# Pax Offers Gordon, PJ, 1st for Gasol?



## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

http://www.dailysouthtown.com/sports/226639,241SPT9.article

Hmm...it's taken me awhile to be happy with Gordon, which I finally am. I think I'd rather trade Deng.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

HELL NO!! what are u thinking PAX!? or smokin?


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

lougehrig said:


> http://www.dailysouthtown.com/sports/226639,241SPT9.article
> 
> Hmm...it's taken me awhile to be happy with Gordon, which I finally am. I think I'd rather trade Deng.


I would really prefer Deng, but I'm not even sure I like that too much for Gasol. Haven't we had enough of the 2001 Draft alumni?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Oh please let this happen.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

As long as its not the Knicks' first round pick (or if it is the pick, with some significant protection), I'd totally do that deal. 

I'd still much rather include Deng than Gordon, though. 

If we trade Gordon, would looking into Mo Pete make sense?


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## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! (Jun 10, 2003)

To clarify: can we trade our pick this year with the NY swap rights without getting a #1 back? Sam Smith seemed to indicate not..


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)




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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> If we trade Gordon, would looking into Mo Pete make sense?


Yes.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Mo Pete reminds me of a pre knee injury Ron Mercer.
(That's not a total diss in my book)

He'd be an exceptional pickup as a 6th man if we can keep Gordon and make a Gasol trade. Perhaps a piece that puts us over the top. As a starter replacing Gordon, I think he'll make us cry.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

How often does the Daily Southtown get the inside scoop? This deal basically reshuffles the chairs on the Titanic. Who provides our outside shooting and takes our clutch shots in this scenario?


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

Any Gasol trade involving Gordon, Deng, and Hinrich is a bad one, imo. Hope Paxson waits this out.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Since it's the Southtown (and like SecretAgent says, probably not a scoop) how about some more wild speculation:

PJ + Thabo for Morris Peterson and Rasho Nestorovic. I actually don't think the surging Raptors would do this, because despite the savings from PJ's expiring contract for Rasho's longer one, Rasho has pretty decent value for them.

Still, suppose this happened and we did Deng, Duhon, and change for Gasol. I'm dreaming, but that'd have a pretty good chance of getting us into the finals I think.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

And no, as if it needed to be said, I still don't think Gordon should be traded for Gasol. Especially not Gordon plus the pick.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

Frankensteiner said:


> Any Gasol trade involving Gordon, Deng, and Hinrich is a bad one, imo. Hope Paxson waits this out.


How would you propose the team make a big move if you don't wanna trade any of those guys? Or should that be taken to mean you don't really think a big move is necessary for the team to win big?


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

MikeDC said:


> Mo Pete reminds me of a pre knee injury Ron Mercer.
> (That's not a total diss in my book)
> 
> He'd be an exceptional pickup as a 6th man if we can keep Gordon and make a Gasol trade. Perhaps a piece that puts us over the top. As a starter replacing Gordon, I think he'll make us cry.


I don't think we are going to find anyone to "replace" Gordon as a starter. Gasol "replaces" Gordon and then the rest of the guys just fill in the void to the best of their ability.

Mo Pete is a perimeter threat, he's a vet, he's long, and he can defend. And Skiles likes him.

Losing Gordon is going to hurt no matter how we slice it. But in my opinion, the benefit outweighs the detriment from a team perspective.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

I've been clamoring for a Gasol trade for a while now, and I'd be thrilled if it happened. As long as it's not Deng AND Gordon and a pick, I'm fine with any other of the permutations that've been floated here.

It is exceedingly rare for a player of Gasol's abilities to be available at what is a relatively young age. His foot injury (the so-called Martha's Vineyard metatarsal fracture) was a fluke and it seems to be well behind him. He's one of the top 3 or 4 true low-post players in the league, he's a great passer, he's an underrated defender, and he was the best player in the tournament at the World's. He will do wonders for our spacing, he won't compromise our defense whatsoever, and on an individual basis I think he will bring out the best in Wallace and speed Thomas's development. It would hurt to lose Gordon, but Gasol's presence will make things a lot easier for whatever guards are left on our team after the trade.

It's a no-brainer. I think it makes the Bulls the favorites out of the East *this year*, and in the longer term, it gives us a much better chance to compete with LeBron, Dwight, and Dwyane.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

Frankensteiner said:


> Any Gasol trade involving Gordon, Deng, and Hinrich is a bad one, imo. Hope Paxson waits this out.


I can only assume this means that you want to stand pat and just forget about Gasol.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> I've been clamoring for a Gasol trade for a while now, and I'd be thrilled if it happened. As long as it's not Deng AND Gordon and a pick, I'm fine with any other of the permutations that've been floated here.
> 
> It is exceedingly rare for a player of Gasol's abilities to be available at what is a relatively young age. His foot injury (the so-called Martha's Vineyard metatarsal fracture) was a fluke and it seems to be well behind him. He's one of the top 3 or 4 true low-post players in the league, he's a great passer, he's an underrated defender, and he was the best player in the tournament at the World's. He will do wonders for our spacing, he won't compromise our defense whatsoever, and on an individual basis I think he will bring out the best in Wallace and speed Thomas's development. It would hurt to lose Gordon, but Gasol's presence will make things a lot easier for whatever guards are left on our team after the trade.
> 
> It's a no-brainer. I think it makes the Bulls the favorites out of the East *this year*, and in the longer term, it gives us a much better chance to compete with LeBron, Dwight, and Dwyane.


I couldn't agree more and I'm glad to see you post and weigh in.


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## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

Babble-On said:


> How would you propose the team make a big move if you don't wanna trade any of those guys? Or should that be taken to mean you don't really think a big move is necessary for the team to win big?


That's why I've been saying Sweetney for Gasol straight up all along. I mean, why give up our good players?


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## charlietyra (Dec 1, 2002)

Not to rub salt in any wounds but if we had JR Smith, Gordon would be expendable. We would get the big guy (Gasol) and also have our big #2 guard who can score. 

JR got 20 off the bench yesterday including 6 for 10 from three point land.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Gordon + PJ for Gasol is a fair trade, although the Bulls will not find it easy to replace Ben. It's easy to treat PJ like he's just an add-on. But in fact he produces significant salary savings for Memphis next year. Adding a 1st round pick to the trade tips the balance a bit in Memphis's direction, particularly if the pick is an unprotected NY pick. Even though the Bulls would be overpaying, I think its worthwhile.

Maybe Thalbo has been getting more playing time so Paxson can get a better feel for whether he can eventually step into the shooting guard spot.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

charlietyra said:


> Not to rub salt in any wounds but if we had JR Smith, Gordon would be expendable. We would get the big guy (Gasol) and also have our big #2 guard who can score.


Great point.

But, there is no way Skiles puts up with JR. Its either Skiles or JR, if you want him on the team.

Crawford would also be a nice player to have around as well, if Gordon or Duhon or both end up leaving town.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> I've been clamoring for a Gasol trade for a while now, and I'd be thrilled if it happened. As long as it's not Deng AND Gordon and a pick, I'm fine with any other of the permutations that've been floated here.
> 
> It is exceedingly rare for a player of Gasol's abilities to be available at what is a relatively young age. His foot injury (the so-called Martha's Vineyard metatarsal fracture) was a fluke and it seems to be well behind him. He's one of the top 3 or 4 true low-post players in the league, he's a great passer, he's an underrated defender, and he was the best player in the tournament at the World's. He will do wonders for our spacing, he won't compromise our defense whatsoever, and on an individual basis I think he will bring out the best in Wallace and speed Thomas's development. It would hurt to lose Gordon, but Gasol's presence will make things a lot easier for whatever guards are left on our team after the trade.
> 
> It's a no-brainer. I think it makes the Bulls the favorites out of the East *this year*, and in the longer term, it gives us a much better chance to compete with LeBron, Dwight, and Dwyane.


+1


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

I can imagine West want Gordon+PJ+pick for Gasol.
(Even West would know Gordon+Deng for Gasol is pure pipe-dream.)

If Paxon is considering Gordon+PJ+pick for Gasol, <b>I am pissed.</b>

If Paxon does trade Gordon+PJ+pick for Gasol, then <b>REOPEN the "FIRE PAXON CLUB" and I am in</b>.

<b>If the deal is Deng+PJ+pick for Gasol, I can live with that.</b>

If the deal is Hinrich+PJ+pick for Gasol, I am in heaven. ( know this won't happen either.)


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> I've been clamoring for a Gasol trade for a while now, and I'd be thrilled if it happened. As long as it's not Deng AND Gordon and a pick, I'm fine with any other of the permutations that've been floated here.
> 
> It is exceedingly rare for a player of Gasol's abilities to be available at what is a relatively young age. His foot injury (the so-called Martha's Vineyard metatarsal fracture) was a fluke and it seems to be well behind him. He's one of the top 3 or 4 true low-post players in the league, he's a great passer, he's an underrated defender, and he was the best player in the tournament at the World's. He will do wonders for our spacing, he won't compromise our defense whatsoever, and on an individual basis I think he will bring out the best in Wallace and speed Thomas's development. It would hurt to lose Gordon, but Gasol's presence will make things a lot easier for whatever guards are left on our team after the trade.
> 
> It's a no-brainer. I think it makes the Bulls the favorites out of the East *this year*, and in the longer term, it gives us a much better chance to compete with LeBron, Dwight, and Dwyane.


I agree. I just hope it's Deng instead. Gordon is our only reliable outside threat. That would give us great balance with Gasol inside, Nocioni intermediate / slashing and Gordon outside. I think having Noc around makes Deng somewhat more expendable.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> *It's a no-brainer*. I think it makes the Bulls the favorites out of the East *this year*, and in the longer term, it gives us a much better chance to compete with LeBron, Dwight, and Dwyane.



_completely agree._ DO IT PAX! and very nice to see you again, mr. may.

:bananallama:


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

ScottMay said:


> I've been clamoring for a Gasol trade for a while now, and I'd be thrilled if it happened. As long as it's not Deng AND Gordon and a pick, I'm fine with any other of the permutations that've been floated here.
> 
> It is exceedingly rare for a player of Gasol's abilities to be available at what is a relatively young age. His foot injury (the so-called Martha's Vineyard metatarsal fracture) was a fluke and it seems to be well behind him. He's one of the top 3 or 4 true low-post players in the league, he's a great passer, he's an underrated defender, and he was the best player in the tournament at the World's. He will do wonders for our spacing, he won't compromise our defense whatsoever, and on an individual basis I think he will bring out the best in Wallace and speed Thomas's development. It would hurt to lose Gordon, but Gasol's presence will make things a lot easier for whatever guards are left on our team after the trade.
> 
> It's a no-brainer. I think it makes the Bulls the favorites out of the East *this year*, and in the longer term, it gives us a much better chance to compete with LeBron, Dwight, and Dwyane.


Good to see you back! I hope the trade involves Deng rather than Gordon, because I think it nets us a more balanced team, but I think you have to pull the trigger either way.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Seriously, what the hell. I come back from class and read this. It hurts the balance of this team if we lose Gordon. Deng is the most logical choice for us. Unfortunately, Gordon makes the most sense for the Griz. If we are getting rid of Gordon and NYK, I want Miller to come back with Gasol. If this trade actually goes down.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

People in here _seriously_ underrate Deng.

He's 21!!!

I also don't understand this obsession with finding low post scoring. I agree that we definitely need it, but not at the expense of Deng or Gordon (at least not in a trade that involves Gasol). So what, we give up Deng's 18 ppg on 53% shooting for Gasol's 18-19 ppg on 51% (career) shooting? If they have comparable scoring numbers and comparable shooting percentages, what does it matter if the points are coming from 6 feet or from 12 feet? And then give up PJ's expiring contract and a first round pick in a deep draft? Gasol doesn't even give us many more rebounds than Deng.


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## T.Shock (Feb 11, 2003)

The Truth said:


> People in here _seriously_ underrate Deng.
> 
> He's 21!!!
> 
> I also don't understand this obsession with finding low post scoring. I agree that we definitely need it, but not at the expense of Deng or Gordon (at least not in a trade that involves Gasol). So what, we give up Deng's 18 ppg on 53% shooting for Gasol's 18-19 ppg on 51% (career) shooting? And then give up PJ's expiring contract and a first round pick in a deep draft? Gasol doesn't even give us many more rebounds than Deng.


I think people would rather part with Deng than Gordon because we have Nocioni who is more than capable of starting and replacing Deng's contributions where we have noboby on our team who can replace what Gordon does for us. That's why if I'm Paxson, I hold out until Deng is included instead of Gordon.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Don't like this at all. At least there's Noce to put at SF once Deng leaves. How the hell are we gonna make up for losing Gordon? And I shudder to even think about 4th qtrs w/o him. In the NBA you aren't going anywhere w/o a go-to-guy on the perimeter in close games. Can't run crunch time offense through post players(Gasol for instance) since it's easier to double 'em. Deng can't create his own shot and Kirk's constantly proven he's no 4th qtr scorer. 

DON'T DO IT PAX!!!


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

T.Shock said:


> I think people would rather part with Deng than Gordon because we have Nocioni who is more than capable of starting and replacing Deng's contributions where we have noboby on our team who can replace what Gordon does for us. That's why if I'm Paxson, I hold out until Deng is included instead of Gordon.


I don't want to give up Deng _or_ Gordon, and I certainly don't want to give up a player that is already this good at 21. And Nocioni doesn't really replace Deng, since they already play significant minutes together. You'd basically be inserting Gasol instead of Deng, and I don't think it's worth sacrificing Deng's future, PJ's expiring contract, and a first round pick in a very deep draft.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

makes sense to me from pax' POV. This way he doesn't have to negoiate with Gordon in the offseason, and it will be an ugly thing.

And, boy did PJ have a spring in his step last night or what? Getting the hell out of dodge seems to make him a happy guy.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

T.Shock said:


> I think people would rather part with Deng than Gordon because we have Nocioni who is more than capable of starting and replacing Deng's contributions where we have noboby on our team who can replace what Gordon does for us. That's why if I'm Paxson, I hold out until Deng is included instead of Gordon.


The hard truth is that it's a lot easier to replace a guard than a big man. 
I love Gordon, but he has weaknesses that are not going to go away. He's too short to guard most shooting guards in the league and he's had three years to develop point guard skills -- without success. He's a great streak shooter, but he's at his best when the ball in his hands. 

In short, Gordon's a great offensive player who anyone would like to have on their team, but this is a classic case of trading small for big and the Bulls should take it if they can.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> makes sense to me from pax' POV. This way he doesn't have to negoiate with Gordon in the offseason, and it will be an ugly thing.
> 
> And, boy did PJ have a spring in his step last night or what? Getting the hell out of dodge seems to make him a happy guy.


Why is negotiating with Ben going to be more difficult than negotiating with Deng? Honestly, I thought re-inking Deng this summer would prove to be harder.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

SecretAgentGuy said:


> Why is negotiating with Ben going to be more difficult than negotiating with Deng? Honestly, I thought re-inking Deng this summer would prove to be harder.




cause gordon will want the max and he's not worth it and it will therefore be "not pretty". i'm just speculating. 

gordon goes to memphis and he can be the man like he's wanted to be.

i am firmly on the side of trade gordon/keep deng, in case anyone was wondering.

deng's ceiling is just soooo much higher than gordon's at this point, IMO.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

SecretAgentGuy said:


> Why is negotiating with Ben going to be more difficult than negotiating with Deng? Honestly, I thought re-inking Deng this summer would prove to be harder.


Hinrich set the baseline at the low end for what Gordon is worth, and I doubt paxson wants to pay him as much.

Nobody set a similar baseline for Deng.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

The only way I'd be okay with moving Gordon in this deal is if we're making another move for an SG (Maggette etc.), but even then we're trading one of the best up-and-coming SG's in all of basketball.

Don't like it at all, can't believe he even offered him.

Oh yeah, if I were Gordon, I'd be highly p'd off.


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## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

charlietyra said:


> Not to rub salt in any wounds but if we had JR Smith, Gordon would be expendable. We would get the big guy (Gasol) and also have our big #2 guard who can score.
> 
> JR got 20 off the bench yesterday including 6 for 10 from three point land.


I wouldn't go that far. I'm a proud owner of JR Smith on my fantasy league to fill up my 3pt column, but JR Smith does not create his shot like Gordon does. Smith is in a system with AI and Carmelo who are the elite in getting off their own shot. Smith is a chucker, but in an effective way with his shot-creating bookends. Of course Smith's potential as a go-to guy is intruiging, but I don't think he's close to that yet. 

I definitely say trade Deng over Gordon, and I probably like Deng more than Gordon. But Gordon is very unique for our backcourt, and unless we get someone like Mike Miller in return we will be screwed.

We want an inside-outside game. Going from pure outside to pure inside is pointless.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

Wallace-Gasol-Nocioni-Deng is a logjam minutes-wise (but a good problem to have). Thomas will need to play substantial minutes at some point as well. 

I'm not opposed to trading Gordon, but if Gordon is traded, that pick is incredibly valuable. It represents the Bulls' best chance for replacing Gordon. The other is Deng. 

I think Deng has very little chance of being Chicago Bull long term.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

If Gordon is traded and we don't get a guard in return, just imagine the scoring our guard rotation of Hinrich, Thabo, and Duhon will provide us.

Gasol would be double teamed constantly.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

I think this trade could backfire for both teams.

Memphis all of a sudden wins a bunch of games and their draft position gets worse. Bulls the opposite, but Memphis gets the Bulls' pick.

I think Deng has been the key to us getting off to good starts, but Gordon has been the key to us finishing games with W's.

I also think that Paxson builds unbalanced teams, and this would fill one hole and make another huge void.


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## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

The Truth said:


> I don't want to give up Deng _or_ Gordon, and I certainly don't want to give up a player that is already this good at 21. And Nocioni doesn't really replace Deng, since they already play significant minutes together. You'd basically be inserting Gasol instead of Deng, and I don't think it's worth sacrificing Deng's future, PJ's expiring contract, and a first round pick in a very deep draft.


Is it a deep draft? It's definitely a deep lottery, but if you go by nbadraft.net you won't find many scoring shooting guards.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> deng's ceiling is just soooo much higher than gordon's at this point, IMO.


I disagree. Just like Lebron James' best statistical season will probably be last year, I think this kind of season is what you should peg in from Luol from here on out. He might get into the 20's, but the guy has an Antwan Jamison kind of career ahead of him.


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## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

The Truth said:


> If Gordon is traded and we don't get a guard in return, just imagine the scoring our guard rotation of Hinrich, Thabo, and Duhon will provide us.
> 
> *Gasol would be double teamed constantly.*


Exactly


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> I think this trade could backfire for both teams.
> 
> Memphis all of a sudden wins a bunch of games and their draft position gets worse. *Bulls the opposite, but Memphis gets the Bulls' pick.
> *
> ...


Do you think Bulls lose a bunch of games without Gordon. Your statement is unclear.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Not to mention Gasol is a face up player in the NBA. Very rarely does this guy like to go in the paint (he's not Jermaine O'Neal) but if you check his eFG%, you'll see the majority of his shots are jumpshots. Hope Pax trades Gordon.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

HKF said:


> I disagree. Just like Lebron James' best statistical season will probably be last year, I think this kind of season is what you should peg in from Luol from here on out. He might get into the 20's, but the guy has an Antwan Jamison kind of career ahead of him.


I guess we'll just have to take your word for it then.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The Truth said:


> I guess we'll just have to take your word for it then.


Well you're a Duke fan and a Bulls fan, so you want to believe that because Luol is 21 (about turn 22), he's going to become some superstar player, but the truth is, he has limitations. I doubt he's all of a sudden going to be a 24 ppg scorer in the NBA. He just doesn't have the game to be that consistent offensively.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> Do you think Bulls lose a bunch of games without Gordon. Your statement is unclear.


yes

His sheer volume of 10+ point quarters help us win games. Like his 11 in Q3 last night that turned the game from a close one into a rout.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

HKF said:


> Well you're a Duke fan and a Bulls fan, so you want to believe that because Luol is 21 (about turn 22), he's going to become some superstar player, but the truth is, he has limitations. I doubt he's all of a sudden going to be a 24 ppg scorer in the NBA. He just doesn't have the game to be that consistent offensively.


First, it wouldn't be all of a sudden. He's averaging 18 points right now. 

I don't think Luol will ever be the man offensively and average in the mid 20s. He could be a 20 - 22 point 8 rebound guy who scores efficiently and plays solid defense though.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

HKF said:


> Not to mention Gasol is a face up player in the NBA. Very rarely does this guy like to go in the paint (he's not Jermaine O'Neal) but if you check his eFG%, you'll see the majority of his shots are jumpshots.


Pau Gasol's percentage of "inside" FGA the last three years, per 82games.com:

2006-2007: 46
2005-2006: 52
2004-2005: 56

Here is the percentage of inside FGA taken by Jermaine O'Neal over the same period:

2006-2007: 35
2005-2006: 33
2004-2005: 29

Basically, with the exception of Curry, Shaq, and Dwight Howard, Gasol is as much of an inside scorer as any elite 4/5 in the league. Duncan and Yao shoot about 50% jumpers, and guys like Brand, Garnett, Dirk, Randolph, O'Neal, Bosh, etc., are a lot more jumper-oriented than you think. I looked up most of them when we were having a debate about Lamar Odom a while back (Odom also does most of his damage in the paint).


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> yes
> 
> His sheer volume of 10+ point quarters help us win games. Like his 11 in Q3 last night that turned the game from a close one into a rout.


Gasol can score effectively in Q3 as well. 

I think Gasol will increase the number of games the Bulls are leading by 10+ at the end of Q3, if that makes sense. And then you don't need a great scorer in Q4. Gordon for Gasol is a lateral move at worst in the regular season. 

I also agree with HKF about Deng.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> Pau Gasol's percentage of "inside" FGA the last three years, per 82games.com:
> 
> 2006-2007: 46
> 2005-2006: 52
> ...


That's good stuff. Unfortunately it appears that Gasol is becoming more of a jump shooter as he gets older.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Grizzlies are loaded at the forward spots so I don't see what they'd do with Deng. So Gordon is the one VERY likely to be traded - and Pax better be ready to bring in another solid SG. Otherwise we're simply filling one BIG hole and creating another BIG one. The last thing I wanna see(and I'm sure everybody else) is Thabo/Duhon playing major minutes. And I don't wanna see Deng/Kirk taking the majority of our shots in the 4th qtr either.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Just to make things perfectly clear -- Deng is my favorite Bull since Pippen. I really like his game and would love to keep him in the long term.

But despite the apparent similarity of his numbers and Gasol's, it's truly apples and oranges. 

Deng is a safety valve kind of guy. He's a very good safety valve, but I have a hard time envisioning an offense being run through him. 

Gasol's numbers over the years are also artificially deflated a bit. The Hubie Brown/Fratello Grizzlies played at an excruciatingly slow pace. 

The bottom line is that it's a *great* thing that Pau Gasol will draw double-teams. That's the whole idea. He will punish a team either way -- scoring one-on-one in the low block, or making the correct pass when the double team comes. 

It would be best if we retained Gordon, as Gordon + Gasol is an absolutely sick combo that would have *any* opponent reeling from the bad possibilities. As much as I like him, Deng is the most expendable of our high-quality assets.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> Gasol can score effectively in Q3 as well.
> 
> I think Gasol will increase the number of games the Bulls are leading by 10+ at the end of Q3, if that makes sense. And then you don't need a great scorer in Q4. Gordon for Gasol is a lateral move at worst in the regular season.
> 
> I also agree with HKF about Deng.


I don't see the W's in memphis for some reason. I've seen them for 2+ seasons here.


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## Bulls_Bulls_Bulls! (Jun 10, 2003)

So as to not create yet another thread, could this trade (BG for Pau) be the reason Thabo is now getting minutes, again? To see if he is ready to cut the mustard, so to speak?


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

SPMJ said:


> Grizzlies are loaded at the forward spots so I don't see what they'd do with Deng. So Gordon is the one VERY likely to be traded - and Pax better be ready to bring in another solid SG. Otherwise we're simply filling one BIG hole and creating another BIG one. The last thing I wanna see(and I'm sure everybody else) is Thabo/Duhon playing major minutes. And I don't wanna see Deng/Kirk taking the majority of our shots in the 4th qtr either.


I don't see it that way. I think a 2/3 combo of Deng, Gay and Miller is pretty desirable. Miller and Deng complement each other very well offensively and Gay can defend both spots very well.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

HKF said:


> Well you're a Duke fan and a Bulls fan, so you want to believe that because Luol is 21 (about turn 22), he's going to become some superstar player, but the truth is, he has limitations. I doubt he's all of a sudden going to be a 24 ppg scorer in the NBA. He just doesn't have the game to be that consistent offensively.


Ok, I'm a Duke fan, so I can't be right in saying that Luol hasn't reached his full potential.

Yada, yada, yada...

So he improved a lot between 20 and 21, but at 21 he's finished improving. I see.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

I hope people are looking forward in such a trade scenario. Gasol isn't a drive&kick offensive scheme player. He's the guy you make the first pass to, and as early as possible, and HE is the guy who kicks out the passes to teh 3pt shooters.

It would be a real change in paradigm for the team to use him properly, and to not use him properly you will be complaining about him like you do about Wallace ("costs a lot, underperforms").


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> That's good stuff. Unfortunately it appears that Gasol is becoming more of a jump shooter as he gets older.


His drawn-foul % has been constant, though -- 18.6 this year, 16.8 last (which, remember, was accompanied by his averaging nearly 5 assists per game!), and 18.8 in 2004-2005. 

I don't think we need to fear Gasol will morph into Pat Garrity anytime soon.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The Truth said:


> Ok, I'm a Duke fan, so I can't be right in saying that Luol hasn't reached his full potential.
> 
> Yada, yada, yada...


 -1
:biggrin:


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> His drawn-foul % has been constant, though -- 18.6 this year, 16.8 last (which, remember, was accompanied by his averaging nearly 5 assists per game!), and 18.8 in 2004-2005.
> 
> I don't think we need to fear Gasol will morph into Pat Garrity anytime soon.



OT: Glad to see the batteries are recharged and you're back, Scooter!


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I see it more along the lines of he's (Deng) finally been healthy (knock on wood) with no freak accidents that stunted his development. The guy is a very good role player, ala Shawn Marion, but as you can see Marion's numbers have plateaued. Yes they are consistent, but no one would dare make him the focal point of any offense, because he simply doesn't have the game to allow such an action to take place.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> Just to make things perfectly clear -- Deng is my favorite Bull since Pippen. I really like his game and would love to keep him in the long term.
> 
> But despite the apparent similarity of his numbers and Gasol's, it's truly apples and oranges.
> 
> ...


I agree with this 100%


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> OT: Glad to see the batteries are recharged and you're back, Scooter!


Thanks, even though, alas, I am not currently tanned and well-rested.

:cheers:


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> Thanks, even though, alas, I am not currently tanned and well-rested.
> 
> :cheers:


We could use you for color announcer in the play-by-play booth.

Ironically, nobody's ever considered asking Tom Boerwinkle to join the tallest pbp team in the league.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

HKF said:


> I see it more along the lines of he's (Deng) finally been healthy (knock on wood) with no freak accidents that stunted his development. The guy is a very good role player, ala Shawn Marion, but as you can see Marion's numbers have plateaued. Yes they are consistent, but no one would dare make him the focal point of any offense, because he simply doesn't have the game to allow such an action to take place.


Well Gasol has been the focal point of the Grizzlies offense for some time now, and look at where it got them.

I'm not saying that Luol is going to be a superstar, I'm just saying I that I think he could be as good as Gasol is right now in the near future, and that, coupled with the other components in the trade, is too much to give up.

The Grizzlies are asking for too much. They want cap flexibility (Brown), they want a first round pick, and they want close to equal value in the player swap (Gordon/Deng). You can't get all three, especially for a guy who has requested a trade.

If they want to give up a disgruntled Gasol and want a pick and cap space, don't give them our first tier guys. Hinrich and Noc are the ones who should be considered, not Deng and Gordon.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

I'll go on the record right now and say that I HATE this deal. Lil Ben and PJ should be enough for Gasol. If we throw in the NYK pick, that's WAY too much, and that combined with the JR and Chandler trades will be enough to push me over the top into the FIRE PAX club if it actually goes down.

As already stated on here, if we let Lil Ben go, we have NO outside shooting to speak of. What good is a post game with no outside counterpart? If they double-team Gasol, he's supposed to kick it out to someone for the 3? Who the hell is he going to pass it to if our only perimeter shooter (Gordon) is gone? 

Then we get into the pick. If it's the NYK pick, way too valuable. If it's our 2008 pick or something, then I suppose I'd have to go for it, as I see Lil Ben and Gasol at least pretty comparable production-wise. But to give up our best scorer, only perimeter scorer, and a pick that could get us a real star, for a guy at a position we already have our future star at makes no sense. Gasol doesn't seem to be the center type of player that would allow Thomas to play next to him on the post, so what's the point here? Yeah we need a post scorer, but what good is a post scorer if you give up your outside scoring?


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The Truth said:


> Well Gasol has been the focal point of the Grizzlies offense for some time now, and look at where it got them.
> 
> I'm not saying that Luol is going to be a superstar, I'm just saying I that I think he could be as good as Gasol is right now in the near future, and that, coupled with the other components in the trade, is too much to give up.
> 
> The Grizzlies are asking for too much. They want cap flexibility (Brown), they want a first round pick, and they want close to equal value in the player swap (Gordon/Deng). You can't get all three, especially for a guy who has requested a trade.


You're not taking into account Gasol's height or the positions he plays.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

The Truth said:


> Well Gasol has been the focal point of the Grizzlies offense for some time now, and look at where it got them.


Gasol got a weaker team than he would have with the Bulls to the playoffs in the West.


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Ben Gordon is now comparable to Pau Gasol and Luol Deng is better.:lol:


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> Gasol got a weaker team than he would have with the Bulls to the playoffs in the West.


Really? Do you think his Grizzlies team in the past few years was much worse personnel wise than the Bulls would be sans Gordon or Deng?


----------



## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

ScottMay said:


> Just to make things perfectly clear -- Deng is my favorite Bull since Pippen. I really like his game and would love to keep him in the long term.
> 
> But despite the apparent similarity of his numbers and Gasol's, it's truly apples and oranges.
> 
> ...


There's no question that the Bulls would be better off in the short term, and maybe even in the long term if they could trade one or two of their small forwards instead of Gordon. But Memphis needs guards not small forwards. 

If they Bulls trade Deng instead of Gordon, they should not include a draft choice.

The 5 year difference in the age of Deng and Gasol affects their relative trade value. Not only does Deng obviously have more potential upside growth, but he has significantly better prospects for longevity. If you assume both players will have quality years until they are 33, you're trading about 12 quality years of Deng for about 7 quality years of Gasol. That's a big difference. Barring injury, starting about two years from now and continuing for the next decade, Deng will be a better player than Gasol, judging from the progress he's made so far.

I might add that you don't have to start paying Deng a big salary for a couple of years, but Gasol is already making big bucks. All of these considerations, together with the similarity of the productivity of the two players suggests that Deng should have equal, if not greater value than Gasol on the trade market. The Bulls would throw in at least an $8 million expiring contract as well. 

If the Bulls also throw in a 1st round draft choice, they are being raped on this trade.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I love Ben Gordon, but he's not better than Pau Gasol. I mean I have to be honest with myself here. Pau took a team of role players to the playoffs in the West, three years in a row. If they were in the East, that team might have done some significant damage (they would have at least won a playoff game).


----------



## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> You're not taking into account Gasol's height or the positions he plays.


Yes, I did. I addressed that in an earlier post.


----------



## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> I'll go on the record right now and say that I HATE this deal. Lil Ben and PJ should be enough for Gasol. If we throw in the NYK pick, that's WAY too much, and that combined with the JR and Chandler trades will be enough to push me over the top into the FIRE PAX club if it actually goes down.


In all fairness, the report says "a" first round pick. It doesn't say its the Knicks' pick. 



> As already stated on here, if we let Lil Ben go, we have NO outside shooting to speak of.
> 
> What good is a post game with no outside counterpart? If they double-team Gasol, he's supposed to kick it out to someone for the 3? Who the hell is he going to pass it to if our only perimeter shooter (Gordon) is gone?


"Already stated on here" falsely. We won't have Gordon's scoring bursts to be sure. I'd rather not include him if we can avoid it. He'd make a wicked combo with Gasol. 

But we'll still have an ample supply of perimeter shooting without Gordon. 

Contrarily, we have absolutely ZERO, none, zilch, nada interior scoring whatsoever.

To me, the argument that Gordon for Gasol exchanges one limited offensive philosophy (all perimeter/no interior) for another (all interior/no perimeter) is downright laughable. 

Deng, Nocion and Hinrich are all perimeter threats to balance with Gasol's interior scoring. 

If Paxson makes Gordon a trade killer for Gasol, I'm going to be pissed.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> I've been clamoring for a Gasol trade for a while now, and I'd be thrilled if it happened. As long as it's not Deng AND Gordon and a pick, I'm fine with any other of the permutations that've been floated here.
> 
> It is exceedingly rare for a player of Gasol's abilities to be available at what is a relatively young age. His foot injury (the so-called Martha's Vineyard metatarsal fracture) was a fluke and it seems to be well behind him. He's one of the top 3 or 4 true low-post players in the league, he's a great passer, he's an underrated defender, and he was the best player in the tournament at the World's. He will do wonders for our spacing, he won't compromise our defense whatsoever, and on an individual basis I think he will bring out the best in Wallace and speed Thomas's development. It would hurt to lose Gordon, but Gasol's presence will make things a lot easier for whatever guards are left on our team after the trade.
> 
> It's a no-brainer. I think it makes the Bulls the favorites out of the East *this year*, and in the longer term, it gives us a much better chance to compete with LeBron, Dwight, and Dwyane.


Once again, I agree with your thinking. I'd prefer Deng to go over Ben, but I could live with Ben going, if that is what it takes. But not both, under any circumstances.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

McBulls said:


> There's no question that the Bulls would be better off in the short term, and maybe even in the long term if they could trade one or two of their small forwards instead of Gordon. But Memphis needs guards not small forwards.
> 
> If they Bulls trade Deng instead of Gordon, they should not include a draft choice.
> 
> ...


What is your definition of quality years? Only all-time greats give 13+ years of quality play at the small forward position.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

I HATE Duke, but I think that Luol still has room to improve. Just thought I'd throw that in there.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The Truth said:


> Yes, I did. I addressed that in an earlier post.


Apparently you shined it on. 

The guy is 7'1". There are literally just a handful of guys in his class.

The only advantage I see in Deng is that he's 21. Simply, he can be part of the team for longer.

Deng's been a wonderful player for us. Whether he stays or goes, he's going to be someone's SF and doing well for at least another 10 years (barring injury)


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> In all fairness, the report says "a" first round pick. It doesn't say its the Knicks' pick.


That is, of course, the only pick we have this year (our pick, which we have the right to swap with NYK).

I suppose it could mean we are offering our 2008 pick, but I would think that if it was to be a future year pick, that would be something they would have mentioned.

At least you'd think...

Of course, maybe not. We're not talking any Pulitzer expectations here...


----------



## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Apparently you shined it on.
> 
> The guy is 7'1". There are literally just a handful of guys in his class.
> 
> ...


What I said is what does it matter if the player is scoring from 6 ft vs. 12 feet if they're scoring close to the same number of points at a comparable shooting percentage?

Of course, you have to take defense into account, but my statement was in response to the idea that we need low post scoring.


----------



## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

HKF said:


> What is your definition of quality years? Only all-time greats give 13+ years of quality play at the small forward position.


That's true. The argument for Deng gets stronger if you cut the number of productive years.


----------



## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

The Truth said:


> Really? Do you think his Grizzlies team in the past few years was much worse personnel wise than the Bulls would be sans Gordon or Deng?


First, I want no part of trading Gordon. It would be a step forward and a step back in my opinion. 

Lets consider Deng, Duhon and PJ for Gasol and compare that with the top minute guys on the Grizzlies team that last year that won 50 games.

Wallace>>Wright
Gordon>Miller
Nocioni=Battier
Hinrich> Bobby Jackson/Chucky Atkins
Eddie Jones>Thabo
Tyrus>D.Jones

Bulls look better to me. The Bulls get 5 favorable ">" and the Grizzlies only get one.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> That is, of course, the only pick we have this year (our pick, which we have the right to swap with NYK).
> 
> *I suppose it could mean we are offering our 2008 pick*, but I would think that if it was to be a future year pick, that would be something they would have mentioned.


That is what I meant. It could be a future pick. One can only report what one hears.

If all he heard is that it was "a" first rounder, then thats all he should report.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The Truth said:


> What I said is what does it matter if the player is scoring from 6 ft vs. 12 feet if they're scoring close to the same number of points at a comparable shooting percentage?
> 
> Of course, you have to take defense into account, but my statement was in response to the idea that we need low post scoring.


It matters a lot where you score from.

Outside shooters have off nights.

It's hard to miss dunks, or harder to miss from 2'.

A guy in the post who can score makes the D pack the lane a bit more, which opens up the perimter shots.

Jump shooters don't draw fouls like post players do.

Jump shooters aren't automatically in good position to rebound

I though you were asking a silly question, but I guess it was serious.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

The Truth said:


> What I said is what does it matter if the player is scoring from 6 ft vs. 12 feet if they're scoring close to the same number of points at a comparable shooting percentage?


That still fails to take spacing and balance into consideration.

Now, I don't know the answer to this, but what about free throws? 

Does Pau get to the line more than Deng? If so, thats another plus (getting the opposition in foul trouble) that doesn't show up in ppg or fg%.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Ron Cey said:


> In all fairness, the report says "a" first round pick. It doesn't say its the Knicks' pick.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Deng's shooting % went up because he moved in and no longer shoots from as far out. He's more of a slasher or mid-range shooter, not a perimeter shooter. Nocioni is pretty good, but he won't be out there if Gasol and Deng are now will he? Hinrich's shooting is off and on, so I wouldn't wanna rely on him as my only perimeter shooter either. FACT remains, Gordon is our only good outside shooter, and without him we'd be mid-range to inside, instead of outside to mid-range as we are now. 

I know it says A 1st rd pick, not the NYK pick. The deal isn't too bad if it's just our '08 pick, cause we won't be in the lottery and a pick outside the lottery, and especially out of this particular draft, doesn't have that much value to me.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> Ben Gordon is now comparable to Pau Gasol and Luol Deng is better.:lol:


No offense, but if you're going to take the time to post you might actually write something of substance. Was lauging icon your argument?

I immediately had two fears after reading the article 1) the pick is the NY pick 2) if this offer is being made this early in the process, it will be augmented in the future. I'm somewhat inclined to believe the pick would not be the NY pick since the article says "_a _first round draft pick" (where the NY pick is more notable ie _the _first round draft pick and would likely be referred to explicitly). If it's a future first rounder, I could live with this deal. I tend to think trading Deng is a better fit but I personally prefer Deng over Gordon and feel that Lu probably has the higher upside.

The interesting part about this proposal if there's any truth to it is that either Memphis has a definite preference for Gordon (certainly plausible since they have Gay already) or that the Bulls favor Thabo over Noc in the long term. The later could reflect a desire for a longer team and/or a reluctance to pay big bucks for Noc, particularly if Gasol's salary is on the books.

Finally, I'm not his biggest fan but the "Hate On Hinrich" bandwagon is getting way out of control. People are claiming that we would have no outside shooting without Gordon and implying that Hinrich is an offensive liability when Kirk is having his best shooting season to date and posting a .389 3PT % compared to .414 for Gordon. There would be issues with the outside shooting of whoever plays the 2 if Gordon is dealt but Kirk is an above average long range shooter capable of keeping the defense honest.


----------



## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

For a guy who cannot create his own shot (Deng), does anyone think he will have a superior impact than Jamison? The numbers are there, but there are limitations. If either one of them was more athetlic and could create their own shot, they would be a superstar. 

Also, does everyone else think that with sending Gordon, our backcourt can survive with the rest of the league: Hinrich (already struggles with shooting when Gordon is here), Thabo, Duhon, and Griffin.


----------



## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

Babble-On said:


> How would you propose the team make a big move if you don't wanna trade any of those guys? Or should that be taken to mean you don't really think a big move is necessary for the team to win big?


I'm not sure if that big move is out there for us. Getting Gasol is a great trade if he's complementing the current core (i.e. trading away players who aren't a significant part of our rotation- Thomas/Thabo/pick, and possibly Noc). However, if you're giving away one of Gordon/Deng and the pick, you're improving the team, although not significantly, but without much in the way of improvements down the line save for the MLE. In that case, I'd much rather let Thabo and Thomas develop, use the Knicks pick, and see how much improvement we can get from Deng and Gordon.

I look at the Bulls and see the Pistons pre-Rasheed. When Detroit added Wallace, they did so without moving any of their other starters.


----------



## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> Deng's shooting % went up because he moved in and no longer shoots from as far out. He's more of a slasher or mid-range shooter, not a perimeter shooter.


He still shoots it often - very often - out to 19 feet. He "moved in" a whopping two feet. According to 82games.com he still shoots 57% jumpers.

The fact that he has diversified and drives to the rim more doesn't mean he isn't a perimeter threat. He's a solid perimeter shooter. 



> Nocioni is pretty good, but he won't be out there if Gasol and Deng are now will he?


So? He'd still be in there with Pau. Do they BOTH have to be on the floor at the same time. He's a legit perimeter threat to play off of Pau when he's in. You appear to agree. 

And I can definitely see rotations with all 3 of them out there at once when Wallace isn't playing. 



> Hinrich's shooting is off and on, so I wouldn't wanna rely on him as my only perimeter shooter either.


As noted above, he wouldn't be the "only" perimeter threat. He'd one of several. And with a legit, double-teamed low post scorer finding him for looks, perhaps he'd be a little less "streaky"?



> *FACT* remains, Gordon is our only good outside shooter, and without him we'd be mid-range to inside, instead of outside to mid-range as we are now.


Those are not facts. 



> I know it says A 1st rd pick, not the NYK pick. The deal isn't too bad if it's just our '08 pick


Well, we agree on that part.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> Finally, I'm not his biggest fan but the "Hate On Hinrich" bandwagon is getting way out of control. People are claiming that we would have no outside shooting without Gordon and implying that Hinrich is an offensive liability when Kirk is having his best shooting season to date and posting a .389 3PT % compared to .414 for Gordon. There would be issues with the outside shooting of whoever plays the 2 if Gordon is dealt but Kirk is an above average long range shooter capable of keeping the defense honest.


Hinrich is an inconsistent 3pt shooter, not the threat that the misleading .389 3pt% would indicate.

His last bunch of games from 3pt:
0-1
1-2
1-5
2-5
1-4
3-4
1-8
6-12
0-5
0-3
2-3
=17-52 = .326

The 2-5, 3-4, and 6-12 nights are awesome. The 1-5, 1-8, 0-5, etc., are too frequent.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I give credit to DMD. If you guys had Brandon Roy, then moving Gordon now would be a coup.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> I look at the Bulls and see the Pistons pre-Rasheed. When Detroit added Wallace, they did so without moving any of their other starters.


Great point.

The Grizzlies are not in a good bargaining position right now, and I personally think they are asking for too much.

However, I haven't really considered the liklihood of the Bulls signing _both_ Deng and Gordon to long-term deals, which may be a serious concern to management. If that's the case, I'm not as opposed to a deal, but if we give up Gordon, Pax _has_ to work the trade so we get some perimeter scoring in return.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

it doesnt really matte, if i were paxson, i would tell west, you can have ANY 1 player + the knicks pick+PJ. take it or leave it. as good as gordon has been this year,when you are present with the opportunity to grab a 26 year old 7footer avreaging 20/10 and your team is desperate need for size, you gonna take it. theres no other way around it.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Gasol DOES have a good FT% though. Just looked it up, and he shoots 76.7% this season, with a career % of 72.2%. That is VERY important IMO. FTs will win or lose a lot of games for you, depending on if you can make them, and of course if you can get to the line to begin with.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> He still shoots it often - very often - out to 19 feet. He "moved in" a whopping two feet. According to 82games.com he still shoots 57% jumpers.
> 
> The fact that he has diversified and drives to the rim more doesn't mean he isn't a perimeter threat. He's a solid perimeter shooter.


He's taken *three *3pt attempts all season.

Last season he took 78 (and shot 26%).

He's a threat from a lot of places on the floor, but less-so "perimeter."


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

HKF said:


> I give credit to DMD. If you guys had Brandon Roy, then moving Gordon now would be a coup.


no **** sherlock
:reporter::azdaja:


----------



## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

DaBullz said:


> He's taken *three *3pt attempts all season.
> 
> Last season he took 78 (and shot 26%).
> 
> He's a threat from a lot of places on the floor, but less-so "perimeter."



I don't define "perimeter" as being exclusive to the 3 pt line. 

A 19-20 foot jumper is a perimeter shot, in my book. 

If the defintion of "perimeter" is "3 pt shooter" then I'll concede that Deng doesn't qualify. 

But I think that is a stupid definition when evaluating offensive balance and spacing.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The Truth said:


> Great point.
> 
> The Grizzlies are not in a good bargaining position right now, and I personally think they are asking for too much.
> 
> However, I haven't really considered the liklihood of the Bulls signing _both_ Deng and Gordon to long-term deals, which may be a serious concern to management. If that's the case, I'm not as opposed to a deal, but if we give up Gordon, Pax _has_ to work the trade so we get some perimeter scoring in return.


Signing them both was the excuse for trading for PJ Brown's expiring contract.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Signing them both was the excuse for trading for PJ Brown's expiring contract.


But is it still possible to sign both now that Deng will be commanding more money than what was probably expected (Gordon too for that matter).


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

DaBullz said:


> He's taken *three *3pt attempts all season.
> 
> Last season he took 78 (and shot 26%).
> 
> He's a threat from a lot of places on the floor, but less-so "perimeter."


Thanks for proving my point for me.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> I don't define "perimeter" as being exclusive to the 3 pt line.
> 
> A 19-20 foot jumper is a perimeter shot, in my book.
> 
> ...


I don't think we want Deng to be a jump shooter. he's terrific in the lane and near the rim, and that is why his FG% is so high (along with taking few 3's)

Finding time for Nocioni is a bigger issue. He is a perimter threat who will make a team pay for leaving him open.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The Truth said:


> But is it still possible to sign both now that Deng will be commanding more money than what was probably expected (Gordon too for that matter).


It always was possible to sign both. Even to max deals.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

HKF said:


> I give credit to DMD. If you guys had Brandon Roy, then moving Gordon now would be a coup.


Brandon who? Never heard of him... I was always a TT guy.


:uhoh:


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> I look at the Bulls and see the Pistons pre-Rasheed. When Detroit added Wallace, they did so without moving any of their other starters.


First of all, Gasol is, all things considered, a better player at this juncture than Rashweed was when Portland (Atlanta) cut him loose.

Second, Gasol has expressed his desire to leave a small-market team with a terrible ownership situation and what's become the worst surrounding cast in the league. That's a little more palatable than Rasheed, who was practically on the verge of getting kicked out of the league and the poster child for all the hand-wringing over how the NBA was broken.

Any defense of John Paxson's tenure as GM would begin with the depth he has accumulated. It's time to put it to good use. I completely agree with the part of your analogy that says we are one quality player away from being a legitimate contender for an NBA title.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

I understand Rasheed Wallace is going to be the first 2 sport guy in a long time, and is set to ink a deal with the Cincinatti Bengals.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_y...8vLYF?slug=aw-gasol012307&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td class="yspsctnhdln">Down and out</td> </tr> <tr> <td height="7"><spacer type="block" height="1" width="1"></td> </tr> </tbody></table> By Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports
January 23, 2007 <table id="ysparticleheadshot" align="left" border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0" hspace="5" vspace="5"> <tbody><tr> <td class="ysptblbdr2"> <table class="yspwhitebg" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td> <table class="yspwhitebg" border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td></td></tr><tr><td></td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> DENVER – Pau Gasol had his feet buried in buckets of freezing water, his wrist wrapped with ice. He was some sorry sight late Monday night at the Pepsi Center – all sore bones, empty eyes and beleaguered spirit. Another embarrassing loss, another night in the staggering freefall of the Memphis Grizzlies. 


"Apparently, I'm getting criticized for wanting to be in a better situation, for wanting to win," Gasol said. 


Hours later on Tuesday, Grizzlies owner Michael Heisley was on his cell phone, acknowledging that his 7-foot star and his agent, Arn Tellem, had asked Heisley and general manager Jerry West for a trade. 
Gasol wants out, the owner said, and West will try to make it happen. 


Only the Grizzlies won't give him away. 

"The fact that Pau would like a trade to somebody who has the chance to be a champion here in the short run – that's a very natural situation for him," Heisley said. "Pau has been very good to us. I don't have a problem with him saying he'd like to go to a championship team. 

"But I don't have any fire sale to get rid of him. He's our franchise player, and if (trading him) would do something good for our franchise, move us forward in our plans, then we'll make that move." 


West confirmed to the _Memphis Commercial Appeal_ that he had preliminary discussions with Chicago, but Bulls G.M. John Paxson has to think long and hard about breaking up his talented core of young players with the belief that Gasol can be the cornerstone of a championship contender. Do you give up Luol Deng and Ben Gordon to gamble on Gasol's greatness? Kirk Hinrich? 


Nets president Rod Thorn has been dying to trade for a low-post presence, but he's short on bargaining chips with Nenad Krstic and Richard Jefferson out after surgery. Still, as the Feb. 22 trade deadline nears, there will be teams trying to make a move for Gasol, who has $60 million left over the next four years of his contract. After breaking his foot in the world championships while playing for Spain last summer, Gasol missed 22 games to start the season. Memphis lost 17 of them. 


With Shane Battier traded to Houston on draft night, this franchise had no anchors. It has no way to sustain itself. The Grizzlies are 10-32 and making the most inspired run in the league for Greg Oden and Kevin Durant. 
What has angered Gasol has been the suggestion that he has been belligerently slow to get back into shape, to give his best, since returning to the floor. 


"I don't want this to upset me to a point where it affects my personal life and my professional life," he said. "I think it's easy right now to talk bad about me. I love Memphis. I've been here six years. I'm still competing. People are second-guessing my professionalism, my willingness to work. That's really bad. That's a shame. 
"It's affecting everybody around this team," he said of the swirl of controversy. "And we don't need any more negativity than we already have." 


Heisley desperately wants to sell the team and had an embarrassing episode with the ownership bid of Brian Davis and Christian Laettner, who could never raise the funds to complete the purchase. The team has cut payroll, gone young and almost come to a stand-still as a franchise. After West fired Mike Fratello last month, there was no coaching search. West merely moved Tony Barone downstairs from the front office. 
Everything is on hold with the Grizzlies. 


"Of course, it's a distraction," Barone said. "The business end of this is something you're constantly massaging. It's tough on Pau. It's tough on the players. It's tough on the franchise." 


Most believe West is on his way out at season's end, and that's probably best for everyone. Sources say that West has increasingly lost patience with what's left of the playoff program constructed under his watch with Hubie Brown. More and more, he sounds frustrated with the modern player to colleagues around the league, especially with those whom he's brought to Memphis. 


Now, Gasol has had it with the mess there. He knows what's coming for this franchise. Almost everyone does. 
Last one out, turn off the lights. 


"Little things can change the whole picture," Gasol said. "That's why people look differently at (things) and see where the mistakes have been made. There's just a consequence of different actions. It's uncomfortable right now. 
"I wanted this team to be great." 


Too late for that in Memphis, where a good thing has gone so bad.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> Hinrich is an inconsistent 3pt shooter, not the threat that the misleading .389 3pt% would indicate.
> 
> His last bunch of games from 3pt:
> 
> ...


I'm sure there's some truth to that but I also think inconsistency is overstated sometimes. People often seem to forget that hardly any players bring it every single night. Gordon has been pretty consistent for the last month or two but he's still had off games like last night and it's not as though he hasn't had his ups and downs in the past. Also, as evidenced by the low overall percentage, that stretch includes some or all of Hinrich's slump which doesn't help. Aren't we mostly talking about spacing here? If so Hinrich doesn't need to consistently do damage from behind the arc every night as much as he needs to be perceived as a player who can't be left alone out there by the opposing team.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> I'm sure there's some truth to that but I also think inconsistency is overstated sometimes. People often seem to forget that hardly any players bring it every single night. Gordon has been pretty consistent for the last month or two but he's still had off games like last night and it's not as though he hasn't had his ups and downs in the past. Also, as evidenced by the low overall percentage, that stretch includes some or all of Hinrich's slump which doesn't help. Aren't we mostly talking about spacing here? If so Hinrich doesn't need to consistently do damage from behind the arc every night as much as he needs to be perceived as a player who can't be left alone out there by the opposing team.


Gordon didn't have an off-game last night.

He scored 12 points and dished out 5 assists, and scored 10 in Q3 when we turned the game into a blowout. For his effort he was rewarded with the rest of the game off as we played Hinrich, Thabo, Thomas, Brown, and Nocioni for all of Q4. Deng also got the rest of the night off.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2007012304

Nocioni hit a 3-pointer and Ben Gordon made a three-point play to give Chicago a 62-51 lead with 4:03 left in the third quarter. Gordon scored 10 points in the period and finished with 12.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> I don't think we want Deng to be a jump shooter. he's terrific in the lane and near the rim, and that is why his FG% is so high (along with taking few 3's)
> 
> Finding time for Nocioni is a bigger issue. He is a perimter threat who will make a team pay for leaving him open.


I agree that we don't want Deng to be _more_ of a jumpshooter than he already is (unless of course his jumper improves) but if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Like you said he's been very efficient and he's done with 57% of his shots as jumpers. If he can somehow turn some of those jumpers into all shots and become even more efficent then by all means he should do it but as it stands he's taking a fair amount of shots a couple feet inside the three point arc without embarassing himself. That would seem to go some distance (no pun intended) towards providing spacing.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

HKF said:


> I give credit to DMD. If you guys had Brandon Roy, then moving Gordon now would be a coup.


Thanks, HKF. Roy looks really good. 

I know Gordon's your man, and he's taken his game to another level. But 5 assists, 5 turnovers last night? When is he going to learn how to protect that ball? Because when he does, he'll really be unstopable.

BTW, HKF, I've been clamoring to move Deng instead of Gordon (for Gasol).


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> Gordon didn't have an off-game last night.
> 
> He scored 12 points and dished out 5 assists, and scored 10 in Q3 when we turned the game into a blowout. For his effort he was rewarded with the rest of the game off as we played Hinrich, Thabo, Thomas, Brown, and Nocioni for all of Q4. Deng also got the rest of the night off.
> 
> ...


Well I was discussing his performance in the context of comparing Hinrich to other players in terms of consistent shooting and moer specifically consistent jump shooting. Gordon was 5 for 13 overall and 0 for 2 from three so I'd say it supports my argument that virtually all players have shooting nights that resemble Hinrich's poor (long range) shooting nights with some regularity.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

I guess if pressed, I'd probably hang onto Deng over Gordon, and really, Memphis should want Gordon over Deng given their current roster. Secondly, I just don't buy Nocioni as a starting SF. And you would think a combination of Noc and some of our remaining assets could get us a pretty decent SG who could spread the floor for Gasol.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

It looks to me like, at the very least, a whole lot of Bulls fans think something is going to go down...

We have 70 people viewing the board right now.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> Well I was discussing his performance in the context of comparing Hinrich to other players in terms of consistent shooting and moer specifically consistent jump shooting. Gordon was 5 for 13 overall and 0 for 2 from three so I'd say it supports my argument that virtually all players have shooting nights that resemble Hinrich's poor (long range) shooting nights with some regularity.


Having a poor shooting night from 3pt land 5 out of every 6 games is inconsistent.

Gordon's 3pt shooting for the past bunch of games:
0-2
3-5
0-4
2-6
1-5
4-6
5-6
5-6
2-4
3-6
1-6
2-5
= 28-61 .459

One of the two players is streaky good. The other is streaky bad.

This isn't hating on Hinrich, btw, it's just pure observation. I think any one of us would rather have Gordon shooting 3's than Hinrich (except on a night where Hinrich has been hitting them).


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I guess at this point there's not a lot to add to the conversation, but I simply don't see how the Bulls with Gasol can be sucessful at a high level without Gordon.

We don't have "ample" perimeter scorers besides him. We've got two guys who are competent at it. I stress competent meaning ok, but not threatening to anyone. 

One of them will not see the floor if Deng and Gasol are on the court at the same time, so from the practical perspective of trying to create a working lineup, we'd have one mid range guy out there (Deng), one ok perimeter shooter (Hinrich), and two guys that opponents will give no respect to whatsoever (Thabo or Duhon, you pick, an Wallace). 

Again, that's 3 on 5 basketball. To win something impressive in this league (especially if you're playing with one or two guys that opponents don't respect!) you better have both an inside guy and an outside guy that actually scares people.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> It looks to me like, at the very least, a whole lot of Bulls fans think something is going to go down...
> 
> We have 70 people viewing the board right now.


You're here.

it's a natural.
:yay:


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

I haven't seen the Sun-Times and Tribune pieces posted. If I missed them, sorry for the duplication. Nothing terribly different from the Southtown piece that started the thread in the Sun-times. A couple of interesting tidbits in the Trib.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/bulls/226397,CST-SPT-bullnt24.article

Operations chief John Paxson has confirmed his interest in 7-foot forward/center Pau Gasol of the Memphis Grizzlies, but he said a deal is far from imminent.
''If Memphis, in fact, does make a move, they're going to get the best deal they can get; that's what they should do,'' Paxson said Tuesday. ''For us, it's very difficult to give up too much because if it's going to be a lateral move, I'd tend to keep the assets we have and find some other way to get better.''

Gasol, though, is precisely the kind of scoring big man the Bulls have desired since they traded Eddy Curry to the New York Knicks in October 2004.

''It's an interesting name because a lot of teams need size, us included,'' Paxson said. ''But it always comes down to how much you have to give in order to get a deal done. Does it make sense for your organization, not only today but long term? That's what everybody weighs.''

After missing the first part of the season after suffering a knee injury during the world championship over the summer, Gasol is averaging 19.5 points and 7.5 rebounds in 20 games. Some have questioned his toughness, but there's no questioning his ability.

''We need a guy like that,'' Paxson said. ''We need someone with some length that can score around the basket and take some pressure off Ben [Wallace]. We do ask Ben to tend to a lot of different people and clean up the boards. We do have guys like [Andres] Nocioni and [Luol] Deng who are pretty good rebounders for their position, but we still ask Ben to do an awful lot.''



http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...an24,1,4621994.story?coll=cs-basketball-print

From Media Night to Tuesday night, general manager John Paxson has been more consistent in knowing his needs than the team he assembled has been on the court.

Now, that need has a name--Pau Gasol.



Speaking publicly for the first time since it became public that Gasol wants out of Memphis and the Bulls have been contacted, Paxson addressed why Gasol makes sense--at the right price.

"[His versatility] and his size and his ability to score in the post ... we need a guy like that," Paxson said. "We need somebody with length who can score around the basket and take some pressure off Ben [Wallace]. We do ask Ben to defend a lot of different people and clean up the boards.

"I know our main weakness: We need a [power forward] who can score. It's obvious. I'd like to address that. But I'm not going to mortgage the organization for that. I have a responsibility to ownership to not give up too much to get that. I'm going to explore whatever we can explore. If not, we're going to have to survive the way we're built right now."

The Bulls possess basically every element needed to trade for a star, specifically young talent, expiring contracts and draft picks. League sources indicated the expiring contract of P.J. Brown would be part of any deal, while the Bulls appear more agreeable to dealing Ben Gordon than Luol Deng.

Paxson gave a telling answer when asked if matching Gasol's $12.3 million salary, which could be paired with a small salary like Hakim Warrick's, would be the most difficult element of making a deal.

"In this case, probably not so much," he said. "More will come down to if Memphis is in fact going to make a move, they're going to get the best deal they can get. That's what they should do. For us, it's very difficult to give up too much. If it's just going to be a lateral move, I tend to keep the assets we have and try to find some other way to get better."

This philosophy has defined every major move Paxson has made since becoming general manager in April 2003. Whether it be the emotionally charged Eddy Curry trade or the recent negotiations to extend Kirk Hinrich's contract, Paxson makes what he believes is a fair offer and doesn't panic to add more.

That's why trading two players from the core of Hinrich, Gordon, Deng and Andres Nocioni won't happen.

"I've got to be careful in terms of how we go about this thing and protecting our future," Paxson said. "If there's a deal to be done that makes us better, I'm not going to be conservative. But I'm also not going to haphazardly throw some guys out there to get us a player at a spot we need. Because ultimately what would happen is we'd be back in a similar position at another spot. Then we'd need a small forward or a guard because we've given up too much."

Asked if he'd look elsewhere to address the size issue if the Gasol talks didn't bear fruit, say for a Melvin Ely, Paxson repeated himself.

"If we can, but it's not like we can just pluck one out," he said. "I have to keep the long-term perspective in mind as well. I'm not going to do anything financially that inhibits us going forward. And we have some contracts coming up. So I have to be smart there."

Paxson also addressed the state of the Bulls, who, luckily, reside in the victory-challenged Eastern Conference.

"We've been up and down," Paxson said. "There are times we've looked really good. Offensively, we've moved the ball and made shots and looked really solid. Other times, like the last couple of games, we've looked almost dysfunctional. We're not moving the ball. We're turning it over.

"We're doing things you can't do if you want to win."

That up-and-down nature also colored Paxson's assessment of Wallace's season.

"He's had some moments where he's been terrific and had some moments where it's been a struggle for him," Paxson said. "Ben still brings intangibles as far as toughness that don't stand out in the box score. We've talked as a staff a lot about how many deflections he gets and how many times he disrupts offenses by reading situations.

"My hope is Ben's real value will come as we get to the playoffs and he can play with the passion and energy he's shown many times in his career."

In general, that passion and energy hasn't defined this Bulls team thus far like the Bulls team of the last two playoff seasons.

"There hasn't been that consistency that I think the really good teams have almost every night," Paxson admitted. "That is my worry. I'd like to see us more consistent."


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> I don't think we want Deng to be a jump shooter. he's terrific in the lane and near the rim, and that is why his FG% is so high (along with taking few 3's)


I know it's not a glamorous shot but I love that automatic jumper from Deng. Then again, I am as old school as they get.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Outside shooters have off nights.


How many "off nights" has Deng had this year? His shooting has been pretty damn consistent.



> It's hard to miss dunks, or harder to miss from 2'.


But if they have comparable field goal percentages, they are similarly successful in making shots. 



> A guy in the post who can score makes the D pack the lane a bit more, which opens up the perimter shots.


But a slasher that forces off-ball defenders to help does this same.



> Jump shooters don't draw fouls like post players do.


That is true, and that's important as it concerns getting the opposition into foul trouble; however, if they're shooing similar percentages and averaging have similar ppg, then what does it matter (outside of getting the opposition into foul trouble) if the points come from the line or the field?



> Jump shooters aren't automatically in good position to rebound


Gasol is averaging 1.9 offensive rebounds per game. Deng is averaging 1.7.



> I though you were asking a silly question, but I guess it was serious.


No, I'm really that dumb.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I haven't seen the Sun-Times and Tribune pieces posted. If I missed them, sorry for the duplication. Nothing terribly different from the Southtown piece that started the thread in the Sun-times. A couple of interesting tidbits in the Trib.
> 
> http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/bulls/226397,CST-SPT-bullnt24.article
> 
> ...


Bits and pieces of these have been posted, but not together. It does reinforce that Pax won't overpay for someone in a trade. and end up hurting the team in both the short and long run.

Of course, some might argue he's already done this. :biggrin:


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

I STILL don't get it LOL

Why Gordon? Obviously West probably would prefer him but to offer him is another thing altogether.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The Truth said:


> How many "off nights" has Deng had this year? His shooting has been pretty damn consistent.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gasol shot 7.7 FTA/game in similar minutes to Deng (last season, I think he's basically rehabbing still).

Deng shoots 4.6 FTA/game.

A slasher does draw the defense to him on the plays he drives.

A post player packs the lane every play.

Deng's outside shot isn't automatic. He's streaky, like most players are from the outside. His inside scoring and moving closer to the basket to take is outside shots has resulted in his high FG%. That and he doesn't take a ton of shots, since he's a safety valve kind of offensive player (that's a great description, kudos to the guy who posted that earlier).


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Deng's outside shot isn't automatic. He's streaky, like most players are from the outside. His inside scoring and moving closer to the basket to take is outside shots has resulted in his high FG%. That and he doesn't take a ton of shots, since he's a safety valve kind of offensive player (that's a great description, kudos to the guy who posted that earlier).


from 18 feet and in that jumper looks pretty consistent to me. 

Stacey commented last night on a fast break that Deng taking a 16 foot jump shot wasn't a smart decision which was countered by Red, by saying with Deng's jump shot who is going to critize? I guess the anserw would be Dabullz :biggrin:


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

I'm still trying to get my head around a frontcourt of Deng, Gasol and Wallace/Nocioni. Some of us aren't taking into account that Gasol won't be in the low post _every_ single play. I'd imagine he'd still play quite a bit of high post, i.e. having a slasher like Deng would work out pretty well. Besides, Deng is almost as automatic as you can get from 16-18 ft out now. I'm not worried about what he does for spacing.

Aside from the spacing issues, I'm trying to see what kind of players Gordon and Deng will project to be. Deng is a classic second banana. Somehow, some way, he's going to get his. On the contrary, Gordon and Pau need the offense to flow through them in order to take full advantage. In theory the inside/outside punch of Gordon and Gasol sounds great but will it really come to fruition? Especially considering that one of the biggest reasons for Ben's improvement is his ability to take it to the hole this year?

I'd rather have Ben on this team still, but I'm also starting to think that losing him won't be nearly as devestating as some of us are making it out to be. Just throwing some ideas out there, but would we be able to get Jason Richardson?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

SecretAgentGuy said:


> I'm still trying to get my head around a frontcourt of Deng, Gasol and Wallace/Nocioni. Some of us aren't taking into account that Gasol won't be in the low post _every_ single play. I'd imagine he'd still play quite a bit of high post, i.e. having a slasher like Deng would work out pretty well. Besides, Deng is almost as automatic as you can get from 16-18 ft out now. I'm not worried about what he does for spacing.
> 
> Aside from the spacing issues, I'm trying to see what kind of players Gordon and Deng will project to be. Deng is a classic second banana. Somehow, some way, he's going to get his. On the contrary, Gordon and Pau need the offense to flow through them in order to take full advantage. In theory the inside/outside punch of Gordon and Gasol sounds great but will it really come to fruition? Especially considering that one of the biggest reasons for Ben's improvement is his ability to take it to the hole this year?
> 
> I'd rather have Ben on this team still, but I'm also starting to think that losing him won't be nearly as devestating as some of us are making it out to be. Just throwing some ideas out there, but would we be able to get Jason Richardson?


I envision this, assuming we trade Deng and not Gordon...

Gordon on the wing, Pau in the post. Pass into the post, pass back to gordon. Back to the post. Etc. If they double team Pau, gordon gets a good look. If they stick on Gordon, Pau has room to maneuver. I see this as a clearout kind of play - the remaining 3 bulls are on the other side of the lane or even near the sidelines (Hinrich near half court).

Another play is Pau setting the pick for either Hinrich or Gordon. Pick and roll. If the guard draws the double team, Pau pops for the pass and jumper, or rolls to the basket for the layup. If they stick with Pau, the guard has an open shot (defender is screened) or a drive for a layup.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> Having a poor shooting night from 3pt land 5 out of every 6 games is inconsistent.
> 
> Gordon's 3pt shooting for the past bunch of games:
> 0-2
> ...


Well obviously taking a small selection of games that coincide with the best basketball of Gordon's career and one of the worst periods of Hinrich's career isn't particularly fair. If Hinrich had a bad long distance shooting night 5 out of 6 nights, his percentage wouldn't be so high. I have no clue which player has been more consistent from behind the arc, that would take a lot of number crunching and research, but yes my gut is that I'd rather have Gordon shooting a three with the game on the line. Nevertheless, if Gordon was "streaky good" and Hinrich was "streaky bad," Hinrich's 3PT % wouldn't be withing spitting distance of Gordon's. 

This is all unrelated to my point though. I was merely trying to point out that when discussing consistency, people often erroneously compare the player in question to some hypothetical player who shoots well every night and that player doesn't exist. Even Gordon who's incredibly hot right now has some 0fers in there.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

eFG on jump shots, courtesy of 82 games
Thabo's is .376
Deng' is .414
Duhon's is .438
Kirk's is .476
Ben's is .512
Noc is .552

Factor in the the volume these guys are shooting. Gordon shoots more jumpers and creates for himself. That makes his high eFG somewhat more impressive. Kirk's is decent, but again, they're not shots he's making for himself.. 

I'd summarize this as saying Gordon scores very well an on shots he can manufacture. Kirk can score, but generally can't manufacture a shot well for himself.

Duhon and Thabo's are not very good, especially when you consider they pass up all but the most open of shots. That suggests they're shooting a low percentage on what are already pretty good shots that were set up for them.

Deng is unequivocally not a perimeter player. He's very good, but consider his numbers in light of the fact that he pretty much doesn't even dare shoot a 3 any more.

Noc.. is a sharpshooter, plain and simple. But he doesn't have anything like Deng's mid-range or inside game.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

JeremyB0001 said:


> Well obviously taking a small selection of games that coincide with the best basketball of Gordon's career and one of the worst periods of Hinrich's career isn't particularly fair. If Hinrich had a bad long distance shooting night 5 out of 6 nights, his percentage wouldn't be so high. I have no clue which player has been more consistent from behind the arc, that would take a lot of number crunching and research, but yes my gut is that I'd rather have Gordon shooting a three with the game on the line. Nevertheless, if Gordon was "streaky good" and Hinrich was "streaky bad," Hinrich's 3PT % wouldn't be withing spitting distance of Gordon's.
> 
> This is all unrelated to my point though. I was merely trying to point out that when discussing consistency, people often erroneously compare the player in question to some hypothetical player who shoots well every night and that player doesn't exist. Even Gordon who's incredibly hot right now has some 0fers in there.


Hinrich started out incredibly hot. He was shooting over 50% from 3pt range for quite a while. He's obviously not a 50% 3pt shooter. For his 3pt% to fall to 39%, he's been shooting well below that for quite a while. It's not just some temporary kind of streak.

For Gordon, it's the reverse. His well talked about slow start... He was shooting about 30% for a long time. For his 3pt% to get to .414, he's been hot from 3pt for an extended period. 

Be honest. When Hinrich puts up a 3pt shot, do you really have confidence it's going in? I don't, but I'm really happy when it does. When Gordon puts up a 3pt shot, even with 2 guys in his face at the end of a quarter, do you have confidence it's going in? I do.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Everything will be great until Skiles tells Gasol to shave.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

I fail to see how trading Gordon and not Deng will make us contenders. True Pau is a good passing big man as is Wallace. Is paxson thinking that dengs numbers will match Gordons? Is he asking Nocioni to step it up and play like he did the last month of the season last year? If so it can work; however, I still say, Gordon on the bulls makes better balance.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> I fail to see how trading Gordon and not Deng will make us contenders. True Pau is a good passing big man as is Wallace. Is paxson thinking that dengs numbers will match Gordons? Is he asking Nocioni to step it up and play like he did the last month of the season last year? If so it can work; however, I still say, Gordon on the bulls makes better balance.


I agree in principle, but the question is, if the bottom line is moving Gordon will get West to bite on the deal and moving Deng does not (and I'm not saying that is the case, but if it is...) do you pass?

It hurts worse, but I think I still do it.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I agree in principle, but the question is, if the bottom line is moving Gordon will get West to bite on the deal and moving Deng does not (and I'm not saying that is the case, but if it is...) do you pass?
> 
> It hurts worse, but I think I still do it.


Yeah, but still imo it does not improve us that much. We still have just one scorer. Oh well we shall see what happens.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Gasol shot 7.7 FTA/game in similar minutes to Deng (last season, I think he's basically rehabbing still).
> 
> Deng shoots 4.6 FTA/game.


I already conceded that by getting to the line more, it helps get the opposition in foul trouble. Outside of that, I don't see how shooting more free throws a game is more valuable when their total points per game is similar. Conversely, I could say that Luol makes more field goals per game.



> A slasher does draw the defense to him on the plays he drives.
> 
> A post player packs the lane every play.


I agree, good point.



> Deng's outside shot isn't automatic. He's streaky, like most players are from the outside.


It's pretty darn consistent out to 20 



> His inside scoring and moving closer to the basket to take is outside shots has resulted in his high FG%.


I'm not sure what your point is, my point all along was that we're not desperate enough for low-post scoring to warrant giving up so much in a trade.



> That and he doesn't take a ton of shots, since he's a safety valve kind of offensive player (that's a great description, kudos to the guy who posted that earlier).


Luol averages more shot attempts per game than Gasol, and his season average this year is comparable to Gasol's career average.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The Truth said:


> Luol averages more shot attempts per game than Gasol, and his season average this year is comparable to Gasol's career average.


I think you just made the case that Gasol, the post scorer, is more efficient at scoring.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

MikeDC said:


> I guess at this point there's not a lot to add to the conversation, but I simply don't see how the Bulls with Gasol can be sucessful at a high level without Gordon.
> 
> We don't have "ample" perimeter scorers besides him. We've got two guys who are competent at it. I stress competent meaning ok, but not threatening to anyone.
> 
> ...


If the Bulls trade Gordon for Gasol, they should make a trade with another team for a shooting guard, offering Nocioni, Khryapa or even Deng. If they don't make an additional trade Nocioni's playing time will be reduced, and the Bulls will not resign him as a free agent. There should be a guard out there who can hit the open 3. Jason Richardson (for Nocioni) comes to mind... Chucky Atkins (for 2nd round pick or Khryapa) can shoot the 3.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

The thing that needs to be factored into the Deng conversation is that Nocioni can be immediately plugged in at the SF and brings the sames things (good mid range game, slashing, rebounding). Plus the money set aside to resign Luol can go to Nocioni. Obviously Luol has more potential right now, but the ability to add a semi-star like Gasol and to put an very good player like Nocioni in his place would be great. Deng / Nocioni overlap too much as it is now.

Trading Gordon would be crazy since we don't a suitable replacement.

Nocioni + Gasol >> Nocioni + Deng


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

McBulls said:


> If the Bulls trade Gordon for Gasol, they should make a trade with another team for a shooting guard, offering Nocioni, Khryapa or even Deng. If they don't make an additional trade Nocioni's playing time will be reduced, and the Bulls will not resign him as a free agent. There should be a guard out there who can hit the open 3. Jason Richardson (for Nocioni) comes to mind... Chucky Atkins (for 2nd round pick or Khryapa) can shoot the 3.


Chucky Atkins? :lol:

The JRich idea is interesting, though there are a couple of questions. I'm not a huge fan of his, but he's largely fit the bill. But beyond my questions, there's the fact that he's out with a broken hand till after the all-star break. That's sort of scary to trade for. Likewise his $10M salary.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

If we're going to get crazy and trade Gordon and then trade for a SG, how about Vince Carter?

Bulls trade Gordon, Sweetney, Allen, Thabo
Griz trade Gasol, Lawrence Roberts, Tarence Kinsey (and cut Eddie Jones)

Bulls trade Nocioni, PJ Brown, Viktor Khyrapa
Nets trade Vince Carter, Mikki Moore

1- Hinrich, Duhon
2- Carter, Kinsey
3- Deng, Griffin
4- Gasol, Thomas, Roberts
5- Wallace, Moore, Andrews (IL)

That's probably pure fantasy, but it'd fill the hole


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> I think you just made the case that Gasol, the post scorer, is more efficient at scoring.


I'll take that as a retraction of your Deng is only a "safety-valve" who takes easy shots statement.

And Gasol is a more efficient scorer, but not by much.

Gasol's points per shot last season: 1.363
Deng's points per shot this season: 1.303

My point about him taking more field goals was simply to demonstrate that he scores more points from the field as opposed to Gasol, who scores more from the line.

I never said that Deng is as good as Gasol, rather that he has the potential to be as good as Gasol, and I would rather not sacrifice that potential future improvement along with PJ's upcoming cap space and a first round pick for Gasol.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> Chucky Atkins? :lol:
> 
> The JRich idea is interesting, though there are a couple of questions. I'm not a huge fan of his, but he's largely fit the bill. But beyond my questions, there's the fact that he's out with a broken hand till after the all-star break. That's sort of scary to trade for. Likewise his $10M salary.


The thing about the Warriors is they've really moved on without him. The most valuable player on that team right now is Monte Ellis. Then, with Pietrus, Baron Davis, and now Stephen Jackson, they've got plenty of good guards/swingmen.

JRich could be had. It would deplete our roster to work salary cap deals for JRich and Gasol, but could be done. Maggette might be easier to get in terms of salary, but what do we have that the clips want? The Warriors would want Tyrus, I can guarantee that.

BTW, if we trade Gordon, will we finally pick up Luke Jackson. And how about DaJuan Wagner? Is he finally healthy enough to play?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I have to say I could at least imagine trades for a guy like Richardson or Carter to replace Gordon. Mo Pete would be a cheap-o replacement that won't get it done if we're trying to win a title.

Carter or Richardson would be high risk trades though.


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## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

MikeDC said:


> Chucky Atkins? :lol:
> 
> The JRich idea is interesting, though there are a couple of questions. I'm not a huge fan of his, but he's largely fit the bill. But beyond my questions, there's the fact that he's out with a broken hand till after the all-star break. That's sort of scary to trade for. Likewise his $10M salary.


Plus he's more of a slasher than a shooter, and with Deng, somewhat redundant. I'd be more inclined to look at players like Cuttino Mobley, Ray Allen, or even Ricky Davis (he's similar to Richardson, though).


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

How about we start 1 guard and 3 forwards?


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> I have to say I could at least imagine trades for a guy like Richardson or Carter to replace Gordon. Mo Pete would be a cheap-o replacement that won't get it done if we're trying to win a title.
> 
> Carter or Richardson would be high risk trades though.


You think the team would have enough assets left?


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

Frankensteiner said:


> Plus he's more of a slasher than a shooter, and with Deng, somewhat redundant. I'd be more inclined to look at players like Cuttino Mobley, Ray Allen, or even Ricky Davis (he's similar to Richardson, though).



I think the thoughts of bringing a high paid sg are silly, considering that if you trade for Pau, PJ's contract is gone and you don't have a way of matching a huge salary w/o including 5 or 6 Bulls to match.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> How about we start 1 guard and 3 forwards?


Now, theres a thought. Who would start? Thabo at forward? TT?


----------



## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

lougehrig said:


> The thing that needs to be factored into the Deng conversation is that Nocioni can be immediately plugged in at the SF and brings the sames things (good mid range game, slashing, rebounding). Plus the money set aside to resign Luol can go to Nocioni. Obviously Luol has more potential right now, but the ability to add a semi-star like Gasol and to put an very good player like Nocioni in his place would be great. Deng / Nocioni overlap too much as it is now.
> 
> Trading Gordon would be crazy since we don't a suitable replacement.
> 
> Nocioni + Gasol >> Nocioni + Deng


If there's any truth to this rumor it may be an indication that the Bulls are concerned they will not be able to take on Gasol's contract and then resign by Gordon and Noc while staying under the luxury tax threshold. If Deng is trade and Gordon's extension makes it impossible to resign Noc you're left with a pretty huge hole at the 3 and only the MLE to fill it. Maybe Thabo can play there but it seems the team might be trying to get away from using such small lineups. On the other hand if Gordon is dealt, Deng is resigned, and there's not enough money to resign Noc, you plug in Thabo at the starting two, Tyrus backs up SF and PF, Duhon backs up PG, and all you're lacking is a backup SG. The only issue there is how much you think Thabo can contribute in the short term.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

truebluefan said:


> Now, theres a thought. Who would start? Thabo at forward? TT?


Hinrich, Deng, Nocioni, Gasol, Wallace


----------



## Frankensteiner (Dec 29, 2004)

I don't see a reason why the Nets would move Carter. They've gone on a bit of a run to get back into that #4 spot. 

In general, I'd consider finding a suitable replacement at SG easier than finding one at SF. Nocioni is not a starting SF in my eyes, and you're unlikely to trade one SF (i.e. Noc) for another.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> You think the team would have enough assets left?


probably not, but it might be doable. Post #143 is one way to go about it, though the Nets might not be willing to dump Carter.


----------



## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> If we're going to get crazy and trade Gordon and then trade for a SG, how about Vince Carter?
> 
> Bulls trade Gordon, Sweetney, Allen, Thabo
> Griz trade Gasol, Lawrence Roberts, Tarence Kinsey (and cut Eddie Jones)
> ...


"Well pardon my rant, but..."

Also, I don't like Carter. He's a soft jumpshooter, and I don't think he has the mental toughness to be the first perimeter option on a championship team. 

I like any idea involving JRich more.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

> West is believed to have varying degrees of interest in four of the Bulls' best young established players -- Luol Deng, Kirk Hinrich, Andres Nocioni and Ben Gordon -- and it's safe to assume West would probably want two of them. That would be especially true if he couldn't get Paxson to part with the other valuable commodity he holds -- the Knicks' first-round pick in the Greg Oden-Kevin Durant draft


From today's insider,

So west like nocioni too.......


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

> West is believed to have varying degrees of interest in four of the Bulls' best young established players -- Luol Deng, Kirk Hinrich, Andres Nocioni and Ben Gordon -- and it's safe to assume West would probably want two of them. That would be especially true if he couldn't get Paxson to part with the other valuable commodity he holds -- the Knicks' first-round pick in the Greg Oden-Kevin Durant draft


From today's insider,

So west like nocioni too.......


----------



## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

One reason I don't think the Bulls will trade Gordon is that they drafted Thabo especially because of his compatibility with Gordon. Thabo's value -- being a big guard who can handle and defend -- would be limited in the absense of Gordon.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

All of this second trade stuff for the likes of Carter or Richardson is whacky, I think.

If we need to trade Gordon (with little else but contracts), then we do it. Then we ride it out. If it appears that we can't throw the ball in the ocean without Gordon (a proposition I continue to find absurd and confusing), then we look around in the offseason for a shooter. 

If we give up Gordon, I'd really like to keep everything else in place. 

Obligatory: I'd really rather give up a forward than our scoring guard, though.


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## soonerterp (Nov 13, 2005)

*NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

Don't make this deal.

Something has to be done that doesn't cost the Bulls Deng, Hinrich or Gordon, if they have to have Gasol that badly.

And I'm not that sold on Gasol. He's a good player but it isn't like he's the end-all-be-all.

Hold me I'm scared.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

If we trade Gordon, we better not include the Knicks pick. 

Our best bet to replace Gordon would be a trade for Bonzi Wells. He's only making $2M this year, with a player option for next year. It would be much easier to match salaries for him. Houston has been down on him since he's been out of shape, but it's still only January. He'll round into shape come playoff time. See his series against the Spurs where he flat-out dominated them.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Ron Cey said:


> All of this second trade stuff for the likes of Carter or Richardson is whacky, I think.
> 
> If we need to trade Gordon (with little else but contracts), then we do it. Then we ride it out. If it appears that we can't throw the ball in the ocean without Gordon (a proposition I continue to find absurd and confusing), then we look around in the offseason for a shooter.
> 
> ...


Even if you're willing to "ride it out", you should be aware that Cheapskate Jerry (and logic) will demand that Nocioni not be resigned this summer with Gasol on board.

So if you want something of value for Nocioni you have to trade him, or some other small forward, for something before the deadline. It would make sense for that someone to be a shooting guard.

In short, the idea is not whacky, but sensible.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

This trade WILL happen before I leave my computer. I will sit here for hours!

Eating is...not important.

Must....go.....on......


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> West is believed to have varying degrees of interest in four of the Bulls' best young established players -- Luol Deng, Kirk Hinrich, Andres Nocioni and Ben Gordon -- *and it's safe to assume West would probably want two of them*. That would be especially true if he couldn't get Paxson to part with the other valuable commodity he holds -- the Knicks' first-round pick in the Greg Oden-Kevin Durant draft


Then I think Jerry needs to deal with someone else. 

The only combination that I would even consider - consider, mind you - without immediately laughing it off would be Hinrich and Nocioni.

And right or wrong, does anyone actually believe that Paxson and Skiles would trade *both* Hinrich and Nocioni? They have become the embodiment of this team's identity. 

I'm just not seeing it. 

I would be far more willing to include the Knicks' pick (top 2 protected), to go along with a core player than I would be to include two core players together.


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

The ROY said:


> From today's insider,
> 
> So west like nocioni too.......


Maybe you contemplate moving Noc because of his age, his free agent status, and possible questions about having the money to resign him with Gasol on board but I think two out of those four is pretty absurd. West has to decide whether he wants quantity of quality. Deng and Gordon wouldn't be undeserving All-Stars this season so I don't think you get them paired with an well above average starter in Hinrich/Noc or a lottery pick in the best draft in years. If he wants several different assets, the Celtics are a much better trade partner.


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## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

JeremyB0001 said:


> If there's any truth to this rumor it may be an indication that the Bulls are concerned they will not be able to take on Gasol's contract and then resign by Gordon and Noc while staying under the luxury tax threshold. If Deng is trade and Gordon's extension makes it impossible to resign Noc you're left with a pretty huge hole at the 3 and only the MLE to fill it. Maybe Thabo can play there but it seems the team might be trying to get away from using such small lineups. On the other hand if Gordon is dealt, Deng is resigned, and there's not enough money to resign Noc, you plug in Thabo at the starting two, Tyrus backs up SF and PF, Duhon backs up PG, and all you're lacking is a backup SG. The only issue there is how much you think Thabo can contribute in the short term.


Luxury tax may be an issue next year if we got Gasol, but assuming we can dump Duhon and Sweetney next year we should be able to resign Nocioni for around $8M per season.

In years following next, Wallace's and Hinrich's contracts both decrease annually making it easier to asborb a long-term deal for Gordon.

If you want to win, you gotta have a payroll of at least $60M.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

McBulls said:


> Even if you're willing to "ride it out", you should be aware that Cheapskate Jerry (and logic) will demand that Nocioni not be resigned this summer with Gasol on board.
> 
> So if you want something of value for Nocioni you have to trade him, or some other small forward, for something before the deadline. It would make sense for that someone to be a shooting guard.
> 
> In short, the idea is not whacky, but sensible.


Well, thats actually a pretty good point. :biggrin: 

Though I don't share your concerns regarding "cheapskate Jerry". Logically, though, you may have a point.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Can we buy a dunce cap for John Paxson after this trade? Seriously. We're giving up the better player, plus a first round draft pick. WTF! I'm just going to laugh when Memphis is in the playoffs, and we're on the outside looking in next year (after being the 7th seed this year).

You send Deng over, not Gordon. Deng is the easiest to replace on our team, and isn't Tyrus suppose to be a future three anyhow? We still got Nocioni. Paxson truly is an idiot though, so undoubtedly, I wouldn't be surprised if we ended up trading both Deng and Gordon, and just received expiring contracts back from the Grizzlies.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> All of this second trade stuff for the likes of Carter or Richardson is whacky, I think.
> 
> If we need to trade Gordon (with little else but contracts), then we do it. Then we ride it out. If it appears that we can't throw the ball in the ocean without Gordon (a proposition I continue to find absurd and confusing)


I don't know what to tell you if you're confused into thinking Deng's .414 eFG qualifies him as a perimeter threat. We've tried to explain it in various ways, but you seem to be unwilling to consider what seem to me to be fairly elementary points. :biggrin:



> , then we look around in the offseason for a shooter.


And half-*** it through this season with an incomplete team?

Yes, a second trade would be disruptive to chemistry, but the first one is going to be anyway. If you get it all out of the way, you've got the rest of this season to get it together before we hit the playoffs.

Make a move now and a move in the offseason, an we're still flawed going into the playoffs this year (which is quite possibly 50% of our window of opportunity). And the new guy we'd get this summer would still have to get used to playing with everyone else next season.

No way to that. If we're going to disrupt things, better to get it all over quickly so we can have as much time as possible for the new team to jell.

Of course, the best way to develop this is not to trade Gordon in the first place. I still don't see how he makes tremendous sense for Memphis, except to kill their chances at Odom or Durant and render Kyle Lowry completely useless.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> I would be far more willing to include the Knicks' pick (top 2 protected), to go along with a core player than I would be to include two core players together.


The Knicks' pick can't be protected :|


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/marty_burns/01/24/west.gasol/index.html


> Either way, West said people should not make too much out of Gasol's recent conversation with the owner. He blamed it on frustration over the team's lack of success, and said he wouldn't be surprised if the whole matter blew over.
> 
> *"This came as a surprise to me," West said. "I didn't realize it.* I think it's frustration [on Pau's part]. The last three or four years here have been great for him. He had a great summer with his national team. Winning is a lot easier than having a team that hasn't performed the way it should."
> 
> ...


Jerry West is a liar. You didn't realize he's been moping and barely giving any effort on defense the past 10 games? The trade requests to Spanish media didn't tip you off? Sure, dude.


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## bre9 (Jan 8, 2006)

tired of all these trade rumors Pax is not trading his leading scorer.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

> I don't know what to tell you if you're confused into thinking Deng's .414 eFG qualifies him as a perimeter threat. We've tried to explain it in various ways, but you seem to be unwilling to consider what seem to me to be fairly elementary points. :biggrin:


I did not say that Deng was going to replace Gordon as a perimeter threat or that he's even remotely at that level. 

The argument refuted is that without Gordon, we have an inside heavy offense with poor perimeter balance. That is absurd. Right now our offense is 4 perimeter players with NO interior scoring at all. 

So we trade one of them - the best one admittedly - for an elite inside scoring power forward and somehow we have disgorged ourselves of our perimeter game? 

Thats laughable. Hinrich/Deng/Noc/Gasol is an infinitely more balanced scoring unit than Hinrich/Gordon/Deng/Noc. 

And don't even get me started on defense. 



> And half-*** it through this season with an incomplete team?


I don't think it would be an incomplete team in any meaningful sense. What we have now is an incomplete team. And we all know it. 

I think it would be a team that could add a perimeter shooter in the offseason or during the season with a minor Mo-Pete type of trade. 

I'm not on board with taking another core player and dealing him off. 



> Yes, a second trade would be disruptive to chemistry, but the first one is going to be anyway. If you get it all out of the way, you've got the rest of this season to get it together before we hit the playoffs.


McBulls made a good point that has softened me on this somewhat, but I'm still reluctant. 



> Of course, the best way to develop this is not to trade Gordon in the first place.


Mike, I couldn't agree with that more. I hope I've been pretty clear on that. 

But to me, Gordon isn't a trade killer. 

If we could trade Gordon as the primary for Gasol, would you do it? To me, that is the question. And my answer is an unqualified "yes".


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

bre9 said:


> tired of all these trade rumors Pax is not trading his leading scorer.


Actually, with Pax, the leading scorer is probably the most likely to be traded.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

MikeDC said:


> The Knicks' pick can't be protected :|


Well that sucks. I didn't know that. Why can't we protect it?


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

I agree to an extent that with Gasol's big contract, resigning Ben/Deng/Noc will be hard with Cheapskate Jerry at the controls. 

I would go with trading Nocioni, PJ, & either the pick or Sweets & Duhon. 

Look at how this team appears to be planned for the future if we stand pat....throw a rookie in there probably at PF or C most likely:

PG: Hinrich/Sefolosha
SG: Gordon/Sefolosha
SF: Deng/Nocioni
PF: Nocioni/Thomas
C: Wallace/rookie

Throw Gasol into the mix without Nocioni

PG: Hinrich/Sefolosha
SG: Gordon/Sefolosha
SF: Deng/Thomas
PF: Gasol/Thomas
C: Wallace/Gasol

That is a great lineup IMO. If we're doing the trade now, the Knicks don't appear to be in the top 5 in the draft, so Gasol has more value than that pick. The pick is still very valuable considering the quality of the lottery prospects in this draft, so it and Noc should do the trick...it's all I'd give up of value. In this scenario, you would have to resign Gordon for the SG and Deng for SF. That keeps the current team intact, while providing some size and only losing the oldest player with the lowest ceiling (of our core), and a draft pick that involves a lot more risk than Gasol.


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## bre9 (Jan 8, 2006)

Mebarak said:


> Actually, with Pax, the leading scorer is probably the most likely to be traded.


Without Ben there will be no back court scoring Hinrich/Thabo/Duhon is not even close to Ben's offense. But Gordon should be pround of his self he's averaging 21.3 points a game and now every GM wants him.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

MikeDC said:


> The Knicks' pick can't be protected :|


How do you know that? What are the specifics in trades such as that, do you know of a site to find those "rules"?


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Regarding the 1st round pick.

I don't see why West and Pax can't do a handshake kind of thing where the Bulls pick whoever West wants and then do a draft day trade for a Memphis player they agree on today.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

DaBabyBullz said:


> How do you know that? What are the specifics in trades such as that, do you know of a site to find those "rules"?


As mentioned a few days ago, Sam Smith on a Comcast telecast said swapped picks can't be protected. 

Send Sam a question at the Tribune, I'm sure he'll answer it.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

DaBabyBullz said:


> How do you know that? What are the specifics in trades such as that, do you know of a site to find those "rules"?


I'm not sure any of us were aware of this stipulation until it came up in a recent newspaper column. Was it a Sam Smith column? Who has the link?


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

I believe Sham has confirmed that the pick cannot be protected.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> Regarding the 1st round pick.
> 
> I don't see why West and Pax can't do a handshake kind of thing where the Bulls pick whoever West wants and then do a draft day trade for a Memphis player they agree on today.


Wink wink! Oden for Alexander Johnson. Wink wink!


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

DaBabyBullz said:


> I would go with trading Nocioni, PJ, & either the pick or Sweets & Duhon.
> 
> 
> PG: Hinrich/Sefolosha
> ...


The trade would be more attractive to Memphis if you offered to take Cardinal off their hands (which you could:
Nocioni, PJ, Sweets, Allen & Duhon for Cardinal & Gasol)

PG: Hinrich/Sefolosha
SG: Gordon/Sefolosha
SF: Deng/Thomas/Khryapa
PF: Gasol/Thomas/Cardinal
C: Wallace/Gasol

Of course Cheapskate Jerry would have to spend some money while the Bulls won a few championships. He's done that in the past, but perhaps he was terrified/awed by Jordan in his prime. It remains to be seen if he'll shell out for a championship NBA team that doesn't feature a GOAT player.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

JOHN from RealGM said:


> Luol Deng is getting traded.Trust me on this. My friend who is an Olympiakos executive, during his recent trip(returned yesterday in Athens) met with many Euroleague executives and NBA scouts since Olympiakos wants to sign an American player;but he also spoke with someone from the Bulls.The trade is iminent.Those who remember the Thabo Sefolosha story in May 2006 should know
> 
> I'm sorry Mr.Paxson for the leak but go ahead get Gasol!!!!!


Then he writes this follow-up...


> Deng and PJ Brown is the base of the deal.Just what Greek Television (ERT) reported 4 days ago.
> 
> My friend asked for more details because he knows what a big fan I am but Mr.X said "that's enough for now..I don't know much details either"
> 
> ...


Word seems to be spreading that Luol is on the way out. This report from John seems to support the other thread started by starbury.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

I'm a little slow to get in on the latest bonanza of Gasol news, but...


eeek. I have had a bad feeling that Gordon + extras was the price that it would take to get the conversation started, due largely to Memphis's glut of SF/tweeners. I simply don't know whether I like this trade or not. I fear, deeply, that it's a lateral move unless Pax has a deal for a competent shooting/scoring SG in the works as well, but as ScottMay and many others have said, Gasol is close to being a basketball equivalent of a 5-tool player, he's relatively young, and he seems to fit what this team needs exactly. I just think we need a good outside scoring threat to pair with him if we want to contend, and we won't have that if we give up Gordon.

ugh. what a pickle.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

narek said:


> As mentioned a few days ago, Sam Smith on a Comcast telecast said swapped picks can't be protected.
> 
> Send Sam a question at the Tribune, I'm sure he'll answer it.


OK thanks. It would be nice if there was a site that listed all of the stipulations that are applied to draft picks in trades.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

SALO said:


> Then he writes this follow-up...
> 
> 
> Word seems to be spreading that Luol is on the way out. This report from John seems to support the other thread started by starbury.


I sure hope JOHN is right.


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> I sure hope JOHN is right.


That would be phenomenal, even if it includes the 1/20 chance at landing Durant or Oden.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm getting way ahead of myself, but if by chance we trade Gordon instead of Deng and somehow hold on to the NY pick next year, and the pick settles in the late lottery, let's look at Marco Belinelli. That dude can flat out shoot, and he's got some atleticism too. 

He's a serious marksman.


----------



## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

SALO said:


> Then he writes this follow-up...
> 
> 
> Word seems to be spreading that Luol is on the way out. This report from John seems to support the other thread started by starbury.


That seems a bit contradictory to me. First off, why would a 6'6" SG coming to Chicago indicate Deng is the guy who's getting traded? You'd think that if we're going to pick up a SG, we'd trade...guess what...a *SG*! Why would we get a SG to replace a SF?

Maybe they do know something, but it seems a bit off to me, that we'd be looking at a SG and trade our SF instead of our SG.


----------



## bre9 (Jan 8, 2006)

ViciousFlogging said:


> I'm a little slow to get in on the latest bonanza of Gasol news, but...
> 
> 
> eeek. I have had a bad feeling that Gordon + extras was the price that it would take to get the conversation started, due largely to Memphis's glut of SF/tweeners. I simply don't know whether I like this trade or not. I fear, deeply, that it's a lateral move unless Pax has a deal for a competent shooting/scoring SG in the works as well, but as ScottMay and many others have said, Gasol is close to being a basketball equivalent of a 5-tool player, he's relatively young, and he seems to fit what this team needs exactly. I just think we need a good outside scoring threat to pair with him if we want to contend, and we won't have that if we give up Gordon.
> ...


Nice post exactly what i saying giving up Gordon would still make the bullz have to look for another great sg which is hard to find. Kirk or Thabo is not clucth scorers like Ben. So this trad is a lose-lose situation. After we get gasol here after trading Ben there's still going to be a problem in the backcourt.


----------



## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

ViciousFlogging said:


> but as ScottMay and many others have said, Gasol is close to being a basketball equivalent of a 5-tool player, he's relatively young, and he seems to *fit what this team needs exactly*. I just think we need *a good outside scoring threat to pair with him* if we want to contend, and we won't have that if we give up Gordon.


AAAAAAAAAaaaaarrrrrgggggghhhh!!! :mad2: 

I'm going to say this again and then shut my mouth on the perimeter scoring thing forever:

The reason Gasol fits our "needs exactly" offensively is because the ONLY thing we have is "outside scoring threats" (that occassionally take it to the basket).

Not to mention defense and how he'd pair with Wallace. 

Okay. I'm done. Obviously most of you disagree with me. 

P.S. - I love everyone. :cheers:


----------



## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

DaBabyBullz said:


> That seems a bit contradictory to me. First off, why would a 6'6" SG coming to Chicago indicate Deng is the guy who's getting traded? You'd think that if we're going to pick up a SG, we'd trade...guess what...a *SG*! Why would we get a SG to replace a SF?
> 
> Maybe they do know something, but it seems a bit off to me, that we'd be looking at a SG and trade our SF instead of our SG.


We are scouting that 6'6" kid for next year's draft. He won't be coming over this season. You know, we do have two 2nd-round picks in addition to the Knicks pick.


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## bre9 (Jan 8, 2006)

trading ben then getting gasol still not going to win a championship.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

SALO, I prolly have read JOHN's posts on RealGM, but I don't remember. What did he say about Thabo back in May? I assume the guy is legit as all of you guys are thinking it is. I am not doubting it, its just my memory is drawing a blank. I know between the two boards, some people do have good connections, so it is likely valid.


----------



## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> AAAAAAAAAaaaaarrrrrgggggghhhh!!! :mad2:
> 
> I'm going to say this again and then shut my mouth on the perimeter scoring thing forever:
> 
> ...


I think what Gordon provides that is unique on the Bulls is the ability to get his own shot from the perimeter against tight defense. Championship teams need that kind of player to bail them out at the end of games and at the end of shot clocks. Recently, see Kobe, Chauncy, or Wade.


----------



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> AAAAAAAAAaaaaarrrrrgggggghhhh!!! :mad2:
> 
> I'm going to say this again and then shut my mouth on the perimeter scoring thing forever:
> 
> ...




:cheer:


may i take this opportunity to schill for my signature club?

anyway..i will GO ON THE RECORD saying if it's Deng who is traded i will be _extremely upset_.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> P.S. - I love everyone. :cheers:


This feels like it belongs in the Pau Gasol photos thread.


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## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

I love Deng's game and he is going to continue to improve but he can be replaced by Nocioni this season and Tyrus once he developes (fingers crossed). What we can't replace is Gordon's outside shooting, especially if we trade the Knicks pick along with Ben.


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## bre9 (Jan 8, 2006)

TripleDouble said:


> I think what Gordon provides that is unique on the Bulls is the ability to get his own shot from the perimeter against tight defense. Championship teams need that kind of player to bail them out at the end of games and at the end of shot clocks. Recently, see Kobe, Chauncy, or Wade.


Great post people think hinrich can do that for us which he can't.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

For those of you who are opposed to Deng being traded, whom would you prefer to be traded? Would you object to anyone of the core being traded for a legit, established PF/C? Any team willing to trade with us will want one of the following: Deng, Kirk, and Ben. If you guys are not willing to get a guy by getting rid of one of these players, it won't happen unless we get him via the lottery. No legit low post player will be available for the MLE.


----------



## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> AAAAAAAAAaaaaarrrrrgggggghhhh!!! :mad2:
> 
> I'm going to say this again and then shut my mouth on the perimeter scoring thing forever:
> 
> ...


I agree with you, but do you honestly think the Bulls can win a championship without an elite scoring perimeter threat? How will the Bulls acquire one if Gordon and the pick are traded?


----------



## bre9 (Jan 8, 2006)

theanimal23 said:


> For those of you who are opposed to Deng being traded, whom would you prefer to be traded? Would you object to anyone of the core being traded for a legit, established PF/C? Any team willing to trade with us will want one of the following: Deng, Kirk, and Ben. If you guys are not willing to get a guy by getting rid of one of these players, it won't happen unless we get him via the lottery. No legit low post player will be available for the MLE.


Umm they only want ben and luol not kirk.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> AAAAAAAAAaaaaarrrrrgggggghhhh!!! :mad2:
> 
> I'm going to say this again and then shut my mouth on the perimeter scoring thing forever:
> 
> ...


My last post too, but I can't help myself... sorry :cheers:

I don't disagree that our other guys are outside scorers. Where I disagree is in the assessment that they're threats. Except for Deng, but that's in a totally diffferent way than what we're talking about. Outside scorers yes, threats no.

OK, sorry about that.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> AAAAAAAAAaaaaarrrrrgggggghhhh!!! :mad2:
> 
> I'm going to say this again and then shut my mouth on the perimeter scoring thing forever:
> 
> ...


I don't entirely disagree with you, but I look at Kirk and Deng and Noc, and as much as I love all of them, they can't create offense for themselves the way Ben can, and don't have his ability to get a shot off from anywhere on the court. I think your characterization of Ben as our "best" perimeter player significantly underrates just how "best" he has been lately. Kirk is good at using picks and gets hot with his jumper, but beyond that his scoring repertoire is limited. Deng is fantastic when he gets the ball on cuts and is money with the midrange jumper, but doesn't have range or the ability to create a shot in isolation consistently. Noc can hit the 3 and that opens up some penetration for him sometimes, but you don't give him the ball and say "score" either. Gordon's offensive arsenal has become nearly unlimited this season IMO, and I don't think that can be understated. It makes him much more valuable in trade, but also to US.


Basically, I think a team that had both Ben and Gasol would be almost unguardable because you have two guys that can manufacture offense within and, when needed, outside the team concept. A team with Gasol and no Ben would probably have to recalibrate itself so that everything goes through Pau initially, which is a formula that is more common in the NBA and quite a bit easier to gameplan for, IMO.


----------



## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

SALO said:


> Then he writes this follow-up...
> 
> 
> Word seems to be spreading that Luol is on the way out. This report from John seems to support the other thread started by starbury.


Who is JOHN? Does he have a history of breaking stories and leaking inside info?


----------



## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

Ron Cey said:


> AAAAAAAAAaaaaarrrrrgggggghhhh!!! :mad2:
> 
> I'm going to say this again and then shut my mouth on the perimeter scoring thing forever:
> 
> ...


I think where you disagree with us in the fact that you either seem to think that

A)one or more of the guys who would be left over would be able to:
1)create shots for himself and others and 
2)make the big clutch shots that pretty much nobody on the team other than Gordon has managed to make the past 2+ years. 

or 

B)You believe that the team doesn't need such a guy and will be able to break the usual mold and be the only team in the last 25+ years other than Houston in 94' and maybe San Antone in 99'* to win it all without such a player.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

ScottMay said:


> This feels like it belongs in the Pau Gasol photos thread.


More appropriate: 

:kiss: 

or

 

or 

:crowded: (use your imagination) 

or 

:bananallama: (which is my emoticon for sexing Ann Rynd, which is not too much more palatable than sexing Pow! Gasol)


----------



## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

bre9 said:


> Umm they only want ben and luol not kirk.


Yeah I know that. It's been all over the news. That wasn't the point of my post.

I'm asking in regards to any trade, today, our most established players are Kirk, Ben, and Luol. Any team wanting to make a trade would consider receiving one or more of these guys. Thabo and Tyrus, maybe, but they are not established.

What I am asking is, for those who are opposed to trading Luol, are they opposed to trading any of the core or Luol specifically.

I think Noce would be traded before those 3, if we can, but the other team would not want him due to his age.


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

I think Deng has the most value of their young three (Ben, Kirk, Loul) and West would be nuts not to get him included. 

If I'm Jerry, I don't sign anything that doesn't include Mr. Deng and the New York 1st.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

RebelSun said:


> If I'm Jerry, I don't sign anything that doesn't include Mr. Deng and the New York 1st.


I'm hoping that and PJ is all it takes.


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## bre9 (Jan 8, 2006)

theanimal23 said:


> Yeah I know that. It's been all over the news. That wasn't the point of my post.
> 
> I'm asking in regards to any trade, today, our most established players are Kirk, Ben, and Luol. Any team wanting to make a trade would consider receiving one or more of these guys. Thabo and Tyrus, maybe, but they are not established.
> 
> ...


ok i get what ur saying


----------



## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> SALO, I prolly have read JOHN's posts on RealGM, but I don't remember. What did he say about Thabo back in May? I assume the guy is legit as all of you guys are thinking it is. I am not doubting it, its just my memory is drawing a blank. I know between the two boards, some people do have good connections, so it is likely valid.


I'm not certain, but I think he said Ivica Dukan (Bulls international scout) was scouting Thabo heavily and could be seen at many of his games. After the draft was over, Paxson said Thabo was highly recommended by Dukan. JOHN has always let us know when the Bulls are scouting certain players overseas. Thabo was a bit of a surprise because most people thought (including myself) that Pax would pick/trade up for Ronnie Brewer.


----------



## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

DaBullz said:


> Hinrich started out incredibly hot. He was shooting over 50% from 3pt range for quite a while. He's obviously not a 50% 3pt shooter. For his 3pt% to fall to 39%, he's been shooting well below that for quite a while. It's not just some temporary kind of streak.
> 
> For Gordon, it's the reverse. His well talked about slow start... He was shooting about 30% for a long time. For his 3pt% to get to .414, he's been hot from 3pt for an extended period.
> 
> Be honest. When Hinrich puts up a 3pt shot, do you really have confidence it's going in? I don't, but I'm really happy when it does. When Gordon puts up a 3pt shot, even with 2 guys in his face at the end of a quarter, do you have confidence it's going in? I do.


Hinrich is at .373 for his career and that's 275 games so we don't have to talk about silly things like hot starts and slow starts. I already said my gut tells me I'd rather have Gordon take an important three but that has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. I am responding to the concern that the Bulls would have no outside to space the floor if Gordon were traded. Hinrich is an above average three point shooter as is Noc and Deng takes a lot of 17 footers so I think the concern is overblown. I'm not really sure how one day people are complaining because we supposedly derrive all of our offense from jump shooting and then the next Gordon can't be moved because we won't have any perimeter shooting left over.


----------



## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

rwj333 said:


> I agree with you, but do you honestly think the Bulls can win a championship without an elite scoring perimeter threat? How will the Bulls acquire one if Gordon and the pick are traded?


Do you really think they can win the Championship with what they have now? I don't.

I think they can win the East. Maybe. Because the East is down. But I think they'd get slaughtered in the Finals. 

Is it harder to find a perimeter guy who can create a shot or a 26 year old, elite, scoring, 7'1" power forward? 

And how often is one going to be ripe for the taking? I'll answer that: Never again. Never, ever, ever again. 

(see how I didn't mention perimeter scoring that time?:biggrin: )


----------



## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

SALO said:


> I'm not certain, but I think he said Ivica Dukan (Bulls international scout) was scouting Thabo heavily and could be seen at many of his games. After the draft was over, Paxson said Thabo was highly recommended by Dukan. JOHN has always let us know when the Bulls are scouting certain players overseas. Thabo was a bit of a surprise because most people thought (including myself) that Pax would pick/trade up for Ronnie Brewer.


Thanks. I remember hearing about this now. That was months ago and in the back of my mind. 

John's post said this rumor was on the Greece News 4 days ago?, and www.starbury.com?, I believe mentioned something about some broadcaster or coach who had been in touch with Luol's agent. These two leaks sound very legit, I'm wondering what is taking so long for the deal to be announced. Maybe they got the main pieces solved, but are working on the fillers who are needed.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Excellent trade!

Gasol for Gordon/Brown/Knicks pick - Top 2 protected.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

Ron Cey said:


> Do you really think they can win the Championship with what they have now? I don't.
> 
> I think they can win the East. Maybe. Because the East is down. But I think they'd get slaughtered in the Finals.
> 
> ...


You can ask the question this way as well: is it harder to find a guy who can score in bunches and make damn well sure we don't cough up a 4th quarter lead or some 7'1 soft power forward in a bottom feeding team ? 

We had a soft 7'1 power forward before, they must be in abundance or something.


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

theanimal23 said:


> Thanks. I remember hearing about this now. That was months ago and in the back of my mind.
> 
> John's post said this rumor was on the Greece News 4 days ago?, and www.starbury.com?, I believe mentioned something about some broadcaster or coach who had been in touch with Luol's agent. These two leaks sound very legit, I'm wondering what is taking so long for the deal to be announced. Maybe they got the main pieces solved, but are working on the fillers who are needed.


Yeah, the fact starbury is saying the same thing but from a different source is what has me convinced. PJ + Deng for Gasol is certain, all that's left is for the two sides to agree on the rest of the components (Duhon? Thabo? Cardinal? Knicks pick? 2008 pick?).


----------



## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

SALO said:


> We are scouting that 6'6" kid for next year's draft. He won't be coming over this season. You know, we do have two 2nd-round picks in addition to the Knicks pick.


Yes, I'm aware of that. You have to replace DENG, so we'd need to get a SF instead of a SG. 2nd rounders aren't crap. The only place we're likely at all to get a guy of Deng's caliber is in the lottery, or at least 1st round.


----------



## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

The 6ft Hurdle said:


> We had a soft 7'1 power forward before, they must be in abundance or something.


Gasol isn't exactly Brad Sellers.

I mean, I'm with you as far as Gordon being (almost) untouchable, but if we do make the trade, I can see why. Gasol is a wonderful and still young talent.


----------



## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

ViciousFlogging said:


> Gasol isn't exactly Brad Sellers.
> 
> I mean, I'm with you as far as Gordon being (almost) untouchable, but if we do make the trade, I can see why. Gasol is a wonderful and still young talent.


I agree, I just thought Cey was completely underselling BG.

It's a lateral move, I don't know what else to say (other than to engage in Gay and ****-bashing, which is in another thread) until something develops.


----------



## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Yes, I'm aware of that. You have to replace DENG, so we'd need to get a SF instead of a SG. 2nd rounders aren't crap. The only place we're likely at all to get a guy of Deng's caliber is in the lottery, or at least 1st round.


You think by trading Deng for Gasol, we're still going to acquire another SF to replace Deng, and that player will be as good as Deng? Please. Even if we took back another SF like Warrick, he wouldn't get any playing time here. 

SF: Nocioni, Tyrus, Viktor, Thabo, Griffin. 

That's 5 guys right there capable of playing the 3 for us. Taking back another SF instead of a SG wouldn't even matter. We're crunched for minutes at that spot as it is.


----------



## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> Do you really think they can win the Championship with what they have now? I don't.
> 
> I think they can win the East. Maybe. Because the East is down. But I think they'd get slaughtered in the Finals.
> 
> ...


What is the probability that the Bulls can get the 1st or 3rd pick in the draft (Oden or Noah) and what is the probability that the Bulls can trade for an elite guard after trading Gordon and the Knicks pick? 

The probability for both situations looks about equal to me. And the first option leaves the Bulls with more assets to trade with, and more flexibility imo. 

I guess I just think it's a lot closer than you make it sound.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

Losing Deng hurts but not as much as losing Ben would. Let's hope Tyrus really does develop into that SF/PF type we thought he might become.


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## Ron Cey (Dec 27, 2004)

The 6ft Hurdle said:


> You can ask the question this way as well: is it harder to find a guy who can score in bunches and make damn well sure we don't cough up a 4th quarter lead or some 7'1 soft power forward in a bottom feeding team ?
> 
> We had a soft 7'1 power forward before, they must be in abundance or something.


You've got to be kidding. In no way have I downplayed Gordon's contributions to this team. He's the *last* guy I want to trade for Gasol.

But you can't possibly believe that create-your-own-shot shooting guards are in shorter supply than allstar caliber scoring 7 foot power forwards.


----------



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> You've got to be kidding. In no way have I downplayed Gordon's contributions to this team. He's the *last* guy I want to trade for Gasol.
> 
> But you can't possibly believe that create-your-own-shot shooting guards are in shorter supply than allstar caliber scoring 7 foot power forwards.


I have to agree with you and many posters about this: there's no single player on the Bulls I wouldn't trade for Gasol. There are a few combinations of players I would not trade for him though, most notably Deng and Gordon.


----------



## lougehrig (Mar 1, 2005)

Conspiracy theorists on the Grizzlies board say Gasol to be traded within 48 hours. This is their proof:

http://www.basketballforum.com/showthread.php?p=4421779#post4421779


----------



## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

SALO said:


> You think by trading Deng for Gasol, we're still going to acquire another SF to replace Deng, and that player will be as good as Deng? Please. Even if we took back another SF like Warrick, he wouldn't get any playing time here.
> 
> SF: Nocioni, Tyrus, Viktor, Thabo, Griffin.
> 
> That's 5 guys right there capable of playing the 3 for us. Taking back another SF instead of a SG wouldn't even matter. We're crunched for minutes at that spot as it is.


No, I was simply stating the fact that if we wanted to TRY and get a guy of Deng's caliber to replace him, taking a SG isn't the way to go. Right now, of our more important, and noteworthy players, this is our lineup (if we traded Deng for Gasol), and assuming Duchump is shipped out as he should be:

Hinrich/Sefolosha
Gordon/Sefolosha
Nocioni
Gasol/Thomas
Wallace/Gasol

Obviously Thomas's skill-set is strictly power forward, and would be best utilized at PF with Gasol at C. If we had both Gasol and Thomas, Nocioni should play strictly SF, and that leaves you with a bunch of guys who got DNP CD's as backups at SF. Viktor might be the answer, but we'd still be very unathletic at the SF position as we are right now with Deng. They want a long, athletic team...well we wouldn't be long or athletic at the SF if Deng was shipped out would we? Sefolosha is more of a combo guard than a SF, but he could play it some too, but he wouldn't be as effective there as he would at G where he has a size advantage. Griffin isn't even worth taking into consideration.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> AAAAAAAAAaaaaarrrrrgggggghhhh!!! :mad2:
> 
> I'm going to say this again and then shut my mouth on the perimeter scoring thing forever:
> 
> ...


Sue Paxson! Sue Skiles! Sue Reinsdorf.

Lookie, an ambulance smiley:
:wahmbulance:

Oh yeah:
:stupid:


----------



## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> I have to agree with you and many posters about this: there's no single player on the Bulls I wouldn't trade for Gasol. There are a few combinations of players I would not trade for him though, most notably Deng and Gordon.


:yes: This is how I see it as well. Unfortunately, Jerry West has to agree too. I wouldn't blame him if he views Gasol for what he is...a very talented, young, 7-foot PF who can both post up and hit the open jumper and figures to be a 20-point, 9-10 rebound, 3 assist, 2 block player for several years when he hits his fast-approaching prime. Frankly, I can't blame West for expecting to get a whole lot in return for Gasol.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

lougehrig said:


> Conspiracy theorists on the Grizzlies board say Gasol to be traded within 48 hours. This is their proof:
> 
> http://www.basketballforum.com/showthread.php?p=4421779#post4421779



Dont know if Oliver Stone would have been interested in that one but i would think teams would want to move quickly on a trade. You could run the risk of a couple of things squashing the whole deal, most notably injury or other teams jumping to the front of the line. Espn i guess was running something to the effect that there were 9 teams in the hunt for Gasol, obviously most teams would be for the right price so who knows who the teams were. If the Bulls are confident that he makes them a better team then pull the trigger.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> I have to agree with you and many posters about this: there's no single player on the Bulls I wouldn't trade for Gasol. There are a few combinations of players I would not trade for him though, most notably Deng and Gordon.


Isn't the pick similarly valuable, though? That's my biggest issue with the trade. I think the Bulls have very limited options for picking up a suitable shooting guard if it happens. 

Hinrich's value is going down as he gets older and it becomes more obvious he is locked in at 16/6 offensively. Nocioni, too, is relatively old and unattractive as a trade asset. Gasol won't be traded again. Tyrus Thomas is not going to receive playing time, and is not going to develop with Nocioni, Deng, Wallace, and Gasol in front of him. I question how much Deng is going to improve past this season. 

Ultimately the goal is to win an NBA championship, and while I love Gasol and think he makes this team immediately better, I'm not sure this particular trade works to that end.


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)

This was probably mentioned in the thread, I didn't see it skimming through the 16 pages, but Memphis plays Utah tonight so we can see if Gasol suits up.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

JRose5 said:


> This was probably mentioned in the thread, I didn't see it skimming through the 16 pages, but Memphis plays Utah tonight so we can see if Gasol suits up.


If he doesnt suit up you've got a serious scoop.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

He'll suit up...

Still in shock that Pax offered Gordon..


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

JRose5 said:


> This was probably mentioned in the thread, I didn't see it skimming through the 16 pages, but Memphis plays Utah tonight so we can see if Gasol suits up.


as I posted in another thread...

From the ESPN Jazz-Grizzlies preview:

Injury Report 
MEMPHIS 
· Stromile Swift FC - Jan 23: Out
· Pau Gasol FC - Jan 22: Day-To-Day

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/preview?gameId=270124026


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> He'll suit up...
> 
> Still in shock that Pax offered Gordon..


Personally i'm surprised so much of it is public, i guess they dont care if they alienate players nowadays. Some of it might be just taking the tempature of the fans to see their reaction. As for Gordon being offered(if he was) Paxson must think Deng is the more valuable of the two. Have to admit a froncourt of Gasol, Ben and Deng is rather imposing.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

tempature?


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

rainman said:


> Personally i'm surprised so much of it is public, i guess they dont care if they alienate players nowadays. Some of it might be just taking the tempature of the fans to see their reaction. As for Gordon being offered(if he was) Paxson must think Deng is the more valuable of the two. Have to admit a froncourt of Gasol, Ben and Deng is rather imposing.


Yeah, we'd get 20 & 18 a game respectively from both forwards but the clutch scoring is the big issue.

On top of all this, if you're building around those two, where does TT fit into the picture? He'll need to start sooner or later.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Yeah, the PT for TT problem as time goes on is a bit of an issue, IMO...


----------



## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Yeah, we'd get 20 & 18 a game respectively from both forwards but the clutch scoring is the big issue.
> 
> On top of all this, if you're building around those two, where does TT fit into the picture? He'll need to start sooner or later.


You must mean 20 and 8 respectively, i think the big plus with Gasol is you can pretty much run the offense through him and he should make Wallace much more effective.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

By the time TT is 22 Big Ben's fro will be gray.

If anyone learned anything from the Twin Towers experiment, its a good idea to wait on these raw players for a while. Otherwise, don't draft them.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

rainman said:


> You must mean 20 and 8 respectively, i think the big plus with Gasol is you can pretty much run the offense through him and he should make Wallace much more effective.


20 from gasol and 18 from luol


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> By the time TT is 22 Big Ben's fro will be gray.
> 
> If anyone learned anything from the Twin Towers experiment, its a good idea to wait on these raw players for a while. Otherwise, don't draft them.


C Gasol
F TT
F Deng

= :clap:


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

The ROY said:


> C Gasol
> F TT
> F Deng
> 
> = :clap:


Bingo.

People will complain that we'd be too skinny n' soft... perhaps they are right... but the future would be hardly gloomy with that being the downside of a failed "win now" run.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> By the time TT is 22 Big Ben's fro will be gray.
> 
> If anyone learned anything from the Twin Towers experiment, its a good idea to wait on these raw players for a while. Otherwise, don't draft them.


True enough, but I don't see Pau being a real center, so he's not going to replace Ben. Gasol is definitely a tall PF, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm still hoping that our eventual Big Ben replacement will be found with the Knicks pick in the 2007 draft.

Not saying the Pau/TT/Deng lineup would be a failure, but I wouldn't call it ideal either.


----------



## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> 20 from gasol and 18 from luol



Gotcha, as i've said before though i dont think you measure good players by just numbers, If Pau can command double teams in the low post everyone is going to benefit.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

rainman said:


> Gotcha, as i've said before though i dont think you measure good players by just numbers, If Pau can command double teams in the low post everyone is going to benefit.


I wasn't really measuring them by numbers, but just stating what we could expect out of our starting forward tandem.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

The ROY said:


> C Gasol
> F TT
> F Deng
> 
> = :clap:


That does look pretty good, with Kirk and Thabo at the guards. Assuming our rookies come along as we hope (and they've shown signs of being able to) that would be a good starting 5 for sure. The 2-4 would be really athletic and long, and the 1 would be a good all around player, and the 5 would be the size and inside scoring. Sounds good to me, but there are a lot of IFs there. It'd be really good if we can keep the NYK pick and get a stud at ANY position with it....if we do this trade, we can really grab a guy at any position, BPA all the way, but of course a scoring SG would be the biggest question mark. At least then a top 2 pick for Oden/Durant wouldn't be as necessary.


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Ron Cey said:


> AAAAAAAAAaaaaarrrrrgggggghhhh!!! :mad2:
> 
> I'm going to say this again and then shut my mouth on the perimeter scoring thing forever:
> 
> ...


I'm ready to argue this point.

To me this is a much better lineup:

Pau
Deng
Noc
Hinrich
My left nut
Wallace and Thomas off the bench

Than this:

Wallace
Pau
Noc
Hinrich
Gordon

The reason you're so convinced we absolutely need perimiter scoring in addition to Hinrich, is because the team, in its current rendition, absolutely does. But once you have a post player dropping a consistent twenty a game, all of that changes. 

Noc doesn't play as well at small forward as he does at the power slot, and Deng is the perfect compliment to cover up his weaknesses on defense and the boards. Hinrich and Gordon have never played well together and it has little to do with their stature. They just dominate the ball too much. The top lineup is an international, get the ball up the court, versatile lineup. (My nut can also hit a jump shot.) The bottom lineup is just an ill-formed hodge-podge of talent.

Gordon may be 'better' than Deng, but I think, personel wise, I'd rather move little Ben.


----------



## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> True enough, but I don't see Pau being a real center, so he's not going to replace Ben. Gasol is definitely a tall PF, as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> I'm still hoping that our eventual Big Ben replacement will be found with the Knicks pick in the 2007 draft.
> 
> Not saying the Pau/TT/Deng lineup would be a failure, but I wouldn't call it ideal either.


I really like that lineup. Pau's size, with TT's hops and shot blocking would be a good duo I think. Deng is long and athletic too. 

As far as the draft, of course Oden would be a great addition next to Pau/Tyrus, or Durant as well. The best thing though is that I believe Pau could move to C eventually, and it wouldn't be such a big deal if we didn't get our future Center.


----------



## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

The one real big advantage to trading Gordon over Deng is defense. Ben isn't as good on defense, and he's also part of a big mismatch on defense too (Nets game ring a bell?). That is the only thing I can see better about trading Ben...well, he's also 3 years older than Deng too. Anyone else got anything, aside from the way the lineup would look?


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

DaBabyBullz said:


> The one real big advantage to trading Gordon over Deng is defense. Ben isn't as good on defense, and he's also part of a big mismatch on defense too (Nets game ring a bell?). That is the only thing I can see better about trading Ben...well, he's also 3 years older than Deng too. Anyone else got anything, aside from the way the lineup would look?


As much as I love Deng's game, I'd much rather move him regardless of Ben's flaws on the defensive end. To his credit, he's become a MUCH better defender than he was even last season.

Gordon & Gasol would be a hell of a 1-2 punch.


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

From an 82games.com article today.....


5. Tyrus Thomas
The 20-year old out of LSU spent a lot of time on the pine in the 1st half of the season. In the 10 games where he's played 15+ minutes, his averages are: 20.3 minutes, 8.5 points, 5.9 boards, 1.2 steals, and 2.2 blocks. That's some serious stat stuffing. His 4.5 blocks per 48 minutes is 2nd behind only Alonzo Mourning and his +1.4 Roland Rating (behind only Gordon and Deng among Bulls) shows he's making a difference on the court. Former fantasy stud Scottie Pippen has been working with Thomas and says he sees a lot of himself in Tyrus. *Don't expect much right now, but if the Bulls decide to shake things up with a trade, Thomas might have value in the 2nd half.*

Deng makes more sense to trade. Gordon is just the better player period. Plus, our roster is more balanced trading Deng instead of Gordon. Nocioni, Thomas, and Krapper can all fill in, Thabo too even! Gordon, well, we're not that good without Gordon.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

A small thing to consider -- if Boston is one of the teams still in the mix for Gasol, they suffered the sort of humiliating loss tonight that could be what pushes a GM over the top and make a trade.

They blew a huge lead vs. a Hawks team that has been beyond hapless on the road. Just a sickening loss from their perspective, regardless of their injury situation.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Man, AND a first? Seems like a lot for Gasol. I would do everything to trade Deng, not Gordon, for Gasol. Gordon is really a better scorer than Gasol, so they'd probably be getting worse on the offensive end.

PG: Kirk Hinrich...Chris Duhon
SG: Andres Nocioni...Thabo Sefolosha
SF: Luol Deng...Adrian Griffin
PF: Pau Gasol...Tyrus Thomas
C: Ben Wallace...Michael Sweetney


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> I'm ready to argue this point.
> 
> To me this is a much better lineup:
> 
> ...


If Pau could carry a team offensively, he would have at least one playoff win in 12 tries on his resume. (Memphis was a fantastic defensive team the past 3 seasons. 2nd in defensive efficiency last year. 5th the year before that.) 

If Wallace is coming off the bench, the Bulls should trade him after acquiring Gasol.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

This makes a lot of sense: trade Gordon and start Luol or Noce at SG.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> If Pau could carry a team offensively, he would have at least one playoff win in 12 tries on his resume. (Memphis was a fantastic defensive team the past 3 seasons. 2nd in defensive efficiency last year. 5th the year before that.)
> 
> If Wallace is coming off the bench, the Bulls should trade him after acquiring Gasol.


Keep in mind they were playing the #1 seed every year and he didnt exactly have the 95 Bulls to play along side of. As for carrying a team how far have Allen Iverson, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett, Zach Randolph, Jason Richardson......taken their teams in recent years?


----------



## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

rainman said:


> Keep in mind they were playing the #1 seed every year


not true


----------



## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Babble-On said:


> not true


Right #1 seed one year, WC champion one year, NBA champion one year.


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## lgtwins (May 18, 2004)

Gordon is not going anywhere!!!

http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/story.asp?id=273344

*************

Coach Scott Skiles denied a published report that the Bulls have already offered Gordon and a first-round pick. <b>Not only haven’t the Bulls offered Gordon, according to a team source, they probably never will.</b>

Asked to imagine a Bulls lineup with Gasol at power forward, Gordon envisioned a trip to the NBA Finals.

*************

One side note about Hinrich: <b>It’s been written many places, including here, that he’s difficult to trade right now because of signing a contract extension just before the start of the season.

Not true.</b> There are special salary-cap rules for players who sign extensions, but in the latest collective-bargaining agreement, salaries only have to match within 25 percent, instead of the previous 15 percent, for trades to work.

So a theoretical trade sending Hinrich, P.J. Brown and Andre Barrett to Memphis for Gasol and guard Dahntay Jones would be allowed.


----------



## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

lgtwins said:


> Gordon is not going anywhere!!!
> 
> http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/story.asp?id=273344
> 
> ...


But rememember this line: 



> As the Bulls prepared Wednesday to face the scorching-hot Dallas Mavericks tonight at the United Center, Skiles acknowledged that Gasol is simply a distraction they’ll have to endure.
> 
> “*We all know these are temp jobs. At any moment the phone could ring and we’re all gone,”* Skiles said. “You can’t go up to people every day and say, ‘You’re not going anywhere.’ Because then all of the sudden you’re a liar a month later.”


McGraw's story is interesting - the leaks started because Memphis was looking to generate interest in Gasol. West isn't in fire sale - he's staring an auction.

I liked this quote from Skiles in the Sun-Times:



> Coach Scott Skiles denied a report Wednesday that the Bulls have offered Ben Gordon to the Memphis Grizzlies as part of a trade package for Pau Gasol.
> 
> ''That's not true,'' Skiles said. ''I know everybody has a job to do, but that's unfair to everybody. *I don't want anybody to rat out their sources or whatever, but is it really a source or just made up? It could be my grandmother told me that because she read it on draftexpress[.com].*''


So Skiles and Pax are both very aware of online basketball sites (Pax talked about the trade checkers in his last half-time interview. That'll be up at bulls.com soon.).


Skiles: Gordon for Gasol trade rumor 'not true'


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

> Josh, Chicago: Pau to Chicago? Any closer to going through? Whats it going to take Chicago to make it happen?
> 
> SportsNation Chad Ford: (12:07 PM ET ) I think the Bulls are the only obvious trade partner for Gasol. They need him and have enough assets to get him without gutting their whole team. What do I think is a fair deal?
> 
> ...


from ford's chat today


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

> *"There's really nothing out there.* It's obvious he's asked to be traded. But there's a very small chance that would happen," said Jerry West. "We're all frustrated with how we've played here. Our biggest problem. Is not up front. Our biggest problem is in the backcourt. We've had injuries back there, and some players have not played well.
> 
> "It's frustrating when your best player wants to be traded. In this environment, a small market, it's not an easy thing to do."


Doesn't sound to fond of the offer's he's recieving


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Well I hope that West continues to not be happy with the offers, unless of course he gets desparate and takes a real low-ball offer from us. I don't wanna give up more than one core player and filler for him, or the pick and filler...no combination of 2 of the core/pick.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

> Nathanael (KC): More valuable trade chip, Deng or Gordon? Tyrus Thomas or Knicks pick?
> 
> SportsNation Chad Ford: (12:21 PM ET ) Deng ... but I think he's the untouchable piece for the Bulls. The other three could all be traded, but I don't think Deng is going anywhere.


I woulda thought Gordon woulda been the untradeable one


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> I woulda thought Gordon woulda been the untradeable one


Yeah, you can tell these things by the 30 minutes/game he gets and the coming off the bench.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

DaBullz said:


> Yeah, you can tell these things by the 30 minutes/game he gets and the coming off the bench.


he plays more than 30 minutes now and he doesn't come off the bench anymore....

next


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The ROY said:


> he plays more than 30 minutes now and he doesn't come off the bench anymore....
> 
> next


Showcase for trade.

next.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

> Keep in mind that Grizzlies GM Jerry West is in no hurry to make this move, though, and he’s going to try and hold out for two of the Bulls’ big three (Deng, Kirk Hinrich, and Ben Gordon), which will most likely never happen under John Paxson’s conservative trading style. Bulls coach Scott Skiles mentioned at a team practice yesterday that Gordon had not been offered to Memphis, and probably never would be. In other words, if the trade does happen, it will center around either Deng or Hinrich, but not both. And certainly not Gordon—even though West will certainly ask for as much as possible for his only major tradeable asset.


Hoopsworld.com

Would anyone here do Hinrich,Deng & Brown for Gasol + filler?

We keep TT, Gordon & the pick 

G Gordon / Duhon
G Sefolosha
F Thomas / Khyrapa
F Gasol / Nocioni
C Wallace

hell of a 8-man rotation.


----------



## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Hoopsworld.com
> 
> Would anyone here do Hinrich,Deng & Brown for Gasol + filler?
> 
> ...


Yes, but it's the absolute most I would give up if offering those 2 players, and I wouldn't offer it right away. 

I doubt most people here would consider it, though. Deng and Hinrich are probably the two most popular players on the team.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

rwj333 said:


> Yes, but it's the absolute most I would give up if offering those 2 players, and I wouldn't offer it right away.
> 
> I doubt most people here would consider it, though. Deng and Hinrich are probably the two most popular players on the team.


I would think the two Ben's would have something to say about that.


----------



## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

The ROY said:


> I would think the two Ben's would have something to say about that.


Big Ben is NOT very popular from what I've seen. If he wants popularity, go to Detroit, cause in Chicago he certainly isn't anywhere near the level of Hinrich and Deng. Lil Ben on the other hand I agree with. Deng is my 4th on the team, behind Kirk, Lil Ben, and Tyrus. Big Ben I'm not a fan of at all.


----------



## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

The ROY said:


> Hoopsworld.com
> 
> Would anyone here do Hinrich,Deng & Brown for Gasol + filler?
> 
> ...


I wouldn't do that. You don't give up your stud PG and SF for a stud PF. It'd be different if we didn't have Wallace and Gasol would play C, but when you already have Tyrus as the future at PF, and your guys off the bench don't compare to Kirk and Luol, you gotta keep them. I'd give up 1 of them and filler, but not 2. No way in hell.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

DaBabyBullz said:


> I wouldn't do that. You don't give up your stud PG and SF for a stud PF. It'd be different if we didn't have Wallace and Gasol would play C, but when you already have Tyrus as the future at PF, and your guys off the bench don't compare to Kirk and Luol, you gotta keep them. I'd give up 1 of them and filler, but not 2. No way in hell.


Since when is Hinrich a stud? he's good but Deron Williams, Chris Paul etc. are STUDS

I'd much rather give up Hinrich than Gordon, same with giving up Nocioni over Deng.....


----------



## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

The ROY said:


> Since when is Hinrich a stud? he's good but Deron Williams, Chris Paul etc. are STUDS
> 
> I'd much rather give up Hinrich than Gordon, same with giving up Nocioni over Deng.....


Hinrich is definitely top 10, and probably higher than that. I would probably trade him before Ben too, but don't underestimate the importance of a good PG. If the PG sucks so does the rest of the team usually. 

Hinrich's assist #s would probably skyrocket if he had a post scorer to feed the ball to. When his assists rely on someone shooting a long range jumper, or a poor post player, there's a lower completion % and less likely to get the assist there.


----------



## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Hinrich is definitely top 10, and probably higher than that. I would probably trade him before Ben too, but don't underestimate the importance of a good PG. If the PG sucks so does the rest of the team usually.


Derek Fisher, Jason Williams, and Avery Johnson have been starting PGs for championship teams.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

rwj333 said:


> Derek Fisher, Jason Williams, and Avery Johnson have been starting PGs for championship teams.


ron harper, too.


----------



## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

rwj333 said:


> Derek Fisher, Jason Williams, and Avery Johnson have been starting PGs for championship teams.


Fisher did a good job, was a deadly shooter for them in the clutch, and played with Kobe and Shaq. Avery played with David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Sean Elliot, Robert Horry. Jason played with D Wade, Shaq, etc. Those teams were stacked, with several superstars on each team. I said USUALLY if a team's pg SUCKS, the team will suck. Those PGs certainly didn't suck regardless, if that's the point you're trying to make.


----------



## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

DaBullz said:


> ron harper, too.


He falls into the same category as those other 3. A good guard (who didn't even play the point really, Pippen did quite a bit), who had 2 superstars (Jordan and Pippen) and another semi-superstar in Rodman on his team. Not too hard to win when you have 2 of the top 50 players OF ALL TIME on your team.


----------



## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

DaBabyBullz said:


> He falls into the same category as those other 3. A good guard (who didn't even play the point really, Pippen did quite a bit), who had 2 superstars (Jordan and Pippen) and another semi-superstar in Rodman on his team. Not too hard to win when you have 2 of the top 50 players OF ALL TIME on your team.


So Shaq, Wade, Kobe, Duncan, MJ, Pippen, Olajuwon are not point guards. But they've been largely responsible for, what, 14 of the last 15 championships?


----------



## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

rwj333 said:


> So Shaq, Wade, Kobe, Duncan, MJ, Pippen, Olajuwon are not point guards. But they've been largely responsible for, what, 14 of the last 15 championships?


I said if the POINT GUARD SUCKS!!!! Last time I checked their PGs didn't suck for one, and I also said that usually, if the PG sucks, the team does. NOT ALWAYS! On OUR team, if our PG sucked, so would the team, because we have no one anywhere near ANY of those players' caliber on our team. We have a bunch of above average players or good players, no STARS. Teams like OURS suck if they don't have a good PG, because no one else can compensate.


----------



## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Hoopsworld.com
> 
> Would anyone here do Hinrich,Deng & Brown for Gasol + filler?
> 
> ...


That rotation would cause the 2 remaining hairs on Skiles' head to fall out and I believe mine would fall out shortly after. Thabo and Thomas are still way too young to depend on for alot of minutes. Both rookies make way too many mistakes.


----------



## step (Sep 19, 2005)

> Would anyone here do Hinrich,Deng & Brown for Gasol + filler?


Only if that filler is Rudy Gay or their pick, and I'm not even so sure then.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

L.O.B said:


> That rotation would cause the 2 remaining hairs on Skiles' head to fall out and I believe mine would fall out shortly after. Thabo and Thomas are still way too young to depend on for alot of minutes. Both rookies make way too many mistakes.


So play Noc & Griffin there instead

but at the end of the day, THABO & TYRUS would be starting in that line-up


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

step said:


> Only if that filler is Rudy Gay or their pick, and I'm not even so sure then.


*click*


----------



## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

L.O.B said:


> That rotation would cause the 2 remaining hairs on Skiles' head to fall out and I believe mine would fall out shortly after. Thabo and Thomas are still way too young to depend on for alot of minutes. Both rookies make way too many mistakes.


I think Thabo is a fast learner and would adjust quickly. As long as he avoids being the worst shooter in the league and makes open shots occasionally, he'll be fine. Duhon would still be starting if he could make open shots occasionally. 

I wouldn't start Thomas... I would start Khryapa or Nocioni at SF. Khryapa is actually a very solid defender; Viktor would sometimes defend Kobe when he played in Portland. I thought he looked decent enough in preseason play. 

Since we aren't trading the pick, we can use that to fill in any gap that becomes apparent over the season. We would also have the MLE. 

But, yeah, this would be a hugely unpopular trade.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

The ROY said:


> .Would anyone here do Hinrich,Deng & Brown for Gasol + filler?


Not even if you threw in a backrub from Ayn Rand.


----------



## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Not even if you threw in a backrub from Ayn Rand.


What exactly distresses you about it? Do you think it's too much for one player? Or does the post-trade lineup appear very imbalanced?


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Yes, I think that as much as we need a scoring center, giving up our starting point guard and starting small forward, plus a valuable expiring contract is too much for Pau Gasol (as much as I really do want to see him here).


----------



## L.O.B (Jun 13, 2002)

Rawse said:


> *click*



Hey Rawse,

While we got you here cocking your pistol, where do you see Gay playing in the long run? I see Rudy as a Deng type player but can't say I've watched all that many Grizz games this season. This is part of the reason I don't see Luol being the player West covets on the Bulls roster.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

L.O.B said:


> Hey Rawse,
> 
> While we got you here cocking your pistol, where do you see Gay playing in the long run? I see Rudy as a Deng type player but can't say I've watched all that many Grizz games this season. This is part of the reason I don't see Luol being the player West covets on the Bulls roster.


The Gay/Deng playing time and development dilemna is a good point.


----------



## SoCalfan21 (Jul 19, 2004)

The ROY said:


> Hoopsworld.com
> 
> Would anyone here do Hinrich,Deng & Brown for Gasol + filler?
> 
> ...


Uhh no.....Deng& Hinrich>>>>>Gordon...i dont understand why you guys wouldnt wanna do that trade that was offered...Gasol is an ALL-STAR player healthy...if the Bulls wanna win now they pull of this trade


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

L.O.B said:


> Hey Rawse,
> 
> While we got you here cocking your pistol, where do you see Gay playing in the long run? I see Rudy as a Deng type player but can't say I've watched all that many Grizz games this season. This is part of the reason I don't see Luol being the player West covets on the Bulls roster.


Position-wise? I see him as a SF primarily. In small lineups, he can play PF, and his handle is adequate enough to play SG. When he was starting, I thought he was playing out-of-position. His jump shot right now isn't his strength - he's best when he's attacking the basket and trying to finish around the hoop.

To his credit though, his handle and shot are better now than they were at the beginning of the year.

I'd think Josh Smith at this point in terms of his offensive versatility. Rudy's more creative on offense and he doesn't rely *as much* on his tremendous athleticism as Smith seems to do in the Hawks games I've seen this year. His jump shooting right now is better than Smith's but still very inconsistent and not so good that you'd want him doing it as much as he does. Defensively though, Smith is in another galaxy at this point.

As far as pairing him with Deng goes, I think the Grizz, should they get Deng, would continue to play Rudy at SG and try to develop him at that position. With Mike Miller solidifying himself this season, Gay would most likely come off the bench and see minutes at the 2/3/4. That's just my guess though.


----------



## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I don't want to sound like an idiot, but Mods, could we somehow clear up the threads for Gasol. Either merge them all, or designate separate ones for Newspaper Clips, Leaked Sources, 'My Trade Proposal', etc. 

Is there anyway we can make a trade keeping Deng and Gordon? If I had to pick one, I still pick Deng to leave, but a line up of Wallace, Gasol, Deng, and Gordon starting would be insane. It would never be accepted by West, but I'd do this:

Noce, PJ, Thabo (or Duhon, West's call), NYK, and a future 1st rounder ('09)

I doubt they'd want Noce, I'd do Kirk and PJ like McGraw's article said it can be done, but I don't know if they would want him. He's the kind of player that has plateaued.


----------



## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Also, I was unable to see the game, but what did Pax say about Gasol in his interview with Sager?


----------



## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

said:


> G Gordon / Duhon
> G Sefolosha
> F Thomas / Khyrapa
> F Gasol / Nocioni
> ...


this is the talk we get into when we get trade happy. there's a reason no one will be able to recall a team with the Bulls current playoff seed tearing up their roster completely.

the more starters we ship out, the more we have to reconstruct in 40 games.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

SoCalfan21 said:


> Uhh no.....Deng& Hinrich>>>>>Gordon...i dont understand why you guys wouldnt wanna do that trade that was offered...Gasol is an ALL-STAR player healthy...if the Bulls wanna win now they pull of this trade


First of all, the Bulls NEVER offered Gordon. That was an internet rumor.

Of course those two together are better than Gordon alone, tell me something I don't know.

You don't move Gordon if you add a player like Gasol, it's not difficult to understand.


----------



## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I wish West was dumb enough to take Hinrich, and let us keep Deng and Gordon (instead of taking one of them, prolly Deng according to the leaks).


----------



## @[email protected] (Jan 19, 2005)

Gasol is soft like ***** and is a quitter!


----------



## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

> Leaguewide, the Grizzlies continue to ask a high price for Pau Gasol. In the Bulls' case, that means two players from their young core, as well as salary-cap relief in the form of P.J. Brown's expiring $8 million contract and possibly a draft pick.
> 
> General manager John Paxson has stated publicly he won't mortgage the organization's future for Gasol. Translated, that means he refuses to deal two young assets. But for now, the Bulls' philosophy goes beyond that—to refusing to include Hinrich, Luol Deng or Ben Gordon in any of the various parameters already discussed.
> 
> ...


Trib


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

TripleDouble said:


> Trib


Well, that's great news if Pax won't part with ANY of the big 3. It'd be nice if he'd hold onto TT and the pick as well. Overall though, as much as I like TT and think the pick could get us a stud, Gasol is a proven commodity and what we need. If we could give up Du, the pick and TT, or the pick, Du and Nocioni for Gasol you'd have to do it. From the sounds of things, unless one side changes drastically, no deal will get done, and that's what I'd prefer over giving up much to get him.


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## the-asdf-man (Jun 29, 2006)

PJ brown, sweets, khryapa for gasol


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## SoCalfan21 (Jul 19, 2004)

The ROY said:


> First of all, the Bulls NEVER offered Gordon. That was an internet rumor.
> 
> Of course those two together are better than Gordon alone, tell me something I don't know.
> 
> You don't move Gordon if you add a player like Gasol, it's not difficult to understand.


An internet rumor that hit the radio im guessing then correct?..(NBA radio)


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> I'm getting way ahead of myself, but if by chance we trade Gordon instead of Deng and somehow hold on to the NY pick next year, and the pick settles in the late lottery, let's look at Marco Belinelli. That dude can flat out shoot, and he's got some atleticism too.
> 
> He's a serious marksman.


I've got to give myself a pat on the back here. I'm watching Belinelli in the summer league game tonight vs. Seattle. It's fun to watch him and Durant just gun and gun. Marco has missed some shots tonight, but he looks incredible. I read that his shot left him a bit this year in European play, but he has beautiful form, and his driving, quickness, body control, and size are really good too. This guy could score 18-19 points a game this year and could be a star player for many years.

We may regret not looking into him more carefully.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

I was very high on him as well.



Mebarak said:


> I really can't see Phoenix keeping him. His contract is huge, and he keeps becoming a nonfactor in playoff games screwing them over.
> 
> Now the problem with this for us, is that Nocioni will be BYC.
> 
> ...


http://www.basketballforum.com/chicago-bulls/357516-shawn-marion.html#post4728402

On who will be the steals of the draft:



Mebarak said:


> Joakim Noah- he will go late lotto, but he should go higher.
> 
> Thaddeus Young- think he might go #10 to Kings, but still, think he will be good.
> 
> ...


http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-...you-think-potential-steals-2.html#post4796804


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## JeremyB0001 (Nov 17, 2003)

Bellinelli might be a very good NBA player but the hype is getting a little out of control. This is the summer league; Tskitishvili did win a summer league MVP once upon a time (yeah, I stole that from Chad Ford). He struggled pretty badly last season in Europe so I guess we just need to see how huge of an aberration that was.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

I'm pretty sure Lonny Baxter won the MVP of the summer league, too.

Where is he?


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

DaBullz said:


> I'm pretty sure Lonny Baxter won the MVP of the summer league, too.
> 
> Where is he?


He was actually just arrested on gun charges...for the third time.

No joke.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

The Truth said:


> He was actually just arrested on gun charges...for the third time.
> 
> No joke.


He was born to play for the washington bullets.
:biggrin:


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