# Does Kentucky have any weaknesses?



## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Anything at all that concerns you about thus Kentucky team? I haven't been sold on them all year. I still don't think that I am totally sold, but I'm getting there.


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

Talent-wise, they're untouchable - Wall and Cousins are probably the top two in the country. They're just lacking experience/polish/etc, which will very likely prevent a championship.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Outside shooting, and experience. I think they will make it to the Elite 8 at the very least (I have them in the Final 4), but I don't see them winning a championship.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Outside shooting... They have great skill & depth in the middle, great length on the perimeter, great guard play, solid defense, but they dont have that 1 dead-eye shooter that every title team seems to have.. That's the only weakness I could see.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

i would also add turnovers...they're not terrible with that but they do turn it over quite a bit, at almost 15 a game.


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

They have a salesman as coach who has no idea what he is doing on the sidelines, is unable to make any kind of adjustments and doesn't know a thing about basketball.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

^All he pretty much does is recruit NBA talent and let's them go out and play pick-up. I dont think he does much in terms of player development, but elite players seem to want to play for him to showcase their talent.


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## kansasalumn (Jun 9, 2002)

Coach C is the weekness in big game pressure ala 2008 championship. and also expierence. I think KU, Syracuse, and Duke has the best chances to win it all


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## croco (Feb 14, 2005)

kansasalumn said:


> Coach C is the weekness in big game pressure ala 2008 championship. and also expierence. I think KU, Syracuse, and Duke has the best chances to win it all


Memphis didn't lose because of Calipari, they lost because they were feeling the pressure at the end of the game and missing a ton free throws which came to bite them. Remember, the Tigers trailed at the half before eventually starting to play more loose and building a decent lead in the second half. Kansas was just as stacked with talent in 2008, a #1 seed as well and many expected KU to win the National Title.

You don't need to act like a maniac on the sidelines to get your point across.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

croco said:


> Memphis didn't lose because of Calipari, they lost because they were feeling the pressure at the end of the game and* missing a ton free throws which came to bite them*. Remember, the Tigers trailed at the half before eventually starting to play more loose and building a decent lead in the second half. Kansas was just as stacked with talent in 2008, a #1 seed as well and many expected KU to win the National Title.
> 
> You don't need to act like a maniac on the sidelines to get your point across.


Something that Calipari seemingly clearly ignored at one point stating something along the lines of, "It's not much of a problem, we'll worry about it later when it comes". A problem that everyone and their mothers saw coming. 

Now, i obviously wasn't there so i have no idea if Calipari did actually pay attention to that issue, but his comments surely didn't make it seem like he did. And well, it did become a problem, in Memphis' biggest game. ever. 

And these days, he's back at it with the arrogance, when talking about his team's perimeter shooting.


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## BlueBaron (May 11, 2003)

Blue Magic said:


> Outside shooting... They have great skill & depth in the middle, great length on the perimeter, great guard play, solid defense, but they dont have that 1 dead-eye shooter that every title team seems to have.. That's the only weakness I could see.


Actually Dodson and Miller are pretty reliable behind the arc and Bledsoe can get hot on occasion.


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## Willo (Nov 21, 2003)

Kentucky has, at times this season, played to the level of competition. This could really hurt them in the second round.


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## Rather Unique (Aug 26, 2005)

BlueBaron said:


> Actually Dodson and Miller are pretty reliable behind the arc and Bledsoe can get hot on occasion.


not trying to hate BB, but if shooting in the mid 30's % wise is reliable, then half the players in the NCAA are reliable shooters. Fact is, Kentucky is ranked somewhere in the 150's to 160's last time I checked in 3 pt. %. that's not good.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

This isn't really a weakness, but more so a cause of concern: they're 4-0 in games decided by five points or less and are also 2-0 in OT games. That might look good that they do well in close games - but considering they've played a weak schedule it shows to me that they are viewed as better than they actually are. It's going to be pretty hard to survive 3-4 close games in the tourney to win it all.

Their three biggest contributors are all freshmen, which has to be a concern. They also haven't been great defending the perimeter.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

bball2223 said:


> Outside shooting, and experience. I think they will make it to the Elite 8 at the very least (I have them in the Final 4), but I don't see them winning a championship.


This plus coaching and I think both Wall and Cousins can get careless and get into early foul trouble.


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## BlueBaron (May 11, 2003)

Rather Unique said:


> not trying to hate BB, but if shooting in the mid 30's % wise is reliable, then half the players in the NCAA are reliable shooters. Fact is, Kentucky is ranked somewhere in the 150's to 160's last time I checked in 3 pt. %. that's not good.


Oh, I get what you're saying... They are not a great shooting team, that is true. I was just saying Dodson and Miller have a nice stroke. If they got more minutes or more touches (open looks) UK's 3 point % would be a little higher.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

But they aren't going to get more minutes and more open looks. In crunch time, Wall and Bledsoe are the only guards that are going to have the ball in their hands.


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## BlueBaron (May 11, 2003)

TM said:


> But they aren't going to get more minutes and more open looks. In crunch time, Wall and Bledsoe are the only guards that are going to have the ball in their hands.


I know... Wall is at best a 10% 3 pt shooter and Bledsoe might make 2 out of 10. Wall has to stop being so damn careless when he drives to the basket. He's a great player no doubt but if I'm an NBA team there is no way I'm using my #1 pick on him.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

It's like when he's had enough, he just decides to do what i'm sure he's done his entire life - put his head down and out-athleticize (new word? ) or overpower whoever he's going against. I don't think that works against elite teams, and it definitely doesn't work against NBA guys.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

People actually think John Calipari is a bad coach?


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

I think the way Pastner's coached this year shows how much he's missed at Memphis. Cal would have that group as a top four seed.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

TM said:


> It's like when he's had enough, he just decides to do what i'm sure he's done his entire life - put his head down and out-athleticize (new word? ) or overpower whoever he's going against. I don't think that works against elite teams, and it definitely doesn't work against NBA guys.


When you are a top .1% athlete, it works better in the NBA. More space, less contact, less zone. 

People said the same thing about Derrick Rose getting by on athleticism, and we all know how that has turned out...


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Rose was a better shooter than Wall, and didn't turn the ball over as much.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Player 1: 47.7% FG, 71.2% FT, 33.7% 3-PT on 104 attempts

Player 2: 45.8% FG, 78.2% FT, 33.0% 3-PT on 88 attempts. 

Remarkably similar, wouldn't you say? 

I would say Wall's higher TO rate can be partially justified by having less help on the perimeter. The lane is also much more crowded for Wall, due to Kentucky essentially always having 2 centers on the court and less perimeter shooting.


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## coolpohle (Dec 28, 2006)

Well, I would've taken Beasley over Rose so I've been wrong before.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

To be fair, Rose really wasn't having a spectacular year until March. At which point he put in what I would consider the most dominant NCAA Tournament for a freshman this decade. 

If you viewed Rose based on his entire season, he didn't seem that special. But if you viewed the NCAA Tournament as a logical step forward in his development as a player, the #1 pick made sense.

Obviously Wall hasn't finished his season yet, but I haven't noticed the same pattern of improvement and I don't expect him to come close to matching Rose in the tournament.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Jonathan Watters said:


> People actually think John Calipari is a bad coach?


That's what I have been saying. He stockpiles talent no doubt, but you have to be doing something right as a coach to consistently win 30+ games a year.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Somehow he's convinced his guards to make a post entry pass. This is something that 90% of college coaches are seemingly unable to do. For that alone, he's a good coach.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Jonathan Watters said:


> Somehow he's convinced his guards to make a post entry pass. This is something that 90% of college coaches are seemingly unable to do. For that alone, he's a good coach.


They play defense and share the ball well too, that's coaching and he deserves credit for that.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Jonathan Watters said:


> and we all know how that has turned out...


If I recall, he also got a jump shot


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jonathan Watters said:


> Somehow he's convinced his guards to make a post entry pass. This is something that 90% of college coaches are seemingly unable to do. For that alone, he's a good coach.


He's a good defensive coach tru, but when people talk about his player development skills is when I think he becomes overrated.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

When you see the way that players like Chris Douglas-Roberts, Derrick Rose, Joey Dorsey, Robert Dozier and DeMarcus Cousins have improved under his watch, hard for me to agree with you that his player development is overrated.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

TM said:


> If I recall, he also got a jump shot


Wall doesn't have an uncorrectable jumper at all. Not a concern at this point.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

Jonathan Watters said:


> Wall doesn't have an uncorrectable jumper at all.


Agreed. NBA future - with a few thousand shots, it may easily turn out as well as it did for Rose, maybe better



Jonathan Watters said:


> Not a concern at this point.


Might be a potential concern for Kentucky here in a week or two, which was my point initially (Re: Does Kentucky have any weaknesses?)

my goodness, JW. gotta clarify super well nowadays. what happen to the days of you reading my mind???


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Yeah, perimeter shooting definitely a concern for Kentucky. Not as much of a concern as it would be for a team without the #1 post player in the country, but definitely a weakness.


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

#2 broooo. #1 Brian Zoubek is with the Doooookies!!!! hahahahahahha


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jonathan Watters said:


> When you see the way that players like Chris Douglas-Roberts, Derrick Rose, Joey Dorsey, Robert Dozier and DeMarcus Cousins have improved under his watch, hard for me to agree with you that his player development is overrated.


Guys like Rose, Evans, Wall, & Cousins were all top 2 recruits @ their position. I mean i'm not saying he's poor at player development, just that he's overrated. What happened to 5* guys like Willie Kemp, Darius Washington, Shawne Williams, etc? He's decent, but the only guys he's coached that have blown up under him came out of HS ranked top 2 @ their position.... 

Dozier, CDR, & Dorsey all became some pretty nice players, but like I said, aside from those guys already ranked top 2 coming in, his development seems pretty average to me. I dont think it's that hard to take a #1 or #2 ranked player and 'develop' them into impact players. He gets credit for developing Rose, Wall, Cousins, Evans but let's be real, those guys were going to be great @ almost any school they went to that didn't handcuff them..


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## TM (Jun 30, 2003)

But there's no need to develop guys. When you know you're only going to have them 1-2 years, there's no problem if you develop a guy or not.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> Guys like Rose, Evans, Wall, & Cousins were all top 2 recruits @ their position. I mean i'm not saying he's poor at player development, just that he's overrated. What happened to 5* guys like Willie Kemp, Darius Washington, Shawne Williams, etc? He's decent, but the only guys he's coached that have blown up under him came out of HS ranked top 2 @ their position....
> 
> Dozier, CDR, & Dorsey all became some pretty nice players, but like I said, aside from those guys already ranked top 2 coming in, his development seems pretty average to me. I dont think it's that hard to take a #1 or #2 ranked player and 'develop' them into impact players. He gets credit for developing Rose, Wall, Cousins, Evans but let's be real, those guys were going to be great @ almost any school they went to that didn't handcuff them..


Shawne Williams who played one season? Kemp who got lost in the shuffle behind Rose and Evans? Washington who was supremely overrated coming out of high school? You can't develop them all, even guys like Pitino, Coach K, Roy, and Calhoun can't develop everybody to their full potential. 

Forget Evans ranking coming out of high school, do you remember how bad he looked at times at the beginning of last year? He got way better as the season went on, but he was a top 5 recruit coming out so Cal gets no credit for his development. Rose got better and better as the season went on, Cousins has done the same thing. 

Calipari does not deserve some of the criticism he gets for lack of development because most of his best talent is only there for one season anyways.


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## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

Youth... lots of close calls but won them. So they do have experience when the game is on the line, thats not a problem, the problem is their youth.

I think the first two rounds should be a breeze for them, they will get over that "I can't believe i'm here" look but once the big teams starts to come in waves after the 3rd round then they will have problems.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

thatsnotgross said:


> Youth... lots of close calls but won them. So they do have experience when the game is on the line, thats not a problem, the problem is their youth.
> 
> I think the first two rounds should be a breeze for them, they will get over that "I can't believe i'm here" look but once the big teams starts to come in waves after the 3rd round then they will have problems.


This is how I picture the tournament going for them as well. I think the first game will be close for a half, then they will walk until the sweet 16.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

Blue Magic said:


> Guys like Rose, Evans, Wall, & Cousins were all top 2 recruits @ their position. I mean i'm not saying he's poor at player development, just that he's overrated. What happened to 5* guys like Willie Kemp, Darius Washington, Shawne Williams, etc? He's decent, but the only guys he's coached that have blown up under him came out of HS ranked top 2 @ their position....


Willie Kemp was no 5-star. As for Washington and Williams, you can't win them all, and both were pretty stinking good college players in their day. 

I'll take the % of Calipari's recruits that have reached their potential against any other coach in the country's. Considering he tends to recruit more knuckleheads than most coaches, I'd say he's doing pretty good. 

Do you honestly see DeAndre Liggins coming back and contributing for other coaches after being that far in the doghouse? How about Patrick Patterson accepting a secondary role and actually developing a 3-point shot? 



> Dozier, CDR, & Dorsey all became some pretty nice players, but like I said, aside from those guys already ranked top 2 coming in, his development seems pretty average to me. I dont think it's that hard to take a #1 or #2 ranked player and 'develop' them into impact players. He gets credit for developing Rose, Wall, Cousins, Evans but let's be real, those guys were going to be great @ almost any school they went to that didn't handcuff them..


I look at Cousins vs Favors. Rose vs Mayo. Evans vs Jennings. 

You are telling me Calipari doesn't deserve credit for developing those guys? If I was a McD's AA, I'd want to play for Cal too...


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

bball2223 said:


> Shawne Williams who played one season? Kemp who got lost in the shuffle behind Rose and Evans? Washington who was supremely overrated coming out of high school? You can't develop them all, even guys like Pitino, Coach K, Roy, and Calhoun can't develop everybody to their full potential.
> 
> Forget Evans ranking coming out of high school, do you remember how bad he looked at times at the beginning of last year? He got way better as the season went on, but he was a top 5 recruit coming out so Cal gets no credit for his development. Rose got better and better as the season went on, Cousins has done the same thing.
> 
> Calipari does not deserve some of the criticism he gets for lack of development because most of his best talent is only there for one season anyways.


What criticism does he get for lack of development? I'm saying that he gets too much credit for development. 



Jonathan Watters said:


> Willie Kemp was no 5-star. As for Washington and Williams, you can't win them all, and both were pretty stinking good college players in their day.
> 
> I'll take the % of Calipari's recruits that have reached their potential against any other coach in the country's. Considering he tends to recruit more knuckleheads than most coaches, I'd say he's doing pretty good.
> 
> ...


No, I said in my 1st post that players go to Cal because he let's the showcase what they can do, good or bad. That's his MO... But at the end of the day, I wouldn't consider his one-and-done system as player development. Most of his signature 'developments' were highly rated McDAA's coming out, and were physically and/or athletically NBA ready. When I think about development, a guy like Matt Bonner, Haslem, J. Noah, Speights, or Horford come to minds. Guys that were'nt ranked top 10 @ their position, but now have serviceable NBA careers. 

Guiding a top 2 recruit to the NBA after 1-2 yrs is nice, but for people to mention his development so much of PG's when all those guys were highly touted and projected, makes his abilities seem a bit overstated. Like I said, he let's them showcase what they can do without handcuffing them, so props for that... But alot of those would've been great almost anywhere, IMO. JMO


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Handcuffing players doesn't necessarily stunt their development either. Jordan might as well have had one of those cartoon boulders chained to his ankle when he was at UNC.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

> When I think about development, a guy like Matt Bonner, Haslem, J. Noah, Speights, or Horford come to minds. Guys that were'nt ranked top 10 @ their position, but now have serviceable NBA careers.


Anthony Roberson. James White. Nick Calathes. Jai Lucas. All burger boys recruited by Donovan that don't have serviceable NBA careers. 

And Billy Donovan is a single coach who we all agree has a very good track record. You'll have to do better than that.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

I just don't think it is right to say that somebody who recruits highly ranked players can't ever get credit for developing them. 

Have Cal's highly ranked players done better than similarly ranked players? Have they grown not just as talents but as winners under his tutelege? 

The answers are without a doubt yes.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

> Anthony Roberson. James White. Nick Calathes. Jai Lucas. All burger boys recruited by Donovan that don't have serviceable NBA careers.
> 
> And Billy Donovan is a single coach who we all agree has a very good track record. You'll have to do better than that.


I see what you're saying, but Roberson or Calathes' development were no worse than a guy like Washington's development. That's what I'm saying. These last 3 guards Cal pulled in were known for their elite athleticism in HS, and/or in Reke's case their NBA ready body. 

*Roberson could score at will, but to NBA scouts he was just an undersized SG... Not great athletically, nor did he have an NBA body. He was just a shooter.

*Nick was a great player and definitely Billy's best since JWill, but his main issue again, was his measurables. Lack of athleticism/explosion laterally & vertically, and lack of NBA ready body were the main things holding him back. 

These weaknesses of theirs were the strengths of Wall/Rose/Evans coming in. All were dubbed elite athletes or with the NBA measurables before they stepped on campus. Watch their ridiculous HS tapes. This isn't a knock on Cal, I just think it's overblown when people say he 'develops' PG's. Those guys were ready made for the NBA, IMO. Not discrediting Cal, just not crediting him for the insane athleticism or quickness of a Wall or Rose. Those guys came in as studs and everybody knew it.

*James White transfered after a paintball incedent his freshman yr, and Jai Lucas was homesick. Both were only here for one year. I remember Billy was working on White's jumper, but that incedent happened and then he left. David Lee was the only one in that class who stuck around and he turned out alright. If Kwame and White stuck around, you never know... White's problem is still his 1-dimensional game. He coulda been better than Brewer if he ever developed that jumper.


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## Jonathan Watters (Jul 20, 2002)

I agree with everything you said. 

But you are the one who wants to dock Calipari for Darius Washington not having elite athleticism and Shawne Williams for being a complete knucklehead. Not me. 

I want to look at the big picture - how have Cal's recruits done against comparable recruits from other programs? 

And the answer is obvious...


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