# Maggette over Simons?



## LakerLunatic (Mar 1, 2005)

Everytime i see clippers games, i hear the annoucners saying that there going to have to trade Maggette in order to re-sign Simmons. How the heck does that work? Why can't they have both guys? If they do in fact trade Maggette for they can keep simmons i think its a HUGE mistake, but thats just my opinion, what do you guys think? And do they HAVE to trade Maggette like the announcers constantly preach.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

If the Clips trade Mags, I'm done.

At this point he is our best player, I am for adding to the team, not subtracting. For the numbers Mags puts up and the $ he's being paid, he's a bargain. I still say had we brought in Baron Davis, Mags, Brand, all of our guys would be better players, he makes guys better. They are 7-3 out of their last 10, 10-6 in the month of March.

He's been the leading scorer in 6 of those games, 4 of those wins. That folks is a difference maker, you can't ignore numbers like that unless you just choose to be an idiot and some do that make that choice. I don't. 

Sorry to go on this little Baron tangent, but I just truly believe that if we had brought in a player like that, especially giving up guys who aren't even a part of the rotation for him, all this talk of resigning this guy or trading that guy, or this guy does this wrong, and that wrong wouldn't exist right now.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Really? I must be missing that, i havent heard that once? Are you talking about ralph lawler and mike smith broadcasts? 

They can keep simmons and magette in their sleep, and still have like 5-6 million left over. However, as the clippers have been talking the last few years, their number one priority is to get a big time star. Now, if they stay true to their word and do that, yes, they would have to trade magette to keep simmons i would think, unless simmons comes back for way less than other teams offer him.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Oh brother, magette is our best player? He has never been our best player. Brand is leaps and bounds over him. That right there will make anyone stop reading the rest of your post. 

Thank GOD we didnt get baron davis. Almost no team in the league, including the clippers wanted anything to do with his contract, shooting percentage, and injury problems. Hornets practically had to give him away, because even they didnt want him. Even if he does play a full year sometime, there is a huge chance (not like 10%) that he will have a season or possibly career ending aggravation of his back problem. Since its uninsurable, whatever team will then have to pay him 40 million for nothing. If you would like baron davis on your team, thats your personal preference, everyone is entitled to their opinion or their fantasy of who theyd like on their team....like me with jin and miles. however, dont say that anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot..especially when you are dead wrong with your stance. All GMS and basketball experts who say to stay away from Baron are idiots and you are the only one who is right? Please. Of course baron davis should be a difference maker on the warriors. They gave up almost nothing for him, and he is a potential 20 point scorer when healthy. Just on numbers alone, that means the warriors should win every game hes in now, but thats not the way basketball works. You say he makes players better. Thats something you have to look at the long road. If you want to look at the here and now, before davis came to the warriors jrich averaged 25 points. After baron, in march, jrich averaged 20 points. Mike jr. before baron averaged 16 points. After baron, he averaged 13 points. 

if the clippers gave up almost nothing for baron davis this year early in the season,its a possibility they would have made the playoffs this year due to the injuries, if baron himself stayed healthy. (hes only been healthy for about a month or two, so im not sure if that would have made the difference). However, thats besides the point, as elgin baylor and dunleavvy knew that. They are looking at a 60 million dollar investment. You do not buy a 60 million dollar hotel that you know will get you good results this year, but has the possibilty to fall down 1 or 2 years down the road....especially when you cannot get insurance on that in case that does happen. Thats the simplest way i can put it to you. That hotel could get us big money this year, but how many investors would actually get it, if theres more than a 50/50 chance that it will only be usable for half of some years, or end up falling down permananetly all together?


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## Starbury03 (Aug 12, 2003)

They can keep both. I think Brand is the clips best player also but Maggette should be their best if he becomes more consistent and get his decision making together. One of these two needs to develope a killer instinct somehow. Niether one seems to want the ball at the end.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

I too have not heard of the Clippers broadcasters say anything about trading Maggette. Now, I did hear some reporter on the east coast say something about there might be some trouble between Brand and Maggette and Maggette might get the boot in the summer but I am not sure how credible that source was. Trading Maggette is tricky, Maggette is a good 1-1 player and has been hitting his shot lately (not the last 2 games) and knows how to get to the foul line. He puts his body on the line each game and people question that he gets injured a lot but they don't notice that he gets hit hard every game trying to draw the foul. Not many players take a beating like Maggette does game in and game out. Now, Dunleavy seems to have taken great interest in Simmons. Simmons has shown he can be consistent and can be very physical. Simmons is my MIP, he has had a great turn around since being on the Clippers. Like I have said before this should be an interesting summer.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

yamaneko said:


> Thank GOD we didnt get baron davis. Almost no team in the league, including the clippers wanted anything to do with his contract, shooting percentage, and injury problems.


Do you ever pay attention to facts?

7 out of their last 10, .600 in the month of March, with the guy, and you can't see that?

Rick Adelman says hey those guys are better than a lot of teams going into the playoffs, no one was saying before they got there, they weren't beating anyone before he got there, and all Golden State had to do to get him was give up 2 guys that weren't going to be on the team next season, and with them being cap tied, they weren't going to get a Baron Davis in free agency.

As far as I'm concerned their future is a hell of a lot better than ours, not only do they have a core of young talent, they have decent role players off the bench, and even more young talent that isn't needed to contribute right now waiting in the wings AND they have superstar talent with Davis and JRich.

That's a hell of lot better than us conserving money every year just to strike out during the summer and be mediocre in the fall.

<strike>I can't address you anymore, you just don't know **** about the game, and rather than acknowledging facts, figures, etc. you spout a bunch of bull**** that you conjure up in your mind, and as far as I'm concerned there's no point in addressing people here like that.
</strike>


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Im the one who pays attention to facts, youre the one whos running on hopes and dreams. I just love how you cant even come close to challenging that logical illustration that i made that PERFECTLY describes the baron davis situation. I even surprised myself with that one. 

The warrirors basically gave up speedy claxton for baron davis. And you are surprised that they have a winning record? If he is healthy dang right they better be winning. A healthy claxton vs. a healthy davis? No comparison. But you cant get around the injury problem. Thats probably why you never address it in your posts since you know you are 100% wrong, and 99% of the basketball experts and GMS out there are 100% right. 

You also continue to shoot yourself in the foot by comments like golden state's future is brighter than the clippers. Oh my freeking goodness is that hilarious. NEITHER baron NOR jrich are superstars. They owe their PG who has a high injury rate about 65 million over the next few years, they owe freaking adonol foyle about 50 million over that time, and they owe a getting old derek fisher about 35 million over that time too. dunleavvy becomes a restricted FA after next year, richardson and murphy too are tied up for years to come which is good in one sense, bad, in the sense as they have no room to do anything, 

Clippers on the other hand have magette, brand, kaman, livingston, ross. Livingston being the only one injury prone, but its hard to say that after only 5 months..also has no lingering problems. Clippers also have about 14 million or so to play with this year and/or next in free agency. 

Youre the one who denies documented fact. Leave this message board, no one here would miss you. Your posts are such a cancer here, its almost enough to drive someone to want the clippers to trade magette, just to be rid of you here, since you said you would take off if they do.


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## TheClipSHow11 (Jul 22, 2004)

I like both of your takes on the game............ You guys have different idealogies about the game - and respect them - even if you think there are dead wrong. I love listening to what you have to say about something - but I do not like when you guys act like XXXXX and get defensive and nasty towards one another. I know you are both passionate in what you write - just don't get upset - it weakens your credibility.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

TheClipSHow11 said:


> I like both of your takes on the game............ You guys have different idealogies about the game - and respect them - even if you think there are dead wrong. I love listening to what you have to say about something - but I do not like when you guys act like XXXXX and get defensive and nasty towards one another. I know you are both passionate in what you write - just don't get upset - it weakens your credibility.


 :clap: :clap: :clap:


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

at least ive never had to have my posts edited to the best of my knowledge.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

Travis76 said:


> Everytime i see clippers games, i hear the annoucners saying that there going to have to trade Maggette in order to re-sign Simmons. How the heck does that work? Why can't they have both guys? If they do in fact trade Maggette for they can keep simmons i think its a HUGE mistake, but thats just my opinion, what do you guys think? And do they HAVE to trade Maggette like the announcers constantly preach.



I'm not sure what announcers your hearing this from. But I have never heard it. And its hoenstly crap if it was said. There is enough room in the cap to sign both Simmons and Jaric. What it really comes down to is if the Clippers are going to go for an allstar and use most of the cap for that player or not. Bobby will be here if the clippers cannot get a superstar next year.

Corey is going no where. I promise that to anyone here. I"ll bet anyone who wants to bet. At his price, and his talent level the clippers will NEVER find someone better in his position for that kind of change.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

agreed for the most part, BUT the only thing would be is if the clippers decide to save their money to go after someone next year...kind of like letting Q go this year so they could save for allen and redd this year. Thats why i keep asking who are the available Free agents in 06? If there arent any superstars, they just might sign bobby to a long term deal, instead of tanking 2 more years. Otherwise, if they cant get someone this year, and there IS a possiblity next year, they always could still have the room by giving simmons a big one year contract. 

There is an infinate number of possiblities to this offseasn, it will be one of the most interesting yet as weasel said. Dont forget the draft either. I belive (could be mistaken) the clippers have 1 or 2 first rounders and 2 second rounders. , at least 3 picks unless im cornfused. But one thing that is certain, the clippers will NOT trade magette just for the sole reason to retain simmons...its not necessary. If magette is traded, it will be probably a sign and trade deal with someone else i would think .


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

I believe the Clippers have 1 first round pick (their own) and 1 second round pick (the bobcats), the Clippers second round pick goes to the Nets in the Kittles trade.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> Oh brother, magette is our best player? He has never been our best player. Brand is leaps and bounds over him. That right there will make anyone stop reading the rest of your post.
> 
> Thank GOD we didnt get baron davis. Almost no team in the league, including the clippers wanted anything to do with his contract, shooting percentage, and injury problems. Hornets practically had to give him away, because even they didnt want him. Even if he does play a full year sometime, there is a huge chance (not like 10%) that he will have a season or possibly career ending aggravation of his back problem. Since its uninsurable, whatever team will then have to pay him 40 million for nothing. If you would like baron davis on your team, thats your personal preference, everyone is entitled to their opinion or their fantasy of who theyd like on their team....like me with jin and miles. however, dont say that anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot..especially when you are dead wrong with your stance. All GMS and basketball experts who say to stay away from Baron are idiots and you are the only one who is right? Please. Of course baron davis should be a difference maker on the warriors. They gave up almost nothing for him, and he is a potential 20 point scorer when healthy. Just on numbers alone, that means the warriors should win every game hes in now, but thats not the way basketball works. You say he makes players better. Thats something you have to look at the long road. If you want to look at the here and now, before davis came to the warriors jrich averaged 25 points. After baron, in march, jrich averaged 20 points. Mike jr. before baron averaged 16 points. After baron, he averaged 13 points.
> 
> if the clippers gave up almost nothing for baron davis this year early in the season,its a possibility they would have made the playoffs this year due to the injuries, if baron himself stayed healthy. (hes only been healthy for about a month or two, so im not sure if that would have made the difference). However, thats besides the point, as elgin baylor and dunleavvy knew that. They are looking at a 60 million dollar investment. You do not buy a 60 million dollar hotel that you know will get you good results this year, but has the possibilty to fall down 1 or 2 years down the road....especially when you cannot get insurance on that in case that does happen. Thats the simplest way i can put it to you. That hotel could get us big money this year, but how many investors would actually get it, if theres more than a 50/50 chance that it will only be usable for half of some years, or end up falling down permananetly all together?



I'm still not aboard with the anti-Davis movement. Although he is far from my first choice... VERY far... If he was the only superstar (I'm sorry if people dont like him, or his injuries, but the times he DOES play its at superstar caliber, as Golden start that are now 11 and 7 with him, and those games include beating Sacramento (Two times), and Pheniox, Minny, and seattle. Teams that Golden state in there wildest dreams had NO chance of beating before he came. Almost half of the games that Golden state won came after Davis came to the team and took over. Healthy he worked wonders for GS, and he would have worked wonders and definately made the clippers this year playoff bound. I mean, we all love livinston right? I love Livingston and Jaric. Jarics one of my favorite clippers, and its not like either of those two have had a heality season. Would I trade either of them for Davis... OF COURSE, and anyone who wouldnt would be foolish. 

The Lakers also did want Davis. But because of problems with Salary cap... Namely there Brian Grant contract, they had nothing to offer to get Davis. Lakers expiring contracts dont roll around until 2007-2008. And also by checking Real GM, the only teams Davis would even consider staying with didnt have cap room except for Golden State. He is a California boy, and he has lived both in Northern Californa, and of course southren california and played College ball in so cal. 

Hornets didn't give him away because they thought he sucked or was hurt all the time. It was because Davis requested a trade and said he would never be content in NO. He even had a fall out with the GM, and towards the end of NO decided to keep him from playing since he was going to be used as trade bait. If Davis wanted to stay there, and wanted to be the next allstar for NO, he would have. Simple as that. 

Perhaps you can show me were every GM in the league said they were not interested in Davis? The only places I've seen that werent interested in him was normally because the lacked in cap space and players worth trading for. ot to mention, if say a team like the Bobcats or some other low level team wanted to trade four players or something for Davis to meet the cap space, but Davis said "I dont want to play for the bobcats", sure he might have no choice, but most teams with GMs that have common sense know how stupid it is to get a player who has no interest in playing on your team, because he is bound to be out the door as soon as his contract expires. If you want an example, take a look at Carter, who claimed he was so unhappy playing for the Raptors that he never game it 100 percent. He was also hurt often, and some even then had questioned how bad his injuries were. 

Since switching over to Golden state, in the last 19 games he has avered just under 9 assists per game. 21 ppg and only 2.1 turn overs per game. Call me crazy but if your responsible for getting 9 assists a game, and getting your team to score 18 plus points, at the same time hitting your 21 points, and not to mention he has the ability to actually defend which is a talent a lot of PG's are lacking now adays. And more importantly, for say the clippers... Davis has a great ability to shoot the clutch as he has already done so four times since switching over to GS, and in the games were he didnt need to be clutch got the majority of his points and assists in the second half. Id say he is worth the money. Can he stay healthy? Well, he is young. Most of his bigger injuries were never considered career threatening, unlike say injuries that have plauged Jason Kidd over the years.

I got a feeling his best years are ahead of him, and the clippers would have been a better team with him. Now is he my first pick, no. But if I couldnt get my first picks, i'd have no problems letting him be my runner up.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

at the beginning of the first paraggraph, Again, youre not saying much...no team in the league who trades a speedy claxton for baron davis is going to do worse in the immediate, of course as long as baron davis is healthy, which he has been for a few weeks. OF COURSE the warriors are doing better. Id expect them to do better than they are even, but their other two key players have dropped off in their play since getting davis, thus theyve only won 11 of their games. I dont think there is a GM in the league who would trade livingston for davis. Again, bottom line is his injury. For an instant fix, yes absolutely...if you were borderline making the playoffs this year without a davis, money wasnt an issue (like perhaps the mavs, etc.), a team might consider trading one of the best PG prospects in years for davis, because they figure, hey we get into the playoffs this year, and if davis gets injured again as expected, oh well, without him we were pretty much a playoffteam just about anyway, lets see what we can do without him. Now, it would be a ridiculously different story if baron davis wasnt so injury prone. If he hadnt gotten his serious injury, of course you would trade livingston for davis, youd trade even more than livingston for him. Because during his only 1-2 good years, he showed that when healthy he could be a top 5 PG in the league. Livingston has the chance to be the best...but the best in the future POSSIBLy compared to a top 5 PG NOW, of course its easy to say which you choose. But no matter how you or arenas words it, there is no getting around his injury problem. To us here sitting on the sidelines, we dont think about the money issue as much since that part doesnt affect us as fans. But remember, teams are businesses run by business owners who have a lot invested, and are looking to get a return on their money. Its the same as my analogy of the hotel, which im sure you saw. Can you picture someone guaranteeing 70 million dollars to buy a hotel which for 1-2 years was one of top 15 hotels in the country, but for the past 3 years, has only been open about half the time due to structural problems? Perhaps you might say that is what building insurance is for. Well, with baron davis, you cant insure his injury. With the hotel you cant insure it. Thus, all the experts (doctors) say that its very likely that more structural problems could happen in the future (injuries), perhaps the building comes down all together (career ending injury), yet no matter what, you have to pay 15 million a year for the next 5 years, which not only sucks since youre paying for something thats not doing anything for you, but keeps you from purchasing other hotels which could help you (salary cap). Also, you just invested 5 years and 15 million dollars into a hotel (livingston) thats on the same street (plays the same position), as this other hotel, and who experts say could become one of the best hotels in the country. Do you see the point? It just doesnt make sense. Is it a guarantee that the hotel (davis) WILL have structural problems, and WILL fail? No. No one can say. But its a HUGE gamble to invest that money with no insurance. Not many people would do it. Perhaps donald trump (mark cuban) would. Or a company which has nothing to lose since they are one of the worst companies (warrirors) in california (pacific division), they already own a lot of old, over paid hotels (fisher, foyle, etc.) which doesnt allow them to buy straight (free agency) up any good hotels in the future, plus all they have to do to get this hotel (davis), is give up a couple of motel 6's (dale, claxton). Either that, or someone who is a HUGE gambler. Remember, 70 million dollars is A LOT to gamble on something that the experts say stay away from. 

Fact of the matter is, if someone really wanted davis, they could have gotten him. Its not like the warrirors was the only team he would agree to going to because they have this shot at a championship. TONS of teams could have easily given up more than claxton for him. Trading dale davis and speedy claxton for davis is like trading mikki moore and rick brunson for him. Of course some teams couldnt because of salary cap, but the teams who could have, many of them, just stayed away. here is an exceprt from an article i read before he was traded:



> Secondly, let’s just eliminate Baron Davis from the possibilities. When healthy, he’s a dynamic scorer, a smart passer, a rugged defender, and a triple-double threat. The problem is, he’s never healthy. He’s back on the injured list, yet again, and he’s got a monstrous contract that given his injury history, no team in their right mind would want to touch with a ten foot pole.


Same was said a lot by our own announcers, by our coach, by our GM, one other GM too that i lost the link to..


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

The problem is... Shaun as good as he is for a rookie, isnt displaying the type of talent Baron did when he came into the league. Not to mention, he has managed only what 20 games this season and its almost over. Because of Livingstons size and thin build, its reasonible to assume he might be injuried often. So if I had Baron davis, who was injured just as much as Livingston, at this point in time I'd take Davis. Because in every aspect of the game.. At least right now, Davis is a better basketball player. That might change... Livingston might blow up... He is a rookie after all... 

Jaric and Shaun have played a while now together, and apart. And in all but three games played, Jaric has gotten more assists, better FG percentage, and less turn overs. Since some believe Shaun is the future of the team, he has a long way to go. His highlight reel is short compared to others, especally davis.

Davis:
# Led team in assists with 7.3 per game (tied for 11th in the NBA) in 2000-2001
# Finished fifth in the NBA in steals per game with 2.07
# Was named the NBA player of the week for 11/20-11/26
# Was candidate for NBA's Most Improved Player in 2000-2001
# *Broke rookie franchise record for most assists in a season with 598 (held previous by Kendall Gill - 303) in 1999-00* 
# First on team in minutes played among players without a single start with 1,523 and first Hornets player to record at least 1,000 minutes in their rookie season since Alonzo Mourning (1992-93)

Not a bad start for Davis. I know he has been around a LOT longer than Livingsotn, but a lot of these records were achieved in the early start of his NBA career as a rookie.

But hey, to each his own. Everyone has an opinion eitherway. But the lakers are probably the the best or one of these best franchise building teams in the NBA. Everyone is laughing at them this season because of how bad they are, but if you have been a fan of theirs like have have for over 20 years, you know that this is how they always start out there future teams. 

The lakers REALLY wanted Baron Davis and Boozer. And rather you like Davis or not.. Kobe Bryant, Baron Davis, and Carlos Boozer would have been a very strong team in the west. 

Just like the clippers with Baron would have been stronger. Simply because at this point in time Davis is much better than Shaun, and better than Jaric. So the arguement with Speedy doesnt matter, because the goal of trading for a superstar is to replace a player on your team that isnt as good. So if clippers would have traded Jaric or livingston or both for Davis, at the time it would have been the same difference. (In a couple years, livingston could skyrocket into glory, Jaric maybe to, but until then they arent worth as much or as good as Davis.)

Besides in Stats, which davis dominates.. Follow the games. I'm a UCLA allumn, and have followed Davis since he came to the NBA. And anyone who thinks he isnt better than Livingston or Jaric now, has a bias towards him. The future is the future, I'm only talking about now. And the present is Davis.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> Same was said a lot by our own announcers, by our coach, by our GM, one other GM too that i lost the link to..



Also, Id like to see a link to this. I'd like to see the offical Quote by our GM, and Our Coach, and our Announcers, because Ralph said durning the NO game earlyer this year when the clippers lost, but almost came back that he said something to the effect of how tough it must be for NO's (Because the time they were having a horrible time winning) to be without there best player and probably one of the best PG's in the game. Then they had a close up camera shot of Davis talking to another Injuried teammate behind the bench. 

I dont recall him ever saying anything about not wanting Davis when the trade rumours started, can you tell me when that happened? And can you get me a link for our coach, and our GM or any other coach and GM that said they didnt want Davis?

And at the offseason last year, everyone and there brother thought we'd go for and get Davis..


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http://espn.go.com/nba/s/2002/0719/1407713.html
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http://www.hoopsworld.com/cgi-bin/news/exec/view.cgi?archive=40&num=10874
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The worest I could find on anyone from the Clippers org was this by Mike D.



> Dunleavy said that while he respects the talent Davis has, the Clippers' concern was his health and his hefty contract. Davis has been beset by injuries the past two seasons, and this season only has played in 17 games because of back, heel and ankle maladies. When healthy, however, he is one of the NBA's premier guards, with the ability to player either the point or shooting guard.


Which wasn't bad or god. It merely said that he would have some concerns that we all have about his health, but it didnt say he wouldnt consider it at all. 

But the regiester claims the clippers still went for him, but couldnt make the deal before the golden state deal went through. And it also said the only reason they went for the deal is ebcause of the expiring contracts comming NO's way, which they felt was a chance to start over and get players with more desire to play for the Hornets.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Livinston shows more of an upside in 20 games though as baron did when he didnt even warrant a start in his rookie year. But thats besides the point...the point is the injury problem. As i said, a healthy baron davis who is no injury prone is definately more valuable than livingston, even with his contract. Couple of things im not sure who has the wrong information on. It says he broke a rookie record of 598 assists in one season. However i show that he got that in his second year, and only got 300 assists his rookie season. (3.6 a game. livingston so far this year is 4 assists a game)

Lakers had very little chance to get davis, so wanting him doesnt mean that much. their salary cap issues are pretty serious. 

And here we have the epitome of the whole situation with the baron davis argument. You said it perfectly here:



> And anyone who thinks he isnt better than Livingston or Jaric now, has a bias towards him. The future is the future, I'm only talking about now. And the present is Davis.


No one is saying a healthy davis isnt better. even ive said that. Problem is theres too high of a risk that he will go under again as he has for what, half of the last 3 years? Also, i said this year he could have helped the clippers. But as in any businesses, you dont go for the quick fix without looking long term. You dont get a quick fix, when it could cost you 70 million for the next 5 years, paralyzing your organization. You dont be like minnesota and take a chance at talking to joe smith when you could risk screwing yourself with nba sanctions (no first round pick for 5 years). I agree he could have helped the clippers for the few weeks he has been healthy this month. But you dont do that deal unless he has an expiring contract.

Ill look for the links tomorrow...


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> Livinston shows more of an upside in 20 games though as baron did when he didnt even warrant a start in his rookie year. But thats besides the point...the point is the injury problem. As i said, a healthy baron davis who is no injury prone is definately more valuable than livingston, even with his contract. Couple of things im not sure who has the wrong information on. It says he broke a rookie record of 598 assists in one season. However i show that he got that in his second year, and only got 300 assists his rookie season. (3.6 a game. livingston so far this year is 4 assists a game)
> 
> Lakers had very little chance to get davis, so wanting him doesnt mean that much. their salary cap issues are pretty serious.
> 
> ...



The informaiton I got was from NBA.com, you can trust them. :yes: And you are correct, it was his second year. However, the rookie franchise record is account for theyears within the length of a rookies contract, without option. At least thats how I understand it. 

And the problem is, Livingston is starting on the Clippers not because he is better than Davis, but because Clippers had no other Point guards worth starting over, except for maybe Jaric(but with injurys, it wasnt gonna happen). Brunson is an old man, and not ment to start. But the thing is, Livingstons horrible health conditions this season, as well as a Jarics have made Brunson as important as he was. We keep giving crap about Baron being hurt, come on Livingston was hurt what three times this season? And shouldnt even be playing now? Its a lot easyer to have your assists per game be higher if you only played 21 games this season, instead of 82 like Baron did his first year. :biggrin: Not to mention Barons Rookie season when he wasn't the starter, he played 18 minutes a game, compared to shuans 22.9 minutes a game. Four minutes of play time, especally being a starter in the fourth Quater could translate into more assissts.. In fact it probably should be a little higher, but because of TO's, livingstons numbers so far these 21 odd games have been limited. 

Sometimes to take a risk can lead your team to the right road of a championship. Clippers have never taken a risk. And some have siad thats why they havent made the play offs in a decade. If I were to risk having a Baron Davis, and Livingston as the backup, and get rid of Jaric and someone else, I would have taken it. Because for as much as both of those two have been hurt lately, I got to believe that one of them will at least be healthy when the other is not.

At this point, next season Id have rather seen Davis starting on the Clippers than livingston. Livingston has a lot of work to go before Im going to deem him a PG god, that he has been predicted by. Because three injuries, two of which related to the fact that he is underweight and very thin, its hard to get that excited about him. And the best I've seen him do so far is that 11 assisst game, which is nothing to snub a noise at by any means, but I have seen Jaric (Especally the time before last when he came back), went 8 straight games with 7 or more assissts, and was a defensive machine. Livingston is no where near the defender Jaric and Davis are. Until he meets these requirements I'm going to say I'd rather have a Davis on the clippers. And I'm also going to say I'd rather have a jaric.

That being said, I do see the livingston potiential. And I never once intended to bash him. I enjoy watching him play, and I think he is gifted. I just have concerns, when you look at the majority (Not all of them mind you) of PG's that were considered the best of all time, you dont see a lot of 6'7 182 pounders. That kind of size banging up with bigger players is bad news waiting to happen.. And has already been bad news... Now Marko's 217 pound frame is a bit more desirable for a long hual. And Davis 223 pound is even better in my opinion. 

Like I said, time will tell rather or not we should have gotten Davis. I got a feeling next season that answer will be much more apparent than it is now.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

I've said how I feel about Baron Davis, and flat out we blew this one.

When you look at a team like Golden State, who like us, has a core of young talent, another upcoming lotto pick, and is NOT a free agent hotbed, when you can give up 2 players who won't be on your team next season for a young all-star talent like Davis, you do it.

Had the price been higher than 2 expiring contracts, ok I wouldn't have done it, but Golden State got a steal and they're already seeing the benefits, they look A LOT better than we do right now and for the future (at this point), and those are the facts.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

The fact remains, you dont take the risk if you are a team that it can bite in the butt later. if baron davis beats the overwhelming odds agaisnt him, plays 75+ games the next 5 years and becomes an all star, guess what? The clippers STILL MADE THE RIGHT DECISION at the time. Anyone can say shoulda coulda woulda in retrospect, but at the time, you have to make the best decision for the organization. I HATE the miles deal in retrospect, but at the time, it was the right move. Given the same scenario, 10 times out of 10 youd do the same thing because PG was the clippers need. 

In this case, FEW owners would take a 70 million dollar gamble, when the odds are stacked against. Maybe if he had a magette type contract, or a one or two year 20 million dollar contract, but not when you can LOSe 70 million. Ill say it again, 70 million. To us its just a number. But thats actual money, more than 100 times we will make in our liftetime. You go to vegas, and you sweat on betting anything over 100 dollars. Clippers need to take risks, i agree, but this one is just too risky. As i said, baron davis could beat the odds and become healthy. But if i am a shrewed business man, no way do i bet 70 million agasint the house.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> There is the small matter of the four years and $63 million remaining on Davis' contract, which is not insured against a career-ending injury. Did we also mention that Davis has been bothered this season by back and knee injuries, a pair of ailments that can become chronic?





> Baron has been injured most of the year and his trade value is at an all-time low. He's a former All-Star under contract for $70 million over five seasons. With Davis making roughly $11.3 million this season, the Hornets have found success at the point with Dan Dickau, who is under contract for just under $900K. Baron has suffered with a chronic bad back which was pre-existing before signing his extension with the club. The New York Post's Peter Vecsey reported recently that because of that condition, Davis' large contract is not completely insured.





> It’s no secret that Baron has an injury history. In the past two years alone he’s missed 48 games. Much of it was due to a bad back. Back injuries have a way of lingering. The Clippers would have to be confident that he could stay healthy before trading for him.





> Baron doesn’t come cheap. His contract goes all the way through the 2008/2009 season, and he’s scheduled to make an average of $14 million a year. That’s certainly not a contract to consider lightly, especially considering his recent injury history.





> He can be a disruptive presence on the team Hornets owner, George Shinn called Davis “immature” and “a prima donna” in an article posted on ESPN.COM on October 4th shortly after Davis made his trade demands. Baron has shown that if he doesn’t like the way a situation is going, he’s not afraid to publicly speak his mind. Considering he’d be joining the Donald Sterling owned Clipper franchise, this could be a potentially explosive situation.





> Unfortunately, Baron gets hurt a lot, has too big a contract, and it's not insured. I don't blame the Clippers for passing.
> 
> CM: Neither do I, especially now that we know the contract wasn’t insured.


Its sad what has happened to baron. Im not like arenas, and someone who calls people derrogatory names when people are injury prone. I really do feel for the guy, and his injury problem. I wanted the clippers to get him a few years ago, when instead of the miles/miller deal, they did the odom/davis deal that was on the table. Of course, that would have turned out to be terrible for the clippers since he came out with all of these injuries, but AT THAT TIME, it would have been the better thing to do. Now, AT THIS TIME, the correct thing to do is stay away from him. 

One more shot to keep it in prespective. Something a little more close to home. Lets say the average person here in our forum makes 30K a year. You own a toyota corolla and a honda civic. You go shopping for a new car, and you see a rare right hand drive, Nissan Skyline R34 GTR imported from Japan, valued at about 90,000 dollars. The carfax report on the car says that theres a high risk that the car can be stolen. That it has had lots of mechanical problems over the passed 3 years, and has been in the shop for MONTHS out of the year. They still want to sell it to you so they will give you a deal of financing the car for 50000 dollars over 5 years. Thats a whopping 850 dollars a month out of your 2000 you bring home a month. Not only that, but they say since it is a right hand drive car, you cannot insure it. Thus if it breaks down, you have to pay for it out of your pocket. If you get in an accident, youre liable. If the car is STOLEN, youre screwed, you still have to pay out of your pocket the 850 dollars a month for FIVE years no matter what. Do you take that chance? Most will not. Is the car guaranteed to break down, or get stolen? No, but theres a lot higher chance that it will happen due to its history. 

Thats the same thing here. Clippers just cant take a 70 million dollar chance. Not when they are this close to getting a playoff team together, not when there is such a high risk. 

thats all im saying. Im not saying shaun livingston is better in game 22 this year than barons game 25 of his rookie year, or anything like that. Its simple numbers. You dont take a 70 million dollar risk in the clippers situation.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> Its sad what has happened to baron. Im not like arenas, and someone who calls people derrogatory names when people are injury prone. I really do feel for the guy, and his injury problem. I wanted the clippers to get him a few years ago, when instead of the miles/miller deal, they did the odom/davis deal that was on the table. Of course, that would have turned out to be terrible for the clippers since he came out with all of these injuries, but AT THAT TIME, it would have been the better thing to do. Now, AT THIS TIME, the correct thing to do is stay away from him.
> 
> One more shot to keep it in prespective. Something a little more close to home. Lets say the average person here in our forum makes 30K a year. You own a toyota corolla and a honda civic. You go shopping for a new car, and you see a rare right hand drive, Nissan Skyline R34 GTR imported from Japan, valued at about 90,000 dollars. The carfax report on the car says that theres a high risk that the car can be stolen. That it has had lots of mechanical problems over the passed 3 years, and has been in the shop for MONTHS out of the year. They still want to sell it to you so they will give you a deal of financing the car for 50000 dollars over 5 years. Thats a whopping 850 dollars a month out of your 2000 you bring home a month. Not only that, but they say since it is a right hand drive car, you cannot insure it. Thus if it breaks down, you have to pay for it out of your pocket. If you get in an accident, youre liable. If the car is STOLEN, youre screwed, you still have to pay out of your pocket the 850 dollars a month for FIVE years no matter what. Do you take that chance? Most will not. Is the car guaranteed to break down, or get stolen? No, but theres a lot higher chance that it will happen due to its history.
> 
> ...



Not that I'm doubting your sources, but everyone has an opinion. Who says that and what are the links? Because most of the sports writers I trust say Baron Davis would have been a steal for a team like the Clippers.

And the negitive about joing the clipper Francise and being explosive wasn't in relationship to his injurys, but more along the lines of what if Baron isn't happy with the way Sterling does things, because lets face it Sterling has a poor track record with.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Of course baron davis would be a steal if he remains healthy and if they only had to give up a couple of expiring contracts/role players. However, again, thats not the point. The point is that theres too big of a risk. If he would have gotten injured here a week after the trade, and if he would have been out for his career, was the trade a steal? You cant judge a trade as a steal until it plays out. 

I think sterling has a great track record...cant find much fault except for him letting elgin talking him into the miles/miller deal, even though sterling for 1 month kept saying no.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

Well there’s some that I haven’t liked. The most recently being the last team build up in the 1999-2000 season with Larmar Odom (Who was avering 16.6 PPG, 7.7 rpg, 4.2 assists per game), who was teamed up with Michael Olowokandi (Who I didn’t mind that they traded, in hindsight that guy was a walking injury)… All traded. Odom, who the year after he had a career high Three triple doubles, and 26 double doubles, and averaging at that point 14.4 ppgs, and was the nba’s 8th highest rebounder, and he to was lost Miami because of a conflict in money. He also left the team as being the only clipper in franchise history to ever have had Four Triple doubles in a single season. (Sometimes I like to picture a team with Odom and Brand playing the PF roles, Q. Richardson playing PG and rotating with Jaric/Livingston, and Richardson (Three point weapon) often taking the forward position which he has shown he can rotate very effectively on the Suns, add to that the second year player Corey that was given Dooly and a draft pick, And don’t forget about the newly acquired Diaries Miles. With Kaman at Center (although you’d want to upgrade this later), can you imagine how good this team would have been? There was no salary cap issues with making this work. Even though Brand and Corey were signed same years, they could have easily obtained Richardson, and had the signed Odom the year previous, etc. It all would have fit. And they still could have gotten Bobby simmons, cause lets face it the guy was making 800k, thats chump change in the NBA. Don't forget about having brent Barry run the back court like he has been doing for the Spurs, the guy has both a great outside jumper, but is big enough to take it to the hole, just as Caron Butler.

Instead the clippers followed the usual trend and reformatted there team. And the result was losing a lot of potential all-star players. Brent Barry gone, Q. Richardson gone, Lamar Odom gone, Miles gone, etc. And thats only within the last five years. 


If your into the more nostalgic days, Trading Danny Manning in his prime for Dominique Wilkins, who was on his way out of the league, was horrible. And don’t forget about losing Ron Harper in his prime, who ended up being the hidden ace up the Chicago bull’s sleeves and the Dagger for the Lakers. Harper was also a fan of living in LA, and said if the clippers had matched his offers given, he’d have stayed with the orgization. The very next season after losing the basic core of there playoff team, they set records.. I forget how many games straight, but they lost like 15/16 games straight to open the season setting new records. And as a clipper fan, this was probably the most painful year in all my clipper fandom. To see us giving money to Loy Vaught and Pooh Richardson, money we should have given to Danny Manning and Ron Harper was very sad and painful. A little while later clippers drafted Brent Barry ( No need to debate Brent Barrys worth, as most San Antiono fans can tell you he has made huge differences for that team as a championship contender) and Rodney Rodgers. Then got ride of both for old aging has-beens and free agents. Don’t forget about Brian Williams, who not the most dominate player in the league had made tremendous difference on the clippers team, they refused to match what little money was offered to him (In comparison to some of the other players) and he too was lost. Lamond Murray, another player to bite the free agent dust. Wasn’t one of the clippers best, but he remained very heality through his career. (still is), and inproved grearly over the next four of five years with Cleavelend until his decline more recently. He was more of a defensive loss than anything. Lorenzen Wright, a key in the newly found Memphis Grizzles team, still even in todays times have been a great defender and a reliable player, he was traded for two draft picks. One conditional, and the other already existed.

The clippers have been for a long time the joke of the NBA. Because there record on obtaining free agents has always spoken for itself. Only until recently have I seen this change in them, and I have been following this team since long before many of the fans that like the Clippers now were even alive. This and last season have given me hope that they wont follow there trends. Bobby simmons in my opinion could be a test of that. For some reason I am scared to have faith in the Clippers, but I do anyways. Hopefully they will do the right thing this offseason.


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## Quasi-Quasar (Jul 18, 2002)

Baron Davis doesn't improve a team with his terrible shot selection or poor FG, FT, and 3 %'s, but his energy is the difference. With that said, the Clipps should be looking for an energy guy like BD at SG or SF since they aren't going to be able to improve on other positions much (you could argue they could improve on Livingston, but in Livingston affects games in more ways than meet the eyes and if he's healthy, next year he'll be pretty good). I'm not sure that it wasn't a good thing the Clipps passed on BD, but I think someone like Larry Hughes would be a better addition simply because of less monetary risk being involved.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

TheGoods said:


> Baron Davis doesn't improve a team with his terrible shot selection or poor FG, FT, and 3 %'s, but his energy is the difference. With that said, the Clipps should be looking for an energy guy like BD at SG or SF since they aren't going to be able to improve on other positions much (you could argue they could improve on Livingston, but in Livingston affects games in more ways than meet the eyes and if he's healthy, next year he'll be pretty good). I'm not sure that it wasn't a good thing the Clipps passed on BD, but I think someone like Larry Hughes would be a better addition simply because of less monetary risk being involved.



Tell that to the sonics, who lost to golden State tonight mainly because of Davis's shot selection in the fourth Quater. 



> Twelve wins in 19 games. Not bad for a team out of playoff contention long ago.





> ``It's like night and day,'' Richardson said of his team's transformation with Davis, a two-time All-Star point guard. ``Guys are just working hard. We had a lot of close games before Baron got here, but now he's here and it takes a lot of pressure off guys like myself.''





> Baron Davis, whose acquisition at the trading dealine has been the catalyst for the Warriors' resurgence, collected 19 points and nine assists.


The whole concept of If he's healthy applies to both Livingston, Jaric, and Davis. All three of them seem to be battling health problems, and livingston is currently pending surgury on his back. 

I'm liking the Hughes aspect more and more though, and he seems safer, although its hard to tell now adays. I think passing on Baron Davis will could be bad, the best way we will find it is if Golden State (who will have most of the team it has this year next year), is a playoff contender next year. I believe they will be. Only time will tell right now. This could mean nothing if Davis breaks his ankle or something early on in the season. But if he remains healthy all next year, and gets this Golden State team to the playoffs, I'm going to feel more regret that we didn't get him.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Lamar Odom:

Clippers did not make the playoffs with lamar odom. He also was suspended twice by the league for smoking mj. Its very rare for someone of his calliber to be stupid enough to smoke that stuff even once, or at least stpuid enough to get caught. Not only is it stupid, its illegal. Still i might have given him a chance, but they had the notion that they had a shot at kobe, which they did. matching the odom deal would have negated the shot at kobe. 

Same thing with Q. didnt make the playoffs with him, didnt want to sign him to a long term deal that would have not allowed them to go after a big star this year. not to mention they were warned about his back. Not to mention they didnt like him matched up with Magette. 

Manning: genius move, i dont know how sterling did it. Here was a guy who was a 20 point scorer basically in 6 seasons for the clippers. As soon as he goes to atlanta, he averages 15 the rest of the year, one more year only of 20 points a game, then down to 17 (in only 46 games), then down to 13 (in only 33 games), and down hill from there. Amazing how sterling was able to avoid giving a long term deal who had a complete downward turn in his career. 

ron harper - 

Again, how did sterling know this guy was gonig to tank? With the clippers, a 23 point a game scorer, total average around 20. Clippers get rid of him isntead of signing him to a multi year deal for multimillion dollars. He went from averaging 20 to averaging 6 poitns the next year, and went on to average well less than 10 for the duration of his career. 

Loy vaught - Incredible move by sterling again, giving him the money insteado f the tanking manning. He went on to average like 18 and 10 for the clippers, then when his contract was up, again sterling hits bingo on his fortune telling to let him go. As soon as he leaves the clippers, his scoring goes down to 3 points a game. 

Brent barry - after hes traded, he goes on to average 4 points the rest of the year. It takes him 5 years just to be able to become the player again he was with the clippers. Still he hasnt been able to over all average what he did with the clippers. 

Rodney rodgers - The guy once showed up to camp like 330 pounds, and hes not that tall. His career highs were with which team? yep, the clippers. Never was the same player after leaving. 

Brian williams - After leaving the clippers, first year averages half of what he did with the clippers. Next year, goes up to 16 points, next year back to 10, after that, he goes haywire and disappears.

Lamaond murray - Clippers let him go because he was a terrible shooter. 39 percent field goal, 33 perecent three pointers. After he left the clippers, he didnt have a huge drop off like all the aforementioned guys, but basically stayed the same kind of player..the kind the cilppers didnt like with bad shooting percentage, didnt improve his points average at all over his time with the cclippers.

lorenzen wright - very injury prone with the cilppers. Wanted big money, sterling said no, for someone who only plays in 80% of the games. (actually less i think). Sure enough, the next 5 years, he only averages about 80% of the games as well. 

Clippers have done an incredible job with not giving undeserving people long term contracts. Again, thats why sterling has one of the most profitable teams around. I admire his ingenuity on knowing when to pay players and when not to. Every single one of those moves above, i agreed with. Even in retrospect. Sterling is a genius. Things dont always turn out how he wants it, but at least youll never see 19 million dollar dikembe contracts, 15 million tim thomas, penny hardaway contracts, 15 million rahim contracts, 14 million finley contracts, 15 million van horn contracts, 15 million spreewell contracts, huge derek fisher contracts, huge adonal foyle contracts, and all the other embarrasing and franchise freezing deals. He doesnt pay huge money to players on the decline he doesnt overpay for talent.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> The whole concept of If he's healthy applies to both Livingston, Jaric, and Davis. All three of them seem to be battling health problems, and livingston is currently pending surgury on his back.


No its 100% different. ALl of those guys conctracts combined doesnt even match davis. Plus davis has a VERY serious injury, one that has been around for a few years, plus its career threatening, plus its uninsurable, plus livingstons possible surgery has nothing to do with his back. Completely different thing.


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## Quasi-Quasar (Jul 18, 2002)

I've got to agree with Yamaneko here. BD has a herniated disk in his lower back and a history of ACL problems. Jaric has foot and ankle problems and Livingston's problems are related to strength. The seriousness of BD's injuries can't de discounted.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Still it would be a different story if baron was only making like 5 million a year. With his possible production, it might make it worth the risk. But at 13 million a year plus thats just too much of a risk.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> Lamar Odom:
> 
> Clippers did not make the playoffs with lamar odom. He also was suspended twice by the league for smoking mj. Its very rare for someone of his calliber to be stupid enough to smoke that stuff even once, or at least stpuid enough to get caught. Not only is it stupid, its illegal. Still i might have given him a chance, but they had the notion that they had a shot at kobe, which they did. matching the odom deal would have negated the shot at kobe.
> 
> ...



Thats funny... I don't recall saying that they made the playoffs with Odom. I recall saying he was better than any player they had at the time, and let him go. And NBA.com two years ago did a poll, and almost half the NBA players said they smoke MJ, Odom was only a moron for doing it in a way he got caught. Also, in 2000 around the time Odom was busted, the NBA was thinking of adopting drug testing policys, for both steroids and narcotics like MJ, and the players union threated to walk out, and they took it off the books. Why do you suppose that happened? Probably because the amount of people smoking MJ, and possibly taking roids was enough to make them scared. To resign your free agents, it wouldn't have affected the salary Cap for Kobe in 2004. Free agents have a different set of rules. Otherwise no one would be able to keep two expensive players like Shaq and Kobe, etc. It would have come down to rather or not the clippers would have given up the MONEY, or cheap out like there history has shown they normally do. Odom was, and still is worth the cash he was paid. 

By the way were not making the playoffs with Brand, Corey, Bobby, Ross, Livingston, Jaric, etc. Should we not resign them either, if there contracts were up? 

And again to resign free agents, there are salary cap loops that do not apply to maximum cap. Hence why teams can go over there allowed caps, and why the lakers could have actually Signed both Kobe Bryant and Shaq for the amoutns they both wanted.

Q was also worth the money, still is worth the money. For his three point making abilites, an the fact on the suns he has shown he do them at clutch moments, he has proven he is worth the money. And the Clippers if they were willing to give the money, could have kept him and gotten a prosective Kobe Bryant. 

Did you just say Ron Harper Tanked? I could possibly agree that Manning was starting to show signs of struggle, and trying to fit into a new offense defenietly played on that. But Ron Harper? :laugh: He only went on to get three titles starting for the chicago bulls, and was rated for two of these years as Chicagos best defensive player. :rofl: 

Also adding to that he has:


> Has appeared in 106 career NBA Playoff games, averaging 9.4 ppg, 3.9 rpg and 2.8 apg





> Recorded his 1,500th career steal against the Detroit Pistons on 2/15/98


When Ron Harper went to Bulls, it wasn't for his shooting ability. They wanted him to defend. And thats all he concentrated on. He was a better defender then, than any Clipper on the team is now. If you argue that, you never watched a Bulls game in your life. 

As for manning, he didnt do to bad for himself after the clippers.
[/QUOTE]# Hit double figures in scoring nine times off the bench for the Bucks in 1999-2000
# Named the winner of the 1997-98 NBA Sixth Man Award after ranking 12th in the NBA in field-goal percentage (.516)
# Totaled team-highs of 18 points and 12 rebounds and added 4 assists, in his first start of the 1997-98 season, against the Minnesota Timberwolves on 3/25/98
# Scored his 10,000th career point, recording 14 points, 4 blocked shots and 3 rebounds, against the New Jersey Nets on 11/26/97
# Recorded his 1,500th career assist against the Cleveland Cavaliers on 1/2/97
# Led the Clippers in scoring in 1992-93 (22.8 ppg, 10th in the NBA) and 1991-92 (19.3 ppg)
# Named NBA Player of the Week for the week ending 3/1/92
# Has appeared in 30 career NBA Playoff games, averaging 18.0 ppg, 6.1 rpg and 2.4 apg


> Yeah he sucked, thanks Sterling for saving us from him. :clap:
> 
> If sterling made all the right moves by dismantling the team that took them to the playoffs, how many times after that did they actually make it to the playoffs? :biggrin:
> 
> ...


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

This is getting fun.

Didnt say you said that they made the playoffs with odom. My point is that they did not, and thats around the time they really started to set the goal of getting a go to player. They couldnt do that and still resign him. Thats why they let him go. Even if they didnt want to get a superstar player, and money wasnt the issue, i really dont think odom was worth the contract that miami offered him. First off, it was ridiculously top heavy, getting a lot up front. Also it was high in general. This was for a guy that has two drug suspensions. A guy whos average the last two years with the clippers was 13. something points a game. A guy who for his career, as well as with the clippers (6 years) has only averaged playing in 75% of the games per year. About the drug thing, if it is true that half of the people say they did pot, which i dont believe can be verified, that still makes my point more strong. NO player of his calliber has ever been caught, heck i can barely remember the last scrub who was caught. Also, if half of the league does it, and youre the only one to get caught, not once, not twice, how stupid are you?



> By the way were not making the playoffs with Brand, Corey, Bobby, Ross, Livingston, Jaric, etc. Should we not resign them either, if there contracts were up?


Terrible logic. Completely missing the point. The position the clippers have been looking to for a go to player/ superstar in crunch time, and the position that what, 80% of superstars/clutch all stars are in the league (allen, pierce, kobe, tmac, vince carter, redd), etc. play SG/SF. That is Odom's position, he was the one who is a head case, he is the one who was offered the terrible contract (magettes was more than matchable), so HE is the one you let go in order to make room for the new player that you hopefully get the enxt year which was supposed to be kobe. Heck, i even said that this year if it takes us to give up magette to get allen, you do it for the same reason (and keep simmons, or vice versa). You have to keep the rest of the team in tact, if youre not that far off from turning it around. (15 games of 5 point or less losses, even with key injuries). 



> And again to resign free agents, there are salary cap loops that do not apply to maximum cap. Hence why teams can go over there allowed caps, and why the lakers could have actually Signed both Kobe Bryant and Shaq for the amoutns they both wanted.


Again, besides the point. They could have signed odom of course. However, that would have meant they couldnt offer kobe the max. Heck even without signing odom, they still had to do a crazy amount of tricks to clear the money for kobe, like trading drobs, cutting house, etc. etc. Thats why they have such a good shot this year at the FA market as well. I believe they are only 1 of 4 teams which can offer out right a max contract to allen/redd. 



> Q was also worth the money, still is worth the money. For his three point making abilites, an the fact on the suns he has shown he do them at clutch moments, he has proven he is worth the money. And the Clippers if they were willing to give the money, could have kept him and gotten a prosective Kobe Bryant.


Clippers did even worse when he was on the team. Why? Because now as i look back at tape, i see what everyone was saying..he is not the right player to play with magette. Now, if the clippers were not going to get a superstar player, they just might have resigned him. But again, he wasnt the answer at the end of games. How many games did he win for the clippers in crunch time? His lack of ball handling skills was also terrible to team up with magette. His shooting percentage is also terrible at about 39% this year, same as last year with the clippers. He is way too inconsistent. he will go 9 of 10 one night, 1 of 14 the next, back and forth. He was fun to watch when miles was on the team, they made a good duo. But again, he was not the answer...magette was already signed, clippers want a superstar SG/SF, who's contract is up? Q's. He is the odd man out. Ill just ignore the comment of you calling him a prepsective kobe bryant. Thats crazy. 

Yes ron harper tanked on the offensive end. Anytime your numbers are cut by more than half in a one year time frame, your output is way down. rebounds cut by 66%, assists by 60%. He was a negative influence on the clippers, talking against them in the media, and im happy the clippers got rid of him before he started putting up 10 points a game with them, while getting millions of dollars. He has three rings, that doesnt mean a thing pretaining to his after clipper personal sucess, so does the 12th man on the bulls. 

Why are you even trying on manning? First of all, some of those stats are from when he was with the clippers. Others are just milestones that he reached which do not deter from the bottom line. he scored almost twice as many points in his years with the clippers, as he did for the rest of his career with other teams although playing for other teams 3 more years. (not to mention the fact that his rookie year he was out with that injury for most of the time) Thanks sterling for not paying him mmillions when he probably wouldnt have started over loy vaught after the following year. 

I said sterling has made the right moves about contracts and not overpaying. I also said that things didnt always turn out how he wanted it to, but thats life. 

Sterling is one of the main reasons why im a clipper fan. He is one of the best busienss men i know for making smart money decisions for his team. Hes now trying his best to make this not just an entertaining team, not just one of the most profitable teams, but now a team that has the best shot of a champion ship run.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> This is getting fun.
> 
> Didnt say you said that they made the playoffs with odom. My point is that they did not, and thats around the time they really started to set the goal of getting a go to player. They couldnt do that and still resign him. Thats why they let him go. Even if they didnt want to get a superstar player, and money wasnt the issue, i really dont think odom was worth the contract that miami offered him. First off, it was ridiculously top heavy, getting a lot up front. Also it was high in general. This was for a guy that has two drug suspensions. A guy whos average the last two years with the clippers was 13. something points a game. A guy who for his career, as well as with the clippers (6 years) has only averaged playing in 75% of the games per year. About the drug thing, if it is true that half of the people say they did pot, which i dont believe can be verified, that still makes my point more strong. NO player of his calliber has ever been caught, heck i can barely remember the last scrub who was caught. Also, if half of the league does it, and youre the only one to get caught, not once, not twice, how stupid are you?
> 
> ...



I like you Yam. So don't take my disagreements personal or what I'm going to say personal, on many aspects of the game I agree with you. However, if you think Sterling has He is one of the best busniessmen you know, I can't argue with you(He makes lots of cash for himself). If you think he is one of the best busienessmen for his team, your crazy. How many times have the clippers made the playoffs again? How many players have they lost that later went on to become allstars? How many seasons have the clippers finished above 500 vs below 500. 

Numbers don't lie. Either you win, or you don't. The clippers simply didn't win, and had they expanded on there last playoff team instead of trading away the entire core they might have made the playoffs a few more times, and players like Allen and Redd would probably be taking us more seriously. 

How about this, since all the players that have been traded away have only helped the team in your opinion.. and Since I went through all that detail to prove how it hurt the team and you disagree, why dont you tell me how the replacements have done so much better for us. You dont have to go back to far. How about the year after our last playoff run. How did those trades help us, even up to this point in time? (Please no future wins, as they havent happened yet. You got a fresh 10 plus years to work with up until now. Convince me otherwise.

:cheers: 

By the way, when you have one of the best offensive teams in the game. But one major fault is a lack in defense, you dont get more offensive players. Phil Jackson wanted Harper on the Bulls and Laker on the lakers for ONLY his defensive skills. And because of that Harper left the leauge with Five rings.
Forget about harper though, we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. How is the team better from Sterlings changes.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Again, im a weirdo. Im not like the normal basketball only fan. Im (was) a business major, and fan of business as well. To me i dont just look at wins an losses, i look at how the team is managed from the top. Of course its not like if the clippers made the playoffs id be mad. I do hope they do. But the two most important things in my mind are having an entertaining basketball team, and good business decisions. I think sterling has done that to the best of his ability. I would hate to have people like brian grant on the team, making 45 million over the next 3 years. id hate to have people like fisher and foyle on the team with their ridiculous contracts. That in itself would make it un entertaining for me. Id hate for the organization to actually lose money. 

At times you do have to take risks. Like sterling did with miller. But it didnt work out. The few times he has taken risks (mostly at the request of baylor), it hasnt worked out. He is super cautious, and willing to go through loosing seasons so as not to lose big time money. I dont blame him for the sub par seasons. Hes done the best with what he has to work with. Clippers are at a turning point now though. They are no longer one of the worst teams in the league, even with the injuries theyre not half bad. So to get them over the hump, they need to get a superstar, and see how that works out. Thats what sterling is trying to do now. If he was just content with not making the playoffs and loosing close games, he wouldnt be looking for that type of player. 

I never said any replacements have done better than people let go. That never was my point. My point was, sterling just plain does not pay people more than they are worth. Remember how critisized he was at not paying olowokandi the like 70 million or whatever he wanted? I dont even know who his replacement was at first, he might not have put up kandi like numbers in the beginning. But it was definately better to not pay kandi that much money, look how he turned out. Sterling you cannot call his bluff. These guys ask for big money, thinking they will get it, knowning their replacements might not match their out put in the beginning. But sterling would rather rebuild than overpay an ego like kandi, and that i respect. It may not win games, but i respect a man with principals. Thats why i hate baseball now. So ridiculous..people getting the money they do in baseball. Replacements arent always that bad if you compre their output to what the ex clippers do AFTER they leave the team. Such as vaught vs. manning. Harpers replacements vs. harper. Simmons vs. Qrich. Q rich vs. odom the year before. Heck, even miller vs. miles on paper was better after the season, just didnt translate to more wins. Elton brand vs. tyson chandler. antonio mcdyess vs. 3 players who played decently (not spectacularly) after the trade: Barry, williams, rogers. Not all of the clipper deals have gone bad. Heck, even kittles for 2 2nd rounders was good even though kittles didn tplay. They only gave up 2nd rounders on years that they already have one, plus they were able to get the most desireable contract in the league about that they can use to go after FA's next year.


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## swift88 (Jul 4, 2004)

Clippers are obsessed with efficiency. What might happen is they gonna trade Mags for a superstar (i have the feeling its gonnabe Ray Allen). 'Cause Mags is not quite there, and they think Simmons can fill some of his scoring. 

As much as I like Mags, that's not a bad idea...But keeping both is coo too, so watever


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