# NiCe



## Curious George (Aug 8, 2003)

You guys have really gotten it together. Nice job, you pulled past my C's, boy are we struggling, but you have your PG now and look to be on a semi-roll, best of luck.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

thats a nice gesture coming from a celtics fan..thanks.....Isiah has come in and begun to clean house...layden was a disaster and didnt have what it takes to run the Knicks....

You guys need a solid GM..I dont know about Ainge...Getting rid of walker for lafrentz was questionable,and getting ricky davis when you have pierce???why trade walker??

worst of all,how in the world could you let Joe Johnson go..that guy is gonna be awesome


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## 82 (Jul 11, 2002)

the celtics are horribly run. Look at the three first round picks...

1) joe Johnson- fine, nothing wrong with that
2) Kedrick Brown- Pretty bad, could have had Troy Murphy would have helped out a lot more
3) Joe Forte- Obviously hindsight is 20/20 but Tony Parker or even Tinsley would have obviously played out better.

A bad draft is a bad draft, the Knicks know all about that. What sucks is when the C's trade Johnson for Rodney Rogers and Tony Delk. Why trade a potential future star just to make the finals, the EASTERN CONFERENCE FINALS????

Then Rogers leaves so you traded Johnson for Tony Delk. The other trades are also pointless. Could have gotten Spree for Walker, a lot better than LaFrentz, who is horribly overpaid and sucks. Then the Ricky Davis trade? I have to say, if I were a Celts fan I'd be incredibly frustrated right now


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Could have gotten Spree for Walker...


Is that true, was Walker offered to us and we took Van Horn instead? Please say it ain't so.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

oakman,i can" feel" rashidi furiously scouring the internet for comparitive stats between van Horn and Walker..

I dont know if i could have bared to watch Shimmy Walker in NY...


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## 82 (Jul 11, 2002)

no, the celts turned it down. I think we offered spree for walker and the celts wanted lafrentz instead


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> A bad draft is a bad draft, the Knicks know all about that. What sucks is when the C's trade Johnson for Rodney Rogers and Tony Delk. Why trade a potential future star just to make the finals, the EASTERN CONFERENCE FINALS????


Because the Celtics had a very real chance of reaching the *NBA FINALS.* JJ is a nice player, but don't line him up for any all-star teams anytime soon. He's in the class of guys like Larry Hughes and Derek Anderson. Swingmen are a dime a dozen, Finals appearances are not.



> Is that true, was Walker offered to us and we took Van Horn instead? Please say it ain't so.


NY Propaganda. Spree for Walker doesn't make sense, Walkers not really a character guy either. Why would Boston want Spree anyway, if they already have Pierce? At least Ricky Davis is young and was acquired for bench players.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> oakman,i can" feel" rashidi furiously scouring the internet for comparitive stats between van Horn and Walker..
> 
> I dont know if i could have bared to watch Shimmy Walker in NY...


LOL... I'm not a big Walker fan either, especially for Boston cause all his attempts (er... chucks) stole from Peirce, a real player. But his athleticism and ball handling would have been a nice fit here, and he's a true 3. More than I can say for Spree or VH.

I'm still a bit more down on VH than most. Believe me, it's not that he's not playing well. It's just that each good game leaves me feeling lucky, I just don't fully trust him yet. But if he keeps it up all year and into the playoffs I'll have to relent.

But that's still not to say I think he makes us better than Spree. Spree came far closer to being voted an all-star this year and he'd mesh nicely with Marbury's tempo. Which begs the question: what might have been if we'd kept Spree for the two spot and traded Houston for a couple of front court players...


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> 
> LOL... I'm not a big Walker fan either, especially for Boston cause all his attempts (er... chucks) stole from Peirce, a real player. But his athleticism and ball handling would have been a nice fit here, and he's a true 3. More than I can say for Spree or VH.


I just remembered, he actually plays as a 4. Oh well, maybe he's not a "true" 3, but I certainly think he's well suited to that position.

I think:

Marbury
Spree
Walker
KT
Motumbo

Makes a nice lineup.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

i have always felt Houston is seriously overrated....I think Spree is a far better all around player...Houston controls the ball too much and cant pass for shiiit and doesnt break down the D...

and i wont go into his D


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

*JJ*

Rashidi,have you actually seen JJ play???

The guy has serious potential and is showing it now that he is no longer deferring to Marbury and penny...

You do realise the guy is close to 6'8" and 240 pounds and 23 y.o....DA is 6'5" 190 and hughes is 6'5" 185....

you are seriously underestimating JJ ability,potential and play..he i snot a dime a dozen swingman..Guaranteed


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> and traded Houston for a couple of front court players...


What front court players would those be? Shawn Bradley, Tariq Abdul-Wahad, and Danny Fortson?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

'What front court players would those be? Shawn Bradley, Tariq Abdul-Wahad, and Danny Fortson?"

i thought you were a Alan Houston fan???


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> What front court players would those be? Shawn Bradley, Tariq Abdul-Wahad, and Danny Fortson?


You're right, I forgot Layden was GM.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

"You're right, I forgot Layden was GM."

lol...Its amazing the difference at the garden since lay-down was fired....

I can never understand what the hell he was sooo secretive about...Its not like he was Einstein...


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> You're right, I forgot Layden was GM.


Really? And what could Thomas get for Houston? Are you naive enough to think that the Knicks can get an all-star big man out of Houston's albatross? Those 3 players I listed, like it or not, would be an even trade for Houston. Only hold up is Dallas needs height even more than we do. They can't afford to trade Bradley and Fortson for a SG. Not really remedied with Mutombo (Dallas passed when he was FA because he is slow) or Trybanski either.



> I can never understand what the hell he was sooo secretive about...


*Coughs in Stephon's general direction*


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I knew it...i knew it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I knew that sick twisted mind of yours would eventually dream up that layden was responsible for the marbury trade.....

i asume that is what you are implying..

tell me its true.....


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> *Coughs in Stephon's general direction*


funny how we learn phoenix were trying to make this happen for a year and it layden didn't get it done, yet isiah does it in a week or two. layden *wanted* everyone, it means nothing. he was too shy or cheap to pull the trigger.

anyway, at some point you have to reconcile you can't have it both ways. you can't sat isiah is a bad gm for trading our future, something the angelic layden would never do, then turn around and say marbury was layden's trade. we know you'd love the trade if layden did it, but he didn't.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

it is just eating you up alive that Layden,Eisly Chaney and the rest of laydens garbage is gone and we are playing good ball...:yes: 

I LOVE that you have egg all over your mug


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> Really? And what could Thomas get for Houston? Are you naive enough to think that the Knicks can get an all-star big man out of Houston's albatross? Those 3 players I listed, like it or not, would be an even trade for Houston.


Only if, like Layden, you are enamored of Mormons, injuries and mediocrity.

Why would we trade our best scorer for a conglomerate of bigmen no better than what we have now? Houston might not net us an all-star but there is no need to trade him for just for a bigger logjam upfront.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> I knew that sick twisted mind of yours would eventually dream up that layden was responsible for the marbury trade.....


Uh, where have you been? Short term memory again? This "dream" was reported a very long time ago.



> it is just eating you up alive that Layden,Eisly Chaney and the rest of laydens garbage is gone and we are playing good ball...


Not really.



> I LOVE that you have egg all over your mug


Speaking of dreams...



> funny how we learn phoenix were trying to make this happen for a year and it layden didn't get it done, yet isiah does it in a week or two. layden *wanted* everyone, it means nothing. he was too shy or cheap to pull the trigger.


Huh? Get the facts straight, or do I have to go article hunting?? 

Phoenix was not open to the trade at the beginning of the year, because they were going for the playoffs. Once they became the worst team in the west, they realized they'd never do better than the 1st round with the current core, and went for rebuild. They had been thinking about it for the past year, including last season, but they could not deal Marbury in the middle of a playoff run. 

It should be obvious by looking at the calendar that when the Suns gave up on Marbury (when they were last in the west) is a little before when Layden was fired.

So Dolan had Layden do the dirty work and brought in a new marketable face to complete Layden's deal. Think Knick fans would think highly of Isiah if Dolan fired Layden in the summer and forced Isiah to trade Spree? Someone had to do be the fall guy for the dirty work.



> Only if, like Layden, you are enamored of Mormons, injuries and mediocrity.


Have you looked at Houston's contract lately? Hersey Hawkins is getting 16 million this year, 

Shawn Bradley is a good shot blocker, and can still be a very effective player in the east. He doesn't have to guard Shaq in the east. He can still put up Mutomboish numbers.

Danny Fortson is one of the top rebounders in the league. What's wrong with him?

Abdul-Wahad is a good defender and rebounder at SG/SF that can't score. Why do the Knicks get stuck with him? Because Dallas has to get SOME compensation for taking on Houston's albatross. Houston 

Combined the 3 Dallas players make 16 million this year - same as Houston.

Houston (Hersey Hawkins) is owed 73 million over the next 4 years (including this year).

Danny Fortson is owed 24 million over 4 years.
Shawn Bradley is owed 18 million over 6 years.
Abdul-Wahad is owed 28 million over 4 years.

Combined they make 70 million, 3 million less than Hersey Hawkins.

Add in the fact that it's a lot easier to trade smaller contracts than it is to trade guys making 16 million and up.

Furthermore, Houston may be a good scorer now (when not hobbling), but we'll see how he's doing in the next couple years. Fortson and Abdul-Wahad will still be in working order, and I don't forsee Bradley regressing any further in the next couple years. He is what he is, big, tall, and white.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I'm sure your proposed trade is "fair", it's just another of lateral type trades the Knicks have done thru Layden's term that doesn't fill needs or upgrade any position. In my estimation the Knicks would not improve by it.

And as for if the Marbury trade were Layden's... I know he and Colangelo discussed it. The Knicks are one of few teams that had unlimited cash AND expiring contracts AND needed a point guard, so naturally if Phoenix were shopping him they'd make contact. There is simply no indication Layden would have pulled the trigger, and you yourself have insinuated as much. Just make up your mind were you stand on this. If the Marbury's ankles decompose and Vujanic and Lampe turn into Nash and Nowotzki will you still be calling this Layden's trade? I don't think so.

As for what Layden did in Utah, you defend him for getting them to the finals twice. Fine, but he inherited Stockton and Malone from his dad, two of the best players to ever play the game, and he could not win a title with them. Malone has been the league MVP and both were first team all NBA. Malone is almost universally considered the best PF ever, and Stockton is considered by many to be the best PG ever. Certainly the best "pure" PG, and certainly in the top four by almost anyone.

Perhaps you could perform some of your magnificent research and tell us which other teams in the past 25 years or so had two hall of famers and didn't win a title? I can't think of any, can you? And these guys aren't just any ol' HOFers, they are one of the best one-two combos ever!

That Layden couldn't surround these guys with the right personnel to get them over the top is a serious black eye on his tattered and dog eaten resume.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashidi,at what point do you say the layden era ended and the Thomas era began??

It seems you feel anything Isiah has done you give layden the credit..

You appear to have a very good quantitative mind..But your qualitative side is non existent...

Did the Knicks not sukkk under Layden and Chaney???
Are they not playing well under Thomas and Wilkens??

Its analogous to the Nets situation,but not quite as obvious...The team is identical to when Scott was coaching,yet now that Scott is gone they are winning and are PLAYING.....The NETS would not play for Scott..The roster hasnt changed..The COACH did...

Same thing with the Knicks..For whatever reason the Knicks did not play for Layden and Chaney...My personal feeling..They were too nice and loyal..They are good people..Its sad to see,but it is pro sports,its corporate America..

You have to wake up Rashidi....The Knick quit on layden and Chaney,and this is a bottom line business....You are as good as your last trade,and Laydens Knicks were terrible underachievers with them at the helm..They had to go,and you are certainly entitled to your opinions,but the numbers dont lie...

Layden and Chaney,although very good people were WRONG for the job


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