# Zeke does not really want Jamal



## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Since he's been offering stupid proposals and is insulting enogh to make them worse.

No offense to U NY fans but U actually have nothing to offer the Bulls except expiring contracts , and I won't even do the original Pax demand (JC,JYD and ERob for Anderson,Deke,Othella and Frank Wiliams I think)

The worst contract in this senario is without a doubt Shandons.
Makes more money than JYD (who's more effective) and more years than ERobs.So actually the Bulls R doing NY a favour capwise.

If Zeke wants Jamal (and It looks like he'll need him with Houstons Knees) he has to realise he has to pay,and since he's the one approaching Bulls he has to pay even more.

So here's my reply to Zekes redicilous offers , which is not as insulting as his , and is in our favour - all depends if he really wants jamal , cause he does need him

Bulls trade

Jamal(6 mil and 3 for the trade),ERob,JYD,Jefferies and AD

NY trades

Tim Thomas,Anderson(yucky contract),Deke and Harrington

If Zeke ain't happy with that , I'd be much happier to have nothing to do with NY and Just sign Jamal for the mle ourselves.


Zeke - lay off the maskalin , earth is calling...


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

in your dreams. sign and trades favor the team where the playor is being traded to. that trade is simply stupid, since tim thomas is better then crawford.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> in your dreams. sign and trades favor the team where the playor is being traded to. that trade is simply stupid, since tim thomas is better then crawford.


Well , thats just your opinion.

The trade has to favour the side that does not want to do the trade in the 1st place - Zeke wants the trade - Pax does not.

Oh - and Jamal does not get paid 13 mil to do what tim thomas does.

And it's not in my dreams at all - I personally hope Pax has nothing to do with NY and it's bunch of awful contracts.


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## MJG (Jun 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> in your dreams. sign and trades favor the team where the playor is being traded to. that trade is simply stupid, since tim thomas is better then crawford.


Why must a sign and trade favor the team getting the player? It looks like to me that the Bulls have all the power here. Basically they can tell you what they want, which gives you two choices -- do it or tough luck. They're under no pressure to do anything that doesn't benefit them.

On the other point, maybe it's just me, but I'd rather have Crawford on my team than Thomas. He's younger (24 vs. 27), plays the more coveted position (big point), and doesn't have quite the same reputation of underachieving.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

look at every sign and trade in the history of the league. Tell me, who got the better end of the deal for Kenyon Martin?

the only reason the bulls have a advantage over the nets with denver is that they can give jamal more money then us straight up.

the restricted free agent has the power to choose which team he wants to be traded to. Its either here, or nothing. If he doesnt work out a deal, then theres a disgruntled jamal crawford playing for the bulls. obviously he doesnt wanna stay there, and doesnt feel respected since they drafted a guard every year hes been there.

and if youd rather have crawford fine, but who would play small forward for us? penny hardaway? yeah right. it doesnt make us a better team in any way

the fact is, paxson was gonna take all those crappy players for jamal and your terrible contracts simply if he replaced moochie with dikembe. now lets see what happens.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Plain and simple..Pax doe NOT want JC,otherwise he would have made him an offer he couldnt refuse and he would STOP drafting combo guards every #$%^&ing year....

If you think we are trading TT for JC,you are out of your mind.You can keep a disgruntled pissed off JC and let him be a cancer with EROB....

Or sign him for one year and let him walk next year...

Or talk with Zeke,the ONLY gm bidding for JC at the current time....

But stop dreaming about TT,it is NOT going to happen


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Truth hit it, if Paxson wanted Jamal we would be talking about this, he'd be a Bull, so forget who's the best player in the trade, it's not relevant here. This trade is primarily about trying to situate a player where he'll be happy, then it's about getting something in the process, then it's about not having to pay him since he's not in your long term plans.

And as bad as Shandon is he's simply more useful to you than JYD and Erob. Plus you can turn our expiring contracts into talent by trading them off elsewhere if that's what your after.

I think Zekes offer of 10M per is too high. At this point I don't care if we don't get Crawford, he shows flashes but he's not that great. Steph Jackson and Q-Rich are as good and they went for around 6M per. 

I say offer Crawford the full MLE. If we get him for that it's a good deal, if Paxson matches so be it, they'll still want to move him eventually and we can try to work out another trade down the road at his preferred salary. If we lose him so be it.

I thought Isiah was gonna try to break this cycle of overpaying but it seems not. At this point I'd rather do no trades then overpay guys like Craw and Damp. We're offering contracts to these guys we hope they will grow into, but if they don't we're stuck with yet more unmovable contracts. How about for a change we sign guys for what they're worth and hope they exceed the value of their contracts. Then we will have players people want to trade with us for instead of always having junk.

I frankly could care less if Isiah gives moochie or Deke, it's the goddamn contract to Crawford that's bugging me.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> Plain and simple..Pax doe NOT want JC,otherwise he would have made him an offer he couldnt refuse and he would STOP drafting combo guards every #$%^&ing year....
> 
> If you think we are trading TT for JC,you are out of your mind.You can keep a disgruntled pissed off JC and let him be a cancer with EROB....
> ...


QED


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Oak,i agree..we have to be very careful with these 10 -12 million dollar deals especially when we are talking 5-7 years in duration.If we dont,the over the cap merry go round will never end.

And its not like we are signing a young Magic and Shaq...JC and Damp??10-12 million per???I just do not know about the sanity of that


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> Oak,i agree..we have to be very careful with these 10 -12 million dollar deals especially when we are talking 5-7 years in duration.If we dont,the over the cap merry go round will never end.
> 
> And its not like we are signing a young Magic and Shaq...JC and Damp??10-12 million per???I just do not know about the sanity of that


5 stars


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

2 facts

1. Zeke is the one approaching Pax - not the other way around

2.Zeke's offers so far R nothing but insulting.NY has nothing to offer and IT has to do way better than what he's thinking right now - otherwise NY will have a huge 1 gaurd rotation with Stephan.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Some more facts

1) Pax does not really want JC

2) Zeke is the highest and only bidder for his services

3) JC wants out,otherwise he would have signed

4) ERob is a cancer,as will JC ,if he has to stay in Chi

5) Cancer spreads...


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Our offers are hardly insulting.

1. You guys have been drafting his replacement for years, it's hardly like we're undermining your long term plans.

2. The guy has been missing at training and workouts. He's going to force your damn hand or make life hell on that team. That's just what rookies and a guy like Curry needs to be exposed to...


3. As we're constantly told, NY has nothing but garbage that nobody wants, so what do you expect?

4. Shandon as an offensively but hardworking SF is more useful to you guys than JYD or Erob, and JYD's contract is longer than Shandon's.

5. We are also giving you expiring contracts you can trade elsewhere for talent you do respect, or allow to come off the books.

6. We'd be drastically overpaying Crawford at 10M/yr. He's worth no more than 5M/yr to you guys but you think we should give you every good contract we have for the privilege of overpaying by double?

7. Isiah and Paxson WILL work out a deal and you will feel insulted, might as well start getting over it now, just like we have to get over the fact we'll forever be bidding against ourselves and overpaying.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Isiah and Paxson WILL work out a deal and you will feel insulted, might as well start getting over it now, just like we have to get over the fact we'll forever be bidding against ourselves and overpaying.


sad but true


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Fact

"(The Knicks) believe that if they sign Jamal to a big contract (6 years, $60 million), they will do us a big favor," Paxson said. "We don't see it that way. We've said all along the only way we would trade Jamal is if we received absolute financial relief in return."


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Tell ya what, at 60M Crawford is way overpaid and you know it. So keep your 60M man who plays no D, has poor shot selection and shoots below .400. Let him interfere with the development of your other (replacement) guards, let him whine and scrap with Skiles, and let his salary prevent you from re-signing your bigmen. It's okay, Paxson said so.

Meanwhile, lets just go with someone cheap like DJ. I personally haven't seen greatness in him yet, but heck, get him to jack up as many shots a game as Crawford and he'll score just as much and probably pull more rebs and play better D.

There are just so many unmovable contracts we can carry and still expect to improve through trades.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

If nothing else Zeke has made JC an extremely pissed off angry Bull,and pax offering the MLE wont change that.The Bulls have to deal him,and at 10 million per,I am not dying to sign him..Unfortunetly DJ had a weak summer league,but Arisa looks like he could be special.....

Contrary to some Bulls fans belief,the Bulls are not in a good situation regarding JC.He now feels the love of IT and smells 10 million per...Personally,I think ZEKE included Moochie cause he knew Pax would never go for it.This way he could offer JC an obscene 10 million per,knowing full well the Bulls would veto any deal with Moochie,so he was safe.Now if he makes a lower offer to JC in a deal that the Bulls like as well,Pax will be the villan and JC will sign out of spite..BRIILIANT ZEKE :laugh:


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Okay, I decided to check something out. I compared this past seasons stats between Jamal and Dermarr and adjusted Dermarr's totals to what they'd be if he'd played as many minutes per game as Jamal.

Keep in mind JC has gotten a lot more playing time in his career than Dermarr, and was the focal point of Chicagos offense, and is thus playing with much more confidence. One can imagine how much more favorably Dermarr would match up if he were given a similar opportunity.

(I'm showing actual MPG and shooting percentages but adjusted totals for Dermarr)


Jamal Dermarr

PPG 17.3 13.9
RPG 3.5 4.9
APG 5.1 1.3
SPG 1.39 1.0
BPG .36 .84
FG% .386 .371
FT% .833 .903
3P% .317 .361
MPG 35.1 13.7

I've said it before that I don't think Dermarr is a star in the making, but I'm not convinced Jamal is either. If Dermarr would cost us around 2M/yr and Jamal 9-10M/yr, doesn't it make sense to develop DJ on the cheap rather than give JC star money and hope he fulfills?

Anyway, you know IT wants to make things happen fast, but I really don't want Damp and Jamal signed long and big. One of them at the most, but not both.

And speaking of Damp... Atlanta is said to be offering him 4 years at 40M. I thought he wanted to leave GS so he could compete and get to the playoffs. If so can't we offer him the same deal and wouldn't he presumably want to take it from us over a perennial loser? The competition is 4/40M and we've got to go all the way to 6/67M, or whatever our offer was, and burden ourselves with his huge unmovable contract when he's old, broken and lazy? Have we no confidence that a player will chose us over lowly Atlanta if he can get equal money here? We have to over pay by 27M to be attractive? I really don't get it....


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

But we won't be as stupid as Zeke to sign him for 60 mil.

we can probably sign him for the mle (which he's worth) cause at the moment only IT is willing to pay more.


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## hatnlvr (Aug 14, 2003)

Well whatever happens I still hope the Knicks resign Demarr, he is young, athletic and can play multiple positions. He is exactly what we need on the squad.

As far as Paxson and Isiah's dealing, it is obvious that Paxson what's all of our expiring contracts and to gives us all of his crap. If the deal goes down it will be extremely lopsided and at this point may not even be worth it for the Knicks.


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## SPIN DOCTOR (Oct 31, 2002)

This makes no sense whatsoever.
Why would either team consider Jamal for 6 / 60 when NOBODY ELSE has even offered him 6 / 38. 

You cant be a GM for long if you are competing with yourself. 

Pax may wish Jamal takes the QO and is one and done, but Jamal wants security. Look for a much smaller deal than whats been mentioned here. IT is sending smokescreens to the Knick fans, playing for headlines. If he was serious, he would make a serious offer to get something done, or at LEAST considered. That has not happened. Goodwin is the fall-guy in this situation, both GM's have set him up nicely. 

Bottom line - Jamal is an OK player, he is only a bench guy in your guard rotation. He would be after Starbury, H20, and Penny. He would get less burn with you than with the Bulls in a 3 guard rotation. Bulls are thin at the 2, there is no reason for them to make this deal as offered.


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## GONYK (Aug 14, 2002)

I think this deal hasn't happened because Isiah is shopping around all his pieces before he commits to this trade, not because Pax didn't want the original proposal (the one w/o Mooch). IT knows this trade goes down when HE says so because, as was stated before, we are really bidding against ourselves, and also because Goodwin is in our corner since his 10% is on the line. Bulls fans who think that Pax is holding out on _us_ don't even have a grasp on the situation. Capspace is just as valuable to you as JC, since you need it to keep Curry and possibly Chandler down the line. To Bulls fans, don't act like you can shaft us on a trade just because you have JC, because Pax doesn't really want him, he wants cap room. To my fellow Knick fans, Crawford is better than anyone on our bench, and maybe 8-10 per is a little expensive, but this kid will be our starting SG in 2-3 years. It's not so bad then. He has potential, and Zeke has to take a chance if he wants success. I don't care, it's not my money.


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> in your dreams. sign and trades favor the team where the playor is being traded to. that trade is simply stupid, since tim thomas is better then crawford.


What has TT done his career? He may be better than JC now, but not in the future..


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

Tim Thomas' .433 3 point percentage in the playoffs is among the best in the history of the nba. thats in 33 playoff games. how many has jamal played? Tim helped the bucks get to conference finals including being the leading scorer for the bucks in the clinching game against orlando, when Big Dogg was shut down by mcgrady

Tim tied an nba record, hitting 8 treys in one half. those 8 threes was a bucks franchise record, later tied by ray allen

jamal cant even hit 40 percent in the regular season overall.

was once a sixth man of the year candidate, the runner up i believe.

what has tim done in this league!?

what has jamal done? scored 50? so did Tony Delk.

who else would think crawford is better then tim then a guy with "JC" is in username.

bulls fans dont even like crawford. complaining about his overrated handle and his shot selection.


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## SPIN DOCTOR (Oct 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GONYK</b>!
> I think this deal hasn't happened because Isiah is shopping around all his pieces before he commits to this trade, not because Pax didn't want the original proposal (the one w/o Mooch). IT knows this trade goes down when HE says so because, as was stated before, we are really bidding against ourselves, and also because Goodwin is in our corner since his 10% is on the line. Bulls fans who think that Pax is holding out on _us_ don't even have a grasp on the situation. Capspace is just as valuable to you as JC, since you need it to keep Curry and possibly Chandler down the line. To Bulls fans, don't act like you can shaft us on a trade just because you have JC, because Pax doesn't really want him, he wants cap room. To my fellow Knick fans, Crawford is better than anyone on our bench, and maybe 8-10 per is a little expensive, but this kid will be our starting SG in 2-3 years. It's not so bad then. He has potential, and Zeke has to take a chance if he wants success. I don't care, it's not my money.


I agree with the first statement here. Pax will not let Jamal go If the deal to accomodate him hurts the team. Remember he is not coveted leaguewide, as evidenced by the complete lack of interest shown by the other 28 teams. This is getting stupid, too bad Pax cannot send Jamal abd Goodwin to Atlanta!


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> Tim Thomas' .433 3 point percentage in the playoffs is among the best in the history of the nba. thats in 33 playoff games. how many has jamal played? Tim helped the bucks get to conference finals including being the leading scorer for the bucks in the clinching game against orlando, when Big Dogg was shut down by mcgrady
> 
> Tim tied an nba record, hitting 8 treys in one half. those 8 threes was a bucks franchise record, later tied by ray allen
> ...


Your talking about what he's done when he was on Milwakee.. What has he done for the Knicks? Last season he wasn't doing much for the Bucks and they sent him to you guys...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I wish this deal would just get DONE.I am sick of hearing about it.JC wants out,Pax doesnt want him and IT does...I would much rather sign him to 5-6 years as opposed to Damp.

Without JC we have a battered H20,a damaged Penny and Demmar.And Mr Anderson....

Damp would be nice at the MLE or at 10 per for 3 years...

And if worse comes to worse,Naz and Baker are servicable


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

The reason fans are getting so bent out of shape over this deal is it's in the press so much, There are other FAs out there un-signed, where the negotiations are equally protracted but it's behind the scenes and nobody's sweating it.

My feeling is that Pax and Zeke already have a couple of variations on the deal they know will work, they've agreed to them in principle, and they can come back to them at any time. Meanwhile Isiah is seeing what else is out there and how he can use those few expiring contracts to get more than one deal done.

But the press, mostly baited on by JCs agent, Goodwin, keeps asking what's the holdup. (it's in Goodwin's interest to get a deal done quickly while Isiah is still willing to overpay. If Isiah goes elsewhere it could be the MLE for JC)). Pax says "we need cap relief", and Isiah says "I can't give him all my assets". That doesn't mean there is animosity between them or that they are stuck, it just means until one relents the previously agreed to deal(s) are on hold. Paxson has no need to relent quickly, the off-season is young, and Isiah is in no hurry as long as he thinks there are still bigger and better deals worth pursuing. But they both know if/when something changes they can go back to plan A and be done with it in no time. Neither Pax or Zeke are sweating the issue, the only one who really has something to gain by haste is Goodwin, and he's the one feeding the frenzy.


When Isiah is certain he can't get two starters out of a pool containing of at least: Walker, JC, Damp, SAR, Wince, Swift, etc, he will pursue the single best player (to us) of them. It may be JC, it may be someone bigger or better.

Meanwhile, the season doesn't begin until October. There's really no hurry.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jcintosun911</b>!
> 
> 
> Your talking about what he's done when he was on Milwakee.. What has he done for the Knicks? Last season he wasn't doing much for the Bucks and they sent him to you guys...


C'mon, Penny owned you. You asked what TT has done in his career and that's what he answered.

Now you are asking what he did for us. Subtracting out games of 12 mins or less he gave us 19ppg/5rpg, and he did it from spots on the floor nobody else on the team can hit from. That's plenty sufficient as a second or third option. Crawford only gave the bulls 17/5 and that's as the focal point of their offense. 

So the question now is, what has Crawford done for you? It can't be about shooting percentage, leadership, or wins, so what is it?


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

Where did you get the idea that I was a bulls fan? I'm tired of Knicks Fans acting like the players they have are actually worth something... The only player that has any market value on your team is Starbury, who isn't on the trading block... You would be lucky to get that trade done with Chicago.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jcintosun911</b>!
> Where did you get the idea that I was a bulls fan?


Oops, I confused your ring avatar with the trophy avatar of the guy who started the thread. Similar concepts, no doubt.




> I'm tired of Knicks Fans acting like the players they have are actually worth something... The only player that has any market value on your team is Starbury, who isn't on the trading block... You would be lucky to get that trade done with Chicago.


Nobody here is saying our players are so great, but trading TT plus expiring contracts for JC just doesn't make sense for us. JC and TT are a draw, and then we just wasted our expiring contracts that would be better used elsewhere.

Just because you don't like Knicks fans or our roster doesn't mean we should jump at every proposal sent over here.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jcintosun911</b>!
> Where did you get the idea that I was a bulls fan? I'm tired of Knicks Fans acting like the players they have are actually worth something... The only player that has any market value on your team is Starbury, who isn't on the trading block... You would be lucky to get that trade done with Chicago.


I agree - and I think With Stephans contract he's not that wanted around as well.

NY has nothing to offer - not in bb anyway


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Then why did you come here with your trade proposal? 

NY fans get a bad rap. Most of this stuff is instigated because your star players (VC and JC) would rather play here than there. Maybe you need to spend a little more time on your own board figuring out why that is.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

your gm said he wanted CAP RELIEF. i hope you guys know what that is. Thats why were giving all these EXPIRING contracts for JC and your two huge, long term deals in ERob and JYD. so whats the problem?


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

The Bulls wouldn't want anyone of your players.. Paxton is trying to build a young team that focuses on team work and effort, not a bunch of overpayed, past their prime, veterans...


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

read buddy, please read. someone posted a quote of Paxson saying he wants cap relief for crawford, THATS IT. were not handing out terrible players, were giving expiring contracts and taking back terrible contracts. thats cap relief. now be quiet


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

This thread is a verbal beatdown.

It's pretty funny. Poor bull's fans.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bullet</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree - and I think With Stephans contract he's not that wanted around as well.
> ...


Hahha I can't believe some of you are actually serious.


NY has nothing to offer in basketball yet made the playoffs.

Hahha man you guys are silly.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> read buddy, please read. someone posted a quote of Paxson saying he wants cap relief for crawford, THATS IT. were not handing out terrible players, were giving expiring contracts and taking back terrible contracts. thats cap relief. now be quiet


I posted it - thats what Pax wants , but still - Andersons contract is the worst moving in the trade by far.

*Son of oakley* - sorry if I offended U - The trade proposal was Just cause I felt personally offended by Zekes offers(I know it is stupid,cant help it).

Like offering to take Pips expiring contract instead of ERob - thats just insulting - why would Pax trade an expiring contract (that also happens to have his shirt hung in BC) for another expiring.
Or offering us Moochie's contract.

Pax wanted all your expirers and Zeke is trying all the ways to go around it - and to add I would not do the trade Pax agreed to as well since it gives us no serious relief on the long run if we take Shandons contract.

Again , did not mean to offend NT fans , just to cool off on Zeke insulting offers , and I sure as hell wouldn't wanna mess with the son of oakely 

And in the other thread I realize it was a Blazers fan offering the deal - but Blazers fans were trying to get Rahim trades all around the board , and I think NY will have to offer a player with some worth to get Reef expirer - like KT or TT at minimum.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

man,what is going on???IT comes home empty handed???

Over Deke???

I wonder what he plans to do with Deke,that he is so insistent on not including him in the trade...


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## SPIN DOCTOR (Oct 31, 2002)

It's simple really.

The Bulls are much stronger if the do not make the trade (IT latest proposal), and keep Jamal. There is NO REASON for them to change their mind, both IT and Pax have held firm. 

This may have more significance to IT than Pax, from fans perspective. But in the end, it really does not change either teams fortunes that much.

At this point, the offer would have to MUCH Inproved just to get these two back to the table. Seems bleak!


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I honestly do not see what IT is trying to accomplish at this point.Pax does not want Moochie,and he dam well shouldnt.

I am confused


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bullet</b>!
> 
> 
> I posted it - thats what Pax wants , but still - Andersons contract is the worst moving in the trade by far.
> ...


Hey Bullet, I appreciate your explanations. Sometimes it's tough being a Knicks fan too. I can't tell you how many times we get some pissed off Raptors fan, or other non-playoff team, coming in here telling us our team sucks. Like we're asking.... and/or need to be told...

Somehow this year the Knicks have become every refugee players favorite RUMORED destination, and of course Isiah and fans would love to have Kobe, Damp, Sheed, etc come play for the MLE. But we silly fans don't start the rumors, the players do. Then every pissed off fan has to tell us how stupid we are for bringing it up. Or god forbid someone doesn't want to gut their team for Vince Carter!!!

As far as far as JC is concerned... a couple of months ago most knicks fans would have assumed we'd have to give up at least KT for him, and we'd never see Shandon going to another team. But again, we (NY and Chi, as two of the biggest media markets) get played by the media into thinking not only can we get JC for expiring contracts and Shandon, but if we can hold back Deke we can get Walker or Damp too. Again, this isn't some punk fan making up wild stuff, we get it from our punk beat writers, and every TV analyst out there. Naturally if we think we can get two starters for our junk we're going to want to take it, but we're not making the stuff up and going to other boards and proposing ridiculous sheet, it seeks us out and finds us.

Worst of all, we try not to believe the hype, try not to get our hopes up, but still dejection sets in each time a nice rumor falls by the wayside. Naturally we didn't get the good deals, like Kobe or Sheed for the MLE. We wont get Vince for obvious reasons. We knew we'd never get T-Mac or Shaq. We know we don't have the assets to get the top guys. But the lower tiered guys who get paid to much and come with baggage are our stock and trade. As such, until some of these guys like Damp, Walker, and JC get signed there is still cause for hope and despair.

Peace, respect.

PS, Brace yourself for next year, when we'll have $30M coming off the books, instead of the measly $10M of this year.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

truth and spin, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there a proposal that the sides did agree on --something like [JC, Erob, JYD] for [Shandon, Deke, Othella, Frank]? Then the Damp rumor came out and Zeke wanted to replace Deke with Moochie plus cash?

If so then I assume these guys know they can come back to that if needed. Meanwhile Goodwin will see what else he can drum up and Isiah will too, and Pax will just wait knowing he's cool if he does something or if he does nothing.

In that scenario the only one sweating is Goodwin, and he's the jerk feeding the press mumbo jumbo. Meanwhile, Pax almost doesn't care what happens, he's good either way, and Isiah knows he can fish around elsewhere until either he's exhausted all other options or Goodwin lets him know there's other interest in Jamal.

While the two GMs calmly go about their business, Goodwin tries to manipulate the fans into a tizzy to put pressure on their GMs to hurry a trade before Jamals value drops. But he's a fool. In one paper today Goodwin said it turns out Moochie/Deke wasn't one of the obstacles, but he didn't know it. This guy is a moron. The GMs are fine.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*I think it's OK...*

I am quite comfortable with IT's non-signings. It appeared that we were off on another spending spree for too many years. I'm OK with the Knicks struggling for a year or two (if that happens) so that we can really get some players we need down the road.

Rather than overpay for unproven commodities, I would rather play the season with who we have. Lets keep being smart and in a couple of years the KNicks will be back on top. Pay back certainly can be a *****h.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Oak,at this point I have no clue as to what was initially satisfactory and what IT is thinking.Zeke has something up his sleeve,I just do not know what he is planning to do with Zeke.He must have some sort of deal lined up.No rational GM could expect anyone to take Shandone and Moochie....


Alfa,I actually agree with you on the signings,especially when it comes to Damp....JC is young enough and talented enough to sign longer term..Nice to see you acquired some wisdom over the summer:grinning:


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> Hey Bullet, I appreciate your explanations. Sometimes it's tough being a Knicks fan too. I can't tell you how many times we get some pissed off Raptors fan, or other non-playoff team, coming in here telling us our team sucks. Like we're asking.... and/or need to be told...


I believe U do - and I certainly did not wanna be one of those pissed fans coming at U (but I did turn out being one and I appologize to posters,not to Zeke) - I think Zeke will make it even tougher on U knicks fans

I've been a frustrated Bulls fan in the last 6 years seeing Krause ripping our team time after time.
At least I believe Pax has a direction and we have a very long way to go - we might be a good team in 3 years.
If Zeke can get Dampier it will be nice for U but with loss of KT U still won't be able to compete with the Pistons/Pacers/Heats of the east...

Personally (and thats really only my opinion and I'd be glad to hear NY fans opinions) I think Zeke is not doing a good job.
Yes - he's doing things unlike last management) but he's trading away too much future for too little present imo.
Stephan is a good player - but he won't take U alone to the promised land (like with Suns ).He's no IT as a player.

Truth - Pax said cap relief , and the only way it happens along with us taking Anderson the only way we get relief (and Mikedc from our board had a deep analysis of that showing it is onlt temporary relief cause of Shandons contract - I think I saw your name on these threads) is really by taking All your expirers - no other way.
Now that Zeke is offering KT and Othella for Damp I don't see it happening.Bad thing about this for NY is I think they will need Jamal Badly cause noone knows how much AH has got left in him.I guess Penny can play the 2 but is that a serious selution for a full season , he's not the healthiest guy himself,and not too consistent.

PS - oak - the sides did not agree cause Zeke did not want it , but Pax ,when approached by IT , put an offer he said was acceptable on him , the one U wrote down , and I do not think it is good enough for us.Since then IT has been trying to go around Paxsons demannds in 500 different insulting ways (the cause of my stupid childish anger) - thats why the deal did not go through (and as U know I'm happy with that)
I'm not a Jamal Fan but I do believe our best course is signing him and trading in future(not in byc status) , or maybe with a 3rd team involved
BTW - I remember reading when Jamal talks only started Pax gave IT a list of players he was interested in (from different teams) to try a 3 way - I guess that did not work as well.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bullet</b>!
> 
> 
> I believe U do - and I certainly did not wanna be one of those pissed fans coming at U (but I did turn out being one and I appologize to posters,not to Zeke) - I think Zeke will make it even tougher on U knicks fans


I just think there is way too much emotionalism by fans in this trade. There are plenty of other negotiations going on out there there are not being published, equally "insulting", but nobody knows or cares.

Now as you state, Paxson has made his demands, and we all seem to at least conceptually respect that and them. However, Isiah has a condition too: that he is allowed to keep one of his expiring contracts for another trade elsewhere. Why are Paxson's "demand" respected but Isiah's "condition" is insulting? It's the same old thing for Isiah, the man is the most....I don't know, whatever is the opposite of "teflon"... man that I know. The rhetoric around this little impasse is funny. I hear people saying Isiah is trying to back Pax into a corner, it's a game of chicken, NY fans think they're gonna get all-stars for their junk, and on and on.

It's just negotiations over a player that neither team desperately needs. They both want him under certain conditions and if those conditions aren't meant they walk. Meanwhile they keep working with their cap gurus to find a compromise. Why all the drama from the fans? It's certainly looking like Paxson is sticking to his guns and it will go exactly as you want tit too, so you can relax.

One other thing. Pax's main demand is cap relief, but it's not all he wants from us, lets just be clear on that. We wants a veteran 2/3 in the mix to backup your rookies, and Shandon has a great work ethic. He had that league's longest consecutive game streak going last year until Lenny did a coaches decision on him. Pax wants to have a guy like that so he can tell his rookies, look you guys are the future of this club but if you don't bring it every night I'll give Shandon the nod for effort alone. That's a vast upgrade over the situation with pouty Crawford and punk Erob, who can't play if he has a pimple.

Ditto Dekembe. Believe me you want this guy for more than cap relief. This guy could be a great mentor and example to your young bigs. He could be like Herb Williams was to our team: good backup, great leader, calming influence, facilitator between players and coach, possible future assistant coach. 

You all think Chicago's garbage is better than our because they run faster and jump higher but our garbage has work ethic and integrity and that is EXACTLY what Chicago needs from it's bench. Meanwhile E-Rob will be a perennial IR guy for us.

Even Moochie gives you some of that. It's one of the reasons Lenny was playing him over Frank. The guy is positive and energetic. Your backcourt is so young, you need a veteran in the mix. Moochie can come in and provide a great energy lift. And he hit some clutch threes for you guys. he's a lot better than Eisley. He's a perfectly capable backup PG. But most of all, a great guy and good influence and is always ready to play, or sit, as called upon.

Othella too. He desperately wants to be a Bull, which is always nice. Plus he never *****es and he brings it every night. He's not starter material but he's really not majorly flawed in any particular way. You wont miss JYD as much as you may think.

And if you get F-will you are getting a starting PG material player.Don't be surprised if he gives Hinrich a run for his money. If not you can definitely move him for other talent. 

Overall, it's pretty decent for garbage and as much as Pax talks about cap relief I wouldn't be at all surprised he actually re-signed some of these guys. And you guys love to remind all that Crawford is the best player in the deal. That's true, but E-rob is the worst, and guess who gets him.... 



> Personally (and thats really only my opinion and I'd be glad to hear NY fans opinions) I think Zeke is not doing a good job.
> Yes - he's doing things unlike last management) but he's trading away too much future for too little present imo.


It's too early to judge Isiah (IMO) but what you speak of is part of the conundrum of the Crawford deal. Isiah is working hard to maximize what he does with our present, as that is the mandate given to him by Dolan, yet gets criticized by both sides for it. 

I'm not necessary in favor of some of the contracts being rumored but is there any doubt that a lineup of:

Marbury
Crawford
TT
Nazr
Damp

is a vast upgrade over this time last year of:

Eisley
In surgery Houston
Spree/VH
Othella
Kurt Thomas

Whether or not that hypothetical team of the present (with JC and Damp) will be wise for us long term, it's clearly a team that can win it's division for automatic top 3 seed in the east, and it's a team that Miami, Indy and Detroit will seriously have to reckon with.

That's taking a lottery team to contender in less than one full season. What more can people expect from a guy?



> I'm not a Jamal Fan but I do believe our best course is signing him and trading in future(not in byc status) , or maybe with a 3rd team involved
> BTW - I remember reading when Jamal talks only started Pax gave IT a list of players he was interested in (from different teams) to try a 3 way - I guess that did not work as well.


See here's what's funny. You're not a Jamal fan, but you insist we make him our top priority this off-season or you'll be insulted...


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## SPIN DOCTOR (Oct 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> 
> 
> I just think there is way too much emotionalism by fans in this trade. There are plenty of other negotiations going on out there there are not being published, equally "insulting", but nobody knows or cares.
> ...


Oak - 5 Star Post!!!

From a Bulls Fan

I do have a difference in opinion regarding:
Moochie - I think he truly blows.
Erob - When he plays (no need to master the obvious here... I know), he is actually very solid, great mid-range j, good solid D, and is one of the best pure athletes in the L. Oak, that is what has really pissed Chicago fans off, all the talent but none of the heart. Chicago is not a good fit for the emotionally fragile, NEITHER is NY!

By the way... Jamal is still a little weak in his constitution, and a bit imature for my tastes. The very good news is he is only 23, so he still has time.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

apparently,this is the holdup on the trade

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/216784p-186554c.html

Zeke is offering KT and Harrington for Dampier.....

Looks like our first priority is Damp,otherwise Crawford would be a Knick by now...


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Wow , oak , it took me some time to read.



> Now as you state, Paxson has made his demands, and we all seem to at least conceptually respect that and them. However, Isiah has a condition too: that he is allowed to keep one of his expiring contracts for another trade elsewhere. Why are Paxson's "demand" respected but Isiah's "condition" is insulting?


actually the *one* demand Pax had and stated publicly is cap relief and the ONLY way Bulls get it is if NY trades ALL it's expirers.
the insulting part was when Zeke thought Pax was stupid and said he'll take Pip back - whats the point really when Pax is looking for relief to trade a hungup Jersey in BC for a different expirer , and he also insists on Moochie who is not an expirer.
there is also a big difference since Pax was approached by Zeke - when he wanted to know what Pax wanted he gave him an acceptable offer for him (but not me and most bulls fans at least by the board - not that it really matters what we think but still...) that was based purely on cap relief , not players , and Zeke is trying to go around it.why should Pax worry about Zeke demands when Pax would be just as fine not doing the trade.Pax did not fly to NY to negotiate , Zeke came to Chitown.IT can have all the demands he wants - if he won't give Pax the cap relief he wanted there is absolutly no reason for Pax to even sit and talk to Zeke.



> One other thing. Pax's main demand is cap relief, but it's not all he wants from us, lets just be clear on that. We wants a veteran 2/3 in the mix to backup your rookies, and Shandon has a great work ethic. He had that league's longest consecutive game streak going last year until Lenny did a coaches decision on him. Pax wants to have a guy like that so he can tell his rookies, look you guys are the future of this club but if you don't bring it every night I'll give Shandon the nod for effort alone. That's a vast upgrade over the situation with pouty Crawford and punk Erob, who can't play if he has a pimple.


Pax wants relief.believe me if NY had a different expirer than Deke he'd compramise on that.Shandon does have the work ethic and does fit Pax and Skiles style - but he is the worst cotract out there and although I don't like ERob cause of his attitude I think he's way more talented than Anderson.Shandon is almost by definition the "untradable contract" and yet Pax is actually doing NY a favour by taking him.



> See here's what's funny. You're not a Jamal fan, but you insist we make him our top priority this off-season or you'll be insulted...


The fact that I don't like Jamal does not take away the clear fact that he's by far the best player on the table.I don't like Stephan either - does that mean he has no value,after Zeke gutted so much future for him.and again , I was insulted by Zeke trying to go around the base of Pax demands , Pax wanted relief and NY can't give it without giving all expirers.the insult - taking Pip - common,whats the point.I was not insulted by Zeke's approaching , but by his offering to change the deal without really changing anything , as if Pax is stupid and won't notice that by giving Pip he won't get relief.

More than that , even with the deal Pax apparently agreed to we don't get any real relief , maybe temporary(MikeDC analysis in our board) because of SH terrible terrible contract.

Bottom line is I think our best rout is signing Jamal (wer'e not exactly in the position to giveup talent without getting relief at the minimum) and trade him when he's not BYC.the other option is atleast get a player that is closely talented as Jamal (Sweetney talks today).In a look to the future (since it's quite clear we won't be champs next season ) we should sign him for byc and trade him with ERob next year (when he's an expirer himself) and get much much better worth than what Zeke is offering.

And 2nd bottom line and most important,U gotta understand that this deal would never Happen *unless Bulls get relief!* 
nothing Zeke will do to go around that willmake this deal work , and thats why the name of the thread is Zeke don't raelly want Jamal.Thats just fine,we'd keep him.

Anyway,good debate and peace  !


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Yeah bullet, I hear ya on the Pip thing, it was lame. And I personally couldn't bear to see Pips horse face in a Knicks jersey anyway.  

But I also don't believe every thing we read. For instance you think Pax will only take all our expiring contracts but I don't believe that to be true. He also wants to dump Erob and JYD and we don't have enough expiring to match both them and Crawford. So then it might come down to not taking all our expiring but we also wont take both those players.

While I agree Pax would probably substitute one expiring contract for another, it also happens to be the case that the expiring guys are also quite useful even as players, and it just short changes us too much to let them all go in one deal for a mid-level player like Crawford.

All in all I still think a deal will get done. Those guys seem amicable enough and are still in contact. And it's clear Pax wants him out and Isiah wants him in. It'll probably be drawn out another 8 weeks until all other options are explored and expired. Until then we'll be tortured as the press has a field day at our expense.

Peace.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Oak - we meet both sides of the desert.good to see U get wet on Bulls board (not just browse)

Now U gotta seperate (sp - 2nd language ,sorry) JYD and ERob.

JYD is for the relief , although he has a bad contract he does have value for us and does fit the Skiles tough players mold.

ERob is for the riddence , simply cause he just does not seem to care about the team or hard work since Krause signed him to that terrible contract.

And yes - Pip is on the allstar of the ugly no doubt - they got a serious Center in the draft,Did U see how ugly that Kid Swift picked by Sonics is,makes Pip look like Mila Jogovic.but if that kid happens to read the board I'd say he looks quite talented and aggressive to me...

Now , hows that for an off topic , how did I get here , where am I , sorry


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## urwhatueati8god (May 27, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bullet</b>!
> Now U gotta seperate (sp - 2nd language ,sorry) JYD and ERob.


There's "a rat" in separate.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bullet</b>!
> Oak - we meet both sides of the desert.good to see U get wet on Bulls board (not just browse)
> 
> Now U gotta seperate (sp - 2nd language ,sorry) JYD and ERob.
> ...


I know what you're saying about the difference between these two, but I read recently that they both have issues with Skiles.

I haven't seen the new ugly guy yet. Guess I'm in no hurry.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

The hell's going here?


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