# Wade: Where are the people that said he is the best SG in the league



## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

Wade, leader of the Heat and ten straight losses on an eastern conference team.

Why is Wade getting a free ride?
any other "star" would be getting so much **** right now.


Kobe, KG, Duncan, Dirk, Lebron... have any of these players had ten straight losses, would they allow their team to?

Gilbert Arenas wasn't that off after all


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

*Re: d WadeWhere are the people that said is the best SG in the league*

he is still injured and half his team is injured as well.


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## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: d WadeWhere are the people that said is the best SG in the league*

Heat just sucks, they have zero perimeter threat with Kapono gone ,Mourning's loss was another blow and Shaq is much more useless now. Two of their most recent additions are both considered "cancers" by their former employers. I think Wade is not 100% too.


The team looks like its built for a rebuilding plan but their payroll reflects otherwise.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

*Re: d WadeWhere are the people that said is the best SG in the league*

He's coming back from injury on a terrible team led by a coach that doesn't want the job any more.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

*Re: d WadeWhere are the people that said is the best SG in the league*

Here.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

*Re: d WadeWhere are the people that said is the best SG in the league*

Wade isn't shooting 44% is he?


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

*Re: d WadeWhere are the people that said is the best SG in the league*

*Because only one player out of those others that you mentioned has a Finals MVP.*


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## TakaraJinRoh (Nov 27, 2007)

*Re: d WadeWhere are the people that said is the best SG in the league*

^But he's also shooting a career worst 15% beyond the arc and turning the ball over 4.6 per contest....another career low.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

A really good question afterall the East does suck. The best guard in the league should be good for a few wins


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Forget best SG in the league. Where are the people who said he was the next Michael Jordan?

Looking at you, ESPN.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

KennethTo said:


> Wade, leader of the Heat and ten straight losses on an eastern conference team.
> 
> Why is Wade getting a free ride?
> any other "star" would be getting so much **** right now.
> ...



kobe's team lost 17 of his last 19 games of the '05 season. is that any better than losing 10 straight

wade's clearly not playing at the same level he has in the past, and injuries are obviously a factor in his own play.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Wade is coming off two operations. I take it many of you haven't had serious operations. And the effect it has on your body, and mind. It' take a full year to recover if not more. A prime example is Tony Allen from the Celtics. Look at him play basketball these days. He misses wide open lay ups time from time, because he's not sure his leg will hold up if he goes hard. If any of you watched Wade pre-injury you will be able to see his Health isn't even close to 100 percent.

Wade before the injuries.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/f04rmI6sgPo&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/f04rmI6sgPo&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>


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## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

kflo said:


> kobe's team lost 17 of his last 19 games of the '05 season. is that any better than losing 10 straight with wade.
> 
> wade's clearly not playing at the same level he has in the past, and injuries are obviously a factor in his own play.


kobe>wade

wade doesnt deserve to be in the same sentence as kobe.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

Pain5155 said:


> kobe>wade
> 
> wade doesnt deserve to be in the same sentence as kobe.


I don't know. Someone wake me up when Kobe is the best player on a team that wins a ring. Until this happens - Wade deserves a lot.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

andalusian said:


> I don't know. Someone wake me up when Kobe is the best player on a team that wins a ring. Until this happens - Wade deserves a lot.


Good point. You could make the case the year the Heat won the chip, that Wade was on par with Kobe, and any other wing player in the game that year. This year it's obvious though he's no where close to the player he was that season. I believe next season will be a tale tale sign if Wade will ever recover to his former abilities.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Last year I would've taken Wade over Kobe. This year I wouldn't, but Wade probably won't be judgable until next season, after such a major injury. And we're tanking, unofficially. But saying things like "Wade doesn't belong in the same sentence as Kobe" is utterly asinine.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

Pain5155 said:


> kobe>wade
> 
> wade doesnt deserve to be in the same sentence as kobe.


He does, otherwise it would be Kobe>>>>>>>>>>>Wade.
Obviously this Wade isn't the same as last years, he has just come from a huge injury, I'd love to see one of you try to do that and put up the same numbers as when he was finals MVP.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i don't know why some folks try to imply that he's taken a step down or that garnett has improved or any of that nonsense. the biggest problem for wade, imo, is obviously his injuries. but if they're taken out of the equation (big if, granted) he's as good as he's ever been, imo. so the team's lost a million games this year- i wouldn't say that's at all a reflection on him. other things have changed. one man teams don't fly in pro sports, no matter how incredible they are.

so he's not kobe or michael or lebron- fine. but not everyone said that he was. and even if they did, kobe, michael and lebron were never put in the position dwyane's been put in this year. you have to compare apples to apples. i think wade's on a far worse team than any of them have ever been on, simple as that imo. he may be a worse player when he comes out of this, don't get me wrong, but that'll just be the residue of having suffered on a poor team for however long it will have been.

don't kick a man when he's down- especially when it's not really him who's down. imo, there are not many players who've _ever_ played this game who could salvage the wreck in miami right now.

peace


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## clien (Jun 2, 2005)

dudes. Wade is going to be plagued w/ injuries his entire career. The style of ball that he plays and is best at won't allow him to be a player w/ longevity in the NBA...healthy or not he spends half the game on the ground; from diving in the lane and falling over for the most part.


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## DaRizzle (May 22, 2007)

Ballocks has the greatest avatar ever


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Jeez, its not like Wade's fallen off the map like Vince Carter in his final season with the Raptors (or even this year?). Dwyane is still putting up:

24.1 points
4.1 rebounds
6.8 assists
2.0 steals
0.8 blocks
37.9 minutes

shooting 47% from the field, 15% from three (never part of his game) but a career low 73% from the line. These are roughly similar numbers to his breakout second season - and he's still playing at a high level. 

He is coming off 2 major surgeries in the offseason as we all know, and is only 28 games back from them. He has more responsibility this year than ever in making us win games, as noone else is capable of scoring more than 13-14 points a game. He has the ball in his hands basically all the time, and is forced to create for EVERYONE on this team. High turnovers will happen when your pretty much playing 1 on 5. His handle has become a tad loose though, which he will fix.

If you have been watching Wade this season - hes much more reliant on his jumper than ever before. His midrange shot, or even the long ball just inside three point range, is money. Hes hitting it more consistently this year than I can remember, but hes not scoring anywhere near as much in the paint. Part of this has to do with Shaqs inefficent play and the defenses ability to go single coverage on Shaq, forcing doubles and even triples on Wade. I think Wade will be back dunking and attacking the paint in regularity next season.

I have no doubt that Wade will be back putting up his 27 a game (or more), whether its this season or next season. He hasnt even entered his prime years yet - there's plenty of time for him to regain the magic and athleticism that has been missing a bit this year. 

I still think hes the best SG in the league.


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

KennethTo said:


> Wade, leader of the Heat and ten straight losses on an eastern conference team.
> 
> Why is Wade getting a free ride?
> any other "star" would be getting so much **** right now.
> ...


Get back to me when the players mentioned above (not named Duncan) land a Finals MVP after singlehandedly winning a title!

Kobe - He rode the baddest man on the planet (at the time) to 3 rings and singlehandedly blew their shot at a 4th!

Bron - The only reason he was in the finals last year is because Wade entered last years playoffs at 50% on one leg and with one arm!

Dirk - Wade forced this Pansy to his knees and told him to kiss the ring!

K.G. - I love this dude but what has he ever won?

Arenas - Wade absolutely owns hibachi! Look at the record!


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## kzero (Apr 30, 2006)

Well, Kobe took a team with Smush Parker to the playoffs last year. Your turn, Wade  Don't forget to throw him into the volcano when you get there, he's evil. He makes things disappear, like team chemistry. To Mordor!


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## HeaVINsent15 (Jul 13, 2007)

Wade is an all-star but saying hes the best guard in the east is BS.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

HeaVINsent15 said:


> Wade is an all-star but saying hes the best guard in the east is BS.


Who is better in the East ?


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Get back to me when the players mentioned above (not named Duncan) land a Finals MVP *after singlehandedly winning a title*!


:lol:


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> :lol:


Shaq was garbage in the finals...

Next!


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Shaq was garbage in the finals...
> 
> Next!


Shaq is the reason Wade could go crazy. He drew the attention making it easier for him. 

*Ahem that was also the year of the refs gambling.

ESPN shoving Wade on the TV gives people a warped perception Kobe is by far better than him. 
Have people forgot the 80+ points he dropped on Toronto? 
He's the kind of player to win games by himself.


Said it before and I'll say it again he should've been MVP a few years ago.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Wade is coming off two operations. I take it many of you haven't had serious operations. And the effect it has on your body, and mind. It' take a full year to recover if not more. A prime example is Tony Allen from the Celtics. Look at him play basketball these days. He misses wide open lay ups time from time, because he's not sure his leg will hold up if he goes hard. If any of you watched Wade pre-injury you will be able to see his Health isn't even close to 100 percent.
> 
> Wade before the injuries.
> 
> <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/f04rmI6sgPo&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/f04rmI6sgPo&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>


If it were Lebron coming back from an injury you wouldn't be nearly this understanding.


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## djuhari (Apr 30, 2006)

BDB said:


> Shaq is the reason Wade could go crazy. He drew the attention making it easier for him.


say wat u want, but that final was all wade.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Thats exactly the problem, Kobe IS the kinda guy who can win games by himself. And he knows it. Hence why the Lakers were stuck in mediocrity whilst he shot 40 attempts a game. Only this year once he refound confidence in his team have they started winning. See what happens when he reverts back to 44 shot Kobe? They only just scrape by the Sonics.

Dont try and say Wade didnt deserve that title or Finals MVP. Anyone who says otherwise is just a hater - and yes, Wade did lead us to the title that year - but he had contributions from Shaq, Zo, Haslem, Walker, Williams and Payton. All came up big at one point or another - but Wade undisputedly led that team.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Shaq was garbage in the finals...
> 
> Next!


OK. But was Shaq garbage against Chicago,New Jersey and Detroit?


Garbage doesnt give you 20,10 on 50% shooting.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

BG44 said:


> Dont try and say Wade didnt deserve that title or Finals MVP. Anyone who says otherwise is just a hater - and yes, Wade did lead us to the title that year - but he had contributions from Shaq, Zo, Haslem, Walker, Williams and Payton. All came up big at one point or another - but Wade undisputedly led that team.



This is a good post. Wade _led_ the team. Not Single handidly carried them, like that lunatic said.


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## djuhari (Apr 30, 2006)

in recent times i cant think of a finals MVP that meant so much to team as Wade did during that championship. yea single handedly may be exaggerated, but u get the point.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

I tend to look from the very start of the postseason. Wade was unstoppable in the Finals, and Riley took advantage of the fact that Wade was getting a lot of calls in his favor. Its all fine and dandy. 


However to imply he singlehandidly carried the Heat from the start of playoffs is another. Im just trying to differentiate them from those Heat fans who knows how to acknowledge team effort. 


But yeah I get your point.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

i hate wade but you gotta look at his teammates as well. shaq has retired somewhere, ricky davis is worse then ever, funny seeing as how miami fans were so pumped about him, blount is getting minutes, now you know the heat suck. who else?


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

You cant complete a dysfunctioned franchise without mentioning Smush.


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> You cant complete a dysfunctioned franchise without mentioning Smush.


:lol:


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Luke Jackson perhaps? Earl Barron? Alexander Johnson? yep, these guys are actually playing minutes. Chris Quinn has been our starting point guard, he was doing ok, but hes a 2nd/3rd stringer - not a starter. 

JWill has been sucking it up till recently, Shaqs been non-existant, Ricky Davis has been a complete and utter disaster, Blount has been woeful till recently, Zo got injured...

Pretty much the only reason to watch this team are Wade,Cook,Haslem and Wright - and 2 of those guys play just over 20 minutes a night.

Its a hard slog for a Heat fan at the minute.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

See even I forget Smush Parker and hes supposedly on my team...thats how bad hes been.


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

djuhari said:


> say wat u want, but that final was all wade.


He had a lot of help from corrupt refs he got an ubsurb number of calls.



BG44 said:


> Luke Jackson perhaps? *Earl Barron*? Alexander Johnson? yep, these guys are actually playing minutes. Chris Quinn has been our starting point guard, he was doing ok, but hes a 2nd/3rd stringer - not a starter.
> 
> JWill has been sucking it up till recently, Shaqs been non-existant, Ricky Davis has been a complete and utter disaster, Blount has been woeful till recently, Zo got injured...
> 
> ...


:worthy:LOL


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

I think in regards to Wade's final domination, you need only look at your location in your profile...


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

there's no reason to be all over wade because the heat suck. people should start questioning the shaq trade though(but they won't. apparently one title makes everything ok even wasting one of the best players in the league for a few years or more).

of course most of these people in here defending wade are the same ones that would be bashing lebron or kobe or tmac if they were in the same situation.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

Sahq trade was essential at that time. And it made perfect sense. Only thing that didnt make sense was the amount of years they agreed upon to lock O'Neal in Miami.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Im assuming the second contract was essentially agreed upon as soon as he got here. I dont think anyone would assume he would fall from grace this quickly. I dont think any of us regret that trade at all - We got our title, and we will be back for seconds in the next few years.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Shaq didn't even play the last 20 or whatever games.. I don't know how long exactly cause he disappeared even when he was playing..
Wade is still rehabbing and can't carry a team right now like he used to be able to.

*Wade's 2nd option is Mark Blount. Tell me one guy who's succeeded with Mark Blount as their 2nd option!!*

I never called Wade the best SG in the league, I always held him 2nd behind Kobe Bryant (who I considered the best player in the league until maybe this season). He's no doubt the best SG in the East though, anyone who wants to dispute that please name ANYONE better than him... And no, not Vince Carter :lol:

I wouldn't blame Lebron if he were in this situation either (I guess he is, to a lesser extent). Kobe though, while I wouldn't blame him I wouldn't give him a pass either, because of his history of not exactly "helping" his team.. Wade and Lebron are both superstar players that think team-first and are both great and willing passers - I don't hold them accountable.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

KennethTo said:


> Wade, leader of the Heat and ten straight losses on an eastern conference team.
> 
> Why is Wade getting a free ride?
> any other "star" would be getting so much **** right now.
> ...


Making excuses for him on this thread, duh:biggrin:


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Get back to me when the players mentioned above (not named Duncan) land a Finals MVP after singlehandedly winning a title!
> 
> *Kobe - He rode the baddest man on the planet (at the time) to 3 rings and singlehandedly blew their shot at a 4th!*
> 
> ...


:lol: This alone justifies your anger for Kobe and your homerisim for Wade. The Heat players made great contributions in that tittle run, Wade was the main man but it wasn't singlehanded just like the Lakers 3 to Shaq were not either. But seriously 16 free throws per finals game to Wade was just too fishy.


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

Finals MVP
Coming back from injuries
Can still drop 40 points and 10 assists with efficiency and game winners on bad wheels...

What was the point of this thread?

WAde is still a top 3 SG and arguably more clutch then anyone in the league and stil coming off injuries.

Are you trying to kick a man why he's down?

If you are, I can see the point of the thread, otherwise there is no point.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

My god people. Enough about the free throws. Wade draws a lot of fouls. Shaq draws a lot of fouls. Get into the Bonus early on in the quarter. Wade handles the ball a lot and gets fouled. Shoots 2. 

Its really not that hard to comprehend. Not to mention its finals, so refs call games tighter so as to keep in control. He averages double figure free throw attempts during the regular season anyway, i dont see how its so hard to get.

Kobe was a big part of those championships, no question, but he wasnt option 1 - that was the Diesel. Kobe was huge though. He did bone up that 4th ring attempt however, didnt he score like 15ppg in that Pistons series? Or am i imagining this?

EDIT: Yeah i was imagining the 15 point part, it was 22, but it was on 35% shooting...ouch...


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

NewAgeBaller said:


> *Wade's 2nd option is Mark Blount. Tell me one guy who's succeeded with Mark Blount as their 2nd option!!*


what are ricky davis and udonis haslem?


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

rocketeer said:


> what are ricky davis and udonis haslem?


Ricky is constantly pulled from the lineup cause his defence is non-existant and he thinks the shotclock expires at 23.
Haslem is a good player but not a scorer at all, he's a 3rd or 4th option at best.

Blount is averaging almost 10 FGA the last 3 games.

But more importantly, I was saying Blount is *Wade's 2nd option*. Wade must feed him the ball atleast 10 times a game (only for Blount to get blocked or fouled on an open shot)..


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

BDB said:


> Shaq is the reason Wade could go crazy. He drew the attention making it easier for him.
> 
> *Ahem that was also the year of the refs gambling.
> 
> ...


Tim Donaghy didn't ref a single game of the NBA Finals...


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

NewAgeBaller said:


> Ricky is constantly pulled from the lineup cause his defence is non-existant and he thinks the shotclock expires at 23.
> Haslem is a good player but not a scorer at all, he's a 3rd or 4th option at best.
> 
> Blount is averaging almost 10 FGA the last 3 games.
> ...


16 minutes per game and 5 shot attempts per game on the season. that's not a 2nd option. 7 guys average more shot attempts per game than him. he has had 3 games all season with 10 or more shot attempts.

he is not the 2nd option.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

rocketeer said:


> 16 minutes per game and 5 shot attempts per game on the season. that's not a 2nd option. 7 guys average more shot attempts per game than him. he has had 3 games all season with 10 or more shot attempts.
> 
> he is not the 2nd option.


Ok let me re-phrase that.

*Mark Blount is Wade's go-to-guy* ...


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

rocketeer said:


> 16 minutes per game and 5 shot attempts per game on the season. that's not a 2nd option. 7 guys average more shot attempts per game than him. he has had 3 games all season with 10 or more shot attempts.
> 
> he is not the 2nd option.


Unfortunately, it seems like he has been the psat few games with Shaq down and Ricky somewhere off doing whatever it is that he does.


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

Flash is the Future said:


> Tim Donaghy didn't ref a single game of the NBA Finals...


The NBA says he was the only one that gambled during that season. 
I'm not that naive...

I'm curious BG44 do you think Wade is better than Kobe as well?


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

BDB said:


> The NBA says he was the only one that gambled during that season.
> I'm not that naive...
> 
> I'm curious BG44 do you think Wade is better than Kobe as well?


He was the only one that gambled _on NBA games_. Other referees were seen inside Casinos playing poker and blackjack. There's a big difference.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Basketball is a team game. The Heat as a team are terrible. In the east there is more parity between the teams, and Wade has done what he can while not being 100 percent this season.


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

Flash is the Future said:


> He was the only one that gambled _on NBA games_. Other referees were seen inside Casinos playing poker and blackjack. There's a big difference.


You believe everything that's fed to you?
It makes a lot of sense for them to say he was the only one the NBA looked like a joke. Everything was being questioned at time even the finals.


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## sonicFLAME6 (Dec 19, 2006)

Flash is the Future said:


> He was the only one that gambled _on NBA games_. Other referees were seen inside Casinos playing poker and blackjack. There's a big difference.


The media is probably the least reliable source, no one knows who was or is gambling, these guys can be lying just as much telling the truth, it is funny though how quickly the gambling allegations came and left, do you really believe everything a television tells you?


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

BDB said:


> You believe everything that's fed to you?
> It makes a lot of sense for them to say he was the only one the NBA looked like a joke. Everything was being questioned at time even the finals.


One ref involved = Others could be = Conspiracy theory = WADE FREETHROWS LEIKOMGJ4CK!


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

BDB said:


> The NBA says he was the only one that gambled during that season.
> I'm not that naive...
> 
> I'm curious BG44 do you think Wade is better than Kobe as well?


Ive already stated that I believe Wade is better than Kobe. Not that there is a great deal of disparity between them, but id take Wade over Kobe on my team.

Again - enough of the NBA Finals crap. Wade has one of the best fakes in the league and guys bite on it all the time. Hes the master of contorting his body to get guys to fall into him and get the bump - hence why he gets so many And 1's. Refs consistently called the games tight, as is usual, and tightly referreed games play to the Heat's and Wade's strength - getting teams in foul trouble and shooting a lot of free throws.

If you dont wanna believe Wade is a top flight SG, then dont. Its not for me to tell u otherwise.


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

BG44 said:


> Ive already stated that I believe Wade is better than Kobe. Not that there is a great deal of disparity between them, but id take Wade over Kobe on my team.


Thank you for answering that's all I need to know.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

BDB said:


> You believe everything that's fed to you?
> It makes a lot of sense for them to say he was the only one the NBA looked like a joke. Everything was being questioned at time even the finals.


Don't you think they would've met the same fate as Donaghy. This isn't the type of thing the NBA can just cover up. The FBI was involved for crying out loud.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Kobe's career numbers:

11 year career, 29 years old

24.7 ppg
5.2 rpg
4.6 apg
2.1 spg
2.9 tpg
36.3 mpg

44% field goal
34% three pointers
84% free throw


Wade's career numbers:

5th year, 26 years old

23.8 ppg
4.9 rpg
6.4 apg
1.8 spg
3.8 tpg
37.6 mpg

48% from the field
24% for three
77% free throws

Not much difference between them - Wade is younger, Kobe is more established. Its an either/or preferance for me, and id prefer Wade. Not saying I think Kobe's **** or disrespecting his game. I just like the way Wade gets his team involved more - hes less selfish, although Kobe has improved outta sight on that this year.


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

Flash is the Future said:


> Don't you think they would've met the same fate as Donaghy. This isn't the type of thing the NBA can just cover up. The FBI was involved for crying out loud.


You have your opinion I have mine let's leave it at that.



BG44 said:


> Kobe's career numbers:
> 
> 11 year career, 29 years old
> 
> ...


You never answered has Wade every scored 80+ points in a game? 
In college? High school?
He's also plays in a tougher conference (unless you don't believe so) 
Both have played with Shaq Kobe's scoring went up w/o him.
You see where Wade has led Miami to *the worst record in the East.*
Everyone has there own opinion though.


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## Nightmute (Apr 12, 2007)

BG44 said:


> Kobe's career numbers:
> 
> 11 year career, 29 years old
> 
> ...


I have no reason to object to your preference for Wade, but the reason of being less selfish is not reason enough. When a loss is eminent Kobe takes the game over, he scores until he knows that the victory is his. It's his competitive spirit, his killer instinct, or whatever one wishes to call it; Kobe wont go home losing to an inferior or even superior team thinking well at least I got everyone involved. Passing to teammates who can't hit the broadside of a barn isn't going to win basketball games, as Wade has clearly demonstrated this season. Now if you want to compare basketball talents to demonstrate why Wade is the better basketball player be my guest, but don't use a vague and incredibly abstract concept such as being less selfish. Especially using it as the sole reason to justify the superiority of one player to another.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

BDB said:


> You have your opinion I have mine let's leave it at that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Traditionally, Wade has always put up better stats against the Western conference, as have Lebron and Kobe. :whoknows:


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

Flash is the Future said:


> Traditionally, Wade has always put up better stats against the Western conference, as have Lebron and Kobe. :whoknows:


Que? Miami has the worst record in th east if they had Kobe they'd have a few more wins.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Nightmute said:


> I have no reason to object to your preference for Wade, but the reason of being less selfish is not reason enough. When a loss is eminent Kobe takes the game over, he scores until he knows that the victory is his. It's his competitive spirit, his killer instinct, or whatever one wishes to call it; Kobe wont go home losing to an inferior or even superior team thinking well at least I got everyone involved. Passing to teammates who can't hit the broadside of a barn isn't going to win basketball games, as Wade has clearly demonstrated this season. Now if you want to compare basketball talents to demonstrate why Wade is the better basketball player be my guest, but don't use a vague and incredibly abstract concept such as being less selfish. *Especially using it as the sole reason to justify the superiority of one player to another.*


He said he _"preferred"_ Wade, and that he _"just likes the way Wade gets his team involved more"_. Not that Wade's a better player cause of Kobe's selfishness.



BDB said:


> You never answered has Wade every scored 80+ points in a game?
> In college? High school?


That's like the worst argument ever. Has Jordan ever dropped 80+ points? Kobe > Jordan?!?!!



BDB said:


> You see where Wade has led Miami to the worst record in the East.


Did Brandon Roy lead the Blazers to a 32-50 last season..?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Wade is still banged up. Let's talk later this season, or better yet, next year. I reserve bump duties. That's not to say I think he's better than Kobe, Lebron, or even Mcgrady, but he's no fluke, people are just pouncing at their first chance to down him...


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

_Dre_ said:


> Wade is still banged up. Let's talk later this season, or better yet, next year. I reserve bump duties. That's not to say I think he's better than Kobe, Lebron, or even Mcgrady, but he's no fluke, people are just pouncing at their first chance to down him...


This year I wouldn't consider him better than Lebron or Kobe, but TMac? The only thing he's done better than Wade this year is get hurt


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

NewAgeBaller said:


> Did Brandon Roy lead the Blazers to a 32-50 last season..?


Roy was a rookie last year and the team's offense was built around Zach Randolph. I imagine that their success when Randolph was out of the line is what lead to his trade at what seemed like 30 cents on the dollar - of course, if you compare NY and Portland this year, it seems as if the Portland management and coaching staff knew what they were doing.

The only time Roy had a chance to lead a NBA team was this year, and their current record is not too shabby for such a young team.

Having said that, I am pretty sure that I mentioned in this thread that I like Wade a lot and can not really point any fingers at him given his health and his supporting cast.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

wade is better than tmac, but not as good as lebron. he's almost as good as kobe though.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

Tragedy and afobisme summed it up the best.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

*[email protected] people "flip the script" on these boards so quickly, always ready to jump on the new kid on the block's coat tails.

Dude has been nothing short of greatness ever since he's been in the league.There are too many variables involved this season to judge D-Wade. *


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Nightmute said:


> I have no reason to object to your preference for Wade, but the reason of being less selfish is not reason enough. When a loss is eminent Kobe takes the game over, he scores until he knows that the victory is his. It's his competitive spirit, his killer instinct, or whatever one wishes to call it; Kobe wont go home losing to an inferior or even superior team thinking well at least I got everyone involved. Passing to teammates who can't hit the broadside of a barn isn't going to win basketball games, as Wade has clearly demonstrated this season. Now if you want to compare basketball talents to demonstrate why Wade is the better basketball player be my guest, but don't use a vague and incredibly abstract concept such as being less selfish. Especially using it as the sole reason to justify the superiority of one player to another.



I did give more reason rather then just saying 'hes less selfish', but ill give u a few more. You talk about Kobe's ability to nail it down in the 4th quarter, and get the hoop when its needed. Wade has the same abilities. Hes hit many clutch jumper, clutch free throws, hell even clutch steals. The 4th quarter at Heat games has always been known as Dwyane Wade time. This year, hes struggling a bit, but hes still capable of bursting out of this mini-slump at any minute. 

Hes so explosive going to the hoop, and the fact that he may be undersized (6'4") is irrelevant because he plays much bigger than he is. He scores more in the paint than just about any guard (Tony Parker might be close) and is absolutely a load for opposing guards to handle when he posts up on the block.

While he still has a ways to go with the long ball, but his jump shot is practically money. You cant give him space anymore, because he will rise and shoot over u - and more often then not, he'll nail it. Its really become a go to weapon for him.

He's the master of drawing fouls. Hes like Allen Iverson in that regard. He goes to the line about 10-12 times a game, which has to be close to tops in the league. He has a series of up-fakes and jukes he uses to get his man in the air, and i admire his ability to take the contact and finish so often.

As a Heat fan, I know im biased to take Wade over Kobe. Some may disagree, but when hes on his game - hes about as hard as anyone to stop in this league. The fact that he wont score 80 in a game is irrelevant. He doesnt need to score 80 - he can go for 30/5/9 with regularity...and any other year thats more then enough to secure a win (not this year however..)

I think hes a very underrated passer. He does some terrific lobs to Shaq, as well as always finding the open man. He's unselfish and a willing passer, its not a last option for him. He doesnt often force his offense, he waits till the game has settled down from the opening tip and wont start firing till half way through the quarter. At some point in the game, u know hes gonna get on a roll...its just how it is. I think this season can be compared to Kobe's 04-05 season with the Lakers, first year after Shaq. Kobe averaged 4.09 turnovers that year, and Wade is having more trouble adjusting to the less talent thats around him. 

To me - he sort of combines a lot of the best attributes of many star guards in this league. Iversons toughness, Kobe's competitveness and 4th quarter ability, Carter's athleticism and TMac's passing ability...with his own flair and game.

He may not be at his best this year, but the best is yet to come - Hes got many top years left if the injuries stay away.


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## blh5387 (Apr 6, 2006)

BDB said:


> Que? Miami has the worst record in th east if they had Kobe they'd have a few more wins.


Dude, that argument is BS just for the simple fact that Wade is coming fresh off of 2 MAJOR surgeries. So you may want to recant your argument. Also, as for your argument for Wade not putting up 81 points: Anyone who has a true understanding and appreciation for the game of basketball knows that it scoring a ton of points in a game really doesn't matter that much, unless the team gets a win. Yeah, the Lakers won, but did Kobe ever convincingly lead the Lakers to the promised land? No. It was mostly Shaq leading the way. It was the opposite with Shaq and Wade. Now, I believe Kobe and Wade are on the same plane. I scoff when someone says Kobe >>>>>>>>>>>> Wade, just as I scoff when someone says Wade >>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe. They're just too similar, talentwise, to be put highly above the other. Just my 2 cents.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

I agree. Thats why I said in my earlier post its an either/or preferance. Wade is my preferred player.


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## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

im not sure how long dwyane can last.

im not hating or anything, but the guy relies on speed more than kobe or lebron do. kobe's known for his skill level, lebron for his sheer power, and wade for his speed...

speed fades the most with age. power and skill usually don't deteriorate as fast. 

dwyane is also 6'5 (if even), so he's kind of small. oh and he gets pounded pretty often.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

andalusian said:


> Roy was a rookie last year and the team's offense was built around Zach Randolph. I imagine that their success when Randolph was out of the line is what lead to his trade at what seemed like 30 cents on the dollar - of course, if you compare NY and Portland this year, it seems as if the Portland management and coaching staff knew what they were doing.
> 
> The only time Roy had a chance to lead a NBA team was this year, and their current record is not too shabby for such a young team.
> 
> Having said that, I am pretty sure that I mentioned in this thread that I like Wade a lot and can not really point any fingers at him given his health and his supporting cast.


I'm not blaming the losing season on Roy, I'm just throwing out an example to show how ridiculous he sounded. Him being a Blazers fan, I thought he'd see how stupid it sounded if it were about the star of his own team.
There's so many variables with the Heat that you can't blame anything on one player, but particularly Wade of all people.



afobisme said:


> dwyane is also 6'5 (if even), so he's kind of small. oh and he gets pounded pretty often.


I think he's 6'4".

And I agree, Wade's not as good as Lebron, but almost as good as Kobe (very close, Kobe's probably just the better player but many would take Wade by preference).


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

They need a win and let him rest more until the ASB, then maybe after that.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

To be fair, this heat team isn't even decent. What's great though, they could win the lottery.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

afobisme said:


> im not sure how long dwyane can last.
> 
> im not hating or anything, but the guy relies on speed more than kobe or lebron do. kobe's known for his skill level, lebron for his sheer power, and wade for his speed...
> 
> ...


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Sliccat said:


>


Yeah, way to make the exception the norm. I agree though, 'cause Wade's even more built than Iverson.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

I think Wade will be ok as he gets older. Hes powerfully built, and may need to rely more on post ups and smarts than his current mode of speed and athleticism. But he has those other facets to his game - and when he is in his 30s he will start to use them a bit more.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

BG44 said:


> I think Wade will be ok as he gets older. *Hes powerfully built, and may need to rely more on post ups and smarts* than his current mode of speed and athleticism. But he has those other facets to his game - and when he is in his 30s he will start to use them a bit more.


MJ :biggrin:


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Is Wade big enough to consistently postup? I doubt it. His best shot is to learn how to play off the ball and become a good shooter, that's how he should best plan to prolong his career.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> Yeah, way to make the exception the norm. I agree though, 'cause Wade's even more built than Iverson.


Then shut the hell up.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

:laugh: at basketball is a team game. 

But yet these are the same people that credit Wade for wins, but yet when they loose its someone else's fault. Come on people, lets try and be realistic here. If this guy is so good, and if he really is the best guard in the league, why should his team not have 10 wins after 37games and to make matters worse they play in the friggin East. Its not like the competition is that great, the 8th seeded team right now is below 500


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Fine, I'll allow you to believe every player's going to play well into their 30s because Allen Iverson did


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

HB said:


> :laugh: at basketball is a team game.
> 
> But yet these are the same people that credit Wade for wins, but yet when they loose its someone else's fault. Come on people, lets try and be realistic here. If these guy is so good, and if he really is the best guard in the league, why should his team not have 10 wins after 37 games and to make matters worse they play in the friggin East. Its not like the competition is that great, the 8th seeded team right now is below 500


True. But it's not like any guard in the East could be argued over Wade


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Wade isn't even healthy. You lames can't even wait for the guy to be healthy and have a slump before you're trying to tear him down, this site has a horrible memory.


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## Burton (Dec 24, 2007)

Pain5155 said:


> kobe>wade
> 
> wade doesnt deserve to be in the same sentence as kobe.


because of what happened in Colorado?


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

lol ^

I think Wades big enough to be able to post guys up. He doesnt get blocked a lot for a guy who drives as much as he does, and his jumper is actually pretty deadly from anywhere inside the three point line. He'll probably need to fix that 3pt shot - but I think he'll age well.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Flash is the Future said:


> True. But it's not like any guard in the East could be argued over Wade


Just those with winning records :biggrin:

And oh you also have the he is not healthy people, well last I checked he is averaging 24/4/7. How is that any different from his previous season stats? Look its understandable that he might not be 100%, but there is no excuse for the Heat to have only 8 wins on the season, IF they supposedly have the best guard in the league.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> Just those with winning records :biggrin:
> 
> And oh you also have the he is not healthy people, well last I checked he is averaging 24/4/7. How is that any different from his previous season stats? Look its understandable that he might not be 100%, but there is no excuse for the Heat to have only 8 wins on the season, IF they supposedly have the best guard in the league.


1. He's not the best guard in the league, and never was.

2. I beg you to find one perimeter player who can do much better with that "supporting cast". This is rivaling that sorry Magic team Mcgrady was on.

3. He still has good numbers, but it's hardly what he's capable of. I think playing with a weak supporting cast, along with coming off *knee and shoulder* surgery, he'd be cut a little slack, but then again we have some of the most irrational people around. Let your favorite player have knee and shoulder surgery and expect him to be on top by the next January.

One thing I will say though, this shows you how easy it was to play with Shaq when he was still a great, or even good player. This is making all that Wade/Lebron or Kobe stuff look silly.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

HB said:


> Just those with winning records :biggrin:
> 
> And oh you also have the he is not healthy people, well last I checked he is averaging 24/4/7. How is that any different from his previous season stats? Look its understandable that he might not be 100%, but there is no excuse for the Heat to have only 8 wins on the season, IF they supposedly have the best guard in the league.


I wouldn't say best in the league. Best in the East for sure though. And just look at Wade's PER. Last year, he put up a historical PER of 30! before the shoulder injury. This year he's at 22. That's a big difference.


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## sMaK (Jun 13, 2002)

He's still the best SG in the East. I've never thought he was better than Kobe, but he's right behind him. Watch the games people. Wade is doing everything that he can possibly do.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I still don't think he's proven himself over Arenas honestly. We'll have that debate next year though when they're both healthy.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

_Dre_ said:


> I still don't think he's proven himself over Arenas honestly. We'll have that debate next year though when they're both healthy.


Gilbert shoots better than Wade, and Wade does everything else better except getting steal. Would you still take TMac over him?


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

_Dre_ said:


> I still don't think he's proven himself over Arenas honestly. We'll have that debate next year though when they're both healthy.


Wade owns Hibachi!

Arenas pops off at the mouth and Wade knocks the sh*t out of him every time!

Its actually getting quite pathetic!

After the major knee injury I think its Gilberts career/longevity that everyone should be worried about!


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Wade owns Hibachi!
> 
> Arenas pops off at the mouth and Wade knocks the sh*t out of him every time!
> 
> ...


Yeah I'd forgot about that. Now that I think about, I don't think Gilbert Arenas has ever won a game against Wade. EVER!!!


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

_Dre_ said:


> I still don't think he's proven himself over Arenas honestly. We'll have that debate next year though when they're both healthy.


Ok I agree with most of the stuff you said in this thread but *WHAT THE HELL*..?


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Last year Wade averaged 29 and 8 before the injury yet somehow somebody thinks that isn't different from 24 and 7.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

adam said:


> Last year Wade averaged 29 and 8 before the injury yet somehow somebody thinks that isn't different from 24 and 7.


NBA.com says 27.4ppg, a 3 point difference in ppg is hardly the reason why the Heat are loosing games.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

HB said:


> NBA.com says 27.4ppg, a 3 point difference in ppg is hardly the reason why the Heat are loosing games.


That's including the games after his injury where he tried to rehab and make a return, rather unsuccessfuly.

But anyway, the reason we arn't winning games is simply cause we suck. I can't really be bothered getting into the all the details but it starts with Smush and ends with Jackson.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> Fine, I'll allow you to believe every player's going to play well into their 30s because Allen Iverson did


Great. Next, you can even stop putting words in my mouth.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Sliccat said:


> Great. Next, you can even stop putting words in my mouth.


Take your L and move along.

And yes, it's still close to me between Arenas and Wade. Wade's more efficient, Arenas is a better shooter, but honestly...other then minimal statistical advantages, I can't call it. They're so close to the same player it's scary. And I don't care about team vs. team matchups, 'cause that has nothing to with individual matchups.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

_Dre_ said:


> Take your L and move along.
> 
> And yes, it's still close to me between Arenas and Wade. Wade's more efficient, Arenas is a better shooter, but honestly...other then minimal statistical advantages, I can't call it. They're so close to the same player it's scary. And I don't care about team vs. team matchups, 'cause that has nothing to with individual matchups.


Do you include who has a greater positive impact on their team? Cause Wade definately helps a team more than Arenas (except when he's having those crazy can't-miss games, but so does Wade..).


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

NewAgeBaller said:


> Do you include who has a greater positive impact on their team? Cause Wade definately helps a team more than Arenas (except when he's having those crazy can't-miss games, but so does Wade..).


What's your evidence?


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Championship :biggrin:








Well I don't have evidence but just about everyone is of that opinion I'm sure.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> Take your L and move along.
> 
> And yes, it's still close to me between Arenas and Wade. Wade's more efficient, Arenas is a better shooter, but honestly...other then minimal statistical advantages, I can't call it. They're so close to the same player it's scary. And I don't care about team vs. team matchups, 'cause that has nothing to with individual matchups.


Come on, man. I'm Isiah and you're CBA


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Sliccat said:


> Come on, man. I'm Isiah and you're CBA


Yeah, you are the Isiah Thomas of posting. (The GM, not the player.)


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## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

Wade = Arenas...hahahaha

Thats laughable. 


Wade may never come back fully from injuries, but over the last 3-4 years he has been the better then Gilbert Arenas will probably ever be.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

He probably has been "the better", whatever that is.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> Yeah, you are the Isiah Thomas of posting. (The GM, not the player.).


Hence your posting becoming dramatically worse everytime I'm involved. I put your face in the ground homie.



> What's your evidence?


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

Wade needs shooters to open up driving lanes for him. He has basicly none. The only supposed shooter we have left is JWill (he's been terrrible) and maybe Ricky Davis.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Gilbert Arenas is a liability on defense and that is the main reason that I would take Wade over him. Offensively it's pretty close with Arenas being the better shooter. I would think if Arenas gets what Wade gets with the calls (let's not get into that here) it is at least a tie between the 2 offensive wise. However, on defense I was always bothered by Arenas's effort. It is like his mind just drifts away and you'd see him commit some elementary mental errors which is unacceptable for a player of his caliber. Sure he gets some steals, but it hardly makes up for the easy points that he gives up to whoever he's guarding.

As for Wade being the best SG, he was never better than Kobe and never will be. If he stays healthy though he is perhaps the 2nd best SG in the league since MJ retired, I think that isn't something that only Heat fans would say.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> Gilbert Arenas is a liability on defense and that is the main reason that I would take Wade over him. Offensively it's pretty close with Arenas being the better shooter. I would think if Arenas gets what Wade gets with the calls (let's not get into that here) it is at least a tie between the 2 offensive wise. However, on defense I was always bothered by Arenas's effort. It is like his mind just drifts away and you'd see him commit some elementary mental errors which is unacceptable for a player of his caliber. Sure he gets some steals, but it hardly makes up for the easy points that he gives up to whoever he's guarding.
> 
> As for Wade being the best SG, he was never better than Kobe and never will be. If he stays healthy though he is perhaps the 2nd best SG in the league since MJ retired, I think that isn't something that only Heat fans would say.


He'll never be better than Kobe? Get back to me in 3 years when Wade's 29 and Kobe's 32.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Sliccat said:


> I got these cheesburgers man...please let me have the last word! Man, I'll edited


Where's your dignity?



>


Exactly. Shaq and Wade > Arenas, Wade=Arenas for now.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

I can't see Arenas putting up 42 points and 13 rebounds in a finals game.

Then again, Dre, you are the guy who said that Tracy McGrady hasn't lost a step and that he is just as good as he ever was. It's not like you really know what you're talking about...


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## KingOfTheHeatians (Jul 22, 2005)

Dumb thread. Perhaps even classless, kicking a guy struggling through injuries and still going out there every night for a terrible team and playing hard. People still don't seem to grasp just how injured Wade was at the end of last season. He had nerve damage in his shoulder for christ's sake. Knee and shoulder surgeries at the same time. He's still no better than 65-70% physically. 

Have you guys actually watched him play this year? He can barely even jump now. He's regained some of his quickness but he still doesn't have the same old burst he had before, not even close. That's not to even mention the mental toll of recovering from major injuries while basically not being able to do anything for the whole offseason to get ready for the season. Plus, he's playing with a bunch of dogs who (except for Udonis Haslem) mailed in the season mid-December. 

All this and he still puts up 24.5 points and 6.7 assists while shooting 47% from the field. Yeah, he's turning the ball over a lot now. Probably because he's literally the only way we can get a decent shot on every possession. There's not a single player in the league who has to do more with less on a nightly basis than Wade. 

Our team is terrible. Just pathetic. You look at some of the lineups we put out there some nights and it's just staggering. I mean, who couldn't thrive playing alongside Chris Quinn, Luke Jackson, Alexander Johnson and Mark Blount?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Flash is the Future said:


> He'll never be better than Kobe? Get back to me in 3 years when Wade's 29 and Kobe's 32.


That's not what I meant, if so, why stop there. Let's all come back when Kobe's retired and Wade is still on his last legs, then he will be better by default. In fact, someone like OJ Mayo or Derrick Rose will be better than both Kobe and Wade, all they have to do is stay in the league by the time the other 2 has retired. :lol:

Jokes aside, I meant that under the assumption that Wade still hasn't peaked. When he peaks, when you look back at his career, he is not going to be a better player than Kobe during Kobe's prime which lasted almost a decade.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> That's not what I meant, if so, why stop there. Let's all come back when Kobe's retired and Wade is still on his last legs, then he will be better by default. In fact, someone like OJ Mayo or Derrick Rose will be better than both Kobe and Wade, all they have to do is stay in the league by the time the other 2 has retired. :lol:
> 
> Jokes aside, I meant that under the assumption that Wade still hasn't peaked. When he peaks, when you look back at his career, he is not going to be a better player than Kobe during Kobe's prime which lasted almost a decade.


That's fair, and I agree.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

adam said:


> I can't see Arenas putting up 42 points and 13 rebounds in a finals game.


I don't see what evidence you have to say that, considering he averaged 34 points a game in his last playoff appearance, but that's your opinion.



> Then again, Dre, you are the guy who said that Tracy McGrady hasn't lost a step and that he is just as good as he ever was. It's not like you really know what you're talking about...


Find where I said he hadn't lost a step. You won't because I never said he hadn't lost a step, but I did say I still think he's top tier, despite the back issues. I like how you're trying to come at me with wrong facts, maybe you don't know what you're talking about.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Wade's defence, passing and basketball IQ are all better than Arenas'. Wade's also more athetlic and can get to the line easier.

I just don't see what Arenas is superior to Wade at, other than shooting. Maybe I'm forgetting something. I guess I'll wait till Arenas is back on the court again though.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

_Dre_ said:


> I don't see what evidence you have to say that, considering he averaged 34 points a game in his last playoff appearance, but that's your opinion.


That was the series where he was guarded by NBA superstar Eric Snow, right? The one that they lost, right?

Just because Arenas "can" or "might" do what Wade did doesn't make you right for saying that he and Wade until now are equal. Until Arenas actually does something you can't keep saying Wade = Arenas.



> Find where I said he hadn't lost a step. You won't because I never said he hadn't lost a step, but I did say I still think he's top tier, despite the back issues. I like how you're trying to come at me with wrong facts, maybe you don't know what you're talking about.


You only said that he was as good as LeBron and Wade and should have free reign and that he could average over 30ppg.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

adam said:


> That was the series where he was guarded by NBA superstar Eric Snow, right? The one that they lost, right?


Yeah, Jason Terry and Devin Harris really give prime GP a run for his money. And how many players are capable of averaing 34 a game off 46% percent shooting with _anyone_ guarding them?

Just because Arenas "can" or "might" do what Wade did doesn't make you right for saying that he and Wade until now are equal. Until Arenas actually does something you can't keep saying Wade = Arenas.

Well, let's just fault all players that've never been to the finals and say only ones that've done such are better. That's a utopian NBA.



> You only said that he was as good as LeBron and Wade and should have free reign and that he could average over 30ppg.


Nope, never said he was as good as Lebron. But Wade, yes. And yes he deserves free reign. And yes, if the situation called for it, he could still average close to 30 a night, but having Yao Ming at the center renders that kind of unnecessary. When has the situation called for 30 a night, or close to that? When they're the lone offensive option for their team by a long shot. Iverson in Philly, Kobe in LA, Lebron in Cleveland. Mcgrady in Orlando. 

Put Mcgrady on a team where there's no exceptional (or willing) second option, and if healthy, I believe he still can average 28 to 30 a night. His game has regressed in Houston, he doesn't penetrate as much because of injuries, but he's still a top flight talent, when completely healthy...I refer to his success with the Rockets without Yao in recent seasons.



> Wade's defence, passing and basketball IQ are all better than Arenas'. Wade's also more athetlic and can get to the line easier.


Wade can be considered a better defender, but that's his only glaring/major advantage over Arenas' skillset. And I don't see why you say Wade's more athletic, maybe cause he dunks more, but Arenas is consistently good for spectacular/acrobatic layups. I'd like to know what non Heat fans think though.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

You definitely said that he was as good as LeBron. Thank god for the search function.

And I'm not faulting Arenas for not putting up record stats in the NBA finals. I'm faulting him for not being able to put up the record breaking performances in the first rounds and 2nd rounds that Wade has.

A high scoring first round loss is not even close to the first round performances Wade has put on.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

_Dre_ said:


> Wade can be considered a better defender, but that's his only glaring/major advantage over Arenas' skillset. And I don't see why you say Wade's more athletic, maybe cause he dunks more, but Arenas is consistently good for spectacular/acrobatic layups. I'd like to know what non Heat fans think though.


Well its not that Arenas isn't athletic, and I don't think it's a big difference either. I just think Wade is a bit more explosive and a bit quicker. And just a guess but in my opinion Wade's vertical is better than Arenas as well (again, by a very slight margin).


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

You also conveniently leave out their head to head in the playoffs where Shaq sat out 2 games and played sparingly in 2 others, Wade put up 42 and 7 in one game, and Wade averaged 28, 8, 6 on 54% shooting in the series. What's your excuse for Arenas there? That was a sweep. Any explanation?


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Edit: That's actually 31, 8, and 7 on 54% shooting. I've got the game on and I messed that up.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

adam said:


> You also conveniently leave out their head to head in the playoffs where Shaq sat out 2 games and played sparingly in 2 others, Wade put up 42 and 7 in one game, and Wade averaged 28, 8, 6 on 50% shooting in the series. What's your excuse for Arenas there? That was a sweep. Any explanation?


I love how you mention a sweep, as if the Heat vs. Wizards has anything to do with Arenas vs. Wade. 

Anyway, Wade was admittedly having one of the greatest postseasons ever that spring, but I don't think it's fair to compare Wade's best output ever with Arenas' in his first playoff appearance. That wasn't even Arenas' breakout year, he didn't vault himself up to comparable status with Wade until _last_ season.

Oh, and yes, thank god for the search function. I went back and searched "Mcgrady" and "Lebron", and unless I'm illiterate, I don't see anything that imtimates I said Mcgrady is better than Lebron. In fact, I found this:



> 1: Nash, Kidd, Arenas
> 2: Kobe, Wade, Carter
> 3: Lebron, Mcgrady, Artest
> 4: Duncan, Garnett, Nowitzki
> 5: Yao, Amare, Camby


Bad opinion at the 5 notwithstanding, that's the closest I see to a post I made evaluating both of them. We can talk Arenas vs. Wade (not Heat vs. Wizards), but what you should do is drop the lies if you want a credible debate.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

:lol: It's not fair to your argument to mention a series where they went head to head, Arenas defended Wade, Arenas ripped him in the media, and then Wade destroyed him on the court? I'm...sorry? Maybe your argument just sucks? And you don't think the play of Wade had anything to do with it being a sweep?

You want me to post where you said McGrady is as good as LeBron? Done. Give me a couple minutes, it's on the way. I'll post the "lies."


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

http://www.basketballforum.com/4631114-post65.html

cpawfan:


> How are you tiering the others?


You:


> No order:
> 
> Kobe, Wade, Lebron, Mcgrady
> 
> Carter, Pierce, Allen, Johnson(borderline)





http://www.basketballforum.com/4631287-post69.html

cpawfan:


> TMac is better than the rest of the second tier, but he isn't on par with the other 3 of the first tier.


You:


> Yes he is. Just as good as Lebron and Wade.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

adam said:


> :lol: It's not fair to your argument to mention a series where they went head to head, Arenas defended Wade, Arenas ripped him in the media, and then Wade destroyed him on the court? I'm...sorry? Maybe your argument just sucks? And you don't think the play of Wade had anything to do with it being a sweep?
> 
> You want me to post where you said McGrady is as good as LeBron? Done. Give me a couple minutes, it's on the way. I'll post the "lies."


No, it's not fair to compare the two in *that* situation. Arenas talks, so what, that's impertinent to their play oncourt. 

Wade, like I said, was on a historical hot streak, Arenas wasn't even the caliber of player he is today, and was in his first playoff matchup. Arenas averaged 25 a game that year, but jumped all the way up to 29 the next year, you don't think that indicates that the year before he wasn't the same caliber player?

If it's what you want to hear, yes, Wade outplayed Arenas and was better then. That's a hollow victory though, in that case, every comparision would hinge on matchups where one was on top of their game, and one had yet to fully blossom. But they don't, and what I say today isn't about the 2005 NBA playoffs, nearing 3 years ago. It's about now, or at least relatively close to today, you can do better than that. Ever since that point in time, they've been on the same pedestal as players overrall, team success notwithstanding.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Ok, it's not fair to use _that_ situation because it nullifies your argument...

Want to compare the next year where Wade had a PER of 28.9 and won a championship and had some even better postseason series and Arenas had a PER of 23.8 and got outplayed by LeBron? Which one in your opinion is better? So Arenas played well in that series, that still puts him below Wade.


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

wow to the knicks.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

ElMarroAfamado said:


> wow to the knicks.


They have won four of their last five, meanwhile the Heat have lost 13 in a row


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

adam said:


> http://www.basketballforum.com/4631114-post65.html
> 
> cpawfan:
> 
> ...


Dated April 4th of last year, in a season where you admitted Lebron's deformed alter ego "bored Lebron" was reeking havoc on Cleveland fans' mental state, and Mcgrady had had a long stretch without Yao when he was arguably second half MVP. Yep, I said it. I didn't remember this thread when I said never, but yeah, at that instance, I said it. And I was right. I think few people at that time could realistically disagree with me, those without preconceived anti-Mcgrady notions that is. 



> Ok, it's not fair to use that situation because it nullifies your argument...
> 
> Want to compare the next year where Wade had a PER of 28.9 and won a championship and had some even better postseason series and Arenas had a PER of 23.8 and got outplayed by LeBron? Which one in your opinion is better? So Arenas played well in that series, that still puts him below Wade.


I made a mistake, I assumed that first year you were talking about was Wade's run to the finals, but my general argument still sticks, Arenas hadn't fully developed at that point. 
_This_ is actually the year Wade had that monster postseason when most generally thought he was the best player in the league. 

And so what Wade outplayed him? That's insufficient evidence, namely because Wade had the oppurtunity to play with a still effective Shaq, he outplayed a lot of perimeter players in that time period.

And I readily admit all the time I don't know what PER is, and everytime I ask noone obliges me. What all does that stat intel? If it's about efficiency, I bet Wade, playing with Shaq when he was still a top Center who commanded constant attention, did win out. That's the time period people were saying he was as good if not better than Lebron and Kobe, but the naysayers like me were touting Shaq's influence. How Ironic that comes up in a thread now devaluing Wade without Shaq's presence.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

_Dre_ said:


> And I readily admit all the time I don't know what PER is, and everytime I ask noone obliges me. What all does that stat intel? If it's about efficiency, I bet Wade, playing with Shaq when he was still a top Center who commanded constant attention, did win out. That's the time period people were saying he was as good if not better than Lebron and Kobe, but the naysayers like me were touting Shaq's influence. How Ironic that comes up in a thread now devaluing Wade without Shaq's presence.


Its a Player Efficiency Rating, I'm not sure quite how its measured but BNM had a good post about it somewhere recently.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

_Dre_ said:


> Dated April 4th of last year, in a season where you admitted Lebron's deformed alter ego "bored Lebron" was reeking havoc on Cleveland fans' mental state, and Mcgrady had had a long stretch without Yao when he was arguably second half MVP. Yep, I said it. I didn't remember this thread when I said never, but yeah, at that instance, I said it. And I was right. I think few people at that time could realistically disagree with me, those without preconceived anti-Mcgrady notions that is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It effectively combines all stats. Read this.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&id=2850240


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## Shaoxia (Dec 5, 2007)

_Dre_ said:


> Dated April 4th of last year, in a season where you admitted Lebron's deformed alter ego "bored Lebron" was reeking havoc on Cleveland fans' mental state, and Mcgrady had had a long stretch without Yao when he was arguably second half MVP. Yep, I said it. I didn't remember this thread when I said never, but yeah, at that instance, I said it. And I was right. I think few people at that time could realistically disagree with me, those without preconceived anti-Mcgrady notions that is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dre, I regard you as a good poster most of the time, but sometimes you get in arguments where you desperately try to defend your point of view without really having any solid points to make but are just in denial that you're wrong.
There is no argument that can put Arenas on Wade's level. Arenas is a better shooter and that's it. Wade does everything else better and it would be hard to find any objective person who would deny that. It seems you solely base your opinion on production, where, statistically, they are "close".
Well then, is Wade as good as Kobe? You say he isn't. But why so? Their production is close. Without Shaq both of them had about the same success, with a good Shaq both of them won titles.
And you said it yourself, in the 2006 post-season, Wade was regarded as the best player in the league by many. In the 06/07 season, before Wade went down with injury, he was BY FAR the best player in the league. He had a much higher PER (around 30, which is historic) than anybody else and put up ridiculous stats. Unfortunately, most opposing fans are idiots who forget about this for the sake of convenience. Now at that time, you couldn't apply your lame Shaq-argument either because he was out for half of the season. Wade put up almost 30 points, over 8 assists and over 5 rebounds a game, 2 steals and 1.2 blocks on 50% shooting while playing without Shaq. I remember Minstrel saying at that time that if Wade continues to play at that level, he is the best player in the league. But then came the injury and haters, gullible fans and people with bad memory suddenly thought that Wade wasn't that good afterall.
If Wade hadn't gone down with that injury he would still put up stats like those and we wouldn't have that Arenas Wade argument, but instead would still discuss LeBron-Wade.
Wade is injured now and his play is not as good, but the last time he was 100% healthy he was the best player in the league.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Shaoxia said:


> There is no argument that can put Arenas on Wade's level. Arenas is a better shooter and that's it. Wade does everything else better and it would be hard to find any objective person who would deny that. It seems you solely base your opinion on production, where, statistically, they are "close".


Not just production, skillset. As far as I'm concerned, there are a few things that can without much debate be given to one or the other. Wade is a better passer. Arenas the better shooter. Wade the better man defender. 

Other than that, I honestly don't see much difference. Both can get to the basket at will, they're gifted with equal explosiveness and handle. Wade is more inclined to be a playmaker, but I think that's a testament to offensive system then anything. 

Wade is the primary ballhandler for the Heat, and with the penetrate and kick thing he does in that halfcourt offense, he's able to find open shooters. The Wizards play a princeton offense, which is predicated on a more balanced disposal of the ball between perimeter players. They also are more iso oriented then the Heat, which means Arenas is going to get less duty setting the table, so to speak, for his teammates. Nevertheless, Arenas is developing into a better playmaker, trying to walk the fine line tweener guards face as both distributors and scorers.

On the defensive side of things, neither are great, but I'll give it to Wade, because I think he takes man defense more seriously then Wade. They're both equally effective team/help defenders IMO though, they both play passing lanes well and are capable of starting their team's break. Wade also benefitted by playing with a top rate man defender in James Posey, rarely did he have to guard the opposition's best player. I'll admit though, Arenas has a ways to go before he can be considered a good man defender.

All in all...maybe being in DC I see things a little different...but I don't think the difference between the two is as pronounced as people lead on. They're both great scorers, top penetrators, Arenas has the shooting edge, Wade is a better postup/inside 12 feet player against his man, he's gaining post moves Arenas doesn't have. Arenas is the more explosive player between the two, as evidenced by more 40 and 50 point outbursts. Where Arenas can rack up points though, Wade does have a better triple double capability, as he seems to be able to rack up rebounds and assists at a quicker rate then Gil. 

As far as distribution, they're both in the 6 apg range as of late, even with Wade handling the ball more than Arenas, who has Daniels and Butler to share duties with. The differences are slight to me. They just are.



> Well then, is Wade as good as Kobe? You say he isn't. But why so? Their production is close. Without Shaq both of them had about the same success, with a good Shaq both of them won titles.


It's not about just production, it's about skillset like I mentioned up there. Kobe is more complete then either of them. And you can't say they've both had the same success, Wade doesn't have any substantial time without Shaq to make that declaration. The Heat were a middling team in the East with Wade as the main banana last year, and this year is a disaster. Kobe's consistently made the playoffs in a harder conference, save one year. And neither supporting cast is that much better then the other. 

I think Kobe's the best player in the league though, he does pretty much everything they both do, plus he's a different class of defender. Lebron is gaining on him though, if not better by now.



> And you said it yourself, in the 2006 post-season, Wade was regarded as the best player in the league by many. In the 06/07 season, before Wade went down with injury, he was BY FAR the best player in the league. He had a much higher PER (around 30, which is historic) than anybody else and put up ridiculous stats. Unfortunately, most opposing fans are idiots who forget about this for the sake of convenience. Now at that time, you couldn't apply your lame Shaq-argument either because he was out for half of the season.
> Wade put up almost 30 points, over 8 assists and over 5 rebounds a game, 2 steals and 1.2 blocks on 50% shooting while playing without Shaq. I remember Minstrel saying at that time that if Wade continues to play at that level, he is the best player in the league. But then came the injury and haters, gullible fans and people with bad memory suddenly thought that Wade wasn't that good afterall.
> If Wade hadn't gone down with that injury he would still put up stats like those and we wouldn't have that Arenas Wade argument, but instead would still discuss LeBron-Wade.
> Wade is injured now and his play is not as good, but the last time he was 100% healthy he was the best player in the league.


Wade did have a great performance last season, but I'll note Wade had free-reign (as a player) last year, so the numbers he averaged last year were no shock, given his talents. Every player in that class, Kobe, Iverson, Mcgrady, Lebron had spectacular years when they were far and away the main banana for their team. I must had that Arenas had (an albeit less efficient) 29, 6 and 5, while playing sharing shots with two legitimate all-stars, Caron Butler, and Antawn Jamison (who's more perimeter oriented then most 4s). Wade had the edge statistically last year, yes, but it takes more than a year for me to make my decision, when the two players everything, production and skillset, are so close.

One's 26, the other's 25. We will see. This debate is far from over IMO, it's just going to take people who don't overvalue team success in an individual debate to realize it.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

When Arenas was at the top of his game, I think he could be compared to Wade,
But its been a while since Arenas has played at that level (and yet to be seen in the playoffs), so most people will go Wade > Arenas immediately.

Personally I think Wade > Arenas because of his overall game, but not by a huge margin.

But at the same time, I think to say Arenas = Wade at this point is a bit ridiculous.


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

No way T-Mac is on the same level as Wade, LeBron and Kobe. If he is, then so are the guys in your so called 2nd tier. All those guys, Pierce, Carter, Johnson and Allen are better than him. 

T-Mac is so overrated. He's not better than any of those guys. Put any of those 4 guys on the Rockets teams that went to the playoffs and they would have been past the 1st round.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Thats one way you could put it.. If you think Lebron is on the same level as Wade/Lebron/Kobe/etc.. you could argue that any of those players would take Houston further in the playoffs than Tmac did (and you can say "where's your evidence?" but it's pretty much agreed by everyone..).


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

If you think Wade > Arenas by "not a huge" margin, why is my opinion ridiculous? That doesn't register. You just said Wade and Arenas, both on their game, were comparable. Isn't that what I'm saying? 

And as far as Arenas not being himself, I don't really know what you're talking about. He was playing great before he got injured last year, and yeah, he had a slow start to this season, but that was all of 8 games. He'll probably try and come back this year, but he won't be the same, give him until next year until you can compare the two fairly again, although realistically, it's going to be even longer than that coming from a knee injury, those take two years to heal. 

And did I not mention the 34 ppg he scored in his duel with Lebron his last playoff appearance? Is that nothing?


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

I've never seen Arenas as as explosive or athletic as Wade. Wade, for most of his career has played above the rim while Arenas has played below it. A healthy Gil's closer in speed and athleticism to the version of Wade that's currently playing (who was told by doctors that it would take 9-12 months after the tendinitis surgery for him to return to his previously explosive state). And it's help defense where Wade really sets himself apart for Gilbert, who isn't the shotblocker Wade is (though admittedly not so much this year).


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

NewAgeBaller said:


> Thats one way you could put it.. If you think Lebron is on the same level as Wade/Lebron/Kobe/etc.. you could argue that any of those players would take Houston further in the playoffs than Tmac did (and you can say "where's your evidence?" but it's pretty much agreed by everyone..).


You could argue that, but you'd have no concrete evidence. Mcgrady has the same production in the postseason he does in the regular season, he's just been on unfortunate teams. 

He's been swept twice on poor Magic teams.

He had that infamous series against the Pistons when they were up...but don't we all view the Pistons as the ultimate back against the wall team? If it weren't for Mcgrady's quotes, it wouldn't be nearly the spectacle it was made out to be, the Magic were lucky to have that lead in the first place, they weren't better then the Pistons, and just the year after they proved it with that horrible record.

He's gone 7 games both years in Houston. Once, they played a strong Mavericks team, and lost bad in game 7. That's pretty much the major blip on his playoff career individually, given how bad they lost that game and his performanc. The second time around was last year when they played the Jazz, an eventual WCF team, to a game 7.

I think this guy has the most unfortunate postseason situations, given how talented he is. It's not indicative of how good a player he is.


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## Shaoxia (Dec 5, 2007)

_Dre_ said:


> Not just production, skillset. As far as I'm concerned, there are a few things that can without much debate be given to one or the other. Wade is a better passer. Arenas the better shooter. Wade the better man defender.
> 
> Other than that, I honestly don't see much difference. Both can get to the basket at will, they're gifted with equal explosiveness and handle. Wade is more inclined to be a playmaker, but I think that's a testament to offensive system then anything.
> 
> ...


If it's about skillset too, then there is no way you can consider LeBron the best player in the league, not even 2nd. Wade's skillset is better than LeBron's. Wade has a much better shot inside the 3 point line (please refer to the "hotspots" stat on nba.com), better shooting technique and overall his game is much smoother as compared to Lebron's game that is quite... how can I say... lumpish. Even James fans must admit that his movements are not very graceful. What puts James over Wade at the moment though is just his ridiculous athleticism and body. If it wasn't for James physical gifts he would be nowhere near the best player in the league.

As for Wade being the better playmaker due to the offensive system, that is just plainly wrong. The Wizards have a fast paced offense that inflates the players stats and heavily relies on the backcourt, whereas the Heat play inside out (focusing on the frontcourt) and make the game slow. Washington has better shooters than Miami so Arenas should get plenty of assists by driving and kicking it out to them, but he doesn't. The reason why Wade, although SG, is the primary ballhandler is that he's that good of a playmaker. Miami's offense doesn't work without Wade. That's not because the system is tailored to fit Wade but because Wade is such a great playmaker without whom his teammates cannot get any good looks. Trust me, Wade is a far superior passer, on par with LeBron. That's a thing that's always riddled me by the way: why is it that so many people don't know Wade's passing is just as good as James's?

Anyway, Wade's overall skillset is a bit better than that of Arenas, plus he is more productive, PLUS his teammates play much worse without him while Arenas's teammates suddenly play better. You might say that's because they have to step up. Then how come Wade's teammates cannot step up without him. It's because Wade makes them. Arenas doesn't help his teammates half as much as Wade does. Watch some Heat games and you'll witness how clueless the Heat's players are without Wade. I honestly believe that the Heat are among the worst teams in the league in terms of BBall IQ. Speaking of BBall IQ, Wade is probably top 3 in the league in that regard, way above Kobe and Arenas (Duncan and James are the other in the Top3 for me).

Why do you say the Heat were struggling with Wade as the main banana? Aren't you the guy who, more than anyone else, always says team record doesn't tell too much about a player's worth? Garnett was the main banana in Minnesota and they sucked. Now he suddenly is an MVP guy. Besides, the Heat had terrible unjury issues last year. Can you recall that? Shaq was out half the season, leaving them with Alonzo as their only center (and he couldn't play many minutes). Williams was injured. Riley was injured. Posey was out a while. Sorry, but that argument of yours was just bad, you've got to admit.

You are saying Kobe's supporting cast isn't better than Miami's? Please post that on the Lakers forum and I promise they'll be very amused. The Lakers are so deep and have young players who fight every night. Miami is a bunch of D-Leaguers and old guys who can't play anymore. If Kobe was on the Heat instead of Wade, he would run amok. You think Kobe would like to play with Luke Jackson, Chris Quinn, Ricky Davis, Alexander Johnson, Mark Blount, and here it comes, *SHAQ*? These guys are rotation guys in Miami. What exactly is Kobe doing for the Lakers this season that Wade couldn't do? Wade would score just as many points on an even higher efficiency, setting his teammates up. Do you honestly think the Lakers would be any worse with Wade instead of Kobe? If yes, why? Furthermore, wouldn't you think the Wizards would be better with Wade instead of Arenas? Washington would trade Arenas for Wade in a heartbeat, Miami wouldn't.

You say it takes more than a year for you to make a decision? Then why is Arenas on par with Wade when Wade was much better except for *one season*?

Look at the bold part of your post. You're twisting it whenever it fits your argument. So please don't imply that the Heat cannot win with Wade as the main banana. Give the Heat a healthy Bynum and Derek Fisher at point and they are instant contenders.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

_Dre_ said:


> If you think Wade > Arenas by "not a huge" margin, why is my opinion ridiculous? That doesn't register. You just said Wade and Arenas, both on their game, were comparable. Isn't that what I'm saying?


No you misinterpreted me. I said it isn't really a huge margin as people may think when they're both playing as we know they can, but that its ridiculous to say Arenas = Wade right now. For one, Wade has accomplished more at a higher rate and for a longer period (you could say its cause he had the better team but individually he's been a better or as good player as Arenas for longer than Arenas has).



_Dre_ said:


> And as far as Arenas not being himself, I don't really know what you're talking about. He was playing great before he got injured last year, and yeah, he had a slow start to this season, but that was all of 8 games. He'll probably try and come back this year, but he won't be the same, give him until next year until you can compare the two fairly again, although realistically, it's going to be even longer than that coming from a knee injury, those take two years to heal.
> 
> And did I not mention the 34 ppg he scored in his duel with Lebron his last playoff appearance? Is that nothing?


No when I said it's been a while since we've seen Arenas do what he's capable of, I was including the time off on injury the 8 unsuccessful return games, etc..

I agree, I'll compare them again when Arenas is back playing like we know he can, but my opinion of *now* is that Wade > Arenas (from personally thinking he's a better player, and having more past accomplishments and statistics, etc.).
I will re-evaluate though, I know that Arenas is not getting the credit he deserves right now.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

LamarButler said:


> No way T-Mac is on the same level as Wade, LeBron and Kobe. If he is, then so are the guys in your so called 2nd tier. All those guys, Pierce, Carter, Johnson and Allen are better than him.
> 
> T-Mac is so overrated. He's not better than any of those guys. Put any of those 4 guys on the Rockets teams that went to the playoffs and they would have been past the 1st round.


Vince? No. Pierce Johnson and Allen? Maybe.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Until Kobe loses a step, he will be the best SG in the league for a long time.


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

Someone said Arenas isn't explosive meh. 
He puts on a clinic shooting way behind the 3pt line. He shot a game winner and turned his back on it I'd pay to watch his performance.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Well, 13 games in a row now. A few games they could have won, where Wade disappeared down the stretch. You could only blame injuries so much. I could understand the team not being the best, or playoff contending, but 13 games in a row is 13 games in a row, and players get criticized harshly here for it. People still tack the 16 game losing streak on McGrady after what? 4, 5 years?

13 games is not that far away, and McGrady had a worse team. There was much much less talent on that team. Kobe gets it for the past few seasons of championship inadequacy, yet he's literally dragged that team to the playoffs twice in a row in the deeper west. Lebron took a team to the finals, and that said team is playing like crap for the most part now, but he singlehandedly wins games himself.

And you can't, can't blame the injury if he's doing well in games and losing it down the stretch.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> Well, 13 games in a row now. A few games they could have won, where Wade disappeared down the stretch. You could only blame injuries so much. I could understand the team not being the best, or playoff contending, but 13 games in a row is 13 games in a row, and players get criticized harshly here for it. People still tack the 16 game losing streak on McGrady after what? 4, 5 years?
> 
> 13 games is not that far away, and McGrady had a worse team. There was much much less talent on that team. Kobe gets it for the past few seasons of championship inadequacy, yet he's literally dragged that team to the playoffs twice in a row in the deeper west. Lebron took a team to the finals, and that said team is playing like crap for the most part now, but he singlehandedly wins games himself.
> 
> And you can't, can't blame the injury if he's doing well in games and losing it down the stretch.


This is the 1st year in Wade's career he misses the playoffs. And I suspect we're either quietly tanking, or just don't care. Because right now, the Suns play significanty better defense than us. No one's playing defense right now. Not even Haslem. Ever since Zo got hurt no one's cared.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

If your team is tanking, they're only doing it because they figure they can't win to begin with. 13 straight losses. Is THIRTEEN straight. You can't excuse it.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> If your team is tanking, they're only doing it because they figure they can't win to begin with. 13 straight losses. Is THIRTEEN straight. You can't excuse it.


After such an awful start to the season, all we had to play for was Zo. And when he went down, we lost all reason to try. We've got more talent than last year, but we lost all chemistry whatsoever with the Ricky Davis trade. Take the game we lost to Orlando for example. What the hell is Wade supposed to do when he's scored like 10 points in a row in the 4th with like 2 minutes to go, meaning he's got 48 points total, and Ricky Davis just starts grabbing rebounds, dribbling up the court, and jacking up 3s with 20 seconds on the shot clock? Wade can't do **** when that happens. He gets doubled, passes the ball out, calls for the ball back, and doesn't get it. We need Toine. He knew how to get the **** out of Wade's way in crunchtime.


----------



## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

Tragedy said:


> Well, 13 games in a row now. A few games they could have won, where Wade disappeared down the stretch. You could only blame injuries so much. I could understand the team not being the best, or playoff contending, but 13 games in a row is 13 games in a row, and players get criticized harshly here for it. People still tack the 16 game losing streak on McGrady after what? 4, 5 years?
> 
> *13 games is not that far away, and McGrady had a worse team. There was much much less talent on that team.* Kobe gets it for the past few seasons of championship inadequacy, yet he's literally dragged that team to the playoffs twice in a row in the deeper west. Lebron took a team to the finals, and that said team is playing like crap for the most part now, but he singlehandedly wins games himself.
> 
> And you can't, can't blame the injury if he's doing well in games and losing it down the stretch.


Lets look at who Wade gets to play with!

*Here are 6 guys that dont even belong in the league!*

Earl Barron 
Luke Jackson
Alexander Johnson
Smush Parker
Penny Hardaway
Joel Anthony

*Lets move on to the almost worthless!*

Ricky Davis - complete retard that plays for himself!
Daequan Cook - hes got upside but hes still very raw.
Mark Blount - total stiff!
Chris Quinn - he wouldnt even get PT on 90% of the teams in the league.

*We've reached the decent but not exactly setting the league on fire portion of the roster. Enjoy!*

Zo - done for the season.
Shaq - plays when he feels like it.
Udonis Haslem - regression sucks!
Dorell Wright - tons of talent but Riles wont play him...
Jason Williams - he plays every other week due to the fact that both of his knees are shot!

*Get back to me when Bron, Kobe and T-Mac are #1 options on championship teams!*


----------



## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Going back to the middle of last year to when Arenas and Wade got hurt the prior 1.5 years they were both terrific.

However, Wade has a higher PER in both seasons, TS% were about equal with Wade having a higher average, Wade scored more per 36 minutes, Wade had a much higher assist%, Wade turned it over a bit more, and Wade got more boards. So while it's close, Wade is just a bit better at pretty much everything over Arenas and they add up to where statiscally Wade is just a better player when they've both been at full health.


----------



## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Lets look at who Wade gets to play with!
> 
> *Here are 6 guys that dont even belong in the league!*
> 
> ...


Oh please. STOP with the excuses. 13 straight is 13 straight. PERIOD. Also, I don't think the Magic were any better when they lost 16 straight, yet it fell on McGrady's shoulders HARD, and still follows him here on this board. 

Also, Kobe and T-Mac are in the deep west. The road the Heat took was nothing that faces Kobe and Tmac. Then, Bron lost to the SPURS. Which is far different than the heat beating the Mavs which coincided with a Dirk meltdown. So stop that crap about winning a championship as the number 1 option. There's always more to the story than simply winning it all.


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

Tragedy said:


> Oh please. STOP with the excuses. 13 straight is 13 straight. PERIOD. Also, I don't think the Magic were any better when they lost 16 straight, yet it fell on McGrady's shoulders HARD, and still follows him here on this board.


T-Mac wasnt an NBA Champion with a Finals MVP!!! 



> Also, Kobe and T-Mac are in the deep west. The road the Heat took was nothing that faces Kobe and Tmac.


Sounds like an excuse to me...



> Then, Bron lost to the SPURS. Which is far different than the heat beating the Mavs which coincided with a Dirk meltdown.


Its funny that you forgot to mention that Bron got handed the East last season! He didnt have to play Wade who entered the playoffs at 50%, and he got handed the Wizards who were without Arenas and Butler(both were All-Stars last year)!



> So stop that crap about winning a championship as the number 1 option. *There's always more to the story than simply winning it all.*


Winning is all that matters in sports!

Wade has done it!

Get back to me when Bron, Kobe and T-Mac reach that level!


----------



## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

This is the regular season dude. Just stop. Bron did get handed the east. If you look back (not asking you to) I mentioned during the playoffs that he got a bye against the wizards.

And there is always more to winning it all in the short term. Now 10 years from now, it doesn't matter. But now? You could state what happened. 

13 games is 13 games. I'm talking regular season buddy. I thought superstars don't allow their teams to lose so many?


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

And all you can do is point to a championship nearly 2 years ago. That is LAME.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I love his exclamation points. I think he's Woody Paige.


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> This is the regular season dude. Just stop. * Bron did get handed the east.* If you look back (not asking you to) I mentioned during the playoffs that he got a bye against the wizards.
> 
> And there is always more to winning it all in the short term. Now 10 years from now, it doesn't matter. But now? You could state what happened.
> 
> 13 games is 13 games. I'm talking regular season buddy. I thought superstars don't allow their teams to lose so many?


It sounds almost as if they didn't beat the #1 seed.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Brandname said:


> It sounds almost as if they didn't beat the #1 seed.


The thing is they only had two challenging series' vs. 3 for the average team. I'm not devaluing their run, because their play against the Pistons validated them, but perhaps they _were_ less banged up or tired than other teams they played.


----------



## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> And all you can do is point to a championship nearly 2 years ago. That is LAME.


And TMac can't even do that...


----------



## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Well I won't defend our team cause its pretty ****ing pathetic.

But as for Wade being responsible for the losses, no. Even when Wade scored *48* on *16-20 FG* against Orlando we still lost - cause our defence sucks, noone else does anything, and in the clutch somehow Ricky always ends up with the ball..

*Let me reiterate, our defence is the worst in the league by far.* Noone tries, noone hustles, noone rotates, noone plays man or team defence. Our best defensive big is Shaq, who's horrible. Our best perimeter defender is apparently Ricky, and he can't even stay with Eddy Curry on the perimeter..

Our offence is pretty much brick, brick, brick, wade scores, brick, brick, brick, shaq scores (wtf?), brick, brick, wade scores.

We don't have any chemistry or effort, we can't even pass, and we don't seem to want to win games.

You can't blame that on Wade when the team as a whole is putting in their best collective effort to bring his own efforts down. Doesn't matter how many points Wade scores, we still find ways to lose. And when he tries to get teammates involved, its even worse..

But seeing as you keep brining up Tmac, put him on this team, lets see how they go. My guess is they'd lose 13 in 35 seconds, assuming Mcgrady's even playing.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

> Our offence is pretty much brick, brick, brick, wade scores, brick, brick, brick, shaq scores (wtf?), brick, brick, wade scores.


:laugh:


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

> 13 games is 13 games. I'm talking regular season buddy. I thought superstars don't allow their teams to lose so many?


There's really only so much one player can do. As the other guy mentioned, when you get 48 on 16-20, you did your job.

I'm telling you guys, the heat will get the #1 pick, and be back in the playoffs next year.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

NewAgeBaller said:


> Our offence is pretty much brick, brick, brick, wade scores, brick, brick, brick, *shaq scores (wtf?), *brick, brick, wade scores.


:laugh:


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Sliccat said:


> There's really only so much one player can do. As the other guy mentioned, when you get 48 on 16-20, you did your job.
> 
> I'm telling you guys, the heat will get the #1 pick, and be back in the playoffs next year.


Exactly, thats what I was trying to say with my waste of time rant..

And yea we can only hope that Stern likes us enough to get us the #1 pick over Minnesota :biggrin:


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Sliccat said:


> There's really only so much one player can do. As the other guy mentioned, when you get 48 on 16-20, you did your job.
> 
> I'm telling you guys, the heat will get the #1 pick, and be back in the playoffs next year.


You can't even say that. It wasn't enough still. As the franchise guy, it falls on him even then. It's terrible but it happens to ALL PLAYERS. People want to act like Wade is the new Jordan, the no.1 SG in the league. The no.1 sg wouldn't allow 13 straight. PERIOD. Look at the lakers a few seasons ago, Kobe dropped 81 to beat the Raptors, he plays while injured no matter what. Look at Lebron with those MONSTER triple doubles.

13 straight? Nah man, no excuses. Wade drops a few notches.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> You can't even say that. It wasn't enough still. As the franchise guy, it falls on him even then. It's terrible but it happens to ALL PLAYERS. People want to act like Wade is the new Jordan, the no.1 SG in the league. The no.1 sg wouldn't allow 13 straight. PERIOD. Look at the lakers a few seasons ago, Kobe dropped 81 to beat the Raptors, he plays while injured no matter what. Look at Lebron with those MONSTER triple doubles.
> 
> 13 straight? Nah man, no excuses. Wade drops a few notches.


And look at Wade willing his team to victory against Orlando while scoring 48 points on 16-20 shooting. Wait, no? WTF is Ricky Davis doing? He's just jacking up shots when Wade hasn't missed? Heat lose? How? Why? What happened?


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

The coach needs to correct that then. Sorry, but Riley brought him in.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> The coach needs to correct that then. Sorry, but Riley brought him in.


So how is that Wade's fault again?


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Wade's the superstar. Ultimately it falls on his shoulders. Sorry that's life.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Flash is the Future said:


> So how is that Wade's fault again?


It's not the fact that it's Wade's fault, _per se_.
But ultimately the franchise player must atke some of the blame.
It happened with T-Mac in Orlando; it happened with Kobe in a couple of Laker seasons, etc..
It's just the way it goes. Is it a knock on Wade? Yes. Is it fair? Well, maybe not. But still...


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> Wade's the superstar. Ultimately it falls on his shoulders. Sorry that's life.





> The coach needs to correct that then. Sorry, but Riley brought him in.


:thinking2:

Wade can't do anything if he's not going to be given the ball when he asks for it or if his teamates take stupid shots. I'm now convinced that everywhere Ricky goes turns into a losing team no matter what. Our biggest weakness this year has been closing games, and what do ya know, Ricky's shooting something ridiculous like 30% in the 4th quarter and he's shooting a LOT. Riley won't play Dorell in crunch time cause he's 22, but we certainly look much better with out there instead of Ricky. I never blamed Kobe when the Lakers struggled because Smush and Cook sucked. And you can't blame Wade for this mess. Just like you can't blame Lebron his rookie season for having a bad team (hmm, another Ricky Davis sighting).


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Tragedy said:


> You can't even say that. It wasn't enough still. As the franchise guy, it falls on him even then. It's terrible but it happens to ALL PLAYERS. People want to act like Wade is the new Jordan, the no.1 SG in the league. The no.1 sg wouldn't allow 13 straight. PERIOD. Look at the lakers a few seasons ago, Kobe dropped 81 to beat the Raptors, he plays while injured no matter what. Look at Lebron with those MONSTER triple doubles.
> 
> 13 straight? Nah man, no excuses. Wade drops a few notches.


Look at the Lakers a couple season's ago when the lakers went 2-19 (2-17 w/kobe). In a lot of those games, Kobe wasnt even droppin' 20 points


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Winning is all that matters in sports!
> 
> Wade has done it!
> 
> Get back to me when Bron, Kobe and T-Mac reach that level!


wade has won a single championship. i didn't realize the goal in sports was to win one single championship and then you no longer had to worry about anything else.

oh and since apparently you forgot, kobe won a few championships.

!!!!!


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

rocketeer said:


> wade has won a single championship. i didn't realize the goal in sports was to win one single championship and then you no longer had to worry about anything else.
> 
> oh and since apparently you forgot, kobe won a few championships.
> 
> !!!!!


Kobe had a prime Shaq in that case. In this case, Shaq had Wade. Not vice versa. But Wade's not even playing 100% right now. He's out there hobbling around. It's admirable for Kobe but not for Wade. If he was sitting, he would've bailed on his team. The fact is, the same criticisms that apply to Wade can apply to Kobe and Lebron as well. Depending on who's being discussed, of course. If it's Wade, then Lebron and Wade are painted in a positive light while Wade is criticised. If it's Lebron, then everyone points to Wade's championship and asks where his is. If it's Kobe, they point to Lebron and Wade's passing and criticize Kobe's. Just look in Brandname's sig at what Shaq_Diesel said last year. "If he wasn't great, you wouldn't hate." This applies equally to all 3 of them, Kobe, Wade, and Lebron. Everyone loved Wade's game until he won a championship. Coincidence? I think not.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Flash is the Future said:


> Kobe had a prime Shaq in that case. In this case, Shaq had Wade. Not vice versa. But Wade's not even playing 100% right now. He's out there hobbling around. It's admirable for Kobe but not for Wade. If he was sitting, he would've bailed on his team. The fact is, the same criticisms that apply to Wade can apply to Kobe and Lebron as well. Depending on who's being discussed, of course. If it's Wade, then Lebron and Wade are painted in a positive light while Wade is criticised. If it's Lebron, then everyone points to Wade's championship and asks where his is. If it's Kobe, they point to Lebron and Wade's passing and criticize Kobe's. Just look in Brandname's sig at what Shaq_Diesel said last year. "If he wasn't great, you wouldn't hate." This applies equally to all 3 of them, Kobe, Wade, and Lebron. Everyone loved Wade's game until he won a championship. Coincidence? I think not.


i like wade's game.

heatlunatic apparently only cares about winning(which wade is not currently doing, but that's not really even the point). kobe and wade have both won championships(kobe multiple ones) but somehow kobe hasn't reached wade's winning level.


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## quench23 (Mar 26, 2006)

Um. Hes hurt?


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

rocketeer said:


> wade has won a single championship. i didn't realize the goal in sports was to win one single championship and then you no longer had to worry about anything else.


Once again...get back to me when Bron, Kobe and T-Mac land a ring/Finals MVP as a #1 option!



> oh and since apparently you forgot, kobe won a few championships.


Are you referring to when he rode King Kongs coattails to a 3peat?

Impressive...


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Once again...get back to me when Bron, Kobe and T-Mac land a ring/Finals MVP as a #1 option!
> 
> Are you referring to when he rode King Kongs coattails to a 3peat?
> 
> Impressive...


so wade gets every excuse possible when his team struggles, but kobe gets absolutely no credit when his team wins 3 championships? i guess that sounds about right!!!!!


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rOpSErM03n4&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rOpSErM03n4&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

adam said:


> <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/rOpSErM03n4&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/rOpSErM03n4&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>


:lol:

I like these too.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vt2i0ts-uck&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vt2i0ts-uck&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/z3rskbp3zao&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/z3rskbp3zao&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I'm glad in this era we'll finally get to see both sides of the argument with one player. Wade was fortunate to play with Shaq and win a title, but he's now playing with a lottery team, and we see how fast opinions change.


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

rocketeer said:


> so wade gets every excuse possible when his team struggles, *but kobe gets absolutely no credit when his team wins 3 championships?* i guess that sounds about right!!!!!


It wasnt Kobes team!!!


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

It's quittin time for Riles. LOL


----------



## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

HKF said:


> It's quittin time for Riles. LOL


He won't quit until he gets inducted into the HOF this year. But it would probably be good for him to return to his role as President full time. Like he said in 2003, this team could use a new voice. Erik Spoelstra has been waiting


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Just close your eyes and hope it's 2009, Heat fans. Maybe you'll open them and see Lebron.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

HEATLUNATIC said:


> It wasnt Kobes team!!!


really? so kobe didn't play for those lakers teams?


----------



## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

_Dre_ said:


> Just close your eyes and hope it's 2009, Heat fans. Maybe you'll open them and see Lebron.


On the other side of the court, standing next to dwyane wade, as the announcer introduces the visiting Brooklyn Nets


----------



## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

_Dre_ said:


> I'm glad in this era we'll finally get to see both sides of the argument with one player. Wade was fortunate to play with Shaq and win a title, but he's now playing with a lottery team, and we see how fast opinions change.


Shaq was still dominant enough to win another title. Like most great players he makes the players around him better. 
It's easy to take them for granted when you have a superstar.

Witout the Diesel all I see now is another all star player.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

BDB said:


> Witout the Diesel all I see now is another all star player.


Are you saying Wade is just "another all-star" without Snack Attack?


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

NewAgeBaller said:


> Are you saying Wade is just "another all-star" without Snack Attack?


A good allstar but not on the great level his teamate is.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

BDB said:


> A good allstar but not on the great level his teamate is.


So you're talking like all-time right?

Hoping you are, then I agree, Shaq was too dominant throughout his career and Wade's only in his 5th year for one..


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

NewAgeBaller said:


> So you're talking like all-time right?
> 
> Hoping you are, then I agree, Shaq was too dominant throughout his career and Wade's only in his 5th year for one..


I'm talking about being a great player. Wade is special but I'm not quick to give him that stamp. He'll show whether he is or isn't in the future.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

BDB said:


> I'm talking about being a great player. Wade is special but I'm not quick to give him that stamp. He'll show whether he is or isn't in the future.


Yep fair enough.

Hopefully he gets another playoff run sometime soon, cause lots of people's last memories are of him in the bulls series..


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## Shaoxia (Dec 5, 2007)

BDB said:


> I'm talking about being a great player. Wade is special but I'm not quick to give him that stamp. He'll show whether he is or isn't in the future.


What is wrong with you? You are either a hater or you haven't followed basketball for too long. You don't want to give Wade the stamp of being a great player?
He showed signs of being great in his rookie season when he sank the Hornets in the the 1st round and then played great basketball in the 2nd round against the Pacers who were the best team in the east that year.
In only his second year in the league he advanced to the ECF and would have gone on to the Finals had he not gotten injured. In his third year he LED Miami - with the help from his teammates and an ok Shaq (who was good but not dominant anymore) - to the championship.
You can talk all day about how Dallas choked, but fact is that Wade had to play ridiculous basketball in those Finals to beat them.
What else does he have to do to prove to you that he is a great player?

Anybody who has ever played on a team with many crappy players (like I did) knows how impossible it is to win games by oneself.
Not the greatest player ever can make a team of scrubs look like contenders. Look at KG and what he was perceived as when he was with the Wolves. Give great players good teammates and they'll prove the haters wrong.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Shaoxia said:


> What is wrong with you? You are either a hater or you haven't followed basketball for too long. You don't want to give Wade the stamp of being a great player?
> He showed signs of being great in his rookie season when he sank the Hornets in the the 1st round and then played great basketball in the 2nd round against the Pacers who were the best team in the east that year.
> In only his second year in the league he advanced to the ECF and would have gone on to the Finals had he not gotten injured. In his third year he LED Miami - with the help from his teammates and an ok Shaq (who was good but not dominant anymore) - to the championship.
> You can talk all day about how Dallas choked, but fact is that Wade had to play ridiculous basketball in those Finals to beat them.
> ...


I think he meant all-time great, which Wade isn't yet cause his success has been short-lived (opposed to those who sustained their greatness for atleast 5 years or even their whole career). For example, I'd take Kobe over Wade in this regard even after all the media hate, negativity and everything else, cause Kobe's proved his game over several seasons/playoffs, and if thats not enough, he's picked up a few titles/records, etc..

Wade is definately great now, but will he be an all-time great in the big scheme of things? Too early to tell (though things seem to point towards it), but if his career ended today I wouldn't call him an all-time great. He only just turned 26, lets see him keep his game up and give him a little time first.

If he WAS saying Wade isn't yet a great player in the league *today*, then yea he crazy.


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## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

Shaoxia said:


> What is wrong with you? You are either a hater or you haven't followed basketball for too long. You don't want to give Wade the stamp of being a great player?
> He showed signs of being great in his rookie season when he sank the Hornets in the the 1st round and then played great basketball in the 2nd round against the Pacers who were the best team in the east that year.
> In only his second year in the league he advanced to the ECF and would have gone on to the Finals had he not gotten injured. In his third year he LED Miami - with the help from his teammates and an ok Shaq (who was good but not dominant anymore) - to the championship.
> 
> ...


"What's wrong with you?" I thought the reason to come here is to talk basketball with people of different opinions.
Does it really bother you who I think is great?
You said it yourself he showed signs as a rookie.
I'm not taking away his championship ring hombre.

_You can talk all day about how Dallas choked, but fact is that Wade had to play ridiculous basketball in those Finals to beat them.
What else does he have to do to prove to you that he is a great player?
_

He was ballin out of his mind in the Finals rightfully winning Finals MVP.
Is every finals MVP a great player? 
Going by that logic Chauncy Billups is great.


----------



## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

BDB said:


> "What's wrong with you?" I thought the reason to come here is to talk basketball with people of different opinions.
> Does it really bother you who I think is great?
> You said it yourself he showed signs as a rookie.
> I'm not taking away his championship ring hombre.
> ...


Wait so you're saying he's not a great player in today's league? Or was I right with the all-time thing?


----------



## BDB (Dec 19, 2006)

Damn I know it's early but great is great is great. Just like a HOF player is a HOF player.
Just that simple I don't do the great for today stuff takes away from the truly great ones.


----------



## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

rocketeer said:


> really? so kobe didn't play for those lakers teams?


devin george played for those lakers too. Were they his team?


----------



## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

Shaoxia said:


> What is wrong with you? You are either a hater or you haven't followed basketball for too long. You don't want to give Wade the stamp of being a great player?
> He showed signs of being great in his rookie season when he sank the Hornets in the the 1st round and then played great basketball in the 2nd round against the Pacers who were the best team in the east that year.
> In only his second year in the league he advanced to the ECF and would have gone on to the Finals had he not gotten injured. In his third year he LED Miami - with the help from his teammates and an ok Shaq (who was good but not dominant anymore) - to the championship.
> You can talk all day about how Dallas choked, but fact is that Wade had to play ridiculous basketball in those Finals to beat them.
> ...


People thought Penny Hardaway and Grant Hill would be hall of famers, with good reason. It's not a stretch to want to wait a few years to crown somebody with that title.


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## Shaoxia (Dec 5, 2007)

BDB said:


> "What's wrong with you?" I thought the reason to come here is to talk basketball with people of different opinions.
> Does it really bother you who I think is great?
> You said it yourself he showed signs as a rookie.
> I'm not taking away his championship ring hombre.
> ...


Yeah, we can talk basketball here, but I want to make sure I'm not wasting my time with you. There are so many haters, trolls, baiters and people who have never played basketball in their lives on these boards that I want to avoid.
Being objective, among players in the league with less than 6 years of experience, who has done more great things than Wade? LeBron, maybe, if you prefer him over Wade. You may say that you only consider players as great when they've proven themselves for over 8 years or so, then that's an opinion I have to accept.
The point with the Finals performance is absolutely legit. It's not only about winning the MVP, it's about the performance. You know very well that Chauncey Billups didn't play on Wade's level and that people were saying they should give the MVP to the whole team (which would have been kind of crazy, so they chose Billups). In contrast, the 06 Finals were the Dwyane Wade show.
Not every Finals MVP is a great player. But everybody who performs like Wade has since his first year in the playoffs is great.
I cannot judge the future, but what Wade has done so far in the playoffs is nothing short of historical greatness. If you need to see a few more years of the same greatness to approve it, then I cannot argue against it.


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## Shaoxia (Dec 5, 2007)

Sliccat said:


> People thought Penny Hardaway and Grant Hill would be hall of famers, with good reason. It's not a stretch to want to wait a few years to crown somebody with that title.


I didn't say Wade was a lock for the hall of fame. Let him do his thing for a few more years and he will be, though.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

BDB said:


> "What's wrong with you?" I thought the reason to come here is to talk basketball with people of different opinions.
> Does it really bother you who I think is great?
> You said it yourself he showed signs as a rookie.
> I'm not taking away his championship ring hombre.
> ...


Wade's perfomance in the Finals far outshined that of Chauncey Billups...


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

> 13 straight? Nah man, no excuses. Wade drops a few notches.


completely agree. thirteen straight in the east in unacceptable. now imagine if he were in the wild wild west, like Kobe. the heat would probably be on a 25-30 game slide. if people here want to jock him as being close to LeBron or Kobe (who both goes to the wall for wins, injury or not), then some explanation has to be found for this unfortunate situation. and there is none.

earlier, I made a post agreeing with afobme's comment that Wade is close to Kobe. looking back, that post was an error. I remembered the Olympics. 10-0 with Kobe, no Wade. bronze medal with him. also he cannot carry a team like Kobe can, as is being proved this season, and was proved in past seasons when Shaquille O'Neal was out.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

> earlier, I made a post agreeing with afobme's comment that Wade is close to Kobe. looking back, that post was an error. I remembered the Olympics. 10-0 with Kobe, no Wade. bronze medal with him. also he cannot carry a team like Kobe can, as is being proved this season, and was proved in past seasons when Shaquille O'Neal was out.


This absolutely the dumbest paragraph I've read in my entire time here.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

sherako said:


> completely agree. thirteen straight in the east in unacceptable. now imagine if he were in the wild wild west, like Kobe. the heat would probably be on a 25-30 game slide. if people here want to jock him as being close to LeBron or Kobe (who both goes to the wall for wins, injury or not), then some explanation has to be found for this unfortunate situation. and there is none.
> 
> earlier, I made a post agreeing with afobme's comment that Wade is close to Kobe. looking back, that post was an error. I remembered the Olympics. 10-0 with Kobe, no Wade. bronze medal with him. also he cannot carry a team like Kobe can, as is being proved this season, and was proved in past seasons when Shaquille O'Neal was out.


Is Tim Duncan a bad leader because he sucked in the Olympics?


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## iversonfan 349 (Oct 15, 2006)

The reason he is haveing a bad year is because hes injured and hes on a bad team.


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

wow 15 pages of arguing i wonder what the recurring argument is 
cuz it seems to have nothing to do with the topic now


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Sliccat said:


> devin george played for those lakers too. Were they his team?


yes.

when i said kobe's team won 3 titles, i wasn't trying to imply that kobe was the team but that kobe was on the team. in the same sense i could say the george's team won 3 titles as well. hey and if i use some heatlunatic logic, wade won't have reached george's level as a winner until he wins 3 titles!!!!!


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

double postish.


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

rocketeer said:


> yes.
> 
> when i said kobe's team won 3 titles, i wasn't trying to imply that kobe was the team but that kobe was on the team. in the same sense i could say the george's team won 3 titles as well. hey and if i use some heatlunatic logic, wade won't have reached george's level as a winner until he wins 3 titles!!!!!


For the last time...get back to me when Bron, Kobe and McGrady land Rings/Finals MVP's as #1 options!

None of them have ever been *the man* on a championship team and nothing you say is going to change that!:biggrin:


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

HEATLUNATIC said:


> For the last time...get back to me when Bron, Kobe and McGrady land Rings/Finals MVP's as #1 options!
> 
> None of them have ever been *the man* on a championship team and nothing you say is going to change that!:biggrin:


in the playoffs the year of the 2nd lakers title, kobe took 358 shots while shaq took 344 shots.
in the playoffs the year of the 3rd lakers title, kobe took 431 shots while shaq took 384 shots.

not that it necessarily means anything, but it's dumb to pretend kobe wasn't just as important to those teams as shaq was.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

rocketeer said:


> in the playoffs the year of the 2nd lakers title, kobe took 358 shots while shaq took 344 shots.
> in the playoffs the year of the 3rd lakers title, kobe took 431 shots while shaq took 384 shots.
> 
> not that it necessarily means anything, but it's dumb to pretend kobe wasn't just as important to those teams as shaq was.


No, it proves that Kobe Bryant took more shots than Shaquille O'Neal during their 2001 and 2002 playoff runs.

But given among other things that O'Neal was named Finals MVP all three years of the Los Angeles Lakers' three-peat (and led the team in scoring all three years despite Bryant taking more shots in two of those years) it's fair to say Shaq was the primary weapon on those teams.

As for Dwyane Wade and how his star looks now, some people needed to wake up and realize that the Miami Heat was built only for a two-year run when it traded for Shaquille O'Neal. Even a great player's effectiveness in relation to his team's bottom line is going to be muted when his teammates are in serious decline with no other quality player on the roster. Not to mention Wade still is struggling through injuries.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

sherako said:


> completely agree. thirteen straight in the east in unacceptable. now imagine if he were in the wild wild west, like Kobe. the heat would probably be on a 25-30 game slide. if people here want to jock him as being close to LeBron or Kobe (who both goes to the wall for wins, injury or not), then some explanation has to be found for this unfortunate situation. and there is none.
> 
> earlier, I made a post agreeing with afobme's comment that Wade is close to Kobe. looking back, that post was an error. I remembered the Olympics. 10-0 with Kobe, no Wade. bronze medal with him. also he cannot carry a team like Kobe can, as is being proved this season, and was proved in past seasons when Shaquille O'Neal was out.


I'm not wasting my time writing a reasonable reply to this trash post.
If you really think like that you should probably sit down in a corner and think for a while..


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Cosign NAB's post.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

NewAgeBaller said:


> I'm not wasting my time writing a reasonable reply to this trash post.
> If you really think like that you should probably sit down in a corner and think for a while..


I agree. I never understood the logic of "I have to validate ABC Player by trashing XYZ Player." Kobe Bryant's game should stand on its own measure, not at the expense of Dwyane Wade's. Not to mention basketball is a team sport, where the bottom line is largely affected by the quality of play by the entire team.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Wade is coming off two operations. I take it many of you haven't had serious operations. And the effect it has on your body, and mind. It' take a full year to recover if not more. A prime example is Tony Allen from the Celtics. Look at him play basketball these days. He misses wide open lay ups time from time, because he's not sure his leg will hold up if he goes hard. If any of you watched Wade pre-injury you will be able to see his Health isn't even close to 100 percent.


Agreed, im recovering from an achilles tendon tear and it will be almost a year before I can get back to my nba all-star level


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Yeah, this thread should've never been created just for the fact that Wade is not 100% yet. 

I'm just wondering if there's a player in the league who could withstand being on a poor team without this kind of thread. If Wade, everybody's golden boy, is susceptible to it, noone's safe.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

_Dre_ said:


> Yeah, this thread should've never been created just for the fact that Wade is not 100% yet.
> 
> I'm just wondering if there's a player in the league who could withstand being on a poor team without this kind of thread. If Wade, everybody's golden boy, is susceptible to it, noone's safe.


Ever since Wade won a championship he's had his fair share of hate. D-Whistle anyone?

But really, what more can Wade do for the Heat. If you watched the game tonight, you'd see that there's nothing that can be done. I mean, the Heat led at the half 52-49. And we lose by 7 because we only scored 38 points in the 2nd half. 32 of those points were Dwyane Wade's, including our last 18 points in the game. Wade did all of this on 17-29 shooting (1-3 from 3) and 5-6 FT. With 6 rebounds, 7 assists, 4 turnovers, 3 fouls, 3 steals, and a block in 40:13 played. And he guarded Lebron well in the last 6 minutes of the game. He has no help whatsoever. Haslem did his thing, and no one else played well. You can't win games like that.

http://www.nba.com/games/20080121/CLEMIA/boxscore.html


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

If you watched Wade against the Cavs tonight, this issue should be completely solved for you.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

Wade tonight in 40 minutes;

42 Points (17-29 FG)
7 Assists
3 Steals
1 Block

The Heat scored 38 second half points, 32 were from Wade, including our last 18..

Anyone still want to blame this guy? Maybe he's being selfish and his leadership isn't up to your standards?


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

NewAgeBaller said:


> Anyone still want to blame this guy? Maybe he's being selfish and his leadership isn't up to your standards?


obviously wade doesn't deserve to be blamed but neither did kobe, tmac, lebron, and others when they have been blamed for their teams failures.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HEATLUNATIC said:


> For the last time...get back to me when Bron, Kobe and McGrady land Rings/Finals MVP's as #1 options!
> 
> None of them have ever been *the man* on a championship team and nothing you say is going to change that!:biggrin:


This is stupid. Being the 1st option on one of the worst (if not the worst) NBA champions in the past 20+ years is really not any more impressive than being a 30ppg 2nd option and primary playmaker (assists leader) on one of the best teams in the past 20+ years like Kobe was. It's ironic that Bryant is so heavily criticized for not being able to play within the team concept, and for his inability to be a roleplayer, because he is probably the best sidekick/roleplayer the league has ever seen for the work he did with Shaquille early in his career. 

And make no mistake, those 2000-2002 Lakers teams would wipe the floor with the 2006 Miami Heat.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> This is stupid. Being the 1st option on one of the worst (if not the worst) NBA champions in the past 20+ years is really not any more impressive than being a 30ppg 2nd option and primary playmaker (assists leader) on one of the best teams in the past 20+ years like Kobe was. It's ironic that Bryant is so heavily criticized for not being able to play within the team concept, and for his inability to be a roleplayer, because he is probably the best sidekick/roleplayer the league has ever seen for the work he did with Shaquille early in his career.
> 
> And make no mistake, those 2000-2002 Lakers teams would wipe the floor with the 2006 Miami Heat.


Haven't seen your dose of sense in a while.

And to add, with Shaq Kobe was able to balance his offensive and defensive game. He would have Wade locked up pretty tight.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

You can probably make an argument that if Kobe is on the Heat instead of Wade, then the Heat might win a couple more games. Everyone else though, I just can't see another SG in the league that can do more than Wade, either stat wise, or for his team.

The last time I checked, best (or 2nd best) SG means that if you gather every SG that is in the NBA, this guy would be ranked #1 (or #2). That statement stays true no matter how many games the Heat is winning, as long as you can't find anyone that, without any doubt, can do a better job than Wade is doing for the Heat.

If this thread is entirely about Kobe vs. Wade, it shouldn't be 16 pages long. Both are great players and either side shouldn't feel insulted if people feel one is better than the other.


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## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

rocketeer said:


> obviously wade doesn't deserve to be blamed but neither did kobe, tmac, lebron, and others when they have been blamed for their teams failures.


I can agree with that, they arn't to blame but it happens.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

to all those people dissing my post, I don't give a damn about you. 

what I give a damn about, is *the game. *

and Wade's Heat aren't getting it done in the weak east. fourteen straight. 

ain't no coming back from that. and I genuinely enjoy seeing the guy play. but when it comes down to it, there are those who make excuses, and then there are those who do what is necessary.


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> This is stupid. *Being the 1st option on one of the worst (if not the worst) NBA champions in the past 20+ years* is really not any more impressive than being a 30ppg 2nd option and primary playmaker (assists leader) on one of the best teams in the past 20+ years like Kobe was. It's ironic that Bryant is so heavily criticized for not being able to play within the team concept, and for his inability to be a roleplayer, because he is probably the best sidekick/roleplayer the league has ever seen for the work he did with Shaquille early in his career.


Thanks for proving my point! Almost everyone in the rotation was at the end of their career and Wade (damn near singlehandedly) carried them to the promised land!

Bron, Kobe and McGrady are still trying...



> *And make no mistake, those 2000-2002 Lakers teams would wipe the floor with the 2006 Miami Heat.*


Exactly!!!

Shaq Kong in his prime was one of the top 3 players in NBA history. Unlike Shaq in LA and Wade in Miami...Kobe has *never* been the man!


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Thanks for proving my point! Almost everyone in the rotation was at the end of their career and Wade (damn near singlehandedly) carried them to the promised land!
> 
> Bron, Kobe and McGrady are still trying...
> 
> ...


You really are taking after your name.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

He means he has never been the man on a Championship team I believe...which if so, is true. Kobe was probably the best second banana (equal with Pippen actually) for getting championships. However, he hasnt yet lead a team to the finals and won as the number 1 guy. Thats just fact.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HEATLUNATIC said:


> Thanks for proving my point! Almost everyone in the rotation was at the end of their career and Wade (damn near singlehandedly) carried them to the promised land!


You're not understanding. Miami, *with* Wade playing his top basketball, is still one of the worst champions ever. That means he would *not* have been able to carry him to the promised land in probably any other year I can think of. 



HEATLUNATIC said:


> Shaq Kong in his prime was one of the top 3 players in NBA history. Unlike Shaq in LA and Wade in Miami...Kobe has *never* been the man!


And Wade, unlike Kobe, has never been an extremely important part of a historically great basketball team. Wade, unlike Kobe, has only one ring that people sometimes forget simply because of how unimpressive that team was. Kobe, unlike Wade, has 3 rings that seem unforgettable because those Lakers teams that Kobe was such a big part of would likely wipe the floor with any champion in the past 20 years outside of the Bulls.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> You're not understanding. Miami, *with* Wade playing his top basketball, is still one of the worst champions ever. That means he would *not* have been able to carry him to the promised land in probably any other year I can think of.
> 
> 
> 
> And Wade, unlike Kobe, has never been an extremely important part of a historically great basketball team. Wade, unlike Kobe, has only one ring that people sometimes forget simply because of how unimpressive that team was. Kobe, unlike Wade, has 3 rings that seem unforgettable because those Lakers teams that Kobe was such a big part of would likely wipe the floor with any champion in the past 20 years outside of the Bulls.


And even then I think they could at least split with the bulls, if not edge them out.

Shaq was on another planet, Kobe was unstoppable, and they had great roleplayers and defenders. It wasn't rare for Scottie to disappear for stretches in playoff games, and when it boils down to it, as great as Jordan was, it's hard to take a dominant SG/SF combo over a dominant C/SG combo.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

BG44 said:


> He means he has never been the man on a Championship team I believe...which if so, is true. Kobe was probably the best second banana (equal with Pippen actually) for getting championships. However, he hasnt yet lead a team to the finals and won as the number 1 guy. Thats just fact.


Kobe Bryant may have been the second banana on the three-peat Lakers earlier this decade, but the spread between him and Shaquille O'Neal was much closer than the one between Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen. Pippen was a complementary player who had more than his fair share of games where he struggled in the clutch; Bryant was a player who at times was as dominant as Shaq.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

But they were both still second bananas - just Kobe is more capable of taking over games offensively than Pippen. Bulls did win 6 championships, that makes him on same level as Kobe in regards to input too championships.

Kobe is definately capable of leading a team to the championship though.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> You're not understanding. Miami, *with* Wade playing his top basketball, is still one of the worst champions ever. That means he would *not* have been able to carry him to the promised land in probably any other year I can think of.


That's horrible reasoning. They were supposed to get beat by every team we played that year. Chicago - Jersey - Detroit - Dallas...nobody could win more than 2 games on us!

Wade played at a level that few can ever say they were at in the Finals and/or postseason. Down 0-2, winning 4 straight.

Were we a legendary team like the 90s Bulls, Lakers three peat, or Celtics back in the day? No - we weren't a dynasty by any means (if this and last year aren't solid proof to that). But we got healthy, and got hot at the right time. That team was significantly worse than the Pistons team that beat LA? The Spurs team that won in the lockout year? You're just pulling bold statements out to make arguments


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

DQ for 3 said:


> That's horrible reasoning. They were supposed to get beat by every team we played that year. Chicago - Jersey - Detroit - Dallas...nobody could win more than 2 games on us!


The Bulls were not supposed to beat the Heat that year. They were the underdog cinderella story that gave the defending champs a run for their money but came up short like everyone expected. Nobody ever thinks the Nets will win an important series except Nets fans. 

I'll give it to you the the Pistons and Mavericks were probably both favored against Miami, but I attribute them losing more to collapses on their part than phenominal play on Miami's part. That may seem unfair to Miami fans, but I look at their follow-up playoff performances (Dallas 1st round against GS, Pistons losing 4 straight to LeBron) as reassurance that those two teams are vulnerable to collapsing in the playoffs. 

This is not a knock on Wade. He is a top 5 player no questions asked when he is healthy. I'm just saying it's pretty stupid to act like him leading the Heat to a title in a mediocre year (at best) is what puts him over Kobe just because Kobe has never done that exact thing. I'm pretty sure that being the primary ball-handler, primary play-maker, primary distributor on top of throwing up 25-30ppg and closing out games (since Shaq's FT's kept the ball out of his hands) on a historically great team that won 3 titles in a row is just as impressive, if not more impressive.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> The Bulls were not supposed to beat the Heat that year. They were the underdog cinderella story that gave the defending champs a run for their money but came up short like everyone expected. Nobody ever thinks the Nets will win an important series except Nets fans.
> 
> I'll give it to you the the Pistons and Mavericks were probably both favored against Miami, but I attribute them losing more to collapses on their part than phenominal play on Miami's part. That may seem unfair to Miami fans, but I look at their follow-up playoff performances (Dallas 1st round against GS, Pistons losing 4 straight to LeBron) as reassurance that those two teams are vulnerable to collapsing in the playoffs.
> 
> This is not a knock on Wade. He is a top 5 player no questions asked when he is healthy. I'm just saying it's pretty stupid to act like him leading the Heat to a title in a mediocre year (at best) is what puts him over Kobe just because Kobe has never done that exact thing. I'm pretty sure that being the primary ball-handler, primary play-maker, primary distributor on top of throwing up 25-30ppg and closing out games (since Shaq's FT's kept the ball out of his hands) on a historically great team that won 3 titles in a row is just as impressive, if not more impressive.


I'm arguing your logic more than your actually point in this thread. I won't argue that Wade is better than Kobe, he isn't right now, and who knows if he will ever reach that level in his career (hopefully). 

But, as far as that postseason went. After the Bulls got us to 2-2, the "experts" were picking us to lose. The Nets series was supposed to go their way after they killed us game 1, well, we won 4 straight. Many experts picked the Nets from the beginning because of Kidd/Carter/RJ. That's all I'm disagreeing on.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

BG44 said:


> But they were both still second bananas - just Kobe is more capable of taking over games offensively than Pippen. Bulls did win 6 championships, that makes him on same level as Kobe in regards to input too championships.


Chicago was able to win six championships in eight years because Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen played together longer than Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant did. But that's besides the point ... Bryant is a better player than Pippen was; in fact, it's fair to say that by the Lakers' second title that Bryant was better than Pippen at his best (much less that Bryant had more upside potential).


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Still - 6 championships. Just because Bryant is a far better individual player, doesnt make him the better team player. Pippen was a very unselfish player and has 6 rings that he played a major role in, Bryant has 3 he played a major role in before the window closed on Shaq and his partnership.

Kobe is a terrfic talent though, and is a better player than Pippen was. But 6 > 3.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

BG44 said:


> Still - 6 championships. Just because Bryant is a far better individual player, doesnt make him the better team player. Pippen was a very unselfish player and has 6 rings that he played a major role in, Bryant has 3 he played a major role in before the window closed on Shaq and his partnership.
> 
> Kobe is a terrfic talent though, and is a better player than Pippen was. But 6 > 3.


Yet somehow wades 1 is better than kobe's 3?


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

I never said that. I said that Wade was the number 1 guy when leading his team to the championship. Kobe wasnt. 

3 > 1 no matter which way u slice it, but that 1 was pretty special. He averaged something like 35ppg in the SERIES.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

number of titles an individual player has won is almost meaningless in comparing that player to another unless they turn basketball into a one on one game.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

*C'mon, Scottie Pippen is clearly inferior to Kobe Bryant*



BG44 said:


> Still - 6 championships. Just because Bryant is a far better individual player, doesnt make him the better team player. Pippen was a very unselfish player and has 6 rings that he played a major role in, Bryant has 3 he played a major role in before the window closed on Shaq and his partnership.
> 
> Kobe is a terrfic talent though, and is a better player than Pippen was. But 6 > 3.


Of course Scottie Pippen played on six championship teams -- he played a support role to arguably the greatest player in NBA history in Michael Jordan. Pippen didn't have the ability to carry the load of a primary player (as seen with the Jordan-less Bulls, then in Houston and Portland). He was clearly a complementary player, while Kobe Bryant was more of a 1A to Shaquille O'Neal's 1 during the Lakers' three-peat. 

No point in giving Pippen any more credit than that, IMO. Also, Pippen wasn't exactly the greatest player as a teammate throughout his career (as seen by his constant bickering with management in Chicago, a one-time resentment of Jordan's stature earlier in his career, his lack of leadership yet wanting all the accolades accompanying them at all his stops, his whining vs. Charles Barkley in Houston to force a trade to Portland).


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Kobe was the second banana though. It was Shaqs team. 

What you said on Pippen is all correct however, he held his jealously together long enough to get 6 rings. Kobe couldnt hold it that long.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

BG44 said:


> Kobe was the second banana though. It was Shaqs team.
> 
> What you said on Pippen is all correct however, he held his jealously together long enough to get 6 rings. Kobe couldnt hold it that long.


Those are the consequences when you have a player who is capable of being the top player on a team and coming into his own as a dominant player (Kobe Bryant). That's different from having a player who wanted the accolades of a top player but continually proved he was only as good as whoever was on his team (Scottie Pippen), i.e. a (good but overrated) complementary player.

Also, keep in mind that Shaquille O'Neal is six years older than Bryant, compared to Michael Jordan and Pippen (who were two years apart in age) -- it's fair to say that Bryant and Shaq would not have won six titles together any way given their age differential (Shaq was starting his decline in his final season with the Lakers).


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## Brandname (May 24, 2006)

Wade when healthy can compete with anyone in the league. Right now, I don't even consider this the real Dwyane Wade (even though he set fire to my Cavs to the tune of 30 pts in the second half the other day). 

But yeah, Kobe has to be #1 right now, probably even above a healthy Wade. But Wade isn't far behind at #2, and it's a very large dropoff after that.


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

BG44 said:


> 3 > 1 no matter which way u slice it, but that 1 was pretty special. He averaged something like 35ppg in the SERIES.


1.) Basketball is a TEAM sport, not an individual one. A team needs several quality players to compete for a title -- I don't care if a team has a player the caliber of a Kobe Bryant or a Dwyane Wade, a Bryant or Wade can't win one if the other players are not good.

2.) I agree with the above statement about Wade -- he's one of the best players in the NBA. He averaged 34.7 points, 7.8 rebounds, 3.8 assists and 2.67 steals per game in the 2006 Finals. But even a player like Wade cannot win consistently if the rest of his teammates are below-average (and that includes an in-decline Shaquille O'Neal).


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

All fair points Najee, and point taken. I agree completely. But thats not to say Wade didnt lead his team to the tital, or that Shaq didnt lead his Laker teams to the titles they won - basketball is a team game, and they all had a lot of help.


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## -33- (Aug 6, 2002)

Najee said:


> 1.) Basketball is a TEAM sport, not an individual one. A team needs several quality players to compete for a title -- I don't care if a team has a player the caliber of a Kobe Bryant or a Dwyane Wade, a Bryant or Wade can't win one if the other players are not good.
> 
> 2.) I agree with the above statement about Wade -- he's one of the best players in the NBA. He averaged 34.7 points, 7.8 rebounds, 3.8 assists and 2.67 steals per game in the 2006 Finals. But even a player like Wade cannot win consistently if the rest of his teammates are below-average (and that includes an in-decline Shaquille O'Neal).


Hard to argue anything the man said :cheers:


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

Najee said:


> He averaged 34.7 points, 7.8 rebounds, 3.8 assists and 2.67 steals per game in the 2006 Finals.


Wade single handedly ended the heavy favorited Mavs hopes of a title. I think that merits a pass for his horrible TEAM's performance. Not to mention he's still hampered by injury, but somehow manages to maintain good numbers with no help. Why blame Wade? Blame Shaq.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

Heated said:


> Wade single handedly ended the heavy favorited Mavs hopes of a title. I think that merits a pass for his horrible TEAM's performance. Not to mention he's still hampered by injury, but somehow manages to maintain good numbers with no help. Why blame Wade? Blame Shaq.


the mavs scored more than 35 points per game, so i would have to say wade didn't exactly do anything single handedly.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

rocketeer said:


> the mavs scored more than 35 points per game, so i would have to say wade didn't exactly do anything single handedly.


You're right, the majority of the help from that team is no longer with the heat. And the ones that are have taken a major nose dive, save Haslem.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Heated said:


> Wade single handedly ended the heavy favorited Mavs hopes of a title. I think that merits a pass for his horrible TEAM's performance. Not to mention he's still hampered by injury, but somehow manages to maintain good numbers with no help. Why blame Wade? Blame Shaq.



Thats the point though isnt it? The whole "Wade is still hampered by injury" should have him labled as injury prone by now. No matter how good he is healthy, he is injury prone, and in so, is not on the same level as Kobe Bryant.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

R-Star said:


> Thats the point though isnt it? The whole "Wade is still hampered by injury" should have him labled as injury prone by now. No matter how good he is healthy, he is injury prone, and in so, is not on the same level as Kobe Bryant.


He just had one really bad/freak shoulder injury. Riley said it was a reverse dislocation, and that he had nerve damage in one of the worst shoulder injuries they'd seen. He's still recovering from the side effects of it (namely the knee).


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## Najee (Apr 5, 2007)

R-Star said:


> Thats the point though isnt it? The whole "Wade is still hampered by injury" should have him labled as injury prone by now. No matter how good he is healthy, he is injury prone, and in so, is not on the same level as Kobe Bryant.


"Not on the same level" implies that there is a drop-off between Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade -- that is inaccurate. Both are on a short list of being arguably the best player in the NBA game-in and game-out, and on any given day either one is the best player in the league. A clear drop-off would be between, say, Bryant and Jason Richardson.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

R-Star said:


> Thats the point though isnt it? The whole "Wade is still hampered by injury" should have him labled as injury prone by now. No matter how good he is healthy, he is injury prone, and in so, is not on the same level as Kobe Bryant.


an unhealthy Wade isn't as good as Kobe I agree. But when healthy, it's reaaally close, and at one point (after dragging his team to a championship) I had considered him #1. He was also topping the league statistically the following year before he hurt his shoulder.


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