# Biggest busts ever (non big men)



## gi0rdun

It seems like all the busts are big men like Stromile Swift, Olowakandi, Kwame Brown, Darko etc., Can anyone name some non big-men busts?


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## RSP83

I'm gonna go as early as 1991 when I first really pay attention to NBA draft. The top non-big man busts are:

Adam Morrison at #3 in 2006 and Antonio Daniels at #4 in 1997

There are others who got picked very high but never become anything because of injuries and accident:
- Jay Williams #2 in 2002
- Shaun Livingston #4 in 2004
- Dajuan Wagner #6 in 2002 (the hype surrounding him was crazy back in 2002)


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## Kidd

Christian Laettner, Rafael Arujo... can't think of any non-big men though.

EDIT: Darius Miles?


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## OneBadLT123

Harold Minor


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## Hyperion

Richard Dumas snorted all of his talent up his nose. Jay Williams sucked it up and then ruined his career


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## Damian Necronamous

Len Bias


Too soon?


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## Spaceman Spiff

Sebastian Telfair. How many picks had their own documentary by the time the draft came around!?

Ed O'Bannon
Ndubi Ebi


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## GNG

Bobby Hurley
Ed O'Bannon
Harold Minor
Adam Morrison


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## kflo

miner was the 12th pick. people think because he was called baby jordan he was this can't miss prospect. he wasn't. he scored alot in college, and was a good dunker.


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## E.H. Munro

Yeah, he was pretty much a one trick pony in college. Really, it's hard to call mid or late first round picks "busts" if they don't pan out. By then it's all a crap shoot anyways.


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## GNG

kflo said:


> miner was the 12th pick. people think because he was called baby jordan he was this can't miss prospect. he wasn't. he scored alot in college, and was a good dunker.


Meh, he was taken in the lottery and was out of the league by the time he was 25 years old.

You're right, not one of the biggest busts ever, but if we're limiting the conversation to guards and swingmen, he's at least in the conversation, within the last 15-20 years


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## HB

Gerald Green supposedly VC-Tmac part deux


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## LionOfJudah

HB said:


> Gerald Green supposedly VC-Tmac part deux


He wasn't taken in the lottery nor is he out of the league yet. 


Anyway, how about... Courtney Alexander and Mateen Cleaves from the 2000 draft. Reece Gaines of the 2003 draft. 2004, Sebastian Telfair since he probably had more hype (at least on this board) than any of the others I mentioned.


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## GNG

Troy Bell was the pick right after Reece Gaines in 2003 and lasted all of 34 _minutes _before his career was over.


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## E.H. Munro

Cinco de Mayo said:


> Troy Bell was the pick right after Reece Gaines in 2003 and lasted all of 34 _minutes _before his career was over.


I was shocked when he got picked. If he'd left college after his sophomore season he might have had a decent career as a backup PG in the NBA. By the time Memphis drafted him he was coming off his 17th knee injury or so. When a 22 year old is spending his time on the bench with ice packs strapped to his knees you'd think it would be a huge red flag.


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## jalen5

I'm gonna go back all the way to 1995 and say Shawn Respert out of Michigan State...he was taken top 10 and didn't last very long in the NBA.

Also, Ron Mercer...Joe Forte, although he was taken't in lottery..also, a couple of guys from that horrible 2000 draft come to mind in DerMarr Johnson from Cincinnati and Darius Miles.


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## roux

Shawn Respert was secretly battling cancer, he doesnt deserve the hate for that alone... after this year we can start talking about Yi the bust


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## jalen5

roux2dope said:


> Shawn Respert was secretly battling cancer, he doesnt deserve the hate for that alone... after this year we can start talking about Yi the bust


Oh, my bad, I think I heard that before about Respert but didn't recall that when I posted. Thanks, now I feel like a douche.


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## roux

jalen5 said:


> Oh, my bad, I think I heard that before about Respert but didn't recall that when I posted. Thanks, now I feel like a douche.


all good, I was bitter about respert for a long time, he didnt come out about the cancer until a couple of years ago so until then i thought the same thing, to consider that we trade the shaq of the mac for him, it didnt end up hurting us too bad


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## Dornado

Jay Williams might have been good... he struggled a tad in his rookie year, but was respectable over all... he dropped a triple double on Jason Kidd (back when he was Jason Kidd) where he just took control of the whole game.

I guess we'll never know... but it is almost like calling Len Bias a bust, since he just never had the chance.


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## roux

Dornado said:


> Jay Williams might have been good... he struggled a tad in his rookie year, but was respectable over all... he dropped a triple double on Jason Kidd (back when he was Jason Kidd) where he just took control of the whole game.
> 
> I guess we'll never know... but it is almost like calling Len Bias a bust, since he just never had the chance.


Does Bobby Hurley not qualify then?


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## Nimreitz

Clearly Adam Morrison. I really don't think there's an argument here. He went THIRD!!!


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## gi0rdun

Can we play Adam Morrison on the diabetes? :S


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## bandits1

roux2dope said:


> Does Bobby Hurley not qualify then?


I still think Hurley could've been a decent PG if he didn't almost die in that car accident.









...and, damn, I was collecting his now worthless rookie cards. =(


I remember Mark Macon being _very_ highly touted coming out of college.


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## Spaceman Spiff

That 2000 draft was awful.

Matteen Cleaves, Demarr Johnson, and Courtney Alexander were all lotto picks.


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## hobojoe

jalen5 said:


> I'm gonna go back all the way to 1995 and say Shawn Respert out of Michigan State...he was taken top 10 and didn't last very long in the NBA.
> 
> Also, Ron Mercer...Joe Forte, although he was taken't in lottery..also, a couple of guys from that horrible 2000 draft come to mind in DerMarr Johnson from Cincinnati and Darius Miles.


Mercer doesn't belong in this list. He certainly wasn't a good pick, but he was an ok NBA player for a while. Didn't he average like 20 ppg for a season? 20 ppg in the NBA as the 6th pick can not be one of the biggest draft busts.


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## jalen5

hobojoe said:


> Mercer doesn't belong in this list. He certainly wasn't a good pick, but he was an ok NBA player for a while. Didn't he average like 20 ppg for a season? 20 ppg in the NBA as the 6th pick can not be one of the biggest draft busts.


I kind of agree with you. However, I just threw him out there for a couple of reason:

1) The original poster specifically said "non big men" and, compared to big men busts, there just aren't many guards. The list is pretty short actually if you are only including guys drafted in the top 10...especially thin if you take out those who did not meet expectations due to health/injury like cancer or a vehicular accident.

2) Mercer did have like 5 or 6 decent years in terms of PPG production. However, that was all he did and even that was on terrible teams. 4 of those years were with young and not good Boston and Chicago teams. Didn't really impress me.

3) Expectations were REALLY high for him. Unlike Billups, who was drafted in the same year by Boston as well, Mercer never reached star status on any team. He basically disappeared after his Chicago stint. He might not be in the total bust category, but, IMO, did not come close to meeting the lofty expectations.


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## Da Grinch

bo kimble


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## RSP83

Oh... and Dennis Hopson. He's the 3rd pick of the 1987 draft. Picked ahead of guys like Scottie Pippen, Kevin Johnson, Reggie Miller, Reggie Lewis, Mark Jackson, Horace Grant, etc.

His career average isn't really that bad considering he averaged more than 12 ppg during his three years with the Nets. But after his 1 year stint with the Bulls in 1991-1992 (won chip with them), he just disappeared.

Another non-bigman who I think is a bust was Billy Owens, 3rd pick of 1991 draft. The 1991 draft wasn't that strong. Owens career number was actually OK. But I consider him a bust because of his hype coming out of college and the fact that the Warriors traded rising star, high scoring guard Mitch Richmond straight up for him. Owens basically broke up the "Run TMC", one of my favorite team to watch growing up. Damn... I still hate it to this day that they ship out Richmond for him.


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## jericho

Keeping it to PGs, SGs and SFs who were top 5 selections, and ruling out those whose careers clearly were derailed by injury, illness, overdoses, etc. (since we can only speculate about how good they would otherwise have been)...

Adam Morrison (2006)
Nikoloz Tskitishvili (2002)
Darius Miles (2000)
Jonathan Bender (1999)
Chris Morris (1988)
Danny Vranes (1981)
James Ray (1980)
Wally Walker (1976)
Fred Boyd (1972)
Ken Durett, George Trapp (1971)

All of these are players who stayed healthy at least long enough to demonstrate that they weren't legit NBA starters worthy of a top 5 pick.


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## The Truth

briaN37 said:


> Christian Laettner, Rafael Arujo... can't think of any non-big men though.
> 
> EDIT: Darius Miles?


Laettner didn't live up to the college hype, but you can hardly call him a bust (especially compared to most of the other guys in this thread). He had a 13 year career, was at one point an all-star, and averaged 13+ points over his career.


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## Najee

I don't believe we literally mean "ever," given the many variables involved in the history of the NBA. Moreover, it doesn't make sense for me to name players I've never seen play. 

I'm going to choose players I've seen play, going back the ABA-NBA merger. Here are my criteria:

* a top-10 player projected as a PG, SG or SF in the NBA.

* guys who, quite frankly, looked overwhelmed playing in the NBA and/or were questionable choices from the beginning who played poorly.

* guys who were drafted before the 2006 draft (I feel it's a little early to evaluate those guys fully).

*1980s:*

James Ray (1980)
Danny Vranes (1981)
Lancaster Gordon (1984)
Brad Sellers (1986)
Danny Ferry (1989)

*1990s:*

Bo Kimble (1990)
Mark Macon (1991)
Bobby Hurley (1993)
Ed O'Bannon (1995)
Shawn Respert (1995)

*2000s:*

DeMarr Johnson (2000)
Rodney White (2001)
Eddie Griffin (2001)
Jay Williams (2002)
DeJuan Wagner (2002)
Shawn Livingston (2004)
Luke Jackson (2004)
Martell Webster (2005)

As you can see I have some players who suffered major injuries (Jay Williams and Bobby Hurley), but I'm not basing their ranking on their injuries. Hurley simply looked overmatched when I saw him as a rookie and Williams struggled mightily in his one season. 

I'm well aware of Shawn Respert's health issues that he disclosed a few years ago, but he was a 6-1 shooting guard who couldn't convert to point guard. He simply didn't show the skill to be a decent NBA player.


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## BlueBaron

Nobody's mentioned Kenny Walker? I'm surprised.


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## Najee

I forgot to mention Kenny Walker (1986), who should have been on my list.


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## jokeaward

William Avery went 14th but, man, what a bust.

FRAN VAZQUEZ... big but had to mention it
Yaroslav Korolev 
Luke Jackson
Skita
Kedrick Brown

You know I might have to give it to Korolev. Vazquez... no money taken, right? And he was gonna go about that time. Korolev was a WTF moment and must have taken millions for his few years.


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## Hyperion

The Truth said:


> Laettner didn't live up to the college hype, but you can hardly call him a bust (especially compared to most of the other guys in this thread). He had a 13 year career, was at one point an all-star, and averaged 13+ points over his career.


He was on the original Dream Team. He's a bust.


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## Spaceman Spiff

jericho said:


> Keeping it to PGs, SGs and SFs who were top 5 selections, and ruling out those whose careers clearly were derailed by injury, illness, overdoses, etc. (since we can only speculate about how good they would otherwise have been)...
> 
> Adam Morrison (2006)
> Nikoloz Tskitishvili (2002)
> Darius Miles (2000)
> Jonathan Bender (1999)
> Chris Morris (1988)
> Danny Vranes (1981)
> James Ray (1980)
> Wally Walker (1976)
> Fred Boyd (1972)
> Ken Durett, George Trapp (1971)
> 
> All of these are players who stayed healthy at least long enough to demonstrate that they weren't legit NBA starters worthy of a top 5 pick.


I think Bender would go under the injured category. He always had knee issues.

I for got about Skittlesvilli. That dude sucked more than Olivia O'Lovely.


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## Dornado

Najee said:


> As you can see I have some players who suffered major injuries (Jay Williams and Bobby Hurley), but I'm not basing their ranking on their injuries. Hurley simply looked overmatched when I saw him as a rookie and Williams struggled mightily in his one season.
> 
> I'm well aware of Shawn Respert's health issues that he disclosed a few years ago, but he was a 6-1 shooting guard who couldn't convert to point guard. He simply didn't show the skill to be a decent NBA player.


I think people overplay Jay Williams struggles as a rookie:

Jay Williams: 26 mpg 9.5 ppg 4.7 apg 2.6 rpg 39% fg

Deron Williams: 28.8 mpg 10.8 ppg 4.5 apg 2.4rpg 42% fg

Gary Payton: 27 mpg 7.2 ppg 6.4 apg 3 rpg 45% fg

etc... PG is one of the more difficult positions for a rookie to play, guys like Nash and Payton turned out alright, I think it is fair to say that Jay Williams still had a chance.


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## Spaceman Spiff

Jay Williams was Derrick Rose before Derrick Rose. I have no doubts he would have been a solid 18 and 8 PG in the league.


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## someone

Stay Away From Motorcycles Rose


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## bandits1

Hyperion said:


> He was on the original Dream Team. He's a bust.


Yeah, but he went as the sole NCAA representative in the last Olympics the USA still bothered putting college players on the team. That shouldn't count against him. He had a decent career, a little underwhelming, but certainly not a "bust".


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## Najee

Dornado said:


> I think people overplay Jay Williams struggles as a rookie:
> 
> Jay Williams: 26 mpg 9.5 ppg 4.7 apg 2.6 rpg 39% fg
> 
> Deron Williams: 28.8 mpg 10.8 ppg 4.5 apg 2.4rpg 42% fg
> 
> Gary Payton: 27 mpg 7.2 ppg 6.4 apg 3 rpg 45% fg
> 
> etc... PG is one of the more difficult positions for a rookie to play, guys like Nash and Payton turned out alright, I think it is fair to say that Jay Williams still had a chance.


The problem is that Jay Williams' rookie season was his BEST NBA season, and even that was underwhelming. 

People need to keep in mind that Jay Williams' strengths were supposed to be as an offensive player, and he struggled shooting the ball and setting up other teammates. Look at his numbers: .399 FG%, .322 3P% and .640 FT%. 

It's a joke to compare Jay Williams to Deron Williams and Gary Payton in those respects, because of the three he was supposed to have had the best offensive skills. Instead, he was the WORST of the three in comparative rookie years (it's fair to say Jay Williams was the worst defender of the three at that stage).

Jay Williams was also on a horrible Bulls team and couldn't muster more minutes from a ball-hogging, questionable-shooting Jamal Crawford (who could have moved to the shooting guard position if Jay Williams showed more progress). Comparatively, Deron Williams and Payton were on stronger teams and were integrated into an established team more slowly.

Jay Williams also was a bit of a headache in the locker room and he bought and rode a motorcycle knowing it was against his contract (shortly before his accident, Williams said on an ESPN profile "forget them" when asked did Bulls management know he bought a motorcyle and was riding it regularly). Jay Williams' career ended because of his own stupidity and arrogance (which seemed to continue even after what was a poor rookie season), hence the bust label.


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## Najee

bandits1 said:


> Yeah, but he went as the sole NCAA representative in the last Olympics the USA still bothered putting college players on the team. That shouldn't count against him. He had a decent career, a little underwhelming, but certainly not a "bust".


Christian Laettner was on the original Dream Team because he was the best player in college basketball -- it was not as some affirmation of his NBA potential. If that was the case, Shaquille O'Neal would have been the clear choice.

Not only was Laettner not a bust (not to mention he was a power forward, so his name shouldn't even be mentioned here), but his career wasn't "underwhelming." People forget that Laettner ripped up his Achilles' tendon shortly after getting to Detroit in the '99 lockout season, which limited his mobility. Before that, Laettner was good for 17 points and 8 rebounds per game in the first half of his career.

Even with the injury, he pretty much had the career that was projected -- namely, a solid player with an extended career. Had he become something like a perennial all-star would have been slightly ahead of his projected potential -- even in college, you could tell his lack of strength and elite athleticism gave him trouble against the likes of Shaq and Chris Webber. 

It sounds like some of you think that just because Laettner was on the original Dream Team that meant he automatically was going to be some perennial all-star. That never was the case.


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## E.H. Munro

John Bagley had a pretty big rack.


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## Najee

Spaceman Spiff said:


> Jay Williams was Derrick Rose before Derrick Rose. I have no doubts he would have been a solid 18 and 8 PG in the league.


That is a compliment to Derrick Rose's and Jay Williams' college careers, but that's an absolute insult to Rose's NBA rookie season. Jay Williams was one of the worst rookie point guards practically guaranteed starter's minutes in 30 years (and that's not hypoerbole -- I pulled out comparable stats of rookie point guards in his situation on a thread a year or so ago and his numbers came out as the worst).


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## GNG

Spaceman Spiff said:


> Jay Williams was Derrick Rose before Derrick Rose. I have no doubts he would have been a solid 18 and 8 PG in the league.


I wish he'd have stayed healthy to prove you wrong. Outside of that triple-double on Jason Kidd, he had a pretty underwhelming rookie campaign. He was all over the map.

Completely inferior player to Derrick Rose.


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## MLKG

Spaceman Spiff said:


> That 2000 draft was awful.
> 
> Matteen Cleaves, Demarr Johnson, and Courtney Alexander were all lotto picks.


Courtney Alexander looked pretty promising until he tore his achilles, I give him a pass.

Dermarr Johnson broke his neck in a car accident, but he was never any good before that so he doesn't get one.


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## Najee

Also, let's not forget Duke's Trajan Langdon, who went 11th in the exceptional Class of '99 draft (ahead of former teammate Corey Maggette, Ron Artest, James Posey and Andrei Kirilenko).


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## HB

I know its a non-big man mention, but since he supposedly is 6'7, I'll sneak him on here. Ike Diogu never lived up to the Elton Brand comparisons.


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## GNG

Najee said:


> Also, let's not forget Duke's Trajan Langdon, who went 11th in the exceptional Class of '99 draft (ahead of former teammate Corey Maggette, Ron Artest, James Posey and Andrei Kirilenko).


You reminded me of William Avery, who got drafted 14th overall, and played just 1200 minutes over three seasons, shooting some horrendous percentages.


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## bootstrenf

how about yaroslave korelev.....

sf picked by the clippers......they passed up danny granger for this useless piece of crap because they gave him a promise before the draft.....


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## GNG

bootstrenf said:


> how about yaroslave korelev.....
> 
> sf picked by the clippers......they passed up danny granger for this useless piece of crap because they gave him a promise before the draft.....


Mother of god, Yaroslav Korolev. You win. 

How does Mike Dunleavy still have a job?


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## E.H. Munro

bootstrenf said:


> how about yaroslave korelev.....
> 
> sf picked by the clippers......they passed up danny granger for this useless piece of crap because they gave him a promise before the draft.....


I'd completely forgotten Yakov Smirnov. I remember cheering that selection (but only because I wanted to see Danny Granger slip to Boston).


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## Spaceman Spiff

Najee said:


> That is a compliment to Derrick Rose's and Jay Williams' college careers, but that's an absolute insult to Rose's NBA rookie season. Jay Williams was one of the worst rookie point guards practically guaranteed starter's minutes in 30 years (and that's not hypoerbole -- I pulled out comparable stats of rookie point guards in his situation on a thread a year or so ago and his numbers came out as the worst).





Cinco de Mayo said:


> I wish he'd have stayed healthy to prove you wrong. Outside of that triple-double on Jason Kidd, he had a pretty underwhelming rookie campaign. He was all over the map.
> 
> Completely inferior player to Derrick Rose.


How is that an insult!? The guy had some pretty solid games as a rookie even though his rookie year was underwhelming. No different than GP or D-Will. He had all the tools to become a top tier PG. 

He never had 2 or 3 years to see what direction he would go.

I do admit he was a bonehead with the bike incident.


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## Spaceman Spiff

Yaroslav Korolev!?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Why do the Clippers exist!?

I can make an All-Bust team from Clippers picks alone the past 10yrs

Shaun Livingston
Darius Miles
Yaroslav Korolev
Melvin Ely
Michael Olowakandi


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## c_dog

i first thought that crossed my mind was mateen cleaves. there are a lot of busts every year but bigman are certainly more memorable. a lot of guards never turn out to be the players you expect them to be but some still have a decent career, just not up to their original expectations(antonio daniels, kenny anderson). bigman are more likely to bust completely.. never turning into a half decent player. see hoffa, kandiman, kwame, swift. of course then there was troy bell and reece gaines.... jerryl sasser?<-- not really a bust because he was picked #22 or something but he shot around .302 for his career.. that's pretty impressive.


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## Spaceman Spiff

c_dog said:


> i first thought that crossed my mind was mateen cleaves. there are a lot of busts every year but bigman are certainly more memorable. a lot of guards never turn out to be the players you expect them to be but some still have a decent career, just not up to their original expectations(antonio daniels, kenny anderson). bigman are more likely to bust completely.. never turning into a half decent player. see hoffa, kandiman, kwame, swift. of course then there was troy bell and reece gaines.... jerryl sasser?<-- not really a bust because he was picked #22 or something but he shot around .302 for his career.. that's pretty impressive.


The immortal Jerryl Sasser. How can I forget the 3rd best player on T-Mac's Magic.


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## f22egl

Luke Jackson in 2005.


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## Najee

Spaceman Spiff said:


> How is that an insult!? The guy had some pretty solid games as a rookie even though his rookie year was underwhelming. No different than GP or D-Will. He had all the tools to become a top tier PG.
> 
> He never had 2 or 3 years to see what direction he would go.
> 
> I do admit he was a bonehead with the bike incident.


Arguably Jay Williams' best NBA game (the triple-double game vs. New Jersey) came in his seventh game and shortly after that his season was marked by inconsistent to poor play.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/pgl.cgi?player=willija03&year=2003

Williams had a 10-game stretch in late December-early January where he didn't score more than 5 points in 8 of those games. For a player who was reputed to be a standout offensive talent, he had stretches of games where he was horrible shooting the ball.

It's a joke to compare him with Gary Payton's rookie season. GP was with a veteran Sonics team and he played with an experienced point guard in Nate McMillian. Williams went to a poor team and was assured of starter's minutes if he showed consistency. Not to mention Williams was considered more advanced than GP at that phase, and yet GP was still the better offensive player.


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## bandits1

I would've liked to see how good Dajuan Wagner would've been injury and illness-free.


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## Najee

Injuries aside, Dajuan Wagner still would have washed out of the NBA, IMO. If you saw him at Memphis, he was a 6-foot-2 shooting guard who was a poor shooter, a disinterested defender and really did not contribute much when was being an inefficient scorer.


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## GNG

Najee said:


> Injuries aside, Dajuan Wagner still would have washed out of the NBA, IMO. If you saw him at Memphis, he was a 6-foot-2 shooting guard who was a poor shooter, a disinterested defender and really did not contribute much when was being an inefficient scorer.


And he had no left hand.


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## Spaceman Spiff

Lebron would have been Robin to Wagner's batman.


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## Spaceman Spiff

Whatever happened to Steve Logan from Cincinnati!? Not really a bust cause I don't think he made the team after Golden State drafted him 30th. I remember seeing the guy outscore an entire team by himself.


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