions and kept the ball in his hand he couldn't tack on a couple more points every night and be a consistent 32-33 ppg kinda guy... and that still probably wouldn't even compromise his team that bad?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

The thing that actually holds down Lebron's scoring is that he's never played for a high pace team and that he's never played with anyone who ever got him an easy basket. If Cleveland was to get a legitimate pg who could find Lebron in the open court he could easily score in the thirties without changing anything else about his game. James is essentially unstoppable in transition, because guards balance the floor in basketball and there just aren't any guards who're really going to hinder him much on the run.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Futurama_Fanatic said:


> if you think Lekanye is a egotistical douche bag, you're probably right because he's a player in a professional league. most are arrogant douchebags, regardless of team. Kobe, Wade, Melo, etc. even Corey Maggette has 15 televisions in one of his cars. just the way it is.


Exactly right. That's why it's funny that people are actually pretending like it's not an arrogant statement. HE IS JUST TELLING THE TRUTH! Right. Professional athletes are arrogant. This statement was arrogant. People will get over it real quick when these delusional fans can admit that their heroes are most likely douchebags who say things all the time like LeBron did.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> Im just tired of him talking, until I actually see him step up and win something. Period.


Ditto with Dwight Howard and him complaining about refs and SVG.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Personally I just assume that Lebron is one of the handful of people who realize that Lebron is a good basketball player. I could care less if other people think he's arrogant. If I was as good as he is I probably wouldn't be able to stand myself.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> I think you're splitting hairs here. When the league leader says that he could average a lot more if really wanted to (and as he already gambles on pretty much every play I'm not sure that it's actually possible) then he's basically saying that there's no one near as good as he is.


LeBron didn't say he could put up more points if shot more.



> I wasn't actually directing that remark at you so much as the people that have been posting diatribes in this thread. And mocking ***** Galore is fun. Just like mocking Sideshow Bob is fun. I also mock AK-47, Lousiana Fats (since he no longer wants to be Big Baby), the Big Lazy, Yi Jianlian (aka the BFCD), and a host of others. You probably only notice the Gasol stuff because you Laker fans are terribly insecure.


That's the thing, you are one of the biggest haters on here. When you do it you want it to be in good fun but when someone hates on Lebron you come to his aid like your name is futuristxen. And then you just ignore the merits of any possible argument and claim opinions to be team-affaliation related. What ill-will has Lebron caused to the Lakers??

I can see why Celtics fans hate Gasol, since he will be on the podium celebrating when the Lakers get championship 17 and all.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Exactly right. That's why it's funny that people are actually pretending like it's not an arrogant statement. HE IS JUST TELLING THE TRUTH! Right. Professional athletes are arrogant. This statement was arrogant. People will get over it real quick when these delusional fans can admit that their heroes are most likely douchebags who say things all the time like LeBron did.


That's one thing i don't get about you crazy americans. Why do you people fear "calling the kettle black" regarding your favourite athletes?
Yes, LeBraggs is arrogant. And not the brightest tool in the shed, too. Jordan was arrogant. Kobe Bryant. Larry Bird. Etc., etc..
Saying something like "he is justifiably (sp?) arrogant" doesn't deny the arrogance.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> That's the thing, you are one of the biggest haters on here.


Unless they play for Boston, I don't really hate them. It's when Wally Szczerbiak Szczuperstar was a Celtic that I truly hated him (just as Louisiana Fats drives me to distraction now.



Jamel Irief said:


> When you do it you want it to be in good fun but when someone hates on Lebron you come to his aid like your name is futuristxen. And then you just ignore the merits of any possible argument and claim opinions to be team-affaliation related. What ill-will has Lebron caused to the Lakers??


Thank you for proving my point about Laker fans. I also defend Mr. Bean when people start tossing about ridiculous accusations about him. I similarly laugh at diatribes aimed at other great players, and do so publicly. Hell, I defended Jason Kidd in that whole Harris/Kidd reconsidered thread. But, of course, you Laker fans only see ***** Galore, LeBron, and your fears that the Cavs might win the title this year.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jakain said:


> Ditto with Dwight Howard and him complaining about refs and SVG.


Is that cocky? People always say Dwight needed a mean streak, now they're mad he finally got one and gets too many T's... haha. 

EDIT: But touche! Dwight does need to win something, I can see and admit that as a fan. He needs to stay humble and continue to put work into his game. Demand the ball and lead this team, and everything else will come.


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## motimeabg (May 15, 2006)

SEEE THIS is the difference between the GOAT Mohammad Ali and the rest arrogant annoying as hell morons in Michael Jordan, Lebron James and the lot.

Muhammad Ali could say the most arrogant things imaginable, but you knew deep down inside this was a man as humble as could be and damn down to earth.

Then you have the Jordans and Lebrons who TRY SO hard to sound humble and grounded yet every now and then, this crap pops up because its simply a reflection of what they really are.

I dont blame them, I am sure they are good people and great athletes, but this is why Muhammad Ali is the greatest sportsman of all time, the greatest sports personality of all time and Jordan has just been an over hyped commercialized role model who is annoying as heck.

Just look at his hall of fame speech... are you kidding me?


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

Is Lebron's "arrogance" or "cockiness" any less than Bird or Jordan??? Don't give me the crap that he hasn't proved as much as those guys. Individually he is up there. Rings he is not but tell me when did Lebron play with other HOFers during their primes? Out of basketball yes Bird and Jordan are such great human beings...I actually think fans today are more "sensitive" than in the past when trash talk and hard fouls were part of the game and its culture. 

Anyways, Lebron is right. He could win the scoring title if he really wanted to. Kobe can say the same thing. Plus look at the entire context of his comments.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Muhammed Ali started making loud noises after appearing on a talk show with wrestler (and psychologist) Gorgeous George. He quickly realized that there was money to be made in being loud and playfully obnoxious. Before he realized there was money to be made from making a spectacle of himself he was just a boxer. The entire thing was a brilliant marketing campaign he ripped off from a professional wrestler. It's even likely that backstage Gorgeous George explained the playbook to him, how to make sure that the appropriate number of people both loved and hated you for example.


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## motimeabg (May 15, 2006)

Diable said:


> Muhammed Ali started making loud noises after appearing on a talk show with wrestler (and psychologist) Gorgeous George. He quickly realized that there was money to be made in being loud and playfully obnoxious. Before he realized there was money to be made from making a spectacle of himself he was just a boxer. The entire thing was a brilliant marketing campaign he ripped off from a professional wrestler. It's even likely that backstage Gorgeous George explained the playbook to him, how to make sure that the appropriate number of people both loved and hated you for example.


Yeah I have read and heard about this, he was just a normal boxer before. I doubt Gorgeous George really explained the playbook to Ali, I think just the idea on the surface appealed to Ali and he ran with it. It was his genius that actually made it work so beautifully, its an incredibly hard thing to do and you wouldn't really be able to do with without the charisma, humor and mental toughness he possessed.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Why do so many people care about whether Lebron is a good guy or not? It's not TMZ, it's the NBA. All that mattters is what happens on the court. Lebron's not trying to be Obama.

Basketball players aren't role models.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Why do so many people care about whether Lebron is a good guy or not? It's not TMZ, it's the NBA. All that mattters is what happens on the court. Lebron's not trying to be Obama.
> 
> Basketball players aren't role models.


I don't think anyone cares, it's when fans try to pretend they *are* good guys and bend over backwards to defend and justify arrogant crap they do and say.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

I don't mind cockiness, but hey -- at least win maybe just one finals game before you start talking ****?

okay?

thanks.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

This year it's his assists numbers that are eye popping not his scoring.

He's set to set a new NBA record for most APG by a small forward. Obliterating Bird who held the previous record.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> This year it's his assists numbers that are eye popping not his scoring.
> 
> He's set to set a new NBA record for most APG by a small forward. Obliterating Bird who held the previous record.


LeBron is scary good this year. Better than Bird ever was. I can't wait until the playoffs to see them squash the Magic because of I'm sick of Magic fans talking him down.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Diable said:


> Muhammed Ali started making loud noises after appearing on a talk show with wrestler (and psychologist) Gorgeous George. He quickly realized that there was money to be made in being loud and playfully obnoxious. Before he realized there was money to be made from making a spectacle of himself he was just a boxer. The entire thing was a brilliant marketing campaign he ripped off from a professional wrestler. It's even likely that backstage Gorgeous George explained the playbook to him, how to make sure that the appropriate number of people both loved and hated you for example.


Same thign with Floyd Mayweather pretty much. Now even people who hate him pay for his fights.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> LeBron is scary good this year. *Better than Bird ever was.* I can't wait until the playoffs to see them squash the Magic because of I'm sick of Magic fans talking him down.


I'm never wrong regarding the NBA. But if there should be a time i'm really wrong, i hope it's my pick for the Crabs to win the championship thsi year.
And if THAT happens, i'll make you eat those words, PAtches!


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Why do so many people care about whether Lebron is a good guy or not? It's not TMZ, it's the NBA. All that mattters is what happens on the court. Lebron's not trying to be Obama.
> 
> Basketball players aren't role models.


They aren't role models? 

Then why do they try to sell us shoes and car insurance? Do you even have the slightest understanding of what a role model is? Because it doesn't seem as though you do.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> I'm never wrong regarding the NBA. But if there should be a time i'm really wrong, i hope it's my pick for the Crabs to win the championship thsi year.
> And if THAT happens, i'll make you eat those words, PAtches!


I'm sorry Paulo, I know you love your magic birds. If it makes you feel any better, if the Cavs lose and LeBron still performs like he has been (and like he did last year in the playoffs), my argument won't change. The only way I'd have to put my words on hold is if he "choked" and performed terribly individually. You know titles don't make the player in my book.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

R-Star said:


> They aren't role models?
> 
> Then why do they try to sell us shoes and car insurance? Do you even have the slightest understanding of what a role model is? Because it doesn't seem as though you do.


Seriously? They try to sell us things because they are celebrities. Celebrities are people whose lives we take an interest in because of things they've done in front of the media. A role model, conversely is someone who is held up as a person who is exhibiting social behaviors that society deems as valuable for other's to emulate. 

Considering most athletes have the social behaviors of perverted sex fiend drug addicts--I don't think it's really fair to hold them up as people whose personal behavior deserves the level of valorization that a role model does. Kids wanted to play like Michael Jordan on the basketball court. They didn't want to have a vicious gambling habit, and cheat on their wives off it.

Basketball players are entertainers as much as anything, and anyone using them as role models for behavior may need their head examined.

I'm saying they aren't role models because they do not perform behaviors that are valuable to social mores. 

You want to put dudes like this on a pedastal, don't be shocked when they end up being rapists and adulterers. 

Lebron James should no more be a role model than Brad Pitt.

Also what's up with your condescending response? If you're going to be condescending, wouldn't you at least want to know about what you're talking about? Or are you just being mean for the sake of it?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Seriously? They try to sell us things because they are celebrities. Celebrities are people whose lives we take an interest in because of things they've done in front of the media. A role model, conversely is someone who is held up as a person who is exhibiting social behaviors that society deems as valuable for other's to emulate.
> 
> Considering most athletes have the social behaviors of perverted sex fiend drug addicts--I don't think it's really fair to hold them up as people whose personal behavior deserves the level of valorization that a role model does. Kids wanted to play like Michael Jordan on the basketball court. They didn't want to have a vicious gambling habit, and cheat on their wives off it.
> 
> ...


I doesn't matter if you or mean think they should be role models. There's thousands of kids with Lebron posters up on their wall, listening to everything he says and emulating it.
Reggie Miller was my role model for basketball growing up, and I grew up cocky as ****. Just like my pal Reg. 

Kids don't pick up a paper and say "Hey, that guy who is working on a cure for cancer is a hell of a guy. I want to be like him when I grow up." They want to be like Will Smith from his latest movies, Lebron James because hes a basketball god and charismatic, or whatever flavor of the month garbage they hear on MTV.

Athletes and celebrities are role models and there really isn't much of a debate to be had on the subject. While I agree they aren't the paragons people should be looking up to, it doesn't really matter. Kids will emulate Lebron and everything he does, even though there are far more deserving people to look up to in society.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

R-Star said:


> I doesn't matter if you or mean think they should be role models. There's thousands of kids with Lebron posters up on their wall, listening to everything he says and emulating it.
> Reggie Miller was my role model for basketball growing up, and I grew up cocky as ****. Just like my pal Reg.
> 
> Kids don't pick up a paper and say "Hey, that guy who is working on a cure for cancer is a hell of a guy. I want to be like him when I grow up." They want to be like Will Smith from his latest movies, Lebron James because hes a basketball god and charismatic, or whatever flavor of the month garbage they hear on MTV.
> ...


Then I think that's the misunderstanding. I'm saying athletes aren't role models in the sense that they don't have the attributes necessary to really be effective role models to anyone that doesn't know them. I'm critiquing the idea that they are treated as role models, not saying that they aren't falsely put on that pedestal.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I'm sorry Paulo, I know you love your magic birds. If it makes you feel any better, if the Cavs lose and LeBron still performs like he has been (and like he did last year in the playoffs), my argument won't change. The only way I'd have to put my words on hold is if he "choked" and performed terribly individually. You know titles don't make the player in my book.


Yeah, we got different views on that.
Given the stratospheric (sp?) level of play LeBraggs has showned, regular season is kid's play. It's like when Kobe was joking around getting 40ppg on a month. that doesn't matter.
To these guys, only playoffs matter.
And if LeBraggs puts up great stas, again, and his loses, again, one must start to wander... Could it be his teammates' fault yet another year? Or something is just no right? 
Great players understand the game. That's why Cedric Maxwell and James Worthy (NOT the best players on their teams) won Finals MVP.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> I'm [strike]never[/strike] generally wrong regarding the NBA.


There, fixed that for you.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Why do so many people care about whether Lebron is a good guy or not? It's not TMZ, it's the NBA. All that mattters is what happens on the court. Lebron's not trying to be Obama.
> 
> Basketball players aren't role models.


Same reason people like you hate/hated Kobe.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> Same reason people like you hate/hated Kobe.


being accused of being arrogant or being accused of rape(while cheating on your wife). yep, same deal.

though to be fair, yes, a lot of it is the same reason(he's too good and doesn't played for their favorite team). kobe just gave people a more legitimate reason if they wanted it.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> being accused of being arrogant or being accused of rape(while cheating on your wife). yep, same deal.


Kobe was hated just as much pre-2004, so the rape thing didn't really change anything.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

I think Lebron wasnt as hated as Kobe back then. Lebron is the best coast to coast basketball player and he has the best supporting casts he ever can get to fully help him to do his job. But at the same time, Another Parker and Shaq while both help on defense, they will hurt you in the offense in closing moments when James will have to operate in the middle. That's what Kobe who is easier to get a shot off in limited spacing is more vaulable than James in NBA finals matchup. If you look at Jordan, it wasnt getting to the hoop, it's his mid-range jumper.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

E.H. Munro said:


> There, fixed that for you.


You creepy old man, you! 
Lay off, dude, just like your Posers are done for the next decade or so!


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Then I think that's the misunderstanding. I'm saying athletes aren't role models in the sense that they don't have the attributes necessary to really be effective role models to anyone that doesn't know them. I'm critiquing the idea that they are treated as role models, not saying that they aren't falsely put on that pedestal.


Tiger Woods knows hes a role model, so did Jordan. Kobe knows kids look up to him. Lebron is a role model, knows it, and should act like one.

The whole "Why should the poor guy have to be a role model? He didn't ask for it?" disgusts me. It comes with making multimillions of dollars.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> You creepy old man, you!
> Lay off, dude, just like your Posers are done for the next decade or so!


That's about as good a guarantee that they'll be back as they can get...


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

rocketeer said:


> being accused of being arrogant or being accused of rape(while cheating on your wife). yep, same deal.
> 
> though to be fair, yes, a lot of it is the same reason(he's too good and doesn't played for their favorite team). kobe just gave people a more legitimate reason if they wanted it.


 
No. The reason people hated Kobe was the fact that he thought he was the sh*t coming out and every bit as good as he turned out to be. It didn't help whatsoever that Michael Jordan was still in the NBA and still the man, so people didn't want to see this 17 year old kid with this swagger out there trying to go shot for shot with MJ. People then hated him because they felt he was trying to be Jordan and that he won three titles so early.

Lebron can be so goofy it's disarming to people. If he came out with that same mindset (straight up killer) more people would hate him.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

R-Star said:


> Tiger Woods knows hes a role model, so did Jordan. Kobe knows kids look up to him.


You've picked about the three worst examples you could possibly find, three of the biggest douchebags ever to make a living as athletes. And not quiet douchebags like Wade or James (because neither publicly cavort with drugs, whores or the law), but publicly undisputed douchebags. Well, Tiger used to be a quiet douchebag, but that came to a rather spectacular, messy, and hilarious end of late.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Lebron is right....


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> LeBron is scary good this year. Better than Bird ever was. I can't wait until the playoffs to see them squash the Magic because of I'm sick of Magic fans talking him down.


I mean. Did I say anything wrong in that statement?

The "best player in the league" has yet to win a finals game.


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## Jesukki (Mar 3, 2009)

Game3525 said:


> Lebron is right....


No he isn't. KD, Melo, Wade and Kobe could all win the scoring title. Lebron thinks he's the only one. I believe if Kobe and Lebron would go and try to get the scoring title Kobe would won. But his FG would be lower than Lebron's.
Cuz Kobe goes to the line fever times and get's his points by jumpers.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

PauloCatarino said:


> Yeah, we got different views on that.
> Given the stratospheric (sp?) level of play LeBraggs has showned, regular season is kid's play. It's like when Kobe was joking around getting 40ppg on a month. that doesn't matter.
> To these guys, only playoffs matter.
> And if LeBraggs puts up great stas, again, and his loses, again, *one must start to wander... Could it be his teammates' fault yet another year? Or something is just no right? *
> Great players understand the game. That's why Cedric Maxwell and James Worthy (NOT the best players on their teams) won Finals MVP.


I've been waiting for someone else to start saying this.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

You know, the Magic are such a likable team. They deserve better fans.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

E.H. Munro said:


> You know, the Magic are such a likable team. They deserve better fans.


Shouldn't moderators not make pretty blatant personal attacks?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Duck34234 said:


> The "best player in the league" has yet to win a finals game.


Is this a matter-of-fact observation, or does it mean something? If it means something, tell us. Form a conclusion. He has yet to win a finals game, which means that... 

If you're just making observations, that's cool too. Yao Ming is tall. Shaquille O'Neal is strong.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Is this a matter-of-fact observation, or does it mean something? If it means something, tell us. Form a conclusion. He has yet to win a finals game, which means that...
> 
> If you're just making observations, that's cool too. Yao Ming is tall. Shaquille O'Neal is strong.


It seems that everyone's definition of "greatness" has been degraded into how many flashy passes, ESPN highlights and regular season wins a team (or in this case, a player -- according to some of you) accrues over the course of a regular season game. "Greatness" is predicated around winning Championships and getting your team to perform in the postseason at a level necessary of winning it all. Clearly, my argument is: being as LeBron has yet to even win a Finals game, better yet a single Championship, he's called the greatest player in the league? Seems a bit silly to me.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Duck34234 said:


> Clearly, my argument is: being as LeBron has yet to even win a Finals game, better yet a single Championship, he's called the greatest player in the league? Seems a bit silly to me.


So until Dwight Howard wins a title, he isn't as good as Kevin Garnett?


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> So until Dwight Howard wins a title, he isn't as good as Kevin Garnett?


The underlying assumption that most should be able to recognize is that Kevin Garnett didn't win a title as the clear-cut number one option on that Celtics team. Although he couldn't get it done in Minnesota as the #1 option, he was afforded the opportunity to be part of a great team, win a title, and cement his legacy as a great player. He sucked it up, and essentially admitted he couldn't do it as the clear cut #1 by teaming up with Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. Basketball is a team sport, so I'm fine with this -- in fact, I encourage it. Dwight is in a similar (but not identical) situation that KG was in with Minnesota. MVP candidate, DPOTY, but he couldn't pull it out in the playoffs. Dwight hasn't yet either -- never will you find me stating Dwight is the best, or even the most valuable player in the league. I merely ask for his consideration and claim that its a closer race than what people perceive it to be. 

Personally, I think the best player in the league is Kobe. He's won a championship as the first option for the (albeit, very talented) Lakers club. Clearly, the number of championships one possesses is not the end all-be all of basketball. I'm not looking at Robert Horry as one of the all time greats. But I believe people undervalue Kobe's experience and poise and overvalue LeBron's talent. 

I believe more people should take a page out of NCAA basketball. Kentucky's team of phenoms is sitting at home watching Coach K's upperclass compete in the Final Four.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Ps -- thank you for attacking my argument.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Well Kobe vs. LeBron is basically Bird vs. Jordan circa the mid-to-late 80's. Everyone knew that Jordan was better than Bird, and Bird himself wouldn't have denied it, but Bird was on a stacked team and Jordan simply wasn't. Bird had titles. Bird had "experience and poise" while people were (unfairly) holding it against Jordan until he won a title. 

If you and others want to hold LeBron back until his team wins a title, then by all means. I don't need to see that happen to know who the greatest basketball player on the planet is. 

You know a guy is great when you can't even knock a single thing about his game. Kobe has bad shot selection, Howard has no post offense, Durant needs to get stronger, Wade needs to improve his outside shot. LeBron needs to...have his team win a title. Sorry but that's lame. It would make his legacy more glossy with titles but honestly it doesn't change a damn thing about his individual legacy.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

E.H. Munro said:


> You've picked about the three worst examples you could possibly find, three of the biggest douchebags ever to make a living as athletes. And not quiet douchebags like Wade or James (because neither publicly cavort with drugs, whores or the law), but publicly undisputed douchebags. Well, Tiger used to be a quiet douchebag, but that came to a rather spectacular, messy, and hilarious end of late.


But they do understand they are role models is the point. If Tiger wasn't a role model, he wouldn't have to apologize to the fans.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Well Kobe vs. LeBron is basically Bird vs. Jordan circa the mid-to-late 80's. Everyone knew that Jordan was better than Bird, and Bird himself wouldn't have denied it, but Bird was on a stacked team and Jordan simply wasn't. Bird had titles. Bird had "experience and poise" while people were (*unfairly*) holding it against Jordan until he won a title.
> 
> If you and others want to hold LeBron back until his team wins a title, then by all means. I don't need to see that happen to know who the greatest basketball player on the planet is.
> 
> You know a guy is great when you can't even knock a single thing about his game. Kobe has bad shot selection, Howard has no post offense, Durant needs to get stronger, Wade needs to improve his outside shot. LeBron needs to...have his team win a title. *Sorry but that's lame*. It would make his legacy more glossy with titles but honestly it doesn't change a damn thing about his individual legacy.


Here's the first point where I disagree with you. It was completely fair. 

Because intangibles cannot be quantified, people seem to overlook them. Sure, Jordan gained valuable experienced and became arguably the most poised player in the history of the game. But he wasn't at the time. I am not ready to anoint James to this level of excellence just yet.

He's had a team tailor made for him -- go out and lead your soldiers to victory. The title of the "greatest player in the league" should not be taken away from Kobe this easily. Too often against the Magic in the playoffs last year, he'd be either too passive or too aggressive. He didn't know when to take over like Kobe clearly did in the Finals. 

Another knock I have on him is his defense. He guarded Rafer Alston in the playoffs last year and let Hedo and Rashard hit big shot after big shot against them. Granted, the Lakers had Trevor Ariza to combat these problems -- but you know where Ariza's success permeated from? I'd bet 10:1 it was Kobe in his ear, all season long, pushing him to be aggressive, to get better. Read some media published on Ariza around playoffs last year, it'll talk about how Kobe's work ethic rubbed off on him. Which brings me to my next point. Despite LeBron's absurdly high assist numbers, I feel like players go to the Cavaliers and get worse. Not basing this off statistics, because obviously the same point can be made with the Lakers, but watching them play. Part of the problem I believe is Mike Brown's offense, but another part is attributed to LeBron's presence in a half-court offense. I believe he's the best fast-breaking player in the league, but look where all that athleticism got John Wall.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Duck34234 said:


> The underlying assumption that most should be able to recognize is that Kevin Garnett didn't win a title as the clear-cut number one option on that Celtics team.


Garnett was the key to the Celtics title. The only big man in the NBA you could have replaced him with to get the same result was Duncan. He was the clear cut leader, best player, and key to their destruction of LA.



Duck34234 said:


> He's had a team tailor made for him -- go out and lead your soldiers to victory.


Yes, indeed, the drafting of first ballot hall-of-famer Luke Jackson, the signing of top ten all time NBA star Larry Hughes, future hall of famers Wally Szczerbiak Szczuperstar and Delonte West. Truly he's led teams of the ages nowhere.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

R-Star said:


> But they do understand they are role models is the point. If Tiger wasn't a role model, he wouldn't have to apologize to the fans.


Then Kobe & Michael didn't get that memo.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Duck34234 said:


> I've been waiting for someone else to start saying this.


so lebron put up the highest playoff PER of alltime for anyone who got out of the first round and it's his fault his team didn't win a championship?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

rocketeer said:


> so lebron put up the highest playoff PER of alltime for anyone who got out of the first round and it's his fault his team didn't win a championship?


If only he were as good as Courtney Lee and Jameer Nelson...

Of course, going by the logic presented by Magic fans, we can assert that Dwight Howard will never be as good as Robert Horry.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Duck34234 said:


> The underlying assumption that most should be able to recognize is that Kevin Garnett didn't win a title as the clear-cut number one option on that Celtics team. Although he couldn't get it done in Minnesota as the #1 option, he was afforded the opportunity to be part of a great team, win a title, and cement his legacy as a great player. He sucked it up, and essentially admitted he couldn't do it as the clear cut #1 by teaming up with Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. Basketball is a team sport, so I'm fine with this -- in fact, I encourage it. Dwight is in a similar (but not identical) situation that KG was in with Minnesota. MVP candidate, DPOTY, but he couldn't pull it out in the playoffs. Dwight hasn't yet either -- never will you find me stating Dwight is the best, or even the most valuable player in the league. I merely ask for his consideration and claim that its a closer race than what people perceive it to be.
> 
> Personally, I think the best player in the league is Kobe. He's won a championship as the first option for the (albeit, very talented) Lakers club. Clearly, the number of championships one possesses is not the end all-be all of basketball. *I'm not looking at Robert Horry as one of the all time greats. But I believe people undervalue Kobe's experience and poise and overvalue LeBron's talent.*
> 
> I believe more people should take a page out of NCAA basketball. Kentucky's team of phenoms is sitting at home watching Coach K's upperclass compete in the Final Four.


Read


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

So Kobe gets credit for Ariza making big plays because you assume Kobe was reading newspapers to Ariza? That is a huge reach. Comeon. And you cannot compare Kobe's luxury to pick spots in games to LeBron's. Kobe isn't better at it, he just has more room for error because he has like 3-4 borderline all-stars on his team. When LeBron is passive, his team can't shoulder the load the same way Kobe's team can. 

Intangibles are a joke most of the time because fans use them as a way to criticize players they don't like and prop up players they love. Obviously you would think LeBron's teammates get worse with him despite stats not backing it up, just like I'm sure you think Dwight Howard is a lot better than his numbers indicate because of "intangibles". That's why stats and advanced stats are incredibly useful, because they showcase what is actually happening without bias. LeBron is the best player in the league, and Dwight is something like top 5.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

rocketeer said:


> so lebron put up the highest playoff PER of alltime for anyone who got out of the first round and it's his fault his team didn't win a championship?


I'm really not a fan of that statistic considering it ignores a player's game.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Duck34234 said:


> I'm really not a fan of that statistic considering it ignores a player's game.


actually, the stats are created by a player's game.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Duck, what about Dwyane Wade? Do you consider Wade to be better than Howard? He has a title that he won as the undisputed 1st option.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> S*o Kobe gets credit for Ariza making big plays because you assume Kobe was reading newspapers to Ariza*? That is a huge reach. Comeon. And you cannot compare Kobe's luxury to pick spots in games to LeBron's. Kobe isn't better at it, he just has more room for error because he has like 3-4 borderline all-stars on his team. When LeBron is passive, his team can't shoulder the load the same way Kobe's team can.
> 
> Intangibles are a joke most of the time because fans use them as a way to criticize players they don't like and prop up players they love. Obviously you would think LeBron's teammates get worse with him despite stats not backing it up, just like I'm sure you think Dwight Howard is a lot better than his numbers indicate because of "intangibles". That's why stats and advanced stats are incredibly useful, because they showcase what is actually happening without bias. LeBron is the best player in the league, and Dwight is something like top 5.


Some credit? Yes. All? Clearly not. And not reading newspapers -- I do not understand what it is you're trying to communicate here. I'm suggesting Kobe gave Ariza the confidence to step up and make those plays as a result of all the hard work he put in. My argument here is that Kobe creates a culture is more conducive to winning than what LeBron does (i.e. jump around and pretend to take pictures of one another). 


*That's why stats and advanced stats are incredibly useful, because they showcase what is actually happening without bias
*

Statistics and advanced statistics are good for ball-parking players, but close comparisons like these require a trained eye and an understanding of the game. I don't know what advanced stats you look at -- obviously I'm not a huge, stat guy but I'm familiar with PER. Hollinger's PER a) doesn't take into consider actual defense and b) claims Greg Oden has a higher PER than Kobe Bryant. 

People should stop using the 'you're a magic fan argument.' Dwight is clearly not the "greatest player in the league" -- for the 3rd time I'm not saying that. On the _most primitive level_ (let me stress these three words), the biggest bias I have is this: I think Kobe is a better player because I saw him lead his team over the Magic in the Finals after I saw LeBron fail to do so in just the previous round.

Let's just clear this up -- I believe LeBron deserves to win the MVP award. He's very important (read: valuable) to a 60+ win team in the regular season because he produces regular season wins. I believe Dwight is a close second, with Durant being the 3rd most important and Kobe 4th. But who's the _greatest_ player in the league, to me, is a completely different question and takes into consideration postseason hardware (Finals MVP, Championships), along with the role that you play on your team.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

rocketeer said:


> actually, the stats are created by a player's game.


Meant to write "half a player's game" -- read: defense.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Duck, what about Dwyane Wade? Do you consider Wade to be better than Howard? He has a title that he won as the undisputed 1st option.


Historically? Yeah I would -- but its close. 

His 2006 playoff run is something that Howard has not accomplished. He played at a higher level in those playoffs than Dwight has throughout the post-season. But the Dwyane Wade of 4 years ago is not the Dwyane Wade of today. Playing for a sub-par Miami team after winning it all-- he's become pretty disillusioned. If you're looking at his performance in the Olympics a couple of summers ago as his potential for playing today, I'd say they're neck-in-neck in "greatness," with Wade edging out Howard because he got it done. I will argue though, that Howard is the more "valuable" player by a slim margin.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Duck34234 said:


> Statistics and advanced statistics are good for ball-parking players, but close comparisons like these require a trained eye and an understanding of the game.


this comparison really isn't close at all.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Duck, if you're saying Kobe is more accomplished than LeBron, that's fine. That's different from being more valuable, or better, or greater. Wade is more accomplished than Howard the same way, but not necessarily better or more valuable. 

And as far as PER ballparking players, nobody is in LeBron's ballpark.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Patch, I now have a question for you. Let's pretend the Cavaliers and the Lakers meet in the Finals and the Lakers win in 6 games. Does this impact your perception of Kobe and LeBron?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Duck34234 said:


> Statistics and advanced statistics are good for ball-parking players, but close comparisons like these require a trained eye and an understanding of the game.


So you're officially withdrawing from the argument?


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

And for clarification's sake, I'm saying Kobe is better historically and in the playoffs, where I argue it matters most.

LeBron is more valuable to his team's success, both in the regular season and in the playoffs, but his talents have not been proven to conducive to winning a title just yet.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

LeBron is more valuable to his team's success in the regular season and in the playoffs, but his current talents have not been enough to win a championship.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Duck34234 said:


> Patch, I now have a question for you. Let's pretend the Cavaliers and the Lakers meet in the Finals and the Lakers win in 6 games. Does this impact your perception of Kobe and LeBron?


Clearly it would depend on how they play. The winner means less to me than how they actually play in how I look at them individually. 

I could see the Lakers winning with Kobe playing mediocre and LeBron playing out of his mind. This doesn't mean Kobe outplayed LeBron just because his team won.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

It's hard to compare a 25 year old not even in his prime, with an all-time legend who is at the tale end of his own prime. Especially if your metric is career achievements.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> It's hard to compare a 25 year old not even in his prime, with an all-time legend who is at the tale end of his own prime. Especially if your metric is career achievements.


my metric are skills necessary to achieve these career achievements. some develop them earlier in their career than others. See: Tim Duncan.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Duck34234 said:


> my metric are skills necessary to achieve these career achievements. some develop them earlier in their career than others. See: Tim Duncan.


What skills does one need in order to win 5 or 6 championships? Let's see your rubric and then measure players against it, and see how valid your view ends up being.

For instance, what was the difference in skills between Karl Malone and Pau Gasol such that Pau has a ring, and Karl Malone doesn't.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> What skills does one need in order to win 5 or 6 championships? Let's see your rubric and then measure players against it, and see how valid your view ends up being.
> 
> For instance, what was the difference in skills between Karl Malone and Pau Gasol such that Pau has a ring, and Karl Malone doesn't.


For at least the night, this is my last point.

Kobe Bryant.


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## Theonee (Dec 5, 2006)

I think winning NBA championship does not necessarily reflect on how good a player is specially in a team game. If it is golf, tennis or any other individual game, sure it matters but basketball is a team game. No matter how good a player is if that player does not have a good team , he won't win championship.
I am Lakers and Kobe fan and Lebron not winning championship does not make him lesser of a player than Kobe. Lebron is clearly better than Kobe this year and last year.

I just don't like his arrorant behaviours, dancing on the sidelines, refusing to shake hands with your opponents when you lose, gloat when you win, try to act like he is a nice guy when he is not, confisticating tapes of guy dunking on him, and saying he wants to be the first sports billionaire, too late Lebron, Tiger already achieved that, I think.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Duck34234 said:


> For at least the night, this is my last point.
> 
> Kobe Bryant.


I don't understand. Karl Malone played with Kobe too. He just didn't win a title with him.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

I think everyone is downplaying winning championships a little too much now. It is a team game and it does require a team to win a championship, and I won't hold not winning one against Lebron because he's still only 7 seasons in, and has at least 7-8 more years at an extremely high level, but if he NEVER wins one it does affect his legacy immensely.

Sure it's not golf or tennis, but one player can affect the outcome in basketball far more than in baseball or football. Remember how Lebron dismantled Detroit? One player dominated an entire team. Remember Shaq's dominance during the three peat? It felt at times you could have swapped Kobe out easily - in the playoffs at least.

So while Lebron is currently the best player in the NBA, he's going to have to produce. When you look back you're not gonna remember his teammates as the reason for not winning, you're just going to remember that he didn't win. Also let's not act like Lebron's supporting cast is as weak as people make them out to be. You don't have the best record int he nba two seasons in a row with scrubs.

If they don't make it to the finals it's a MAJOR disappointment. If they don't win a championship it's a disappointment. 

If you ask me he's on a top 5 All time trajectory. Not winning a ring is going to knock him down to top 10 or possibly outside the top 10.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/spor...rsonate-charles-barkley-video,0,5343029.story


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

That's funny. Howard is a funny dude. He seems a bit jealous in that video, but maybe it's out of context.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

Duck34234 said:


> For at least the night, this is my last point.
> 
> Kobe Bryant.


The reason why Karl has no rings and Pau does has less to do with Kobe and more to do with MJ and the Bulls.

Plus as future mentioned Karl played with Kobe and Shaq and is still ringless.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

Tragedy said:


> If you ask me he's on a top 5 All time trajectory. Not winning a ring is going to knock him down to top 10 or possibly outside the top 10.


100% agreed. I don't think it is a matter of how many championships necessarily but that he wins at least one. Case in point Oscar and he won one not even in his prime and with Kareem. But this is why no one talks about Elgin even in top 10 discussion. Hell people knocked Wilt for this and even placed Russell over Wilt in the past. If Lebron does not get at least one ring he won't be in top 5 IMO. If he can't get at least 7 he won't overtake MJ I think in a lot of people's minds...Championships do define a player's greatness because it means at one point during their careers they achieved the ultimate team accolade.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

> Rich Levine: Durant asked if, like LeBron, he could win a scoring title at will: "Nah, I'm not that confident. Too many good players in this league..."
> 
> Read more: http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm#ixzz0jsDYyJKr


...


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## Eternal (Sep 7, 2005)

E.H. Munro said:


> You know, the Magic are such a likable team. They deserve better fans.


That seems pretty low... especially for an admin. Your goal should be for attracting new members for the site, not pushing them away, making them dislike admins.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Kevin Durant is a class act, always will be a special player in my book, and a Sonic.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

> Kevin Durant is a class act, always will be a special player in my book, and a Sonic.


When people started comparing Durant to LeBron this summer, Durant dismissed it in an interview saying he is not on LeBron's level. Durant is young and maybe he just hasn't developed his arrogance yet, but he is truly like a little kid. I see him around my way a lot and everytime I talk to him he is cool as hell. Kind of goofy even. He signs more autographs than anyone on the Thunder and plays around with fans quite a bit. I hope he doesn't change because as it is he is a breathe of fresh air.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> When people started comparing Durant to LeBron this summer, Durant dismissed it in an interview saying he is not on LeBron's level. Durant is young and maybe he just hasn't developed his arrogance yet, but he is truly like a little kid. I see him around my way a lot and everytime I talk to him he is cool as hell. Kind of goofy even. He signs more autographs than anyone on the Thunder and plays around with fans quite a bit. I hope he doesn't change because as it is he is a breathe of fresh air.


Great to hear.

You got a franchise star in OKC. He will always be coveted and backed by the Pacific North West where ever he plays.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> When people started comparing Durant to LeBron this summer, Durant dismissed it in an interview saying he is not on LeBron's level. Durant is young and maybe he just hasn't developed his arrogance yet, but he is truly like a little kid. I see him around my way a lot and everytime I talk to him he is cool as hell. Kind of goofy even. He signs more autographs than anyone on the Thunder and plays around with fans quite a bit. I hope he doesn't change because as it is he is a breathe of fresh air.


I wouldn't expect nothing less from Velvet Hoop.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

It's probably amazing that Lebron is as together as he is, given that he was a superstar by his junior year in high school.

Just be glad he's not molesting little boys MJ style to try and recapture his lost childhood.


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## Unique (Apr 13, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> I don't understand. Karl Malone played with Kobe too. He just didn't win a title with him.



blame the ankle.....



and the glove.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Unique said:


> blame the ankle.....
> 
> 
> 
> and the glove.


That would be allowing for circumstances and consequences to enter into the evaluation. Which have already been dismissed out of hand.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> It's probably amazing that Lebron is as together as he is, given that he was a superstar by his junior year in high school.
> 
> Just be glad he's not molesting little boys MJ style to try and recapture his lost childhood.


Let's not be so extreme.


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