# Euroleague Final Four



## AMR (Oct 5, 2003)

*2004 Final Four* 
April 29 to May 1, Tel Aviv, Israel 

















CSKA Moscow








Skipper Bologna








Maccabi Tel Aviv








Montepaschi Siena


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## AMR (Oct 5, 2003)

since this:







I hope anybody wins except Maccabi.. specially an Italian team since CSKA will have their Euroleague next year with the Final Four in Moscow


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## ChitwoodStyle (Oct 9, 2003)

Why I never understood were those signs in English.
I would say CSKA they are played very very good and with their recent lose in Russia they will be hungry to get as many of the titles as they can this year, and then they can try to repeat at home next year.


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## Sigma (Apr 26, 2003)

CSKA will win it. Best team and best coach in Europe.


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## macijauskas1 (Dec 22, 2003)

I don't care who wins, just want jews not to win.


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

Skipper Bologna

They are wihtout fear.

And if they need experience to win, there is Pozzecco or Basile.


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## el_Diablo (May 15, 2003)

hopefully bologna wins...


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## Virtuoso (Jan 26, 2004)

CSKA vs. Skipper in the final. 

CSKA will win it then history will repeat, the 2004 European champion will play an exhibition with an NBA team (Jazz) just like the 2003 European champion FC Barcelona played the Grizzlies last year. 

Jazz will make the playoffs in 2005 like Memphis did in 2004.

:laugh: 

If this becomes true i'm insane!


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## TigerL (Jun 13, 2004)

Hello, I'm new here. Saw a link to these boards and went to see if, and how much is Euro BB being discussed- esp. my team Maccabi Tel Aviv, the European champion for the 4th time (how fun it is to say it  ). I have read many great posts and analysis, not with all I ageed - but all in all it was an interesting read. Then I got to this thread..... :no:  You ppl understand a lot about basketball, what can I say. *cough* *cough*   And about the other stuff you dealt with here (but that's later on, now I want to say generally that..).

Well, CSKA probably WAS the favorite, but you don't give any credit for Macabbi, which was regarded even by most people that favoured CSKA, as a realy close opponent. But as an Israeli and a Maccabi fan, I knew that the actual favorite is Maccabi (even though it sounds subjective) b/c ppl here know up close what *people* make this group what it is. The players, couches, managemnt and of course, the fans. Also we know that no group has the 'winner' drive as does Maccabi, in general and of course if you're two games away from a trophy in your own court. We knew that no European group can beat Maccabi when she is in her normal shape (unlike she was in a big part of the Top 16), playing crucial games. We naturally feared the semi finale- with CSKA of all groups, that is def. the second best group in Europe, but we _knew_ that if Maccabi will play it's game, she will win. And as someone here wrote: *she did and she looked good doing it.*   :yes:

All you predicted about Skipper also demonstrates your great understanding of what you're talking about.:dead: :dead: :laugh:
But that's material for the next posts.


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## TigerL (Jun 13, 2004)

:topic:




> Originally posted by <b>AMR</b>!
> since this:
> 
> 
> ...


AMR, do you even know the history of this fans 'presentation'? 
If you do, you are one hypocrtical brat. If you don't, you shouldn't have written about it. 




*A short recap for any case:*

Final four set in Tel Aviv about a year and a half ago.

This season, 1 round of Top 16: Spanish group Pamesa Valencia, in her home court, loses by 14 points to Maccabi tel Aviv.

Assination of Achmed Yasin, leader of Hamas terror organization.

(Somehere in the middle - the ghastly terror attack in Madrid.)

After the assination, and all kinds of political trashtalk about the terrorists revenge, the coward group of Valenica jumps on the wagon and refuses to come to the 2nd future enounter with Maccabi, this time in Maccabi's court. As the sign here says - Final Four in train of Madrid, or something like that - it didn't intend in no way to disrespect the ppl that suffered in this horrible terrorist act, the people of Madrid, Spain, or whoever (and these fans would apoligize, I can guruntee, if they will be told it did offend people). We know better than all countries what experiencing terror is... so I can't imagine an Israeli disrespecting or abusing this issue. What it did mean was - If you were suppose to play a game in Madrid, you wouldn't come anymore, out of security fear?? :whatever: Bottom line being- Spane is not imune anymore from terrorism, nor any place. If there is enough security forces and you don't ride public buses here (or just hang out in crowd pubic places), you'll be fine. What a more bigger sign to terror that it is *won*, then prevent life to go on inspite of it (taking all precuations, of course)? That's the explanation for the second sign they hold - Valencia's actions indirectly help the cause and the destinations of terrorist groups, and the likes of Osama, Arafat and Yassin.

Either way, The political use that Valenica made was disgusting. It almost dragged out a relocating of the Fianl Four games out of Tel Aviv, after being expecting them for so long, after all the preperations.... :no: Only with a lions fight of Maccabi's powerful management, it eventually stayed in Tel Aviv (Maccabi fans also went to the Spanish embassy to protest, and and made many people here proud). So in case you didn't know all that you know now, I believe you should take a seocnd thought about which group deserved to be disliked b/c of factors that are unrelated to sports- Maccabi Tel Aviv, or Pamesa Valencia.

I am generally against disliking a sports group b/c of stuff unrelevant to the sport :bball: directly, but I couldn't help but voice "Yesh!" (a kind of hooray in Hebrew) when I read that Valenica wouldn't be in the Euroleage next season. 

On the other hand, it could have been fun to watch them arriving at the Nokia Arena next season.. Maccabi fans would had no doubt arranged a "warm" welcoming to them :grinning: ..... not something violent- just the booing and whistling of 10000 people through the game :curse: (ask Skipper players how it feels   ).

That's what I had to say about _that_.


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## AMR (Oct 5, 2003)

Valencia didn't use politics.
Valencia didn't travel because they were told that his fans wouldn't have the guarantee of being protected in Israel.
They made a dumb move, but they didn't talk politics.
Israelis began with the political thing. Spanish police would guarantee security for anything in all the country. ETA wouldn't do anything to foreigners, and we've had only one attack by Al Qaeda so we aren't like Israel.
And you are justifying these statements by these Maccabi dumb fans. They have no justification. I followed the reactions against Valencia in Israel and it was something close to a anti-Spain feeling, something that doesn't exist in Spain against Israel. I think Israelis are too paranoid with foreign countries.


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## TigerL (Jun 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>ChitwoodStyle</b>!
> Why I never understood were those signs in English.


They were in English for the foriegn press :reporter:- as they were suppose to be there also - wanted to send a message... simple. Too bad the message wasn't expressed clearly enough and that people interpeted it wrongly, at least from what I see here. :|



> I would say CSKA they are played very very good and with their recent lose in Russia they will be hungry to get as many of the titles as they can this year, and then they can try to repeat at home next year.


They might have been hungry, but as I wrote earlier about Maccabi's winner drive -not as hungry as Maccabi was.  :rock: :worship:


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## TigerL (Jun 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>AMR</b>!
> Valencia didn't use politics.


Valenica didn't use politics?!  How would you call riding a political wagon as a justification not to come to a tough BB game outside, which you are obliged to come? Where is this hypocricy from?



> Valencia didn't travel because they were told that his fans wouldn't have the guarantee of being protected in Israel.
> They made a dumb move, but they didn't talk politics.


Fans? You mean that some fans wanted to accompany Valencia to this game....?  If It's true, than that is a reson not to show up? "_We don't have fans with us, we can't play"_? That makes sense! :laugh: A new reason for not arriving at games abroad. Damn, Macabbi could use it not to arrive to the last HaPoel games at Ussishkin- as they wouldn't even sell tickets to Maccabi fans!! How could they not think about it....?    



> Israelis began with the political thing. Spanish police would guarantee security for anything in all the country. ETA wouldn't do anything to foreigners, and we've had only one attack by Al Qaeda so we aren't like Israel.


Israel started the politlcal thing..? That's funny. A spanish group was suppose to come to a tough game in Israel, which she was obligated to, and decided not to b/c of political developments, so it was Israel who" began with the political thing"? Hu uh. :yes:

About the Spanish police, I can say that following what happned in Madrid they showed that they can't 'guruntee' anything, even the minimum of securing the trains. Here at least _this_ wouldn't happen... but I hardly want to go to these issues now. :| 

No, "you're not like Israel" , but coming for two days for a game when you are well protected- I dare to assume - probably much more protected than they will be in Spain, is not a serious story. Because of the 'over-sensetivity' here and b/c the police here has a far more vast experience in securing people from such threats than the Spanish police. I heard of triple circles of security in the Arena, of more cops that were securing there than basketball fans. And you can ask the people and fans of C.S.K.A, and those of Skipper and Siena (though only a few arrived for the Italian groups) about those tight security arrangements in the finale four events.

As an Israeli, I can tell you that I feel safe even in public places, as long as I'm in a protected place, with a security check in the entrance.... B/c of the situatin here, I just don't go to places and situations where I don't feel safe (like riding a public bus- again the ultimate example), and I live a full life. So, of course there's a big difference with the situation here and in Spain, but in this specific case of one game arrival, "it was a dumb decision", and an unneccecary one, so I think a better understandig of it's consequences is in place.



> And you are justifying these statements by these Maccabi dumb fans. They have no justification.


Statements? What statement?! Did _anyhting_ I wrote about it got through to you? *These 'statements' didn't have any negative meaning, they wanted to send an ANTI TERROR MESSAGE*. I know exactly what they meant, esp. b/c these particular fans are well known, and are good people. If you still don't wanna except what people _really_ meant, and you wanna inssist on believing what you wanna believe, it's your problem. Don't tell me though that _we're_ paranoid... 

Still, maybe they should have expressed their meaning in different words, so certain people will understand what they wanted to say, and not get what they wish to interpert.



> I followed the reactions against Valencia in Israel and it was something close to a anti-Spain feeling, something that doesn't exist in Spain against Israel. I think Israelis are too paranoid with foreign countries.


Now you also being unneccecary sensitive. It wasn't anti-Spain, but anti Pamesa-Valencia... If you say you're anti-Maccabi, for your own reasons, does it mean you're anti Israel (you might be that, too ,though)?? And, following the chain of events that the dumb decision of your group caused, it's not surprising at all.
If you also admit it wad dumb, think that WE alsmot had to 'suffer' from it's consequrnces -'suffer' reltively, of course  - b/c it wasn't the end of the world, just a lost of a sport related dream... But still, this explains a lot of the anger at Valencia. So yes, this group is seriously unliked here now by BB fan, b/c it's actions almost prevented the unforgetable and uniqe experience that was the Final Four in Tel Aviv. 

Last thing- There isn't an anti Israel sentiment in Spain?!  PLEASE!  I also deal with foriegn politics, so I know perfectly well that it's hardly the case, esp. in the socialist circles... as it in all of Europe... But that's really getting OT..

So I wish we were paranoid for nothing...  but if you follow politics a little you should know better.

PS: Sorry for any spellng mistaks, I usually have babylon and now it doesn't work (I'm aslo really tired).


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## TigerL (Jun 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Sigma</b>!
> CSKA will win it. Best team and best coach in Europe.



Not anymore- best team, naturally, but best coach as well. Pini Gershon got an offer from C.S.K.A right after the F4, and I constantly read now that he's considered the best couch working in Europe. And that's only natural. On top of all, his wining offensive tactic, with the most beutiful basketball seen in Europe (at least). Also the fact that in the last two years he have been coaching he brought the trophy (not twice in a row though)also constitues for something. :clap:

If he would just think twice before saying crap that would be perfect.  Anyway, wish he would stay!!


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## TigerL (Jun 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>macijauskas1</b>!
> I don't care who wins, just want jews not to win.


OK, this is the last orignal messgae I can remember that was unrelated to :bball:

##

Look, I checked again the registration agreement, and this is what it said: "By clicking the Agree button, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws, and you agree to abide by the TU and the BBNG of BasketballBoards.net."

I don't know if what this person says here violates this agreement, but no doubt this is tasteless and bigot.

BUT, since it seems that the admin/mods have saw it fit to leave this message as it is, and even though this deserves no real reference, I just wanted to assure to this poor idiot, :mrt: that we *DID WIN*  , and *what a win was that*!!! Broke 12 records of Euro finale. :clap: :cheers: :worship: This group, with it's proud Jewish and non Jewish players, with it's proud Jewish coaches and management, with it's proud Jewish and non Jewish fans and with it's proud Jewish name ****ING MADE BASKETBALL HISTORY!!! :banana: :banana: :banana: :rock: 

So eat your heart out! :nah: :kissmy: :jump:


Hopefully you won't insult the meaning of sport and the beauty of Basketball and repeat such statements, or even **** the hell out of these boards... But you proabbly won't... :stupid: 

Oh well..


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## TigerL (Jun 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>AMR</b>!
> Valencia didn't use politics.
> Valencia didn't travel because they were told that his fans wouldn't have the guarantee of being protected in Israel.
> They made a dumb move, but they didn't talk politics.
> ...


Just wanted to add - I can see why you would interpret these signs wrong. But I tell you that it's wrong 100%, b/c simply they meant:

*Why giving out to terror? You have/had terror in you country as well, and *wouldn't you come to play in Madrid now b/c what happened there?*


*F*** you Pamesa Valencia, you coward! We also wanted to see a good BB game, bought a ticket, and then you wouldn't come.  :angel: (-Well, what can you do?  )

I want to clarify it even more deeply b/c now when I thought about it more, I see it important that the bad impression you had will be corrected, as one who knows what this story has caused here to BB fans, and on what Maccabi fans talked about, and how they expressed themselves, it is totally opposite of what you make it. They mainly worried that the final four won't be held here eventually, and were pissed at Valencia and their ppl that were responsible for the talks about relocating it and the commitee that asembled for it. IN NO WAY THEY WOULD ABUSE SUCH A THING AS A TERROR ATTACK!  :| 

I'm sorry if this is the impression you got, the WAY they expressed this was perhaps tasteless, in such a sensitive matter.
I apologize in their name, if it really offended you or anybody else seeing it. And I'm sure they would, too, if you told them excatly that (like I said, I know who the specific ppl in this photo are).

Good Night


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## TigerL (Jun 13, 2004)

BtW, after reading your posts on the terrorism and basketball thread I advise you to go the library and read some books on the Israeli-Palestinian conflcit, rather than watch the news, maybe twice a week, a month or whetever, and learning about conflicts that not in your country only like that, if it actually interests you, b/c if you talk about it like some wiseguy who can swim in these subjects I assume it does. It's shamful and egoistical, and I hate it in general. I woulnd't say a word about the conflicts you have/had b/c I don't ud it ina degree of discussing it. To sum it up, I would be a shamed at what you wrote if I were you. And you also wanted the games not to be in Tel Aviv, so basically I have my poinion of you as on Pamesa.... not a great one. :devil: Of course you shouldn't give a **** about it, but still wanted to say it. Man, why it feels that everywhere you go you bump to the unpleasant stuff - politics, racists, and wiseguys, even when you only want to read about basketball? :no:


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## AMR (Oct 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TigerL</b>!
> BtW, after reading your posts on the terrorism and basketball thread I advise you to go the library and read some books on the Israeli-Palestinian conflcit, rather than watch the news, maybe twice a week, a month or whetever, and learning about conflicts that not in your country only like that, if it actually interests you, b/c if you talk about it like some wiseguy who can swim in these subjects I assume it does. It's shamful and egoistical, and I hate it in general. I woulnd't say a word about the conflicts you have/had b/c I don't ud it ina degree of discussing it. To sum it up, I would be a shamed at what you wrote if I were you. And you also wanted the games not to be in Tel Aviv, so basically I have my poinion of you as on Pamesa.... not a great one. :devil: Of course you shouldn't give a **** about it, but still wanted to say it. Man, why it feels that everywhere you go you bump to the unpleasant stuff - politics, racists, and wiseguys, even when you only want to read about basketball? :no:


I have read about the occupations. Probably more than you've ever read about Spain.
And please, don't call me racist, because I ain't any kind of racist. I admire a lot of jews, I have nothing against jews, why can't I be allowed to dislike Maccabi???


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## AMR (Oct 5, 2003)

Also I really doubt that you came here to talk about basketball. If you did it you'd be talking about new events, not searching for threads related with politics or Israel.
Anyway I have nothing against you and you're welcome here to talk about Israeli and European basketball.

It looks like Saras will leave Maccabi, does the media says something about that in Israel?


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## TigerL (Jun 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>AMR</b>!
> 
> 
> I have read about the occupations. Probably more than you've ever read about Spain.
> And please, don't call me racist, because I ain't any kind of racist. I admire a lot of jews, I have nothing against jews, why can't I be allowed to dislike Maccabi???


OK, last thing b/c I dead tired- you read about it where? I assume probably in a very specific material, with a very specific politiclal orientaiotn.... b/c if you read some solid stuff you probably wouldn't say stuff like -"Israeli goverments want to fight the Palesitnians", so don't brag in your knowledge. Also what occupation? You call an aquistion(sp?) of territory through a defense attack (1948.... 1967- Jordan attackes Israel... it's all in the hitory books) "occupation"? That means you were reading propaganda, not facts.

Look, we should stop now, maybe continue to talk politics in private, b/c I really don't want to get my head to this now.

MAN, I DIDN'T CALL YOU A RACIST!! I called that other guy, with the racist comments, duh!

You are allowed to dislike whoever you want, it's a free world (at least some of it), but it's interesting to know *why* you dislike them? I love tham and they're the best team that is most fun watching play, and the players have such great personalities... so I was just wondering. You can have good reaons, and idiot ones.. but that's subjective of course. Well, we'll see tommorrow.

Good that you admire a lot of Jews...  I admire a lot of ppl, whatever their nationality/race/religion/ they are.


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## TigerL (Jun 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>AMR</b>!
> Also I really doubt that you came here to talk about basketball. If you did it you'd be talking about new events, not searching for threads related with politics or Israel.
> Anyway I have nothing against you and you're welcome here to talk about Israeli and European basketball.
> 
> It looks like Saras will leave Maccabi, does the media says something about that in Israel?


You see what I mean? Again you're talking about what you don't know. I searched for things related MACCABI....... and the 2 first pages of results did relate Maccabi's game and releveant stuff... but then I got to the threads about Valencia, about the Final Four in Tel Aviv... and all kinds of a political stuff. Started reading all kinds of unpleasant comments, which I have had to add my opinion, as I'm very opinated, and these are issues that are close to my heart.

So, I have nothing against you too (only if you dislike Maccabi and I wouldn't succeed in showing you that it's for the wrong reaons..  :laugh: :joke: ).

*The media always says someting about that, but meanwhile no real news about it............... hopefully he will stay of course !!!!!!  :worship:


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## Matiz (Jun 5, 2003)

> You see what I mean? Again you're talking about what you don't know.


OO... and you know it all, right? enlighten us o wise one   !
P.S. I love arguments starting like this one...


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## TigerL (Jun 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Matiz</b>!
> 
> OO... and you know it all, right? enlighten us o wise one   !
> P.S. I love arguments starting like this one...


 

No one knows it all, but as an Israeli, who also deals with these issues, these particular ones that are not related to BB, I assume I should know more about it then AMR (assumptions could be wrong, of course). Also, I would not assume that 
had I not read some remarks of his/her, some known cliche's about this subject, b/c I don't _know_ him/her, naturally.  

And I already 'enlightened' you a bit, with a reference in a few sentences concerning it, but if you wanna be 'enligtened', it woulnd't be through here, you can PM me and I will give you websites to be 'enlightened' by. Or if you just wanted to say some cynical reamrk, there you said it. :clap:


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## TigerL (Jun 13, 2004)

*Sharas news*



> Originally posted by <b>AMR</b>!
> 
> 
> It looks like Saras will leave Maccabi, does the media says something about that in Israel?


No, but I read there are some stuff that his parents said in the Lithuenian press!!! It sounds good for Maccabi fans  .

"He really wants to stay in Maccabi, he will only leave to the NBA if he'll get an attractive deal. He says he really loves the team and the wonderful crowd, and he never thought he could enjoy a team like he enjoyed Barcelona..." somehting like that. But maybe ppl from Lithuenia will add to this. That sure puts a smile on our face  (even if he will leave eventually. People who watched him closely during the season saw that he gradually settles in, and even get used to all the fans frenzy aroud him...  ).


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## Matiz (Jun 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TigerL</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you haven't figured it out by yourself, enlightening other people can be very easy over the internet- that's why I try to avoid any kind of politics, personal beliefs and such stuff over the internet, since talking "mano a mano" is ussually a whole lot different thing- no offense, I think you should try this same tactics too


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## TigerL (Jun 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Matiz</b>!
> 
> If you haven't figured it out by yourself, enlightening other people can be very easy over the internet- that's why I try to avoid any kind of politics, personal beliefs and such stuff over the internet, since talking "mano a mano" is ussually a whole lot different thing- no offense, I think you should try this same tactics too


:sigh: 

I must be a real idiot, but I don't exactly ud what you're implying here (without knowing me...), _whether_ you're implying anything.. Eitherway, your point is not clear - "mano a mano" - a PM? Or "mano a mano" - *not* over the net? :nonono:

Anyway... my last intention right now is to actually meddle in a discussion with painful subjects, where I wanted to have a little fun. That's why I did finish this buisness with AMR in a PM. If you have anything to add or clear, pls do it "mano a mano" as you say (if that's what you meant).


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