# Thoughts on Bogut's Comments?



## Bartholomew Hunt (Mar 4, 2003)

> "The public's image of NBA players is true," he says. "A lot of them get caught up in the hype and do video clips with rappers and all that crap. They want bling bling all over themselves and drive fast cars. But that's just the way the culture is in America - if you've got it flaunt it and if you don't, you can't."
> 
> Bogut catches himself. He bought some nice wheels recently and he collects old cars. His father was in the motor trade and recalls how, as a youngster, he and his father would give the thumbs up to people driving cool cars.
> 
> ...


http://www.smh.com.au/news/basketba...1181414603971.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2


----------



## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

what a way to generalize Bogut!

though i dont disagree entirely with his comments


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

It's because of rap culture has become showing your money instead of just having money.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

I don't think he's lying about what he has experienced regarding the NBA culture and money.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

We need more white guys damnit. Then everything would be awesome. White guys don't flaunt money EVER! Especially if they are from Europe.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Shut the **** up Bogut you stupid bust. Try becoming a better center than Vlade Divac before you open your mouth and offend a bunch of people better than you.

NBA players worked hard to get rich. They can buy stupid crap.

Ever go into the home of a white CEO? Think he doesn't have paintings on his wall or other useless crap? What kind of car does he drive?


----------



## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

HKF said:


> We need more white guys damnit. Then everything would be awesome. White guys don't flaunt money EVER! Especially if they are from Europe.


Because Bogut said that it's only black people that are like that and no white people are. Yep.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

socco said:


> Because Bogut said that it's only black people that are like that and no white people are. Yep.


He doesnt have to, to know that those comments were directed at black players. How many white players do you see in rap videos, or bling blinging it like he said


----------



## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

im not surprised he said it. if i were him, i'd say it as well.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

socco said:


> Because Bogut said that it's only black people that are like that and no white people are. Yep.


haha you must be one of those people that doesn't think the dress code was targeting black players just b/c it didn't say "black players" in the rule.


----------



## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

HB said:


> He doesnt have to, to know that those comments were directed at black players. How many white players do you see in rap videos, or bling blinging it like he said


HKF was implying that white people do those things. You're implying that white people don't do those things. Which is it?


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

socco said:


> HKF was implying that white people do those things. You're implying that white people don't do those things. Which is it?


Both statements are completely different.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I was saying that white people (athletes or not) flaunt their wealth (especially Europeans if they have it). To say otherwise is ridiculous. What HB was referring to, which obviously proves he's talking about black is rap videos. How many white rappers are there in mainstream rap? Oh a whole 2-3 out of 400. Anyone (who's black anyway) can see through Bogut's crap.


----------



## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

People will probably turn this into a big deal, when it probably shouldn't be. I can agree with his comments to an extent...


----------



## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

It's very stereotypical but porbably right on for the most part. Sure, there are white's who flash the money/make it rain/whatever you want to call it but I'm sure it's more a black thing as that is the mainstream culture of hip-hop. But hey, it's there money and they can do whatever the Hell they want with it. I don't know what I'd do/how to handle it if I started making 10 mill a year all of a sudden either.


----------



## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

Bogut is right. And half this board doesn't want to face the truth. 

I'm not sure if 80% is quite right, but a lot of NBA players go broke after they retire. 

As for where they spend their money, bling is only part of the equation, Bogut mentions cars and girls as well, and we all know both can be expensive. There are some people wearing racist shades who only see the bling and hip-hop that he criticized, looking for a way to sue the guy, guys, just shut up and stop it's so far from racism and you're really reaching here.

Think about it, by saying that fast cars and jewellery are only for blacks, who the hell's being racist?


----------



## Zach (May 11, 2003)

For the most part I understand what he is trying to say and I have to agree with him. However, I would like to think that he is wrong about the amount of players.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

gian said:


> Bogut is right. And half this board doesn't want to face the truth.
> 
> I'm not sure if 80% is quite right, but a lot of NBA players go broke after they retire.
> 
> ...


You missed the point

Also you do understand that a lot of NBA players have businesses on the side. Its not like this guys are just blowing away their money. The very smart ones are set for life. Come to think about it, what NBA player do you know that doesnt have a charity or some type of organization


----------



## BenDavis503 (Apr 11, 2007)

I love Bogut and wish he was on my team (to back up Oden).


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

People don't realize that many of the athletes who choose high powered agents immediately give them options to places like Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Dean Witter and Ersnt and Young to adequately save their money and invest. I know that personally. 

There are a lot of non-athletes who have filed for bankruptcy including Donald Trump three times. How do you know that the athletes go broke? Do you even have any proof?


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Carbo04 said:


> It's very stereotypical but porbably right on for the most part. Sure, there are white's who flash the money/make it rain/whatever you want to call it but I'm sure it's more a black thing as that is the mainstream culture of hip-hop. But hey, it's there money and they can do whatever the Hell they want with it. I don't know what I'd do/how to handle it if I started making 10 mill a year all of a sudden either.


Tons of white people blow their money on stupid **** they don't need. I see it every day at work. People making good money, but spending way beyond their means. White people just happen to (by and large) blow their cash on different things from young black millionaires.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

And half of America's sportswriting departments are probably falling all over themselves to sign this jerk. Generalizations are just dumb.


----------



## JoeD (Sep 2, 2004)

Well it isn't as if he can help but talk about black people indirectly when talking about the nba. 85% black?

He's entitled to his opinion but seems judgmental. People who enjoy their lifestyle aren't necessarily dumb, though some are and maybe that is all he is talking about. 

Not sure if he knows what it could mean when he says "the publics image of NBA players is true". Because some people have a pretty bad image. 

It's best not to speculate.

Anyway I actually found his cultural observations of flaunting wealth in America interesting (not black America). Though he needs to realize that a lot of people just buy it for themselves, not to flaunt...


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

And since when do "a lot of _them_" do music videos? I remember Lamar Odom, Marbury, Shaq and Telfair...that's about it. And Odom was the only guy just posing, the other guys were playing roles and weren't all draped up. 

Bogut needs to just focus on his game before he's Kwame Brown.


----------



## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> Shut the **** up Bogut you stupid bust. Try becoming a better center than Vlade Divac before you open your mouth and offend a bunch of people better than you.
> 
> NBA players worked hard to get rich. They can buy stupid crap.
> 
> Ever go into the home of a white CEO? Think he doesn't have paintings on his wall or other useless crap? What kind of car does he drive?


I love your hatred of Bogut. I can't stand him either. I want to put that first paragraph in my sig.

He himself admits he buys nice cars, but attacks those who buy jewelry. Well who says buying a nice car is better than buying nice jewelry? Who says collecting cars is a better hobby than being in music videos? What an idiot.

They earned the money they can spend it on whatever they want.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Carbo04 said:


> It's very stereotypical but porbably right on for the most part. Sure, there are white's who flash the money/make it rain/whatever you want to call it but I'm sure it's more a black thing as that is the mainstream culture of hip-hop. But hey, it's there money and they can do whatever the Hell they want with it. I don't know what I'd do/how to handle it if I started making 10 mill a year all of a sudden either.


ALthought it may appear that Bustgut was talking about black players (and i'm not saying that he wasn't), it seems to me that he is knocking the rags-to-riches life-style in all that's detrimental to players.

The poorer you have been, the more likely you will act ou when you are swimming in dollars. Something like this. I don't know (being a non-american) if it's something often paired with black players or not, but it makes me wonder... Think about all the streetball legends that ruined their life because once they had the money they got addicted... Think about all the players supporting dozens of "friends" with their bball heck...

I'm not saying that a millionaire basketball player (black or white) should live like he is a aescetist (sp?). What i am saying is that, sometimes, sports figures tend to lose side of the Big Picture.

Like LBJ, for instance. 

It's hard for guys who have little instruction to develop a social conscience. There's not many Dave Bings and Magic Johnsons around. And before you start calling me a racist, i'll say that i don't remember a white basketball player (active or not) providing such a social work as i've seen some black players do.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Carbo04 said:


> It's very stereotypical but porbably right on for the most part. Sure, there are white's who flash the money/make it rain/whatever you want to call it but I'm sure it's more a black thing as that is the mainstream culture of hip-hop.


And god knows all the ************** base their lives on hip hop.

This is kinda funny, it's like when white people who don't hang around any actual black people say "you guys can't complain about the n-word if you're going to use it in hip hop" as if 'hip hop' and 'black people' are interchangeable terms.


----------



## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

essbee said:


> And god knows all the ************** base their lives on hip hop.
> 
> This is kinda funny, it's like when white people who don't hang around any actual black people say "you guys can't complain about the n-word if you're going to use it in hip hop" as if 'hip hop' and 'black people' are interchangeable terms.



You're right. I know a few black people who are really awesome people. I also work with 2 who are really good people. Hip hop and black people are not interchangable terms. There are whites who like rap, and are just bad people. But fact is, going to a High School that was mostly black and in a town where it's pretty even with white and black people I see way more black people who make no effort to break the stereotype of black people that is seen in all the rap videos. All I heard for the most part back in school, and when I go to the ball courts these days is all rap, guns, being 'street' or 'hard', rims, money, bling, *****es, and weed talk. Then of course the constant stream of ***** this and ***** that. It's the mainstream stereotyped rap/hip hop lifestyle to a T.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Carbo04 said:


> You're right. I know a few black people who are really awesome people. I also work with 2 who are really good people. Hip hop and black people are not interchangable terms. There are whites who like rap, and are just bad people. But fact is, going to a High School that was mostly black and in a town where it's pretty even with white and black people I see way more black people who make no effort to break the stereotype of black people that is seen in all the rap videos. All I heard for the most part back in school, and when I go to the ball courts these days is all rap, guns, being 'street' or 'hard', rims, money, bling, *****es, and weed talk. Then of course the constant stream of ***** this and ***** that. It's the mainstream stereotyped rap/hip hop lifestyle to a T.


After watching 'deliver us from evil', news coverage of the catholic priest molestation cover up, a crap load of law and order shows, and reading statistics on the demographics of typical peddies, is it fair to say that white men in general are child molesters?


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

DuMa said:


> im not surprised he said it. if i were him, i'd say it as well.


Considering you called Dr. Martin Luther King a "dead ******" I'm not shocked.

I hope every body that yokes one on Bogut's head (and there will be a lot) yells "bling bling" to his face after he does it.


----------



## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

essbee said:


> After watching 'deliver us from evil', news coverage of the catholic priest molestation cover up, a crap load of law and order shows, and reading statistics on the demographics of typical peddies, is it fair to say that white men in general are child molesters?


No, it's not. And I never said blacks in general are thugs or anything. Like I said, I know alot of very good people who are black. But I also know a ton who fit what Bogut is saying.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Carbo04 said:


> No, it's not. And I never said blacks in general are thugs or anything.


you said that the general behavior of blacks can be seen by watching hip hop, que no?

"It's very stereotypical but porbably right on for the most part. Sure, there are white's who flash the money/make it rain/whatever you want to call it but I'm sure it's more a black thing as that is the mainstream culture of hip-hop."


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

Rock stars of the 80's lived indulgent lifestyles, partied way too much, and did far too many drugs.

Is my statement racist towards white people?


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Charlie Brown said:


> Rock stars of the 80's lived indulgent lifestyles, partied way too much, and did far too many drugs.
> 
> Is my statement racist towards white people?


Eh no. If you ask the average person to describe a typical white person they will describe a guy in a business suit walking alongside wall street, not a long haired rocker. Ask the typical person to describe a black person and they will probably describe the character Bogut speaks of.


----------



## magohaydz (Dec 21, 2005)

Bogut is Australian.....his thoughts are very much in the way of an Aussie. We dont (as a general rule) flaunt our wealth aside from maybe the odd flash car here and there. Sure, alot of people have alot of money over here, but most of the millionaires I know (and I know a few), you wouldnt even guess it. Theres 2 rules as far as common courtesy go over here...

Never ask a woman her age or weight

- and - 

Never ask a man how much money he has/earns.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Charlie Brown said:


> Is my statement racist towards white people?


Such statements can not possibly exist.

As a side note:
If he said anything he was talking **** on Americans in general. Of course his statement at the very beginning of the quote,


> But that's just the way the culture is in America - if you've got it flaunt it and if you don't, you can't."


was completely overlooked.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> Eh no. If you ask the average person to describe a typical white person they will describe a guy in a business suit walking alongside wall street, not a long haired rocker. Ask the typical person to describe a black person and they will probably describe the character Bogut speaks of.


But my statement was based on the culture of 80's rockers, just as Bogut's statements were based on the culture of the NBA.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

Hibachi! said:


> Such statements can not possibly exist


Racism is the belief that one race is inherently better than another.

The idea of racism is not exclusive to any one race.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Charlie Brown said:


> But my statement was based on the culture of 80's rockers, just as Bogut's statements were based on the culture of the NBA.


The bottom line is that he described a negative sterotype of black people. That's why it was racist.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Charlie Brown said:


> Racism is the belief that one race is inherently better than another.
> 
> The idea of racism is not exclusive to any one race.


Not if you go by the sociology definition. It states that the race without power can't possibly be racist.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Charlie Brown said:


> Racism is the belief that one race is inherently better than another.
> 
> The idea of racism is not exclusive to any one race.


Err... I guess I should have put a :wink:


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I honestly don't think Bogut said it in a racist fashion, as in he dislikes black people. Bogut isn't telling people how they should spend their money, he's just saying that he thinks it's better if people stores their wealth and set themselves up when they retire. It's a really simple concept that most of us should agree to, I mean, who wants to be broke after they're 40?

The guy has been in the NBA for a couple years and his words do hold more water than everyone here on this board that's calling bullsh. It's just not many people come out and say these things because honestly if you think about it, if another player goes broke after they stay playing, it does not really affect you personally. It's none of your business and people usually just keep it that way.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Not if you go by the sociology definition. It states that the race without power can't possibly be racist.


Technically correct... Although, there are many sociological definitions. However, if an Asian came up to you and called you a ****** (n word)... Would you not consider him to be racist?


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Hibachi! said:


> Correct... However, if an Asian came up to you and called you a ****** (n word)... Would you not consider him to be racist?


Yes I would consider him racist. I never said I bought the sociological definition.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Yes I would consider him racist. I never said I bought the sociological definition.


Then what was your point by responding to his question with that? He never said "Sociologically speaking." It's pretty obvious that form of the definition is a load of BS. It doesn't make sense that you'd use something as a rebuttal that you don't buy yourself.

BTW, I still find it odd that almost nobody mentioned that he really bagged on American culture. Which of course is stupid in itself, because almost every culture flaunts their wealth.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> The bottom line is that he described a negative sterotype of black people. That's why it was racist.


His assessment is as critical of American's as it is African-American's.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> Not if you go by the sociology definition. It states that the race without power can't possibly be racist.


You are applying the definition of racism in a specific context. 

Racism, at it's core, is a belief.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Charlie Brown said:


> His assessment is as critical of American's as it is African-American's.


You are giving him too much credit. He's already proven he is an idiot that doesn't think before he speaks. Same idiot that criticized one of the league's marquee players before he even played a game. Same idiot that embarased and insulted his fellow country man Luc Longely for no reason. 

Bogut should work on his game, he keeps attracting attention to himself people might finally start being critical of him for being a bust.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Hibachi! said:


> Then what was your point by responding to his question with that? He never said "Sociologically speaking." It's pretty obvious that form of the definition is a load of BS. It doesn't make sense that you'd use something as a rebuttal that you don't buy yourself.
> 
> BTW, I still find it odd that almost nobody mentioned that he really bagged on American culture. Which of course is stupid in itself, because almost every culture flaunts their wealth.


Who said I used it a rebuttal?


----------



## OnePeat (Aug 20, 2004)

Bogut is racist. A comment like that should never be permitted in modern society. He should be fined, or have to apologize, or worse. 

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go watch "White Men Can't Jump."


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

OnePeat said:


> Bogut is racist. A comment like that should never be permitted in modern society. He should be fined, or have to apologize, or worse.
> 
> Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go watch "White Men Can't Jump."


:lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

its true, dont hate on the guy just cuz hes saying it but he is white


----------



## unluckyseventeen (Feb 5, 2006)

It's a generalization, but pretty true. I don't see anything wrong with it because, like he said, that's the culture in America.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

So what charity does Bogut support? Since he is so prudent with his money, does he do anything to help those in need?

At least I have seen guys like Marbury give back to their communities. What has Bogut done?


----------



## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

is the public image of the nba that players spend too much money on chains and cars? because ive never heard anyone really complain about that. or is bogut saying rap videos and jewelery are the same thing as the thug image everyone talks about?


----------



## DaGreat1 (May 18, 2006)

he's angry cuz his aussie girl got tagteamed by my boy earl boykins and mo will.

just shut up and play basketball


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

Pimped Out said:


> is the public image of the nba that players spend too much money on chains and cars? because ive never heard anyone really complain about that. or is bogut saying rap videos and jewelery are the same thing as the thug image everyone talks about?


I think he is referring to the whole MTV Cribs-type culture.


----------



## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

This is hilarious, everyone here calls him a racist yet you guys are throwing "racist statements or insults". What hypocrites. 

So I'm guessing John Amaechi's statement is freaking bogus about how players dance like little girls with their jewelry and trade suits with another. 

You guys only will listen to players that are good OR you will listen to players that are willing to ramp up what you've been learn.

As for Jamal, typical of you to respond to something that you didn't read. He was talking about society and as a NBA culture. Yet you criticize him for being a racist. DID YOU JUST REALIZE that you have PUT a stereotypical statement on that yourself by saying "Bogut is referring to blacks". 

If I said thugs and ghettos are the root evil of all problems, would you immediately trigger that I was talking about blacks if I wasn't? If you did, then YOU yourself have put on a stereotype of certain people before you could even ask the reasoning behind it all.


----------



## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

Jim Brown said something along the lines that Lebron needs to branch out not just money and bling bling. He wants Lebron to branch out in the text of Ali, both socially and politically because he felt that MJ did nothing for the world but to expand what is now the hip hop world of caring about themselves. If bogut had said that, he would be crucify by the likes of many of you. 

Yet this is Jim Brown that is talking to young black famous americans that can make a difference instead of sitting at home and burn their cash. There are problems around the world and obviously he wants young famous black players to help the cause. Is Jim Brown wrong for saying stuff like that?

If he isn't wrong, then is Bogut wrong if he said what Jim Brown said?


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

A lot of you have completely missed the point. Read through the first pages again, where in the world do you come up with this Bogut is a racist talk. Yes Bogut's comments were directed at black players, I for one dont think it was racist. But the way he said it, he makes it sound like this same black players dont do anything good with their money.

And since he is criticizing this same players, what does Bogut himself do with his money? If he is so prudent with his money, what charities does he support? How many people does he help out by providing jobs for them? He just comes off hypocritical IMO


----------



## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

HB, he ALSO admitted to buying cars. He would be a hypocrite if he didn't admit what he buys as well. Most people criticize but doesn't admit to anything.

Its like global warming and they support it but they drive a hummer without admitting.


----------



## Astral (Apr 23, 2007)

Yes, his comments weren't meant to be racist but are.
Yes, he's a hypocrite.
Yes, he should have kept his mouth shut.
Yes, he's mostly right.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Someone needs to photoshop Bogut's head on Robin Hood, as he stops those filthy rich ******* from wearing their bling. 










"Yoinkes and away"


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Astral said:


> *Yes, his comments weren't meant to be racist but are.*
> 
> *Yes, he's mostly right.*


:whofarted

Although I do agree that Bogut is a hypocrite. What the hell has he done?


----------



## socco (Jul 14, 2002)

Jamel Irief said:


> Eh no. If you ask the average person to describe a typical white person they will describe a guy in a business suit walking alongside wall street, not a long haired rocker. Ask the typical person to describe a black person and they will probably describe the character Bogut speaks of.


I'd like to know why you think that is. Because it's true? Because of prejudice?

If it's the latter, wouldn't that make you a racist for thinking that most white people are racist (just as Bogut's statement makes him a racist)?



Astral said:


> Yes, his comments weren't meant to be racist but are.
> 
> Yes, he's mostly right.


How can those two both be the case?


----------



## eymang (Dec 15, 2006)

They get managing money classes too? He's right, it's downright sad to see Scottie Pippen begging teams (if you saw some of the nba.com videos he was literally begging, saying 'please call me Shaq
, it was sad) for a roster spot.

Shut up with the race crap babies, the labeling morons who are the first to point out race. Things are a lot better if you quit labeling people from the outside, it's not that hard to ignore race, but I guess you're all racist since you're always pointing it out. He is saying a majority of NBA players. Throw in the dress code. A lot of the NBA is black, so be it. If a black guy said it you'd all be hailing it, so what does that say about the comment.


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

In Bogut we trust


----------



## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

Like I said, Jamal Ireif already has this stereotype with blacks. Yes I know you might be black but you have already labeled black people in a way and then point out that white people are the ones saying it. Yet you, Jamal Ireif has this point where you are labeling white people as idiots, and no I'm not white either.

Thanks to Michael Jordan, there is no influential afridan americans to speak out and be heard. Do you really think Sharpton and Jesse Jackson has the ears of young audiences? Hows the hip hop group? They haven't done much since the early 90s, yes they probably through some charitable stuff but what happened to the protests where famous black people can move people.

It all started with jordan. Now the hip hop and NBA players can't say crap about the "white man's world" (business) when they are the ones who also in the "white man's world". 

Since bogut is now a racist or a hypocrite because he didn't do diddly squat, I guess average people shouldn't criticize at anyone because they haven't done crap as well. 

Now my question is... WHAT HAVE YOU DONE to serve the community BETTER? If you haven't done anything then why are you criticizing Bogut for knowing something in his NBA culture? If he can't point fingers, you can't point either. You can't have it both ways.


----------



## compsciguy78 (Dec 16, 2002)

Bogut is keeping it real and nobody wants to hear it.

Everybody preaches keep it real until it slaps them in the face.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

If you can criticize people who criticize Bogut, then the cycle continues. I won't stop calling it as I see it. Kind of funny the black people all feel the same way, yet the non-black people immediately go, no racism, bla bla bla. We're looking through different glasses period.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

HKF said:


> If you can criticize people who criticize Bogut, then the cycle continues. I won't stop calling it as I see it. Kind of funny the black people all feel the same way, yet the non-black people immediately go, no racism, bla bla bla. We're looking through different glasses period.


Bogut, a foreigner, is being openly critical of the perceived American culture. 

This black/white debate is being projected by us onto Bogut's comments. The fact that we are arguing over racism is too funny.


----------



## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Charlie Brown said:


> I think he is referring to the whole MTV Cribs-type culture.


bogut is talking about the nba's image problem and the negative perception in his comments. the american public doesnt watch MTV cribs and think "oh dear, how dare they spend their money extravagantly." the nba's image problem comes from seeing guys with bling or rap videos and associating that with a thug stereotype.

being in a rap video isnt even the same thing as spending money.
i also dont believe its a coincidence that bogut mentions jewelry and cars which are associated with the thug image but doesnt talk about living in large houses since living in a mansion isnt closely associated with thug life.


----------



## Astral (Apr 23, 2007)

Hibachi! said:


> :whofarted
> 
> Although I do agree that Bogut is a hypocrite. What the hell has he done?


I meant he's right in that the culture is affecting sports stars in a bad way that many of them blow their money on too many silly things. I'm not someone who will tell you to live this ["right"] way, because that is different for everyone. However, I think if you have the chance to make 5 million for 10 years (average salary/career length?), you should have at least 5 million in the bank when you're 50. Too many of ex-basketball players end up with a million at 40. 

As far as saying this affects mostly black players he's completely wrong. He also should have kept his mouth shut because this will create chemistry problems in the team.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Bogut is definately out of line here, no doubt about it!! Who the hell is he to even tell people what they should or shouldn't be doing with their money in the first place. 

He doesn't know where these guys came from or what type of life-styles they experienced growing up so who is he to judge them. If they want to splurge a little bit, then so be it. I know that i wouldn't want my freinds telling me what I shoud be doin with my money that i work hard to earn... People and cultures are different in there own ways and he needs to realize that. Not everybody is going to be like him! Just becuase he does things one way doesn't make it the right way. He's acting as if hes some kind of humanitarian here or something.

He's basically saying that it's ok to buy and collect cars and wear earings since he does those things, but wearing other jewelry such as chains or grills or anything else that exudes too much of a hip-hop culture is frivolous or makes you "arrogant"?? He said that he doesnt want to be seen as arrogant but that statement is basically inferring that hip-hop culture in itself is arogant, which i just took as plain ignorance and "arragance" on his part. I'm not saying he's a racist but i just think that he was out of line.


----------



## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

Charlie Brown said:


> Bogut, a foreigner, is being openly critical of the perceived American culture.
> 
> This black/white debate is being projected by us onto Bogut's comments. The fact that we are arguing over racism is too funny.


my thoughts exactly.

who the hell brought up the race card anyway?


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

thatsnotgross said:


> Jim Brown said something along the lines that Lebron needs to branch out not just money and bling bling. He wants Lebron to branch out in the text of Ali, both socially and politically because he felt that MJ did nothing for the world but to expand what is now the hip hop world of caring about themselves. If bogut had said that, he would be crucify by the likes of many of you.
> 
> Yet this is Jim Brown that is talking to young black famous americans that can make a difference instead of sitting at home and burn their cash. There are problems around the world and obviously he wants young famous black players to help the cause. Is Jim Brown wrong for saying stuff like that?
> 
> If he isn't wrong, then is Bogut wrong if he said what Jim Brown said?


In 2007 in the United States of America it very much matters who says what and how they say it regarding issues of race. That's just the way things are. It matters. Doesn't do any good to deny it or debate it. Hundreds of years of history have brought us to the point where it very much matters who says what and how. And you can't undo that kind of history.

A white person can say what Jim Brown said, but the range of how they can say it is much narrower. What makes the point of view that Bogut is expressing inherently prejudicial is that it takes a universal issue (blowing a windfall) and it replaces it w/ the external manifestation of the problem linked to a particular subset of the African American culture, making THAT the problem in the discussion and not the the universal thing we are all prone to do.

What makes it racist is that because of how Americans tend to view African American culture, we not only *blame* the culture (instead of the universal human failing), we also are predisposed to believe it for a majority of the particular subculture (rich young black athletes) on the flimsiest of evidence.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

BTW, What is wrong with leagues image?? I dont see how the image of the league is soo bad that the commish and everyone want it to change?? I mean, what would they consider to be the right image.... Why cant they just let people express themselves how they want instead of trying to controll them to be what they want them to be...I mean, things aren't as bad as they make them out to be. 

Oh and it seems like since the "dress code" and other image cleaning efforts have been in effect, the ratings have been getting progessively worse so maybe Stern and others just needs to quit hatin and let the players and fans see what they want to see(meaning we don't need Stern f***ing up the nba any more, with more of his stupid a** laws, ie. the new ball and countless other boneheaded things over the years).


----------



## reno2000 (Aug 23, 2005)

HKF said:


> If you can criticize people who criticize Bogut, then the cycle continues. I won't stop calling it as I see it. *Kind of funny the black people all feel the same way, yet the non-black people immediately go, no racism, bla bla bla.* We're looking through different glasses period.


Wow!! Way to generalise there. You need to be careful how you lump people into stereotypes.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Gio305 said:


> my thoughts exactly.
> 
> who the hell brought up the race card anyway?


black people.

It's funny that when someone makes a valid "race" observation, people quickly jump up and shout "That's Racist!" It's mostly black people that get offended by this, but the fact of the matter is that the average career length is 2.5years. Couple that with all of those hangers-on and you'll be broke pretty quick. Think about it. You have your family clamoring for money, your friends hanging around you waiting for you scraps, agents, managers, accountants all with their hands in the player's pockets, reaching for some cash.... some "cheddar"


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

thatsnotgross said:


> Thanks to Michael Jordan, there is no influential afridan americans to speak out and be heard. Do you really think Sharpton and Jesse Jackson has the ears of young audiences?


FYI there's a guy running for President that might disagree. lol at "influential afridan americans" only existing in the context of Michael Jordan. Clearly you don't know about people like Ron Brown or a guy who owns the Charlotte Bobcats, so be quiet.



> Hows the hip hop group? They haven't done much since the early 90s, yes they probably through some charitable stuff but what happened to the protests where famous black people can move people.


lmao barack obama just led the democractic party in fundraising (although i think a competitive fundraising within a party is tacit consent that elections are bought) for a quarter. Why even bother talking if your perception of blacks is based entirely on what you see on TV?



> It all started with jordan. Now the hip hop and NBA players can't say crap about the "white man's world" (business) when they are the ones who also in the "white man's world".


This is a moronic statement.



> Now my question is... WHAT HAVE YOU DONE to serve the community BETTER? If you haven't done anything then why are you criticizing Bogut for knowing something in his NBA culture? If he can't point fingers, you can't point either. You can't have it both ways.


2nd dumbest statement by someone who has never been involved in anything.

I personally have been involved as a tutor and i know the impact of missing fathers especially ones who have been given longer sentences than white counterparts who have done the same things but have more connections. You clearly have no direct involvement and simply give opinions with no basis in reality.

But when I make a thread talking about difference in perception of white vs. black sports it's good to have threads like this that show how people really think, so thanks.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> black people.
> 
> It's funny that when someone makes a valid "race" observation, people quickly jump up and shout "That's Racist!" It's mostly black people that get offended by this, but the fact of the matter is that the average career length is 2.5years. Couple that with all of those hangers-on and you'll be broke pretty quick. Think about it. You have your family clamoring for money, your friends hanging around you waiting for you scraps, agents, managers, accountants all with their hands in the player's pockets, reaching for some cash.... some "cheddar"


so is the observation that white men are child molesters a "valid" race observation?


----------



## afobisme (Apr 29, 2006)

wow, people who jump to conclusions that bogut is talking smack about black people.. so stupid, but whatever.


----------



## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

the importance of this is even worse than boguts PPG average.
so is my care factor..


----------



## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

Bogut isn't wrong...

he is blunt and not afraid to say what he thinks, which can be offensive, but not necessariy bad.

I'm Australian, although not caucasian. I was recently sent to the U.S through work, which I was very happy and I enjoyed it a lot. And I was able to notice the culture difference straight away, since all we did was visit social places after business. I must say that, yes... it seems that people with money like to flaunt it. Its an effective way to attract the opposite sex, a way to make yourself stand out and boost ego, It sounds like a generalisation but thats what my colleagues and I felt. Mind you it was a university town, but I do feel that the american culture in general embrace the concept of people flaunting what they have and others doesnt. It happens in europe too, I'm sure, I've met plenty of europeans, and Australia is euro in a sense, but culture here is very different, its definitely more humble... you have your exceptions of course, but generally speaking.

Bogut's background is eastern european, and from experience and hate to say it... stereotypes, they are vocal, passionate and can lack tact when it comes to expressing feelings. And Bogut, as he is a european by background who grew up in Australian culture, he definitely knows the difference between the culture and he isn't afraid to say it...

I'm sure he isn't just talking about "black" people, there are plenty of non-blacks who are guilty too, it all boils down to the media and their push to emphasize the stereotypes... its on Television, radio, movies, news papers, magazines... its what drives the industry.


----------



## thebac (Aug 25, 2004)

Gio305 said:


> my thoughts exactly.
> 
> who the hell brought up the race card anyway?


Exactly. Did anyone even read what he said?

Let me quote from the article:

"But that's just the way the culture is in America - if you've got it flaunt it and if you don't, you can't."

and:

"But it's just the culture over there. I would never want my child to be brought up in an environment like that, where if you have money you're supposed to flaunt it and make everyone jealous."

He's saying he doesn't want his children to grow up in the US because he thinks it's too materialistic. Yes, he might be a hypocrite (sure seems like one), but not exactly racist. I read the article in context, and I don't see any racist undertones.


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

Pimped Out said:


> bogut is talking about the nba's image problem and the negative perception in his comments. the american public doesnt watch MTV cribs and think "oh dear, how dare they spend their money extravagantly." the nba's image problem comes from seeing guys with bling or rap videos and associating that with a thug stereotype.
> 
> being in a rap video isnt even the same thing as spending money.
> i also dont believe its a coincidence that bogut mentions jewelry and cars which are associated with the thug image but doesnt talk about living in large houses since living in a mansion isnt closely associated with thug life.





> "But it's just the culture over there. I would never want my child to be brought up in an environment like that, where if you have money you're supposed to flaunt it and make everyone jealous.


It's obvious he is talking about "over there", i.e. America. 

His opinion is shared with much of the world.


----------



## MLKG (Aug 25, 2003)

I think what Bogut said is more an indictment of the culture of excess than it is of black people specifically. It just comes out that way because he's talking about a group of people that are almost entirely black. When he's talking about how 80% of guys go broke and how the smart ones investmest their money, that doesn't mean he's saying black people go broke and white people save their money. He's more likely talking about the differences between guys like Rueben Patterson and Michael Redd.

I think the bigger point here is you have to consider the messanger. I woudln't take seriously anything Bogut says. He has a history of talking out his ***. If there's a fault in what he's saying I think it's one more of ignorance than it is racism.


----------



## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

essbee said:


> FYI there's a guy running for President that might disagree. lol at "influential afridan americans" only existing in the context of Michael Jordan. Clearly you don't know about people like Ron Brown or a guy who owns the Charlotte Bobcats, so be quiet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I love it, esbee telling people to be quiet. So I'm guessing that, if I'm not in the culture I shouldn't be criticizing it? I love it. You want this to be the "American way" yet you have a few rules for it. Please sit your *** down. 

Esbee, my comments was a general statement, I didn't know it was towards *you* but for people to say, what has Bogut done for goodwill and then criticize him for what is the shortcomings of America, yet the people who did criticize, what have they done to help America?

But since it looks like I hurt your feelings, please forgive me great one for I will try to live up the standards you have been living. Please, read my other posts including the ones you mention before ripping me apart or do you have a selective reading problem where you are just looking to go hunt for someone who can misquote a post.

As for the "Afridan", you do realize it was a misspelled work, unless you're also here to be the grammar cop on this board. Most board has one poster that does that, if one cannot possess a good rebuttal.

As for the African-American influential movement, you need to wake up and seriously look around you. *ARE YOU SAYING THAT Robert Johnson is an influential person compared to the likes of Ali and Malcolm X,* because thats who i was referring to. I'm sorry that i misspelled something, yet esbee misread my entire post and just ranted? Most people who rant and become grammar cops are the ones who didn't seriously read my post.

You're comparing RON BROWN to the same men like Martin Luther King Jr.?!?!?!?! Good freaking god, if today's society is comparing guys like Robert Johnson, Barack Obama and Ron Brown to the men that I just posted, then yes, we do have a serious problem. 

You have already put Barack on a pedastal butt he has said nothing significant YET. Please read the sentence carefully, I put "yet" because we have yet to hear him say something that really distinguish him from other candidates. They are all talking political heads right now, until he becomes president and do something, then it is a far cry from what the civil rights leaders have done. Any presidential campaign can talk as much as George Bush, its the walking you have to do before you can even remotely be what the great civil rights leader have done. 

I love it how people get defensive when people actually talk about America's shortcomings. Do you even realize that of what Bogut said could possibly be right?! Or he is just a white man from Aussie who can't criticize America? I still don't even see how this became a black and white thing. To the people who made it a black and white thing has already made it a problem because they stereotype what is said.

Which is why I even mention Jim Brown who has fought for civil rights and is struggling to fight for the next crop of generations to make sure they understand what they did. Do you even remotely understand what is going on right now or do you spew out crap to make sure you look like the king of the boards? The first sentence in this paragraph explains it all, do you understand what I mean by him struggling right now? 

During the civil rights movement and a generation later, it was understandable and right to stand behind what should have been done centuries ago. THIS GENERATION is the single most important generation for the civil rights movement and Jim Brown is struggling with it. Do you know why, Esbee? Because this generation, was not affected by the civil rights movement firsthand and most of their parents did not go through it as well. Their grandparents did and had some understanding of what went on then passed the knowledge to their parents. This is the generation that can seriously further put a halt to the understanding of what went on, most African-Americans will not be treated like what the slaves were treated in past generations, which is why Jim brown is fighting hard to keep it alive. Therefore, leads him to basically BEG Lebron James to be the next LEADER of what black sports figures have done. Or maybe i'm just a non black man who is spewing out crap and being racist. But keep spewing your crap esbee. 

Esbee, you're the last person to talk about discrimination when you were preaching about how wrong gays are. Hypocrite alert. So you're saying that people cannot spew hatred of African Americans but it is okay to spew hatred of homosexuals? Good freaking god. Only you would have your shades on for certain aspect of what you believe in. Way to go.


----------



## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

SeaNet said:


> In 2007 in the United States of America it very much matters who says what and how they say it regarding issues of race. That's just the way things are. It matters. Doesn't do any good to deny it or debate it. Hundreds of years of history have brought us to the point where it very much matters who says what and how. And you can't undo that kind of history.
> 
> A white person can say what Jim Brown said, but the range of how they can say it is much narrower. What makes the point of view that Bogut is expressing inherently prejudicial is that it takes a universal issue (blowing a windfall) and it replaces it w/ the external manifestation of the problem linked to a particular subset of the African American culture, making THAT the problem in the discussion and not the the universal thing we are all prone to do.
> 
> What makes it racist is that because of how Americans tend to view African American culture, we not only *blame* the culture (instead of the universal human failing), we also are predisposed to believe it for a majority of the particular subculture (rich young black athletes) on the flimsiest of evidence.


Thank you seanet for this beautiful post, esbee please read seanet post to try to articulate a post. If you want to rebuttal, rebuttal in a form where there isn't much spewing that goes around.

As for the post, I agree that in today's world it is all about being politically correct. Even today's sports figure cannot criticize without being pointed as the "you're only a sports player, shut up and play". Which is the evidence of what is happening NOW. 

If sports figures just shut up and play when Jackie Robinson played, then it is all right? If Muhammed Ali just shut up and fight, then what would America be if Robinson and Ali didn't stand up to what they believe in? Scary to even think about it. I guess this generation thinks that the equality is done and we can all be quiet and watch our favorite players play.

I disagree that Bogut is directing towards just African American players. I think he is just expressing the shortcomings of America, that this country its all about the bling. The girls are all about the bling, the guys are chasing it. But I don't think there is nothing to be stopped when it comes to it. Most industrial nations are more individualism then collectivism, we are only looking out for our family and thats that. And our family happens to love TVs in every room, a new convertible for their 16 year old daughter and want to be on the next "Super sixteen" show.

Yes you're right, most Americans do view that the African-American culture is the wrong culture. (no posters I am not blaming African Americans for being the wrong culture) There are also a lot of shortcomings to the suburban life of White-American culture as well, it just happens that it is not in front of the TV. I blame both cultures equally, everything must be "quick" and if it is not solved, just jump ship like most people did when the Lakers sucked butt.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

IceMan23and3 said:


> black people.
> 
> It's funny that when someone makes a valid "race" observation, people quickly jump up and shout "That's Racist!" It's mostly black people that get offended by this, but the fact of the matter is that the average career length is 2.5years. Couple that with all of those hangers-on and you'll be broke pretty quick. Think about it. You have your family clamoring for money, your friends hanging around you waiting for you scraps, agents, managers, accountants all with their hands in the player's pockets, reaching for some cash.... some "cheddar"


Alright then, go ahead give us examples of non-blacks that Bogut might have been addressing in this situation. After all it is a general statement right? It shouldn't be too hard for you to come up with examples


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

thatsnotgross said:


> I love it, esbee telling people to be quiet. So I'm guessing that, if I'm not in the culture I shouldn't be criticizing it? I love it. You want this to be the "American way" yet you have a few rules for it. Please sit your *** down.
> 
> Esbee, my comments was a general statement, I didn't know it was towards *you* but for people to say, what has Bogut done for goodwill and then criticize him for what is the shortcomings of America, yet the people who did criticize, what have they done to help America?


This doesn't make any sense. Use punctuation more efficiently and re-type the sentence please.



> As for the African-American influential movement, you need to wake up and seriously look around you. *ARE YOU SAYING THAT Robert Johnson is an influential person compared to the likes of Ali and Malcolm X,* because thats who i was referring to. I'm sorry that i misspelled something, yet esbee misread my entire post and just ranted? Most people who rant and become grammar cops are the ones who didn't seriously read my post.


 Uh, what do you mean "the likes" of Ali? Do you mean like former Secretary of State Colin Powell? I don't understand what you mean by influence. Is there some person who single handedly motivates all white people that I'm supposed to be using for comparison's sake?



> You're comparing RON BROWN to the same men like Martin Luther King Jr.?!?!?!?! Good freaking god, if today's society is comparing guys like Robert Johnson, Barack Obama and Ron Brown to the men that I just posted, then yes, we do have a serious problem.


No, it was said that the era of influential black men was basically ended with Michael Jordan, as if Michael Jordan is some kind of watermark for anything.



> You have already put Barack on a pedastal butt he has said nothing significant YET. Please read the sentence carefully, I put "yet" because we have yet to hear him say something that really distinguish him from other candidates.


Actually his opening speech at the DNC is the entire reason he was thrust into national attention. I don't understand why you're even talking at this point.



> They are all talking political heads right now, until he becomes president and do something, then it is a far cry from what the civil rights leaders have done.


Then, again, Colin Powell would be an example of someone with monumental global influence, or are you simply talking about people who only act in ways that affect blacks?



> Any presidential campaign can talk as much as George Bush, its the walking you have to do before you can even remotely be what the great civil rights leader have done.


I suppose, if you have an incredibly shallow understanding of the civil rights movement. In reality the movement was just as dependent on court cases as it was the speeches of the civil rights leaders that every 4th grader knows. But by all means keep falling back on the "ali and malcolm x" argument. The reality is that the largest progress was made by cases like Brown vs. the Board of Education, and that people like Thurgood Marshall are just as important if not more so than the speech makers you know.



> I love it how people get defensive when people actually talk about America's shortcomings. Do you even realize that of what Bogut said could possibly be right?! Or he is just a white man from Aussie who can't criticize America? I still don't even see how this became a black and white thing. To the people who made it a black and white thing has already made it a problem because they stereotype what is said.


I love how people ignore comments like "i think it's an accurate description of most black guys because I watch MTV sucka free sunday" and people say "where did the race issue come from." No matter how blatant people's comments get on here, there are simply a lot of white people who will rush to the defense of everyone and say it's a "valid racial observation", because it's giving them a chance to say how they really feel. Then they'll act persecuted by political correctness. This is all a bad imitation of the already horrible AM talk radio nonsense that comes across the radio every day. 



> Which is why I even mention Jim Brown who has fought for civil rights and is struggling to fight for the next crop of generations to make sure they understand what they did. Do you even remotely understand what is going on right now or do you spew out crap to make sure you look like the king of the boards? The first sentence in this paragraph explains it all, do you understand what I mean by him struggling right now?


Haha ahahahahaha no you're right, I need you to define the black struggle for me. So tell me, since I'm merely an East oakland/South Vallejo native, and since I go to compton on a regular basis to visit my relatives, what's the black situation in the inner city like? Clearly you have more of a perspective on this topic since you... read about it on the internet.



> THIS GENERATION is the single most important generation for the civil rights movement and Jim Brown is struggling with it.


No its' not, that is simply hyperbole. The most important generation was the one that enacted so much change not only through courts but through non-violent protest, one of the only examples in history of non-violent protest having such a huge effect, especially in a country where the dominating white population went out of their way to write laws (for example the constitution stating specifically that blacks are only 3/5 of a person) that were against them. 



> Do you know why, Esbee? Because this generation, was not affected by the civil rights movement firsthand and most of their parents did not go through it as well.


What generation is that? The civil rights fight lasted through the mid-sixties, which means anybody in their 50's (whose children would be in the 30's and 20's) went through it. Can you provide evidence that most of the parents of today's generation didn't go through it?



> Their grandparents did and had some understanding of what went on then passed the knowledge to their parents.


You clearly don't know much about the reality of the situation. IT sounds like you're just getting this all from wikipedia or something with no real world knowledge of the situation.




> most African-Americans will not be treated like what the slaves were treated in past generations, which is why Jim brown is fighting hard to keep it alive.


I think this was hilarious.



> Therefore, leads him to basically BEG Lebron James to be the next LEADER of what black sports figures have done. Or maybe i'm just a non black man who is spewing out crap and being racist. But keep spewing your crap esbee.


Have you seen the Spike Lee produced doc. on Jim Brown? Jim Brown has been asking black athletes to do these things for decades.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

> Bogut isn't wrong...
> 
> he is blunt and not afraid to say what he thinks, which can be offensive, but not necessariy bad.
> 
> ...


Man, what you guys dont seem to understand is that hip-hop is a culture, it is a movement, and it is predomitely black-latino. When Bogut makes those statements about america, which portrays more-so on the "hip-hop" culture, it seems as if he is pretty much implying that hip-hop is what is wrong with this society, or at least that is what i took as from a black mans perspective. That only shows me that he is the ignorant and arrogant one here. If he thinks that his way is so much better than what others are doing than why doesn't he just do his own thing and not bother demeaning others cause it only puts him in the same lite. 

Yeah he didn't flat out say, "black people are the problem with society", but it doesn't take a genious to figure out that the "flaws" he is so ademently critizing are indeed "black" stereo-types, as much they are wrong. And the way that i read into his statements it didn't seem as if he was tying to be constructive with it either. That is my main issue over his statements. Not exactly what he said, cause it is true to an extent, but just how he said it. He's pretty much saying that the "thug/hip-hop" stereo type is true, so if you buy and wear jewelry, then it's true that your probably an arrogant thug who can care less about anybody and just wants to make others jealous of what you have. Which, if he actually knew anything about the "true" hip-hop culture he talks of(the culture that a majority of these players probably grew up in), it couldn't be farther from the truth. Hip-hop is not only about music, it is also about expression and art and unity as well as trying to be the best you can be, not just that bubble-gum hip hop you see on t.v., which is more of what Bogut is describing.

I mean, im sure alot of players act that way and just want alot of attention but that is just human nature, people are going to be like that anywhere you go, especially at the professional level. But when Bogut stereo-types like that, he is making himself sound like an a**, and I just think he wants more attention for himeself cause his statement have no basis, if he admits to doing similar things.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

thatsnotgross said:


> Jim Brown said something along the lines that Lebron needs to branch out not just money and bling bling. He wants Lebron to branch out in the text of Ali, both socially and politically because he felt that MJ did nothing for the world but to expand what is now the hip hop world of caring about themselves. If bogut had said that, he would be crucify by the likes of many of you.
> 
> Yet this is Jim Brown that is talking to young black famous americans that can make a difference instead of sitting at home and burn their cash. There are problems around the world and obviously he wants young famous black players to help the cause. Is Jim Brown wrong for saying stuff like that?
> 
> If he isn't wrong, then is Bogut wrong if he said what Jim Brown said?



There's a difference between the two. A), Brown has the stature/credibility to criticize Lebron, because he's done a lot as a role model, and B), did he chastise Lebron, or generalize him insultingly? Say he'd be broke in a few years? No. 

Bogut was disrespectful and hypocritical. 

Do as I speak against, not what I do basically. 

He's a closet racist, he should've been just man enough to call out black players like he wanted to. I'm for some star to come out and rip this clown.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Power_Ballin said:


> Man, what you guys dont seem to understand is that hip-hop is a culture, it is a movement, and it is predomitely black-latino. When Bogut makes those statements about america, which portrays more-so on the "hip-hop" culture, it seems as if he is pretty much implying that hip-hop is what is wrong with this society, or at least that is what i took as from a black mans perspective. That only shows me that he is the ignorant and arrogant one here. If he thinks that his way is so much better than what others are doing than why doesn't he just do his own thing and not bother demeaning others cause it only puts him in the same lite.


Moral viewpoints aside, there are some fundamentally wrong things with the hip-hop culture. The most glaring short-coming is the fact that opulance and material possessions are more coveted than family and education. Just watch any rap video, it's all about pouring champagne on some chick's *** while she washes his Ferrari and he has rings, bracelets, necklaces, studded belt buckle, and JEWELRY FOR TEETH! Grillz... Yeah, that **** is cool! What a waste of money! Most of these guys are a walking example of how to waste $50 million! People are brainwashed by this concept that if you can, you should wear $1 million dollars in jewelry. They are the epitome of the adage that states: "A fool and his money are soon parted" Now what is wrong with calling out professional basketball players for what they really are.... rich fools. The same thing can be said with people who win the lottery, they go broke too! It's because they think that they know how to handle their money because they have money!


----------



## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Jamel Irief said:


> The bottom line is that he described a negative sterotype of black people. That's why it was racist.



Did he come out and say black people? Did he directly send his message towards black people? His statement was not racist at all, more steroetypical.

Honestly, calm down.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

IceMan23and3 said:


> Moral viewpoints aside, there are some fundamentally wrong things with the hip-hop culture. The most glaring short-coming is the fact that opulance and material possessions are more coveted than family and education. Just watch any rap video, it's all about pouring champagne on some chick's *** while she washes his Ferrari and he has rings, bracelets, necklaces, studded belt buckle, and JEWELRY FOR TEETH! Grillz... Yeah, that **** is cool! What a waste of money! Most of these guys are a walking example of how to waste $50 million! People are brainwashed by this concept that if you can, you should wear $1 million dollars in jewelry. They are the epitome of the adage that states: "A fool and his money are soon parted" Now what is wrong with calling out professional basketball players for what they really are.... rich fools. The same thing can be said with people who win the lottery, they go broke too! It's because they think that they know how to handle their money because they have money!


So all hiphop videos are about wasting money and objectifying females, gotcha

And do you know that the players you just called rich fools, do a lot for their communities? Who are you to judge them for using their own money to do whatever they please with it. 

What would be a better option, lock it up in a safe and let the money pile?


----------



## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Wow! Just reading through a couple of these posts, some you of really could straighten yourselves out here. Funny how most of you who call racism every other read are the ones making the racist comments offline.


----------



## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

HB said:


> So all hiphop videos are about wasting money and objectifying females, gotcha
> 
> *And do you know that the players you just called rich fools, do a lot for their communities?* Who are you to judge them for using their own money to do whatever they please with it.
> 
> What would be a better option, lock it up in a safe and let the money pile?



They are forced to.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Jizzy said:


> They are forced to.


:laugh: ridiculous. So you are telling me Marbury was forced to dip into his bank account and give a million or so dollars of his OWN money to the victims of Katrina?


----------



## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

HB said:


> :laugh: ridiculous. So you are telling me Marbury was forced to dip into his bank account and give a million or so dollars of his OWN money to the victims of Katrina?



No, some do it out of there own good will but every NBA player with a contract has to do SOME community service.


Do you honestly think most NBA players would want to serve the community if they are not forced to?


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Jizzy said:


> No, some do it out of there own good will but every NBA player with a contract has to do SOME community service.


What basketball player do you know that doesnt have some sort of investment or business? Apart from a few stupid ones, most of these guys probably make good investments with their money


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

HB said:


> So all hiphop videos are about wasting money and objectifying females, gotcha
> 
> And do you know that the players you just called rich fools, do a lot for their communities? Who are you to judge them for using their own money to do whatever they please with it.
> 
> What would be a better option, lock it up in a safe and let the money pile?


You're right... spending your money as it comes to you and not saving it makes Bogut's statement that a lot of players in the NBA are broke or near broke when they retire invalid. You just proved him right. A lot of players are stupid with their money and end up broke. Where is the moral argument? Where is the racism? You just agreed that a lot of athletes and hip hop artists and whoever spend their money on jewelry and other opulent things when they aren't THAT rich to be spending money like that every year for the rest of their lives, but they do so anyways. If I had a working shelf-life of at max 15 years, you'd bet your *** I'd lock it up in a bank and invest the money! That'd be the part about not being a fool with your money. Yes, they do do a lot for their communities, like reading to the children, or building a home for the cameras.... some even donate 5% of their money to charity. It's not so bad when a player like AI buys a 2 million dollar earring, but when a player that is making a fifth of what AI pulls down in BRE, then there is a fundamental problem from a sensibility standpoint. A lot of players end up like MC Hammer... rich for a bit, poor for a lifetime.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Jizzy said:


> *Do you honestly think most NBA players would want to serve the community if they are not forced to?*


Umm yes.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

IceMan23and3 said:


> You're right... spending your money as it comes to you and not saving it makes Bogut's statement that a lot of players in the NBA are broke or near broke when they retire invalid. You just proved him right. A lot of players are stupid with their money and end up broke. Where is the moral argument? Where is the racism? You just agreed that a lot of athletes and hip hop artists and whoever spend their money on jewelry and other opulent things when they aren't THAT rich to be spending money like that every year for the rest of their lives, but they do so anyways. If I had a working shelf-life of at max 15 years, you'd bet your *** I'd lock it up in a bank and invest the money! That'd be the part about not being a fool with your money. Yes, they do do a lot for their communities, like reading to the children, or building a home for the cameras.... some even donate 5% of their money to charity. It's not so bad when a player like AI buys a 2 million dollar earring, but when a player that is making a fifth of what AI pulls down in BRE, then there is a fundamental problem from a sensibility standpoint. A lot of players end up like MC Hammer... rich for a bit, poor for a lifetime.


You are saying a lot of players end up broke, I am saying otherwise. Do you realize a guy like Keon Clark hasnt played NBA basektball in what seems like ages and is living pretty good right now. Why is that so?

Even Mr I Need to Family has a couple of businesses, a pretty popular Auto store chain for that matter


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

HB said:


> You are saying a lot of players end up broke, I am saying otherwise. Do you realize a guy like Keon Clark hasnt played NBA basektball in what seems like ages and is living pretty good right now. Why is that so?
> 
> Even Mr I Need to Family has a couple of businesses, a pretty popular Auto store chain for that matter


 And when I was in high school I was a stock boy with a former NBA player..... he played for 2 seasons and then got cut.


----------



## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Bogut is an idiot. And probably a hypocrite. And apparently really boring.

You only live once. He's in the best years of his life, and he's thinking about how he wants to live when he has no knees, and a gut down to his knees. Bleh.


----------



## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

futuristxen said:


> Bogut is an idiot. And probably a hypocrite. And apparently really boring.
> 
> You only live once. He's in the best years of his life, and he's thinking about how he wants to live when he has no knees, and a gut down to his knees. Bleh.


How much did it hurt when you fell off the bandwagon?


----------



## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I know this is a shock to all of you who have no personal experience in the matter,but young men behave irresponsibly whether they are black or white or whatever and no matter where they come from.Go look up the statistics for the percentage of violent crimes that are committed by young unmarried men.

Yes,rich young men waste their money on frivolous things and it has been that way for all of history.They open their mouths and stupid crap comes out...Big freaking deal.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Diable said:


> I know this is a shock to all of you who have no personal experience in the matter,but young men behave irresponsibly whether they are black or white or whatever and no matter where they come from.Go look up the statistics for the percentage of violent crimes that are committed by young unmarried men.
> 
> Yes,rich young men waste their money on frivolous things and it has been that way for all of history.They open their mouths and stupid crap comes out...Big freaking deal.


Thank you, that's what I was trying to get at... rather poorly... but that was my intended destination on this diatribe of convolutedness. But no race in this equation, just irresponsibility.


----------



## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

I think Bogut is a bit hypocritical going on about collecting cars and playing poker while disagreeing with the consumer culture.

However, it's important to realise the guys on Around the Horn are talking about an article which is _about another article_ that appeared in Australian newspapers three weeks ago. So it's third hand Chinese whispers type stuff we're seeing here - not too hard to twist for their own purposes. 

The original article had a lot less focus on his references to the 'bling bling' culture and much more on the consumer culture draining funds from NBA players at an unsustainable rate.

Let's face facts... the average NBA career is not very long or lucrative (relatively speaking, to NBA 'stars'). Without sound investment and financial knowledge, it's not hard to see how guys could lose all of their money in attempt to maintain their lifestyle after their short NBA careers come to an end. If the statistic of 80% of players going broke is accurate (which I imagine was established during the finance tutorials that the Bucks receive) then it's not too hard to see the guy's point.

If you're in the league for 3 years on the minimum, you had better have another string to your bow...


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Can *anybody* in this thread give substantiated evidence as to what the current situation of current and former NBA players is? 

Can anyone also provide evidence that even 10% of NBA players have been in rap videos? 

Does anybody in this thread personally know a substantial number of NBA players well enough to substantiate the claims you've made about their lifestyles? 

Can anybody explain to me the origin of "bling bling" into popular culture?

Can anybody provide evidence for Bogut's claim of "About 80 per cent of them go broke by the time they retire or come close to it."?


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Can *anybody* in this thread give substantiated evidence as to what the current situation of current and former NBA players is?
> 
> Can anyone also provide evidence that even 10% of NBA players have been in rap videos?
> 
> ...


Not saying that what he was saying wasn't idiotic, just that it wasn't racially intended.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Hibachi! said:


> Not saying that what he was saying wasn't idiotic, just that it wasn't racially intended.


Great. That has nothing to do with my post. Why respond if your reply has nothing to do with my post? I'm not here to get in another pointless, silly debate.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Can *anybody* in this thread give substantiated evidence as to what the current situation of current and former NBA players is?
> 
> Can anyone also provide evidence that even 10% of NBA players have been in rap videos?
> 
> ...




65% of the league has less than 5 years experience. Over 70% with less than 6. So couple that with the average income of $2.8million/year (I subtracted out the top 29 salaries in the NBA from the total earnings by players to get a more normal average) and you have at most a career total of $17 million if you have a 6 year NBA career. This appears to be a lot, but when you subtract taxes, union dues, agent and manager fees, you're left with about 30-40% of that value. So now these players are "living large" off of $5-7 million for the rest of their lives?!? Now subtract out $1million for you mom and dad, another $1 million for family and friends and you're left with $3-5 million for a career. Now that's just enough money to start a business, or buy a house, but definately not enough to life the rest of your life in luxury. Not everyone is making 20 million a season.

The origins of bling-bling date to the early 90s when the New Orleans Rap family the Cash Money Millionaires used it and the rapper Baby Gangsta (BG) used it in a ‘songı’ title. BG recently said that he was surprised that the word has become so popular, adding, “I just wish I’d trademarked it.”

I don't know about the rap thing. But I do know that Tony Parker is in a rap video.


----------



## Bon]{eRz (Feb 23, 2005)

thatsnotgross said:


> This is hilarious, everyone here calls him a racist yet you guys are throwing "racist statements or insults". What hypocrites.
> 
> So I'm guessing John Amaechi's statement is freaking bogus about how players dance like little girls with their jewelry and trade suits with another.
> 
> ...


:clap: :clap: :clap: 

Best post in the entire thread! Every person who reads anything racist in those comments by Bogut is guilty of doing this exact same thing... they are the ones stereotyping black people, not Bogut with anything he was quoted saying. 

If you're going to be defensive about what Bogut's said, then be defensive as an American, not as a black person.


----------



## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

Power_Ballin said:


> Man, what you guys dont seem to understand is that hip-hop is a culture, it is a movement, and it is predomitely black-latino. When Bogut makes those statements about america, which portrays more-so on the "hip-hop" culture, it seems as if he is pretty much implying that hip-hop is what is wrong with this society, or at least that is what i took as from a black mans perspective. That only shows me that he is the ignorant and arrogant one here. If he thinks that his way is so much better than what others are doing than why doesn't he just do his own thing and not bother demeaning others cause it only puts him in the same lite.
> 
> Yeah he didn't flat out say, "black people are the problem with society", but it doesn't take a genious to figure out that the "flaws" he is so ademently critizing are indeed "black" stereo-types, as much they are wrong. And the way that i read into his statements it didn't seem as if he was tying to be constructive with it either. That is my main issue over his statements. Not exactly what he said, cause it is true to an extent, but just how he said it. He's pretty much saying that the "thug/hip-hop" stereo type is true, so if you buy and wear jewelry, then it's true that your probably an arrogant thug who can care less about anybody and just wants to make others jealous of what you have. Which, if he actually knew anything about the "true" hip-hop culture he talks of(the culture that a majority of these players probably grew up in), it couldn't be farther from the truth. Hip-hop is not only about music, it is also about expression and art and unity as well as trying to be the best you can be, not just that bubble-gum hip hop you see on t.v., which is more of what Bogut is describing.
> 
> I mean, im sure alot of players act that way and just want alot of attention but that is just human nature, people are going to be like that anywhere you go, especially at the professional level. But when Bogut stereo-types like that, he is making himself sound like an a**, and I just think he wants more attention for himeself cause his statement have no basis, if he admits to doing similar things.



Hip Hop? I embrace hip hop to all its glory, yes I listen to the music, I dress it, my favourite people in the world are hip hop influenced... money and power flaunting isn't hip hop....

Hip Hop is a way of life, but I definitely do not agree that it revolves around money and power... yes those 2 aspects are mentioned a lot and emphasized a lot in hip hop music, but not all of it.. as most hip hop fans are not rich, they crave to be rich... but who doesnt... what gets me is that hip hop artists fall to the trap of flaunting their wealth, due to the media influencing it... the culture in the U.S is heavily controlled by the media... and thats whats sad....


----------



## Kid Chocolate (Jun 17, 2005)

HB said:


> Do you realize a guy like Keon Clark hasnt played NBA basektball in what seems like ages and is living pretty good right now. Why is that so?



Because you have the misconception that paying $8500+ in child support a month, being a regular drug user, and being arraigned on multiple felonies in the past 2 years is "living pretty good"?


----------



## NewAgeBaller (Jan 8, 2007)

y'all kno its true.

end thread.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

> 65% of the league has less than 5 years experience. Over 70% with less than 6. So couple that with the average income of $2.8million/year (I subtracted out the top 29 salaries in the NBA from the total earnings by players to get a more normal average) and you have at most a career total of $17 million if you have a 6 year NBA career. This appears to be a lot, but when you subtract taxes, union dues, agent and manager fees, you're left with about 30-40% of that value. So now these players are "living large" off of $5-7 million for the rest of their lives?!? Now subtract out $1million for you mom and dad, another $1 million for family and friends and you're left with $3-5 million for a career. Now that's just enough money to start a business, or buy a house, but definately not enough to life the rest of your life in luxury. Not everyone is making 20 million a season.


Assuming this is true, and in comparison to Bogut's comments, what conclusion is fair to draw? Remember that some of these guys have degrees to fall back on. Have some invested their money? Do they have essentials like houses payed off? Following the logic of this article, is $3-5 million for a career "broke or close to it"? 



> The origins of bling-bling date to the early 90s when the New Orleans Rap family the Cash Money Millionaires used it and the rapper Baby Gangsta (BG) used it in a ‘songı’ title. BG recently said that he was surprised that the word has become so popular, adding, “I just wish I’d trademarked it.”


So it was started in the context of black people. Has this effected the way in which it is applied? Is the word racialized, not in the sense that it can only apply to black people, but in that it has racial connotations and implications? Does it have hip-hop implications? 



> I don't know about the rap thing. But I do know that Tony Parker is in a rap video.


That's one. I think I've seen Marbury and Tim Thomas. We've got three. Anyone care to add?


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

NewAgeBaller said:


> y'all kno its true.
> 
> end thread.


That's what we're getting to the bottom of now. Wanna help out or just continue to look foolish? How many basketball players do you know? How much researched have you done on the lifestyles and financial situations of NBA players?


----------



## Kid Chocolate (Jun 17, 2005)

Larry Hughes was in a Nelly video.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Kid Chocolate said:


> Larry Hughes was in a Nelly video.


Four.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

IceMan23and3 said:


> Moral viewpoints aside, there are some fundamentally wrong things with the hip-hop culture. The most glaring short-coming is the fact that opulance and material possessions are more coveted than family and education.


Aight man, and i agree with you here. I pretty much feel the same way. There is an aspect of hip hop that promotes material riches and other things of that nature over everything else. Most of that stuff is found in the Mainstream industry where certain individuals and corporate business are more interested in selling records and ringtones and whatever they can to make a quick dollar, than they are in sending out a positive message. This is what im talking about though. There is so much more to the culture than just what Bogut describes. Like i said, He's talking mmore about that bubble gum hip-hop that you mostly see on t.t. What about the people who actually do talk about family and education and the actual issues in society...?? They just get labled and profiled by ignorant people, such as Bogut, as arrogant people who are all about, like you said, "pouring champagne on some chick's *** while she washes his Ferrari".



> Just watch any rap video, it's all about pouring champagne on some chick's *** while she washes his Ferrari and he has rings, bracelets, necklaces, studded belt buckle, and JEWELRY FOR TEETH! Grillz... Yeah, that **** is cool! What a waste of money! Most of these guys are a walking example of how to waste $50 million! People are brainwashed by this concept that if you can, you should wear $1 million dollars in jewelry. They are the epitome of the adage that states: "A fool and his money are soon parted" Now what is wrong with calling out professional basketball players for what they really are.... rich fools. The same thing can be said with people who win the lottery, they go broke too! It's because they think that they know how to handle their money because they have money!


Alright man, this is where you just sound ignorant. I'v seen plenty of videos that send out positive messages and i've seen plenty that are just all about flaunting your money and showing off what you got. It's a capitalistic society man and flashy diamond rings and cars is what's going to get you noticed, straight up. It's what's going to get you indorsements and ultimately it's what's going to get you paid. Tha's that bubble gum stuff im talking bout though. It's the stuff that people like to watch on t.v. and dance to and is appealing to the eye, but doesn't really have a real message or any substance to it. That is just ONE aspect of what hip hop is though. 

Honestly, a lot of the people that you see in those videos dont even own half the stuff they're showing off. If you want me to break it down for you man, most of it's just a show, it's fake, it's a gimmick. But it get's misinterprated as being real and it forms a false perception of what real hip-hop is. Im talking about people who use hip-hop to send out an actuall intellectual message man. Im talkin bout Common, Nas, Mos Def, Talib Kwali, KRS-One, Kanye West, Lupe Fiasco, man the list goes on and on, but people dont know who they are. Yeah, if i feel like dancing i might put on some of that "pop" stuff but other than that i dont really listen to that stuff. I dont really even consider that stuff as a foundamental element of what true hip-hop is, which i feel is what the public views it to be and that is why i feel Bogut's comments are out of line. People like him who aren't really knowlegdable about the hip-hop culture or what it is, just prefer to focus on the negative aspects of it, as he did, and stereo-type all of hip-hop as negative and demeaning just because some of it is. It's just like how Bogut is characterizing most of the NBA population as arrogant just because some of them are and others just fit that certain stereo-type, so according to Bogut they're most likely arrogant as well. 

Like I said before though, I not going to come out on here and call him a racist, but i definately think his comments were out of line and he should learn about why people do some of the things they do before he jumps to conclusion about their charachter, because what he said imo makes himself come off as arrogant and just straight up ignorant. He just needs to learn that this isnt Austrailia any more, this is America so either a) accept it for what it is and move on, or b) go back home to where you came from and quit b****ing about America.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Kid Chocolate said:


> Because you have the misconception that paying $8500+ in child support a month, being a regular drug user, and being arraigned on multiple felonies in the past 2 years is "living pretty good"?


There was an article about Keon a few months ago, talking about him living very comfortably. A member of some prestigious country clubs, good investments and such. Think about it, if he can regularly pay 8500 a month in child support, do you think he is hurting?


----------



## Kid Chocolate (Jun 17, 2005)

HB said:


> There was an article about Keon a few months ago, talking about him living very comfortably. A member of some prestigious country clubs, good investments and such. Think about it, if he can regularly pay 8500 a month in child support, do you think he is hurting?


Well, I feel like if I made 15 million in 6 years, I'd be doing OK, too...That's a crapload of money.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Assuming this is true, and in comparison to Bogut's comments, what conclusion is fair to draw? Remember that some of these guys have degrees to fall back on. Have some invested their money? Do they have essentials like houses payed off? Following the logic of this article, is $3-5 million for a career "broke or close to it"?


OK. First of all, you have to look at the degrees that most of them graduate with. Secondly, they're probably not in that 80%. A degree in sports education (P.E.) is not a valid financial degree imo. Same with Communications. If you aren't a savvy investor, you'll probably end up broke. So they buy a house.... a nice one... in cash. That's $1-2 million right off the books. Then clothing, jewelry, and a car. That's probably around 200,000. So now it's $2-4million. Of course if you live normally you'll be fine for a while. What he's arguing is that they go out, blow through $500 a night in a club and a few grand at the strip clubs. They blow through tens of thousands of dollars a month and end up spending what they earn before they even retire. One of my friend's dad sold his company for $6million and he just lived off of that since 2000. Well, they had to move last year (they owned the house before he sold the company) because he's broke now.(note: it was just his dad living alone, divorced and the kids had already moved out) So I don't find it hard to believe that players go broke from having $5 million in a 6 year career.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Four.


Shaq, Ron Artest, Nash gets a shout-out.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

IceMan23and3 said:


> Shaq, Ron Artest, Nash gets a shout-out.


Ay, I think you forgot Percy Miller.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

IceMan23and3 said:


> OK. First of all, you have to look at the degrees that most of them graduate with. Secondly, they're probably not in that 80%. A degree in sports education (P.E.) is not a valid financial degree imo. Same with Communications. If you aren't a savvy investor, you'll probably end up broke. So they buy a house.... a nice one... in cash. That's $1-2 million right off the books. Then clothing, jewelry, and a car. That's probably around 200,000. So now it's $2-4million. Of course if you live normally you'll be fine for a while. What he's arguing is that they go out, blow through $500 a night in a club and a few grand at the strip clubs. They blow through tens of thousands of dollars a month and end up spending what they earn before they even retire. One of my friend's dad sold his company for $6million and he just lived off of that since 2000. Well, they had to move last year (they owned the house before he sold the company) because he's broke now.(note: it was just his dad living alone, divorced and the kids had already moved out) So I don't find it hard to believe that players go broke from having $5 million in a 6 year career.



There's an underlying assumption here and in Bogut's comments that former NBA players can't make money after they retire. Don't you think some of these guys have the sense to start a business because they have the capital to do so? I doubt an entire 80% of these former and current players are even associated with hip hop. Not everyone goes out and buys expensive jewlery and cars. You know it and I know it. 

There'll always be fools around when it comes to money, from all walks of life. But to throw a figure up there like 80% seems disturbing, especially considering the reasons he cites. Yet there are plenty of people who agree with him, without any substantial evidence to support the claim. Anytime black people are successful, they get hated on, especially when they haven't achieved that success through the "assimilation" path. It's as simple as that. 

On a side note, Bogut is being a terrible teammate. There's like 13 black dudes on his team. How do you think they'll receive this? He was the number one pick in a deep draft and he hasn't done ****. You think his teammates will be OK with him popping off at the mouth given his current basketball situation? He needs to focus on the game, albeit he's been given a reprieve by the media and fans because he was the next great white hope (and yes, this board was on that train too, as Jamel and I can attest to).


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> There's an underlying assumption here and in Bogut's comments that former NBA players can't make money after they retire. Don't you think some of these guys have the sense to *start a business because they have the capital to do so? I doubt an entire 80% of these former and current players are even associated with hip hop. Not everyone goes out and buys expensive jewlery and cars. You know it and I know it.
> *
> On a side note, Bogut is being a terrible teammate. There's like 13 black dudes on his team. How do you think they'll receive this? He was the number one pick in a deep draft and he hasn't done ****. You think his teammates will be OK with him popping off at the mouth given his current basketball situation? He needs to focus on the game, albeit he's been given a reprieve by the media and fans because he was the next great white hope (and yes, this board was on that train too, as Jamel and I can attest to).


Why do you think he means only black people? I know you think that it's inherrant in what he says, but let's face it. They'll receive it as truth. You think that they haven't seen the same stuff? You do realize that most of these players open restaurants/bars and 70% of bars and restaurants fail within the first 2 years. I learned that in finance class. How is that being a horrible teammate to say that they're gonna be broke if they keep pissing their money away.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

IceMan23and3 said:


> Why do you think he means only black people? I know you think that it's inherrant in what he says, but let's face it. They'll receive it as truth. You think that they haven't seen the same stuff? You do realize that most of these players open restaurants/bars and 70% of bars and restaurants fail within the first 2 years. I learned that in finance class. How is that being a horrible teammate to say that they're gonna be broke if they keep pissing their money away.


He means black males because white males aren't typically associated with hip-hop, rap videos, or chains. 

As for the rest of the post, I think you're kidding. Seriously.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

IceMan23and3 said:


> Why do you think he means only black people? I know you think that it's inherrant in what he says, but let's face it. They'll receive it as truth. *You think that they haven't seen the same stuff? You do realize that most of these players open restaurants/bars and 70% of bars and restaurants fail within the first 2 years. I learned that in finance class. How is that being a horrible teammate to say that they're gonna be broke if they keep pissing their money away.*


Prove this


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

HB said:


> Prove this


Ok, I can't say most, but my most prominant example of NBA players investing their money is in restaurants and bars. Magic owns like 20 restaurants.

60% of restaurants and 85% of bars close within the first 3 years....



Well, anyway, I found an interesting article that counters Bogut's claim but does not negate it.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

IceMan23and3 said:


> Ok, I can't say most, but my most prominant example of NBA players investing their money is in restaurants and bars. Magic owns like 20 restaurants.
> 
> 60% of restaurants and 85% of bars close within the first 3 years....
> 
> ...


If Bogut would have described the situation like how the guy did in that article, then there wouldn't really be a problem. But when he just comes out talking about "rappers" and "bling bling" and say's "The public's got it right - a lot of NBA stars are arrogant and like to spend lots of money and have lots of girlfriends and all that", you cannot honestly tell me that you automatically though he was refering to your average "white" American citizen, as much as that is what you would like to believe. Yeah, he was just "making an observation" but it doesn't really take a genious to figure out what steroetype he was referring to just because he didn't flat out say it. You just gotta read between the lines. 

I will give him the benifit of the doubt, but just admit that he was out of line in the "way" that he made his statements. You cant say he was being constructive and giving a solution to the situation, or even trying to portray it objectively, he was just being ignorant. He probably does have some valadity to his statements but at the same time why does he have to be so vile towards the the hip-hop community.....?? Now the article above brings up the same issue as Bogut, but manages to offer a legitamite solution and it does so objectively.


----------



## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

HKF said:


> We need more white guys damnit. Then everything would be awesome. White guys don't flaunt money EVER! Especially if they are from Europe.


He would probably want guys from Australia and New Zealand.


----------



## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> Considering you called Dr. Martin Luther King a "dead ******" I'm not shocked.
> 
> I hope every body that yokes one on Bogut's head (and there will be a lot) yells "bling bling" to his face after he does it.



Co-signeth.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Power_Ballin said:


> If Bogut would have described the situation like how the guy did in that article, then there wouldn't really be a problem. But when he just comes out talking about "rappers" and "bling bling" and say's "The public's got it right - a lot of NBA stars are arrogant and like to spend lots of money and have lots of girlfriends and all that", you cannot honestly tell me that you automatically though he was refering to your average "white" American citizen, as much as that is what you would like to believe. Yeah, he was just "making an observation" but it doesn't really take a genious to figure out what steroetype he was referring to just because he didn't flat out say it. You just gotta read between the lines.
> 
> I will give him the benifit of the doubt, but just admit that he was out of line in the "way" that he made his statements. You cant say he was being constructive and giving a solution to the situation, or even trying to portray it objectively, he was just being ignorant. He probably does have some valadity to his statements but at the same time why does he have to be so vile towards the the hip-hop community.....?? Now the article above brings up the same issue as Bogut, but manages to offer a legitamite solution and it does so objectively.


Ya know, sometimes stereotypes are right.... they're not right a 100% of the time, but they're not wrong 100% of the time either. I think that in the whole black-American culture is one that alien for most white Americans... and must be especially difficult to understand being a foreigner. It's not racist to say that players that he knows are arrogant *******s that womanize. It's also not racist to say that they waste their money. I don't understand why calling someone out for being those things is racist. You seem to fault him for not giving an analysis as to the cause and solution to these problems are but he's simply identifying the culture of NBA players that he has experienced.


----------



## Air Jordan 23 (Dec 12, 2006)

Charlie Brown said:


> Bogut, a foreigner, is being openly critical of the perceived American culture.
> 
> This black/white debate is being projected by us onto Bogut's comments. The fact that we are arguing over racism is too funny.



No, the funny thing is this scrub has no problem getting paid by this same American culture.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

HKF said:


> We need more white guys damnit. Then everything would be awesome. White guys don't flaunt money EVER! Especially if they are from Europe.


Andrew Bogut's still in the NBA?


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Dp


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

bogut is a foreigner whose exposure to american culture is through tv and the freakin nba. his comments seem entirely consistent with someone viewing america through that narrow and limited prism. he shouldn't be criticized for racism, just ignorance. 

heck, you can take a midwesterner with midwestern values, stick them in a high paying nyc investment bank (but maintain their core values), and their view of nyc, if they were ignorant enough to generalize, would be of money and excess. put them in the entertainment industry, and it's even worse. 

there are cultural differences between cities, states, nations, continents. i don't know enough about austrailian culture to know if the u.s. is more materialistic, but it wouldn't shock me if it were true. but bogut's perspective is going to be that much more skewed, as his exposure is to a pretty unique population. bogut has a big mouth and thinks he knows it all and thinks he has it all figured out.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

IceMan23and3 said:


> Ya know, sometimes stereotypes are right.... they're not right a 100% of the time, but they're not wrong 100% of the time either. I think that in the whole black-American culture is one that alien for most white Americans... and must be especially difficult to understand being a foreigner. It's not racist to say that players that he knows are arrogant *******s that womanize. It's also not racist to say that they waste their money. I don't understand why calling someone out for being those things is racist. You seem to fault him for not giving an analysis as to the cause and solution to these problems are but he's simply identifying the culture of NBA players that he has experienced.


Is that right?? He's just identifying the culture?? So was it not "racist" to compare the majority of them to "rappers", who only care about bling and fast cars. Not all rap is the same, just like not all people are the same and to generalize is just ignorant. What about the good guys....what about the humble guys who willingly give back to their communities and make a difference, but still like to listen to hip-hop, buy jewelry, and drive fancy cars. Does that still make them arrogant?? 

Like i said earlier, what he was saying was true to an extent, i never denied that, but almost everybody who gets money for the first time likes to live it up a bit. Especially if they didn't have much growing up. Bogut is just putting himself on a pedestal and acting like he's too good for the American culture as a whole. Hip-hop is a part of that culture, just as much as anything else is. I never said he was racist i just said he was ignorant and out of line.



> bogut is a foreigner whose exposure to american culture is through tv and the freakin nba. his comments seem entirely consistent with someone viewing america through that narrow and limited prism. he shouldn't be criticized for racism, just ignorance.
> 
> heck, you can take a midwesterner with midwestern values, stick them in a high paying nyc investment bank (but maintain their core values), and their view of nyc, if they were ignorant enough to generalize, would be of money and excess. put them in the entertainment industry, and it's even worse.
> 
> there are cultural differences between cities, states, nations, continents. i don't know enough about austrailian culture to know if the u.s. is more materialistic, but it wouldn't shock me if it were true. but bogut's perspective is going to be that much more skewed, as his exposure is to a pretty unique population. bogut has a big mouth and thinks he knows it all and thinks he has it all figured out.


I couldn't agree more, kflo. :cheers:


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

It's funny how I bet a lot of people here would say Bogut should keep his mouth shut, but when Cam'ron is saying he wouldn't snitch on a serial killer, those same people are giving him props.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

One on One said:


> It's funny how I bet a lot of people here would say Bogut should keep his mouth shut, but when Cam'ron is saying he wouldn't snitch on a serial killer, those same people are giving him props.


And those people supporting Camron would be?


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

One on One said:


> It's funny how I bet a lot of people here would say Bogut should keep his mouth shut, but when Cam'ron is saying he wouldn't snitch on a serial killer, those same people are giving him props.


Really? Who?


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

The point is people will defend their stupid hip hop culture no matter what. It would be impossible for me to know exactly who agrees with Cam'ron.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

One on One said:


> The point is people will defend their stupid hip hop culture no matter what. *It would be impossible for me to know exactly who agrees with Cam'ron*.


So basically you had no point

As per the bolded part, if you dont have proof of such, why even comment on it in the first place.


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

No, the point is people here are just defending their stupid hip hop culture even when it has negative effects. Bogut is right and yes people can buy whatever they want, but one of the most basic concepts of intelligence is to be able to plan for the future.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

One on One said:


> No, the point is people here are just defending their stupid hip hop culture even when it has negative effects. Bogut is right and yes people can buy whatever they want, but one of the most basic concepts of intelligence is to be able to plan for the future.


Stupid hiphop culture? Never mind I wont even try and argue that with you, your statements have already shown how narrow minded you are.


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

If anyone actually thinks Bogut is wrong, go to a hip hop night club and find a team of 12 people to talk about investing with. Good luck.


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

Before you draw conclusions, Tupac is my favorite artist ever.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

One on One said:


> If anyone actually thinks Bogut is wrong, go to a hip hop night club and find a team of 12 people to talk about investing with. Good luck.


Yet another 'wtf' statement, why in the world would I go to a club to go find people to talk to about investment?


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

HB said:


> Yet another stupid statement, why in the world would I go to a club to go find people to talk to about investment.


NBA players, by and large, come from hip hop culture. All of a sudden they get to the NBA, they know how to spend wisely??


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

One on One said:


> NBA players, by and large, come from hip hop culture. All of a sudden they get to the NBA, they know how to spend wisely??


Have you ever heard of Agents?


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

HB said:


> Have you ever heard of Agents?


I don't have more time for this. We all know who we are talking about. We're talking about the wannabe thug gangsters. It's easy to name plenty of players, black and white, who are more than likely upstanding citizens and have planned for their future well. It's just as easy to find those players who never get a 2nd contract and blow all their money. Everyone's asking for exact data. You aren't gonna get it cause bank accounts are private. Use your head. Oh, but that might be stereotyping, sorry.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

One on One said:


> I don't have more time for this. *We all know who we are talking about. We're talking about the wannabe thug gangsters*. It's easy to name plenty of players, black and white, who are more than likely upstanding citizens and have planned for their future well. It's just as easy to find those players who never get a 2nd contract and blow all their money. Everyone's asking for exact data. You aren't gonna get it cause bank accounts are private. Use your head. *Oh, but that might be stereotyping, sorry.*


In addition to your other statements in this thread, I think the writing on the wall is very bold. I am also done arguing this with you on this


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

One on One said:


> The point is people will defend their stupid hip hop culture no matter what. It would be impossible for me to know exactly who agrees with Cam'ron.


If it would be impossible for you to know who agreed with Cam'Ron Why the HELL would you go out of your way to say the same people disagreeing with Bogut agree with Cam'Ron?


As for how you could know, you could go to the hip hop forum and find the thread ABOUT cam'ron's stop snitchin' appearance on 60 minutes and read the responses.

link



This thread is a good example of why Stern feels he has to go out of his way to dress up the nba players in nice suits and make sure to appear to come down really hard on NBA fights(something, again, people didn't want to hear in my thread about how it must be nice to be white in American sports). He's marketing the sport to white people who don't really want to see young black men with all this money and will take every chance they can to take pot shots at "nba culture" and its ignorance while embracing every Brett Favre ******* that comes along in other sports.


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

Boguts comments are pretty standard for foreigners and mainstream Americans. There is some truth in what he is saying, but I really don't think he's ready to fight that battle just yet. 

essbee is right, this is the perception that Stern in trying to change; however, there is nothing that Stern will do that will change the perception, as the makeup of the NBA will always be what it is. Stern should understand that most mainstream fans were never actual fans of the NBA, but instead fans of Magic, Bird and Jordan. Ironically these 3 players IMHO are among 5 greatest players to ever play the game and they just happened to come along at the same time and the NBA benefited from it, but in reality most mainstream fans were never true fans of the NBA game at all. The NBA from the 80’s to the mid 90’s was in it’s glory years and this caused the population to honestly believe that it “Loved this game.” However, most mainstream fans were bamboozled. The current state of the NBA is what it really is after all of the hype settled.


----------



## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

essbee said:


> This thread is a good example of why Stern feels he has to go out of his way to dress up the nba players in nice suits and make sure to appear to come down really hard on NBA fights(something, again, people didn't want to hear in my thread about how it must be nice to be white in American sports). He's marketing the sport to white people who don't really want to see young black men with all this money and will take every chance they can to take pot shots at "nba culture" and its ignorance while embracing every Brett Favre ******* that comes along in other sports.


This also shows Stern's...stupidity.
The NBA is what, 80% black?
If marketing it to a mainstream white audience requires substantial changes (that, thusfar, haven't worked insofar as drawing ANY audience), then why do it?
Maybe he should be applauded for 'cleaning up' the NBA, but maybe it doesn't need cleanin up. 

Boxing is a violent sport, yes?
Enjoyed by various cultures, subcultures n whathavnot..
Would you try and market it to a family-audience?
No, you leave it as it damn well is, and make money from the people who enjoy the 'sport' (I hate boxing)


As for Bogut's comments, as a foreigner I'd just like to say that the 'materialistic view' of America is one I've frequently witnessed. 
If you have it, flaunt it. If you don't, you damnwell better get it!
So yes, maybe Bogut is being ignorant. And obviously, nba players aren't representative of mainstream America (nor are black players all representative of mainstream black America) - mainstream America doesn't have that kind of money.

And ralaw, good point on the MJ/Magic etc comment. 


Demographics who goes to nba games or watches them would be useful, but I don't think there's any way of getting them?


I can't remember which poster was talking about how hip-hop isn't all about bling n *****es, but - true, maybe it isn't. Maybe that's just the 'pop'stuff you see on tv. But that IS the mainstream.
You think fans of hip-hop in Europe have that background, or know about it? I'm sure not everyone in America does either, black or white.
Just because you know hip-hop isn't all about bling, doesn't mean everyone else knows.


As I seem to have lost my point (what little of it there was) I'd like to close by saying i'm a very ignorant young man.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

different_13 said:


> I can't remember which poster was talking about how hip-hop isn't all about bling n *****es, but - true, maybe it isn't. Maybe that's just the 'pop'stuff you see on tv. But that IS the mainstream.
> You think fans of hip-hop in Europe have that background, or know about it? I'm sure not everyone in America does either, black or white.
> Just because you know hip-hop isn't all about bling, doesn't mean everyone else knows.


We had an argument in the hip hop forum where I pointed out that mainstream hip hop was far more diverse when it was less popular. AS it became more popular and a worldwide powerhouse, it became more bafoonish and far more stereotypical. The diversity in mainstream hip hop isn't even close to what it was for example in the early 90's. For god's sake Black Sheep's huge hit was a clearly anti-drug song that showed syringes being crumpled up on screen.

The question then is why it is that the industry would have exploded by becoming less musical, more obsessed with violent beefs, death, etc. IT's a reflection of the audience, so you'd have to ask who it is that embraced hip hop in new, huge numbers and made it take off so much as the quality deteriorated. Hint: it wasn't changed by the buying power of young black males.


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

different_13 said:


> This also shows Stern's...stupidity.
> The NBA is what, 80% black?
> If marketing it to a mainstream white audience requires substantial changes (that, thusfar, haven't worked insofar as drawing ANY audience), then why do it?
> Maybe he should be applauded for 'cleaning up' the NBA, but maybe it doesn't need cleanin up.
> ...



Man understand, when i say "ignorant", i just mean "not knowing", i dont mean it to be offensive. I dont really expect him or anybody to be an expert on hip-hop, but when he just comes out talking about "its true"......or....."the public's got it right" or whatever he said, that just came off as arrogant to me. And he just doesn't know. But that was my point. If he wants to critique something....he should educate himself on what it's all about before running to media and making false conclusion of it. But i understand what your trying to say and agree. And Stern does just need to leave the league as it is, before he does some more crazy s***(otherwise meaning no more new balls, higher rims or any other stupid **** that may come into his head).


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Call me a racist because I was pissed off at these NBA players who were *****ing about having to show up to work not in throwback jerseys or baggy jeans and a beater. With money doesn't come class. These multimillionaires in the NBA may have a different area code, but most of them are still ghetto. I know because I lived next door to the ASU basketball team. I just don't understand why being educated and speaking properly is being "white". I don't understand why being a rapper is more revered than being a businessman. I think Bogut is mainly concerning himself with A)his team and B)their posses. When every third word is ***** **** or **** out of their mouths. They consistently go out and pull ladies at bars or clubs and take them back to the hotel room etc. These stories of philandering are well documented.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

One on One said:


> If anyone actually thinks Bogut is wrong, go to a hip hop night club and find a team of 12 people to talk about investing with. Good luck.


Jesus christ in Havana, try going into a sports bar and finding 12 people to talk intelligently about investing. Or a country & western bar, or a punk club, or a mother****ing Irish pub.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> These multimillionaires in the NBA may have a different area code, but most of them are still ghetto. I know because I lived next door to the ASU basketball team.
> 
> ...
> 
> When every third word is ***** **** or **** out of their mouths.



Welcome to being black in America, because secretly this is what people say behind your backs and only say online because of the relative anonymity. lmao @ "most of the nba is ghetto because i lived next door to the ASU basketball team."


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

IceMan23and3 said:


> *Call me a racist because I was pissed off at these NBA players who were *****ing about having to show up to work not in throwback jerseys or baggy jeans and a beater.* With money doesn't come class. These multimillionaires in the NBA may have a different area code, but most of them are still ghetto. I know because I lived next door to the ASU basketball team. I just don't understand why being educated and speaking properly is being "white". I don't understand why being a rapper is more revered than being a businessman. I think Bogut is mainly concerning himself with A)his team and B)their posses. When every third word is ***** **** or **** out of their mouths. They consistently go out and pull ladies at bars or clubs and take them back to the hotel room etc. These stories of philandering are well documented.


Dude, there job requies them to play BASKETBALL!!! What do you care that they show up to a game in a t-shirt.... ?? Does it really bother you that bad..... ?? They can all show up naked, in dress, or whatever they want for all i care....it really has nothing to do with Basketball. 

And, noone said being educated and speaking properly means your "white", that's just the stereo-typing that we're talking about. Your acting like noone goes to clubs, picks up ladies, or say's a curse word unless they're a rapper, basketball player, or a part of black-america and that's just not true.:no:


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

essbee said:


> Welcome to being black in America, because secretly this is what people say behind your backs and only say online because of the relative anonymity. lmao @ "most of the nba is ghetto because i lived next door to the ASU basketball team."


Sad isnt it. Some of the comments I have read in this thread has been pitiful to say the least.


----------



## different_13 (Aug 30, 2005)

Power_Ballin said:


> Man understand, when i say "ignorant", i just mean "not knowing", i dont mean it to be offensive. I dont really expect him or anybody to be an expert on hip-hop, but when he just comes out talking about "its true"......or....."the public's got it right" or whatever he said, that just came off as arrogant to me. And he just doesn't know. But that was my point. If he wants to critique something....he should educate himself on what it's all about before running to media and making false conclusion of it. But i understand what your trying to say and agree. And Stern does just need to leave the league as it is, before he does some more crazy s***(otherwise meaning no more new balls, higher rims or any other stupid **** that may come into his head).



I didn't (intend to) imply you were being offensive, so I apologise if my words came across that way. And I generally operate under the same meaning of ignorance (lack of knowledge, not malicious stupidity ((though, let's face it, it often turns into the same thing))


And Essbee - obviously, music is always evolving. But it's true that it will become more 'stereotypical' or standardised as time passes, because genres generally find a format that works (which is why much of 1970's Motown sounds the same, etc...)
In this case, it's just unfortunate that what sells is violence and cash, far more so than anti-drugs messages anyway. (I will admit here I occasionally use marijuana and see no big deal about it, but I wouldn't say I glorify it ((especially around (((even))) younger people)).

And in case anyone's wondering: yes, I like brackets.


I know this will happen anyway, but if at some point I make a gross miss-assumption about America, African American culture or hip-hop (etc..), please correct me, cos to be frank, I don't know a whole lot of black people. Growing up in a town in West-Holland and a city in Northern-England really isn't the most culturally diverse of childhoods..


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

HB said:


> Sad isnt it. Some of the comments I have read in this thread has been pitiful to say the least.


A friend of mine's girlfriend is white and her family has disowned her b/c she's dating a black guy. As I told him it's better to know the truth about people than to have them pretend to like you when at best they see you as an exception to the "rules" they have about blacks. I hope black people who read stuff like this get a wakeup call if they needed it.

Make no mistake these are the same people that complain about affirmative action and only address the black people it helps (nevermind all the white women it helps), complain about welfare and only address black people on welfare (white folks and subsidized white industries don't count), the same people that insist it's minorities keeping racism alive (judicial sentencing discrepancies are all in our imaginations), and the same people that complain about negative entertainment values presented in hip hop but then elect Arnold Swarzaneggar as the governor of the richest state in America (commando was a complex political analysis). Because you know.. Ahnold's so well spoken lol.

Chris Rock had a funny rant about all this "white man invents guns that kill thousands of people every year and it's a legal industry, black man SAYS gun in a song and white people have a congressional hearing about it."


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

essbee said:


> Welcome to being black in America, because secretly this is what people say behind your backs and only say online because of the relative anonymity. lmao @ "most of the nba is ghetto because i lived next door to the ASU basketball team."


i'm tired of this. PC pansies thinking that these are "just" stereotypes and have no truth or merit to statements that are derogatory towards people that happen to be of the same race. Yeah, when all they did was drink 40s and get into fights.... yeah. That's pretty much it. Now what makes you think that these behaviors change when they get into the NBA? I like how you reedited my quote 2x's to make it worse. I lived next door to an NCAA Division I basketball team and I am sharing my experiences of that. Does this relate to the NBA? You can infer what you want. IMO, it does. 

Bogut is right. You may not like what he had to say, but his words are accurate and a reflection of his personal feelings based on his experiences in the NBA which are a lot more than anyone else has on these boards.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

essbee said:


> A friend of mine's girlfriend is white and her family has disowned her b/c she's dating a black guy. As I told him it's better to know the truth about people than to have them pretend to like you when at best they see you as an exception to the "rules" they have about blacks. I hope black people who read stuff like this get a wakeup call if they needed it.
> 
> Make no mistake these are the same people that complain about affirmative action and only address the black people it helps (nevermind all the white women it helps), complain about welfare and only address black people on welfare (white folks and subsidized white industries don't count), the same people that insist it's minorities keeping racism alive (judicial sentencing discrepancies are all in our imaginations), and the same people that complain about negative entertainment values presented in hip hop but then elect Arnold Swarzaneggar as the governor of the richest state in America (commando was a complex political analysis). Because you know.. Ahnold's so well spoken lol.
> 
> Chris Rock had a funny rant about all this "white man invents guns that kill thousands of people every year and it's a legal industry, black man SAYS gun in a song and white people have a congressional hearing about it."


Exactly. I have a couple of close white friends I met in college, and they would tell me things acquitances and my other "friends" would say behind black peoples back and for some reason it honestly shocked and hurt me. These are people that would never say anything racist to a black person and even socialize with them, yet they crack ****** jokes when you're not around. 

I respect white people that come out and just say they are racist more. That way we can label them as such and not put them in positions of power. Just like Tim Hardaway with the gay comments.

It's funny, you got a bunch of lilly white people in this thread (I have seen some of their pics in EBB) that have never been victims of racisim constantly defending comments like this as if racisim doesn't exist in this country anymore.


----------



## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

IceMan23and3 said:


> i'm tired of this. PC pansies thinking that these are "just" stereotypes and have no truth or merit to statements that are derogatory towards people that happen to be of the same race. Yeah, when all they did was drink 40s and get into fights.... yeah. That's pretty much it. Now what makes you think that these behaviors change when they get into the NBA? I like how you reedited my quote 2x's to make it worse. I lived next door to an NCAA Division I basketball team and I am sharing my experiences of that. Does this relate to the NBA? You can infer what you want. IMO, it does.
> 
> Bogut is right. You may not like what he had to say, but his words are accurate and a reflection of his personal feelings based on his experiences in the NBA which are a lot more than anyone else has on these boards.


I played D1 basketball, the white kids practically begged us to party with them. 

I live in college apartments right now and last night a bunch of white engineering looking geeks set off fireworks in the parking lot. I walked to my car at 7 in the morning and there were empty beer cans, a old couch in my apartments lawn, and fireworks littered all over the place (including on my car). Stupid ghetto white kids.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

essbee said:


> *A friend of mine's girlfriend is white and her family has disowned her b/c she's dating a black guy. As I told him it's better to know the truth about people than to have them pretend to like you when at best they see you as an exception to the "rules" they have about blacks. I hope black people who read stuff like this get a wakeup call if they needed it.
> *
> Make no mistake these are the same people that complain about affirmative action and only address the black people it helps (nevermind all the white women it helps), complain about welfare and only address black people on welfare (white folks and subsidized white industries don't count), the same people that insist it's minorities keeping racism alive (judicial sentencing discrepancies are all in our imaginations), and the same people that complain about negative entertainment values presented in hip hop but then elect Arnold Swarzaneggar as the governor of the richest state in America (commando was a complex political analysis). Because you know.. Ahnold's so well spoken lol.
> 
> Chris Rock had a funny rant about all this "white man invents guns that kill thousands of people every year and it's a legal industry, black man SAYS gun in a song and white people have a congressional hearing about it."


I personally know a few people that this has happened to. And whats interesting, at least to me, is this same people go around with the clout of being very religious people. How they can live themselves, or go to Church and convince themselves that their daughter dating outside of her race is a bad thing is beyond me


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

One on One said:


> If anyone actually thinks Bogut is wrong, go to a hip hop night club and find a team of 12 people to talk about investing with. Good luck.


Well go to a bar and try and find a team of 2 people who can spell investment. I don't think that rationale works, why would you go to a club, where people go to get inebriated, to talk business?


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

IceMan23and3 said:


> I don't understand why being a rapper is more revered than being a businessman.


So you don't understand why more people wouldn't want to be an entertainer than a "businessman", whatever that is? That's silly.


----------



## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

a lot of rappers *are* businessmen...didn't curtis jackson just make himself a crapload of money through his vitamin water investment???


from slangin crack to making multimillion dollar deals....true entrepreneurship right there...


a lot of people look at rappers and think that what is being represented in songs and tv reflect real life...rappers, like everyone else, are just trying to make a good living....

if *****es and bling is what is selling, then that is what they rap about...quite simple really....just cause a rapper talks about slapping hoes and pimping *****es, doesn't mean they do that crap in real life....

if anyone believes that hip hop represents black people in general...they are just ignorant...

there are many people who do perpetuate these same stereotypes through their actions, but the actions of a few should not condemn the whole...

sorry for ranting...


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

What does a have to do with b? I wasn't debating the merits of what he said, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt in the first place by comparing the two.


----------



## bootstrenf (May 24, 2006)

_Dre_ said:


> What does a have to do with b? I wasn't debating the merits of what he said, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt in the first place by comparing the two.



no no, not debating what you said...wrong quote...hahaha...


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Man, all i have to say is you live and you learn.....


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

White people in this country want American blacks to assimilate but that will never happen. We're just not gonna do it on a large scale. We actually will speak our minds and be who we want to be, no matter how angry it makes whites in the process. 

Why can't you be more like Tiger Woods? You know the respectable blacks? Give me a break.

[Note there are many open minded white people on this site and in the country who say they like you for who you are as a person and don't judge you for being different than they are.]


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

One on One said:


> Before you draw conclusions, Tupac is my favorite artist ever.


And that has nothing to do with anything, if anything it makes you look like a hypocrite/guy who doesn't understand Tupac's message at all.


----------



## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

HKF said:


> White people in this country want American blacks to assimilate but that will never happen. We're just not gonna do it on a large scale. We actually will speak our minds and be who we want to be, no matter how angry it makes whites in the process.
> 
> Why can't you be more like Tiger Woods? You know the respectable blacks? Give me a break.
> 
> [Note there are many open minded white people on this site and in the country who say they like you for who you are as a person and don't judge you for being different than they are.]


:clap:

Thanks for proving that not only whites will make generalizations. Both sides of the argument only embarrass themselves in this thread by implying some sort of racial moral superiority. People need to just admit that it's basic human nature. Whites, blacks, spaniards, mexicans, italians, asians, all forms of humanity will lash out with ignorance.

People keep mentioning America but Bogut isn't even American and that's an important point that most people are ignoring. There's a huge culture shock coming to the U.S. and seeing the ostentatious behavior of Americans. However, I'm not excusing his comments because they're hypocritical and stupid (like all Bogut quotes always are).


----------



## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

White NBA players can't watch Black rappers and rap videos?

I believe him, he's in the parking lots and locker rooms (jewelry).


----------



## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

HKF said:


> White people in this country want American blacks to assimilate but that will never happen. We're just not gonna do it on a large scale. We actually will speak our minds and be who we want to be, no matter how angry it makes whites in the process.
> 
> Why can't you be more like Tiger Woods? You know the respectable blacks? Give me a break.
> 
> [Note there are many open minded white people on this site and in the country who say they like you for who you are as a person and don't judge you for being different than they are.]



You got all of that from Bogut commenting on general NBA players?


----------



## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Face it, the NBA hates black people.


----------



## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

jokeaward said:


> White NBA players can't watch Black rappers and rap videos?
> 
> I believe him, he's in the parking lots and locker rooms (jewelry).


Considering that something like 80% of the NBA is black and that percentage is probably at 99% when you consider jewelry wearing, rap listening NBA players, it's obvious that he is criticizing black "hip-hop culture."

Black people will obviously take offense to having a white person say how stupid their decisions and lifestyle are. I don't know why that should surprise and so many people feign ignorance at the true subject matter.

However, the argument that stupid purchases are racially exclusive is somewhat justified. If you need to defend a rapper dropping 500k on some pink diamond earrings by citing the stupid CEO's that buy solid gold wastebaskets then you are beyond help.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Jamel Irief said:


> I played D1 basketball, the white kids practically begged us to party with them.
> 
> I live in college apartments right now and last night a bunch of white engineering looking geeks set off fireworks in the parking lot. I walked to my car at 7 in the morning and there were empty beer cans, a old couch in my apartments lawn, and fireworks littered all over the place (including on my car). Stupid ghetto white kids.


Those ARE engineering nerds. That's about what they do.


----------



## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

adam said:


> Considering that something like 80% of the NBA is black and that percentage is probably at 99% when you consider jewelry wearing, rap listening NBA players, it's obvious that he is criticizing black "hip-hop culture."
> 
> Black people will obviously take offense to having a white person say how stupid their decisions and lifestyle are. I don't know why that should surprise and so many people feign ignorance at the true subject matter.
> 
> However, the argument that stupid purchases are racially exclusive is somewhat justified. If you need to defend a rapper dropping 500k on some pink diamond earrings by citing the stupid CEO's that buy solid gold wastebaskets then you are beyond help.


Right, 80% are Black. I don't think he's saying the other 20% are automatically different in spending their money that way, a lot of it is just being in the NBA. Maybe he is, but I bet he's just being frank from what he's seen. If Carlos Arroyo or Luke Walton want to get a Rolex and Range Rover and blast hip-hop coming into the arena's parking lot, they can (or whatever it takes to fit into this description Bogut had).

Obviously there's some generalizing, this doesn't apply to all Black players, i.e. Ray Allen, Dwight Howard, Gilbert Arenas (he likes jazz fusion and bluegrass in his VW for all I know).


----------



## Adam (Jan 28, 2003)

jokeaward said:


> Right, 80% are Black. I don't think he's saying the other 20% are automatically different in spending their money that way, a lot of it is just being in the NBA. Maybe he is, but I bet he's just being frank from what he's seen. If Carlos Arroyo or Luke Walton want to get a Rolex and Range Rover and blast hip-hop coming into the arena's parking lot, they can (or whatever it takes to fit into this description Bogut had).
> 
> Obviously there's some generalizing, this doesn't apply to all Black players, i.e. Ray Allen, Dwight Howard, Gilbert Arenas (he likes jazz fusion and bluegrass in his VW for all I know).


It's not a question of who he COULD be talking about. It's a question of who he IS talking about.

I can easily translate his comments for everyone: "Black basketball players are bad with money."

I think that some people are being purposely obtuse by trying to say he could conceivably be referencing white people. We all know who he is talking about.

With that said, some people in this thread think that just pointing out what I just pointed out that they prove racism. His comments are racially insensitive because he has no business making them but that doesn't make his comments racist. I think it's a case of realism more than racism. The question is "are alot of black basketball players bad with money?" A whole lot are.


----------



## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

What's positive is that his experience is with wealthy, and for the most part Black, players. 

What's normative is when he makes the lavish living sound bad and irresponsible. That's his call. From what he says, it doesn't seem racist. Maybe he is, maybe his opinion is a crock. He obviously sees things, and is commenting. What he says can be both true and valid in many cases he has seen, and it can be incomplete in portraying NBA players, a generalization.

Should he be quiet? Maybe. Should he clarify that a lot of NBA players aren't Zach Randolph clones? Yeah.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

One on One said:


> No, the point is people here are just defending their stupid hip hop culture even when it has negative effects. Bogut is right and yes people can buy whatever they want, but one of the most basic concepts of intelligence is to be able to plan for the future.


This isn't true at all. I, for one, was arguing that the prominence of hip-hop is overrated in basketball. For example, braids are associated with hip-hop but black folks have been wearing braids for a very long time, way before hip-hop was around. You wanna answer some of the questions on my list? Do you know the current financial situation of current and former NBA players? No, you don't, so you're basically making horrible assumptions. How many NBA players are in rap videos? A trace amount. You're just running off at the mouth because you have racist perceptions of young black males. Just like Bogut.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

different_13 said:


> I didn't (intend to) imply you were being offensive, so I apologise if my words came across that way. And I generally operate under the same meaning of ignorance (lack of knowledge, not malicious stupidity ((though, let's face it, it often turns into the same thing))
> 
> 
> And Essbee - obviously, music is always evolving. But it's true that it will become more 'stereotypical' or standardised as time passes, because genres generally find a format that works (which is why much of 1970's Motown sounds the same, etc...)
> ...


At least there is some honesty and objectivity in this post. You're a ways ahead of a lot of people in this thread, even if I don't agree with some things you're saying.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Who here knows a substantial number of NBA players? How can you continue to make statements about their spending habits when you aren't even connected to the situation? Wow.


----------



## hogey11 (Aug 30, 2002)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> Who here knows a substantial number of NBA players? How can you continue to make statements about their spending habits when you aren't even connected to the situation? Wow.


Who here knows what Andrew Bogut has seen, and therefore can pass judgement on the comments he has made about his experiences?

I think he overexaggerated the numbers, 100%. 80% of players do not go broke. However, we all need to realize that for every guy making 10 million a year in the NBA, there are 2-3 making less than 2 million. And those players don't usually have 10 year careers either. If you were a 1.5 million a year player, and you started buying chains worth 100K, would you consider that stupid? Of course it is, if your earning window is only 6 years and you'll make 6 million (before taxes) over it. It may sound like a lot, but if you adopt a lifestyle that cannot support you for that much money over the next 30 years, what are they going to do? Not all have business savvy, or even proper educations. They start over with nothing. If certain players in the league end up spending 100k on a stupid chain instead of investing that money, thats a huge chunk and potentially a huge loss. Maybe thats whats happening, and Bogut's calling them on it. He knows what they make, and he sees first-hand what they spend it on.

Maybe this is a comment aimed more towards his team-mates than the NBA in general?


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

hogey11 said:


> Who here knows what Andrew Bogut has seen, and therefore can pass judgement on the comments he has made about his experiences?
> 
> I think he overexaggerated the numbers, 100%. 80% of players do not go broke. However, we all need to realize that for every guy making 10 million a year in the NBA, there are 2-3 making less than 2 million. And those players don't usually have 10 year careers either. If you were a 1.5 million a year player, and you started buying chains worth 100K, would you consider that stupid? Of course it is, if your earning window is only 6 years and you'll make 6 million (before taxes) over it. It may sound like a lot, but if you adopt a lifestyle that cannot support you for that much money over the next 30 years, what are they going to do? Not all have business savvy, or even proper educations. They start over with nothing. If certain players in the league end up spending 100k on a stupid chain instead of investing that money, thats a huge chunk and potentially a huge loss. Maybe thats whats happening, and Bogut's calling them on it. He knows what they make, and he sees first-hand what they spend it on.
> 
> Maybe this is a comment aimed more towards his team-mates than the NBA in general?



If Bogut is throwing crazy numbers out like 80%, I assume that he isn't basing his claims on anything substantial. Again, the underlying assumption here is that young, black males in the NBA are connected to hip-hop and vice versa. In addition, there is an assumption that the majority of these guys cannot manage their money. More people have jumped on this bandwagon than even I thought would. 80% is an astronomical number. At least the financial issues of ex-NFL players is well documented and receives media coverage.


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

Anyone see Through the Fire yesterday? The Sebastian Telfair documentary. As soon as he gets his shoe contract, all he's doing is talking about the house he is gonna buy, the car he got his brother, shopping for a Rolex (I guess he needs a really reliable watch, lol!). I'm all for treating yourself, but look at him now. The whole documentary is just sad to see how his neighborhood thinks making the NBA is the only way to "make it."


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

> Updated: June 26, 2007, 11:14 PM ET
> 
> 
> "WASHINGTON -- Aging NFL retirees told Congress Tuesday that playing professional football left them with broken bodies, brain damage and empty bank accounts. Lawmakers said they may get involved if a better pension and disability system isn't created.
> ...


ESPN article


Looks like a gangsta rapper to me:












> By then, Webster also was dealing with *serious financial problems. Some say he made bad investments, others that he was duped by conniving associates*. There were marital problems. There was a period of homelessness during which he told ESPN he lived out of his car. Later, he lived in a room at the Red Roof Inn in Robinson. Worst of all, there were debilitating health problems.


Mike Webster, one of my dad's favorite football players

Clearly another victim of hip hop, Brian DeMarco:










> One case may be former offensive lineman Brian DeMarco, who came out last week and talked of his inability to hold a job, being homeless and financial problems. DeMarco says he has numerous physical ailments.
> 
> That may be true. But DeMarco is 35 and has done a poor job of running his life after football. *A divorce cost him half of what he had, bad investments seem to have taken the other half.* And now he wants help. Upshaw said that the union had paid DeMarco's rent three times.


http://www.azcentral.com/sports/columns/articles/0618gambo.html


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

Nobody said it was only ghetto players that blow their money. Those two guys you show above probably aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer either.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

More NBA spear chuckery



> Elton Brand Becoming a Hollywood Player
> Friday July 6 8:34 AM ET
> 
> 
> ...


link


----------



## hogey11 (Aug 30, 2002)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> If Bogut is throwing crazy numbers out like 80%, I assume that he isn't basing his claims on anything substantial. Again, the underlying assumption here is that young, black males in the NBA are connected to hip-hop and vice versa. In addition, there is an assumption that the majority of these guys cannot manage their money. More people have jumped on this bandwagon than even I thought would. 80% is an astronomical number. At least the financial issues of ex-NFL players is well documented and receives media coverage.


No, thats not fair. If Bogut was making a comment towards young black people, he would have said it. Now, incidentally, the NBA happens to be filled with 85% of black men. That is not Andrew Bogut's fault, and if you want to reach and insinuate that he was making racial comments, then you are purely looking for a fight.

Again, you cannot say that he is not basing his claims on anything substantial. You are not Andrew Bogut, and you have not seen what he has seen. He has a right to voice what he has experienced. If you read the whole article, you also get to see that Bogut himself has a few guilty pleasures too. He plays poker at casinos, but he plays at the people's tables, instead of the high-stakes tables in the back rooms. He says he enjoys playing with real people, and that it takes some time for them to get over the 7 foot nba player at the table, but after a few hands they're playing with him like anybody else. 

Now, you're probably thinking "So what?" Well it tells us a bit about Bogut, to start. He COULD be playing for $20K buy ins at richer tables, but he doesn't. Why? because he SEEMS to be fiscally responsible. He realizes that while he can get away with it financially, he doesn't, cause its STUPID. This makes me think that he might have some brains in his head, and gives MORE credibility to his claims if indeed he is planning well for his future, and sees all the mistakes those around him are making. 

He never once mentioned Black people. He mentioned the league. You cannot draw the line between racist remarks and his comments, because what else can he say? throw a disclaimer in there that not all the miscreants he sees in the NBA are black people? That would have created even MORE of a stir. He was purely relating what he feels, and what he has seen. The only thing we can fault him for is being a bit brash, a bit young, and for throwing in an over-exaggeration.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that this is not purely a basketball issue. But it IS an issue, and I feel there are a lot of people who are taking this far too personally. Like others have said before, this isn't restricted to young black men. I'm sure if Bogut was on a team full of white guys, he'd be saying the same things, but talking about them blowing money on other things (whatever their interests seem to be... Chris Andersen smoked a lot of weed. Matt Geiger built a MASSIVE party house. White players are irresponsible too, but theres just LESS of them, especially on the Bucks.) This is not a race issue. Its an issue of young players, regardless of race, who grew up with nothing, cannot hold onto their money because they SPEND IT FRIVOLOUSLY. On one hand, fair enough, its their money. On the other, its dumb, and Bogut called it out. I don't see where the problem lies.


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

What the hell does Elton Brand have to do with the gangsta players we are talking about? We are talking about the guys who act like they are on the Cincinnati Bengals!


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

I didnt even know Brand was a co-producer of the movie. Thats big time, I saw the trailer today.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

One on One said:


> What the hell does Elton Brand have to do with the gangsta players we are talking about? We are talking about the guys who act like they are on the Cincinnati Bengals!


According to people who lived next door to the ASU basketball team, that's most of the NBA though right?


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

essbee said:


> According to people who lived next door to the ASU basketball team, that's most of the NBA though right?


Um, you have to ask him. It's not most of the NBA IMO, and especially not Elton Brand!


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

One on One said:


> Um, you have to ask him. It's not most of the NBA IMO, and especially not Elton Brand!


I think it's obvious you're losing track of all the things you and others have said within this thread supporting Andrew Bigut. You should probably stop talking.

"No, the point is people here are just defending their stupid hip hop culture even when it has negative effects. Bogut is right and yes people can buy whatever they want, but one of the most basic concepts of intelligence is to be able to plan for the future."

So let's take the above info about elton brand and see what Ron Artest says in this interview



> Are you the best rapper in the NBA?
> 
> 
> Elton Brand is nice too.. He's on my album rapping some real ****.


link
FYI Elton Brand appears on Ron Artest's hip hop album track list.

Hush Feat. Elton Brand

The song title seems appropriate.


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

No, you are generalizing! Hip hop is a horrible influence on a lot of young black males. There's no question about that. That doesn't mean everyone who listens to hip hop is gonna turn out a worthless thug. Will Smith raps or at least used to and he's far from ghetto.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

One on One said:


> No, you are generalizing!


and then...



> Hip hop is a horrible influence on a lot of young black males.


You can't possibly be this dumb.


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

essbee said:


> and then...
> 
> 
> 
> You can't possibly be this dumb.


You don't think hip hop is a horrible influence on a lot of young black males?

Do you want to disagree with that? 

How is that generalizing? this is typical debate you are doing, you turn to semantics to sidestep the real issues.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

One on One said:


> You don't think hip hop is a horrible influence on a lot of young black males?
> 
> Do you want to disagree with that?
> 
> How is that generalizing? this is typical debate you are doing, you turn to semantics to sidestep the real issues.


Hey, you said semantics. That's a pretty big word and you used it correctly in context. I'm surprised and proud all at the same time.


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

essbee said:


> Hey, you said semantics. That's a pretty big word and you used it correctly in context. I'm surprised and proud all at the same time.



there you go again, congratulations


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

One on One said:


> *You don't think hip hop is a horrible influence on a lot of young black males?*
> 
> Do you want to disagree with that?
> 
> How is that generalizing? this is typical debate you are doing, you turn to semantics to sidestep the real issues.


I'd like you to explain how hiphop is a horrible influence on young black males? Mind you there are shows like 24 and The Unit on prime time television. I am pretty sure I am missing out others, do you think thats a horrible influence on young caucasian males going by your logic


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

One on One said:


> there you go again, congratulations


Congratulations on figuring out how to turn on your computer. Up next: Monkeys type Shakespeare.


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

HB said:


> I'd like you to explain how hiphop is a horrible influence on young black males? Mind you there are shows like 24 and The Unit on prime time television. I am pretty sure I am missing out others, do you think thats a horrible influence on young caucasian males going by your logic


Could you just Google crime statistics by demographics and save me a lot of time? Hmm, but I can see how it would be too sterotypical for you to give hip hop any blame for those statistics.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

One on One said:


> Could you just Google crime statistics by demographics and save me a lot of time? Hmm, but I can see how it would be too sterotypical for you to give hip hop any blame for those statistics.


This is one of the most ridiculous statements you have made. So young black males are the only ones that commit crimes, and hiphop is to blame for that?


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

HB said:


> This is one of the most ridiculous statements you have made. So young black males are the only ones that commit crimes, and hiphop is to blame for that?


Yeah sure they are the only ones, right, whatever. You know what the statistics will say about the inner city and you know that's mostly black.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

One on One said:


> Yeah sure they are the only ones, right, whatever. You know what the statistics will say about the inner city and you know that's mostly black.


The more you write, the more obvious it shows you are either ignorant or just plain racist


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

HB said:


> The more you write, the more obvious it shows you are either ignorant or just plain racist


It's completely obvious you are just in denial.

Have a nice day.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

One on One said:


> Could you just Google crime statistics by demographics and save me a lot of time? Hmm, but I can see how it would be too sterotypical for you to give hip hop any blame for those statistics.


AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

This thread is exactly why I do not normally participate in discussions of race and culture. 

Terminal materialism is bad no matter what the vehicle it is brought to us in. 

Do certain aspects of hip-hop glorify terminal materialism? With out a doubt. Do some segments of professional athletics (and entertainment for that matter)embrace that aspect of hip-hop? Yes. So in that regards, there is truth to Bogut's statements. Now what percentage of NBA players fall into that segment, neither you, or I, or even Bogut, can really say. The 80% is a number just thrown out by Bogut, and that really is his biggest mistake.

However, to ignore the level of terminal materialism in the United States, which is what Bogut was addressing, would be foolish.

To make this a race issue, is counterproductive.


----------



## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

I think he has a point. Some of these players are definitly to crazy with their money, and with alot of them not finishing school, they can end up broke, than again it's their money, and they can do whatever they want with it. 

...and stop the Bogut bashing, it's not like he's a scrub, saying this, he's a respectable NBA player, so i'd take it more seriously.


----------



## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

One on One said:


> Could you just Google crime statistics by demographics and save me a lot of time? Hmm, but I can see how it would be too sterotypical for you to give hip hop any blame for those statistics.



stats are ****! Look at people with personal experiences, theres been many instances where a white has start alot of the violence. In fact, just a couple of months ago, my school got a call from a bunch of KKK guys, saying they were gonna go to our school, and have a shootout with us. it's not just whites, it black, hispanic, etc. No one race should be blames for the crime around here.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> And that has nothing to do with anything, if anything it makes you look like a hypocrite/guy who doesn't understand Tupac's message at all.


If anything what it makes him look like is one of those idiots that preface some bit of ignorance with, "Look, I'm not racist, some of my best friends are {insert name of minority that he's just called lazy, ignorant, and dishonest here}..."


----------



## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

Power_Ballin said:


> Bogut is definately out of line here, no doubt about it!! Who the hell is he to even tell people what they should or shouldn't be doing with their money in the first place.
> 
> He doesn't know where these guys came from or what type of life-styles they experienced growing up so who is he to judge them. If they want to splurge a little bit, then so be it. I know that i wouldn't want my freinds telling me what I shoud be doin with my money that i work hard to earn... People and cultures are different in there own ways and he needs to realize that. Not everybody is going to be like him! Just becuase he does things one way doesn't make it the right way. He's acting as if hes some kind of humanitarian here or something.
> 
> He's basically saying that it's ok to buy and collect cars and wear earings since he does those things, but wearing other jewelry such as chains or grills or anything else that exudes too much of a hip-hop culture is frivolous or makes you "arrogant"?? He said that he doesnt want to be seen as arrogant but that statement is basically inferring that hip-hop culture in itself is arogant, which i just took as plain ignorance and "arragance" on his part. I'm not saying he's a racist but i just think that he was out of line.


your right...he might have just f***** up his teams chemistry and trust...and by the way,before hip hop became about chains,it was about showing "sucka emceez" why you we're better than them, and it was all love. but then you had N.W.A and groups like Public Enemy that was like the black man's news, and let everyone in the world know what the n****z in south central los angeles (where im from, i live, and proud of it) and new york we're dealing with...then the suit and ties got a hold of it, and now you got mcdonalds "lovin it". hip hop turned into a cash cow for whites and jews after N.W.A. hit, and like almost every other form of entertainment its been corrupted by greedy m*****f*****z...

"speak about what you know about or go about yo' biz" -vada 

if bogut would have just told us how he had been organizing the " Million Mouse March" annualy in australia, we would be talking about how much of a humanitarian or rodentarian he is...what most of you don't realize is that biggotry is not hereditary. no one is born a racist. it is taught by fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, uncles, aunts,grandparents teachers, life experiance, dog's, cat's, e.t.c...if hitler was an orphan adopted by jews and shown love by jews he wouldn't have killed so many of them...

bottom line...bogut grew up idolizing mick dundee, schwartzn*****, and no doubt the homie adolf. he must have forgot (or had no idea) that most of us struggled(see: "slavery") to get to where we're at...if you don't know what its like to walk to the store and be interregated or pulled over cause your black or mexican, then i can't expect him (or you) to understand what its like to buy nice jewlery cause you can afford to. (personaly me, im an artist and i don't mind chains, but you don't have to talk about them in every song. that ain't hip hop)...you have to look at the big picture. its not an attack on the american culture cause blacks aren't really considerd americans unless we are willing to die in a war...like mobley would say,"it is what it is." i wan't rap back to the way it used to be to shut you chumps up. yaw look at rappers now as the ambassadors of rap. they just puppets in the back pocket of the government used to keep poople in the dark on all of the mis-information on the news...and then when the aliens bust out like transformers on that a**, (that movie is sick)they'll be like: "Damn cuz, we been ****in up." now instead of calling hoe's on your sidekick, yo' sidekick is kickin' yo' a**...i tried to stay outta this but...bogut and some of yaw said some racist s***...vada


----------



## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

One on One said:


> No, you are generalizing! Hip hop is a horrible influence on a lot of young black males. There's no question about that. That doesn't mean everyone who listens to hip hop is gonna turn out a worthless thug. Will Smith raps or at least used to and he's far from ghetto.



HA! Does this sound like a *RAP* song, that would be a bad influence to kids.

<object width="300" height="80"><param name="movie" value="http://media.imeem.com/m/ZndMWVavsr/aus=false/"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://media.imeem.com/m/ZndMWVavsr/aus=false/" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="300" height="80" wmode="transparent"></embed></object>


----------



## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> black people.
> 
> It's funny that when someone makes a valid "race" observation, people quickly jump up and shout "That's Racist!" It's mostly black people that get offended by this, but the fact of the matter is that the average career length is 2.5years. Couple that with all of those hangers-on and you'll be broke pretty quick. Think about it. You have your family clamoring for money, your friends hanging around you waiting for you scraps, agents, managers, accountants all with their hands in the player's pockets, reaching for some cash.... some "cheddar"


it's funny?
why wouldn't we get offended by that? you people f***** up the race relations in this country a long time ago to keep your so called "power".

so what was the average career length of a slave? couple that with all the hangings rapings, murders, free labor etc... i'm sure that you could get rich pretty quick...think about it...you got the n****z workin the feild, the n****z building cities and schools, and you got the n**** b*****z raisin' yo' kids and you and your wife's kids...plus you can beat and trade a n**** if he ain't a team player...some "cheddar"...vada


----------



## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

MR. VADA said:


> why wouldn't we get offended by that? *you people* f***** up the race relations in this country a long time ago to keep your so called "power".



hold up! You people, what you mean you people?!


----------



## hogey11 (Aug 30, 2002)

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> HA! Does this sound like a *RAP* song, that would be a bad influence to kids.
> 
> <object width="300" height="80"><param name="movie" value="http://media.imeem.com/m/ZndMWVavsr/aus=false/"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://media.imeem.com/m/ZndMWVavsr/aus=false/" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="300" height="80" wmode="transparent"></embed></object>


No, it doesn't sound like a bad song that would influence young kids. 

HOWEVER, it features an artist that DOES influence kids in a very bad way. I know that when I like an artist or singer, I tend to look them up, find more about them, and so on.

This is from the wikipedia on Akon:



> In late 2005, his long time friend and manager Robert Montanez, who Akon referred to as a brother, was killed in a drive by shooting; the album Konvicted is dedicated to him. Akon was also in the car and was shot in the shoulder, however he made a full recovery. He is a Muslim, and is a believer and practitioner of polygamy.[19][7] He first disclosed it on a radio program saying, "I really don’t bite my tongue for anybody and I always felt like if you’re going to be real, you got to be truthful all the way around the board. Lies only make things worse. But it got to a point where my coming out like that ended up being a mistake."[20] He drives an orange Lamborghini Gallardo.[7] He also has his own charity for underprivileged children in Africa called Konfidence Foundation.[21] Akon also owns a diamond mine in South Africa and denies the existence of conflict diamonds saying, "I don't even believe in conflict diamonds. That's just a movie. Think about it. Ain't nobody thought about nothing about no conflict diamonds until the movie came out."[22] He also had a previous occupation as a drug dealer but states that he has never used drugs. He also said that in spite of his previous criminal history, he has turned his life around, as sung in "Tired Of Runnin'". In 2006, he ventured to Africa to play a concert in Dar Es Salaam, Tanzania [23] In the May 7, 2007 edition of Us Weekly, page 85, Akon admits to owning over 4,000 pairs of sneakers.


Now, before everyone gets all up in arms, think about this. We are lionizing a guy who has married multiple women simultaneously (and is unapologetic), owns a diamond mine in South Africa, DENIES the existence of blood diamonds, and used to be a drug dealer, while trying to claim he has never done drugs (how'd get get involved in the first place then? some guy walked up to him and said "hey man, wanna sell some crack for a living?!?" CMON!)

Why are we giving this guy the time of day? Is this a role model for the youth of today? Look at the lyrics to "Dont Matter", and put them in context with the views that he practices:



> Nobody wanna see us together
> But it don't matter no
> Cause I got you babe
> Nobody wanna see us together
> ...


Hmmm nobody wants to see him with this woman. Why? cause he ALREADY HAS 3 WIVES. The first verse is him apologizing for lying to her to get on "her side", whilst continually mentioning how many women are coming after him at all times. Then he tells her he had secrets too, but its all good cause he loves her sooooooooooo much.

Then the second verse drops, and he goes to a self-deprecating slant where he says all these women who are trying to get with him are actually just trying to mess with her, and that he loves her, and they know that, but he wants her to know that. 

WHAT IS THIS CRAP?!? why are we propagating this S%#^?!? 

And, to finish, i'm not generalizing. There are MANY great rappers who do not fall into this quandary. Mos Def, Common, K-os, and i'm sure there are many more that I can't name first hand. The problem is that they don't sell as well. Lets get serious: The majority of POPULAR hip-hop is completely counter-productive. Name me one thing that 50 cent has done to make this world a better place, after taking into consideration all the things he has done to do the opposite. (and don't drag a charity that accounts for 1% or less of his earnings as an example. its a joke, and done purely to sell more records.)


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Haha 1993-era Ice Cube would have a field day with this thread.


----------



## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

Power_Ballin said:


> why does he have to be so vile towards the the hip-hop community.....??
> 
> cause he plays for the bucks...vada


----------



## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

One on One said:


> The point is people will defend their stupid hip hop culture no matter what. It would be impossible for me to know exactly who agrees with Cam'ron.


just like you defend the little rock music that we invented...oh, and f*** camron...vada


----------



## wightnoise (Oct 9, 2003)

Some people are too defensive. Bill Cosby and Charles Barkley agree w/Bogut.


----------



## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

One on One said:


> No, the point is people here are just defending their stupid hip hop culture even when it has negative effects. Bogut is right and yes people can buy whatever they want, but one of the most basic concepts of intelligence is to be able to plan for the future.


so its cool to be a doped up, long-haired, big lipped rocker...vada


----------



## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

One on One said:


> Before you draw conclusions, Tupac is my favorite artist ever.


No personal attacks- HB


----------



## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

hogey11 said:


> No, it doesn't sound like a bad song that would influence young kids.
> 
> HOWEVER, it features an artist that DOES influence kids in a very bad way. I know that when I like an artist or singer, I tend to look them up, find more about them, and so on.
> 
> ...



Trust me, not alot of kids idolizes Akon, he's not even a rapper. and yeah, some kids look up to some trashy rappers like Jim Jones, and Mims, but in the end of the day, they're kids, they want to listen to music they can relate to. Kids want to have money, they want to have nice cars, it;s just being a kid, once they grow, and mature, they'll start listining to music they can really relate to, and know what right and whats wrong.

I also know it's unrealistic for these kids to be thinking about money and cars, but in the end of the day, we're just kids, let us have an imagination, why do you want them to grow up so fast?


----------



## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

HKF said:


> White people in this country want American blacks to assimilate but that will never happen. We're just not gonna do it on a large scale. We actually will speak our minds and be who we want to be, no matter how angry it makes whites in the process.
> 
> Why can't you be more like Tiger Woods? You know the respectable blacks? Give me a break.
> 
> [Note there are many open minded white people on this site and in the country who say they like you for who you are as a person and don't judge you for being different than they are.]


then they shouldn't have brought us over here...vada


----------



## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

adam said:


> Considering that something like 80% of the NBA is black and that percentage is probably at 99% when you consider jewelry wearing, rap listening NBA players, it's obvious that he is criticizing black "hip-hop culture."
> 
> Black people will obviously take offense to having a white person say how stupid their decisions and lifestyle are. I don't know why that should surprise and so many people feign ignorance at the true subject matter.
> 
> However, the argument that stupid purchases are racially exclusive is somewhat justified. If you need to defend a rapper dropping 500k on some pink diamond earrings by citing the stupid CEO's that buy solid gold wastebaskets then you are beyond help.


we don't have to defend s***. semi-free country. buy what you want...vada


----------



## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

One on One said:


> You don't think hip hop is a horrible influence on a lot of young black males?
> 
> Do you want to disagree with that?
> 
> How is that generalizing? this is typical debate you are doing, you turn to semantics to sidestep the real issues.


young black males don't shoot teachers and all there classmates or hold entire schools hostage...we have more sense than that......vada


----------



## hogey11 (Aug 30, 2002)

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> Trust me, not alot of kids idolizes Akon, he's not even a rapper. and yeah, some kids look up to some trashy rappers like Jim Jones, and Mims, but in the end of the day, they're kids, they want to listen to music they can relate to. Kids want to have money, they want to have nice cars, it;s just being a kid, once they grow, and mature, they'll start listining to music they can really relate to, and know what right and whats wrong.
> 
> I also know it's unrealistic for these kids to be thinking about money and cars, but in the end of the day, we're just kids, let us have an imagination, why do you want them to grow up so fast?


Maybe thats so. I realize he is not a rapper, but he is a part of "hip-hop" nonetheless. My point is that we SHOULDN'T be turning our heads away from this, and should stop putting money in these douchebag's pockets. The argument that I originally addressed was whether hip-hop is a bad influence on young people. I feel that most, but not all, is definitely detrimental to a young persons mind and world-view. I also feel this way about certain kinds of Death Metal (Slipknot, etc.) and other artists. This is not a single-instance issue.

I think all those who are "offended" by Boguts comments need to give their head a shake.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

wightnoise said:


> Some people are too defensive. Bill Cosby and Charles Barkley agree w/Bogut.


Then it must be true.:lol:


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

hogey11 said:


> Maybe thats so. I realize he is not a rapper, but he is a part of "hip-hop" nonetheless


So he's a turntablist? Break dancer? Graff artist? Black guy?


----------



## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

Charlie Brown said:


> This thread is exactly why I do not normally participate in discussions of race and culture.
> 
> Terminal materialism is bad no matter what the vehicle it is brought to us in.
> 
> ...


what about hollywood? hollywood been descensitizing people forever...who made movies about gangsters and diamond wearing hoe's? where does everyones fasination with jewelery come from? people were violent and materialistic before the nba allowed us to play, and before the birth of hip hop.people were like that then and their still like that today...commercial rap is like the w.w.e. and the w.w.f., its all fake...movies and music damage everybody...they know we right. they can't handle that real s*** yaw...vada


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

MR. VADA said:


> young black males don't shoot teachers and all there classmates or hold entire schools hostage...we have more sense than that......vada


no, it's just that they're poor and therefore not news worthy. Why do you think that that one chick that disappeared in Aruba go so much press? She's a blonde white girl. If she were black, her parents would be calling and get no response from the cops in all likelihood. 

Remind me, at which schools are metal detectors more prevalent? Predominantly white schools or predominantly black schools? I saw Lean On Me. I know what public schools are like... lol


Anyways, I don't think that these words were meant to be inflammatory like that. I think they were made to reaffirm assumptions that people made about NBA players. Assumptions like they womanize, they spend a lot of money keeping their up their street cred, (Yes I do mean black men) and therefore blow their money before reaching old age. It's not any of our businesses to care, but I am arguing that there is validity to Bogut's claim


----------



## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

o.iatlhawksfan said:


> I think he has a point. Some of these players are definitly to crazy with their money, and with alot of them not finishing school, they can end up broke, than again it's their money, and they can do whatever they want with it.
> 
> ...and stop the Bogut bashing, it's not like he's a scrub, saying this, he's a respectable NBA player, so i'd take it more seriously.


This is uncalled for, lets not generalize shall we- HB


----------



## MR. VADA (Jun 29, 2006)

hogey11 said:


> No, it doesn't sound like a bad song that would influence young kids.
> 
> HOWEVER, it features an artist that DOES influence kids in a very bad way. I know that when I like an artist or singer, I tend to look them up, find more about them, and so on.
> 
> ...


akon is not a rapper and he's almost a singer...vada


----------



## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

MR. VADA said:


> what about hollywood? hollywood been descensitizing people forever...who made movies about gangsters and diamond wearing hoe's? where does everyones fasination with jewelery come from? people were violent and materialistic before the nba allowed us to play, and before the birth of hip hop.people were like that then and their still like that today...commercial rap is like the w.w.e. and the w.w.f., its all fake...movies and music damage everybody...they know we right. they can't handle that real s*** yaw...vada


Reading is fundamental. 



> Terminal materialism is bad no matter what the vehicle it is brought to us in.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Most of the people, i.e. the vast majority of people I heard listening to Akon are white. Most of his concert sales (i.e. touring with Gwen Stefani) were from white customers. Why should we assume that black people look up to him? Good grief. How would I know he's a polygamist? I don't follow him like that.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Who's Akon?


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Black artists and athletes are expected to represent the entire race. If white people do something unpopular their race almost never comes into it. It's one of the burdens of being black, especially young, black, and male. In reality as I said this is stern's biggest issue, marketing the NBA to a bunch of people that don't really care for black men but like the sport they happen to dominate at the highest level. Boxing has had the same problem in the past. Stern's solution is to placate the white people by talking about how bothered he is by "saggy pants" and making sure "brawls" never embarrass the NBA, whereas boxing has chosen to separate the "good" ******s from the "crazy" ******s in matchups like Tyson vs. Holyfield etc.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

wightnoise said:
 

> Some people are too defensive. Bill Cosby and Charles Barkley agree w/Bogut.


Two of the most stubborn, misinformed, old fashioned people in the black community, yep, they're the people to ask.


----------



## hogey11 (Aug 30, 2002)

essbee said:


> So he's a turntablist? Break dancer? Graff artist? Black guy?


Ummmm hook vocalist? Solo Artist? Lead Singer? Male Vocalist? Any would work.

PS make some sense, please.


----------



## hogey11 (Aug 30, 2002)

MR. VADA said:


> akon is not a rapper and he's almost a singer...vada


Oh come on people. Is Akon part of or not part of hip hop? Does he sing to bass-heavy music that is played predominantly in clubs and on top 40 stations? Trust me, I could bust out MUCH more inflammatory lyrics than the one i did. I chose that song because its subtle, and probably isn't picked up by most people. This stuff IS affecting people, whether we want to admit it or not. and most of it is not good. deal with it.

Also, this argument can be made with many other genres of music too (excluding classical, gospel, and Michael Bolton), meaning yes, i feel the same way about Pete Doherty and Marilyn Manson. I just don't see why people stick up for these guys. All they're doing is ensuring your future daughters are "broken in" by the time they hit 18 by some douchebag in a club they met on a random saturday night. They aren't doing ANYTHING good, other than filling their pockets with money. its crap, and we should probably be doing something about it... (LIKE SPEAKING OUT!)


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

essbee said:


> Black artists and athletes are expected to represent the entire race. If white people do something unpopular their race almost never comes into it. It's one of the burdens of being black, especially young, black, and male. In reality as I said this is stern's biggest issue, marketing the NBA to a bunch of people that don't really care for black men but like the sport they happen to dominate at the highest level. Boxing has had the same problem in the past. Stern's solution is to placate the white people by talking about how bothered he is by "saggy pants" and making sure "brawls" never embarrass the NBA, whereas boxing has chosen to separate the "good" ******s from the "crazy" ******s in matchups like Tyson vs. Holyfield etc.


I disagree that white people on a whole dislike black people. I think that there is a difference between getting nervous when seeing 5 black guys in a darkened alley and seeing them on a basketball court. I don't think that anyone cares about the race of an athlete anymore as long as he is talented. Race comes into play off the court/field/park/ring/racetrack. However, when it comes to sport, race does not matter, only talent. Stern's problem right now is that there is a lack of talent in the league. All of these marketable "superstars" are too immature to truly lead their team or lack the supporting cast to make noise. GS are like the anti-heroes of the NBA. Barnes, Jackson, and Al Harrington represent what "these racists" on the BBB dislike about the NBA. 

Stern's biggest worry is that the media doesn't keep pulling the race card ALL THE ****ING TIME! Hey, the NBA has a problem because there are black people on the court. Hey, black people aren't as marketable to white people as other white people. Wasn't Magic and Jordan more marketable than Bird? Who gets more commercials, KG(really black) or Nash(really white)? This whole racism thing is stupid. The only part of me that's racist is thinking that a black person(male or female) is more likely to kick my *** that a white dude.


----------



## hogey11 (Aug 30, 2002)

HKF said:


> Most of the people, i.e. the vast majority of people I heard listening to Akon are white. Most of his concert sales (i.e. touring with Gwen Stefani) were from white customers. Why should we assume that black people look up to him? Good grief. How would I know he's a polygamist? I don't follow him like that.


My issue is not that white or black people are listening to him. Its that some hip hop does indeed produce a bad influence on society, which is what Bogut's comments were based on (or at least where the conversation went). All i'm saying is lets not stand up for these people, just because a few are perceiving the race card being played. It's not. Bogut is calling it as he sees it, and over-exaggerated on the 80% number. Hip hop has turned a good percentage of young people; black, white, red and yellow; into valuing what they sing about, namely cars, money, women, drugs, and expensive alcohol. To all those rappers who don't rhyme about that stuff, good on them, i hope they do well.


----------



## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> Who's Akon?



one of the most *UNTALENTED*, artist you will ever hear!


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

So you are afraid of black people in real life? Good to know. What exactly do Matt Barnes and Al Harrington represent that is bad? When have they ever done anything. Stephen Jackson is a HOTHEAD no doubt, but what have any of the other Warriors done to be labeled as people this site is against. 

Is it simply because they look dangerous? If black people scare you that much, you have some psychological stuff you should take care of.


----------



## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

hogey11 said:


> No, thats not fair. If Bogut was making a comment towards young black people, he would have said it. Now, incidentally, the NBA happens to be filled with 85% of black men. That is not Andrew Bogut's fault, and if you want to reach and insinuate that he was making racial comments, then you are purely looking for a fight.
> 
> Again, you cannot say that he is not basing his claims on anything substantial. You are not Andrew Bogut, and you have not seen what he has seen. He has a right to voice what he has experienced. If you read the whole article, you also get to see that Bogut himself has a few guilty pleasures too. He plays poker at casinos, but he plays at the people's tables, instead of the high-stakes tables in the back rooms. He says he enjoys playing with real people, and that it takes some time for them to get over the 7 foot nba player at the table, but after a few hands they're playing with him like anybody else.
> 
> ...


I noticed that no one rebutted my post or mine from earlier in the thread. Instead, we're focusing on mudslinging about whether Akon is a R&B performer or rapper.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

HKF said:


> So you are afraid of black people in real life? Good to know. What exactly do Matt Barnes and Al Harrington represent that is bad? When have they ever done anything. Stephen Jackson is a HOTHEAD no doubt, but what have any of the other Warriors done to be labeled as people this site is against.
> 
> Is it simply because they look dangerous? If black people scare you that much, you have some psychological stuff you should take care of.


No, I was simply referencing that they became the NBA darlings and they are probably the most "thug" team in the league. My argument is that they ARE marketable even if they represent "thug life" because talent transcends racism in all sports. People don't care what race an athlete is, but rather if he can play.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> I disagree that white people on a whole dislike black people.


Hahahahaha good for you. I'm from a place called reality. Anytime you want to visit feel free. No group as a WHOLE does anything but the idea that whites don't dislike blacks by and large, when people's true colors are revealed by discussions like this one, is a joke. As I said I hope this thread is a wake up call for black people that feel the way you do.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

hogey11 said:


> Ummmm hook vocalist? Solo Artist? Lead Singer? Male Vocalist? Any would work.
> 
> PS make some sense, please.


No they wouldn't. If they did Mariah Carey would be a rapper. So would babyface after his appearance with Outkast on Jazzy Bell. So would Aerosmith after working with Run DMC. So would Phil Collins after that horrible song he did with Bone Thugs. 

Wtf are you talking about?


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

essbee said:


> Hahahahaha good for you. I'm from a place called reality. Anytime you want to visit feel free. No group as a WHOLE does anything but the idea that whites don't dislike blacks by and large, when people's true colors are revealed by discussions like this one, is a joke. As I said I hope this thread is a wake up call for black people that feel the way you do.


did you forget some words in here? And to be clear, I'm not a racist, I'm a misanthrope... I hate everyone equally.


----------



## hogey11 (Aug 30, 2002)

Greg Ostertag! said:


> I noticed that no one rebutted my post or mine from earlier in the thread. Instead, we're focusing on mudslinging about whether Akon is a R&B performer or rapper.


I've echoed many of your sentiments in my posts. I believe you are right in not assigning race to the behavior, as we see Mr. Bogut participating himself, but he does so at a moderate level, according to the article. He plays poker at regular tables in the Milwaukee casinos, and i have no idea about his car collection, so maybe thats massive (although i bets its only a few).

The point, like you said, is that we may think all NBA players can support nice cars, tonnes of jewellery, and that they "can spend it like they want", but what Bogut is telling us is that its the exact opposite. Lots of fringe NBA players spend way beyond their means and there's nothing left when they blow out their knee in their contract year. Its dumb, he called it out, and hypocritical or not, he was asked about it and he answered the question. I don't see where the problem is.


----------



## hogey11 (Aug 30, 2002)

essbee said:


> Hahahahaha good for you. I'm from a place called reality. Anytime you want to visit feel free. No group as a WHOLE does anything but the idea that whites don't dislike blacks by and large, when people's true colors are revealed by discussions like this one, is a joke. As I said I hope this thread is a wake up call for black people that feel the way you do.


You reap what you sow.


----------



## Greg Ostertag! (May 1, 2003)

hogey11 said:


> I've echoed many of your sentiments in my posts. I believe you are right in not assigning race to the behavior, as we see Mr. Bogut participating himself, but he does so at a moderate level, according to the article. He plays poker at regular tables in the Milwaukee casinos, and i have no idea about his car collection, so maybe thats massive (although i bets its only a few).
> 
> The point, like you said, is that we may think all NBA players can support nice cars, tonnes of jewellery, and that they "can spend it like they want", but what Bogut is telling us is that its the exact opposite. Lots of fringe NBA players spend way beyond their means and there's nothing left when they blow out their knee in their contract year. Its dumb, he called it out, and hypocritical or not, he was asked about it and he answered the question. I don't see where the problem is.


Yes, that should have read "this post or mine". So we're in agreeance


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

hogey11 said:


> You reap what you sow.


A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.


----------



## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

Esbee says that young black males that are successful represents the black community as a whole. And if you believe that, then they need to wear that proudly and not do anything stupid, am I not right on this? If they believe they represent the black community then do it in a fashion where people don't have to judge you. 

If Bill Cosby and Charles Barkley are just old farts that doesn't know what being "black" is all about. Then please tell the world whats "black" all about. BTW, if you even try to answer that question you already stereotype blacks and so on. Can it be remotely possible that Bill Cosby, Charles Barkley, Jim Brown, Barack Obama and so on may be right?

Unless you're listening to certain blacks to understand what it is like to live in a black community. As much as I love Jay-Z, Eminem (yes i know he is white), and all other hip hop artist, I just find it funny after their 6th or 7th album they are talking like they "understand" what it is like to be in the projects/ghetto. Yet, they are as successful, just like Charles Barkley and cosby, they probably left their old neighborhood after they got the cash to leave, probably living it up in a "white" community. If whites criticize blacks as a whole, why would black successful families live in "white" areas. 

All this about "whites hate blacks" is nonsense, unless you live during the civil rights or even older, I don't think anyone can really complain about hatred and racism because the people who lived went through hell to pave the roads for all minorities. 

Yes, there are some racism that still goes on, but don't make it like its rampant and every white cop is throwing the hose on you or beating you everyday. GEEZ.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

thatsnotgross said:


> Esbee says that young black males that are successful represents the black community as a whole.


Where do you see that quote exactly? It's easier to just use the quote feature so you don't have to make confusing summaries on your own. What I said is that there are many sides that represent the black community, unlike the impression the morons on this site have which is that it's just a bunch of people imitating hip hop videos. Please find the quote where i said young successful black males represent the community as a whole. What's UNFAIR is that the small percentages of the population are used to judge the entire race. Whereas for example John Daly is a gambling smoking addictive personality who gets tour sponsorships due to his popularity, and his race is never mentioned by people talking about him.

thanks.



> If Bill Cosby and Charles Barkley are just old farts that doesn't know what being "black" is all about.


Huh? What was said is that they only had one perspective. The only reason white people like to quote those two is because they openly criticize behavior which gives white people a chance to say what they want while using a black person to show agreement.



> Yet, they are as successful, just like Charles Barkley and cosby, they probably left their old neighborhood after they got the cash to leave, probably living it up in a "white" community. If whites criticize blacks as a whole, why would black successful families live in "white" areas.


Not all of the affluent communities people live in are white.



> All this about "whites hate blacks" is nonsense, unless you live during the civil rights or even older, I don't think anyone can really complain about hatred and racism because the people who lived went through hell to pave the roads for all minorities.


What experiences of yours is this opinion based on? I don't know what you mean by "during the civil rights or even older" as that sentence doesn't make sense. Are you saying that civil rights legislation ended racism? I assumed people over the age of 12 or 13 have studied the differences between de jure and de facto racism and I shouldn't have to explain this point, but obviously that assumption was wrong. Your point is the equivalent of saying that discrimination against women stopped as soon as women were given the right to vote.



> Yes, there are some racism that still goes on, but don't make it like its rampant and every white cop is throwing the hose on you or beating you everyday. GEEZ.


 Right.. because that's what would need to happen for racism to be rampant. Nice logic.


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

essbee said:


> No group as a WHOLE does anything but the idea that whites don't dislike blacks by and large, when people's true colors are revealed by discussions like this one, is a joke. As I said I hope this thread is a wake up call for black people that feel the way you do.


it's foolish to draw conclusions on how "whites" feel about "blacks" from this thread, just like it's foolish to conclude about american or black culture based on life in the nba.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

kflo said:


> it's foolish to draw conclusions on how "whites" feel about "blacks" from this thread, just like it's foolish to conclude about american or black culture based on life in the nba.


Who said I was drawing that conclusion based solely on this thread? I have an entire country's history as evidence that white people have certain feelings towards blacks. I said clearly, and several times, that this thread is a good REMINDER of the way blacks are viewed by whites.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

essbee said:


> Whereas for example John Daly is a gambling smoking addictive personality who gets tour sponsorships due to his popularity, and his race is never mentioned by people talking about him.


And Michael Jordan, the most marketable player ever, was a womanizing, cigar smoking, gambling addict as well.... no one is calling him trash. It's not about that. It's not about role models, it's about a personal opinion of one man who says that many players dress like they are gansta rappers and live outside, or just barely within, their means.




essbee said:


> Huh? What was said is that they only had one perspective. The only reason white people like to quote those two is because they openly criticize behavior which gives white people a chance to say what they want while using a black person to show agreement.


So anyone who has anything to say that may be a criticism of black people/black culture is either racist or an Uncle Tom. Got it. 



essbee said:


> Not all of the affluent communities people live in are white.


True, but that does nothing to help an argument of the validity of Bogut's claim. In fact, the argument is that too many players live in affluent neighborhoods and therefore go broke doing so.



essbee said:


> What experiences of yours is this opinion based on? I don't know what you mean by "during the civil rights or even older" as that sentence doesn't make sense. Are you saying that civil rights legislation ended racism? I assumed people over the age of 12 or 13 have studied the differences between de jure and de facto racism and I shouldn't have to explain this point, but obviously that assumption was wrong. Your point is the equivalent of saying that discrimination against women stopped as soon as women were given the right to vote.
> 
> Right.. because that's what would need to happen for racism to be rampant. Nice logic.


De facto racism has nothing to do with individuals, you know that right? So therefore people are able to not be racist while racism exists. De facto racism has to do with the Marxist 'haves' and 'have-nots' strongly correlating with race/creed/gender. So while I concur that de facto racism is still a very prominent factor in American culture and society as a whole, the argument that people are not dealing with direct racism is truer now than ever before. As for the aspect of covert racism, I agree to an extent. I don't think anyone would fear a black man in a suit any more than a white guy in a suit. So now it has to do with imprinted responses to perceived threats. While you may call it racist, and it is, but it is largely affected by a natural response to A)people that are different, in which we naturally fear those who appear different and B) we have been trained to avoid situations that we perceive potentially harmful to us. So being on guard around black people is a totally normal response because while black people comprise 40% of the population, a disproportionate amount of crime is perpetrated by black people. That is about the extent of racism that I believe most people have. I do not believe that people are actively opposing the advancement of black people in general, in fact I do believe that Affirmative Action is actually a form of reverse racism (which is still racism) in which white people of the same qualifications are excluded from a job/college if it is a decision between a white person or a black person.

So when NBA players want to look like rappers, who like to look like drug dealers, who are responsible for many murders, shouldn't people have a problem with that? Instead of celebrating the ghetto, shouldn't they be hoping that it no longer exists? That kids don't have to worry about living to graduation, or where their next meal is coming from? The first step IS being a role model because there are SO FEW black role models out there. That is dressing responsibly and telling kids to go to college(even if he didn't) and become a doctor or lawyer or even a PhD. That's what Charles Barkley and Bill Cosby are all about. They want these men to be role models and help raise the standard of living in general for black people. That means more black doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. Is that really racist?


----------



## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

Why isn't this racist thread closed yet???

when it closes, ill have a continued thread on my personal forum, so don't worry!


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> And Michael Jordan, the most marketable player ever, was a womanizing, cigar smoking, gambling addict as well.... no one is calling him trash.


yeah it's not like they jumped on his gambling when his father was killed right?



> It's not about that. It's not about role models, it's about a personal opinion of one man who says that many players dress like they are gansta rappers and live outside, or just barely within, their means.


No. If it was just about that you wouldn't say that hip hop's negative effects can be found by looking at the crime statistics of the area where young black men. FYI, young white men are the largest buying group of hip hop, with the lowest estimates hovering at around 60% of the buying audience. 





> So anyone who has anything to say that may be a criticism of black people/black culture is either racist or an Uncle Tom. Got it.


Another moronic attempt at a summary. 



> In fact, the argument is that too many players live in affluent neighborhoods and therefore go broke doing so.


No, the argument is that they spend their money stupidly. Real estate purchases in nice neighborhoods can indicate overspending but generally doesn't since real estate appreciates in value more than other investments. You're making this up as you go along. Bogut isn't saying "they spend too much money on houses in nice neighborhoods." And again, not all affluent neighborhoods are white so your point was nonsensical.




> De facto racism has nothing to do with individuals, you know that right?


So blanket statements can only be used to apply to blacks? You are the one who just said that b/c of the black crime *GROUP *statistics it's reasonable to fear young black male *INDIVIDUALS* that someone meets. BTW your entire rant is directly lifted from Sandra Bullock's character in 'Crash.' 



> So while I concur that de facto racism is still a very prominent factor in American culture and society as a whole, the argument that people are not dealing with direct racism is truer now than ever before.



.... no


De facto racism is an issue of the real world ways it's applied on societal levels whether it be by large groups or individuals. Individuals who run corporations paying certain people less money or promoting certain people less often than others is de facto racism. Again, if you think racism isn't directly faced you probably think that women don't directly face sexism. That has no basis in reality.



> I don't think anyone would fear a black man in a suit any more than a white guy in a suit.


Again, this importance placed on clothing. I'm sure all the Enron chiefs were wearing suits when they were committing one of the biggest crimes in American history. Bush was probably wearing a suit when he ordered thousands of Americans to die at war. The idea that clothing reflects character is pathetic.




> So being on guard around black people is a totally normal response because while black people comprise 40% of the population, a disproportionate amount of crime is perpetrated by black people.


Then, as I asked earlier, is it a totally normal response for people with children to be on guard around white men since white men are disproportionately responsible for child molesting? Are less white men hired for corporate jobs because white men are disproportionately responsible for corporate crimes? Are white men profiled for terrorism since most of the terrorism committed in this country's history has been perpetrated by white men(KKK, Sons of Liberty, etc.)? IF so why isn't any of this actually done? I didn't see white men being thrown into Guantanamo Bay in record numbers after Tim McVeigh's attack, did you?



> That is about the extent of racism that I believe most people have.


lmao, that would explain why the friend whose girlfriend was disowned by her family is a far more successful professional than any of the people in her family. Thanks for that insight on race relations.



> I do not believe that people are actively opposing the advancement of black people in general, in fact I do believe that Affirmative Action is actually a form of reverse racism (which is still racism) in which white people of the same qualifications are excluded from a job/college if it is a decision between a white person or a black person.


My post from several pages ago:

" Make no mistake these are the same people that complain about affirmative action and only address the black people it helps (nevermind all the white women it helps)"

I appreciate you saying that b/c it makes my point all the more clear. I assume you're familiar with the huge benefit white women reaped from AA programs?



> So when NBA players want to look like rappers, who like to look like drug dealers, who are responsible for many murders, shouldn't people have a problem with that?


Is it fair to say you've never lived in the environments you're talking about? You just sound like any other rush limbaugh fan talking about something you have zero direct experience with. Is that fair to say?

The rest of your post makes my point about using Barkley and Cosby to justify saying what you want about blacks.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

essbee said:


> Hahahahaha good for you. I'm from a place called reality. Anytime you want to visit feel free. No group as a WHOLE does anything but the idea that whites don't dislike blacks by and large, *when people's true colors are revealed by discussions like this one, is a joke. As I said I hope this thread is a wake up call for black people that feel the way you do.*


You're absolutely right... Because you have a problem with some hip hop artists with millions of fans representing a race... But posters on an Internet Basketball Forum surely do... Brilliant logic...


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

Some people are so thick... When the whole Columbine incident happened, and a couple other school shootings involving white students. Guess what happened? Marilyn Manson did it! He's to blame! Get him! Get him! A young man committed suicide... Guess who they went after? Judas Priest for their supposed "subliminal messages" in their songs. When the whole parental advisory sticker thing happened, guess who was on the "dirty 15" or whatever it was called... Predominately, white, heavy metal bands... They were corrupting the youth! KISS had a huge backlash... Mothers protested outside their concerts for "corrupting the youth" 

But... Mainstream only comes down on black hip hop artists... Right? Cosby came out and said "There's a problem with young black America today" basically. And they basically gave a big **** YOU to Bill Cosby, citing the same reasons HKF did about basically not changing for white people. Furthermore, I find it funny that you talk about how you can't blame hip hop for anything. Normally, I am one of them. Words don't do anything, and I don't blame the WORDS of hip hop... But all you have to do is go down to EBB and check out the Hip Hop Forum... Underneath said forum is a slogan that is reciprocated by every hip hop artist, and fan. From Russel Simmons to Dr. Dre... "It isn't just music, it's a culture" So when crime is abundant, who do you think they'll blame?



> No personal attacks- HB


BTW, after reading the past few pages... I found this laughable...


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

So because a person is black, he or she has to listen to Hiphop?


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

HB said:


> So because you a person is black, he or she has to listen to Hiphop?


Not at all... Any ethnicity can listen to any music they please. But clearly, the person who is attacking hip hop is attacking the culture surrounding hip hop. There are great messages in hip hop, my avatar is a pretty good indicator of how I feel about hip hop. I'm just not so sure the good surrounding hip hop culture outweighs the bad.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

The fact that some people feel like black people need hiphop to make decisions is laughable. You really think the music has that much of an influence on people? Are people really that dim witted?


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

HB said:


> The fact that some people feel like black people need hiphop to make decisions is laughable. You really think the music has that much of an influence on people? Are people really that dim witted?


Are people really that dim witted that they don't understand what the word... "culture" means?


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

HKF said:


> White people in this country want American blacks to assimilate but that will never happen. We're just not gonna do it on a large scale. We actually will speak our minds and be who we want to be, no matter how angry it makes whites in the process.
> 
> Why can't you be more like Tiger Woods? You know the respectable blacks? Give me a break.
> 
> [Note there are many open minded white people on this site and in the country who say they like you for who you are as a person and don't judge you for being different than they are.]


Not quite sure I'm understanding what you're saying here... Are you implying that black youth should not attempt to imitate or reciprocate the characteristic traits of guys like Dwyane Wade or Tiger Woods? I've heard the term "respectable black" many times from Rodney, and Esbee... And now you... Yet, not once have I received an explanation of what it is that makes someone a "respectable black" 

For example, I talked about I think it was Dwyane Wade, Tim Duncan, Shaq, etc. And how they were never labeled thugs, and were beloved by many people white and black. The response I got from Esbee or Rodney I am not sure? Something along the lines of "That's because those are the acceptable blacks" So what makes them those "respectable blacks" that you so dislike? What makes them so "acceptable" that you think is wrong?


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

Hibachi! said:


> Not quite sure I'm understanding what you're saying here... Are you implying that black youth should not attempt to imitate or reciprocate the characteristic traits of guys like Dwyane Wade or Tiger Woods? I've heard the term "respectable black" many times from Rodney, and Esbee... And now you... Yet, not once have I received an explanation of what it is that makes someone a "respectable black"
> 
> For example, I talked about I think it was Dwyane Wade, Tim Duncan, Shaq, etc. And how they were never labeled thugs, and were beloved by many people white and black. The response I got from Esbee or Rodney I am not sure? Something along the lines of "That's because those are the acceptable blacks" So what makes them those "respectable blacks" that you so dislike? What makes them so "acceptable" that you think is wrong?


It's not that difficult of a concept to grasp. The respectable black is the safe *****. It's not that we don't like them, per say, it's that they're put on a pedastal and their characteristics are exaggerated. They are held up as an ideal to the rest of us and then we're supposed to match that.

It's also a disturbing thought pattern produced when people say "why can't you be more like (insert name here)" that supports a fallacy that that's the only way. It's wrong, and people shouldn't be surprised when people snap at that statement.

There's more to this, but I think that's sufficient.


----------



## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

IceMan23and3 said:


> did you forget some words in here? And to be clear, I'm not a racist, I'm a misanthrope... I hate everyone equally.


No you don't.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

In my daily life I am probably closer to a Tiger Woods than a 50 Cent, but I don't like the Pedestals that "non-confrontational, toe-the-line black people" are put on. I look at black people as being very diverse and I have nothing against someone like Tiger Woods (and I love Tim Duncan more than most), but what I don't like is people saying that you should aspire to be like them as if they are a monolith. Black people don't exist in a vacuum and I can just as readily accept the difference between my mother and my father. My mother is very compassionate, hard working and genuinely doesn't hate anyone, but one could say that she is not educated like other people I know. My dad is a cold, calculating businessman who despised the white men he worked for. 

While they are two extremes in my travails around them I can appreciate and learn from their positives as well as their negatives.

I don't look at 50 Cent as a bad person because he went to jail or sold drugs. My brother's in jail for that now. However, I do look at 50 Cent as an entrepreneur and think man this guy went from a damn bum to a CORPORATION. As I always tell any black person that's younger than I, if you can, go get your money, because the moment you become OLD MONEY things will change.

To get people to change, you can't castigate them. You must get on their level and speak to them with respect and say your piece. If they want to change, they will. If they don't, they won't. The fact is in America, black people are judged by their race. It's the truth. Not so in other countries, but I accept that.

I will not accept Bogut's inflammatory rhetoric and not say he's being racist/ignorant because a) he cited irresponsible figures that are WRONG b) said the American players are blinded by bling-bling/rap music, considering that there is only 6% of the league that is white in the NBA, he's talking about black players period. He's a hypocrite and an idiot and I just wish he would shut up and stick to talking about himself only.

We have people like Ira Newble, Kevin Garnett, Stephon Marbury, Carmelo Anthony, Gilbert Arenas, Tracy McGrady, Shane Battier and many others who donate their free time and energy to helping their communities and their people improve the qualities of life and yet Bogut makes some ignorant assumptions about what grown "millionaires" are doing with their money. As if owning a home in this country is a bad thing, yet he collects cars?

Americans on the whole will never be happy with YOUNG BLACK MILLIONAIRES because they are often immature and represent what older people don't want to see. Of course they do. They're young people with money. I'm from NYC and live in LA, I know how stupid young people with money are. That's called life.

I don't think I know any black person who's ever said to me that they're "Hip Hop." The only group I ever hear is that they're "Black"


----------



## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

Esbee, what is it that you want from this forum? To let the forum know that its "the whole world is against us" kind of thing? Since you are so keen on judging as a group please tell me the difference between a gay man and a black man?

you dislike gays but hate discrimination against blacks. Do you see the irony here. This is why I can't take you seriously. I love it how people are against discrimination, OH BUT WAIT, you only dislike black discrimination. Everyone stereotypes the BLACK Community, saying they are all hip hop, 50 cent, gun shooting, champagne pouring on these "hoes", flash their bling, and all that. Yet, its acceptable to slam on gays. Do you see where I'm going at or you're just beating on your own drum at this point.

How can one person take you seriously, when you only have a certain degree of discrimination.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

ehmunro said:


> No you don't.


oh, wow, I never looked at it like that before.... how arrogant are you to assume you know an internet screenname? I mean really. 

I really don't care what you think are the problems with race relations etc. I'm not here for that, I'm here for basketball. So, I'll let HKF and Hibachi take over, they're more than capable.


Essbee, you really need to work on your reading comprehension skills.


----------



## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

HKF said:


> In my daily life I am probably closer to a Tiger Woods than a 50 Cent, but I don't like the Pedestals that "non-confrontational, toe-the-line black people" are put on. I look at black people as being very diverse and I have nothing against someone like Tiger Woods (and I love Tim Duncan more than most), but what I don't like is people saying that you should aspire to be like them as if they are a monolith. Black people don't exist in a vacuum and I can just as readily accept the difference between my mother and my father. My mother is very compassionate, hard working and genuinely doesn't hate anyone, but one could say that she is not educated like other people I know. My dad is a cold, calculating businessman who despised the white men he worked for.
> 
> While they are two extremes in my travails around them I can appreciate and learn from their positives as well as their negatives.
> 
> ...


Now you're tap dancing. You want blacks to be "blacks". WHICH I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT THE HELL IT MEANS still. Hibachi! is right when he reply to your last thread. But you're disgusted by people wishing that blacks act more Tiger Woods then 50 cent. HELL YEAH, just like I would tell any white kids to not freaking emulate Marilyn Manson and hope to follow footsteps of the likes of Bono from U2. Does that make me a racist when I tell black kids not to BE LIKE 50 cent and try NOT to take that route to make their money?

I don't know if you're a father or not, if you are then I don't know if you would be telling your kids to have a role model like 50 cent or Marilyn Manson. If I had kids, I wouldn't be telling them to have role models of 50 cent NOR marilyn Manson. If i had a choice, yeah it would be Tiger Woods or Bono from U2. Do you see what I'm saying, it doesn't matter if whoever is black or white, its how these celebrities hold themselves. 



> I don't look at 50 Cent as a bad person because he went to jail or sold drugs. My brother's in jail for that now. However, I do look at 50 Cent as an entrepreneur and think man this guy went from a damn bum to a CORPORATION. As I always tell any black person that's younger than I, if you can, go get your money, because the moment you become OLD MONEY things will change.


So you're saying that 50 cents is not a bad person because he sold drugs illegally? I could care less if it was your brother or my brother that was in jail for something that he did was obviously wrong. I'm sure you think he did the wrong thing too, but please don't assume that he is a good kid selling illegal drugs to possibly minors is just trying to get by in this world. Hell, I've been trying to get by in this world for a very long time and I have never come to doing something illegal. 

I think this is when you need to seriously look at what you're saying, it is okay to do whatever you want to do as long as you're making the benjamins. PLEASE, don't start spewing that around to young kids and say, "if you have no way out, at least you have drugs to sell". Maybe you didn't phrase that right or something but NOw YOU NEED to stop calling bogut a hypocrite when you generally say that go get your money NO MATTER HOW you do it.

Another great role model on the street helping out 



> To get people to change, you can't castigate them. You must get on their level and speak to them with respect and say your piece. If they want to change, they will. If they don't, they won't. The fact is in America, black people are judged by their race. It's the truth. Not so in other countries, but I accept that.
> 
> I will not accept Bogut's inflammatory rhetoric and not say he's being racist/ignorant because a) he cited irresponsible figures that are WRONG b) said the American players are blinded by bling-bling/rap music, considering that there is only 6% of the league that is white in the NBA, he's talking about black players period. He's a hypocrite and an idiot and I just wish he would shut up and stick to talking about himself only.


You wish upon America to stop generalizing blacks as a whole and hope for change. Yet you generalize America and say black people are judged by their race. Please, if you're going to point and blame, don't hope for something to be change when YOU YOURSELF is not part of the change. 

If you think that black-americans are getting the shaft at all times then there wouldn't be any black-Americans at very high position. Yes, it may seem slow in your eyes and you hope for rapid change, then you need to start reading history books. You need to basically read more in general, if you actually think that it will happen in a blink of an eye. 

I think people really focus on certain parts of what he says, which was hip hop, cars and bling. Right there many people are associating those three words with the hip hop of the black community yet they blocked almost everything out. He says he knows many players that play in the NBA and becomes bankrupt. 

The board is so senile that they start naming players that were top 5% of money making during their heydays or current NBA future. Example, Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Lebron, Wade... you don't see them going bankrupt anytime soon. I think Bogut was *REFERRING TO FRINGE NBA PLAYERS *(please read board members SLOWLY when I say this) that certainly did not handle their money right. How many players are making more than enough to sustain a life that they were living in during the NBA days? NOT MANY. 

Since HKF have some sort of background of business (from father), then maybe you should ask your father how much a person would need to save up if they want to live the same lifestyle that they currently own. NBA PLAYER or an average Joe like us. He will probably say, you would need to cut down 60% and have hundreds of thousands to live the same lifestyle you've been living. NBA players average lifespan is about 3-5 years and thats it. 

Clear cut example is probably Manute Bol. The guy wasn't making huge amount of money but he lived a lifestyle that was sustain by the career of his NBA days. How can a player live the way he would live after an average of 3-5 years in the NBA until his DEATH!?!?!

So, I don't just look at some parts of Boguts comment and already label him. I try to listen to what he had to say and then have MY OWN conclusion unlike some of you that don't want to even remotely think about it but instead throw their hands up and start ranting and whining.


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

thatsnotgross said:


> Now you're tap dancing. You want blacks to be "blacks". WHICH I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT THE HELL IT MEANS still.


Don't define us, we'll define ourselves as individuals.



> But you're disgusted by people wishing that blacks act more Tiger Woods then 50 cent. HELL YEAH, just like I would tell any white kids to not freaking emulate Marilyn Manson and hope to follow footsteps of the likes of Bono from U2. Does that make me a racist when I tell black kids not to BE LIKE 50 cent and try NOT to take that route to make their money?


It's like you're not getting it on purpose. I'm gonna keep it one hundred..

People get offended when people say "act more like Tiger Woods" because all that comes with it. That statement doesn't exist in a bubble, it comes with a lot of other stuff. Act like Tiger Woods is a euphemism for "act white". You can deny it, but that's the truth.

It's kinda like if a white person told me "I don't really like black people, but you're cool." How am I supposed to take that? Should I be cool with it?



> I don't know if you're a father or not, if you are then I don't know if you would be telling your kids to have a role model like 50 cent or Marilyn Manson. If I had kids, I wouldn't be telling them to have role models of 50 cent NOR marilyn Manson. If i had a choice, yeah it would be Tiger Woods or Bono from U2. Do you see what I'm saying, it doesn't matter if whoever is black or white, its how these celebrities hold themselves.


If you're a parent and you tell your child that, you're probably a bad parent.



> So you're saying that 50 cents is not a bad person because he sold drugs illegally? I could care less if it was your brother or my brother that was in jail for something that he did was obviously wrong. I'm sure you think he did the wrong thing too, but please don't assume that he is a good kid selling illegal drugs to possibly minors is just trying to get by in this world. Hell, I've been trying to get by in this world for a very long time and I have never come to doing something illegal.


Not all people who sell drugs are evil people. Same way I don't view a soldier who volunteers for service and kills someone evil. Sure they made a decision to sign up (join in) but there's influences for those decisions. It's nowhere near as simple as people make it. That's not saying it's not wrong, but we all make wrong moves or wrong decisions which don't make us bad people.

What 50 Cent did was turn his negative into a positive. He found his talent rapping, worked hard at it, got started found his following and made it big. He made some smart investments and business moves and now 50 Cent is a brand, G-Unit is a brand. The difference between 50 Cent and Tiger Woods is their background and the craft they worked at.



> I think this is when you need to seriously look at what you're saying, it is okay to do whatever you want to do as long as you're making the benjamins. PLEASE, don't start spewing that around to young kids and say, "if you have no way out, at least you have drugs to sell". Maybe you didn't phrase that right or something but NOw YOU NEED to stop calling bogut a hypocrite when you generally say that go get your money NO MATTER HOW you do it.
> 
> Another great role model on the street helping out


Yeah, that's what he said all right.  FOH guy.



> You wish upon America to stop generalizing blacks as a whole and hope for change. Yet you generalize America and say black people are judged by their race. Please, if you're going to point and blame, don't hope for something to be change when YOU YOURSELF is not part of the change.


Play hypothetical with me. If all blacks in America became like Tiger Woods, what exactly would change in the big picture? Would all the inequality disappear? Would it shift?



> If you think that black-americans are getting the shaft at all times then there wouldn't be any black-Americans at very high position. Yes, it may seem slow in your eyes and you hope for rapid change, then you need to start reading history books. You need to basically read more in general, if you actually think that it will happen in a blink of an eye.


Well, um.. a TON of time has passed. Things are moving but much, much, much, much, much (oh did I say "Much"?) too slowly. This is like telling us to be satisfied with any progress.



> I think people really focus on certain parts of what he says, which was hip hop, cars and bling. Right there many people are associating those three words with the hip hop of the black community yet they blocked almost everything out. He says he knows many players that play in the NBA and becomes bankrupt.


There's a lot of ways to say things without directly saying them. He says "many", but who is "many".. I mean I'm on some NNN with him on that one. 



> Clear cut example is probably Manute Bol. The guy wasn't making huge amount of money but he lived a lifestyle that was sustain by the career of his NBA days. How can a player live the way he would live after an average of 3-5 years in the NBA until his DEATH!?!?!


TERRIBLE EXAMPLE! TERRIBLE.

Manute Bol gave most of his money to a charity foundation he formed caused the Ring True Foundation to support Sudanese refugees. It wasn't about living the NBA life after he retired, he was a very charitable person and gave everything he had for a good cause. Maybe we should be more like Manute.



> So, I don't just look at some parts of Boguts comment and already label him. I try to listen to what he had to say and then have MY OWN conclusion unlike some of you that don't want to even remotely think about it but instead throw their hands up and start ranting and whining.


Well they did have their own conclusion about, you just didn't agree with it. You don't agree with their conclusion so you try to invalidate everything they say by saying they gave it no thought.

Andrew Bogut made some points, but you can't convince me his whole talk was about the "many (fringe players) who went bankrupt". It was about the bling, hip-hop, and American arrogance.. mix those three in a cauldron and tell me what stereotype pops out, along with the 80% number. I'm just saying.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

essbee said:


> yeah it's not like they jumped on his gambling when his father was killed right?


 not really. He made Space Jam, starred in more Gatorade commercials, and everyone waited breathlessly as he sucked at baseball.




essbee said:


> No. If it was just about that you wouldn't say that hip hop's negative effects can be found by looking at the crime statistics of the area where young black men. FYI, young white men are the largest buying group of hip hop, with the lowest estimates hovering at around 60% of the buying audience.


 learn to read my posts.




essbee said:


> Another moronic attempt at a summary.


 good comeback?



essbee said:


> No, the argument is that they spend their money stupidly. Real estate purchases in nice neighborhoods can indicate overspending but generally doesn't since real estate appreciates in value more than other investments. You're making this up as you go along. Bogut isn't saying "they spend too much money on houses in nice neighborhoods." And again, not all affluent neighborhoods are white so your point was nonsensical.


 and stupidly means spending outside of your means, being forced to sell you house after only a few years, essentially losing money due to agent fees and taxation (most states tax heavily if you sell your home within the first 2 years... ah forget it) and no, the home market ain't so hot right now. Again, I am referring to a black man owning a nice home. What is so difficult to understand? 




essbee said:


> So blanket statements can only be used to apply to blacks? You are the one who just said that b/c of the black crime *GROUP *statistics it's reasonable to fear young black male *INDIVIDUALS* that someone meets. BTW your entire rant is directly lifted from Sandra Bullock's character in 'Crash.'


WTF? How about I didn't copy that rant? I don't even remember that rant in that movie. I only remember that the movie sucked and was a terrible knock off of 'Short Cuts'

Since I doubt anyone has met EVERY individual of a certain race, creed, or gender, rote generalizations of behaviors of people dressed certain ways as well as of a certain race, creed, or gender does influence opinions of an individual upon meeting new individuals.




essbee said:


> De facto racism is an issue of the real world ways it's applied on societal levels whether it be by large groups or individuals. Individuals who run corporations paying certain people less money or promoting certain people less often than others is de facto racism. Again, if you think racism isn't directly faced you probably think that women don't directly face sexism. That has no basis in reality.


 i was thinking de facto segregation... Covert racism still exists, but I don't know to what extent though... and you can only speculate to the degree in which it exists vs. sexism in the workplace... unless you have data?



essbee said:


> Again, this importance placed on clothing. I'm sure all the Enron chiefs were wearing suits when they were committing one of the biggest crimes in American history. Bush was probably wearing a suit when he ordered thousands of Americans to die at war. *The idea that clothing reflects character is pathetic.*


lolz. Why didn't you bring in Dahmer and Kazinski? Wait, a president sent soldiers to battle? Name me one president that didn't send a soldier to fight and die. The bolded part is probably one of the dumbest sentences on this thread, and I have tried to make the dumbest ones in some posts, but... let me put it this way, What type of clothing do you wear to a job interview? 




essbee said:


> Then, as I asked earlier, is it a totally normal response for people with children to be on guard around white men since white men are disproportionately responsible for child molesting? Are less white men hired for corporate jobs because white men are disproportionately responsible for corporate crimes? Are white men profiled for terrorism since most of the terrorism committed in this country's history has been perpetrated by white men(KKK, Sons of Liberty, etc.)? IF so why isn't any of this actually done? I didn't see white men being thrown into Guantanamo Bay in record numbers after Tim McVeigh's attack, did you?


 Don't forget about the Minutemen. Do you know what the term disproportionately means? It's a ratio based on the percentage X in comparison to stat Y. I would also like some proof of your claim. Guantanamo Bay is for foreign persons of interest. No American citizens are held in military off-shore prisions. They're held in Federal jails. Those laws didn't exist until AFTER Oklahoma City and 9/11. You should use the comparison between Christians and Muslims with the Guantanamo Bay analagy since Muslim men are being held prisoner there. Also, I would think that a mother would get paranoid if an adult stranger were to take an interest in her child regardless of race. 




essbee said:


> lmao, that would explain why the friend whose girlfriend was disowned by her family is a far more successful professional than any of the people in her family. Thanks for that insight on race relations.


 WTF are you talking about?




essbee said:


> My post from several pages ago:
> 
> " Make no mistake these are the same people that complain about affirmative action and only address the black people it helps (nevermind all the white women it helps)"
> 
> I appreciate you saying that b/c it makes my point all the more clear. I assume you're familiar with the huge benefit white women reaped from AA programs?


 I would like to see data on your claim that white women benefit more than black people.




essbee said:


> Is it fair to say you've never lived in the environments you're talking about? You just sound like any other *rush limbaugh fan* talking about something you have zero direct experience with. Is that fair to say?
> 
> The rest of your post makes my point about using Barkley and Cosby to justify saying what you want about blacks.


 You're right, in fact, I have only seen black people on the tv. I honestly wouldn't know what to do if I came across a black person. Do I wait until he/she talks to me. Do I avoid eye contact? Do I say, "What up dawg?" Do I make the Black Power fist? I just don't know!

I have actually live in ****ty **** crapholes before, where the ghetto-bird is constantly over my neighborhood everynight. I hated it. So I did what I needed to do to get out. Let me ask you, have you seen a violent crime happen? Have you feared for your life because you hear gunshots and don't know where they're coming from or aimed at? Knowing that your car IS most likely being broken into at the moment or someone on meth could bust into your apartment at any moment. Once you do, then you can say that rappers represent good qualities. Celebrating being a drug-dealing pimp(Snoop Dogg) or an ex-con who dealt drugs and got shot multiple times(50-Cent) is a terrible thing IMO, it's just morally and ethically wrong. I don't care what they do now, I care what they did then, and what IMAGE they purport to the public. 

Didn't Barkley and Cosby grow up in the Projects? You know, public housing? Don't they both have college degrees? What I most respect about them is that they want more educated black people. Is there something wrong with that? Is there something wrong with saying, "Hey, how about you learn stuff in school and stop trying to be a rapper or prefessional athlete? Why don't you go to college and become a professional at something that requires a degree?" Because the chances of success is less than 1%. That's 99 not-doctors, lawyers, or PhDs that tried to become a Pro-Athlete or celebrity. 

That Rush Limbaugh comment was low.... really low.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

HKF said:


> In my daily life I am probably closer to a Tiger Woods than a 50 Cent, but I don't like the Pedestals that "non-confrontational, toe-the-line black people" are put on.


And why is that? Do you take it up the *** just for the "white man" in order to get by? Or is it that being closer to a Tiger Woods is a key to success in life? Things like going to school, staying out of trouble, staying away from drug dealing, out of crime, getting a respectable job etc. gets you by in life? But wait wait wait... That's acting "white" right Coates? (I know this is a quote from HKF btw)



> While they are two extremes in my travails around them I can appreciate and learn from their positives as well as their negatives.


If you were a parent, and your son came back to you and you said "Hey what did you do today son?" And he said "Oh, I sold a ****load of crack on the corner of 5th Ave. and I shot a couple people who didn't pay up. But this is just a part time job until I make it big in the rap game." What would you say? Can you "appreciate" that lifestyle? Can you "appreciate" the other side? How would you "appreciate" your son's decisions? I would suggest you would beat his ***, and tell him to get his *** in school. But ****... That's acting white... Crap... Well I guess you just can't do much there huh? Don't want to conform to the white mans standards now do we? 

Does that make 50 cent a bad person? No... He mad poor decisions in his early life, and luckily got out. Now he's a multi-millionaire entrepreneur. But how many 50 cents are there in comparisons to those dead on the street? As a parent would you ever wish that route for your child? I would except not. What is wrong with saying "Hey son, I think you should go to school and get a good job. Look at "Chris Gardner (guy from Pursuit of Happyness) He worked really hard, and now he's a successful rich man. But it took a lot of hard work, patience, and patience" 

Now if you're same son came back and said "Hey dad, just got back from the course. I just got accepted into Stanford! So if this golf thing doesn't work out I have a degree to go back on." Nah... That's not something we would want to emulate. Not something we would look up to now is it? That's the white man's world again. They're not saying to act like Tiger Woods because he has lived a life of hard work, education, excelled in his craft, has been financially smart, and at least in the media appears to be a nice and honest guy... Nah... What they're really trying to say is "Act white" Therefore, it's not something you should look up to.



> People get offended when people say "act more like Tiger Woods" because all that comes with it. That statement doesn't exist in a bubble, it comes with a lot of other stuff. Act like Tiger Woods is a euphemism for "act white". You can deny it, but that's the truth.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

You're using the wrong hypotheticals here. If I were to have children I would do everything I could to provide them an environment that they wouldn't be forced to slang rocks on the corner. I am from a middle class home (two parent household, when Queens was still considered Suburban) and yet my brother still went to prison for selling drugs. What does that tell you?

Man a young person can mess up at any point in their life. My brother was an adult (21) when he messed up and he's been locked up for 10 years. He gets out this month. He was arrested before the bling bling song was ever even released. So was it Hip Hop that made him deal drugs or was it the fact that it was easy money? I'll go with the latter.

He made a bad choice and he paid the price. He understands that now. He's a good person who made a mistake and then had this country's outdated laws take his youth from him (if he's in Europe he gets out in less than six months). I think the message of 50 cent is don't sell drugs because you can really get in some bad situations (he did get shot after all), however the man is more talented and smarter than we give him credit for.

He is now worth well over 250 million dollars from his music, fashion, acquisition of Vitamin Water stock then it being bought by Coke. Somewhere along the line he had good business sense even though people are saying he is just a rapping fool. Now who's laughing. As he says, "I'm laughing straight to the bank with this." 

As for your question Hibachi about do I act a certain way around whites? The answer is yes, because I don't feel like dealing with the prejudicial views of people. Even though I grew up in NYC and went to school in the Midwest, I don't feel comfortable around whites for the most part, because when I was in school they always looked at me as a "safe *****." 

Like I'm non-confrontational and I'll take their bigotted crap and let it fly. I just chose not to fight a battle I couldn't win in a place that I was there to learn at, not make friends. People thought I actually got into a private school because of Affirmative Action for goodness sake (not realizing that a private school always takes MONEY first, not race). 

I really don't have anything against white people, I mean my mother's side is as Jewish as it gets. I just don't like how black people are treated. Am I a typical inner city black guy? Probably not, but then again I don't know a typical inner city black guy either. I've met so many diverse black people that I can't say say they're all one way.

Some are ignorant, some are mediocre, some are talented, some are brilliant, most a regular folk. I'm not really arguing with you either, but I guess my biggest problem with white people in general is that they see someone black who pretty much acts like them on a major stage. Yet the vast majority of these people look at it as I'm just gonna make my money and keep quiet.

That's what Jordan did. Dude said why F w/White America, because I want to get my bread. I bet that's why Barkley's so mad. If he would have kept his mouth shut, stayed in shape and just played ball, he might have had more endorsements than MJ.

There's profit in Tokenism, even though I don't like that, that America has to be that way. Such is life.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

HKF said:


> You're using the wrong hypotheticals here. If I were to have children I would do everything I could to provide them an environment that they wouldn't be forced to slang rocks on the corner. I am from a middle class home (two parent household, when Queens was still considered Suburban) and yet my brother still went to prison for selling drugs. What does that tell you?
> 
> Man a young person can mess up at any point in their life. My brother was an adult (21) when he messed up and he's been locked up for 10 years. He gets out this month. He was arrested before the bling bling song was ever even released. So was it Hip Hop that made him deal drugs or was it the fact that it was easy money? I'll go with the latter.
> 
> He made a bad choice and he paid the price. He understands that now. He's a good person who made a mistake and then had this country's outdated laws take his youth from him (if he's in Europe he gets out in less than six months). I think the message of 50 cent is *don't sell drugs because you can really get in some bad situations *(he did get shot after all), however the man is more talented and smarter than we give him credit for.


Man, Fooey, is this your view about drug dealing? A "bad choice"? A "mistake"? 
Let me try to put it into context by asking you this (and in a rude manner, please don't be offended): Do you know if your brother has ever killed anyone providing them with drugs? 

And no, a drug dealer in Europe doesn't "get out in less than six months". Are you kidding?



> He is now worth well over 250 million dollars from his music, fashion, acquisition of Vitamin Water stock then it being bought by Coke. Somewhere along the line he had good business sense even though people are saying he is just a rapping fool. Now who's laughing. As he says, "I'm laughing straight to the bank with this."


Wouldn't you say, then, that 50 Cent is going "white" with his business enterprises?



> As for your question Hibachi about do *I act a certain way around whites? The answer is yes*, because I don't feel like dealing with the prejudicial views of people. Even though I grew up in NYC and went to school in the Midwest, I don't feel comfortable around whites for the most part, because when I was in school they always looked at me as a "safe *****."


Sorry, my man, but that's called racism...



> Like I'm non-confrontational and I'll take their bigotted crap and let it fly. I just chose not to fight a battle I couldn't win in a place that I was there to learn at, not make friends. People thought I actually got into a private school because of Affirmative Action for goodness sake (not realizing that a private school always takes MONEY first, not race).


If the response to stupidity or biggoty is developing certain issues regarding white people as a whole, it's still the wrong response.



> I really don't have anything against white people, I mean my mother's side is as Jewish as it gets.


Is this the 00's version of "I don't have anything against black people, I have many black friends" or something like that?



> I just don't like how black people are treated. Am I a typical inner city black guy? Probably not, but then again I don't know a typical inner city black guy either. *I've met so many diverse black people that I can't say say they're all one way*.


And still the white people is? Why?



> *Some are ignorant, some are mediocre, some are talented, some are brilliant, most a regular folk. *I'm not really arguing with you either, but I guess my biggest problem with white people in general is that they see someone black who pretty much acts like them on a major stage. Yet the vast majority of these people look at it as I'm just gonna make my money and keep quiet.


Dude, your describing everybody of every race, sex or creed!


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

There's some real talk in this thread. 

I don't anything to add that Coatesvillian, HKF, esbee, HB, Hibachi, Iceman, and others haven't. I'll say this, however, and I'll say it straight up: the majority of white people will never "get it". Period, end of story. Racism really isn't breeding out at all. It's just as bad as it was back in the day, except it is a different form now. I thank God that for some minorities, racism isn't so blatant and physically threatening. That is blessing and I'm thankful for it. However, the important part of racism, the ideologies that drive it, haven't moved an inch. The advantage that racism gives whites is just too large for most whites to jump off the bandwagon, whether they know they're on it or not. So recently, I've pretty much come to that conclusion. Considering that, the only white person I can stand to be around for prolonged amounts of time is my mom. Not that she isn't racist, because she is at times, but because (unlike other white people) I've been able to see her for who she is and have received genuine love from her, so I can tolerate her racist views, even when confronting them. I just broke off a relationship with my main homeboy from middle school through high school and racism had a lot to do with it. He's one of those white people that thinks he's enlightened because he took black history courses and his three best friends are black. I could explain it a thousand ways to him and he'd never get it. Ever. It came to the point where I just couldn't tolerate it and that catalyzed some more fundamental problems in the relationship to bring it to an end. My grandma thinks I'm a drug dealer. One of my other former best friend's moms thought I was in a gang because she saw me wearing a du-rag. Another of my other former best friend's started addressing my as "dawg" after we had our first real conversation about race. Social spaces that are more anonymous like the internet and some forms of writing continue to show that white people's behaviors in those forums towards minorities vary greatly from what they'll tell a minority. At the end of the day, there's still segregation - a ton of it. The weird thing is that I'm more comfortable around groups of white people than groups of black people, even if I do spend most of my time around black people. These are things the majority of white people simply won't get. I've seen a few white people who were incredibly ignorant break through (one on this board) but it's rare. I'm not gonna be like Bill Cosby, so I've got to get to the point where I become less confrontational. Kinda like HKF said, be proactive and avoid "real" contact as much as possible. I'm a person that hates putting on two faces, almost to a fault, but it has pretty much come down to that. Now it's a matter of making the necessary changes in my life in order to be around racist people and things as little as possible. Am I on a soapbox? Yes, and I don't feel the need to apologize about it. I think this country has beaten the emotion out of black people so much that we forget how traumatizing racism has been and continues to be for us. Not that being black automatically makes you the most victimized in society because life is more complicated than that. But depending on who you are and where you're at, things do tend to be more or less difficult compared to others. This is what white people in the U.S., on the whole, will simply never get and why conversations on these boards and elsewhere rarely amount to anything productive. If people in positions of privilege cannot come to grips with that (even when taking into consideration that there are multiple statuses and factors that go into a person's life outcome), nothing changes.


----------



## thatsnotgross (Dec 4, 2006)

For now, because I'm still trying to read through.. all I can say is just wow. People here make Bogut look like a klansman yet there are some truly discrimination here AGAINST WHITES. Hilarious.


----------



## Coatesvillain (Jul 17, 2002)

Hibachi! said:


> And why is that? Do you take it up the *** just for the "white man" in order to get by? Or is it that being closer to a Tiger Woods is a key to success in life? Things like going to school, staying out of trouble, staying away from drug dealing, out of crime, getting a respectable job etc. gets you by in life? But wait wait wait... That's acting "white" right Coates? (I know this is a quote from HKF btw)


Is that what I said? That not involving one self in crime, going to school, getting a respectable job is white? I mean, is that really what I said? Really now?

No, it's not what I said. I don't even know if it's worth explaining. The whole "act black" and "act white" thing isn't something I created, it's been around for a long time. There are plenty of people that do all the right things, graduate and become successful in fields who aren't accepted like Tiger. Reason for that is how they carry themselves, how they speak, how they act and whatever. When people see Tiger Woods they rarely even associate him with college or any of that stuff, they see who he is, how he acts, how he carries himself. They attribute how he acts to acting white. If you're denying that people say that.. I don't know.

You know how I know this? I learned this first hand. Going to high school some of my friends took to calling me "White Tim". I mean, at the time I saw nothing wrong with it.. but now that I understand it, it's hard to stomach the fact that I didn't get upset about it. Why was I called "white"? Didn't deal drugs, didn't get into trouble, I spoke well, I was safe and I didn't even know it. To them I acted white, and I didn't completely understand it.



> If you were a parent, and your son came back to you and you said "Hey what did you do today son?" And he said "Oh, I sold a ****load of crack on the corner of 5th Ave. and I shot a couple people who didn't pay up. But this is just a part time job until I make it big in the rap game." What would you say? Can you "appreciate" that lifestyle? Can you "appreciate" the other side? How would you "appreciate" your son's decisions? I would suggest you would beat his ***, and tell him to get his *** in school. But ****... That's acting white... Crap... Well I guess you just can't do much there huh? Don't want to conform to the white mans standards now do we?


You're really mad aren't you? Like your adrenaline starts pumping, blood rushes to the face? All that?

I mean because you make some hypotheticals that exist only in some bad B-movies. Like really, I think before school in this hypothetical.. I'd tell my son to try out the next big time dance battle, I hear there's like a $30,000 prize. Get in that and he could pay for some of his education.



> Does that make 50 cent a bad person? No... He mad poor decisions in his early life, and luckily got out. Now he's a multi-millionaire entrepreneur. But how many 50 cents are there in comparisons to those dead on the street? As a parent would you ever wish that route for your child? I would except not. What is wrong with saying "Hey son, I think you should go to school and get a good job. Look at "Chris Gardner (guy from Pursuit of Happyness) He worked really hard, and now he's a successful rich man. But it took a lot of hard work, patience, and patience"


How many people do what Chris Gardner did and end up millionaires compared to those who end up getting their kids taking from them because of failure as they go from one hustle to the next? Don't act like Chris Gardner is some ideal, hell.. to be honest both he and 50 Cent are hustlers in one form of another and that's why they found their success.



> Now if you're same son came back and said "Hey dad, just got back from the course. I just got accepted into Stanford! So if this golf thing doesn't work out I have a degree to go back on." Nah... That's not something we would want to emulate. Not something we would look up to now is it? That's the white man's world again. They're not saying to act like Tiger Woods because he has lived a life of hard work, education, excelled in his craft, has been financially smart, and at least in the media appears to be a nice and honest guy... Nah... What they're really trying to say is "Act white" Therefore, it's not something you should look up to.


C'mon, you're smarter than that.

People tell people to be more like Tiger because of his background, or how he is? I'm not even supporting the whole "act white" "act black" thing, I'm just explaining and how it is, and that people carry this with them. Saying the thought pattern doesn't exist on both sides is being kinda naive.

Never did I say going to school was wrong, never did I say drug dealing was right. When I said people saw Tiger Woods as "acting white", why was the next example drug dealing? Why is the comparison that jumped up in this thread (before I interjected) Tiger Woods or 50 Cent? Why isn't it Tiger Woods or Pharrell Williams? I mean Pharrell ghost produced a track for Teddy Riley while he was still in high school, kept working at his craft became one half of the superstar production duo the Neptunes and the rest is history.

He never went to college, why isn't he compared to Tiger Woods? He found another angle and made it. Why is it 50 Cent instead? It's because it goes back to what people consider as acting white and acting black, no matter how conscious they are of it. The positive and negative generalizations that almost naturally flow with each, that we don't even know when they show up.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> He never went to college, why isn't he compared to Tiger Woods? He found another angle and made it. Why is it 50 Cent instead? It's because it goes back to what people consider as acting white and acting black, no matter how conscious they are of it. *The positive and negative generalizations that almost naturally flow with each, that we don't even know when they show up.*


I think you just called HKF a racist...


----------



## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

IceMan23and3 said:


> I have actually live in ****ty **** crapholes before, where the ghetto-bird is constantly over my neighborhood everynight. I hated it. So I did what I needed to do to get out. Let me ask you, have you seen a violent crime happen? Have you feared for your life because you hear gunshots and don't know where they're coming from or aimed at? Knowing that your car IS most likely being broken into at the moment or someone on meth could bust into your apartment at any moment. *Once you do, then you can say that rappers represent good qualities. Celebrating being a drug-dealing pimp(Snoop Dogg) or an ex-con who dealt drugs and got shot multiple times(50-Cent) is a terrible thing IMO, it's just morally and ethically wrong. I don't care what they do now, I care what they did then, and what IMAGE they purport to the public.*


Once again, you do just dont understand the bigger picture. Yeah, some artist rap about how they sold drugs and what not but that doesn't mean they're promoting it, at least not all of them. Look at it this way, if you had to choose between not selling drugs, cause it's just morally wrong, or not eating, and feeding your family ---- which would you choose? It's not such an easy decision for some of people, who can't afford to go to college or aren't furtunate enough to get a scholorship. Not everybody is fortunate enough to just "do what they need to do to get out". We're talking about places where people grew up, and their lives here, not just somewhere where they can just pick up and go. You have people who use selling drugs as a means to get out, and to relate to kids who aren't as furtunate as them and get a bigger message across. 

And Snoop Dogg is a very respected man in his community. Yeah, he raps about pimping on t.v. because that is what sells records and that is what coorporation companies are paying him for. Selling records. What he does with his own money is a different situation. I believe he is married, He gives alot back to his former highschool and even formed a youth football league to give young kids in alternative to selling drugs and joining gangs, like he did as a kid. He is highly involved in the foundation and even stated that his own son wasn't allowed on the team because his grades weren't good enough. Yeah he's not perfect but its not like isn't trying to better his communtiy. So what your saying is that, he did certain things when he was younger so your just going to hold that against him the rest of his life even though he's trying to provide a means for other kids to go a different route than him..... ? If so, then your logic priorities are just fundamently off base.



> Didn't Barkley and Cosby grow up in the Projects? You know, public housing? Don't they both have college degrees? *What I most respect about them is that they want more educated black people. *Is there something wrong with that? *Is there something wrong with saying, "Hey, how about you learn stuff in school and stop trying to be a rapper or prefessional athlete? Why don't you go to college and become a professional at something that requires a degree?" *Because the chances of success is less than 1%. That's 99 not-doctors, lawyers, or PhDs that tried to become a Pro-Athlete or celebrity.
> 
> That Rush Limbaugh comment was low.... really low.


Wow............what has this thread has come to. I bet you would like the idea that they want more "educated black people", as if black people aren't already educated. :lol: I think what Barkley is moreso concerned with is how the black community is percieved in the public eye and trying to bring awareness to the nation as a whole, since he is somewhat of a respected black man(meaning not perceived as a thug to the white community). I think this statement of his says it best ---- “If I weren't earning $3 million a year to dunk a basketball, most people on the street would run in the other direction if they saw me coming.” He understands that people recognize who he is and will listen to him due to his celebrity status. In his book he sites even the black men in which are held in such high esteem faced racism before they reached there celebritie status; ie Tiger Woods, notoriously circumspect about race, tells of being assaulted by white classmates on his first day of kindergarten. Barack Obama, speaking a month before winning the Senate race in Illinois, details the fine points of racially inclusive politics. Barkley makes such moments valuable by successfully uncovering the private lives of public figures. 

Primarily, the differnce between Bogut and Barkley is that Bogut(a foriegner who is new to the environment) comes off as calling out the black community where, Barkley(a man deeply entrenched in the american culture and the hip-hop environment) comes off as concerened member of the black communinty. Difference.......Barkley is trying to be constructive while Bogut is merely being ignorant and critical.

Bogut's approach to the situation merely portrays blacks as a problem people, rather than a people who share a problem common to all Americans. Confusing masculinity with swagger and intimidation is not a black thing but a national pastime. If black men abandon those strutting attitudes traditionally associated with American manhood, doesn't that put them at an even greater competitive disadvantage?


----------



## hogey11 (Aug 30, 2002)

essbee said:


> Who said I was drawing that conclusion based solely on this thread? I have an entire country's history as evidence that white people have certain feelings towards blacks. I said clearly, and several times, that this thread is a good REMINDER of the way blacks are viewed by whites.


Have you never thought that maybe a lot of people purely judge others based on their ACTIONS? 

I'm sorry if this offends you, but I have far less respect for somebody who idolizes materialism, regardless of race, nationality or gender. I'm just not cool with it. Thats why Andrew Bogut and a whole whack of other people hate. Its the actions, not the packaging.


----------



## hogey11 (Aug 30, 2002)

Power_Ballin said:


> Wow............what has this thread has come to. I bet you would like the idea that they want more "educated black people", as if black people aren't already educated. :lol:


Thats not what he said or implied. He said he respected the fact that they want *more* educated black people, meaning a relatively higher number of them. Look at the demographic charts; Its still a lower percentage than it should be, why not try to improve it? I'd call for all kids going to college, for that matter. 




> Primarily, the differnce between Bogut and Barkley is that Bogut(a foriegner who is new to the environment) comes off as calling out the black community where, Barkley(a man deeply entrenched in the american culture and the hip-hop environment) comes off as concerened member of the black communinty. Difference.......Barkley is trying to be constructive while Bogut is merely being ignorant and critical.
> 
> 
> Bogut's approach to the situation merely portrays blacks as a problem people, rather than a people who share a problem common to all Americans. Confusing masculinity with swagger and intimidation is not a black thing but a national pastime. If black men abandon those strutting attitudes traditionally associated with American manhood, doesn't that put them at an even greater competitive disadvantage?


Please show me again where he called out the black community exclusively?

.....

He gave an example in a league where 85% of the players are black. What kinda example did you think he was going to give? Who's white on the Bucks? He says what he sees, presumably. Nobody is going to say that its only black athletes who get into trouble with money or vocation, Every race is susceptibile to irresponsibility. He merely gave an example, and it referenced the stereotypes associated with young black men. Does he have some sort of hidden agenda against young black people that we don't know about? I sincerely doubt it. Is he in the wrong for using stereotypes so liberally? Maybe, but there is always a chance that the stereotypes he speaks of are the exact ones he sees in an ego-driven and high consumption industry. I don't think its entirely unfair that he used the example he did, especially considering how much rap/hip-hop culture is entrenched into basketball at this point in North America. I think People are reading way too much into this.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Why was I called "white"? Didn't deal drugs, didn't get into trouble, I spoke well, I was safe and I didn't even know it. To them I acted white, and I didn't completely understand it.


Who called you white Tim? The white guys or the black guys? Past experience would tell me it was the latter.


----------



## abwowang (Mar 7, 2006)

i wanna know about the compulsory tutoring he was talking about lol


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Hibachi! said:


> You're absolutely right... Because you have a problem with some hip hop artists with millions of fans representing a race... But posters on an Internet Basketball Forum surely do... Brilliant logic...


Nice reading comprehension. You obviously missed the part where I said I also have a nation's entire history and my own experiences as well as those of the people i know, and that this thread is just a reminder. 

Way to pay attention. 

*thumbs up*


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Hibachi! said:


> Some people are so thick... When the whole Columbine incident happened, and a couple other school shootings involving white students. Guess what happened? Marilyn Manson did it! He's to blame! Get him! Get him! A young man committed suicide... Guess who they went after? Judas Priest for their supposed "subliminal messages" in their songs. When the whole parental advisory sticker thing happened, guess who was on the "dirty 15" or whatever it was called... Predominately, white, heavy metal bands... They were corrupting the youth! KISS had a huge backlash... Mothers protested outside their concerts for "corrupting the youth"
> 
> But... Mainstream only comes down on black hip hop artists... Right? Cosby came out and said "There's a problem with young black America today" basically. And they basically gave a big **** YOU to Bill Cosby, citing the same reasons HKF did about basically not changing for white people. Furthermore, I find it funny that you talk about how you can't blame hip hop for anything. Normally, I am one of them. Words don't do anything, and I don't blame the WORDS of hip hop... But all you have to do is go down to EBB and check out the Hip Hop Forum... Underneath said forum is a slogan that is reciprocated by every hip hop artist, and fan. From Russel Simmons to Dr. Dre... "It isn't just music, it's a culture" So when crime is abundant, who do you think they'll blame?
> 
> ...


lmao, so if hip hop has only existed for approximately 30 years are you saying that we won't see a high level of crime in the inner city before hip hop began? I'm assuming that's the case?


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> Essbee, you really need to work on your reading comprehension skills.


Obviously. Because when you said Yi Jianlian's cousin probably made the sneakers that Yi was going to be selling and I said that was clearly a racist comment you found a way to excuse that just like all your other comments. No matter what some people say, no matter how thinly veiled the "code" is, plenty white people will always rush to their defense and say it was okay.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

thatsnotgross said:


> Since you are so keen on judging as a group please tell me the difference between a gay man and a black man?


Well let's see..

One is something that can be proven as a trait at birth directly as the result of the heritage of that person's parents. 

One is something that can be proven forensically with just a skeleton.

One was the basis of slavery in this country. 

One was a heritage that white people said in the constitution would make them only worth 3/5 of a white person.

One is capable in pairings of reproduction.

One was never categorized by its own civil rights leaders as "a lifestyle choice" only to be changed later due to the criticisms opened up by saying that.

One had its members systematically killed for trying to vote and read.




And the other is being gay. Let me know if you're still confused.



> you dislike gays but hate discrimination against blacks. Do you see the irony here.


]

No I don't, and you're using the term irony incorrectly. You mean hypocrisy, which would also be wrong since the two aren't comparable. I tutor children in English so if you need help you can pm me.



> This is why I can't take you seriously. I love it how people are against discrimination, OH BUT WAIT, you only dislike black discrimination. Everyone stereotypes the BLACK Community, saying they are all hip hop, 50 cent, gun shooting, champagne pouring on these "hoes", flash their bling, and all that. Yet, its acceptable to slam on gays. Do you see where I'm going at or you're just beating on your own drum at this point.


It depends on if you really believe that race and sexual orientation are the same thing. If you do, you're probably too stupid for me to explain anything to.



> How can one person take you seriously, when you only have a certain degree of discrimination.


This is an odd sentence.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> Man, Fooey, is this your view about drug dealing? A "bad choice"? A "mistake"?
> Let me try to put it into context by asking you this (and in a rude manner, please don't be offended): Do you know if your brother has ever killed anyone providing them with drugs?


I don't know firsthand, but he barely sold drugs. He went to jail because he didn't drop dime. He wasn't willing to get murdered for it. He'd rather spend 10 years in jail than tell the feds on a drug dealer and have his whole family fear of their lives.



> And no, a drug dealer in Europe doesn't "get out in less than six months". Are you kidding?


The drug laws in many European countries are not as puritanical as American laws. Especially for people who are 21 years of age, with no criminal record.




> Wouldn't you say, then, that 50 Cent is going "white" with his business enterprises?


I would say that 50 just straight up got his hustle on and made a bunch of money using people he would have never interacted with were not for his music. Good business savvy (like any other entrepreneur).




> Sorry, my man, but that's called racism...


The funny thing is, I have been to Europe a few times and I never feel the way I do. It's just the American I know.




> If the response to stupidity or biggoty is developing certain issues regarding white people as a whole, it's still the wrong response.


If people are going to be in fear of a group of young black people on the whole, then I will do my best to avoid those people.





> Is this the 00's version of "I don't have anything against black people, I have many black friends" or something like that?


It could be except my Great Grandfather was Jewish and my mother is a bi-racial woman. I interact with white people all the time (I have to in Hollywood), buy my inner circle is almost predominantly black save a few.



> And still the white people is? Why?


I guess you'd just have to walk in my shoes for a day with me and you'd see what I'm talking about. Heck, I don't really experience racism in my every day life because I won't stand for it, but that doesn't mean I haven't in the past and when I was less mature I just said f'it it's not worth it. I mean this country's history is so bad, we have things like "gentrification" and "white flight." For the most part, white America for the last 40+ years has been trying to get away from black people as fas as they can.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Power_Ballin said:


> Once again, you do just dont understand the bigger picture. Yeah, some artist rap about how they sold drugs and what not but that doesn't mean they're promoting it, at least not all of them. Look at it this way, *if you had to choose between not selling drugs, cause it's just morally wrong, or not eating, and feeding your family ---- which would you choose?* It's not such an easy decision for some of people, who can't afford to go to college or aren't furtunate enough to get a scholorship. Not everybody is fortunate enough to just "do what they need to do to get out". We're talking about places where people grew up, and their lives here, not just somewhere where they can just pick up and go. You have people who use selling drugs as a means to get out, and to relate to kids who aren't as furtunate as them and get a bigger message across.
> 
> And Snoop Dogg is a very respected man in his community. Yeah, he raps about pimping on t.v. because that is what sells records and that is what coorporation companies are paying him for. Selling records. What he does with his own money is a different situation. I believe he is married, He gives alot back to his former highschool and even formed a youth football league to give young kids in alternative to selling drugs and joining gangs, like he did as a kid. He is highly involved in the foundation and even stated that his own son wasn't allowed on the team because his grades weren't good enough. Yeah he's not perfect but its not like isn't trying to better his communtiy. So what your saying is that, he did certain things when he was younger so your just going to hold that against him the rest of his life even though he's trying to provide a means for other kids to go a different route than him..... ? If so, then your logic priorities are just fundamently off base.


 This is quite Markovian of you. The ends justify the means in your eyes, well from what I gathered in your post. If I had to choose between selling drugs, endagering myself and my family vs going hungry.... well you make the choice seem obvious right? Survival of the self vs. survival of others. I mean, no one has ever die from drugs before right? People don't get addicted and lose all sense of self and become prostitutes to pay for drugs right? Anyways, why should you care? You are just providing a service so that your kids can eat... why should it matter that people are dying everyday and families are being torn apart because of your selfishness? How many people would you have to sell drugs to in order to feed your family? 10? 20? 50? All of them to feed a couple of kids? But hey, it's morally okay though because you need food right?

I don't care what he does now. I care about what he did then, and what he celebrates now. Who cares if he is living a nice, normal life if his records and his represented life are all about pimping, drugs, and partying?




Power_Ballin said:


> I think what Barkley is moreso concerned with is how the black community is percieved in the public eye and trying to bring awareness to the nation as a whole, since he is somewhat of a respected black man(meaning not perceived as a thug to the white community). I think this statement of his says it best ---- “If I weren't earning $3 million a year to dunk a basketball, most people on the street would run in the other direction if they saw me coming.” He understands that people recognize who he is and will listen to him due to his celebrity status. In his book he sites even the black men in which are held in such high esteem faced racism before they reached there celebritie status; ie Tiger Woods, notoriously circumspect about race, tells of being assaulted by white classmates on his first day of kindergarten. Barack Obama, speaking a month before winning the Senate race in Illinois, details the fine points of racially inclusive politics. Barkley makes such moments valuable by successfully uncovering the private lives of public figures.
> 
> Primarily, the differnce between Bogut and Barkley is that Bogut(a foriegner who is new to the environment) comes off as calling out the black community where, Barkley(a man deeply entrenched in the american culture and the hip-hop environment) comes off as concerened member of the black communinty. Difference.......Barkley is trying to be constructive while Bogut is merely being ignorant and critical.


 I liked this part. Very well written. It shows that we agree even though we are saying things differently. Though motives aside, the effect is the same isn't it?


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> not really. He made Space Jam, starred in more Gatorade commercials, and everyone waited breathlessly as he sucked at baseball.


Really?

I simply cannot comprehend how others could intentionally pour salt in my open wound by insinuating that faults and mistakes in my life are in some way connected to my father's death.



> and stupidly means spending outside of your means


Lmao, you realize that since the Regan era our credit debt has been horrible and it has nothing to do with hip hop culture right?



> Since I doubt anyone has met EVERY individual of a certain race, creed, or gender, rote generalizations of behaviors of people dressed certain ways as well as of a certain race, creed, or gender does influence opinions of an individual upon meeting new individuals.


So to clarify, you think generalizations of black men based on crime statistics is justified (you said earlier it was reasonable to be scared of black men not wearing suits) BECAUSE you haven't met them all? Isn't that backwards?




> i was thinking de facto segregation... Covert racism still exists, but I don't know to what extent though... and you can only speculate to the degree in which it exists vs. sexism in the workplace... unless you have data?


I see you're avoiding the point. Do you believe that sexism stopped when laws were passed against it? I'm talking both overt and hidden.



> lolz. Why didn't you bring in Dahmer and Kazinski? Wait, a president sent soldiers to battle? Name me one president that didn't send a soldier to fight and die. The bolded part is probably one of the dumbest sentences on this thread, and I have tried to make the dumbest ones in some posts, but... let me put it this way, What type of clothing do you wear to a job interview?


Sure throw them in there too. When you see reports on Dahmer why isn't his race an issue in people's reactions? Why aren't those criminals projected to represent the entire race? At some point you'll have to realize, criminals are in suits just as much as they're in hoodies.




> Don't forget about the Minutemen. Do you know what the term disproportionately means? It's a ratio based on the percentage X in comparison to stat Y. I would also like some proof of your claim.


Interesting, are we posting stats now? Where exactly have you been posting stats to support your positions?



> No American citizens are held in military off-shore prisions. They're held in Federal jails. Those laws didn't exist until AFTER Oklahoma City and 9/11.




link

"These detainees were predominantly foreign nationals of Muslim countries, but a few U.S. and U.K. citizens were also detained."





> Also, I would think that a mother would get paranoid if an adult stranger were to take an interest in her child regardless of race.


It wasn't about taking "interest" since it was simply said that being afraid of black men due to the overall crime rates is a normal response. Are you generally afraid when you see white men that they might be domestic terrorists or child molesters? 




> I would like to see data on your claim that white women benefit more than black people.


Where was that said? I said that whenever white people mention affirmative action they make it a black and white issue. This ignores the benefits given not only to other minorities but to white women. If it was purely racial why were white women able to benefit so much, and why do you think it is that white people so often fail to mention the white women that were helped by the program?

Go ahead and find where I said that white women were helped MORE than black people by Affirmative Action. Go ahead. This was the quote



> " Make no mistake these are the same people that complain about affirmative action and only address the black people it helps (nevermind all the white women it helps)"
> 
> I appreciate you saying that b/c it makes my point all the more clear. I assume you're familiar with the huge benefit white women reaped from AA programs?





> Have you feared for your life because you hear gunshots and don't know where they're coming from or aimed at?


 I think it's safe to say I know more about those neighborhoods than you do.



> Once you do, then you can say that rappers represent good qualities. Celebrating being a drug-dealing pimp(Snoop Dogg) or an ex-con who dealt drugs and got shot multiple times(50-Cent) is a terrible thing IMO, it's just morally and ethically wrong.


I assume you have the same perspective on the Sopranos, Godfather, every 80's vigilante action movie, every serial killer movie (silence of the lambs), every movie that shows cops getting killed, etc.?



> What I most respect about them is that they want more educated black people. Is there something wrong with that? Is there something wrong with saying, "Hey, how about you learn stuff in school and stop trying to be a rapper or prefessional athlete? Why don't you go to college and become a professional at something that requires a degree?"


All that is great. Bill Cosby has done a ton to personally see to it that a lot of black people go to college. The question remains whether or not his perspective is the only one that exists.



> That Rush Limbaugh comment was low.... really low.


If I predicted, SEVERAL PAGES before you said it, that white people would rush in and start talking about how affirmative action is unfair b/c of what it gives to black people as reverse discrimination, and then you said it almost verbatim, how can I not call you a rush limbaugh fan? You don't think it's weird that I knew EXACTLY what you would say?


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

essbee said:


> Well let's see..
> 
> * One is something that can be proven as a trait at birth directly as the result of the heritage of that person's parents.
> *
> ...


Wow. You really hate gay people! Let me clarify the TRUE differences in race. The difference between black and white is a simple genetic allele responsible for the production of melanin(tanning) in the epidermis. The amount of translated protein in a black person is much higher than that of a white person even though both have the same protein. So to discriminate on a person due to his color of skin is the same (genetically) as discriminating against someone for being hairy. As for the gay part. Not much is known about the genetic constitution the the neural pathway development. In fact, recent studies have shown that homosexual men respond with the same brain pattern as heterosexual females when introduced to male pheremones (sweat/odor). Heterosexual males do not exhibit this reaction in the brain leading one to conclude that there are genetic factors in the development of sexual orientation as well as cultural ones.




essbee said:


> It depends on if you really believe that race and sexual orientation are the same thing. If you do, you're probably too stupid for me to explain anything to.


Wow, genetics have everything to do with EVERY physical attribute and mental faculty that we have today. If you don't believe me, here's some good literature on that.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

> Affirmative action has increased the hiring, promotion, job stability, and wages of women and minorities. Affirmative action has opened workplace doors for women of all colors who historically have been excluded from better-paying and high-status jobs.
> 
> Between 1970 and 1990, the proportion of women physicians doubled from 7.6% to 16.9%1 From 1973 to 1993, the percentage of women lawyers and judges grew from 5.8% to 22.7%; and engineers from 1.3% to 8.6%.2
> 
> ...


link




> Affirmative Action hasn’t had nearly as big an impact on academic hiring, good or bad, as people on both sides of the issue like to claim, a new book says. In fact, the biggest beneficiaries of hiring preferences have been white academics—white female academics, this is.
> 
> White men, though losing their stranglehold on faculty posts, still hold the bulk of academic jobs. In 1970, white men constitute 68 percent of the professoriate at all institutions. By 1991, they had slipped to 59 percent. “Job opportunities for white males have gone down,” Mr. Rai says, “but they’re still overrepresented.” Most losses suffered by white males were offset by gains by white women, who climbed from 23 percent of the professoriate in 1970 to 28.5 percent in 1991. The result: Whites still dominate the professoriate, Mr. Rai says.


link



> Texaco Is Said To Set Payment Over Sex Bias
> 
> DISPLAYING ABSTRACT - Texaco Inc has agreed to pay $3.1 million to 186 women who were found by Labor Department to have been systematically underpaid relative to their male counterparts; agreement is largest under Labor Department affirmative action compliance program; agreement follows several years of efforts by Texaco to deal with separate allegations of racial discrimination made by minority employees; Labor Sec Alexis M Herman comments


re: sexism and racism being overt



> A recent Labor Department report showed that out of the 3000 discrimination cases filed in Federal court between 1990 and 1994, less than three percent allege reverse discrimination and only six of these were upheld as meritorious (Hearings on Affirmative Action in Employment, 1995).


Revese Discrimination complaint



There was a department of labor study done in the mid-90's that suggested that white women were the largest beneficiaries overall from Affirmative Action. I can look for it if need be. Either way the question remains, why is AA always made a black/white issue by white people when not only did other minorities benefit but so did white women in large numbers?

Answer: White people always want to perpetuate the stereotype that blacks are dependent and rely on programs (welfare discussions are usually the same) in order to do anything. Talking about how much Asians and white women have been helped won't really make that point, so they ignore it, which is why I knew people would bring it up before *they* even realized it. It's a programmed response.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> I assume you have the same perspective on the Sopranos, Godfather, every 80's vigilante action movie, every serial killer movie (silence of the lambs), every movie that shows cops getting killed, etc.?


:sigh: Some people just don't get it do they? Rappers at least "claim" that this is the life they REALLY live... Therefore, there are millions who try to emulate said lifestyle. Although, hip hop is obviously not completely responsible for gang violence, as gang violence has existed for ages... However, in a civilized nation, having millions trying to use a culture based on the lives of said hip hop artists isn't exactly the greatest thing in the world. Nobody sees Rambo and heads to the jungle to go rip someones neck out with their bare hands... 

As far as the Jordan thing is concerned... So what? What is the media known for? Speculation... Uncovering... Conspiracies... Can you name one professional player who is a hero and someone you want to emulate in the eyes of many, yet the media hasn't exposed their flaws? Babe Ruth and his alcoholism is widely known, Jordan with his gambling and his spousal problems, Curt Schilling and the media speculation about the blood in his sock being fake, etc. Every celebrity, white or black, once even the slightest issue comes up, the media blows it up. How does that prove anything?

The issue lies with the same thing HKF brought up, and even Coates did to a certain extent. Going to school, being respectful, getting good grades, and getting a good job is considered "acting white" and are sellouts. I found this article quite interesting on this issue.



> The black parents wanted an explanation. Doctors, lawyers, judges, and insurance brokers, many had come to the upscale Cleveland suburb of Shaker Heights specifically because of its stellar school district. They expected their children to succeed academically, but most were performing poorly. African-American students were lagging far behind their white classmates in every measure of academic success: grade-point average, standardized test scores, and enrollment in advanced-placement courses. On average, black students earned a 1.9 GPA while their white counterparts held down an average of 3.45. Other indicators were equally dismal. It made no sense.





> Professor John Ogbu had spent decades studying how the members of different ethnic groups perform academically. He'd studied student coping strategies at inner-city schools in Washington, DC. He'd looked at African Americans and Latinos in Oakland and Stockton and examined how they compare to racial and ethnic minorities in India, Israel, Japan, New Zealand, and Britain. His research often focused on why some groups are more successful than others.





> The professor and his research assistant moved to Shaker Heights for nine months in mid-1997. They reviewed data and test scores. The team observed 110 different classes, from kindergarten all the way through high school. They conducted exhaustive interviews with school personnel, black parents, and students. Their project yielded an unexpected conclusion: *It wasn't socioeconomics, school funding, or racism, that accounted for the students' poor academic performance; it was their own attitudes, and those of their parents.*





> *Ogbu concluded that the average black student in Shaker Heights put little effort into schoolwork and was part of a peer culture that looked down on academic success as "acting white."* Although he noted that other factors also play a role, and doesn't deny that there may be antiblack sentiment in the district, he concluded that discrimination alone could not explain the gap.
> 
> "The black parents feel it is their role to move to Shaker Heights, pay the higher taxes so their kids could graduate from Shaker, and that's where their role stops," Ogbu says during an interview at his home in the Oakland hills. "They believe the school system should take care of the rest. They didn't supervise their children that much. They didn't make sure their children did their homework. That's not how other ethnic groups think."





> In the months since publication of his book, *he's been called a sellout with no heart for his own people*, and dismissed entirely by critics who say his theory is so outrageous it isn't even worth debating. It is not surprising that Ogbu himself is now a bit uncomfortable discussing his own conclusions, although he has not backed down at all. After all, many scholars are eager to blame everything but black culture for the scholastic woes of African Americans. "I look below the surface," he says, in response to his many critics. "They don't like it."





> I found it interesting, because I too had a period in my life where I was living below my potential by failing to apply myself and blaming others for putting me into the situation. Others did indeed put me into that situation and a high achieving friend I admired told me that he thought so too.
> 
> He told about a quote from a movie about a guy whose situation and attitude were similar to mine.
> 
> ...


http://www.eastbayexpress.com/2003-05-21/news/rich-black-flunking/1


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> . *By 1991*, they had slipped to 59 percent. “Job opportunities for white males have gone down,” Mr. Rai says, “but they’re still overrepresented.” Most losses suffered by white males were offset by gains by white women, who climbed from 23 percent of the professoriate in 1970 to 28.5 percent in 1991. The result: Whites still dominate the professoriate, Mr. Rai says


Mm... Nothing says accurate quite like a 16 year old study. I'm going to go listen to my MC Hammer cassette


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Hibachi! said:


> Mm... Nothing says accurate quite like a 16 year old study. I'm going to go listen to my MC Hammer cassette



Says the guy with an avatar of someone who has been dead for what... 11 years? did you stop liking his songs after 5 years? Do you have any actual evidence that the study is inaccurate?


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Hibachi! said:


> :sigh: Some people just don't get it do they? Rappers at least "claim" that this is the life they REALLY live...


What does that have to do with the quote I was responding to?

He said.. I'm separating this quote for the slow people like you..



> Celebrating being a drug-dealing pimp(Snoop Dogg) or an ex-con who dealt drugs and got shot multiple times(50-Cent) is a terrible thing IMO, it's just morally and ethically wrong.





> Therefore, there are millions who try to emulate said lifestyle. Although, hip hop is obviously not completely responsible for gang violence, as gang violence has existed for ages... However, in a civilized nation, having millions trying to use a culture based on the lives of said hip hop artists isn't exactly the greatest thing in the world. Nobody sees Rambo and heads to the jungle to go rip someones neck out with their bare hands...


Did Charles Bronson movies create vigilantism? I mean that's do-able right? Was prohibition crime created by the media? Was organized crime influenced by godfather movies? In other words what evidence is there that hip hop is creating crime based on anything else in this nation's history?



> As far as the Jordan thing is concerned... So what? What is the media known for? Speculation... Uncovering... Conspiracies... Can you name one professional player who is a hero and someone you want to emulate in the eyes of many, yet the media hasn't exposed their flaws? Babe Ruth and his alcoholism is widely known, Jordan with his gambling and his spousal problems, Curt Schilling and the media speculation about the blood in his sock being fake, etc.


Are you trying to say that those things are comparable to the media saying that Jordan's father was killed b/c of Jordan's gambling debts?

Iceman said that Jordan's gambling issues weren't brought up when his father died. I used the article to remind him that they were since he apparently wasn't watching the NBA when it happened. Again, try reading the entire conversation before you respond.










http://www.eastbayexpress.com/2003-05-21/news/rich-black-flunking/1[/QUOTE]


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Hibachi! said:


> :sigh: Some people just don't get it do they? Rappers at least "claim" that this is the life they REALLY live... Therefore, there are millions who try to emulate said lifestyle. Although, hip hop is obviously not completely responsible for gang violence, as gang violence has existed for ages... However, in a civilized nation, having millions trying to use a culture based on the lives of said hip hop artists isn't exactly the greatest thing in the world. Nobody sees Rambo and heads to the jungle to go rip someones neck out with their bare hands...


This is funny. How many people do you honestly think buy albums? You want to wager that the majority of people that actually buy these hiphop albums are not blacks. So how can a rapper hold so much clout amongst black people

Also I find it funny that you think there is a difference between violence on TV and a rap CD that more than likely has been heavily edited. So there is nothing wrong with the Vic Mackeys and the Bauers of television but the 50s and Snoops are bad 'role models'. Okie dokie


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

essbee said:


> Says the guy with an avatar of someone who has been dead for what... 11 years? did you stop liking his songs after 5 years? Do you have any actual evidence that the study is inaccurate?


You're using percentages... If I gave you statistics about percentages of illegal immigrants in America, and then I provided you with a 16 year old study, what would you think? Those numbers are irrelevant to today's day and age.

What the hell does that have to do with TuPac? Did he rap about percentages and demographics? That doesn't make any sense. This isn't a rap song, these are numbers and statistics that have quite obviously changed in 16 years.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

HB said:


> This is funny. How many people do you honestly think buy albums? You want to wager that the majority of people that actually buy these hiphop albums are not blacks. So how can a rapper hold so much clout amongst black people
> 
> Also I find it funny that you think there is a difference between violence on TV and a rap CD that more than likely has been heavily edited. So there is nothing wrong with the Vic Mackeys and the Bauers of television but the 50s and Snoops are bad 'role models'. Okie dokie


Once again... I use the quote reciprocated constantly through hip hop artists and hip hop enthusiasts... "It isn't just music, it's a culture"


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Hibachi! said:


> You're using percentages... If I gave you statistics about percentages of illegal immigrants in America, and then I provided you with a 16 year old study, what would you think? Those numbers are irrelevant to today's day and age.
> 
> What the hell does that have to do with TuPac? Did he rap about percentages and demographics? That doesn't make any sense. This isn't a rap song, these are numbers and statistics that have quite obviously changed in 16 years.


Um.. because due to complaints most of the studies of affirmative action were done in the mid 90's when it was more of a hot button topic? People have been systematically removing it since then. 

Actually the statistics of the TIME PERIOD that was studied, which in this case was the time period for the decades mentioned, would not change. That's relevant because that time period is the one where the impact was the greatest. The 20 year stats from 1970-1991 will not CHANGE. Affirmative action first started being enforced in the mid to late 60's so how exactly is the 20 years after that not the most logical time period to study?


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Hibachi! said:


> Once again... I use the quote reciprocated constantly through hip hop artists and hip hop enthusiasts... "It isn't just music, it's a culture"


A culture that also includes non-violent rappers and graff, breakdancing and turntablists. Oh no somebody help me I'm being corrupted by Mixmaster Mike and DJ Babu.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Hibachi! said:


> Once again... I use the quote reciprocated constantly through hip hop artists and hip hop enthusiasts... "It isn't just music, it's a culture"


You have no idea what is meant by hiphop culture


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

essbee said:


> A culture that also includes non-violent rappers and graff, breakdancing and turntablists. Oh no somebody help me I'm being corrupted by Mixmaster Mike and DJ Babu.


Once again... Read before you write... Follow your own advice. I was responding to HB and his sentiment that there is no difference between shows like "24" and a rap cd. Which, because of the culture revolving around that music, there obviously is.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Hibachi! said:


> Once again... Read before you write... Follow your own advice. I was responding to HB and his sentiment that there is no difference between shows like "24" and a rap cd. Which, because of the culture revolving around that music, there obviously is.


And what is the culture revolving around the music? I have an idea where you are going with this, but I'd rather give you the benefit of the doubt


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Hibachi! said:


> Once again... Read before you write... Follow your own advice. I was responding to HB and his sentiment that there is no difference between shows like "24" and a rap cd. Which, because of the culture revolving around that music, there obviously is.


And what monolithic culture is that you're speaking of, oh mighty tupac fan? Is it the Pharcyde-loving hippes at Berkley? Is it the people like me listening to Pharoah Monche's new joint while I work on my web comic? Is it the nerds listening to Anticon? Is it the suburban white kids listening to 50 cent and driving a beamer their parents bought for them? Is it the latinos in LA listening to Orishas?

Go ahead and define "that culture".


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

HB said:


> You have no idea what is meant by hiphop culture


Oh I don't? I know that hip hop is unique in that it's probably the only musical form that is a reflection of a culture. A reflection of life. I believe that hip hop as we know it today has evolved from what it used to be. Hip hop grew out of racism, and nonacceptance from white culture. Hip hop became something black America could latch onto. Something they could call their own, and it involved into a nationwide phenomena. But there is a culture that REVOLVED around hip hop now. It is not merely a reflection of culture for at least YOUNG black America, it is their culture. It's a VAST piece of the culture. Therefore, words from 50 cent, hold alot more weight in the eyes of black America, than JACK BAUER does in 24... A fictionalized character... It holds more weight than Marilyn Manson, Slipknot, etc. Because they do not represent a vast piece of white American culture. That is why it is COMPLETELY different.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Hibachi! said:


> Oh I don't? I know that hip hop is unique in that it's probably the only musical form that is a reflection of a culture. A reflection of life. I believe that hip hop as we know it today has evolved from what it used to be. Hip hop grew out of racism, and nonacceptance from white culture. Hip hop became something black America could latch onto. Something they could call their own, and it involved into a nationwide phenomena. But there is a culture that REVOLVED around hip hop now. *It is not merely a reflection of culture for at least YOUNG black America, it is their culture. It's a VAST piece of the culture. Therefore, words from 50 cent, hold alot more weight in the eyes of black America*, than JACK BAUER does in 24... A fictionalized character... It holds more weight than Marilyn Manson, Slipknot, etc. Because they do not represent a vast piece of white American culture. That is why it is COMPLETELY different.


In this day and time, Can you honestly say hiphop culture solely belongs to 'blacks'? Do you know how expansive hiphop is? Essbee in his last post gave you a tip off the iceberg of just how varied it can get? Check out hiphop sales in the last 10 years, I dont think its too far fetched to say that whites are the ones that buy the most hiphop cds? I dont hear you saying 50 and Snoop have a negative influence on young white males.

And stop with the whole words from 50 cent holds more weight crap. People dont need 50 to live their lifes. The guy does not have as much clout as you make it out to be. He is no Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, and I am giving those guys too much credit for actually mentioning them


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

HB said:


> In this day and time, Can you honestly say hiphop culture solely belongs to 'blacks'? Do you know how expansive hiphop is? Essbee in his last post gave you a tip off the iceberg of just how varied it can get? Check out hiphop sales in the last 10 years, I dont think its too far fetched to say that whites are the ones that buy the most hiphop cds? I dont hear you saying 50 and Snoop have a negative influence on young white males.
> 
> And stop with the whole words from 50 cent holds more weight crap. People dont need 50 to live their lifes. The guy does not have as much clout as you make it out to be. He is no Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, and I am giving those guys too much credit for actually mentioning them


So is it your assumption that hip hop plays a greater role in white culture than it does in black culture?


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

essbee said:


> Really?
> 
> I simply cannot comprehend how others could intentionally pour salt in my open wound by insinuating that faults and mistakes in my life are in some way connected to my father's death.
> 
> ...





essbee said:


> So to clarify, you think generalizations of black men based on crime statistics is justified (you said earlier it was reasonable to be scared of black men not wearing suits) BECAUSE you haven't met them all? Isn't that backwards?


 I think that if a person feels uncomfortable, no matter what the rationale, they have a right to avoid that situation. Granted a lot of times it is unfounded and unfair, but in that person's eyes, they'd rather avoid 100 safe situation than get into that 1 that would end badly. You call it racism, but I just call it caution. Females get nervous when they're alone and they see a man that they don't know in the corner, is it rational that she jogs to her car? If you're walking by yourself in an area of town known for crime, and a group of men are walking towards you, would you get nervous? It's completely rational to get defensive. Now if we were to change the setting and you are in class and a black man sits down near you wearing 'thug' clothing, should you be unnerved? I wouldn't, but I would if I were alone at night and he started walking near me. I would if anyone started walking near me. 




essbee said:


> I see you're avoiding the point. Do you believe that sexism stopped when laws were passed against it? I'm talking both overt and hidden.


 No, discrimination has not stopped.



essbee said:


> Sure throw them in there too. When you see reports on Dahmer why isn't his race an issue in people's reactions? Why aren't those criminals projected to represent the entire race? At some point you'll have to realize, criminals are in suits just as much as they're in hoodies.


not true at all. Majority of crime occurs in impoverished areas regardless of race. It has to do with population density as a function of income to paraphrase my economics professor. While white collar crime does exist, most crime isn't that organized. I am willing to be that more convenience stores are robbed than corporations rob. Anyways why should you care about Enron and WorldCom? It wasn't the poor that they stole from, it was their investors -- middle/upper class... and me.




essbee said:


> It wasn't about taking "interest" since it was simply said that being afraid of black men due to the overall crime rates is a normal response. Are you generally afraid when you see white men that they might be domestic terrorists or child molesters?


Since I'm not a child nor have a child, I am not on the lookout for a child molester. And yes, I do have an irrational fear for vans that have no windows on them.... 
I get nervous when someone stares at me as I walk by. That's about it. 




essbee said:


> Where was that said? I said that whenever white people mention affirmative action they make it a black and white issue. This ignores the benefits given not only to other minorities but to white women. If it was purely racial why were white women able to benefit so much, and why do you think it is that white people so often fail to mention the white women that were helped by the program?
> 
> Go ahead and find where I said that white women were helped MORE than black people by Affirmative Action. Go ahead. This was the quote


So because it helps women, it is racist? I think that women are more oppressed than black people in society based on the fact that half of the population IS female, so wouldn't that justify more women getting benefits from AA than anyone else? You also forgot that black women benefit the most. For example, to get into medical school, you need to take the MCATs. These are the end-all be-all of your life. The average score is a 24 and the average admittance score is a 30. However, the average black male score for admittance is 26 whereas the average black female score for admittance is 24. I think that that is a good enough example of minorities benefitting from AA. While women may be benefitting more does not matter, the concept is for minorities to benefit, which includes women.




essbee said:


> I think it's safe to say I know more about those neighborhoods than you do.


ok, I don't really care. It's not something that I'm gonna want to fight over who has lived worse. I'm just stating that I have lived in a bad area. If you lived in worse, I'm sorry about that? But I take it that you are no longer there, nor am I. 



essbee said:


> I assume you have the same perspective on the Sopranos, Godfather, every 80's vigilante action movie, every serial killer movie (silence of the lambs), every movie that shows cops getting killed, etc.?


I think that they are worthless shows/movies. I don't like mobster movies or shows. Silence was an interesting perspective of the psyche of a serial killer. Wait, shows that show cops getting killed stopping bad guys? I am not against violence on tv. I just don't like watching movies or shows glorifying criminals... 



essbee said:


> All that is great. Bill Cosby has done a ton to personally see to it that a lot of black people go to college. The question remains whether or not his perspective is the only one that exists.


I am going to make a conclusion on this one, tell me if I am misinterpreting the intention, but perspective that black culture is fine vs. much improvement needs to be done? I don't know, could you clarify that point?



essbee said:


> If I predicted, SEVERAL PAGES before you said it, that white people would rush in and start talking about how affirmative action is unfair b/c of what it gives to black people as reverse discrimination, and then you said it almost verbatim, how can I not call you a rush limbaugh fan? You don't think it's weird that I knew EXACTLY what you would say?


When did I say that? If so, I'll start listening to the pill-popping hypocrite tomorrow... do you know what time and station he's on? Oh I'll look that up on the internet.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Hibachi! said:


> So is it your assumption that hip hop plays a greater role in white culture than it does in black culture?


Assumption? I am not assuming anything but you must know by now that I dont think rappers hold as much influence as you think they do. I listen to a lot of hiphop, but I dont let that dictate my life.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

HB said:


> Assumption? I am not assuming anything but you must know by now that I dont think rappers hold as much influence as you think they do. I listen to a lot of hiphop, but I dont let that dictate my life.


Fair enough, but I believe not only is it a reflection of black culture, but it is also an influence on it as well. Although, not as negative as many make it out to be. 

However, I'd be interested if esbee, Coates, or you would like to respond to that article I posted above.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

I didnt see the article, give me a minute to find it


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

Its an interesting article to say the least Hibachi. But are we supposed to use a small sample of students to define a whole race. How about the thousands and thousands of black students that do well in college, why aren't they suffering from the same problems Ogbu describes in that article

By the way, not that I am totally dismissing the article, they make some very solid points. Bottom line, I think each individual is the master of his or her own faith or is it destiny (whatever you want to call it).


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

HB said:


> By the way, not that I am totally dismissing the article, they make some very solid points. Bottom line, I think each individual is the master of his or her own faith or is it destiny (whatever you want to call it).


Which means, in terms of this quote... You and I are on the EXACT same page... You are the master of your OWN destiny, at least in America. No matter race, color, religion, you are the master of your own destiny. No better, no worse. But I think there are a few here that would disagree with that statement.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> I wouldn't, but I would if I were alone at night and he started walking near me. I would if anyone started walking near me.


you said only foreigners are held in Guantanamo, I pointed out that some US citizens were held there.

You said that affirmative action prevents white people from getting jobs they should and gives them to black people. I gave evidence showing that's not the case. 

You said Jordan's gambling wasn't focused on when his father was killed. I gave links to show that wasn't the case. I'm confused on what exactly you're using to support your positions?




> not true at all. Majority of crime occurs in impoverished areas regardless of race.


Then how can you say it has anything to do with hip hop as a culture? i'd point out all the crimes that the White House gets away with on a regular basis and talk about how connections have a way of getting white kids off a lot more than their counterparts but it's one of those "you'd have to see it to understand" type situations.



> Anyways why should you care about Enron and WorldCom? It wasn't the poor that they stole from, it was their investors -- middle/upper class... and me.


Uh... because we're talking about not fearing people in business suits?



> Since I'm not a child nor have a child, I am not on the lookout for a child molester. And yes, I do have an irrational fear for vans that have no windows on them....
> I get nervous when someone stares at me as I walk by. That's about it.


You said it was reasonable to fear black men because of crimes. I'm asking, quite simply, if you think it's also reasonable to fear that white men are terrorists and child molesters when you see them walking down a street. 




> So because it helps women, it is racist?


Uh.. no. Because it has heavily helped WHITE WOMEN you can't say that affirmative action is against white people unless you don't think white women are part of the white population. This was clearly explained and supporting articles were given.



> I think that women are more oppressed than black people in society based on the fact that half of the population IS female, so wouldn't that justify more women getting benefits from AA than anyone else?


Didn't you demand that I show evidence of white women benefiting from AA? Where is all this other commentary coming from when you haven't addressed the information that you DEMANDED I provide? 



> You also forgot that black women benefit the most.


Go ahead and provide the evidence that black women benefit more than any other group. After you do that, provide an explanation of how your points about AA weren't wrong, namely that AA is simply reverse racism that keeps white people from getting the jobs they deserve. These are all points you made, so defend them with facts. That's the new theme for the thread right? Making points and supporting them?

Thanks




> While women may be benefitting more does not matter, the concept is for minorities to benefit, which includes women.


It does matter if the women benefiting includes white women, since you said AA works against white people. I can't make the point any more simple. And women are not minorities since they comprise, traditionally, more than half of the population. Please look up the term "minority" and then understand why the phrase used is usually "women AND minorities."




> I think that they are worthless shows/movies. I don't like mobster movies or shows.


It's not enough for you to dislike them. I want you to show me how movies like that, which clearly glorify serial killing, have impacted white culture. In other words, create a counterpoint to your argument that hip hop is in any way responsible for the problems within the black community.

As always, we'll expect proof with statistics.




> I am going to make a conclusion on this one, tell me if I am misinterpreting the intention, but perspective that black culture is fine vs. much improvement needs to be done? I don't know, could you clarify that point?


Wrong. Every culture has problems, what are designated maladaptive traits by sociologists. Black culture is no exception. The idea that problems in black culture can be explained by talking about the music listened to in the communities is idiotic. The idea that the problems can be traced to the way people dress is idiotic. The idea that hip hop and black culture are synonomous is idiotic. The idea that the crime rates anywhere can be traced to the listening patterns of music is idiotic. The idea that any one thing is the source of any group's problems is idiotic.

Let me know if you're still confused.




> When did I say that? If so, I'll start listening to the pill-popping hypocrite tomorrow... do you know what time and station he's on? Oh I'll look that up on the internet.


Post #268, right after you said that black people comprise 40% of the population which I thought was funny.






IceMan23and3 said:


> So being on guard around black people is a totally normal response because while black people comprise 40% of the population, a disproportionate amount of crime is perpetrated by black people.
> 
> ...
> 
> I do not believe that people are actively opposing the advancement of black people in general, in fact I do believe that Affirmative Action is actually a form of reverse racism (which is still racism) in which white people of the same qualifications are excluded from a job/college if it is a decision between a white person or a black person.


my post, #168 in the thread, several pages before you even said it..



essbee said:


> Make no mistake these are the same people that complain about affirmative action and only address the black people it helps (nevermind all the white women it helps), complain about welfare and only address black people on welfare (white folks and subsidized white industries don't count), the same people that insist it's minorities keeping racism alive (judicial sentencing discrepancies are all in our imaginations), and the same people that complain about negative entertainment values presented in hip hop but then elect Arnold Swarzaneggar as the governor of the richest state in America


Let me know if you need links, I'm assuming giving you the post # is enough evidence.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Hibachi! said:


> However, I'd be interested if esbee, Coates, or you would like to respond to that article I posted above.



Now I'm confused. When I posted articles including studies by the Department of Labor, you dismissed it as being too old, and ignored all the other links. How does this work exactly? You just ignore the links I provide and then ask me to respond to yours?


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

essbee said:


> Now I'm confused. When I posted articles including studies by the Department of Labor, you dismissed it as being too old, and ignored all the other links. How does this work exactly? You just ignore the links I provide and then ask me to respond to yours?


Mine was from 2003... The one I responded to of yours was from 1991... Regardless, I will respond to said articles...

Those numbers can be in part due to affirmative action, and in part due to the advancement of society in general. I am sure there are more successful minorities and women now than there were in 1960. Is that because of affirmative action? I don't believe so. It does hold some who are discriminate accountable for their actions, but there are also negatives to that.

For example, I met with a representative of UCSB a while ago. I am applying for the Winter session, which is not very typical, as most apply for the Fall. He said and I quote (btw, he was black) "You do know it is a lot tougher to get into Winter. Not only do we accept less applicants, but we also use that time to fill certain... ... .... .... quotas. If we are too short of certain ethnicities, we have to accept them first, and then the remaining spots will go to the most qualified of the remaining applicants."

That's pretty ridiculous. How about we just remove the "race or ethnicity" part from the application completely? Then how do you discriminate if you don't even know what race they are? I am a firm believer that the most qualified should get the job. Using a government program to force quotas on businesses and schools is just dumb. There should be a better system.

Or how about a system where someone makes a case to a board that those being hired or promoted are less qualified or haven't performed the way you have? How about a system in which every employer has to keep track of what ethnicities and races are being hired. Then the hirer must provide a reason if needed as to why they are not employing said races? A system of FORCING, regardless of qualifications, seems pretty stupid to me. Although, my issue has ALOT more to do with schooling, than it does with jobs.


----------



## One on One (Dec 12, 2004)

Everyone's gotta sell out. It seems like a lot of the black people here just want to call it "acting white." It's not like all the white guys who want to be lawyers enjoy wearing a suit every day, but you gotta do it to fit in the profession. You gotta dress and act professionally for any white collar job.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

One on One said:


> Everyone's gotta sell out. It seems like a lot of the black people here just want to call it "acting white." It's not like all the white guys who want to be lawyers enjoy wearing a suit every day, but you gotta do it to fit in the profession. You gotta dress and act professionally for any white collar job.


So true...


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

Hibachi! said:


> Mine was from 2003... The one I responded to of yours was from 1991...


And yours wasn't a statistical analysis of 20 years of information..


----------



## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

this thread makes me sad.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

essbee said:


> you said only foreigners are held in Guantanamo, I pointed out that some US citizens were held there.
> 
> You said that affirmative action prevents white people from getting jobs they should and gives them to black people. I gave evidence showing that's not the case.
> 
> You said Jordan's gambling wasn't focused on when his father was killed. I gave links to show that wasn't the case. I'm confused on what exactly you're using to support your positions?


 I conceded the Guantanamo point. I honestly did not know that. Thanks. 
AA is a legislated piece of discrimination. Principly, you ought to be against the precept of advancing one group over another through legislation. I understand that people are discriminated against due to race, creed, and gender, but my question provided with AA is "Why are you for one type of discrimination over another?" I don't really care what the TRUE outcome is, I am moreso interested in the principles involved in your arguments for AA as one who defends a nondiscriminatory society being the ideal. 
I didn't say that his gambling addiction wasn't looked at when his father was murdered, I pointed out that it had no real effect on him financially or his overall marketability. He was not considered 'thug'. That's about it. There really isn't much debate in the Jordan points.




essbee said:


> Then how can you say it has anything to do with hip hop as a culture? i'd point out all the crimes that the White House gets away with on a regular basis and talk about how connections have a way of getting white kids off a lot more than their counterparts but it's one of those "you'd have to see it to understand" type situations.


 I agree that there is racial profiling by police. rap propagates that message of violence.



essbee said:


> Uh... because we're talking about not fearing people in business suits?


do they commit violent crimes?



essbee said:


> You said it was reasonable to fear black men because of crimes. I'm asking, quite simply, if you think it's also reasonable to fear that white men are terrorists and child molesters when you see them walking down a street.


 see below.... also, 1 white guy going crazy does not mean ALL white guys are crazy and become a terrorist. I'll look for data for this stuff though....



essbee said:


> Uh.. no. Because it has heavily helped WHITE WOMEN you can't say that affirmative action is against white people unless you don't think white women are part of the white population. This was clearly explained and supporting articles were given.
> 
> Didn't you demand that I show evidence of white women benefiting from AA? Where is all this other commentary coming from when you haven't addressed the information that you DEMANDED I provide?


 I missed the link in which women and minorties were sparated. Sometimes women are also black... I heard that one time.... don't know if it's true.... but here's a nice little bit that you may have missed. WHITE WOMEN EARN LESS THAN BLACK MALES! Here, it's your link, read it. 

Oh yeah, BLACK WOMEN earn more than WHITE WOMEN.... it's 7th from the bottom. 





essbee said:


> Go ahead and provide the evidence that black women benefit more than any other group. After you do that, provide an explanation of how your points about AA weren't wrong, namely that AA is simply reverse racism that keeps white people from getting the jobs they deserve. These are all points you made, so defend them with facts. That's the new theme for the thread right? Making points and supporting them?


 “Job opportunities for white males have gone down,” 
 -your link again.
As for employment oppourtunities, read this, (college IMO is directly relevent to job oppourtunities, and I'll assume you agree with that).

So after reading this, do you believe that AA is indeed in congruence with its original intent?
(1) The contractor will not discriminate against any employee or applicant for employment because of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. The contractor will take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, color, religion, sex or national origin. Such action shall include, but not be limited to the following: employment, upgrading, demotion, or transfer; recruitment or recruitment advertising; layoff or termination; rates of pay or other forms of compensation; and selection for training, including apprenticeship. The contractor agrees to post in conspicuous places, available to employees and applicants for employment, notices to be provided by the contracting officer setting forth the provisions of this nondiscrimination clause.




It does matter if the women benefiting includes white women, since you said AA works against white people. I can't make the point any more simple. And women are not minorities since they comprise, traditionally, more than half of the population. Please look up the term "minority" and then understand why the phrase used is usually "women AND minorities."





essbee said:


> It's not enough for you to dislike them. I want you to show me how movies like that, which clearly glorify serial killing, have impacted white culture. In other words, create a counterpoint to your argument that hip hop is in any way responsible for the problems within the black community.


Movies are a fantasy... hence the fiction. When a rapper raps about life, and glorifies cappin someone... don't you wonder if he actually has done so? Also, do you wonder if that IS representative of a large portion of black culture? Living in poverty, drugs, murder, and other violence? If so, then wouldn't rap be considered representative of black culture? 



essbee said:


> As always, we'll expect proof with statistics.


 now you're just getting cranky. lol. I'm not here to fight with you, in fact, I have only continued this debate with you because I respect the validity of many of your arguments. 




essbee said:


> Wrong. Every culture has problems, what are designated maladaptive traits by sociologists. Black culture is no exception. The idea that problems in black culture can be explained by talking about the music listened to in the communities is idiotic. The idea that the problems can be traced to the way people dress is idiotic. The idea that hip hop and black culture are synonomous is idiotic. The idea that the crime rates anywhere can be traced to the listening patterns of music is idiotic. The idea that any one thing is the source of any group's problems is idiotic.
> 
> Let me know if you're still confused.





essbee said:


> Post #268, right after you said that black people comprise 40% of the population which I thought was funny.


 yeah, my bad, I don't know where I got that number from! That is ridiculously high, it's more like 12-14%.... but if you read the first of the other link I provided,


> There is more black-on-white than black-on-black violent crime.
> 
> Of the approximately 1,700,000 interracial crimes of violence involving
> blacks and whites, 90 percent are committed by blacks against whites.
> ...







essbee said:


> my post, #168 in the thread, several pages before you even said it..
> 
> Let me know if you need links, I'm assuming giving you the post # is enough evidence.


See above as to why I used AA as an example.


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Hibachi,

In California, Asians benefit the most when it comes to the "UC" system. It just so happens that the vast majority have outstanding grades. So it's not like they are putting poor students into college. Your mistake was going to community college first and not having strong enough grades and/or extra curricular out of HS.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

HKF said:


> Hibachi,
> 
> In California, Asians benefit the most when it comes to the "UC" system. It just so happens that the vast majority have outstanding grades. So it's not like they are putting poor students into college. Your mistake was going to community college first and not having strong enough grades and/or extra curricular out of HS.


Research has shown that since Prop 209 in California (you know... The one that was SUPPOSED to end Affirmative Action? But it really didn't, it just significantly decreased its power)



> It’s 10 years since Californians passed Proposition 209, the initiative that ended racial preferences in government employment, education and contracting. And a close look at data from the University of California system reveals a multihued picture in which all groups, on balance, have benefited in unintended and unexpected ways.
> 
> It is true that after Prop. 209 went into effect, as opponents had predicted, black and Hispanic populations at California’s two most elite universities — Berkeley and UCLA — dropped by nearly half and have never fully recovered. According to admissions data, between 1995 and 2004, black admissions to Berkeley dropped from 6.66 percent to 3.59 percent and Hispanics from 17 to 10.22 percent. UCLA reported similar drops.
> 
> Yet, despite these drops, the overall population of minority students across the University of California system has remained remarkably stable. This is because post-Prop. 209, black and Hispanic students didn’t give up on a higher education — they simply entered colleges for which they were more qualified. Indeed, schools such as UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz have seen minority enrollments increase, with Riverside alone reporting a 240 percent increase in black admissions.





> *But what about the spots vacated by blacks and Hispanics at the elite universities? At Berkeley, it turns out most have gone to Asians, whose enrollment has risen from 38 percent in 1995 to about 46 percent in 2004. At UCLA, they have been split between whites and Asians.*
> 
> In both schools Asians represent more than 40 percent of the student population — even though they are only 12 percent of the state’s general population. This means California’s elite colleges are the first among their national peers, thanks to Prop. 209, to treat Asians fairly.
> 
> *Asians applying to elite schools don’t benefit from minority preferences — because they are not regarded as underrepresented.* At the same time, The Wall Street Journal’s Daniel Golden recently documented that because Asians are often first-generation immigrants, they don’t qualify for legacy preferences either. *The result is they lose out both to less qualified black and white students. They need to score at least 50 points higher than non-Asians on standardized tests just to be in the game.*



http://www.examiner.com/a-383258~Education_after_affirmative_action.html

And research right as affirmative action was still in place?



> *EARLIER this summer the University of California at Berkeley released figures on affirmative action that make clear the degree to which Asians, and to a lesser extent whites, are being excluded from that university*. Berkeley's estimates of what would happen to white and especially Asian enrollment if affirmative action were done away with are quite conservative. Yet they yield the following indications: Asians would go from 40 per cent to 55 per cent of the student body.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n18_v47/ai_17498657

:clap: HKF... You're statement couldn't have been any further from the truth. I know... It's got to sting just a tad. How about we just take your post total down to 33,075 and pretend like this never happened?


----------



## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The UC system is full of Asians. The black/latino populations are minuscule at best. As it said, the Affirmative action programs benefited Asians the most and now Asians are being hurt by them for white and black students. So it seems like white kids were getting ahead on something too.

I'm sure the less than thousands of black students on the UC campuses really took away from you. The truth is, you probably were not that great of a student. If you were it would have been someone else that would have been left out.


----------



## essbee (Oct 30, 2006)

IceMan23and3 said:


> AA is a legislated piece of discrimination. Principly, you ought to be against the precept of advancing one group over another through legislation.


Principally we should all understand that if white men had not enacted so many discriminations none of this legislation would be necessary. Historically we should understand that if white men had not been so reluctant to give ground in any of the areas mentioned, legislation would not have been necessary. Reasonable, anybody who opposes AA should suggest the alternatives.



> I don't really care what the TRUE outcome is, I am moreso interested in the principles involved in your arguments for AA as one who defends a nondiscriminatory society being the ideal.


The power group that got so many things without competition DUE to previous discriminatory practices didn't relinquish those things when institutions like slavery were ended. It has been realized, throughout time, that the changes towards balance need to be encouraged due to unwillingness by the power group to give up their advantage. Do you oppose court-forced integration too?



> I didn't say that his gambling addiction wasn't looked at when his father was murdered


I guess I mistook you saying "not really" as meaning.. "not really" since it was a response to whether or not they looked at it.



> do they commit violent crimes?


 So they're only "crimes" if they're violent ones?



> see below.... also, 1 white guy going crazy does not mean ALL white guys are crazy and become a terrorist. I'll look for data for this stuff though....


You should look at the Sons of Liberty and other founders of America. They realized that what they were doing was effectively treason against England, and accepted their roles as terrorists because they believe in the cause. I'm assuming you realize that the Boston Tea Party we teach our kids to celebrate was illegal, right?



> I missed the link in which women and minorties were sparated. Sometimes women are also black... I heard that one time.... don't know if it's true....


Women are never considered minorities at the societal level... because.. there are more women than men... women... are the majority..



> but here's a nice little bit that you may have missed. WHITE WOMEN EARN LESS THAN BLACK MALES! Here, it's your link, read it.


Which addresses the wage gap I spoke of earlier when I said it was stupid to suggest that an end to de jure bias puts an end to de facto bias.. You do remember that right?


Also, wouldn't this part invalidate your blanket statement that black women earn more than white women?

"Significant wage gaps based on sex and race also persist. Overall women make only 71 cents to a man's dollar. White women in 1993 earned 70.8% of the salary of white men, while black women and Hispanic women were paid 63.7% and 53.9% respectively"



> Oh yeah, BLACK WOMEN earn more than WHITE WOMEN.... it's 7th from the bottom.



*Black women earn slightly more than white women when both have master's degrees.* Do you really think that's the same as saying "black women earn more than white women"? Since less than 18% of the black population over the age of 25 has completed college it's not the same thing by a long shot. Nice attempt at mis-stating the statistics though.




> So after reading this, do you believe that AA is indeed in congruence with its original intent?


 You do realize you're making the exact complaint I said you would though right? this is the white male victim card we hear all the time from right wingers, and the questions still remain, do you think this program would have been necessary if white men in this country hadn't systematically and repeatedly denied any opportunities to outsiders? I don't understand your point. Are you saying nothing should be done to reverse those former policies, which still have remnants in the decision making processes today? The whole "let people take care of it themselves" thing was tried already, after the advent of brilliant policies like Separate But Equal. 





> Movies are a fantasy... hence the fiction. When a rapper raps about life, and glorifies cappin someone... don't you wonder if he actually has done so?


No.. I don't.. are you saying hip hop isn't fiction?



> Also, do you wonder if that IS representative of a large portion of black culture? Living in poverty, drugs, murder, and other violence? If so, then wouldn't rap be considered representative of black culture?


Uh.. no I don't have to wonder.. because I know that if most black people sold drugs there wouldn't be anybody to sell it to. If you think that represents a large portion of black culture that's your problem to work through.


I already know why you used AA as an example. It's the standby conservative argument for how white men are being persecuted in a politically correct world where their accomplishments are denied, and they're made to pay for the "sins of the father." We had to listen to Rush and all the others say exactly this same stuff during the Jayson Blair controversy and he reiterated it on espn talking about Donovan Mcnabb getting preferential treatment by the media just for being black.


----------



## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> I'm sure the less than thousands of black students on the UC campuses really took away from you. The truth is, you probably were not that great of a student. If you were it would have been someone else that would have been left out.


Actually... I never applied... I never really paid attention in high school, and decided to get my act together. Regardless, you failed to even address the fact that Asian's are indeed the most hurt by those decisions. The fact that there are so many Asian students doesn't mean jack ****. If more Asian students are qualified for school then they ALL deserve to be there. As the studies showed, Asians were the ones hurt most. Which was COMPLETELY opposite of what you stated. But go ahead and side-step. Your attempt at a re-direct was laughable at best.



> The UC system is full of Asians. The black/latino populations are minuscule at best. *As it said, the Affirmative action programs benefited Asians the most* and now Asians are being hurt by them for white and black students.


What the hell studies were you reading? What part of... "Asians would go from 40 per cent to 55 per cent of the student body" if no form of affirmative action was in place do you not understand? What part of CURRENTLY Asian students have to score 50 points higher in order to get on the same playing field don't you understand? Your attempt at a save to your statement that Asians benefit most from affirmative action is pretty sad. Can't even admit you were wrong when you were BLATANTLY wrong.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

> I missed the link in which women and minorties were sparated. Sometimes women are also black... I heard that one time.... don't know if it's true.... but here's a nice little bit that you may have missed. WHITE WOMEN EARN LESS THAN BLACK MALES! Here, it's your link, read it.
> 
> Oh yeah, BLACK WOMEN earn more than WHITE WOMEN.... it's 7th from the bottom.


Why would it surprise you that black women earn more than white women? Black women have been forced to work since emancipation, while many white women have had the luxury to stay at home. This can be seen in the feminist movement and the womanhood movement: while white women were claiming empowerment in being able to leave the home for work and sherk the traditional female role, black women were forced to leave their children at home to go care for someone else's kids. Black women have always been in the work force in higher numbers than white women, although the jobs they've fulfilled have been on a lesser rung. They also have a strong tradition of college education. Combine that with the work experience they've gained over the past hundred and fifty years, and I'm not sure why that's a valid point. 

Anyway, your point was intentionally misleading. That's very dishonest of you. The statistic said that black women with master's degrees earn more than white women with master's degrees, and it probably wasn't statistically significant. 

As for your point about black men earning more than white women, your article said nothing about that, and you know it. You're just being dishonest.


----------



## RoddneyThaRippa (Jun 28, 2003)

Oh, and considering that there is a fixed amount of students in the California college system at any given time, it's probably easy enough to find correct data as to the racial breakdown. I won't do it, but I thought I'd mention it.


----------



## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

kflo said:


> this thread makes me sad.


Me too.


----------



## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

essbee said:


> So let's take the above info about elton brand and see what Ron Artest says in this interview
> 
> 
> link
> ...


Ron Artest covered Deep Purple?

Awesome.


----------



## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

RoddneyThaRippa said:


> As for your point about black men earning more than white women, your article said nothing about that, and you know it. You're just being dishonest.


inadvertant accident. I misread it. It just says that minority men make more than white women.


----------

