# Hinrich as starting PG



## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

With Hinrich starting at PG and Duhon coming off the bench and playing 5 fewer minutes than his season average, the Bulls are 2-0, averaging 108 ppg against two playoff teams, one of which (Grizzlies) lead the league in opponent PPG at 85.

Hinrich's stats during these games are 22 ppg, 6 apg (12:1 A/TO), 2.5 rpg, 1.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 60% FG (12.5 FGA/game), 40% 3PT (5 3PA/game), 91% FT (5.5 FTA/game).

Gordon's numbers are greatly improved and he seems more comfortable at all aspects of his game.

Those "Kirk can't run the team" myths were fun while they lasted.


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## settinUpShop (Jun 8, 2002)

This is the line-up that Skiles wanted going into preseason. I'm glad to see that we're back on that path, this bodes very well for both players, and for Duhon as well. He's better coming off the bench as someone who can distibute, defend, and run our team. 

A very nice development indeed.


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## PD (Sep 10, 2004)

dont' mean to be negative but only two games.


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## nanokooshball (Jan 22, 2005)

PD said:


> dont' mean to be negative but only two games.


better than the previous 8


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

That said, Du should be getting as much PT as possible. Right around 28-30 mpg. He's still our most consistent player and best on-ball PG defender.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Are people attributing Hinrich's improved play to starting at the 1?

It just seems to me he's trying hard again, after taking a few games off.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

VincentVega said:


> With Hinrich starting at PG and Duhon coming off the bench and playing more than 5 mpg fewer minutes than his season average, the Bulls are 2-0, averaging 108 ppg against two playoff teams, one of which (Grizzlies) lead the league in opponent PPG at 85.
> 
> Hinrich's stats during these games are 22 ppg, 6 apg (12:1 A/TO), 2.5 rpg, 1.5 spg, 0.5 bpg, 60% FG (12.5 FGA/game), 40% 3PT (5 3PA/game), 91% FT (5.5 FTA/game).
> 
> ...


2 games can erase years of proof to the contrary now...VV you generally reach pretty far in regards to kirk but this might just be a new record for you.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Of course I'm not making an empirical statement off of two games. But it is a nice, albeit limited, example of what I think can happen with KH at the 1 and BG at the 2 playing an uptempo game.

Like I've been saying for years, Hinrich is a fantastic uptempo PG, and Gordon is showing he can be a pretty damned good uptempo SG. The pairs' deficiencies on defense can in part be covered up by scoring a lot of points and keeping the defense continuously on their heels. Duhon comes in for stability, defense and a more half-court game.

PG -- Hinrich
SG -- Gordon
SF -- Deng
PF -- Nocioni
C -- Chandler 

1st guard off the bench: Duhon
Sweetney subs for Noc during slower-paced games.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Duhon finished the close game in MIL. I suppose he was playing PG in the 4th quarter when the Bulls wrapped that one up.

(not that any of this really matters. i'm just happy to see kirk back to his old self. let's hope the previous few games were the only vacation he takes this season.)


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

I think it also shows, the new line up in general, that you shouldn't take away from a strength (our depth at the wings and guard positions) to cover a weakness.

Letting the guards and wings play high octane minutes at their positions and putting average(?) big guys out there is better than playing guys out of position.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Unfortunately, I believe consistency will continue to plague Hinrich until he settles into a firm role on the court. PG, SG, SF, or a combination of all three......it's too much.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

VincentVega said:


> Unfortunately, I believe consistency will continue to plague Hinrich until he settles into a firm role on the court. PG, SG, SF, or a combination of all three......it's too much.


its not scott skiles job to make kirk a star, it is to win games. and if a side effect of that is kirk's ever changing role then so be it.

kirk has had starting gigs in which he had a role that was firm and ultimately it was determined his role should not not be that way...in my opinion if kirk should have any role its as a 2 who moves over as a one when its most helpful to the team.

i doubt this is anything more than an attempt to shake the team up , and appease ben for the time being with another shot at starting (something duhon prevents due to lack of size) and duhon will start again soon enough, with kirk at the 2.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> its not scott skiles job to make kirk a star, it is to win games. and if a side effect of that is kirk's ever changing role then so be it.


I never said it was Skiles' job to make Kirk a star. I don't think this team would win very many games if Kirk were made into a star (however that works). I merely think that if KH could get settled into a solid role and not have to juggle two or three positions and three or four opposing guards/forwards each game, he *and the team* would perform better. Of course KH has to be spread around a few positions at the current time -- I think this is a reason we're not a .500 ballclub. We need a better frontcourt so Deng and Noc can play exclusively on the wings (and Deng at some 2G).


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

If Hinrich isn't overdribbling, he is one of the best point guards in the league. He has everything else. Lately, he hasn't been overdribbling, and I just hope he is done with that bad habit. 

If Hinrich can run the point, that means we can start Gordon consistently, because they can crossmatch on defense. Which is more great news.

So if Hinrich can consistently run the point while not overdribbling and keeping everyone involved (like in the past two games), then the Bulls backcourt problems are nonexistent. They just need some big guys.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

VincentVega said:


> I never said it was Skiles' job to make Kirk a star. I don't think this team would win very many games if Kirk were made into a star (however that works). I merely think that if KH could get settled into a solid role and not have to juggle two or three positions and three or four opposing guards/forwards each game, he *and the team* would perform better. Of course KH has to be spread around a few positions at the current time -- I think this is a reason we're not a .500 ballclub. We need a better frontcourt so Deng and Noc can play exclusively on the wings (and Deng at some 2G).



why should kirk play just one spot?

no one else does except for duhon and even he slides over to defend 2's when he is paired with gordon.

everyone on the team juggles their resonsibilities and spreads out to cover other roles, versatility is actually an advantage for them.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> why should kirk play just one spot?


I never said he should play just one spot. I said he should settle into a solid role, which could (and probably should) include _some_ multi-positioning on his behalf, especially on defense. I think him playing SG for one quarter, and then switching gears to play PG for another, and then back and forth throughout the game while defending anyone from 6' PGs to 6'7" SFs during that time is to the detriment of Hinrich, and, thusly and obviously, to the team.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Da Grinch said:



> its not scott skiles job to make kirk a star, it is to win games. and if a side effect of that is kirk's ever changing role then so be it.


I think the point here is that when Kirk was on the merry-go-round of positions, the team was not winning games.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Illinoise is a great album, jnrjr.


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## david123 (Mar 11, 2005)

sufjan is the new indie superstar.. hyped to the point of nauseum (like the 00's century malkmus.. heh), but illinoise does have some delectable moments of absolute beauty. "come on! feel the illinoise" and "the predatory wasps of the palisades is out to get us!" are fantastic songs. 

illinoise > greetings from michigan > seven swans. 

ok.. back to bulls talk.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

And here comes the Kirk jinx :sigh:. Every time he puts together 2-3 good games in a row, somebody has to make a thread abt his AS-ability or how great he is or how the coach was putting him at a disadvantage......only to see Kirk quickly resort back to his old inconsistent self. Can we wait for AT LEAST 8-10 games before we judge Kirk or anybody else for that matter? 2 games are NOTHING. If Kirk can put together a couple of weeks worth of solid play while starting at PG.....then we can talk.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

SPMJ,

Are speculation and statistical evaluation not primary purposes of messageboards?


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

VincentVega said:


> Illinoise is a great album, jnrjr.



Yeah, I dig it. Probably my favorite of last year.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

It gets real interesting when you break Hinrich's production down by position played. According to 82games.com, his production at PG (+19.6 PER) is *significantly* greater than his production at SG (+12.7), and his production at SG is greater than his production at SF (+12.0). Hinrich's PER at PG is the highest of any player at any position on the roster, and the difference (+7.1) between Hinrich's PER at PG and the PER of opposing PGs he guards is the highest of any player playing any position on the team.

In regards to Hinrich's defense, he is statistically better (+12.5 opponent PER) than Duhon (+13.0 opponent PER) when guarding opposing PGs. In regards to his defensive versatility, Hinrich's defense of SFs is statistically better than the 6'7" Nocioni's.

Hinrich needs to play most of his minutes at PG.

http://www.82games.com


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

*More from 82games.com*

Hinrich's "passing rating" (9.2) is slightly better than Duhon's (8.8), and their "hand rating" is almost identical (20.0 vs. 20.4).


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

*Re: More from 82games.com*

Aside from the stats, I think it's clear watching the games that Hinrich plays his best when he plays PG. He just looks more comfortable and seems to know his role better. He does overdribble some, but I think that knock on him is overblown sometimes. He is clearly an above average PG, and I feel could be an all star at some point. 

I'm tired of this team sticking square pegs in round holes. It works sometimes, but it can't in the long-term. I understand the roster is incomplete and there is some necessity to have people playing out of position _sometimes_, but I think it's gone on too much. 

Kirk at the 3? No thank you. Let's give the kid some continuity.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

jnrjr79,


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

VincentVega said:


> It gets real interesting when you break Hinrich's production down by position played. According to 82games.com, his production at PG (+19.6 PER) is *significantly* greater than his production at SG (+12.7), and his production at SG is greater than his production at SF (+12.0). Hinrich's PER at PG is the highest of any player at any position on the roster, and the difference (+7.1) between Hinrich's PER at PG and the PER of opposing PGs he guards is the highest of any player playing any position on the team.
> 
> In regards to Hinrich's defense, he is statistically better (+12.5 opponent PER) than Duhon (+13.0 opponent PER) when guarding opposing PGs. In regards to his defensive versatility, Hinrich's defense of SFs is statistically better than the 6'7" Nocioni's.
> 
> ...


Didn't 82games.com tell us that we'd actually get BETTER without Eddy Curry? I prefer watching the games so that I can see things like frontcourt presence. If I went to 82games.com to form an opinion I might think Tyson Chandler was a center lol. I'm not disagreeing that Kirk is better at PG, I'm just saying 82games.com is not as good as watching the games.


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

VincentVega said:


> jnrjr79,


Of course there is also something to be said for reading a whole thread before posting LOL.


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## nanokooshball (Jan 22, 2005)

Pippenatorade said:


> Didn't 82games.com tell us that we'd actually get BETTER without Eddy Curry? I prefer watching the games so that I can see things like frontcourt presence. If I went to 82games.com to form an opinion I might think Tyson Chandler was a center lol. I'm not disagreeing that Kirk is better at PG, I'm just saying 82games.com is not as good as watching the games.


I think, along with many of the posters here, that the lack of AD in the frontcourt is the part that bothers us the most rather than missing curry


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

It should be pointed out that Kirks teams have always been better with him as a 2 guard. That simply has been proven. So if we are about the T-E-A-M, and not about Kirks production, that should be taken into account. It should also be pointed out that Milwaukee and Memphis didnt have their starting PGs either night. So too walk around after 2 games is ludicrous. Hinrich played great. He was tremendous and yes, should be given a clear run at the PG spot for awhile. But with the way the team is currently configured, Hinrich, Gordon and Duhon can not possibly move forward as a unit together and win championships. If Hinrich is the 1, they need a big 2 to play with him. If Kirk is the SG then I would call the Clips and ask about Livingston. I would rather keep Hinrich and deal Gordon personally, but theres one thing that bothers me, Kirk has never gotten it done at the end of the game while Gordon has. Either way, the Bulls are going to need to get a big guard. But if Kirk is the 1, so be it, if it makes the team better over 82 games, not 2. But historically, including last year, it has never been the case. Not even at Kansas.


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

rlucas4257 said:


> It should be pointed out that Kirks teams have always been better with him as a 2 guard. That simply has been proven. So if we are about the T-E-A-M, and not about Kirks production, that should be taken into account. It should also be pointed out that Milwaukee and Memphis didnt have their starting PGs either night. So too walk around after 2 games is ludicrous. Hinrich played great. He was tremendous and yes, should be given a clear run at the PG spot for awhile. But with the way the team is currently configured, Hinrich, Gordon and Duhon can not possibly move forward as a unit together and win championships. If Hinrich is the 1, they need a big 2 to play with him. If Kirk is the SG then I would call the Clips and ask about Livingston. I would rather keep Hinrich and deal Gordon personally, but theres one thing that bothers me, Kirk has never gotten it done at the end of the game while Gordon has. Either way, the Bulls are going to need to get a big guard. But if Kirk is the 1, so be it, if it makes the team better over 82 games, not 2. But historically, including last year, it has never been the case. Not even at Kansas.


Even accepting what you've said, I don't know if a connection has been drawn. Say the Bulls have a better winning % with Kirk at the 2 rather than the 1. Do we know it is _because_ Kirk was at the 2, or was there something else going on during that stretch of games?


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## Pippenatorade (Dec 29, 2005)

nanokooshball said:


> I think, along with many of the posters here, that the lack of AD in the frontcourt is the part that bothers us the most rather than missing curry


I miss both. AD was SUPER!


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

jnrjr79 said:


> Even accepting what you've said, I don't know if a connection has been drawn. Say the Bulls have a better winning % with Kirk at the 2 rather than the 1. Do we know it is _because_ Kirk was at the 2, or was there something else going on during that stretch of games?



There are so many other factors that who knows. But the counter is that maybe the Bulls won the last 2 games cause Gordon was the starting 2 guard, or cause Noc was better, or cause Malik Allen put on black shoes, and not Kirk at the 1. I mean, who knows? But KU went to the championships and I believe a final 4 with Kirk as a 2. Not with him as a 1. The Bulls won 48 games with him as a 2, after going 0-9, and the terrible season with him before, as a 1. VV is a Hinrich fan, not really a Bulls fan, and its not enough for him to have Hinrich be on a good team as a successful 2, he wants him to succeed as a 1. And that is ok but that is his agenda. But this isnt about Hinrichs "numbers", this is about W/Ls for the Bulls. Hinrich played great the last 2 games. Who is to say he would have played any worse as a 2 the last 2 games? The simple fact is, we are in year 3 of the Hinrich era and its not even close, the BULLS are a better team with him as a 2. Does that mean going forward Hinrich wont have success as a PG? No, he could and very well might. He does seem to have found some energy from the position change. But its 2 games, and looking at the big picture, including college, means its likely he will revert back to more minutes at the 2 soon, cause ultimately in the big picture, the Bulls and his teams have him better there. But for Gods sake, dont play him at the 3 spot. Thats not fair to Hinrich at any level at all.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

rlucas4257 said:


> It should be pointed out that Kirks teams have always been better with him as a 2 guard. That simply has been proven. So if we are about the T-E-A-M, and not about Kirks production, that should be taken into account.


Kirk's teams haven't ever had a consistent and/or legit SG (he's had to play the position himself), so this argument is fundamentally flawed. Gordon is showing signs he can be an effective SG in an uptempo environment, so long as Hinrich helps him defend the perimeter.



> It should also be pointed out that Milwaukee and Memphis didnt have their starting PGs either night.


And we didn't have our starting C and best post defender.



> but theres one thing that bothers me, Kirk has never gotten it done at the end of the game while Gordon has.


Last season Gordon proved this point. This season, not so much.

This season to date, Hinrich is outperforming Gordon in the last 5 minutes of games (again, http://www.82games.com, this time their "clutch stats" database). Hinrich shoots better, takes more varied shots, draws over three times as many fouls, distributes the ball better and takes care of the ball infinitely better than Gordon. In fact, Gordon has a dreadfully low "hands rating" (3.6) and the first negative "passing rating" I've ever seen on that site (-0.8). That said, I still like Gordon late in the game and I feel he hasn't gotten enough minutes there this year.



> But historically, including last year, it has never been the case. Not even at Kansas.


Ask any Kansas fan, and you'll get the same answer. Despite him starting at SG his final two seasons at KU due to Aaron Miles' inability to play anthing other than PG, Hinrich is regarded as a PG. Most KU fans consider him to be the best or second-best PG in Kansas history (with Jo Jo White being #1 in many of the older fans' opinions).


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

Agreed on the 3. I think everyone knows that it is lunacy and can't work with any regularity.

The reason I want to see Hinrich at the 1 is because I want Gordon starting, not Duhon. I think Gordon looks much more comfortable in the starting role. I see Gordon as a starter and a potential impact player/star. Duhon to me is an excellent backup 1.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

rlucas4257 said:


> VV is a Hinrich fan, not really a Bulls fan, and its not enough for him to have Hinrich be on a good team as a successful 2, he wants him to succeed as a 1.


Here we go again. It's not my fault Hinrich can play PG very well, despite what you said about him earlier.

And if I've said it once, I've said it a million times: Hinrich was a PG playing SG his final two years in college because that was best for the TEAM, as Aaron Miles was too talented not to start. The catch was that Miles could play only one position -- PG. Hinrich will always be known at KU as a point guard. Don't believe me? Ask the other KU fans on the board. Or just live in Lawrence for a while.


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## Bulls96 (Jun 25, 2003)

Kirk is a very good and unique basketball player and he could play several roles during the game. It is all up to the coach; efficiently utilize Kirk's skills in conjunction with other available sources. Ben is in the same "shoes". 

I don't know how to figure out, what is the best suitable position for the above mentioned players without having the remaining two important pieces (C and PF). IMO, it is a useless exercise.

I am sure that Ben and Kirk have a great future written all over their foreheads.

I hope they will stay Bulls for the rest of their carrier, regardless what position they need to address.


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## bre9 (Jan 8, 2006)

Kirk is just a great all around player he play's the 1. very well and the 2. really well. He played pg his whole rookie year when jamal crawford was at sg. Kirk was good. being at pg he still getting his points and with ben gordon it's more scoring combined. there just like detroit starting guards chauncey and rip h.. chauncey is at the 1. and score a lot of points combined with a pure shooter like rip, and they are small like ben , kirk, and duhon. i believe we can do it with are small guards.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

Funny thing is that some of people who said Kirk playing at the point has nothing to do with recent sucess are the same people who yelled out for years "For JC to play at his maximum potential, he should play PG".

So now that VV said Kirk is at his best when he is playing PG, and all of sudden he should be good at anything Scott threw at him, PG, SG or even SF. Hmm.....

Aren't we all on the same boat when we fisrt draft Gordon, this would be our back court for years to come.
Kirk at PG, and Ben at SG.

Now that we have some success ( yes only 2 games, i know), why can't we keep our fingure crossed for some good stuff?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

lgtwins said:


> Funny thing is that some of people who said Kirk playing at the point has nothing to do with recent sucess are the same people who yelled out for years "For JC to play at his maximum potential, he should play PG".
> 
> So now that VV said Kirk is at his best when he is playing PG, and all of sudden he should be good at anything Scott threw at him, PG, SG or even SF. Hmm.....
> 
> ...



by my unofficial count the bulls are 20-55(18-46 , 0-9 , 2-0) with kirk as their starting pg these last few years, significantly better with him at the starting 2.

my guess is the 2 wins had more to do with kirk shooting 51% than his ability to run an effective offense, it helps when when you are being defended by a couple of backup pg's.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

Da Grinch said:


> by my unofficial count the bulls are 20-55(18-46 , 0-9 , 2-0) with kirk as their starting pg these last few years, significantly better with him at the starting 2.
> 
> my guess is the 2 wins had more to do with kirk shooting 51% than his ability to run an effective offense, it helps when when you are being defended by a couple of backup pg's.


Becasue starting SF Jerome Williams and starting SG Jamal Crawford were such great surrounding talent...


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> Becasue starting SF Jerome Williams and starting SG Jamal Crawford were such great surrounding talent...


since jc and jyd's departure the bulls are 2-9 with kirk as a starting pg...actually a lower winning % then his 20-55 overall record at pg


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> my guess is the 2 wins had more to do with kirk shooting 51% than his ability to run an effective offense, it helps when when you are being defended by a couple of backup pg's.


During those games Hinrich was being guarded by Mo Williams, Michael Redd, Eddie Jones and Bobby Jackson. Hardly "backup" talent.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

Da Grinch said:


> since jc and jyd's departure the bulls are 2-9 with kirk as a starting pg...actually a lower winning % then his 20-55 overall record at pg


Now just imagine if we win the next two. 

I'm excited...


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

VincentVega said:


> During those games Hinrich was being guarded by Mo Williams, Michael Redd, Eddie Jones and Bobby Jackson. Hardly "backup" talent.



u sure? i am certain damon stoudamire and tj ford are the starting pg's for those teams...where were they on those nights...did kirk play against them?...or did their backups start pg that night?


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> u sure? i am certain damon stoudamire and tj ford are the starting pg's for those teams...where were they on those nights...did kirk play against them?...or did their backups start pg that night?


Opposing SGs usually guard Hinrich. Opposing PGs usually guard Duhon and Gordon. 

Do you not watch the games?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

VincentVega said:


> Opposing SGs usually guard Hinrich. Opposing PGs usually guard Duhon and Gordon.
> 
> Do you not watch the games?


sure i do ...do you , or was it my imagination 2 posts ago when you were mentioning backup or lack thereof you named mo williams and bobby jackson ...what position do they play again?

and on healthy teams do they start?


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Da Grinch said:


> sure i do ...do you , or was it my imagination 2 posts ago when you were mentioning backup or lack thereof you named mo williams and bobby jackson ...what position do they play again?
> 
> and on healthy teams do they start?


Mo Williams is a starting-caliber point guard. Not as good as TJ Ford obviously, but he could nonetheless start on a few teams around the league. He's lit up many teams this year on both sides of the ball. Bobby Jackson is still a decent talent, even at the ripe old age of 32. He destroyed Baron Davis a few days ago and before he was hurt last month he put a clown suit on Chris Paul.

Previously you had stated that Hinrich was guarded by a "couple of backup PGs". I don't mean to rain on your parade, but this is obviously a false statement in one sense or another, seeing as how A) Williams and Jackson, while not initial PG starters on their respective clubs, are in fact starting-caliber PGs, and B) Hinrich was guarded by Michael Redd and Eddie Jones -- two 6'6" SGs -- the vast majority of the time he was on the court, not Jackson, Williams or any other point guard.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

Kirk is at his best when he is playing PG. 

Jamal is supposedly at his best when he is playing PG.

One is back at his position (Thanks to other Bull's recent play at SG) and the other is still playing out of his natural position.

Let's just get over it. OK?


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Perhaps Kirk is at his best @ PG.

The important question is are the Bulls at their best when Kirk is the PG.

Yah, two wins in a row, but Duhon was the MVP of the end of the game against the Bucks.

If Kirk is hitting his shot and giving 110%, he's really, really good.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> Perhaps Kirk is at his best @ PG.
> 
> The important question is are the Bulls at their best when Kirk is the PG.
> 
> ...


I don't have any problem with either Du or Kirk at PG. And to answer your question, I do think that Bulls are at their best with Kirk at PG. 

The only we move Kirk to SG was for the best of the Bulls and we have to admit that Du at PG and Kirk at Sg was temporary thing (if not, I do think we are in big trouble despite last yezr's success). 

Even though Du has been terrific this year, Du-Kirk backcourt as a group has nothing special when you compared them against the league. On the other hand, even though we still have height issue, Kirk-Gordon backcourt certainly has something for other teams to think about it playing against us.

Instead of outplaying other teams backsourt on the defense, we probably better try to outscore them with Kirk and Gordon backcourt. And it is certainly possible with Kirk and Gordon both going at the same time although as of now both Kirk and Gordon have consistency problem.

Anyway, with current roster I do think the solution for our roster problem is to outscore other team's backcourt with Kirk and Gordon, not necessarily stopping other team's backcourt.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Hidden in this debate is the improvement of Gordon since he's been starting. Duhon and Gordon would be and incredibly small backcourt so Hinrich's positional switch may not be as much about him being better than Duhon but rather him and Gordon being better than the other two backcourt permutations.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> Hidden in this debate is the improvement of Gordon since he's been starting.


I agree. Its very promising. Opens us up to be able to make more trades I would think, without leaving us devastated at the G.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Game 3 with Kirk at PG and Ben starting at SG. Result? Another high-scoring win over a Raps team that has been playing pretty well of late. Hinrich with 25 pts, 11 dimes, 5 boards and Gordon with 19 points and 4 nice dimes. The pair shoot 50% from the field and 60% from three. Both guards come up big in crunchtime. Gordon gets his first double-digit fourth quarter of the year.

Hmmm.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

VincentVega said:


> Game 3 with Kirk at PG and Ben starting at SG. Result? Another high-scoring win over a Raps team that has been playing pretty well of late. Hinrich with 25 pts, 11 dimes, 5 boards and Gordon with 19 points and 4 nice dimes. The pair shoot 50% from the field and 60% from three. Both guards come up big in crunchtime. Gordon gets his first double-digit fourth quarter of the year.
> 
> Hmmm.


I like this arrangement. I've always been of the opinion that if Gordon got it together in the first quarter of games this would be the best starting backcourt. As it is, Hinrich and Gordon are providing us with more offensive spark at the start of games and Duhon's playing well in his reserve role. I'm wary of reading too much into a relative small sample size, but my hunch is that this is the way to go, and the early returns are encouraging.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Hinrich's production at PG has risen to +19.8 PER (highest on the team), and the difference between Hinrich's PER at PG and the PER of opposing PGs he guards is now +8.2 (highest on the team). The difference between Gordon's PER at SG and the PER of opposing SGs he guards is now +0.2, which I believe is the first time any differential of his has been positive all season.

Stats illustrate what we see on the court. Let's hope they continue to improve.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

VincentVega said:


> Mo Williams is a starting-caliber point guard. Not as good as TJ Ford obviously, but he could nonetheless start on a few teams around the league. He's lit up many teams this year on both sides of the ball. Bobby Jackson is still a decent talent, even at the ripe old age of 32. He destroyed Baron Davis a few days ago and before he was hurt last month he put a clown suit on Chris Paul.
> 
> Previously you had stated that Hinrich was guarded by a "couple of backup PGs". I don't mean to rain on your parade, but this is obviously a false statement in one sense or another, seeing as how A) Williams and Jackson, while not initial PG starters on their respective clubs, are in fact starting-caliber PGs, and B) Hinrich was guarded by Michael Redd and Eddie Jones -- two 6'6" SGs -- the vast majority of the time he was on the court, not Jackson, Williams or any other point guard.


by my count using nba.com 

bobby and mo have started 208 out of a possible 677games and not a single one when the considered incumbant pg was healthy ....so you say one thing but their coaches obviously have a different opinion, especially considering the better of the 2 williams couldn't even start ahead of arroyo who is also at the current time a backup .

also the current kirk starting thing has much less to do with his ability at pg but moreso ben's ability not to stink up the joint at the 2 ...lest we forget everytime since gordon's addition to the team kirk has been the starting pg , only to go back soley because gordon couldn't cut it in a starting role.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Remember, Grinch -- Kirk mainly guards opposing SGs, not opposing PGs. Keep your focus.


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## Hustle (Dec 17, 2003)

Game 4- Hinrich puts up 17 points and 17 ASSISTS!


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Hustle said:


> Game 4- Hinrich puts up 17 points and 17 ASSISTS!


Bulls lose.

Which is more important?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Bulls are 3-1 with Hinrich at the point, and he is playing some great basketball. See my signature for the stats. And yes, if he hits another slump, I'll take it out quickly, so let's all root for Hinrich so I can keep my signature! :biggrin:


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

Bulls are now 8-4 with Hinrich starting at PG. How am I not surprised.


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