# (NBA Prospects) Athletic ability vs. General basketball skills....



## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

I have touched on this subject many times. The question being asked is what is more important in a NBA propect? Is is athletic ability superior to your competition? Or is it general basketball skills like passing, shooting, and just knowing the game. 

So what is it?

My view is obvious. I think athletic ability is the building block of every great NBA player. Athletic ability is un-coachable, and un-teachable. You can't teach a player to jump high, or run fast. I think over history athletic ability has show up in most of the games greats. Athletic ability is the base like I said, and once you have that base you can mold them into a better player. But the most important part is the athletic skill. I believe you can teach, shooting, defense, passing etc. I also throw dribbling into the categiory of athletic ability. Because you have to be athletic to drive to the hoop and finish, you have to be strong and quick to finish inside. But shooting, passing etc. a player really doesn't have to be athletic to accomplish those things. And I could make the case that defense is a athletic skill as well for some because it requires quickness, toughness, and stamina.

Here is my look at the NBA, I will make a list of the great athletes, and then a list of not so great athletes in the game. Lets see how it looks.

(Athletic players)- *BOLD* players are the leagues elite.
Derek Anderson
Ron Artest
Darrell Armstrong 
*Kobe Bryant* 
Kwame Brown
Caron Butler
Jonathan Bender
Chauncey Billups
*Elton Brand*
*Baron Davis*
Ricky Davis
*Tim Duncan*
Michael Finley
*Steve Francis*
*Kevin Garnett*
Pau Gasol
Eddie Griffin
Donnell Harvey 
Larry Hughes
*Allen Iverson*
*Antwan Jamison*
Richard Jefferson
*Jason Kidd*
Andrei Kirilenko
*Stehpon Marbury*
*Shawn Marion*
*Tracy McGrady*
Desmond Mason
*Yao Ming*
*Dirk Nowitzki*
*Jermaine O'Neal*
*Shaquille O'Neal*
*Gary Payton*
Scottie Pippen
James Posey
*Paul Pierce*
*Jason Richardson*
Jalen Rose
*Latrell Sprewell*
*Jerry Stackhouse*
Stromile Swift
Jason Terry
Tim Thomas
Dajuan Wagner
*Ben Wallace*
*Antonio Walker*
*Rasheed Wallace*
Gerald Wallace
Bonzi Wells
*Chris Webber*
Jay Williams



(Un-athletic players)
*Shareef Abdur-Rahim*
Shane Battier
Vlade Divac
Mike Dunleavy
Derek Fisher
*Richard Hamilton*
*Andre Miller*
*Steve Nash*
*Michael Olowokandi*
Glen Rice
Predrag Stojakovic
*John Stockton*
*Wally Szczerbiak*
Jamaal Tinsley


In summary, out of this list, 24 of the leagues elite are athletic, and 7 of them are not. Now remember this is just a random list and it is not set in stone. I just made it to prove the point that athletic players in todays NBA have a much great chance to succeed. Sure if a players has a developed outside game, and has really worked on his handle and his all around game he will probably do fine in the NBA if he isn't athletic. But out of the top 5 players in the NBA, I'm sure on anyones list, all 5 of those players are great athletes. 

Yeah the argument will come up that Larry Bird was not a great athlete etc. But to bring a present day situation into light I will give this example. The Memphis Grizzles had the 6th pick in the 2001 NBA draft. For that pick they took a pretty unathletic SG/SF in Shane Battier. The obviously picked him for his leadership and solid game in college. But there was a athletic freak named Gerald Wallace also in that draft, he was picked 24th. And right now Battier is averaging 7 point 4 rebounds a game. Sure Gerald is averaging a lesser 6 points 4 rebounds a game. But the key in all of that is Gerald had a breakout game where he scored 21 points. And Geralds upside is out of this world compared to the unathletic Shane Battier. Not saying Memphis should have picked him just giving a example.

Feel free to voice your view on the subject.


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## LionsFan01 (Aug 7, 2002)

Take a look at all the foreign players being drafted and their success so far. Yao, Peja, Gasol, Radmonovic, etc...are by no means super athletic, just very fundamentally sound which is why they're so good. They don't have the most talent like other players but they use what talent they have better than most players.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Obviously its a mixture of both but....

Judging from the fact that 'foreign' players are catching up to the NBA level of play here in the States, a case can be made that athleticism is a bit overrated in the NBA game. Case in point, the US got owned by 3 different teams (Argentina, Yugo, Spain) at the World Championships. Did the US have the most athletic and arguably most talented roster assembled? Yes. But the fundamental International style of play served to dismantle the more athletic and more talented Americans.

Athleticism definitely helps, and is a catalyst in player development. Ozzy, I'm sure you can attest to this. Yet for all the athletic freaks that make it in the NBA, I can name you a bunch more that fell woefully short of being a servicable NBA player:

Jaron Rush, Jeff Trepagnier, Paul McPherson, Ronnie Fields, Korleone Young, Leon Smith, Corey Benjamin, Harold Miner, Omar Cook, Rod Grizzard, etc....



VD


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## MightyReds2020 (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> Obviously its a mixture of both but....
> 
> Judging from the fact that 'foreign' players are catching up to the NBA level of play here in the States, a case can be made that athleticism is a bit overrated in the NBA game. Case in point, the US got owned by 3 different teams (Argentina, Yugo, Spain) at the World Championships. Did the US have the most athletic and arguably most talented roster assembled? Yes. But the fundamental International style of play served to dismantle the more athletic and more talented Americans.
> ...


Very well said. I agree.


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## spartanfan2003 (Jul 12, 2002)

> Jaron Rush



It's not his fault that he got arrested.


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

the fact is that even the "unathletic" players you named are very good athletes. this shows that you don't have to jump out of the gym to be one of the better players in this league but you have to possess servicable athletic ability. it is definately much easier to reach stardom and get drafted being a phenom athlete but it definately doesn't mean everything. 

bottomline, almost the entire nba is composed of good athletes. being a basketball/human freak is usually necessary to reach nba stardom.

as for foreign players, they have become very athletic and at the same time they have the size (another big factor for prospects) and the skills.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Sure every players needs to have fundementals and some athletic ability. What I'm saying is that athletic ability is the prefect building block for a super-star. Take LeBron James for example. He is a wonderful athlete, just coast's over the court with ease. It is almost effort-less. And I'm promise you if LeBron was not that great of athlete, we would not be talking about him. And his passing skills and rebounding skills just add to it. But I say that those are meaning-less if you don't have great athletic ability. 

As for your list well it is pretty good example of "athletes" that don't make it.


> Jaron Rush, Jeff Trepagnier, Paul McPherson, Ronnie Fields, Korleone Young, Leon Smith, Corey Benjamin, Harold Miner, Omar Cook, Rod Grizzard, etc....


But... Trepagnier still has a chance and is doing great in the NBA Development league! and I would make the argument that Korleone, McPherson, Omar, Rod are not really that athletic. Most of them are just big. But no way would I call Cook athlete, and McPherson was just built, same way for Young. Neither of them could really jump or run etc. Your right on Miner and Rush, but those are really the only ones that were pure athletes. As for Grizzard and Leon, well Leon was not like a Swift or Kemp type of athlete at PF or anything. And Rod just had a great handle, and was long, and he still does have a chance if he plays well in the development leagues.

But I still say athletic ability is the staple for greatness. In todays game it is better to have a athletic prospect with a up-side than a un-athletic prospect that just has some basketball skills. Sure skills are a big part but so is athletic ability.

As for the foreign players. Well I did put Yao and Pau in the athletic group. Because both are freaks at their positions. Come'on how many 7-6 centers can move like Yao, and same thing with Pau at 7-1. Peja is not athletic and I give you that. But I think Radmonovic is athletic, he sure is not some slow big man or anything. So I say those foreign players that have basketball skills. Well yeah they have basketball skills but they also are good athletes at their position.


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## Old School (Dec 17, 2002)

*What is athletic ability? Just jumping?*

Or quickness/reaction time?

I do not imagine Larry Bird is that fast but man was he quick. And Stockton doesn't jump well but he is lightning fast and quick. Both also have great hand/eye coordination which I believe is natural.

Problem in NBA today, IMO, is that there are too many athletes who can dunk but who cannot pass or shoot. I don't know what the solution is - hopefully the infusion of foreign talent will make American kids work on the fundamentals as well.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Take prospects like Damien Wilkens, Jerry Holman, Billy Richmond, Chris Bosh, Antonio Burks. All great athletes. And in my view should be high draft picks, expecially Bosh and Burks. But some will say Bosh can't shoot, or Burks is to much of a "street baller"

Well I say it doesn't matter if he looks like a street baller. He can penetrate the lane. Sure he might be a little eratic at times but he is a fine prospect all because of his athletic skills. Again I feel you can teach basketball skills, but to get a good prospect they must be athletic.

Here are the best athletes in the league.


To be honest I made this thread part of the reason of last years debate. I was saying Shane Battier is a horrible prospect and should not be drafted that high. But people gave me this crap that Larry Bird was not athlete blah, blah, blah. And look at Battier now. Like I said before he will go down hill the more his career goes along. And if you look at his stats, he has already started the decline. 

Also I get ripped on a long on how all I look at is athletic ability. Some people say I just like seeing dunks. Well your wrong. I like athletic players because they can do things others can't. Before they even step onto the court they are superior to there competition because they are quicker, faster, strong, and have better stamina. Sure not great basketball skills but with alittle competitive drive they will work on those skills if they really want to become great.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

My definition of athletic.

First off they must be able to jump. Jumping ability is very, very important in the game of basketball.

Second they must be strong, to show this they either grab a difficult rebound, or they dunk over 2 players. And just a side note, I feel that is a great attribute, the ability to dunk in traffic, because if you look at it, it is a lot harder than it seems.

Thrid is overall quickness, now that can be confused with the ball. But if they are quick without the ball as well that is a plus, and quickness on defense is a must.

Fourth is running ability. Can they get up-and down. How fast do they wear out, can they run, jump, and then jump up again at the same speed.

And I could go on.

But I do know basketball skills are very important. But what I want to get across is that I believe when starting out with a prospect. Athletic ability is more important than general basketball skills. Obvoiously they must learn general basketball skills. But again when starting out, I would rather have a athletic player to mold than a player with less athletic ability even though he migh be more skilled.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

You can see the NBA is in agreement with my view on prospects. Here is a look at every draft starting in 1997. I will count how many un-athletic players from my criteria were picked in the first round. And see how it changes over time.


1997
Danny Forston
Austin Croshere
Brevin Knight
Chris Anstey
Anthony Parker
Ed Gray
Paul Grant
John Thomas 
Charles Smith

1998
Robert Traylor
Michael Doleac
Bryce Drew
Pat Garrity
Roshown McLeod 
Brain Skinner 
Mirsad Turckan 


1999
Wally Szczerbiak 
Andre Miller
Richard Hamilton 
Trajan Langdon 
Will Avery
Quincy Lewis 
Dion Glover
Kenny Thomas 

2000
Mateen Cleaves
Jason Collier
Mark Madsen
Dalibor Bagaric

2001
Shane Battier
Troy Murphy
Jamaal Tinsley
Joseph Forte

2002
Casy Jacobsen
Dan Dickau


Don't get me wrong, I like Wally, Rip, and Andre. But as you can see there has been a decline in drafting just skilled players that are not exactly athletic. So it seems the NBA is going in that direction, it is not enough just to be a good basketball team. You must find players that are superior to their competition through athletic ability.


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## TMOD (Oct 12, 2002)

Yes, jumping very high is nice, but there are some not so visible attributes that fit into the athleticism category. Fact is, ALL great players had athletic talent in one way or another (yes, even Larry legend). The best players know how to control their athleticism, using their body, footwork, and fakes.

The "speed" category can divided into 3 sub-categories:

Speed- Just flat running speed, pretty much.

Explosiveness- The ability to cover a large amount of ground in a very small time, dribbling skill enhances it often.

Quickness- The ability to change your speed or direction in a very small amount of time.

Have a nice day!


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## Old School (Dec 17, 2002)

*more important for evaluating college guys*

Ozzy,

In general I agree with you, but especially in evaluating college talent. 10 years ago, if you were the best college player you'd be drafted top three - Laettner a great example. But you'd rather have the athletic college kid who didn't have much of a college career - Maggette springs to mind. 

But I think sometimes there is too much emphasis on athleticism when putting together a team. Meaning that throwing a bunch of great athletes together does not make a great team. I like to watch the Clippers for sheer entertainment value but they aren't a great team.

Maybe it swings in cycles - when everyone can hit a jump shot, then it's the guy who's more athletic and can power inside that makes the difference. When everyone can dunk inside and no one can hit a jump shot, then guys like Peja seem special.

Since the sellout (by David Stern) in my opinion of the NBA to quick ESPN-type videoclips you got all these guys who want to be like Mike and get on Sportscenter. I think the premium will be on well rounded players for the next five years at least.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

OZZY, this thread is really hard to debate... mainly b/c everyone here (including you) have differing views of what/whom is 'athletic'. 

If we were to based it on the criteria of hops, strength, quickness, running ability, etc as you say.....

Tim Duncan, Elton Brand, Dirk Nowitzki, Yao Ming, and Pao Gasol would not be included. Why? Because these guys won't win many footraces, slam dunk contests, endurance tests, or bench press contests. All of the aforementioned are very agile, superbly coordinated, and smart for their size... while possessing a superior muscle memory to repeat successful moves in ballgames.

The definition of 'athletic' is a very subjective one.

Thanks.



VD


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

Ozzy how do you have Jason Richardson as one of the leagues elite and not Mike Finley???????


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Vin Diesel I agree with your points. But I view Yao Ming athletic because no 7-6 player ever could do what he can. Be in movement in the lane, even getting up and down the court at that height is hard, and it is amazing how easily Yao does it. And Tim Duncan I consider a athlete because he really is one, he is a center that is athletic enough to go up against KG, Rasheed etc. He has a centers body, but his quickness, strength and power can match him up against PF's, that is why I call him athletic. Same thing for Pau. And Brand, well he is pretty damn quick, and can get up and down the court and finish strong when he has to, he is a bigger version of Barkley. Because he could not do what he does at that height if he wasn't athletic. But it is hard to judge.

And Old School I agree that teams can't just be athletic, take for example Portland. I think they should have NEVER got rid or Kerr for Daniels, but they did? Although athletic ability is why teams win titles. Sure they need role guys, every great team does. But role guys can be athletic as well, it just depends on if they shoot a lot of shots or want the ball. Take the Lakers for example, Horry, George are pretty athletic but they chose to use it on defense. And in reality the Lakers won last year because no player they played could match Kobe Bryant athleticly, and same thing with Shaq. No player could match Shaq's power, quickness, and strength. Thus they won the title because the athletic superiority of Kobe and Shaq. 

But this is about prospects, I would much rather build a prospect from a athletic base than just a general basketball skills base.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

Skills are very important. It's better to have a combination of both athletic ability and skills, but if I were to pick one, I'd pick skills. Who says athletic ability can't be taught? One can always go through training and get stronger, quicker, jump higher, etc. It's much easier to get stronger than it is to get better at shooting jump shots. Youngsters nowadays just aren't commited in basketball enough to take their time and practice their shooting. They have all the talent, but no patience to learn. That's why I think skills is more important.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Teach athletic ability? Ok, you find some un-athletic players and make them into regular Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, or Jason Richardson. I would like to see this.... You can improve stamina but you can't always improve vertical or running speed. Can to a certian point. But the athletic ability I'm talking about is only god given.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

if i was a GM and i had a choice between a super athletic freak and a fundamentally sound shane battier, id take my chances on the athletic freak developing his fundamentals within a few years.


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## zhaozhilong (Nov 26, 2002)

We've seen OZZY's list of athletic and un-athletic players, and the elite players in each category. I supposed most of us would generally agree with the categorization made (as to elite or not elite, athletic or unathletic). 

I don't think the lists "_prove the point that athletic players in todays NBA have a much great chance to succeed_ ", simply because we should not look at the number of elite players. Instead, look at the percentage. 

elite athletic players: 25/51 ~ 50%
elite unathletic players: 7/14 = 50%

About the same percentage. 
We can argue that the discrepancy in the numbers (51, 14) is the result of the prevailing opinion among coaches and GMs that athletism (over skill) is the foremost crucial attribute to look for when scouting for talents. If the opposite opinion (i.e. skill over athletism) were to be held by the coaches, maybe the situation now would be: 25 elite UN-athletic players and 7 elite athletic players. 

Also, can someone provide 2 other lists: 
-skilled players who are elite
-un-skilled players who are elite. 
I would be very interested to see those lists and the percentages. 

Those points were put forward for the sake of discussion. 

Now, my opinion. 
Yes, god-like athletism cannot be tought or trained, as OZZY put it. 99% of humans on this world will NEVER be able to run 100 meters under 10.5 seconds, no matter what. 

On the other hand, Ron Artest, James Posey, Derek Anderson (athletic players) will never gain the passing ability and court awareness of Magic, no matter how hard they train. Do you honestly think they would now be MJ #2 if they trained 12 hours a day 24/7 since 9 years old? I don't think so. 

So for some elite players in NBA, athletism is the outstanding attribute in their game, and they have good skills(trained). OTOH, some other elite players are outstanding in their skills, and they have good athletism(trained).

Basketball IS a sport of athletism AND skill. So, when you see a young player with either god-like athletism or exceptional skill, you grab him. Then train him on the part that he is lacking (skill or athletism).

Well, that's my opinion.


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## Old School (Dec 17, 2002)

*OK I take the athletic guy but not the strong guy*

Drafting on potential, I'll take the guy with good hands, jumping ability, and quickness, but strength for me is not so important because it can be the most easily developed with a consistent program. Again thinking Malone, Kobe, TMac, Jordan not Shawn Kemp as guys who went from lean to mean with a lifting program.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Teach athletic ability? Ok, you find some un-athletic players and make them into regular Tracy McGrady, Kobe Bryant, or Jason Richardson. I would like to see this.... You can improve stamina but you can't always improve vertical or running speed. Can to a certian point. But the athletic ability I'm talking about is only god given.


Well, if they already have the skills, they don't need VC verticals, or Tony Parker's speed. How high do you have to jump to dunk? Not 40 inches unless you're really short. How fast do you have to be to drive past your opponent? Not that fast if you can ball, have good ball control, and have killer crossovers. It helps to be athletic, but you don't want to be purely athletic.


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## Old School (Dec 17, 2002)

*Lou Roe - an example of strength not so important early on.*

You guys remember Lou Roe from U. Mass? now there was a powerful strong 20 year old. But that doesn't matter in the league. you can build the strength but not the hops (as much) or the general coordination.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Great post zhaozhilong!

You make some good points. But I still say athletic superiority is the reason why some players become great. Jordan was quicker, faster and could jump higher than anyone he played. Same with Isaiah, he was faster than anyone he played against.

Quickness, speed, strenght, and leaping ability are all keys to being a good basketball player. 

It is hard to get a good discussion going thought because the term "athletic" can be used in many different ways.

But overall, some players can get by with average athletic ability. But in my view, Kobe and Tracy are not great players just because of there handle or jump shoot. They are great because they can score, they can score because they are athletically superior to their competition and basically can't be stopped. Same with LeBron James when he comes into the NBA.

Skills are very important, but if you don't have those phyisical skills needed well I don't think they would be a great player. 

But it is kind of both ways, I just believe general basketball skills can be taught to a "raw" prospect, athletic ability can't.


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## RiSInG (Dec 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is Jason Richardson a league elite and not Pau Gasol? 
 :dead:


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## RiSInG (Dec 15, 2002)

You all guys who are saying that the foundaments can be teached to a athletic player...give me examples. How many athletic players without foundaments have become foundamented NBA players?

Grizzlies picked Stromile Swift with this ilusion...and you can see,Stro is still a showman,but not a player.

It's only a example,but there are lots of examples like this in the NBA.

My opinion: talent is 100 times more important than the athleticism.


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## I'm Just Saying (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> I ha
> 
> 
> ...


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Well it depends what your definition of "talent" is.

My definition of talent is something you can't teach. And more times than not the "something you can't teach" is athletic ability. Sure there are talented passers, shooters, handlers etc. There are players that have a great feel for the game and know whats going on. But most of the time that talent, is in the form of athletic ability.

Basketball is the most athletic dependent sport in the world, and being athletic is always a must when looking for greatness.


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## I'm Just Saying (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!


My previous post got screwed up. what I tried to post is the following:

Your list of atheletic vs non-atheletic is CRAZY WRONG!

Tim Duncan, Elton Brand, Yao Ming, Dirk Nowitzki, and many others are not considered to be very atheletic compared to their peers, but they do have SKILLS & FUNDAMENTALS, which is what makes a player great.

Don't get me wrong, atheleticism helps but you can only be great if you have the SKILLS.

Think about a few examples:

(1) Magic, Bird, Stockton were a 10 on skills and a 5 on atheleticism and were ALL-TIME GREATS.

Michael Jordan is probably an 8 on skills and a 9+ on atheleticism.

Correy Maggete and Darius Miles are probably a 3-4 on skills and a 9 on atheleticism and nobody would argue that they're even one of the three best on their own team.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Like I said, I new people would bring up the Larry Bird factor. They did when I said Shane Battier would be a bad pro player, and they brought up Bird.

Ture some greats are not freak athletes, but you look at the young greats in todays game. Well they are all athletic. And as for Dirk not being athletic, well if he was not athletic he would be a center, not a wing PF that can slash and run. As for Yao, well find me a 7-6 player ever that can move that well. And Brand, well take away his vertical leap, and his strong hands and good phyisical strength, if he didn't have those he would not be a good player. As for Duncan, again, he is a freaking center, he has the body of a center. But he is athletic enough to play PF and go up against KG, Rasheed, Webber all great athletes...


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## I'm Just Saying (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> Like I said, I new people would bring up the Larry Bird factor. They did when I said Shane Battier would be a bad pro player, and they brought up Bird.
> 
> Ture some greats are not freak athletes, but you look at the young greats in todays game. Well they are all athletic. And as for Dirk not being athletic, well if he was not athletic he would be a center, not a wing PF that can slash and run. As for Yao, well find me a 7-6 player ever that can move that well. And Brand, well take away his vertical leap, and his strong hands and good phyisical strength, if he didn't have those he would not be a good player. As for Duncan, again, he is a freaking center, he has the body of a center. But he is athletic enough to play PF and go up against KG, Rasheed, Webber all great athletes...


Hey youngblood, what about Corey and Darius, If it was all atheletics wouldn't they be All-NBA? 

Are you really saying that Brand, Dirk and Duncan are in the same league atheletically as KG, C-Web, and Chandler?


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## tenkev (Jun 12, 2002)

I think that you underestimate the skill involved with being a good shooter and the skill involved with being a good passer or a smart player. These are things that are natural talents. You can train and get better in them, but you can't make a bad shooter great. For all the training and practicing and expert help, Shaq's FT% in 2002 was still just .555, .042 LESS than when he was a rookie. Being a great athlete is great, but you also need to have other things going for you like shooting ability, intelligence, court vision, etc.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

First off Miles is extremely young, and second there are exceptions to every rule. Yeah Maggette might not be all NBA, but most great athletes are.


P.S.


> Hey youngblood


 Don't ever call me "youngblood".


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## I'm Just Saying (Jul 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>OZZY</b>!
> First off Miles is extremely young, and second there are exceptions to every rule. Yeah Maggette might not be all NBA, but most great athletes are.
> 
> 
> P.S. Don't ever call me "youngblood".


Would you prefer "youngster"? You're obviously very young.


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