# Is Lebron the best SF in the NBA?



## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Who is better than LBJ at the 3 right now?

The only players I can think of that you can make a strong argument for are Peja or AK47.

I give James the edge over Peja overrall since he is a better passer and looks to be better defensively. He is also better at creating his own shot and making plays for others. 

AK47 i'm not so sure. James is the better passer, and arguably the better scorer, but AK47 is still a superior defender.


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## Tersk (Apr 9, 2004)

Thats really overating him. AK47, Artest, Peja and RJ are all better than him with Carmello about equal


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> Thats really overating him. AK47, Artest, Peja and RJ are all better than him with Carmello about equal


Yep. Lebron can improve on that and pass some of them next season, but as of right now, thats where he stands.


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## TyGuy (Apr 19, 2003)

He is much beter than rj right now....


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

He's better than Artest. He proves that everytime they meet. AK is nice. But Lebron is nicer. RJ, let's not kid ourselves. RJ is pretty garbage. Peja is one dimensional.

I think Lebron is pretty clearly the best 3.


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## tpb2 (Oct 23, 2003)

RJ? I don't know if LeBron's the best, but he's a better all-around player than RJ.


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## BBALLSCIENCES (Oct 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> He's better than Artest. He proves that everytime they meet. AK is nice. But Lebron is nicer. RJ, let's not kid ourselves. RJ is pretty garbage. Peja is one dimensional.
> 
> I think Lebron is pretty clearly the best 3.


Exactly.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

nah, artest, ak47, peja, and even marion are all as good or equal lebron, if not better. i think artest/ak47 are the best, and lebron can make a strong case in being a better player than peja and marion, but that makes him 3rd best at best. however, he's extremely versatile and can play the 1/2, is improving and seems to be getting bigger everyday, he's the most *valuable*. him being the best will come with time.:yes:


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

I don't think that LeBron is the best. He wouldn't have been at the end of last year and we haven't played any games (that count) yet to be elevated from his last years status. However even last year I'd have put him in front of both RJ and Artest (mainly because he consistently outplayed him head to head last year).


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>theo4002</b>!
> Thats really overating him. AK47, Artest, Peja and RJ are all better than him with Carmello about equal


I thought about Artest, but really Lebron ate him up head to head last season.

Lebron 
8-18 23pts 5rebs 3asst 
10-16 27pts 4rebs 6asst 3stls 3blks 
9-20 22pts 10rebs 4asst 
12-22 26pts 3rebs 4asst 3stls 

Artest
8-19 21pts 3rebs 2asst 2stls
6-16 16pts 4rebs 7asst 3stls
6-16 18pts 0rebs 2asst 3stls
8-15 21pts 6rebs 0asst 3stls

Lebron average: 51%fg 24.5ppg 5.5reb 4.25asst 1.5stls
Artest average: 42%fg 19.0ppg 3.25reb 2.75asst 2.75stls

Now stats don't always tell the whole story, but it seems pretty clear that Lebron is a better ALL AROUND player than Artest, who is obviously a better defender. Especially when you take into account the fact that Artest was a DPOY and Lebron was only an 18 year old highschool rookie. 

No way in hell Richard Jefferson is better than him, in fact Lebron's biggest game came against Jefferson and the Nets.
41pts 13assts 6rebs 3stls 2 TO, come on now Jefferson has never had a game like that in his entire career. 

Not getting into the Melo argument again, but suffice to say this season with the improvements I saw in Lebron's game there should be a clear distinction between the two once the season starts rolling.


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## c_dog (Sep 15, 2002)

i think there's more to being a better SF than just winning the individual matchups. the thing is artest is the best defensive SF in the league and guard the opponent's best players night in night out and at the same time score around 17-18ppg with decent efficiency. it doesn't matter if james outplayed artest last year because artest can make a difference with his defense against every team, so until james can put up stats like that on a consitent basis against every team(which can be as soon as this season :|), artest is still better.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Players easily better than LeBron at the 3:

1) Artest
2) AK
3) Peja

Players you could argue: RJ, Marion, Melo, Odom. 

Except for Melo, LeBron is easily the worst defender of all those players, especially AK and Artest. The only thing LeBron does better than any of those players is pass, and he doesn't even do that a ton better than any of those players (except for Peja and Melo). 



> I think Lebron is pretty clearly the best 3.


Quite clearly, he's not even close to the best SF in the league. Though, someday he may be. Take a poll on the main board, that would be pretty funny.


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## Nevus (Jun 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Players easily better than LeBron at the 3:
> 
> 1) Artest
> ...


I don't think he's the best yet but I think you're being too harsh on his defense. Most people seem to remember his defense from the first few months of his rookie year and think that's how he plays... he improved a lot in his rookie season and a lot more over the summer. His defense is pretty good.

But, I understand if you don't take my word for it yet... just watch for that early in this season.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Nevus</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't think he's the best yet but I think you're being too harsh on his defense. Most people seem to remember his defense from the first few months of his rookie year and think that's how he plays... he improved a lot in his rookie season and a lot more over the summer. His defense is pretty good.


Actually, I mostly watched LeBron late in the season. His defense was very poor at times. Like AI, the only thing that saved him on occasion was how well he played the passing lanes. 

But still, he isn't in the same universe as AK or Artest defensively.



> But, I understand if you don't take my word for it yet... just watch for that early in this season.


I will.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Players easily better than LeBron at the 3:
> 
> 1) Artest
> ...


We all know your intense hate for lebron but he is hands down and above anyone in the sf catagory in passing ability no question


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BBALLSCIENCES</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly.


Oh my Son, how are you doing?


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>SamTheMan67</b>!
> 
> We all know your intense hate for lebron but he is hands down and above anyone in the sf catagory in passing ability no question


Please. What makes him better than Odom as a passer? APG? Nope, Odom has been able to match that, as well as A/TO ratio for years. Style? I guess, argue with yourself all you want. 



> Oh my Son, how are you doing?


:rotf:


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Lebron isn't the best. Not yet, but he will be one of them. 

AK47, Artest, Peja are all better than he is. Peja maybe one dimensional, but his game is so effective for the Kings that he just needs to put above Lebron. Neither AK or Artest matches Lebrons offensive intensity, explosiveness or atheleticism, but they are both a lot better defensively. Like someone said, the only thing that saves Lebron's defense is that he plays hte passing lanes very well. He is improving but still not a good man to man defender. Also, don't hate on RJ, he is a potential 20/8/5 guy, unlike Martin, he doesn't need Kidd to be effective, when Kidd and Martin were out last season, he basically carried the team and wasn't so shabby either. Hes a pretty good rebounder, very unselfish, a good defender, atheletic and an overall great team player. I think as the number 1 scoring option on his team, he is just as good as Lebron, but man is he going to have a tough season.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

I'm starting to wonder why everyone thinks LeBrons defense is so bad. I really don't think it is. Yeah last year he would from time to time get lost around picks, but he tended to rotate on defense pretty well and he really was not beaten one on one very often. I know that he's no worse than alot of other players on defense. While he may not be one of the best he is clearly above average.


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## luizmelo (Sep 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>c_dog</b>!
> nah, artest, ak47, peja, and even marion are all as good or equal lebron, if not better. i think artest/ak47 are the best, and lebron can make a strong case in being a better player than peja and marion, but that makes him 3rd best at best. however, he's extremely versatile and can play the 1/2, is improving and seems to be getting bigger everyday, he's the most *valuable*. him being the best will come with time.:yes:


 And this topic is over!:yes:


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## thefuture2 (May 2, 2004)

I think he's the best all around. Peja doesn't play D, AK47 plays great D but you dont see the scoring like LeBron, RJ has to lead the Nets this year with help from JKidd and they can't do it without a big man. LBJ will have the best stats this year, I can guarantee you that. Not only that, I think he's the best SF in the game.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> Players easily better than LeBron at the 3:
> 
> 1) Artest
> ...


I can understand an argument for AK and Peja, but I don't see how you can say Artest is "EASILY" better than Lebron - let me explain why. 


1) When they faced each other on the court, Lebron outplayed him (statistically) as a highschool rookie. Artest was a 5 year vet, yet Lebron still lit him up for 24.5ppg (51%fg). On top of that, he exhibited a better all around floor game: 5.5reb 4.25asst 1.5stls. 

2) If you compare their numbers from the entire season, again Lebron performed better all around despite playing multiple positions and having a bullseye on his back coming out of highschool. 

Lebron:
39.5min 42%fg 29%3pt 75%ft 20.9ppg 5.5rpg 5.9apg 1.65spg 0.73bpg

Artest: 
37.2min 42%fg 31%3pt 73%ft 18.3ppg 5.3rpg 3.7apg 2.08spg 0.68bpg 

Lebron averages 2.6 more ppg, more rebounds, 2.2 more apg, and for all his "terrible" defense more bpg and only 0.43 spg less than Artest. Those 2.2 more assists is essentially 5+ more points for your team. 

This is reflected in their efficiency: 
Lebron 18.77 (31st) vs Artest 16.84 (49th) 

Clearly again, statistically Lebron is the better all around player.

My question to those who say Artest is "easily" a better player than Lebron is why? Lebron is a far better passer, can create his own shot better than Artest, can make plays for others better than Artest, and defensively averages more blocks and less than a half a steal less than Artest. Lebron's greatest weakness, shooting, is no strength for Artest either as he only shot 42% from 2 and 31% from 3 (was actually worse than Lebron from the line). In terms of all around efficiency, Lebron is miles ahead despite his age and experience disadvantage. 

The only clear area Artest has any kind of advantage doesn't show up in the box score, and thats position defense. My rebuttal to that would be that Lebron showed the ability to play pressure man to man defense this summer in the Olympics, and thus far in the preseason has exhibited much improved man to man D combined with his athletic ability to block shots and play the passing lanes. Point being if Lebron improves to play above average defense and improve upon his spg+bpg numbers I don't see how you can argue he is not a better all around player than Artest.


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## zero2hero00 (May 1, 2004)

reggie miller and brent barry are better at the 3 that LBJ


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Benedict_Boozer</b>!
> 
> 
> I can understand an argument for AK and Peja, but I don't see how you can say Artest is "EASILY" better than Lebron - let me explain why.
> ...


Firstly, that doesn't really prove your point. If all we went by is individual matchups, wouldn't LeBron = Tmac based on their head-to-heads last season? Or for that matter, any player that plays well against a particular player? 

And as far as I remember, the first time LeBron faced Artest's defense was in the 4th quarter of the first Pacers-Cavs game last year, and he was shut down.



> 2) If you compare their numbers from the entire season, again Lebron performed better all around despite playing multiple positions


If numbers meant that much, we'd be talking about how Stackhouse was as good as Kobe a few years ago. Please, use an ounce of context, especially when defensive prowess is what really separates these two players.



> and having a bullseye on his back coming out of highschool.


Uh, yeah. :uhoh:



> Lebron:
> 39.5min 42%fg 29%3pt 75%ft 20.9ppg 5.5rpg 5.9apg 1.65spg 0.73bpg
> 
> Artest:
> 37.2min 42%fg 31%3pt 73%ft 18.3ppg 5.3rpg 3.7apg 2.08spg 0.68bpg


Should I also bring up Steve Francis' numbers from his rookie season? That would be equally pointless. 



> Lebron averages 2.6 more ppg, more rebounds, 2.2 more apg, and for all his "terrible" defense more bpg and only 0.43 spg less than Artest. Those 2.2 more assists is essentially 5+ more points for your team.


Good lord. 

First off, ppg is meaningless without talking about efficiency. Artest shot a slightly higher FG%, drew slightly more FTs per game, and took far fewer shots per game last season. Therefore, he was a more efficient scorer than LeBron. So the 2.6 ppg difference is basically nothing, or close to it. 

Secondly, how on earth are spg or bpg _that_ representative of perimeter defense? For crying out loud, you could make that same statement about Pippen in his prime; that despite LeBron not being a good defender, he still averaged more bpg than and "slightly" fewer spg than a prime Scottie Pippen. It would be a equally ridiculous statement. spg and bpg are about 1/10th of the defensive picture in the NBA.

Passing I'll give you, of course. LeBron has that on most people at his position.



> This is reflected in their efficiency:
> Lebron 18.77 (31st) vs Artest 16.84 (49th)


No, it isn't. LeBron's efficiency advantage comes completely from passing, that's it. He was a an equally good scorer compared to Artest last season and equally good rebounder. 



> Clearly again, statistically Lebron is the better all around player.


Stats aren't everything, and never have been. The majority of informed basketball enthusiasts will tell you Artest is far and away a better all around player compared to LeBron. LeBron is a better offensive player, Artest is many many levels ahead of him defensively. That's what happens when you win those, what's it called, oh yes, Defensive Player of the Year award. The last perimeter player to do that was Gary Payton, who was the first guy to do that since this other guy named Michael Jordan. 



> My question to those who say Artest is "easily" a better player than Lebron is why? Lebron is a far better passer, can create his own shot better than Artest, can make plays for others better than Artest, and defensively averages more blocks and less than a half a steal less than Artest.


LeBron is a better passer by a good margin. That's it. He was barely an equally good scorer as Artest last season. Yeah, he can create his own shot better, but that's pointless to talk about when he was an equally efficient scorer.

I still can't believe you're equating bpg and spg to defense as if that's all there is to playing defense. It's beyond laughable. 



> Lebron's greatest weakness, shooting, is no strength for Artest either as he only shot 42% from 2 and 31% from 3 (was actually worse than Lebron from the line). In terms of all around efficiency, Lebron is miles ahead despite his age and experience disadvantage.


Christ. Jump shooting is not reflected in FG%, it's reflected in eFG% on jump shots. Last year, LeBron hit 35.6% on his jump shots, Artest hit 38.2% of his jump shots. Artest was the better jump shooter last season, it's fact. Look it up: www.82games.com.



> The only clear area Artest has any kind of advantage doesn't show up in the box score, and thats position defense. My rebuttal to that would be that Lebron showed the ability to play pressure man to man defense this summer in the Olympics,


Yes, for less than 10 mpg off the bench against slower International guards, LeBron showed the ability to shuffle his feet quickly. Congratu-freaking-lations!



> and thus far in the preseason has exhibited much improved man to man D combined with his athletic ability to block shots and play the passing lanes.


What? I purposefully watched LeBron closely this preseason, just about the only team I've watched besides the Lakers this preseason. The guy's defense doesn't look any different; he stands out on the perimeter and still doesn't show the defensive instincts and smarts to stay in front of his man. Athletically looks exactly the same as he did at the Olympics. 



> Point being if Lebron improves to play above average defense and improve upon his spg+bpg numbers I don't see how you can argue he is not a better all around player than Artest.


Since Artest was voted the best defensive player in the league last season, I fail to see how LeBron becoming an average defender would mean he'd be a better all around player. LeBron would need a corresponding leap in his offensive production for him to reach Artest's level.

You know what, take a poll on the main board, and ask who is the better player, and ask for reasoning. That would be an interesting thread.

EDIT: Added link.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SamTheMan67</b>!
> 
> We all know your intense hate for lebron but he is hands down and above anyone in the sf catagory in passing ability no question


EHL may be a hater, but Im tired of all the guys with Lebron avys trying to act like hes already the best in the L. 

Right now, theres no possible way you can say hes better than Artest, AK or Peja, and you can argue for a few others.

I dont see why this angers Lebron fans so much, hes going into his second year, and will without a doubt be the best SF in the league, and have a shot at best player in the league, in the years to come, baring injury.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Benedict_Boozer</b>!
> 
> 
> I can understand an argument for AK and Peja, but I don't see how you can say Artest is "EASILY" better than Lebron - let me explain why.
> ...



Well, if you knew anything about basketball, you would take into account that Artest played for the team who garnered the best record in the league, while Lebron was the clear cut top dog on a crappy team.

Then again, this wouldnt add to your argument, so its clear why you left it out.

Good work.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> EHL may be a hater, but Im tired of all the guys with Lebron avys trying to act like hes already the best in the L.
> ...


I agree. Well, except for the hater part. :grinning:


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballscientist</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh my Son, how are you doing?


:laugh: :laugh:


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>EHL</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree. Well, except for the hater part. :grinning:


Dont worry buddy, no matter how many mean things these guys say about you when your not looking, I still love you the most.


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## bobby0423 (Oct 31, 2004)

no doubt during the the all star break a bunch of people said lebron was best player in the east during the season 
25pts 5ast 7reb .71steals .55 blocks better overall d larry brown said he was inproving


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## bobby0423 (Oct 31, 2004)

lebron wont be as good as we may think lets say for example kobe 2002 playoffs he got 32 pts per but on d he wasnt at his level and he strugled against st.antonio . the reason he strugled was because he weighed 232lbs. lebron and melo may be man beast but pretty soon they will be in between and less effective they need to get quicker


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bobby0423</b>!
> lebron wont be as good as we may think lets say for example kobe 2002 playoffs he got 32 pts per but on d he wasnt at his level and he strugled against st.antonio . the reason he strugled was because he weighed 232lbs. lebron and melo may be man beast but pretty soon they will be in between and less effective they need to get quicker


The last time Lebron was around 232 he was probably a junior or sophmore in high school. haha.

Other than that, I don't really know what you're saying here. Can you explain it better?


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

I didnt say he was the best sf i just said he is the best passer without a doubt in the catagory


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

> Firstly, that doesn't really prove your point. If all we went by is individual matchups, wouldn't LeBron = Tmac based on their head-to-heads last season? Or for that matter, any player that plays well against a particular player?


I understand you can't base a comparison solely on head to head stats, but since Artest is the reigning DPOY, the fact that Lebron was able to put up very effective all around numbers against him should be taken into consideration (especially since Artest locked down so many other great players). Additionally I would make the point that matchups can be useful to see the relative strengths and weaknesses of the players in question. Obviously others disagree!




> If numbers meant that much, we'd be talking about how Stackhouse was as good as Kobe a few years ago. Please, use an ounce of context, especially when defensive prowess is what really separates these two players.


Stackhouse never put up numbers comparable to Kobe. His best scoring season (which i'm assuming your referring to) he averaged 29ppg but only shot 40.2% and attempted 24 shots a game. Kobe averged 28.5 shooting 47% and 22 shots a game.
Kobe also averaged more rebounds, steals, and the same number of assists = not even close. 

The numbers I posted comparing Lebron and Artest differ in that Lebron is up in basically every category and in some cases by significant margins. Also the difference is consistent not only in their head to head matchups, but their season numbers as well.
As for defense, I already stated that Artest's edge doesn't show up in the boxscore against James. 



> Should I also bring up Steve Francis' numbers from his rookie season? That would be equally pointless.


I guess when you compare two players, say David Robinson and Patrick Ewing, their stats should not be taken into consideration at all in your mind? Stats are an objective measure that can be used as part of a comparison between two players, completely disregarding them seems to reflect bias. 



> First off, ppg is meaningless without talking about efficiency. Artest shot a slightly higher FG%, drew slightly more FTs per game, and took far fewer shots per game last season. Therefore, he was a more efficient scorer than LeBron. So the 2.6 ppg difference is basically nothing, or close to it.


Ha slightly higher is right, .421 compared to .417. 
That is 0.004 difference, come on now. In terms of free throws, Lebron took 5.8 and Artest took 6.0, again hardly any solid disparity. Based on the numbers and not your perception, they are essentially identical shooters in terms of effectiveness. 

The 2.6ppg you could argue is a reflection of him taking more attempts, but one could just as easily argue had Lebron reduced his attempts to match Artests, his fg% would have been much higher making him a more efficient scorer. (which coincides with his ppg+/fg%- throughout the season) 



> Secondly, how on earth are spg or bpg that representative of perimeter defense? For crying out loud, you could make that same statement about Pippen in his prime; that despite LeBron not being a good defender, he still averaged more bpg than and "slightly" fewer spg than a prime Scottie Pippen. It would be a equally ridiculous statement. spg and bpg are about 1/10th of the defensive picture in the NBA.


I didn't mean to come across as overstating spg and bpg that much. Steals and blocks are stats you can get off ability and athleticism moreso than skill, and Lebron was fairly good at those aspects of defense. I agree that he has much to improve in terms of technique and lateral movement to be anywhere close to Artest, but those are things that can be learned with time and improved upon. Just to make it clear in no way shape or form was I arguing that Lebron is better or close to Artest defensively, just that he is effective at some aspects of defense and improving in others.




> Stats aren't everything, and never have been. The majority of informed basketball enthusiasts will tell you Artest is far and away a better all around player compared to LeBron. LeBron is a better offensive player, Artest is many many levels ahead of him defensively. That's what happens when you win those, what's it called, oh yes, Defensive Player of the Year award. The last perimeter player to do that was Gary Payton, who was the first guy to do that since this other guy named Michael Jordan.


This is what I was asking, your essentially saying Artest is "far and away" better because he is better on defense while Lebron is better on offense. You value defense more than offense, which I agree with and is why I place AK above Lebron. I would differ in that I feel Lebron's passing ability elevates him over Artest enough offensively to make it an argument between the two. Making your teammates better is a very important aspect when comparing players, and passing in particular is what elevates some of the greats and makes Lebron a unique player. (e.g. Magic was a great scorer, but his passing ability set him apart even though his defense was just slightly above average).



> Christ. Jump shooting is not reflected in FG%, it's reflected in eFG% on jump shots. Last year, LeBron hit 35.6% on his jump shots, Artest hit 38.2% of his jump shots. Artest was the better jump shooter last season, it's fact.


Again Artest hitting 38% of his jumpshots relative to Lebron hitting 36% is nothing to write home about, just like Lebron shooting 75% from the line and Artest shooting 73%. The difference is practically neglible. Neither was an effective jumpshooter, and the point stands that Lebron's greatest weakness is by no means a strength of Artest (unless you consider 38% jumpshooting a strength?)



> Yes, for less than 10 mpg off the bench against slower International guards, LeBron showed the ability to shuffle his feet quickly. Congratu-freaking-lations!


That's more than the majority of the guys on the US team showed defensively. And the "slower" international guards had a field day against our team nearly every time. Belittling his improvement doesn't change the fact that he showed the ethic and ability to play good D and improve upon his weaknesses.



> What? I purposefully watched LeBron closely this preseason, just about the only team I've watched besides the Lakers this preseason. The guy's defense doesn't look any different; he stands out on the perimeter and still doesn't show the defensive instincts and smarts to stay in front of his man. Athletically looks exactly the same as he did at the Olympics.


Your perception is no more a fact than me arguing he looks improved defensively. Often times people see what they want to see, especially if you are coming into it with preconceived ideas.
From what I saw, Lebron is better at moving laterally and has played with more intensity on defense. When he matched up against Pierce for example, he moved well and challenged his shots. Even stripped him down the stretch. Last season, Pierce ate him alive. Those little improvements are what i'm referring to in regards to his defense. 



> Since Artest was voted the best defensive player in the league last season, I fail to see how LeBron becoming an average defender would mean he'd be a better all around player. LeBron would need a corresponding leap in his offensive production for him to reach Artest's level.


In the situation I brought up, I was assuming Lebron would continue to widen the gap offensively, and improve to be average to slightly above average defensively. The question then would be how much of a jump would it take for you to consider the gap closed.

Based on the perception of Lebron I take from your post, I can see why you consider Artest far and away better. In my homerism I may have underestimated Artests defensive advantage, but I still think Lebron should be at least in the discussion of the best SF's in the league.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>R-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


(assuming your post was insinuating that Lebron's stats are better because he plays on a crappy team):

Place Artest on the Cavs, and he still is not averaging the assist numbers Lebron did. His ppg MAY have gone up, although last season was the highest average of his career and he shot 42% to get 18ppg (Lebron shot 42% to get 20.9). His rebounding certainly wouldn't have gone up with guys like Boozer eating up the boards (Cavs were #1 in rebounding last season). 

He might not be able to gamble/pressure as much defensively either without J'Oneal back there to block shots. 

What would have been the big difference in his numbers on the Cavs instead of the Pacers?


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Benedict_Boozer</b>!
> 
> 
> I understand you can't base a comparison solely on head to head stats, but since Artest is the reigning DPOY, the fact that Lebron was able to put up very effective all around numbers against him should be taken into consideration (especially since Artest locked down so many other great players). Additionally I would make the point that matchups can be useful to see the relative strengths and weaknesses of the players in question. Obviously others disagree!
> ...


1) Ah, I see what you're saying about matchups, and there is something to that. I don't put a great deal of stock in individual matchups only because I feel that consistency over the course of a season is important in player evaluations. But point taken.

2) Stackhouse's numbers weren't too far off of Kobe's that year though, yes? And that was my point, that stats can sometimes be very misleading, in fact often times, without proper context. But in LeBron and Artest's case, they're pretty close statistically for good reason, you're right about that. 

3) The difference in FG% and FTPG is small, but the difference is 3.7 shots per game in LeBron's favor, which is huge. That speaks to Artest's efficiency compared to LeBron. So in that sense, they're fairly equal scorers, with LeBron being the more talented scorer. And while I can see LeBron shooting a higher percentage if he took fewer shots last year, he didn't for a reason; because he's not good enough or savvy enough to know that he doesn't need 19 shots a game to score the way he did. That'll come with time, presumably.

4) I understand your stance on LeBron's defense. He's not terrible, but certainly not great. He needs a lot of work, tons of it really, to reach All Defensive status. If anyone can do it it's LeBron, as no one in the league has the physical tools to be a great defender that LeBron has (quickness, speed, length, strength, etc.). It remains to be seen if his lateral quickness improves and, most importantly, if he can ever develop the mentality to dominate defensively (if not consistently, then at least at the right times). 

5) I wasn't too impressed with his Olympic performance, just as I wasn't with Odom, who's on my favorite team. Odom did well, and it was nice, but I took it with a grain of salt because it's inferior competition with different rules and a different style of play, in much fewer minutes no less. But point taken. 

6) I don't think LeBron needs to make an astronomical leap offensively. His rpg and apg are already just fine where they are: 6 and 6 (though his TO's need to go down, especially since he's not seeing anywhere near the defensive attention of the top 5 players in the league yet). Mostly it's his scoring efficiency that needs to improve. Taking 19 shots a game is fine, but he needs to score 25-26 points, not 21 like he did last season. If he averages 26 ppg consistently, improves his defense this year to around the average - OK level, and keeps everything else the same, that would be a major achievement and would get him much closer to Artest's 2004 level. Not quite, but very close. And as you mentioned, while getting teammates involved is very important, defense is probably more important. That's one reason I say Jordan is the GOAT, and Magic is not. 

7) LeBron is definitely, say, a top 5 SF. Impressive for a nearly 20 year old. I have little doubt he'll be the best SF in the league in no time, not because he'll be the GOAT, but because he's very good and because there aren't a lot of great SFs these days. It remains to be seen if he'll ever reach All Time Great level. 

I must say, I feel very embarrassed that you responded so politely even though I was such a a$$ in my original response. My apologies.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

> What would have been the big difference in his numbers on the Cavs instead of the Pacers?


PPG, definitely. Artest probably would have averaged 21 ppg as well, maybe 22 or so. And his assists may have been around 4.5 or so.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Based on last season, Lebron wasnt even top 5. This season, he may contend for the best, but will likely be behind Kirilenko and/or Artest for another year.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Benedict_Boozer</b>!
> 
> 
> What would have been the big difference in his numbers on the Cavs instead of the Pacers?



Talent.


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## AstheFranchiz2K2 (May 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>c_dog</b>!
> nah, artest, ak47, peja, and even marion are all as good or equal lebron, if not better. i think artest/ak47 are the best, and lebron can make a strong case in being a better player than peja and marion, but that makes him 3rd best at best. however, he's extremely versatile and can play the 1/2, is improving and seems to be getting bigger everyday, he's the most *valuable*. him being the best will come with time.:yes:


exactly


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## thefuture2 (May 2, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>zero2hero00</b>!
> reggie miller and brent barry are better at the 3 that LBJ


REGGIE?! Are you serious?? I've never seen a more one-dimensional guard in my life. Career wise, I can see where you are comin from, but I guarantee LBJ will go down a better player than Reggie.


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## JoeD (Sep 2, 2004)

I think Lebron is better than Peja and RJ. But Marion, Artest, Kirilenko are a good deal better than him still.


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## Rollydog (Jan 24, 2004)

> No way in hell Richard Jefferson is better than him, in fact Lebron's biggest game came against Jefferson and the Nets.
> 41pts 13assts 6rebs 3stls 2 TO, come on now Jefferson has never had a game like that in his entire career.


Against Cleveland that game Jefferson put up 35 points on 12-20 from the field, 6 boards, 7 assists. Yes, worse, but not significantly so. I watched that game, and must say, the two were pretty even throughout. Lebron got many more easy baskets, but the fact is, they weren't even gaurding each other. When Kidd was out RJ put up 24/7/6, and he's going to put that up again this season with Kidd out. Lebron certainly has a higher ceiling, but right now I'd say its pretty close between the two.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Ballscientist</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh my Son, how are you doing?


Funniest. Post. Ever.

:rofl:


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>JoeD</b>!
> I think Lebron is better than Peja and RJ. But Marion, Artest, Kirilenko are a good deal better than him still.


Let's take a look at the best SF's out there and their performances to Lebron's from early season. 

Peja maybe tanking, who really knows, but he's no longer in the equation with how he's playing. 

Grant Hill is back but way to early to bring him up as a the best SF out there. Lebron looks like's he's definitely better then Marion. 

Rj is playing well but I think Lebron is playing slightly better with better stats so I nudge him past him as well. 

Artest went off the deep end again so I think we can move Lebron ahead of him too just based on reliablitliy. 

So that leaves AK-47 and I just don't see Utah play enough to make a strong comparison between the two. I think we have a much narrower competition for the best SF title this year so far Ak-47 and Lebron are in the lead. Still can't believe the kid's only 19.


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