# Blake Griffin: Dirty player or physical player?



## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Tonight against the Lakers he shoved Lamar Odom in the back:



> While Randy Foye(notes) made a free throw to put the Clippers ahead 99-90, Griffin slammed aggressively into Odom’s back while seeking position for a possible rebound. Odom grabbed Griffin’s jersey and verbally expressed his displeasure.
> 
> “Maybe I overreacted, but I just feel like if you’re up 9, a ram in the back at that point?” Odom asked. “Any other time, I get it. You play hard, you’re strong, whatever, but the ram in the back (while) up 9? I don’t get it, so I’m just going to have to react.”


Link


He also shoved Andre Miller and Mario Chalmers in the back away from the action. It seems to be an ongoing issue with him.

Personally, I'm all for physical, tough play (I'm a Heat fan) but shoving guys in the back is cowardly. Going after little guys (Dre and Chalmers) is cowardly. Ilgauskas winded up and smacked him in the face and got a technical for it and Blake cowered like a mouse, so it's refreshing to see him at least tussle with a guy his size in Odom and not another small.

Being physical doesn't mean being dirty. Hitting guys in the back is dirty. This is on the level of KG going after Calderon and in the same ballpark as Carmelo stick 'n run.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

WTF...watch the play....Odom was mad because Griffin went to work on his tissue paper ass in the 2nd half.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

As long as people get him back like Andre Miller did it'll be all good.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Goonish type of player. Nothing dirty about that.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Jesus, you Heat fans just can't let go, can you?


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

E.H. Munro said:


> Jesus, you Heat fans just can't let go, can you?


Somebody is cranky after a Jets ass whooping.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)




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## Pump Bacon (Dec 11, 2010)

I agree that pushing players' backs can be a dirty/bully move but its also a pretty common tactic especially in the closing moments of a game; even moreso when its the underdog against a more talented ballclub although in this case the game was just about over with (then again its hard to trust they'd finish considering its the Clippers vs Kobe). Just have to play physical and stand your ground or gamble on the whistles and exaggerate the contact so the refs can call it.

From what I saw it didn't really look dirty though; looked like Odom just lost his cool although if he tried to jump/rebound with Griffin pushing it could've been bad I suppose.


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## FreeMason Jr. (Jul 12, 2004)

I need a better angle. From the vid MemphisX posted, I didn't see Blake do anything wrong.

And did Artest get ejected simply for being Artest? All he did was pull Odom off Blake. Seriously, wtf?


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

That wasnt a dirty play. Odom was just sick of getting owned.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

LOL at Baron. VDN is trying to push him away and he keeps dodgin him to stare down LO :laugh:


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

So, let's see, after a standard rebounding tussle, Odom loses his cool and immediately locks on to the nearest guy 6'4" and under (as he normally does), which makes Blake a "dirty player and a coward" in the minds of demented Heat fans. Is that about it?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

I mean he's really physical and he's probably teetering on the edge of the two but I don't really see a problem with how aggresive he has been this season. It's actually kind of refreshing.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

Another gem from the Skip Bayless of bbb.net (or whatever this site is called).


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Kardashian overreacted. That's ridiculous


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Get your weight up Khloe!


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

lol @ that being a shove in the back and a dirty play... Really Odom? Come on man... Also that's hilarious that Blake got tossed. He just sat there.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

Griffin..."please don't hit me Mr. Odom."


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## 36 Karat (Nov 10, 2005)

E.H. Munro said:


> So, let's see, after a standard rebounding tussle, Odom loses his cool and immediately locks on to the nearest guy 6'4" and under (as he normally does), which makes Blake a "dirty player and a coward" in the minds of demented Heat fans. Is that about it?


This. One up on my Griffin respect-o-meter for acting in a far more mature fashion than Mr. Kardashian.


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## FreeMason Jr. (Jul 12, 2004)

36 Karat said:


> One up on my Griffin respect-o-meter for acting in a far more mature fashion than Mr. Kardashian.


And still getting ejected :nonono:


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## joser (Nov 29, 2005)

Griffin pushed Chalmers because when Gomes was running up, Chalmers tried to trip him. Blake saw and gave Chalmers a check.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Yes Griffin is dirty, and quite smug. I enjoy his highlight dunks as much as the next sports fan. However I'm not at all a fan of his cocky attitude. Especially for a rook. We need more guys like Andre Miller with an edge about them. So when they retaliate against Griffin, he will remember not to **** with somebody from Compton California ever again. In this case Andre Miller PG for the Portland Trailblazers.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Dre™ said:


> As long as people get him back like Andre Miller did it'll be all good.


Already mentioned that


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

23AJ said:


> Yes Griffin is dirty, and quite smug. I enjoy his highlight dunks as much as the next sports fan. However I'm not at all a fan of his cocky attitude. Especially for a rook. We need more guys like Andre Miller with an edge about them. So when they retaliate against Griffin, he will remember not to **** with somebody from Compton California ever again. In this case Andre Miller PG for the Portland Trailblazers.


It cracks me up how not one of those three shoves were called a foul. The second one by Blake clearly wasn't but the other two could of been (and Dre's lead to a suspension).


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

I liked what I saw, its about time we had a true rivalry between these two teams...get some emotion involved, and the next game will be fun to watch.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Btw, I like how Lamar's comment was around the same sort of sentiment of Chris Bosh's but nobody seems to care about what Odom said.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Hibachi! said:


> Btw, I like how Lamar's comment was around the same sort of sentiment of Chris Bosh's but nobody seems to care about what Odom said.


What comment was that?


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

23AJ said:


> he will remember not to **** with somebody from Compton California ever again


Compton is in my backyard and I can tell you for a fact that there are a whole hell of a lot more rough and tumble places than Compton in So Cal.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I think he just gets amped up and goes on mini-roid rages from time to time. You see his teammates have to calm him down in their huddle sometimes. It's probably a by-product of that. Plus insecurity over his own toughness. If he doesn't figure it out though, it's a weakness that will be exploited similar to how teams exploit Dwight Howard's tantrums.

Not a huge deal though, and probably in the end good for his team which probably can use the extra physicality.

It's nothing Karl Malone wouldn't have done to be honest.


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## BeeGee (Jul 9, 2010)

Ron said:


> Compton is in my backyard and I can tell you for a fact that there are a whole hell of a lot more rough and tumble places than Compton in So Cal.


Ron, just stop it, man. 

Anyway, who cares about this. Odom was mad about Blake's agressive play with the game already in the bag and only 9 seconds left (per his comments). Blake says there's no time of any game that he won't play hard (per his comments). Odom needs to realize that not everybody subscribes to his way of thinking. He was obviously bitter. I still like his attitude, though.

On the surface, this reminded me of the Artest/Wallace incident. Pacers had the game in the bag, and Big Ben got pissed about a hard foul from Artest. The rest of course, is NBA legend. 

The funniest part about this whole thing is Baron Davis acting like he was gonna do anything to anybody. For a second there, Boom Dizzle looked like a team player. Here's to the battle for L.A. getting better in the future. I'm loving the Clippers with Eric Gordon (MIP?) and Blake Griffin (ROY?).


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

WOW I would been slung across the court for nearly each rebound I went for if every player reacted like Odom.


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## 77AJ (Feb 16, 2005)

Ron said:


> Compton is in my backyard and I can tell you for a fact that there are a whole hell of a lot more rough and tumble places than Compton in So Cal.


Maybe, but Andre Miller isn't from a privileged background, and didn't grow up in the safe confines of an ideal neighborhood. Plus add to the fact he's always been a gamer, he's also got what 10 plus years on Blake in age, he's a veteran in the NBA, with a hard work ethic that never misses games. He's not the kind of NBA vet that is going to take any of the cheap shots Blake Griffin is getting a reputation for. Hence him knocking big ole Blake Griffin on his backside. And afterwards had a few choice words for him as well. 

Incase people are not familiar with Andre Millers background/story, and you're the type that likes the human interest stories. Check out this link I'm providing about Andre Miller and his old stomping grounds.

http://sportsmed.starwave.com/magazine/vol5no23miller.html


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

As long as you hit him back, I see nothing wrong with it. We need more physicality (at least in the paint).


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

How can anyone consider this a dirty play? Come on now.


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

neither.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

Adam said:


> Tonight against the Lakers he shoved Lamar Odom in the back:
> 
> 
> Link
> ...



This is a terrible and i mean a terrible thread to say the very least. Dude what Griffin did to Odom was not even close of a dirty play. They were both fighting for position to get a rebound. Odom was the one that started this sh4t by grabbing Griffin's jersey. Odom just hates that Griffin was easily abusing him. 


Did Griffin push Miller? Yea but so what? He did was just alittle push. <<<Nothing wrong with that. Shaq push many little guys way harder then Griffin has but i don't see you typing stuff about that right? Dwight Howard also has push many little guys but yet i don't see you bashing Howard for that right???? 



Like i said this thread is just terrible.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

23AJ said:


> Maybe, but Andre Miller isn't from a privileged background, and didn't grow up in the safe confines of an ideal neighborhood. Plus add to the fact he's always been a gamer, he's also got what 10 plus years on Blake in age, he's a veteran in the NBA, with a hard work ethic that never misses games. He's not the kind of NBA vet that is going to take any of the cheap shots Blake Griffin is getting a reputation for. Hence him knocking big ole Blake Griffin on his backside. And afterwards had a few choice words for him as well.
> 
> Incase people are not familiar with Andre Millers background/story, and you're the type that likes the human interest stories. Check out this link I'm providing about Andre Miller and his old stomping grounds.
> 
> http://sportsmed.starwave.com/magazine/vol5no23miller.html



Howard, Shaq, even Bynum and the rest big guys have push little guys way harder then what Griffin did to Miller.


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## Pay Ton (Apr 18, 2003)

I love it. People are bitching and moaning about Kevin Garnett, and saying they can't wait for him to get out of the league, and then Griffin comes along right on cue.

I hope he takes KG's throne. I hope he's worse.

We need more on-the-court villains. Lebron is a villain now, but that's because of the things he does off the court. On the court he's just a great player but he doesn't do anything villainous. 

I like Griffin more and more as I hear about these things.


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## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

23AJ said:


> Yes Griffin is dirty, and quite smug. I enjoy his highlight dunks as much as the next sports fan. However I'm not at all a fan of his cocky attitude. Especially for a rook. We need more guys like Andre Miller with an edge about them. So when they retaliate against Griffin, he will remember not to **** with somebody from Compton California ever again. In this case Andre Miller PG for the Portland Trailblazers.


What a joke. Nothing Griffin did in that video (or ever does) falls outside the scope of playing hard. Who looks like the rookie and who looks like the 12 year vet in that video? Miller totally lost his **** over a little bit of physical play. I love how after taking the shot from Miller, Griffin picked himself up and went right at the basket. No pleading with the refs for a call or retaliation of any kind. The guy is cold as ice.

What all of this looks like to me is NBA players don't like to sweat. A guy comes around who is actually going to challenge them for space and not concede rebounds, and nobody knows how to react.


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## VCHighFly (May 7, 2004)

MLKG said:


> A guy comes around who is actually going to challenge them for space and not concede rebounds, and nobody knows how to react.


This completely sums up the situation as I see it. These guys are so sensitive. It's just a smaller version of how players reacted to Rodman... who was more dirty than Blake but not as strong.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

even Odom himself said he would understand the play if only the game wasnt already decided - the play was not dirty, just (according to Odom) not necessary at that point with the outcome no longer in doubt


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

Odom overreacted I think mainly because he was surprised at somebody going after the ball like that with the outcome of the game decided. Usually with 5 seconds left the teams wouldn't even have anybody in there. It looks like Odom was just content with playing the remaining seconds of the game out and Blake wasn't. To me it's not a dirty play but people do need to realize that if Odom jumps on the play it's a foul on Griffin, and secondly I could easily see why Odom would be like "WTF are you doing the games done..." which it looked like he was doing until Baron Davis pushed him.

Finally...Artest got ejected for what exactly? ****ing NBA.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

23AJ said:


> Yes Griffin is dirty, and quite smug. I enjoy his highlight dunks as much as the next sports fan. However I'm not at all a fan of his cocky attitude. Especially for a rook. We need more guys like Andre Miller with an edge about them. So when they retaliate against Griffin, he will remember not to **** with somebody from Compton California ever again. In this case Andre Miller PG for the Portland Trailblazers.


We need more guys with an 'edge' about them but less guys who actually play in the paint with a set of balls. Uh-huh.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

I don't care if a big pushes around a guard under the basket. That's his job. I don't see how thats comparable to KG, who followed around the smallest players in the league trash talking them, and then acts like a bitch if anyone even close to his size speaks up.

Blakes doing his job. KG is a coward and a bitch. Not comparable.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Blake didn't even go after the ball _that_ hard. Odom's complaining about nothing, nothing really to see here.




23AJ said:


> Maybe, but Andre Miller isn't from a privileged background, and didn't grow up in the safe confines of an ideal neighborhood. Plus add to the fact he's always been a gamer, he's also got what 10 plus years on Blake in age, he's a veteran in the NBA, with a hard work ethic that never misses games. He's not the kind of NBA vet that is going to take any of the cheap shots Blake Griffin is getting a reputation for. Hence him knocking big ole Blake Griffin on his backside. And afterwards had a few choice words for him as well.


Those......those weren't cheap shots. At all. Blake's a big guy who was fighting for space, and Miller happened to be a point guard who was getting tossed around and had a hissy fit. If Miller doesn't like getting knocked around he shouldn't be fighting bigs for rebounds, that's part of the game. The only thing the video you posted showed was that, if anyone, Miller's the dirty player with a temper.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Adam said:


> Ilgauskas winded up and smacked him in the face and got a technical for it and Blake cowered like a mouse, so it's refreshing to see him at least tussle with a guy his size in Odom and not another small.


......because the correct decision for a franchise guy to make is to get into a fistfight with the opponents backup center instead of finishing off the team you're beating. Blake got into Miami's head and they couldn't take him out of the game, don't act like Miami won a moral victory because he didn't beat up Z.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Zydrunas Ilgauskas, NBA enforcer

heh...


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

E.H. Munro said:


> So, let's see, after a standard rebounding tussle, Odom loses his cool and immediately locks on to the nearest guy 6'4" and under (as he normally does), which makes Blake a "dirty player and a coward" in the minds of demented Heat fans. Is that about it?


You forgot the part where odom expects everyone else to stop trying when he does.


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## EGarrett (Aug 12, 2002)

Blake is trying to crash the boards and jump over people. I don't think he's doing it intentionally. I used to get in scuffles over the same thing in playground games.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Baron sticks up for his teammate*



> The one thing Davis doesn’t want to happen is for the powerful Griffin to soften his game.
> 
> “A dunk takes the steam out of people, especially when it’s a big guy,” Davis told Y! Sports. “So when you’re dunking on people three to four times in a game, it just deflates you. It deflates your interior defense. The only retaliation is to cheap-shot somebody.
> 
> “I think it’s unfair because this kid is … not being brash or talking [expletive] to people. The only other way to protect yourself as a player playing against him is to cheap-shot him. So you see people jumping in his way. We throw lobs and people undercut him. It’s unfair.”


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Ron said:


> What comment was that?


Complaining about how he was annoyed that Griffin was battling for position while they're up 9 and the game is out of reach.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

I enjoy how people talk about the good ole days of bball, when players weren't soft - only to complain when a player comes along who plays aggressive, physical basketball.

then they tuck their tails and whine.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Whatever Tragedy. You just like violence.

If Blake Griffin was a stand up guy, and not a thug, he would have played Odom paper rock scissors to see who got the rebound. After the game ended in a 60-60 tie, all the players would ride home together, on bridges made of rainbows.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

R-Star said:


> Whatever Tragedy. You just like violence.
> 
> If Blake Griffin was a stand up guy, and not a thug, he would have played Odom paper rock scissors to see who got the rebound. After the game ended in a 60-60 tie, all the players would ride home together, on bridges made of rainbows.


Additionally, any player from a neighborhood commonly mentioned in rap albums will be given free reign to do what they like unopposed, lest they demonstrate their toughness through cheap shots and extensive complaining to the media.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

I think people kind of feel like he isn't tough but is protected. He can be tough as long as he has back up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u05Qot_yh9c

When in the end this is really him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyF5QeW94Wo&feature=related


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Tom said:


> I think people kind of feel like he isn't tough but is protected. He can be tough as long as he has back up.



Here's the problem I have with that line of thought: at no point when a player went back after him did he stop playing hard. It'd be one thing if he was throwing his body around and going after lose balls up until someone got in his face, and then he suddenly turned into Brook Lopez, but he just keeps doing his thing irrespective of cheap-shots/jawing. The idea that he isn't tough because he just walks away when someone gets in his face is idiotic.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

I have seen him turn and stare at people. He is showing up some people. And getting dunked on like that has to hurt:explosion::explosion:


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Tom said:


> I have seen him turn and stare at people. He is showing up some people.



Really? I mean, honestly? He's provoking fights and engaging in egregious self-aggrandizement by looking at his defender?


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

Think of it this way...For me. I didn't see that in college and I liked him. I see more attitude now and I don't like it. I think he is too good to play that way. I'm just from the act like you've been there school. I think people think he is trying to show them up and created a highlight reel rather than worry about the score of the game. He can tone that down and still play with enthusiasm. It will be better for the fans, the game and his health.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Bogg said:


> ......because the correct decision for a franchise guy to make is to get into a fistfight with the opponents *backup center* instead of finishing off the team you're beating. Blake got into Miami's head and they couldn't take him out of the game, don't act like Miami won a moral victory because he didn't beat up Z.


Eh-hem, Z is a starter 

Blake looks like a bit of a tool when he does that stare down after a dunk etc, but hey, he's balling so can't really blame the kid.

Didn't think there was much in the Odom incident either TBH.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

See......he's really not though. Just the fact that you're trying to make the argument that he's going overboard trying to show guys up and the best you could come up with was "I have seen him turn and stare at people" should make you reconsider. He plays _extremely_ hard whistle to whistle, and veterans don't like being embarrassed by a rookie, that's really what all this comes down to.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Wade County said:


> Blake looks like a bit of a tool when he does that stare down after a dunk etc, but hey, he's balling so can't really blame the kid.


And Lebron looks like a bit of a tool when he dances on the sideline during a blowout and talks junk to guys on the bench who aren't even in the rotation, but hey, he's balling so nobody really blames the guy.


(fyi: that was tongue in cheek. I'm not having a conversation over whether Lebron catches flak for stuff)


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

What argument am i supposed to come up with...I've seen him play and he goes past normal enthusiasm. It obviously has his team playing better, but I don't like it. He doesn't have to punch someone to be annoying.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Tom said:


> What argument am i supposed to come up with...I've seen him play and he goes past normal enthusiasm. It obviously has his team playing better, but I don't like it. He doesn't have to punch someone to be annoying.



Come up with the reasonable argument first. "I find some of his mannerisms unnecessary" is a far cry from "He acts like the toughest guy on the block but changes tune as soon as he's challenged".


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

Bogg said:


> And Lebron looks like a bit of a tool when he dances on the sideline during a blowout and talks junk to guys on the bench who aren't even in the rotation, but hey, he's balling so nobody really blames the guy.
> 
> 
> (fyi: that was tongue in cheek. I'm not having a conversation over whether Lebron catches flak for stuff)


Plenty of people think that LeBron is a tool with his behavior.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Blake is kind of a punk but it's players like him who play with his physicality that really help you win basketball games. Clippers are playing their best basketball since Elton Brand's MVP type season in 2006 and it's primarily if not solely because of Blake.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

MLKG said:


> Another gem from the Skip Bayless of bbb.net (or whatever this site is called).


Blake Griffin has been in three altercations 40 games into his NBA career and I'm simply asking the question whether he is dirty or just physical. It's an interesting topic and at the very least the discussion that he is punking veterans and they don't like it is something to observe.

Still no clue why you even post here (it's a forum) if you hate discussion so much. You who has admitted he doesn't even watch basketball because Dwyane Wade ruined it for him.

The Boston fan that somehow made it about the Heat was amusing though. Nice to see a belligerent drunk Boston fan after his fake team gets destroyed.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Adam said:


> The Boston fan that somehow made it about the Heat was amusing though. Nice to see a belligerent drunk Boston fan after his fake team gets destroyed.


You, uh...........you don't know what tongue-in-cheek means, do you?


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Dirty or physical?

How about "talented?"

47 and 14 today.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

Bogg said:


> Come up with the reasonable argument first. "I find some of his mannerisms unnecessary" is a far cry from "He acts like the toughest guy on the block but changes tune as soon as he's challenged".


I'll get my assistant to go through the archives...geez. It is what I've seen. I don't think the thread would have been started if there weren't some something to it beyond this past incident.

And 47 and 15 for a big man is pretty sick.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

He's one of those dudes who people complain about, but wouldn't complain at all if he was on their team.

His energy has turned around the clippers. The Clips are 7-3 in their last 10, and he's dominating. If I'm a coach, owner or GM, I want a player like him.

He's arrogant and brash, yeah. Very physical - sure. But you know what? 22 and 13 from a rookie?  You can do that. He's not over the top with it, and he's not getting in everyone's face.

You don't want that kind of attitude from a bum. But a guy who's the engine of your team? Give me that every day.


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## Noyze (Oct 7, 2010)

I assume you guys want another 6-10 to 7 foot player who doesn't rebound and likes to shoot 3 pointers. 

I applaud Blake's style, Clippers would be **** without him and if this was the 80's to mid 90's this thread wouldn't have even been made.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Bogg said:


> You, uh...........you don't know what tongue-in-cheek means, do you?


He doesn't know the meaning to lots of words. The saving grace is that if/when Miami is knocked out of the playoffs we won't need to see him for three months.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Blake is kind of a punk but it's players like him who play with his physicality that really help you win basketball games. Clippers are playing their best basketball since Elton Brand's MVP type season in 2006 and it's primarily if not solely because of Blake.


Eric Gordon might just have a teeny weeny bit too.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Adam said:


> Blake Griffin has been in three altercations 40 games into his NBA career and I'm simply asking the question whether he is dirty or just physical. It's an interesting topic and at the very least the discussion that he is punking veterans and they don't like it is something to observe.
> 
> Still no clue why you even post here (it's a forum) if you hate discussion so much. You who has admitted he doesn't even watch basketball because Dwyane Wade ruined it for him.
> 
> The Boston fan that somehow made it about the Heat was amusing though. Nice to see a belligerent drunk Boston fan after his fake team gets destroyed.


The only real belligerent in this thread has been the guy that stares you in the face when you shave in the morning. You didn't "ask a question" you came in here to boo hoo about the Heat loss to the Clippers. You started with an angry condemnation of a "shove in the back" that never happened, and when people laughed at your temper tantrum you got even angrier. Congratulations, you're the Paulo Catarino of Heat fans.


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

Dirty.... what the hell is this now!? Has the NBA sunk so low that Griffin is being hated on for hustling. Even Spice Bosh complained because a player was hustling for a loose ball. Anyone thinking it's dirty needs to grow some balls and man up.


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## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

E.H. Munro said:


> The only real belligerent in this thread has been the guy that stares you in the face when you shave in the morning. You didn't "ask a question" you came in here to boo hoo about the Heat loss to the Clippers.


What do the Heat have to do with this thread? The subject is Blake Griffin pushing players in the back. The fact that one of the players he pushed in the back plays for my team is tangential. Even if the Heat had won the game I would have made this thread so your argument is lousy. And there's clearly a question mark in the thread title. There was a question posed. You can agree, disagree, reject the question and explain why but all you're doing is criticizing my opinion on the subject.



> You started with an angry condemnation of a "shove in the back" that never happened, and when people laughed at your temper tantrum you got even angrier. Congratulations, you're the Paulo Catarino of Heat fans.


I think he's a dirty player. That's my opinion. Some people agreed with me. I didn't throw a "temper tantrum" when anybody said they thought he isn't a dirty player. If anybody threw a tantrum it was you just because I dared to give my own opinion in a persuasive format. Instead of using the forum for discussion as it's intended you resorted to silly accusations of bias and attacks on the team I support.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Blake is kind of a punk but it's players like him who play with his physicality that really help you win basketball games. Clippers are playing their best basketball since Elton Brand's MVP type season in 2006 and it's *primarily if not solely because of Blake*.


Eric Gordon, Baron Davis and DeAndre Jordan say hello.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

You can't deny that Griffin is the primary reason the Clippers are balling right now.

Eric Gordon is also a pretty huge reason though.

I remember Adam talking up DeAndre Jordan when Kaman went down and everyone laughed. DeAndre is rebounding and blocking shots at an elite level.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Adam said:


> What do the Heat have to do with this thread? The subject is Blake Griffin pushing players in the back.


Griffin didn't shove Odom in the back.



Adam said:


> Even if the Heat had won the game I would have made this thread


No you wouldn't have.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Gordon is having a good season, but Griffin is the engine that is creating wins. Maybe solely was extreme but Griffin is the primary reason they're winning gaes.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Primary might be exaggerating a tad bit and I am a huge Blake fan but those other guys are busting their chops night in, night out too. Y'all realize once Baron started getting into game shape, they started winning more games right?


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Adam said:


> The subject is Blake Griffin pushing players in the back.


See.......for the most part, he's not though. What Miller did was 100% forethought-with-intent-to-injure dirty. What Odom did was, if not dirty, out of line and just plain whiny. Illgauskus was assessed a flagrant, so it was officially dirty. Griffin's just playing really hard and other players don't like it. He's a *big* guy and Andre Miller is smaller than me, the same contact that's just jockeying for position against LaMarcus Aldridge may send Miller stumbling, but that doesn't make it dirty, it's the exact reason you have big men in the paint. As much as some people are trying to paint Blake as some emotional punk that doesn't know how to control himself, it's really these veterans with over 10 years in the league who are being taken out of their game and losing their cool. If anything, I say good on Blake for being able to play as hard as he can while still remaining in control emotionally.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

HB said:


> Primary might be exaggerating a tad bit and I am a huge Blake fan but those other guys are busting their chops night in, night out too. Y'all realize once Baron started getting into game shape, they started winning more games right?


Silly logic. The clips aren't winning because baron suddenly decided to show up. You could flip it and say if Blake stopped playing hard and they lost a few, then decided to play again and they won then he'd be the reason according to your logic. 

I'm not gonna cosign an argument that gives credit to a guy who should be playing at that level. 

The biggest change for the clippers from last season to this is the addition of Blake Griffin. Dude has been playing his ass off all year. Baron deciding to join the team isn't the reason why theyre playing better.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Yeah they were definitely doing great with Foye/Bledsoe manning the point. Smh!

And again, Blake is an important reason as to why they are winning, but those other guys are putting in work too. Finito!


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## joser (Nov 29, 2005)

HB said:


> Yeah they were definitely doing great with Foye/Bledsoe manning the point. Smh!
> 
> And again, Blake is an important reason as to why they are winning, but those other guys are putting in work too. Finito!


I agree with you. I am a big Clipper fan and Without any of these 4: Baron, Gordon, Griffin, and Jordan, The Clippers would end up short of winning just like in the beginning of the Clipper season. 

Those 4 play a very important role in the team.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

The thing is, without Griffin, Baron would still be rotting away in complacency. Baron sucked last year because he didn't care. Blake is the spark and the foundation of all hope in Clipperland. Come on.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Griffin is the guy that's the entire focus of opposing defenses, I know the roleplayers are important, but Griffin's the gas that's powering the engine.


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## johnnyb (Nov 20, 2010)

Why is Griffin battling for a rebound when the game has already been decided? It's like running up the score...there's really no reason for it, except to insult a beaten opponent.

Guy is a rookie...I would be surprised if he does something like this as a veteran. It has absolutely nothing to do with his "motor", only his mentality.

J-


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

I still think the most important question is wtf did Artest do? do refs now just look around and say 'oh yeah, and you, you're out of here too!'?

but the second most important question given the direction of this thread might be this: what is different with this Clipper squad from this season to last season?

answer that one and you may be able to resolve all these arguments


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## Noyze (Oct 7, 2010)

e-monk said:


> I still think the most important question is wtf did Artest do? do refs now just look around and say 'oh yeah, and you, you're out of here too!'?
> 
> but the second most important question given the direction of this thread might be this: what is different with this Clipper squad from this season to last season?
> 
> answer that one and you may be able to resolve all these arguments


They just recinded the tech on Artest and Griffin. 

Also, it was said on the game tonight that Kobe didn't back up Odom's comment about the play that led to the fight. Odom said it was over cause they were already up 9 points. Kobe said Griffin punked the Lakers and you should never give up in response to what Odom said. Kobe was mad about the loss too.


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## rayz789 (Oct 30, 2008)

johnnyb said:


> Why is Griffin battling for a rebound when the game has already been decided? It's like running up the score...there's really no reason for it, except to insult a beaten opponent.
> 
> Guy is a rookie...I would be surprised if he does something like this as a veteran. It has absolutely nothing to do with his "motor", only his mentality.
> 
> J-



Why was Odom fighting to get a rebound if he knows his lakers don't have a chance to win? Look what griffin is doing is nothing. As griffin said, until the buzz sound for the game to be over and since he's in the game, he's going to continue what he does this season. Nothing wrong of fighting to get a rebound when the game is already over. Maybe Griffin wants to get the ball so that the game will be over already.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

johnnyb said:


> Why is Griffin battling for a rebound when the game has already been decided? It's like running up the score...there's really no reason for it, except to insult a beaten opponent.
> 
> Guy is a rookie...I would be surprised if he does something like this as a veteran. It has absolutely nothing to do with his "motor", only his mentality.
> 
> J-


why are the lakers fouling people when the game is clearly over? If the game is decided and you've given up, dont put guys on the line to drag it out. 

Also, FWIW, when the ball was in the air and griffin was battling for position, they were up 8, not 9.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Oh and before I forget, I don't appreciate that punkass announcer yelling "you know Ron Artest's in it" like a little hoe when the guy is clearly trying to break it up.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Just further proof that Odom is soft like frogurt. This is why Odom isn't an All Star or HOF player like he has the ability to be. Players with talent AND who bust their asses for the full 48mins will be great players in the league.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

plus he screws the wrong sister


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## johnnyb (Nov 20, 2010)

Jeez, where do you guys draw the line?

Should players look to foul hard in the final 10 seconds of a decided game just to show how they aren't soft, or how they are future HOFers? 

I mean, if it was a game in a hotly contested post-season series, I could get behind it more. It's one game in a comparatively meaningless regular season.

The notion that it somehow proves how awesome Griffin is, is completely ridiculous. It only shows how little he understands the long NBA season, not to mention the long post-season (assuming the Clippers make it). Those of us who have watched the NBA long enough know that it is a marathon, not a sprint. There is one goal: win. Once that is accomplished, what else is there to do?

Trust me, once he plays back to back to back 82+ game seasons, he will not be making this play. Will he be soft then?

J-


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

does anyone here remember what happened at the palace and why?


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

e-monk said:


> plus he screws the wrong sister


Yeah, how the hell do end up with Princess Fiona when you're a basketball star playing for the NBA's glamour franchise?


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

johnnyb said:


> Jeez, where do you guys draw the line?
> 
> Should players look to foul hard in the final 10 seconds of a decided game just to show how they aren't soft, or how they are future HOFers?
> 
> ...


No, boxing out is not a hard foul. If Odom didn't want to be shown that he's a big sissy, then he should have boxed out. Why is no one mad at him for not boxing out?


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

johnnyb said:


> Jeez, where do you guys draw the line?


When a player throws a hissy fit during a game because the opposition went up for a rebound, that's where I draw the line on right and wrong. Blake didn't even step in all that hard, my guess is that Odom was frustrated by the loss, more than a little angry about being outplayed by Griffin, and lashed out over that, only later trying to blame it on a phantom "ramming". I honestly don't know how anyone could take Odom's side outside of them being a full-on Laker fan.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

why do you have to go there? did you miss out on this 'full-on Laker fan' doing the opposite and saying it wasnt a dirty play? (haters gotta hate I guess)


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

e-monk said:


> why do you have to go there? did you miss out on this 'full-on Laker fan' doing the opposite and saying it wasnt a dirty play? (haters gotta hate I guess)


Because some fans of a team will blindly side with their own players regardless of circumstance. Other fans are completely rational and grounded about their own team. Relax, nobody was talking about you, just that the only circumstance under which I could reasonably see a person taking Odom's side would be if they were choosing sides out of blind loyalty. Every fan base has those types of people.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

e-monk said:


> does anyone here remember what happened at the palace and why?


Are you talking about when Ron Artest decided he had a better shot a winning a fight with the entire city of Detroit rather than fighting one juiced up Ben Wallace? Yes. I do.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Artest needed time off to launch his rap career.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Hyperion said:


> Are you talking about when Ron Artest decided he had a better shot a winning a fight with the entire city of Detroit rather than fighting one juiced up Ben Wallace? Yes. I do.


ah but the circumstances - game effectively over, Artest's team up in a decisive win yet Artest still playing with intensity fouls Wallace

and then it was Wallace who started the fight, remember

(just throwing it out there as an example of something kind of similar that went very wrong)


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Hyperion said:


> Are you talking about when Ron Artest decided he had a better shot a winning a fight with the entire city of Detroit rather than fighting one juiced up Ben Wallace? Yes. I do.


That never happened. He walked away from a fight only to get pelted with a beer from some dick head fan. When Ron walks away from a fight, hes using whatever tiny little bit of sanity he has not to get suspended. Not because hes afraid of someone. 

Artest isn't/wasn't afraid of anyone. Get your facts straight.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

e-monk said:


> ah but the circumstances - game effectively over, Artest's team up in a decisive win yet Artest still playing with intensity fouls Wallace
> 
> and then it was Wallace who started the fight, remember
> 
> (just throwing it out there as an example of something kind of similar that went very wrong)


Its Ron Artest. Hes insane. It's not really a similar circumstance.

Someone throws a beer on Odom, he starts to cry, someone throws a beer on Artest the (at the time) thug Pacers go to war with a whole arena.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

yeah but it was Wallace who started the fight because he didnt think the rough play was necessary with the game all but over the result a fait accompli - so Odom is Wallace not Artest in this scenario


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

R-Star said:


> That never happened. He walked away from a fight only to get pelted with a beer from some dick head fan. When Ron walks away from a fight, hes using whatever tiny little bit of sanity he has not to get suspended. Not because hes afraid of someone.
> 
> Artest isn't/wasn't afraid of anyone. Get your facts straight.


I'd walk away from a fight with Wallace too. He may be crazy, but he isn't stupid.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

Can we all stop arguing over whose favorite player would beat up who and acknowledge that Artest putting a hard foul on a player and then charging into the stands has zero in common with Griffin stepping in for a rebound and then walking away from an altercation calmly?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Bogg said:


> Can we all stop arguing over whose favorite player would beat up who and acknowledge that Artest putting a hard foul on a player and then charging into the stands has zero in common with Griffin stepping in for a rebound and then walking away from an altercation calmly?


sure but only if we can agree that Wallace getting pissed off and starting an altercation over a physical play because the game was already decided and he was losing is pretty much exactly like Odom reacting to a physical play under the same circumstances in exactly the same way

the difference is Griffin is not bat **** crazy like Artest and the people at Stales pay way too much for their beers to be throwing them out of the stands


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

I thought the people at the Staples Center drank Smirnoff Ice?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

those are the Clippers fans


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

True, OK, so don't they drink Mike's Hard Lemonade? :bsmile:


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## johnnyb (Nov 20, 2010)

Hyperion said:


> No, boxing out is not a hard foul. If Odom didn't want to be shown that he's a big sissy, then he should have boxed out. Why is no one mad at him for not boxing out?


You missed my point...no big. I personally don't feel that boxing out was important at that point in the game. But, not boxing when it counted...that is different.



Bogg said:


> When a player throws a hissy fit during a game because the opposition went up for a rebound, that's where I draw the line on right and wrong. Blake didn't even step in all that hard, my guess is that Odom was frustrated by the loss, more than a little angry about being outplayed by Griffin, and lashed out over that, only later trying to blame it on a phantom "ramming". I honestly don't know how anyone could take Odom's side outside of them being a full-on Laker fan.


Always amusing when a completely biased post indicts someone else for bias.

How hard Blake "stepped in", or pushed, isn't at issue...the question is, was a push in the back necessary at all *at that point* in the game. I'm arguing that it wasn't, unless:

a) you have an objective beyond victory

-or-

b) you're a rookie and don't know any better

J-


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

E.H. Munro said:


> True, OK, so don't they drink Mike's Hard Lemonade? :bsmile:


Cristal only for the front row and loge - the pabst and zima is for us normal people who can only afford the nosebleeds - no way you could reach the court from there without some kind of t-shirt launcher or such like


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

e-monk said:


> sure but only if we can agree that Wallace getting pissed off and starting an altercation over a physical play because the game was already decided and he was losing is pretty much exactly like Odom reacting to a physical play under the same circumstances in exactly the same way


I'm good with that. Odom and Wallace were both out of line.




johnnyb said:


> Always amusing when a completely biased post indicts someone else for bias.
> 
> How hard Blake "stepped in", or pushed, isn't at issue...the question is, was a push in the back necessary at all at that point in the game.



It wasn't "necessary" in order to secure the win, but Odom, or anyone else really, has absolutely no grounds to object to a play that was 100% in the flow of the game, without intent or potential to injure, and did not result in a player running the score up. If Odom feels that effort should not be given once the outcome has been decided then that's his choice, but he has no reason to expect that everyone else follows suit. 

Additionally, it wasn't a push in the back, it was regular rebounding. What Andre Miller did was a push in the back, what Blake did happens between two or three pairs of players every time a shot goes up in a basketball game.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

johnnyb said:


> Always amusing when a completely biased post indicts someone else for bias.
> 
> How hard Blake "stepped in", or pushed, isn't at issue...the question is, was a push in the back necessary at all *at that point* in the game. I'm arguing that it wasn't, unless:


You _do_ understand that Odom was lying, right? That there was no "shove in the back"? If the rebound wasn't important, why was Odom trying for it? And why did he get angry when Griffin denied him the board? If you're claiming that Griffin shouldn't be interfering with another player's stat padding, then make the argument honestly.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

johnnyb said:


> You missed my point...no big. I personally don't feel that boxing out was important at that point in the game. But, not boxing when it counted...that is different.


Was the game in progress? Therefore it was important.


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## johnnyb (Nov 20, 2010)

Bogg said:


> It wasn't "necessary" in order to secure the win, but Odom, or anyone else really, has absolutely no grounds to object to a play that was 100% in the flow of the game, without intent or potential to injure, and did not result in a player running the score up. If Odom feels that effort should not be given once the outcome has been decided then that's his choice, but he has no reason to expect that everyone else follows suit.
> 
> Additionally, it wasn't a push in the back, it was regular rebounding. What Andre Miller did was a push in the back, what Blake did happens between two or three pairs of players every time a shot goes up in a basketball game.


Some very reasonable sounding stuff in there...

So, in your opinion, running up the score is abhorrent, but battling for a meaningless rebound is just part of the flow of the game? Why draw the line there? I can just as easily argue that a player shows his 'motor' by streaking out for a layup in a decided game. After all, why didn't the opposition stop him? Just because they don't feel effort is required in the last 5 seconds of a 9 point game? That should have no bearing on him, right?

It's just as arbitrary.

And the angle of the play I saw seems to clearly show Odom getting pushed almost to the stanchion. I really don't see what other part of Odom Griffin could have been in contact with, other than his back.

J-


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

johnnyb said:


> And the angle of the play I saw seems to clearly show Odom getting pushed almost to the stanchion. I really don't see what other part of Odom Griffin could have been in contact with, other than his back.
> 
> J-


If by "almost to the stanchion" you mean "Lamar was within six feet of the stanchion!!!!" then yes, while jostling for position Odom was "almost to the stanchion" before he _threw_ Griffin at the stanchion. And because they were so far away, Griffin didn't actually reach it.


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## johnnyb (Nov 20, 2010)

E.H. Munro said:


> You _do_ understand that Odom was lying, right? That there was no "shove in the back"? If the rebound wasn't important, why was Odom trying for it? And why did he get angry when Griffin denied him the board? If you're claiming that Griffin shouldn't be interfering with another player's stat padding, then make the argument honestly.


Seems to be a lot of suspicion in this post. First Odom is lying, then I am being dishonest? And what evidence do you offer? None. If you choose to argue a point, make it. Personal attacks are for the weak minded or immature.

I watched the play. It looks pretty clear that Griffin pushed on LO's back. As has been evididenced earlier in this post, Griffin has pushed in the back before. Is it so hard to believe your eyes, and the propensity he has already shown? It ain't dirty. It's just unnecessary. 

And padding stats?? There is bias, I am biased against the Celtics, but I would never accuse any champion Celtic of focusing on stats. Winning players, championship players, couldn't give a rat's ass about numbers...particulary in a losing effort.

J-


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## johnnyb (Nov 20, 2010)

Hyperion said:


> Was the game in progress? Therefore it was important.


Kinda simplistic point of view, but still a reasonable point.

The game was in progress, and by that reasoning a coach should never clear his bench and sit his starters in a game they can't possibly win...I mean, the game is in progress, right?

J-


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## johnnyb (Nov 20, 2010)

E.H. Munro said:


> If by "almost to the stanchion" you mean "Lamar was within six feet of the stanchion!!!!" then yes, while jostling for position Odom was "almost to the stanchion" before he _threw_ Griffin at the stanchion. And because they were so far away, Griffin didn't actually reach it.


OK, I'll concede that Lamar made last contact, if you can agree that the initial "jostle" you describe is Griffin shoving LO in the back. Whatevs man, like the man said, if it happened during a contested game, no big.

J-


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

johnnyb said:


> Seems to be a lot of suspicion in this post. First Odom is lying, then I am being dishonest? And what evidence do you offer? None. If you choose to argue a point, make it. Personal attacks are for the weak minded or immature.
> 
> I watched the play. It looks pretty clear that Griffin pushed on LO's back. As has been evididenced earlier in this post, Griffin has pushed in the back before. Is it so hard to believe your eyes, and the propensity he has already shown? It ain't dirty. It's just unnecessary.
> 
> ...


You're not fooling us, someone posted the video on page 1 of the thread. The camera by the stanchion shows that Odom was nowhere near it. He was so far away, in fact, that when he attempted to throw Griffin into the stanchion Griffin didn't hit it. They were too far away. If Odom was "right at the stanchion" he would have successfully been able to throw Griffin into it when he did that spin throw thing. And, when you watch the close up, it's inarguable that there's no "push in the back". Here it is...






And, yes, if you're claiming that the rebound was unimportant, then Odom shouldn't have been trying for it, and shouldn't have been so upset at not getting it that he tossed Griffin.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

johnnyb said:


> OK, I'll concede that Lamar made last contact, if you can agree that the initial "jostle" you describe is Griffin shoving LO in the back.


Given that Griffin's arm was locked with Odom's it would have been physically impossible for him to reach behind his back with his left hand and shove Odom with any force (besides which in the video we can clearly see that Griffin's left hand is nowhere near Odom's back). Put another way, Odom was upset that Griffin was still jostling for position and he therefore lost a free rebound to add to his box score. The temper tantrum was entirely his fault. 

It's getting to be fun though watching the worst of the Heat fans and the worst of the Laker fans join forces. :bsmile:


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

johnnyb said:


> Kinda simplistic point of view, but still a reasonable point.
> 
> The game was in progress, and by that reasoning a coach should never clear his bench and sit his starters in a game they can't possibly win...I mean, the game is in progress, right?
> 
> J-


I agree. I dislike that tactic, but the players in the game are getting a chance to earn future minutes. I would expect them to run an offense, play solid defense for whatever time they were in the game.


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

johnnyb said:


> So, in your opinion, running up the score is abhorrent, but battling for a meaningless rebound is just part of the flow of the game? Why draw the line there? I can just as easily argue that a player shows his 'motor' by streaking out for a layup in a decided game. After all, why didn't the opposition stop him? Just because they don't feel effort is required in the last 5 seconds of a 9 point game? That should have no bearing on him, right?


No, but I could understand a player being upset at an opponent for running up the score in an effort to show them up. However, when you consider that the Lakers were continuing to foul Clippers players as soon as they touched the ball to force them to line and shoot three pointers(the plays leading up to Foye being on the line were Foye being on the line, an Artest three, a Kobe three, and a Gasol foul on Foye as soon as he rebounded the ball) and that immediately following the dust-up/ejections Shannon Brown went in for a lay-up, then yes, it was _completely_ necessary for Blake to secure a potential loose ball in order for time to run out with the score the way it was. Your argument that Blake should have just let the Lakers get a rebound unopposed so they could get up one more shot has absolutely no merit. 





johnnyb said:


> It's just as arbitrary.


It's not arbitrary at all. Bynum established position, Fisher came in to seal off Foye, and Shannon Brown followed Blake to secure a long rebound. The only person who had given up on the game was Odom. The fact that the Lakers continued to shoot negates any argument that the game had been conceded.




johnnyb said:


> And the angle of the play I saw seems to clearly show Odom getting pushed almost to the stanchion. I really don't see what other part of Odom Griffin could have been in contact with, other than his back.


Well, you're falling somewhere between wrong and lying here, because not only is the entirety of the back of Odom's jersey visible in the video (their arms were locked and they were hip to hip), but Odom doesn't even go out of bounds until he plants a foot to toss Blake into the stanchion. So, watch it again if you have to, but afterwards let me know if you were wrong or lying, because it's one of those two.


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## johnnyb (Nov 20, 2010)

E.H. Munro said:


> You're...blah blah blah... :bsmile:


Continuing to present rational arguments to someone like you is obvioulsy a waste of time. Guess we'll just agree to disagree on the appropriatness of Griffin's action. 

Odom's reaction was clearly out of line, I never said it wasn't.

Have a nice day.

J-


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Why are you arguing this? These guys are just ticked a rookie is getting all this attention. They dislike the fact that he's always on sports center and then to make it worse, he's one heck of a competitor. Odom was just pissed the guy was still going hard at it even when the game was over. Unfortunately for Mr. Kardashian there's nothing wrong with that.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

johnnyb said:


> Continuing to present rational arguments to someone like you is obvioulsy a waste of time.
> 
> J-


Could you please show us, in the video, where Blake Griffin "shoves Lamar Odom in the back"? The video's been posted multiple times now, and you continue to ignore it and continue to repeat your assertion.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

E.H. Munro said:


> Artest needed time off to launch his rap career.


It's beyond me why people have such a difficult time seeing the bigger picture here.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

The big picture for me is some angst between these two teams...I mean, let's face it, the Lakers haven't had a true hated rivalry since Cow-Town rose up 10 years ago...that was so refreshing, both teams hated each other.

And you can't really say L.A. - Boston is what it used to be in the '80s. Not even close.

So a good inter-city rivalry is just what this town needs. Keep the blood boiling.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

The clips should trade for his hero


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## johnnyb (Nov 20, 2010)

Bogg said:


> No, but I could understand a player being upset at an opponent for running up the score in an effort to show them up. However, when you consider that the Lakers were continuing to foul Clippers players as soon as they touched the ball to force them to line and shoot three pointers(the plays leading up to Foye being on the line were Foye being on the line, an Artest three, a Kobe three, and a Gasol foul on Foye as soon as he rebounded the ball) and that immediately following the dust-up/ejections Shannon Brown went in for a lay-up, then yes, it was _completely_ necessary for Blake to secure a potential loose ball in order for time to run out with the score the way it was. Your argument that Blake should have just let the Lakers get a rebound unopposed so they could *get up one more shot has absolutely no merit.*


In a three possession game, what difference can one shot possibly make? Margin of victory?? 







> It's not arbitrary at all. Bynum established position, Fisher came in to seal off Foye, and Shannon Brown followed Blake to secure a long rebound. The only person who had given up on the game was Odom. The fact that the Lakers continued to shoot negates any argument that the game had been conceded.


What is arbitrary is your belief that running up the score is _not_ OK while this action _was_ OK. By what criteria do you arrive at this conclusion? That the Lakers were fouling up to that point? That they kept shooting?

In the immortal words of the greatest Laker, at some point "The game is in the refrigerator..." This point often occurs before the final whistle.






> Well, you're falling somewhere between wrong and lying here, because not only is the entirety of the back of Odom's jersey visible in the video (their arms were locked and they were hip to hip), but Odom doesn't even go out of bounds until he plants a foot to toss Blake into the stanchion. So, watch it again if you have to, but afterwards let me know if you were wrong or lying, because it's one of those two.


Odom's left leg, hip and shoulder are all initially in front of Griffin. That, to me, means Odom is in front. Griffin then drives Odom all the way under the basket and out of bounds. Did he, at some point, draw even with Odom? Doesn't matter to me, the initial contact occured when Griffin was behind Odom. It is a small point as to whether he was "almost to the stanchion", he was certainly closer to the stanchion than he was to his original rebounding spot.

J-

P.S. note: I do not think Griffin is a dirty player, and I do not condone Odom's response.


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## johnnyb (Nov 20, 2010)

E.H. Munro said:


> Could you please show us, in the video, where Blake Griffin "shoves Lamar Odom in the back"? The video's been posted multiple times now, and you continue to ignore it and continue to repeat your assertion.


Sure man, pause it at 0.01-0.02 seconds. 

J-


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

johnnyb said:


> Sure man, pause it at 0.01-0.02 seconds.
> 
> J-


In other words, you didn't watch the video and don't want to watch the video because the closeup of the play shows that Griffin doesn't actually touch Odom's back? Is that about the gist of it?

OK, let's look at the photos. From half way across the arena (your preferred angle)

One second









Two seconds









Could you point out the shove in the back? Let's take a closer look, shall we?

52 seconds









53 seconds









54 seconds









55 seconds


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

johnnyb said:


> In a three possession game, what difference can one shot possibly make? Margin of victory??


Makes enough of a difference that the Lakers continued to pursue it pretty doggedly, Odom excepted. 




johnnyb said:


> What is arbitrary is your belief that running up the score is _not_ OK while this action _was_ OK. By what criteria do you arrive at this conclusion? That the Lakers were fouling up to that point? That they kept shooting?
> 
> In the immortal words of the greatest Laker, at some point "The game is in the refrigerator..." This point often occurs before the final whistle.


I did not say that it was or was not acceptable to run a score up, but rather that I would understand if a player got mad because he felt the opponent was running up the score to embarrass him. However, Blake's action was unequivocally acceptable because not only is it an athletic competition and he was competing within the established rules and norms, but primarily because his opponent was continuing to compete as well(again, Odom excepted). He has absolutely no obligation to allow the Lakers sympathy baskets to make the final score closer, but rather as a highly paid professional he has an obligation to do just the opposite. 






johnnyb said:


> Odom's left leg, hip and shoulder are all initially in front of Griffin. That, to me, means Odom is in front. Griffin then drives Odom all the way under the basket and out of bounds.



This is factually wrong. Odom was not out of bounds until he stepped out himself to throw Griffin into the stanchion, Blake drove him under the basket only to the point where he had proper rebounding position. This is 100% a legitimate action in the game of basketball, especially when your opponent is continuing to compete. 



johnnyb said:


> Sure man, pause it at 0.01-0.02 seconds.


Again, demonstrably incorrect. Pause the video at 1:10/3:29. This is immediately after the ball leaves Gordon's hand and Odom and Griffin initiate contact. Blake's right hand is plainly visible on the "LAKERS" lettering of Odom's jersey, immediately to the left of the "L" and covering the "AK". Blake's left hand is on Odom's shoulder. As I stated, their arms were locked and they were hip to hip. Once again, is this simply a case of you being wrong or are you actively lying?


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

johnnyb said:


> In a three possession game, what difference can one shot possibly make? Margin of victory??


Nothing. Everything. Champions play every possession, losers walk to the locker room with 20 seconds to go. 



> What is arbitrary is your belief that running up the score is _not_ OK while this action _was_ OK. By what criteria do you arrive at this conclusion? That the Lakers were fouling up to that point? That they kept shooting?


 you play until your coach takes you out or the game is over. What other interpretation is there? 

Personally, if the lead increases it's because the other team sucked it up. I have no problem with watching a team get blown out by 50 or 60 points. I think you should humiliate a team that leaves its starters in and plays. If they ask for mercy by putting the subs into the game, the opposing coach should accept that and play the clock. 



> In the immortal words of the greatest Laker, at some point "The game is in the refrigerator..." This point often occurs before the final whistle.


And sometimes you get served cold food for missing dinner?








> Odom's left leg, hip and shoulder are all initially in front of Griffin. That, to me, means Odom is in front. Griffin then drives Odom all the way under the basket and out of bounds. Did he, at some point, draw even with Odom? Doesn't matter to me, the initial contact occured when Griffin was behind Odom. It is a small point as to whether he was "almost to the stanchion", he was certainly closer to the stanchion than he was to his original rebounding spot.
> 
> J-
> 
> P.S. note: I do not think Griffin is a dirty player, and I do not condone Odom's response.


That's what happens when you don't box out. You get pushed under the hoop, which is where Odom was pushed.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

So, feeling the need to bully around a new poster with a whopping 34 posts under his belt are we EH?

I guess you must be more upset than I thought from that other thread.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Ron said:


> The big picture for me is some angst between these two teams...I mean, let's face it, the Lakers haven't had a true hated rivalry since Cow-Town rose up 10 years ago...that was so refreshing, both teams hated each other.
> 
> And you can't really say L.A. - Boston is what it used to be in the '80s. Not even close.
> 
> So a good inter-city rivalry is just what this town needs. Keep the blood boiling.


It doesn't really matter, most the fans miss the first quarter and skip the 4th to avoid traffic.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

R-Star said:


> So, feeling the need to bully around a new poster with a whopping 34 posts under his belt are we EH?
> 
> I guess you must be more upset than I thought from that other thread.


What in the name of Grabthar's Hammer are you babbling about, Basel-Star?


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## johnnyb (Nov 20, 2010)

E.H. Munro said:


> In other words, you didn't watch the video and don't want to watch the video because the closeup of the play shows that Griffin doesn't actually touch Odom's back? Is that about the gist of it?
> 
> OK, let's look at the photos. From half way across the arena (your preferred angle)
> 
> ...


You're funny.

Those first two screen caps are not at the .01 or .02 of the video you imbedded. At least, not as my computer shows it. And this angle (from above the crowd) is the only one that shows their backs. The closer one is from the front. Maybe later I'll cap the pics I am referring to...or maybe I won't. Kinda getting bored with you.

J-


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

You can see the time stamps right on the images. I picked out the points you wanted. Then I let the video get to the close-up of the play and posted the first four seconds. I can see why "you're getting bored", with no evidence to support your claims of "a shove in the back".


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

I'm gloating because I have declared myself the winner of the other thread.

It's what I do. Gloat that is. Not win, although I do that from time to time as well.


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## johnnyb (Nov 20, 2010)

Hyperion said:


> Nothing. Everything. Champions play every possession, losers walk to the locker room with 20 seconds to go.


Odom is a multiple champion, but by your own description gave up early...a paradox wrapped in a conundrum? 



> you play until your coach takes you out or the game is over. What other interpretation is there?


Play competitively until victory is beyond doubt. 



> Personally, if the lead increases it's because the other team sucked it up. I have no problem with watching a team get blown out by 50 or 60 points. I think you should humiliate a team that leaves its starters in and plays. If they ask for mercy by putting the subs into the game, the opposing coach should accept that and play the clock.


So, you'd look to huniliate your opponent...that's cool I guess. 



> And sometimes you get served cold food for missing dinner?


Harldy comparable as I can see in this video a 6 point game with ~42 seconds to go...





> That's what happens when you don't box out. You get pushed under the hoop, which is where Odom was pushed.


True

J-


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

Can we change the title of this thread yet?


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

E.H. Munro said:


> What in the name of Grabthar's Hammer are you babbling about, Basel-Star?


Galaxy Quest? best movie ever (or at least pretty damn under rated) - just thinking about Tony Shalhoub standing there and shaking himself and saying 'that was a hell of a thing' just makes me smile


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

oh and btw johnnyb Odom said later it wasnt a dirty play and Kobe called Lamar on not playing hard all the way thru so could we get back to Hyperion and R-Star's stories of woe and gas prices please? (wait was that this thread or...?)


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

e-monk said:


> Galaxy Quest? best movie ever (or at least pretty damn under rated) - just thinking about Tony Shalhoub standing there and shaking himself and saying 'that was a hell of a thing' just makes me smile


That was the greatest Star Trek film ever made. :bsmile:

I crack up every time I hear Sigourney Weaver yell "This episode was badly written!!!"


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## johnnyb (Nov 20, 2010)

E.H. Munro said:


> You can see the time stamps right on the images. I picked out the points you wanted. Then I let the video get to the close-up of the play and posted the first four seconds. I can see why "you're getting bored", with no evidence to support your claims of "a shove in the back".


Well, here is the push that I see:



































Happens pretty fast in the video...anyways, this is tangential to the real point. Game was decided. Victory was secured. This was unnecessary.

J-


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

So you're claiming that the part where _Odom_ backs into Griffin is "Griffin's dirty play"? I mean, really? You clearly see that when you use the close shot rather than the half-way across the arena shot. (Though you can even see it from half way across the arena.) I mean even the photos you're clipping shows that Griffin's hands are nowhere near Odom's back.


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## johnnyb (Nov 20, 2010)

E.H. Munro said:


> So you're claiming that the part where _Odom_ backs into Griffin is "Griffin's dirty play"? I mean, really? You clearly see that when you use the close shot rather than the half-way across the arena shot. (Though you can even see it from half way across the arena.) I mean even the photos you're clipping shows that Griffin's hands are nowhere near Odom's back.


HAHAH...You're ... one of the funniest guys I ever seen post on a bball forum!

I'm so glad I came here.

Here's something you may not know: A person can push another person with parts of their body _other than their hands_. I can put my forearm in the small of your back and drive you forward...I can even use my shoulder. Fact is, pushing is about getting leverage and driving with the legs, which any highschool football player can tell you.

The pics show that LO's left leg, hip and shoulder start out in front of Griffin. It wasn't a dirty play, it was just...I dunno, kinda over-zealous...you know, like a rookie should be.

J-


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

johnnyb said:


> Here's something you may not know: A person can push another person with parts of their body _other than their hands_.


In basketball we call that "jostling for position". Odom backed into Griffin to move him out of the play, Griffin fought for position as he was supposed to. If the play didn't matter, Odom shouldn't have initiated the contact.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Christ jesus not even odom is talking about this anymore and he needs to find something to do otherwise he has to go to bed with Princess Fiona


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

It should be noted that Kobe agreed with Griffin, not Odom. Pretty sure that's case closed.


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

Artest and Griffin's technical's and ejection's have been rescinded by the NBA. 



> LOS ANGELES -- The technical foul and ensuing late-game ejection assessed to both Lakers forward Ron Artest and Clippers forward Blake Griffin in Sunday's 99-92 win by the Clippers were rescinded by the NBA on Monday, according to league spokesman Tim Frank.
> 
> "I didn't think I did anything wrong. I would never think I did anything wrong [in that situation]," Griffin said after the Clippers beat the Indiana Pacers on Monday. "I wasn't just trying to hurt anybody. I didn't push off, I just stepped in strong. I didn't run up anybody's back. So yeah, it's good to know that I wasn't fined for that and to know that all that's rescinded."
> 
> ...


http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/news/story?id=6031620


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

'that was a good ejection' you've heard it from an expert on the subject now


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Instead of arguing about how Blake could be in 3 events at the allstar game, you are worrying about a non-issue. Come on guys.


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## johnnyb (Nov 20, 2010)

HB said:


> Instead of arguing about how Blake could be in 3 events at the allstar game, you are worrying about a non-issue. Come on guys.


Instead of starting a thread about how Blake could be in 3 events at the Allstar Game, you've chosen to respond here...

Just kidding, bro. Seriously, this was a minor talking point at best, but it did provide me with an enjoyable diversion for a bit...That's all I really want from a message board.

J-


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

This is because Blake Griffin is black.

This thread wouldn't be made if his name was Kevin Love.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> This is because Blake Griffin is black.
> 
> This thread wouldn't be made if his name was Kevin Love.


Or Steve Nash.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Hyperion said:


> Or Steve Nash.


Or Kris Humphries or Kevin Martin.

Or even Deron Williams.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

No, Deron and Martin are black like Kidd and Griffin. He'd get the same treatment, maybe worse since he plays in Utah.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Hyperion said:


> No, Deron and Martin are black like Kidd and Griffin. He'd get the same treatment, maybe worse since he plays in Utah.


My posts are sarcastic.


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## e-monk (Sep 10, 2010)

Tragedy said:


> This is because Blake Griffin is black.
> 
> This thread wouldn't be made if his name was Kevin Love.


exactly, it's the same thing for Bill Laimbeer, if he had been white no one would ever have called him a dirty player


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

e-monk said:


> exactly, it's the same thing for Bill Laimbeer, if he had been white no one would ever have called him a dirty player


You know, I used to say the same exact thing on here, but no one listened to me.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Tragedy said:


> My posts are sarcastic.


so are mine.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Tragedy said:


> You know, I used to say the same exact thing on here, but no one listened to me.


That's because you're a white supremacist.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

Nobody white or black in the league can do what he can do.

I think we have a new canidate to take Ko me's place on the most discussed list.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Tom said:


> Nobody white or black in the league can do what he can do.
> 
> I think we have a new canidate to take Ko me's place on the most discussed list.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

He doesn't count...He plays for himself not the NBA


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

HB said:


>


Oh, I get it. It's a watch on Lebron James' watch!


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Better yet, WATCH him!


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

ElBron..Catch it


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