# If Arvydas Sabonis had come 5 years earlier....



## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

Would the Blazers have won any championships? Discuss.


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## Kapono2Okafor (Oct 20, 2004)

PROB.......


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

I think so. 










Lithuania's Arvydas Sabonis walks off court hiding the match ball under his shirt after securing the bronze medal by defeating Australia 80-74 in the first medal final of the Olympic basketball competition. -- Reuters (ATL '96)


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## felka (Nov 2, 2004)

If Sabas would come to NBA at 18 and stayed healthy-he would be most dominant palyer in the league for long years....Well, americans who didn't see him before surgerys-it is not possible to believe how talented he was. At age 18 he was dominant in Europe.


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## MagnusPinus (Aug 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> If Sabas would come to NBA at 18 and stayed healthy-he would be most dominant palyer in the league for long years....Well, americans who didn't see him before surgerys-it is not possible to believe how talented he was. At age 18 he was dominant in Europe.


And still now is dominant in Europe


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## felka (Nov 2, 2004)

Americans saw him in NBA only handicaped-he can't run or jump more than 5 inches. Imagine Shaq without his jumping abilities-pathetic...


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> Americans saw him in NBA only handicaped-he can't run or jump more than 5 inches. Imagine Shaq without his jumping abilities-pathetic...


Does Shaq have Jumping abilities ?


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Yeah, Shaq has some hops.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

So Sabonis had a good outside game, right? Or more of an inside banger?

Would the 92 Blazers have beaten the Bulls in the finals? Would Sabonis been able to go toe to toe with Hakeem?


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## QRICH (Feb 2, 2004)

I remember during the Olympics, a young Sabonis went up against a young David Robinson and he absolutely killled Drob. Dunking on Robinson so many times, it was weird seeing him run so fast and jump so high. When he came over to the NBA in 94 he was half the player he once was imo. A very athletic 7'3" Center with a scary combo of athletic ability, strength, and bball IQ


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> If Sabas would come to NBA at 18 and stayed healthy-he would be most dominant palyer in the league for long years....Well, americans who didn't see him before surgerys-it is not possible to believe how talented he was. At age 18 he was dominant in Europe.


Come on, now...
I know Sabas was a monster in his teen age years, but still... facing top-notch competition?

Arvydas could be tearing it up in europe, but will you say he was better than Ewing or Hakeem?


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

I've heard a number of times people saying he was the best center to ever play the game, or would have been had he come to the NBA sooner. I have no idea though because I only ever saw the old, slow-moving Sabonis, yet he was still pretty effective at times.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> I've heard a number of times people saying he was the best center to ever play the game, or would have been had he come to the NBA sooner. I have no idea though because I only ever saw the old, slow-moving Sabonis, yet he was still pretty effective at times.


Pfff!
Drazen was a GOD in Europe (something Sabas was never percieved to be) but still he had a hard time ajusting his game to the NBA...

Why do people think that the teenager Sabas would make it?


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Pfff!
> ...


Maybe not as a teenager, but as a younger man. But like I said, that is only what I have heard or read. I didn't actually see it for myself. It was obvious to see though even in his older years how skilled he was for a guy that size.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Maybe not as a teenager, but as a younger man. But like I said, that is only what I have heard or read. I didn't actually see it for myself. *It was obvious to see though even in his older years how skilled he was for a guy that size.*


No doubt.
The "ancient" Sabas was a marvel around the court... but he was nowhere Dominant...

How good could he have been?
In all honesty, Vlade Divac-good...


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## WXHOOPS (Jan 15, 2004)

No doubt, I think Sabonis was the best center ever to play the game. Much of the US didn't get to see it, but think about this. Cross Jordan with Yao Ming, and that is what he was. No doubt, he might have been the best player ( PG, SG, SF, PF, C )to every play the game.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> No doubt.
> ...


Yeah, but wasn't he a taller and more athletic version of Divac? That is still pretty good.


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## felka (Nov 2, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> No doubt.
> ...


Divas numerous times said that Sabonis was best center ever he has seen, including NBA. Same thing said Walton .


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>WXHOOPS</b>!
> No doubt, I think Sabonis was the best center ever to play the game. Much of the US didn't get to see it, but think about this. Cross Jordan with Yao Ming, and that is what he was. No doubt, he might have been the best player ( PG, SG, SF, PF, C )to every play the game.


NO!
NO!
and
NO!


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> NO!
> ...


Did you see him playing in his prime?


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> 
> 
> Divas numerous times said that Sabonis was best center ever he has seen, including NBA. Same thing said Walton .


Walton is a moron.

That being said, it should be easy for a NBA player to say that about another player... Yet, Sabas never had the opportunity to bring his A-Game to the NBA... so why would one think of him more than Drazen, Vlade and Radja?


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## felka (Nov 2, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Walton is a moron.
> ...


Nobody ever said that Divac, Drazen or Radja were best in the world. People who saw healthy Sabas playing-don't have doubts.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> 
> 
> Nobody ever said that Divac, Drazen or Radja were best in the world. People who saw healthy Sabas playing-don't have doubts.


Useless M-A-R-K-E-T-I-N-G...


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Useless M-A-R-K-E-T-I-N-G...


Marketing to who?


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> Marketing to who?


Almost any european sports' watcher will say something like:
1- Drazen;
2- Toni;
3- Sabas...


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## felka (Nov 2, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Almost any european sports' watcher will say something like:
> ...


Are you kidding me ??? How old are you , di you see him playing in his 18-20 ? I doubt very much.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> 
> 
> Are you kidding me ??? How old are you , di you see him playing in his 18-20 ? I doubt very much.


I am old enough to remember Drazen score +100 points in a Croatian league game... and i can vividly remember him as being the mosted hated guy in europe, sports-wise...

Drazen was (and still is) #1 (remember Goran's dedication?


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## felka (Nov 2, 2004)

Drazen was great, but we talking about Sabonis. ( I think Drazen and Sabas were tho best Euro players ever).


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## Philo (Feb 13, 2003)

There is no doubt in my mind that Sabonis is one of the best centers to ever the play the game. He's is right up there with the best of them. I wish NBA fans could have seen him in his prime.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>QRICH</b>!
> I remember during the Olympics, a young Sabonis went up against a young David Robinson and he absolutely killled Drob. Dunking on Robinson so many times, it was weird seeing him run so fast and jump so high.


never happened - drob, who by the way hadn't played competitive ball in a year because of military service, led team usa with 19 pts and 12 rebounds. the soviets were led by kourtinaitis with 28 pts.

and there you have it - that's the single toughest matchup that sabonis ever had in his prime - against a guy who hadn't played a game in the nba yet and had just served 1 year in the military.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> 
> 
> Divas numerous times said that Sabonis was best center ever he has seen, including NBA. Same thing said Walton .


walton never said it. he said "The two best *young* players I've ever seen were Lew Alcindor (before he was Kareem) and Arvydas Sabonis"


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## LuckyAC (Aug 12, 2004)

Sabonis was certainly better than Divac and one of the great centers; I doubt better than Hakeem though. Drazen wasn't exactly a scrub in the NBA, though obviously nothing like Europe, so don't act like he proves Europeans couldn't hang.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

the problem with sabonis is we have nothing to measure him against. we know he was a good pro when he came the nba, but that was a different sabonis. it's almost like saying earl the goat managault was the best ever. we just know the skills they had, and that they were very dominant when they played. 

that all said, if he shows up in portland in '90, they definiitely improve their chances against pistons in '90 and la in 91 and chi in '92. duckworth wasn't a negative, but sabonis brought more to the table.


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## DucknBlazer (May 7, 2003)

Sabonis in his prime was simply AMAZING. We're talking about throwing down dunks in DRobs face, breaking back boards and flying threw the air to block shots. 

Here's some videos...



Sabas in his prime 

Well worth taking the time to check out.

Porter
Cylde the Glide
Kersey
Buck
Sabonis

Oh what could have been! :drool:


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## doctor_darko (Sep 29, 2004)

at that second dunk on D-Rob! Wow ... just wow!

Thanks for the links, DucknBlazer!


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## Ryoga (Aug 31, 2002)

take Sabonis's numbers in his first season and prorate them giving him starter minutes. It's a fair assumption, given the fact that it was his health what prevented him from playing more and that when he player 35+ minutes his numbers grew accordingly.
Well, you have a 23/12/3 center shooting 55% from the floor.

This just assuming an OLD Sabonis just staying healthy. Give such a player his old mobility (or at least a good part of it) and you'll have a dominat player, for sure much better than Duckworth.

BTW there's no way he could handle a 82 games season, had he come in '89 when he chose to go to Spain, instead.


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## ChitwoodStyle (Oct 9, 2003)

In my mind had Sabas come over at a younger age like in '89 then people wouldn't talk about how dominate Shaq was in the late 90's-today, but how he never could stop the true dominate post player, Sabas.

My center list is divided into three sections

3rd are your generic normal everyday centers
2nd are you Kareem's, Shaq's,Ewing's, 
1st is the Trintity of Centers

Russell
Wilt
Sabas

Those three are in my opinion hands down the greatest centers ever and they are a step above everyone else even the other greats.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChitwoodStyle</b>!
> In my mind had Sabas come over at a younger age like in '89 then people wouldn't talk about how dominate Shaq was in the late 90's-today, but how he never could stop the true dominate post player, Sabas.
> 
> My center list is divided into three sections
> ...


i just don't see how it's possible to put sabonis in that class when he didn't play a single MINUTE against an elite big man in his entire prime. a rusty drob is the closest he ever came, and he didn't dominate (although sabas was arguably already past his prime at that point). to put him in a class ahead of kareem, who won 6 nba mvp's and 6 titles, with countless huge moments, doesn't make sense to me. 

he had tremendous skills. beyond that, it's tough to judge. did he have the makeup? did he have the determination? the work-ethic? how good would he be as a go-to guy down the stretch? would he have developed a great back-to-the-basket game? what type of defensive intensity would he have for a full game? how physical would he be? we have answers to none of these questions. he had a tremendous collection of untested skills. that's not enough to put him in a class ahead of someone like kareem, who dominated the best players in the world - something sabonis never did.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ChitwoodStyle</b>!
> In my mind had Sabas come over at a younger age like in '89 then people wouldn't talk about how dominate Shaq was in the late 90's-today, but how he never could stop the true dominate post player, Sabas.
> 
> My center list is divided into three sections
> ...


Sorry, but i won't be as polite as kflo...

If you believe Sabonis was better than Kareem Abdull-Jabbar you know nothing about basketball! Period.


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## Kuskid (Aug 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>WXHOOPS</b>!
> No doubt, I think Sabonis was the best center ever to play the game. Much of the US didn't get to see it, but think about this. Cross Jordan with Yao Ming, and that is what he was. No doubt, he might have been the best player ( PG, SG, SF, PF, C )to every play the game.


He was half black/half Chinese? Doesn't look it. Nah but anyways, does this sound like a bit of a stretch to anyone else? I've seen the footage, he was a great player. Think about how efficient he was when he was old and injury-prone, then add in great athleticism. But this seems like a stretch.


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## Zalgirinis (Feb 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> and there you have it - that's the single toughest matchup that sabonis ever had in his prime - against a guy who hadn't played a game in the nba yet and had just served 1 year in the military.


Reading all this stuff kflo and Catarino writes without seeing Sabas before NBA (or seeing not enough) makes me very frustrated, so I better stay out than write smth on hot blood :upset: 

Anyway about Robinson. Watch this clip. Its already 1992, Barcelona, Dream Team and Sabas after injuries. 

http://microtron.ktu.edu/~greendeath/Sabas-Robinson.avi


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Zalgirinis</b>!
> 
> 
> Reading all this stuff kflo and Catarino writes without seeing Sabas before NBA (or seeing not enough) makes me very frustrated, so I better stay out than write smth on hot blood :upset:
> ...


what did i write that you disagree with?


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## Zalgirinis (Feb 18, 2003)

You want me to talk. Ok Im fine. Here you are.



> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> never happened - drob, who by the way hadn't played competitive ball in a year because of military service, led team usa with 19 pts and 12 rebounds. the soviets were led by kourtinaitis with 28 pts.
> 
> and there you have it - that's the single toughest matchup that sabonis ever had in his prime - against a guy who hadn't played a game in the nba yet and had just served 1 year in the military.


Never happened? Wtf? First of all have you seen the videos DucknBlazer has put in. Does it look like Robinson is stoping Sabas? 

You tell that Sabas was at his prime then. Really great to know that age 23.5 is called prime. 

Excuses about military... it might be. Also Sabonis wasnt leading in that game, but have you known that soviet doctors didnt allow Sabas to play in Seoul Olympics, because he wasnt at all recovered after torn Achile. And injury treatment at that time was very far from these days, what the heck even soviet medicine was far from that time USA medicine. USSR coach Gomelski convinced doctors that he takes Sabas just to scare the opponents and that Sabas will only sit on bench. But he used Sabas in the first game already. One leg Sabas missed only one game in those Olympics and played through unbearable pain, but sure because he wasnt the best scorer on team he sucked, because other guy was healthy but after military.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Zalgirinis</b>!
> Never happened? Wtf? First of all have you seen the videos DucknBlazer has put in. Does it look like Robinson is stoping Sabas?


no, it never happened. the poster i was responding to claimed that sabonis dominated robinson in the olympics. and it didn't happen. and in '86, highlights notwithstanding, robinson (who at the time was only a 3rd team all-american for navy) outscored sabonis 20-16.



> Originally posted by <b>Zalgirinis</b>!
> 
> You tell that Sabas was at his prime then. Really great to know that age 23.5 is called prime.


he may have already been past HIS prime, as he already had some severe injuries.


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## felka (Nov 2, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> 
> 
> Sorry, but i won't be as polite as kflo...
> ...


Don't be so jelous portugal kid-some day portugal maybe will have basketball player who gan play good basketball , keep hoping and praying.:rofl:


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## felka (Nov 2, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Zalgirinis</b>!
> 
> 
> Reading all this stuff kflo and Catarino writes without seeing Sabas before NBA (or seeing not enough) makes me very frustrated, so I better stay out than write smth on hot blood :upset:
> ...


Don't waste your time Zalgirinis-99% of americans haven't seem Sabonis playing befoure injuries, and dominant basketball for them is brainless bodybuylders-alike with diamond earings and dope in the pockets running, jumping and dumping, who don't need shoot, pass or think. They even reelected W. Bush-how smart nation it can be ( even after seeng movie 9/11-Farengheit). You , me and people who saw him playing before injuries-will always know that he was best center ever played.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> 
> 
> Don't waste your time Zalgirinis-99% of americans haven't seem Sabonis playing befoure injuries, and dominant basketball for them is brainless bodybuylders-alike with diamond earings and dope in the pockets running, jumping and dumping, who don't need shoot, pass or think. They even reelected W. Bush-how smart nation it can be ( even after seeng movie 9/11-Farengheit). You , me and people who saw him playing before injuries-will always know that he was best center ever played.


here to make friends, huh?

is it so personally insulting to feel that sabonis' greatness was too untested (and fleeting) to declare him the greatest ever? 

i can argue that earl "the goat" manigault was the greatest player ever, i can quote others who swear he was as well (other actual greats who played against him), but it will do little to convince most, because he never played at the highest level, and never accomplished what others did. 

not sure why i'm answering a post that's so insulting, but what the heck.


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## felka (Nov 2, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> here to make friends, huh?
> ...


Why is it insulting ?


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> 
> 
> Why is it insulting ?


Probably because you allowed your emotions to get the best of you and insult an entire nation because you don't agree with what someone said about a basketball player. Just a guess, though.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> 
> 
> Don't be so jelous portugal kid-some day portugal maybe will have basketball player who gan play good basketball , keep hoping and praying.:rofl:


wanna talk soccer, then? :groucho:


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> 
> 
> Don't waste your time Zalgirinis-99% of americans haven't seem Sabonis playing befoure injuries, and dominant basketball for them is brainless bodybuylders-alike with diamond earings and dope in the pockets running, jumping and dumping, who don't need shoot, pass or think. They even reelected W. Bush-how smart nation it can be ( even after seeng movie 9/11-Farengheit). You , me and people who saw him playing before injuries-will always know that he was best center ever played.


What does this have to do with basketball? More of this anti-American junk, even when discussing the game of basketball. Some of you international posters astound me with your ignorance. :|


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

I like Felka. I want to be hated like Felka.

*NO JOHN I CANT LET YOU GET AWAY WITH THAT ONE

BEEZ*


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## Midnight_Marauder (Dec 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> 
> 
> Don't waste your time Zalgirinis-99% of americans haven't seem Sabonis playing befoure injuries, and dominant basketball for them is brainless bodybuylders-alike with diamond earings and dope in the pockets running, jumping and dumping, who don't need shoot, pass or think. They even reelected W. Bush-how smart nation it can be ( even after seeng movie 9/11-Farengheit). You , me and people who saw him playing before injuries-will always know that he was best center ever played.



At least Americans can spell "seen", "seeing" and "Fahrenheit"........just playin with ya.

But anyways....Yeah he probably could of been dominant if he had played earlier....But it will always be a "what if" situation......Kind of like "what if" Griffey would of stayed healthy or "what if" Grant Hill would of been healthy his whole career....


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## mvblair (Nov 20, 2003)

I don't know how this idea that the NBA has had and always will have the greatest players in the world came up. There were so many great players outside the NBA in the 1980s who could have been superstars: Nikos Galis (Greece) ("I've seen Galis doing things that I have not seen neither Lakers nor Celtics doing." - Bob MacAdoo), Oscar Schmidt (Brazil) ("The guys today couldn't play on our teams, Oscar." - Charles Barkley), Kresimir Cosic (Croatia), Fernando Martin (Spain), etc, etc. But the NBA is not the beginning or the end of basketball. *Just because a player didn't play in the NBA doesn't mean that he cannot be considered the best player.* 

We (US Americans) are a very ethnocentric people. We believe that the NBA has and always will have the greatest players. We believed that nobody would touch our 2004 Olympic team...

...about Sabonis:

For those of you that want to learn more about Arvydas Sabonis, I suggest you check out the following links: 

InterBasket.Net Lithuania Forum - tons of great stories and histories
The Sabonis Network
Everything Sabonis

It's difficult to find statistics about the young Sabonis. On the internet, you can see references to USA/USSR games where Sabas dropped 31 points against Scott Skiles, Kenny Walker, and other NBA players...when Sabas was 17-years-old. I could site dozens of games against US players where Sabonis dominated. There are a lot of fun facts and videos about him against NBA stars: how he blocked Michael Jordan twice in Barcelona, Charles Barkley twice, and David Robinson once...in the same game. 

Pete Newell is one of the best developers of "big men" in the United States. Before he cut down his workload, Newell started working with international players. In 1984, Newell said this of Sabonis: _"I saw Sabonis make an unforgettable play last year in a tournament in Hiroshima, Japan. A rebound bounced high off the rim and over toward the corner. Sabonis went up for it way out there, took the ball in one hand and--still up in the air, off balance-- swept the ball backhand, like a discus thrower in reverse, and hit a teammate in stride downcourt eighty-six feet away for an easy layup. I'd never seen a play like it. The only problem with Sabonis is that he'll never have an opportunity to play against the best professionals in the world, unless of course he defects to the United States."_ 

And that is why Sabonis couldn't come play. After the Cold War politics boiled over in the early '90s and Lithuania declared independence from the USSR, Sabonis was injured. He spent some time in Portland recovering, but was stuck in big contracts for Real Madrid. 

Newell also said this: _"According to my information, it was in Lithuania that he first saw NBA games [on television]. They [the Lithuanians] picked them up [on TV waves] from Finland. He modeled his game on Abdul-Jabbar's, and you can see it in his shooting touch, but he can do so many other things. In fact, he does one thing I've never seen before: he catches passes in the post with one hand. With the other he checks his defensive man. Then he pivots whichever way the defensive pressure dictates."_ Again, that was in 1984. And Newell is not the kind of coach who gives praise to players. 

Bill Walton, a TV commentator who is often times wrong about his comments, but usually right-on with his overall assesment of players said this of Sabonis in 1985: _"Every time I've seen him play he's been awesome. I don't understand why some team just doesn't give him a million dollars and get him over here. Sabonis would be a star in the NBA right away. I can't think of one guy in the league who reminds me of Sabonis. He can do it all."_

An article from Sports Illustrated in 1988 said that when Sabonis got a 3 month VISA to go to Portland, he broke every single strength training and weight-lifting record in the NBA. That same article tells an interesting rumour of the day: Sabonis was actively being recruited by universities several years earlier. Many collegiate scouts saw Sabonis play with his club Zalgiris, when they toured Europe, and were thus enamoured with him. Louisiana State coaches spent time talking with Sabonis privately in a hotel. All of that is fact. The rumour says that members of the KGB cut Sabonis' ankle tendons, which eventually became the crux of his injuries, because the KGB did not want him to leave the USSR. 

In 1995, when he first played in the NBA at age 31, his opponents immediately respected him. The media said he wouldn't last longer than a year in the NBA. David Robinson said _"I wouldn't expect him to get rattled out there [in the NBA]. He's played a lot of international basketball. He's played in games where it's more football than basketball."_ But he stayed until 2002, when he opted to leave despite receiving numerous multi-million dollar contract offers in the NBA. 

Sabas is like two other internationally recognized sports celebraties: Oh Sadaharu of Japan and Oscar Schmidt of Brazil. Oh had more homeruns playing in the Japanese professional baseball leagues than any player in the world. Oscar Schmidt scored 10,000 more points than the closest NBA professional (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) during his career in Europe. Yet, we don't pay much attention to them, because they weren't in the MLB or NBA. It's like ignoring the accomplishments of the great ***** League baseball players Josh Gibson (who scored more homeruns than anyone in the MLB) or Satchel Paige. 

I've written a lot, I'm sorry , but my point is this: Arvydas Sabonis is one of the greatest basketball players in the world. I believe that he is on the same level as other great centers like Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. It's no coincindence that so many current players love and admire Sabonis' game. 

I don't know if Sabonis is the best center ever. I don't think anybody is the best. Every great center has ups and downs, and it is difficult to decide who is the best center ever. Sabonis, without a doubt, is in that handful of great centers: Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlin, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. 

The evidence that I have for that is as follows: 

Sabonis has won dozens of championships and Gold medals on a varietyof levels He did not win an NBA championship, that's true, but the NBA is not the beginning or the end of basketball. 
I have seen games in which Sabonis dominated. I have read game recaps in which Sabonis dominated. Even against the best players that the United States had, Sabonis dominated. 
Accounts from the his prime-years suggest only that he was a phenomenal talent. Not a prospect--a talent. His opponents, his opponents' coaches, on-looking coaches, team-mates, and fans have simply been in awe of him. Everyone from David Robinson to Pete Newell to Vladimir Tkachenko admitted to witnessing his sheer power and ability. 
So many of the worlds brightest young players from the '90s and today admire and try to copy Sabonis. Yao Ming loves Sabonis. Shaquille O'Neal admits to buying old videos of Sabonis when he was at LSU. 
Basketball minds have nothing but admiration for him. As I said, the best coaches of the world simply admired him. If somebody doesn't think Pete Newell knew basketball inside and out, than that person will never be convinced that the Earth revolves around the sun.

It's difficult and subjective to rank the greatest centers in basketball, but you cannot leave Sabonis off that list simply because Cold-War politics prevented him from joining the NBA. 

Matt


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## Crazy Fan From Idaho (Dec 31, 2002)

Awesome post, Matt!!!

Was Sabonis the very best center ever? Who knows? Who cares?

Was Sabonis an awesome player? Absolutely.

Would Portland have won several titles if he had come earlier? Without a doubt.

Personally, what I admire about Sabonis goes far beyond his performance on the court. He is well-deservedly loved and respected by his countrymen for the many things he has done for the youth of Lithuania in establishing his BB school and for keeping his promise to return to play for his hometown team of Zalgiris. I'm not Lithuanian so it is not really my place to go into all of that, but you don't have to be Lith to see that he is a very honorable gentleman as well as a phenomenal player.

To me, Sabonis will always be a champion.

JEGA!!!!!


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## felka (Nov 2, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>mvblair</b>!
> I don't know how this idea that the NBA has had and always will have the greatest players in the world came up. There were so many great players outside the NBA in the 1980s who could have been superstars: Nikos Galis (Greece) ("I've seen Galis doing things that I have not seen neither Lakers nor Celtics doing." - Bob MacAdoo), Oscar Schmidt (Brazil) ("The guys today couldn't play on our teams, Oscar." - Charles Barkley), Kresimir Cosic (Croatia), Fernando Martin (Spain), etc, etc. But the NBA is not the beginning or the end of basketball. *Just because a player didn't play in the NBA doesn't mean that he cannot be considered the best player.*
> 
> We (US Americans) are a very ethnocentric people. We believe that the NBA has and always will have the greatest players. We believed that nobody would touch our 2004 Olympic team...
> ...


Beautifull post Matt, big respect. I hope this post gives some info to so-called teenager "basketball experts" like paul catarino and kflc and shuts their mouths forever. :upset:


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mvblair</b>!
> (...)


Great, great post, mvblair... :greatjob: 

I may not agree to your conclusions, but you did a good job defending your opinions...

I only wish Sabas, in his prime, had joined the NBA... Then, who knows?


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>felka</b>!
> 
> 
> Beautifull post Matt, big respect. I hope this post gives some info to so-called teenager "basketball experts" like paul catarino and kflc and shuts their mouths forever. :upset:


This is really annoying and hardly called for...

Kflo is one of the most knowledgefull (sp?) posters in this site, and you obviously don't know what you are talking about regarding him...

Me, i'm hardly a teenager...
I remember vividly watching Nico Gallis (and Giannakis) play for a greatly talented Greek squad, Fernando Martin playing in the NBA (Portland), the young Kukoc years in Split, Drazen and then Sabas in Real Madrid, Walter Berry and San Epifanio in Barcelona, Carlos Lisboa in Benfica, the great Juventut Badalona squad, you name it...

Don't come to me bragging about euro basket, sonny... I've lived through it....

BTW, Matt, Oscar Schmidt was an unstopabble offensive juggernault, but the bum never could defend a lick...


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

sabonis scored 31 points as a 17 year old against a usa team whose tallest player was 6'9" 18 year old mike smith from byu and 6'9 19 year old steve woodside. smith played 3 years in the nba and averaged 5ppg in 141 career games (woodside didn't play a minute in the nba). the oldest player on team usa was 19. it's not like 17 year old sabonis was dominating nba players.

the game in barcelona, the dream team won by 51 points.

he played against robinson 2x as an amateur, and robinson outscored him both times - 20 to 16 in '86, and 19 to 13 in '88.

that was the best player he was ever matched up against in his prime, which unfortunately ended very early.

this isn't to disparage sabonis, just to put his career in context. he was an incredible talent, as i've said, he just was untested. and his prime ended when he was still very young.

i remember sabonis as a teenager - in the u.s. ralph sampson was the next big thing - and the u.s.s.r. had a counterpart every bit as promising and maybe moreso in a younger guy named sabonis. 2 new kareem's. they were both the next generation - huge, athletic. sabonis did have the rep back then for his vision and feel for the game. sampson came into the nba and wasn't everything we thought he would be. sabonis, in his prime, never got the opportunity to prove it. 

yes, he could do things that were remarkable for a guy his size - individual things. it's the collection of skills, and the interaction of those skills, that make an all-time great. it's a shame we'll never know how great sabonis was. but lets not paint a picture of him going out and dominating the best players in the world, because it didn't happen. he never had the chance.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>PauloCatarino</b>!
> Kflo is one of the most knowledgefull (sp?) posters in this site, and you obviously don't know what you are talking about regarding him...


shucks, paulo. thx.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

and i do appreciate matt's post - great info, particularly the quotes about sabonis.


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## Ryoga (Aug 31, 2002)

As much as I love Sabonis, I also think that some people exaggerate when speaking about him.
I'll summarize here my opinions, hopefully as objective as possible:

 Sabonis was the best center in the world between 85 and 89, when healthy, and he was a better prospect than young Olajuwon, young Ewing and young Robinson.
 Sabonis in his prime wasn't as good as Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem or Shaq in their primes. Why? Because his phisical prime was too distant from the moment he reached full maturity as a player! At that point he was still a player with a lot of room for improvement.
 Sabonis *could* have become the best center of all time... had he stayed healthy. As we've seen young Akeem progress to Hakeem the Dream, as we've seen '95 Shaq becoming the MDE in 2000, we would have likely seen a mature Sabonis in his late 20s with 80% of his phisical skills but with all the smarts and all the experience to be arguably an all time best. The sad part is that such a player never really existed...


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## mvblair (Nov 20, 2003)

Thanks for the complements, guys. I really appreciate what everybody said; that makes me feel like the time I put in writing it was worth it.

Well, I can't convince all of you. I know that and I respect those of you who are willing to at least listen.

Ryoga, I disagree with something you said. I think Sabonis was a mature player even in his early 20s (the mid '80s). In '88 he won the Gold, and he had already been competing at the highest level in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union. I think he was emotionally and mentally prepared to dominate the game in his early 20s. I understand what you're saying, but I disagree. 

Kflo, good point about the Ralph Sampson comparison. But the 17-year-old Sabonis was playing against the best collegiate players that we had: David Robinson, Mitch Richmond, Scott Skiles, Kenny Walker, Danny Manning, and yes, even Ralph Sampson. In 1982, the Soviet Junior Team made a tour of US universities, including Sampson's University of Virginia team. _"Sabonis clearly outplayed Sampson in that game,"_ according to Bill Wall of USA Basketball. Sabonis scored 20 points and 14 rebounds that game. (Sampson had 13 points and 24 rebounds, spending the entire game trying to check Sabonis on the block). Sampson was the first draft pick the next year for the NBA. If teams were able to draft Sabonis, he very well might have been picked first after that tour. 

And Paulo, my dear Paulo, have you no solidarity with your Brazilian brothers with your comments about Oscar?  Well, I don't think his defense was _bad_, I mean, it certainly wasn't Bruce-Bowen-Giving-Kobe-a-Nightmare defense, but it wasn't *terrible*...But if you can score like he could, do you really need to play defense? :laugh: 

Anyhow, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Actually, I think most of you agree that Sabonis was one of the top centers in the world (in or out of the NBA), but some of you are not convinced that he could have been as dominant in the NBA as he was internationally, and in Soviet and European competition. 

Matt


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>kflo</b>!
> 
> 
> shucks, paulo. thx.


i was drunk when i posted that... and you *KNOW IT!* :upset:


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>mvblair</b>!
> 
> And Paulo, my dear Paulo, have you no solidarity with your Brazilian brothers with your comments about Oscar?  Well, I don't think his defense was _bad_, I mean, it certainly wasn't Bruce-Bowen-Giving-Kobe-a-Nightmare defense, but it wasn't *terrible*...But if you can score like he could, do you really need to play defense? :laugh:


 I loved Oscar. He was killing teams way past his 40th anniversay, i believe... The guy was outstanding.. and yes, in his prime, he was not a terrible defender...

I guess my gripe with Oscar was that, eventhough he played good enough in International competition and the Italian League (the League where a too-old-to-play-in-the-NBA-McAdoo-was-a-superstar), he never *consistently* faced the best players in the world (NBA comp.).

But he was a marvel to watch, no doubt... :yes:


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