# Bosh = Garnet, Moiso ~= Keon, Lamond=AOK, Mo Pete = Gone



## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

After watching *Bosh* in summer league and seeing him in 2 games in the pre-season I have to say he is not Jonathan Bender. He is way more confident and he seems to be a phenom.

By Phenom I mean 6'11 with great hands and decision making + awesome agility. If he gets minutes and stays healthy he will be an allstar in 3 years. Remember Garnet struggled when he came in until about 1/2 way through his second season it just 'clicked'
P.S. Bosh is only 19 also to those who think Bosh and Moiso are the same player - they are not! Bosh will put the ball on the floor Moiso will reside in the paint with his back to the net on both ends of the floor.

=============

*Moiso* is so rangey is gives me goose bumps - I hope he can put t all together. Against the greek team his second dunk was mind boggling - when he left the ground I had no idea he would be anywhere near the net and he threw down a left handed blur that had me confused for about 30 sec. as I replyed the dunk in my mind.

=============

*Lamond* looked great in summer leage and unbelieveble parking on the arc and shooting the bomb in pre-season. Aside from that he has looked very savvy on the court forcing turn-overs and making plays - he will be better than Vince more often than you might expect. The best second option Vince has ever had with the exception of T-Mac (who at the time could not spread the floor as well since he shot was not as consistant)

===============
*Mo Pete* it seemed promising at first but... well... you have regressed and now your time is up - hungrier players are here. Mo Pete appears to be the type of player who does not rise to the challange but rather - becomes an aloof suck. He took his minutes for granted and he will never in his career get minutes like he did last season.... started almost 82 games last season and now he is likely 10th or 11th man.


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## toiletscrubber (Sep 22, 2002)

I am very excited about this Raptors team, coz it really looks like we have one of the deepest bench in the league. Me might be lacking super stars, but the fact that, Mo-Pete, an career 14ppg scorer can't even earn a spot in the 8 man rotation, really takes how much this team has improved.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I don't think it's over for Mo yet. He might not be a starter anymore but he can still be a key scoring and defensive reserve. I would much rather have Peterson behind Carter at the 2-spot than Chris Jeffries at this point. Hopefully GG can resign Mo to a small contract next summer and he can stay with the team.

Bosh has played very well against lackluster competition. During summer league play, when he was matched up against other strong, young NBAers he didn't do as well. Before everyone starts thinking he will be a 30 minute player and will be starting before the all-star break, remember that he IS just 19 and he has a long way to go before he is a dominant player.

"I told y'all" about Murry. Actually, everyone pretty much agreed that he would be an important player, even a starter. He is a smooth-shooting forward who is actually better on D than I had anticipated (after seeing him on a dismal Cleveland team). He can rebound and gets up and down the court pretty well for his age. Hopefully he can get the kind of numbers Voshon accomplished last season, but with some good D too.

As for Moiso, same deal with Bosh. He played well against the paper-thin Greek team, but he recorded 0 rebounds against the Wizards, remember? He has some dynamite in his shoes around the basket, but he hasn't been a consistent player on any team he has played for in the NBA yet. To expect him to be a double-double starter might be wishful thinking. And we'll see how his minutes are affected when JYD and Brads earn KO's respect, which they will eventually.

Overall, going 2-0 to start preseason is very exciting, but we'll see what the lineup looks like when the real games start.


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## toiletscrubber (Sep 22, 2002)

I forgot to mention one thing that surprises me is the minutes that Lamond Murray got, maybe someone can fill me in with that since I havne't watch any preseason games.

Murray has been known for his "Glenn Robinson" like defense, and before the season some has said that Murray might not get love from KO because of his bad defense. 

But now it looks like Murray has been an important part of KO's offense, is that purely because of Murray's offensive presence, or its' due to the fact that Murray's defense has really improve?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

if Mo Pete works on his ball-handling and distribution skills, he'd be a perfect backup to Vince.

if he works on ball-handling, distribution, consistency, making smart decisions, then he'd get his starting position back.


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## Rawker (Jun 23, 2003)

bosh is more of a true pf then a sf/sg like garnnet, bosh looks like he enjoy's contact and banging. I'd say more of an Alonzo Morning (in time to come, but not as bulky) then a garnnet.

moiso is a great role player, his only downside is probably that he isn't an option on offense, just a lane filler, garbage man like jyd. but his defense, size, and agility make him a great role player.

lammon carried the cavs, he's never played on a good team (clips and cavs? lol) so assuming his defense sucked was premature. 

mop was given more time and room for error then 95% of players, and he is now expendable. trade for a solid role player for the playoffs? let his contract expire for FA room? 

one thing that worries me is rebounding, the raps have been a top rebounding team in the league (offensive rebounding juggernaut). let's just hope JYD get's his playing time, no matter if it's at the 3 or 4 spot he needs to be on the floor 20 min. a game.


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## Rawker (Jun 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> if Mo Pete works on his ball-handling and distribution skills, he'd be a perfect backup to Vince.
> 
> if he works on ball-handling, distribution, consistency, making smart decisions, then he'd get his starting position back.


work on? mop has been in the league 3 seasons, came out as a senior, and pretty much started those 3 seasons so him working on anything is too late. he had the time to work on things but he didn't so now he's expendable. he will never be as good a defender as curry and never be as good an offensive player as murry and never be as good a rebounder/hustle player as jyd so he's as good as gone.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rawker</b>!
> 
> 
> work on? mop has been in the league 3 seasons, came out as a senior, and pretty much started those 3 seasons so him working on anything is too late. he had the time to work on things but he didn't so now he's expendable. he will never be as good a defender as curry and never be as good an offensive player as murry and never be as good a rebounder/hustle player as jyd so he's as good as gone.



he's still young and developing. he can still learn, despite being a college graduate.


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## Rawker (Jun 23, 2003)

he's hardly young, bosh is young. at this point mop should be tuneing his game not developing it.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rawker</b>!
> he's hardly young, bosh is young. at this point mop should be tuneing his game not developing it.


i.e. Eric Snow
he's developed his game to more of a scorer compared to before.


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## Junkyard Dog13 (Aug 9, 2003)

Move Peterson to Sg, there are Enough Sm's at Sg Peterson would be the top back up, Jefferies is still to raw. 
At Sg Peterson has good size and very good defence to play back up Sg Peterson who can be a legitimate Sg who has all around game if Carter gets hurt as Curry is not great starting material at Sg more at Sm b/c he has good defence.

Start Williams Carter Curry Moiso Davis 
Top back ups Jyd Peterson Murray Bosh


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

yup, mo pete still has a valuable role on the raptors this season, being backup shooting guard to VC. he will see some time at sf as well but in a far reduced capacity (finally we have some depth). if the injury bug strikes our swing positions again we now have a full arsenal to compensate (of course you can never be compensated enough to make up for vince). 

i'm just impressed that moiso has shown o'neill enough to grab a starting position. KO obviously wants to use him as he did ben wallace. moiso isn't at that level and likely never will be but he's gonig to rack up a lot of blocks under o'neill's reign.

murray and bosh have been impressive and i will be expecting big things from them in the future. lammond is a veteran scorer in the glenn robinson mold. bosh has been more impressive than i expected; the kid has a marvelous work ethic and feel for the game.


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## Rawker (Jun 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> 
> 
> i.e. Eric Snow
> he's developed his game to more of a scorer compared to before.


put him on a different team and see if he does what he does. A.I. and phi's system allow snow to penetrate (that's 80% of phi's system, guard penetration) and get his points. stop his penetration and watch him score with the 15 ft jumper  . a scorer is someone who is versitile, can shoot the three , can shoot the open jump shot with consistancy, can break someone down off the dribble to get open or penetrate, can play the post game, and can finish around the basket. an example of a scorer is say marbury or nash, not snow who is a classic setup pg. 

if a player at 26 doesn't have a niche or doesn't do something consistantly then they won't be playing much. 

peterson defending at the 2 is like AD defending at the 3, he'll get raped every time just like he does at the 3, but at the 2 his flat footed defense and fouling to bail himself out will become that much more apparent.

btw what's up with this glenn robinson comparison? because their numbers are close, or they both have reputation on defense? robinson played on a good team, murry played on the worst teams where no one defended, heck eddie jones or doug christie wouldn't defend for the clips or cavs in the 90's.


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

Who knows if Bosh will be anything like Garnett. Will he ever be that good of a passer?


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rawker</b>!
> 
> 
> put him on a different team and see if he does what he does. A.I. and phi's system allow snow to penetrate (that's 80% of phi's system, guard penetration) and get his points. stop his penetration and watch him score with the 15 ft jumper  . a scorer is someone who is versitile, can shoot the three , can shoot the open jump shot with consistancy, can break someone down off the dribble to get open or penetrate, can play the post game, and can finish around the basket. an example of a scorer is say marbury or nash, not snow who is a classic setup pg.
> ...


uhh, glenn robinson is a great player and a great scorer, he might not have the best reputation on defense but then neither does murray. 

peterson can't defend the 2? haven't you been watching the raptors the past 3 seasons? he usually took the most difficult defensive assignment at either the 2 or the 3 and he usually did a pretty ok job. no, he wasn't awesome, but he certainly was capable. the AD comparison is obviously ludicrous.

and peterson has actually been one of our more consistent players over the last few seasons. no, he isn't lighting it up every single game but he played every single game last year and came out with a good average (yes, 14 ppg is good, it's not like the guy's a star). there's always room for improvement but most likely the most significant improvements would come from playing on a better team, alongside vince carter or off the bench.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rawker</b>!
> 
> 
> put him on a different team and see if he does what he does. A.I. and phi's system allow snow to penetrate (that's 80% of phi's system, guard penetration) and get his points. stop his penetration and watch him score with the 15 ft jumper  . a scorer is someone who is versitile, can shoot the three , can shoot the open jump shot with consistancy, can break someone down off the dribble to get open or penetrate, can play the post game, and can finish around the basket. an example of a scorer is say marbury or nash, not snow who is a classic setup pg.
> ...


you have completely underrated Eric Snow. he's a top 10 PG and if you can't see that, then you need to look past stats.

and yes, he has improved his scoring to the point now that he c an hit that 15 ft jumper consistently and is capable to nail down 3's at times too. if you don't think so, watch more sixers games and you'll see he's not the same player that we've played against in the 2000-2001 playoffs.

as for Peterson, his role is more defined as a SG IMO. he's comfortable as a shooter, likes to get the majority of his shoots from shooting, and is more prepared to run break from the wing like shooters. he's very capable of playing the SF position but i feel his true position is the SG. 

also, alot of teams wouldn't mind picking up Mo Pete at a cheap price as he could still contribute.

honestly, i question your basketball IQ. do not focus on the stats but rather look how effective the player is to their team.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> 
> 
> you have completely underrated Eric Snow. he's a top 10 PG and if you can't see that, then you need to look past stats.


Snow is a nice little PG and a superb defender but the problem is that he plays sooo hard that he keep injuring himself so I would never want him. Kinda like the other great defender that used to be in Philly Theo Ratliff


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>charlz</b>!
> 
> Snow is a nice little PG and a superb defender but the problem is that he plays sooo hard that he keep injuring himself so I would never want him. Kinda like the other great defender that used to be in Philly Theo Ratliff



him and Iverson have been starters for Philly in 99 straight games.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> him and Iverson have been starters for Philly in 99 straight games.


last season he was better but he his play was limited as he played hurt through stretches of the season. some nights he was hurting his team. Also he missed approx 25 games the 2 previous seasons and has missed key post season play.

In fact outside of last season and 99-00 he has missed a ton of games. on average over 30 a season.
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/eric_snow/index.html?nav=page


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>charlz</b>!
> 
> 
> last season he was better but he his play was limited as he played hurt through stretches of the season. some nights he was hurting his team. Also he missed approx 25 games the 2 previous seasons and has missed key post season play.
> ...





> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> 
> 
> him and Iverson have been starters for Philly in 99 straight games.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

ok maybe this will help ya

G GP
82 9
82 67
82 17
82 47
82 64
82 48
82 82
82 50
82 61
82 82
820 497

which is barely 60% of the games - yes he has been paid to sit more that 30 (ave.)games a season and outside of his rookie season (which he got injured in) he has been a key contributor but struggles to stay healthy.

His injuries have been well cronicled:
FROM this years playoffs - Philadelphia 76ers' Eric Snow intends to play against Detroit in Game 2  

Chances of Snow Improving for Game 6 

Snow Sidelined for At Least Rest of Semifinals 

Snow helping 76ers while he's hurting

Snow Says He's Done for the Playoffs Eric Snow Day-to-Day with Ankle Injury


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

but he played all 82 games last year. i don't get your argument. becuase of his perfect attendance record last year he constitutes as being healthy to me.

but in your case, if VC plays all 82 games this year, would you see him as healthy, or injury prone?


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> but he played all 82 games last year. i don't get your argument. becuase of his perfect attendance record last year he constitutes as being healthy to me.
> 
> but in your case, if VC plays all 82 games this year, would you see him as healthy, or injury prone?


this has nothing to do with Vince - where are you going with that? nice try.

Read these links, and then re-read what I wrote - and then you can PM me telling me how it was silly it wsa to contradict the guy who reads every NBA article published to the web. (that's me -  )

His injuries have been well cronicled:
FROM this years playoffs - Philadelphia 76ers' Eric Snow intends to play against Detroit in Game 2  

Chances of Snow Improving for Game 6 

Snow Sidelined for At Least Rest of Semifinals 

Snow helping 76ers while he's hurting

Snow Says He's Done for the Playoffs Eric Snow Day-to-Day with Ankle Injury


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

wow last year played all 82 games and missed some playoff games. he's not at all improving his health one bit from the PAST.

and answer my VC question again, you'll see it links to Snow if you read carefully.


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## Rawker (Jun 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> 
> 
> you have completely underrated Eric Snow. he's a top 10 PG and if you can't see that, then you need to look past stats.
> ...


lol you need a serious reality check, eric snow a top 10 pg? and you question my basketball IQ? and you say mop should be a sg? and is comfortable as a shooter? yeah we all know just how comfortable he is... a little too comfortable.

here's the deal, you go read snow's stats, make sure to look at that 3pt percentage because you seem to think he is capable at nailing down three's... at times. you obviously don't watch sixer games because if you did you'd know that snow can't hit a 15 ft jump shot if a defender is within 5 feet of him. 

i haven't underrated snow at all, just like people on this board think mop is a good defender or should be starting. over time players grow on you, you tend to forgive them for their mistakes because you know what they can do. meanwhile there are other guys out there who can do the job 

so since you question my basketball IQ, i'm going to question yours. name me your top 10 pg's and i want to see eric snow in there because he is a top 10 pg.



> peterson can't defend the 2? haven't you been watching the raptors the past 3 seasons? he usually took the most difficult defensive assignment at either the 2 or the 3 and he usually did a pretty ok job.


Yeah i remember all three seasons, watched pretty much every game even when they were down and you know what i saw? him getting schooled in the post, him getting beaten off the dribble and then fouling, hmmm fouling that seemed to be his biggest problem the past 2 seasons. aside from that odd habbit of stepping back 3 steps before shooting a jumper. i remember one game really well, last year, in orlando, mop getting beat off the dribble 5 times in a row by tmac after the coach's and his team mates tell him to stay back and make him a shooter. after about 7 min. he was yanked and jyd was brought in, he pretty much shut down tmac until the 4th quarter by backing off him and making him a jump shooter. yeah he took the hard defensive assignment because vince doesn't need to foul out and mop is expendable. it's funny though how alot of the times star sg's cover pg's, i wonder why? maybe they suck at defense or something...

the thing is i don't hate mop and i don't hate eric snow, but i'm not the type of person to rave that they are good at something when they clearly aren't compared to the rest of the nba. it's funny, in an article KO said something to the effect that mop hasn't been playing that much or is in his doghouse because he's not in shape (don't quote me on that). and then mop headed off to the gym after practice. and is it me or on raptors.com in the photo of vince and mop in the gym (might have to refresh a few times), does mop look like he's pushing himself? RENEW DEDICATION? 

mop, 26, been to the playoffs a few times, pretty much started his first 3 seasons, came out as a senior, and he needs to be told to hit the gym even after he posed in a advertisment about dedication?


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

i have to agree with rawker.. snow IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING A TOP 10 PG.. CRAZY TALK!

peterson has been soft on defense and he does need to renew his dedication..

HOLLA!


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

...


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rawker</b>!
> 
> 
> lol you need a serious reality check, eric snow a top 10 pg? and you question my basketball IQ? and you say mop should be a sg? and is comfortable as a shooter? yeah we all know just how comfortable he is... a little too comfortable.
> ...


wow, you mean in the past he coudln't hit 3's let alone open 15 ft jumpers? 

so, you're saying, since last year he hasn't improved at all? 

watch the 2001-2002 and this upcoming season's Eric Snow and see how different he is from his past self.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

1. kidd
2. marbury
3. nash
4. payton
5. francis
6. baron
7. cassell
8. miller
9. snow
10. terry

In Before you question me to put Arenas, Bibby or NVE


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rawker</b>!
> Yeah i remember all three seasons, watched pretty much every game even when they were down and you know what i saw? him getting schooled in the post, him getting beaten off the dribble and then fouling, hmmm fouling that seemed to be his biggest problem the past 2 seasons. aside from that odd habbit of stepping back 3 steps before shooting a jumper. i remember one game really well, last year, in orlando, mop getting beat off the dribble 5 times in a row by tmac after the coach's and his team mates tell him to stay back and make him a shooter. after about 7 min. he was yanked and jyd was brought in, he pretty much shut down tmac until the 4th quarter by backing off him and making him a jump shooter. yeah he took the hard defensive assignment because vince doesn't need to foul out and mop is expendable. it's funny though how alot of the times star sg's cover pg's, i wonder why? maybe they suck at defense or something...
> 
> the thing is i don't hate mop and i don't hate eric snow, but i'm not the type of person to rave that they are good at something when they clearly aren't compared to the rest of the nba. it's funny, in an article KO said something to the effect that mop hasn't been playing that much or is in his doghouse because he's not in shape (don't quote me on that). and then mop headed off to the gym after practice. and is it me or on raptors.com in the photo of vince and mop in the gym (might have to refresh a few times), does mop look like he's pushing himself? RENEW DEDICATION?
> ...


so you're basing Mo Pete's defensive performances on how he guarded (out of all people) TMac? :laugh:
tell me, TMac averaged 32.8 ppg. who did you see do a good job on him? 

and Mo Pete getting beat off the dribble? the guy could give you at least 1 charge a night on his man-to-man coverage. and in order to do that, you'd have to be one step ahead of the player. and there's bound to be some people quicker than Mo Pete, which is what the help-side defender is there for.

give me an example of star sg's covering pg's besides AI or VC.

and i would rather take the word of KO rather than some commercial. if KO says Mo Pete is out of shape, then he's out of shape.


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## Rawker (Jun 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> 1. kidd
> 2. marbury
> 3. nash
> ...


Alvin Williams? billups? white chocolate? Tinsley? Gilbert Arenas? Troy Hudson? Tony Parker? Bibby? Terry?

so your telling me that ERIC SNOW is better then all of these players? i'm not even going to bother to read your posts anymore because your not making any sense, i mean take your foot out of your mouth and answer the question honestly. To make it easier for you go to yahoo fantasy sports and check the numbers, sort available players by their rank. numbers don't lie and the funny thing is jason terry is ranked 2nd, haha who would have thought that last season your #10 was actually #2 by the numbers. 




> so you're basing Mo Pete's defensive performances on how he guarded (out of all people) TMac?





> i remember one game really well


what do you want me to post impressions from every game he played? :laugh: how about you read my posts.

btw kobe cover's pg's, jordan used to, hey guess who guarded a few pg's last year, vashon lennord.



> and i would rather take the word of KO rather than some commercial.


this comment really makes me wonder if you do read my posts


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MGlaeR</b>!
> I see Chris Bosh as a black Chris Dudley-type player.


Please tell me you are joking.:uhoh:

A lot of good points made in this thread until that comparison. Murdarous is right, you cannot compare Mo Pete's defense against TMac because TMac at this point in his career has made himself into arguably the most complete offensive player in the NBA. Mo Pete has the ability to play athletic defense and his defense capabilities is above average. It isn't Artest-like but it isn't Big Dog like either.

As for Snow being in the top 10, I agree with Rawker...he isn't in my list. But if you are talking about efficiency, Snow would be. He has an excellent assist to turnover ratio and plays great pressure defense. But he is limited on offense although he has worked hard to improve on that aspect these last couple of years and as Charlz has mentioned is injury prone. One 82 game season does not take away how many games he has missed throughout his whole career. It still leaves an uncertainty and doubt about his health. Same as even if Vince plays 82 games this year...people will still ask the question, "could he do it next year?".

Bosh is a very good NBA prospect. I haven't watched a single preseason or summer league game but it seems from people's account, his game has changed from that of college. In college he was very perimeter oriented and sometimes handled the ball on the wing hence the comparisons of his ability to KG. It is great to hear him put on weight and learn to play in the post a little. Don't underestimate Bosh because to a lot of scouts he was considered the hardest working draft prospect and his dedication to his physical conditioning has proved that. He has a very bright future with the potential to become a franchise caliber player. 

Moiso is still a question mark. He brings high athleticism to our post position but he is inconsistent. A lot of people compared Bosh to Moiso during the draft but honestly Bosh's skills are much higher than that of Moiso. The two when compared as draft prospects aren't even really close seriously. 

Lamond Murray is all offense, very little defense. The comparison to Big Dog is adequate if you add "poor man's" infront of it. However, he was and is a solid addition to the Raps because he will give a more consistent offensive effort than Mo Pete ever did. But Lamond is coming off a season in which he was an injured the whole year. I still have question marks concerning his health and overall rust. Preseason games mean little when comparing to the pressure of real NBA season games.

Mo Pete was disappointing last season and a lot of bang wagoners jumped off his because of that. Mo Pete is still a solid role player on this roster. He provides athleticism on offense and defense. I have always said that Mo Pete is best suited to be a sixth man and not a starter. Once he improves on his conditioning he will provide a spark plug for the Raps from the bench. That is very important because our bench overall has very little offensive potency.

Overall, I think the Raptors should fare well and we have a slight chance to make it into the playoffs if one or two Eastern teams screw up this season. Otherwise this team should be able to conjure up 35 victories, if healthy. Our success will depend on Vince. He really has to step up this season. Bosh is the apparent future but at this point he is still young and inexperienced. Glen Grunwuld did not make key additions this summer but the Raps had very little to play with. Moiso, Bateer, and Roberts combine for a ton of inconsistency and at times fustration in the post but they should be able to contribute. The main concern still for the Raps is health. If we can get pass that issue, it could be the biggest and key step to returning team success.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rawker</b>!
> 
> 
> Alvin Williams? billups? white chocolate? Tinsley? Gilbert Arenas? Troy Hudson? Tony Parker? Bibby? Terry?
> ...


if you think AW is better than Alwin Willliams, you got another thing coming. who was voted as all defensive squad last season? you averaged more assists? who was more consistent?

white chocolate? i expect my pg to be more in control and less erratic. has jw improved on that? yes. to the fullest? no. he hasto maintain composure and not rush too many things. i've seen many fast-break opportunities last season where he'd do crazy passes that would end up being turnovers.

Tinsley? :laugh: not even gonna mention him.

Arenas, too turnover prone. if you like stats so much check out his turnover-assists ratio.

Hudson, i'd still take Snow, and believe me, the T'Wolves would do too.

Parker, meh, i'd put him over Terry, but that's it. i don't like the PG to take the majority of the shots.

Bibby? :laugh: not even gonna mention him.

and i already stated Terry.

and you take into account the stats sheet too much. the stat sheet doesn't show all the stats that make the player effective. take a guy like Ricky Davis, who average 20/5/5. now that's all-star numbers, would you put him ahead of Michael Finley, Kirilenko or Peja? look at Tinsley's numbers, would you put him ahead of Terry, Marbury or Nash? look at Kidd numbers and tell me based on just those why is he so great? based on numbers, would you say TMac is the most dominating man in the NBA?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>MGlaeR</b>!
> Bosh may have more confidence and muscle than Jonathan Bender, but you're also failing to mention that he doesn't have near the length, athleticism, or overall skill of Bender.
> I see Chris Bosh as a black Chris Dudley-type player.


no comment


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>MGlaeR</b>!
> Bosh may have more confidence and muscle than Jonathan Bender, but you're also failing to mention that he doesn't have near the length, athleticism, or overall skill of Bender.
> I see Chris Bosh as a black Chris Dudley-type player.


omg.... i bet you chris bosh will have a better season then bender... you should be banned for the dudley comment... lol


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## OG (Aug 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rawker</b>!
> 
> 
> .....To make it easier for you go to yahoo fantasy sports and check the numbers, sort available players by their rank. numbers don't lie and the funny thing is jason terry is ranked 2nd, haha who would have thought that last season your #10 was actually #2 by the numbers. ....


maybe i misunderstood, but are you saying you agree with yahoo's rankings?

c'mon, marion #1 overall? (he was #1 last year too, that alone should prove yahoo ranking's aren't based on stats.)

i don't think yahoo puts too much thought into their rankings (especially considering they don't change all too much from year to year).


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## Rawker (Jun 23, 2003)

yahoo doesn't think about their rankings it's all calculated, so yeah marion would be number one because he was the best all around player. btw Kobe was #1 last year and their rankings are based on the previous seasons stats.

and murdarous you need to relax man with trying to put words into peoples mouths, remember your the one that thinks ERIC SNOW is a TOP 10 PG :laugh:


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

you're prolly one of those types who thinks Curry is a waste of a starter


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OG</b>!
> 
> 
> maybe i misunderstood, but are you saying you agree with yahoo's rankings?
> ...


anyone who thinks Marion has a more complete game than KG must hold their opinion in check.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

here's a question for you:
if there was a whole league draft who would you pick
(Shaq, Duncan, KG, Kidd, Kobe, Nowitziki, Iverson, Tmac are already taken)


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> here's a question for you:
> if there was a whole league draft who would you pick
> (Shaq, Duncan, KG, Kidd, Kobe, Nowitziki, Iverson, Tmac are already taken)


Bron!:yes:


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## Rawker (Jun 23, 2003)

i think i hit a nerve :yes: because you are hell bent on trying to prove anything and everything, even stuff that has no bearing on what was discussed or what i have said. 

what you can do is prove to me that your serious by taking your foot out of your mouth about ERIC SNOW being a TOP 10 PG.

until that day comes you can say what you want but i myself can't take it seriously.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

yo why the hell does murdarous triple and double post so much..??? yo use the edit button ya heard?

HOLLA!


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> yo why the hell does murdarous triple and double post so much..??? yo use the edit button ya heard?
> 
> HOLLA!


why do you care?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rawker</b>!
> i think i hit a nerve :yes: because you are hell bent on trying to prove anything and everything, even stuff that has no bearing on what was discussed or what i have said.
> 
> what you can do is prove to me that your serious by taking your foot out of your mouth about ERIC SNOW being a TOP 10 PG.
> ...




nm, i can see this is going no where

you can go on with trusting (out of all things) yahoo's power rankings.


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## Rawker (Jun 23, 2003)

rankings are a simple means of providing evidence to prove you wrong, they aren't "power rankings" where peoples opinions and outlook's justify the rank, it's based on numbers, aka facts.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rawker</b>!
> rankings are a simple means of providing evidence to prove you wrong, they aren't "power rankings" where peoples opinions and outlook's justify the rank, it's based on numbers, aka facts.


so what you're saying is, marion is the most complete player today?


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

and do you know how valuable Oak was to our team 2 years ago? but then how valuable could he be, he didn't put up stellar numbers.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> 
> 
> why do you care?


because it's spamming... i aint feeling it ya heard?

holla



> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> and do you know how valuable Oak was to our team 2 years ago? but then how valuable could he be, he didn't put up stellar numbers.


i think the guy cost us more games then won us games...

he made dumb decisions and took lame shots...


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> 
> 
> because it's spamming... i aint feeling it ya heard?
> ...


i postwhore alot 

don't worry, if there was a crown for this i'd give it to you


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> 
> 
> i postwhore alot
> ...


well you should be banned for it.. or just learn how to edit


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> 
> 
> well you should be banned for it.. or just learn how to edit


...

no!!


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

and you should be banned for saying eric snow is a top ten pg!! thats on the real lol HOLLA!


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> and you should be banned for saying eric snow is a top ten pg!! thats on the real lol HOLLA!


:laugh:
but he should be up there. he's a great example of a PG.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

i remember my first ban. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

oops, here i go again post-whoring.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

point guards better then snow

kidd
gary payton
baron davis
crawford
arenas
bibby
billups
Bobby Jackson
Steve Francis
steve nash
marbury
tony parker
Sam Cassell
Nick Van Exel
Jamaal Tinsley
jason terry
alvin williams
Jason Williams
Michael Redd

i just listed the point guards better then snow in random order

i say he's the 20th best pg in the league..

HOLLA


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

Snow's better than:
Alvin Williams (believe it, and don't be a raps troll)
crawford (he still hasn't proven himself. half a good season just doesn't cut it)
arenas (too turnover prone, and he's a PG)
Jackson (he's good, but if he's backing up Bibby, something's wrong)
NVE ( :laugh: )
Tinsley ( :laugh: )
Michael Redd (he's more of an SG)
JW (i'd rather have Snow for more control. flahy plays are nothing)
Parker (ok, i'm wrong about Snow being better than Parker)


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jokeaward</b>!
> Who knows if Bosh will be anything like Garnett. Will he ever be that good of a passer?



Or that good of an athelete? Or that laterally quick? Or have those awesome Mchale post moves? Or those ridiculous guard like handles?


I wish Bosh the best, but I think to judge him is an exercise in futility. He looks great in that block on Darko. He didn't look great when Zhizhi crossed him over in the Summer Leagues.


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## Dathomieyouhate (Jun 21, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> He looks great in that block on Darko. He didn't look great when Zhizhi crossed him over in the Summer Leagues.


uhh as you can tell the summer leagues were months ago.. you think bosh is the exact same player he was two months ago? Shake yourself kid.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> I wish Bosh the best, but I think to judge him is an exercise in futility. He looks great in that block on Darko. He didn't look great when Zhizhi crossed him over in the Summer Leagues.


This is sooo funny I had a deja vu - because some years ago when T-Mac was riding the pine in Toronto I told people he was a serious player. Everyone said he was a punk (on boards like this).

.. but I was convinvced that his moments of brilliance were genuine - he had instincts, rare atheletacism and the drive to realize his vast potential were real.

... I'll say the same thing now I said then - just watch! He's even got more upside than Melo and perhaps Darko. As far as Lebron James is concerned I think he is too heavy for his size and his joints will break down and shorten his career (knees ankles).


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Dathomieyouhate</b>!
> 
> 
> uhh as you can tell the summer leagues were months ago.. you think bosh is the exact same player he was two months ago? Shake yourself kid.



Your the one that needs a 'shaking' kid, by your logic neither is Wang. Besides if you read the whole post it's not a criticism, unless you have your head up your butt.


P.S. His defense is still shakey, and he is still doing the same thing ( trying to out atheletic everyone ) he was two months ago. The only real difference I saw was him bulking up. Feel free to edify me about his miraculous two month turn around though.


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> P.S. His defense is still shakey, and he is still doing the same thing ( trying to out atheletic everyone ) he was two months ago. The only real difference I saw was him bulking up. Feel free to edify me about his miraculous two month turn around though.



you are right he has not come *that* far in only 2 months. Zhi Zhi and some other 250+lbs guys will still back him down and give him fits.

but his role is more clearly defined - he will be gaurding more 3's than 5's because of his weight and agility. I think here in Rap town people are very excited about his ball handling anywhere on the court. He really does have an inside game (post up and jump hooks + outside game 3pters and 15 footers with ease.)


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>charlz</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The thing was Zhi Zhi didn't back him down, he crossed him over. That's why it was so remarkable, backing him down while out weighing by what 50 -60 pounds isn't that special. To me Bosh looked very awkward on defense relying on his athleticism to cover up his lack of instinct.

As for his inside game, I haven't seen but if he has good footwork, to compliment his perimeter game and high rising ability, then he is more complete than I realized, and most likely be a huge addition to the toronto offense.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> As for his inside game, I haven't seen but if he has good footwork, to compliment his perimeter game and high rising ability, then he is more complete than I realized, and most likely be a huge addition to the toronto offense.


now you know exactly why we're so high on him :yes:


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## charlz (Jun 9, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> As for his inside game, I haven't seen but if he has good footwork, to compliment his perimeter game and high rising ability, then he is more complete than I realized, and most likely be a huge addition to the toronto offense.


Just like your second pick Lampe - although I am a little disapointed to hear that he is too slow to be another Dirk and that they want to post him up.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>charlz</b>!
> 
> 
> Just like your second pick Lampe - although I am a little disapointed to hear that he is too slow to be another Dirk and that they want to post him up.


as a 7 footer whose 260+ lbs, i wouldn't want thim to be a Nowitzki type player. i'd want him to be agressive in the post and battling down there, rather than taking perimeter shots. he could cause some serious matchup problems.

GREAT pickup. better than Sweetney IMO.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>murdarous</b>!
> 
> 
> as a 7 footer whose 260+ lbs, i wouldn't want thim to be a Nowitzki type player. i'd want him to be agressive in the post and battling down there, rather than taking perimeter shots. he could cause some serious matchup problems.
> ...



He was never a great leaper, like nowitzki is. Plus the knicks need a center, not to say that he couldn't dunk ( those rumors were so stupid) he just can't soar. Furthermore since he has been drafted he has added about 40 pounds I think his last confirmed weight was at 280.


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## toiletscrubber (Sep 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Maybe everyone is mixing up the perspectives in the whole Wang cross up Bosh thing, maybe Wang Zhi Zhi is NOT that bad of a basketball player. 

Wang has the ability to do cross overs that are 10 times better than Shaq, he's a very fundmental sound player. 

The reason why he sucks in this league is that he lacks hustles and plants him self at the premeter too bad, and sometimes playes very bad defense.

Everyone is saying Yao's footwork is great and such, well, Wang Zhi Zhi's is not far away from Yao, they came from the same system, not the same team, but every where in China they basically has a same system training potential stars. So don't be too suprise if Wang Zhi Zhi made a move on someone, I remember when Wang totally take KG out with a shot fake. 

If Chris Dudley crosses Chris Bosh then I will be REALLY surprise.


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