# Denver has a bright future!



## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

If know my talent as well as I think I do, the Denver Nuggets are going to have a very bright future down the road. Sure you are the main focus of jokes on shows like "The Tonight Show" but there is a very, very sound talent base on that team. 

*You have a absolute STUD in Nene Hilario, that kid has a ton of talent and will be a elite post player in the NBA, a lock for the All Star team in my view.

*You have Nikoloz Tskitishvili, not a really productive player but has a ton of talent, a wonderful athlete at 7-0 that plays as fast as a guard. Nice basketball skill and has a good handle and jump shot.

*Have Rodney White, what a steal! That kid can play, he is smart, confident and aggressive. He is a tough kid that knows how to score the basketball. Has a really great upside to him and they got him for almost nothing.

*Juwan Howard, don't laugh, he is a very solid veteran and is a nice post player. He is a good leader and competitor and provides a solid player for Nene to learn from.

*Donnell Harvey, I love the kid, wonderful rebounder and is super athletic with a great upside to him, and he provides a spark off the bench,

*Chris Andersen, what a talented athlete this kid is, has really nice size, great jumping ability. If he can work on his inside moves he could be a great player in the future, wonderful pick!

*Ryan Bowen, the hustle guy, work really hard and is a must for any great team, sure they are not great but players like that are hard to find.

*Shammond Williams, believe it or not but he is a really good player, nice jump shot and provides the Nuggets with a young PG to play out this season and see what he has.

* Vincent Yarbrough, not a great player but is a very solid second round pick, has nice numbers and is a athletic SG/SF.

*Marcus Camby, if he ever gets healthy he could do some damage in the West, can block shots obviously and provides athletic ability to a already athletic front court.


And just think in the draft they could get LeBron James, or even TJ Ford etc. Don't worry Nugget fans, you team has great talent and will be on the rise very soon....


----------



## nybus54 (Feb 21, 2003)

We aint worryin, nice to see that you actually "see" what we all see, and dont just follow what the media says.

However, while this team may be good in the future, we would not be able to do well without a few more pieces. Howard will be gone forsure, and Harvey may not be back (hopefully not).Also i do not see camby having a future here. We should kepp at least 8 of our current player, and together with draft picks and free agents we will be great.

BTW, Skita will be awesome just like Nene is going to be!


----------



## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Nene is the building block, without him they don't have anything. He is the key to the entire thing.


----------



## W1Z0C0Z (Jun 18, 2002)

Ozzy you always confuse me so much..

You said Nene was going to be great, which is obvious

Then you come back and say...


> Nene is the building block, without him they don't have anything. He is the key to the entire thing.


Like someone is disagreeing with you..

nybus54 said..


> BTW, Skita will be awesome just like Nene is going to be!


Which means he also thinks Nene's gonna be awesome. I'm always so confused by what you say..

And like nybus said.. Howard won't be back next season. That gets rid of 20+ million. They'll probably get Darko or Anthony in the draft. Then they'll look 2 sign 2 free agents. Duncan and Kidd won't come, so I'm thinking Olowokandi and Andre Miller.


----------



## Desert Nomad (Jul 15, 2002)

Did Savocic not pan out or is he injured?

Looks like their gonna be a foreigner laden team before long. Milici, Hilario, Skita, etc.


----------



## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> BTW, Skita will be awesome just like Nene is going to be!


 I took that as saying Skita is going to be just as good, which is probably what it was intended for. But I think Nene is so good just the thought of comparing him to Skita is a big time mis-interpretation in my book. Nene is better than Skita, Skita will never be as good down the road, you can count on that. Saying Skita will be just as good is basically saying Nene is not going to improve much more. Because Nene is obviously ahead in production terms.

Believe me he is the key to that franchises success.


----------



## nybus54 (Feb 21, 2003)

They are uncomparable. Totally different players, but they will both be great. Do not doubt skita, when he was drafted Kiki said it'd take 2-3 years, and i am not losing patience. He has shown flashes, and will continue to grow. 

W1Z, i personally would rather trade down our pick if we could not get lebron. I dont think that darko or carmello can really fit into our system. At first i was really on board with carmello, but he now it seems to me that he wants to become more of an inside presence. We could trade down maybe with the bucks who have two firsts and get very good players. I like Darius rice, Tj ford, Sophocoles (baby shaq). If we were able to trade dwon and get two of them i'd rather do that.

As far as free agents go, miller and Kandi would be great, but as much as i like miller, i think that arenas may be a smarter pickup. renas is only 20, and he is playing right now about as good as miller is. Plus, he is probably going to be cheaper than miller. Kandi would also be good, but i dont think he is worth a max if that is what he is demanding. I would LOVE to end up with arenas and brand or odom, but that does not seem very likely since brand maybe resigned by the clips. Whatever happens, i trust KIKI.

Deser nomad, savo has not really gotten a chance to show his stuff. He was activated early in the year, but didnt really show much. I hope he gets activated soon and shows what he can do. If not, then he will probably be realesed at the end of the year.


----------



## NugzFan (Jul 26, 2002)

I like this thread. arguing over skita vs nene is a debate i can live with!

i want the nuggets 2003-04 lineup to look like this:

arenas
mags
white or skita
nene
darko


----------



## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> *You have a absolute STUD in Nene Hilario, that kid has a ton of talent and will be a elite post player in the NBA, a lock for the All Star team in my view.
> 
> *You have Nikoloz Tskitishvili, not a really productive player but has a ton of talent, a wonderful athlete at 7-0 that plays as fast as a guard. Nice basketball skill and has a good handle and jump shot.
> ...


Howard wont be in Denver next year.

Williams isn't as good as you are saying. If he was, he would have beat out Bremmer and Delk. I'd be surprised if he was playing any minutes next year.

Rodney White isn't a steal at all really. True he's young, and I'm not close minded, he may develop into a very good player, but I don't see how anyone can say that he is a steal. Like Williams, he wouldn't be on the Nuggets if there weren't problems with him. It's rare a team just gives up on a lottery pick. I've heard he has work ethic problems.

Camby. Considering him a positive is really weird. Even when he plays, he's strictly an overrated shot blocker. His offense isn't spectacular, and his man defense isn't great either. He's good getting help side blocks. That's about it.

Bowen. I'd rather have Mark Madsen as a hustle guy. I'd be surprised if he's playing for the Nuggets next year too.

Really, half the guys on your list may not be playing with the Nuggets next year. They really are only married to Skita and Nene. If they could land Kidd or Duncan or LeBron, they certainly would get rid of any of those other guys. That's what they've been positioning themselves towards.

Upside is an overused, meaningless term. Any guy with a 35 inch vertical is said to have great upside.


----------



## MPK (Oct 20, 2002)

i gotta disagree with you man. skita has more upside than say donell harvey or junior harrington. that means that skita has a better chance of becoming an impact player than harrington or harvey. chance of becoming an impact player-------that is upside


----------



## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> Rodney White isn't a steal at all really. True he's young, and I'm not close minded, he may develop into a very good player, but I don't see how anyone can say that he is a steal. Like Williams, he wouldn't be on the Nuggets if there weren't problems with him. It's rare a team just gives up on a lottery pick. I've heard he has work ethic problems.


Actually he is on the Nuggets because the Pistons did not have room for him, not because he was a bad player. Don't start to think that players are bad or have a bad attitude if they get traded around. And White, well he is really talented, and last time I checked the Nuggets need to collect all the talent they can get!





> Bowen. I'd rather have Mark Madsen as a hustle guy. I'd be surprised if he's playing for the Nuggets next year too.


 That is just wrong, Bowen is a much better player compared to Madsen, Bowen is more versitle and is more athletic, Madsen and Madsen would do nothing on the Nuggets because the Nuggets don't need "hustle" players at the post position because they have Harvey to clean up the garbage.





> Upside is an overused, meaningless term. Any guy with a 35 inch vertical is said to have great upside.


 Well just take a look at Rickey Davis, he came into the NBA and that is all he had, athletic ability, now look what he has become. Athletic ability is the starting point in most prospects development, if you have athletic skill you have something to build around. 

And if you don't think the Nuggets will keep Harvey, Anderson, White, Camby etc. Well I could name a ton of teams that would love to have them. Come'on Anderson has a ton of talent, same with White and Camby is no waste of space either...


----------



## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

I don't recall mentioning Anderson at all in my post.

I still have no idea why people think Marcus Camby is a quality player. I really don't get why other teams would want him.

Okay, so if Rodney White was such a super prospect wouldn't you have expected the Pistons to keep hold of him and drop a lesser talent then Tayshaun Prince? My explaination makes more sense. I mean, why would a team drop someone who could be such a fantastic player, maybe an allstar, in favor or someone who basically plays the same position 3 /4 as White? I mean, Prince isn't really getting off the bench. Frankly, I don't think your "they didn't have room for him" makes a lot of sense. Gee, if they hadn't had room for him, why were they able to pick up Danny Manning in the middle of the season?

I'd just rather have Mark Madsen overall because I like him more. I think Bowen is highly overrated as a "hustle" player. He doesn't really produce. Sure he hustles, but they'd be better off with a player with marginal level of skill. Also, I take issue with you calling me "wrong". It's an opinion. Don't be so arrogant as to disregard someone elses opinion. If I am willing to read what you wrote, keep an open mind, and not call you an idiot, I would expect a similar courtesy.

Ultimately, and I'm sad to say this, any critiques of the Nuggets from this year are going to be skewed towards their "greatness". Mostly because you have inferior players getting quality minutes. It also helps the teams don't get geared up for playing against lesser competition. Likley you have played high school ball, and you know that when you are playing a crappy team, it's just hard to get up for it. Thus, some players are allowed to dominate and show their promise, who wouldn't normally be any good.

I'm going to disagree a bit with your athletic potential. I have read a lot of your posts, and you rate players extremely high if they can run fast, jump high etc. etc. However, it does not have to be the only building block. Plus, I think that it is universally overused as a indicator of someones potential. Like I said, and I've seen dozens of guys fall into the trap that if someone is a big jumper, he's going to be a great player one day in the NBA. It's analagous to those And1 guys. Because they have mad dribbles and crazy passing skills, people sometimes think they will be fantastic. Being a good player is as much about fundamentals, desire and other intangibles as it is about having great hops.


----------



## NugzFan (Jul 26, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Springsteen</b>!
> 
> Okay, so if Rodney White was such a super prospect wouldn't you have expected the Pistons to keep hold of him and drop a lesser talent then Tayshaun Prince? My explaination makes more sense. I mean, why would a team drop someone who could be such a fantastic player, maybe an allstar, in favor or someone who basically plays the same position 3 /4 as White? I mean, Prince isn't really getting off the bench. Frankly, I don't think your "they didn't have room for him" makes a lot of sense. Gee, if they hadn't had room for him, why were they able to pick up Danny Manning in the middle of the season?
> 
> I'd just rather have Mark Madsen overall because I like him more. I think Bowen is highly overrated as a "hustle" player. He doesn't really produce. Sure he hustles, but they'd be better off with a player with marginal level of skill. Also, I take issue with you calling me "wrong". It's an opinion. Don't be so arrogant as to disregard someone elses opinion. If I am willing to read what you wrote, keep an open mind, and not call you an idiot, I would expect a similar courtesy.


a. we just ripped the pistons off, thats all

b. bowen is far better than madsen. bowen has actually won games himself believe it or not. madsen is a poor mans bowen. lol.


----------



## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>NugzFan</b>!
> 
> 
> a. we just ripped the pistons off, thats all
> ...


My problem is, I really hate Bowen, and really love Madsen. 

I'm still very very skeptical there isn't something tremendously wrong with White. Time will tell.


----------



## NugzFan (Jul 26, 2002)

ok so you hate bowen and love madsen. its just an opinion. no big deal.


----------



## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

you think there's some kind of secret problem with white? work ethic? he seems to be developing quite nicely to me.

the nugz have a TON of lanky athletes and i don't quite see them all fitting together. of course moves are going to be made and players signed. then there's the draft of course. 
i like what i see from a lot of these guys but they're still pretty raw and undersized. leaves lots of room for improvement of course...and i think they will.
the future should be bright for this team and i'm curious what changes and additions kiki will make. this is a decent collection of players but their current state is so unbelievably far from playoff calibre. i guess that's where cap room comes into play though.


----------



## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Springsteen</b>!
> 
> Okay, so if Rodney White was such a super prospect wouldn't you have expected the Pistons to keep hold of him and drop a lesser talent then Tayshaun Prince? My explaination makes more sense. I mean, why would a team drop someone who could be such a fantastic player, maybe an allstar, in favor or someone who basically plays the same position 3 /4 as White? I mean, Prince isn't really getting off the bench. Frankly, I don't think your "they didn't have room for him" makes a lot of sense. Gee, if they hadn't had room for him, why were they able to pick up Danny Manning in the middle of the season?
> 
> I'm going to disagree a bit with your athletic potential. I have read a lot of your posts, and you rate players extremely high if they can run fast, jump high etc. etc. However, it does not have to be the only building block. Plus, I think that it is universally overused as a indicator of someones potential. Like I said, and I've seen dozens of guys fall into the trap that if someone is a big jumper, he's going to be a great player one day in the NBA. It's analagous to those And1 guys. Because they have mad dribbles and crazy passing skills, people sometimes think they will be fantastic. Being a good player is as much about fundamentals, desire and other intangibles as it is about having great hops.


1. Tayshaun Prince is a more develop player than Rodney White. Rodney White was an underclassmen, he wa a freshman when he entered the draft while Prince was a senior. A more develop player does not equal better players in terms of how are they going to do in the future. For White's case, he was traded to the Nuggets because the Pistons didn't need him. The Pistons is going after the championship, they need a more ready player to help them. So, Prince is a better option than White. Danny Manning? I don't know what the #$%# they are thinking, but it's obvious that they need a ready player. If the Pistons kept White in the team, then he's not going to get some burns at all behind Williamson and Curry. Isn't it a waste to keep White in that condition? the Pistons don't have time to develop White's talent.

2. I agree being a good player is as much about fundamentals, desire and other intangibles as it is about having great hops. But, Wouldn't it be better if a player have both of them? You can teach fundamentals of basketball to them, but nobody can teach atlheticism.. its a gift. Players with excellent athletic ability have a better chance to be a very good basketball player. As they play more, they learn more about the game of basketball. no problem... MJ wasn't fundamentally sound when he first entered the league. He can't shoot very well, he relied too much on his athleticism. as he get older he learned more about the fundamentals.


----------



## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

I have to agree with the above post. The only knock on White was his horrendous defense, which he has picked up on and his fire. Personally if I wasa coach I would want someone like that on my team that shows this fire even though at times its only on the offensive side of the ball. Hes gotten alot better and for you to think he was'nt a steal. Lemme see what did Denver give up. mengke bateer and a 2nd rd draft pick. Thats a steal to me


----------



## NugzFan (Jul 26, 2002)

i agree except for the prince vs white part. getting prince had nothing to do with letting white go because prince isnt doing anything.


----------



## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RSP83</b>!
> 
> 
> 1. Tayshaun Prince is a more develop player than Rodney White. Rodney White was an underclassmen, he wa a freshman when he entered the draft while Prince was a senior. A more develop player does not equal better players in terms of how are they going to do in the future. For White's case, he was traded to the Nuggets because the Pistons didn't need him. The Pistons is going after the championship, they need a more ready player to help them. So, Prince is a better option than White. Danny Manning? I don't know what the #$%# they are thinking, but it's obvious that they need a ready player. If the Pistons kept White in the team, then he's not going to get some burns at all behind Williamson and Curry. Isn't it a waste to keep White in that condition? the Pistons don't have time to develop White's talent.
> ...


1. Yeah, the Prince comparison was just an example of how what Ozzy said wasn't the most plausible. I mean, Prince is a lower draft, and by all estimates a guy with "less upside", why would they keep a hold of him and not spend time with White, who, while a project could turn out to be solid. This makes even more sense in light of how Prince, as fundamentally sound as he is, isn't playing at all. You could make the argument that they keep Prince because they want to win now, and that he is now the better player, but he isn't playing any minutes anyway...so that's out.

I really don't have any proof of trouble with White. I haven't been ultra impressed with his play. Clearly much less impressed then a lot of people here. I just think it makes logical sense, that if Detroit gave up on him so soon, he isn't the super prospect some people are touting him as.

2. My issue with the athletics, is nearly every player with a 35 inch vertical is touted as a 1st round draft pick. I think it's ridiculous. You see guys coming into the league, like a Rodney White, who are great athletes, but have limited fundamentals and they are claimed to have "great upside". Don't get me wrong, the game is becoming more and more athletic, and athletic ability is as important as anything else, but it results in guys who are fundamentally sound, who can contribute right away, such as Casey Jacobsen, Carlos Boozer, Juan Dixon, get scathing reviews and labeled as guys who can't get any better. I think there are many cases where a player has huge athletic ability and is given way too many chances to succeed while a less athletic, more fundamentally sound player isn't given the same opportunities because of the stigma against his type. 

I also don't like the term "upside" as it is thrown around by nearly everyone about nearly every player. All it means is that someone could get better, and become really good. But how many players are drafted and guys go..."oh, well, he's as good today as he will be tomorrow and the next day..." everyone has upside...until you reach and then pass your prime.


----------



## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Like some have said Rodney White is much younger than Prince! Prince played 4 years in college, White played one season. So obviously Prince might look better right now. Hey a ton of SG looked better than Kobe when he came into the NBA, does that mean they are better than him? Hell no! They are just more advanced in there basketball development because of there age. Take for example Battier, I hate the guy when he came out. Why, well he can not improve on what he already has, he will not get better, he will only get worse. Some players have a upside to them because they are young, and you take into account the aspects of the game they could learn over time if they work at it. So that is where the athletic ability comes in, if every player works just as hard, then the better athlete will be the better player. Only problem is some athletes don't work hard all the time.

But back to White, I do not think he is athletic, I just think he is a very solid mismatch problem. He is a big kid, has a wonderful handle of the basketball, he can get to the hoop and is a competitor. I think his future will be much better than Prince because White has not shown what he can do yet. And part of the reason for the is he did not get any time to play on Detroit.

Again people probably said Al Harrington etc were not good players in the first few years of their career. But now look at the Pacers, they collected young talent and they are succeeding because of it....


----------



## NugzFan (Jul 26, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Like some have said Rodney White is much younger than Prince! Prince played 4 years in college, White played one season. So obviously Prince might look better right now.


but he doesnt.


----------



## Springsteen (Jan 24, 2003)

What you say Ozzy, only really makes sense if Joe Dumars is an idiot. The Pistons organisation has shown that they are pretty decent evaluators of talent (Wallace, Williamson etc.). I think they are aware of Prince being a more polished product right now, if that's the case (which even if it is, doesn't really matter, 'cause Prince is getting no pt). 

What it comes down to, is that Prince isn't playing, and neither would have White. But why would they keep around Prince and not White? If White was the prospect he's being touted as, why wouldn't they keep him on the end of the bench and develop him? I mean, its what the Pacers are doing/done with Harrington, Bender etc. The argument doesn't come down to an age issue, it comes down to an issue of how the Pistons view the situation. Saying that keeping White was impossible is a fallacy, as mid-season the Pistons were able to pick up Danny Manning. They could have even kept White on the IR and worked on him there. My argument is not based in his not getting playing time, or even a judegment of what he has done when he has had time to play. All I've been trying to say is that if he was the valuable commodity that you and others are saying he is, then the Pistons would have found a way to keep him there.

As for Battier, he was drafted high, but his talent level coming out was pretty solid, as he's a solid role player. Maybe another team would have been willing to take a risk on a White or a Johnson at the 5 spot, but already taking a risk on Gasol, an Swift previous, the Griz wanted someone solid to slide in and be able to make a contribution.

Also, I don't want to get into an argument about a player improving and not being able to improve. Are you saying someone with limited athletic ability can't get any better? Was Larry Bird the same player at 23 that he was at 27? You might as well use that as your example, not Battier. Both dominated college for more then 1 year. Both don't have an abundance of physical gifts, but are hustle players.


----------

