# Bucher on ESPN: Bulls might be destination for Kobe?



## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Supposedly Kobe is fed up with the current phase of the Lakers and is sort of demanding Jerry West return to rebuild. Kobe says if there isn't going to be a winner in LA, might as well trade him away. Bucher says the Bulls would be a likely destination (young talent, trade assets).

Man. No way I want Kobe on our team. He's a cancer IMHO. I'm sure there will be articles about this.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Kobe and Paxson, not a good fit. Not really a good idea to have all of your money tied into two players, (Ben and Kobe).


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Yeah, Kobe is definitely coming to the Bulls if he gets traded.

We'd end up keeping Gordon/Deng imho.

This works out great, since Kobe can handle the rock perfectly fine.

We'd be looking at:

Kirk Hinrich 11 M (5.5)
Andres Nocioni 9 M (4.5) frontloaded
Tyrus Thomas 3.5M
Viktar Khryapa 1.9 M 

for 

Kobe Bryant

Then your looking at a guy like Joakim Noah in the draft.

PG-Kobe Bryant
SG-Ben Gordon
SF-Luol Deng
PF-Joakim Noah
C- Ben Wallace
6th- Thabo Sefolosha
BN- Chris Duhon
BN- Adrian Griffin

You have a lot of building to do. Go after one of the bigmen for the MLE, like Mikki Moore, Chris Webber, or Anderson Varejao. (Webber as the primary target IMHO)

Then, if Billups bolts Detroit in free agency, a Chris Duhon, PJ Brown (2 year contract ST for 2 years/14 million), 2008 pick, for Rasheed Wallace becomes possible.

Detroit would save 9 million with PJ/Duhon instead of Wallace there.

That'd give us:

PG-Kobe Bryant/Thabo Sefolosha
SG-Ben Gordon/Thabo Sefolosha
SF-Luol Deng/Thabo Sefolosha
PF-Rasheed Wallace/Chris Webber
C- Ben Wallace/Joakim Noah

Git R' Done Pax!


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

Link?

Kobe's not the ideal character guy, but he is a top 5 player. I don't know what's being asked in return, but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Hell Yes. Do you remember that Reinsdorf and Paxson went to Kobe's house the night before he signed his contract with the Lakers. Kobe was willing to do a Sign and Trade, but the Lakers organization put it this way: 1. Sign with us for the Max 2. Sign with the Clippers or 3. Sign with the Bulls for the MLE.

Well of course you are going to take the money. The two teams that have the assets to get Kobe are us and Boston. We have better talent. The issue is we do not have the contracts to get it done. 

From a contractual standpoint:
Kirk
Ben Wallace 

These are the two we can use. They would not want Wallace's contract. So we would have to include Kirk.

Talent standpoint:
Deng
Gordon
TyTy
Sefo

These are the guys they would look to get.

If we had to work a trade, is it possible to renounce everyone's right this FA to send back less salary to LA? Would it be possible to renounce Noce's right and still have him come back and resign?

Kobe is making 19.5 million next year. Kirk is in line to make 11 exactly. We need to ship out a total of 14.625 million to make a deal work within the 125% rule. Kirk and Gordon would get it done. Throw in a future first if needed. 

Duhon and Thabo run the point. Keep the 9th pick if you can.

This is interesting.

What exactly did Bucher say?


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I forgot. Kirk will be BYC.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

while i won't buy into the rumor (just yet) come draft day, in my mind i can see where a kobe acquisition could be good for all parties concerned and here's why;

for all of the hate spewed toward his off courts exploits, he is undeniably the most talented player in the game, and may be one of its hardest workers. for him to view himself on the bulls, i believe the respect factor between pax/skiles/deng/noc/wallace and himself would allow kobe to just be himself, a natural leader, and *allow himself *to be an easy fit for the the two.

kobe can just do what he does, score; sure he'll lead, but at this point i think the bulls have shown a great improvement in their mental approach to the game, and as such kobe won't need to be the "be all end all" to everything the team's trying to do offensively or defensively.

he's an excellent defender; deserved or not, just watching him play gives me the belief he'd have no trouble being a doberman kind of defender in the bull scheme, as well as possibly other defenders in deng and hinrich (given who may be included) as great defenders as well.

the east is right there for several teams, and kobe is the kind of offensive talent you can post, iso, or run baseline cuts back and forth to take advantage of his immense scoring ability.


also, for my money i don't buy into the "cancer" stuff because, from a leadership standpoint, you want your so called "best players" to lead by example,e.g. be the hardest worker. kobe called shaq out on that and shaq didn't like it. could kobe have made it work? probably, but at the end of the day, is all the BS really worth it? the lakers commited to him, he committed to them, but they haven't held up their end of the deal in his mind, therefore, by calling such a proud, high profile organization out, so to speak, he's exercising his clout in such a way to create some demand. chicago's a potential contender, with a talent of his level.


i have no idea who should be involved or moved, the spectrum of who's and the associated $$ is more than i care to concern my opinion with, but hasta la vista to whomever best deemed to get a new start in LA. kobe's in his prime, and with wallace's window not the biggest it again makes some sense.

it's not as far fetched as it may seem; there was rumor kobe and pax hit it off before he ultimately re-upped with the lakers, so if it happened i'd believe pax/skiles were the master salesmen, and i also that kobe would have forced a trade in which multiple players sent from the bulls would signal a total rebuilding mode for the lakers.


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## knickstorm (Jun 22, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> Yeah, Kobe is definitely coming to the Bulls if he gets traded.
> 
> We'd end up keeping Gordon/Deng imho.
> 
> ...


no way kobe plays the point, ben gordon better get ready to bring the ball up consistently if thats the trade


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

If there is a package that can get you Kobe and still keep enough guys to be a championship contender, you do it. Maybe MikeDC or Sham can answer this, but if we renounce the rights of Noce and other FAs that we will have, could we use the extra capspace as an asset -- where we could send back less salaray (players) to land Kobe? Would we still be able to sign Noce but without the ability to match an offer?

If I'm getting Kobe, the first person I'm sending away is Ben Gordon. The three guys I'd dream of keeping would be Deng, Tyrus, and Kirk. But you gotta give talent to receive it. 

Due to the lack of a large expiring, I don't know trade scenario you can come up with where you retain most of your young players to be a contender for several years.

S&T Noce with BG7, Thabo, and Future 1st. But would that be enough salary wise? We would need to come close to 15 million dollar in deals. Noce would likely be BYC.


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## dsouljah9 (Jul 9, 2002)

I'd love to get Kobe as long as we don't give up Deng. I'd give them Gordon, Nocioni, Thomas, Khryapa both second rounders and next year's #1 for Bryant.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

dsouljah9 said:


> I'd love to get Kobe as long as we don't give up Deng. I'd give them Gordon, Nocioni, Thomas, Khryapa both second rounders and next year's #1 for Bryant.


My two untouchables are TyTy and Luol. Every one else can be had for Kobe. 

Ideally for me:
Noce
Ben
Thabo
Viktor
Maybe a future pick if absolutely needed. But I wouldn't give it just like that.

The key to this is matching contracts and Kobe wanting to come here. Thats a lot better than the deal Philly got for AI.

Kirk/Du
Kobe/MLE
Deng/Griff
Tyrus/Malik
Ben/Hawes/PJ


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

theanimal23 said:


> If there is a package that can get you Kobe and still keep enough guys to be a championship contender, you do it. Maybe MikeDC or Sham can answer this, but if we renounce the rights of Noce and other FAs that we will have, could we use the extra capspace as an asset -- where we could send back less salaray (players) to land Kobe? Would we still be able to sign Noce but without the ability to match an offer?
> 
> If I'm getting Kobe, the first person I'm sending away is Ben Gordon. The three guys I'd dream of keeping would be Deng, Tyrus, and Kirk. But you gotta give talent to receive it.
> 
> ...


We lose either way. We can renounce Noc, and just trade like Kirk/Tyrus, but then we'd only have like 4 million in capspace. Since we renounced Nocioni, we would have been under the cap, thus forfeiting our MLE. Therefore we'd have less than the MLE to offer Nocioni.

Now not sure why'd you dream of keeping Kirk. You have to keep Ben Gordon. Ben Gordon/Kobe/Luol would be the best 3 man tandem in the league. If Tyrus doesn't develop right (good possibility, big quesiton mark on his conditioning and work ethic), then we have basically just made ourselves the Lakers of the East, and will be bounced by Cleveland every year. Kobe/Luol/Ben could go off and average like 75 points between them. In addition, Kobe has those days where he just disappears offensively, and to have an offensive talent like Ben around (since Luol also has those days), to take command of the offense, would be better than an average point guard.

I'd ship Kirk/Tyrus/Noc out. Build around Ben/Kobe/Luol. Ben Wallace, the rookie, and the MLE would make up the frontcourt.

I'm not too fond of Kirk's work ethic. (its not bad, just not as good as our other players).

Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Thabo Sefolosha, and Kobe Bryant has to be one of the hardest working groups. If they're all in a gym together, all summer, working on their games, you have to think all 3 of our guys would get immensely better with a guy like Kobe in there challenging them to compete. 

Maybe Kobe can call out Ben Wallace enough, so he is properly conditioned this year. (Did anyone else notice that Wallace's muscles looked.....deflated).


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## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

Are you guys crazy? Kobe not a character guy? He's EXACTLY like MJ. Sick obsession type motivation to win, and be the best. Doesn't except ****ty play from teammates, and always give 100% out on the floor. People bring up Shaq but Shaq has never been too motivated, or really worked hard. MJ wouldn't of put up with Shaq either. If Shaq was motivated like Kobe they'd stil lbe winning titles to this day. If Kobe really is avialable I'd do whatever to get him.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Carbo04 said:


> Are you guys crazy? Kobe not a character guy? He's EXACTLY like MJ. Sick obsession type motivation to win, and be the best. Doesn't except ****ty play from teammates, and always give 100% out on the floor. People bring up Shaq but Shaq has never been too motivated, or really worked hard. MJ wouldn't of put up with Shaq either. If Shaq was motivated like Kobe they'd stil lbe winning titles to this day. If Kobe really is avialable I'd do whatever to get him.


Well, Ben Gordon also has that same type of motivation, and has produced with good results.

But they also want to ship him out of town for Mike Conley Jr.

Bascially if your a guard not named Kirk Hinrich, most posters don't want you on this team.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> Bascially if your a guard not named Kirk Hinrich, most posters don't want you on this team.


This....isn't true.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

I am laughing at any of you who want Kobe, but not Zach Randolph because of his charcater. Kobe was accused of Rape, and even though he was not found guilty, at the least he is an adulterer. 


He's also not a great locker room guy.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Kobe Bryant is the best basketball player in the world. And he's in his prime. If the Bulls can add this guy to their team they should do what they can to get it done.

I don't believe he raped anyone. Certainly not the girl who publically accused him.
If being unfaithful to ones wife makes a player ineligible to be on the Bulls, get ready to dump a lot of good players.

Ben Wallace, Ben Gordon and a pick or two (2008 &/or 2010) would be enough to match salaries for Kobe.

Leaves us a little thin at center. Gotta hope the 2007 1st round pick can play.

Hinrich/Duhon
Bryant/Sefolosha
Deng/Nocioni
Thomas/Nocioni
Brown/Noah/Allen/MLE free agent


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

mediocre man said:


> I am laughing at any of you who want Kobe, but not Zach Randolph because of his charcater. Kobe was accused of Rape, and even though he was not found guilty, at the least he is an adulterer.
> 
> 
> He's also not a great locker room guy.


An adulterer on an NBA roster? Perish the thought! Next you'll be telling me we have card cheats and marajuana smokers running up and down NBA hardwood. Step in, Commissoner Stern!


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

I live in So Cal.............

We aren't getting Kobe for anything less than two of the three core (Gordon, Deng, Hirnich) and a boat load of picks.

Mitch Kupchak already choked away the Shaq situation. People have been calling for his job since then and now Kobe's calling for it too. So, IF the Bulls or any other team could get Kobe, they are gonna pay through the nose.

That being said, Give me Kobe, Deng, TT or Thabo and this years center pick.

They can have Gordon, Hinrich, two firsts and one of Thabo or TT.

I think you can win and compete for champioinship with Kobe, Deng, Wallace, TT and the Center pick. Other players will gladly take the MLE and LLE to play with that squad.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

chifaninca said:


> I live in So Cal.............
> 
> We aren't getting Kobe for anything less than two of the three core (Gordon, Deng, Hirnich) and a boat load of picks.


Well, then the price is too high. Kupchak can see how long he keeps his job, or how much he enjoys having it, if Kobe goes on a sit-down pouting strike and lashes out at management on a repeated basis.

Nobody tries to keep a player from moving who really wants to move. It's stupid and counterproductive.
Gasol changed his mind. If he hadn't he'd be moved this summer.
If Kobe demands to be traded, he'll be moved -- for whatever the highest bidder offers.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Kirk Hinrich = Lamar Odom
Andres Nocioni = Caron Butler
Tyrus Thomas >>>> Draft Pick
Viktar Khryapa >>>>> Brian Grant (signficantly smaller contract filler)

Get Hirnich off my Bulls team, and put Kobe on there Pax!


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Mebarak said:


> Kirk Hinrich = Lamar Odom
> Andres Nocioni = Caron Butler
> Tyrus Thomas >>>> Draft Pick
> Viktar Khryapa >>>>> Brian Grant (signficantly smaller contract filler)
> ...


Hinrich is BYC. You'll have to wait a year to get rid of him by trade.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> Kirk Hinrich = Lamar Odom
> Andres Nocioni = Caron Butler
> Tyrus Thomas >>>> Draft Pick
> Viktar Khryapa >>>>> Brian Grant (signficantly smaller contract filler)
> ...


The Lakers aren't trading an aging, overweight center. They are trading the best player in the league. The situations are entirely different and the trade offers shouldn't be comparable. Propose accordingly.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

McBulls said:


> Hinrich is BYC. You'll have to wait a year to get rid of him by trade.


Kirk Hinrich 11 Million 
Andres Nocioni 9 million (frontloaded 37 million over 5 years)
Tyrus Thomas 3.5 million
Viktar Khryapa 1.9 million

So Nocioni are both BYC.

Kobe is due 19.5 million. 

[ (11/2 + 9/2 + 3.5 + 1.9) * 1.25 ] +.1 - 19.5 = -.15

So Paxson had to give up 150,000 more to get this trade done.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

I'd definetly give up Hinrich, Gordon, Noch and a future 1st. That's my initial bid.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

johnston797 said:


> I'd definetly give up Hinrich, Gordon, Noch and a future 1st. That's my initial bid.


You start with Tyrus, Hinrich, and PJ Brown as the core, but then switch in Nocioni to get the actual deal done.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

mediocre man said:


> I am laughing at any of you who want Kobe, but not Zach Randolph because of his charcater. Kobe was accused of Rape, and even though he was not found guilty, at the least he is an adulterer.
> 
> 
> He's also not a great locker room guy.


Funny, I was thinking the opposite. Alot of people want Randolph at his 4 yrs, $55M remaining, but wouldn't want Kobe who is arguably the best player in the league? Kobe & Big Ben would be a suitable duo to spend most of your salary cap on, IMO. Randolph and Ben, not so much.

For Kobe, I'd give up 2 of our top 4 talents (Gordon, Deng, Hinrich, Tyrus) AND throw in our #9 draft pick. If Kobe were for sale, which I don't totally believe, then that would be a tough offer to beat. 

Hypothetically, let's say we give up Gordon, Deng, and the #9 pick (very generous, IMO). Our lineup becomes Hinrich, Kobe, Nocioni, Tyrus, and Wallace. And we still have Duhon and Sefolosha to backup the guard spots. Khryapa and Griff would finally get some burn. Still need a big guy or two though.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Premier said:


> The Lakers aren't trading an aging, overweight center. They are trading the best player in the league. The situations are entirely different and the trade offers shouldn't be comparable. Propose accordingly.


The aging overweight center has another ring. How many more did Kobe pick up?

If anything, Mebarak's offer is too generous.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

My untouchables: Deng and Tyrus. Add Kirk to this list, as he and Kobe would be an incredible backcourt. 

A deal can be done. LAL cannot get too greedy if Kobe demands a trade and chooses his destination. He has a no-trade clause. 

Focal point of our trade: Ben Gordon. They get a young guy who can probably average 26 ppg easily out West if given freedom to do so. 

If they really want another player, its going to be Thabo. There are there two assets. But I would try Duhon and Viktor. These two including Gordon gives you close to 10 million in outgoing trade value. We still have about 5 million to add (Gordon, Du, Vik). 

Now if it is possible to have contracts adjusted anyway you would like (a la NFL), it would be nice to have Noce be signed to a 3 year deal worth 15-18 million but a 1st year salary of 10 million. BYC = Outgoing of 5 million. There is our 15 million. 

Noce 
Gordon 
Duhon 
Viktor 

Solid SF for their bench, a PG who would likely start on their team, and Ben Gordon. If they want more, I'd throw in a 2009 1st. By then we will be competing for a ring with this years pick (Which I do not give up at all), an MLE signing, and internal growth.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

yodurk said:


> For Kobe, I'd give up 2 of our top 4 talents (Gordon, Deng, Hinrich, Tyrus) AND throw in our #9 draft pick. If Kobe were for sale, which I don't totally believe, then that would be a tough offer to beat.


Problem is that you have to match Kobe's salary. Can't do that even if you traded all 4 of the players you mention.


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## SoCalfan21 (Jul 19, 2004)

lougehrig said:


> Supposedly Kobe is fed up with the current phase of the Lakers and is sort of demanding Jerry West return to rebuild. Kobe says if there isn't going to be a winner in LA, might as well trade him away. Bucher says the Bulls would be a likely destination (young talent, trade assets).
> 
> Man. No way I want Kobe on our team. He's a cancer IMHO. I'm sure there will be articles about this.


DID YOU REALLY SAY KOBE IS A CANCER? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA


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## tweedy (Apr 4, 2005)

Of the three core players, Hinrich is the most valuable next to Kobe. You can throw all kinds of hyperbolical praise at that backcourt. If you manage to hang onto Tyrus and Wallace too, it's a coup for the Bulls. The Bulls are in a good enough position for the future as it is. But if you're pining for the fortifying, big name trade, this is it. And Kobe is undoubtedly a "Pax guy."


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Not saying if I would or wouldn't, but if it was essentially Deng and Gordon for Kobe -- Yes or No? Would you do it?


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

tweedy said:


> Of the three core players, Hinrich is the most valuable next to Kobe. You can throw all kinds of hyperbolical praise at that backcourt. If you manage to hang onto Tyrus and Wallace too, it's a coup for the Bulls. The Bulls are in a good enough position for the future as it is. But if you're pining for the fortifying, big name trade, this is it. And Kobe is undoubtedly a "Pax guy."


How is Hinrich more valuable next to Kobe than Deng/Gordon.

Kobe to Gordon, for three! or Kobe to Deng, Deng hits the 18 foot jumper. Sounds a lot better to me than Kobe, to Hinrich, who misses, Curry the rebound.

I definitely would pass on a Gordon + Deng trade. I'm not trading either Gordon/Deng. They're our two best players. We're not the ones forcing a trade. Our team has the better record by 7 games. Thats a lot. We're on the uprise, they're on the down. 

You trade an assortment of secondary players Hinrich, Nocioni, and Wallace. And undeveloped potential: Tyrus Thomas, Thabo Sefolosha.

So the logical trade, that doesn't screw them over, would be Hinrich, a resigned NOcioni, Tyrus Thomas, and Chris Duhon. The contracts will work, bada bing, bada boom. 

Kobe has a no trade clause, so he could basically force the Lakers to zero in on us, and that would give us more leverage on keeping both Deng and Gordon (our two best players, and this isn't even up for debate).


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

I would be trying my hardest to keep this to a one core player trade, adding Thabo, future picks, even including this years. After all, he is the one forcing the issue, and hopefully he resorts to naming his destination too ( believe he has a no trade clause so Cupcake can't try any other deals ).

It may not be fair value, but it's a typical trade.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

theanimal23 said:


> Not saying if I would or wouldn't, but if it was essentially Deng and Gordon for Kobe -- Yes or No? Would you do it?


 You need to add another $8-9 million from somewhere. Add Sweets (3.7 million) and you still need to find $5 million from somewhere (say Khryapa and Duhon).

So, Deng+Gordon+Sweetney+Khryapa+Duhon plus 2008 1st and 2007 2nd for Bryant.

I love Deng & Gordon and like Duhon too, but...

Hinrich/MLE free agent
Bryant/Sefolosha
Nocioni/Sefolosha/Bryant
Thomas/Nocioni/Allen
Wallace/Brown/2007 pick

Yeah, that team would do a lot of winning.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

McBulls said:


> You need to add another $8-9 million from somewhere. Add Sweets (3.7 million) and you still need to find $5 million from somewhere (say Khryapa and Duhon).
> 
> So, Deng+Gordon+Sweetney+Khryapa+Duhon plus 2008 1st and 2007 2nd for Bryant.
> 
> ...


That team only does winning if Tyrus develops good....if not, then you got a stinker right there.

While

Kobe Bryant/Thabo Sefolosha
Ben Gordon/Thabo Sefolosha
Luol Deng/Thabo Sefolosha
MLE/Joakim Noah
Ben Wallace/Joakim Noah

Will be a 54+ win team regardless.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Would you really give up Tyrus and take Noah? Why not just give up the 9th pick.


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## tweedy (Apr 4, 2005)

It's certainly debatable. I love all three of the core. To answer theanimal's question, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I'd give up any two of the three core guys, actually. Chicago and the Eastern Conference is a great situation for the league's best player. Kobe would be expected to lead the team to the finals every year. I'm not saying it would necessarily work out well, but if Kobe really wants out of L.A., Chicago would pose the most favorable and pressure-filled situation.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Mebarak said:


> Kirk Hinrich = Lamar Odom
> Andres Nocioni = Caron Butler
> Tyrus Thomas >>>> Draft Pick
> Viktar Khryapa >>>>> Brian Grant (signficantly smaller contract filler)
> ...


Nocioni isnt as good as Caron Butler.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Mebarak said:


> That team only does winning if Tyrus develops good....if not, then you got a stinker right there.
> 
> While
> 
> ...


The team has no point guard. I know you want to trade Hinrich, but at least keep Duhon around to pass the ball, set up plays and bring the ball up court. Kobe has other things to do, and Gordon and Thalbo can't do that job adequately.

Frankly Gordon is redundant on this team. You'd end up trading him for a point guard.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

tweedy said:


> It's certainly debatable. *I love all three of the core. To answer theanimal's question, I'd do it in a heartbeat.* I'd give up any two of the three core guys, actually. Chicago and the Eastern Conference is a great situation for the league's best player. Kobe would be expected to lead the team to the finals every year. I'm not saying it would necessarily work out well, but if Kobe really wants out of L.A., Chicago would pose the most favorable and pressure-filled situation.


I think John Paxson does too. 

You end up with:
Kirk/Du
Kobe/Griff
Noce/MLE
Tyrus/Malik
Wallace/Hawes/PJ

We'll see how much people resign for this year -- Rashard, GWallace, etc. The teams with capspace are Orlando, Milwaukee, Atlanta, and Charlotte. 

Atlanta is not going for a SF. Milwaukee likely isn't. 

Orlando would have to renounce Darko's rights to offer one of those guys big time money. Charlotte will not outbid themselves. 

I would do the trade and go hard with the MLE to get Gerald Wallace. He probably will get more though.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

McBulls said:


> The team has no point guard. I know you want to trade Hinrich, but at least keep Duhon around to pass the ball, set up plays and bring the ball up court. Kobe has other things to do, and Gordon and Thalbo can't do that job adequately.
> 
> Frankly Gordon is redundant on this team. You'd end up trading him for a point guard.


I like Gordon as much as I like the rest of the core. But he cannot play point. He *might* have in college, but man, he keeps falling down and he isn't a superb decision maker. While Gordon hanging at the 3pt line with Kobe sounds unbelievable in theory, I think the Kirk-Kobe tandem would be unreal. The way I'm looking at the deal, we are upgrading Gordon to Kobe.

I would love to find a way to keep Deng if they wanted Deng and Gordon, and they likely will. 

I'd offer Thabo, 2009 draft pick, and maybe another if I had too.

Thats 3-4 pieces.


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## tweedy (Apr 4, 2005)

theanimal23 said:


> We'll see how much people resign for this year -- Rashard, GWallace, etc. The teams with capspace are Orlando, Milwaukee, Atlanta, and Charlotte.
> 
> Atlanta is not going for a SF. Milwaukee likely isn't.
> 
> ...


Maybe there'd be a key free agent who would take less to play with Kobe.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

I'd consider a trade of Gordon, Hinrich, and Nocioni in a deal for Kobe.

That'd leave us with:
PG Duhon
SG Kobe
C Wallace
SF Deng
PF draft pick or Thomas

Thabo subs at SF and G

LA might take PJ as S&T for his new expiring contract. Otherwise we probably have to deal several more players as filler (Viktor, Griffin, Barret, and maybe another player).

EDIT:

Lakers post trade:
PG Hinrich
SG Gordon/Smush 
C Bynum
PF Odom
SF Nocioni

With Walton, Farmar, and Kwame
nine deep


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

You have to consider such a trade. A real go to guy. As long as we are not completly gutted. We keep Wallace and Deng and TT. We can go with that.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

DaBullz said:


> I'd consider a trade of Gordon, Hinrich, and Nocioni in a deal for Kobe.
> 
> That'd leave us with:
> PG Duhon
> ...


Don't forget about Sweetney's contract of 3.7 million that can be included in the trade as filler if the Bulls make him a qualifying offer.

The only thing I don't like about including both Nocioni and Hinrich is that they are both BYC, which makes matching salaries a pain for both teams.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

R-Star said:


> Nocioni isnt as good as Caron Butler.


FYI, Butler was not included in the trade this season. 

The season before he was traded he averaged less than ten points and five rebounds per game while shooting 24% on threes. I'd say Nocioni is clearly better than Butler was then.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

If we have to give up Ben Gordon for Kobe, I'll just pass on this trade. Ben Gordon + a resigned PJ Brown (I think Brown would have to be resigned to about 2 years-40 million) for this to work.

Therefore no go on Gordon.

I'm not going to be trading our top tier players on this team for Kobe, especially since we'll have to give up 2nd tier players to balance out the contracts anyhow.

Therefore, its makes sense to give them a selection of 2nd tier players from this team, and not one of our top two players.

Look at LA. You can call Gordon redundant, but there is a very offense challenged team. Kobe is a weird player, and when he takes one of those days where he only takes 1 shot, Kirk won't be able to deliver.

In addition, I think Kobe will have problems with Kirk's competitive drive and work ethic, so Kirk will probably end up getting traded anyhow.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Looking at the bulls' lineup post trade, they'd have 2 players who can bring offense. I have no issue with Du playing PG next to Kobe, and I do think Kobe is like having 2 scorers in one player/position, making it reasonable to play a PG/defensive specialist.

I don't see Pax parting with Hinrich in any case, and I don't see the Lakers taking anything less than something along the lines I suggested.

EDIT: Meaning, I'm not so sure I'd do the deal.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

First off, I believe Kobe will get his wish and get West abck as the GM. Cupcake has been getting killed in the press and by Jim Buss (owners son).

Secondly, it would likely mean P Jax would not coach the team as he has to have veteran winners capable of a champioinship. This might be a bonus for the Lake show.

Still, I gotta believe they don't do anything less than Deng, Gordon + filler.

Gordon, I'd give up for Kobe without a second thought. Sorry Mebarek, but Gordon does nothing that Kobe does except Score, just with less capability (meaning he doesn't drive/slash or dish the way Kobe does). With Kobe, in the clutch, he makes it or gets the foul called. With Gordon, he palms it, makes wild pass, falls down after bouncing off someonewithout getting the call, or makes the outside Three. Unfortunately, making it occurs less. Kobe never has the string of cold shooting that Gordon does, especially not in the clutch.

Now, Deng, Deng's my guy and it'll break my heart to see him go. However, if he goes, you probably keep TT and Thabo. Deng is the better player, but Thabo and even Nocioni can fill in more than adequately. Deng's the tough one to swallow. 

After that, it's filler and probably a first round pick.

Kobe's worth it for a number of reasons. THough, I still think the Lakers will do whatever Kobe wants to keep him happy.

Still, it's fun to consider.


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## osman (Jul 29, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> If we have to give up Ben Gordon for Kobe, I'll just pass on this trade. Ben Gordon + a resigned PJ Brown (I think Brown would have to be resigned to about 2 years-40 million) for this to work.
> 
> Therefore no go on Gordon.
> 
> ...


You wouldn't trade Gordon for Kobe? lol are you serious?


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## Bullsky (Jun 11, 2006)

oh my god. We need to start a 'Just Say No to Kobe' campaign. Seriously, I don't think I could root for him ever.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

chifaninca said:


> First off, I believe Kobe will get his wish and get West abck as the GM. Cupcake has been getting killed in the press and by Jim Buss (owners son).
> 
> Secondly, it would likely mean P Jax would not coach the team as he has to have veteran winners capable of a champioinship. This might be a bonus for the Lake show.
> 
> ...


As a fellow denizen of Los Angeles, it seems to me more and more apparent that Jim Buss is calling an awful lot of the personnel shots for the Lakers. I think Kupchack is on the way out, but I don't see little Buss ceding power to a dominant personality like Jerry West...


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

you guys are out of your mind? won't trade deng or/and gordon for kobe? that's KOBE Freaking BRYANT we are talking about here. I would easily give up 2 major pieces +1 filler/picks for kobe any day.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

The key to this would be...

1.No Deng
2.No Tyrus

I believe this would work if Nocioni is offered an extension that pays him about 8 million a year and Sweetney is issued his QO.

_Lakers receive:_
Kirk Hinrich
Ben Gordon
Andres Nocioni
Michael Sweetney
Viktor Khryapa

_Bulls receive:_
Kobe Bryant

*Bulls--Before Draft*
PG-Chris Duhon(3.25 million)
SG-Kobe Bryant(19.5 million)
SF-Luol Deng(3.3 million)
PF-Tyrus Thomas(3.5 million)
C-Ben Wallace(15.5 million)

Thabo Sefolosha(PG/SG)(1.8 million)
Adrian Griffin(SG/SF)(1.6 million)
TOTAL: 48.45 million dollars

*DRAFT DAY TRADE*
_76ers receive:_
#9 Pick
#51 Pick

_Bulls receive:_
#12 Pick
#21 Pick

*DRAFT*
#12 Pick-Jeff Green(SF/PF)(Georgetown)
#21 Pick-Aaron Gray(C)(Pittsburgh)
#49 Pick-Demetris Nichols(SF)(Syracuse)

*Bulls-After Draft*
PG-Chris Duhon
SG-Kobe Bryant
SF-Luol Deng
PF-Tyrus Thomas
C-Ben Wallace

Thabo Sefolosha(PG/SG)
Adrian Grffin(SG/SF)
Jeff Green(SF/PF)(1.8 million)

Demetris Nichols(SF)(400,000)
Aaron Gray(C)(1.3 million)
TOTAL: 51.95 million

*Free Agency*
Malik Allen(re-signed for 2 [email protected] million)
Andre Barrett(re-signed for 1 [email protected],000)
Eddie Jones(signed for 2 [email protected] million)

*Bulls Opening Day Roster*
PG-Chris Duhon(3.25 million)
SG-Kobe Bryant(19.5 million)
SF-Luol Deng(3.3 million)
PF-Tyrus Thomas(3.5 million)
C-Ben Wallace(15.5 million)

Thabo Sefolosha(PG/SG)(1.8 million)
Eddie Jones(SG/SF)(750,000)
Jeff Green(SF/PF)(1.8 million)
Malik Allen(PF/C)(2.25 million)

Andre Barrett(PG)(750,000)
Adrian Griffin(SG)(1.6 million)
Demtris Nichols(SF)(440,000)(INACTIVE)
Aaron Gray(C)(1.3 million)
TOTAL: 56.74 million

In order to get the deal done we may have to sacrifice next year's 1st round pick to a team like Charlotte who is under the cap in order to make the BYC stuff work out. Regardless, this is a conservative estimate of 56.74 million that doesn't take into account signing a big man with our MLE instead of Malik Allen. We have a really big man off the bench, a solid bench capable of scoring and playind defense and one of the best starting fives in the league.


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## all_aus (Aug 28, 2005)

stop this now.. kobe will not be a bull. we r lookin for pf a c's okay


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

T.Shock said:


> The key to this would be...
> 
> 1.No Deng
> 2.No Tyrus
> ...


Can you explain the part about Charlotte receiving next years pick? I don't see that in your trade scenario and I do not see how that is integral with the BYC part (Noce).

We have a pretty good team left over. Obviously Gordon is to go in a Kirk trade. The Lakers would want him and we are upgrading his position. Now the Lakers would likely won't another player -- push for Deng, but Pax won't do that. He isn't losing both of your young studs. Sadly, as much as I would love to see a Kirk-Kobe backcourt, the Lakers would push for him. I checked this years FA market, and there is no good UFA PG out on the market. If Bibby opted out, but he isn't.

I would not make the trade down with Philly. We still need an adept big man, and I'd still go with Hawes. 

Now Thabo could play the 1,2, and 3 for us. But we would need to use the MLE to grab another wing player and try to make Thabo strictly a PG/SG. 

Part of me hates these trades because we see these guys grow up into good players from the time they were drafted till now.

My ideal scenario, and I don't think it would happen

Gordon
Noce
Viktor
Thabo
2009 1st if Needed

Kirk/Du
Kobe/Griff
Deng/MLE
Tyrus/Malik
Ben/Hawes/PJ


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Btw, is there anyway we can sign PJ or someone onto our team to a very large 1 year deal and use them as contract filler? I doubt PJ takes the 1 year deal because he'd want security.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

osman said:


> You wouldn't trade Gordon for Kobe? lol are you serious?


If you acquire Kobe, you cannot keep Gordon on the team. They won't mesh well at all. Kobe's alot like Gordon, except he's 4 inches taller (at least) and does everything better. Neither guy can play PG so you're better off keeping Kirk and dumping Gordon. At one point in time Kobe could defend PGs but he's older and slower now and much more effective on players his size. He's also at his best playing off the ball on offense. The Bulls could probably swing a deal for Kobe without giving up Hinrich or Deng but they'd almost certainly have to give up Gordon, Thomas, Nocioni, and several picks. A big contract would have to be included as well. It's a steep price but you are acquiring the best player in the game. His "character issues" are probably due more to his competitive nature than anything else. He hates losing and tends to lash out at teammates when they aren't playing well. Still, he works harder than any player in the league and keeps himself in phenomenal shape. For those reasons he's probably more of a long-term investment than other players his age.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Pinball said:


> If you acquire Kobe, you cannot keep Gordon on the team. They won't mesh well at all. Kobe's alot like Gordon, except he's 4 inches taller (at least) and does everything better. Neither guy can play PG so you're better off keeping Kirk and dumping Gordon. At one point in time Kobe could defend PGs but he's older and slower now and much more effective on players his size. He's also at his best playing off the ball on offense. The Bulls could probably swing a deal for Kobe without giving up Hinrich or Deng but they'd almost certainly have to give up Gordon, Thomas, Nocioni, and several picks. A big contract would have to be included as well. It's a steep price but you are acquiring the best player in the game. His "character issues" are probably due more to his competitive nature than anything else. He hates losing and tends to lash out at teammates when they aren't playing well. Still, he works harder than any player in the league and keeps himself in phenomenal shape. For those reasons he's probably more of a long-term investment than other players his age.


That might be true, but he's got more wear and tear on him that lots of guys who's already broken down. If you add in all the playoff minutes, Kobe's got as much use out of him as guys we think of as only having a couple good years left. He looks like he's slowing to me already.

And to be honest, he'd make me rethink my post in an earlier thread that it's only about winning. I think the guy's a turd and I'd have a hard time rooting for him.

Trade wise, I don't see the logic of giving up Deng or Hinrich to get him, I agree there. Obviously not Wallace either.

We'd be talking about Gordon, Tyrus, and maybe the pick. Maybe asign and trade of PJ as cap fodder to make it work?


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Kobe's going nowhere, and he didn't say he wants to be traded if Jerry West doesn't come to Los Angeles.



> "My feeling on Jerry West is I trust him completely," Bryant said. "I don't want to get into people believing me to be bashing anybody. Mitch is a great guy. All I can go by is what has happened with this team the last two years, and I know Jerry West is a guy who's great at what he does.
> 
> "He wants to win and he wants to win right now. I can roll with that, even if we don't have the complete turnaround we're hoping to have this summer. Just having him back in the nucleus will help."
> 
> *"I would love for him to be a part of this," Bryant said. "But it's not something where I demand he comes here. All I can do is offer my thoughts. I love being a Laker. I want to retire a Laker. I want to fix this thing, or at least help any way I can."*


http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketball/nba/lakers/la-sp-lakers28may28,1,3711739.story?coll=la-headlines-sports-nba-lakers


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

Ben Gordon, Luol Deng and Ben Wallace 

for Kobe Bryant and Andrew Bynum 

*

Bynum
Thomas 
Nocioni
Bryant
Hinrich

bench

Mihm ( MLE free agency )
Smith ( LLE free agency )
Brewer ( #9 pick )
Sefolosha
Duhon

Brown ( resigned for vets minimum )
Khyrappa
Griffin
Haluska( 2nd round )
Taurean Green ( 2nd round ) 

*

Lakers 

*

Wallace 
Odom
Deng
Gordon
Parker

bench


Brown
McRoberts 
Cook
Walton
Vujacic
Farmar
*

Maybe a 2nd round team but good future with depth and young talent


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## souleater (Apr 21, 2007)

book it,kobe will be bull on draft night,recently Stojacovic sid in an interview to a greek radio sttion as my friend from greece told me tht draft night will be historicl,major major mnoves will be made,that what Peja said,beleive it or not,i beleive him,cause he's in the league many years now,he knows sth more than we do


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## souleater (Apr 21, 2007)

it's obvious guys,by the style kobe has,he;s free throw shooting style,his jump shooting style,his dunk style,all are similar with MJ,he wants to be MJ,though he will never be like him,i think deep inside in his mind wnts to come to chicago,to overshadow MJ from bulls fans heart's,to become the new MJ and to prove he's better thatn MJ,i think that's his plan,and i think he will work his butts off to make it happen


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## Salvaged Ship (Jul 10, 2002)

There is no way Paxson is going to give up half the team for Bryant, and no way the Lakers would take anything less than that. They need skilled size like we do. The one position they are set at big time is SG. They are going to take our tiny back court and our small forwards for thier superstar drawing card SG? No way.

We target either Randolph, Gasol, or possibly Garnett (long shot). If the price is too high, Pax will try and draft someone who can fit in and develop while preaching the "improvement and growth from within" mantra. I understand the thinking.

We need to take a risk, but not of epic proportions. I think Randolph is the one guy who may be had at a lesser price, and you are going to need to take a chance on someone with questionable character at some point. As I have said before, 12 choir boys do not usually win the championship. Portland needs a good guard opposite Roy. We have loads of little guards. Offer one of them + Noc. Some filler to match salaries. they would likely consider, seeing Randolph's minutes and subsequent trade value will diminish greatly next season.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Ben Gordon and Luol Deng are our two best players. Kobe is their best player. We had 49 wins. They had 42 wins. We're going to get better regardless, they're probably going to get worse, and fall out of the playoffs. They're star is demanding a trade. Our guys are not. Their guy has a no trade clause that would allow him to decide his destination.

For as much as we like Tyrus....he's underdeveloped. At #9, we could take a chance on Yi Jianlian or Joakim Noah. We could take one of these young studs potentially, who might be better than Tyrus. Tyrus also has a very questionable work ethic. He came into camp this year out of shape. 

Then you guys mention Kobe lashing out at teammates, wants the hardest workers. Why are we keeping Kirk over Ben then? Its common sense to keep Ben over Kirk. Kirk has a bit of an ego. Kobe isn't going to take it. He's able to get away with it on the current Bulls because of the personalities of Deng and Gordon, as well as the short leash that Skiles has on Gordon. Kobe won't take that ****. Kirk will probably get traded for causing problems with the new star, as the Bulls self implode. Same deal with Tyrus Thomas. He's a headcase. He dogs it a lot, Kobe will have problems with him. Nocioni will be on his way out, just by the virtue of a sign and trade.

Thats why you have to do a ST with Kirk Hinrich, Tyrus Thomas, Andres Nocioni (ST...frontloaded), and either Chris Duhon or a resigned PJ Brown/Mike Sweetney.

The Lakers don't have much leverage here. When Kobe is sitting out, and they're losing games, I'm sure they'll find Kirk Hinrich, Tyrus Thomas, and Nocioni a better option.

Assuming we're able to keep Duhon on top of that.

PG-Ben Gordon (36 minutes)/Chris Duhon (12 minutes)
SG- Kobe Bryant (36 minuntes)/ Thabo Sefolosha (12 minutes)
SF-Luol Deng (36 minutes) / Thabo Sefolosha (12 minutes)
PF-
C- Ben Wallace (36 minutes)

That seems to be a good rotation for us to be going into. Then you have to fill in the backup center, and powerforward gaps. This will be easy to do imho. Our starting powerforward should come from the MLE. Varejao, Darko, etc.

Also, Chris Webber has made it clear that its not about the money anymore, but the ring. So if he fails this year....maybe we can split the MLE between him and Devin Brown (and throw out Duhon as the backup point).

Then you have the rookie. I think you have to take Joakim Noah here now. With Kobe, Joakim makes sense. He reminds me of Tyson Chandler kind of, just smarter...and unfortunately a little smaller. 

Then you have a guy like Viktar Khryapa who might be able to play some solid minutes at powerforward. Potentially Mario Austin as well.

I think a guy worth trading for, maybe buying a pick at the end of the first round, is Nick Fazekas. 6'11" 240 pounds. 20.4 PPG 11.4 RPG 1.5 BPG (56.8 FG% 43.1 3PT%)

This guy is going to be a major player in the league, and would work great with our team imho.

So we'd be looking something like this.

PG-Ben Gordon/Chris Duhon
SG-Kobe Bryant/Thabo Sefolosha
SF-Luol Deng/Thabo Sefolosha
PF-Chris Webber/Nick Fazekas
C- Ben Wallace/Joakim Noah

Very solid team.

You also have to hope that the level of competitiveness in the Berto between Kobe, Ben, Luol, and Thabo all raises their games. These are 3 of the hardest working players in the league, joining one of the other freak gym rats.

So you have to imagine:

Ben Gordon- 24 PPG 7.4 APG 
Kobe Bryant- 26 PPG 
Luol Deng- 20 PPG

Thats 70 PPG right there. You have to feel good if you have three guys that can put you to that number each night....then Thabo, Noah, Wallace, Webber, and Duhon just have to make up the other 30.

Now on the topic of Ben Gordon as a point guard. He has a lot of fixable dribbling errors. Hell, watching the Jazz game the other day, I saw Deron Williams doing some of those palming/traveling things they call Ben for, but no calls. If he's established as a point guard, they probably won't call those on him. 

In addition, his biggest weakness is getting trapped near midcourt. Now this is also fixable. With Kirk here, he has a short target to pass to. With Kobe here, he has a longer target to pass to. This is why we didn't see Gordon have this trap problem when he was in there in the Miami series with Thabo for a lot of the time. Thabo has long arms, and made for an easy target for Ben to pass out of the traps.

Its essential that we keep Gordon/Deng if we have any championship aspirations.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> Ben Gordon and Luol Deng are our two best players. Kobe is their best player. We had 49 wins. They had 42 wins. We're going to get better regardless, they're probably going to get worse, and fall out of the playoffs. They're star is demanding a trade. Our guys are not. Their guy has a no trade clause that would allow him to decide his destination.
> 
> For as much as we like Tyrus....he's underdeveloped. At #9, we could take a chance on Yi Jianlian or Joakim Noah. We could take one of these young studs potentially, who might be better than Tyrus. Tyrus also has a very questionable work ethic. He came into camp this year out of shape.
> 
> ...



PLEASE do me a favor and don't post anymore on this thread. While i'm one of the biggest bulls fan just like most people on this forum, your posts on this particular subject is just utterly ridicious and laughable. your post could be defined as the ultimate homerism. who are we talking about here ? repeat after me, K O B E B R Y A N T. the best damn player in the game. and u make it sound like lakers are begging us to give them kirk/tyrus/noc, they have zero leverage for trading someone like KObe? while we at it, lets give them victor, duhon and griffin, we don't need them. and lakers can't say no. god, plesae have some common sense about basketball.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Basel57 said:


> Kobe's going nowhere, and he didn't say he wants to be traded if Jerry West doesn't come to Los Angeles.
> 
> http://www.latimes.com/sports/basketball/nba/lakers/la-sp-lakers28may28,1,3711739.story?coll=la-headlines-sports-nba-lakers


Jerry West looks very tired to me -- maybe even sick. I doubt that he wants to jump back into the 3-ring circus in LA that he stomped out of several years ago. He should take a turn at a job in the league office if he still feels the need to keep working and can stand living in New York. They could use his help.


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## laso (Jul 24, 2002)

I have very serious doubts about this rumor but I would give Gordon and Deng for Kobe in a heartbeat. Best damn player in the league.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

laso said:


> I have very serious doubts about this rumor but I would give Gordon and Deng for Kobe in a heartbeat. Best damn player in the league.


And where's he getting LA....a fringe playoff team....

He's a guard. We're not trading for Tim Duncan. We're trading for Kobe Bryant. You don't trade either Deng/Gordon for Kobe imo when you factor in that you'll have to part with other assets to get the trade doen.

We are just going to end up like the Lakers are. A team with no shot at the title every year.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I really like SausageKing's proposal:

Gordon, Deng, & Wallace

for

Kobe & Bynum

Although we might need to throw in a draft pick though, since they're high on Bynum (maybe our #9, or maybe future 1st rounders). Alot easier to match salaries that way, without having ridiculous imbalance of players switching teams. Lakers might arguably be a better team with Gordon/Deng/Odom/Wallace at the core. I certainly think we'd be better with Hinrich/Kobe/Noch/Tyrus/Bynum. That's one the Lakers should consider even if Kobe doesn't demand a trade. 

Anyone who thinks that isn't fair should realize that Deng & Gordon are both young 20 ppg scorers on the rise. We just really need to consolidate some assets and boost our size, which this does.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Yeah. I don't think that trades fair for the Bulls.

Lakers become legit contenders though. I can't see them passing on that deal.

John Paxson should probably get fired for doing that trade as well.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

yodurk said:


> I really like SausageKing's proposal:
> 
> Gordon, Deng, & Wallace
> 
> ...



that's actually a very good trading proposal, lakers might consider it too if they had to trade kobe. people need to realize kobe aint gonna come cheap, no gordon or deng in the deal for kobe? LOL


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

Guys, Bynum is not that good. He had many supporters when he was drafted but more and more people have jumped off the bandwagon after watching him play and hearing about his practice habits. Andrew has two things going for him. He's bright and he's big. That is never going to change. The rest of him is not quite as impressive. He's not very strong. He's got terrific length but he's got a guard's strength right now. I still think he's two years away from even beginning to realize how to use his big body. He's an average athlete. He has that great wingspan and pretty good mobility but his leaping ability and quickness are only average for a big man. You'll never confuse him with Dwight Howard. He's also very immature. He's not immature in the Isiah Rider sense. He's just very young and acts every bit his age. This is a boy coming into a man's league. Lastly, his work ethic leaves alot to be desired. I'm worried about him because he has the finest tutors in the league (Kareem, Phil, and Kobe) and he still hasn't really progressed as a player. He's not Shaq. He's not Dwight or Amare. Hell, I don't even think he's the prospect that Eddy Curry was coming out of HS. I see Bynum as a better version of Jamal Magloire. Big body, great length, decent athlete, good low post scorer, some defensive potential. If everything breaks right, 17-9-2 would not surprise me. That is solid, borderline All Star production.


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## Smez86 (Jun 29, 2006)

Where is this alternate universe people are living in where Kirk is an egomaniac, Tyrus is out of shape, Ben Gordon is the ultimate point guard, and Kobe isn't worth beans?


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

What has Bryum done to get compared to Isiah Rider? I don't think so.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

johnston797 said:


> What has Bryum done to get compared to Isiah Rider? I don't think so.


Please read my post more closely. I said that Bynum *isn't* immature in the Isiash Rider sense. Rider was an *******, plain and simple. Bynum isn't a bad person. He's immature like a bratty teenager.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Smez86 said:


> Where is this alternate universe people are living in where Kirk is an egomaniac, Tyrus is out of shape, Ben Gordon is the ultimate point guard, and Kobe isn't worth beans?


Welcome to Bizzaro World.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Sith said:


> that's actually a very good trading proposal, lakers might consider it too if they had to trade kobe. people need to realize kobe aint gonna come cheap, no gordon or deng in the deal for kobe? LOL


Do you not understand the leverage we'd have in the trade?

Simply...Kobe has a no trade clause. Kobe can pick which team he wants to get traded to. He's not going to want the team he's going to to be getting gutted.

Kobe knows the players. He has spoken HIGHLY of Gordon and Deng...he's talked down Hinrich in the past. Which two out of those three core guys do you think he'd want to be on his team with him? Maybe the two guys he thinks highly of....

Lakers have no leverage in this situation. If Kobe stagnates himself from the organization, hopefully something can get done early in free agency. If this drags into the season, when Kobe is sitting out the entire preseason, and missing games until December 15th, what good does that do the Lakers? Fans will stop coming to their games to watch a 10 win team after Lamar Odom goes down with his annually injury. Lakers have no leverage.

Kirk Hirnich + Andres Nocioni would be the basis of the package.

Maybe Tyrus, but extra kudos points to Kobe if he can get Tyrus out of the trade, and get Duhon/Sweetney/Brown in there instead, plus the 2008 and 2010 picks.

If Kobe can dictate that Gordon, Deng, and Thomas remain here. Wallace will stay regardless, because of his massive contract.

If Kobe does the right thing, and threatens to sit out, forces them to trade him to us, and dicates that Gordon, Deng, and Thomas stay, we have a force on our hands.

PG-Ben Gordon
SG-Kobe Bryant
SF-Luol Deng
PF-Tyrus Thomas
C- Ben Wallace
Thabo Sefolosha
Draft Pick
MLE

Lakers if they trade Vlad, get capspace, as well as OJ Mayo, Derrick Rose, etc.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Pinball said:


> Guys, Bynum is not that good. He had many supporters when he was drafted but more and more people have jumped off the bandwagon after watching him play and hearing about his practice habits. Andrew has two things going for him. He's bright and he's big. That is never going to change. The rest of him is not quite as impressive. He's not very strong. He's got terrific length but he's got a guard's strength right now. I still think he's two years away from even beginning to realize how to use his big body. He's an average athlete. He has that great wingspan and pretty good mobility but his leaping ability and quickness are only average for a big man. You'll never confuse him with Dwight Howard. He's also very immature. He's not immature in the Isiah Rider sense. He's just very young and acts every bit his age. This is a boy coming into a man's league. Lastly, his work ethic leaves alot to be desired. I'm worried about him because he has the finest tutors in the league (Kareem, Phil, and Kobe) and he still hasn't really progressed as a player. He's not Shaq. He's not Dwight or Amare. Hell, I don't even think he's the prospect that Eddy Curry was coming out of HS. I see Bynum as a better version of Jamal Magloire. Big body, great length, decent athlete, good low post scorer, some defensive potential. If everything breaks right, 17-9-2 would not surprise me. That is solid, borderline All Star production.


Whether that's true or not, it's mostly irrelevant to the SausageKing proposal. A big challenge to a Kobe trade is, a) making it worthwhile for the Lakers, and b) matching salaries. Gordon/Deng/Wallace for Kobe/Bynum accomplishes this, and it also ensures that neither team is left with a gaping hole at the center position. I would honestly have to pull the trigger on that, and I also think the Lakers would be foolish not to, as it likely makes them a better team.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> Do you not understand the leverage we'd have in the trade?
> 
> Simply...Kobe has a no trade clause. Kobe can pick which team he wants to get traded to. He's not going to want the team he's going to to be getting gutted.
> *
> ...


Link? You're not going to have anyone believing these claims without some actual reports here...


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

Mebarak said:


> Yeah. I don't think that trades fair for the Bulls.
> 
> Lakers become legit contenders though. I can't see them passing on that deal.
> 
> John Paxson should probably get fired for doing that trade as well.



Mebarek,

You are killing me. I love reading your posts, but your comparissons are like Wallace's free throws - WAY OFF.

Hinrich has an ego? Gordon doesn't? Come it's the NBA. All of them do.

Keep Gordon cause Hinrich can't co-exist....again.LOL

Lakers become Championship caliber..Bulls don't? With Gordon we're nothing more than a second round exit team. 

The biggest thing we lack as a team period is::::::::::::::::

THE MAN -> The one guy who can take over and score and impose his will on another team at both ends of the floor.

The ONLY guy we have close to that is Deng...and he's not that close.

Gordon can light it up offensively, and meltdown just as easily offensively and defensively. Hinrich, not even in his own fantasies.

Kobe is a top 5 player and will be for the next 5-7 years. The guy is in insane shape. He will end his career as one of the top 10 all time.

I agree about not wanting to give up the farm.

However, we theoretically have 4 core pieces in place (Gordon, Deng, Hinrich and TT) + (3 good role players (Sefalosha, Duhon, Nocioni).

If we are keeping 4 of them plus our draft pick, we are still fielding a very good, if not better team. KOBE freakin scored 50+ for a week..........COuld've done it all season if he wanted to. Kobe's problem is wanting to get his crapy teammates involved. I know, I've watched plenty of Faker games since I live out here.

My message to Kupcake is take 2 of the 4 core + a role guy and Kobe is ours.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

If you consider the Core: Kirk, Ben, Deng, and Tyrus, my two leaving are Kirk and Ben. Duhon albeit not great can manage somewhat. We need to keep the one young PF we have. I could do Ben and Deng, but we better use the MLE on a nice SF.
The 9th pick can't be traded. Keep it to land a nice Big Man.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

theanimal23 said:


> If you consider the Core: Kirk, Ben, Deng, and Tyrus, my two leaving are Kirk and Ben. Duhon albeit not great can manage somewhat. We need to keep the one young PF we have. I could do Ben and Deng, but we better use the MLE on a nice SF.
> The 9th pick can't be traded. Keep it to land a nice Big Man.


Why? You ship Kirk and Tyrus out and call it a day.

Now I'll tell you why.

PG-Ben Gordon
SG-Kobe Bryant
SF-Luol Deng

Now lets compare

PG-John Paxson/BJ Armstrong/Ron Harper
SG-Michael Jordan
SF-Scottie Pippen

See any similiarities.

Now throw Skiles out as head coach. Bring in P-Jax along with Kobe.

Now hold up....Ben Gordon is significantly better than John Paxson.

I like to call this the triangle offense.

Does it not make sense to you? Ben Wallace is a great passing bigman after all. 

Ben Gordon put up 22 PPG being double teamed nearly every posession. You can't double team him with Kobe Bryant out there. Heck, you might even be able to find him wide open. That was a rare occasion this year. We already saw Kirk miss a ton of wide open shots (not a ton, but still). Ben Gordon with open shots...watch out. Ben/Luol will be killing it with all their wide open shots. 

We draft Mr. Joakim Noah. We groom him to be a modern day Dennis Rodman. 

We're talking dominance, we're talking a three peat, if you can't see that, well I'm sorry....we'd just be forming a better form of the championship Bulls.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> Why? You ship Kirk and Tyrus out and call it a day.
> 
> Now I'll tell you why.
> 
> ...


I find great issue with the idea of Gordon-Kobe-Deng being a "better form of the championship Bulls." 

You're either entirely unable to accurately judge how good the championship Bulls were or you're ridiculously overrating all three or a combination of the two.

Paxson/Armstrong/Harper were all much different players than Gordon is. Gordon's role is (and should be) something different. Suggesting that Gordon being a better player instantly makes the unit better is just a very poor assumption, IMO.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> Do you not understand the leverage we'd have in the trade?
> 
> Simply...Kobe has a no trade clause. Kobe can pick which team he wants to get traded to. He's not going to want the team he's going to to be getting gutted.
> 
> ...


do you have ANY NBA common sense about what a player might be worth of?


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Mebarak said:


> Why? You ship Kirk and Tyrus out and call it a day.


I may be in the minority, but I think Tyrus will become a beast. But we will have to see how much improvement he makes this offseason to judge his work-ethic. If he has it, I do see an All-Star caliber PF. If he doesn't, then he might just be a nice role/energy player. 

Again I might be in the minority, but IF Tyrus has a strong work ethic. I mean Deng/Gordon/Superstar Player like Work Ethic, he has all the potential and athletic ability to be our best player. Again it is up to him. There's no denying the talent.

I do think we would have a horrible and *OLD* frontline without him. But if the deal was Kirk and Tyrus or else no Kobe, then yeah I would help pack his bags.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> *If we have to give up Ben Gordon for Kobe, I'll just pass on this trade.* Ben Gordon + a resigned PJ Brown (I think Brown would have to be resigned to about 2 years-40 million) for this to work.
> 
> Therefore no go on Gordon.





Mebarak said:


> I have a short list of players I'd trade Gordon for (and its a short list because he's that damn good)
> 
> *Kobe Bryant*
> Dwyane Wade
> ...


Just curious here - have you changed your mind on Kobe being worth trading Gordon for, or is it a lack of workable deals with Gordon involved for Kobe that makes it a "no go" for trading Gordon? If yes to the first, why?


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> Why? You ship Kirk and Tyrus out and call it a day.
> 
> Now I'll tell you why.
> 
> ...


Now that would be a team. 

Gordon
Bryant
Deng
Wallace
Noah

Don't care if it's feasible to give up just Kirk and a battered Noc, but damn that would be a team and I would officially start and switch my religion to Paxsonism.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

King Joseus said:


> Just curious here - have you changed your mind on Kobe being worth trading Gordon for, or is it a lack of workable deals with Gordon involved for Kobe that makes it a "no go" for trading Gordon? If yes to the first, why?


The problem is you would have to give up someone else good along with him, Kirk, Tyrus, etc.

If it was Ben Gordon and Sign and Traded PJ Brown, for Kobe, I'd be fine with that.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

My brief (due to getting out of here shortly) thoughts:

- I don't think the Lakers trade away Kobe without taking Ben Gordon back for him.
- I do think a deal could be worked out between us and L.A., but it would involve dealing away a player or three that I really like. It's a sacrifice I'm willing to make, however, as I'm actually a fan of Kobe's and realize how good we could be with him.
- I don't want to give up Deng or Tyrus if it can be helped.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

We are looking at this situation the wrong way. We're not going to get Kobe Bryant. It would require gutting the team of several core members. I don't see Pax doing that, even for Mr. Bryant. 

Instead of trading FOR Kobe, we need to help facilitate Kobe's "WIN NOW" request. This would be the perfect opportunity to dump Ben Wallace on them. Kobe wants major changes, and he's not talking about another rebuilding process. They want to get out of the first round. 

I made a trade proposal weeks ago which was basically...

Ben Wallace, 9th pick 

for 

Bynum, Kwame's expiring, 19th pick

See post: http://www.basketballforum.com/chicago-bulls/358279-who-id-consider-trading.html#post4741164 

The more Kobe fusses over the situation in LA, the more likely I could see them going for a deal like this. Hell, we might even be able to do a better deal than that now. We keep our pick, they keep theirs, and just make it Wallace & future pick for Kwame & Bynum straight up. Filler could be added to match salaries.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

SALO said:


> We are looking at this situation the wrong way. We're not going to get Kobe Bryant. It would require gutting the team of several core members. I don't see Pax doing that, even for Mr. Bryant.
> 
> Instead of trading FOR Kobe, we need to help facilitate Kobe's "win now" request. This would be the perfect opportunity to dump Ben Wallace on them. Kobe wants major changes, and he's not talking about another rebuilding process. They want to get out of the first round.
> 
> ...


I don't see Pax doing that. I think he and Skiles value Big Ben too much. Also they do not want to get younger or make the media think that the Ben Wallace project was a failure and should have kept Tyson. Even if that is not the major reason of thought, it would not surprise me if this was in the back of their mind after the reasons of 1. Vet Experience 2. DPOY etc

I do like the idea. But I do not want to throw in that 9th pick. I think you could get a deal done without it or with the 2008 1st rounder in place, then its a great deal.

You are absolutley right though. I think its a deal the Lakers would think long and hard, and consider. 

I would definitely do it. Why? We get a team maturing at the same age/rate. We then use the 9th and 19th and try to move up in this draft. Maybe use Kwame's expiring including the picks to land a Big Man.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

SALO said:


> We are looking at this situation the wrong way. We're not going to get Kobe Bryant. It would require gutting the team of several core members. I don't see Pax doing that, even for Mr. Bryant.
> 
> Instead of trading FOR Kobe, we need to help facilitate Kobe's "WIN NOW" request. This would be the perfect opportunity to dump Ben Wallace on them. Kobe wants major changes, and he's not talking about another rebuilding process. They want to get out of the first round.
> 
> ...


I'll settle for Mihm, Nocioni and our #9 pick. 
LA gets to keep their #19 and Kwame. 
We get to keep Wallace.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Ben Wallace for Andrew Bynum and Kwame Brown is actually a perfect trade imho. We'd have to take Vlad's crap contract off their hands too. We can dump Khryapa on them as well in this trade.

Under this scenario, if both Ben/Luol's contracts start at 9 million, we should have about 12 million in capspace if we don't sign an MLE guy for more than a year. 

If Paxson can then dump Vlad by using our 2008 pick, we'll be looking at close to 18 million in capspace.

We could be talking about something like a 5 year, 101 million contract.

1. Tim Duncan
2. Emeka Okafor
3. Elton Brand
4. Jermaine O'neal

So...

Kirk Hinrich
Ben Gordon
Thabo Sefolosha
Luol Deng
Tyrus Thomas
Emeka Okafor
Joakim Noah/Spencer Hawes/Yi Jianlian
Andrew Bynum

Is a pretty sweet core.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Actually come to think of it, I wouldn't trade Big Ben. We need a Vet around. Tyrus and #9 is young enough and going to be bright enough for the future. Plus in two years, Ben Wallace is Mr. Expiring.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

If Kobe comes to the Bulls, I'll be taking a hiatus from the NBA till he's gone. Simple as that. I can't stand him, and wouldn't cheer for any team with him on it. BUT, personal (justified) prejudice aside, the trade to get him would have to include Lil Ben, and NOT include Kirk. Kirk would be a superstar-type PG if he had a SG like Kobe playing next to him. He's been doing 2 people's jobs for years because Lil Ben can't hold up his end on D, so if Kirk no longer had to do that, you'd see a huge improvement in his #s...not to mention a scorer like Kobe would make his assist #s skyrocket. 

Personally, the trade I'd look for would be a Nocioni S&T, Lil Ben, Vyktor and '08 1st. That probably wouldn't get it done though, and we'd have to end up sending #9 in this year's draft to them as well as everything I mentioned (aside from the '08 1st). We might have to even include Thabo and/or Tyrus in there. If we had to include the #9 in this year's draft, Tyrus and/or Thabo, along with Noc, Ben and Vyktor, that'd be way too steap of a price, and we'd be the worse team in the long run as a result. Our lineup if we had to give up all of them would look like this:

Kirk/Duchump
Kobe
Luol
?????
Wallace

We wouldn't even have a "decent" PF on the roster with PJ gone, Tyrus traded, etc. So we'd be stuck with no PF, and no depth at all at SG, SF, and C. 


In the end though, I'd pass, because he's a rapist (convicted or not, he still is), he's a cocky POS, and most importantly (from a basketball standpoint) he can't get along with his teammates. Any time you get someone so selfish that they can't co-exist on a team that could've been a dynasty, they're bad news for your franchise, and I'd want no part of him (even if he was a decent person off the court). 

If we got him relatively cheap, for something like Noc, Lil Ben, Vyktor, '08 1st, (which I don't think would happen) we'd be a better team, but I'd still pass.

If you compare possible lineups here, of our team after gutting it to get Kobe (as I'd expect), or just using the pick and going with the team "as is", here's what I think they'd basically look like:

WITH-------------------WITHOUT
Kirk/Duchump-----------Kirk/Duchump
Kobe-------------------Ben/Thabo
Luol-------------------Luol/Vyktor
????????---------------Tyrus/Nocioni
Wallace----------------Wallace/Hawes

Sorry, but even though Kobe is a huge upgrade over Ben talent-wise, our team would be much better keeping our young studs and drafting a guy like Hawes. Another look would be trading Luol for Kobe if we were able to draft Brewer. If we could do Ben and Luol for Kobe and a post player, and draft Brewer with our pick that wouldn't be too bad either, but not too sure we'd be doing much improvement personally.

Exactly how many championships has Kobe won without an elite Center? Yeah, that's right, NONE!


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## theyoungsrm (May 23, 2003)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Exactly how many championships has Kobe won without an elite Center? Yeah, that's right, NONE!


terrible argument.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

SALO said:


> We are looking at this situation the wrong way. We're not going to get Kobe Bryant. It would require gutting the team of several core members. I don't see Pax doing that, even for Mr. Bryant.
> 
> Instead of trading FOR Kobe, we need to help facilitate Kobe's "WIN NOW" request. This would be the perfect opportunity to dump Ben Wallace on them. Kobe wants major changes, and he's not talking about another rebuilding process. They want to get out of the first round.
> 
> ...


I like that, minus the picks. We could throw in Noc/Du instead, and maybe a future pick. Lets face it, Bynum isn't exactly setting the world on fire, average 7.8 and 5.9, and not even starting all the time. He looks like he'll be good, but hard telling. He was 10th overall 2 years ago, so trading the #9 and a DPOY for him doesn't make a lot of sense, especially if they're forced to make deals to appease El Rapero. If we added Noc and/or Duhon and no picks, our #9 wouldn't necessarily have to be used on a big anymore, as we'd have Tyrus as our PF of the future, and Bynum as our C of the future. We'd then be set at every position with good young talent, with only SG needing upgraded due to defensive reasons. We could then look at BPA, regardless of position at #9. If Brewer, Conley, Green, etc were the BPA, we'd be able to take them, without feeling we were neglecting our post problems. I REALLY like that scenario. Of course, we could still take a guy like Hawes, Wright, etc if they were BPA, so it's a win-win situation if we were to make that trade IMO. Lakers compete now, we get our missing piece, get rid of a bad salary and Duchump (YAY!!) and we're good to go.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

theyoungsrm said:


> terrible argument.


How do you figure? They had a dynasty till he was a little ***** and ran Shaq out of town. Now, exactly what have they done since then? Nothing. He proved he wasn't good enough to win a championship without an elite post player with him. We don't have an elite post player. Very good argument IMO.


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## Smez86 (Jun 29, 2006)

I hate defending Kobe here but it's undeniable that he's one of the best players on the planet.

In the last 18 years, the Bulls and the 03-04 Pistons are the only teams to win the title without a dominant post player. So you can hardly fault him for that.

And it's not like Gordon or Deng are winning titles right now without an elite post player either.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I very much wonder if we'd need to swap the #9 and #19 picks. Why not a Wallace for Kwame/Bynum deal straight up? The deal doesn't work now, but it will under their 2008 salaries that kick in on July 1st.

The question I see is whether Wallace is the best the Lakers can get. Cause as I see it, Bynum is pretty much the only card they've got get veteran improvement.


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

Stephen A. Smith just said on the pre-game show that he's talked to Kobe a couple of times in the past few days and that Kobe will indeed want out if West isn't brought back.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

I really don't want Kobe Bryant to be a Bull.

He's annoying.

And I'm pretty sure he raped a girl. (not interested in arguing about this or hijacking the thread)

And I think we can win titles without him...


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## eymang (Dec 15, 2006)

theanimal23 said:


> Not saying if I would or wouldn't, but if it was essentially Deng and Gordon for Kobe -- Yes or No? Would you do it?



Yes...in less than a second, as would Pax...



Kobe would be here if they didn't trade Shaq, Pax and Skiles aren't idiots, and please stop making us look bad with all the 'cancer' and all that other crap. This thread is also the best example of how me we overvalue our players, I mean damn, it's starting to get embarassing


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Someone please explain to me why it makes sense to trade the two best players on a 49 win team, for the best player on a 42 win team? Just doesn't make sense to me. 

We'll end up with an angry Kobe on our hands who is complaining about a lack of talent...since we traded away our two best players.

If this was Tim Duncan, you send Ben and Luol packing. But this isn't. This is Kobe Bryant, and in order to be a good team after obtaining Kobe, we'll need to keep one of Ben/Luol, and to be a championship contender after obtaining him, we'll have to obtain both.

I'd rather take my chances with the current team, then trading one of Ben/Luol in a major package for Kobe where we have to give up other assets as well (Tyrus, Kirk).

Its just not worth it. 

Since Shaq departed....34, 45, 42.

Us in the same time....47, 41, 49.

Lets average that out 40.3 vs. 45.6.

I think people who are talking about trading both Luol/Ben for Kobe, let alone one of them, as well as another major asset in Kirk, Tyrus, or both are absolutely crazy.

Kobe isn't going to take us to the promised land. Things aren't going to change when he gets to Chicago. We need both Ben and Luol here if we want to win a championship with Kobe. The guy isn't worth it. He can stay in LA, and probably miss the playoffs next year, with the improvements of the Blazers and Sonics.

We aren't in a desperate team. We're a team on the uprise. Lakers on the otherhand, they're ready to free fall in the tough Western Conference. No reason at all why we should give up our two best players. We're not trying to save the Lakers franchise, no need to do any favors here for them. They have their mess, and we damn well shouldn't help them clean it up. We should take advantage of them, not do favors for them, and give them the superior talents.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

Kobe is a superior talent to Deng and Gordon. I can only hope you meant that those two combined are greater talents than Kobe?


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

King Joseus said:


> Kobe is a superior talent to Deng and Gordon. I can only hope you meant that those two combined are greater talents than Kobe?


Together they are.

But at the end of the day.

Ben Gordon is 24 years old.

Luol Deng is 22 years old.

Kobe is 29 years old.

[All ages coming into the next season]

Luol Deng's only injury was on his wrist. A freak injury.

Ben Gordon is a tank, he never has been injured.

Kobe has averaged 11 missed games per season. This guy has knee problems. This guy is injury prone. 

Ben/Luol are only going to get better. Kobe may decline, and there is no telling how long before that heppens on a player with as much tear on him. He has missed lots of games. He has a ton of extra playoff games to wear down his body. How long does he stay up.

Kobe is a great scorer...but he isn't a true legend like Tim Duncan or Michael Jordan, or Shaq, thats going to carry us through, deep into the playoffs just by being on the team. 

I think its a tremendously bad idea to give up either Luol/Ben in a trade for Kobe. 

If this is the route we are going to take, I'd rather just call up Minnesota, and go get Kevin Garnett.


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## King Joseus (May 26, 2003)

Fair enough. I don't think there's a feasible trade that we can make with L.A., so it's not a huge deal one way or another...


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

I agree with Sloth there to an extent. The only thing I don't agree on is that if we got Kobe we'd have to keep Lil Ben. They play the same position, and NO, Lil Ben can NOT play the point. I could play the point about as well as he could, and I'm barely exaggerating. 

Just looking at the players, instead of the PEOPLE, getting Kobe would be a good trade if we could just give up a couple players. Factoring in everything, as you must, he's a no no. You could definitely win the east, and probably a championship if you had this for a team:

Kirk/Duchump
Kobe
Luol
Tyrus
Hawes

Giving up Big Ben, Lil Ben, Thabo, Nocioni. Granted our post players would be young and one dimensional, like we already have in Wallace, but you'd have one athletic freak who blocks everything near him, and another with amazing skills and moves for someone his age. We'd still have a great PG who is good on D, a good SF who is steadily working his way up to being a top SF, the best scorer in the NBA in Kobe, and those 2 young studs on the post. The bench would be thin, but if we were able to get some guys like Reyshawn Terry and another big in the 2nd round the bench would be comparable to what it is now (if you factor in no PJ and Tyrus as a starter). 

If we could get back Bynum in the trade, we could even throw in Luol, as we could potentially get Brewer to replace him. I'd prefer keeping Luol and drafting Hawes, but Bynum and Brewer would give us more size and athleticism.


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## theyoungsrm (May 23, 2003)

i assuming that bulls posters have a terrible rep as homers around this site, outside of the bulls forum.

those may have been unfair generalizations before, but we have certainly earned them now. 


kobe bryant, i admit in my humble opinon, is no worst than the third best player in the game. the game. all of basketball. ben gordon and luol deng, best case scenario arent in the top three at their position. they are good solid basketball players...dynamic at times. 

but we're talking about kobe ya'll. kobe.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

theyoungsrm said:


> i assuming that bulls posters have a terrible rep as homers around this site, outside of the bulls forum.
> 
> those may have been unfair generalizations before, but we have certainly earned them now.
> 
> ...


We're also talking about a guy with severe character issues, that we want no part of due to that, not his ability. BIG difference. Kobe is the best scorer in the NBA today, but isn't nearly as good in other facets of the game. He's dirty, he's "annoying" as Dornado said (I find him disgusting moreso than annoying, but same difference), and he's a locker-room cancer. I mean, come on, the guy single-handedly destroyed what could've been an all-time dyansty because of his ego. Even if he wasn't a disgusting player and a rapist, I still wouldn't want him because of what he did in LA that ruined the team.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

theyoungsrm said:


> i assuming that bulls posters have a terrible rep as homers around this site, outside of the bulls forum.
> 
> those may have been unfair generalizations before, but we have certainly earned them now.
> 
> ...


dont group all Bulls posters the same way. some of us would accept a trade for Kobe.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

inside hoops dusted off this old seattle article. ray allen with the foresight.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/195189_sonx14.html



> "I think the point production is not going to be so much what people are going to look at because (Tracy) McGrady did it in Orlando, Allen (Iverson) did it in Philly. Can you win a championship? I think that's the question. Carrying guys on your back and making everybody better."
> 
> Can Bryant do that?
> 
> ...


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## theyoungsrm (May 23, 2003)

DaBabyBullz said:


> We're also talking about a guy with severe character issues, that we want no part of due to that, not his ability. BIG difference. Kobe is the best scorer in the NBA today, but isn't nearly as good in other facets of the game. He's dirty, he's "annoying" as Dornado said (I find him disgusting moreso than annoying, but same difference), and he's a locker-room cancer. I mean, come on, the guy single-handedly destroyed what could've been an all-time dyansty because of his ego. Even if he wasn't a disgusting player and a rapist, I still wouldn't want him because of what he did in LA that ruined the team.


i'll respect the fact that you'll stay away from kobe because of off the court stuff. but on the court, the move is easy. 

we'll agree to disagree


i think he's no "dirtier" than nocioni or posey. his follow through while shooting fouls were no worse than manu flying into the lane with his knees at guys chests or any good rebounder letting his elbows fly after a tough board. miller made a living out of kicking his legs out at a approacing defender.


i don't know about his locker room disposition because i was never there. i suspect most people, including ray allen weren't there either.

and maybe shaq terrible work ethic, committment, and durability had something to do with the dynasty dying. 

he also didn't pull the trigger on the trade either.

anyways we can agree to disagree.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

theyoungsrm said:


> i'll respect the fact that you'll stay away from kobe because of off the court stuff. but on the court, the move is easy.
> 
> we'll agree to disagree
> 
> ...


Assuming he could co-exist in the locker-room, on the court it's a no brainer to trade for him. By the time I weigh everything together, I'm 100% against getting him. Kobe might not have officially pulled the trigger on the trade, but when you have a guy perceived by some as the next Michael Jordan on your team, and he threatens to leave if you don't meet his demands, you do what he tells you to. Simple as that. In other words, he held the gun and put their finger on the trigger, and nudged them enough to make the gun go off...basically the same thing as pulling the trigger himself. 

I'm not trying to persuade you into thinking like I do in regards to him for the record. I was simply stating the fact that most people who wouldn't want him feel that way due to off the court things, and/or what we perceive as character issues in regards to the locker room...again off the court issues more or less.

BTW, all of the guys you listed as being dirty are all guys I've always hated, with Noc being the exception of course lol. Manu, Reggie, Posey...hate em all with a passion.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

I hate Kobe Bryant. The guy just irritates me. That said, he is an incredible talent and if the guy is trying to force a trade to your team, you darn well better do your best to make it happen. I love our young core as much (or more) than the next guy, but you definitely have to part with at least one of them to bring Bryant in.

Talk about that long 2 guard we've been looking for.


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## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! (Jun 10, 2003)

I would deal Ben G and Lou for him. In a micro-heartbeat. Before Kup-check even hung up the phone. Like Michael Johnson crossing the street. Or Muhammed Ali turning out the light. 
Lickety-split people.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

http://fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/nba?cnn=yes



> *Kobe wants to play for Bulls?*
> 
> *Posted: Tuesday May 29, 2007 05:35AM ET*
> 
> It's my understanding Kobe recently informed Lakers ownership he'd sanction a trade to one specific team and no other. My source is oblivious to its identity. Logic dictates that team is the Bulls, because there's no way the Lakers would deal him to the Clippers.




That snippet is from the NY Post.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

Peter Vecsey at it again.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> http://fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/nba?cnn=yes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm still not convinced Kobe will actually pull the trigger officially on his trade demand. But if he does, this is very encouraging. 

Even if we give up Gordon and Deng, this likely makes us the team to beat in the East next year (pending the re-signing of Nocioni as our starting SF).


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

Mebarak said:


> Someone please explain to me why it makes sense to trade the two best players on a 49 win team, for the best player on a 42 win team? Just doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> We'll end up with an angry Kobe on our hands who is complaining about a lack of talent...since we traded away our two best players.
> 
> ...


Basketball isn't played on paper though. You can't just say we won 49, they won 42 so Kobe's not worth it. As good as Kobe is, he's playing with 4 other guys. It isn't golf. 

Every single player they count on besides Lamar is either a 2nd rounder or a deep end first rounder. And no they aren't Boozer type over achievers. Cook, Sasha, and Farmar are all end 1sts and Walton, Evans, Turiaf, and S. Williams are 2nds. Radman is ok and he wasn't even there in the post season. Kwame is quite a talent but no heart or basketball IQ making him still a loser. That Butler trade really set them back. They could use a guy like him this offseason for a big trade. 

Do people seriously think Tim Duncan or Steve Nash could win w/ that crew? 

I remember a few weeks ago watching the Lakers play w/ my roommate and just saying "Are you watching this? They got Smush Parker, Shammond Williams (who I thought never played all season but there he was in crunch time in the playoffs) and Ronny Turiaf on the floor w/ a few minutes to go in the PLAYOFFS?" 

That is a joke. Getting Kobe on this team w/ some actual real talent in the East nonetheless would make us better than we are now IMO. 

With that said, I probably wouldn't trade Deng and Gordon for him. I don't think that makes me a homer. I don't really see how trading two guys who will soon be all star caliber player players who are 24 and 22 makes sense when Kobe is 29. I'm fully aware of how great he is and I even think Kobe will be great until he's 35, 36 years old. I don't know how well we could score w/ that team especially considering we're starting Tyrus and Ben up front. Kobe adds a dynamic scoring option that's the best in the league but you don't want to force him to score 35 a night. 

I mean it could be worth it in the end. I could see us getting a couple of good free agents w/ him being here over the next couple years to put us over the top, but if we make that trade, every single year is going to count with him being 29. There'd need to be something else done right away after through free agency to shore things up. I guess if we did give up them two, you'd think we'd be able to keep our 9th pick to help us out. Not sure what it would take otherwise. One of Gordon or Deng, Tyrus, Noce (S & Ted) or #9 and next year's 1st? I don't see him being dealt though. Not this summer anyway.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Even if we give up Gordon and Deng, this likely makes us the team to beat in the East next year (pending the re-signing of Nocioni as our starting SF).


I'm not that confident with Noc as our starting SF, not sure if it's because I can't see him in anything but the 6th man / energy guy off the bench role or what.

They can have Gordon and pretty much everyone else bar Hinrich, Deng, Thomas and Wallace. He's one heck of a player, but in the end I don't see us getting any closer than we are now. A lot does depend on free agency though, after seeing Bonzi turn down a decent extension and end up with a $2M contract, I'm not ruling out anything.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

yodurk said:


> I'm still not convinced Kobe will actually pull the trigger officially on his trade demand. But if he does, this is very encouraging.
> 
> Even if we give up Gordon and Deng, this likely makes us the team to beat in the East next year (pending the re-signing of Nocioni as our starting SF).


No need to include Deng in the deal if Kobe restricted LA's barganing to one team.
LA would have to take or refuse whatever the Bulls offer if Kobe demanded such a trade. 

If such a demand were made and I was Kupchak, I'd tell Kobe to stick his demands where the sun doesn't shine.

Since Kobe denies making any trade demands, the NY Post rumor is probably BS.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Just in from 1st & 10 -

Now it's Dirk for Kobe! Funny stuff. 

Jemele Hill. Is this really Marla (or whatever her name was) from the Tribune?

The Bulls proposal - Wallace, Gordon and Deng for Kobe (doesn't work on trade checker). I may be a homer, but why stop there. Why not throw in Hinrich and Thomas too? Why not just trade the Lakers for the Bulls? I've got more chance of becoming a Bull or a Laker before Paxson would make a trade like that.

Just my 2 cents, but I want Hinrich, Deng and Tyrus left if Bryant is being added. As much as I'm NOT a fan of Wallace (I wanted to keep Chandler), I think he has to stay too. So I'm open to Gordon, Thabo, our #9 and a future #1 along with any necessary filler. 

If that ain't good enough, well, it ain't good enough.

And for all those who think we have to give away 2 of Hinrich/Deng/Gordon as a part of a larger package, why exactly would Bryant want to come here if we gut the team for him? He'd likely be a lot more inclined to go to a team like Minnesota where they can gut the pieces but still have 2 superstars left.


First Take -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydqGh2MA2S8

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ydqGh2MA2S8"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ydqGh2MA2S8" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

I would trade any two players on our team plus the pick for Kobe.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Mr. T said:


> Just my 2 cents, but I want Hinrich, Deng and Tyrus left if Bryant is being added.


Same here.

Gordon
Thabo/Noce
Future picks


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

superdave said:


> I would trade any two players on our team plus the pick for Kobe.


Why does Bryant want to come here to this team *minus* Deng, Gordon/Hinrich, pick(s)? He might as well stay right there in sunny California and push for some sort of trade to either bring in a guy like Garnett or move to a team with a guy like Garnett.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

RealGM Wire Tracker -- Kobe would only approve a trade to one team. Doesn't say what.

My guess, and trying not to be biased: Chicago. Competent team left over, hard working, focuses on D, Strict Coach, Solid GM. Other guess: NYK - It's New York City Baby.

Ben Wallace would not be traded. I don't see Pax trading him even using him for a contract filler. 

Again the deal I would do, leaving us enough parts to build for the future and help us go to the finals this year:

We need about 14.5 million in outgoing contracts
S&T Noce - Outgoing 3.5 Million
Gordon - 5 Million
Thabo - 2 Million
Viktor: 2 Million
Duhon: 3 Million
2009 1st rounder

Kirk/?
Kobe/Griff
Deng/Mo Pete?
Tyrus/Malik
Ben/Hawes or Noah/PJ

I'd like to keep Du. But We need him as a salary filler. I'm not giving up Tyrus. I rather give up Thabo and a future pick. They get their "PG" and SG. Noce is a solid role player. Duhon can play backup Point. A lot more value considering what they got for Shaq and what other Superstars go for.

We have a solid starting 5. I do worry about our depth. I wish we could work on a way on keeping Duhon and adding more salary filler (S&T with Sweets but to a 1 year deal?). This way we need to add a solid 2/3 in FA and we will have a good 8-9 man rotation.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

Mr. T said:


> Why does Bryant want to come here to this team *minus* Deng, Gordon/Hinrich, pick(s)? He might as well stay right there in sunny California and push for some sort of trade to either bring in a guy like Garnett or move to a team with a guy like Garnett.


and how long would he want to stay if the remaining bulls don't win a championship?
not very long. clock's ticking and kobe's legacy as the greatest player of all time or this generation or whatever is in the balance.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

I'm not saying the Iverson trade is the benchmark for all other trades, but it is worth repeating.

Andre Miller, Joe Smith and two 2007 first-round picks to the Sixers for Iverson and Ivan McFarlin.

Yes Kobe is better than Iverson, but letting the Lakers take your 2 or 3 best players along with future considerations is just way too much for anybody.

Paxson was looking to get Gasol cheap. I believe he made some reference to a Rasheed like deal. Well, we're not getting a Rasheed deal from anyone and someone will have to be sacrificed eventually. My personal feeling is there is just about no trade Paxson would make that would deal Deng. I'm sure he would trade either Hinrich or Gordon in the right deal but I'd bet Gordon would be his first preference to be dealt. There are still issues with his role and I'm not sure the Bulls and Gordon will be on the same page with respect to Ben's value. That could be further strained if, as I'd expect, Deng signs a lucrative deal that makes him the top paid core member. Paxson can avoid all that by packaging him for the "missing piece".


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Mr. T said:


> I'm not saying the Iverson trade is the benchmark for all other trades, but it is worth repeating.
> 
> Andre Miller, Joe Smith and two 2007 first-round picks to the Sixers for Iverson and Ivan McFarlin.
> 
> ...


I really like this post. I think you are dead-on about John Paxson's trading Philosophy


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> RealGM Wire Tracker -- Kobe would only approve a trade to one team. Doesn't say what.
> 
> My guess, and trying not to be biased: Chicago. Competent team left over, hard working, focuses on D, Strict Coach, Solid GM. Other guess: NYK - It's New York City Baby.


Not that I care what happens to the Knicks anymore (if they're good next year, then so be it; could be fun to face them in the playoffs)...but I would be surprised if he wanted New York. His entire rationale for this demand (if we can even call it that right now) is because the team isn't heading in the right direction. The Knicks haven't been a winner for a while now, and I'm not sure even Kobe could make them any better than the 42-win team that the Lakers were. 

Let's assume the Knicks trade away their few valuable assets: David Lee, Mardy Collins, and Marbury (for filler purposes) for Kobe. Their lineup becomes Crawford, Kobe, Balkman, Frye, Curry, with Nate, Q, Jeffries off the bench. I guess that squad has the potential for a good season (no worse than .500, maybe even as good as 45-50 wins) but still not a title contender. My point is, I'd be very surprised if it's NYK he wants.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Mr. T said:


> I'm not saying the Iverson trade is the benchmark for all other trades, but it is worth repeating.
> 
> Andre Miller, Joe Smith and two 2007 first-round picks to the Sixers for Iverson and Ivan McFarlin.
> 
> ...


The Iverson trade is a good comparison. That means when a superstar demands a trade and has some say over the destination, the most his team can expect in return is one of the top 3 players on the team he's traded to.

In this case, the best LA can expect is Gordon + filler + a pick. Goodness knows where the filler could come from.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

McBulls said:


> In this case, the best LA can expect is Gordon + filler + a pick. Goodness knows where the filler could come from.


Would a sign + trade of PJ for a healthy sum work? It could give LA a nice vet for a year and would give them cap relief after the season.

Additionally, I suppose signing both PJ for a year and Noc for a long-term deal would get the salaries close.

BG + pick + re-signed PJ + Duhon?


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

From what I hear,

Jerry Buss has figured out Kobe set up this trap. He is NOT going to trade Kobe.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Mr. T said:


> Just my 2 cents, but I want Hinrich, Deng and Tyrus left if Bryant is being added. As much as I'm NOT a fan of Wallace (I wanted to keep Chandler), I think he has to stay too. So I'm open to Gordon, Thabo, our #9 and a future #1 along with any necessary filler.
> <object height="350" width="425">
> 
> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ydqGh2MA2S8" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="350" width="425"></object>


I think Tyrus is probably expendible in that situation. As big a fan as I am of him, I don't think he's going to come in and be a consistent starting quality player next year. Especially not playing next to Wallace. It's a very funky fit in the first place, and I agree that given the window of opportunity Kobe presents you have to keep Wallace. That and his age make Tyrus a little bit of a square peg, especially if we used our MLE on a bigger, older player.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

MikeDC said:


> It's a very funky fit in the first place, and I agree that given the window of opportunity Kobe presents you have to keep Wallace.


Man, Jamele Hill is an idiot. In the East it has been shown that you can have one star and make it all the way through? What team is she talking about? The Pistons are as balanced a team as you can find... the Heat had Wade and O'Neal... 

Her unabashed love for Kobe Bryant aside, I think giving up Gordon, Deng and Wallace is still a bad idea. Too much. If Kobe really wants out, and can pick his team, then you take the Lakers to the cleaners... not give up three of your best players...


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## Krande (Jun 10, 2005)

I just contacted my trade checking sources and Kobe for Ben Wallace works... I think something is cooking! And if the Lakers don't bite we can always get $jax!!! :wave:


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Yeah, Kobe will be a Bull. Hopefully he does not let up. The more vocal he is, the less we'll have to give up.

People are dead wrong about giving up Gordon.

You want to give Hinrich + Nocioni as the basis of the trade. 

Also, can we resign PJ to one year, and trade him like that? I was under the interpretation it had to be two years, but if it is only one year, that makes things a whole lot easier for them to accept taking him back. We can sign him up to like 9.5 million, and he wouldn't be BYC. That would help this trade along immensely. (but wait, why would PJ want to go to the crappy Lakers? Maybe he can bait them into cutting him...oh wait...the 9.5 million dollars that he wouldn't make elsewhere...duh). 

Anyhow, you trade Gordon. Ben Gordon has been the rock of this team for the past 3 years. He has been the only guy in the past 3 years that we could rely on to get it done for us. He has had some shortcomings, like in this past Pistons series, but he didn't disappear. For as bad as he was said to be in the Pistons series, his TS% was still a high 57.0, and that was being double teamed. Kirk was somewhere down in the 40's, at like 12 PPG somewhere down in the 40's. In addition, everyone rags on Gordon for his turnovers, but him and Kirk had the exact same number of turnovers in the playoffs. Wait....can we trust Kirk as our point guard then, since apparently Gordon turns it over too much to be the point guard.....so if Kirk turns it over just as much, he is unfit for the position.

At the end of the day, Ben Gordon was our best player in the regular season. Luol Deng 2nd best. Luol Deng was our best player in the playoffs, Ben Gordon the 2nd best.

YOU DO NOT TRADE EITHER OF THESE GUYS. 

We have been able to rely on Ben being there all year for us for the past 3 years. And now it looks like Luol is right there with us. You keep these guys out of fire.

You trade 

Kirk Hinrich (5.5 million), PJ Brown (9.5 million), and Nocioni/Tyrus.

That trade works under the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

Now you obviously want to keep Tyrus, and send Noc packing, but if worse comes to worse, you trade Tyrus, and keep Nocioni (thats not that bad in the end....).

Joakim Noah will probably be there at our pick. This is the perfect storm type of situation for him, which makes it easier to send Tyrus on his way out. Noah is 7 foot tall. He has a long wingspan. If he can be a 12 PPG 10 PPG for us, which I think he can, then that is great.

So Kirk Hinrich, Tyrus Thomas, and PJ Brown and the 2008 pick for Kobe Bryant. 

In this trade, Kirk Hinrich was the only guy of these three that played at any type of quality level all year long (well not really quality for like those 2 months....). PJ Brown was crap, and Tyrus just had a good month and a half. This is Kobe Bryant.

Your left with:

PG-Ben Gordon/Chris Duhon
SG-Kobe Bryant/Thabo Sefolosha
SF-Luol Deng/Andres Nocioni
PF-Joakim Noah/Andres Nocioni
C- Ben Wallace/MLE

This is the situation that makes the most sense. We hav plenty of scoring firepower, and we'll be left with a good bench.


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## RageofDaBulls (Feb 2, 2007)

Tyrus is going no where guys so all you EDIT - no personal attacks, please .can just stop that right now..

i dont think you can S&T 2 guys in one package(could be wrong tho)

im not going to waste my time or yours with some lame trade ideal,so ill just say this KOBE ISNT COMING HERE,AND NETHER IS ANY OTHER BIG TIME BALLA.


*Do not edit over a mod's edit -cpaw*


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Mebarak said:


> Ben Gordon has been the rock of this team for the past 3 years. He has been the only guy in the past 3 years that we could rely on to get it done for us. He has had some shortcomings, like in this past Pistons series, but he didn't disappear. For as bad as he was said to be in the Pistons series, his TS% was still a high 57.0, and that was being double teamed. Kirk was somewhere down in the 40's, at like 12 PPG somewhere down in the 40's. In addition, everyone rags on Gordon for his turnovers, but him and Kirk had the exact same number of turnovers in the playoffs. Wait....can we trust Kirk as our point guard then, since apparently Gordon turns it over too much to be the point guard.....so if Kirk turns it over just as much, he is unfit for the position.
> 
> At the end of the day, Ben Gordon was our best player in the regular season. Luol Deng 2nd best. Luol Deng was our best player in the playoffs, Ben Gordon the 2nd best.
> 
> ...


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## Brothaman33 (Feb 21, 2006)

^^^^^ lol

some thoughts...

Can Ben Gordon handle the PG position, and thats not just bringing the ball up the court, you have seen his miserable turn overs...

While Kobe would be the man to score, we still have no Big Man and we have no money...

Is Joakim Noah and 33 year old Ben Wallace enough up front?
I dont think Noah is a 12 and 10 guy... not in his 1st 3 years anyways. you lose tyrus and PJ is gone so we have and MLE, and a 6'7 Nocioni as backup big men?...

i dont like that at all


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Kobe + Bulls = Eastern Conference champions easily. 

Kobe + Deng and Gordon = NBA Champions.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> Kobe + Bulls = Eastern Conference champions easily.
> 
> Kobe + Deng and Gordon = NBA Champions.


I'm stunned that everyone is so willing to turn us into the Lakers east. No way we get Kobe Bryant without giving up the very pieces that make us better than the Lakers today. They aren't going to just GIVE him away, because we say so.:lol:


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

The Krakken said:


> I'm stunned that everyone is so willing to turn us into the Lakers east. No way we get Kobe Bryant without giving up the very pieces that make us better than the Lakers today. They aren't going to just GIVE him away, because we say so.:lol:


There's no denying that the Bulls would be a better team with Kobe at the shooting guard spot than they are now. Although the theory that "superstars" are necessary components of a championship team is based on correlation, not logic, there are advantages to having a player who has no fear of taking over a critical game in the fourth quarter -- and Kobe is a prime example of such a player. 

LA will have to trade him for less than he's "worth" if he demands it.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=666365&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=84

*WOW*

Whoever is that ONE team Kobe would approve of being traded to, then they gotta make a run hard at Kobe especially if Kobe burns all bridges a la Iverson. The best part is, you might get a great bargain for a HOF/Top Notch Player in his PRIME.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

The Lakers owner got arrested on a DUI. Apparently he was drinking over the Kobe trade demands.


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## KirkHinrich#12 (Mar 4, 2004)

What I don't get is Mebarak you so badly want to keep Lil Ben at no cost. Sure i'm a Hinrich fan, but from a rational standpoint keeping Kirk is a much smarter move when your talking Kobe. First off the Lakers are going to want to receive someone who can score a lot of points. So that right there will most likely mean either Gordon or Deng. The Bulls really don't want to depart with Deng. Sure Kirk can score, but a combo of Hinirch/Bryant would be unreal. Hinrich is the perfect compliment to Kobe. Secondly Hinrich is someone that Kobe has stated numerous times that he really likes. 

If I were making the trade I would send Gordon, Thabo, and #9 pick to the Lakers for Kobe.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

KirkHinrich#12 said:


> If I were making the trade I would send Gordon, Thabo, and #9 pick to the Lakers for Kobe.


I'd definitley do that. But if Pax has leverage, I rather throw in two future 1sts and keep the 9th.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

KirkHinrich#12 said:


> What I don't get is Mebarak you so badly want to keep Lil Ben at no cost. Sure i'm a Hinrich fan, but from a rational standpoint keeping Kirk is a much smarter move when your talking Kobe. First off the Lakers are going to want to receive someone who can score a lot of points. So that right there will most likely mean either Gordon or Deng. The Bulls really don't want to depart with Deng. Sure Kirk can score, but a combo of Hinirch/Bryant would be unreal. Hinrich is the perfect compliment to Kobe. Secondly Hinrich is someone that Kobe has stated numerous times that he really likes.
> 
> If I were making the trade I would send Gordon, Thabo, and #9 pick to the Lakers for Kobe.


your logic makes sense. Kobe would need a guard like Hinrich. LA would indeed want a scorer, or two. Logical two would be Gordon and a resigned Nocioni. Then add filler.


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## KirkHinrich#12 (Mar 4, 2004)

That is why I had Thabo instead of Noc, but either would work. Either way Gordon and a 1st round draft pick of some sort is in order... just depends on what year. If we can do without giving up the draft pick and give them a flier, GREAT!


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## laso (Jul 24, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> I'd definitley do that. But if Pax has leverage, I rather throw in two future 1sts and keep the 9th.


I don't think that gets it done, but if it does, it's the steal of the century. Especially if we keep 9.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned in this thread, I suspect that it has, but Kobe gave an incredibly inflammatory interview on AM 570 in Los Angeles today. It's the talk of the town. I didn't think there was a snowball's chance in hell he was on his way out of town before I heard the piece, but now I'm not so sure. He refuted the trade demand stuff but just sounded very fed up, emotional and frustrated. If he's going to stay in Los Angeles some fence mending has to happen.


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## tweedy (Apr 4, 2005)

jbulls said:


> I'm not sure if this has already been mentioned in this thread, I suspect that it has, but Kobe gave an incredibly inflammatory interview on AM 570 in Los Angeles today. It's the talk of the town. I didn't think there was a snowball's chance in hell he was on his way out of town before I heard the piece, but now I'm not so sure. He refuted the trade demand stuff but just sounded very fed up, emotional and frustrated. If he's going to stay in Los Angeles some fence mending has to happen.


http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18227/1h/cchannel.download.akamai.com/18227/podcast/LOSANGELES-CA/KLAC-AM/070529%20Kobe%20with%20PMS.mp3?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=LOSANGELES-CA&NG_FORMAT=sports&SITE_ID=727&STATION_ID=KLAC-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=AM_570&PCAST_CAT=Arts_%26_Entertainment&PCAST_TITLE=Interviews

It's pretty shocking for a player to speak so freely against his organization. His comments would be noteworthy even if he was on a different team and speaking about a former one. I encourage anyone interested in this thread to check out the audio. Kobe mentions his meeting with Bulls brass a few years ago, too.

His demeanor throughout the interview is very unsettling. Every time Petros and Money asked him about his future with the Lakers (and by the end the question was _Can this be salvaged?_) Kobe was noncommittal.

If the "one team" rumor is true, there's an awfully good chance it's the Bulls. He actually called the Bulls an organization that wants to win, a statement which directly opposes his apparent opinion of the Lakers.

edit: fixed link


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## AnaMayShun (Jun 22, 2002)

the link doesn't work.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

truebluefan said:


> your logic makes sense. Kobe would need a guard like Hinrich. LA would indeed want a scorer, or two. Logical two would be Gordon and a resigned Nocioni. Then add filler.


The thing is, that you just ignore what the Lakers want. You dictate what they want, and just wait for them to take the offer. Eventually they'll take your offer when Kobe is sitting out his 30th game. 

A few days ago, people were talking about how Ben Gordon would be best next to a big shooting guard with ball handling skills like Kobe, and Tracy McGrady....of course when the trade actually comes up, the Hinrich fans FLIP FLOP.

At the end of the day, Gordon is the better fit. Gordon has shown the ability to guard those quick point guards, while Hinrich has struggled mightily. Gordon is just such a significantly better player than Hinrich, that Gordon is easily the better fit. If Gordon was in the Stephon Marbury mold, it wouldn't work. But Gordon's not. He's an unselfish player, that will take over the game when he's needed too.

And whose going to hit the last shot? Kobe and his 20% on game winners? Maybe 1 in 5 times, but he won't hit as many of them as Gordon.

With Kobe, we will have the same exact thing. They'll leave Hinrich open, he will continue to clank jumpshot after jumpshot, while they double team Kobe. While with Ben, they won't be able to commit too much attention to either of them, allowing them to take their games to new levels. The double will probably have to come from the big men, giving alleyoops to Tyrus.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Mebarak said:


> A few days ago, people were talking about how Ben Gordon would be best next to a big shooting guard with ball handling skills like Kobe, and Tracy McGrady....of course when the trade actually comes up, the Hinrich fans FLIP FLOP.
> 
> At the end of the day, Gordon is the better fit. Gordon has shown the ability to guard those quick point guards, while Hinrich has struggled mightily. Gordon is just such a significantly better player than Hinrich, that Gordon is easily the better fit. If Gordon was in the Stephon Marbury mold, it wouldn't work. But Gordon's not. He's an unselfish player, that will take over the game when he's needed too.
> 
> ...












Ok Sloth, lets say hypothetically the Jazz just called up and said they'll take Hinrich or Gordon for Deron Williams. Who do you trade? Let me fill in the blank for you. Hinrich. Now lets say the Lakers call and said they'll take Hinrich or Gordon for Kobe. Who do you trade? Gordon. NOT! At least thats what you'd say. Most people are objective enough to see Hinrich would pair best with Kobe and Williams would pair best with Gordon, but I have no doubt you'd see Gordon pairing best with both.

I think the biggest point I'm amazed with is you seem to believe Gordon is somehow a better defender AND ball handler. I wouldn't expect you to give Hinrich any consideration for the beat down he takes for guarding the bigger and better offensive player all year long. Your arguments for Gordon are strikingly similar to your old arguments for Curry. You've just ratcheted up the volume.

And btw, didn't KC Johnson debunk the legend of Big Shot Ben around mid-season? Not only has Gordon been subpar in game winning situations, he's been pretty awful from what I remember if you throw out 2 or 3 Knicks games. And now you're suggesting with the game on the line you'd prefer Gordon over Kobe? Hey, I'm not a Kobe fan, but thats just plain insane. I'll take Kobe 10 out of 10 times with the game on the line over Ben.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Anybody see Mike & Mike show this morning? They were discussing the most likely Kobe trade scenarios with Tim Legler. Amazingly, Mike Greenberg (who loves our Bulls team, btw) proposed the *EXACT* same trade scenario that SausageKing brought up, one that I think is brilliant:

Bulls trade: Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Ben Wallace
Lakers trade: Kobe Bryant, Andrew Bynum

Greenwood said they explored alot of options and considered salary balancing (hence why Wallace is added). However, Legler the idiot was insistent that the Lakers wouldn't go for that. He said adding Bynum is too much. Then he gave us this crap that Ben Wallace is too old to have big value (as if Kobe is Mr. Youngling himself). Greenwood rebuttled that Gordon and especially Deng are the keys though, as both are young stars in the making. Legler says: "Duh, but neither will be the best player on a championship team, duh." 

What a moron. He thinks the Lakers are better off making a play for the aging Jason Kidd, but not to go after budding stars. On the other hand, I LOVE Mike Greenwood and how he notices what a great group of players the Bulls have. All around, he's the most rational and entertaining media guy on ESPN, IMO.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

yodurk said:


> Anybody see Mike & Mike show this morning? They were discussing the most likely Kobe trade scenarios with Tim Legler. Amazingly, Mike Greenberg (who loves our Bulls team, btw) proposed the *EXACT* same trade scenario that SausageKing brought up, one that I think is brilliant:
> 
> Bulls trade: Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Ben Wallace
> Lakers trade: Kobe Bryant, Andrew Bynum
> ...


That's a fair trade if LA is willing to part with Bynum. Guess it depends on how much they like Kwame.


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## laso (Jul 24, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Anybody see Mike & Mike show this morning? They were discussing the most likely Kobe trade scenarios with Tim Legler. Amazingly, Mike Greenberg (who loves our Bulls team, btw) proposed the *EXACT* same trade scenario that SausageKing brought up, one that I think is brilliant:
> 
> Bulls trade: Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Ben Wallace
> Lakers trade: Kobe Bryant, Andrew Bynum
> ...


Wallace gives you cap room in two years.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

wow, we were ----> <----- this close.
Bryant fires back at Lakers


> "The challenge is what it was all about for me," said Bryant, who negotiated a no-trade clause in his contract. "I told Dr. Buss - obviously, I was about to become a free agent - that I was interested in attacking the market. Chicago and the L.A. Clippers had better rosters. I was gone until Dr. Buss called me from vacation in Italy promising me he was not going to wait five years to rebuild, that he was going to rebuild right now. I trusted him.


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## Bulldozer (Jul 11, 2006)

Lets hope Kobe goes all the way through and pulls a "AI"...If we somehow get Bryant for just a little more than Gordon, I might commit blasphemy against lord MJ thats how much I'd be geekin'!!!


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

Kobe just asked to be traded. WOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On Stephen A Smith show. Asked him right before he left "Is there anything the Lakers can do to change your mind?"

Kobe: "NO"

:eek8:


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2886927

Here's the link.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

wow! thanks for the heads up.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Wow. This seems to be just getting worse and worse very quickly. It should be interesting to see if Kobe gets his wish.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

I really hate to see Gordon go because I think he's been the main reason we've been winning these past 3 years, but at least now I'd have reason to actually root for the hometown team. 

Call me crazy/homeristic/kool-aided, but I think his presence correlates to winning more than Kobe. 

Kobe might be a greater individual player in ALL aspects, but even though he does try and pass he also gets his points because his teams depend entirely on him. 

The Bulls do not. Our offense does depend on him to CATALYZE, that is set everyone off. If you get Ben going even just a little bit, then you have a really good chance of winning. If Kobe doesn't score like he usually does and has been in the game, the Lakers usually have no chance at all. 

If we pulled off a Gordon/Deng/Wallace switch, it would be basically pulling the plug on the winning we have established (notice that we didn't do too much winning around 2003 with Captain Kirk Hinrich before the drafting of Ben/Deng/signing of Noc) and the Lakers would've made off with a steal. Andrew Bynum is OK, but probably not going to be any better than Eddy Curry. With our new team, we'd be a Conference Final team at best and that's probably pushing it.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

Kobe Bryant- "I want to be traded, there's no other alternative, yes I want out" 

steven a smith- "Is there anything the lakers can do to keep you in the organization"

Kobe bryant- "NO"

holy crap


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## Ragingbull33 (Apr 10, 2005)

let's all hold hands and wisf for kobe( at a reasonable price)


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

I want no part of Kobe here in Chicago. There's no way I can root for the guy even if he plays for the franchise I've rooted for my entire life. Don't get involved in this, Pax.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

It's crazy that Kobe is apparently demanding a trade and the Bulls are likely the team he's angling to be dealt to. Still, as great a player as he is, my stance is pretty much the same as with KG and Gasol. If you trade two of the big three, the team won't improve much or at all because we're giving up so much and if you trade one of the big three along with all our best assets for the future (Tyrus and the #9) then we only have a window of a few years to win a Championship and a team that's probably not good enough to win one. 

I think the obvious member of the core to move would be Gordon since he plays Kobe's position. From there I'd look to offer combinations of Tyrus, Thabo, the #9 and a Noc sign and trade. You'd have to consider your leverage though. If Kobe says "I demand to be traded to the Chicago Bulls," you might as well play hardball. 



Mebarak said:


> At the end of the day, Gordon is the better fit. Gordon has shown the ability to guard those quick point guards, while Hinrich has struggled mightily. Gordon is just such a significantly better player than Hinrich, that Gordon is easily the better fit. If Gordon was in the Stephon Marbury mold, it wouldn't work. But Gordon's not. He's an unselfish player, that will take over the game when he's needed too.


I wouldn't want BG or Kobe playing PG. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that BG is defensively better than Kirk under any circumstances.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

as long as we dont need to blow up the team to get kobe... we need to do this... this would solve a lot of problems... mainly the backcourt size problem, closing out games, having a go to guy, etc... kobe solves a lot of on the court problems... plus I don't think he's as bad as of guy as everyone makes him out to be... he just wants to win... he fits PERFECTLY here


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Regardless of anyone's hateful feelings toward Kobe, Paxson has to open some dialogue with Lakers brass if we're serious about winning a championship. This might be the rare opportunity that we've been waiting for to snag a top caliber player. 

Now granted, it would pain me greatly to give up Luol Deng in a trade. Deng is the absolute last player I would give up, but if that's all that can be done then so be it. I'm interested to see if Pax can negotiate a nice deal from our end. It goes without saying that he's interested, and I'm about 80% certain that Kobe would green light a trade here.


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## KGBULLS06 (May 24, 2006)

I have been a longtime Kobe hater, just because I think he is cocky and not an overal team player. But I do admit he is a top 3 player in this league. I would only pull the trigger for a deal consisting of.
Kirk Hinrick, Loul Deng and #9 pick
for
Kobe Bryant

That leaves the Bulls with
Ben Gordon pg
Kobe sg
Noce sf
Tyrus pf
Ben W. Center

Ben Gordon would be the ideal player beside Kobe, would be Mr. Clutch. hinrick cannot hit the open shot to save his life. I think Noce would come back for a cheap deal, b/c I believe he has created a good fan base and wants to stay and win. But our biggest problem, who is going to score down low???? Same question as we have talked about before.


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## Bulldozer (Jul 11, 2006)

SPMJ said:


> I want no part of Kobe here in Chicago. There's no way I can root for the guy even if he plays for the franchise I've rooted for my entire life. Don't get involved in this, Pax.


Think about it for a sec. The Bulls will arguably have had the best 2 players of all time when its all said and done. There's no doubt in my mind, the Bulls will win another title and more with Kobe a Bull. Whats not to like about Kobe, besides the fact he's a wannabe MJ _(which all will be forgiven if KB comes here, when he gets labeled his "*HEIR*ness")_? I hope you're not one of those that buy into the whole "raping" of the ugly woman thing....


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

KGBULLS06 said:


> I have been a longtime Kobe hater, just because I think he is cocky and not an overal team player. But I do admit he is a top 3 player in this league. I would only pull the trigger for a deal consisting of.
> Kirk Hinrick, Loul Deng and #9 pick
> for
> Kobe Bryant
> ...


personally I'd love to get any deal done involving: 
Hinrich, Thomas, #9, Noc, Duhon, etc

If we can some how keep Ben and Deng while getting Kobe I think that would be a finals-worthy trio


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

I'd trade almost any combination of players exluding Tyrus and the pick.

Deng + Gordon + Wallace + 2008 pick for Kobe + Mihm? Tough call, we'd be giving up a lot, but I'd do it.

Hinrich
Kobe
Deng
Tyrus
Noah

Duhon, Thabo, Mihm off the bench. Done and done. We're losing some serious defense in the frontcourt, but we're gaining one guy that at least plays sort of tall (Mihm) to complement two quicker big guys (Tyrus and Noah).

Farmar
Gordon
Deng
Odom
Wallace

Smushy, Walton, Turiaf, Kwame, Bynum, V-Rad off the bench.

(I think V-Rad is the coolest iteration of the first initial/first syllable abbreviation and he's a patently uncool guy, so why not? Wouldn't it be cool if it started becoming popular and people started using it?)


It's a good starting five, something to build on, and they certainly have enough size to compete in the West. The team really is built around a dynamic guard like Kobe, but I think Farmar and Gordon can get the job done. Maybe they can get lucky and a guy like Acie Law will still be on the board at 19... very possible.

dat jawn is maaad tite v-rad


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> It's crazy that Kobe is apparently demanding a trade and the Bulls are likely the team he's angling to be dealt to. Still, as great a player as he is, my stance is pretty much the same as with KG and Gasol. If you trade two of the big three, the team won't improve much or at all because we're giving up so much and if you trade one of the big three along with all our best assets for the future (Tyrus and the #9) then we only have a window of a few years to win a Championship and a team that's probably not good enough to win one.
> 
> I think the obvious member of the core to move would be Gordon since he plays Kobe's position. From there I'd look to offer combinations of Tyrus, Thabo, the #9 and a Noc sign and trade. You'd have to consider your leverage though. If Kobe says "I demand to be traded to the Chicago Bulls," you might as well play hardball.
> .


Jeremy, I usually agree with you but I just can't compare Kobe to Gasol. I think we CAN give up 2 of our core and still be more than ok. We're a deeper team that we get credit for. 

To complete this trade, I think there are 2 guys we must throw in: Gordon & Wallace. Gordon is a no-brainer (despite sloth's arguments). His value his high as a blossuming 20 ppg scorer. He's on a small contract. He replaces Kobe as the primary backcourt scorer. He'll sell tickets. Really an easy choice. Wallace needs to go for salary purposes...I just don't see any way to make the trade work otherwise.

The question is, what else do we throw in? What do the Lakers throw in, if anything? I'm not sure the Lakers would quite go for just Gordon & Wallace. (And it would be nice to get a center back in return, even if it's a bum like Chris Mihm).


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

the rich get richer....1st Mike,...now possibly Kobe.


ugh!...Im jealous


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

theyoungsrm said:


> i assuming that bulls posters have a terrible rep as homers around this site, outside of the bulls forum.
> 
> those may have been unfair generalizations before, but we have certainly earned them now.
> 
> ...


I hear ya, but I'm not too interested in getting Kobe and then not being in a position to win with him. Kobe is still a top 5 to 10 player, but he's probably only got 3-4 years of really high level play left IMO. Maybe what Big Ben's got. But we still don't have a very complete team with Kobe if we trade Gordon and Lou.

We've got Kirk, Ben, Kobe, and presumably Noc, but the Bulls view Noc more as a 4 than a 3 and more as a backup than a starter. A key backup, but still. Ty didn't look ready to be a ull time player to me and it'd be pretty unfair to assume our draft pick would be, assuming we didn't have to move either of them to get the deal done.

So you get Kobe for those guys and then what? You've got a couple years left to put together a team and have a ways to go to do it.

That doesn't mean I'm opposed to getting him, but I think from the perspective of actually winning once we got him, we can't give up Wallace, Deng or Kirk. Everyone else is expendable, but you need to keep those 3 and you've at least got 4 of the 5 guys you need to field a team. Since Noc probably can't and wouldn't be in a deal, you've really got 5. You just need a solid starting PF and you're pretty close to where you want to be.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

Sorry if this has been discussed, but how do we make salary work without including Deng, Kirk, or Wallace?


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Kobe is the best player in the NBA hands down, the Bulls can make this trade happen without giving up Ben or Deng. It will cost the Bulls multiple first round draft picks and Tyrus Thomas and probably Kirk Hinrich and cap filler but if you come out of this trade with Luol Deng, Ben Gordon and Kobe Bryant on your starting 5 then you can just hand the Bulls the eastern conference title. There is no such thing as equal value in trades for Superstars the Bulls would probably be trading more to get a guy like Pau Gasol who is a fringe superstar then they would for a guy like Kobe. 

I dont see Kobe wanting anything to do with the Knicks but they have tons of salary cap guys and enough trade bait to make a Kobe trade possible, New Jersey has a few pieces, Boston has a high draft pick and Paul Pierce but Kobe is not going to want to play there. If Kobe trully wants to win a championship then he will want to get out of the west and come play for the Bulls.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

SecretAgentGuy said:


> Sorry if this has been discussed, but how do we make salary work without including Deng, Kirk, or Wallace?


Well, Deng is still on his rookie deal, so he's not going to help a ton.

The only other good ways that I see to send salary out besides Wallace (and Kirk, but I don't know how the BYC thing works) is to re-sign Nocioni or PJ to big contracts and trade them.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I think the obvious member of the core to move would be Gordon since he plays Kobe's position. From there I'd look to offer combinations of Tyrus, Thabo, the #9 and a Noc sign and trade. You'd have to consider your leverage though. If Kobe says "I demand to be traded to the Chicago Bulls," you might as well play hardball.



i think any combo *save* Hinrich/Deng/Wallace for Kobe is something Pax has to consider. 




> I wouldn't want BG or Kobe playing PG. *This is the first time I've ever heard anyone suggest that BG is defensively better than Kirk under any circumstances.*



then you must have missed the press release where BG made the " Sloth's All-NBA Defense Imaginary First Team". Eddy's on there too. 

:laugh:


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

SecretAgentGuy said:


> Sorry if this has been discussed, but how do we make salary work without including Deng, Kirk, or Wallace?


It's nearly impossible to do this trade without adding Ben Wallace. The only alternative I'm aware of is, a) waiting until July so we can do a sign-and-trade with Nocioni or someone else (and even that might not do it), or b) using a ridiculous number of players to try and balance the salary out (i.e. Griffin, Allen, Khryapa, etc).


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

I think the big trick for me would be to see if there is a trade that does not give away Ben Wallace and still can make salaries work. Trading for Kobe would be the ultimate "win now" move, as that term is used around here. Even with Bryant, I wonder how much damage you could do with Tyrus and ??? as your starting bigs. I assume that the pick would go to LA in any deal. PJ might be re-signed, but also may well be signed and traded. The only way I see it working is if the deal was expanded to have Wallace going out and Kwame Brown (yikes!) or Bynum coming back in.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Jeremy, I usually agree with you but I just can't compare Kobe to Gasol. I think we CAN give up 2 of our core and still be more than ok. We're a deeper team that we get credit for.
> 
> To complete this trade, I think there are 2 guys we must throw in: Gordon & Wallace. Gordon is a no-brainer (despite sloth's arguments). His value his high as a blossuming 20 ppg scorer. He's on a small contract. He replaces Kobe as the primary backcourt scorer. He'll sell tickets. Really an easy choice. Wallace needs to go for salary purposes...I just don't see any way to make the trade work otherwise.
> 
> The question is, what else do we throw in? What do the Lakers throw in, if anything? I'm not sure the Lakers would quite go for just Gordon & Wallace. (And it would be nice to get a center back in return, even if it's a bum like Chris Mihm).


I think what has to happen is Brown either needs to be extended (I've read the CBA and i don't see any reason his contract couldn't be extended for a year and then he could be traded) or, if that's not legal, we could wait until July 1st to actually do the deal and do a sign and trade using him to match salaries.

In other words, the salary issue can be worked out in a month at most, so why would the teams include a player like Wallace who the Lakers wouldn't want and the Bulls wouldn't want to give up?


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## Qwerty123 (May 31, 2002)

Here's one that works without Wallace's contract. It basically leaves us with no bench and launches us into luxury tax territory once we extend Deng, but I like this option better than anything with Gordon _and_ Deng in it.

Gordon, Thomas, Sefolosha, Duhon, Griffin, and Khryapa
for
Bryant and Farmar
(after the July moratorium, or before if you exclude Farmar)

Bulls lineup:
Hinrich, Farmar
Bryant, ?
Deng, Nocioni
Brown?, #9
Wallace, ?

If that's not enough from LA's perspective, I would offer next year's pick or swap picks with them this year. As it is though, that's 3 lottery picks for Kobe. As for other variations, I don't think including Wallace makes sense from either team's perspective. LA would be rebuilding and wouldn't want an aging and overpaid veteran. And for us, no matter who you trade, you're going for the title immediately, and Wallace would be a big help. Our bench would obviously be an issue that shouldn't be forgotten or downplayed, but I'd rather be in a position of trying to build a bench than trying to find a starter to put us over the top (as would be the case if the trade includes Gordon, Deng, and Wallace).


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> I think the big trick for me would be to see if there is a trade that does not give away Ben Wallace and still can make salaries work. Trading for Kobe would be the ultimate "win now" move, as that term is used around here. Even with Bryant, I wonder how much damage you could do with Tyrus and ??? as your starting bigs. I assume that the pick would go to LA in any deal. PJ might be re-signed, but also may well be signed and traded. The only way I see it working is if the deal was expanded to have Wallace going out and Kwame Brown (yikes!) or Bynum coming back in.


I hear ya...my concerns exactly. 

Regarding Tyrus Thomas, I think bringing Kobe here would expedite his development tremendously. There would be so much attention on Kobe, that Thomas could get so many open dunks it would be ridiculous. He's already pretty decent on the boards and defensively. 

The challenge is, who plays center? Assuming that Wallace gets added for cap purposes, I think it's a MUST to make a play for Bynum while we're at it. This might get done if we utilize our #9 draft pick, or maybe even future 1st rounders. 

I honestly think Hinrich/Kobe/Nocioni/Tyrus/Bynum would be an excellent team. But like I said, I'd do just about anything to keep Deng around.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> Well, Deng is still on his rookie deal, so he's not going to help a ton.
> 
> The only other good ways that I see to send salary out besides Wallace (and Kirk, but I don't know how the BYC thing works) is to re-sign Nocioni or PJ to big contracts and trade them.


So we need PJ to agree to sign a large, non-guaranteed contract and hope he agrees to moving to LA and get cut? Color me skeptical on that one. Wallace or Kirk are out and my guess it's Kirk. And even then, I'm not sure we have the salaries + package of players that makes things work for both sides. This is looking like it will require a third team.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> I think what has to happen is Brown either needs to be extended (I've read the CBA and i don't see any reason his contract couldn't be extended for a year and then he could be traded) or, if that's not legal, we could wait until July 1st to actually do the deal and do a sign and trade using him to match salaries.
> 
> In other words, the salary issue can be worked out in a month at most, so why would the teams include a player like Wallace who the Lakers wouldn't want and the Bulls wouldn't want to give up?


Wouldn't Brown have to agree to those things? If he's serious about retiring, I find it unlikely. I guess Nocioni might be ok with it, since potentially it lands him more money.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

yodurk said:


> Jeremy, I usually agree with you but I just can't compare Kobe to Gasol. I think we CAN give up 2 of our core and still be more than ok. We're a deeper team that we get credit for.


Yeah, I dunno. I think a Hinrich/Kobe/Noc/Tyrus/Wallace lineup is better than what the Lakers threw out there this year and probably better than our team from this season but not by an awful lot. Removing 40 PPG on a somewhat offensively challenged team would mean that Kobe would still be forced to shoulder most of the scoring load and if someone went down with an injury, we wouldn't have much depth to fall back on.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

In a trade for Kobe, I would consider the following as our tradeable assets: Gordon, Thomas, Thabo, #9, and Noc. I'd give up any of the 4, as long as we can keep one of Thomas, Noc, or the #9 pick to keep some type of frontcourt depth.

After that, it's probably Mikki Moore or bust because the 4 spot would look awful otherwise.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

Look like Kobe wants out...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2886927

Boy. Is this summer going to be interesting!


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## madox (Jan 6, 2004)

Make adjustments as necessary w/ draft picks or some smaller contracts or whatever.

Chicago Trade Breakdown 
Outgoing 
Ben Wallace
6-9 C from Virginia Union
6.4 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 2.4 apg in 35.0 minutes 
Ben Gordon
6-3 SG from Connecticut
21.4 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 3.6 apg in 33.0 minutes 
Thabo Sefolosha
6-5 SG from Switzerland (Foreign)
3.6 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 0.9 apg in 12.2 minutes 
Incoming 
Kobe Bryant
6-6 SG from Lower Merion (HS)
31.6 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.4 apg in 40.8 minutes 
Change in team outlook: +0.2 ppg, -10.2 rpg, and -1.5 apg. 


L.A. Lakers Trade Breakdown 
Outgoing 
Kobe Bryant
6-6 SG from Lower Merion (HS)
31.6 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 5.4 apg in 40.8 minutes 
Incoming 
Ben Gordon
6-3 SG from Connecticut
21.4 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 3.6 apg in 33.0 minutes 
Shawn Marion
6-7 PF from UNLV
17.5 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 1.7 apg in 37.6 minutes 
Change in team outlook: +7.3 ppg, +7.2 rpg, and -0.1 apg. 


Phoenix Trade Breakdown 
Outgoing 
Shawn Marion
6-7 PF from UNLV
17.5 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 1.7 apg in 37.6 minutes 
Incoming 
Ben Wallace
6-9 C from Virginia Union
6.4 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 2.4 apg in 35.0 minutes 
Thabo Sefolosha
6-5 SG from Switzerland (Foreign)
3.6 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 0.9 apg in 12.2 minutes 
Change in team outlook: -7.5 ppg, +3.0 rpg, and +1.6 apg. 



Bulls resign Nocioni and draft a big:

Hinrich, Duhon
Kobe, Griff
Deng, Noc
Noc, Tyrus
Noah? , PJ

or maybe it would be better to sign a big instead of Nocioni even though Noc is the man, cause that team doesn't have many bigs and I don't think Tyrus is a 30+ mpg player yet. I don't know what bigs we could sign though.


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

Ben Wallace is not going to LA in this deal. If they trade Kobe, they are rebuilding. Ben and his huge 3 year deal don't help in any way. I'm sure something can be arranged, though it's going to be really complicated.


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## madox (Jan 6, 2004)

Wallace was going to Phoenix not LA. 

Iwas just thinking though, if only we still had Chandler a deal could be very workable.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

madox said:


> Make adjustments as necessary w/ draft picks or some smaller contracts or whatever.
> 
> Chicago Trade Breakdown
> Outgoing
> ...


I like this 3-way. Looks pretty good for everyone. Getting Matrix + Gordon isn't too shabby for LA.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

I have a question for any CBA gurus out there. Are NBA teams prohibited from making trades after the season ends and before the draft? I can't recall ever seeing a trade done after the end of the regular season but before the draft. The primary reason I ask is that if a deal could be done prior to June 30, 2007, then isn't it feasable that you could still trade PJ and Sweetney since they would, technically, be under contract still and not UFA? I know you can't trade RFA's prior to July 15th (sign and trades) but if the player is eligible to be a UFA, could he be moved in a deal prior to June 30th? Is a trade before the draft even permissable under the current CBA?


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

fl_flash said:


> I have a question for any CBA gurus out there. Are NBA teams prohibited from making trades after the season ends and before the draft? I can't recall ever seeing a trade done after the end of the regular season but before the draft. The primary reason I ask is that if a deal could be done prior to June 30, 2007, then isn't it feasable that you could still trade PJ and Sweetney since they would, technically, be under contract still and not UFA? I know you can't trade RFA's prior to July 15th (sign and trades) but if the player is eligible to be a UFA, could he be moved in a deal prior to June 30th? Is a trade before the draft even permissable under the current CBA?



At least in the old CBA, I remember it said you could trade players, just not ones w/ ending contracts or team/player options.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

ChiBulls2315 said:


> Ben Wallace is not going to LA in this deal. If they trade Kobe, they are rebuilding. Ben and his huge 3 year deal don't help in any way. I'm sure something can be arranged, though it's going to be really complicated.


Not sure I agree with that...they would turn down a productive big man so that they can intentionally field a bad team?

Oh, and I second madox's 3-way trade. If that works cap-wise, I'd go for it. Getting Kobe without losing Deng, Nocioni, Hinrich, Tyrus, OR the draft pick would be amazing. 

The key would be luring a decent big man or two in free agency (and of course, using our draft pick on a backup big like Hawes).


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

ChiBulls2315 said:


> At least in the old CBA, I remember it said you could trade players, just not ones w/ ending contracts or team/player options.


I used ESPN's trade checker a few minutes ago, and that's the exact footnote next to Brown and Nocioni's names. Hinrich also has the BYC restriction listed.


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Not sure I agree with that...they would turn down a productive big man so that they can intentionally field a bad team?
> 
> Oh, and I second madox's 3-way trade. If that works cap-wise, I'd go for it. Getting Kobe without losing Deng, Nocioni, Hinrich, Tyrus, OR the draft pick would be amazing.
> 
> The key would be luring a decent big man or two in free agency (and of course, using our draft pick on a backup big like Hawes).



A big man that's owed what, like 44 million over the next 3 years on the decline of his career? Yes I firmly believe there's no way they take him. Yeah he still very productive but that doesn't justify taking him on in their situation. They can field a decent team w/ Bynum, Odom, and whoever else they get back but Ben Wallace doesn't make any sense IMO. That doesn't make sense when they aren't going to compete for a championship. Ben would pretty much have a negative trade value there. 

They're not going to intentionally field a bad team. They pretty much can't b/c of what type of players they could get for Kobe, from us anyway. But it certainly wouldn't be the first time a team has done that. I just don't see them be interested in Wallace if they deal Kobe.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Wish lists being mentioned on the Lakers board :biggrin: 

Oden + Roy

Gasol + Gay

Lebron

Wade

Durant + Rashard Lewis

Gordon + Deng + filler

Deng + Thomas + Hinrich

Hinrich + Deng + Wallace (for Kobe + filler)

Gordon + Thabo + Tyrus + 1st rounder (for Kobe + filler)

Nocioni + Gordon/Kirk + Deng (for Kobe + filler)

Dwight Howard

Bosh


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

Answered my own question here... http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#85

Teams are free to make trades after their season ends but cannot trade contracts that will expire or may expire due to a player or team option...

Ah well. I was curious to see if there was any way to utilize PJ's contract as instant cap savings.

As an aside, I'd do that three team trade also. I just don't see why Pheonix does.


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## ChiBulls2315 (Aug 11, 2002)

Now on Dan Patrick show, he kind of went backwards a bit. He still said he wants to be traded. But he said bringing West to the Lakers would "certainly help" the situationin LA. And he ended by saying he always wanted to retire and a Laker and wishes something could be done for that to happen. He just has no trust in the Lakers right now.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Mr. T said:


> Wish lists being mentioned on the Lakers board :biggrin:
> 
> Oden + Roy
> 
> ...


Oh my... Looks like they're forgetting about Kobe's veto power on this trade. I'm sure Kobe would be thrilled to be on a Roy-less/Oden-less Blazer team. Or how about Howard-less Orlando team? Hilarious...


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

ChiBulls2315 said:


> Now on Dan Patrick show, he kind of went backwards a bit. He still said he wants to be traded. But he said bringing West to the Lakers would "certainly help" the situationin LA. And he ended by saying he always wanted to retire and a Laker and wishes something could be done for that to happen. He just has no trust in the Lakers right now.


He wanted Shaq out. He got Shaq out. We wanted Phil gone. Phil was gone. He gave his blessing before Phil came back. Now he is saying bring in West or he wants out.

Man, Kobe -- shut up already. You are a hell of a good player, but you are a player. Not the boss.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-24-131/Kobe-Bryant-Says-He-d-Like-to-be-Traded.html

Who might you offer for Kobe Bryant? Forget your traditional "never trade with a rival" rule for a moment, and let's just brainstorm (I have not worked all these out on the trade machine yet):

<LI _extended="true">Chicago will be there with a package that stars Luol Deng and several other bits and pieces (like Tyrus Thomas and Ben Wallace perhaps?). <LI _extended="true">Isiah Thomas is, I'd imagine, on the phone with James Dolan right now saying please, please, please, pretty please daddy can you buy this for me? What could they offer? How about ALL OF THE KNICKS. Probably not enough, but maybe. <LI _extended="true">Here's a crazy idea that would never happen: what about Tracy McGrady? The Lakers get to keep selling tickets and get a player coming into his prime, the Rockets get to re-shuffle and see if the Yao formula works better with a different wingman. <LI _extended="true">The Lakers could take their pick of the Boston roster, I'd imagine, although getting Bryant to join a decimated version of the worst team in the league could be tough. (UPDATE: Here's a "for instance" version. The teams might also swap first round picks. The problem here, I'm guessing, is the Bryant might not like it.) <LI _extended="true">Portland could offer Brandon Roy and Zach Randolph. Not that they should, or would (it monkeys with the schedule ... when does a Bryant/Oden team peak?), but it would have to be taken seriously. <LI _extended="true">Many in Dallas have already written they'd dangle Dirk Nowitzki.
<LI _extended="true">Kobe Bryant might not mind being traded to the Clippers, who have some nice pieces. But would he like to play for a version of the Clippers that lacked Elton Brand, which is probably what it would take to get him? <LI _extended="true">Phoenix is coached by Kobe Bryant's boyhood idol, and I have to believe he'd love to be paired with a great point guard. The Lakers might go for Amare Stoudemire, but it says here that he's a base-year compensation player which makes that tough, so L.A. would have to fall in love with a Shawn Marion (and, perhaps, Boris Diaw and picks?) package. If I were Mitch Kupchak calling, I'd ask for Steve Nash and change. <LI _extended="true">Ideas from the comments include a Gilbert Arenas package from Washington. I think there's a decent chance the Lakers and Kobe Bryant balk at this, as neither, in my estimation, would end up winners. <LI _extended="true">To Minnesota for Kevin Garnett? (I wish Bryant and Garnett could somehow play together, but I don't see how it could happen. The irony would be that if Garnett is a Laker, where would Bryant rather play? Yet another example why, if you want to win titles, you are better off not having a max contract. Too hard to end up alongside other stars.) 
Denver has those two big stars, but what does that add up to? How do you configure something that the Lakers want? It would have to be Carmelo Anthony-based I would think, but then you're asking Bryant to co-star with Allen Iverson? That's the craziest thing anyone has ever imagined. And hasn't Colorado had enough of Kobe Bryant?
More thoughts to come.
UPDATE: From ESPN's NBA Research and Information Specialist Peter D. Newmann:
When Bryant signed his free-agent contract on July 15, 2004, a seven-year deal worth $136.4 million, a no-trade clause was built into his contract. He is the only player in the NBA that has a no-trade clause in his contract. He has a no-trade clause for at least two more seasons, at which time he can opt out of his current contract (after the 2008-09 season). If he exercises his option to become a free agent, he would walk away from a combined $47.8 million for the 2009-10 and 2010-11 seasons. The only way the Lakers could trade Bryant is if he waived his no-trade clause, which means the team would need Bryant's approval to trade him.​And more from Mike Bresnahan in the L.A. Times:
Bryant will obviously waive his no-trade clause, but he has a trade kicker in his contract that is believed to add about $13 million to his total contract value, a cost to be absorbed by any team that acquires him. The money would be paid like a signing bonus and would not count toward the salary cap. The Lakers had to pay a similar fee to Lamar Odom when they acquired him from Miami three years ago, paying him about $8 million.​It's going to be very tough to accomodate Bryant's trade request. My bet is that only a very small number of teams have anything even close to the talent, salaries, and cash to make a real offer.
UPDATE: The more I think about it, the more I am convinced the Lakers will only agree to a deal that gets them a young star.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> He wanted Shaq out. He got Shaq out. We wanted Phil gone. Phil was gone. He gave his blessing before Phil came back. Now he is saying bring in West or he wants out.
> 
> Man, Kobe -- shut up already. You are a hell of a good player, but you are a player. Not the boss.


Except, if you believe the recent reports, none of that business about Shaq is true.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Except, if you believe the recent reports, none of that business about Shaq is true.



Oh, yeah, I should mention...I don't believe the recent reports.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Oh, yeah, I should mention...I don't believe the recent reports.


Not sure if you heard this, but Shaq actually backed up Kobe. Which actually says something considering Shaq was the one being traded, and doesn't exactly have love for Kobe.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

And it was pointed out in another article that the Lakers organization has not denied that the conversation (as described) between Kobe and Buss took place. Perhaps that is merely hinging on Buss sobering up first.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Did anyone else actually watch last season? 

The only people who get it are the people saying Deng, Gordon, and Kobe are a championship trio. 

Do people forget that Gordon and Deng carried us all year? In so many games Hinrich would just disappear, miss open shots, our frontcourt was nonexistent for most of the years.

I honestly, for the love of god, cannot figure out why people want to protect players like Hinrich and Tyrus from getting traded given their skill level.

Big Ben will not get traded. So you basically have 4 spots figured out, PG/SG/SF/C. And we improved our backcourt.

Gordon > Hinrich
Kobe > Gordon
Luol Deng > Last Years Deng
Wallace = Wallace (or maybe he gets better, he can't get worse).

I still think the right trade to do is:

Bulls Trade:

Kirk Hinrich
Tyrus Thomas
PJ Brown (Sign and Traded, 9.5 million (less than 20% raise so he's not BYC)
Viktar Khryapa
2008 Pick

Lakers Trade:

Kobe Bryant
Vladmir Radmanovic

Basically Lakers get two young players. A draft pick. They get out of Vlad's contract, and have capspace for next offseason.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> Did anyone else actually watch last season?
> 
> The only people who get it are the people saying Deng, Gordon, and Kobe are a championship trio.


Sloth, you are not the arbiter who who "gets it" and who doesn't, so you can withhold judgment, thanks.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

I think everyone is overlooking the promising package the Knicks can offer for Kobe. If only they still had one player. To quote Sloth, it could have been the "perfect storm" of a trade. Damn, where's Jalen Rose when you need him. 


Kobe 

for

Curry, Crawford, Rose

I mean, how could the Lakers pass on young building blocks like those and a key vet like Jalen?

:yay:


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Mebarak said:


> I still think the right trade to do is:
> 
> Bulls Trade:
> 
> ...


And based on your post count growing exponentially in the last couple of days stating the same trade over and over and over --- I'm pretty sure everybody here "gets it". :biggrin:


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Mebarak said:


> Did anyone else actually watch last season?


I did. But based on your analysis we CLEARLY weren't watching the same thing. :lol:


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## Gordon7 (May 24, 2006)

im with you Mebarak on this trade. you gotta keep Gordon and Deng in this trade... also Kobe has gotta approve the trade the lakers make.. you think he'll still wanna come here if BG and Deng arent here...


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Sloth, I see no way that we convince PJ Brown to do us a favor by sign and trading him to a team that he doesn't want to play for. You can't just say "Ben Wallace isn't getting traded...". There's simply no way to make it work cap-wise without getting a 3rd team involved. See madox's 3-way with Phoenix for a good proposition.

It's not that we are "protecting" Hinrich or Tyrus; it's about getting the Lakers to bite on something. Yeah, Kobe has veto power, but that doesn't mean the Lakers are just gonna give him away. Dr. Buss has a pretty big ego, too, ya know. He would tell Kobe to shove it and sit out a season before pulling the trigger on a sub-par trade.


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## Smez86 (Jun 29, 2006)

I personally believe that Gordon is a better player than Hinrich. But in the playoffs, Hinrich clearly showed that he was the better point guard. Plus, BG was a defensive liability for the entire Pistons series, forcing Hinrich to switch over to Billups (at which point Rip began to light it up).

That being said, when you have a PG and SG, why would you trade the PG for another SG? That logic is horrible.

And don't tell me "of course Ben can play PG, weren't you watching" because no, Ben cannot play PG. The man can barely stand up straight. He should be a catch and shoot, Allan Houston in his prime type player. If we made a trade for a post player, THEN keeping Gordon would make sense. But not when trading for a SG.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Mebarak said:


> I still think the right trade to do is:
> 
> Bulls Trade:
> 
> ...


And since you brought up the trade AGAIN Sloth, have you resolved the issues Petey brought up?

http://www.basketballforum.com/los-angeles-lakers/360739-trading-kobe-bean-bryant-2.html#post4783101

It was mentioned that a S&T of PJ would have to be a 3-yr deal. If Petey's correct and I'm leaning his way over yours, who on this planet would sign PJ to not only 3 yrs, but a large enough dollar amount to matter?


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Mr. T said:


> I think everyone is overlooking the promising package the Knicks can offer for Kobe. If only they still had one player. To quote Sloth, it could have been the "perfect storm" of a trade. Damn, where's Jalen Rose when you need him.
> 
> 
> Kobe
> ...


Isn't "The Rose that Grew from Concrete" playing in Phoenix nowadays? Well, I use the term "playing" loosely.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

yodurk said:


> Sloth, I see no way that we convince PJ Brown to do us a favor by sign and trading him to a team that he doesn't want to play for. You can't just say "Ben Wallace isn't getting traded...". There's simply no way to make it work cap-wise without getting a 3rd team involved. See madox's 3-way with Phoenix for a good proposition.


I can think of about 9 million reasons why PJ would accept the trade.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

jnrjr79 said:


> I can think of about 9 million reasons why PJ would accept the trade.


I can think of one non-guaranteed reason why he wouldn't.

Regardless, Petey's point is a good one - can we sign and trade PJ to a year deal at $9 million? Sloth's deal isn't too bad assuming the Lakers would accept it. I'd imagine we'd have to throw in Sefolosha as well but I can live with Ben at PG provided we keep Duhon. Vlad means Nocioni walks.


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## Orange Julius Irving (Jun 28, 2004)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> He wanted Shaq out. He got Shaq out. We wanted Phil gone. Phil was gone. He gave his blessing before Phil came back. Now he is saying bring in West or he wants out.
> 
> Man, Kobe -- shut up already. You are a hell of a good player, but you are a player. Not the boss.



I thought Phil drove Jerry West out of LA, just like he tried to drive Jerry Krause out of Chicago.

Hey, MJ tried to be the boss too but ended up leaving and everyone hated Jerry Krause for it, not MJ so Kobe should be on safe ground.

Interesting too that Shaq believes Kobe about not wanting him to leave.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Smez86 said:


> I personally believe that Gordon is a better player than Hinrich. But in the playoffs, Hinrich clearly showed that he was the better point guard. Plus, BG was a defensive liability for the entire Pistons series, forcing Hinrich to switch over to Billups (at which point Rip began to light it up).
> 
> That being said, when you have a PG and SG, why would you trade the PG for another SG? That logic is horrible.
> 
> And don't tell me "of course Ben can play PG, weren't you watching" because no, Ben cannot play PG. The man can barely stand up straight. He should be a catch and shoot, Allan Houston in his prime type player. If we made a trade for a post player, THEN keeping Gordon would make sense. But not when trading for a SG.


I think your flipping the script quite a bit.

Hinrich had to switch onto Billups because Gordon couldn't guard him? Game 3 is when the switch occured. Gordon was shutting down Billups in game 3, while Hamilton was lighting up Hinrich. Then they switched, and Billups went on to pick a part Hinrich, and that is how the Pistons started their comeback.

I don't feel like breaking out the numbers, I believe Gordon gave Billups like 4 points, and Hirnich 19. I'll look up the exact numbers later.

Gordon did a good job on Billups, while he struggled on Hamilton. Gordon can guard point guards just as good, if not better than Hinrich. Gordon just struggles with the bigger players he sometimes has to guard because of Hinrich's lack of size.

Gordon averaged 3.8 assists in the playoffs, not exactly bad for the guy thats not the point guard. 

Both Hinrich and Gordon averaged 2.5 turnovers per game in the Pistons series.

Also, hitting the open jumper is a part of the point guards job. And Kirk did a horrible job of that during the playoffs, with his AWFUL TS%. Ben Gordon had a 57.0 TS% despite being covered heavily. Imagine what his TS% would be next to an elite guard like Kobe? We already know Hinrich can't consistently hit that open jumper, but Gordon hits a covered jumper, so just imagine how great he will be with these easy shots.

Ben Gordon- 24 PPG on 60 TS%
Kobe Bryaunt- 28 PPG on 62 TS%
Luol Deng 20 PPG on 58 TS%

versus

Kirk Hinrich- 16 PPG on 49 TS%
Kobe Bryant- 31 PPG on 55 TS%
Luol Deng- 20 PPG on 58 TS%

Which are you going to want to take?


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> I think your flipping the script quite a bit.
> 
> Hinrich had to switch onto Billups because Gordon couldn't guard him? Game 3 is when the switch occured. Gordon was shutting down Billups in game 3, while Hamilton was lighting up Hinrich. Then they switched, and Billups went on to pick a part Hinrich, and that is how the Pistons started their comeback.
> 
> ...


Clearly Gordon = God. I think we've got it.

But Ben at PG with Duhon/Thabo backing him up won't be the worst thing in the world. Gordon had some spectacular PG-ish games this year and I believe one of them was during the playoffs (20+ points, 10+ assists?). But are the Lakers that high on Hinrich?


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## Smez86 (Jun 29, 2006)

Oh my god.

You seriously believe Gordon did a better job defending in the playoffs than Hinrich?

Wow. Just, wow.

I admitted that I believe Gordon is the better player.

But reply to me with "Gordon is a better defender than Hinrich." Go ahead. Do it. And I won't be surprised when you do.

If you specifically think BG guarded Billups and Hamilton better than Hinrich as you're implying, I will do the entire board a favor and stop replying to you so that your post count will decrease.


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## Orange Julius Irving (Jun 28, 2004)

Mebarak said:


> I think your flipping the script quite a bit.......
> 
> 
> ......Gordon just struggles with the bigger players he sometimes has to guard because of Hinrich's lack of size.




:lol:


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

SecretAgentGuy said:


> Clearly Gordon = God. I think we've got it.
> 
> But Ben at PG with Duhon/Thabo backing him up won't be the worst thing in the world. Gordon had some spectacular PG-ish games this year and I believe one of them was during the playoffs (20+ points, 10+ assists?). But are the Lakers that high on Hinrich?


Hinrich is BYC, and you have to have a psychopathological fixation on trading him to think about including him in a trade for anyone this summer.

On the other hand, I doubt that there is anyone who seriously considered a Bulls LA trade involving Kobe who did not include Gordon in the swap -- it just makes sense. The challenge is to come up with the rest of the matching salary without gutting the team. 

I'm not sure, but I think a resigned PJ or Sweetney may not be eligible to be included in a trade. So that means you probably have to include Ben Wallace, who presumably would be traded to a third team for something that fits into LA's rebuilding program. The bad thing is that the Bulls are already very thin at center, and losing Wallace would be a major setback for any hopes to win it all next year.

Finally, if Kobe has a trade kicker in his contract, he'll have to approve the trade under most circumstances.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

ESPN offered one followed by the other. I helped them with the marketing. :biggrin:


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Smez86 said:


> Oh my god.
> 
> You seriously believe Gordon did a better job defending in the playoffs than Hinrich?
> 
> ...


If you're still struggling with these concepts allow me to help you understand from Sloth's POV...


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

McBulls said:


> Finally, if Kobe has a trade kicker in his contract, he'll have to approve the trade under most circumstances.


He doesn't just have a kicker. He has the only no-trade clause in the NBA. Therefore, he can veto any potential trade if he doesn't like it.


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## souleater (Apr 21, 2007)

my opinion guys after i heard both of his interviews i think he's forcing things,i think kobe does not really to be traded,but with this he puts pressure on their gm to bring a superstar to la,knowing how loved and famous he is in la and on national networks,that's my opinion,but if he sees later in the summer after the draft and free agency that nothing happens,despite all these he says now,then might ask for a trade


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Here is the essential problem in any Kobe deal. We need to keep enough of our core together so we don't end up as the East version of the Lakers. Gordon has to be the principal in any deal and Deng can not be included. Deng has shown that he does not need the ball in his hands to score and with Kobe gunning all day, every day, this will end up being a very complimentary duo. Gordon is expendable because he needs the ball and to break people down off the dribble. I'd also be comfortable sending Hinrich out with Gordon. Lakers get a starting backcourt with instant chemistry. Problem is, Kirk is BYC and will be hard to trade. Why? Because with Kobe and Deng each scoring 20+, Duhon becomes the floor leader and prototypical point guard. He's solid defensively and doesn't turn the ball over. I'd like to hang onto Tyrus too as I feel that his putback, dunk, oop game meshes with Kobe very well too. 

The most realistic shot of any trade happening would be a three team deal with a team under the cap...

*Chicago sends:*
Ben Gordon(4.9 million)
Kirk Hinrich(5.5 million)*BYC
P.J. Brown(re-signed 1 year-4.9 million)
#9 Pick(2.8 million)
2008 1st Round Pick
2009 1st Round Pick
TOTAL: 18.1 million

*Lakers send:*
Kobe Bryant(19.5 million)
#19 Pick(1.2 million)
TOTAL: 20.7 million

*Orlando sends:*
2008 2nd Round Pick
TOTAL: 0

*Chicago receives:*
Kobe Bryant(19.5 million)
#19 Pick(1.2 million)
2008 2nd Round Pick
TOTAL: 20.7 million

*Lakers receive:*
Ben Gordon(4.9 million)
Kirk Hinrich(11.0 million)*BYC
#9 Pick(2.8 million)
2008 1st Round Pick
TOTAL: 18.7 million

*Orlando receives:*
P.J. Brown(4.9 million)
2009 1st Round Pick
TOTAL: 4.9 million

Kirk and Ben must leave in the deal otherwise it becomes far too expensive to pay Kirk, Kobe, Luol, and Wallace. In order to trade Kirk for Kobe, the Bulls will have to find a team far enough under the cap to dump salary on. Charlotte works as does Orlando. Unfortunately, Orlando won't just accept P.J. Brown for a 2nd rounder, so the Bulls will have to throw in Thabo. 

In the McGrady and Vince deals you seem something similar to this. Multiple 1st round picks, two borderline All-Stars, and another developing player. Not only do the Lakers get a lottery pick, but two more 1st round picks in addition to their own lottery picks. They'll basically be starting over, but have about 10 million in cap space after Kwame's deal expires.

*BULLS*
PG-Chris Duhon(3.2 million)
SG-Kobe Bryant(19.5 million)
SF-Luol Deng(3.3 million)
PF-Tyrus Thomas(3.5 million)
C-Ben Wallace(15.5 million)

Thabo Sefolosha(SG/SF)(1.9 million)

Adrian Griffin(SG)(1.6 million)
Viktor Khryapa(SF)(1.9 million)
TOTAL: 50.4 for 8 players

Now the Bulls have the 19th pick in the draft which will cost about 1.4 million and lets assume either the 49th or 51st pick makes the team at a cost of about 750,000.

#19-Chicago Bulls-Javaris Crittenton(PG)(Georiga Tech)*projected at #20 by DraftExpress (other possibilities: Tiago Splitter, Thaddeus Young, Acie Law)
#49-Chicago Bulls-Carl Landry(PF)(Purdue)*projected at #51(other possibilities: Demetris Nichols, Herbert Hill, Ron Lewis)

*BULLS*
PG-Chris Duhon(3.2 million)
SG-Kobe Bryant(19.5 million)
SF-Luol Deng(3.3 million)
PF-Tyrus Thomas(3.5 million)
C-Ben Wallace(15.5 million)

Javaris Crittenton(PG)(1.4 million)
Thabo Sefolosha(SG/SF)(1.9 million)

Adrian Griffin(SG)(1.6 million)
Viktor Khryapa(SF)(1.9 million)
Carl Landry(PF)(750,000)
TOTAL: 52.6 for 10 players

Trading Kirk frees the Bulls up to re-sign Nocioni to a healthy deal. Along the lines of 4 years-34 million sounds about right. Backload Nocioni's contract so the wealthier years coincide with the end of Wallace's contract. 

After that I'm assuming Paxson could either re-sign Barrett and Marty Vicious or pick up equivalent players in the undrafted pool or the NBDL. So a PG and a C signed for 1 year at the league min. 

Essentially this leaves one spot open on the Bulls roster. A backup big man who can play the center spot. The MLE will be available for us to use and there are several fairly good candidates: Jamaal Magloire, Chris Mihm, Mikki Moore, and Marc Jackson to name five. We should be able to land one of those guys for 4 years at the MLE which should be around 5.2 million or so. So lets say we land Magloire for 4 years-20.8 million.

*BULLS*
PG-Chris Duhon(3.2 million)
SG-Kobe Bryant(19.5 million)
SF-Luol Deng(3.3 million)
PF-Tyrus Thomas(3.5 million)
C-Ben Wallace(15.5 million)

Javaris Crittenton(PG)(1.4 million)
Thabo Sefolosha(SG/SF)(1.9 million)
Andres Nocioni(SF/PF)(7.3 million)
Jamaal Magloire(C)(4.7 million)

Andre Barrett(PG)(750,000)
Adrian Griffin(SG)(1.6 million)
Viktor Khryapa(SF)(1.9 million)
Carl Landry(PF)(750,000)
Marty Vicious(C)(750,000)
TOTAL: 66.1 million for 14 players(good for 11th in the league during the 06-07 season)

With this team you'd have two big scorers in Kobe and Deng. A point guard who takes care of the ball and is solid defensively. A young, athletic power forward who would be good for 10/10/3 next year if he gets 30+ min a game and an aging, but still productive center who is a rebounding and defensive machine. On the bench, you've got scoring with Nocioni, defense with Thabo, a solid big man in Magloire, and a young PG being groomed to take over for Duhon eventually. This team probably dominates the East over the next three to four years.

The Lakers would have...

PG-Kirk Hinrich(11.0 million)
SG-Ben Gordon(4.9 million)
SF-Luke Walton(re-signed for 4 years-30 million)(6.5 million)
PF-Lamar Odom(13.5 million)
C-Andrew Bynum(2.2 million)

Jordan Farmar(PG)(1.0 million)
Maurice Evans(SG/SF)(1.5 million)
Jeff Green(SF)(#9 Pick)(2.8 million)
Vladimir Radmanovic(SF/PF)(5.6 million)
Kwame Brown(PF/C)(9.1 million)

Sasha Vujacic(PG)(1.8 million)
NBDL or Undrafted(SG)(750,000)
Brian Cook(PF)(3.5 million)
Sean Williams(C)(#40 Pick)(750,000)
TOTAL: 64.9 million for 14 players

They could just as easily not re-sign Walton. After next season they'd only have 

Hinrich, Odom, Bynum, Green, Radmanovic, and Cook under contract. KG has a player option for 08-09 and could easily opt out. In fact, if KG plays out his deal with Minnesota he'll still be a solid player at 32 considering the condition he keeps himself in. Odom will be off the books. If the Lakers play their cards right they could line up in 2009-2010...

PG-Kirk Hinrich
SG-O.J. Mayo(2008 1st Round Pick)
SF-Jeff Green(2007 1st Round Pick)
PF-Kevin Garnett
C-Andrew Bynum

Ben Gordon(PG/SG)(re-signed)
Vladimir Randmanovic(SF/PF)
Sean Williams(PF/C)(2007 2nd Round Pick) 

Add in a MLE SG/SF and some more young players and you got a pretty damn good team in two years.

Anyways, after spending like two hours breaking all this down and figuring out the contracts and BYC implications, I'm done, and I hope this is what gets done.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Wouldn't Brown have to agree to those things? If he's serious about retiring, I find it unlikely. I guess Nocioni might be ok with it, since potentially it lands him more money.


Yo, it would land Brown more money too. At this point his choices are to retire or play for a million or two. If he agreed to take part in this deal, he'd get about the $8M he made this season. That's some serious bucks.

Plus, when a player retires before his contract is up, it's at the discretion of his team to continue to pay him. So essentially, I think he could be signed and traded to the Lakers who could pay him a "retirement bonus" even if he never plays a game for them.

Not a great deal for them, but better to get the cap space in a year than pay an unhappy Ben Wallace $45M.



fl_flash said:


> I have a question for any CBA gurus out there. Are NBA teams prohibited from making trades after the season ends and before the draft?


No. Once the season is over for a team, they can trade, but with some restrictions...



> I can't recall ever seeing a trade done after the end of the regular season but before the draft. The primary reason I ask is that if a deal could be done prior to June 30, 2007, then isn't it feasable that you could still trade PJ and Sweetney since they would, technically, be under contract still and not UFA?


... this is one of those restrictions. You can't trade players who are in the last year of their contracts. 



> I know you can't trade RFA's prior to July 15th (sign and trades) but if the player is eligible to be a UFA, could he be moved in a deal prior to June 30th? Is a trade before the draft even permissable under the current CBA?


Thus, we can make trades, but only with guys we already have under contract for next season. One grey area is that PJ, by being a veteran free agent (not coming off a rookie deal) could, I believe, still be signed to a contract extension before then. I don't know if doing so would make him tradeable or impose a restriction of its own... this is something I haven't been able to get a definitive answer to (and believe me, I've tried).


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Yo, it would land Brown more money too. At this point his choices are to retire or play for a million or two. If he agreed to take part in this deal, he'd get about the $8M he made this season. That's some serious bucks.
> 
> Plus, when a player retires before his contract is up, it's at the discretion of his team to continue to pay him. So essentially, I think he could be signed and traded to the Lakers who could pay him a "retirement bonus" even if he never plays a game for them.
> 
> ...




I keep seeing PJ coming up in trade possibilities. He's an unrestricted FA, right? He can decide whether he wants to go somewhere or not, right? If both of these are true, then it appears that "has the hammer," right?


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

T.Shock said:


> *BULLS*
> PG-Chris Duhon(3.2 million)
> SG-Kobe Bryant(19.5 million)
> SF-Luol Deng(3.3 million)
> ...


Thanks for the effort. Only one criticism -- I don't think you can trade both the 2008 and 2009 picks. 

If Kobe actually demands a trade to the team of his choice, LA has a gun to it's head and will have to settle for less than fair value for him in trade. Hinrich and Gordon are nice compensation for Kobe -- maybe too nice under the circumstances. I'd keep the 2007 9th pick and the 2009 pick and substitute some 2nd round picks. That way we get a decent rookie big man this year to train under Wallace.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

> A sign-and-trade deal can be made even with players who have been renounced, but cannot be made when the player is signed using the Mid-Level, Bi-Annual or Disabled Player exceptions. Sign-and-trade contracts must be for three years or longer, *but only the first season of the contract must be guaranteed. * The three year minimum (even though the last two seasons may be non-guaranteed) ensures that the new team will not acquire Bird rights to the player any sooner than if they had signed him directly, because if they want to give him a new contract using Bird rights then they would have to waive him first, which resets the Bird clock.


Bulls Trade:

Kirk Hinrich (5.5 million)
Tyrus Thomas (3.5 million)
PJ Brown (Sign and traded 9.5 million [3 years, 30.5 million])
Viktar Khryapa (1.9 million)
2008 Draft Pick

Lakers Trade:

Kobe Bryant (19.5 million)
Vladmir Radmanovic (5.6 million)

5.5+3.5+9.5+1.9 = 20.4 * 1.25 = 25.5.

19.5 + 5.6 = 25.1

PG-Ben Gordon/Chris Duhon
SG-Kobe Bryant/Thabo Sefolosha
SF-Luol Deng/Thabo Sefolosha
PF-Andres Nocioni/Joakim Noah
C- Ben Wallace/MLE


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

Mr. T said:


> If you're still struggling with these concepts allow me to help you understand from Sloth's POV...



BRILLIANT!

LMFAO @ people that want Ben Gordon to play PG.


Maybe if they had statistics that reflects slip-on-the-floor/dribble-off-your-foot ratio some of these kids will see how ridiculous they are.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> Bulls Trade:
> 
> Kirk Hinrich (5.5 million)
> Tyrus Thomas (3.5 million)
> ...



Won't work. You are messing up the BYC rules on Kirk. If we do trade that package Kirk's outgoing trade value is 11 million. So add another 5.5 million onto that. 

We'd be sending out 25.5 and getting back 25.1. That's good.
The Lakers would be sending out 25.1 and getting back 31. That is no good.

Hinrich is a far better fit than Gordon for Kobe. Sorry it's true. As I outlined in my post though, we wouldn't have the money to pay Luol or Tyrus if we kept Kirk. The only way this deal works financially is if the Bulls send out Kirk or Big Ben.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

transplant said:


> I keep seeing PJ coming up in trade possibilities. He's an unrestricted FA, right? He can decide whether he wants to go somewhere or not, right? If both of these are true, then it appears that "has the hammer," right?


Did you read the point I laid out about the money he can make by agreeing to such a deal, even if he retires? Perhaps he has a stick, but there's a very big carrot out there too.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

McBulls said:


> Thanks for the effort. Only one criticism -- I don't think you can trade both the 2008 and 2009 picks.
> 
> If Kobe actually demands a trade to the team of his choice, LA has a gun to it's head and will have to settle for less than fair value for him in trade. Hinrich and Gordon are nice compensation for Kobe -- maybe too nice under the circumstances. I'd keep the 2007 9th pick and the 2009 pick and substitute some 2nd round picks. That way we get a decent rookie big man this year to train under Wallace.


You are right about the picks. The reason those McGrady and Carter deals worked was because the teams were trading acquired picks as opposed to their own. 

Perhaps this variation...

*Bulls send:*
Kirk Hinrich
Ben Gordon
P.J. Brown
2008 1st Round Pick

*Lakers send:*
Kobe Bryant

*Magic send:*
2009 2nd Round Pick

*Bulls receive:*
Kobe Bryant

*Lakers receive:*
Kirk Hinrich
Ben Gordon
P.J. Brown
2008 1st Round Pick

*Magic receive:*
P.J. Brown

Essentially the Lakers move down 10 spots and the Magic get P.J. Brown on a one-year loan for a 2nd round pick. If Kobe really wants out and desires to go to Chicago (which his free agency year indicates he would) then this is probably a fair trade all around. Again, the only way a Kobe deal makes sense is if Hinrich is dealt. We'd need a 3rd team to do this. The Lakers could re-build around Hinrich, Gordon, Odom, Bynum, and 3 first round picks. I still think we may need to include the pick swap to make this happen. 

Of course it would all hinge on P.J. If P.J. doesn't want to be signed and traded to Orlando he could retire or reject the deal although the compensation is more than what he could expect. The Bulls build around Kobe, Deng, and Tyrus. With Wallace's deal expiring right when a Tyrus extension would kick in.


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## Brothaman33 (Feb 21, 2006)

McBulls said:


> Thanks for the effort. Only one criticism -- I don't think you can trade both the 2008 and 2009 picks.
> 
> If Kobe actually demands a trade to the team of his choice, LA has a gun to it's head and will have to settle for less than fair value for him in trade. Hinrich and Gordon are nice compensation for Kobe -- maybe too nice under the circumstances. I'd keep the 2007 9th pick and the 2009 pick and substitute some 2nd round picks. That way we get a decent rookie big man this year to train under Wallace.


yea, and i think that if we offer that trade, i think when we say, Gordon and Hinrich, they have to consider...

I like the final lineup

Wallace
Thomas
Deng
Bryant
Duhon/Crittenton


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

T.Shock said:


> We'd be sending out 25.5 and getting back 25.1. That's good.
> The Lakers would be sending out 25.1 and getting back 31. That is no good.


Actually, that works just fine. 25.1 to 31 is well within the 125% trade provision.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

I'm still trying to figure out where exactly I stand on the issue.

My first impulse would be to let the Bulls pick one of our big 3 and a resigned PJ Brown to a 10 million dollar, one year contract, and see what they do. 

And if that doesn't do it, let them pick one of Tyrus, Thabo, or the pick. After that, no deal.

Those are both being homeristic, and entirely contingent on the Lakers having their hands tied, but the point of trading for a guy like Kobe is to put you over the top, and giving up much more than that doesn't give us enough ammo to win once we get him here.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Actually, that works just fine. 25.1 to 31 is well within the 125% trade provision.


Yep. But Gordon has proved he can't play point.


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## tweedy (Apr 4, 2005)

> Deal No. 2: Chicago trades Luol Deng, Ben Gordon, Victor Khryapa and the No. 9 pick for Kobe.
> 
> Additional notes: This deal works as long as the Bulls renounce P.J. Brown's rights; also, it means the Lakers would receive a mammoth (and appealing) trade exception in the deal.
> 
> ...


Sports Guy's take

BTW, I've heartily enjoyed Mr. T's photoshop work in this thread :biggrin:


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

I don't get this. I wouldn't really care to cheer too much for this team if we are swapping Kobe in for Ben/Luol.

Lakers may be giving up the best player in the trade, but looking 3 years down the road, and redo the trade over, we may be giving up the best 2 players in the trade.

I don't like it.

Not to mention its much easier to cheer for Ben and Luol. Just trading one of them wouldn't be good, but both, in the same deal for anyone short of Tim Duncan and Lebron James is absolutely insane.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

tweedy said:


> Sports Guy's take
> 
> BTW, I've heartily enjoyed Mr. T's photoshop work in this thread :biggrin:


Personally, I would reject that deal, and not think too hard about it. 

I don't see a lineup of 

Kirk
Kobe
Noc
Tyrus
Wallace

As being significantly better than what the Lakers have now. We have pretty big holes at the 3 and 4 (I don't think Noc is an adequate NBA starting 3), with little quality depth behind us, which is important when you have big holes at two positions.

I think that lineup is a 10 win improvement over what the Lakers have right now, which still doesn't jolt us into "true contender" status, and is a level that our team could probably reach next year anyway, while being younger and having more flexibility.

I'm still in the midst of going over what I would and wouldn't do to get Kobe, but I'm already sure that I would not give up 2 of Ben, Luol, or Kirk. It leaves the cupboard too bare.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

tweedy said:


> Sports Guy's take
> 
> BTW, I've heartily enjoyed Mr. T's photoshop work in this thread :biggrin:


Whoa, can we really just release PJ and get a trade exception just like that? Man, if there's one thing I don't understand about the CBA, it's trade exceptions.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Oh, and for those that didn't know. Kobe said he didn't want to get traded anymore after his conversation with Phil Jackson.

So....does he demand a trade again after talking to cupcake and the town drunk?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Whoa, can we really just release PJ and get a trade exception just like that? Man, if there's one thing I don't understand about the CBA, it's trade exceptions.


No we can't, Simmons has his cranium and rectum in close proximity.

The logic he was trying to get at was that if we got below the cap we'd be able to take back Kobe's salary without giving out equal salary. The Lakers would get a trade exception equal to the difference between Kobe's salaries and the salaries we give them.

However, he's where he's wrong. Just renouncing PJ won't get us under the cap. We'd also have to renounce Nocioni and our MLE.

Which obviously means the end result of the trade is we lose Deng, Gordon, Nocioni, the #9 pick, and the possibility of using the MLE and BAE exceptions to add to the team.

In short, that's probably the worst possible means of getting him I can think of. It'd leave us with a completely hollow team and absolutely no means of fixing it.

Oh, and it couldn't be done until July anyway, when we could conceivably do sign and trades or other moves to get us there. In other words, it's crap.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

rosenthall said:


> I think that lineup is a 10 win improvement over what the Lakers have right now, which still doesn't jolt us into "true contender" status, and is a level that our team could probably reach next year anyway, while being younger and having more flexibility.
> 
> I'm still in the midst of going over what I would and wouldn't do to get Kobe, but I'm already sure that I would not give up 2 of Ben, Luol, or Kirk. It leaves the cupboard too bare.


I'm skeptical about us being "true contenders" next year, but otherwise I agree 100%. There's just no point in trading away a whole team for a guy who, as good as he is, can't win by himself.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> I'm skeptical about us being "true contenders" next year, but otherwise I agree 100%. There's just no point in trading away a whole team for a guy who, as good as he is, can't win by himself.


I don't think we'll be "true contenders" next year either. I was referring to being a slightly above 50 win team that is very good, but still would be considered an underdog to make it out of the eastern conference, or.........a little bit better than we are this year. So, I don't think we disagree hardly at all.

And as good as Kobe is, I think there's a lesson to be learned in his last three years with the Lakers. He's been the alpha dog on a team that has had very average talent, and has risen them to moderately above average results, but never a team that has really scared anyone. So, I'm pretty sure we'll still need a talented, well rounded ball club in addition to Kobe if we want any shot of getting anywhere once we have him.


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## mgolding (Jul 20, 2002)

rosenthall said:


> Personally, I would reject that deal, and not think too hard about it.
> 
> I don't see a lineup of
> 
> ...


I tend to disagree. The Lakers didnt play defense and their offense wasnt as well balanced as the top western conference teams to be able to out score them often enough. The line-up you mentioned would play a hell of lot of defense. I dont think Kobe is a 1st team all defender as the awards suggest, but a Kirk (finally defending PGs) and Kobe as a defensive backcourt would be outstanding (not to mention Duhon, Tahbo and Grif as their back-ups). Then to have Wallace and Thomas guarding the hoop the Bulls would be a formiddable defensive unit.



rosenthall said:


> I think that lineup is a 10 win improvement over what the Lakers have right now, which still doesn't jolt us into "true contender" status,


I'm not so sure that a 10 win improvement on what the lakers did isnt significant. That would be a 10 win imporovement in the west which is a 55 to 60 win team in the east. That puts us in the finals with the best defensive team and in my opinion the best starting backcourt in the NBA. Not to mention the NBAs top scoring finisher in Kobe.

I would go for the trade of:
Gordon
Deng
Resigned Brown
Either Duhon or Thabo or 9th Pick

with keeping the 9th pick a priority as to add frontcourt depth


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## mgolding (Jul 20, 2002)

On the issue of Kobes attitude.
He's a frightening competitor who in the past has got has his chartacter questioned on a number on incidents each generally relating to one of two things. 

1. He demands that management puts him in a position to contend and improve quickly.
A: The Bulls would be in a position to contend and improve with Kobe

2. He wants to be the top dog on his team (and the NBA generally).
A: There would be no questioning his status as the man on this team as every guy we've got is at best an outstanding role player (offensively at least). I honestly think he would be in his best position to be the MVP on a team that plays defense and team ball the way the bulls do.

Note: I think Kirk is almost the best PG compliment to Kobe in the league and Kobe has never had the chance to play with a particularly good point guard.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I'd want Kobe for the right price. But Kobe needs to be realistic about the Lakers chances of winning anytime soon. Unless KG opts out, they won't be contending at all. You can't trade Odom for a stud. Bynum isn't going to develop during Kobe's prime or will get you a star. 

Kobe for BG, Thabo, Noce, and Future pick. Otherwise No. But I don't think he will be traded anyway. He loves the Lakers too much.


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## laso (Jul 24, 2002)

The thing to keep in mind is that Kobe may make us a more attractive destination as well. Assuming we do a deal that allows us to keep at least 3 Core pieces - say Kobe, Hinrich, T Thomas (hopefully he becomes that type of player), and perhaps Ben Wallace. 

I think we could become an attractive destination next year for a guy like Garnett who's made a ton of $ in his career and may go for the mid-level exception to go for a title.

We may not be able to put it together right away, but I could see us being true contender the year after and for the next 3/4 years. And come on, wouldn't the Bulls/Cavs matchups have more flair if Kobe was with us?


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

smARTmouf said:


> BRILLIANT!
> 
> LMFAO @ people that want Ben Gordon to play PG.
> 
> ...


This whole season...the ball usually moved when it was in BG's hands, and the whole team benefited. Kirk had a period during the last part of the season and into the Miami series when he thought the whole team could benefit from touching the ball as well, before exiting Game 6 against the Pistons in familiar "keep-your-dribble" fashion.

Were much more dangerous when the ball's in Ben's hands, and NOT when he's playing catch and shoot from the corner. The Pistons were good at double teaming him from the corner. To defend Kirk, posters centered in overexaggerated and overdramatized the effect of Ben's turnovers. People can point out turnovers, turnovers galore, on the assumption that turnovers are just bad, but what is the overall effect on the team of Ben handling the ball? 

Perhaps he wouldn't always get an assist, but generally (unless he was really on fire and we were in an urgent situation), he got the ball circulating and not just to PJ Brown and Ben Wallace.

A lot of what I saw, people like SPMJ --- we would go dry for 7 minutes with a Kirk and Duhon lineup alternating PG duties, especially during the first half of the season when Ben wasn't starting, but HEY at least we had no turnovers (cause that must mean were scoring efficiently) ! Anyone remember those days? I wouldn't doubt that people would find a way to blame our offensive woes on defense.

When Ben did come in and was given "free reign" meaning he was given the honor of touching the basketball, and god forbid even bringing it up, we were usually good for a run or two. Wasn't he doing this in the clutch against Miami in game 1? Didn't we sweep Miami when Kirk and Ben split time handling the ball?

At any rate, I believe DaBullz, Mebarak have already shown miles of stats on this subject. 

What can I say, people pay a lot more attention to form than function.


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Might I suggest the new Ben Gordon commemorative.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

tweedy said:


> Sports Guy's take


Aside from the salary matching errors, I thought SG's analysis was dead on; he had pretty good insight into all the issues in a Bulls-Kobe trade. That said, I completely disagree with how he comes out on his analysis. 



> If you could land Kobe and keep Kirk Hinrich, Ben Wallace, Ty Thomas, Chris Duhon and Thabo Sefolosha, then sign one more veteran to help them out, that's a potential 2008 title team. Isn't the whole point to win a title?


That doesn't strike me as a title team for a second and it's a prime example of an attitude that seems to be shared by national NBA writers and perhaps all NBA fans when it comes to a team other than their own: people do not want to see patient team building. Regardless of how successful they are, the Bulls are much more fun to write about immediately and next season if they shake things up by adding a big name vet than if they continue to take a more long term approach. A lot of NBA writers act as though a GM is crazy to pass up a move that would increase the teams title chances from 35% to 40% in the next season, regardless of the long term impact on the team's success because "isn't the whole point to win a title?"


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## Mr. T (Jan 29, 2004)

Chad Ford just weighed in. Apparently he's holed up with almost all of the GM's near Orlando watching predraft camp. Here's the basics:

Most believe Buss won't trade Kobe, but he will fire Kupchak and try to bring in somebody Kobe will approve. Kobe will be sold on a bold new course of action.

If the Lakers do trade Kobe, there are two likely destinations - Phoenix and Chicago.

The Bulls are the obvious choice and a source close to Kobe says he's been eyeing the Bulls for the past month as his preferred destination.

The proposal is Deng, Gordon, Griffin and Khryapa. The Bulls would also sign PJ to a one year 6.5 million deal and include him. If it isn't enough, there goes the #9 pick too.

Ford thinks this is the best deal the Lakers would get (keeping in mind Kobe's control via the no-trade clause). 

Next, Kobe has a great relationship with D'Antoni. He's thinking Matrix and Barbosa are the trade here but the Lakers already gave the Heat a title and that looks like a deal that would give the Suns one too.

According to Sheridan, there is no short list of teams Kobe wants to be traded to yet but one is forthcoming.

He says the Bulls need $16.2 before July 1 and $17.9 after July 1. He suggests Tyrus (3.5), Gordon (4.9), Duhon (3.3) and Noce (S&T starting at 6.2) He asks if Paxson would be willing to give up that much. (Sign me up!)

But then he wants Stoudemire or Marion along with Diaw and the Hawks unprotected 2008 or the 24th and 29th this year when he talks about the Suns.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

mgolding said:


> I tend to disagree. The Lakers didnt play defense and their offense wasnt as well balanced as the top western conference teams to be able to out score them often enough. The line-up you mentioned would play a hell of lot of defense. I dont think Kobe is a 1st team all defender as the awards suggest, but a Kirk (finally defending PGs) and Kobe as a defensive backcourt would be outstanding (not to mention Duhon, Tahbo and Grif as their back-ups). Then to have Wallace and Thomas guarding the hoop the Bulls would be a formiddable defensive unit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I meant a 50-54 win team in the eastern conference. I think the team you mentioned would be slightly better than Lebron's Cavs right now. If you took away Lebron and Kobe from the respective teams, his would have the advantage in the frontcourt while we would have ours in the backcourt, and I would give our team a slight edge for being better overall defensively and having more balance. 

But still, I think we'll be a 50-54 win team next year anyways if we just stay pat. If you subtract one of either Gordon or Deng I'd do the deal, but I wouldn't do both. They're what tips the scale for the trade. Keep one of them and we should be able to go to the next level, but trade both and we're just treading water.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

Mr. T said:


> Might I suggest the new Ben Gordon commemorative.


Looks like he's being guarded by a tandem of a baby Uwe Blabb and Wayne Rooney.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

I think Phoenix is a more likely destination because Nash's age makes them more desperate. Marion and Barbosa plus a pick might work. 

Marion and Odom would complement each other very well IMO.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Mr. T said:


> Chad Ford just weighed in. Apparently he's holed up with almost all of the GM's near Orlando watching predraft camp. Here's the basics:
> 
> Most believe Buss won't trade Kobe, but he will fire Kupchak and try to bring in somebody Kobe will approve. Kobe will be sold on a bold new course of action.


In other words, he's making Kobe the Man Behind the Curtain. I can't imagine that working out all that well for him.

As the father of a two year old, it never ceases to amaze me how these guys want and crave a firm hand and at the same time want complete control to change things at their whim. Does nobody else see the irony of Kobe demanding a trade or a series of major moves but wanting to come play for a team that won't let a guy wear a headband? These guys are on their own little world.



> If the Lakers do trade Kobe, there are two likely destinations - Phoenix and Chicago.
> 
> The Bulls are the obvious choice and a source close to Kobe says he's been eyeing the Bulls for the past month as his preferred destination.
> 
> ...


I'd happily do the Sheridan deal if we could substitute in Brown for Noc. That's pretty close to what I've been saying. If possible I'd actually like to keep Duhon around because he'd become about 50% more valuable by trading in Kobe and trading out Gordon. But I wouldn't let it hold things up either.


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## laso (Jul 24, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> I think Phoenix is a more likely destination because Nash's age makes them more desperate. Marion and Barbosa plus a pick might work.
> 
> Marion and Odom would complement each other very well IMO.


Deng and Gordon is the better deal for the Lakers. Who would you rather build around?


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Can we change the title of this thread to include all Kobe-related talk, including the Simmons article? Thanks.

Simmons, by the way, thinks that we can use PJ Brown in a 1-year S&T. He keeps mentioning that we have the "rights" to him. But isn't he a UFA? If he's RFA, then by all means, what a nice throw-in to a deal. Pay PJ $12 mil and ship him along to L.A.

But does that make sense? Is that allowed? Are there any cap experts that can address this?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Showtyme said:


> Can we change the title of this thread to include all Kobe-related talk, including the Simmons article? Thanks.
> 
> Simmons, by the way, thinks that we can use PJ Brown in a 1-year S&T. He keeps mentioning that we have the "rights" to him. But isn't he a UFA? If he's RFA, then by all means, what a nice throw-in to a deal. Pay PJ $12 mil and ship him along to L.A.
> 
> But does that make sense? Is that allowed? Are there any cap experts that can address this?


As I understand it, PJ could sign a contract extension today if he wanted to. The CBA is unclear about how soon a player who signs an extension can be traded, assuming the value of his new contract doesn't make him BYC.

I say extension because PJ's contract doesn't technically expire until the end of June. At that point, he'll be a UFA. That means we retain the right to go over the cap to sign him (his "Bird Rights"). At that point we could do a sign and trade.

The Sign and trade rules say that any S&T contract must be 3 years or more, but only the first year need be guaranteed. So long as Brown's new contract salary is within 20% (I think that's the number) of his old contract amount, he won't be BYC. Thus, to avoid BYC provisions, he can be resigned for between $6.4M and $9.6M.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> As I understand it, PJ could sign a contract extension today if he wanted to. The CBA is unclear about how soon a player who signs an extension can be traded, assuming the value of his new contract doesn't make him BYC.
> 
> I say extension because PJ's contract doesn't technically expire until the end of June. At that point, he'll be a UFA. That means we retain the right to go over the cap to sign him (his "Bird Rights"). At that point we could do a sign and trade.
> 
> The Sign and trade rules say that any S&T contract must be 3 years or more, but only the first year need be guaranteed. So long as Brown's new contract salary is within 20% (I think that's the number) of his old contract amount, he won't be BYC. Thus, to avoid BYC provisions, he can be resigned for between $6.4M and $9.6M.


So if PJ wasn't game to play another year, I think we could play that same game with Malik Allen, right? It shouldn't be any different if the player we're talking about is finishing up a four or a two year contract, right?

This is slightly different than your idea, because it would have to happen in July, but this should work:

Gordon
Thomas
Duhon 
Khryapa
Allen (sign and traded, three year deal, only first year guaranteed, starting at 2.164 million, exactly 120% of his current deal)
2008 first round draft pick, unprotected
(15.726 mil)

for 

Kobe Bryant

(19.49 mil)


This fits under the 125% clause.

Damn, it's hard to trade for that guy. That trade idea of PJ for Kurt Thomas would have made things much easier, no?


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Here's another creative accounting question. After July, can we sign Gordon/Deng to a new extension and then immediately trade one of them with new financial value under the poison pill provision?


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Hollywood hystrionics are causing us to make useless speculations.
Two years from now Kobe will be a free agent. Think about it then. If he really want's to play with our team he come and play for he MLE in his first year. After that ...

The smog in LA makes people a little breathless there.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> So if PJ wasn't game to play another year, I think we could play that same game with Malik Allen, right? It shouldn't be any different if the player we're talking about is finishing up a four or a two year contract, right?
> 
> This is slightly different than your idea, because it would have to happen in July, but this should work:
> 
> ...


For you and Showtyme both..

PJ would be nuts to try and get a contract on the FA market. Vet minimum? IF someone wanted him to actually play some. 

S&T, he gets 1st year guaranteed of a 3 year deal. Last two are irrelevent. Team can send him home, like we did with Tim Thomas, and just use him as a salary dump. I'm sure he'd be happy with his ~$8M in found money.

PJ is way more useful to the bulls than Allen (for this purpose) because he could be signed for anything from vet minimum up to over $9M, depending on how much cap balast is needed to consumate a deal. Can't go TOO far over the player's previous year salary or he goes BYC making the trade difficult. I'm sure PJ would be happy with $2M in found money, too, if that's all that's needed to make a CBA rule work.

Bulls are WAY over the cap if they don't renounce Brown, too. 

That's the technical side of things. The practical side is how much salary Pax is willing to take back/add to the team. I doubt it's very much.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> For you and Showtyme both..
> 
> PJ would be nuts to try and get a contract on the FA market. Vet minimum? IF someone wanted him to actually play some.
> 
> ...


The practical issues are there. Even if Generalisimo Jerry decides he's willing to spend 75 million plus on the Bulls and we deal Deng and Gordon, we'd basically be throwing in our chips with a heady PG who is above average compared to others at his position(Hinrich), the best player in the league individually, and a declining big man who can't score. Those three would end up taking about 46 million of our cap space which is just ridiculous. Hinrich has to leave in any Kobe deal otherwise it is not worth doing from a financial/basketball standpoint.

I'm not comfortable with the idea of Gordon playing Point largely because of how he handled himself in the Detroit series i.e. backing his dribble into the halfcourt corner when confronted with a double team and either traveling or turning the ball over. Plus, Deng plays great without the ball and if we wanted to draw the Michael/Scottie parallels, Kobe and Luol would be a damn good comparison. I still say a Hinrich, Gordon, P.J. S&T, and 2008 1st Round Pick gets it done.

This of course is moot if Kobe really doesn't want out and was just saying those things to force Buss' hand (which is highly probable).

That being said...

PG-Duhon
SG-Kobe
SF-Deng
PF-Tyrus
C-Wallace

MLE PG/Thabo/Nocioni/Noah/Barrett/Griffin/#49 Pick/Khryapa/Marty Vicious

Is most likely the best team in the East next year considering we upgraded from Gordon to Kobe (who is a legit crunch time scorer) and will solve that easy basket problem (as opposed to simply needing a post presence, which so many people here confuse). Duhon to Hinrich is a necessary sacrifice, but Duhon is a better fit next to Kobe than Hinrich is anyways. 

I'd be comfortable losing anybody but Deng largely because I have visions of Kobe driving down the lane, being triple teamed and kicking it to Luol who so loves that mid-range J or Kobe throwing it up to Tyrus for one of those crowd-charging oops. 

Lakers would be worse temporarily, but still have...

PG-Hinrich
SG-Gordon
SF-Walton
PF-Odom
C-Bynum

Farmar/Evans/Cook(who could thrive in the pick-and-pop game the Lakers would have to run)/Vlad-Man/Kwame

And going into next season they'd have about 15 million in cap space when you know Kevin Garnett becomes a free agent. So theoretically they could have...

PG-Hinrich
SG-Gordon
SF-Odom
PF-Garnett
C-Bynum

Farmar/Walton/#19 Pick/Lakers Lotto Pick/Bulls 1st Round Pick/Cook/Vlad-Man

Which is a solid team from top to bottom. The question remains: Will John Paxson blow up a team he basically handpicked to get the game's top player and will the Lakers and Kobe iron out their differences?


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

I don't get the entire Gordon can't play point guard thing based on the Detroit series.

Chauncey Billups has a .72 Assist to Turnover ratio in the Cleveland series. Surely he can't play point guard in the league either....

This is the same guy who averaged 25.5 PPG 5.5 APG 5.3 RPG 1.3 SPG on 59.7 TS%.

That is oen of the best individual series throughout the entire playoffs. People act like he is a talentless hack who is a liability to have on the floor.

Payton and Williams only combined for 23 points in the entire series. They aren't the best offensive players, but 23 points holding the other teams two point guards too, is pretty damn good. Eddie Jones, the other guy Gordon guarded, only scored 10 ppoints in the series. He is hardly a liability. If he was a liability, he wouldn't have held all of the guys under their season numbers.

In addition...Gordon was the primary defender up until the 7:37 mark of the 3rd quarter in game 3 on Billups. Billups only averaged 17 points in the first two games, and averaged 3 turnovers. Rip Hamilton, with Hinrich on him, averaged 22 PPG and 3 turnovers.

In game 3, Billups only had 6 points with Gordon guarding him for the start of the game. When Ben got his 3rd foul, and the switch was made, Billups scored 17 points on Hinrich. Up to that point, Hamilton had 14 points on Hinrich. Only scored 2 points with Gordon on him the rest of the game.

Now lets look at games 4-6. Gordon primarily guarded Hamilton. Hamilton averaged 16.7 PPG and 1.3 turnovers. With Hinrich on him for those games, Billups averaged 20.3 PPG and 1.0 turnovers. 

He is hardly the defensive liability everyone makes him out to be. Its very much a myth.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> I don't get the entire Gordon can't play point guard thing based on the Detroit series.
> 
> Chauncey Billups has a .72 Assist to Turnover ratio in the Cleveland series. Surely he can't play point guard in the league either....
> 
> ...


Re-watch the games. Or watch them the first time. Either way, Gordon can't play the PG position. Throw out Assist to Turnover Ratio. Or TS%. Stats don't tell you everything. When Gordon was forced to play the point, the Bulls offense suffers.

EDIT: Forgot to add this. You are correct that Gordon isn't the defensive liability he seems to be. If I had to choose between Gordon and Hinrich, I take Gordon. But Hinrich is a superior defender than Gordon. It's not like either one of them was guarding NBDL scrubs. Billups and Hamilton are players and the offense runs through them pretty much.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

T.Shock said:


> Re-watch the games. Or watch them the first time. Either way, Gordon can't play the PG position. Throw out Assist to Turnover Ratio. Or TS%. Stats don't tell you everything. When Gordon was forced to play the point, the Bulls offense suffers.
> 
> EDIT: Forgot to add this. You are correct that Gordon isn't the defensive liability he seems to be. If I had to choose between Gordon and Hinrich, I take Gordon. But Hinrich is a superior defender than Gordon. It's not like either one of them was guarding NBDL scrubs. Billups and Hamilton are players and the offense runs through them pretty much.


The thing though, is that Ben's biggest weakness as a point guard gets covered by having a guy like Kobe next to him. Ben can do a lot of point guard things good. He can potentially be a very good point guard in the league. One of his biggest weaknesses is that the other team traps him. He is short, so his way out of it is to deliver a high pass. This is a team wide thing too, its just because of the lack of length around him. He gets trapped, Kirk Hinrich is 6'3". Kirk Hinrich doens't have the longest arms (Ben's arms are longer than Kirk's fwiw), so its not like he has this large target. With Kobe, Ben would have a 6'8" player with some good length on the arms, which gives Ben a bigger target to pass too. In addition, Wallace is 6'7". If we have a longer, taller post player, like the 7 foot Joakim Noah, thats another option that makes it easier for Ben to break the trap.

Also, Nocioni IS the trap breaker. Nocioni was the crap taker in the Pistons series. But in the Miami series, Ben was effectively able to make a bounce pass to an open Nocioni. No one else on the team figured out where to go to help Ben when he gets trapped, and actually turn it into an offensive advantage. Nocioni did, and we used it well in the Miami series. Nocioni, not so good in the Detroit series, so that didn't work as well.

Ben has A LOT of fixable problems imho. 

For one, continued respect from the refs will just cut his turnovers down.

He had 34 turnovers in the playoffs. 4 were offensive fouls. Remember these offensive fouls on Ben? These weren't charges, these were those kinds where you hear the ref blow the whistle, and be like aww, damn they called a foul on Ben, you have to be kidding me.

Then he had 14 ball handling turnovers. These are for the most part carrying calls. The more respect Ben gets, the more they'd let him get away with a carry. 

I think Ben Gordon is underrated severely though. He is so important to our team.

Like just looking at the playoff stats.

With Ben off the court, our offense just scored 82.2 points per 100 posessions. The offense becomes stagnant without Ben out there. Ben was receiving so much attention from the opposing teams that it opened it up for other guys on the team. In addition, we gave up 114.6 points per 100 posessions without Ben on the floor. When our offense becomes stagnant, we end up with bad shots, and that puts the other team in a better opportunity to score.

With Ben on the floor, we were 110.1 points scored per 100 posessions. We only gave up 100.2 points per 100 posessions with him on the floor for the opposing team.

Ben is the key to our offense functioning. Take Ben out of the equation, and our offense just stagnates. 

Ben Gordon had a +42.6 (per 100 possessions) for +/- in the playoffs. Thats just an insane #. Best in the playoffs so far. I know people want to just throw the stat out the window, but this is a true indicator of how bad of a team we were in the playoffs when Ben was on the bench. It grew about +20 points during the Pistons series, which he supposedly played very poorly in.

Now lets look at the clutch stats.

Ben took 33.7 shot attempts in the clutch per 48 minutes. He is taking a large bulk of shots in the clutch for our team. He is very important down the stretch, no matter how people like to slice it.

He shot 53.6 TS% during the clutch this year in 33.7 shot attempts per 48 minutes. Thats pretty damn good. More than 1/2 chance of Gordon making the shot in the clutch.

Now Kobe is very comparable. He took 33.6 shot attempts in the clutch per 48 minutes. He also took a large bulk of the shots for his team. Now lets compare....

Kobe had a 57.0 TS% during the clutch this year, that is very good. We'd basically be pairing two of the best clutch players in the league together. 

I still think that Ben is the better clutch player compared to Kobe overall. Ben's problem right now is that most everyone else misses a lot of shots during the clutch. The other teams know to focus on Ben. He doesn't have the luxury of being 6'8".

But lets look at the past 2 seasons, when Ben got less coverage during the cltuch.

Now last year, Ben took 30.8 shot attempts in the clutch per 48.

He shot 59.6 TS% last year in the clutch.

In his rookie year, he had 27.0 FGA per 48.

He shot 64.0 TS%. You aren't going to find many players who shot higher than that in the clutch over the course of the season. That is just amazing.

Each year he has gotten more and more attention.

But pairing him with Kobe, both would benefit in the clutch from the other team not being able to focus in on one of them. I think both could realistically shoot 61+ TS% in the clutch for us, and make us pretty much the best clutch team in NBA history.

Trading Ben is insane. He means so much to our team. He is the most important player on this team, and the face of our franchise, no use in trading him.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

*Kirk Hinrich*

http://www.82games.com/0607/06CHI3A.HTM

Passing Stats
3-Pt Assists - 87 (17.4% of ast)
Jump Assists - 240 (48.0% of ast)
Close Assists - 129 (25.8% of ast)
Dunk Assists - 44 (8.8% of ast)
Total Assists - 500
Passing T/O's - 95
Assist/Bad Pass - 5.3
*Passing Rating - 9.7*
AST48 - 8.5

Turnovers and Ball Handling
Offensive Fouls - 26
Bad Passes - 95
Ball Handling Turnovers - 69
Other Turnovers - 1
*'Hands' Rating - 20.5*

----------

*Ben Gordon*

http://www.82games.com/0607/06CHI4A.HTM

Passing Stats
3-Pt Assists - 57 (19.3% of ast)
Jump Assists - 142 (48.0% of ast)
Close Assists - 60 (20.3% of ast)
Dunk Assists - 37 (12.5% of ast)
Total Assists - 296
Passing T/O's - 89
Assist/Bad Pass - 3.3
*Passing Rating - 5.1*
AST48 - 5.3

Turnovers and Ball Handling
Offensive Fouls - 48
Bad Passes - 89
Ball Handling Turnovers - 111
Other Turnovers - 1
*'Hands' Rating - 12.3*

----------

I know Kirk steals Ben Gordon's assists, but Gordon commits as many bad passes, has 60% more ball handling turnovers, and doesn't primarily play the PG. Gordon is a great scorer with the ball in his hands, and I do think the ball should be in his hands more when his shot is on.

However, he really doesn't generate any better assists with the ball in his hands than does Kirk, except for a few percentage points with the dunks. Kirk is probably the worst at throwing the lob pass out of Kirk, Duhon, Gordon, and Sefolosha.

If Gordon played primarily PG, I don't think his TOs and such would get linearly worse, however one would have to think they would definitely be worse.

If you want someone to run a pick and roll or curl offense, Kirk is the guy. If you want someone to create offense for themselves, give it to Ben. It's a luxury to have the ball in Ben's hands when his shot is falling.

I really don't understand the Ben vs. Kirk debates in general. Of course discussing fit in trade talks is a different matter.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

You're comparing Kirk at PG and Gordon at SG for most of their minutes.

I'd like to clear things up so people udnerstand where I'm coming from in these "debates."

I'm not a Gordon jockrider. That is, he's not necessarily my favorite player on the team or in the league. What I do see in him is the one player closest to the ability to be one of the elite stars in this league, and I do think a championship team needs at least one elite star. So for me, the issue is more one of he has to play PG to be that elite player; he's pidgeon-holed into being a one-dimensional player on offense. He's a fine defender, but too short to be most effective as a SG.

Hinrich is jack of all trades, master of none. He's not the best or even near the best in the league at any one thing; he's quite good at most everything. Gordon is near the best in the league at at least one thing (two: shooting, scoring, 3pt shooting), and his skills are extremely rare. This is what makes picking one of the two to be traded a tough choice. And I do mean it is a tough choice.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> You're comparing Kirk at PG and Gordon at SG for most of their minutes.
> 
> I'd like to clear things up so people udnerstand where I'm coming from in these "debates."
> 
> ...


Regarding the Kobe trade though. We'd have an elite star and a fantastic sidekick in Deng. I'd prefer the jack-of-all-trades Hinrich who can run the point as opposed to Gordon.


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> You're comparing Kirk at PG and Gordon at SG for most of their minutes.


That's my point. I know Gordon would have more assists if he ran the point. But the point of the matter is look at all the ball handling and bad pass turnovers he had NOT running the PG. Now compare that with Hinrich who primarily plays PG. Are those likely to increase or decrease with the ball in his hands more often (when he doesn't have to). The assist/TO ratio is likely to get a bit better, because he would have more opportunities and experience. However, you would still expect the TOs to go up.

Breaking down each assists into % of their total assists leads to indicate that both players get the same types of assists, with Ben possibly getting his teammates more dunks. A lot of the Ben should be PG argument states that Ben can break down the defense better than Kirk. The breakdown of types of assists does not really indicate this to be true.

I would love to see Gordon learn to shoot midrange jumpers off a curl. This season, he has largely ran the curls as a decoy for Deng. I think that's the next improvement he has to make to his game. Currently, he is only good as a spot up shooter or creating separation with the ball in his own hands. I would love to see him involved more in the offense when the ball is in Kirk's hands.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Whoa -- in his chat right now on ESPN, Chris Sheridan said he thinks that there is no way Kobe *won't* be traded, and that the Knicks are the front-runner to land him. Not because they can put together anything resembling a competitive package, but because of Kobe's no-trade clause and NY best fitting the profile of the city/team he wants to play for.

Go figure.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Rhyder said:


> That's my point. I know Gordon would have more assists if he ran the point. But the point of the matter is look at all the ball handling and bad pass turnovers he had NOT running the PG. Now compare that with Hinrich who primarily plays PG. Are those likely to increase or decrease with the ball in his hands more often (when he doesn't have to). The assist/TO ratio is likely to get a bit better, because he would have more opportunities and experience. However, you would still expect the TOs to go up.


I'm not that sure because in practice Ben had the ball in his hands a whole lot anyway. While I think his TO numbers would go up, is it really that much of a problem if the overall effect is more opportunities for teammates and a higher A/T ratio?


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## Rhyder (Jul 15, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> I'm not that sure because in practice Ben had the ball in his hands a whole lot anyway. While I think his TO numbers would go up, is it really that much of a problem if the overall effect is more opportunities for teammates and a higher A/T ratio?


In an isolated instance, yes. However, what do you have if Gordon's effectiveness only goes up by a little bit and Hinrich's goes down by a lot?

Of course, I am of the opinion that Hinrich would only be a very average NBA 2-guard. The offense stagnates with Duhon plays with Hinrich not only because we're substituting Duhon for Gordon, but also Hinrich sliding over to the two spot. I would much rather Kirk keep working in his PG game and Gordon continuing to work on his SG skills.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> Whoa -- in his chat right now on ESPN, Chris Sheridan said he thinks that there is no way Kobe *won't* be traded, and that the Knicks are the front-runner to land him. Not because they can put together anything resembling a competitive package, but because of Kobe's no-trade clause and NY best fitting the profile of the city/team he wants to play for.
> 
> Go figure.


To be fair he says the Knicks and Bulls but for some reason believes that Marbury, Frye, David Lee, and the 23rd pick is a far superior package to whatever the Bulls put together. And he claims that the Bulls should go for Kobe with a Gordon, Deng, Tyrus, Nocioni(S&T), and #9 pick package. So basically the Bulls would be Kobe, Hinrich, Ben Wallace, and that's it. Least each guy can have a couple of lockers.


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## T-Time (Mar 3, 2007)

Why in the blue hell would he want to play for the New York Knicks? WHY? If he "Wants to win" then the Bulls are better suited for that than the Knicks are.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

Something creative I came up with that works on Draft Night...

*Chicago sends:*
Kirk Hinrich(PG)
Ben Gordon(SG)
Ben Wallace(C)

*Chicago receives:*
Kobe Bryant(SG)
Vladimir Radmanovic(PF)
Zaza Pachulia(C)

*Lakers send:*
Kobe Bryant(SG)
Vladimir Radmanovic(PF)

_Lakers receive:_
Kirk Hinrich(PG)
Ben Gordon(SG)
Zach Randolph(PF)
Lorenzen Wright(C)

*Portland sends:*
Jarrett Jack
Zach Randolph
#37 Pick

*Portland receives:*
#3 Pick
Josh Childress(SF)
Speedy Claxton(PG)

*Atlanta sends:*
Speedy Claxton(PG)
Josh Childress(SF)
Lorenzen Wright(C)
Zaza Pachulia(C)

*Atlanta receives:*
Jarrett Jack(PG)
Ben Wallace(C)
#37 Pick

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=110~1016~2381~1981~885~2373~150~2016~959~2768~1017&teams=4~4~13~13~1~22~22~4~13~1~13

Bulls would have...

PG-Chris Duhon(3.2 mil)
SG-Kobe Bryant(19.5 mil)
SF-Luol Deng(3.3 mil)
PF-Tyrus Thomas(3.5 mil)
C-Zaza Pachulia(4.0 mil)

Dee Brown(PG)(2.8 mil)*Free Agent
Thabo Sefolosha(SG/SF)(1.8 mil)
Andres Nocioni(SF/PF)(7.2 mil)*Re-Signed
Joakim Noah(PF/C)(2.8 mil)*#9 Pick

DaShaun Wood(PG)(700,000)*#49 Pick
Adrian Griffin(SG)(1.6 mil)
Viktor Khryapa(SF)(1.9 mil)
Vladimir Radmanovic(PF)(5.6 mil)
Marty Vicious(C)(700,000)*Re-Signed

_TOTAL: 58.6 million_

Lakers would have...

PG-Kirk Hinrich(11.0 mil)
SG-Ben Gordon(4.9 mil)
SF-Lamar Odom(13.5 mil)
PF-Zach Randolph(13.3 mil)
C-Andrew Bynum(2.2 mil)

Jordan Farmar(PG)(1.0 mil)
Morris Almond(SG/SF)(1.7 mil)*#19 Pick
Luke Walton(SF/PF)(6.5 mil)*Re-Signed
Kwame Brown(PF/C)(9.1 mil)

Sasha Vujacic(PG)(1.7 mil)
Trey Johnson(SG)(700,000)*#48 Pick
Reyshawn Terry(SF)(700,000)*#40 Pick
Brian Cook(PF)(3.5 mil)
Lorenzen Wright(C)(3.2 mil)

_TOTAL: 73.0 million_

Hawks would have...

PG-Jarrett Jack(1.2 mil)
SG-Joe Johnson(13.5 mil)
SF-Josh Smith(2.2 mil)
PF-Marvin Williams(4.5 mil)
C-Ben Wallace(15.5 mil)

Tyronn Lue(PG)(3.5 mil)
Nick Young(SG/SF)(2.5 mil)*#11 Pick
Corliss Williamson(SF/PF)(4.5 mil)*Free Agent
Shelden Williams(PF/C)(3.2 mil)

Anthony Johnson(PG)(2.9 mil)
Salim Stoudamire(SG)(800,000)
Jared Dudley(SF)(700,000)*#47 Pick
Solomon Jones(C)(700,000)

_TOTAL: 55.7 million_

Blazers would have...

PG-Mike Conley Jr.(2.9 mil)*#3 Pick
SG-Brandon Roy(2.9 mil)
SF-Josh Childress(3.6 mil)
PF-LaMarcus Aldridge(4.3 mil)
C-Greg Oden(3.5 mil)*#1 Pick

Sergio Rodriguez(PG/SG)(1.0 mil)
Fred Jones(SG)(3.3 mil)
Ime Udoka(SF)(2.4 mil)*Partial MLE Re-Signed
Joel Pryzbilla(C)(5.8 mil)

Speedy Claxton(PG)(6.3 mil)
Martell Webster(SG)(3.0 mil)
Darius Miles(SF)(8.3 mil)
Raef LaFrentz(PF/C)(11.8 mil)

_TOTAL: 59.1 million_

*Why Bulls do it:*
They get the game's best player in Kobe without giving up Deng, Tyrus, or the #9 pick. Also, get a post player who can score a bit in Zaza Pachulia. Free up the money to re-sign Nocioni. Don't lose a lot defensively. Solid starting line-up with two 20+ scorers(Deng, Kobe) and a deep bench with a long guard(Thabo), two-way player(Nocioni), and a promising young big man(Noah). 

*Why Bulls don't do it:*
Give up on the Hinrich, Gordon, Wallace trio after only a year. Lack depth at point guard. Possible problems between Skiles and Kobe. Lose a little defensively at the center position. Basically open next season with a completely new roster and could struggle on the Circus Trip again.

*Why Lakers do it:*
Grant Kobe his release and build around five solid, but not great players. Free up some cash to re-sign Walton. Get younger and more athletic at all five positions. Improve defensively. 

*Why Lakers don't do it:*
Lack drawing power and the star player to carry a below average roster with Kobe gone. Basically throw their chips in with a couple of head cases and two guys who've never played with head cases. 

*Why Hawks do it:*
Get a starting point and a starting center to go with Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, and Marvin Williams. Get better on defense and the boards with Big Ben. 

*Why Hawks don't do it:*
Tie up a lot of money in Wallace. Lose a lottery pick. Make a big move despite troublesome ownership situation.

*Why Portland does it:*
Keep Oden and Conley together. Get rid of Randolph and bury Miles on the bench forever ending the Jail Blazers nickname. Have perhaps the most promising young nucleus with Conley, Roy, Childress/Webster, Aldridge, and Oden. Free up some salary space by getting rid of Randolph.

*Why Portland doesn't do it:*
Lose their starting point guard and power forward. Ummm, that's it really.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Rhyder said:


> That's my point. I know Gordon would have more assists if he ran the point. But the point of the matter is look at all the ball handling and bad pass turnovers he had NOT running the PG. Now compare that with Hinrich who primarily plays PG. Are those likely to increase or decrease with the ball in his hands more often (when he doesn't have to). The assist/TO ratio is likely to get a bit better, because he would have more opportunities and experience. However, you would still expect the TOs to go up.
> 
> Breaking down each assists into % of their total assists leads to indicate that both players get the same types of assists, with Ben possibly getting his teammates more dunks. A lot of the Ben should be PG argument states that Ben can break down the defense better than Kirk. The breakdown of types of assists does not really indicate this to be true.
> 
> I would love to see Gordon learn to shoot midrange jumpers off a curl. This season, he has largely ran the curls as a decoy for Deng. I think that's the next improvement he has to make to his game. Currently, he is only good as a spot up shooter or creating separation with the ball in his own hands. I would love to see him involved more in the offense when the ball is in Kirk's hands.


PG gets the ball at the top of the key. Gordon at SG gets the ball on the wing and dribbles across the FT line. It's about WHERE the guys get the ball to start with. As SG, Gordon is relied upon to drive and draw fouls in ways the PG in our system doesn't. These result in a lot of TOs that are charging fouls or bad passes beause he's supposed to finish the play and not pass in the first place. This is why comparing minutes at SG with minutes at PG doesn't make sense.

In any case, I don't see any problem for the combo of Gordon and Kobe to bring the ball up court and get the ball into Gordon's or Kobe's hands to start the plays.


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