# What is the hurry to get rid of Rose? (very long post)



## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

*What is the Hurry? (very long post)*

I see the usual barrage of Rose trade threads and I really want to know what the damn hurry is?

*Lizzy, his salary is killing the cap!*

1. Tyson and Eddy - the big contract guys (although probably not Tyson) aren't up this year. Why not worry about dumping Rose's salary next year if it's a problem? The team made progress so why hurt it just to save money in the future. The Bulls only have the MLE regardless.

2. If the bulls improve enough to hit the 8th seed which they can do _with this team_ then why make a major change for reason that isn't urgent. If this team can make the play-offs next year then perhaps paying a little luxury tax won't hurt. Rose's contract will only coincide w/ Tyson and Eddy's for one or two years anyway.

3. They didn't lower the ticket prices when the Bulls were under the cap and painful to watch so screw Reinsdortf. Time to pay after making money hand over fist for 5 years.

4. None of you are paying the salaries. 

5. Again - we only have the MLE no matter what. If we trade Rose we have to take back his salary for a year no matter what. Why rush it. Let's see how this team does first.

*Lizzy, he's hurting the growth of the young guys!*

1. No he's not. When the actual future of the team and not Blount, Hassell and Marshall were playing all the minutes he took far fewer shots. If you want him to be unselfish when he's on the court with Trenton and Corie then that's your problem.

2. People might say he slowed down Jay Williams development but didn't Jay start to suck in the middle of the season and then improve a great deal after he was benched? How did Rose affect that. It's not Rose's fault that BC didn't play Jamal and Jay together or Eddy for more than 15 mpg.

3. Isn't it possible that Paxson can sit down w/ Rose and tell him what he wants him to do next season? If Jalen doesn't listen then he can be traded in February. I'm sure there are teams that would do it. Rose is still good he just doesn't live up to Chicago fan's "lofty" standards.

*Lizzy, he's 30 - years old*

1. Find me a team that wins titles without guys in their 30's playing key roles. Good luck. 

2. A team of:

Jay
Jamal
Dunleavy
Chandler
Curry

would be exciting. And not very good.

*Dammit Lizzy, he's a team cancer!*

1. He's honest. He tells reporters what he thinks instead of canned answers. So does Pippen and you all want him. As far as being a cancer on the Bulls we have no proof of that.

*Lizzy, you idiot! We can trade him for a younger better player!*

Wally - better? Nope. I have been shocked with what I have seen in the play-offs. He is younger though.

Tim Thomas - a guy George Karl had to bench to light a fire under him. Couldn't even step up after the Glen Robinson trade. 

Eddie Jones - older, injury prone, not as good. Gee - what a bargain. But he's a "better fit for our kids." I disagree. How so? How do we know that? Rose is one of the best passing SF in the NBA. And when he's playing w/ the big 3 he passes to them.

*He's a lousy defender*

1. True. There aren't too many defensive minded players in the league anymore. Rose does what he can. He gets a hand in the face. He doesn't leave his feet and slam into a jumpshooter like everyone does to Kobe. He has had games where he's help his opponent to bad shooting. Although - I doubt that was mentioned here.

Do you guys want to improve next year? Make the play-offs? Making a huge change will hurt the team more than keeping Rose. You can write this off that I'm just a Rose fan. I can't do anything about that. I just don't understand how shortsighted some of you are regarding him. I'm not opposed to trading Rose if it makes the team better. I am opposed to a irrational, stupid trade just to dump his salary. Why do we care if Reinsdorf has to pay some money for a year? He has screwed the fans the last five and made millions. Highest in attendance w/ the lowest payroll? I am not crying for him. He owes the fans. $85 for a decent seat to see Mercer and Greg Anthony? He can pay luxury tax for a year.

Perhaps if I propose trades involving your favorite players that actually help the team to see how that goes?

Jay and Dalibar for Adonal Foyle?

Jay and Robinson for Rueben Patterson and a re-signed Daniels?

Jay, Fizer for Lamar Odom?

I feel Jay Williams is a team cancer that can't play defense and slows down the growth of Jamal Crawford. Plus he'll want a big salary. 

Or they can make some small changes and continue on with what they started to do at the end of this year.

Sorry for the length - both bosses are out of town.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: What is the Hurry? (very long post)*

[Edited by TB#1. That was insulting to Lizzy and uncalled for.]


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## TheLastTruePG (Mar 25, 2003)

*Re: What is the Hurry? (very long post)*



> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> 
> 2. A team of:
> 
> ...


I really dont see anything exciting about that line up.. I  

Rose is a team player.. no one notice during parts of the game he's in one of his players ear giving them advice.. when eddy got back in the starting lineup.. JR was always looking for EC.. JR let his team know when they played good and was blunt when they wree bad.. This is a guy with NBA finals experience.. You dont trade that for a one year wonder(see Tim Thomas).. :|


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

*Re: Re: What is the Hurry? (very long post)*



> Originally posted by <b>DMD</b>!



If I made that comment to one of you boys I'd be accused of calling you gay and banned for inapropriate behavior or something like that. 

Thanks for reminding me that I'm just a girl. Whatever helps you sleep at night, DUDE!


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## TheLastTruePG (Mar 25, 2003)

*Re: Re: What is the Hurry? (very long post)*



> Originally posted by <b>DMD</b>!


 Shame on you..


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## TheLastTruePG (Mar 25, 2003)

If Lizzy was a guy.. you probably wouldn't have even said that.. But the fact that she's a lady makes it alright?!?!?!? This is very disturbing... :nonono: You should apologize..


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

*Re: What is the Hurry? (very long post)*



> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> I see the usual barrage of Rose trade threads and I really want to know what the damn hurry is?
> 
> *Lizzy, his salary is killing the cap!*
> ...


I agree that there is definitley no need to rush to trade Jalen Rose. Rose is a pretty solid player and not nearly as bad as people make him out to be. I do think that Cartwright allows him to try to "take over" a little bit too much in the clucth. I prefer that it remain a team game regardless of the score or how much time is left. I also think Jalen sometimes has a poor shot selection and doesn't work hard enough on defense. But, he also has his redeeming qualities. If he could add a little strength, improve his shot selection, and involve his teamates more he would be a VERY impressive ball player. 

I do think the Bulls should deal Rose if they can land someone better. After all, the whole point is to improve the team. I think your off base on your comments about Wally. He may not look good in the playoff series but he IS a player. I'd really have to think long and hard about a Rose for Wally deal as they are very close to the same level of abilities IMO.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Lizzy, good post. I would like to add that you also have to consider what it took to get him here as well as the Bulls horrible replacements for them:

-- Miller, an All-Star on Indiana
-- Artest, all NBA nutjob but top on-the-ball defender in L
-- Mercer, overpaid shooter
-- Ollie, servicable backup PG and defender


The Bulls replacements:
-- Hassell, remember how Jerry K almost started crying last year when he was talking about Hassell taking over Mercer's role? yikes, he's brutal
-- E-Rob, not a servicable NBA starter though paid like one

So now that Jerry K is gone, who else is there to scream at for the Bulls worse-than-mediocrity? You bet, Jalen Rose. Lots of it is unfair, yes, but for getting a 2nd level maxed out contract, he deserves some of it. That is why I would consider getting another player to replace him.




VD


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Re: What is the Hurry? (very long post)*



> Originally posted by <b>DMD</b>!
> [Edited by TB#1. That was insulting to Lizzy and uncalled for.]



:upset:


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## andras (Mar 19, 2003)

excellent post, lizzy. you make some very good points

jalen is often judged very unfairly on this board:
- it's a pretty tough situation he came into last season and he took it as a man
- it's not easy being the best player of a bad team, 'cause people only watch your weak points. definitely when you're no longer considered 'a young player with hughe upside'
- and pretty much all the points lizzy made in her post

unless we're able to land an even better players - and in that case we're talking about guys like paul pierce - I don't want to part with jalen this summer


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Outstanding.

Especially this line:

>>*When the actual future of the team and not Blount, Hassell and Marshall were playing all the minutes he took far fewer shots. If you want him to be unselfish when he's on the court with Trenton and Corie then that's your problem.*<<


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: What is the Hurry? (very long post)*



> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I apologize, Lizzy. Everyone around here knows how much you like Jalen. I was just trying to be funny, and I'm sorry if I was offensive.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: What is the Hurry? (very long post)*



> Originally posted by <b>DMD</b>!
> 
> 
> I apologize.
> ...


You a member of the Dixie Chicks?


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## jimmy (Aug 20, 2002)

Good post. The good Jalen does outweighs the bad.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: What is the Hurry? (very long post)*



> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> I feel Jay Williams is a team cancer that can't play defense and slows down the growth of Jamal Crawford. Plus he'll want a big salary.


Reluctently, I was nodding my head when reading your post. I almost forgot about Rose's crappy shooting % this year, his matador defense and all the problems he had adjusting in Indiana as they added some good young players.

But after the nonsensical attack on JWill at the end, I am not so sure any of the logic was sound. :no:


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

*Re: Re: What is the Hurry? (very long post)*



> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Reluctently, I was nodding my head when reading your post. I almost forgot about Rose's crappy shooting % this year, his matador defense and all the problems he had adjusting in Indiana as they added some good young players.
> ...


There was no logic in attacking Jay, you're right. Jay gets a pass where Rose doesn't because he's a rookie. In 8 years I don't see Jay making the same mistakes he made this year. No sarcasm - I really don't. 

My point is - you're not going to get McGrady, Pierce, Kobe for Rose so why are people dying to get rid of him for players who are worse? Just to save Reinsdorf a few bucks? You get rid of Jalen's shooting %, matador defense etc. and you take on a different player with a different set of different problems. 

If it's not an upgrade why bother? I've been saying that all along b/c I truly believe it.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Well I know you dont agree but Rose is worse than Wally that is why we are discussing these two. Wally is younger, a better shooter, has better shot selection, more physical player on both ends, cheaper contract. Rose has more experience and is a better ball handler and passer. IMO that puts Wally above Rose.


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> Well I know you dont agree but Rose is worse than Wally that is why we are discussing these two. Wally is younger, a better shooter, has better shot selection, more physical player on both ends, cheaper contract. Rose has more experience and is a better ball handler and passer. IMO that puts Wally above Rose.


You can't beat expereince... The will and want to create shots for others is also VERY important and Rose has shown the ability to do this numerous times, not to mention he is lights out in the final minute of games on free throws... ROSE > WALLY


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> Well I know you dont agree but Rose is worse than Wally that is why we are discussing these two. Wally is younger, a better shooter, has better shot selection, more physical player on both ends, cheaper contract. Rose has more experience and is a better ball handler and passer. IMO that puts Wally above Rose.


How can you say that? That's your opinion that Rose is worse. 

Seems that only half the people think Wally is better than Rose. He has been downright bad in the play-offs.

Besides the strengths that you list for Rose are what the Bulls need more than Wally's strengths.

Jamal is the team's best pure shooter.
The Bulls are already super young. Don't need to get younger.
Tyson and Eddy can't handle the ball at all. Bulls could use another guy that can.

Rose improved his shot selection. 

Do you watch Bulls games or just check the box score? I'm asking in all seriousness.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Well lets agree to disagree.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

I watched about 65 of the games this year. Is that enough for you or did you watch 66 and therefore know more than I do. Geez!


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> I watched about 65 of the games this year. Is that enough for you or did you watch 66 and therefore know more than I do. Geez!


Bagshetti I think you just need to reword some of the stuff you say

"Rose is worse than Wally that is why we are discussing these two."


these kind of quotes can just get on people's nerves because you ACT as if this is a fact, which it's not... it's an opinion.

I disagree with that opinion as well as Lizzy does... and I'm sure Lizzy knew you watched the Bull's game that was just a cheap shot...


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Point taken Hawk I will be more careful in how I word things. Me saying Rose is worse is my opinion and I realize that is not what everyone thinks.


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## TheLastTruePG (Mar 25, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: What is the Hurry? (very long post)*



> Originally posted by <b>DMD</b>!
> 
> 
> I apologize, Lizzy. Everyone around here knows how much you like Jalen. I was just trying to be funny, and I'm sorry if I was offensive.


"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive, but do not forget." -Thomas Szasz


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## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> Point taken Hawk I will be more careful in how I word things. Me saying Rose is worse is my opinion and I realize that is not what everyone thinks.


thats cool, I do it all the time too... everyone does


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## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

Lizzy, I love the love you have for the team! 

If Rose plays like he did against philly in the last game, he's an asset.


If he plays like he did for most of the year, he's an *******!


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bulls4Life</b>!
> Lizzy, I love the love you have for the team!
> 
> If Rose plays like he did against philly in the last game, he's an asset.
> ...


People mistake my defense of Rose as being some sort of crazy one-sided blind love.

That's not the case.

I think he's the sacraficial lamb of the team for no reason. He made some awful shots and had terrible games. If he were traded in a good trade that would be fine. There are so many anti-Rose people that I feel like posting the other side of the situation. If there weren't so many people that hated him I probably wouldn't talk about him much at all.

Basghetti - I asked if you watched the games b/c I know a lot of people here can't and use the espn refresh the score method. I didn't know which catergory you fell under.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Rose is not Jordan. 

Nobody is. From here on out, all our players will have some flaws.


Even Eddy at his peak will annoy you folks. Get used to it.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: What is the Hurry? (very long post)*



> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> I see the usual barrage of Rose trade threads and I really want to know what the damn hurry is?
> 
> *Lizzy, his salary is killing the cap!*
> ...


a very good sensible well thought out post lizzy i am in complete agreement


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## Sicky Dimpkins (May 28, 2002)

Lizzy: I admire your patience and restraint. This thread has been a long time coming. I'd have fired back alot sooner and with more threads if I thought/felt the way you do.

I don't think/feel the way you do. I have zero problem with you or your position. I'd prefer to take a "Dave Mason" approach: "there's only you and me and we just disagree". 

I'm just a casual fan who watches every game available on Comcast cable here in Aurora, Illinois. I also use stats and make generalizations based on what I've observed over my 40+ years to form opinions on what a virtual GM ought to do to win championships. This is my goal with the stupid proposals I post. I know you don't make many if any proposals but am sure you want the same thing. For me it's fun and I got hooked(on the other site). 

Since it's "paper trading" as you correctly point out, it's easier to make deals than in real life and the trades are different than they would be in real life as well. This is due to the forum and not Rose in particular.

If the Bull were winning there would be fewer Rose(or other) trades too I suspect.

Having said that here's why I've posted many trade Jalen ideas:

1. His primary addition to the team is scoring and I'm optimistic that EC, at least one of the guards, *TC!* and quite possibly the pick can do that if given the chances Jalen has had. I view shooting as the candy of basketball. Take it away and there's usually problems. Here's where I make a generalization. 

2. Teams generally pay most dearly for shooting(relative to other skills)(despite the talk about being interested in "D"). If Rose will be asked to shoot less then his value to the Bull decreases, UNLESS he does "the other things" much more than he does now. Another generalization but I doubt he will(happily).

3. Fit: "Buff" him up a bit, play the 3, have him shoot instead of drive, let younger legs run the backcourt and decide when he gets the ball, let the bigs lead(I am biased here) and I'm fine with him staying. I think in this role he would regain his FG%(maybe increase it due to fewer duties?). It also fits his lazy shoe shuffling style with minimal damage to the team.

The Rose for Jones trade idea is indeed a "fit" trade. It does indeed favor Miami for the reasons you mentioned(Rose healthier/younger/taller/more versatile). The reason I've said I'd do it is because I don't think Jalen would accept truthfully a decreased on the ball role. I can actually see Jones coming off the bench in a 3 way guard rotation working peacefully(JW,JC,EJ). The shift in emphasis from on ball "O" to off ball "O"(catch & shoot) and "D" may not compensate fully in an objective sense for Rose but it does come close(for me). I don't want Jalen dominating the ball. If he stays I want him shooting & passing to the bigs and letting others dribble.

You are right to challenge this trade. Objectively it doesn't work. For me it hinges on "fit" and acceptance of a role that is needed(shoot when passed to) and rejecting one that is no longer needed(primary scorer/creater). I'm less confident Rose will make that shift than you seem to be. 
It's not easy to place a value on "fit" however.

Also I think EJ can "D" up the 2 better than JR can the 3(where I prefer him) and I like his 3PT% too.

4. $: Excellent points as usual. The Bull are capped so the MLE is the most they can spend anyway. It's not the fans money. 

Timing:
Unlike the Jones deal, a salary dump type of trade of Rose would erase the MLE limitation. It would take a year for the expiring contract to expire however. If the Bull think Rose fits(age isn't the issue for me) in a championship run then fine, keep him. If they don't, then acting now (*before* the youngsters get their raises) allows for one last(when will they end?) reformulation before being "permanently" capped and limited by the MLE and lower draft picks. There would be 1 year of "suffering" presumeably used to see what could be solved organically and what would be needed outside of the team. The advantage of cash(cap space) as opposed to players is that not only would FA's be available more readily but also it could be used to absorb salary in a trade(REVERSE THE TRADE THAT DUMPED ROSE FOR A PLAYER WHO IS JUDGED TO FIT BETTER?). It provides more flexibility the way cash beats the barter system. 

Why the Rose contract?

Right now the Bull are just over the cap and trading anyone but Rose or ER won't get them under the cap much. Rose has value to other teams and so could be traded in this manner. ER doesn't (although perhaps he could be combined with another player).

Would the 1 year of suffering(and missing the playoffs) be outweighed in the long run with a better fitting player who helps the Bull win at the end of June? I think it might but this is a real serious point.

Bottom line: I want what you want: Jewelry(for the Bull!).
As much as I try I can't trade anybody. We'll both still be Bull fans if Rose is here or not. If I go over the line just smack me and I'll back off. I'd rather have the exchange of ideas etc. with you and others than post my 20th trade player X idea.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

he is a PG...play him there and you will make the playoffs..learn this, GEEZ


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## Benny the Bull (Jul 25, 2002)

This team still needs a veteran player of the calibre of Rose. I get frustrated with Rose like many people, but if we looked to trade him, it would be very difficult to get equal value in return. Eddie Jones and Sprewell are not as good as Rose at the moment. Wally is a superior shooter to Rose, but Rose is a better player. If Rose tows the line and starts committing to defense, trusting his teammates and sharing the ball, he will be very valuable. If not, bye bye Jalen. Another point is that while it may be difficult to trade Jalen now, it will be evn harder in a year or two, hence which is why many people may want him traded now.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

rose is a pg!


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

First off, I just gotta give some props to Lizzy for an extremely intelligent, well-thought out post.....and for putting with some of the crap you've been getting. 
Now I'd like to offer my own take. As most of you know, I was big Jalen advocate for alot of this season. During the second half of the season, however, I became increasingly disenchanted with his play. I would go so far as to say I was dissapointed with him- for whatever reason, he wasn't the same player he was with Indy and when he first got here. I have to say that in retrospect, I really think the losing affected him. To label Jalen a "selfish" player is far too simple for my liking- he bought into and was extremely successful in a team concept in Indiana. You all saw with your own eyes how he was when he first got here- he took better shots than he does now because that was what he was used to. But when you're a team's best (and only) offensive weapon, and you see your team losing and noone else stepping, the tendency is to try to do everything yourself. Jalen overextended himself, and developed some bad habits in the process. Instead of picking his spots throughout the game until his team needed him and then stepping up, he was now trying to carry the team on his back for the entire game. I think that's why we saw such a dropoff in his crunch time production this season. He was clutch in Indiana- one of the league's best 4th quarter scorers despite sharing the spotlight with uberclutch Reggie Miller. This year, that has not been the case at all, as he has often looked tired and sluggish down the stretch of games.

Does Jalen need to be traded? No, I don't think so. He's not the greatest fit and I wouldn't hesitate to move him if the right deal came along (especially that we now have a very similat player in Jamal Crawford), but I think he can play with this team. To his credit, he was deterring noticeably more to his teammates throughout the final month and half of the season- that is, once they started looking like actual players. If our youngs keep up the production next season, I see no reason why we wouldn't see a return to past form from Jalen. Say what you will about him, he strikes me as a guy who legitimately wants to win and who will get up in your face if you're not bringing it. He's a gutsy veteran scorer who will come in *extremely* handy if we make it back to the playoffs next year, and he is an excellent passer for a SF.



> he is a PG...play him there and you will make the playoffs..learn this, GEEZ


I really don't think so. This is not Magic Johnson we're talking about- Jalen has a scorers mentality, and when he is a pg he tends to force things way too much. Plus, we've got too many pg's as it is.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> First off, I just gotta give some props to Lizzy for an extremely intelligent, well-thought out post.....and for putting with some of the crap you've been getting.
> Now I'd like to offer my own take. As most of you know, I was big Jalen advocate for alot of this season. During the second half of the season, however, I became increasingly disenchanted with his play. I would go so far as to say I was dissapointed with him- for whatever reason, he wasn't the same player he was with Indy and when he first got here. I have to say that in retrospect, I really think the losing affected him. To label Jalen a "selfish" player is far too simple for my liking- he bought into and was extremely successful in a team concept in Indiana. You all saw with your own eyes how he was when he first got here- he took better shots than he does now because that was what he was used to. But when you're a team's best (and only) offensive weapon, and you see your team losing and noone else stepping, the tendency is to try to do everything yourself. Jalen overextended himself, and developed some bad habits in the process. Instead of picking his spots throughout the game until his team needed him and then stepping up, he was now trying to carry the team on his back for the entire game. I think that's why we saw such a dropoff in his crunch time production this season. He was clutch in Indiana- one of the league's best 4th quarter scorers despite sharing the spotlight with uberclutch Reggie Miller. This year, that has not been the case at all, as he has often looked tired and sluggish down the stretch of games.
> 
> Does Jalen need to be traded? No, I don't think so. He's not the greatest fit and I wouldn't hesitate to move him if the right deal came along (especially that we now have a very similat player in Jamal Crawford), but I think he can play with this team. To his credit, he was deterring noticeably more to his teammates throughout the final month and half of the season- that is, once they started looking like actual players. If our youngs keep up the production next season, I see no reason why we wouldn't see a return to past form from Jalen. Say what you will about him, he strikes me as a guy who legitimately wants to win and who will get up in your face if you're not bringing it. He's a gutsy veteran scorer who will come in *extremely* handy if we make it back to the playoffs next year, and he is an excellent passer for a SF.


well said.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: What is the Hurry? (very long post)*



> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> 
> My point is - you're not going to get McGrady, Pierce, Kobe for Rose so why are people dying to get rid of him for players who are worse? Just to save Reinsdorf a few bucks? *You get rid of Jalen's shooting %, matador defense etc. and you take on a different player with a different set of different problems.  *


booyah!!.. . well said.


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## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: What is the Hurry? (very long post)*



> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> I see the usual barrage of Rose trade threads and I really want to know what the damn hurry is?
> 
> *Lizzy, his salary is killing the cap!*
> ...



great post, well said. never let the verbal bashing get to you.. keep posting whats on your mind because alot of us hear like what you have to say.

i dont agree with what you said about jay being a 'cancer'.. but i DO see the point you were trying to make. Most of the people who want jalen gone just want him gone to pump up jay's stats next year IMO.. because apparently many here feel that Jalen supposedly dosent pass to jay, which i definately do not agree with. without jalen *AN NBA FINALS PROVEN VETERAN*, we do NOT make the playoffs next year. simple as that. 

wally for jalen does not improve us one bit. the reason we need veterans is because we need guys to lead us during our playoff runs.. well... wally IS in the playoffs now and is not stepping up. what makes people think that he'd step up in the playoffs if he were a bull? like i said before,... jalen is NBA Finals PROVEN. wally is NBA playoffs proven.. proven that he dosent step up when it counts. now marc jackson, anthony peeler or troy hudson.. give me THOSE guys.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Lizzy,

the smartest post I've seen on here for a long time.

And that's a compliment to you, not an insult to our other posters.

Because of my own huge intellectual arrogance, take this also as a complement of the highest type:

You have spoken more truly and with more insight than I could have.


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

Lizzy, well thought out post even if I don't agree with it wholeheartedly.

My biggest problem with Rose is that he sets a very poor example for this team in some areas that I feel are necessary for the team's success. Basically, it seems like Jalen expects to be above reproach (or maybe its just that BC gives him that respect). For him to help this team going forward, he NEEDS to accept more of a veteran leadership role rather than acting like the superstar. I would like to see him averaging 15 or 16 ppg next year while deferring to Curry and Crawford's offense. He seemed to do this with greater frequency near the end of the season, which at least makes me hopeful.

The other things I don't like about him are his lack of defense, and his constant complaining. Making excuses on the court sets a TERRIBLE precedent, especially from a leadership perspective. I've never seen another player pout like Jalen does, and he has literally taken the team right out of games with his behavior at times. I suspect that Paxson will talk to him about this and let him know he expects better from him next year.

I really think that we can make a team of Jay/Jamal/Jalen/Chandler/Curry work in the end. It will require 10-15 lbs put onto both Chandler and Crawford, and I have confidence in them to do that. All our young guys have potential to be very good defenders, including Jay, Jamal and Eddy. They have the skills, they just need the experience.

I think the biggest deterrent to this lineup being our future is that it didn't work out this year and looks bad on paper right now. Everyone wants major moves made this offseason, but if we do make these moves it will be at the expense of our best talents. I'd rather wait another year, let them all develop more and adjust to new roles in terms of pecking order, then be ready to dominate the following year. The only move I'd really push for is to get Battier from Memphis for our 1st rounder this year, and our 2004 first rounder. Sorry, but we don't need anymore talent on this roster, we need the right veterans and role players. Battier would do WONDERS for us.

Finally just to address the Wally/Rose trade ideas, I'd be all for it, no offense to Rose. I just see a killer instinct in Wally that I love and the big advantage would be getting some youth, and getting a more efficient scorer. Defense is essentially a wash (although I do think Wally gets a bad rap that is somewhat undeserved) but adding him would make us one of the most efficient scoring teams in the league. A starting five of Curry/Chandler/Wally/Jamal/Jay could literally shoot a combined 50% from the field.

Again, I justify my feelings with one underlying point. I'm in it for the long haul with the Bulls. I'd rather have one more year where we may take a few lumps along the way if it's gonna mean we dominate in the future. We often take for granted the potential (especially on defense) of our young guys. We think about it too much on paper, but you gotta remember how much different this team will look on paper two years from now. They will all be VETERANS and will all have the size to stack up against the others at their position.

We can do it with or without Jalen. If we do it with Jalen (which I'm fine with) I just hope it includes both Jamal and Jay in the mix and that we don't make a hasty move in trading them away just because RIGHT NOW it doesn't seem like they can play alongside jalen effecitvely


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## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

*Why people complain about*

Rose's complaining is beyond me MJ was/is the king of it. Karl Malone was the prince.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Rose's complaining is beyond me MJ was/is the king of it. Karl Malone was the prince.


Kobe is the Duke.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: What is the Hurry? (very long post)*

OK, Lizzy, I think this is a really good post, but I'm going to pay you the "higher respect" of disagreeing with a lot of it 



> Originally posted by <b>Lizzy</b>!
> I see the usual barrage of Rose trade threads and I really want to know what the damn hurry is?
> 
> *Lizzy, his salary is killing the cap!*
> ...


This year it's not a big deal... and possibly it won't be a big deal at all... but with Crawford anf Fizer due for extensions this year and Curry and Chandler up next year we will find ourselves in the position of having to make a decision on a couple of them (Fizer and Crawford) that could hamstring us when it comes to re-signing Curry and Chandler down the road if Rose is still here.

In terms of long-term salary cap management, someone will have to go. Since ERob probably can't be unloaded, the main choices seem to be Fizer and Rose. Personally, I'd like to see Fizer cashed in for a future pick. That will save us a couple million and make it easier to endure a year with three large contracts (Rose, Chandler, Curry) a couple years down the road. If we don't do this, however, Rose may have to go.



> 3. They didn't lower the ticket prices when the Bulls were under the cap and painful to watch so screw Reinsdortf. Time to pay after making money hand over fist for 5 years.
> 
> 4. None of you are paying the salaries.


Unfortunately, Reinsdorf isn't going to screw Reinsdorf. If he thinks for more than a passing moment that this team isn't going to get anywhere, there's a decent chance he could let Curry or Chandler walk rather than pay them both AND Rose.

That's not fair to us maybe, but that's not even in the top 20 questions Reinsdorf thinks about at night.



> 5. Again - we only have the MLE no matter what. If we trade Rose we have to take back his salary for a year no matter what. Why rush it. Let's see how this team does first.


For a year, yes... but if we take back a guy with one year LESS on his contract, then we don't have the 3 simultaneous max contract problem we are staring at now.



> *Lizzy, he's hurting the growth of the young guys!*


Agree here.



> *Lizzy, he's 30 - years old*


...and here.



> *Dammit Lizzy, he's a team cancer!*
> 
> 1. He's honest. He tells reporters what he thinks instead of canned answers. So does Pippen and you all want him. As far as being a cancer on the Bulls we have no proof of that.


This isn't really what I don't like about him. What I don't like are the way he says things like he said in that article on Hassell.

He doesn't practice hard, he doesn't appear to always play hard. He doesn't dive for loose balls. He's a leader when he wants to be. 

If I see him as the best offensive player but trying hard to avoid the best defender in practice then so does everyone on the team. Not a good example.



> *Lizzy, you idiot! We can trade him for a younger better player!*
> 
> Wally - better? Nope. I have been shocked with what I have seen in the play-offs. He is younger though.
> 
> ...


Agree on Jones, especially after his latest injuries, but Wally is both younger and cheaper and Thomas' contract is quite a bit nicer in terms of meshing with Curry and Chandler... and he's a better defender. 



> *He's a lousy defender*
> 
> 1. True. There aren't too many defensive minded players in the league anymore. Rose does what he can. He gets a hand in the face. He doesn't leave his feet and slam into a jumpshooter like everyone does to Kobe. He has had games where he's help his opponent to bad shooting. Although - I doubt that was mentioned here.


All I can say is "not many". He can be a good defender when he wants to be, and he does try to "step up". But he's also Roger Dorn-like in his general intensity level.

I'm not saying he should be traded at all costs, or that he totally sucks, but he's got some definite issues that could affect the team on the court and affect financial decisions.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Good post Mike. Only if we could convince Bucks to take Rose for Thomas+filler. I am sure a lot of teams would give us a future pick for Fizer but I wonder if there is a deal that we could offer the Bucks that they would take. The one with Redd and Thomas is a dream that I realize would not happen but boy if it could.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

Thomas would make the Bulls worse than Rose. 

Wally has played like garbage against LA. I can't believe anyone can watch the LA/T-Wolves series and still entertain any thoughts about Wally. In fact, I have seen numerous websites saying how screwed the Wolves are to be stuck w/ Wally and his 60 million dollar contract.

Tim Thomas may have a better contract but it isn't good. And neither is he. Again, Big Dog was traded and he STILL couldn't step up and earn his money. I'd rather have Eddie Robinson at the SF.

As Bulls fans do you guys want to win or do you want to worry about the cap? If the cap is such an issue why are there so mnay trades involving Donyell Marshall? He's our cheapest most effective player? Why not package Fizer, Jay and this year's pick for an ending contract? Save money now and in the future. Because if we trade Rose now for Wally or Tim Thomas the Bulls will be bad still. Maybe another 30 win season. And Reinsdorf might not pay for Tyson and Eddy anyway if the Bulls don't improve.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

I disagree Lizzy if Paxson could pull off a Rose,Erob,1st rd pick for Thomas,Redd,Johnson the team would be better fit under cap and a better team overall IMO.



Crawford
Redd
Thomas
Chandler
Curry

Bench:
Williams
Hassell
Marshall
Fizer
Johnson

11/12 - Mason Jr,Baxter

IR - Hoiberg,Bagaric,2nd rd pick


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

While I'd love to have Michael Redd as our SG, if it takes getting Tim Thomas also, no thanks. Tim Thomas embodies all that is wrong with the Milwaukee Bucks; underachieving, lazy and selfish (not all the time, of course, but much of the time). Not to mention OVERPAID. I'll admit some of those are also traits of Jalen, but you can't honestly tell me that, on his good days, Jalen isn't a much, much better player than Thomas. Right now, what this team needs as much as anything else is stability with it's main guys; something we haven't had for years. Give Jalen a chance to show that he can be the "good Jalen" more often than not next season. I think it's possible that if he feels we can really make the playoffs, we'll see a more determined Jalen Rose. The last thing we need at this point is to trade our best player (yes, he IS our best player), especially after how much confidence the guys gained in the last 10 games of the season.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Redd replaces Rose and Thomas replaces Erob. So I dont see the problem.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> Redd replaces Rose and Thomas replaces Erob. So I dont see the problem.


The problem? Why would Milwaukee make a trade like this?

I agree. Some stability is needed. Who is to say if we made a trade like this that next season people we won't say "you know - Tyson needs to go. How about Tyson for a much cheaper Carlos Boozer."


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## PC Load Letter (Jun 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> Redd replaces Rose and Thomas replaces Erob. So I dont see the problem.


You don't see a problem with replacing 2 starters? Once again, a major change of personnel. I see a big problem with that. What about on-court chemistry? I don't think that can be under-valued. At some point, we need some stability. Guys need to play together for more than a season to really start improving and become a really good team. It's fine when teams replace a couple guys each season that are role players, but I don't think you can continue to replace 2 starting positions a year and expect to become a much better team anytime soon. We need to establish a clear core as soon as possible and keep it together for a while. The other clear problem I see, of course,is Tim Thomas just isn't that good of a player.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

> I agree. Some stability is needed. Who is to say if we made a trade like this that next season people we won't say "you know - Tyson needs to go. How about Tyson for a much cheaper Carlos Boozer."





Lizzy dont you think you are exagerrating quite a bit here. You are comparing me wanting to trade Rose for Thomas+filler to trading Tyson for Boozer. That is ridiculous. Tyson is part of the core we are building this team on, Rose is not as much as you seem to want him to be. Rose hurts us in the cap for signing our young kids to extensions down the road. That is the bottomline.


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Redd replaces Rose and Thomas replaces Erob. So I dont see the problem.


In no way is Michael Redd as good as Rose- he would not "replace" Rose-, and Thomas is not that much of an upgrade over ERob. The only reason for making that trade, IMO, would be salary cap issues. 
Something we have to remember in all this is that we are going to have Larry Bird rights to Tyson, Eddy, Jamal, and Marcus when they come up for extensions. That means that even if we are over the cap, we can still offer them more than any other team. So it's all about how much Reinsdorf wants to pay- and I don't think he'd mind paying some luxury tax if we're packing the 22,000 seat UC for all 82 regular season games and a few playoff games each year while getting a nice market share in the local tv ratings (which is what will happen when we start winning).


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

I think what is key is simply:

If Rose is not a chemistry killer (which he is BEGINNING to become, IMO, but can be easily fixed), then he should stay for that very reason: chemistry.

He can do what we need him to do. The good teams in basketball could probably improve their talent. But they don't, because they like what they have.

The Pistons are a great example, although their lack of experience and talent is showing through in the playoffs. But they THRIVE on chemistry, and they got the most wins in the Eastern conference on chemistry.

There needs to be a balance between talent and chemistry, but the chemistry is more important than the talent, I think.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, I don't think I am. Because this board has run the cycle of having trades that feature:

Eddy for Kwame
Jamal for Miles
Marshall for anyone
Rose for anyone
Jay for a sf
Now I've seen Tyson's name mentioned in trades.

Why is it so farfetched at this board that after a bad game by Tyson and a good game by Boozer that some people wouldn't want to trade Tyson?

To me that trade is no less absurd than a trade involving Tim Thomas to save money.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

I think you are severly overstating Rose's future with our team. I dont think there is any doubt that he will not make it to the end of his contract in a Bulls uniform. He was a stopgate plain and simple. Rose will be traded if not this summer than most certainly after next season. Now I admit Thomas is not even close to the best player in the world but he is not awful neither. He is 6'9, can defend, finishes well on the break, and is a pretty decent shooter. There are not going to be many options to trade Rose and Thomas is prolly one of the better options out there.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> I think you are severly overstating Rose's future with our team. I dont think there is any doubt that he will not make it to the end of his contract in a Bulls uniform. He was a stopgate plain and simple. Rose will be traded if not this summer than most certainly after next season. Now I admit Thomas is not even close to the best player in the world but he is not awful neither. He is 6'9, can defend, finishes well on the break, and is a pretty decent shooter. There are not going to be many options to trade Rose and Thomas is prolly one of the better options out there.


*So why do it?* That's the point you are missing. 

*Now I admit Thomas is not even close to the best player in the world but he is not awful neither. He is 6'9, can defend, finishes well on the break, and is a pretty decent shooter. There are not going to be many options to trade Rose and Thomas is prolly one of the better options out there.*

So we should trade a better player for a worse one because Rose shoots too much?

I don't think he's going to finish his contract in Chicago either. I never said I thought he would. What I have always said is that I don't want the Bulls to ship him off after the team started to make some progress for a worse player just for the sake of getting rid of him. If the Bulls make a major trade like that for a lesser player they will be shooting themselves in the foot. The team will be worse. Then who is to say Reinsdorf won't pay Eddy and Tyson because they didn't hit the goal of the play-offs. 

On the one hand you have Bulls fans who are so excited about the play-offs next year *based on how the team finished this year.* Then in the next breath you want to ship a major piece of that team for someone not as good and still make the play-offs. It really is baffling.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

We never will be able to trade Rose for a better player. For one we would never get that much value for him. Two the point of trading him is to let JC,Tyson,Eddy step up and become the leaders of the team. We would be trading him for a role player(s) that compliment those 3, which Thomas does. I know Thomas is not as good as Rose but he does compliment those 3 better.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> We never will be able to trade Rose for a better player. For one we would never get that much value for him. Two the point of trading him is to let JC,Tyson,Eddy step up and become the leaders of the team. We would be trading him for a role player(s) that compliment those 3, which Thomas does. I know Thomas is not as good as Rose but he does compliment those 3 better.


Are those three going to be ready this season to be leaders? I think they'll be a lot better but I doubt they'll be able to lead the team into the play-offs.

If Rose plays like he did in the month of April all next year will people quit suggesting that he is hurting the growth of our precious babies?

I've said it before and you all have watched the games but I feel I have to say it one more time.

Rose was on the court with Trenton Hassell, Corie Blount, Jay Williams who was shooting 37% from the field, and Fred Hoiberg for much of the game.

The reason Marcus Fizer scored so well off the bench? Rose got him the ball. Rose never had a problem passing to Fizer who could score. Marshall scored frequently at the start of the season. Why? Rose got him the ball. 

As Eddy saw more floor time, Tyson gained his confidence and played more minutes and Jay and Jamal got out of their respective slumps Rose took fewer shots. Rose got the Bigs involved. 

Why is everone assuming that he is going to regress to the player who was stuck on the court w/ Hassell and Blount and not proceed to be the player who played within the system? No one is giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying that the April Rose and the last season Rose is the one we'll get next year. So before seeing what happens you want to dump him for a **** player as a preventive strike. 

Personally, I'd like the Bulls to make the play-offs.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

:whatever:


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> :whatever:


Well....when you put it that way...


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

On a related yet unrelated note,

If Jalen Rose is here to stay next season, he needs to be shown where the weights are at the Berto Center and actually use them this summer. He really needs to work on his body. Look at how Matt Harpring has become the past 2 seasons. He has half the quickness and speed of Jalen, but is twice the defender. Much of this can be contributed to work Matt has done in the weight room, changing from a stick to someone who uses his body extremely well on O and D.

The guy is making max dollars, so yes it is reasonable to request such a thing. Do the work Jalen.




VD


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## jnrjr79 (Apr 18, 2003)

I also don't see a necessity to dump Jalen, but I do think he, Pax, and Coach Bill need to come to a meeting of the minds about the role he is going to play on this team next year, and further down the line (if applicable). Rose is at his best when coming off of screens and choosing his shots properly. It's understandable that he has developed some bad shooting habits, after being pushed into "the man" role here, and for a period of time not really having many people to take the scoring burden off of him. However, w/the emergence of EC, Jamal, etc., the hope should be that he can concentrate on creating for himself less and creating for others more. He is a very good shooter, but his problem is that he doesn't have the athletic ability to work off the dribble to create separation for good looks (as Jamal has demonstrated an ability to do well). This is why his end-of-game isolated shots have often been so poor. 
Bottom line, if Jalen is willing to be a 16 point per game scorer, work harder on D, and trust his teammates, I don't think that there will be many trades for him that would improve this team. However, that may be a big "if". I don't know to what extent, after having been the clear-cut team and offensive leader, that Jalen will be able to let his offensive role be diminished. If he comes at it with some humility and a team-oriented mentality, I think he could be a very effective player, and provide good leadership which these kids sorely need.
And last but not least, the continual yapping at the officials after Jalen has been "fouled" has got to stop. He's not getting back on defense and the 5 on 4 situations are really bothersome to watch.


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## Lizzy (May 28, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jnrjr79</b>!
> And last but not least, the continual yapping at the officials after Jalen has been "fouled" has got to stop. He's not getting back on defense and the 5 on 4 situations are really bothersome to watch.


I completely agree. This has become a league wide problem (Jalen being one of the worst offenders) and it makes the NBA a pain to watch. 

The low point for me came during the Lakers/Portland game when the announcers said that Portland was getting out of hand w/ their complaining and that it was ok for the Lakers to complain because they did it while they ran down the court. Like one team can be better complainers than other teams. What has the NBA come to? You can't high five a bacjboard in good fun but you can scream after every call.

Some Laker fan once told me it was ok for the Lakers to complain b/c they smiled while theye did it.

It needs to stop everywhere. It's annoying.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vin Diesel</b>!
> On a related yet unrelated note,
> 
> If Jalen Rose is here to stay next season, he needs to be shown where the weights are at the Berto Center and actually use them this summer. He really needs to work on his body. Look at how Matt Harpring has become the past 2 seasons. He has half the quickness and speed of Jalen, but is twice the defender. Much of this can be contributed to work Matt has done in the weight room, changing from a stick to someone who uses his body extremely well on O and D.
> ...



I agree wholeheartedly. Jalen looks like he has never seen a weight in his life and his game could really improve dramatically with a little strength training.


btw, I have to agree with Lizzy on trading Rose for Thomas, she has won me over.


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## InPaxWeTrust (Sep 16, 2002)

Oh ACE I thought you were on my side on this one. Trade Rose for Thomas. Then trade Jay and ERob for Maggette.


JC
Maggette
Thomas
Chandler
Curry


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## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> > Originally posted by Vin Diesel!
> ...


Ace, where were you and Vin Diesel when I was practically getting run off the board for daring to suggest Jalen might want to work on his body some in the off season?

Jalen leadership thread


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>basghetti80</b>!
> Oh ACE I thought you were on my side on this one. Trade Rose for Thomas. Then trade Jay and ERob for Maggette.
> 
> 
> ...


I WAS for a trade for Redd & Thomas, but no way would I deal Rose merely for the underachieving and overpaid Thomas.

Also, Why would we trade Jay for Maggete? He's a free agent lol!


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> 
> I agree wholeheartedly. Jalen looks like he has never seen a weight in his life and his game could really improve dramatically with a little strength training.


Ace, where were you and Vin Diesel when I was practically getting run off the board for daring to suggest Jalen might want to work on his body some in the off season?

Jalen leadership thread [/QUOTE]

I don't know but I am definitley in agreement. Rose needs to get his chicken arms and legs into the gym pronto! I doubt he will though if he hasn't this far into his pro career.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> Ace, where were you and Vin Diesel when I was practically getting run off the board for daring to suggest Jalen might want to work on his body some in the off season?
> 
> Jalen leadership thread


My bad Kneepad. For some reason, I didn't post on that thread or read it too closely for that matter.

Jalen is the leader of this young team (for now) and is the highest paid player on the team, and will be even if Curry or Chandler receive max deals in 2 years time (vet max contracts are higher per year than that of those coming off rookie ones).

So Jalen needs to absolutely lead by example this summer. He had a nice statistical year, but there is room for improvement. Shot selection, shooting percentage, being more physical on defense are places to start.





VD


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kneepad</b>!
> 
> Ace, where were you and Vin Diesel when I was practically getting run off the board for daring to suggest Jalen might want to work on his body some in the off season?
> 
> Jalen leadership thread


IMHO, the best move that Pax has made so far is asking Rose to be more accountable. Rose should be in the weight room all summer just like Pippen and MJ also are\were.

As far as the earlier thread, Kneepad, you were so convincing that I didn't feel like you needed any more ammo on your side of the arguement.


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## Sicky Dimpkins (May 28, 2002)

Jalen Rose for free

I think he's a Bull for better or worse. :laugh:


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