# Why do people insist Ron Artest start at PF!?



## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

Dumb idea, real dumb. I remember 2yrs ago I signed on to clutchfans.net in an attempt to convince fools that starting Battier at PF will fail miserably. Naturally they didn't listen and Boozer had a 30/20 game in the first game of the season which resulted in an L. Battier starting at PF was never seen again.

We're a defensive oriented team. Defensive teams don't do small ball. We play big ball. Yes our PF's are small outside Scola, but Hayes and Landry have a more traditional skillset for a PF, and they lack the perimeter skills to play them at SF. Artest has perimeter skills. He can bully other SF and SG anywhere on the court. Why would we take him away from the mismatch he creates every night!? Most SF aren't strong enough to handle him and he's quick enough to stay with any wing player. We can wear down the star players who often hide and roam on defense(Kobe, Wade, Lebron) because they have to stay with T-Mac or Artest.

I don't have a problem if he comes off the bench and we keep last year's starting line-up. He will finish games anyway. But starting him at PF is absurd. I could live with him seeing PF minutes for a few stretches if the matchup favors us(Dallas, GS) like what the Celtics did a few times with House, Allen, Posey, Pierce, KG during the finals.

Otherwise than that we would be better off playing big ball. I prefer to have T-Mac at PG with Battier and Artest on the wings. We use a line-up like that and we could force a coach to make a decision with guys like Chris Paul, Parker, and D-Williams since we could just abuse the size matchups all day. Furthermore Artest or Battier are quick enough to stay in front of anyone(or long enough where they could step back and still effectively contest a shot). Besides, we have Yao, Mutombo, and Dorsey back there to turn away anyone who manages to get to the basket(not to mention Hayes or Scola will be just outside that circle). We'll be grabbing all the boards with a lineup 6'7" and up.


----------



## Legend-Like (Mar 25, 2006)

If we go small, Artest can play the 4 but honestly Luis is our starting 4. Scola is more productive as a starter than a bench player and keep in mind Shane just came off of ankle surgery.


----------



## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

Battier at PF didn't work because Battier is a terrible rebounder and isn't very strong. Artest weighs 250 and is twice the rebounder Battier is. He has played significant minutes at PF before and done well. He is strong enough to hold position in the post, and his quick hands cause a lot of turnovers. He is very likely a better defensive PF than Scola, who was generally abused by opposing 4's last season.

While T-Mac at PG might be create a favorable mismatch for us on the offensive end, it would be a nightmare for us defensively. Artest at this point in his career is not staying in front of guys like Chris Paul. Neither is Battier. Baron Davis for stretches, maybe, but no one quicker than that. And Battier is silent enough offensively that teams could probably afford to guard him with a Deron. Artest at PF creates just as favorable a mismatch on the offensive end -- there are very few 4's in the league who can guard him, and they'll have to pay for doubling Yao hard -- without giving up anything defensively.

It also allows us to have our four best players on the court at the same time.

You're right about how it would take away Artest's biggest strength -- perimeter defense. And Artest at the 2 and 3 would allow T-Mac to rest more in the regular season. And Battier probably could guard more than half the starting point guards in this league.

So both options have their advantages. Neither is a ridiculous suggestion. Although the starting lineup may remain consistent throughout the season, I think Artest's minutes at each position will depend largely on the nightly matchups.


----------



## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

Hakeem said:


> Battier at PF didn't work because Battier is a terrible rebounder and isn't very strong. Artest weighs 250 and is twice the rebounder Battier is. He has played significant minutes at PF before and done well. He is strong enough to hold position in the post, and his quick hands cause a lot of turnovers. He is very likely a better defensive PF than Scola, who was generally abused by opposing 4's last season.
> 
> While T-Mac at PG might be create a favorable mismatch for us on the offensive end, it would be a nightmare for us defensively. Artest at this point in his career is not staying in front of guys like Chris Paul. Neither is Battier. Baron Davis for stretches, maybe, but no one quicker than that. And Battier is silent enough offensively that teams could probably afford to guard him with a Deron. Artest at PF creates just as favorable a mismatch on the offensive end -- there are very few 4's in the league who can guard him, and they'll have to pay for doubling Yao hard -- without giving up anything defensively.
> 
> ...


That's what I'm hoping. I just don't want him seeing consistent minutes at that slot. I think Artest at PF enables perimeter stars to roam around free and save energy for offense when we could be attacking them with Artest and/or T-Mac. Scola could hold his own on both ends against any PF. Last season he was making significant progress on both ends and now he has his feet wet I expect him to improve. Now that he's used to NBA refs he should know what defensive maneuvers work and fail.


----------



## tmacyaokobe1 (Jun 22, 2008)

playing against run and gun teams wouldn't be a beat idea to play Artest at the 4, It would be a bad idea to play Artest to play the 4 if the rockets were up against the Spurs or Celtics or halfcourt oriented teams like those


----------



## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

tmacyaokobe1 said:


> playing against run and gun teams wouldn't be a beat idea to play Artest at the 4, It would be a bad idea to play Artest to play the 4 if the rockets were up against the Spurs or Celtics or halfcourt oriented teams like those


Even against the Spurs, Yao guards Duncan anyway. Artest would have to guard Oberto, which wouldn't be a huge problem since Oberto does nothing. It'd more of a problem for the Spurs, with Duncan having to step out and guard Artest.


----------



## tmacyaokobe1 (Jun 22, 2008)

Hakeem said:


> Even against the Spurs, Yao guards Duncan anyway. Artest would have to guard Oberto, which wouldn't be a huge problem since Oberto does nothing. It'd more of a problem for the Spurs, with Duncan having to step out and guard Artest.


It would only work if the spurs are playing small and Yao only guards Duncan in the 4th they want to stay away from foul trouble.


----------



## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

If we play San Antonio in the playoffs, the only two guys who should be realistically guarding Duncan are Yao and Deke. Maybe Hayes for stretches if fouls become a concern.

While Scola is adequate defensively against PFs, he's still far from spectacular and hasnt separated himself from Artest in that regard.


----------



## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

tmacyaokobe1 said:


> It would only work if the spurs are playing small and Yao only guards Duncan in the 4th they want to stay away from foul trouble.


Yao guards Duncan most of the time. It's Duncan who only guards Yao in the fourth.


----------



## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

Pimped Out said:


> While Scola is adequate defensively against PFs, he's still far from spectacular and hasnt separated himself from Artest in that regard.


David West destroyed Scola. It was embarrassing. Scola seemed to struggle defensively against every single good PF we played. I recall a couple of good stretches against Boozer and that's about it. (It was almost certainly more than that, but the point is that Artest can probably guard most of these guys better.)


----------



## tmacyaokobe1 (Jun 22, 2008)

Hakeem said:


> Yao guards Duncan most of the time. It's Duncan who only guards Yao in the fourth.


I think it might be more of the other way around, if Duncan guards Yao, then he should guard David West, but that isn't the case and Duncan doesn't guard Yao throughout the 4 quarters, he only guards him in the 4th.


----------



## mtlk (Apr 25, 2005)

*He shoud play only SG and SF anytime on the court.*


----------



## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

tmacyaokobe1 said:


> I think it might be more of the other way around, if Duncan guards Yao, then he should guard David West, but that isn't the case and Duncan doesn't guard Yao throughout the 4 quarters, he only guards him in the 4th.


We're saying the same thing.


----------



## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

Spaceman Spiff said:


> We're a defensive oriented team. *1. *Defensive teams don't do small ball. We play big ball. Yes our PF's are small outside Scola, but Hayes and Landry have a more traditional skillset for a PF, and they lack the perimeter skills to play them at SF. Artest has perimeter skills. He can bully other SF and SG anywhere on the court. Why would we take him away from the mismatch he creates every night!? Most SF aren't strong enough to handle him and he's quick enough to stay with any wing player. We can wear down the star players who often hide and roam on defense(Kobe, Wade, Lebron) because they have to stay with T-Mac or Artest.
> 
> *2.* I don't have a problem if he comes off the bench and we keep last year's starting line-up. He will finish games anyway. But starting him at PF is absurd. I could live with him seeing PF minutes for a few stretches if the matchup favors us(Dallas, GS) like what the Celtics did a few times with House, Allen, Posey, Pierce, KG during the finals.


1. Last season's Celtics, one of the best defensive teams of all time, almost always played small ball in the most crucial parts of the game, playing Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Posey, and Garnett. Besides for that lineup, the Celtics also went to numerous small ball lineups, with Cassell, House, and Tony/Ray Allen on the floor at the same time, or with Powe and Davis on the floor at the same time, who are both undersized PFs. 

You just proved why Artest at PF is a good idea. He has perimeter skills, definitely. And so does every other SG/SF in the league. On offense, if he's playing PF, he can take PFs off the dribble or shoot open threes with the space they give him. His three point shooting would spread the floor for Yao's post-ups and T-Mac's drives. And like you said, the Rocket PFs are small. Artest weighs more and is stronger than all of them and only gives up an inch to Scola and Landry. Plus, in his career he's shown he can guard any position effectively.

Battier can defend just about any SG/SF. I definitely trust Battier guarding the high scoring wings. He's a fine option, and don't forget, Artest can switch on and guard those high scoring wings. 

2. There is no way you bring a player like Artest off the bench, seeing how good he is, his style of play, and his attitude. He doesn't have the spark type of game like a guy like Ginobili, and plus he is extremely unpredictable. You don't wanna risk him blowing up cause he hates coming off the bench. 

The lineup should be Alston, McGrady, Battier, Artest, and Yao. That way you put your five best players on the floor. Battier or Artest shouldn't be benched because one is "out of position". Those are two of your five best players and two of the best three defenders. Anyways, in this time in the NBA, you can get away with playing players out of their traditional positions, and lots of times, it works to the team's advantage. In this case, it should. With the type of space Yao takes up in the paint, and the space T-Mac needs to drive and make plays, you need three point shooters. By putting Artest at PF, you have four players on the floor who are good at threes. Yao would have be playing one-on-one in the post, and if a double team came, one of those guys would be open and would be able to knock down the three. Same goes for T-Mac's drives.

Artest can guard PF better than anyone on this team, and can probably guard anybody better than anybody, also, so that shouldn't even be a question.


----------



## jdiggidy (Jun 21, 2003)

Spaceman Spiff in da houze and right on point! Key words "if the matchup favors us".

I don't think anyone blogging on this thread thinks Ron Ron should start 82 games at the PF especially after seeing our boy Scola dominating in the Olympics. Artest should get minutes at the PF only "if the matchup favors us".

Nuff said.


----------



## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

LamarButler said:


> You just proved why Artest at PF is a good idea. He has perimeter skills, definitely. And so does every other SG/SF in the league. On offense, if he's playing PF, he can take PFs off the dribble or shoot open threes with the space they give him. His three point shooting would spread the floor for Yao's post-ups and T-Mac's drives. And like you said, the Rocket PFs are small. Artest weighs more and is stronger than all of them and only gives up an inch to Scola and Landry. Plus, in his career he's shown he can guard any position effectively.
> 
> Battier can defend just about any SG/SF. I definitely trust Battier guarding the high scoring wings. He's a fine option, and don't forget, Artest can switch on and guard those high scoring wings.
> 
> ...


This is the type of thinking I fear some in the coaching staff might have. I'd rather Artest beat up on SF's and SG's inside rather than taking big men outside. We're also deeper on the perimeter with Artest. *We didn't bring him in to be another undersized PF. We brought him in to be that needed swingman who will enable T-Mac to take longer rests.*

Another thing is our best 5 includes Scola not Battier. With Scola in nobody gets to rest on defense. He's capable of averaging 15ppg and can pick up the slack for anyone and have a 20-24pt game any given night.

IMO Artest won't be anymore effective on a PF than Chuck Hayes. We already have 3 PF's who all bring something different to the table for an opponent. Scola is better at scoring against big men inside than Artest, Hayes is at least the same or better at defending PF's, and Landry is more explosive around the basket and finishing. The fact that Artest can shoot the 3 is not a big enough reason to make him a full-time PF.


----------

