# Marbury as a Knick



## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

I'M from Brooklyn, and I used to LUV to go to My BabySis High School (Boys & Girls) when Marbury came and played them. 

*I Got plenty LUV for Marbury but .... why did he have to come and play for my Knick Team.* 

I was happy when Marbury became a Net. I also argued about the trade of Marbury for Kidd. *Untill I watched the 360 turn around of the Nets by Jason Kidd who knows the PG-Position is the main ENERGY-MAKER for his teammates (Nate Robinson Energy).* The Nets went to the FINALS, plus Jason Kidd earned the MVP hands down his first season with the Nets (But NBA Politics dont award any man who hits his wife). 

I was happy with Marbury in Phoenix while I watched his 20/8 Stat-Sheet and a couple of the Phoenix Suns Games. Especially Amare Stoudemire Rookie season. 

*Marbury dont belong on the Knicks,* and I BLAME Isiah Thomas for bringing him here, and all of Isiah Thomas other Bluddering TRADES by trying to build around Marbury. 
All of Isiah Thomas TRADES for this Knick Team grades a BIG Fat F just like Laydumb. 
*When was the last Time this Knick Team had a .500 season???*


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Man, why so much hate for Isiah......................I actually like what he's doin with the knicks and look forward to actually catch a few games this year unlike past seasons. You got to understand that he came into a bad cap situation, so most of his moves were quick fixes aimed to appease fans in the short, while his long term plans come into fruition. You got to be patiant sometimes bro. His only MAJOR mistake in my opinion was the infamous hire of Larry "My way or the Highway" Brown. He couldn't have been any worse for team chemistry purposes. Other than that tho I would have to disagree with you............and I thought the Randolph move was brilliant.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

*Classic blame game post....*

Yep, it's all Steph's fault that the Knicks stink and he is _solely _responsible for the number of losses and lack of consistent playoff appearances since the departure of Patrick Ewing, who cares about the rest of the players on this _team_, it's all Steph's fault! You hit the nail in the head with your analysis.


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## Truknicksfan (Mar 25, 2005)

I honestly thought Marbury was a GREAT pg last year. Not just good but GREAT. He was a floor general, he didnt crumble under pressure spots, passes when zeke needed him to and scored when zeke needed him to. Honestly if it wasnt for steph last year we win less then 33 games more like twenty somthing.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

Truknicksfan said:


> I honestly thought Marbury was a GREAT pg last year. Not just good but GREAT. He was a floor general, he didnt crumble under pressure spots, passes when zeke needed him to and scored when zeke needed him to. Honestly if it wasnt for steph last year we win less then 33 games more like twenty somthing.


You are _wrong_ Tru, Steph is the root of all evilness that has grace the Knicks. :azdaja: We should have got rid of Steph last year, and let Nate Robinson be the floor general...we would have made the playoffs damnit!


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## Truknicksfan (Mar 25, 2005)

> You are wrong Tru, Steph is the root of all evilness that has grace the Knicks. We should have got rid of Steph last year, and let Nate Robinson be the floor general...we would have made the playoffs damnit!


:lol: 

Your right kitty its funny how steph can have a year where he did EVERYTHING, EVERYONE had wanted him to do his whole career, and he gets hated on still. Its like the a-rod syndrome.:cheers:


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

I just love it. Glad to see Steph is not getting as bad a rap as he has been in the past. And to the thread starter, Nate Robinson over Steph? Not buying it.

I love Nate Robinsons resiliency and how he never quits, but there's too many other shortcomings that outweigh his positives. He's too immature IMO.


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## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

Shortcomings indeed (take it the pun was intended?)

Nate's an Earl Boykins player.
You don't start Earl Boykins, even on a high-octane offense like the Nuggets or Suns.
As it happens, if Mardy Collins develops his pg skills, he's a better fit than Robinson.
The plus is that Collins is 6'5, 6'6 ish, so can be on the court the same time as all your shootfirst guards.

As for Marbury, he did pretty good last year. Look for him to do at least as well this year.
Jared Jeffries should be completely supplanted by Balkman, and if Nichols isn't gonna join the team until next year, look for the Knicks to try and push Quentin Richardson OR Jamal Crawford's value up - if at all possible, I'd like at least one of the two traded.

My reasoning? With Mardy Collins, Marbury and Nate all playing the point, you don't need Jamal there.
With Nichols and Q, you don't need him at the 2.

OR

With Jeffries, Balkman, Chandler and Nichols at the 3, you don't need Q.
With Crawford and Nichols at the 2 (as well as Collins) you don't need Q.

Obviously with all the doubles Curry and/or Randolph draw you need people who can knock down shots, but in my opinion there's too much of a logjam at the swing positions. (at every position, in fact)

Because Marbury and Robinson can both knock down outside jumpers as well, playing Collins at the 2 more is also feasible.

Btw, I didn't say 'trade Jeffries' because I see him as untradeable after the godawful year he had, combined with his contract. Richardson's shooting/rebounding and Crawford's handling/scoring are at least valuable, especially to a playoff team needing bench scoring.

At this point, trading them for expiring contracts would be just fine imo.


Does anyone expect both Curry and Randolph to be on the roster next year?


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

Dont get me wrong, I LUV Marbury/Starbury on and off the court especially the way he Banged the Nike, Addidas, and Rebok companies in the head with his American Manufactured $14.98 Sneakers, and other reasonable price sports wear for the majority of people in this Capitalist country. 
*It's just that why did my Brooklynite-Homeboy Marbury have to come and play for my Home Team the Knicks?* 
I will not compare Marbury Talent with Nate Robinson talent. 
Nasty Nate Robinson is the Surprise off of the Bench for 20+ or more MPG at the Combo Guard spot. Only thing is you have to let Nate Robinson feel out his oponents and let Nate be Nate (He is not a Selfish Player). 

*Marbury is not happy unless he gets 30+ MPG, that is where I disagree with Marbury being a Knick.* If Kenny Smith could take less minutes for Rookie Sam Cassel to WIN a Title and get TWO Championship Rings,why cant Marbury do the same for Nate & Collins???


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Disagree about Nate, Kiyaman*

Although I don't think he is selfish, he just doesn't run a team well. He has less than 2 assists per TO and tends to dribble too much. He also does not play defense at all EXCEPT to go after off the ball blocks, most of which he gets fouls called on him, clean or not. IMO, he is better suited as a spark off the bench for scoring when playing with a PG. He has a value, but I would rather see Collins start with Marbury and bring JC off the bench with either Nichols or Jones, so there is always a defender in the back court. Nate is not going to make this team a winner. His emotions are still out of control and his Bball IQ seems to be quite low. He IS exciting though. When he's on the floor, things happen. Unfortunately, a lot of them are bad.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

Power_Ballin said:


> Man, why so much hate for Isiah......................I actually like what he's doin with the knicks and look forward to actually catch a few games this year unlike past seasons. You got to understand that he came into a bad cap situation, so most of his moves were quick fixes aimed to appease fans in the short, while his long term plans come into fruition. You got to be patiant sometimes bro. His only MAJOR mistake in my opinion was the infamous hire of Larry "My way or the Highway" Brown. He couldn't have been any worse for team chemistry purposes. Other than that tho I would have to disagree with you............and I thought the Randolph move was brilliant.


*Wazup Power-Ballin*, believe me Isiah Thomas did not come into a BAD Cap situation when he was hired by the Knick Organization. Don't let the Media or the ignorance of the next man ideology of the Knicks High Salary Cap fool you this is the BIG APPLE, Madison Square Garden stayed pack with their High prices. 
Every President, CEO, and G.M. in the NBA wished they could've been in Isiah Thomas Shoes when he got hired by the Knicks (with so many expiring contracts that season and the next season to come). Plus an Owner that dont mind you spending millions of dollars or raising the Cap even hire. 
*Come on! who would not want that JOB?* 

Mcdyess & Kurt Thomas were playing so well on their final expiring contract year with Center Mutombo (two year contract), and Doleac expiring contract, that all Isiah Thomas had to do his first 3 months on the job was sitback and listen to all the offers given to him a week before the trading deadline *(The Knicks had the BEST DEFENSIVE Frontcourt BIG-MEN in the League that Season. Better than Shaq & Malone.).* 

When Isiah Thomas made that DUM Trade for Marbury giving up Mcdyess in the early month of December. That made Portland trade Rasheed Wallace to Atlanta which somehow illegally got Rasheed Wallace into a Detroit Jersey to help the Pistons WIN the NBA Championship. Portland was in hot pursuit of a trade with the Knicks for Mcdyess & Ward expiring Contract for Rasheed Wallace (that entire offseason when Laydum was in control) to build around young PF-Zack Randolph. 

On the trading deadline Isiah Thomas gave up two Knick players that were averaging that season for this Knick Team 32 points and 15 rebounds and only 3 turnovers a game with some good defense (6.11 KVH and 6.9 Doleac) Traded for Tim Thomas & Nazr who was clueless that season with their Knick teammates and could not even average close to half of what KVH and Doleac performance gave to this Knick Team. 

The WHOPPER was Isiah Thomas gave up The Knicks 2004 First Round Draft Pick as if there was NO suitable picks in the 2004 first round. Or did Isiah believe that Marbury was going to put this team on its shoulders and carry this team to a 50 WIN Season, when Marbury, Joe Johnson, Penny, Marion, and second Season ROY Amare Stoudemire started the regular season off making the longest losing streak in the NBA, getting their Coach to be the first coach Fired early in November before Isiah got the Knicks Job. 

*What BAD Cap Situation was Isiah Thomas in???*


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

*Re: Disagree about Nate, Kiyaman*



alphaorange said:


> Although I don't think he is selfish, he just doesn't run a team well. He has less than 2 assists per TO and tends to dribble too much. He also does not play defense at all EXCEPT to go after off the ball blocks, most of which he gets fouls called on him, clean or not. IMO, he is better suited as a spark off the bench for scoring when playing with a PG. He has a value, but I would rather see Collins start with Marbury and bring JC off the bench with either Nichols or Jones, so there is always a defender in the back court. Nate is not going to make this team a winner. His emotions are still out of control and his Bball IQ seems to be quite low. He IS exciting though. When he's on the floor, things happen. Unfortunately, a lot of them are bad.


I can say the samething about Jason Kidd when Thorn traded K-Mart, Kerry Kittles, and RJ got clothe-line by Detroit, and Kidd had to play with alot of players that had no running game in their skillz that season. 
President Thorn went out of his way and got Jason Kidd the amazing Vince Carter quick. 

Playing Nate Robinson alongside of teammates that dont run back on defense or run ahead of him on offense, you could call it imaturity or whatever but watching Nate Robinson in Wasington College take off up the court and get an assist or score showed no imaturity at all. 

Watching Nate Robinson and David Lee sit on the Bench in their first Rookie Knick Summer League Games while the Knicks are down by 10 to 20 points and Coach Mark Aquire put both David Lee & Robinson in the game at the same time and the Knicks WIN that game. And Coach Mark Aquire did this in several games and the outcome was the same, you did not see any imaturity in Nate then. And Nate had alot of PG-Competition to beat in that Summer Game on the Knicks. 
All of a Sudden here comes Mr. Media himself Coach Larry Brown who talked bad about David Robinson while coaching the Spurs, talk bad about Reggie Miller & Mark Jackson while coaching the Pacers, Talk bad about Iverson while coaching the 76ers, Talk bad about Billups while coaching the Pistons, talk bad about Marbury & Nate while coaching the Knicks. 
And what do Isiah Thomas do when he Coach the Knicks he bench Nate Robinson for more than half a season for the Marbury, Francis, and Crawford show. 
*Isiah is not to bright to give up Penny expiring contract for Francis when he seen a Starting Lineup of Marbury, Nate, Lee, Davis, and Curry WIN Six straight games after Owner Dolan had a One on One with Larry Brown.*


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

you do realize the knicks had the highest salary payroll when Zeke assumed command and the worst offensive frontcourt in basketball with deke and KT a still hampered mcdyess, a fat sweetney....and when zeke traded for marbury the immortal frank williams was starting at pg .

no talent , no athletic ability , high salaries and the team was like 10-19 and getting worse when he took over and worst of all they were boring .

even with the ending deals they couldn't get below the salary cap they would still be about 20 million over the limit.

so yes kiya it was a bad cap situation.

none of the young nba talent Zeke inherited has a job right now in the nba . so its not like they could think they had a team capable of growth with the talent they had.

and no player he inherited has been more than a spot starter since they left ny the best player is mcdyess.

he inherited a mess.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

Da Grinch said:


> you do realize the knicks had the highest salary payroll when Zeke assumed command and the worst offensive frontcourt in basketball with deke and KT a still hampered mcdyess, a fat sweetney....and when zeke traded for marbury the immortal frank williams was starting at pg .
> 
> no talent , no athletic ability , high salaries and the team was like 10-19 and getting worse when he took over and worst of all they were boring .
> 
> ...



That was 2004, it is 2007, three years later and all of the Knicks contracts are expired now. 
The only long contract he had was Allan Houston and Anderson. 

The Main Point is Expiring Contracts get you good decent Players which Isiah have yet to get. 
Going after players that argue about their Playingtime is not a good sign for any G.M.. Norris, Penny, Tim Thomas, Baker, Crawford, Curry, Jalen, and Francis all had several media incidents with their coaches about their playingtime before Isiah brang them to New York.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Kiyaman said:


> That was 2004, it is 2007, three years later and all of the Knicks contracts are expired now.
> The only long contract he had was Allan Houston and Anderson.
> 
> The Main Point is Expiring Contracts get you good decent Players which Isiah have yet to get.
> Going after players that argue about their Playingtime is not a good sign for any G.M.. Norris, Penny, Tim Thomas, Baker, Crawford, Curry, Jalen, and Francis all had several media incidents with their coaches about their playingtime before Isiah brang them to New York.


How many times must I repeat myself.

The Knicks were NOT allowed to just let expiring contracts run out, which would make them a team that would have been high lottery every season and rebuilding.

They were under strict orders NOT to become a rebuilding team through rookies and such, but to do it by trades. Now it hasnt worked out quite the way Dolan thought it would, where a few trades would make them a playoff team year in year out, but they did make the playoffs once under Isiah, and they thought that was a sign of things to come.

Ownership didn't want a firesale of players for nothing, they felt fans wouldn't want a rebuilding process through the draft.

Besides, look how long it took the Bulls to rebuild through the draft. Look how long it's taking the Celtics, and they finally had to pull a trade for Ray Allen, a trade that wouldn't have been there if the Sonics didn't have the number 1 pick and weren't trying to sell and move the team.

Whether you want to admit it or not, Layden did put this team in a bad state by giving bad contracts out, and messing up picks and trades. Isiah was the new GM and we were STILL paying for Luc Longley and I believe Larry Johnson.

It's been three seasons. Teams don't just rebuild overnight. Look at the Lakers, and they have a top 5 player.

My biggest gripe with Zeke is the signings. Most notably Jerome James and Jared Jeffries.

Please stay away with guys with two J's as their initials Zeke.

Anyways, compare the tradeable assets and their value for the Zeke and Layden eras. Then consider the potential of both teams.

Also expiring contracts doesn't mean you have any pick of any player in the league. They only work well when another team is looking to start over. When we had our expiring contracts there werent many teams in that position.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Kiyaman said:


> That was 2004, it is 2007, three years later and all of the Knicks contracts are expired now.
> The only long contract he had was Allan Houston and Anderson.
> 
> The Main Point is Expiring Contracts get you good decent Players which Isiah have yet to get.
> Going after players that argue about their Playingtime is not a good sign for any G.M.. Norris, Penny, Tim Thomas, Baker, Crawford, Curry, Jalen, and Francis all had several media incidents with their coaches about their playingtime before Isiah brang them to New York.


you do know GM's get fired for doing nothing right?

its not his job to sit around and wait for players to come off the books , it was job to find new talent to replace the old and used up talent on the team .

there was no youth on the team so when those guys left who was going to take up the slack...if the knicks wanted to go down and old and boring team they would have kept layden.

i don't understand how you can in 1 thread talk about how he must play certain players because they are so good and then in this thread talk about how he has gotten no good players.

ron artest called the knicks championship material in africa 2 days ago...so he disagrees with you as well as others , most consider curry an all star caliber player , same with zach randolph ...marbury is a 2 time all star ...i know how you feel about lee , collins and robinson and the other sub 25 year olds from previous posts.

but basically the team started with nothing when zeke got here, no players with any trade value and now he has a bunch of young energetic players .

do you really think deke mutumbo is a viable starting nba center and would rather have him than curry 

or rather have kurt thomas than zach randolph .

frank williams charlie ward howard eisley instead of marbury nate and collins 

you would rather have K. Van horn than q.richardson 
and shandon anderson instead of jamal crawford?

or how about mcdyess instead of david lee or mike doleac instead of randolph morris
.

or how about demarr johnson , othella harrington and mike sweetney instead of renaldo balkman , wilson chandler and demtrius nichols?

this team is just so much better than the dreck thomas inherited.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Doing nothing?*

It would have been fine to let the contracts expire as long as there was a plan in place. There was no plan that anyone could see in the beginning. It wasn't until he was unable to field a competitive team that IT admitted that he had to rebuild. He was simply unwilling to do it at first and used the typical "NY fans won't stand for a rebuilding effort" line. As a fan, I was insulted. He thought he could retool rather than rebuild and he said as much. I think he didn't let contracts run out because it wasn't his plan to do so. No way he would work for a guy telling him what to do. He is far too egotistical.

The team is "rebuilt" now, for better or worse. We shall see how it turned out. If IT is wrong, he has wasted several years because that will mean we are yet years away. If the team is a contender, I'm happy. I would have preferred he let the contracts run out, take the losses and lotto picks, and go for a big FA or two, buts thats me. 

It seems that he is trying to resurrect the Detroit teams he was on, but the game has changed. I see a weak defensive team that will pound teams to death on inside offense but will struggle to stop anyone from scoring. Should be an interesting season.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Doing nothing?*



alphaorange said:


> It would have been fine to let the contracts expire as long as there was a plan in place. There was no plan that anyone could see in the beginning. It wasn't until he was unable to field a competitive team that IT admitted that he had to rebuild. He was simply unwilling to do it at first and used the typical "NY fans won't stand for a rebuilding effort" line. As a fan, I was insulted. He thought he could retool rather than rebuild and he said as much. I think he didn't let contracts run out because it wasn't his plan to do so. No way he would work for a guy telling him what to do. He is far too egotistical.
> 
> The team is "rebuilt" now, for better or worse. We shall see how it turned out. If IT is wrong, he has wasted several years because that will mean we are yet years away. If the team is a contender, I'm happy. I would have preferred he let the contracts run out, take the losses and lotto picks, and go for a big FA or two, buts thats me.
> 
> It seems that he is trying to resurrect the Detroit teams he was on, but the game has changed. I see a weak defensive team that will pound teams to death on inside offense but will struggle to stop anyone from scoring. Should be an interesting season.


I think it was obvious and the point has already been made that while you say it was alright with you ...it was certainly not o.k. with the people who hired Thomas. he was parroting what he was told as cablevision is pretty darn aware of their public image and they didn't want to rebuild they wanted to reload ...but without Houston its stupidity to reload as a drive and kick team without your best shooter, it like trying to be an inside team without your best post player...a recipe for disaster.

I think that at 1st he was trying to rebuild his old piston teams but when H20 went down it put him in a quandry as far as making out his 3 guard rotation which was the backbone of that team and its main offensive weapon...the group of houston marbury and crawford backing them up would have been quite formidable.

this new team is the opposite .

this is an interior based unit , which will try to beat team by getting shots as close to the hoop as possible , this team is probably not a very good defensive unit without serious roster upgrades , but it should be far better than that piston team on offense with consistent inside points from 2 guys who are among the best scorers in the nba ...this team will try to outscore other units, doing just enough on defense to pull out victories.

from a pure physical standpoint eddy and zach are probably the strongest C-PF duo in the league and should be a dominant unit on the boards.


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

I think u need to wait half a season b4 making judgements on this new teams ability because i have severe reservations about the curry/randolph tandem,have u ever seen 2 players with such leaden feet and a penchant for holding on to the ball for 20 secs every posession?

On paper the knicks look legitimate conference contenders but if things start to go wrong it wont be long b4 curry,randolph,nate,steph etc start snapping at each other.

i hope im wrong btw!!


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## bcoleman123 (Jul 13, 2007)

I think Isiah has done a good job. He has made us legitimately younger, and allowed us to have one of the best offensive frontcourts in the East (hopefully). He has also done a great job in the draft, drafting guys that no one expected and recieving criticism for them, until people saw them play in the NBA.

And the Knicks losing woes is Marbury's fault? Yea right! This is a team sport, and one guy can not be responsible for an entire string of seasons. He did improve at the end of last year shooting when he needed to and passing when he needed to. He became more of a passer until Crawford got hurt, then realizing he needed to shoot more he did, and it worked. We will see what this new team can do though.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

*I'm going to take you down memory lane and bring you to the future update.* 

*Detroit Drafted Allan Houston.* Throughout Allan Houston run with Detroit Player Dumars and Grant Hill was not pleasant with Allan Houston performance. They both bashed Allan Houston constantly when he became a Knick. And we all know how close friends Dumars & Isiah became as Players and even closer as retired Players of the Detroit Pistons. 

When Allan Houston hit that last shot vs the Miami Heat to WIN the series in the first round of the Mighty Miami Heat Team that the NBA and Los Vegas had pick 200 to 1 to WIN the 1998-9 Championship Title that season (Knicks were a 8th seeded team). 
After that series the Allan Houston Knicks without injured Patrick Ewing walked right through the Larry Brown Indiana Pacers in 6 Games making the Knicks Houston-Sprewell Tandem look unstopable for the Finals. That offseason the Knicks still did not select a G.M. yet after the firing of Ernie Grunfield the Owner Dolan personally gave Allan Houston that BIG Max Contract that was at least $40 million dollars to much. Although Allan Houston Performance in All the Post Season Games if you were a Betting Knick-Fan Won close to a Billion Dollars in the Betting Market. The Knicks were a 8th seeded team that made it to the FINALS. 

There was NO TEAM in the NBA that was going to swallow or take part in consumming one season of Allan Houston Contract. Everyone who knew anything about the NBA and the Knicks team knew that Allan Houston Contract was a Knick for Life Contract. 
*Everybody but DUM Isiah Thomas.* 

*Allan Houston was a deadly 20 point scorer on the Knicks untill the day that Isiah Thomas became G.M. for the Knicks.* 
Instead of Zeke making friends with Allan Houston like he did with Marbury & Curry, when he first arrived as the Knick G.M. he BASHED Allan Houston his first two seasons as the Knick G.M.. Isiah recieved TWO losing seasons with an INJURED Allan Houston. 

Allan Houston made it explicitly clear to Laydumb publically that offseason to dont trade his best Church Friend Charlie Ward (expiring Contract) on the Knicks because we need Ward's Playoff experience if Mcdyess is healthy and KVH plays his part this season. 
And what was the first thing that Isiah Thomas did his first month as the Knick G.M.? he traded Charlie Ward, plus Embarrassed Coach Chaney in front of a Crowd of Fans by not letting Coach Chaney in Madison Square Garden to Coach the Knicks that night. The Guards had to tell Coach Chaney he was FIRED as the Knicks Coach. 
That is embarrasing to any employee by there supervisor. 
Isiah Thomas Lost respect from FANS and Knick Players for that move. 

Now getting Marbury, after Assistant Coach Eddie Jordan & Mike O'Koren did their best with Marbury for two seasons to Run the Princeton-Offense under Head Coach Scott for New Jersey Nets running offensive players of Kerry Kittles, KVH, Steve Jackson, and K-Mart. 
Stephon Marbury REFUSE to do this in practice and in the game for two seasons making each one of his teammates come down with season INJURIES just not to play with Marbury. 
Somehow this same situation was taking affect with Marbury in Phoenix too in the Start of the 2003-4 season when Phoenix got off to the worst start in their NBA history where the Phoenix Suns had to FIRE their Head Coach before the teams 20th game that season. When last Season Rookie of the Year Amare Stoudemire complained of injuries where he felt he should not be playing in all these consecutive losing games the Phoenix Suns started Shopping Marbury. 

When you take Parker out of the Spurs lineup for a month what happens? 
When you take Chris Paul out of New Orleans lineup for a month what happens? 
When you take Kidd out of the NETS lineup for a month what happens? 
When you take Nash out of the Suns lineup for a month what happens? 
When you take Billups out of the Pistons lineup for a month what happens? 

The above PG are all 35 MPG players for their teams just like Marbury. 
When Isiah Thomas was given an extension on his contract the Knicks went on the longest losing streak this past season, what happen when Marbury was taken out of the lineup during this consistent losing streak and Nate & Collins replaced him? The losing streak was STOPPED. We started winning some and losing some. 

*Now this offseason the Knicks added a NBA player (Zack Randolph) that will insist on taking at least 15 or more shots a game, especially if the team is not playing .500 Ball.* 
Curry wants 15 shots too.
Crawford wants 15 shots too. 
Marbury would like to take 10 or more shots to be contempt. 
*Whats the Problem? that's over 50 shots by just 4 players that only KNOW how to play "ONE on ONE" Ball in their NBA career.* 
Plus they have showed very little talent on playing DEFENSE with their teammates in their NBA career. 
*How long will it take for the Four above Players to learn how to play .500 Ball on both sides of the court together this upcomming season???*


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

the critism of shots distributed could at one time have been made of the pistons .

when players want to win sacrifices are made...for right now the players are saying the right things the season will tell if they mean it or not.

also Layden started the talks with the suns for marbury , but he was fired before he could complete the trade , but its a sure bet the suns who wanted cap releif would have gotten ward and mcdyess at the very least because of their contracts which were ending deals.

there is no conspiracy , thomas initial moves were not of the rebuilding variety they were relaoding moves to build around Houston.

Marbury was the premiere drive and kick guard in the league when the deal was done.

Tim thomas is a better shooter than KVH and nazr was a better player overall than doleac.

along with kurt thomas this team was built to compete now .

built on pick and rolls and drives and kickouts , even with H2O playing roughly half of the games that marbury was on the team for , the knicks finished Marbury 1st season 25-22 and getting better the longer they had to gel.

the problem is microfracture surgery a procedure Houston got and his leg never fully recovered and with that his athletism and ability to be a competent nba player.

sometimes a player comes back and does well , sometimes not, houston falls into the not category....rememeber Crawford was brought in to be a 3rd guard not a starter but he has been starting pretty much ever since.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Sorry Grinch*

But Tim Thomas was not a better shooter than KVH. It might be PERCEPTION but the stats do not bear it out. In fact, they are very close with a slight edge overall to VH and a slight edge from 3 to TT....and I mean slight. KVH was a higher scorer, a better rebounder, a better defender(although not good), and a better locker room guy. IT made the trade on potential. Nazr over Doleac is also debatable. Different styles but he got Nazr to be a shot blocker and low post presence. How'd THAT work out. IT took chances and some worked, some didn't. I firmly believe he wanted to rid the team of all Layden players, though.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Sorry Grinch*



alphaorange said:


> But Tim Thomas was not a better shooter than KVH. It might be PERCEPTION but the stats do not bear it out. In fact, they are very close with a slight edge overall to VH and a slight edge from 3 to TT....and I mean slight. KVH was a higher scorer, a better rebounder, a better defender(although not good), and a better locker room guy. IT made the trade on potential. Nazr over Doleac is also debatable. Different styles but he got Nazr to be a shot blocker and low post presence. How'd THAT work out. IT took chances and some worked, some didn't. I firmly believe he wanted to rid the team of all Layden players, though.



actually the stats do bear it out , Tim Thomas shoots better from 3 point range and 2 point range , so until they make 4 point shots Thomas is the better shooter...and really i dont know who is a better locker room guy Tim Thomas actually appears to be quite a decent fellow and KVH is no chior boy either both have ahd their issues with other teammates and have been traded for the sake of chemistry.

i do agree van horn was a better player though , but as a shooter/finisher Tim is a better option especially on kickouts which is how the team was being reformed as an ouside shooting unit in which nazr was brought in to rebound which he does much better than doleac , and since in the last 5 seasons doleac has pretty much been an end of the bench reserve while nazr more often than not has been a starter , i think narz is clearly the better player...especially considering when doleac did start many years ago all he did was prove he was not starter material.

and i dont think Thomas got nazr for a low post presence just rebounding and a more atletic team.....as mentioned by thomas when the deal was done.



> "We are happy to be adding two players who address our most immediate goal of becoming more athletic," Isiah Thomas said. "Tim Thomas is a young, versatile small forward who suits our style of play very well, and Nazr Mohammed is a strong front-court player who will help us with rebounding and interior defense. Although we had to part with two quality players and individuals, we felt this trade makes us better now and in the future."


http://www.insidehoops.com/trade-ny-atl-mil-021604.shtml

and since nazr is a better defender than doleac its hard to see where Thomas was wrong on that one....and i dont see anything about shotblocking there....basically they got a starter for a reserve.


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## bluecro (Oct 13, 2006)

Man Knicks fan hate Isiah Thomas more than other fans do.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Uh, no grinch*

KVH 44.3 career from 2, TT 43.9

KVH 36.1 from 3, TT 37.3

Where was I wrong again? 

Yeah, Nazr sure is starting material. Not touting Doleac, but on the Knicks he was the better fit. Nazr is not starting material, never was, and never will be. His only starts were on teams that thought he might deliver but ultimately found out he could not. Bench player.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Uh, no alpha*



alphaorange said:


> KVH 44.3 career from 2, TT 43.9
> 
> KVH 36.1 from 3, TT 37.3
> 
> ...


I'll reiterate

on 2 pointers Thim Thomas is shooting .467 for his career , 

KVH .466 

you are reading their fg% which includes them both together 

but since timmy shoots a good bit higher % of his shots from 3 point range and that % is lower than his FG% it brings it down below KVH's fg# but he does shoot a better % from both .

so yeah you are wrong, its really simple math i dont think i should reply again on the topic of their shooting #s.

as for doleac he has started 11 games all due to injury of the the incument starter over the last 5 years ...while Nazr has been installed as a starter on numerous occasions over the last half decade so a bunch of coahes at least for a time thought Nazr was a starter until something better came along which basically makes him a fringe starter , as opposed to doleac who is an end of the bench reserve .

i mean its really simple on the knicks he(doleac) came off the bench behind Deke and when nazr was traded for he started .and since then nazr has for the most part started and doleac has been 3rd string.

nazr is better ....unless you have something that proves otherwise thats what I and those player respective coaches, Thomas who was the GM who swapped MD out and nazr in and the general babsketball viewing public will go by.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Good catch*

on the percentages. I missed that one. Yeah, Nazr is better but he wasn't better for the Knicks makeup. You will never convince me he is starting material though. He has fooled a lot of people but never really lived up to the expectations. By your logic, though, since he started, he is starting material. I was one of those people that never liked the TT trade. I knew some things about his basketball attitude that really turned me off.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Good catch*



alphaorange said:


> on the percentages. I missed that one. Yeah, Nazr is better but he wasn't better for the Knicks makeup. You will never convince me he is starting material though. He has fooled a lot of people but never really lived up to the expectations. By your logic, though, since he started, he is starting material. I was one of those people that never liked the TT trade. I knew some things about his basketball attitude that really turned me off.


actually i believe I termed Nazr a "fringe starter" , which is basically a guy who starts til something better comes along but is also a top reserve.

doleac on the other hand is basically a 3rd string center , a good one but he's not really a guy you would mistake for the equal of a guy like nazr ...but generally back up centers are specialist who are really good at 1 thing...doleac is basically the center version of matt bullard with less range

you could get along for while with nazr starting because he does a few things well and hits the off. boards great, doleac really doesn't do much outside of hit a 15 fter and some occasional rough play.

my logic on the 2 starting is also based on the fact that both have had numerous coaches who have thought the same thing including knick coaches who benched MD but started Nazr, no one thinks Doleac is a starter because of his skill level and how he performed as a starter when he got the chance which was as a guy who should come off the bench.

to me its doleac who is the major dissappointment, he was after selected in the lottery while nazr was taken with the last pick in the 1st round back in 1998, nazr put himself in the position to be a better player by working hard, Mike doleac was a college star on Utah while mohammed was a role player in kentucky.

in my world its pretty simple , Starters tend to start , scorers tend to score , nazr starts more often than not and he is slated to the piston's starter next year because Webber looks like he is going elsewhere, you'd be hardpressed to find a situation in which doleac would be a starter in the league today.

I actually was a fan of the trade because i saw how the team was formed with marbury and 3 outside shooters in the starting lineup (H20, TT and KT) its makes for a very simple yet effective offense Steph is a great finisher so the opposing teams had to collapse and he loves to kick the ball out .

but some1 has to grab rebounds and defend and nazr is a better defender and a better rebounder than doleac so to me it works out fine, except for doleac's outside jumper there really isn't a facet of the game doleac does better than mohammed...you know until Houston got hurt ...a drive and kick offense based on Houston is one thing , tim Thomas is another so when allan went down I had no problem with rebuilding. 

as for TT's personality some guys got along with him , some didn't , the same basically to a degree with Van Horn, both were touted as future stars and were both found to be unworthy , TT off the court he seemed to be a pretty good guy in the way he dealt with adversity in his family.


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