# OT: Patrick Ewing and his Greatness



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

I'm curious as to how most Bulls fans feel about Patrick Ewing.

I particularly enjoyed this editorial:
http://espn.go.com/page2/s/halberstam/010306.html


Read the whole thing. I was going to include a quote, but I don't want to take away from the article as the whole of it is very well thought out and articulated.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

file not found...

But Ewing definitely deserves all the accolades that he has received. Those Knick teams were some of the best IN HISTORY. If it weren't for MJ, those Knicks would have had several championships. On a team of headcases and thugs, Ewing really was the class of the group. He had the likes of Starks, Mason, Xavier McDaniel, Oakley, etc. but never did he become the utter *** that all those guys were.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Try it now...i left the L off of htmL

Sorry.

Check the article spook---the author isn't a Ewing hater...


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

I think the article is right in the sense that I'd definitely rate him behind Shaq, Hakeem, or Robinson. Yet, he was still pretty awesome... If Curry could be like Ewing, I wouldn't feel at all badly about it.

I mean, what exactly is to be said? Ewing was only the 4th best center in the last 20 years, and although deservedly a hall-of-famer, he's not "great"?

Well, if he's a certain hall-of-famer, he's great. Not on the highest level, but it's no implication that he sucks either.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> I mean, what exactly is to be said? Ewing was only the 4th best center in the last 20 years,


4th? Some posters don't rate him in the top 10...or even top 4 in the last decade.




> Well, if he's a certain hall-of-famer, he's great. Not on the highest level,


And thats what the author is saying.


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

He is for sure a hall of fame quality center, but if I were to choose one center from his era to be on my team, I would choose the Dream, the Admiral, and Shaq over him.


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## Natty Dreadlockz (Jul 21, 2003)

Personally.. I think Shaq.. The Dream and D.Rob had better supporting cast's.


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## Natty Dreadlockz (Jul 21, 2003)

That's not to take anything away from what they accomplished.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

Were I a better writer, I might have written that article. I've always felt that despite his strengths, Ewing was a fundamentally flawed player, and thus could carry a team through the play-offs every year but would eventually lose every time.

Some other players in this club?

Chares Barkley
Dirk Nowitzki
Allen Iverson
Elton Brand

There's not really any similarities between any of these guys, nor is this anywhere near a complete list, but this group of guys are players who have the ability to put up great numbers every night but who can be shut down when it matters. The flaw.

Ewing is certainly in good company.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

Ewing was a great center that just had some rough luck. The author touched upon some points that would help explain Ewing's demise towards the end. The NBA changed quickly and Ewing didn't change with it. It shuoldn't take anything away from his greatness or accomplishments. I contend that had MJ not been around, or at least the Bulls of the 90s, the Knicks would have won 2-3 championships. Honestly, it was just poor luck that Ewing ran into Hakeem when he decided to have a career year. Up until that point, Ewing had accomplished more. 

Because I hated the Knicks, I never really followed the grumblings coming from over there, so I can't say that I did hear Ewing became some egomaniac and argued for the ball. Their offense was relatively simple, but does anyone remember the Rockets of the 90s? Or the Spurs of the 90s? Or Utah even??? Houston was nothing more than kick it in to Hakeem, let the defense cave in, then throw it out for the 3. The Spurs were al about give it to Robinson and he'll either beat the center off the dribble or square up. Utah is was all pick and roll. It's hard to fault the Knicks simplistic offense when that was how all the big centers were utilized in that era. 

Ultimately I take Ewing 4th out all centers in that decade (or 20 year span). That's just a testament to the talent in that era. 

In my book, he's a top 10 center easy. 4th in the past decade is a no brainer. Who else is there? Mourning? Whether he's even a hall of famer is up for debate.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wynn</b>!
> Some other players in this club?
> 
> Chares Barkley
> ...


Nice post.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

Now now we can't mention Ewing in the same sentence as Hakeem... or Jabbar... or Chamberlain... that would be an insult to the big 3.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>sp00k</b>!
> Ewing was a great center that just had some rough luck. The author touched upon some points that would help explain Ewing's demise towards the end. The NBA changed quickly and Ewing didn't change with it. It shuoldn't take anything away from his greatness or accomplishments. I contend that had MJ not been around, or at least the Bulls of the 90s, the Knicks would have won 2-3 championships. Honestly, it was just poor luck that Ewing ran into Hakeem when he decided to have a career year. Up until that point, Ewing had accomplished more.


Ewing was a great center, no doubt, but Ewing had not come close to doing what Hakeem did for the Rockets. Hakeem turned the Rockets around from the sorry franchise that they were, had alot more individual ability than Ewing did on offense and arguably on defense than Ewing as well. Hakeem's stats were always stronger and he had more of an impact for the Rockets than all the years leading up to the '94 finals... the most exciting non-Bulls final series I've ever seen. When Hakeem was isolated in the low post, he could kill the opposition and that's why the kick out was a necessity to the Rocket game. Rudy T was never a great X's and O's coach but was the inspirational leader that the Rockets needed.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> 4th? Some posters don't rate him in the top 10...or even top 4 in the last decade.


Its not necessarily a slight to leave Ewing out of the top 10: 

Shaq, 
Robinson, 
Chamberlin, 
Kareem, 
Russell, 
Mikan, 
Hakeem, 
Moses Malone, 
Duncan and 
Chris Antsey.

this doesn't even count Willis Reed, and Yao has a shot to make hey before all is said and done...

I haven't watched near enough ball to be able to order these players. But, we could share the same respect for Ewing and still not have a place for him in the top 10.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>sp00k</b>!
> file not found...
> 
> But Ewing definitely deserves all the accolades that he has received. Those Knick teams were some of the best IN HISTORY. If it weren't for MJ, those Knicks would have had several championships. On a team of headcases and thugs, Ewing really was the class of the group. He had the likes of Starks, Mason, Xavier McDaniel, Oakley, etc. but never did he become the utter *** that all those guys were.


Spook just curious:

If you would have to drop one of either Pippen or Ewing from the NBA top 50 list, who would you choose? I think I would probably have to drop Ewing.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> Its not necessarily a slight to leave Ewing out of the top 10:
> ...


Err, that was top ten in his decade (or I guess the time he played) 

That'd kind of rule out Wilt, Russell and Mikan for sure. I guess you could argue that he played at the same time as Malone or Kareem, but they were really of different eras too. 

Malone is probably not a bad comparison. Definitely a hall-of-famer and a franchise player, but it took him, Dr. J, and Andrew Toney before his knees exploded to win a championship.

I'd venture to guess that had replaced Malone with Ewing, he'd be a champ too.


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## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>sp00k</b>!
> file not found...
> 
> Those Knick teams were some of the best IN HISTORY. If it weren't for MJ, those Knicks would have had several championships


If it wernt for MJ my suns would have had a chamionship (barkley and kj would have retired happy) and Utah would have had 2 rings as well.

MJ killed alot of our teams


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## Showtime84' (Oct 8, 2002)

The 90's Knicks? Some of the best teams in history? LOL!!!!! NO team with Patrick Ewing and John Starks as their 2 best players and offensive centerpieces should even be mentioned in the second tier of great teams.

I love the old song and dance about those Knicks winning multiple titles if it wasn't for Jordan. Can you tell me what year was that exactly?

1992- No. The Knicks would've still had to through the Cavs and Blazers wich were both vastly superior.

1993- Maybe. The only year that you could really use the "Jordan effect" as an excuse because that was the best Knicks team of the 1990's. Still my money would've been on the Suns.

1996- No freaking way those Knicks beat either Orlando or Seattle. No way!

And then you have the chokes of 1994, 1995 and 97' when Jordan was nowhere in site and still the Knicks got eliminated by teams they should've handled in Houston, Indiana and Miami.

So in retrospect, Jordan only prevented the Knicks from MAYBE wining only ONE title back in 1993, thats' it.

Those Knicks were NOT GREAT teams. They were squads full of role players build around a second tier superstar that played solid defense accompanied by deficient offense. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

Good article.

Ewing was a very good C but not a great player.maybe a great scorer but not great at any other aspect of the game.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Weak, biased article... :no: 

P-Ew wasn´t the best center in his era, for Hakeem, D-Rob and Shaq were head and shoulders above, but he was no slouch, either...

Ewing had one of the greatest work ethics imaginable, and was a beast offensivly (sp?). 
Defensivly (again sp?), he stood his ground: he was a great rebounder (remember he played severall years with Oakley) and an above-average shot-blocker and shot-changer. His presence in the lane was huge.

He was great.

And in my personal All-time top centers in the NBA, he should battle Dolph Shayes and Nate Thurmond for the 10th spot:

1- Wilt/Russell;
3- Kareem;
4- Hakeem;
5- Shaq;
6- Pettit;
7- David Robinson;
8- Moses Malone;
9- Dave Cowens;

That was a fine career, indeed...

No rings? Well, where does Chuck and Malone stand before the greatest PF of all-time?


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> Spook just curious:
> ...


Because I'm extremely biased, I would think long and hard, and then drop Scottie. Realistically though, Ewing was the centerpiece of a franchise that he brought up from the bottom. Scottie had his best years as Robin to MJ. He never lead a team to anything. In fact, I think Scottie would have never been an All Star if he never played with MJ. And I'm a HUGE Scottie fan.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

i'd say hakeem was over the course of their careers was the better player 

and in the last 5 or 6 years of ewings career, shaq was clearly better(note that ewing was 30 or 31 by the time shaq was drafted)

but i take exception to robinson's name above ewing's he was better than robinson, robinson had a better cast and more natural talent but he was a cut below ewing in alot of ways

ewing was a leader and a presence ,robinson was not 

ewing had an actual post up game he could use against anyone , robinson against the elite and strong players usually had to go out about 15 feet to be effective because despite his impressive pyhsique was not as pyhsical or as heavy as most centers so he generally couldn't get the post position he wanted 

both played great defenseand it would be splitting hairs to say anything in comaprison about it their styles of defense as they both were among the better defenders ever at the position

ewing controlled and led his team , robinson in his early years took his lead from terry cummings even though robinson was the superior player ,and in the middle years were never as good as they could have been because he couldn't control some of the talented but bothersome players to come through s.a. like rodman and strickland.ewing didn't have much trouble with players who had trouble elsewhere like strickland , mason and oakley , those players generally thrived there alongside ewing


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>The Franchise</b>!
> 
> Hakeem's stats were always stronger and he had more of an impact for the Rockets than all the years leading up to the '94 finals... the most exciting non-Bulls final series I've ever seen.


I actually felt that was one of the worst finals I had ever seen. I believe TV ratings were lowest for that Finals in years, but that was partially due to OJ.

And my argument isn't whether Ewing was better tha Hakeem or not, simply pointing out that it's not fair to fault the Knicks simplistic offense centered on Ewing when all the offenses centered around the centers were simplistic. It was the way of the times. I'd personally love to see how Hakeem would play in the Kings offense right now. He was a better passer than Miller and Divac.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Showtime84'</b>!
> The 90's Knicks? Some of the best teams in history? LOL!!!!! NO team with Patrick Ewing and John Starks as their 2 best players and offensive centerpieces should even be mentioned in the second tier of great teams.
> 
> I love the old song and dance about those Knicks winning multiple titles if it wasn't for Jordan. Can you tell me what year was that exactly?
> ...


I guess this is all really a moot point since we can't go back in time. But I feel the Knicks would have been locks in '92 and '93. The Blazers, although they had the best record in the west, didn't impress me too much. '93 the Knicks were a lock. Isn't that the year that they had home court? Pippen and Grant combined for 3 blocks in the final seconds in game 5? The Suns had no center and would have had an incredibly tough time matching up with Ewing. Not to mention the Suns weren't a physical team and the Knicks would have muscled them.

I agree, the Knicks pulled real choke jobs against Miami and Indie. Houston should have been won as well, but Hakeem had quite possibly the best year of his career. But the Indie and Miami series were after their window had closed IMO.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

And this way off topic, but how is it that Nique isn't one the Top 50 of all time?


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>sp00k</b>!
> 
> 
> Because I'm extremely biased, I would think long and hard, and then drop Scottie. Realistically though, Ewing was the centerpiece of a franchise that he brought up from the bottom. Scottie had his best years as Robin to MJ. He never lead a team to anything. In fact, I think Scottie would have never been an All Star if he never played with MJ. And I'm a HUGE Scottie fan.


No doubt,

I think Scottie is the true hallmark of the genius of Jordan. It has become trite to say that great players make players around them better, but this holds weight.

As good as Kobe/Shaq/Garnett etc... have been I don't know that they have created players. You might be able to say that Hakeem pushed a player like Kenny Smith to the next level. Maybe, Magic and Vlade, but these players were hardly hall of famers.

The only comprable situation I can think of in my short basketball life has been Bird and Mchale and the success of Parish. 

Even more off topic: how much do you want to bet that Lebron turns Boozer, Miles, Diop or ? into an all-star before his career is finished.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> No doubt,
> ...


I'm willing to bet that he turns Boozer into an all star. And I have a strong hunch that he turns Diop into someone about as effective as Cartwright was with the Bulls. Miles I'm not sure of...


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## Showtime84' (Oct 8, 2002)

It's amazing how many people overrate that 92' Knicks team just because they took the Bulls to 7 games.

They were an overachieving 51 win team that needed 5 games to beat the over the hill Pistons in the first round and this was even before John"CBA" Starks emerged as a decent second option so it was basically Patrick Ewing surrounded by a bunch plodding bodybuilders in the froncourt backed by undersized guards in the backcourt.

They would've also had to go on the road against the Cavs and Blazers.

During their 3 year run the Blazers were eliminated by Isiah, Magic and Michael. Believe you me Patrick Ewing is nowhere close to that level. The only team from the East that could defeat the Blazers in 1992 were the Bulls, no one else.

1993 is the real toss up year. The Knicks may have had a huge advantage at center but the Suns had the edge just about everywhere else as well as home court advantage. But guess what, the Knicks CHOKED away their chance letting the Bulls out of the hook after being up 2-0.

I don't know, for my money those Knicks never had that extra gear it took to win a championship and they proved it several times in 1994 against the Rockets. It was painfull to watch that 6th and 7th game.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Showtime84'</b>!
> I don't know, for my money those Knicks never had that extra gear it took to win a championship and they proved it several times in 1994 against the Rockets. It was painfull to watch that 6th and 7th game.


yet all those games against the rockets-knicks games were down to the wire.

so i guess the rockets didn't have that gear either and they just lucked into a title since they obviously didn't beat anyone to get one


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> No doubt,
> ...


this is assinine

pippen wasn't made by jordan , no more than jordan made grant or rodman .

pippen made himself into what he was .

for one thing jordan is widely considered NOT to be a pat you on the back mentor who helps you on your game 

heck during the 1st 8 years of pippens career they didn't even work out together because jordan worked out by himself and tim grover at a different facility 

i mean c'mon did magic make worthy?

situation is the same, magic came into the league 3 years prior just like jordan and pippen.

and just so you know robert parish was a pretty good player _before_ he was a celtic (he avg. 17 and 12 his last year as a warrior) so bird and and mchale had nothing to do with his ability ,he was just on a more high profile team during his tenure with the celtics


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## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

In the 1994-95 season, MJ only played 17 games, (was this his first retirement?) 

Either way, without Mj on the team for most of the season, Scottie went on to average, 21.4ppg, 8.10 rebounds, 5.2 assists, 2.94 steals and 1.13 blocks.

I would have to say thats a pretty decent season, (without MJ). Scottie was a great player, just age and injuries slowed him down.


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> In the 1994-95 season, MJ only played 17 games, (was this his first retirement?)
> 
> Either way, without Mj on the team for most of the season, Scottie went on to average, 21.4ppg, 8.10 rebounds, 5.2 assists, 2.94 steals and 1.13 blocks.
> ...


Scottie's greatest season was probably the first year that MJ retired, '93-'94. I felt he was robbed of the MVP that year.

But even given his great production over those two years, it was Toni who took the big shots and was looked for during clutch moments. '93-'94 happens to be the season in which Scottie sat out the final seconds against the Knicks where Toni hit the game winner. 

Scottie wasn't clutch offensively, which is fine IMO. My problem was that he seemed like a poor leader. Regardless, he is probably my all-time favorite Bull.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Ewing was a huge presence. He was bigger and stronger than just about anyone else from his era. That should not be discounted. No he never won a championship, but that may say more about the fact that he was a Knick for life than it did about his greatness. Clyde the Glide never won in Portland. Took his going to Houston. Payton and Malone are top tier players. They took paycuts to try and do in LA what they couldn't with their own teams.

One thing that can't be denied is that Patrick was a Hall of Fame sweat-er. NOBODY sweat like Patrick. A couple of times down the court and you could lube a Mack Truck with the perspiration that would pour from that man's body. He was slick. I have to believe that his PPG total increased by 5 just on the fact that other centers were too grossed out to body up on the man.

Pat Ewing sweat like nobody's business. You can't take that away from him and I hope that his HOF display at the Naismith Museum in Springfield MA is a slippery one.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> this is assinine
> ...


I think Jordan's intensity made Grant as well. How much did he develop after he left the Bulls--Oh thats right, he sucked. Did BJ Armstrong become an all-star point guard by himself as well? He probably would have gotten a shoe contract on his own??? He also developed a lot after he left the Bulls?



> for one thing jordan is widely considered NOT to be a pat you on the back mentor who helps you on your game


So since Jordan wasn't sucking his teammates ****, he wasn't pushing them to achieve more???



> heck during the 1st 8 years of pippens career they didn't even work out together because jordan worked out by himself and tim grover at a different facility
> 
> i mean c'mon did magic make worthy?
> 
> situation is the same, magic came into the league 3 years prior just like jordan and pippen.


Worthy had skills and his own game coming into the league. Pippen was just bad. He was scoring 8 pts agame back when rookies were expected to make impacts.



> and just so you know robert parish was a pretty good player _before_ he was a celtic (he avg. 17 and 12 his last year as a warrior) so bird and and mchale had nothing to do with his ability ,he was just on a more high profile team during his tenure with the celtics


I was wrong about Parish. Wasn't watching much Warriors Ball in 1977, but I always seem to remember Bird and Mchale being the driving force behind his game with the C's.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

Pippen was the 5th overall pick in the 1987 draft. So obviously a lot of people recognized his unique skills and thus took him that high. Pip was always destined to be good.

To say he would've never been an all star w/o MJ is ludicrous. MJ didn't taught him to play D, rebound, pass, shoot, score and have crazy athleticism. Mental toughness and competitiveness r probably the two areas where he helped Scottie the most....but thats what most great players do. To say he actually made Scottie Pippen - the best SF of the 90s - reflects how the media has brainwashed so many basketball fans into believing he was this GOD that turned everything into gold. Scottie had his best seasons w/o MJ. And the Bulls remained a pretty solid team with him leading the way. If MJ really was so good at making others better, then how come Scottie was the only teammate he ever had that was an all star more then once?? Bulls drafted a lot of promising players during the dynasty years that never really panned out. 

MJ is the greatest of all time but some of u r pushing his greatness way too far by underrating Scottie's talent. 

Pip's downfall had more to do with age and injuries since leaving the Bulls then Michael Jordan. Everybody knows what back injuries can do to one's career. I believe Scottie has had like 10+ surgeries on his back, knee and elbow since 98. Obviously going so deep in the postseason every year since joinin' the league in 87 took a serious toll on his body.


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## Marcus13 (Jul 17, 2002)

Hated him in the day

When i was young and the Bulls were good and were my favorite team, the Knicks were the only team I feared-And Patty was the leader


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## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> Ewing was a huge presence. He was bigger and stronger than just about anyone else from his era. That should not be discounted. No he never won a championship, but that may say more about the fact that he was a Knick for life than it did about his greatness. Clyde the Glide never won in Portland. Took his going to Houston. Payton and Malone are top tier players. They took paycuts to try and do in LA what they couldn't with their own teams.
> 
> One thing that can't be denied is that Patrick was a Hall of Fame sweat-er. NOBODY sweat like Patrick. A couple of times down the court and you could lube a Mack Truck with the perspiration that would pour from that man's body. He was slick. I have to believe that his PPG total increased by 5 just on the fact that other centers were too grossed out to body up on the man.
> ...



HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA 

absoloutely pissed myself laughing at this post


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SPMJ</b>!
> Pippen was the 5th overall pick in the 1987 draft. So obviously a lot of people recognized his unique skills and thus took him that high. Pip was always destined to be good.
> 
> To say he would've never been an all star w/o MJ is ludicrous. MJ didn't taught him to play D, rebound, pass, shoot, score and have crazy athleticism. Mental toughness and competitiveness r probably the two areas where he helped Scottie the most....but thats what most great players do. To say he actually made Scottie Pippen - the best SF of the 90s - reflects how the media has brainwashed so many basketball fans into believing he was this GOD that turned everything into gold. Scottie had his best seasons w/o MJ.


I would say for the most part I don't agree with CCCP, only because I hesitate to give anyone too much credit for making a player good. 

But as for how good Pippen was after Jordan left the game the first time, I don't understand how that is an argument to the contrary of what CCCP is saying. The concept is that Jordan taught Pippen how to be a great player in his early years. After Pip had learned the complete game, mental and otherwise, from Jordan, then Michael could leave the game and Scottie could retain the wisdom of Jordan.


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## Wynn (Jun 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> 
> Pat Ewing sweat like nobody's business. You can't take that away from him and I hope that his HOF display at the Naismith Museum in Springfield MA is a slippery one.


True.

Though I've got to tell you, I've got him beat. If every team had to have a really solid sweater on their bench, I'd be guaranteed an NBA job....... though likely not with the Bull, ERob's Koogi has that locked up!


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> I think Jordan's intensity made Grant as well. How much did he develop after he left the Bulls--Oh thats right, he sucked. Did BJ Armstrong become an all-star point guard by himself as well? He probably would have gotten a shoe contract on his own??? He also developed a lot after he left the Bulls?
> ...


if jordan was in fact a star maker , why only pip and grant?

why not brad sellers wasn't he a lotto pick a 7ft small forward i'm sure there was talent in that body somewhere

or stacy king he was 6th in the 89 draft ?

or will purdue who was the 11th pick in 88?

jordan didn't even get along with grant they disliked each other intensely ...in fact MJ was known in his early years for referring to grant as "dummy" for years instead of by name and was sore that krause didn't pick UNC alum joe wolf instead

In pip's and grants 1st couple of years they really didn't have that much interaction with MJ and its not just me saying it its in books about the bulls in that era(the jordan rules for instance)

michael jordan is not a king maker he didn't teach other players anything , he was not even close to any of the 1st 3 title team player outside of B.J. armstrong 

pippen wasn't bad at all he was in his 1st year similar to devean geroge and kedrick brown in the sense that he played in an extremely small school not in the ncaa's and it took him some time to get adjusted 

he was also playing behind the previous yr's 6th pick in the draft 

brad sellers

FYI a quick look at ho. grants 1st 3 years as a magic look awfully similar to his last 3 as a bull , it would seem he was the same guy, so MJ's intensity may have been overrated by you


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## clownskull (Jun 21, 2002)

i saw some people's postings of the all timers and those of last 20 yrs. interesting stuff. so i thought i would put in my 2 cents worth. ewing makes all-time top 10

1. i will give that to wilt. (great size and ability in an era where he couldn't play smash-mouth physical ball like shaq.without getting ejected or demonized for being an evil bully)
2. shaq (simply the most massive and powerful guy to ever play bball. when you can move fellow 7-footers out of the paint as easily as he can, the game gets pretty easy)
3. kareem ( the guy had solid all-around game with the nearly unblockable sky-hook.)
4. hakeem (listed as 7-footer but really 6-10, this guy was the most quick-footed and agile center of the whole bunch. great defense and perhaps unstopable when the refs would call charges. dream would use moves and skill to beat you, not a shoulder or elbow like number 2)
5.russell (best defender of the bunch. wasn't great offensively but, still pretty good.)
6. moses (strong physical guy who was the best banger in the post not named shaq)
7. robinson ( played more like a forward. not much in form of real post moves but a great shot blocker/intimadator.)
8. ewing (the guy this threads truly about. had overall skills. not the quickest or strongest but very good offensively and defensively too. the article was interesting but would have to disagree with some of it's stuff. save that for another post or it would get too long.)
9. mourning (was playing great until the kidneys went out. premium defender with solid scoring and always gave 100%)
10. parish (the chief was a really good guy to have. great passer, could rebound and had some good shooting touch.)
-guys like mikan don't make the list because big george was only 6-8 and would not be able to handle any of these guys by himself.
well, i am sure there are many who may disagree with me but these are my oppinions.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> if jordan was in fact a star maker , why only pip and grant?
> ...


I could give a crap whether Horace Grant and Jordan were haveing Pajama parties and gossiping about which of the LuvaBulls thought they were cute...You don't have to be a friend to be a leader. I'm sure I'm not the first one to say that line.

And it wasn't only Pippen and Grant. Come on, BJ Armstrong all-star, do I really have to say anything more. Nevermind Paxson, Steve Kerr, Luc Longley, even role players like Bill Wennington. Purdue, as you so aptly criticize, had put together more then he ever should have, before he left the team in the Rodman trade.

And I remember Scottie's rookie year. He was bad; bad; bad. You can color it any way you want, but everyone had him figured as a bust. Even well into his second season after he started putting up numbers, no-one thought he had much chance of becoming a star. 

I suppose this is just stupid me being brainwashed by the media into thinking everything Jordan touched turned to gold. Oh wait, everything he did touch (while under the age of forty) did turn to gold. Who is responsible for 72-10? No-one has come close to achieving that level of excellence. Jordan's will and ego was the pressure that turned coal in diamonds.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> I could give a crap whether Horace Grant and Jordan were haveing Pajama parties and gossiping about which of the LuvaBulls thought they were cute...You don't have to be a friend to be a leader. I'm sure I'm not the first one to say that line.
> ...


the fact is MJ would never help grant out because he didn't like him.in fact its documented he impeded his progress

you have no proof that he ever did becuase he didn't its that simple

pippen had back surgery after his rookie year did you know that?

it did hamper his play but i stand by he had more adjusting to the speed of the game to do than anything else

it was major reason he signed that awful contract when everyone knew it was a bad idea

do you honestly think MJ was the only reason the bulls went 72-10?

if so why didn't it happen before ?

he was in his athletic peak in the 1st 3 title teams , phil jax has said a few times that those title teams were superior to the latter ones(specifially the 91-92 team as the best of them all)

no lil man you can thank the extra wins to expansion not the MJ legend

you keep mentioning armstrong as an all star , i let it go before but ok I'll deal with it now...he was an all star when mj was playing baseball.

MJ had nothing to do with it 

grants all star season also happened when MJ was shagging flies 

also pip had the best years of his career while Mj was touring the USA in a minor league bus 

kerr's best year as a bull was w/o Mj 

MJ is not the guy you make him out to be ,a great player yes but not exactly the world's best teammate not the almighty leader you claim him to be in fact teammates claim was his equal if not better in the leadership department than michael jeffrey jordan

also in pip's 2nd season announcers,newspaper journalist raved about pippen especially after he took the starting spot a couple of months into the season, he was an obvious future star 

you need to check espn classic, because not verything he touched turned to gold and for proof check his last series in all of his 1st 6 years as a pro.

it ends with him losing


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> the fact is MJ would never help grant out because he didn't like him.in fact its documented he impeded his progress
> ...


Quite frankly I don't understand wtf any of what you write proves--besides the fact that since your arguments have run out of steam you resort to name calling (little man was a nice touch).


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

You know what Grinch you're right.

Jordan was a bad leader. His will had nothing do with BJ Armstrong making the all-star team--BJ did that on his own. He had nothing to do with Scottie becoming all time top 50--Scottie did that on his own. He had nothing to do with Horace Grant being given one of the most lucrative contracts of all time--Horace did that on his own. He had nothing to do with Phil Jackson and Jerry Krause being annointed geniuses they did that on their own. he had nothing to do with Steve Kerr having the confidence to step up and push the Spurs to the championship last year--Kerr did that on his own.

Thank you for showing me the light. Jordan was just a bad teammate???


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

One thing MJ _can_ be credited with regarding Pippen is inspiring Pippen's work ethic. I don't know if it was directly or indirectly, but I do recall reading more than once that Pippen watched Jordan and saw that Jordan just plain worked harder than anyone else. Gave 100% to his workouts, was always in top shape, always working on his game, put everything on the line at game time but also played every minute of practice -- scrimmages, drills, whatever -- as if his life depended on it. Pippen decided he wanted to excell and realized that THAT was the way to do it.

It was my hope that Pippen was here this season to pass on that knowledge, because it is all too clear that this team never got that memo.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TomBoerwinkle#1</b>!
> One thing MJ _can_ be credited with regarding Pippen is inspiring Pippen's work ethic. I don't know if it was directly or indirectly, but I do recall reading more than once that Pippen watched Jordan and saw that Jordan just plain worked harder than anyone else. Gave 100% to his workouts, was always in top shape, always working on his game, put everything on the line at game time but also played every minute of practice -- scrimmages, drills, whatever -- as if his life depended on it. Pippen decided he wanted to excell and realized that THAT was the way to do it.
> 
> It was my hope that Pippen was here this season to pass on that knowledge, because it is all too clear that this team never got that memo.


Do you remember when after every first practice a new acquisition would always be quoted in the paper saying "I can't believe how hard the Bulls work." I can't remember how many times I've seen that same article quoting a different NBA vetran pickup. Of course Jordan had nothing to do with this...


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## lorgg (Dec 8, 2003)

Would the dream have any rings were it not for Jordan's retirement? Would Drob have any if not for strike/TD? Ewing is on the same plane as these two for sure.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you remember when after every first practice a new acquisition would always be quoted in the paper saying "I can't believe how hard the Bulls work." I can't remember how many times I've seen that same article quoting a different NBA vetran pickup. Of course Jordan had nothing to do with this...


mj runs the practices too ?

sheesh and all this time I thought it was the coach 

did air jordan pick the drills too 

and run the video room?

with all that leadership ability its a wonder that the wizards finished last year in such fine spirits


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>sp00k</b>!
> 
> 
> I actually felt that was one of the worst finals I had ever seen. I believe TV ratings were lowest for that Finals in years, but that was partially due to OJ.


In terms of ratings yes, OJ Simpson was driving around with a gun to his head so naturally people wanted to know what was up with that. But I think the average victory margin was just under 3 and as a Rockets fan, I know the entire Houston was absolutely Rocket crazy and tuned into the game. Who can forget Hakeem swatting away that Starks jumper at the buzzer, and Hakeem just outdueling Ewing in a UH vs Georgetown rematch 10 or 11 years earlier... not as phenomenal as next season though, when we won it again by beating 4 50+ win teams... ahh the memories. Don't get much better than Hakeem.

And there is a reason we are called clutch city. Hakeem, Vernon Maxell, Robert Horry, Sam Cassell, Kenny Smith this was a CLUTCH TEAM!


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