# Is Thabo Sefolosha better than Ronnie Brewer and Rodney Carney?



## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

I'm creating this thread with a clear title so that it can be bumped later one way or another.

I was very high on Brewer, and Paxson had him available as an option. Instead, he chose Sefolosha, which speaks volumes as to how much Paxson must like him. I don't know if we really considered Carney, and honestly Thabo sounds like a better fit for us than Rodney considering his ball handling skills, but Carney has the athleticism, outside shot, and defense to develop into a very valuable player.

I can't really claim anything but ignorance on Thabo. He sounds like a really intriguing prospect, and he seems like a guy who fits the need of a ball-hawking ball-handling big two guard who can get some minutes next to Ben Gordon with Kirk on the bench. 

One thing that makes me a little wary here is that we had the possibility of drafting two of the elite athletes in this draft in Thomas and Brewer/Carney. Thabo might be a great athlete too, but at least I am sure that Brewer and Carney are great athletes.

Let's hope that Paxson got the right 2 guard. I'm sad that Brewer was available and we didn't take him, but I will reserve judgement until I see Thabo in action.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Well, from what I've READ on Sefolosha, he sounds like a more skilled, polished, and more defensive guy than the rest. He also might have a bit of a size advantage too, but it's pretty close. Carney was one I was kinda hoping for due to pure athleticism and dunks and stuff...that's jsut a fan's perspective on excitement. Sef might fit the team better and thus be a better pick, even if it's not as popular with us. Brewer would've been a great pickup though I think, assuming his shot was good enough. Some people have him as a SF, others as a PG lol. If he is 6'7" and able to play PG, he'd be very nice to have, especially if we would go with a run n gun type team at times. Plus it'd create mismatches. 

I guess overall, Pax has earned enough of my trust that I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, BUT I will be watching Carney, Brewer, etc to see how they compare to Sef, and also Gay, Aldridge, Morrison, Roy to see how they compare to Thomas. (Roy cause I think it's realistic we could've pulled off a Portland type thing and gotten 2 of the top 6, especially with Gay at 8)


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> I'm creating this thread with a clear title so that it can be bumped later one way or another.
> 
> I was very high on Brewer, and Paxson had him available as an option. Instead, he chose Sefolosha, which speaks volumes as to how much Paxson must like him. I don't know if we really considered Carney, and honestly Thabo sounds like a better fit for us than Rodney considering his ball handling skills, but Carney has the athleticism, outside shot, and defense to develop into a very valuable player.
> 
> ...


I'm in the same boat. Thabo sounds fascinating, and the clips I've seen are nice, but I can't really contextualize his Italian league numbers and I haven't actually see him play in a game. Given that Pax is, if anything, a little overly cautious with draft prospects I think the fact that he was willing to trade up for Sefolosha (something of an unknown quantity) is encouraging. I like Brewer too. Hopefully Pax made the right call. I don't think many of us will be able to build much of an argument one way or another on this topic until the games start.


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## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

Thabo!!!!

:banana:


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## dkg1 (May 31, 2002)

I was blown away when they showed highlights of Sefolosha after the Sixers chose him. Very surprised by how athletic he looked. I was actually disappointed he wouldn't be around at our pick, then elated when I heard we swung a trade to get him. Sounds like he's got that pitbull mentality that we're going to enjoy.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

We have a very TOUGH minded core. It's a beautiful thing.

Hinrich/Duhon/Thabo/Gordon
Thomas/Chandler/Nocioni/Deng


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

The ROY said:


> We have a very TOUGH minded core. It's a beautiful thing.
> 
> Hinrich/Duhon/Thabo/Gordon
> Thomas/Chandler/Nocioni/Deng


Obviously, we need at least one more big to add to that group.

Nene? Pryzbilla? Gooden? I probably look in that order if Nene is healthy.

Paxson didn't draft that players I was hoping for in the draft, but I'm pleased that he addressed a need, by drafting Thabo, that free agency did not seem to be able to fill.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> I'm creating this thread with a clear title so that it can be bumped later one way or another.
> 
> I was very high on Brewer, and Paxson had him available as an option. Instead, he chose Sefolosha, which speaks volumes as to how much Paxson must like him. I don't know if we really considered Carney, and honestly Thabo sounds like a better fit for us than Rodney considering his ball handling skills, but Carney has the athleticism, outside shot, and defense to develop into a very valuable player.
> 
> ...



I think some here may have overestimated Brewer based on workout numbers. He did, afterall, only go at 14 instead of the 9-10 range many of us thought.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

I had Marcus Williams, Brewer, Carney, and Simmons all ranked higher on my draft board but at the end of the day Pax gets a lot more exposure to these guys than I do and I trust his opinion. The interesting thing about Sefolosha is he has IMPROVED dramatically on his shooting, so much so that he was shooting 43% from 3pt land last season in the Italian league. Thats huge because this guy was always an uber atheletic total package type player who couldn't shoot well...if he can shoot well he could be a star.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

I honestly have no idea if Thabo is better than Brewer or Carney. I only know what I've heard.

But I do know that Brewer and Carney have distinct drawbacks:

Brewer - Phenomenal athlete (off the charts in the combine), defense, ballhandler, passer, slasher, and team player. Weakness? Shooting the ball.

Carney - Also a phenomenal athlete, very good shooter/scorer, plays some defense. Weakness? Motivation, Tweener (body of a SG, plays like a SF).

Sefolosha - Terrific all-around skill set, proven against tough competition, "among the top 2 defenders in this draft" per the ESPN crew, good shooter, solid guard skills/ballhandling, etc. Weakness? Maybe a slight step down athletically from the former two, but we'll see about that.

Personally, I think Thabo will easily be better than Carney and will be at least as good as Brewer. Might even be more NBA ready.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

I like picking Thabo mainly because he's a guy with age and experience. While there might be a valid chance that we send him overseas to "stash" for a year, it appears like he's really ready right now.

Thabo vs. Carney and Brewer reminded me very much of Yaroslav Korolev going to the Clips when Antoine Wright and Joey Graham were on the board. Graham and Wright were the college wing studs of that draft, but neither of them made big impacts in their first years. However, Korolev barely played at all for the Clips and he's really young.

I'm excited at the thought of Thabo and his athletic defense and ball handling and all that. I do wonder if we passed on talents that might be really incredible, but somehow I am feeling better and better about this pick.


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## Swan (Jun 27, 2005)

going by the numbers, Thabo seems like a more backcourt oriented Josh Howard (while not as strong or the shooter that howard now is). If I remember right, he didn't test out at the camp, but Ford said at some point he's a true 6'7" in shoes and has a 7'2'' wingspan.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

TripleDouble said:


> I think some here may have overestimated Brewer based on workout numbers. He did, afterall, only go at 14 instead of the 9-10 range many of us thought.


Maybe... i figured Brewer was pretty equivalent to Andre Iguodala, and he went 9th in a stronger draft. Brewer's got the funky shot, which I think might have hurt him, but if anything he had better intangibles coming in.

As far as Thabo, more than anything it's just frustrating that there's very little we can know or measure about him, so it's hard to say he's better or worse. We've got reports of good workouts and good athleticism, but we've got that for Brewer too. The difference is we've got numbers, lots of footage, and more news to back it up. All that stuff gives us (me at least) the sense that the reports on Brewer was on target. That stuff isn't there for us to look at with Thabo.

But the Bulls probably tested his athletic scores, they talked to him in detail, and they've worked him out. So while we have an information imbalance, they don't. I'm pretty comfortable with the pick.... if Brewer hadn't been on the board I would absolutely love it.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Brewer was PISSED lol

Honestly, I'd rather have Brewer but like I said, Thabo must be special if he went through all that to get him.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Swan said:


> going by the numbers, Thabo seems like a more backcourt oriented Josh Howard (while not as strong or the shooter that howard now is). If I remember right, he didn't test out at the camp, but Ford said at some point he's a true 6'7" in shoes and has a 7'2'' wingspan.


I'd missed his wingspan, that's pretty huge for a 6'7" guy. That puts him right there with Tyrus and Rudy Gay as far as real freaks go.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

dkg1 said:


> I was blown away when they showed highlights of Sefolosha after the Sixers chose him. Very surprised by how athletic he looked. I was actually disappointed he wouldn't be around at our pick, then elated when I heard we swung a trade to get him. Sounds like he's got that pitbull mentality that we're going to enjoy.


Ditto. I will add that I yelled "YES" at the pick b/c I though we would get Carney/Brewer. Then I saw the clips. Wow.



> “He’s a natural talent because he understands the game,” said Angelico general manager Marco Atripaldi. “He passes well and has unbelievable athletic skill. Shooting might be his worst skill, but I saw him improve day by day. He wants to play in the NBA and is working hard to get it done.
> 
> “He’s a great defender. He defended all the best scorers in Italy — against point guards, shooting guards and small forwards. He sometimes played the point for us.”


http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/bulls.asp?id=203645

The guy sounds like an unbelievable good fit. Lots of good stuff on DX about him too.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

MikeDC said:


> I'd missed his wingspan, that's pretty huge for a 6'7" guy. That puts him right there with Tyrus and Rudy Gay as far as real freaks go.


I posted this elsewhere, but bulls.com lists Thabo at 6' 5", nbadraft.net has him at 6' 6", and draftexpress.com has him at 6' 7". See, you don't attend the predraft camp, and LOOK WHAT HAPPENS!


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Paxson sees more of these Euro players than I do, so, as always, Paxson get the benefit of the doubt from me until I actually see the guy play.

I'm initially upset about passing on Brewer... but only because I know nothing of the Swiss Miss.

Paxson is swinging for the fences.


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

MikeDC said:


> I'd missed his wingspan, that's pretty huge for a 6'7" guy. That puts him right there with Tyrus and Rudy Gay as far as real freaks go.


i also read paxson or either skiles harping about how big his hands were. make up for tysons lack of hands.. 

but im definitly glad we got a guard who can slash to the basket.. im also glad that paxson doesn't mind drafting a player with rows.


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> I posted this elsewhere, but bulls.com lists Thabo at 6' 5", nbadraft.net has him at 6' 6", and draftexpress.com has him at 6' 7". See, you don't attend the predraft camp, and LOOK WHAT HAPPENS!


Bulls.com was sandbagging. LOL.


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## Swan (Jun 27, 2005)

yeah, knew I had read it somewhere. According to DX, (scroll down a bit)

http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1355

6'7'' 207 7'2'' and a 8 11 1/2 standing reach.

that's nasty :banana:


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

Swan said:


> yeah, knew I had read it somewhere. According to DX, (scroll down a bit)
> 
> http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1355
> 
> ...


nice! thanks for that. 

what can i say. awesome. well done paxson..


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

http://195.56.77.208/player/?id=SEF-THA-84&year=2005&team=1116

Here are some stats on Thabo. All of the stats look good to me, except for the 66% from the FT line. Ick. 

6.9 rebounds in 30 minutes per game is quite impressive, though.

In contrast, Ronnie Brewer shot 75% from the line last year. His FT percentage goes up each year. This indicates to me that despite his injury, the kid might end up being an efficient shooter from the field as well. He's getting better at what he does.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

I believe the Bulls had been looking specifically at Sefolosha this entire season. I'm sure they made multiple trips to Italy looking at both Bargnani and Sefolosha. They knew about him long before they made this pick and his workouts in the states only helped to solidify what they already knew. I'd be willing to wager that he was always on their board at #16 and after his workout in Chicago; that was all they needed.

For Pax to go after him in the manner that he did (trading up to #13) tells me all I need to know. I think it was a win/win because either Brewer or Sefolosha would have been great fits. He'll have to adjust to the way the game is officiated here, but he can effectively guard the 1-3 spots, is a decent shooter and is not afraid to get to the rim. He's a guy you can trust to bring the ball up the floor and to make the right decisions.

I, personally, think it was a very good pick.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Paxson said the other day that Brandon Roy had quite a good workout, but he was working out against Thabo. I wonder how good Thabo himself played in that workout.


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## ChiSox (Jun 9, 2004)

Swan said:


> yeah, knew I had read it somewhere. According to DX, (scroll down a bit)
> 
> http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1355
> 
> ...


Those sound like Scottie Pippen's height and wingspan! Heck, his discription sound like Pippen. I just hope he can be half the ball player Pippen was.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

I'm just afraid he won't be able to get off the bench for rookie sensation Eddie Basden.


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## 7RINGS? (Sep 28, 2004)

sloth said:


> I'm just afraid he won't be able to get off the bench for rookie sensation Eddie Basden.


Iteresting point! Wasn't Hasben suppose to be a great deffender too?I hope Thabo isn't the next Eddie Hasben! :laugh:


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## Wishbone (Jun 10, 2002)

sloth said:


> I'm just afraid he won't be able to get off the bench for rookie sensation Eddie Basden.



:clap: 

that is truely the quote that will not die. 
but Eddie's no longer a rookie sensation. he's a sophomore sensation!!
I predict he's gonna lead the league in scoring, rebounding, assists and minutes played.
he'll also be top 5 in assist/turnovers, steals and blocks

we'll all be thinking to ourselves, "Thabo who?"


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## kulaz3000 (May 3, 2006)

7RINGS? said:


> Iteresting point! Wasn't Hasben suppose to be a great deffender too?I hope Thabo isn't the next Eddie Hasben! :laugh:


But Eddie Basden wasn't drafted 13th. He wasn't even drafted at all. He was more of a "hopeful defensive stopper" more than anything...

No comparison.


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## Qwerty123 (May 31, 2002)

The Sefolosha pick ran the gamut of emotions for me, too. From excitement that Brewer might drop to having my interest piqued watching his clips to disappointment that Pax took him instead of Brewer. I'm still upset that he was the pick over Brewer, but like everyone else, it's probably most due to lack of knowledge. I do think he'll be a better fit for us than Carney would have been due to better ball handling abilities.

Skiles has described Sef as a Doug Christie type player, which, while a valuable cog in his prime, is not quite the type of player I was hoping for.

There were several qualities I was looking for in our third guard: 
1. ball handling
2. height
3. strength
4. athleticism
5. defense
6. slashing
7. ability to finish strong/draw fouls
8. decent enough shooter

Brewer had all of those IMO. The biggest question mark for me with Sefolosha is #7, which is a big reason why I liked Brewer. That's a huge element missing from our Hinrich-Gordon backcourt, and quite frankly our whole team. I also give Brewer the edge in terms of strength, which would have come in handy in defending LeBron and Wade even though Sef seems to be regarded as a better defender, but Brewer is in the discussion too. Brewer seems to be the better leaper from what I saw.

Bottom line is I think we needed offense and defense in one package from our third guard, and I'm not hearing enough about Sefolosha's offense to make me believe he'll be anything more than another great defender but a liability on offense. Not enough diversity for me.

But, of course, I reserve judgement until I actually see him play.


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## JRose5 (May 4, 2003)




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## 7RINGS? (Sep 28, 2004)

kulaz3000 said:


> But Eddie Basden wasn't drafted 13th. He wasn't even drafted at all. He was more of a "hopeful defensive stopper" more than anything...
> 
> No comparison.


Good point you can rest your case.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

I was just listening to local sports radio in Phoenix. One of the assistant coaches from the Suns was on the radio explaining why Phoenix traded their first rounders. He said they wanted to trade up but had no takers. He specifically talked about how the Suns were interested in Thabo and Hilton Armstrong, and he mentioned Brewer as kind of an also-ran.

It seems Paxson was not the only GM who coveted Thabo over Brewer.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Paxson sees more of these Euro players than I do, so, as always, Paxson get the benefit of the doubt from me until I actually see the guy play.
> 
> I'm initially upset about passing on Brewer... but only because I know nothing of the Swiss Miss.
> 
> Paxson is swinging for the fences.


 I've always thought Paxson was a little more versaitle and not out to only chose great college players, but I agree that he stepped out a little further this year. I think it's important that we remember that Thomas was drafted at four while the Bulls would have taken him at one. . . meaning John Paxson saw things in him that other GMs didn't. I'm sure some people will point out that the draft experts rated him number one, but if you asked twenty-five teams who they would take with first, how many would have said Thomas? We'll see if Paxson was right.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

such sweet thunder said:


> I've always thought Paxson was a little more versaitle and not out to only chose great college players, but I agree that he stepped out a little further this year. I think it's important that we remember that Thomas was drafted at four while the Bulls would have taken him at one. . . meaning John Paxson saw things in him that other GMs didn't. I'm sure some people will point out that the draft experts rated him number one, but if you asked twenty-five teams who they would take with first, how many would have said Thomas? We'll see if Paxson was right.


Team need also plays a role.

Paxson clearly set out to acquire "length and athleticism"... and that's what he drafted.

Toronto, Charlotte and Portland all had different needs.

I've posted this once or twice, but I always hoped that Paxson was just building a solid core that could eventually absorb risk. Well, I think he has and it looks like he's willing to use it in a way that I agree with.


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

Can someone tell me how many steals and blocks he got from his stats??? I think it's the 2.7 and 2.1 figures in the second last group but... my italian is very bad


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

This is all you need to know

out of Roy, Brewer, Carney...he picked THABO...he passed up some of the best guards in the draft for this kid...

I have no doubt he'll be good


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

The ROY said:


> This is all you need to know
> 
> out of Roy, Brewer, Carney...he picked THABO...he passed up some of the best guards in the draft for this kid...
> 
> I have no doubt he'll be good


Let's just say that if Thabo turns out to be the worst of the four that he will properly catch some heat.

Paxson said he was worried about Thabo going at #10. That says something all by itself.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Sefolosha is supposedly the best defender in Europe. I suppose everyone else is tied for 2nd best/worst.


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

I'm quite happy with the pick. We getting guys that are good rebounders for their size (Deng, Noc, Thomas, Thabo) and guys that play D. Add Hinrich and Duhon to this and you have more defensive guys on the court. Ben's D has improve to be at least average as well.

I think Paxson really likes the Rodman, Pippen, Jordan Harper model, of long, interchangable pieces on D.

Lots of these guys guard multiple positions, so switching on D becomes alot easier. They rebound well for their size and they're quick up and down the court.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Bump.

I'm extremely happy with the two games I saw out of Thabo. He looked ready to play and very, very talented: exactly what we needed. 

That being said, Ronnie Brewer looks like a serious player in summer league. His stat lines and his reports have been every bit as good, or better, than Thabo's were. Here's one report from today's game:

http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1420

I'm so much more comfortable with the Thabo pick now that I've seen him play, but it's still no sure bet he's going to be a better pro than Brewer. Honestly, the prospects for both look very good.


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

ace20004u said:


> I had Marcus Williams, Brewer, Carney, and Simmons all ranked higher on my draft board but at the end of the day Pax gets a lot more exposure to these guys than I do and I trust his opinion. The interesting thing about Sefolosha is he has IMPROVED dramatically on his shooting, so much so that he was shooting 43% from 3pt land last season in the Italian league. Thats huge because this guy was always an uber atheletic total package type player who couldn't shoot well...if he can shoot well he could be a star.


Just my opinion, but I think that fact that he just keeps improving really floats paxsons boat. And that his more seasoned that alot of rookies, being 22 and having played pro ball before.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Brewer is going to be solid.... Thabo looks good as well.

If we have Brewer right now, I'm not shedding any tears. He's the big, athletic, attacking guard we supposedly needed.


Thabo's ball handling skills can't be denied though. Perhaps he makes Duhon expendable via trade for Drew Gooden and we can make a run at the title this year.


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## paxman (Apr 24, 2006)

love thabo's passing, love brewer's penetrating.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Brewer is going to be solid.... Thabo looks good as well.
> 
> If we have Brewer right now, I'm not shedding any tears. He's the big, athletic, attacking guard we supposedly needed.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I think Thabo looks like he might have the best handle of anyone on the Bulls. Sure he got his pocket picked too often in the summer league, but he probably hasn't played against this level of athlete very often. He looks so amazing fluid with the ball, and he looks so highly coordinated and natural moving with the ball. I have high hopes for him as a point guard. I am extremely excited about seeing Gordon and Thabo get some serious minutes together this year.


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## paxman (Apr 24, 2006)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> Honestly, I think Thabo looks like he might have the best handle of anyone on the Bulls. Sure he got his pocket picked too often in the summer league, but he probably hasn't played against this level of athlete very often. He looks so amazing fluid with the ball, and he looks so highly coordinated and natural moving with the ball. I have high hopes for him as a point guard. I am extremely excited about seeing Gordon and Thabo get some serious minutes together this year.


i suspect you will see more kirk+thabo than thabo+gordon
i think that thabo is brought in to push kirk into more pg minutes,
and relieve him of having to guard the oppsosing teams' shooting guards
all the time. 
all this of course IF thabo plays well.


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

It would be fun to see Thabo Sefolosha vs. Shaun Livingston.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

I dont know if he's better than Brewer but theres no way hes better than carney


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Marcus13 said:


> I dont know if he's better than Brewer but theres no way hes better than carney



based on?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

paxman said:


> love thabo's passing, love brewer's penetrating.


:cowboy:


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

quick question (not meant to take this thread OT _please_) but have thabolicious and the tyrusnator been officially signed yet?

are we waiting for the other stuff (griffin/JR to the nuggets) to be made official?


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

yodurk said:


> I honestly have no idea if Thabo is better than Brewer or Carney. I only know what I've heard.
> 
> But I do know that Brewer and Carney have distinct drawbacks:
> 
> ...


I think all 3 will have good NBA careers and all three would fit the team, albeit in different ways. I think the NBA readiness that Thabo showed in summer league is what made him the choice.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> quick question (not meant to take this thread OT _please_) but have thabolicious and the tyrusnator been officially signed yet?


No and no.



> are we waiting for the other stuff (griffin/JR to the nuggets) to be made official?


Seems that way. However, I recall addressing this on a thread a week or so ago, and going through Larry ****'s site and the rules for cap holds on draft picks and such, I'm not sure if there is a legitimate reason why...


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I think Thabo is a great fit, because with Hinrich and Gordon being our best players, we needed that versatile shooting guard. Thabo is lengthy, good athlete and can handle the ball well. He can allow Gordon to play off the ball on offense and still guard point guards on defense. That's what Hinrich does for Gordon right now. Thabo also allows Hinrich to tap into his shooting guard skills more often, since he doesn't have to be handling the ball and distributing so much. 

Thabo looks like a great prospect, like he could give Hinrich or Gordon a run for their money for a starting spot in the backcourt.


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

just to play devil's advocate, the fear is that Thabo was selected over the college guys because he's a fit that wont rock the boat in the guard rotation. you could see infighting between say Brewer and Gordon over minutes, more than you'd see it involving Thabo... just saying this due to Thabo's personality type in interviews, and because he's coming in as an unknown.


also, people here might wanna be ready for Thabo to sit a LOT. yes, he fits a need for guarding bigger guards... but that didnt stop them from completely benching Basden when he wasnt getting with the program. now Duhon's rookie yr was the opposite of that, but he was able to get going amidst far more desperate surroundings.


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## LuCane (Dec 9, 2002)

> also, people here might wanna be ready for Thabo to sit a LOT. yes, he fits a need for guarding bigger guards... but that didnt stop them from completely benching Basden when he wasnt getting with the program.


There seems to be a discernable gap between what Thabo offers and what Basden brings to the table. Just ask Adam Morrison.


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## DengNabbit (Feb 23, 2005)

LuCane said:


> There seems to be a discernable gap between what Thabo offers and what Basden brings to the table. Just ask Adam Morrison.


agreed, but i'm not arguing about that. i'm saying they may be treated similarly. Thabo hasnt offered anything on the NBA level yet, and your post's wording seems to backup what a lot of people here feel, which is that he'll be an immediate contributor.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

paxman said:


> love thabo's passing, love brewer's penetrating.


I heard Thabo is very much the penetrator. Can play above the rim too


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I think Thabo is a great fit, because with Hinrich and Gordon being our best players, we needed that versatile shooting guard. Thabo is lengthy, good athlete and can handle the ball well. He can allow Gordon to play off the ball on offense and still guard point guards on defense. That's what Hinrich does for Gordon right now. Thabo also allows Hinrich to tap into his shooting guard skills more often, since he doesn't have to be handling the ball and distributing so much.
> 
> Thabo looks like a great prospect, like he could give Hinrich or Gordon a run for their money for a starting spot in the backcourt.


Repped! Excellent post I agree completely. I would even go so far as to say that the role you so eloquently described is exactly what Paxson had in mind when he scouted and drafted Thabo. I think he is going to be quite good for us and will fit like a glove on this team Pax is building. Excellent choice and nice job of moving up for next to nothing to snag him.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

yeah what ace and Sir P are saying

don't be surprised to see Kirk have his best offensive season getting more rest on the other end (at both ends really). I don't know what to think about his shooting %, but Kirk is probably going to have more legs in his shots at the end of games and 3rd quarters


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## nanokooshball (Jan 22, 2005)

DengNabbit said:


> just to play devil's advocate, the fear is that Thabo was selected over the college guys because he's a fit that wont rock the boat in the guard rotation. you could see infighting between say Brewer and Gordon over minutes, more than you'd see it involving Thabo... just saying this due to Thabo's personality type in interviews, and because he's coming in as an unknown.


I think this a very perceptive view


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

For many of the reasons stated, the more we learn about Sefolosha, it's like Paxson had him custom-made for what the Bulls needed. Long, athletic, defense-minded, teamable with Hinrich, Gordon or Duhon, perfect for a 3-guard lineup, and importantly, he has a couple years of professional experience and it shows on and off the court. He should be able to contribute immediately, and immediately is when the Bulls need this type of player.

I have no idea whether Sefolosha will end up being better than the other two, but when you have the 16th pick and you end up with a piece that apparently fits as well as Thabo does, you probably feel pretty good about it.


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

DengNabbit said:


> just to play devil's advocate, the *fear* is that Thabo was selected over the college guys because he's a fit that wont rock the boat in the guard rotation. you could see infighting between say Brewer and Gordon over minutes, more than you'd see it involving Thabo... just saying this due to Thabo's personality type in interviews, and because he's coming in as an unknown.


I don't know if we should use the fear word here, This is a legitimate concern when you build a team, and an appropriate concern. Show me a GM who builds a team without worrying about that and I'll show you a bad GM.
PLus, there aren't any convincing voices and POVs that say Brewer or Carney are more talented anyways.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

transplant said:


> For many of the reasons stated, the more we learn about Sefolosha, it's like Paxson had him custom-made for what the Bulls needed. Long, athletic, defense-minded, teamable with Hinrich, Gordon or Duhon, perfect for a 3-guard lineup, and importantly, he has a couple years of professional experience and it shows on and off the court. He should be able to contribute immediately, and immediately is when the Bulls need this type of player.
> 
> I have no idea whether Sefolosha will end up being better than the other two, but when you have the 16th pick and you end up with a piece that apparently fits as well as Thabo does, you probably feel pretty good about it.


I was really high on Brewer before the draft, but from what I've seen of Sefolosha he may be a slightly better fit. I had no idea he'd be this advanced as far as handling the basketball, that's an area that I thought Brewer had him pretty soundly beat in. The one thing we don't know is whether or not Sefolosha is going to make good decisions with the ball during games and initiate the offense effectively. He looked handy with the rock over the course of two summer league games, but he wasn't really playing within the confines of an offense. We'll see...


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Darius Miles Davis said:


> I'm creating this thread with a clear title so that it can be bumped later one way or another.
> 
> I was very high on Brewer, and Paxson had him available as an option. Instead, he chose Sefolosha, which speaks volumes as to how much Paxson must like him. I don't know if we really considered Carney, and honestly Thabo sounds like a better fit for us than Rodney considering his ball handling skills, but Carney has the athleticism, outside shot, and defense to develop into a very valuable player.
> 
> ...


In regard to the thread title...what does _better_ mean? A better fit? A better role player? A better NBA talent? Of course the three are mutually exclusive...


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

transplant said:


> For many of the reasons stated, the more we learn about Sefolosha, *it's like Paxson had him custom-made for what the Bulls needed.* Long, athletic, defense-minded, teamable with Hinrich, Gordon or Duhon, perfect for a 3-guard lineup, and importantly, he has a couple years of professional experience and it shows on and off the court. He should be able to contribute immediately, and immediately is when the Bulls need this type of player.
> 
> I have no idea whether Sefolosha will end up being better than the other two, but when you have the 16th pick and you end up with a piece that apparently fits as well as Thabo does, you probably feel pretty good about it.





*so true.* 

and yet, just like nocioni, i expect thabo to have a bit of a transition period to the NBA to where he can contribute in a really meaningful way. so i personally have tempered my own "contribute immediately" expectations even in light of his outstanding run in 2 summer league games.



he will still have to adjust to the rigors of an 82 game schedule/rookie wall/no calls from the refs/blah blah blah. he just will.



_i think this kid has something special_ and is a genius pick by pax - and we'll see it really start to emerge around the ASB. i'm not going to panic if he starts out a little rough. and i think skiles is smart enough to know not to panic either.


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## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> In regard to the thread title...what does better mean? A better fit? A better role player? A better NBA talent? Of course the three are mutually exclusive...


a very astute observation.....thabo may very well get the least opportunity than that of brewer/carney (btw, i was a carney guy). however, for what the bull will ask of thabo he may have the smallest stat sample from the other guys. this won't necessarily make them "better", it will simply mean those guys' teams needed what they brought to the table more than what the bull needed from thabo.

of course, should thabo's rookie campaign be less than stellar statistically, there'll be the contingent that will express disapointment in pax's choice, which is their right. nevertheless, i think all 3 teams are happy with *their * guy; i'm anxious to see thabo and tyrus in real nba action.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> he will still have to adjust to...no calls from the refs...



Didn't Stern say that that was a myth?


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

big guards are so tough to get. Maybe the hardest. Try to get one at all, even in the mid 1st or higher

seemingly, he has a complete package in theory if he can straighten out that jumper. Remains to be seen. Miz, If he can, yes he will be a genius pick instead of just a nice pick.

You can look for guards at the top of the draft, and it is not even easy there recently.

Especially mid 1st round.
Since Y2K, when we look at some mid round or lower lottery range big guards taken like 

Pietrus, 
Jarvis Hayes, 
Fred Jones, 
Reece Gains, 
Kirk Snyder, 
Jiri Welsch, 
Courtney Alexander, 
Q-Rich ..... we can see how dicey it can be with guys in this area of the draft. 
(We won't trash Antoine Wright yet either but he's teetering). Lower down I'm sure it gets worse

then we have higher choices like 

Jamal Crawford, 
Dermarr Johnson, 
Luke Jackson
Josh Childress (who is more of a SF and still has some upside)

......Meh or washouts!

what we are left with really is a lot of bust outs or meh players other than Joe Johnson. Some other guys have panned out a little lower. Its tough finding big guards out of the lower lotto to mid range let alone higher. Really hard.

real success? we have to draft high. Mostly all we have is about 6 or 8 or so

*Wade, 
Gordon
Jason Richardson. 
Iggy 
Lebron* of course. 
Add in *Joe Johnson* from lower range, and since Y2K thats about it, these guards just have not been drafted if not high. 

Then you have the freak sleepers of *Ginobilli and Arenas*

If Thabo, Brewer and Carney all pan out very well in the same draft it would be incredible. If you consider how hard it is to find these big guard guys, *maybe we should relax and lower expections*. If Thabo is that rare like a leap year 6-6 guard who can play point, safe to say this _would_ be genius.
And If there were 2 in the same draft (Brandon Roy), this draft has a chance to shine rather than be a weak draft


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## paxman (Apr 24, 2006)

I think you need to see thabo play at least one nba game 
before calling him a genius pick


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> *so true.*
> 
> and yet, just like nocioni, i expect thabo to have a bit of a transition period to the NBA to where he can contribute in a really meaningful way. so i personally have tempered my own "contribute immediately" expectations even in light of his outstanding run in 2 summer league games.
> 
> ...


Miz, I suspect that we're in violent agreement. Just to be clear, I don't expect Sefolosha to walk in and be a stud NBA player, but I do believe that he will immediately be given meaningful time to pair with Hinrich (giving Kirk a chance to play PG on both ends) and Gordon (Sefolosha PG on "O" and SG on "D"). In fact, your Nocioni analogy is spot-on. Noce got time early to provide "energy." Sefolosha will get some meaningful time to provide defense on big SGs. It may only be 10-15mpg, and initially Griffin will get more of these minutes (particularly teamed with Hinrich), but he'll see some meaningful time. For the Bulls' chances in 2006-07, I'd argue that Sefolosha's development might be more important than Thomas's.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

I hate to say this, and I'm not doing it to be controversial, but he reminds me of Crawford.

I know everyone claims that he’s an excellent defender, but from what I’ve seen (granted, just fuzzy streams from magic.com and a couple youtube videos), he goes for steals primarily, which was Jamal’s best attempt at D.

Crawford is likely a better shooter (or relies on the outside shot more)… Thabo is seemingly a better aggressive attacker of the basket... although not to the level of a Brewer.

He seems like a slightly more physical player... but that tall guard that can handle the ball and has a little spice to his game... reminds me of Crawford.

I saw some site compare him to Iggy. I don't see that at all.

Another said Reece Gains. I hope not.

Another says Jason Richardson? I have not seen enough of him play. I don't think JRICH would be described as a 1/2.

Best case, if he bulks up is who? Who do you think?


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

> I hate to say this, and I'm not doing it to be controversial, but he reminds me of Crawford.
> 
> I know everyone claims that he’s an excellent defender, but from what I’ve seen (granted, just fuzzy streams from magic.com and a couple youtube videos), he goes for steals primarily, which was Jamal’s best attempt at D.
> 
> ...



here we go. The angle emerges :whatever:


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

fleetwood macbull said:


> here we go. The angle emerges :whatever:


No angle. Jeez.

Who do you think he reminds you of, best case?

Penny?


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

Doug Christie?


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> No angle. Jeez.


 



> Who do you think he reminds you of, best case?
> 
> Penny?


best case, would not be Penny. Penny was too good to hang that on him. Not fair or wise to go there

I actually haven't seen him play. From descriptions on message boards and profiles, If I went for a comparison with my built in skepticism about finding 2 guards, I might say slightly more talented pre disapointment Marco Jaric out of the box and see where he can exceed that going forward. But that type.

But I'm hoping hes at least as good as Larry Hughes best dream case. You have to remember, I'm skeptical of finding the mythical huge playmaking 2 guard who can defend. They aren't out there. He's likely going to fall short.

thats the best I can do without seeing him. If I see something crazy in a game against an NBA roster, I'll get back to you later and get all homerish


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## Geaux Tigers (Apr 26, 2004)

Brewer wont play like half the athlete that his combine numbers says he is.

Ive seen him quite a bit and his athleticism is not necessarily "game athleticism"


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## ChiSox (Jun 9, 2004)

I have seen Brewer and Carney play but I don't believe they are as talented as Sefolosha. Sefolosha can shoot, drive with either hand and has good handle. I saw the two summer league games and he looked like he will be very good. I believe he will play 25 minutes a game this year. He might end up being better than Tyrus.

I bet Sefolosha out played Roy and Gay during their pre-draft workouts. Sefolosha in a interview with Draftexpress said he felt his game was comparable to Roy and Gay. http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=1364

I believe Sefolosha is going to be a stud!!!


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## fleetwood macbull (Jan 23, 2004)

if you really really wanted to have a wild wet dream that physically could occur in some drug induced pollyanna(ish) rant, you should just go with Joe Johnson. He wasn't supposed to have the kind of deep jumper that he actually developed. His playmaking ability was not expected either, but he had pretty good handles. Ok now that i think about this, thats exactly my Homer on X fantasy

Edit: I take this back. I just checked JJs NBAdraft.net profile. Apparently he did have the playmaking ability rep. I thought he was just a good ball handler coming out:



> NBA Comparison: Penny Hardaway
> 
> Strengths: Only a given few have the ball skills that Johnson possesses at 6-9. Penny Hardaway (6-7), Lamar Odom, and Magic Johnson come to mind. Has very good vision and passing skills. Great intangibles. Has that certain feel for the game that the great ones have, knows where to be, what to do. Great shot, handle, passing, vision, confidence.
> 
> Weaknesses: Must get stronger, learn the game. Entering just his sophomore season, Johnson still has alot of basketball to learn. Must stay aggressive.


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

fleetwood macbull said:


> if you really really wanted to have a wild wet dream that physically could occur in some drug induced pollyanna(ish) rant, you should just go with Joe Johnson. He wasn't supposed to have the kind of deep jumper that he actually developed. His playmaking ability was not expected either, but he had pretty good handles. Ok now that i think about this, thats exactly my Homer on X fantasy
> 
> Edit: I take this back. I just checked JJs NBAdraft.net profile. Apparently he did have the playmaking ability rep. I thought he was just a good ball handler coming out:



Joe Johnson was listed at 6'9'' coming out school? Wow. I think the 6'7'' he's currently tagged is a little generous. Interesting.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

fleetwood macbull said:


> here we go. The angle emerges :whatever:


With you on that one.

Geez.


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

Jsimo12 said:


> Brewer wont play like half the athlete that his combine numbers says he is.
> 
> Ive seen him quite a bit and his athleticism is not necessarily "game athleticism"


The top three in vertical jump and reach, from memory, where TT, Gay and Brewer, but only the first two are consider outrageously atheletic from their on court play.

I don't know Brewers background, but his stats didn't seem to improve much year to year.


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## paxman (Apr 24, 2006)

..


kukoc4ever said:


> Jeez





GB said:


> Geez


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## transplant (Jul 31, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> I hate to say this, and I'm not doing it to be controversial, but he reminds me of Crawford.
> 
> I know everyone claims that he’s an excellent defender, but from what I’ve seen (granted, just fuzzy streams from magic.com and a couple youtube videos), he goes for steals primarily, which was Jamal’s best attempt at D.
> 
> ...


K4E, you're going to get beaten up for this, and to some degree you deserve it. However, since we haven't seen Sefolosha play in real, live NBA games, your skepticism is understandable. I may be wrong, but I see it as akin to "let's not put the kid in the Hall of Fame just yet." That's wise and reasonable.

Sefolosha ain't nothing until he does something in the League. Neither is anyone else, Brewer and Carney included. 

Crawford was a MUCH better shooter than Sefolosha coming into the league. From what I've seen of Sefolosha, he's definitely a pass-first player on offense. On defense, both Crawford and Sefolosha show the ability to make steals, but Sefolosha is much more of a lock-down defender than Crawford, someone who takes pride in shutting his man down. As I'm sure you'd agree, this was never part of Crawford's skillset or mindset.

Crawford was a scorer from day one. Sefolosha isn't, and may never be. If you want/need 18 ppg from your SG, you want Crawford. If you want an off-the bench player who can allow Ben Gordon to do his thing without sacrificing team defense, a player like Sefolosha seems like the better bet.

Depends on what you need.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

I agree with Transplant, in that I don't see a whole lot of real physical comparisons in strength and style between Thabo and JCraw other than their both being tall guards.

Where I do see a real comparison (admitedly an imperfect comparison, since we are comparing Summer League and NBA) is that I think Jamal and Thabo are comparable in poise, decision making, maturity and other intangibles such as that. Jamal has made tremendous strides in these intangible factors in the last year or so, and I think the comparison reflects quite favorably on Swiss Chocolate. I think the fact that Thabo coming into the league compares to a respectable, journeyman guard is quite a compliment.

In fact, I think the nickname won't stick on Thabo. I think he has already shown he is above such playground names.

Other than that, I do agree with a lot of K4E's analysis of strengths and weaknesses.

Crawford is the superior shooter, without need for further observation. Thabo can improve, but Jamal is probably always the better pure shooter.

Depending on how he adjusts to the league, Thabo may be a better overall player.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

Some tidbits on Brewer and Carney from the same article about the RMR. It would have been nice if we were still playing in that.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2525734



> Brewer, selected No. 14 overall in last month's NBA draft, was hitting a Revue-best 62.2 percent from the field (28 of 45) through his first four summer games. The University of Arkansas product also was averaging 17.8 points before Thursday, third-highest -- behind Atlanta's Marvin Williams and Philadelphia's Louis Williams -- among those playing at least four Revue games.
> 
> "He's showing signs that he has the ability to play in this league,'' Jazz assistant Tyrone Corbin said after coaching Utah's summer team to a 77-56 win over Atlanta Thursday. *"He's certainly not where he needs to be as far as developing or understanding the game, but he's shown some signs he can be a good player.'' *
> 
> ...


I know, I know, it's just summer league games, but it does seem like the chances of all three of these big mid-1st round guards would be performing well (Thabo, Brewer, Carney) are slim. Hopefully they WILL emerge as a successful triumvirate of guard/forward types that can succeed and help their teams in the NBA.


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