# Preseason Game 2: Clippers at CSKA Moscow 10/7



## Weasel

<center>







vs.










Sat, Oct. 7
8:00am</center>


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## clips_r_teh_wieners

Weasel said:


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> Sat, Oct. 7
> 8:00am</center>


well im definitely wont be watching that. but i should wake up just in time for the highlights to come out


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## qross1fan

Hmm 5 in the morning, I might wake up to catch the 4th quarter or whatnot and sleep early, for once which will be akward.


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## Roscoe_Clipps

qross1fan said:


> Hmm 5 in the morning, I might wake up to catch the 4th quarter or whatnot and sleep early, for once which will be akward.


It's only 9:30pm here in Australia  Yay I get to watch this game I am soooooo excited!

All thanks to you CDRacingZX6R  YOU ARE MY HERO

:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: 

I'll tell boys what goes on don't worry


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## Roscoe_Clipps

Not looking strong at the start of this game...Van der Spiegel with a nice finish


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## Roscoe_Clipps

Ross with a nice layup of a kaman screen...


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Niiiiiice dunk by Shaun.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

It started to look a bit rough with the Clips down 21-14, but they once again finished a quarter strong with 6 in a row. Shaun seems to be looking more and more like a leader out there, confident. Tim Thomas has been active offensively, though double teamed. First shot was blocked, second was an and-1 under the hoop. Kaman is having another strong game.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Maggette isn't yet getting the calls he got last game, despite creating the same contact. Clips fouling too much, though it's to be expected in a preseason game.


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## Roscoe_Clipps

Livingston with the Niiiiiiiiice baseline Jam....
Livingston looking good...getting to the line, nice handle, getting the ball through hands...
Kaman is getting stacks of Defensive rebounds.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Ouch. Tim Thomas hits a nice 10 footer but then fouls on a 3 attempt. Tim's made a few errors out there today.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

ShuHanGuanYu said:


> Ouch. Tim Thomas hits a nice 10 footer but then fouls on a 3 attempt. Tim's made a few errors out there today.


Just dove to the floor to save a ball, but went out of bounds. The effort is there, he just seems a tad off so far today. I'm hoping he goes off though. No "can't see me" anymore either, wassapwitdat?


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## Roscoe_Clipps

CSKA getting a lot of 2nd chances...25-24 CSKA Up...


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Man, Moscow playing great D. Clips are going to have to earn a win here today.

This European competition is hands down the best thing that could have happened to preseason basketball. I'm having a blast watchin' these games.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Cuttino picking up where he left off in game 1. Kaman is still playing well, but gives up and and-1.

We want Korolev!


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## Roscoe_Clipps

Nice Mobley pull-up off the glass... down one, 28-27...


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Brand seems a tad off too. Overshoots a ten footer, but Kaman cleans up the O-glass and scores. Mobley misses layup. Clips can't seem to go on a run right now, but hanging in there.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Gettin very physical down low...testy testy! :clap: Brand and Kaman are getting swarmed inside. They need to get something going from the outside to open this up.


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## Roscoe_Clipps

Yuck...down by 7....so many three point plays to CSKA...

Seriously though, we look **** without livingston in the game...the offense is soo stagnant with Cassell-Mobley backcourt...


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Sam taking charge with 6 in a row for the Clips. Outside shot good, 2 FT's good, then another shot good. But yeah, the offense looks a little stagnant. The inside players are getting swarmed but still trying to take it up, not kicking it out. And still fouling way too much on D.


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## Roscoe_Clipps

Kaman needs to not put the ball immediately to the floor...it wastes his ability to use a pump fake...quite frustrating...


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## Roscoe_Clipps

Langdan feeling it...


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Cassell is feelin it, but missed a 3. They nailed a 3, looking hot right now. Ouch, defense getting picked apart, too many easy shots. Wide open dunk in the lane. Mobley way off on a 3. Clipps steal, but Kaman offensive foul. Good Lord, they hit another 3. Halftime, Clips now down 13.


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## Roscoe_Clipps

52-39 down at the half...CSKA just feeling it from downtown...


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Papaloukas = NBA Killer.


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## Roscoe_Clipps

Haha, too true man Sorry i didn't realize you were calling this game too..now i can talk to you while i post 

Yeah i wanna see some Paul Davis and Korolev and Singleton...


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Roscoe_Clipps said:


> Haha, too true man Sorry i didn't realize you were calling this game too..now i can talk to you while i post
> 
> Yeah i wanna see some Paul Davis and Korolev and Singleton...


Yeah, Singleton would have brought some energy in there. Tim Thomas didn't get any looks the second time while he was out there, but he wasn't really looking for the ball. Everything right now is Kaman on the inside. Mobley or Maggs need to step it up and provide a lift.

Defensively, I don't know what they can do. That team's just on fire, but Livingston's height seemed to disrupt their guards quite a bit and threw them off in the beginning. Like you said, Sam and Cuttino haven't done well as a unit.


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## billfindlay10

The Clipps might have to keep some first stringers in the game if they want the "W"


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Brand with the rejection, nice start defensively. But then Kaman fouls.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Cassell posts up one-on-one, doesn't go. I'd have liked a Brand post up to start things off, they have to find a way to get him involved. I think he's only got like...4 so far.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Mobley layup. Moscow gets three attempts but can't score. Q-Ross offensive foul trying to play beyond his game. Clips need to calm down and run their sets.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Horrible lazy pass by Cassell, Brand frustrated but trying to motivate.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Brand gets a nice turnaround look, puts it down. But another foul on the other end, non-shooting.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Wide open 3, they hit it. Cuttino with a nice inside score, but why they aren't pounding it in to Elton Brand I dunno. Ouch, another wide open 3 goes down. Livingston loses it. They hit again, not looking good fellas. Still not going to Brand, turnover.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Livingston misses 3, then Cassell misses 3. Down 18.


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## billfindlay10

these updates are great! Thanks.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Yikes, missed what happened, but Maggs is fired up and took a charge. Livi hits a floater, Clips down 13. Tim Thomas steal! Mobley brick. Maggs with a bad outside shot, get Tim Thomas a 3 attempt!


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Livingston offensive foul. Timeout. Nice run by the Clips, but with better shot selection it could have been even better. They somehow have to get Mobley and Maggs to play within the offense and not try to go one-on-one right when they get down the court. I'd get Brand a touch on nearly every play, and then rely on his passing out of the double team.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Moscow hits a tough turnaround fadeaway. It goes into Brand, nothing there so he passes to Maggs. Corey drives and gets the foul. FT woes continue, off the front of the rim on the first but nails the second.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Wide open dunk. Tim Thomas caught sleeping. Tim misses a 3, off the ball foul going the other way. Mobley getting into it with another player, 2 FT's good for Moscow. Singleton in elbows one of the other players in the head but they didn't catch it...haha. 18 point game again. Maggette takes it to the rack again and gets hacked.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

2 FT's good, but easy layup on the other end. Maggette loses it, Moscow player injured still under the Clips hoop. Brand and him were on the ground and fighting for the ball, other guy came up hurt. Injury timeout.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

They miss, Brand scores, they miss again as the buzzer sounds. 

Tough game so far, Clippers not playing that well. It is easy to see what they can do when they are focuses, but sometimes it looks like they don't have any continuity to their offense. Whoever gets the ball first is who takes the shot, with no passing it around to find the open guy. Clippers are 1/12 from 3. 17 turnovers hurt, outrebounding the other team by 6 though.

Moscow though is the reigning Euroleague champs, and tons of credit to them. They came to play, quite obviously.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Awesome move by Maggette, gets the two. Singleton hustles and comes up with it on the other end. 14 point game. Maggette heating up, nails a 3! 11 point game.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Singleton playing some solid D, causes the miss but Elton fouls on the putback attempt. FT's good. 13 point deficit.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Singleton takes the outside shot...eww. They get a layup. Seems like everytime the Clips play bad on offense they give up an easy 2, which doesn't bode well today. Maggs offensive foul.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Kaman misses twice but fights for the rebound and puts it back on the third attempt. Cassell back in, Clips still trying to win this game. They hit from 8 feet. Ewing gets a nice layup. They miss, offensive rebound. Open layup, ouch. Maggette gets it stolen and then reaches in. Timeout.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Game on! 15 points to cover in 9 minutes. Nice D inside, TT comes up with the ree. Thomas misses another 3, but Maggs puts it back! He's got 12. Bummer though, I was looking forward to Tim Thomas having a nice game. Kaman taken off the dribble and scored on. Another break in the action.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

billfindlay10 said:


> these updates are great! Thanks.


You're welcome! Glad you are enjoying it. :cheers:


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Tim Thomas barely beats the shot clock but misses the 3. Thomas with a bad reach-in to put them on the line. It frustrated me to no end when he used to do that on the Suns. Brand on the bench. 17 point game, Clippers ball. Kaman on the inside but doubled and turns it over. Backdoor pass for the layup, nice pass by Papaloukas. Kaman follows his own shot and tips it in. They hit again. Ouch, 19 point game now. Maggette lures in the defender and draws the foul, hands down best in the league at doing that. It's in his head now, misses the first FT but makes the second.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Kaman with the block, Sammy brings it up. Sam takes a contested shot, no good and going the other way. Moscow misses, out of bounds to Clips. Isolating Shaun in the corner. The double comes quick and he loses it while getting hacked with no call. Another timeout.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

They hit 1 of 2 free throws. Miss by...oops didn't catch who that was, maybe Tim Thomas. Thomas pushes on the shot, 2 more FT's coming.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Kaman fouled on the spin move. David Anderson of Moscow is a damn whiner, maybe he doesn't realize that there's only a minute to go in the game with his team up 19. Had to throw that in there. Slapped away on the drive, out of bounds to Clips. Korolev in for the first time, misses from the outside. They hit, man their midrange game is solid. Kaman with the high post, faces up and drives, pulls up and hits from 8 in the lane. Final seconds, standing O from the crowd. Final score 94-75 Moscow. 

Moscow/Clippers 
Q1:21 20
Q2:31 19
Q3:21 18 
Q4:21 18


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Great game, and to put it into perspective it was just the preseason. Clips need to work their offensive flow. Bad shot selection killed them today, and a lot of the time it led to a score on the other end because their defense was not set. Shaun looked very good in the first half, less so in the second. Cassell struggled throughout, some of that veteran rust. Bad game by Timmy T. He couldn't get his shot going and was a defensive liability out there. Plus, he seemed to get outrebounded on several occasions. Maggette took over late but it wasn't enough. Too much standing around and not enough getting Brand the ball. Too many guys tried to play outside of their strengths. Q-Ross trying to take someone off the dribble, Singleton shooting from the perimeter, Kaman trying to split defenders and drive to the basket. Kaman did great though for the post part. In the beginning of the game the speed of the other players was killing him, but he was definitely giving an effort out there and was one of the only consistent weapons on offense.

Still, this was an awesome game to watch. My rooting for you guys didn't seem to help much though. I'll post some of the comments from the post-game interviews.


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## ShuHanGuanYu

Sorry guys, I was gonna give postgame comments but they still haven't come on yet. I set my alarm for 5AM this morning for this game, so I'm dead tired and going back to sleep!


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## Gousgounis

You guys need Big Sofo, get him now, before it is too late


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## Roscoe_Clipps

When would it be too late :S?


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## Seuss

Wow, how they get blown out like that?


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## Weasel

<span style="color: #000099">Thanks for the updates.

I am sure playing last night didn't really help. Though losing by that much is disappointing it is no big deal in retrospect.</span>


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## squeemu

Yeah, keep in mind that CSKA blew out Khimki as well, while the Clippers barely beat them. It's a disappointing loss, but it is the preseason. I remember some ugly games during last preseason. Come to think of it, I remember some ugly games during the regular season. Hopefully the Clippers still know how to come back from these tough losses.


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## qross1fan

Why the hell didn't Korolev play? I don't really care about the loss as much as Korolev not getting PT.


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## ElMarroAfamado

last season Korolev played very very very limited minutes, but he showed promise and she showed he can knock down some shoots, and we could always use a shooter..he needs some more PT!!!!


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## Weasel

I am getting a kick in reading some of the comments on the other boards about the Clippers losing. They forget that this is PRESEASON. Where the team is in experimentation mode not game mode. It is laughable, if the Bobcats would destroy the Heat in pre-season no one would care but since it is a non-NBA team it is international news. Please...


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## Free Arsenal

Let's make the NBA the INBA and incorporate all the international city teams... then see what happens. :banana:


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## Pulteney

It's just amazing how excuses have evolved as one excuse gets knocked off after another. Here's a list excuses in chronological order:

In 2000, team USA escaped by 1 point against Lithuania in the Sydney Olympics. That team featured the likes of Garnett, Duncan, Vince Carter. Back then, they were saying "oh, these guys were in pre-season form".

In the 2002 World Basketball tournament in Indianapolis (their very own home court), team USA for the first time landed sixth place after losing left and right in shocking fashion against Argentina, Yugoslavia, & Spain. They were saying "oh, those were just 3rd-tier NBA players".

In 2004, team USA lost against Italy in an exhibition game leading up to the Athens Olympics, they were saying "oh, it was just an exhibition game".

Then, when they lost the same amount of games (Puerto Rico, Lithuania, & Argentina) in Athens and ended up with a Le-Bronze medal, they sat back, thought about it, and came out with more excuses:
1) "we just need more time to adjust to international rules & style of play"
2) "these international teams have been playing together for quite some time"
3) "it was Larry Brown's fault...he didn't use Lebron that much"
4) "it was Allen Iverson's fault"
5) "we need to bring in some role players"
6) "the international referees suck"

This year, in the recently-concluded FIBA Worlds, with more international experience (I mean the NBA has been participating in international tournaments since 1992...how much longer do they need just to get acquainted? It's just basketball. One can get a doctorate degree in a shorter span of time), with a new coach that's familiar with amateur rules, with role players like Battier, Joe Johnson, etc, with a more carefully selected group of players....no more excuses, right? And still...they ended up in familiar territory...yup, you've guessed it, Le-Bronze medal once again. And once more, you hear different excuses (but still new nonetheless).

They went from:

"if only Kobe played";
"I'll put this player and that player in...then we should have no problem winning the Gold";
"Give Lebron more time. He's still very young"

...to a more resigned (translation: defeatist) but realistic reaction

"bronze is still an accomplishment"
"hey, at least, we beat this team or that team"

...and trying to sound positive
"hey, Lebron almost got a triple double in the bronze medal game"....sigh

And in this NBA European tour, playing as individual NBA teams (a group of players that have played together for quite some time (so no more excuse this time, right?)), the Sixers lost to Barcelona. Again, you hear excuses. Some are the same and some different. The same excuses like "oh, these guys were in pre-season form". The new excuse was "Sixers are among the bottom teams in the NBA. Call me up when European clubs beat a playoff-caliber team". And oh, one even arrogantly belittled Barcelona's victory by saying "the victory was hardly convincing (104-99)...to think that it was against a bottom-rung team"

So now, here come the Clippers (a playoff-caliber team...which went as far as the Western Conference semis)...no more excuses, right? Ha! They lost to CSKA. Not just by a point, but by almost 20 points!. A game that was thoroughly dominated by CSKA. What is it this time?

"oh, Trajan Langdon was playing for CSKA".

AHAHAHAHAHAHA!

I don't know about you guys...but this evolution of excuses is getting pathetic. You need to get this disease called "excusitis" diagnosed.


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## Weasel

Pulteney said:


> It's just amazing how excuses have evolved as one excuse gets knocked off after another. Here's a list excuses in chronological order:
> 
> In 2000, team USA escaped by 1 point against Lithuania in the Sydney Olympics. That team featured the likes of Garnett, Duncan, Vince Carter. Back then, they were saying "oh, these guys were in pre-season form".
> 
> In the 2002 World Basketball tournament in Indianapolis (their very own home court), team USA for the first time landed sixth place after losing left and right in shocking fashion against Argentina, Yugoslavia, & Spain. They were saying "oh, those were just 3rd-tier NBA players".
> 
> In 2004, team USA lost against Italy in an exhibition game leading up to the Athens Olympics, they were saying "oh, it was just an exhibition game".
> 
> Then, when they lost the same amount of games (Puerto Rico, Lithuania, & Argentina) in Athens and ended up with a Le-Bronze medal, they sat back, thought about it, and came out with more excuses:
> 1) "we just need more time to adjust to international rules & style of play"
> 2) "these international teams have been playing together for quite some time"
> 3) "it was Larry Brown's fault...he didn't use Lebron that much"
> 4) "it was Allen Iverson's fault"
> 5) "we need to bring in some role players"
> 6) "the international referees suck"
> 
> This year, in the recently-concluded FIBA Worlds, with more international experience (I mean the NBA has been participating in international tournaments since 1992...how much longer do they need just to get acquainted? It's just basketball. One can get a doctorate degree in a shorter span of time), with a new coach that's familiar with amateur rules, with role players like Battier, Joe Johnson, etc, with a more carefully selected group of players....no more excuses, right? And still...they ended up in familiar territory...yup, you've guessed it, Le-Bronze medal once again. And once more, you hear different excuses (but still new nonetheless).
> 
> They went from:
> 
> "if only Kobe played";
> "I'll put this player and that player in...then we should have no problem winning the Gold";
> "Give Lebron more time. He's still very young"
> 
> ...to a more resigned (translation: defeatist) but realistic reaction
> 
> "bronze is still an accomplishment"
> "hey, at least, we beat this team or that team"
> 
> ...and trying to sound positive
> "hey, Lebron almost got a triple double in the bronze medal game"....sigh
> 
> And in this NBA European tour, playing as individual NBA teams (a group of players that have played together for quite some time (so no more excuse this time, right?)), the Sixers lost to Barcelona. Again, you hear excuses. Some are the same and some different. The same excuses like "oh, these guys were in pre-season form". The new excuse was "Sixers are among the bottom teams in the NBA. Call me up when European clubs beat a playoff-caliber team". And oh, one even arrogantly belittled Barcelona's victory by saying "the victory was hardly convincing (104-99)...to think that it was against a bottom-rung team"
> 
> So now, here come the Clippers (a playoff-caliber team...which went as far as the Western Conference semis)...no more excuses, right? Ha! They lost to CSKA. Not just by a point, but by almost 20 points!. A game that was thoroughly dominated by CSKA. What is it this time?
> 
> "oh, Trajan Langdon was playing for CSKA".
> 
> AHAHAHAHAHAHA!
> 
> I don't know about you guys...but this evolution of excuses is getting pathetic. You need to get this disease called "excusitis" diagnosed.




 

Enjoy your rant. It is called the NBA PRE-SEASON, people don't make a big deal out of it when the bad teams beat the good teams. Yes, CSKA won, good for them. From what I gather they played real well as the Clippers did not. I also like the negative conception of you have of the NBA, had the Clippers won no one would have went around shouting that the Clippers and the NBA are the best, but you can enjoy your moment of fame. The only thing that is pathetic is your weak attempt at baiting this board. Good day.


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## Dissonance

He actually stole that from here


http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showpost.php?p=4057643&postcount=10


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## Seuss

Dissonance19 said:


> He actually stole that from here
> 
> 
> http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showpost.php?p=4057643&postcount=10



LOL

Ouch......


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## Shesh157

Weasel said:


> Enjoy your rant. It is called the NBA PRE-SEASON, people don't make a big deal out of it when the bad teams beat the good teams. Yes, CSKA won, good for them. From what I gather they played real well as the Clippers did not. I also like the negative conception of you have of the NBA, had the Clippers won no one would have went around shouting that the Clippers and the NBA are the best, but you can enjoy your moment of fame. The only thing that is pathetic is your weak attempt at baiting this board. Good day.


It's pre-season for CSKA too. And no, they didn't play _real_ well, against better opponents they usually play tougher defense.


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## Weasel

Shesh157 said:


> It's pre-season for CSKA too. And no, they didn't play _real_ well, against better opponents they usually play tougher defense.



It is? They have already played 11 games before they played the Clippers.


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## 9diamonds

why did Shaun Livingston have so many turnovers?


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## DjPro

Yes, it is preseason)
11 games, but 7 of them without the most of the key players ( Holden arrived 3 games before LAC, Papaloukas - 4 games, Savrasenko - the starting C - didn't play against LAC, arrived 4 games before, Ponkrashov arrived 4 games before LAC, etc.)

CSKA played more, but NBA Europe Live is still preseason. Anyways 2 weeks(by CSKA) and 6 days ( Clippers) are different...but still...


1st,Livingston was not carefull with the ball)))2nd....the D )))


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## Free Arsenal

Meh, it's just basketball.

I like the fact that the clippers lost, hell, it shows how the rest of the NBA stacks up when a play-off caliber team loses like this, even if it is "just pre-season."

I want to see the NBA turn into the INBA, I want to see newer transportation technology make basketball into an international game, I want to see an international league outside of North America.

I'm sick and tired of all this, "america is the best" crap, sustained success of being the best is the hardest thing to do and the U.S.A is proving itself incapable.

Athletic wins are going to other countries, in both Basketball as well as many other sports.

Economy is going to China, the Red Dragon, same with the world's supply of men.

Either way, America isn't all that great anymore... say hello to a brave new world folks. :clap: 

One where everyone has to work hard.


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## Futurama_Fanatic

wow i never thought i would see commotion over a preseason loss. the world is improving in basketball and the usa reached its zenith in the 90s. its just another thing to get use to.


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## Darth Bryant

Talk about blowing a preseason loss out of proportion... Big deal? I dont know the minutes the team played, and I didn't get a chance to watch the game... But it's not like Mike is going to play his starters the majority of the minutes and risk getting injuried in a game that means nothing.

Come on, it's just an excuse for people to come and talk smack on the clippers. Much ado about nothing.


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## Darth Bryant

9diamonds said:


> why did Shaun Livingston have so many turnovers?



Because he is 19 year old point guard with limited experiance and play time.


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## yamaneko

Great warmup for the Clippers. Sure a lot better than regular nonsense preseason games where 15 guys get PT. Biggest thing that killed the clippers was the plays. Looks like dunleavvy just got completely out coached, or else, the clippers are going to take a week or two to relearn the plays. So many isolation plays, hardly any ball movment, set plays were a rarity, standing around a lot, while cska was running great plays to get their guys open looks, back door looks, etc. 

Hey, if this was like in the middle of the season for both teams, and in the USA (not necessarily at staples center), it wouldnt have been a contest. There is a reason that guys like langdon cant get a contract in the nba. Because they stink at the nba game. Cska has nba talent on the team, but not near the level of the clippers. If they tried to come to our house when both teams had had half season under their belt, on an nba court, nba rules, etc., it wouldnt be a contest.


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## leidout

yamaneko said:


> Great warmup for the Clippers. Sure a lot better than regular nonsense preseason games where 15 guys get PT. Biggest thing that killed the clippers was the plays. Looks like dunleavvy just got completely out coached, or else, the clippers are going to take a week or two to relearn the plays. So many isolation plays, hardly any ball movment, set plays were a rarity, standing around a lot, while cska was running great plays to get their guys open looks, back door looks, etc.
> 
> Hey, if this was like in the middle of the season for both teams, and in the USA (not necessarily at staples center), it wouldnt have been a contest. There is a reason that guys like langdon cant get a contract in the nba. Because they stink at the nba game. Cska has nba talent on the team, but not near the level of the clippers. If they tried to come to our house when both teams had had half season under their belt, on an nba court, nba rules, etc., it wouldnt be a contest.


That's exactly what people have been saying before every international competition for the past 6 years, only to watch the americans lose repeatedly. Time have changed, the international style game is superior in many ways. The american style is too focused on making one or two player do 30-40% of the work. How many times have you heard this said in the NBA: "If you can just stop Kobe/AI/LeBron/Dirk/Duncan/KG/Brand/Shaq/Wade/etc, then you can defeat the whole team" 

A lot of the old-timers i know have been complaining that no one can shoot or pass anymore in the NBA, you can obviously mention the big stars who do this, but the majority of the "role" players & rookies who make up 90% of the league simply do not have fundamental skills besides athleticism... this brings down the overall quality of the entire league. Preseason or not, pretty much all the coaches & players are "supposedly" not capable of playing at an NBA level, yet we keep losing...

A completely international league would be awesome, games wouldn't have to be played too often during regular season, but sticking the euroleague and the others in the playoffs or a true "world championship" game could work pretty well. The best thing that could happen to the NBA is if we lost, that way the Americans would realize that the international game has caught up and it's gonna take more than highlight reel dunks & circus shots to win.


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## yamaneko

> That's exactly what people have been saying before every international competition for the past 6 years, only to watch the americans lose repeatedly.


What do you call repeatedly? US teams barely even play european teams lately, let alone lose repeatedly. Wasnt the 76rs loss the first US loss in europe since 1987?



> Time have changed, the international style game is superior in many ways. The american style is too focused on making one or two player do 30-40% of the work.


Depends on how you look at it. Sometimes it could be said that Princeton's offense in the 90's was superior than any other college's offense. But did that always mean victories? Did that mean it drew the best crowds? "supierority" is very subjective. 



> Preseason or not, pretty much all the coaches & players are "supposedly" not capable of playing at an NBA level, yet we keep losing...


Again, what do you mean by "keep" losing? Are you referring to the international team's few losses as well? (even thats like, what? 5 losses in the last 10 years+?) Its like saying USA NFL guys lose to some rugby guys at rugby. Doesnt matter that the NFL guys are better athletes. They will lose to the rugby guys a lot if theyre playing the rugby guy's game. 



> The best thing that could happen to the NBA is if we lost, that way the Americans would realize that the international game has caught up and it's gonna take more than highlight reel dunks & circus shots to win.


I disagree. That wouldnt happen, because like i said, USA team will never dominate international teams like 90% of the time like before if they play the international game, international court, rules, etc. Same with the internationals. They will never dominate the NBA rules/game, playing over here. NBA will always be fine with their dunks and circus shots, because thats all they need t owin in in the nba. I dont think people care enough about these once every 4 year tournaments like the olympics and championships to change the whole culture of the game just to win it. Its obvious just looking at this last year, despite so much to "prove" how many good players turned down being on the national team.

Im not saying i agree with the nba's stance, but i just dont think its something that will change any time soon.


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## DjPro

yamaneko said:


> What do you call repeatedly? US teams barely even play european teams lately, let alone lose repeatedly. Wasnt the 76rs loss the first US loss in europe since 1987?


Maccabi defeated Toronto last year...in Canada, with the NBA rules)))




yamaneko said:


> Im not saying i agree with the nba's stance, but i just dont think its something that will change any time soon.


+1 here. 



yamaneko said:


> If they tried to come to our house when both teams had had half season under their belt, on an nba court, nba rules, etc., it wouldnt be a contest.


 Look at the rules at the current preseason NBA Europe Live - these are mostly from NBA. Just don't say that.... believe me it WOULD be a contest.
But why NBA rules?


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## yamaneko

> Maccabi defeated Toronto last year...in Canada, with the NBA rules)))


Look at my quote though, i had said first us loss in europe since 87. 



> Look at the rules at the current preseason NBA Europe Live - these are mostly from NBA. Just don't say that.... believe me it WOULD be a contest.
> But why NBA rules?


Yeah, "mostly" but not all. 3 point line, lane shape, and who knows what else. We might think its not big issues, but for people who practice for thousands of hours at a different style game, it does make a difference. This is also why the huge "stars" from europe dont automatically start lighting it up when they come here. Look at the veterans who have come here, not many have had the same success they had in europe, and some dont pan out at all. Because theyve been used to a different set of rules and court, etc. for so long, its hard to adjust. 

Thats why i wish the world would just adopt a GLOBAL game. Everyone plays by NBA rules, or everyone plays by international rules, or everyone plays by a mixture of the two. Look at great global games like soccer for example. They dont have the huge differences from country to country like basketball has. (outside of course of overtime, which really doesnt change the way you play the game). Golf is gold wherever you go. Tennis is tennis, everyone has to play on the different courts. Baseball is NOT that great of a global game yet, and what do we have? different park sizes, different ball sizes, different pitching rules, etc. similar with basketball. HOckey is actually more of a global game, but honestly i dont know enough about it to know the different rules from international/NHL/Europe, etc.


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## DjPro

Yeah...all the world except for the NBA plays FIBA rules)))
IMHO the veterans from europe aren't shining here mostly because of "the way the game is played"....not the rules....


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## leidout

yamaneko said:


> What do you call repeatedly? US teams barely even play european teams lately, let alone lose repeatedly. Wasnt the 76rs loss the first US loss in europe since 1987?


*sigh* don't know why i'm getting into this with you, you're incapable of understanding other points of view, but it's a slow work day after all... The US has lost in international competition (including FIBA/Olympics) about 7 times in 6 years by my count... the previous 6 years before that: 0 losses.



yamaneko said:


> Depends on how you look at it. Sometimes it could be said that Princeton's offense in the 90's was superior than any other college's offense. But did that always mean victories? Did that mean it drew the best crowds? "supierority" is very subjective.


superior in the way that a team with inferior talent can play at a very high level, masking their individual weaknesses.... a TEAM concept *gasp*. try telling kobe that since you kept saying during FIBA that the US would've won with kobe.



yamaneko said:


> Again, what do you mean by "keep" losing? Are you referring to the international team's few losses as well? (even thats like, what? 5 losses in the last 10 years+?) Its like saying USA NFL guys lose to some rugby guys at rugby. Doesnt matter that the NFL guys are better athletes. They will lose to the rugby guys a lot if theyre playing the rugby guy's game.


Keep losing meaning we haven't won anything of significance internationally in 6+ years, and no it's not like rugby vs nfl, it's like NFL vs Arena Football. NFL should win everytime despite the rules because they're better athletes, but if the Arena guys keep surprising them, wouldn't you logically think maybe your assumption was flawed? 



yamaneko said:


> I disagree. That wouldnt happen, because like i said, USA team will never dominate international teams like 90% of the time like before if they play the international game, international court, rules, etc. Same with the internationals. They will never dominate the NBA rules/game, playing over here. NBA will always be fine with their dunks and circus shots, because thats all they need t owin in in the nba. I dont think people care enough about these once every 4 year tournaments like the olympics and championships to change the whole culture of the game just to win it. Its obvious just looking at this last year, despite so much to "prove" how many good players turned down being on the national team. Im not saying i agree with the nba's stance, but i just dont think its something that will change any time soon.


Individual foreign players won't dominate the same way because of the style of the game, but i think inserting the euroleague championship squad into the NBA would stand a very good chance to go deep in the playoffs. Like most Americans, i care about winning, and it pisses me off everytime we send these glorified street ballers out to embarass our country (it's every 2 years years also). Basic skills are so lacking in the NBA that guys like Duncan & Brand are way beyond most other bigmen just because they have above average basic skills.


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## yamaneko

> *sigh* don't know why i'm getting into this with you, you're incapable of understanding other points of view, but it's a slow work day after all... The US has lost in international competition (including FIBA/Olympics) about 7 times in 6 years by my count... the previous 6 years before that: 0 losses.


I thought we were talking about the actual subject of the post, which is a US team playing a european team, not all star teams playing each other. 



> superior in the way that a team with inferior talent can play at a very high level, masking their individual weaknesses.... a TEAM concept *gasp*. try telling kobe that since you kept saying during FIBA that the US would've won with kobe.


Yes, thats true, IMO, they would have taken it with Kobe, because they werent that far of from winning it as it was, and that was with carmelo being the guy trying to take over the game and not being successful. OVer the game, give kobe the minutes instead of joe johnson, etc. and we would have put more points on the board. Isnt kobe a good defender as well? 



> Keep losing meaning we haven't won anything of significance internationally in 6+ years, and no it's not like rugby vs nfl, it's like NFL vs Arena Football. NFL should win everytime despite the rules because they're better athletes, but if the Arena guys keep surprising them, wouldn't you logically think maybe your assumption was flawed?


That is a very interesting point, and I really dont think its neceesarily true. You stick an NFL team a few weeks after their season into an arena game, yes they have better atheletes, but if they dont have the absolute best there, and they havent prepared enough for the different rules, etc, its not guaranteed victory. Thats actually a very good comparison. Just like you couldnt put the chargers against the AFL champions with one week of practice and expect domination. Now, put the arena guys and the NFL guys on NFL's game , yes, NFL always on top.



> Individual foreign players won't dominate the same way because of the style of the game, but i think inserting the euroleague championship squad into the NBA would stand a very good chance to go deep in the playoffs.


I strongly disagree based on the above again. You put a team who has been playing international rules, ball, etc. etc. for months, and then stick them in the middle of NBA courts/rules/etc. you think they will even win a game? Possible, but not likely. How many times will they by instinct get goaltending, trying to take the ball off the rim? What about forgetting about the little no charge zone where you cant take offensive fouls. What about trying to "feel" the new three point line? Different hand checking rules. ETc. etc. Same way i dont think you can put the miami heat into the euro league championships and expect victory. 



> Like most Americans, i care about winning, and it pisses me off everytime we send these glorified street ballers out to embarass our country (it's every 2 years years also). Basic skills are so lacking in the NBA that guys like Duncan & Brand are way beyond most other bigmen just because they have above average basic skills.


These arent glorified street ballers, they great atheletes, who with the right coaching would be great. Problem is american coaches, outside of d'atonio maybe, just dont seem to know how to coach international ball. If you arent going to play the international game, you better send the absolute best and brightest to win on talent alone. Just sending a couple superstars and a bunch of role players with non-international coaching/preparation isnt going to get it done. By the way, I said once every 4 year tournaments like the olympics and championships which are once every 4 years each. 

Anyway, all this talk is pretty much moot. I DOUBT FIBA will ever go to NBA rules, and i DOUBT stern will ever go to FIBA rules. 

On a side note, how many here would like something like that....like a global team competition after championships? Soccer has something like that, heck even basketball in europe has that with the final four. Id love to see that. But again the problem would be, whose rules do you play by.


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## DjPro

yamaneko said:


> What about forgetting about the little no charge zone where you cant take offensive fouls.


This works in Europe too))))


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## yamaneko

Really? In the world championships i didnt see that half circle under the basket? They have that too?


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## DjPro

In da Euroleague...


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## yamaneko

So euroleague also has different rules than Fiba? What else other than that?


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## NOFX22

What was there starting lineup?


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## yamaneko

clippers was brand kaman ross mobley cassell


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## DjPro

yamaneko said:


> So euroleague also has different rules than Fiba? What else other than that?


Starting from this year AFAIK FIBA will have the same rules as Euroleague.

In the 05-06 season EL altered a few FIBA rules...
1)No-Offesnive-foul circle
2)In the end of the game ( 2 minutes i guess ) each team begins after a timeout at the halfcourt...
...maybe smthg more, but this year all the FIBA rules will be the same....

If it does really matter - i can try to find this info....


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## leidout

yamaneko said:


> On a side note, how many here would like something like that....like a global team competition after championships? Soccer has something like that, heck even basketball in europe has that with the final four. Id love to see that. But again the problem would be, whose rules do you play by.


I'd love to see that, it's pretty tough to believe the NBA champs are the definitive World Champions anymore, i think the Euroleague champs could compete with the best of the NBA, not saying they'd win or anything, but the games wouldn't be blowouts. Obviously some sort of rule compromises would need to be made, it might be good for the NBA, i think the game has slowed down too much. I'm really tired of the last 2 minutes of game time taking nearly half an hour.


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## Weasel

yamaneko said:


> On a side note, how many here would like something like that....like a global team competition after championships? Soccer has something like that, heck even basketball in europe has that with the final four. Id love to see that. But again the problem would be, whose rules do you play by.



I would enjoy that a lot. A sort of Champions league where 4 of the top teams go on to compete against the top teams in the world. Soccer is a prime example of how that sort of thing should be set up.


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