# Artest for MVP



## Biscarat (Aug 13, 2004)

"We had the best record and I was the best player on the team. I felt that I should have at least been talked about for it." 

Flame away...


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

well, the pacers were represented in the vote, it was just another pacer they were talking about.


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## HeinzGuderian (Jun 29, 2004)

No wonder they have been shopping him so hard.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

Rodman was right.


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## ToddMacCulloch11 (May 31, 2003)

oh that artest, what will he come up with next.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

I like how you have a source.


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## SamTheMan67 (Jan 4, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> Rodman was right.


yes he was


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>PacersguyUSA</b>!
> I like how you have a source.


http://www.slamonline.com/magazine/features/Artest82/


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Well, he's right.
If Indy trades him they will be fools. Who cares if he's crazy. He's their heart and soul.


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## Ron Mexico (Feb 14, 2004)

hmm no you weren't the on the best team(At the end of the regular season how many people had the Pacers at #1 ) and you weren't the best player


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## Ravnos (Aug 10, 2004)

What did Rodman say about Artest?


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> http://www.slamonline.com/magazine/features/Artest82/


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Ravnos</b>!
> What did Rodman say about Artest?


Basically that Artest let his sudden popularity go to his head and tried to be more of a offensive player when it was his defense that brought him attention in the first place.


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## Vermillion (Mar 23, 2004)

Artest is NOT the best player on his team.

And I'm not a hater, but in my opinion he shouldn't have been on the 3rd-NBA team.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Artest is the best player on his team. And it doesn't matter how many people had the Pacers as their number 1 team at the end of the season, they had the best record. They were the best team.


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Vermillion</b>!
> Artest is NOT the best player on his team.
> 
> And I'm not a hater, but in my opinion he shouldn't have been on the 3rd-NBA team.


Thats what I think too.


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## Spriggan (Mar 23, 2004)

Ron Artest was a better player than Jermaine "43%" O'Neal last season.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!


Nice try but nope, not a "owning." Pen Mengtu has a source, not Biscarat. If you make a thread like this, you need a source.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

The mere suggestion that Artest is as good as Jermaine O'Neal is blasphemy, by the way.


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## JT (Mar 1, 2004)

*expound.*



> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> The mere suggestion that Artest is as good as Jermaine O'Neal is blasphemy, by the way.


Ron Artest is better than Jermaine for the simple fact that he plays for the whole game, instead of putting up his points and rebounds in the first half only. If you need more, ArtestFan will glad expound it to you.


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## DaUnbreakableKinG (Jun 28, 2003)

Ron Artest is a better defensive player than JO but other than that it's not even close.


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## "Matt!" (Jul 24, 2002)

Ron Artests need JO to win DPOY. Without Jermaine's interior presence, Ronron can't play as hard on the perimeter. 

Without JO, Ronron doesn't make the playoffs. Without Ronron, JO doesn't go anywhere in the playoffs. They both need each other.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

Is he even close to being as good as Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan? Not even close. 

Neither is Peja though, and he got some MVP talks. Peja is arguably the best player on a deep team, just like Artest. Pacers were better than the Kings. A lot of folks would take Artest over Peja. 

Givign Peja MVP considerations is pretty ridiculous, so I think giving Artest MVP considerations is equally ridiculous. However, his point about Peja getting them and not him is perfectly valid. He played an equal or bigger role on a better team.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Matt85163</b>!
> Ron Artests need JO to win DPOY. Without Jermaine's interior presence, Ronron can't play as hard on the perimeter.


Actually, Ron Artest was a *great* defender in Chicago, it just takes defensive players longer to get noticed since there isnt any statistics that reflect great defense.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> Is he even close to being as good as Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan? Not even close.
> 
> Neither is Peja though, and he got some MVP talks. Peja is arguably the best player on a deep team, just like Artest. Pacers were better than the Kings. A lot of folks would take Artest over Peja.
> ...


You're mistake is in thinking the MVP award goes to the best player in the NBA, when that's not the case at all. It goes to the most valuable player for that particular season. Peja, at times, looked extremely well. Not as good as Garnett of Duncan, but really good. Better than most of the other guys who got MVP consideration (Kobe, for example), and certainly better than Artest. For that season. Peja's problem was that he wasn't consitent, his great performances happened less towards the end of the season. And he wasn't as good as Duncan and Garnett who were phenomenal all the time.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> You're mistake is in thinking the MVP award goes to the best player in the NBA, when that's not the case at all. It goes to the most valuable player for that particular season. Peja, at times, looked extremely well. Not as good as Garnett of Duncan, but really good. Better than most of the other guys who got MVP consideration (Kobe, for example), and certainly better than Artest. For that season. Peja's problem was that he wasn't consitent, his great performances happened less towards the end of the season. And he wasn't as good as Duncan and Garnett who were phenomenal all the time.


Explain to me how most valuable is different from best player (it cant be that different, since Garnett and Duncan are the best players), then explain how Peja seperated himself in terms of being valuable in comparison to Artest.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> Explain to me how most valuable is different from best player (it cant be that different, since Garnett and Duncan are the best players), then explain how Peja seperated himself in terms of being valuable in comparison to Artest.


Because when you talk about the best player, you're looking at who has the most ability. The MVP award goes to what's done on the basketball court during that season only. So, if Duncan misses 20 games one season due to injury, he still might be the best player, but he's not the MVP.

Last year, Peja was much better than Artest. He was brillant during a large chunk of last year, mostly in the middle of the season. His production trailed off towards the end. He single handedly won a lot of games for Kings, which Artest never did. Artest was a great defensive player, but his offense was not great. He wasn't often the determining factor between a win and a loss.

Again, you're trying to judge players ability, when the MVP award goes only to production, not ability.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

How is Artest worst then Jermaine Oneal?

First the stats

Ron Artest 

18.3 PPG 5.3 RPG 3.7 APG 2.08 SPG .68 BPG .421 FG%

Jermaine Oneal

20.1 PPG 10 RPG 2.1 APG 2.55 BPG .76 SPG .434 FG%

Now the stats don't tell all. There is one main difference between these two players. Ron Artest is a winner, and Jermaine Oneal is a loser. Need proof, well the playoffs are enough for it to me. He challenged a Dwyane Wade dunk and got posterized. After that he just moved out of the way and allowed Wade to just dunk in that type of situation. He was afraid. He was scared, he gave up. You could not say the same thing about Artest. That is why Artest is more valuable he never gives up.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> Because when you talk about the best player, you're looking at who has the most ability. The MVP award goes to what's done on the basketball court during that season only. So, if Duncan misses 20 games one season due to injury, he still might be the best player, but he's not the MVP.
> 
> Last year, Peja was much better than Artest. He was brillant during a large chunk of last year, mostly in the middle of the season. His production trailed off towards the end. *He single handedly won a lot of games for Kings, which Artest never did. Artest was a great defensive player, but his offense was not great. He wasn't often the determining factor between a win and a loss.*
> ...


I understand what MVP is, and I'm not judging a players ability here. I do think Artest is the better player, but where we disagree is in the part I bolded from your post. 

You probably overlooked Artest' impact on winning games because his ability to dominate games on the defensive end doesnt show up in the box scores, while if Peja dominated a game with his offense, it would show up in the box score. 

Again, I dont think either should be in MVP talks, but if Peja is in them, then Artest should be too.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>The Great Twinkee</b>!
> How is Artest worst then Jermaine Oneal?
> 
> First the stats
> ...


Good "proof." Pick the worst play by the player you don't like, and the best play by the player you do like, and call that "proof" that Artest is a "winner" and O'Neal is a "loser."

If you are going to argue that Artest is better than O'Neal, which you would be insane to do so, the playoffs are not a good place to do that. Especially the eastern conference finals. If Artest is such a "winner" and O'Neal is such a "loser" then you would expect Artest to come up big in that series and O'Neal to go into his shell, seeing as how it was the most important series for the Pacers since the 00 finals.

But that's not what happened. Artest had a horrible series. He's usually a lock-down defender, but was useless against Rip who had arguably the second best series by any one player in the playoffs behind Dirk's first round. And he was horrible on offense as well. He tried to be the go-to-guy but repeatedly got shut down by Prince. He got aggrevated and started making more mistakes. He started trying to muscle his way into the lane and started get called for charges. Simply put, he got humiliated on both ends of the court in that series.

O'Neal had a good series prior to his injury. He dominated the post for the first two games, against good defenders. There were times that he just couldn't miss, and he was usually taking his difficult spinning fadeaway. But the Pacers, for what ever reason, didn't feed him the ball enough. It was as bad, if not worse, than what the Lakers did to Shaq in the finals. I'll never understand why they stopped giving O'Neal the ball in that second game. A large part of it had to do with Artest, who wanted to be the hero. He tried to go iso against Prince, and either got blocked, called for a charge, or took a bad shot.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Johnny Mac</b>!
> 
> 
> I understand what MVP is, and I'm not judging a players ability here. I do think Artest is the better player, but where we disagree is in the part I bolded from your post.
> ...


I bolded where I think you continue to make the mistake. It's not about ability. Peja did things last year that he's never done in his career. He upped his PPG by 5 points, without decreasing his FG% and registering his best 3P% of his career. He also was a better defender than he's ever been. Best rebounding numbers of his career. Now, this isn't the MIP award, but things like improvement get considered. Looking at Peja's numbers for the first three months, and he's in the league with Garnett and Duncan for those months. Artest never was like that. He had a better year than the previous ones. His defense was the same. He rarely determined the outcome of the game, single-handedly.

If you want to compare the outcome of games offense vs. defense, you can do that. Peja had a couple of 40 point games. What does Artest need to do to compare to that? How about holding a top scorer under 5 points? Did he ever do that? Maybe once? You can compare Peja's 30 point games to Artest holding top scorers to under 10 a game, which are easier to find, though still more rare than Peja's 30 point games.


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## PacersguyUSA (Sep 1, 2002)

> He single handedly won a lot of games for Kings, which Artest never did.


Now that's just an out an dout lie. In all the games that Jermaine was out (6), Artest won it for us, especially against Orlando on March 26th. He also led us in scoring about 26 times, and you know he was the best defensive player in pretty much all of those games too.


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## Johnny Mac (May 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> I bolded where I think you continue to make the mistake. It's not about ability. Peja did things last year that he's never done in his career. He upped his PPG by 5 points, without decreasing his FG% and registering his best 3P% of his career. He also was a better defender than he's ever been. Best rebounding numbers of his career. Now, this isn't the MIP award, but things like improvement get considered. Looking at Peja's numbers for the first three months, and he's in the league with Garnett and Duncan for those months. Artest never was like that. He had a better year than the previous ones. His defense was the same. He rarely determined the outcome of the game, single-handedly.
> 
> If you want to compare the outcome of games offense vs. defense, you can do that. Peja had a couple of 40 point games. What does Artest need to do to compare to that? How about holding a top scorer under 5 points? Did he ever do that? Maybe once? You can compare Peja's 30 point games to Artest holding top scorers to under 10 a game, which are easier to find, though still more rare than Peja's 30 point games.


You took my post too literal. When I say ability to dominate games, I meant that he did so on more than one occasion. Ron Artest dominated more games than Peja did, and had a more consistent season than Peja, in my opinion. That makes him more worthy of the MVP award, even though I think neither should even be talked about for it.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Pan Mengtu</b>!
> 
> 
> Good "proof." Pick the worst play by the player you don't like, and the best play by the player you do like, and call that "proof" that Artest is a "winner" and O'Neal is a "loser."
> ...


you don't understand I'm talking about the Heat series on. Jermaine Oneal after being dunked on by Wade and then after that he stopped contesting dunks like that by Odom, Wade, Butler etc. And then some in the Pistons series. Not saying he didn't play good, but by backing down he proved that he didn't have the DESIRE to win. You need a player with the desire to win to be truly great. Artest has it, JO doesn't have it quite yet. JO is the more talented player yes but Artest is more valuable to that team. He gives them the toughness that takes them to the next level as a team. Remember the Pacers before the trade, they were .500 club. Artest is the reason why the Pacers are great rather then medioqure. JO took them from what I would say would be a crappy team to a medioqure team. With this said both are EQUALLY important to there team and if Artest is MVP then JO should be co-mvp with them. Both are great players. But its not a good sign when a Defensive guard has an efficiency only 3 points less then a big man since it favors big men.


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