# Kobe Bryant



## LOL (Jul 12, 2002)

Just like Mike: After winning his third straight title, Kobe Bryant took off 10 days, then was right back in the gym, starting workouts with a personal trainer. Kobe's relentless drive reminds Magic Johnson of only one other player: Michael Jordan. 


This is why Kobe is the top guard in the league. I still think he's an arrogant ***** but this guy has a killer work ethic. Imagine if players like Iverson had this kinda drive.


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

Still comparing Kobe to Mike!:sour:


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Would you rather us compare Caron Butler to Mike? J/K


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

Their ISNT a baller in the league that deserves comparison to M.J.!:no:


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## Hotlantadude198 (Jul 12, 2002)

Kobe Bryant=MJ?
Tracy McGrady=Scottie Pippen?
Dan Dickau=John Stockton?
Mike Dunleavy=Larry Bird?

I wish people wouldn't do this.It's insane.Thank
good nobody is calling Iverson the next anybody.He
is just Ivy and not hte next MJ....

I remember when people starting calling Grant Hill
the next MJ.IT's nevr gunna happen.


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## LOL (Jul 12, 2002)

It wasn't suppose to be an Mj comparison, it was suppose to show how hard he works on his game. Thats the reason he's good. Imagine how good a lotta players would be if they worked this hard.


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## BballChickaDee (Jun 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by *LOL *
> It wasn't suppose to be an Mj comparison, it was suppose to show how hard he works on his game. Thats the reason he's good. Imagine how good a lotta players would be if they worked this hard.


:yes:. And about the whole MJ thing there won't be a "next" MJ 
*ever*. Each player has their own strengths and weaknesses and will give their own impact into the game of basketball. So Kobe isn't the next MJ he is just the first Kobe


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

I agree that Kobe is a great player. He is not on the level of Jordan though. not in competiveness or work ethic. Jordan was sick with food poisoning and dropped 38. Kobe got food poisoning and scored like 20. kobe is still a great player, but will never be as good as jordan.


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

> So Kobe isnt the next M.J. he is just the first Kobe.


Which AINT much unless u have a Shaq!

:laugh::laugh::laugh:


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## twolvefan11 (Jul 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by *HEATLUNATIC *
> 
> 
> Which AINT much unless u have a Shaq!
> ...


true, true


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Malakian *
> I agree that Kobe is a great player. He is not on the level of Jordan though. not in competiveness or work ethic. Jordan was sick with food poisoning and dropped 38. Kobe got food poisoning and scored like 20. kobe is still a great player, but will never be as good as jordan.


the true mark of a great player is how many points they score with food poisoning.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by *HEATLUNATIC *
> 
> 
> Which AINT much unless u have a Shaq!


too bad most associated with the game don't agree. the sporting news had a poll of gm's and personnel men in april to rate the top 50 players. kobe came in 2nd, behind shaq. players, coaches, front office people all seem to have a different view than you do. the laughing for effect doesn't give your opinion more weight. kobe's certainly a great player, with or without shaq.

btw, tell magic johnson to stop with the mj comparisons.


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

Kobe - Shaq = :laugh::laugh::laugh: 



> btw,tell Magic Johnson to stop with the M.J. comparisons


Magic just like Kobe = another Faker wanna-be M.J.!:yes:


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## SikHandlez24 (Jun 8, 2002)

Kobe Bryant has said he doesn't want to be another Michael Jordan and that he doesn't like the MJ comparisons. So what his game is like MJ's??? Who else to learn from than the master himself.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by *HEATLUNATIC *
> Kobe - Shaq =
> 
> Magic just like Kobe = another Faker wanna-be M.J.!


Heat=losing team :laugh: 

Caron Butler= is another bust 

:yes: 

How could Magic have wanted to be like MJ-if he was playing before MJ?


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## hOnDo (Jun 26, 2002)

I say that we compare Kobe to Kobe and MJ to MJ..they each have their own game and its unfair to both of them to compare them to each other. :yes:


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Wilt_The_Stilt *
> 
> 
> Heat=losing team :laugh:
> ...


lol, trash talk here? 

This is an old arugment. Kobe is a great player in this era. Jordan was the best player in his era.

Jordan or Shaq? Since they are both considered as the best player in their respective ERAs.

Jordan, Jordan can do what Kobe + Shaq can do.
Step up in all 4 quraters.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by *hOnDo *
> I say that we compare Kobe to Kobe and MJ to MJ..they each have their own game and its unfair to both of them to compare them to each other. :yes:


Unfair?
Kobe has weaknesses but Jordan didnt.
How was it unfair for Mj to compare Kobe?


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

jordan has a whole career to look back on to say he didn't have weaknesses. jordan wasn't a god his entire career. he wasn't unquestionably the best player in the game until his first championship season, 7 years in. kobe's a great player, at 24 putting together an impressive resume. jordan had the individual accomplishments early in his career. kobe has had the team success. that makes the comparisons difficult. jordan at 24 wasn't the jordan we look back at now. now we see the complete body of work. there was plenty of work to do as a 24 year old.


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## SikHandlez24 (Jun 8, 2002)

I agree nobody should be compared to Jordan because they aren't worthy. But the fact is Kobe is the closest thing we have to Mike. And it's comparing him to Mike nobody has said he is on the same level as Mike or is better than Mike.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Why do so many people hate whoever's compared to Jordan, face it and this is a very tiresome thread ,Kobe's great believe it or not he's great can't take it away from the kid because Talent +tireless work ethic = greatness ,and he has it ,Jordan himself doesn't mind the comparisons so why do so many people who feel they have to defend his honor trust me, Kobe won't tarnish the torch Michael's given to him, Jordan feats may never be duplicated but what if they were wouldn't detract from Jordan because he'll always remain a legend, believe it or not it maybe Kobe, could be Lebron James or some other Kid but there will be a better player than Jordan to come along face it it's sports someone greater always comes along. 


If Jordan had played with Shaq who would've been the first option ,a slashing,jump shooting guard,or a 300lb immovable force who dunks all day, Jordan would've played 2nd option to Shaq and made every clutch play at the end of games like Kobe does. And won titles just the same.


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## Babby (Jul 26, 2002)

*WOW*

Edited by Shadows. No need to start something because you dont agree. Post your reason why instead of insults. Any questions PM me. Thank You


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## twolvefan11 (Jul 21, 2002)

shut your ball washer, kobe is not an mj followup. mj is the best player ever, kobe will never be!


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

Kobe is good but not great. He would not win a championship without Shaq. xxxx<b><font color=blue>(edited out - no namecalling.TR, administrator)</b></font>Don't believe all those people that put Shaq and Kobe 1-2. they get payed to do that because they are a big market and have won championship. 


Players to take before Kobe:
Duncan 
Shaq
T-Mac
J kidd
Pierce
Iverson 
Carter


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## twolvefan11 (Jul 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Malakian *
> Kobe is good but not great. He would not win a championship without Shaq. Don't believe all those people that put Shaq and Kobe 1-2. they get payed to do that because they are a big market and have won championship.
> 
> 
> ...


what bout kg? 20-10-5, 20-10-5, 20-10-5, 3 straight years, no other nba player has done that! i would take him before kobe anyday!


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## hunterb14 (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by *LOL *
> Just like Mike: After winning his third straight title, Kobe Bryant took off 10 days, then was right back in the gym, starting workouts with a personal trainer. Kobe's relentless drive reminds Magic Johnson of only one other player: Michael Jordan.
> 
> 
> This is why Kobe is the top guard in the league. I still think he's an arrogant ***** but this guy has a killer work ethic. Imagine if players like Iverson had this kinda drive.


First off lets stop comparing people to MJ. There will never be another MJ or a player as talented as him. End of story.


Yes, Kobe has a killer work ethic that is why he IS the best 2 guard right now.

He is an example of why you work hard. He works hard to be the best now and he is certainly up there. His day to shine will come and he will but he will NEVER be as great as Jordan.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Only 2 players to take before Kobe and that Shaq and Duncan, Kobe comes next why wouldn't people say Shaq and Kobe aren't 1-2 in the league the proofs in the pudding 3 titles . Why would someone be forced to say that thats crazy it's obvious it's just Kobe hate when you put these players ahead of Kobe

Carter -game to incomplete to be real .
JKidd-great player can't shoot ,Kobe can do everything he can do but he can't do what Kobe can.
Iverson-Practice I mean we are talking Practice Man nuff said.
Pierce-Kobe does everyting he can do and he's a better athlete plus Kobe has better D Pierce is really special though.

Tmac -only person can be talked about in being ahead of Kobe but he messes up the end of games takes plays off great physical gifts equal to Kobe's but mental strength is Kobe's advantage.

See HORACE GRANT ON TMAC HE PLAYED WITH JORDAN,KOBE,AND TMAC AND HE SAYS AND I QUOTE "TMAC DOESN'T HAVE MICHAELS AND KOBE'S DAY IN AND DAY OUT FOCUS AND INTENSITY YET.Patrick Ewing in the same article said Tmac needs to bring it every night. check slam magazine for quotes, HORACE GRANT SHOULD KNOW HE'S THERE SEEN THE WORK ETHIC AND SAYS IT nuff said


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by *jazzy1 *
> 
> 
> 
> JKidd-great player can't shoot ,Kobe can do everything he can do but he can't do what Kobe can.



Actually I don't think Kobe has ever averaged 7 rebounds and 10 assists.



Horace was probably getting back at T-Mac for what T-Mac said in the playoffs, about him being better than Baron Davis, but Baron having the better team.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

Plus if T-Mac doesn't bring it every night, and Kobe does, then why does T-Mac average more points than Kobe? Plus he gets more rebounds and *can actually hit a three.*


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## buduan (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by *twolvefan11 *
> 
> what bout kg? 20-10-5, 20-10-5, 20-10-5, 3 straight years, no other nba player has done that! i would take him before kobe anyday!


That's why you guys are keyboard jockeys and not NBA GM's.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: Re: Kobe Bryant*



> Originally posted by *hunterb14 *
> 
> First off lets stop comparing people to MJ. There will never be another MJ or a player as talented as him. End of story.


mj was a human, not a god. he was the best, i think the best ever. but it's possible that someone will be better than him. there are guys who've been close already. he just had it all, and had the right circumstances, and he made the most of everything. he set the bar high. doesn't mean it can't be reached again.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Malakian *
> Plus if T-Mac doesn't bring it every night, and Kobe does, then why does T-Mac average more points than Kobe? Plus he gets more rebounds and *can actually hit a three.*


why don't you ask his teammate, who said it.

tmac averages more ppg than kobe in part because of the team he's on. i'm not sure what that says about bringing it every night though. plenty of big scorers didn't bring it every night. i'm not saying tmac doesn't, just that stats don't necessarily measure the full effort. hell, shaq doesn't bring it every night, and nobody puts up stats like him.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

until Kobe improves his jumper he is not a top 5 player!:devil:


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

If Kobe is NOT a top 5 player, I'll eat my straw hat.


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## beautifulkobe (Jun 24, 2002)

To teh rpson who said he never had 7 assists 10 rebounds blah blah.Well you are way off if you think kobe has never had a triple double.Hes had many.One that I remember was when he was playing without shaq against the wizards in febuary.

If anybody doesnt think kobe isnt a top 5 player they know nothing about basketball.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

get off your high horse...he cannot be a top 5 player until he proves he can win while he is the main guy. He is very close to 5 but he dropped to 6 in my book after an average season. He WAS a bricklayer from the perimeter last year...you cannot and should not deny that.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

jordan had huge hands and could palm the ball and built differently then kobe first off... they aren't that similar, other then excellent mid range game...

I'd personally rank kobe only behind shaq and duncan at this point...

Oh yeah, there will always be a more athletic player to come along, more then jordan... maybe not kobe, but someone else...

BTW Kobe's strength isn't his athletic ability, there are several players in the league RIGHT NOW MORE ATHLETIC THEN HIM, his strength is in what this first post partially stated, his dedication to the game and practicing. He's one of the hardest working players in the game, combined with w/ top 10 athletic ability that's what makes him tgreat. It's the 1000 + jump shots a day. He's cocky, but 99.9% of players are in NBA, only one I see that isn't but is a good player is Tim Ducan, everyone else is conceited...


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

I think he is living alot off shack...Games without shack were less than stellar. if he shoots 1,000 jumpers a day...he needs a new shooting teacher. someone please be impartial here, he is an average shooter.


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

I am not a Laker fan at all, but I can see where Kobe is one of the great players of today. 

To say that his entire game or even less than entire game is because of Shaq is ludicrous. He is a gifted athlete who wants to improve and does each year. I can place him in the top 5 or 6 of the NBA right now with ease.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

*He is not a very good shooter*

His shooting was worse ...why can't anyone acknowledge this? im not a kobe hater...i actually wish he would go somewhere else, it would help his game and make the league a whole lot more interesting to watch.


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## beautifulkobe (Jun 24, 2002)

Its funny how this thread turned onto another bash kobe thread.The person who started this thread just was showing how hard kobe works during the offseason.Gosh some people!


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## Hawkeye Pierce (Jul 15, 2002)

but kobe IS a good mid range shooter! when you take it out to the three point line he has troubles but mid range he IS money. 


personally i think kobe is top 5, shaq and duncan are 1 and 2 but then you can really just lump KG Tmac Kobe Kidd and maybe Pierce in any order down to number 7


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by *twolvefan11 *
> 
> what bout kg? 20-10-5, 20-10-5, 20-10-5, 3 straight years, no other nba player has done that! i would take him before kobe anyday!



oops forgot him


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

How the hell can you say I don't know anything about basketball if I don't hang on Kobe's jock mlike some people do? I know plenty about basketbal. I play it every day. I play for my high school team and average 18 points a game. I also know the stats. And I watch a lot of games.*T-Mac puts up better stats than Kobe.* Bottom line. There is no reason to say that Kobe is better yet. Just cause he won a championship with the best center in the league on his team. *T-Mac had Horace Grant playing center. Pat Garrity playing power forward.* T Mac had to do everything for his team. While Kobe just had to take over when Shaq was being lazy. Kobe has not proved anything other than that he is a top ten player and can put up good stats. He is a good player. But I rank T-Mac higher for what he has accomplished. I rank Carter higher because before he got hurt he also put up better stats than Kobe and can attack the rim better than anybody I have ever seen. I take Pierce because he put up better stats and led his team to the ECF. I take Jason Kidd because he is the best all around PG and led the *New Jersey Nets* to the Finals. If Kobe evr did that I would rank him ALOT higher. But if I was starting a franchise I would not pick Kobe because he has not proven he can lead a team. Once he leads his team I will give him a lot more love. But I just do not see it as the Laker fans do. Everryone is a homer, but Laker fans carry it too far.


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## SLiM9287 (Jul 2, 2002)

so wat u are trying to say is that stat prove how great a player is? so then because iverson averages more points a game he is better then shaq? and just because you play basketball doesnt mean u understand it. I know people that play everyday and dont know a thing about it meaning who is better than who. so what ure saying doesnt make sense to me


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

KBStAt I agree completely... stats don't mean everything... especially considering the triangle offence doesn't really have a primary distributor.... Athletic ability doesn't either, IE lots of guys are more athletic compared to larry bird, but does that make them better ball players....

A 40 year old jordan had wizards at 6th in east before injury, leading your team to playoffs in east isn't that impressive.

BTW kobe shoots a better Field Goal percentage then TMac, his 3 point shot isn't on target, but his game is mostly mid range to mid close range. Since when does 3- point shooting account for all shooting skill?  

Carter can attack rim well, but he doesn't do very often, unless he has wide open lane, he's a wimp. He usually ends up jacking up jump shots.

The only players you listed that should get real consideration is Pierce ,shaq, and duncan. Of the swingmen only pierce on the same mental level as Kobe and can get to the free throw line for easy points in the 4th quarter at will and isn't afraid to get hit, he's a smart player and doesn't get unforcused.

As for leading a team, he took the lakers about 50% winning percentage, which is pretty decent out west, and outside of shaq, look what the lakers have to work with, no one who can create their own shot, so he can lead a team pretty well. 

As for leading a team, you make it sound as if those other players did it themselves, well they didn't so please don't act like it  Everyone needs some support, and Kobe has 1 great support that helped him win 4 straight championships. No one is saying Kobe did it alone, but that doesn't take away from his basketball ability.

Last but not least, Kobe does not want to be compared to MJ. His goal is not to be like MJ, but to better or create a legacy of his own. He's cocky, but most NBA players are so I don't care. I'm personally happy he helped the Lakers win 4 rings these last few years, I'm a Laker fan more then a Kobe fan. I don't really like Kobe that much either, but he's still one of the best, most just don't like him because of MJ comparisons (and the fact they are attached to bulls from 90's growing up seeing him), and get angry. 

Well get used to it, because pretty soon you'll hear talk about Lebron being the best, and I guess those same kobe "haters" will start bashing him when Lebron starts getting attention and being praised. (FYI I'm indifferent to Lebron james, don't like him, don't hate him either since he probably won't be playing for lakers, only player I don't like is Karl Malone  but I won't get into that).


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

FYI I do not think Kobe is better then jordan, i won't decide until his career is over


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

Okay stats don't mean anything 


I'm not going to comment on whether or not you know basketball because I don't know you. 

Don't say that I don't know basketball because you don't know me.

when Shaq was not playing they were 7-8. And don't say that in the West that is alright because they lost to Chicago with no Shaq twice.


Let's look at there lineup with no Shaq:
PG:Fisher
SG:Bryant
SF:Fox
PF:Horry
C:Walker

Let's look at t-Mac's year round roster:
PG:Armstrong
SG:T-Mac
SF:Miller
PF:Garrity
C:Horace Grant

About even:yes: 
Lakers:7-8
Magic:44-38


Just something to think about. Also Kobe is gonna shgoot a higher percentage of course. T-Mac gets double and triple teamed every game, and almost evry play. Kobe always gets single coverage because they can't afford to double team Shaq and Kobe both and leave two people open. 

So let's think about it: T-Mac averages more points but shoots a lower percentage while being double and triple teamed just about every play.
Kobe shoots a higher percentage but scores less while getting single coverage or left open when his man goes to double Shaq.

Who do you take?


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## LOL (Jul 12, 2002)

How many people actually read the post where I said this was NOT supppose to be a Michael Jordan comparison.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

I didn't say anything about Jordan:no:


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## beautifulkobe (Jun 24, 2002)

Ya that was a wast of time writing that cause right when you mention kobes name people start bashing him and saying hes nothing like mj.

Its funny how you rank Vince higher then kobe just cause he doenst have Shaq.Vince is not a playmaker,iniator.creator like kobe.I remember when Kobe torched vince and the raptors when They came to toronto.I had to turn the game off it was so upsetting.

Vince ranked Kobe higher then Him and Mgrady when he was on the best dam sports Show.
His order was Shaq,kobe,AI,Mgrady and him.Hmm Vince does not agree with you.


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## DP (Jun 7, 2002)

Beautifulkobe if I were you I'd be glad Kobe gets so much ink even if some hate him. Everything about the guy is looked under the microscope and all the kid does is keep his nose clean, work hard and win. Just shows how good the guy is.

'Nuff said.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by *beautifulkobe *
> Ya that was a wast of time writing that cause right when you mention kobes name people start bashing him and saying hes nothing like mj.
> 
> Its funny how you rank Vince higher then kobe just cause he doenst have Shaq.Vince is not a playmaker,iniator.creator like kobe.I remember when Kobe torched vince and the raptors when They came to toronto.I had to turn the game off it was so upsetting.
> ...


That shows you how smart Vince is 

He left out Duncan. So I am going to disreguard that.

And plus you all jump on me *for my opinion.* just because I don't rank Kobe as high as you do. I never said he sucked or anything like that. I just said there are players I would take before him.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Malakian *
> Okay stats don't mean anything
> 
> 
> ...


It's funny how I post this and someone comments about Vince


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Malakian *
> Okay stats don't mean anything
> 
> 
> ...


Very good post and you make some valid points to support your opinion. Kobe & TMac are friends and they are also both 2 of the best players in the league, imho.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Malakian *
> Okay stats don't mean anything
> 
> 
> ...


Say what you want about the triangle offense-but the Lakers offense is geared towards Shaq. You can't deny it..and when he is out-it messes up the game plan because the rest of the team is so used to having him around and passing him the ball that nobody steps up or knows what to do when he is gone except for Kobe. So the Lakers end up losing.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

just some random points.

kobe scored 28.5 ppg in '01. was that kobe better than tmac (he scored more), and this kobe worse, because now tmac scored a bit more?

tmac scored more in '01 than he did in '02. did he get worse?

shaq played 10 min's in another game and la won (they were losing when shaq was ejected, and went on to beat seattle by 15). 

it's a tough adjustment to lose a great player (tougher when his replacement isn't very good). it's different than playing the whole season without that player. the magic went 6-9 their first 15 games after grant hill got hurt (they were 13-17 at one point - that's 30 games in - and then slowly figured out how to play with the players they had and turned it around). the raptors struggled when carter got hurt, and later won 9 straight without him. shaq's 15 games weren't consecutive, making it more difficult to find a groove. la did go 5-3 without shaq in '01 (again, kobe must have been much better in '01 i guess).

many, many players have scored 25+ ppg as a first option (actually, most of them have been first options - some weren't that great). many managed to shoot a high percentage. far less have done it playing with another big scorer. why does tmac then deserve so much extra credit then than kobe?

why would kobe leading his team to the first round (or deeper in the east), which again has been done many, many times, by some not so great players, then prove that kobe's great? hell, the magic played .500 ball 2 years ago with darrell armstrong and ron mercer as their first options. does that mean they've proven they can carry a team? kobe has huge production for a great team, yet he can prove more by having huge production on a mediocre/decent team? i don't get it. 

people are entitled to their opinion that they prefer tmac over kobe. there are legitimate arguments in his favor. i just don't always understand the reasons given here.


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## Psubs (Jul 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by *beautifulkobe *
> 
> Its funny how you rank Vince higher then kobe just cause he doenst have Shaq.Vince is not a playmaker,iniator.creator like kobe.I remember when Kobe torched vince and the raptors when They came to toronto.I had to turn the game off it was so upsetting.
> 
> ...



I guess you missed the game where the Raptors went into LA and won.
As for Vince ranking himself the 5th best player, that is how he was playing at the time. That is why I like Carter, he's no arrogant sob. If Kobe were to do that it would show a little modesty, that Kobe fans are not about.

Kobe sucks!  

Watch next year when Vince lights up the league for trash talking his game.


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## Psubs (Jul 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by *buduan *
> 
> 
> That's why you guys are keyboard jockeys and not NBA GM's.



Hey buduan, are there others, that split time?
Check out my avatar! Kobe can't do that.:grinning: 
I've been hanging out on the Raptor board and Everything But Basketball. I'm trying to cut down my time here and I should on the other board and get some work done. Later.

Kobe hater forever! (or until he becomes a Raptor  )


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

"So let's think about it: T-Mac averages more points but shoots a lower percentage while being double and triple teamed just about every play.
Kobe shoots a higher percentage but scores less while getting single coverage or left open when his man goes to double Shaq."

If he's triple teamed he should consider passing more, his team has good jump shooters. 

As for numbers being higher, Stackhouse scored more then Tmac last year, guess he's a better player by your logic  


look at kobe's stats when shaq's not around, I guess he's better then mcgrady suddenly when shaq isn't playing because his stats are a little higher


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

when I say last year I meant the season the lakers won their 2nd title, not this recent one  

did I say number don't mean anything? I'm saying scoring 1 or 2 more points more doesn't make you better, especially when your FG % is worse.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

Malakian I'm surprised at you,you know Ball we've argued before but you talk about Kobe not getting 7 rebs and 10 assists,if he couldn't score you don't think he could just concentrate on rebs and assists, all he needs is 2 more rebs and 5 more assists to reach that anyway take away some of his shot attempts and he'd get that easily, You can like Kobe or not like him but to suggest his not a top 5 player discounts your argument because that says that you're biased and refuse to see the obvious. The Laker record without Shaq is about what the Magic record is anyway hovering right around .500 , Remember when GRANT HILL PLAYED FOR PART OF THE YEAR TMACS NUMBERS WERE DOWN HAVING TO SHARE THE BALL NOW IF HILL COMES BACK AT FULL STRENGTH TMACS NUMBERS MAY GO DOWN AGAIN BUT THAT DOESN'T NECCESSARILY MEAN THAT KOBE'S BETTER BECAUSE OF THAT,



Kobe is better why and this is strictly a basketball observation, He's more creative in creating his own shot,Tmac uses more first step and post ups Kobe uses more crosss overs and spin dribbles, so in the clutch part of games Kobe is alittle harder for a defender to guard because of the variety of ways he can break you down, Tmac at the end of games because he has to blow by you not really utilizing the crooss over dribble ,defenses can anticipate where he's going and either cut him off or anticipate where the shots coiming from saw it 3 times last year against the HORNETS BARON DAVIS ANTICIPATED HIS DRIVE AND STRIPPED HIM ,AGAINST THE NETS KMART ANTICIPATED HIS DRIVE AND BLOCKED HIS SHOT, AND AGAINST THE WIZ THEY DOUBLED HIS POST UP FORCING AN ERRANT PASS. 

NOW KOBE AGAINST THE SAME HORNETS IN THE REGULAR SEASON HIT A BUZZER WINNER BY POST UP KEEPING HIS DRIBBLE AND SHOOTING OVER LYNCH you see the defense could not anticpate where he was going with the ball terefore limiting there ability to stop him. Now SHAQ does factor in all this because he's on the floor and defenses have to watch him but against the PACERS IN THE FINALS NO LESS ON THE BIGGEST STAGE WHEN SHAQ FOULED OUT KOBE CAME THROUGH BY HIMSELF .


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## beautifulkobe (Jun 24, 2002)

To psurbs or whatever the hell your name is.When the raptors won against the lakers kobe and Shaq were both out.I remember seeing kobe sitting in street clothes.


Anyways when mgrady was with the raptors he was second option to Vince.He scored a lot less then kobe did with Shaq.Mgrady would never beable to supplement his game for Shaq or anyone.Never hes to selfish.He left the raptors cause he hated being second option. Now grant hill is coming back and we'll see how he fares.


Mgrady is a second option like kobe.But noone even mentions that.


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## *NSYNC (Aug 1, 2002)

It has been proven that Shaq makes players look better than they actually are. Remember a guy named "Penny" Hardaway? Remember how he was the "next Magic" after his first few season in the league? Remember how his skill level was nearly hyped up as high as Kobes are now? Look what happened to him after Shaq left, sure he's still a good player, but now he's being called the "next George McCloud", there's no reason to believe the same thing won't happen to Kobe once he's seperated from Shaq.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by **NSYNC *
> It has been proven that Shaq makes players look better than they actually are. Remember a guy named "Penny" Hardaway? Remember how he was the "next Magic" after his first few season in the league? Remember how his skill level was nearly hyped up as high as Kobes are now? Look what happened to him after Shaq left, sure he's still a good player, but now he's being called the "next George McCloud", there's no reason to believe the same thing won't happen to Kobe once he's seperated from Shaq.


i don't know how many times i need to repeat this. penny averaged 25.5 ppg in 28 games without shaq in '96 while shaq was out with an injury (far more than the 21 ppg he averaged for the season). the following season, with shaq in la, he got injured in the first half of the season and has never been fully healthy again. he did manage to score 30 ppg in the first round after leading his team to the playoffs that year though.

and kobe's just a better player than penny was. with far more heart, drive and determination.


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

One point I do have to offer in support of Penny is this:

It is hard to keep having heart and determination when one has to fight through injuries year after year. Walton talked about how hard that aspect of his game was in an interview.

Heart is a hard thing to measure when one is beset by injury after injury. 

Rehab is heart & determination - in its own way.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

i don't take into consideration anything from penny for the last 4 years. my comment was based on what i saw from him through '97.

i do believe penny gets slammed more than necessary. i do think though that kobe has him beat in the mental department, even at penny's peak.


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

I agree with you, kflo. 

Kobe is better than Penny was before Penny was injured. But I just wanted to give Penny some props for the determination to fight through injury-laden seasons.


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

*Jazzy1*

Buetiful post
Kobe is the better player.
Anybody who disagrees just doesn't like the lakers cause they keep winning


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

*Re: Jazzy1*



> Originally posted by *shobe42 *
> Buetiful post
> Kobe is the better player.
> Anybody who disagrees just doesn't like the lakers cause they keep winning



This will never be settled because the Laker fans will continue to say Kobe is better and everyone else will say T-Mac is better.

T-Mac was not polished and was still developing while he was in Toronto. He hated living in Canada and he didn't want to be in Vince's shadow because he knew he was better than Vince. As we see now.

Say hypothetically if Kobe was traded straight up for T-Mac. Who would get the better deal? The Lakers would still win the championship. but I have a feeling the Magic would not make the playoffs.


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## hunterb14 (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by *TheRifleman *
> If Kobe is NOT a top 5 player, I'll eat my straw hat.


You have a straw hat?


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

I had one but, my chicken crapped on top of it.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

*Re: Re: Jazzy1*



> Originally posted by *Malakian *
> 
> This will never be settled because the Laker fans will continue to say Kobe is better and everyone else will say T-Mac is better.


nice try. 




> Originally posted by *Malakian *
> T-Mac was not polished and was still developing while he was in Toronto. He hated living in Canada and he didn't want to be in Vince's shadow because he knew he was better than Vince. As we see now.


in 1 year, tmac went from 15.4 to 26.8 ppg. he didn't just develop. his circumstances changed, and he was the main man in orlando. it was difficult to shine alongside another star. and it's likely his numbers would have been significantly lower if he stayed teammed with vince. it is likely though, that he'd be on a better team.




> Originally posted by *Malakian *
> 
> Say hypothetically if Kobe was traded straight up for T-Mac. Who would get the better deal? The Lakers would still win the championship. but I have a feeling the Magic would not make the playoffs.


it's obvious you feel that way because you think tmac's better. if you think kobe's better, you'd probably feel differently.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by *kflo *
> 
> 
> i don't know how many times i need to repeat this. penny averaged 25.5 ppg in 28 games without shaq in '96 while shaq was out with an injury (far more than the 21 ppg he averaged for the season). the following season, with shaq in la, he got injured in the first half of the season and has never been fully healthy again. he did manage to score 30 ppg in the first round after leading his team to the playoffs that year though.
> ...


I agree Kobe is a better player by a bit. But Penny managed to score his 25 points along with the 20-8 record without Shaq. Now, I am not saying Kobe wont do it. But without Shaq, LA were just a 500 team with Kobe leading the way.

I do agree Kobe is a better individual basketball player, but Penny at the age of 23 was a mucn better leader and creator than Kobe is now. Penny knows how to use his teammates better, Penny in his prime would had score 28-29 a night but he always let teh srcubs to get theirs when they are ON. That's why his 25.5 point per game was so effective. 20-8 leading by a guard in his second year in the league was so amazing if you ask me.

Individual basketball player? Kobe. I am with you is better.
But a team leader that able to run the offense? Penny at the age of 23. It was Penny ran his team to the finals. But it was Brian Hill the headcoach often use Shaw at the end of games to handle the ball instead of Penny, at least in game 1 of the nba finals.

Anyway, Penny in his prime was a great player.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by *John *
> 
> 
> I agree Kobe is a better player by a bit. But Penny managed to score his 25 points along with the 20-8(I think so) record without Shaq. Now, I am not saying Kobe wont do it. But without Shaq, LA were just a 500 team with Kobe leading the way.
> ...


20-8(I want to mention the fact that I was pretty sure Penny only loss 8 games with Shaq being out) If shaq was out for 28 games, then Penny lead the team to 20-8.


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## Sir I Gotta Go (Jul 7, 2002)

Tracy McGrady does everything for his team. Kobe Bryant just follows Shaq. Who do you think the leader is for the Lakers? Well, lets put it this way, when the leader was out with injury the team was 7-8. Kobe could not do all the things he does with Horace Grant and Pat Garrity in the front court. Kobe could not carry the sorry Magic team. That should be a lottery team but T-Mac somehow gets them into the playoffs each year. i'm serious, if you take T-Mac off of that team they are worse than the Memphis Grizzlies.

and when I made the comment about 7 rebounds and 10 assists I was replying to someone who said Kobe could do everything Jason Kidd does but Jason Kidd couldn't do anything that Kobe can.

Kobe is a good player _but there are players better than him_ 





P.S. Kobe could not hold Jordans jock


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

why don't you address the points i made on the previous page? mcgrady was 6-9 the first 15 games after g. hill went out. the magic were actually 13-17 the first 30 games of the season. did that mean mcgrady couldn't carry the magic? kobe had 15 games without shaq (again, 16 if you count the game la won when shaq was ejected), and they weren't consecutive. it makes it difficult to judge. and if mcgrady was on the lakers, would he just follow shaq? would he deserve any credit for his teams accomplishments? or would shaq swallow all that up, and mcgrady would be left having proven nothing?


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by *kflo *
> why don't you address the points i made on the previous page? mcgrady was 6-9 the first 15 games after g. hill went out. the magic were actually 13-17 the first 30 games of the season. did that mean mcgrady couldn't carry the magic? kobe had 15 games without shaq (again, 16 if you count the game la won when shaq was ejected), and they weren't consecutive. it makes it difficult to judge. and if mcgrady was on the lakers, would he just follow shaq? would he deserve any credit for his teams accomplishments? or would shaq swallow all that up, and mcgrady would be left having proven nothing?


I see what you are saying. And I agree to some extent as well. But I dont look at numbers if u ask me. I look at how the offense go when Shaq isnt in the game. Kobe at this point is a great finisher, a finisher that able to win a championship for any given team. I dont deny not many can do better than he does, maybe Vince Carter as guard position. But Kobe is proven he can be a finisher for a championship team that counts the most.

But as a creator, or a team leader? Not at this stage of his career maybe when he is in his prime.


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