# My 2005 Celtics Rebuilding Plan



## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

I also posted this on the "trades" forum.

It is clear following last night's humiliating playoff loss that the Celtics will never be a legitimate contender with Pierce and Walker. Here's my 2005 Celtics rebuilding plan:

1. Let Walker go to free agency

2. Let Payton go to free agency.

3. Trade Pierce and draft pick #53 to Portland for Nick Van Exel and draft pick #35. This would have to be a draft day trade.

4. With Pick #18 select Joey Graham of Oklahoma State
With Pick #35 select Stephano Mancinelli of Climamio Bologna
With pick #50 select Marcelo Huertas of DKV Joventut

5. Decline the team option on VanExel, which leaves the Celtics payroll for 2005-2006 at roughly 32.5 million, or about 12.5 million below the cap.

6. Trade Mark Blount to the Knicks for Malik Rose.

7. Present a 10+ million-dollar offer sheet to restricted free agent Tyson Chandler. If the Bulls match, present a similar offer sheet to Samuel Dalembert. If Philly also matches go after Larry Hughes and try to get Dan Gadzuric using the Celtics' MLE.

8. Use the Celtics' MLE to acquire Donyell Marshall. They could also split it between Brevin Knight and Adrian Griffin.

If all goes as planned, Celtics roster on the first day of training camp would be:

C: Chandler/LaFrentz/Perkins
PF: Jefferson/Rose
SF: Marshall/Graham/Reed/Mancinelli
SG: Davis/Allen
PG: West/Banks/Huertas

This is probably a 43-45 win team next year, but a 50+ win team in 2006-07, assuming that Jefferson and West continue to develop and Ricky Davis matures into a true "go to" scorer, which I think he can become. This is a youngish but very balanced group. It has rebounding (Chandler, Jefferson, Perkins and Rose), scoring (Davis, Jefferson, Marshall and West), interior defense (Chandler, Perkins), shotblocking (Chandler, LaFrentz) and perimeter defense (Reed, Graham, Allen and Banks). It also has plenty of speed and athleticism to play an up tempo offense and to play defense for the full 94 feet. There are no ballhogs or prima donnas (with the possible exception of Banks).

Comments welcome.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

1. Even though I would like to sign Antoine Walker to a two year, thirteen million dollar contract, I won't comment on this for the sake of argument. Let's assume that we let Walker go into free agency.

3. I believe Pierce's trade value is much higher than that. In my opinion, we could atleast get the #5 selection in this years draft, along with Nick Van Exel's expiring contarct. We certainly could get Sergei Monia's rights. If we really wanted to dump Pierce's salary, I would look towards New York and either Penny Hardaway or Tim Thomas, saving us _a lot_ of money.

4. I really cannot decide between Joey Graham and Danny Granger. Both have their positives. Graham is the more athletic of the two, while Granger is the more complete player with a better shot. They are both excellent defenders, but Granger is smarter at defense while Graham relies more on his athleticisim. I cannot really comment about the other two prospects you mentioned seeing as I have never seen either play, but I'll trust your ability as a scout even though I'm against drafting *another *small forward like Mancinelli.

6. I was exploring this trade earlier in the day along with a trade involving Mark Blount and Jermaine Williams. Seeing as though Rose's contract is four years long, I wouldn't trade for him. For a salary dump, the most intriguing possibility, in my opinion, is Raef Lafrentz and Delonte West for Clarence Weatherspoon and David Welsey, both expiring contracts saving us approximately 37.17M.

7. I do not like anyone of those restricted free agent offer sheets, but I won't go into my issues with them. The Dan Gadzuric signing would be nice, though.


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Even though I'm against trading Pierce if we resign Antoine, I posted an interesting trade proposal in the Free Agents, Trades, and Rumors forum:



> Lorenzen Wright and James Posey for Paul Pierce works under the current Collective Bargaining Agreement, but I do see how the Celtics' would be reluctant to trade for another center, even though Wright is expiring. To include Blount, a realistic deal would have to be done after July 15





> th or so. Posey's perimeter defense, combined with that of Marcus Banks, Tony Allen, Ricky Davis, and hopefully Joey Graham or Danny Granger, would make the Celtics' unstoppable in terms of exterior defense.




Obviously, some work would need to be done to level out the deal for both sides, but I think that proposal could work as Posey is on the verge of a breakout season. Essentialy, we would be trading a star for a another star and a good roleplayer.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

Premier said:


> 3. I believe Pierce's trade value is much higher than that. In my opinion, we could atleast get the #5 selection in this years draft, along with Nick Van Exel's expiring contarct. We certainly could get Sergei Monia's rights. If we really wanted to dump Pierce's salary, I would look towards New York and either Penny Hardaway or Tim Thomas, saving us _a lot_ of money.
> 
> ... I cannot really comment about the other two prospects you mentioned seeing as I have never seen either play, but I'll trust your ability as a scout even though I'm against drafting *another *small forward like Mancinelli.
> 
> 6. I was exploring this trade earlier in the day along with a trade involving Mark Blount and Jermaine Williams. Seeing as though Rose's contract is four years long, I wouldn't trade for him. For a salary dump, the most intriguing possibility, in my opinion, is Raef Lafrentz and Delonte West for Clarence Weatherspoon and David Welsey, both expiring contracts saving us approximately 37.17M.


Re Item 3 above: I don't think that Pierce's trade value is higher than that after games 6 and 7 of the Indiana series. The reason why Van Exel is better is because the money comes off the cap THIS JUNE, not in two years. The Celtics would acquire him on draft day and decline the team option as soon as the quiet period ends. If you can't get Van Exel, I would prefer to deal Pierce to Dallas for KVH than to acquire TT or Hardaway.

Re: Mancinelli. My Slovenian friends tell me he he is very athletic and underrated. He's 22 years old. He would be a much higher pick if he were 19.

Re Item number 6: I think you meant Jerome Williams. But his contract is only a year shorter than Rose's contract, and Rose is a better offensive player. As for your other deal, I would NEVER include West. West is going to be a 10 year pro and will be a starting pg, if not in Boston then somehwere else. If they want to take LaFrentz and a secound round pick for Weatherspoon and Wesley, that's ok. 

You can argue about what to do with that 11.5 mil in cap space, but there sure are some interesting possibilities. My first choice is to go after rebounding and interior defense, because you've got Jefferson as your low post offensive threat. But if you want a scorer there are plenty of them, e.g. Redd, Ray Allen and Hughes There are also guys like Stromile Swift, Bobby Jackson (if you don't think West and Banks can do the job at the point), Bobby Simmons, Donyell Marshall, etc. etc.


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

That lineup gives me a headache thinking about it. What an ugly team.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

Lanteri said:


> That lineup gives me a headache thinking about it. What an ugly team.


LaFrentz
Walker
Pierce
West
Payton

That's the lineup that gives me a headache. Soft on the boards, bad interior defense and two ballhogs who hijack the team's offense and slow it to a crawl.

If I wanted to see players dribble....and dribble... and dribble... and dribble...I'd rent a copy of "Sweet Georgia Brown" and watch Marcus Haynes.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Your plan does not work under the CBA. Teams only get the MLE when they are over the cap or under by less than the value of the MLE. That is calculated at the start of free agency, which is after the draft.

Additonally, there are a great many who will murder Ainge if he deals Pierce to move up 18 spots in the second round.


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## aquaitious (Jun 11, 2002)

This is a very deep team, why get rid of it totally?

As I've said in a few other threads, there's a couple of moves that may need to be done (Getting rid of Blount, maybe even Raef's contract) but a total rebuild is totally unaccaptable right now.

We certainly cannot afford adding another 3/4 rookies and getting rid of our experianced players.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Big John said:


> LaFrentz
> Walker
> Pierce
> West
> ...



thats a lineup that finished the regular season 18-7(ish) and took us to a game 7 in the first round...give them a full training camp and full season and thats a lineup that can take us much farther than the first round


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Big John said:


> I also posted this on the "trades" forum.
> 
> 3. Trade Pierce and draft pick #53 to Portland for Nick Van Exel and draft pick #35. This would have to be a draft day trade.


If you think that the best the Celtics can get for Pierce is an expiring deal and an _exchange_ of second round picks, you're insane. I mean, wtf, do you really believe that the Celtics would have to sweeten the pot to get the 35th pick in the draft if they were offering Pierce for a second rounder? Is Nash going to say to Ainge, "Well, Danny, I'd like to give you the 35th pick in exchange for Pierce, but LA just offered me Kobe and Butler, and Cleveland is offering LeBron, you're going to have to do better than that."



Big John said:


> C: Chandler/LaFrentz/Perkins
> PF: Jefferson/Rose
> SF: Marshall/Graham/Reed/Mancinelli
> SG: Davis/Allen
> ...


Not only does that lineup not win 43-45 games, I'd be stunned if it won 30. The only way that roster produces 50+ wins in 2006-07 is if you count the victories from 05-06 in their total. Who the **** is going to score in that lineup? That team would have to hold opponents to 60pts or less to have a chance at winning. A _chance_. Like all Sutton coached wings Graham can't stick a jumper to save his life. Great at driving the rim, but put him 20' from the Atlantic ocean and tell him to get the ball wet and he'll get nothing but sand. Delonte West can't even beat himself off the dribble, much less actual NBA 1s. Ricky has already proven to be a disaster as a first, last, & only option, why go back to it? Donyell Marshall has shown that his best position is sixth man/ 3rd-4th option, here he'd be the second. If teams concentrate on stopping him, he's useless. He's a shorter, more athletic Raef. Jefferson can't pass out of a double team to save his life, and in that lineup he'll be tripled every time he touches the ball. I mean, if your goal is to put together a team so bad that you'll have a shot at Oden, that's one thing, but given the hardon Stern has for the Celtics, why even bother? They had a 45% chance of landing one of the first two picks in the Duncan lottery, where did they draft again?

If you say a bad word, the system will mask it out automatically, no need to go around it.  -aqua


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

agoo101284 said:


> Your plan does not work under the CBA. Teams only get the MLE when they are over the cap or under by less than the value of the MLE. That is calculated at the start of free agency, which is after the draft.
> 
> Additonally, there are a great many who will murder Ainge if he deals Pierce to move up 18 spots in the second round.


Well that's true. They might have to renounce the MLE to make an offer to Chandler or Dalembert that is large enough. But 12 million under means 12 million to spend on FAs, and you can divide it up any way you like. They also have at least one trade exception (1.4 mil. for McCarty) that could be used to increase that to 13.4 mil, depending on the timing and structure of the deals and signings in question. And of course no one knows what the new CBA will look like, although from published reports the cap and the luxury tax will be retained (although the luxury tax escrow may disappear).


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

ehmunro said:


> If you think that the best the Celtics can get for Pierce is an expiring deal and an _exchange_ of second round picks, you're insane. I mean, wtf, do you really believe that the Celtics would have to sweeten the pot to get the 35th pick in the draft if they were offering Pierce for a second rounder? Is Nash going to say to Ainge, "Well, Danny, I'd like to give you the 35th pick in exchange for Pierce, but LA just offered me Kobe and Butler, and Cleveland is offering LeBron, you're going to have to do better than that."
> 
> 
> 
> Not only does that lineup not win 43-45 games, I'd be stunned if it won 30. The only way that roster produces 50+ wins in 2006-07 is if you count the victories from 05-06 in their total. Who the **** is going to score in that lineup? That team would have to hold opponents to 60pts or less to have a chance at winning. A _chance_. Like all Sutton coached wings Graham can't stick a jumper to save his life. Great at driving the rim, but put him 20' from the Atlantic ocean and tell him to get the ball wet and he'll get nothing but sand. Delonte West can't even beat himself off the dribble, much less actual NBA 1s. Ricky has already proven to be a disaster as a first, last, & only option, why go back to it? Donyell Marshall has shown that his best position is sixth man/ 3rd-4th option, here he'd be the second. If teams concentrate on stopping him, he's useless. He's a shorter, more athletic Raef. Jefferson can't pass out of a double team to save his life, and in that lineup he'll be tripled every time he touches the ball. I mean, if your goal is to put together a team so bad that you'll have a shot at Oden, that's one thing, but given the hardon Stern has for the Celtics, why even bother? They had a 45% chance of landing one of the first two picks in the Duncan lottery, where did they draft again?


That team would win more games than the Celtics will next year if they stand pat. I like guys who shoot a high percentage (and plenty of layups) not volume shooters like Pierce and Walker.

Quote edit. -aqua


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

#1AntoineWalkerFan said:


> thats a lineup that finished the regular season 18-7(ish) and took us to a game 7 in the first round...give them a full training camp and full season and thats a lineup that can take us much farther than the first round


That lineup will take them nowhere. They could have 10 training camps. Too slow, too much dribbling, not enough defense, soft bigs. As for Pierce, Jackie McMullen said it all: he just doesn't get it.

Meahwhile, teams like Chicago and Washington will be improving at a rapid rate, while the Celtics continue their attempt to relive 2002.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Premier said:


> I cannot really comment about the other two prospects you mentioned seeing as I have never seen either play, but I'll trust your ability as a scout even though I'm against drafting *another *small forward like Mancinelli.


I'd not waste that much faith on his scouting ability. He seems to think that West is a future all star. I tend to think that he's hugely overrated at the moment due to his lack of burn. The weaknesses I saw in summer league & training camp are still there, and I just don't see where West is going to find a first step. He can work further on his handle and his right hand, but he still can't break a defender down off the dribble and has trouble creating shots (which is mandatory for a 1 in a fast break offense). If he could develop a handle and a right hand he'd be a good fit for a team that ran the triangle, but the Celtics aren't running the tri, they don't have the personnel for it. So I'm down with your proposed Houston deal, it would put them in great cap position the next two offseasons (especially if they could get rid of Blount).


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Big John said:


> Well that's true. They might have to renounce the MLE to make an offer to Chandler or Dalembert that is large enough. But 12 million under means 12 million to spend on FAs, and you can divide it up any way you like. They also have at least one trade exception (1.4 mil. for McCarty) that could be used to increase that to 13.4 mil, depending on the timing and structure of the deals and signings in question.


The Mid Level Exception is only available to teams _over the cap_. If you're under the cap you don't get the MLE. It really is that simple.



Big John said:


> That team would win more games than the Celtics will next year if they stand pat. I like guys who shoot a high percentage (and plenty of layups) not volume shooters like Pierce and Walker.


A team full of guys that can only score if they're left wide open won't score at all. Just witness the Indiana series, in game 1 Raef got open looks all night long and tortured Indiana. Indiana adjusted and kept track of him. Once you actually put a defender on him, Lafrentz becomes much less useful. He isn't athletic enough to create space between himself and his defender when his defender is aggressive. He did well in Dallas because Dallas _always_ had three or four dangerous offensive players on the floor with Lafrentz, meaning he got wide open shots. The same goes for Marshall. And neither will get anything like an open look at the basket in that lineup. And, you do know that Graham & Allen are atrocious shooters, right? They aren't in the same galaxy as Pierce, at least one of them would need to become a "volume shooter" to produce 20 p/g, and they won't be shooting it at anywhere near the clip that Pierce did last year.


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

How is Pierce a volume shooter anyways? He took 1,223 FGs over 82 games. That averages out to 14.9 attempts per game. Pierce wasn't even in the top 20 in shots attempted. Plus he hit his shots at a 45% clip on the season. Either way that team just looks downright nauseating. 


C: Chandler/LaFrentz/Perkins
PF: Jefferson/Rose
SF: Marshall/Graham/Reed/Mancinelli
SG: Davis/Allen
PG: West/Banks/Huertas

Chandler isn't an offensive presence. Jefferson is a 2nd year player, could he even handle starting? Marshall is the definition of inconsistent, as is Ricky Davis. West and Banks is a good combination. The team could have the potential to be a decent defensive team but there would be no offense at all. That would be the most stagnating yawn-inducing offense in the eastern confernce. Who's going to shoulder the scoring load? Ricky Davis? Donyell Marshall? Delonte? Big Al? I don't think so. The Celtics need Paul Pierce.


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## theBirdman (Jun 20, 2003)

Big John said:


> Re: Mancinelli. My *Slovenian* friends tell me he he is very athletic and underrated. He's 22 years old. He would be a much higher pick if he were 19.


Slovenian friends?:biggrin: 

Well, I dont think he is anything special but like you said if he was 19 he would be a much higher pick. I just believe that there are quite a few better and certainly much more talanted european players that would be worth taking in the second round ahead of mancinelli.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

ehmunro said:


> The Mid Level Exception is only available to teams _over the cap_. If you're under the cap you don't get the MLE. It really is that simple.


See ****'s FAQ #18


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

theBirdman said:


> Slovenian friends?:biggrin:
> 
> Well, I dont think he is anything special but like you said if he was 19 he would be a much higher pick. I just believe that there are quite a few better and certainly much more talanted european players that would be worth taking in the second round ahead of mancinelli.


Like who?


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

Lanteri said:


> Jefferson is a 2nd year player, could he even handle starting?



exactly why bringing back toine should be a priority for this team


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

I'm glad to see that someone else realizes the greatness of NVE's contract. Trading for him would put Boston under the salary cap and make them a major free agent player. Although I think Portland would have to make that deal a little more desirable. Probably one of our Russians that Ainge has said he is enamored with. Sergei Monya plays the 2, maybe him. He is supposed to be the better of the two Russians, and although Khryapa didn't shoot as well as everyone seems to think he can he played GREAT defense and is an exceptional passer. So Monya can't be too shabby.


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## vandyke (Jan 8, 2004)

Pierce for NVE and Monya, people have to be kidding with that trade, how about a trade that I have posted before which would be good for both Portland and Boston:

resigned Shareef & Ruben

for Pierce
and there may be room to expand the trade to add other players but that is the basics of the trade.

resign Antoine & Payton, look to trade either one of Blount or Raef, move Ricky to starting two guard.

lineup:

Payton/Banks/West
Ricky/Ruben/West/Allen
Shareef/Reed/draft pick Villanueva, Granger, Warrick, or Graham
Antoine/Jefferson
Raef or Blount/Perkins

2 second round picks to develop


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

vandyke said:


> Pierce for NVE and Monya, people have to be kidding with that trade, how about a trade that I have posted before which would be good for both Portland and Boston:
> 
> resigned Shareef & Ruben
> 
> ...



I think you'd be better off with the 13 million dollars in free agent spending money you would have than SAR. I also think you'd be better off with Monya than Patterson, but whatever. That way you could sign SAR if you wanted and still have money left over for another piece through free agency.


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## whiterhino (Jun 15, 2003)

Sorry Big John but your lineup is one of the worst I've seen. I think your kidding yourself if you think that team could win 40+ games, I'm thinking I doubt they'd win 20, they look like the freaking Hornets. No thanx....trading Pierce for an expiring contract is a joke. I don't like Peirce and I'm all for getting rid of him and his attitude but not for a freaking expiring contract..Danny could get us those in his sleep if he so desired.
In my opinion what this team needs to do is dump Blount someway, whatever way possible...and that may mean giving up a young guy along with him...if it's Delonte or Tony Allen, go for it....I'm ok with that...I'm back to my original feelings on them on draft day, they will not amount to anything special in this league. Tony can defend but he gets thrown off too easily and he has no offense to speak of. Delonte is overated, period, he does nothing special n my opinion. Don't touch Al, Perk, or Marcus though, they are part of the core now. 
Either resign Toine or else you have to trade Paul....one does not work well without the other. If you are going to trade Paul it needs to be for a guy like Shawn Marion, Peja Stojakovic, Ray Allen, etc...anything else is a complete and utter rip-off. 
Al becomes a starter even if he's not ready and learns by fire. Marcus becomes a starter and learns by fire. Perk gets a MINIMUM 20 minutes a game. Re-sign Gary or get Brevin Knight to back up Marcus so that when he does get in trouble we have a go to guy. 
Explore the market on Raef, he had a good season, some team might take him. If we miraculously had cap room...guys to go after are Dan Gadzuric, Brevin Knight, Stromile Swift, Ray Allen, Chris Duhon, Kyle Korver, Sam Dalembaert most everyone else I would not want.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

My lineup would contend for a championship in two years.


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## Richie Rich (May 23, 2003)

Big John said:


> My lineup would contend for a championship in two years.



no way
its just not happening
look at the guys you have there
please


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## LX (Oct 14, 2004)

Big John said:


> My lineup would contend for a championship in two years.


Yeah, okay that lineup will contend for a championship, right after the Cubs win the world series. :banana:


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Big John said:


> My lineup would contend for a championship in two years.


Sure, in the Big Sky Conference. Unfortunately the Celtics play in the NBA. And given your scouting skills we'd end up wasting those top 5 picks that'd be our only reward for making you GM.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

Big John said:


> My lineup would contend for a championship in two years.


That team would be awful. You'd be getting rid of Antoine Walker, Paul Pierce, and Gary Payton and replacing them with Tyson Chandler and Donyell Marshall. Additionally, by your plan you can't even get Marshall because you would not have the MLE.


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## #1AntoineWalkerFan (Mar 10, 2005)

ehmunro said:


> Sure, in the Big Sky Conference. Unfortunately the Celtics play in the NBA. And given your scouting skills we'd end up wasting those top 5 picks that'd be our only reward for making you GM.




HAHAHAHAHAHA :laugh: ...i actually think the big sky coference has a team or 2 thats better...jameel pugh playes for sacramento state hes nasty lololol


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## Banjoriddim (Aug 14, 2004)

> Originally Posted by *Big John*
> 
> My lineup would contend for a championship in two years.


 :krazy: 

p.s. [strike]Are you sure that you are Celtics fan?[/strike]

Please refrain from questioning someone's loyalty to the team as it is baiting.

-Premier


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## ZWW (Jan 17, 2004)

If Pierce got traded for an expiring NVE contract and to move up 18 spots in the 2nd round, I'd picket outside Ainge's house.

Big John's idea sounds great for a young team with great defensive potential but the only offensive threat I see there is Ricky Davis and he'll crumble beneath that pressure. Nah, if Celtics deal Pierce, they better get someone that can score in return, like a Ray Allen.

And if the Celtics were to let Antoine & GP walk, while trading Pierce, and I assume Mark Blount, then where would our veteran leadership come from? Say what you want about some of the sluggishness of this current core of veterans, but I kinda like the balance of youth and veteranship exemplified this past year.


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