# Sebastian Telfair: The best coming out of the draft in 04



## Dakota (Aug 18, 2002)

Honestly, I think this kid will be the best to come out of the draft this year. He has so much potential that has yet to be unleashed. I mean, he was 5 steps ahead of every player he played against in high school. He was a phenom in high school. The kid started to get media attention when he was a freshman. By the time he was a sophmore he was getting magazine articles and newspaper reads. Junior year comes and he is getting put in the same sentence as Lebron James. Yes, this is true. I have the SLAM magazine with both of them on the cover. So it was likely as anything that when Telfair was a senior that he would be a high school sensation. All these other high school hacks are taking away from his potential and marketing ability. Dwight Howard?? Good, but Nooo. Shaun Livingston?? Great player, but still has some years to go. 

I believe that Sebastian will start right away for the team that he is drafted by. There is no reason not to. This kid will win ROY. He will lead rookies in at least 2-3 categories. He will get nominations for the All-Star Game. Don't doubt this kid. He is better than everything believes. Jay Bilas?? You hear that. I usually agree with Jay Bilas, but if he says that Sebastian will struggle, then I am going to have to disagree with that statement. 


Anyway, what does everyone else think about this topic. Will he be the best rookie next year?? Will he end up being the best of the class of 04?? Discuss....


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Heard of Ben Gordon, Devin Harris???


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

I take ben gordon over telfair any day of the week

telfair hasnt proven a thing and is a risky pick
could have a big payoff could turn into a bust

let gets picked outside the lottery this year no earlier than 15 probably should be in the late teens to mid 20s


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Earl Boykins might post up on Telfair.

Telfair looks at least 1-2 inches shorter than Jameer Nelson who is only about 5'10 himself.


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## Dakota (Aug 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by *Hbwoy*!
> Heard of Ben Gordon, Devin Harris???


Yes I have. Come on. Ben Gordon and Harris are good, but they don't have as much potential as Telfair. Telfair doesn't need to score to be a great player on the court. Gordon does. Harris isn't extremely explosive as either Gordon or Telfair, so that is his disadvantage towards the two of them. Harris is more of a shooter then anything.


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## Dakota (Aug 18, 2002)

> Telfair looks at least 1-2 inches shorter than Jameer Nelson who is only about 5'10 himself.


Telfair is 5'11"



> Earl Boykins might post up on Telfair.


I think that is a bit of an exaggeration right there.


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## nbanoitall (May 21, 2004)

nelson offically measured in at 5'8 1/2


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## da Big Ticket (Jan 8, 2003)

Telfair is making a huge mistake by coming out


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## sb telfair (May 12, 2004)

Telfair IS going to be the best coming out of this draft. He is the kind a guy that makes the guys around him better. He passes first, and that is big in the NBA for a PG. His shooting was weak at times, but still, he is a good shooter. Combine that with good ballhandling, excellent speed, and a quick first step, he is the best guy coming out of the draft. Just put on some muscle, and you got the best guy coming out of this draft.


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## Dakota (Aug 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by *sb telfair*!
> Telfair IS going to be the best coming out of this draft. He is the kind a guy that makes the guys around him better. He passes first, and that is big in the NBA for a PG. His shooting was weak at times, but still, he is a good shooter. Combine that with good ballhandling, excellent speed, and a quick first step, he is the best guy coming out of the draft. Just put on some muscle, and you got the best guy coming out of this draft.


Finally!! Someone agrees with me. :laugh: Given, you are just a bit biased on this topic, but I'll take it anyway. 


Listen people. Shooting is something that can come easy with practice. Sebastian is going to be playing basketball every single day. That is more practice then he could have ever imagined in his Brooklyn high school. Give him 3 years, and his shot will be as consistent as Chauncey Billups, or a Steve Nash. Shooting is one of the easiest things to work on. The things that are hard to teach are the things that come easiest to Telfair. Court Vision. You can't teach that. Telfair has *Jesse Palmer voice * unbelievable *voice* court vision. Knowledge. Passing Ability. Endurance. Agility. These are also things that Telfair has in his arsenal right now. Give him this year to wow you, because not enough of you have seen him yet.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C-MO 22 LD</b>!
> 
> 
> Telfair is 5'11"


Umm yeah did you measure him?

He is definately not taller than Nelson. If you see them next to each other he is definately smaller.

Last I heard on sports radio was that Telfair is probably just 5'8 in shoes. Looks pretty accurate to me if Nelson is 5'8 1/2 without shoes.

Telfair is a midget.

Jerry West likes Al Jefferson? Don't pick him.

Jerry West also thought Rodney White was the best player, Drew Gooden was the best player in his opinion, he drafted Troy Bell and Jones this season. LOL


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## sb telfair (May 12, 2004)

> Finally!! Someone agrees with me. Given, you are just a bit biased on this topic, but I'll take it anyway.
> 
> 
> Listen people. Shooting is something that can come easy with practice. Sebastian is going to be playing basketball every single day. That is more practice then he could have ever imagined in his Brooklyn high school. Give him 3 years, and his shot will be as consistent as Chauncey Billups, or a Steve Nash. Shooting is one of the easiest things to work on. The things that are hard to teach are the things that come easiest to Telfair. Court Vision. You can't teach that. Telfair has *Jesse Palmer voice * unbelievable *voice* court vision. Knowledge. Passing Ability. Endurance. Agility. These are also things that Telfair has in his arsenal right now. Give him this year to wow you, because not enough of you have seen him yet.


YayEa! Dis is exactly what telfair is. I aint biased he just is the best. How can you guys not agree with us. 

oh yea I will give you 5 star bro.


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## Dakota (Aug 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by *BigAmare*!
> He is definately not taller than Nelson. If you see them next to each other he is definately smaller.
> 
> Last I heard on sports radio was that Telfair is probably just 5'8 in shoes. Looks pretty accurate to me if Nelson is 5'8 1/2 without shoes.


I'll believe it when I see the actual measurements. 



> Jerry West likes Al Jefferson? Don't pick him
> 
> Jerry West also thought Rodney White was the best player, Drew Gooden was the best player in his opinion, he drafted Troy Bell and Jones this season. LOL


Lets see, West also picked Bryant some 6 years ago. Turns out Bryant is one of the best in the league right now. He signed Shaquille O'Neal. He made the Lakers a dynasty. He also turned around the lowly Grizzlies into a title contender. 

Don't judge Troy Bell or Dahntay Jones yet, because they have not had the oppurtunity like other rookies had. Marquise Daniels and Josh Howard are fortunate enough to play on a team that has little bench depth.


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## Jmonty580 (Jun 20, 2003)

Okafur, Howard, and Deng will easily be the best coming out of the draft. Then Gordon will be the best pg. Im not even sure if Telefair will be better than Shaun Livingston who is supposed to be such a great passer at 6'7. He also has to beat out Devin Harris and Jameer Nelson. HOnestly I wouldnt be surprised if Chris Duhon has a better rookie season than Telefair. I think Telefair is good, but he could really use at least one or two yars in college. Telefair lives in the slums though so he has to go where the money is, so thats why he's in the draft, I think that if money wasnt a problem he would go to college for at least one year.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Telfair could be 4 foot 2...he'd still be the best player to come out of this draft. I hope Cleveland drafts him at 10. He won't start for them, but he'll really be great with that second unit with Dajuan Wagner and Diop.

I think mentality is everything when you're looking at who can become great. And Telfair has it. He won't fail.

Jay Bilas is REALLLY wrong about this kid.

And I think Telfair's lack of a shot is overblown. He's not Jason Kidd or TJ Ford. He's got an inconsistent shot. But it's not that that he has no shot.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

What kind of options are those? You put guys like Al Jefferson, but no Luol Deng? I've never seen Telfair play, so I'll hold back my judgments on him, but from what I've read, he should've attended college for at least a year.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

I think the best player out of this draft, eventually, will be between Telfair, Deng and Howard.

Deng drew comparisons to LeBron James last offseason, as finishing high schoolers. James went to the NBA, Deng could have but choose college. I don't think Deng is as talented as James, but he's got rare ability.

Telfair is one of the best passers ever to come into the NBA and has court awareness that is simply unteachable. As far as his individual scoring skills, he's been playing (and beating) NBA players for a couple of years now. That means all the way back to his freshman/sophomore year in high school he was holding his own with NBA players. That's incredible.

And Howard is the big man with the most upside in the draft. He has the ability to be a real force inside.


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## IAMGREAT (May 22, 2003)

Jay Bilas is very stupid. He thinks JR Smith is good. He's terrible. People don't understand how good Sebastian really is. In that McDonald's game he played great. Didn't take a single jumpshot, but ran the team very well and found the open man consistently en route to eleven assists and played good defense to the point where Livingston refused to try anymore. In the Hoops Summit game he absolutely controlled the tempo and dominated from beginning to end, with a very sore hamstring I might add. He had many steals and deflections and played excellent defense on those foreign guards and had a lot of great assists in that game too. The kid makes the right play most of the time and is extremely quick and can create. I suppose that his jumper is suspect, but from what I've seen in many of the high school games he has shot the ball very well. I know that most people are saying that he can't shoot because of that horrible shooting performance he had his 3rd year at ABCD. 

Telfair is definatley taller than Jameer. The measurements show it as well as photos from their workouts. Telfair hasn't proven anything except that he's a winner. Winning 3 city titles in NY is a hard thing that I'm not sure had ever been done before.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

I think the best players will be Ben Gordon and Andre Iguodala. The best long term prospects would be Shaun Livingston, Marty Vicious and Josh Smith.

I think that Okafor, Howard, Deng will all be busts. Telfair will be the 4th best PG behind Gordon, Harris and Nelson. (And Livingston if you consider him one).

And Telfair is definately not taller than Jameer Nelson if you take the Clippers workouts picture as a basis he is definately an inch or 2 shorter.

Yesterday or so the NBA beatwriter of Bloomberg news questioned his height and said he looked to him like 5'8.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> As far as his individual scoring skills, he's been playing (and beating) NBA players for a couple of years now.


Which NBA players were those?


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>sb telfair</b>!
> Telfair IS going to be the best coming out of this draft. He is the kind a guy that makes the guys around him better. He passes first, and that is big in the NBA for a PG. His shooting was weak at times, but still, he is a good shooter. Combine that with good ballhandling, excellent speed, and a quick first step, he is the best guy coming out of the draft. Just put on some muscle, and you got the best guy coming out of this draft.


Telfair is an awful shooter. Nelson does all of these things, and strokes the rock well.

If Gordon were 2 inches taller it would be Dwade the second coming.

Right now I am leaning toward Tiago Splitter being the best when it's all said in done. That kid looks really good.

Deng is good but he really has to tighten up his ball handling, or I would put him as the best.

I haven't seen Livingston a lot so I don't know what seperates him from Vujacic.

Two players whom I think will make whoever gets them really pleased are 
Monya ( if he gets playing time and a good coach)

and 

Gomes if he comes out.


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C-MO 22 LD</b>!
> He was a phenom in high school. The kid started to get media attention when he was a freshman. By the time he was a sophmore he was getting magazine articles and newspaper reads. Junior year comes and he is getting put in the same sentence as Lebron James.


Two reasons:
1. He's from New York City.
2. He's Starbury's cousin.

Telfair, right now, is TJ Ford w/out college experience. Nothing more. I doubt he'll start next season, regardless of which team picks him.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: Sebastian Telfair: The best coming out of the draft in 04*



> Originally posted by <b>bender</b>!
> 
> Two reasons:
> 1. He's from New York City.
> ...


I would say he is a better passer than TJ Ford is right now, and he has possibly better game management skills.

The only similarities between the two of them that I see is that both have had their size and shooting called into question. And both will prove their doubters wrong.

TJ's inability to shoot really hurt the Bucks this year...


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## BrYaNBaIlEy06 (Jul 15, 2003)

Al Jefferson


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jtx</b>!
> 
> 
> Which NBA players were those?


Stephon Marbury, his cousin, is the only one I know for sure. Reports don't tend to give names, and I'd assume friends of Marbury's.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Stephon Marbury, his cousin, is the only one I know for sure. Reports don't tend to give names, and I'd assume friends of Marbury's.


More like Zach Marbury and Jamel Thomas (cousin of Marbury or something).


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> 
> 
> More like Zach Marbury and Jamel Thomas (cousin of Marbury or something).


Reports definitely had Telfair beating Stephon Marbury in a game of one-on-one. Beyond that, I wouldn't know which players...but Zach Marbury and Jamel Thomas aren't in the NBA, so it was players other than them.


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## da Big Ticket (Jan 8, 2003)

IAMGREAT-you think JR Smith is terrible?? This guy is athletic and shoots like Peja. He will be good and I gaurentee that Telfair will not be the best in this draft.


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## sonny22 (Dec 28, 2003)

Al Jeffereson. Also Luol Deng is the most overrated player in years draft. What has he done thats so great?


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## Kezersoze (Mar 3, 2004)

SEBASTIAN TELFAIR THE GREATEST PG IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD?  LOL that should be the name of this thread. Iam going to be different and pick Shaun Livingston to be a better PG than Telfair. Iam not picking him cause I have seen alot of tape on him just to say something different and cause debate. 



some people on this thread
:allhail:




:joke:


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## Kezersoze (Mar 3, 2004)

but seriously i think Telfair will eventually be a good maybe excellent PG but I seriously doubt he is rookie of the year over Gordon/Harris/Okafor he just doesn't have the complete game those guys have RIGHT NOW. Rookie of Year is going to be Gordon, Harris or Okafor(if Healthy) the only real complete players in the draft. as for J.R Smith if he really was Kerr mixed with Carter I would think he would be dominating at these work outs making this weak college class look silly but hey I guess he just saving his best performance for the Nets.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>C-MO 22 LD</b>!
> He has so much potential that has yet to be unleashed. I mean, he was 5 steps ahead of every player he played against in high school. He was a phenom in high school.


I think this is largely true for every single player in the NBA.



> The kid started to get media attention when he was a freshman. By the time he was a sophmore he was getting magazine articles and newspaper reads. Junior year comes and he is getting put in the same sentence as Lebron James. Yes, this is true. I have the SLAM magazine with both of them on the cover.


...because he is Stephon Marbury's cousin.



> All these other high school hacks are taking away from his potential and marketing ability.


How are other players taking away from Telfair's potential? How are they hurting his marketing ability, which is tops when it comes to this draft (thanks to his catchy name, multi-year hype and relation to Marbury).



> Dwight Howard?? Good, but Nooo.



Why do you say this?



> I believe that Sebastian will start right away for the team that he is drafted by.


I believe he'll come off the bench.



> This kid will win ROY. He will lead rookies in at least 2-3 categories. He will get nominations for the All-Star Game.


Holy nutsac. I've just bookmarked this thread.



> Don't doubt this kid. He is better than everything believes. Jay Bilas?? You hear that. I usually agree with Jay Bilas, but if he says that Sebastian will struggle, then I am going to have to disagree with that statement.


A 5'10" PG coming straight out of high school, who doesn't have tremendous athleticism relative to other NBA points and who has a worse shot than TJ Ford kind of gives me a few red flags to consider. Bilas is not always right, but I think he nailed this one.



> Anyway, what does everyone else think about this topic. Will he be the best rookie next year?? Will he end up being the best of the class of 04?? Discuss....


I'm not trying to be rude, but I think either Telfair or Jameer Nelson will be the bust of the draft.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>C-MO 22 LD</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes I have. Come on. Ben Gordon and Harris are good, but they don't have as much potential as Telfair.


Why not?



> Harris isn't extremely explosive as either Gordon or Telfair, so that is his disadvantage towards the two of them. Harris is more of a shooter then anything.


Harris might be the most explosive out of all of them, and that's saying something, as Gordon is very explosive himself. I'd bet good money that Harris has one of the highest verticals at the Chicago combine.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>C-MO 22 LD</b>!
> 
> 
> Listen people. Shooting is something that can come easy with practice.


Tell that to Jason Kidd.



> Give him 3 years, and his shot will be as consistent as Chauncey Billups, or a Steve Nash. Shooting is one of the easiest things to work on.


If this is the case, then why isn't everyone shooting like Larry Bird these days? Provided all the practice time to work on shooting, why is the league FG% so low?


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Sebastian Telfair: The best coming out of the draft in 04*



> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> I would say he is a better passer than TJ Ford is right now, and he has possibly better game management skills.


futuristxen,

Telfair has played against high school kids. Ford went to the Final Four with Texas and was the NPOY -- as a sophomore. And he still wasn't even on the All-Rookie 1st team this year.



> TJ's inability to shoot really hurt the Bucks this year...


Actually, it did. I'm sure Bucks fans are thanking their lucky stars they had Damon Jones on the roster.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Reports definitely had Telfair beating Stephon Marbury in a game of one-on-one.


I once saw Billy Thomas beat Paul Pierce in a game of one-on-one after an open practice a few years ago at Kansas. Thomas plays for the Greenville Groove.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Sebastian Telfair: The best coming out of the draft in 04*



> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> 
> 
> futuristxen,
> ...


Ford was the reason that the Bucks were able to get up to the 4th seed, and his getting injured was the reason they fell so fast. I think Buck fans were pretty happy with TJ Ford. His shooting didn't hurt the Bucks in any of the games I watched.

And except for the occasional playoff series, JKidd's poor shooting is not much of a hinderance to the Nets as the rest of his skills override the shooting woes.

Why does Telfair need to go to college? Just so we can see him for a few years and confirm, that "yes" he was as good a player as people said he was.

Didn't Telfair shoot 50 percent from the field in high school? When he's on he can be a big time scorer.

I think the bad shooting hype started because some people saw him on an off night.

I would not be suprised if we don't see Telfair's stock start to pick back up as we get closer to the draft and buyer's remorse starts to wear off.

I think he'll go at 10 to Cleveland.


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> Reports definitely had Telfair beating Stephon Marbury in a game of one-on-one.


That reminds me of Taj McDavid. Anyone remembers this guy? He declared out of high school in 1996 and went undrafted. Before he made the decision to enter, he played Kevin Garnett one-on-one and beat him. Right now he's working at the local gas station or something.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Telfair shot 53 percent from the field and 45 percent from 3 last year.

Not bad for a kid who can't shoot.

Conversly, Livingston, everyone's favorite high school point guard....only shot 33 percent from 3 last year.

Yet it is Telfair who is the guy who can't shoot.

Sounds like backlash to me. Expect Linvingston's stock to drop and Telfair's to rise as decision making time nears.


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## Pure Scorer (Jul 20, 2002)

I question how many of Telfair's games some of you have watched. Saying that he will be the roy next year is just insane. Saying that he doesn't have a very good chance of being the best player out of the draft is even more insane. He has everything needed to be the perfect pg. He is super quick, and saying that he doesn't have the athleticism to hang with NBA point guards is nonsense. His shot is not bad. In fact, in my opinion, he has one of the best shots in the draft. Look at his form. It is very good, the only problem is that he tends to drift away from it at times, especially when he is having a bad shooting night. That will go away with practice, so i can't see him being hindered by it past his first season in the league. As of now, i don't think he is physically ready to be a star of any sort for his first year, but if he puts on some muscle he'll be fine. I expect him to be starting by his second year in the league (depending on what team he goes to), and averaging somewhere around 13-14 ppg, 7 apg, 3 rpg, 1.5 spg... however he could do a lot better if he adapts to the league fully.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pure Scorer</b>!
> I question how many of Telfair's games some of you have watched. Saying that he will be the roy next year is just insane. Saying that he doesn't have a very good chance of being the best player out of the draft is even more insane. He has everything needed to be the perfect pg. He is super quick, and saying that he doesn't have the athleticism to hang with NBA point guards is nonsense. His shot is not bad. In fact, in my opinion, he has one of the best shots in the draft. Look at his form. It is very good, the only problem is that he tends to drift away from it at times, especially when he is having a bad shooting night. That will go away with practice, so i can't see him being hindered by it past his first season in the league. As of now, i don't think he is physically ready to be a star of any sort for his first year, but if he puts on some muscle he'll be fine. I expect him to be starting by his second year in the league (depending on what team he goes to), and averaging somewhere around 13-14 ppg, 7 apg, 3 rpg, 1.5 spg... however he could do a lot better if he adapts to the league fully.


This seems in touch with reality.

I think the thread title of this is right though. I don't think he'll win Rookie of the Year, but I think time will show him to be the best player from this draft. He has that special "it" that great players have.

I think the Cavs might just draft him and let him learn behind Mcinnis and let him run the second unit(they are desperate for a backup point guard....just look at their signings at the end of the year...Telfair could really help them next year off the bench).


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

I'm convinced that Okafor will be the best, because of his intelligence, coachability and work ethic.

But Telfair and Jefferson won't be far behind. Unlike Okafor, who analyzes the game, Telfair is a natural. He needs a coach who will trust his instincts and just let him play.


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> I'm convinced that Okafor will be the best, because of his intelligence, coachability and work ethic.


Okafor is arguably the best player in Draft _right now_, and he'll probably have more impact on his team than anybody next year, but there's no way will be the best of this Draft when all is said and done. Potential-wise he's the 5th or 6th best in the Draft.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bender</b>!
> 
> Okafor is arguably the best player in Draft _right now_, and he'll probably have more impact on his team than anybody next year, but there's no way will be the best of this Draft when all is said and done. Potential-wise he's the 5th or 6th best in the Draft.


Maybe not likely, but I wouldnt say there is *no way* he could be the best out of the draft. He draws comparisons to Alonzo Mourning and if he were able to reach that level, he could very well be the best player out of this draft.


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## bdw0617 (Apr 4, 2003)

Telifar will be the best HS prospect to come out this year in my mind, and this coming from somone who honeslty isn't very crazy about him.

However, I wouldn't let him pass me up.

Let's look at all of the past busts and breakout hs player.

You would put Garnett, Bryant, Amare, McGrady, O'Neal, LeBron James, maybe Rashard Lewis and Al Harrington in the breakout player list.

You would put Kwame brown, Tyson Chandler, Diop, and probably a Kendrick Perkins in the second group of busts.

What do the first group of players have in common? 

THEY ALL LOVE TO PLAY THE GAME. PERIOD.

Do you see the passion that Bryant, Garnett, Amare and LeBron have for the game of basketball? Yes they are great now, and they all came in the league with flaws, but they worked their *** off to hone their skills and now they are stars, even with the big lights, money and fame on them on a constant basis.

If Kobe Bryant told you he shot 2,000 jump shots a day, and 1,000 free thows, I doubt anyone would not believe him. He has that type of work etheic.

Lets look at the second group. What do they all have in common.

First, make no mistake, I think all of them exetl maybe Perkins are extremely talented, espically Kwame, it's a shame how much talent he has.

However, they don't have...It. That's the best way I could put it. It' s like if it wern't for the money, they wouldnt' be in the league. You see them on the court, looking like they really don't care about the games outcome, kwame getting fustrated because only MJ, the best player in the WORLD is giving him advice, even if it is a little harsh. EC comes in overweight year after year, even with his contract year coming up, and in my opinion, hasn't imporved too much since he came in the league. Chandler, I think he is the closest on the verge of breaking out, only if he can stay injury free. Even he got into it with his coach last year for, of all things... sagging? You have to be kidding me? For 3 mil a year I would wear a freaking dress if I had to. Him being on a veteran team would do him wonders, but I think he has the same laid back attidute. He hasn't put on a pound since coming in the league. Perkins is well...Perkins. 

Anyway, if I have gathered anything from Telifair, he loves to play the game. No one can dispute that.

Livingston knows he is going to be in the draft, being in the NBA, and is going to visit his GF instead of working with a personal trainer? You have to be freaking kidding me.

JR smith wouldn't have drempt of comin in the league if he werne't such a hot topic right now.

Howard seems to have a good solid work ethic. I like him.

Al Jefferson seems to be the sleeper. No one realizes how bad of shape he was in a year ago. He has got on the ball big time.

Anyway, that' s my opinion, and I wouldn't touch Shawn livingston with a 6 foot stick.


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## bender (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> Maybe not likely, but I wouldnt say there is *no way* he could be the best out of the draft.


Ok. 



> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> He draws comparisons to Alonzo Mourning and if he were able to reach that level, he could very well be the best player out of this draft.


These Mourning-comparisons are way off. It's like comparing this Ha Seung-Jin guy to Yao Ming.


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## Dakota (Aug 18, 2002)

Wow, this thread blew up! 



> ...because he is Stephon Marbury's cousin.


Yeah, that's the only reason. :uhoh: Right. 



> How are other players taking away from Telfair's potential? How are they hurting his marketing ability, which is tops when it comes to this draft (thanks to his catchy name, multi-year hype and relation to Marbury)


Okay, the potential comment was a bit wrong, but the other high school players are taking away from his full marketing ability. Think about it. Dwight Howard. Shaun Livingston. Robert Swift. Al Jefferson. J.R. Smith. Josh Smith. Dorell Wright. LaMarcus Aldridge. Come on!!! Half these kids aren't even ready to play at this kind of level yet. They lack the maturity, which Sebastian has. ( He has been getting this kind of attention for years) They lack the knowledge on the court. Sebastian has played with many pro players in summer leagues and pick-up, so he gained his knowledge throughout the last couple of years. Not to mention that his freaking cousin is Stephon Marbury. These players, who aren't ready for the NBA yet, are taking good marketing time away from Telfair, when Telfair could be making boatloads right now. Think if he was the only high-schooler coming into the draft right now. Everyone would be head over heels for him. 



> Telfair has played against high school kids. Ford went to the Final Four with Texas and was the NPOY -- as a sophomore. And he still wasn't even on the All-Rookie 1st team this year.


Yeah, look at the draft class of this year!!!! Ford would have certainly made it, if guys like James, Anthony, Wade, Bosh, and Hinrich weren't so freaking good. 



> I believe he'll come off the bench.


Hmmm, stalemate. 



> Why do you say this?


He reminds me of Kwame Brown with less enthusiam. 



> Holy nutsac. I've just bookmarked this thread.


Good! 



> A 5'10" PG coming straight out of high school, who doesn't have tremendous athleticism relative to other NBA points and who has a worse shot than TJ Ford kind of gives me a few red flags to consider. Bilas is not always right, but I think he nailed this one.


Whattt??? Does not have tremendous athleticism compared to other NBA point guards?? I think not. How athletic is he compared to Eric Snow?? The starting point guard for the Hawks?? Chauncey Billups?? Jamaal Tinsley?? Gary Payton for christs sake?? Sam Cassell?? Mike Bibby?? This all depends on how you rate athleticism though. Sebastian Telfair has ubelievable quickness, agility, durability, and explosiveness. Those attributes all make for great athleticism. 

And for the shot comment comparing him to T.J Ford. Check this post. 



> Telfair shot 53 percent from the field and 45 percent from 3 last year.
> 
> Not bad for a kid who can't shoot.
> 
> Conversly, Livingston, everyone's favorite high school point guard....only shot 33 percent from 3 last year.


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## alex (Jan 7, 2003)

"nelson offically measured in at 5'8 1/2" nbanoitall

Jameer measured in at 5'11" without shoes at the 2003 Chicago Pre-Draft camp, 6'0" with them on. The 5'8" information is I believe incorrect. 



And I think C-MO 22 LD said that Devin Harris isn't very explosive. WATCH Wisconsin Badger games and THEN tell me that. Verses Kentucky in the Regional Semis he crossed over a Wildcat, BLEW by two others, and dunked it one handed, with his head about a foot below the rim. On the following possesion, he did the exact same thing, in a close game.

This year he caught an alley-oop and had to duck so his head wouldn't hit the rim. In other words, Devin was able to get higher then the rim on his JUMP (he didn't grab the rim and swing himself up). If that isn't explosion and athleticism, then I don't know what is.


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## Dakota (Aug 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by *alex*!
> And I think C-MO 22 LD said that Devin Harris isn't very explosive. WATCH Wisconsin Badger games and THEN tell me that. Verse Kentucky in the Regional Semis he crossed over a Wildcat, BLEW by two others, and dunked it one handed, with his head about a foot below the rim. On the following possesion, he did the exact same thing, in a close game.


Get this right people. I didn't say that the kid wasn't explosive. I said the kid wasn't as explosive as *either* Gordon and Telfair. That's my opinion. He isn't as explosive as Telfair. He isn't as explosive as Gordon. I'm not saying that he isn't explosive. I'm sure he is.


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## IAMGREAT (May 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>da Big Ticket</b>!
> IAMGREAT-you think JR Smith is terrible?? This guy is athletic and shoots like Peja. He will be good and I gaurentee that Telfair will not be the best in this draft.


JR Smith is not good. He can't play basketall. His concept of the game is simple and so is his play. He just wants to dunk and shoot threes. He can hardly dribble, and his slow speed restricts him from getting his shot off. Even if he were to make a decent dribble move, he can't shoot off the dribble very well. It's very shaky. He's not that good a defender either. His passing is likewise. So what makes him good?

Telfiar may not be the best but he'll be one of the best, and whoever gets the title of "best" will have to put on an oustanding performance.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> 
> I once saw Billy Thomas beat Paul Pierce in a game of one-on-one after an open practice a few years ago at Kansas. Thomas plays for the Greenville Groove.


That's well and good, but you seem to be conveniently overlooking the fact that many descriptions of Telfair have him having played and beaten or held his own against multiple NBA players over the course of several years. 

At ages 16-18, that's incredible.

That's also a far different thing from, "Well, I heard/saw this one fellow beat that other guy *once* in some random game."


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

I can't believe there is no Euro Hype in this thread. Guys I am serious when I say that Tiago Splitter will be the best player to come out of this draft when it is all said and done.


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## RoseCity (Sep 27, 2002)

*Earth to Schmuk*



> Originally posted by <b>nbanoitall</b>!
> nelson offically measured in at 5'8 1/2


Dude... Look at the measurments and please stop spreading CRAP about prospects when you don't have a clue: http://collegebasketballnews.theinsiders.com/2/115362.html

Nelson IS NOT UNDER SIX FOOT! Don't say that no shoes crap, they play in shoes, in case you didn't notice. 

Not only is he six foot in shoes but his wingspan is that of a 6-2 player AND he is a very solid 195, probably bigger than that now since those measurements are from last years Chicago camp.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>bender</b>!
> These Mourning-comparisons are way off. It's like comparing this Ha Seung-Jin guy to Yao Ming.


How are they way off? They are both around the same height and have similiar skill sets. And both their college numbers their last year were nearly identical with Emeka's being slightly slightly higher I believe.


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> 
> 
> Umm yeah did you measure him?
> ...


Oh what now? The Suns GM owns Jerry West? If I were to start an organization with a person, I'd choose Jerry West.


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## BEEZ (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> I think the best players will be Ben Gordon and Andre Iguodala. The best long term prospects would be Shaun Livingston, Marty Vicious and Josh Smith.
> 
> I think that Okafor, Howard, Deng will all be busts. Telfair will be the 4th best PG behind Gordon, Harris and Nelson. (And Livingston if you consider him one).
> ...



You do realize those pictures neither were standing exactly side by side and Telfair in the other pic is crouched and the pther pic hes behind him. I mean its very clear and if you are using those pics to back your argument well what can I say


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## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

Sebastian Telfair is ok, he won't be spectacular in the NBA, the best pick coming out of this draft is Roko-Leni Ukic. You have so many players in the lottery that are high-schoolers and foreigners that you are waiting to devlop while this kid is probably has a chance for ROY. He plays a lot like Tony Parker only he is taller. You heard it first right here. Roko-Leni Ukic for ROY.:grinning:


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## AZwildcats4 (Feb 9, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>JNice</b>!
> 
> 
> How are they way off? They are both around the same height and have similiar skill sets. And both their college numbers their last year were nearly identical with Emeka's being slightly slightly higher I believe.


Exactly, His game is very similar to Alonzo's when he came out of college. All this crap about his limited offensive game has been completely overblown. He is a decent scorer, probably better than Alonzo at the same age. It seems to me that because of the straight to the pro's kids people have it in their heads that college players can't get any better. Hakeem, David Robinson, and Alonzo all had questionable offensive skills when they were rookies, but they sure turned out ok.


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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

Jerry West didn't pick Kobe, Kobe demanded to play for the Lakers and was traded from Charlotte to the Lakers. And signing Shaq when he was the top guy in the league isn't exactly brilliant - it's just common sense.

As for Telfair: He's not seasoned. In 3 or 4 years he might be great, but right now there's nothing that shows he is able to compete on the NBA level. Watching the McDonalds game I thought he looked awful - he just dribbled at the top of the key and passed to players that were wide open because of no defensive intensity. I'd be scared to take a 5'11 guy that can't shoot, that is very weak, and is unproven. NBA Execs seem to agree:



> "Meanwhile, several team executives claim Sebastian Telfair is slip-sliding out of his projected lottery slot and is free falling toward the bottom of the first round, whereas 6-7 Shaun Livingston, another high schooler, and Wisconsin's Devin Harris have moved up into the top six-to-eight. I don't believe Telfair's tumble is nearly that bad. No, Lincoln's 5-11 luxury item hasn't mesmerized anyone during workouts with the Blazers, Clippers and Jazz. In fact, *anonymous opponents from obscure colleges are said to have outplayed him*. Still, his range finder has been relatively true and deep and his ball handling is confident and creative."
> 
> "Furthermore, according to someone close to agent Andy Miller — an indicted co-conspirator in Joe Smith's illegal signing with the Timberwolves as well as the alleged coordinator behind the contract being handed over to David Stern — the Blazers committed to taking his client with the 13th pick. You know very well some team had to make a prearranged pledge for Telfair to have passed up playing for Louisville. At the same time, adidas isn't naive; no way it would've made such an extravagant investment without being certain Telefair would go high on the first round and, at the very least, if taken lower, earn a minimum of three years (i.e. be on a pro roster) of G-up salary. But, wait; stop the presses! Informants now say the Blazers aren't nearly as infatuated with Telfair as they were this winter when he was dominating Cali and Jersey tourneys. Suddenly they're hedging their pledge, which apparently has a built-in escape clause permitting Portland to tag him at No. 23 instead."
> 
> "This is making adidas very nervous and with good cause. As part of its commitment to Telfair, the sneaker company, I'm clued in, has a comprehensive agreement with the Blazers. It entails buying corporate suites and seats at the Rose Garden, promoting the rookie on billboards throughout the state and various project within the community. This was supposed to be a gigantic joint venture between adidas and Paul Allen's people, and it's now in serious jeopardy. "If the Blazers don't select Sebastian at No. 13 he will not last to 23," underlines the same talent scout. "That would definitely muck up adidas' designer plans."


http://www.nypost.com/sports/17171.htm

Of those options, I'm predicting Dwight Howard will be the best, though a foreigner could come out of nowhere.

I don't think Emeka will ever get over his back problems.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

The quotes in ian's post spell it out.

Get over the hype and start seeing the kid for what he is -- a 5'10" PG coming straight out of high school who's not a tremendous athlete and who's not a great shooter isn't exactly going to set the world on fire.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

First of all, he was measured in POR at 5'11, and he is only 18yrs old...is he done growing yet? Who knows....




> Get over the hype and start seeing the kid for what he is -- a 5'10" PG coming straight out of high school who's not a tremendous athlete and who's not a great shooter isn't exactly going to set the world on fire.


I think you personally don't like the kid, for whatever reason. The amount of NEGATIVE hype on this kid is ridiculous to me. Why? b\c he signed a Addidas contract? b\c he is another of those "NY city" PG's that every one seems to gloss? b\c he has been hyped for quite awhile now?

He won't come in and be rookie of the year, he will take time to develop IMO, But there are TWO things that MANY of you overlook when dissing Telfair... 

1) is DESIRE, he wants to be great, and he is willing to WORK to be great. DESIRE is why Zach Randolph averages 20.1 & 10.5 and Kwame Brown averages 10.9 & 7.4. You CANNOT overlook this, unfortunately many GM's (who should know better) often do.

2) He has skills that CANNOT be taught. You cannot teach a player to have the type of court vision that he has. You cannot miraculously give a player basketaball IQ, they either are smart players or they are not. Telfair is a very gifted and smart player. You put that together with his desire and he will succeed in the NBA.


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## 22ryno (Mar 17, 2003)

I don't care what he did in two meaningless all star games. He is point guard who can control the game. He has exceptional quickness and uses that to get in the lane and create for himself and other. The Clippers at Telfair being a little taller than Nelson and if Nelson is 5'11", that would put Telfair at 6'0" without shoes. He is a prospect who is mature beyond his years. Also new rumor has LeBron James lobbying for his friend to be taken by the Cavs.


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## ian (Jun 4, 2003)

I do think Telfair could develop into a very good player, but I think it will take a lot of time and I don't think he'll ever be a top 10 guy.

How many star point guards in the league now are under 6'? How many of those didn't go to college for at least 3 years? How many of those can't shoot?


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> I think you personally don't like the kid, for whatever reason.


Well, I can see where you're coming from. But I don't hate the kid. I hope he succeeds, I hope he makes good money and helps out his family (apparently Starbury wouldn't). But I just think some people are latching onto an image instead of searching for substance. Seriously, what has the kid done to merit a huge adidas contact? What does he bring to the table that makes him so special? _Why_ are some people hyping him up to be the best player from this class when this draft has a good chance of being pretty special when it's all said and done, provided the high school/Euro talent reaches its potential?



> 1) is DESIRE, he wants to be great, and he is willing to WORK to be great. DESIRE is why Zach Randolph averages 20.1 & 10.5 and Kwame Brown averages 10.9 & 7.4. You CANNOT overlook this, unfortunately many GM's (who should know better) often do.


Agreed 100%.



> 2) He has skills that CANNOT be taught. You cannot teach a player to have the type of court vision that he has. You cannot miraculously give a player basketaball IQ, they either are smart players or they are not. Telfair is a very gifted and smart player. You put that together with his desire and he will succeed in the NBA.


This is true, but it's not like Telfair's going to be the only PG in the league with uncanny court vision or good hoops IQ. Most starting PG's have these attributes. All of them have displayed them against pro competition, as opposed to high school/McD's AA competition.

I don't hate the kid. I just hate products served to the masses that are, at least at the time being, more style than substance. Call me a consumer advocate.


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## Dakota (Aug 18, 2002)

> But I just think some people are latching onto an image instead of searching for substance.


Latching onto a image?? Searching for substance?? We gave you substance. How about the stats Sebastian put up his whole four years in high school. How about the three city championships that Sebastian helped win for his team. When Sebastian was in 8th grade, he was invited to the prestigious ABCD camp, and earned a spot on the underclass All-Star Squad. In the 7th grade, The Dallas Morning News ran a story of him. In the 7th grade?!?



> Seriously, what has the kid done to merit a huge adidas contact?


Bloodlines. Marburys cousin. Years of tremendous play. Knows and played with the likes of Lebron James, Derek Jeter, Jay-Z, Jamal Crawford, Eddy Curry, and Jamaal Tinsley. James was still just a high school kid coming into the league last year. He didn't prove anything, but he still managed to get a 90$ million dollar nike contract. 



> What does he bring to the table that makes him so
> special?


Oh come on. If you don't know the answer to that question alreayd, then this conversation is void. 



> This is true, but it's not like Telfair's going to be the only PG in the league with uncanny court vision or good hoops IQ.


Your point? He is about the only one coming out in the draft from high school with it though. There are few point guards in the league with uncanny court vision and good hoops IQ. Just check the assist to turnover statistic. There are only a few many who are at a 3/1 ratio or better. (Make that 7 players)



> I don't hate the kid. I just hate products served to the masses that are, at least at the time being, more style than substance.


What do you mean by more style then substance?


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## Kezersoze (Mar 3, 2004)

Hope or Hype? 

http://www.nypost.com/sports/17171.htm


Let Telfair play in the league first before u guys start riding his jock.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Wow the fact that they say he wont be able to run a team's offense in the next 2 or 3 years is really sad, maybe the kid would have been better of playing a year in college


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

He's not Marbury's blood cousin. He is Marbury's cousin through his half-brother Jamel Thomas.


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## Perfection (May 10, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Hbwoy</b>!
> Wow the fact that they say he wont be able to run a team's offense in the next 2 or 3 years is really sad, maybe the kid would have been better of playing a year in college


Well of course. I think its a given that he would do better if he could develop under Pitino. However, the money is the main issue, as he is getting his family out of a very bad neighborhood. 

Unfortunately, because of this, he is going pro earlier then he might have otherwise.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Cleveland will probably take Telfair at 10. It makes too much sense for it not to happen.

And people need to stop talking about how bad Telfair's shot is. There is no basis for that beyond some off nights in the all-star games. Look at his stats over his career and more importantly his last year in HS. He is a better shooter than Livingston. Does anyone have JR Smith's 3 point shooting percentage? Because taking smith out of it, Telfair is the best shooting High Schooler in the draft. But he's the one everyone talks about not being able to shoot.

There's hype and then there is hype. The negativity about Telfair is where a lot of the hype is right now. Some of these claims against him are only loosely based in reality....the rest is just the product of internet message boarding...which is the same reason that so many people have rated Luke Jackson so low because of his questionable athleticism....

It took a lot of people a few weeks(for some people it took several months) into the season to see that Lebron James wasn't an overhyped sensation too...looks like that's the only way people will believe in Telfair is when it finally happens.

He'll be backing up Mcinnis in Cleveland, but the backup point guard position is huge for the Cavs so Telfair will be very important to the Cavs success next year while not having so much pressure that he snaps. And I imagine playing next to Lebron will be better for Addidas' coffers than playing in Portland where Telfair will hardly ever be on Television.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Perfection</b>!
> 
> 
> Well of course. I think its a given that he would do better if he could develop under Pitino. However, the money is the main issue, as he is getting his family out of a very bad neighborhood.
> ...


Who was the last point guard that Pitino developed? Reece Gaines? I think he'll be better off learning behind Jeff Mcinnis in Cleveland under Paul Silas who is notorious for getting the best out of his players of all ages and positions.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>C-MO 22 LD</b>!
> 
> 
> Latching onto a image?? Searching for substance?? We gave you substance.


What is this substance you're referring to? High school competition? Playing with NBA guys? McD's AA game?



> How about the stats Sebastian put up his whole four years in high school.


Hate to break it to you, but virtually every player on an NBA roster put up tremendous stats in high school. A lot of them put up tremendous stats in college or professional Euro leagues.



> How about the three city championships that Sebastian helped win for his team.


He'd hardly be the first to do this.



> When Sebastian was in 8th grade, he was invited to the prestigious ABCD camp, and earned a spot on the underclass All-Star Squad. In the 7th grade, The Dallas Morning News ran a story of him. In the 7th grade?!?














> Bloodlines. Marburys cousin. Years of tremendous play. Knows and played with the likes of Lebron James, Derek Jeter, Jay-Z, Jamal Crawford, Eddy Curry, and Jamaal Tinsley.


Style. Not necessarily substance.



> James was still just a high school kid coming into the league last year. He didn't prove anything, but he still managed to get a 90$ million dollar nike contract.


Anybody who's watched more than five minutes of basketball would have told you that LeBron James was like no other player seen before, and that his cosmic talent level was obvious regardless of competition. LeBron was arguably the best high school player of all time and validated this claim by putting up serious numbers his rookie year (he was the third rookie in NBA history to average 20/5/5). He had one of the best bodies in the NBA *before he was even drafted.* He's probably the single best athlete in the entire league, and his combination of size, athleticism and skill present matchup problems for *every single team in the NBA.* More than likely, he'll be a top 5 player within a couple years, and he has a very good chance of being one of the best to ever play the game. Which of the above describes Sebastian Telfair? 



> Oh come on. If you don't know the answer to that question alreayd, then this conversation is void.


Telfair does have pro talent. I'm not denying that. Only a fool would. I just don't think he's the best player in this draft, and I don't think his play on an NBA court will warrant all the hype accumulated over the last half decade.



> Your point? He is about the only one coming out in the draft from high school with it though.


I'd say Shaun Livingston might have pretty good vision and hoops IQ.



> There are few point guards in the league with uncanny court vision and good hoops IQ. Just check the assist to turnover statistic. There are only a few many who are at a 3/1 ratio or better. (Make that 7 players)


That's the thing, though. The PG's you cite here _have actually played in the NBA._



> What do you mean by more style then substance?


I think it's pretty easy to figure out from what I've written so far.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

> This is true, but it's not like Telfair's going to be the only PG in the league with uncanny court vision or good hoops IQ. Most starting PG's have these attributes


I wish this were true, but it isn't. Yes, they all excel at something, otherwise they wouldn't be in the NBA. But I would say that uncanny court vision and particularly good hoops IQ are RARE commodities, and the style of play in today's NBA bears that out IMO.

As for the rest, I understand your point. He is overhyped, how could he not be? With all the press clippings since he was in 7th grade, or the addidas contract, or the PR that comes from being a NY city HS player. It is overboard, I agree. However, I don't think it should be viewed as a negative or a positive for that matter, and unfortunately I think that happens all the time.

But IMO the important thing to remember is, that as a player, he has remarkable abilities. Whether or not he can utilize\maximize\improve them in the NBA is entirely tied to how bad he wants it. From everything I have read, he does, and he is not a walking egomaniac either, when he easily could be.

IF, and that is the big question with him (with a LOT of these prospects IMO), he is willing to put in the work, he will be a good NBA, maybe even great NBA player. So far he has shown that he IS willing to put in the work, and that is better than most players, who think greatness is just given to them.

I think those expecting\predicting greatness for him (ROY) right out of the gate are every bit as foolish as those who are predicting he will be a flop.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Who was the last point guard that Pitino developed? Reece Gaines? I think he'll be better off learning behind Jeff Mcinnis in Cleveland under Paul Silas who is notorious for getting the best out of his players of all ages and positions.


Pitino coached the following PG's

Billy Donovan
Travis Ford
Anthony Epps
Wayne Turner
Reece Gaines

This guy has never had great PG's and in the case of Turner and Gaines (these were top 30 HS players). Turner was an All-American and didn't even sniff the league.


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## Jockrider (Jun 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>C-MO 22 LD</b>!
> 
> 
> I'll believe it when I see the actual measurements.
> ...


West never drafted Kobe.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> 
> 
> Hate to break it to you, but virtually every player on an NBA roster put up tremendous stats in high school. A lot of them put up tremendous stats in college or professional Euro leagues.


Except for Livingston whose stats are very pedestrian. Livingingston's claim to fame is that he played well against Telfair. None of the questions asked of Telfair are being asked of Livingston right now.

There's a PG being overhyped in this draft, but it's not Telfair. Livingston has bust written all over his forehead.

Has Livingston worked out against anyone yet?

By the numbers, Livingston is a worse shooter than Telfair and far from an elite scorer like Telfair. He's going to get rocked in the pros. He really doesn't have any idea about what he's getting into.

Meanwhile Telfair is going overseas to train with his professional relatives.

Telfair knows what this is all about. He's getting himself ready. Livingston is just another clueless high schooler who is in for a rude awakening.


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## Dakota (Aug 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by *futuristxen*!
> Who was the last point guard that Pitino developed? Reece Gaines? I think he'll be better off learning behind Jeff Mcinnis in Cleveland under Paul Silas who is notorious for getting the best out of his players of all ages and positions.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: 

*VincentVega*, there is no point arguing anymore. I get what your trying to get across. I hope you get what I'm trying to get across. I don't believe anymore that he is the best in the draft, but eventually he will become so. I do believe that. 

If you argue any further, you could, quite possibly, be the most stubborn person alive. 



> IF, and that is the big question with him (with a LOT of these prospects IMO), he is willing to put in the work, he will be a good NBA, maybe even great NBA player.


I hope everyone can agree on this. If he puts the work in, then he will end up being a very very good player.



> Originally posted by *futuristxen*!
> There's a PG being overhyped in this draft, but it's not Telfair. Livingston has bust written all over his forehead.


Ouuu, burnnnnn. Nice.


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## Kmurph (May 7, 2003)

> Cleveland will probably take Telfair at 10. It makes too much sense for it not to happen.


I don't think they will at all. I think CLE wants to make the playoffs next year, and they will try and take a player who is more ready to help them achieve that goal.



> And I imagine playing next to Lebron will be better for Addidas' coffers than playing in Portland where Telfair will hardly ever be on Television.


That is BS, you do realize that Addidas North American HQ are in Portland, OR, do you not? More importantly, I would think they would prefer he excelled on another team.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> 
> 
> Pitino coached the following PG's
> ...


So it's not like he has a great track record for point guards. I don't know that there is any one college coach who knows how to coach point guards better than another....off the top I can't really think of anyone who has consistently churned out great PG's. Maybe Roy Williams has a good record?


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## Dakota (Aug 18, 2002)

> off the top I can't really think of anyone who has consistently churned out great PG's.


Lute Olsen is decent at it. 

Mike Bibby 
Jason Terry
Gilbert Arenas


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Kmurph</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think they will at all. I think CLE wants to make the playoffs next year, and they will try and take a player who is more ready to help them achieve that goal.


Check out HFK's excellent team plan for the Cavs and you will see how Telfair fits into their plans to win next year.

As far as the Addidas HQ...why does that mean that they want him in Portland?

People will forget about him up in Portland. No one stays up to watch the Blazers at night except for us diehards.

If Telfair goes to Cleveland he will be on TV about every week and in primetime. That seems to me like the best option for adidas.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Lute Olsen made Arizona PG University.

Reggie Geary
Khalid Reeves
Steve Kerr
Mike Bibby
Jason Terry
Gilbert Arenas
Damon Stoudamire

Olsen always coaches great PG's.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Except for Livingston whose stats are very pedestrian. Livingingston's claim to fame is that he played well against Telfair. None of the questions asked of Telfair are being asked of Livingston right now.


I don't think Livingston will make much of an impact for at least a few years, if at all. After a few seasons, however, I think he has a chance to be pretty good (either that, or a pretty big bust). You can't take away the fact that he's 6'7" with as good or better vision and passing skills than Telfair. You _can_ take away the fact that his shooting ability makes Telfair look like Larry Bird.



> Has Livingston worked out against anyone yet?


I'm not sure, but word is he's moved up the draft charts with solid workouts and is now a likely top 8 pick.



> By the numbers, Livingston is a worse shooter than Telfair and far from an elite scorer like Telfair. He's going to get rocked in the pros. He really doesn't have any idea about what he's getting into.


I agree. He looked slow in the MdD's AA game, so he'll look even slower in the NBA. His scoring ability is below average at best and horrible at worst. He's got A LOT to learn.



> Meanwhile Telfair is going overseas to train with his professional relatives.


If there's one thing I love about Telfair, it's his desire to work and get better. No matter where you stand on the guy, he'll always at the very least demand respect from every one of his critics.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> ....off the top I can't really think of anyone who has consistently churned out great PG's. Maybe Roy Williams has a good record?


Lute Olsen. Roy Williams is pretty good too, though.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Rex Walters (although more of a shooting guard)
Kirk Hinrich
Jacque Vaughn


Whom am I missing? I don't think outside of Hinrich Roy has produced great PG's.

Adonis Jordan
Ryan Robertson

Where are those guys?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

(this message left blank)


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

i can tell you from seeing him in person telfair is destined to someday be a star in this leauge. All these knocks on telfair is that he is SHORT! hes a pointguard, damn it not a center. this guy can just will a team to victory with his unbelievable quickness and ballhandling. This guy is a mix of marbury, and TJ ford together. And i am not saying that because he is related to marbury either. This guy has the skills and the heart to one day be one of the best point guards in the NBA.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

My question about 6-7 point guards is...do you really want a 6-7 point guard?

That always seems like a recipe for disaster with regards to the knees. It worked for Magic, and it might have worked for Lebron...but one thing you did notice about Lebron's experience, is that because of his size the smaller point guards picked him up full court and pressured him all th way up the floor for 48 minutes, regardless of whether he was turning it over. It can get very tiresome and it really puts a hamper on your ability to get into your offense. I think most point guards see a big point guard and they think they are going to steal his dribble. And as an opposing coach you can usually match your SG up against the guy for a time too.

There's a pretty good reason that most 6-7 guys end up playing the 2 or 3.

So I wonder just how much of an advantage Livingston's size is going to be in the pros. He's not strong enough to back anyone down. So basically you are going to have him at the top of the key with his back to the play to protect his dribble throwing passes over his shoulder.

I'll be interested to see if it works with Livingston.


And HKF, I was thinking of Hinrich, Vaughn, and Jordan and now Felton...were Jordan and Vaughn really that highly rated coming out of high school? It seems like Roy did a decent job of getting guys who had no business of being in the pros at PG into the Pros...I was really strapped for names though. Obviously Lute did a much better job.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> And HKF, I was thinking of Hinrich, Vaughn, and Jordan and now Felton...were Jordan and Vaughn really that highly rated coming out of high school? It seems like Roy did a decent job of getting guys who had no business of being in the pros at PG into the Pros...I was really strapped for names though. Obviously Lute did a much better job.


Jordan didn't even make it to the league for more than a year or two. 

Jacque Vaughn was a top ten player (but his HS class was one of the worst in the last 15 years). Almost all of those guys busted besides a small few like Stackhouse, Wallace and McInnis. Vaughn was said to be one of the best passers coming out of California in years (even though Jason Kidd came out just two years before him).


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Rex Walters (although more of a shooting guard)
> Kirk Hinrich
> Jacque Vaughn
> ...


Kevin Pritchard was in the NBA for a year or two, but he was basically a 6'2" SG.

Aaron Miles has an outside shot at making a roster if he continues to improve his shot (he had better stats than Chris Duhon this past season).

Roy's PG record doesn't look too hot (especially compared to Lute's), but take a look around. Which college coaches have sent more PG's to the NBA? Not many. Every coach looks bad in this department when placed next to Lute. 



> Adonis Jordan
> Ryan Robertson
> 
> Where are those guys?


Guys who were drafted but never stuck. Adonis was 5'11" (in platform shoes) and was more SG than PG. Robertson was 6'5", about 110 pounds and a combo guard. Him even getting a shot at the League was a minor miracle in and of itself.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I didn't count Aaron Miles or Raymond Felton because they haven't gotten to the league yet. 

Here is the McDonald's List: 

http://mcdepk.com/2004allamericangame/downloads/alumni_list_boys.pdf

Georgia Tech
Travis Best
Stephon Marbury

Duke
Bobby Hurley
William Avery
Jason Williams
Chris Duhon

UCLA
Baron Davis
Earl Watson


So you are right, that outside of Lute Olsen no other coaches even approach him in picking up Pro PG's.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Vaughn was said to be one of the best passers coming out of California in years (even though Jason Kidd came out just two years before him).


He was. Some of his passes were absolutely jaw-dropping, the type of stuff you don't see a great many pro points pull off. He still holds Kansas' all-time assists record (although Miles will break that early next season).

The fact that Vaughn is even in the NBA with as poor a shot as he has (God bless the kid, he works hard on it every day) stands testament not only to his work ethic and natural ability (albeit not starter-level ability), but to Roy's tutelage as well.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> I didn't count Aaron Miles or Raymond Felton because they haven't gotten to the league yet.
> 
> Here is the McDonald's List:
> ...


And of these guys, I'd put Roy slightly ahead of Bobby Cremins, Coach K and Pennzoil Head.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

If Jacque Vaughn was as good a passer as people think, he would be able to start in the NBA. I mean Mark Jackson and Jason Kidd have never been known as great shots but they can pass.

Jacque Vaughn was a great passer on the college level, like Ed Cota, Chris Corchiani, Adrian Autry, and Bobby Hurley. 

Vaughn did not have the quickness to get in the lane which made him a below avg. passer on the NBA level. If you can't get in the lane with penetration, your passing ability becomes moot. 

I mean even Steve Blake gets in the lane to make passes and he was a great college Passer.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> If Jacque Vaughn was as good a passer as people think, he would be able to start in the NBA. I mean Mark Jackson and Jason Kidd have never been known as great shots but they can pass.


The thing is, Jackson and Kidd are better _scorers_ than Vaughn could ever dream of being. Kidd is also the best passer the game has seen in the last decade.



> Jacque Vaughn was a great passer on the college level, like Ed Cota, Chris Corchiani, Adrian Autry, and Bobby Hurley.
> 
> Vaughn did not have the quickness to get in the lane which made him a below avg. passer on the NBA level. If you can't get in the lane with penetration, your passing ability becomes moot.


This is true. This is also makes Vaughn's presence in the NBA a notable benchmark in terms of Roy Williams' ability to coach PGs. 



> I mean even Steve Blake gets in the lane to make passes and he was a great college Passer.


I know. I thought Blake would have some problems in this department (he still does, but not as bad as I envisioned), but he's a tough S.O.B. and he's proven a hell of a lot of people wrong. He's a good success story.


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## Peja Vu (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hong Kong Fooey</b>!
> Ryan Robertson
> 
> Where are those guys?


Guard of the Year in the Dutch League.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Peja Vu</b>!
> 
> 
> Guard of the Year in the Dutch League.


I bet Ryan gets an outrageous amount of tail over there. That kid.....let's just say he could've made Matt Walsh jealous when he was at KU.

Speaking of the Dutch League, they have some kickass team names over there. Tulip Den Bosch, the Eiffel Towers, the Demon Astronauts......


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> 
> 
> I bet Ryan gets the most tail out of anyone in the country. That kid.....let's just say he could've made Matt Walsh jealous when he was at KU.


Too bad he's not playing in Denmark. Those ladies are off the chain.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

That's Robertson in the lower right corner:










He averaged 15.5 ppg, 2.5 rbg, 6.3 apg and 1.9 spg last season and was the best player on the best team in the league (EiffelTowers). I'm not sure that's too much to brag about, but I'm not sure that it's not something to hang your hat on, either.


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## Hawks4ever (Jun 6, 2002)

Why draft Telfair when you can just sign Brevin Knight? Same game.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Hawks4ever</b>!
> Why draft Telfair when you can just sign Brevin Knight? Same game.


Because Brevin Knight is not going to get any better. That's why.

Why draft Livingston when you can go out and get a sack of twigs for free and sit that on the end of your bench for the year?

Who knows, maybe over time that sack of twigs will turn into a sack of saw dust or even wood chips or maybe even a family of squirrells will get stuck in the bag, and then you can trade that to John Paxson for Eddy Curry in a few years.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Hawks4ever</b>!
> Why draft Telfair when you can just sign Brevin Knight? Same game.


:laugh:


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Why draft Livingston when you can go out and get a sack of twigs for free and sit that on the end of your bench for the year?
> 
> Who knows, maybe over time that sack of twigs will turn into a sack of saw dust or even wood chips or maybe even a family of squirrells will get stuck in the bag, and then you can trade that to John Paxson for Eddy Curry in a few years.


:rotf:


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## Eagles in 2003 (Jul 18, 2002)

I'd take Telfair over any other point guard in this draft, i just think he has got the potential to be great.

If being 6'7 and being able to dribble makes you a top 5 pick then be my guest, pick Shaun Livingston. The guy didn't do anything in all star games, his high school stats are less than impressive in Illinois(not exactly a bball powerhouse). Sure, his passing ability is nice and hes tall for a pg, but why should him being 6'7 make him a higher pick than Telfair, or about 3 other point guards for that matter. 

Marcus Moore is a 6'6 point guard who played college ball for 4 years, and hes mid second round at best.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Eagles in 2003</b>!
> 
> If being 6'7 and being able to dribble makes you a top 5 pick then be my guest, pick Shaun Livingston. The guy didn't do anything in all star games, his high school stats are less than impressive in Illinois(not exactly a bball powerhouse). Sure, his passing ability is nice and hes tall for a pg, but why should him being 6'7 make him a higher pick than Telfair, or about 3 other point guards for that matter.


He won two state titles in a row in Class AA in Illinois. You have no idea what you are talking about if you think the talent level is weak.

Andre Igoudala
Dee Brown
Shannon Brown
Richard McBride
Justin Cerasoli
Calvin Brock
JaMarcus Ellis
Lorenzo Thompson

and a bunch more talented HS players have come out of Illinois.

Frank Williams, Eddy Curry, Darius Miles. Illinois produces ball players. I went to college there, I should know.


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## Eagles in 2003 (Jul 18, 2002)

I said its not exactly a basketball powerhouse, which it isn't. The players you listed didn't prove that Illinois produces anything spectatcular either. Telfar plays in New York City, one of the most, if not the most notorious basketball areas in the country. I don't think there is a comparison to Illinois.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Eagles in 2003</b>!
> I said its not exactly a basketball powerhouse, which it isn't. The players you listed didn't prove that Illinois produces anything spectatcular either. Telfar plays in New York City, one of the most, if not the most notorious basketball areas in the country. I don't think there is a comparison to Illinois.


I am from NYC (as most here know). NYC is a great place to play and see great players, but just because you don't know if there are good players in a certain area, maybe you shouldn't comment on it.

Peoria is a Hoops Hotbed. 

Frank Williams, Howard Nathan, Tyrone Howard, David Booth, Marcus Griffin, AJ Guyton, Shaun Livingston, Brian Randle, Sergio McClain and a bunch of others. 

That place has a lot of history when it comes to hoops and like I said, you don't win Class AA championships in Illinois if you aren't good (back to back no less). Eddy Curry didn't win and neither did Kevin Garnett (who lost to a team that had Tai Streets on it). 

Central Illinois (Springfield & Peoria) house a lot of legit ball players.


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## Eagles in 2003 (Jul 18, 2002)

You have to be a good team to win a state title anywhere. Regardless Shaun Livingston's stats are less than impressive and other than his height i just don't see what hes got going for him.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

HKF is there a legitimate reason other than him not being a great player, for Livingston's numbers to be so average?

I mean, you have to admit, 18/6/6 isn't that impressive for someone as touted as Livingston. And his other seasons are worse.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> HKF is there a legitimate reason other than him not being a great player, for Livingston's numbers to be so average?
> 
> I mean, you have to admit, 18/6/6 isn't that impressive for someone as touted as Livingston. And his other seasons are worse.


That's because Livingston did what the coach wanted him to. He was asked to play an all-around game for Central the past two years. He can really pass though. His team is not as good as you may think it was. Of all the guys he played with (Danny Ruffin - who committed to attend my alma mater Bradley, was the best of them), none of them are going to do much. 

Before he left Richwoods to attend Central, Central had two straight poor seasons. In the two years Shaun has been there, they have won back to back state titles and beat quite a few nationally ranked teams. He does what is needed to win. I have confidence in him. When he was a freshman, my man who I respect quite a bit in terms of basketball knowledge, told me that Shaun would be a top notch player, but I told him Telfair would be. Either way, Shaun has performed in every big spot, whether HS or the summer AAU circuit. I am not going to give up on him now. Guys like Howard, Telfair and Livingston have basically been fighting for the top spot in this tremendous (I should say exceptional) HS class for the past 2 years now. They have earned it because they have boatloads of potential. 

If Livingston becomes a 14, 6 and 8 on the pros, and he is playing for a winning team, I think he will be successful. However, I don't think those will be his numbers as he gains more maturity. These group of HS players are really special.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

> From the Houston Chronicle - NBA executives have begun talking about how fast New York high school point guard Sebastian Telfair is dropping. He has dropped toward the last third of the first round. The Clippers have been said to be enamored, but don't need to spend a lottery pick. Shaun Livingston, the 6-7, 185-pound point guard prodigy out of Chicago, is drawing raves and could go in the top eight. Saint Joseph's point guard and national player of the year Jameer Nelson isn't falling. He was never considered a top 10 guy. But he could also last as late as until the last third of the first round. Nelson will always be small, but has an NBA game. He'll probably move back up when teams begin dealing first-round picks.


And the nosedive begins.


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## IAMGREAT (May 22, 2003)

Still ROY.


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## Jockrider (Jun 25, 2003)

Telfair may end up in the 2nd round. He is really struggling in the workouts. He is smaller than Jameer Nelson and the knock on him is his size.


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