# Is Sweetney our best player?



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Forget the unbridled love thing.

He comes to play every night. Hardly a bad night at that.

Looks _real_ comfortable in the paint and in the starting lineup.


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

He is having a hell of a game and it's just halftime.


----------



## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

I willing to be converted, and his doing alot to make me think he is. Our team needs a number one option, gordon will thrive as the second option and deng and hinrich as the third and fourth.


----------



## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

Sweets is certainly giving us everything the guy he replaced contributed, and then some.

Again, I am truly shocked at how well he has played so far this season.

Just wait until he gets in shape...


----------



## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

Sweetney is our best all around player at this point.


----------



## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

bullsville said:


> Sweets is certainly giving us everything the guy he replaced contributed, and then some.
> 
> Again, I am truly shocked at how well he has played so far this season.
> 
> Just wait until he gets in shape...


Hopefully he goes from strength to strength, the more he gets into shape the more he plays, and the more he plays the more motivated he is to get into shape. An off season surrounded by some of our gym rats won't hurt either


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Talent>Jib, Sweetney>Songaila, who woulda thunk it? Next we should put Deng or Thomas in the starting lineup to replace that Good jib, but bad talent guy. Also, Sweetney does a heck of a lot more than that 60 million dollar fence post that we bought.


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

60 million dollar fence post. Heh, good one. I can't believe ben gordon actually made a ****ing shot just now. :boohoo:


----------



## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

sloth said:


> Talent>Jib, Sweetney>Songaila, who woulda thunk it? Next we should put Deng or Thomas in the starting lineup to replace that Good jib, but bad talent guy. Also, Sweetney does a heck of a lot more than that 60 million dollar fence post that we bought.


 That argument is overrated and weak.

when did Sweetney show non-jib? When did jib have to ≠ talent


----------



## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

32 min, 8-16 FG, 4-7 FT, 4 off, 12 reb, 3 ast, 2 stl, 2 TO, 3 blk, 4 pf, 20 pts 

"Who's this Eddy you keep speaking of?"


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

I know its early but I bet if we were to compare their stats tomorrow, they will appear to be running neck and neck with each other! 

And to think we got some picks out of the trade as well? So far so good. 

The season is long...he could get hurt or he could slack down, but right now, I am more than pleased with what he is doing on the court.


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

sloth said:


> Talent>Jib, Sweetney>Songaila, who woulda thunk it? Next we should put Deng or Thomas in the starting lineup to replace that Good jib, but bad talent guy. Also, Sweetney does a heck of a lot more than that 60 million dollar fence post that we bought.


Our "fence post" had a game changing block. Also 14 rebounds and some more blocks besides the one he had late in the game.


----------



## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

truebluefan said:


> Our "fence post" had a game changing block. Also 14 rebounds and some more blocks besides the one he had late in the game.


For the record, the "fence post" actually had 15 rebounds and 2 blocks, and after the game Skiles said it was his best game of the season and that he was dominant in the 4th quarter.


----------



## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> Our "fence post" had a game changing block. Also 14 rebounds and some more blocks besides the one he had late in the game.


And the pairing of the "fence post and the corner post" gave us 26 points 27 rebound 5 blocks 4 assists, 2 t/o and seven fouls. And they're still learning to play together. Yes against a mediocore front court but it's a start.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

If Paxson expected Sweetney to be this good, he would have been happy the night he made the trade, not enraged.

Walking between the raindrops.

Hollinger and the PER was right it seems. Sweetney is a damn solid player.

Another game tonight when we go to Sweetney when the game is on the line and he delivers. Nice. The only concern is that when the effort is 110% at the end of a tight contest... I don't like to have to rely on the ref's whistle, which is how Sweetney is going to do his damage in these situations, IMO.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Sweetney > Curry? 

Uh oh.


----------



## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

darlets said:


> And the pairing of the "fence post and the corner post" gave us 26 points 27 rebound 5 blocks 4 assists, 2 t/o and seven fouls. And they're still learning to play together. Yes against a mediocore front court but it's a start.


Great post, in fact I said the same thing a few days ago how Tyson and Sweets need a little time to get used to playing together.

From what I've seen so far, Tyson and Sweets play together more effectively than Tyson and Eddy ever did, with Sweets actually using his body and going after rebounds.


----------



## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

bullsville said:


> For the record, the "fence post" actually had 15 rebounds and 2 blocks, and after the game Skiles said it was his best game of the season and that he was dominant in the 4th quarter.


Tyson always seems to do his best against the Lake show. It's against them (then reigning world champions) where he had his very first breakout game as a rookie that I got really excited for.

Per Sweetney, this guy is pretty damn good. Good pickup. A rock. Very consistent. 

Reminds me of another 6'8, 260+ power forward who is apparently an MVP candidate, except that our current guy is fat. What is it with stumpy 6'8 Power Forwards this season ? Man.

But back to reality, we faced a crappy LA team that put Lamar Soda at PF. They don't really have anyone powerful in the paint and so we had our way with them. Brian Cook is a reserve anywhere else.

So. . .I'm still curious as to what Eddy is doing and what could've been.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Eddy and Tyson never did play very well together, especially last season.

Perhaps we have the makings of a better combo here. Skiles will find a way to put the best players on the floor in the best combinations. He did it last year and he'll figure it out this year as well, IMO. He's getting there.

Sweets has crazy big man skills.

Its nice when we go up against a team where our big men can dominate. The Lakers are clearly one of those teams. I'm not sure how many others are out there right now though.


----------



## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

michael sweetney is the bulls best player :rofl: or Chris Duhon


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> Sweets has crazy big man skills.


Sweetney is pretty much the same player as Eddy. Sweetney has the better back to the basket game (and I will bump that thread in a few weeks for all the ridicule I took), while Eddy is more of a physical specimen and can score easier on alley-oops, lobs, pick and rolls, and things of that sort. Both are equally bad as defenders, but Sweetney is a better rebounder. Sweetney might be a better player than Curry, except he is a million times cheaper.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Sweetney is reminding more of Elton Brand with every game. The very same soft hands/shooting touch, the vacuum hands on rebounds, the nasty combination of midrange shooting and bruising post moves. Only difference is that he's got more bulk and less speed. 

He's also far less frustrating to watch than Eddy Curry, IMO. He isn't a turnover machine and he actually knows how to pass the ball when he faces pressure. I'm glad Skiles seems to like him so much; it finally feels like we have a complete starting lineup now. So far, I'd call this a good trade. It's working out just fine, and we haven't even tapped into those draft picks yet.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Sweetney might be a better player than Curry, except he is a million times cheaper.


Only b/c he's on a rookie contract. If Sweets keeps up a season or two like this w/ the Bulls, open up the pocketbook.

Curry is a C and has more size, so people will pay a premium, but if Sweetney keeps producing like this, we will have to pay him.

Curry can score over people, while Sweets scores around people. Curry attacks the defender more, IMO. Sweets is crafty. Both get to the line a lot... especially Curry this season. His FTA is absolutely staggering for the Knicks.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Sweetney is reminding more of Elton Brand with every game. The very same soft hands/shooting touch, the vacuum hands on rebounds, the nasty combination of midrange shooting and bruising post moves. Only difference is that he's got more bulk and less speed.
> 
> He's also far less frustrating to watch than Eddy Curry, IMO. He isn't a turnover machine and he actually knows how to pass the ball when he faces pressure. I'm glad Skiles seems to like him so much; it finally feels like we have a complete starting lineup now. So far, I'd call this a good trade. It's working out just fine, and we haven't even tapped into those draft picks yet.


It is turning out to be a good trade, given the circumstances.

Looks like we'll have 2 lotto picks next year and a couple of solid big men in Chandler and Sweets. 

Someone should have told Paxson not to be so upset the night he made the deal. By his reaction, it sure seemed like he felt he was getting screwed.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Paxson's reaction to the trade seemed more personal than anything. He felt bad about the way things went down and the division between him and the Bulls, and Curry and his people. Paxson has never been sold on Eddy Curry, which is why he has never wanted to pay him the money he paid for Chandler.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

A little OT, but I'm gradually hopping off the Songaila bandwagon. He always looked so skilled to me, but his effectiveness seems limited in our system. He's a solid high post big man to use along with a competent post scorer, but problem is that him and Sweets won't play much together. I'm not sure if he'll pick up his player option after this year, but I'm wondering if we should maybe cut bait with him after the season, then make a big push for Shelden Williams in the draft. Shelden and Sweets could be a brutal PF combination. Then use the other draft pick and/or cap room to sign a true center (LaMarcus Aldridge or Josh Boone, perhaps).


----------



## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Sweetney is pretty much the same player as Eddy. Sweetney has the better back to the basket game (and I will bump that thread in a few weeks for all the ridicule I took), while Eddy is more of a physical specimen and can score easier on alley-oops, lobs, pick and rolls, and things of that sort. Both are equally bad as defenders, but Sweetney is a better rebounder. Sweetney might be a better player than Curry, except he is a million times cheaper.


You might wanna bump the "Tim Thomas is the most important player we are getting" thread, too. Ha.


----------



## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> It is turning out to be a good trade, given the circumstances.
> 
> Looks like we'll have 2 lotto picks next year and a couple of solid big men in Chandler and Sweets.
> 
> Someone should have told Paxson not to be so upset the night he made the deal. By his reaction, it sure seemed like he felt he was getting screwed.



2 lotto picks? Shame on you, in the "prediction" thread you had the Bulls finishing in the 8 seed. 

But I think that we will have a 15 or so pick along with the Knicks' pick, so we should be able to trade up in the top 3 IMHOl


----------



## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Sweetney is pretty much the same player as Eddy. Sweetney has the better back to the basket game (and I will bump that thread in a few weeks for all the ridicule I took), while Eddy is more of a physical specimen and can score easier on alley-oops, lobs, pick and rolls, and things of that sort. Both are equally bad as defenders, but Sweetney is a better rebounder. Sweetney might be a better player than Curry, except he is a million times cheaper.


 Eddy and Sweetney do not compare.

The only thing they have in common is the hookshot and are wide but that's where the similiarities end.

Eddy runs well like a forward while Sweetney is a pure post up guy who can play with his back to the basket. 

Sweetney has a mid range jumper and can hit the FT on a consistent basis.
Sweetney can pass well.
Sweetney pursues rebounds. 
Sweetney has a softer touch. 

You say they are the same guys but then you list all the ways they are not the same.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

spongyfungy said:


> The only thing they have in common is the hookshot and are wide but that's where the similiarities end.


They don't have the exact same skillset, no, but that doesn't mean they aren't very similar. They are both post players who are high volume efficient scorers, but are both way below average defensively. Obviously there are differences, but the differences lie within their similarities. They are good scorers for different reasons, and they are bad defenders for different reasons, but the fact is they are both post players who specialize at scoring downlow, and they're both terrible defensively. The fact that they have the same strength and the same weakness makes them similar.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

LaMarcus Aldridge is too skilled to be a C. He's a PF for sure.


----------



## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

Skill-wise, Sweets really doesn't seem to have a whole lot of holes in his game. He's competent in all areas, and he seems to be a pretty cerebral player. He's just short and fat. He's a nice all around player, and really, he sort of fits in well with the general motif of how our team is comprised. Pretty talented, but not so good that the opposing defense really has to make adjustments for, but is an important cog, when playing cohesively with other players that are pretty good too.


----------



## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> It is turning out to be a good trade, given the circumstances.
> 
> Looks like we'll have 2 lotto picks next year and a couple of solid big men in Chandler and Sweets.
> 
> Someone should have told Paxson not to be so upset the night he made the deal. By his reaction, it sure seemed like he felt he was getting screwed.


K4E - you are assuming Pax was upset because he did not get enough in the deal , but personally I don't see it this way.
It was reported the last part of discussions were about AD , probably Pax getting Zeke to say he'll release him , and as we know by now it did'nt go so well. I think Pax was upset about having to go and talk to AD who had great respect from him , he was our vet leader on floor and stands for everything Pax wants from his players.

2 lotto picks - it's still too early to say , I believe we'll make the playoffs from 6-8 position , not so much because we got weaker , but more because many eastern teams got stronger (Bucks , Cavs , NJ , Pacers with return of Ron , and even Sixers seem to get their stuff together after the Cweb trade and they're without Dalambert) , so having less wins with all those teams getting stronger , does not mean in any way we are weaker.


----------



## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

truebluefan said:


> I know its early but I bet if we were to compare their stats tomorrow, they will appear to be running neck and neck with each other!
> 
> And to think we got some picks out of the trade as well? So far so good.
> 
> The season is long...he could get hurt or he could slack down, but right now, I am more than pleased with what he is doing on the court.



Actually , Sweets has a big lead if you combine their stats per minute. The only thing thats comparable is points per minute. Sweets rebounds more (and thats on Eddy's best rebounding season so far) , commits much less TO's , even shoots higher FG+FT%. I don't know if you noticed , but Sweets has been a regular member of the top 10 Eff per 48 club so far , and Eddy ain't even close. It's comparable if you look at scoring , but overall big advantage Sweets.


----------



## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

There's no doubt Paxson was just agitated and tired about having to make the deal and the whole Curry situation. Did he not have a quote along the lines of "the players we've got fit in with what we are trying to do."


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

bullet said:


> Actually , Sweets has a big lead if you combine their stats per minute. The only thing thats comparable is points per minute. Sweets rebounds more (and thats on Eddy's best rebounding season so far) , commits much less TO's , even shoots higher FG+FT%. I don't know if you noticed , but Sweets has been a regular member of the top 10 Eff per 48 club so far , and Eddy ain't even close. It's comparable if you look at scoring , but overall big advantage Sweets.


as a Knick fan I knew trading Sweetney for Curry was really about filling our weakness's more so than getting a better player in Curry...Sweetney is one of the few players I have seen who gave ben Wallace fits on the boards,and I have also seen Sweetney display some incredible athleticism as a Knick...The problem we had was he played the 5 and opposing centers dropped off him and clogged the lane.His midrange game wasnt developed and he did have trouble at times shooting over opposing 5's.

Curry is no more talented,but he does command the double down low and goes over or thru opposing 5's...Thats the real difference I see.Hes a better fit for the Knicks,not a better player


----------



## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

truth said:


> as a Knick fan I knew trading Sweetney for Curry was really about filling our weakness's more so than getting a better player in Curry...Sweetney is one of the few players I have seen who gave ben Wallace fits on the boards,and I have also seen Sweetney display some incredible athleticism as a Knick...*The problem we had was he played the 5 and opposing centers dropped off him and clogged the lane.His midrange game wasnt developed* and he did have trouble at times shooting over opposing 5's.
> 
> Curry is no more talented,but he does command the double down low and goes over or thru opposing 5's...Thats the real difference I see.Hes a better fit for the Knicks,not a better player


I can only speak for the 9 games he has played as a Bull, but so far Sweet's mid-range game has been outstanding this season. I have been extremely surprised with his all-around game, but his affinity for hitting the 15-18 footer has shocked me the most.


----------



## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

sloth said:


> Talent>Jib, Sweetney>Songaila, who woulda thunk it? Next we should put Deng or Thomas in the starting lineup to replace that Good jib, but bad talent guy. Also, Sweetney does a heck of a lot more than that 60 million dollar fence post that we bought.


What exactly makes Sweetney or Deng bad jib guys?

That "$60 million fence post" has a better efficiency rating than your beloved (+12.56 to +11.40), and it seems like everyone on this board (including myself) is pretty disappointed with his performance so far this season. Of course, both players take a back seat to Sweets (+16.67) and Channing Frye (+14.00).

_All stats from nba.com_


----------



## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

I find it amusing that a "fence post" blocked the point-blank shot that would have given the Lakers the lead with ~40 seconds left in the game.


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> If Paxson expected Sweetney to be this good, he would have been happy the night he made the trade, not enraged.
> 
> Walking between the raindrops.
> 
> ...


IMO, he was upset over losing AD as well. You make mention of Curry but say nothing about AD.


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Wynn said:


> What exactly makes Sweetney or Deng bad jib guys?
> 
> That "$60 million fence post" has a better efficiency rating than your beloved (+12.56 to +11.40), and it seems like everyone on this board (including myself) is pretty disappointed with his performance so far this season. Of course, both players take a back seat to Sweets (+16.67) and Channing Frye (+14.00).
> 
> _All stats from nba.com_


Very good point! Both players are doing better than Chandler and Curry so maybe the knicks would have been better serverd to keep Sweetney and play Frye? 

Frye has impressed me! He seems to be, at least in the early going, a lot better player than I had imagined. 

As for Sweetney, he is a smaller Curry, no doubt.


----------



## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

truebluefan said:


> IMO, he was upset over losing AD as well. You make mention of Curry but say nothing about AD.


Yeah, I'd be peed off as well if I had to give up AD for TT. AD was a captain and veteran leader, while TT is the definition of "expiring contract".


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> Very good point! Both players are doing better than Chandler and Curry so maybe the knicks would have been better serverd to keep Sweetney and play Frye?
> 
> Frye has impressed me! He seems to be, at least in the early going, a lot better player than I had imagined.
> 
> As for Sweetney, he is a smaller Curry, no doubt.


Let me rephrase the last sentence. He is a smaller Curry in terms of scoring. But a better Curry in just about every other category.


----------



## WookiesOnRitalin (Jan 22, 2004)

When I think of how well Sweetney has been playing, I have to wonder how the Bulls would be playing if Tyson was playing better. 

Tyson played pretty good last night, but the first 8 games of this season is borderline intolerable especially when your organization goes out and pays for you like they did. If Tyson Chandler can get back what he seems to have misplaced/lost then I believe that I can honestly say I do not mind putting up Tyson and Sweets against any PF/C duo in the league. 

What's up with Ben Gordon? All this work in the offseason and he's still having a hard time finding the hole. Should we just tell him to start attacking the rim more because his shooting has been infuriating and toxic. Ben Gordon is no good to us if he cannot score points. He is an undersized shooting guard and he must give the team an advantage offensively because if he doesn't, he's putting the team at a disadvantage. His defensive prowess is not why he's in the lineup. It's his ability to score. 

If Ben Gordon and Tyson Chandler can manage to find their way back, this team should be slotted in the 5th spot in the Eastern Conference, but at this point, it just has not happened.


----------



## MVPKirk (Dec 17, 2004)

truebluefan said:


> Very good point! Both players are doing better than Chandler and Curry so maybe the knicks would have been better serverd to keep Sweetney and play Frye?
> 
> Frye has impressed me! He seems to be, at least in the early going, a lot better player than I had imagined.


I don't think the Knicks knew that Frye would be this good...


----------



## Deke (Jul 27, 2005)

watching sweeteny last night he reminds me of a lot of a very cheap charles barkley. He really is a big improvement from curry, and uses what he has to his advantage a lot like sir charles. He has a nice inside game, decent defense, and ok rebounding. I'm not regretting this trade at all, but up to the season so far i'm not liking Gordon's so called improvement.


----------



## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

I picked both him and Chandler to be on my fantasy team....only one of them gets me any points.....Go Bulls :cheers:


----------



## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

BenGordon said:


> watching sweeteny last night he reminds me of a lot of a very cheap charles barkley. He really is a big improvement from curry, and uses what he has to his advantage a lot like sir charles. He has a nice inside game, decent defense, and ok rebounding. I'm not regretting this trade at all, but up to the season so far i'm not liking Gordon's so called improvement.


I think Sir Charles had more athleticism and leaping ability than Sweets, so IMHO a better comparison would be Wes Unseld.

Wes played most of his career at center despite being only 6-7 and 245. I don't think Wes had the offensive skills that Sweets has shown, but he was a dominant rebounder who still averaged just over 10 points per game in his career.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

bullsville said:


> I think Sir Charles had more athleticism and leaping ability than Sweets, so IMHO a better comparison would be Wes Unseld.
> 
> Wes played most of his career at center despite being only 6-7 and 245. I don't think Wes had the offensive skills that Sweets has shown, but he was a dominant rebounder who still averaged just over 10 points per game in his career.


There's a similarity in the width of arse, but that's about it.

Unseld was a brilliant high post passer and one of the top rebounders of his time. He was known as one of the best outlet passers (to start fast breaks) in the history of the game. And he was a defensive specialist.

Unseld had bum knees and always shot off the wrong foot (had to). He had little of the traditional post moves you'd expect in a C.

Sweetney is.... Othella on steroids.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

bullet said:


> It was reported the last part of discussions were about AD , probably Pax getting Zeke to say he'll release him , and as we know by now it did'nt go so well. I think Pax was upset about having to go and talk to AD who had great respect from him , he was our vet leader on floor and stands for everything Pax wants from his players.


Do you think if Pax just traded Curry and AD for Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett the reaction would have been the same?


I don't.


----------



## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

DaBullz said:


> There's a similarity in the width of arse, but that's about it.
> 
> Unseld was a brilliant high post passer and one of the top rebounders of his time. He was known as one of the best outlet passers (to start fast breaks) in the history of the game. And he was a defensive specialist.
> 
> ...


In his 2 starts, Sweets has averaged 3.0 assists. At the same age, Wes averaged 2.6 and 3.5 assists in his first 2 seasons, and he averaged 3.9 assists for his career. Sweets also blocks more shots than Wes, whose career average was 0.6 blocks per game.

But yeah, on defense and rebounding Wes had it all over Sweets. Of course, Wes is a Hall Of Famer, so I certainly don't expect Sweets to match his overall game- but I *do* expect Sweets to average a double-double if he keeps getting 35 minutes or so. Wes averaged 10.8 pts and 14.0 reb for his career, and I see no reason that Sweets can't give us 14.0 pts and 10.8 reb.


----------



## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> Do you think if Pax just traded Curry and AD for Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett the reaction would have been the same?
> 
> 
> I don't.



True , but there's a reason those trades cannot happen.

also , in the same way , I could say I think Pax reaction would be all different if instead of AD he'd send ERob and JYD (if we had there contracts to trade).

Bottomline K4E - we don't know what was going on in Pax's mind , for all we know it could be he just ruined his best suit seconds before , or had a period (well we know about that). so we're just shooting in the dark , and any opinion is legit. I think the fact that AD was the last part of the talks , and Pax obviously did not get Zekes promise (and still having to go through with trade due to EC's condition), was what made him come out upset.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

bullet said:


> Bottomline K4E - we don't know what was going on in Pax's mind , for all we know it could be he just ruined his best suit seconds before , or had a period (well we know about that). so we're just shooting in the dark , and any opinion is legit. I think the fact that AD was the last part of the talks , and Pax obviously did not get Zekes promise (and still having to go through with trade due to EC's condition), was what made him come out upset.


Yes, but we do know what is reasonable to infer. Your suit scenario is not reasonable, nor are many other opinions. So any opinion is not legit.

I agree that Paxson being strongarmed by IT into coughing up AD was one of the reasons he was upset. He realiezed that the team would be seriously hamstrung size-wise for the season. He gave up both his centers... leaving only Chandler behind.

My point is that Paxson didn't trade for Sweetney. He accepted Sweetney after painting himself into a corner with the Curry situation. 

Sweetney is great. But most people here that I've read still say "we need a center." This means that either Chandler or Sweets hits the bench and we're in a center aquistion mode... and you have to pay pretty dearly for talented 7 footers in this league.

And the percieved quality of the package aquired in return for Curry and AD certianly played a huge role as well, if you believe that Paxson would have happliy traded Curry and AD for Garnett or Duncan.

When a GM makes a move that he feels has improved his team, he's happy, not enraged and unwilling to talk.


----------



## bullsville (Jan 23, 2005)

I fail to see how AD is a center at 6-9 and 245, while Sweets isn't a center at 6-8 and 270?

And it makes me wonder...


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

bullsville said:


> I fail to see how AD is a center at 6-9 and 245, while Sweets isn't a center at 6-8 and 270?
> 
> And it makes me wonder...


If Sweetney played defense the way AD has throughout his career, there would be no arguement. 

He got three blocks last night, yet all of us talk about his bad defense. Interesting.


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Yes, but we do know what is reasonable to infer. Your suit scenario is not reasonable, nor are many other opinions. So any opinion is not legit.
> 
> I agree that Paxson being strongarmed by IT into coughing up AD was one of the reasons he was upset. He realiezed that the team would be seriously hamstrung size-wise for the season. He gave up both his centers... leaving only Chandler behind.
> 
> ...


True. But Chandler came off the bench last season. Why not do the same this year?


----------



## MightyMouse1984 (Nov 21, 2005)

as far as right now....Yup. The man is suprising everyone.


----------



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

MVPKirk said:


> I don't think the Knicks knew that Frye would be this good...


I think the Knicks had a very good idea of Fryes strength and weaknesses and jusy how good a shooter he was/is..Otherwise Zeke would have been all over Gerald Green...

Its clear that NY management viewed Frye as a 4,which is why Zeke overpaid for Jerome James,and then brought in Curry....

Frye is the perfect compliment to Curry...Hes Chandler-lite when it comes to rebounding and D,but has one of the best perimeter games I have seen in a big man outside of Dirk,Sheed and Duncan..Its shocking how pure his stroke has been..

Had management believed Frye was a 5,Sweetney may still be here...


----------



## Future (Jul 24, 2002)

Mike Sweetney is giving us what Eddy Curry gave us, but he is much more consistant. Last year, we went to the post to start the games with Eddy Curry. We are doing the same with Sweetney. It may be early to say he is much more consistant, but so far, he is not disappearing from games as Curry did sometimes. The main thing we have to worry about Sweets is his foul trouble.

But I have much more confidence in Sweetney. He is a better rebounder and a better defender. He has basketball intelligence. I liked the trade when it happened.... the only thing I didn't like was AD being involved. We would be a much,much better team if AD were taking Othella's and some of Songaila's minutes.


----------



## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Why does Paxson's reaction to trading Curry matter in a conversation about how well Sweetney is playing? 

We all know that Paxson, much to his discredit, didn't really want to make the trade. 

Anyway, Sweetney looks terrific so far. I'm starting to wonder what we're going to do with all that capspace now. Of course, Sweets may just be playing outside of himself right now and might come back to earth. But I don't get that impression. Its not like he's forcing things and just getting lucky. He lets the game come to him and takes what is given. I think we are seeing what we are going to get, and I like it.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Sweetney looks like our best option right now, but as I wrote in this thread, I don't know that he's that good of a fit in the long run or that we're anything close to a championship frontcourt with him out there.

I'm reading a lot of stuff in this thread that just doesn't ring true to me when watching him. While it's very easy to focus on numbers and he produces them, we don't seem to be playing all that well, and I think part of the reasons we're not are the intangible limitations in his game.

Because when you fit the whole team together, we've basically got an athletic running team. Except Sweetney. Playing to his advantages forces us to play away from everyone else's. And defensively he's the least capable guy on the floor on most teams. Bigger guys score over him, quicker guys score around him.


----------



## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Sweetney is great. But most people here that I've read still say "we need a center." This means that either Chandler or Sweets hits the bench and we're in a center aquistion mode... and you have to pay pretty dearly for talented 7 footers in this league.


I think if we had Curry now instead of Sweetney I'd still be calling for another big body. Not because Ed or Sweets aren't effective, but because pairing either with Tyson still only gives us two effective big men on the entire roster.

Not sure why we haven't been using Othella more, or why Songaila is playing so poorly..... but do either of them really have the size we need inside either?


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> Sweetney looks like our best option right now, but as I wrote in this thread, I don't know that he's that good of a fit in the long run or that we're anything close to a championship frontcourt with him out there.
> 
> I'm reading a lot of stuff in this thread that just doesn't ring true to me when watching him. While it's very easy to focus on numbers and he produces them, we don't seem to be playing all that well, and I think part of the reasons we're not are the intangible limitations in his game.
> 
> Because when you fit the whole team together, we've basically got an athletic running team. Except Sweetney. Playing to his advantages forces us to play away from everyone else's. And defensively he's the least capable guy on the floor on most teams. Bigger guys score over him, quicker guys score around him.



You may be right, but you know, last season I thought the very same thing with Curry on the team. We were a good running team when Curry was not in there.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> True. But Chandler came off the bench last season. Why not do the same this year?


Fine with me. Now we just need someone that can start at the 5.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> Sweetney looks like our best option right now, but as I wrote in this thread, I don't know that he's that good of a fit in the long run or that we're anything close to a championship frontcourt with him out there.
> 
> I'm reading a lot of stuff in this thread that just doesn't ring true to me when watching him. While it's very easy to focus on numbers and he produces them, we don't seem to be playing all that well, and I think part of the reasons we're not are the intangible limitations in his game.
> 
> Because when you fit the whole team together, we've basically got an athletic running team. Except Sweetney. Playing to his advantages forces us to play away from everyone else's. And defensively he's the least capable guy on the floor on most teams. Bigger guys score over him, quicker guys score around him.


But strangely, Mike, we've never run with this group. I've never been quite sure why. Especially when we had Jay Williams, I was always begging for us to run. He might have been the fastest guy in the league with the ball running downcourt, or at least he was right up there with Kidd. We never ran, and it hasn't changed since. 

It seems like we have the youth and athleticism to run. But on the whole, our finishing at the rim is attrocious. That goes for layups, dunks, and all out wimpyness. Who on our team takes it hard to the rack, on a fast break or otherwise? Not Hinrich, Gordon, or Duhon. Our two small forwards are the best we have at this. If Chandler could catch the frickin' rock, he would potentially be able to live on fast break points. Nobody his height is capable of running the floor like he can. But this has never been part of his game, and I think it's due to his hands.

And when we do get fast break opportunities, we blow them an alarming number of times. We look like we're built to run, but we're not.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Wynn said:


> Not sure why we haven't been using Othella more, or why Songaila is playing so poorly..... but do either of them really have the size we need inside either?


No, they don't. 

Its just exposed more now that Curry and AD are off the team, with Othella that is. As for Songalia, I think his production had a lot to do with playing in the Sacramento offense. Even in Sacto, he was known to be a lousy rebounder and defender... he's a soft, yet "skilled", Euro big man.

Othella is playing rotten so far in the minutes he's given. He's regressed back to where he's been for most of his career. Maybe he can put together a nice 10-15 game spurt for us sometime this season if we need him.

EDIT: MikeDC's points about Sweets are spot on. He has some serious flaws... I'd love him as our 3rd big man, along with Chandler and center X.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> You may be right, but you know, last season I thought the very same thing with Curry on the team. We were a good running team when Curry was not in there.


I disagree. We were a pretty good running team with him too. Not as good as without, because nobody who's 6'11 and 280lbs is going to be a high flyer, but he's way above average in terms of mobility. Sweetney's way below average in those respects.

But saying I'm right that we aren't that good but you didn't think Curry was "all that" is pretty much irrelevant at this point, except as distraction from what appears to me to be the main point; we aren't that good.

Whether we agree or not on Curry doesn't make me feel any better or worse about Sweetney. Looking at him, the only thing I feel is that he needs to loose 20lbs if he wants to be more than just another guy.

The more appropriate comparison might be Elton Brand, who probably played at around 270-280 for the Bulls in his time here, and is now a completely ripped 255. The critiques of Brand back then were largely correct. Good player, but obvious flaws. Sweetney's never going to have Brand's wingspan (which is a couple inches beyond Sweets') or overall talent level, but if got down to 250-260 he'd have a chance to be a really good player

Brand was good at 275 and is outstanding at 255. If Sweetney is ok at 280 or so, if he gets to 260 he might be pretty good.


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Fine with me. Now we just need someone that can start at the 5.


I completely agree.


----------



## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Mikedc said:


> I disagree. We were a pretty good running team with him too. Not as good as without, because nobody who's 6'11 and 280lbs is going to be a high flyer, but he's way above average in terms of mobility. Sweetney's way below average in those respects.
> 
> But saying I'm right that we aren't that good but you didn't think Curry was "all that" is pretty much irrelevant at this point, except as distraction from what appears to me to be the main point; we aren't that good.
> 
> ...


Well all I know is more times than not, with Curry in the game they force fed him in the half court set. When he was not the game the offense changed, including running more. Maybe that had more to do with the fact that chandler was in the game we got more rebounds so therefore we ran more?


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> But strangely, Mike, we've never run with this group. I've never been quite sure why. Especially when we had Jay Williams, I was always begging for us to run. He might have been the fastest guy in the league with the ball running downcourt, or at least he was right up there with Kidd. We never ran, and it hasn't changed since.
> 
> It seems like we have the youth and athleticism to run. But on the whole, our finishing at the rim is attrocious. That goes for layups, dunks, and all out wimpyness. Who on our team takes it hard to the rack, on a fast break or otherwise? Not Hinrich, Gordon, or Duhon. Our two small forwards are the best we have at this. If Chandler could catch the frickin' rock, he would potentially be able to live on fast break points. Nobody his height is capable of running the floor like he can. But this has never been part of his game, and I think it's due to his hands.
> 
> And when we do get fast break opportunities, we blow them an alarming number of times. We look like we're built to run, but we're not.


With Jay, we had a guy coaching who seemed to not believe in running.

I'm not too sure what the deal is with the current Bulls. Deng and Noc do it recklessly. Our guards don't do it the way they should, but they can certainly move with the ball. Actually that's a place where we do miss Curry, because we no longer have that play where beats his guy up the court , we semi push it and throw him the quick alley oop. We didn't do it a huge amount, but the relatively quick push and feed to Curry was a part of the offense last year.

We probably should try it with Chandler a few times, even if it's less successful, because that was a play that kept guys honest. And with Tyson's speed, he should, theoretically at least, be able to pull it off if he could field the pass. All he has to do is freaking dunk it if we deliver it right.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> Well all I know is more times than not, with Curry in the game they force fed him in the half court set. When he was not the game the offense changed, including running more. Maybe that had more to do with the fact that chandler was in the game we got more rebounds so therefore we ran more?


I still don't really care to focus on rehashing Curry, but it's at least worth looking at so we can figure out what we did well last year and try and replicate it.

Statistically we defensively rebounded about the same with Curry and Chandler (from 82games) ...

On Court / Off Court
Curry.... 70.4 / 70.5 %
Chandler 69.6% / 71.5%

.... so I don't think the difference is there.

Part of it, I think, is that what we did do, sometimes in lieu of running, was set up our offense and feed Curry ver quickly. I guess that doesn't count as a pure running game, but it still comes from beating the other guys down the court/initiating our offense quickly. The Bulls, playing with Curry on the court, would pretty often set up and get him the ball quickly. He'd get in scoring position quickly. The guards would get the ball up court quick. It was an advantage we had by virtue of Curry being quicker than the guys who guarded him, and we used it.

This year, we don't have a guy with Curry's combination of speed/size and hands, but we do have Chandler's speed/size, and we'd probably do well to see how much we can get out of it.

*Actually, I think we are doing it*. If you look at 82games, there's no direct measure, but you can see what % of shots guys take that are assisted and what % guys take at different points on the shot clock.

It's not perfect, but as a general rule, if you're a big guy and you're taking an unassisted shot early in the shot clock, it's because you got an offensive rebound. If you're taking an assisted shot, it's a break or a quick setup in which you beat your guy down the court and got good position.

The first number is the % of a player's shots that come with 0-10 seconds gone by on the shot clock. The second is the % of those shots that are assisted.

04-05 Curry 35%, 63% assisted (eFG .653)
04-05 Chandler 56%, 35% assisted (eFG .540)
05-06 Chandler 52%, 65% assisted (eFG .565)

What's noticeable from this is that Chandler's higher percentage of shots total reflects the fact that he gets a lot of his points off offensive boards, but compared with last year they actually are making a real effort to get him down the court and feed him for quick points in the way they obviously did with Curry. It's also a reflection of Chandler not grabbing offensive boards the way he did last year, which would also drive down his % assisted total, but still the overall point is valid.

Chandler's not as effective as he could or probable should be with that, yet, but its encouraging that they're doing it and he certainly can get better if he works at it.


----------



## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> No, they don't.
> 
> Its just exposed more now that Curry and AD are off the team, with Othella that is. As for Songalia, I think his production had a lot to do with playing in the Sacramento offense. Even in Sacto, he was known to be a lousy rebounder and defender... he's a soft, yet "skilled", Euro big man.
> 
> ...


This off season had plenty of puzzling moves, but signing Songaila, Harrington and Malik Allen hasn't been working out great. I don't think we can blame Pax for Songaila, who everyone loved at the time. But Harrington's deal is totally out of whack with his market value. And Malik Allen is hot on Tim Thomas' heels in terms of being the team's biggest non factor. If Sweetney continues to play like he has been Othella's role on the team will be very marginal, and he's making 3.5 million dollars this year. I also never understood bringing Pargo back, but that's for another thread.

I thought Curry was pretty great in transition last year. Anyone remember that play vs. NY? He was getting up and down the court great at the weight he was at, and he has the hands to be an effective transition big. At least one person has suggested that we get out and run with Chandler this year which I really don't understand because Tyson can't catch the ball in the post, let alone on the run. That's a turnover and/or a charging foul waiting to happen. I do think with Chandler grabbing boards and throwing outlet passes we can run effectively though. Deng is very, very good in transition.


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Some Sweetney stats here, just a little bit down.
http://pistons.mostvaluablenetwork.com/general/1121-and-other-creative-post-titles/

here, toward the end
http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2005/11/20/on-tap-the-chicago-bulls/

and a Elton comparison toward the end here:
http://www.blogabull.com/story/2005/11/21/21314/334

I like the Elton comparison actually. I have not watched the Clippers this year...but Elton was just a solid, effective efficient player. Not explosive, not fancy. Sweetney is not that...but I think he will round into something close. 

Of course, as the Elton thread points out...he may be ready to take it to another level this season.


----------



## nanokooshball (Jan 22, 2005)

jbulls said:


> This off season had plenty of puzzling moves, but signing Songaila, Harrington and Malik Allen hasn't been working out great. I don't think we can blame Pax for Songaila, who everyone loved at the time. But Harrington's deal is totally out of whack with his market value. And Malik Allen is hot on Tim Thomas' heels in terms of being the team's biggest non factor. If Sweetney continues to play like he has been Othella's role on the team will be very marginal, and he's making 3.5 million dollars this year. I also never understood bringing Pargo back, but that's for another thread.


But how many teams expect their 12th through 15th players to contribute to the team? Allen is our 15th, Thomas is our 14th, Basden is our 13th, Pargo our 12th, and songaila our 11th

those players on MOST teams wouldn't even see any time on the court, but Songaila avg 15+mpg and pargo plays occasionally for medium stretches


----------



## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> But strangely, Mike, we've never run with this group. I've never been quite sure why. Especially when we had Jay Williams, I was always begging for us to run. He might have been the fastest guy in the league with the ball running downcourt, or at least he was right up there with Kidd. We never ran, and it hasn't changed since.
> 
> It seems like we have the youth and athleticism to run. But on the whole, our finishing at the rim is attrocious. That goes for layups, dunks, and all out wimpyness. Who on our team takes it hard to the rack, on a fast break or otherwise? Not Hinrich, Gordon, or Duhon. Our two small forwards are the best we have at this. If Chandler could catch the frickin' rock, he would potentially be able to live on fast break points. Nobody his height is capable of running the floor like he can. But this has never been part of his game, and I think it's due to his hands.
> 
> And when we do get fast break opportunities, we blow them an alarming number of times. We look like we're built to run, but we're not.



So so true and so so sad

I think Hinrich could be the best kept transition guard secrets in the league 

Hinrich and Deng are perfect for the break

Chandler should be and you bring up an excellent point about his hands . I'll take it one step further and say that we do not have a dominant defensive rebounder _that is capable of being a high quality outlet passer to trigger the break_ Tyson is and will continue to be a dominant rebounder but I don't see him with the smarts, vision, poise and passing capacity to be that guy that feeds the break and then is the trailer ..maybe he can be the trailer and get the occasional oop ...but he has doesn't have that kind oop style kind of finish which is a shame given his hops and his height

Sadly he just doesn't have super great hands

Sweetney on the other hand - has soft hands and has a poise and a patience about him before he makes his decisions . He looks authoritive with the ball in his hands 

I think he's more capable of being a circuit breaker for the break with Tyson boxing more then splitting and hauling azz

Maybe Sweets could be that guy and despite his size he actually does get down the court well unlike Traylor and Oliver Miller that always looked like they were doing it tough

We all know Ben has hops as does Noc and Duhon ran a bunch at Duke and knows how to run the break

We *do* have all the tools and outside of defining roles better and having a dominant boarder that can trigger the outlet pass ..there is no real reason why we shouldn't be looking to switch into this type of offense when we have the chance 

I think the reason why we haven't historically is because Floyd and Cartwright were inept and the kids were confused ..it didn't help that our roster had the collective IQ of a lead pencil

Once the overhaul happened we were starting 3 rooks and had 2 core guys that basically had to be started over with at the start of every season

When Skiles first got here he was the first to admit that he was looking for simplicity in his play sets ..nothing fancy so no one got confused . Basic pick and roll offense and try and build from there. He basically wanted it dumbed down

We were successful doing this and I think the guys have had mistake free basketball drilled into them over and over - and until they get the basics down of something that resembles an NBA offense then fastbreaking transition basketball is something that can come with maturity and confidence 

With transition offense comes transition defense ..sometimes you may think if you have the guns playing a more frenetic uptempo style suits ...but where the team are basically rookies and 2nd year players that are playing the bulk of the minutes ..still trying to find their way into the NBA ( remember Jess Kersey trying to punk Kirk last year ? ) it probably doesn't behoove a team with this profile to be playing to what they think their strengths are. 

Because ..they get held on to or nudged on the break and don't get the calls ..turn it over ..and give the other team easier trans offensive opportunity right back

Even though we do have the guns and will eventually run more of it ..I think Skiles is right to put some brakes on the break and try and enforce some offensive discipline until this team matures more..grows more in confidence and gets greater respect it needs to run a bunch of this to win games and not just make the highlight reels

But I feel all your frustration and pain


----------



## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

jbulls said:


> But Harrington's deal is totally out of whack with his market value.


We paid up on Othella so he would take a 1-year offer, thereby preserving cap space.


----------

