# Skiles comments re: Stan Van Gundy re: Noc



## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

I made a comment last night about how I thought Van Gundy completely overreacted to Noc's foul on Wade. I'm glad Skiles thinks that was over the top as well:



> "I was not real thrilled with Stan's comments, honestly, about how a role player shouldn't do anything to a star," Skiles said. "I think that's some of the attitude that's wrong with the league. I didn't think there was anything malicious there. It was just instinct."
> 
> Nocioni has annoyed countless opponents with his frenetic and physical defense, but ask him about it and you get his soft side and a cat-ate-the-canary smile. He laughed off the idea of being suspended for his hard foul and push to the ground of Dwyane Wade.
> 
> ...


http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...sbits,1,3565700.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines

For those wondering, here are quotes after last night's game...



> "I thought that Nocioni's foul was ridiculous,  " Miami coach Stan Van Gundy said. "It was an absolutely punk play. If you're going to be a tough guy then, you know what, flagrant foul Alonzo Mourning and let's see how tough you are.
> 
> "You're a forward and you're going to come out and take on a guard just because you can't guard him.  I think when you have role players like that taking free shots at the best players in this league, it should be cracked down on very, very, very hard.  It's ridiculous.  "


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

Skiles has it right. Star treatment sucks in the league even if MJ got the benefit of the call all the time. SVG wouldn't have said this last year when he had semi-stars on his team. Now that Wade is a certified stud and has Shaq he's going to have this stance.


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

I agree with Skiles, I thought Van Gundy's quotes were pretty offbase.
The whole thing about the role players taking shots at the best players in the league was just a stupid thing to say, in my opinion.

Also question, did Nocioni get tossed or not? I assumed he did, but someone was saying he just left, which I don't know why he would.
Just curious.


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

Do you think in that comment from SVG he is referring to the foul after the shotfake or the push? If its the former, he has no ground to stand on - it happens in almost every basketball game where a player shotfakes to create contact. Nocioni was well within his right to attempt to block the shot. If it's the latter, big deal, it was one of the weakest shoves ever... let the referees deal with it.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

JRose5 said:


> I agree with Skiles, I thought Van Gundy's quotes were pretty offbase.
> The whole thing about the role players taking shots at the best players in the league was just a stupid thing to say, in my opinion.
> 
> Also question, did Nocioni get tossed or not? I assumed he did, but someone was saying he just left, which I don't know why he would.
> Just curious.


The word I've heard is that Skiles just told him to go to the locker room for his own good, but he wasn't ejected.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Wow, I suddenly feel even stronger about my comments from yesterday on the topic:



yodurk said:


> Nocioni's foul was due to a good shot fake by Wade, and they collapsed due to Nocioni being about 40 pounds bigger and landing on him after the undercut. Those things happen in the NBA...heck, it almost got Jamal Crawford killed last year when he got undercut by a Fred Hoiberg shot fake.
> 
> *Which is why Stan Van Gundy's comments were ridiculous. Van Gundy was criticizing the foul as being a "punk foul". Well, he's just plain wrong. And to follow that up by saying Noch should be punished extra since he's a "role player picking on a superstar" sounds even worse (unless you're a Miami fan). In saying this, he's basically supporting the NBA's desire to coddle superstars...that's bad for the game IMO. *
> 
> Nocioni definitely shouldn't have reacted after the play the way he did, but like I said, it was completely overblown. All I saw was a small shove before he walked away from the play (which is NOT what caused Wade to fall down)...a technical foul (no flagrant) should have been given. Haslem pushed Nocioni into a fan...he should be at least fined for that, if not suspended for 1 game. You can't just push players into the stands like that. It's those sort of things that make the NBA look bad.


Me and Skiles definitely saw eye to eye on the whole superstar treatment comments by Stan Van Gundy. What a ludicrous thing to say...it just verifies what everyone already knows about the league "protecting its stars". And this "protection" turns into a soft and BIASED brand of basketball. Very bad for the game. I think I'm liking Skiles more everyday.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

> "I thought that Nocioni's foul was ridiculous, " Miami coach Stan Van Gundy said. "It was an absolutely punk play. If you're going to be a tough guy then, you know what, flagrant foul Alonzo Mourning and let's see how tough you are.


So Noce should only take on guys that are bigger than him??

Van Gundy don't make this about size, while talking crap about a man that is much bigger than you. And I've seen Noce play aginst a lot more big guys than small guys.

"I'm going to get my big brother, and he's going to beat you up."


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## madox (Jan 6, 2004)

Stan Van Gundy just made my list entitled,

"Fat rich idiots who shouldn't be allowed to open their mouth."


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

How often do you see a coach call out another member of the fraternity. Skiles' statements are actually quite notable. Is this what people mean when they say players coach?


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

I thought Van Gundy's comments were pretty poor also. As others have said, would such a fuss have been made if it were Damon Jones or Qyntel Woods? The whole inference that a "star" should be treated differently is ridiculous. Van Gundy was really upset after that whole incident. I didn't quite get that. It was a hard foul and Noc didn't need the extra push at the end but it wasn't harmful. I just think ole Stan went a bit over the top with his comments.

As an aside, didn't Jent (Orlando Magic coach) make some sort of post-game comment about the foul on Davis? Something to the effect that both teams had played a good hard game and you just don't call a foul in the last seconds of a tight game? Aren't the refs _supposed_ to call fouls? Regardless of how much time is on the clock?

Ah, well. Two more wins (or two NJ losses or any combination thereof) and we can truly celebrate a playoff berth again! Let the opposing coaches squak!


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

I wonder if Stan still feels the same way after watching tape.

The Noc foul/push just wasn't that huge a deal. If Noc had really been trying to hurt the guy, there would be a legitimate beef, but that just wasn't the case.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Yeah, Van Gundy should have just not stuck up for his player and instead praised Nocioni for his hockey-style tactics.

 

I don't remember hearing too many Bulls fans whining about the caste system when MJ was in town, and Phil Jackson complained about role players gunning for him. Weird.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Two rareties at work here. Van Gundy making the delineation between role player and star player, and inferring we should protect star players because well.. they're stars, right? The divide is there, but when has a coach made such a statement? Can't remember one. As others have mentioned, Skiles calling out another coach (though mildly) and finding opportunity to make a statement about the unwritten 'rules' that seem to govern the NBA.

Nice job by Skiles.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> Yeah, Van Gundy should have just not stuck up for his player and instead praised Nocioni for his hockey-style tactics.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't remember hearing too many Bulls fans whining about the caste system when MJ was in town, and Phil Jackson complained about role players gunning for him. Weird.


Noch didn't escalate the situation after the flagrant foul (with Haslem, with random drink throwing fans, with Van Gundy) and in fact apologized afterwards through the media. How was he in any way 'gunning' for Wade? This seems to be what you are inferring, so please clarify


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## grace (Mar 22, 2005)

I've come to the conclusion that SVG is an idiot. He made some comments after the Pacers beat them. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt thinking he was just posturing for the playoffs. Now I think he's just an idiot.


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## BealeFarange (May 22, 2004)

I have no problem with Van Gundy's comments insofar as he was sticking up for his player after an obviously cheap and classless foul...but he didn't have to play the "star vs. scrub" card becase a.) that lobbies for star-coddling which we've all agreed is bad for the league and b.) it's a counter-attack that was made unnecessary by Udonis Haslem (role player) already having levied his own counter-attack. 

Noc did not escelate the situation and he'd already been pushed to the ground. It had to be somewhat humbling for Noc to be pushed onto the ground and then hit with trash and not react with so much as a yell or a sour face...I mean, he just walked off ashamed and took the high road in admitting his mistake. Udonis punished Noc quite appropriately and it's the job of the coach to recognize the fair exchange and take the high road with a "This was an unfortunate incident" comment and leave it at that. 

It's just distressing to me how out of all of this Noc is labelled a role-player thug...I'm not saying he's MUCH more than that, but he has been a fabulous rookie who does and says all the right things with, I reckon, more genuine motivations than many other players. I hope Noc is able to prove he's better than this on a national stage during the playoffs...


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

superdave said:


> Noch didn't escalate the situation after the flagrant foul (with Haslem, with random drink throwing fans, with Van Gundy) and in fact apologized afterwards through the media. How was he in any way 'gunning' for Wade? This seems to be what you are inferring, so please clarify


Let's take a step back and away and consider how the rest of the NBA sees Nocioni -- a chippy, low-talent guy whose primary means of stopping someone is to get inside his head.

Then, consider that all the other NBA teams have access to Roland Ratings and game footage, and with just a little effort, it's pretty quickly apparent that the Bulls are better without Nocioni on the floor. 

Putting two and two together, I think it's well within an opposing coach's rights to arrive at the conclusion that Skiles likes to use Nocioni as a hockey-style "enforcer." 

As VV would say, "Context and perspective." I'll admit I've officially "had it"with Nocioni, and that's influencing my stance, but for us to criticize Van Gundy when we enjoyed a decade or more of absolute white-glove treatment from the league and its officials and when Phil Jackson repeatedly and unashamedly played the exact same card is just unseemly, imo.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

BealeFarange said:


> It's just distressing to me how out of all of this Noc is labelled a role-player thug...I'm not saying he's MUCH more than that, but he has been a fabulous rookie who does and says all the right things with, I reckon, more genuine motivations than many other players. I hope Noc is able to prove he's better than this on a national stage during the playoffs...


Whats the saying, "Everyones a role player?" I agree with your comment though. It's not like Nocioni is injury list fodder who got thrown a couple minutes on the big stage during the dog days of the NBA season. Noc has been a contributor from day one, and though he's no wade, losing him to ejection is a major blow to this team.


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## madox (Jan 6, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> Putting two and two together, I think it's well within an opposing coach's rights to arrive at the conclusion that Skiles likes to use Nocioni as a hockey-style "enforcer."


That's a little overdramatic. Actually it's a lot overdramatic. 

Skiles plays Nocioni becuase he thinks he helps the team win. He gives a hard foul and everyone starts branding him Caligula. WTF? 

Xavier McDaniel: "This is a game. This is a man's game."

If other coach's don't like then tough ****. 

And who cares if Jordan benefitted from "superstar treatment?" It doesn't change the fact that VGundy's comments were half-baked. The Bulls also had a player named Rodman, one of the dirtiest and most malicious players of his time... I didn't hear a lot of Bulls fans complaining about his "hockey-style" tactics like you're complaining about Nocioni's. 

I think it's obvious you've got something personal against him. Why else would a Bulls fan suddenly fall in love with Stan F'ing Van Gandy.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

madox said:


> That's a little overdramatic. Actually it's a lot overdramatic.
> 
> Skiles plays Nocioni becuase he thinks he helps the team win. He gives a hard foul and everyone starts branding him Caligula. WTF?
> 
> ...


I do have something personal against Nocioni. I want the Bulls to win as many games as possible, and Nocioni's reputation (leaving his on-the-court contributions out of this for the moment) is going to make it more difficult for the Bulls to do that.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> Let's take a step back and away and consider how the rest of the NBA sees Nocioni -- a chippy, low-talent guy whose primary means of stopping someone is to get inside his head.
> 
> Then, consider that all the other NBA teams have access to Roland Ratings and game footage, and with just a little effort, it's pretty quickly apparent that the Bulls are better without Nocioni on the floor.
> 
> ...


So you're ready to paint Nocioni's ceiling after less than one year in the league? I'll admit, even as the biggest Noch apologist around here, I've had it with Noch at times too (offensively that is). But how could you not respect his hustle and effort defensively? I guess you could use a sample size of one and look at the Miami game versus Wade. Maybe throw in the Lebron game too. But Noch goes as hard at Ira Newble as he does with the uberstars in this league. And that gets some coaches peeved evidently.

As for getting inside player's heads, isn't that what wing defenders (not named Scottie Pippen) are supposed to do? Play physical, contest shots, box out, and play good fundamental team defense? Getting inside player's heads is a byproduct of playing great defense. That or be a physical freak like Pippen who was the best wing defender I have ever seen. Oh yeah, he got into some great player's heads too (I am in NO WAY comparing Noch to Pip however )

I'm not defending the play versus Wade, it was wrong and Noch even said as much. But he's done nothing to escalate it afterwards. Why choose until now to label Noch a hockey-style enforcer? Because of one foul that Noch later apologized for? He was having one of his better games all year offensively and was one of the few Bulls players that night that seemed to care. At least that's the perspective I took from it when watching the replay of the game.

I'm not buying the Roland Ratings, as we're better with Eddy Curry off the court than on it. Hinrich should be benched or traded because he shoots 39%. Tyson has no offensive skill and should never be passed the ball on offense. All hyperbole here, allow me to add another: Noch is an enforcer whom Skiles sends in to gun for the team's best player.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

I agree with Skiles , SVG is wrong.

The foul itself was hard , but we've all seen it happen many time before when a player eats a good fake. The Push little after was not ok , but very far from being harmful. Nothing could happen to Wade from that little push.
And this star atitude is all wrong - So what is he saying , the Bulls , a team that succeeds with no superstar (and we can even add Pistons to this) should play Gently with other teams stars , but play hard against the role players. Thats just stupid. What would he say if he had no Superstar on his team , and the foul was against Jones??


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

I guess ScottMay and I are riding on this side of the train alone.

Forgetting about whether SVG was right or wrong or said something stupid for a minute here, I need to rant about Nocioni, in general...

I'm pretty sick of Nocioni at this point, also. His "act" is wearing thin. I can only take so much of players like him. Players who lack great genuine skills, but try to make up for it by playing extra "hard", "tough", and "gritty." I have never been a fan of those players because they're not fun to watch. Do I respect that he plays hard? Of course. Do I respect that he'll take it strong to the basket and not back down from star players? Of course. To a point.

There's a reason why Nocioni has pissed off countless opposing players all season. I mean, even Al Harrington, who seems to be an actual "good guy," wanted to clock him several times. Is it because he's just _that_ good and these players are bitter about that? No, it's because he's an irritating, annoying hack. He plays extra physical because he has no choice. He flops because he has no choice. He plays with reckless abandon because he has no choice. HE SIMPLY DOES NOT HAVE THE SKILLS OF OTHER PLAYERS IN THE LEAGUE. I said that in the summer, after watching him in the Olympics. It seemed obvious to me then and still is now. It's somewhat frustrating that I seem to be in such a small group who believes the same, because I respect so many of you guys' opinions on everything else. But, in this case, I stick to my guns.

If we're going to talk about guys who "play hard" and "play the right way," look at someone like Chris Duhon. He does all the same intangible things, but without going over the line of becoming more of a nuisance than a player. He hustles and dives for balls the same as Noch, but he also has the skills to go along with that. He doesn't have to resort to being a psuedo-goon.

I can see why it's easier as a Bulls fan to like Noch and laugh off a lot of his tendencies because he's "one of ours," but I have a problem with that, because I hate players like that when they're on other teams. If you guys like those kind of players, that's great. More power to you. Keep on loving "our guy". But, I'm not jumping on that bandwagon.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

PC Load Letter said:


> I guess ScottMay and I are riding on this side of the train alone.
> 
> Forgetting about whether SVG was right or wrong or said something stupid for a minute here, I need to rant about Nocioni, in general...
> 
> ...


Point(s) taken. Let's play Madlibs for a second. Take this paragraph, insert <b>Eddie Robinson</b> into wherever Nocioni is mentioned. Replace 'no skills' with 'great athleticism', 'plays hard and effort' with 'lazy'.... 'everyone hates him' with 'he's such a likeable guy'.... etc, etc. Keep 'act is wearing thin' and 'I'm fed up with him' the <b>same</b>. That would probably read as superdaves' rant against eRob. But this is an aside.

PCLoad, I know you were never on the bandwagon and in reality its only me and Chapu on it. After suffering through some of the players the Bulls have trotted out here the past few seasons, Noch is like a breath of fresh air. Where were the posters calling out Noch before the Wade foul? Weren't they the same ones praising him for the game against Lebron? I'm not trying to start a 100 page thread on this (oh wait yes I am  but I think we're making waaayyyy too much out of this. Noch isn't God's gift to basketball, but he certainly isn't a no talent goon like some have inferred here.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

superdave said:


> Point(s) taken. Let's play Madlibs for a second. Take this paragraph, insert <b>Eddie Robinson</b> into wherever Nocioni is mentioned. Replace 'no skills' with 'great athleticism', 'plays hard and effort' with 'lazy'.... 'everyone hates him' with 'he's such a likeable guy'.... etc, etc. Keep 'act is wearing thin' and 'I'm fed up with him' the <b>same</b>. That would probably read as superdaves' rant against eRob. But this is an aside.
> 
> PCLoad, I know you were never on the bandwagon and in reality its only me and Chapu on it. After suffering through some of the players the Bulls have trotted out here the past few seasons, Noch is like a breath of fresh air. Where were the posters calling out Noch before the Wade foul? Weren't they the same ones praising him for the game against Lebron? I'm not trying to start a 100 page thread on this (oh wait yes I am  but I think we're making waaayyyy too much out of this. Noch isn't God's gift to basketball, but he certainly isn't a no talent goon like some have inferred here.


I can only speak for myself, but I've been "calling out Noch" since the summer. I've been right here and I know ScottMay hasn't changed his stance a bit since then, either. I can't speak for anyone else.

"No talent"? You're right, he has some. Just far less than most players. You have to have at least some talent to get into the league, unless you're 7 feet tall. I give him that. But, I don't enjoy his brand of basketball and never will.

I agree it's a breath of fresh air to have hard-working, unselfish, all-out-effort guys. We have a bunch. But, there's a line between those guys and guys like Nochioni. He's on the other side of the line to me.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

I've got to go with SuperDave here. I'm not understanding the Nocioni is a goon position or that he has no skills. If he was a no-skilled goon, he wouldn't be in the league and he wouldn't be a decent contributor to a playoff-bound team. Dalibor Bagaric was a no-skill goon.

As for his irritating style of play, I can only say this: Whenever I used to coach, I would always tell my players - nobody can get inside your head. You let them inside. Anybody whose played the game for any length of time, be it orgainized ball or playground ball, has come across that guy (or gal!) who is just plain irritating. Always in your face. Always chasing you around. Grabbing, holding, maybe nudging you a bit too hard. It's that players choice to play that way. How you respond to that type of play is entirely your own choice. Sure, Nocioni is an irritating player. He's constantly hounding whomever he's assigned to. He's a big pain in the ***. He doesn't make Al Harrington or Lebron James react to him. Harrington and James (and anybody else) choose to respond to his style of play.

Nocioni will never be the most physically gifted guy on the planet. He does play a style of defense that is irritating, but clearly within the rules. If he can get inside of opposing players heads, so be it. Is his way of playing no different that trash talking? Particularly when that trash talk is intended to incite you or otherwise throw you off your game? 

I don't think Noc is ever going to be a well-liked player - especially by opposing small forwards. Hell, even Chandler looked irritated with him last night fighting for boards. The guy (noc) knows no other gear than all-out. I wish more, talented, NBA athletes took his approach to the game.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

I agree, lets send Nocioni packing back to Spain and bring back Eddie Robinson, you know, that guy with so much talent. Genuine talent.

The Duncans need the Nocionis to win championships, like it or not. And IMHO Nocioni is very good at playing his role, playing it with passion, no matter if he is injured or not. He is tough, so what? I dont want little girls playing for my team, whining all day long to the refs. 

And if this makes you feel better, Ginobili and some wannabe basketball players with no apparent skills, talent, etc defeated the Dream Team, full of stars, great talent, those who supposedly know how to play the game of basketball (the right way). 

Sure.


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## badfish (Feb 4, 2003)

PC Load Letter said:


> I can only speak for myself, but I've been "calling out Noch" since the summer. I've been right here and I know ScottMay hasn't changed his stance a bit since then, either. I can't speak for anyone else.
> 
> "No talent"? You're right, he has some. Just far less than most players. You have to have at least some talent to get into the league, unless you're 7 feet tall. I give him that. But, I don't enjoy his brand of basketball and never will.
> 
> I agree it's a breath of fresh air to have hard-working, unselfish, all-out-effort guys. We have a bunch. But, there's a line between those guys and guys like Nochioni. He's on the other side of the line to me.


Point taken. I happen to fall with superdave on this one. Granted, the guy doesn't have all-star skills but I do expect him to improve. I guess for opposite reasons, I'm just as frustrated why some posters fail to see what Noc DOES bring to this team. In fact, players like Noc become even more valuable in the playoffs where physicality becomes more of a factor.

I don't consider him a thug at all. He doesn't taunt. i don't think he's out to hurt other players. However, he does play all-out every minute he's on the floor. How can I not get behind a player like that?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

No player embodies what this year's team is all about better than Noc. We needed an attitude adjustment on the Chicago Bulls. Noc's attitude helps to lead to winning basketball a lot more than.. oh... say Jalen's and EROB's.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

El Chapu said:


> I agree, lets send Nocioni packing back to Spain and bring back Eddie Robinson, you know, that guy with so much talent. Genuine talent.
> 
> The Duncans need the Nocionis to win championships, like it or not. And IMHO Nocioni is very good at playing his role, playing it with passion, no matter if he is injured or not. He is tough, so what? I dont want little girls playing for my team, whining all day long to the refs.
> 
> ...


Wow, it's like deja vu. I swear I've been through this before. Here you go again putting words in my mouth and taking what I said and taking it a step further than I did.

Nice.

Yes, I'm complaining because Nocioni is tough. I want little girls on this team. Definitely. Also, I love how you insinuate I'm making generalizations about a whole country of basketball players because I don't like Nocioni. Nice.

Also, yes, I'd love ERob back. I mean, didn't you see me saying that all over my post? It was clear! Oh wait...I didn't say that, either. OK.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

The bottom line is I don't like Nocioni as a basketball player. It's my preference. We're all free to differ on that. It's opinion; what this board is all about.

It's nice to see some of you be logicial(superdave, fl_flash and badfish, for example) and not taking that personally.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> No player embodies what this year's team is all about better than Noc. We needed an attitude adjustment on the Chicago Bulls. Noc's attitude helps to lead to winning basketball a lot more than.. oh... say *Jalen's* and EROB's.


quoted for posterity


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

PC Load Letter said:


> Wow, it's like deja vu. I swear I've been through this before. Here you go again putting words in my mouth and taking what I said and taking it a step further than I did.
> 
> Nice.
> 
> ...



Sorry, did I miss something? Did I quote you? 

No. Here we would call it "Cola de paja"


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> quoted for posterity


Haha.

Note that I didn't say that a team cannot win with Jalen though. Just that his "get-mine" attitude can lead to tension.

I don't sense the "get-mine" attitude from Noc... unless we're talking about grabbing the last piece of Sbarros pizza.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

To add more to my point, a basketball player with no skills doesnt win an MVP award in the ACB league, europe's toughest league with talents such as Bodiroga, Scola, Macijauskas, to name some.

And even if someone like Nocioni the basketball player or not, Im sure there are 16 NBA playoffs team that would love to have him on their roster.


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

El Chapu said:


> Sorry, did I miss something? Did I quote you?
> 
> No. Here we would call it "Cola de paja"


Oh, so you weren't replying to me? OK, so you were replying to ScottMay then? There's only two of us in this thread sharing the opposite views of yours.

Sorry I confused you putting words in my mouth when, in fact, you were simply putting words in someone else's. Please carry on.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

SVG has to stick up for his team and players. I dont think anyone questions Nocioni's foul, it was very much a part of the game. but the pushes by Nocioni and Haslem were crossing the line. Both teams are at fault. Move on.

I don't see why you suspend either guy, but a small fine might be necessary just b/c it happened. Oh well....


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> No player embodies what this year's team is all about better than Noc. We needed an attitude adjustment on the Chicago Bulls. Noc's attitude helps to lead to winning basketball a lot more than.. oh... say Jalen's and EROB's.


 :greatjob: 

Exactly. He definitely ain't our best player. He ain't even our 5th(+) best player. But thats the thing about us this year. We are a team with no Current superstar , and totally succeed based on Defense. He has a big part in the attitude change with our Bulls , we became Bullies , and he's our top man in that. You cannot dislike Noc and like a buster like crazy Ron simply cause Artest has also good offensive skills. He's still a dirty mofo (nontheless , crazy or not , I'd welcome him back on our side) who bangs , scratches , pushes and does anything BB rules will allow him (and more in Rons Case) . I do not think we'd look the same without Chapu. I think we would'nt be as good.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

PC Load Letter said:


> Oh, so you weren't replying to me? OK, so you were replying to ScottMay then? There's only two of us in this thread sharing the opposite views of yours.
> 
> Sorry I confused you putting words in my mouth when, in fact, you were simply putting words in someone else's. Please carry on.


No, If Im talking to you or replying to your previous post, I would simply quote you. And that was not the case.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*nocioni = blood on the horns!*


i'm glad he's a bull. 


:rbanana:


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

One general note: I long for a day when a criticism of Nocioni isn't construed as a venomous personal attack on an entire nation and everyone who hails from there. 

SD, I think you're confusing my personal feelings with what I'm assuming the other 29 teams perceive Nocioni to be. I *wish* that Skiles thought of him only as a Tie Domi-style enforcer. Unfortunately and to the contrary, my guess is that Skiles feels Nocioni is one of the Bulls' three or four best players.

I don't know what else I can say about this. His offense is atrocious, his defense is wildly overrated, and imo he's on the verge of becoming sort of a reverse good-luck charm when it comes to officiating. Not a whole lot of upside there, particularly when he plays the same position (and only the same position, at least with any kind of effectiveness) as Luol Deng.

I'll root for Nocioni as long as he's a Bull, but I firmly believe that the less he plays, the better off we are. And regrettably, Deng's injury does nothing to make me want to change my stance.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

So Skiles is either dumb or wants to lose as many games as possible. You choose.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

PC Load Letter said:


> I guess ScottMay and I are riding on this side of the train alone.
> 
> Forgetting about whether SVG was right or wrong or said something stupid for a minute here, I need to rant about Nocioni, in general...
> 
> ...


The counterside to this argument is that Noc makes up for his lack of talent/skill by giving it all on every play. As long as you (and he) knows his limits, there is nothing wrong with playing such a guy.

He has a lot higher ceiling in the league than most people on this board give him credit for. By saying this, I don't mean that I think he will be a star. What I mean is that seeing his erratic, out of control, play has put a tight leash on him by fans of the team.

What a lot of people do not notice is how large of strides Nocioni has made this year offensively. Earlier in the year, he was trying to gun from the perimeter, and doing a terrible job of it. He would try to push the ball himself on breaks and lead fast breaks. Now, he has recognized his limitations in these areas, and has concentrated on going to the hole when he can get his man to bite on a fake and only takes perimeter shots when he is wide open or when the shot clock is running down. When he rebounds, he passes the ball to the PG almost immediately unless he has a lot of daylight to dribble the ball. We all still go Nonononononoicioni because it was humorous earlier in the year. But how often has this hurt us lately. Nocioni has stepped up big time in Deng's absence, and has proved he can be more than just a defensive specialist.

Nocioni reminds me a lot of Chandler in earlier seasons. I was miffed on how clueless he looked offensively and how poor his ball handling and passing were (Chandler).

This season, Chandler still "looks" like a liability offensively, and looking at him individually, he is. However, there are distinct differences in Chandler's play on offense this season versus season's past. He has significantly improved his screening, allowing better and more open looks for the guards. He is light years ahead in his passing development than I would have expected. No, his assist numbers are not great, but he delivers the ball where he is supposed to, and for the most part does it pretty effectively. He also has shown a good ability to draw a foul and get to the line, while steadily increasing his FT% the whole year.

Point being, while they don't show up in the stat lines, there are significant, but often unnoticed improvements for both of these "problem" players on the offensive end, where they have really struggled previously in their NBA careers.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

El Chapu said:


> So Skiles is either dumb or wants to lose as many games as possible. You choose.



listen, i like nocioni, but this is completely uncalled for IMO.

give it a rest.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> One general note: I long for a day when a criticism of Nocioni isn't construed as a venomous personal attack on an entire nation and everyone who hails from there.


 :greatjob: 



> SD, I think you're confusing my personal feelings with what I'm assuming the other 29 teams perceive Nocioni to be. I *wish* that Skiles thought of him only as a Tie Domi-style enforcer. Unfortunately and to the contrary, my guess is that Skiles feels Nocioni is one of the Bulls' three or four best players.


Point(s) taken. While I won't say that skiles sees it as so, he does seem to be complimentary of Noch moreso than a lot of his players. I could see how <i>any</i> coach would love a player who gives maximum effort especially defensively.



> I don't know what else I can say about this. His offense is atrocious, his defense is wildly overrated, and imo he's on the verge of becoming sort of a reverse good-luck charm when it comes to officiating. Not a whole lot of upside there, particularly when he plays the same position (and only the same position, at least with any kind of effectiveness) as Luol Deng.
> 
> I'll root for Nocioni as long as he's a Bull, but I firmly believe that the less he plays, the better off we are. And regrettably, Deng's injury does nothing to make me want to change my stance.


Losing Deng (whom I consider the glue to this team in a lot of ways) is huge. Noch is getting more minutes than even this bandwagoner wants to see... but I think the Bulls can manage. We'll just need other players to step up, since Noch will his crazy self each and every night. This being said, I do see room for improvement in aspects of his game and have seen improvement throughout this season already.


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## madox (Jan 6, 2004)

Can we assume then that anyone who dislikes Noc because of his dearth of talent absolutely despises Chandler?

... I disagree SMay that he is wildly overrrated on defense. I've never heard anyone say that he is an elite defender or "lockdown" defender. He's just a guy who can guard most 3's in the league and do an above average job of it.

He did play 40+ minutes against Cleveland and held King James to 10-28. That's pretty good.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

Another thing that many may overlook (and consider "overrated") is the fact that this guy is a winner. He has won at every level, anywhere, everywhere. From Argentina, to Spain, playing for the National Team, now with the Bulls returning to the Playoffs after 7 seasons. 

I think if you are a stat geek, you are going to despise Nocioni. Now, if you enjoy watching the game and try to make a read out of it, you will notice how important is Nocioni to the Bulls.

$0.02


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Are we talking about the same Nocioni that put LeBron James on lockdown the other night? Was it his hockey style that did that? This guy has great defensive instincts/skills and although his offense isn't great, it's not at all bad. 

I hope the same people that don't like Nocioni because of his over-aggressive and reckless style of play, also hate *Ron Artest* for the same reason. Nocioni is a poor mans Artest, but he brings all the same things to the table, minus the going crazy. Now you're seeing how much the Pacers need Artest, even though most of his contributions were in the same ways Nocioni contributes. 

These are the guys you need to win. You need fire, you need passion, you need hustle and aggressiveness. You need to put a little fear into the opponent.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

I think we can all agree Noci is a above average defender who will be only better next year and IMHO he is one of the best rebounding SF in the NBA, period. But there is also a city versus europe issue here as well. noci was a star in europe and there is this on going conflict in the league of foriegn versus us ball players. And this applies to noci.

Case in point when jemaine o'neal toke a swipe at noci the 2nd game of the season or james elbowing noci and taking a couple of cheip shots at noci. I am an america star ball player and i am not letting some european player get the best of me. 

0.02 david


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

giusd said:


> Case in point when jemaine o'neal toke a swipe at noci the 2nd game of the season or james elbowing noci and taking a couple of cheip shots at noci. I am an america star ball player and i am not letting some european player get the best of me.


Yeah, good point. I have to think there is some anger from the US players, especially ones that played on the team this summer, since Nocioni's team won the gold, and his team is the team that put USA out of it.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Are we talking about the same Nocioni that put LeBron James on lockdown the other night? Was it his hockey style that did that? This guy has great defensive instincts/skills and although his offense isn't great, it's not at all bad.
> 
> I hope the same people that don't like Nocioni because of his over-aggressive and reckless style of play, also hate *Ron Artest* for the same reason. Nocioni is a poor mans Artest, but he brings all the same things to the table, minus the going crazy. Now you're seeing how much the Pacers need Artest, even though most of his contributions were in the same ways Nocioni contributes.
> 
> These are the guys you need to win. You need fire, you need passion, you need hustle and aggressiveness. You need to put a little fear into the opponent.


Hey, whenever Andres wants to bring the 25 ppg, 50% FGs, 6 boards, 3 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, and *GENUINE* lock-down defense that Artest was bringing before he got suspended, he should do that, and I will become his biggest fan.

Until then, apples and oranges comparisons that have very little basis in reality won't do a hell of a lot to sway me. There's an awful lot of noise on this board about his defensive ability, but how about we let NBA coaches judge the issue and see how many votes for All-Defense Nocioni gets?


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> Hey, whenever Andres wants to bring the 25 ppg, 50% FGs, 6 boards, 3 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, and *GENUINE* lock-down defense that Artest was bringing before he got suspended, he should do that, and I will become his biggest fan.
> 
> Until then, apples and oranges comparisons that have very little basis in reality won't do a hell of a lot to sway me. There's an awful lot of noise on this board about his defensive ability, but how about we let NBA coaches judge the issue and see how many votes for All-Defense Nocioni gets?


I believe SirPatch said 'poor man's Artest' and Ron Ron didn't really arrive until his third season in the league, when he began to show a semblence of offensive skill. Yet you're ready to castigate the guy in only his rookie season? How many votes did Ron Ron get in his first 3 seasons? How many did Hinrich get last year? Somewhere rlucas is smiling 

I'm confused ScottMay as to what is so upsetting about Noch's game. I don't mean what other players or coaches think of him (do we really want all our players to be respected and popular ala Jalen Rose?) ... but you personally. what about his game is so poor that you can't recognize what he brings to the team?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

One thing I really like about Nocioni is that he does not want to "buddy up" with the opposing players. He's out there to win the basketball game. There's no doubt about that. He does not shy away from the superstars of the league... he slaps the best D he can on them and if they don't like it, tough.

I think he's aggressive, chippy... but not dirty.

I respect his ability to annoy the opposition.

And... he has an OK shot, can penetrate when he needs to, has the athleticism to THROW IT DOWN in traffic. There are other areas which need work, but I've seen improvement this year.

I really think the energy brought to the floor by Noc, Chandler, Hinrich... and others creates a feedback loop that the whole team benefits from. Its fun to watch.

Its saved Curry (hope the heart is OK) and Chandler in Chicago, IMO, which is a good thing.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> Hey, whenever Andres wants to bring the 25 ppg, 50% FGs, 6 boards, 3 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, and *GENUINE* lock-down defense that Artest was bringing before he got suspended, he should do that, and I will become his biggest fan.


It's funny that you're using stats to prove their worth, because Artest is not a stats guy. His value is in his hard nose smash mouth style of play and defense, and his competitive fire and will to win. But Artest has put up 15 and 18 his past two seasons in 34-37 minutes, which isn't much different from 8 points in 22 minutes. Nocioni is a much better rebounder as well.



ScottMay said:


> Until then, apples and oranges comparisons that have very little basis in reality won't do a hell of a lot to sway me.


Apples and oranges? They are small forwards, they are known for their defense, they are known for being a little crazy, they are known for their fire and passion for the game, they are both known for getting into peoples heads. That's apples and oranges? More like oranges and oranges. Talk about opinions not based in reality.  



ScottMay said:


> There's an awful lot of noise on this board about his defensive ability, but how about we let NBA coaches judge the issue and see how many votes for All-Defense Nocioni gets?


He shouldn't get any votes, because he doesn't play enough minutes. The same reason Gordon shouldn't get rookie of the year, is the same reason Nocioni, one of my favorites, shouldn't get any defensive awards.


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## madox (Jan 6, 2004)

giusd said:


> noci was a star in europe and there is this on going conflict in the league of foriegn versus us ball players. And this applies to noci.
> 
> Case in point when jemaine o'neal toke a swipe at noci the 2nd game of the season or james elbowing noci and taking a couple of cheip shots at noci. I am an america star ball player and i am not letting some european player get the best of me.
> 
> 0.02 david


I get the same feeling, giusd. 




ScottMay said:


> There's an awful lot of noise on this board about his defensive ability, but how about we let NBA coaches judge the issue and see how many votes for All-Defense Nocioni gets?


Can he still be a good defender if he isn't All-NBA?
For comparison, is Chandler a good defender?
Hoy many All-Defense votes will he get?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

This is one of the dumber arguments this board has ventured into.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> One thing I really like about Nocioni is that he does not want to "buddy up" with the opposing players. He's out there to win the basketball game. There's no doubt about that. He does not shy away from the superstars of the league... he slaps the best D he can on them and if they don't like it, tough.
> 
> I think he's aggressive, chippy... but not dirty.
> 
> ...


k4e, if you keep saying stuff that's so easy to agree with, I'm going to wonder if someone coopted your handle.

Seriously, this talk of him being a no-talent hack is a bit of a head-scratcher. Is he a walking display of skills? No. But is he a relatively sound basketball player whose STYLE of play is frenetic? Yes. He is a passable ballhandler for his size. He's a decent shooter. He's a very good rebounder. He's a good defender. He has the athleticism to finish at the rim. That seems like a respectable skill set to me. Yes, his decision-making is puzzling sometimes, and on his bad nights he creates more problems than he solves. However, the way some of these posts sound, you'd think Skiles pulls a Don Chaney every time he sends Noc into the game. Noc is a better backup SF than most teams have, so I just disagree with that.

I understand what PCLL and ScottMay are trying to say about Noc, but I don't see the thuggish mentality in him. He's the embodiment of the guy who you want to punch when he's on the other team, but love playing with - I think any of us here who played organized sports ran into at least one guy/girl like that in our careers. He plays in-your-jersey, physical defense, but I don't think he's trying to get into anyone's head or bait anyone into anything, that's just how he plays. He shouldn't have pushed Wade, but it didn't look to me like he was trying to hurt him, and he got up and walked away after being taken down by Haslem. He didn't show malicious intent IMO. If these guys are so annoyed by Noch's defense, they should take advantage of their advantage in footspeed and go around him instead of pouting that he's too physical. I just don't think it's an "act" with Noc, it's just his style - which has its benefits and drawbacks.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

superdave said:


> I believe SirPatch said 'poor man's Artest' and Ron Ron didn't really arrive until his third season in the league, when he began to show a semblence of offensive skill. Yet you're ready to castigate the guy in only his rookie season? How many votes did Ron Ron get in his first 3 seasons? How many did Hinrich get last year? Somewhere rlucas is smiling


Ron didn't get votes because he played for a godawful team. I figure since the Bulls are now a good team, and because defense is their calling card, if Noce is so important to the cause, it'll be recognized by those who see it closer and know it better than any of us do.



> I'm confused ScottMay as to what is so upsetting about Noch's game. I don't mean what other players or coaches think of him (do we really want all our players to be respected and popular ala Jalen Rose?) ... but you personally. what about his game is so poor that you can't recognize what he brings to the team?


I am willing to overlook things like Curry's Roland Rating and Hinrich or Duhon's shooting percentage because it's pretty easy for me to see the other positives they bring. I see no such positives with Nocioni. I stand by my observation that he's not that great a defensive player (at the very least, he's nowhere near as versatile as his suporters would have you believe). His offensive skills are shaky at best. And that's before you get to all the theatrics.

I also believe Noce gets far, far, far too much credit for some sort of magical turnaround in the Bulls' approach to defense. The Bulls aren't suddenly a stout defensive team because of Nocioni's hard-nosed play. They're a stout defensive team because Paxson finally achieved a critical mass of real-life NBA players, and even better, ones who like to play defense. Chandler. Davis. Hinrich. Duhon. Deng. And yes, even Nocioni. But he's just a small part of it. And his antics don't give us any extra swagger; in fact, they're becoming more of a source of embarrassment.

PC Load already put it pretty eloquently -- I just don't like the type of player that Nocioni appears to be. I hate having to root for the Laimbeers, Rodmans (especially after his skills declined), etc. We have plenty of great defensive players who can get it done without all the nonsense, and one of them, Deng, happens to play the only position Nocioni can. We should always try to maximize our players' abilities, and I'm not writing anyone off, but Nocioni would appear to me to be a 10 mpg guy on a really good team that's healthy. It bothers me that Skiles sees him as much more than that, and it's going to be very problematic when a healthy Deng -- can we agree his upside is vastly higher than Nocioni's? -- is back next year.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

madox said:


> Can he still be a good defender if he isn't All-NBA?


Of course. I don't think he's a good defender, though, and his plus-minus doesn't either. So basically the "Nocioni is a great defender" argument boils down to "I don't care about statistics, and my opinion holds more water than yours." Cool!



> For comparison, is Chandler a good defender?
> Hoy many All-Defense votes will he get?


Chandler's a terrific defender, and I expect him to make an All-Defense team this year.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> We have plenty of great defensive players who can get it done without all the nonsense, and one of them, Deng, happens to play the *only position Nocioni can*.


Wrong.




ScottMay said:


> We should always try to maximize our players' abilities, and I'm not writing anyone off, but Nocioni would appear to me to be a 10 mpg guy on a really good team that's healthy.


Wrong.




ScottMay said:


> It bothers me that Skiles sees him as much more than that, and it's going to be very problematic when a healthy Deng -- can we agree his upside is vastly higher than Nocioni's? -- is back next year.


Wrong. It wont be problematic at all, since you are going to go through highs and lows, injuries, personal problems and there are enough minutes for both of them. The fact that they bring different things to the table also gives more opportunities to Skiles to work his "magic". And they can also share the court from time to time. So it wont be a problem. They both will be on their sophomore season.
Correct. Deng's upside is higher than that of Nocioni.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> Of course. I don't think he's a good defender, though, and his plus-minus doesn't either. So basically the "Nocioni is a great defender" argument boils down to "I don't care about statistics, and my opinion holds more water than yours." Cool!


Same could be said about Curry.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It's funny that you're using stats to prove their worth, because Artest is not a stats guy. His value is in his hard nose smash mouth style of play and defense, and his competitive fire and will to win. But Artest has put up 15 and 18 his past two seasons in 34-37 minutes, which isn't much different from 8 points in 22 minutes. Nocioni is a much better rebounder as well.
> 
> Apples and oranges? They are small forwards, they are known for their defense, they are known for being a little crazy, they are known for their fire and passion for the game, they are both known for getting into peoples heads. That's apples and oranges? More like oranges and oranges. Talk about opinions not based in reality.


I would argue that just as important as Artest's "smash mouth" style and quantifiably-better-than-Noce's defense are the numbers he puts up on the other side of the court. You can prorate minutes and all that other stuff, but Ron is basically poised to become a 25-6-4 guy for the next six to eight years. Nocioni isn't anywhere close to that. I mean, Artest isn't Bruce Bowen, for crying out loud. His star really took when he continued to play the same D he always did while taking his offense to a very, very high level.

So that's my "apples and oranges" problem. Artest is simply a totally different caliber of player than Nocioni, regardless of their shared position, temperament, shoe size, or any other coincidences.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Same could be said about Curry.


Except Curry's +/- isn't near the bottom of the league, and he brings a quantifiable, very desirable skill -- high-efficiency post scoring -- to the table that Nocioni simply does not.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

El Chapu said:


> Wrong.


Oh, sure, I guess Nocioni can play against some 4s out there. But Noce guarding twos? Ace was telling everyone all summer long that the very idea was a joke, and man, he couldn't have been more right.




> Wrong.


Deng should be playing 36-38 minutes a night sooner rather than later. Except for the games where Nocioni sees a little stint at the 4, that leaves him 10-12 minutes a game. 




> Wrong. It wont be problematic at all, since you are going to go through highs and lows, injuries, personal problems and there are enough minutes for both of them. The fact that they bring different things to the table also gives more opportunities to Skiles to work his "magic". And they can also share the court from time to time. So it wont be a problem. They both will be on their sophomore season.
> Correct. Deng's upside is higher than that of Nocioni.


Well, Skiles certainly was loathe to play them side-by-side this year. Barring a change in that mindset, and given your admission and the team's belief that Deng is the player more worthy of development, I'm not sure where that leaves your guy.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> Of course. I don't think he's a good defender, though, and his plus-minus doesn't either. So basically the "Nocioni is a great defender" argument boils down to "I don't care about statistics, and my opinion holds more water than yours." Cool!


Are you reading the same stats that suggest that Curry is a huge minus? Other notables include: Okafor, J-Rich, Murphy, K-Mart, Yao Ming, Caron Butler, Redd. Would the Rockets trade Ming given that he is a minus for them? Or are they going to stick with him because he is 7'5?

And why people hate Marbury when his stats are pretty good? Or Francis? Im sure you are a huge Ricky Davis fan!


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> I would argue that just as important as Artest's "smash mouth" style and quantifiably-better-than-Noce's defense are the numbers he puts up on the other side of the court. You can prorate minutes and all that other stuff, but Ron is basically poised to become a 25-6-4 guy for the next six to eight years. Nocioni isn't anywhere close to that. I mean, Artest isn't Bruce Bowen, for crying out loud. His star really took when he continued to play the same D he always did while taking his offense to a very, very high level.


I disagree with this, I know Pacers fans that had Artest as the best player on the team back when he was putting up 18 per game. It wasn't because of his offensive abilities, it's because of his defense, and all of the intangibles he brings. He only 25 points for 7 games this season. 7 games is too small of a sample size. 



ScottMay said:


> So that's my "apples and oranges" problem. Artest is simply a totally different caliber of player than Nocioni, regardless of their shared position, temperament, shoe size, or any other coincidences.


Artest is a better player, nobody said he wasn't. I said poor man's Artest, because Nocioni brings the same style of play. You can keep disregarding the fact that they play the same way by fabricating straw man arguments, but I'm strictly talking style of play. When two players play the same style and bring the same type of skills, you can obviously call them similar players even if one player is a lot better than the other.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> Oh, sure, I guess Nocioni can play against some 4s out there. But Noce guarding twos? Ace was telling everyone all summer long that the very idea was a joke, and man, he couldn't have been more right.
> 
> Deng should be playing 36-38 minutes a night sooner rather than later. Except for the games where Nocioni sees a little stint at the 4, that leaves him 10-12 minutes a game.
> 
> Well, Skiles certainly was loathe to play them side-by-side this year. Barring a change in that mindset, and given your admission and the team's belief that Deng is the player more worthy of development, I'm not sure where that leaves your guy.


Bottomline: Nocioni wont be a 10 MPG guy in Chicago. Ever.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> Except Curry's +/- isn't near the bottom of the league, and he brings a quantifiable, very desirable skill -- high-efficiency post scoring -- to the table that Nocioni simply does not.


Thats only useful during 1/4 of the game: the first quarter.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

El Chapu said:


> Bottomline: Nocioni wont be a 10 MPG guy in Chicago. Ever.


Bottom line: that's bad news for people who want the Bulls to win as many games as possible.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> Ron didn't get votes because he played for a godawful team. I figure since the Bulls are now a good team, and because defense is their calling card, if Noce is so important to the cause, it'll be recognized by those who see it closer and know it better than any of us do.
> 
> I am willing to overlook things like Curry's Roland Rating and Hinrich or Duhon's shooting percentage because it's pretty easy for me to see the other positives they bring. I see no such positives with Nocioni. I stand by my observation that he's not that great a defensive player (at the very least, he's nowhere near as versatile as his suporters would have you believe). His offensive skills are shaky at best. And that's before you get to all the theatrics.
> 
> ...


I can't believe I'm even arguing this. Have I ever said (in 100% seriousness) that Noch is the reason why our defense is improved? The same guy whose leading us to victories with heart/hustle and an eventual NBA championship? C'mon. I understand the need for you to paint a broad brush considering the landslide of opinion disagreeing with you on this thread, but please don't lump me into the 'uniformed homer' OP because I appreciate when a rookie player fills his role on a winning team.

Would I prefer to give minutes to Deng over Noch? Of course. Do I expect Noch to get any defensive team votes? Probably not, he's a rook. Should I give any credence to Roland Ratings as gospel for how a player performs on a team? No, look at Eddy Curry for instance. He's the one guy who would be hardest to replace though the cold stats don't say so. Stats are always, always open for interpretation.

I started the Nocioni Appreciation Thread, with two parts humor and one part truth in mind. I love a guy who gives effort, role players who fill roles, and players who overachieve consideringexpectations (we've seen the opposite too many times recently). I really don't understand why some fans would root against their own players, like it seems like some of us are doing. Not pointing fingers or anything, but the Bulls are winning and I'm willing to accept the fact that Noch is playing a role in it.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> Bottom line: that's bad news for people who want the Bulls to win as many games as possible.


Yes, like this season. How many ping-pong balls are the Bulls getting this year? Imagine if Nocioni were elsewhere, we would be talking #1 seed!!


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> Bottom line: that's bad news for people who want the Bulls to win as many games as possible.


Shouldn't we leave that for the people who, in your words, see it closer and know better than any of us do? The fact that those people who are obviously superior to us (according to you) choose to play Nocioni 20+ minutes per game should give you your answer. 

I don't know what else you want out of an 8th man. A bruiser, a guy who can get into peoples heads, play above average defense, decent offense and provide a ton of energy, is a blessing to have as an 8th man. Bottom line.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I disagree with this, I know Pacers fans that had Artest as the best player on the team back when he was putting up 18 per game. It wasn't because of his offensive abilities, it's because of his defense, and all of the intangibles he brings. He only 25 points for 7 games this season. 7 games is too small of a sample size.
> 
> 
> 
> Artest is a better player, nobody said he wasn't. I said poor man's Artest, because Nocioni brings the same style of play. You can keep disregarding the fact that they play the same way by fabricating straw man arguments, but I'm strictly talking style of play. When two players play the same style and bring the same type of skills, you can obviously call them similar players even if one player is a lot better than the other.


We'll just agree to disagree, I guess. Sample size or no sample size, Artest is going to be a highly effective two-way player for years to come. At some point a comparison of style needs to intersect with where you measure results, and Artest gets results that Nocioni simply has no hope of achieving.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> We'll just agree to disagree, I guess. Sample size or no sample size, Artest is going to be a highly effective two-way player for years to come. At some point a comparison of style needs to intersect with where you measure results, and Artest gets results that Nocioni simply has no hope of achieving.


And what has Artest exactly achieved during his carrer?


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

superdave said:


> I started the Nocioni Appreciation Thread, with two parts humor and one part truth in mind. I love a guy who gives effort, role players who fill roles, and players who overachieve consideringexpectations (we've seen the opposite too many times recently). I really don't understand why some fans would root against their own players, like it seems like some of us are doing. Not pointing fingers or anything, but the Bulls are winning and I'm willing to accept the fact that Noch is playing a role in it.


That's all fine and perfectly understandable. But you honestly don't see how Noce's theatrics could bring us unwanted attention from the officials and give our opponents just that little added push to want to kick our teeth in?

Again, my eyes aren't telling me it's effective. The numbers aren't telling me it's effective. I want players who leave their heart and soul on the floor, but not at any cost. The winning is the thing.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

El Chapu said:


> And what has Artest exactly achieved during his carrer?


A hell of a lot more than Nocioni has.

[Insert threadbare Olympic gold medal retort here.]


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

El Chapu said:


> And what has Artest exactly achieved during his career?


you mean besides the 2003/2004 DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR???


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

mizenkay said:


> you mean besides the 2003/2004 DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR???


Yes. Or does he play to win individual awards?


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I don't know what else you want out of an 8th man. A bruiser, a guy who can get into peoples heads, play above average defense, decent offense and provide a ton of energy, is a blessing to have as an 8th man. Bottom line.


I completely agree. And an 8th man in a tight playoff rotation should see, what, about 10 minutes per game? :biggrin: 

I think you'll agree that you DON'T want your 8th man to singlehandedly give your team a reputation for being dirty, or be the subject of a memo in the official's pregame briefing, or be a lightning rod for a controversy involving other head coaches, etc.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> A hell of a lot more than Nocioni has.
> 
> [Insert threadbare Olympic gold medal retort here.]


You know that you dont make sense, right? First you say Nocioni has no skills, and then you try to make comparisons to Artest. While we are on it, why dont we compare Shaq's numbers with those of Curry? 

Reminder: Nocioni has around 75 NBA games under his belt.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> I think you'll agree that you DON'T want your 8th man to singlehandedly give your team a reputation for being dirty, or be the subject of a memo in the official's pregame briefing, or be a lightning rod for a controversy involving other head coaches, etc.


I rather have that than a center giving your team a reputation of being soft inside with lack of rebounding skills. Its sad when your 8th man can intimidate your opponent even more than your 4th year, 7'0, 285lbs center.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

El Chapu said:


> Yes. Or does he play to win individual awards?


Yeah, the DPOY is normally associated with selfish, non-team-oriented goals. 



> First you say Nocioni has no skills, and then you try to make comparisons to Artest.


Your beef on that front is with SirPatchwork. I agree that comparing Artest and Nocioni is laughable.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> Yeah, the DPOY is normally associated with selfish, non-team-oriented goals.


Individual awards goes to one persona, not the team. Selfish or not, the award goes to him and not the Pacers. Again, has Artest ever won anything? At St Johns? NBA level? 
NO.
Talking about selfishness, are you talking about that same thing that cost the Pacers many wins? And a shot at an NBA championship? Thats what Artest has accomplished this season for them!! Good riddance!

BTW, Rodman and all those guys you mention have something in common, other than their "dirtiness": they have NBA championship rings.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> I think you'll agree that you DON'T want your 8th man to singlehandedly give your team a reputation for being dirty, or be the subject of a memo in the official's pregame briefing, or be a lightning rod for a controversy involving other head coaches, etc.


But how do we know that any of this is happening with regards to Noc? Other players don't like him - doesn't make him dirty. His scrum with Wade and Haslem was the only extra-curricular event he's been a part of that I can remember. 

You compare him to Laimbeer and Rodman, but I just don't think he fits that mold. Those guys were dirty, and were proud of it, and were not afraid to physically harm an opponent in order to gain a competitive advantage. I don't see any of those things in Noc. He's not out for blood, he's out to cause as much trouble to his defensive assignment as possible within the rules. If that makes him a thug, I wouldn't mind having more "thugs" on the team I support.

edit: and you KNOW, that if Laimbeer or Rodman had been pushed over by Haslem, an all-out, no-holds-barred brawl would have followed. Noc's decision to walk away and admit wrongdoing showed me that his style isn't malicious, even if he made a bone-headed and unfortunate play.

And what are these theatrics? Drawing charges? It's nice to have someone on the team who can do that for a change, too. He flops sometimes, big deal. Fisher and Vlade have made themselves extra millions by knowing how and when to flop. Noc plays defense so close to his man that he almost forces the guy to use a shoulder or an elbow to create space. Is that dirty? I don't think so.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> I completely agree. And an 8th man in a tight playoff rotation should see, what, about 10 minutes per game? :biggrin:


Nocioni plays the 8th most minutes, and plays 22 minutes per game. We're a deep team like that. I'm delighted that we have a guy like Nocioni as our 8th man playing 22 minutes, that's great depth.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Just In: More proof on what a character-guy Van Gumby is -

*Reserve forward Qyntel Woods has impressed coach Stan Van Gundy with his play in practice and may yet find a home on the team's playoff roster.*

http://www.sportsline.com/nba/story/8359171


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Artest got the same reaction from other players in his first season that Noc is getting now.

And as much as other coaches and players seem to deride him, most of their GM's would love to have him.

He can score. He can defend. He's not a locker-room or anywhere else disruption.


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## El Chapu (Oct 23, 2004)

All I have to say ( :biggrin: ) is that I cant understand how a Bulls fan can hate Nocioni. Im not saying you must love the guy or go :worship: on him. But I find it hard to believe.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

superdave said:


> PCLoad, I know you were never on the bandwagon and in reality its only me and Chapu on it.


I'm not ashamed to be on it. 

I like Nocioni and I really don't see all the fuss. He's not a goon, he's not a thug and he's not a no-talent basketball player.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

fl_flash said:


> I've got to go with SuperDave here. I'm not understanding the Nocioni is a goon position or that he has no skills. If he was a no-skilled goon, he wouldn't be in the league and he wouldn't be a decent contributor to a playoff-bound team. Dalibor Bagaric was a no-skill goon.
> 
> As for his irritating style of play, I can only say this: Whenever I used to coach, I would always tell my players - nobody can get inside your head. You let them inside. Anybody whose played the game for any length of time, be it orgainized ball or playground ball, has come across that guy (or gal!) who is just plain irritating. Always in your face. Always chasing you around. Grabbing, holding, maybe nudging you a bit too hard. It's that players choice to play that way. How you respond to that type of play is entirely your own choice. Sure, Nocioni is an irritating player. He's constantly hounding whomever he's assigned to. He's a big pain in the ***. He doesn't make Al Harrington or Lebron James react to him. Harrington and James (and anybody else) choose to respond to his style of play.
> 
> ...


Reggie Miller is one damn annoying irritant. How about those leg kicks? How about the whining? Just another in the long line of no-skilled goons. :biggrin:


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

El Chapu said:


> To add more to my point, a basketball player with no skills doesnt win an MVP award in the ACB league, europe's toughest league with talents such as Bodiroga, Scola, Macijauskas, to name some.
> 
> And even if someone like Nocioni the basketball player or not, Im sure there are 16 NBA playoffs team that would love to have him on their roster.


Thats right, Bowen seems to fit the mold we're discussing and I'll bet every playoff team would be willing to add him to the roster.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

bullet said:


> :greatjob:
> 
> Exactly. He definitely ain't our best player. He ain't even our 5th(+) best player. But thats the thing about us this year. We are a team with no Current superstar , and totally succeed based on Defense. He has a big part in the attitude change with our Bulls , we became Bullies , and he's our top man in that. You cannot dislike Noc and like a buster like crazy Ron simply cause Artest has also good offensive skills. He's still a dirty mofo (nontheless , crazy or not , I'd welcome him back on our side) who bangs , scratches , pushes and does anything BB rules will allow him (and more in Rons Case) . I do not think we'd look the same without Chapu. I think we would'nt be as good.


Very good point and Artest's offense certainly wasn't a thing of beauty early in his career.

All we saw was love for old Ronnie boy when he was traded. And he was certifiably nuts. 

Go figure.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

As far as the real topic of the thread goes, it's understandable for Van Gundy to be upset. The Heat rely on two guys a whole lot, so the coach is going to protect those guys. This doesn't mean he is right, those two guys are favored by officials because of their star status. We have to do whatever it takes to even those odds against us. If this means using several guys and giving hard fouls, so be it. I'm not a fan of hard fouls and bruising, but it rivals superstar treatment for teams that don't have a superstar, so it evens the playing field.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> As far as the real topic of the thread goes, it's understandable for Van Gundy to be upset. The Heat rely on two guys a whole lot, so the coach is going to protect those guys. This doesn't mean he is right, those two guys are favored by officials because of their star status. We have to do whatever it takes to even those odds against us. If this means using several guys and giving hard fouls, so be it. I'm not a fan of hard fouls and bruising, but it rivals superstar treatment for teams that don't have a superstar, so it evens the playing field.


Any coach is going to be concerned watching their meal ticket take a hard one. I agree, very understandable. 


Demeaning role players vs. stars
watching your own role player take a cheap shot
watching your fan go for a repeat of Detroit
challenging the opposing player to fight your backup center
All while you're entertaining the thought of putting dog fighting, animal abusing Qyntel Woods on the playoff roster is well, --- PRICELESS.

And this thread is about Nocioni! :laugh: 

Next time, Van Gumby ought to follow the example of his bro Jeff Van Gumby --- *stick to ankle biting*.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Mr. T said:


> Demeaning role players vs. stars
> watching your own role player take a cheap shot
> watching your fan go for a repeat of Detroit
> challenging the opposing player to fight your backup center
> All while you're entertaining the thought of putting dog fighting, animal abusing Qyntel Woods on the playoff roster is well, --- PRICELESS.


I agree. I'm glad Skiles acknowledged it, but kind of shrugged it off. Get that dirt of your shoulder, you know.


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## Bullsmaniac (Jun 17, 2002)

Add me in to the Noc backers, SVG is a bumbling fool side.

I always liked the way Artest used to get to player's (he's guarding) heads. His rotweiller defense was what made that team of Brand, Miller JC, AJ Guyton entertaining to watch even though they lost alot of games. Noce is our new Artest minus the camera smashing, shorts stripping, practice equipment tossing. He plays hard nosed defense, if the "stars" of this league who have gotten so spoiled because of all their special treatment don't like it and cries..TOO EFFIN BAD!!! Would you rather have Jalen back and hear him whine to the officials after every play instead of playing any defense???This is professional basketball not a game of HORSE!! One of Kirk's best games this season was when he irritated the hell out Ray Allen when they played in Seattle. This has been what has been missing after Artest left. A player that does not care who his opponent is but plays hard regardless of who he's facing. European players tend to play that way more than American players. Maybe it's part of the reason they won the gold this summer, it's beacuse they played team ball, had no super egos to deal with and played hard against anybody..LeBron, AI whoever!!!


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

<pre>
* MPG FG% FT% TRB APG SPG BPG PPG* 
*Noc* 22.6 .401 .757 4.60 1.4 .47 .38 7.9 
*Ron* 31.1 .407 .674 4.30 2.8 1.65 .54 12.0
</pre>

This appears to be an argument with little or no merit. I took the liberty of comparing Crazy Ron's rookie stats with those of our "hockey style goon". I always liked Ron on the Bull, but always cringed when he tried to create offense his rookie campaign. It always looked like his body was going three directions at once. I see the same type of phenomenon in Nocioni. Any claim that Ron-Ron was more than a minimally effective offensive player when he arrived in the league is categorically false, and should be labelled as such. When you also acknowledge the fact that Noc plays roughly 2/3 the minutes Ron did, the differences become even smaller.

As for the argument that we don't want to incense other players to make them gun harder for us..... that's ridiculous. If they're bringing less than full effort, they deserve the L. Fact is, nothing pisses other teams off more than the mere fact of us beating them. We used to have a team in town here that would get EVERYBODY'S "A" game and would still humiliate them more than not. I think it's silly to worry about whether some other team is going to beat us because Nocioni annoyed them.

Here's me sticking my thumb to my nose, wiggling my fingers, and making a raspberry noise to people who are worried about this being a factor.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Wynn said:


> As for the argument that we don't want to incense other players to make them gun harder for us..... that's ridiculous. If they're bringing less than full effort, they deserve the L. Fact is, nothing pisses other teams off more than the mere fact of us beating them. We used to have a team in town here that would get EVERYBODY'S "A" game and would still humiliate them more than not. I think it's silly to worry about whether some other team is going to beat us because Nocioni annoyed them.
> Here's me sticking my thumb to my nose, wiggling my fingers, and making a raspberry noise to people who are worried about this being a factor.


:clap: 

*Wynn!* is a genious and a very beautiful (if very large and slightly hairy) man


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Wynn said:


> Any claim that Ron-Ron was more than a minimally effective offensive player when he arrived in the league is categorically false, and should be labelled as such. When you also acknowledge the fact that Noc plays roughly 2/3 the minutes Ron did, the differences become even smaller.


This is all true but Artest was a lot younger as a rookie than Noc.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)




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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)




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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

Mr. T said:


>


EXCELLENT!!! 




























































_...and Noc isn't even in my 10 favorites on the Bull!_


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Wynn said:


> <pre>
> * MPG FG% FT% TRB APG SPG BPG PPG*
> *Noc* 22.6 .401 .757 4.60 1.4 .47 .38 7.9
> *Ron* 31.1 .407 .674 4.30 2.8 1.65 .54 12.0
> ...


I'm confused. Some people want to compare stats, some people insist we're just talking about "style." 

Either way, I don't see "no merit" in the fact that Ron Artest had better stats and was a better offensive and defensive player when he entered the league at 19 compared to a 25-year-old grizzled "rookie" who was a much-ballyhooed European league MVP and glue guy on the greatest Olympic team ever.

You can blithely dismiss the possibility that Nocioni's hack jobs provide other teams with bulletin-board fodder. That's fine -- not all of our opponents have that vengeful Michael Jordan sort of mentality. But you didn't address what I think is a much, much bigger problem with Nocioni -- the fact that, especially after the Wade incident, the officials are undoubtedly having a "watch out for / how do we want to handle Nocioni" discussion before they ref our games. Is it really that hard to see/admit how this MIGHT be a problem for the Bulls, especially when their bread-and-butter defenders are so young to begin with? 

I wouldn't mind the flopping, the hacking, the shoving, the pushing, the open palms/"whadIdo?" face, etc., if they got results. It's pretty undeniable, though, that most games they don't, and I'm fairly certain our team would play exactly the same tough brand of defense if he'd never been added to the roster.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

The fact that a lot of people , even on this the Bulls board, saying Noce is some dirty player that is dangerous is just ludacris. Noce, Artest, Bowen, these are the type of guys the league has been missing since the 90's when basketball was great, in fact I think it used to be more common for almost every player to be more physical defensivily. Obviously the hand check rule has a lot to do with it but I think its also the players. They are just not built like they used to be.

At any points in the early to mid-ninties can you imagine anything being made of this foul. I remember plenty of fouls that the Bulls committed that were really dangerous, (see almost any Knicks series) and reckless. And let's not even talk about the original Bad Boys.

Noce was obviously not trying to hurt him, seriously we are talking about a light push after a foul.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

Well, I don't think SVG cares much about what people would think. I'm sure everybody in the whole wide world thinks that what SVG did wasn't the smartest thing (publicity wise) to do. But SVG probably wanted to support his team, and what better way than to have everyone get pissed off at you while you support your own team? 

Besides, I think it's understandable since if Wade did get seriously injured, that'd be a few games without both Shaq and Wade, and everyone knows how the Heat will do without one of those two guys. 

When all is said and done, I think both teams, and their respective fans, should stop beefing. Nocioni did a classless act, but became real diplomatic afterwards, and I admire that. It isn't bad for the game to get physical at times, and I do believe in the things Larry Bird says. The league is too harsh on physical play these days, I think we should just let the boys play. As a Heat fan, I think Haslem could've done a better job in protecting his teammate, and I think he should apologize. 

It's all basketball baby, it's all in the game, no beef outside the court.


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## badfish (Feb 4, 2003)

gian said:


> Well, I don't think SVG cares much about what people would think. I'm sure everybody in the whole wide world thinks that what SVG did wasn't the smartest thing (publicity wise) to do. But SVG probably wanted to support his team, and what better way than to have everyone get pissed off at you while you support your own team?
> 
> Besides, I think it's understandable since if Wade did get seriously injured, that'd be a few games without both Shaq and Wade, and everyone knows how the Heat will do without one of those two guys.
> 
> ...



Well said.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I think Nocioni deserves more than 10 minutes per game, like some people said in this thread. The guy knows how to play basketball.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I think Nocioni deserves more than 10 minutes per game, like some people said in this thread. The guy knows how to play basketball.


Two years from now, if Deng has rounded into the player he ought to become, and Curry and Chandler are near-max players producing as they ought to, what does that leave Nocioni? On average, a chunk of 24 mpg between the three and four. Of course, that's only on average, and the big lesson to take away from this year is that you can never have too much depth.

But more games like this, and it's going to be real hard for the Bulls to keep Nocioni when his deal's up.

Now go out there and enjoy this playoff win! That has to beat looking for old threads to bump with a 'nyah nyah nyah,' no?


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## thegza (Feb 18, 2003)

I'm not the least 'bit concerned about how much attention Nocioni is going to get when his deal is up, but I do know that he's a Chicago Bull and that he's working his arse off.

I feel blessed being able to watch this kid play for us. He's got so much fire inside, and he leaves it all on the court. So much hustle and will to win that it's a shame he doesn't get more respect for it around the league. He does whatever it takes to win, and although he doesn't always do it pretty and fancy, some other tough nose players have been embraced by this league, while he isn't.

Noc proved to all of us that in the clutch, he can, and will be counted on. Respect, brotha!


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> Now go out there and enjoy this playoff win! That has to beat looking for old threads to bump with a 'nyah nyah nyah,' no?


I don't search for them, I note them when they happen if I think it's out of line, and bump them when I feel it's appropriate.


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