# LeBron/Cavs choking again.



## Carbo04

They were up by about 20 earlier. But now that the 4th quarter has come around Chi-Town has made a great comeback and tied the game. You can look at the Cavs and tell they are just mentally out of it at this point. This is were LeBron being how great he's suppose to be needs to step up.


----------



## reHEATed

im starting to agree---- Lebron is great, but these meltdowns cant happen


----------



## futuristxen

Don't you have a bridge you should be tending to? I heard there were some billy goats trying to cross it. QUICK!! You might still be able to catch them.


----------



## Carbo04

futuristxen said:


> Don't you have a bridge you should be tending to? I heard there were some billy goats trying to cross it. QUICK!! You might still be able to catch them.



Hey, this isn't the Cavs forum. It aint trollin. Truth hurt? LeBrick missed another clutch free throw.


----------



## Coatesvillain

I swear, if I'm playing Cleveland and the game is close near the end.. I'm fouling Lebron and sending him to the line. He's Shaq like from the line in the final five minutes.


----------



## reHEATed

rough call for chandler and the bulls right there


----------



## Greg Ostertag!

Comedy _is_ humorous.


----------



## Carbo04

Stupid offensive foul by 'King' James.


----------



## reHEATed

big block by James and then a basket on the other end....very nice play be lebron


----------



## Carbo04

It's about time he did something right.


----------



## Carbo04

Flip Murray = More clutch than LeBron.



Nice almost turnover by the 'King'.


----------



## futuristxen

Carbo04 said:


> Hey, this isn't the Cavs forum. It aint trollin. Truth hurt? LeBrick missed another clutch free throw.


There's 3 game threads on bbb.net to discuss this. One on the Cavs board, one on the Bulls board, and one on the main board.


----------



## DuMa

Sideshow Bob ****ed Upth Game


----------



## reHEATed

He passed up the winning shot again----- it was a solid pass and his teammate got fouled, but he has a tendency to do this and Lebron needs to become more assertive


----------



## big furb

Here's lebrons chance to put all the criticism to rest, a 3 will send it to OT. He's the guy, he's gotta either make the shot or get a 3 point shooter a wide open shot


----------



## VC_15

What's happening to LBJ!!!, i know he's unselfish but man shoot the damn ball at the end of game and especially when it's close like that. WTF is he doing, i love the guy but they're putting the ball in your hands, do something.


----------



## Ron Mexico

flip muray's clutch >>>>>>>> lebron LOL


----------



## reHEATed

Murray!


----------



## Carbo04

He's too much of a punk to shoot the ball. He knows he'll brick it. So he figures if another teammates misses someone else will get the blame.


WOW!! Flip Murray!!! Two clutch shots. He should teach LeHype how to do it.


----------



## VC_15

FLip Murray with the 3!!!!!!!!!!!!!, i guess lebron did good after all by dishing to the open man, if flip didn't make that shot, LBJ would've been killed by the media tomorow.


----------



## JRose5

Lil' Flip is clutch.

Horrible play there by the Bulls at the end, I don't think Noch is the guy you want to run the play through in that situation.


----------



## Carbo04

What was that by Nocioni? Oh well. LeHype should give his salary for this game to Flip for saving his ***.


----------



## DuMa

I always knew Flip Murray had game. he just needed a starting role chance.


----------



## futuristxen




----------



## reHEATed

that was one of the worst final plays ive ever seen.........give the ball to Nocioni?

with gordon on your team?

anyway, nice win by the cavs. This is a confidence builder, and saved them total embarassment giving up that 15 pt lead in the 4th


----------



## maswe12

Lebron got bailed out by a bulls team that found more ways to lose than lebron did.


----------



## JRose5

wadeshaqeddie said:


> that was one of the worst final plays ive ever seen.........give the ball to Nocioni?
> 
> with gordon on your team?
> 
> anyway, nice win by the cavs. This is a confidence builder, and saved them total embarassment giving up that 15 pt lead in the 4th



Well the play was designed to get it to Gordon, but it was horribly executed.
I don't even like using Noch as a middle man on that play, he's not the player I want making decisions in that situation.
Ugly.


----------



## futuristxen

Flip was huge down the stretch. Huge win, because Chicago is the 8th seed, and so this is like two wins . A huge step toward the playoffs for the Cavs. Also getting the tie breaker on Chicago I believe. Which makes it like a 3 game swing.

Flip was a huge aquisition by Danny Ferry. He got him for Mike Wilks and got a higher second rounder with Flip. Basically got him for free and got a bigger secound round pick for his troubles.


----------



## The MAMBA

Lil Flip is the Cavs best player since joining the squad. I always knew he was a player since Ray Allen was injured that one year. I think he has more game than Hughes.


----------



## PauloCatarino

Carbo04 said:


> He's too much of a punk to shoot the ball. He knows he'll brick it. So he figures if another teammates misses someone else will get the blame.
> 
> 
> WOW!! Flip Murray!!! Two clutch shots. He should teach LeHype how to do it.


Your hate keeps me warm, Carbo04. Keep it up! :cheers:


----------



## Tragedy

Kobe gets killed for not passing up the game winner, and Lebron gets killed for not taking it. Oy Vey!


----------



## GTA Addict

LeBron's 3rd career "game-winning assist", if you can call it that.


----------



## The MAMBA

LeBron put up great numbers, but was pretty ineffective as usual in the clutch. Props to Flip. Bulls with an idiotic last play.


----------



## futuristxen

Oh also. The Bulls would have won this game if they had Eddy Curry and Antonio Davis. **** the Brave New World, this ain't 1984 and you're not Big Brother Johnny Pax. I hope you like lottery balls, you *****.

Remember Remember the 5th of November


----------



## Carbo04

PauloCatarino said:


> Your hate keeps me warm, Carbo04. Keep it up! :cheers:


Until LeBron proves he's worth the hype, I shall.


----------



## reHEATed

JRose5 said:


> Well the play was designed to get it to Gordon, but it was horribly executed.
> I don't even like using Noch as a middle man on that play, he's not the player I want making decisions in that situation.
> Ugly.


why would a play be designed to get a handoff at the 3 pt line with the clock near zero

if they wanted gordon to get the ball, it should of been direct. 3 seconds is enough to get the ball and drive or create a jumpshot


----------



## futuristxen

Carbo04 said:


> Until LeBron proves he's worth the hype, I shall.


What hype? We just sat through 2 hours of constant LeBash. The hype is in your mind. Charles always disses Lebron. Kenny was dissing Lebron. Artest was dissing Lebron. Reggie Miller was dissing Lebron. Doug Collins was dissing Lebron. I'm sure Michael Jordan was dissing Lebron. What hype? Ric Bucher and Marc Stein always are dissing Lebron. Marc Stein wanted Darko and Melo to be drafted ahead of Lebron. Who is hyping Lebron?


----------



## Like A Breath

Those passes to AV and Flip were the right plays. They were wide open when they got the ball, that's just good basketball. Reggie is obviously a LeBron-hater, so you can't take him seriously. The same people that are complaining about LeBron passing are the same people saying he should pattern himself after Oscar/Magic.


----------



## DuMa

nocioni with the last shot, scott skiles WTF


----------



## The MAMBA

futuristxen said:


> Remember Remember the 5th of November


What's special bout the Fifth of November?


----------



## futuristxen

Oh yeah, and Scott Skiles draws up another "winner". I haven't watched the Bulls much this season out of moral obligation. But I see he is still drawing up the worst game winning plays in the league. He makes Mike Brown look like a genius.

Seriously, what the **** kind of play is a hand off with 3 seconds when you are only down 1? Give the ball to either Gordon or Hinrich and clear the side.


----------



## futuristxen

The MAMBA said:


> What's special bout the Fifth of November?


Guy Fawkes tried to blow up british parliment. Read the book V For Vendetta. Then I guess you can watch the movie. But read the book, it's ****ing awesome. It's like 1984 but with a dude fighting big brother.


----------



## JRose5

wadeshaqeddie said:


> why would a play be designed to get a handoff at the 3 pt line with the clock near zero
> 
> if they wanted gordon to get the ball, it should of been direct. 3 seconds is enough to get the ball and drive or create a jumpshot


I agree they should have gotten ball straight to Ben, I don't want the ball anywhere near Noch in that situation.
It looked like the play was to get it into Noch and run Ben off a screen, and there as plenty of time to do that if he had gotten through, which he didn't. Rather then recognize this, Nocioni stood there with a dumb look on his face until there was a second and a half left.

Not good.


----------



## The MAMBA

futuristxen said:


> Who is hyping Lebron?


Are you actually being serious? You're saying LeBron isn't hyped? He has been damn near coined the best player in the NBA after his first televised High School game on ESPN. Get real. Don't take the "Me against the World" approach as a LeBron fan. Everyone loves the kid, praises him, and he gets more hype than anything basketball related on this earth right now. Don't kid yourself.



~ Mr. 81


----------



## Carbo04

The MAMBA said:


> Are you actually being serious? You're saying LeBron isn't hyped? He has been damn near coined the best player in the NBA after his first televised High School game on ESPN. Get real. Don't take the "Me against the World" approach as a LeBron fan. Everyone loves the kid, praises him, and he gets more hype than anything basketball related on this earth right now. Don't kid yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> ~ Mr. 81



/Rep.


----------



## PauloCatarino

futuristxen said:


> What hype? We just sat through 2 hours of constant LeBash. The hype is in your mind. Charles always disses Lebron. Kenny was dissing Lebron. Artest was dissing Lebron. Reggie Miller was dissing Lebron. Doug Collins was dissing Lebron. I'm sure Michael Jordan was dissing Lebron. What hype? Ric Bucher and Marc Stein always are dissing Lebron. Marc Stein wanted Darko and Melo to be drafted ahead of Lebron. Who is hyping Lebron?


Gee Wizz, what hype indeed?


----------



## The MAMBA

futuristxen said:


> Guy Fawkes tried to blow up british parliment. Read the book V For Vendetta. Then I guess you can watch the movie. But read the book, it's ****ing awesome. It's like 1984 but with a dude fighting big brother.


Yeah, V for Vendetta is the sh1t. You plan on going to the movie? I read it before, I just didn't know what you were reffering to. 1984 is one of my favorite books. The movie Equilibrium is very similar as well, but Alan Moore beats them all with "V". Alan also wrote one of the best Batman comics ever as well. Guy has mad amounts of talent.


----------



## futuristxen

The MAMBA said:


> Are you actually being serious? You're saying LeBron isn't hyped? He has been damn near coined the best player in the NBA after his first televised High School game on ESPN. Get real. Don't take the "Me against the World" approach as a LeBron fan. Everyone loves the kid, praises him, and he gets more hype than anything basketball related on this earth right now. Don't kid yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> ~ Mr. 81


Could you point me towards this hype? Because I've been inundated with a lot of negative Lebron stories as of late, and would love to start reading about how great he is instead.


----------



## futuristxen

The MAMBA said:


> Yeah, V for Vendetta is the sh1t. You plan on going to the movie? I read it before, I just didn't know what you were reffering to. 1984 is one of my favorite books. The movie Equilibrium is very similar as well, but Alan Moore beats them all with "V". Alan also wrote one of the best Batman comics ever as well. Guy has mad amounts of talent.


Alan Moore is my favorite writer. The Watchmen was damn near life changing. Have you read his Promethea ****? It's so ****ing tripped out. It's like his Swamp Thing stuff, but on acid...which says a lot. It's the most important work he's done in like 20 years. Heard he was quitting comics to become an Alicister Crowley type.


----------



## Coatesvillain

LeBron had hype the past couple years, this year he's getting the undeserved hate that Kobe was getting.


----------



## Coatesvillain

futuristxen said:


> Alan Moore is my favorite writer. The Watchmen was damn near life changing. Have you read his Promethea ****? It's so ****ing tripped out. It's like his Swamp Thing stuff, but on acid...which says a lot. It's the most important work he's done in like 20 years. Heard he was quitting comics to become an Alicister Crowley type.


I should start a Comic Book thread, in my forum.. herd up the nerds, and let them loose. I need a thorough education, I'm trying to get back in, but I was an X-Fiend growing up. I need help.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

Lebron's hype is turning against him, much like AI said a year ago said it would. People aren't satisfied with the stats, or normal team progression (assuming the Cavs again increase their win total). There is no time for Lebron to mature his game, he has to be in his prime at 21, or else people are all over his ***. 33/11/8 or whatever it was, who cares, did he hit the gamewinning shot? That's literally all people watch for, is what flaws are in his game. 

That little diatribe aside, even as a Cavs fan - I gotta agree that Flip saved Lebron's *** in this one, cause there would have been a backlash you couldn't believe. Flip is the man.


----------



## The MAMBA

futuristxen said:


> Could you point me towards this hype? Because I've been inundated with a lot of negative Lebron stories as of late, and would love to start reading about how great he is instead.


Let's see... just for starters:
~ Gets a 90 million dollar Nike contract before he even plays a game.
~ All through is first season he has analysts and commentators hanging off his nuts, calling him a hybrid of Magic and Jordan.
~ His 2nd season he is praised for improving his jumper, etc. And leading the Cavs back to respectability.
~ Recieves no personal cirticism for the Cavs monumental collapse, rather they just say LeBron needed help.
~ Is praised and glorified nighty by ESPN on highlights, etc.
~ Rarely is it ever even mentioned that he plays lackluster defense.
~ Praised for being the youngest player EVER to win the MVP award of the All-Star Game.
~ After HIS FIRST TELEVISED GAME as a SENIOR IN COLLEGE...I specifically remembering analysts and former players saying he is better than ANYBODY currently in the league.
~ The league constantly shows him in promo shots, etc. And are banking on him selling the new era for this league.
~ Has had countless SLAM, SI, and other hoop magazine covers. 

There is even more instances of hype. And if you haven't noticed any of the above, you are just refusing to call it hype. Which is incredible, because anyone with or without a brain can tell you LeBron has been hyped since late 2002. If you are saying he hasn't had hyped, you are playing ignorant and blind eye in order to further your argument that there is no hype. Sure he may recieve some critcism as of late, but its only been as of late. Even then he still gets MAD amounts of hype. The LeBron hype machine has been in effect since December of 2002 when hype started to build before he was ever officially on TV. Don't play dumb. You're smarter than that. You know he has been hyped like no other. He is expected to be the savior of the league. Replace what Mike left, where Kobe failed (personal life wise). He's the NBA's new golden boy. Who here doesn't agree?


----------



## GTA Addict

He was hyped his first season because he was the best player we had seen straight out of high school. He was hyped his second second because his team was doing well (until the collapse) and he was averaging above 27/7/7 in only his second season.

This season it's been different. LeBron's been getting bashed a lot. Seriously, who HASN'T criticized LeBron for his "choking" or "inability to carry his team"? He was bashed for not entering the dunk contest, even though he admitted point-blank that he wouldn't be good for the contest. He was also criticized for what many considered to be a selfish performance in the ASG.


----------



## The MAMBA

futuristxen said:


> Alan Moore is my favorite writer. The Watchmen was damn near life changing. Have you read his Promethea ****? It's so ****ing tripped out. It's like his Swamp Thing stuff, but on acid...which says a lot. It's the most important work he's done in like 20 years. Heard he was quitting comics to become an Alicister Crowley type.


The Watchmen is the best graphic novel, EVER. People who think Sin City was good...are going to be blown out of their mind when The Watchmen is released next year in theatres. Best graphic novel of ALL TIME. SO intellectual and deep. I have yet to get on Promethea though. I got to check that. I heard people are trying to drag him back into comics. We'll see what happens.


----------



## LOYALTY

This is still my team, the Cavaliers are still my boys.. but that 4th quarter was TERRIBLE ! 

MAny non-Cavs fans here are focusing on Lebron because that's basically all they know about this team. But I put the blame squarely on coach Mike Brown for this one. You don't let a 25 point lead slip away like that. Browns player rotations SUCK. He does not know how to carry over his first half success into the 2nd half of the game. I know Brown is a rookie coach, but he's gonna have to get it together. Damon Jones and Donyell Marshall get big minutes because I think coach Brown defers to the veterans too much sometimes (whether they are playing well or not). Verejao was rebounding his *** off tonight in the first half and sitting most of the 2nd half. Flip Murray did not have a particularly good game, but I would rather see him on the floor than Damon Jones any day.

Lebron forced the ball too much, but when he has the ball his teammates just stand around and stop moving. Eric Snow finally played like a real point guard, but his career is almost done.

YEs, I'm glad that we won, but I am NOT happy about this game.


----------



## Like A Breath

The MAMBA said:


> ~ Recieves no personal cirticism for the Cavs monumental collapse, rather they just say LeBron needed help.


Charles Barkley?
Kenny Smith?
Michael Wilbon?
Reggie Miller?


----------



## Coatesvillain

The MAMBA said:


> The Watchmen is the best graphic novel, EVER. People who think Sin City was good...are going to be blown out of their mind when The Watchmen is released next year in theatres. Best graphic novel of ALL TIME. SO intellectual and deep. I have yet to get on Promethea though. I got to check that. I heard people are trying to drag him back into comics. We'll see what happens.


Eh...

Watchmen was a phenomenal graphic novel.. but I see so many ways that they'll screw up with the translation to film.


----------



## The MAMBA

Like A Breath said:


> Charles Barkley?
> Kenny Smith?
> Michael Wilbon?
> Reggie Miller?


That was tonight. I have heard Kenny, Wilbon, and Miller all give LeBron more than enough props before. Get real.


And on a sidenote...who does Charles Barkely NOT critisize? Man acts like he is the god and know all of basketball, and usually he is wrong. He bashes, EVERYONE. Mainly due to the fact that a) he never won a title and b) is a little bit salty of what today's players earn and c) the hype that current players get. It's like he isn't in the game anymore, so therefore everything in the League is a step below where he is at because he is no longer there. He gives no one respect.


----------



## futuristxen

Coatesvillain said:


> I should start a Comic Book thread, in my forum.. herd up the nerds, and let them loose. I need a thorough education, I'm trying to get back in, but I was an X-Fiend growing up. I need help.


Even just a thread in the books forum could be good. Did you read the Wolverine Origin story? If you haven't, you need to. Since you're an X-fan.


----------



## The MAMBA

Coatesvillain said:


> Eh...
> 
> Watchmen was a phenomenal graphic novel.. but I see so many ways that they'll screw up with the translation to film.


As they do in most cases... but I mean, they did it damn well for Sin City, Road to Perdition, and Batman Begins. I'm hoping they can do it for "The Watchmen".


----------



## ENIGMATIC 1

I would hate to be in his shoes. Everybody is waiting for him to fail. It's amazing that people love to hate this guy.


----------



## futuristxen

The MAMBA said:


> That was tonight. I have heard Kenny, Wilbon, and Miller all give LeBron more than enough props before. Get real.


When have you heard Wilbon give Lebron props? He is still salty that Lebron won rookie of the year over Melo. Tony is always getting on Wilbon for his LeHate.


----------



## The MAMBA

futuristxen said:


> Even just a thread in the books forum could be good. Did you read the Wolverine Origin story? If you haven't, you need to. Since you're an X-fan.


"Origins" was awesome. That was some killer stuff. I never expected Wolverine to be that old, but it was really interesting. Good ish.


----------



## The MAMBA

futuristxen said:


> When have you heard Wilbon give Lebron props? He is still salty that Lebron won rookie of the year over Melo. Tony is always getting on Wilbon for his LeHate.


You have never seen Wilbon give LBJ props? Even if he hasn't in awhile, that doesn't negate the fact that everyone else gives him props. And they do, don't play.


----------



## Like A Breath

If you don't think Wilbon doesn't bash LeBron for not making the playoffs, you are pretty delusional. Wilbon puts Carmelo Anthony ahead of LeBron for that sole reason. He said LeBron shouldn't have won rookie of the year. Before LeBron's career even started, he said he wouldn't have even picked LeBron in the top 5.


----------



## futuristxen

The MAMBA said:


> As they do in most cases... but I mean, they did it damn well for Sin City, Road to Perdition, and Batman Begins. I'm hoping they can do it for "The Watchmen".



Watchmen needs to be like a 10 hour epic like Lord of the Rings. It can never be properly translated to film. Just like how they truncated From Hell and thus lost most of what makes it one of the true opuses of modern comics, they'll do the same to Watchmen. From Hell, how great is that book?


----------



## Banjoriddim

The MAMBA said:


> Are you actually being serious? You're saying LeBron isn't hyped? He has been damn near coined the best player in the NBA after his first televised High School game on ESPN. Get real. Don't take the "Me against the World" approach as a LeBron fan. Everyone loves the kid, praises him, and he gets more hype than anything basketball related on this earth right now. Don't kid yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> ~ Mr. 81


Did you missed hes point, for example look at yourself you are hater, so ther is a lot hate and what makes it wierd is that all great players have shown improvement but for some reasone there are blind people who don't see it... You all had problem with hes defense (last year) now he is about average about it, year befor it you sayd that he had poor shooting % and shaky jumper today he has wonderous efficency and good jumper, he has made serious improvement over the years and he is young... he has some problem at clutch but why do you want to point that out? I mean lets look at Kobe (whom I really like) he made improvement every year to become where he is and this fact alone makes him great and as we know on hes example you need something more than confidence to be so called "clutch" this thing is calle team... Now why I belive Bron can become "clutch"? Becaouse he got more attentione than any young athleat as ever gotten and he has overcomed it he didn't break, this shows that he got balls, I meant think yourself if these *******s would harest you at HS level 24h, I can say there are verry few who can overcome such attention.
I may have to say that I do belive you don't get my point because I belive you were the smart kid who sayd that Kobe could score ?30 points from day one...so basicly hasent improved, I say this is damn lie, and you know it, he is great coz he was good and is great now (talent + hart + wish to improve), this is reasone why I respect them both... but whatever you just have some psycological need to hate someone for no reasone (and as stated impersonal hate is something I don't support, I think it is wrong). Damn you are/act just like typical Kobe hater...


----------



## The MAMBA

futuristxen said:


> Watchmen needs to be like a 10 hour epic like Lord of the Rings. It can never be properly translated to film. Just like how they truncated From Hell and thus lost most of what makes it one of the true opuses of modern comics, they'll do the same to Watchmen. From Hell, how great is that book?


I never read it. Never seen the movie, either. But comic movies in general are getting alot better. They are putting quality and uniquely artistic writers and directors on the projects. I mean: Chris Nolan, Bryan Singer etc. It's getting pretty good.


----------



## futuristxen

The MAMBA said:


> The Watchmen is the best graphic novel, EVER. People who think Sin City was good...are going to be blown out of their mind when The Watchmen is released next year in theatres. Best graphic novel of ALL TIME. SO intellectual and deep. I have yet to get on Promethea though. I got to check that. I heard people are trying to drag him back into comics. We'll see what happens.


You can skip the first two books of Promethea. It's pretty standard mediocre Moore ABC dreck. But Book 3, 4, 5--it's like Moore's crazy version of the Divine Comedy. The artwork is amazing, and the **** that Moore pulls in the book, blows your mind.

I also liked League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Talk about a botched job making the movie. They lost everything that was good about the books. But I think I also liked the books because I'm a lit-nerd.


----------



## The MAMBA

Banjoriddim said:


> Did you missed hes point, for example look at yourself you are hater, so ther is a lot hate and what makes it wierd is that all great players have shown improvement but for some reasone there are blind people who don't see it... You all had problem with hes defense (last year) now he is about average about it, year befor it you sayd that he had poor shooting % and shaky jumper today he has wonderous efficency and good jumper, he has made serious improvement over the years and he is young... he has some problem at clutch but why do you want to point that out? I mean lets look at Kobe (whom I really like) he made improvement every year to become where he is and this fact alone makes him great and as we know on hes example you need something more than confidence to be so called "clutch" this thing is calle team... Now why I belive Bron can become "clutch"? Becaouse he got more attentione than any young athleat as ever gotten and he has overcomed it he didn't break, this shows that he got balls, I meant think yourself if these *******s would harest you at HS level 24h, I can say there are verry few who can overcome such attention.
> I may have to say that I do belive you don't get my point because I belive you were the smart kid who sayd that Kobe could score ?30 points from day one...so basicly hasent improved, I say this is damn lie, and you know it, he is great coz he was good and is great now (talent + hart + wish to improve), this is reasone why I respect them both... but whatever you just have some psycological need to hate someone for no reasone (and as stated impersonal hate is something I don't support, I think it is wrong). Damn you are/act just like typical Kobe hater...


Who said I don't like LeBron though? I can lile LeBron but still be objective in analyzing him. I don't have to be a complete stan while thinking about what he is, and what he has done.


----------



## futuristxen

Who is doing the Watchmen movie? I heard Terry Gilliam was interested a long time back, but I didn't know they were finally doing a movie.


----------



## One on One

I am going to pass on bashing Lebron for passing up all the crucial shots. That was more of a Jordan to Kerr type play. It just had to be made.


----------



## Like A Breath

I have never seen such shameless and blatant off-topicism in my life. :laugh:


----------



## The MAMBA

futuristxen said:


> Who is doing the Watchmen movie? I heard Terry Gilliam was interested a long time back, but I didn't know they were finally doing a movie.


No, originally it was Paul Greengrass...but he has since dropped. WB is still looking to pick someone else up. We'll see what happens.


----------



## 77AJ

Lebron choked down the 4th, nothing new anymore.


----------



## The MAMBA

Like A Breath said:


> I have never seen such shameless and blatant off-topicism in my life. :laugh:


Don;t hate. :curse: :biggrin:


----------



## One on One

Like A Breath said:


> I have never seen such shameless and blatant off-topicism in my life. :laugh:


They are trying to throw Hater Nation off. Interesting tactics.


----------



## GTA Addict

Does LeBron not deserve ANY praise whatsoever or something? The fact that he's a damn phenomenal player seems to get lost in this hype/hate argument. 31/7/7? At 21 years of age? How many all-time greats have been able to average those numbers, much less at his age? No one's seriously touting him as the perfect player. He's a great player, but has his faults, which he's been bashed for and then some.


----------



## One on One

Nobody denies he's a great player. There just happens to be this 4/21 stat so its absurd how some people say he's so great.


----------



## Banjoriddim

The MAMBA said:


> Who said I don't like LeBron though? I can lile LeBron but still be objective in analyzing him. I don't have to be a complete stan while thinking about what he is, and what he has done.


Sorry but I can't take you seriously coz you mainly analyze really few players, if you are casual fan I agree that you don't have to go too deep but you can't be that objective either... I mean mainly you bash him and praise Kobe... about devil thing you are devil if you ignore my points and post generally and just clai you are objective you still can answer to it, don't you?


----------



## 77AJ

One on One said:


> Nobody denies he's a great player. There just happens to be this 4/21 stat so its absurd how some people say he's so great.


Thats why Lebron is a silver standard....lol nice line Reggie. :cheers: 

I agree Lebron right now is not a 4th quarter go to guy to win the game. However the Cavs may have found their 4th quarter crunch time guy in Flip.


----------



## One on One

23AJ said:


> Thats why *Lebron is a silver standard*....lol nice line Reggie. :cheers:
> 
> I agree Lebron right now is not a 4th quarter go to guy to win the game. However the Cavs may have found their 4th quarter crunch time guy in Flip.


I think he's more like a BRONZE standard :rotf:


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

It's official LeBron hate has surpasses Kobe hate.


----------



## 77AJ

One on One said:


> I think he's more like a BRONZE standard :rotf:


I couldn't agree more. 

However that Reggie Miller line was perfect when comparisons about Lebron and Jordan. Reggie Miller Michael Jordan is the Gold Standard to anyone who plays basketball, and Lebron is the silver standard.


----------



## The MAMBA

Banjoriddim said:


> Sorry but I can't take you seriously coz you mainly analyze really few players, if you are casual fan I agree that you don't have to go too deep but you can't be that objective either... I mean mainly you bash him and praise Kobe... about devil thing you are devil if you ignore my points and post generally and just clai you are objective you still can answer to it, don't you?


I don't speak gibberish. I couldn't understand any of that. Why are you mumbling in print?


----------



## GTA Addict

Kobe's 6 for 25 in that same stat, with zero assists in crunch time to LeBron's 3.


----------



## 77AJ

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> It's official LeBron hate has surpasses Kobe hate.


Kobe is just better than Lebron. No hate invloved in that. All love.


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

GTA Addict said:


> Kobe's 6 for 25 in that same stat, with zero assists in crunch time to LeBron's 3.


Don't worry the haters will justify anything...


----------



## 77AJ

GTA Addict said:


> Kobe's 6 for 25 in that same stat, with zero assists in crunch time to LeBron's 3.


Link to that stat ? I find it hard to believe.


----------



## ENIGMATIC 1

Youi would think that he was the one that raped a girl nad cheated on his wife. People just hate him b/c he's great at an early age. More haters will come when he becomes more successful.


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

23AJ said:


> Link to that stat ? I find it hard to believe.


It's true "CLUTCH" is shrouded in reputation not actually fact.


----------



## 77AJ

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> Don't worry the haters will justify anything...


81 and defense goes a lot further than choking away your teams chances to win in the 4th quarter ala Lebron James. As of late James is becoming a great 3 quarter team leader, but after that it's a different story. They may have won tonight, but it wasn't because of James to seal the win for the Cavs down the stretch.


----------



## Like A Breath

Kobe has been subpar in the clutch this year. He takes harder shots than he has to. He is 6/25, they showed the stat during the game broadcast. I think it's on 82games too.


----------



## GTA Addict

http://www.82games.com/random12.htm 



> Kobe Bryant meanwhile has indeed had six such made shots over the past two and a half seasons, but at a pretty low conversion rate, even factoring in his free throws. The other thing with Kobe is that he's not looking to pass the ball! Zero assists in these "final possession" states with 25 shots taken says something.


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

23AJ said:


> Kobe is just better than Lebron. No hate invloved in that. All love.


Kobe needs to actually have a winning season without Shaq. He like LeBron is unproven to me both need to make the playoffs I like LeBrons chances better(even with LH out for the season). LeBron actually has a better record without Shaq than Kobe without Shaq.


----------



## Carbo04

One on One said:


> I think he's more like a BRONZE standard :rotf:



LOL! Awesome


----------



## tone wone

23AJ said:


> Lebron choked down the 4th, nothing new anymore.


 when it comes to Lebron you remind me of this dude....IV and his blatant unreasonable for Tracy McGrady circa 2003-2005


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

23AJ said:


> 81 and defense goes a lot further than choking away your teams chances to win in the 4th quarter ala Lebron James. As of late James is becoming a great 3 quarter team leader, but after that it's a different story. They may have won tonight, but it wasn't because of James to seal the win for the Cavs down the stretch.


Piss 81 in the wind yeah it was nice so what one game. Ohhh Ahhh nice one win the the win column. I'll be more impressed if he takes his team to the playoffs and not CHOKE himself down the stretch AGAIN!


----------



## The MAMBA

But does LeBron not have a vastly superior supporting class? And did LeBron have any major injury last year much the same way Kobe did? Add to the fact Kobe plays in a more difficult conference...and they are both un-proven. But this is Kobe's first year fully healthy since 2003-2003. And look what he is doing.


----------



## Banjoriddim

I hope he will become as cluch as no one next year coz I want to see what is haters next "great" argument... I mean he has no jumper...damn he has...but..but.. ha! he has no defese...damn he has... but...but he isn't clutch.....
this is lame. 
23AJ, I have good answer to you point but since I have stronger belife that my labrador will start talking than you quit your stupid hate, I don't wast my time for debate...

P.S. This is crazy he is so hated, I mean wow...


----------



## 77AJ

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> Kobe needs to actually have a winning season without Shaq. He like LeBron is unproven to me both need to make the playoffs I like LeBrons chances better(even with LH out for the season). LeBron actually has a better record without Shaq than Kobe without Shaq.


I see you are a smart betting man. I would pick the Cavs to make the playoffs too if I was a betting man. However it's not because of Lebron, it's because Lebron has a much better team surrounding him this season. While Kobe is playing with Odom and a bunch of scrubs.


----------



## Like A Breath

How come the guy who barely played at all at the Olympics is the only one that gets the Bronze jokes?


----------



## PauloCatarino

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> Kobe needs to actually have a winning season without Shaq. He like LeBron is unproven to me both need to make the playoffs I like LeBrons chances better(even with LH out for the season). LeBron actually has a better record without Shaq than Kobe without Shaq.


1- Kobe has 3 rings;
2- Kobe was voted higher than Shaq in MVP voting the last 2 years they were together;
3- Lebron has done jack s*** since coming into the league except for putting up stats;
4- I find it funny that someone would say something like "he must make the playoffs" while talking about a future GOAT....


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

The MAMBA said:


> But does LeBron not have a vastly superior supporting class? And did LeBron have any major injury last year much the same way Kobe did? Add to the fact Kobe plays in a more difficult conference...and they are both un-proven. But this is Kobe's first year fully healthy since 2003-2003. And look what he is doing.


All I see are excuses excuses excuses Kobe the great, Kobe the 81, Kobe the MAMBA strikes at 99.9% nah mayne I see him sitting at 29-29 with a terrible schedule next week lets hope the MAMBA's don't lose 5 straight. I could list excuses for LeBron all day I'm not. We'll see who makes it this year.


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

23AJ said:


> I see you are a smart betting man. I would pick the Cavs to make the playoffs too if I was a betting man. However it's not because of Lebron, it's because Lebron has a much better team surrounding him this season. While Kobe is playing with Odom and a bunch of scrubs.


PLEASE without Lebron the cavs would be kissing the Knicks ankles.


----------



## Carbo04

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> Kobe needs to actually have a winning season without Shaq. He like LeBron is unproven to me both need to make the playoffs I like LeBrons chances better(even with LH out for the season). LeBron actually has a better record without Shaq than Kobe without Shaq.



LeBron has a better team.
LeBron is in a weaker conference.

Kobe has 3 rings.
Kobe plays defense.
Kobe can put a team on his back in the clutch.

LeHype can't.


----------



## Banjoriddim

Carbo04 said:


> LOL! Awesome


I guess you are.... nice person just I think my dog has better chance to quit habit to case cats then you have to stop stupid hate... Isn't evolution wounderful?


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

GTA Addict said:


> http://www.82games.com/random12.htm


That is a surprising stat indeed.


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

PauloCatarino said:


> 1- Kobe has 3 rings;
> 2- Kobe was voted higher than Shaq in MVP voting the last 2 years they were together;
> 3- Lebron has done jack s*** since coming into the league except for putting up stats;
> 4- I find it funny that someone would say something like "he must make the playoffs" while talking about a future GOAT....


1- SHAQ
2- SHAQ (he wouldn't have won as many games without him seeing these past 2 seasons!)
3- Could say the say for Kobe this year and last
4- He must make the playoffs...


----------



## 77AJ

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> Piss 81 in the wind yeah it was nice so what one game. Ohhh Ahhh nice one win the the win column. I'll be more impressed if he takes his team to the playoffs and not CHOKE himself down the stretch AGAIN!


The 81 points is the most incredible game I have ever watched in my life. I also saw Jordans 69 and Robinsons 71 point game. I've seen guys put up insane amount of triple doubles from Magic Johnson to Jason Kidd. However I've never seen anything quite like Kobe's 81 points. It's historical, and more importantly it's greatness. Kobe is the greatest player in the game right now.


----------



## Carbo04

Banjoriddim said:


> I guess you are.... nice person just I think my dog has better chance to quit habit to case cats then you have to stop stupid hate... Isn't evolution wounderful?


Yea, it is. Why don't you evolve and learn how to type some proper english.


----------



## PauloCatarino

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> All I see are excuses excuses excuses Kobe the great, Kobe the 81, Kobe the MAMBA strikes at 99.9% nah mayne I see him sitting at 29-29 with a terrible schedule next week lets hope the MAMBA's don't lose 5 straight. I could list excuses for LeBron all day I'm not. We'll see who makes it this year.


Excuses?

Like the:

Hey! LBJ s just 18 years old!
Hey! LBJ is just 19 years old!
Hey! LBJ is just 20 years old!
Hey! LBJ is just 21 years old!

THAT kind of excuses?


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

Carbo04 said:


> LeBron has a better team.
> LeBron is in a weaker conference.
> 
> Kobe has 3 rings.
> Kobe plays defense.
> Kobe can put a team on his back in the clutch.
> 
> LeHype can't.


Kobe has the 9 ringed coach.
Kobe is BETTER so he should win more right? PLEASE
Kobe's defense is the more overrated part of his game.
Kobe hasn't proven to me he can lead his team to the playoffs

LeBron will


----------



## Carbo04

PauloCatarino said:


> Excuses?
> 
> Like the:
> 
> Hey! LBJ s just 18 years old!
> Hey! LBJ is just 19 years old!
> Hey! LBJ is just 20 years old!
> Hey! LBJ is just 21 years old!
> 
> THAT kind of excuses?



Exactly. LeHype and his excuses. He's been around 3 years and is suppose to be the best ever. Well, he needs to prove it. Kobe has proven his worth.


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

PauloCatarino said:


> Excuses?
> 
> Like the:
> 
> Hey! LBJ s just 18 years old!
> Hey! LBJ is just 19 years old!
> Hey! LBJ is just 20 years old!
> Hey! LBJ is just 21 years old!
> 
> THAT kind of excuses?


I've never made that excuse PLEASE!


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

23AJ said:


> The 81 points is the most incredible game I have ever watched in my life. I also saw Jordans 69 and Robinsons 71 point game. I've seen guys put up insane amount of triple doubles from Magic Johnson to Jason Kidd. However I've never seen anything quite like Kobe's 81 points. It's historical, and more importantly it's greatness. Kobe is the greatest player in the game right now.


Kobe is great lead his freaking team with the Hall of Fame coach to the freaking playoffs!


----------



## 77AJ

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> PLEASE without Lebron the cavs would be kissing the Knicks ankles.


Wrong I just watched Flip Murray beat the Bulls, and Lebron choke down the stretch. If it wasn't for those other Cavs tonight the Cavs would be going home with an L not a W.

By the way I could say if the Lakers didnt have Kobe they would be worse off than the Blazers. 

Kobe Bryant > Lebron James

Rest of Cavs Team > Rest of Lakers Team.


----------



## PauloCatarino

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> 1- SHAQ
> 2- SHAQ (he wouldn't have won as many games without him seeing these past 2 seasons!)
> 3- Could say the say for Kobe this year and last
> 4- He must make the playoffs...


1- Yes, Shaq ALSO has 3 rings... you are right;
2- Hmmm... no. It wasn't Shaq. It was Kobe getting those votes;
3- No you can't. Kobe isn't considered GOAT material;
4- Why does the GOAT have to make the playoffs?


----------



## Carbo04

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> Kobe hasn't proven to me he can lead his team to the playoffs
> 
> LeBron will



Oh my!!! What a convincing argument!! PC, Mamba, and myself have been basing our KB8 arguments off of FACTS. Your LeHype argument is all hope and assumptions.


----------



## Banjoriddim

Carbo04 said:


> Yea, it is. Why don't you evolve and learn how to type some proper english.


I am still young and English is my third foreign language so I guess I will but do you stand a chance to stop childish rave if proffesional athlet makes "mistakes"? I gues not... I mean he has so good supporting cast... I mean Flip is starter and all.


----------



## remy23

23AJ said:


> Wrong I just watched Flip Murray beat the Bulls, and *Lebron choke down the stretch*. If it wasn't for those other Cavs tonight the Cavs would be going home with an L not a W.


Funny, I must have watched a different game. The two plays that defined the quarter (the block that probably was the play that saved the game) and the assist that set up the shot by Flip both involved LeBron. If the star is involved in both of the biggest plays of the quarter, he was there. He was active, participating in what happened.


----------



## remy23

Carbo04 said:


> Exactly. LeHype and his excuses. He's been around 3 years and is suppose to be the best ever. Well, he needs to prove it. Kobe has proven his worth.


Supposed to be the best ever? That is a strawman argument if I ever heard it. You're probably taking the most extreme and absurd argument out there and choosing to debate against it. For the record, nobody in the Cleveland forum is saying LeBron is already the GOAT. That's why your comment is so intriguing to me. If we were actually sitting in that forum talking and behaving like that, I could actually see people raising that point. But since we aren't, I wonder where that comment is coming from.


----------



## GTA Addict

So...while we're nitpicking at great players...Wilt was a huge choker and chronic underachiever. Oscar failed to lead his team to the playoffs for three consecutive seasons during his prime, despite having an All-NBA First Teamer with him. Magic and Bird were not stellar defenders. Hah! "Great players" my ***!

As for Kobe, I read a few days ago that he's failed in the clutch at least 10 times this season alone. What's his excuse?


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

23AJ said:


> Wrong I just watched Flip Murray beat the Bulls, and Lebron choke down the stretch. *If it wasn't for those other Cavs tonight the Cavs would be going home with an L not a W.*
> 
> By the way I could say if the Lakers didnt have Kobe they would be worse off than the Blazers.
> 
> Kobe Bryant > Lebron James
> 
> Rest of Cavs Team > Rest of Lakers Team.


Umm without Lebrons 33pts/11asst/8rebs what would the Cavs be going home with? Obviously an L. 

It's convenient to cherry pick a few sequences of plays in the 4th qtr and say that's what won the game, but the reality is different. 

This is not just my opinion mind you, it's a statistical fact:

http://www.82games.com/random11.htm



> Running the correlations for net points per quarter to overall winning percentage shows:
> 
> .85 - 1st Qtr
> .67 - 2nd Qtr
> .75 - 3rd Qtr
> .38 - 4th Qtr
> 
> This again reinforces the 1st/3rd quarters as key, with the fourth quarter less important because of the number of "decided" games having to be played out.
> 
> So the oft spouted concept that NBA games are just back and forth and it all comes down to the last few minutes when the superior teams exert their will is demonstrably false: the good teams get the lead early and hold on.
> 
> If you just add the net points for the 1st quarter and 3rd quarter together, you get:
> 
> 1) Detroit +6.3
> 2) San Antonio +5.5


----------



## futuristxen

Looks better for the Cavs to make the playoffs after this win. If they beat Chicago on Sunday, then they are almost a lock to make the playoffs, unless Boston goes on a New Jersey like tear. The Cavs are actually playing right now for homecourt advantage, not to just make the playoffs. Something that I think they'd do well to remember when they start feeling pressure.


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

PauloCatarino said:


> 1- Yes, Shaq ALSO has 3 rings... you are right;
> 2- Hmmm... no. It wasn't Shaq. It was Kobe getting those votes;
> 3- No you can't. Kobe isn't considered GOAT material;
> 4- Why does the GOAT have to make the playoffs?


Like I said without Shaq Kobe has proven what he can do. He wouldn't have gotten those votes because his team wouldn't have made the playoffs.

3- WTF are you talking about? What does LeBron being GOAT material have to do with Kobe and LeBron just putting up stats the last 2 years?

4- ??? I'm not with stupid. Even Jordan(who you hate) didn't have a better record until his 3rd or 4th season than LeBron had last year with 42-40. That would have made the playoffs all of those years. And didn't win his first championship until his whatever season in the league.


----------



## Banjoriddim

> 3- No you can't. Kobe isn't considered GOAT material;
> 4- Why does the GOAT have to make the playoffs?


Interesting points PauloCatarino. I guess you are right... This could be one factor why Kobe got all the hate... and now Bron and Iverson is fan favorite despite he likes to hunt hes wife with illegal gun... This also explains why haters are picing up random facts to throw them into discussion like "but magic was so young when he won hes first final MVP...not that he had some good guys in hes team...".
To make it short he has small chance.


----------



## futuristxen

Banjoriddim said:


> I am still young and English is my third foreign language s


Ha. I couldn't even imagine trying to write what you write in even my second language. Let alone a third language. Astounding. Keep up the good work.


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

23AJ said:


> Wrong I just watched Flip Murray beat the Bulls, and Lebron choke down the stretch. If it wasn't for those other Cavs tonight the Cavs would be going home with an L not a W.
> 
> By the way I could say if the Lakers didnt have Kobe they would be worse off than the Blazers.
> 
> Kobe Bryant > Lebron James
> 
> Rest of Cavs Team > Rest of Lakers Team.


You're right, but no he did not choke he played his game not the game others want him to play.

Kobe is the best his team should be amongst the best in the league period no excuses.


----------



## -33-

you can take LeBron's last play 2 ways:

Either 

A) he made the right play. he knew he could drive and get into the heart of the D. if he does that, either he gets fouled, or he draws the D in enough to kick it out to one of the shooters. 

B) he passed up another shot that he SHOULD be taking

C) if he takes that shot, he's almost certainly not making it. if lebron rises up at the moment he passed it, he had 2 1/2-3 defenders on him....it would've been a stupid/crazy/forced shot for sure.

If Flip misses that shot, LBJ would almost certainly take more blame than Flip for losing the game. You gotta understand that LBJ is gonna get alot of blame that he doesnt deserve because on the flip side, he gets alot of credit for wins that he doesn't deserve either....that's just how it works with a superstar like LeBron...


----------



## matt!

So everyone would rather LeBron took a really contested shot to win the game, which probably would have missed since he was being guarded pretty well?

Flip Murray hit the shot, so I think LeBron made the right choice. To the guy who saw Flip Murray beat the Bulls, I guess I agree. What's 33/11/8 anyway, the guy sucks! Haha

Don't forget, his team won. In the end that's what matters.

Oh yeah, that MJ guy? Took him a few years to reach the playoffs, I don't see anyone challenging his greatness.


----------



## master8492

remy23 said:


> Funny, I must have watched a different game. The two plays that defined the quarter (the block that probably was the play that saved the game) and the assist that set up the shot by Flip both involved LeBron. If the star is involved in both of the biggest plays of the quarter, he was there. He was active, participating in what happened.


I don't think that's really a block... More like a foul to me. All I see is Lebron slapping Gordon's hand. But anyway you look at it, Gordon just missed the shot. What's my point? None really; just pointing that out.


----------



## tone wone

PauloCatarino said:


> 1- Kobe has 3 rings;
> 2- Kobe was voted higher than Shaq in MVP voting the last 2 years they were together;
> 3- Lebron has done jack s*** since coming into the league except for putting up stats;
> 4- I find it funny that someone would say something like "he must make the playoffs" while talking about a future GOAT....


 so his greatness is defined by his first 3yrs in the league??? well, lets take a look at his first 3yrs...

year 1...21ppg 5rebs 6ast 42%
year 2...27ppg 7rebs 7ast 47%
year 3...30ppg 7rebs 7ast 48%

so you'll agree, HOF??? Oh, the Cavs (you know the _team_ with 13 other players) haven't been to the playoffs. Well, its not like they haven't at least improved...

year before Lebron...17-65. 1st season...35-47. 2nd season...42-40. 3rd season...32-26.

When his _team_ becomes good enough to do damange in the playoffs this board going to be awfully stupid....*lebron wins 1st MVP...haters response: "didn't deserve it! Melo hit more game winners." *lebron makes playoffs....haters response: "cant get out the 1st round." *lebron advances past the 1st round...haters reponse: "cant get out the 2nd round." *lebron advances to the CF's...haters reponse: cant make it to th finals". *lebron advances to the Finals & wins 1st champion....haters response: so, he wont win it again and if he does it wont be next year cause he cant handle pressure of winning back to back titles"


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

It's almost as if it takes more balls to pass it because people will roast him more if he passes and the player he passes to misses than if he just flat out misses.


----------



## Banjoriddim

futuristxen said:


> Ha. I couldn't even imagine trying to write what you write in even my second language. Let alone a third language. Astounding. Keep up the good work.


Good work? Not so sure sometimes when I read my post I sound bit unmature also I can't get into this be polite/keep smiling thing just yet... in short I am still rude but I am not the only one who has these problems.... Thanks for kind word futuristxen.


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

The haters put more expectations to justify thier arguements on LeBron than someone like me.


----------



## The OUTLAW

Shaq_Diesel said:


> you can take LeBron's last play 2 ways:
> 
> Either
> 
> A) he made the right play. he knew he could drive and get into the heart of the D. if he does that, either he gets fouled, or he draws the D in enough to kick it out to one of the shooters.
> 
> B) he passed up another shot that he SHOULD be taking
> 
> C) if he takes that shot, he's almost certainly not making it. if lebron rises up at the moment he passed it, he had 2 1/2-3 defenders on him....it would've been a stupid/crazy/forced shot for sure.
> 
> If Flip misses that shot, LBJ would almost certainly take more blame than Flip for losing the game. You gotta understand that LBJ is gonna get alot of blame that he doesnt deserve because on the flip side, he gets alot of credit for wins that he doesn't deserve either....that's just how it works with a superstar like LeBron...


I agree with this 100%. No matter how people think Lebron should play, he plays his game. While I questioned it at the time the fact is LeBron was being triple teamed on that play and would have had an extraordinarily difficult shot with Deng, Chandler and Nocioni all challenging the shot. The play is to pass out to the wideopen man. Now, I'm not sure that Flip should have been taking a 3, but since it went in I guess everyone deserves a pass.

By the way, LeBron actually had 2 huge blocks down the stretch


----------



## BEEZ

The MAMBA said:


> Let's see... just for starters:
> *~ After HIS FIRST TELEVISED GAME as a SENIOR IN COLLEGE*...I specifically remembering analysts and former players saying he is better than ANYBODY currently in the league.


Mamba I think you are one of my favorite new posters but I had to chuckle at that


----------



## Banjoriddim

tone wone said:


> so his greatness is defined by his first 3yrs in the league??? well, lets take a look at his first 3yrs...
> 
> year 1...21ppg 5rebs 6ast 42%
> year 2...27ppg 7rebs 7ast 47%
> year 3...30ppg 7rebs 7ast 48%
> 
> so you'll agree, HOF??? Oh, the Cavs (you know the _team_ with 13 other players) haven't been to the playoffs. Well, its not like they haven't at least improved...
> 
> year before Lebron...17-65. 1st season...35-47. 2nd season...42-40. 3rd season...32-26.
> 
> When his _team_ becomes good enough to do damange in the playoffs this board going to be awfully stupid....*lebron wins 1st MVP...haters response: "didn't deserve it! Melo hit more game winners." *lebron makes playoffs....haters response: "cant get out the 1st round." *lebron advances past the 1st round...haters reponse: "cant get out the 2nd round." *lebron advances to the CF's...haters reponse: cant make it to th finals". *lebron advances to the Finals & wins 1st champion....haters response: so, he wont win it again and if he does it wont be next year cause he cant handle pressure of winning back to back titles"


Nice that you find time to make such great post. 

P.S. Shaq_Diesel you amaze me... respect!


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

Shaq_Diesel said:


> you can take LeBron's last play 2 ways:
> 
> Either
> 
> A) he made the right play. he knew he could drive and get into the heart of the D. if he does that, either he gets fouled, or he draws the D in enough to kick it out to one of the shooters.
> 
> B) he passed up another shot that he SHOULD be taking
> 
> C) if he takes that shot, he's almost certainly not making it. if lebron rises up at the moment he passed it, he had 2 1/2-3 defenders on him....it would've been a stupid/crazy/forced shot for sure.
> 
> If Flip misses that shot, LBJ would almost certainly take more blame than Flip for losing the game. You gotta understand that LBJ is gonna get alot of blame that he doesnt deserve because on the flip side, he gets alot of credit for wins that he doesn't deserve either....that's just how it works with a superstar like LeBron...



Wow do I see a post from the Diesel I actually agree with? NOOO!


----------



## BEEZ

good thread


----------



## Tragedy

tone wone said:


> When his team becomes good enough to do damange in the playoffs this board going to be awfully stupid....*lebron wins 1st MVP...haters response: "didn't deserve it! Melo hit more game winners." *lebron makes playoffs....haters response: "cant get out the 1st round." *lebron advances past the 1st round...haters reponse: "cant get out the 2nd round." *lebron advances to the CF's...haters reponse: cant make it to th finals". *lebron advances to the Finals & wins 1st champion....haters response: so, he wont win it again and if he does it wont be next year cause he cant handle pressure of winning back to back titles"


The sad part is that is exactly what's gonna happen.


----------



## The MAMBA

BEEZ said:


> Mamba I think you are one of my favorite new posters but I had to chuckle at that


Yeah, I knew I f'ed that one up. Was waiting to see if anyone would notice. I meant High School. hehehehe!!! Props for the pickup.


----------



## Free Arsenal

I still say Lebron should sign with Clippers when his contract is up. :banana: 

Who cares if he's hyped, he'd make the team I root for Championship contenders, and then some. :biggrin:


----------



## BEEZ

Free Arsenal said:


> I still say Lebron should sign with Clippers when his contract is up. :banana:
> 
> Who cares if he's hyped, he'd make the team I root for Championship contenders, and then some. :biggrin:


 lol, I donated 1000 points to you for believing in that pipe dream.


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

Free Arsenal said:


> I still say Lebron should sign with Clippers when his contract is up. :banana:
> 
> Who cares if he's hyped, he'd make the team I root for Championship contenders, and then some. :biggrin:


LMAO! this is like the millionth thread you have posted that in.


----------



## The OUTLAW

Banjoriddim said:


> Good work? Not so sure sometimes when I read my post I sound bit unmature also I can't get into this be polite/keep smiling thing just yet... in short I am still rude but I am not the only one who has these problems.... Thanks for kind word futuristxen.


3rd language. Heck, most of the Americans can barely speak english. So I commend you as well for taking on such a difficult language.


----------



## Free Arsenal

BEEZ said:


> lol, I donated 1000 points to you for believing in that pipe dream.


No it won't be a pipe dream if he doesn't make the playoffs, and he sees the Clippers doing well.

Oh yeah, thanks for the 1k :clap:


----------



## Free Arsenal

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> LMAO! this is like the millionth thread you have posted that in.


Everytime I see a Lebron James, choke thread, I'll post it haha. :banana:


----------



## 4BiddenKnight

The OUTLAW said:


> 3rd language. Heck, most of the Americans can barely speak english. So I commend you as well for taking on such a difficult language.


The english language is easy to learn, it's just those Americans are lazy.


----------



## rosenthall

I think Lebron was fine on the last play, since it was the smartest thing to do in a lot of ways. But the guy does seem to have a problem in crunch time. Like I said, I thought the last play was the right play, but when the Bulls made their run, he did seem to play rather passively and seemed to be off his game, which has happened enough this season to make me believe it's a tangible problem for him currently. Hopefully he'll get out of it because otherwise he's a great player, and all the attention he's getting for it, to me, is just a sign of how good he is, and if it wasn't for his play the first three and a half quarters, the Cavs wouldn't have had a chance to win it at all.


----------



## big_kev_at_oz

hahaha lebron is a choker!!!!

almost blew a 25 point lead

CHOKER!


----------



## BEEZ

big_kev_at_oz said:


> hahaha lebron is a choker!!!!
> 
> almost blew a 25 point lead
> 
> CHOKER!


 LOL @ Lebron almost blowing a 25 popint lead. Hate is blind sometimes.


----------



## Banjoriddim

big_kev_at_oz said:


> hahaha lebron is a choker!!!!
> 
> almost blew a 25 point lead
> 
> CHOKER!


Hi! Attention *****... You should be pleased got your attention, I replyed. Hope to find your next short/lame/unreasoned post soon and make you even happier.

Please do not insult other posters.

Thanks. - *Premier*


----------



## pac4eva5

futuristxen said:


> What hype? We just sat through 2 hours of constant LeBash. The hype is in your mind. Charles always disses Lebron. Kenny was dissing Lebron. Artest was dissing Lebron. Reggie Miller was dissing Lebron. Doug Collins was dissing Lebron. I'm sure Michael Jordan was dissing Lebron. What hype? Ric Bucher and Marc Stein always are dissing Lebron. Marc Stein wanted Darko and Melo to be drafted ahead of Lebron. Who is hyping Lebron?


^ biggest hypocrite ever

:nonono:


----------



## pac4eva5

big_kev_at_oz said:


> hahaha lebron is a choker!!!!
> 
> almost blew a 25 point lead
> 
> CHOKER!


YAY!!!


----------



## hendrix2430

Shaq_Diesel said:


> you can take LeBron's last play 2 ways:
> 
> Either
> 
> A) he made the right play. he knew he could drive and get into the heart of the D. if he does that, either he gets fouled, or he draws the D in enough to kick it out to one of the shooters.
> 
> B) he passed up another shot that he SHOULD be taking
> 
> C) if he takes that shot, he's almost certainly not making it. if lebron rises up at the moment he passed it, he had 2 1/2-3 defenders on him....it would've been a stupid/crazy/forced shot for sure.
> 
> If Flip misses that shot, LBJ would almost certainly take more blame than Flip for losing the game. You gotta understand that LBJ is gonna get alot of blame that he doesnt deserve because on the flip side, he gets alot of credit for wins that he doesn't deserve either....that's just how it works with a superstar like LeBron...



Very good post, I agree with this 100%.

I think the hate is starting to get to Lebron a little. You can tell he's affected by it. It's understandable though...when you know there are many people watching closely for every tiny mistake you make, it's tough mentally. He tries not to show his frustration, but it's clearly taking a toll on his performance.

Based on last night, the pass was brilliant IMO. That was absolutely the right decision. Flip was wide open, and Bron was being doubled teamed. No brainer. 

What were the odds of Lebron making that shot, with Nocioni and Deng in his grill (not incluing Chandler and Sweetney crowding the lane)? Slim and none. 
And Like SD said, if Lebron had taken and missed it, OR if Flip had missed the trey...Lebron would get the blame for taking an impossible shot, OR would get the blame for not taking that last shot.

That pass was the perfect decision. And a very smart one.


----------



## PauloCatarino

tone wone said:


> so his greatness is defined by his first 3yrs in the league??? well, lets take a look at his first 3yrs...
> 
> year 1...21ppg 5rebs 6ast 42%
> year 2...27ppg 7rebs 7ast 47%
> year 3...30ppg 7rebs 7ast 48%
> 
> so you'll agree, HOF??? Oh, the Cavs (you know the _team_ with 13 other players) haven't been to the playoffs. Well, its not like they haven't at least improved...
> 
> year before Lebron...17-65. 1st season...35-47. 2nd season...42-40. 3rd season...32-26.


I don't think LBJ's greatness is defined by his first 3 years in the league. But many people around here do. You know, the people who say things like "oh, my, if he's averaging X-P-T-O at age 20 imagine what he will be like in 5 years. Hes GOAT material!". I can't stand that. I will always have a chip on my shoulder regarding Lebron James. He is a corporate superstar. But i can't deny he is a geat player. However, stats don't show the whole picture. Many players have arrived in the league fring at all cilinders, and i'm not gonna buy the "30ppg at age 21, it will be 35ppg at age 25" reasoning.

If i were a stats guy i would pimp that loser T-Mac. Or the other loser, in Minnesotta.

Winning is all that matters reagrding great players.

And till now LBJ has done nothing in that department to make me believe he is HOF or GOAT material. And by nothing i mean absolutely-nothing-except-a-ASGMVP-that-was-a-complete-mockery.



> When his _team_ becomes good enough to do damange in the playoffs this board going to be awfully stupid....*lebron wins 1st MVP...haters response: "didn't deserve it! Melo hit more game winners." *lebron makes playoffs....haters response: "cant get out the 1st round." *lebron advances past the 1st round...haters reponse: "cant get out the 2nd round." *lebron advances to the CF's...haters reponse: cant make it to th finals". *lebron advances to the Finals & wins 1st champion....haters response: so, he wont win it again and if he does it wont be next year cause he cant handle pressure of winning back to back titles"


This board is ALREADY "awfully stupid" regarding Lebron James and Kobe Bryant.
I agree with you here. Haters will always hate. And will always find some reason to fuel that hate, wether it's reasonable or not. Heck, a quick glance over one of the million "Kobe sucks" threads in the Main Forum will show that.

As far as i'm concerned, Lebron James is simply one of the best players (Top-5) in the League currently. Nothing more, nothing less. GOAT my foot.

BTW, regarding Lebron James: what is the NBA policy about physical-enhancing drugs, like steroids and such?


----------



## hendrix2430

PauloCatarino said:


> As far as i'm concerned, Lebron James is simply one of the best players (Top-5) in the League currently. Nothing more, nothing less. GOAT my foot.
> 
> BTW, regarding Lebron James: what is the NBA policy about physical-enhancing drugs, like steroids and such?


Of course he's not GOAT, HOF material, he is in his third season...any reasonable BB fan will agree with that. Most of us think he "has the tools to be one day in the HOF" (or possibly the GOAT, who knows right now?), which not many players have. So, it's exciting to see this thing unfold, no?

Lol @ James using steroids. He's a freak, no doubt... :banana:


----------



## Demiloy

4BiddenKnight said:


> The english language is easy to learn, it's just those Americans are lazy.


 That is so right.


----------



## el_Diablo

> I don't think LBJ's greatness is defined by his first 3 years in the league. But many people around here do. You know, the people who say things like "oh, my, if he's averaging X-P-T-O at age 20 imagine what he will be like in 5 years. Hes GOAT material!". I can't stand that. I will always have a chip on my shoulder regarding Lebron James. He is a corporate superstar. But i can't deny he is a geat player. However, stats don't show the whole picture. Many players have arrived in the league fring at all cilinders, and i'm not gonna buy the "30ppg at age 21, it will be 35ppg at age 25" reasoning.


ahh. somehow this reminds me of the hype certain laker got a few years back. spooky.


----------



## LBJthefuturegoat

PauloCatarino said:


> Hes GOAT material!".


I've never said he's the GOAT I've said plenty of times that he hasn't proven anything to me yet. GOAT material sure if he wins like I said. I'm glad you got mad that I could even place LeBron near the GOAT conversation when he just started his second season(when I joined). Hell I thought that it could be possible after watching his first High School game(possibly). I knew it was a long shot though and I've never called him anything close to being the GOAT. I admit it was a little niave, but if someone would give me an unbiased post on why LeBron would never under any circumstances be considered the GOAT I'd change my name.


----------



## Pioneer10

If Lebron becomes the silver standard to MJ then every Cav's fan will be happy LOL. If MJ is the Goat and Lebron is finished his career just a notch below him then what fan wouldn't be happy. I mean whose considered the silver standard to MJ now: Magic, Bird, and the like: some pretty damn good company. Some of the logic in this thread is impeccable


----------



## OKane730

Lebron will go to another team once his contract is up unless they make the playoffs or some sort of big free agency signing to make him want to stay.


----------



## Larry Hughes for Retirement

Shaq_Diesel said:


> you can take LeBron's last play 2 ways:
> 
> Either
> 
> A) he made the right play. he knew he could drive and get into the heart of the D. if he does that, either he gets fouled, or he draws the D in enough to kick it out to one of the shooters.
> 
> B) he passed up another shot that he SHOULD be taking
> 
> C) if he takes that shot, he's almost certainly not making it. if lebron rises up at the moment he passed it, he had 2 1/2-3 defenders on him....it would've been a stupid/crazy/forced shot for sure.


You said you could look at it 2 ways, but you gave 3 ways (A-B-C).

No matter how you look at it Lebron did the right thing, the wrong thing would have been to take that last second shot fading away into 3 defenders. As some would say, "he wasnt looking to score" in my experience of playing basketball. When you put your head down and lower your shoulder and go hard to the basket, from the 3-pt line to the paint, I would say thats looking to score. Its just that the Bulls were not going to let him in away way possible.


----------



## PauloCatarino

LBJthefuturegoat said:


> I've never said he's the GOAT I've said plenty of times that he hasn't proven anything to me yet. GOAT material sure if he wins like I said. I'm glad you got mad that I could even place LeBron near the GOAT conversation when he just started his second season(when I joined).


It's just not your screenmane that i hate, man.
It's that freaking avatar, too!!!!





> Hell I thought that it could be possible after watching his first High School game(possibly). I knew it was a long shot though and I've never called him anything close to being the GOAT. I admit it was a little niave, *but if someone would give me an unbiased post on why LeBron would never under any circumstances be considered the GOAT I'd change my name*.


That is impossible, because in the realm of possibiities, it can happen. With Lebron or with other player that comes around.

But, IMHO, there's like 0.01% of chances that will hapen. The standard is just too high.
Winning wise, 5 or 6 champinships and Finals MVP can put Lebron in the discussion, as long as, say, 13 straight All-Nba selections and 3/4 regular seasons MVP. I say there's a reasonable chance Lebron can accomplixh that in his career.

But what i question is the player's GAME. 

I've said this once in a Bird vs Duncan thread comparison: greter does not equal BETTER player. If Duncan should win 3/4 championships more (doubtfull) and 2/3 MVPS more (also doubtfull), he may well be regardedas a greater player than Larry. But he will never be a better player, considering Bird had more and better basketball skills (IMHO).

The same will happen to Lebron. I love his game, but it's nothing new, really. At least, till now. He's a less dominant Oscar Robertson (considering all-around game). Jordan-lite. He will never shoot like Bird. Or pass like Magic. Or dominate like Wilt. Even if he wins a zillion awards, will he be considered BETTER than those players? I don't think so. GREATER? Could be.

As a matter of fact, the more i think about it, the more i'm assured that the next GOAT must be a post player. A new Wilt. Someone who puts up crazy stats (LBJ ain't doing that and he probably never will) AND wins like crazy. I'm talking about 35-15-5 here, for at least a decade. All-Defense since day one. And AT LEAST 5 MVPS and chips.

But, off course, one can't absolutely rule out LBJ as a GOAT candidate. He has, what, 15 years ahead?


----------



## John

James is not that good.


----------



## Bron_Melo_ROY

John said:


> James is not that good.


I figured there was something wrong with you when you your sig has a quote saying that Penny Hardaway can still play in the NBA.


----------



## pac4eva5

whats funny is im so convinced melo would have just busted that 3 like hes done time and time again...and the haters say he DOESN'T have a killer instinct...


----------



## JT

JR Smith > LeFron James


----------



## John

Bron_Melo_ROY said:


> I figured there was something wrong with you when you your sig has a quote saying that Penny Hardaway can still play in the NBA.


LMAO kid, when Penny was in his prime, you were like 6 years old.


----------



## BBALLSCIENCES

I agree with this John fella, but not to the same extent. See Lebron is immensely talented on the offensive end. His flaws are glarign though, and what's even more disconcerting is that he hasn't improved them at all. He's still a god-awful defender not to mention he's like the tinman; no heart. He's so damn soft it's sickening. They might make the playoffs this season, but it'll only be because they've got someone else to bail them out in clutch situations(stand up Flip Murray).


----------



## GTA Addict

Wow, the way some of you are talking it seems you value a role player's "clutchness" more than a dominant player's overall game. Flip Murray will be more a reason than LeBron for the Cavs making the playoffs? ****ing nonsense.

It's a statistical FACT that 4th quarter productivity has the LEAST impact on winning compared to productivity in the first three quarters. Not every game comes down to the last minute. The first 47+ minutes of a game are played for a reason.


----------



## BBALLSCIENCES

GTA Addict said:


> Wow, the way some of you are talking it seems you value a role player's "clutchness" more than a dominant player's overall game. Flip Murray will be more a reason than LeBron for the Cavs making the playoffs? ****ing nonsense.
> 
> It's a statistical FACT that 4th quarter productivity has the LEAST impact on winning compared to productivity in the first three quarters. Not every game comes down to the last minute. The first 47+ minutes of a game are played for a reason.


Your avoidance of the fact that Lebron is a choker makes my argument stronger.


----------



## Bron_Melo_ROY

John said:


> LMAO kid, when Penny was in his prime, you were like 6 years old.


We're not talkin bout his prime, we're talkin bout now...


----------



## GTA Addict

BBALLSCIENCES said:


> Your avoidance of the fact that Lebron is a choker makes my argument stronger.


Your argument is that because you think LeBron is a "choker" and Flip Murray is "clutch", Murray will be more responsible for the Cavs making the playoffs, which is an absurd notion. 

You can set any specific parameters to make any player seem "clutch" or a "choker". Example: LeBron leads the league in FG% in the last 3 minutes of close games. Kobe's FG% (.240) in the last 24 seconds of close games is the worst among players who have hit at least 5 gamewinners in the past 3 years.


----------



## Carbo04

Face facts: LeBron is a overrated, stat-padding, choker. He doesn't play defense and he falls apart in the clutch. I mean, friggen UNC freshmen in Cameron which is alot more pressure than any NBA venue can hit game winning free throws yet Mr. Basketball Jesus can't? Bah!


----------



## GTA Addict

Face facts: Kobe is an overrated, ballhogging, choker (he's failed in the clutch 11 times this season alone!). He doesn't rebound well or pass the ball, nor has he proven he can lead his team to the playoffs as a leader. I mean, friggen rookies like Carmelo Anthony can do it, yet Mr. I-scored-81-points-so-I'm-the-best can't? Bah!

Do you hate because it's fun and easy or is your view of players really that narrow-minded and simplistic?


----------



## Carbo04

GTA Addict said:


> Face facts: Kobe is an overrated, ballhogging, choker (he's failed in the clutch 11 times this season alone!). He doesn't rebound well or pass the ball, nor has he proven he can lead his team to the playoffs as a leader. I mean, friggen rookies like Carmelo Anthony can do it, yet Mr. I-scored-81-points-so-I'm-the-best can't? Bah!


Where did I mention Kobe in my post? But if you want to bring him up.

Kobe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LeBron.. And it's not even close.



> Do you hate because it's fun and easy or is your view of players really that narrow-minded and simplistic?


I'll leave it up for you to decide.


----------



## GTA Addict

Carbo04 said:


> Where did I mention Kobe in my post? But if you want to bring him up.


I was demonstrating how easy and thoughtless it is to hate on a player with the exact same narrow-mindedness in your post.



> I'll leave it up for you to decide.


It's quite obvious that you have a biased view of LeBron. I was giving you a chance to try to say otherwise.

Haters unite! Leborn sux and thatz fact!


----------



## Carbo04

GTA Addict said:


> I was demonstrating how easy and thoughtless it is to hate on a player with the exact same narrow-mindedness in your post.
> 
> It's quite obvious that you have a biased view of LeBron. I was giving you a chance to try to say otherwise.
> 
> Haters unite! Leborn sux and thatz fact!



No, it's alot easier to find flaw in LeBron.

Kobe = 3 Championships
LeBron = 0 Championships

Kobe = Plays defense
LeBron = No defense

Kobe = Clutch
LeBron = Not so much

Kobe = Dunk contest champion.
LeBron = Scared to compete.

Kobe = 35 PPG
LeBron = 31 PPG

Kobe = Mr. 81
LeBron = Mr. Collapse.

Kobe > LeBron


----------



## 77AJ

Carbo04 said:


> No, it's alot easier to find flaw in LeBron.
> 
> Kobe = 3 Championships
> LeBron = 0 Championships
> 
> Kobe = Plays defense
> LeBron = No defense
> 
> Kobe = Clutch
> LeBron = Not so much
> 
> Kobe = Dunk contest champion.
> LeBron = Scared to compete.
> 
> Kobe = 35 PPG
> LeBron = 31 PPG
> 
> Kobe = Mr. 81
> LeBron = Mr. Collapse.
> 
> Kobe > LeBron


Agreed :cheers:


----------



## futuristxen

Carbo04 said:


> LeBron = No defense


Why do people keep saying this? He's working his *** off on defense nowadays. And gets no respect about it. People talk about the job artest did on Lebron, Lebron was giving it right back to Arest on the other end. Those two were beating the **** out of each other on both ends of the floor, it was the most physical game I've watched of two wing players going at it in quite some time. Lebron was blocking and stripping and shoving Artest on one end, Artest was doing the same to Lebron on the other.

And ask Luol Deng about Lebron's lack of defense. He got swatted several times by Lebron in the Bulls-Cavs game. For that matter ask Ben Gordon about seemingly wide open layups on the break. Lebron is getting on a Tayshaun Prince like level at tracking down small guards who like to layup fastbreak finishes.

Lebron is becoming an excellent off the ball shot blocker in addition to the steals. And his on the ball defense is better every game. The flaws we all talked about in January with screens are no longer an aspect of his defense.

I guess some people still believe Amare doesn't have a jumpshot too though. Or that Dallas doesn't play defense.


----------



## 77AJ

futuristxen said:


> Why do people keep saying this? He's working his *** off on defense nowadays. And gets no respect about it. People talk about the job artest did on Lebron, Lebron was giving it right back to Arest on the other end. Those two were beating the **** out of each other on both ends of the floor, it was the most physical game I've watched of two wing players going at it in quite some time. Lebron was blocking and stripping and shoving Artest on one end, Artest was doing the same to Lebron on the other.
> 
> And ask Luol Deng about Lebron's lack of defense. He got swatted several times by Lebron in the Bulls-Cavs game. For that matter ask Ben Gordon about seemingly wide open layups on the break. Lebron is getting on a Tayshaun Prince like level at tracking down small guards who like to layup fastbreak finishes.
> 
> Lebron is becoming an excellent off the ball shot blocker in addition to the steals. And his on the ball defense is better every game. The flaws we all talked about in January with screens are no longer an aspect of his defense.
> 
> I guess some people still believe Amare doesn't have a jumpshot too though. Or that Dallas doesn't play defense.


I disagree, Lebron gets a couple a blocks and lucky steals in a few games during an 82 game season doesn't make him a good defender. Lebron is an average defender at best. Everyone will know when Lebrons defense catches up with his offense at this piont though his defense is average to nothing.


----------



## futuristxen

23AJ said:


> I disagree, Lebron gets a couple a blocks and lucky steals in a few games during an 82 game season doesn't make him a good defender. Lebron is an average defender at best. Everyone will know when Lebrons defense catches up with his offense at this piont though his defense is average to nothing.


You disagree with what? I was disagreeing with the notion that he plays no defense. No defense means zero. Nada. Nothing. Not even average. Not even bad. Zero. Worst defense in the league. Are you saying that? Because that makes no sense to say. It's like Lebron has to be Hakeem just for you to say he plays average defense.


----------



## 77AJ

futuristxen said:


> You disagree with what? I was disagreeing with the notion that he plays no defense. No defense means zero. Nada. Nothing. Not even average. Not even bad. Zero. Worst defense in the league. Are you saying that? Because that makes no sense to say. It's like Lebron has to be Hakeem just for you to say he plays average defense.


No, my point is that if Lebron makes a block on one end and get's a fast break dunk on the other Cavs fans say he's a great defender. However I see average NBA players do the same thing all the time. For example, just the other night Ruben Patterson blocked a guys dunk attempt off the window and ran down the other end, and dunked the ball. (A very nice dunk I might add) However you won't hear anyone saying wow Ruben is a great defender because of it. Everything Lebron does gets more credit than he deserves. Until Lebron plays defense on a consistent basis. I won't consider him a good defender.


----------



## Carbo04

futuristxen said:


> You disagree with what? I was disagreeing with the notion that he plays no defense. No defense means zero. Nada. Nothing. Not even average. Not even bad. Zero. Worst defense in the league. Are you saying that? Because that makes no sense to say. It's like Lebron has to be Hakeem just for you to say he plays average defense.



Ok. He plays BAD defense then. Wow, he gets a block and a steal here and there. Even the worst of players can do that once in a while. Fact is, LeBron is a terrible defender.


----------



## remy23

Carbo04 said:


> Ok. He plays BAD defense then. Wow, he gets a block and a steal here and there. Even the worst of players can do that once in a while. Fact is, LeBron is a terrible defender.


Then as a "terrible defender," why doesn't he have terrible PER? See the issue here?


----------



## Carbo04

remy23 said:


> Then as a "terrible defender," why doesn't he have terrible PER? See the issue here?



Funny how the PER argument justifies LeBron. But when used to defend players like Shawn Marion that is just a useless stat.


----------



## 77AJ

Carbo04 said:


> Funny how the PER argument justifies LeBron. But when used to defend players like Shawn Marion that is just a useless stat.


Agreed, stats only tell half the story.


----------



## remy23

Carbo04 said:


> Funny how the PER argument justifies LeBron. But when used to defend players like Shawn Marion that is just a useless stat.


Let's throw out PER. Find me a stretch of games that shows a regular pattern of people going above their averages against LeBron (like 5 games or something). If it's such an easy match up, finding this should be easy. Because guys will essentially be blowing LeBron out everytime they see him since he's so "terrible" on defense.


----------



## 77AJ

remy23 said:


> Let's throw out PER. Find me a stretch of games that shows a regular pattern of people going above their averages against LeBron (like 5 games or something). If it's such an easy match up, finding this should be easy. Because guys will essentially be blowing LeBron out everytime they see him since he's so "terrible" on defense.


Well the games I watched.

The problem isn't that players are not blowing James out of the building even though some do. The problem is the SF position isn't a explosive scoring position like the SG. So players just getting their average on James show's he's not a great defender. Half the guys James defends are not going to drop 20 or 30 points because they don't even average that. That being said I saw a few games this season where James was embarassed on defense.

I saw Paul Pierce Drop 50 on Lebron, I saw McGrady Drop 30 Something On Lebron. I'm sure there are a lot more games where James defense shows up poorly.


----------



## Spriggan

LeBron has arguably the best game in the league on the offensive side of the ball, when you take into account scoring and playmaking. Sure, he may not be a very good defender right now, but he's younger than a lot of the people posting in this thread.

Some of you are incredibly picky. Do you expect all of your 21 year-old, no-college swingmen to be gods on both ends of the court in only their third year? Keep your expectations level-headed. The funny thing is, if you ever said that you expected LeBron to end up nearly this good, it was a lie. He's only into his third season, and he's already much better than most of us thought he'd _ever_ get.


----------



## remy23

23AJ said:


> Well the games I watched.
> 
> The problem isn't that players are not blowing James out of the building even though some do. The problem is the SF position isn't a explosive scoring position like the SG. So players just getting their average on James show's he's not a great defender. Half the guys James defends are not going to drop 20 or 30 points because they don't even average that. That being said I saw a few games this season where James was embarassed on defense.
> 
> I saw Paul Pierce Drop 50 on Lebron, I saw McGrady Drop 30 Something On Lebron. I'm sure there are a lot more games where James defense shows up poorly.


If LeBron had literally no defense, Coach Brown couldn't justify in playing LeBron the insane amount of minutes that he does. What good is it that LeBron scores 30 a night, if LeBron in turn gave up 30 a night? If LeBron was merely breaking even with opposing players, he wouldn't be that valuable. You wouldn't play a guy that many minutes because he isn't winning the production battle at his position. In that case, you'd treat LeBron like a shooter. If he was hot from the field, you keep him in the game and if he's cold, you take him out because he isn't helping the team.


----------



## Like A Breath

I see the craziest things these days. A lot of people on the New Jersey board say that he's a stat whore and that they wouldn't even want him on their team! On Clutchfans, the Rockets fans say that they hope he doesn't go to Houston because Yao would never get the ball.

His reputation is at such a low that he's considered a Marbury-like cancer now. It's truly mind-boggling.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

23AJ said:


> I saw Paul Pierce Drop 50 on Lebron, I saw McGrady Drop 30 Something On Lebron. I'm sure there are a lot more games where James defense shows up poorly.


Weak examples. 

Paul Pierce dropped that 50 in a double OT game, and for that matter I watched him personally drop 39pts on your favorite player, Kobe Bryant a few games ago. Talented scorers like Pierce are gonna get theirs on some nights no matter how good you play on D.

McGrady scoring 34 is not that big of a deal either IMO, who's gonna stop McGrady when he gets hot from the perimeter? In that same game Lebron dropped 32 on 13-19 shooting on Tmac, does that mean Tmac suddenly plays "no defense" also? 

You act like Lebron is the only guy who gets scored on by other all-star's. No one is claiming he's a lockdown defender, just that he's improving.


----------



## GoDWade

this only shows how amazing Wade has been under the shadow of James and Anthony

it's harder to say James >>>> Wade now


----------



## Carbo04

GoDWade said:


> it's harder to say James >>>> Wade now



It's hard to say because it's a lie. 

Wade > James.


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

GoDWade said:


> this only shows how amazing Wade has been under the shadow of James and Anthony
> 
> it's harder to say James >>>> Wade now


Wade is not under anybody's shadow anymore. He's been on video game covers, has his own shoe, and there are quite a few people who already think he's better than James.


----------



## GoDWade

Benedict_Boozer said:


> Wade is not under anybody's shadow anymore. He's been on video game covers, has his own shoe, and there are quite a few people who already think he's better than James.


there are still people who believe Lebron is way better than Wade, despite all that you had mentioned


----------



## Like A Breath

There are also people that think Wade is way better than LeBron, it doesn't mean that LeBron is under Wade's shadow. Wade was overshadowed his rookie year, Carmelo was overshadowed his sophomore year, and now all 3 get a ton of exposure. There shouldn't be an issue with exposure anymore.


----------



## Pioneer10

I guess Bruce Bowen is a bad defender as Lebron dropped 44 on him.
I guess Igoudala is a bad defender as Lebron is averaging 30+ on him this year.
I guess Trenton Hassell is a bad defender as Lebron dropped 35 on him.


----------



## futuristxen

23AJ said:


> No, my point is that if Lebron makes a block on one end and get's a fast break dunk on the other Cavs fans say he's a great defender. However I see average NBA players do the same thing all the time. For example, just the other night Ruben Patterson blocked a guys dunk attempt off the window and ran down the other end, and dunked the ball. (A very nice dunk I might add) However you won't hear anyone saying wow Ruben is a great defender because of it. Everything Lebron does gets more credit than he deserves. Until Lebron plays defense on a consistent basis. I won't consider him a good defender.


Great defender? Who is saying that? I'm talking about you and others saying he plays NO defense. Don't try and twist it into some weird world where Lebron is getting defensive accolades left and right. Who is saying Lebron is a great defender right now? I personally think he will develop into a really good defender, and with his skills could one day win a defensive player of the year award. But that's my opinion and I've always been out front on bold predictions regarding Lebron(and he's usually been out in front of my bold predictions, which is amazing).

I don't care if you think he's a good defender or not. I just want you to admit it's wrong to say he plays "No defense".


----------



## futuristxen

How'd Dwayne Wade get into this thread? DWade, Lebron, Melo--all really good players. Fantastic draft. Kobe's a good player. Mcgrady is a good player. Iverson's a good player.

A lot of people think Wade is better than James. So what? A lot of people thought Drexler was better than Jordan. A lot of people think Wade is better than Kobe. Apparently some people think Luke Ridnour is better than Allen Iverson. People have opinions. Big suprise.


----------



## GoDWade

I was looking for analysis but instead I just get bunch of "so what"

oh well


----------



## futuristxen

GoDWade said:


> I was looking for analysis but instead I just get bunch of "so what"
> 
> oh well


What do you want analyzed? In my opinion Lebron has a more well-rounded game than Wade, but that doesn't diminish Wade at all. He's a spectacular player and I enjoy watching him. Lebron is a much better perimeter shooter than Wade. They are about even as far as finishing in the paint. Wade is a better dunker, but Lebron is better at the flips and the finger rolls. Wade is a very good passer, but Lebron makes passes that as a fan looking for open passes, that sometimes I don't even see. Sometimes the guy he's making the pass to doesn't even know he's open. His passing skills are probably his greatest skill. Lebron is a more dominant rebounder. When he goes up for a rebound, he usually comes down with it. They are both excellent at getting blocked shots off the ball, even though Lebron is taller than Wade, they are equal in that respect. Wade is like a young jordan off the ball getting blocks. As far as staying in front of their man and taking on the tough defensive assignments, they are equal, with Lebron starting to pull ahead in the last few months, as he begins to use his size more and more on the defensive end. The biggest knock on Wade IMO is that his style of play is not congruent with his threshold for pain. He gets injured and sits out games an awful lot more than Lebron. You wonder how he is going to hold up. And when he finally gets a jumper, is he going to still attack the basket, given that amount of punishment he takes?


----------



## maswe12

futuristxen said:


> What do you want analyzed? In my opinion Lebron has a more well-rounded game than Wade, but that doesn't diminish Wade at all. He's a spectacular player and I enjoy watching him. Lebron is a much better perimeter shooter than Wade. They are about even as far as finishing in the paint. Wade is a better dunker, but Lebron is better at the flips and the finger rolls. Wade is a very good passer, but Lebron makes passes that as a fan looking for open passes, that sometimes I don't even see. Sometimes the guy he's making the pass to doesn't even know he's open. His passing skills are probably his greatest skill. Lebron is a more dominant rebounder. When he goes up for a rebound, he usually comes down with it. They are both excellent at getting blocked shots off the ball, even though Lebron is taller than Wade, they are equal in that respect. Wade is like a young jordan off the ball getting blocks. As far as staying in front of their man and taking on the tough defensive assignments, they are equal, with Lebron starting to pull ahead in the last few months, as he begins to use his size more and more on the defensive end. The biggest knock on Wade IMO is that his style of play is not congruent with his threshold for pain. He gets injured and sits out games an awful lot more than Lebron. You wonder how he is going to hold up. And when he finally gets a jumper, is he going to still attack the basket, given that amount of punishment he takes?


Lebron is bigger. Wade doesnt buckle under pressure. That about sums up the differences between the two.


----------



## The MAMBA

futuristxen said:


> I don't care if you think he's a good defender or not. I just want you to admit it's wrong to say he plays "No defense".


I agree. I think it would just be more appropriate to say he doesn't put as much effort into the defensive end as he does on the offensive end. Hopefully things can start change around for him, and as long as he keeps his hunger to turn his negatives into positives...then there shouldn't be anything holding him back. Hopefully he will get to that upper echelon defensively one day. And when he does, it will be really frightening.


----------



## The MAMBA

futuristxen said:


> I don't care if you think he's a good defender or not. I just want you to admit it's wrong to say he plays "No defense".


I agree, it's not fair to say he plays "no defense". I think it would just be more appropriate to say he doesn't put as much effort into the defensive end as he does on the offensive end. Hopefully things can start change around for him, and as long as he keeps his hunger to turn his negatives into positives...then there shouldn't be anything holding him back. Hopefully he will get to that upper echelon defensively one day. And when he does, it will be really frightening.


----------



## futuristxen

The MAMBA said:


> I agree, it's not fair to say he plays "no defense". I think it would just be more appropriate to say he doesn't put as much effort into the defensive end as he does on the offensive end. Hopefully things can start change around for him, and as long as he keeps his hunger to turn his negatives into positives...then there shouldn't be anything holding him back. Hopefully he will get to that upper echelon defensively one day. And when he does, it will be really frightening.


That's a more sensible view.


----------



## Carbo04

Honestly, a nice 4th from LeBron tonight. But lets see it in a crucial, and close game.


----------



## STUCKEY!

it was close.... *UNTIL LEBRON MURDED THE BULLS*


----------



## Carbo04

Uhh. Who keeps moving these threads?


----------



## Benedict_Boozer

Carbo04 said:


> Uhh. Who keeps moving these threads?


Exactly my question..


----------



## The OUTLAW

SHEED! said:


> it was close.... *UNTIL LEBRON MURDED THE BULLS*


This is the most truthful statement made in this entire thread. LeBron murdered the Bulls and because of that the game didn't come down to a last minute shot. 

I think it's pretty much official now. LeBron has more full time haters than anyone in the league.


----------

