# Joel Freeland ? MIA



## gogreen (May 24, 2006)

I heard a Blazer scout talk about summer league last week. He stated that P Koponen and McBob were the only two Blazers that were signed and ready for Summer ball. I haven't heard a thing about Freeland and now that statement. 

Maybe they have written him off ? Interesting of our 4 late first round picks that we have bought ( Sergio, Rudy, Freeland, Kop ) none have panned out. I love the thought of Rudy as much as the next guy, but so far our scouting department hasn't found that diamond in the rough as of yet. 

Just thinking out loud. Draftexpress' new mock has us taking Batum @ 33. I think this year is a very good year for foreign centers' and i hope we grab at least one to stash in Europe and to play in LVSM.

Wheres' Joel ?


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## HispanicCausinPanic (Jul 2, 2005)

Who cares! He was never going to make our club anyway!


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

HispanicCausinPanic said:


> Who cares! He was never going to make our club anyway!


I wonder if Paul Allen can shrug off the $3M that easily. (Actually, probably.) But he did always seem whimsical. What Euro team does he (in theory) play for, again?


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

Rudy hasn't panned out? what does that mean exactly? He's supposed to be signing after July 1st, is considered to be possibly the best international prospect not already playing in the NBA, and when you look at Kopo and Freeland's draft positions at 30 I'm not sure you can expect much anyway.

As for Joel Freeland, I do remember hearing sporadic reports during the season that he was getting only spot minutes on his club, and was doing "ok" ... ie have fun playing in Europe for the next 10 years.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

gogreen said:


> Just thinking out loud. Draftexpress' new mock has us taking Batum @ 33. I think this year is a very good year for foreign centers' and i hope we grab at least one to stash in Europe and to play in LVSM.


I saw that - that would be pretty sweet - for us, and potentially for him too, if it enabled him to get a bigger contract sooner than if he was a first-rounder. I presume they dropped him so far because of the heart thing. Also interesting that they have Bill Walker going ahead of him, when he has actual, tangible injuries to his knees.

Trouble is, EVERYBODY wants to draft foreign in the second round.


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## gogreen (May 24, 2006)

Rudy hasn't panned out?

Although unfair, he hasn't done squat. What i meant was i'm really starting to doubt this scouting staff. Rudy i hope pans out because i love the guy, wish him well. But Sergio was a complete waste of a pick. He was/ is NEVER gonna be a Nate type player. He needs to be traded like yesterday. I wonder if Rudy will be a Nate guy ?

That was my point.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

gogreen said:


> Although unfair, he hasn't done squat. What i meant was i'm really starting to doubt this scouting staff.


How about you let him play in the NBA first before you make your decision.



> But Sergio was a complete waste of a pick. He was/ is NEVER gonna be a Nate type player.


Nobody thought that in his rookie year. Last year was a bit of a regression. But you don't necessarily take the player to be the coach's pet. Let the coach adapt.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

gogreen said:


> Rudy hasn't panned out?
> 
> Although unfair, he hasn't done squat.


He has "done squat" wherever he's played. If you mean he hasn't "done squat" in the NBA, you are correct - only because he hasn't played a minute of NBA ball. By that logic, Greg Oden hasn't panned out and you should be blasting our "scouting department" over that pick as well.

Seriously, how about we watch Rudy play at least *ONE* NBA game before we call him a total bust?

BNM


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

meru said:


> I wonder if Paul Allen can shrug off the $3M that easily.


What $3M? We didn't buy the pick that was used on Freeland. That pick (#30, originally owned by Detroit) was part of the #3 for #6 swap with Utah that had us pass on Chris Paul and Deron Williams to take Martell Webster. If I was Paul Allen, I think I'd find that harder to shrug off than $3M spent on a draft pick that may never see NBA action.

BNM


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## dkap (May 13, 2003)

I think what he meant is that the buying of late round Euro picks hasn't produced much yet. A bit unfair to include Rudy in that, but he arguably fits the bill at this point. Although, was it Khryapa or Monia's pick that we bought? Aldridge materialized out of that deal, so there could be a significant example there.

Dan


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## gogreen (May 24, 2006)

dkap said:


> I think what he meant is that the buying of late round Euro picks hasn't produced much yet. A bit unfair to include Rudy in that, but he arguably fits the bill at this point. Although, was it Khryapa or Monia's pick that we bought? Aldridge materialized out of that deal, so there could be a significant example there.
> 
> Dan


Yes, this is what i meant. 

As far as Rudy v Oden, neither has done nothing in the league. But, Nate will change his style or do whatever it takes to make Greg succeed. Rudy, sorry, he is gonna have to play the way Nate wants him or else he goes the way of Sergio. So, to answer your question. Oden has proved he is a once in a decade player. Rudy has proved to be a great Euro player who best case scenario will be 6th man behind Roy.

Wanna compare Duncan to Manu ?


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

gogreen said:


> Yes, this is what i meant.
> 
> As far as Rudy v Oden, neither has done nothing in the league. But, Nate will change his style or do whatever it takes to make Greg succeed. Rudy, sorry, he is gonna have to play the way Nate wants him or else he goes the way of Sergio. So, to answer your question. Oden has proved he is a once in a decade player. Rudy has proved to be a great Euro player who best case scenario will be 6th man behind Roy.
> 
> Wanna compare Duncan to Manu ?


I'm trying to figure out what you're talking about here. In your first post you seem to be suggesting that our scouts are doing a poor job of identifying talent, then you go on to say Oden hasn't proved anything, and you follow that up by saying that he *has* proved to be a once in a decade player, and finally you throw out some oblique reference to manu and Timmy D -- if Rudy turns out to be a manu type, sixth man of the year candidate, as a 24th pick in the first round then KP and his scouts are goddamned geniuses. 

Lastly, comparing Rudy and Sergio is so wacky I don't even know where to begin; Rudy is a proven European talent who fell into the late first round because there were doubts that an NBA team could actually get him to come over here, because he's that good and capable of making far more money than his rookie scale deal will allow. On the other hand Sergio has never been anything more than a marginal player in Europe who had/has tremendous upside if he could learn to shoot and/or defend -- his late first round placement was because he was such a question mark in terms of NBA readiness.

Gogreen, I have to ask, what do think the odds of great success in the NBA are for late first round picks? Just look at the history of most teams picking in the 20-30 range in the last 10 years and you will find far more busts than successes (and by successes I mean rotation or starting quality players).


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## HispanicCausinPanic (Jul 2, 2005)

When you take a chance on unproven foreign players with late 1st or 2nd round picks it's just that......a chance. If it pans out good, if not...oh well. Of course a lottery pick is another thing.


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## dwood615 (Jul 20, 2004)

and form what i heard peterri is pretty good and they might be bringing him over this year if we cant get a point man in the draft


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## Hector (Nov 15, 2004)

Maybe this is how to say it. Pritchard's reputation is based upon making many, many trades each draft day. The rest of the year he says, I like the team the way it is and I won't make changes. Most of his many trades each draft day are to get 2nd round picks or very late 1st round picks. These have not produced anything because he has been reluctant to let them onto the team, in order to keep the team the way it is. The exception will hopefully be Fernandez. Nothing is expected of Koponen and Rodriguez, and even less of all the picks who will never play.

To put a wooden stake into the heart of Pritchard's strategey of multitudinous trades, now apparently Freeland won't even be in the Summer League. So the point is, let's stop praising Pritchard for making 6 trades one draft day and 18 on another, and just enjoy our lottery luck in getting Oden, which had nothing to do with any General Manager talent.


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## #10 (Jul 23, 2004)

Hector said:


> Maybe this is how to say it. Pritchard's reputation is based upon making many, many trades each draft day. The rest of the year he says, I like the team the way it is and I won't make changes. Most of his many trades each draft day are to get 2nd round picks or very late 1st round picks. These have not produced anything because he has been reluctant to let them onto the team, in order to keep the team the way it is. The exception will hopefully be Fernandez. Nothing is expected of Koponen and Rodriguez, and even less of all the picks who will never play.
> 
> To put a wooden stake into the heart of Pritchard's strategey of multitudinous trades, now apparently Freeland won't even be in the Summer League. So the point is, let's stop praising Pritchard for making 6 trades one draft day and 18 on another, and just enjoy our lottery luck in getting Oden, which had nothing to do with any General Manager talent.


Or lets acknowledge the fact that the end of the draft might as well be a lottery, almost none of the players turn into something useful. That said, there still is talent to be found, so why not take a chance on a player, knowing he won't use up a roster space? Luis Scola, for example eventually turned into an asset for the Spurs. Maybe Freeland or Kopo will be the same.


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## gogreen (May 24, 2006)

nikolokolus said:


> I'm trying to figure out what you're talking about here. In your first post you seem to be suggesting that our scouts are doing a poor job of identifying talent, then you go on to say Oden hasn't proved anything, and you follow that up by saying that he *has* proved to be a once in a decade player, and finally you throw out some oblique reference to manu and Timmy D -- if Rudy turns out to be a manu type, sixth man of the year candidate, as a 24th pick in the first round then KP and his scouts are goddamned geniuses.
> 
> Ok, sorry. I've been watching SPAIN stick it ITALY at Euro 2008.
> 
> ...


Obviously a latter pick as opposed to a lottery pick will have a higher percentage to fail. But look at Detriot - Stuckey- Prince - Maixel. These guys were late picks by one team. Detroit, San Antonio off the top of my head have had good success drafting late. McBob, Green last year, i'm not seeing either be a rotation player. I'm looking at our drating over the years and it has been poor. Allen has shelled out a lot of cash and hasn't got any return on all these fliers were taking. Roy and LMA were solid picks, Lottery picks. Doesn't matter if you agree that comparing Sergio to Rudy is fair. At the end of the day, what will they have done. The Russian boys are a great example, # 22, 23 ? I guess if you draft ten players and one pans out, great. I could care less about the money. It's not my money. I just wish we drafted better. We have Three true point guards now. Blake, Sergio, Kop and what is our supposed weakness ??? A point guard. that is what all these mock drafts are saying. How many more PGs' will we draft to get it right?


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## HispanicCausinPanic (Jul 2, 2005)

Back in the day, the 'Zers made a killing with late picks. Don't remember the exacts, but weren't TP, Kersey and Cliffy late pix!?


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## gogreen (May 24, 2006)

Hector said:


> Maybe this is how to say it. Pritchard's reputation is based upon making many, many trades each draft day. The rest of the year he says, I like the team the way it is and I won't make changes. Most of his many trades each draft day are to get 2nd round picks or very late 1st round picks. These have not produced anything because he has been reluctant to let them onto the team, in order to keep the team the way it is. The exception will hopefully be Fernandez. Nothing is expected of Koponen and Rodriguez, and even less of all the picks who will never play.
> 
> To put a wooden stake into the heart of Pritchard's strategey of multitudinous trades, now apparently Freeland won't even be in the Summer League. So the point is, let's stop praising Pritchard for making 6 trades one draft day and 18 on another, and just enjoy our lottery luck in getting Oden, which had nothing to do with any General Manager talent.


Thank you Hector, you nailed it. That was my point. KP is being praised as the next Jerry West but he does have some uglies in the closet. Having said that, i LOVE the way he prepares for the draft and his enthusiasim towards draft day. I guess i'm thinking of Nash to much and his blunder Webster/ Paul- Williams.

Come Thursday i want a perimeter defender and a upgrade of sorts at PG. These are the things NATE said they needed to do in the off- season. This is what i saw last year. Poor perimeter defense and average PG play in the first 3 Qs'. I want Gerald Wallace. I want Russel Westbrook. If these guys can't shot a lick doesn't matter. Our defense was horrible last year. How many easy lay ups did we give up last year ?

KP has a lot of chips to play with this year. Let's see if he can address the things HE SAID that needed to be fixed.

All everyone is saying about Boston this year is how well their defense was.I think there have been rumors of discord between KP and Nate ? My guess is that Nate would like to see a few more guys that can play D and less guys who can light up Youtube. Sergio = Youtube Star. Rudy = ??????. Damien Wilkins = FA rotation player, hmmmmm.


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

gogreen said:


> Obviously a latter pick as opposed to a lottery pick will have a higher percentage to fail. *But look at Detriot - Stuckey- Prince - Maixel. These guys were late picks by one team. Detroit, San Antonio off the top of my head have had good success drafting late.* McBob, Green last year, i'm not seeing either be a rotation player. I'm looking at our drating over the years and it has been poor.


Your sample size is pretty slim; yes Detroit and San Antonio have had some good success with late first rounders, but the vast majority never pan out, and second round picks are even more dicey. And I would be reticent to lump the Whittsitt and Nash drafting regimes with Pritchard and his staff; they've shown incredible creatitivity at deal making and having an eye for talent so far (landing the number one pick not withstanding)



> Allen has shelled out a lot of cash and hasn't got any return on all these fliers were taking. Roy and LMA were *solid picks*, Lottery picks.


Solid picks? Rookie of the year, second year all-star do everything guard, and an 18 and 8 power-forward with range and a rapidly developing inside game that's just "solid"? Wow talk about an understatement! LaMarcus and Brandon Roy could arguably be the first and second best talents from the 06 draft.



> Doesn't matter if you agree that comparing Sergio to Rudy is fair. At the end of the day, what will they have done. The Russian boys are a great example, # 22, 23 ? I guess if you draft ten players and one pans out, great. I could care less about the money. It's not my money. I just wish we drafted better.


I have no idea what you're talking about here. Monia and Khryapa? Again nothing to do with Pritchard and his staff.



> We have Three true point guards now. Blake, Sergio, Kop and what is our supposed weakness ??? A point guard. that is what all these mock drafts are saying. How many more PGs' will we draft to get it right?


Well we didn't draft Steve Blake, Koponen may or may not be joining us at the conclusion of summer league, and Sergio was always going to be an iffy developmental project. As for drafting another PG, I agree that adding another draft pick PG is a gamble, but with guys like Kirk Hinrich, Mo Williams, Ben Gordon, et. al. *possibly* being on the market this summer KP has options outside of just relying on the draft.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

gogreen said:


> Obviously a latter pick as opposed to a lottery pick will have a higher percentage to fail. But look at Detriot - Stuckey- Prince - Maixel. These guys were late picks by one team.


And look at Darko, who Detroit picked at #2. 
Getting lucky a few times in the lottery (game of chance) doesn't make up for making bad decisions in the lottery (top 14 picks). 

barfo


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

gogreen said:


> The Russian boys are a great example, # 22, 23 ? I guess if you draft ten players and one pans out, great. I could care less about the money. It's not my money. I just wish we drafted better.


I guess Travis Outlaw (drafted #23) and Zach Randolph (drafted #18) don't count?

barfo


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## SodaPopinski (Aug 10, 2004)

Honestly ... who freakin' cares? It's Joel Freeland.

-Pop


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## gogreen (May 24, 2006)

barfo said:


> I guess Travis Outlaw (drafted #23) and Zach Randolph (drafted #18) don't count?
> 
> barfo


Exactly, what do you plan on winning with these two. TO doesn't want to start and is afraid to start. Zach, ok do you really wanna go there ? Poison is the first word I come up when I think of Zach.

Roy and LMA are beyond solid picks, I can't praise them enough. 

I have to add the Whittsit, Nash years because these players are still on the roster. 

I don't have the time to sit down and figure out which GM actually can back up his reputation with actuall facts. Off the top of my head it seems we have had more draft picks than most teams in the league because of Allens' money and we have had little return. Hey, maybe I am seeing things wrong. I really do like KP, I wouldn't want another GM. 

Can't we agree that our GM and Head Coach have different views on what type of basketball team we should have. Therefore we are wasting draft picks, etc because of this ?

Just an observation, I wish i had more time to talk B-Ball.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Joel Freeland looks like being a BAD pick. I thought we bought the pick specially, but if we had it anyway, then maybe he was like Travis Knight - taken by the Bulls with the last pick of the first and then not even signed, because it was a way for Jerry Krause to save money.

I looked at the second round that year, and there are a couple of good players we could have had instead:

36. Minnesota Craig "The Rhino" Smith

42. Cleveland Daniel "Booby" Gibson

47. Utah Paul Milsap

49. Denver Leon "game 2 hero" Powe
50. Charlotte Ryan Hollins


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## drexlersdad (Jun 3, 2006)

gogreen, please, pretty ****ing please, would you KINDLY tell me, what is wrong with taking fliers on euros with picks that were gotten with only cash?

we gave up ZERO assets to obtain them. If paul allen wants to spend his money on antique staplers, awesome. maybe he collects vintage hair. 

i do know that he enjoys spending his money on draft picks, and with our roster being so damn full, stashing a player overseas for 5 or 6 years is really a long term investment.

so far we have two of kp's picks over here, and possibly koponen as well. 75% is pretty good if you ask me.

like it or not, sergio is an asset, and would be enticing filler in any trade to any team. if koponen comes over and proves he can play a few minutes, the same will be said of him. i am more than happy that kp drafted them, is there some OTHER forign player kp SHOULD have drafted?

freeland might have been a bad pick, but only time will tell if paul allen gets a return on that investment.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

gogreen said:


> Exactly, what do you plan on winning with these two. TO doesn't want to start and is afraid to start. Zach, ok do you really wanna go there ? Poison is the first word I come up when I think of Zach.
> 
> Roy and LMA are beyond solid picks, I can't praise them enough.


Travis and Zach turned out to be solid picks as well. If you don't like Zach, just think of that pick as Channing Frye. Not a bad pick for #18, since he actually was picked #8.

And Travis was a great pickup at #23. You can't expect to get superstars at the end of the first round. Well, ok, I guess you can, but statistically one shouldn't expect that.

barfo


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## For Three! Rip City! (Nov 11, 2003)

I wouldn't write off Freeland just yet. I thought he looked like a solid prospect in last year's Summer league. I think people might be underrating him a bit (and overrating McRoberts to be honest). Time will sort things out.


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## gogreen (May 24, 2006)

DrexDad, Look above, i don't care about what Paul Allen pays for picks, not my point.

I want to see this scouting staff do something when they don't have the # 1, 2nd or 7th pick in the draft. Can they use all these chips and pull a veteran like they said they would or draft another Telfair, our last #13 pick. That was kinda my point in the first place.

I know Nash Picked Telfair, KP turned it into Roy. Let's see what KP can do with 13.

Just sayin


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

gogreen said:


> DrexDad, Look above, i don't care about what Paul Allen pays for picks, not my point.
> 
> I want to see this scouting staff do something when they don't have the # 1, *2nd or 7th pick* in the draft. Can they use all these chips and pull a veteran like they said they would or draft another Telfair, our last #13 pick. That was kinda my point in the first place.
> 
> ...


Let me put this in perspective, KP turned the 4th overall pick that year into the 2nd and the 7th*, so yes he knows how to package pieces together in trades to go out and get other high value assets ... just relax and let the draft play itself out and then worry about analyzing and picking everything apart.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

gogreen said:


> I want to see this scouting staff do something when they don't have the # 1, 2nd or 7th pick in the draft. Can they use all these chips and pull a veteran like they said they would or draft another Telfair, our last #13 pick. That was kinda my point in the first place.
> 
> I know Nash Picked Telfair, KP turned it into Roy. Let's see what KP can do with 13.


Good lord, you're all over the map, and most of what you say is just flat out factually inaccurate (aka WRONG). How long have you been following the Blazers? Do you even remeber the 2006 draft? It sure seems like you don't. You start off by criticizing Pritchard for "wasting" late first round picks on unproven Euros, now your (inaccurately) questioning his lottery selections. 

Here's few facts:

The last time Portland had the 2nd pick in the NBA draft was 1984. They took a guy named Sam Bowie (I suppose now you're going to try to blame that on KP, too).

Portland had the 4th pick in the 2006 draft. Through a series of trades, Pritchard turned that 4th pick into LaMarcus Aldridge and Brandon Roy, arguably the two best players from that draft. Pretty good for starting the day with the 4th pick. Just to put it in perspective, Charlotte had the 3rd pick and selected Adam Morrison, and Atlanta had the 5th pick and selected Shelden Williams. All-in-all, I'd say Pritchard did pretty darn good with that 4th pick.

The ONLY questionable picks I've seen Pritchard make was picking Freeland (at 30) and James White (at 31 and then traded) over Paul Millsap (i wanted Millsap at 30 or 31 before the draft). Neither McRoberts nor Taurean Green may ever be superstars, but they were SECOND ROUND PICKS THAT MADE THE ROSTER OF AN NBA TEAM AS ROOKIES. That makes them better than most typical 2nd round picks and MUCH better than: Nedzad Sinanovic, Jason Jennings, Federico Kammerichs and Roberto Bergersen - all guys who have yet to see, and will likely never see, a second of NBA action that were picked in the 2nd round by Nash and Whitsitt. Still think Pritchard is doing a poor job with his late picks?

Do you have absolutely no recollection of how painfully BAD John Nash was at drafting? In two short years, Pritchard has built this team, almost entirely through the draft and draft day trades, from the ashes of the wreckage Nash created. To criticize Pritchard's draft day record just boggles my mind. My son has two Blazer team posters hanging on the wall above his bed. One, pre-Prichard from the end of the 2005-06 season. The other from the end of the 2007-08 season. It's amazing the difference two years made. Every night when I tuck my son in bed, I look at those two posters and I say a little prayer of thanks for Kevin Pritchard.

BNM


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Hector said:


> Maybe this is how to say it. Pritchard's reputation is based upon making many, many trades each draft day. The rest of the year he says, I like the team the way it is and I won't make changes. Most of his many trades each draft day are to get 2nd round picks or very late 1st round picks.


Most of his draft day trades are to get very late 1st round or 2nd round picks? It took three draft day trades (with Boston, Chicago and Minnesota) in 2006 to get LaMarcus Aldridge and Brandon Roy, selected 2nd and 7th - hardly late first round or second round picks. With those three trades, he turned the 4th pick, plus garbage, into the two best players in that draft. Yes, he also made some trades for later picks as well, but I'd hardly agree that "Most of his many trades each draft day are to get 2nd round picks or very late 1st round picks".



Hector said:


> To put a wooden stake into the heart of Pritchard's strategey of multitudinous trades, now apparently Freeland won't even be in the Summer League. So the point is, let's stop praising Pritchard for making 6 trades one draft day and 18 on another, and just enjoy our lottery luck in getting Oden, which had nothing to do with any General Manager talent.


Excuse me, you can't be serious. Wooden stake??? Since you seem to have a faulty memory, let me help you remember the FACTS. Yes, Pritchard made six trades on draft day 2006, but NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH JOEL FREELAND. As I already stated above, the 30th pick that was used on Freeland was the result of Nash trading down in 2005 with Utah to pass on Williams and Paul and take Martell Webster at 6th. The 30th pick, originally owned by Detroit, was part of that 2005 draft day trade made by John Nash. It was NOT a Kevin Pritchard trade.

Yes, getting Oden was lucky, but he hasn't played a second of NBA ball yet. So, we have yet to realize the benefit of that luck. And still the team has improved from 21 wins to 41 wins in the two years Kevin Pritchard has been GM. That improvement is a DIRECT result of his many draft day trades. I'd say he's doing a damn fine job and I will continue to praise his general manager talent.

BNM


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## Hector (Nov 15, 2004)

Boob-No-More said:


> Neither McRoberts nor Taurean Green may ever be superstars, but they were SECOND ROUND PICKS THAT MADE THE ROSTER OF AN NBA TEAM AS ROOKIES. That makes them better than most typical 2nd round picks and MUCH better than: Nedzad Sinanovic, Jason Jennings, Federico Kammerichs and Roberto Bergersen - all guys who have yet to see, and will likely never see, a second of NBA action that were picked in the 2nd round by Nash and Whitsitt. Still think Pritchard is doing a poor job with his late picks?


Pritchard made the bonehead mistake of allowing Green and McRoberts onto the roster in order to make his drafting them look good. He could have put Koponen and Freeland in their place. So you use that to praise him? You should use that to criticize him!! They don't belong in the NBA!! That makes him look bad, not good!! They are no beter than Sinanovic, Jennings, Kammerichs, or Bergersen.

I believe it was said somewhere that Pritchard had something to do with Shawn Kemp coming to the Blazers. Boob, you will notice that less than 7 years separated their Orlando Magic tenures. Kemp's Magic stay was magical compared to Pritchard's, who lasted 1 day there, as he did with so many teams. But the linkage between a truly lousy player like Pritchard and Shawn Kemp isn't what interests me as much as it does you. I offer this to you for grist in your dogpan.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Hector said:


> Pritchard made the bonehead mistake of allowing Green and McRoberts onto the roster in order to make his drafting them look good. He could have put Koponen and Freeland in their place. So you use that to praise him? You should use that to criticize him!! They don't belong in the NBA!! That makes him look bad, not good!! They are no beter than Sinanovic, Jennings, Kammerichs, or Bergersen.[/quote}
> 
> Right.... and he also bribed Denver to keep Green on their NBA roster so it would make him look good. Yeah, that's the ticket.
> 
> ...


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## PorterIn2004 (Jan 1, 2003)

Wow, Hector. Why not tell us how you really feel, rather than sugar-coating it like that? 

You may be right about Green and McRoberts. I'm betting they stick for at least a few years, though, whether with the Blazers or with other teams (at least in Green's case, obviously). Green in particular seemed worth taking a shot on, to me, given that at least two of his teammates declared him the have been the best player on that team that won two NCAA championships.

As for McRoberts, most all of the mock drafts had him going much sooner than he did. You may say there's a reason he fell but there's also a reason he was up there to begin with. McRoberts seems similar to Rodriguez to me. Both need to work on their defense and both need a consistent shot. The hustle part of defense may be hard to teach but McRoberts at least has that already, and all sorts of players have improved their shot over time. Back to the parallel, though, it seems to me both Rodriguez and McRoberts are pretty gifted passers. Rodriguez might stand out more but, for a "big", McRoberts is remarkable.

That said, I totally get why McMillan hardly played them -- they've got work to do, both of them. However, if/when they do that work, they both have the potential to be significant contributors to an NBA team at some point, and that, I think, is more than can be said of Sinanovic et al.


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

Hector said:


> Pritchard made the bonehead mistake of allowing Green and McRoberts onto the roster in order to make his drafting them look good. He could have put Koponen and Freeland in their place. So you use that to praise him? You should use that to criticize him!! They don't belong in the NBA!! That makes him look bad, not good!! They are no beter than Sinanovic, Jennings, Kammerichs, or Bergersen.


You must be dipping into gogreen's stash of kind bud. 
McRoberts was 2005 high school player of the year, and at one point in his college career was thought to be a lottery pick, he underperformed and as a result he slipped into the second round and KP is out 400K a year for the trouble, Taureen Green was a proven winner in college on a repeat national championship team, and he also puts the Blazers out about 400K a year (less when you factor in the Von Wafer trade) by giving him a roster spot. Big ****ing deal if they don't stick in the NBA, 30% of second rounders never play a minute in the NBA and 68% are out of the league in five years (and just for you I actually have a source to back up my claims: http://www.draftexpress.com/article...ht-Success-Let-History-Guide--Part-Two--2937/ ).



> I believe it was said somewhere that Pritchard had something to do with Shawn Kemp coming to the Blazers. Boob, you will notice that less than 7 years separated their Orlando Magic tenures. Kemp's Magic stay was magical compared to Pritchard's, who lasted 1 day there, as he did with so many teams. But the linkage between a truly lousy player like Pritchard and Shawn Kemp isn't what interests me as much as it does you. I offer this to you for grist in your dogpan.


Boy that sure would be a neat trick considering Shawn Kemp was traded to the Blazers in the 1999-2000 Season when Bob Whitsitt was GM and KP was at the time Coach and GM of the Kansas City Knights of the ABA (once again sources: http://www.kusports.com/basketball/nextcoach/pritchard.html )


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## hasoos (Jan 3, 2003)

You know I keep hearing people say Petteri Kopponen is good, and expecting him to step up and take minutes this year. If the guy is so good, then why isn't he playing in a major league somewhere. It doesn't add up to me.


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

hasoos said:


> You know I keep hearing people say Petteri Kopponen is good, and expecting him to step up and take minutes this year. If the guy is so good, then why isn't he playing in a major league somewhere. It doesn't add up to me.


Part of it is that Fins have an obligatory military commitment (kind of like Israel), and he actually ended up serving that commitment last year in addition to playing in his home country's pro league ... that probably isn't the whole reason, but it's something to consider.


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## GOD (Jun 22, 2003)

hasoos said:


> You know I keep hearing people say Petteri Kopponen is good, and expecting him to step up and take minutes this year. If the guy is so good, then why isn't he playing in a major league somewhere. It doesn't add up to me.


Well, he has been offered several large contracts by several big Euro teams according to courtside. So he is trying to get onto the Blazers now, otherwise he will sign a multi-year deal with a Spanish, French or Italian team. He was in Finland because that is where he grew up and had to get known before making the other rosters, and also he was in the Military. 

I am not saying he is good or bad, I just don't know, but I don't think that we can discount him because he only played in his home country as a youngster. 

I really wish that i have some game video of Kop so I could make some intelligent scouting on my own, but alas, no video. But I have been speaking throughout this year with 2 finish people who have been posting both here and in another forum about Kop's progress, and it sure does sound like he is an interesting prospect. But I won't be able to make up my own mind till summer league. Last summer, Kop played mostly SG, which is not his position, and did not fair too well. I hope that he gets a shot at the PG spot, and succeeds. Only time will tell.


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## gogreen (May 24, 2006)

Boob-No-More said:


> Good lord, you're all over the map, and most of what you say is just flat out factually inaccurate (aka WRONG). How long have you been following the Blazers? Do you even remeber the 2006 draft? It sure seems like you don't. You start off by criticizing Pritchard for "wasting" late first round picks on unproven Euros, now your (inaccurately) questioning his lottery selections.
> 
> Here's few facts:
> 
> ...


BMN-

Please, before you lose it. Look over at what I have said about KP. I have said I don't want another GM nor am I saying his draft day deals have been bad.

Follow me here, what I am saying is that NO team has had more draft picks and support from an Owner than KP has. What bothers me is that KP AND his staff ( Scouting Dept ) have done nothing with these multiple picks. As an example, Kop, Serg, Freeland, McBob, Green and I will include Rudy because of how i percieve how Nate has treated players who don't play D. Before you go off, I will wait and see if Rudy can play D and be able to convince Nate he deserves minutes. As a side note, example, this is why I think Jack gets the PT that he does is because he does " Try " and play D. I love the Zach deal. But, think about it. Without a Wealthy owner to write a check for 30M to write off Francis that deal doesn't get done. Agreed ?

Back to our evaluation and drafting I am very curious to see who he drafts and how they turn out. Let's see what he can do without PA help in drafting a player NOT in the top six. He nailed the 06 draft with the #2 and # 7 picks. But, without PA 1M we maybe have Randy Foye. I will give him the benefit and say he would have drafted Gay instead of Foye................Is that OK ?

My other point was that I think Nate wants players who can play D and fit his style. I think KP so far haven't drafted a Nate type player ( Once again before you freak out, excluding Roy and LMA ). If Oden is the savior on D that he has shown in college then obviously it will help our overall team D.

You're right, I am all over the place. I think you're problem is, is that you see the drafting of the big Three as some great accomplishment by KP when you or I probably could have made those picks. My point is we are wasting a lot of assets with late first early second round picks and have nothing close to a rotation player.


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

gogreen said:


> You're right, I am all over the place. *I think you're problem is, is that you see the drafting of the big Three as some great accomplishment by KP when you or I probably could have made those picks*. My point is *we are wasting a lot of assets with late first early second round picks and have nothing close to a rotation player.*


I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

What Assets are we wasting? A few million of Paul Allen's Billions? For crissakes!

Follow closely: *LATE FIRST, AND EARLY SECOND ROUND PICKS ARE GAMBLES AND EXPECTING A ROTATION PLAYER IS NOT BACKED UP BY THE HISTORY OF THE DRAFT.* Plus you can't divide the success KP and his staff have had in the acquisition of lottery picks from the hit and miss success they've had in the late first round and second round, the two elements of the draft are not divisible, they go together to define the success of a GM's ability to draft -- It's easy enough to say, but I highly doubt that you could have pulled off the Roy and LMA picks, these were not universal, slam dunk draft choices.

Secondly, you realistically need to give a draft pick 3 or so years before you can start to use the "B" word. Declaring the Koponen, Sergio, Freeland, and Fernandez picks as "bad" when only one of those three have been brought over from Europe so far is grossly premature and your expectations are completely unrealistic, 1 and 2 years removed from their respective drafts. The same applies to Taurean Green and Josh McRoberts who might still develop into players ... or not, but if so that would pretty much be par for the course in the NBA.


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> Seriously, how about we watch Rudy play at least *ONE* NBA game before we call him a total bust?
> 
> BNM


Nope.

At this point, he should have been the best player in the spanish league or something like that....

oh wait.


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## Hector (Nov 15, 2004)

Hector said:


> Pritchard made the bonehead mistake of allowing Green and McRoberts onto the roster in order to make his drafting them look good. He could have put Koponen and Freeland in their place.





nikolokolus said:


> McRoberts was 2005 high school player of the year, and at one point in his college career was thought to be a lottery pick, he underperformed and as a result he slipped into the second round and KP is out 400K a year for the trouble, Taureen Green was a proven winner in college on a repeat national championship team, and he also puts the Blazers out about 400K a year (less when you factor in the Von Wafer trade) by giving him a roster spot. Big ****ing deal if they don't stick in the NBA, 30% of second rounders never play a minute in the NBA and 68% are out of the league in five years...


Irrelevant failed high school and college expectations aside, both proved last year that they aren't worth our roster spots. Meanwhile, Koponen and Freeland withered on the vine in Europe. If Pritchard had given them the spots, they couldn't have done any worse than Green and McRoberts, and I think Koponen is a keeper. What was wasted was a year of development on Green instead of Koponen, not $400K.


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## Hector (Nov 15, 2004)

Hector said:


> I believe it was said somewhere that Pritchard had something to do with Shawn Kemp coming to the Blazers. Boob, you will notice that less than 7 years separated their Orlando Magic tenures...I offer this to you for grist in your dogpan.





nikolokolus said:


> Boy that sure would be a neat trick considering Shawn Kemp was traded to the Blazers in the 1999-2000 Season when Bob Whitsitt was GM and KP was at the time Coach and GM of the Kansas City Knights of the ABA


Pritchard was on the Magic from 11/1/95 to 11/2/95. Kemp was there beginning 9/5/02. I was riling up Boob by connecting his favorite nemesis with his favorite superhero, but he knew I was pushing his buttons and didn't bite. You did. We old guys play by different rules than you young guys.


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

Hector said:


> Irrelevant failed high school and college expectations aside, both proved last year that they aren't worth our roster spots. Meanwhile, Koponen and Freeland withered on the vine in Europe. If Pritchard had given them the spots, they couldn't have done any worse than Green and McRoberts, and I think Koponen is a keeper. What was wasted was a year of development on Green instead of Koponen, not $400K.


Maybe you don't understand why GMs draft players from Europe? Typically you do it so they can play overseas for a few years, matriculate, and if they show enough growth you then bring them over. And saying that either Kopo or Freeland deserved roster spots doesn't seem to be backed up by their performance in summer league. Besides Koponen had his obligatory military service to get out of the way this past year; kind of hard to shuttle back and forth between Portland and Helsinki for reveille.


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

Hector said:


> Pritchard was on the Magic from 11/1/95 to 11/2/95. Kemp was there beginning 9/5/02. I was riling up Boob by connecting his favorite nemesis with his favorite superhero, but *he knew I was pushing his buttons and didn't bite*. You did. We old guys play by different rules than you young guys.


Well I guess when you don't have the facts or anything intelligent to say that's a good fallback.


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## PapaG (Oct 4, 2004)

Hector said:


> Maybe this is how to say it. Pritchard's reputation is based upon making many, many trades each draft day. The rest of the year he says, I like the team the way it is and I won't make changes. *Most of his many trades each draft day are to get 2nd round picks or very late 1st round picks.* These have not produced anything because he has been reluctant to let them onto the team, in order to keep the team the way it is. The exception will hopefully be Fernandez. Nothing is expected of Koponen and Rodriguez, and even less of all the picks who will never play.


Well, that's simply not true if you consider he has managed two drafts and ended up with LMA, Roy, and Greg Oden with two lottery picks to begin with, along with dumping contracts and gaining cap exceptions for these "late picks" such as Fernandez.

EDIT - just read the rest of the thread. Obviously the intent was to start a flame war. Great job, mods.


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## HurraKane212 (Aug 2, 2007)

nm


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

HurraKane212 said:


> A little OT but...
> 
> why is it that some people think that advanced age exempts them from things like courtesy and manners and logical dialogue? There is a guy at my work who freaked out when I told him to be more polite because he's "37 years old and I shouldn't come up to him like that."
> 
> ...


How do you know you were smarter than them? Maybe you were deluded then and are still deluded now. Just because you think you are smarter than everyone else doesn't mean you are. And doesn't _every_ kid think he's smarter than the adults? 

barfo


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## HurraKane212 (Aug 2, 2007)

nm


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## Hector (Nov 15, 2004)

Boob-No-More said:


> Most of his draft day trades are to get very late 1st round or 2nd round picks? It took three draft day trades (with Boston, Chicago and Minnesota) in 2006 to get LaMarcus Aldridge and Brandon Roy, selected 2nd and 7th - hardly late first round or second round picks. With those three trades, he turned the 4th pick, plus garbage, into the two best players in that draft. Yes, he also made some trades for later picks as well, but I'd hardly agree that "Most of his many trades each draft day are to get 2nd round picks or very late 1st round picks".





PapaG said:


> Well, that's simply not true if you consider he has managed two drafts and ended up with LMA, Roy, and Greg Oden with two lottery picks to begin with, along with dumping contracts and gaining cap exceptions for these "late picks" such as Fernandez. EDIT - just read the rest of the thread. Obviously the intent was to start a flame war. Great job, mods.


This is nothing. Remember the war you fought on another board over the onset of the Iraqi War? That one went on for days. I forgot who you had it with. Here are the trades of Draft Days 2006 and 2007. Just as I said, most (at least 5 of 9) were to get 2nd round picks or late 1st round picks.

3 of 6 trades in 2006 (plus the Aldridge trade involved a 2nd rounder)
http://www.prosportstransactions.co...dYear=2006&EndMonth=6&EndDay=30&submit=Search

2 of 3 trades in 2007 (plus the Zach trade involved 2 2nd rounders)
http://www.prosportstransactions.co...dYear=2007&EndMonth=6&EndDay=28&submit=Search


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## Hector (Nov 15, 2004)

nikolokolus said:


> Besides Koponen had his obligatory military service to get out of the way this past year; kind of hard to shuttle back and forth between Portland and Helsinki for reveille.


Had he not lived in Finland last season, he wouldn't have had to do the military duty. In theory, he can delay it several years, but when that time comes, a lawyer can get him out of it. Since the Blazers didn't offer him a contract last summer, he chose to not play on the Continent and get it over with.



HurraKane212 said:


> why is it that some people think that advanced age exempts them from things like courtesy and manners and logical dialogue?


Are you saying that you don't like the sometimes discourteous, forceful, or sarcastic statements aimed at Gogreen, and later me, in this thread? Or are you saying you don't like our responses, which was his pleading for understanding, and my gentle humor? (Please re-read the thread.) Egos who cannot tolerate their beliefs to be questioned are exactly the ones who need that the most.

You compare people along the dimensions of age and intelligence, but neglect to compare by humor. When a humor wavelength is invisible to one's doctrined spectrum of perception, one senses it as a lack of logic or manners. Hence your reaction. I didn't mean that old fogies are smarter than young punks. I just meant that they relate to each other a little differently than when they were young. The first time you do something, you take it seriously. Later, you play around, just to keep it interesting. You might even lie a little about Pritchard bringing in Kemp. The theory is that old guys lie a lot, and I guess in about forty years we'll all find out.


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## barfo (Jan 2, 2003)

HurraKane212 said:


> I guess that in closing I should say that an argument should be judged on merit


Yes!



> not on age,


Right!



> race,


Of course not. 



> gender,


Absolutely not.



> or the number of posts someone has in a forum.


What???? Post count is the best and only way to judge an argument. 



> Additionally, age should grant no special argumentative etiquette.


Sez you, you little whippersnapper. 

barfo


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## Scipio (Feb 18, 2004)

Hector said:


> Had he not lived in Finland last season, he wouldn't have had to do the military duty. In theory, he can delay it several years, but when that time comes, a lawyer can get him out of it.


That's not the way it works. You can delay it but eventually you need medical proves that you're not able to do the military duty. No lawyer can work around this. But he could've done what most of the other finnish professional athletes do and do the duty in "summer camp" way. The duty is spreaded for few years and done bit by bit during summer.


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## Hector (Nov 15, 2004)

I described how it is for most of Europe. That's how all the Euro NBA players (Vlade Divac, etc.) got out of it. In his late 20s, the government usually finds a way to exempt the national hero, whether he does his summer duty or not. But since you're from Finland, I'll defer to you. I can believe that Finland would hold him to the letter of the law.

By the way, you have negative 20 credits? You can go into debt?


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## HurraKane212 (Aug 2, 2007)

nm


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Hector said:


> This is nothing. Remember the war you fought on another board over the onset of the Iraqi War? That one went on for days. I forgot who you had it with.


That is totally off topic and has nothing to do with Joel Freeland or Kevin Pritchard's draft day actions. It is also totally WRONG. I have NEVER, in any forum, under any name, posted ANYTHING, ANYWHERE about the Iraqi war EVER. You obviously have me confused with someone else and have attributed their actions to me. Please stop. and try to keep the discussion on topic.

To which I'll ask - Since when does a slim majority = most? Yes, many of Pritchard's draft day trades involve late first round or second round picks - almost as many don't. Some times they are thrown in to accomplish a higher goal (getting LaMarcus Aldridge, getting rid of Zach and his contract). Pritchard does what it takes to get what he wants. If that involves a few low first rounders and some second round picks, so what? The body of his work over the last two NBA drafts has been brilliant. Getting both Aldridge and Roy in 2006 when starting the day with the 4th pick was absolutely amazing - best draft day in the history of the franchise. Is he perfect? No, I would have preferred Paul Millsap at 30 over Joel Freeland. However, even if Freeland never plays a second of NBA ball (which means he'll never cost us a roster spot, never count against the cap and never cost the team any luxury tax dollars), I'm willing to overlook this "mistake" given what else he accomplished that day and what it has meant, wnd will mean, to this team.

BNM


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

Hector said:


> I described how it is for most of Europe.


Yeah - there's no difference between European countries. None at all. Why they even call them different names is kind of a mystery.



> That's how all the Euro NBA players (Vlade Divac, etc.) got out of it.


A minor detail: this was nearly 20 years ago. And the country that he got out of it for doesn't exist any more. But don't let that bother you.



> In his late 20s, the government usually finds a way to exempt the national hero, whether he does his summer duty or not.


Maybe, just maybe, he actually feels he _ought_ to do it. Is that conceivable? These Scandanavians are crazy, you know. (For one thing, they actually value public education. Go figger.)


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## Hector (Nov 15, 2004)

Boob, you have never posted anything political. I was talking to PapaG. Don't get your blood pressure up. Looks like several of the emotional posters have gone Sheed in this thread. Simmer down, everyone. The fact is that most of Pritchard's trades of the last 2 draft days were for lower-pick players. You can say they were building blocks toward something bigger, but that doesn't make my statement false. But hey, we got a 4-page thread out of that statement and Gogreen saying that maybe Pritchard's late picks haven't produced. Pritchard's fans definitely get emotional over any analysis of him. All this posting takes time, and this minor subject gets no more time from me.


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## gogreen (May 24, 2006)

Ha whatha. I feel a bit vindicated. Everybody who wanted to defend KP and say that he has been near perfect. Those who defended him kept going back to 06' and Roy and LMA.

Now with the 40th richest man in the world and all the liquid assests sitting next to him he couldn't move up and grab the PG that he was gushing about. Was it Westbrook ? DJ ? Bayless ? Buying that 27th pick looks like he has egg all over his face. We have the 33rd and 36th. Like we needed those picks.

For those who said " I was all over the place ". My point was i didn't think KP was everything that you all make him out to be.

I am very disapointed so far in this draft. We have 5 picks now and still don't have our perimeter defender or our PG that both KP and Nate both said they would get. Kp is human folks. I still like him because there are more to being a GM than drafting, I suppose.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

gogreen said:


> Ha whatha. I feel a bit vindicated. Everybody who wanted to defend KP and say that he has been near perfect. Those who defended him kept going back to 06' and Roy and LMA.
> 
> Now with the 40th richest man in the world and all the liquid assests sitting next to him he couldn't move up and grab the PG that he was gushing about. Was it Westbrook ? DJ ? *Bayless* ? Buying that 27th pick looks like he has egg all over his face. We have the 33rd and 36th. Like we needed those picks.
> 
> ...


Psst.... We got Bayless from Indiana, and got rid of Jarrett Jack in the process. 

Still feel vindicated?

BNM


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## #10 (Jul 23, 2004)

I'm pretty sure one of the radio guys (maybe MB) mentioned that Freeland would be on the summer league team.


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