# MVP Discussion 10-11; Update: Rose named MVP



## SheriffKilla

Ok obviously it's way too early but at the same time it's never too early, haha.
It's been a week now but no clear candidate has emerged. I expect this season to be a very close MVP race but people probably won't be interested in it as much, since the 2 guys considered the 2 best players probably won't be in it. Kobe is at that stage of his career where he saves his best for the playoffs and of course LeBron has to share the spotlight with a couple of guys.
Anyway after the first week I'd probably give it to Chris Paul since the Hornets are undefeated and he has been running that team almost perfectly, but here is my All NBA team for the 1st week:

C: *Pau Gasol* - Playing center for the Lakers right now and last year was his best season of his career but he looks even better this season. Lamar Odom looks terrific out there as well and these 2 are like siamese twins out there. Connected at the brain.

PF: *Luis Scola* - The Rockets have had a disappointing start but Scola is putting up some huge numbers. 27/14 on 57% FG shooting, is like Shaq in his prime. Of course I don't think he'll keep it up but for the first week I had to have him on here.

G: *Derrick Rose* - I'm going with a 3 guard line up because there was 3 guys that all stood out to me so much that I couldn't ignore. Rose has really stepped it up, and he might be doing what Durant did in his 3rd season last year. Of course, we have people now calling him the best PG in the NBA.

G: *Russell Westbrook* - To me, from what I've seen Westbrook has been even more impressive than Rose. While he isn't scoring quite as much as Rose, he is doing a lot better all around and especially passing and defense. Of course Westbrook has Durant to take a lot of the pressure off. In their head to head match up Westbrook had 28/10/6 to Rose's 28/4/6 but held Derrick to 12 from 31 shooting.

G: *Chris Paul* - Well he is back and nobody runs an offense like this guy. And when I say runs I mean runs. With the ball in his hands it seems he literally controls and anticipates every move the other 9 guys on the court are going to make. It's really amazing to watch for a basketball purist. He makes an effort to let his teammates get going the first 3rd quarters. Than when he wants to he takes over and goes on scoring spurts, especially toward the end of the game. Not only is he the MVP of the first week but, as I said as soon as LeBron signed to the Heat, he has just as good a chance to win the MVP as Kevin Durant.


So yeah, next Monday I will give an update for 2 weeks but that's my team so far. A lot of great performances out there so far so this was pretty hard to make. I wanted to recognize someone from the Hawks but it has been more of a team effort for their 3-0 start and of course Monta Ellis and Stephen Curry have both looked terrific but not quite as great as the 3 guards I had. More than a handful of other guys I also considered.


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## SheriffKilla

*Re: MVP so far (2010-11)*

Update through Week 2

1. *Dwight Howard* - Looks Hakeem payed off for him, should be the one coaching this guy not Ewing. His offensive game looks better than I have ever seen and he is as dominant as ever defensively. Really does look like prime-Shaq out there, finally.

2. *Chris Paul* - Hornets are still undefeated and of course he is pretty much the team but hasn't been quite as dominant overall as Howard, even though I wouldn't have a problem giving it to either one of the 2 at this point.

3. *Pau Gasol* - I know he is getting MVP consideration after that triple-double and he deserves it no doubt but he hasn't been as amazing as the 2 guys ahead of him. Still this is the best I've seen him play and looks like this is going to be his peak season and that means he could actually stay in this conversation for the whole year.

4. *Dwyane Wade* - Well the Heat have a couple of losses but they have been pretty dominant otherwise and he is easily their best player so far. He has had no problem working with his 2 (super)star counterparts and I think this might be the season he officially passes Kobe(except for Laker/Kobe fanboys).

5. *Al Horford* - Well he only plays 30 minutes a game and I could have easily given this spot to Kobe or some other guys that have played really well so far like Paul Millsap and Luis Scola but I don't think people realize how good he has been so I wanted to show him some love. He hasn't made RAPID strides but has improved every season in the NBA so far and is now clearly one of the better big men in the NBA. Always rebounded the ball well, has been a solid inside defender and good finisher, now his mid range jumpers are really going and he is actually one of the better passers at his position in the league as well. I know the Hawks are never on national TV and they get no love because of their playoff failures but they are still 6-2 and he has been their best player without a doubt.


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## SheriffKilla

*Re: MVP so far (2010-11)*

Interestingly Durant was no where near this list IMO. I know he has been sort of cold shooting the ball but for a guy who was almost a consensus favorite to win the award in the pre-season he hasn't been that impressive. Westbrook has been clearly their best player and Jeff Green arguably has played better than Durant if you consider the cold shooting. Of course that aspect should and almost surely will improve but he hasn't been overly impressive in other categories either.


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## Jakain

*Re: MVP so far (2010-11)*

To me the two leading candidates are Chris Paul and Dwight Howard with the nod going towards CP3 since the Hornets have had more impressive wins and a tougher schedule. Imo Dwight's been destroying teams that he's been destroying even before his workouts with Hakeem/Malone/etc so I'm really not as impressed compared to the wins CP3 has had.


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## futuristxen

*Re: MVP so far (2010-11)*

Yeah right now it's between CP3 and Howard. I give CP3 the edge because he has less to work with than Howard, and he beat the Heat. Whereas Howard's team got their ass's kicked in.

What do people think about Rondo as a candidate if he keeps up his assist numbers?


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## Dre

*Re: MVP so far (2010-11)*

I think either Paul or Howard are overdue for it so they'll get it. Probably the Magic because they'll have a better record. 

I'm certainly glad Paul is coming out beasting..there were people in here saying some foolish stuff about him while he was injured.


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## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP so far (2010-11)*

Gasol deserves mention based on the small sample we have so far. 24ppg, 11rpg, 5apg shooting 54%fg and 80%fg. He has been unguardable thus far. Lakers are destroying teams.


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## Luke

*Re: MVP so far (2010-11)*

Wade hasn't been better than Kobe so far, but then again neither one of them have played up to standards. Dwight is probably the frontrunner as of now with Chris Paul right behind him.

Kobe, LeBron, and Durant will enter the conversation soon enough.


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## futuristxen

*Re: MVP so far (2010-11)*

A lot will depend on final records. I don't know that Dwight can win it if the Magic don't win the East. The Hornets probably don't need to win the West, but they do need to get homecourt I would think.


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## Wilmatic2

*Re: MVP so far (2010-11)*

Chris Paul and Pau Gasol. Rondo with an honorable mention.


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## Tooeasy

*Re: MVP so far (2010-11)*



Dre™ said:


> I think either Paul or Howard are overdue for it so they'll get it. Probably the Magic because they'll have a better record.
> 
> I'm certainly glad Paul is coming out beasting..there were people in here saying some foolish stuff about him while he was injured.


I chuckled when I read a lebron tweet after the heat/hornets game sayin people need to recognize cp3 as the best pg in the league. I know these two are boys but I thought that was quite an honor considering paul just dismantled the heat and the first thing lebron does is go and praise him on the internets


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## Wade County

*Re: MVP so far (2010-11)*

CP3 or Pau in the early going. Dwight would be there also.


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## Ballscientist

*Re: MVP so far (2010-11)*

mvp needs to win and make his teammate better.

Losing teams and the stars who make his teammates worse should not be MVP.


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## Noyze

*Re: MVP so far (2010-11)*



Tooeasy said:


> I chuckled when I read a lebron tweet after the heat/hornets game sayin people need to recognize cp3 as the best pg in the league. I know these two are boys but I thought that was quite an honor considering paul just dismantled the heat and the first thing lebron does is go and praise him on the internets


You could tell CP3 was alittle disappointed when he was injured, some people like Charles Barkely chose D-Will over him when he was on Inside the NBA (casual basketball fans respect Barkely's opinion).

Was hard to argue at the time since D-Will was playing so well and the Jazz were winning. But when Paul is healthy I just don't think it's even a close comparison. Unfortunately Paul will fall short of the MVP. Hornets will prob win around 54 games. If the Magic win close to 60 wins again Dwight will win it or if the Thunder win 55 and Durant goes on to score 35 in 10 straight games in the 2nd half of the season he will win it.

But if they all play how how they are playing right now this will be a close race and team record will play a huge factor.


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## kbdullah

*Re: MVP so far (2010-11)*



futuristxen said:


> A lot will depend on final records. I don't know that Dwight can win it if the Magic don't win the East. The Hornets probably don't need to win the West, but they do need to get homecourt I would think.


I think if the Magic could finish above the Celtics and below the Heat, Dwight could still take it. People will still see Lebron, Wade, and Bosh as a collective whereas the Magic are pretty much Dwight and a bunch of third-tier guys. As long as the Magic finish ahead of Rondo and the Celtics, Dwight's going to be a threat.


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## Spaceman Spiff

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Terrence Williams 

/thread


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## Basel

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Right now, it's CP3 and I expect him to be in the mix all season long along with Dwight Howard. If the Thunder get going as well and earn a high seed out West, Kevin Durant will be in the discussion as well.


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## HB

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Dwight and Cp3


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## SheriffKilla

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Ok, I watched a lot of basketball today. Besides Heat/Jazz and some of Blazers/Pistons and Lakers/Wolves I also had a couple of games taped and I watched some of those too. So I'm making an update and this time I'm pretty confident with the order.

1. Chris Paul - not putting up extraordinary number by his standards but his team is finally winning games and has done everything they could to convince people they could be a legit contender to the Lakers out West so he does deserve this spot.

2. Dwayne Wade - I still don't think the Heat are AS disappointing as people make them out to be. They lost their last 2 games by a combined 5 points, and the other game they lost was the 1st game of the season against Boston. Wade has been spectacular. Considering he has Bosh and LeBron to share the ball with this is probably the best he has played in his career so far. Amazing that he still leads the league in usage.

3. Dwight Howard - not quite as great as I thought he was after seeing more of him, I just happen to catch some moments where his offensive game was really going but in reality he hasn't improved offensively AS MUCH as I originally thought. Even though he is surely a lot better.

4. Kobe Bryant - Just like Howard after watching more Lakers I now realize that Kobe is still their best player. Gasol is playing basically just as good but I gotta give Kobe the slight edge. I think this year is the first time I'm actually seeing Kobe reading the plays and making the best decision that needs to be made at that point, instead of deciding whether he is going to shoot or pass as soon as the Lakers get the ball.

5. Pau Gasol - Basically just as good as Kobe and I could easily have had him at 4 instead but people(including myself) were saying that Gasol might actually be the Lakers best player this year. I , especially as a Kobe "hater", wanted to give Kobe props and show that I still think he is the better player.

I'm going to fill out the rest of the top 10, since I did this sort of the top of my head, and even though I've watched more NBA basketball in this 2 week period than any other 2 week period I have in years, still this might be missing some guys so don't take it TOO seriously.

6. Paul Millsap - Is he better than Boozer, I think it's pretty damn close.

7. Al Horford - talked about him in my post yesterday.

8. Russell Westbrook - with all the hype for Rose this guy has been even more impressive. I don't know if you guys get this, but I always have certain player that seem to play extra good or bad whenever I watch. Well Westbrook is one of those players that really becomes unstoppable whenever I turn on a Thunder game.

9. Stephen Curry - Look Derrick Rose is cool but I still think he is overrated and while I don't think Curry is actually a better player and might never be better, that doesn't mean he hasn't played better than Rose this year.

10. LeBron James - They lost today but James played really well at some points, he is still getting adjust to the Heat but as I said I think people who are panicking and saying that the Heat are a pretender are badly overreacting. 

As far as Derrick Rose, I know some people really love this guy and I think he is a great player but he is scoring 23.8 points on 21 shots, so that's not impressive. Especially since he is also playing very high minutes per game (compared to some other guys that I feel have played just as well) and also averaging close to 5 turnovers a game. Those stats probably seem worse than his actual play because he has been the unquestioned leader of the Bulls and a lot of those shots and turnovers come because of his offensively incompetent teammates but still this guy isn't as amazing as people make him out to be. He is far from the best point guard in the league, that's for sure.


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## Kidd

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Spaceman Spiff said:


> Terrence Williams
> 
> /thread


How many more times until it gets old?


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## Noyze

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Yeah, the only reason Paul didn't put up huge numbers last night is because he only played 28 mins, they were blowing out the Clippers. He didn't play at all in the 4th.


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## Diable

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

The Hornets are making a very deliberate effort to limit Paul's minutes. He must be down around 34 minutes a game after last night, maybe even under that. In the past he'd have to play Iverson minutes for them to compete with good teams, but thus far their bench has performed well enough to keep him rested. That in spite of the fact that Bayless hadn't done anything before last night. 

Monty Williams has gotten that team to play terrific defense and that's been the reason Paul has been able to play so little. Mostly he's just tried to run the offense, keep everyone involved and he only rocks the cape when the team needs a hero.


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## PatronJames

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

After last night, Paul Millsap will be named the 2011 Most Valuable Player.

Throw in Elton Brand for the homer vote too!


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## OneBadLT123

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Its Paul, Gasol and Milsap in that order right now.

I dont know where to put Howard since I honestly have not seen an Orlando game yet.


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## HB

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

How can anyone put Millsap over Deron? They are 5-3 by the way....hardly in the conversation for MVP.


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## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Lol at Millsap being on there. I keep it as a general policy to disinclude players that aren't even the best player on their team in these kinds of rankings.


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## SheriffKilla

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Lol at Millsap being on there. I keep it as a general policy to disinclude players that aren't even the best player on their team in these kinds of rankings.


So you wouldn't include Gasol?


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## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



SheriffKilla said:


> So you wouldn't include Gasol?


Alright let me rephrase that - I make it a general policy to disinclude second options that aren't top fifteen players in their own right. Pippen, young Kobe, Gasol ect. absolutely belong in the *discussion* but shouldn't really be taken seriously as canidates considering they're not even the best player on their teams, let alone the league.


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## OneBadLT123

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I dont see whats wrong with including Misap in this discussion since its been only 6-8 games into the season. But looking at Milsap's numbers over the course this short season, you cant ignore the numbers and results.


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## Dre

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Not to knock anyone but don't you think it's fruitless to be talking about MVP when you're just crossing 1/8th of the season's progress? It's usually something that gets play come February.


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## e-monk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dre™ said:


> Not to knock anyone but don't you think it's fruitless to be talking about MVP when you're just crossing 1/8th of the season's progress? It's usually something that gets play come February.


too much of this kind of thinking would make for some very quiet forums


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## SheriffKilla

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dre™;6404619 said:


> Not to knock anyone but don't you think it's fruitless to be talking about MVP when you're just crossing 1/8th of the season's progress? It's usually something that gets play come February.


Yeah, I just enjoy doing this and it creates discussion so why not?
Anyway, update:

*1. Pau Gasol (22.9 12.2 3.9 10-2)* - Gotta give it to him at this point now, even with those 2 Laker losses, he is looking like Duncan/KG from a few years ago out there.

*2. Chris Paul (17.8 4.8 10.2 9-1)* - Hard to take it away from him especially since those per game numbers don't do him justice, what he is doing for this team is just amazing but still gotta give Gasol the edge.

*3. Al Horford (17.2 8.8 3.3 8-4)* - I know he isn't going to be up here when all said and done but at this point I gotta give him this spot. If you don't believe me look at his advanced numbers (+/-, PER and Win Shares are all excellent) Obviously that's not the only thing I base this on but it's a big part especially 10 games into the season, those numbers start to make sense and since I still haven't seen everyone play I have to use them. I have seen Horford a few times this season and he has improve a lot and has no doubt been the Hawks best player but I doubt he is going to keep up this level play. Even though I do think he has a pretty good chance to be the Hawks best player throughout the season.

*4. Dwight Howard (21.2 10.9 1.5 7-3)* - Not as dominant as he was early in the season and I haven't seen any Magic games the last week or so but still gotta have him here at this point.

*5. LeBron James (22.1 5.8 8.9 7-4)* - Magic/Pippen for the Heat out there. Gotta give him the edge over Kobe/Wade/Dirk right now. 

Obviously Luis Scola, Paul Millsap and Russell Westbrook are still having really really good seasons as well. Kevin Durant has been coming on but I'm starting to wonder if Westbrook is their best player. I know that's going to cause a stir since it's only 10 games in or w/e so people are going to say I'm overreacting but this is based on last season as well, when Westbrook showed great potential. Sometimes I think that maybe Durant's season last year was the best he is ever going to be and he just happened to be hot during a lot of games, we will see how much he actually improves his all around game.


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## Kneejoh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I don't see any consistency in your rankings. How did Kobe fall out of the top 5 when he's been playing better than at the beginning of the season?


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## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Yeah, Kobe should be in the top 5. Kobe is putting up elite production and his only playing 33 minutes a game. 

Chris Paul is my MVP so far, but Kobe is in the top 5.


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## Ben

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Brian said:


> How many more times until it gets old?


Hey, people are still going with the Basel sucks stuff..get used to it.


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## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Dwight's been playing very well. His post game seems to come and go, but he's always cleaning up the Magic's ****-ups. As always, he changes every game with his defense. To put Al Horford above him is doing a disservice to Howard. Horford's not in that dude's class. I understand he's been playing well and you're using John Hollinger logic, but there's no way he's more valuable than Dwight. No way.

Pau, Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Dwight, CP3, Rondo and Millsap as a darkhorse make up my own personal MVP race at the moment.


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## SheriffKilla

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



thug_immortal8 said:


> I don't see any consistency in your rankings. How did Kobe fall out of the top 5 when he's been playing better than at the beginning of the season?


Well first of all I watch of a lot games not live. So I may have seen some earlier Laker games (don't remember honestly) 2nd of all LeBron is starting to step up and really get adjusted in that Miami offense.


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## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



SheriffKilla said:


> Well first of all I watch of a lot games not live. So I may have seen some earlier Laker games (don't remember honestly) 2nd of all LeBron is starting to step up and really get adjusted in that Miami offense.


Now please explain why you put James over Dwyane Wade.


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## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

We didn't have an active thread up so I just decided to sticky this one instead of making another thread.


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## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

ESPN has this as it's current list -

1.) Dwight Howard
2.) Russell Westbrook
3.) Kobe Bryant
4.) Derrick Rose
5.) Deron Williams
6.) Dirk Nowitski
7.) Chris Paul
8.) Carmelo Anthony
9.) Manu Ginobli
10.) Kevin Garnett

Wow; this is a golden age for point guards. Four of the top seven are ones. Crazy.


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## Xeneise

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Lebron Wade and Durant not in the top 10 is scary/amazing.


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## hobojoe

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Xeneise said:


> Lebron Wade and Durant not in the top 10 is scary/amazing.


...and refreshing to see, because they shouldn't be at this point in the season based on what they've done *this year*.


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## Dre

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

lol @ the first post having Scola in it


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## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

So it seems like Dwight is the consensus number one canidate right now, anyone disagree?

Westbrook and Rose have been coming on really strongly too, can't really have a top five without them at this point. Crazy how much can change in a year.


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## HB

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Did this guy put Al Horford over DWight? Really?


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## kbdullah

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Yeah, I'd say Dwight is #1 right now. I'd have Kobe and Dirk in the second tier, and then Deron, Westbrook, Rose, and Paul in the third tier after that. As well as the Celtics and Spurs have been playing, it's hard to single out any one player on their roster as being MVP-caliber, so I'm not going to go out of my way to suggest a name from their squads.


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## RollWithEm

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

It seems that no candidates are really standing out to me at this point of the season. Here's my reasoning for each major candidate:


*Dwight Howard* - He's getting the ball more than ever this season (career high 28.2% USG). This has led to a slight increase in FTA, FGA, and PPG. The problem is that he's shooting a career low from the free throw line (which is also contributing to his relatively low TS%), turning the ball over more than ever before, not getting any offensive rebounds (career low), and dishing out barely one assist per game (lowest since his rookie year). This all adds up to his overall offensive efficiency dropping significantly from previous years. Along with that, his team is 2 games worse in the standings than they were at this time last year. What no one seems to be talking about, though, is that he may be playing the best defense of his career. 

The way I see it, he's the DPOY... but not the MVP.

*Dirk Nowitzki* - Just like Dwight, his scoring and turnovers are up while his rebounding, FT%, and assists have fallen slightly. Unlike Dwight, his team is actually 3 games better than they were at this time last year. The only reason Dirk's play has stood out is that his overall offensive efficiency has climbed due to him hitting an abnormally high percentage of his 2-point shots. 

Looks like the same old Dirk to me... not quite the MVP.

*Kobe Bryant* - He's scoring, rebounding, assisting, and defending just like the Kobe of the last 3 seasons. The only difference is that he's shooting worse from the field than he has since '04 and worse from 3 than he has since '01. After 21 games, his teams is 3 games worse than they were last year. 

MVP? I'm not seeing it right now.

*James/Wade/Bosh* - All their individual stats are down. It will be real tough for any of them to contend for an MVP unless their team success is undeniable (i.e. 71+ win-pace).

*Kevin Durant* - His scoring and shooting numbers (from the field) are down, but the rest of his statistics are pretty similar to his past 2 seasons. His team is 2 games better than they were at this time last year. 

I suspect he will be right in the MVP discussion by the end of the season when his percentages trend back towards the mean... but not right now!

*Deron Williams* - His offensive efficiency is slightly up from his career levels. His shooting numbers are all right around his career averages. His defense is notably improved. His team is 3 games better than they were at this time last year with a lot of new faces.

Is he the MVP of the first quarter of the season? Hmmm... maybe.

*Derrick Rose* - He's doing everything more. He has the ball more than ever, he's shooting it more, he is dishing out more assists, he's rebounding more, he's defending better, and his win shares and PER are at career levels. He has his team playing better than ever (currently sitting 4th in the East).

Does that make him the MVP or just a steadily improving 3rd year player? I'm leaning towards the latter.

*Rajon Rondo* - Everyone knows that his assist rate is at an historically high level and that his team is playing really well up to now. What else does he have going for him? His scoring has dropped a little while his defense and rebounding have stayed about the same. He's shooting really well from the field but a career low from the line. His turnovers are at a career high despite his usage rate being lower than normal.

Is he really playing at an MVP level? I'd say he's not too close.

*Manu Ginobili* - He's been the best player on the league's best (and most surprising) team so far. He's pretty much playing at exactly the same efficiency levels he always does. He's just playing more minutes. As a result, his raw production has increased slightly in almost every category.

Does that make him an MVP candidate? Sure. Does it make him the front-runner? Nope.

*Pau Gasol/Kevin Garnett* - Both these guys are having very nice season, but is either a legit MVP candidate? Not really.

*Russell Westbrook* - Wow. This guy is playing out of his mind! Top 10 in scoring, assists, and steals... second best PER in the league... career high win shares rate... has his team playing pretty well (2 games better than last year's pace)... but his he the MVP?

*Chris Paul* - He's back folks. He leads the league in PER, WS, and SPG. The only reason he doesn't lead the league in assist rate is Rondo's insane number. Besides that, he's actually shooting better than he ever has BY FAR (4th among PGs behind only Steve Nash and Steve Blake who are always near the top and Mike Bibby who is shooting the lights out so far this year). He's actually shooting far better than Deron Williams, Russell Westbrook, Derrick Rose, or any other PG in this discussion. For those of you who think CP3 only puts up good stats because the ball's in his hands more often than other PGs, he's actually 23rd in the league among PGs in usage rate! He's not only behind every other PG in the MVP discussion by leaps and bounds but also behind guys like former teammate Darren Collison and current teammate Jarrett Jack! And oh by the way, a big part of the reason his team is 4 games better than they were at this time last year is the fact that CP3 is playing at an astronomically high level defensively. I'm not going to say he's the second coming of Gary Payton, but watch a few Hornets game when you get the chance. He plays more than just the passing lanes. He's actually leading ALL GUARDS (including Kobe, Wade, Kidd, and Rondo) in DRtg so far this year.

So, he's a top 5 shooting, passing, and defending PG while also being the overall most efficient player in the league? He's got his team about 5 spots higher in the western hierarchy than anyone (including himself) thought they would be before the season. How is he not the MVP so far?

My current list:


Chris Paul
Dirk Nowitzki
Russell Westbrook
Deron Williams
Dwight Howard
Kobe Bryant
Derrick Rose
Manu Ginobili
Kevin Durant
Rajon Rondo


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## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

^ Solid analysis, although I disagree on a few points it's good to see someone giving a well-detailed post. My list is as follows -

1.) Dwight Howard
2.) Chris Paul (could be argued for number one)
3.) Deron Williams
4.) Kobe Bryant
5.) Dirk Nowitski

With Rose and Westbrook right on the cusp of the top five. I expect Durant to join this list soon enough.


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## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

What about DWade and Lebron as Co-Mvps?


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## zagsfan20

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> What about DWade and Lebron as Co-Mvps?


Get their balls out of your mouth. 

They are both having down years for their standards.


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## Wade County

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Statistically, they were always going to have down years going into this season.

While I dont think they're there yet - its not crazy to think by seasons end they both could be in the Top 5 discussion if everything continues to go right.


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## zagsfan20

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Wade County said:


> Statistically, they were always going to have down years going into this season.
> 
> While I dont think they're there yet - its not crazy to think by seasons end they both could be in the Top 5 discussion if everything continues to go right.


Possibly. My vote as of right now goes to Dirk.


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## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



zagsfan20 said:


> They are both having down years for their standards.


Not of late. Their numbers are starting to return to their career norms with more efficiency. If they keep it up, they'll be right in the discussion. Just serving notice that they're creeping back into this discussion.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> What about DWade and Lebron as Co-Mvps?


Neither one of them has a shot.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Wade County said:


> Statistically, they were always going to have down years going into this season.
> 
> While I dont think they're there yet - its not crazy to think by seasons end they both could be in the Top 5 discussion if everything continues to go right.


One of them will absolutely be in the top five, and it's probably LeBron. I doubt Wade gets the nod though, he'll be in the top ten though. They've both been playing some inspired ball.


----------



## kbdullah

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

The thing with Wade/Lebron is that if they are both going to be in the discussion, neither of them will have a shot. They're going to split votes and unless the Heat were to run away with the regular season record, it's hard to see one of them winning over a lone superstar on another team.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Amare Stoudemire
Dwight Howard
Derrick Rose
Manu Ginobili
Dirk Nowitzki


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Right now, up until this point, it's clearly Dirk Nowitzki.


----------



## HB

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Over Amare? Come on man. Dallas is loaded, Amare is clearly the reason why the Knicks are doing well.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

The Knicks don't even have a top 10 record right now. They don't give the MVP to players unless they're on a top 5 team. Dirk has been the best player on any of the top 5 teams.


----------



## HB

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Man Dirk's been good, but so has Butler and the rest of the crew. The Knicks started off slowly, but they've won 13 of their last 14 games. That's telling. A lottery team last year, to being this good is no joke. Its not like Dirk is playing out of his mind to get Dallas wins. Amare has to put up those big games for the Knicks to have a shot. You think Landry Fields and Mozgov even crack Dallas' rotation?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Dirk certainly has a better cast, that's not debatable, but the point stands. They don't give the award to players on teams that aren't on the top tier. If the Knicks can win something like 53 or so games, then Amare is a prime candidate. Otherwise, he is not going to win.


----------



## HB

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I think 50 he gets it. It is New York after all.


----------



## zagsfan20

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Knicks aren't winning 50 games folks. Wait until they start playing some teams that are worth a damn.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I agree, if the Knicks get 50 wins. I can see them giving the award to Amare.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



zagsfan20 said:


> Knicks aren't winning 50 games folks. Wait until they start playing some teams that are worth a damn.


Like the Nuggets?


----------



## kbdullah

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



HB said:


> Man Dirk's been good, but so has Butler and the rest of the crew. The Knicks started off slowly, but they've won 13 of their last 14 games. That's telling. A lottery team last year, to being this good is no joke. Its not like Dirk is playing out of his mind to get Dallas wins. Amare has to put up those big games for the Knicks to have a shot. You think Landry Fields and Mozgov even crack Dallas' rotation?


Eh. Butler's come on of late, but he started off REALLY slow. And I mean Butler's been OK, but my counter argument would be to bring up Felton on the Knicks.

As far as Dirk not playing out of his mind...he's shooting 57% from the field. And I don't mean grabbing offensive rebounds and easy putbacks. He's literally shooting 57% from the field on his way to 25 per. When Caron was stinking it up, Dirk was more around 27ppg, but he's been coming up big when they've needed him to. 

Would Deshawn Stevenson get play on the Knicks?


----------



## HB

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Man I watch guys like Haywood, Chandler, Marion, Terry, Butler, Kidd toying with opponents. Just basically getting what they want against most teams and sometimes I even forget Dirk is on court. It gets too easy for them at times. I mean I didnt know Dirk was shooting 57% but if there's anyone that can do that strictly from jumpers (maybe Bargs) its him. And yeah Deshawn would get play on the Knicks, have you seen their bench?

Come on look at all the guys I just mentioned. They'd start for many teams in the league man. Beaubois is still injured I think and Barea is a very nice back up guard. Dallas is stacked.


----------



## zagsfan20

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Like the Nuggets?


Nuggets have been inconsistent all year. They are 4 game above .500

I'm talking about tough road trips. I'm far from sold on NYK right now.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

its about to get real for new york. they get boston, then miami, OKC, then chicago on christmas, miami then orlando to finish the year.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I can't believe I am saying this, but they can actually win those games. 

scary........


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



O2K said:


> its about to get real for new york. they get boston, then miami, OKC, then chicago on christmas, miami then orlando to finish the year.


They'll compete in all of those games I think. Which is pretty impressive, and kind of what you would expect for their level. If they come out of that with a good record then 50 wins isn't the question--60 is.


----------



## zagsfan20

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> They'll compete in all of those games I think. Which is pretty impressive, and kind of what you would expect for their level. If they come out of that with a good record then 50 wins isn't the question--60 is.


lol. You're crazy. There is no ****ing way that New York wins 60 games.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



zagsfan20 said:


> lol. You're crazy. There is no ****ing way that New York wins 60 games.


They'll win 60 if they are beating up on the Celtics, Heat, Magic, and Lakers.

My point was that they aren't really expected to beat those teams, and if they lose to them in the coming games it doesn't mean they won't get to 50 wins. 50 wins isn't an amazing threshhold. That's what...the 6th seed out East? That's not unreasonable the way they've been playing. It will be hard for Amare to get an MVP with a 50 win team. The MVP will most likely go to the best player on the best team like it always does.


----------



## VCHighFly

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

The MVP will go to whoever the media decides they want to hype up come Feb and Mar just like every year.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> They'll win 60 if they are beating up on the Celtics, Heat, Magic, and Lakers.
> 
> My point was that they aren't really expected to beat those teams, and if they lose to them in the coming games it doesn't mean they won't get to 50 wins. 50 wins isn't an amazing threshhold. That's what...the 6th seed out East? That's not unreasonable the way they've been playing. It will be hard for Amare to get an MVP with a 50 win team. The MVP will most likely go to the best player on the best team like it always does.


You can say that for many teams. The knicks aren't going to win 60 games. I see them around the 45-48 games mark and out of the first round.


----------



## GNG

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> They'll win 60 if they are beating up on the Celtics, Heat, Magic, and Lakers.
> 
> My point was that they aren't really expected to beat those teams, and if they lose to them in the coming games it doesn't mean they won't get to 50 wins. 50 wins isn't an amazing threshhold. That's what...the 6th seed out East? That's not unreasonable the way they've been playing. It will be hard for Amare to get an MVP with a 50 win team. The MVP will most likely go to the best player on the best team like it always does.


What in the world? Fity wins gets you the sixth seed in the East?

The East hasn't had a sixth seed win 50 games since the mid-90s. That isn't going to change this year.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> They'll win 60 if they are beating up on the Celtics, Heat, Magic, and Lakers.
> 
> My point was that they aren't really expected to beat those teams, and if they lose to them in the coming games it doesn't mean they won't get to 50 wins. 50 wins isn't an amazing threshhold. That's what...the 6th seed out East? That's not unreasonable the way they've been playing. It will be hard for Amare to get an MVP with a 50 win team. The MVP will most likely go to the best player on the best team like it always does.


Jordan won MVP on a 50 win team back in 1988, so lets not act like it has never happened. I can really see Amare being the MVP if the Knicks win 50 games, that is huge for them. I mean if they just win 44-45, they will throw a parade in New York.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

That's an insane 7 game stretch for New York. They do have Cleveland wedged in there after one of the Miami games, but even that's a tough game because it's the 2nd night of a back to back and it's on the road so they'll be battling fatigue (which is certainly a tougher opponent than Cleveland). 

The problem for New York is their schedule doesn't get much easier in January. They play the Pacers, Spurs, Suns, Lakers, Blazers and Jazz in their first 6 of January. Then there is a back to back with the Spurs/Thunder and another back to back with Miami/Atlanta. There is a couple easy games in there, but I'd be very surprised if they played better than .500 basketball in January. Something like 7-8 is what I expect if they beat up on the bad teams.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Yeah, the schedule is not pretty. But they are playing with alot of confidence right now. I think they could steal a game against Boston or Miami in MSG.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Cinco de Mayo said:


> What in the world? Fity wins gets you the sixth seed in the East?
> 
> The East hasn't had a sixth seed win 50 games since the mid-90s. That isn't going to change this year.


Look at the east though... the top 6 teams right now are Boston, Miami, Orlando, Chicago, Atlanta, New York. It's pretty possible for 6 teams in the east to end up with 50 wins or over. There's already a 5 game gap between the 6th seed and the 8th seed. Right now the sixth seed is the cut off point for good teams out East. This is the strongest the East has been in quite some time. Usually there's only like 2 or 3 really good teams in the East.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Is Dirk the leading candidate for MVP right now? They're 22-5 and he's averaging 25/8 on 55% shooting.

Maybe Deron Williams is 2nd?


----------



## SheriffKilla

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Id go with:
1. Dirk
2. LeBron
3. Chris Paul
4. Kobe
5. Wade
6. Gasol
7. Ginobili
8. D.Howard
9. Durant
10. Rose


----------



## Xeneise

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Amare not in the top 10 for MVP is laughable. The Knicks won 29 games last year, are now 17-12, Amare is averaging career high points rebounds and blocks, and the Knicks have beaten some quality teams such as Chicago, New Orleans, Denver, and Oklahoma City. 

While they haven't played a lot of tough opponents, they are 4-6 versus teams with winning records and 13-6 versus teams with losing records. If they can keep pace and play .400 ball versus good teams and have a .684 record against losing teams (assuming 41 games against each), they win 44 games this year, 15 more than a year ago, and are almost certainly in the playoffs.

That is assuming they don't improve over the course of this year, which I think they will.

That all being said, my top 5 MVP's right now.

1. Dirk Nowitzki
2. Deron Williams
3. Derrick Rose
4. Amare Stoudemire
5. Lebron James


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Why is Lebron in anyone's top 5 MVP list? He's been a little below average for his usual, and half the time it's DWade leading the line. I don't think you can pick an MVP off the Heat team.

1. Dirk
2. Amare
3. Rose
4. KG
5. Ginobilli

Something like that for my list.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Dirk has to be the MVP so far.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Why is Lebron in anyone's top 5 MVP list? He's been a little below average for his usual, and half the time it's DWade leading the line. I don't think you can pick an MVP off the Heat team.
> 
> 1. Dirk
> 2. Amare
> 3. Rose
> 4. KG
> 5. Ginobilli
> 
> Something like that for my list.



LOL at KG or Ginobli in the top five. Deron Williams and Kobe have far outplayed both to this point. You could throw Dwight in there as well.


----------



## zagsfan20

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Knicks still have a chance at 60?

lol.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



zagsfan20 said:


> Knicks still have a chance at 60?
> 
> lol.


If as I said they had beaten the Heat, Lakers, Boston ect., then yes they would have a chance at 60.

They didn't though, so it looks like a 6 or 7 seed in the East is more reasonable goal for them. Which there's no way Amare is winning the MVP with that result. You have to be top of your conference to get the MVP, or be top two with incredible stats.

My updated MVP power rankings:
1. Dirk
2. Wade
3. Dwight
4. Rose
5. Lebron

Those guys could all finish at the top or top two of their conference, with meaningful contributions to said achievement.


----------



## OneBadLT123

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I think its crazy regarding the Spurs right now. As a team I can not pick one person on there that has a top 5 chance of the MVP, yet they are the NBA's best team without doubt.

I guess my vote is Dirk


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I actually think Durant is going to be a lead candidate by the end of the season, despite starting slow.


----------



## SheriffKilla

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

my 5 for midseason
1. LeBron James
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Chris Paul
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Dwight Howard


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



SheriffKilla said:


> my 5 for midseason
> 1. LeBron James
> 2. Dwyane Wade
> 3. Chris Paul
> 4. Dirk Nowitzki
> 5. Dwight Howard


You have got to be kidding..

You really think that the two most valuable players in the league actually play on the same team? Especially considering the Heat don't even have the best record in the leauge? Chris Paul and the Hornets have been irrelavent for weeks now and Dirk's Mavs have lost 6 of their last seven and he's been hurt/played poorly.

Come on now.


----------



## Wade County

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Statistically speaking, LBJ and Wade are 1 and 2 in PER. So I guess if that's your measuring stick you can go with it.

Realistically though, I don't see it. Not sure who the better candidates are though.


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Argument for Lebron is wallowing around on the banks of the Cuyahoga making an awful stench.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I don't get why Chris Paul is even in the MVP discussion right now. Granted I think he is usually the best PG in the league, but MVP is not just about efficiency or PER. There are a number of candidates with equal or better team records, who carry an even larger load for their respective teams. IMO, Deron Williams & Derrick Rose both deserve it more than CP3. That's not to say I don't consider CP3 a better overall player. The MVP does not always go to the best player anyways. How many did Michael Jordan win?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Who carries a larger role than Paul and has a better record? Rose maybe, but that team has struggled without Noah, so that's not a one man show. Howard, Durant, Deron and Dirk all have similar records and similar roles. They're all in the same boat. Paul is pretty much the beginning and end of the Hornets offense. 

It's going to be interesting to see who wins it because there isn't really a standout candidate, and none of the standout teams have clear cut candidates (Boston, Spurs). And LeBron is too hated by the media to win the award again, or else he'd be easy to pick again this year.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Who carries a larger role than Paul and has a better record? Rose maybe, but that team has struggled without Noah, so that's not a one man show. Howard, Durant, Deron and Dirk all have similar records and similar roles. They're all in the same boat. Paul is pretty much the beginning and end of the Hornets offense.
> .


If I'm not mistaken they are 14-5 without noah. That is far from struggling. All their losses combine for like 23 points or something like that. Sorry. Not really.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Who carries a larger role than Paul and has a better record? Rose maybe, but that team has struggled without Noah, so that's not a one man show. Howard, Durant, Deron and Dirk all have similar records and similar roles. They're all in the same boat. Paul is pretty much the beginning and end of the Hornets offense.


I disagree in the context of this season.

Paul is playing the fewest minutes of his career, and he is scoring at the lowest volume since his rookie season. Granted he is still efficient as all heck but I look at the Bulls & Jazz; both of those teams NEED Rose & Deron to score 20+ every single night, and most nights they need to log 38-40 minutes otherwise their teams could easily lose. That is another way of saying that Paul is not carrying quite the same load as those guys. It just feels like Paul is being mentioned b/c of his reputation more than his actual production. If Jameer Nelson put up those same numbers on a team with the same record, I guarantee he is not mentioned in the MVP talk.

Although I understand alot of this MVP talk comes down to the true definition of MVP. That has always been a problem.



> It's going to be interesting to see who wins it because there isn't really a standout candidate, and none of the standout teams have clear cut candidates (Boston, Spurs). And LeBron is too hated by the media to win the award again, or else he'd be easy to pick again this year.


Agreed indeed.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



O2K said:


> If I'm not mistaken they are 14-5 without noah. That is far from struggling. All their losses combine for like 23 points or something like that. Sorry. Not really.


You're right, they're 15-6 without Noah, so they're not struggling. Although their schedule during that stretch has been horrible. Only 4 of those 21 games have been against teams over .500. And one of those 4 games was against Miami without LeBron, and one was Boston without Garnett. Hard to say how they would have faired against some real competition, but they won most of the games they should have.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Derrick Rose my MVP of the season so far.


----------



## Ballscientist

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

MVP
Emanual Ginobili
Win is everything!!


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



yodurk said:


> It just feels like Paul is being mentioned b/c of his reputation more than his actual production. If Jameer Nelson put up those same numbers on a team with the same record, I guarantee he is not mentioned in the MVP talk.


Paul's scoring is down this year, but he is still more productive than any point guard in the league in every other aspect. He is incredibly efficient in aspects of the game that other great point guards are not. He consistently creates good shots while turning the ball over very little (as opposed to guys who also create, but turn it over a bunch too). Conversely, he also forces a lot of turnovers. 1st in the league at that. Then he is a guy who shoot high percentage from the field and from downtown, and near 90% from the free throw line. New Orleans is a top 3 team in (least) turnovers per game, and that's allowed their defense to set up. And they've been a top 5 defensive team this season. 

You're right that it's not his best season, but it's still better than some others getting mentioned for MVP, so he needs to be mentioned too. I hate that the award disqualifies superior players who haven't played up to their own unreal standard, even if other candidates don't meet that standard either.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Paul's scoring is down this year, but he is still more productive than any point guard in the league in every other aspect. He is incredibly efficient in aspects of the game that other great point guards are not. He consistently creates good shots while turning the ball over very little (as opposed to guys who also create, but turn it over a bunch too). Conversely, he also forces a lot of turnovers. 1st in the league at that. Then he is a guy who shoot high percentage from the field and from downtown, and near 90% from the free throw line. New Orleans is a top 3 team in (least) turnovers per game, and that's allowed their defense to set up. And they've been a top 5 defensive team this season.
> 
> You're right that it's not his best season, but it's still better than some others getting mentioned for MVP, so he needs to be mentioned too. I hate that the award disqualifies superior players who haven't played up to their own unreal standard, even if other candidates don't meet that standard either.



I can see where you're coming from, Paul has been fantastic this year and is literally carrying the Hornets. If I had it my way the leauge would give the award to the best player in the league every year, not the media's pick for best story. In my ideal world MVPs would look something like this -

'10 - LeBron
'09 - LeBron
'08 - Kobe
'07 - Kobe
'06 - Kobe
'05 - Shaq
'04 - Garnett (kills me to admit)
'03 - Duncan
'02 - Duncan
'01 - Shaq
'00 - Shaq 
'99 - Duncan

That is of course using hindsight to know that Duncan won the title and Dirk choked in '07 and I reazlize that the commitee can't see things like that coming but still. Either way Paul isn't getting in the top three of voting for either standard so it's kind of a moot point.

P.S. I don't even remember '05. The Lakers sucked and played some of the ugliest basketball I've ever seen so I didn't watch a lot of ball that year. If someone else has a better case above Shaq give them a shoutout, I'm just going off limited memory.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I would have given it to Duncan in 2005. He was still in his prime, but overlooked because of other stories. Shaquille was in his first year in Miami, and Nash was running his NBA version of the trotters in Phoenix. So San Antonio just played their brand of basketball the whole year and nobody talked about them. They won the title though, and Duncan was still the anchor of that team all year.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Rose and Paul are the best candidates IMO. 1-2 in adjusted +/- with Paul being #1 PER and Rose #15th.

I'm leaning towards Paul as while Rose has broke out this year, Paul has been fantastic for a few years so he's paid his dues. NO also doesn't stand out in terms of talent. Not sure anyone would consider Okafur, West, and Ariza really close to a top tier supporting cast


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

If the Heat continue to win games with Wade and Bosh out, I think Lebron might just be locking up his third MVP trophy.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

It's looking like LeBron again.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Damn. Whatever, he deserves it I guess.


----------



## Tom

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Dwight Howard


----------



## Adol

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

If it doesn't go to Lebron, for whatever reasons, then I'm giving it to Rose.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

CP3 is creeping back into the discussion right now too. He's got the Hornets pretty much level with the Bulls-Heat in record with 1/4th of the Talent.

Widddddee open race right now.

If Dwight Howard wants to put up some more 40/15 nights, and get the Magic above either the Bulls or Heat--he is in it too.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Derrick Rose has his Chicago Bulls with the 4th best record in the freaking NBA! The Bulls are only 1 game behind Miami, and 1 and a half games behind the Celtics in the East. Of course everyone is several games behind the Spurs. The teams that are behind the Bulls include the Lakers, Mavericks, Thunder, and Hawks to name a few.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

It's starting to look more and more like LeBron should get it again. When there is no standout candidate, it's hard to argue with just giving it to the best player in the league who is also on a great team.


----------



## Pioneer10

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Why not Paul: #2 in PER on the 7th ranked Hollinger team. I don't think anyone thinks that the Hornets are brimming with talent either compared to other playoff teams.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Team record will end up deciding this I think. If the Bulls end up tied with the Heat or with a better record than them, then Rose will get it. If the Heat end up winning the East, Lebron will get it. If CP3's Hornets end up with a similar record to the the Bulls or Heat--he'll get it. Similarly Dirk and Dwight Howard I think.

What's weird is that the two best teams the Celtics and Spurs--don't really have a clear MVP candidate between them. Would be kind of cool if Ginobilli won an MVP though.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Team record is the biggest factor in the MVP discussion virtually every season, and I doubt this year will be any different. Historically it comes from one of the top 3 teams in the NBA record wise, with the rare but occasional stretch into the top 5. 

The Hornets as of today are #10 in the NBA in record (#5 in the West). That will probably not get it done. And while Paul is still the definition of efficiency and PER, and probably still the best all around PG in the NBA, that is not particularly high on the list of MVP criteria. Voters tend to look at raw numbers overall it seems like. Not that Paul is a slouch on the raw numbers, but there are plenty of guys with better team records who can match the raw numbers.

Rose is still right up there, but even as a Bulls fan, I am willing to put my homerism aside and say he doesn't quite deserve it. He is a tremendous player and carrying the Bulls every night to a great record despite key injuries all year. He's improved in every facet and is a superstar. Still...I can't put my finger on it, he is still another year or two from being at that highest level play. I guess it's his occasional sloppiness or mental mistakes. I think he'll get there though.

It could easily be Lebron, but having Wade there does hurt the way many perceive MVP. 

Don't overlook Kevin Durant...he's been as good as anybody the last couple months in spite of a sluggish start. Ultimately the Thunder will need to sneak their way up to #2 in the West, IMO. They aren't very far from doing so.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Dwayne Wade had a triple double the last game, and nearly had another triple double today in another Heat win. LeBron James had 12 points. It seems to me that LeBron James is not more valuable to the Heat than Dwyane Wade, and Dwyane Wade is not more valuable to the Heat than LeBron James. There for both of those guys are a wash. Giving either one the MVP over another, is complete nonsense. 

My list of MVP candidates
Dwight Howard
Derrick Rose
Kevin Durant
Manu Ginobili
Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Garnett
Kobe Bryant
Amare Stoudemire


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

LeBron is more valuable than Wade. Although Wade is very valuable. Wade is like a LeBron-lite. He does everything LeBron does, just not quite as well. 

I'm probably biased, but I do think Durant will be there at the end too. I've been saying that the whole year. If the Thunder can get up around 55 wins, he'll be the prime candidate. Same can be said for Dwight. Especially if they can have a memorable game or two near the end in important games for playoff seeding.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Dwayne Wade had a triple double the last game, and nearly had another triple double today in another Heat win. LeBron James had 12 points. It seems to me that LeBron James is not more valuable to the Heat than Dwyane Wade, and Dwyane Wade is not more valuable to the Heat than LeBron James. There for both of those guys are a wash. Giving either one the MVP over another, is complete nonsense.
> 
> My list of MVP candidates
> Dwight Howard
> Derrick Rose
> Kevin Durant
> Manu Ginobili
> Dirk Nowitzki
> Kevin Garnett
> Kobe Bryant
> Amare Stoudemire


So, you got that off one game? Where were you last month or so when Bron was doing it all and putting up monster games and they were winning?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dissonance said:


> So, you got that off one game? Where were you last month or so when Bron was doing it all and putting up monster games and they were winning?


NO not just one game. I'm just explaining that Wade to LeBron are equal. Wade/James were named co-player of the months in December. if you look at the stats it's a complete wash. Here is a link http://www.nba.com/2011/news/01/03/playerofthemonth/index.html Bron had player of the month in January. Right now, Wade is off to a hot start in February, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Wade wins player of the month in February in the East. It's as close to a wash as you will probably ever see of two superstar players on the same team. Statistically, and more importantly the intangibles, eyeball test, and over all impact the statistics don't pick up.


----------



## kbdullah

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Team record will end up deciding this I think. If the Bulls end up tied with the Heat or with a better record than them, then Rose will get it. If the Heat end up winning the East, Lebron will get it. If CP3's Hornets end up with a similar record to the the Bulls or Heat--he'll get it. Similarly Dirk and Dwight Howard I think.
> *
> What's weird is that the two best teams the Celtics and Spurs--don't really have a clear MVP candidate between them. Would be kind of cool if Ginobilli won an MVP though.*





first be said:


> What's weird is that the two best teams the Celtics and Spurs--don't really have a clear MVP candidate between them. Would be kind of cool if Ginobilli won an MVP though.


...


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

???


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

You're quoting a spammer dude...That's why it doesn't make sense. He probably isn't even an English speaking spammer.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

He posted after me I think.


----------



## Ben

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Yeah, he's had his account deleted. He had about 6 posts today just copy and pasting others posts with links in his sig.


----------



## fai714

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

My MVP List:
1. Derrick Rose
2. Amare Stoudemire
3. LeBron James
4. Russell Westbrook
5. Chris Paul


----------



## KC696

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Over the past few days I view the media has shifted it from being Rose's to lose switching to Lebron's to lose. My Top 5 personally though goes Rose, Bron, Durant, Dirk, Amare


----------



## GrandKenyon6

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

It has to be LeBron.


----------



## 29380

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

1. Rose
2. LeBron 
3. Paul
4. Dirk
5. Durant


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Dwight Howard continues to rise in my MVP list. Also Rose is leading the Bulls with out Noah, to a win loss record that puts them only 2 and a half games behind Boston. How good can Rose be ? how good will the Bulls be this season with a healthy Noah suiting up the 5 spot.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

If not LeBron, I think Durant is going to be next in line by the end of the season. Like last year.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Don't discount team records. Someone posted this on another forum recently: historically, the vast majority of MVP winners come from a team with a top 3 record, and occasionally top 5. 

The Magic, Hornets, and Jazz have slipped down the standings a bit. That will hurt the case for Howard, Paul, and Deron, no matter how unjust it may be. Amare isn't really in the discussion anymore either.

Although, I think this is one of those years where MVP might not come from a top 3 team, mainly b/c Boston and San Antonio (two of the top 3) are more about depth than a front-loaded uber star. And then there is the Miami thing which people have mixed feelings about.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Leading MVP candidate Derrick Rose on the hardwood tonight. Be there or be square.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Derrick Rose with 42 points 8 assists 5 rebounds and 1 block as the Bulls topple the San Antonio Spurs. The Bulls now only 2 games behind the Heat/Celtics for the best record in the Eastern Conference.


----------



## VBM

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Rose averaged about 37 a game against the Spurs in two games...I'm a believer


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VBM said:


> Rose averaged about 37 a game against the Spurs in two games...I'm a believer


Nice. 

And tonight Rose upped the ante dropping 42 on the Spurs. What's next a 50 point game ?!!?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Chicago has two television games against Miami in the next 3 weeks. If Rose can show out in those games against King James, he has a legitimate chance. Otherwise I think it's going to end being like last year, LeBron or Durant.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Dallas hits the 40 win mark before the All-Star break. Don't forget about Dirk. 35 points for Dirk tonight on 13/18 shooting.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Bosh picks Rose



> "LeBron has won the last two, and he is my teammate," Chris Bosh said. "But Derrick has had a phenomenal season. Looking at their record and how improved they are as a team and how much improved he is as a player, I think it's close. But I think I would give it to Derrick if I were a vote.
> 
> "He's playing like the best point guard and the best player in the league. He's the most valuable player. If you take him out of the lineup, there's no telling what you get."



Same for Lebron's other teammate Juwan Howard


> "I'm not even being politically correct, normally guys say I'm giving it to LeBron, but honestly I'll give it to [Derrick Rose(notes)]," Howard said on "The Waddle & Silvy Show" on ESPN 1000. "If he stays on this pace that he's on right now, he's got my vote if I was part of the committee."
> 
> Howard doesn't have a vote for the award, which is voted on by a select group of media, but the veteran does have a logical explanation for bypassing James.
> 
> "Derrick Rose has done a phenomenal job this year for his team, and I think if you take him off the Chicago Bulls team, I believe that team will be a below-average ballclub," Howard said. "If you take LeBron off our team, I think we'll still be an above-average ballclub, because we'll still have Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Yeah it's Rose's trophy to lose at this point. It's hard to make a case for Lebron beyond the statistical advantage, and overall team record.

Though if the Heat beat the Bulls next week, it could swing things back for Lebron.


----------



## Shaoxia

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Yeah it's Rose's trophy to lose at this point. It's hard to make a case for Lebron *beyond the statistical advantage, and overall team record*.


:laugh: These two things are pretty much everything that defines an MVP.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Derrick Rose, anymore freaking questions. Stats, wins, and on the rise. Changing of guard so to speak going on in the NBA right now. D Rose is absolutely clutch, thrilling, and essentially unstoppable. As good as it gets. 

My MVP list updated -

1.) Derrick Rose
2.) Dwight Howard
3.) Manu Ginobili
4.) Dirk Nowitzki
5.) Kevin Durant

Coin Flip between LeBron James and Dwyane Wade Both guys top 3 in per, and essentially are averaging the same numbers. They take votes away from one another, so no way you can justify giving the MVP award to either one. As both are as equally valuable to their team as it can get.


----------



## HB

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Dwight is the MVP going by the numbers


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I think that it's either going to be Dwight or Rose.


----------



## Idunkonyou

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Howard all the way. He has won two Player of the Month awards, tops in the league and five Player of the Week awards, again, tops in the league.

He is 9th in points per game, 2nd in rebounds per game, 2nd in blocks per game, 2nd in FG% per game, leads all big men in steals per game, 2nd in PER, 3rd in DDs, is the main reason his team is 3rd in DEF EFF, 4th overall best defensive team in the league.

Not only is Howard the MVP, but he is also the DPOTY for a 3rd straight season.


----------



## Tersk

*Dirk Nowitzki MVP*

Dallas Mavericks with Dirk: 43-9 .826 (Better than the Spurs)
Dallas Mavericks without Dirk: 2-6 .250 (Just better than Minnesota and Sacramento)


----------



## Dre

*Re: Dirk Nowitzki MVP*

I'm going to have to merge this into the existing thread because that's all this will turn into anyway


----------



## Ron

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Beat me to it.


----------



## Tersk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Sorry man, didnt even notice it.


----------



## Dre

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

One thing refreshing about the race to this point is there's no herd of journalists backing any one guy, it doesn't seem like a foregone conclusion...perhaps the first time since Nash/Shaq that it's been up in the air.


----------



## Ron

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Tersk said:


> Sorry man, didnt even notice it.


No problem, I was trying to find it too...didn't realize someone had stickied it. :laugh:


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dre™ said:


> One thing refreshing about the race to this point is there's no herd of journalists backing any one guy, it doesn't seem like a foregone conclusion...perhaps the first time since Nash/Shaq that it's been up in the air.


Yup, this year there is no candidate that is clearly head and shoulders above the rest of the competition.


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I think at this point, it's a 3-man race between Rose, Dirk and Dwight (in that order).


----------



## hroz

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Dirk should win imo.

But Rose is putting up a massive fight. 

Dwight and Durant are the two chasers.


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Forgot about Durant. I'd put him 4th and call it a 4-way race.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

1)Rose
2)Nowitzki
3)Howard
4)Lebron
5)Durant


----------



## Ghost

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

1)Rose
2)Dwight 
3)Dirk
4)Lebron
5)Durant


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I don't want Dirk to win. He's already stolen one and I don't think that we want another Nash on our hands.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Derrick Rose is the pick. He's brought this Bulls team to another level with his emergence as the guy on the team, and his ability to get better every season. Scary thing he's a real young player, that can only continue to sharpen his skills. 

MVP List
1.) Derrick Rose
2.) Dwight Howard
3.) Dirk Nowitzki
4.) Manu Ginobili
5.) Kevin Durant


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> I don't want Dirk to win. He's already stolen one and I don't think that we want another Nash on our hands.


I kind of agree with this. The best candidate should win, but I don't feel like Dirk is a good enough player historically to have two MVP awards to his name. Also why I'm weary about Rose winning. He is a great player, top 10 for sure, but he isn't even the best player at his own position. He'd be among the worst MVP winners historically. They'd be turning a quiet guy who gets overlooked into a guy who is overrated with probably unreasonable expectations. If you're saying he is the MVP, with that elite supporting cast when healthy, you're saying anything short of a title is a letdown. 

I'm sticking with Dwight or Durant as far as new blood goes.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I kind of agree with this. The best candidate should win, but I don't feel like Dirk is a good enough player historically to have two MVP awards to his name. Also why I'm weary about Rose winning. He is a great player, top 10 for sure, but he isn't even the best player at his own position. He'd be among the worst MVP winners historically. They'd be turning a quiet guy who gets overlooked into a guy who is overrated with probably unreasonable expectations. If you're saying he is the MVP, with that elite supporting cast when healthy, you're saying anything short of a title is a letdown.
> 
> I'm sticking with Dwight or Durant as far as new blood goes.


If Dirk had been the best player in the leauge in '07 and this year I wouldn't have a problem with it. But he wasn't, hell, he wasn't even a top three player either year. And to anyone who says otherwise, you really think that Dirk should have as many MVPs as Kobe and Shaq COMBINED. No way.

He's arguably had a better year than Paul so you can't definitely say that he's not the best player at his position. But either way you're trying to call Durant the MVP when he isn't the best player at his position and it's not even a real comparison.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> He's arguably had a better year than Paul so you can't definitely say that he's not the best player at his position. But either way you're trying to call Durant the MVP when he isn't the best player at his position and it's not even a real comparison.


The difference is that I'm only calling Durant (or Howard) the MVP if LeBron has reached Jordan status and is disqualified. He should get it every year if we're giving it to the right guy. That would make Durant the best at his position for eligible players. Either way, Durant and Howard are both top 5 players leading elite teams. Rose is having a great season, but I don't think you can call him a top 5 player in thsi league. Much like Dirk a few years ago. That's why Rose's season reminds me a lot of Dirk's MVP season. People looked at their elite record, and how Dirk was the only all-star on that team, and gave him (too much) credit for bringing that team to elite status.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> The difference is that I'm only calling Durant (or Howard) the MVP if LeBron has reached Jordan status and is disqualified. He should get it every year if we're giving it to the right guy. That would make Durant the best at his position for eligible players. Either way, Durant and Howard are both top 5 players leading elite teams. Rose is having a great season, but I don't think you can call him a top 5 player in thsi league. Much like Dirk a few years ago. That's why Rose's season reminds me a lot of Dirk's MVP season. People looked at their elite record, and how Dirk was the only all-star on that team, and gave him (too much) credit for bringing that team to elite status.


Dude take off the LeBron James homer goggles. He's not the best player in the leauge, he's in the top tier. Derrick Rose out performed James, and his team has swept the Miami Heat. Derrick Rose is the MVP, and with the Bulls passing the Heat for 2nd in the East, and might just catch the Celtics, it's going to be a clear cut decision, Rose MVP.


----------



## Pinball

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Dude take off the LeBron James homer goggles. He's not the best player in the leauge, he's in the top tier. Derrick Rose out performed James, and his team has swept the Miami Heat. Derrick Rose is the MVP, and with the Bulls passing the Heat for 2nd in the East, and might just catch the Celtics, it's going to be a clear cut decision, Rose MVP.


Lol! Come on now. Someone makes a positive remark about Lebron and he's a homer? I remember Patch from way back and he was more of a Carmelo fan than a Lebron fan when they both came into the league together. In fact, he'd always throw Carmelo's name into the discusssion when Lebron was merely a top 5 player and not the best player in the league, which he is now. I agree that Rose is a frontrunner for the MVP but Lebron is clearly the best player in the league in my eyes. Who else belongs in that first tier that you alluded to? Wade? He's excellent but he's not as good as Lebron. Howard? He's still an afterthought on some nights on the offensive end, although that is partly due to the way Orlando plays. Kobe? He's clearly fallen off. Durant? He's just a slightly better version of Anthony at this point in his career. Rose is very talented but I'm sure as **** not putting him in that category based off of one great year.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Dude take off the LeBron James homer goggles. He's not the best player in the leauge, he's in the top tier. Derrick Rose out performed James, and his team has swept the Miami Heat. Derrick Rose is the MVP, and with the Bulls passing the Heat for 2nd in the East, and might just catch the Celtics, it's going to be a clear cut decision, Rose MVP.


You're probably in the 1% of people who doesn't think LeBron is the best player in the league. Now you tell me who is wearing what kind of goggles. Rose did not outperform LeBron today, btw. The Bulls outperformed the Heat though, you're right.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Pinball said:


> Lol! Come on now. Someone makes a positive remark about Lebron and he's a homer? I remember Patch from way back and he was more of a Carmelo fan than a Lebron fan when they both came into the league together. In fact, he'd always throw Carmelo's name into the discusssion when Lebron was merely a top 5 player and not the best player in the league, which he is now. I agree that Rose is a frontrunner for the MVP but Lebron is clearly the best player in the league in my eyes. Who else belongs in that first tier that you alluded to? Wade? He's excellent but he's not as good as Lebron. Howard? He's still an afterthought on some nights on the offensive end, although that is partly due to the way Orlando plays. Kobe? He's clearly fallen off. Durant? He's just a slightly better version of Anthony at this point in his career. Rose is very talented but I'm sure as **** not putting him in that category based off of one great year.


I'm a Durant homer.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> You're probably in the 1% of people who doesn't think LeBron is the best player in the league. Now you tell me who is wearing what kind of goggles. Rose did not outperform LeBron today, btw. The Bulls outperformed the Heat though, you're right.


Lol. LeBron's clearly the best player in the league but pretending like Rose didn't outplay him is ridiculous. C'mon Patch.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Lol. LeBron's clearly the best player in the league but pretending like Rose didn't outplay him is ridiculous. C'mon Patch.


In what way? I know the perception gets altered because the Heat have lost a bunch in a row, and the Bulls are hot, but looking at their individual performances, I can't see how anyone would say Rose outplayed LeBron today. Especially considering that Rose was as bad or worse than LeBron in crunchtime. Curious to see your response.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> You're probably in the 1% of people who doesn't think LeBron is the best player in the league. Now you tell me who is wearing what kind of goggles. Rose did not outperform LeBron today, btw. The Bulls outperformed the Heat though, you're right.


It was Derrick Rose that had all the signature plays out of all the best players on the court today. It was Rose going over, and through James/Wade in transition. It was Rose and the Bulls that beat the Heat. Rose certainly out played James today.

Secondly, Bron is struggling this season, he's not able to close games, he's been terrible at the end of games. James isn't overwhelming defenders nearly as much as he use to. You see guys like Deng etc in the league stopping LBJ defending him one on one. Brons team is struggling against any team worth a damn. It's the facts wether you care to admit or not. 

Like I said, James is a top tier player, but not the clear cut best right now. IMO it's been a down year for LeBron. Of course stat geeks might not see this. However people that have seen the arc of LeBrons career, can see he's no where near the level defensively that he has been in the past, he's not as clutch this season as he has been in the past, and his team is struggling against teams with a 500 record or better. These new staples of negative traits/criticisms were not apart of James teams performances and his individual game prior to this season during his prime years.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I think you're just making things up, but your reputation with LeBron hating is well documented, so I'll let it go. The facts do not support your argument though.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I think you're just making things up, but your reputation with LeBron hating is well documented, so I'll let it go. The facts do not support your argument though.


Dude, you must come out of the rock you've been living under, and so some research. My argument is valid, the facts do support my argument. And it's apparent reputations are hard to live down.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Dude, you must come out of the rock you've been living under, and so some research. My argument is valid, the facts do support my argument. And it's apparent reputations are hard to live down.


You said Rose outplayed LeBron because of signature plays, then named one play, ignoring Rose being less productive, playing a less efficient game and making more mistakes in crunchtime. Sorry if I'm not buying your rationale.

You don't listen to research. You listen to your heart. That's not going to change, and I can accept that.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I kind of agree with this. The best candidate should win, but I don't feel like Dirk is a good enough player historically to have two MVP awards to his name. Also why I'm weary about Rose winning. He is a great player, top 10 for sure, but he isn't even the best player at his own position. He'd be among the worst MVP winners historically. They'd be turning a quiet guy who gets overlooked into a guy who is overrated with probably unreasonable expectations. If you're saying he is the MVP, with that elite supporting cast when healthy, you're saying anything short of a title is a letdown.
> 
> I'm sticking with Dwight or Durant as far as new blood goes.


Even though I'm a Bulls fan, I am not all that excited about Rose winning MVP. Granted, he should be in the discussion and could easily win it b/c there aren't any other clear cut winners. I'd hate for this kid to peak too early, whatever that means. I just think it'd be more beneficial to Rose as a player if he had to work a few more years for the MVP award. 

That said, I don't agree with statements like "He isn't even the best at his position". With the way things have played out with Deron Williams and Chris Paul this year, I can't in good conscience take either one of those guys over Rose. That could change in a month but that's just how things are going. There is simply not a more difficult PG in the league to stop.

On a side note, Kobe Bryant is being seriously over looked for MVP this year. His numbers virtually match Rose despite fewer minutes, and the Lakers record is right up there.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Pinball said:


> Lol! Come on now. Someone makes a positive remark about Lebron and he's a homer? I remember Patch from way back and he was more of a Carmelo fan than a Lebron fan when they both came into the league together. In fact, he'd always throw Carmelo's name into the discusssion when Lebron was merely a top 5 player and not the best player in the league, which he is now. I agree that Rose is a frontrunner for the MVP but Lebron is clearly the best player in the league in my eyes. Who else belongs in that first tier that you alluded to? Wade? He's excellent but he's not as good as Lebron. Howard? He's still an afterthought on some nights on the offensive end, although that is partly due to the way Orlando plays. Kobe? He's clearly fallen off. Durant? He's just a slightly better version of Anthony at this point in his career. Rose is very talented but I'm sure as **** not putting him in that category based off of one great year.


The MVP Award is NOT meant to honor the "best player in the league", but the player who meant the most for his team that particular regular season....
This criteria is, obviously, subjective, but explains how dudes like Nash, Garnett, Iverson and many others (starting with Russe winning it over Wilt) have won teh awars in seasons were they clearly weren't the nest player around...


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> In what way? I know the perception gets altered because the Heat have lost a bunch in a row, and the Bulls are hot, but looking at their individual performances, I can't see how anyone would say Rose outplayed LeBron today. Especially considering that Rose was as bad or worse than LeBron in crunchtime. Curious to see your response.


LeBron was invisible in the second half, missed the game winning shot, and Rose led his team to victory. I can't see how someone who watched this game without their homer glasses on could possibly say that LeBron was the best player on the floor.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> LeBron was invisible in the second half, missed the game winning shot, and Rose led his team to victory. I can't see how someone who watched this game without their homer glasses on could possibly say that LeBron was the best player on the floor.


Well the problem is that winning the game changes the perception too easily. If the officials don't call that foul on Miller, the Heat win the game and the perception is that it was LeBron's two buckets, and two assisted buckets to Chalmers all in the final three minutes that won them the game. And Rose gets blasted for his turnover and horrible brick/airball in the final 3 minutes. Since Miller did foul him, and Deng made his free throws, Rose is the hero and LeBron got outplayed. All a shift in perception because of a play two completely unrelated players made (Miller/Deng). 

I know you guys love to blast stats, but it's hard to trust some of these perceptions because people fall in love with the storyline, and not reality.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Well the problem is that winning the game changes the perception too easily. If the officials don't call that foul on Miller, the Heat win the game and the perception is that it was LeBron's two buckets, and two assisted buckets to Chalmers all in the final three minutes that won them the game. And Rose gets blasted for his turnover and horrible brick/airball in the final 3 minutes. Since Miller did foul him, and Deng made his free throws, Rose is the hero and LeBron got outplayed. All a shift in perception because of a play two completely unrelated players made (Miller/Deng).
> 
> I know you guys love to blast stats, but it's hard to trust some of these perceptions because people fall in love with the storyline, and not reality.


The fact of the matter is that the Bulls did win the game and Rose outplayed LeBron. Rose was fantastic in the second half outside of one turnover and that airball, whereas LeBron was a nonfactor for most of the second half and then somewhat redeemed himself by hitting a wide open jumper and hitting two guys for threes. 

Oh, and earlier when you talked about how if Rose wins the MVP he has to be looked at as championship or bust. That means you feel the same way about LeBron, right? Even moreso since he's apparently super-ceeded the MVP process and has the better supporting cast, right?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> The fact of the matter is that the Bulls did win the game and Rose outplayed LeBron.


Convincing. 



VanillaPrice said:


> Oh, and earlier when you talked about how if Rose wins the MVP he has to be looked at as championship or bust. That means you feel the same way about LeBron, right? Even moreso since he's apparently super-ceeded the MVP process and has the better supporting cast, right?


If it were up to me, individuals wouldn't be held accountable for anything but what they can control. Since it's not up to me, I wonder if Rose wins MVP, and they don't win the title, will he be torn apart as much as LeBron has been the past two years? LeBron has been championship or bust for two years, and this year will be no different. That's absolutely the standard for LeBron for the rest of his prime career. I expect that every year he doesn't win the title, he will be criticized for it. I doubt Rose will have that same expectation if he wins MVP.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I don't even know what you're trying to say. It sounds a lot like you're just bitter that LeBron/the Cavs came up short two years in a row and you were proven wrong by it, and now that looks like it will be the same case this year despite LeBron having a fantastic supporting cast.

The point of playing basketball is to win games, not put up pretty stats. I would take a prime Shane Battier or Bruce Bowen type over Kevin Love even though the stats say that Love is ten times the player.

When it comes down to it LeBron's never been able to get past the hump in the postseason, and now that he has a great supporting cast people like you can't try and direct the blame onto others. He needs to win, or he will be torn apart.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> The point of playing basketball is to win games, not put up pretty stats.


I'm fine with your logic, as long as you're consistent. Most people who trump this "winning is all that matters" mentality will duck and dodge when you ask them if Bill Russell is hands down the best player of all-time. I mean, 11 titles. Nobody comes close to that. Wilt, Shaquille, Jordan and so on had pretty stats but they couldn't get it done as often as Russell.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

To put it simply, if Miami doesn't win, all that proves is that Miami wasn't the best team. Championships are awarded to the best team.


----------



## Dre

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I wonder if Rose wins MVP, and they don't win the title, will he be torn apart as much as LeBron has been the past two years? LeBron has been championship or bust for two years, and this year will be no different. That's absolutely the standard for LeBron for the rest of his prime career. I expect that every year he doesn't win the title, he will be criticized for it. I doubt Rose will have that same expectation if he wins MVP.


Who's fault is that


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I'm fine with your logic, as long as you're consistent. Most people who trump this "winning is all that matters" mentality will duck and dodge when you ask them if Bill Russell is hands down the best player of all-time. I mean, 11 titles. Nobody comes close to that. Wilt, Shaquille, Jordan and so on had pretty stats but they couldn't get it done as often as Russell.


Being consistant and objective are two different things. I'm aware that Robert Horry isn't as good of a player as Shaquille even though he has nearly double the titles. You obviously have to have a healthy mix of both and anyone who leans too far on one side is an idiot. Bill Russell wasn't/isn't the best player of all time because while he was the perfect teammate, he wasn't as talented as the Jordans/Kareems/Magics ect.

On the other hand, statistically Karl Malone is better than Tim Duncan. But having watched both of them I can safely say that Duncan is by far the superior player because of defense and his ability to lead his team to victories in big games. 

LeBron James is in the perfect situation right now. If he doesn't win multiple championships he should and will be held completely accountable because he has been presented with more then enough talent to work with. The greatest players of all time all got the best out of their teammates and led them to the promised land, and now LeBron needs to do that to be considered one of the best players of all time.

Final note - while I don't like LeBron, I do think that he will eventually get "it" and lead Miami to a few titles. When it's all said and done I think that it's relatively safe to say that he will be considered a top ten player of all time and he has a great shot at the top five.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dre™ said:


> Who's fault is that


Media/fans.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> LeBron James is in the perfect situation right now.


So you think Miami is going to win the title this year?


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> So you think Miami is going to win the title this year?


I think that they have as good of a chance as anyone if LeBron can play like the best player in the league and close at an elite level. He has everything that he needs to work with, now he just needs to play like he's a tier above everyone else and they should be fine.

That being said, I don't think that LeBron is going to play well enough, (specifically at the end of games) and I believe that the Heat will be eliminated before the finals with LeBron having no one to blame but himself.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> To put it simply, if Miami doesn't win, all that proves is that Miami wasn't the best team. Championships are awarded to the best team.


I agree with your MVP criteria, but this is untrue sometimes.

Most of the time, it is true, though.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> I think that they have as good of a chance as anyone if LeBron can play like the best player in the league and close at an elite level. He has everything that he needs to work with, now he just needs to play like he's a tier above everyone else and they should be fine.


Most people disagree with you. The Heat are a flawed team that not very many people would pick to win it all. There are better *teams*. The Heat have a ton of talent, but it's not balanced. I doubt anyone outplays the Heat from the wing positions, but their frontcourt is extremely vulnerable. Theoretically, I can't in good faith say that Rose is better than Wade or LeBron, simply because Noah and Boozer abuse Anthony and Bosh. I'm a believer in separating team and individual success completely though.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Most people disagree with you. The Heat are a flawed team that not very many people would pick to win it all. There are better *teams*. The Heat have a ton of talent, but it's not balanced. I doubt anyone outplays the Heat from the wing positions, but their frontcourt is extremely vulnerable. Theoretically, I can't in good faith say that Rose is better than Wade or LeBron, simply because Noah and Boozer abuse Anthony and Bosh. I'm a believer in separating team and individual success completely though.


This post reeks of homer-syndrome. Somebody needs to pull up Patches posts pre-season, and during the first 25 games of the season, when Rose didn't have Boozer, and the past 25 or so games when Rose didn't have Noah in the line up either. Rose dominated the ball, took an effing large amount of shots a game, and willed his team to great record. Since Boozer, and Noah have been back with the Bulls together, it's simply allowed Rose to play a more conventional role, assist more, and close games when needed to. I'm sure you and nobody else were talking this Bulls team up who were hindered by injuries all season to be sitting 2nd in the Eastern Conference.

Also every single team is flawed. The Heat are far from alone in that regard.


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

The Bulls and the Heat both have great records for the same reason. They play in the East and they've gotten fat off the underbelly of the NBA. There's nothing sensational about what the Bulls have done this year unless you think that the Heat have also been sensational. Both teams have won a disproportionate number of games against terrible teams.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Diable said:


> The Bulls and the Heat both have great records for the same reason. They play in the East and they've gotten fat off the underbelly of the NBA. There's nothing sensational about what the Bulls have done this year unless you think that the Heat have also been sensational. Both teams have won a disproportionate number of games against terrible teams.


There's nothing sensational about the regular season period. However it does give you some measuring sticks to review or ignore. Obviously the most glaring difference between the Bulls and Heat record when comparing them beyond the W's and L's column, is that the Bulls have a much better record against the elite teams in the NBA.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Hey folks there is a new sheriff in town, and it's scaring the hell out of Sir Patchwork. Check out the video, Derrick Rose takes on LeBron James, and Dwyane Wade simultaneously on the fast break, and scores!


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> This post reeks of homer-syndrome. Somebody needs to pull up Patches posts pre-season, and during the first 25 games of the season, when Rose didn't have Boozer, and the past 25 or so games when Rose didn't have Noah in the line up either. Rose dominated the ball, took an effing large amount of shots a game, and willed his team to great record. Since Boozer, and Noah have been back with the Bulls together, it's simply allowed Rose to play a more conventional role, assist more, and close games when needed to. I'm sure you and nobody else were talking this Bulls team up who were hindered by injuries all season to be sitting 2nd in the Eastern Conference.


What are you even talking about? Someone _does_ need to pull up these mythical posts you're talking about. I haven't said anything definitive about the Bulls this year, mainly because their team speaks for itself. They're just a good team that acquired a good amount of talent and have good balance. A lot of times you're hard to take serious because you just make things up.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Hey folks there is a new sheriff in town, and it's scaring the hell out of Sir Patchwork. Check out the video, Derrick Rose takes on LeBron James, and Dwyane Wade simultaneously on the fast break, and scores!


Check out this one:


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Check out this one:


Sick dunk for sure, Westbrook really uncorked one. Battier, and Scola should get a pass though, they're like two of the most pronounced below the basket players in the league. Athleticism isn't their forte in other words. 

Great dunk never the less. Although I believe Rose has the better dunk footage on a whole. Westbrook is really good though, I like what I'm seeing out of him this season.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Diable said:


> The Bulls and the Heat both have great records for the same reason. They play in the East and they've gotten fat off the underbelly of the NBA. There's nothing sensational about what the Bulls have done this year unless you think that the Heat have also been sensational. Both teams have won a disproportionate number of games against terrible teams.


The Bulls record against elite teams is among the best in the league, bucko. Ahead of Boston even, in that regard. Sorry.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Pay Ton said:


> The Bulls record against elite teams is among the best in the league, bucko. Ahead of Boston even, in that regard. Sorry.


Yep, the Bulls haven't lost to a contender since December 3rd, yet somehow they pad up their wins against the lesser teams? Okay then.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



P to the Wee said:


> Yep, the Bulls haven't lost to a contender since December 3rd, yet somehow they pad up their wins against the lesser teams? Okay then.


They did have a very easy scedule for a big stretch of their season, but they were also without either Noah or Boozer, so you can't hold it against them too much. Especially since they've dealt with contenders well. Miami on the other hand...


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Rose pretty much has the MVP locked up IMO. Unless the Bulls go into a huge dive to close out the season, he should win it. He's easily the most popular pick from all of the journalists who talk about it.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I feel like Kobe is starting the get slept on. He has similar stats to Rose and his team has a comparable record. Not saying he should be the favorite considering that he has a better supporting cast and hasn't had to overcome the adversity that the Bulls have, but he should at least be in the conversation.

If the Lakers can keep up their play and finish the season on some crazy run I feel like he might have an outside chance.

Homerism aside I still think that Rose and Howard are more deserving at this point though.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

You can't go on stats in this MVP race because there are several players with better numbers than Rose whose teams have similar records.

The reason Rose wins the MVP is because there's no other star on his team, they have a great record, and people like his style of play. It's not a stats based race this year.

The Lakers would need to overtake the Spurs for Kobe to get MVP this year I think. The race is pretty much over because Lebron was really the only one who could have stolen it from Rose if the Heat had at least split their games with the Bulls in the games Lebron played--and then if they had finished on top of the East, since Lebron would then have a better team and better numbers. Even then it would have been tough. But now? It's pretty much over.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> You can't go on stats in this MVP race because there are several players with better numbers than Rose whose teams have similar records.
> 
> The reason Rose wins the MVP is because there's no other star on his team, they have a great record, and people like his style of play. It's not a stats based race this year.
> 
> The Lakers would need to overtake the Spurs for Kobe to get MVP this year I think. The race is pretty much over because Lebron was really the only one who could have stolen it from Rose if the Heat had at least split their games with the Bulls in the games Lebron played--and then if they had finished on top of the East, since Lebron would then have a better team and better numbers. Even then it would have been tough. But now? It's pretty much over.


Forgetting about the last two MVPs when was the last time the best player in the league (statistically speaking) won the MVP? 2004? It's never soley about stats.

That and he's a likeable, humble guy.

If the Lakers pass the Mavs and play awesome to finish the season (and Kobe throws up some memorable games) then I feel like he has a fighting chance. I don't know, maybe it's just the bitter Laker fan in me.

LeBron was never going to win it coming into this year. The media wouldn't have allowed it considering the decision and him teaming up with Wade and RuBosh. The only way he had a chance is if the Heat won 70, and we all know that's not happening.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Kobe will win the MVP award only if the Lakers finish first in the west. He is the prefect excuse for some of those writers who are a bit scared to hand the trophy to Rose.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Forgetting about the last two MVPs when was the last time the best player in the league (statistically speaking) won the MVP? 2004? It's never soley about stats.


Yeah usually it's best player statistically of the top four teams. Which right now would be between Rose and Dirk. With Rose having an edge in any close conversations since he's the best story.

I think Rose winning the MVP is the best story.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> *Most people disagree with you. The Heat are a flawed team that not very many people would pick to win it all. There are better teams. The Heat have a ton of talent, but it's not balanced. *I doubt anyone outplays the Heat from the wing positions, but their frontcourt is extremely vulnerable. Theoretically, I can't in good faith say that Rose is better than Wade or LeBron, simply because Noah and Boozer abuse Anthony and Bosh. I'm a believer in separating team and individual success completely though.


Not trying to derail the thread, but this made me think..

First of all, i admit saying, in the preseason, thath the Heat wouldn't win a chapionship right from the start because they would need time to gel, and there were teams already at championship form (like the Lakers and Celtics).

That being said, i don't quite understand the "Heat's team is flawed/unbalanced" argumentation.

Starting with the obvious part: "on paper", the Heat have 3 Top-15 player in the starting unit, covering the SG, SF and PF positions. No other team in the league has that.
Considering that firepower, and the fact that the Heat (playing Wade and Lebron) don't really need a prototypical PG, what's missing (considering that the Big 3 eat ut most of the cap space and, therefore, the HEat can't afford another star or semi-star)? They have shooters a plenty in Chalmers, House, Miller and Jones; they have serviceable big men in Z and Dampier, and another body to use in Anthony.
How is this roster "flawed"?

I'm thinking this looking at another teams' roster in comparison.

Take the Lakers, for instance: they have 2 of the most inept, offensive-wise, starters in all of the contending teams in Fisher and Artest (and the first can't defend, either). In the bench, besides Odumb (who is having a great year), nothing of much value (to the point where tehy could be starting for another team, anyways). And they don't have a prolific bomber since the days of, i don't know, Glen Rice?

The Spurs (best regular season team)? all their offensive power comes form the wing, for Dubcab, Blair and the others don't provide a sufficient consistent threat.

The Celtics? they have a PG that can't shoot and, with Perkins gone, a question mark on the Center spot. 

Considering all this, i scratch my head whenever i hear abou the Heat's team being "flawed"...


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I actually don't think they are flawed. I think they are just underachieving for a myriad of reasons. Not sure they are playing the appropriate style of play to take advantage of their strengths either.

They have a huge athleticism edge on pretty much everyone--but they don't really utilize it but in spurts. They kind of play like how the Atlanta Hawks played the last few years. When they should be playing a more aggressive sped up style. More like the Denver Nuggets of the past few years.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



PauloCatarino said:


> Starting with the obvious part: "on paper", the Heat have 3 Top-15 player in the starting unit, covering the SG, SF and PF positions. No other team in the league has that.
> Considering that firepower, and the fact that the Heat (playing Wade and Lebron) don't really need a prototypical PG, what's missing (considering that the Big 3 eat ut most of the cap space and, therefore, the HEat can't afford another star or semi-star)? They have shooters a plenty in Chalmers, House, Miller and Jones; they have serviceable big men in Z and Dampier, and another body to use in Anthony.
> How is this roster "flawed"?


What contender has interior play as bad as the Heat? Celtics may not have Perkins anymore, but they have one of the greatest two-way players of all-time at power forward, and he's a long 6'11, plus a big serviceable center in Shaquille. Orlando has Dwight. Chicago has Noah and Boozer. Lakers have Bynum, Gasol and Odom. Spurs have Duncan. Mavericks have Chandler and a lengthy 6'11 Dirk next to him. Even the Thunder have Perkins and Ibaka now. The interior play is the main thing that all of these contenders have a huge advantage over the Heat with. Otherwise, you're right. They'll never get much from their point guard position because LeBron/Wade handle the ball so much, but they do need more from their PF/C positions defensively and on the boards. Losing Haslem didn't help their cause at all, since he was probably their next best player after Bosh. 

Maybe flawed is the wrong word. Unbalanced maybe? Regardless, these aren't huge issues, because their real problem lately has been closing out games. They're doing a lot right if they're able to build these double digit leads every game, even if they lose them.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> What contender has interior play as bad as the Heat? Celtics may not have Perkins anymore, but they have one of the greatest two-way players of all-time at power forward, and he's a long 6'11, plus a big serviceable center in Shaquille. Orlando has Dwight. Chicago has Noah and Boozer. Lakers have Bynum, Gasol and Odom. Spurs have Duncan. Mavericks have Chandler and a lengthy 6'11 Dirk next to him. Even the Thunder have Perkins and Ibaka now. The interior play is the main thing that all of these contenders have a huge advantage over the Heat with. Otherwise, you're right. They'll never get much from their point guard position because LeBron/Wade handle the ball so much, but they do need more from their PF/C positions defensively and on the boards. Losing Haslem didn't help their cause at all, since he was probably their next best player after Bosh.
> 
> Maybe flawed is the wrong word. Unbalanced maybe? Regardless, these aren't huge issues, because their real problem lately has been closing out games. They're doing a lot right if they're able to build these double digit leads every game, even if they lose them.


The Heat's "quick-fix" aproach should have mirrowed the Celtics', IMHO. When they got Allen and KG to play alongside Pierce ita all clicked because everyone got in the same page: sacrifice individual play for the sake ot the team. That's why KG, a former franchise player (even if he wasn't a good one) and MVP award winner (even if he didn't deserve it) got into the game plan and concentrated on defending and rebounding, leaving the team-carrying for Pierce.
I don't see the same demeanour in the Heat's Big 3. Lebron and Wade are playing their usual game, offensive-wise (meaning, iso after iso), but eventhough they have tha capacity to bee good-to-great defenders, i don't see much effort put into it (how many times have i seen Lebron do "the Nique", getting a step on offense wheenever an opposite shot is taken so he can have the opportunity to score on the fast break?).
IMHO, the Heat have all the tools they need. They just need to use them smarter (example: hoe come Lebron, in a team with Wade and many able shhoters) keeps getting the ball in crunch time situations and keeps bricking (heck, even in Cleveland Boobie was getting his fair share of looks!)?
I don't know, man, but it seems to me that the Big 3 have in their minds the (pipe) dream that they can win it all playing solo. That doesn't work. The Celtics and the Lakers (with the trigger-happy Kobe learning to trust Pau more) have proven that.

That being said, i will concede it's a work-in-progress for the HEat.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



PauloCatarino said:


> The Heat's "quick-fix" aproach should have mirrowed the Celtics', IMHO. When they got Allen and KG to play alongside Pierce ita all clicked because everyone got in the same page: sacrifice individual play for the sake ot the team. That's why KG, a former franchise player (even if he wasn't a good one) and MVP award winner (even if he didn't deserve it) got into the game plan and concentrated on defending and rebounding, leaving the team-carrying for Pierce.
> I don't see the same demeanour in the Heat's Big 3. Lebron and Wade are playing their usual game, offensive-wise (meaning, iso after iso), but eventhough they have tha capacity to bee good-to-great defenders, i don't see much effort put into it (how many times have i seen Lebron do "the Nique", getting a step on offense wheenever an opposite shot is taken so he can have the opportunity to score on the fast break?).
> IMHO, the Heat have all the tools they need. They just need to use them smarter (example: hoe come Lebron, in a team with Wade and many able shhoters) keeps getting the ball in crunch time situations and keeps bricking (heck, even in Cleveland Boobie was getting his fair share of looks!)?
> I don't know, man, but it seems to me that the Big 3 have in their minds the (pipe) dream that they can win it all playing solo. That doesn't work. The Celtics and the Lakers (with the trigger-happy Kobe learning to trust Pau more) have proven that.
> 
> That being said, i will concede it's a work-in-progress for the HEat.


The Celtics are a different animal. Ray makes that work, because he moves so well off the ball, which allows Pierce to still work mostly in isolations and pick and rolls, and Garnett has never needed the ball to dominate a game. He is a defensive anchor, and a post option when needed, and a swift passer on offense so the ball doesn't stop. Pau is a legit post threat, plus a gifted passer. Dude is euro-state of mind, which means he knows how to play well within a moving offense, and playing off others comes easy to him. A guy like Bosh has been a superstar his whole life including his NBA career, so this is new to him. 

I don't know how you can think that the big three aren't willing to sacrafice. I think they're all willing. LeBron and Wade actually play pretty well with each other, for the first 44 minutes. It starts to get shaky after that. I also think Bosh's role on offense is fine. He is mostly a pick and pop big man, and a guy you can throw it to in the post to create a shot if LeBron and/or Wade are out. 

Bosh might need to go through the evolution that Pau did, where he gets abused and pushed around in a playoff series, and called a pussy the whole offseason. That might be what it takes for him to show some toughness and grit when it comes to defense and rebounding. 

We'll see. I don't even think it's as bad as people are saying. They're on their way to 55 wins, and it's not like they've just been outplayed by the contenders. They've just lost some of those games by a play or two. Those games could easily turn the other way in the playoffs.


----------



## GNG

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

The thing about a would-be first-time MVP winner like Rose is that it's an automatic ticket to the Hall of Fame. 

Fair or not, the reason I would balk at giving it to Rose is -- no player since the NBA/ABA merger has been named MVP within his first three seasons.

But if the Bulls have a better record than the Lakers or Heat, don't you have to give it to him? It's just been that kind of season.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

It's not Rose's fault he's playing out of his mind, and has his team with the second best record in the East.

Though I won't be mad if Dwight got some recognition.

Honestly, they need to revamp the requirements for the award. It should be for any one of the 16 playoff teams. I hate when writers look at the best records and choose the guy with the best stats on the best team.

There are some real low seeded teams that would be hopeless without their star player. They should be in the discussion too.

For me it's Rose or Howard. Rose has propelled the Bulls to number 2 overall when they were projected around 4th overall. 

Howard? Yeah they're 4th overall and 7th best in the league overall as far as record goes - but they'd be absolutely lost without Dwight Howard.

The Magic would be struggling to make the playoffs without him, and would most likely be a lottery team.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

It isn't Rose fault, but lets be real here there is a ton of politics involved when it comes to this award. I can see some mights not voting for Rose simply because he is too young.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I don't like this "too young" argument. You are basing the MVP on this season and this season alone, what does age have to do with it? He's not too young to start in an all-star game. Would he be too young to win all-star mvp? Would he be too young to make all nba 1st team? I thought Lebron should have won it a few years ago when everyone was saying "he's too young." It makes no sense. If you are old enough to lead your team to one of the best records in the league you are old enough to win any award.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

The leading MVP candidate is playing in North Carolina tonight. 

If you have league pass check out the ball game.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



O2K said:


> I don't like this "too young" argument. You are basing the MVP on this season and this season alone, what does age have to do with it?


It's not so much age as it is the newness factor. Not a lot of people expected him to play this good, therefore he gets rewarded for lower expectations. Established players get overlooked because they're playing like we expected them to. 

If you're basing MVP on this season and this season alone, without factoring previous seasons in any way, like it was the first time you saw any of these guys play, I don't think you'd give it to Rose. I think LeBron or Howard would probably get the nod. They get penalized though because they have expectations based on dominating previous years.

We have this discussion every year though. The MVP is more about story than anything else, and Derrick Rose emerging as a superstar while leading a top tier team is definitely the best (positive) story this season, so I have to concede that he is the best choice. Nobody else really stands out relative to their previous seasons. LeBron is not as good as last year. Same with Dirk, Kobe, Durant, etc.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> It's not so much age as it is the newness factor. Not a lot of people expected him to play this good, therefore he gets rewarded for lower expectations. Established players get overlooked because they're playing like we expected them to.
> 
> If you're basing MVP on this season and this season alone, without factoring previous seasons in any way, like it was the first time you saw any of these guys play, I don't think you'd give it to Rose. I think LeBron or Howard would probably get the nod. They get penalized though because they have expectations based on dominating previous years.
> 
> We have this discussion every year though. The MVP is more about story than anything else, and Derrick Rose emerging as a superstar while leading a top tier team is definitely the best (positive) story this season, so I have to concede that he is the best choice. Nobody else really stands out relative to their previous seasons. LeBron is not as good as last year. Same with Dirk, Kobe, Durant, etc.


Why do you care so much how the MVP is factored ???

It seems all that comes out of your mouth is LeBron James. If the freaking MVP award was given to the consensus best player of the league every year, guy's like Michael Jordan would have droves of MVP's long before LeBron James was even born. So the previous poster makes a great point, it's not about age, it' is about this season, and this season only, but stats alone don't factor to the MVP. You have to take into consideration all scenarios that have played out over the course of the season...

The Bulls have been the most incredible story so far other than the San Antonio Spurs and over looked Blazers. That story of the Bulls, and the emergence of Derrick Rose taking the rank of the best PG in the game is why he's going to be the MVP. The only guy that even come close to Rose IMO is Dwight Howard, because both Howard and Rose have done more for their teams with the least amount of support, in comparison to teams like the Lakers, Celtics, Thunder, Heat, Mavericks, Spurs, etc


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> It's not so much age as it is the newness factor. Not a lot of people expected him to play this good, therefore he gets rewarded for lower expectations. Established players get overlooked because they're playing like we expected them to.
> 
> If you're basing MVP on this season and this season alone, without factoring previous seasons in any way, like it was the first time you saw any of these guys play, I don't think you'd give it to Rose. I think LeBron or Howard would probably get the nod. They get penalized though because they have expectations based on dominating previous years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well this season rose is the only play to ten in points and assist. He's averaging 24 and 8, something only a handful of players have ever done while leading one of the elite teams in the league. Thats THIS season. No player THIS season is doing that. It's not about lower expectations because if it was then he would be in the running for Most Improved Player not MVP. There's a difference. He has not only kept his team afloat while his 20 and 10 PF missed 18 games and his 15 and 10 center missed 30 but kept them in an elite status the whole time. That is MVP. That is THIS season.
Click to expand...


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Why do you care so much how the MVP is factored ???


It's a misleading award, that's why. MVP awards are used in player comparisons and factored in when deciding the hall of fame. I mean, if Rose wins MVP, that will put him past better players who haven't won it in terms of hall of fame status, all because his story was cooler. If it's accepted that the criteria for the MVP is more about story, then there shouldn't be a problem changing to reflect that. The deception is my biggest problem with it.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> It's a misleading award, that's why. MVP awards are used in player comparisons and factored in when deciding the hall of fame. I mean, if Rose wins MVP, that will put him past better players who haven't won it in terms of hall of fame status, all because his story was cooler. If it's accepted that the criteria for the MVP is more about story, then there shouldn't be a problem changing to reflect that. The deception is my biggest problem with it.


No, it's not that his story was cooler, his story was earned through hard work, and he elevated his team to be a legitimate contender to win a championship. What more do you want out of an MVP candidate ??


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



O2K said:


> Well this season rose is the only play to ten in points and assist. He's averaging 24 and 8, something only a handful of players have ever done while leading one of the elite teams in the league. Thats THIS season. No player THIS season is doing that.


You could say this for lots of players. No player is putting up LeBron, Howard or Durants numbers either. As far as 24/8/4 being rare, Westbrook is at 22/8/5 this season without a slight peep about MVP. We're talking about MVP candidates here. They all put up statlines nobody else does.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> No, it's not that his story was cooler, his story was earned through hard work, and he elevated his team to be a legitimate contender to win a championship. What more do you want out of an MVP candidate ??


Maybe for the MVP to go to the best player in the leauge?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Maybe for the MVP to go to the best player in the leauge?


What happens when any given night you have several players who could be deemed the best player in the league. You won't always have a consensus best player. Especially if your rating players year to year and on the merit of their individual production, and team success. To me this season guys like LeBron and Kobe are in the mix to top tier players, but neither guy has set the league on fire, and their teams are not even the best in their respective conferences. 

That's why the MVP award has multiple facets to it.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

So where is Ginobili in the conversation? He has worked to get the Spurs to contender status (through hard work of course), and they're going to end up winning 10-15 more games than last year.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> You could say this for lots of players. No player is putting up LeBron, Howard or Durants numbers either. As far as 24/8/4 being rare, Westbrook is at 22/8/5 this season without a slight peep about MVP. We're talking about MVP candidates here. They all put up statlines nobody else does.


Again, nobody said Rose's stat line is rare, and one more time, the MVP award is not given to the guy who put's up the best individual statistics, as been proven through the years.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> What happens when any given night you have several players who could be deemed the best player in the league. You won't always have a consensus best player. Especially if your rating players year to year and on the merit of their individual production, and team success. To me this season guys like LeBron and Kobe are in the mix to top tier players, but neither guy has set the league on fire, and their teams are not even the best in their respective conferences.
> 
> That's why the MVP award has multiple facets to it.


We don't live in a world where that kind of talent disparency exists so it's a moot point. More often than not you will have a consensus best player. I can go back ten years and name the best player without blinking, it's often not even debatable.

In your defense this season is cloudier than it has been in years past, but we're still living in LeBron's world.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> So where is Ginobili in the conversation? He has worked to get the Spurs to contender status (through hard work of course), and they're going to end up winning 10-15 more games than last year.


23AJ has Ginobli in his top five MVP canidates. Not saying that I agree with him but atleast he's been consistant.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> So where is Ginobili in the conversation? He has worked to get the Spurs to contender status (through hard work of course), and they're going to end up winning 10-15 more games than last year.


I've been talking about Ginobili in this thread, he definitely deserves consideration. The only reason he's less worthy IMO of the MVP award than a guy like Rose is because he has a lot more weapons surrounding him. When Rose was able to take a starting line up of guys like Gibson, Deng, Bogans, and Kurt Thomas to a winning record, Rose established he can elevate a team with out any really good players, when Rose got his horses like Boozer and Noah back in the line up, after they had missed a substantial amount of the season. It showed that a Rose lead team just may win the NBA championship 

Plus the Chicago Bulls have the best record out of all the elite teams against elite teams in the NBA. 

What more do you want out of your MVP candidate ?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> We don't live in a world where that kind of talent disparency exists so it's a moot point. More often than not you will have a consensus best player. I can go back ten years and name the best player without blinking, it's often not even debatable.
> 
> In your defense this season is cloudier than it has been in years past, but we're still living in LeBron's world.


Thats my only point man, this year. I'm not talking about the last 10 years or what the next 10 years may hold. I don't use reputations, no matter how valid they may be. It's Just this season with the top tier pack of players playing out, and you take those top tier players and their teams and the value and impact they've had respectively. I come out of it with Rose number one, Howard number two, Dirk number three, Manu number four, and Durant number five.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

The writing was on the wall. Derrick Rose mix tape when he was just a high school kid playing ball.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I'd like to hear from some non-bulls fans, what is this guys ceiling?


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> I'd like to hear from some non-bulls fans, what is this guys ceiling?


Isiah Thomas?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Can Rose be the MVP ? Let him tell you in his own words..






And Black Mamba fans support D Rose.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> When Rose was able to take a starting line up of guys like Gibson, Deng, Bogans, and Kurt Thomas to a winning record.


Diable eluded to this earlier, but I pulled some numbers for you. First of all, Rose always had either Boozer or Noah. There was never a time where they were both out for an extended period. 2nd of all, the Bulls were lucky with their injuries, because their schedule was very soft when they were hurt. 

They played 9 games in December after Noah went down. 8 of them were against teams below .500. The 1 good team was the Knicks. In January, they played 16 games. 12 of them against teams below .500. The other 4 games were against the Celtics (without Garnett), the Heat (without LeBron), the Magic and the Mavericks. February was a little tougher (4 of 7 above .500 before the AS break), but they also dropped a couple of games in a row in the period. 

So roughly, during the time Noah was out, only 9 of the 32 teams they played were above .500. 2 of those 9 games were against above .500 teams without their superstars (Garnett, LeBron). 

Rose is having a great season, but he is not the only reason their record is better than it should be.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Isn't the Bulls bench also a huge reason for their success? Like when Rose leaves the game they tend to play pretty well.

I think Rose is great, but the Bulls this year are a lot about the greatness of the system their coach has come up with on defense. I mean, why doesn't everyone steal that system now?


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

This is going to sound homer-iffic, but why isn't Dwight Howard getting more respect in the MVP race? I understand that no-one's really putting the Magic in Tier 1 of the contenders (Miami, Boston, Chicago, San Antonio, Los Angeles, Dallas), but the guy's been playing out of his mind. He's still the best anchor on defense in the league, but he's added so much to his offensive game that he's been nearly impossible to stop at times.

Right now, my list is:

1. Dwight Howard
2. Derrick Rose
3. LeBron James
4. Dirk Nowitzki
5. Kobe Bryant


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Isn't the Bulls bench also a huge reason for their success? Like when Rose leaves the game they tend to play pretty well.
> 
> I think Rose is great, but the Bulls this year are a lot about the greatness of the system their coach has come up with on defense. I mean, why doesn't everyone steal that system now?


I agree totally, I think Rose improved a ton, going from an all-star to a potential constant all-star starter. At the same time, you have to give a lot of credit to Thibs and the management who knew how to balance the team.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Seanzie said:


> This is going to sound homer-iffic, but why isn't Dwight Howard getting more respect in the MVP race? I understand that no-one's really putting the Magic in Tier 1 of the contenders (Miami, Boston, Chicago, San Antonio, Los Angeles, Dallas), but the guy's been playing out of his mind. He's still the best anchor on defense in the league, but he's added so much to his offensive game that he's been nearly impossible to stop at times.
> 
> Right now, my list is:
> 
> 1. Dwight Howard
> 2. Derrick Rose
> 3. LeBron James
> 4. Dirk Nowitzki
> 5. Kobe Bryant


Pretty much everyone has him in their top three so I don't really know what you're complaining about.


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Pretty much everyone has him in their top three so I don't really know what you're complaining about.


It's almost as if people have him there by default. No one really makes a strong case for him in the media. It's like Rose and LeBron are lauded, and then it's like, "Oh! And Dwight, too!"

I realize I'm complaining about sentiment, but still.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Seanzie said:


> This is going to sound homer-iffic, but why isn't Dwight Howard getting more respect in the MVP race? I understand that no-one's really putting the Magic in Tier 1 of the contenders (Miami, Boston, Chicago, San Antonio, Los Angeles, Dallas), but the guy's been playing out of his mind. He's still the best anchor on defense in the league, but he's added so much to his offensive game that he's been nearly impossible to stop at times.
> 
> Right now, my list is:
> 
> 1. Dwight Howard
> 2. Derrick Rose
> 3. LeBron James
> 4. Dirk Nowitzki
> 5. Kobe Bryant



If I was one of the few proud Orlando fans, I would be pissed he doesn't have 1-2 MVPS by now. He is a top 5 player in the NBA.


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> If I was one of the few proud Orlando fans, I would be pissed he doesn't have 1-2 MVPS by now. He is a top 5 player in the NBA.


I disagree. LeBron's clearly been the MVP the past two years, and Kobe, Dirk, and Nash were all deserving before that. 

This year's a different story, however.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Seanzie said:


> I disagree. LeBron's clearly been the MVP the past two years, and Kobe, Dirk, and Nash were all deserving before that.
> 
> This year's a different story, however.


maybe i'm over estimating defense, to me, defense is half the game.


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I agree, but that's why he won DPOY the last two years. LeBron's still the best overall player in the game, and led a ****ty team to the best record in the NBA, thus deserving the title Most Valuable Player.

To me, MVP is for the player who makes the biggest difference on all ends of the court for a top team. LeBron was clearly more valuable than Dwight the past two years.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> maybe i'm over estimating defense, to me, defense is half the game.


Everyone knows that defense is half the game and respects it as such. That still doesn't change the fact that this is the first year where you could argue that Dwight has been the MVP.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Diable eluded to this earlier, but I pulled some numbers for you. First of all, Rose always had either Boozer or Noah. There was never a time where they were both out for an extended period. 2nd of all, the Bulls were lucky with their injuries, because their schedule was very soft when they were hurt.
> 
> They played 9 games in December after Noah went down. 8 of them were against teams below .500. The 1 good team was the Knicks. In January, they played 16 games. 12 of them against teams below .500. The other 4 games were against the Celtics (without Garnett), the Heat (without LeBron), the Magic and the Mavericks. February was a little tougher (4 of 7 above .500 before the AS break), but they also dropped a couple of games in a row in the period.
> 
> So roughly, during the time Noah was out, only 9 of the 32 teams they played were above .500. 2 of those 9 games were against above .500 teams without their superstars (Garnett, LeBron).
> 
> Rose is having a great season, but he is not the only reason their record is better than it should be.


So what you're essentially saying is, let's highlight all the bad teams, and skim over the really good teams the Bulls beat while Rose was leading them when Boozer or Noah was out of the line up. 

I tend to look at what players, teams do against the good and bad teams. Both are essential to having a good record, and good habits.

Also, let's be real you have to go to that extent of a break down to try and shovel some of the praise away from Derrick Rose. 

Yet nobody has to break down every single game to point out the glaring holes in every other MVP candidate. Such as LeBron James, The Bulls swept Miami this season. Derrick Rose was the best player in those games. One time when LeBron wasn't playing, but the Bulls and Rose also beat the The Heat with LeBron twice, once on the road even. 

And over all the Bulls have the best record amongst the elite teams against the elite teams. So you can talk about the Bulls having a soft schedule at certain periods of the season, but the fact remains that the Bulls have gone out this year led by Derrick Rose, and have beaten all the elite teams more than any other team in the NBA, and that includes the San Antonio Spurs.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Isn't the Bulls bench also a huge reason for their success? Like when Rose leaves the game they tend to play pretty well.
> 
> I think Rose is great, but the Bulls this year are a lot about the greatness of the system their coach has come up with on defense. I mean, why doesn't everyone steal that system now?


futuristxsen what you're talking about is the NBA Coach of The Year Award.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Seanzie said:


> This is going to sound homer-iffic, but why isn't Dwight Howard getting more respect in the MVP race? I understand that no-one's really putting the Magic in Tier 1 of the contenders (Miami, Boston, Chicago, San Antonio, Los Angeles, Dallas), but the guy's been playing out of his mind. He's still the best anchor on defense in the league, but he's added so much to his offensive game that he's been nearly impossible to stop at times.
> 
> Right now, my list is:
> 
> 1. Dwight Howard
> 2. Derrick Rose
> 3. LeBron James
> 4. Dirk Nowitzki
> 5. Kobe Bryant


So, after all teh recent turmoil, you have Leron James a Top-3 Finalist for the MVP, young grasshopper?
It makes me sick to my stomach... Makes me wanna spit on tour post... Ptui!


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



PauloCatarino said:


> So, after all teh recent turmoil, you have Leron James a Top-3 Finalist for the MVP, young grasshopper?
> It makes me sick to my stomach... Makes me wanna spit on tour post... Ptui!


Yeah, it's a bit of a head scratcher...

If you're going to have James that high, you have to also have Wade that high, because when talking about the MVP award this season LeBrons teammate Wade is as valuable to his team as James is. So they split votes. Prtty simple math. All team success, and disappointment is given equally to Wade and James. As it should be if you watch the games at all. Plus they're both top 3 in PER. Defensively I would actually argue Wade has been better this season than James. It's a unique year for LeBron, and now that he has a top 5 player in the league as a teammate, it changes his value and impact individually. James talents become more of a collective proponent more so than ever. The same thing goes for D Wade. 

For Wade or James to win the MVP, one of those guys would have to have stats off the charts, their team would have to be playing better than all the other elite teams. etc which of course none of that is happening.

So Paulo I completely agree with your sentiments..


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



PauloCatarino said:


> So, after all teh recent turmoil, you have Leron James a Top-3 Finalist for the MVP, young grasshopper?
> It makes me sick to my stomach... Makes me wanna spit on tour post... Ptui!


He's still the best player in the world playing on team that's going to win at least 55 games... so yes. I calls 'em like I sees 'em.


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Defensively I would actually argue Wade has been better this season than James.


LOL


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Seanzie said:


> He's still the best player in the world playing on team that's going to win at least 55 games... so yes. I calls 'em like I sees 'em.


Yeah a team on the skids that have lost 5 straight games, and have the Lakers next, are sure fire to hit that 55 win mark. He's still the best player in the league because his reputation says so. :whatever:


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Yeah a team on the skids that have lost 5 straight games, and have the Lakers next, are sure fire to hit that 55 win mark. He's still the best player in the league because his reputation says so. :whatever:


You can't name a better player.


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> You can't name a better player.


The SportsCenter generation, bro :krazy:


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> You can't name a better player.


I can't, but nobody can this season. Or shouldn't at least, if they do so based on the merit and production of players and their team, and individual success for this season alone. 

This season on any given night any of the top tier players can be the best player in the league. This hasn't been a signature LeBron James MVP season, normally he's closing out teams at the end of games, being a defensive stopper, and elevating his teammates around him. These things he usually gets praised for over and over ad nauseam all season long. This hasn't happened for a reason, because he's not playing at that level this year.

2010-11 is a season of the top tier NBA players. Hence the MVP award being so wide open most of the year.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Seanzie said:


> The SportsCenter generation, bro :krazy:


Can Seanzie come across anymore elitist and smarmy.


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Can Seanzie come across anymore elitist and smarmy.


Can you come across like you don't watch the Heat outside of SportsCenter hype and highlights? LeBron is not the problem in Miami. And you said that Wade has been the better defender. That's absolutely laughable. Wade's an above average defender at this point in his career. LeBron's easily a top 5 perimeter defender in the league.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Seanzie said:


> Can you come across like you don't watch the Heat outside of SportsCenter hype and highlights? LeBron is not the problem in Miami. And you said that Wade has been the better defender. That's absolutely laughable. Wade's an above average defender at this point in his career. LeBron's easily a top 5 perimeter defender in the league.


Yeah I come across like I don't watch the heat outside of sportscenter. Care to back that statement up ?

Also I never said LeBron James is the problem in Miami. So what the hell are you talking about ?

IMO Wade has been the better defender, an opinion I'm entitled to. And it's far from laughable. 

If LeBron James is a top 5 defender on the wing in the NBA. Prove it, because my home town team, who has serviceable guys at the SF position in Batum and Wallace, absolutely lit James up and were efficient as hell. James is having a down year to his standards. It's what I see when watching the Heat. And I have NBA league Pass, and have had it the past 5 years, and counting. So no more assumptions.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> So what you're essentially saying is, let's highlight all the bad teams, and skim over the really good teams the Bulls beat while Rose was leading them when Boozer or Noah was out of the line up.


What I'm saying is simple. Chicago has had an easy schedule, and they've taken advantage. They are a team with good supporting players, two borderline all-star big men (and atleast one has been healthy all year), a great coach/defensive system, and a superstar point guard. 

I know this doesn't fit your narrative that Rose has no help and he is still defeating goliath after goliath, but the truth is, he has a lot more help than your leading on, and the goliaths have been few and far between.


----------



## S.jR.

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> What I'm saying is simple. Chicago has had an easy schedule, and they've taken advantage. They are a team with good supporting players, *two borderline all-star big men (and atleast one has been healthy all year)*, a great coach/defensive system, and a superstar point guard.
> 
> I know this doesn't fit your narrative that Rose has no help and he is still defeating goliath after goliath, but the truth is, he has a lot more help than your leading on, and the goliaths have been few and far between.


Which one is that? Taj Gibson or Omer Asik, those are the only two big men on the Bulls who have cleared atleast 50 games this year.

Or did you mean at least one has been able to play with Rose this season, even if the other was out?


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

When Noah was out Kurt Thomas played extremely well. In fact he outplayed Rose in several games. Every time I watch the Bulls it's their defense and offensive rebounding which seem to win games for them. Rose seems to contribute to those mostly by missing a lot of shots.


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Yeah I come across like I don't watch the heat outside of sportscenter. Care to back that statement up ?
> 
> Also I never said LeBron James is the problem in Miami. So what the hell are you talking about ?
> 
> IMO Wade has been the better defender, an opinion I'm entitled to. And it's far from laughable.
> 
> If LeBron James is a top 5 defender on the wing in the NBA. Prove it, because my home town team, who has serviceable guys at the SF position in Batum and Wallace, absolutely lit James up and were efficient as hell. James is having a down year to his standards. It's what I see when watching the Heat. And I have NBA league Pass, and have had it the past 5 years, and counting. So no more assumptions.


I was going to type a long-winded response, then I remembered that you were one of the biggest LeBron haters on these boards. How can I prove that LeBron is a top 5 defender? Throw out stats? You'd have some response for that. Show you Youtube highlights? Bring up two or three examples in games throughout the year? Neither would encompass the entirety of what he does on defense. Just watch the games and I'm sure your asinine opinion would change. The dude has the greatest combination of size, strength, quickness, and defensive instincts in the league.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Bulls have had a tougher schedule than the Hawks, Miami, Boston, Lakers, Magic, and the Knicks. So if we are talking about an easy schedule there can't be any MVP from any of those teams. Bulls are also 21-12 against +.500 teams. The only teams that can say they are better are Boston and San Antonio. Rose also leads the league in percentage of teams offense. And if I remember correctly there was a stat that was showing how good Rose was defensively. I wouldn't mind if they gave the MVP to Dirk or Howard, but to discount Rose is ridiculous. Kurt Thomas for the season has averaged 4.7 pts and 6 rebounds per game. Yea he's really outplayed Rose in a lot of games. Kurt has played great in replacing Noah, but I think people are trying too hard to make their case against Rose, and it's showing.


----------



## GNG

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



O2K said:


> I don't like this "too young" argument. You are basing the MVP on this season and this season alone, what does age have to do with it? He's not too young to start in an all-star game. Would he be too young to win all-star mvp? Would he be too young to make all nba 1st team? I thought Lebron should have won it a few years ago when everyone was saying "he's too young." It makes no sense. If you are old enough to lead your team to one of the best records in the league you are old enough to win any award.


Not saying I necessarily agree with it, but this is the deal. Every player who's won MVP has made the HOF.

Naturally, whoever wins it this year will probably make the HOF.

Is Derrick Rose a Hall of Famer? I don't know because he's like 22 years old. It's a weird situation.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Cinco de Mayo said:


> Not saying I necessarily agree with it, but this is the deal. Every player who's won MVP has made the HOF.
> 
> Naturally, whoever wins it this year will probably make the HOF.
> 
> Is Derrick Rose a Hall of Famer? I don't know because he's like 22 years old. It's a weird situation.


So the question is- should Rose go to the HOF? I understand the dynamics of it, and like you said it's a wierd situation. I would say that players who win the MVP don't make the HOF because they won the MVP but because they are good enough to make it to the HOF. I see that people see them as being hand in hand but in reality they are two seperate things. Its not a vote for "which active player should be in the HOF" award, it's a who is the Most Valuable Player award. I understand what you are saying but I think at this point people are making it too complicated.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



O2K said:


> So the question is- should Rose go to the HOF? I understand the dynamics of it, and like you said it's a wierd situation. I would say that players who win the MVP don't make the HOF because they won the MVP but because they are good enough to make it to the HOF. I see that people see them as being hand in hand but in reality they are two seperate things. Its not a vote for "which active player should be in the HOF" award, it's a who is the Most Valuable Player award. I understand what you are saying but I think at this point people are making it too complicated.


There are already questionable players that have made the Hall Of Fame, who never won an MVP award, who never had a season like the one Rose is having this year. So I don't really see this Hall Of Fame argument holding much water in the bigger picture of Rose winning the MVP this season.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Seanzie said:


> He's still the best player in the world playing on team that's going to win at least 55 games... so yes.


*As of right now:*
- There are 5 better teams in the league. 55 games being the 6th best team in the league is not such a great accomplishment, is it?
- What's the HEat's record against +.500, again?
- None of the other MVP contenders are playing alongsiode a Top-5 player in the league and a Top-15 other. None.
- IT's undoubtfull that Lebron is having a down year (for his standerds, off course);
- Etc, etc..

Still, because he is "the best player in the world", he should automatially (sp?) be a Top-3 in the MVP hunt, in front of guys like Dirk and Durant?



> I calls 'em like I sees 'em.


Take off those darned glasses and look again, please


----------



## HB

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

The arguments against Rose are quite silly though.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Cinco de Mayo said:


> Not saying I necessarily agree with it, but this is the deal. Every player who's won MVP has made the HOF.
> 
> Naturally, whoever wins it this year will probably make the HOF.
> 
> Is Derrick Rose a Hall of Famer? I don't know because he's like 22 years old. It's a weird situation.


Was Steve Nash HOF worthy when he won the award? Was Keving Garnett? Was Dirk?


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



PauloCatarino said:


> Was Steve Nash HOF worthy when he won the award? Was Keving Garnett? Was Dirk?


Garnett and Dirk won the award in their 9th season, it was safe to say they were going to the hall prior to them winning the award. Nash on the other hand, you are right about.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> *Garnett and Dirk won the award in their 9th season, it was safe to say they were going to the hall prior to them winning the award. *Nash on the other hand, you are right about.


Arguable. But it doesn't matter, you get the point, i'm sure.

Also, regarding age/MVP winning: 
Petitt, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, McAdoo, Noses, won MVP at age 23;
Unseld at age 22;

Now, i ain't saying that Rose WILL win it. there's a lot of politics involved in the selection (see Jordan in 88, Magic in 90). But if one gets back to the notion of Most Valuable Player (not the best player in the league, but the player most important for his respective team), then (IMHO) *this year *guys like Rose, D-Ho, Durant, Dirk and Kobe should be ahead of Lebron James.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



S.jR. said:


> Or did you mean at least one has been able to play with Rose this season, even if the other was out?


This. Boozer was back just before Noah went down. So Rose had atleast one of them all year, and has both now.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



PauloCatarino said:


> Now, i ain't saying that Rose WILL win it. there's a lot of politics involved in the selection (see Jordan in 88, Magic in 90). But if one gets back to the notion of Most Valuable Player (not the best player in the league, but the player most important for his respective team), then (IMHO) *this year *guys like Rose, D-Ho, Durant, Dirk and Kobe should be ahead of Lebron James.


I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I don't think you can put Kobe in that group. That team would still win a bunch of games without him. I think Howard or Dirk would have to win the award based on the "take them off the team and see how they do" rationale.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I don't necessarily disagree with you, *but I don't think you can put Kobe in that group. That team would still win a bunch of games without him.* I think Howard or Dirk would have to win the award based on the "take them off the team and see how they do" rationale.


I'm not gonna stand here and defend Kobe Bryant should be a favourite for MVP He shouldn't.
But in no way, shape or form i see the Lakers keeping up the pace ("win a bunch of games") without him. Replace Kobe with a guy, say, like Monta Ellis (who is a fantastic player). Do you think the team would be as cohesive (sp?) Do you think Ellis would keep guys like Ronny, Pau and Drew in check? I fully aknowledge that Kobe is not the player he once was. But when talking MVP (and in this discussion "intangibles" have a little weight) i don't know if Kobe Bean isn't (or shouldn't be) right THERE...


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

D Wade is every bit as valuable to the Heat as LeBron James. Anyone that continues to put James in their top 5 candidates and don't have D Wade is biased, and going by what LeBron meant to the Cavs, not the Heat.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

The Bulls about to pass the Celtics for the second best record in the NBA, and and the top record in the East.

Say hello to your MVP of the 2010-11 NBA season.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

IMO, a factor that is working against Lebron and Howard is the amount of instability that each of their respective teams have faced throughout the season.

Despite Lebron's stats (which are better than Rose), his team has gone through 2 distinct rough patches; one at the start of the season, and again more recently. Sure I'd say expectations played a role in that, but the perception is that his team is sort of in flux. The Magic have had a few rough patches of their own.

You can't say that about the Bulls. They haven't lost more than 2 in a row all season if I'm not mistaken. Rose has been their best player, by far. And this coming from a guy who despite being a Bulls fan has not been riding the Rose as MVP bandwagon...I'd like the kid to avoid the shooting slumps more than he is. Thing is, I can't really argue for anyone else too strongly so not sure what to decide.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Yeah it's looking more and more like the Bulls are going to win the East, which is pretty incredible. If that happens Rose should win the MVP in a landslide.


----------



## ChiBron

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Since this has been such a weak race, I guess Rose wins by default. But I just don't see MVP when I watch Bulls games. He has like 1 truly good game to his name post-AS break and it doesn't impact the Bulls in the least, because defense and rebounding is WHY they win games. Rose will be the worst player to win MVP in league history.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

In league history? Give me a break.


----------



## ChiBron

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> In league history? Give me a break.


Who was worse?


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



ChiBron said:


> Who was worse?


Off the top of my head Wes Unseld?


----------



## ChiBron

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Off the top of my head Wes Unseld?


LOL, you're probably right. His numbers sure were ordinary that season. OK, Rose will be the 2nd worst in NBA history. Still pretty damn bad.


----------



## JT

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> D Wade is every bit as valuable to the Heat as LeBron James. Anyone that continues to put James in their top 5 candidates and don't have D Wade is biased, and going by what LeBron meant to the Cavs, not the Heat.


not even close. the Heat w/ no LeBron & average SF=35-40 wins at season's end.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Off the top of my head Wes Unseld?


You just went back 40+ years, which in a way proves the point.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



ChiBron said:


> Since this has been such a weak race, I guess Rose wins by default. But I just don't see MVP when I watch Bulls games. He has like 1 truly good game to his name post-AS break and it doesn't impact the Bulls in the least, because defense and rebounding is WHY they win games. Rose will be the worst player to win MVP in league history.


Strange how you can decided how good Roses' MVP year looks so early in his career. This just might be the beginning of many MVP's. Rose has already proven to get better every year. Also statistics and being the best player is never the entire criteria in achieving MVP status. I mean, heck Steve Nash is one of my favorite players ever, but when he won his first MVP I believe his raw stat averages were 15 points and 10 assists a game, granted he was incredibly efficient. D Rose is putting up 24 PPG 8 APG and much like Nash has galvanized a team that is about to become the best in their conference, which nobody predicted. That all plays a lot into what people consider valuable. Rose's MVP will probably continue to look better, especially if the Bulls end up with the best record in the East, and a deep run in the playoffs.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



JT said:


> not even close. the Heat w/ no LeBron & average SF=35-40 wins at season's end.


The way his team is presently constructed, I don't know about that dude. What kind of evidence do you have to support such a claim anyways ? Secondly, did you watch the game tonight ? D Wade again was the most dominate player on the court defensively and offensively. Like I said before, LeBron and Wade are equal in impact on this Heat team.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Howard again carrying his team on his back on both ends: 26pts, 15rbds and 5 blks.
I know the Magic arent' exactly setting the world on fire lately, but the "offensive-challenged" Howard seems to be upping his game as of lately...


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



ChiBron said:


> Who was worse?


I would argue that this season by Rose (assuming the Bulls win the East) will fall right alongside Bill Walton's 1978 season and Allen Iverson's 2001 season. All three players provided exactly what their role-player-filled teams needed to succeed. In Walton's case that was rebounding and ball movement. In Iverson's and Rose's cases that's speed and consistent scoring. This Rose regular season has been no worse than the season those two players had for their respective over-achieving teams. The fact that Rose is doing it in a league that is more stacked overall than the NBA was in either 1978 or 2001 is more a testament to what he's doing than anything else.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Dwight Howard is making a case for himself over the past few games. Tonight's game against the Lakers should be a good test.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Dwight Howard is making a case for himself over the past few games. Tonight's game against the Lakers should be a good test.


Orlando can't seem to put together a good run, which is necessary if Dwight is to win. Otherwise, nobody is really paying enough attention to him.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Orlando can't seem to put together a good run, which is necessary if Dwight is to win. Otherwise, nobody is really paying enough attention to him.


I mean at a certain point it's not his fault that the Orlando managment has surrounded him with garbage. He hasn't played with anyone who can be considered to be an above average playmaker all year (scratch that, his entire career) and still puts up 20+ points on great percentages with the best defense in the league.

The more and more I think about it the less I want Rose to win. I just have a problem with the award going to someone who isn't a top five player, regardless of how much I like him/how much he's improved this year. His time will come.

And on the other hand I can't really justify giving it to either of the Miami guys considering the up and down season they've had along with LeBron not playing quite up to his normal level. Kobe hasn't really stood out enough for me to give it to him as much as I'd like to.

I don't know. This has been a weak race. My vote would probably go to Dwight, though. That Orlando team would be absolutely pathetic without him.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I think Dwight is deserving, I just don't think he garners enough attention from the story chasers that vote for the award.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

You're probably right.


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Dwight Howard and LeBron James are both absolutely better players and more valuable than Derrick Rose. That's not how the award is handed out though, there's plenty of history to prove that. Patchwork put it perfectly, this award is voted on by story chasers. Historically, a good storyline and team records means almost everything. The fact that the Cavs won more games each of the last couple years than the Heat will win this year all but eliminates LeBron. The Magic have won 59 games the last two years too, the Magic won't win that many and they won't be one of the top 3 or 4 teams in the league. Dwight won't win despite having easily his best season and almost single-handedly making the Magic a (pseudo) contender. 

With that said, Derrick Rose will "deservingly" win the award this year based on the criteria that's been set by the voters over the history of this award. They've been using this criteria for decades, why stop now? I'm happy for him. If there's anyone who won't let it get to his head it's Derrick Rose.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I obviously want Derrick Rose to win it, but I wouldn't mind if Dwight Howard won it at all.

Lebron deserves it as well, but **** him.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I wouldn't have a problem with Dwight Howard winning it. He's easily as valuable to his team as any player. With out even mentioning his great stats, defensive impact, etc etc


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Let's say Derrick Rose wins the MVP and the Bulls get eliminated in convincing fashion in the second round. 5 years from now, are we looking back and saying LeBron, Wade or Dwight should have won it?


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Seanzie said:


> Let's say Derrick Rose wins the MVP and the Bulls get eliminated in convincing fashion in the second round. 5 years from now, are we looking back and saying LeBron, Wade or Dwight should have won it?


Probably.

That's usually how it works.

But then again, Iverson won it and took his team to the Finals, and people were still saying he shouldn't have won it. 

So maybe they'll say the same about Rose regardless.


----------



## made.chi

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

HANDS DOWN.....D Rose will be MVP of the league!! Check out the official D.Rose MVP song!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx5f9f02IRI


----------



## Idunkonyou

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I still say Howard should win it. His team has went through two big issues this year which is probably why their record isn't where it should be. They had a trade that switched half their team mid season, not to mention a flu bug that kept half their team out for 5 or 6 games right before that trade. If not for that, the Magic are probably right there in the thick of things for the top seed in the east.

Not to mention Howard's offensive game has finally come around. Top 10 in scoring this year. He will win DPOTY for sure, but he also deserves MVP.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

You don't deserve the MVP if your team isn't one of the top two teams in it's own conference. At least that's the rubrik for the most part.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> You don't deserve the MVP if your team isn't one of the top two teams in it's own conference. At least that's the rubrik for the most part.


If Miami catches Chicago, who deserves it among Miami, Boston, LA and the Spurs?


----------



## Idunkonyou

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> You don't deserve the MVP if your team isn't one of the top two teams in it's own conference. At least that's the rubrik for the most part.


That really should have nothing to do with it, unless your stats are out of this world better than every one else in the league, which no one on the top 4 teams in the league have.

Of course Howard's season has been ridiculous this year. 1st in defensive win shares, defensive rating, steals among all big men (PF/C), 2nd in rebounds, FG%, blocks, PER, double doubles and is 10th in scoring. He has DPOTY wrapped up again. If his team wins 53 to 55 wins, not sure how you wouldn't give MVP to him.

There is a reason it is a team sport. MVP = Most Valuable to their team pretty much. Not best in the league or who has the best team. If that was the case then give it to Duncan, Parker, Rondo, KG, etc.

Of course I believe you need to be on a good team. 50+ wins and top 4 seed at least.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Idunkonyou said:


> That really should have nothing to do with it, unless your stats are out of this world better than every one else in the league, which no one on the top 4 teams in the league have.
> 
> Of course Howard's season has been ridiculous this year. 1st in defensive win shares, defensive rating, steals among all big men (PF/C), 2nd in rebounds, FG%, blocks, PER, double doubles and is 10th in scoring. He has DPOTY wrapped up again. If his team wins 53 to 55 wins, not sure how you wouldn't give MVP to him.
> 
> There is a reason it is a team sport. MVP = Most Valuable to their team pretty much. Not best in the league or who has the best team. If that was the case then give it to Duncan, Parker, Rondo, KG, etc.
> 
> Of course I believe you need to be on a good team. 50+ wins and top 4 seed at least.


When was the last time an MVP came from the fourth best team in a conference?

And Patchwork: So long as the Bulls stay in the top two in the east Rose will be the MVP. Heck at this point, since the records are so close he might still get it at the 3 seed. I think the Bulls are pretty much a lock to win the east at this point though, which makes this conversation moot.


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> When was the last time an MVP came from the fourth best team in a conference?


I have a problem with that argument, and it's the one that I think most people use against Dwight. The fact of the matter is that the East is stacked at the top, and Orlando is still on pace to win 50+ games. Without Dwight, they're the Charlotte Bobcats. He's the most *valuable* player to his team in the league, and he's on a very good team. I don't buy the whole having to be on a top 2 seed thing, although history kind of points in that direction.

Derrick Rose is certainly deserving, I can't really make a strong argument against him. I do think he has it wrapped up in part because of the season he's having, the surprise factor of Chicago being so good, and the hype train that's started rolling in his favor.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Here is my argument against Rose being MVP. I feel like I am the only one who feels like it's all smoke and mirrors.

22.2ppg, 8.4apg, 3.2rpg, 1.5spg with 43% shooting and TS% of 53%. That's Marbury's stat line for his first complete season with NJN. The Nets were 10th offensively in the league, the Bulls this year are 15th. The only real difference is in the team defense. The Nets gave up 46% as opposed to the Bulls' 42% OFG%.

Why am I bringing this up? Rose = Marbury 

The only difference is coaching. Here are the team defensive rankings of the past 9 teams Thibodeau has assisted and head coached:
1st, 5th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th ,4th, 5th, 2nd

That's why the Bulls are winning. They play great defense and that has nothing to do with Rose (well it does a little bit) but does have everything to do with coaching.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Hyperion said:


> Here is my argument against Rose being MVP. I feel like I am the only one who feels like it's all smoke and mirrors.
> 
> 22.2ppg, 8.4apg, 3.2rpg, 1.5spg with 43% shooting and TS% of 53%. That's Marbury's stat line for his first complete season with NJN. The Nets were 10th offensively in the league, the Bulls this year are 15th. The only real difference is in the team defense. The Nets gave up 46% as opposed to the Bulls' 42% OFG%.
> 
> Why am I bringing this up? Rose = Marbury
> 
> The only difference is coaching. Here are the team defensive rankings of the past 9 teams Thibodeau has assisted and head coached:
> 1st, 5th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th ,4th, 5th, 2nd
> 
> That's why the Bulls are winning. *They play great defense and that has nothing to do with Rose *(well it does a little bit) but does have everything to do with coaching.


Interesting that you are sporting a Steve Nash avatar... You know, the dude who won 2 MVPs on offense alone...


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



PauloCatarino said:


> Interesting that you are sporting a Steve Nash avatar... You know, the dude who won 2 MVPs on offense alone...


You mean the guy who captained the No. 1, No. 2, No. 3, No. 4 and No. 5 best offenses of all time and accounts for the entire offense? Yeah, he's pretty good.

Defense is a team game. One man can't defend 5 guys.


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Hyperion said:


> Here is my argument against Rose being MVP. I feel like I am the only one who feels like it's all smoke and mirrors.
> 
> 22.2ppg, 8.4apg, 3.2rpg, 1.5spg with 43% shooting and TS% of 53%. That's Marbury's stat line for his first complete season with NJN. The Nets were 10th offensively in the league, the Bulls this year are 15th. The only real difference is in the team defense. The Nets gave up 46% as opposed to the Bulls' 42% OFG%.
> 
> Why am I bringing this up? Rose = Marbury
> 
> The only difference is coaching. Here are the team defensive rankings of the past 9 teams Thibodeau has assisted and head coached:
> 1st, 5th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th ,4th, 5th, 2nd
> 
> That's why the Bulls are winning. They play great defense and that has nothing to do with Rose (well it does a little bit) but does have everything to do with coaching.


I'm not fishing for reasons to put knock Rose down a peg, but that's a very good, very informative post.

I do think Marbury was always apt to put up more empty statlines (big numbers in games against inferior competition) in a weaker Eastern Conference though. To say Rose = Marbury doesn't really compute.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Hyperion said:


> You mean the guy who captained the No. 1, No. 2, No. 3, No. 4 and No. 5 best offenses of all time and accounts for the entire offense? Yeah, he's pretty good.
> 
> *Defense is a team game. One man can't defend 5 guys.*


Yes. And Steve Nash couldn't defend a blind man if his life depended on it 

Heck, i love Stevie. But you can't prop a notorious non-defender and blame Derrick Rose for benefitting for his team defense (that he has little to no influence on it).

Keep in mind that we«re talking about the MVP award. Iverson won one being an unefficient chucker surrounded by great team defense; Stevie won two playing in a team that played little to no defense... So what gives regarding Rose and the MVP award?

IMHO, it's between Rose and D-Ho.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I haven't even heard Dwight Howard on the national radar as an MVP candidate. I would think Dirk has a better shot still than Dwight.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Hyperion said:


> You mean the guy who captained the No. 1, No. 2, No. 3, No. 4 and No. 5 best offenses of all time and accounts for the entire offense? Yeah, he's pretty good.
> 
> Defense is a team game. One man can't defend 5 guys.


I would venture to say that a prime Steve Nash is a top ten offensive player of all time. I love how he plays the game and he's been a treat to watch, but you can't dispute that he sucks at defense. And because he's such a horrid defender I don't know how you're going to validate those two MVPs. You can't be the best player in the league when you suck at half the game, regardless of how good you are offensively.

Still a great, great, player though. I actually want to see Phoenix in the playoffs because Nash is such a treat to watch and he always brings it for the postseason.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



PauloCatarino said:


> Yes. And Steve Nash couldn't defend a blind man if his life depended on it
> 
> Heck, i love Stevie. But you can't prop a notorious non-defender and blame Derrick Rose for benefitting for his team defense (that he has little to no influence on it).
> 
> Keep in mind that we«re talking about the MVP award. Iverson won one being an unefficient chucker surrounded by great team defense; Stevie won two playing in a team that played little to no defense... So what gives regarding Rose and the MVP award?
> 
> IMHO, it's between Rose and D-Ho.


........ so your argument is "But Steve Nash has TWO MVPS and Iverson won one!!!!"? Not buying it. 

Also, you do realize that the No-Defense Suns were 15th and 17th in the league in defensive efficiency those year right? That's not a terrible place to be. Also, it's not that the Suns were such terrible defenders, they were just so efficient that they would score within a few seconds of getting possession. If you were to look up Nash's ORTG vs DRTG for those two MVP seasons, his offense went from 123 to 121 without Amare (26ppg player) and his DRTG went up from 111 to 109. Yes, that is a bad defense, if you ignore the fact that they would score 123 and 121 respectively. 

Rose's Drtg is worse than the team's indicating that they are a better defensive squad without him.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

At this point I'm giving it to Dwight. He's the best defensive player in the league by far, and he has turned himself into someone that you can work your offense through and still play at a high level. His stats are great - 23/14 with 2.5 blocks, and his team is doing well enough to justify the nod.

Even though I love the guy, I don't want Rose to win it. His team is elite because of a great coach a terrific defense/rebounding, and while he's still instrumental in what they do, he hasn't turned them into an elite offensive team and his numbers are extremely pedestrian in regards to other MVP winners. He puts up a solid volume of PPG but his efficiency is pretty average at 44/33/84 and that appears to be plummeting (39% over last five, 4 assits per game) and nothing else really jumps out at you. He's an awesome player, should be on the first team and will probably win an MVP in the future, but I don't feel right about giving it to him this year. The award needs to go to a top five player at least.

Side note: I feel like Kobe is starting to pick up momentum in the race. His team is on a huge tear and there really isn't anyone that has completely seperated themsevles from the rest of the pack, so I could see a lifetime achievement award/sorry for giving your '06 MVP away type situation. I'm not saying he deserves it, because in my opinion he doesn't, but I could see it happening. And does anyone honestly think that Rose is better than Kobe anyways?


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Wow.

Comparing Rose to Marbury?

Stat wise, cool.

But they have completely different mentalities as players.

So, fail on that end IMO.


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Rose isn't a egomaniacal ass, but his game is extremely reminiscent of Marbury and Iverson. It's rather ludicrous to behave as though he's having a great season in any sense other than the Bulls are winning. He's shooting a lot and he's missing more than he's hitting by a significant margin. His usage rate is off the scale and one of the major reasons why the bulls are so inefficient offensively is his own inefficiency. 

Rose is a very good basketball player, but he's hardly even close to being a great point guard. I personally give point guards a lot of credit and blame for the entire offense of their team, and that's not a ringing endorsement of Rose. No one can tell me he doesn't have as good a supporting cast as almost anyone in the league either.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Rose is a lot like Marbury, but Marbury was pretty highly regarded for a while. If that Suns Marbury had been on this Bulls team, I don't think anyone can really make a convincing argument that they'd be worse. If Rose plays like Marbury did in his prime for his whole career, and doesn't ever go crazy, Rose will have done well for himself. 

An MVP award is going to create expectations for him that he simply can't meet. Hyperion is right about the smoke and mirrors, which is a point you guys missed about Nash. Nash sucks on defense, but so did the Suns. They were an offensive team that won because they were an offensive juggernaut. Nash completely controlled that offense. If they won, their offense led by Nash was the reason. There was no deception. Nash had the exact same identity as the Suns as a team. With the Bulls, they grind you down with defense, and Rose hits you with a shot or two to finish the job, and suddenly he is the hero who carried them the whole game. Obviously he is their best player, but there is some deception regarding the season he is having and how it correlates with the Bulls success. If he was having an even better season, but the Bulls team defense was merely average, he wouldn't be getting any looks for MVP. 

Statistically, he and Russell Westbrook are having almost identical seasons.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I wonder if this Rose Backlash will happen in time to affect the MVP voting? I doubt it.

I definitely agree that someone like Dwight Howard is more deserving(and it's not even close comparing his play to Rose)--but Rose plays on a better team and that matters in MVP voting...ALWAYS.

Howard, Lebron, Wade, Kobe, and Durant are all having better seasons than Rose I believe. But you haven't heard any of their names besides Lebron as possible MVP candidates.

I mean...the Lakers and Bulls have basically the same record, and Kobe has better numbers than Rose--why isn't Kobe the frontrunner right now?

The case for Rose for MVP is simply: well the Bulls have a better record than the Heat. That seems to be the basic arguement.

I mean if it's just about that, let's give the MVP to Ginobilli. He's on the best team in the league. If there are no statistics to back up Rose's candidacy, why not make Manu MVP?


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I don't mean to sound like I hate Rose, I really don't. In fact, if there wasn't this circus hype around him, he would be quickly be becoming my favorite non-Suns player. His game is very similar to Marbury, who was my favorite player (even when he went crazy I held out hope that he would just have one more great game). However, Marbury was never the best PG in the NBA and neither is Rose. 

As a side note, I was absolutely pissed at the Suns for not getting Thibodeau to be an assistant coach to D'Antoni. Imagine the league's best defensive coach teaming with the league's best offensive coach. That would be historical.

Yes, Thibodeau is the league's best defensive coach. Doc Rivers didn't suddenly learn how to coach in Boston, Thibodeau arrived and they got better.


----------



## Damian Necronamous

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Hyperion said:


> Marbury was never the best PG in the NBA and neither is Rose.


Rose isn't the best PG in the NBA?

He's by far the best player on the team with the second best record in the league, so he certainly has a good case.

25/4/8 ain't too bad...that's all I'm sayin.


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

That must make Montae Ellis the second best, or is he the best because he's the only player in the league who averages more shot attempts? If you're that superficial then good for you.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Damian Necronamous said:


> Rose isn't the best PG in the NBA?


no, he's not. 



> He's by far the best player on the team with the second best record in the league, so he certainly has a good case.


This is on par with arguing that Billups should have been MVP on the Pistons team. You can't just blindly say, "Oh, he's the captain of the team and they're winning, he's the best player in the league!" 

25/4/8 ain't too bad...that's all I'm sayin.[/QUOTE]

I never said it was.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

What point guard has played better than Rose this year? Paul has been disinterested all year and has choked time and time again in the clutch. Also he's been injured and obviously not the same player that he's been in recent years. I have no doubt that he will retake his crown as the premeir point in the league but at this point he hasn't played better than Rose this year.

Williams will have spent the second half of the season playing for nothing, and it's not like he was tearing up the league in Utah, either.

Anyone trying to pimp Rondo as the best point guard in the league either doesn't watch the Celtics play or is a ****ing moron. You throw Rose on that team instead of Rondo and they beat the Lakers in five last year.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I'd go out on a limb and say Westbrook is having a better year, at minimum it's a dead heat. He's averaging more assists, more rebounds, more steals and more FTAs. He takes 3 fewer shots but only scores 2 fewer ppg. He's not even the best player on the Thunder!

Nash directly accounts for 57 of 104ppg the Suns score (either through assists or scoring) It would probably be damn near 100% if they had a hockey assist count. 53% of the shots that are made when Nash is in the game he has assisted on them. Rondo is 2nd with 47% and Rose is 8th at 39% behind Calderon and Harris. You can't even hide behind the TS% that all the Kobe supporters use to defend his scoring efficiency because Rose is not even the third most efficient scorer on the team. He's a ball hog and it's a matter of time before he starts getting called out for it.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Hyperion said:


> I'd go out on a limb and say Westbrook is having a better year, at minimum it's a dead heat. He's averaging more assists, more rebounds, more steals and more FTAs. He takes 3 fewer shots but only scores 2 fewer ppg. He's not even the best player on the Thunder!
> 
> Nash directly accounts for 57 of 104ppg the Suns score (either through assists or scoring) It would probably be damn near 100% if they had a hockey assist count. 53% of the shots that are made when Nash is in the game he has assisted on them. Rondo is 2nd with 47% and Rose is 8th at 39% behind Calderon and Harris. You can't even hide behind the TS% that all the Kobe supporters use to defend his scoring efficiency because Rose is not even the third most efficient scorer on the team. He's a ball hog and it's a matter of time before he starts getting called out for it.


All right, let's put this into context:

First: this thread is about the MVP award, not about who is the best player, or who's having the best season, stats-wise. This is about who has proven to be the moist valuable player for his team.

Second: this is a regular season award. Yes, you can win MVP and be ousted in the first round of the playoffs.

Third: the history of the award has proven the winner comes from one of the best regular season teams.

With that in mind:
Best 6 teams in the NBA:
1- San Antonio;
2- Boston and Chicago;
4- Los Angeles;
5- Dallas;
6- Miami. 
7- Oklahoma;
8- Orlando.

Considering those teams/rosters, the ones i would say have a player that stands out from it's teammates are Chicago, Los Angeles, Dallas and Orlando.

That would make the MVP award to be disputed by Rose, Kobe, Dirk and D-Ho.

Now, considering individual play, both Kobe and Dirk are having a medium season (considering their peak ones), while Rose and D-Ho ate putting up the numbers.

By this train of thought, it all comes dow to Rose vs D-Ho.

While D-Ho is the best defender of the NBA, and a not-to.shabby offensive player, one has the feeling that the Magic should be higher on the stands. They have the talent to be one of the best (regular season) teams in the NBA. they are currently the 8th best team.

On the other hand, the Bulls have surprised everybody and are currently challenging for best team in the East (and second-best overall(.

Couple that with 25ppg/4rpg/8apg and the hability to carry the team and *close out *games (something that a guy like Lebron hasn't proven capable of) and what do you got?

In a way, i agree that Derrick Rose is not as good as a player to be winning the MVP Award. But maybe it's a season of weaker competition.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



PauloCatarino said:


> But maybe it's a season of weaker competition.


It is a weaker season, but it doesn't matter because the best candidates are still dismissed for arbitrary reasons that have little to do with actual value. I know that people agree that the criteria is messed up, but I think they're a little too quick to accept it, as if it's not twisted.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Look at the head to head match ups of Rose vs. (insert PG name here) and Rose generally out played them, and his team got the Win. Hence him being the leading candidate for the MVP award. Wins matter more than glossy statistics, and you don't get to be the MVP of the league if you're not considered the consensus best player on your team regardless of team wins, and individual brilliance, sorry Manu Ginobili, and Dwyane Wade.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Ok. Rose might not be the best PG.

But this season he's been the best player at that position. 

Russell Westbrook is playing great, but keep in mind when it comes down to it he's the second option and faces a different kind of pressure than Rose.

Rose is expected to lead his team and be the main guy also.

But if the MVP is truly a most valuable player award it has to be Dwight Howard's.

You can point to the addition of a great defensive coach, the signing of Boozer, the play of Noah in Chicago. Lebron playing with Wade in Miami, LA playing well when they actually try - but for me Dwight is the MVP. Orlando suffers the most with no Howard IMO. He's the best center in the NBA, the best offensive player on his team, the best defender in the league, cannot be guarded one on one under damn near any condition, and if his team wasn't filled with gumps they'd have more wins.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

To the people on here insinuating that Rose can't get any better than he already is, and winning an MVP is setting the bar to high, and the expectations can't be met by Mr. Rose. What gives you that indication ? Especially when considering he's improved every single season he's been in the NBA. Why do you think after 3 seasons, he's suddenly going to level off ?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Even if Rose (and Westbrook) are the best point guards this year with Paul and Williams having down years, what does that mean in terms of the MVP. Isn't that the kind of title that would land you on the All-NBA 1st team? There are atleast 5 guys and usually more who are atleast arguably the best players at their position in any given year. 

If being the best at your position help you in the MVP race, I would think that helps Dwight more than anybody. He dominates that position more than anyone else dominates theirs.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Even if Rose (and Westbrook) are the best point guards this year with Paul and Williams having down years, what does that mean in terms of the MVP. Isn't that the kind of title that would land you on the All-NBA 1st team? There are atleast 5 guys and usually more who are atleast arguably the best players at their position in any given year.
> 
> If being the best at your position help you in the MVP race, I would think that helps Dwight more than anybody. He dominates that position more than anyone else dominates theirs.


The Bulls are much better than the Thunder, and Magic in terms of Conference play, and Wins and Losses. That is an even bigger factor than individual statistical performance, and impact.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

The bulls are also a better team than the magic.

Noah and Boozer are better than anyone on the Magic not named Dwight Howard, and Deng is having a more consistent season than Magic role players. Also as the fourth best Bull Deng is no worse than the third best Magician.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Well no matter if you agree or disagree that he is the MVP, you'd be wrong if you think he's not going to get it.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

The Magic have a very deep and tremendous team. They've just underperformed to the expectations that have been set for the Magic since making it to the NBA Finals. And maybe new guys via trade finding their roles and adapting has something to do with it. It's very clear Gilbert Arenas is not the same player, and even Hedo seems to be under performing. However this team still has a wealth of talent with Jason Richardson, Jameer Nelson, JJ Reddick, and Brandon Bass. However, for as maligned as Vince Carter and Rashard Lewis were, I still think the Magic were better with them versus the way the team is presently constructed. Maybe if Arenas can get healthy and Hedo can regain form this Magic team may elevate back up in status. Not sure, it will be interesting to see in the playoffs what they do.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> Well no matter if you agree or disagree that he is the MVP, you'd be wrong if you think he's not going to get it.


That's the truth. He's new, he's fresh and he's having his best year ever, unlike the other candidates.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

^ Dwight is clearly enjoying his best season.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

People are starting to seem a little down on Rose. Maybe it's just me, but I'm starting to see some hesitation with analysts and the Race To MVP guys regarding Rose. I'm starting to think that the voters are going to panick and go with someone they know is more established.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Derrick Rose with another big game and win on the road. He just keeps cementing his MVP status, and the Bulls keep winning. 50-19 in a dead lock with the Celtics.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

A win against the Hawks is the equivilent of beating a JV girls team these days though. 

But Rose still played extremely well, his jumper has come a long way from the first time I saw him in Atlanta during his rookie year.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Howard is going to win DPOY, if he wins the MVP that would mean that he would be hands down the best player in the league. Howard has been great, I have no problem with him winning the MVP, but for one player to win the DPOY and the MVP in the same season, he would have to be downright dominant. Howard has been amazing but he has not been jordan-like


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> A win against the Hawks is the equivilent of beating a JV girls team these days though.
> 
> But Rose still played extremely well, his jumper has come a long way from the first time I saw him in Atlanta during his rookie year.


No preferential treatment by Rose, bad or good, you're going to get his best. Rose is not only playing incredible, but probably has the most jaw dropping individual plays off the dribble on a nightly basis. And yeah that shot continues to develop. Guys now have to run out and put a hand in his face when he shoots, they can't sag off him, which just opens up lanes, and causes all kinds of havoc on the opposing teams defense. So now Rose has that pick your poison combination, which is just lethal with his driving and finishing ability.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Do people still watch games or do they just look at the Per and all the other advanced stats to decide who's the best?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> The Bulls are much better than the Thunder, and Magic in terms of Conference play, and Wins and Losses. That is an even bigger factor than individual statistical performance, and impact.


The Spurs are much better than the Bulls. So if we overlook superior individual performance in one case for the sake of team record, then we have to be consistent and do it in all cases. That makes the MVP award easy to give, because you just give it to the best player on the best team. 

Ginobili is to Rose as Rose is to Howard. The same logic used to justify Rose over Howard could be used to justify Ginobili over Rose. And as much as I like Manu, when guys like him start winning the award, it's gone completely nutty.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

If the Bulls and Lakers finish with the same record, what is the justification of giving the MVP to Rose versus giving it to Kobe?


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Best Player on Most Suprising Team: Either Rose or Ginobilli
Best player in the league this season: Lebron or Dwight Howard

Who you think is the MVP depends on which of these things you think the MVP is.

The former is the reason that Allen Iverson and Steve Nash have MVPs. The latter is why Jordan, Shaq, and Hakeem have them.


----------



## SheriffKilla

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I don't see why LeBron doesn't win it. He is still clearly the best player and having a better season than anyone.
I guess I'd go Kobe and Rose next.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



SheriffKilla said:


> I don't see why LeBron doesn't win it. He is still clearly the best player and having a better season than anyone.
> I guess I'd go Kobe and Rose next.


Dwight Howard is having the second best season, by a very slim margin--and very quietly. In year's past Dwight's lack of offensive numbers were hurting him in the head to head with Lebron, but this year the margin has narrowed. Of course the margin on the other end has narrowed as well.

But yeah, those two are having the best seasons it seems, if you look across all of the advanced statistics.

There's a really good youtube I saw this morning that basically broke all of this down, and was pretty interesting.

The suprising thing I saw was that two guys Wade and Paul were also on a lot of those same lists, and their names haven't really been mentioned in the MVP race. 

CP3 is doing what Derrick Rose's hype says he is doing. Which is dragging a **** ball team to a level they don't belong. On one leg no less. And unlike Rose there are statistical markers which attest to that fact. I think CP3 is winning win shares right now, and is up there on PER behind Dwight and Lebron.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Kobe dropped 42/12/9 last night in a win against the Suns if anyone cares. Granted he needed three overtimes to do it, but still impressive.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



SheriffKilla said:


> I don't see why LeBron doesn't win it. He is still clearly the best player and having a better season than anyone.
> I guess I'd go Kobe and Rose next.


Stats are one thing, but winning is another. Obviously Lebron helps his team win a lot of games, but in the last two minutes of the game, he has continuously gone cold. Rose seems to have most of his bad games when facing inferior teams, and gets up for the big games. I think Howard is about just as deserving as Rose, just not on top 5 team.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> The Spurs are much better than the Bulls. So if we overlook superior individual performance in one case for the sake of team record, then we have to be consistent and do it in all cases. That makes the MVP award easy to give, because you just give it to the best player on the best team.
> 
> Ginobili is to Rose as Rose is to Howard. The same logic used to justify Rose over Howard could be used to justify Ginobili over Rose. And as much as I like Manu, when guys like him start winning the award, it's gone completely nutty.


You must of missed my other post regarding why Manu and Wade won't ever be MVPs with their current roster. So here it is for you.



> Originally Posted by *23AJ*
> Look at the head to head match ups of Rose vs. (insert PG name here) and Rose generally out played them, and his team got the Win. Hence him being the leading candidate for the MVP award. Wins matter more than glossy statistics, and you don't get to be the MVP of the league if you're not considered the consensus best player on your team regardless of team wins, and individual brilliance, sorry Manu Ginobili, and Dwyane Wade.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> If the Bulls and Lakers finish with the same record, what is the justification of giving the MVP to Rose versus giving it to Kobe?


Derrick Rose is considered to be leading this team, Kobe on the other hand had a lot more help, and their already defined, champions, etc And for as good as their defense is, and role players are, this Bulls team isn't at the top of the East with out Derrick Rose.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Best Player on Most Suprising Team: Either Rose or Ginobilli
> Best player in the league this season: Lebron or Dwight Howard
> 
> Who you think is the MVP depends on which of these things you think the MVP is.
> 
> The former is the reason that Allen Iverson and Steve Nash have MVPs. The latter is why Jordan, Shaq, and Hakeem have them.


You can't have LeBron for MVP and not Wade. Both guys are equally as valuable to their teams.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Derrick Rose is considered to be leading this team, Kobe on the other hand had a lot more help, and their already defined, champions, etc And for as good as their defense is, and role players are, this Bulls team isn't at the top of the East with out Derrick Rose.


Anyone pretending like Kobe isn't/hasn't led the Lakers every single game since Shaq's depature is a damn fool. The fact that he can keep mentally soft players who have already been the to the top of the mountain focused is a feat in itself. Yeah, obviously the Bulls wouldn't have the best record in the east if it wasn't for Rose, but the Lakers wouldn't se second to only the Spurs if it wasn't for Bryant.

I'm not saying that Kobe should win it, but your logic is pretty flawed.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Anyone pretending like Kobe isn't/hasn't led the Lakers every single game since Shaq's depature is a damn fool. The fact that he can keep mentally soft players who have already been the to the top of the mountain focused is a feat in itself. Yeah, obviously the Bulls wouldn't have the best record in the east if it wasn't for Rose, but the Lakers wouldn't se second to only the Spurs if it wasn't for Bryant.
> 
> I'm not saying that Kobe should win it, but your logic is pretty flawed.


I think you're taking my comment the wrong way, so let me better explain my point, I'm not insinuating Kobe isn't the leader of the Lakers, but for all his glory his teammates are generally the ones maligned when they're playing poorly, suddenly the Kobe factor of leadership has no accountability. The reason I think that happens is because the Lakers cup runnith over with talent. Why should Kobe be blamed when LA loses to the Cavs. Why should Kobe be blamed when LA underperforms in the regular season, and he tells the media "I'm not worried" etc Yet when Kobe makes a crucial couple shots to win a game, he's put up on some kind of damn throne. Sorry, but to me that's what Kobe is all about to finish a game, but there is a huge segment of game that Kobes teammates also pull their weight and help win ball games, that get grossly over looked. Which is a shame because of it wasn't for Kobe's teammates no way in hell do the Lakers win game 7 of the NBA Finals. 

And IMO the Lakers don't drop off with out Kobe out West that much. And that's no slight to Bryant, that's just the facts when a team is built with Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, Lamar Odom, Ron Artest, Derick Fisher, and insert SG name here. They would be extremely good for a long time still. 

And my point about Rose is that he's defining himself and what he is now, he's learning, and finding out what it takes to be a closer, he's tasting that blood, and it's clear likes it. A very common trait of all the great players. The Kid is also what 21 or 22 years old ? And he's already getting it, and racking it up. Derrick Rose is definitely the most deserving candidate for MVP. And the fact he's just now writing his story plays apart in it, just like it did for every other young player that shaped their game and became stars in front of our eyes, they benefited too.


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> I think you're taking my comment the wrong way, so let me better explain my point, I'm not insinuating Kobe isn't the leader of the Lakers, but for all his glory his teammates are generally the ones maligned when they're playing poorly, suddenly the Kobe factor of leadership has no accountability. The reason I think that happens is because the Lakers cup runnith over with talent. Why should Kobe be blamed when LA loses to the Cavs. Why should Kobe be blamed when LA underperforms in the regular season, and he tells the media "I'm not worried" etc Yet when Kobe makes a crucial couple shots to win a game, he's put up on some kind of damn throne. Sorry, but to me that's what Kobe is all about to finish a game, but there is a huge segment of game that Kobes teammates also pull their weight and help win ball games, that get grossly over looked. *Which is a shame because of it wasn't for Kobe's teammates no way in hell do the Lakers win game 7 of the NBA Finals. *


Yes, but if it wasn't for Kobe, Lakers wouldn't be in the Finals to begin with.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Basel said:


> Yes, but if it wasn't for Kobe, Lakers wouldn't be in the Finals to begin with.


Okay maybe, but maybe not, all I'm saying is that they will still be damn good with out Kobe, and in reality that's something you LA fans need to start thinking about. There might not be a basketball season next year. And with Kobe's age climbing toward his mid 30s, a year off isn't going to do him any favors. However LA will still be in great shape out West with Bynum/Gasol/Odom/Artest/etc etc


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> You can't have LeBron for MVP and not Wade. Both guys are equally as valuable to their teams.


I have said that as well. So no arguments here.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> I think you're taking my comment the wrong way, so let me better explain my point, I'm not insinuating Kobe isn't the leader of the Lakers, but for all his glory his teammates are generally the ones maligned when they're playing poorly, suddenly the Kobe factor of leadership has no accountability. The reason I think that happens is because the Lakers cup runnith over with talent. Why should Kobe be blamed when LA loses to the Cavs. Why should Kobe be blamed when LA underperforms in the regular season, and he tells the media "I'm not worried" etc Yet when Kobe makes a crucial couple shots to win a game, he's put up on some kind of damn throne. Sorry, but to me that's what Kobe is all about to finish a game, but there is a huge segment of game that Kobes teammates also pull their weight and help win ball games, that get grossly over looked. Which is a shame because of it wasn't for Kobe's teammates no way in hell do the Lakers win game 7 of the NBA Finals.
> 
> And IMO the Lakers don't drop off with out Kobe out West that much. And that's no slight to Bryant, that's just the facts when a team is built with Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, Lamar Odom, Ron Artest, Derick Fisher, and insert SG name here. They would be extremely good for a long time still.
> 
> And my point about Rose is that he's defining himself and what he is now, he's learning, and finding out what it takes to be a closer, he's tasting that blood, and it's clear likes it. A very common trait of all the great players. The Kid is also what 21 or 22 years old ? And he's already getting it, and racking it up. Derrick Rose is definitely the most deserving candidate for MVP. And the fact he's just now writing his story plays apart in it, just like it did for every other young player that shaped their game and became stars in front of our eyes, they benefited too.


Kobe Bryant isn't held responsible for the Lakers' shortcomings? Come on now. The man was by far the most scrutinized player in the sport until LeBron's Decision last summer and it's not even debatable. And the reason Kobe isn't **** on (as much) for regular season games (any more) is because he's a five time champion and the two time reigning Finals MVP. It's clear that the Lakers don't take the regular season seriously, but it's also clear that Kobe has been the only player on the roster that has gave a damn every single game thus far.

Don't get me wrong, Kobe has *awesome* teammates. I love his supporting cast. Ron Artest and Andrew Bynum are both in my top five favorite players in the league, and Pau is one of the three best bigs in the game. People give them their due, trust me.

If you replaced Kobe with a SG of comparable ability (Wade for instince) they obviously would not drop off that much, but you could say the same thing with replacing Rose with Deron or Paul. But if you're insinuating that the Lakers would be in the playoffs without him and no compensation then I don't know if I can get behind that. That would leave the Lakers with the worst backcourt in the NBA bar none, along with no one who can create their own shot out of the post at a high level. Teams would pack the paint against their awesome frontcourt and probably prevail more times than not. Keeping in mind that Bynum has missed signifigant time this year and Pau has shown that he clearly can't lead anyone as a first option and I'm not banking on these guys being as good as the other fringe playoff teams in the *west.* Granted Kobe wouldn't be winning 'ships every year if it wasn't for his stellar supporting cast, but that's all they are, a stellar supporting cast. They need Kobe (or some me first perimeter player) to demand the ball, hit shots, and keep all of their asses in line.

That's all fine and dandy but your last paragraph is talking about how Rose is a great story and how he will be one of the best players in the NBA for years to come (which I agree with) not that he is the deserving MVP, because he's not. He should be on the first team but that's about as far as I would go at this point. I'm not going to be behind giving a player the MVP that isn't a top five player.

That being said I'm still giving the MVP to Dwight. Man has been a monster this year.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Kobe Bryant isn't held responsible for the Lakers' shortcomings? Come on now. The man was by far the most scrutinized player in the sport until LeBron's Decision last summer and it's not even debatable. And the reason Kobe isn't **** on (as much) for regular season games (any more) is because he's a five time champion and the two time reigning Finals MVP. It's clear that the Lakers don't take the regular season seriously, but it's also clear that Kobe has been the only player on the roster that has gave a damn every single game thus far.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, Kobe has *awesome* teammates. I love his supporting cast. Ron Artest and Andrew Bynum are both in my top five favorite players in the league, and Pau is one of the three best bigs in the game. People give them their due, trust me.
> 
> If you replaced Kobe with a SG of comparable ability (Wade for instince) they obviously would not drop off that much, but you could say the same thing with replacing Rose with Deron or Paul. But if you're insinuating that the Lakers would be in the playoffs without him and no compensation then I don't know if I can get behind that. That would leave the Lakers with the worst backcourt in the NBA bar none, along with no one who can create their own shot out of the post at a high level. Teams would pack the paint against their awesome frontcourt and probably prevail more times than not. Keeping in mind that Bynum has missed signifigant time this year and Pau has shown that he clearly can't lead anyone as a first option and I'm not banking on these guys being as good as the other fringe playoff teams in the *west.* Granted Kobe wouldn't be winning 'ships every year if it wasn't for his stellar supporting cast, but that's all they are, a stellar supporting cast. They need Kobe (or some me first perimeter player) to demand the ball, hit shots, and keep all of their asses in line.
> 
> That's all fine and dandy but your last paragraph is talking about how Rose is a great story and how he will be one of the best players in the NBA for years to come (which I agree with) not that he is the deserving MVP, because he's not. He should be on the first team but that's about as far as I would go at this point. I'm not going to be behind giving a player the MVP that isn't a top five player.
> 
> That being said I'm still giving the MVP to Dwight. Man has been a monster this year.


The thing that comes down to Rose is winning, he's winning at the highest clip in his conference. The Chicago Bulls are also beating all the elite teams in the league, again led by Rose. That makes a huge impact when viewing Rose. He's having great games against the other great players, but his team is winning 8x out of 10. The only other teams you can say that about is the Spurs and Celtics. And nobody is going to award the MVP to Manu or anyone on the Celtics. So That puts him ahead of the other players in the running for the MVP award. I think we all would agree that the MVP award does not = The best player in the NBA award. So once we put that issue to rest, IMO Rose is the most deserving MVP candidate. 

And As I've said before, my feelings wouldn't be hurt at all if Dwight Howard won the award. I'm just not sour on the idea of Rose winning it like a lot of other people are.


----------



## Idunkonyou

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> The thing that comes down to Rose is winning, he's winning at the highest clip in his conference. The Chicago Bulls are also beating all the elite teams in the league, again led by Rose. That makes a huge impact when viewing Rose. He's having great games against the other great players, but his team is winning 8x out of 10. The only other teams you can say that about is the Spurs and Celtics. And nobody is going to award the MVP to Manu or anyone on the Celtics. So That puts him ahead of the other players in the running for the MVP award. I think we all would agree that the MVP award does not = The best player in the NBA award. So once we put that issue to rest, IMO Rose is the most deserving MVP candidate.
> 
> And As I've said before, my feelings wouldn't be hurt at all if Dwight Howard won the award. I'm just not sour on the idea of Rose winning it like a lot of other people are.


Thing is, Howard is winning as well. In fact I wouldn't be shocked, looking at the Magic schedule, if they didn't go undefeated the rest of the season, giving them 56 wins on the season. Either way, I doubt the Magic win less than 54 games this year. That isn't losing by any means.

Also no one has had a better season than Howard this year. No one. Man just had another beast game tonight. Used to be his offense was holding him back. Now I would love to hear the excuse as to why he doesn't win not only DPOTY, but MVP as well. The guy is EVERYTHING for his team, on both sides.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Basel said:


> Yes, but if it wasn't for Kobe, Lakers wouldn't be in the Finals to begin with.


Boom.


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Best Player on Most Suprising Team: Either Rose or Ginobilli
> Best player in the league this season: Lebron or Dwight Howard
> 
> Who you think is the MVP depends on which of these things you think the MVP is.
> 
> The former is the reason that Allen Iverson and Steve Nash have MVPs. The latter is why Jordan, Shaq, and Hakeem have them.


Don't mean to sound like a shill, but I wrote a post on my blog about that. Link is in my sig.

Now let me hang my head in shame for such a plug.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Good blog.

I'd love to see someone quantify Derrick Rose's value to the Bulls in a way that proves he is actually more valuable to them than Howard or Lebron are to their teams. Is there anything beyond "well he just is?" I mean we have statistics that measure a players impact, and by those measures Howard and Lebron are pretty much neck and neck in every category. Obviously you factor in that Lebron's season hasn't really warranted what would be a 3rd straight MVP for him. I mean, the Bulls aren't THAT much better than the Magic. But you look at what Howard is working with vs. Rose--and it seems like Howard is producing more value.


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I'll let the man make his own case:


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Best Player on Most Suprising Team: Either Rose or Ginobilli
> Best player in the league this season: Lebron or Dwight Howard
> 
> *Who you think is the MVP depends on which of these things you think the MVP is.*
> 
> The former is the reason that Allen Iverson and Steve Nash have MVPs. The latter is why Jordan, Shaq, and Hakeem have them.


AGAIN: The NVP award is NOT intended to crown the best NBA player. (Unless people think that guys like Nash, KG, Iverson, etc., etc., were the best players around when they won the award...)
The award for the best players is the All-Nba Teams selection.

Like it or not, that's the way it goes. A great example would be Russell winning MVP while Wilt being selected first team over him.

That been said, in no way, shape or form Lebron James' name can be put in the discussion for MVP. Wade also, and for the same reason.


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



PauloCatarino said:


> AGAIN: The NVP award is NOT intended to crown the best NBA player. (Unless people think that guys like Nash, KG, Iverson, etc., etc., were the best players around when they won the award...)
> The award for the best players is the All-Nba Teams selection.
> 
> Like it or not, that's the way it goes. A great example would be Russell winning MVP while Wilt being selected first team over him.
> 
> That been said, in no way, shape or form Lebron James' name can be put in the discussion for MVP. Wade also, and for the same reason.


So who are you MVP discussion Hitler?


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Seanzie's blog kind of speaks to that really well. I think the MVP SHOULD be about crowning the best player for that season, because it makes the award mean more historically looking back. Like Seanzie pointed out, even though Kobe has one MVP, he doesn't have an MVP for his best season where he was clearly the best player in the league. Same with Duncan. Jordan. Shaq.

Everytime someone who isn't the best player of that season wins the MVP it waters down the award. 

Rose's MVP will have the same asterisk that Iverson's does. He won the award, but there were better players that year that people didn't want to vote for.

Which is fine. I'm just pointing out that that is what is going on. So long as people realize that the reason they are voting Rose for MVP has more to do with expectations than actual results.


----------



## 3pointgod

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

It's already decided people... Derrick Rose WILL win the MVP. The Bulls are the current top seed in the East and it's because of one man. Yeah, I know, he can't pass the SAT's but the man can flat out play ball, and his outside shooting has improved so much I can't believe it. Howard comes in second, but trust me the media have made up their minds, Rose will win it.


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



3pointgod said:


> It's already decided people... Derrick Rose WILL win the MVP. The Bulls are the current top seed in the East and it's because of one man. Yeah, I know, he can't pass the SAT's but the man can flat out play ball, and his outside shooting has improved so much I can't believe it. Howard comes in second, but trust me the media have made up their minds, Rose will win it.


Welcome to the boards.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Diable said:


> So who are you MVP discussion Hitler?


I've always thought Benito had a whole lotta more _panache _

Hell, look at fruity: eventhough i tried to put sense into people, young grasshopper is still venting about that whole "best player" nonsense...


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Seanzie's blog kind of speaks to that really well. I think the MVP SHOULD be about crowning the best player for that season, because it makes the award mean more historically looking back. Like Seanzie pointed out, even though Kobe has one MVP, he doesn't have an MVP for his best season where he was clearly the best player in the league. Same with Duncan. Jordan. Shaq.
> 
> Everytime someone who isn't the best player of that season wins the MVP it waters down the award.
> 
> Rose's MVP will have the same asterisk that Iverson's does. He won the award, but there were better players that year that people didn't want to vote for.
> 
> Which is fine. I'm just pointing out that that is what is going on. So long as people realize that the reason they are voting Rose for MVP has more to do with expectations than actual results.


Without butting heads with you, I feel the same way about Lebron this year as you feel about Rose.

I don't see how you vote a guy MVP just because he puts up good stats, but fails to get his team playing up to the level everyone knows they are capable of playing. Yes, I do believe expectations play into this, and probably should.

Lebron deserved MVP last year and the year before. He does not deserve it this year.

Durant, Howard, Kobe...those are the 3 main guys, IMO.


----------



## Tragedy

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Good point about Lebron Yodurk.


You just peed in his cornflakes though. lol.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



yodurk said:


> Without butting heads with you, I feel the same way about Lebron this year as you feel about Rose.
> 
> I don't see how you vote a guy MVP just because he puts up good stats, but fails to get his team playing up to the level everyone knows they are capable of playing. Yes, I do believe expectations play into this, and probably should.


Well at least you admit that the reason Rose deserves the NBA is because the expectations for the Bulls and Rose were so low.

I don't think expectations really mean much when it comes to what's actually going on on the floor.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

As a Bulls fan, I don't think the MVP is a big deal. Of course I'd like to see Rose get it, but if he doesn't show up big in the playoffs and eventually get a ring or two, it won't matter and the MVP will be viewed as fraudulent by many. Its not about best stats, best storyline, or highest value to a team, its all of these. The Lebron supporters who bring up stats don't bring up his last two minute stats, which most know how important those are in basketball. 

Rose, Howard, Kobe, Lebron are all deserving. If the media personal are the ones who vote and you don't trust their opinion, why get worked up for it. The playoffs will determine the true MVP.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Why don't you give us Lebron's statitics for the final two minutes compared to Derrick Rose. According to 82games.com Lebron actually has better overall clutch numbers(final five minutes) by a slight margin compared to Rose.

Even more so when you factor in clutch defense.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Why don't you give us Lebron's statitics for the final two minutes compared to Derrick Rose. According to 82games.com Lebron actually has better overall clutch numbers(final five minutes) by a slight margin compared to Rose.
> 
> Even more so when you factor in clutch defense.


Honestly I was going off the stats I heard about a month ago that he was 1-9 or something this season in game tying-winning shots, I could be wrong, I'll look it up.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Well at least you admit that the reason Rose deserves the NBA is because the expectations for the Bulls and Rose were so low.


I am in fact happy to admit it as the reason why the majority (media especially) is pitching Rose as MVP. Expectations were pretty modest for the Bulls and they've well surpassed them. That works strongly in Rose's favor.

While I think that is a valid criteria for MVP selection, it is not the only criteria, and Rose could do better on some of those other areas. That is why I don't think Rose should get MVP.

That being said, I think there are some flawed reasons being thrown around against Rose. Kelly Dwyer just had a Yahoo article giving the logic: "The Bulls win because of their defense, and Rose is not their best defender, therefore is not the most valuable person to their most valuable quality (defense)". That is just silly, IMO, because Rose is far and away the most important offensive player on a team that is otherwise not very good offensively (not to mention he's been quite good all year on D, thanks to Thibodeau). That makes his "value" far higher than an offensive performer for another team.

Rather, I would cite Rose's bouts of sloppiness and mental lapses during the more "routine" parts of the game. This is something I don't see Kobe Bryant do very often, for instance. I would attribute it more to Rose's youth and inexperience, and plenty of time to correct it. (And, I do think it's partly related to his higher than desired turnover rate, and his lower than desired FG%).

This is me nitpicking an otherwise tremendous player who certainly deserves to be on the MVP short list.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



yodurk said:


> That being said, I think there are some flawed reasons being thrown around against Rose. Kelly Dwyer just had a Yahoo article giving the logic: "The Bulls win because of their defense, and Rose is not their best defender, therefore is not the most valuable person to their most valuable quality (defense)". That is just silly, IMO, because Rose is far and away the most important offensive player on a team that is otherwise not very good offensively (not to mention he's been quite good all year on D, thanks to Thibodeau). That makes his "value" far higher than an offensive performer for another team.


Yeah but by this, the Bulls would be a better team with DWade instead of Derrick Rose, because Wade is even better offensively than Rose. Or Amare for that matter.


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Dwyane Wade


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Heated said:


> Dwyane Wade


It's weird to say but the Heat play with two MVP candidates.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



yodurk said:


> Rather, I would cite Rose's bouts of sloppiness and mental lapses during the more "routine" parts of the game. This is something I don't see Kobe Bryant do very often, for instance. I would attribute it more to Rose's youth and inexperience, and plenty of time to correct it. (And, I do think it's partly related to his higher than desired turnover rate, and his lower than desired FG%).


This is exactly what happened tonight, he seems to get lazy in a sense, especially in the first or second quarters. It seems like he always starts out 1-5 or something then turns it around, especially when playing average-below average teams. When its a big game or if they are behind in the third and fourth quarter, he doesn't settle for the outside shots and starts driving. I know he's not a lazy basketball player and works hard in the offseason etc., but he seems to play just good enough to get by sometimes.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> It's weird to say but the Heat play with two MVP candidates.


Dwyane Wade is every bit as good as LeBron James.


----------



## Pinball

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Dwyane Wade is every bit as good as LeBron James.


Isn't that what futuristexan basically said? You're like a broken record man.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> This is exactly what happened tonight, he seems to get lazy in a sense, especially in the first or second quarters. It seems like he always starts out 1-5 or something then turns it around, especially when playing average-below average teams. When its a big game or if they are behind in the third and fourth quarter, he doesn't settle for the outside shots and starts driving. I know he's not a lazy basketball player and works hard in the offseason etc., but he seems to play just good enough to get by sometimes.


Yes, exactly. While the Memphis game last night was one of his worst of the season, in some ways it was representative of what I don't like about Rose (again, from a nitpicking sense). I love that he saves the best for last, but has a bad habit of starting out games ice cold. He also made a key turnover late in the game, in a close game. He always seems to redeem himself though, e.g, hitting a 3-pt play to essentially ice the game last night. 

To most people, those big plays far out weigh the little things and that's why it's easy to slip into the MVP chants. I happen to find the little things very important and key to him taking the next step into "Tier 1" status.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



PauloCatarino said:


> AGAIN: The NVP award is NOT intended to crown the best NBA player. (Unless people think that guys like Nash, KG, Iverson, etc., etc., were the best players around when they won the award...)
> The award for the best players is the All-Nba Teams selection.
> 
> Like it or not, that's the way it goes. A great example would be Russell winning MVP while Wilt being selected first team over him.
> 
> That been said, in no way, shape or form Lebron James' name can be put in the discussion for MVP. Wade also, and for the same reason.


I think Kevin Garnett was the best player in the league the year he won his MVP.


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> It's weird to say but the Heat play with two MVP candidates.


I wouldn't complain if Lebron won it, but he already has 2. I'd like to see Dwyane get one, he's been every bit as important to Miami like you said.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Wade isn't as good as LeBron. He hasn't been since 2006. Everyone else besides a few Heat fans and 23AJ have accepted this. LeBron is the best player in the world, no one else is up there.


----------



## Dissonance

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Pinball said:


> Isn't that what futuristexan basically said? You're like a broken record man.


:laugh:


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Pinball said:


> Isn't that what futuristexan basically said? You're like a broken record man.


Hey *man*, how did you know ? I will state for the* record* my soul is *broken*. How did you know *man *?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Wade isn't as good as LeBron. He hasn't been since 2006. Everyone else besides a few Heat fans and 23AJ have accepted this. LeBron is the best player in the world, no one else is up there.


IMO in 08-09 D Wade played as well as anybody in the league. To me there is really nothing that puts James over Wade other than a lot of hype.


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Pinball said:


> Isn't that what futuristexan basically said? You're like a broken record man.


He has to convince himself.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> IMO in 08-09 D Wade played as well as anybody in the league. To me there is really nothing that puts James over Wade other than a lot of hype.


Well defensively Lebron is better. Wade at times can be that good. But Lebron is consistently more locked in defensively than Wade. When Wade locks in though, they are as good as each other, with the caveat that Lebron's extra length and strength means he won't get posted up.

Other than that what separates them is a very very slim margin. Lebron seems to be a better 3 point shooter as well. But Wade is a better slasher than Lebron. Again slim margins on both.

Most of Lebron's advantages over Wade have to do with the fact that he's taller, and stronger. Like for instance Lebron is a little better passer than Wade, but it's mostly because he can see over the defense better, and doesn't have to do the jump pass as often as Wade does. The shooting advantage probably is also related to Lebron having a cleaner look in general.

Wade is marginally better than Lebron in the post right now as well.

IMO when it all totals up Lebron is a shade above Wade, but for the most part they are more equal than the media lets you know. The heat have the two best perimeter players in the game. And by a fairly significant margin.

When they run that pick and roll together, I really haven't seen anyone stop it. It either ends up with a Wade dunk, a Lebron dunk, or a wide open corner 3. If they committed to it, it could be the most deadly play since Stockton/Malone.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Seanzie said:


> He has to convince himself.


*EDIT: There will be one of this around here. Are you kidding me, AJ? 

- Basel*


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Well defensively Lebron is better. Wade at times can be that good. But Lebron is consistently more locked in defensively than Wade. When Wade locks in though, they are as good as each other, with the caveat that Lebron's extra length and strength means he won't get posted up.
> 
> Other than that what separates them is a very very slim margin. Lebron seems to be a better 3 point shooter as well. But Wade is a better slasher than Lebron. Again slim margins on both.
> 
> Most of Lebron's advantages over Wade have to do with the fact that he's taller, and stronger. Like for instance Lebron is a little better passer than Wade, but it's mostly because he can see over the defense better, and doesn't have to do the jump pass as often as Wade does. The shooting advantage probably is also related to Lebron having a cleaner look in general.
> 
> Wade is marginally better than Lebron in the post right now as well.
> 
> IMO when it all totals up Lebron is a shade above Wade, but for the most part they are more equal than the media lets you know. The heat have the two best perimeter players in the game. And by a fairly significant margin.
> 
> When they run that pick and roll together, I really haven't seen anyone stop it. It either ends up with a Wade dunk, a Lebron dunk, or a wide open corner 3. If they committed to it, it could be the most deadly play since Stockton/Malone.


I agree with most of this, and while you have LeBron a shade over Wade, I have them on equal footing. I also put Wade as the better closer, and as far as defense goes, IMO defensively I've seen better years out of both D Wade and L James. Both immensely talented, and the best at their respective positions right now.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Derrick Rose continues to cement his MVP. Drops a 30/17 game on the road to help the Bulls comeback and win. Hit clutch buckets, and key assists late in the 4th. And the Bulls increase their lead in the East over the Celtics.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Albeit against a Bucks team that they should have beaten anyways...


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Albeit against a Bucks team that they should have beaten anyways...


Come on now.

It didn't matter what team he was playing tonight (especially not when you consider the Bucks are solid defensively).

What he did those last five minutes was something to watch.

I'm not saying it should sway your MVP argument. Of course one game shouldn't do that, but he certainly put on a performance out there tonight. Don't downplay it.


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Wade isn't as good as LeBron. He hasn't been since 2006. Everyone else besides a few Heat fans and 23AJ have accepted this. LeBron is the best player in the world, no one else is up there.


ERNNNT - WRONG. Please try again.

http://www.basketballforum.com/miami-heat/448292-2010-2011-miami-heat-player-game-year-thread.html


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Albeit against a Bucks team that they should have beaten anyways...


Yea a team thats top 10 in most major defensive categories. 

Anything else?


----------



## Ben

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Albeit against a Bucks team that they should have beaten anyways...


Since they're going for the number 1 seed, every team should be a team they should be looking to beat no?


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Wow, I am impressed. You guys baited others into taking a position that was dumb. Rose had a great game, as he has had many great games this year. He's still not No. 1 but he's getting the MVP and will forever be known as the youngest player to ever get the MVP award.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Albeit against a Bucks team that they should have beaten anyways...


So all those great games LeBron James has had against sub 500 teams shouldn't be a big deal ? Come on, you're showing a biased against Rose. He was electric last night.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Hyperion said:


> Wow, I am impressed. You guys baited others into taking a position that was dumb. Rose had a great game, as he has had many great games this year. He's still not No. 1 but he's getting the MVP and will forever be known as the youngest player to ever get the MVP award.


There is nothing dumb about every great game Rose adds to his resume this season only strengthens his position in winning the MVP. That, and his team is better than every other team in the East. I mean you had the so called experts prior to the season beginning making claims like the Heat would take down the 72 win chicago Bulls team record, on their way in route to many championships. Nobody said prior to the season that D Rose was going to elevate his game to a top 5 player, and the Bulls would sweep the Miami Heat with Derrick Rose being the one constant through out all those games in shining. The Bulls are hands down the most impressive team in the NBA right now besides the San Antonio Spurs, they easily have the better star player out of the those two teams, Derrick Rose is as deserving as Manu, Dwight, and Kobe. Give the man his damn MVP.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

At this point the only three people that have a chance are Rose, Dwight, and Kobe. Rose is pretty clearly the favorite right now but I could see the voters swaying due to Rose not being a top five player.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> There is nothing dumb about every great game Rose adds to his resume this season only strengthens his position in winning the MVP. That, and his team is better than every other team in the East. I mean you had the so called experts prior to the season beginning making claims like the Heat would take down the 72 win chicago Bulls team record, on their way in route to many championships. Nobody said prior to the season that D Rose was going to elevate his game to a top 5 player, and the Bulls would sweep the Miami Heat with Derrick Rose being the one constant through out all those games in shining. The Bulls are hands down the most impressive team in the NBA right now besides the San Antonio Spurs, they easily have the better star player out of the those two teams, Derrick Rose is as deserving as Manu, Dwight, and Kobe. Give the man his damn MVP.


ummmm...... insecure? Congratulations Bulls, it only took 10 top ten draft picks in 10 years to win 50 games. I've already said the Thibodeau is the best coach in the league, while a little shoddy on his offensive coaching, he's the best defensive coach in the league. Rose is an All Star, All NBA 2nd team, but he's not my MVP. Sorry. It doesn't mean he's not very good, he's just not having the best season IMO. Howard is dominant again and Kobe is quietly having a great season. Durant is awesome this year too. All of those guys do statistically what Rose does plus they do it more efficiently.


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> At this point the only three people that have a chance are Rose, Dwight, and Kobe. Rose is pretty clearly the favorite right now but I could see the voters swaying due to Rose not being a top five player.


Kobe? You're a homer on cracK. By the way I love how you said Lebron is the best player in the world in your previous post and then don't even list him as a top 3 MVP candidate? :laugh: C'Mon Man...


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Heated said:


> Kobe? You're a homer on cracK. By the way I love how you said Lebron is the best player in the world in your previous post and then don't even list him as a top 3 MVP candidate? :laugh: C'Mon Man...


Someone doesn't understand how MVP voting works. It doesn't go to the best player in the leauge. If it did then LeBron should win it this year, Kobe should have three, and Shaq should have a helluva lot more than one. But it's not. The award goes to a top five player who has the best story, and at this point that is Derrick Rose.

Your dislike of Kobe has been pretty well documented so I'm not going to put a whole lot of effort into this. Kobe is a top five player (second, actually) has a top three record, and statistically is better than Rose. He absolutely has a chance, whether you like it or not.

Oh, and as for me omitting LeBron? There was no way that he was going to win MVP this year unless the Heat won 70. Whether I believe that the criteria is factual is irrelavent. The fact that the Heat have the sixth beat record in the leauge and that LeBron's stats are down further diminish LeBron's chances. He's not going to win it even though he's the best player in the leauge. It's a broken system but it's the system that we have to deal with.

Oh, and your "following me around in every thread, attacking my post and then never coming up with a counter argument" shtick is getting old.


----------



## Pinball

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Someone doesn't understand how MVP voting works. It doesn't go to the best player in the leauge. If it did then LeBron should win it this year, Kobe should have three, and Shaq should have a helluva lot more than one. But it's not. The award goes to a top five player who has the best story, and at this point that is Derrick Rose.
> 
> Your dislike of Kobe has been pretty well documented so I'm not going to put a whole lot of effort into this. Kobe is a top five player (second, actually) has a top three record, and statistically is better than Rose. He absolutely has a chance, whether you like it or not.
> 
> Oh, and as for me omitting LeBron? There was no way that he was going to win MVP this year unless the Heat won 70. Whether I believe that the criteria is factual is irrelavent. The fact that the Heat have the sixth beat record in the leauge and that LeBron's stats are down further diminish LeBron's chances. He's not going to win it even though he's the best player in the leauge. It's a broken system but it's the system that we have to deal with.
> 
> Oh, and your "following me around in every thread, attacking my post and then never coming up with a counter argument" shtick is getting old.


The biggest obstacle to Wade and Lebron winning it this year and in future years is each other. They are the two best players in the league but they're statistics are damn near equal and they've (the Heat) had a somewhat "disappointing" season based on the predictions going into the season. It's difficult to have an MVP candidate when you have two elite players. The Bulls had Jordan and Pippen but Jordan was clearly superior to Pippen. While Lebron is the best player in the league, the gap between he and Wade is narrower than it was between Jordan and Pippen. Shaq won his only MVP in 1999 when he was the best player and Kobe was not yet seen as a top 5 player. After that season, Kobe was basically seen as a top 3 player and neither guy won an MVP until they were separated. Unless one of the players stands out from the other, I don't think it's realistic to expect an MVP.


----------



## BlackNRed

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Someone doesn't understand how MVP voting works. It doesn't go to the best player in the leauge. If it did then LeBron should win it this year, Kobe should have three, and Shaq should have a helluva lot more than one. But it's not. The award goes to a top five player who has the best story, and at this point that is Derrick Rose.
> 
> Your dislike of Kobe has been pretty well documented so I'm not going to put a whole lot of effort into this. Kobe is a top five player (second, actually) has a top three record, and statistically is better than Rose. He absolutely has a chance, whether you like it or not.
> 
> Oh, and as for me omitting LeBron? There was no way that he was going to win MVP this year unless the Heat won 70. Whether I believe that the criteria is factual is irrelavent. The fact that the Heat have the sixth beat record in the leauge and that LeBron's stats are down further diminish LeBron's chances. He's not going to win it even though he's the best player in the leauge. It's a broken system but it's the system that we have to deal with.
> 
> Oh, and your "following me around in every thread, attacking my post and then never coming up with a counter argument" shtick is getting old.


Kobe would be lucky to be considered top 5. He's certainly not 2! He's certainly not better than Wade or Howard this year.

See if you're going to make an argument for Kobe you have to have something to fall back on.

The only thing you said that I agree with is that they give the MVP to the biggest story, or whom the media chooses to make the biggest story of, that's Rose. He probably doesn't deserve it, but what's that got to do with Kobe?

How many times does Wade have to school Kobe before you take off your Purple glasses and realize the former greatest SG has been surpassed by the current greatest. Kobe will never be better than Wade for the rest of his career, sucks dunnit? Wade averages *more points on 185 LESS field goal attempts.*


----------



## @GeorgeForeman_3

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

1 Rose. 2. Chris Paul. 3. Westbrook. 4. Howard. 5 Wade


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Westbrook has been great...but there's no way he's ahead of Howard. Howard is ballin'. He's upped his game.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Heated said:


> Kobe would be lucky to be considered top 5. He's certainly not 2! He's certainly not better than Wade or Howard this year.
> 
> See if you're going to make an argument for Kobe you have to have something to fall back on.
> 
> The only thing you said that I agree with is that they give the MVP to the biggest story, or whom the media chooses to make the biggest story of, that's Rose. He probably doesn't deserve it, but what's that got to do with Kobe?
> 
> How many times does Wade have to school Kobe before you take off your Purple glasses and realize the former greatest SG has been surpassed by the current greatest. Kobe will never be better than Wade for the rest of his career, sucks dunnit? Wade averages *more points on 185 LESS field goal attempts.*


Try and name five players better than Kobe. You can't. Kobe, Wade, and Howard all have a case for the number two spot behind 'Bron. I'm not going to argue something that depends on preference and circumstance more than anything.

I do have something to fall back on. He's a top five player on the second best team (record wise) in the league. He's the best player on a team that is considered the favorites to win the championship while being better statistically then the leading MVP canidate. If that's not a case (especially considering that Lebron and Wade are essentially eliminated from the race.) then I don't know what is. And for your information I'm backing Dwight as MVP, not Kobe. I simply said that Kobe had a chance at it.

The only point where I'd say Wade edged Kobe during the tenure of their careers is the '09 regular season. Wade was nuts that year and doing things that had to be seen to believe. Granted, Kobe took back the crown by marching his way to the championship whilst Wade choked against a less than impressive Hawks squad.

First off, if you want to try and defend Wade over Kobe, be my guest. I have nothing against that (and while I personally have a differing opinion) but you trying to paint *anyone* else as a homer is asinine. Come on now.

At this point I would take Kobe for a few reasons. He's a better defender, he's a better closer, he manages the game better, and he is actually leading his team. Everything else is essentially a wash.

Again, I'm not going to sit here and argue with you between Kobe/Wade on who is better because I believe that the difference either way is nominal. Pretending that either one is head and shoulders above the other is ignorant. The only player in the league that is head and shoulders better than Kobe is LeBron.


----------



## 3pointgod

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

You have to understand the phrase Most Valuable player... In your pretty well constructed argument you said that Kobe was better than everyone. I have one thing to say to you about that....Truth. Yes he is the best but it's most valuable not best. Kobe has players around him, anyone who wins 5 titles does, so does LeBron. Derrick Rose, yes he has talent too don't get me wrong, but Noah and Boozer have missed a significant amount of games yet the Bulls still have the top record in the East. Lebron is playing in the Eastern Conference and so is Dwight... But with worse records and less significant injuries. I'm not saying he's the best player in the league, but Derrick Rose is the MVP!


----------



## 3pointgod

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Oh and by the way trying to name 5 players better than Kobe is impossible. There aren't five people who have ever picked up the round ball that are better than Kobe...


----------



## 3pointgod

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

You're right... definitely not five. I can't think of 2 maximum; Michael Jordan and maybe, maybe Earvin "Magic" Johnson. Other than that Kobe is right there All-Time... But we're talking MVP not greatest historical player. The one thing I love about Kobe, and don't get me wrong I hate Kobe, he takes the most difficult shots on average than any player I've ever seen.


----------



## Ben

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

^Wait, you think Kobe's the 3rd best player of all-time? Maybe even the 2nd?

:lol:


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



3pointgod said:


> You have to understand the phrase Most Valuable player... In your pretty well constructed argument you said that Kobe was better than everyone. I have one thing to say to you about that....Truth. Yes he is the best but it's most valuable not best. Kobe has players around him, anyone who wins 5 titles does, so does LeBron. Derrick Rose, yes he has talent too don't get me wrong, but Noah and Boozer have missed a significant amount of games yet the Bulls still have the top record in the East. Lebron is playing in the Eastern Conference and so is Dwight... But with worse records and less significant injuries. I'm not saying he's the best player in the league, but Derrick Rose is the MVP!


I actually said that Kobe was in the second tier with Dwight and Wade, but below LeBron. But whatever.

You're right; if the MVP award went to the best player in the league it would look a little like this-

2010: LeBron
2009: LeBron
2008: Kobe
2007: Kobe
2006: Kobe
2005: Shaq/Duncan?
2004: Garnett 
2003: Duncan
2002: Duncan
2001: Shaq
2000: Shaq

That being said Derrick Rose has had an amazing season; he's superceeded all of our expectations and has been the best point guard in the league this year. But the Bulls have the best record in the leauge because of their defense, and Rose is a far cry from their best defender. He's a point guard that is leading an extremely average offensive unit and is doing so on mediocore efficiency. That's not downplaying his role on the team, they obviously need him to go out and hit shots (much like the Lakers/Kobe) and 25/4/8 isn't anything to sniff at. But at the end of the day I don't believe that the MVP should go to someone that isn't a top five player, and Rose is not.

And because of the fact that we live in a broken system, and LeBron/Wade cannot and will not be taken seriously in the mind's of the voters, then it comes down (to me) to Dwight and Kobe. I'm giving the edge to Howard at the moment.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



ßen said:


> ^Wait, you think Kobe's the 3rd best player of all-time? Maybe even the 2nd?
> 
> :lol:


I mean, Kobe *is* the third best guard of all time. Maybe he wasn't paying attention to what he was writing. He is top eight though, no doubt.


----------



## Ben

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> I mean, Kobe *is* the third best guard of all time. Maybe he wasn't paying attention to what he was writing. He is top eight though, no doubt.


I won't argue that, I agree with you, but I just wanted to clarify whether he meant what he typed.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Gotcha.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



3pointgod said:


> You have to understand the phrase Most Valuable player... In your pretty well constructed argument you said that Kobe was better than everyone. I have one thing to say to you about that....Truth. Yes he is the best but it's most valuable not best. Kobe has players around him, anyone who wins 5 titles does, so does LeBron. Derrick Rose, yes he has talent too don't get me wrong, but Noah and Boozer have missed a significant amount of games yet the Bulls still have the top record in the East. Lebron is playing in the Eastern Conference and so is Dwight... But with worse records and less significant injuries. I'm not saying he's the best player in the league, but Derrick Rose is the MVP!


Noah and Boozer never missed at the same time. And the Bulls have a lot of depth at their positions. Taj Gibson and Kurt Thomas both filled in ably for both of them.

Luol Deng is more important and irreplacable than Noah or Deng, and he was never out.

Conversley the Heat have had Wade, Bosh, Lebron, Miller, Haslem, and Chalmers all out at different points. And Z even. That's all of their top 8 players. They would be in first place in the East if they hadn't had that stretch where Bosh, Lebron, and Wade were all trading being out. They lost all the games Lebron was gone. Lost two of the games Wade was gone. And lost I think two games when Bosh was gone. You get rid of those and the Heat have a comfortable lead for first place in the East right now.

So don't talk to me about Bulls injuries. You guys have been lucky that for the most part the only injuries you had were Noah and Boozer--and neither were at the same time.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> That being said Derrick Rose has had an amazing season; he's superceeded all of our expectations and has been the best point guard in the league this year. But the Bulls have the best record in the leauge because of their defense, and Rose is a far cry from their best defender. He's a point guard that is leading an extremely average offensive unit and is doing so on mediocore efficiency. That's not downplaying his role on the team, they obviously need him to go out and hit shots (much like the Lakers/Kobe) and 25/4/8 isn't anything to sniff at. But at the end of the day I don't believe that the MVP should go to someone that isn't a top five player, and Rose is not.


The Bulls have basically the same record as the Lakers. And Kobe has had a better season than Rose has. Which is probably more impressive given his age, than Rose's given his. Entire difference is expectations.

And I would say the Bynum-Noah injuries cancel each other out.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> So don't talk to me about Bulls injuries.* You guys have been lucky that for the most part* the only injuries you had were Noah and Boozer--and neither were at the same time.


LOL...okay.


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Noah and Boozer never missed at the same time. And the Bulls have a lot of depth at their positions. Taj Gibson and Kurt Thomas both filled in ably for both of them.
> 
> Luol Deng is more important and irreplacable than Noah or Deng, and he was never out.
> 
> Conversley the Heat have had Wade, Bosh, Lebron, Miller, Haslem, and Chalmers all out at different points. And Z even. That's all of their top 8 players. They would be in first place in the East if they hadn't had that stretch where Bosh, Lebron, and Wade were all trading being out. They lost all the games Lebron was gone. Lost two of the games Wade was gone. And lost I think two games when Bosh was gone. You get rid of those and the Heat have a comfortable lead for first place in the East right now.
> 
> So don't talk to me about Bulls injuries. You guys have been lucky that for the most part the only injuries you had were Noah and Boozer--and neither were at the same time.


By the same token, if the Bulls hadn't lost the games they lost with Boozer/Noah out, they'd also have a better record. This isn't a game of "what if".


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Basel said:


> This isn't a game of "what if".


I agree. That was precisely my point.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> I agree. That was precisely my point.


Haters gonna hate, stop being so anti-Rose/Bulls. He's going to get the MVP, and your Heat are going to see a nice show while Lebron chokes once again, if they get that far.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

and yes, there has been a time when boozer and noah have been out at the same time. and the bulls still won.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> Haters gonna hate, stop being so anti-Rose/Bulls. * He's going to get the MVP*,


That's been pretty obvious for since the all-star break pretty much.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Guys I've got a suggestion for the NBA. Tell me if you think this is a good idea. 

The NBA has the defensive player of the year award, well I was thinking the NBA should create a new award, and make it the offensive player of the year award. While still maintaining the MVP award. 

Also the MVP award should definitely still be the crescendo award.

The years Nash was awarded the MVP, maybe the offensive player of the year award would of been more suitable. Especially when you consider how bad Nash is defensively. The MVP award seems to be negated from players who are great defensively, because the DPOTYA exists. So let's have an OPOTYA as well, and the MVP winner will be a great two way player. 

Just my two coppers..

The suggestion box is always open.

GO!


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Derrick Rose is going to have the only youngest player ever historical achievement that really only matters, when he wins' the MVP. All those other youngest to achievements fall way below the MVP award.


----------



## Ben

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Guys I've got a suggestion for the NBA. Tell me if you think this is a good idea.
> 
> The NBA has the defensive player of the year award, well I was thinking the NBA should create a new award, and make it the offensive player of the year award. While still maintaining the MVP award.
> 
> Also the MVP award should definitely still be the crescendo award.
> 
> The years Nash was awarded the MVP, maybe the offensive player of the year award would of been more suitable. Especially when you consider how bad Nash is defensively. The MVP award seems to be negated from players who are great defensively, because the DPOTYA exists. So let's have an OPOTYA as well, and the MVP winner will be a great two way player.
> 
> Just my two coppers..
> 
> The suggestion box is always open.
> 
> GO!


Yeah lets do it. PM David Stern and sort it.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Dwight should definitely win it this year.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Heated said:


> Kobe? You're a homer on cracK. By the way I love how you said Lebron is the best player in the world in your previous post and then don't even list him as a top 3 MVP candidate? :laugh: C'Mon Man...


Maybe this will help enlighten you, young grasshopper: *please name the last MVP Award winner that played alongside another Top-4 player in the NBA. *


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



PauloCatarino said:


> Maybe this will help enlighten you, young grasshopper: *please name the last MVP Award winner that played alongside another Top-4 player in the NBA. *


Snaquille, Magic, Jordan, Bird, Russell....


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Hyperion said:


> Snaquille, Magic, Jordan, Bird, Russell....


Please explain, Eager Bunny...


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



PauloCatarino said:


> Please explain, Eager Bunny...


Jordan had Pippen (you know he was one of the best of all time)
Shaq had Kobe (who was All NBA 2nd team that year behind two HOFers)
Magic had Worthy, Kareem, and Scott (not one but two different HOF players playing beside him)
Russell, well cmon. That Celtics team was more stacked than any team in the history of the NBA.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Hyperion said:


> Jordan had Pippen (you know he was one of the best of all time)


Scottie Pippen, at all times in his career, was NEVER a Top-5 player in the NBA. Never! Freaking ugly man!



> Shaq had Kobe (who was All NBA 2nd team that year behind two HOFers)


In the 1999-2000 season, Kobe Bryant was far from a Top-5 player in the league (Malone, Duncan, KG, Payton, Iverson, Webber...)



> Magic had Worthy, Kareem, and Scott (not one but two different HOF players playing beside him)


Magic's first MVP was in the 1986-87 season. Nor KAJ nor the others were top-5 players. Worthy's max, IIRC, was third-team All-Nba... And that douchebag Scott? Nope.



> Russell, well cmon. That Celtics team was more stacked than any team in the history of the NBA.


MAYBE Russell played with one other Top-5 player in Cousy when he won the first MVP. Later, there was Pettit, Baylor, West, Oscar and Wilt...

Holla back.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Really? Not even in 1993-94? 
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1994.html#mvp

Your argument now isn't the quality of the teammate, but the quality of the league. Yes, the league does not have as much talent as back then. That still doesn't mean that MVP players didn't have top flight talent. Last I checked, Kobe's numbers were top in the league for SGs and overall.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Hyperion said:


> Really? Not even in 1993-94?
> http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_1994.html#mvp
> 
> Your argument now isn't the quality of the teammate, but the quality of the league. Yes, the league does not have as much talent as back then. That still doesn't mean that MVP players didn't have top flight talent. Last I checked, Kobe's numbers were top in the league for SGs and overall.


Not even then.
In the 1993-94 season Hakeem, D-Rob, Shaq, P-Ew, Malone and Barkley were clearly better than the Ugly Mug.


----------



## S.jR.

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Lol some how it's more impressive to earn MVP with more experience at an age I'm sure others have done it compared to doing it at an age nobody has (with less experience)? (or at least I think so)


----------



## Dre

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



S.jR. said:


> Lol some how it's more impressive to earn MVP with more experience at an age I'm sure others have done it compared to doing it at an age nobody has (with less experience)? (or at least I think so)


I'm not sure what that means

Anyway...if Rose wins it this year I'm trying to figure out why he won't end up winning it next year too. I don't think enough will change with the top candidates barring a major injury somewhere.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

The second three peat the Bulls had the best player in the game, and another top five guy. That's pretty undeniable. Pippen was a beast in the second three peat.


----------



## S.jR.

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dre said:


> I'm not sure what that means
> 
> Anyway...if Rose wins it this year I'm trying to figure out why he won't end up winning it next year too. I don't think enough will change with the top candidates barring a major injury somewhere.


Oh that it's more impressive to win the MVP at age 32 than 22. When a handful have won it at that age or older but none at 22. 

I see what you mean, I suppose the same could have been said for Lebron (like he should win a slew of them in a row for a long time), but things change, players get better? Injuries happen? Players change teams? Fans, Media, People's perception on players change.. But it could be a definite back and forth if Rose and Howard continue to work on their games as they have.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



PauloCatarino said:


> Scottie Pippen, at all times in his career, was NEVER a Top-5 player in the NBA. Never! Freaking ugly man!


Saying Pippen was NEVER a top 5 player is kinda silly. This is one of those things where, regardless of your interpretation of the top 5 for each individual year, Pippen was always close enough to the top 5 for it to not matter. You don't think he was ever top 5? but even you would probably admit that he was always top 10. So whats the difference? You can argue about this guy or that guy but Pippen was right there with anyone. And almost always the best at his position in the NBA.

He was an all time great, a no-brainer hall of famer. And I have always said that if I was buiding an all-time starting 5, and really building that team to win, (IE: not just trying to pick the best player at each position) then Pippen would be a lock at the starting SF spot.

He was probably the greatest Perimiter defender of all time, and to go along with that he was an extremely versatile offensive player, and a pure winner. True All time great.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dre said:


> I'm not sure what that means
> 
> Anyway...if Rose wins it this year I'm trying to figure out why he won't end up winning it next year too. I don't think enough will change with the top candidates barring a major injury somewhere.


He would need to have happen what happened to Nash--where the Bulls just suffer catastrophic injuries where for the whole season it's just Rose, Bogans, Taj Gibson, that Osik guy, and someone from the NBDL--and they would need to finish in the top 4 again.

Otherwise I think it would be hard for him to better this season, because most of the justification for him winning it has to do with the Bulls record, and not really his actual play. And you can't do better than first. So I don't know if they'd win the expectations game next year. It would be easier for Howard or Durant to win it next year I think. Particularly Durant if they can win the West. He'd be leading the league in scoring, and have the top team in one of the conferences. Usually that's a tried and true method for winning the MVP.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Otherwise I think it would be hard for him to better this season, because most of the justification for him winning it has to do with the Bulls record, and not really his actual play. And you can't do better than first. So I don't know if they'd win the expectations game next year. It would be easier for Howard or Durant to win it next year I think. Particularly Durant if they can win the West. He'd be leading the league in scoring, and have the top team in one of the conferences. Usually that's a tried and true method for winning the MVP.


Sorry, but a lot of it *does* have to do with his actual play. 

I know it's hard to remember back to the beginning of the season because it was so long ago, but a lot of people thought Rose was going to have a similar season than last year with little to no improvement, and some even expected a down season. Remember, people thought Rose being better than Chris Bosh was ridiculous, a claim that is laughable now. And some even expected Brandon Jennings to have a better season (and if I'm not mistaken some predicted Jennings would have a better career). Another absurd claim that is looking worse each day.

Many Bulls fans even expected only slight improvements from Rose, thinking it would be his fourth year for things to really start going right. What Rose has done this year, is exceed expectations. Now that's not something that should win you MVP alone, but to say that the justification for him winning is not his actual play is to directly ignore how much better he's gotten from last year.

A lot of people forget that the reason the Bulls have improved leaps and bounds as a team starts with Rose. The reason Deng is having the season he's having starts with Rose, his main practice and shoot around buddy. Their chemistry on the court is a direct correlation to their work off the court. It's why Deng, after many seasons of subpar play or disappointment, is having the year he's having. Rose has been Deng's biggest benefactor.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

When do the Rose vs. Jordan debates start?


----------



## King Joseus

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> When do the Rose vs. Jordan debates start?


Six or seven championships from now.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Derrick Rose is Allen Iverson without the folkhero mythology.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Derrick Rose is Allen Iverson without the folkhero mythology.


Rose and Iverson are about as similar as Tim Duncan and Karl Malone.

Sure they are/were great players than play the same position, and perhaps even put up similarly big numbers...but watch the games already. They play nothing alike. Heck, their numbers aren't even that similar for all the stat junkies out there. 

Apologies if I missed a joke somewhere.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



yodurk said:


> Rose and Iverson are about as similar as Tim Duncan and Karl Malone.
> 
> Sure they are/were great players than play the same position, and perhaps even put up similarly big numbers...but watch the games already. They play nothing alike. Heck, their numbers aren't even that similar for all the stat junkies out there.
> 
> Apologies if I missed a joke somewhere.


I was alluding to inefficient chucker/sole offensive weapon/of Finals level defensive oriented team that outdoes preseason expectations to get voter support for MVP in conjunction with voter fatigure for voting for any of two more legitimate choices.

At least with Iverson he did something statistically remarkable enough to fool yourself into thinking he was the right vote. Rose has the same stats as Westbrook, and his team is only a few games better. And yet Westbrook probably won't get a single MVP vote. But Rose will win the damn thing.

Even though: 
1. He's not on the best team in the NBA.
2. He is not leading the NBA in any major statistical category.
3. Most of the advanced stats models show someone else not Rose should win it.
4. The things he impacts while significant for his team's success are not the most important.

Rose for MVP is complete media hype. I mean take that Bucks game for example. They came back and it's because Rose played great. Yeah he scored their points. But the 16-4 run they went on...if they don't play amazing defense then what Rose does doesn't matter because it's a 16-10 run instead.

The reason they win games is rebounding and defense. Two things that Rose doesn't really impact. And two things that were not really affected by their injuries.

In fact, the whole injury thing is a joke, because relative to every other top team the Bulls were probably the healthiest. Besides the games Noah and Boozer missed, no one else on their team really missed that many games. Meanwhile Boston has basically played the last month with no center at all. San Antonio has had Parker, Manu, and Duncan in and out of the lineup. The lakers have missed Bynum and others. The Heat have never had their entire team roster at any single point this season. The Magic have had their share of injuries and suspensions.

If you want to talk about who is most valuable to what their team does, the answer this season is most obviously Dwight Howard. He impacts every aspect of the things which make the Magic good. And their record is close enough to the Bulls that it's not much to argue there. Especially since the talent around Howard is much less than around Rose. There is no one on the Magic on the level of a Noah, Deng, or Boozer. Jameer Nelson is Keith Bogans level, and that's probably their second best player most nights.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Good post. It's sad because Rose is so likeable and a big reason why I hate to see him win is because it puts him in a position to fail. MVP is out of his league and it would be a shame for him to be considered a disappointment because the media built him up to be something he wasn't in the first place.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Future, would it make you feel better if they named the award, "Most Exciting/Best Storied/Top Ten Player in the League Award". I mean, everyone seems to know what the award means but you seem so damn sensitive about it. Yeah, if I was a Magic fan, I would be mad that Howard didn't have a couple already. Calling Rose a chucker is a joke. His FG% is down this year compared to the last two because of increased 3-point attempts. I agree he should take a couple less 3s, and he drives WAY more when facing a tough opponent, and seems to settle vs. lesser opponents. Bottom line is he doesn't care about stats and does what it takes to win, sometimes exerting less energy when its needed less. Lebron seems to thrive on dominating the stat lines no matter what the game position is. This is not baseball, what you do in the last few shots in the game is much more important that what you did in the rest of the game, so these advanced statistics aren't as relevent as you think. Rose was a state champ, college final 4 player, he knows how to win.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Good post. It's sad because Rose is so likeable and a big reason why I hate to see him win is because it puts him in a position to fail. MVP is out of his league and it would be a shame for him to be considered a disappointment because the media built him up to be something he wasn't in the first place.


Exactly. And I'm not mad at Rose. Not hatin' the player. Hatin' on the game. Just like with Steve Nash. Look at Durant this year. He got all this media love in the summer, and so much hype that somehow the very excellent season he and the Thunder have had, has been completely unappreciated. I mean has someone ever led the league in scoring with less fan fair?


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> Future, would it make you feel better if they named the award, "Most Exciting/Best Storied/Top Ten Player in the League Award". I mean, everyone seems to know what the award means but you seem so damn sensitive about it.


Ha. I'm definitely not the only one. There are many many articles and blog posts out there right now that are arguing the same things I am. It's just not he mainstream guys on TV. Those guys annointed Rose MVP two weeks ago, and have completely ignored what Dwight Howard has been doing down in Orlando.

I mean it kind of sucks for Magic fans because Howard by all rights should win the DPOTY AND MVP. Which would be truly historic. And unlike Rose's MVP at 22 achievement--wouldn't be a sham.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> Lebron seems to thrive on dominating the stat lines no matter what the game position is. This is not baseball, what you do in the last few shots in the game is much more important that what you did in the rest of the game, so these advanced statistics aren't as relevent as you think. Rose was a state champ, college final 4 player, he knows how to win.


Oh and what does this even mean? What you do in the last few shots of some random game are more important than what you did the entire rest of the game? That's nonesense talk. And you say it as if Rose is even the most effective player on the last few shots of any given game. Prove it.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

At the pace the Lakers are at right now, Kobe may very well win the award.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Exactly. And I'm not mad at Rose. Not hatin' the player. Hatin' on the game. Just like with Steve Nash. Look at Durant this year. He got all this media love in the summer, and so much hype that somehow the very excellent season he and the Thunder have had, has been completely unappreciated. I mean has someone ever led the league in scoring with less fan fair?


With Durant, he hasn't even played as well as last year, so it's hard to praise him too much for a step sideways type of season. Some of that is because Westbrook is handling the ball more, and sometimes he just looks tired and has had more bad shooting nights this year.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> At the pace the Lakers are at right now, Kobe may very well win the award.


Could live with that. It would make up for the MVPs he didn't get that he deserved. I still think Dwight Howard has the best case. And I say that as someone who hates the magic, and to an extent Howard.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

How about we stop looking at the numbers and watch the actual games? Rose and Howard are the two players who impact their teams the most. I give Rose the nod because of team record. Rose is like Kobe, where the numbers don't exactly tell the impact they have. Rose and Kobe both create their own shots to create offense while guys like Westbrook, Wade, LBJ rely on drawing fouls, which isn't as effective in end of game situations. I'm paraphrasing what *Coldfish*, a poster on another Bulls forum, said and I fully agree with what he says, though I do think Wade can create his own shot better than he is being credited:



> If you look at the advanced stats on guys like Rose and Kobe, they say that both of them are overrated. We have all heard the reasons why. Low scoring efficiency being the first. However, the Kobe and Rose supporters will always just say "watch the games" and when you watch the games, Rose and Kobe look like cold blooded killers who are controlling the games and winning them.
> 
> Why the difference?
> 
> Well, the topic of free throws is a common one. Guys like Lebron, Westbrook, Wade, etc. get to the line a ton where Rose and Kobe do, but not as much and its not the centerpiece of their games. By getting to the line, you avoid having to take low percentage shots and replace them with high percentage free throws. Its pretty obvious that in general a foul drawn is better than a shot taken.
> 
> However, this is where you have to watch the games.
> 
> Rose and Kobe share a trait. They have the ability to create their own shot. With guys like Westbrook, Lebron and Wade, they basically rely on barreling into the defense and having the refs blow their whistles. All NBA fans know that late in games and in the playoffs, the refs are far less likely to do so. It becomes a different game. Basically, the biggest advantage that the "drive and flail" players have over Rose and Kobe is negated when the game is on the line.
> 
> So, bash away here, but I'm going to say that:
> 
> - Wade, Lebron, Westbrook, etc. all have games suited for the first 3.5 quarters of a regular season game
> - Kobe and Rose have games suited for the last half of the 4th and the playoffs, which is the part that really matters.


Another point I'd like to make is that the Bulls are built for defense so the Bulls might win games because of defense, but they also start a bunch of defensive players so a lot of the offensive burden is on Rose and hence the high shot total. Think about it, Rose has started every game this season with Bogans(not known for offense) and Deng(he's got a nice offensive game, but you can't expect him to carry a team on that side of the court, he's more reliable on the other end). The other options Boozer(the only other offensive threat in the starting lineup) and Noah(though he can score here and there, he definitely shouldn't be relied upon) have missed a significant amount of games and have been replaced with defensive guys: Gibson(defensive player, not much of an offensive game) and Thomas(mid range jumper is about the only offense he has). So if you guys complain about the number of shots Rose takes, tell me who you would rather see take those shots?


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Do you have the stats that show that Rose is the best player in the final two minutes of the game? I'd like to see that.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Do you have the stats that show that Rose is the best player in the final two minutes of the game? I'd like to see that.


I'm not saying Rose is the best player in the final two minutes, but he has the best skill set for the final minutes of a game. Don't have numbers but I have a video of his latest game against Milwaukee. 4th quarter starts at 5:20 so you can decide when it's "clutch" time 




Basically, Rose is capable of creating his own shot, like Kobe, in crunch time and doesn't need to constantly drive to the basket and hope to get fouled. I may be wrong, but I dont remember LBJ taking over a game at the end by creating his own shot too often. I know Wade can, but haven't seen LBJ or Westbrook do it.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I'll see your Bucks, and raise you a trailblazers:





He creates his shot all over the Blazers in a come from behind victory. Hitting the huge 3s to bring them back in the final 2 minutes of regulation, and then the shot to seal the deal in overtime.


----------



## atz

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



P to the Wee said:


> How about we stop looking at the numbers and watch the actual games? Rose and Howard are the two players who impact their teams the most. I give Rose the nod because of team record. Rose is like Kobe, where the numbers don't exactly tell the impact they have. Rose and Kobe both create their own shots to create offense while guys like Westbrook, Wade, LBJ rely on drawing fouls, which isn't as effective in end of game situations. I'm paraphrasing what *Coldfish*, a poster on another Bulls forum, said and I fully agree with what he says, though I do think Wade can create his own shot better than he is being credited:
> 
> 
> 
> Another point I'd like to make is that the Bulls are built for defense so the Bulls might win games because of defense, but they also start a bunch of defensive players so a lot of the offensive burden is on Rose and hence the high shot total. Think about it, Rose has started every game this season with Bogans(not known for offense) and Deng(he's got a nice offensive game, but you can't expect him to carry a team on that side of the court, he's more reliable on the other end). The other options Boozer(the only other offensive threat in the starting lineup) and Noah(though he can score here and there, he definitely shouldn't be relied upon) have missed a significant amount of games and have been replaced with defensive guys: Gibson(defensive player, not much of an offensive game) and Thomas(mid range jumper is about the only offense he has). So if you guys complain about the number of shots Rose takes, tell me who you would rather see take those shots?


What on earth are you talking about? Where is this "Lebron doesn't show up in the playoffs or 4th quarter" coming from? Because it seems to be the gospel Lebron haters currently are preaching about.

I already questioned about it in a previous thread: http://www.basketballforum.com/nba-forum/455314-derrick-rose-top-five-player-3.html#post6532462

...but no-one bothered to answer. So i'll post the links again:

http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

So apparently Lebron does show up in the last 5 minutes, but it's the last 2 that matter... It's basically he and Kobe 1-2 through the last four years but of course Kobe is clutch and Lebron just freezes when it matters.


http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/playoffs.htm
http://www.82games.com/0708/playoffs/playoffs.htm
http://www.82games.com/0607/playoffs/playoffs.htm

Likewise in the playoffs. Pretty good for a guy who's only good for regular season games.

Of course they don't have the stats for last year's playoffs, but just can't see how you can make the generalization that Lebron chokes in the playoffs or the 4th quarter.

But let me guess: The super talented Cavs failed to win so Lebron is a loser. I mean he hasn't even lead a team to a final four appearence :whatever: 

...it's usually that or I have to go and watch some games. It's the easiest just to ignore the facts (=stats) and just base your opinion on the visual evidence, which leaves no ground for biases or anything.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> Saying Pippen was NEVER a top 5 player is kinda silly. This is one of those things where, regardless of your interpretation of the top 5 for each individual year, Pippen was always close enough to the top 5 for it to not matter. You don't think he was ever top 5? but even you would probably admit that he was always top 10. So whats the difference? You can argue about this guy or that guy but Pippen was right there with anyone. And almost always the best at his position in the NBA.
> 
> He was an all time great, a no-brainer hall of famer. And I have always said that if I was buiding an all-time starting 5, and really building that team to win, (IE: not just trying to pick the best player at each position) then Pippen would be a lock at the starting SF spot.
> 
> He was probably the greatest Perimiter defender of all time, and to go along with that he was an extremely versatile offensive player, and a pure winner. True All time great.


I wasn't dissing Scottie Pippen, _per se_. 
It all began when a Lebron jocker was trying to make a case for James's having a shot at the MVP award. I asked who was the last MVP winner who played with another top-5 player...
And so on and so on...

BTW, Pippen is one of the most overrated players of all time.
And, yes, David Lee > Scottie Pippen!


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

That's the dumbest thing you've ever said Paulo...Congratulations, it's quite an accomplishment.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

The Lakers crush the Mavericks and Kobe plays well. He's still got a shot.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Kobe has been a monster lately.

I have to agree with a few of the posters here though, statistics, and advanced stats are becoming absurd. I'll take Kobe > anyone in the NBA in the last 5 minutes of a game. His stats don't even back him up being the best, but if you watch the games, you know Kobe is better than anyone in the NBA at the end of games.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Also Rose rocking that MVP and has been putting up some monster games to end the regular season. The kid just gets better, and better with each passing game.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Diable said:


> *That's the dumbest thing you've ever said Paulo...*Congratulations, it's quite an accomplishment.


What was that?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> The Lakers crush the Mavericks and Kobe plays well. He's still got a shot.


It's absurd that he only has one MVP to his name. I'd be glad to see him win it this year, even if it's only by default because there is no clear cut winner.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> I was alluding to inefficient chucker/sole offensive weapon/of Finals level defensive oriented team that outdoes preseason expectations to get voter support for MVP in conjunction with voter fatigure for voting for any of two more legitimate choices.
> 
> At least with Iverson he did something statistically remarkable enough to fool yourself into thinking he was the right vote. Rose has the same stats as Westbrook, and his team is only a few games better. And yet Westbrook probably won't get a single MVP vote. But Rose will win the damn thing.
> 
> Even though:
> 1. He's not on the best team in the NBA.
> 2. He is not leading the NBA in any major statistical category.
> 3. Most of the advanced stats models show someone else not Rose should win it.
> 4. The things he impacts while significant for his team's success are not the most important.
> 
> Rose for MVP is complete media hype. I mean take that Bucks game for example. They came back and it's because Rose played great. Yeah he scored their points. But the 16-4 run they went on...if they don't play amazing defense then what Rose does doesn't matter because it's a 16-10 run instead.
> 
> The reason they win games is rebounding and defense. Two things that Rose doesn't really impact. And two things that were not really affected by their injuries.
> 
> In fact, the whole injury thing is a joke, because relative to every other top team the Bulls were probably the healthiest. Besides the games Noah and Boozer missed, no one else on their team really missed that many games. Meanwhile Boston has basically played the last month with no center at all. San Antonio has had Parker, Manu, and Duncan in and out of the lineup. The lakers have missed Bynum and others. The Heat have never had their entire team roster at any single point this season. The Magic have had their share of injuries and suspensions.
> 
> If you want to talk about who is most valuable to what their team does, the answer this season is most obviously Dwight Howard. He impacts every aspect of the things which make the Magic good. And their record is close enough to the Bulls that it's not much to argue there. Especially since the talent around Howard is much less than around Rose. There is no one on the Magic on the level of a Noah, Deng, or Boozer. Jameer Nelson is Keith Bogans level, and that's probably their second best player most nights.


Well no offense but your arguement is way down low. And heres why. You talk about Rose stats in which he doesn't lead the nba in any stats in which that don't prove he shouldn't be mvp. If you look at his stats very closely it's improve better then last year with his ppg is up, apg, free throws, 3pt percentege have all improve in which it went up. And lets not forget that besides Boozer, Korver, Brewer, the bulls almost have the same roster from last year in which last year they were in 8th place under 500. Compare that last year to this year. And didn't Boozer start the season with the bulls in january? And did Boozer, Noah finally play together in more games after the allstar break? And man in 4th quarter when the game is on the line, Rose has been clutch alot of times in which example twice vs The Heat. You say the magic besides howard only has jameer? but forgot to mention hedo? lol. The same hedo that was really the one that help the magic elminated the cavs 2 years ago? And they also have jason richardson who's been a clutch shooter himself in which he's the same player that help the suns last year to compete with the lakers in the wcf. And when has howard has actually been clutch in late games? hmmmmm. And please when i read that some here say if Kobe wins it, nobody has a problem with it cause what he did so far this season? :laugh: Man look yes Bynum has been out alot but They still have Gasol who play every games this season i believe and is imo the 2nd best pf in the nba behind Dirk. And they still have Odom who's playing a career year and could win the 6th man of the year. Fisher is the same Fisher that is doing a very solid role and is the 2nd clutch shooter for the lakers behind Bryant. And the reason the lakers are having a great 2nd half of the season after the allstar break is not only cause of kobe, odom, it's mainly cause of bynum who is playing like the 2nd best center. And if Bynum stay healthy next year and Odom still playing an allstar level, the lakers could have 4 players in the allstar game in bryant, gasol, bynum, odom. The Lakers have alot of great talent on that roster besides kobe. So please enough with kobe should be mvp.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I always think it's funny when people so quickly dismiss statistics, but then value marginal differences in team records and head to head games. You do know that a final score in a basketball game is a statistic. People who say things like "people who watch the games don't need statistics..." should realize that that's basically the same as saying they shouldn't even keep score, just play 48 minutes and at the end we'll let people who "watched the game" decide who was the better team. Saying player X is better than player Y despite a huge disagreement in statistics would be like me saying the Heat beat the Bulls earlier this season despite the scoreboard saying otherwise. The stats/scoreboard said the Bulls won, but people who actually watched the game saw that the Heat were the winners because they play the better game (hypothetical). 

Or let's not keep standings. Let's just play 82 games, then at the end create seedings based on our own perceptions. 

People who dismiss individual statistics usually just don't like what the statistics have to say. Statistics are not the entire picture, but they are resources that you'd be a fool to ignore. They only give you a better look at what's going on on the basketball court every possession.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> It's absurd that he only has one MVP to his name. I'd be glad to see him win it this year, even if it's only by default because there is no clear cut winner.


Well i say Rose should be the mvp just by what he has done this year to the bulls team that was the 8th seed last year to the best record in the eastern conference this year. With Boozer been out alot of games and Noah been out 2 months, Rose still put his team on his back to keep winnings games after winning games. He has improve greatly this year with his points per game, assist per game, free throws %, 3 pt %. Nobody can't ignore it.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Well i say Rose should be the mvp just by what he has done this year to the bulls team that was the 8th seed last year to the best record in the eastern conference this year. With Boozer been out alot of games and Noah been out 2 months, Rose still put his team on his back to keep winnings games after winning games. He has improve greatly this year with his points per game, assist per game, free throws %, 3 pt %. Nobody can't ignore it.


Yet he has still only been marginally better than Russell Westbrook, who is nowhere near the MVP conversation. So that's that.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Well i say Rose should be the mvp just by what he has done this year to the bulls team that was the 8th seed last year to the best record in the eastern conference this year. With Boozer been out alot of games and Noah been out 2 months, Rose still put his team on his back to keep winnings games after winning games. He has improve greatly this year with his points per game, assist per game, free throws %, 3 pt %. Nobody can't ignore it.


The main reason The Bulls have improved is because of their defense(credit goes to Thibs) and the play of their bench, people need to stop putting the success of the Bulls on just Rose.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> The main reason The Bulls have improved is because of their defense(credit goes to Thibs) and the play of their bench, people need to stop putting the success of the Bulls on just Rose.


Yea of course the bulls improve their defense but it doesn't mean rose didn't help the bulls success. If that's the case the lebron shouldn't be mvp 2 times in a row cause it was the cavs defense that improved the cavs not just lebron that improve the cavs lol. And Rose is a very good pg defender his own right but i guess you think other wise.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Yea of course the bulls improve their defense but it doesn't mean rose didn't help the bulls success. If that's the case the lebron shouldn't be mvp 2 times in a row cause it was the cavs defense that improved the cavs not just lebron that improve the cavs lol. And Rose is a very good pg defender his own right but i guess you think other wise.


Lmao, Lebron's MVP seasons are not even comparable to Rose......

Anyway, I am not saying Rose didn't have a big part in their success, because he had, but he isn't the main reason why they are so good this year, it is because of their defense. Also Rose is an average defender at best at this stage of his career.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> Lmao, Lebron's MVP seasons are not even comparable to Rose......
> 
> Anyway, I am not saying Rose didn't have a big part in their success, because he has had, but he isn't the main reason why they are so good this year, it is because of their defense. Also Rose is *an average defender *at best at this stage of his career.


:laugh: If you say so


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> Lmao, Lebron's MVP seasons are not even comparable to Rose......
> 
> Anyway, I am not saying Rose didn't have a big part in their success, because he has had, but he isn't the main reason why they are so good this year, it is because of their defense. Also Rose is an average defender at best at this stage of his career.


Again if you keep saying about (the bulls defense) that is more a reason for their success then rose did for them then again the cavs defense last year is more of a reason their success then just lebron. And dude Rose is a very good pg defender. I've seen him play real good d on real good pg mainly Deron Williams who Rose was abusing.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Again if you keep saying about (the bulls defense) that is more a reason for their success then rose did for them then again the cavs defense last year is more of a reason their success then just lebron. And dude Rose is a very good pg defender. I've seen him play real good d on real good pg mainly Deron Williams who Rose was abusing.


It is not comparable, The Cavs defense played a part in them being good, but the main reason why they had the top record was because of Lebron, who played at an historic level the past two season. Rose has had a great year and is developing into one of the premier players in the league, not just PG. But really he hasn't been better then Howard, Lebron, Wade, Kobe, or even Durant this year and the numbers back that up, and he is not a very good defender, he has improved from being poor the past few years, but he is merely average.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Yea of course the bulls improve their defense but it doesn't mean rose didn't help the bulls success. If that's the case the lebron shouldn't be mvp 2 times in a row cause it was the cavs defense that improved the cavs not just lebron that improve the cavs lol. And Rose is a very good pg defender his own right but i guess you think other wise.


Guess who the Cavs best defender was last season? Guess who was runner up in DPOY? Whenever the Cavs needed a stop they put lebron on whoever--didn't matter if it was a point guard or a center. He did everything but sell the popcorn on that team. Why do you think their owner had a complete mental breakdown when Lebron left?


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Statistics are not the entire picture, but they are resources that you'd be a fool to ignore. They only give you a better look at what's going on on the basketball court every possession.


Exactly, this is why Rose is the MVP. His stats are a bit less than Lebron and Howard, but the fact that the Bulls are winning and especially vs winning teams(Heat-17-17 vs 500+ teams, Bulls-22-11) makes the difference.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> Exactly, this is why Rose is the MVP. His stats are a bit less than Lebron and Howard, but the fact that the Bulls are winning and especially vs winning teams(Heat-17-17 vs 500+ teams, Bulls-22-11) makes the difference.


If that is the case, then Bryant is the MVP, he has been statistically better then Rose, and his team has been on a tear, and the Lakers are 25-12 against playoff caliber teams this year.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> Exactly, this is why Rose is the MVP. His stats are a bit less than Lebron and Howard, but the fact that the Bulls are winning and especially vs winning teams(Heat-17-17 vs 500+ teams, Bulls-22-11) makes the difference.


I think you're understating the statistical difference. The difference between LeBron and Howard, and Rose, is about the same as the difference between Rose and Lamar Odom. That's a substantial gap. 

Either way, Kobe has better numbers and his team has the same record even though the Lakers have played a much more difficult schedule.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Guess who the Cavs best defender was last season? Guess who was runner up in DPOY? Whenever the Cavs needed a stop they put lebron on whoever--didn't matter if it was a point guard or a center. He did everything but sell the popcorn on that team. Why do you think their owner had a complete mental breakdown when Lebron left?


You don't think the bulls owner will have a mental breakdown if Rose leaves? lol come on man seriously. The cavs defense last year was great cause of Anderson, Hickson, West and even Shaq for some part. Lebron was consider a dpoy mainly cause of his block shots that's mainly from behind. Lebron is a real good defender but not a great one. <<,And you talking to a huge lebron fan in me in which i'm being honest.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> It is not comparable, The Cavs defense played a part in them being good, but the main reason why they had the top record was because of Lebron, who played at an historic level the past two season. Rose has had a great year and is developing into one of the premier players in the league, not just PG. But really he hasn't been better then *Howard, Lebron, Wade, Kobe, or even Durant this year and the numbers back that up,* and he is not a very good defender, he has improved from being poor the past few years, but he is merely average.


His numbers might not back it up but besides Howard. Even though Kobe, Lebron, Durant, Wade stats are yea better then Rose this year but guess what? Rose don't have another great player on his team and don't have a roster with alot of talents like with Kobe on the lakers with Gasol, Odom and Bynum (when he plays). Lebron with the heat. Wade with Lebron on the same team also with Bosh. And Durant with Westbrook. Yea you can make a case with Howard but even though his stats are great, his team are in 4th place and are like what 9 games back from 1st place? Why else Kg didn't win mvp in 08 of his first year with the celtics when they had the best record in the nba? Why Shaq only won 1 mvp?


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> His numbers might not back it up but besides Howard. Even though Kobe, Lebron, Durant, Wade stats are yea better then Rose this year but guess what? Rose don't have another great player on his team and don't have a roster with alot of talents like with Kobe on the lakers with Gasol, Odom and Bynum (when he plays). Lebron with the heat. Wade with Lebron on the same team also with Bosh. And Durant with Westbrook. Yea you can make a case with Howard but even though his stats are great, his team are in 4th place and are like what 9 games back from 1st place? Why else Kg didn't win mvp in 08 of his first year with the celtics when they had the best record in the nba? Why Shaq only won 1 mvp?


Rose has a better supporting cast then you think, he has Boozer, Noah, and Deng. Korver off the bench, it is not like Rose is playing with scrubs.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> Rose has a better good supporting cast then you think, he has *Boozer, Noah, and Deng.* Korver off the bench, it is not like Rose is playing with scrubs.


Cool but guess what? Boozer started the season with the bulls in january i believe. The same january that Noah was out until he return after the allstar break in which after the allstar break, Boozer and Noah finally play together for more then few games. But since both were out in seperate, bulls were winning games alot in which mainly cause of rose. Yea the bulls have defense and? The Bulls have a good supporting cast but it isn't better then the lakers supporting cast that's easily for sure. The heat got 3 superstars. The thunder got 2 superstars and real good supporting cast in their own right.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> Rose has a better good supporting cast then you think, he has *Boozer, Noah, and Deng. Korver *off the bench, it is not like Rose is playing with scrubs.


Oh and i want to tell you why i think the lakers have a way better supporting cast. First Noah, is he better then Bynum? Is Boozer better then Gasol? You can say Deng over Artest but Artest is better 1 on 1 defender. Who you think is better coming off the bench? Korver? or Brown? Who's also better coming off the bench Gibson? or Odom? hmmm.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Cool but guess what? Boozer started the season with the bulls in january i believe. The same january that Noah was out until he return after the allstar break in which after the allstar break, Boozer and Noah finally play together for more then few games. But since both were out in seperate, bulls were winning games alot in which mainly cause of rose. Yea the bulls have defense and? The Bulls have a good supporting cast but it isn't better then the lakers supporting cast that's easily for sure. The heat got 3 superstars. The thunder got 2 superstars and real good supporting cast in their own right.


Fine, if you want to use he is the most valuable player to his team criteria then Howard wins this award in a landslide, ether way Rose shouldn't win the award, even though he will.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> Fine, if you want to use he is the most valuable player to his team criteria then Howard wins this award in a landslide, ether way Rose shouldn't win the award, even though he will.


It would be a "landslide" if the magic had the 2nd or 1st best record in the eastern conference. But they are in 4th place in which i don't recall an nba player winning the mvp in 4th place in either the west or east.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Wait so why isn't Kobe the MVP by the logic of Rose MVPhiles?


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Wait so why isn't Kobe the MVP by the logic of Rose MVPhiles?


because the Lakers are SUPPOSED to be good. The Bulls aren't supposed to be good with three top 5 draft picks and a max contract PF in their starting lineup.


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Hyperion said:


> because the Lakers are SUPPOSED to be good. The Bulls aren't supposed to be good with three top 5 draft picks and a max contract PF in their starting lineup.


Great (and funny) post. It's funny because it's so true.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> It would be a "landslide" if the magic had the 2nd or 1st best record in the eastern conference. But they are in 4th place in which i don't recall an nba player winning the mvp in 4th place in either the west or east.


Ok, so we are going with the best player on best team? Then give the award to Kobe, ether way you look at it Rose shouldn't be the leading candidate.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Hyperion said:


> because the Lakers are SUPPOSED to be good. *The Bulls aren't supposed to be good with three top 5 draft picks *and a max contract PF in their starting lineup.





hobojoe said:


> Great (and funny) post. It's funny because it's so true.


The Bulls have one top 5 draft pick in their starting lineup (and on the entire team, actually), and his name is Derrick Rose. So... not so great, funny, or true...


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dornado said:


> The Bulls have one top 5 draft pick in their starting lineup (and on the entire team, actually), and his name is Derrick Rose. So... not so great, funny, or true...


Top ten picks then.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> Ok, so we are going with the best player on best team? Then give the award to Kobe, ether way you look at it Rose shouldn't be the leading candidate.


Read it correctly, i said "it be a landslide if the magic have the 1st or 2nd best record in the eastern then you can make a case" But since the magic are in 4th place in the eastern conference, it isn't a landslide for Howard by any means.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> Ok, so we are going with the best player on best team? Then give the award to Kobe, ether way you look at it Rose *shouldn't be the leading candidate*.


:laugh::laugh::laugh:


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Wait so why isn't Kobe the MVP by the logic of Rose MVPhiles?


^^^If you been following my arguement with "game" you would know why. But i say it to you in short, the reason why? Cause Kobe has a WAY better supporting cast in Odom, Gasol, Bynum, Brown, Fisher. <<<Need i say more? Oh Kobe has the greatest nba coach of times in Phil Jackson. And before the season started the lakers was already the favorite to go back to the finals. Nobody thought the bulls who were the 8th seed under 500 last year would of have the best record in the ecf.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Wait so why isn't Kobe the MVP by the logic of Rose MVPhiles?


I would have no problem with Kobe winning MVP.

I think you'd find that most "Rose for MVP" people feel the same.

He certainly deserves it more than Lebron.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> :laugh::laugh::laugh:


You can laugh all you want, because it is the truth. If you go by the "most valuable to his team" criteria then the MVP should be Howard, if you go by the "best player" criteria then it is Lebron, and if they go with the "best player on the best team" criteria then it is Kobe. 

Anyway, Rose is going to win it since the media has already penciled him in for the award, even though he has shot 41% in March.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Pay Ton said:


> I would have no problem with Kobe winning MVP.
> 
> I think you'd find that most "Rose for MVP" people feel the same.
> 
> *He certainly deserves it more than Lebron*.


Truer words have never been spoken.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Hyperion said:


> because the Lakers are SUPPOSED to be good. The Bulls aren't supposed to be good with three top 5 draft picks and a max contract PF in their starting lineup.





Hyperion said:


> Top ten picks then.


Well you were already corrected on your top 5 picks comment. So i put in your retraction. But also you should realize that Boozer is not a Max contract PF. He is about 5 mil per year short of that number. Big Difference. For example Booz makes about 15 per, Amare makes about 20, Both drafted in the same year and signed in the same offseason by new teams.

Next who cares about how many top 10 picks you have? Does top 10 equal surefire great talent? And why is 3 an impressive number for that matter? 

The pistons have 6 top ten picks on their roster. The Timberwolves have 6 top 10 picks (4 top 5). hardly important.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> You can laugh all you want, because it is the truth. If you go by the "most valuable to his team" criteria then the MVP should be Howard, if you go by the "best player" criteria then it is Lebron, and if they go with the "best player on the best team" criteria then it is Kobe. .


What A lot of you guys seemingly don't get is that the MVP award isn't about the real best player or even the guy that really makes the biggest difference. 9 times out of 10 the award is given to the player on the best team that is perceived to be the most unquestioned star on his team. 

Kobe shouldn't win because Pau Gasol is to close to him. Wade and Lebron shouldn't win because of the same reason plus their team isn't as good as the Bulls. Howard shouldn't win because his team is just not good enough. 8th in the NBA just doesn't cut it for ORlando.

Truth is Rose should win the award based on precedence.




> Anyway, Rose is going to win it since the media has already penciled him in for the award, even though he has shot 41% in March


So he shot 42% in march... who cares. He also averaged 26-7 and the bulls were 13-3. So what's the problem?

And on a side note I would like to address one more problem people have with Rose. They say he's not efficient enough:

His PER of 23.5 ranks 11th in the NBA but is within 1 point of all but 3 players in the NBA. Wade, Lebron, Howard. Now if you want to give the MVP based on efficiency to one of those guys then I am fine with it. but let's not make the efficiency argument against Rose for guys Like Kobe, Dirk, Durant etc.. because their PER might be half a point higher. It's just to small a difference to really matter.


Bottomline is Rose has the strongest resume for what the MVP represents. If you want to argue Best player then petition the NBA for a new award. Although it would be pretty boring seeing the last 25 going only to 5 players (Jordan, D-Rob, Shaq, Duncan, and Lebron)


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I would not have been bored by Shaq winning more than one MVP.


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Per only measures efficiency as based on team production. Ballhogs have an artificially high per.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

This discussion is out of control. Everyone has a different meaning of MVP, and hence coming to different conclusions. (Also the various biases don't help)

My two cents to add to the chaos.

Howard is in the discussion, but Rose has now leaped him, IMO. I was not saying this too long ago, but what the Bulls are doing (running away w/ the #1 seed) has really elevated Rose in the MVP discussion. Howard is having a better season, and sure wins aren't the only thing that matters...but, I do think your team must reach a certain level of team success to be considered. The Magic just aren't there. And while they are lacking the talent of Chicago, Boston, Miami, LA, OKC, it's not like J-Rich and Nelson are chopped liver (not supposed to be at least...I certainly don't see Howard making those guys better players the way Rose and Kobe do)

You can harp on Rose's efficiency all you want, but there are some things that numbers just don't say. Like those ridiculous scoring bursts Rose gives you when the other Bulls players can't get the ball in the hole. His timing is impeccable. Is there a stat for stopping opponent runs? I'd bet Rose is #1 in the league in that category. My knock on him is the way he lulls to sleep during other points, but man, I've rarely seen a guy like him who recognizes when his team needs points and he just makes it happen at will.

That said, my vote still goes to Kobe. For many of the same reasons Rose is in the top 3 of the discussion. Equal/better team, and still a slightly better player than Rose.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

its wierd to me people act as there is some set criteria for mvp.

there isn't.

if there was there would be no discussion . the best player on the best team is manu ginobilli , the best player in the league is lebron, the most impactful player is dwight howard whose mismatched roster has a distinct talented but 28 win feel to it because they would suck on defense and rebounding while not being any good on offense due to mismatched offensive pieces. the best mixture which would be best player on a true title contender is kobe bryant who are defending champs.

but history tells another story.

jordan won his 1st mvp and his team won 50 games.

magic won 62 that year and was the reigning mvp...bird won 57 and was a year removed from winning 3 mvp's in a row.

air jordan won because his team was seen as arriving and he was the driving force behind that reasoning and without him his team was seen as basically garbage.

and his winning was the best story, there was *a lot* of hype surrounding him.

its going to rose for a simple reason , the bulls are a borderline playoff team at best without him.

outside of boozer they have no one who can create their own shot and he is good at it, not great at it. so despite their stifling defense , excellent boardwork , camaraderie, in the 4th none of that gets you clutch baskets in close games, except rose who does it again and again.

teams win based on how they execute in the 4th quarter

and with rose they are getting it done and rose does it in an exciting , crowd pleasing manner.

in the end the nba is selling a product and rose winning is the best story to sell, it wants another jordan to sell and rose winning the mvp in the bulls arriving as a legit top team is a great start. and they way they are winning the choice gets easier every day.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> What A lot of you guys seemingly don't get is that the MVP award isn't about the real best player or even the guy that really makes the biggest difference. 9 times out of 10 the award is given to the player on the best team that is perceived to be the most unquestioned star on his team.
> 
> Kobe shouldn't win because Pau Gasol is to close to him. Wade and Lebron shouldn't win because of the same reason plus their team isn't as good as the Bulls. Howard shouldn't win because his team is just not good enough. 8th in the NBA just doesn't cut it for ORlando.
> 
> Truth is Rose should win the award based on precedence.


That is BS, outside out of a few people no one see Kobe and Pau as near equals. Kobe should win the award because he is the unquestioned best player on the best team and is having a better year then Rose. Really, neither one should win it over Howard, but Kobe fits the traditional "MVP" criteria more so then Derrick Rose. The Rose hype is seriously getting absurd, I mean I like the guy but I mean come on he wins player of the month even though he only shot 40% and Lebron and Dwight were light years better, Rose is a great young player but things are becoming a joke now.


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Kobe is not the reason why the Lakers are so good. Everyone knows that team wins because their bigs are better than everyone else's bigs. The only person who has trouble remembering this is Kobe himself. When that team loses it's usually because Kobe was being Kobe instead of playing team basketball. Rose isn't the reason that the Bulls are so good, but then they're really just good compared to the Eastern Conference.


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Should be Dwight Howard, but it will probably end up being Rose.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

The problem for Howard is team record, the Magic are fourth in their conference, and second in their division. And the Magic have been up and down all season. They're only 4 games better than the Hawks. Who I think have just been down right terrible. Where the Bulls are 1st in their conference, and first in their division obviously, have beaten all the elite teams even sweeping some of them, Rose has played incredible, and the Bulls are 12 games better than the Hawks.


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Stop comparing teams to the Hawks, I don't know if that's just you trying to put things into context for me because I'm a Hawks fan or what, but it's irrelevant. 

Look at it like this, the Magic have the 3rd best defense in the league. Who's the second best defender on that team? Can you even come up with somebody? Quentin Richardson maybe? Dwight Howard is absolutely irreplaceable, I don't think you can say the same for Rose.


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Dwight Howard isn't going to win MVP, I'm not even going to pretend he might. But I don't think Rose is clearly ahead of everybody like the media and Bulls fans seem to be propagating.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



GregOden said:


> Stop comparing teams to the Hawks, I don't know if that's just you trying to put things into context for me because I'm a Hawks fan or what, but it's irrelevant.
> 
> Look at it like this, the Magic have the 3rd best defense in the league. Who's the second best defender on that team? Can you even come up with somebody? Quentin Richardson maybe? Dwight Howard is absolutely irreplaceable, I don't think you can say the same for Rose.


And defense is the reason Howard will win another DPOTYA going away. However they won't give him the MVP for something he's already done since entering the league, and that's make the Magic one of the best defensive teams in the NBA. 

I don't have to say it about Rose, his teammates, and coaching staff do. It's clear to me that Rose drives the Bulls team. It's very clear when defense as good as it may be, isn't getting stops, and somebody has to win the game offensively for you. Rose has been that guy for Chicago. Saw him do it against the elite teams like the Lakers, Heat, and Spurs this season. As good as Dwight Howard is defensively he can still be a liability offensively, from his free throw shooting late in games, to getting to many tech's etc etc And while I agree Howard has improved in those areas, he's still one step away from truly being able to lead a team not only defensively but offensively too. 

I guess my point is, there are plenty of arguments against any candidate this season for the MVP. There is no clear cut winners, I simply give the edge to Rose, because he's had enough stand out performances to me against elite teams, his team records is obviously amazing, and when Boozer or Noah or both at the same time have been gone due to injury he's been the constant leader through and through.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



GregOden said:


> Stop comparing teams to the Hawks, I don't know if that's just you trying to put things into context for me because I'm a Hawks fan or what, but it's irrelevant.
> 
> Look at it like this, the Magic have the 3rd best defense in the league. Who's the second best defender on that team? Can you even come up with somebody? Quentin Richardson maybe? Dwight Howard is absolutely irreplaceable, I don't think you can say the same for Rose.


Um Brandon Bass?


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



GregOden said:


> Stop comparing teams to the Hawks, I don't know if that's just you trying to put things into context for me because I'm a Hawks fan or what, but it's irrelevant.
> 
> Look at it like this, the Magic have the 3rd best defense in the league. Who's the second best defender on that team? Can you even come up with somebody? Quentin Richardson maybe? Dwight Howard is absolutely irreplaceable, I don't think you can say the same for Rose.


Simple question, when was the last time a player wins the nba mvp when his team is 4th place in either the western or eastern conference?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Simple question, when was the last time a player wins the nba mvp when his team is 4th place in either the western or eastern conference?


The Denver Nuggets have essentially the same record as the Magic.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> The Denver Nuggets have essentially the same record as the Magic.


Shhhhh don't tell "game" and gregoden that lol.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> That is BS, outside out of a few people no one see Kobe and Pau as near equals. .


Pau is certainly a near equal to Kobe. I don't care what the Kobe lovers say. Pau is probably the best or at least a top 3 7 footer in the NBA. Most people realize just how good that dude is.


> Kobe should win the award


No way.


> because he is the unquestioned best player on the best team


Best team?
Did you mean 3rd best team? (san Antonio, Chicago) Or do you just mean that the lakers are the best team but they have just underperformed? And if you think they have underperformed then is that a good MVP argument for Kobe?



> and is having a better year then Rose.


How? Someone please tell me how Kobe is having a better year? Kobe has basically the same PER but plays about 4 less mpg... or about 8% less per game. That doesn't sound as valuable... Not to mention Kobe's Defensive effort has completly fallen off the map. I'm sick of watching him take the easiest D assignment possible and then just coasting through that end of the court. He's turning into the Jeter of the NBA, (winning gold gloves every year when your the worst defensive shortstop in baseball). So please don't say he is having a better year...


> Really, neither one should win it over Howard


Howard's the only one with a legit argument over Rose, but really his team just doesn't have a good enough record.


> but Kobe fits the traditional "MVP" criteria more so then Derrick Rose.


Not so. kobe is perceived to have much better talent surrounding him, then anyone else in the league. And to be honest it's true. Rose is perceived to not have a lot of talent around him. This is not so true, Rose does havee a ton of talent around him and more importantly it's a really well built team. But perception is key here. And everyone did not think the Bulls would be near this good. The fact that they are defines why Rose is the traditional MVP.


> The Rose hype is seriously getting absurd, I mean I like the guy but I mean come on he wins player of the month even though he only shot 40% and Lebron and Dwight were light years better, Rose is a great young player but things are becoming a joke now


Well when you get upset about Rose getting a lot of pub, just remember that Jordan retiring forced the sports media to find a replacement in Kobe and hype the hell out of him for the past 12 years. Youv'e enjoyed your fair share of completly ridiculous Kobe love from the media. Don't be so angry that the torch is getting passed.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Hyperion said:


> Per only measures efficiency as based on team production. Ballhogs have an artificially high per.


What's the efficiency stat that you prefer?


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Hyperion said:


> Per only measures efficiency as based on team production. Ballhogs have an artificially high per.


Agree with above poster, this statement seems like a contradiction, PER is based on team production, but ballhogs have artifically high PERS??


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Da Grinch said:


> its wierd to me people act as there is some set criteria for mvp.
> 
> there isn't.
> .


Im going to assume you were directing this at me, so I will respond...



caseyrh said:


> What A lot of you guys seemingly don't get is that the MVP award isn't about the real best player or even the guy that really makes the biggest difference. 9 times out of 10 the award is given to *the player on the best team that is perceived to be the most unquestioned star on his team. *


There is my definition. None of these are my definition:


if there was there would be no discussion . the best player on the best team is manu ginobilli yeah but he's not the unquestioned star, Duncan and Parker are perceived to be too close to him , the best player in the league is lebronyeah but he has wade and the Heat aren't as good as the bulls, the most impactful player is dwight howardtrue but his record is likely not good enough, plus you can go to the top of the east to find a guy perceived to be a turly unquestioned star of a team, so why go to the 4th seed for the MVP? whose mismatched roster has a distinct talented but 28 win feel to it because they would suck on defense and rebounding while not being any good on offense due to mismatched offensive pieces. 


> the best mixture which would be best player on a true title contender is kobe bryant who are defending champs.


Who you view as a "true contender" in the playoffs, has nothing to do with the regular season MVP. And the Bulls are obviously true contenders as the big favorites to make it out of the east.




> teams win based on how they execute in the 4th quarter


Which is a really tough argument against the Lakers. They are only + 0.2 in the 4th. The Bulls are +3.5 Great argument for Rose.



> and with rose they are getting it done and rose does it in an exciting , crowd pleasing manner.


agreed.


> in the end the nba is selling a product and rose winning is the best story to sell, it wants another jordan to sell and rose winning the mvp in the bulls arriving as a legit top team is a great start. and they way they are winning the choice gets easier every day


Some truth to this. But remember it's sportswriters that vote on MVP. It's not a NBA conspiracy. Just the way sportswriters have always voted.


----------



## Shaoxia

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

What really bothers me is that a few years ago, many people were saying "LeBron deserves the MVP award, but he is still young and has so many years ahead when he can win it, so let's give it to some established player instead". Why don't they use this argument with Rose now? He's in his third year and will have so many more chances to win. He's also very likely to have better seasons statistically. If you give it to him now, won't you have to give it to him every year hence?
Reporters change the parameters at will to fit their agenda. I wish the NBA would go back to letting the players vote for the MVP; they know better than those silly "experts" anyway.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

experts know better than you. i can see reasons not to give rose the mvp, but both howard and lebron, 2 of the top 4 candidates already said rose deserved the award, I think he wins the players vote tbh.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Shaoxia said:


> What really bothers me is that a few years ago, many people were saying "LeBron deserves the MVP award, but he is still young and has so many years ahead when he can win it, so let's give it to some established player instead". *Why don't they use this argument with Rose now?* He's in his third year and will have so many more chances to win.


Because that's a retarded argument.


----------



## Shaoxia

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> experts know better than you. i can see reasons not to give rose the mvp, but both howard and lebron, 2 of the top 4 candidates already said rose deserved the award, I think he wins the players vote tbh.


Do they know better? Most of them are guys who have never played organized basketball. Their degrees in journalism allow them to speak and write about basketball like they know.
Howard and LeBron don't actually believe that Rose is more valuable than they are. What, do you want them to say "yeah, Rose is a great player, but I'm more valuable"? If reporters asked LeBron "do you think Dwight Howard is deserving of the MVP honor?", he would say he thinks so, as well.


----------



## Shaoxia

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> Because that's a retarded argument.


That's my point! Reporters come up with new retarded arguments each year just so they can justify their completely biased decisions.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Shaoxia said:


> Do they know better? Most of them are guys who have never played organized basketball. Their degrees in journalism allow them to speak and write about basketball like they know.
> Howard and LeBron don't actually believe that Rose is more valuable than they are. What, do you want them to say "yeah, Rose is a great player, but I'm more valuable"? If reporters asked LeBron "do you think Dwight Howard is deserving of the MVP honor?", he would say he thinks so, as well.


Its not like they were asked, "Is Rose Mvp worthy?" They both came out and said it on their own when asked who they would vote for or some question of that nature.

I think Howard said, If I couldn't vote for myself, it would be for Drose. I mean ask any of the top 5 candidates and they would vote for themselves.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Tough stretch of games coming up for the Bulls this week. Celtics, Knicks, Magic, Suns, and the Cavs in Cleveland on the night after the Boston game. If they drop even two of those the MVP discussion gets really interesting. Conversely if the Lakers end up reeling in the Spurs and getting the best record in the NBA, Kobe for MVP begins to get a lot of those Rose votes.

I wonder if Kobe and Rose could split the votes of the "best player on best team" vote, and Howard could sneak in with the consolidated vote of the "most valuable player" votes?


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Tough stretch of games coming up for the Bulls this week. Celtics, Knicks, Magic, Suns, and the Cavs in Cleveland on the night after the Boston game.


Not really that tough... Celtics are playing terrible and the Bulls are at home. Knicks are mediocre at best. Magic will be tough. Suns are decent. Cavs are awful.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> Not really that tough... Celtics are playing terrible and the Bulls are at home. Knicks are mediocre at best. Magic will be tough. Suns are decent. Cavs are awful.


Celtics will be up for that game though conceivably. And that Cavs game is on the road second night of a back to back--the same Cavs team who has beaten the Celtics, Heat, Lakers, and Spurs....they get up for the big games.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> Im going to assume you were directing this at me, so I will respond...




i wasn't actually it was a general post, this is a thread on who should be the mvp and everyone is discussing why they feel their choice is mvp.



> There is my definition. None of these are my definition:
> 
> 
> if there was there would be no discussion . the best player on the best team is manu ginobilli yeah but he's not the unquestioned star, Duncan and Parker are perceived to be too close to him , the best player in the league is lebronyeah but he has wade and the Heat aren't as good as the bulls, the most impactful player is dwight howardtrue but his record is likely not good enough, plus you can go to the top of the east to find a guy perceived to be a turly unquestioned star of a team, so why go to the 4th seed for the MVP? whose mismatched roster has a distinct talented but 28 win feel to it because they would suck on defense and rebounding while not being any good on offense due to mismatched offensive pieces.


i know your definition i read the thread, i dont believe in the 2 close theory , jordan has won when pippen was a top 10 player , the same with shaq and kobe , nash and amare, malone and stockton and again with kobe winning when he had gasol on his team.



> Who you view as a "true contender" in the playoffs, has nothing to do with the regular season MVP. And the Bulls are obviously true contenders as the big favorites to make it out of the east.


i think your viewpoint on why kobe is not as good a choice as rose explains it , kobe has an agreed upon better supporting cast while it is generally assumed rose is basically propelling the bulls with little help, despite records the lakers are still seen as a better team with a better chance to win a title , same goes for the heat & celts ...the bulls winning rate has helped but those three teams have always been seen as bettter and will likely continue to be so until they lose.






> Which is a really tough argument against the Lakers. They are only + 0.2 in the 4th. The Bulls are +3.5 Great argument for Rose.


i refer to the 4th as the time teams separate themselves from also rans and talented losers, the lakers have a similar record so basically i am gonna assume they are in better shape than the bulls entering the 4th , thus the disparity.





> Some truth to this. But remember it's sportswriters that vote on MVP. It's not a NBA conspiracy. Just the way sportswriters have always voted.


no but the nba and the sportswriters depend on each other to survive and thrive, what sells one sells the other, and the better story helps both sell their product. its basically an unspoken partnership and its not just basketball but sports in general.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Celtics will be up for that game though conceivably. And that Cavs game is on the road second night of a back to back--the same Cavs team who has beaten the Celtics, Heat, Lakers, and Spurs....they get up for the big games.


Theoretically, if the Bulls lose the Celtics game, we shouldn't (I repeat shouldn't...not won't) lose the Cavs game. The Bulls are the best "bounce back" team in the league. They have the best record in the NBA following a loss. And I believe they're one of the top teams record-wise on the second night of a back to back.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Celtics will be up for that game though conceivably. And that Cavs game is on the road second night of a back to back--the same Cavs team who has beaten the Celtics, Heat, Lakers, and Spurs....they get up for the big games.


The bulls have played more back to backs than any other team in the league not named the Milwaukee Bucks, I think the Bulls will be okay against the Cavs


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Shaoxia said:


> What really bothers me is that a few years ago, many people were saying "LeBron deserves the MVP award, but he is still young and has so many years ahead when he can win it, so let's give it to some established player instead". Why don't they use this argument with Rose now? He's in his third year and will have so many more chances to win. He's also very likely to have better seasons statistically. If you give it to him now, won't you have to give it to him every year hence?
> Reporters change the parameters at will to fit their agenda. I wish the NBA would go back to letting the players vote for the MVP; they know better than those silly "experts" anyway.


I don't think that was an argument being used by many voters back then.

In reality, Lebron's MVP awards have been heavily tied to his TEAM's success, which is precisely why Rose has been the leading candidate for much of the year; and especially now that Chicago is #1 in the East. 

2009-10: Cavs are 61-21, #1 in the NBA, Lebron wins MVP
2008-09: Cavs are 66-16, #1 in the NBA, Lebron wins MVP
2007-08: Cavs are 45-37, #13 in the NBA, Lebron doesn't win MVP
2006-07: Cavs are 50-32, #7 in the NBA, Lebron doesn't win MVP
2005-06: Cavs are 50-32, #7 in the NBA, Lebron doesn't win MVP
Prior to that, Cavs weren't even in the playoffs...

Historically, the MVP almost always comes from a top 3 team, and even more often comes from the #1 team. 

If anything, this supports the Rose for MVP argument. The Bulls have the #2 record in the league and may hit 60 wins. (Spurs are more of a team success rather than having a true MVP, so I guess you default to the next best team). 

But, it's also this same reason why my vote goes to Kobe, who I think has had a better individual year than Rose and the team success is right there.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



yodurk said:


> I don't think that was an argument being used by many voters back then.
> 
> In reality, Lebron's MVP awards have been heavily tied to his TEAM's success, which is precisely why Rose has been the leading candidate for much of the year; and especially now that Chicago is #1 in the East.
> 
> 2009-10: Cavs are 61-21, #1 in the NBA, Lebron wins MVP
> 2008-09: Cavs are 66-16, #1 in the NBA, Lebron wins MVP
> 2007-08: Cavs are 45-37, #13 in the NBA, Lebron doesn't win MVP
> 2006-07: Cavs are 50-32, #7 in the NBA, Lebron doesn't win MVP
> 2005-06: Cavs are 50-32, #7 in the NBA, Lebron doesn't win MVP
> Prior to that, Cavs weren't even in the playoffs...
> 
> Historically, the MVP almost always comes from a top 3 team, and even more often comes from the #1 team.
> 
> If anything, this supports the Rose for MVP argument. The Bulls have the #2 record in the league and may hit 60 wins. (Spurs are more of a team success rather than having a true MVP, so I guess you default to the next best team).
> 
> But, it's also this same reason *why my vote goes to Kobe,* *who I think has had a better individual year than Rose *and the team success is right there.


Who's roster is better? The Bulls? Or The Lakers besides Kobe and Rose? Who were the favorite from the start to go to the finals and likely win a ring? <<<Who's been injured alot of games as the 2nd best player on that team? Gasol? or Boozer? I'm tired of these people picking Kobe in which they not using their heads at all.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Last year the freaking bulls were in 8th place under 500 but this year they have the best record in the eastern conference mainly cause of Rose. They have had injuries from 2 key players in Boozer and Noah. Mostly with Boozer who is the 2nd best player on the bulls team. But yet the bulls still winning games mainly cause of rose. Enough (it's also cause of their defense)<<<Bullsh$t. The bulls defense is great but so?? If that's the case then the lakers success is not cause of kobe, it's cause of their roster mainely odom, gasol and mostly bynum. I hate it when people discrediting what rose has done. Too many kissing up to kobe. Rose as of this moment is the real mvp. And even if the bulls ends up in 2nd place in the ecf Rose should still get the mvp cause the stuff i have already said.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Who's roster is better? The Bulls? Or The Lakers besides Kobe and Rose? Who were the favorite from the start to go to the finals and likely win a ring? <<<Who's been injured alot of games as the 2nd best player on that team? Gasol? or Boozer? I'm tired of these people picking Kobe in which they not using their heads at all.


The Lakers have a mch more talented starting line up, and their bench is quite good as well, with most likely the 6th man of the year award winner in Odom. 

Bynum = Noah
Gasol > Boozer
Artest > Deng
Bryant > Bogans
Fisher < Rose


----------



## Dornado

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> The Lakers have a mch more talented starting line up, and their bench is quite good as well, with most likely the 6th man of the year award winner in Odom.
> 
> Bynum = Noah
> Gasol > Boozer
> *Artest > Deng*
> Bryant > Bogans
> Fisher < Rose


I beg to differ.


----------



## BlakeJesus

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> The Lakers have a mch more talented starting line up, and their bench is quite good as well, with most likely the 6th man of the year award winner in Odom.
> 
> Bynum = Noah
> Gasol > Boozer
> Artest > Deng
> Bryant > Bogans
> Fisher < Rose


Ron Artest is not better than Deng, in my opnion. Deng is a good defender (not better than Artest, but he's not too far off), a better rebounder, a more complete offensive player, and probably a better passer.


----------



## roux

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dornado said:


> I beg to differ.


I hate the Bulls and Lakers but i would have to agree. Deng has much more impact on a game then Artest does right now.. now if you had compared deng to odom i could buy a tie or slight favor towards odom


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Deng is having a nice season, a lot to do with Rose taking the pressure off of him. However I'm going to give the nod to Ron Artest who can completely shut down a guy like Deng for an entire series. Also lets ntoe - Artest has had a much better over all career than Deng. But okay guy's it's your opinions Deng > Artest.


----------



## roux

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Deng is having a nice season, a lot to do with Rose taking the pressure off of him. However I'm going to give the nod to Ron Artest who can completely shut down a guy like Deng for an entire series. Also lets ntoe - Artest has had a much better over all career than Deng. But okay guy's it's your opinions Deng > Artest.


Thats the thing.. we werent comparing careers, artest at his peak was better than deng.. there is no arguing that.. but there is no arguing over who is the better player in 2011


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



roux2dope said:


> Thats the thing.. we werent comparing careers, artest at his peak was better than deng.. there is no arguing that.. but there is no arguing over who is the better player in 2011


Ron Artest is still better than Deng in 2011. Ron Artest can take guys completely out of a series. Did you not see Artest shut down the likes of Pierce and Durant in the playoffs last season ? Ron Artest is getting slept on because he's playing for the Lakers now. Artest is what the 4th 5th option on that team after Kobe, Pau, Bynum, and Odom. Look up Ron's defensive and offensive stats when on teams that relied on him, such as when he was with the Pacers and Rockets. Ron Artest is clearly the better player now.


----------



## roux

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Ron Artest is still better than Deng in 2011. Ron Artest can take guys completely out of a series. Did you not see Artest shut down the likes of Pierce and Durant in the playoffs last season ? Ron Artest is getting slept on because he's playing for the Lakers now. Artest is what the 4th 5th option on that team after Kobe, Pau, Bynum, and Odom. Look up Ron's defensive and offensive stats when on teams that relied on him, such as when he was with the Pacers and Rockets. Ron Artest is clearly the better player now.


Ron Artest hasnt shot over 41% from the floor since 2007-8.. he is a ineffecient offensive player at this point, deng stretches the floor hits over 5% pf his shots is at least his equal in rebounding, but his offense is so beyond artests at this point and actuallky has been for years it makes up for the fact that artest is a slightly better defender at this point.. deng is a lengthy matchup nightmare for most 3's in this league... deng is a very very good defender.


----------



## King Joseus

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Yeah...players don't maintain their peak for the rest of their career. Artest's past is not relevant to a discussion on who's better this year.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Ron Artest is still better than Deng in 2011. Ron Artest can take guys completely out of a series. Did you not see Artest shut down the likes of Pierce and Durant in the playoffs last season ? Ron Artest is getting slept on because he's playing for the Lakers now. Artest is what the 4th 5th option on that team after Kobe, Pau, Bynum, and Odom. Look up Ron's defensive and offensive stats when on teams that relied on him, such as when he was with the Pacers and Rockets. Ron Artest is clearly the better player now.


Sorry, but Deng has been terrific defensively this year and is the better rebounder and the better offensive player.

I have no problem with Ron Artest but Deng gives you more at this point.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



roux2dope said:


> Ron Artest hasnt shot over 41% from the floor since 2007-8.. he is a ineffecient offensive player at this point, deng stretches the floor hits over 5% pf his shots is at least his equal in rebounding, but his offense is so beyond artests at this point and actuallky has been for years it makes up for the fact that artest is a slightly better defender at this point.. deng is a lengthy matchup nightmare for most 3's in this league... deng is a very very good defender.


Yep Ron Ron is officially underrated. That's okay. You're entitled to your opinion. However I know if matched up against each other for an entire series, the offensive efficiency that Deng brings to the table (which isn't saying much) would be smothered by Ron Ron, and Deng would look quite bad. Artest is a different animal than Deng. And the better player.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Deng is better than Artest this season, I dont think tere is any doubt in that. The lakers would trade Artest for Deng in a heartbeat, while the bulls would hang up the phone


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dornado said:


> Sorry, but Deng has been terrific defensively this year and is the better rebounder and the better offensive player.
> 
> I have no problem with Ron Artest but Deng gives you more at this point.


I'm comparing the players head to head, if you didn't notice in my original post. And a Bulls vs. Lakers series Ron Artest would make Deng look down right pathetic.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



O2K said:


> Deng is better than Artest this season, I dont think tere is any doubt in that. The lakers would trade Artest for Deng in a heartbeat, while the bulls would hang up the phone


Your point ? I'm sure LA would of traded Artest for Durant and Pierce in a heart beat as well, but guess what when Ron is covering them for an entire series he shuts them down, and makes them look feeble.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Deng is better then Artest but Artest has shown he can be clutch in which he did in game 5 vs the suns with a buzzer beater. And Artest not Kobe was the reason why The Lakers beat The Celtics in game 7. So i'll be honest of who's a better roster.


Bynum > Noah

Gasol > Boozer

Artest < Deng

Bryant > Bogan

Fisher < Rose


Bench 

Odom > Gibson


Brown > Korver


Barnes > Brewer


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Kupchak would rupture his spleen making that trade. Deng has actually been the second best player on the Bulls and probably deserved to be an All Star. Artest has been a bum most of the season and only played well sporadically. The Bulls have a terrific front line. I bet the Spurs front office would kill to have Kurt Thomas back. If they had him I'd like their chances at a title. People who talk about Boozer and Noah missing time never remember how well Thomas played in their places. He won them several games playing like he was 25.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> I'm comparing the players head to head, if you didn't notice in my original post. And a Bulls vs. Lakers series Ron Artest would make Deng look down right pathetic.


While Artest's teams have mostly beaten the Bulls with Deng, Deng has done alright statistically head to head against Artest, including shooting 50% from the field.










Meanwhile, Deng is 25 years old and seems to be progressing...


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Diable said:


> Kupchak would rupture his spleen making that trade. Deng has actually been the second best player on the Bulls and probably deserved to be an All Star. Artest has been a bum most of the season and only played well sporadically. The Bulls have a terrific front line. I bet the Spurs front office would kill to have Kurt Thomas back. If they had him I'd like their chances at a title. People who talk about Boozer and Noah missing time never remember how well *Thomas* played in their places. He won them several games playing like he was 25.


Cool but yet Thomas still an old veteran that is way past his prime. He's playing well at his age but don't sit in your computer and tell me the bulls would win a ring with boozer or noah out for good and Thomas be the replacement?


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Diable said:


> Kupchak would rupture his spleen making that trade. *Deng has actually been the second best player on the Bulls *and probably deserved to be an All Star. Artest has been a bum most of the season and only played well sporadically. The Bulls have a terrific front line. I bet the Spurs front office would kill to have Kurt Thomas back. If they had him I'd like their chances at a title. People who talk about Boozer and Noah missing time never remember how well Thomas played in their places. He won them several games playing like he was 25.


Nah chill. When healthy Boozer is the 2nd best player on the bulls roster behind Rose. Deng is the 3rd option while Noah is the 4th.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I think most basketball fans right now would say Deng>Artest. This season Artest has been pretty much a non-factor. Whereas Deng is the second most important player on the bulls, and arguably their most important defender. All Artest can do anymore is be physical with people on defense, and if that doesn't work(it does work against Durant, but not against Wade, Lebron, or Pierce), then he's pretty ****ed at this point in his career.

I think if they played in the finals though, the reason the Lakers would win is because of how much better Kobe and Gasol are than Rose/Deng. Phil will put Kobe on Rose like he does all quick point guards, and force him to be a shooter. On the other end, I think Kobe's shooting would mitigate the trapping overload style the Bulls do. If they overload Kobe on jumpers, Gasol and Bynum should dominate the weakside rebounding with putbacks.

It would be a tough series, but I think the Lakers would win 4-1. Sort of similar to that Lakers-Sixers series back in the day. I don't think the Bulls can score enough to beat the Lakers in a finals situation.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Nah chill. When healthy Boozer is the 2nd best player on the bulls roster behind Rose.


If basketball were only played on one end, then yeah. But Deng while 3rd option offensively, is 1st option defensively. Whereas Boozer is easily the worst defending front court player the Bulls have.

I think if you take into account defense as well as offense, Boozer is the fourth most important Bulls player after Rose, Deng, Noah.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> If basketball were only played on one end, then yeah. But Deng while 3rd option offensively, is 1st option defensively. Whereas Boozer is easily the worst defending front court player the Bulls have.
> 
> I think if you take into account defense as well as offense, Boozer is the fourth most important Bulls player after Rose, Deng, Noah.


Boozer is not a good defender but he's still the 2nd option behind Rose for the bulls. The bulls didn't signed alot of money for Boozer to be the 3rd option.


----------



## roux

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Well they both take about 14 shots a game.. ones a post player, the other is a jump shooter.. they both fit into a very well balanced offense equally, so i dont think it really matters who is 2 and who is 3


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> I think most basketball fans right now would say Deng>Artest. This season Artest has been pretty much a non-factor. Whereas Deng is the second most important player on the bulls, and arguably their most important defender. All Artest can do anymore is be physical with people on defense, and if that doesn't work(it does work against Durant, but not against Wade, Lebron, or Pierce), then he's pretty ****ed at this point in his career.
> 
> I think if they played in the finals though, the reason the Lakers would win is because of how much better Kobe and Gasol are than Rose/Deng. Phil will put Kobe on Rose like he does all quick point guards, and force him to be a shooter. On the other end, I think Kobe's shooting would mitigate the trapping overload style the Bulls do. *If they overload Kobe on jumpers, Gasol and Bynum should dominate the weakside rebounding with putbacks.*It would be a tough series, but I think the Lakers would win 4-1. Sort of similar to that Lakers-Sixers series back in the day. I don't think the Bulls can score enough to beat the Lakers in a finals situation.


You actually made my point of why Rose should be the mvp cause of the point you making if the bulls face the lakers in the finals cause not just kobe, cause of bynum, gasol the next twin towers similar to of duncan/ robinson. And it proves my point that kobe roster is far better then the bulls but yet the bulls as of now has the best record in the eastern confernce mainly cause of rose. If you mention (it's also cause of their defense) 1 more time then i'm going to say the reason the lakers beat the celtics last year is not cause of kobe, it was cause of ARTEST!!!  And the reason the lakers has been amazing in the 2nd half of the season, it's not cause of kobe, it's cause of bynum, gasol, odom. <<<Mostly bynum who's been a monster.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> I think if they played in the finals though, the reason the Lakers would win is because of how much better Kobe and Gasol are than Rose/Deng. *Phil will put Kobe on Rose like he does all quick point guards, and force him to be a shooter.* On the other end, I think Kobe's shooting would mitigate the trapping overload style the Bulls do. If they overload Kobe on jumpers, Gasol and Bynum should dominate the weakside rebounding with putbacks.
> 
> It would be a tough series, but I think the Lakers would win 4-1. Sort of similar to that Lakers-Sixers series back in the day. I don't think the Bulls can score enough to beat the Lakers in a finals situation.


Kobe Bryant on his own is not going to keep Derrick Rose out of the lane (and that's not a slight to Bryant)... it takes multiple defenders.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



roux2dope said:


> Well they both take about 14 shots a game.. ones a post player, the other is a jump shooter.. they both fit into a very well balanced offense equally, so i dont think it really matters who is 2 and who is 3


If you talk about boozer and deng then look at the stats of minutes per game, deng plays 39.8 minutes per game while boozer only plays 31.9 minutes per game. And yet boozer avg 17.7 ppg while deng avg 17.5 ppg. 


^^^The points are similar but look at the minutes, it doesn't take boozer long to put up alot of points in lower minutes then deng. I think i rest my case.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> If you talk about boozer and deng then look at the stats of minutes per game, deng plays 39.8 minutes per game while boozer only plays 31.9 minutes per game. And yet boozer avg 17.7 ppg while deng avg 17.5 ppg.
> 
> 
> ^^^The points are similar but look at the minutes, it doesn't take boozer long to put up alot of points in lower minutes then deng. I think i rest my case.


Yeah, but your case is limited to proving who takes more shots per minute... so I guess you could call Boozer the second offensive option... that doesn't make him the second best player on the team.

Honestly... I think it is Rose and then Deng/Boozer/Noah in a group.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dornado said:


> Yeah, but your case is limited to proving who takes more shots per minute... so I guess you could call *Boozer the second offensive option... that doesn't make him the second best player on the team.*Honestly... I think it is Rose and then Deng/Boozer/Noah in a group.


Yea it does. Boozer is not a good defender but he's a great offensive player that make mid range to post up inside. If Dirk was traded to go to the bulls for boozer then is that mean dirk is also the 3rd option as well since he just like boozer is not a good defender? :laugh: Come on man.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Yea it does. Boozer is not a good defender but he's a great offensive player that make mid range to post up inside. If Dirk was traded to go to the bulls for boozer then is that mean dirk is also the 3rd option as well since he just like boozer is not a good defender? :laugh: Come on man.


Dirk's lowest scoring season since 2000 would be Carlos Boozer's career high... not a good comparison. I have no problem with Carlos Boozer, I just think you're getting caught up too much in the offensive side of the game. Boozer is the 2nd option offensively, but this year Deng can reasonably be called our second best player. As I said before, I view Boozer/Noah/Deng as being in the same group... different skill sets, hard to compare, but roughly equal in terms of their impact on the team.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dornado said:


> Dirk's lowest scoring season since 2000 would be Carlos Boozer's career high... not a good comparison. I have no problem with Carlos Boozer, I just think you're getting caught up too much in the offensive side of the game. Boozer is the 2nd option offensively, but this year Deng can reasonably be called our second best player. As I said before, I view Boozer/Noah/Deng as being in the same group... different skill sets, hard to compare, but roughly equal in terms of their impact on the team.


Actually it is a good comparison cause both Boozer and Dirk are pure scorers in which both don't play defense. Dirk is scoring more cause of 2 things, 1 he never had an explosive great great player while Boozer has in which Dirk in dallas is the first option. And 2 Dirk plays more minutes then Boozer. And Boozer imo is more unselfish then Dirk in which he doesn't score way more.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Actually it is a good comparison cause both Boozer and Dirk are pure scorers in which both don't play defense. Dirk is scoring more cause of 2 things, 1 he never had an explosive great great player while Boozer has in which Dirk in dallas is the first option. And 2 Dirk plays more minutes then Boozer. And Boozer imo is more unselfish then Dirk in which he doesn't score way more.


Not sure how this conversation got into this thread, but Boozer isn't close to Dirk offensively, and Deng has been way more important for the Bulls this year.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

We all sound like idiots. Anyway, time will set the record straight. let's come back to this Ron/Deng debate after the playoffs are over.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> Not sure how this conversation got into this thread, but Boozer isn't close to Dirk offensively, and Deng has been way more important for the Bulls this year.


Boozer is a not a better player then Dirk in which that's obvious but he just like Dirk is an offensive threat rather you agree with it or not. The man avg 17.8 ppg in just inch to 31.8 mpg. Deng is a real good player and has improve but he's not more important then boozer is. How can a player like deng be the 2nd best player behind rose if he only avg 17.5 ppg in just 39.8 mpg? <<<Doesn't make any freaking sense at all.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Boozer is a not a better player then Dirk in which that's obvious but he just like Dirk is an offensive threat rather you agree with it or not. The man avg 17.8 ppg in just inch to 31.8 mpg. Deng is a real good player and has improve but he's not more important then boozer is. How can a player like deng be the 2nd best player behind rose if he only avg 17.5 ppg in just 39.8 mpg? <<<Doesn't make any freaking sense at all.


Because his defense is far superior, why do you think Boozer only gets 31 minutes a game.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> Because his defense is far superior, why do you think Boozer only gets 31 minutes a game.


Cause umm i don't know maybe just maybe he has a back up pf in gibson who's playing very well? And umm i don't know help me out here umm ohh cause he's been injured alot recently?


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Cause umm i don't know maybe just maybe he has a back up pf in gibson who's playing very well? And umm i don't know help me out here umm ohh cause he's been injured alot recently?


I didn't say Deng was better, I said he was more important this year, especially due to Boozer injuries. The biggest reason he gets less minutes though is because he is a defensive liability. Think about it like this, if Boozer is an 8 on offense and 3 on defense, and Deng is a 6 or 7 on offense and 8 or 9 on defense, which would you rather have? I guess you don't think defense is important but it is.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> I didn't say Deng was better, I said he was more important this year, *especially due to Boozer injuries.* The biggest reason he gets less minutes though is because he is a defensive liability. Think about it like this, if Boozer is an 8 on offense and 3 on defense, and Deng is a 6 or 7 on offense and 8 or 9 on defense, which would you rather have? I guess you don't think defense is important but it is.


Of course but you forget the bulls also has defense in Noah, Thomas, Rose. And even bogans. Deng is a real good defender but his offense is not better then Boozer. Boozer is a better player in which you actually admit so it basically means he's the real 2nd option ahead of 3rd option Deng. Of course defense more important but you act like Deng is the only one from the bulls that is actually a good defender lol.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Deng is their most important defender, you could probably ask Thibadeau and he'd tell you that. His versatility on that end really covers a lot of people's asses. The Bulls win because of their defense, not because of what Boozer does. Boozer helps, but he sucks on defense and probably won't be on the floor in important moments against the Celtics or Heat because of that. Deng will pretty much always be on the floor in every important game Chicago plays. Deng is a lot like a young Scottie Pippen this season in that a lot of what he does is fill the gaps for a better superstar.

I think the majority has spoken on this issue and most are saying Deng is the more important than Boozer for the Bulls.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Deng is absolutely more important. There's no question. 

Without Boozer, we lose valuable, if inconsistent, post scoring (because on some nights Booz doesn't even score his points from the post).

Without Deng, we lose our defensive anchor, as well as scoring.

That's not to downplay Boozer's potential value. "If" he did what was asked of him and what he's capable of, Boozer's post scoring would be huge for us in the playoffs. We need those easy buckets immensely. And part of his unreliability is the reason I'm concerned about the Bulls against the Magic. I certainly think we're good enough to beat the Magic, but Boozer's inconsistency in the post makes it a little more questionable for me.

But still...Deng is more important.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Deng is officially overrated. Especially when you put his name in any context next to Scottie Pippens. Hell, Gerald Wallace > Deng, and we already know how that debate turned out for Wallace being likened to Pippen.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Gerald Wallace is also better than Ron Artest. As is Batum.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Deng is officially overrated.


Never thought I would see the day that that sentence was written on here.

Anyways the dude is a sure thing all d team. Should have been an all-star except he was underrated. He will give you 17-18 a night in a very consistent manner, he can slash and stretch the d, he doesn't need to handle the ball much to be effective, he does a good job on the boards, can defend elite players, passes well, plays smart and within himself. 

Basically the dude is a very solid, team oriented type of player, that helps you win a lot of games.


----------



## Edifier

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Deng is great, but there's no question in my mind that Rose is MVP. But I think without Rose or Deng the Bulls would be in trouble. They've already proven they can go without anyone else. This season Deng was surprisingly healthy, and surprisingly he came to play! I only started watching 1 and the half seasons ago, and I wasn't too impressed with Deng all the way until this season. What happened? This guy is awesome now.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> Never thought I would see the day that that sentence was written on here.
> 
> Anyways the dude is a sure thing all d team. Should have been an all-star except he was underrated. He will give you 17-18 a night in a very consistent manner, he can slash and stretch the d, he doesn't need to handle the ball much to be effective, he does a good job on the boards, can defend elite players, passes well, plays smart and within himself.
> 
> Basically the dude is a very solid, team oriented type of player, that helps you win a lot of games.


You saw it in a sentence because someone was trying to connect Deng to Pippen. And it's not even close Pippen dwarfs everything Deng has done in the past and presently in terms of basketball. 

Small forwards I know that are better than Deng. include, Jeff Green, Gerald Wallace, Rashard Lewis, Lamar Odom, Ron Artest, Carmelo Anthony, LeBron James, Paul Pierce, Richard Jefferson, Josh Smith, Caron Butler, Andre Iguodala, Rudy Gay, Danny Granger, and Kevin Durant. 

And arguments could be made for guy's like .. Andrei Kirilenko, Nicolas Batum, Thaddeus Young, Dorell Wright, Corey Maggette, Wilson Chandler, Hedo Turkoglu, Mike Miller, Michael Beasley and etc etc 

I would put Deng securely in the top 15-25 Small Forwards in the NBA. He's on the outside looking in at the top 10. I wouldn't even trade our back up SF in Portland for Deng.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> You saw it in a sentence because someone was trying to connect Deng to Pippen. And it's not even close Pippen dwarfs everything Deng has done in the past and presently in terms of basketball.
> 
> Small forwards I know that are better than Deng. include, Jeff Green, Gerald Wallace, *Rashard Lewis*, Lamar Odom, Ron Artest, Carmelo Anthony, LeBron James, Paul Pierce, Richard Jefferson, Josh Smith, Caron Butler, Andre Iguodala, Rudy Gay, Danny Granger, and Kevin Durant.
> 
> And arguments could be made for guy's like .. Andrei Kirilenko, Nicolas Batum, Thaddeus Young, Dorell Wright, Corey Maggette, Wilson Chandler, Hedo Turkoglu, Mike Miller, Michael Beasley and etc etc
> 
> I would put Deng securely in the top 15-25 Small Forwards in the NBA. *He's no where near the top 10 though. Not even freaking close*. I wouldn't even trade our back up SF in Portland for Deng.


Haha. Yep definitely overrated.

One of the worst posts Iv'e seen in a long time. Plus quite a few of the sf's you listed are power forwards, but seems kind of a ridiculous thing to point out with all of the other problems in that post.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> Haha. Yep definitely overrated.
> 
> One of the worst posts Iv'e seen in a long time. Plus quite a few of the sf's you listed are power forwards, but seems kind of a ridiculous thing to point out with all of the other problems in that post.


No several of those players are utilized at both positions. However all of them were defined as SF's when coming into the league.

I made an edit to my post, after reviewing the players I listed, I have Deng just outside the top 10. But yeah, it's such a freaking bad post. _Like Ehmagawd!_


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> We all sound like idiots. Anyway, time will set the record straight. let's come back to this Ron/Deng debate after the playoffs are over.


Time has already set you straight. If you would have made this comment 3 years ago people would have bumped it. The shocking thing is that you just made the post. Like Ron Artest is having a comparable season to Deng...

Statistically Deng is annihilating Artest. And defensively Deng is probably better now anyways. There is no reasonable comparison here.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> Time has already set you straight. If you would have made this comment 3 years ago people would have bumped it. The shocking thing is that you just made the post. Like Ron Artest is having a comparable season to Deng...
> 
> Statistically Deng is annihilating Artest. And defensively Deng is probably better now anyways. There is no reasonable comparison here.


Bump away. 

Deng's stat's are better than Ron's. Never said otherwise. I'm saying that in a head to head match up in a playoff series, I believe Ron Artest would out perform Luol Deng. And for me personally winning games, series, and championships when in position to attain these goals is what's most important, not your individual statistical dominance. Seriously if stats are all that we should judge a player by, how come Michael Jordan doesn't have like 12 MVP awards sitting in the 23 Shrine at his residence. How come LeBron James doesn't have 6 MVP's already. Point is, stats are only one small part in judging a players worth and merit on the court. Hell Dennis Rodman just made the Hall Of Fame, I doubt Deng will, and Rodman never put up the stats Deng has offensively.

Ron Artest > Luol Deng.

And if these teams meet in the Finals, Ron Artest will show you the baby.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Bump away.
> 
> Deng's stat's are better than Ron's. Never said otherwise. I'm saying that in a head to head match up in a playoff series, I believe Ron Artest would out perform Luol Deng. And for me personally winning games, series, and championships when in position to attain these goals is what's most important, not your individual statistical dominance. Seriously if stats are all that we should judge a player by, how come Michael Jordan doesn't have like 12 MVP awards sitting in the 23 Shrine at his residence. How come LeBron James doesn't have 6 MVP's already. Point is, stats are only one small part in judging a players worth and merit on the court. Hell Dennis Rodman just made the Hall Of Fame, I doubt Deng will, and Rodman never put up the stats Deng has offensively.


Yeah who cares about stats, when we got your opinion, to overrule everything?

The best part is Deng isn't even a "stat guy" he is just a really good, smart, team player, who does all the unmeasurables a team needs to win. And yet you are making him out to be a "stat" guy, and putting guys like Rashard Lewis above him...

I'm not saying stats are everything (certainly not when talking about a defender like Deng) but I hate the people who argue against stats like they are for nerds and basketball dummy's.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> Yeah who cares about stats, when we got your opinion, to overrule everything?
> 
> The best part is Deng isn't even a "stat guy" he is just a really good, smart, team player, who does all the unmeasurables a team needs to win. And yet you are making him out to be a "stat" guy, and putting guys like Rashard Lewis above him...
> 
> I'm not saying stats are everything (certainly not when talking about a defender like Deng) but I hate the people who argue against stats like they are for nerds and basketball dummy's.


Listen, I never used Dengs/Artests stats. That was brought up by your faithful Deng supporters comparing his statistical dominance to Artests. So please don't put words in my mouth, or come at me with assumptions. I don't think stats are for nerds, I simply believe they're overrated when comparing players in a head to head match up. 

For example a guy like Tim Duncan is considered the best PF of all time, yet when Karl Malone played for LA in his twilight years was able to hold Duncan below 40 percent shooting for the series, and help his team defeat the Spurs. I don't use stats as the biggest component when comparing players unless they are used at equal value from their minutes, role on the team, and age. It's why I mentioned earlier in this thread that Artest when placed in a role where he got more minutes, younger age like Deng, he put up better individual statistics. 

And with that all being said, my opinion is an informed one, even if it's not popular with the contingent here. And I believe Ron Artest is better than Luol Deng. Among many other players that play the SF position. For such reasons I just mentioned.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> I would put Deng securely in the top 15-25 Small Forwards in the NBA. He's on the outside looking in at the top 10.


OK here's an interesting exercise. These are the top 40 sf's in the NBA sorted by ppg. Please keep in mind Deng is easily one of if not the best defenders on this list. Please highlight the names of all players that are better SF's then Deng. 

RK	PLAYER TEAM	GP	MPG	*PTS* FGM-FGA FG%	3PM-3PA 3P%	FTM-FTA FT%

1 Kevin Durant, SF	OKC	73	39.3	*27.8* 9.2-19.8	.461	1.9-5.4	.353	7.6-8.6	.881
2	LeBron James, SF	MIA	75	38.7	*26.6* 9.6-18.8	.510	1.2-3.5	.328	6.3-8.3	.759
3	Carmelo Anthony, SF	DEN/NY	73	35.8	*25.5* 8.8-19.4	.455	1.1-3.0	.372	6.7-8.0	.838
4	Danny Granger, SF	IND	76	35.1	*20.4* 6.7-15.9	.423	1.9-5.2	.378	5.0-5.8	.849
5	Rudy Gay, SF MEM	54	39.9	*19.8* 7.6-16.1	.471	1.1-2.7	.396	3.6-4.5	.805
6	Paul Pierce, SF BOS	77	34.6	*18.8* 6.3-12.7	.497	1.4-3.7	.375	4.8-5.6	.856
7	Luol Deng, SF CHI	77	39.3	*17.5* 6.5-14.1	.458	1.4-4.1	.341	3.2-4.2	.750
8	Dorell Wright, SF	GS	78	38.2	*16.3* 5.9-13.7	.429	2.3-6.1	.383	2.2-2.8	.786
9	Gerald Wallace, SF	POR/CHA	68	37.9	*15.5* 5.4-11.9	.452	0.8-2.5	.322	3.9-5.2	.742
10	Wilson Chandler, SF	DEN/NY	69	33.4	*15.3* 6.0-13.2	.452	1.6-4.5	.354	1.8-2.2	.808

11	Caron Butler, SF	DAL	29	29.9	*15.0* 5.9-13.0	.450	1.0-2.2	.431	2.3-3.0	.773
12	Tayshaun Prince, SF	DET	73	33.3	*14.3* 6.2-13.1	.472	0.4-1.2	.352	1.5-2.2	.688
13	Grant Hill, SF PHX	75	30.2	*13.1* 4.9-10.2	.483	0.5-1.3	.404	2.7-3.2	.830
14	C.J. Miles, SF UTAH	75	25.2	*13.0* 4.7-11.7	.407	1.4-4.4	.322	2.1-2.6	.813
15	Corey Maggette, SF	MIL	62	21.7	*12.4* 3.9-8.7	.452	0.5-1.2	.364	4.1-5.0	.827
16	Shawn Marion, SF	DAL	75	28.0	*12.2* 5.3-10.2	.516	0.1-0.4	.161	1.6-2.0	.778
17	Nicolas Batum, SF	POR	77	31.5	*12.2* 4.5-10.0	.453	1.5-4.3	.344	1.7-2.0	.839
18	Carlos Delfino, SF	MIL	44	33.2	*12.2* 4.3-10.9	.395	2.2-6.0	.370	1.4-1.7	.800
19	Andrei Kirilenko, SF	UTAH	64	31.2	*11.7* 4.0-8.5	.467	0.6-1.5	.367	3.3-4.2	.770
20	Linas Kleiza, SF	TOR	39	26.5	*11.2* 4.6-10.4	.438	1.0-3.4	.298	1.1-1.7	.631
RK	PLAYER TEAM	GP	MPG	PTS	FGM-FGA	FG%	3PM-3PA	3P%	FTM-FTA	FT%
21	Mike Dunleavy, SF	IND	57	28.1	*11.1* 3.9-8.6	.455	1.7-4.2	.401	1.6-2.0	.795
22	Richard Jefferson, SF	SA	77	30.5	*11.0* 3.8-7.9	.475	1.7-3.8	.438	1.8-2.4	.749
23	Trevor Ariza, SF	NO	70	34.7	*10.9* 4.0-10.1	.394	1.1-3.7	.304	1.8-2.6	.701
24	Hedo Turkoglu, SF	ORL/PHX	77	31.3	*10.8* 4.0-8.8	.449	1.6-3.8	.418	1.3-1.9	.664
25	Marvin Williams, SF	ATL	61	29.1	*10.6* 3.9-8.3	.462	0.6-1.8	.327	2.3-2.7	.849
26	Jared Dudley, SF	PHX	77	25.7	*10.2* 3.5-7.4	.476	1.2-3.0	.403	1.9-2.6	.754
27	Martell Webster, SF	MIN	42	23.2	*9.7	*3.2-7.3	.444	1.2-2.9	.407	2.0-2.6	.773
28	Chase Budinger, SF	HOU	74	21.7	*9.4* 3.4-8.1	.422	1.1-3.4	.333	1.4-1.7	.841
29	Travis Outlaw, SF	NJ	77	28.9	*9.2* 3.3-8.8	.378	0.9-3.0	.290	1.7-2.2	.772
30	Reggie Williams, SF	GS	76	20.0	*9.1* 3.3-6.9	.469	1.3-3.0	.420	1.3-1.8	.746
RK	PLAYER TEAM	GP	MPG	PTS	FGM-FGA	FG%	3PM-3PA	3P%	FTM-FTA	FT%
31	Wesley Johnson, SF	MIN	75	26.0	*8.9* 3.4-8.5	.398	1.3-3.6	.353	0.8-1.2	.682
32	Omri Casspi, SF SAC	69	24.5	*8.8* 3.3-7.9	.414	1.3-3.6	.376	1.0-1.5	.673
33	Ron Artest, SF LAL	77	29.1	*8.5* 3.2-8.0	.406	1.0-2.9	.364	1.0-1.5	.655
34	Josh Howard, SF WSH	18	22.7	*8.4* 3.2-9.0	.358	0.4-1.6	.241	1.6-2.6	.617
35	Peja Stojakovic, SF	NO/DAL/TOR29	18.9	*8.4* 3.0-6.8	.439	1.7-4.0	.427	0.7-0.8	.913
36	Paul George, SF IND	57	20.7	*7.7* 2.9-6.4	.447	0.6-2.3	.271	1.4-1.8	.762
37	Al Thornton, SF GS/WSH	67	20.0	*7.6* 3.0-6.2	.480	0.1-0.4	.154	1.6-2.1	.771
38	Shane Battier, SF	HOU/MEM	78	29.2	*7.6* 2.8-6.3	.445	1.3-3.3	.378	0.7-1.1	.674
39	Austin Daye, SF DET	67	19.7	*7.5* 2.7-6.6	.412	1.0-2.4	.402	1.1-1.4	.777
40	Chris Douglas-Roberts, MIL	43	20.4* 7.5* 2.7-6.3	.428	0.3-1.0	.333	1.7-2.1	.831


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> I simply believe they're overrated when comparing players in a head to head match up.
> 
> And with that all being said, my opinion is an informed one, even if it's not popular with the contingent here. And I believe Ron Artest is better than Luol Deng. Among many other players that play the SF position. For such reasons I just mentioned.





Dornado said:


> While Artest's teams have mostly beaten the Bulls with Deng, Deng has done alright statistically head to head against Artest, including shooting 50% from the field.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, Deng is 25 years old and seems to be progressing...


Wait so match-ups is what matters? And as Dornado has pointed out then Deng is winning the matchups.

What's the next argument?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> OK here's an interesting exercise. These are the top 40 sf's in the NBA sorted by ppg. Please keep in mind Deng is easily one of if not the best defenders on this list. Please highlight the names of all players that are better SF's then Deng.
> 
> RK	PLAYER TEAM	GP	MPG	*PTS* FGM-FGA FG%	3PM-3PA 3P%	FTM-FTA FT%
> 
> 1 *Kevin Durant*, SF	OKC	73	39.3	*27.8* 9.2-19.8	.461	1.9-5.4	.353	7.6-8.6	.881
> 2	*LeBron James*, SF	MIA	75	38.7	*26.6* 9.6-18.8	.510	1.2-3.5	.328	6.3-8.3	.759
> 3	*Carmelo Anthony*, SF	DEN/NY	73	35.8	*25.5* 8.8-19.4	.455	1.1-3.0	.372	6.7-8.0	.838
> 4	*Danny Granger*, SF	IND	76	35.1	*20.4* 6.7-15.9	.423	1.9-5.2	.378	5.0-5.8	.849
> 5	*Rudy Gay*, SF MEM	54	39.9	*19.8* 7.6-16.1	.471	1.1-2.7	.396	3.6-4.5	.805
> 6	*Paul Pierce*, SF BOS	77	34.6	*18.8* 6.3-12.7	.497	1.4-3.7	.375	4.8-5.6	.856
> 7	Luol Deng, SF CHI	77	39.3	*17.5* 6.5-14.1	.458	1.4-4.1	.341	3.2-4.2	.750
> 8	Dorell Wright, SF	GS	78	38.2	*16.3* 5.9-13.7	.429	2.3-6.1	.383	2.2-2.8	.786
> 9	*Gerald Wallace*, SF	POR/CHA	68	37.9	*15.5* 5.4-11.9	.452	0.8-2.5	.322	3.9-5.2	.742
> 10	*Wilson Chandler*, SF	DEN/NY	69	33.4	*15.3* 6.0-13.2	.452	1.6-4.5	.354	1.8-2.2	.808
> 
> 11	*Caron Butler*, SF	DAL	29	29.9	*15.0* 5.9-13.0	.450	1.0-2.2	.431	2.3-3.0	.773
> 12	Tayshaun Prince, SF	DET	73	33.3	*14.3* 6.2-13.1	.472	0.4-1.2	.352	1.5-2.2	.688
> 13	*Grant Hill*, SF PHX	75	30.2	*13.1* 4.9-10.2	.483	0.5-1.3	.404	2.7-3.2	.830
> 14	C.J. Miles, SF UTAH	75	25.2	*13.0* 4.7-11.7	.407	1.4-4.4	.322	2.1-2.6	.813
> 15	Corey Maggette, SF	MIL	62	21.7	*12.4* 3.9-8.7	.452	0.5-1.2	.364	4.1-5.0	.827
> 16	Shawn Marion, SF	DAL	75	28.0	*12.2* 5.3-10.2	.516	0.1-0.4	.161	1.6-2.0	.778
> 17	*Nicolas Batum*, SF	POR	77	31.5	*12.2* 4.5-10.0	.453	1.5-4.3	.344	1.7-2.0	.839
> 18	Carlos Delfino, SF	MIL	44	33.2	*12.2* 4.3-10.9	.395	2.2-6.0	.370	1.4-1.7	.800
> 19	Andrei Kirilenko, SF	UTAH	64	31.2	*11.7* 4.0-8.5	.467	0.6-1.5	.367	3.3-4.2	.770
> 20	Linas Kleiza, SF	TOR	39	26.5	*11.2* 4.6-10.4	.438	1.0-3.4	.298	1.1-1.7	.631
> RK	PLAYER TEAM	GP	MPG	PTS	FGM-FGA	FG%	3PM-3PA	3P%	FTM-FTA	FT%
> 21	Mike Dunleavy, SF	IND	57	28.1	*11.1* 3.9-8.6	.455	1.7-4.2	.401	1.6-2.0	.795
> 22	*Richard Jefferson*, SF	SA	77	30.5	*11.0* 3.8-7.9	.475	1.7-3.8	.438	1.8-2.4	.749
> 23	Trevor Ariza, SF	NO	70	34.7	*10.9* 4.0-10.1	.394	1.1-3.7	.304	1.8-2.6	.701
> 24	*Hedo Turkoglu*, SF	ORL/PHX	77	31.3	*10.8* 4.0-8.8	.449	1.6-3.8	.418	1.3-1.9	.664
> 25	Marvin Williams, SF	ATL	61	29.1	*10.6* 3.9-8.3	.462	0.6-1.8	.327	2.3-2.7	.849
> 26	Jared Dudley, SF	PHX	77	25.7	*10.2* 3.5-7.4	.476	1.2-3.0	.403	1.9-2.6	.754
> 27	Martell Webster, SF	MIN	42	23.2	*9.7	*3.2-7.3	.444	1.2-2.9	.407	2.0-2.6	.773
> 28	Chase Budinger, SF	HOU	74	21.7	*9.4* 3.4-8.1	.422	1.1-3.4	.333	1.4-1.7	.841
> 29	Travis Outlaw, SF	NJ	77	28.9	*9.2* 3.3-8.8	.378	0.9-3.0	.290	1.7-2.2	.772
> 30	Reggie Williams, SF	GS	76	20.0	*9.1* 3.3-6.9	.469	1.3-3.0	.420	1.3-1.8	.746
> RK	PLAYER TEAM	GP	MPG	PTS	FGM-FGA	FG%	3PM-3PA	3P%	FTM-FTA	FT%
> 31	Wesley Johnson, SF	MIN	75	26.0	*8.9* 3.4-8.5	.398	1.3-3.6	.353	0.8-1.2	.682
> 32	Omri Casspi, SF SAC	69	24.5	*8.8* 3.3-7.9	.414	1.3-3.6	.376	1.0-1.5	.673
> 33	*Ron Artest*, SF LAL	77	29.1	*8.5* 3.2-8.0	.406	1.0-2.9	.364	1.0-1.5	.655
> 34	Josh Howard, SF WSH	18	22.7	*8.4* 3.2-9.0	.358	0.4-1.6	.241	1.6-2.6	.617
> 35	Peja Stojakovic, SF	NO/DAL/TOR29	18.9	*8.4* 3.0-6.8	.439	1.7-4.0	.427	0.7-0.8	.913
> 36	Paul George, SF IND	57	20.7	*7.7* 2.9-6.4	.447	0.6-2.3	.271	1.4-1.8	.762
> 37	Al Thornton, SF GS/WSH	67	20.0	*7.6* 3.0-6.2	.480	0.1-0.4	.154	1.6-2.1	.771
> 38	Shane Battier, SF	HOU/MEM	78	29.2	*7.6* 2.8-6.3	.445	1.3-3.3	.378	0.7-1.1	.674
> 39	Austin Daye, SF DET	67	19.7	*7.5* 2.7-6.6	.412	1.0-2.4	.402	1.1-1.4	.777
> 40	Chris Douglas-Roberts, MIL	43	20.4* 7.5* 2.7-6.3	.428	0.3-1.0	.333	1.7-2.1	.831


Done.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> Wait so match-ups is what matters? And as Dornado has pointed out then Deng is winning the matchups.
> 
> What's the next argument?


Is he winning ? Looks like to me reading that statistical break down that Ron is actually the one winning.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Done.


looks kinda silly doesn't it?

you have chosen a bunch of players that play worse D or simply no D at all and are far less productive offensively then Deng. For what purpose? Why are they better? Not better offensively... certainly not better defensively... 

Anyways clearly a ridiculous amount of bias going on here. I think you realize that. No point in this crazy discussion.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Is he winning ? Looks like to me reading that statistical break down that Ron is actually the one winning.


:laugh: yes he's winning.

He's scoring 3 more points per game and shooting 10% higher. The gap in FG% alone is enormous. All it looks like to me is that Ron Artest can't score on Deng. (lower ppg then his career average and much lower fg% then his career average) While Deng is doing better against Artest then he does against the rest of the league (much higher fg% then his career, more ppg then his career average).

One of the few things that keeps this from being even more lopsided is the FT%'s which unless you believe that their head to head has some sort of magical effect on FT shooting then this argument would be even more lopsided.

If only Deng could play Artest every night, we would have a far more efficient scorer on the wing...


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> :laugh: yes he's winning.
> 
> He's scoring 3 more points per game and shooting 10% higher. The gap in FG% alone is enormous. All it looks like to me is that Ron Artest can't score on Deng. (lower ppg then his career average and much lower fg% then his career average) While Deng is doing better against Artest then he does against the rest of the league (much higher fg% then his career, more ppg then his career average).
> 
> One of the few things that keeps this from being even more lopsided is the FT%'s which unless you believe that their head to head has some sort of magical effect on FT shooting then this argument would be even more lopsided.
> 
> If only Deng could play Artest every night, we would have a far more efficient scorer on the wing...


Except that Deng guards Kobe, not Artest.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> looks kinda silly doesn't it?
> 
> you have chosen a bunch of players that play worse D or simply no D at all and are far less productive offensively then Deng. For what purpose? Why are they better? Not better offensively... certainly not better defensively...
> 
> Anyways clearly a ridiculous amount of bias going on here. I think you realize that. No point in this crazy discussion.


Well...that's your opinion in evaluating those players, not mine. 

Who knows man, it's an opinion I have. Obviously you don't respect it with your constant negative digs, "crazy discussion" ridiculous amount of bias" "looks kind of silly doesn't it?"

No it doesn't seem silly to me, because I'm not trying to be funny.

Another player I would take over Deng, would be Mbah a Moute, and he's also better defensively. 

Just my two coppers.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> :laugh: yes he's winning.
> 
> He's scoring 3 more points per game and shooting 10% higher. The gap in FG% alone is enormous. All it looks like to me is that Ron Artest can't score on Deng. (lower ppg then his career average and much lower fg% then his career average) While Deng is doing better against Artest then he does against the rest of the league (much higher fg% then his career, more ppg then his career average).
> 
> One of the few things that keeps this from being even more lopsided is the FT%'s which unless you believe that their head to head has some sort of magical effect on FT shooting then this argument would be even more lopsided.
> 
> If only Deng could play Artest every night, we would have a far more efficient scorer on the wing...


I think you missed my point, the wins are substantially for Artest, and the losses are substantially for Deng. But I hear ya man, here you go again about stats.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Pay Ton said:


> Deng is absolutely more important. There's no question.
> 
> Without Boozer, we lose valuable, if inconsistent, post scoring (because on some nights Booz doesn't even score his points from the post).
> 
> Without Deng, we lose our defensive anchor, as well as scoring.
> 
> That's not to downplay Boozer's potential value. "If" he did what was asked of him and what he's capable of, Boozer's post scoring would be huge for us in the playoffs. We need those easy buckets immensely. And part of his unreliability is the reason I'm concerned about the Bulls against the Magic. I certainly think we're good enough to beat the Magic, but Boozer's inconsistency in the post makes it a little more questionable for me.
> 
> But still...Deng is more important.



Deng is not more important lol. I think many here is really overrating Deng. Sure he's a very good defender but he's not more important. The bulls needs a true post up pf who is a great scorer in which they got in boozer. Without a post up threat in Boozer, the bulls would be in deep sh$t in the playoffs. Boozer is not a 1 on 1 defender but he's a real good help defender. He's a good rebounder, good at pick and rolls and a real good underrated passer.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

If the Bulls play the Lakers, I doubt that Artest and Deng will be matched up on one another. Deng will probably be on Kobe, no? So I don't know why their head to head numbers really matter.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I would imagine that Bogans and Brewer will spend plenty of time on Bryant should they meet.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> If the Bulls play the Lakers, I doubt that Artest and Deng will be matched up on one another. Deng will probably be on Kobe, no? So I don't know why their head to head numbers really matter.


I maintain we all still sound like idiots. :krazy::laugh:::razz:.



> Last edited by Dornado : Today at 10:26 PM. Reason: insulting other members/personal attack


WE can't even be Facetious on this site anymore ? WTF, you noticed the emoticons right ??? Come on Dornando I'm obviously gumming it up when I said caseyrh was the biggest idiot of us all. Please take my comment with a grain of salt.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> I maintain we all still sound like idiots. :krazy::laugh:::razz:.
> 
> 
> 
> WE can't even be Facetious on this site anymore ? WTF, you noticed the emoticons right ??? Come on Dornando I'm obviously gumming it up when I said caseyrh was the biggest idiot of us all. Please take my comment with a grain of salt.


23AJ... I know it is a fine line, but singling out other members for insults is against the rules (and I'm supposed to enforce the rules). I chose not to impose an infraction and instead just pulled the offending text out of the post because it was right near that fine line...

In the future if you have an issue with how a post has been edited by a moderator please address it by Private Messaging the moderator. Do not edit over a moderator's edit.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Maybe time to get this thread back on track...


So... who wins the MVP award?


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Deng is not more important lol. I think many here is really overrating Deng. Sure he's a very good defender but he's not more important. The bulls needs a true post up pf who is a great scorer in which they got in boozer. Without a post up threat in Boozer, the bulls would be in deep sh$t in the playoffs. *Boozer is not a 1 on 1 defender but he's a real good help defender.* He's a good rebounder, good at pick and rolls and a real good underrated passer.


No he's not, lol.

Make no mistake...Boozer is not good at any facet of defense.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Pay Ton said:


> No he's not, lol.
> 
> Make no mistake...Boozer is not good at any facet of defense.


Yeah, I think it is a combination of some physical limitations and a lack of focus/awareness... a bit puzzling given that he played his college ball at Duke under Coach K and much of his Pro career under Jerry Sloan... but he definitely doesn't "get it" on that end of the floor.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dornado said:


> So... who wins the MVP award?


Rose because he's the most fun player to watch on the best team in the East...so far as I can tell.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Rose because he's the most fun player to watch on the best team in the East...so far as I can tell.


Just because he's the "most fun", huh? I thought it was because he was their best player.

He definitely doesn't have the best resume for an MVP, but I agree he'll probably win it. Nobody really dominated the league this year I suppose... I think Rose gets it because he has seemingly willed his team to victory so many times this year.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dornado said:


> Just because he's the "most fun", huh? I thought it was because he was their best player.


He's their best player because he's their most fun. The case for Derrick Rose consists of this: "just watch him play!"
No stats. No internal logic. Just watch him because if you watch him he's so much the center of your attention that you somehow can't help but get MVP tourettes.

I'm fine with it though. I was an Iverson fan. I was happy Iverson won the MVP that year. This is just karma for that. And really the runner up is Dwight anyways, and I'm fine with Dwight being denied an MVP. Derrick Rose is a player I like. Howard, not so much. 

But it's a fun conversation to have I think. Because we have so much information now with advanced stats, it's much more of a conversation than it was 10 years ago where you just looked at PPG and yelled at each other back and forth.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> He's their best player because he's their most fun. The case for Derrick Rose consists of this: "just watch him play!"
> No stats. No internal logic. Just watch him because if you watch him he's so much the center of your attention that you somehow can't help but get MVP tourettes.
> 
> I'm fine with it though. I was an Iverson fan. I was happy Iverson won the MVP that year. This is just karma for that. And really the runner up is Dwight anyways, and I'm fine with Dwight being denied an MVP. Derrick Rose is a player I like. Howard, not so much.
> 
> But it's a fun conversation to have I think. Because we have so much information now with advanced stats, it's much more of a conversation than it was 10 years ago where you just looked at PPG and yelled at each other back and forth.


My problem with the advanced stats argument, is that Rose actually has very good advanced stats... At least compared to the leaders, I mean this is certainly a down year for Lebron which has put him in the same class as guys like Wade and Howard everybody else is right there muddled up with Rose. 

Plus it's not the best player award anyways. 

People act like Rose is this wholly inefficient plauer. When actually he has been elite in those areas.

His PER=8th in the NBA, VA=6th in the NBA, EWA=5th in the NBA. He actually ranks ahead of Kobe in 2 of those 3 categories. One of the guys that a lot of people think deserves it more.

I mean that's three really high rankings. A little more substance then just "fun to watch" no?

The guy who is number 1 across the Board is Lebron (im sure he always will be also) no way Lebron wins MVP this year. So once you set that precedent that it doesn't go to the best player then is it really so bad to give it to the 5th-8th best player? Because he is the leader of the most surprising team in the NBA? And the team with probably the best or second best regular season? And having an excellent statistical season?


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Who cares if Kobe ranks ahead of or behind Rose in any categorie though? When it's clear that's not the basis for the decision. Rose is no higher than 5th in any of the stats you referenced. So we're talking about an MVP who it can legitimately be argued is behind five other people in terms of the season he has had?

Clearly a Rose MVP rush is nothing to do with stats. I mean do you think Rose's candicacy would be at all affected if he averaged 2 less points or 2 less assists per game? It wouldn't seem so.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Who cares if Kobe ranks ahead of or behind Rose in any categorie though? When it's clear that's not the basis for the decision. Rose is no higher than 5th in any of the stats you referenced. So we're talking about an MVP who* it can legitimately be argued is behind five other people in terms of the season he has had?*
> 
> Clearly a Rose MVP rush is nothing to do with stats. *I mean do you think Rose's candicacy would be at all affected if he averaged 2 less points or 2 less assists per game?* It wouldn't seem so.


The first bolded argument is only legitimate if you assume that it is the same 5 people ahead of him in all of those rankings.

As for the second bolded part... you are taking this to an extreme for the sake of your argument it seems... Rose with two less points and two less assists isn't nearly as productive a player and isn't likely to be in the discussion (nor are the Bulls likely chasing 60 wins in that case). Rose is getting consideration because of a combination of factors - wins, statistics, his impact on the Bulls chances at winning on any given night and of course, as you mentioned, the "wow" factor. To focus in on any one of those factors at the exclusion of the others is arguing something other than who should be MVP...


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Pay Ton said:


> No he's not, lol.
> 
> Make no mistake...Boozer is not good at any facet of defense.


Boozer = Amare on defense


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Pay Ton said:


> No he's not, lol.
> 
> Make no mistake...Boozer is not good at any facet of defense.


Well...defensive rebounding, if you count that. 

I'd like to think Boozer's rebounding counts for something because it lets Noah and Deng use their defensive instincts to roam around and make things happen, knowing Boozer is there to gobble up rebounds and take up space under the basket. 

Though otherwise I agree, he it terrible at every other facet of D.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dornado said:


> The first bolded argument is only legitimate if you assume that it is the same 5 people ahead of him in all of those rankings.
> 
> As for the second bolded part... you are taking this to an extreme for the sake of your argument it seems... Rose with two less points and two less assists isn't nearly as productive a player and isn't likely to be in the discussion (nor are the Bulls likely chasing 60 wins in that case). Rose is getting consideration because of a combination of factors - wins, statistics, his impact on the Bulls chances at winning on any given night and of course, as you mentioned, the "wow" factor. To focus in on any one of those factors at the exclusion of the others is arguing something other than who should be MVP...


Yes, spot on. People sometimes forget that statistics are intended to be a dependent variable. They are measures of performance (and imperfect measure that, which at the end of the day are just a 90% solution of performance measurement)

So, if Rose is scoring less and generating fewer assists, in most cases that would simply be reflecting worse performance by him and his team. And is therefore less of an MVP candidate.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Hyperion said:


> Boozer = Amare on defense


No way. Boozer is just awful at contesting shots. The rest of his D isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. And the main reason he never challenges shots is because he always stays on his man to box out and defensive rebound. So at least he is doing something. Is he well below average? definately. But nowhere near what Amare does out there.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Who cares if Kobe ranks ahead of or behind Rose in any categorie though? When it's clear that's not the basis for the decision.


We have a lot of laker fans on here that think Kobe should win, because he is having the far "superior" individual season. I was simply making one point to address them. Not intended for the bigger picture of MVP.


> Rose is no higher than 5th in any of the stats you referenced. So we're talking about an MVP who it can legitimately be argued is behind five other people in terms of the season he has had?


But you act like he has no statistical argument when in fact he does. THere are only basically 5 guys who you can say have had a better year statistically then him... That means Rose has Elite advanced stats. So why knock him for not having the stats when in fact he does? 


> Clearly a Rose MVP rush is nothing to do with stats.


Nothing? Clearly it has a lot to do with stats. Just not everything. Is it your belief that only the number one statistical player can be MVP? So every year it should go to the guy with the best individual season statistically? If not the best individual season statistically then what, can 2nd best can be in the running? How about 3rd or 4th or 5th or 6th? see Now we are already at Rose. That was quick...


> I mean do you think Rose's candicacy would be at all affected if he averaged 2 less points or 2 less assists per game? It wouldn't seem so.


Yeah I think he would have no chance at MVP. Fundamentally Rose's MVP is based on his stats. His Stats prove that he is by far the most important player on the Bulls, And one of the very best in the NBA. The bulls have certainly had the most surprising season in the NBA. And certainly the best season in the East, no worse then the second best season in the NBA. All of these things play a big factor.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



yodurk said:


> Well...defensive rebounding, if you count that.
> 
> I'd like to think Boozer's rebounding counts for something because it lets Noah and Deng use their defensive instincts to roam around and make things happen, knowing Boozer is there to gobble up rebounds and take up space under the basket.
> 
> Though otherwise I agree, he it terrible at every other facet of D.


Touche'. Boozer's defensive rebounding counts for something.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> Nothing? Clearly it has a lot to do with stats. Just not everything. Is it your belief that only the number one statistical player can be MVP? So every year it should go to the guy with the best individual season statistically? If not the best individual season statistically then what, can 2nd best can be in the running? How about 3rd or 4th or 5th or 6th? see Now we are already at Rose. That was quick...


1st or 2nd, yeah. It would certainly make the MVP mean something, and streamline NBA history a bit. You would be able to look back at the MVP list and see "oh that guy was the best player in the league that year". Which is kind of what I think historically we want the MVP to be.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> 1st or 2nd, yeah. It would certainly make the MVP mean something, and streamline NBA history a bit. You would be able to look back at the MVP list and see "oh that guy was the best player in the league that year". Which is kind of what I think historically we want the MVP to be.


For that to happen, how many guys would lose their MVP's and how many of these things would you concede to Jordan ?


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Can we cop out like Time magazine did for Person of the Year and nominate us, the fans?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

It's kind of sad how situations dictate this award so much. Not only do you have to win X amount of games (54 or so), but you can't play with another great player, and you have to be having a better season than you did last year. Among other things...

It's not surprising that looking through this narrow scope will yield an undeserving candidate.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> It's kind of sad how situations dictate this award so much. Not only do you have to win X amount of games (54 or so), but you can't play with another great player, and you have to be having a better season than you did last year. Among other things...
> 
> It's not surprising that looking through this narrow scope will yield an undeserving candidate.


Miami is having a better season than last, has won 54 games, and Rose is playing amongst not one great player, but a few very good players dot dot dot


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> Miami is having a better season than last, has won 54 games, and Rose is playing amongst not one great player, but a few very good players dot dot dot


I agree, but that's not the perception.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I agree, but that's not the perception.


Um, you're MVP pick is Lebron, and you're saying its sad that Rose is going to be MVP because of above criteria, and Miami fits 2 of 3 of your criteria, so I don't get you're point. You also said its clear Lebron is better than Wade except to the one Miami homer in the awards thread, so you points don't have merit.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> Um, you're MVP pick is Lebron, and you're saying its sad that Rose is going to be MVP because of above criteria, and Miami fits 2 of 3 of your criteria, so I don't get you're point. You also said its clear Lebron is better than Wade except to the one Miami homer in the awards thread, so you points don't have merit.


The perception is that Miami underachieved, because they have three superstars, but the reality is that they don't have anything else beyond that. LeBron is penalized for having two great teammates as opposed to Rose having a whole rotation full of merely good teammates. The perception is that Rose has carried Chicago with not much help, but the reality is that he has a very good group of players and a great defensive system that has won them the bulk of their games this year, and that defense isn't led or anchored by him in any way.

For the record, I'd probably go with Howard for MVP this year. LeBron has had a down year trying to get adjusted to the new situation (although he has still been more valuable than Rose). Howard has anchored a less talented team on both ends and that team really isn't far behind Miami/Chicago.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> The perception is that Miami underachieved, because they have three superstars, but the reality is that they don't have anything else beyond that. LeBron is penalized for having two great teammates as opposed to Rose having a whole rotation full of merely good teammates. The perception is that Rose has carried Chicago with not much help, but the reality is that he has a very good group of players and a great defensive system that has won them the bulk of their games this year, and that defense isn't led or anchored by him in any way.
> 
> For the record, I'd probably go with Howard for MVP this year. LeBron has had a down year trying to get adjusted to the new situation (although he has still been more valuable than Rose). Howard has anchored a less talented team on both ends and that team really isn't far behind Miami/Chicago.


WTF. Let's not forget Bron claiming teaming up with Wade/Bosh he would win seven championships. Bron created his own hype and perception when deciding to team up with a player just as good as him and another established superstar in Bosh. If you can't live up to the expectations you announce in a public arena full of thousands of fans, you shouldn't build up the hype. And Bron wasn't alone. You had guys like Jeff Van Gundy banging the Miami Heat drum as well this off season, even suggesting that Bron/Wade/Bosh Heat would dismantle the 72 win Jordan Bulls regular season record. 

Also why the hell are you crying about the MVP criteria now ? Just because your man crush LeBron isn't going to win the award ? You realize he's far from the only great player to not get the award even though the consensus says they're the best players in the league. We've all known the MVP award is about more than just being the best individual player. Otherwise Kobe would have won it a few more times.

At any rate Derrick Rose is a stud, has this Bulls team set to contend for Championships, and he's not a stat guy. He's not looking to dominate the game statistically, he cares more about the team getting wins anyway possible. I like that mold of a player. It says a lot about his character, and that his only mission is team first. The MVP is in good hands.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> The perception is that Miami underachieved, because they have three superstars, but the reality is that they don't have anything else beyond that. LeBron is penalized for having two great teammates as opposed to Rose having a whole rotation full of merely good teammates. The perception is that Rose has carried Chicago with not much help, but the reality is that he has a very good group of players and a great defensive system that has won them the bulk of their games this year, and that defense isn't led or anchored by him in any way.
> 
> For the record, I'd probably go with Howard for MVP this year. LeBron has had a down year trying to get adjusted to the new situation (although he has still been more valuable than Rose). Howard has anchored a less talented team on both ends and that team really isn't far behind Miami/Chicago.


Well you changed your pick within 5 hours, which is cool, since you said its either Lebron or Howard. Lebron isn't being penalized for having two great teammates, he's being penalized for being a jagoff and for not living up to his own damn expectations(not 5,not 6, not 7, etc.). Basketball is entertainment, not a science, and Derrick Rose not only gives entertainment, but the biggest result of scientific data, WINS. You can give Lebron excuses till he goes in the grave, but bottom line, wins are what matters. He gave himself the best chance to win by surrounding himself with two max contract players, if he can't win now, sorry, but there are no more excuses.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> WTF. Let's not forget Bron claiming teaming up with Wade/Bosh he would win seven championships. Bron created his own hype and perception when deciding to team up with a player just as good as him and another established superstar in Bosh. If you can't live up to the expectations you announce in a public arena full of thousands of fans, you shouldn't build up the hype. And Bron wasn't alone. You had guys like Jeff Van Gundy banging the Miami Heat drum as well this off season, even suggesting that Bron/Wade/Bosh Heat would dismantle the 72 win Jordan Bulls regular season record.


They did build their own expectations. That doesn't change the point. Also, for the record, they also said it was take time to get adjusted. The media created their unreal expectations this year, not them. They were all on the same page about the process. 



23AJ said:


> Also why the hell are you crying about the MVP criteria now ? Just because your man crush LeBron isn't going to win the award ? You realize he's far from the only great player to not get the award even though the consensus says they're the best players in the league. We've all known the MVP award is about more than just being the best individual player. Otherwise Kobe would have won it a few more times.


I always argue about MVP criteria when undeserving candidates win. I did it when Nash won over Kobe, and I'll do it now. Also, let's not talk about man-crushes either, because you're a few Rose posts away from posting a picture of him naked. Ease up a bit. 



23AJ said:


> At any rate Derrick Rose is a stud, has this Bulls team set to contend for Championships, and he's not a stat guy. He's not looking to dominate the game statistically, he cares more about the team getting wins anyway possible. I like that mold of a player. It says a lot about his character, and that his only mission is team first. The MVP is in good hands.


They better win the title. MVP caliber players who don't at least get to the finals are considered disappointments, especially as the 1st seed. I hope he can live up to that, because he is a good kid who doesn't deserve to be criticized because a bunch of idiots placed unrealistic expectations on him.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> Well you changed your pick within 5 hours, which is cool, since you said its either Lebron or Howard.


Yeah, saying I'd give it to Howard, then LeBron is definitely flip-flopping from saying I'd give it to Howard/LeBron. You got me. 



DunkMaster said:


> he's being penalized for being a jagoff and for not living up to his own damn expectations(not 5,not 6, not 7, etc.).


So he is being penalized for not winning 7 championships in one regular season? I knew his expectations were high, but damn. 



DunkMaster said:


> Basketball is entertainment, not a science, and Derrick Rose not only gives entertainment, but the biggest result of scientific data, WINS. You can give Lebron excuses till he goes in the grave, but bottom line, wins are what matters.


This is where you guys turn into hypocrites. If wins are what matters, why not give it to the best player on a better team? Of course, now you'll want to talk about individual value.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Tell you what, I haven't had Rose as my MVP pick all season, but this kid might be swaying me all of a sudden. He absolutely dismantled Boston tonight and the Bulls are running away with the East.

Regardless of who picks who, just remember you play to win the game. Wins do matter. They're not the whole story but they are a very big part. There's no disputing that Rose has the Bulls winning games, and anyone paying attention to him knows he doesn't give a rat's *** about statistics. Him and Thibodeau are 110% on the same page and they don't care how they win, as long as they win.

That is one factor where nobody else in the L right now can claim to have topped Rose this season.

That said, I may need to just wait until this season is over to make my MVP pick. It's really that close, even though I'd bet the farm Rose is going to win it.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

What's funny is, as of two days ago, Miami was still favored to come out of the east according to Vegas (haven't checked any more recently).


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Yeah, saying I'd give it to Howard, then LeBron is definitely flip-flopping from saying I'd give it to Howard/LeBron. You got me.
> 
> 
> 
> So he is being penalized for not winning 7 championships in one regular season? I knew his expectations were high, but damn.
> 
> 
> 
> This is where you guys turn into hypocrites. If wins are what matters, why not give it to the best player on a better team? Of course, now you'll want to talk about individual value.


Hey, I'm a Chicago fan, not going to shy away from that. If I was a Magic fan, would be voting for Howard, if I was one of the few Miami fans, I'd be picking Wade or Lebron. Its a very close vote IMO. I think its a combination of wins, stats, and entertainment. Between the 5 or 6 possible candidates, Rose has the best overall average rank in those categories, which is where my vote goes.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I think last night just prove why Rose is the mvp. The bulls are 1 win away of having the best record in eastern conference.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Yeah Rose is going to win it. Should be Dwight, but whatever. He's one of my favorite players and I'm happy for the guy.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Yeah Rose is going to win it. Should be Dwight, but whatever. He's one of my favorite players and I'm happy for the guy.


My problem with Dwight winning the MVP is that he'll win the DPOY as well, Dwight has been great but no way has he been so good that he's the MVP and DPOY. You would have to have an historic season for that.


----------



## Ben

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

^Why? Howard's main reason why he's so valuable is his defense. If he won the MVP, he'd have to be the DPOY in my eyes.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Howard and Rose match up today. Should be a very good game, and we get to see the top two MVP candidates.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



ßen said:


> ^Why? Howard's main reason why he's so valuable is his defense. If he won the MVP, he'd have to be the DPOY in my eyes.


To win the MVP and the DPOY for one you would have to be the best player in the league by far. I think Jordan was the last player to win MVP and DPOY. As great of a season howard is having he is not by far the best player int he league. That goes to Lebron, and Howard may not even be the second best. While Dwight Howard is scoring 4 points more per than than last year, he's shooting and a worse FG%, averaging less blocks (not by a lot though), he's not averaging a career high in rebounds (averaged more in 07-08). He's been great this year, not good enough to be the MVP and the DPOY


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Howard is matching up with a hotel room today


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Diable said:


> Howard is matching up with a hotel room today


What a silly dude. It's clear I didn't know Howard wasn't going to be playing last night. Stop being such a goon.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Actually, I'm going to rephrase my last post. LeBron should win the MVP because he's the best player in the league. In my opinion the award should always go to the best player and not the best story. It's a shame that Steve Nash has as many as Kobe and Shaq combined. That being said LeBron was never going to win coming into the season (barring 70 wins) and so that's why I think that Dwight should win, because he's had the best season out of any player that had a shot.

Rose should make the first team though, he's had one hell of a season.


----------



## PauloCatarino

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Actually, I'm going to rephrase my last post. LeBron should win the MVP because he's the best player in the league. In my opinion the award should always go to the best player and not the best story.


So what you are saying is that the MVP Award should NOT be the MVP Award, but the Award For the Best Player in the NBA, right?
Well, good luck with that.



> It's a shame that Steve Nash has as many as Kobe and Shaq combined. That being said LeBron was never going to win coming into the season (barring 70 wins) and so that's why I think that Dwight should win, because he's had the best season out of any player that had a shot.


Please keep in mind D-Ho is playing for the 6th bet team in the league...



> Rose should make the first team though, he's had one hell of a season.


Wade and Kobe should make first team as guards


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



PauloCatarino said:


> So what you are saying is that the MVP Award should NOT be the MVP Award, but the Award For the Best Player in the NBA, right?
> Well, good luck with that.
> 
> 
> 
> Please keep in mind D-Ho is playing for the 6th bet team in the league...
> 
> 
> 
> Wade and Kobe should make first team as guards


That's exactly what I'm saying. Giving the MVP to the best story is stupid.

I don't care how good his team is as long as he makes the playoffs. Kobe's Lakers won 45 and 42 games during '06 and '07 and he absolutely should have been the MVP both years.

I wouldn't be overly pissed if Wade snubbed Rose. He's had a great season. But gun to my head I'm giving the nod to Rose/Kobe.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

if the Bulls end up getting the best record, I guess I can live with the whole "best player on the best team" arguement for MVP. A month ago when Rose was crowned MVP and the Bulls were nowhere near the best record I couldn't get with just "best player on a team that people underestimated". But best player on best team is a time proven rubric, and the Bulls should get recognition in the awards for doing that.


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



O2K said:


> My problem with Dwight winning the MVP is that he'll win the DPOY as well, Dwight has been great but no way has he been so good that he's the MVP and DPOY. You would have to have an historic season for that.


Umm... what? So if he's the most valuable player and the best defensive player he shouldn't win both because it's not "historic"? Wouldn't it be historic that he IS the most valuable and best defensive player in the league?


----------



## Seanzie

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> if the Bulls end up getting the best record, I guess I can live with the whole "best player on the best team" arguement for MVP. A month ago when Rose was crowned MVP and the Bulls were nowhere near the best record I couldn't get with just "best player on a team that people underestimated". But best player on best team is a time proven rubric, and the Bulls should get recognition in the awards for doing that.


I'm just wondering what people are going to say IF (again, I must stress IF) the Bulls lose in the second round and aren't even competitive.

You could say that the same thing happened to LeBron last year, but he's clearly the best player in the league. Rose is not.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Yeah, Rose is going to get **** on if the Bulls don't make it to the ECF at least.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Come on people lets face reality, Rose has once again proving why he's mvp. Whoever disagree are either blind as a bat or don't follow much of nba basketball this season. Forget about Howard, Kobe, Lebron, this year is clearly Rose hands down.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Seanzie said:


> I'm just wondering what people are going to say IF (again, I must stress IF) the Bulls lose in the second round and aren't even competitive.
> 
> You could say that the same thing happened to LeBron last year, but he's clearly the best player in the league. Rose is not.


Another built in excuse for LeBron James. It's okay to lose in the second round if you're the consensus best player.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Seanzie said:


> Umm... what? So if he's the most valuable player and the best defensive player he shouldn't win both because it's not "historic"? Wouldn't it be historic that he IS the most valuable and best defensive player in the league?


How many times has a player won MVP and DPOY in the same season? And who has won it?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



O2K said:


> How many times has a player won MVP and DPOY in the same season? And who has won it?


I know the greatest ever did it once.


----------



## Floods

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



O2K said:


> How many times has a player won MVP and DPOY in the same season? And who has won it?


Why does it matter?

This is why opinion awards suck, meaningless crap like this seeps into the discussion.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> Another built in excuse for LeBron James. It's okay to lose in the second round if you're the consensus best player.


I think your missing his point.

People gave Lebron crap for his meltdown in the 2nd round last year, they however didn't question that he was the MVP because he was so dominate that regular season. Rose however won't get that kinda of respect if they lose since he really hasn't separated himself from the other contenders(Dwight and Bron.)


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> I think your missing his point.
> 
> People gave Lebron crap for his meltdown in the 2nd round last year, they however didn't question that he was the MVP because he was so dominating that regular season. Rose however won't get that since he really hasn't separate himself from the other contenders(Dwight and Bron.)


Of course you would think that. Take a look back at all your comments directed to me. Anything I say you're flippant to.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Come on people lets face reality, Rose has once again proving why he's mvp. Whoever disagree are either blind as a bat or don't follow much of nba basketball this season. Forget about Howard, Kobe, Lebron, this year is clearly Rose hands down.


Rose isn't the best player in the league, hell, he's not even a top five player. But he's had a great year and is a great story for the media. He's clearly going to win it but that doesn't mean that he deserves it.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Rose isn't the best player in the league, hell, he's not even a top five player. But he's had a great year and is a great story for the media. He's clearly going to win it but that doesn't mean that he deserves it.


He's the best point guard in the league, has the best team in the East, and may end up having the best team in the league at the end of the season. He's got excellent individual statistics. The Bulls went from a 40 win team to a 60 win team. Lets please keep in mind, that the MVP award is not the best player in the league award. No matter how much you think it should be.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



O2K said:


> How many times has a player won MVP and DPOY in the same season? And who has won it?


Why should that matter? Dwight is the best defender in the league bar none and that's a huge reason why he's arguably had the best (non LeBron) year. That's like saying Kobe shouldn't have won any MVPs because Jordan was the only other two guard to ever get the award. It just doesn't make sense.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Woah, some of you guys are taking it a bit to far with the Rose love.

He is a great player and will only get better, but he isn't the best PG in the league, that is still a healthy Chris Paul and I would still rank Deron Williams ahead of him.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> Woah, some of you guys are taking it a bit to far with the Rose love.
> 
> He is a great player and will only get better, but he isn't the best PG in the league, that is still a healthy Chris Paul and I would still rank Deron Williams ahead of him.


LOL yeah man Paul and Williams really out played Rose this season.


----------



## Floods

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Williams and Paul are better point guards but Rose is the best player of the three, if that makes sense.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Why should that matter? Dwight is the best defender in the league bar none and that's a huge reason why he's arguably had the best (non LeBron) year. That's like saying Kobe shouldn't have won any MVPs because Jordan was the only other two guard to ever get the award. It just doesn't make sense.


Not really. There is no doubt the season Howard has had. He's the best defensive player in the league hence the the DPOY. And we are not talking about position at all. Your example is poor. You can try again though.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> LOL yeah man Paul and Williams really out played Rose* this season*.


Yeah, this season.

One season doesn't make you the best.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> He's the best point guard in the league, has the best team in the East, and may end up having the best team in the league at the end of the season. He's got excellent individual statistics. The Bulls went from a 40 win team to a 60 win team. Lets please keep in mind, that the MVP award is not the best player in the league award. No matter how much you think it should be.


This year he's been the best poing guard in the leauge. I'm not disputing that. But, take into account that Chris Paul was hurt all year and Deron Williams wasn't playing for anything for the last two months. We'll get a more clear picture as to who is the best point next season.

Yes, but he also has a fantastic supporting cast and his team is winning because of rebounding and defense, not because he runs an awesome offense.

His individual statistics are impressive, but they do not allude to him being the best player or the most valuable. 24/4/8 while being average defensively and running a mediocre offense is nice, but not to the point where I would give him the MVP.

Chicago also had the addition of Carlos Boozer, the emergence of Noah and Gibson, and stole half of Utah's role players in the offseason. Rose absolutely took a huge step forward, but pretending like his progression alone is the reason why the Bulls improved 20 something games is choosing to be ignorant.

I'm well aware that the MVP is not the best player in the league award. It's the best story. And the best story is Derrick Rose and the Bulls so that's why he's going to win MVP. But just because that's whats going to happen doesn't mean that it isn't a broken and stupid system. You're telling me that you enjoy living in a world where Steve freaking Nash has as many MVPs as Kobe and Shaq combined? Because I sure as hell don't like it.

That being said, Rose has had a fantastic year, he's been a real pleasure to watch and he's my favorite point and possibly my favorite non Laker at this point. I've been high on him since his college days and it's nice to see him proving me right about him clearly being who the Bulls should draft.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> Yeah, this season.
> 
> One season doesn't make you the best.


The MVP is awarded season to season buddy. Not for your career accomplishments or reputation. WOW.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



O2K said:


> Not really. There is no doubt the season Howard has had. He's the best defensive player in the league hence the the DPOY. And we are not talking about position at all. Your example is poor. You can try again though.


Yes, Dwight is the best defensive player in the leauge. That counts for something in the DPOY (obviously) and the MVP as well. The MVP isn't the best offensive player in the year award, it's a combination of offense and defense. Seeing as Dwight is the best defensive player in the leauge, has led a garbage team to a respectable record, and is putting up really nice offensive numbers is why Dwight is my MVP. He's a better and more impactful player than Derrick Rose and because LeBron winning it is impossible, then Dwight is the next best canidate.

I'm well aware that you weren't talking about position. But you said that the reason Dwight shouldn't win MVP is because he's going to win the DPOY and he hasn't been "historic" enough for that to happen. That's stupid because you don't need to have a historic season to win the MVP. You just need to be deserving of the award, and Howard happens to be deserving of two.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> The MVP is awarded season to season buddy. Not for your career. WOW.


What are you talking about?

I am not arguing about the MVP, I was pointing out how you said Rose was the best point guard in the league.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Seanzie said:


> I'm just wondering what people are going to say IF (again, I must stress IF) the Bulls lose in the second round and aren't even competitive.
> 
> You could say that the same thing happened to LeBron last year, but he's clearly the best player in the league. Rose is not.


If that happens there will be a backlash. You can already see a lot of people are mad at the hype he's getting. A lot of that is sort of held back by the bull's team success, but if they flame out in the playoffs, a lot of that stuff won't be held back.

Dwight has an opportunity to Hakeem Rose in that second round, could be interesting.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> This year he's been the best poing guard in the leauge. I'm not disputing that. But, take into account that Chris Paul was hurt all year and Deron Williams wasn't playing for anything for the last two months. We'll get a more clear picture as to who is the best point next season.
> 
> Yes, but he also has a fantastic supporting cast and his team is winning because of rebounding and defense, not because he runs an awesome offense.
> 
> His individual statistics are impressive, but they do not allude to him being the best player or the most valuable. 24/4/8 while being average defensively and running a mediocre offense is nice, but not to the point where I would give him the MVP.
> 
> Chicago also had the addition of Carlos Boozer, the emergence of Noah and Gibson, and stole half of Utah's role players in the offseason. Rose absolutely took a huge step forward, but pretending like his progression alone is the reason why the Bulls improved 20 something games is choosing to be ignorant.
> 
> I'm well aware that the MVP is not the best player in the league award. It's the best story. And the best story is Derrick Rose and the Bulls so that's why he's going to win MVP. But just because that's whats going to happen doesn't mean that it isn't a broken and stupid system. You're telling me that you enjoy living in a world where Steve freaking Nash has as many MVPs as Kobe and Shaq combined? Because I sure as hell don't like it.
> 
> That being said, Rose has had a fantastic year, he's been a real pleasure to watch and he's my favorite point and possibly my favorite non Laker at this point. I've been high on him since his college days and it's nice to see him proving me right about him clearly being who the Bulls should draft.


Every MVP player has a damn good supporting cast this year, you're going to hold that against Rose ? To me that show's a biased agenda. And Paul/Williams best days are behind them. I will take not only Rose, but Westbrook over those two for the rest of their playing careers. Also I don't remember back in the day anyone giving the great PG's the injury excuse when they were on the IR. So I'm not going to give it to Paul. If Paul is the best PG or Williams they need to show me on the court. I'm not living off their ghosts. And the MVP award is certainly a "Now" award. 

Otherwise I don't have any real disagreement with you. I think Rose is as good of an MVP you could find this year. If the Magic played marginally better, I could take Howard winning it more seriously.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> What are you talking about?
> 
> I am not arguing about the MVP, I was pointing out how you said Rose was the best point guard in the league.


There is a reason buddy why Paul and Williams are not even in the MVP debate, and Rose is going to win it. First, and I would think most obvious reason, Derrick Rose is the best PG this season. Capiche!


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> *There is a reason buddy why Paul and Williams are not even in the MVP debate, and Rose is going to win it*. First, and I would think most obvious reason, Derrick Rose is the best PG this season. Capiche!


Yes, because their teams are garbage, not because Rose is a better player then them.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> Yes, because their teams are garbage, not because Rose is a better player then them.


If you really think that Rose is not better than Williams/Paul this season. You lose any credibility you had as a poster here.

Also keep in mind the Hornets are a playoff team. Only 4 games behind the Magic. Yet Howard's name is consistently mentioned in winning the MVP. So enough with the excuses.


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> If you really think that Rose is not better than Williams/Paul this season. You lose any credibility you had as a poster here.


Yeah, he has had a better season then them, I have already said that. But that doesn't make him the best PG in the league, it is one season after all.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Yes, Dwight is the best defensive player in the leauge. That counts for something in the DPOY (obviously) and the MVP as well. The MVP isn't the best offensive player in the year award, it's a combination of offense and defense. Seeing as Dwight is the best defensive player in the leauge, has led a garbage team to a respectable record, and is putting up really nice offensive numbers is why Dwight is my MVP. He's a better and more impactful player than Derrick Rose and because LeBron winning it is impossible, then Dwight is the next best canidate.
> 
> I'm well aware that you weren't talking about position. But you said that the reason Dwight shouldn't win MVP is because he's going to win the DPOY and he hasn't been "historic" enough for that to happen. That's stupid because you don't need to have a historic season to win the MVP. You just need to be deserving of the award, and Howard happens to be deserving of two.


I understand what you are saying and your point is valid, but I still don't see him as deserving of both. I do like the idea of OPOY separate from a DPOY award, but I don't see Howard having that great of a season to have both MVP and DPOY.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



> Deron best ever season
> 18.7p
> 10.5a
> 4.0r
> 21.1PER
> 
> Rose this season
> 25.2p
> 7.9a
> 4.2r
> 23.7PER


Rose this year has been better than Deron Williams ever was. Chris Paul is still the better overall PG, but not this year.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



O2K said:


> I understand what you are saying and your point is valid, but I still don't see him as deserving of both. I do like the idea of OPOY separate from a DPOY award, but I don't see Howard having that great of a season to have both MVP and DPOY.


Dwight is obviously the DPOY. That's not really debatable. And I'm not seeing how you can justify Rose over Howard unless you follow the best player on a top team method. In no way, shape, or form is Rose better or more important to the Bulls then Dwight is to the Magic. Dwight means more to the Magic than any other player in the league means to their respective teams.

So all in all, considering that Dwight is a better overall player and he is more "valuable" to his team, I'm not seeing the argument for Rose unless you're going by cutest story.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Dwight is obviously the DPOY. That's not really debatable. And I'm not seeing how you can justify Rose over Howard unless you follow the best player on a top team method. In no way, shape, or form is Rose better or more important to the Bulls then Dwight is to the Magic. Dwight means more to the Magic than any other player in the league means to their respective teams.
> 
> So all in all, considering that Dwight is a better overall player and he is more "valuable" to his team, I'm not seeing the argument for Rose unless you're going by cutest story.


Without Kevin Love (who is also 4th in the beloved PER) the wolves would probably have zero wins this year. Lets give him the MVP since he's obviously more valuable.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



O2K said:


> Without Kevin Love (who is also 4th in the beloved PER) the wolves would probably have zero wins this year. Lets give him the MVP since he's obviously more valuable.


I'm not a big fan of PER and I don't consider Love to impact basketball games enough to really affect the win total. He's a role player. So no, let's not give the MVP so the guy with the prettiest stats on the second worst team in the league.

But keep on throwing out stupid scenerios that don't have anything to do with that we're talking about. That's probably a better call then a real counter argument.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Howard is the most VALUABLE player in the league but the award is for the most valuable player on one of the top teams. Orlando isn't up there in the top 5 teams in the NBA which kind of disqualifies him from the award. I see it being similar to that year Wade had where he was absolutely ridiculous, but the team just wasn't ranked high enough for him to win it.


----------



## Diable

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

When you bring Love up to criticize PER you're not saying anything that isn't well known. PER overvalues rebounding. It is a well known issue, but not really relevant to the MVP argument unless you want to use it against Howard. Rebounding is the one area of basketball where stat padding is clearly an issue, in fact Love has typified this as the Wolves have on numerous occasions left him in blowouts so that he could maintain this double double streak or so that he could reach other statistical plateaus. A more important player would obviously be sat down because he'd be needed to help win games that had not yet been decided.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Rose isn't the best player in the league, hell, he's not even a top five player. But he's had a great year and is a great story for the media. He's clearly going to win it but that doesn't mean that he deserves it.


He clearly deserves it. If you don't think so then slap yourself in the head harder please man for real. Rose is clearly and i mean clearly is the mvp. The Bulls were the 8th seed last year under 500 with this year they have the best record in the east in which they could get the best record in the nba. Not just the media that thinks Rose is mvp but also former players, coaches, active nba players. I was watching Amare interview and he said "The Bulls have been playing great with the mvp Rose." <<<Funny is that none of those 3 guys on nba tv didn't ask Amare who should be mvp. Lmfao @ "But that don't mean he deserves it." <<<<< HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!!!!!


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Dwight is obviously the DPOY. That's not really debatable. And I'm not seeing how you can justify Rose over Howard unless you follow the best player on a top team method. In no way, shape, or form is Rose better or more important to the Bulls then Dwight is to the Magic. Dwight means more to the Magic than any other player in the league means to their respective teams.
> 
> So all in all, considering that Dwight is a better overall player and he is more "valuable" to his team, I'm not seeing the argument for Rose unless you're going by cutest story.


First off how can you say who's a better player between Howard or Rose if both play way different positions? Second off would you please stop with The Howard arguement about if he deserves to win mvp or not. I know you feel Howard should get it but the bottomline is he won't get it and shouldn't cause they have the 4th best record in the eastern conference. When was the last time a player won an mvp when they in 4th place in the eastern conference? Hell they don't have the 4th best record in the nba overall in which The Thunder are 4 games ahead of The Magic. The Magic have the 7th best record in the nba.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Floods said:


> Williams and Paul are better point guards but Rose is the best player of the three, if that makes sense.


It doesn't. Paul and Williams are both better point guards and better players.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> It doesn't. Paul and Williams are both better point guards and better players.


I disagree. Me being an unbiased Deron Williams, i think Rose at this moment has proving he's a better pg then both Williams and Paul. If i recall when Rose face those 2 pg, he completely own them like nothing. Mostly vs Williams this year in which he took Williams to school. Williams is better by being a playmaker but Rose is actually ahead of him in in most other stats in ppg, fgs, fts, 3pt,bpg, rpg.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> I disagree. Me being an unbiased Deron Williams, i think Rose at this moment has proving he's a better pg then both Williams and Paul. If i recall when Rose face those 2 pg, he completely own them like nothing. Mostly vs Williams this year in which he took Williams to school. Williams is better by being a playmaker but Rose is actually ahead of him in in most other stats in ppg, fgs, fts, 3pt,bpg, rpg.


This year, Rose and Westbrook were the best point guards. Overall, Chris Paul with two good knees is still the best point guard in the league, and it's not that close. Deron Williams had a weird year because of the Sloan thing and the trade, but he is next after Paul because he has proven himself over several years and is clearly still in his prime. Rose and Westbrook will have to continue to prove themselves, but they are in a good position to do that being so young.

What's bad for Rose is that his curve of expectations has skyrocketed. Without an MVP award, Rose and Westbrook could have been beaten in the 2nd round and people would have chalked it up to age/experience. This is still the case for Westbrook, but if Rose wins MVP, that creates bigger expectations. The MVP and the best team in the east means finals minimum or it's a failure.


----------



## Dre

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

See people get disrespectful with this real quick...Rose is having an incredible year but he doesn't surpass the body of work two still prime players in Paul and Williams have just yet. 

People want to pretend injuries don't factor in but I bet some of these same people were the ones coppin pleas for Rose hobbling on one ankle last year.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> This year, Rose and Westbrook were the best point guards. Overall, Chris Paul with two good knees is still the best point guard in the league, and it's not that close. Deron Williams had a weird year because of the Sloan thing and the trade, but he is next after Paul because he has proven himself over several years and is clearly still in his prime. Rose and Westbrook will have to continue to prove themselves, but they are in a good position to do that being so young.
> 
> What's bad for Rose is that his curve of expectations has skyrocketed. Without an MVP award, Rose and Westbrook could have been beaten in the 2nd round and people would have chalked it up to age/experience. This is still the case for Westbrook, but if Rose wins MVP, that creates bigger expectations. The MVP and the best team in the east means finals minimum or it's a failure.


Chris Paul is a great player but i'm sorry but i feel Rose is better in which he's proving it this season of helping the bulls to have the best record in the eastern conference. Seriouslly who here thought from the beginning of this season the bulls will have the best record in the eastern conference? And who here though they be an inch away from having the best record in the nba? Paul is great but i don't recall he ever help the hornets get 60 wins in a season or even have the best record in the western conference. Same with Williams in his career with the jazz. But look even back then Paul and Williams were better but at this moment? Injuries or not, Rose is clearly the better pg then both Williams and Paul.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I guess Ginobili is proving this year that he is the best shooting guard in the league because he is "helping his team to the best record" in the league. 

If that's how you evaluate players...


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Well if you want to say Paul is the best pg right now that is justifiable. But you can only do it for so long. Next year if Rose has an equal or slightly better season and Paul is somewhat hurt again and Deron doesn't do anything spectacular than the excuses of injuries etc. dont hold any weight. There have been many players in the league who's careers were affected by injuries, just part of the game.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Rose and Westbrook are the same player, except that Westbrook is a much tougher defender.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Diable said:


> Howard is matching up with a hotel room today


Correction, Q Richardson's house.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Rose and Westbrook are the same player, except that Westbrook is a much tougher defender.


And that Rose is faster, has better court vision, and is generally more unselfish.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Rose and Westbrook are the same player, except that Westbrook is a much tougher defender.


Westbrook is a much tougher defender? How about less time spent on a message board and more time spent watching these guys play.... 

I get it that some posters have an agenda... but don't people care if they have any credibility anymore?


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Well, we can argue stats and this and that. However, Rose's case for MVP has been made, and solidified with how he has absolutely dismantled other contenders. He had a 115% TS% yesterday. He is MVP now due to his big time games along with his value to his team.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I guess Ginobili is proving this year that he is the best shooting guard in the league because he is "helping his team to the best record" in the league.
> 
> If that's how you evaluate players...


Ginobili is playing great this season but imo he ain't the best top 5 shooting guards while Rose (imo is the number 1 best pg) is the top 3 with Williams and Paul.


----------



## RollWithEm

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Ginobili is playing great this season but imo he ain't the best top 5 shooting guards while Rose (imo is the number 1 best pg) is the top 3 with Williams and Paul.


I agree that Ginobili isn't the MVP or even the best SG in the league, but he is top 5. I think I'd rather have Manu that Joe Johnson right now.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Rose and Westbrook are the same player, except that Westbrook is a much tougher defender.


Rose has better advanced stats as well. Don't forget that, because I know how you love those.


----------



## Da Grinch

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> Rose has better advanced stats as well. Don't forget that, because I know how you love those.


virtually all year advanced stats have said rose is a better scorer , better with the ball, better +/-, westbrook a better defender, rebounder, passer , better at drawing fouls, 

basically they have been even all year most of the season westbrook has been ahead on PER , he isn't now though (23.7 to 23.5)


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Da Grinch said:


> virtually all year advanced stats have said rose is a better scorer , better with the ball, better +/-, westbrook a better defender, rebounder, passer , better at drawing fouls,
> 
> basically they have been even all year most of the season westbrook has been ahead on PER , he isn't now though (23.7 to 23.5)


 PER	VA	EWA

Derrick Rose 23.78	564.0	18.8

Russell Westbrook	23.37	514.7	17.2

I was thinking of these advanced stats. Not Rates.

And let me also point out that playing more minutes per game is also extremely important. Which doesn't show in rates. Or PER for that matter. So the fact that Rose is slightly more efficient per minute and yet doing it for 2.5 more minutes per game is very important. As is Rose doing it as the number one option while Westbrook does it as the number 2 option.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

It'll take a while for Rose's defensive reputation to improve. Bulls fans know how much he has improved defensively under Thibodeau, but these things take a while (several years) for the broader NBA fan base to acknowledge.

I wish I could find the post (it might've been at RealGM) where some advanced stats show Rose is a superior 1-v-1 defender than Westbrook. It was something in the range of, opponents shoot only 32% with against Rose in 1-v-1 situations compared to 38% on Westbrook. Rose also forced more turnovers in those situations. 

I don't doubt Westbrook is the more aggressive defender, but "better" is up for debate given Rose's improvements in that area, thanks in large part to Thibodeau making him better.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> It doesn't. Paul and Williams are both better point guards and better players.


They haven't been this season. Paul and Williams have fallen below expectations this year, while Rose has far exceed expectations. I really don't see how that can be debated anymore.

Granted, I am the first to admit that Paul and Williams are quite capable of being better than Rose, but they have not played liked it for the majority of the 2010-11 season.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> He clearly deserves it. If you don't think so then slap yourself in the head harder please man for real. Rose is clearly and i mean clearly is the mvp. The Bulls were the 8th seed last year under 500 with this year they have the best record in the east in which they could get the best record in the nba. Not just the media that thinks Rose is mvp but also former players, coaches, active nba players. I was watching Amare interview and he said "The Bulls have been playing great with the mvp Rose." <<<Funny is that none of those 3 guys on nba tv didn't ask Amare who should be mvp. Lmfao @ "But that don't mean he deserves it." <<<<< HAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!!!!!


If you're going to come in a thread and insult me by trying to be cute, then atleast speak proper english when doing so. You're making yourself look foolish.

The Bulls had a .500 record last year, not under .500, so again, you don't know what you're talking about. The Bulls also have a completely different team this year. They signed an allstar big man in Carlos Boozer, signed fantastic role players and saw the emergance of Noah and Gibson. This is not the '10 Bulls and you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

Has Rose improved? Absolutely. Has his improvments been a big reason as to why the Bulls have improved so much? Clearly. But it's not the only reason and pretending otherwise is choosing to ignore the facts that are right in front of you.

I don't care what the media thinks. This is the same media that gave Allen Iverson the MVP over Shaq. They're not credible for the most part. Former and active players? A huge portion of those former and active players still call Kobe Bryant the best player in the league when he hasn't been since LeBron's first MVP year. These are the same guys who say that they play on the most stacked roster in the league regardless of their teams position, and that ranges from the Pistons to the Lakers. Players say a lot of stupid things.

But sure, we can let Amar'e dictate who wins the award because of what he said in a single interview. That's probably a good strategy.

No one here has addressed the fact that our leading MVP canidate isn't a top five player. I mean if we're going to allow ourselves to give the MVP to someone who isn't the best player in the league (which is stupid) we should atleast make sure they are a top five if not top three player in the game.

Dwight Howard is a better at defense than Rose is at offense and is better at offense than Rose is at defense. He single-handidly carried his team to a top four record in the conference without playing with a good supporting cast. Look at the other top eight teams in the league and show me who and done more with less than Dwight this year. Nobody. He's the best defensive player in the league and has improved his offense to the point where he's scoring over 23 points a game. He's a better player and is more valuable to his team than Derrick Rose, records be damned.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



yodurk said:


> They haven't been this season. Paul and Williams have fallen below expectations this year, while Rose has far exceed expectations. I really don't see how that can be debated anymore.
> 
> Granted, I am the first to admit that Paul and Williams are quite capable of being better than Rose, but they have not played liked it for the majority of the 2010-11 season.


This year, Rose and Westbrook have been the best, but that's 1 year. The point is, is it really fair to completely change rankings after 1 year? Especially since Chris Paul has two seasons clearly better than Rose this year. 

It would be like if Rose played like this again next season, but then the season after that was fighting a knee injury the whole year and his production slipped a little. In that same season, an up-and-coming point guard had a great season and led his team to 55 wins. I don't think you'd be comfortable conceding that that player is better than Rose overall. 

Derrick Rose will have to keep improving, or Chris Paul will have to slide (or show he can no longer play at his prime level) in order for Rose to be better. Paul has already reached a level Rose hasn't approached yet, and so unless Paul shows he can never reach that level again, or Rose keeps improving, Paul still gets the nod. I mean, even a hobbled Chris Paul playing for an unstable organization with limited supporting cast (compared to other top players) still has New Orleans at damn near 50 wins, and is still productive and efficient enough to have a higher PER than Rose. That says something. 

Rose has put himself in the conversation with Williams though.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> If you're going to come in a thread and insult me by trying to be cute, then atleast speak proper english when doing so. You're making yourself look foolish.
> 
> 
> 
> *^^^First off i ain't trying to insult you. If you think so then i apologies. *
> 
> 
> The Bulls had a .500 record last year, not under .500, so again, you don't know what you're talking about. The Bulls also have a completely different team this year. They signed an allstar big man in Carlos Boozer, signed fantastic role players and saw the emergance of Noah and Gibson. This is not the '10 Bulls and you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *^^^You're right they had a 500 record but still was in 8th place last year while this year they have the best record in the eastern conference. Yup they added Boozer who started playing for the bulls i believe in january but the bulls was still winning games alot when he was out. Noah? Wasn't he out for close to 2 month? But yet the bulls still was winning alot of games? Gibson has been playing very well. Deng has been playing great.*
> 
> Has Rose improved? Absolutely. Has his improvments been a big reason as to why the Bulls have improved so much? Clearly. But it's not the only reason and pretending otherwise is choosing to ignore the facts that are right in front of you.
> 
> 
> 
> *^^^Yea the bulls have a very good role players but so? There are many teams that has very good role players like in the magic who barely lost to the bulls by 3 points without Howard but i guess you won't mention that right? But the reason why i don't think Kobe should be mvp cause he has way better roster then Rose bulls in which are facts. The reason the lakers before the 5 game losing streak has been playing awesome in the 2nd half is not just cause of Kobe, it was mostly Bynum and 6th man of the year in my opinion Odom. *
> I don't care what the media thinks. This is the same media that gave Allen Iverson the MVP over Shaq. They're not credible for the most part. Former and active players? A huge portion of those former and active players still call Kobe Bryant the best player in the league when he hasn't been since LeBron's first MVP year. These are the same guys who say that they play on the most stacked roster in the league regardless of their teams position, and that ranges from the Pistons to the Lakers. Players say a lot of stupid things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *^^^If you talk about 2001? Then Ai easily deserves to win mvp. Look at that roster compare to Shaq roster? Are you kidding me? Ai had a roster full of good to decent players while Shaq has Kobe, Horry, Fisher and so on. Ai basically by himself with all the injuries he had in that year took the sixers all the way to the finals while his team had the best record in the eastern conference. *
> But sure, we can let Amar'e dictate who wins the award because of what he said in a single interview. That's probably a good strategy.
> 
> 
> 
> *^^^^Nice that you ignored my comment about "NOT JUST THE MEDIA BUT ALSO COACHES, FORMER PLAYERS, ACTIVE PLAYERS HAVE ALSO SAID ROSE IS THE MVP!" I give you an example of one of them like Amare who even said Rose is mvp. *No one here has addressed the fact that our leading MVP canidate isn't a top five player. I mean if we're going to allow ourselves to give the MVP to someone who isn't the best player in the league (which is stupid) we should atleast make sure they are a top five if not top three player in the game.
> 
> 
> 
> *^^^^Blah, Blah, Blah. Yea Rose isn't the best player in the nba but so what? Imo he's the best pg in the nba in which i'm being honest since i'm a big Deron Williams fan. *
> Dwight Howard is a better at defense than Rose is at offense and is better at offense than Rose is at defense. He single-handidly carried his team to a top four record in the conference without playing with a good supporting cast. Look at the other top eight teams in the league and show me who and done more with less than Dwight this year. Nobody. He's the best defensive player in the league and has improved his offense to the point where he's scoring over 23 points a game. He's a better player and is more valuable to his team than Derrick Rose, records be damned.
> 
> *Without a good supporting cast? :laugh: I think you giving Howard way too much credit in which you going overboard. The magic actually does have a real good supporting cast. Are you saying Nelson, Richardson, Hedo, Anderson, Bass, JJ, Duhan, Arenas are all not good role players??? :laugh::laugh::laugh: I'm not insulting you but you need to think twice of what you just said. *


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> Dwight Howard is a better at defense than Rose is at offense and is better at offense than Rose is at defense. He single-handidly carried his team to a top four record in the conference without playing with a good supporting cast. Look at the other top eight teams in the league and show me who and done more with less than Dwight this year. Nobody. He's the best defensive player in the league and has improved his offense to the point where he's scoring over 23 points a game. He's a better player and is more valuable to his team than Derrick Rose, records be damned.


I have a feeling Dwight will end up getting his say on the MVP in the second round...Wouldn't be shocked if Dwight is able to Hakeem D-Rose, he's gotten that much better this year. If the Magic can get anything out of Jameer Nelson over the course of that series, it could be ripe for an upset.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> I have a feeling Dwight will end up getting his say on the MVP in the second round...Wouldn't be shocked if Dwight is able to Hakeem D-Rose, he's gotten that much better this year. If the Magic can get anything out of Jameer Nelson over the course of that series, it could be ripe for an upset.


I won't be surprise if the magic ends up eliminate the bulls in the 2nd round but i feel the bulls will win it cause of the one thing it might hurt the magic is lack of size. Besides howard, they had no other centers in that roster while the bulls do in noah, thomas and Omer. Besides that the magic does have a chance to eliminate the bulls cause not just of howard but very underrated good role players in which most of those role players are deadly shooters from the outside shots. And Bass has been playing very well as a pf. But regardless whoever wins this season won't prove who's the real mvp is since the mvp is for regular season not the playoffs.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Btw Vanilla, you mention about defense in which you say Howard has defense while Rose has offense? Lol DUH!!! And what that proved? Howard is A BIG MUSCLE CENTER FOR FREAKING SAKES!! While Rose is a pg lol. Bynum is better on defense then Rose in which means Bynum deserves to win mvp more then Rose? lol come on man for real. And you saying i'm making myself look foolish? Well you already making yourself look foolish when you say Howard don't have a good supporting cast.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Rose and Westbrook are the same player, except that Westbrook is a much tougher defender.


hahhahahaha ok you're just a hater.


----------



## Pay Ton

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



mvP to the Wee said:


> hahhahahaha ok you're just a hater.


No, no, no.

Futuristxen _likes_ Rose.

Just like I _like_ nosebleeds.


----------



## mvP to the Wee

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Pay Ton said:


> No, no, no.
> 
> Futuristxen _likes_ Rose.
> 
> Just like I _like_ nosebleeds.


:laugh: yep trying to cover up the hater image. Rose>Westbrook and it isn't really close


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> VanillaPrice said:
> 
> 
> 
> *^^^First off i ain't trying to insult you. If you think so then i apologies. *
> 
> 
> *^^^You're right they had a 500 record but still was in 8th place last year while this year they have the best record in the eastern conference. Yup they added Boozer who started playing for the bulls i believe in january but the bulls was still winning games alot when he was out. Noah? Wasn't he out for close to 2 month? But yet the bulls still was winning alot of games? Gibson has been playing very well. Deng has been playing great.*
> 
> 
> *^^^Yea the bulls have a very good role players but so? There are many teams that has very good role players like in the magic who barely lost to the bulls by 3 points without Howard but i guess you won't mention that right? But the reason why i don't think Kobe should be mvp cause he has way better roster then Rose bulls in which are facts. The reason the lakers before the 5 game losing streak has been playing awesome in the 2nd half is not just cause of Kobe, it was mostly Bynum and 6th man of the year in my opinion Odom. *
> 
> 
> *^^^If you talk about 2001? Then Ai easily deserves to win mvp. Look at that roster compare to Shaq roster? Are you kidding me? Ai had a roster full of good to decent players while Shaq has Kobe, Horry, Fisher and so on. Ai basically by himself with all the injuries he had in that year took the sixers all the way to the finals while his team had the best record in the eastern conference. *
> But sure, we can let Amar'e dictate who wins the award because of what he said in a single interview. That's probably a good strategy.
> 
> 
> 
> *^^^^Nice that you ignored my comment about "NOT JUST THE MEDIA BUT ALSO COACHES, FORMER PLAYERS, ACTIVE PLAYERS HAVE ALSO SAID ROSE IS THE MVP!" I give you an example of one of them like Amare who even said Rose is mvp. *
> 
> *^^^^Blah, Blah, Blah. Yea Rose isn't the best player in the nba but so what? Imo he's the best pg in the nba in which i'm being honest since i'm a big Deron Williams fan. *
> 
> *Without a good supporting cast? :laugh: I think you giving Howard way too much credit in which you going overboard. The magic actually does have a real good supporting cast. Are you saying Nelson, Richardson, Hedo, Anderson, Bass, JJ, Duhan, Arenas are all not good role players??? :laugh::laugh::laugh: I'm not insulting you but you need to think twice of what you just said. *
> 
> 
> 
> They were never missing Boozer and Noah for an extended period of time at the same time. Rose has always had atleast one allstar calibur big man to work with. That and the fact that the Bulls signed Kurt Thomas and watched the emergance of Taj Gibson. This is not the Bulls supporting cast of yesteryear. This is an extremely well built unit.
> 
> I never said that Kobe deserved the MVP. I said he had a shot if the Lakers finished up the season strong. They faltered and therefore Kobe's chances are slim to none. Dwight Howard was my canidate if you recall correctly.
> 
> The fact that you're going to sit here and try to argue the fact that Allen Iverson should have been the MVP in 2001 makes this whole conversation pointless. Shaq was signifigantly better on both sides of the court and had a bigger impact on the game then anyone we have seen since. Trying to dispute this is going to make you look like a fool.
> 
> You can try and point to Iverson's (lack of) a supporting cast when that's just not factual. Iverson's team was an *extremely* good defensive unit. Nearly everyone in the starting lineup outside of Allen was a lock down defender. Sure, they weren't great offensive players by any means, but they didn't have to be. They were good enough to squeak out of the worst eastern conference in recent memory (which is saying something) just in time to get demolished by Shaq's Lakers. You can say "but but but they made the finals!" all you want, but the reality is that if those Sixers were in the western conference they would not have had a chance to make it out of the second round. Hell, it's not unplausible to say that they get knocked out in the first round. The west was really that much better.
> 
> Rose has been the best point guard in the NBA this year by default. Chris Paul has been injured all year and Deron Williams has played half the year without purpose. Who does that leave? Rajon freaking Rondo? We'll see how he preforms against real competition next year.
> 
> The Magic have a deep team. I'm not arguing that. My problem with them is that no one outside of Howard could be the second or even third best player on a championship team. They're a team with one superstar and a bunch of overpaid role players that can hit threes. That's it. And in my opinion that's damn impressive considering that every single star that has a better record then him has a signifigantly better supporting cast and it's not even close.
Click to expand...


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> rayz789 said:
> 
> 
> 
> They were never missing Boozer and Noah for an extended period of time at the same time. Rose has always had atleast one allstar calibur big man to work with. That and the fact that the Bulls signed Kurt Thomas and watched the emergance of Taj Gibson. This is not the Bulls supporting cast of yesteryear. This is an extremely well built unit.
> 
> 
> *Yea and 1 allstar big man Rose has is Boozer who started the season with The Bulls in january and then miss other games. Who else was an allstar big man when Boozer was out? Noah? Who was out alot as well? What about when both Boozer and Noah was out the same time but still the bulls win games? Gibson like i said has been playing very well. *
> 
> I never said that Kobe deserved the MVP. I said he had a shot if the Lakers finished up the season strong. They faltered and therefore Kobe's chances are slim to none. Dwight Howard was my canidate if you recall correctly.
> 
> 
> *Even if lets say the lakers didn't have a 5 game losing streak, i still don't think kobe deserves to win it cause he has way better roster then the bulls in which are true facts. And lets be real the reason the lakers were 17-1 in the 2nd half of the season before the 5 game losing streak is really cause of bynum and odom in which proves my point on the lakers roster.*
> The fact that you're going to sit here and try to argue the fact that Allen Iverson should have been the MVP in 2001 makes this whole conversation pointless. Shaq was signifigantly better on both sides of the court and had a bigger impact on the game then anyone we have seen since. Trying to dispute this is going to make you look like a fool.
> 
> 
> *Shaq also has a way better roster then the sixers. You talk about Howard supporting cast in which none wouldn't be the 2nd or 3rd best player on any teams but what about the 01 sixers? Who would be the 2nd or 3rd best player on any other teams other then ai huh? That comment right there just shows you don't know what you're talking about. Shaq in 01 is the same like kobe of this year, they have a far better rosters then the sixers in 01 and the bulls this year in which is why ai deserves to win mvp in 01 and rose deserves to win it this year. *
> 
> 
> You can try and point to Iverson's (lack of) a supporting cast when that's just not factual. Iverson's team was an *extremely* good defensive unit. Nearly everyone in the starting lineup outside of Allen was a lock down defender. Sure, they weren't great offensive players by any means, but they didn't have to be. They were good enough to squeak out of the worst eastern conference in recent memory (which is saying something) just in time to get demolished by Shaq's Lakers. You can say "but but but they made the finals!" all you want, but the reality is that if those Sixers were in the western conference they would not have had a chance to make it out of the second round. Hell, it's not unplausible to say that they get knocked out in the first round. The west was really that much better.
> 
> 
> ^^^Well guess what vanilla? You talk about the sixers roster can play defense? Well what the lakers roster in 01? Besides shaq, no other lakers rosters in 01 was a good defenders? :laugh: Again you making yourself looking like a fool. Dude the lakers defense in 01 was great. You forgot that shaq also has also real good defenders in kobe, horry, rick fox, young fisher. But in 01 the lakers were a complete team to say the least more then the lakers cause not only they have defense but they have very good offense with shaq of course but so is a prime kobe, good shooters in fisher, horry, fox. The sixers don't have alot of good shooters in that roster in 01 if i remember right. <<<This is again why i say ai deserves to win mvp in 01 cause the way he help this team basically by himself in offense to have the best record in the east and went all the way to the nba finals while shaq has a far better supporting casts that not only can play defense but can shoot as well in a very good way.
> 
> 
> *Also i want to say is you said ( If the sixers in 01 were in the west they wouldn't go far.) Well you can make a case for the magic since you think howard is the canidate for mvp cause if the magic was in the west instead of the east, they would imo be in 7th or 8th place.*
> 
> Rose has been the best point guard in the NBA this year by default. Chris Paul has been injured all year and Deron Williams has played half the year without purpose. Who does that leave? Rajon freaking Rondo? We'll see how he preforms against real competition next year.
> 
> 
> *Real competition? I think the real competition is already this year lol but i guess for some reason you just won't give much credit for Rose in which i really don't know why. *
> 
> *The Magic have a deep team*. I'm not arguing that. *My problem with them is that no one outside of Howard could be the second or even third best player on a championship team. They're a team with one superstar and a bunch of overpaid role players that can hit threes.* That's it. And in my opinion that's damn impressive considering that every single star that has a better record then him has a signifigantly better supporting cast and it's not even close.
> 
> *You can say the same of the sixers in 01 in which i already said that besides ai, no other roster would be the 2nd or 3rd best player in which the sixers only had 1 superster in ai. <<<<Thanks for once again proving why you making yourself look like a complete fool. What howard is doing this season with the magic is basically the same of what ai did in 01 with the sixers but ai sixers had the best record in the east in 01 while howard's magic are in 4th place in the east this season. But yet you don't think ai deserves it to win mvp lol*.
Click to expand...


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

I can't make out any of that jibberish except for "fool" "lol" and "ai for MVP". I'm not going to waste any more of my time.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> I can't make out any of that jibberish except for "fool" "lol" and "ai for MVP". I'm not going to waste any more of my time.


That's cause you got no comeback to respond. My last reply got you badly in which you can't think of anything else. I EASILY! prove my point of why ai deserves to win mvp in 01 and rose deserves to win mvp this year.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> That's cause you got no comeback to respond. My last reply got you badly in which you can't think of anything else. I EASILY! prove my point of why ai deserves to win mvp in 01 and rose deserves to win mvp this year.


No, you didn't. You actually didn't explain either. You wrote about two sentences of broken english followed by a bunch of lols and had a false sense of winning an argument. You don't know what you're talking about.

Allen Iverson was not the best player in the league in 2001. Nor was he the second best player in the league. Shaq was far and away the league's alpha male and was (signifigantly) better on both sides of the floor. He played in a tougher conference, destroyed his conference, and eliminated Iverson's Sixers relatively easily in five games. There is no justification for Iveron over Shaq unless you're willing to ignore that Iverson played in a **** conference, had an underrated (albiet less talented then the Lakers, but still underrated) supporting cast, and simply wasn't even on the same tier as Shaq was. There is no debate.

Rose winning the MVP isn't as big of a travesty because the league doesn't have anyone on the level of a 2001 Shaquille at this point. Granted, if LeBron wasn't essentially eliminated from contention (barring 70 wins) then this would clearly be his award to lose, but because of the broken system we are left with a bigger pool of available canidates. Those canidates are Rose, Dwight, Kobe, and Durant. And out of those players Dwight Howard has had the best individual season and that's not only backed by statistics, but anyone with eyes can see that Dwight means *much* more to his team than any respective super star.

Rose is a great player and is my favorite non Laker in the league. I just spent two hours raving about him in the gameday thread. I've liked the guy since he was in college. But that bias doesn't change the fact that I'm not comfortable with giving the award to someone who isn't a top five player at the very least.

If you're going to come in here with what you call a counter argument, atleast articulate yourself so that it doesn't look like a second graders rough draft.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> No, you didn't. You actually didn't explain either. You wrote about two sentences of broken english followed by a bunch of lols and had a false sense of winning an argument. You don't know what you're talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *^^^^^Whats wrong? Is it so hard for you to realize that i have a far better arguement then you? *
> 
> 
> Allen Iverson was not the best player in the league in 2001. Nor was he the second best player in the league. Shaq was far and away the league's alpha male and was (signifigantly) better on both sides of the floor. He played in a tougher conference, destroyed his conference, and eliminated Iverson's Sixers relatively easily in five games. There is no justification for Iveron over Shaq unless you're willing to ignore that Iverson played in a **** conference, had an underrated (albiet less talented then the Lakers, but still underrated) supporting cast, and simply wasn't even on the same tier as Shaq was. There is no debate.
> 
> 
> 
> *^^^^Again you ignoring that you just said Howard is your canidate for mvp cause he doesn't have a roster that could be the 2nd or 3rd best player on any other teams but yet IGNORED THAT AI ALSO DIDN'T HAVE A ROSTER THAT COULD BE THE 2ND OR 3RD BEST PLAYER ON ANY OTHER TEAMS IN 01! Albert less talent? How about say far far far less talent then Shaq lakers rosters? Shaq has one of the best players in the world back in 01 in Kobe on his team while Ai has anybody on the sixers roster that is actually a real good player? Hmmm. *
> 
> 
> 
> Rose winning the MVP isn't as big of a travesty because the league doesn't have anyone on the level of a 2001 Shaquille at this point. Granted, if LeBron wasn't essentially eliminated from contention (barring 70 wins) then this would clearly be his award to lose, but because of the broken system we are left with a bigger pool of available canidates. Those canidates are Rose, Dwight, Kobe, and Durant. And out of those players *Dwight Howard has had the best individual season and that's not only backed by statistics, but anyone with eyes can see that Dwight means much more to his team than any respective super star.*Rose is a great player and is my favorite non Laker in the league. I just spent two hours raving about him in the gameday thread. I've liked the guy since he was in college. But that bias doesn't change the fact that I'm not comfortable with giving the award to someone who isn't a top five player at the very least.
> 
> 
> *Howard isn't even the top 5 best players in the world today but yet you think he is the canidate and should be mvp while Ai shouldn't be mvp in 01 even though he's the 2nd or 3rd best player in 01? :laugh:*
> 
> If you're going to come in here with what you call a counter argument, atleast articulate yourself so that it doesn't look like a second graders rough draft.
> 
> 
> 
> *^^^^^I call it owning you very well since i explain quite easily of why i feel Ai deserves to win mvp in 01 and Rose deserves to win mvp this year. You can't admit you're wrong cause it eats you up badly. I've proving my point while you couldn't come up with a good response.*


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

It's one thing to not know what the hell you're talking about. It's an entirely different thing to walk around like you're some basketball god while destroying the english language in the process.

Are you not reading this thread? I want LeBron to win the MVP because he's the best player in the leauge. I know that he won't win it because of the media's unrealistic expectations of his team and so I'm pulling for the next best canidate. And the next best canidate is Dwight. So maybe you should try and understand what I'm trying to say before you run your mouth.

Anyone who doesn't consider Dwight a top five player at this point is a ****ing moron. LeBron is in the first tier by himself, followed by the Kobe/Wade/Dwight tier. After that I'd go Durant, but the top four are clearly set in stone.

Again, Howard shouldn't be the MVP. LeBron should be the MVP. Get that through your head. The voters will not vote for LeBron due to the unrealistic standards set in the offseason. Since LeBron is essentially disqualified, Howard is the next best choice. He has had a better season than Rose. He means more to his team than Rose. He's a better player than Rose. It's not a debate.

Again, if you're going to try and throw out phrases like "owning you" and "can't come up with a counter argument" atleast do so while being grammatically correct.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> It's one thing to not know what the hell you're talking about. It's an entirely different thing to walk around like you're some basketball god while destroying the english language in the process.
> 
> 
> ^^^^*You easily know what i'm talking about. You can't admit i'm right and you're way wrong.*
> 
> Are you not reading this thread? I want LeBron to win the MVP because he's the best player in the leauge. I know that he won't win it because of the media's unrealistic expectations of his team and so I'm pulling for the next best canidate. And the next best canidate is Dwight. So maybe you should try and understand what I'm trying to say before you run your mouth.
> 
> 
> ^^^^*First off "english teacher" There's nobody here that is more of a Lebron fan then me in which cause i'm being way unbiased but as much as i'm a fan of his, he's not the mvp this year just simply the fact he has 2 great players on his team in Wade and Bosh. He has 1 superstar on his team in Wade while Rose has no other great players on his team. Second off,Many thought the heat would win 70 or more games from the start of the season while nobody really thought the bulls would have the best record in the eastern conference or inch to have the best record in the nba.*
> 
> Anyone who doesn't consider Dwight a top five player at this point is a ****ing moron. LeBron is in the first tier by himself, followed by the Kobe/Wade/Dwight tier. After that I'd go Durant, but the top four are clearly set in stone.
> 
> 
> 
> *^^^Anyone who consider Dwight as a top five player at this point is a complete ****ing moron. Imo Kobe is the best player in the nba while Lebron is number 2. The top five are clearly this in order.
> 
> 
> 1. Kobe
> 
> 2. Lebron
> 
> 3. Wade
> 
> 4. Melo
> 
> 5. Durant
> ^^^^And i'm not even close to a Melo fan. In fact i hate Melo guts but i'm being honest. *
> 
> Again, Howard shouldn't be the MVP. LeBron should be the MVP. Get that through your head. The voters will not vote for LeBron due to the unrealistic standards set in the offseason. Since LeBron is essentially disqualified, Howard is the next best choice. He has had a better season than Rose. He means more to his team than Rose. He's a better player than Rose. It's not a debate.
> 
> 
> ^^^^*Get this through your thick head, i'm a huge Lebron fan more then anybody and i do mean ANYBODY!!! But i don't feel he's the mvp cause the point i just made in my other short paragraphs.*
> 
> Again, if you're going to try and throw out phrases like "owning you" and "can't come up with a counter argument" atleast do so while being grammatically correct.
> 
> 
> ^^^^* If you're comeback is the "english language", "grammar" then it's easily the worst comeback i have ever read.*


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

That didn't make sense.

LeBron's teammates have nothing to do with the fact that he is the best player in the leauge. I hate LeBron and Kobe is my favorite player of all time but this has been a generally accepted fact since the 2009 season. There's no denying it anymore. It's LeBron's league and the best player deserves the MVP. Unfortunately, we live in a broken system and he was never going to be taken seriously as a canidate. 

The fact that you have Carmelo freaking Anthony in your top five pretty much settles this. You either don't watch the sport or can't understand what you're watching. It's one of the two.

Your "short paragraphs" consist of a sentence saying that LeBron has good teammates and how they should have won more games. Nothing to do with why or why not he is the best player in the league. Don't try and pretend like you've written some concise argument.

It's not a comeback. It's a fact. It's annoying reading posts from someone who clearly has not mastered the english language and for whatever reason believes that he is some other worldly basketball databank, dispite bringing hardly anything factual to the debate.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> VanillaPrice said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's one thing to not know what the hell you're talking about. It's an entirely different thing to walk around like you're some basketball god while destroying the english language in the process.
> 
> 
> ^^^^*You easily know what i'm talking about. You can't admit i'm right and you're way wrong.*
> 
> Are you not reading this thread? I want LeBron to win the MVP because he's the best player in the leauge. I know that he won't win it because of the media's unrealistic expectations of his team and so I'm pulling for the next best canidate. And the next best canidate is Dwight. So maybe you should try and understand what I'm trying to say before you run your mouth.
> 
> 
> ^^^^*First off "english teacher" There's nobody here that is more of a Lebron fan then me in which cause i'm being way unbiased but as much as i'm a fan of his, he's not the mvp this year just simply the fact he has 2 great players on his team in Wade and Bosh. He has 1 superstar on his team in Wade while Rose has no other great players on his team. Second off,Many thought the heat would win 70 or more games from the start of the season while nobody really thought the bulls would have the best record in the eastern conference or inch to have the best record in the nba.*
> 
> Anyone who doesn't consider Dwight a top five player at this point is a ****ing moron. LeBron is in the first tier by himself, followed by the Kobe/Wade/Dwight tier. After that I'd go Durant, but the top four are clearly set in stone.
> 
> 
> 
> *^^^Anyone who consider Dwight as a top five player at this point is a complete ****ing moron. Imo Kobe is the best player in the nba while Lebron is number 2. The top five are clearly this in order.
> 
> 
> 1. Kobe
> 
> 2. Lebron
> 
> 3. Wade
> 
> 4. Melo
> 
> 5. Durant
> ^^^^And i'm not even close to a Melo fan. In fact i hate Melo guts but i'm being honest. *
> 
> Again, Howard shouldn't be the MVP. LeBron should be the MVP. Get that through your head. The voters will not vote for LeBron due to the unrealistic standards set in the offseason. Since LeBron is essentially disqualified, Howard is the next best choice. He has had a better season than Rose. He means more to his team than Rose. He's a better player than Rose. It's not a debate.
> 
> 
> ^^^^*Get this through your thick head, i'm a huge Lebron fan more then anybody and i do mean ANYBODY!!! But i don't feel he's the mvp cause the point i just made in my other short paragraphs.*
> 
> Again, if you're going to try and throw out phrases like "owning you" and "can't come up with a counter argument" atleast do so while being grammatically correct.
> 
> 
> ^^^^* If you're comeback is the "english language", "grammar" then it's easily the worst comeback i have ever read.*
> 
> 
> 
> Please, try and talk rationally without putting everyone else down with exclamation points and name calling. Its cool to trash talk once in a while but when you're trying to make a point, then just make you're point without being ignorant. You're calling Melo a top 5 player and Howard is not, thats probably the most ridiculous statement I've seen on these boards since I've been here. Explain yourself in a rational way and give reasonable arguments otherwise people will just start ignoring what you're saying.
Click to expand...


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> That didn't make sense.
> 
> 
> *^^^^^Not surprise considering you can't reply a good comeback at all.*
> LeBron's teammates have nothing to do with the fact that he is the best player in the leauge. I hate LeBron and Kobe is my favorite player of all time but this has been a generally accepted fact since the 2009 season. There's no denying it anymore. It's LeBron's league and the best player deserves the MVP. Unfortunately, we live in a broken system and he was never going to be taken seriously as a canidate.
> 
> 
> 
> *^^^Yea that makes alot of sense that Lebron is the number 1 best player in the world while he still hasn't won a ring while Kobe as the first option for the lakers has won 2 rings in a row. Kobe is far more clutch then Lebron is. Hell i use to think last year that Lebron was the best player in the world but the way he play vs the celtics last year in the playoffs and the way he quit in game 5 of that series prove easily that kobe was and still is the number 1 best player in the world.*
> 
> The fact that you have Carmelo freaking Anthony in your top five pretty much settles this. You either don't watch the sport or can't understand what you're watching. It's one of the two.
> 
> 
> *^^The fact that you basically the only knuckle head that doesn't think Melo is the top 5 best player just prove once again that you're making yourself look like a damn fool. Nobody from former players, active players, coaches, media (your favorite) ever consider Howard as a top 5 best player while MANY and i do mean MANY! Consider Melo as the top 5 best player. Melo is the best 1 on 1 scorer in the nba. And Melo is one of the best or is THE best clutch shooters in the world today. And i don't even like Melo. *
> 
> Your "short paragraphs" consist of a sentence saying that LeBron has good teammates and how they should have won more games. Nothing to do with why or why not he is the best player in the league. Don't try and pretend like you've written some concise argument.
> 
> 
> 
> *I've already give you why i feel Kobe is better then Lebron in which i'll keep this short sentence.*
> 
> It's not a comeback. It's a fact. It's annoying reading posts from someone who clearly has not mastered the english language and for whatever reason believes that he is some other worldly basketball databank, dispite bringing hardly anything factual to the debate.
> 
> 
> *^^^It's really annoying that you ignore with mostly the paragraphs, sentence that i respond to you. but yet most your response is "english language", "grammar". *


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> rayz789 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please, try and talk rationally without putting everyone else down with exclamation points and name calling. Its cool to trash talk once in a while but when you're trying to make a point, then just make you're point without being ignorant. You're calling Melo a top 5 player and Howard is not, thats probably the most ridiculous statement I've seen on these boards since I've been here. Explain yourself in a rational way and give reasonable arguments otherwise people will just start ignoring what you're saying.
> 
> *Actually since i guess you haven't read the rest of the arguemts, the only person that is trying to put any person down mostly on me is vanilla in which i've try to have a good nba basketball talk but all he mostly does is insulting me with "english language", "grammar" and so on. But since he's an admin or a mod i guess that's ok.
> 
> 
> 
> The most ridiculous statement? Really??? Tell me drunkmaster opps i mean dunkmaster, while i've read from alot of either nbatv, espn, tnt, the writers, former players have said Melo is the top 5 best player in the world while nobody on either networks, former players have said Howard is the top 4 or top 5 best player in the world. Yes howard is a dominate center but the top 5 best player? lmfao. To be a top 5 best player, a player needs to atleast be a bit of a clutch shooter in which case Howard is NONE!!!!!!! Look smarty Howard is a dominate player but he is no mean a top 5 best player. For freaking sakes besides him being a monster downlow in hooks and dunks, he can't do anything else. Howard is a not a midrange shooter, not even close to a 3 point shooter, terrible free throw shooter. Melo can go inside at will. Melo can hit the outside shots. He can hit the midrange shots. Melo is a real good free throw shooter. And oh Melo is the best CLUTCH SHOOTER IN THE WORLD TODAY!!!!! You and vanilla are something else. Whats next Yao Ming was the top 3 or 4 best player when he was healthy? lol. *
Click to expand...


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> DunkMaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rayz789 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please, try and talk rationally without putting everyone else down with exclamation points and name calling. Its cool to trash talk once in a while but when you're trying to make a point, then just make you're point without being ignorant. You're calling Melo a top 5 player and Howard is not, thats probably the most ridiculous statement I've seen on these boards since I've been here. Explain yourself in a rational way and give reasonable arguments otherwise people will just start ignoring what you're saying.
> 
> Actually since i guess you haven't read the rest of the arguemts, the only person that is trying to put any person down mostly on me is vanilla in which i've try to have a good nba basketball talk but all he mostly does is insulting me with "english language", "grammar" and so on. But since he's an admin or a mod i guess that's ok.
> 
> 
> 
> The most ridiculous statement? Really??? Tell me drunkmaster opps i mean dunkmaster, while i've read from alot of either the* onion or the enquirer* have said Melo is the top 5 best player in the world while nobody on either networks, former players have said Howard is the top 4 or top 5 best player in the world.
> 
> 
> 
> you need new sources of info bro
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> rayz789 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DunkMaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> you need new sources of info bro
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have espn, nba tv, tnt??? If so and if you're a big nba fan you should know by now that mostly every writers, former players from nba tv, tnt, espn have all said melo is the top 5 best player while nobody from either network that are former players, writers have said howard is the top 4 or top 5. Is Howard a good free throw shooter? Is howard a good midrange shooter? Is howard a good 3 point shooter? Is howard even a clutch shooter? <<<<If not then how can you and vanilla actually think howard is the top 5 best player and melo isn't? Melo has proven why he is the top 5 but i believe he's better then durant so i put melo as top 4 best player.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> DunkMaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rayz789 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have espn, nba tv, tnt??? If so and if you're a big nba fan you should know by now that mostly every writers, former players from nba tv, tnt, espn have all said melo is the top 5 best player while nobody from either network that are former players, writers have said howard is the top 4 or top 5. Is Howard a good free throw shooter? Is howard a good midrange shooter? Is howard a good 3 point shooter? Is howard even a clutch shooter? <<<<If not then how can you and vanilla actually think howard is the top 5 best player and melo isn't? Melo has proven why he is the top 5 but i believe he's better then durant so i put melo as top 4 best player.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see those stations saying Melo is top 5 and Howard isn't, sorry. Lets not bring defense into this, since I know you don't think it matters.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> rayz789 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DunkMaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see those stations saying Melo is top 5 and Howard isn't, sorry. *Lets not bring defense into this, since I know you don't think it matters*.
> 
> 
> 
> *First off if you don't see it from those stations then i guess you're ain't a real nba fan. <<<Sorry but that just prove why you're not a true nba fan if you didn't know from those stations from writers, former players have said melo is the top 4 or 5 best player while nobody mention howard is.
> 
> 
> Second off Of course howard is a far better defense in which he should be cause of his HUGE MUSCLE size. How can you say who's better between those 2 if they play far different positions and far different style? Howard is an inside threat while he's not a midrange, outside, freethrow shooter at all. He's not even a clutch shooter. And whats funny is howard is not even the top 3 clutch shooter on the magic lol. *
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> DunkMaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rayz789 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have espn, nba tv, tnt??? If so and if you're a big nba fan you should know by now that mostly every writers, former players from nba tv, tnt, espn have all said melo is the top 5 best player while nobody from either network that are former players, writers have said howard is the top 4 or top 5. Is Howard a good free throw shooter? Is howard a good midrange shooter? Is howard a good 3 point shooter? Is howard even a clutch shooter? <<<<If not then how can you and vanilla actually think howard is the top 5 best player and melo isn't? Melo has proven why he is the top 5 but i believe he's better then durant so i put melo as top 4 best player.
> 
> 
> 
> Howard is a a better player then Melo, his impact on defense is greater then Melo's impact on offense. Melo is not a top 5 player, he is in the top ten, but he is not 1st tier elite.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> rayz789 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DunkMaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Howard is a a better player then Melo, his impact on defense is greater then Melo's impact on offense. Melo is not a top 5 player, he is in the top ten, but he is not 1st tier elite.
> 
> *Howard is a better defender cause he's a F4CKING HUGE CENTER!!! Why you, dunk keep mentioning of defense? Come up better then that arguement please. If you think Howard is better then Melo cause of defense then Bynum who imo is the 2nd best center in the nba is better then Durant cause he's a better defender.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Game3525

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Game3525 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rayz789 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DunkMaster said:
> 
> 
> 
> Howard is a a better player then Melo, his impact on defense is greater then Melo's impact on offense. Melo is not a top 5 player, he is in the top ten, but he is not 1st tier elite.
> 
> *Howard is a better defender cause he's a F4CKING HUGE CENTER!!! Why you, dunk keep mentioning of defense? Come up better then that arguement please. If you think Howard is better then Melo cause of defense then Bynum who imo is the 2nd best center in the nba is better then Durant cause he's a better defender.*
> 
> 
> 
> The gap on offense between Melo and Dwight is smaller then the gap is between Melo and Howard on defense. Using Bynum and Durant as analogy just reeks of failure. Anyway, what makes Howard a great defender isn't just his size, there are a ton of guys bigger then him who can't guard a lick. Howard has good speed, strength, and instincts when it comes to contesting shots, he is also one of the best rebounders in the league, and his offensive game has improved dramatically over the past few years.
> 
> Melo is a great volume scorer and clutch player, but outside of those two areas he is average or below average in most key aspects of the game. Howard is simply the more valuable player and better player, the fact that the Magic are ranked so high on defense while having guys like Ryan Anderson, Hedo, Arenas, and J-Rich playing huge minutes tell you how great he is on defense.
> 
> Howard simply has a bigger impact on the game then Melo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Off-topic but what's with you guys not quoting the right things? It looks weird.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Game3525 said:


> rayz789 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Game3525 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rayz789 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The gap on offense between Melo and Dwight is smaller then the gap is between Melo and Howard on defense. Using Bynum and Durant as analogy just reeks of failure. Anyway, what makes Howard a great defender isn't just his size, there are a ton of guys bigger then him who can't guard a lick. Howard has good speed, strength, and instincts when it comes to contesting shots, he is also one of the best rebounders in the league, and his offensive game has improved dramatically over the past few years.
> 
> Melo is a great volume scorer and clutch player, but outside of those two areas he is average or below average in most key aspects of the game. Howard is simply the more valuable player and better player, the fact that the Magic are ranked so high on defense while having guys like Ryan Anderson, Hedo, Arenas, and J-Rich playing huge minutes tell you how great he is on defense.
> 
> Howard simply has a bigger impact on the game then Melo.
> 
> 
> 
> First off using Bynum and Durant is a good analogy is very good cause Bynum is clearly the second best center in the nba and one of the top 5 best big man defenders in the nba. Durant like Melo is a big time scorer but since you think Howard is better then Melo cause of defense even though he's a huge f4cking center then i guess Bynum is better then Durant cause Bynum is a better defender. For real this stuff about Howard is better then Melo cause of defense is easily the weakest reason i have EVER EVER EVER READ!!! LMFAO @ Howard is better then Melo cause he's a better defender. :laugh::laugh::laugh:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Then i guess Hakeem was better then Jordan cause he was a better defender. I guess Mutumbo was the first option for the sixers cause he's a better defender then Ai. <<<I can go on and on but you guys are something else.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Wait if Howard is better then Melo cause he's a better defender then Howard is the number 1 best player in the world today since he's a better defender then Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Durant, Melo. :laugh:


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> Then i guess Hakeem was better then Jordan cause he was a better defender. I guess Mutumbo was the first option for the sixers cause he's a better defender then Ai. <<<I can go on and on but you guys are something else.


Can you argue without putting in smileys, LMFAOs, and insults every other sentence? I'm a bit embarrassed to even debate you tbh. This isn't what people are saying at all, its a combination of the two. Melo is around a top 5 scorer, and barely tries on defense. Dwight is the best defender in the league, and scores 23 points a game. You can say thats its because he's a huge center, just like you can say Melo is good on offense because of his god-given abilities.


----------



## sonicFLAME6

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Wow, this thread took a turn for disaster. My eyes hurt trying to make out most of this. Anyone who has Melo in their top 5 is delusional. Anyone who believes LeBron is not the best player in the league because Wade and Bosh are his teamates has mental issues. Wade and Bosh have no say on how good of an individual player LeBron, it doesn't even make sense.
If we use that stupid argument, your #2 LeBron has Wade and Bosh so he's not #1, Then #1 Kobe has Gasol/Bynum and Lamar so he should not be number #1. Then you got Wade as #3 so he can't be number #1 cause he has LeBron and Bosh. So that leaves Melo as #1, but wait he has Amare and Billups so that can't be. I guess the best player in the league is Durant according to your logic.


----------



## SheriffKilla

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

smh. What are you guys doing to my thread. Melo is one of my favorite players in the league and I still think Dwight Howard is overrated but no way is Melo a better player. It's not even really THAT close, you can't argue it. Howard is just better plain and simple. They are different but Howard is better without a doubt.


----------



## PaCeRhOLiC

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Yeah, there's no question Howard is better than Melo, but I'm hoping is anyone but that dirty bum.

I liked Howard at the beginning, but he got dirtier, and goofier as the years went by..

Although I hate it, that chump Rose got it locked up...We'll see how he chokes next week...:clown:


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



SheriffKilla said:


> smh. What are you guys doing to my thread. Melo is one of my favorite players in the league and I still think Dwight Howard is overrated but no way is Melo a better player. It's not even really THAT close, you can't argue it. Howard is just better plain and simple. They are different but Howard is better without a doubt.


How can anybody sit their with their computer and tell me Howard is better then Melo? How can 1 be better then the other if their play far different position with far different styles? Look at Howard size compare to Melo for real. If Howard is better because of his awesome defense then he's the number 1 best player in the nba cause he's a better defender then Lebron, Kobe, Durant, Melo, Wade since as vanilla love to mention cause the way he help his team on his own and be 1 superstar. <<<<Don't ignored it people if you all feel this way.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Too me to be the top 5 best players, has to do more then dunk and hook shots. <<<Whatelse Howard does in offense besides those things? With Howard size he can score easier then Melo, Lebron, Wade, Kobe, Durant. Melo, Wade, Durant, Lebron, Kobe have to do alot of difficult things to score besides staying down low to dunk. Melo Like Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Durant can drive in at will. Melo like Lebron, WAde, Durant, Kobe can hit the outside shots in which HOWARD CAN NEVER DO! Melo is a real good free throw shooter in which between those 5 players is top 3 in free throws next to Durant and Kobe. Melo is one of the best or is the best CLUTCH SHOOTERS IN THE WORLD TODAY! So again if Howard is better then Melo cause he is a better defender while can still score 23 or 24 more points pergame then Howard is the number 1 best player in the world today cause not only can he score but HE'S A FAR FAR BETTER DEFENDER THEN LEBRON, WADE, KOBE, DURANT, MELO! <<<<<If you people want to go that way then i think i just did one better in which proves that Howard being a better player then Melo is FREAKING STUPID!!!!!


----------



## Hyperion

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> How can anybody sit their with their computer and tell me Howard is better then Melo? How can 1 be better then the other if their play far different position with far different styles? Look at Howard size compare to Melo for real. If Howard is better because of his awesome defense then he's the number 1 best player in the nba cause he's a better defender then Lebron, Kobe, Durant, Melo, Wade since as vanilla love to mention cause the way he help his team on his own and be 1 superstar. <<<<Don't ignored it people if you all feel this way.


I don't post with a computer. That's so 20th century.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Charles Barkley last night said Derrick Rose is the best player in the entire world right now. Seeing more and more of this type of thing. Rose is going to have a lot to live up to in the playoffs this year, and for his career going forward.

I mean the way it's being set up right now, if the Bulls do anything short of winning a good finals showing, the season will have been a failure. Which seems a lot to expect from a team that last year didn't even make it out of the first round.

Not entirely sure that's a reasonable expectation.

What's funny is that Durant was getting all of this hype in the preseason, and then when he didn't come out and set the league on fire, people forgot about him, and now his Thunder team is actually set up to actually accomplish what they were hyped to do to start the season--but almost under the radar.

The NBA media is a fickle beast.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Bulls with the MVP, likely coach of the year, best defense, and best record are title or bust at this point. There is no excuse for a team with the best player, best coach, good support players and a great system to lose. Every other team is flawed in some way.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Bulls with the MVP, likely coach of the year, best defense, and best record are title or bust at this point. There is no excuse for a team with the best player, best coach, good support players and a great system to lose. Every other team is flawed in some way.


Of course what was the last time the team with all of those attributes actually did win the title? The Sixers had the MVP, DPOY, Sixth Man, COY and still got beat down by a superior Lakers team in the finals. 

Incidentally that Sixers team beat a "Big Three" on their way to said titles beat down.

Perhaps history repeats itself.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Bulls with the MVP, likely coach of the year, best defense, and best record are title or bust at this point. There is no excuse for a team with the best player, best coach, good support players and a great system to lose. Every other team is flawed in some way.


When other teams, have more than one player in the top five, and top 10 plus a better supporting cast, and you have a team chalk full of veteran all stars, all of the teams by the way have just as good coaching. There is plenty reasons why Chicago shouldn't win it.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

By the way didn't Mike Brown win COTY, and LeBron James win MVP ?? What the hell happened there. They didn't win jack. Point is, it's pretty asinine to think just cause you have the MVP on your team that means you're going to win the NBA title. Actually someone should go through the MVP history and see how many actually won the title and MVP, and how many didn't.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Of course what was the last time the team with all of those attributes actually did win the title? The Sixers had the MVP, DPOY, Sixth Man, COY and still got beat down by a superior Lakers team in the finals.
> 
> Incidentally that Sixers team beat a "Big Three" on their way to said titles beat down.
> 
> Perhaps history repeats itself.


Well the Lakers had atleast one (Shaquille) and maybe two players who deserved MVP more than Iverson that year. Plus Phil is a better coach than Larry Brown, COY be damned. But the Lakers were powerhouses and everybody knew it, and Iverson/Sixers were an underdog cinderella so they scooped up all the awards. That year was actually a good parallel to what's happening this year. Rose is the cool underdog story who headlined a great defensive team and won a bunch of games. LeBron and Wade are the Shaquille and Kobe powerhouses who nobody likes because they're great and everybody expects them to dominate.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> By the way didn't Mike Brown win COTY, and LeBron James win MVP ?? What the hell happened there. They didn't win jack. Point is, it's pretty asinine to think just cause you have the MVP on your team that means you're going to win the NBA title. Actually someone should go through the MVP history and see how many actually won the title and MVP, and how many didn't.


The media killed LeBron for not winning the title the past two years. If Rose doesn't win, will the backlash justly be as severe? You'd think so, because Rose has a better cast than LeBron did. I doubt Rose will be criticized at all though, because he is going to win MVP as an underdog cinderella story. LeBron won as the juggernaut who you really couldn't deny the award. 

Nobody criticizes a cinderella story for losing.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Bulls with the MVP, likely coach of the year, best defense, and best record are title or bust at this point. There is no excuse for a team with the best player, best coach, good support players and a great system to lose. Every other team is flawed in some way.


I sense a bit of sarcasm but you're pretty much right on, they should win it.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> When other teams, have more than one player in the top five, and top 10 plus a better supporting cast, and you have a team chalk full of veteran all stars, all of the teams by the way have just as good coaching. There is plenty reasons why Chicago shouldn't win it.


I would think having the best player on the court in any series, and best coach, along with a really good supporting cast would put you in position to beat anybody.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I would think having the best player on the court in any series, and best coach, along with a really good supporting cast would put you in position to beat anybody.


You don't think that, otherwise you would of thought LeBron would have two championships already. As the Cavs were one of the best defensive teams/best player/best coach etc and they couldn't even get out of the second round last year against the senior citizen home team that is Boston.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Well the Lakers had atleast one (Shaquille) and maybe two players who deserved MVP more than Iverson that year. Plus Phil is a better coach than Larry Brown, COY be damned. But the Lakers were powerhouses and everybody knew it, and Iverson/Sixers were an underdog cinderella so they scooped up all the awards. That year was actually a good parallel to what's happening this year. Rose is the cool underdog story who headlined a great defensive team and won a bunch of games. LeBron and Wade are the Shaquille and Kobe powerhouses who nobody likes because they're great and everybody expects them to dominate.


Two key differences, that Laker team was better than the Miami Heat are now, and Rose is a better teammate than Iverson ever was.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> You don't think that, otherwise you would of thought LeBron would have two championships already. As the Cavs were one of the best defensive teams/best player/best coach etc and they couldn't even get out of the second round last year against the senior citizen home team that is Boston.


That's kind of my point though. If LeBron is the measuring stick, things don't look good for Rose if he doesn't win. I wonder how Rose will handle being criticized that much?


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> That's kind of my point though. If LeBron is the measuring stick, things don't look good for Rose if he doesn't win. I wonder how Rose will handle being criticized that much?


I don't think that LeBron is a good comparison to Rose. Two very different players with two very different human interest stories. Only way Rose gets thrown under the bus by the media is if the Bulls lose in the first round. I believe the East is much more steep in competition this season than it was the past in which the Cavs were set up to try and win the chip.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> I don't think that LeBron is a good comparison to Rose. Two very different players with two very different human interest stories. Only way Rose gets thrown under the bus by the media is if the Bulls lose in the first round. I believe the East is much more steep in competition this season than it was the past in which the Cavs were set up to try and win the chip.


I don't agree with that. Celtics of the past two years were better than any team in the east this year.


----------



## 77AJ

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Sir Patchwork said:


> I don't agree with that. Celtics of the past two years were better than any team in the east this year.


You don't agree ? come on patch. You still have Boston, Orlando, but now you also have Miami and Chicago. It's obviously more steep, and you had the emergence of the Knicks with Amare/Melo/Billups. The East is clearly better this season than it has been. And last season the Boston Celtics walked into the playoffs on crutches. Many people here, and media included didn't think Boston was a contender last year. Come on man. And the year before that remember Boston didn't even have KG.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

The east is deeper, but it's less top heavy with Boston falling off. The 4 teams at the top right now are really good teams, but none of them are great teams like the 2008 and 2010 Celtics. 

Depth doesn't really make a difference though. You only lose to 1 team.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> You don't think that, otherwise you would of thought LeBron would have two championships already. As the Cavs were one of the best defensive teams/best player/best coach etc and they couldn't even get out of the second round last year against *the senior citizen home team that is Boston*.


The Celtics didn't play like a very old team in which they barely lost in game 7 to the lakers in the finals in which they play without Perkins.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



23AJ said:


> You don't agree ? come on patch. You still have Boston, Orlando, but now you also have Miami and Chicago. It's obviously more steep, and you had the emergence of the Knicks with Amare/Melo/Billups. The East is clearly better this season than it has been. And *last season the Boston Celtics walked into the playoffs on crutches.* Many people here, and media included didn't think Boston was a contender last year. Come on man. And the year before that remember Boston didn't even have KG.


Huh?


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> *^^^^^Not surprise considering you can't reply a good comeback at all.*
> 
> *^^^Yea that makes alot of sense that Lebron is the number 1 best player in the world while he still hasn't won a ring while Kobe as the first option for the lakers has won 2 rings in a row. Kobe is far more clutch then Lebron is. Hell i use to think last year that Lebron was the best player in the world but the way he play vs the celtics last year in the playoffs and the way he quit in game 5 of that series prove easily that kobe was and still is the number 1 best player in the world.*
> 
> 
> *^^The fact that you basically the only knuckle head that doesn't think Melo is the top 5 best player just prove once again that you're making yourself look like a damn fool. Nobody from former players, active players, coaches, media (your favorite) ever consider Howard as a top 5 best player while MANY and i do mean MANY! Consider Melo as the top 5 best player. Melo is the best 1 on 1 scorer in the nba. And Melo is one of the best or is THE best clutch shooters in the world today. And i don't even like Melo. *
> 
> 
> *I've already give you why i feel Kobe is better then Lebron in which i'll keep this short sentence.*
> 
> 
> *^^^It's really annoying that you ignore with mostly the paragraphs, sentence that i respond to you. but yet most your response is "english language", "grammar". *


First off I'm not seeing the dificulty behind quoting me using the "quote" feature. It's pretty self explanatory.

Uh oh. Mr. witty over here is butchering the english language and not taking names. Kid's coming for everybody.

LeBron is the best player in the league because he's the best player in the world. LeBron is better at every facet of the game at this point sans shooting (and I'm actually not a fan of his man defense, but whatever). He's a better scorer, rebounder, passer, and weakside defender than Bryant at this point. You can blame LeBron for his faults all you want but the fact of the matter is that he was going to war with players that could not step up to the plate. Those supporting casts were not championship calibur and there's simply no way to argue that. Now, if LeBron can't win in Miami then you may have a case, but at this point he hasn't been given a fair chance.

The media? My favorite? Are you ****ing kidding me? I've spent literally this entire thread bashing the media. You're proving over and over again that you not only write on a second grade level, but you can't comprehend anything that you're reading. Seriously, it's not that difficult.

You have no case for 'Melo being a top five player. He is a good one on one scorer. That's it. He does nothing else at an above average level. He's an average rebounder, an awful defender, a piss poor passer, and a black hole on offense. He's not a top five player. Hell, you keep pointing out his "clutchness" while ignoring the fact that he's been downright *awful* in 6 of his first 7 postseasons. That doesn't look like a "clutch" player to me. That sounds like a choker.

Dwight Howard is the best defender in the league and is leading all centers (sans Amare) in scoring. He's improved (somewhat) as a passer and is still a top three rebounder and shotblocker in the game.

You keep pointing to the lack of Howard's offensive arsenal. That doesn't stop him from putting up a really efficient 23 a night. It doesn't matter how pretty it looks when it goes in, just that is does infact go in the basket.

You just need to stop. You're ruining this thread with asinine statement after asinine statement. At a certain point I'm starting to wonder if this is all a joke account.


----------



## sophia0

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Kobe Bryant must be better than Wade. Love him:clown:


----------



## S.jR.

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Derrick Rosé!!!!!


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Eddie House!


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

It really doesn't matter where you guys put drose in the rank of top nba players, he's obv in the top ten and approaching even haters top 5 lists. The thing about this guy that is different than every other top 10 player is his drive. Pretty much every interview and profile about him shows that he is so much more focused on his nba career compared to the other top players that barring injury he is destined for much more than whatever rating you guys want to give him now. He recently was talking to a reporter about how he doesn't go out because it exerts too much energy and he just plays video games and naps when not at the Berto Center. He is already talking about next summers workouts. He doesn't workout like the other guys, maybe 3 or 4 1 hour workouts a week. He literally spends 4-5 hours every day in the summer getting better. The only concern about him is burning out. Luckily he won't have Summer Olympics to worry about and he will get better. Top that off with a great attitude and you have one of the best players in the 21st century.


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Rose doesn't really have any haters. Just people who are backlashing against hype. Most people like the player, but are hating the game. Even in this thread. I haven't seen too many people attacking Rose or his game, only saying that the hype is not equal to the results.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> First off I'm not seeing the dificulty behind quoting me using the "quote" feature. It's pretty self explanatory.
> 
> Uh oh. Mr. witty over here is butchering the english language and not taking names. Kid's coming for everybody.
> 
> LeBron is the best player in the league because he's the best player in the world. LeBron is better at every facet of the game at this point sans shooting (and I'm actually not a fan of his man defense, but whatever). He's a better scorer, rebounder, passer, and weakside defender than Bryant at this point. You can blame LeBron for his faults all you want but the fact of the matter is that he was going to war with players that could not step up to the plate. Those supporting casts were not championship calibur and there's simply no way to argue that. Now, if LeBron can't win in Miami then you may have a case, but at this point he hasn't been given a fair chance.
> 
> The media? My favorite? Are you ****ing kidding me? I've spent literally this entire thread bashing the media. You're proving over and over again that you not only write on a second grade level, but you can't comprehend anything that you're reading. Seriously, it's not that difficult.
> 
> You have no case for 'Melo being a top five player. He is a good one on one scorer. That's it. He does nothing else at an above average level. He's an average rebounder, an awful defender, a piss poor passer, and a black hole on offense. He's not a top five player. Hell, you keep pointing out his "clutchness" while ignoring the fact that he's been downright *awful* in 6 of his first 7 postseasons. That doesn't look like a "clutch" player to me. That sounds like a choker.
> 
> Dwight Howard is the best defender in the league and is leading all centers (sans Amare) in scoring. He's improved (somewhat) as a passer and is still a top three rebounder and shotblocker in the game.
> 
> You keep pointing to the lack of Howard's offensive arsenal. That doesn't stop him from putting up a really efficient 23 a night. It doesn't matter how pretty it looks when it goes in, just that is does infact go in the basket.
> 
> You just need to stop. You're ruining this thread with asinine statement after asinine statement. At a certain point I'm starting to wonder if this is all a joke account.




*Again I'VE SAID THIS BEFORE YOU FREAKING KNUCKLEHEAD THAT AT FIRST I THOUGHT LEBRON WAS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD IN WHICH THE STUFF YOU SAY ABOUT THE SUPPORTING CAST, I'VE SAID TO A FRIEND OF MINE WHO LOVE KOBE MORE THEN ANYBODY!! But there's no excuse at all for Lebron to quit in game 5 vs the celtics when the series was tie 2-2. <<<Absolutely no excuse on his part. His team was at home but yet Lebron couldn't deliver. I guess he send a message that he'll quit on his team in which he send a message that he's leaving. And btw incase you forgot I'M A HUGE LEBRON FAN!!*



*Look here smart a$$, i've said this many times already but i guess you too dumb to remember. Look i've already said that many people from either the media, FORMER NBA PLAYERS, ACTIVE COACHES HAVE SAID THAT MELO IS THE TOP 5 BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD TODAY!! NOBODY FROM THOSE HAS EVER ****ING SAID THAT HOWARD IS THE TOP 4 OR 5 BEST PLAYER. YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY? CAUSE DUH HE'S A F4CKING HUGE MUSCLE CENTER THAT MOSTLY DUNKS!! AND DUH!! OF COURSE HE IS A BETTER DEFENDER THEN MELO I MEAN JUST LOOK AT HIS F4CKING SIZE YOU FREAKING IDIOT! I swear to god, you talk like you don't watch much of nba basketball from this year to the other years from the past. *


*You and the rest here that thinks Howard is a top 5 best player don't know sh4t. Yes Howard a dominate great center but it does not mean by the lightest that he's the top 5 best player in the world. To be the top 5 best player in the world, a player must do something besides dunking all the time or some times hook shots. How about being a good free throw shooter? How about shooting good midrange shots? How about being a good outside shooter? How about try to be a clutch shooter for just 1 time atleast? <<<Those things i mention is what a top 5 player in the world suppost to do to prove his case point blank. He's been downright awful in 6 of his 7 postseason? Well smart a$$ atleast Melo been in the postseason 7 straight times since his rookie year while Howard has missed the postseason 2 times in a row but wait should i excuse that cause he was a rookie? Well Melo was a rookie but still made it to the post season. And i bet if Howard magic was in the west from the start of howard's career all the way up to now? Howard would be missing the post season 4 or 5 times cause you know damn well that it's harder to go in the western conference playoffs then it is in the eastern conference playoffs since you Mention about Ai in 01 being in a weaker eastern conference right????? Btw you say Melo is an awful defender? Well i guess it doesn't matter but i'll say it anyway, ever since Melo has been playing for the knicks, he's been a very good improve defender in which you might have missed his great d on lebron, ai 2, granger (melo block granger 3 point shot to end the game)*


*Again of course Howard is a better defender then Melo. Hell Howard is a better defender then Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Durant, Melo. And the reason he's a better defender then those 5 i mention is cause of his huge muscle size that can jump really high. With that size and the leap, he should be a great great defender that can block shots and rebounds. Howard improve his passing? Well that's not what his stats say since his apg is 1.4 this year in which is low from 1.8 of last year. *


*
With that size, he should average 23 or 24 point per game from just dunking and hook shots in which is far easier to do then what melo does to score.*

*You need to stop trying to be a smart a$$ thinking you're always right. I've done far better arguement then you can ever do. You keep mentioning about Howard defense? I respond greatly. You mentioning Melo post season choke? I respond greatly. You mention Melo awful defense? I respond greatly. All the stuff you say i've respond better and done far better arguement. You're arguement is as worse then Goerge Foremen hbo color commentating. A little kid i bet would have done a far better arguement then you could do. *


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> *Again I'VE SAID THIS BEFORE YOU FREAKING KNUCKLEHEAD THAT AT FIRST I THOUGHT LEBRON WAS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD IN WHICH THE STUFF YOU SAY ABOUT THE SUPPORTING CAST, I'VE SAID TO A FRIEND OF MINE WHO LOVE KOBE MORE THEN ANYBODY!! But there's no excuse at all for Lebron to quit in game 5 vs the celtics when the series was tie 2-2. <<<Absolutely no excuse on his part. His team was at home but yet Lebron couldn't deliver. I guess he send a message that he'll quit on his team in which he send a message that he's leaving. And btw incase you forgot I'M A HUGE LEBRON FAN!!*
> 
> 
> 
> *Look here smart a$$, i've said this many times already but i guess you too dumb to remember. Look i've already said that many people from either the media, FORMER NBA PLAYERS, ACTIVE COACHES HAVE SAID THAT MELO IS THE TOP 5 BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD TODAY!! NOBODY FROM THOSE HAS EVER ****ING SAID THAT HOWARD IS THE TOP 4 OR 5 BEST PLAYER. YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY? CAUSE DUH HE'S A F4CKING HUGE MUSCLE CENTER THAT MOSTLY DUNKS!! AND DUH!! OF COURSE HE IS A BETTER DEFENDER THEN MELO I MEAN JUST LOOK AT HIS F4CKING SIZE YOU FREAKING IDIOT! I swear to god, you talk like you don't watch much of nba basketball from this year to the other years from the past. *
> 
> 
> *You and the rest here that thinks Howard is a top 5 best player don't know sh4t. Yes Howard a dominate great center but it does not mean by the lightest that he's the top 5 best player in the world. To be the top 5 best player in the world, a player must do something besides dunking all the time or some times hook shots. How about being a good free throw shooter? How about shooting good midrange shots? How about being a good outside shooter? How about try to be a clutch shooter for just 1 time atleast? <<<Those things i mention is what a top 5 player in the world suppost to do to prove his case point blank. He's been downright awful in 6 of his 7 postseason? Well smart a$$ atleast Melo been in the postseason 7 straight times since his rookie year while Howard has missed the postseason 2 times in a row but wait should i excuse that cause he was a rookie? Well Melo was a rookie but still made it to the post season. And i bet if Howard magic was in the west from the start of howard's career all the way up to now? Howard would be missing the post season 4 or 5 times cause you know damn well that it's harder to go far in the western conference playoffs then it is in the eastern conference playoffs since you Mention about Ai in 01 being in a weaker eastern conference right????? Btw you say Melo is an awful defender? Well i guess it doesn't matter but i'll say it anyway, ever since Melo has been playing for the knicks, he's been a very good improve defender in which you might have missed his great d on lebron, ai 2, granger (melo block granger 3 point shot to end the game)*
> 
> 
> *Again of course Howard is a better defender then Melo. Hell Howard is a better defender then Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Durant, Melo. And the reason he's a better defender then those 5 i mention is cause of his huge muscle size that can jump really high. With that size and the leap, he should be a great great defender that can block shots and rebounds. Howard improve his passing? Well that's not what his stats say since his apg is 1.4 this year in which is low from 1.8 of last year. *
> 
> 
> *
> With that size, he should average 23 or 24 point per game from just dunking and hook shots in which is far easier to do then what melo does to score.*
> 
> *You need to stop trying to be a smart a$$ thinking you're always right. I've done far better arguement then you can ever do. You keep mentioning about Howard defense? I respond greatly. You mentioning Melo post season choke? I respond greatly. You mention Melo awful defense? I respond greatly. All the stuff you say i've respond better and done far better arguement. You're arguement is as worse then Goerge Foremen hbo color commentating. A little kid i bet would have done a far better arguement then you could do. *


I'm going to take a wild guess what your response will be? Hmm? Oh i know you going to say the words like "the english language" "grammar" "you write like a 2nd grade level."


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



futuristxen said:


> Tough stretch of games coming up for the Bulls this week. Celtics, Knicks, Magic, Suns, and the Cavs in Cleveland on the night after the Boston game. If they drop even two of those the MVP discussion gets really interesting. Conversely if the Lakers end up reeling in the Spurs and getting the best record in the NBA, Kobe for MVP begins to get a lot of those Rose votes.
> 
> I wonder if Kobe and Rose could split the votes of the "best player on best team" vote, and Howard could sneak in with the consolidated vote of the "most valuable player" votes?


5-0 during said stretch.



futuristxen said:


> if the Bulls end up getting the best record, I guess I can live with the whole "best player on the best team" arguement for MVP. A month ago when Rose was crowned MVP and the Bulls were nowhere near the best record I couldn't get with just "best player on a team that people underestimated". But best player on best team is a time proven rubric, and the Bulls should get recognition in the awards for doing that.



Bulls get the best record in the NBA.

Are you on board the Rose for MVP train now?


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> Bulls get the best record in the NBA.
> 
> Are you on board the Rose for MVP train now?


Yeah I really don't have a problem with Rose winning the MVP. Best player on the best team has been the rubric for awhile. It's usually only a happy coincidence when that happens and it's the best player in the league as well. Doesn't make it right, but that's the precedent right now. At the end of the day, it's not really a big deal. It's fun to discuss and debate though, no? Probably the most debate about what the MVP should be that we've had in quite some time.


----------



## Dre

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

People really going in on something Rose already sewed up :2ti:


----------



## M.V.W.

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> *You and the rest here that thinks Howard is a top 5 best player don't know sh4t. Yes Howard a dominant great center but it does not mean by the lightest that he's the top 5 best player in the world.*


:yes:


----------



## Dre

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Best is what wins skill competitions, Value is what wins games


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



rayz789 said:


> *Again I'VE SAID THIS BEFORE YOU FREAKING KNUCKLEHEAD THAT AT FIRST I THOUGHT LEBRON WAS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD IN WHICH THE STUFF YOU SAY ABOUT THE SUPPORTING CAST, I'VE SAID TO A FRIEND OF MINE WHO LOVE KOBE MORE THEN ANYBODY!! But there's no excuse at all for Lebron to quit in game 5 vs the celtics when the series was tie 2-2. <<<Absolutely no excuse on his part. His team was at home but yet Lebron couldn't deliver. I guess he send a message that he'll quit on his team in which he send a message that he's leaving. And btw incase you forgot I'M A HUGE LEBRON FAN!!*
> 
> 
> 
> *Look here smart a$$, i've said this many times already but i guess you too dumb to remember. Look i've already said that many people from either the media, FORMER NBA PLAYERS, ACTIVE COACHES HAVE SAID THAT MELO IS THE TOP 5 BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD TODAY!! NOBODY FROM THOSE HAS EVER ****ING SAID THAT HOWARD IS THE TOP 4 OR 5 BEST PLAYER. YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY? CAUSE DUH HE'S A F4CKING HUGE MUSCLE CENTER THAT MOSTLY DUNKS!! AND DUH!! OF COURSE HE IS A BETTER DEFENDER THEN MELO I MEAN JUST LOOK AT HIS F4CKING SIZE YOU FREAKING IDIOT! I swear to god, you talk like you don't watch much of nba basketball from this year to the other years from the past. *
> 
> 
> *You and the rest here that thinks Howard is a top 5 best player don't know sh4t. Yes Howard a dominate great center but it does not mean by the lightest that he's the top 5 best player in the world. To be the top 5 best player in the world, a player must do something besides dunking all the time or some times hook shots. How about being a good free throw shooter? How about shooting good midrange shots? How about being a good outside shooter? How about try to be a clutch shooter for just 1 time atleast? <<<Those things i mention is what a top 5 player in the world suppost to do to prove his case point blank. He's been downright awful in 6 of his 7 postseason? Well smart a$$ atleast Melo been in the postseason 7 straight times since his rookie year while Howard has missed the postseason 2 times in a row but wait should i excuse that cause he was a rookie? Well Melo was a rookie but still made it to the post season. And i bet if Howard magic was in the west from the start of howard's career all the way up to now? Howard would be missing the post season 4 or 5 times cause you know damn well that it's harder to go in the western conference playoffs then it is in the eastern conference playoffs since you Mention about Ai in 01 being in a weaker eastern conference right????? Btw you say Melo is an awful defender? Well i guess it doesn't matter but i'll say it anyway, ever since Melo has been playing for the knicks, he's been a very good improve defender in which you might have missed his great d on lebron, ai 2, granger (melo block granger 3 point shot to end the game)*
> 
> 
> *Again of course Howard is a better defender then Melo. Hell Howard is a better defender then Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Durant, Melo. And the reason he's a better defender then those 5 i mention is cause of his huge muscle size that can jump really high. With that size and the leap, he should be a great great defender that can block shots and rebounds. Howard improve his passing? Well that's not what his stats say since his apg is 1.4 this year in which is low from 1.8 of last year. *
> 
> 
> *
> With that size, he should average 23 or 24 point per game from just dunking and hook shots in which is far easier to do then what melo does to score.*
> 
> *You need to stop trying to be a smart a$$ thinking you're always right. I've done far better arguement then you can ever do. You keep mentioning about Howard defense? I respond greatly. You mentioning Melo post season choke? I respond greatly. You mention Melo awful defense? I respond greatly. All the stuff you say i've respond better and done far better arguement. You're arguement is as worse then Goerge Foremen hbo color commentating. A little kid i bet would have done a far better arguement then you could do. *


I see that you've switched from smilies to posting in all bold to try and prove your point rather than logic. Good call.

I don't care about you or your friend. What your friend thinks about the best players in the league is irrelavent.

LeBron was playing injured against a superior team and lost the series. He did not have championship calibur teammates and while he may have under preformed to an extent, that's not justification for bumping him as the best player in the world. Again, I don't care about how big of a LeBron fan you are.

Keep the masked cursing up and you're going to get an infraction. It's against the rules, stop it. I'm letting you off the hook this time only because I've been playing into your stupid game and it would be hypocritical for me to give you an infraction.

I don't care what former players, current players, or the media says. People can be wrong, and anyone who says that Carmelo Anthony is a top five player is a damn fool. Honestly though I can't remember the last time I heard someone call 'Melo a top five player, so I think you're either living in the past or making things up to make yourself look smart.

Dwight Howard is a better defensive player than Anthony is an offensive one. He is also a better offensive player than 'Melo is a defensive one. He is more valuable to his team and has lead his team deeper into the playoffs and actually shows up for the postseason on a consistant basis. There is no comparison between these guys, Diwght is *clearly* the better and more valuable player. I mean hell, look at this thread, can you find one other person here that doesn't have Howard in the top five?

The thing is, you're trying to paint Howard as some one dimensional player while (ironically) pimping 'Melo as some all around all world talent. Carmelo is a talented scorer when he has the ball in his hands and he's allowed to ISO all game long. He doesn't pass, he doesn't defend, and he doesn't rebound at an exceptional level. He's a glorified (albiet talented) blackhole on offense that will *never* be the best player on a championship team.

Howard, on the other hand is far from one dimensional. He's the best defender in the league bar none. He's arguably the best rebounder (clearly top three) and the best shotblocker in the world. He scores at an impressive rate with better efficeincy than Anthony could ever dream of. Just because he doesn't have all of Anthony's cute moves doesn't change the fact that Dwight impacts the outcome of a basketball game in a way that 'Melo never will.

You're trying to tell me that all a top five player has to be able to do is score in a variety of ways. Sure. Are you telling me that Shaquille wasn't the best player in the league because he couldn't shoot from mid range? Was Duncan never the best player in the league because he can't hit threes with regularity. You're embarrassing yourself kid. There's more to basketball than shooting.

Dwight Howard walked into the worst situation in basketball when he was drafted as an 18 year old and led them to the playoffs within three years. Carmelo joined a talented Nuggets team and couldn't get out of the first round until his sixth year. Dwight has been out of the first round three straight times and has played exceptionally well in every postseason that he has been apart of, unlike 'Melo.

Comparing the Eastern conference of today and the one that AI played in during the early 2000s is not only stupid, it's ignorant. The talent level between the conferences has absolutely evened out to an extent since then and it takes a damn fool not to see otherwise.

Anthony has not been a good defender with the Knicks. You can't point to a single play and say that he's changed. That's ignorant. I could post a youtube video of Kevin Love blocking a ton of shots and would that make him better defensively than Hakeem was? Of course not. 

But Kobe, LeBron, and Wade are good enough defensively and offensively to offset Dwight's huge advantage on defense. They're two way players. Carmelo is not. I'm not going to sit here and try to teach you basketball 101. Watch a game for once.

The fact that Howard's god given athletic gifts help him win basketball games should not be held against him. Yes, he's big. Yes, he's athletic. But that doesn't change the fact that he has channeled these gifts into becoming a *much* better player than Anthony has been at any point of his career.

You've done far greater argument then I can ever do? You respond greatly? You done far greater arguement? A little kid could have done a far greater argument? I don't even think I need to say anything, it's like beating a very, very, oblivious horse here.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Rose should win MVP.

[email protected] not being a top 5 player. Dwight Howard is easily the 2nd best player in the NBA behind LeBron.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



VanillaPrice said:


> I see that you've switched from smilies to posting in all bold to try and prove your point rather than logic. Good call.
> 
> I don't care about you or your friend. What your friend thinks about the best players in the league is irrelavent.
> 
> LeBron was playing injured against a superior team and lost the series. He did not have championship calibur teammates and while he may have under preformed to an extent, that's not justification for bumping him as the best player in the world. Again, I don't care about how big of a LeBron fan you are.
> 
> Keep the masked cursing up and you're going to get an infraction. It's against the rules, stop it. I'm letting you off the hook this time only because I've been playing into your stupid game and it would be hypocritical for me to give you an infraction.
> 
> I don't care what former players, current players, or the media says. People can be wrong, and anyone who says that Carmelo Anthony is a top five player is a damn fool. Honestly though I can't remember the last time I heard someone call 'Melo a top five player, so I think you're either living in the past or making things up to make yourself look smart.
> 
> Dwight Howard is a better defensive player than Anthony is an offensive one. He is also a better offensive player than 'Melo is a defensive one. He is more valuable to his team and has lead his team deeper into the playoffs and actually shows up for the postseason on a consistant basis. There is no comparison between these guys, Diwght is *clearly* the better and more valuable player. I mean hell, look at this thread, can you find one other person here that doesn't have Howard in the top five?
> 
> The thing is, you're trying to paint Howard as some one dimensional player while (ironically) pimping 'Melo as some all around all world talent. Carmelo is a talented scorer when he has the ball in his hands and he's allowed to ISO all game long. He doesn't pass, he doesn't defend, and he doesn't rebound at an exceptional level. He's a glorified (albiet talented) blackhole on offense that will *never* be the best player on a championship team.
> 
> Howard, on the other hand is far from one dimensional. He's the best defender in the league bar none. He's arguably the best rebounder (clearly top three) and the best shotblocker in the world. He scores at an impressive rate with better efficeincy than Anthony could ever dream of. Just because he doesn't have all of Anthony's cute moves doesn't change the fact that Dwight impacts the outcome of a basketball game in a way that 'Melo never will.
> 
> You're trying to tell me that all a top five player has to be able to do is score in a variety of ways. Sure. Are you telling me that Shaquille wasn't the best player in the league because he couldn't shoot from mid range? Was Duncan never the best player in the league because he can't hit threes with regularity. You're embarrassing yourself kid. There's more to basketball than shooting.
> 
> Dwight Howard walked into the worst situation in basketball when he was drafted as an 18 year old and led them to the playoffs within three years. Carmelo joined a talented Nuggets team and couldn't get out of the first round until his sixth year. Dwight has been out of the first round three straight times and has played exceptionally well in every postseason that he has been apart of, unlike 'Melo.
> 
> Comparing the Eastern conference of today and the one that AI played in during the early 2000s is not only stupid, it's ignorant. The talent level between the conferences has absolutely evened out to an extent since then and it takes a damn fool not to see otherwise.
> 
> Anthony has not been a good defender with the Knicks. You can't point to a single play and say that he's changed. That's ignorant. I could post a youtube video of Kevin Love blocking a ton of shots and would that make him better defensively than Hakeem was? Of course not.
> 
> But Kobe, LeBron, and Wade are good enough defensively and offensively to offset Dwight's huge advantage on defense. They're two way players. Carmelo is not. I'm not going to sit here and try to teach you basketball 101. Watch a game for once.
> 
> The fact that Howard's god given athletic gifts help him win basketball games should not be held against him. Yes, he's big. Yes, he's athletic. But that doesn't change the fact that he has channeled these gifts into becoming a *much* better player than Anthony has been at any point of his career.
> 
> You've done far greater argument then I can ever do? You respond greatly? You done far greater arguement? A little kid could have done a far greater argument? I don't even think I need to say anything, it's like beating a very, very, oblivious horse here.



The reason cause incase you miss some of my comments.



My friend loves kobe with a passion way more then anybody here. Sooner or later i'll tell him to signed up here so he can tell you. And he knows alot about the nba. Maybe more then you can ever know.



And? Yea i notice Lebron was playing injured but guess what genious? Kobe was playing with a bad leg, bad ankle, but most of all? He was playing with a broken right finger last year from the early of the season all the way to the nba finals but yet he play through it and did it greatly. He didn't make excuses. The Lebron injury stuff is no excuse for his quitting performance in game 5 vs the celtics. 



Yea but if i recall you have call me names insulting me and you was even cursing when i was just trying to have a good basketball conversation but i guess you can get away with it cause you're a mod? I guess that's ok for you. Alright i won't curse. I'll let you do the insults and cursing since you can get away with it. 


You can't remember? Again that prove you hardly watch much of nba basketball that is either in tnt, espn, abc, nba tv. 



Again you can't ignored the fact that Howard is a freaking huge muscle center that can leap very high. With that size and with that leap? If he can't be an awesome defender then he's freaking a terrible player. 



Howard in offense is very 1 dimensional. What else does he do besides dunking and running hook shots? <<<Shaq is just as 1 dimensional with the same thing. <<<But still with their huge size, they should be getting alot of points and easier to get it while it's far harder for Melo since he's not even close to Howard or Shaq prime size of post moves and huge dunks. 



Like i said in the other paragraphs, if Howard can't be an awesome defender then he's a terrible player. He should be in which he is for years. 



Shaq was easily the most dominate center in the nba when he was in his prime with the lakers but as the best player overall? Chill. Again being "the" best player, a player must do something else besides just dunking and hook shots. But i guess you and everybody else here are in the different world i guess in a nice way. 



Melo was drafted i believe at 19 after his rookie year in college. Melo had a talented team but not one i believe weren't great shooters. And as the number 3 draft pick with the same nuggets team that hasn't made to the playoffs since the mutumbo era? That's pretty impressive. 



Look at the record from the eastern conference to the western conference from up 2 down and tell me which records are better from up to down? <<<That's easy right there man. I'll give you a hint look at the pacers record as the 8th seed in the east and look the 8th seed griz in the west. It's been like this since 2001. 


Anthony has not been a good defender with The Knicks? I can't point to a single play? Dude honestly do you have nba league pass? Or if you live in nj or ny, do you have msg? If you don't have none of those 2 then how would u know if he's still not a good defender? If you have 1 of those 2 channels then damn you either are very old in which you need glasses or haven't pay much attention to the game. Melo does more then 1 single play since he's been with the knicks. I know cause i have the msg network channel. 



Wade, Lebron, Kobe are not close to Howard's defensive level . It doesn't matter if all 3 are better defenders then Melo. None are still not close to Howard defensive level i'm sorry. Lebron is not really a 1 on 1 defender. He mostly block shots from behind on fast breaks. 



Again, again, again how many times will i have to say that with Howard huge muscle size then can leap really high? If he can't be or in the better word, "isn't an awesome defender"? Then he's a terrible player. 



Shocker you don't think so.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



GrandKenyon6 said:


> Rose should win MVP.
> 
> [email protected] not being a top 5 player. Dwight Howard is easily the 2nd best player in the NBA behind LeBron.


Easily? lol yea ok whatever you say man.


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

What's the point in responding to or arguing with rayz789?


----------



## Dornado

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> What's the point in responding to or arguing with rayz789?


So that he can "respond greatly"?


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



caseyrh said:


> What's the point in responding to or arguing with rayz789?


What's the point of you even being here in this forum? You're the same guy that thinks David freaking Lee is a better player then Amare.


----------



## rayz789

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dornado said:


> So that he can "respond greatly"?


In which i have.


----------



## yodurk

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dre said:


> Best is what wins skill competitions, Value is what wins games


Well said, sir. Would make a good T-shirt too.


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

rose officially is the MVP


----------



## caseyrh

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

Nice! Dude's a stud.


----------



## Shaoxia

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

blah, it seems that back in the 80's and 90's, players had to be much better to become MVP or defensive player of the year? Rose has as many MVPs as Hakeem, and Howard has one more DPOY than Hakeem, what a joke.


----------



## DunkMaster

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



O2K said:


> rose officially is the MVP


source?


----------



## O2K

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



DunkMaster said:


> source?


http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=6468133


----------



## RR 823

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*

^^^

Not quite "official" in the strict sense of the word, but I'll take it. Congratulations to D-Rose.


----------



## roux

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11, Rose Wins MVP*

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nba/news/story?id=6468133

looks like its official.. or as close to official as it gets


----------



## roux

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11, Rose Wins MVP*

news conference scheduled for this afternoon


----------



## futuristxen

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11, Rose Wins MVP*

Does it usually take this long?


----------



## Basel

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11, Rose Wins MVP*

Yeah. They always announce it at the beginning of the 2nd round. Congrats to D-Rose.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11, Rose Wins MVP*

Congrats to Rose. I can't agree that he deserves it, but I agree that he had an outstanding season and deserves recognition. He is a breathe of fresh air in the NBA. Good kid who incredibly talented.


----------



## Dornado

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11, Rose Wins MVP*

I think he deserved it, I just think it was a year without a standout candidate for MVP.

As a Bulls fan I'm too worried about the playoffs and Rose's ankle to get too excited about this...


----------



## hobojoe

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



Dre said:


> People really going in on something Rose already sewed up :2ti:


...which is relevant why? Is this site deciding the NBA MVP? Every single thread on this site is a discussion of something none of have any control over, so whether the award is already "sewed up" or not doesn't matter. But as usual, you're just talking down to people like you have some valued, authoritative voice that is the be-all-end-all opinion.


----------



## Luke

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11, Rose Wins MVP*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Congrats to Rose. I can't agree that he deserves it, but I agree that he had an outstanding season and deserves recognition. He is a breathe of fresh air in the NBA. Good kid who incredibly talented.


Summed it up nicely.


----------



## roux

no complaints from me.. he deserved it


----------



## Game3525

Well, at least Allen Iverson and Steve Nash can breath a sigh of relief, the mantle of worst MVP selection of all-time now belongs to Derrick Rose.


----------



## futuristxen

Congrats to Rose. Youngest to ever win the award. Heavy is the crown though. There's a lot of expectations he has to live up to now that he didn't have before. I hope people are patient, because right now his hype is writing checks that his game can't cash.


----------



## BlackNRed

I am not impressed by your performance.


----------



## Pay Ton

futuristxen said:


> Congrats to Rose. Youngest to ever win the award. Heavy is the crown though. *There's a lot of expectations he has to live up to now that he didn't have before. I hope people are patient, because right now his hype is writing checks that his game can't cash.*


That's true.

I hope Rose can carry his team to multiple championships like Lebron can. 

I hope Rose can match Lebron's second round success from last year, when he torched the Celtics and had that amazing closeout game.

Heavy is the crown indeed.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Pay Ton said:


> That's true.
> 
> I hope Rose can carry his team to multiple championships like Lebron can.
> 
> I hope Rose can match Lebron's second round success from last year, when he torched the Celtics and had that amazing closeout game.
> 
> Heavy is the crown indeed.


This would be a valid point except LeBron went from media darling to most hated player in the league because of last season and he was considered a huge disappointment. So that kind of proves the point. If you don't meet expectations, the consequences can be pretty bad in the media. 

I don't think Rose falls into that category. Rose falls into the Nash/Iverson category where he could be the MVP and play for the 1st seed, and he and his team are still underdogs for some reason, so he'll get a pass if they lose.


----------



## Pay Ton

Sir Patchwork said:


> *This would be a valid point except LeBron went from media darling to most hated player in the league because of last season* and he was considered a huge disappointment. So that kind of proves the point. If you don't meet expectations, the consequences can be pretty bad in the media.
> 
> I don't think Rose falls into that category. Rose falls into the Nash/Iverson category where he could be the MVP and play for the 1st seed, and he and his team are still underdogs for some reason, so he'll get a pass if they lose.


Naaaah...I'm pretty sure that had to do with something else.

I think he did something during the offseason that resulted in that. Not sure though.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Pay Ton said:


> Naaaah...I'm pretty sure that had to do with something else.
> 
> I think he did something during the offseason that resulted in that. Not sure though.


He wasn't criticized before that? Come on.


----------



## Pay Ton

Sir Patchwork said:


> He wasn't criticized before that? Come on.


Criticism and nearly universal hatred are two different things.

Of course he was criticized before last offseason.

But going "from media darling to most hated player in the league" (your words) is a drastic shift, and it wasn't because of his playoff shortcomings.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Okay, but he went from media darling to at very least despised before signing with Miami. So the point remains.


----------



## futuristxen

Pay Ton said:


> That's true.
> 
> I hope Rose can carry his team to multiple championships like Lebron can.
> 
> I hope Rose can match Lebron's second round success from last year, when he torched the Celtics and had that amazing closeout game.
> 
> Heavy is the crown indeed.


Yeah and Lebron went from one of the most popular players in the game to the most hated athlete in America. America hates hype almost as much as it hates losers. And Lebron over the course of a year got both the overhyped AND loser tag. You don't think a backlash is coming on Rose? Maybe you're more optimistic about how sports media works in 2011 than I am.


----------



## futuristxen

Pay Ton said:


> Criticism and nearly universal hatred are two different things.
> 
> Of course he was criticized before last offseason.
> 
> But going "from media darling to most hated player in the league" (your words) is a drastic shift, and it wasn't because of his playoff shortcomings.


If Lebron had won a few rings, no one would/could have said a damn thing about what he did this summer.


----------



## JT

> You have no case for 'Melo being a top five player. He is a good one on one scorer. That's it. He does nothing else at an above average level. He's an average rebounder, an awful defender, a piss poor passer, and a black hole on offense. He's not a top five player. Hell, you keep pointing out his "clutchness" while ignoring the fact that he's been downright awful in 6 of his first 7 postseasons. That doesn't look like a "clutch" player to me. That sounds like a choker.


Melo isn't top five but as far as the rest of your post...kind of surprising. too many points to argue...but have you watched him play more than twice this season?


----------



## 77AJ

Congratulations Bulls fans, and D Rose fans from his prep and collegiate days as a basketball star. It's a well deserved MVP. The Bulls have an incredible franchise player. Good luck to him, and all you Bulls fans. Great year!


----------



## O2K

Rose has been critized all year. Remember the various internet blogs that say his PER, MUE, TSED, and all those other stats were average? I think it's the opposite. No matter what Rose does there will be many that will still say he doesn't deserve it. He can win a ring and finals MVP but people will still say "They won because Deng is KD Lite" or "Boozer is a top PF" or something to that vein. If anything these playoffs validate how great of a season Rose had to be able to carry an injury ridden team to 62 wins. There is a reason that Rose is being trapped more than any other player this postseason.


----------



## Pay Ton

O2K said:


> Rose has been critized all year. Remember the various internet blogs that say his PER, MUE, TSED, and all those other stats were average? I think it's the opposite. No matter what Rose does there will be many that will still say he doesn't deserve it. He can win a ring and finals MVP but people will still say *"They won because Deng is KD Lite" *or "Boozer is a top PF" or something to that vein. If anything these playoffs validate how great of a season Rose had to be able to carry an injury ridden team to 62 wins. There is a reason that Rose is being trapped more than any other player this postseason.


Let's not give too much credit to _that_ person.

I've never heard anybody else ever say that. Mainly because everybody (anybody) else knows more about basketball than the common "Are you god?" debaters.


----------



## Hyperion

O2K said:


> Rose has been critized all year. Remember the various internet blogs that say his PER, MUE, TSED, and all those other stats were average? I think it's the opposite. No matter what Rose does there will be many that will still say he doesn't deserve it. He can win a ring and finals MVP but people will still say "They won because Deng is KD Lite" or "Boozer is a top PF" or something to that vein. If anything these playoffs validate how great of a season Rose had to be able to carry an injury ridden team to 62 wins. There is a reason that Rose is being trapped more than any other player this postseason.


That is true. I was looking at his advanced LOL and BRB stats and they were indicating the the AFC and TTYL stats are completely off base when they say that Rose doesn't get trapped. The defenses are trying to trap him more than any player since Jordan in 1988, according to the L8R metric.


----------



## Pay Ton

Hyperion said:


> That is true. I was looking at his advanced LOL and BRB stats and they were indicating the the AFC and TTYL stats are completely off base when they say that Rose doesn't get trapped. The defenses are trying to trap him more than any player since Jordan in 1988, according to the L8R metric.


Okay...seriously now, what is AFC?

I Googled, but all I got was Asian Football Confederation and American Football Conference.

I just recently found out what IIRC was. Interesting one.


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## O2K

Hyperion said:


> That is true. I was looking at his advanced LOL and BRB stats and they were indicating the the AFC and TTYL stats are completely off base when they say that Rose doesn't get trapped. The defenses are trying to trap him more than any player since Jordan in 1988, according to the L8R metric.


However his OMG and G2G stats are right in par with the rest of the league. So atleast he has that going for him.


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## Dornado

Hyperion said:


> That is true. I was looking at his advanced LOL and BRB stats and they were indicating the the AFC and TTYL stats are completely off base when they say that Rose doesn't get trapped. The defenses are trying to trap him more than any player since Jordan in 1988, according to the L8R metric.


I see what you did there.


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## Hyperion

O2K said:


> However his OMG and G2G stats are right in par with the rest of the league. So atleast he has that going for him.


His ROFL is much lower than league average though. Though, not surprisingly, KG is last in ROFL. The IIRC stats rank Rose above Jordan, but not as high as Kobe. Shaq has a terrible IIRC. The same goes for Nash, Paul, and Deron 


AFC = AFK if that helps.


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## Pay Ton

Hyperion said:


> AFC = AFK if that helps.


Dude, WTF.

Stop being so cryptic. Tell me what it means...

...now.


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## BenDengGo

afk=away from keyboard
afc=away from computer


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## Pay Ton

BenDengGo said:


> afk=away from keyboard
> afc=away from computer


Really?

We need one for _that_?


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## Luke

JT said:


> Melo isn't top five but as far as the rest of your post...kind of surprising. too many points to argue...but have you watched him play more than twice this season?


I'm not going to come in here and pretend like I watched every Nuggets/Knicks game this year. But I caught enough so that I could tell that he's still the same player he's been for years. He's an extremely talented one on one scorer, one of the best in the leauge. But that's about it as far as doing anything at an elite level goes.

Too many points to argue? Really? 'Melo has always been a bad defender. People are coming into this thread trying to tell me that he's improved as a defender because he blocked that Danny Granger shot. He still sucks defensively, as I've said before - I could find a bunch of plays on youtube that portay Kevin Love to be dominate defensively. Pointing out particular plays is beyond dumb.

He's also never been a good passer. Ever. And it's not like he doesn't have the ball in his hands often enough like Kevin Durant. He's just not a talented or willing passer. There's no debate.

Oh, and before you try and say "look at his rebounding numbers and tell me that he's not a good rebounder!!! They're above average!!!" keep in mind that he plays in an extremely fast paced offense without a center to gobble up boards. The only other talented player on that frontcourt is Amar'e, and he doesn't crash the boards either. At a certain point he's going to get his by virtue of simply being in the game. Doesn't mean that he's a good rebounder, though.

Carmelo's postseason troubles have been well documented. I'm not going to debate something that should be considered common sense at this point. Keep in mind that these posts came before his 42/17 game against the Celtics.


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## atz

*Re: MVP Discussion 10-11*



mvP to the Wee said:


> How about we stop looking at the numbers and watch the actual games? Rose and Howard are the two players who impact their teams the most. I give Rose the nod because of team record. Rose is like Kobe, where the numbers don't exactly tell the impact they have. Rose and Kobe both create their own shots to create offense while guys like Westbrook, Wade, LBJ rely on drawing fouls, which isn't as effective in end of game situations. I'm paraphrasing what *Coldfish*, a poster on another Bulls forum, said and I fully agree with what he says, though I do think Wade can create his own shot better than he is being credited:
> 
> *- Wade, Lebron, Westbrook, etc. all have games suited for the first 3.5 quarters of a regular season game
> - Kobe and Rose have games suited for the last half of the 4th and the playoffs, which is the part that really matters. *
> 
> Another point I'd like to make is that the Bulls are built for defense so the Bulls might win games because of defense, but they also start a bunch of defensive players so a lot of the offensive burden is on Rose and hence the high shot total. Think about it, Rose has started every game this season with Bogans(not known for offense) and Deng(he's got a nice offensive game, but you can't expect him to carry a team on that side of the court, he's more reliable on the other end). The other options Boozer(the only other offensive threat in the starting lineup) and Noah(though he can score here and there, he definitely shouldn't be relied upon) have missed a significant amount of games and have been replaced with defensive guys: Gibson(defensive player, not much of an offensive game) and Thomas(mid range jumper is about the only offense he has). So if you guys complain about the number of shots Rose takes, tell me who you would rather see take those shots?


Bump


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## Dornado

Well, its a regular season award, that's for sure.


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