# Cavs in serious talk for Suns Stoudemire



## NOFX22 (Sep 28, 2006)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4910377


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

PART TWO: THE RETURN!!!!

If the Cavs got Amare, they'd be unstoppable. Hickson and AV get open so often already, I can't imagine what Amare would do.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

Oh god no.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

what salaries get it done?


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Not happening.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Organized Chaos said:


> Not happening.


Let me guess... like the Bulls, they have "nothing to offer"?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Dornado said:


> what salaries get it done?


Z, Hickson, West. Or Z, Hickson, Szerbiak are probably the principles. 

Though I also heard this may be a three team deal with Philly, with Igdoula going to the Suns, and JRich being part of the deal.

Z, Hickson, Gibson works too. The two main guys leaving the Cavs would be Z and probably Hickson I think. Supposedly the Suns are really high on Hickson, who is cheap and only 21 and put up big numbers against some of the bigger teams in the league.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Dornado said:


> Let me guess... like the Bulls, they have "nothing to offer"?


Nothing gets by you. Not sure why that bothers you so much to have to reply. Regardless, Kerr cannot pull off another trade with them in under a yr basically dumping him for trash. 3 way with them and another team is a different story though.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Organized Chaos said:


> Nothing gets by you. Not sure why that bothers you so much to have to reply. Regardless, Kerr cannot pull off another trade with them in under a yr basically dumping him for trash. 3 way with them and another team is a different story though.


I mostly wanted you to elaborate as to why it wasn't happening, since it was such a definitive statement.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

Shaq and Amare again? It didn't work in Phx why would it work now? Because of Lebron? Really!?


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## Punk (Feb 4, 2010)

Moves like these will only make him come to New York even more. Really? Do you really need Amare? I honestly think these GMs are not to bright.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Dee-Zy said:


> Shaq and Amare again? It didn't work in Phx why would it work now? Because of Lebron? Really!?


PHX did have a 46-36 record with Shaq on board even with Amar'e getting injured last February due to his retina. If the Cavs got him I think they'd be the best overall team in the league. James, Shaq, and Amar'e? Thats incredible...hell I can't wait to try that lineup on a ****ing video game, NBA 2k10 - thats going to be crazy ****!


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## carlos710 (Jun 13, 2002)

If this happens I will have to put some people here on suicidal watch since it may deeply affect them


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Unless they can get him for Z and nothing else it doesn't make sense. Not unless you can get him to agree to an extension immediately. The game is to keep Lebron in Cleveland. This doesn't do that if you end up with less talent around him at the end of the day. Personally everything I've seen from Amare this year would tend to make me think it'd be a huge mistake to offer him a max deal


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Letting go of Hickson for a guy who is gone next year, not sure about that.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

I can see the long-term argument but I'm more on the side where Cleveland needs to do everything they can NOW to make Lebron stay. Thats why they made a huge acquisition in Shaq.

I bet the chances of Lebron staying in Cleveland increases greatly if they win a championship this year. They don't necessarily have to give Amare' a long term deal and it'd be better if they wait until the summer before they do. That way if they don't win a championship or worse, Lebron leaves, the Cavs have enough space to sign up other talents especially if you also keep in mind Shaq's expiring deal.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I just don't think Amare has the impact that many of you seem to. He's a better player, but he's selfish and he sulks when he should be playing hard. He's just too mercurial for me to think it wise to bet my whole stack on him. Frankly JJ Hickson is giving them a lot of the same stuff that Amare would give them, and he's improving. Ilgauskas is still a good roleplayer and West is a pretty good guard. Not one chance in hell I'd give those three guys for Amare, he's just not been that good for awhile. If it's a rental I'd give you a salary dump.

Miami is making a better offer than Cleveland can, because this year doesn't mean jack to Riley. Their entire game is to get Amare so they can try to keep Wade. If you're Cleveland you've got a damned good team right now and you shouldn't do anything that isn't a no brainer about making you better.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Diable said:


> I just don't think Amare has the impact that many of you seem to. He's a better player, but he's selfish and he sulks when he should be playing hard. He's just too mercurial for me to think it wise to bet my whole stack on him. Frankly JJ Hickson is giving them a lot of the same stuff that Amare would give them, and he's improving. Ilgauskas is still a good roleplayer and West is a pretty good guard. Not one chance in hell I'd give those three guys for Amare, he's just not been that good for awhile. If it's a rental I'd give you a salary dump.
> 
> Miami is making a better offer than Cleveland can, because this year doesn't mean jack to Riley. Their entire game is to get Amare so they can try to keep Wade. If you're Cleveland you've got a damned good team right now and you shouldn't do anything that isn't a no brainer about making you better.


I think Amare would just be more consistent than JJ. He's kind of where we'd like to see JJ in another two years(he's still only 21).

I wonder if Phoenix prefers Hickson and West to Beasley and JO? I could kind of see why they might be more attractive. Hickson doesn't have the baggage that Beasley does, and he can score without any plays run for him like Marion used to do, and West is better than anyone not named Wade on the Heat roster. Nash/West/Barbosa is actually a pretty nice backcourt rotation, no? West would be the perfect guard to pair with Barbosa for the future.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Diable said:


> I just don't think Amare has the impact that many of you seem to. He's a better player, but he's selfish and he sulks when he should be playing hard. He's just too mercurial for me to think it wise to bet my whole stack on him. Frankly JJ Hickson is giving them a lot of the same stuff that Amare would give them, and he's improving. Ilgauskas is still a good roleplayer and West is a pretty good guard. Not one chance in hell I'd give those three guys for Amare, he's just not been that good for awhile.


I agree that Amar'e has had a slump this season especially when Phoenix was in a losing streak after starting out red-hot. However I think he can make a much bigger impact than both Hickson and an old Z; I'd jump at this chance ASAP especially if I want to keep James by winning a championship this year. I would hold off on giving Amar'e a new contract until after the season's over though.

He also seems pretty motivated and red hot recently: Phoenix has won four of their last five including road wins over Houston, NOH, and Denver and Amare's averaging *27 points (.57% FG) and 11.6 rebounds* during this period. He'd be the best secondary option the Cavs had seen in years and I think his motivation would be at a career high if he finds himself on the no.1 team in the league with Lebron feeding him the ball. He already has chemistry with Shaq which is another advantage.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

No way this happens. I refuse to believe that there is a GM out there stupid enough to kiss away the next 8 championships to Cleveland by trading Amare to Cleveland.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

The one thing Amare has ALWAYS hung his hat on since he was a rookie and put up 38/13 on KG in Minnesota is that he comes up big when he's challenged. And I can't see anything the Cavs need more than that, a guy other than Lebron who would be reliable when it gets to the nitty gritty.

Really, people think the Cavs losing guys like Delonte West and Big Z (no offense to either, great role players) are going to have an impact on Cleveland winning it? The Cavs have those kind of players in spades, what they need is a LEGIT #2 to their #1. Amare isn't what he was with so many injuries, but I think if you're Cleveland you have to take a chance, cause Hickson has talent.. but he's still just JJ Hickson.

Amare has become a reliable 1 on 1 defender over the past couple years outside of some fouling issues, his problem is major lapses as a team defender.. but that becomes a lot less visible when instead of having to try to cover up for guys like Nash, Richardson (despite any stats he's been horrible in Phoenix), and Channing Frye you are surrounding by a good, if not great, defensive team...

There would be a revolt in Arizona though, there are much better offers to be had unless Cleveland gets a 3rd team involved..


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Please don't happen.


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## Vuchato (Jan 14, 2006)

that would be like the worst thing ever


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

i can't believe people are actually debating this. Amare with Lebron? Really? That is a deadly combo. What killed the cavs last year was that you could double lebron and nobody would punish you. Amare would change that drastically. The cavs need to do something RIGHT NOW to keep lebron, this is it. Lebron is the perfect player to play with, Amare will thrive with Lebron.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Don't get Cleveland at all. You want a stretch 4 and you got the best one in the league on your team: LeBron. Go get a SG/SF so you can play Bron at PF.

Supposedly they can get Maggette from Golden State. Get them to throw in Morrow and you are good. Plus you don't get rid of one of the only long term assets you have in Hinkson.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Oh and getting Amare is useless. The Lakers will abuse him repeatedly with their bigs and he just doesn't have the explosion left to really make them long dudes pay.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> Oh and getting Amare is useless. The Lakers will abuse him repeatedly with their bigs and he just doesn't have the explosion left to really make them long dudes pay.




They have to guard him though, which means single coverage on Lebron and Shaq.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> Don't get Cleveland at all. You want a stretch 4 and you got the best one in the league on your team: LeBron. Go get a SG/SF so you can play Bron at PF.
> 
> Supposedly they can get Maggette from Golden State. Get them to throw in Morrow and you are good. Plus you don't get rid of one of the only long term assets you have in Hinkson.


You would rather want to play Lebron at the 4 and Maggette at the 3 than Lebron at the 3 and Amare at the 4?


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

I have to question whether some of you have watched Amare (besides against your fav teams) last 2-3 couple months after rounding into shape from the eye injury based on some of these comments. Amare's athleticism is not the same, but he can still _get up there _ with the best and he's developed a very good jumper for yrs now. Believe it or not, he's a better player post microfracture. He doesn't rely on that athleticism. He avgs 21pts on 14 shots and if he got the shot attempts he did when he was younger, he'd score as much or more as he did then and 07-08 just recently. He'd also get to the line more. 

Oh, and all this selfish/attitude stuff gets way overblown. You're just buying into ESPN. 

As for this deal. It's more serious than I previously thought but Miami's also talking to them.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

croco said:


> You would rather want to play Lebron at the 4 and Maggette at the 3 than Lebron at the 3 and Amare at the 4?


Yes. I would rather keep Hickson.

I just don't see where Amare is going to be a team upgrade. They might be a little better but he doesn't make them the team to beat. I have already seen what good teams do to a Shaq/Amare frontline. Plus I don't trust Amare's health.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

MemphisX said:


> Yes. I would rather keep Hickson.
> 
> I just don't see where Amare is going to be a team upgrade. They might be a little better but he doesn't make them the team to beat. I have already seen what good teams do to a Shaq/Amare frontline. Plus I don't trust Amare's health.


I agree with the Shaq part, but you also have to consider that Shaq might not be back next season and it should be rather easy to find someone who compliments the froncourt better than Shaq will be able to if this deal goes through. 

While Amare might not be as explosive and dominant as he once was, he will still easily be the best basketball player Lebron has ever teamed up with in Cleveland. He is a great finisher and he is also able to hit midrange jumpshots. The Cavs have been trying to surround Lebron with shooters who are all limited in some way, trying to make it work without adding a star. This is a talent infusion they need, I don't see you how could not be excited about this if you are Cleveland.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I think the Amare not working with Shaq thing is overblown. Both of them put up good numbers last season together. Numbers that if they put up this season would be great for the Cavs. You have to think about more how they both fit in with what the Cavs do.

Right now it's Varejao and Hickson cutting off the ball and getting open shots and dunks, imagine if that was Amare? Lebron's already averaging around 8/9 assists per game. You put Amare on there who can run the pick and pop AND the pick and roll. It's like combining all the things that work about Hickson and Z into one player, AND you get Z back.

If Hickson's game fits next to Shaq, I don't know why Amare's wouldn't. Hickson didn't even attempt a jump shot outside of 7 feet for like 3 months. Can Amare make wide open dunks and shots at the elbow? If he can then he's going to score a billion points.

Plus defensively it's not like HIckson knows what he's doing on that end either. If Mike Brown can make Drew Gooden okay defensively, he can make Amare great.

If the Cavs get Amare, the only thing in their way from the next 5 championships is the lockout.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

RealGM said:


> The Cavaliers and Suns are getting close to a trade that would send All-Star forward Amare Stoudemire to Cleveland, sources told ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard.
> 
> Cleveland would send Zydrunas Ilgauskas and forward J.J. Hickson to Phoenix for Stoudemire.


Oh my god no.


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## carlos710 (Jun 13, 2002)

briaN37 said:


> Oh my god no.


Once again : Why not ?

why Howard, Kobe, Pierce needs 3-4 all stars next to them and Lebron is not allowed to have one ?


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

If your the Cavs, you have to take the chance. Amare is still a great complimentary player, and even if Lebron left, they'd only be on the hook for one year, and there are going to be some teams with enough cap space to eat some of the contract. And if Amare leaves, then they're not much worse off than they were to begin with.

Obviously Hickson is a sticking point, as he's been really good for them. But in the end, he's just not a player that you hold out on Amare for.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

carlos710 said:


> Once again : Why not ?
> 
> why Howard, Kobe, Pierce needs 3-4 all stars next to them and Lebron is not allowed to have one ?


He's a Celts fan.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

Also, the Amare/Shaq thing is overblown. First of all, they played really well together offensively, especially Amare, during their first season. To be fair, that was with a much faster offense, but in Porter's offense, the main problem was that his offense didn't take advantage of Nash's passing talents. That put everybody else in different roles than what they needed to be. Also, they were running a lot of their offense through Shaq, putting him and Amare on almost equal priority.

This won't be a problem in Cleveland, which won't over-prioritize Shaq, and who won't lose focus on Lebron's talents. Amare's always been best playing off other people, and he'll be able to do that with both Lebron and Cleveland's shooter-heavy backcourt.

Also, Amare is a very good mid-range shooter, which means that teams are going to have a very hard time effectively guarding Lebron. You have to double him with another big, and the most mobile team big man would always be guarding Amare.

Defensively, Amare won't be any more of a problem in Cleveland than Hickson is. He's never been on a defensive team before, nor with another player so clearly better than him. Players like Amare typically respond pretty well to that. Besides, Varejao has become such a great defender that he could start if it's a real problem.

It's not perfect, but it'll definitely make them better and less predictable offensively, which has been their main problem.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

Weird. I'm actually really excited about this. Cleveland's never been much fun to watch, even with Lebron, because their offense is so ugly. Maybe this changes that.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Plus once Shaq retires you can play Lebron/Amare/Varejao as your frontcourt, and be much more of a run and gun team.

With Amare they'd have like 9 really good guys all under 28. They could be a dynasty.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

ESPN is reporting as almost a done deal. Btw, lmao at the idea of keeping HICKSON instead. They are getting a great player for virtually nothing. What a joke that some people are saying that this would be a bad deal for Cleveland.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Some rumors are going around that Phoenix might buy out the rest of Z's deal which allows the Cavs to resign Big Z. If true that'd give them so much depth and size that its scary.


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## carlos710 (Jun 13, 2002)

Let's assume it is Amare for Hickson, Z, and 2 first rounders.

Still it would be like 100x more one-sided than the gasol trade to the lakers


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

Hibachi! said:


> ESPN is reporting as almost a done deal. Btw, lmao at the idea of keeping HICKSON instead. They are getting a great player for virtually nothing. What a joke that some people are saying that this would be a bad deal for Cleveland.


That's another aspect of this deal. People went crazy over the Gasol deal. Now, he's better than Amare, but I have to think this will have a similar effect for cleveland. And Memphis now has Marc Gasol, Zach Randolf, Arthur and another pick coming up. There aren't even any reports of Cleveland giving up even one pick.


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## Arclite (Nov 2, 2002)

The problem with Shaq and Amare in Phoenix was that you had two of the absolute most exploitable pick and roll defenders on the same team (Nash, Shaq) and you surrounded them with OTHER poor defensive players in the same lineup (J-Rich, Stoudemire). It was a recipe for complete disaster on that end. The Spurs pick and rolled Nash/Shaq to death to the tune of Tony Parker averaging over 30 points a game for the series..


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Have also heard rumors on the Cavs board that we might be taking JRich off their hands with Wally Szerbiak in a sign and trade. That would probably be what puts the deal over the top for Phoenix(and probably where it gets too rich for Miami's blood, since it would kill their ability to sign another star to go with Wade and Amare).

Wouldn't be bad for the Cavs. JRich and Parker would be a good 2 guard rotation, with JRich probably coming off the bench for scoring with the second unit. I would also assume JRich coming in means Gibson or Delonte is going out. Probably Delonte since he's basically an expiring).


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

carlos710 said:


> Let's assume it is Amare for Hickson, Z, and 2 first rounders.
> 
> Still it would be like 100x more one-sided than the gasol trade to the lakers


It'd be okay for the Suns if Hickson continues to develop.


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## playablue (Dec 30, 2006)

It still would seriously be one sided and I do not beleive JJ hickson as the fortitude to get that much better.


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

How is Cleveland not even giving up a pick? If this trade goes through as is (Z + Hickson), it's absolute robbery on Cleveland's part.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

carlos710 said:


> Once again : Why not ?
> 
> why Howard, Kobe, Pierce needs 3-4 all stars next to them and Lebron is not allowed to have one ?


What are you talking about? I'm simply don't like Lebron and don't want him to succeed. Go bother someone else.


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## Kidd (Jul 2, 2009)

Sliccat said:


> He's a Celts fan.


I'm actually a Nets fan.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Floods said:


> How is Cleveland not even giving up a pick? If this trade goes through as is (Z + Hickson), it's absolute robbery on Cleveland's part.


Keep in mind this could only be a half-year rental for Amare and who knows how Amare will fit with LeBron


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## Floods (Oct 25, 2005)

ATLien said:


> Keep in mind this could only be a half-year rental for Amare and who knows how Amare will fit with LeBron


That's not Phoenix's problem though. Is J.J. Hickson going to be as good as Amare, or even close? If not, is Amare for straight-up salary relief and a PF with a moderate ceiling really a wise deal for the Suns? Something else has to be coming their way, otherwise they are getting cleaned out. If the deal happens as currently constructed and Hickson doesn't pan out, than Phoenix will have nothing to show for this deal, which can really **** a franchise.

From Cleveland's perspective, if this does end up a half-year rental, it's probably because Amare isn't working out there anyway, for whatever reason. If this does work out, and I'd say it's a 5% chance at most that this ends badly, then the extra pick given up will be well worth it.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Floods said:


> That's not Phoenix's problem though. Is J.J. Hickson going to be as good as Amare, or even close? If not, is Amare for straight-up salary relief and a PF with a moderate ceiling really a wise deal for the Suns? Something else has to be coming their way, otherwise they are getting cleaned out. If the deal happens as currently constructed and Hickson doesn't pan out, than Phoenix will have nothing to show for this deal, which can really **** a franchise.
> 
> From Cleveland's perspective, if this does end up a half-year rental, it's probably because Amare isn't working out there anyway, for whatever reason. If this does work out, and I'd say it's a 5% chance at most that this ends badly, then the extra pick given up will be well worth it.


I just think Phoenix is limited here in the number of offers and the quality of offers they are hearing for Amare, because he's an expiring


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## Aurelino (Jul 25, 2003)

futuristxen said:


> It'd be okay for the Suns if Hickson continues to develop.


Yea, Hickson is the second coming of Chuck Barkley!


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

OK, if Cleveland also takes back JRich, then defense will be a problem.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Cleveland will be NBA Champions this year if any form of this trade goes down, and it is foolish to believe otherwise. They will be adding a 21 PPG 61 TS% big man for JJ Hickson, and they will have Big Z back in a month. If Miami is offering Beasley, Steve Kerr must be all kinds of retarded to pass on that deal for this one.

If this trade does go through, the Bulls need to trade Deng and Hinrich so they can have enough cap space for two max free agents, and tell Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh to join forces with Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah, because that's the only way they will ever win a championship as long as Lebron is playing with Amare, and even that team would probably come up short against Lebron/Amare.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

I don't know if Amare likes Shaq but he is capable of playing very well with Shaq. Amare was putting up insane numbers until Porter screwed up the offense by my it focused on Shaq instead of Amare.

Cavs with Amare is just insane, hard to imagine any team in the East standing up to them now.

The only way to beat the Cavs for the Eastern teams is pretty much to go pick and roll every play, in which case they would have a solid chance of winning. Magic and hot shooting Celtics could be dangerous but that's about it.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

BG7 said:


> Cleveland will be NBA Champions this year if any form of this trade goes down, and it is foolish to believe otherwise. They will be adding a 21 PPG 61 TS% big man for JJ Hickson, and they will have Big Z back in a month. If Miami is offering Beasley, Steve Kerr must be all kinds of retarded to pass on that deal for this one.
> 
> If this trade does go through, the Bulls need to trade Deng and Hinrich so they can have enough cap space for two max free agents, and tell Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh to join forces with Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah, because that's the only way they will ever win a championship as long as Lebron is playing with Amare, and even that team would probably come up short against Lebron/Amare.


Agreed, but Kerr is retarded. He's just an awful GM. Which means Amare will probably go to the Cavs.


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## roux (Jun 20, 2006)

Maybe Phoenix just knows that Amare wont be back next year, and Hickson and cap relief is better than nothing


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## Punk (Feb 4, 2010)

carlos710 said:


> Let's assume it is Amare for Hickson, Z, and 2 first rounders.
> 
> Still it would be like 100x more one-sided than the gasol trade to the lakers


Assume no more.



> The Cavaliers and Suns are getting close to a trade that would send All-Star forward Amare Stoudemire to Cleveland, sources told ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard.
> 
> Cleveland would send Zydrunas Ilgauskas and forward J.J. Hickson to Phoenix for Stoudemire.
> 
> ...


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

roux2dope said:


> Maybe Phoenix just knows that Amare wont be back next year, and Hickson and cap relief is better than nothing


But if that's the case, they might be screwing up their playoff money to let him go that easily.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Sliccat said:


> OK, if Cleveland also takes back JRich, then defense will be a problem.


Mike Brown got Mo Williams, Wally Szerbiak, Drew Gooden, and Shaq to play really good defense for his team. I think the man is a defensive miracle worker. Which is good because he doesn't know a thing about offense.

I'm not worried about the Cavs defense.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Beasley is not a better player than JJ Hickson


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Mike Brown got Mo Williams, Wally Szerbiak, Drew Gooden, and Shaq to play really good defense for his team. I think the man is a defensive miracle worker. Which is good because he doesn't know a thing about offense.
> 
> I'm not worried about the Cavs defense.


But not in the same starting line-up. Miracles are nice, but some tasks are just impossible.


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## carlos710 (Jun 13, 2002)

> The Cavaliers and Suns are getting close to a trade that would send All-Star forward Amare Stoudemire to Cleveland, sources told ESPN The Magazine's Chris Broussard.
> 
> Cleveland would send Zydrunas Ilgauskas and forward J.J. Hickson to Phoenix for Stoudemire.
> 
> ...





Punk said:


> Assume no more.


I refuse to believe that this is everything about the deal. There has to be more pieces involved, either draft picks from cleveland, the cavs taking j-rich contract, a 3rd team involved... I don't know but there has to be something else.

I just don't believe that there isn't a better proposal than an scrub like hickson and cap relief for amare.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Sliccat said:


> But not in the same starting line-up. Miracles are nice, but some tasks are just impossible.


I doubt he would start. He'd be better coming off the bench for some scoring punch with the second unit IMO. Plus Parker's a better shooter so you need his floor spacing with Shaq, Amare, and Lebron out there.

Windhorst was just on the radio, says the deal is likely. Won't get announced today though because of the all-star game. Should be an announcement early tomorrow or maaaybe tuesday at the latest.

Exciting  

Lebron's been talking to Amare all weekend apparently as well.


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

I secretly want this to happen because I want to see LeBron win a championship.


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

The Suns are so stupid. They better be getting more than ****ing Big Fail and JJ Hickson. And on top of that, they might as well start throwing Nash around to trade him, cause now this team won't even be close to a decent playoff team.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> I doubt he would start. He'd be better coming off the bench for some scoring punch with the second unit IMO. Plus Parker's a better shooter so you need his floor spacing with Shaq, Amare, and Lebron out there.
> 
> Windhorst was just on the radio, says the deal is likely. Won't get announced today though because of the all-star game. Should be an announcement early tomorrow or maaaybe tuesday at the latest.
> 
> ...


Definitely exciting. I didn't believe the Cavs could beat the Lakers. This gives them a solid chance.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

Seuss said:


> The Suns are so stupid. They better be getting more than ****ing Big Fail and JJ Hickson. And on top of that, they might as well start throwing Nash around to trade him, cause now this team won't even be close to a decent playoff team.


They'd be paying $25 million for Ilgauskus and Ben Wallace. :laugh:


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

Sliccat said:


> They'd be paying $25 million for Ilgauskus and Ben Wallace. :laugh:



I was referring to Z as Big Fail. Eh, I'm just upset with this mismanagement by this Suns franchise. Just one thing after another.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

To be fair the Suns weren't really going anywhere with Amare anyways.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

If you're Boston or Orlando how do you counter this kind of trade?


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## Spaceman Spiff (Aug 2, 2006)

So what's to become of Steve Nash!? Clearly they're mailing it in for the season and rebuilding if they give away Amare for a bag of meatballs.

At first I was against it but now I'm all for it since it makes the Suns worse and gives the Rockets a better chance of a playoff spot.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4913305



> The Suns would likely waive Ilgauskas, a move that would allow him to be re-signed by Cleveland after 30 days.


I see no mention of draft picks. So in the end it's gonna be Hickson for Amare straight up. Unless Hickson morphs into the 2nd coming of Charles Barkley, then this would make Gasol/Kwame look like a Melo/Durant swap.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Hickson is better than Kwame. Probably not better than Marc Gasol though 

According to this the main competition for the Cavs is the Sixers and Igdoula. But the Sixers don't want to trade for Amare because if he doesn't opt out they don't save any money, and he has said he may not opt out:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4913834

Also points out that the Suns rate Hickson higher than Beasley, so unless there's a third team, Miami has nothing that the Suns want.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

Not so fast...

*Sources: Teams sweeten Amare offers*

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4913834


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

I'm not buying they rate Hickson over Beasley (which would be so ****ing stupid). If they do this, it's all financial and nothing else (and I'm done as a fan). Miami's deal would be so much better.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> If you're Boston or Orlando how do you counter this kind of trade?


Boston might not, they're evaluating Garnett's knee, if they're not confident he can reach 90% by the postseason they may just punt. The owners were notorious for pinching pennies until the 24 win season when Boston fans stopped buying tickets, they've become far more cost-conscious since winning the title (and the fans returned paying even higher prices).


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Organized Chaos said:


> I'm not buying they rate Hickson over Beasley (which would be so ****ing stupid). If they do this, it's all financial and nothing else (and I'm done as a fan).


Phoenix likes to get good character guys, and Beasley probably rates as a bit of a problem in that area. Beasley's uptick in talent may not be enough to overcome the attitude baggage he brings.

I think the main threat to the Cavs getting Amare is probably the Sixers. If the Sixers agree to take JRich, and toss in Speights with Igdoula, the Suns probably make that trade.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Really I don't see the point in trading Amare anyway. If you're doing this as a fiancial move then when Amare leaves you get your cap relief. If you do this and all your fans see that you're bailing on the season you're going to lose money on that, because without Amare the Suns are pretty much a bottom feeder in the West. If you trade Amare you may as well trade Nash too. You don't need him to help you suck until he's too old for that. I really like Hickson, especially if you've got a good playmaker like Lebron to get him oppurtunities to just finish. Hickson isn't going to help that Suns team when the rest of those guys are already old. You may as well trade everyone.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

Diable said:


> Really I don't see the point in trading Amare anyway. If you're doing this as a fiancial move then when Amare leaves you get your cap relief. If you do this and all your fans see that you're bailing on the season you're going to lose money on that, because without Amare the Suns are pretty much a bottom feeder in the West. If you trade Amare you may as well trade Nash too. You don't need him to help you suck until he's too old for that. I really like Hickson, especially if you've got a good playmaker like Lebron to get him oppurtunities to just finish. Hickson isn't going to help that Suns team when the rest of those guys are already old. You may as well trade everyone.


They're mostly scare of him opting in.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Woj says Cavs are just posturing so as to get the Pacers and Wiz to lower their offers on Jamison and Murphy.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

HB said:


> Woj says Cavs are just posturing so as to get the Pacers and Wiz to lower their offers on Jamison and Murphy.


Cavs beat writer Windhorst says Amare is the top target, and those deals are fallbacks.


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

If they get rid of Amare, they might as well try and get Nash over to Toronto.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Seuss said:


> If they get rid of Amare, they might as well try and get Nash over to Toronto.


Well Nash DOES have a big contract, so we may have to send a few first rounders along with Grant Hill to make the trade for Turkulu more palatable to the Raps


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I don't know if Amare can truly spread out nh and offer his best production with Shaq on the team. If they did this, next year would be the year for them. I think this pretty much guarantees Lebron stays in Cleveland.

I don't understand why anyone would imagine this is a rental. Amare just wants max money, and the Cavs just want to pay a star max money to place next to Lebron. This would be the Cavs' dream come July and it could happen in the next couple days. They need to just take Richardson back and bite the bullet before the Suns say nevermind.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Aldridge mentioned on All star game nothing is imminent and they haven't decided whether to move him or not. 


New article though



> Here is what I’m hearing as of early Monday:
> 
> For the Suns, the Stoudemire-Hickson trade would be something of a last resort. The Suns have been hoping to land more than just Hickson and financial relief for Stoudemire.
> 
> ...


http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/13214/is-cleveland-big-enough-for-amare-and-shaq


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I expect him to be moved either way 'cause it's pretty clear at this point they just don't want to pay him.


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

Iggy and Sam coming to Phoenix wouldn't be bad at all.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Amare should go kiss Lebron's *** dead center if he goes to Cleveland and gets a MAX contract. I just do no see any circumstances under which I would give him that contract ever. He just does not deserve it IMO. Stoudamire has obviously seen himself as a MAX player all along, but Christ I just don't see how anyone else could based upon what he's done recently.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Amare Stoudemire is scoring 21 points a game on 61 TS%. That's worth big money right there. A few years ago, he led the league in TS% while scoring 25 points a game. That's pretty damn impressive to be the most efficient scorer in the league while scoring 25 points a game.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Where this trade will sucseed and the Gasol one failed is teams are aware Amare is on the market now... so hopefully that means the Suns will get close to fair value instead of shipping him out for spare parts.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

BG7 said:


> Amare Stoudemire is scoring 21 points a game on 61 TS%. That's worth big money right there. A few years ago, he led the league in TS% while scoring 25 points a game. That's pretty damn impressive to be the most efficient scorer in the league while scoring 25 points a game.


That's the thing that people aren't recognizing. Amare is sacrificing personal stats to make the TEAM better in a contract year no less. That is very impressive. Also, the Suns won't get a superstar or even an All Star back for him and especially won't get a PF of anywhere near his value. I say the Suns hold onto him, he sells tickets, sign him to a 4 year max extension (including next season) and move on. They won't get cap relief or talent because the nature of GMs is to spend all the money that they have available so the Suns will just dole out a couple of contracts to guys who aren't worth $6million/year but will get it because Kerr is panic signing.

The facts of the NBA are this: If you don't have a Kobe, KG, Duncan, Wade, James, Howard, Paul, or other superstar player on your team, you're not going to win the championship. Amare is an All Star, but not a superstar, but he's one of the closest players to that level, which makes his contract a difficult one to make.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Diable said:


> Amare should go kiss Lebron's *** dead center if he goes to Cleveland and gets a MAX contract. I just do no see any circumstances under which I would give him that contract ever. He just does not deserve it IMO. Stoudamire has obviously seen himself as a MAX player all along, but Christ I just don't see how anyone else could based upon what he's done recently.


Deserve has nothing to do with it.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Well better the Cavs give him that Max contract than the Nets. Should be interesting with the CBA coming up how the contract affects the Cavs, provided they get him.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Suns should unite the twins. they should trade Amare to NJ for Brook Lopez and contract filler.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

Hyperion said:


> Suns should unite the twins. they should trade Amare to NJ for Brook Lopez and contract filler.


No way in hell NJ does that. Actually, I'm not sure the Suns have ANY assets that could make NJ give up Lopez. Even if they threw in Nash, I don't know if NJ would bite.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Yeah thats an April fools type post, lol not happening.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Sounds like trade talks for Amare are dying down and it looks like Amare might be signing an extension with the Suns.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

HB said:


> Yeah thats an April fools type post, lol not happening.


It's the same thing as Amare for Hickson and Ilguaskas


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

Hyperion said:


> It's the same thing as Amare for Hickson and Ilguaskas


Brook Lopez is on the cusp of being a true franchise center. Hickson will surprise if he's a career starter.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Sliccat said:


> Brook Lopez is on the cusp of being a true franchise center. Hickson will surprise if he's a career starter.


no he won't.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Idunkonyou said:


> Sounds like trade talks for Amare are dying down and it looks like Amare might be signing an extension with the Suns.


I think that the Cavs deal is dying, not an Amare trade. I think the Suns will definitely trade Amare this time around. I think Amare will be traded to either the 76ers or Bulls, and I think there is no way in hell that he is traded to the Cavs. If Miami puts Beasley in the offer, than Amare is Miami's, but why in the hell would you trade Beasley, as that would make your team consist of Mario Chalmers/Dwyane Wade/Amare Stoudemire, while if you just hold onto Beasley and wait for free agency, your team could consist of Mario Chalmers/Dwyane Wade/Michael Beasley/Max 2010 Free Agent. I don't see them giving up Beasley in a trade.

I would venture to guess that Phoenix is looking for some type of "near star" level player if they are to trade Amare, who is locked into a lesser contract than Amare, and then a little cap relief, and a pick as well.

I would guess the two most likely scenarios would be something along the lines of:

Andre Iguodala and Jason Kapono for Amare Stoudemire

and

Luol Deng and Tyrus Thomas for Amare Stoudemire

These aren't rumored deals out there, but just some logically constructed trades based on some of the rumors out there. 

There is no benefit to trading Amare to Cleveland, and I'm sure Steve Kerr doesn't want to commit career suicide, because he will just be known as the guy who put the finishing touches on Cleveland's dynasty team....and JJ Hickson will be a scrub in Phoenix, he isn't going to be Marc Gasol part 2. 

I think above the two deals I posted above, Phoenix would want a good player on a rookie contract, who is a 2nd or 3rd year player going back, rather than Iggy or Deng, but I'm not sure there is going to be one of those available. I'm not even sure that they want a talented player like Iggy/Deng because of their long term contracts. But if they don't want long term contracts like that, then I think they will just keep Amare for the rest of the year, try to make one last push this year with this team for the championship, and then if they fail, let Amare walk, and start rebuilding. There's just no benefit for Phoenix in trading Amare to Cleveland at this point, so I just don't see that one happening.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I think Sliccat has summed it up nicely. Nets will rather lose with Brook than with Amare


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

BG7 said:


> There's just no benefit for Phoenix in trading Amare to Cleveland at this point, so I just don't see that one happening.


You mean besides saving 10 million dollars and luxury tax money? The Cavs offer the most savings and best deal(Miami says it isn't even offering Beasley).

Plus if Phoenix wants Igdoula, the only way to get him is through the Cavs in a three team, because Philly doesn't want Amare and the extra salary. The Cavs are huge frontrunners right now.

And I doubt the Bulls really have much to offer the bulls. Luol Deng has a terrible contract, and Tyrus Thomas is worse than JJ Hickson.

According to all of the sources I've seen if Amare is going to be traded it's either going to be Philly or Cleveland, and right now Cleveland is the leader because Philly doesn't want Amare(where would Amare play on the Sixers by the way? They have a glut of young forwards already in addition to Elton Brand).


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

I read that the Amare deal is just Kerr doing Ferry a solid by bringing down the price of Jamison.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Hyperion said:


> I read that the Amare deal is just Kerr doing Ferry a solid by bringing down the price of Jamison.


Some sources are projecting that, but the Cavs sources are saying this deal is apparently legit. I guess we'll find out in a few days. Broussard is saying we should have a yes or no on the deal by wednesday, and both he and Windhorst are sounding pretty confident that this is the deal. 

I also read that Miami is now pursuing Jamison. Though that doesn't make much sense.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Makes sense if they get to keep Beasley


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

HB said:


> Makes sense if they get to keep Beasley


Won't it screw up their summer plans? Are they that worried about Wade leaving this year?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

That's their summer plan right there. Jamison is their FA acquisition.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

HB said:


> That's their summer plan right there. Jamison is their FA acquisition.


_That_ would get Wade to leave.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

HB said:


> That's their summer plan right there. Jamison is their FA acquisition.


No way. Jamison is a nice role player, but he is no Lebron, Bosh, Amare, JJ


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## HEATLUNATIC (May 27, 2002)

myst said:


> No way. Jamison is a nice role player, but he is no Lebron, Bosh, Amare, JJ


This!

Lets not forget that Beasley is a much younger version of Jamison but with more upside.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

JJ is not better than Jamison and even if he was, there's not that big a difference. A lot of people will be disappointed that Bosh and Bron arent going anywhere. So its guys like Lee, JJ and Amare that everyone else will have to fight for.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

HB said:


> JJ is not better than Jamison and even if he was, there's not that big a difference. A lot of people will be disappointed that Bosh and Bron arent going anywhere. So its guys like Lee, JJ and Amare that everyone else will have to fight for.


JJ Hickson? He's not going to be a free agent.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Joe Johnson...lol come on now, even if Hickson was a free agent, he's not a high caliber FA.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Ohhh. I do think Joe Johnson is better value than Jamison. He's younger, no? And you can give him the ball at the end of games and have him win them for you. He's very underrated.


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## ATLien (Jun 18, 2002)

Are you kidding? Joe Johnson is overrated. He chokes at the end of games, and he'll be 35 or 36 by the time his next contract is over.


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## Seuss (Aug 19, 2005)

People are gonna be FIGHTING over Hickson. He is a future marquee player. He'll probably border on being better than LeBron, but not quite as good as Jordan.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

ATLien said:


> Are you kidding? Joe Johnson is overrated. He chokes at the end of games, and he'll be 35 or 36 by the time his next contract is over.


He's gonna be 29 this yr. He's not gonna get a 6-7 yr deal. He can't.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

He's not underrated as far as I am concerned. That guy's not worth the money he will be demanding.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Seuss said:


> People are gonna be FIGHTING over Hickson. He is a future marquee player. He'll probably border on being better than LeBron, but not quite as good as Jordan.


lol


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

Organized Chaos said:


> He's gonna be 29 this yr. He's not gonna get a 6-7 yr deal. He can't.


Actually, he could get 6 years by re-signing with the Hawks, I believe.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Yeah, I meant in the open market.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

It would be a terrible trade for the Suns as a basketball team, but not financially. Let's not forget that Phoenix has missed out on a lot of good players because they basically sold their picks away to save money. It wouldn't surprise me if they did the same thing here.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

I MUCH more prefer a deal with Miami. Clearly got the best offer with Beasley (yes, he was offered) whether Suns FO is high on him or not. And I don't care what is in it(Q-Rich) and no picks. They also might be hoping they throw a pick in there to sweeten it which is beyond me. Honestly, think he could be huge in this system. And if he's that bad, or doesn't work out, they can move in the summer easily. Too bad they're idiots.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Organized Chaos said:


> I MUCH more prefer a deal with Miami. Clearly got the best offer with Beasley (yes, he was offered) whether Suns FO is high on him or not. And I don't care what is in it(Q-Rich) and no picks. They also might be hoping they throw a pick in there to sweeten it which is beyond me. Honestly, think he could be huge in this system. And if he's that bad, or doesn't work out, they can move in the summer easily. Too bad they're idiots.


Because of Z's contract, and a few salary cap loopholes, the Cavs offer waaaaay more savings in their deal. Plus to make the salaries match, the Suns have to take on a ton of garbage from Miami with Beasley. And Miami's owner says they aren't offering Beasley, and multiple sources are saying that neither Miami or Philly WANT Beasley. 

I don't think Beasley is that valued a commodity. He's perceived to have attitude problems, and he makes more money than Hickson on top of that.

This is a Gasol type deal though. This is a straight theft. So I don't know if what Suns fans want really amount to much. Their owner has no money.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Apparently Washington is now offering Mike Miller with Jamison. Not a bad fallback for the Cavs if they can't get Amare


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Because of Z's contract, and a few salary cap loopholes, the Cavs offer waaaaay more savings in their deal. Plus to make the salaries match, the Suns have to take on a ton of garbage from Miami with Beasley. And Miami's owner says they aren't offering Beasley, and multiple sources are saying that neither Miami or Philly WANT Beasley.
> 
> I don't think Beasley is that valued a commodity. He's perceived to have attitude problems, and he makes more money than Hickson on top of that.
> 
> This is a Gasol type deal though. This is a straight theft. So I don't know if what Suns fans want really amount to much. Their owner has no money.


Q/Beasley for Amare works straight up. So it doesn't require garbage from them. And it's not like Cavs would be taking on Jrich like originally thought, so that defeats the point of that. 

Of course, Miami's owner is going to say he wasn't out there. Why wouldn't he? He's not gonna come out and say he was in case he didn't go anywhere. Every other source says he was too. Beasley's talent overweighs those perceived problems though. They're not that bad either and I think in this locker room and org could be good for him. Suns may not be high on Beasley but, you take the best talent though for Amare, not settling for Hickson basically. 

Ok, so if he's out of money, or doing it for savings, why are the Suns preferred deal is to get Iggy and Dalembert? That's not saving much.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Organized Chaos said:


> Q/Beasley for Amare works straight up. So it doesn't require garbage from them. And it's not like Cavs would be taking on Jrich like originally thought, so that defeats that the point of that.


I believe Z/Hickson/and a 1st saves the Suns more money. Z's contract is frontloaded so something like 75 percent of his salary this year is already paid. And the Cavs would be sending money along for his buyout on top of that. Windhorst has written about this somewhere, but it basically explains how the Cavs can offer the most cap relief.

But added to that, the Suns supposedly just plain don't want Beasley.

Are the Heat offering their first round pick this year as well?



> Ok, so if he's out of money, or doing it for savings, why are the Suns preferred deal is to to get Iggy and Dalembert? That's not saving much.


Iggy they see as a good deal. He is making what they want to pay Amare(who wants the Max), and they would have him locked up long term at that rate. Plus it would be an okay PR move since Iggy played college out there. Plus Philly is taking back Jason Richardson.

And they would be swapping Barbosa with Lou Williams as well. But Philly isn't interested because they don't want Amare in the first place.

The obvious trade is a three-way deal where the Cavs send their cap savings to Philly, they send Iggy to the Suns, and the Cavs get Amare. But the Sixers GM just sounds like he's up his own arsehole right now. 

Every major source right now is saying the Cavs are the frontrunners, the Heat have no shot, and the Sixers are the only real threat to the Cavs right now, and they are bowing out.

Both the Suns insider and the Cavs insider posting on RealCavs said a deal should be decided on tomorrow before the Suns game.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

It's conflicting. I see they don't want him or they're not that high on him. I think if Miami included a pick they'd do it. 


According to Stein on ESPN before," Suns want good asset or two, draft pick if possible, will go right up until deadline to make decision." If that's the case, Cavs might have to go plan B if they want to know by tomorrow. :gopray: this happens too.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

According to Bob Finnan Amare doesn't want to go to Cleveland!!!!

I guess the Cavs will no pivot off of this deal and go back and get Jamison/Mike Miller that the Wizards are now dangling out the window? Or stand pat.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

lol @ Amare not wanting to go. Maybe him and Shaq have serious problems with each other?


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> According to Bob Finnan Amare doesn't want to go to Cleveland!!!!
> 
> I guess the Cavs will no pivot off of this deal and go back and get Jamison/Mike Miller that the Wizards are now dangling out the window? Or stand pat.


Wow. I hope this is true. 

It's been said Amare's preferred destination is Miami.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Hibachi! said:


> lol @ Amare not wanting to go. Maybe him and Shaq have serious problems with each other?


Or he heard about the Cavs playing defense, and it scared him


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Good, Amare on the Cavs would be pretty damn scary. 



futuristxen said:


> This is a Gasol type deal though. This is a straight theft. So I don't know if what Suns fans want really amount to much. Their owner has no money.


Given how good Marc Gasol is the Gasol dead probably isn't even a top 20 all time superstar trade in terms of low value returned. This deal would be, though, unless Hickson turns into good, which is possible.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Cleveland just isn't getting Amare. It's too easy for them to be outbid. The Bulls could offer some package of Tyrus Thomas, Jerome James, and Taj Gibson, and even that craptastic package would give the Suns a better young player in Gibson than the Cavs are offering with Hickson.

And that's not to say that the Bulls would get Amare with such a deal, but just shows how pathetic the Cavs deal is, and how easily they will be outbid as the deadline approaches.


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## Sliccat (Oct 16, 2004)

Organized Chaos said:


> Wow. I hope this is true.
> 
> It's been said Amare's preferred destination is Miami.


It's not like he couldn't go to Miami next year. That's a weird idea.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Cap said:


> Good, Amare on the Cavs would be pretty damn scary.
> 
> 
> 
> Given how good Marc Gasol is the Gasol dead probably isn't even a top 20 all time superstar trade in terms of low value returned. This deal would be, though, unless Hickson turns into good, which is possible.


Hickson would thrive in their system though. He's a good pick and roll player, and likes to finish around the rim. He also has a back to the basket game that he doesn't get to use often because the Cavs don't run plays for him.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

BG7 said:


> Cleveland just isn't getting Amare. It's too easy for them to be outbid. The Bulls could offer some package of Tyrus Thomas, Jerome James, and Taj Gibson, and even that craptastic package would give the Suns a better young player in Gibson than the Cavs are offering with Hickson.
> 
> And that's not to say that the Bulls would get Amare with such a deal, but just shows how pathetic the Cavs deal is, and how easily they will be outbid as the deadline approaches.


I guess we'll see.


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## carlos710 (Jun 13, 2002)

If Amare doesn't wants to go to cleveland I wonder what kind of impact it will have on Lebron, specially if the cavs don't win the ring.

Supposedly he is pushing for an Amare trade, how would he feel knowing that after years of not having a legitimate all-star next to him when there is a chance for his team to get one Amare refuses to go to because he doesn't likes cleveland?


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Sliccat said:


> It's not like he couldn't go to Miami next year. That's a weird idea.


Cavs want him longterm though if they do this deal.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

BG7 said:


> Cleveland just isn't getting Amare. It's too easy for them to be outbid. The Bulls could offer some package of Tyrus Thomas, Jerome James, and Taj Gibson, and even that craptastic package would give the Suns a better young player in Gibson than the Cavs are offering with Hickson.
> 
> And that's not to say that the Bulls would get Amare with such a deal, but just shows how pathetic the Cavs deal is, and how easily they will be outbid as the deadline approaches.


I don't know. I wouldn't put it past this front office though.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Joe Johnson is more valuable than Antawn Jamison, no doubt in my mind. I take Joe over Jamison 13 times out of 10.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Amare wants and has always wanted to go to one of the Florida teams, if he can't stay in Phoenix. That has been known for a while now. If the Heat offer Beasley, I'd say that is a done deal if they can find a 3rd team to help out.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

That rumor about Amare not wanting to go to Cleveland has been shot down. He would go there.


Heat are also making a push. :gopray: 


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4917483



> Miami Heat have intensified their efforts to trump Cleveland in the chase for Phoenix Suns forward Amare Stoudemire, sources close to the situation said Monday.
> 
> The Heat emerged from the All-Star break even more determined than they were before to find a third team to help them broker an Amare deal before Thursday's 3 p.m. deadline.
> 
> ...


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Yeah Amare already tweeted about the fact that he plays fine with Shaq. So him not wanting to go to Cleveland doesn't make sense or else he wouldn't have said that. The thing is that it seems kind of like the Lakers with Gasol. There were teams offering juicier deals but the Grizz went with the Laker deal. Yes, Gasol really panned out but you can't argue that the front office was thinking about that when they were touting that the prospect they wanted was really Crittenton.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Organized Chaos said:


> That rumor about Amare not wanting to go to Cleveland has been shot down. He would go there.
> 
> 
> Heat are also making a push. :gopray:
> ...


BAM! Suns come out winners of the Amare trade, Wizards get cap relief, and Miami gets Amare.










Or the super trade:










Tell me that no one wants that trade!


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

The Wizards need Beasley. HTF you gonna trade your 3 best players and watch the Suns get the best young prospect in the deal to. Stop screwing the Wizards over in these deals, cap relief isn't god.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I really wonder what people think the Wizards would do with this cap space. Are they going to hire Joe Dumars and go spend a hundred million dollars on long term deals for a couple of mediocre players? At some point the Wizards have to make a basketball trade, because at the end of the day they're in the basketball business and they're charging their customers for basketball. They're not in the cap space business and noone is going to drop down a hundred bucks for two tickets to go see cap space.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Right now the Wizards' options are to A) Lose while paying luxury tax and keep tickets high to meet the payroll or B) Lose while being under the cap and drop the price of the tickets so people are more willing to go to the games.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

That has nothing to do with you not giving them Beasley in that deal. At least when they traded for Howard they got a good player they could keep if they wanted.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Or maybe they could trade for young players and draft picks so that at some point they had a basketball team


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Dre™ said:


> That has nothing to do with you not giving them Beasley in that deal. At least when they traded for Howard they got a good player they could keep if they wanted.


Well, if they weren't desperately trying to recoup their losses and shed future salaries, then I would be inclined to agree with you. They want to nuke their team. There is no way around it. They want to shed salary hard and fast.

Are you really going to sit there and claim that Howard and Butler are equal talent-wise? Butler had another 10million on his contract after this year and Howard doesn't. That's why they went for him. They don't want Gilbo and Miami is so desperate to keep Wade, they'll probably gamble with getting Arenas.


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## O2K (Nov 19, 2002)

at this point i dont think stoudemire will be traded. its been taking too long.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Hyperion said:


> Well, if they weren't desperately trying to recoup their losses and shed future salaries, then I would be inclined to agree with you. They want to nuke their team. There is no way around it. They want to shed salary hard and fast.
> 
> Are you really going to sit there and claim that Howard and Butler are equal talent-wise? Butler had another 10million on his contract after this year and Howard doesn't. That's why they went for him. They don't want Gilbo and Miami is so desperate to keep Wade, they'll probably gamble with getting Arenas.


Did I say Howard and Butler are equal? Find where I "claimed" that. Work with what I give you. 

All I said is Howard isn't some Terrell Brandon token contract, they still have a duty to bring back quality players, because as once you trade your top 3-4 players you're not going to have much ammo after that, so you should get back what you *need*.

The Wizards are not firesaling, they want to get under the luxury tax sure (who wants to pay the tax and be mediocre), but they're not just trading everybody like the media would have you believe. They don't even care to trade Jamison because they keep getting lowballed by teams that think they'll just take an expiring. Butler and Haywood were primarily to leverage them under the tax now and in the future, but Howard is still a good player. Like Diable said it's still partially about basketball. 

I wish people would stop trying to treat the Wizards like the stepchild and just throw expiring deals at them in their little trade scenarios.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

O2K said:


> at this point i dont think stoudemire will be traded. its been taking too long.


Naw they're leveraging. Stoudemire is the best asset they're going to have for the next 5 years so they need to take their time and wait until 11:59 if need be.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Dre™ said:


> Did I say Howard and Butler are equal? Find where I "claimed" that. Work with what I give you.
> 
> All I said is Howard isn't some Terrell Brandon token contract, they still have a duty to bring back quality players, because as once you trade your top 3-4 players you're not going to have much ammo after that, so you should get back what you *need*.
> 
> ...


Oh, so the trade for Howard was a talent trade. My mistake.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Dre™ said:


> I wish people would stop trying to treat the Wizards like the stepchild and just throw expiring deals at them in their little trade scenarios.


Expiring deals only really work when you have a GM or management group who would know what they are doing. Teams like Portland and OKC did the firesale thing. But, they knew how to draft and trade and now they have exciting young teams that will make the playoffs. 

I haven't seen in the time I have watched the NBA where the Wizards/Bullets ever had a clue what to do. Giving a max deal to a man who just missed a whole season with a bad leg doesn't show me much...Oops, sorry Sixer fans :funny:


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Hyperion said:


> Oh, so the trade for Howard was a talent trade. My mistake.


Yes,


> *(moving) Butler and Haywood was primarily to leverage them under the tax now and in the future*, but Howard is still a good player. Like Diable said it's still *partially* about basketball.


 means it was a talent trade.

Or maybe you're not ready to handle the potentially complex notion that some GMs actually make transactions that have more than one benefit.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

J-Ho hasn't been a good player in two years. That deal was purely about the economics. Washington is going to decline that option at the earliest possible date.


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## hendrix2430 (Mar 21, 2005)

It's hilarious, you guys should visit some Cavs forums. Most poster there would need to be put on suicide watch if the Cavs don't get STAT...even funnier when you consider that you're talking about the best team in the league. They have the pieces to win it all right there.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

hendrix2430 said:


> It's hilarious, you guys should visit some Cavs forums. Most poster there would need to be put on suicide watch if the Cavs don't get STAT...even funnier when you consider that you're talking about the best team in the league. They have the pieces to win it all right there.


Did Mo _No Mas_ Williams give you a promise that his testicles won't be retracting this postseason?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Looks like they wont get Amare, Woj is saying they are pushing for Jamison. Guess Hickson will be coming off the bench with Varejao. Weird.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

You better not have jinxed it by saying that and then it does happen. I *hate *the Cleveland deal.

Miami's offering Beasley, Q or Haslem, 1st rder. Suns might be holding out for more or the better of 2 1sts (yeah, they're ****ing stupid). Another combo of JO as primary expiring, not sure what else. .


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Well they wont have any offers by the time all this is said and done. Once Cleveland goes through with the Wiz trade, Miami will be their best bet. Someone in Florida needs to tell Riley that Beasley is going to be a pretty good player in the long run.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Kerr and Ferry are friends. I think he'll help maintain some leverage If they decide they can't do the Cav deal because it's not enough. I hope they realize it's not enough. 

Riley wants Amare and it's most likely he sees Bosh as unattainable in FA and you're not luring Bron from Cleveland, especially if they get Amare. You also want to stop that from happening. Plus, is there anyone else big out there to appease Wade ? I doubt it. Then you risk losing him.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

HB said:


> Well they wont have any offers by the time all this is said and done. Once Cleveland goes through with the Wiz trade, Miami will be their best bet. *Someone in Florida needs to tell Riley that Beasley is going to be a pretty good player in the long run*.


if Riley would only open up his ears for a second he'd hear that from more than half of us down here. It all hinges on if Pat has the balls to hold off the panic-inducing-fear of Wade possibly leaving, should we not make a move right now..


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Riley is afraid of having Beasley get 28 shots a night next year and everyone finding out how good he is


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

He'll explode in PHX and actually get used right.


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

Diable said:


> Riley is afraid of having Beasley get 28 shots a night next year and everyone finding out how good he is


Oh great, let's hand over the franchise to a guy who didn't even want to live a year ago. That's real smart ! 

Wade is gone if they don't improve. Now or later whatever. He showed in the ASG what he can still do with some help. Real, proven, reliable help.


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## carlos710 (Jun 13, 2002)

Organized Chaos said:


> You better not have jinxed it by saying that and then it does happen. I *hate *the Cleveland deal.
> 
> Miami's offering Beasley, Q or Haslem, 1st rder. Suns might be holding out for more or the better of 2 1sts (yeah, they're ****ing stupid). Another combo of JO as primary expiring, not sure what else. .





ESPN said:


> According to an NBA source, the Heat are offering Daequan Cook, Quentin Richardson, Dorell Wright, Mario Chalmers and draft picks to the Suns. Cook is the only player among that group who is under contract for next season (Chalmers has a team option for $847,000). It is believed that the Suns would rather have a package from Cleveland that would include Zydrunas Ilgauskas, J.J. Hickson and a draft pick, with the young Hickson as the most appealing part of the package.



Heat offer is trash too. Actually, I think is even worst than the cavs offer. With the cavs they are getting at least one young player with some potential to turn into something (hickson).

Never expected the heat to make Beasley available for a guy who could walk in the offseason anyway.


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## Dissonance (Jul 21, 2004)

Miami's offeriing a combo of deals. Beasley is in one of them. Other and more reliable sources/articles are mentioning it.


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## sMaK (Jun 13, 2002)

I really don't believe that the Heat are offering Beasley. Maybe it's just the homer in me but it just doesn't make much sense for them.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Does anyone really still believe by this point that Beasley is going to develop into anything worth a damn? He's got a lot of talent, but everytime I see him he looks completely lost. Even in the rookie game he looked out of it. I don't know that the guy even wants to be a top player.


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## myst (Feb 22, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> Does anyone really still believe by this point that Beasley is going to develop into anything worth a damn? He's got a lot of talent, but everytime I see him he looks completely lost. Even in the rookie game he looked out of it. I don't know that the guy even wants to be a top player.


Good point. 21 years of age is a perfect time to judge somebody's future potential.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

myst said:


> Good point. 21 years of age is a perfect time to judge somebody's future potential.


I think two years in an NBA player should be getting better. Where is the progression in his game? I think he's definitely talented, but so far he's had an underwhelming career on both the pro and college level, given those talents.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> I think two years in an NBA player should be getting better. Where is the progression in his game? I think he's definitely talented, but* so far he's had an underwhelming career *on both the pro and *college level,* given those talents.


oh sure, 26/12 on 54% shooting in 30 mins! - not to mention NPOY runner-up real underwhelming in college...what are you talkin about?

he may not be a great player yet, but as someone who watches every game, not just the 4 you see him in when we play your Lebrons, he certainly has progressed. If you want to know how, i'll be glad to explain.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

I think Beasley is viewed poorly because people see a lot of Derrick Coleman in him... Plus system wise, he'd do a lot better with the Suns the the Wade-centric offense of Miami. It's a win-win for both the Suns and the Heat.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

E.H. Munro said:


> J-Ho hasn't been a good player in two years. That deal was purely about the economics. Washington is going to decline that option at the earliest possible date.


He's been phoning it in ever since that video fiasco and the trade rumors started. He still has it in him to be a good player.

And per Beasley you can go in our own Heat board and see that a lot of Heat fans think he's misused within the offense. That said it's pretty clear that he's not going to be as valuable as Rose either. If your Phoenix though you have to take him back if he's offered, he's _something_.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Yeah, after two years of injury and disinterest, I don't think he has it in him to be anything more than bench depth. And, as Washington is going to decline the option and thus renounce him, there's no way to cogently argue that the Wizards are doing this for talent, he's a 30 game rental.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

That doesn't make sense to me. If anything I believe he'll be invigorated. 

And no, once again, I never said this was primarily a talent move, but Howard is no pushover, I don't care what anyone says.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Yeah, I'm not sure how much being "invigorated" is going to do for an injured player of declining athleticism. The Wizard trading a better player for an injured guy on a thirty game deal was in no possible way about talent. They were looking to slash payroll period. Let's stop pretending elsewise.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

futuristxen said:


> I think two years in an NBA player should be getting better. Where is the progression in his game? I think he's definitely talented, but so far he's had an underwhelming career on both the pro and college level, given those talents.


Good thing you weren't GM of the Suns when they drafted Nash or else you would have traded him within 2 seasons on the team..... wait a second....


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