# LAL: Fans' TRUE feelings ...



## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

From today's LA Times. Here's the link although you might need to register: 

Fans' Viewpoint - LA Times 

======================

Hey Lakers, do you hear that? 

That's the sound of ping-pong balls.

_Robert Balandran
Woodland Hills_
*

I watch the Lakers these days and I am reminded of Ali late in his career against Spinks and Holmes. Waiting for Ali to get on his toes and dance, to make yet another incredible comeback, sticking and moving. Yet, all you get is Larry Holmes looking at the ref after every blow waiting for him to stop the fight so he doesn't kill him. 

I saw West from 63 feet against the Knicks, I saw the 33-game winning streak, I saw the baby skyhook in Boston, the Coop-a-loop, Showtime and Horry from anywhere at the buzzer. I'll take Cedric Ceballos and Nick Van Exel over these new guys.

_Tony Bledsoe
Los Angeles_
*

This Lakers' season is not a disappointment, it's an embarrassment. The facts are now in. Kobe is not an effective leader and can't win games with his exceptional athletic ability alone. 

The Spurs sure are lucky to have a low-maintenance guy like Tim Duncan for their team leader. Is it a coincidence that San Antonio is, once again, the team to beat this year, while the Lakers stink? 

_Daniel Zampelli
Los Angeles_
*

The game against the Knicks was the perfect microcosm for this Laker team. Kobe has bent over backward, alienating fans and colleagues, to fashion a team that defers to no one but him. Luke Walton's pass in the final second is the perfect example of the type of mentality that Kobe himself fought so hard to create. Then, when confronted with the damage that it does to a basketball team, he has the nerve to look surprised.

_Brett Elliott
Van Nuys_
*

Kobe Bryant has settled his lawsuit. And I'm sure that it had nothing to do with guilt and simply with him wanting to get on with his life. And I'm also sure that the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny are real. 

_Craig P. Fagan
San Diego_
*

As the Pistons' rout of the Lakers last week was mercifully coming to an end, I heard Jim Gray repeat one of the most absurd things in sports annals: that Jerry Buss was the architect of two previous championship-caliber Laker teams and that this was a cause for optimism. 

What a crock! The true "architect" of those championship teams now works for Memphis. Buss' contribution was to keep his mouth shut and his wallet open while Jerry West went about his work. 

Buss' first foray into making a basketball decision was a disaster and is the prime reason the Lakers are in their current state. Buss chose Phil Jackson over West, the only individual Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe Bryant respected and liked.

_Kenneth O. James
Ashland, Va._
*

The way the Lakers and Clippers have played for pretty much the entire season, is there any way we can reverse things and have the Kings and Ducks playing while the Lakers and Clippers are involved in a work stoppage? 

_Erik Schuman
Fountain Valley _ 

I guess they all agree with me ... The Kobe Bryant "experiment" was a disaster. Now how do you recover. It won't be Phil Jackson; he's never won without at least TWO superstars. And, if he comes back --- his reputation and accomplishments will be tarnished.


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## Locke (Jun 16, 2003)

Dynasty Raider said:


> I guess they all agree with me ... The Kobe Bryant "experiment" was a disaster. Now how do you recover. It won't be Phil Jackson; he's never won without at least TWO superstars. And, if he comes back --- his reputation and accomplishments will be tarnished.


Why hello there Mr. Troll! :wave:


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

Dynasty Raider said:


> I guess they all agree with me ... The Kobe Bryant "experiment" was a disaster. Now how do you recover. It won't be Phil Jackson; he's never won without at least TWO superstars. And, if he comes back --- his reputation and accomplishments will be tarnished.


message to hater...

1. The Season isn't over
2. The majority of these players are having career seasons with Kobe..
3. Most people didn't see LA in the playoffs... 
-but after losing Kobe for 14 games, losing their coach, not signing a coach, and having an underacheiving Lamar Odom... *the Lakers are still in the 8 spot in an absolutley stacked West* 
4. *Phil has never but one season coached a team wit less than 2 superstars... give the genious a chance...* 
5. The Season isn't over yet... oh, an either is the expirement...
Rome wasn't built in a day


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

It's not working out as well as planned, but it's certainly not a "disaster".


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## Brian34Cook (Mar 26, 2003)

*Yawn*


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## LakerLunatic (Mar 1, 2005)

Sometimes the rebounding and the team defense is really frusterating. But i honestly do see huge potential if you can keep Odom,Butler and Kobe togather. This season is pretty much going exactly how i thought it would, no better, and no worse. I treat the Lakers like a religion, i must never lose my faith, because when the day of reckoning comes upon the NBA. I want to be on the winning side... Lakers be champions again, just give them time.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

I'm waiting for more than 60 games with a injury plagued team and coach turnover before casting my verdict on Kobe as a leader or this roster. Only thing I can conclude now is that Buss should stay out of basketball matters. Bringing in Rice, Rodman, and trading Shaq were all his work. His daughter isn't much better. She is the main reason Rambis stayed in the organization before being brought back as coach while Jim Cleamons had to go to New Orleans.


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

Damian Necronamous said:


> It's not working out as well as planned, but it's certainly not a "disaster".


IMO, we are where we thought we would be. A .500 team. Also, I cant believe these writers saying all these things after half a season.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

There are a lot of stupid Laker fans. Even worse, some of them are Clipper fans.


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## Ghiman (May 19, 2003)

This really disturbs me. It shows you that we as Lakers fans are spoiled brats. We've been to the finals 4 out of the 5 years under PJ, in addition to, 3 consecutive championships. Now that the Lakers are in the process of an "Extreme Makeover" and considered to be an average team, everyone who once loved the Lakers are now talking sausage about them. Just a bunch of ****en bandwaggon hoppers. All i can say to those people who commented on the Lakers in that article, GET THE **** OFF THE BANDWAGGON BIATCH! :curse: (Only True Laker Fans on Board Please). I understand its frustrating watching the team loose, but sometimes you just gotta roll with the punches. A True Laker Fan equals to you live with them, you die with them, and bleed purple & gold! 

Okay...i gotta take a deep breath & have a beer:cheers:

BTW, who let Dynasty Raider back in?? Someone call security! SECURITY!


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## Lakers Own (Mar 3, 2005)

The Spurs sure are lucky to have a low-maintenance guy like Tim Duncan for their team leader. Is it a coincidence that San Antonio is, once again, the team to beat this year, while the Lakers stink? 


Wow, this quote has to be one the stupidest quotes I've ever heard. Sorry that Kobe Bryant show emotion when he plays unlike that Robot, TD. I don't think anybody this year was expecting the Lakers to be the team to beat. I projected at the beginning of the season they'd be around 6th in the West. This writer is a moron.


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

ghiman said:


> BTW, who let Dynasty Raider back in?? Someone call security! SECURITY!


Who else has enough _____ or even enough interest in your team to come here and "attempt" to keep you grounded in the real world.

You all spent YEARS belittling, badmouthing other teams and their fans when you had Shaq. You were looking foolish even then. Now you only have each other and I feel really sorry for you. If you just step away like the ones you're calling "bandwaggoners" and see the real picture, you too will be embarrassed. They are not fickle or bandwagon fans; just realists. You all want to pretend NOW that you didn't think your team would win a championship without Shaq, talked about Shaq like he offended your Mother, was telling everyone that Kobe or the Lakers didn't need Shaq because Kobe made Shaq. 

The only thing that you said that was accurate was that Shaq hasn't won a championship without Kobe. Well, that is true. But ask your selves this ... who's closer to winning one and who's having loads of fun while doing it?

Not trolling ... just keeping you all grounded and in the real basketball world. It ain't fun being just like every other team in the league, is it?

So who can you put down now when you're fighting your hearts out not to be beaten by my Clippers, perennial bottom draggers that will be all over your team next year. :biggrin: Don't try and blame your troubles on injuries and loss of a coach. Hell, Kobe didn't want him there anyway and Rudy T couldn't coach while Kobe was talking to the guys over him. Besides, you don't hear the Clippers using injuries as an excuse. Kobe only missed a few games and that was primarily because he was burnt out --- everyone but Kobe and you all knew he couldn't play :42 for 82 games. So, why not take some time off to "rehab" and give the losing team an excuse --- "Kobe was injured so it's not fair to say he couldn't win without Shaq". Yeah right.

Well ... off your board. Since you all don't want anyone here to oppose your lovefest. :biggrin:


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Dynasty Raider said:


> Who else has enough _____ or even enough interest in your team to come here and "attempt" to keep you grounded in the real world.
> 
> You all spent YEARS belittling, badmouthing other teams and their fans when you had Shaq. You were looking foolish even then. Now you only have each other and I feel really sorry for you. If you just step away like the ones you're calling "bandwaggoners" and see the real picture, you too will be embarrassed. They are not fickle or bandwagon fans; just realists. You all want to pretend NOW that you didn't think your team would win a championship without Shaq, talked about Shaq like he offended your Mother, was telling everyone that Kobe or the Lakers didn't need Shaq because Kobe made Shaq.
> 
> ...


What reality, not one Laker fan was expecting a championship coming into this season. Just as most Clipper fans expected another season in the lottery.



> So who can you put down now when you're fighting your hearts out not to be beaten by my Clippers, perennial bottom draggers that will be all over your team next year. :biggrin:


Yeah, just like they've been all over the Lakers for the last 7 years eh? :laugh:



> Don't try and blame your troubles on injuries and loss of a coach. Hell, Kobe didn't want him there anyway and Rudy T couldn't coach while Kobe was talking to the guys over him.


You haven't watched the Lakers at all this season.



> Besides, you don't hear the Clippers using injuries as an excuse. Kobe only missed a few games


He missed 14 kid. 



> and that was primarily because he was burnt out ---


LMAO! Can't even get facts straight. 



> Well ... off your board. Since you all don't want anyone here to oppose your lovefest. :biggrin:


No, we just don't want trolls trashing this board with nonsense, fallicies, and poor analysis all the time. Especially when they're Clippers fans.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

Damian Necronamous said:


> It's not working out as well as planned, but it's certainly not a "disaster".



lol. Only the lakers could get a an almost completely new team besides one superstar (who was out 14 games), one cripple... Stay above 500 even though a key part of there trade was also hurt and out the entire season thus far and still be considered a complete disaster.

I think the fact that they even have a chance at making the playoffs considering all this Laker team went through is an accomplishment. But I guess Im just a biased fan.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Dynasty Raider said:


> Who else has enough _____ or even enough interest in your team to come here and "attempt" to keep you grounded in the real world.
> 
> You all spent YEARS belittling, badmouthing other teams and their fans when you had Shaq. You were looking foolish even then. Now you only have each other and I feel really sorry for you. If you just step away like the ones you're calling "bandwaggoners" and see the real picture, you too will be embarrassed. They are not fickle or bandwagon fans; just realists. You all want to pretend NOW that you didn't think your team would win a championship without Shaq, talked about Shaq like he offended your Mother, was telling everyone that Kobe or the Lakers didn't need Shaq because Kobe made Shaq.
> 
> ...


Whatever, I'm confident that without a midseason coaching change and numerous injuries this team would perform much better... thats not being biased, thats common sense. Would they compete for a title? No. But with some minor techiques, increased coehision and familuarity, and player progression they could get there. That doesn't mean I'm happy with Kobe breaking up the team or his actions as a leader, I'm just not ready turn in my verdict on the situation. I like to consider myself even headed for a Laker fan... I don't go into chicken little mode when things are down and call everyone a scrub and demand drastic change.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> That doesn't mean I'm happy with Kobe breaking up the team....


It's funny to hear you rewrite history. I suppose Shaq never asked for a trade either.


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## Blink4 (Jan 17, 2005)

Dynasty Raider said:


> The only thing that you said that was accurate was that Shaq hasn't won a championship without Kobe. Well, that is true. *But ask your selves this ... who's closer to winning one and who's having loads of fun while doing it?*
> :biggrin:


Almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades buddy.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

EHL said:


> It's funny to hear you rewrite history. I suppose Shaq never asked for a trade either.


He did, do you remember the reason why?

1) Buss tells Mitch to get Kobe resigned, even if it means trading Shaq and not bringing back Phil as coach.

2) Phil asks Kobe in a meeting with Mitch if Shaqs presence on the teams would affect him resigning. Kobe tells Phil- "Yes, I'm tired of being a sidekick." When Phil asks Kobe if Phil being the coach would affect him coming back he simply replies "do what you want to do."

3) Buss tells Phil they are going in another direction, doesn't bring him back.

4) Mitch holds press conference stating that the Lakers are open to trading Shaq and will never deal Kobe.

5) Shaq demands trade.

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that Kobe got his own team like he wanted. If they fail, he should be largely to blame. My expectations are a contender by 07.


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## SoCalfan21 (Jul 19, 2004)

shobe42 said:


> message to hater...
> 
> 1. The Season isn't over
> 2. The majority of these players are having career seasons with Kobe..
> ...


Who was the second superstar in Chicago....Pippen? I really dont consider pippen a superstar


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

SoCalfan21 said:


> Who was the second superstar in Chicago....Pippen? I really dont consider pippen a superstar



Pippen had some great moves.. And could play crunch time.. But I dont consider him a superstar either. I know he went to the all-star game, etc. But honestly if you look at all the years he played, and his statistical averages, Odom blows him out of the water with statics. Odom just needs to develope a killer instinct in crunch time. And how and Kobe would make a great team.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> He did, do you remember the reason why?
> 
> 1) Buss tells Mitch to get Kobe resigned, even if it means trading Shaq and not bringing back Phil as coach.
> 
> ...


As far as i'm concerned, there are 4 guys responsable for the break-up of the team: Buss, Mitch, Kobe and Shaq (in no order).

So yes, i believe Kobe has a hand on our ill-advised fate this year...

But that's history, now... Gotta move on. And *MOVE UP!!!!* :biggrin:


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> But honestly if you look at all the years he played, and his statistical averages, Odom blows him out of the water with statics.


How? Pippen was a 19/6/6 guy during the six Bulls championship seasons. This year, Odom is putting up 16/10/4.


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

CDRacingZX6R said:



> Pippen had some great moves.. And could play crunch time.. But I dont consider him a superstar either. I know he went to the all-star game, etc. But honestly if you look at all the years he played, and his statistical averages, Odom blows him out of the water with statics. Odom just needs to develope a killer instinct in crunch time. And how and Kobe would make a great team.



This is absolutely absurd. To even mention Odom in the same breath as Pippen is ridiculous. Pippen absolutely was a superstar.

Do you have any idea how great a defender he was?


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## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

SoCalfan21 said:


> Who was the second superstar in Chicago....Pippen? I really dont consider pippen a superstar


Pippen wasn't a superstar?

Its obvious that you didn't watch much of the Bulls during the championship years.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

The Truth said:


> Pippen wasn't a superstar?
> 
> Its obvious that you didn't watch much of the Bulls during the championship years.



I dont think I ever argued that pippen wasnt a great defender. But I'm sorry in the time peroid I've watched the NBA there were many players as good and better than pippen that never achieved superstar status. You leave pippen on the bulls, and take away Jordan you probably wouldnt even remember much about pippen. Pippen was good. Was above average. But when I hear superstar I think of Jordon, Johnson, Rivers, etc. I dont think about Pippen.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> I dont think I ever argued that pippen wasnt a great defender. But I'm sorry in the time peroid I've watched the NBA there were many players as good and better than pippen that never achieved superstar status. You leave pippen on the bulls, and take away Jordan you probably wouldnt even remember much about pippen. Pippen was good. Was above average. But when I hear superstar I think of Jordon, Johnson, Rivers, etc. I dont think about Pippen.


You've got to be kidding me. Andre Miller, Theo Ratliff, Eddie Jones, these guys are above average. Scottie Pippen was a top 5 player in the league in his prime. I don't know how you can argue that he's not. Statistically, the guy was averaging 20-7-6 on 50% shooting during the Bulls' championship run. That was just his offensive contribution. On defense he was one of the 4-5 best perimeter defenders ever. He routinely drew the toughest assignment on defense so that Jordan could keep his energy. It's not a stretch to say that he was just as important to the Bulls as Kobe was to the Lakers during their run. Yet, you'd consider Kobe a superstar and Pippen an above average player? That is absurd. As for Pippen not being remembered without Jordan, I seem to remember Scottie being an MVP candidate while leading the Bulls to 55 wins the season MJ retired. His team was one game away from being in the ECF. What is Kobe doing without Shaq again? The guy is one of the 50 greatest players of all time for crying out loud. BTW, who the heck is Rivers?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Dynasty Raider said:


> From today's LA Times. Here's the link although you might need to register:
> 
> Fans' Viewpoint - LA Times
> 
> ...


Amusing :greatjob:


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> Pippen had some great moves.. And could play crunch time.. But I dont consider him a superstar either. I know he went to the all-star game, etc. But honestly if you look at all the years he played, and his statistical averages, Odom blows him out of the water with statics. Odom just needs to develope a killer instinct in crunch time. And how and Kobe would make a great team.


Not sure what stats you've reviewed but Scottie was an allstar and first team all nbaer on both sides of the ball nearly every year during the 90's. How many times has Odom been an allstar? Has he even made one all nba team? Ever been an all league defender? :nonono: You have no clue of how great a player scottie pippen was..... No clue!


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> He did, do you remember the reason why?
> 
> 1) Buss tells Mitch to get Kobe resigned, even if it means trading Shaq and not bringing back Phil as coach.


Really? Please let me know exactly where you learned this, especially considering that the Clippers (Baylor specifically) said that Kobe had broken a verbal agreement with them. If Buss knew Kobe would be a Laker, then why’d he consider being a Clipper and break a verbal agreement days before signing with the Lakers? 



> 2) Phil asks Kobe in a meeting with Mitch if Shaqs presence on the teams would affect him resigning. Kobe tells Phil- "Yes, I'm tired of being a sidekick." When Phil asks Kobe if Phil being the coach would affect him coming back he simply replies "do what you want to do."


Except that the sidekick comment doesn’t mean he wouldn’t resign. And the Phil comment didn’t read like that, it read something like “No, you coming back doesn’t affect my decision”, which is confirmed by the latest rumors that Phil will be coach of the Lakers. 



> 3) Buss tells Phil they are going in another direction, doesn't bring him back.


Yet Kobe is fine with Phil coming back and there are strong rumors he will be back this season? Pretty odd of someone to kick someone out and then ask them back, huh? Or maybe it’s because Phil was never kicked out in the first place. 



> 4) Mitch holds press conference stating that the Lakers are open to trading Shaq and will never deal Kobe.


And? 



> 5) Shaq demands trade.
> 
> I think it's pretty obvious at this point that Kobe got his own team like he wanted.


It’s not in the least obvious if you follow the Lakers closely, which apparently you don’t. 



> If they fail, he should be largely to blame.


No, I’d blame both Kobe and Shaq for not being able to get along with each other, actually. Who you choose to blame more is nothing more than your own (unfounded) biases.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

IV said:


> Not sure what stats you've reviewed but Scottie was an allstar and first team all nbaer on both sides of the ball nearly every year during the 90's. How many times has Odom been an allstar? Has he even made one all nba team? Ever been an all league defender? :nonono: You have no clue of how great a player scottie pippen was..... No clue!



So you honestly think that if MJ wasnt on his team during that peroid we'd even be talking about him now? I dont think so.


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## HallOfFamer (May 26, 2003)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> So you honestly think that if MJ wasnt on his team during that peroid we'd even be talking about him now? I dont think so.


Seriously just stop, youre fighting a losing battle.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

Pippen not a superstar? That is incredibly stupid. Stop making Lakers fans look bad.


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## onelakerfan (Nov 11, 2004)

I thought this thread was about the Lakers. Just to say I don't watch TV. only the Laker games, so my true feeling about the Lakers, don't matter loose or win, I will watch the game, we will all be watching them play, loose or win, and we all will be though on them when they loose and cheer when they win. Just the fact that 90% of us spend 3-4 hr talking about purple and gold

Out


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

-D! said:


> Pippen not a superstar? That is incredibly stupid. Stop making Lakers fans look bad.



I know that you must feel increadibly insulted by my words, but dont worry. Im talking about pippen, not you. So you dont have to get so sensitive that you lash out and say retarded things.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

HallOfFamer said:


> Seriously just stop, youre fighting a losing battle.



Your right... I dont want to hurt anyone elses feelings by my comments about about Scotty Pippen, I realize now he is an important part to laker fan history. :greatjob:


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

EHL said:


> Really? Please let me know exactly where you learned this, especially considering that the Clippers (Baylor specifically) said that Kobe had broken a verbal agreement with them. If Buss knew Kobe would be a Laker, then why’d he consider being a Clipper and break a verbal agreement days before signing with the Lakers?


Where did I say that Buss knew Kobe would be a Laker? I said he told Mitch to do whatever possible to get him to remain one, even trading Shaq and letting Phil go. 



> Except that the sidekick comment doesn’t mean he wouldn’t resign. And the Phil comment didn’t read like that, it read something like “No, you coming back doesn’t affect my decision”, which is confirmed by the latest rumors that Phil will be coach of the Lakers.


Q: Would Shaq's presence on the team affect your decision to stay?
A: Yes, I'm tired of being a sidekick.

He's not saying there is no way he comes back if Shaq is here, but if you don't consider that a endorsement to trade Shaq than I don't see the point in continuing this conversation.



> Yet Kobe is fine with Phil coming back and there are strong rumors he will be back this season? Pretty odd of someone to kick someone out and then ask them back, huh? Or maybe it’s because Phil was never kicked out in the first place.


You think he quit on his own? Why would he want to come back so soon then, huh? To be honest with you I'm not sure if Kobe really cared if Phil was here or not. I think Buss believed that the Lakers would have a stronger case of bringing Kobe back if he let Phil go based on their past conflicts, not based on Kobe's demands.



> It’s not in the least obvious if you follow the Lakers closely, which apparently you don’t.


:laugh:

Test me my friend. Ask me anything. I could give you a scouting report of Reggie Jordan's stint here and why he was brought in. But I know you didn't believe that and you just like to attack people personally when debating hoops unfortunately.



> No, I’d blame both Kobe and Shaq for not being able to get along with each other, actually. Who you choose to blame more is nothing more than your own (unfounded) biases.


I actually used to feel the same way, but then this summer not only did Shaq trash Kobe on his way out, but so did Phil, so did Malone. And no one outside of Kobe trashed Shaq. So everyone hated Kobe and nobody outside of Kobe hated Shaq. Thats what framed my so-called "bias." HOWEVER I am willing to forgive if Kobe can deliver this team a contender with a little bit of help from Mitch. And I mean a little because this roster should be contending by next season if Kobe delivers.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> So you honestly think that if MJ wasnt on his team during that peroid we'd even be talking about him now? I dont think so.


I used to be a Pippen antagonist, but I realized this man deserves respect. I do think we would be talking about Pippen even if he didn't play with MJ. Perhaps, Scottie would not have had the success throughout his career, but he would have been a great player none the less. If you watch footage of Pip when he was young, yes.... he did have mental lapses and make alot of mistake. And surely he learned alot from Mike and Phil or other on the team that made him a better player, but you could always see the potential in Pippen. He was very athletic, quick, pesty on defense, good passer, could see the court well and for the most part he played smart basketball, he just would make the type of mistakes alot of young players make, but improve on after being in the league for a while. 

Re-evaluate your opinion of Scottie Pippen. If you do the research: watch him play, listen to comments about his play from other greats, read his resume, try and forget that he played with Mike(easier said than done), I bet you'll change your mind.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

Jamel Irief said:


> I actually used to feel the same way, but then this summer not only did Shaq trash Kobe on his way out, but so did Phil, so did Malone. And no one outside of Kobe trashed Shaq. So everyone hated Kobe and nobody outside of Kobe hated Shaq. Thats what framed my so-called "bias." HOWEVER I am willing to forgive if Kobe can deliver this team a contender with a little bit of help from Mitch. And I mean a little because this roster should be contending by next season if Kobe delivers.


Good going Jamel!!! I am of the same opinion as you about Kobe, Shaq, Phil, Mitch, Buss and The Lakers. I am a longtime Laker fan (since 1980) and what happened after the Championship series last year really turned me off, for the first time in 25 years. I couldn't believe how many "Laker fans" were dissing Phil and Shaq. And Kobe was to become the next MJ? Maybe, when Kobe gets 3 MVP's, and a couple more Championships . Jerry Buss was so enamored with Kobes talent and upside that he didn't notice, like many other Laker fans, there was a hall of fame coach and player "helping out" Kobe.

I hated it when Shaq was disrespected by that trade and I would be angry too if that happened to me. The least Mitch and Jerry should have done was talk to Shaq and give him the respect he deserved during the time he was a Laker and giving them Championships. The same could be said of Phil.

Now, with all that has happened; Phil leaving, Shaq being uncerimoniously traded, Malone vs Kobe/Vanessa, Rudy T's "surprise" departure as coach, the possibility of Phil coming back, and The Lakers fighting for 8th spot for the playoffs... all I know is that the choices made this past post season is really going to bite LA back in the arse.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> I actually used to feel the same way, but then this summer not only did Shaq trash Kobe on his way out, but so did Phil, so did Malone. And no one outside of Kobe trashed Shaq. So everyone hated Kobe and nobody outside of Kobe hated Shaq. Thats what framed my so-called "bias." HOWEVER I am willing to forgive if Kobe can deliver this team a contender with a little bit of help from Mitch. And I mean a little because this roster should be contending by next season if Kobe delivers.


Phil didn't hate Kobe. They just had their differences. Malone didn't hate Kobe. In fact, Malone always seemed to support Kobe until he tried to **** his wife and Kobe, understandably wasn't having it!.' Now Shaq, he hated Kobe. I'm sure Kobe felt the same way, but to say everyone hated Kobe and no one hated Shaq isn't true. Jerry Buss seemingly did not hate Kobe, which is why he chose him over Shaq and Phil.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> Good going Jamel!!! I am of the same opinion as you about Kobe, Shaq, Phil, Mitch, Buss and The Lakers. I am a longtime Laker fan (since 1980) and what happened after the Championship series last year really turned me off, for the first time in 25 years. I couldn't believe how many "Laker fans" were dissing Phil and Shaq. And Kobe was to become the next MJ? Maybe, when Kobe gets 3 MVP's, and a couple more Championships . Jerry Buss was so enamored with Kobes talent and upside that he didn't notice, like many other Laker fans, there was a hall of fame coach and player "helping out" Kobe.


Buss knew that, but he had to make a decision that he felt was best for the future of his team. He's made the right decisions before, so give it some time and turn could turn out to be a good one as well.



> I hated it when Shaq was disrespected by that trade and I would be angry too if that happened to me. The least Mitch and Jerry should have done was talk to Shaq and give him the respect he deserved during the time he was a Laker and giving them Championships. The same could be said of Phil.


Shaq could not have had it sweeter with the trade. Shaq said he wanted to be trade, they shipped him to the JV league, to play along side one of the best guards in that conference, he basically picked up where he left off. 

What more could they have done. It was a vicious game being played between Kobe, Phil, Shaq, Buss, and Mitch and someone had to leave. 



> Now, with all that has happened; Phil leaving, Shaq being uncerimoniously traded, Malone vs Kobe/Vanessa, Rudy T's "surprise" departure as coach, the possibility of Phil coming back, and The Lakers fighting for 8th spot for the playoffs... all I know is that the choices made this past post season is really going to bite LA back in the arse.


You don't know that. These decisions weren't made with the hope that we could be back in the finals this year, it will take time, so see how it goes.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

> Buss knew that, but he had to make a decision that he felt was best for the future of his team. He's made the right decisions before, so give it some time and turn could turn out to be a good one as well.


I'm saying that Buss made a bad decision. Buss was so enamored with Kobe and his possibility to become the next MJ, he forgot that Phil Jackson and Shaq were playing with Kobe and helping Kobe become the player that he looked like on the court. I hated it when so called "Laker fans" were celebrating on the Shaq trade. Mitch and Buss disrespected Shaq by stating he could be traded on national TV, the same way Shaq learned the Phil would not be resigned. That is not how you treat a player who was instrumental in giving you 3 Championships. The same with Phil.

It was bad move from the start and when they did trade Shaq I was more pissed because of the players they got for him. I was more disgusted when the so called "Laker fans" were saying that this new Laker team was going to be built like The Bulls dynasty of MJ and Pippen. I've been saying that Kobe is a great player, but I knew that Kobe needed more experience to be on the same level as MJ. Even Magic Johnson has said it, and to my disappointment, Magic was met with disdain and insults from some Laker fans because he "criticized" their idol.






> Shaq could not have had it sweeter with the trade. Shaq said he wanted to be trade, they shipped him to the JV league, to play along side one of the best guards in that conference, he basically picked up where he left off.


I hate it when people said Shaq wanted to be traded without saying why. If Shaq were treated with more respect than just being thrown away like used toilet paper, then there would have been a chance of him staying (although slim, because he and Kobe despised each other), but at least Laker management would have been the bigger person. I wouldn't have minded a trade if Shaq were given the same treatment as Kobe by management. Trade Shaq, but don't do it that way. Then The Lakers wouldn't have been afraid to trade Shaq to a west coast team (like Portland, Memphis, or Dallas) and had a better deal.

And I don't think the Eastern Conference is the JV league now. I think the top teams in the east can complete and defeat the top teams of the west. Unlike previous seasons where you could tell there was a huge difference in talent and play between the 2 conferences.






> You don't know that. These decisions weren't made with the hope that we could be back in the finals this year, it will take time, so see how it goes.


These decisions were made so Kobe would go back to The Lakers. Definetely, the Shaq trade was to appease Kobe and to a small extent, the release of Phil. But what I don't understand is that The Lakers didn't have to do anything and they would have been better off. Even if Shaq didn't want to play the worst senario would be one bad year, Kobe would have a year to experience what it would be like to be the "Leader" of the Lakers and when Shaq left, the Lakers would be 25+ million under the cap with a possible lottery pick. That would be a better situation as they are in now.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

tatahbenitez said:


> I hate it when people said Shaq wanted to be traded without saying why. If Shaq were treated with more respect than just being thrown away like used toilet paper, then there would have been a chance of him staying (although slim, because he and Kobe despised each other), but at least Laker management would have been the bigger person. I wouldn't have minded a trade if Shaq were given the same treatment as Kobe by management. Trade Shaq, but don't do it that way. Then The Lakers wouldn't have been afraid to trade Shaq to a west coast team (like Portland, Memphis, or Dallas) and had a better deal.


There was no way we could afford to trade him to a West coast team. Keep in mind, we don't know everything that went on behind the scenes. We do know that Shaq had tried to get rid of Kobe many times leading up to his departure from LA. IMO, Shaq uses 'disrespect' as an excuse to seem like a victim. Jerry Buss choosing Kobe over Shaq is the reason why he demanded to be traded, not because he was disrespected by not knowing that Phil and Buss couldn't workout the money. Can you imagine having to explain to Shaq that Phil's not returning would have gone, after he publically stated that he would never play for any coach other than Phil, and would retire if Phil left.



> And I don't think the Eastern Conference is the JV league now. I think the top teams in the east can complete and defeat the top teams of the west. Unlike previous seasons where you could tell there was a huge difference in talent and play between the 2 conferences.


Miami has lot the majority of its game against the West




> These decisions were made so Kobe would go back to The Lakers. Definetely, the Shaq trade was to appease Kobe and to a small extent, the release of Phil. But what I don't understand is that The Lakers didn't have to do anything and they would have been better off. Even if Shaq didn't want to play the worst senario would be one bad year, Kobe would have a year to experience what it would be like to be the "Leader" of the Lakers and when Shaq left, the Lakers would be 25+ million under the cap with a possible lottery pick. That would be a better situation as they are in now.


I agree, I wish they would have just not traded Shaq and let him whine and complain all he wanted with hope that he would eventually just play ball, far fetched, perhaps but trading him away was a sad day for the lakers org.


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## tatahbenitez (Jun 18, 2004)

> Miami has lost the majority of its game against the West


So you're telling me that Miami cannot beat Phoenix in a seven game series, or they can't win againt Seattle in a seven game series? The only team, I think, that can beat Miami in a seven game series is San Antonio, but it will be a good series anyway if it happens. 





> I agree, I wish they would have just not traded Shaq and let him whine and complain all he wanted with hope that he would eventually just play ball, far fetched, perhaps but trading him away was a sad day for the lakers org.


Agreed.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

I don't think Miami can beat San Antonio in a 7 came series. Miami has lost to Seattle two out of two times this year, and they have lost to Phoenix in a blow out the only time they've played this year. Of course things are different in the playoffs, and I can't really say how well they would or would not play against Sea or Pho. I just think the West is still a greater conference than the East.


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## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

CDRacingZX6R said:


> I know that you must feel increadibly insulted by my words, but dont worry. Im talking about pippen, not you. So you dont have to get so sensitive that you lash out and say retarded things.


 My feelings were not hurt. It just kind of shocked me. Sorry for jumping on you for simply stating your opinion. I agree to disagree.


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

IV said:


> I used to be a Pippen antagonist, but I realized this man deserves respect. I do think we would be talking about Pippen even if he didn't play with MJ. Perhaps, Scottie would not have had the success throughout his career, but he would have been a great player none the less. If you watch footage of Pip when he was young, yes.... he did have mental lapses and make alot of mistake. And surely he learned alot from Mike and Phil or other on the team that made him a better player, but you could always see the potential in Pippen. He was very athletic, quick, pesty on defense, good passer, could see the court well and for the most part he played smart basketball, he just would make the type of mistakes alot of young players make, but improve on after being in the league for a while.
> 
> Re-evaluate your opinion of Scottie Pippen. If you do the research: watch him play, listen to comments about his play from other greats, read his resume, try and forget that he played with Mike(easier said than done), I bet you'll change your mind.



It's very possible that I might. I'll re-evaluate my opinon. Thank you for actually having a constructive post with reasons to back up your opinion, instead of taking my opinion personally and attacking me. It's refreshing. :cheers:


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## Darth Bryant (Feb 1, 2005)

-D! said:


> My feelings were not hurt. It just kind of shocked me. Sorry for jumping on you for simply stating your opinion. I agree to disagree.



It's all good. I get the same way when people say things like "Kobe is a Ball-hog", etc. :biggrin: So I know where your comming from.


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## Sánchez AF (Aug 10, 2003)

*I been watching around 80% of Lakers game And I have to admit it Im becoming a fan. I really like the New Challenge to have a championship team Without Shaq And I think this is going Well. Im looking in the future and I think looks well*


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Where did I say that Buss knew Kobe would be a Laker? I said he told Mitch to do whatever possible to get him to remain one, even trading Shaq and letting Phil go.


Then wouldn't that mean Jerry Buss is responsible for breaking up the Lakers? Hard to break up a team when you, uh, didn't ask for it to be broken up, right? 



> Q: Would Shaq's presence on the team affect your decision to stay?
> A: Yes, I'm tired of being a sidekick.
> 
> He's not saying there is no way he comes back if Shaq is here, but if you don't consider that a endorsement to trade Shaq than I don't see the point in continuing this conversation.


There really is no point in continuing a conversation if you can't acknowledge that it's possible that a vague one-liner wasn't the basis for breaking up a 3-peat/4-Finals NBA team. 



> You think he quit on his own? Why would he want to come back so soon then, huh?


Because he's old, tired, and needed a break. He just went on something like a two month vacation out of country. Coaching in the NBA isn't easy, especially for someone his age. 



> To be honest with you I'm not sure if Kobe really cared if Phil was here or not. I think Buss believed that the Lakers would have a stronger case of bringing Kobe back if he let Phil go based on their past conflicts, not based on Kobe's demands.


So again, how is any of this Kobe's fault when you yourself say Jerry Buss made the decisions, with Kobe not pulling any strings behind the scenes? You should have just said "Buss broke up the team and I'm pissed" in the first place. You'd have a case for Kobe breaking up the team if there weren't so much evidence to the contrary. Hell, Buss said just a few weeks ago that if Shaq had accepted his extension offer a year ago last February, that he might not have traded Shaq last summer, which only confirms that money (and it's consequences i.e. not coming to camp in shape) was a huge reason Shaq was traded.



> :laugh:
> 
> Test me my friend. Ask me anything. I could give you a scouting report of Reggie Jordan's stint here and why he was brought in. But I know you didn't believe that and you just like to attack people personally when debating hoops unfortunately.


I don't see how questioning how closely you follow a team is "attacking you personally". Personal stuff would be your family or friends, not how much you know about basketball. And from reading your replies to me so far, you're blaming Buss, yet for some reason blamed Kobe for the breakup in your original post a couple pages back, which is why I questioned you in the first place.



> I actually used to feel the same way, but then this summer not only did Shaq trash Kobe on his way out, but so did Phil, so did Malone.


Shaq trashes everyone, there's not a player in the league he hasn't trashed. He has trashed Phil before, too. 

So Phil trashed Kobe some in his book, but it wasn't nearly as bad as people made it out to be. A lot of it was opinion, as Phil said, and other coaches in his own book (most notably Tex Winters) disagreed with his assessments of Kobe and of the Lakers dynasty. Phil admits in his own book that he wasn't sure if he was being too hard on Kobe or not. 

Malone? Who cares about that spat. 



> And no one outside of Kobe trashed Shaq. So everyone hated Kobe and nobody outside of Kobe hated Shaq. Thats what framed my so-called "bias." HOWEVER I am willing to forgive if Kobe can deliver this team a contender with a little bit of help from Mitch. And I mean a little because this roster should be contending by next season if Kobe delivers.


Who's "everyone"? You have Shaq, a little of Phil and....Malone over a personal matter? Winters and Clemons have said a lot of flattering things about Kobe since they left the Lakers. So have Fisher and Horry. Hell, even Eddie Jones has said good things about Kobe this season, and Shaq is his teammate.


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## Tyrellaphonte (Feb 21, 2004)

I hate laker fans like these.... 

It makes me know why all the other fans hate us.

Its cuz of *****es like those "fans" who have already given up on *THEIR* team before we are even out of contention! WE ARE Still IN the playoffs right now. Grow up Lakers Fans, stop jumping on the bandwagon and be a true fan. 

My homie Yusef is the same way... last year he was Die-hard... once we lost the championship and he started stuff slippin away, he started to be one of your classic laker-haters.

And on behalf of all laker fans, I say F*** YOU to all the bandwagon B**ches


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## Tyrellaphonte (Feb 21, 2004)

SpeakerBoxxX said:


> *I been watching around 80% of Lakers game And I have to admit it Im becoming a fan. I really like the New Challenge to have a championship team Without Shaq And I think this is going Well. Im looking in the future and I think looks well*


ha, thats good to hear dawg!

this is comin from an ex-laker-hater


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

*i'll drink to that!*



CDRacingZX6R said:


> It's very possible that I might. I'll re-evaluate my opinon. Thank you for actually having a constructive post with reasons to back up your opinion, instead of taking my opinion personally and attacking me. It's refreshing. :cheers:


Man, I'll drink to anything :bsmile:

:cheers:


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

Southern Baller Teezy said:


> I hate laker fans like these....
> 
> It makes me know why all the other fans hate us.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately that is the character of some fans and all teams have fans like that. I don't like it either!


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