# Jerry West wants Deng AND Gordon for Gasol, Paxson declines?



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

This will get done in some form or fashion by the deadline



> January 21, 2007 -- EARLIER this season, I revealed Boston had offered Memphis its choice of any combination of Celtics for Pau Gasol. Michael Heisley, a lame-duck owner at the time whose pending sale of the team recently ruptured, responded by anointing the franchise forward "untouchable."
> 
> Well, guess what, Heisley's uncompromising stance has been rewritten on dust in the wind.
> 
> ...


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Wow.

I'm with Pax... I would absolutely not give up both Deng and Gordon.

I'm willing to part with Deng. I love Deng, he's been "my guy" from the beginning. But with Noc, Griffin, and maybe Thabo and Thomas down the road, I think there are plenty of options to fill in there. 

We don't have any options to replace Gordon as a legitimately dangerous outside scoring threat. None. And nothing obvious on the horizon.

So I simply don't see how we could get rid of him, even to get a good inside/outside guy like Gasol. Becaue if we did that, the deal would pretty much be pointless. The point here is to create a scary inside/outside threat. If we replace our inside hole with an outside hole, we've missed the point.

So I'd counter with PJ, Deng, and the pick. That's a square deal from where I sit. The pick will at worst be in the early to mid teens in a very deep draft. PJ, Deng and Gordon for Gasol and Warrick is too much overpayment.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

put me in the category of those who feel pax is right not giving up deng AND gordon; the inside-outside game with gasol would be lacking without gordon, plain and simple. OTOH, if deng leaves, there's the possibility of thomas replacing him in time and noc still on board. as well, with gay and warrick on board already (yes, i know warrick was mentioned in the deal) i'm not sure the grizz would be as high on deng as they would on gordon, a pg and a scorer.

i'm guessing brown, deng and a pick will do it by the deadline.

HOWEVER, i'm not huge on gasol; he's a little soft for my taste, though he would be a major upgrade for the bull. garnett would be my obvious choice, but he's unobtainable imo so if getting gasol and not raping the team is doable, pull the trigger.

at this juncture, i like the ideas of wilcox or ely for the present, keeping the pick and going for it with the slightly less talented role players.


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## giusd (Apr 17, 2003)

Deng and next years 1st for Gasol is a fair trade but Gordon and Deng you have to be kidding. No way does pax trade almost 40 pts per game for 18 pts per game. That is a stupid trade. Paul is not a superstar and is an above average big man with good offensive skills and weak on Defensive. Is Gasol really that much better than deng? I dont think so. Jerry West has wasted draft pick after draft pick on stiffs and now he wants two of our best four players and almost 40 pts per game for a player who doesn't want to play for the Griz. Please now way.

david


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

You have to be kidding. We wouldn't even make the playoffs if we did that trade. Both Deng and Gordon are better individually than Gasol themselves. Memphis can take some type of Hinrich/Nocioni, PJ Brown, and Knicks pick package, they have to be ****ting themselves if they think they're going to get Gordon or Deng. You only trade Deng if its for Jermaine O'neal, you don't trade Gordon in any scenario, unless its Duncan, Bryant, Ming, or Wade.


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## smARTmouf (Jul 16, 2002)

Clearly this is West's BEST case scenerio.

I'd pass...And I'm positive Pax will pass as well.

With a low post offensive presence...Gordon becomes much more dangerous...He MUST stay.

Bottom line.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Why wouldn't you give up Deng and Gordon? It's not like Gasol can't score as much as Gordon, but a lot more efficiently, and in a manner that is going to make his teammates better. Nocioni easily replaces Deng's production. And Hinrich-Duhon make up for Gordon. With the depth the Bulls have, it would be silly not to make that deal, given that your weakness is front court scoring, not small combo guard 6th men.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Why wouldn't you give up Deng and Gordon? It's not like Gasol can't score as much as Gordon, but a lot more efficiently, and in a manner that is going to make his teammates better. Nocioni easily replaces Deng's production. And Hinrich-Duhon make up for Gordon. With the depth the Bulls have, it would be silly not to make that deal, given that your weakness is front court scoring, not small combo guard 6th men.


Are you for real?


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## Nu_Omega (Nov 27, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Why wouldn't you give up Deng and Gordon? It's not like Gasol can't score as much as Gordon, but a lot more efficiently, and in a manner that is going to make his teammates better. Nocioni easily replaces Deng's production. And Hinrich-Duhon make up for Gordon. With the depth the Bulls have, it would be silly not to make that deal, given that your weakness is front court scoring, not small combo guard 6th men.


Hmmm..Kinda weird equation you got there. In that case how about Nocioni and PJ for Gasol? Like you said, Nocioni easily replaces Deng's production and we'll throw in PJ to add some interior defence and rebounding that Gasol lacks. 

Where do we sign?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

While I agree that Deng + Gordon is too steep a price, I hope the door hasn't closed on talks. If a deal can be worked out that works for both clubs, I'd love to see Pau a Bull.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> Why wouldn't you give up Deng and Gordon? It's not like Gasol can't score as much as Gordon, but a lot more efficiently, and in a manner that is going to make his teammates better. Nocioni easily replaces Deng's production. And Hinrich-Duhon make up for Gordon. With the depth the Bulls have, it would be silly not to make that deal, given that your weakness is front court scoring, not small combo guard 6th men.


I know the whole hate on the Bulls thing is your little shickt, and you'd feel empty without your little forum identity, but face the facts.

Ben Gordon- 21.1 PPG on 51 eFG% and 87.6 FT%

Luol Deng- 17.9 PPG on 53 eFG% and 74.9 FT%

then

Pau Gasol- 19.3 PPG on 58 eFG% and 77.1 FT%

When you factor in both eFG and FT%, Gordon is pretty damn close to Gasol this year.

Deng is decently close too, Deng+Brown would be a reasonable trade for him.

But remember, Gasol's already peaked, Gordon and Deng are going to get better, Gasol isn't.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> Why wouldn't you give up Deng and Gordon? It's not like Gasol can't score as much as Gordon, but a lot more efficiently, and in a manner that is going to make his teammates better. Nocioni easily replaces Deng's production. And Hinrich-Duhon make up for Gordon. With the depth the Bulls have, it would be silly not to make that deal, given that your weakness is front court scoring, not small combo guard 6th men.


give up 40 ppg for 19 and a soft 7 footer.....ummhmmm...what's even stupider (yea, that's a word i'd use for ridiculous ideas like these) is that hinrich/duhon makes up for gordon. stop watching games on the radio, superfan........

keep the day job and i hope your favorite team doesn't let you anywhere NEAR their roster.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Well I hope Paxson thinks the same as you guys, because the only way the Bulls are worrying me is if they address their need for a post scorer. Otherwise they'll be a streaky team complete dependent on the whims of their outside shooting. Which won't get it done in the playoffs.

You guys really need to get over the notion that Ben Gordon is going to win you a championship with no interior presence on offense.

Is the Bulls depth really that bad this year that they have nobody on the roster who can play adequately off the ball?

Or are you guys just overrating Gordon(someone put him on Tim Duncan level in this thread) and underrating Gasol(saying he's worse than JO).


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Oh and you guys can stop getting so salty whenever anyone gives a diffrent opinion than yours. It's not offensive to suggest that the Bulls would be better served to have a real low post scorer instead of another 2 outside jump shooters.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Well I hope Paxson thinks the same as you guys, because the only way the Bulls are worrying me is if they address their need for a post scorer. Otherwise they'll be a streaky team complete dependent on the whims of their outside shooting. Which won't get it done in the playoffs.
> 
> You guys really need to get over the notion that Ben Gordon is going to win you a championship with no interior presence on offense.
> 
> Is the Bulls depth really that bad this year that they have nobody on the roster who can play adequately off the ball?


You think Gordon is merely an adequate off the ball player who can be replaced by giving more minutes to Chris Duhon?

Umm... I don't think I need to put Gordon at Tim Duncan's level to disagree with that.

Getting a post scorer at the expense of our only guy who can create his own shot is a lateral move. Yeah, Gordon won't win a championship for us with no inside scorer, but Gasol won't win a championship for us with no outside scorer. 

We need both.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

LOl, both Deng and gordon? is jerry west out of his mind? I think west is just trying to make the starting price steep, but when he re-negotiate, he's going to get a good value for gasol. my feeling it's going to be either deng or gordon+pj brown+ duhon+the pick.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't trade Deng and Gordon for anything less than Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, or Kobe Bryant.

For Gasol, I would give up Deng. While Deng is young, Noce adequately can fill his role, and Gasol on our team would have a greater impact. I do not trade Gordon for anyone other than the 3 guys I listed at the beginning of my post. You need Gordon along a inside scorer. 

If they are willing to throw in Hakim Warrick, I'll take that. What I would give up for Gasol, if they MUST REQUIRE two core players, Deng (I assume him or Gordon are a requirement) and Hinrich. 

I don't understand Deng's role on that team if Gay is the future. 

I do think we can get Gasol for a decent deal (meaning keeping all but one core player) only if we throw in the draft pick. I do like getting Hakim Warrick back. I would take back one ugly contract (Cardinal) if it meant not giving up an extra core player. We wouldn't be under the cap for the next so many years.

Deng + PJ + Sweets + Duhon + NYK (Top 1 protected?) for Gasol and Warrick works. I would even unprotect the pick, b/c with the way NYK is playing, and Gasol is better than anyone in this draft minus Oden and Durant.

Edit: If we HAD to include Kirk, Deng, and NYK, I want Gay coming back with Gasol.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

West might be asking for so much because he has no intention of trading Gasol unless someone would be foolish enough to over pay for him.

There's a mention of Gasol in the Sun-Times this morning, in a John Jackson column on who might be available for trades:



> Memphis Grizzlies management has said Pau Gasol isn't on the market. Even if he was, I doubt I would be willing to give up two members of the Bulls' young core for the cottony-soft power forward/center.
> 
> After the big trade between the Indiana Pacers and Golden State Warriors last week, the chances of the Pacers trading power forward Jermaine O'Neal have dropped dramatically. The main reason Al Harrington was dealt to the Warriors was because he and O'Neal weren't meshing together well.
> 
> ...


http://www.suntimes.com/sports/jackson/222273,CST-SPT-jax21.article


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

What about Deng and Gordon for Gasol and Mike Miller?

Gordon plus Deng does seem like a very steep price to pay.

But, I also agree we'd clearly be getting the best player in the deal.

What about Deng, TT and the pick swap for Gasol?


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> What about Deng and Gordon for Gasol and Mike Miller?


That is something I would consider. If we had to give up two core players, I'm more willing to give up Kirk than Gordon. I think Gordon will EXPLODE next to an inside presence. You can argue that Miller's addition along with keeping Kirk makes us a better team than having Gordon and Duhon running the point. Chances are that will happen. But, Gordon just knows how to finish games.

I'm more willing to take my chances on an unprotected NYK swap option than trading Gordon. There is a small chance we get Durant/Oden. Outside of those two, I don't see anyone else becoming significantly better than Gasol.

Push comes to shove, I'll take Gasol and Miller for Gordon and Deng. But I would put my full efforts in Deng, NYK, and expirings for Gasol and Warrick.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Clearly Deng and Gordon is too much, but just one of them isn't.

The problem with centering the trade around Deng is that he is probably the least useful player to Memphis standing alone. This has already been pointed out. 

Someone please explain why Memphis would trade Pau with Deng as the centerpiece?

If Pax can pull that off, he's a miracle worker. 

Gordon is the guy that Memphis will insist on. He fits their most glaringly obvious needs. And I think a deal can get done with him as the centerpiece. 

Essentially, a lot of you are saying Gasol isn't worth Gordon. I don't agree. 

I'd rather trade Hinrich or Deng as the centerpiece, but I don't see it happening from Memphis' perspective. And I think Gasol makes the Bulls a better team than Gordon does.

Basically, no Gordon no Gasol. So I guess we'll just pass on Gasol and keep shooting jumpers. Surely another scoring 4 of his caliber will come along shortly. Right?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

How about Deng and Hinrich for Gasol and Warrick?

I agree with Futuristxen that we shouldn't be so salty about posts/opinions of outsiders to this board. I personally am quite interested in the balance that outside views bring to my own homer view.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> You guys really need to get over the notion that Ben Gordon is going to win you a championship with no interior presence on offense.


Get over it? I don't think we ever came to that conclusion lol

we know what we need, but giving up both our breakout players isn't the way to get it done


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Ron Cey you make great points. I keep wondering what is the point of Deng on that team since they have Rudy Gay, where if he has the motivation of a Luol Deng, has a higher ceiling. 

I would make a trade for Gasol if it meant giving up two core players. I would do a Gasol and Miller trade for Deng and Gordon. We still put out a very comepetitive team in Wallace, Gasol, Noce, Miller, and Kirk. 

We would lose some depth due to the amount of outgoing salaries required to make the trade work. I'd like to get back Warrick if we can. We prolly have 1 in a Million odds of luring away Rudy Gay if we give up Deng and Gordon. That won't happen.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

The ROY said:


> Get over it? I don't think we ever came to that conclusion lol
> 
> we know what we need, but giving up both our breakout players isn't the way to get it done


I do think Gordon next to Gasol will make our offense very lethal. But, the addition of Miller with Gasol, I do not think we take a big step back. Miller put up some good games when Gasol was hurt. 

But Deng serves a less purpose than Gordon. If we can get a deal done with Gordon as the center piece, we miss out on a lot of outside scoring. I do not think they'd give up Miller WITH Gasol if they were only getting Gordon.

The question is, how valuable will the NYK pick be worth, would it replace a core player that would be otherwise need to be added in a trade?


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

I wouldn't trade Gordon for Gasol. I feel like we'd be making a mistake doing that.

I don't wanna include either of them personally but we may have to.

If we DID do the move?

G Hinrich / Duhon
G Sefolosha / Griffin
F Nocioni / Khyrapa
F Gasol / Thomas / Warrick
C Wallace

Definintely deep as hell but just not the same. We'd still have the NY pick and could still grab that future C with a pick between 8-12.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Gordon and Deng is a bit too rich for my blood. Those have clearly been our two best players this year. I agree with K4E that giving up both of them wouldn't work too well unless we got some production back from the shooting guard spot, and Miller could provide that.

I'd still prefer to give up one of Gordon or Deng, preferably Deng right now, considering how important Gordon has become to our team makeup. 

I hate to be a broken record, but can you imagine if we had drafted Brandon Roy? If you add a player who can really play to a win now team, you're in much better shape in a consolidation trade:

Hinrich
Roy
Nocioni
Gasol
Wallace

That team could go far.

Anyway, one of these days, I'm going to just forget about Brandon. Maybe.

I don't like the trade that West wants, but I do have to admit that I see a silver lining in this article: Jerry West likes some of our players enough to part with Gasol. This was something we didn't know. Now let's see if he'll take another appealing package from us.


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## soonerterp (Nov 13, 2005)

Deng and Gordon for Pau Gasol? NO, THANKS.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

> But don't misunderstand; this negotiation is only in its infancy.


 - Vescey

That's all I needed to hear. Pax WILL get it done.

Gasol will be a Bull before the deadline.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Clearly Deng and Gordon is too much, but just one of them isn't.
> 
> The problem with centering the trade around Deng is that he is probably the least useful player to Memphis standing alone. This has already been pointed out.
> 
> ...


Will another scoring guard of Gordon's caliber come along shortly? 

Because I think a scoring guard that can create for himself is probably the second hardest to find thing next to a good big guy.

Deng is my boo, but he's not a guy that can create much for himself. Neither is Hinrich. Neither is Gasol for that matter. 

So in theory, yeah, in getting Gasol for Gordon, you might get a little bit rarer player. But in practice it leaves us in _exactly _the same position, with respect to long-term winning, that we are in now. We close one hard to fill hole and open up another one.

Is there another deal that can be swung to fill the hole created by trading Gordon?


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I agree with DMD's points. 

I also have mixed feelings. I want Gasol, and I think a price of Gordon and Deng is as cheap as it will come for any inside presence. KG and JO will warrant an additional key asset or two. I do like Gasol over KG and JO's additions, so I would want to get a deal done. I don't see Deng as the center piece getting the deal done alone. I also don't see us getting Miller without throwing in Deng, if Gordon was to go. We brought in Thabo primarily to be paired with Gordon in the backcourt. Would any of you give up Thabo along with Gordon, so we can keep Deng, but get Miller in return? I see Thabo fitting in well in Memphis, especially if they want to run a la Phoenix. Would West do that? 

I wish they had drafted a SG, so they would want Deng over Gordon, but Gordon will be the player that makes or breaks this deal. I may be in the minority, but I'd rather throw in the NYK Swap than Gordon. Chances are we won't get Oden/Durant.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

MikeDC said:


> Is there another deal that can be swung to fill the hole created by trading Gordon?


Maggette?


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

Sorry Jerry, if you were willing to talk in the offseason before these two really stepped up their play, you would of had a chance, but now you won't have a chance.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Has Vescey ever been right before?

I think Gasol is a bit overrated here in terms of team needs. He's not the lockdown interior defender needed to maximize Ben Wallace's value.

I'd counter offer the Grizzlies this: Duhon, Nocioni, Brown, Knicks pick for Gasol and Staudamire


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

MikeDC said:


> Will another scoring guard of Gordon's caliber come along shortly?
> 
> Because I think a scoring guard that can create for himself is probably the second hardest to find thing next to a good big guy.
> 
> ...


How bout Maggettte?

G Hinrich
G Maggette
F Nocioni
F Gasol
C Wallace


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Mebarak said:


> Ben Gordon- 21.1 PPG on 51 eFG% and 87.6 FT%
> 
> Luol Deng- 17.9 PPG on 53 eFG% and 74.9 FT%
> 
> ...





kukoc4ever said:


> What about Deng and Gordon for Gasol and Mike Miller?
> 
> Gordon plus Deng does seem like a very steep price to pay.
> 
> ...


If you look at Mebarek's excellent post, I'm not sure it's so clear that Gasol is the best player in the trade. You can be relatively certain that he's the best player right now but considering Deng and Gordons' ages, it is likely that both will be more effective than Gasol in a season or two. Those two are also less expensive in the short term since they still have a year left on their rookie deals and probably won't make as much as Gasol with their first contracts. 

Clearly (almost) everyone agrees that trading both is far too expensive. If you agree to pull the trigger with one of the two included, you're making a strong statement about position, saying that you're willing to break even at best in terms of talent and long term commodities to acquire a certain type of player ie a low post scorer. 

If you do trade one of the two I will agree that Deng is probably easier to lose. I still have a certain level of discomfort there though because I personally believe Deng will ultimately be better than Gasol and any player on the Bulls roster (he's the team's most likely All-Star). 

The thing Pax has to remember if these negotiations are truly going to go down, is that the next best offer will come from the Celtics. Two important facts about the Celtics are that 1) they are not a contender as Gasol has requested (this kinda makes me doubt this report, I'm skeptical that Memphis would allow Gasol to handcuff them like this) 2) the Celtics don't have any sure things like Deng or Gordon to offer in a trade, meaning that no additional substantial assets should be added to a deal including either player.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> How bout Maggettte?


But you still have to trade more pieces for him.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

The ROY said:


> How bout Maggettte?
> 
> G Hinrich
> G Maggette
> ...


I mentinoed him above. Good to see us seeing eye to eye.

Sad thing is, to get Maggette, we'll have to give up another spot whose void we can't fill.

If Deng and NYK pick can lure Gasol and decent player, then we add depth and fill a big need. It probably won't happen, but if we could get Gasol and Miller for those two, then WOW.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

i actually think this is going to be the trade..

Gordon(memphis wnats gordon the most, they already hve gay)
PJ brown
no.1 pick
Noc
duhon(they want a PG too)

for
Gasol
miller(with gordon and gay, miller has no future there)

i think that's the most fair trade for both teams, memphis gets an explosive guard at gordon whos already averaging 21ppg, the pick, and 2 very good serviceable players in noc and duhon which they could use, and the expiring contract.

bulls gets the big man they need to compete in the playoffs, and a good replacement at the guard spot for gordon/duhon.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I would probably give up Deng and Kirk for Gasol, and that deal could be made to work under the cap. Simply put, Kirk is more replaceable than Ben Gordon IMO. 

Deng, Kirk, Sweetney, Barret, Andrews for Gasol. The Griz would need to waive a couple of their scrubs to make it work, but it's a CBA compliant trade.

We also retain Brown to either stay and mentor Tyrus or be traded off for a replacement guard


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Sith said:


> i actually think this is going to be the trade..
> 
> Gordon(memphis wnats gordon the most, they already hve gay)
> PJ brown
> ...


Honestly, this is a very good trade but I personally have a HARD time parting with Ben Gordon.

G Hinrich / Duhon
G Miller / Sefolosha
F Deng / Khyrapa
F Gasol / Thomas
C Wallace

Very good team but just not the same without Madison Square.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

The real reason to do this trade is to shift the team into "win now" mode.

We get a vet player in Gasol to play next to Wallace and fill a position we clearly need.

We lose Deng, but have a capable back up Nocioni.

Losing Gordon with little production in return though? No thanks. 

I agree, Deng/Gordon for Gasol alone does not, IMO, increase our chances of winning this year or next year enough to warrant doing the deal and giving up on "win later."

What if the Bulls could parlay the pick swap and TT for a legit star level 27ish SG?

Hinrich/very good vet SG/Nocioni/Gasol/Wallace

That's a damn solid starting unit and good enough to take the East, IMO.

If we can't do that, and the only way to get Gasol is by losing Deng and Gordon both, without another productive player from the Memphis side, then I say pass. It will be a shame to watch Wallace age and not really capitalize on his signing, but those decisions were all in the past.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

The Bulls would be stupid to trade Gordon. He's their only player capable of creating his own shot against good defense and of bringing his slumping team back into a game late with a barrage of scoring. Championship hopefulls need that kind of player.

Including him in a trade for Gasol would be one step forward and a step backwards.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

If we make the move for Gasol, I doubt another move for a star/vet SG will get done. That would shift the chemistry a bit TOO much IMO.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

That replacement guard, I suppose, could be Maggette, though I don't know that the Bulls would want him.

I don't know that the Clips give him up just for expiring and used up PJ Brown either.

Still, consider the possibility of a Gordon/Maggette/Noc/Gasol/Wallace lineup. We've got Duhon, Thabo, Griffin, Khyrapa, Thomas and Allen as our backups. Not a lot of scoring there, but there's a lot of firepower in the first 5. Maybe Noc still comes off the bench and they use Griffin or Khyrapa the way Dallas used him last year?


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Ben Gordon is the LAST guy we want to give up in this deal. As far as I'm concerned, everyone else is available (except maybe Wallace, since the whole idea here is to pair Gasol & Wallace together). I love Luol Deng, but he's totally expendable with the SF depth we have. Heck, I'd even give up Hinrich or Tyrus Thomas.

I surely hope Paxson lures them in with the draft pick. Draft picks should be attractive for a team hoping to sell the franchise. This is exciting though, a front line of Nocioni, Gasol, and Wallace gets me giddy.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Yah, I agree, I'd be a lot more willing to make that deal with Hinrich included.

Hinrich/Deng for Gasol.

It would be a win next year move in that case, IMO, since we'll need to use the MLE on getting the best starter level PG available in the off-season. 

Atkins can't be traded from the Griz. But perhaps we can get Damon and try Damon/Duhon for this season. Not all that confident about that though.

We would have a real advantage over most teams we play at the 4/5 though with Gasol. And I think that’s extremely valuable in the NBA.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Even if we don't trade them Gordon, I still think there are some assets on this team that should be appealing to Memphis:

Deng: He would be the best player on their team. They could start him and Warrick together at forward and eventually bring Gay into the lineup along with Deng when he's ready. He's averaging 18/6. That's why he's of value. Has having Deng and Nocioni as Bulls made us better? You bet it has.

Pick swap: If you want to rebuild, get some more lotto picks, and get them in THIS draft! Right now, the pick is a #10 pick, which might net you a special player in this draft. I'd still at least like to #1 protect it if we trade the pick.

Tyrus: Here's another player who's similar to a Memphis player in Warrick. Thomas has talent though, and he's inexpensive for a while.

Duhon: Memphis is not going to want to acquire much salary. Du is on the books for one more year at a reasonable rate. He's a good game manager who plays good defense, and until Lowry is healthy and ready, Du could help them manage things. 

Thabo: Another cheap, good, talented young player. 

PJ Brown: He has a large, expiring contract, and he's big enough to play center. That's a big part of what would make a deal possible with Memphis. I'm glad we haven't traded him (yet).

Khryapa: Another young, cheap swingman with some ability. Memphis probably wouldn't be interested unless they gave us a swingman as part of the deal.


Players Memphis might be interested in:

Hinrich: He's just now escaping his slump, but Hinrich's not as valuable to Memphis because he gets paid big money as early as next year. Nevertheless, his contract is not excessive in today's market, and he's still a young player. 

Nocioni: How much will Noc command next year, and would he stay with the Griz if he was traded there? I don't see how he's a good fit despite being a good player.


Would Deng, PJ Brown, the pick swap (#1 protected), and Thabo/Duhon be enough for Gasol?


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Again, can anyone recall Vescey being right about something?


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

TripleDouble said:


> Again, can anyone recall Vescey being right about something?



I can recall MANY times were he broke stories early. Don't know why he gets bashed as MUCH as he does.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

A trade better get done. Thats all I know. I'm willing to throw in NYK pick or Kirk, but not Gordon. I just hope that Pax sees it the same way. Imagine trying to double team Gasol when Gordon is sitting right there in the corner.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

The ROY said:


> I can recall MANY times were he broke stories early. Don't know why he gets bashed as MUCH as he does.


Yup.

Most writers have links to teams. They spend quite a bit of time with them. Now you also have to take in mind that a GM and his staff's job is to improve their team or situation (cost, salaries, etc)... so they will mull over tons of ideas and thoughts. And while some of this will leak, I'm sure it'll always get reported, if just for the writer to make him or herself look important and knowing. So some of these 'ideas' and 'rumors', where the Grizzles may have offered Gasol and Gordon, but got rebuffed, we are going to have a hard time finding out if true or not.

An example that stands out in my mind is when Vescey reported the Nets offered Kittles, KMart, KVH coming off their finals run for KG. 2 years later Thorn accidentally confirmed the 'offer' to another writer. Now you say that was never going to pass, it's silly, Vescey is just making stuff up... but it's a GM's job to explore as many avenues as possible, so they are gonna do stuff that we'll never hear of.

What I say that, you don't think Paxson made a counter offer of some sort? This only reports one angle, the Grizzles. It would be silly to consider the Bulls didn't even make some low-ball type offer.

-Petey


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

theanimal23 said:


> I'm willing to throw in NYK pick or Kirk, but not Gordon. I just hope that Pax sees it the same way.


Agreed.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

We need Gasol but we need Gordon too. Gasol and Gordon would be a very nice 1-2 punch. Gasol-Hinrich/Gasol-Noc won't be as good. So, I really don't think it would work if we have to give up specifically Gordon. We would get Gasol, but who are we going to go to if Gasol's double teamed? No, Hinrich/Noc won't cut it. Gordon has been proving everybody that he's a reliable go to guy. Those of you who says he's streaky haven't been watching him play after the Bulls early season slump. He's averaging 21 ppg at .450 FGP.

One other reason not to let go Gordon is that he's the only guy that has that "Killer-Instict" on this team. Not even Gasol has that. So Trading Gasol for Gordon is just like going back to square one.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

To me Gasol would be a perfect fit for the Bulls, you get a low post go to guy who should be able to play off Ben Wallace on the defensive end and he's only 26 years old. I think with a fairly high draft pick that Tyrus Thomas or the pick could be moved maybe along with a Nocioni or Deng +filler if needed. This one is a no brainer to me.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

giusd said:


> Deng and next years 1st for Gasol is a fair trade but Gordon and Deng you have to be kidding. No way does pax trade almost 40 pts per game for 18 pts per game. That is a stupid trade. Paul is not a superstar and is an above average big man with good offensive skills and weak on Defensive. Is Gasol really that much better than deng? I dont think so. Jerry West has wasted draft pick after draft pick on stiffs and now he wants two of our best four players and almost 40 pts per game for a player who doesn't want to play for the Griz. Please now way.
> 
> david


It's not exactly a 40ppg for 18ppg trade, because it would open up time for another player where as someone who doesn't follow the Bulls much (me) thinks you have more depth.

Now here is a question.

Would the production of Gasol, whoever is getting Deng's minutes, and Gordon's minutes be more than whoever Gasol replaces, Deng and Gordon?

As noted I don't really follow the Bulls, so I'm not sure how much teams double Gordon, but how would that compare to the looks that Gasol would generate off doubles.

I think Gasol's value is being underrated. Now agreed while it appears he doesn't want to play in Memphis, look at the big men that have signed large contracts. Dalembert, Curry, Chandler, West, and so forth. Even guys like Jason Collins, Foyle, James getting full MLE type deals. If you were going to invest large sums of salary cap, Gasol at the Max looks pretty good huh? He's a great investment.

-Petey


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

rainman said:


> To me Gasol would be a perfect fit for the Bulls, you get a low post go to guy who should be able to play off Ben Wallace on the defensive end and he's only 26 years old. I think with a fairly high draft pick that Tyrus Thomas or the pick could be moved maybe along with a Nocioni or Deng +filler if needed. This one is a no brainer to me.



Nah, this trade is bad anyway you look at it. It would give us the post presence but take away our perimeter presence and two best players.

Nah


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Petey said:


> It's not exactly a 40ppg for 18ppg trade, because it would open up time for another player where as someone who doesn't follow the Bulls much (me) thinks you have more depth.
> 
> Now here is a question.
> 
> ...


I actually believe to some extent, his value is OVERRATED, especially with Bulls fans. Pau Gasol is a STRONG #2 option on a team but he's not 'the GUY' by any means.

Gasol & Wallace is hell of a frontline but when you subtract Deng AND Gordon? I don't think you get better at all.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

This Chicago-Memphis deal isn't going to happen. I doubt Gasol is going to be moved until the offseason when Jerry can evaluate what his team looks like.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

Petey said:


> It's not exactly a 40ppg for 18ppg trade, because it would open up time for another player where as someone who doesn't follow the Bulls much (me) thinks you have more depth.
> 
> Now here is a question.
> 
> ...


All that is true. But, it's definitely a no deal if Gordon has to be included. Gasol is a great talent. But Gasol hasn't showed anybody that he's Tim Duncan/KG type of go to guy. He's a level below them. If we trade Gordon for Gasol and that leave us with Gasol, Hinrich, and Nocioni, we're just going to be like the Grizzlies of the East. Gordon is a difference maker. We can't lose him. He's becoming the most important player of this team IMO.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

HKF said:


> This Chicago-Memphis deal isn't going to happen.


Sure, but I'd rather be optimistic about what's in front of us, and that's a deal being discussed


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

The ROY said:


> I actually believe to some extent, his value is OVERRATED, especially with Bulls fans. Pau Gasol is a STRONG #2 option on a team but he's not 'the GUY' by any means.
> 
> Gasol & Wallace is hell of a frontline but when you subtract Deng AND Gordon? I don't think you get better at all.


I meant in the terms of $$$. Teams overpay for 'bigs', look what Chandler got, Dalembert got, look at the contract the Hornets gave to PJ Brown. Gasol got his contract based on potential and production. Which alot of 'big men' cannot be said the same of. When you have one who produces for what you pay, that makes his value better. Plus Gasol plays on a deeper team. Has for years. His lower numbers could be attributed to the PGs he has played with and having to share shots that he shouldn't.

-Petey


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

The deal in the way it was written...no way. Good for Pax for turning it down. However, they may continue to talk for another month and get something done by deadline. Detroit made a move, we need to as well. Win now. 

Gasol is young and fits into our team very well. As long as its Deng,(and I love deng! the kid is going to have a very nice career)BJ and the pick, is fine with me. Or even add hinrich and let thabo and duhon play more. Gasol is athletic, runs the floor and can pass. His presence allows Gordon to be even better than he is now. 

I really think Gasol will be a bull in a month. As long as TT and Gordon are not included, I am fine with that.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Say we keep Gordon, do you think they give up Miller at all since they will be rebuilding and keep costs low? Would any of you do a Miller for Thabo swap in this deal? Just curious. I highly doubt we get more than Gasol and Filler by giving up Deng only.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Say we keep Gordon, do you think they give up Miller at all since they will be rebuilding and keep costs low? Would any of you do a Miller for Thabo swap in this deal? Just curious. I highly doubt we get more than Gasol and Filler by giving up Deng only.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Just heard the rumor on KLAC AM570 out here in LA, aka the Lakers' flagship station. They clearly stated that the Grizz were asking for Gordon, Deng, PJ Brown's contract, _and_ a number one draft pick.

Too steep. Gordon ain't going no where IMO. Hopefully something gets done w/in the next month.


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

It's one thing to feel you MUST trade a player (Iverson's a recent example), but quite another to simply be WILLING to trade a player for the right deal.

Assuming that the Grizz don't have a screaming need to trade Gasol, a young, VERY talented 7-footer, if I'm West, I don't trade him to the Bulls unless I get Gordon. Period. Any proposals that don't include Gordon are a waste of time.

And if I'm West, I don't want Hinrich. That $11MM pricetag next season is a bit of a poison pill for a rebuilding small-market team. Gordon-Deng-Brown for Gasol-Miller might be worth discussing, but the Bulls would have to add something else to make it work cap-wise since Miller's at $7.5MM.

Net, you want Gasol, say good-bye to Gordon. If these things were easy, we'd all be NBA GMs.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

transplant said:


> It's one thing to feel you MUST trade a player (Iverson's a recent example), but quite another to simply be WILLING to trade a player for the right deal.
> 
> Assuming that the Grizz don't have a screaming need to trade Gasol, a young, VERY talented 7-footer, if I'm West, I don't trade him to the Bulls unless I get Gordon. Period. Any proposals that don't include Gordon are a waste of time.
> 
> ...


Gasol + Miller for
Gordon + Deng + Khryapa + Sweets + PJB

Bulls are left with Hinrich/Miller/Noch/Gasol/Wallace and Duhon/Hawk/Thabo/TT/Allen on the pine. Hmmmm


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

If we don't have to include the draft pick, then Deng + Gordon is a decent/good trade. The team isn't championship caliber without Gordon, but it would be considerably better than what it is now. I hate gambling on draft picks, but next year's draft is unbelievably deep. The pick will have a lot of value in trade, and there are several incredible SGs from what I hear. Belinelli and Rudy Fernandez are two of the best young players in Europe right now. I would feel comfortable gambling on one of them to be the next Ginobli. The only question is how soon.  

A guard like Steve Francis (ugh) would also be a good short-term option if he got bought out. 

Mike Miller is another SF who plays average defense and makes a substantial sum per year. He's useless for our team. 

I don't understand why Memphis is asking for Deng and Gordon but not for the pick. Both will need to be extended for a lot of money next year. That's not smart for a franchise that is supposedly losing a lot of money.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Nah, this trade is bad anyway you look at it. It would give us the post presence but take away our perimeter presence and two best players.
> 
> Nah



What two best players? you wouldnt be giving up Gordon, Hinrich and either Deng or Nocioni. two best players?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I suspect Miller would be next to untouchable because he's a pretty ideal running mate for Gordon. Tall guy with a very good handle and can shoot.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

I agree mike. They keep Miller. I dont see them blowing up the entire team. Just moving Gasol.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

rwj333 said:


> If we don't have to include the draft pick, then Deng + Gordon is a decent/good trade. The team isn't championship caliber without Gordon, but it would be considerably better than what it is now. I hate gambling on draft picks, but next year's draft is unbelievably deep. The pick will have a lot of value in trade, and there are several incredible SGs from what I hear. Belinelli and Rudy Fernandez are two of the best young players in Europe right now. I would feel comfortable gambling on one of them to be the next Ginobli. The only question is how soon.
> 
> A guard like Steve Francis (ugh) would also be a good short-term option if he got bought out.
> 
> ...


Steve Francis is done...

Mike Miller can play SG and SF...


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

rainman said:


> What two best players? you wouldnt be giving up Gordon, Hinrich and either Deng or Nocioni. two best players?


um

I coulda swore Ben Gordon & Luol Deng were our best players..

Which is what he wants for Gasol..

I could be wrong though


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Yeah. 

A couple other things that should be mentioned. First, the Grizzlies have Eddie Jones coming off the cap, so they're already clearing a lot of salary this summer. They don't have a hard and fast financial need to do the deal.

On the other hand, I wouldn't underestimate how much of a headache Gasol could make himself. At the very least, he won't make his value go up.

Second, what would other teams be willing to offer? Sure, West could just decide to ride things out, but if sooner or later he's going to move him, then it's important to see what other teams will give. There's no sense in offering more than is necessary to get him. And what's necessary to get him is just a little more than the next best offer, not everything we possibly could offer.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

transplant said:


> It's one thing to feel you MUST trade a player (Iverson's a recent example), but quite another to simply be WILLING to trade a player for the right deal.
> 
> Assuming that the Grizz don't have a screaming need to trade Gasol, a young, VERY talented 7-footer, if I'm West, I don't trade him to the Bulls unless I get Gordon. Period. Any proposals that don't include Gordon are a waste of time.
> 
> ...


Repped.

Great post. Thats what sucks about this, we would rather give up our SF, and they don't have a need for a SF.

I would send off Gordon if we got Miller in return. We do have the NYK pick, and chances are we could turn that pick into a decent SG via trade or have a variety of draft options in a draft that will be led by Big Men. 

But BG7 is coming into his own, and I think that him and Gasol would be a deadly combination for other teams to guard.

Remember, we are dealing with Jerry West. He has made a few bad deals (i.e. Cardinal signing) but not many. I'll throw in a future pick (2008) on top of the NYK one to keep Gordon, but only give up Deng and Expiring deals.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Yeah.
> 
> A couple other things that should be mentioned. First, the Grizzlies have Eddie Jones coming off the cap, so they're already clearing a lot of salary this summer. They don't have a hard and fast financial need to do the deal.
> 
> ...


Good points. 

Would the Lakers still offer Bynum + Odom, given how well Bynum is doing? Boston could offer Jefferson + Green + Ratliff. 

It's hard to see another team outbidding Deng + the pick, which I think everyone agrees is the ideal trade.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> um
> 
> I coulda swore Ben Gordon & Luol Deng were our best players..
> 
> ...


I thought you were responding to my proposed deal which didnt include Gordon, problem in Chicago, and most fans are in denial, is you dont have defined best players, you win with stars not just good players. Make the deal you arent winning the title with what you have.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

rainman said:


> I thought you were responding to my proposed deal which didnt include Gordon, problem in Chicago, and most fans are in denial, is you dont have defined best players, you win with stars not just good players. Make the deal you arent winning the title with what you have.


We aren't winning it with Gasol & without Deng/Gordon either


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> We aren't winning it with Gasol & without Deng/Gordon either


You dont know that, i like my chances with Gasol. I think you're overrating Luol Deng.















i


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

rainman said:


> You dont know that, i like my chances with Gasol. I think you're overrating Luol Deng.


Overrating Luol? Nah, I'm not but you're definintely overrating Gasol who hasn't won his team 1 single playoff game yet.


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## ballerkingn (Nov 17, 2006)

I think if we can get gasol we should try,but i'm with everyone else the price tag is too high,i wouldn't do that deal for any player in the nba.Now i know some of you are like what?,but you have to think about the team chem when you trade 2 of a team's best player's,esp on a team so young.

I think though if we had to part with ben or deng i would pick deng any day.Yes this kid is good,but he has no heart,and dissapears to much in big games,so if someone had to go it would be him.My only question to that is don't the griz already have rudy [email protected],what then will happen too him.

I still think we have more then enough to make the deal work without giving up ben or deng for that matter and still get gasol.We have p.j contract,sweets contract,VK contract,and a 1st round pick all in the last year's or 1 more year lefted.I think in the end that will be the deal something with those player's without giving up deng only reason why i say that is because look at what A.I got traded for bascially nothing IMO,and A.i is better then gasol in my book.So don't worry i think in the end the griz will take the cap space that we can give them over the talent we can give them,but if i had to give up 1 again it would be deng.Ben will be a star once we get a post player in here.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

ballerkingn said:


> I think if we can get gasol we should try,but i'm with everyone else the price tag is too high,i wouldn't do that deal for any player in the nba.Now i know some of you are like what?,but you have to think about the team chem when you trade 2 of a team's best player's,esp on a team so young.


Ugh, I'd trade that package for Dwight, Dwayne, Kobe, Lebron, etc. and a good number of other superstars...

I'd probably do a Deng/Gordon package for Gay & Gasol...

G Hinrich / Duhon
G Sefolosha
F Nocioni / Gay / Khyrapa
F Gasol / Thomas
C Wallace


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Overrating Luol? Nah, I'm not but you're definintely overrating Gasol who hasn't won his team 1 single playoff game yet.



First off small forwards dont impact a game like powerforwards do, second if you have Nocioni and Gordon on the wings my point is you can afford to give up a Deng and going forward you draft another wing in the 07 draft. 

Pau Gasol lead his team to the world championships dont tell me about winning a playoff game. That to me says more about the other 11 guys he plays with.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

rainman said:


> First off small forwards dont impact a game like powerforwards do, second if you have Nocioni and Gordon on the wings my point is you can afford to give up a Deng and going forward you draft another wing in the 07 draft.
> 
> Pau Gasol lead his team to the world championships dont tell me about winning a playoff game. That to me says more about the other 11 guys he plays with.


World Championships? The best players in the world are in the NBA.

He can't do it in the best league in the world but he can beat the China's & Puerto Rico's of the world. That's not saying much to me.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> World Championships? The best players in the world are in the NBA.
> 
> He can't do it in the best league in the world but he can beat the China's & Puerto Rico's of the world. That's not saying much to me.


Seems like the USA was in that tournament but i may be wrong. Here's my point and i'll leave it at this, you arent winning a thing with what you have, make a move, KG, Gasol whomever, do something.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

Also keep in mind that Gasol may be pulling a Vince Carter right now (at least on defense), though obviously not to the same degree. He's not as soft as he's appeared lately.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

The more I think about it, the more I'd be somewhat willing to do that trade.

The key would be dealing TT and the pick for a stud 2. A Ray Allen type. 

If they made that trade, they would have to move all the way into the win now boat.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

kukoc4ever said:


> The more I think about it, the more I'd be somewhat willing to do that trade.
> 
> The key would be dealing TT and the pick for a stud 2. A Ray Allen type.
> 
> If they made that trade, they would have to move all the way into the win now boat.


Would we have any more salary to ship out to make the contracts work?


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

To me, it only makes sense to make a trade for Pau Gasol if we're going to firmly enter 'win now' mode. And going into 'win now' mode only makes sense if we can turn ourselves into legitimate championship contenders, and I'm not sure that adding the current production of Pau Gasol and subtracting the current production of one of our core is going to get us there. 

Otherwise, I'd rather stay pat. 

I think the only deal I would do is Tyrus, NYK pick unprotected, Mike Sweetney, Viktor Khryapa, Andre Barrett, and Marty Vicious for Pau Gasol. 

We essentially trade all of our future chips for Pau Gasol. This deal is obviously beneficial to the Bulls, but...........it'd only make sense to give up members of our core if it was a very good deal for us. 

Making this trade gives them the #2 pick in last years draft, and will give them two lottery picks in this years draft to reload with Rudy Gay and Hakim Warrick, and with a lot of caproom to sign a FA. Assuming you project Rudy and Tyrus at the forward spots, they'll have the 3 and 4 spots covered for the future, they'll be able to use the two draft picks to fill two other spots, and the cap room to fill in the rest, and go from there.

That probably isn't the best case scenario if you're a Grizz fan, and you're looking to trade Pau.

It'd leave us a lineup of:

Ben Wallace
Pau Gasol
Luol
Ben
Kirk

With Noc, PJ, Duhon, and Sefolosha rounding up the bench. And THE HAWK. Our means of improving in the future are reduced to using the MLE for the next 4-5 years, but I think we'd be a championship contender for about that time period, and considering Pau, Luol, Ben, Kirk, and Noc are either still on the upward curve of their career, or about on its summit, our future is reasonably secured as well.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> Would we have any more salary to ship out to make the contracts work?


Yah, that's an issue. I'm unable to get any of these trades to really work after brown is gone.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> Also keep in mind that Gasol may be pulling a Vince Carter right now (at least on defense), though obviously not to the same degree. He's not as soft as he's appeared lately.


I agree. I remember watching Pau in the playoffs last year, and thinking he was anything but soft. Even though the Grizz got licked in that series, he was mixing it up inside like crazy. I think Pau would be a great fit next to Ben Wallace.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> The more I think about it, the more I'd be somewhat willing to do that trade.
> 
> The key would be dealing TT and the pick for a stud 2. A Ray Allen type.
> 
> If they made that trade, they would have to move all the way into the win now boat.


That move looks good on paper but would only take touches from Gordon. A 4 to go with Wallace is what you're looking for or dont do anything.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

rainman said:


> That move looks good on paper but would only take touches from Gordon. A 4 to go with Wallace is what you're looking for or dont do anything.


Gordon would be in Memphis.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

I do not think West really wants Gordon. I think the guard he really covets on the Bulls roster is Thabo. He is already married to Kyle Lowry as the future PG and Thabo and Lowry would form a nice defensive duo at guard. I also think he really likes Deng because unlike Gay and Tyrus, Deng is already a productive NBA player. Deng is also the same size as Hakim Warrick and he or Gay can play PF in a running attack.

Deng, Thabo, NY pick, PJ Brown for Pau, Hakim, Dahntay Jones maybe adding a Duhon for Damon swap.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

> Deng, Thabo, NY pick, PJ Brown for Pau, Hakim, Dahntay Jones maybe adding a Duhon for Damon swap


Done deal.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> I do not think West really wants Gordon. I think the guard he really covets on the Bulls roster is Thabo. He is already married to Kyle Lowry as the future PG and Thabo and Lowry would form a nice defensive duo at guard. I also think he really likes Deng because unlike Gay and Tyrus, Deng is already a productive NBA player. Deng is also the same size as Hakim Warrick and he or Gay can play PF in a running attack.
> 
> Deng, Thabo, NY pick, PJ Brown for Pau, Hakim, Dahntay Jones maybe adding a Duhon for Damon swap.


Done. Where do I sign? I'm not sure I would even give up Warrick if I were you.

Deng, Thabo, NY pick, PJ Brown for Gasol and Jones/Kinsey. I'd prefer Jones, but I'll do this deal to get Pau.


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## ballerkingn (Nov 17, 2006)

The ROY said:


> Ugh, I'd trade that package for Dwight, Dwayne, Kobe, Lebron, etc. and a good number of other superstars...
> 
> I'd probably do a Deng/Gordon package for Gay & Gasol...
> 
> ...


I wouldn't you take away 1 of the game's best clutch performers in your line up that has no 1 in it that can hit a big 3 if we need 1 or make a big play like ben could.And as for the guy's you named only maybe dwayne i would trade deng and ben 4 the rest no way in hell.All of them won't do anything alone on anyteam they all need help and if you trade ben and deng they will have no 2nd tier player to play with.How did kobe do without shaq the 1st year Bad.Lebron isn't carrying the cav's as far as everyone expect's,and dwight is still raw offensive wise.All great,but they all need help right now or with alway beside D-wade who can carry a team on his own.

And i would never trade ben and deng for gasol and Gay NO.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> I do not think West really wants Gordon. I think the guard he really covets on the Bulls roster is Thabo. He is already married to Kyle Lowry as the future PG and Thabo and Lowry would form a nice defensive duo at guard. I also think he really likes Deng because unlike Gay and Tyrus, Deng is already a productive NBA player. Deng is also the same size as Hakim Warrick and he or Gay can play PF in a running attack.
> 
> Deng, Thabo, NY pick, PJ Brown for Pau, Hakim, Dahntay Jones maybe adding a Duhon for Damon swap.


MemphisX,

As a grizzlies fan, do you think it's possible that a deal could be done with Tyrus, Thabo, the NY pick (unprotected), and expiring contracts for Pau Gasol as the principles?

As a Bulls fan, I think that's the only trade I really like, but I'm not sure if it's any good for the Grizz, especially considering the guys they already have on their roster.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Deng and Thabo? Sign me up


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

theanimal23 said:


> A trade better get done. Thats all I know. I'm willing to throw in NYK pick or Kirk, but not Gordon.


Then prepare yourself for disappointment. Saying a "deal better get done" and then saying "but no Gordon" is incongruous. 

If you want a deal that badly, you better just assume Gordon is gone in my opinion. To me, Paxson will have to choose between Gordon and Gasol.

I'm shocked at how many of you appear to think that choice should be Gordon. Jump shots and PJ Brown hook-bricks it is.


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

rosenthall said:


> MemphisX,
> 
> As a grizzlies fan, do you think it's possible that a deal could be done with Tyrus, Thabo, the NY pick (unprotected), and expiring contracts for Pau Gasol as the principles?
> 
> As a Bulls fan, I think that's the only trade I really like, but I'm not sure if it's any good for the Grizz, especially considering the guys they already have on their roster.


IMO he wants at least one proven commodity. I think Jerry West in an earlier article outlined  what he wants for Gasol.



> ''I've talked to a bunch of teams. But what they want you to do is ridiculous. Everyone thinks there's a fire sale here. There's no fire sale here, period. None. I think there's a clear direction of where we want to go here and what we'd like to accomplish for now, for the remainder of the season, and for the rest of the year.
> 
> ''Would we do something if we had an opportunity to do something? Yes. But we have to have get something back in return that helps us either next year or helps us in the summer get to where we want to get.''


He knows Chicago is not giving up both Deng and Gordon. I think it is either Deng, Thabo, pick or Gordon, Tyrus, pick.


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## RayAllenIverson (Sep 26, 2002)

Chicago Trades:

Tyrus Thomas
Chris Duhon
PJ Brown
Mike Sweetney
Malik Allen
CHI 2007 1st-round pick (w/ the option to swap w/ NY)

Gets:

Pau Gasol
Kurt Thomas
Damon Stoudamire


Phoenix Trades:

Kurt Thomas
Marcus Banks
PHO 2007 1st-round pick

Gets:

Chris Duhon
PJ Brown


Memphis Trades:

Pau Gasol
Damon Stoudamire

Gets:

Tyrus Thomas
Marcus Banks
Mike Sweetney (expiring)
Malik Allen (expiring)
CHI 2007 1st-round pick (w/ the option to swap w/ NY)
PHO 2007 1st-round pick


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

not happening


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

transplant said:


> It's one thing to feel you MUST trade a player (Iverson's a recent example), but quite another to simply be WILLING to trade a player for the right deal.
> 
> Assuming that the Grizz don't have a screaming need to trade Gasol, a young, VERY talented 7-footer, if I'm West, I don't trade him to the Bulls unless I get Gordon. Period. Any proposals that don't include Gordon are a waste of time.
> 
> Net, you want Gasol, say good-bye to Gordon. If these things were easy, we'd all be NBA GMs.


Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

Ron Cey said:


> Jump shots and PJ Brown hook-bricks it is.


In that case, we'd then be treated to a steady diet of Duhon either throwing up bricks or passing up open shots for tougher shots for teammates and Thabo throwing up bricks mixed with rookie turnovers. 

The object of the trade would be to become a championship level team, and I, and I believe others don't believe that creating a big hole in the backcourt leaves the team in the position the trade is aimed at getting the team. Gasol would need a guy on the outside who can create his own shot like Gordon, and it'd probably nice to have than one guard who can shoot, especially when the when capable shooter is as streaky as Hinrich.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Why wouldn't you give up Deng and Gordon? It's not like Gasol can't score as much as Gordon, but a lot more efficiently, and in a manner that is going to make his teammates better. Nocioni easily replaces Deng's production. And Hinrich-Duhon make up for Gordon. With the depth the Bulls have, it would be silly not to make that deal, given that your weakness is front court scoring, not small combo guard 6th men.


You should start watching Bulls games again.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

I have no problem giving up Deng. We have Noc, Viktor, Tyrus, Griff, Thabo, and possibly Warrick to play SF for us. More than enough. 

Warrick has potential. I like him just as much as Gay. Warrick is built like Gay but he's not afraid to mix it up. He was playing some C/PF earlier in the season and grabbing double digit boards. Athletic as hell too. 

I'd prefer to deal Hinrich instead of Gordon. Nobody has mentioned it yet, but maybe we could take back one of their bad contracts (Swift or Cardinal) as an incentive. 

Deng/Gordon/PJ for Gasol/Warrick is NOT that bad of a starting point from West. I'm actually surprised he's willing to 'throw-in' Warrick. I like that kid. Vescey even said no mention of draft picks (NYK) were discussed, which is also surprisingly good news (for us). 

I see room for compromise here, especially when the next team in line for his services is Boston, and I don't think they'd be serious contenders even if they added Gasol for nothing. The fact they'd have to give up a lot in return definitely eliminates them from 'contender' status, so I'd think Gasol would junk any possible deal to them.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

futuristxen said:


> Why wouldn't you give up Deng and Gordon? It's not like Gasol can't score as much as Gordon, but a lot more efficiently, and in a manner that is going to make his teammates better. Nocioni easily replaces Deng's production. And Hinrich-Duhon make up for Gordon. With the depth the Bulls have, it would be silly not to make that deal, given that your weakness is front court scoring, not small combo guard 6th men.


I agree with you but my point has been it wont take both to do the deal. With Rudy Gay i dont think they would want Deng so it would probably be Gordon or maybe Hinrich(i dont think they have a pg there in Memphis). Would probably have to give up the draft pick(with some protection) to get West's interest but i think a deal is more than just a pipedream. A lineup of Wallace, Gasol, Nocioni and Gordon to me is a lot more formadable than what you have there now.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Babble-On said:


> In that case, we'd then be treated to a steady diet of Duhon either throwing up bricks and Thabo throwing up bricks mixed with rookie turnovers.
> 
> The object of the trade would be to become a championship level team, and I, and I believe others don't believe that creating a big hole in the backcourt leaves the team in the position the trade is aimed at getting the team. Gasol would need a guy on the outside who can create his own shot like Gordon, and it'd probably nice to have than one guard who can shoot, especially when the when capable shooter is as streaky as Hinrich.


Look, I don't want to trade Gordon either. 

But Nocioni is a capable perimeter threat as is Deng out to 19 feet. Plus Hinrich as you note.

I'd rather add what Gasol brings to that mix personally. But it appears that most of you would opt for a 4th perimeter guy instead of 3 perimeter guys and one of the best scoring 4s on the planet - age 26.

So be it.

Maybe Paxson can work a miracle and convince one of the greatest GMs ever to give us Gasol in exchange for a small forward he doesn't need and a first round pick that isn't even a lock for the lottery.

Do it Pax!!


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## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

West wouldn't be negligent in his duties if he didn't ask for Deng and Gordon. You can't just expect a fire sale, it's a seller's market. The Bulls are a flawed team at the moment (low-post scoring), it's a bit optimistic to suggest that Jerry West should cater to your needs to complete the team (by trading his franchise player for a replaceable part of the core, and spare parts).

Basically, he's not going to give him away, there's going to be some part of the (hypothetical) trade that will leave a question mark for the Bulls' rotation. A lot of the proposed trades are logical in a basketball sense, but that won't be the market value. There is more demand for Gasol than desire to trade him away.

Hope you can appreciate the opposing point of view.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

I would give up a lot for Gasol, but not our two best players. Two of our core, I would.

So I first suggested Hinrich instead of Gordon.

My thinking is that we could make do with Duhon as a starter (we have all along for the most part) and we have Thabo and the Hawk to play backup minutes. Not a horrible situation in the back court.

We lose Deng, who's been terrific for much of the season, but Gasol is certainly an upgrade at the things Deng doesn't do (like being 7', grab 10 boards a game, dish out assists), and is even a slightly better scorer. Deng may end up being the better scorer in a year or two.

I would certainly give up the draft pick, and I would even consider giving up Thomas in the deal, too.

For Memphis, they get two proven young players, a draft pick to add to their own, and some upside in Thomas (something like a #2 pick already chosen).

I do expect Warrick back, or if they want to give us Gay, I'd take it in a heartbeat.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Then prepare yourself for disappointment. Saying a "deal better get done" and then saying "but no Gordon" is incongruous.
> 
> If you want a deal that badly, you better just assume Gordon is gone in my opinion. To me, Paxson will have to choose between Gordon and Gasol.
> 
> * I'm shocked at how many of you appear to think that choice should be Gordon. Jump shots and PJ Brown hook-bricks it is.*


That's a talking point, not a counterpoint to any of the legitimate issues that have been made in this thread. 

Perhaps a good argument can be made, but you need to address why becoming a one-dimensional inside team is better than being a one-dimensional outside team. 

It's not as simple as saying "Duh, Ben Wallace is better than Tyson Chandler so lets give Wallace the farm and dump Chandler for tall junk". Whether you still agree with those moves or not, I hope you understand the analogy. It's not as simple as you're making it seem.

Gasol is a good player, but he's not an overpoweringly good player. He's a second-tier star. He's not going to get a lot better than he is. Gordon's going to continue to improve significantly.

Offensively, Gasol's largely a jump-shooter himself. He's certainly got an inside game, but it shouldn't be oversold. He fits the role next to Wallace nicely, but he, like Deng, doesn't create a lot for himself. Defensively, he's certainly got the tools I'm not positive he can play the Rasheed Wallace role the way we seem to be assuming he is. It's worth a try, but as the cost of obtaining him goes up, it needs to be scrutinized more closely.

I think we can lose Deng and gain Gasol and still field a offensively competitive team. Noc can step in for Deng and we've at least got a threat. But we've got no equivalent replacement for Gordon. And without that we'll have teams game planning to deny Deng and Gasol (and to a lesser extent the extra streaky Kirk) the ball and make Duhon or Ben Wallace hit open shots.

Brick, Brick, Brick.

Irrevocably, with a Gasol for Gordon deal we're talking about committing major minutes to playing 3-on-5 offense. There's no other way around it, barring another trade. Wallace, Gasol, Deng, Hinrich, Duhon. That's three guys who can play offense and two guys opponents will have no respect for. That's a losing combination. And it doesn't get better if you replace Duhon with any of his conceivable replacements- Thabo or Griffin.

You're advocating putting our offense on the shot of Chris Duhon and trotting out the phrase "brick" against people on the other side of the fence? C'mon, I'm a Duhon fan, but that just ain't smart.

If the Bulls could figure out a worthwhile replacement, then maybe this makes sense, but otherwise we end up with just as flawed a team as we start with. Perhaps moreso.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

DaBullz, you're willing to give up Deng/Hinrich/NY's pick AND Tyrus? Man, I like Gasol too but he's not THAT good.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Instead of Deng and/or Gordon, would you trade the following, and would West accept it: Tyrus and NYK pick as the two significant pieces of the trade. We get to keep our best players, and Thabo who should be able to compliment BG7.

If push came to shove, I would do a Gasol and Miller trade for Deng and Gordon. I am really reluctant to give up Gordon, but I feel that Miller can provide us a solid outside touch. It is more difficult to find an inside scorer than a SG. However, I'd try to squeeze out another asset from Memphis. As MikeDC points out, Gordon just bring certain intangibles to our team. According to a Memphis Fan on RealGM, he thinks the deal can happen for significantly less. I only hope he is right. Others on RealGM think a deal can happen soon, but I think its their gut feeling/hope. I hope they are right. 

I have to think Deng and NYK pick including expiring should be enough. Deng would be a senior in college, is averaging close to 20 points a game, and using the NYK pick and their own, they can pick up two big men in the draft. 

We will be the clear winners of this trade if Gasol publicly states he wants out. Unless that occurs, you don't get stars for a bargain. Lets hope he claims that and indicates he wants to go to a contender (kinda like giving out a list of teams). We obviously are the front runners there. West would ship him East.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

SALO said:


> DaBullz, you're willing to give up Deng/Hinrich/NY's pick AND Tyrus? Man, I like Gasol too but he's not THAT good.


It's tough to have a team starting Duhon and Wallace on offense. I'd take out Kirk, and I'm still kind of reluctant to do that deal. Thats 3 lottery picks.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

SALO said:


> DaBullz, you're willing to give up Deng/Hinrich/NY's pick AND Tyrus? Man, I like Gasol too but he's not THAT good.


It's what a consolidation trade is about. We're giving up two starters for 1 and two bench players for 1.

We start:
duhon, gordon, wallace, pau, nocioni

Our bench:
thabo, hawk, warrick, sweetney, viktor

(obviously we lose PJ Brown for his contract $$$ to make the deal work).

Our team becomes way more balanced, and the only thing I see us needing for the next couple of years is a backup point. I would definately re-up sweetney.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

MikeDC said:


> That's a talking point, not a counterpoint to any of the legitimate issues that have been made in this thread.
> 
> Perhaps a good argument can be made, but you need to address why becoming a one-dimensional inside team is better than being a one-dimensional outside team.
> 
> ...


Very well put.

I'd also like to add that Gordon is the only guy on the team who is eve close to being worthy of the closer label, and Gasol wouldn't replace him in the respect either, IMO. The other guys on the team? Hinrich has struggled even getting quality shots off in those end of game situations, Deng tends to be a non factor at those times, and Noch, while a willing shooter in those situations, has a slow release and isn't great at creating for himself.

I agree with Ron Cey that Gasol>Gordon, but I don't advocate trading for Gasol if the team thats left around him afterwards isn't good enough to go all the way, especially when you consider such a trade would likely exhaust all the team's avenues at improving outside of MLE type players and 2nd round picks.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> I'd rather add what Gasol brings to that mix personally. But it appears that most of you would opt for a 4th perimeter guy instead of 3 perimeter guys and one of the best scoring 4s on the planet - age 26.


That's because those 3 "perimeter guys" are either not perimeter guys or are fundamentally different types of players than Gordon, or both.

Deng fundamentally cannot create a shot for himself. He's not really a "perimeter" player either. He's a terrific mid-range player who gets set up coming off screens and curls. And occasionally posting up.But fundamentally he's a catch and shoot player, not a guy you want putting the ball on the floor much or holding the ball much.

Noc is more of a sweet-shooting 3, but of course if you've got Wallace, Deng and Gasol, you don't have Noc on the court. You need two guards to service that lineup and Noc, while I love him, ain't that guy.

That really leaves one other perimeter guy. Hinrich. He's a quality guard who distributes to other players and a quality, if streaky shooter. But importantly, he absolutely is not a guy who creates offense for himself the way Gordon does. He really doesn't create offense for anyone else the way Gordon does either (by that, I mean opening things up for teammates by virtue of scaring opposing offenses and/or doing something nifty outside the play). He creates for others within the scheme of the offense, and that's a good thing, don't get me wrong. But it's absolutely not what Gordon does.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

I think Deng and Gordon for Gasol is a more than fair asking price for West to make.

There is a premium for productive big men. Gasol is an all-star level power forward type. 

Its a more than fair price. I'm tempted to make that deal and try to land a SG. That's a position that easier to fill.

Best case, what does Ben Gordon project to? Jason Terry? AI? I like both Gordon and Deng, but Gasol/Wallace would be a true competitive advantage over nearly every team we face. We have a competent 3 in Nocioni and a solid combo guard in Hinrich. It’s a helluva lot easier to land a solid guard than an all-star, young PF.

The next step would be to turn Thabo, Tyrus and the pick swap into a STUD guard. One would think that PP or Allen could be had for something like that…. If we could make a deal where the salaries match up.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> It's tough to have a team starting Duhon and Wallace on offense. I'd take out Kirk, and I'm still kind of reluctant to do that deal. Thats 3 lottery picks.


We're starting Wallace and PJ Brown right now, which is WORSE!

The old Boerwinkle Bulls started Boerwinkle and Van Lier and it worked just fine. Van Lier wasn't a shooter/scorer, but did a lot of things similar to Duhon - defense, pure PG, ran the offense.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> I think Deng and Gordon for Gasol is a more than fair asking price for West to make.
> 
> There is a premium for productive big men. Gasol is an all-star level power forward type.
> 
> ...


I think you're overdoing it a bit buddy, seriously

And...

Thabo, Tyrus and the pick? wow...you're definintely drinking that kool-aid.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

*What should we make of this? *

http://grizzlies.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/880608174/m/1251094381

Trade Nearly Completed? Is it Legit? PJ, Deng, Duhon for Gasol and Cardinal

It works under Trade checker. I doubt we can get Hakim Warrick thrown in the deal, but I'm very content with this deal, especially if the pick is not included. A Memphis Fan on RealGM has stated this deal on the Bulls board there, and I do not know where he/she got their source, but I'm liking what I'm hearing. Thabo will be asked to produce, and his development will be accelerated. I would rather try to get Stoudamire than Cardinal, but you gotta take something if we are not giving up two core players or the pick.

I'm hoping this works out.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Warrick is scoring 12.4 PPG on 51% shooting in 12 minutes less a game than Deng. Seems to me he can immediately step in and play and help us a lot.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

i'll agree paxson should not give in to the deal being offered ....but if he were able to swing gasol and a pure 2 way playing pg or a 2 guard on his rook deal who plays defense so kirk can go back to defending pg's ...of which the grizz have none i would say do it ....


if he were to lets say swing pietrus from g.s. (with the grizz sending them warrick and something else like lowry or a future pick) and getting gasol , i think i would be in favor of the deal.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> *What should we make of this? *
> 
> http://grizzlies.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/880608174/m/1251094381
> 
> ...


Luol is a good player, but I'm all over this deal if it goes through. Oh, and I'm sure this deal would include the pick. I would hope we would be able to top 1 or 2 protect it.

Let's hope this goes through soon. There have got to be a lot of teams out there that would like to get their hands on Gasol.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

I would do Duhon, Brown, Deng and the Knicks pick for Gasol in a heartbeat.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Yeah I would do the deal instantly with the NYK included, but a little part of me is hoping it isn't. If the NYK pick is included, I'm hoping we can replace Cardinal with Stoudamire or at least get Hakim Warrick if we are getting Cardinal. Hell, I'll take Stro before Cardinal.

Edit: What do you guys think? Think its a legit source? Will it happen? Guy doesn't have too many posts, but may have signed up just to inform people.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

If that's the deal, we have to go ahead and make that move.

G Hinrich
G Gordon / Sefolosha
F Nocioni / Khyrapa / Cardinal
F Gasol / Thomas
C Wallace

I'd definitely be trying to make TT a SF if we did make this deal.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

The ROY said:


> If that's the deal, we have to go ahead and make that move.
> 
> G Hinrich
> G Gordon / Sefolosha
> ...


I'd want TT to be a Marion clone.

I'm really hoping this is the deal. It would be robbery if the NYK pick isn't included. There is no mention of it in the Memphis thread, but I have to think it is involved, maybe top 3 protected. We would be the next freakin dynasty if that pick somehow ended up being top 2 and we still had it's rights.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> If that's the deal, we have to go ahead and make that move.
> 
> G Hinrich
> G Gordon / Sefolosha
> ...



admit it that is a pretty formadable lineup isnt it?


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

rainman said:


> admit it that is a pretty formadable lineup isnt it?



Scary thing is, aside from Wallace, those guys are YOUNG.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

rainman said:


> admit it that is a pretty formadable lineup isnt it?


If Gordon isn't involved, I'm all over it...

That team should be able to take the east...


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> If Gordon isn't involved, I'm all over it...
> 
> That team should be able to take the east...


agree.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

The Knicks pick could still land us a good player. I can't believe so many people are willing to junk it since it's not looking good for the Oden/Durant sweepstakes. 

Who cares. As it stands right now, the pick is 10th. If we want a big man, that pick could be Horford, Yi, or Splitter. If Yi turns out any good that would be HUGE for Chicago. We could also use another scorer in the backcourt, and that could easily become Rudy Fernandez, Bellinini or a number of other wing players since the top of the draft looks big-man heavy. The 10th pick in the 2007 draft is still a huge asset to have. Even if it falls between 10-15 we could still land a very good player. Or move up for someone that unexpectedly takes a fall.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

Deng, Duhon, PJ for Gasol & Cardinal seems too good to be true. I'd be all over that. If we're including the Knicks pick it better have _some_ protection on it, if not then we'd better be getting Warrick back at least.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

SALO said:


> The Knicks pick could still land us a good player. I can't believe so many people are willing to junk it since it's not looking good for the Oden/Durant sweepstakes.
> 
> Who cares. As it stands right now, the pick is 10th. If we want a big man, that pick could be Horford, Yi, or Splitter. If Yi turns out any good that would be HUGE for Chicago. We could also use another scorer in the backcourt, and that could easily become Rudy Fernandez, Bellinini or a number of other wing players since the top of the draft looks big-man heavy. The 10th pick in the 2007 draft is still a huge asset to have. Even if it falls between 10-15 we could still land a very good player. Or move up for someone that unexpectedly takes a fall.



The point is you would be going for the championship in the next 2 or 3 years. By drafting some of the players you mentioned its a longer term process. I guess if you want to be a perenial bridesmaid stand pat.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

MikeDC said:


> That's because those 3 "perimeter guys" are either not perimeter guys or are fundamentally different types of players than Gordon, or both.
> 
> Deng fundamentally cannot create a shot for himself. He's not really a "perimeter" player either. He's a terrific mid-range player who gets set up coming off screens and curls. And occasionally posting up.But fundamentally he's a catch and shoot player, not a guy you want putting the ball on the floor much or holding the ball much.
> 
> ...


None of our guys are Gordon clones. Agreed. 

But we have several very good players who somewhat provide a lot of what Gordon does. Are they the exact same type of perimeter threat? No. But they are perimeter threats. 

Conversely, we have exactly ZERO players that provide what Gasol does. In any variation on the theme. A big fat zero.

Its absolutely laughable to say that trading Gordon for a scoring 4 would simply inverse the one dimensional scoring nature of the team. 

Its obvious the vast majority of you guys prefer a very good shooting guard on an already perimeter oriented team. That's fine. Gordon is awesome. I love him. I understand your reluctance.

Me? I'd rather add the 26 year old, recent allstar, world champioships MVP, scoring power forward and sacrifice one of those perimeter guys. Any one of them. Including Gordon. And Gordon, in my opinion, is what it will take.

And that ain't a talking point.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

SALO said:


> The Knicks pick could still land us a good player. I can't believe so many people are willing to junk it since it's not looking good for the Oden/Durant sweepstakes.
> 
> Who cares. As it stands right now, the pick is 10th. If we want a big man, that pick could be Horford, Yi, or Splitter. If Yi turns out any good that would be HUGE for Chicago. We could also use another scorer in the backcourt, and that could easily become Rudy Fernandez, Bellinini or a number of other wing players since the top of the draft looks big-man heavy. The 10th pick in the 2007 draft is still a huge asset to have. Even if it falls between 10-15 we could still land a very good player. Or move up for someone that unexpectedly takes a fall.


I SERIOUSLY doubt this deal goes down with West getting that pick.


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## ballerkingn (Nov 17, 2006)

hay what about settling for just just warrick,inserting him into the starting pf spot for p.j and have 2 of the most atheletic pf/sf in the game in both warrick and Ty thomas.I would try a sweet's and duhon deal for warrick or sweet's straight up or duhon stright up.

I don't know about you but i'm high on warrick,and have been and feel that if for some reason gasol asking price is too high,then i think we should then move to get warrick who is a low post threat and great reb,just need's a chance.Remember when gasol was out he was thier main inside option and he produced.I he's a great option without giving up our core player's and also allowing us to resign everyone,plus keep our draft pick's,and get a low post player.

Just a thought.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

Man the more I think about it, I feel like we'd be the favorites to come out of the East. Our main competition seems to be Detroit/Cleveland, here's how we'd stack up against their frontcourts...

Detroit: Webber vs Big Ben & Rasheed vs Gasol. I think Big Ben would destroy this broken-down version of Webber. Gasol would hold his own against Rasheed, probably even win it outright with the way Rasheed's been playing lately.

Cleveland: Big Z vs Gasol & Wallace vs Gooden. Wouldn't it be nice not having to see Wallace trying to guard someone 7'3" or having old man PJ trying to keep up with Gooden? Again, I like our chances here. 

Dwight Howard would still give us problems for sure but he'd give every team problems. We'd handle Miami I think, especially with the revenge factor working in our favor.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Do you guys think the deal advertised on the Memphis board is legit? It seems too good to be true, IMO. I think its a great deal. Noce and VK can play the SF role. If we do this deal with keeping the pick, then I dunno how John Paxson pulls it off. We give up one TRUE asset. While I think Duhon is better than a lot of other 'role' playing PGs, they are a lot easier to find. 

I just want to wake up tomorrow and see this as breaking news on ESPN.com


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

ballerkingn said:


> hay what about settling for just just warrick,inserting him into the starting pf spot for p.j and have 2 of the most atheletic pf/sf in the game in both warrick and Ty thomas.I would try a sweet's and duhon deal for warrick or sweet's straight up or duhon stright up.
> 
> I don't know about you but i'm high on warrick,and have been and feel that if for some reason gasol asking price is too high,then i think we should then move to get warrick who is a low post threat and great reb,just need's a chance.Remember when gasol was out he was thier main inside option and he produced.I he's a great option without giving up our core player's and also allowing us to resign everyone,plus keep our draft pick's,and get a low post player.
> 
> Just a thought.


I totally agree. We should find out away to steal Hakim Warrick. Hakim and Tyrus would be way to athletic for other front courts. Plus he could be a valuable asset to trade down the road.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

SALO said:


> Man the more I think about it, I feel like we'd be the favorites to come out of the East. Our main competition seems to be Detroit/Cleveland, here's how we'd stack up against their frontcourts...


what is there to think about? we'd DEFININTELY be the favorites to come out of the east.

Detriot looks like a 1 and done team...Cleveland still has a flawed roster..

our only competition is a healthy shaq and heat team...


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> I think Deng and Gordon for Gasol is a more than fair asking price for West to make.
> 
> There is a premium for productive big men. Gasol is an all-star level power forward type.
> 
> ...


This is my thinking, too, but I'm more scared about whether the Bulls can acquire one of those wings and how long that wing would be good. Obviously, guards on the level of Ricky Davis or Corey Maggette are not good enough. They've been paired up with comparable big men in Brand and Garnett and done nothing. 

Paul Pierce and Ray Allen are the only 2 get-able guards that would make the Gasol deal worthwhile. 2 players in the entire league. But Pierce and Allen are old and maybe slightly past their prime. 3 years from now, they will have lost athleticism and the title hopes will be dead. Hinrich-Pierce-Nocioni-Gasol-Wallace looks amazing on paper, but I'm not sure that team is better than Dallas, Phoenix, or San Antonio. 

I think I'd rather have a slightly longer title window to outlast the current top dogs... guys like Nash, Terry, Duncan, Ginobli, Dampier, etc. are going to start declining soon. San Antonio already looks old. If that means we peak with Lebron and Dwight Howard in the way, so be it. The collective talent of those teams currently does not scare me. I'm not worried about Wallace declining because I think Tyrus will eventually play the same role and do the same things.

I'd rather hold out for a Deng/Pick/Brown deal. If it doesn't work out, then the Bulls can reevaluate in the summer.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

This is why i love the Bulls board. 140 responses to a Peter Vescey rumor.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

rwj333 said:


> This is my thinking, too, but I'm more scared about whether the Bulls can acquire one of those wings and how long that wing would be good. Obviously, guards on the level of Ricky Davis or Corey Maggette are not good enough. They've been paired up with comparable big men in Brand and Garnett and done nothing.
> 
> Paul Pierce and Ray Allen are the only 2 get-able guards that would make the Gasol deal worthwhile. 2 players in the entire league. But Pierce and Allen are old and maybe slightly past their prime. 3 years from now, they will have lost athleticism and the title hopes will be dead. Hinrich-Pierce-Nocioni-Gasol-Wallace looks amazing on paper, but I'm not sure that team is better than Dallas, Phoenix, or San Antonio.
> 
> ...


Pierce isnt gettable at all...ainge repeatedly states that the whole team is touchable EXCEPT for him..u don't pay a guy that much money to trade him..

u can get allen, but not pierce


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

Ron Cey said:


> Its obvious the vast majority of you guys prefer a very good shooting guard on an already perimeter oriented team. That's fine. Gordon is awesome. I love him. I understand your reluctance.


Thats a totally unfair way to frame the argument. I don't think any of us are saying we prefer Gordon to Gasol, we're saying we believe you need both those guys to go all the way. 

If we trade for Gasol, we'll most likely have gotten rid of PJ and the NY pick along with him. Any realistic avenues for gaining a perimeter scorer of the caliber I believe you need to go along with Gasol. At least if we keep Gordon, we do still have some avenues to find a scoring 4 in PJ's expiring deal, the NY pick, Tyrus, and Nocioni or Deng. Our avenues to fill the hole at the for a stud 4 while keeping Gordon>than our avenues to fill the shooting/scoring/clutch shooting void on the perimeter after getting Gasol.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

I'm not sure its worth going into win-now mode just for the sake of winning this season. Is this all motivated by the signing of Wallace? Why not wait the season out and hold on to the slim chance that the Bulls get a pick that can land a true franchise player like Oden or Durant instead of forfiting that opportunity as well as a 21 year old player averaging near allstar numbers for a 26 year old second tier star? Its not like the Bulls will be prohibited from making a trade during this offseason after discovering whether or not they land a potential superstar via the draft.

Deng is 5 years younger than Gasol and has not reached his peak. Exchanging Deng for Gasol is essentially like trading 8 years or so of borderline allstar bigman play for 13 seasons of borderline or even consistant allstar small forward play. Perhaps the scarcities at bigman position compensate for the descrepencies in expected carear length, but I cannot fathom giving up Deng + for five fewer seasons of Gasol.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

Gasol could probably average 8-9 rpg in *38* mpg. His RbR is similar to that of the Juwan Howard's, so don't expect an automatic double double. What about Deng, Tyrus and a pick for Gasol?


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> I'm not sure its worth going into win-now mode just for the sake of winning this season. Is this all motivated by the signing of Wallace? Why not wait the season out and hold on to the slim chance that the Bulls get a pick that can land a true franchise player like Oden or Durant instead of forfiting that opportunity as well as a 21 year old player averaging near allstar numbers for a 26 year old second tier star? Its not like the Bulls will be prohibited from making a trade during this offseason after discovering whether or not they land a potential superstar via the draft.
> 
> Deng is 5 years younger than Gasol and has not reached his peak. Exchanging Deng for Gasol is essentially like trading 8 years or so of borderline allstar bigman play for 13 seasons of borderline or even consistant allstar small forward play. Perhaps the scarcities at bigman position compensate for the descrepencies in expected carear length, but I cannot fathom giving up Deng + for five fewer seasons of Gasol.


I think you're underestimating Gasol, he would no doubt play better in Chicago because he would have Ben Wallace to help on the defensive end and on the offensive glass. To me the key is the pick, even if it has #1 protection i think West would do the deal.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Mr. Predictable said:


> Gasol could probably average 8-9 rpg in *38* mpg. His RbR is similar to that of the Juwan Howard's, so don't expect an automatic double double. What about Deng, Tyrus and a pick for Gasol?


might as well go for garnett if you're gonna trade that many assets


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

TripleDouble said:


> I'm not sure its worth going into win-now mode just for the sake of winning this season. Is this all motivated by the signing of Wallace? Why not wait the season out and hold on to the slim chance that the Bulls get a pick that can land a true franchise player like Oden or Durant instead of forfiting that opportunity as well as a 21 year old player averaging near allstar numbers for a 26 year old second tier star? Its not like the Bulls will be prohibited from making a trade during this offseason after discovering whether or not they land a potential superstar via the draft.
> 
> Deng is 5 years younger than Gasol and has not reached his peak. Exchanging Deng for Gasol is essentially like trading 8 years or so of borderline allstar bigman play for 13 seasons of borderline or even consistant allstar small forward play. Perhaps the scarcities at bigman position compensate for the descrepencies in expected carear length, but I cannot fathom giving up Deng + for five fewer seasons of Gasol.


We're not getting Oden or Durant. Might as well let that go.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Don't want to burst the bubble, but the word is that the guy who made the post stating the trade was almost completed was making its first post on that board. This doesn't mean that it's not true, but it's much more likely that the guy is pulling everyone's chain.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

The ROY said:


> We're not getting Oden or Durant. Might as well let that go.


Correction. We're not likely to get Oden or Durant. I doubt the Knicks make the playoffs.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Don't want to burst the bubble, but the word is that the guy who made the post stating the trade was almost completed was making its first post on that board. This doesn't mean that it's not true, but it's much more likely that the guy is pulling everyone's chain.



You have to think there is something there though. Chicago has that coveted pick, have the assets to do a deal(and i think the desire)and Gasol has pretty much burnt his bridges there, i think he'll be going somewhere hopefully to a team like the Bulls who i think can get to the finals.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Don't want to burst the bubble, but the word is that the guy who made the post stating the trade was almost completed was making its first post on that board. This doesn't mean that it's not true, but it's much more likely that the guy is pulling everyone's chain.


Yeah, the deal as reported (no pick involved) is too good to be true. Hopefully he found out about the deal and felt compelled to sign up and 'break' the story before anyone else.


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## RSP83 (Nov 24, 2002)

Bottomline, if this trade really happens, and Gordon is a part of it, I'd be pretty mad at Pax. Gordon is the heart and soul of the team.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

rainman said:


> You have to think there is something there though. Chicago has that coveted pick, have the assets to do a deal(and i think the desire)and Gasol has pretty much burnt his bridges there, i think he'll be going somewhere hopefully to a team like the Bulls who i think can get to the finals.


Vescey's article stands, as does the previous article (don't remember the source) in which it is established that we've made a play for Garnett and Memphis has received offers for Gasol. I'm sure we're interested. We're an obvious candidate for Memphis: we're in the East, we have good young players on their rookie deals, and we have a large expiring contract. We're a nearly ideal trading partner.

But none of that means this guy who said the deal is almost done is telling the truth, much as I wish it was the truth.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

So I'll go ahead and admit that I am disgusted by the fact that in 11 pages, I'm more or less the only one to express any reluctance about trading Lu Deng. This board, Bulls fans, and NBA fans are notoriously fickle. Admitedly, with Noc on board, Deng is somewhat more expendable than Gordon in the short term. However, there's a strong argumement to be made that he's been the best player on the team this season and will be the best player in the roster in the long term considering his age. Apparently people are blind to this fact simply because Gordon has been outstanding over the past month. 

Honestly it's not a shock. Everyone hated on Gordon and referred to Deng as the team's best player early in the season. Everyone suggested Hinrich trade proposals because he slumped for a couple weeks. Everyong wanted to fire Skiles, one of the most successful coaches in the NBA the past couple seasons during headbandgate and then because we had a rough week when no one player could be blamed. My advice is simply to take a deep breath. 

I'm not saying Deng's inclusion in a Gasol trade should be a deal breaker, but since he will be a better player than Gasol in a year or two it should at least give everyone pause. The amount of emphasis being placed on position right now is extreme. That doesn't mean it's wrong but people should be highly reluctant to knowingly give up more talent in a trade purely because Gasol plays PF and has a back to the basket game. The trade reported on the Memphis board is not unreasonable although there is substantial risk involved. Frankly I think the people clamoring to include the Knicks' pick or TT in addition to Deng have an unhealthy obsession with the ever illusive low post scorer and have lost their minds.

Also, people (K4E in particular) are casually stating that certain deals are advisable because they shift the team into win now mode without offering any reason why win now mode is desirable. The goal is to win a championship and moreso to win as many championships as possible. An argument should at least be presented why "win now" furthers that goal moreso than retaining a roster positioned to reach the conference finals and quite possibly the finals this season and improve vastly in the next season or two.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> We're starting Wallace and PJ Brown right now, which is WORSE!


I think that should be "which is WORSE?!?" 

And to answer the question, it's better if you're forced to play 3 on 5, to have one of those 3 be a guy who can bring up the ball and generally be guaranteed to get it in a way he can pose a threat.

By virtue of having that you somewhat negate the ability of the other team to stop your offense.



> The old Boerwinkle Bulls started Boerwinkle and Van Lier and it worked just fine. Van Lier wasn't a shooter/scorer, but did a lot of things similar to Duhon - defense, pure PG, ran the offense.


Obviously a little vintage for me to have seen those guys, but didn't they also start Bob Love and Chet Walker? Those guys at least merit hall of fame consideration. Van Lier, at least statistically, seems to have been a notch above Duhon. 

Since I never saw those guys play, I can't make a real comparison I guess, but I do know that they never won a championship. In fact they never even made it out of the East. To me, that's not "just fine". I want these guys to win something.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

I don't think ANY of us wanna let go of Deng but if it comes to Deng or Gasol (which this is essentially), then I'll have to take Gasol.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Babble-On said:


> Thats a totally unfair way to frame the argument. I don't think any of us are saying we prefer Gordon to Gasol, we're saying we believe you need both those guys to go all the way.
> 
> If we trade for Gasol, we'll most likely have gotten rid of PJ and the NY pick along with him. Any realistic avenues for gaining a perimeter scorer of the caliber I believe you need to go along with Gasol. At least if we keep Gordon, we do still have some avenues to find a scoring 4 in PJ's expiring deal, the NY pick, Tyrus, and Nocioni or Deng. Our avenues to fill the hole at the for a stud 4 while keeping Gordon>than our avenues to fill the shooting/scoring/clutch shooting void on the perimeter after getting Gasol.


I think your posts are excellent. But I don't think I've unfairly characterized the general reluctance to trade Gordon as the centerpiece for Gasol.

Saying "no" IS choosing Gordon over Gasol for the Bulls. How can it be anything but? I understand why a lot of you feel that way. I just don't happen to agree.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> So I'll go ahead and admit that I am disgusted by the fact that in 11 pages, I'm more or less the only one to express any reluctance about trading Lu Deng. This board, Bulls fans, and NBA fans are notoriously fickle. Admitedly, with Noc on board, Deng is somewhat more expendable than Gordon in the short term. However, there's a strong argumement to be made that he's been the best player on the team this season and will be the best player in the roster in the long term considering his age. Apparently people are blind to this fact simply because Gordon has been outstanding over the past month.
> 
> Honestly it's not a shock. Everyone hated on Gordon and referred to Deng as the team's best player early in the season. Everyone suggested Hinrich trade proposals because he slumped for a couple weeks. Everyong wanted to fire Skiles, one of the most successful coaches in the NBA the past couple seasons during headbandgate and then because we had a rough week when no one player could be blamed. My advice is simply to take a deep breath.
> 
> ...


I think when you sunk 14 million into a 32 year old Ben Wallace you pretty much said you wanted to win now. I think this deal probably leapfrogs the Bulls over anyone in the east and most in the west.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> So I'll go ahead and admit that I am disgusted by the fact that in 11 pages, I'm more or less the only one to express any reluctance about trading Lu Deng. This board, Bulls fans, and NBA fans are notoriously fickle. Admitedly, with Noc on board, Deng is somewhat more expendable than Gordon in the short term. However, there's a strong argumement to be made that he's been the best player on the team this season and will be the best player in the roster in the long term considering his age. Apparently people are blind to this fact simply because Gordon has been outstanding over the past month.
> 
> Honestly it's not a shock. Everyone hated on Gordon and referred to Deng as the team's best player early in the season. Everyone suggested Hinrich trade proposals because he slumped for a couple weeks. Everyong wanted to fire Skiles, one of the most successful coaches in the NBA the past couple seasons during headbandgate and then because we had a rough week when no one player could be blamed. My advice is simply to take a deep breath.
> 
> ...



I couldn't disagree more with the bolded part. Deng plays a position that the Bulls are stacked at. His athleticism is a huge limiting factor. 

Gasol will be able to guard bigger players. Gasol will let Wallace and Thomas roam, make fantastic defensive plays, and grab key rebounds. Deng can't do that.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

JeremyB0001 said:


> So I'll go ahead and admit that I am disgusted by the fact that in 11 pages, I'm more or less the only one to express any reluctance about trading Lu Deng.


You are NOT going to find a bigger fan of Luol Deng than me. You just aren't. 

But I "root for the laundry" as some so sarcastically put it. I'm a Bulls fan. The team. To me, the players themselves are pieces on a chess board. If one can be moved in such a way so as to enhance the team's ability to capture the king, then I'm all for it. 

Deng - though I do consider him to be the better prospect than Gordon for the long term as a general matter - is not so much better a prospect that team depth at his position can be ignored. 

Conversely, as has been rightly pointed out in this thread in opposition to my willingness to trade Gordon for Gasol, Gordon's skills are more unique to the Bulls. 

Its a question of balance. Deng is the preferable player to move because he is more easily replaced depth-wise and because it would yield greater roster balance following the acquisition of Gasol. 

But I think it would take nothing short of a miracle to convince Jerry West that the centerpiece for a Gasol trade should be a small forward he doesn't need. Its silly, frankly. If Pax can do it, he's a magician. 

Out of Deng, Hinrich, and Gordon, Gordon is the last I'd be willing to include. But I would include him. Pieces on a chess board. Its about the team, not the players.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> I think that should be "which is WORSE?!?"
> 
> And to answer the question, it's better if you're forced to play 3 on 5, to have one of those 3 be a guy who can bring up the ball and generally be guaranteed to get it in a way he can pose a threat.
> 
> ...


I did see 'em play. They were really 2 on 5 because sloan wasn't exactly a scorer. Let me qualify that. He scored points, but mainly by virtue of being on the court so much. A scorer in the same sense that Hinrich is a scorer - not in the sense that Gordon or Deng are.

Love and Walker were on the tiny side for forwards, but boy could they score. But I'm not so sure that Gordon and Noc and Gasol would be any less capable of carrying the brunt of the scoring load.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

Bottom line, Paxson is not giving up both Gordon and Deng. Not in a million years. 
Ultimtely it will probably end up with something like:

Gordon
Duhon
Pick
Tyrus
PJ brown

for

Paul Gasol
Mike Miller or Hakim Warrick

Hopefully, we can retain either the pick or TT. I would hate to give up both.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> You are NOT going to find a bigger fan of Luol Deng than me. You just aren't.
> 
> But I "root for the laundry" as some so sarcastically put it. I'm a Bulls fan. The team. To me, the players themselves are pieces on a chess board. If one can be moved in such a way so as to enhance the team's ability to capture the king, then I'm all for it.
> 
> ...


I am a gordon fan, and I would include him in a trade, depending on who we were getting back. For Iverson, when we dicussed the possibility a few weeks ago, i'd have done it. For Gasol, I wouldn't.

Most people who don't want to give up Gordon in this deal are looking at the TEAM and seeing it's not worthwhile to have Gasol without Gordon to provide the inside/outside scoring tandem. Hinrich is OK, but not good enough to replace Gordon in that role.

Besides, we need the "2 Gs" carrot on the stick to keep us interested in the laundry.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Pieces on a chess board. Its about the team, not the players.


No doubt, I feel the same way.

The goal is to give the Bulls the best possible chance to win the NBA Championship, the sooner the better, with a future championship being less valuable than a present championship. 

The nice thing about this trade, is that for the first time, IMO, Paxson is making a big trade where we're getting the best player in return. Not some smoke n' mirrors argument about "the future," lotto balls, or lady luck smiling on us. And its not like Gasol is on the decline right now. He's at or near his peak, and should be for 3 or so more years. Sweet.

Its Paxson's 4th year on the job and we're still talking about "the future." Fine, if you are willing to accept that. As a Sox fan and Bears fan as well, I tend to be happiest when the teams I follow are making legit runs for the championship. 

The "upside" argument can be made forever. Just keep dumping your players for young players every few years. 

Its one thing to just dump solid young players for crap or for dreams for the future. Its another to turn down 26 year old all-star power forwards in exchange for solid small forwards and undersized yet dynamic shooting guards.

I'm not saying Gasol for Deng/Gordon would be a no-brainer by any stretch. The Bulls would have to acquire a really good guard via trade to make the "win now" argument with that team as well. Could be too risky a proposition. If winning a title this year or next year in contingent on some type of Ray Allen trade, then I'd be hesitant to do it. I've been a Deng fan since the first time I saw him play in his first UC pre-season game. He's a great, young player. I'm not sure that Deng will ever be as good a player as Pau Gasol. Its a few years out, no doubt.

Deng, Duhon, Brown and the pick would be a no brainier though, if the Bulls are trying to "win now." If they are thinking 3-4 years out, I'd still do it. Gasol is going to be really good still and I don't have a lot of faith in the Knicks imploding. They look decent.


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## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! (Jun 10, 2003)

Double Post


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## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! (Jun 10, 2003)

Sith said:


> Bottom line, Paxson is not giving up both Gordon and Deng. Not in a million years.
> Ultimtely it will probably end up with something like:
> 
> Gordon
> ...



I'm sorry, but that is an absoulte abomination of a trade, give up TT and the pick and Gordon (3 huge assets) for two soft players??? Hell no!
The only acceptable iteration:

Nocioni, Pick and contract filler for Gasol. Obviously, Gasol and Noc won't work straight up, that's why you thew them the Knicks pick, a lottery pick in the year to have a lottery pick. 

Anything else reeks of Jalen Rose redux, abominable trade, part deux...


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! said:


> Anything else reeks of Jalen Rose redux, abominable trade, part deux...



Do you think the Bulls would have been better off keeping Crazy Ron around?


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

rainman said:


> I think when you sunk 14 million into a 32 year old Ben Wallace you pretty much said you wanted to win now. I think this deal probably leapfrogs the Bulls over anyone in the east and most in the west.


I've never understood why that's the case. Assuming that there's no tradeoff between signing Wallace and resigning the core then how is not signing him "win later" and yet paying him money that's just lying around is "win now"? If resigning Wallace improves the team and the short term and does not trade off with the ability to win in the long term then it improves the odds of winning now yet does not even slightly _commit_ the Bulls to "win now".


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## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! (Jun 10, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> Do you think the Bulls would have been better off keeping Crazy Ron around?


I'm analyzing the trade, talent-wise, what the players bring to the table, basketball-wise.

I think Gasol is in the Rose mold, he'll get some points, but not much else. He's soft. Deng, Ben and TT appear to be battlers, competitive through and through.


If this trade goes through as described, I would add: Why oh why does this organization have no faith in its players???


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

rwj333 said:


> I couldn't disagree more with the bolded part. Deng plays a position that the Bulls are stacked at. His athleticism is a huge limiting factor.
> 
> Gasol will be able to guard bigger players. Gasol will let Wallace and Thomas roam, make fantastic defensive plays, and grab key rebounds. Deng can't do that.


The fact that he plays a position that is a team strength deals with how expendable he happens to be (I've conceeded that in light of the roster's current construction he is more expendable than Gordon) but not his value in the abstract. Athleticism is critical for success in the NBA, but elite athleticism is not necessarily a prerequisite to stardom. As I've been discussing with DaBullz in the TT thread, the odds favor substantial improvement from a player as young as Deng. Based on your comments I don't feel that you're necessarily disagreeing with me. Your arguments do not support that Gasol will be the better player in a vaccuum in the future, merely that he is more valuable to the Bulls given the current construction of the roster. I don't necessarily disagree with that premise, I just feel that it is risky to give up the more talented player to pursue a player who is a better fit. It seems that you simply feel the void filled by Gasol is glaring and a Deng for Gasol swap would therefore be justified.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Jeremy, I like Deng, but he is a player who gets his points from the system we run. I do not see him as a guy who can create his own shot. While I would like to retain Deng, I feel with the rest of our team, we can easily replace him than Gordon. I do think what Gasol brings to the table, at only being 26 years old, not 30 or so like KG is more valuable from a trade aspect.

If Deng had the ability of a TMac to create his own shot at will, I would not give him up. But his points seem to come from the flow of the offense. This is nice that he doesn't have to have plays drawn up for him, but it is also a limitation in that he is not a creator.

I will miss him if he is sent packing, but you gotta give something up to get something. I think Gordon and Gasol helps more than Deng and Gasol.

If we did not have Noce, I'd be very reluctant to give him up.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> You are NOT going to find a bigger fan of Luol Deng than me. You just aren't.
> 
> But I "root for the laundry" as some so sarcastically put it. I'm a Bulls fan. The team. To me, the players themselves are pieces on a chess board. If one can be moved in such a way so as to enhance the team's ability to capture the king, then I'm all for it.
> 
> ...


Excellent post. I'm at most slightly more reluctant to give up Gordon than Deng. Mostly, I'm just alarmed that people seem so eager to give up Deng. I'm not saying I'd refuse to part with either player, merely that I would do so through gritted teeth. Posters here are just a little too eager to do so for my taste. 

The obsession with adding a back to the basket scorer has troubled me for a long time. Balance is important - and Gasol certainly allows the roster to be used far more efficiently for the duration of the next season or two or five - but it is not a guarantee of success. It is quite difficult to find a championship team with ideal ballance and there is a laundry list of champions without a post scorer.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! said:


> If this trade goes through as described, I would add: Why oh why does this organization have no faith in its players???


They locked up Hinrich in a heartbeat. Paxson has faith in him.

Its a decent question. I just think that we're getting the better player in this one. We're not dumping players so we don't have to resign them and keeping our options open for "the future."

In a way though, it does help the Org out a little. If they were unsure about giving Deng and Gordon the big $$$ in the few years, they are off the hook from making that decision and instead have an all-star level big guy.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> Mostly, I'm just alarmed that people seem so eager to give up Deng.


I don't think anyone is eager to give up Deng.

Giving up Deng for a player like Gasol is a different story though.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! said:


> I'm analyzing the trade, talent-wise, what the players bring to the table, basketball-wise.
> 
> I think Gasol is in the Rose mold, he'll get some points, but not much else. He's soft. Deng, Ben and TT appear to be battlers, competitive through and through.
> 
> ...


Ask the Spanish national team if Gasol is soft and "Deng appears to be a battler", where do you get some of that stuff?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Its not like we're dumping Deng for a draft pick and some crap in this one.

Is Deng good enough to take over a poor team and make it a good one? Nah. Could Deng be an above average SF and the Griz still suck? Well, yah. He's not a guy that can turn around a NBA franchise. He's just a really good player that is above average at his position and that we know we can win with. 

Even with Deng though, best case, who does he project to be? An NBA first team member? An NBA second team member? I dunno about that.

Gasol is one of the best players in basketball, plays a position that is hard to find and is 26. He's better than Deng. I don't see Deng ever being able to produce as well as Gasol. 

If the argument is that at some point in the future Deng will be better than Gasol, yah, that’s likely true. Deng is a talented player and several years younger than Gasol. Deng will likely be at his peak when Gasol is declining with age.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Various things I've read/think:

* Memphis fans don't seem to happy with Gasol. those calling him a franchise players should consider the state of the Grizzlies.

* I think the Griz would be happy to lose, and we could afford to absorb a guy with a bad contract like Brian Cardinal or Stromile Swift.

* Gay has, defensively at least, played a fair amount of 2 for them. He guards the best wing player. He's got a pretty good handle too. 

* Warrick is a 3/4.

* Put those things together, and consider the fact that Miller is a) a 6th man of the year and b) has played some 1. What it looks like to me is that especially if we took back Cardinal, there's more than enough room for Deng there.

* The reality is the Grizzlies are going to have close to the most ping-pong balls in this lottery if they trade Gasol. This promises to be a very good draft too. Anyone else remember the look on Jerry West's face when he just missed getting Lebron?

West probably doen't want this porridge too hot or too cold. On one hand, he needs to get a productive young player back. Taking back a total project like Thomas, I think, and he's running a real long-term risk. That's Jerry Krause Bulls territory, and he won't go there.

But given the specialness of this draft, you gotta think he doesn't want to win too much this year either. I mean, he knows he's going to get somewhat worse, but what direction do you push in? I think he'd want to push in the direction of Oden and Durant.

That means taking Deng and not Gordon. Because Deng will be productive enough to be valuable, but he won't be quite enough to help a Memphis team that really needs a playmaker. Gordon is a playmaker, and thus would fit their short-term need and make them better in the short-run. A year from now, when they've signed a PG and Kyle Lowry comes back strong, they'll reap a full return from Deng and maybe they've got Oden or Durant or even Noah to boot. 

Given the nature of this draft and the Grizzlies' position, it's a real consideration, or it should be.

---------------

I think if a deal gets done, it's Deng, PJ, and change (maybe Duhon) for Gasol plus Cardinal or Swift. I'm guessing Cardinal because his contract is longer and because he's a hustle guy. I'd guess Pax and Skiles don't want Swift in the same area code as Tyrus Thomas.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> No doubt, I feel the same way.
> 
> The goal is to give the Bulls the best possible chance to win the NBA Championship, the sooner the better, with a future championship being less valuable than a present championship.
> 
> ...



First, if you believe the article that is the basis of this thread than it should be clear that the Bulls are not trading Deng AND Gordon for Gasol. Thats what the article says.

Second, holding on to proven younger talent is not making a "smoke 'n mirrors arguement about the 'future'."


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Guys, remember, WE DON'T NEED TO MAKE A TRADE.

I'd much rather take my chance in the draft of getting Oden then trade Gordon and Deng for Gasol.

Come on, we want guys like Gordon and Deng around to hit open jumpshots created by Gasol, not trade them.

Screw Gasol, he's not that good. There is a reason why the Bulls are better than the Grizzlies (even if Gasol wasn't injured to start the year), and thats because these guys are better than Gasol. Trade them away in this trade, Bulls are what, the 8th seed now?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> o proven younger talent is not making a "smoke 'n mirrors arguement about the 'future'."


Proven to do what?


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Proven to do what?


 Perform at a very high level in the NBA. What is your definition of "proven"?


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## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

The ROY said:


> We're not getting Oden or Durant. Might as well let that go.


I so wish the Knicks were terrible. Gasol and Oden or Gasol and Durant is my dream team. You don't need Deng if you have Durant with Noc and Tyrus still on the roster. As much as Deng has improved we have a logjam at this position. If you want Tyrus to play more, Deng or Noc has to go.

Gasol broght his game to another level this year. He just played differently adding new elements to his game such as his ability to see the court and pass and his defense has improved tremendously. 
I don't care so much for Warrick.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> Perform at a very high level in the NBA. What is your standard for "proven"?


Define "very high."

Gordon is enjoying his first season of being able to start on his team and is finally showing glimpses of being more than just a jump shooter.

Deng is an ultra efficient player when given the ball in the right situations.... and is long if unauthentic for his size/position and crashes the boards.

Damn solid players, no doubt.

Gasol has a PER of around 22 or higher the last 4 seasons. He’s been really good from a young age in this league.
He's been an all-star.
He's 7 foot tall, 26 years old and has shown that he can be the main man (not some guy off the bench) on a playoff team. Granted, that playoff team didn't advance. We'd be placing him next to Wallace, Nocioni and Hinrich at the very least. 

I doubt Deng or Gordon will ever be able to match his production, and they don't have his size. 

Gasol is a more valuable NBA player and will be for the considerable future.

That being said, it would be a very tough call if the price was Deng and Gordon.


Just to gauge how much you value Deng, would you trade Deng, Duhon, Brown and the pick for Gasol? Why or why not?


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> I don't think anyone is eager to give up Deng.
> 
> Giving up Deng for a player like Gasol is a different story though.


Maybe "eager" is a poor choice of words. What bothers me is the difference in attitudes regarding giving up Gordon and giving up Deng. As I've admitted, Deng is more expendable considering the current composition of the roster but I feel there's more to the disparity between posters' reluctance to part with the two than just that. Also, I'm not particularly enraptured with the NY pick at this point but I dislike peoples' willingness to add other assets (in addition to Duhon and the cap space afforded Brown's contract) into the mix.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

theanimal23 said:


> Jeremy, I like Deng, but he is a player who gets his points from the system we run. I do not see him as a guy who can create his own shot. While I would like to retain Deng, I feel with the rest of our team, we can easily replace him than Gordon. I do think what Gasol brings to the table, at only being 26 years old, not 30 or so like KG is more valuable from a trade aspect.
> 
> If Deng had the ability of a TMac to create his own shot at will, I would not give him up. But his points seem to come from the flow of the offense. This is nice that he doesn't have to have plays drawn up for him, but it is also a limitation in that he is not a creator.
> 
> ...


Good post. I won't disagree that Deng does not create his own shot but I think he would score points in the flow of any offense, not just the Bulls' and his efficiency is off the charts.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> Maybe "eager" is a poor choice of words. What bothers me is the difference in attitudes regarding giving up Gordon and giving up Deng. As I've admitted, Deng is more expendable considering the current composition of the roster but I feel there's more to the disparity between posters' reluctance to part with the two than just that. Also, I'm not particularly enraptured with the NY pick at this point but I dislike peoples' willingness to add other assets (in addition to Duhon and the cap space afforded Brown's contract) into the mix.


Maybe people are more comfortable with Nocioni filling in for Deng than they are Duhon filling in for Gordon.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Maybe people are more comfortable with Nocioni filling in for Deng than they are Duhon filling in for Gordon.


That's pretty much it for me as well.

If Nocioni was not around and in his place a Nocioni level guard, I'd likely have a different attitude.

The reason I often find myself including Deng is that I consider him our best player (although Gordon is catching up rapidly) and that he’s young. He would seem like an attractive player for a team looking to dump a star for young players. But, he may not be the best fit for the Griz, as many have said here.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Actually, we're not only comfortable with Noc filling in at SF, but Tyrus Thomas & Viktor Khyrapa also.

With Pau here, the SF spot is TT's though


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

There's one trade that's obvious.

Gasol for Jermaine O'Neal.

They both need a change of scenery, and the locker room in Bird's scheme of thing is more white.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> Is Deng good enough to take over a poor team and make it a good one? Nah. Could Deng be an above average SF and the Griz still suck? Well, yah. He's not a guy that can turn around a NBA franchise. He's just a really good player that is above average at his position and that we know we can win with.
> 
> Even with Deng though, best case, who does he project to be? An NBA first team member? An NBA second team member? I dunno about that.
> 
> ...


Deng is not a guy who can turn around a franchise (at this point) but I would limit that category to five or ten players and Gasol is not one of them. Gasol has been around a 22 PER the last few seasons but Deng and Gordon are both at 19 this season so we're not talking about a cavernous gap. I agree with you as far as your last paragraph. Part of me believes the Bulls are better off managing the roster so that the core peaks at a similar time as opposed to balancing "win now" and "win later" at the same time.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> There's one trade that's obvious.
> 
> Gasol for Jermaine O'Neal.


O'Neal has an ETO after next season, I don't think West wants to ship Gasol off and not have anything to show for it in the future.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Define "very high."
> 
> Gordon is enjoying his first season of being able to start on his team and is finally showing glimpses of being more than just a jump shooter.
> 
> ...



Gasol is the best out of those three players by a decent margin, but I'm not sure that will be the case in the next few seasons. Deng is not nearly in his prime whereas Gasol is so its to expect Deng to improve over the next five or so seasons. I think Deng will end up as a 20-22 point 8 rebound guy in his prime with good, not great defense. Gasol may be more valuable than that given his size, but when considering age, I'm not sure there will be a difference in player value over the remaineder of their career. Because of this, I think throwing in a pick plus a solid backup PG with Deng to get Gasol is too much. Swap Nocioni in for Deng and take back Staudamire's contract and I'd do it, but I'm not sure Memphis would.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> Maybe people are more comfortable with Nocioni filling in for Deng than they are Duhon filling in for Gordon.


You can certainly put me in the camp. That's just not the vibe I'm getting from everyone else. Maybe I'm mistaken.


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

I think it's about time we all get used to the fact that we're going to lose Luol Deng. And it will suck for a bit.

And then it won't when Pau takes the court. Luol is an awesome player, only 21, English, funny looking, and a joy to watch play. But Pau is better. And in spite of Deng's abilities, he's made expendable because of the depth at his position in Nocioni, Khryapa, Tyrus a bit, Thabo, Griffin if we have to, and maybe if Memphis throws one at us. 

That's the way it is. Memphis won't likely get more out of any deal than Deng and salary filler (PJ and Sweet knees). And nor should they. Pau's good, but so's Deng. And Deng is 21. If they think they're getting a better prospect than Deng, then they're wrong. 

Deng, PJ and Sweetney as salary filler, and maybe Thabo, for Gasol, Warrick (whom they are really down on due to his terrible defense), and Tarence Kinsey (roster filler). 



Us afterwards: 

PG - Hinrich, Duhon, Barrett 
SG - Gordon, Hinrich, Griffin 
SF - Nocioni, Khryapa, Kinsey (probably cut) 
PF - Gasol, Thomas, Warrick 
C - Wallace, Gasol, Allen, Andriuskevicius 

Since Griffin is best at small forward, and Tyrus can play there, and the three guard set sometimes gets an airing, Kinsey probably gets cut, leaving two roster spots with which to get some shooting guard and big man insurance. 


Them afterwards: 

PG - Stoudamire, Atkins, Lowry 
SG - E Jones (if he's not cut, which he will be), D Jones, Miller 
SF - Miller, Gay, Tarbs 
PF - Deng, Sweetney, Johnson, Cardinal 
C - Swift, Roberts, Sackasheetis 


Or take out Thabo and Warrick, whatever. I only put him in because Memphis apparently isn't adverse to dealing him.

That gives Memphis a good foundation of Lowry, Gay, Deng, Roberts and their pick, some decent youngsters in Thabo/Warrick, Sweetney and Dahntay, with about $35 million coming off their salary figure this offseason (Jones, Jones, Brown, Sweetney, Atkins, Tsakalidis), and a lot of parts already in place for their future front line. They'd have to start the backcourt again, but they'd have many assets with which to do that.

They might prefer it if we helped relieve them of Brian Cardinal, but I'm not sure how possible that is. Then again, I haven't really looked.




(By the way, if we get Pau, I never, ever, ever, ever want to hear about the bloody Chandler trade again.)


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> You can certainly put me in the camp. That's just not the vibe I'm getting from everyone else. Maybe I'm mistaken.


The vibe I'm getting is people like the idea of Gasol filling our biggest need, but they're absolutely against giving up Deng and Gordon. They're realistic enough to acknowledge that one has to be given up in a deal.

After fully reading Vecsey's article, i get the sense that Gordon+Deng was quickly dismissed, and both teams are willing to discuss one or the other in a deal.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Maybe people are more comfortable with Nocioni filling in for Deng than they are Duhon filling in for Gordon.


Yup. Add to it the fact that Gordon quality guards are harder to find and take longer to develop than good SFs.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Yup. Add to it the fact that Gordon quality guards are harder to find and take longer to develop than good SFs.


Gordon quality guards don't develop. They start out really good (6th man award) and get better from there


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

I'm not sure I would even CONSIDER trading Ben Gordon for Pau Gasol, let alone throw Luol Deng into the mix as well.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

MikeDC said:


> Yup. Add to it the fact that Gordon quality guards are harder to find and take longer to develop than good SFs.


I guess I'll go ahead and disagree with you there. Gordon has been unconscious for the last month. If he continues to play at that level I suppose I'd change my tune. However, as of right now Deng has still be the more efficient player despite Gordon's surge. Perhaps Gordon has demonstrated the ability to play the point this season but Hinrich is signed to a long term deal and as valuable as Gordon's scoring happens to be at this point he's still an undersized 2 with an overall game that is average at best. The fact that Deng currently has a better chance to make the All-Star squad belies your SG v. SF depth to some extent. Right now he's even or ahead of Jefferson and Butler which doesn't leave too many players ahead of him at the 3 position.


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

If we traded Gordon for Gasol, we're left with an equally flawed roster, just in a different way. I can't imagine for a minute that this applies to Deng or Nocioni, despite their abilities and how much we like them.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

MikeDC said:


> Various things I've read/think:
> 
> * Memphis fans don't seem to happy with Gasol. those calling him a franchise players should consider the state of the Grizzlies.
> 
> ...


From your lips to God's ears.

Interesting post.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Sham said:


> If we traded Gordon for Gasol, we're left with an equally flawed roster, just in a different way. I can't imagine for a minute that this applies to Deng or Nocioni, despite their abilities and how much we like them.


Trading both Gordon and Deng would be one way to get rid of the brits.


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Various things I've read/think:
> 
> * Memphis fans don't seem to happy with Gasol. those calling him a franchise players should consider the state of the Grizzlies.


I know this wasn't the entire point of your post, but I just thought I'd point it out that, I'm guessing you're basing that opinion off of this season. 

I don't think Pau is a franchise player, but I also think he's been guilty of 'Cartering' a tad bit this season. Did you ever ask Memphis fans what they thought of Pau during most of last year, when they won 49 games with virtually the same roster that they have right now?


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

They both go, I go. 

:boohoo:


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

rainman said:


> I thought you were responding to my proposed deal which didnt include Gordon, problem in Chicago, and most fans are in denial, is you dont have defined best players, *you win with stars not just good players. Make the deal you arent winning the title with what you have.*


That kind of logic is exactly what led to Golden State to relinquish Gilbert Arenas.

Now Gordon is not Arenas, BUT.........at the same point in his career, Arenas was not Arenas either. He wasn't even as good as Gordon is NOW in his 3rd year.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The Krakken said:


> That kind of logic is exactly what led to Golden State to relinquish Gilbert Arenas.
> 
> Now Gordon is not Arenas, BUT.........at the same point in his career, Arenas was not Arenas either. He wasn't even as good as Gordon is NOW in his 3rd year.


Golden State didn't relinquish Arenas. He became a UFA and the Warriors didn't have the cap space to match what he was offered by the Wizards. There was a huge "please stay, Gilbert" publicity campaign, but he took the money.


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## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! (Jun 10, 2003)

Sam Smith weighs in:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...strade,1,7693323.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

"However desirable Gasol might be, Gordon and Deng appear to be off the table.

The Bulls would need Gordon's outside shooting to spread the floor and keep double teams off Gasol. Gasol has struggled when teams could collapse on him as they have with poor talent around him. Likewise, it would be questionable for the Bulls to trade Deng because he moves so well off the ball and Gasol is an excellent passer.

NBA rules limit trading the draft pick the Bulls could get from the Knicks, which could complicate a deal. Figure the Bulls would trade Tyrus Thomas, because Gasol would take minutes from him, and probably Andres Nocioni. Would that be enough for the Grizzlies, with future first-rounders thrown in? Probably not.

The Grizzlies probably also would ask for Kirk Hinrich, who seemingly would be a good fit because the Grizzlies desperately need a point guard. Dealing Hinrich is somewhat complicated because of his contract extension, but it is possible with at least a half-dozen players also in a deal to make salary-cap issues work.

Certainly, the Bulls want to keep Hinrich, but they are loaded at guard and have Thabo Sefolosha in the wings—unless the Grizzlies want him.

Figure these talks may take awhile, though, yes, they finally are talking seriously.:


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Golden State didn't relinquish Arenas. He became a UFA and the Warriors didn't have the cap space to match what he was offered by the Wizards.


Bird rule?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> Bird rule?


He signed a 3 year contract

In my previous post I said he was a UFA, which he effectively was. He was probably a RFA, but without bird rights, not enough cap to match anything over MLE so he flew.


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

Arenas was a RFA because you could (and still can) make a player with three years or less experience into a FA whether they like it or not. It was irrelevant, though, because Washington just bid more than Golden State could match. And they didn't gut their team mid season to clear cap room. Which may have been a mistake. But then again, it would have been bloody hard to do.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> That's a talking point, not a counterpoint to any of the legitimate issues that have been made in this thread.
> 
> Perhaps a good argument can be made, but you need to address why becoming a one-dimensional inside team is better than being a one-dimensional outside team.
> 
> ...



Repped.....


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

Sham said:


> Arenas was a RFA because you could (and still can) make a player with three years or less experience into a FA whether they like it or not. It was irrelevant, though, because Washington just bid more than Golden State could match. And they didn't gut their team mid season to clear cap room. Which may have been a mistake. But then again, it would have been bloody hard to do.


If I'm not mistaken, I'm pretty sure the Warriors tried pretty hard that season to shed salary so they could sign Arenas in the offseason, but they just couldn't find a deal that they liked, and he ended up flying out of the nest.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

rosenthall said:


> I know this wasn't the entire point of your post, but I just thought I'd point it out that, I'm guessing you're basing that opinion off of this season.
> 
> I don't think Pau is a franchise player, but I also think he's been guilty of 'Cartering' a tad bit this season. Did you ever ask Memphis fans what they thought of Pau during most of last year, when they won 49 games with virtually the same roster that they have right now?


My impression from various trade rumors was he was valued more highly before he was seen to be dogging it.

The question to me is whether his value will go up on his new team after he's traded. Carter's statistically returned to form since going to New Jersey, but he doesn't seem to be as highly valued as he was before he punked out in Toronto. At least to me, the whole affair pretty definitively answered the question of whether he was a winner or not. Don't get me wrong, I'd still take him (provided the price was right) as he's a productive player, but he's nowhere close to what his stats or hype would indicate.

I don't know how far along that road Gasol is, but I don't think many teams will pay a premium for a guy with a reputation for not trying his hardest.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Sham said:


> Arenas was a RFA because you could (and still can) make a player with three years or less experience into a FA whether they like it or not. It was irrelevant, though, because Washington just bid more than Golden State could match. And they didn't gut their team mid season to clear cap room. Which may have been a mistake. But then again, it would have been bloody hard to do.


http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#37

*37. What is the "Gilbert Arenas" provision?

*With the previous CBA it was sometimes possible to sign restricted free agents to offer sheets their original teams couldn't match. This happened when a player was an Early Bird or Non-Bird free agent (see question number 19) and the team didn't have enough cap room to match a sufficiently large offer. For example, Gilbert Arenas was Golden State's second round draft pick in 2001, and became an Early Bird free agent in 2003. Golden State therefore could only match an offer sheet (or sign Arenas themselves) for up to the average salary (see question number 24), which was about $4.9 million. Washington signed Arenas to an offer sheet with a starting salary of about $8.5 million, which Golden State was powerless to match.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#19

*EARLY BIRD EXCEPTION* -- This is a weaker form of the Larry Bird exception, and is also a component of the Veteran Free Agent exception. Players who qualify for this exception are called "Early Qualifying Veteran Free Agents" in the CBA. A player qualifies for this exception after playing two seasons without being waived or changing teams as a free agent. Using this exception, a team may re-sign its own free agent for 175% of his salary the previous season or the average player salary, whichever is greater (see question number 24 for the definition of "average salary." Also note that for 2005-06 they used a defined figure of $5 million). Early Bird contracts must be for at least two seasons (which limits this exception's usefulness -- it's often better to take a lower salary for one more season and then have the full Bird exception available the next season) and no longer than five seasons. A player can receive raises up to 10.5% of the salary in the first season of the contract using this exception.


If the player was a first round draft pick and just completed the second year of his rookie scale contract, but his team did not exercise their option to extend the contract for the third season (see question number 38), then this exception cannot be used to give him a salary greater than he would have received had the team exercised their third year option. In other words, teams can't decline the option in order to get around the salary scale and give the player more money.



If the player is a restricted free agent with two years of service and receives an offer sheet from a new team, the player's prior team may use the Early Bird exception to match the offer sheet (see question number 36 for restricted free agency).



Starting January 10 of each season, this exception begins to reduce in value. See question number 20 for details.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I pretty much hate the idea of trading Tyrus. He's going to be a big time star with us. I also fear for him... going to a crummy situation in Memphis, he could implode.

Beyond that, if we trade the pic and we trade Thomas, what's our future up front besides Gasol?

I guess this opinion betrays my station in the "win later" camp... I really like our future, and I love what I think Thomas is going to be.


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#37
> 
> *37. What is the "Gilbert Arenas" provision?
> 
> ...






That.......doesn't really refute what I said. :raised_ey


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Sham said:


> That.......doesn't really refute what I said. :raised_ey


Why do you think I was trying to refute what you said?

The only thing I found wrong with your version of the history is that Golden State didn't "make" Arenas a FA, they just signed a 2nd round pick to a 2 year (plus option) contract not expecting him to be the player he turned out to be.

They got burned by the CBA. 

I don't see any reason why they'd "make" him a FA or deliberately put themselves in a position where they couldn't re-sign their big star player, let alone lose him for nought (isn't that a british word?)


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

I didn't say they made him a FA. I said they made him a *RFA*.

As opposed to a UFA.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

From Sam Smith's article: http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...trade,1,7693323.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines



> *NBA rules limit trading the draft pick the Bulls could get from the Knicks*, which could complicate a deal. Figure the Bulls would trade Tyrus Thomas, because Gasol would take minutes from him, and probably Andres Nocioni. Would that be enough for the Grizzlies, with future first-rounders thrown in? Probably not.


Are the Bulls flat-out unable to trade the pick? Does anyone have more info?

If so, this makes a Deng + pick and any other scenario not involving Gordon invalid. I think I would have to reluctantly jump on the proposed deal of Deng + Gordon. Ugh. (Reluctantly because I really like both players. Jump because it's a good trade.)


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## rosenthall (Aug 1, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> My impression from various trade rumors was he was valued more highly before he was seen to be dogging it.
> 
> The question to me is whether his value will go up on his new team after he's traded. Carter's statistically returned to form since going to New Jersey, but he doesn't seem to be as highly valued as he was before he punked out in Toronto. At least to me, the whole affair pretty definitively answered the question of whether he was a winner or not. Don't get me wrong, I'd still take him (provided the price was right) as he's a productive player, but he's nowhere close to what his stats or hype would indicate.
> 
> I don't know how far along that road Gasol is, but I don't think many teams will pay a premium for a guy with a reputation for not trying his hardest.


Fair point. I see what you're saying, but I don't think Pau's 'as far down that road as Carter' for a few reasons.

Pau's hype has never gotten all that close to what Carter was getting in his hey day, when he was half man/half amazing, was a nightly Sports Center darling, and was deemed the second coming of MJ. Hence, Carter's reputation had a lot more room to fall........and it did. 

This next remark is tied into my first one, but Carter's descent was a lot longer in its progression than Pau's in Memphis. Before his one season where he completely dogged it, his career was preceeded by about 2-3 seasons of public disapproval in Toronto for taking too many jump shots and not dominating the way people thought he ought to. Up until the beginning of this season, when rumours started leaking about Pau being skeptical of the direction the team was going in, his rep was pretty much squeaky clean, if I'm not mistaken. 

And, his (apparent) promulgation of his unhappiness has come very recently, and looks like it may get taken care of fairly quickly. If that's the case, I don't think there's been enough air surrounding the fire for it to really spread.

And lastly, if the supposed deals go through that are being talked about with Lu as the centerpiece, then I'm pretty sure that that'd improve our team in the short run a good bit, and am pretty sure that will tidy up the little PR problem he finds himself in at the moment.

Also, I agree with just about everything else you stated in the post I originally replied to.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Sham said:


> I didn't say they made him a FA. I said they made him a *RFA*.
> 
> As opposed to a UFA.


They didn't make him an RFA, either.

It takes both parties, player and team, to become an RFA.

Like how Hinrich didn't become one but Curry, Chandler, Crawford did. Paxson did make those three offers they could have signed and not become RFAs.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Are the Bulls flat-out unable to trade the pick?


From my understanding they can't trade the pick swap on its own as it's tied to our pick, and I highly doubt they want to give us their pick in return.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

rwj333 said:


> From Sam Smith's article: http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...trade,1,7693323.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines





> *Figure these talks may take awhile, though, yes, they finally are talking seriously.*


This is ALL I needed to know,

Thanks for the link


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> From Sam Smith's article: http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...trade,1,7693323.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines
> 
> Are the Bulls flat-out unable to trade the pick? Does anyone have more info?


I'm not sure, this rule always trips me up.

For some reason though, I picture a gentleman's agreement between Pax and West to work around it, and then Pax going back on the deal and stealing the pick the way Jerry Seinfeld stole the marble rye from the old lady from the condo board.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

The Krakken said:


> That kind of logic is exactly what led to Golden State to relinquish Gilbert Arenas.
> 
> Now Gordon is not Arenas, BUT.........at the same point in his career, Arenas was not Arenas either. He wasn't even as good as Gordon is NOW in his 3rd year.


I disagree. He was quite good. Compared to Gordon's 19 PER this season, Arenas was over 21 in his third season. I won't say that Gordon won't become as good as Arenas but as with most players, the odds are against it. We're dealing with a sample size of one player here.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

MikeDC said:


> I pretty much hate the idea of trading Tyrus. He's going to be a big time star with us. I also fear for him... going to a crummy situation in Memphis, he could implode.
> 
> Beyond that, if we trade the pic and we trade Thomas, what's our future up front besides Gasol?
> 
> I guess this opinion betrays my station in the "win later" camp... I really like our future, and I love what I think Thomas is going to be.


Good points. Tyrus' potential is not at the level where he should be considered an untouchable player. However, clearly everyone is fixated on the concept of balance. I would argue that the current construction of the roster favors "win later" over "win now" (though a Gasol trade obviously impacts that). While acquiring Gasol for Tyrus as opposed to an older player such as KG, lessens the problem, dealing Tyrus (especially if the NY pick is included) leaves us without a frontcourt of the future.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Golden State didn't relinquish Arenas. He became a UFA.....


You can stop right there. By letting him become a FA of any kind, they relinquished him. They rolled the dice and LOST.

Part of being a good GM is projecting how your talent is going to turn out, and heading off any contract difficulties before they get there. It didn't happen in Golden State.


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## Sham (Dec 2, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> They didn't make him an RFA, either.


Yes they did.

http://www.nba.com/wizards/news/Wizards_Sign_Arenas_To_Offer030722.html





> It takes both parties, player and team, to become an RFA.


No it doesn't.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#36



> Restricted free agency exists only on a limited basis. It is allowed following the fourth year of rookie "scale" contracts for first-round draft picks (see question number 41). It is also allowed for all veteran free agents who have been in the league three or fewer seasons. However, a first round draft pick becomes an unrestricted free agent following his second or third season if his team does not exercise its option to extend the player's rookie scale contract for the next season. All other free agency is limited to unrestricted free agency.
> 
> In order to make their free agent a restricted free agent, a team must submit a qualifying offer to the player by June 30.


http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#36



> Like how Hinrich didn't become one but Curry, Chandler, Crawford did. Paxson did make those three offers they could have signed and not become RFAs.



You're confusing yourself. I'm not talking about first roudners being extended or whatnot. That's irrelevant. That's the OTHER way to be a restricted free agent, which doesn't apply, because Gilbert wasn't a first rounder.

I am talking about Gilbert being made into a RFA when his contract was up. He signed a two year minimum deal. After it expired, Golden State made him into a restricted free agent from an unrestricted one, as they were perfectly entitled to do (see link to FAQ above). It didn't matter in the end, because Washington bid more than Golden State could match with, since the Arenas provision didn't exist at the time.

But Golden State went through the motions and made him a RFA anyway, just in case.

Like I've said before, and like the link says above: you can make your free agents with three years or less experience into free agents, whether they like it or not, by extending the necessary QO. This happens very often. And it's going to happen with us and Nocioni.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

Either way it doesnt matter. The jist of my point still stands. Trading away Gordon on the basis of "he's just a good player", when he projects to be better still (maybe arenas like, maybe not, but damn good), is just faulty logic.


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## chifaninca (May 28, 2002)

I think any remaining Bulls players will be better with Gasol at teh PF spot.


If we can package Brown, Hinrich (who they seem to need the most after Gordon), + Sweets, Marty etc + a future 2008 or 2009 draft pick.........GO For it.

let's hope it happens and Gordon and Deng are still in Bulls Uni's.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

The one question that's bugging me is has Gasol asked for a trade to us or just for an out (to a contender)? Because it would make a world of difference package wise.


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## eymang (Dec 15, 2006)

step said:


> The one question that's bugging me is has Gasol asked for a trade to us or just for an out (to a contender)? Because it would make a world of difference package wise.


I'm pretty sure it's any contender. I just love that two guys have now requested trades shortly after being blown out by our team


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Kudos to Sham in this thread.

If people want to know what's going on in Memphis, or what Pau Gasol does and does not do well, come to the Memphis board and ask _real_ Memphis fans.

All four of us, but hey, at least you'll be getting informed opinions.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

I can give my opinion right now.

Pau is probably on of the top 10 offensive players in this league and if properly motivated, he could be an MVP candidate. Heck, he is half assing it right now and is sporting a PER of 25.5. When motivated, he can be a very good shotblocker and rebounder. However, do not count on him for tough baskets as he has a tendency to play scared vs. physical defense and power post players. Rarely outplays superior players. A good piece but not the piece. Might turn into a 25 point per game scorer soon with double digit rebounds. Great passer.

He is Vince Carter all over again. Once your team peaks and does not seem a title contender, he is going to pout. Also, he is going to play every summer (or so he told the Grizz). He might relent for Chicago, I am not sure how deep his dislike for Memphis goes but we will soon see.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

There is no guarantee that the Bulls even compete against any of the elite West teams in the finals with Gasol on the team, the Bulls team with what they got now can make a finals apperance. Trading Gordon and Deng is a dumb move considering that Nocioni will be looking for big bucks that as of now isnt a sure thing that the Bulls are going to give to him, plus Tyrus Thomas is atleast 3-4 seasons away from being able to play at a consistent enough level. 

Dont like the idea of giving up a legit NBA star in Gordon and a guy like Luol Deng who might just turn out to be a better player then Gasol in 2 seasons.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

> Gasol made trade overtures before and after Mike Fratello was fired, according to team insiders. The Spaniard dodged the question when asked Sunday if he's demanded a trade at any point this season.
> 
> "I don't want to comment on that right now because I don't want it to be a distraction to me or the team," Gasol said. "It's not beneficial to anybody. Whatever happens is yet to be seen."
> 
> ...


West talks with Bulls about deal, but Grizzlies not in fire sale mode


This is getting good. I'm surprised West actually admitted he talked to the Bulls. Usually there's a strong denial or a "no comment" when it comes to these types of rumors. I'm thinking something will get done eventually.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

If Bulls players are not discussed, exactly what do they talk about? Is it just "If Gasol was on the market what would your interest be on a scale of 1-10?" Seems like it would have to be a very brief conversation.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Whether they want to admit it or not, Memphis is in financial distress.

That means that expiring contracts and draft picks are most valuable to them. The draft picks are valuable because they increase the attractiveness of the team to potential buyers.

So, I'd offer 2 expiring contracts and some picks for Gasol :
Nocioni
PJ Brown
2007 NY pick swap
2007 2nd round pick

That is a very generous offer that they should take. 
If they want more -- go fish; this is fire-sale time whether they want to admit it or not.


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## JPTurbo (Jan 8, 2006)

McBulls said:


> So, I'd offer 2 expiring contracts and some picks for Gasol :
> Nocioni
> PJ Brown
> 2007 NY pick swap
> ...


If Paxson could pull that off he is the GM of the millenium.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

McGraw has stuff on the trade "talks"

Bulls’ talks to acquire Gasol stuck in neutral 



> The Bulls have spoken to Memphis about trading for power forward Pau Gasol, a league source confirmed, but talks have not heated up.
> 
> The 7-foot Gasol didn’t make a great impression against the Bulls on Jan. 13. He finished with 16 points and 13 rebounds, but he hit just 4 of 14 shots in a 111-66 loss.
> 
> ...


More options at the story including waiting until this summer to do a trade and including Hinrich.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

Deng & PJ Brown is a no-brainer. The problem is, that won't get the job done.

Pax really needs to part ways with our draft pick (w/ the swap, of course). 

Deng + PJ + draft pick = fair trade for Gasol

Maybe we can fetch a 2nd rounder from Memphis if it would make Pax pull the trigger. The bottom line for Memphis is that they get an outstanding 21-year old prospect, a very good draft pick, and big financial relief. Are they any other teams that can provide that in a Gasol trade? Probably not many.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

I shiver at the thought of what that first round pick might turn in to.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> The question is, what does Memphis want in return? There is no chance the Bulls would send two core players (Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Kirk Hinrich and Andres Nocioni) *or next year’s unprotected first-round pick to the Grizzlies.*


I agree with the first part, but not necessarily the bolded part. 

I wouldn't give two of those core guys for Gasol either. But I would most definitely combine the NYK pick with one of Hinrich or Chapu. Maybe even with Deng. (But not with Gordon)

Anyway, I hope you guys projecting that the lowball can get it done are right. 

I think the Bulls can win the East without a trade. But with the right trade, I think they become the clear favorites. 

As for "win now" vs. "win later" - Gasol is 26. I don't see it as choosing one while sacrificing the other.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

yodurk said:


> Deng & PJ Brown is a no-brainer. The problem is, that won't get the job done.
> 
> Pax really needs to part ways with our draft pick (w/ the swap, of course).
> 
> ...


I think you're probably right. I know it's a rough estimate, but I always think with non superstar positions, draft order is no worse than most ways of determining value.

Deng was a #7 pick and Gasol was a #3 pick. Again, I'm not saying this should be the defining metric or anything, but in my experience, it's accurate more often than not. We need to add something else to make a #7 worth a #3. The Knicks pick, likely in the 8-15 range in a good draft is probably not bad.

I'm a little surprised McGraw thinks the Bulls consider the pick untouchable. Of course, I'd probably want to kill myself if we traded it for Gasol and it ended up being Oden, Durant, or even Noah.


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## Thorgal (Feb 1, 2003)

yodurk said:


> Deng & PJ Brown is a no-brainer. The problem is, that won't get the job done.
> 
> Pax really needs to part ways with our draft pick (w/ the swap, of course).
> 
> Deng + PJ + draft pick = fair trade for Gasol


Though Deng is a terrific prospect I *DON'T* think he (or Tyrus or Noc as the matter of the fact) will be our most coveted asset by Grizzlies.

They'are already loaded with wing players - Mike Miller (G-F), Hakim Warrick (F) and of course Rudy Gay (SF). The upcoming draft is very deep in terms of post players, so they'll pick up some good stuff for F-C.

That leaves the conclusion that ther biggest need is PG - Kirk Hinrich or Ben Gordon. Because of the fact that Grizzlies are very young team (in general) - they'll need more of floor general than score-first type of PG.

To recapitulate:
*Kirk Hinrich + NY pick + filler* (I'm not sure who that would be since I'm not very strong in BYC stuff) <=> *Pau Gasol*


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

If the Bulls wait until the summer and Memphis gets Oden or Durant (~40% chance), then the Bulls are screwed. One of those two players could easily propel them right back into contention. A trade needs to happen by the deadline.

If the Bulls include Hinrich, the salaries would need to be about ~20 million for Chicago, and ~25 million for Memphis because of Hinrich's poison pill provision. This is easily workable because both teams have a lot of expiring contracts. Two trades that work:

*Hinrich + PJ + Deng + Sweetney + Malik Allen + Barrett* 
for 
*Gasol + Mike Miller + Damon Stoudamire* or 
*Gasol + Atkins (expiring) + Tsakalidis (expiring) + Dahntay Jones + Alexander Johnson*.

Both of these look pretty fair to me... especially the second one. That's an easy deal for West, right?


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## Thorgal (Feb 1, 2003)

rwj333 said:


> *Hinrich + PJ + Deng + Sweetney + Malik Allen + Barrett*
> for
> *Gasol + Mike Miller + Damon Stoudamire* or
> *Gasol + Atkins (expiring) + Tsakalidis (expiring) + Dahntay Jones + Alexander Johnson*.
> ...


I wouldn't bite the second one. No way Gasol is worth Kirk AND Deng (I do believe he's going to be one of the top SFs in the East very soon).


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## bigdbucks (Jun 7, 2002)

NO WAY IN HELL!!! Neither one should go. Deng is averaging about 18 a game to go with 6 boards or so. That's pretty much what Gasol averages. Deng is still on his way up and Gasol has reached his peak. We've seen the best of Gasol but not the best of Deng. And Ben Gordon has just been sick! This would be ridiculous if we were to pull any deal with this.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

bigdbucks said:


> NO WAY IN HELL!!! Neither one should go. Deng is averaging about 18 a game to go with 6 boards or so. That's pretty much what Gasol averages. Deng is still on his way up and Gasol has reached his peak. We've seen the best of Gasol but not the best of Deng. And Ben Gordon has just been sick! This would be ridiculous if we were to pull any deal with this.



When did NBA players start peaking at 26?

If you think Deng is as good as Pau simply because of numbers, you know nothing about hoops. Same goes with Gordon.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

Thorgal said:


> I wouldn't bite the second one. No way Gasol is worth Kirk AND Deng (I do believe he's going to be one of the top SFs in the East very soon).


This is in response to the other thread as well. 

I'm simply trying to be realistic. The Bulls have 5 players who can play small forward, and a huge obvious need for a tall big man. Everybody knows it. This lowers the Bulls' leverage. Gasol has asked out from Memphis. This lowers Memphis' leverage. But, Memphis could easily keep Gasol, strike the lottery jackpot, and not need to trade him. His value is a lot higher when he's on a winning team. Other teams, like Boston, could offer quite a bit for Gasol. 

How are the Bulls going to get a quality big? Who will it be, if not Gasol? Big men of his caliber are simply not available very often. The pick, at its current placement, is not high enough to acquire a quality big man. It would be foolish to plan on having a top 3 pick. 

I'd love to trade PJ Brown and Deng for Gasol, but clearly that trade is not an option, or it would be done. I'd love to trade Nocioni instead of Deng, but I don't think Memphis wants him. According to Sam Smith, the Knicks' pick can't be traded, too. 

To be fair, I was also willing to trade Deng and Gordon for Gasol at one point, though I've since changed my mind. Maybe I'm not realistic, but overly negative.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> This is in response to the other thread as well.
> 
> I'm simply trying to be realistic. The Bulls have 5 players who can play small forward, and a huge obvious need for a tall big man. Everybody knows it. This lowers the Bulls' leverage. Gasol has asked out from Memphis. This lowers Memphis' leverage. But, Memphis could easily keep Gasol, strike the lottery jackpot, and not need to trade him. His value is a lot higher when he's on a winning team. Other teams, like Boston, could offer quite a bit for Gasol.
> 
> ...


I agree almost fully with this sentiment. There's no guarantee we can come up with a guy who's as good as Gasol in the draft or by trade. The reverse of the Brand for Chandler trade theory.

I would add that Paxson worships the dollar, and based upon that it would make sense that Hinrich is the guard piece he'd be willing to give up. Many people are saying that Memphis doesn't need a SF.

I agree with the memphis fans/posters who say that Gasol isn't THE piece that makes a team a championship contender. I see him as the right kind of player to complement what we would have left to make us a real contender. I like it that he's just 26. I don't like it that he suffered his injury, which could make him a little squeamish about being agressive at times.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

DaBullz said:


> I agree almost fully with this sentiment. There's no guarantee we can come up with a guy who's as good as Gasol in the draft or by trade. The reverse of the Brand for Chandler trade theory.
> 
> I would add that Paxson worships the dollar, and based upon that it would make sense that Hinrich is the guard piece he'd be willing to give up. Many people are saying that Memphis doesn't need a SF.
> 
> I agree with the memphis fans/posters who say that Gasol isn't THE piece that makes a team a championship contender. I see him as the right kind of player to complement what we would have left to make us a real contender. I like it that he's just 26. I don't like it that he suffered his injury, which could make him a little squeamish about being agressive at times.


Would you trade Gordon as the centerpiece for Gasol? If so, what else would you be willing to include in addition to Gordon?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Would you trade Gordon as the centerpiece for Gasol? If so, what else would you be willing to include in addition to Gordon?


No.

But I would do Hinrich and Deng.

EDIT: But only if we get Warrick as well.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> No.
> 
> But I would do Hinrich and Deng.
> 
> EDIT: But only if we get Warrick as well.


These are my sentiments as well. Hinrich and Deng are the two most easily replaced pieces of the bunch. Hinrich, because I'm almost positive we can pick up a heady PG who can shoot the three with inconsistency either with the MLE or through the draft (Acie Law III is a guy who'd I have my eye on) and Nocioni is a capable replacement for Deng. I'm not sure what else Memphis would want, but in my mind the only things I'm not giving up in a trade for Pau are...

Ben Gordon
Ben Wallace
the pick

I'd like to keep Tyrus as well b/c a Nocioni-Tyrus-Pau frontline is insanely good three years from now.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

The only issue with trading Hinrich for Gasol is that its going to be tough to win it all this year.

Who is going to be our PG? Gordon isn't ready right now, IMO. Duhon is mired in an awful slump. Perhaps he'll snap out of it.

If the goal is to win next season, Hinrich/Deng/Brown for Gasol/Miller would work. Get the best available PG for the MLE... or trade our young assets for a star (Kidd?)

If we could get Damon back from the Griz, I'd be a little more comfortable with a Duhon/Damon combo, even though neither are having very good seasons.

Hinrich/Deng/Brown for Gasol/Miller/Damon would be a dream trade, IMO.

Our "win now" chances go up, and we still get to keep Tyrus, Thabo and the pick for those with a fear of commitment.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

Where's this Mike Miller throw-in stuff coming from? The seven-foot All-Star isn't enough? Let's fleece the Grizzlies for the 17/6/5 deadeye, too?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Rawse said:


> Where's this Mike Miller throw-in stuff coming from? The seven-foot All-Star isn't enough? Let's fleece the Grizzlies for the 17/6/5 deadeye, too?


I'm just throwing ideas out there.

I consider Deng+Gordon/Hinrich for Gasol and filler to be a fair asking price.... Miller would be a boon for the Bulls, IMO.

I'm not sure what the overall goal is for the Griz. Miller is another long term deal that could be shed if the goal is a complete blow up.

Hinrich, Thabo, Deng, Brown for Gasol, Miller, Damon? (salaries prolly don't match up)


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

Rawse said:


> Where's this Mike Miller throw-in stuff coming from? The seven-foot All-Star isn't enough? Let's fleece the Grizzlies for the 17/6/5 deadeye, too?


He was putting up 13/3/5 on the 50 win Grizzlies.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> The only issue with trading Hinrich for Gasol is that its going to be tough to win it all this year.
> 
> Who is going to be our PG? Gordon isn't ready right now, IMO. Duhon is mired in an awful slump. Perhaps he'll snap out of it.
> 
> ...


Duhon is perfectly fine at PG.

Geez, looking at Gasol's numbers, he was 1 APG less than Hinrich last year.

What we lose is Hinrich's DEFENSE. But a trade for a guy like Gasol is going to hurt us in some way.

I envison a team with Gordon, Gasol, and Nocioni to be better than what we have now. 

On the offensive end, first pass should go to Gasol and let him score or dish from the post. You get a nice two-man game with him and Gordon, with Nocioni making them pay for the double teams from the weak side. Nocioni is also pretty good at getting buckets in the paint. Wallace is a fine passing big man as well - he'd be in the high post.

On defense, you'd have that 7 footer to pair with Wallace in the paint. As critical as people are about Chandler, his biggest asset for us may have been that just standing there in the paint was enough to discourage teams from driving; when we had him and Curry, guys like Shaq said they hated playing against us because of our two bigs. I see the same with Pau and Wallace.

The problem with trading Gordon is that we'd really lose that consistent outside threat that ideally complements Gasol's inside presence. No matter what his 3pt FG% stat is, I would defend this bulls team by letting Hinrich shoot all the 3s he wants. If we traded Gordon and kept deng, I think Deng and Gasol would make it easier on the defense because Deng doesn't shoot the 3 anymore and the two of them would likely end up trying to score from roughly the same spot on the court (one guy might be enough to guard both).


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

:crowded: 

I'm trapped between fans who want to give up too much and those who won't give up enough! :biggrin:


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Rawse said:


> Where's this Mike Miller throw-in stuff coming from? The seven-foot All-Star isn't enough? Let's fleece the Grizzlies for the 17/6/5 deadeye, too?


I think the concern is that if the bulls give up their top 2 scorers, they're going to want two scorers in return.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> He was putting up 13/3/5 on the 50 win Grizzlies.


You're right, those trade proposals aren't ridiculous at all.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

Personally, I hope this talk just dies down and we can re-evaluate this in the offseason. Shaking up the team and getting two or three new starters just sounds like a recipe for disaster. Is there any way to get a third team involved? 

Pax is absolutely correct to stick to his guns and keep from trading two core players. And we'd be fools to trade the pick right now. Otis Thorpe anyone?


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> I agree almost fully with this sentiment. There's no guarantee we can come up with a guy who's as good as Gasol in the draft or by trade. The reverse of the Brand for Chandler trade theory.
> 
> I would add that Paxson worships the dollar, and based upon that it would make sense that Hinrich is the guard piece he'd be willing to give up. Many people are saying that Memphis doesn't need a SF.
> 
> I agree with the memphis fans/posters who say that Gasol isn't THE piece that makes a team a championship contender. I see him as the right kind of player to complement what we would have left to make us a real contender. I like it that he's just 26. I don't like it that he suffered his injury, which could make him a little squeamish about being agressive at times.


I agree completely


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Duhon is perfectly fine at PG.
> 
> Geez, looking at Gasol's numbers, he was 1 APG less than Hinrich last year.
> 
> ...


Again, I agree. Hell I will let you post because we seem to see eye-to-eye on this subject.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> I'm just throwing ideas out there.
> 
> I consider Deng+Gordon/Hinrich for Gasol and filler to be a fair asking price.... Miller would be a boon for the Bulls, IMO.
> 
> ...


Speaking in strictly financial terms, essentially swapping Brown (plus other salaries) for Gasol saves Memphis enough money to be under the cap. The attitude, if I'm to believe the front office in Memphis, notorious for their ultra-conservative trade approach, is that West isn't having a firesale. He'll trade Gasol if it benefits the franchise. Like I said in another thread, basically echoing an article, Gasol can't play any worse or become any more of a distraction than he's allowed himself to become, and losing games is actually a good thing at this point of the season. Especially with who's in the draft next season.

Miller'd be a boon for anyone. He's thriving in an uptempo style and if we can already trade Gasol plus one of Stoudamire/Cardinal/Swift, there's not much reason to throw Mike Miller in for fun. Unless the management wants to complete their ultimate goal of turning the fan base 100 percent against them and then retire/high-tail it to Las Vegas at their first opportunity.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

There's an issue that none of us have really considered.

It's now well known throughout the league that Gasol could be had. The Bulls have the pieces to make an attractive offer for him, but other teams who might want Pau will certainly up the bidding.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> There's an issue that none of us have really considered.
> 
> It's now well known throughout the league that Gasol could be had. The Bulls have the pieces to make an attractive offer for him, but other teams who might want Pau will certainly up the bidding.


The Nets have put in an offer for Gasol, no details. Apparently some NJ beat writer has some source that claims it's a 'pretty good' offer.

Trying to figure out who would go on the Nets board.

Right now some of the guessed offers are:

Carter, Boone, 1st (mine).
Jefferson, Krstic, 1st (mine).

Carter, Krstic, 1st (someone elses).

Carter's a much better expiring for the Grizzles as they have the 2nd lowest attendance in the NBA, AND are closer to 30 than 28th. Make some more money? Drop some salary in the offseason? Get something in a sign and trade (as the Bobcats are the only team under the cap, can't offer the larger raises of 6th year)?


Boston has more to offer if you are only offering Gordon and Deng:

Al Jefferson, and a player or two among the group of, Delonte West, Telfair, Green, Rondo... And their pick is just as attractive as the Knicks pick right now.

-Petey


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Duhon is perfectly fine at PG.


I can't describe Duhon's play over the last month as "perfectly fine."

Its been pretty rotten, IMO.






> What we lose is Hinrich's DEFENSE.


And for me, while I'm somewhat worried about this, I'm usually impressed at how well Duhon Ds up an opposing guard when he's guarding the 2. Its a slight downgrade, but not a huge one, IMO.




> I envison a team with Gordon, Gasol, and Nocioni to be better than what we have now.


If we could get the Duhon I've been used to seeing the last 2.5 seasons, I agree.





> On the offensive end, first pass should go to Gasol and let him score or dish from the post. You get a nice two-man game with him and Gordon, with Nocioni making them pay for the double teams from the weak side. Nocioni is also pretty good at getting buckets in the paint. Wallace is a fine passing big man as well - he'd be in the high post.


All of this sounds great... and Gasol really improved his passing last season. But I also agree that the benched Duhon and Wallace being the other 2 players on the court creates a 3 on 5 situation that would be very difficult to overcome this season. If Duhon could just bang down those open threes I'd be a lot more confident.




> On defense, you'd have that 7 footer to pair with Wallace in the paint. As critical as people are about Chandler, his biggest asset for us may have been that just standing there in the paint was enough to discourage teams from driving; when we had him and Curry, guys like Shaq said they hated playing against us because of our two bigs. I see the same with Pau and Wallace.


I agree.




> The problem with trading Gordon is that we'd really lose that consistent outside threat that ideally complements Gasol's inside presence. No matter what his 3pt FG% stat is, I would defend this bulls team by letting Hinrich shoot all the 3s he wants. If we traded Gordon and kept deng, I think Deng and Gasol would make it easier on the defense because Deng doesn't shoot the 3 anymore and the two of them would likely end up trying to score from roughly the same spot on the court (one guy might be enough to guard both).


I'd rather keep Gordon over Deng as well.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> There's an issue that none of us have really considered.
> 
> It's now well known throughout the league that Gasol could be had. The Bulls have the pieces to make an attractive offer for him, but other teams who might want Pau will certainly up the bidding.


Danny Ainge reportedly made an offer several weeks ago saying the Grizzlies could have "any combination" of players that would get a deal done for Gasol.

I assume that excluded Pierce, but aside from Deng, Boston's prospects like Green, Jefferson, Perkins, Rondo interest me far more than Thabo Sefolosha, who I like, or an about-to-be-overpaid Kirk Hinrich. And they'll finish below the Knicks.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I see in a couple places the Grizz might want Hinrich and I think that might be legit.

I don't think the Grizzlies are so financially strapped that they wouldn't take Hinrich. Gordon or Deng will be getting extensions soon enough anyway, though obviously they are cheaper.

Really, they're not so financially strapped that they need to make a deal. They're due to be under the salary cap next year, in fact.

A deal that brought back a player like Hinrich would fill an immediate hole while probably not making them good enough to take them out of the Oden/Durant sweepstakes. 

Kirk, unlike Gordon, could conceivably play next to Kyle Lowry, who they like a lot.

Kirk, unlike Gasol, is probably not going to dog it. Thus, he gives them an established, marketable, productive player who they can sell.

Financially, they can still cut quite a lot of salary if they take back Kirk and send out a guy like Stoudamire, Swift or Cardinal. A Gasol/Stoudemire for Kirk/PJ/Sweetney deal would save this much per year:

<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 358pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="478"><col style="width: 74pt;" width="98"> <col style="width: 49pt;" width="65"> <col style="width: 47pt;" span="5" width="63"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt; width: 74pt;" height="17" width="98">
</td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 49pt;" width="65">06-07</td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 47pt;" width="63">07-08</td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 47pt;" width="63">08-09</td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 47pt;" width="63">09-10</td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 47pt;" width="63">10-11</td> <td class="xl25" style="width: 47pt;" width="63">11-12</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">Savings</td> <td class="xl24" x:num="1.9613230000000001"> $ 1.96 </td> <td class="xl24" x:num="6.665"> $ 6.67 </td> <td class="xl24" x:num="9.2959999999999994"> $ 9.30 </td> <td class="xl24" x:num="6.9520000000000071"> $ 6.95 </td> <td class="xl24" x:num="9.2830000000000084"> $ 9.28 </td> <td class="xl24" x:num="-7.5799999999999894"> $ (7.58)</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
(The 2011-2012 number is negative because Kirk is still under contract and Gasol is not. But that'll be a good value for Kirk then, one would think.)

I don't know whether the Grizz really want him, but he would still let them save financially while giving them an established guy at a need position.


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## ExtremeBrigs (Jul 20, 2006)

Kirk's big extension kicks in next year, so trading him is going to be very VERY difficult because he'll count about $3.5 mil against the cap this year, and $8 mil against the cap next. Doesn't make sense for a team supposedly clearning cap space by taking PJ back. Most of his expiring cash would be immediately re-invested into Kirk's pay bump.

That said, I've heard nothing substantial on the Serious Hot Rumor Front today about the Bulls and the Grizz. They've talked a little bit, but like many have said West wants franchise-changing players if they're going to give up their one All-Star, no matter how poorly he's playing right now.

If I do come across anything, It'll be here that I post it first...


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

unless West took Deng, Brown, and pick etc for Gasol... i dont see anything getting done. I dont even know of Pax would be comfortable losing Deng at all. 

There are certain athletic SFs in this league that only Deng can guard. Not Noc, not VK. I'm not saying Deng is an All-Defense guy, but I think putting Noc on athletic SFs all game long is suicide... even if he were healthy to boot.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Really, they're not so financially strapped that they need to make a deal.

The corrolary to this is that we should think long and hard about what it says about Gasol that they don't need to make this deal but will anyway.

Going back to *Rosenthall's* points above, yeah, the hype and fall of Gasol are nothing compared to Carter, but it seems primarily due to to things. First, nobody thought Gasol was as good as Carter to begin with. Butdoesnt that mean we should be trading away less to get him?

Second, the fact it's not as "out there" seems based on the level of hype around Carter, his presence in a bigger market, and the length of time things dragged on. But none of that makes Gasols's _behavior _any different, just the amount of light shown upon it. And that's a problem because the behavior is the issue, not the bad pub.

Also, Kirk, Deng and PJ for Gasol, Stoudamire and Warrick appears to work under the CBA.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

boston can put up a very good offer too. but i think they won't part with their pick this year unless it's top2-3 protected. AL jefferson and gerald green are 2 very good prospects. i would label jefferson as the same value as someone like deng. i think the strongest competition is going to coming from the celtics as they have alot of young players and a good pick this year due to their record.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

ExtremeBrigs said:


> Kirk's big extension kicks in next year, so trading him is going to be very VERY difficult because he'll count about $3.5 mil against the cap this year, and $8 mil against the cap next. Doesn't make sense for a team supposedly clearning cap space by taking PJ back. Most of his expiring cash would be immediately re-invested into Kirk's pay bump.
> 
> That said, I've heard nothing substantial on the Serious Hot Rumor Front today about the Bulls and the Grizz. They've talked a little bit, but like many have said West wants franchise-changing players if they're going to give up their one All-Star, no matter how poorly he's playing right now.
> 
> If I do come across anything, It'll be here that I post it first...


Hinrich's contract situation is called "Poison Pill Provision" (PPP). His contract value counts for his current value going one way and for next year's the other.

It's not "VERY difficult" to trade him, but it is more difficult than for other players. With the sizes of the contracts involved, a few million $$$ differential from the PPP could easily fit within the 125% provision.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Also, Kirk, Deng and PJ for Gasol, Stoudamire and Warrick appears to work under the CBA.


Passes the RealGM trade checker.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Hinrich's contract situation is called "Poison Pill Provision" (PPP). His contract value counts for his current value going one way and for next year's the other.
> 
> It's not "VERY difficult" to trade him, but it is more difficult than for other players. With the sizes of the contracts involved, a few million $$$ differential from the PPP could easily fit within the 125% provision.


Yeah, it's really not that tough. As I said before, PJ, Kirk, and any one of Deng, Duhon, Sweetney or Noc (depending on how optimistic you are, I guess) for Gasol, Warrick and Stoudamire is CBA compliant. There are other variants that could work too, but it doesn't seem like a really difficult deal to pull.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

I'm not sure why this just popped into my head, but considering that Gasol appears to be realistically available but at a steep price, am I the only one starting to think that maybe we should have snagged Brandon Roy in the draft? Obviously this is 100% hindsight and everything, but how much sense would he make right about now?

Even if Pax coughed up the Deng/Gordon asking price, Tyrus would appear to still have a formidable wall of productive players in front of him on the depth chart - I think eventually he'd play his way onto the court one way or another, but at least in the short term, he'd have it tough. If we had Roy instead of TT, we would be in a position of considerable strength as far as dealing Hinrich or Gordon for Pau. The idea of a Duhon/Gordon or, absent Gordon off the bench, a Hinrich/Duhon starting backcourt makes me nervous - the idea of a Roy/Gordon or Roy/Hinrich backcourt would certainly not.

I'm with what seems to be the majority in thinking Deng/Gordon is a non-starter, and with the faction that contends we need to try like hell to keep Gordon if we trade for Pau. They'd be an outstanding inside/outside combination. It's too bad Kirk's a poison-pill player right now, because he seems like an ideal bargaining chip here (much as I'd be sad to see him go).


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> I'm not sure why this just popped into my head, but considering that Gasol appears to be realistically available but at a steep price, am I the only one starting to think that maybe we should have snagged Brandon Roy in the draft? Obviously this is 100% hindsight and everything, but how much sense would he make right about now?


Yes.

We didn't know that Gasol would be available or that Paxson wanted and would be willing to do what it takes to grab him.

Roy is certainly the better "win now" player and would fill the hole at guard.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> Yes.
> 
> We didn't know that Gasol would be available or that Paxson wanted and would be willing to do what it takes to grab him.
> 
> Roy is certainly the better "win now" player and would fill the hole at guard.


Like I said, it's pure hindsight, and at draft time we were pretty focused on finding a frontcourt player with good reason. But looking back, and considering that we've been talking about the "consolidation trade for a big man scorer" since basically after the Curry trade, it would have made sense to take Roy for the sole purpose of giving us a ton of leverage to deal both guards and SFs for the Gasol-type player without leaving the cupboard bare. 

Basically what I'm saying is having Duhon as the full-time starter (without Gordon there to score off the bench, anyway) post-trade gives me the willies. If Pax is seriously considering pulling the trigger at West's asking price, I hope he is also calling every GM in the league looking for an upgrade at guard, or somehow wrests Miller from the Grizz too.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> When did NBA players start peaking at 26?
> 
> If you think Deng is as good as Pau simply because of numbers, you know nothing about hoops. Same goes with Gordon.


It seems to me that if Gasol is far more valuable than Gordon or Deng it lies in his possession and his skill set. I think you can measure offense reasonably well with statistics, particularly the advanced metrics being produced these days. None of the three are known for defense. 

I would say that NBA players have been peaking at 26 or 27 forever. It's not a hard and fast rule but that age range is pretty constant accross all of pro sports from what I can tell. There is usually a learning curve when entering a league and athletically people generally peak in their mid 20s and decline in their 30s.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

The very definition of "consolidation trade" is trading two lesser assets for one greater asset.

For those of you unwilling to give up more than Deng individually and filler, then you never were really on board with the concept of a consolidation trade. 

That's fine.

It seems like the big issue is Gordon + Deng for Gasol is too much to give up. I agree that its not a slam dunk. But, this is the price for an all-star level, young big guy. And its pretty clear that we're the ones getting the greater asset for two lesser assets. Perhaps the gap between assets is too narrow for everyone’s liking. I'm on the fence about it as well. But it does meet the parameters of the consolidation trade. 

Gasol is producing at a Garnett level this season, and he's only 26. 

This guy is producing like a top 10 NBA player, and he's supposedly "dogging it." 

http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2007/jh_ALL_PER.htm

If he wants playoff action to get the most out of himself, then this a good place for him.

If not Gasol, then who on Earth are we really willing to consolidation trade for?


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

rwj333 said:


> This is in response to the other thread as well.
> 
> I'm simply trying to be realistic. The Bulls have 5 players who can play small forward, and a huge obvious need for a tall big man. Everybody knows it. This lowers the Bulls' leverage. Gasol has asked out from Memphis. This lowers Memphis' leverage. But, Memphis could easily keep Gasol, strike the lottery jackpot, and not need to trade him. His value is a lot higher when he's on a winning team. Other teams, like Boston, could offer quite a bit for Gasol.
> 
> ...


The leverage lies in how badly Memphis wants or needs to trade Gasol. Vecsey paints a picture of a disgruntled player causing problems that have led Memphis to either feel they must trade Gasol or believe that keeping him around is detrimental to the team. If that's the case then the leverage lies with the Bulls, because the Grizzlies are unlikely to just stand pat. The Bulls would only need to beat the second best offer (likely from the Celtics) to pull off a deal. 

If you're right and there is no pressing need or desire to trade Gasol then Memphis has quite a bit of leverage. They can demand as much as they want from the Bulls and if the Bulls refuse to part with certain players the Grizzlies can just call the deal off. Personally though, I disagree that the Bulls are in a position where they're forced to acquiesce to the Grizzlies though. There is no reason the Bulls must land a low post scorer this season. There are plenty of post players in the draft and they will have a high pick, most of the roster is very young placing them more in "win later" than "win now" mode, and the Bulls can stand pat and still have a solid shot of reaching the Finals.

Honestly, I'm inclined to believe the first interpretation of the situation is the correct one. Why? Because if the Grizzlies are feeling no pressure to move Gasol then why seriously talk with the Bulls at all? Why not maintain the part line from earlier in the season that it would be insane to trade a young star who is the perfect centerpiece for a rebuilding effort?


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

A starting lineup of:

Hinrich
Miller
Nocioni
Gasol
Wallace

Wouldn't be too bad. I prefer it as is though, with Tyrus at PF, Deng at SF and Gordon at SG. That's a lotta white boys on the starting lineup (if you consider Gasol and Nocioni white that is).


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> The very definition of "consolidation trade" is trading two lesser assets for one greater asset.
> 
> For those of you unwilling to give up more than Deng individually and filler, then you never were really on board with the concept of a consolidation trade.
> 
> ...



As I've said on the record many times, I am against a consolidation trade at this point.

Personally, I would never consider trading two players for a single player who's only 10 or 15% better. 19 games isn't nearly enough for me to consider Gasol a top 5 or 10 player in the NBA (or compare him to Garnett for that matter). If he finishes the season 4 points higher than his career average in PER that probably changes things.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

The Bulls are better off keeping their swap pick and getting the best big available, next years FA class isnt anything special you got Primoz Brezec and Magloire available but they are role players who at best just give you extra size.

The best move the Bulls can do right now is finding someone to take away Ben Wallace and his contract.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> The best move the Bulls can do right now is finding someone to take away Ben Wallace and his contract.


If this is true, then Paxson made a terrible error.

----------------------------------------------

This is it. Probably the best "win now" condolidation trade situation the the Bulls will likely encounter.

And the best part about it is that Gasol is young enough to be part of "win later" as well.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> If this is true, then Paxson made a terrible error.


Its just that Wallace has been a bust, the Bulls got this guy to provide a high number or rebounds and great defense and the guy clearly is a shadow of his formal self, hes no longer a consistent high number rebounder, when matched up against even an average center Ben Wallace gets dominated. Was the signing a big mistake? Only time will tell, if the Bulls dont win or make it to an NBA finals in the next 3 seasons then yeah this signing was a terrible error considering the huge amount of money that was spent on him.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Petey said:


> The Nets have put in an offer for Gasol, no details. Apparently some NJ beat writer has some source that claims it's a 'pretty good' offer.
> 
> Trying to figure out who would go on the Nets board.
> 
> ...



Wow! That's absolutely shocking to me. Certainly you're entitled to your player evaluations and West will be entitled to his if a move is made. I certainly wouldn't take the Nets pick which figured to be inferior to the NY pick and filler in Boone over an above average player in Nocioni merely to acquire a little bit more cap room. If Memphis wanted, they could just renounce Nocinoni as a RFA, at which point his salary would combine with Brown's to be close to Carter's and you'd still have the better pick. Jefferson is only 26 so I suppose you could rebuild around him but he's not as good an asset as Deng and you have to be concerned now that he's hurt again. If the Bulls would offer the NY pick along with Deng - I wouldn't - then it would come down to how much you value Kristic and the cap relief afforded by Brown's contract. 

The Grizzlies will not get a deal better than Deng and Gordon and they will not get a deal as good as Deng and Gordon for that matter. I suppose if you value quantity a Celtics deal with two top end prospects (Jefferson and Green), a couple other decent prospects (West, Rondo, Telfair), and the draft pick is pretty enticing (though I promise you they won't deal the pick unprotected). I would take Deng and Gordon in a heartbeat. 21 and 23 year old borderline All-Stars just are just not traded. A player of Gasol's calliber has to be involved and there are only five or ten players in the league (guys like Wade, LeBron, Paul, Melo) who you could trade for those two without getting a steal.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

ViciousFlogging said:


> I'm not sure why this just popped into my head, but considering that Gasol appears to be realistically available but at a steep price, am I the only one starting to think that maybe we should have snagged Brandon Roy in the draft? Obviously this is 100% hindsight and everything, but how much sense would he make right about now?
> 
> Even if Pax coughed up the Deng/Gordon asking price, Tyrus would appear to still have a formidable wall of productive players in front of him on the depth chart - I think eventually he'd play his way onto the court one way or another, but at least in the short term, he'd have it tough. If we had Roy instead of TT, we would be in a position of considerable strength as far as dealing Hinrich or Gordon for Pau. The idea of a Duhon/Gordon or, absent Gordon off the bench, a Hinrich/Duhon starting backcourt makes me nervous - the idea of a Roy/Gordon or Roy/Hinrich backcourt would certainly not.
> 
> I'm with what seems to be the majority in thinking Deng/Gordon is a non-starter, and with the faction that contends we need to try like hell to keep Gordon if we trade for Pau. They'd be an outstanding inside/outside combination. It's too bad Kirk's a poison-pill player right now, because he seems like an ideal bargaining chip here (much as I'd be sad to see him go).


In hindsight and in the short-run, Roy would have been a better pick. 

However, Thomas is a security blanket for me. I think he's going to replace Wallace in 2 or 3 years. Thomas doesn't help us win the title this year but I think he'll turn out to be a more valuable player for us in the long run than Roy. It will be easier finding a shooting guard in the 2007 draft, than a power forward. Also, who knows if Gordon would have blossomed with Roy sending him to the bench for extended periods? 

Like you said, losing Kirk is tough because he is so versatile and his replacement (Duhon) is so bad, currently. I think I'd rather see Thabo start if Kirk was traded but I realize nobody else feels he is ready. 

I sympathize with Ron Cey (I think): Deng isn't enough, but Deng+Hinrich feels like too much. The pick, if it was tradeable, would have been a nice middle ground.


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> *Wow! That's absolutely shocking to me. Certainly you're entitled to your player evaluations and West will be entitled to his if a move is made. I certainly wouldn't take the Nets pick which figured to be inferior to the NY pick and filler in Boone over an above average player in Nocioni merely to acquire a little bit more cap room. If Memphis wanted, they could just renounce Nocinoni as a RFA, at which point his salary would combine with Brown's to be close to Carter's and you'd still have the better pick. Jefferson is only 26 so I suppose you could rebuild around him but he's not as good an asset as Deng and you have to be concerned now that he's hurt again. If the Bulls would offer the NY pick along with Deng - I wouldn't - then it would come down to how much you value Kristic and the cap relief afforded by Brown's contract. *
> 
> The Grizzlies will not get a deal better than Deng and Gordon and they will not get a deal as good as Deng and Gordon for that matter. I suppose if you value quantity a Celtics deal with two top end prospects (Jefferson and Green), a couple other decent prospects (West, Rondo, Telfair), and the draft pick is pretty enticing (though I promise you they won't deal the pick unprotected). I would take Deng and Gordon in a heartbeat. 21 and 23 year old borderline All-Stars just are just not traded. A player of Gasol's calliber has to be involved and there are only five or ten players in the league (guys like Wade, LeBron, Paul, Melo) who you could trade for those two without getting a steal.


If you read my post again, I stated it was written the Nets put in a 'pretty good offer'. But the source did not disclose the offer. So we are trying to guess what those offers would be. 

Not saying that's what Thorn offered but it would have to involve a big contract, IE Jefferson or Carter (or Kidd, but he seems like the least likely fit). And of course extras. 

Thing people underestimate about Vince Carter, he did wonders for the attendance. The Grizzles are 29th right now. He's a guy that could help a franchise generate $$$.

Don't think Carter is walking. Carter a major FA? When that happens there major hoopla. Don't see that, as the only team with Cap Space is the Bobcats (or enough to give him a max deal). And who is going to start him off at 16M next year?

-Petey


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> The leverage lies in how badly Memphis wants or needs to trade Gasol. Vecsey paints a picture of a disgruntled player causing problems that have led Memphis to either feel they must trade Gasol or believe that keeping him around is detrimental to the team. If that's the case then the leverage lies with the Bulls, because the Grizzlies are unlikely to just stand pat. The Bulls would only need to beat the second best offer (likely from the Celtics) to pull off a deal.
> 
> If you're right and there is no pressing need or desire to trade Gasol then Memphis has quite a bit of leverage. They can demand as much as they want from the Bulls and if the Bulls refuse to part with certain players the Grizzlies can just call the deal off. Personally though, I disagree that the Bulls are in a position where they're forced to acquiesce to the Grizzlies though. There is no reason the Bulls must land a low post scorer this season. There are plenty of post players in the draft and they will have a high pick, most of the roster is very young placing them more in "win later" than "win now" mode, and the Bulls can stand pat and still have a solid shot of reaching the Finals.
> 
> Honestly, I'm inclined to believe the first interpretation of the situation is the correct one. Why? Because if the Grizzlies are feeling no pressure to move Gasol then why seriously talk with the Bulls at all? Why not maintain the part line from earlier in the season that it would be insane to trade a young star who is the perfect centerpiece for a rebuilding effort?


Nice post. You've changed my mind, more or less, about the Grizzlies' intentions.

Neither of us know what a team like Boston is willing to offer, though, and that is just as important. And I disagree that the Bulls have a chance at nabbing one of the good post players in the draft.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> As I've said on the record many times, I am against a consolidation trade at this point.
> 
> Personally, I would never consider trading two players for a single player who's only 10 or 15% better. 19 games isn't nearly enough for me to consider Gasol a top 5 or 10 player in the NBA (or compare him to Garnett for that matter). If he finishes the season 4 points higher than his career average in PER that probably changes things.


The problem is that the players you are talking about aren't producing as well as Pau did as a rookie. Pau's PER has steadily increased every season and now whne he is entering his peak years they have taken a jump. So not only is he a better player, he is a seven footer with a back to the basket game vs. a player that has struggled to be a starter in the league and a SF (which is the most heavily populated good player position in the league).


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> I think you're probably right. I know it's a rough estimate, but I always think with non superstar positions, draft order is no worse than most ways of determining value.
> 
> Deng was a #7 pick and Gasol was a #3 pick. Again, I'm not saying this should be the defining metric or anything, but in my experience, it's accurate more often than not. We need to add something else to make a #7 worth a #3. The Knicks pick, likely in the 8-15 range in a good draft is probably not bad.
> 
> I'm a little surprised McGraw thinks the Bulls consider the pick untouchable. Of course, I'd probably want to kill myself if we traded it for Gasol and it ended up being Oden, Durant, or even Noah.


Top-2 or 3 protect the pick. The Knicks are not going to finish at the bottom of the league, so the likelyhood of us getting a #4-6 pick this year are nearly impossible. At very least, I would hope we would top 1 protect the pick so we wouldn't miss out on Oden, and I'm not sure that would diminish the value of the pick too much, considering the odds of winning the lottery are looking pretty low from where the Knicks sit right now.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Another consideration is that GMs lie publicly. The story does not even make sense. Why, out of 29 other teams, would Jerry West call Chicago? Why would he call and say," Pau Gasol is available now." and leave the conversation right there. I don't think either team is in dire need to pull the trigger and if the NY pick swap is involved, both teams would have an interest in seeing what direction the Knicks go between now and the trade deadline. Why would either side rush it? The value of that pick can change dramatically in the next month especially with RJ having surgery. The Knicks could actually be in the playoff race by the All Star break.

I mean come on it is 2007. Couldn't Jerry West just send out a freaking email saying Pau Gasol was available to all 29 teams. I think some sort of agreement is in place that is dependent upon the NY pick.


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

Can't see a deal getting done as Jerry West will won't get overpayment back which is what he needs to start rebuilding this Grizz team ..which has some nice pieces but frankly is a mess

Jerry West doesn't have as much upper hand as he would want to get what he wants for Gasol

I could see Danny Ainge doing something desperate to give give Paul Pierce and Wally Sczcerbiak someone to play with


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> Another consideration is that GMs lie publicly. The story does not even make sense. Why, out of 29 other teams, would Jerry West call Chicago? Why would he call and say," Pau Gasol is available now." and leave the conversation right there. I don't think either team is in dire need to pull the trigger and if the NY pick swap is involved, both teams would have an interest in seeing what direction the Knicks go between now and the trade deadline. Why would either side rush it? The value of that pick can change dramatically in the next month especially with RJ having surgery. The Knicks could actually be in the playoff race by the All Star break.
> 
> I mean come on it is 2007. Couldn't Jerry West just send out a freaking email saying Pau Gasol was available to all 29 teams. I think some sort of agreement is in place that is dependent upon the NY pick.





> The Bulls, despite my advice, had not had any conversations with the Grizzlies regarding Gasol this season.
> 
> Then, a few days ago, *a third party not connected with the Grizzlies* was believed to have contacted the Bulls to say Gasol was available and the Grizzlies would be interested in Deng and Gordon.
> 
> ...


Just trying to connect the dots. I think Sam Smith knows something he isn't allowed to say outright.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> Just trying to connect the dots. I think Sam Smith knows something he isn't allowed to say outright.


good call.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

rwj333 said:


> Nice post. You've changed my mind, more or less, about the Grizzlies' intentions.
> 
> Neither of us know what a team like Boston is willing to offer, though, and that is just as important. And I disagree that the Bulls have a chance at nabbing one of the good post players in the draft.


Thanks. As I said in another post, choosing between a Boston offer and a Bulls offer figures to come down to quantity v. quality ie whether Memphis wants to role the dice with a bunch of young prospects or go with fewer proven young players who can contribute at an All-Star level or near that right now.

I certainly agree that the Bulls won't land a player anywhere near Gasol's calliber in the draft but that's more a luxury than a dire need. Someone like Hawes may be available in the late lottery of a draft this deep and could offer enough post offense (say 12 PPG) to keep defenses honest.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

A lot of good stuff in this thread. I think it's pretty universally agreed that Deng AND Gordon is too much. I'd part with Deng prior to Gordon if push came to shove.

The trade that was hinted at earlier (Deng, Brown, Duhon for Gasol and Cardinal) seemed pretty good. I'm thinking that even though Jerry West insists that there is no fire sale going on, that his hand is being forced by the Grizz ownership. Couple Gasol's supposed request to be moved with the Grizz losing approx $30 mil. per year along with failed attempts to sell the team and you get: firesale.

The Grizz need salary relief and also shorter, cheaper contract and picks. The above trade gives them Deng (a VERY good young player) PJ brown (cap relief) and Duhon (good, cheap, short-term deal) while jettisoning one really bad contract in Cardinal. The price the Griz pay in the Bulls taking on Cardinal is losing out on the NY pick swap. I'd offer them our 2008 pick if cardinal is included in the deal or possibly the pick swap if Cardinal is removed (although I don't know how the salaries work in that instance).


I'll be curious to see if this "rumor" has any real legs to it...


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Hinrich + Noch, I might do it. For Gasol + Warrick? Yes, almost certainly.

Trade the pick? Why not? The Knicks are playing well and in my eyes, there's a drop off after Noah (top 5). Yi Jianlian, Josh McRoberts, Thabeet, Tiago Splitter... could be good, could be bust. But there's a very good chance that we have no shot at Durant, Noah, B. Wright, or Oden.

The truth is, we don't need a player at any other position except PF/C. And it's my belief that Tyrus will continue to develop, and be defensively fierce, so all we really need is a younger player to step up as Big Ben's health and performance begins to decline. I think Noah would make a particularly good C for this team... his game is very Gasol-like in many ways.

But if the pick can leverage into a lot of value in terms of getting a guy like Gasol, I'm a lot more amenable to trading it now. Boston, Philly, Charlotte and Atlanta are almost guaranteed to be worse than New York... MAYBE Charlotte will put together some scraps mid-season, but it would be a first. Teams like Milwaukee and Toronto teeter in the balance as well, and the Knicks could very well end up with the 8th or 9th pick overall.

Talents like Thaddeus Young, Corey Brewer, Jeff Green... they aren't what we need. We MIGHT be interested in a guy like Marcus Williams from Arizona, if we somehow went away from Gordon as the future at SG. But otherwise, if we don't get the elite size, then the pick's worth more to someone else than it is to us.

So trade it!


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> The problem is that the players you are talking about aren't producing as well as Pau did as a rookie. Pau's PER has steadily increased every season and now whne he is entering his peak years they have taken a jump. So not only is he a better player, he is a seven footer with a back to the basket game vs. a player that has struggled to be a starter in the league and a SF (which is the most heavily populated good player position in the league).


I disagree as far as Deng. He has a 19.0 PER so far this season at the age of 21 while Gasol had a near idential PER of 19.5 at 21 in his rookie season. You're point applies better to Gordon (though saying he's struggled as a starter is a bit of a cheap shot considering that he's been one of the better guards in the NBA this season). I think you're dead on as far as Gasol's position. I've said since the beginning of this thread that if Gordon or Deng is moved the primary factor is Gasol's skill set/fit.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

MemphisX said:


> Another consideration is that GMs lie publicly. The story does not even make sense. Why, out of 29 other teams, would Jerry West call Chicago? Why would he call and say," Pau Gasol is available now." and leave the conversation right there. I don't think either team is in dire need to pull the trigger and if the NY pick swap is involved, both teams would have an interest in seeing what direction the Knicks go between now and the trade deadline. Why would either side rush it? The value of that pick can change dramatically in the next month especially with RJ having surgery. The Knicks could actually be in the playoff race by the All Star break.
> 
> I mean come on it is 2007. Couldn't Jerry West just send out a freaking email saying Pau Gasol was available to all 29 teams. I think some sort of agreement is in place that is dependent upon the NY pick.


i think its obvoius the knicks are in the playoff race and will be for the forseeable future .

they are tied for the 10th seed now if the win 2night they are tied for 9th ...and with RJ down plus krstic already down , i think the odds of the nets faultering are pretty good...if at the trade deadline if the knicks are in the playoffs instead of now as of this moment 1 and 1/2 games behind the raps for the 8th seed i dont think it matters much if the bulls demand top 3 protection which i am assuming they will do , its just a matter of a few spots either way , just a #'s on a board until we know who is declaring amd get a good gauge at how they may perform in the league.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

You almost have to hold on to that Knicks pick, they arent good enough to be out of the top 15 picks, but if Eddy Curry gets injured the knicks will free fall! You dont want to root for Eddy to go down, but if he does that pick becomes way more valuable.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

thebizkit69u said:


> You almost have to hold on to that Knicks pick, they arent good enough to be out of the top 15 picks, but if Eddy Curry gets injured the knicks will free fall! You dont want to root for Eddy to go down, but if he does that pick becomes way more valuable.


Anything that gets David Lee more minutes gives the Knicks that much more playoff hopes.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

Rawse said:


> Anything that gets David Lee more minutes gives the Knicks that much more playoff hopes.


I like David Lee but hes allready getting 30 minutes a game, 4 less then Curry.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

thebizkit69u said:


> ... if Eddy Curry gets injured the knicks will free fall! You dont want to root for Eddy to go down, but if he does that pick becomes way more valuable.


…or fall in love with someone other than Jamal 

Extensive sex could easily drain his energy and make him fragile. Pax needs to hire a sexy (top notch)female "agent" and she will help Eddy with early retirement. I am just wondering can JR get a tax relieve for such expenses ?


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Showtyme said:


> Trade the pick? Why not? The Knicks are playing well and in my eyes, there's a drop off after Noah (top 5). Yi Jianlian, Josh McRoberts, Thabeet, Tiago Splitter... could be good, could be bust. But there's a very good chance that we have no shot at Durant, Noah, B. Wright, or Oden.


Hmm. I hadn't thought about Splitter for a long time. He pretty much fits the tall, man defender people have been talking about to a T and his defense is NBA ready. Interesting...


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Rawse said:


> Anything that gets David Lee more minutes gives the Knicks that much more playoff hopes.


FREE SWEETNEY!! i mean... 

FREE DAVID LEE!!!


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## Cyanobacteria (Jun 25, 2002)

Wow, 20 freakin pages about a Vescey rumor? The board lives!

My favorie part about this has nothing to do with the players or even basketball. Vescey goes out of his way to call some of his sources infallible. Infallible? So this time he has a rumor and he _means_ it? Does every bit of info from these sources turn out to be 100% correct? Have they ever made an error in thier entire lives? Or is it just undisputable that this information did inded come from sources and not Peter's imagination?

It reminds me of when Demi Moore _strenuously_ objects in A Few Good Men. "Oh! You _strenuously_ object!"


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Cyanobacteria said:


> Wow, 20 freakin pages about a Vescey rumor? The board lives!
> 
> My favorie part about this has nothing to do with the players or even basketball. Vescey goes out of his way to call some of his sources infallible. Infallible? So this time he has a rumor and he _means_ it? Does every bit of info from these sources turn out to be 100% correct? Have they ever made an error in thier entire lives? Or is it just undisputable that this information did inded come from sources and not Peter's imagination?
> 
> It reminds me of when Demi Moore _strenuously_ objects in A Few Good Men. "Oh! You _strenuously_ object!"


Hey! Don't spoil the fun!


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

With regard to NY’s pick, I am wondering how far up in the draft could we go (considering Boston, Philly, Charlotte , Atlanta …needs), if we package it with Deng and Du ?


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

On CSN, Sam Smith just said that the Bulls could trade the pick, but the holdup lies in the fact that the league prohibits them from protecting it.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

Babble-On said:


> On CSN, Sam Smith just said that the Bulls could trade the pick, but the holdup lies in the fact that the league prohibits them from protecting it.


Does anyone know what rule that would violate? I thought protecting draft picks wasn't anything unusual...

EDIT: Nevermind, I just saw Sham's sig.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Babble-On said:


> On CSN, Sam Smith just said that the Bulls could trade the pick, but the holdup lies in the fact that the league prohibits them from protecting it.


Whoa. Fascinating. The odds of landing a top two pick figure to be less than 5 or 7% and an unprotected pick would have more value but at the same time, missing an opportunity to draft Oden or Durrant would be beyond catastrohpic.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Cyanobacteria said:


> Wow, 20 freakin pages about a Vescey rumor? The board lives!
> 
> My favorie part about this has nothing to do with the players or even basketball. Vescey goes out of his way to call some of his sources infallible. Infallible? So this time he has a rumor and he _means_ it? Does every bit of info from these sources turn out to be 100% correct? Have they ever made an error in thier entire lives? Or is it just undisputable that this information did inded come from sources and not Peter's imagination?
> 
> It reminds me of when Demi Moore _strenuously_ objects in A Few Good Men. "Oh! You _strenuously_ object!"


Rumor? it's already been confirmed that it's official


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Rumor? it's already been confirmed that it's official


Has anyone else reported that Paxson turned down Deng and Gordon?


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

TripleDouble said:


> Has anyone else reported that Paxson turned down Deng and Gordon?


nope, not from what i've read


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Babble-On said:


> On CSN, Sam Smith just said that the Bulls could trade the pick, but the holdup lies in the fact that the league prohibits them from protecting it.


Wow,

That situation is difficult, mainly because NY seems to be settled in the 8-14 spot with the pick. I don't think they'll stray far from that position but they have a better chance at going DOWN than going UP IMO. Personally, I'd probably have to wait this one out until around the deadline, if it were up to me. Our team obviously needs SOMETHING done regardless but trading Ben Gordon should be absolutely OUT of the question.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Right now, during the Griz/Nugz game, it'd be a good time for pax to be talking to west.

Maybe both GMs would be in more of a bargaining mood.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Right now, during the Griz/Nugz game, it'd be a good time for pax to be talking to west.
> 
> Maybe both GMs would be in more of a bargaining mood.



327 responses(and counting),any consensus?. My take is something will probably get done and the sooner the better before someone gets hurt and kills the deal. As for the pick in question i think Tyrus Thomas would do. Trade him and Hinrich or Deng and you keep the pick. Too steep?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

rainman said:



> 327 responses(and counting),any consensus?. My take is something will probably get done and the sooner the better before someone gets hurt and kills the deal. As for the pick in question i think Tyrus Thomas would do. Trade him and Hinrich or Deng and you keep the pick. Too steep?


I would be all over a Thomas+Hinrich for Gasol deal.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

23pts, 17rebs, 6asts & 2blks for Gasol so far tonight vs. Denver

I wish we truely knew what was on the table right now from Pax side.

LOL a few seconds ago Gasol got stripped for the ball and walked back up the court like he wanted to walk OFF the court.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Rudy Gay's handle has gotten REALLY good this season. He looks very SG-ish playing vs. Denver tonight.

Maybe another reason why they could see Deng working in their future?

Having a glut of SG/SF's, they could move Mike Miller for a vet PG or draft one with their (or our) pick. What about something like Miller to Charlotte for Brevin Knight? Memphis needs a PG, Charlotte needs more scoring. With Gerald Wallace being uncertain to return next season, I think it's a good move.

G Felton
G Miller
F Morrison
F May
C Okafor

G Knight / Lowry
G Gay
F Deng
F Warrick / [Pick]
C [Pick]


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> 23pts, 17rebs, 6asts & 2blks for Gasol so far tonight vs. Denver
> 
> I wish we truely knew what was on the table right now from Pax side.
> 
> LOL a few seconds ago Gasol got stripped for the ball and walked back up the court like he wanted to walk OFF the court.



Dont forget the 2 blocks.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Rudy Gay's handle has gotten REALLY good this season. He looks very SG-ish playing vs. Denver tonight.
> 
> Maybe another reason why they could see Deng working in their future?
> 
> ...


If you had Miller and Morrison at your wings you'd get torched by good swingman.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

The ROY said:


> 23pts, 17rebs, 6asts & 2blks for Gasol so far tonight vs. Denver
> 
> I wish we truely knew what was on the table right now from Pax side.
> 
> LOL a few seconds ago Gasol got stripped for the ball and walked back up the court like he wanted to walk OFF the court.


Camby's also had a pretty good game going up against him.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

TripleDouble said:


> Camby's also had a pretty good game going up against him.


Not like he had much help in the post.


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