# Raptors - Vegas Summer League Discussion



## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

So Mar Mar played his first competitive game for the Raptors last night totalling 10 points, 5 rebounds

He looked good with a semi-polished mid range game and some nice back door cuts, he really needs to work on his dribble if he wants to become an elite 2 in the L. His defense looked solid while guarding Ammo (who let's not forget is a crafty little bugger and probably the best matchup Mar Mar has ever found himself against). Along with his dribbling he needs to work on his range as he went 0-3 from down town. Highlights included a lovely alley-oop from Ukic to Mar Mar and a quite disgusting throwdown by Brent Petway. Ukic ran the court well and dished some nice passes while showing an improved shot. POB dominated in the paint on offense but was a liability on the defensive end. 

Oh and the Raptors lost the game by one point. Mar Mar missed the game winner :champagne:

Mar Mar highlight reel, quite short

Game Highlights incl. Brent Petway throwdown

If the second set of highlights don't load instantly scroll down and you'll see the game in one of the highlight boxes. 

Next game tonight against Pistons and looking forward to seeing what more DD can bring.


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## vinsanity77 (May 1, 2006)

But... didn't Ammo score 24 pts against DD?


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

I was not that impressed with Derozan, he was average at best. Morrison looked really good, I hope he gets a chance with the Lakers tis year. Ukic shot the ball well and was solid, Douby had a quick start and played OK, I think he will have one or two games where he goes for 25. I did not get to see POB play defense, was he that bad, he had 5 boards, 15 points and a block in just under 30 minutes. link to box http://www.nba.com/summerleague2009/games/boxscore.jsp?gameId=1520900003


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

POB was ugly on defense. He looked lost and had a ton of points scored on him. His rebounding looked suspect to me, his awareness was what let him down I think.

Why weren't you impressed with DD? I think for a one and done college player his mid-range game was really impressive, he ran the court well, he had some nerves to begin with but looked pretty good to me come the end of the game.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

DD never got to the line once in 30 minutes...not a good sign for a guy that is supposed to be a great athlete. It did not seem like he used his advantage vs. Morrison by driving hard on him. It is only game 1 and I am not writing him off, I just thought he may be more aggressive attacking the rim.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Smush Parker looked good.....he is a bid of a problem Child, but he may be a steal of a pick-up.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

billfindlay10 said:


> DD never got to the line once in 30 minutes...not a good sign for a guy that is supposed to be a great athlete. It did not seem like he used his advantage vs. Morrison by driving hard on him. It is only game 1 and I am not writing him off, I just thought he may be more aggressive attacking the rim.


Did you see the game? I'll admit his first step looked a little slow but he was driving. Admittedly he would stop the drive half way through, spin and attempt a shot. He really seemed to settle down in the 4th so hopefully he takes that into tonights game, and we'll see him tear through for some nice drives. Did you see his attempted putback? That would have been amazing. 

DD did some nice things that were cancelled out by off the ball falls too. 

Smush has always looked good IMO, I remember him playing for the Lakers and having some really nice stat games. Would be an adequate pick-up by BC. 

Any thoughts on Petway? And THAT slam?


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Oh and forgot to mention Mar Mar also made 3/4 backdoor cuts where he left Ammo and the Lakers clueless to where he was, he just wasn't fed the ball.


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## billfindlay10 (Jan 24, 2003)

Porn_Player said:


> Did you see the game? I'll admit his first step looked a little slow but he was driving. Admittedly he would stop the drive half way through, spin and attempt a shot. He really seemed to settle down in the 4th so hopefully he takes that into tonights game, and we'll see him tear through for some nice drives. Did you see his attempted putback? That would have been amazing.
> 
> DD did some nice things that were cancelled out by off the ball falls too.
> 
> ...


DD needs to bang his way to the hoop, not bail and pull back....that is what I was talking about. 
Petway's dunk on the baseline was nice, but I am not sure he will find a spot on our roster. 
SMush had 2 good years in LA, not a big assist guy, but shot well enough and has good size for a point guard. He is not a bad ball hawk as well.
I thought Carl English was supposed to be on the roster....anyone know what happened there?


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

DD look alright to me but I tend to take summer league with a grain of salt cause of the level of players that are involved preseason will be the real measuring stick to me


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Second game another loss. 

DD with 20points, 4rbs and a block. Quincy with game high 21 points. 

Didn't see this game but the reviews of DD are glowing. He didn't drive all that much but kids are drooling over his midrange game and supposedly he took in what the coaches had to say from yesterday and adapted his game today, which is nothing but a positive sign. No turnovers neither.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

need a youtube vid


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Game Highlights


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## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

i don't know about you guys. I'm happy about Derozan's athleticism, I'm happy he can score, I'm happy he can grab boards. 

What I don't like? ZERO assists in 2 games. What's up with that? That's one thing I was very worried about when we drafted him. Can he find the open man to get the best available shot? Need more BBall IQ than that.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

i already said that derozan has a very underrated midrange game. espn analysts were dumb saying he needed to work on his shooting. it's his 3pt shooting that's weak but his midrange is gold. that said, he needs to work on his dibble. the only reason he's not able to attack the rim at will is his lack of confidence in his dribble, or at least that's how i see it. he's working on it though. his midrange game was constantly improving throughout his college season so i don't see why his dribble won't improve.


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## WillFlight! (Jul 11, 2009)

c_dog said:


> i already said that derozan has a very underrated midrange game. espn analysts were dumb saying he needed to work on his shooting. it's his 3pt shooting that's weak but his midrange is gold. that said, he needs to work on his dibble. the only reason he's not able to attack the rim at will is his lack of confidence in his dribble, or at least that's how i see it. he's working on it though. his midrange game was constantly improving throughout his college season so i don't see why his dribble won't improve.


Derozan has a good 10-15 foot game, it is that 16-22 foot range that needs work. It depends on what you call midrange I guess. His curls around the free throw are very good, his spot ups from 18 are questionable.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

changv10 said:


> i don't know about you guys. I'm happy about Derozan's athleticism, I'm happy he can score, I'm happy he can grab boards.
> 
> What I don't like? ZERO assists in 2 games. What's up with that? That's one thing I was very worried about when we drafted him. Can he find the open man to get the best available shot? Need more BBall IQ than that.


Do you realise in last nights game there was 9 whole assists for the Raptors squad the ENTIRE game? ... Summer League is all about finding your own shot as is very evident if you watch the games. Players are only giving up the rock if they blow by a screen and it's not open or there dribble isn't working so they look to dish. 

We won't be able to judge Mar Mars passing until the season starts I'm afraid.


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## Onions Baby (Mar 12, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvqdEIzI_1w

Heir Canada.


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## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

Porn_Player said:


> Do you realise in last nights game there was 9 whole assists for the Raptors squad the ENTIRE game? ... Summer League is all about finding your own shot as is very evident if you watch the games. Players are only giving up the rock if they blow by a screen and it's not open or there dribble isn't working so they look to dish.
> 
> We won't be able to judge Mar Mars passing until the season starts I'm afraid.


That's just poor ball movement from our team overall. Didn't Marcus Williams get 17 assists in 1 game? Basketball is a complete team game, not playing 1 on 1. Assists are crucial, and I'm just worried he's had 1 assist in 3 games, which I don't think I'm being unrealistically concerned over it. In my opinion, assists should come naturally for players that have good basketball IQ. 

Though Ukic has been a decent scorer, I'm not impressed by his assists numbers if he's planning to log some minutes at the point. In the same way, O'Bryant can score, but can't get enough boards for his size.


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## WillFlight! (Jul 11, 2009)

Ukic and Douby have looked decent, Patrick O can score, but has been dissapointing on the glass. Derozan has been average, but shows some flashes. All in all this will be a nice build up to preseason


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Another win, another crazy i'm addicted to the ball 4th quarter performance from Douby. He got it done though even if his stat line doesn't look to impressive. Roko was very up and down, a few air balls but other times he looked awesome. Highlights are on nba.com for anybody interested.

Derozan with a really nice game 20pts, 2asts, 2stls, 5rbs. 

Next up Brandon Jennings, should be some trash talk between him and DD tonight!


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

WillFlight! said:


> Ukic and Douby have looked decent, Patrick O can score, but has been dissapointing on the glass. Derozan has been average, but shows some flashes. All in all this will be a nice build up to preseason


i'm not too concerned with o'bryant's rebounding. he looked like a good rebounder filling in a couple games late last season, and even when he didn't get the rebound he did a good job boxing out. i've been saying that i like him over rasho and raptors need to continue to build his confidence. guy has the tools to be a 9/9 kind of solid center. if what you say about his offense game is true(i'll see it when i believe it) then he could be as good as gortat. i honestly don't know about his offensive game other than seeing him hit the occasional jumper so i'll reserve judgement.

of our bench warmers, douby, o'bryant are two guys who i think have the best chance at becoming solid role players. i wouldn't mind seeing them take up some of ukic/rasho/evans' minutes, not at all. in fact o'bryant needs to be ahead of the rotation over rasho by the 2nd half of the season.


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## WillFlight! (Jul 11, 2009)

c_dog said:


> i'm not too concerned with o'bryant's rebounding. he looked like a good rebounder filling in a couple games late last season, *and even when he didn't get the rebound he did a good job boxing out.* i've been saying that i like him over rasho and raptors need to continue to build his confidence. guy has the tools to be a 9/9 kind of solid center. if what you say about his offense game is true(i'll see it when i believe it) then he could be as good as gortat. i honestly don't know about his offensive game other than seeing him hit the occasional jumper so i'll reserve judgement.
> 
> of our bench warmers, douby, o'bryant are two guys who i think have the best chance at becoming solid role players. i wouldn't mind seeing them take up some of ukic/rasho/evans' minutes, not at all. in fact o'bryant needs to be ahead of the rotation over rasho by the 2nd half of the season.


Funny how this is OK for O'Bryant, but Bargnani did this all last season and he still gets bashed for only getting 5-6 boards per.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

WillFlight! said:


> Funny how this is OK for O'Bryant, but Bargnani did this all last season and he still gets bashed for only getting 5-6 boards per.


o'bryant didn't get a 10 million extension and isn't expected to do much. obvously you expect a lot more from your starting C than your 3rd string center. that said, o'bryant is still a significantly better rebounder than bargnani. bargnani hardly boxes out his man. he's more of a just standing still and waiting for the ball to fall into his hands kind of guy.


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## WillFlight! (Jul 11, 2009)

c_dog said:


> o'bryant did get a 10 million extension and is never expected to do much. obvously you expect a lot more from your starting C than your 3rd string center. that said, o'bryant is still a significantly better rebounder than bargnani. bargnani hardly boxes out his man. he's more of a just standing still and waiting for the ball to fall into his hands kind of guy.


Now I know you are blind to how Andrea plays the game. He did a very good job boxing out this past season. I will say that after he boxes out he does not pursue the ball, but to say he does not box out at all is ridiculous and proves to me that you either don't watch as many games as you pretend to, or you simply dislike the guy and spit untruths to further your hate.

You do realize that O'Bryant was the #9 pick in the NBA 2006 draft lottery. I would expect more from the #9 pick than being a 3rd string center. I would like Patrick to develop and think that this is a crucial season for him. He needs to get tougher, he will never be a Gortat, he does not play the same banging game, what he can be is a Rahso in his prime. Average at all skills and able to play minutes without hurting the team.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Seriously debating with c-dog is pointless, he sees everything through his own eyes and won't budge. 

Anybody want to actually discuss the vegas games? DD's shot is wet, he is so smooth on the court ala Parker. The more and more I see of him the more I think he could actually be our starting 2. I know it's just summer league but I already prefer him over Delfino Das Chucker. His explosiveness comes and goes, he can get up there with the best of them and throw down some sick dunks but his first step seems quite slow. I think he bulked up too quick at College and didn't maintain his flexibilty/agility, hopefully the Raptors staff can improve that. His man to man D is intense which is good to see, he struggles with his team D but Iavaroni is the master of it and should bring him along quite nicely.


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## WillFlight! (Jul 11, 2009)

Porn_Player said:


> Seriously debating with c-dog is pointless, he sees everything through his own eyes and won't budge.
> 
> Anybody want to actually discuss the vegas games? DD's shot is wet, he is so smooth on the court ala Parker. The more and more I see of him the more I think he could actually be our starting 2. I know it's just summer league but I already prefer him over Delfino Das Chucker. His explosiveness comes and goes, he can get up there with the best of them and throw down some sick dunks but his first step seems quite slow. I think he bulked up too quick at College and didn't maintain his flexibilty/agility, hopefully the Raptors staff can improve that. His man to man D is intense which is good to see, he struggles with his team D but Iavaroni is the master of it and should bring him along quite nicely.


I have only watched 1 complete game and the rest I have caught on hilights. Derozan has had a great 15 footer, but to say his shot has been wet like AP is over-hyping it a bit. He shoots the foul line jumper of a curl as well as anyone, but he does not spot up at 20 feet or shoot the corner 3 ball at all. He has looked good in transition finishing dunks left and right handed (I like that) and has shown a decent set of hands catching a lob and laying it up with a soft touch. 

The trouble with having DD start it that the offense will not be running plays for him and he will be relied on to keep the floor open for Bargs, Bosh and Hedo, a shooter does that better than a slasher. Derozan may be better suited off the bench early as he can be a more focal point of the offense and get more touches. Delfino (if he comes) is a better shooter and ball mover and to me fits with the starters better.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Sorry to clarify I meant DeMarksmans shot was money in the mid-range and not from 3pt land (which he hasn't been shooting all that much)

You see his left handed oop finish? That was great to see. You've got a pretty good grasp on DD (well it's very similar to mine so must be perfect haha) .. 

We already have players that will stretch the floor with there ability to shoot Bargs, Jose and Hedo (even Bosh as he has pretty amazing range) will adding another camper in Delfino be beneficial? I see your point in that it will create space for others but I'd rather have a slasher and somebody that can cause trouble closer to the basket than downtown.


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## WillFlight! (Jul 11, 2009)

I feel that it would be to easy for Derozan's defender to leave him a double off....just my thought. If he were in the second unit he would be running his man off screens and not giving him any time to double. I just think that getting Demar touches with the second unit would work better for his development than being the 5th option with the starters.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Yeah I see where you're coming from but if Bargs continues to play so far out from the basket Hedo is gonna get forced inside which isn't his best game. I'm sure Triano will figure something out. 

Evans setting monster screens for D2 to curl around shall be a joy to watch all year ..


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## changv10 (Apr 25, 2005)

Here's what they had to say about 'Heir Canada' on ESPN:

DeMar DeRozan is far more polished than advertised. He uses his quickness to build his game. As Mike Moreau said in David Thorpe's twitter thread, "Demar DeRozan really comes off the curl with speed, balance and elevation-very controlled. Will come off a decade's worth of pindowns." He also rarely takes a bad shot -- uncommon among rookies and in Summer League, and particularly uncommon among rookies in Summer League. 

I like that he doesn't take a bad shot, that's high bball IQ. But then why are his assists low? I guess he will pass it out if he doesn't have the right shot available, which is good news. 

Finishing ambidextriously, running the floor hard, good midrange game, good balance and air-time ... I'm happy we drafted this kid now (i admit i didn't want us to get him initially thinking he'll be a bust ... but I guess we'll see and so far he seems to be proving me wrong, best player available at 9, likes T.O. and genuinely talented).


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Full highlights of D2 from the Raptors v Suns SL Game, Enjoy!

@ changv, I'm the same, I didn't think D2's game was anything like it's turned out to be. I am a very happy Raptor fan before this season though, quite the transformation as I was ready to punch BC midway through last year.

Will probably get slammed for this, but some of the things he does remind me of Paul Pierce..


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## WillFlight! (Jul 11, 2009)

Porn_Player said:


> Full highlights of D2 from the Raptors v Suns SL Game, Enjoy!
> 
> @ changv, I'm the same, I didn't think D2's game was anything like it's turned out to be. I am a very happy Raptor fan before this season though, quite the transformation as I was ready to punch BC midway through last year.
> 
> Will probably get slammed for this, but some of the things he does remind me of Paul Pierce..


I think Pierce creates a little better than Demar, but I can see a little of his game there.


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

james johnson has similar game to pp..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKKq...eague-highlights.html&feature=player_embedded


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

James Johnson has been impressing me each and every game. Looks like a really solid SF, not to mention he is a scary *** dude with his fighting ability. Isn't he a bit older than every other rookie though? He took a year out or something for growth. Atleast I think it was him.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Demar is not as athletic as Vince, but the similarities are there, especially in the way he shoots. Even the spin move into the lane is very Vince like. Still has some work to do as far as passing goes to close up the gap. Good prospect.


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## WillFlight! (Jul 11, 2009)

Andre Iguodala anyone? He started off with with two decent years in the NBA before making the jump to an 18 ppg scorer. Not a great 3 point shooter but solid enough, good rebounder and picks up steals.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Raptors win their final summer league game. Douby with the game winner. D2 was the best I have see him, a few massive dunks, oops, slick shooting. 

Looking forward to the highlight package.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

you guys think it's hard to argue with me because unlike you guys i don't see things with raptors homer goggles. i'll admit i dislike bargnani, but only because he's a bad basketball player. for all i know he could be a great person but from a basketball standpoint, he's a huge disappointment. it's not like my dislike is unwarranted. i was all for supporting him the first couple of seasons but it's clear to me now that he'll never been a poor rebounding mehmet okur.

raptors didn't pick o'bryant at 9. that was somebody else's mistake. raptors signed o'bryant as a "low risk, high reward" project... o'bryant has shown a lot of promise as a 3rd string center(i believe he could be a solid backup over rasho in time), than bargnani as a starter.

raptors have some nice players here and there but they're far from being one of the more talented teams in the league. i think every criticism i've given on raptors players have been constructive. i just don't see bargnani as a 10mil star player for this team. i hardly see him as a starting center in the nba, period. he can shoot pretty well for a bigman but that's where is all ends. with regards to bargnani boxing out, i've seen him "try" to box out but more often than not he's the one being boxed out by opposing player, rather than the other way around. dude's just a horrible rebounder. i'm surprised there are so many fans on this forum who think bargnani is still going to be a star. to me, BC signed bargnani not because he deserved it, but because he thought if he gave bargnani a big contract it would have somehow justified his picking him #1 overall, and sell the idea to raptors fans that the franchise is in good hands. in BC's mind, even he knows bargnani has been a huge disappointment.

enough about bargs though, we have had enough discussions on him. i fully expect DD to be a stud. i think the kid has a lot of potential. worst case scenario is mickael pietrus, but i think if the raptors bring him along the right way that he can definitely be be the star swingman this team has missed since VC/T-mac. i've said before the draft i like this kid and that he was working on his game so that he was already much much better than those scouting reports were saying. even during predraft workouts he was already looking much more fluid than he did in college and was automatic from midrange. i watched some workout vidoes of him and other top prospects, and his jumpshot was a lot better than blake griffin's, or any of the top wings(eg. clark, JJ). his left hand was a weakness in high school but he was also working on it so that he's now able to finish with both hands. the kid has a great attitude and great work ethics.. he's got that drive to make himself better and dedicate himself to working on his game everyday. i really like that pic.


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

^POB is so garbage and will never be as good as rasho.. for a big for his length and size he has awful positioning and always gets abused down low..


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## WillFlight! (Jul 11, 2009)

kirk_2003 said:


> ^POB is so garbage and will never be as good as rasho.. for a big for his length and size he has awful positioning and always gets abused down low..


Not according to c_dog. but we all see things through homer goggles. It must be the goggles that had Bargnani improve his points per game, rebounds per game, blocks per game, 3 point field goal percentage, and overall field goal percentage, it could not be the fact that he worked hard on his game over the summer or that he had some corrective surgery....it must be the goggles. 

A guy who raves about Derozan's potential and then says worst case he is a Mickael Pietrus, does he even realize how pedestrian Pietrus is? Was that a compliment? 6 years in the league and his best season came in an inflated statistic filled year on the Golden State Warriors, he has never played a full season and there are 50 guys like him floating around.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

Pietrus is absolutely not a bad "worst case scenario". If DeRozan becomes an above average man defender who can finish in transition and hit open shots, he will have certainly been worth the ninth-overall pick (my opinion, of course). I think c-dog's assessment is actually quite optimistic.

I agree with him being a Pietrus-like player with his ceiling pretty much being Vince. Regarding Bargnani, I just do not care for the way he plays at all. That being said, a contract at $10 million per year is really not so unreasonable for him. He is still a young big that is definitely of a starting calibre and $10 mil appears to be right around market value for such a player.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

To be as good as Vince, he'd have to show he has a high bball IQ and is dedicated to working on his game. A lot of people in Raptorland like to bash the guy, but you dont get that good offensively just based on talent. There's no offensive move in the game Vince cant pull off.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

WillFlight! said:


> Not according to c_dog. but we all see things through homer goggles. It must be the goggles that had Bargnani improve his points per game, rebounds per game, blocks per game, 3 point field goal percentage, and overall field goal percentage, it could not be the fact that he worked hard on his game over the summer or that he had some corrective surgery....it must be the goggles.
> 
> A guy who raves about Derozan's potential and then says worst case he is a Mickael Pietrus, does he even realize how pedestrian Pietrus is? Was that a compliment? 6 years in the league and his best season came in an inflated statistic filled year on the Golden State Warriors, he has never played a full season and there are 50 guys like him floating around.


it's pretty easy to put up stats when you're given the green light. bargnani is a pretty good shooter and he can certainly put up points if you tell him to let it fly everytime he touches the ball. a guy called joel crawford(i think that was his name) put up 18/9 type numbers for the hawks when shareef was traded. you're thinking "who the heck is this crawford guy?" and i say that's exactly my point. crawford retired due to acl tear but he was a pro who played hard. he was, however, never more than a solid backup in the nba, and because the hawks had literally no nba talent caliber player at the time, he was their only option. he put up good stats, but the hawks were getting blown out every game. he was a good stats guy because of his situation, not because he was that good.

bargnani has more talent than crawford, but he's in a similar situation where the coach doesn't care if he gets good looks or bad looks, or play within the teams system as long as he's getting minutes. for 2 seasons he played within a system under sam mitch, he failed. sam mitch was fired in part because bc wanted a coach who would play bargnani and let him do whatever he wants, unconditionally. sure he's putting up better stats now, but he's essentially the same player. now he's gotten bigger, and his post defense has improved, but that's minimal improvement over 3 years time. if the raptors had a system instead of being a lottery team just letting their players run wild, how good would andrea be? not much better than he was under smitch i don't think.

edit: btw, there was a thread in the general forum which was listing all the bad contracts handed out this summer. surprise surprise that andrea was one of the top picks until varejao signed his. the fact is nobody in the nba has a high opinion of bargnani except for certain raptors fans. i honestly believe that even bc himself has been disappointed in bargs but what's a gm to do? admit his faults and lose ticket sells(due to lack of talent and competitiveness), or make fans believe the franchise actually holds a good player and that the franchise is in great shape to make noise in the playoffs? people think gm's job is to field the best team possible, but over all things, the gm's job is ultimately to put fans in seats. you can make a judgement for yourself, whether you think bargnani is a really good player worthy of being a star on this team, or just a glorified average player used to sell tickets. it's not the first time the franchise has done this--chris bosh is a pseudo-franchise player himself.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> bargnani has more talent than crawford, but he's in a similar situation where the coach doesn't care if he gets good looks or bad looks, or play within the teams system as long as he's getting minutes. for 2 seasons he played within a system under sam mitch, he failed. sam mitch was fired in part because bc wanted a coach who would play bargnani and let him do whatever he wants, unconditionally. sure he's putting up better stats now, but he's essentially the same player. now he's gotten bigger, and his post defense has improved, but that's minimal improvement over 3 years time. if the raptors had a system instead of being a lottery team just letting their players run wild, how good would andrea be? not much better than he was under smitch i don't think.


I think this isn't a knock on Bargnani but rather on how Mitchell failed at developing young players. If you look at Bargnani's game before/after Mitchell was fired, the main thing that jumped out at you is his confidence level. A big part of being a good player is the mental aspect of the game. I don't care how good of a player you are you will be terrible when you lack confidence, and that was Bargnani's problem especially in the 2nd year. Now that he is more confident, he is taking his time on offense and not putting his head down and drive like in the past. 

He still has long ways to go from being anything close to a star in the league but in my opinion the Mitchell firing was a good push in the right direction.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> I think this isn't a knock on Bargnani but rather on how Mitchell failed at developing young players. If you look at Bargnani's game before/after Mitchell was fired, the main thing that jumped out at you is his confidence level. A big part of being a good player is the mental aspect of the game. I don't care how good of a player you are you will be terrible when you lack confidence, and that was Bargnani's problem especially in the 2nd year. Now that he is more confident, he is taking his time on offense and not putting his head down and drive like in the past.
> 
> He still has long ways to go from being anything close to a star in the league but in my opinion the Mitchell firing was a good push in the right direction.


was it because of smitch's inability to develop andrea or barg's soft mentality that prevented him from playing well? i agree that bargnani played better in part because he gained confidence, but i thought smith did the best he could while trying to make the team competitive. he gave andrea plenty of tough love, gave him encouragement and minutes when he was playing well, andrea just kept sulking on the bench. jay has definitely given bargnani a lot more freedom now, but that's made bargnani a jump shot happy chucker. is that really helping him along his development? bargnani's post defense improved under smith during his 2nd season, and that was the most significant improvement he's made since entering the league. he was given fair oppurtunity under smith to blossom, he just failed. i don't have any high hopes for bargnani anymore. him and bosh are the top 2 most disappointing players.


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## WillFlight! (Jul 11, 2009)

Sam had Bargnani rotating through 3 positions, no young player can find a groove and settle in when you never know what your role is. Once Bargnani was inserted as a center full time he really settled in. His post defense was much better in year 3 than the first two, credit that to Sam if you want, I credit it to the big man camps he put himself in to improve that aspect of his game. I agree there are better players out there than Andrea, but he is on the team that I cheer for so I hope only for success. What is the point of being so negative when the guy has come off a decent year where he showed improvement in all the key aspects of his game. If Bargs comes out this season and does not show us any more improvement I will be dissappointed and will be on the look to move him. If he comes out and continues development than all the complainers need to just suck it up and come to the realization that Bargs is a legit starting center in the NBA and part of teh future of the franchise.


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## WillFlight! (Jul 11, 2009)

AS for Chris Crawford from the Hawks, he had a decent 03/04 season, but his stats were not all that inflated. He did have a good run when Reef went down, but for the season (56 games) he put up 10.2 and 3.1. Andrea's so called inflated stats were over 78 games and were 15.4 and 5.3.....not the best comparison. It is much easier for a hot run at the end of the season starting 25 games like Crawford did to impact your totals, but they did not. Why, because he was not that good like you stated, but even in your mind now he played better than you remember. This will be just like how Andrea will always play worse than you remember.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

c_dog said:


> was it because of smitch's inability to develop andrea or barg's soft mentality that prevented him from playing well? i agree that bargnani played better in part because he gained confidence, but i thought smith did the best he could while trying to make the team competitive. he gave andrea plenty of tough love, gave him encouragement and minutes when he was playing well, andrea just kept sulking on the bench. jay has definitely given bargnani a lot more freedom now, but that's made bargnani a jump shot happy chucker. is that really helping him along his development? bargnani's post defense improved under smith during his 2nd season, and that was the most significant improvement he's made since entering the league. he was given fair oppurtunity under smith to blossom, he just failed. i don't have any high hopes for bargnani anymore. him and bosh are the top 2 most disappointing players.


I think Mitchell inability to coach and develop players at least didn't help the situation. I agree that Bargnani has part of the blame but Mitchell is the one to blame for the failures of Joey Graham and Bargnani while Mitchell was around. The SF experiement during the Orlando series absolutely killed Bargnani's confidence in my opinion. Unless that was the order from Colangelo to make Bargnani play SF(I doubt it), that is imo the worst decision that Mitchell has made in his Raptors career. You don't make a young player, especially a 7 footer, try to learn a new position in arguably the biggest games of his career.

I don't think it is warranted to call Bargnani a chucker. His fg% went up after Mitchell was fired. If he is a chucker now, he was an even bigger chucker before. So either way Mitchell leaving didn't "make" him a chucker, if anything it made him less of one. Heck, he averaged 45% fg last year and over 40% from 3s. Name me another 45% fg player in the league that is considered to be a chucker. If you don't count the early season struggles while Mitchell was around, his fg% is actually a bit higher than 45.

The bottom line is the guy is a scorer, so obviously playing in a more offensive oriented system suits his game more. I don't think anyone is expecting a franchise player out of Bargnani at this point and thank god we didn't pay him as one (though we still overpaid in my opinion). But it is not out of the question at this stage of his career that he can become a player that can be a vital part of a winning team.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

WillFlight! said:


> AS for Chris Crawford from the Hawks, he had a decent 03/04 season, but his stats were not all that inflated. He did have a good run when Reef went down, but for the season (56 games) he put up 10.2 and 3.1. Andrea's so called inflated stats were over 78 games and were 15.4 and 5.3.....not the best comparison. It is much easier for a hot run at the end of the season starting 25 games like Crawford did to impact your totals, but they did not. Why, because he was not that good like you stated, but even in your mind now he played better than you remember. This will be just like how Andrea will always play worse than you remember.


nope, apparently he put up double his season average when he was made the starting pf. he had less rebounds than i remembered but 20/6 is still pretty impressive for a guy of his caliber.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3218/gamelog;_ylt=AgaXvH7nVNvyODhXAw.R5j6kvLYF?year=2003

the point is that players tend to put up stats when given the oppurtunity. bargs had better season average than crawford but he also started more games and played more minutes than crawford. you say it's easier to get on a hot streak than it is to play well for the entire season, but crawford was putting up those stats the day he got the starting spot, and did it for half a season.

and @ saying you'd give up on bargnani next season if he failed to improve.. i've already given up. same with joey graham. some guys you can be more patient with, other guys you just know are never going to pan out the way you want them to. bargnani is clearly at best, a poor man's mehemet okur. and they're getting the same pay.

@seifer: yes we did overpay. that's my main beef with bargs is that he's being treated like a better player than he actually is, by BC and fans. this guy should be no more than a good role player, and there's still a chance he regresses next year. his play is so inconsistent you just never know what you're going to get from him.


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