# When When Jamal Play at LeBrons Level?



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*When Will Jamal Play at LeBrons Level?*

I'm really anxious for our team to take off.

Apparently a lot of people believe Jamal is a "special player" -- so I'm wondering when he's actually going to help us make a difference in our win/loss record and make the players around him better by taking the load off of them and by inspiring them with his play and mental toughness.

I'm assuming that this effect, when it arrives, will be like the effect LeBron has had in Cleveland---upon the city and upon the team -- and that we'll begin to see tangible proof a great team developing.


What's the expected E.T.A?

Thanks.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> I'm really anxious for our team to take off.
> 
> Apparently a lot of people believe Jamal is a "special player" -- so I'm wondering when he's actually going to help us make a difference in our win/loss record and make the players around him better by taking the load off of them and by inspiring them with his play and mental toughness.
> ...


Please, let's not get it twisted...

If Lebron didn't have Boozer, Z, and the other solid vets they have acquired through trades, the Cavs would be looking up at us from even lower in the cellar, and Lebron would be a great talent on a sorry team.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: When When Jamal Play at LeBrons Level?*



> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Please, let's not get it twisted...
> ...


So LeBron isn't responsible for that teams sucess?


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> I'm really anxious for our team to take off.
> 
> Apparently a lot of people believe Jamal is a "special player" -- so I'm wondering when he's actually going to help us make a difference in our win/loss record and make the players around him better by taking the load off of them and by inspiring them with his play and mental toughness.
> ...


Who makes these declarations .I dont see anyone touting Jamal as a "franchise player " just a player who has the abilities to be a all star and very good player for years to come .

This team wasnt built around jamal he just seems to take most of the blame for winning or losing which I find strange.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: When When Jamal Play at LeBrons Level?*



> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> he just seems to take most of the blame for winning or losing which I find strange.


Wasn't Rose traded so he could take over the scoring load--_during a time when Eddy wasn't performing well_.

He scores, we lose, no-one around him is made better by his play on the court.

1 of 3...hmmm...


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Other than trying to pick a fight with whomever thinks Jamal=LeBron (no one), I don't see any point to this thread.

Jamal is obviously not to LeBron and for that matter the rest of our team is not very close to the rest of the Cavs' team.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

GB is making up for lost time. :|


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> GB is making up for lost time. :|


If you don't like him, there's always the Ignore feature you can use, which is much preferable to you publically commenting on him.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> Other than trying to pick a fight with whomever thinks Jamal=LeBron (no one),


Few people are.

But if he's a great special player, why is it that our _team_ isn't making great special moves.

A win tonight and they're in a playoff spot.

Carmelos team is competing in the tough west.

The Jamal (crew) here seems to believe by the things they say about keeping him that he's on that level or that valuable.

Where's the proof?


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> If you don't like him, there's always the Ignore feature you can use, which is much preferable to you publically commenting on him.


sorry. i actually get a kick out of GB. will refrain from those kind of comments in the future.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: When When Jamal Play at LeBrons Level?*



> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Wasn't Rose traded so he could take over the scoring load--_during a time when Eddy wasn't performing well_.
> ...


Rose was traded because he stunk 

Pax didnt expect Crawford to have to average 30 a game to give us a chance to win.He thought the same thing most Bulls fans thought .That Curry would dominate and Crawford could play off him just as they did at the end of last year .

What he didnt expect was that Curry would be the michelin man and tyson would be a camby clone.

As for his ability to make others better he has it but does he have the ability to bring it everynight is a question .

On nights when Jamal is going full throttle the entire team plays more inspired ball and I think its because they are not stupid the players know who needs to have it going for them to have a chance to win and thats Jamal.

They seem to feed off his energy so the thing is to get him to a conditioning point where he has the stamina and strength to take the defensive asignment and provide the spark on offense.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>mizenkay</b>!
> 
> 
> sorry.


Don't let the mods punk you. They're really teddy bears.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: When When Jamal Play at LeBrons Level?*



> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> On nights when Jamal is going full throttle the entire team plays more inspired ball and I think its because they are not stupid the players know who needs to have it going for them to have a chance to win and thats Jamal.
> 
> They seem to feed off his energy so the thing is to get him to a conditioning point where he has the stamina and strength to take the defensive asignment and provide the spark on offense.


Again the question I posed in the beginning of the thread:

When the does the teams record and the city begin to feel the effects of Jamals individual "greatness"?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: When When Jamal Play at LeBrons Level?*



> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Again the question I posed in the beginning of the thread:
> ...


Ummm, when he has a real team around him would be my best guess. Why is this laid at Jamal's feet? Why not ask the same question about Curry or Chandler, or even Hinrich for that matter? Just seems like more dislike towards Crawford being expressed a different way to me.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: When When Jamal Play at LeBrons Level?*



> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Again the question I posed in the beginning of the thread:
> ...


The point is this is not Jamals teams hes just a cog in the wheel ,hes a robin to a batman forced to play batman until Batman shows up.

We placed all our eggs in the baskets of Tyson and Eddy and the fact that you keep harping on "when will Jamal save us and if he doenst it means hes not a franchise player " type of comments is just silly because no one is making those claims but you .


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: When When Jamal Play at LeBrons Level?*



> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> The point is this is not Jamals teams hes just a cog in the wheel ,hes a robin to a batman forced to play batman until Batman shows up.


Oh...

Things have changed (calling to mind old threads)

Interesting.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Jamal will never be as good as Lebron James. Even if Lebron breaks both ankles and goes Grant Hill.

Lebron already looks like he's on the fasttrack to being the greatest ever. So it's no slight to Jamal that he isn't that kind of player.

Lebron is better physically, mentally...more skilled on the whole....

But he still needed competant teammates. Of which JC has few. Which only exacerbates the gap between the two of them.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Lebron already looks like he's on the fasttrack to being the greatest ever.


Lets wait a couple of seasons on that one. 

Is he better than Kobe and TMac?



> Lebron is better physically, mentally...more skilled on the whole....
> 
> But he still needed competant teammates. Of which JC has few. Which only exacerbates the gap between the two of them.


Not a bad post...

Controversial, but not bad.


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## Snuffleupagus (May 8, 2003)

I don't even think Jamal is a piece of the puzzle.

Sure, he's a fun player to watch. He's silky smooth shooting, handling, and passing. He maybe even looks like a star. But I guess since I don't actually watch many Bulls games (I'm in Virginia), all I see are his numbers in the box score. That's when I want to trade him.

I know he has good games but he has just as many terrible games. He loses games for us. He's also simply too small to defend the 2. Sorry, he is.

I know statistics don't tell the whole story, but they tell more about your worth as a player than behind the back passes, self-alley-opps, and passing lane steals. Jamal shoots 39% from the field, and is 108-349 from 3 point range for a pitiful 31%. Those are Antoine Walker numb...no wait, they're worse than Antoine Walker numbers, when he was gunning 3's at a similar rate in Boston, he never shot as low as 31%. But I bet a lot of Bulls fans would rather have Crawford over Walker.

I think Jamal Crawford can, and will be an excellent point guard in this league. But Hinrich is a far better player at this point and I think he always will be. Let's move him to a team that will play him at the 1 and get a bigger shooting guard.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Nice 93rd post.

Stick around for another 93...


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## Snuffleupagus (May 8, 2003)

Just call me the J.D. Salinger of basketball message boards.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Snuffleupagus</b>!
> Just call me the J.D. Salinger of basketball message boards.


yeah, great analysis, you keep your nose in those stat sheets, I'm gonna keep watching the games. It seems a better way of evaluating young talent for some strange reason


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Snuffleupagus</b>!
> Jamal shoots 39% from the field, and is 108-349 from 3 point range for a pitiful 31%. Those are Antoine Walker numb...no wait, they're worse than Antoine Walker numbers, when he was gunning 3's at a similar rate in Boston, he never shot as low as 31%. But I bet a lot of Bulls fans would rather have Crawford over Walker.


'toine is shooting 27% for the mavs. 32% as a celt this year isn't a ton better either. substitute jamal with walker this season and i don't see much of a difference in record - i don't think walker could carry this team to the playoffs either.

this is getting silly really, fans of hinrich, curry and chandler should be glad crawford is a bull. take jamal off this team and the people would have to start putting responsibility on the rest of the team. now that's just crazy talk.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

i meant 32% last year ^_^


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> yeah, great analysis, you keep your nose in those stat sheets, I'm gonna keep watching the games. It seems a better way of evaluating young talent for some strange reason


Better than the standings?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RoRo</b>!
> . substitute jamal with walker this season and


...the Mavs would be a lot worse off.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Snuffleupagus</b>!
> I don't even think Jamal is a piece of the puzzle.
> 
> Sure, he's a fun player to watch. He's silky smooth shooting, handling, and passing. He maybe even looks like a star. But I guess since I don't actually watch many Bulls games (I'm in Virginia), all I see are his numbers in the box score. That's when I want to trade him.
> ...


Amen - very good read Snuffleupagus!

I'd add that Jamals numbers even lie to the better side (he's a 17 p scorer) but he's probably doing more damage then good!
Bad D,Bad shotselection,bad court decisions,bad work ethic,no leadership(well,none expected).

a contract starting at 5 mil - maybe he's worth it.I agree,not a piece of the puzzle,at least not mine.

I'd like to have him as a 6th man coming of the bench for like 25 minutes to replace both gaurds(that we don't have,just Kirk) for some instant offense maybe.
otherwise,i'd love a S&T for a less talented but more consistent on offense,and a guy to play some D on SGs of the league.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bullet</b>!
> 
> 
> Amen - very good read Snuffleupagus!
> ...


WHO ELSE IS THERE TO SHOOT ? 

BAD COURT DECISIONS ? everyone on our teams makes bad decisions thats why we only have 17 wins 


WORK ETHIC ? any proof of this of are you just makingit up as you go along .

Leadership ??? jamal has been displaying oustanding leadership despite being on the short end of the stick ina lot of ways 

It seems to me that some of you are living in a fantasy world and cant distinguish reality from the Gb proganda machine :laugh:


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

the orginal title to this thread was When will Jamal play at Lebrons level. Thats the easiest question I have seen all day. Never


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> It seems to me that some of you are living in a fantasy world


Same one where jamal = wade, right?


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Same one where jamal = wade, right?


Right now Jamal is better than Wade that doesnt mean wade wont pass him just means that as of this moment Crawford is the better player.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Id have to go with Wade over Jamal here. I hate doing that but Wade has been a better all around player then Jamal. Plus his team is actually playing for something. That isnt Jamals fault, but when everything is held equal, always pick the guy on the better team


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Better than the standings?


This is a TEAM game. You conveniently want to forget that and lay all the blame on one young player.


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## Snuffleupagus (May 8, 2003)

My point was that Jamal shoots a ****load of 3's at a low rate. Walker's shooting a lower percentage this year, but he's taken many fewer as well, so at least he realizes that its not a reliable shot.

It's not so much that I think Jamal Crawford is the problem with this team or anything, its more that he'd be worth more somewhere else. His 18 ppg is nothing to sniff at, and I know that while his shooting loses games for us, sometimes it wins them for us too. And I also know he takes a lot of bad shots as the shot clock is winding down, which isn't necessarily his fault.

Jamal Crawford makes the Bulls better, but they won't win a championship with him at the 2, that's my thesis. There is a discrepancy between how he wants to play (take and make a lot of 3's, run the point, get noticed as a star) and how the Bulls need him to play (take the open shot, break down the D with his handles, play within the system).

One more thing. In the improbable event that Jamal were to gain 25 pounds this offseason, I'd say keep him. If he were built like Kendall Gill, I'd think he would be fine defending the 2. Some might protest that he'd lose quickness. I'd say he has an excess of quickness at shooting guard, he gets incredible separation when crossing people up. So while gaining weight might slow him down a little, he'd still be quick enough.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Id have to go with Wade over Jamal here. I hate doing that but Wade has been a better all around player then Jamal. Plus his team is actually playing for something. That isnt Jamals fault, but when everything is held equal, always pick the guy on the better team


We're still agreeing on most things.

Who would have thought it?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> This is a TEAM game. You conveniently want to forget that and lay all the blame on one young player.


Does he make his teammates better?

(I think Skiles thinks there are other players on the team who do a better job than that...)


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Does he make his teammates better?
> ...


When he plays the point he undoubtedly does. Jamal is the best guy on the team for feeding Curry down low and getting him involved. At Sg, his job isn't really to MAKE players better around him, it is to score and try to win ball games along with the rest of the team. I think you hold Jamal to an unrealistic standard.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> Right now Jamal is better than Wade that doesnt mean wade wont pass him just means that as of this moment Crawford is the better player.


I think thats an insult for Wade - Wade is so much better as a rookie then JC will ever be,Wade is gonna be a superstar,while Jamal at his best will not be considered a star - out of the one on one league.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

If you place jamal on the heat with Odom on one wing and EJ on the other wing and Butler in the corner .His shooting percentages and overall game play would be even better than they are now .

Wade has a cushion of playing on a team where if he doesnt have a huge offensive night someone else will so the pressure is not there like it is on Jamal in chicago.

You place wade on the Bulls with his inability to shoot and limited offensive options and opposing coaches would shut his entire game down.

Reverse the situations and you would see different stats for both players .


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## robert60446 (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> Right now Jamal is better than Wade that doesnt mean wade wont pass him just means that as of this moment Crawford is the better player.


Are you serious?


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>bullet</b>!
> 
> 
> I think thats an insult for Wade - Wade is so much better as a rookie then JC will ever be,Wade is gonna be a superstar,while Jamal at his best will not be considered a star - out of the one on one league.




than jamal will ever be ? their goes another comment that makes me questions a persons intelligence.

Wade is  gonna be ? But hes not yet so thats an opinion not a fact and I never questioned wades abilities or his desire to improve but right now Jamal Crawford is the better player .


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> We're still agreeing on most things.
> ...


what is the world coming too?

back on to Wade vs Jamal. Its so easy to say Jamal can score 17 a night and blah blah blah. But at the end of the day, basketball is played on 2 ends of the floor. and Wade is simply better. In fact, offensively, wade almost does everything better then Jamal as is. This one isnt particularly close


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> If you place jamal on the heat with Odom on one wing and EJ on the other wing and Butler in the corner .His shooting percentages and overall game play would be even better than they are now .
> 
> Wade has a cushion of playing on a team where if he doesnt have a huge offensive night someone else will so the pressure is not there like it is on Jamal in chicago.
> ...


You've got to be kidding me. Wade is a flat-out stud. Go to the Heat forum and see if they'd be interested in a Wade for Crawford trade. You probably aren't going to like their response.

As for the whole reversing of situations scenario - I think Wade would prosper here or anywhere else for that matter. One of the things that will make him a special player is that first step of his. Jamal doesn't have anything close to that. Wade finishes at the rim. Jamal floats at the rim.

Wade is better than Crawford now. He'll be better than Crawford in the future.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> what is the world coming too?
> ...



Does almost everything better than offensively like what ?

Wade cant shoot for all the talk and hype you guys are bringing for wade he cant shoot beyond 16 ft so when you go saying hes a complete player I just cant buy it.

Does he pass better ? NO

Does he dunk better ? yes 

penetrate ?

Does he handle the ball better ? No 

Does he rebound better ? Yes 



Lets take Odom,EJ and Butler off and let him play with Rasual Butler,haslem, and skip to my lou to finish out the year and se what happens.

Im not even going to get into the fact that hes tarting to look more and more Erobbery with his injuries .


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> You've got to be kidding me. Wade is a flat-out stud. Go to the Heat forum and see if they'd be interested in a Wade for Crawford trade. You probably aren't going to like their response.
> ...


Of course the Heat fans wouldnt want to deal him .No one is auestioning whether he can play or not 

Wade cant shoot we have no one else to spread the floor nor anyone to finish on our team like he does in Miami .Good questions would sit back and let him shoot all day from the outside .

Another person with the all seeing eye into the future .

No one is arguing whether wade could be better than Crawford in the future but as of right now Jamal is the better player.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> When he plays the point he undoubtedly does.


 

He isn't even the best player on the team at that position...so we should give that thought up.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Wade runs screen rolls better. His inbetween game is better. He finishes at the rim better and gets to the line more. He doesnt force up bad shots. He isnt as slick a ballhandler and doesnt have Jamals shot, but Wade is flat out as good offensively as Jamal is. On the other end of the court, its laughable. Wade is a lock down defender. He is a very good player. This one, isnt close


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> If you place jamal on the heat with Odom on one wing and EJ on the other wing and Butler in the corner .His shooting percentages and overall game play would be even better than they are now .


And the Heats record?


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Wade runs screen rolls better. His inbetween game is better. He finishes at the rim better and gets to the line more. He doesnt force up bad shots. He isnt as slick a ballhandler and doesnt have Jamals shot, but Wade is flat out as good offensively as Jamal is. On the other end of the court, its laughable. Wade is a lock down defender. He is a very good player. This one, isnt close


Wade doesnt run screen and roll better because he cant shoot.

He doesnt have to force up bad shots !! Because he has other options put him on the Bulls and watch the shooting percentage plumment .Think paul Pierce without the 3-ball because without those other options with the new zone rules teams will shut him down .

As for lock down defender its laughable when people toss that word around so much that it loses its meaning .

A lockdown defender is Bowen ,Artest , Gp back in the day a guy you put on teh other teams best scorer and shuts him down .Wade is a good,maybe even great defender but hes no lockdown guy. I wont even say he cant develop into one but hes not there yet.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> Of course the Heat fans wouldnt want to deal him .No one is auestioning whether he can play or not
> ...


Where is this Wade can't shoot stuff comming from? They guy is shooting 47% from the field and 32% from the three point line. As opposed to Jamal - all world - Crawford who shoots 39% from the field and 31% from the three point line. They play comparable minutes. Wade has been to the line 38 more times yet has played about 470 fewer minutes than Jamal. Wade is already a better on the ball defender.

I'm waiting with baited breath to read the littany of excuses you'll come up with as to why Jamal is not shooting above 40% and can't seen to defend a chair for more than 12 seconds.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

just a head to head comparison

Wade
16.7 Ppg
4.4 Rpg
4.4 apg
1.38 spg
.67 bpg
.468 fg
.732 ft
.316 3pt
36 mpg

Crawford
17 ppg
3.6 rpg
5.3 apg
1.39 spg
.33 bpg
.392 fg
.820 ft
.309 3pt
34.8 mpg

And not only that, but Wade has made his team better, reflective of playing on a better team. That fact alone always carries some more weight. Also, Wade is a much better man to man defender. Sorry Truth, mate, its nothing personal, but this one is getting away from you. I want to be on your side on this. I think Wade fans are one of the most unrealistic groups out there, but this guy is damn good. Even I have to admit it


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> Where is this Wade can't shoot stuff comming from? They guy is shooting 47% from the field and 32% from the three point line. As opposed to Jamal - all world - Crawford who shoots 39% from the field and 31% from the three point line. They play comparable minutes. Wade has been to the line 38 more times yet has played about 470 fewer minutes than Jamal. Wade is already a better on the ball defender.
> ...


Thumbs up.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> Where is this Wade can't shoot stuff comming from? They guy is shooting 47% from the field and 32% from the three point line. As opposed to Jamal - all world - Crawford who shoots 39% from the field and 31% from the three point line. They play comparable minutes. Wade has been to the line 38 more times yet has played about 470 fewer minutes than Jamal. Wade is already a better on the ball defender.
> ...


Thats on like all driving to the basket and from within 17 ft.

The real difference in their games is Crawford is more shooter and Wade more slasher .

wade has taken 52 3point shots :laugh: 

You put wade on the Bulls the last 4 months and see if he is still shooting 47% now .

Why is Baron Davis shooting below 40% 

paul pierce is shooting 40%

Ai 39%

lebron James 41 %

Billups 39%

Steveie franchise 39%


The thing is Jamal Crawford was put in similar positions to some of the superstar players in the league hes not one but thats the position he was put in and on certain levels hes performed as well as if not better than some of them .Wade has not been placed in that position so to be crying wade is better because the Heats record is better or because he plays defense is just doesnt cut it.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

Neither Hinrich nor Crawford can do it by themselves. But neither of them are weakpoints.

What I saw in the warriors game was that the offense didn't move with Jamal at point, and they struggled to score with Kirk. Jamal's better at getting the ball to Eddy, Kirk is better at penetrating.

The problem is Eddy not getting in position and then him forcing up these lucky-*** babyhooks with no one in a position to rebound. If he's going to score with no one in position to rebound, he better get f'in closer.

As for Wade vs. Jamal. Speed and power count for a lot in this game. Wadey has that speed and power and thus the constant in his game of driving in and being a badass battering ram. He's got a simple north/south approach. You want that certainty and authority down the stretch. Jamal has more individual skills, but he lacks a lot in the power department. He's all over the map to avoid contact. If (really big if) Jamal could get past floating and assert an ounce of authority, he'd be much more consistent and we wouldn't have this debate. It's much harder to pull things together if you're a player who has to find all these ways making up for lack of combined strength and speed to get to the basket. . .


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> When he plays the point he undoubtedly does. Jamal is the best guy on the team for feeding Curry down low and getting him involved. At Sg, his job isn't really to MAKE players better around him, it is to score and try to win ball games along with the rest of the team. I think you hold Jamal to an unrealistic standard.


It only prove that Jamal has no place here on Bulls then cause almost GM and most of fan here (except a coulpe ) think that Kirk is PG for Bulls now and amny years to come.

Jamal either develop his game as SG or he can move on to another team. He is playing out of his position dosn't cut any more at all.

He lost that position fair and square to Kirk. To a rookie.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> 
> It only prove that Jamal has no place here on Bulls then cause almost GM and most of fan here (except a coulpe ) think that Kirk is PG for Bulls now and amny years to come.
> 
> ...


A rookie who be very good. Jamal him a player that be better at point. but, he him be ok when he play sg with more strength. So he neeed work out much during off season. him play like sg then. Hope you understood that


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does he pass better ? Yes

Does he dunk better ? YES

penetrate ? YES

Does he handle the ball better ? Yes

Does he rebound better ? YES


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> Thats on like all driving to the basket and from within 17 ft.
> ...


Denial ain't just a river in Egypt my friend. Whatever floats your boat. You keep telling yourself these things if it helps you to sleep better at night.

As for the shooting percentages, all that really matters is did the ball go in the hoop? I don't care if it was dunks and shots within 17ft. the FACT of the matter is Wade shoots at 47% and Jamal at 39%. Plain and simple. Spin it however you'd like. Excuse Jamal in whatever manner works for you. At the end of the day, Wade is the more effective ballplayer because he scores more efficiently and he actually plays some defense. Jamal scores ineffectively and plays medicore defense. I guess I'll just have to live with the fact that only one person here is defending Jamal and the rest are questioning why that's happening.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> A rookie who be very good. Jamal him a player that be better at point. but, he him be ok when he play sg with more strength. So he neeed work out much during off season. him play like sg then. Hope you understood that


:rofl: 


seriously ace, the jamal would be better if he were only the point guard arguement is getting a little stale. but really funny comeback. good one.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> 
> It only prove that Jamal has no place here on Bulls then cause almost GM and most of fan here (except a coulpe ) think that Kirk is PG for Bulls now and amny years to come.
> 
> ...


See these are the posts that fan a Kirk/Jamal rivalry. Maybe Kirk's just too good to keep on the bench and that this combo actually works best for the team ? It's not like we have a Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall to worry about giving shots and playing time anymore.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

ACE, cmon mate, thats a little low. 

Here is the simple fact, this team is bad. And not only is it subpar players 1-3 but players 4-10 are really bad. Its usually a smart idea to get your top 2 or 3 players and then rebuild. I am not sure we have that now. But heck, maybe we do. I wont throw the towel in on JC til we can see what he can do with better all around players around him and Curry/Hinrich. I just dont think that is going to happen


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> Denial ain't just a river in Egypt my friend. Whatever floats your boat. You keep telling yourself these things if it helps you to sleep better at night.
> ...



Who is excusing jamal Im only pointing out that if all that mattered was shooting percentages then why is AI and Paul Pierce in the all star and Wade was watching .

I dont know what world you live in that al that mattered are the stats where situations ,style of play are not taken into account .

Its crazy how lil ole Jamal Crawford gets held to a higher standard than anyone else in the league .But with some of the hating going on around here Im not suprised .


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> A rookie who be very good. Jamal him a player that be better at point. but, he him be ok when he play sg with more strength. So he neeed work out much during off season. him play like sg then. Hope you understood that


I am just saying no matter hard that you want Jamal as PG for Bulls, it simply isn't going to happen. That is a fact.

If you can agree with this, then youcan still dream about Jamal being PG for Bulls for years to come.

I am not fdreaming your dream, though.

We got one piece of puzzle at least for now and his name is Kirk. Move on. You are not going anywhere with this "Oh, Jamal is a better player when he is a PG.". Simply because it's not going to happen.


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>E L D R U H M A I</b>!
> 
> See these are the posts that fan a Kirk/Jamal rivalry. Maybe Kirk's just too good to keep on the bench and that this combo actually works best for the team ? It's not like we have a Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall to worry about giving shots and playing time anymore.


I am just answering Ace's obsession of Jamal being better as PG cause it's not going to happen here on Bulls.


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

the difference maker is fta.

205 attempts in 42 games. that's 4.89 fta per. and that's for a rookie who gets poo calls.

jamal is getting better at attacking but he's still 167 fta in 57 games.

i guess it comes down to playing style and i'd rather have someone like wade on my team anyday. heck i'd take wade over jamal, or hinrich, or chandler. the flip side to wade having a poor jumpshot is that he doesn't settle for jumpshots.


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Usually when posters get personal I don't bother to reply - so lets lay the personal insults off,it's stupid - peace!!

now i guess from all the r u kidding u got of overrating Jamal u can see ur'e not on the safe side!

Wade can't shoot - he's even shooting a higher % from 3p then Jamal and he's considered a slasher - probably already one of the best in the league,maybe AI has a quicker 1st stepp!
FG% is way higher than JC's.
D so much better.

he's an allaround player,not a 1 on 1 guy.

OH,and yes it's my opinion,It's my opinion he's way better today,and it's my opinion he's way better today than JC will ever be.and i can see by replies to your post I'm not alone - cool down,get down to earth,Wade and JC r not in the same league (yes,it's my unintelligent opinion)

than Jamal will ever be - Iv'e seen him play for the 4th season and thats where i come from,i don't think he'll ever be as good as Wade is now,and if he will be as good as Wade right now,I'd be happy to keep him.


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

As for the answer to the original question of the subject, I second rlucas's opinion. NEVER.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> 
> I am just saying no matter hard that you want Jamal as PG for Bulls, it simply isn't going to happen. That is a fact.
> 
> ...


Man, I'm sorry but reading your posts is like having My eyes gouged out by grammar. 


Jamal is better at the point this season. He doesn't have the strength to play sg well YET. He was forced into being sg this year because of Hinrich's emergence as a very good pg in his rookie year. Of course, we shouldn't forget the fact that Jamal is STILL being allowed to run the point about half the time..something you probably missed. In any case, Jamal will be better at sg after he has a chance to add some more muscle and after he gets a chance to familiarize himself with his new role. Of course, nothing short of him turning into Michael Jordan is going to convince the ABC crew. Jamal had 27 points on 12-21 shooting and led ALL scoreres in the GS game, he was instrumental in that victory scoring 17 of his 27 in the 4th and in OT. But, he's gonna get bashed on here in spite of that. He could come out and play really well and drop 30 on Cleveland tonight, and we would still be talking, ad naseum whether he is worth the MLE or not. It's ridiculous. Jamal isn't the best player in the league by any stretch but he is clearly one of THE best players on the Bulls and not the cause of the all of the Bulls woes and their woeful record. Some of you guys need to grow a pair of eyeballs or actually tune into the games or something IMHO.


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Man, I'm sorry but reading your posts is like having My eyes gouged out by grammar.


Sorry for that, but it's message that matters.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not really. Such a thought ignores the fact that basketball is inescapably a team sport.

Put it in abstract terms:
Jamal is the best PG and gives you some value, say 10, as a PG.
When used as a SG, he gives you a value of 7.

Kirk used at the PG gives you a value of 9, but when used as a SG gives you only 4.

Your next best option, say Kendall Gill gives you a value of 5 at the shooting guard spot.

How do you get the most value out of this team?

1- Kirk 9
2- Jamal 7

beats

1- Jamal 10
2- Gill 5

beats

1- Jamal 10
2- Kirk 4

Even if Jamal is a better PG, you maximize the value of what's on the floor by playing him at SG.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> 
> Sorry for that, but it's message that matters.


Yeah but who is gonna get the message if it sounds like a caveman is saying it? No offense dude.


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah but who is gonna get the message if it sounds like a caveman is saying it? No offense dude.


How did you find out that I am a caveman?


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> A rookie who be very good. Jamal him a player that be better at point. but, he him be ok when he play sg with more strength. So he neeed work out much during off season. him play like sg then. Hope you understood that


I agree with rlucas... it was pretty clear what he was getting at. Getting a laugh at someone's expense doesn't mean you're anything close to right regarding the topic at hand.


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As has been pointed out, Iverson and Pierce GET TO THE LINE. Iverson has 407 FTA and Pierce has 464. Jamal has 167 FTA. They don't shoot the greatest percentage in the world but they still effect the game in a way that Crawford hasn't yet. Iverson is always amongst the league leaders in steals. His assist numbers are better than Crawfords. Pierce is simply a stud. Wade isn't on par with these two yet but I really don't think its so unrealistic to think he's gonna get there far sooner than Jamal ever will.

Wade is simply a more complete ballplayer. I'm not sure what's so hard to grasp about this. It's not hating on Jamal. I'm a huge Bulls homer but I also know a talented player when I see one and Wade is talented.

Bottom line, if I was asked who I would prefer on the Bulls right now - Crawford or Wade - I would chose Wade in less than a nanosecond.

What was this thread about again?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mikedc</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree with rlucas... pretty low. Getting a laugh at someone's expense doesn't mean you're anything close to right regarding the topic at hand.


Maybe you can get a couple of other guys and come up with a consensus!  I really don't care Mike. I like you and RLucas both but I'm through playing self censor. And if you disagree with my opinion thats your right as an American! Good for you.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> 
> How did you find out that I am a caveman?


The dialect gave it all away


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Yeah but who is gonna get the message if it sounds like a caveman is saying it? No offense dude.


How did you find out that I am a caveman?  

The point is that I can understand your faith in Jamal's game. I can even uderstand your logic for Jamal being a better player as PG. But it's getting really old for most of us. 

How can we use him as PG when we have Kirk and he already prove beyong any doubt that he is a future PG for Bulls? Unless you can admit this fact, then all the other argument kind of lose the point. 

Do you see any possible scenario that we can use Jamal as PG instead of Kirk? Do you really think other GM or coach or fan here will buy that argument? I think not. So based on your obsession on Jamal, I can only see two options:

1. Jamal's better develop necessary skill as SG (although I doubt this ) and play for Bulls as SG.

2. He play PG in different uniform.


Either you won't see Jamal as PG here for the Bulls.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> 
> How did you find out that I am a caveman?
> 
> ...


Now thats a coherent post that I can follow. Nicely done. Jamal DOES still play pg. Don't you realize this? Jamal and Kirk are basically sharing pg duties. Still, I think your correct in your assertion that Jamal needs to develop better SG skills before he will be able to be a full time SG for the Bulls. He needs to add muscle as well. But he can and will do that, I mean Jamal is REALLY a combo guard, he just isn't ready to play SG full time in the NBA. But, give him an offseason to bulk up and adjust. Maybe you don't know this, but Jamal was told to be prepared to be the teams full time pg during the offseason and as such he worked on that skill set in the offseason.


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## TRUTHHURTS (Mar 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> As has been pointed out, Iverson and Pierce GET TO THE LINE. Iverson has 407 FTA and Pierce has 464. Jamal has 167 FTA. They don't shoot the greatest percentage in the world but they still effect the game in a way that Crawford hasn't yet. Iverson is always amongst the league leaders in steals. His assist numbers are better than Crawfords. Pierce is simply a stud. Wade isn't on par with these two yet but I really don't think its so unrealistic to think he's gonna get there far sooner than Jamal ever will.
> ...


But it doesnt matter because by your own words all that matters is that the ball goes in the hoop .

Ohh wait....... that only counts if its jamal Crawford  



> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> As for the shooting percentages, all that really matters is did the ball go in the hoop? I don't care if it was dunks and shots within 17ft. the FACT of the matter is Wade shoots at 47% and Jamal at 39%


Thats the problem when it comes to some of you with Jamal Crawford.

one set of guidelines Jamal Crawford must play by to be considered even a good player 

but a whole different set of guidelines for everyone else .


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> 
> 
> But it doesnt matter because by your own words all that matters is that the ball goes in the hoop .
> ...


This is my last response to you cause it just ain't gettin through.

It doesn't matter how the ball goes through the hoop. Good shooting percentage (Wade) or poor shooting percentage plus lots of free throws (Pierce and Iverson). Either way, those three players are helping their teams out by either shooting efficiently or putting points on the board without the clock ticking. CRAWFORD doesn't do either! He shoots a poor percentage AND he doesn't get to the line all that much. Couple that with the fact that he's a below-average defender.

There's no double-standard here. It's the same measuring stick for all these players and Jamal doesn't measure up. A poor shooting percentage can be excused if a player can effect the game in different ways such as lock-down defense or getting to the line or rebounding like a maniac. Crawford doesn't do those things. If you don't see that, it's not my fault. It's a pretty objective set of standards. If that's hating on Jamal then so be it. This game has both and offensive and defensive side to things and a one-way player who isn't even all that effective in the one way that he plays is NEVER going to be viewed as superior to a player who plays both ways or at least plays in a manner that can help a team win.

Gee, I guess I'm a Jamal hater now... Hmmmmm. Too bad. I really like the kid too.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> Jamal isn't the best player in the league by any stretch but he is clearly one of THE best players on the Bulls


...and the Bulls are one of the worst teams...

What are we saying??


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> ...and the Bulls are one of the worst teams...
> ...


What I have been saying, pretty consistently, is that the Bulls need to put better players around the three C's and Hinrich and let them continue to develop.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

The Heat fans have spoken:

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81273&forumid=35

TruthHurts, eh?


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> The Heat fans have spoken:
> 
> http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81273&forumid=35
> ...


It does - i posted already i tend to think TruthHurts is Jamals mother - she even thinks higher of jamal than he does,and that's only possible if she's JC's mom.


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## jc76ers (Feb 4, 2004)

i have a piece of advice for everyone that thinks jamal sucks....why don't you all apply the standards that you set for jamal to lets say someone on the bulls like.....oh...how about...hinrich!! hinrich shoots below 40%. gosh he sucks too then...the bulls are one of the worst teams in the league and according to guys like GB here, hinrich is by far the best player, so what does that say about hinrich....gosh he must really really suck!!!!! and whats up with the argument about jamal sucking as a shooting guard?? can hinrich play shooting guard? i don't think so. i believe jamal was moved to shooting guard because no one on the bulls can play that position better so he was up for it. and you guys gotta admit hinrichs defense is overrated. i've never seen him completely shut someone down. and don't say iverson....if you call shutting down iverson to holding him to 35 points on something like 12-26 shooting then you must be insane. but somehow hinrich fans think iverson was shut down. yeah sure!!


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> i have a piece of advice for everyone that thinks jamal sucks....why don't you all apply the standards that you set for jamal to lets say someone on the bulls like.....oh...how about...hinrich!! hinrich shoots below 40%. gosh he sucks too then...the bulls are one of the worst teams in the league and according to guys like GB here, hinrich is by far the best player, so what does that say about hinrich....gosh he must really really suck!!!!! and whats up with the argument about jamal sucking as a shooting guard?? can hinrich play shooting guard? i don't think so. i believe jamal was moved to shooting guard because no one on the bulls can play that position better so he was up for it. and you guys gotta admit hinrichs defense is overrated. i've never seen him completely shut someone down. and don't say iverson....if you call shutting down iverson to holding him to 35 points on something like 12-26 shooting then you must be insane. but somehow hinrich fans think iverson was shut down. yeah sure!!


For the record, I dont think anyone said jamal stinks. I just think they said he wasnt Dwayne Wade


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> For the record, I dont think anyone said jamal stinks. I just think they said he wasnt Dwayne Wade


A LOT of people have said Jamal stinks.

In any case, I haven't seen enough of Wade to really give a fair comparison between the two players. I do think, based on what little I have seen of Wade and on their stats that they are players that are at least in the same hemisphere. It doesn't look like Wade is head and shoulders better than Crawford but he may be a little better.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

When is Jamal going to be as good as Jalen Rose?

Rose put up 14 30+ point games last season, averaged roughly the same number of assists and rebounds, and he shot better for 2's and 3's. Oh yeah, he averaged about 5PPG more and went to the FT line about 6 times per game, too.

So if Rose stinks, then why do we think so highly of Jamal?


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jc76ers</b>!
> i have a piece of advice for everyone that thinks jamal sucks....why don't you all apply the standards that you set for jamal to lets say someone on the bulls like.....oh...how about...hinrich!! hinrich shoots below 40%. gosh he sucks too then...the bulls are one of the worst teams in the league and according to guys like GB here, hinrich is by far the best player, so what does that say about hinrich....gosh he must really really suck!!!!! and whats up with the argument about jamal sucking as a shooting guard?? can hinrich play shooting guard? i don't think so. i believe jamal was moved to shooting guard because no one on the bulls can play that position better so he was up for it. and you guys gotta admit hinrichs defense is overrated. i've never seen him completely shut someone down. and don't say iverson....if you call shutting down iverson to holding him to 35 points on something like 12-26 shooting then you must be insane. but somehow hinrich fans think iverson was shut down. yeah sure!!


He does not stink - he's just not as good as many people think IMO.
he'd be ok as 6th man,probably even a good one.
Kirk D is not overrated and AI scoring 35 points usually has nothing to do with who's defending him.Kirk effort as opposed to jamals lack of effort is not overrated.
Kirk is a rookie and shoots almost 10% better from 3p,and again - as a ROOKIE even shoots a higher fg%.
Jamal does not stink - he's just a guy i'm not sure i want as a starter on my team - maybe u got some trade with your 76ers for him - if u really want him.
Jamal probably has more talent then Kirk - it's the head that makes Kirk a much better piece in the puzzle IMO!

Oh - and i think Wade and Jamal r not in the same league - IMO Wade is at least 2 degrees of a player above JC.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> A LOT of people have said Jamal stinks.
> ...


Who has the better arc and trajectory(sp)?

In other words...in two seasons, who will still have plenty of headroom to get better, and who will be petering out the max of their potential?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Who has the better arc and trajectory(sp)?
> ...


I think they both still have a lot of upside. You will disagree but I think Jamal has a higher ceiling than Wade.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> When is Jamal going to be as good as Jalen Rose?
> 
> Rose put up 14 30+ point games last season, averaged roughly the same number of assists and rebounds, and he shot better for 2's and 3's. Oh yeah, he averaged about 5PPG more and went to the FT line about 6 times per game, too.
> ...


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## thunderspirit (Jun 25, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: When When Jamal Play at LeBrons Level?*



> Originally posted by <b>TRUTHHURTS</b>!
> He (Pax) thought the same thing most Bulls fans thought .


what, that it was time to blow up the team and start over? i think that's Danny Ainge you're thinking of there.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: When Will Jamal Play at LeBrons Level?*



> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> I'm really anxious for our team to take off.
> 
> Apparently a lot of people believe Jamal is a "special player" -- so I'm wondering when he's actually going to help us make a difference in our win/loss record and make the players around him better by taking the load off of them and by inspiring them with his play and mental toughness.
> ...


So the collective answer is:

Never.

?


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## bullet (Jul 1, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> When is Jamal going to be as good as Jalen Rose?
> 
> Rose put up 14 30+ point games last season, averaged roughly the same number of assists and rebounds, and he shot better for 2's and 3's. Oh yeah, he averaged about 5PPG more and went to the FT line about 6 times per game, too.
> ...


I agree.

the answer to the general thread topic is of course - NEVER.

JC is a kind of a Ricky Davis at PG.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

*Re: Re: When Will Jamal Play at LeBrons Level?*



> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> So the collective answer is:
> ...


when will jamal play at lebron's level?

um, hopefully TONIGHT. 

:grinning:


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

So, basically the whole point of this thread is to bash Jamal? To restate the fact that he isn't s superstar like Lebron and can't lead the Bulls anyway until they actually get some decent players around him? ummm..yeah...I'll buy that.

Of course, Jamal did score 27 on 12-21 and lead the Bulls past GS scoring 17 of his points in the 4th & OT. His line was very comparable to Lebron's line too incidentally. Lebron is a once in a lifetime phenom. Jamal is a very good young developing player with a couple of decent teamates on his team and nothing more.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

GB asks a good question and I hate the fact that some of you want to resort to childish behavior instead of trying to answer it factually.

Comparing Jamal to LeBron is very fair, and if it were unfair to anyone, it would be unfair to James as Jamal has had several years of NBA-level life, conditioning, and experience. 

The fact that Jamal is not as good as LeBron is currently can really only mean one of a couple things: 1) Jamal isn't as good as originally advertised; 2) Jamal has a very slow learning and development curve; or 3) Jamal is simply going to be an average to slightly above average NBA player.

Take your pick, but those are my three guesses. My feeling is that Jamal is a little of all of them.

1) Jamal was an enigma back at the pre-draft camp when he came in and wooed the suitors. Back then, the underclassman was sort of the "in thing" and Jamal's stock rose heavily because of a couple good performances. At Michigan I always though he was going to be stuck... hell, I liked Kevin Gaines more then I liked Jamal Crawford.

2) Jamal is simply a slow learner and definitely a slow developer. His body, now almost 4 years later, has shown little maturity. Maybe he needed to enlist the services of Balco. Maybe Jamal and Tyson go halfsies on a cheeseburger and a chocolate shake after games... two straws of course.

3) Lastly, like it or not, Jamal is a PG. As much as we all loved the scenario of Jamal "bulking up" and playing the SG, it is painfully obvious that Jamal is a point. He simply doesn't have the physicalility to play the 2, so how can he get comfortable there where he is going to take major league abuse.

All in all, I see Jamal relegated to playing the "Bobby Jackson" role is he continues on the SG path. It is unfair to Jamal because he could very well blossom into a top flight PG and the Bobby Jackson role is not going to take him anywhere and it is unfair to us because we are seriously shorted at the SG position when Jamal plays there.

So what does this mean? In my eyes it spells sign and trade.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Pretty bad question if you ask me...

They aren't the same kind of players, they aren't in similar situations.

I would say this question was worse than bad, really, the question was just an opening GB created so Jamal could be bashed some more.

That's all this question was...

Please spare me any explanations...

I'm having enough trouble walking as it is through all the thick B.S. in here...


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Outstanding post Retro.

I wanted to take the first sentance and post a stuck out tongue next to it, but I can't get my tongue out of my mouth from being punched in it last week.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> I would say this question was worse than bad, really, the question was just an opening GB created so Jamal could be bashed some more.


No...it really was based on the amount of faith invested in Jamal by the denizens of this board.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Pretty bad question if you ask me...
> 
> They aren't the same kind of players, they aren't in similar situations.
> ...


Gee, someone else sees the same thing I do! Jamal isn't as good as the greatest prep to pro's phenom ever? Gee, thats a shock!


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> Outstanding post Retro.
> 
> I wanted to take the first sentance and post a stuck out tongue next to it, but I can't get my tongue out of my mouth from being punched in it last week.


LOL... just trying to be fair on the subject instead of getting my Crawberry panties in a bunch.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> GB asks a good question and I hate the fact that some of you want to resort to childish behavior instead of trying to answer it factually.
> 
> Comparing Jamal to LeBron is very fair...


As I just said, this question is beyond bad...

Since when was Jamal a hometown kid who's been expected to save a franchise?

Since when did Jamal have a Paul Silas as a coach?

Since when did Jamal have an all-star as a center, a 2nd rd steal, potential all-star at PF, and vets that actually contribute and bring playoff experience to the team?

Jamal has none of that, he's not Lebron, they're not the same players, in the same situations, etc.

This was an opening created so Jamal could be bashed...

No one in their right mind is going to say oh ya Jamal is better than Lebron or will be better...or whatever

POINTLESS QUESTION.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

I'll say too, I honestly expected a couple of "you'll begin to see it next season" answers.

The answers in the KH thread surprised me too.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> As I just said, this question is beyond bad...
> ...


All of the stuff you mentioned should actually make it *HARDER* on LeBron, not easier.

Only you can prevent forest fires!


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> No...it really was based on the amount of faith invested in Jamal by the denizens of this board.


Yeah, cuz we all said Jamal is better than Lebron and Kobe and ....ummm...yeah.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> As I just said, this question is beyond bad...
> ...


You're going out of your way (to Mexico, from Florida, to get to New York) to split hairs.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> I'll say too, I honestly expected a couple of "you'll begin to see it next season" answers.
> 
> The answers in the KH thread surprised me too.


I'm sure they're coming.

Fact is, much like when Jay and Jamal were battling, this is the same situation going on. I think both Kirk and Jamal are point guards and one will have to go because neither would want to be a 2nd fiddle and neither are legit SGs.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> All of the stuff you mentioned should actually make it *HARDER* on LeBron, not easier.
> ...


What are you talking about?

Read my post again...

Then try again...


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

I remember that Krause once called Jamal his "Michael Jordan".


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> What are you talking about?
> ...


I did read your scribble but your points don't prove a thing. I understand you are hip hop and Jamal is your guy, but c'mon. Enough is enough.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> I did read your scribble but your points don't prove a thing. I understand you are hip hop and Jamal is your guy, but c'mon. Enough is enough.


Huh? why is it everyone wants to associate Jamal with hip hop? Because he is friends with Jay Z? Because he played in a summer league tournament? So, your saying, if I read your post right, that Lebron having REAL NBA talent around him makes itHARDER for him to be a good player? Say what now?


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> You're going out of your way (to Mexico, from Florida, to get to New York) to split hairs.


You're going out of your way to bash Jamal...

You didn't put Kirk's name in the title of your thread....


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> You're going out of your way (to Mexico, from Florida, to get to New York) to split hairs.


You're going out of your way to bash Jamal...

You didn't put Kirk's name in the title of your thread....


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> You're going out of your way (to Mexico, from Florida, to get to New York) to split hairs.


You're going out of your way to bash Jamal...

You didn't put Kirk's name in the title of your thread....


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> You're going out of your way to bash Jamal...
> ...


Because I was comparing Jamal to LeBron.

Where is there room for KH in that discussion?:sigh: 

I understand your point--you don't think they should have been compared.

But I did, given the tremendous hype and all for Jamal.

Just agree to disagree dude.


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Huh? why is it everyone wants to associate Jamal with hip hop? Because he is friends with Jay Z? Because he played in a summer league tournament? So, your saying, if I read your post right, that Lebron having REAL NBA talent around him makes itHARDER for him to be a good player? Say what now?


Jamal doesn't have REAL NBA talent? I've summed up my difference and Jamal. There is nothing else I can say on the guy.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> 
> 
> Jamal doesn't have REAL NBA talent? I've summed up my difference and Jamal. There is nothing else I can say on the guy.


Come on Retro, you aren't an idiot...

You know damn well that Lebron has a better cast than what we have in Chicago...

Yes Lebron is doing his thing, but they're winning now because they've brought in some vets that CONTRIBUTE, and he has Boozer and Z to contribute...

If you put Lebron on the Bulls, it'd be the same result, but Lebron would have high #s. 

You give him some players to work with and he'd have high #s and wins...


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## fl_flash (Aug 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ace20004u</b>!
> 
> 
> Huh? why is it everyone wants to associate Jamal with hip hop? Because he is friends with Jay Z? Because he played in a summer league tournament? So, your saying, if I read your post right, that Lebron having REAL NBA talent around him makes itHARDER for him to be a good player? Say what now?


I think what he's stating is that James is a hometown kid straight out of HS who has had the expectations placed upon him of reviving a terrible franchise and lead it back to respectibility. That's a lot to put on anybody - let alone a 19 year old kid. Jamal has never had those kids of expectations placed upon him. Actually, Curry is in the exact same boat as James - at least as far as situations and expectations go...


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> I think what he's stating is that James is a hometown kid straight out of HS who has had the expectations placed upon him of reviving a terrible franchise and lead it back to respectibility. That's a lot to put on anybody - let alone a 19 year old kid. Jamal has never had those kids of expectations placed upon him. Actually, Curry is in the exact same boat as James - at least as far as situations and expectations go...


Lebron's coming at a time when teams and people in general are becoming more savvy about how to handle high school kids. He's been in the spotlight for a long time, so he's been used to that. With this huge spotlight on him, he's also given more of a chance. It may have been easier to knock him down because he didn't live up to expectation, but he's definitely been given more of a chance than Jamal. Silas himself had a quote about sticking with his best players through thick and thin, whereas we've had these fluctuating patterns with Jamal.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>fl_flash</b>!
> 
> 
> I think what he's stating is that James is a hometown kid straight out of HS who has had the expectations placed upon him of reviving a terrible franchise and lead it back to respectibility. That's a lot to put on anybody - let alone a 19 year old kid. Jamal has never had those kids of expectations placed upon him. Actually, Curry is in the exact same boat as James - at least as far as situations and expectations go...


Thanks for explaining it to me because I sure didn't understand. True, Lebron may have had more expectations of him, of course, judging by all the threads like "Why isn't Jamal like Lebron" threads you see on here I would say crawford has had a lot of pressure on him to return a big franchise like Chicago back to respectability. And he has had it with guys like Khalid El_amin, Rick Brunson, Bryce Drew etc... Whereas, Lebron has Z, (had Davis), jeff Mcginnis, (Had Miles), Boozer, Dejuan Wagner...etc...


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

woooooooooooooow... comparing Crawford to Lebron... i seen it all...


thats apples and oranges... Crawford is a 6'5 195lb toothpick with talent

and lebron is 6'8 240lbs with a body of a power forward and unlimited potential...

 


then you say lebron has z and boozer... 

a center who dominates (lol) in the eastern conference due to lack of competition in that position...

and boozer... who is incredible (im surprised he slipped to the second round) but the fact is... he still was a second rounder...

you cant be mad the so called saviors.... chandler and curry... (very high lottery picks at that) are busts so far... chandler plays hard, but his body cannot play as hard as chandler wants... and curry just has no heart whatsoever.... waste of size and talent up until this point...


if they still had elton brand it may be a different story... but u cannot compare crawford to lebron.... as lebron is a player you build a team around... while crawford is simply a piece of the puzzle...


now comparing crawford to wade.... *falls out chair*

its scary how posters on this board have these impossible expectations of their hometown team and players...

at least in new york we realize garbage players when we see it... too bad our management sucked...


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## RetroDreams (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RetroDreams</b>!
> GB asks a good question and I hate the fact that some of you want to resort to childish behavior instead of trying to answer it factually.
> 
> Comparing Jamal to LeBron is very fair, and if it were unfair to anyone, it would be unfair to James as Jamal has had several years of NBA-level life, conditioning, and experience.
> ...


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tragedy</b>!
> 
> its scary how posters on this board have these impossible expectations of their hometown team and players...


Yeah, I know. IT is SCARY.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tragedy</b>!
> woooooooooooooow... comparing Crawford to Lebron... i seen it all...
> 
> 
> ...


Check yourself homey. No one here who likes Jamal is comparing him to James. It's just another tool for those who want to see him leave to marginalize his contributions.

Like ACE said, Jamal isn't as good as the greatest prep to pro ever? SHOCK! 

And GB, I do think Lebron is close to T-Mac and Kobe's level right now. And it's probably only a year away from him overtaking whichever one of them that doesn't step up his game from this year.

As far as Wade vs. Jamal. They're pretty close. I'd pick Wade just because he is in Miami, which is a far better situation to grow in. Jamal has been set back by the virtue of coming to this grossly incompetent(to the point of being maliciously incompetent) organization. If Jamal, Eddy and Tyson had each gone to diffrent teams that weren't the bulls they would probably be markedly better at this point.

And Retro I disagree that if the comparison between Lebron and Jamal is unfair, it's to James. None of Jamal's "experience" has been usefull or meaningfull until Skiles came in. I would wager Lebron recieved better instruction in high school than Jamal has recieved with the Bulls.

But at any rate. You're comparing the greatest, with Lew Alcindor, to come out of high school, to a kid that was pretty unheralded coming out of michigan.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> Check yourself homey. No one here who likes Jamal is comparing him to James. It's just another tool for those who want to see him leave to marginalize his contributions.
> ...


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

tell me if you see a pattern


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Tragedy</b>!
> now comparing crawford to wade.... *falls out chair*


LOL!


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> Jamal has been set back by the virtue of coming to this grossly incompetent(to the point of being maliciously incompetent) organization.


I'll put it like this: If his tenure with the Bulls was a setback, and not a lack of superstar talent---then he should sue them because he'll never reach that potential now *and* get the two max contracts during his NBA career that would have come along with it..


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> tell me if you see a pattern


this has gotten completely hilarious. and considering how dull and unfunny the oscars were last night, it's been a very entertaining afternoon here at bbb.net.

mizenkay - self-nominated for Best Sleuth


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> I'll put it like this: If his tenure with the Bulls was a setback, and not a lack of superstar talent---then he should sue them because he'll never reach that potential now *and* get the two max contracts during his NBA career that would have come along with it..


I'm not even talking about whether or not he's a superstar talent. Even if he only has at most Jalen Rose talent, his ability to reach that has been severly inhibited by being drafted by the Bulls.

That's mostly his fault for coming out of school as a project. But if he had been a mid 1st Rounder instead of a lottery pick, I think he would have turned out to be a better ball player.

You shouldn't be allowed to draft a project if you're team doesn't have an all-star player on it already.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> You shouldn't be allowed to draft a project if you're team doesn't have an all-star player on it already.


:laugh:


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

Again the answer is Never, lets move on


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## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>E L D R U H M A I</b>!
> With this huge spotlight on him, he's also given more of a chance. It may have been easier to knock him down because he didn't live up to expectation, but he's definitely been given more of a chance than Jamal. Silas himself had a quote about sticking with his best players through thick and thin, whereas we've had these fluctuating patterns with Jamal.


James has just flat out produced. 

Jamal has had his chances. Pax unloaded Rose to give him a chance to be a scorer. 

James got moved from PG to the wing this year just like Jamal.

I don't see that James supporters are using this as an excuse for his play.


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## The 6ft Hurdle (Jan 25, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> James has just flat out produced.
> ...


I'm not even arguing about Jamal being on a level with 'Bronny. I was responding to the notion that 'Bron 'Bron has had it much tougher than Jamal, saying that they've probably had it equally tough maybe with Jamal having it even tougher.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> James has just flat out produced.
> ...


Unless Pax comes out and says this himself, no one can tell me that Rose deal was done so JC could have a chance to do anything...

James played PG a few games, JC's been a PG since day 1, so good try there...

JC is a PG that can score, Lebron is a wing with PG abilities, but he's better on the wings for your team just as JC would be better as a team's PG.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> no one can tell me that Rose deal was done so JC could have a chance to do anything...


That quote is out there.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> That quote is out there.


Find it...


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Find it...


You find it.

Pax said Rose was moved because they thought Jamal was ready to take on more of a scoring role.

As I remember, he screamed out of the gate white hot, then quickly cooled off.


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## mizenkay (Dec 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> You find it.
> ...



well GB, rlucas did call you the king of :





> Best use of articles to support an argument. GB



this thread has gotten out of hand if you ask me which i know ya didn't but whatever...

:laugh:


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## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

if you're all too lazy then fine here's a buncha quotes. 

http://www.miami.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/sports/basketball/7377886.htm

there's actually ammo for both sides. 



> Paxson said the trade also will benefit Jamal Crawford, who will see minutes at shooting guard and will be expected to make up for Rose's scoring loss.


and from Pax and Rose's parting talk, Rose had this to say



> "I have no resentment or hard feelings," said Rose, reached on his cell phone. "I have a lot of love for Chicago. If you're going to make Tyson (Chandler) and Eddy (Curry) the focal points of the future and they deserve that this is a great move.


and of course Pax's definition for the new look Bulls



> "I'll say this forever: I'm trying to build a team, a group of individuals who play together, play hard and are willing to sacrifice on the floor," Paxson said. "I think we acquired some guys who fit that mold. Now I have to try to find some ways to build on that."


now if you're a gm and you truly believe that then you're not going to hand the fate of your team solely on jamal crawford. and i'm a fan. you say something like this then you're expecting chandler, davis, jyd, and hinrich to contribute heavily. so far hinrich is the only one who's stepped up on a consistent effort level. the others have been injured on top of running hot/cold. i'm not even mentioning Curry the one who's had the greatest expectations and has fallen so short so early.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

I'm proud of Jamal tonight.

Slumping yet again, he found ways to help his team.


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## willieblack (Jun 5, 2002)

:yes:


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

the funny thing about the gross generalizations made on this board is how little anyone actually reads the other posters ...i mean sure, people resond ,comment, belittle,argue and discredit.But how many people actually know the other posters stances on things ?

not GB obviously because most of "crawford's crew" talk about his talent but generally believe he is best in a supporting star's role and isn't suited for a team all to his own like t-mac or kobe, in fact out of the arenas, ace truth hurts and whomever else who actually says JC should be the star of the bulls ...most acknowledge he is their best scorer which is why he leads the team in scoring but like the number 2 scorer on the team curry (whom just about everyone on this board feels should be the star of the team) he has holes in his game, glaring ones and even the "JC lovers" say so.

so i say to the starter of this thread where is your proof of this hidden contingent of posters who put JC ahead of the team ? who blindly say JC is the savior and not that guy from that passion movie .

Where?


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> JC is a PG that can score,


Actually, he's a (poor) shooting guard with some PG skills.


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## robert60446 (Nov 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually, he's a (poor) shooting guard with some PG skills.


...very limited PG skills...:laugh:


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>robert60446</b>!
> 
> 
> ...very limited PG skills...:laugh:


I wouldn't say very limited.

Just limited.


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