# Story: "It's Hard To Prove" Non-Consensual Sex



## Ron (May 8, 2002)

Interesting takes in this story:

http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2003/0718/1582818.html


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## ltrain99 (Apr 27, 2003)

yup, thats y this case could go years, it might definitely come down to he said she said.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

If there is physical evidence like torn clothing & bruises coupled with the reports of a woman screams for help coming from his room, and the medical tests reveal vaginal tearing consistent with rape, the DA's case gains a whole lot of weight. His and her composure and believability on the stand (he said/she said) could be the big factors with the jury as well, but (IMO) the amount of physical evidence is more important in determining his guilt then anything else.

STOMP


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Another reason for possible vaginal tears could be that Kobe and her were just having really aggressive, rough sex.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Not really... from my understanding (my Dad's a Dr), females who are raped endure much more tearing of tissue because they don't secrete the fluids they would if they were into it. Rough sex may produce some tearing, but not nearly to the same level. It is evidence that is commonly accepted in court as legitimate proof of rape.

STOMP


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## Kyle (Jul 1, 2003)

So when you rape someone it's a different type of sex? You do different things to rape the tissue that you wouldn't do in regular sex?

I strongly disagree.


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## Cam*Ron (Apr 13, 2003)

No if a female is having sex and she is in to it, she will get "wet"
but if she is getting rape most chances are she won't be into it.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

I'm sure there are all kinds of precedents out there to differentiate rape from "rough sex." STOMP's posts seem to bear this out...


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

I saw something on Kobe on foxnews.

The summary is like this:

There can be consensual sex where there is tearing and brusing.

There can also be non-consensual sex where there is no tearing and no brusing at at.

So you can't tell either way from that alone.

It will come down to words


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>KennethTo</b>!
> I saw something on Kobe on foxnews.
> 
> The summary is like this:
> ...


Exactly. It's going to just be his word against hers, and that isn't enough to convict him.


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## Spartacus Triumvirate (Jan 30, 2003)

I'm almost in disbelief reading some of this nonsense in these threads. With this logic, woman might as well put a welcome sign on because rape would be virtually impossible to prove. And barring the unlikey rape spectator, woman would apparently have no chance of proving rape in Los Angeles based upon the opinions expressed within.

First off, he said - she said is not what the DA has said. The DA's office is making it clear this IS NOT a HE SAID - SHE SAID.

Secondly, while its nice to try to "cover" for Kobe when he said he wouldn't do "something like that" its pure and utter naivety to try to defend it now. If that isn't Clinton-esque I don't know what is. Laker fans, Kobe fans, NBA fans and the media ought to be outraged that Kobe played them for fools. Noone was admitting Kobe had sex until it was clear he would be charged. Think Kobe at the ESPYs. 

Third, thank goodness you have folks like STOMP and FORK who understand there is more to life than Laker basketball and hero worship. You should be grateful that they can help you get a realistic grip on this and get some real life perspective. Kobe Bryant is a worldly 24 year old. Raised in a foreign country, a multi-millionaire. A professional who has performed at the highest level on a national platform and has endured the intense national media focus while doing so. And you contrast that with a friend of the victim appearing on network news shows. The friend has absolutely no saavy, doesn't know how to act or what to say and is showing us all exactly what a nineteen year old looks and acts like. Knowing the victim likely shares this friends qualities, you have no problem at all making false accusations against the victim, slandering the victim, and modifying Kobe's story to make it more palatable to the current standing of his legal woes. Have you no shame? Exactly who should be in command of this situation? Who is the experienced person? Who should be making the good judgements here? My goodness how hero worship can make one so blind.

Fourth, I find it remarkable that nobody here can address how this woman even makes it to Kobe's room much less finds herself there with him alone. Your own Laker sideline reporter is on record saying Bryant never has less than 2 bodyguards with him on the road and never stays using his own name. Even if we assume its no problem for the woman to obtain his room and identity, exactly where are these bodyguards? How is it she gets past them to even get to Bryant, much less get to him alone? And if she does get to him whose fault is that? You are quick to assume that rape is fair game for her going up to his room late at night and alone. If thats the logic you want to apply, then it would be equally right to assume he deserves to be where he's currently at - with a shattered life - for letting her up to his room late at night and alone.

Fifth, its just astonishing that folks are finding it so difficult to believe Kobe would do something like this. Its very clear now that Bryant was always aloof. Even reporters are admitting they know little to nothing about what Kobe is really like. Much to my shock, even Mike Kahn over at CBS Sportsline is having difficulty with this and I know of noone who likes to defend the Lakers like Kahn. Yet, this is rejected by the fans who apparently know him much better than the media that has followed him for what, seven years? I mean, Kobe's hawking Nike, Sprite, McDonalds and hell he's a great player he couldn't do something like this right? Right. And the president of the United States wouldn't have sex with an intern, right? Open up your minds ladies and gentleman. If you did you might begin to understand what the victim is up against here. Yet, against what will be an onslaught of dirt, innuendo, and accusation this person is apparently unwavering in what occurred as communicated by the DA. At the very least you should be praising her for having the fortitude to stand up for herself IF her story is true. 

I could go on and on and try to convince you but I'll simply say Enlightenment my friends. Catch it. The world will be a better place for all of us.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

You'd make a lousy juror. Your entire post (ad nauseum) does not make a single point in Kobe's favor.

Perhaps if your were unbiased in your analysis I would put more credence in the points you are trying to make.

P.S. Lose the patronizing at the end. It's a turn-off.


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## CoolHandLuke (Jun 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Ron</b>!
> You'd make a lousy juror. Your entire post (ad nauseum) does not make a single point in Kobe's favor.
> 
> Perhaps if your were unbiased in your analysis I would put more credence in the points you are trying to make.
> ...



Why should he have to be unbiased? You're not. And when did he say he would make a good juror? How about YOU reply with some points in Kobe's favor, rather than telling him that since he didn't, his post isn't valid.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>CoolHandLuke</b>!
> Why should he have to be unbiased? You're not. And when did he say he would make a good juror? How about YOU reply with some points in Kobe's favor, rather than telling him that since he didn't, his post isn't valid.


He doesn't have to be unbiased. I'm just saying that he is, and the context of his post needs to be viewed in that light.

He didn't say he would make a good juror. That's my opinion that he would not make a good juror, and the reason for that is he already has made up his mind. Just the same, I would also make a lousy juror in this particular case. Happy, now? 

I don't need to make any points in Kobe's favor. I don't necessarily believe that he has been entirely truthful. I'm just making a point that someone who posts so thoughtfully on a subject should provide all points of view...if he wants to be accepted as unbiased. If he doesn't give a rip, then so be it...but he better be prepared for opposing points of view and for criticism.

I'm sure he appreciates you standing up for him.


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## Spartacus Triumvirate (Jan 30, 2003)

Actually, yes, thanks CoolHandLuke.

It seems pretty obvious there isn't much need for me to defend Kobe at this point. It appears the media in general along with this board has that pretty well covered wouldn't you say? 

My post isn't meant to be a case for the victim. My post is meant to drive home the point that this case can not be dismissed by fans simply because the accused is Kobe Bryant and the victim is therefore a "Liar".

Now, don't get me wrong - after reading some of the childish logic here in defense of Kobe and smearing the victim, I'd certainly understand why you would appreciate having the thoughtful posters come out on his side in their posts as well. Who wouldn't? 

You yourself posted a story that went directly to Kobe's credibility from MSNBC. Therefore, I would almost expect that you would help elevate the conversation here and make the less enlightened posters more enlightened.

I can see many hypothetical situations here were Kobe Bryant is innocent of what occurred. I could very easily see a case for buyers remorse for a number of compelling reasons not the least of which could be racial. However, while I wouldn't dismiss the gold digger angle I don't believe thats what happened here. All said, I would agree with the the talking head on Fox who said at the very least, Kobe is an "Egregious Moron" for putting himself in this situation.


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## Bigballershotcaller (Apr 25, 2003)

who knows she may have had sex afterwards and now blames kobe to get some cheddar fro mhim


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Spartacus Triumvirate</b>!
> I would agree with the the talking head on Fox who said at the very least, Kobe is an "Egregious Moron" for putting himself in this situation.


"Blithering Idiot" seems more appropriate along with my line of thinking. We agree on something.

And if you have been around for any length of time, you *know* I want the level of conversation elevated. I've said so for many moons.

I appreciate your thoughtful posts, believe me. Don't be upset if I point out that the one in this thread, at least, seemed totally one-sided, because it was. I haven't had a chance to read the ones in the "accuser attempted suicide" thread yet, but here's hoping you are now looking at that potential pitfall for the prosecution with an open mind.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Spartacus Triumvirate</b>!
> I'm almost in disbelief reading some of this nonsense in these threads. With this logic, woman might as well put a welcome sign on because rape would be virtually impossible to prove. And barring the unlikey rape spectator, woman would apparently have no chance of proving rape in Los Angeles based upon the opinions expressed within.


I agree there's a lot of nonsense in this board regarding the Kobe Bryant situation. Mainly because there's little information and people are jumping the gun.

Nevertheless, some of the arguments posted are valid.

One thing is undisputed: Kobe and the girld had sex: wether it was consentual or rape has yet to be proved. Even if it was consentual, Kobe should have known better.

One thing bothers my mind: for what i hear, the girl's verson is something like "he was being sweet and polite and then he lost his mind and raped me" - it sounds a bit fishy to me.
Did she ever made clear why she went in his room?

Botoom line: just waiting for more info.
If phisical evidences corroborate the repe version... well, he probably did it.


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## INDY (Jul 11, 2003)

Thank you for giving this conversation the perspective it needed Spartacus. Although, I think that based on the logic (or lack of it) displayed by these hero woshippers, there is no point in trying to open their eyes to what is really going on here.

They've been indoctrinated with countless images of Kobe Bryant eating Big Macs with kids, making eloquent championship victory speeches in front of 100,000 screaming Lakers fans, and flashing that big sweet smile after downing a bottle of Sprite.

They will immediately think of the young kid that they saw grow up in front of their eyes and mature into the man that would entertain them for hours on end through his 360 dunks, crossover dribbles, and spectacular shooting displays. How many times have we all seen that lob he gave to Shaq to complete a comeback in game 7 of the Western Conference Finals against Portland?

We have been reminded of his greatness on a consistent basis over the past six years. How can you expect these people, the fans that he has created through his excellent "family oriented" behaviour off the court and his stunning performance on it, to all of the sudden realize that they in fact, do not know this man that has been in their living rooms countless times and never failed to make them proud? 

How can you expect them to realize that a finely polished TV commercial, or a one minute soundbite on ESPN, or a 48 minute well played basketball game-- do not make a man great? 

Only a wise and objective person would be able to realize that it is not what an individual does while others are watching that makes him great, but what he does when no one else is around 
that makes him truly great. How can you expect them to realize that life is not a soundbite, nor a handsome smile, nor a gutty athletic performance?

Indoctrination breeds neither wisdom nor objectivity.

Our 48 minute heroes are as fallible as the next man but with more opportunities to do evil. They fall by the wayside despite their on field greatness. Magic got AIDS, Pete Rose sold out his team, OJ took his children's mother from them. These men are Demi-Gods, able to perform on a superhuman level but still flawed and mortal like the common man. 

Don't forget that Kobe is a man and is inclined to do evil as much as anyone else.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

You make a lot of hay over how us "hero worshippers"  see Kobe only in one light, yet you give no quarter in regards to your opinion. If you had it your way, we would dispense with a trial and go straight to the gallows. It is clear you cannot be unbiased in this discussion.

You still haven't addressed my earlier question. Where are people denigrating the alleged victim?


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>INDY</b>!
> Thank you for giving this conversation the perspective it needed Spartacus. Although, I think that based on the logic (or lack of it) displayed by these hero woshippers, there is no point in trying to open their eyes to what is really going on here.
> 
> They've been indoctrinated with countless images of Kobe Bryant eating Big Macs with kids, making eloquent championship victory speeches in front of 100,000 screaming Lakers fans, and flashing that big sweet smile after downing a bottle of Sprite.
> ...


My "hero" growing up was Mike Tyson. I idolized him. But personally I never felt the need to defend his character or his actions outside of the ring because I didn't care. He was a bad *** boxer and that is all I cared about. Same thing for Kobe. I do defend him when some people hate him for silly things like sweating in his commercials or smiling after dunks when they really hate him because his team is better than theirs but if he commited rape I wouldn't defend him. I would still hope he didn't go to jail because he is damn fun to watch.


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## INDY (Jul 11, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ron</b>!
> If you had it your way, we would dispense with a trial and go straight to the gallows.


Please, do not put words in my mouth. 

I would like to see a fair trial free of press leaks, character assasinations, and tales of past problems unrelated to the case.

I would like Kobe Bryant fans to realize that there is a 19 year old woman that believes she was raped and this is far more important than their desire to see Kobe make it to the court in time for the beginning of the season.

I would like to clear up the minds of those clouded by their devotion to their imaginary friend Kobe Bryant. Some people will get it, some won't.


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## Coyat (Jun 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>INDY</b>!
> Thank you for giving this conversation the perspective it needed Spartacus. Although, I think that based on the logic (or lack of it) displayed by these hero woshippers, there is no point in trying to open their eyes to what is really going on here.
> 
> They've been indoctrinated with countless images of Kobe Bryant eating Big Macs with kids, making eloquent championship victory speeches in front of 100,000 screaming Lakers fans, and flashing that big sweet smile after downing a bottle of Sprite.
> ...


You make it sound like it is wrong for a person to like an athlete and make him a 'hero' because of his/her greatness in their respected sport. Now, I'm sorry if I offend you in any shape or form in my post, because I'm really not trying to.

I never understood why people were against seeing an image of an athlete in all the ads (a la Kobe in his McD, Sprite, etc ad) and thinking him of 'more than human'. Now of course, marketing people do this for the sake of selling their product. They take an athlete, such as Kobe, who has shined in the spotlight, and use that image to market whatever their selling. Little kids may see this and become fans of that athlete. (I know I am a victim of this because that is how I became intoduced Jordan.. the Hanes ads...  Ok, I'm kidding.. it was Jordan's Gatorade catch 'Like Mike' songs  ) Anyway, is it wrong to have people 'idolize' their favorite athlete for what they do on their respected sport?



> Only a wise and objective person would be able to realize that it is not what an individual does while others are watching that makes him great, but what he does when no one else is around
> that makes him truly great. How can you expect them to realize that life is not a soundbite, nor a handsome smile, nor a gutty athletic performance?


I have to disagree here on this. I believe what an athlete does ON the court/field (or in their respected sport) makes them great. When Kobe and Shaq led the Lakers comeback against the Blazers in that WCF Game 7 game, that made them great players. When Jordan made that incredible shot agains Russel in the 1998 NBA Finals, Jordan solidified his greatness. I could make numerous other examples, but I think you may understand where I am getting at. 

I always believed that athletes should be judged by what they do in their sport. They shouldn't and if anything be separately judged by what they do OFF the court/field. Kobe is one of the best on the court no doubt. This incident can't and shouldn't take anything away from that. 

However, commiting adultery is a horrible sin.. one that he should be horrified to have commited. But, we as fans shouldn't be pointing fingers and casting stones where we have also made mistakes and most likely sinned. Have we made dumb mistakes? Of course. But we really shouldn't be diving into a celebrities life and judging them. Thats why I fell sympathetic in a way to the celebrities that get burned by the media and tabloids.


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>INDY</b>!
> Thank you for giving this conversation the perspective it needed Spartacus. ............
> 
> Our 48 minute heroes are as fallible as the next man but with more opportunities to do evil. They fall by the wayside despite their on field greatness. Magic got AIDS, Pete Rose sold out his team, <b>OJ took his children's mother from them.</b> These men are Demi-Gods, able to perform on a superhuman level but still flawed and mortal like the common man.
> ...


For someone who speaks about justice for both sides, a criminal court of 12 jurors found OJ not guilty. So your other good points get muddied by unnecessary judging of what was already judged by jurors who had all of the evidence before them.

So in effect, you are doing EXACTLY what you have chastised many of these posters for doing.


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## Spartacus Triumvirate (Jan 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>INDY</b>!
> Only a wise and objective person would be able to realize that it is not what an individual does while others are watching that makes him great, but what he does when no one else is around
> that makes him truly great.


You are correct Indy. A wise person would not interpret this statement literally, they would see it for what it truly means. While Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant may do extraordinary things on the court, it is what they do when the bright lights are not shining on them that really matter. Helping underprivileged children, sick children in the hospital, creating and funding foundations, etc. The type of stuff that all too often goes unnoticed.


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