# Bryant vs. Carter vs. Mcgrady?



## vcfan4life (Feb 6, 2005)

Who would you say is the best shooting guard right now among the 3?

I would say Vince, Tracy, Kobe in order!


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## sherwin (Mar 21, 2005)

Tmac > Bryant > Carter

But Tmac isnt a SG.


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

Right now?

Vince is playing lights out basketball. He actually seems more consistent than Tmac, and more well rounded right now as well.

Then its Tmac, who I feel is supremely talented, he just needs to be a little more aggressive IMO.

Kobe. He has to suffer a couple seasons of losing to humble him. I used to be a Kobe hater, during the three-peat and Jordan comparisons, but I would love to see him succeed now.


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## sherwin (Mar 21, 2005)

Put me in the 2 on a mediocre team so J.Kidd feeds me the ball all the time and I will score 15ppg.


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## Magyarn (Mar 27, 2005)

1. TMac
2. Vince 
3. Kobe


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## MVPlaya (Oct 12, 2003)

Magyarn said:


> 1. TMac
> 2. Vince
> 3. Kobe


 Since when is Vince beter than Kobe? 

SMH at some people ridin carter's...


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

MVPlaya said:


> Since when is Vince beter than Kobe?
> 
> SMH at some people ridin carter's...


He's been the better player since becoming a net.

Can't really argue with 27.5/6/5, 46% FG... their team has been one of the hottest teams since the all star break...


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## Charlotte_______ (May 18, 2003)

T-Mac
Bryant
Carter


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

Charlotte_______ said:


> T-Mac
> Bryant
> Carter


That probably should be the consensus. It'll take more than 1/2 a season for Vince to prove himself to be at the same level as Kobe and T-Mac.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

ehh
its all too close to tell
to me
its 
1.tmac
2.vince(when healthy)
3.Kobe
but...they are exchangable to be honest

t-mac is my fav player out of hte 3 and i like vince too
but i hate kobe
so.... its all opinions
no point to argue about it actually if you truly understand basketball
you can see its too close to tell


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

I'd also like to see McGrady and Bryant play with Jason Kidd first. A great play-making point guard like Kidd creates more and better scoring opportunities.

But as far as how I'd rank their abilities, I'd go with:

Tracy McGrady
Kobe Bryant
Vince Carter

McGrady and Bryant virtually tied and Carter a significant, but not huge, drop-off from those two.


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

I've always liked Vince and T-Mac more than Kobe, even though Kobe is amazing. I'll take the first 2. They're both on my all favorite players team, which is AI, Vince, TMac, KG and Jermaine/Duncan...the last position is not set simply because I love Duncan and JO equally.


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## tempe85 (Jan 7, 2005)

There should be a specific board just for Homerism threads like these. If the person is going to make a claim like Vince Carter is better than TMac and Kobe and his name or avatar has anything to do with Vince Carter it should be moved to the Homerism board (same thing would go with any other player). Seeing how this guys name is "vcfan4life" I think that would qualify.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

1. T-mac
1. Kobe



3. Vince.....2 1/2 years injuries and half-hearted effort doesn't get erased by 3 months of ballin


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

VC also has a bit of the "atlanta hawks" and "charlotte bobcat" effect. if you don't understand just take a look at tyronne lue's stats with the hawks. he is one of two legit players on the nets, so his stats are going to be a little inflated.

he's good, but he's not top 2 sg just yet, that's still kobe and t-mac the last time i checked.


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## EuroScout (Jun 4, 2003)

if you are talking about the whole season:
1- T-mac
2- Kobe
3- Vince

if you are talking about their overall career:

1- Kobe
2- T-mac
3- Vince

if you are talking after the all star breack

1- Vince
2- T-mac
3- Kobe


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

sherwin said:


> Put me in the 2 on a mediocre team so J.Kidd feeds me the ball all the time and I will score 15ppg.


I doubt it Big time....


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## quick (Feb 13, 2004)

I have it as a tie with Mcgrady and Carter with Kobe last. VC can be just as dangerous as Mcgrady on offense.


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## BBallFan (Jul 13, 2002)

c_dog said:


> VC also has a bit of the "atlanta hawks" and "charlotte bobcat" effect. if you don't understand just take a look at tyronne lue's stats with the hawks. he is one of two legit players on the nets, so his stats are going to be a little inflated.


I'll happily take "inflated stats" when the Nets have gone 28-16 the last 44 games.

So next year, when Jefferson comes back and there's a PF addition you think Carter's stats will drop? Fair enough if you want to argue that (I don't think there will be much of a dropoff, but maybe that's just me), but what will the Nets record improve to?


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## Pejavlade (Jul 10, 2004)

1.Kobe
2.Tmac
3.Vince


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## ljt (May 24, 2003)

tmac
kobe
vince


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

VC is n the absolute most ideal situation he will ever be ni with a superstar pg assisting to him and setting him up... these ar ethe maximum stats VC is capable of...27 to 28 ppg...
not even breaking 5 assists or 6 rebounds....


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## Jordan VS WHO!! (Jun 25, 2004)

sherwin said:


> Put me in the 2 on a mediocre team so J.Kidd feeds me the ball all the time and I will score 15ppg.


Yeah and put me with Yao Ming and Van Gundy, and I'll score 16 ppg.
Put me with shaq and Phil jackson.. i'll have 3 rings.

Vince was a 25-27ppg scorer prior to being injured, and is now averaging over 27 again. Kidd helps bump his FG%, not his PPG.


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## LuckyAC (Aug 12, 2004)

Including the game tonight, in 55 games on the Nets (too many to be a "hot streak"), VC has statistics of 46%, 42%, 82%, 27.4 ppg, 6.0 rpg, 4.6 apg. He has only been getting better lately. 

TMac and Kobe are a better bet for the future and were better in the past, but in his time with the Nets, VC has been better than Kobe (partly due to injuries, partly due to efficiency), and pretty similar to TMac.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

And for those quick to attribute this to Kidd, go look at his stats in 2000, he averaged over 27ppg so its not like he hasnt done this before. So far this season its Vince, AI, T-mac and then Kobe as the best guards


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

1a. McGrady
1b. Kobe

3. Vince


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

1. Vince - Has the most talent of the 3...given less injuries and more ideal situations in his career, I'm sure he'd easily be #1 on most people's lists.
2. Kobe - Was in a very ideal situation before these past few years in the league. Allowed him to show off without being detrimental to his team because they knew they were going to win anyway. He has a lot of talent and knows how to put it to use...he's just a little to selfish and likes drama too much.
3. TMac - Least talented of the three but he's put the talent he has to great use. I'd put him in the Kevin Garnett/Jermaine O'neal type of players before this one though.


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## PetroToZoran (Jul 2, 2003)

c_dog said:


> VC also has a bit of the "atlanta hawks" and "charlotte bobcat" effect. if you don't understand just take a look at tyronne lue's stats with the hawks. he is one of two legit players on the nets, so his stats are going to be a little inflated.
> 
> he's good, but he's not top 2 sg just yet, that's still kobe and t-mac the last time i checked.


Shouldn't Kobe have a lot of that effect? I mean his teammates are pretty terrible. They're worse than the Nets. Kobe's stats are therefore inflated as well?


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## Jordan VS WHO!! (Jun 25, 2004)

tone wone said:


> 1. T-mac
> 1. Kobe
> 
> 
> ...



??? so Vince had an excuse for playing half-hearted (injury), what was Tmac's excuse?


BTW. 
Here's my breakdown.. feel free to comment

OFFENSIVE END
---------------
Pure Shooting (Shoot off screen/ catch and shoot etc)
VINCE>KOBE>TMAC
(Vince has the best mechanics & quick release)

Post-UP's
VINCE>KOBE>TMAC
(Vince gained some strength and has the best post up game now, creative in the post and passes out well. Kobe has a deadly post-up turn around jumper. Tmac has a decent post up / turn-around jump shot)

Pull-UP's
TMAC>>VINCE>KOBE
(not even close, TMAC is the guru of pull up jumpshots, extra few inches help)

Blow-by ability
KOBE>VINCE>TMAC (Vince lost some after injury, Tmac not very aggresive)

Going crazy (in a zone/gettin hot)
TMAC>KOBE=VINCE 
(Tmac is "insane", gets in the zone more often, kobe's faded this yr in this area where as Vince returned to Vinsanity)

Finishing (at the bucket / circus shots / using english / AND1 etc)
KOBE>VINCE>>TMAC
(Kobe has best body control and strength. Vince needs to be stronger, wimpy mentality doesn't help either. Tmac's good but not comparable to VC/KB8)

Ball-Handling
KOBE>TMAC>VINCE
(Kobe's got the best handles)


DEFENSIVE END
---------------
lockdown ability/positional/man2man
KOBE>>VINCE=TMAC 
(Vince and TMAC can turn it up a notch, when they feel like it, but still no match for Kobe, I have seen many games where Kobe shut Tmac and Vince down, when it was needed. Vince/Tmac play defense, good defense, when it's a celeb matchup .. Vince/Tmac, Vince/wade etc)

team defense
KOBE>TMAC>VINCE

rebounds
TMAC>KOBE>VINCE

blocks
VINCE>TMAC>KOBE

steals
KOBE>TMAC>VINCE


PASSING / COURT ABILITY
-------------------------
TMAC>VINCE>KOBE


OVERALL
--------
Kobe's the best overall, considering his defensive abilities. Vince and TMAC are close with TMAC having a slightly better overall game.
KOBE>VINCE=TMAC


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## Jordan VS WHO!! (Jun 25, 2004)

EuroScout said:


> if you are talking about the whole season:
> 1- T-mac
> 2- Kobe
> 3- Vince
> ...


TMAC doesn't necessarily have a better career than Vince. Vince has had more accomplishments and success than TMAC. Kobe and his rings set him apart.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Right now, I would have to say Vince by far over Kobe, and by some over TMac. The amazing thing is that he's doing it within the framework of the offense. He's not just gunning. They run plays for him, and everyone gets involved, often handling the ball on the possession. Its team ball, and the Nets are 19-4 when Vince scores over thirty this year. I think that's the most impressive part of it. I've seen great scorers put up big numbers w/ their team not benefitting, but Vince is making the right plays and playing team first while lighting **** up.

Now for the long term, I can certainly understand why someone would prefer Kobe or TMac over Vince, but for right now Vince is the man, IMO.


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## VinceIsLoco (Apr 12, 2005)

I think thats a great breakdown Jordan vs. Who. 

Kobe and Vince are my two favorite individual players. I've never been too high on McGrady. I don't think he deserves the praise he gets because he has never been on a good team thats winning until now.

Kobe and Vince have had more success. With Kobe obviously having way more than both.


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

VinceIsLoco said:


> I think thats a great breakdown Jordan vs. Who.
> 
> Kobe and Vince are my two favorite individual players. I've never been too high on McGrady. I don't think he deserves the praise he gets because he has never been on a good team thats winning until now.
> 
> Kobe and Vince have had more success. With Kobe obviously having way more than both.


T-mac never has been on a winning team before??? Check back on that dude. 
Vince more success??? This dude has been a nobody for about 2 years now... Suddenly he does good for less than 3 months and he has more success?


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

farhan007 said:


> T-mac never has been on a winning team before??? Check back on that dude.
> Vince more success??? This dude has been a nobody for about 2 years now... Suddenly he does good for less than 3 months and he has more success?


You don't have to have had alot of success, to have had more success than TMac. Have any of his teams ever even won a playoff series? And then last year, 19 wins? You could certainly argue that TMac is a better player than Vince, but his playoff resume isn't anything to brag about.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

PHeNoM Z28 said:


> 1. Vince - Has the most talent of the 3...given less injuries and more ideal situations in his career, I'm sure he'd easily be #1 on most people's lists.
> 2. Kobe - Was in a very ideal situation before these past few years in the league. Allowed him to show off without being detrimental to his team because they knew they were going to win anyway. He has a lot of talent and knows how to put it to use...he's just a little to selfish and likes drama too much.
> 3. TMac - Least talented of the three but he's put the talent he has to great use. I'd put him in the Kevin Garnett/Jermaine O'neal type of players before this one though.


You actually think Vince is more talented than Kobe and Tmac???....and Tmac is the least talented of the group???

...and KG is arguablly the best player in the L(argument had more weight when Twolves were in WCF last year..but still)

but if you want a great breakdown of the three then here......http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2100380#post2100380


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

Jordan VS WHO!! said:


> ??? so Vince had an excuse for playing half-hearted (injury), what was Tmac's excuse?
> 
> 
> BTW.
> ...


t-mac is the best catch and shoot guy out of the three... T-mac is the better post up player over Vince, T_mac finishes better than Vince(please dunks are not all to finishing).

SOmehow t-mac is more unstoppable than Kobe and Vince but at the same time Vince and Kobe have more offensve skills??

Many consider t-mac to be one of the most gifted and talented players ever... His 6; 8" body fram, his quickness... everything....
t-mac is more quick than VC going to the rack. Just because VC has been more agreesive lately doesnt mean VC has more penetrating abilities... 

Remeber Vince for years wouldnt penetrate and at teh same time in Orlando when T-macaveraged 32ppg he was explosing to the rack all day...


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

PHeNoM Z28 said:


> 1. Vince - Has the most talent of the 3...given less injuries and more ideal situations in his career, I'm sure he'd easily be #1 on most people's lists.
> 2. Kobe - Was in a very ideal situation before these past few years in the league. Allowed him to show off without being detrimental to his team because they knew they were going to win anyway. He has a lot of talent and knows how to put it to use...he's just a little to selfish and likes drama too much.
> 3. TMac - Least talented of the three but he's put the talent he has to great use. I'd put him in the Kevin Garnett/Jermaine O'neal type of players before this one though.


wow... thats the first time in my life i heard Vince is more talented than T-mac.... wow.... just because Vince does fancy smanshy dunks doesnt mean he is more talented


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## GOT DA GAME ON LOCK (Apr 15, 2005)

T-Mac = Vince










































Kobe. 




Vince and T-Mac have been playing better ball than the mj wannabee all year. Kobe aint even in the same sentence as them two.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

PHeNoM Z28 said:


> 1. Vince - Has the most talent of the 3...given less injuries and more ideal situations in his career, I'm sure he'd easily be #1 on most people's lists.
> 2. Kobe - Was in a very ideal situation before these past few years in the league. Allowed him to show off without being detrimental to his team because they knew they were going to win anyway. He has a lot of talent and knows how to put it to use...he's just a little to selfish and likes drama too much.
> 3. TMac - Least talented of the three but he's put the talent he has to great use. I'd put him in the Kevin Garnett/Jermaine O'neal type of players before this one though.


What? McGrady is easily the most 'talented' out of the 3. Carter is the best finisher but Kobe and McGrady are superior in every other aspect of the game. Let's not forget Kidd to Vince would be #1 in the "assisted by" category if Carter had been traded to New Jersey at the beginning of the season. That duo is already in 4th and have only played around 50 games with each other.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> What? McGrady is easily the most 'talented' out of the 3. Carter is the best finisher but Kobe and McGrady are superior in every other aspect of the game. Let's not forget Kidd to Vince would be #1 in the "assisted by" category if Carter had been traded to New Jersey at the beginning of the season. That duo is already in 4th and have only played around 50 games with each other.


The Celtics game, is not included yet, he had 10 assists to Carter alone that game... when Carter went off for 24 points in the first.

Even with the miss games, and lack of offensive weapons, they could be the top duo in the league by the end of the year.

-Petey


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> What? McGrady is easily the most 'talented' out of the 3. Carter is the best finisher but Kobe and McGrady are superior in every other aspect of the game. *Let's not forget Kidd to Vince would be #1 in the "assisted by" category if Carter had been traded to New Jersey at the beginning of the season. That duo is already in 4th and have only played around 50 games with each other*.


Great players make each other even greater. How much should that count against Carter? Kobe had Shaq to work off of for years. Its a team game.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Great players make each other even greater. How much should that count against Carter? *Kobe had Shaq to work off of for years. Its a team game*.


But that sure as hell isn't helping his reputation as the premier SG now that Shaq is gone. So to what extent can we disregard catalysts like Shaq and Kidd? Would you say the current Carter is more dangerous than the Kobe of 1 or 2 years ago with Shaq?


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:



> But that sure as hell isn't helping his reputation as the premier SG now that Shaq is gone. So to what extent can we disregard catalysts like Shaq and Kidd? *Would you say the current Carter is more dangerous than the Kobe of 1 or 2 years ago with Shaq*?


Not a large enough sample set to say for sure, yet, IMO. But Carter definitely hasn't proved anything near that yet. There's the same issue w/ Pippen, he was great, but how can we know he was as great as we think he was, since he played his entire prime w/ MJ? It's where the whole evaluating players as individual entities breaks down. Ultimately its a team game and the best players flourish working off of other players. THe better those other players are the better you look. THe worse those other players are, the worse you look.


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## RPGMan (Mar 31, 2005)

EuroScout said:


> if you are talking about the whole season:
> 1- T-mac
> 2- Kobe
> 3- Vince
> ...


perfect way to sum it up.


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## hendrix2430 (Mar 21, 2005)

crazy how 30 games of good balling with Jason Kidd (aka. Santa Claus) makes you look like.

Anyway:

1a- Tmac
1b- Kobe

3- Vince Carter


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## MiamiWade (Jan 23, 2005)

Magyarn said:


> 1. TMac
> 2. Vince
> 3. Kobe


 ^ Thats my selection


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

vcfan4life said:


> Who would you say is the best shooting guard right now among the 3?
> 
> I would say Vince, Tracy, Kobe in order!


Tracy's a small forward. Vince is just as explosive as Kobe, but he's not as good a defender, so Kobe's the best.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

since all-star break:

kobe - 27.1 ppg, 1.19 ppfga, 5.6 rpg, 5.4 apg, 3.5 to/g
tmac - 26.2 ppg, 1.06 ppfga, 6.2 rpg, 5.2 apg, 2.4 to/g
vince - 28.0 ppg, 1.13 ppfga, 6.0 rpg, 4.3 apg, 2.6 to/g


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## Meatwad (Feb 18, 2005)

Jordan VS WHO!! said:


> ??? so Vince had an excuse for playing half-hearted (injury), what was Tmac's excuse?
> 
> 
> BTW.
> ...


kobe's defense? he was exposed years ago when he got lit up for about 100 points on consecutive nights. and he is exposed now as a gambling clown that relied on shaq to protect him and now players are taking turns on him like a prostitute (see: both celtics games). when will people stop overrating this guy's defense? the entire lakers squad plays matador defense, some "team defense" he's involved with.

and he hasn't shut down t-mac "many times". t-mac has scored at will against the lakers and the one time kobe had a good few minutes against him was the 4th quarter of a game last year where kobe was coasting for 3 quarters (notice he can't do that anymore and he's fading in the 2nd half) and had all his energy saved up for a tired t-mac. one time doesn't a pattern make, that's a fluke performance when you consider the body of work.


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## Meatwad (Feb 18, 2005)

Jordan VS WHO!! said:


> Yeah and put me with Yao Ming and Van Gundy, and I'll score 16 ppg.
> Put me with shaq and Phil jackson.. i'll have 3 rings.
> 
> Vince was a 25-27ppg scorer prior to being injured, and is now averaging over 27 again. Kidd helps bump his FG%, not his PPG.


yeah that's funny because jvg's known for his offensive attack. steve francis averaged 16 pppg with yao and jvg, but maybe you're better than steve. tracy mcgrady became the first player to average over 20 ppg on a jvg team. and yao ming? teams come into the games worrying about mcgrady beating them. this isn't shaq situation here where teams are scared out of their minds and throw double and triple teams his way constantly, yao isn't even close, t-mac is the "shaq" on this rockets team. ask your own nets team (you know that game where t-mac put on a defensive clinic on your boy vince in crunch time when the nets needed a shot to tie). after the game they even said that they were throwing doubles and triples at mcgrady because he was their focus and wanted someone else to beat them. yao is a good player right now, but don't think that somehow vince would get less attention from defenses if he was on the rockets.

vince would get eaten alive in jvg's offense.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

In order:

1) Kobe
2) God
3) The Heavens
4) Tmac
5) Carter


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Meatwad said:


> yeah that's funny because jvg's known for his offensive attack. steve francis averaged 16 pppg with yao and jvg, but maybe you're better than steve. tracy mcgrady became the first player to average over 20 ppg on a jvg team. and yao ming? teams come into the games worrying about mcgrady beating them. this isn't shaq situation here where teams are scared out of their minds and throw double and triple teams his way constantly, yao isn't even close, t-mac is the "shaq" on this rockets team. ask your own nets team (you know that game where t-mac put on a defensive clinic on your boy vince in crunch time when the nets needed a shot to tie). after the game they even said that they were throwing doubles and triples at mcgrady because he was their focus and wanted someone else to beat them. yao is a good player right now, but don't think that somehow vince would get less attention from defenses if he was on the rockets.
> 
> vince would get eaten alive in jvg's offense.


Remember me? I will give you one day to use your entire knowledge to talk about T-mac, I can guranatee all thge posters here, with one easy post, just one single post, this guy will be like some kid who worshipped Manu but couldnt reply a thing of mine.

Use your entire repitore, I will show you trying to messaging around is not really that fun.

MARK MY WORDS, ENTIRE REPITORE, YOU WILL SWEAR FOR SURE AFTER READING MY TRUE BASHING ON T-MAC!


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Meatwad said:


> kobe's defense? he was exposed years ago when he got lit up for about 100 points on consecutive nights. and he is exposed now as a gambling clown that relied on shaq to protect him and now players are taking turns on him like a prostitute (see: both celtics games). when will people stop overrating this guy's defense? the entire lakers squad plays matador defense, some "team defense" he's involved with.


100 points on consecutive nights? 

Do you know of any other players who have been overrated year after year, or is your bias strictly Kobe based?



> and he hasn't shut down t-mac "many times". t-mac has scored at will against the lakers and the one time kobe had a good few minutes against him was the 4th quarter of a game last year where kobe was coasting for 3 quarters (notice he can't do that anymore and he's fading in the 2nd half) and had all his energy saved up for a tired t-mac. one time doesn't a pattern make, that's a fluke performance when you consider the body of work.


That's how the game is played. You seem to have high standards for Kobe that no other player has ever or will ever live up to. If you could be reasonable and see that Kobe was playing within the teams concept and doing exactly what LA needed him to, you'd see why his defense was not overrated.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

VC is not a more talented player then T-mac overall, but he's definitely more talented offensively. I've seen VC make shots this season that I know T-mac can't make. This just isn't referring to athletic ability. VC has a wider range of moves in his arsenal from the perimeter. Which is Y he's always been better in the clutch too. T-mac's O is a little more predictable, but he still gets the job done.

Overall, this season:

T-mac
Kobe
VC

Since AS break:

VC
T-mac
Kobe


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

T-mac a better post up player than Vince, am I reading right. T-mac more successful than vince, umm as T-mac even won a playoff series, did his team not win 19 games last year. I can guarantee that if T-mac were on the nets right now, instead of Vince there would be no playoff talk. Besides Kidd, who else is worthy of attention on the nets. And to those thinking that Kidd is the main reason for the jump in Vince's numbers, come down to earth you clowns, Vince has been doing this for a while. The man has the 3rd highest PPG average amongst active players in the league, lead only by Shaq and AI.

2000 25.7ppg 46% 40%3p 79%ft 5.8rpg 3.9apg
2001 27.6ppg 46% 40% 76% 5.5 3.9
2002 24.7ppg 42% 38% 79% 5.2 4.0

This season with nets 27.4 46% 42% 6.00 4.7
Total 24.3 45% 40% 5.3 4.2

Obviously Vince didnt play with Kidd those first 3 years, so maybe those bringing up that arguement constantly might wanna think about the fact that Vince is very good at creating his own shot


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## Meatwad (Feb 18, 2005)

total not each. iverson had like 50 and marbury had like 47 ... kobe was guarding them. and don't give me that smaller players stuff because his over the top defensive rep started after iverson had a horrible game on nbc and kobe was guarding him. so if he can get credit for shutting him down when he's going bad then he certainly gets the blame when the guy goes off. he's been overrated on that end of the floor since 2000 and this is the first year those of us that have been pointing it out [for years] had concrete proof.

and as for the second part, still doesn't change the fact that kobe hasn't stopped him many times. last year when kobe stopped him in the 4th when he was tired you all didn't have a problem bragging about it and now i have high standards for pointing out that kobe in the same situation this year is tiring in the 2nd half because he has to work really hard in the first and it's because his daddy isn't protecting him anymore? t-mac was doing the same thing for 4 years in orlando and you all didn't have a problem pointing out the one quarter in over 20 that kobe finally was able to contain him.


and john, you're a joke, a big one. i don't need to get into some posting contest with you. i respond to what i read ... if i see something i disagree with i respond. you don't have anything new to bring to the table that we haven't already see.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Meatwad said:


> and john, you're a joke, a big one. i don't need to get into some posting contest with you. i respond to what i read ... if i see something i disagree with i respond. you don't have anything new to bring to the table that we haven't already see.


Besides calling me a joke, I really like this poster. Very confident, not afraid of the greatest poster of all time. May I know your actual age?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Meatwad said:


> total not each. iverson had like 50 and marbury had like 47 ... kobe was guarding them. and don't give me that smaller players stuff because his over the top defensive rep started after iverson had a horrible game on nbc and kobe was guarding him. so if he can get credit for shutting him down when he's going bad then he certainly gets the blame when the guy goes off. he's been overrated on that end of the floor since 2000 and this is the first year those of us that have been pointing it out [for years] had concrete proof.


Kobe's primary defensive assignment every year since Ron Harper retired has always been the taller guard. Phil would put Kobe on the more active guard, Iverson or Marbury, in spurts.



> and as for the second part, still doesn't change the fact that kobe hasn't stopped him many times. last year when kobe stopped him in the 4th when he was tired you all didn't have a problem bragging about it


That was his assignment, and he got the job done. 



> and now i have high standards for pointing out that kobe in the same situation this year is tiring in the 2nd half because he has to work really hard in the first and it's because his daddy isn't protecting him anymore? t-mac was doing the same thing for 4 years in orlando and you all didn't have a problem pointing out the one quarter in over 20 that kobe finally was able to contain him.


Tracy's defensive assignment was nearly never Kobe. When LA played Orlando, the small forward was defending Tmac. He's too long, and too active to take most active perimeter player and expect him to defend and provide needed offense. Kobe would play Tracy if Phil allowed him too, which was only in spurts, never an entire game. And I don't remember seeing Tracy defender Kobe much, for the same reasons



> and john, you're a joke, a big one. i don't need to get into some posting contest with you. i respond to what i read ... if i see something i disagree with i respond. you don't have anything new to bring to the table that we haven't already see.


Now that I can agree to. HAHAHA, LOL. :laugh:


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

John said:


> Besides calling me a joke, I really like this poster. Very confident, not afraid of the greatest poster of all time. May I know your actual age?


The greatest poster of all time! :laugh:


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

SPMJ said:


> VC is not a more talented player then T-mac overall, but he's definitely more talented offensively. I've seen VC make shots this season that I know T-mac can't make. This just isn't referring to athletic ability. VC has a wider range of moves in his arsenal from the perimeter. Which is Y he's always been better in the clutch too. T-mac's O is a little more predictable, but he still gets the job done.


I pretty much agree with your assessment. Offensively, VC is just better than Tmac. He's a better shooter, better finisher, better one-on-one player, better post player, and better in the clutch.


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## TRACIELOVESCOMETS (May 14, 2003)

T-Mac
Kobe
Vince


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

crimsonice said:


> I pretty much agree with your assessment. Offensively, VC is just better than Tmac. He's a better shooter, better finisher, better one-on-one player, better post player, and better in the clutch.


how does the better offensive player never average more than the inferior offensive player??? Has VInce ever averaged 30+ pts like Vince???
i dont see how Vince is more talented? He isnt a better shooter, and they finish just as well. And what do you mean by you saw Vince make some clutch shots that T-mac cant??? I thought t-mac can shoot over anyone? 
Did Vince make 4 3pters in a row while being heavily gaurded in less than 35 seconds?


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## Jordan VS WHO!! (Jun 25, 2004)

farhan007 said:


> t-mac is the best catch and shoot guy out of the three... T-mac is the better post up player over Vince, T_mac finishes better than Vince(please dunks are not all to finishing).
> 
> SOmehow t-mac is more unstoppable than Kobe and Vince but at the same time Vince and Kobe have more offensve skills??
> 
> ...



Vince is a better pure shooter than TMAC and better off screens. Check his career FG% ( or 3pt fg%) . TMAC's post up game is not comparable to Kobe or Vince. Watch Vince in the post this season, he's much improved. Kobe has had a good post up game for many seasons now. 

I said tmac's gets into the zone more often, does not mean that he has a better offensive skill set. Tmac, when hot.. has an unstoppable pull up jump shot, and that's all he uses when he's hot. Kobe and Vince might not get that hot as often, but when they do (or even if they don't), they have a variety of ways of getting their shots off. (Donyell Marshall is a player that get in the zone quite a lot, doesn't mean that he's offensively more talanted that Vince. All he can do is shoot the 3 from the corner, and never miss)

Many consider Tmac the most talented? Many who? Many consider Manu Ginobili to be the best player in the world.

Your last point is very valid about Tmac and his 32 ppg season and getting to the rack. No argument.
Vince has been a wussy, but perhaps due to injury and being a mama's boy didn't help either. All i was saying was that KOBE>VINCE>TMAC in the sense that Kobe has the best chance of getting to the line in a one-on-one matchup against a good defender; out of the three.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

im sorry, but this is the first thread i've read where someone actually said Vince was better than either Kobe or Tmac....hell, this is first time I've seen anywhere (mess. boards, news articles, t.v., radio) where Vince was thought to better than Kobe or Tmac...yet alone both!!!

I will admit Vince is a better shooter than both...also has a best catch-and-shoot game of the three (though Kobe might be a better catch-and-create player)...McGrady is also better than Kobe in this department......Vince is slightly better on the block than McGrady..but he's nowhere near Kobe's post up game (the kobester has ever move/counter move known to man)

McGrady and Kobe are better passers and playmakers (I can't deside who's better so its a tie)...by fairly large margin ..they both have better handles than Vince...by a fairly large margin (Vince's handle is down there with Peja's :biggrin: )

Kobe is easily the best off the dribble...then Vince and McGrady a close 3rd (only because he doesn't attack as much he should, otherwise he would ahead of Vince)

Much has been made about Kobe's overrated defense..I don't about that, but he is the best defender of the bunch...then McGrady................way down here is Vince...

so it's basically
1. McGrady
1. Kobe
3. Vince


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

tone wone said:


> McGrady and Kobe are better passers and playmakers (I can't deside who's better so its a tie)...by fairly large margin ..they both have better handles than Vince...by a fairly large margin (Vince's handle is down there with Peja's :biggrin: )


That's just totally wrong. I have no problem w/ someone thinking Kobe or TMac is a better player, but w/ the Nets Vince has been an incredible playmaker and passer, way better than TMac for sure, and I think better than Kobe (and much more willing to create for others than both of them). And to say his handle is w/ Peja's? Have you even watched Vince w/ the Nets?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Jordan VS WHO!! said:


> Vince is a better pure shooter than TMAC and better off screens. Check his career FG% ( or 3pt fg%) . TMAC's post up game is not comparable to Kobe or Vince. Watch Vince in the post this season, he's much improved. Kobe has had a good post up game for many seasons now.
> 
> I said tmac's gets into the zone more often, does not mean that he has a better offensive skill set. Tmac, when hot.. has an unstoppable pull up jump shot, and that's all he uses when he's hot. Kobe and Vince might not get that hot as often, but when they do (or even if they don't), they have a variety of ways of getting their shots off. (Donyell Marshall is a player that get in the zone quite a lot, doesn't mean that he's offensively more talanted that Vince. All he can do is shoot the 3 from the corner, and never miss)
> 
> ...



Nice! :yes:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

And for the dude that said Vince hasnt averaged 30ppg, how did that help T-mac. He still hasnt proven anything yet. Its not how many points you score, but how effective it helps your team. You can score 50pts in the first half and not come up with any when your team needs it the most. Vince has learnt to play the game by using his teammates to beat teams. One of the best to pass out of a double team and find the open man. I'd say the only thing T-mac has over Vince is handles, besides that every other thing is pretty arguable


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> And for the dude that said Vince hasnt averaged 30ppg, how did that help T-mac. He still hasnt proven anything yet. Its not how many points you score, but how effective it helps your team. You can score 50pts in the first half and not come up with any when your team needs it the most. Vince has learnt to play the game by using his teammates to beat teams. One of the best to pass out of a double team and find the open man. I'd say the only thing T-mac has over Vince is handles, besides that every other thing is pretty arguable


pretty arguable with you... go ahead and dont believe 99.9% of the people. How many times have you heard Vince being the most talneted player? I never heard it once. But i heard Mcgraday being the most talented many times....

Its only arguable to you.... Before Mcgrady ever came to the Rockets, where i didnt care really who he is, i still believed Mcgrady was the more athletic freak. 6'8" and better handles than Vince? Thats alot to say there. When VInce or Kobe are in a zone they always take jumpshots... thats what it means when you are on fire.... The rest of the time mcgrady when not hot, penetrates...

o btw, how does the superior penetrater and finisher only have TWO more dunks than Mcgrady? even with a superstar pg lobbing ally-hoops all day, Vince only has TWO more dunks the whole season.....I really dont know what game you watch....


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## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> That's just totally wrong. I have no problem w/ someone thinking Kobe or TMac is a better player, but w/ the Nets Vince has been an incredible playmaker and passer, way better than TMac for sure, and I think better than Kobe (and much more willing to create for others than both of them). And to say his handle is w/ Peja's? Have you even watched Vince w/ the Nets?


Actually, this is totally wrong. There is no way Vince is "way better" than T-Mac in the passing/playmaking department. I believe Van Gundy made a comment to the effect that T-Mac is the best combo of looking for his own shot while creating for others he's seen. I hate when people make it seem like T-Mac is just a gunner and nothing more. He's the best passer and creator out of the three IMO, and it's not that close.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

VC might be the only player in the world whose "wayyyyy" better then somebody else but never seems to put up better statistical numbers. I guess he does the "little things" 

VC is NOT better then either Kobe or T-mac. There's something called playing at a high level for an ENTIRE season. Something VC hasn't done in 4 years. The other two have done so for at least 5 straight years now. And oh yeah, they also are much better statistically.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

i remember threads on boards back in '00 and '01 comparing vc to shaq. he's been knocked down many notches over the last few years. but he was viewed differently at his peak.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Captain Obvious said:


> Actually, this is totally wrong. There is no way Vince is "way better" than T-Mac in the passing/playmaking department. I believe Van Gundy made a comment to the effect that T-Mac is the best combo of looking for his own shot while creating for others he's seen. I hate when people make it seem like T-Mac is just a gunner and nothing more. He's the best passer and creator out of the three IMO, and it's not that close.


Too bad his 'creations' are usually for himself. THe way Vince is playing right now, there is no comparison in my mind. Longterm? That's a separate question, but right now, I've seen TMac, and I've seen Vince, and Vince is a way better and more willing creator.


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## showstopper496 (Nov 28, 2003)

c_dog said:


> VC also has a bit of the "atlanta hawks" and "charlotte bobcat" effect. if you don't understand just take a look at tyronne lue's stats with the hawks. he is one of two legit players on the nets, so his stats are going to be a little inflated.
> 
> he's good, but he's not top 2 sg just yet, that's still kobe and t-mac the last time i checked.


ROFL its ironic that Kobe's Team SUCKS this year and he couldnt even lead his team to the playoffs how that for inflation

Tmac last year.... Should i even need to explain


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Too bad his 'creations' are usually for himself. THe way Vince is playing right now, there is no comparison in my mind. Longterm? That's a separate question, but right now, I've seen TMac, and I've seen Vince, and Vince is a way better and more willing creator.


 I completely disagree. I think T-Mac is too passive when he penetrates into the lane, as do many other people. He creates plenty of wide open shots for his teammates, sometimes I wish he'd just go up strong and get to the line instead. 

T-Mac > Kobe > Vince


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## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Too bad his 'creations' are usually for himself. THe way Vince is playing right now, there is no comparison in my mind. Longterm? That's a separate question, but right now, I've seen TMac, and I've seen Vince, and Vince is a way better and more willing creator.


Barry, Wesley, Padgett, Sura, and James are all shooting way better than they have for most of their careers. Why is that? Perhaps it's because McGrady gets them countless open shots. Unfortunately there are no numbers to prove my point (T-Mac gets more assists though), but it's my strong opinion that McGrady is the superior (and more willing) creator and passer.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

5 pages and nobodys brought up defense yet? kobe and tmac are way better defenders then vince. vince just cant guard anything man to man. in terms of offensive output, their all equal to me. they all get it done, and they all have their own unique style of doin it


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## snowmt (Jan 28, 2003)

PennyHardaway said:


> in terms of offensive output, their all equal to me. they all get it done, and they all have their own unique style of doin it



Agree. As long as the end results (pts, FG%, etc.) are the same,
who cares that you have 1 way or 25 ways to put the ball in? 
Kobe has by far the most offensive moves, but his production and 
efficiency are about the same as the other two. 

As to defense, Kobe is the better man-to-man defender, Tmac
is the better help defender, and Vince is mediocre at best.

Tmac and Kobe both are good passers but Kobe turns the ball over
way too much. Even he's the best ball-handler among the three, I 
wouldnt want him to run the offense all the time. Vince is also a 
good passer but his ball-handling is not quite as good as Kobe/Tmac.

Kobe also has the tendency of overdribbling which kills ball movement.
Tmac and Vince are more willing to play off the ball.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Too bad his 'creations' are usually for himself. THe way Vince is playing right now, there is no comparison in my mind. Longterm? That's a separate question, but right now, I've seen TMac, and I've seen Vince, and Vince is a way better and more willing creator.


It's interesting...you're one of the very few people who claims this about McGrady. Most of McGrady's detractors argue precisely the opposite: He's too passive about looking for his own shot and sets up teammates *too* much.

Personally, as a McGrady fan, I think he's a smart player...if he's getting favourable defense (like single teams or weak double-teams), he looks for his shot and pretty much kills the opposition. If the opposing defense is collapsing on him and leaving his teammates wide open, he drives and kicks.

I think he's the best and most willing passer of the three. Carter may now be a willing passer, but I'd place his passing skills behind that of McGrady and Bryant. Both Bryant and McGrady have taken on the mantle, for at least short periods, of primary ball-handler and play-maker. Essentially the de facto point guard. Carter hasn't.


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## Jordan VS WHO!! (Jun 25, 2004)

farhan007 said:


> pretty arguable with you... go ahead and dont believe 99.9% of the people. How many times have you heard Vince being the most talneted player? I never heard it once. But i heard Mcgraday being the most talented many times....
> 
> Its only arguable to you.... Before Mcgrady ever came to the Rockets, where i didnt care really who he is, i still believed Mcgrady was the more athletic freak. 6'8" and better handles than Vince? Thats alot to say there. When VInce or Kobe are in a zone they always take jumpshots... thats what it means when you are on fire.... The rest of the time mcgrady when not hot, penetrates...
> 
> o btw, how does the superior penetrater and finisher only have TWO more dunks than Mcgrady? even with a superstar pg lobbing ally-hoops all day, Vince only has TWO more dunks the whole season.....I really dont know what game you watch....


That's coz Vince had 1 dunk in his 15 games in TO.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> It's interesting...you're one of the very few people who claims this about McGrady. Most of McGrady's detractors argue precisely the opposite: He's too passive about looking for his own shot and sets up teammates *too* much.
> 
> Personally, as a McGrady fan, I think he's a smart player...if he's getting favourable defense (like single teams or weak double-teams), he looks for his shot and pretty much kills the opposition. If the opposing defense is collapsing on him and leaving his teammates wide open, he drives and kicks.
> 
> I think he's the best and most willing passer of the three. Carter may now be a willing passer, but I'd place his passing skills behind that of McGrady and Bryant. Both Bryant and McGrady have taken on the mantle, for at least short periods, of primary ball-handler and play-maker. Essentially the de facto point guard. Carter hasn't.


Perhaps it is not his passing 'skills,' per se, that I find lacking, but his overall decision making, and when he chooses to go his own way and when he chooses to involve others. I see TMac take so many awful shots, and so many shots where no one else got involved in the play that I just can't consider him a good creator. Same w/ Kobe.


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## Jordan VS WHO!! (Jun 25, 2004)

PennyHardaway said:


> 5 pages and nobodys brought up defense yet? kobe and tmac are way better defenders then vince. vince just cant guard anything man to man. in terms of offensive output, their all equal to me. they all get it done, and they all have their own unique style of doin it


If you think Vince can't guard anyone one-on-one, watch any Boston-TO, Miami-TO game, where he's either matched up against Paul P or Wade or other star guards. Vince can turn it on when his image is at stake. He shut wade down big time, when it mattered. He can play defense, it's just he's too lazy and saves energy for the offensive end. Ditto TMAC. 

Honestly, if there were 10 seconds on a shot clock and the game on the line, i'd put KOBE>VINCE>TMAC to gaurd the other teams best player. That's just my own personal opinion. If it's the whole game, it's a different story, I'd go with Kobe>VINCE=TMAC. Kobe's defense might be overrated, but he's still much better than VC/Tmac in that departmnet


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Perhaps it is not his passing 'skills,' per se, that I find lacking, but his overall decision making, and when he chooses to go his own way and when he chooses to involve others. I see TMac take so many awful shots, and so many shots where no one else got involved in the play that I just can't consider him a good creator. Same w/ Kobe.


They all take bad shots...that's what primary scoring perimeter players do...they jack up shots...Kobe and McGrady are better playmakers..its more natural to them....

...they've each(tmac, kobe) at one point and time have been their teams primary ball-handler...hell back in toronto McGrady played that roll..

...so once again its 1. kobe 1. tmac 3. carter....its has been this way for 4 years


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

tone wone said:


> You actually think Vince is more talented than Kobe and Tmac???....and Tmac is the least talented of the group???
> 
> ...and KG is arguablly the best player in the L(argument had more weight when Twolves were in WCF last year..but still)
> 
> but if you want a great breakdown of the three then here......http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?p=2100380#post2100380


Its all very subjective when it gets to the NBA level, everyone there is talented, otherwise they wouldn't be there. I could make an argument for either player being talented than the other, but when it comes right down to it I see Vince making more spectacular and memorable plays than either Kobe or Tracy, so he gets my nod. Every game he does at least a couple of things that would make any average players career, and Vince does it with ease.

I never said KG wasn't the best player in the league, I was just saying that Tracy belongs in the KG/Jermaine O'neal group before he's in the Kobe/Vince group, just because of the type of players they are. I'm not saying he belongs there because that group is less talented...thats far from true.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

I'm happy to see VC mentioned with the great SGs in the league without his supporters being absolutely ridiculed. I knew my defending of him had some defense. There were plenty of people writing him completely off, and that was before his poor showing with Toronto this year. 

He's below Tmac and Kobe all-round but as he's on their level as a scorer.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

snowmt said:


> Agree. As long as the end results (pts, FG%, etc.) are the same,
> who cares that you have 1 way or 25 ways to put the ball in?
> Kobe has by far the most offensive moves, but his production and
> efficiency are about the same as the other two.


kobe's scoring efficiency (ppfga) has been the best of the trio, both for the year, and since the all-star break. 

kobe - 1.12 for year, 1.19 since as break
vince - 1.08 for year, 1.13 since as break
tmac - 1.05 for year, 1.06 since as break


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

Jordan VS WHO!! said:


> If you think Vince can't guard anyone one-on-one, watch any Boston-TO, Miami-TO game, where he's either matched up against Paul P or Wade or other star guards. Vince can turn it on when his image is at stake. He shut wade down big time, when it mattered. He can play defense, it's just he's too lazy and saves energy for the offensive end. Ditto TMAC.
> 
> Honestly, if there were 10 seconds on a shot clock and the game on the line, i'd put KOBE>VINCE>TMAC to gaurd the other teams best player. That's just my own personal opinion. If it's the whole game, it's a different story, I'd go with Kobe>VINCE=TMAC. Kobe's defense might be overrated, but he's still much better than VC/Tmac in that departmnet



well ive been watching vince closely since he came to jersey, and the only time vince plays effective defense is in a zone, playing the passing lanes. and since were judging whos better now, how is using vince carter from 03-02-01 relevant? hes gotten his fair share of injuries since then, and he still aint playin d.

tmac is a great defender. i think saying you would rather have vince on somebody rather then tracy is crazy. McGrady was compared to Pippen with his length and lateral quickness. if you wanna go by the past, tmac shut down the then 20 PPG glenn robinson in the playoffs while averaging 33 points per game. He led all rookies in blocks as well. sure tmac doesnt try at times, but does vince ever try? its been like 55 games in jersey, and ive never seen him make a stop 1-1 yet.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

kflo said:


> kobe's scoring efficiency (ppfga) has been the best of the trio, both for the year, and since the all-star break.
> 
> kobe - 1.12 for year, 1.19 since as break
> vince - 1.08 for year, 1.13 since as break
> tmac - 1.05 for year, 1.06 since as break


Team record please!


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

PennyHardaway said:


> well ive been watching vince closely since he came to jersey, and the only time vince plays effective defense is in a zone, playing the passing lanes. and since were judging whos better now, how is using vince carter from 03-02-01 relevant? hes gotten his fair share of injuries since then, and he still aint playin d.
> 
> tmac is a great defender. i think saying you would rather have vince on somebody rather then tracy is crazy. McGrady was compared to Pippen with his length and lateral quickness. if you wanna go by the past, tmac shut down the then 20 PPG glenn robinson in the playoffs while averaging 33 points per game. He led all rookies in blocks as well. sure tmac doesnt try at times, but does vince ever try? its been like 55 games in jersey, and ive never seen him make a stop 1-1 yet.


i remember t-mac in toronto.... he was a defensive machine!!!How many gaurds get almost 2 blocks per game?!?!!??! thats insane... T-mac's lateral quickness and long arms are unmatched from a gaurd's point of view...


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

PHeNoM Z28 said:


> I never said KG wasn't the best player in the league, *I was just saying that Tracy belongs in the KG/Jermaine O'neal group before he's in the Kobe/Vince group,*


And what type of group is that? Because if T-mac is not in it, quality of play is obviously not something that "group" ranks all too highly.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

John said:


> Team record please!


i was responding to scoring efficiency. team record is a different topic.


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

this is really ridiculous.... i cant believe that half a soeasn of good play from Vince automaticly shoots himself up to mcgrady and kobe's level..

and is it all on Vince that New Jersey has been playing well as of late? I thikJason Kidd getting 10+ assists and getting tripple doubles regularly is a bigger factor.... Face it... Vince does not have the responsibility that Mcgrady and Kobe have of leading the team... Kobe and Mcgrady have to be the primary playmakers on their team, while Vince has JASON FREAKIN KIDD...

thats a huge burden that Vince doesnt have...


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

farhan007 said:


> this is really ridiculous.... i cant believe that half a soeasn of good play from Vince automaticly shoots himself up to mcgrady and kobe's level..
> 
> and is it all on Vince that New Jersey has been playing well as of late? I thikJason Kidd getting 10+ assists and getting tripple doubles regularly is a bigger factor.... Face it... Vince does not have the responsibility that Mcgrady and Kobe have of leading the team... Kobe and Mcgrady have to be the primary playmakers on their team, while Vince has JASON FREAKIN KIDD...
> 
> thats a huge burden that Vince doesnt have...


All true. Its a team game, though, and within the teams that all three of them are on, Vince is playing the best *right now*. That's the only point that I have wanted to make.


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

Mcgrady just won player of the week.... Kidd won it in the East... Just prooves my point that Kidd is the bigger reason for Nets' recent success.

Mcgrady and AI are the only 2 players to get the award 4 times this year.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

farhan007 said:


> Mcgrady just won player of the week.... Kidd won it in the East... Just prooves my point that Kidd is the bigger reason for Nets' recent success.
> 
> Mcgrady and AI are the only 2 players to get the award 4 times this year.


I think Vince won it last week, didn't he?


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> All true. Its a team game, though, and within the teams that all three of them are on, Vince is playing the best *right now*. That's the only point that I have wanted to make.





SeaNet said:


> That's just totally wrong. I have no problem w/ someone thinking Kobe or TMac is a better player, but w/ the Nets Vince has been an incredible playmaker and passer, *way better than TMac for sure*, and I think better than Kobe (and much more willing to create for others than both of them). And to say his handle is w/ Peja's? Have you even watched Vince w/ the Nets?


  Alot of homerism in this thread coming from the Nets fans. When you say Carter and Kobe are better than TMac at knocking down shots coming off of screens you aren't being fair to all 3 parties. McGrady and Kobe are putting up big numbers in stagnant offenses. Carter is getting alot of feeds from Kidd and transition buckets. Vince a better playmaker than Kobe and TMac? First time I've heard that argument. I think Carter is just as explosive as these two offensively but really not close to being the all-round player either is. I know I would not trade McGrady or Kobe for Carter even if NJ included 3 first round draft picks.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> Alot of homerism in this thread coming from the Nets fans. When you say Carter and Kobe are better than TMac at knocking down shots coming off of screens you aren't being fair to all 3 parties. McGrady and Kobe are putting up big numbers in stagnant offenses. Carter is getting alot of feeds from Kidd and transition buckets. Vince a better playmaker than Kobe and TMac? First time I've heard that argument. I think Carter is just as explosive as these two offensively but really not close to being the all-round player either is. I know I would not trade McGrady or Kobe for Carter even if NJ included 3 first round draft picks.


Have you seen Carter play, recently? The man has been unreal. Positively unreal. That's my only point. Right now, he's playing out of his head and better than Kobe and TMac. As for coming off screens, I didn't say anything of the kind myself, as that's not something I have been watching all three for. But creating for others? I have been watching for that, and Vince has been amazing since coming to the Nets. Everyone on the team can't stop gushing about his passing. The biggest thing for me when comparing the three of them is that Vince is doing it within the framework of the offense (everyone on the team is involved), and he's doing a little bit of everything offensively. Whatever the team needs, Vince has got it. And this is purely a 'right now' opinion. I've been very hard on Vince in the past, but since coming to the Nets he's been great and getting better and better all the time.


----------



## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

EHL said:


> In order:
> 
> 1) Kobe
> 2) God


Tsk tsk, another Kobe fanboy trying to put Kobe above Jordan.


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Have you seen Carter play, recently? The man has been unreal. Positively unreal. That's my only point. Right now, he's playing out of his head and better than Kobe and TMac. As for coming off screens, I didn't say anything of the kind myself, as that's not something I have been watching all three for. But creating for others? I have been watching for that, and Vince has been amazing since coming to the Nets. Everyone on the team can't stop gushing about his passing. The biggest thing for me when comparing the three of them is that Vince is doing it within the framework of the offense (everyone on the team is involved), and he's doing a little bit of everything offensively. Whatever the team needs, Vince has got it. And this is purely a 'right now' opinion. I've been very hard on Vince in the past, but since coming to the Nets he's been great and getting better and better all the time.


funny how Vince is playing out of his mind playmaking wize and still averages less assists for any part of this year or month....


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## Shanghai Kid (Mar 7, 2003)

1. Tracy Mcgrady- The most talented of the bunch in my opinion. I really like how he plays in Houston, he plays about as much of a team game as a perimeter player can. He picks his spots to shoot, and he gets everybody open looks. At the same time, he could be the most dominant perimeter player since Jordan if he wanted to be. That 62 point game vs the Wiz last year was just ridiculas, he hit every tough shot possible. People saying Kobe and Vince have more versatility offensively, does it matter? T-Macs pull up jumper is UNSTOPPABLE, the only other player with that unstoppable of a pull up jumper is Dirk. Whenever I see him drive to the hoop he finishes with an amazing move, but than he'll settle for a few jumpers before driving again, he could definetly be more aggressive.

2. Kobe Bryant- Kobe's gotten much slack this season which he deserves, BUT this is a down year for him and he still put up 28/6/5, albeit on low percentages. He's the best defender of the group, and I really he think he has the biggest WILL to win of the group. This hasn't been discussed much here, but I think Kobe may have the best work ethic with the group along with the biggest desire to win, but all that stuff is objectable. 

3. Vince Carter- The biggest questions with him are desire/work ethic, and the fact that he dogged it in Toronto. But, he's as an amazing as all around offensive player in the leauge today. The man can SHOOT. I don't know 
whats in the air in Jersey but the man just hits crazy, difficult shots. He has as much range as anybody and just is a ridiculas shooter right now.

That's how I would rank them now, if VC keeps up this play next season than he IS on Kobe/T-macs level.

On another point, I don't think Wade is anywhere near as versatile as these players above. Yet, alot of people because Kobe is on a downseason or for whatever reasons make stupid comments like Wade>Kobe, Wade>T-Mac, Wade>VC, I hope that hype dies down soon.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

I do agree that T-Mac is better Carter interms of being all-around, but you dont win championship by being all-around, guys.

Carter's one on one is unstoppable along with Kobe. Sure, Kobe might have problems understanding how to get his teammates involved , bu at least LA knows that they got the the piece where the player's offense is a legitimate NBA championship type of first option player, he just have to learn to be a team player.

James is so much advance in the department of getting his teammates involved, but the thing is he doesnt have Kobe's one on one offense. There will not be any here and there offense, and there will not be pick and roll offense if u want a championship ring.

Guys like Malone, Stockton, Barkely, Drexler, David Robinson, Ewing and etc are all great offensive players, but none of those have the "I can score on one on one anytime at will" type of moves.

Malone plays with Hustle, Stockton feeds off him. Barkely was close but he can only slowly back down in lowpost and that's where defensive help is easy to help. Drexler was all open court and sometimes driving to the hoop but within the flow. David Robinson was all atheleticism and etc.

I have no problems with interms of over skills, T-Mac is better than Carter. But's it's not like the more skills you got, the better NBA player you are interms of leading a team to a championship.

Just watched Jordan in the mid 90s to late 90s, Jordan didnt need to play as all-around like T-mac and Kobe to win championship and infact he was even better than his early 90s. Jordan role was to score within the flow, playing off the ball, but only go one on one when it is needed. That's what Carter is doing and Jason Kidd was the Pippen to some extent! If u want to win a thing with your guard as the first option, he must play without the ball, and have another perimeter player to do the facilicting role! I have been saying all along that if T-mac was being taken away his stop and pop 3s, pick and roll most of the time, the guy would just be barely 20 point scorer, but I feel like he is at the best when playing roaming defense, score here and there, uses his smarts to pick his spot rather then using pick and roll to free himself up for shots. And if pick and roll plays only involved shooters in the game, it doesnt allow you to have anotehr creator on the team, because T-mac just getting players finishing shots and in the NBA history was proven that there is no freaking way you can win with pick and roll style of basketball as your consistently weapon.


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

John said:


> I do agree that T-Mac is better Carter interms of being all-around, but you dont win championship by being all-around, guys.
> 
> Carter's one on one is unstoppable along with Kobe. Sure, Kobe might have problems understanding how to get his teammates involved , bu at least LA knows that they got the the piece where the player's offense is a legitimate NBA championship type of first option player, he just have to learn to be a team player.
> 
> ...


wow... weirdest post ever.... 
Jordan throughout his career averaged 6+ assists and 6+ rebounds and was one of the best defenders ever... Jordan not all around????


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

farhan007 said:


> funny how Vince is playing out of his mind playmaking wize and still averages less assists for any part of this year or month....


I don't go by numbers. Stephon averages 8+ assists per game an still manages to be a horrendous playmaker. Its about decision making w/ the ball, and getting the ball to people who can make something happen (not just to people who have open shots). That's what I watch for.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

John said:


> If u want to win a thing with your guard as the first option, he must play without the ball, and have another perimeter player to do the facilicting role!


Bingo.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> Bingo.


If by " Bingo" you mean that Vince is the only one out of the 3 playing with an all star guard than yeah it is " Bingo"

No idea how what John says proves that VC is better than T-mac and Kobe.

Anyways its pathetic to say who is playing better right now, you have to judge them based on the whole season. And since Carter hasn't played ( tried) for a whole season then you can't say he is better than T-mac or Kobe.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> If by " Bingo" you mean that Vince is the only one out of the 3 playing with an all star guard than yeah it is " Bingo"
> 
> No idea how what John says proves that VC is better than T-mac and Kobe.
> 
> Anyways its pathetic to say who is playing better right now, you have to judge them based on the whole season. And since Carter hasn't played ( tried) for a whole season then you can't say he is better than T-mac or Kobe.


'Pathetic' to say who's playing better right now? And I 'can't say' he's better now, and I 'have to judge them on the whole season'? Says who? You? I need a little more than that. We do still have freedom of speech here don't we? So I think I can say 'Vince is playing better right now'.... Vince is playing better right now. Feel free to disagree. But please don't tell me I can't hold a particular opinion.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> 'Pathetic' to say who's playing better right now? And I 'can't say' he's better now, and I 'have to judge them on the whole season'? Says who? You? I need a little more than that. We do still have freedom of speech here don't we? So I think I can say 'Vince is playing better right now'.... Vince is playing better right now. Feel free to disagree. But please don't tell me I can't hold a particular opinion.


Thanks for completly ignoring this part of my post



> If by " Bingo" you mean that Vince is the only one out of the 3 playing with an all star guard than yeah it is " Bingo"
> 
> No idea how what John says proves that VC is better than T-mac and Kobe.


And about what you said in your post just because you have an opinion doesn't make it right. When Tyronne Lue plays one game better than Jason Kidd does that mean that you will not find it wrong if I make a thread saying Tyronne Lue Is Better Than Jason Kidd Right Now?


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Seanet, 

Carter at his very best still isn't quite as good as either Tmac or Kobe overall in any season since both players reached their relative potential in 2000/2001, and that includes Tmac/Kobe's "bad" seasons. I'll give you 3-point shooting, Vince is an underrated 3-pt threat, better than Tmac and noticeably better than Kobe. 

And Tmac, if anything, is too passive. He does take ill advised jumpers a lot, but he also makes a lot of them. He's the best passer of the three too, IMO, and takes care of the ball noticeably better than Kobe and better than VC. He beats double teams with his sharp and quick passes more quickly than Kobe and much better than VC. Also, another thing to consider is that VC doesn't get nearly the same amount of defensive attention that Tmac or Kobe do. It's like arguing Elton Brand is about as good as Tim Duncan; statistically both are very close, but the Brand-Duncan comparison is flawed because stats don't tell you how much attention Duncan draws, or how great of a defender Duncan is, compared to Brand. Speaking of defense, Kobe and Tmac play it, VC hasn't shown any consistency with his, nor does he seem to have the psychological ability to play it, with Kobe being the best defender of the three (though his D has fallen off precipitously since March). 

I will say that VC is an efficient scorer, close to Tmac (though not close when you take into account the defensive attention Tmac receives compared to VC). As kflo pointed out, PPFGA for them 

kobe - 1.12 for year, 1.19 since AS break
vince - 1.08 for year, 1.13 since AS break
tmac - 1.05 for year, 1.06 since AS break



Minstrel said:


> Tsk tsk, another Kobe fanboy trying to put Kobe above Jordan.


Guilty as charged.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> And about what you said in your post just because you have an opinion doesn't make it right. When Tyronne Lue plays one game better than Jason Kidd does that mean that you will not find it wrong if I make a thread saying Tyronne Lue Is Better Than Jason Kidd Right Now?


If you can't tell the difference between those two scenarios....

And as for the first part of your post, Kobe and TMac need one of two things if they want to win championships. Either someone else has to take the ball out of their hands (and they have to be willing to let it happen (see: Odom)), or they need to change their games, and focus on setting others up, and looking for their own offense later (which neither of them does).


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> If you can't tell the difference between those two scenarios....
> 
> And as for the first part of your post, Kobe and TMac need one of two things if they want to win championships. Either someone else has to take the ball out of their hands (and they have to be willing to let it happen (see: Odom)), or they need to change their games, and focus on setting others up, and looking for their own offense later (which neither of them does).


Yeah but how does that fact make Vince better... answer: it doesn't ... he isn't!


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

EHL said:


> Seanet,
> 
> Carter at his very best still isn't quite as good as either Tmac or Kobe overall in any season since both players reached their relative potential in 2000/2001, and that includes Tmac/Kobe's "bad" seasons.
> 
> ...


For the first part, I never said he was better over any whole season. I said he's playing better right now, in the second half of this season. Its fine if you disagree. But I never made any claims about whole seasons, and everyone is using that to dispute my claim.

And as for the stat thing, it just doesn't mean as much to me as it does to you. You could be an incredibly efficient scorer by those standards, and still hold your team back because you look for your own offense too much, and your teammates don't get involved in the flow of the game. I've seen it happen, because it happens all the time. Numbers are useful but they are far from the be-all end-all in sports. They don't take into effect game flow, the pass before the assist pass, etc. Its a team game. An individual's numbers, while somewhat informative, by no means tell the whole story.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> Yeah but how does that fact make Vince better... answer: it doesn't ... he isn't!


Answer: he's in a better situation, and therefore is having a more positive impact on his team, and therefore is playing better basketball. When Kobe had Shaq to play w/, I seriously doubt you took the same stance you are taking here. Or were you all over these boards arguing that TMac was better than Kobe because Kobe had Shaq to work w/, and TMac was all alone?


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

SeaNet said:


> Answer: he's in a better situation, and therefore is having a more positive impact on his team, and therefore is playing better basketball. When Kobe had Shaq to play w/, I seriously doubt you took the same stance you are taking here. Or were you all over these boards arguing that TMac was better than Kobe because Kobe had Shaq to work w/, and TMac was all alone?


I wasn't on these boards so that is irrelevant. What are you basing your facts on that he has a more positive impact on his team than T-mac and Kobe. Kidd is the one that makes that team what it is. Kobe and T-mac have just as much of a positive impact as Carter if not more.


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Answer: he's in a better situation, and therefore is having a more positive impact on his team, and therefore is playing better basketball. When Kobe had Shaq to play w/, I seriously doubt you took the same stance you are taking here. Or were you all over these boards arguing that TMac was better than Kobe because Kobe had Shaq to work w/, and TMac was all alone?


how is vince having more positive impact over mcgrady on their respective team if Mcgrady is leading his team to a better record?


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

farhan007 said:


> how is vince having more positive impact over mcgrady on their respective team if Mcgrady is leading his team to a better record?


OK, fine, Kobe and TMac are better players than Vince and always will be. You have all beaten me down.    

I hope you feel good about yourselves.

:biggrin:


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> OK, fine, Kobe and TMac are better players than Vince and always will be. You have all beaten me down.
> 
> I hope you feel good about yourselves.
> 
> :biggrin:


it took a while :biggrin: but you have finally sided with the truth....
and unless kobe or Mcgrady get injured and ruin their careers, Vince does not have as high of a ceiling as kobe or mcgrady....


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

farhan007 said:


> it took a while :biggrin: but you have finally sided with the truth....
> and unless kobe or Mcgrady get injured and ruin their careers, Vince does not have as high of a ceiling as kobe or mcgrady....


Blasphemy!!!! No injury to Kobe or TMac could make them worse than Vince!!!


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Have you seen Carter play, recently? The man has been unreal. Positively unreal. That's my only point. Right now, he's playing out of his head and better than Kobe and TMac. As for coming off screens, I didn't say anything of the kind myself, as that's not something I have been watching all three for. But creating for others? I have been watching for that, and Vince has been amazing since coming to the Nets. Everyone on the team can't stop gushing about his passing. The biggest thing for me when comparing the three of them is that Vince is doing it within the framework of the offense (everyone on the team is involved), and he's doing a little bit of everything offensively. Whatever the team needs, Vince has got it. And this is purely a 'right now' opinion. I've been very hard on Vince in the past, but since coming to the Nets he's been great and getting better and better all the time.


You're acting like McGrady hasn't been playing unreal lately (not including a 5 game slump). You do know everything you said about Vince can be said about McGrady after the All Star break... and McGrady has done it against much tougher opposition creating for himself.

I'm glad the Nets are gushing about Vince's passing, because they should be. But once you watch the high post fastballs McGrady fires into a cutting James, you'll realize what an accurate and efficient passer McGrady is. He can direct passes to anyone on the court at anytime thanks to superior instinct and his long arms.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> You're acting like McGrady hasn't been playing unreal lately (not including a 5 game slump). You do know everything you said about Vince can be said about McGrady after the All Star break... and McGrady has done it against much tougher opposition creating for himself.
> 
> I'm glad the Nets are gushing about Vince's passing, because they should be. But once you watch the high post fastballs McGrady fires into a cutting James, you'll realize what an accurate and efficient passer McGrady is. He can direct passes to anyone on the court at anytime thanks to superior instinct and his long arms.


You are too late, good sir. I have already conceded this argument and all future ones regarding Vince, Kobe, and TMac.

To Kobe and TMac... :cheers:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Stupid comments like Vince has only played half a season and because of that he shouldnt be compared to Kobe and T-mac. Thats absurd. He's played what over 56 games for the nets. Lets just look at it this way if Vince had played since the beginning of the year for the nets, he would be in MVP talks right now, something that both Kobe and T-mac arent


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

SPMJ said:


> And what type of group is that?


Tall lanky guys with traditional guard skills and ability.



Hbwoy said:


> Stupid comments like Vince has only played half a season and because of that he shouldnt be compared to Kobe and T-mac. Thats absurd. He's played what over 56 games for the nets. Lets just look at it this way if Vince had played since the beginning of the year for the nets, he would be in MVP talks right now, something that both Kobe and T-mac arent


Agreed, except I think Tmac should be a candidate for MVP this year. I don't think he should win, but he should at least be mentioned.


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> Stupid comments like Vince has only played half a season and because of that he shouldnt be compared to Kobe and T-mac. Thats absurd. He's played what over 56 games for the nets. Lets just look at it this way if Vince had played since the beginning of the year for the nets, he would be in MVP talks right now, something that both Kobe and T-mac arent


t-mac is top 5 in mvp talks... Vince wouldnt be up there even if he played the whole season with the Nets


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

farhan007 said:


> Vince wouldnt be up there even if he played the whole season with the Nets


:whofarted...................















.......

*cricket chirp*


BWAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

PHeNoM Z28 said:


> :whofarted...................
> 
> 
> 
> ...


let me restate... he wouldnt be top 5. He would be up there... more like top 7...


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## Jordan VS WHO!! (Jun 25, 2004)

PennyHardaway said:


> McGrady was compared to Pippen with his length and lateral quickness.
> 
> if you wanna go by the past, tmac shut down the then 20 PPG glenn robinson in the playoffs while averaging 33 points per game. He led all rookies in blocks as well. sure tmac doesnt try at times, but does vince ever try? its been like 55 games in jersey, and ive never seen him make a stop 1-1 yet.


And.. VC was compared with Jordan, Darko was compared to GOD. You get the picture. 

Glenn Who? Seriously pull up this yrs heat -toronto game and watch Vince's D on wade. VC is also overall a better shot blocker than TMac (better instincts).


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## Jordan VS WHO!! (Jun 25, 2004)

Mr. Roger's Cardigan said:


> I know I would not trade McGrady or Kobe for Carter even if NJ included 3 first round draft picks.


Then you're not a very good GM.


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## MVPlaya (Oct 12, 2003)

Carter plus 3 first round picks...hmmm you sure you wouldn't do this? 3 first round picks.......

Altho running across a McGrady and Kobe is very hard, I'm not sure if I would just hold them back for Carter and 3 first round picks. Depends, 3 first round picks in the same year? or what?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> OK, fine, Kobe and TMac are better players than Vince and always will be. You have all beaten me down.
> 
> I hope you feel good about yourselves.
> 
> :biggrin:


There, there...Vince still has a lot to be proud of.


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

farhan007 said:


> how is vince having more positive impact over mcgrady on their respective team if Mcgrady is leading his team to a better record?


I actually think Yao makes a bigger impact on wins than Tmac does. Without Yao, that team would be worse than the lakers.


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

crimsonice said:


> I actually think Yao makes a bigger impact on wins than Tmac does. Without Yao, that team would be worse than the lakers.


thats why yao plays 30 and somtimes 25 minutes per game and t-mac plays 41mpg?


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

EuroScout said:


> if you are talking about the whole season:
> 1- T-mac
> 2- Kobe
> 3- Vince
> ...


i dont even have to read the rest of the thread. this is the post that probably made the most sense.


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## momocult45 (Apr 16, 2005)

1 bryant 
2 tmac
3 vince
-Bryant has more heart than the two of them, so hes number one
-tmac has better stats overall than the two this season, but gives up to easily in losing efforts
-vince plays when he wants to play and thats not cool, ask toronto


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

farhan007 said:


> it took a while :biggrin: but you have finally sided with the truth....
> and unless kobe or Mcgrady get injured and ruin their careers, Vince does not have as high of a ceiling as kobe or mcgrady....


I think he was being sarcastic... :wink: At least I hope so, I'll never give in!


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jordan VS WHO!! said:


> Then you're not a very good GM.


You're right. He's a _great_ GM.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

```
Bryant has more heart than the two of them, so hes number one
```
How far has Bryants' heart taken him this season, thats right the lottery and please dont tell me the nets have a better supporting cast than the lakers


```
tmac has better stats overall than the two this season, but gives up to easily in losing efforts
```
Its not like he his way ahead of the other two statistically matter of fact Vince's NJ stats are better than him


```
vince plays when he wants to play and thats not cool, ask toronto
```
Last year he was seventh leading scorer on a team that couldnt crack 90pts, 23/5/5 and after the allstar break last year was scoring 26/5/5


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## darrinlane (Jan 23, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Its team ball, and the Nets are 19-4 when Vince scores over thirty this year.


 I think the Rockets are like 19-2 when TMac scores over 30. I think our record is abysmal when Yao scores 30(might be wrong). All three of the players are great. I'm not going to post my feelings because I'm too much of a Rocket homer. Good luck to you guys.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

darrinlane said:


> I think the Rockets are like 19-2 when TMac scores over 30. I think our record is abysmal when Yao scores 30(might be wrong). All three of the players are great. I'm not going to post my feelings because I'm too much of a Rocket homer. Good luck to you guys.


Good luck to you as well. And thanks for the answer to that question. I was wondering what the Rockets record was when TMac scored 30. I can accept that TMac has been playing better than I have been giving him credit for. I still just don't like his play to play decision making, though. The Rockets should try to trade up and get Deron Williams, a playmaker who can take the ball out of TMac's hands.


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

farhan007 said:


> Mcgrady just won player of the week.... Kidd won it in the East... Just prooves my point that Kidd is the bigger reason for Nets' recent success.
> 
> Mcgrady and AI are the only 2 players to get the award 4 times this year.


Jkidd averaged a trpl dbl this week,thats why he won.

Kidd helps VC a lot. But everytime players on the nets have gotten WIDE OPEN SHOTS,it was because of VC's dbl teams and his ability to RECOGNIZE the double team and start a healthy chain of ball movement has allowed Cliff Robinson,Travis Best,Rodney Buford,Scalabrine,Jason Collins,Krstic to get open looks.

VC may average 4.8 assts...But the number of assists to the assists he has per game are countless.

Yeah,Kidd helps a lot.But he doesn't attract dbl teams.he doen't hit circus 3's.
he doesn't hit stepback 3's.He doesn't make so-called defensive stoppers Iggy and Bowen look like clowns everytime he faces them.

Kidd,besides his penetration,cannot create his own shots.And for him to average 18ppg in a week. Since when does he jack up 3's at the rate he is and hitting most of them.

ONE player is to thank.

-T-Mac has Yao
-Kobe has shooters everywhere but doesn't utilize them.
-Carter has Kidd but on any given 40 point night.Kidd directly leads to,at most,8points.

Kobe has Odom,Butler,Atkins
T-Mac has Yao,Barry,Wesley,James.
Carter has Scalabrine,Collins,Robinson,Krstic

I'm not saying those nets players suck,as i have a great deal of respect for them.But compare that the lists above...and its a real eye opener.

All I'm saying is that carter's presence leads to open shots for those guys.

Cut the guy some slack instead of saying that Kidd is the SOLE reason for Carter's success.


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

darrinlane said:


> I think the Rockets are like 19-2 when TMac scores over 30. I think our record is abysmal when Yao scores 30(might be wrong). All three of the players are great. I'm not going to post my feelings because I'm too much of a Rocket homer. Good luck to you guys.


t-mac's team is 23-3 when he scores 30 or more


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Good luck to you as well. And thanks for the answer to that question. I was wondering what the Rockets record was when TMac scored 30. I can accept that TMac has been playing better than I have been giving him credit for. I still just don't like his play to play decision making, though. The Rockets should try to trade up and get Deron Williams, a playmaker who can take the ball out of TMac's hands.


t-mac is clearly the best passer on the team and clearly makes the best feeds to yao. When ya has that split second of getting off the defender and free for a an easy dunk, t-mac gets it to him right at that moment with a lazer to yao's head where it is easiest for yao to grab and dunk right away.... he also does it with efficiency averaging less than 3 to's per game.... so what do you not like about his decision making?


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## Captain Obvious (Jun 15, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Good luck to you as well. And thanks for the answer to that question. I was wondering what the Rockets record was when TMac scored 30. I can accept that TMac has been playing better than I have been giving him credit for. I still just don't like his play to play decision making, though. The Rockets should try to trade up and get Deron Williams, a playmaker who can take the ball out of TMac's hands.


The Rockets are 22-3 when he scores 30 or more. 

I'm sorry, but I can't take you seriously when you keep saying that you dont like T-Mac's decision making. Out of the three, T-Mac has the ball in the hands just as much and he racks up assists while taking care off the ball very well. Please explain to me what's wrong with his decision making. Who would you rather have handle the ball on that team?


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## darrinlane (Jan 23, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Good luck to you as well. And thanks for the answer to that question. I was wondering what the Rockets record was when TMac scored 30. I can accept that TMac has been playing better than I have been giving him credit for. I still just don't like his play to play decision making, though. The Rockets should try to trade up and get Deron Williams, a playmaker who can take the ball out of TMac's hands.


It would be nice to trade up but I just don't think the Rox have any assets that anyone would want(Our first round picks are most likely going to stink for years...hopefully) We do have large expiring contracts but I think our owner wants to keep them(we gave up picks to get rid of GRice). No team picking high is going to want any of our old players and It would just be stupid to give up part of our core.


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

VCFSO2000 said:


> Jkidd averaged a trpl dbl this week,thats why he won.
> 
> Kidd helps VC a lot. But everytime players on the nets have gotten WIDE OPEN SHOTS,it was because of VC's dbl teams and his ability to RECOGNIZE the double team and start a healthy chain of ball movement has allowed Cliff Robinson,Travis Best,Rodney Buford,Scalabrine,Jason Collins,Krstic to get open looks.
> 
> ...


when di i say sole reason??? he is the BIGGER reason..... and i think most will agree. Kidd is running the fast break to perfection and penetrating and hitting the open man..... and throwing lobs at VC...


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

What I don't like about TMac's play-to-play decision making is his penchant for launching deep shots wo/ anyone else (or almost anyone else (depending on the play)) touching the ball. Do alot of those shots go in? Yes. But are the other guys standing around w/ their hands on their dicks? Yes. And does that basic mindset that he can just take it himself whenever he wants and launch a deep jumper lead to some truly awful possessions? Yes. That's what I don't like. If that means you can't take me 'seriously,' then so be it. TMac's great, but for that team to be as good as it can possibly be, someone else needs to be the primary decision maker and ball-handler. Just point out to me all the teams that won the title that had the primary distributor and the primary scorer as the same person, and I'll be happy to reevaluate my position.


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## VCFSO2000 (Apr 10, 2005)

farhan007 said:


> when di i say sole reason??? he is the BIGGER reason..... and i think most will agree. Kidd is running the fast break to perfection and penetrating and hitting the open man..... and throwing lobs at VC...


Ok,you didn't say sole reason. But throwing lobs at VC? VC scores 30ppg and he maybe gets a lob every 2 games!!

And that thing about exectuing the break?loll...The nets would love to run,should run but they don't. 

So vince doesn't get EASY points. Vince gets halfcourt points and sets people up in halfcourt situations.


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## darrinlane (Jan 23, 2003)

farhan007 said:


> t-mac's team is 23-3 when he scores 30 or more


Thanks for the correction. I was too lazy to actually look it up :biggrin: ) I think we were 19-2 at 1 point tho.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

No argumant no comparison everybody: and here is why

hate it or love it da underdog on top
and he's gone shine, till his heart stop
go head envy him
he's nba shooting gurad mvp
and he aint going no where
so u can get to know him.... 

hahah simple as that vince is the best shooting guard in the nba right now no argumant.. here are the stats

vince carterr Nj: PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% FT% 3P% MPG
27.4 6.0 4.7 1.45 .60 .462 .815 .420 38.9

vince overall : 24.3 5.3 4.2 1.40 .64 .451 .796 .401 36.6

Kobe Bryant : 27.4 6.0 6.1 1.32 .82 .432 .816 .343 40.8

Tracy mecgr: 25.7 6.2 5.7 1.73 .67 .431 .771 .326 40.8

As you can see vince is by much a better SG then those two his FG% is better and 3P% is way better than kb and tmac... so vince is better hate it or love it he is...... now i dont wanna hear any bull$$$$it alright? and vince is taking a team which had no hop of making da playoff to actually almost be there. and i hate when people say jkidd is making him better do u actually watch nets game if u do? then you should know better jkidd 3p% has improved since vince arrived so please dont use jkidd as an execuse aight?

VINCE IS THE BETTER PLAYER THAN tmac and kobe


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> No argumant no comparison everybody: and here is why
> 
> hate it or love it da underdog on top
> and he's gone shine, till his heart stop
> ...


aight.... :clap: 
no


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## Phenom Z28 (Nov 22, 2004)

farhan007 said:


> aight.... :clap:
> no


werd dawg OG :wordyo:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

```
when di i say sole reason??? he is the BIGGER reason..... and i think most will agree. Kidd is running the fast break to perfection and penetrating and hitting the open man..... and throwing lobs at VC...
```
When you make dumb comments you know it will be challenged, how many lobs do you think Kidd will get to Vince in a game. Definitely not more than 4. Thats like 8 points. Vince is dropping 30 regularly. Its easy to attribute success to something else, you prolly never thought that Vince is actually making the game easier for Kidd and the rest of the nets. What you fail to recognize is that the nets dont even get that much fastbreak points, Vince is singlehandedly carrying their half court game. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if you havent watched any net games dont make ignornat comments


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

Hbwoy said:


> ```
> when di i say sole reason??? he is the BIGGER reason..... and i think most will agree. Kidd is running the fast break to perfection and penetrating and hitting the open man..... and throwing lobs at VC...
> ```
> When you make dumb comments you know it will be challenged, how many lobs do you think Kidd will get to Vince in a game. Definitely not more than 4. Thats like 8 points. Vince is dropping 30 regularly. Its easy to attribute success to something else, you prolly never thought that Vince is actually making the game easier for Kidd and the rest of the nets. What you fail to recognize is that the nets dont even get that much fastbreak points, Vince is singlehandedly carrying their half court game. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if you havent watched any net games dont make ignornat comments


good post and good point


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## alpngso (May 23, 2003)

If Deshawn Stevenson played with Kidd, he would have scored +20 ppg probably.

1.Kobe Bryant
1.T-Mac





3. Vince Carter.

How can you say Carter's better than those two? He's been great only about 3 months in about 3 year span. Also he gets an advantage of playing with Jason Kidd. Jason "Friggin'" Kidd! He's not David Wesley or Chucky Atkins.

I rest my case.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> What I don't like about TMac's play-to-play decision making is his penchant for launching deep shots wo/ anyone else (or almost anyone else (depending on the play)) touching the ball. Do alot of those shots go in? Yes. But are the other guys standing around w/ their hands on their dicks? Yes. And does that basic mindset that he can just take it himself whenever he wants and launch a deep jumper lead to some truly awful possessions? Yes. That's what I don't like. If that means you can't take me 'seriously,' then so be it. TMac's great, but for that team to be as good as it can possibly be, someone else needs to be the primary decision maker and ball-handler. Just point out to me all the teams that won the title that had the primary distributor and the primary scorer as the same person, and I'll be happy to reevaluate my position.


Seanet is partially right but he failed to mention one thing. The reason T-mac is doing what you are saying because he just doesnt have the one on one scoring ability like Kobe and Carter. So when he wants to score a lot of point, he has to attack in early offense, in an offense that the defenders arent set to defend. That's have been the some problems with playing like that.

1) Seanet, you say add another creator on the team, or decision maker on the team. He will fail score his 25 points a game. he simply needs to have the ball in his hands to attack heavily in early offense. And if he doesnt have the ball in his hands, he is only an above average scorer. So there is no freaking way any teams can apply an halfcourt, disciplined offensive set on T-mac. Just watch when he was with JVG and Doc Rivers early last season. The guy suffered to output the elite all-star numbers. That's why Toronto Managment and Magic Management werent so eager to keep him because the guy simply cant step up down the stretch. Dont come back with those crazy 3 point shots he made, you dont win championships if only those shooting clutch performance occured!

2) There is no freaking way the team can have another creating perimeter player on the team playing with T-Mac. There is only one ball and when had T-mac having big scoring game under disciplined basketball? You mean Pick and Roll plays which could decide how to be played defensively by opposing team. I am not obessesd with running pick and roll, you run pick and roll here and there to free yourself up and save up energy, but Houston are simply trading all the role players who are good spot up shooters to compliment T-mac's game. There's where I shoke my head, that's why Houston threw up their white flag, that's where T-mac wont improve and that's it interms of his effectiveness. I thought T-mac could prove me wrong when he was traded to Houston and will play a more structured offense. But lol at him going to JVG and free up the offense for him.

Sigh, can you just say he never will be a winner?


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

John said:


> Seanet is partially right but he failed to mention one thing. The reason T-mac is doing what you are saying because he just doesnt have the one on one scoring ability like Kobe and Carter. So when he wants to score a lot of point, he has to attack in early offense, in an offense that the defenders arent set to defend. That's have been the some problems with playing like that.
> 
> 1) Seanet, you say add another creator on the team, or decision maker on the team. He will fail score his 25 points a game. he simply needs to have the ball in his hands to attack heavily in early offense. And if he doesnt have the ball in his hands, he is only an above average scorer. So there is no freaking way any teams can apply an halfcourt, disciplined offensive set on T-mac. Just watch when he was with JVG and Doc Rivers early last season. The guy suffered to output the elite all-star numbers. That's why Toronto Managment and Magic Management werent so eager to keep him because the guy simply cant step up down the stretch. Dont come back with those crazy 3 point shots he made, you dont win championships if only those shooting clutch performance occured!
> 
> ...


t-machas the one on one scoring ability of kobe, not the abilty of carter, because carter's one on one ability iss inferior...


FOr some reasonJohn, you always post about Mcgradny not being that athletic...??? I have no idea why?


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

John said:


> Sigh, can you just say he never will be a winner?


he is leading a 50+ win team....


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

farhan007 said:


> he is leading a 50+ win team....


That's okay mate, I respect your love for your team. But I just say when I see.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> No argumant no comparison everybody: and here is why
> 
> hate it or love it da underdog on top
> and he's gone shine, till his heart stop
> ...


The best player out of the 3 averages the least points, rebounds and assists, and blocks?

Do you call yourself a fan of basketball? This is the worst analasys of any players. He was doing **** with the team until Jason Kidd came back from his injury, and once he was healed.

BTW Vince doesn't have a Heart so how is it gonna stop. 

Vince = Quitter

P.S. Learn to spell.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> No *argumant* no comparison everybody: and here is why
> 
> hate it or love it da underdog on top
> and he's *gone* shine, till his heart stop
> ...


...


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> vince carterr Nj: PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% FT% 3P% MPG
> 27.4 6.0 4.7 1.45 .60 .462 .815 .420 38.9
> 
> vince overall : 24.3 5.3 4.2 1.40 .64 .451 .796 .401 36.6
> ...


So Michael Redd is the best shooting guard in the league?



> now i dont wanna hear any bull$$$$it alright? and vince is taking a team which had no hop of making da playoff to actually almost be there.


It's not bull**** if it is true, the only reason they have a "hop" of making the playoffs now is because Kidd is finally healthy and is directing the team.



> and i hate when people say jkidd is making him better do u actually watch nets game if u do? then you should know better jkidd 3p% has improved since vince arrived so please dont use jkidd as an execuse aight?


I think the question is do you watch Vince and Kidd play? Jason Kidd's 3 point % has gone up because he has finally fully healed from his surgery.



> VINCE IS THE BETTER PLAYER THAN tmac and kobe


Every NBA GM and Analyst would disagree with you.


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

John said:


> Seanet is partially right but he failed to mention one thing. The reason T-mac is doing what you are saying because he just doesnt have the one on one scoring ability like Kobe and Carter. So when he wants to score a lot of point, he has to attack in early offense, in an offense that the defenders arent set to defend. That's have been the some problems with playing like that.
> 
> 1) Seanet, you say add another creator on the team, or decision maker on the team. He will fail score his 25 points a game. he simply needs to have the ball in his hands to attack heavily in early offense. And if he doesnt have the ball in his hands, he is only an above average scorer. So there is no freaking way any teams can apply an halfcourt, disciplined offensive set on T-mac. Just watch when he was with JVG and Doc Rivers early last season. The guy suffered to output the elite all-star numbers. That's why Toronto Managment and Magic Management werent so eager to keep him because the guy simply cant step up down the stretch. Dont come back with those crazy 3 point shots he made, you dont win championships if only those shooting clutch performance occured!
> 
> ...


I think you're confusing Tracy McGrady with Lamar Odom...he's the one with the great talent who has no off-the-ball game....

...and exactly what was the "half-court, structure" offense the rockets were running early this season...can your break it down for me????


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

thug_immortal8 said:


> ...


lol, kid. You should ask why pick such a screename first, Air Fly? lol, Air is Air, Fly is Fly, what that hell is Air Fly eh?


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

John said:


> lol, kid. You should ask why pick such a screename first, Air Fly? lol, Air is Air, Fly is Fly, what that hell is Air Fly eh?


Well, if we're picking on screennames, we may just as well adress your terrible sig, john... :biggrin:


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

John said:


> lol, kid. You should ask why pick such a screename first, Air Fly? lol, Air is Air, Fly is Fly, what that hell is Air Fly eh?


I think he is somehow trying to represent Jordan with the name Air.


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## syknys (Jun 25, 2004)

thug_immortal8 said:


> So Michael Redd is the best shooting guard in the league?


  uhh...vince's percentages are better than redd's.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Didn't read the thread, but saw this today so thought I'd point it out - Marc Stein left Kobe (and Vince I believe) completely off his All-NBA selections.

Just an FYI. Tmac was 2nd team.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

JNice said:


> Didn't read the thread, but saw this today so thought I'd point it out - Marc Stein left Kobe (and Vince I believe) completely off his All-NBA selections.
> 
> Just an FYI. Tmac was 2nd team.


who was first team? AI and nash?


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

Debt Collector said:


> who was first team? AI and nash?


F Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas Mavericks
F Tim Duncan, San Antonio Spurs
C Shaquille O'Neal, Miami Heat
G Steve Nash, Phoenix Suns
G LeBron James, Cleveland Cavaliers

AI was 2nd team also.

Oh and Vince was 3rd team, I was wrong. No way, IMO, Vince deserves an All-NBA selection over Kobe.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

JNice said:


> F Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas Mavericks
> F Tim Duncan, San Antonio Spurs
> C Shaquille O'Neal, Miami Heat
> G Steve Nash, Phoenix Suns
> ...


blah, lebron doesnt deserve first team. i have tmac as the second team forward over garnett. so my second team is kobe, wade, tmac, lebron, and amare. most athletic starting 5 in history. i guess from there you could predict my first team.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

```
It's not bull**** if it is true, the only reason they have a "hop" of making the playoffs now is because Kidd is finally healthy and is directing the team.
```
Who is scoring most of the points 40+ points and 30+ points and please dont tell me cuz kidd give him the ball in a good position which he can score easily
that's a dum execuse so dont try to use it aight




```
I think the question is do you watch Vince and Kidd play? Jason Kidd's 3 point % has gone up because he has finally fully healed from his surgery.
```
vince draw double team and give jkidd wide open look aight get it right man




```
Every NBA GM and Analyst would disagree with you.[/QUOTE]
```
every GM wouldnt pick the selfish kobe and would agree carter is the better player and beside are you nuts? lakers are outta the playoff and carter is so whats ur point and plus Carter is a better shooter than kobe and a teamplayer get it right man i dont have to explain this again aight? if they switch team lakers would be in a playoff and new jersey wont you gotta admit that.... and tmac please if he dosent have all those shooters on his team he wouldnt do ****.. just look back before they got those guys his team was outta of the playoff.... look at vince dosent have good shooters on his team but still he gets the job done and making his teamate better
so please no more of ur disgusting comments or post aight? you guys still think of carter toronto, he's not that anymore. he's back okay to his 2001 days (not dunking like before)where every GM, fans, players consider him the best he's scary now he owned any defender teams put on him.


and yah one more thing kobe and tmac are behind carter for all time ppg okay no comparison


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## KingHandles (Mar 19, 2005)

Quote: Air Fly
Who is scoring most of the points 40+ points and 30+ points and please dont tell me cuz kidd give him the ball in a good position which he can score easily
that's a dum execuse so dont try to use it aight


:no: 

I would like to apologize for the way I used to post on this board...Reading what I used to sound like I realize the ignerence and obvious lack of knowledge for basketball...

Cater can score on his own but his numbers would not be as they are without Kidd


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

```
Cater can score on his own but his numbers would not be as they are wothout Kidd[/QUOTE]
```
okay lets say yah kidd is helping him, so what does that have to do with being better than kobe and tmac this season ha?

Tmac has yao and some crazy shooters dosent that help him too
kobe has odom butler atkins
vince has kidd. does kidd regularly score 20+ points? No

plus vince is now being mentioned in by anaylist to be in an nba 2nd or 3rd team. i dont see kobe's name tmac yah
so the comaprison now should be Tmac vs Vince

and yah i know more about basketball than you ever do
you judging players by their past and its wrong my friend


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## KingHandles (Mar 19, 2005)

Where did I judge them by past or say Tmac or or anyone else was better then carter...Tmac is Kobe is not...


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Well, if we're picking on screennames, we may just as well adress your terrible sig, john... :biggrin:




okay you dont have to ask why i chose this name, cuz you'd be stupid for asking aight? say im crazy that's why i chose that name okay.


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## bohemian (Oct 17, 2002)

JNice said:


> F Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas Mavericks
> F Tim Duncan, San Antonio Spurs
> C Shaquille O'Neal, Miami Heat
> G Steve Nash, Phoenix Suns
> ...


Honestly, you think LeBron deserves to be on the 1st team while his team is likely to miss the playoffs?

AI has arguably his most productive season, his stats are amazing (almost 31ppg and 8apg). And his team have more wins than the Cavs. Tell me what is your argument that LeBron should go first while AI second?

My 1st team will be
Dirk, Duncan, Shaq, Nash, and AI

My 2nd team will be
Tmac, KG, Amare, LeBron, Wade

Carter will be on the 3rd team, and Kobe won't be there either.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

> Oh and Vince was 3rd team, I was wrong. No way, IMO, Vince deserves an All-NBA selection over Kobe.


Are you kidding me, lead a 3-11 team to a 500 record and possibly a playoff better and yet you want Kobe over Vince whose team is 10 games or so under 500, get outta here with that faulty logic, and that arguement about Vince not having better statistical numbers than Kobe and T-ac is lame when the matter of fact is Vince has the better Fg% and 3p% than either playing less minutes too


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> ```
> It's not bull**** if it is true, the only reason they have a "hop" of making the playoffs now is because Kidd is finally healthy and is directing the team.
> ```
> Who is scoring most of the points 40+ points and 30+ points and please dont tell me cuz kidd give him the ball in a good position which he can score easily
> ...


I'm not even going to dignify this with a response. There is no point arguing with a person that has the same IQ as their age.


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## Meatwad (Feb 18, 2005)

why is someone using the code tag instead of quote? you can't even read what he's quoting w/out scrolling.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Air Fly said:


> ```
> It's not bull**** if it is true, the only reason they have a "hop" of making the playoffs now is because Kidd is finally healthy and is directing the team.
> ```
> Who is scoring most of the points 40+ points and 30+ points and please dont tell me cuz kidd give him the ball in a good position which he can score easily
> ...


....If you switched Carter and Kobe the Lakers would be in the playoffs?

Sorry, Carter doesn't make Butler/Odom/Mihm a legit frontline, he wouldn't fix the fact that Atkins is a matador on defense. Kobe hogging the ball isn't what kept the Lakers out of the playoffs. They were suprisingly acceptable scoring despite running either a completely predictable and one dimensional isolation/screen and roll offense with Tomjanovich, or playing in an unfamiliar triangle offense with Hamblen. How exactly has Carter has made his teammates better on the Nets? What has he done to elevate the game of Scalibrine, Krstic or Collins? Kidd does almost all the ball handling, Carter can play the facilitator role, but all he has really done in NJ for the most part is play off the ball while Kidd spoonfeeds him for easy buckets. When hes the primary guy coming off screens to catch and shoot, not having alot of shooters on his team is almost irrelevant when it comes to how he makes his teammates better. Hell, before he had Kidd on his team, the Raptors were out of the playoffs too.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

> Carter can play the facilitator role, but all he has really done in NJ for the most part is play off the ball while Kidd spoonfeeds him for easy buckets


Just for this stupid comment can you please tell me how many assists Kidd gets to Vince in a game since you said he spoonfeeds him.



> Hell, before he had Kidd on his team, the Raptors were out of the playoffs too.


Genius last year the raptors were 5th in the East and geared towards the playoffs before injuries hit Rose, Vince and Marshall and werent they only like one game out of the playoffs.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> Just for this stupid comment can you please tell me how many assists Kidd gets to Vince in a game since you said he spoonfeeds him.


Well, I hate to use stats because they are hardly the end all be all, but since you asked:
http://www.82games.com/feeders.htm




> Genius last year the raptors were 5th in the East and geared towards the playoffs before injuries hit Rose, Vince and Marshall and werent they only like one game out of the playoffs.


Carter had a relatively healthy season, Marshall didnt miss any games, and Rose only played 62.. ok, but you could make that argument for almost every other team. the Lakers were settled in at #6 out west, then Kobe got hurt and it went downhill, same situation. The poster I quoted said that Tmac wasn't int he playoffs until he got better palyers around him, and that Kobe wasn't in the playoffs now. Last season, Carter wasn't in the playoffs either, so its not exactly a great argument. The Raptors had health issues, but look, so do the Lakers and last years Magic.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

bohemian said:


> Honestly, you think LeBron deserves to be on the 1st team while his team is likely to miss the playoffs?
> 
> AI has arguably his most productive season, his stats are amazing (almost 31ppg and 8apg). And his team have more wins than the Cavs. Tell me what is your argument that LeBron should go first while AI second?
> 
> ...


That was Marc Stein's choices, not mine.

IMO Tmac should be on first team and not Lebron.


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

Hbwoy said:


> Just for this stupid comment can you please tell me how many assists Kidd gets to Vince in a game since you said he spoonfeeds him.
> 
> 
> 
> Genius last year the raptors were 5th in the East and geared towards the playoffs before injuries hit Rose, Vince and Marshall and werent they only like one game out of the playoffs.


wow... hbwoy just got burned by Drewbs.... Vince is top ten in relying on someone else to score :clap:


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

farhan007 said:


> wow... hbwoy just got burned by Drewbs.... Vince is top ten in relying on someone else to score :clap:


Of course he is, stats aren't even needed to see that. Anyone with eyes can see Kidd spoonfeeding Carter for open jumpshots and easy inside baskets.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

> Of course he is, stats aren't even needed to see that. Anyone with eyes can see Kidd spoonfeeding Carter for open jumpshots and easy inside baskets.


So basically what your saying is Kidd is the one that should be credited with Vince's scoring prowess. Here's an easy question was Kidd playing with Vince when he averaged 27ppg for the Raps. Did you also know amongst active players Vince is third with the highest ppg, oh wait a min maybe its cuz he started playing with Kidd 3/4 of this season


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Hbwoy said:


> So basically what your saying is Kidd is the one that should be credited with Vince's scoring prowess. Here's an easy question was Kidd playing with Vince when he averaged 27ppg for the Raps. Did you also know amongst active players Vince is third with the highest ppg, oh wait a min maybe its cuz he started playing with Kidd 3/4 of this season


Did I say that? No, I didn't say anything about Vince's ability to score, I'm talking about how Vince has been on the Nets, where Kidd has been spoonfeeding him for easy baskets. Please tell me where I ever said or even implied that Carter didn't have the ability to score without someone like Kidd.


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## crimsonice (Feb 27, 2003)

Drewbs said:


> Did I say that? No, I didn't say anything about Vince's ability to score, I'm talking about how Vince has been on the Nets, where Kidd has been spoonfeeding him for easy baskets. Please tell me where I ever said or even implied that Carter didn't have the ability to score without someone like Kidd.


Spoonfeeding him for easy baskets? If you have watched any of the nets games, Kidd usually dishes it off to Vince and Vince goes ISO most of the time.

I think Kidd pushes Vince more than anything, and that's all Vince needed. Is Vince a leader? Nope... neither is Tmac... but they are great players.


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

crimsonice said:


> Spoonfeeding him for easy baskets? If you have watched any of the nets games, Kidd usually dishes it off to Vince and Vince goes ISO most of the time.
> 
> I think Kidd pushes Vince more than anything, and that's all Vince needed. Is Vince a leader? Nope... neither is Tmac... but they are great players.


t-mac is undoubtably a HUGE leader on the team...
he has been realy vocal on the court and many rocket fans saw him yell at teamates for not being agressive enough... plus unlike Vince he creates almost all his shots and he also is the sole playmaker...
t-mac is a leader


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

crimsonice said:


> Spoonfeeding him for easy baskets? If you have watched any of the nets games, Kidd usually dishes it off to Vince and Vince goes ISO most of the time.
> 
> I think Kidd pushes Vince more than anything, and that's all Vince needed. Is Vince a leader? Nope... neither is Tmac... but they are great players.


Yes in fact I have watched Nets games this season. Yes, sometimes Kidd does give it to Carter to go iso, but not for most of the time, Carter's main offense has come off Kidd's feeds whether hes throwing a lob on the break, or passing it off for a quick catch and shoot. I am not knocking Vince's ability, Carter is taking advantage of having Kidd on his team. Let Kidd create, it makes the game easier. It would be dumb to put Carter in the same role that Kobe or Tmac are in where they have to do everything, he has a competant PG to play with.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

**** who cares, but one question for all of you who hates vince
who got his team into a playoff today and was hurt too?

i know admit it people, its vince carter he single handidly got his team to the playoff. get over it who's better?

VInce (oh and i think he's getting consideration for nba 2nd team and MVP)
Tmac 
kobe

so please dont hate give this man his props okay


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

I'm not quite sure if your joking or not, so I'll choose not to respond to this...


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Drewbs said:


> I'm not quite sure if your joking or not, so I'll choose not to respond to this...


I just have a question to ask you? Jason Kidd is good at penerating and kick the ball back out for assist?

And does Kobe and T-Mac have the catch and shoot shot like Carter and Jordan in his mid 90s?

Dont just say Vince is benifiting from Jason Kidd, Because those half court passing for catch and shoot shot was well done by Alvin Willams when Carter was younger, Mark Jackson back then. In the NBA level, those easy passes to open men off screens could be done by any NBA starting PG. Tinsley could do those, Eric Snow could do those. The reason Carter was playing what he is playing right now because Jason Kidd has the total defer mentality where Alvin Williams didnt have, Chris Child didnt have, and Alston never have as well. Jason Kidd does have playing defense, and hustle for loose balls and etc.

Jason Kidd creates easy open looks for Carter in transition but Carter allowed Kidd to dominate the ballas well. Ask James, ask T-mac if they arent allow to handle the ball as much in transition, and not allow to use any pick and roll, and could only score in the highpost area and as well do not allow to "Wait how the defense create" be a decoy, T-mac and James would be siffering big time as well.

Kid, dont think you know a lot, but I will destroy anyone who thinks he knows the game but he isnt!


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

The ****? :laugh:


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

John said:


> I just have a question to ask you? Jason Kidd is good at penerating and kick the ball back out for assist?
> 
> And does Kobe and T-Mac have the catch and shoot shot like Carter and Jordan in his mid 90s?
> 
> ...


That is all I noted. I didn't say anything about Carter's ability to create his own offense, I said that Kidd is the main facilitator and allows Carter to play off him rather than what other wings like Kobe, Tmac or Lebron do when they overhandle the ball in response to Air Fly's post which ignored that while in NJ, Kidd has been a large part of Carter's offense.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Drewbs said:


> That is all I noted. I didn't say anything about Carter's ability to create his own offense, I said that Kidd is the main facilitator and allows Carter to play off him rather than what other wings like Kobe, Tmac or Lebron do when they overhandle the ball in response to Air Fly's post which ignored that while in NJ, Kidd has been a large part of Carter's offense.


You still dont get what I am saying. Kobe is fine, but T-mac or James cant play off the ball. And both guys cant score without using the whole court. That's why Brown benched James in the olympic.

In JVG's offense, Jeff asked T-Mac to be a pure scorer and feeds off Yao but he failed to do so in the early season and then went back to the pick and roll plays. He did that when he was 21 years old, and he is still doing it at the age of 25.

James was better interms of knowing that he has to play off the ball, and trying to play as an legit off guard coming off screens hoisting quick shots but he cant do it consistenltly and failed to do so as a threat like Carter's and Jordan's. And I am saying James or T-mac team up with Kidd will either hurt James or T-Mac's games or Jason Kidd.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

John said:


> You still dont get what I am saying. Kobe is fine, but T-mac or James cant play off the ball. And both guys cant score without using the whole court. That's why Brown benched James in the olympic.
> 
> In JVG's offense, Jeff asked T-Mac to be a pure scorer and feeds off Yao but he failed to do so in the early season and then went back to the pick and roll plays. He did that when he was 21 years old, and he is still doing it at the age of 25.
> 
> James was better interms of knowing that he has to play off the ball, and trying to play as an legit off guard coming off screens hoisting quick shots but he cant do it consistenltly and failed to do so as a threat like Carter's and Jordan's. And I am saying James or T-mac team up with Kidd will either hurt James or T-Mac's games or Jason Kidd.


Teaming up with Kidd could possibly hurt Tmac or Lebron's game because they do so much scoring with the ball in their hands, and *its to Carter's advantage* that he has a respectable catch and shoot game where Tmac and Lebron at this point, have to dominate the ball and shoot or drive in transition or using screens and rolls to get consistent points. Carter doesn't play the same style of basketball and in NJ he can come off screens and score off Kidd feeds. Because Carter can score consistently that way, having a PG like Kidd who will defer to him for points places him differently in terms of being someone who essentially carries the entire offense, for better or worse, like James or Tmac does. Hes a player who can, but doesn't have to. Kobe is different, he does have game off the ball, but he ****s around too much with the ball in his hand rather than go to it as consistently as Carter, which is why I mentioned him.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

> he has been realy vocal on the court and many rocket fans saw him yell at teamates for not being agressive enough... plus unlike Vince he creates almost all his shots and he also is the sole playmaker...


Dont make dumb comments, Vince doesnt create most of his shots. Umm Isos, halfcourt offense who do you think helps him in this situations. And have watched quite a lot of rocket games and yet never seen one where T-mac actually corralled his teammates. I am knocking his leadership qualities no, but some players just do it by example and not by their emotions.
Whoever says Vince isnt a leader must not have been watching his games, its easy to put someone in a box and not expect them to ever shed that label. Every single game for the nets this season, Vince has gone out and competed as hard as he could. He is the main reason why they are even in the playoffs, go ask L. Frank and the other nets if Vince is a leader or not. Kidd is undoubtedly their leader but Vince as also taken up a leadership role. You dont have to scream and shout and yell to be a leader, how far did that get KG this year. Vince is leading by example.



> "Anybody who talks about Vince not having heart is showing their ignorance," said Best. "If you don't see it, that's on you. To the people who watch him play every night, he's all about heart. He cares, he plays his tail off every night. He put us on his back, night in and night out, he and Jason."


And thats a quote from one of his teammates to show his competitiveness


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Drewbs said:


> Teaming up with Kidd could possibly hurt Tmac or Lebron's game because they do so much scoring with the ball in their hands, and *its to Carter's advantage* that he has a respectable catch and shoot game where Tmac and Lebron at this point, have to dominate the ball and shoot or drive in transition or using screens and rolls to get consistent points. Carter doesn't play the same style of basketball and in NJ he can come off screens and score off Kidd feeds. Because Carter can score consistently that way, having a PG like Kidd who will defer to him for points places him differently in terms of being someone who essentially carries the entire offense, for better or worse, like James or Tmac does. Hes a player who can, but doesn't have to. Kobe is different, he does have game off the ball, but he ****s around too much with the ball in his hand rather than go to it as consistently as Carter, which is why I mentioned him.


If u understand it, the problems with james and T-mac is that it's hard to add another quality player on their team to win a championship. They can add "Quality finisher" but that's not going to win you a championship. Just look at Yao who would be dropping over 20+ a game but forced to play liek a role player. LMAO!


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

Drewbs said:


> Teaming up with Kidd could possibly hurt Tmac or Lebron's game because they do so much scoring with the ball in their hands, and *its to Carter's advantage* that he has a respectable catch and shoot game where Tmac and Lebron at this point, have to dominate the ball and shoot or drive in transition or using screens and rolls to get consistent points. Carter doesn't play the same style of basketball and in NJ he can come off screens and score off Kidd feeds. Because Carter can score consistently that way, having a PG like Kidd who will defer to him for points places him differently in terms of being someone who essentially carries the entire offense, for better or worse, like James or Tmac does. Hes a player who can, but doesn't have to. Kobe is different, he does have game off the ball, but he ****s around too much with the ball in his hand rather than go to it as consistently as Carter, which is why I mentioned him.


ANd I Dont like the way you say it is to *Carter's advantage*. It's an unquie talent or repitore that only Jordan and Carter had along with their athelticism and one on one ability. You acted like it was just another guy benifit from some point guard.

No, name me a perimeter player who can dominate the game with both on the ball and off the ball oftensively? Only Jordan and Carter could.

Off the ball players: Ray Allen, Peja, Reggie Miller.
On the ball players: Lebron James, T-mac and etc.

But no players besides Carter in this league can dominate the game both playing with the ball and playing off the ball.

Kobe is the closest but he still doesnt have any sort of off the ball game to prdouce a heathly productive season. You cant play with the ball for the entire 82 games. In your first couple of seasons, YES, but not in your 8th, 9th , 10th season in the league.


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

John said:


> ANd I Dont like the way you say it is to *Carter's advantage*.
> 
> No, name me a perimeter player who can dominate the game with both on the ball and off the ball oftensively? Only Jordan and Carter could.


 :laugh:


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