# One and Only Finals Discussion Thread!



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

*Finals Observation*

With all the talk about the trends toward "small ball"...

Heat Shaq/Zo

Mavs Dirk

Not only do the two finalists have bigger lineups, they have two of the finest big men in the game.


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*

Yep
"Races aren't always won by the swift or fights by the strong... but that's where the smart money is"


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

*Re: Finals Observation*



> With all the talk about the trends toward "small ball"...
> 
> Heat Shaq/Zo
> 
> Mavs Dirk


It will be interesting to see how Avery Johnson plans to attack the Heat as they can play both styles quite well. Small ball could be effective, but it is a different Heat team compared to what we were against in round 1.

Going to be a great finals, winners being the fans!


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

*Re: Finals Observation*



DaBullz said:


> With all the talk about the trends toward "small ball"...
> 
> Heat Shaq/Zo
> 
> ...


Well, my thoughts are that while Dirk is a 7', he's also not a post player. I would be in favor of a 7' that could shoot outside than someone like Shaq or Mourning who are pounders underneath the basket. He can of course still defend big guys, but has the athleticism to guard smaller guys, and can shoot outside, so his size, range and athleticism create mismatches in his favor all the time. I think that with the Heat getting in with Shaq and Mourning it does show that the pounding bigs era is not completely over though, if it ever will be.


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## LegoHat (Jan 14, 2004)

*Re: Finals Observation*



DaBabyBullz said:


> Well, my thoughts are that while Dirk is a 7', he's also not a post player. I would be in favor of a 7' that could shoot outside than someone like Shaq or Mourning who are pounders underneath the basket. He can of course still defend big guys, but has the athleticism to guard smaller guys, and can shoot outside, so his size, range and athleticism create mismatches in his favor all the time.


And that's why you're represented in my signature. Oh, and I completely agree.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Finals Observation*



darlets said:


> Yep
> "Races aren't always won by the swift or fights by the strong... but that's where the smart money is"


Great quote. Who are you quoting?


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Finals Observation*



DaBabyBullz said:


> Well, my thoughts are that while Dirk is a 7', he's also not a post player. I would be in favor of a 7' that could shoot outside than someone like Shaq or Mourning who are pounders underneath the basket. He can of course still defend big guys, but has the athleticism to guard smaller guys, and can shoot outside, so his size, range and athleticism create mismatches in his favor all the time. I think that with the Heat getting in with Shaq and Mourning it does show that the pounding bigs era is not completely over though, if it ever will be.


The era will never end without major rule changes, particularly after next year's draft.

It will not be pretty watching Dallas trying to defend Shaq and Zo. This is going to be a short series, unless Dallas can do a good imitation of the Bulls -- and even then they will go in 6.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

*Re: Finals Observation*



> It will not be pretty watching Dallas trying to defend Shaq and Zo. This is going to be a short series, unless Dallas can do a good imitation of the Bulls -- and even then they will go in 6.


Dallas won't need to imitate us, they're better at the small ball game than we are. Obviously alot will ride on if they can contain Shaq or everyone else bar him, but the loss of DJ Mbenga will hurt as they lose another 6 fouls there. Avery Johnson has done a marvellous job so far, with him at the helm I can't see how the series will be a short one.

Who has home court advantage?


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## LegoHat (Jan 14, 2004)

*Re: Finals Observation*

Series schedule:

Thu 8: Miami @ Dallas 
Sun 11: Miami @ Dallas 
Tue 13: Dallas @ Miami
Thu 15: Dallas @ Miami 
Sun 18: Dallas @ Miami (if necessary) 
Tue 20: Miami @ Dallas (if necessary) 
Thu 22: Miami @ Dallas (if necessary)


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Finals Observation*



McBulls said:


> It will not be pretty watching Dallas trying to defend Shaq and Zo. This is going to be a short series, unless Dallas can do a good imitation of the Bulls -- and even then they will go in 6.


It will not be pretty watching Miami try to defend Dirk, along with Terry and Harris, and Howard, and Stackhouse. Way too much speed and athleticism, plus they have the big bodies to throw at Shaq. 

It wasn't pretty watching Dallas try to defend Tim Duncan (better than both Shaq and Zo), but they still defeated the defending champs. This series will play out much the same. 

Dallas will win in 6.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



McBulls said:


> The era will never end without major rule changes, particularly after next year's draft.
> 
> It will not be pretty watching Dallas trying to defend Shaq and Zo. This is going to be a short series, unless Dallas can do a good imitation of the Bulls -- and even then they will go in 6.


Dallas has two of the better built Shaq defenders in the league.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*

Allow me another observation:

Dallas is #2 in team payroll at $96,688,147
Miami is #11 in team payroll at $62,500,236

Miami's payroll would be significantly higher if Wade wasn't still on his rookie contract.

(Bulls are 28th in payroll at $47,845,093)

According to hoopshype


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



DaBullz said:


> Allow me another observation:
> 
> Dallas is #2 in team payroll at $96,688,147
> Miami is #11 in team payroll at $62,500,236
> ...


Since all the bulls best players are, like Wade, on their rookie contracts, I don't see what this comparison is supposed to imply.


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Finals Observation*



TripleDouble said:


> Since all the bulls best players are, like Wade, on their rookie contracts, I don't see what this comparison is supposed to imply.


The implication is that unless you are San Antonio or Detroit, chances are that you will be paying a luxury tax if you make it to the NBA finals.

So at some point it's helpful for a franchise to kiss the idea of avoiding the tax goodbye if it aspires to win the championship.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



TripleDouble said:


> Since all the bulls best players are, like Wade, on their rookie contracts, I don't see what this comparison is supposed to imply.


my guess is experience counts for something , 

its ok to have one or 2 of your best 5 in rookie deals ...but the bulls have at least 4 of their best 5 possibly their 5 best players depending on where you put tyson after a sup par season...and even he is only 23.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

*Re: Finals Observation*

It should be an interesting finals. Dirk is the best non post man ever, best foreign player ever. Shaq is the best center ever, Wade is a superstar shooting guard, but guys like Josh Howard are stepping up big. Not to mention two coaching greats are going at it, should be interesting.

I say Miami in 6.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



McBulls said:


> The implication is that unless you are San Antonio or Detroit, chances are that you will be paying a luxury tax if you make it to the NBA finals.
> 
> So at some point it's helpful for a franchise to kiss the idea of avoiding the tax goodbye if it aspires to win the championship.


 and what a weak implication it is. . . 

San Antonio and Detroit been the most dominant teams over the last few years?!

I also remember Reinsdorf shelling out big-dollars once the championship ball got rolling. There are a lot of reasons to criticize our franchise. The current level of spending is not one of them.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



McBulls said:


> Great quote. Who are you quoting?


I think its a paraphrase, but Damon Runyon had the original quote.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



such sweet thunder said:


> I also remember Reinsdorf shelling out big-dollars once the championship ball got rolling. There are a lot of reasons to criticize our franchise. The current level of spending is not one of them.


Perhaps, but I do sense, from following Jerry's teams for several years, a reluctance to lock players up to long term contracts. Oftentimes its the right move (Alverez, Fernandez, McDowell, Herdandez) but oftentimes it leads to behaviour that does not maximize value for the Bulls (Curry, Crawford). There is a powerful incentive, IMO, to do as best as you can with rookie (slave labor) contracts, especially if you pack the place without being a contender. So, I think decisions are made with the fear of being locked into a bad contract always clouding the room, as it should be. Paxson, IMO, is indecisive and waits too long on his pay or punt decisions, leading to lousy return on assets for the Bullies.

The current level of spending may be adequate, but who we spent the money on this year (TimThomas, Chandler) is downright foolish. A titanic waste of money.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

*Re: Finals Observation*



> and what a weak implication it is. . .


Indeed, Detroit and San Antonio are no longer the only teams that manage to provide a quality roster at a reasonable price. Having a look at the performers this year, Dallas was the only conference finalist that was over the tax threshold. And most of that is them feeling the brunt of Cuban's eagerness to get to the next level using whatever means necessary that they went crazy with the cheque book. They have an amazing $30M in waived salaries this year alone, exclude that from their total and they're at a more respectable level of $68M.


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## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



DaBullz said:


> With all the talk about the trends toward "small ball"...
> 
> Heat Shaq/Zo
> 
> ...


Actually, I think the main "trend" with both of these teams is DEPTH. Both teams go 10 players deep.

Traditionally we've heard that rotations get shorter in the playoffs, but the Heat and Mavs keep their players fresh on the floor. I think depth is the #1 reason why Detroit did not advance further. Same with the Clippers, Nets, and Cavs. The Spurs and Suns both have great depth, but they just so happened to run into Dallas who is just as deep but playing better basketball (IMO, the Spurs would've beat anyone except Dallas this year).

So yeah, you're right that both teams have elite bigs, but I don't think that's the main reason they're here. The Heat role players have REALLY stepped up their games since playing us. And Dallas' role players have been great all year long.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



kukoc4ever said:


> Perhaps, but I do sense, from following Jerry's teams for several years, a reluctance to lock players up to long term contracts. Oftentimes its the right move (Alverez, Fernandez, McDowell, Herdandez) but oftentimes it leads to behaviour that does not maximize value for the Bulls (Curry, Crawford). There is a powerful incentive, IMO, to do as best as you can with rookie (slave labor) contracts, especially if you pack the place without being a contender. So, I think decisions are made with the fear of being locked into a bad contract always clouding the room, as it should be. Paxson, IMO, is indecisive and waits too long on his pay or punt decisions, leading to lousy return on assets for the Bullies.
> 
> The current level of spending may be adequate, but who we spent the money on this year (TimThomas, Chandler) is downright foolish. A titanic waste of money.


I don't really buy it. 

Alverez, Fernandez, McDowell, and Hernandez are all pitchers. I don't know much about baseball, but I know that pitchers, and centers are not comparable.

Perhaps your point about Paxson (that rhymes) being tentative is valid, but I don't understand your link with salary. Furthermore, if anything, Paxson's tentativeness may play to his strengths. He has drafted his *** off. It's probably in the Bull's interest for Pax to keep the picks and see if his hot streak holds. 



> The current level of spending may be adequate, but who we spent the money on this year (TimThomas, Chandler) is downright foolish. A titanic waste of money.


So we're in agreement? If you feel this way, I don't really understand what we're arging about. . . Toss in the 3 million shell out for Deng's pick, and Reinsdorf has a proven track record for paying to field a competitive team.


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## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



McBulls said:


> Great quote. Who are you quoting?


 When I don't know I just attribute Samuel Clemons.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



> Pat Riley's not sleeping tonight.
> 
> The list of problems the Dallas Mavericks present to the Miami Heat is long -- they defend all over the floor, they can run, Nowitzki's unguardable, Howard can do most everything -- and it got longer with the second half Jason Terry put together in Game 6 against Phoenix.
> 
> ...


espn.com


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

For bragging rights. 

Vote and post your call.



Dallas Mavericks have the mojo, homecourt advantage and the refs are in Cubans pocket. They'll get it done. Avery should have been COY.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

I think the Mavs will get it.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*

another interesting observation.
what do jason terry, stackhouse, van horn, the glove, antoine walker, zo, all have in common? 

at one point in their careers they tried to be the man and had limited success. 
it's getting lost in all the small ball talk, but how about this:
you can build a championship contending team by finding guys who 'failed' at being a #1 option.
take advantage of their learning experience, their skills, and find a way to win with them as a 2nd or 3rd option.


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## Future (Jul 24, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

Dallas and I got 50 bucks on it.


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## The Future7 (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

The Mavs because they can't be stopped and they play big.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

I want the Mavs to win. Don't like Mark Cuban much. but I like Avery Johnson and Del Harris. Besides that, the Mavs seem to be more of a team than the Heat.


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## taurus515th (Oct 13, 2005)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

i think the heat will win. im not for the heat or anything but the NBA is fixed. i think that dallas is the better team tho. but someway the heat had to get the finals this year. thats y i was rooting 4 detroit to win. since pat riley build the team and then took over as coach they had too get to the finals because it would look bad on his part and he would most likely have gotten fired if he didnt. im not even going to watch the NBA finals because of this. but go mavs because i really do not like the heat.


what are the odds that both teams who have never been to the finals before get their in the same year? the NBA is fixed i tell u.

go mavs.


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## LegoHat (Jan 14, 2004)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

Mavs will win, between Diop and Dampier they have enough to throw at Shaq, and nobody on the Heat can guard Dirk.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

Mavs.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

I'll go with the Heat. Shaq is peaking at absolutely the right time. The Heat has a huge experience/leadership advantage -- I'm pretty sure no one on Dallas has ever played a Finals game, whereas Shaq has three rings and Riley's coached in more Finals than I can count. Payton and Mourning will leave their hearts on the floor, as this is their best last chance. 

Generally speaking, I think we're all forgetting to factor in the Heat when we think in the long-term about the Eastern Conference. I could easily see Shaq doing what Kareem did -- playing at an All-Star level until the age of 40, letting Wade and the surrounding cast do the heavy lifting through the regular season and early rounds of the playoffs, and then turning it on for those last two rounds. Wade'll be at his absolute peak while Shaq is still a very, very effective player.

I'll say the Heat in six highly entertaining games. And then we can boast that we took the eventual NBA champion to the brink in the most competitive opening-round six-games-where-the-two-clinching-games-were-decided-by-15.5-points series in NBA history


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

Hmm...

I guess I'll go with Dallas, but I don't feel particularly good about that pick. I think the x-factor is point guard play. If Harris can penetrate at will against the Heat, and I suspect he'll be able to, it's going to cause some serious problems for Miami...


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## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

Dirk will go off this series. Miami couldn't handle Nocioni, imagine what Dirk will do to them. 

I think Jason Terry / Devin Harris will be key for the Mavs. Size and style wise, they are similar to Gordon / Hinrich. 

Basically, I could see Dallas having the same kind of success we had against the Heat, but they have more size to throw at Shaq (Dampier, Diop) and Wade (Howard, Daniels). 

I'm looking forward to Cuban's ranting through the press about Shaq's offensive fouls. You know he's gonna be all over Shaq the entire series.

Mavs in 6.


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## goblue2525 (May 24, 2006)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

I'm going with the Heat. Lots of people have been doubting them but they just keep winning. I also think that Haslem has the athleticism to give Dirk problems. The real matchup to watch is Howard vs. Walker since Walker gives smaller defenders problems and Howard's quickness will give Walker fits. Heat in 7 at Dallas.


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## Ventura (Aug 9, 2005)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

yeah i think it'll be dallas too. noone can stop dirk and dallas is just too deep and young for the old and slow heat. i'm with what salo said.

d in 6


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

Well I had the Heat playing against Houston so atleast I got one right. Ill go with the Heat.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

Miami. Yeah, no one on Miami can guard Dirk but who on Dallas can guard Shaq or DWade?


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

I personally love the Mavs and Cuban as an owner. However this is likely Payton's last real shot to get it all as it is likely going to be the end of his career if he wins. I'll be happy with whichever team wins and this is likely the first time I could say this ever.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



such sweet thunder said:


> He has drafted his *** off. It's probably in the Bull's interest for Pax to keep the picks and see if his hot streak holds.


I disagree. 3 lotto picks burned and not 1 superstar. We have 3 solid, coachable, NCAA pedigree players that will continue leading us to .500ish ball. He played it safe and got us to average, which is our cap, IMO, with the current roster. I hope he can land a difference maker in the off season.

EDIT:

The "current level of spending" is acceptable, although I expect the ultra-profitable Bulls to go into tax-land when the time comes, if we have a team worth keeping together.. What they are spending on (Tim Thomas, Chandler) and decisions made in the past to avoid long-term obligations are fairly subject to criticism.


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## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*



CiMa said:


> Miami. Yeah, no one on Miami can guard Dirk but who on Dallas can guard Shaq or DWade?


who on Miami can guard
Dirk, Howard, Stackhouse, Harris, Terry and KVH?

Dallas will be able to play decent D on Wade with Howard, Griffin and Daniels...Shaq is unstoppabe, but the Mavs have 18 fouls to waste on him much like they did TD...Dallas will force Miami into a running game also...


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



step said:


> Indeed, Detroit and San Antonio are no longer the only teams that manage to provide a quality roster at a reasonable price. Having a look at the performers this year, Dallas was the only conference finalist that was over the tax threshold. And most of that is them feeling the brunt of Cuban's eagerness to get to the next level using whatever means necessary that they went crazy with the cheque book. They have an amazing $30M in waived salaries this year alone, exclude that from their total and they're at a more respectable level of $68M.


If you knock of the $14M that Thomas was paid to not play, the Bulls' payroll was about $34M.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



kukoc4ever said:


> EDIT:
> 
> The "current level of spending" is acceptable, although I expect the ultra-profitable Bulls to go into tax-land when the time comes, if we have a team worth keeping together.



I'm wit' ya on dat.


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## darlets (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



McBulls said:


> Great quote. Who are you quoting?


I didn't actually know, soI looked it up.

Damon Runyon

"Damon Runyon is a distinguished writer for his talented perception and portrayal of an America not commonly given to glory. In the years between World Wars, he wrote of bettors, bootleggers and Broadway.

After the scandals of political corruption and payoffs of the 1920s, the Stock Market collapse in1929, and ensuing Great Depression "30s, Runyon's tales of gamblers and gangsters who endeavored to beat the odds found a sympathetic audience.

His characters lived on the edge often caught in life's roll of the dice. Criminals, hustlers, con artists, and cheats filled his frequently humorous stories about big city backstreets and underground figures of the Prohibition Era. "


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## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

*Re: Finals Observation*



darlets said:


> I didn't actually know, soI looked it up.
> 
> Damon Runyon
> 
> ...


Thanks, I'll file that away in my wisdom folder.


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

*Re: Finals Observation*



DaBabyBullz said:


> Well, my thoughts are that while Dirk is a 7', he's also not a post player. I would be in favor of a 7' that could shoot outside than someone like Shaq or Mourning who are pounders underneath the basket. He can of course still defend big guys, but has the athleticism to guard smaller guys, and can shoot outside, so his size, range and athleticism create mismatches in his favor all the time. I think that with the Heat getting in with Shaq and Mourning it does show that the pounding bigs era is not completely over though, if it ever will be.


Dirk is noticably a bad defender. He couldn't guard a junior high backup 2 guard.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



such sweet thunder said:


> I also remember Reinsdorf shelling out big-dollars once the championship ball got rolling. There are a lot of reasons to criticize our franchise. The current level of spending is not one of them.


Not surprisingly, I don't agree with this one iota.

I'm not talking about player personnel, per se. It's not surprising that we're near the bottom in player payroll, given the youth of the team and given the seemingly endless parade of salary dumps that have taken place in the post-dynasty era. But I'm willing to give the Chairman and his hungry mouths another season or two to back up the oft-repeated claim that "we'll spend for a winner."

I'm talking about spending everywhere else -- spending not governed by a salary cap or any other restraint. Spending where a large-market, high-revenue team like the Bulls can actually carve out an advantage. Spending on things like assistant coaches, training staff, scouting, and so forth. 

I can't find the post, but a couple of years ago I analyzed the NBA Forbes valuation data, which also includes annual team revenue, operating income, and player payroll (including amounts not included in the salary cap, like contributions to retirement funds, health/disability insurance, and so on). The numbers revealed that the Bulls made their enormous profits not only by keeping the roster young and cheap, but also by keeping all other expenditures to a bare minimum. They were near the bottom of the league in non-player expenses as well.

There's never been any rational excuse for the Bulls to have one of the lowest-paid coaches (until recently) and lowest-paid GMs in the league. We have a minimal number of assistant coaches at bargain-basement salaries. As rlucas has been pointing out for years, we have a single scout responsible for covering the entire world outside of the United States. Hell, the penny pinching even extends as far as the painfully primitive Bulls.com. 

I've never advocated the Bulls' ownership go on a massive spending spree and throw good money after bad. But I fail to believe that some incremental advantage couldn't have been gained by spending a few extra million (out of 30-50 million in profit) on coaches, trainers, scouts, and other staff to make the team as good as it can be.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



DaBullz said:


> If you knock of the $14M that Thomas was paid to not play, the Bulls' payroll was about $34M.


Another $5.5M to ERob to not play and the Bulls' payroll was $28.8M for guys who actually played.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*



Dragnsmke1 said:


> who on Miami can guard
> Dirk, Howard, Stackhouse, Harris, Terry and KVH?
> 
> Dallas will be able to play decent D on Wade with Howard, Griffin and Daniels...Shaq is unstoppabe, but the Mavs have 18 fouls to waste on him much like they did TD...Dallas will force Miami into a running game also...


Posey can take the wing players. Anyone on Dallas who attempts to drive has to deal with running into Shaq and/or Zo.

This is going to be a good series, I see it going to 6 or 7 games, with Miami coming out on top. Miami is just too good to be denied and they've got vets who want it more than you can imagine.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*



knicksfan said:


> I personally love the Mavs and Cuban as an owner. However this is likely Payton's last real shot to get it all as it is likely going to be the end of his career if he wins. I'll be happy with whichever team wins and this is likely the first time I could say this ever.


You know, I think I'm with you in this post, except for Cuban...can't stand that guy. Would be nice to see Payton get a ring, and I like players on both teams. Gotta go with Dallas though cause of my UNC boy Stack, and I like Dirk. On the Heat I like Wade and Mourning. The one thing the Heat have against them in my eyes is Hasslett. Haven't been able to stand him since the Bulls game where he threw his mouth piece at the ref.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

Miami may get exposed in this series. They haven't went up against a quick team the entire playoffs except for the Bulls, who took them further than most expected for that very reason. 

Dallas is too fast and too athletic. Payton and Williams are good for defending playes like Kidd and Billups, who are stronger point guards, but honestly I think they'll be helpless against a couple guys like Terry and Harris. Dirk Nowitzki will keep picking apart the defense because nobody can guard him one on one. Josh Howard will keep getting layups right at the bucket. 

Coming off of a Phoenix series that Dallas wanted to slow down, this team is itching to get out and run someone out of the building. People have forgotten how quick, fast and athletic this team is. 

The Spurs had absolutely no answer for the Mavericks speed and quickness, and the Spurs are a more athletic team than the Heat are. 

Mavericks in 6.


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## step (Sep 19, 2005)

*Re: Finals Observation*



> ...
> But I fail to believe that some incremental advantage couldn't have been gained by spending a few extra million (out of 30-50 million in profit) on coaches, trainers, scouts, and other staff to make the team as good as it can be.


Bugger, I have to spread the rep around before giving it to you again ScottMay, but that was a great post which I whole-heartedly agree with.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Finals Observation*

I think a good observation is that the two teams in the finals are both very balanced, top to bottom left to right. Both the Mavericks and Heat have good big men, good guards, good wings, good depth. 

This applies for last year too. Duncan along with Parker and Ginobili, along with a deep bench. Pistons had Wallace and Wallace, with Billups, Prince and Hamilton. Not so much depth but a definite balance on the starting five. 

The Mavericks beat the Spurs with smallball, but that shouldn't take away from their team overall which is built very well. They can play many styles.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

I picked Miami before the season started so I will stick with them and hope I am right. Sure makes the Bulls look better for losing to them in the 1st round huh?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



> the images of Feb. 9 are foremost in their mind.
> 
> That night in Dallas, the Mavericks ran the Heat out of the gym with a 36-point rout on national television.
> --
> ...


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/05/sports/basketball/05mavs.html


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*

Both teams have a fair number of guys who've played key role who washed out in other locations and/or been considered losers and/or just weren't wanted back where they were:

Dallas:
* Diop (Cleveland)
* Terry (Atlanta)
* Stackhouse (Detroit, Washington)
* Josh Howard (OK, not really... but man, most everyone passed on this guy)
* Griffin (Chicago)
* Van Horn (Nets, Knicks, Bucks)

Miami:
* Williams (Memphis, Sacramento)
* Posey (Memphis, Houston, Denver)
* Walker (Dallas, Boston twice)
* Payton (Seattle, Milwaukee, Boston, Lakers)

Obviously they're both "big star" based teams, but both of them did a pretty good job of pulling guys off the scrap heap.


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



Mikedc said:


> Both teams have a fair number of guys who've played key role who washed out in other locations and/or been considered losers and/or just weren't wanted back where they were:
> 
> Dallas:
> * Diop (Cleveland)
> ...



Slightly OT: But I was musing last night about the Knicks could do the right their ship and it occured to me that they do in fact have a few pieces that, looking at Dallas and Miami, some other teams with a solid core might be willing to take a flier on.

While Marbury should probably just be sent home a la Tim Thomas, Francis and both Roses could probably be moved to some veteran teams to help the Knicks begin to dig out from underneath the baggage.

It could hurt our draft position next year.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*

LOL, I was just looking at the rosters and thinking the same think MikeDC.

If an organization is strong enough, they should be willing and able to take these "cancers" or "wash-outs" in and use them effecticly, as both these championship level squads do.

The Bulls undertook a fundamental shift in their organizational philosophy a couple years back, but we should be at the level now where a Jerry Stackhouse, Antoine Walker or Keith Van Horn can help us win playoff games as well.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



GB said:


> While Marbury should probably just be sent home a la Tim Thomas,


Its funny. Some teams talk about sending players home as a solution... others find a way to plug them in as starters and get to the conference finals.


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



kukoc4ever said:


> LOL, I was just looking at the rosters and thinking the same think MikeDC.
> 
> If an organization is strong enough, they should be willing and able to take these "cancers" or "wash-outs" in and use them effecticly, as both these championship level squads do.
> 
> The Bulls undertook a fundamental shift in their organizational philosophy a couple years back, but we should be at the level now where a Jerry Stackhouse, Antoine Walker or Keith Van Horn can help us win playoff games as well.


Whether you call it strength or maturity or whatever, the Bulls would have looked at a Stackhouse or a Antoine Walker as a team leader...and chaos would have ensued.

It's notable that neither is, Tim Thomas too, in their current situation...where they are now experiencing a bit of success.


----------



## step (Sep 19, 2005)

*Re: Finals Observation*



> "Nothing we haven't seen before; Chicago ran, Jersey ran.


The big difference is that Chicago and Jersey run because they need too, Dallas does it only when it benefits them. And I won't bother going into the obvious front court differences.


----------



## Buford T. (Mar 8, 2005)

*Re: Finals Observation*



McBulls said:


> The era will never end without major rule changes, particularly after next year's draft.
> 
> It will not be pretty watching Dallas trying to defend Shaq and Zo. This is going to be a short series, unless Dallas can do a good imitation of the Bulls -- and even then they will go in 6.


If anyone thought we got in the lane and caused foul troubles on Shaq and pushed the ball for easy hoops, wait to see what the Dallas guards/forwards can do. They aren't as good of shooters but they are better penetrators and finishers and I think they'll cause the Heat a lot of problems. On the other end, Howard and Harris could do a decent job on Wade and I think Dampier and Diop will be enough beef to make Shaq work hard. Shaq has to be highly motivated knowing he's taken so many games off the past couple years, his career will be done soon and this is likely his last chance for a ring. A motivated Shaq is still a monster if he can stay on the floor for long minutes.

Dallas in 7 but it will be quite a chess match in styles and adjustments.


----------



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

_i voted mavericks cause i have been thinking that all along. so mavs in seven._

and since it won't be The Sun, i wanted to share this brilliant "gone fishing" photoshop done by *Halo* over in the playoff Gone Fishing thread.

absolutely hilarious stuff!


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

Miami, Antione Walker will be the difference maker in this series.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*



ScottMay said:


> I'll go with the Heat. Shaq is peaking at absolutely the right time. The Heat has a huge experience/leadership advantage -- I'm pretty sure no one on Dallas has ever played a Finals game, whereas Shaq has three rings and Riley's coached in more Finals than I can count. Payton and Mourning will leave their hearts on the floor, as this is their best last chance.
> 
> Generally speaking, I think we're all forgetting to factor in the Heat when we think in the long-term about the Eastern Conference. I could easily see Shaq doing what Kareem did -- playing at an All-Star level until the age of 40, letting Wade and the surrounding cast do the heavy lifting through the regular season and early rounds of the playoffs, and then turning it on for those last two rounds. Wade'll be at his absolute peak while Shaq is still a very, very effective player.
> 
> I'll say the Heat in six highly entertaining games. And then we can boast that we took the eventual NBA champion to the brink in the most competitive opening-round six-games-where-the-two-clinching-games-were-decided-by-15.5-points series in NBA history


I'd rather see Dallas win, but I agree with Scott's analysis.


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*



TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I'd rather see Dallas win, but I agree with Scott's analysis.


I would rather see Dallas win, too, although I would probably never read Cuban's blog again.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*



ScottMay said:


> I would rather see Dallas win, too, although I would probably never read Cuban's blog again.


LMAO. True dat.


do the kids still say "true dat?


----------



## 7RINGS? (Sep 28, 2004)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

I hate the Heat for knocking the Bulls out but at the same time they beat the Pistons and if they beat the Mavs Kobe will be crying about it all summer and demand the Bulls to give up Chandler! This is what dreams are made of !!


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*



7RINGS? said:


> I hate the Heat for knocking the Bulls out but at the same time they beat the Pistons and if they beat the Mavs Kobe will be crying about it all summer and demand the Bulls to give up Chandler! This is what dreams are made of !!


From the Kobe perspective, I regret the fact that it is not a Phoenix/Miami finals.

What do you think would eat at Kobe's gut more: Shaq getting a ring this year or "what's his name" Raja Bell getting one? That kind of lose/lose situation for Kobe's summer would have been just fine with me.



The answer is probably still Shaq, but Raja getting one would certainly not sit well with the Kobester


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Miami may get exposed in this series. They haven't went up against a quick team the entire playoffs except for the Bulls, who took them further than most expected for that very reason.
> 
> Dallas is too fast and too athletic. Payton and Williams are good for defending playes like Kidd and Billups, who are stronger point guards, but honestly I think they'll be helpless against a couple guys like Terry and Harris. Dirk Nowitzki will keep picking apart the defense because nobody can guard him one on one. Josh Howard will keep getting layups right at the bucket.
> 
> ...



I agree. The Mavs are too deep, too talented, too fast, you name it. Plus here's something to consider...the Mavs have 2 of the most gigantic centers you'll find not named Shaq; Diop and Dampier. That's alot of bulk to throw at the Diesel. Diop has really been great defensively throughout the playoffs, and I think he'll continue to show his stuff against Shaq. And with a slowed down Shaq, the Heat will struggle big time. Plus Dirk has nobody to matchup with him; Haslem, Walker, and Posey? Dallas in 6.


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Finals Observation*



> In the summer of 2004 the Mavericks decided against trading Dirk Nowitzki to the Lakers for O'Neal's services, so the Lakers then dealt the Big Aristotle to the Heat. Riley wouldn't part with Dwyane Wade in his deal but still had enough to secure the Diesel Daddy.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/kelly_dwyer/06/05/champs.chumps/index.html


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*



ScottMay said:


> I would rather see Dallas win, too, although I would probably never read Cuban's blog again.


He's really full of it too...




> The Mavs CAN’T play Defense.
> The Mavs CAN’T play a half court game.
> The Mavs CAN’T get past the first round
> The Mavs CAN’T beat <fill in a team here > because <fill in an excuse here>
> ...


http://blogmaverick.com/entry/1234000030073727/


----------



## LegoHat (Jan 14, 2004)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

I like Cuban, in fact I'd like him to be the owner of the Bulls. From a fan perspective what's not to like? He is willing to spend an obscene amount of money and he brings a lot of publicity to the team by expressing his opinions in the press. He's just a passionate sportsfan like a lot of basketball fans, only difference is that he's insanely rich. I know I'd rather have a guy like him running my team, than some old, grumpy penny pincher...


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

**BUMP**

Poll closes tomorrow. Get your votes in folks.


----------



## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

I think Dallas will get it done. But I'm not highly confident about that prediction. 

It's pretty exciting to have two teams that are both evenly matched AND fun to watch. I mean, I respect San Antonio and Detroit and thought that series was a great battle, but at times that series was like watching paint dry. Besides Ginobili, neither team had much panache.

I enjoy watching both of these teams, and I don't think there's a clear favorite (unlike all those years when the Lakers/Spurs were overwhelming favorites against the East's sacrificial lamb). Good stuff.


----------



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

wither the heat?

dallas up 2-0!

shaq was fined $10,000 for skipping media interviews after game 2!

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/news/story?id=2480403


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

Do any of you guys who picked Miami think that Miami can win 4 of 5 against this Mavericks team?


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*



GB said:


> Do any of you guys who picked Miami think that Miami can win 4 of 5 against this Mavericks team?


Probably not. Since so few teams have swept the middle three games at home, they really needed to win one of the first two in Dallas.


----------



## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*



GB said:


> Do any of you guys who picked Miami think that Miami can win 4 of 5 against this Mavericks team?


 Nope. If I recall correctly, no team has ever swept all 3 at home after dropping the first 2. At this point I'll be surprised if Miami can make it last 6 games.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Miami has NO chance in winning this series.

Phoenix also would of ran Miami RIGHT out of the GYM. That would of took Shaq out the game, and NOBODY can run with Phoenix.

I feel bad for Wade. He had a nice young nucleus to grow with in Odom, Butler but they traded that away for a quick chance at a ring. Now Wade will be stuck with Grumpy Old Men for the next 3-4 years, who's window closes THIS year. Shaq getting $100 million over the next 4-5 years doesn't help much either.


----------



## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

The Heat look old and slow... exactly why I wanted us to play them. We didn't quite have the horses to pull it off, but they're badly exposed.


----------



## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

The ROY said:


> Miami has NO chance in winning this series.
> 
> Phoenix also would of ran Miami RIGHT out of the GYM. That would of took Shaq out the game, and NOBODY can run with Phoenix.
> 
> I feel bad for Wade. He had a nice young nucleus to grow with in Odom, Butler but they traded that away for a quick chance at a ring. Now Wade will be stuck with Grumpy Old Men for the next 3-4 years, who's window closes THIS year. Shaq getting $100 million over the next 4-5 years doesn't help much either.


 Which makes you wonder how long Wade will stick it out in Miami. They will probably never be under the cap and don't have any assets to trade in order to reload. Payton, Antoine, Posey, and Jason Williams aren't worth much in a trade and Shaq won't be going anywhere either. 

KG couldn't win by himself in Minnesota and I see KG as a far superior player to Wade.


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## Plush4life (May 26, 2006)

this will be the last nba finals dwayne wade will play in.


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## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

sp00k said:


> Which makes you wonder how long Wade will stick it out in Miami. They will probably never be under the cap and don't have any assets to trade in order to reload. Payton, Antoine, Posey, and Jason Williams aren't worth much in a trade and Shaq won't be going anywhere either.
> 
> KG couldn't win by himself in Minnesota and I see KG as a far superior player to Wade.


Yep...Nobodies gonna want any of those players. I also see Zo leaving them in FA and possibly heading to Dallas or San Antonio.

My problem is, even if they were rebuilding, I couldn't see ANY of the players on the team now FITTING on a Wade led team. Dorell Wright's supposed to be their SF of the future, but he gets NO playing time.

I don't think KG's superior to Wade though. Not only does Wade do EVERYTHING (like KG), but he's also clutch, something KG's never been.


----------



## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*



GB said:


> Do any of you guys who picked Miami think that Miami can win 4 of 5 against this Mavericks team?


 I think Miami can win two or maybe even 3 at home. I'm very iffy about winning one in Dallas-too hard.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Plush4life said:


> this will be the last nba finals dwayne wade will play in.


 This comment is so foolish it doesn't even deserve a response.


----------



## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

I hope Zo does. I just want him to get a ring. He deserves it.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

sp00k said:


> Which makes you wonder how long Wade will stick it out in Miami. They will probably never be under the cap and don't have any assets to trade in order to reload. Payton, Antoine, Posey, and Jason Williams aren't worth much in a trade and Shaq won't be going anywhere either.
> 
> KG couldn't win by himself in Minnesota and I see KG as a far superior player to Wade.


 Wade's the kind of guy that if Miami wants to re-sign him he will. He's signed through 2008 anyway. Then we can talk.


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## dogra (Nov 12, 2003)

_the ROY -- "Now Wade will be stuck with Grumpy Old Men for the next 3-4 years...."_

LMAO


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*



Flash is the Future said:


> I think Miami can win two or maybe even 3 at home. I'm very iffy about winning one in Dallas-too hard.


Miami HAS to sweep their home games. They cannot go back to Dallas having to win two games.

If they can't... :frenchy: 

...they shouldn't even return to Dallas.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Flash is the Future said:


> This comment is so foolish it doesn't even deserve a response.


Please don't spoil or change the thread direction.

Why not tell us why you find it to be foolish, instead of just saying that is?


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Flash is the Future said:


> Wade's the kind of guy that if Miami wants to re-sign him he will. He's signed through 2008 anyway. Then we can talk.


They said that same thing about Shaq in Orlando..

And about T-Mac in Toronto...

Why wouldn't that WANT to re-sign him? With the situation he's in right now, I wouldn't be tooo sold on him re-signing just yet.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Cuban said before Sunday's game that if the series goes to Game 7, he plans to give away any tickets that would normally be available for single-game sales.
> 
> Yes, give away. For free.
> 
> ...


Oh...and for those interested in the sports business, you should read in the lastest ESPN the Magazine what the commissioner of MLS is doing to grow his business. He's touted as a potential replacement for Taglibue, and you'll be able to see why.


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Agree or disagree?



> Still, a lot of Shaq's issues stem from the lion-in-winter factor. He's explicitly relied on his bulk and relative quickness to dominate thus far in his career -- and now that this quickness has more or less dissipated, he's morphed into a nonentity. And while O'Neal should be lauded for putting up with 14 seasons of hacks and body blows, *he needs to take the blame for never developing a series of offensive moves meant to counter Father Time*. Outside of a shaky, Wilt Chamberlain-esque turnaround bank shot, Shaq hasn't debuted any new low-post gambits since the turn of the century, and this series' stats (11 points, 6.5 rebounds in 33 minutes per game) are the result.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/kelly_dwyer/06/12/champs.chumps/index.html


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

I agree. Even the great Michael Jeffrey Jordan adapted his game as he aged, developing that devastating fadeaway, as the true "Air" years began to fade. He also put plenty of muscle on his rack as the years went on and he couldn't rely on that explosive speed alone anymore.


I also blame Shaq for never developing a free throw technique that worked. 

I have heard that the real "blame" for Aristotle's pathetic perfrmance at the charity stripe is a bum right wrist, carried over from a childhood injury.

The free throw docs say they can teach a no-sports secretary to shoot 80% or better in an afternoon.

If his right wrist won't extend, there is no reason that an elite athlete couldn't learn to shoot FTs at a reasonable percentage with his left hand.

Never even tried it, as far as I know.

No. Shaq decied a long time ago that he was a dominating player, and became complacent about ever working on changing, adapting or improving.


----------



## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Pat Riley, I believe the Mavericks are "15 Strong", and that is why they will win the Championship. Nonetheless, your deep bench ("15 Strong) cannot play any D or match up to Dallas' uptempo or half-court paced game. Will you make another roster overhaul next year Pat?


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

I hope the Bulls someday make the finals again.

That would be quite an accomplishment.


----------



## Dragnsmke1 (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*



Flash is the Future said:


> I think Miami can win two or maybe even 3 at home. I'm very iffy about winning one in Dallas-too hard.


if Miami had only lost by 3,4 maybe even 5 points in Dallas to might have a good leg to stand on but the lost by 10 and 14(27 really)...if you include regular season they also lost by 36 and 20 something...The Heat in 4 games have gone 0-4 and never even had a single digit loss, the best they can hope for in Miami is 3 close games where they luck out and win 2...but we'll talk about them winning even 1 when they can only lose by single digits, o.k.?


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> II also blame Shaq for never developing a free throw technique that worked.
> 
> I have heard that the real "blame" for Aristotle's pathetic perfrmance at the charity stripe is a bum right wrist, carried over from a childhood injury.
> 
> The free throw docs say they can teach a no-sports secretary to shoot 80% or better in an afternoon.


Rick Barry said he should shoot them underhand the way Rick used to do. Here's Barry from a six year old story:



> Despite the logic of a granny approach to foul shooting, no NBA player has used it since Barry retired in 1980. "That baffles me," Barry says. "With the underhand shot, I could make 80 percent of my throws with my eyes closed. And I do mean closed." Over the years he has tried to convert everyone from four of his sons who have played professionally to O'Neal to Chris Dudley— but nobody paid any attention. "A lot of guys who are lousy at the free throw would be prime candidates for this, but they just won't do it," says Barry, who for the last five years coached a minor-league team called the Florida Sea Dragons. "I mean, how can guys call themselves professionals when they can't even make 60 percent of their free throws? Where's their sense of pride?"


http://www.discover.com/issues/oct-00/departments/featphysics/

Maybe Tyson should shoot his free throws underhanded.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

Yeah I know, and shaq was too proud to try it granny style.

But shooting it lefty has a kinda Rocky III cool vibe to it.


----------



## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

Wade's been terribly sick-OK? Eventually he'll get his legs back.


----------



## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> I agree. Even the great Michael Jeffrey Jordan adapted his game as he aged, developing that devastating fadeaway, as the true "Air" years began to fade. He also put plenty of muscle on his rack as the years went on and he couldn't rely on that explosive speed alone anymore.
> 
> 
> I also blame Shaq for never developing a free throw technique that worked.
> ...


 He broke both wrists.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*



Sir Patchwork said:


> Miami may get exposed in this series. They haven't went up against a quick team the entire playoffs except for the Bulls, who took them further than most expected for that very reason.


Right on point so far. The Mavericks just play at another speed than the Heat, but they are very in control while doing it. 

I picked the Mavericks in 6, but I put 50 dollars on them winning in 5 (mainly because I thought 5 and 6 were equally likely, and the odds on 5 were much better). At this point, 6 games looks like the maximum for this series. 

I'm thinking Miami will win game 3, game 4 will be the close right at the buzzer type of game, could go either way, and game 5 will go to Dallas. Whoever wins game 4 will decide whether series goes 5 or 6. That's my prediction anyway.


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Poll: Who'll win the Finals?*

Hmmm...interesting commentary...



> Five shots in one game? Ridiculous. Shaq’s a dominant player. He should demand the ball, and shoot all the time. But he didn’t. He just quit on his team, because he’s selfish, and he has ulterior motives on the court, and he doesn’t care anything about winning. He took five shots in an NBA Finals game, and he’s a quitter and a loser.
> 
> Of course, that’s all absurd, and I don’t believe it. But *I don’t think it’s any less fair to say those things about Shaq than it was to say them about Kobe Bryant after Game 7 of the Lakers/Suns series*. I know that Kobe has a certain reputation that Shaq doesn’t, but… I feel like that’s why those things were said about Kobe’s performance at that time–his reputation, as opposed to, you know, anything that took place on the court. Maybe you feel like Kobe made some poor basketball decisions, and that’s fine. But as far as quitting, or anything else…* if it’s fair for Kobe, I think it’s fair for Shaq, too*.


He even acted a wee bit like a punk and didn't address the media afterwards.

http://www.themightymjd.com/2006/06/13/shaq-is-a-quitter/


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## TG2000 (Feb 26, 2006)

Alright this is my first post on the Bulls board, let me start off by saying I've been lurking on this board for a LONG time (Jamal vs. Jay, anyone?), and I consider this board one of the major reasons I've remained a passionate Bulls fan through the lean years while living in New Jersey. I think I've started about 3,000 conversations with my friends and family about the Bulls, and about 6 times the other person actually cared. Now that I'm a college graduate I don't have thesis papers due every week so I've lost my aversion to writing, and plan on being a regular contributor to this board.

Having said that, my first post here isn't even about the Bulls- it's about the Mavs. I haven't heard alot of people talk about their potential to be a truly dominant NBA dynasty. I know dynsasty gets thrown around alot these days (people were calling the Pistons defeat by the Mavs the end of a dynasty which was a joke) but the Mavs are so young and so talented I don't see why they won't win multiple championships. Dirk's improving game (post-up, rebounding, passing defense) combined with his leadership will put him with the all-time greats, IMO.Terry is an explosive scorer, improving playmaker and assasin in the clutch. Josh Howard is a great all-around player who is destined to be an all-star multiple times. Devin Harris might be the quickest player in the game and with the new rules he can blow by any defender in the NBA (with a J he's gonna be unstoppable). Diop might be a 1st team defensive mainstay, and Daniels is a nice young player as well. Their vets (Stack, Damp, KVH) are old but still have a couple years of productivity left in them. Avery Johnson has already proven to be a great coach, and he's done it without the mindgames that can wear thin on players (also he's extremely likeable, which is a rare quality for a great coach). Combine all this with Cuban, who probably will pay an enormous amount of luxury tax every year if it means a chance at a title, and I don't see any reason why this team can't win 4-5 titles.

What do you guys think?


----------



## TG2000 (Feb 26, 2006)

Pistons defeat by the Heat, my bad


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

TG2000 said:


> Having said that, my first post here isn't even about the Bulls- it's about the Mavs. I haven't heard alot of people talk about their potential to be a truly dominant NBA dynasty. I know dynsasty gets thrown around alot these days (people were calling the Pistons defeat by the Mavs the end of a dynasty which was a joke) but the Mavs are so young and so talented I don't see why they won't win multiple championships.


They are winning because they were/are ahead of the curve in adjusting to the new rules changes, and are creating a lot of matchup problems for their opponents.

IMHO, this won't last. Then we'll see what kind of stuff they're made of. Remember...they escaped from San Antonio...they didn't thrash them or anything.


----------



## TG2000 (Feb 26, 2006)

Well there's no denying San Antonio is a great team, but the Mavs are flat out better. That series was the best I've seen Duncan play and the Mavs withstood it and won, with a young and fairly inexperienced team. Next year the Mav's confidence will be much higher after a (probable) championship, and I don't see San Antonio improving much especially with Duncan's age and injury problems. The only other elite team I see improving in 2007 are the Suns, and that's assuming Amare comes back at an all-NBA level, which is a big assumption.


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Shaq, there's a ring at the door.
> 
> Can you get it?
> 
> ...


http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/14804222.htm


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

"Dallas is Chicago on Steriods" -- WOW lol

If Amare was healthy, Dallas wouldn't of beat them. They won't beat them next year when Amare's back, I'll put money on it.


----------



## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

I wish ABC and the league would start these games at 7 central instead of 8 central. Last night, with 8 minutes left in the fourth quarter I fell asleep watching so I missed Wade's comeback. Sounds like it was just Wades' comeback as opposed to the Heat's comeback, too.


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

It's over for Miami. Their best shot only netted them a two point win.


----------



## yodurk (Sep 4, 2002)

GB said:


> It's over for Miami. Their best shot only netted them a two point win.


Yeah, Miami dodged a major bullet BIG TIME. Dallas had them pinned going into the 4th, and they were a Gary Payton jumper AND a Dirk Nowitzki free throw away from losing (neither of which was likely to happen the way it did...Payton's not a good shooter and Dirk is an amazing FT shooter). 

I predicted Dallas in 6 and I think it's still going to happen that way. Miami obviously struggles against them. A 2-point victory was about the best they could muster up.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

narek said:


> I wish ABC and the league would start these games at 7 central instead of 8 central. Last night, with 8 minutes left in the fourth quarter I fell asleep watching so I missed Wade's comeback. Sounds like it was just Wades' comeback as opposed to the Heat's comeback, too.


Yeah, you're just lucky you don't live in the eastern time zone.


----------



## BULLHITTER (Dec 6, 2005)

> If Amare was healthy, Dallas wouldn't of beat them. They won't beat them next year when Amare's back, I'll put money on it.


hope it's not the rent, cause there'll be homelessness looming.

phoenix will never win a championship unless they more readily commit to defense. scoring goes down in the playoffs, that's been a fact since god knows when; the suns style is entertaining, but they wouldn't have beat the spurs this year either. amare coming back is an edge, but they lost with him two years earlier and who knows if the team chemistry or his knee will provide the impetus for them to beat either dallas or SA; and that doesn't speak of the clips or the lakers, who the suns didn't necessarily beat down either.


----------



## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

GB said:


> It's over for Miami. Their best shot only netted them a two point win.


 On the other hand everyone but Dwyane played terribly. 14 missed FTs, 20 turnovers, Dallas going on a run of 10 straight scores in the 3rd and 6 straight in the fourth and we still won despite Howard scoring 21, Dirk doing his thing and Terry doing his thing. We played terribly, but Wade wouldn't let us lose.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> Yeah, you're just lucky you don't live in the eastern time zone.


Do the Pacific and Mountain time zone have such a huge population of basketball fans that their watching makes up for all the people on the eastern and central time zones who don't make it much past half time?


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## jbulls (Aug 31, 2005)

narek said:


> Do the Pacific and Mountain time zone have such a huge population of basketball fans that their watching makes up for all the people on the eastern and central time zones who don't make it much past half time?


It must. You have to figure that the suits at ABC are squeezing every last drop of advertising money out of their programming. The current set up must be the one that gets the most people watching.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

narek said:


> Do the Pacific and Mountain time zone have such a huge population of basketball fans that their watching makes up for all the people on the eastern and central time zones who don't make it much past half time?


It's six of one, half dozen of the other for the networks -- while they're loathe to lose the East/Central viewer to the arms of Morpheus, a Pacific/Mountain viewer might as well be asleep if they're stuck at work or commuting home for a game that tips off at 4:00 local time.

There is nothing better than NFL Sunday in the Pacific time zone, imo. You can watch both early and late games and still have plenty of time to run errands, do something outside, etc.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Wade's going for 50 tonight!


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

*Holy ****! Wade Just Pulled A Skiles!*

Fast break for the Heat, Shaq is is going for the layup, and Stackhouse does the worst foul in the playoffs yet on Shaq, way worse than the Posey one, Shaq is trying to get up to go attack Stackhouse, and Wade just muscles Shaq to the ground.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

sloth, honestly. did that need a separate thread?

no. it did not.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Gut check time for those of us that called the Mavs.

Anyone changing their call? Not me. This is the kind of fire that champions are born in...just look at Wade.

Mavs in 7


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

The problem is that Dallas is trying to get physical, when they aren't a physical team. Wade is just torching them. Miami's going to win this series in 6.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

I think heat in 7.

They'll win the next one and have to take 1 of 2 in Dallas.

It's 2-3-2, if I'm not mistaken.


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

Is it time for us to admit that many of us have really underrated the Bulls this season and playoffs?


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## dogra (Nov 12, 2003)

TwinkieTowers said:


> Is it time for us to admit that many of us have really underrated the Bulls this season and playoffs?


What do the Bulls have to do with any of this?

Please don't say it's because there was a nigh cosmic significance to us winning two home games against the Heat in round one. I don't buy it.

I don't believe that it means anything more than -- "Awesome, we won two home games against the Heat in round one! I thought we might get swept!"

But, some want to say -- "Doesn't it mean we were better than the Nets and the Pistons and -- why not? -- the MAVS too?"

No. 

I do not for a second believe that it does.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

TwinkieTowers said:


> Is it time for us to admit that many of us have really underrated the Bulls this season and playoffs?


If we really came close to besting the Heat in a 7 game series in the playoffs, then with the Cap Space, added lotto pick and another year of maturation for our young players the Bulls should be in the running for the NBA title next season.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> If we really came close to besting the Heat in a 7 game series in the playoffs, then with the Cap Space, added lotto pick and another year of maturation for our young players the Bulls should be in the running for the NBA title next season.


If you aren't contending, then you're rebuilding.

I think having a post presence will make the Bulls one of the better teams in the East...but lets not forget that there will be a couple of teams with a chip on their shoulder.

It will be interesting.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

jerry stackhouse was *suspended* one game for that hard foul on shaq.

per the espn1000 update.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> jerry stackhouse was *suspended* one game for that hard foul on shaq.
> 
> per the espn1000 update.


Thats stupid.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

mizenkay said:


> jerry stackhouse was *suspended* one game for that hard foul on shaq.
> 
> per the espn1000 update.


That is absolutely retarded. Screw the commissioner or whoever sent that suspension down.


----------



## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> If we really came close to besting the Heat in a 7 game series in the playoffs, then with the Cap Space, added lotto pick and another year of maturation for our young players the Bulls should be in the running for the NBA title next season.


Setting up the strawman...


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

At least the leagues consistently suspending people for every little thing. That's better than picking and choosing. Both teams have had their suspension problems. We lost Posey and UD in similarly questionable situations. Apparently Cuban's trying to get Shaq suspended now for raising his hand and bloodying Stack's nose in game one when Stack ran into him or get the suspension overturned.


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Flash is the Future said:


> At least the leagues consistently suspending people for every little thing. That's better than picking and choosing. Both teams have had their suspension problems. We lost Posey and UD in similarly questionable situations. Apparently Cuban's trying to get Shaq suspended now for raising his hand and bloodying Stack's nose in game one when Stack ran into him or get the suspension overturned.


Did that even get called for a foul? Shaq just had his hands up, and it was more Stack's face going into his arm.


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## Flash is the Future (May 12, 2006)

Yeah it was a personal. Go figure. They don't let enough contact go on anymore.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Josh Howard is the biggest ******* in the league. Cost the Mavs any legit chance at winning the game. He choked bigger than Tyson.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I hate the Heat. Especially Shaq, Wade, Walker, JWill, and Payton.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

I'm sorry, but you don't decide a Finals game with foul calls, especially not a phantom call like that.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I know I shouldn't wish this, but I hope Wade, er... Mr. Flop has a short career.

There was a play on the baseline near in the middle of the 4th where he was double covered by Harris and Howard. There MIGHT have been a love tap. You then her a whistle.


----------



## BullSoxChicagosFinest (Oct 22, 2005)

What a ridiculous "foul" call at the end of the game to decide it. 

This is why the NBA has fallen off a little and lost the respect of many people over the country (The Bulls draw, but I am hard pressed with the many people I meet to find someone who even likes the NBA, let alone know anything about the Bulls).


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Dirk pushed Wade on that, its no difference than a jumpshooter getting his elbow tapped on on a shot, it throws everything off. Easy call, its just shocking for some people because we've rarely seen a foul called on Dirk all series for pushing people.


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## BullSoxChicagosFinest (Oct 22, 2005)

Oh man, anyone watching the postgame? Avery Johnson is hilarious, making a reporter look bad though. "Don't stutter".


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

Avery's pulling a Tyrus Thomas during the press conference.

What did you think of the foul call on Wade at the end of overtime?

What did you think of the foul call on Wade?

I don't know, I'm asking you?

No, I'm asking you, what did you think of the foul call on Wade?

I think he got two freethrows out of it.

No, thats the politically correct answer, now I'm asking you again, what did you think of the foul call on Wade?

I really don't know what to say.

Come on, I want to, all the people in this room want to hear your answer. We have people from Israel, all over, GERMANY, what did you think?

I'm done. Can I ask you a follow up question. What, What, What 

Don't Stutter.

What was the deal with the timeout call on Howard, was it suppose to be after the 2nd freethrow?


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

The don't stutter comment was even funnier because Johnson stutters so often.


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## Future (Jul 24, 2002)

That was one of the worst fouls to end a game since Hugh Hollins used to ref. That was absolutely horrible.


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I wish the game was still physicial as it was through the late 80s/early 90s

Basketball is turning into a PU$$Y game


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

Eh, I don't really care about the foul and free throws. I'm more concerned about the extra cash Josh Howard received from Heat supporters to throw the game for them. Two missed free throws that could've extended the lead to three, then a Chris Webber-esque timeout call spells red flag for me.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

theanimal23 said:


> I wish the game was still physicial as it was through the late 80s/early 90s
> 
> Basketball is turning into a PU$$Y game


Is turning into? The turn is already complete.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Please. It was boxing in the 80's...brute strength, not savvy and athleticism won out. It was all wrong.

I'm stunned at this turn. Weak suspension, weak foul to end the game.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

GB said:


> Please. It was boxing in the 80's...brute strength, not savvy and athleticism won out. It was all wrong.


Showtime Lakers was boxing and brute strength? Magic and Larry had no savvy? 

The Bad Boys Pistons, they turned it into boxing, before the flagrant foul was into'd. But now, they've taken in to the whole other extreme. Increased scoring isn't worth anything to the game when it comes in the form of teams going to the line 50 times in a game because in large part due to touch fouls and incidental contact.

I'm glad they got rid of the prison ball tactics that certain teams used, but all the touch fouls and flopping in today's game aren't much better.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

TwinkieTowers said:


> Eh, I don't really care about the foul and free throws. I'm more concerned about the extra cash Josh Howard received from Heat supporters to throw the game for them. Two missed free throws that could've extended the lead to three, then a Chris Webber-esque timeout call spells red flag for me.


Was he throwing the game when he was the one keeping the Mavs in the game because Dirk didn't show up again?


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

I think Josh Howard has got the short end of the stick here 

He appeared to look over at the bench and hesitated and raised his hands and thhen did it a 2nd time 

I think he misinterpreted some instructions from the bench thinking that there was only one time out left and maybe got thrown with the miscommunication thinking that there may been 2 and they wanted to run a sub before the 2nd free throw

Its the only think I can think of because Josh is how dumbarse ..I think it was a poor communication error.

Could end up costing a championship though 

Who is to say Dallas makes that last shot and Miami has to go 2 and 2 in Big D instead of winning 1 game in Dallas ( which I think they can )


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

<img src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/ToTorieOnHer25thBirthday/DWade1.jpg">


----------



## K-Dub (Jun 26, 2005)

TwinkieTowers said:


> Eh, I don't really care about the foul and free throws. I'm more concerned about the extra cash Josh Howard received from Heat supporters to throw the game for them. Two missed free throws that could've extended the lead to three, then a Chris Webber-esque timeout call spells red flag for me.


I actually feel sorry for the guy. He looked legitimately sad after he did it. That's a first for me. And did anyone catch J-Will high fiving the camera going into a timeout? :rofl:


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## SausageKingofChicago (Feb 14, 2005)

And I've said it before and I'll say it again ....Dwayne Wade is the closest thing to MJ since MJ

Eerily similar player


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## K-Dub (Jun 26, 2005)

sloth said:


> <img src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/ToTorieOnHer25thBirthday/DWade1.jpg">


Look at Wade's face. Looks like he ripped that straight out of Beast Wars.


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

sloth said:


> <img src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/ToTorieOnHer25thBirthday/DWade1.jpg">


That's a bad angle though. From another angle, it appears that Harris isn't touching him.


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## TwinkieTowers (Jul 16, 2002)

sloth said:


> Was he throwing the game when he was the one keeping the Mavs in the game because Dirk didn't show up again?


Dirk had a big game-tying make in the fourth and a game-leading make near the end of OT.

Who the heck is giving Josh Howard the responsibility of calling timeouts? Is he really a captain of the Mavericks to be the one calling timeouts? I'm telling all of you, Howard threw that game. His aggressive offensive play at the beginning of the game sure was a great way for him to cover up his scandal, so it would like he was actually messing up accidentally. I'm guessing Mark Cuban and Avery Johnson are thinking of breaking his legs again.


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

<a href="http://basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3680508#post3680508">The official game of the cycle machine!</a>


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

rwj333 said:


> That's a bad angle though. From another angle, it appears that Harris isn't touching him.


Thats obviously what threw the shot off though.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Hell of a performance by Wade.

As per usual in the NBA, the team that attacks the basket more and has the athleticism to attack it hard and above the rim if needed gets to the line more. 

Sure wish Wade was a Bull. Then the opponents would whine and complain about foul calls when we win, like during the days of MJ.


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## narek (Jul 29, 2005)

TwinkieTowers said:


> Dirk had a big game-tying make in the fourth and a game-leading make near the end of OT.
> 
> Who the heck is giving Josh Howard the responsibility of calling timeouts? Is he really a captain of the Mavericks to be the one calling timeouts? I'm telling all of you, Howard threw that game. His aggressive offensive play at the beginning of the game sure was a great way for him to cover up his scandal, so it would like he was actually messing up accidentally. I'm guessing Mark Cuban and Avery Johnson are thinking of breaking his legs again.


The blame goes to the Mavs coaching staff - Avery made a time out sign from the bench trying to tell them to call a timeout after the shot - Howard (and Harris) were watching Avery. Avery should have called Howard or Harris over to talk and not use hand signals. 

But that's not what lost them the game - they played one game for nearly 3 quarters, and then switched tactics.


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

narek said:


> But that's not what lost them the game - they played one game for nearly 3 quarters, and then switched tactics.


This is a great observation, narek. I think the Heat did turn up the D a notch in the fourth, and they put more pressure on Dallas by executing their OWN offense a lot better, but it seemed like Dallas simply stopped running the plays that had been basically unstoppable in the first three quarters.

I hate to see Finals games decided by free throws, too, but I'd hate it worse if the refs had decided to swallow the whistle in that spot. Wade was pretty clearly fouled -- much more so than the foul that sent Josh Howard to the line for his two misses. Kudos to him for not settling and kudos to the refs for making the correct call in a tough spot.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

In the nba, if you swipe down at the ball in front of a player, it's a foul, even if there's no contact.

If you swing up at the ball, it's no foul.

Regardless of whether there was contact, it was a foul and a great call by the refs.

Dallas took the Heat to OT on their home court. It should translate into easier games for the Mavs in Dallas.

The heat have to win just one of two.

If Dallas wins game 6, game 7 is going to be a great game to see.


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## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

sloth said:


> <img src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y260/ToTorieOnHer25thBirthday/DWade1.jpg">



Thats a good picture. I might have to retract my stance on that call, though I just saw the replay again and it still looks like Harri didn't actually make contact with that swipe, and that the man whom the foul was called on definitely didn't foul.


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## K-Dub (Jun 26, 2005)

I think we should invest in those Hasselhoff-on-a-stick things for when Dallas comes to town. They seem to work incredibly well. :biggrin:


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

I never understood this in general. 

How is it a foul when the guy on offense jumps/bumps into the defender? And, if the defender just has his hands up, and the offensive player runs into them, how is it a foul? The latter question happens a lot to Tyson.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

theanimal23 said:


> I never understood this in general.
> 
> How is it a foul when the guy on offense jumps/bumps into the defender? And, if the defender just has his hands up, and the offensive player runs into them, how is it a foul? The latter question happens a lot to Tyson.


Your talking about the play where Dirk headbutted Haslem? Shouldn't have been a foul.


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## anorexorcist (Aug 3, 2005)

Play (non-play) of the game:

Early in the 2nd quarter, when one of the refs went flying into the stands, as he was getting back up, Dwayne Wade RAN from halfcourt to the ref's aid, as if he had to see how he was doing. What genuine concern for the ref's well-being, I'm sure. :raised_ey


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## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

theanimal23 said:


> I never understood this in general.
> 
> How is it a foul when the guy on offense jumps/bumps into the defender? And, if the defender just has his hands up, and the offensive player runs into them, how is it a foul? The latter question happens a lot to Tyson.


I know I've been on a rant against Wade, but I my comments here are about any player. I just think its a dumb thing to call a foul on the defense when the offense initiates all the contact. Let them play or call a foul on the offense. I just feel w/this situation, it's never called the same for both teams.


----------



## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

Man, I'd love to trade 16 + fillers to get Marquis Daniels.


----------



## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

theanimal23 said:


> Man, I'd love to trade 16 + fillers to get Marquis Daniels.


Not if he's got to guard Wade.


----------



## theanimal23 (Mar 2, 2005)

What a block by Stack


----------



## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

Nowitski called for hitting Wade's fist with his stomach. Officials can't help themselves.


----------



## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

To paraphrase the announcers, 
"this has been a terrific team effort of the Miami team and their three officials throughout the playoffs"...


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

McBulls said:


> Nowitski called for hitting Wade's fist with his stomach. Officials can't help themselves.


Even if they didn't call it, he would of scored. There was one guy in between Wade and the basket after Nowitzki, and he probaly would have gotten the and 1.


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

And your champion, Miami Heat.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

45 picked Dallas, 21 the Heat.

Caw. Caw.


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

No crow for me tonight!


----------



## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

CONGRADULATIONS TO BABY JORDAN!!! 

I hate Gary Payton, Jay Will and almost everyone else on the Heat. Thank God for Dwayne Wades classiness, he deserves an NBA title!! Take that MR Lebron James. 

Dwayne Wade made Chicago proud tonite. 

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: 

True Role Model and Class Act.


----------



## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

Well, the Bulls lost to the eventual champions but I'm not sure what that means, if anything. 

This showed me that Riley knows what he's doing. They would have never won with SVG.


----------



## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

also I'd have to say I'm glad that Zo and Payton have their championship. Now they can go away.


----------



## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

wade mvp. completely deserved. he was phenomenal. 

congrats to the heat. 

(fixin' to eat some crow)


----------



## DaFuture (Nov 5, 2002)

nba officiating is a joke.


----------



## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

Shaq just flat out says : Riley is the best coach I've ever had. 

Pjax : *ouch*


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

spongyfungy said:


> Well, the Bulls lost to the eventual champions but I'm not sure what that means, if anything.
> 
> This showed me that Riley knows what he's doing. They would have never won with SVG.


I completely agree. Even though this cements the fact that Wade is probably one of the three or four best players in the league, I don't think they win this particular ring this year without Riley. I hate the style he's chosen to play since leaving Los Angeles, but the guy is a freaking master motivator.


----------



## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

All BS calls and foul drawing theatrics aside, Wade is the best player in the league with the style of play the league favors right now. Big up to Dwyane. Chi Town stand up.


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

spongyfungy said:


> also I'd have to say I'm glad that Zo and Payton have their championship. Now they can go away.


I agree re Payton. Zo can play as long as he wants.


----------



## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

LOL, Shaq took the MVP trophy before Wade got his hands on it.


----------



## SALO (Jun 6, 2002)

I was wrong. I expected Dirk to blow up this series. 

Wade is just too much. 

Congrats to Miami. I thought they were done after losing those first two games.


----------



## Babble-On (Sep 28, 2005)

sloth said:


> LOL, Shaq took the MVP trophy before Wade got his hands on it.



I think it was sort of a torch passing gesture. Which was unnecessary considering how thoroughly the team was carried by Wade.

If Wade knocks down his jumpers like has been recently, then along with the way the game is being called, he just cannot be stopped. Its gonna be rough going against him as long as he has a decent squad around him.


----------



## McBulls (Apr 28, 2005)

I predicted a Miami win, and I think they're the better team, but I don't like the way they won -- getting one bad call after another from the referees and living on the line. 

I agree that the outcome makes the Bulls look very good. Imagine what another year of age on Payton, O'Neal and Zo compared to another year of age plus some new bigs for the Bulls will do...

Next year, the Bulls will be better team than Miami. Even their three striped-uniformed collaborators may not be enough to stop us from beating them if we meet again.


----------



## The ROY (Nov 11, 2004)

Someway, somehow

Bargnani's stock just went down a bit

LOL


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

McBulls said:


> Next year, the Bulls will be better team than Miami.


Dwyane Wade is 24 years old, Mickey Arison has no problem taking on salary, and Miami will lure plenty of quality pieces just with their annual MLE.

I don't like our odds. And then you factor in LeBron . . .


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

It's a superstar's league, and we just saw why. 

The NBA is doing it's best to get the superstars in the finals, and that's terrible news for the Bulls. LeBron or Wade are going to be in the finals every year from here on out. If the Rockets can stay healthy, I wouldn't be surprised to see them in the finals next year. Yao and McGrady? That's superstar power right there.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

spongyfungy said:


> Well, the Bulls lost to the eventual champions but I'm not sure what that means, if anything.
> 
> This showed me that Riley knows what he's doing. They would have never won with SVG.


Well....

We beat the heat 2 times in the playoffs, so did Dallas. Therefore, we're as good as Dallas. No, better.


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Wow. I went out tonight and didn't bother to check tape or check up on the game; I was that sure this was going to seven.

I'll give credit where credit is due...I said Miami would have to sweep their home series to win the series...and they did it.


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

The ROY said:


> Someway, somehow
> 
> Bargnani's stock just went down a bit
> 
> LOL


And Gay's and Roy's Skyrocketed.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Maybe we should poll if 'Toine sucks, too.


----------



## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

Congrats to the Heat, a group of talented, some slightly dysfunctional individuals, lead by superstars.

Antonie Walker. NBA Champion. Solid performances on the biggest stage.
White Chocolate. NBA Champion. Solid player. 
Gary Payton. NBA Champion. Huge shots to win key games.
Zo Mourning. NBA Champion. Bailed on his old team for his shot at glory.

These “selfish” players really rose to the occasion when it matters, during key NBA games (not sure about practice floor burns though), as good professionals do, performing their roles well.


SHAQ being the main 1-2 guy on 3 teams that made it to the finals is an impressive feat. Lots of players can play well within a system. SHAQ simply =s winning the NBA. Talent.



The best team is the NBA champion.

Man, I wish we had Wade.


----------



## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It's a superstar's league, and we just saw why.
> 
> The NBA is doing it's best to get the superstars in the finals, and that's terrible news for the Bulls. LeBron or Wade are going to be in the finals every year from here on out. If the Rockets can stay healthy, I wouldn't be surprised to see them in the finals next year. Yao and McGrady? That's superstar power right there.


Yao sucks. He's just big and clumbsy as hell, and the only thing in his favor is that he is big. Every time I see him he's stumbling and falling down like crazy...he can't get out of his own way. Granted every time I've seen him play it was against Shaq or another good athletic center, but he has looked absolutely horrible every single time I've seen him.

Edit here: Thought I should add once again that we'd have a big stud SG in McGrady if not for Jordan threatening retirement during the draft. There was a deal in place to trade Scottie for the pick that they'd have taken McGrady with, and Jordan veto'd that, then retired after that year. What would've been better, one more year with Jordan, or McGrady for the last 7 or w/e? I'd take McGrady for 7 probably, but it'd be hard to give up a championship too.


----------



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Yao sucks. He's just big and clumbsy as hell, and the only thing in his favor is that he is big. Every time I see him he's stumbling and falling down like crazy...he can't get out of his own way. Granted every time I've seen him play it was against Shaq or another good athletic center, but he has looked absolutely horrible every single time I've seen him.


Yao has had huge games against Shaq, and this was when Shaq was in LA and a lot better. Yao has destroyed every good post defender in the league atleast once. He is just too tall and has too much touch, and some good moves. 

Not to mention, he is the most popular player in the league strictly talking numbers. It may be because he is chinese and all the chinese folks love him, but that's still legit. If he was in the finals, that would mean ratings would be that much higher, because all those chinese folks would be tuning in.


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## DaBabyBullz (May 26, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Yao has had huge games against Shaq, and this was when Shaq was in LA and a lot better. Yao has destroyed every good post defender in the league atleast once. He is just too tall and has too much touch, and some good moves.
> 
> Not to mention, he is the most popular player in the league strictly talking numbers. It may be because he is chinese and all the chinese folks love him, but that's still legit. If he was in the finals, that would mean ratings would be that much higher, because all those chinese folks would be tuning in.


Well, I must've ALWAYS caught him on bad nights then, cause I wouldn't even want him on my team, and I'm dead serious. As for him being popular with the Chinese, good for him and or them...couldn't care less what they think lol. I'd say that a billion people from China would make anyone popular, and a bunch of Chinese cheering for a Chinese guy doesn't mean crap about him being good, just that they cheer for their own, as do a lot of people. Same with Dirk and the Germans, irrelevant to me if he's popular and if he got ratings or not. I have just seen Yao fall really clumsily on his knees too many times.


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## OziBull (Nov 7, 2004)

Well Done to the Miami Heat, i got to tell ya i was thinking a Dallas win in six before the series so hats off to them.
DWade is a superstar, wish he was here!


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## rwj333 (Aug 10, 2002)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Well, I must've ALWAYS caught him on bad nights then, cause I wouldn't even want him on my team, and I'm dead serious. As for him being popular with the Chinese, good for him and or them...couldn't care less what they think lol. I'd say that a billion people from China would make anyone popular, and a bunch of Chinese cheering for a Chinese guy doesn't mean crap about him being good, just that they cheer for their own, as do a lot of people. Same with Dirk and the Germans, irrelevant to me if he's popular and if he got ratings or not. I have just seen Yao fall really clumsily on his knees too many times.


Check out his stats before he got injured this year. He had a memorable run of double-doubles and huge scoring nights with little help. A year before I might have agreed with you.


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## Banjoriddim (Aug 14, 2004)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Yao sucks. He's just big and clumbsy as hell, and the only thing in his favor is that he is big. Every time I see him he's stumbling and falling down like crazy...he can't get out of his own way. Granted every time I've seen him play it was against Shaq or another good athletic center, but he has looked absolutely horrible every single time I've seen him.
> 
> Edit here: Thought I should add once again that we'd have a big stud SG in McGrady if not for Jordan threatening retirement during the draft. There was a deal in place to trade Scottie for the pick that they'd have taken McGrady with, and Jordan veto'd that, then retired after that year. What would've been better, one more year with Jordan, or McGrady for the last 7 or w/e? I'd take McGrady for 7 probably, but it'd be hard to give up a championship too.


Pleas buy a tv and stop modelling your opinion after 12 year old wannabe posters... I'd personally add my opinion that he actually plays much better against big athleic (or not that) centers than against some sick double team a la PHX(Diaw and co) he has had good games against Shaq from start and at the moment he clearly is no 1 center in league.


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## Banjoriddim (Aug 14, 2004)

DaBabyBullz said:


> Well, I must've ALWAYS caught him on bad nights then, cause I wouldn't even want him on my team, and I'm dead serious. As for him being popular with the Chinese, good for him and or them...couldn't care less what they think lol. I'd say that a billion people from China would make anyone popular, and a bunch of Chinese cheering for a Chinese guy doesn't mean crap about him being good, just that they cheer for their own, as do a lot of people. Same with Dirk and the Germans, irrelevant to me if he's popular and if he got ratings or not. I have just seen Yao fall really clumsily on his knees too many times.


You say no to only 20/10 center (more like 25/12) and claim he is clumsy? are you serious? he is as skilled as big man can be. for ex. he has faked Shareef in fastbreak with behind a back dribbel while running fast break... he has made stuff that some of best pf's can't even dream of... he is dunking machine he is most dominant center. he may be bit slow and his stammina is issue but claiming you won't take player since he has wrong skin colour or in this case seems slow is plain wrong. Also Dirk is by far more popular in USA than in Germany (they allmost don't watch b-ball). Also I don't like your half rassistic comment on people who live in China.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2006/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&id=2493711




> They said, "We don't care about shots." Of course not, we laughed quietly to ourselves. Until the games start.
> They said, "We're not worried about minutes." Sure, we snickered and chortled. In scrimmages, maybe.
> They told us, "We're just here to win a title," and our eyes rolled in unison. That's what they all say.
> They told us they'd stay the course if the season got off to a rocky start, and then the laughter really kicked up a notch.
> But in the end we were the suckers.





> I was at Miami's media day in October, when a group of disbelieving writers attempted to discern how all these new players planned to share one basketball, and I was as cynical as any of them. Antoine Walker, James Posey, Jason Williams and Gary Payton had all been starters the previous season. Each was accustomed to getting his 40 minutes a night and being an integral part of his team's offense.
> Antoine Walker told me on media day, "I understood that I'd be getting fewer touches and fewer minutes when I came here."
> But we still doubted, because we weren't sure he understood how much fewer those numbers would be. Sure enough he didn't complain -- as many of us thought he might -- when both those predictions came true. While Walker was on the bench for the final minutes tonight -- as he was for most playoff games -- he nonetheless celebrated as enthusiastically as anyone when his backup, Posey, hit two huge shots down the stretch.





> Sure enough, there was Zo again, whooping it up in the winning locker room. "15 Strong," he chanted, repeating the Heat's mantra for much of the postseason.
> There was Walker, enduring a rough shooting night but grabbing 11 rebounds and taking a few turns in Miami's tag-team defense on Dirk Nowitzki.
> There was Payton, scoring 16 points the entire series but making two of the biggest shots of Miami's season.
> There was Posey, quietly deferring to Wade and Shaq before hitting two huge buckets in the final minutes of Game 6.
> ...


Great job by the Heat by taking all these disparate, strong willed talents and getting them to work together. Strong organization. They took a risk, and it payed off with an O’Brien trophy.


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## TripleDouble (Jul 26, 2002)

It has got to have been a down year if the team I saw beat the Bulls in the first round is the best in the league. They were just not that good.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

The Yao-bashing is hilarious. He definitely made The Jump this year, and if he can continue to get the occasional break from the Chinese national team, he is going to be an absolute force in the NBA. It's just gravy that he's such a great guy and interesting person.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

We could use a powerforward like Antoine Walker. He can shoot from the inside, and drive inside. He rebounds and plays good defense.

Although I don't think Riley will trade him.

Next year, Walker might be getting 20 ppg again, being Wade's 2nd option.


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## bbertha37 (Jul 21, 2004)

kukoc4ever said:


> These “selfish” players really rose to the occasion when it matters, during key NBA games (not sure about practice floor burns though), as good professionals do, performing their roles well.





kukoc4ever said:


> Great job by the Heat by taking all these disparate, strong willed talents and getting them to work together. Strong organization. They took a risk, and it payed off with an O’Brien trophy.


They also had a rock solid foundation of two superstars - Shaq and Wade. And as we've discussed in the past, these "disparate, strong willed talents" often tend to fall into place when they have the opportunity to play with superstars. I know what you're trying to do here, but there is absolutely no connection with the Bulls' current team makeup. Nice try.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

bbertha37 said:


> They also had a rock solid foundation of two superstars - Shaq and Wade. And as we've discussed in the past, these "disparate, strong willed talents" often tend to fall into place when they have the opportunity to play with superstars. I know what you're trying to do here, but there is absolutely no connection with the Bulls' current team makeup. Nice try.


Four superstars, at least. Walker and Payton certainly are in that category. You can't have five superstars on a team and have all five put up superstar numbers - those who sacrifice stats for the good of the team surely make the team a lot better.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

kukoc4ever said:


> Great job by the Heat by taking all these disparate, strong willed talents and getting them to work together. Strong organization. They took a risk, and it payed off with an O’Brien trophy.



wade said last night during the postgame (interview with stephen A. on sportscenter) that at the beginning of the season the heat _were out of control_ with all the egos and that "they needed a guy with a bigger ego than anyone (riley) to set it all straight". once he took over on the bench, that's when they came up with their slogan "15 strong" and the ship was righted. 

i thought this was telling. so the comments early in the season about egos running amok was true.


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

mizenkay said:


> i thought this was telling. so the comments early in the season about egos running amok was true.


I'm sure they were. It was quite a risk, IMO. So many of those guys have been written off for being cancers or selfish.

Its not like the Heat were a lousy team last year, they almost made the finals. 

But, that was not enough for Riley. He only wants championships. That's why he's in the business.

So they took a risk.... swung for the fences.... could have struck out.... but just being good wasn't good enough... they wanted to be great. And now they are the champions.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> But, that was not enough for Riley. He only wants championships. That's why he's in the business.


With the possible exception of PJax, I think Riley is the only guy in the league who was capable of getting all those guys (who, with the exeption of Shaq, all were guys who almost made it, but didn't for their careers) and getting them all on the same page.


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## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

TomBoerwinkle#1 said:


> With the possible exception of PJax, I think Riley is the only guy in the league who was capable of getting all those guys (who, with the exeption of Shaq, all were guys who almost made it, but didn't for their careers) and getting them all on the same page.


I don't think PJax could have done this. Major, major, major props to Riley for this title. He really laid himself on the line, but throwing Van Gundy under the bus was absolutely the right thing to do.

If Riley manages to integrate some new blood (Simien, Wright, draft picks, FAs) into the team, successfully transition Shaq into his twilight years, and get the most out of Wade as he enters his prime in a couple years (scary), I will again accept the argument that he is the greatest coach of all time.


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## TomBoerwinkle#1 (Jul 31, 2002)

ScottMay said:


> I don't think PJax could have done this. Major, major, major props to Riley for this title. He really laid himself on the line, but throwing Van Gundy under the bus was absolutely the right thing to do.


I doubt Phil could have pulled it off either. I just put his name out there as the only other guy in the league who has the reputation, respect and ability to even have a shot at all those guys buying into what needed to be done.

I 100% agree -- major, major props to Riley.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

kukoc4ever said:


> Great job by the Heat by taking all these disparate, strong willed talents and getting them to work together. Strong organization. They took a risk, and it payed off with an O’Brien trophy.


Funny the way these things work. The Heat were in the right place at the right time to get Shaq. How many of him are there? Great work at nabbing the next big superstar at #5. How many teams can get that mixture? 1, maybe 2 of 30.

After that, getting the pieces to surround them were relatively easy. It's like having MJ already and then getting Pippen in the draft.

Will Perdue, Bill Cartwright...Ho Grant, Dennis Rodman...Paxson, Ron Harper...etc...the pieces are there for the taking.

Things seem to fall in the line. You need the *two*, and you need a *coach*. 

Superstars being born and winning the ring. The NBA is right again. 

Great job by the Heat.


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## BG7 (Jun 25, 2003)

http://a1135.g.akamai.net/f/1135/18...A/KLAC-AM/Miami Championship Parody Short.mp3


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## kukoc4ever (Nov 20, 2002)

GB said:


> =How many of him are there? Great work at nabbing the next big superstar at #5. How many teams can get that?



Depends on how willing you are to give up Donyell Marhshall two months before you ended up giving him up anyway.


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

I'm just going to go back to the superstars thing and the NBA wanting them in the finals thing for a second.

Shouldn't it help us that we're a Chicago team? One of the 3 big cities? That'd be just as good as having a superstar right?


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