# Tim Thomas had a good game?



## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Not really.

TWO REBOUNDS.

The Knicks got killed by Sacramento's offensive rebounds. They sure could have used Van Horn. Especially since Van Horn had an even better night than TT.

It's for that reason the trade was bad. TWO REBOUNDS. In 39 minutes. Wtf is he Allan Houston? The Kings were without their best rebounder (I'm talking about Brad Miller, not Webber), and they still killed us on the boards.

Mike Bibby: 6 rebs
Doug Christie: 5 rebs
DARIUS SONGALIA: 13 rebs (4 offensive)
Peja: 6 rebs
Divac: 7 rebs

KT had 10 rebs
Nazr had 8
Shandon had 7
Penny and Sweetney had 4

39 rebounds and 2 rebounds. For a forward. I don't even know how he could even follow that up. Reminds me of his "clutch" playoff performances.


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## nycson (Nov 21, 2003)

33 points ain't too bad though but I see what youre talkin about. I didn't know until you brought to my attention.


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## A.W.#8 (Sep 8, 2003)

Tim needs to mix it up down low more often on D. I think he just likes to shy away and leave it up to the others.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

OK stat man, but you neglected a stat. TT has 2 assists to VH's zero. Two assists are guarabndteed points, rebounds are only potential points. At a generous 50% conversion rate, VH's 4 extra rebounds at best equal TT 2 assists.

See folks, this is why I've taken to stats. It's the only way to reach this man. TT had 33 points on 66% shooting and Rashidi's got to dismiss it.

He Rashidi, at least TT averages 4.8 rebounds. Is that as bad for a small forward as the 1.8 assists for a PG your boy Vujanic is averaging in euroleague?


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> OK stat man, but you neglected a stat. TT has 2 assists to VH's zero. Two assists are guarabndteed points, rebounds are only potential points. At a generous 50% conversion rate, VH's 4 extra rebounds at best equal TT 2 assists.
> 
> See folks, this is why I've taken to stats. It's the only way to reach this man. TT had 33 points on 66% shooting and Rashidi's got to dismiss it.
> ...



What the hell is this hate on Vuj? Jesus dude. What a nonsensical analogy.

Stop this kind of crap. It just opens the flood gates for stupidity. You compare those numbers, then someone compares the scoring titles and championships Milos has won, to the accolades TT has earned from his teammates ( Sam cassell) and you have an annoying point counterpoint that will span three pages.


We got creamed on the boards I mean seriously has TT ever heard of the phrase " Box Out" . My god what a **** defender I swear to god I'd take a point spread on a 1v1 game between him and that dog who shoots baskets with his nose. He is horrible.


33 points is nice, I commend him for picking up the scoring load when steph was running dry. I just need to see more glass production and defense before I feel comfortable with this guy.


Nazr had a decent game to. He seems like a 15 and 8 guy good defense by him. But it was against who Darius?


Also nice to see sweetney get some minutes. That kid could be a rebounding machine if he ever put his mind and body to it.


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## nycson (Nov 21, 2003)

Songaila was murderin us on the boards


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## NYCbballFan (Jun 8, 2003)

His over-all game was pretty crappy, but at least the scoring was a step in the right direction for T-Thomas. Knicks are lucky that the East is so weak after the top 5 teams, they can use the rest of the season to develop into I-Thomas' vision, absorb some ugly losses, and most likely still make the play-offs.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> See folks, this is why I've taken to stats. It's the only way to reach this man. TT had 33 points on 66% shooting and Rashidi's got to dismiss it.


The points weren't bad. Everything else was. 

VH had an even better shooting game than TT (only a little over 80%, against some guy called la-something-well), and still managed to grab his average in boards. If VH were here, we'd have gotten more boards. TT's 2 rebounds cost us the game. Sure he made up for it a bit with his scoring, but he (Mr. Crunch) wasn't a factor in the 4th quarter. Darius Songalia's offensive rebounds in the 4th quarter certainly were a factor.

The Kings were shooting mostly long jumpers. That means long rebounds. That means your wings and guards have to go for boards. The Kings did. Shandon and Penny did. TT did not.



> Is that as bad for a small forward as the 1.8 assists for a PG your boy Vujanic is averaging in euroleague?


1.8? Do your math smart guy. Vujanic has 54 assists in 19 games (that's 2.8), which is 2nd on his team. You DO know that euro games aren't 48 minutes, right?

And you DO know that Vujanic is a combo guard ala Jamal Crawford (who starts at SG in the NBA), and Gilbert Arenas, right? Vujanic starts at SG. The starting PG averages only 4.8 apg.

And most importantly, you DO know that Vujanic is leading his team in scoring (one of the best in Europe) with 17.7 ppg?

Detroit 1st rounder Carlos Delfino is averaging 9.9 ppg and 1.0 apg. Fortunately you DID know what you were talking about when you brought up European stats. Right?

Or not.



> Also nice to see sweetney get some minutes. That kid could be a rebounding machine if he ever put his mind and body to it.


I doubt it, he was a Layden pick.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> What the hell is this hate on Vuj? Jesus dude. What a nonsensical analogy.


Sorry fan, I disagree I think it's a perfectly apt analogy. Points and rebounds are fundemental stats for a forward, just as points and assisit are for a PG. I'm showing we can overlook a weak spot for a player we dig yet trash one we don't for a weekness of his. Happens all day long here, and I'm hardly the worst offender.



> Stop this kind of crap. It just opens the flood gates for stupidity. You compare those numbers, then someone compares the scoring titles and championships Milos has won, to the accolades TT has earned from his teammates ( Sam cassell) and you have an annoying point counterpoint that will span three pages.


Point/counter-point may be juvenile but I don't see you telling Rashdiddy to stop comparing every TT game to Van Horn's, as he does above.

You know, I, and I suspect many of us here were against the Sprewell for VH trade, but since I've been here I've not seen one person dig out Spree's stat line after a bad VH outing, of which there have been several. So if you are going to blow a gasket with your "what the hell's" and "stop your craps" and least do it even handedly.



> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 1.8? Do your math smart guy. Vujanic has 54 assists in 19 games (that's 2.8), which is 2nd on his team. You DO know that euro games aren't 48 minutes, right?
> 
> ...


Rashidi, I'm not going to pretend I follow the euroleague like you do, in fact I don't at all. But I can show you where I get my math from, and relative to this, dated Fed 25th, my math is fine:

http://www.euroleague.net/plantillas/jugador.jsp?id=AUP

I don't care what position he starts or how long his games are, I'm just glad he's no longer our "point guard" of the future, and I can see why he was intimidated by the likes of Eisley, with his career 3.6 apg.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> but since I've been here I've not seen one person dig out Spree's stat line after a bad VH outing, of which there have been several.


Actually, I did this, but your friend through a hissy fit every time. Spree has as many bad games as VH does. He'll follow up a 30 point outing with a 6 point outing.



> But I can show you where I get my math from, and relative to this, dated Fed 25th, my math is fine:


The stats page you have lists Vujanic as having played in 12 games.

He has played in 19 games. They clearly don't update everyday.

won the 2001-02 and 2002-03 Yugoslav National Championship with BC Partizan Belgrade...won the 2002 Yugoslav National Cup with BC Partizan Belgrade...played the 2001 Yugoslav All Star Game...*named to the 2002-03 All-Euroleague 2nd Team...led the 2002-03 Euroleague in scoring (25.8 ppg.)...led the 2002-03 Euroleague in received fouls (9.78 rfpg.)*...has been member of the Yugoslav Junior National Team...has been member of the Yugoslav Under-20 National Team...played at the 2000 European Under-20 Championship...has been member of the Yugoslav University National Team...played at the 1999 and 2001 World University Games...member of the Yugoslav National Team...won the gold medal at the 2002 World Championship...played at the 2003 European Championship. 

Further, a closer look and you would have found the league leaders section.

*The league leader in assists in Euroleague is only a mere 5.6.* The league leader in NBA rebounding averages a lot more than TT does.
Vujanic is 8th in the league in scoring. Last year he lead the league with 25 ppg.
Vujanic is 12th in the league in FT% at 87%

Vujanic according to this site.
16.5 ppg
1.3 rpg
1.8 apg
1.5 spg
0.0 bpg
2.0 tpg
.535 fg%
.395 3pt%
.877 ft%
29 mpg
12.9 ranking



> and I can see why he was intimidated by the likes of Eisley, with his career 3.6 apg.


Houston, Ward, Eisley, Williams. No room for Vujanic. Hmm, 29 mpg and a moderate amount of money vs 12 mpg and less money. Vujanic is making more money in Europe than most NBA 1st round picks, and playing a lot more minutes than most of them too.

What a tough decision. Man, he sure ran scared.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> What a tough decision. Man, he sure ran scared.


He know's where he belongs.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Actually, I did this, but your friend through a hissy fit every time. Spree has as many bad games as VH does. He'll follow up a 30 point outing with a 6 point outing.


I was talking about the opposite context, silly. Spree's suporters didn't drag out the stat lines when Spree had a great outing on the same night VH had a poor one. 

That would be juvenile and in bad taste.

Probably why my friend objected.


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## GONYK (Aug 14, 2002)

Well, TT was chasing Peja around the perimeter the whole night, which might have been a factor in his low rebound total. I'm nat saying he would have ripped down 7-8 rebs if this wasn't the case, but you have to take this into account


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> He know's where he belongs.


That's correct. In a situation that pays more.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

..not sure, but I think I read that assists are credited more conservatively in Europe which is one of the reasons the totals are down from here, overall.


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## Zalgirinis (Feb 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> The stats page you have lists Vujanic as having played in 12 games.
> 
> He has played in 19 games. They clearly don't update everyday.


They update everyday, every hour if more correct. Milos Vujanic has played 12 games out of his team's 14 in Euroleague. He missed two games with some injury.

Rashidi is probably refering to Vujanic's 19 games in Italian league. And Rashidi is right, he has made 2.8 apg in there, but 1.8 apg in Euroleague. 

Italian league is national championship (second best national championship after Spain's). Euroleague is top european tournament with top teams from all Europe.



> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> 
> ..not sure, but I think I read that assists are credited more conservatively in Europe which is one of the reasons the totals are down from here, overall.


Yes, thats right. I dont know how they exactly count it here, but you watch the game you see guy making 8-10 assists, you look at the stats and you find that he did 4... Somehow its different counted and dont forget game is 40 minutes, not 48.

As to Vujanic's thing. I doubt he ever plays point in his team. This team now has 3 PGs plus Vujanic. Hes shooting guard there, Delfino - SF.


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## WXHOOPS (Jan 15, 2004)

Tim Thomas = Garbage

He better enjoy his opportunity now, 'cause when Houston returns, he's done. He'll be a nice bench player next year when Sheed comes to town too. He is getting what he has deserved for years.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> That's correct. In a situation that pays more.


Well blingiddy-bling for him. There are plenty of money grubbing folk in the NBA who do just fine, if they're any good, and some even if they aren't.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> Fortunately you DID know what you were talking about when you brought up European stats. Right?
> 
> Or not.





> They update everyday, every hour if more correct. Milos Vujanic has played 12 games out of his team's 14 in Euroleague. He missed two games with some injury.
> 
> Rashidi is probably refering to Vujanic's 19 games in Italian league. And Rashidi is right, he has made 2.8 apg in there, but 1.8 apg in Euroleague.
> 
> Italian league is national championship (second best national championship after Spain's). Euroleague is top european tournament with top teams from all Europe.


Thanks, Zalgirinis. 

Wow Rashidi, good puffery, I almost though you knew a thing or two...


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

BTW, as I write it's halftime in the Milwalkee game. VH has zero points.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> There are plenty of money grubbing folk in the NBA who do just fine, if they're any good, and some even if they aren't.


Doesn't matter. It's easy for you to talk lowly about him because you're bitter he didn't come to play for your team.

If Frank Williams could get 2-3 million a year and 29 mpg, he'd be there in a second.

Don't forget that Vujanic only signed a 2 year deal with an opt out after the first year.



> Wow Rashidi, good puffery, I almost though you knew a thing or two...


A lot more than you were willing to investigate yourself, apparantly. I don't call top European players "scared" or "garbage". Maybe I just have a better respect for the sport internationally than you do.

Still, it was a nice way to take attention off of Tim Thomas' rebounding futility.

TT btw, just left the game with an elbow injury.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Van Horn has
4 points
*8 rebounds, 1st on team
5 assists, 2nd on team*

And the Bucks (without TJ Ford) beat the Celtics.

What a horrible game for VH. Damn, the Bucks sure are missing Tim Thomas.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Zalgirinis</b>!
> Yes, thats right. I dont know how they exactly count it here, but you watch the game you see guy making 8-10 assists, you look at the stats and you find that he did 4... Somehow its different counted and dont forget game is 40 minutes, not 48.


I believe an assist is awarded only when the guy who passes "creates" the scoring opportunity. the passer must free the scorer. dumping the ball to post for the center to get to work, or passing around the three-point line doesn't usually count as an assist.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> If Frank Williams could get 2-3 million a year and 29 mpg, he'd be there in a second.


I'm sure there are many players sucking it up on the bench in the NBA rather than taking the money overseas. Frank is one of them. Most NBA players play abroad when they feel their NBA career is over.




> A lot more than you were willing to investigate yourself, apparantly. I don't call top European players "scared" or "garbage". Maybe I just have a better respect for the sport internationally than you do.


How can you say you went further when I posted my source and my source was accurate? You didn't show your source and itr was wrong. I dare say you didn't go far enough.

And for your information I've never called ANY player garbage. Not ever.

But two things bother me in regards to Vujanic:

A) he was told by Layden he had a good chance to be our starter, and apparently starting in the NBA wasn't good enough for him, or he didin't believe he was as good as Layden thinks. 

B) For whatever reason, he chose not to play here, yet people have the gumption to assert it was foolish to trade him for a "star" point guard who was dying to play here. [Edit: I don't mean for this to include everyone who opposed the Marbury trade, just those who suggested we already has our future good PG in Vujanic]

But that's just me.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Van Horn has
> 4 points
> *8 rebounds, 1st on team
> 5 assists, 2nd on team*



I'm going to see if I can avoid another petty back and forth with you for a few days after this. It will be hard. But if I seem to be MIA it's not because I don't take issue with your provocatations and propoganda, I'm just coming to realize other people get what you are about and don't need me to point it out.

That said, the whole point of this thread seem to suggest a players outing is only as good as his weakest stat line. TT gets 33 pts and 2 assist and is proclaimed the Knick player of the game, and you see fit to start a thread, this thread, to show he only got 2 rebounds. This in spite of the fact the Knicks as a team outrebounded their opponent!

However, if I point out that VH only had 4 points against... Boston. Boston. Not Detroit, not San Antonio, but Boston... Boston... (Boston to be read with Iverson's inflection on "practice") you go to his other stats for validation.

I'm done for a while. Go ahead and trash the place.


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## Knicks Junkie (Aug 21, 2003)

Don't give in, son of oakley. Hold your ground. Don't let Rashidi, or any poster, for that matter, get on your nerves. I, for one, would miss your well thought-out and informative opinions.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

Tim Thomas did have a good game. Its tough getting a rebound when your at the three point line after chasing peja around like 4457 screens. The ball just always fell right into the kings hands on the long rebounds, but its true that they should have put more effort there.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Thanks Junkie, I do appreciate that!

It just gets sooo time consuming. 

It's bad enough when Rashidi floods us with irrelevant stas and theories (like the Crawford vs Francis debate a couple of weeks ago, or stating TT relies more on outside shooting than VH while his "supporting" stats contradict him) but here he's calling my accurate stasts wrong, while puffing his chest and chiding me for not being more diligent. It's a full time job just fact checking this guy! Plus he's got knicksbiggestfan, who goes from zero to red-line in no time flat, and who's always willing to bust an artery just to embellish a point.

It's all in good fun, but it does get tiring...


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## digital jello (Jan 10, 2003)

I think Rashidi's right, though...he always backs his opininons with solid evidence.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> I'm sure there are many players sucking it up on the bench in the NBA rather than taking the money overseas. Frank is one of them.


Staying where you are "comfortable" is easy. Playing overseas is hard on a player I would imagine, being away from friends, and having to learn a new language.



> Most NBA players play abroad when they feel their NBA career is over.


Most players play there when there is considerably more opportunity for them in Europe. Tyus Edney could play in the NBA again, but he chooses not to. If the NBDL were not created a few years ago, all those guys would be playing in Europe, and getting tryouts during the summer. That's how it was pre-NBDL.

However, that's a bit faulty anyway, since Vujanic began his career IN EUROPE. Obviously in the US leaving the country is the last resort, but when you come FROM EUROPE, I don't think there should be any complaint if a player decides to spend time there. Sabonis did it. Kukoc did it. Ginobili did it. Giricek did it. When these guys showed up, they were ready to contribute. 

Vujanic was not going to get PT in the NBA, so there was no reason for him to come over sooner than he had to. Houston at the 2, and the team already had 3 PGs. Notice that he didn't exactly sign a 5 year deal to stay in Europe. He could have commanded that if he desired.

Why is it a problem if Milos decides that he's better off showing up ready to contribute? It's a lot easier to beat out 3 PGs when you're ready to contribute. He won't even have to beat out 3 PGs, because his only competition now is Barbosa and Eisley, and Barbosa like Vujanic is a shoot first PG, but not at Vujanic's level yet. Looks like patience is a virtue, after all.

Ask Frank Williams if he'd prefer to be getting the opportunity Vujanic is getting, or if he'd rather be splitting time with Moochie Norris backing up Marbury for 6 minutes every other game.

Then again, he does have a guaranteed contract that will ensure him a bit of longevity in the league, but he isn't improving his skills riding the pine. He's 23 this season. He's not young like Lampe or Darko.

Then again, Ward didn't contribute until he was 26. But then again, Ward never amounted to more than a decent backup. And Ward never had to play behind Stephon Marbury.



> However, if I point out that VH only had 4 points against... Boston. Boston. Not Detroit, not San Antonio, but Boston... Boston... (Boston to be read with Iverson's inflection on "practice") you go to his other stats for validation.


When is the last time TT had 8 rebounds and 5 assists in a game? The Knicks could have used those boards, and most notably VH only played 28 mins. 8/5 in 28 mins is very impressive for him. His rebounds were clearly above TT's average, and his assists also much higher than his own and TT's average.

Most importantly, you said you're a results guy.

The Knicks lost to the Kings, and got wrecked on the boards by a team missing Webber and Brad Miller. Peja didn't seem to have a problem grabbing rebounds while chasing TT around. 

The Bucks beat the Celtics by 2, playing without their starting PG.

Maybe if VH doesn't grab one of those boards, or make one of those assists, the Bucks lose.

Maybe if TT grabs more than 2 boards, the Knicks win. Allowing 2nd chance points kinda cancels out your own scoring effort. TT didn't do a thing in the 4th quarter. He wasn't scoring. And he wasn't grabbing rebounds. So what was he doing in there? You say VH scores less in the 4th quarter, but that wouldn't make him any different from TT in that game, and I'm sure VH could grab more than 2 boards. Like I already pointed out, VH had his own hot game that night, scoring 26 points on only 11 field goals (compared to TT's 33 points on 21 field goals), and he grabbed 4 more boards than TT, in fewer minutes.

For someone so high on "results" you should heed your own words and come back with VH's box score when the Bucks lose a game, instead of nitpicking him during a victory. Don't reduce yourself to Rashidi's level if you're going to insinuate that you're better than him.



> A) he was told by Layden he had a good chance to be our starter, and apparently starting in the NBA wasn't good enough for him, or he didin't believe he was as good as Layden thinks.


Or he didn't think Don Chaney would play him over 2 vets, Charlie Ward plays the 4th for defensive purposes, and the Knicks already have a good 2 guard in Houston. People were so sold on F-Will being a good PG, and look how long it took him to get minutes, and look where he is now after the Marbury trade.

Furthemore, it already was stated that he got a better contract offer to stay in Europe another season. 



> ) For whatever reason, he chose not to play here, yet people have the gumption to assert it was foolish to trade him for a "star" point guard who was dying to play here


There were MANY reasons, not just Vujanic. They got Lampe, Vujanic, got to dump Penny and Trybanski on us, and only freed up about 20 million in cap room. Oh, and 2 first round picks, one of which was used to free up EVEN MORE cap room, which the Suns are going to use to try and pry Kobe away from LA. Even if they're unsuccessful, it's still a great situation for them, which can obviously be seen from just how badly they whooped the Knicks tonight. That's a scary team in 3 years, even if they don't get Kobe.

The Knicks meanwhile are .500 quality with Marbury, a 6th seed at best. Even with a full season, they still aren't good enough to beat the top 3 east teams, much less the top 6 west teams. So for this slightly upgraded mediocrity, we threw away youth, cap space, picks, and all the other useful tools that teams badly in need of a rebuild often require. And their tradable assets have run thin. We can offer teams Frank Williams (a backup PG), Michael Sweetney (a backup PF), Othella Harrington (ditto), and Dikembe Mutombo (a soon to be retired backup C). Wowie, I think we could get Rasheed Wallace with that kind of package! Or maybe Shareef Abdur-Rahim! Please. We'd be lucky to get Juwan Howard for such a package.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> It's a full time job just fact checking this guy! Plus he's got knicksbiggestfan, who goes from zero to red-line in no time flat, and who's always willing to bust an artery just to embellish a point.


Aw, what a hard life you must live.



> How can you say you went further when I posted my source and my source was accurate? You didn't show your source and itr was wrong. I dare say you didn't go far enough.


www.eurobasket.net

Like Zal said, my stats are from the Italian League it turns out.

I wasn't referring to your stats. I was referring to your general knowledge in the values of European stats in conjunction with your arguement. You know, when you compared Vujanic's assist totals to TT's rebound totals. You saw a number, and didn't bother to check what his peers were doing, you just immediately jumped on a chance to show Rashidi up on a player you wouldn't know anything about if I didn't bring him up. As it turns out, 5 rpg from a 6'10 player really does not compare to Vujanic's Euro assist total at SG.

I wonder if he is leading SGs in assists in the Euroleague? Maybe you should look that up or something, he of the mighty source.

And I wonder how many assists Stephon Marbury would average in Euro? 3-5? He'd be a shoot first guy like Milos too.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Yawn. Still blaming all these losses on Tim Thomas I see?  

We need Allen Houston back first and to start playing some damn defense.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Staying where you are "comfortable" is easy. Playing overseas is hard on a player I would imagine, being away from friends, and having to learn a new language.
> ...


Rashidi, this is an enormous bit of spin, and I'm not interesting in addressing this fully at the moment.

But I will address a couple of quick points just to make an example of your manuevers, as it's clear some here are in fact swayed by your ways.

So much of your explanation regarding Vujanic takes the assumption he's good, but there'd be no room for him on a roster with Ward and Eisley. WTF? Remeber, he opted out before the Marbury deal. If he's good he should be confident he'd get minutes with Ward and Eisley. To you it's obvious he'd never get to play. Yet Williams hung tough rather than going abroad and became our starter! That starter position wasn't Williams for the taking, it was Vujanics. But he played safe and essentially refused the starting position on the Knicks.

As it turned out we got Marbury, but there was no forseeing that and he rebuffed us well before Marbury was in sight, and if we had a good PG (Vujanic?) maybe Isiah would have spun a different trade for some front court players, with Vujanic leading the charge of a more balanced and significant contender. That's not an opportunity?

Now he may need to sign a new deal with Madrid, as Eisley has gone to Phoenix and they have the rookie Barbosa. So in his mind he may never get off the bench there either. Guess what, ever NBA team has a starting abd backup point guard - by your logic he'll never come over.

You also snip out the last part of my qoute, which says "I don't mean for this to include everyone who opposed the Marbury trade, just those who suggested we already has our future good PG in Vujanic" then go ahead and answer the whole Marbury trade debate again.

I understand the value of the trade to Phoenix. It was a good trade for them. I wanted to rebuild the Knicks too. But Layden left us no solid youth to build around and no youthful star contracts people would take off our hands. And we didn't have a chance of hell in getting under the cap with our 90mil payroll. So we were in a slightly different position than the Suns. I dare say the Colangelos/Fitzsimmons know a lot more about running a franchise than Layden/Dolan. Theirs was a rebuild, ours was a salvage operation. Given the different circumstances I think it was a good move for both parties.


Now putting speculation aside, let's get to the one issue in your post that is somewhat verifiable. You say "The Knicks lost to the Kings, and got wrecked on the boards by a team missing Webber and Brad Miller."

If you check the boxscore you'll see we out rebounded them 41 to 39. So we were not wrecked on the boards! Folks, Rashidi is great, but be very leery to take his stats or "evidence" at face value.

http://www.nba.com/games/20040224/NYKSAC/boxscore.html

We played them even most of the game, then got cold in the fourth while they got hot. The better team won. But there were good signs. We not only outrebounded them, we also got 12 fast break points to their 7 (yes, we outran the Kings) and we got more points in the paint by a large margin 48 to 26. Much of that can be credited to TT and Nazr. VH and Doleac are not good runners or postups. So these are positives that were much less attainable for the old Knicks. Plus TT's breakout offensive game that included a nice touch, a full floor layup, and plenty of post up turn around jumpers. Yet for you the significant factor of the game was that he only got 2 rebounds.

And what about Nazr, wasn't he part of the trade? No mention of his game: 15 pts on 7-12 shooting, 8 rebs, 2 stls, 2 asts. Why aren't you trying to embarass him to by posting Doleacs recent stat lines. Because he didn't play that night? Oh, but the night before he got 2 points and the night after he got 4.

It's prety clear your pro Layden and anti Isiah platform will not allow you to do anything but spin all future events in the worst possible light. Your myopic viewpoint and incessant negativity are boundless.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> Thanks Junkie, I do appreciate that!Plus he's got knicksbiggestfan, who goes from zero to red-line in no time flat, and who's always willing to bust an artery just to embellish a point.
> 
> It's all in good fun, but it does get tiring...


Nobody has me Junior. My opinions are my own. As I sit and type replies I do a myriad of things, from eating chinese food to proping my food up on the desk, I am far from blowing an artery.


I just don't take stupidity well, nor am I tolerant of ignorance.


P.S. Looks like TT hurt his vagina again. Good thing we got this guy. VH played for our team through the injuries, TT gets a sprain and has to go home to cry.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Yawn. Still blaming all these losses on Tim Thomas I see?
> 
> We need Allen Houston back first and to start playing some damn defense.


While we do need Houston back, Him playing defense? Heh. Don't sell the bike shop Orville.


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## benfica (Jul 17, 2002)

*Why don't you guys admit*

it, the VH trade was a bad move by IT. No reason for it.


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## dcrono3 (Jan 6, 2004)

TT for VH was bad, Nazr for Dolec was good. I personally believe that it balances out, but thats just me. It turn out to be a good trade if TT steps up his game in his hometown and Nazr plays like he did when he was a starter on the Hawks, but it could also blow up in our face and become a bad trade if TT doesn't improve and Nazr disappoints.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Home town? TT is from Jersey. That's like saying Elton Brand's home town is NYC, when he grew up in upstate NY. NJ is more than just a NY suburb you know.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Home town? TT is from Jersey. That's like saying Elton Brand's home town is NYC, when he grew up in upstate NY. NJ is more than just a NY suburb you know.


Get to NJ much? You sound a little provincial. It's as close to MSG as Queens you know, and there are more Knicks than Nets fans in NJ, unless Dr J is or possibly Kidd is on the team. What baseball team do you suppose most Jerseyites support? What football teams?


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Finally we getting terrotrial, go back to Jersey you ****in' mook.


Haha anyway. I was hoping we could sign Dion glover.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Actually it's divided. The lower half of Jersey gets Philly headlines, the upper half gets NY headlines.

Feel free to verify which part of Jersey TT is from.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Actually it's divided. The lower half of Jersey gets Philly headlines, the upper half gets NY headlines.
> 
> Feel free to verify which part of Jersey TT is from.


Well this is progress, soon you'll be able to edit yourself without making do all the dirty work.

He's from Paterson, it's Northern. Solidly Knicks country.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> Finally we getting terrotrial, go back to Jersey you ****in' mook.


I do live in Joisey now, but not nearly as long as I lived in NY.

But how's that tofu burger Cali boy Laker fan?


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> He's from Paterson, it's Northern. Solidly Knicks country.


How many miles from NYC?

Mark Jackson's hometown is NYC.
Stephon Marbury's hometown is NYC. 

They don't need a car to get to Manhattan. Just a couple minutes on the subway.

I somehow doubt TT made a daily transit to NY from NJ every day of his childhood life. Maybe he can see the empire state building from his house. That doesn't mean he grew up a NYer. I can see the stars in the sky from my house. That doesn't mean I'm an astronaut.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Do you have a point Rashidi? The guy grew up a Knicks fan and he's from the area. This is his hometown team, even if he doesn't live in the basement of the Garden. You can pull out a map and compare the miles from Paterson to MSG vs deep in Brooklyn to MSG. My guess is they are very similar, but I really don't care.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> Do you have a point Rashidi? The guy grew up a Knicks fan and he's from the area. This is his hometown team, even if he doesn't live in the basement of the Garden. You can pull out a map and compare the miles from Paterson to MSG vs deep in Brooklyn to MSG. My guess is they are very similar, but I really don't care.


:laugh: 

It seems his point is to argue.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Patterson, NJ is like 40 minutes away, because of all the traffic. You can take a Path train to the city anytime you like. 

Tim Thomas played in the Garden during his HS career during the Christmas time shootouts they had and he used to be at Rucker Park during the Spring/Summer all the time.

Rashidi what is your damn problem?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> Rashidi what is your damn problem


isnt it obvious???


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## 82 (Jul 11, 2002)

tim thomas grew up in Patterson which is about 10-12 miles from MSG, around the same area I grew up. This is certainly Thomas' hometeam as I considered the Knicks my home team growing up. Throughout my youth I'd say 90% of the people I knew were Knicks fans and considered the Knicks the hometeam. The Nets always have, and always will be, an afterthought. Thus, TT is now playing for his home team in an area extremely close to where he grew up. he could easily live in Upper Saddle River or Franklin Lakes and face a minimal commute every day.


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## Fordy74 (May 22, 2002)

There are tons of Knicks fans who were born and raised in Jersey. Tim THomas and myself included.

ive always been a quick train ride away from MSG and seein my boys play.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> 
> 
> I do live in Joisey now, but not nearly as long as I lived in NY.
> ...


You know move out here for the weather and you don't wanna believe the rumors. Then you see a " Low Carb Burger " at Carls's junior ( Roy Rogers), which is just some burger rapped in lettuce. and you're like WTF!

That and all the freakin yoga.


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