# Kobe and Payton is the best backcourt in NBA history!



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Is there any question? 2 of the top 5 guards in the game together? Kobe should average 3 steals a game with Payton locking it down. He might even surpass Ben Wallace as the best defensive roamer in the game.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

It might be. No more tony parker/bibby scoring 30 pts on 50% shooting or francis dropping 40


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Only if Kobe doesn't go to prison...


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

Hate to tell every one but Payton isn't as good as he used to be.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Thanks for the news flash, love to remind you that he is the top point guard in the Western Conference.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> Hate to tell every one but Payton isn't as good as he used to be.


If he were we wouldn't even need to play the season. Everyone would concede the title to us. As it is he's still damn good (20 pts 8 dimes ain't too shabby) and still a top 3 PG in this league.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jemel Irief</b>!
> Is there any question? 2 of the top 5 guards in the game together? Kobe should average 3 steals a game with Payton locking it down. He might even surpass Ben Wallace as the best defensive roamer in the game.


Our backcourt is much better than what the Suns had in 2000 when they had Kidd and Penny. Penny was coming off of his tenth knee surgery and I never thought he was going to be the same player he was. Kidd was a little better than Payton is but Kobe is much better than Penny so I'd say we're significantly better.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jemel Irief</b>!
> Thanks for the news flash, love to remind you that he is the top point guard in the Western Conference.


You wish. I would take Francis, Nash, Bibby, Arenas (if he stays in the west) and Marbury over Payton any day. If Kidd goes to the Spurs, I would take him as well. 

He will be 35 next year and I hate to say this, but NBA players aren't like a fine whine with age.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> 
> 
> You wish. I would take Francis, Nash, Bibby, Arenas (if he stays in the west) and Marbury over Payton any day. If Kidd goes to the Spurs, I would take him as well.
> ...


You'd take Bibby over Payton?!?!!!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :rofl: :rotf: :rotf:


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Also, I guarantee that if you replace Payton with the starting PG of these teams...Suns, Rockets, Mavericks...they'd be more successful.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

This is only a taste of the extreme Laker vitriol we will see next year Laker fans. I doubt that Idunkonyou would take Bibby and Arenas (lol) over Payton a month ago.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> 
> 
> You'd take Bibby over Payton?!?!!!
> ...


Hell ya. He gives just about every thing Payton give now, except he shoots a higher FG%, much higher 3P% and a much higher FT%. He is also only 25 years old, while Payton is 35.

Oh and I forgot to add that he isn't even his teams 1st option yet still has very close stats to what Payton has.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> He will be 35 next year and I hate to say this, but NBA players aren't like a fine whine with age.


Yes, but they are like a fine wine.  Anyways, you have a point with Francis and Marbury but I wouldn't take any of the other guys over Payton. Arenas is young and has great potential but he isn't better than Payton NOW. As good as Nash is he is not the all-round player that Payton is. The only thing he does better than GP is shoot the ball. Payton is just as good a passer, just as good a scorer, and a better rebounder and defender. Bibby is BY FAR the most overrated player in the NBA. He couldn't even hold a strand of GP's pubic hair (sorry I know that is disgusting) let alone his jock. Kidd isn't here yet so lets not worry about him. Bottom line: GP is easily a top 5 PG in this league and arguably in the top 3.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Jemel Irief</b>!
> This is only a taste of the extreme Laker vitriol we will see next year Laker fans. I doubt that Idunkonyou would take Bibby and Arenas (lol) over Payton a month ago.


I saw Payton play a lot last year and his game has gone down hill. The only reason his stats were still high is because he was the 1st option and has been since I can remember. Lets see how he handles a role where he may not even be the 3rd option.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> 
> 
> Hell ya. He gives just about every thing Payton give now, except he shoots a higher FG%, much higher 3P% and a much higher FT%. He is also only 25 years old, while Payton is 35.


Ok are you talking about to build a team or for next season? If it's the former your post actually is more respectable.

Bibby gives everything Payton does? Since when did he turn into a dominant low-post scorer and ball-hawk defender that can guards two's as well as one's? He's just a glorified Troy Hudson who expolits the pick and roll all day.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes, but they are like a fine wine.  Anyways, you have a point with Francis and Marbury but I wouldn't take any of the other guys over Payton. Arenas is young and has great potential but he isn't better than Payton NOW. As good as Nash is he is not the all-round player that Payton is. The only thing he does better than GP is shoot the ball. Payton is just as good a passer, just as good a scorer, and a better rebounder and defender. Bibby is BY FAR the most overrated player in the NBA. He couldn't even hold a strand of GP's pubic hair (sorry I know that is disgusting) let alone his jock. Kidd isn't here yet so lets not worry about him. Bottom line: GP is easily a top 5 PG in this league and arguably in the top 3.


Like I said, most of the PGs, if not all of them besides Francis weren't the #1 options on their teams, yet they still put up near the same numbers as Payton, if not better numbers. 

Lets see how Payton handles being at least the #3 option for the 1st time in his career at the age of 35 before we start saying he is still the Payton of old.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> 
> 
> Hell ya. He gives just about every thing Payton give now, except he shoots a higher FG%, much higher 3P% and a much higher FT%. He is also only 25 years old, while Payton is 35.


Ok are you talking about to build a team or for next season? If it's the former your post actually is more respectable.

Bibby gives everything Payton does? Since when did he turn into a dominant low-post scorer and ball-hawk defender that can guards two's as well as one's? He's just a glorified Troy Hudson who expolits the pick and roll all day.

I bet you his numbers as a 3rd option will be better than Arena's, Francis's or whoever's numbers if they were a 3rd option.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> 
> 
> Hell ya. He gives just about every thing Payton give now, except he shoots a higher FG%, much higher 3P% and a much higher FT%. He is also only 25 years old, while Payton is 35.
> ...


Yet...he is one of the most overpaid players in the league, and he he failed to meet any expectations this season...


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jemel Irief</b>!
> 
> 
> Ok are you talking about to build a team or for next season? If it's the former your post actually is more respectable.


Yes, I suppose I agree with that. Although, I do believe that GP has another strong 5-6 years left in him.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> 
> 
> Yet...he is one of the most overpaid players in the league, and he he failed to meet any expectations this season...


More like his team didn't meet expectations, but that would happen to any team if their best player got hurt. 

Bibby was also hurt for most of the year. Lets see how he comes back next season when he is healthy again.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> 
> 
> Hell ya. He gives just about every thing Payton give now, except he shoots a higher FG%, much higher 3P% and a much higher FT%. He is also only 25 years old, while Payton is 35.


Bibby has always been a good shooter but most of his shots come off of screens. It isn't like he has to create his own shot or anything. All he does is move to a spot and run behind a screen set by Divac and Webber and shoot an open jumper. GP has never really had the luxury of playing with talented teammates. After Kemp left Seattle it was basically him and a bunch of scrubs. He's always had to create his own shots and he's still managed to shoot a great %. He's never been a great 3pt shooter but he's a 47% career shooter so you know his mid range jumper is money. Plus, GP is a better rebounder, defender, and passer. He may be older but he's still better at 35 than Bibby will ever be.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> 
> 
> GP has another strong 5-6 years left in him.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :rotf:


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Idunkonyou</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :rotf:


Yeah that was pretty bad.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

I'm inclined to agree with X. Look at Stockton. Payton is bigger than him and in just as good of shape.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jemel Irief</b>!
> I'm inclined to agree with X. Look at Stockton. Payton is bigger than him and in just as good of shape.


Payton is a different type of player though. He does more athletic things than Stockton and I think his performance will decline with age. He'll still be pretty good at 38 but I doubt he averages 20 and 8.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Payton is a different type of player though. He does more athletic things than Stockton and I think his performance will decline with age. He'll still be pretty good at 38 but I doubt he averages 20 and 8.


Of course his performance will decline with age, so did Stocktons. He won't average 20 and 8 at 38 but he'll be good for like 16 and 6 (which is what Bibby gets, and Payton will still be a better defender than him at 38).


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## Kid_kanada (Jun 23, 2003)

How does Bibby even get mentioned in this arguement about top 3. Maybe top 3 of PG playing for a team in Cali, but top three in the league.


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## dsakilla (Jun 15, 2003)

Best backourt of all-time? Give me a freakin break.:no:


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>dsakilla</b>!
> Best backourt of all-time? Give me a freakin break.:no:


If it is such a pathetic argument then feel free to chime in. Name some other backcourts that rival this one. I can't think of too many.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Kid_kanada</b>!
> How does Bibby even get mentioned in this arguement about top 3. Maybe top 3 of PG playing for a team in Cali, but top three in the league.


1) Gary Payton
2) Andre Miller
3) Gilbert Arenas
4) Bobby Jackson
5) Mike Bibby


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## starvydas (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> If it is such a pathetic argument then feel free to chime in. Name some other backcourts that rival this one. I can't think of too many.


Magic and Jamal Wilkes
Magic and Scott
Jordan and Pippen (Pippen being the PG)
Thomas and Dumars
Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman
Oscar Robertson and Adrian Smith 

are all better backcourts (IMO)


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## shobe42 (Jun 21, 2002)

*The Kings are back. wheres our crown at?*

look out nba this is gonna be a fun year.

Payton is going to be okay with being the third option.

dont you think before he decided on LA he took into account that hed be playin' with shaq and kobe.

i'm pretty sure if he wanted to be the main man he would of went somewhere else.

i always thought gary payton was a great player but was never that big a fan. you can bet i am now though!


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>starvydas</b>!
> 
> 
> Magic and Jamal Wilkes
> ...


The only thing that hurts Kobe and Payton a little is that Payton is 35. If Payton were 30 this backcourt would be amazing. As it is, I think this backcourt is better than some of the one's you listed. Both Payton and Kobe are going to be on the NBA's 50 greatest players list and I think both will rank very high. I'm only 22 so I didn't get to see everyone on your list so I'm going by stats only. Magic is immortal but is Jamal Wilkes as good as either Kobe or Payton? In the end, I can't imagination that combination being any better than Kobe and Payton. Scott was a great athlete, shooter, and defender but some of his success has to be attributed to Magic. He put up very good numbers but he wasn't individually as good as either Kobe or Payton. Hell, Payton at 35 can put up 20 and 8 which is great. In the end, Magic evens it out and I'd say they are equal. Pippen was technically a SF but I can see what you mean. He did handle the ball most of the time. They are better than Kobe and Payton. Thomas has had a slightly better career than Payton and was better in his prime than Payton is in his 30's. However, I think Kobe is clearly better than Dumars. Dumars was a good shooter and an excellent defender but he wasn't nearly as skilled as Kobe. I'd say the Pistons were slightly better or even to this backcourt. I looked at the stats on Cousy and Sharman and did not come away impressed. At 35 Payton put up better stats than Sharman ever had. Cousy had some nice numbers but I actually think Payton has had just as good a career, if not better. I think Kobe will also go down as being better than both Cousy and Sharman. As good as they were, Russell was the key to their 11 rings. Even now, I still think Payton and Kobe are better. Oscar Robertson is immortal just like Magic but I don't really remember Adrian Smith. I have no clue on that one. Overall, I think Kobe and Payton are among the top 3 in that list. However, the only thing that hurts them is Payton's age. If he were in his prime they'd vault to the top of the list (with Pip and Jordan).


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

Whenever I think of the best backcourt in history I think of Jerry West and Gail Goodrich...second would be Frazier and Monroe. This backcourt is tremendous on paper but wait a little guys because they haven't played together yet. Right now we are only looking at the potential stats they can put up but with Malone also presumably signing to the Lakes the stats for a lot of guys won't be as padded. Nevertheless on paper this backcourt is as good as they come...if Payton was 3-4 years younger it would definitely be the best alltime but I think their statline will look somewhere like this especially playing with Shaq and Malone:

Kobe 25-28 ppg, 5-6 rpg, 4-5 apg
Payton 10-13 ppg, 2-4 rpg, 5-6 apg

Is that really better than West & Goodrich?

Their best season together:

71-72 (69-13)

Goodrich 25.9 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 4.5 apg
West 25.8 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 9.7 apg

I guess we will see...but I can't wait for next season...SHOWTIME IS BACK!


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Bball_Doctor</b>!
> Whenever I think of the best backcourt in history I think of Jerry West and Gail Goodrich...second would be Frazier and Monroe. This backcourt is tremendous on paper but wait a little guys because they haven't played together yet. Right now we are only looking at the potential stats they can put up but with Malone also presumably signing to the Lakes the stats for a lot of guys won't be as padded. Nevertheless on paper this backcourt is as good as they come...if Payton was 3-4 years younger it would definitely be the best alltime but I think their statline will look somewhere like this especially playing with Shaq and Malone:
> 
> Kobe 25-28 ppg, 5-6 rpg, 4-5 apg
> ...


Damn! West averaged 26 points and 10 dimes!  That is amazing.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Damn! West averaged 26 points and 10 dimes!  That is amazing.


His career:

http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=WESTJE01

Yup he was actually ALWAYS the PG although he was listed as SG but he actually really played the PG role for the Lakers that is why I don't understand why he is not listed in people's top PG of alltime lists. I believe he led the Lakes in apg in all his seasons played except his first.


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## Scuall (Jul 25, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>starvydas</b>!
> 
> 
> Magic and Jamal Wilkes
> ...


Jamaal played the 3, and I'd list Pippen at that position also.

Thomas and Dumars were great, especially since they were backed up by Vinnie Johnson.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Better backcourts-

Oscar and West in the 60 olympics
Magic and Jordan in the 92 olympics

End of list


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## ACE (May 5, 2003)

this "best backcourt in nba history" thing is absolutely ridculous, payton and kobe haven't played a single NBA game together.

Come back in a couple of years when they have and state your opinion then


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