# The Search For A Point-Guard.....



## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Kirk Hinrich is supposedly available with the Bulls and would be an excellent fit with us. The problem of course is the trade and what the Bulls would want and whether we have those assets to exchange without hurting our team's ability to win. I think its almost a foregone conclusion that they'll draft Rose and all of their other positions are fairly strong (aside from maybe center). I do not think they'd be interested in current first round picks, nor would I entertain the thought of moving our pick for Hinrich. The only realistic option I could see them going for is a workable contract attached to a veteran backup PG (who can run) and future draft picks. That is something the Knicks definately can produce, so maybe we could jump into the Hinrich sweepstakes.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

TwinkieFoot said:


> Kirk Hinrich is supposedly available with the Bulls and would be an excellent fit with us. The problem of course is the trade and what the Bulls would want and whether we have those assets to exchange without hurting our team's ability to win. I think its almost a foregone conclusion that they'll draft Rose and all of their other positions are fairly strong (aside from maybe center). I do not think they'd be interested in current first round picks, nor would I entertain the thought of moving our pick for Hinrich. The only realistic option I could see them going for is a workable contract attached to a veteran backup PG (who can run) and future draft picks. That is something the Knicks definately can produce, so maybe we could jump into the Hinrich sweepstakes.


I think he'd(hinrich) be an excellent push guard like he was in college , plus he is a good defnder and and a gerally savvy all around player , hughes is also a decent player , especially if he is over his injury woes .

i think a good trade would be kirk, larry hughes and tyrus thomas for lee , marbury and malik rose , for them it would allow them a chance to sign a max free agent over next summer if any are available or trade for 1 one with their cap space.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Da Grinch said:


> I think he'd(hinrich) be an excellent push guard like he was in college , plus he is a good defnder and and a gerally savvy all around player , hughes is also a decent player , especially if he is over his injury woes .
> 
> i think a good trade would be kirk, larry hughes and tyrus thomas for lee , marbury and malik rose , for them it would allow them a chance to sign a max free agent over next summer if any are available or trade for 1 one with their cap space.


I'd be in favor of that trade. Although if Mayo is available Hughes is going to be brought in for almost nothing.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Not remotely fair....*

Tyrus Thomas has more upside than Lee (and you know I like Lee), Heinrich is much more valuable than Marbury, and Hughes is much more valuable than Rose. Why do the Bulls do this? I'd rather put in Randolph over Marbury, and give them Chandler, Nate instead of Lee. Add morris and get Dnic back.

Randolph
Chandler
Morris
Nate 
Rose


Tyrus Thomas
Heinrich
Dnic
Hughes


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

bball2223 said:


> I'd be in favor of that trade. Although if Mayo is available Hughes is going to be brought in for almost nothing.


Not necessarily. Hughes would be the ideal player to start ahead of Mayo to ease his transition into the league. Crawford and Richardson become trade assets which I believe is entirely possible and benefitial.


P.S., hell of an avatar. Who is that?


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Not remotely fair....*



alphaorange said:


> Tyrus Thomas has more upside than Lee (and you know I like Lee), Heinrich is much more valuable than Marbury, and Hughes is much more valuable than Rose. Why do the Bulls do this? I'd rather put in Randolph over Marbury, and give them Chandler, Nate instead of Lee. Add morris and get Dnic back.
> 
> Randolph
> Chandler
> ...



Tyrus Thomas is a bust waiting to happen, although I'll give him the proper amount of time before concluding that he is. I'd take David Lee over him anyday but could see what your getting at. I doubt they take Randolph considering they are looking to run and even brought in a former uptempo kind of player as coach. Financially, that move makes little sense as well because you'd be adding a player that doesn't fit AND be losing a capable player that runs your offense. Cap space and draft picks/young prospects would be the only things I think they'd be interested in in a trade for Hinrich. 


I do like the idea of bringing back Demetris Nichols from them.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Da Grinch said:


> I think he'd(hinrich) be an excellent push guard like he was in college , plus he is a good defnder and and a gerally savvy all around player , hughes is also a decent player , especially if he is over his injury woes .
> 
> i think a good trade would be kirk, larry hughes and tyrus thomas for lee , marbury and malik rose , for them it would allow them a chance to sign a max free agent over next summer if any are available or trade for 1 one with their cap space.



I like the reasoning behind that trade but I'm not sure if the Bulls would be interested. They have made subtle suggestions that they want to run the ball. As much as Marbury would be a rental, he can not do this and would likely cause problems splitting time with Rose (if that's who they draft). Rose is little more than financial flexibility and David Lee would be the only real gain in this trade. As much as Tyrus Thomas is a bust waiting to happen IMO, however, he should be a hell of a lot better at the 4 position running the ball than in a half-court set. This may mute the benefits of adding David Lee...and they'd still have Drew Gooden who you yourself thought would cause problems sharing time with David Lee in the past.

I think a backup veteran PG capable of starting, draft picks and a big man prospect is the way to go. Their weakest positions after this trade would involve the point and 5 which would explain the need for those players and picks buy them some time to not make the trade look like a total steal.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Run, yes......but*

You still need to have a DEPENDABLE scorer when the break isn't there. Thats why Shaq was brought to the Suns (one reason). Right now the Bulls have no one remotely close to Randolph in that regard. Gooden is OK but not THAT kind of scorer...he need to play off others. Zach is a guy that you can dump the ball into and get a basket or a foul. Curry can do that for us so Zach is very expendable. He has warts, yes...but he has value, too. I really believe we could be very good with a few moves. I like Heinrich but if we can't do it we will be lotto bound..more than likely...which means we have a shot at RUBIO, who I love as a pg. Its gonna take a couple of years but I think it can be done. Much depends on the resurrection of Eddy.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Run, yes......but*



alphaorange said:


> You still need to have a DEPENDABLE scorer when the break isn't there. Thats why Shaq was brought to the Suns (one reason). Right now the Bulls have no one remotely close to Randolph in that regard. Gooden is OK but not THAT kind of scorer...he need to play off others. Zach is a guy that you can dump the ball into and get a basket or a foul. Curry can do that for us so Zach is very expendable. He has warts, yes...but he has value, too. I really believe we could be very good with a few moves. I like Heinrich but if we can't do it we will be lotto bound..more than likely...which means we have a shot at RUBIO, who I love as a pg. Its gonna take a couple of years but I think it can be done. Much depends on the resurrection of Eddy.


I understand that but would you really want a guy like Randolph with a first time head coach? I liked him in Cleveland because Mike Brown is an already established and proven head coach but him with the Bulls spell disaster to me. I also do not like the idea of having Randolph being the best player on his team because of the responsibility it carries that he keeps showing time and time again he is not capable of handling. If we can do it, I say do it but I doubt the Bulls would want to.

As for Curry, I'm very interested in seeing how he'll develop in this new system. D'Antoni is certainly going to put him in different sets that he has not seen since coming into the league. Eddy has already shown the potential for a consistent jump shot 15ft away from the basket and I'm interested to see whether he can develop counter moves to them as well. This could open up our offensive game significantly because it would then permit players to get into the paint without worrying about Curry's defensive man being right there to rotate (and block the shot). Even better is that it makes Eddy an even more deadily player offensively. If we can make him look like something of a Boozer on the high block, with the ability to still play his deep post game, then I think the Knicks maybe able to say they got a steal.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

*Is Hindrich or TJ Ford the best starting PG for coach D'Antoni?* 

What alot of Knick-Fans refuse to look at this past season was how SF-Q.Richardson (30 mpg) and SF-Jefferies (18 mpg) performances did not help out either the Knicks Backcourt or Frontcourt players. Which is the SF-position duties on the court. 
Will coach D'Antoni let these two players do the sameting next season???


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Kiyaman said:


> *Is Hindrich or TJ Ford the best starting PG for coach D'Antoni?*
> 
> What alot of Knick-Fans refuse to look at this past season was how SF-Q.Richardson (30 mpg) and SF-Jefferies (18 mpg) performances did not help out either the Knicks Backcourt or Frontcourt players. Which is the SF-position duties on the court.
> Will coach D'Antoni let these two players do the sameting next season???


Ford would be the better candidate for the type of gameplan D'Antoni ran in Phoenix but Hinrich is the better fit for the Knicks. We still have the opportunity to land an offguard that can create a shot for himself-Mayo or Ellis- which make's Ford's contribution as a pass first PG a little mute. We'd need a PG capable of doing other things on the floor such as hitting jumpers, playing defense against the opposing teams best guard and rebounding which Ford does not do better than Hinrich.


In an uptempo offense, Richardson and Jefferies become all the more effective. Jefferies is a 4 in this sort of system and will be getting much easier shots around the basket. Richardson will have the green light to shoot the ball and playing a little in the post. I could see both players enjoying better seasons where they'd be key contributors for our team....but I'd still move them preferably to Cleveland for cap space. We have other players that can do that already.


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

NO MORE TRADING WITH BULLS! I refuse to accept anymore of Bull's leftovers and getting ripped of by them just becaues John Paxson knows he has the upperhand.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Gotham2krazy said:


> NO MORE TRADING WITH BULLS! I refuse to accept anymore of Bull's leftovers and getting ripped of by them just becaues John Paxson knows he has the upperhand.


How do you figure Kirk Hinrich (competing for a spot on Team USA) is a leftover in any trade?

Besides, what trade did they really rob us in? No one traded in the Jamal Crawford deal is still with the Bulls and the only player of worth they've gotten in the Eddy Curry deal is Joakim Noah who is nothing more than a high energy player (but a very effective one).


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## Gotham2krazy (Nov 22, 2005)

TwinkieFoot said:


> How do you figure Kirk Hinrich (competing for a spot on Team USA) is a leftover in any trade?
> 
> Besides, what trade did they really rob us in? No one traded in the Jamal Crawford deal is still with the Bulls and the only player of worth they've gotten in the Eddy Curry deal is Joakim Noah who is nothing more than a high energy player (but a very effective one).


Well, with that one Curry deal, they benefitted greatly from our woes by getting two high draft picks. Along with that, we just scooped up whatever garbage the Bulls felt they didn't need (i.e. Eddy Curry and now possibly Kirk Hinrich). I never said Kirk Hinrich wasn't good, but he's become a leftover because he's unwanted by the Bulls because they feel they can do better. For example, would you throw out a 42 inch plasma television because a newer model just came out? But I guess one man's trash is another man's treasure... :whoknows:


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Gotham2krazy said:


> Well, with that one Curry deal, they benefitted greatly from our woes by getting two high draft picks. Along with that, we just scooped up whatever garbage the Bulls felt they didn't need (i.e. Eddy Curry and now possibly Kirk Hinrich). I never said Kirk Hinrich wasn't good, but he's become a leftover because he's unwanted by the Bulls because they feel they can do better. For example, would you throw out a 42 inch plasma television because a newer model just came out? But I guess one man's trash is another man's treasure... :whoknows:



I understand what you mean but you really think that Hinrich is going to stand idolly by just to be Rose's backup? He's too good a player and I doubt the Bulls would even want to keep him around at that price tag even if he agreed to that role.


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## bingbearcats (Aug 30, 2006)

The Knicks should do some research with Shuan Livingston and see how he's progressing. If they could get him for a really cheap price, he'd be a risk maybe worth looking into.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

*What number pick was Deng selected in the draft by the Bulls?* 

Whatever, it was the backcourt of Hindrich & Crawford that assured the Bulls of that pick. 
Are we looking for another lottery pick in 2009 draft?


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

As a Bulls fan I'd rather have Hinrich be a 6th man or starting SG next to Rose than trade him for the packages I've seen proposed here.

It's also interesting to hear that some people have written Tyrus Thomas off as a bust, yet think Joakim Noah has value... they basically averaged the exact same numbers, only Thomas is a year younger and much more athletic (which is no slight to Noah's athleticism). Personally, I think they both currently have value as defenders, and will improve on the offensive end. 

Anyway, we may finally be at the point where the Knicks and Bulls aren't compatible roster-wise... I can't really see anything you guys have that we'd want... we need a low post presence, but it'd be kind of hard to take Eddy Curry back after the whole heart thing. Plus, he's fat and can't guard a single NBA player.


added on edit:



Kiyaman said:


> What number pick was Deng selected in the draft by the Bulls?
> 
> Whatever, it was the backcourt of Hindrich & Crawford that assured the Bulls of that pick.
> Are we looking for another lottery pick in 2009 draft?


Deng was chosen with 7th with a pick we got from Phoenix via trade... we used our pick on Ben Gordon at #3.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

bingbearcats said:


> The Knicks should do some research with Shuan Livingston and see how he's progressing. If they could get him for a really cheap price, he'd be a risk maybe worth looking into.


You read my mind. The Clippers could use a guy like Marbury who could help them win immediately, so this is how we could bring in Livingston. Livingston, Tim Thomas and other irrelevant role players would work for me.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Kiyaman said:


> *What number pick was Deng selected in the draft by the Bulls?*
> 
> Whatever, it was the backcourt of Hindrich & Crawford that assured the Bulls of that pick.
> Are we looking for another lottery pick in 2009 draft?


I'm pretty sure Scott Skiles not being the coach at the beginning of training camp and the Bulls having a talented but unseasoned roster that had not made the playoffs for several years had nothing to do with it.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Dornado said:


> As a Bulls fan I'd rather have Hinrich be a 6th man or starting SG next to Rose than trade him for the packages I've seen proposed here.
> 
> It's also interesting to hear that some people have written Tyrus Thomas off as a bust, yet think Joakim Noah has value... they basically averaged the exact same numbers, only Thomas is a year younger and much more athletic (which is no slight to Noah's athleticism). Personally, I think they both currently have value as defenders, and will improve on the offensive end.
> 
> ...


Statistics certainly tell a big part of the story but not all. Noah's length, seasoning in college, and bball IQ actually make him the better player. At 6-8 Thomas is a tweener that has skill but certainly not enough to be a 3 or enough height/strength to be a 4. As much as both players are destined to be nothing more than energy players, Noah's knowledge of the game allow him to utilize that sort of game better (which does not show up in stats). It's more what you see is what you get with Thomas. Unfortunately for him, at his height, this means a career of being Stromile Swift.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

Dornado said:


> Deng was chosen with 7th with a pick we got from Phoenix via trade... we used our pick on Ben Gordon at #3.


*So your saying that the Backcourt pair of Hindrich & Crawford lead the Bulls to a successful Lottery Pick (3). *
And the next season without Crawford on the roster, and just 3 new rookies added the Bulls made the Playoffs. 

If Paxon was not Isiah Thomas shadow, and Skiles knew a little something about coaching, the Bulls would've been the young team in the East to beat for the next 6 years. 

The signing of Ben Wallace was just as stupid as the Knicks signing Jerome James. Tyson Chandler was young and quick, he gave the Bulls more than what Ben Wallace gave the Pistons. 
The trade of Tyson Chandler for PJ Brown was dummer than the Q.Rich for Kurt Thomas and the KVH for Tim Thomas. 

The Bulls lost their young scoring Center Curry to the Knicks, but they had a young respected defensive (shotblocking) C/F-Tyson Chandler. 
Everyone knew the missing link to the Bulls team was another scoring Bigman at the Center or PF to open things up for SF-Deng and hustling SF-Nocioni. The Backcourt was straight with Hindrich, Gordon, and Pargo. 

The addition of PF/SF-Tyrus Thomas athletcism, PF-Noah hustling, Defensive PF-Ben Wallace, and veteran PF-PJ Brown, are rebounding frontcourt Players you get if you still have a 28 mpg C-Eddy Curry on the team to score 15 to 20 points a game. There is no consistent 15 points per game scorers in any of these frontcourt players. 

*It's not a hard task to find out that Paxon is clueless at his job.* 
I can bet my last Dollar that Paxon dont go after PF-Brand who scoring ability would make alot of players improve on the roster...


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Kiyaman said:


> *So your saying that the Backcourt pair of Hindrich & Crawford lead the Bulls to a successful Lottery Pick (3). *
> And the next season without Crawford on the roster, and just 3 new rookies added the Bulls made the Playoffs.
> 
> If Paxon was not Isiah Thomas shadow, and Skiles knew a little something about coaching, the Bulls would've been the young team in the East to beat for the next 6 years.
> ...


Explain to me how Hinrich or Crawford, in your mind, was responsible for the Bulls shortcomings? You yourself even alluded to the fact that the Bulls added two pretty good lottery picks that year NBA ready and coming from prestigious basketball program (which should create significant improvement). You think that that upgrade in talent might have made the difference? Do you think the Bulls actually being able to finally add a solid role player in Nicioni had nothing to do with it? Do you think Scott Skiles having a full season to impliment his style of play had nothing to do with it? Do you think the Chicago Bulls finally gaining some sort of personnel stability for the first time had nothing to do with it?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Kiyaman said:


> *So your saying that the Backcourt pair of Hindrich & Crawford lead the Bulls to a successful Lottery Pick (3). *
> And the next season without Crawford on the roster, and just 3 new rookies added the Bulls made the Playoffs.
> 
> If Paxon was not Isiah Thomas shadow, and Skiles knew a little something about coaching, the Bulls would've been the young team in the East to beat for the next 6 years.
> ...


i hope you dont really believe that crawford and hinrich were responsible for the season.

john paxson was responsible , he basically tanked the season when he traded jalen rose and donyell marshall for jerome williams and antonio davis.

the small forwards were for most of the season linton johnson the 3rd and ronald dupree , scootie pippen and kendall gill were injured or inneffective for most of the year .

tyson chandler got hurt in november and was out or played hurt for most of the season.

crawford and hinrich were actually the bright spots on that team.


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