# The Challenge



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Josh Smith has challenged Luol Deng to play one on one ...and Luol Deng declined...Apparently according to ESPN smith went to N.Carolina with the desire to face Deng anywhere anytime ,.

I was wondering what people think about both Smith's desire , and tactics and deng's refusal to play him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2004/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=1814285ics 

personally i like smith's moxie ...but i am less impressed with deng's apparent back down.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

That kid has some balls...

And all stars do....

If the Clips were to trade down, even though I'm still kinda ? on that, I'd hope we'd take Smith at 6, and either Nelson/Telfair at 17....

Deng can keep *****footing around, he'll fit in with perfectly with the Bulls bunch.


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## truebluefan (May 27, 2002)

Come on, what would you do? A chance to get injured and lose a top three spot? This is the smart thing to do. Very smart. 

You gotta love Smiths attitude, but what if he is not any better? Deng has nothing to prove. Smith might think he does. 

As for Deng fitting in with the Bulls, he might. Just not the way some people think. He could be a nice fit. Defense, can pass. But then there is always the chance that John will trade away any #3 pick he gets for a veteran.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> Come on, what would you do? A chance to get injured and lose a top three spot? This is the smart thing to do. Very smart.
> 
> You gotta love Smiths attitude, but what if he is not any better? Deng has nothing to prove. Smith might think he does.
> ...


its ducking pure and simple . and the part about deng turning him down that will make him look bad is that both he and smith are now going onto workouts at basically the same time...they will be matched up unless deng specifically request it not happen ...how will he look then?

he should have accepted because he cant hide from him and he shouldn't want to ...its not like josh smith is slated not be drafted ...draftcity has deng 3rd and smith 4th and nbadraft.net has deng 3rd and smith 6th cbs sportsline has deng ranked the #1 small forward and smith at #2 insidehoops has deng at #3 and smith at 6 in their mock draft. ...smith is someone deng has to take seriously and avoiding him isn't smart ...in fact by guarding him he could put to doubts his ability to stay with the "top tier" athletes which is said to be a weakness of deng.

a top player is supposed to want greatness and want challenges ...deng is at the moment avoiding them.why would someone want to invest a top 5 pick on that?


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## SecretAgentGuy (Jul 15, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> That kid has some balls...
> 
> And all stars do....
> ...


Although I don't share quite as harsh opinion on Deng, I agree. I really curious to see what's said of Deng once he starts working out for other teams. It seems like he's trying hard to hide something. Could it be that he's a "tweener"?

OTOH I would really love the Bulls to work out Iggy, Deng, Smith and Snyder at the same time and see how those guys do against each other.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

*Josh Smith challenges Luol Deng*

Smith apparently wants a one on one matchup with Luol Deng. His agent said he would cancel any appt, just for Deng to name the time and place. Now, there is more to the game then one on one play, but you absolutely have to love the cahones on this kid. He is putting himself on the line with this. Thats confidence. The ball is in Luols court.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

*Re: Josh Smith challenges Luol Deng*



> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> Smith apparently wants a one on one matchup with Luol Deng. His agent said he would cancel any appt, just for Deng to name the time and place. Now, there is more to the game then one on one play, but you absolutely have to love the cahones on this kid. He is putting himself on the line with this. Thats confidence. The ball is in Luols court.


I can't wait until we workout Josh Smith. The kid has an edge. Jameer Nelson was up to workout with Telfair. Hopefully Deng will do the same with Smith for the Bulls, though I doubt it.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>truebluefan</b>!
> Come on, what would you do? A chance to get injured and lose a top three spot? This is the smart thing to do. Very smart.


Yep.

Stupid stupid stupid by Mr. Smith if he thought this had any chance of working out.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

*Re: Re: Josh Smith challenges Luol Deng*



> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> I can't wait until we workout Josh Smith. The kid has an edge. Jameer Nelson was up to workout with Telfair. Hopefully Deng will do the same with Smith for the Bulls, though I doubt it.


I love it as well. Deng doesnt have to do it, ofcourse, but who does that reflect badly on? 

And Deng is dropping. I have seen 3 mocks now that have him at 4, so his "guaranteed" spot in the top 3 isnt looking so good right now


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Looks like it's working to me.

Of course, it says absolutely nothing about anything, except that he's willing to take the chance. That's a good thing. Maybe Smith can back it up, or maybe he just knows he won't have to.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: Josh Smith challenges Luol Deng*



> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> I can't wait until we workout Josh Smith. The kid has an edge. Jameer Nelson was up to workout with Telfair. Hopefully Deng will do the same with Smith for the Bulls, though I doubt it.


DMD thats one of the sticking points with me jameer nelson a player i am usually not terribly impressed with took on telfair and duhon in port. i believe. all he did improve his standing to me and and talent evaluators around the league. Everyone talks about their drive and competitiveness and talk a good game about how much they believe in themselves and their talent . but how many player show it ?you have to give nelson more props than smith because he not only talked the talk he backed it up.

but in refernce to deng and smith ,this is one of those cases in which josh's words spoke louder than deng's actions.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Josh Smith challenges Luol Deng*



> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> I love it as well. Deng doesnt have to do it, ofcourse, but who does that reflect badly on?
> ...


one of the main reasons he is now going to visit teams now.


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

You guys are giving too much credit to a punk 18 year old kid who has demonstrated his peabrained stupidity and arrogance time and time again. What does this kid actually know? He has been told what he wants to hear time and time again and has no sense of what is professional or appropriate decorum.

Why should Deng listen to this punk? What does he have to prove? He's already proven more at higher levels and has a higher draft status. He doesn't need to waste his time. SMITH IS BENEATH HIM.

You guys are unbelievable getting down on your knees for Smith. I can't believe that immaturity and arrogance is being valued above professionalism and humble confidence.

Every player has the right to market themselves for the draft in the way that best benefits them. Smith has denied Deng that opportunity by backing him into a corner and putting him in a no-win situation. That is classless, playerhating and just stepping on another man's toes. But I would expect nothing less out of a lowlife punk like Smith. This kid's in for a rude awakening in the NBA.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> You guys are giving too much credit to a punk 18 year old kid who has demonstrated his peabrained stupidity and arrogance time and time again. What does this kid actually know? He has been told what he wants to hear time and time again and has no sense of what is professional or appropriate decorum.
> 
> Why should Deng listen to this punk? What does he have to prove? He's already proven more at higher levels and has a higher draft status. He doesn't need to waste his time. SMITH IS BENEATH HIM.
> ...


whoa whoa whoa chibbles mate. Have you seen this kid play? Do you know him personally? He issued a challenge, and your reponse is that he is "beneath" Deng? One guy is listed at 4 and the other guy is listed at 6. That doesnt sound like a big difference to me. Smith is confident. You gotta like that. They both have a lot to lose. But one guy still wants to prove himself. That is a very respectable thing to do


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

> whoa whoa whoa chibbles mate. Have you seen this kid play? Do you know him personally? He issued a challenge, and your reponse is that he is "beneath" Deng? One guy is listed at 4 and the other guy is listed at 6. That doesnt sound like a big difference to me. Smith is confident. You gotta like that. They both have a lot to lose. But one guy still wants to prove himself. That is a very respectable thing to do


I'm sorry but you just don't take a dump in another man's pudding. Period. Deng has done nothing to provoke this, so Smith should leave him out of it and prove what he's got to prove on his own.

And please don't tell me this is confidence. Confidence implies an actual grasp on your abilities. Smith is a stupid, uneducated 18 year old kid who simply has no grasp on thw ways of the world. He just doesn't. Think DMiles or Kwame coming out of HS, only dumber.

Have you seen this kid in an interview? Have you read his quotes? Everything out of his mouth is arrogant and just shows how little he really knows. Again, you give him WAY WAY WAY too much credit.

What would you say if this kid started talking smack about Kobe right now? Would you think that was OK? I understand Deng is not Kobe, but the point is that this kid has done NOTHING to deserve th right to talk smack about ANYONE. That has to be earned, and even then it is an immature thing to do, especially if unprovoked.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm sorry but you just don't take a dump in another man's pudding. Period. Deng has done nothing to provoke this, so Smith should leave him out of it and prove what he's got to prove on his own.
> ...


I havent spoken to him personally, but I have seen him practice and your going way overboard with your name calling and questioning his game. This kid is legit. I know the people at draftcity very well. They know Smith. And they like him. No offense, but Ill go with that they say over what you think this kid is like

He wants to work out against Deng. He is staking his draft status on it. Why is it that everyone works out against someone but Deng doesnt? Is deng above everyone else? Perhaps thats why he is slipping? 

Life is full of challenges. Nothing here is immature.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rlucas4257</b>!
> 
> 
> I havent spoken to him personally, but I have seen him practice and your going way overboard with your name calling and questioning his game. This kid is legit. I know the people at draftcity very well. They know Smith. And they like him. No offense, but Ill go with that they say over what you think this kid is like
> ...


i agree , these are grown men of 19 and they are making the decisions that will shape their lives now . From everything i've heard on smith he has a good head on his shoulders and to me he is using it , the majority will look at him the way most of the people on this thread are as someone taking a good chance on himself , and this is sports nobody likes the guys who runs from a challenge and its not just basketball but sports in general.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> i agree , these are grown men of 19 and they are making the decisions that will shape their lives now . From everything i've heard on smith he has a good head on his shoulders and to me he is using it , the majority will look at him the way most of the people on this thread are as someone taking a good chance on himself , and this is sports nobody likes the guys who runs from a challenge and its not just basketball but sports in general.


100% agree. Couldnt say it better myself. If anything, this little challenge by Smith was smart. He has a 2 in 3 chance of coming out looking good. Deng backs down, which will hurt Deng, Smith could dust Deng in a workout, which would help Smith. Or Smith could get killed by Deng which would hurt his stock. I would say this "punk" is doing a pretty good job putting some light on himself.


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

You guys honestly believe that this "challenge" will affect anyone's draft status? The only thing that stands to happen is that Smith slips because of his immaturity.

Put yourself in the seat of a GM. As a fan you may like to see a challenge like this. If you're a GM, you wonder who this kid is surrounding himself with that would give him this retarded advice.

This is a league of PROFESSIONALS. They are expected to act like it. This is also very much A BUSINESS. This means, that they will act according to their own best interests, in the same way that NFL draft prospects may only run certain drills at the combine.

So the bottom line is, Smith's challenge was pointless because there is NO WAY in a million years Deng would accept the challenge from a business perspective. And that has nothing to do with "backing down from a challenge". It's business, pure and simple. And GMs understand that.

Do you truly think that by Deng not accepting the challenge he is diminished in the eyes of scouts? (And let's be honest, it's only the opinion of one or two that matters anyway) Do you think Paxson is suddenly saying to himself "hmmm, maybe I should take this Smith kid because he has balls and Deng is obviously a wuss"...

Get out of your fantasy world. This is the world of professional sports.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> You guys honestly believe that this "challenge" will affect anyone's draft status? The only thing that stands to happen is that Smith slips because of his immaturity.
> 
> Put yourself in the seat of a GM. As a fan you may like to see a challenge like this. If you're a GM, you wonder who this kid is surrounding himself with that would give him this retarded advice.
> ...


Just a second, so Smith was dumb to do this? Guess who we are talking about today? Hmmmm, Josh Smith. Seems like he is pretty smart to me. Im sure people are saying, why wouldnt Luol Deng workout with Smith? I think your just really wrong about this and its clear you have an ulterior motive.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*In the words of jalen rose*

when he heard his starting point guard was sitting out for as much a mental break as he was for a pyhsical one. 

"It's a man's league"


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> You guys honestly believe that this "challenge" will affect anyone's draft status? The only thing that stands to happen is that Smith slips because of his immaturity.
> --
> Get out of your fantasy world. This is the world of professional sports.


Just ignore them and their fantasy world.

It's not worth the high blood pressure.

Great post.


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

> Just a second, so Smith was dumb to do this? Guess who we are talking about today? Hmmmm, Josh Smith. Seems like he is pretty smart to me. Im sure people are saying, why wouldnt Luol Deng workout with Smith? I think your just really wrong about this and its clear you have an ulterior motive.


Listen, these are players -- not stocks. Smith can create all the buzz he wants for himself in the public forum but it won't change the opinions of GMs.

This challenge only changes perceptions of these players in the eyes of Joe Fan, but for Deng the only guys' opinions that matter are Elgin Baylor and John Paxson. And I don't think they're opinions will change because some 18 year old starts shooting from the hip.

No ulterior motives here. I just view the game a different way than many fans and I'm consistent in the type of players I respect and those I don't. I've been praising Deng for a long time for his maturity and all around game and dissing Smith for a long time because of his attitude and complete lack of basketball skill. I'm also a Hinrich fan and a Crawford hater (big surprise).

So what exactly is my ulterior motive -- you think I'm Deng's agent or something?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Listen, these are players -- not stocks. Smith can create all the buzz he wants for himself in the public forum but it won't change the opinions of GMs.
> ...


so basically you calling someone a punk, when you dont know the first thing about a guy, and immature, and you have no ulterior motive? This kid is anything but what you have said. Ask anyone who knows him, or has seen him play (which I am fairly sure you havent). 

As for Deng, I love the generalizations. I like him. But jeez, was he intelligent before he got to college or just cause he went? It sounds like the typical generalization that college players are "mature" and "intelligent" vs the HSers who are "dumb" and "raw". The typical Pax crap. I mean, Deng is what, a year older then Smith? Wow, he is just worlds older then he is.


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Listen, these are players -- not stocks. Smith can create all the buzz he wants for himself in the public forum but it won't change the opinions of GMs.
> ...


Smackdown.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> 
> Smackdown.


The simple fact that you agree with him should give Chibbles second thoughts on his opinion


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

> so basically you calling someone a punk, when you dont know the first thing about a guy, and immature, and you have no ulterior motive? This kid is anything but what you have said. Ask anyone who knows him, or has seen him play (which I am fairly sure you havent).
> 
> As for Deng, I love the generalizations. I like him. But jeez, was he intelligent before he got to college or just cause he went? It sounds like the typical generalization that college players are "mature" and "intelligent" vs the HSers who are "dumb" and "raw". The typical Pax crap. I mean, Deng is what, a year older then Smith? Wow, he is just worlds older then he is.


I'm calling Smith a punk because I've seen at least 4 interviews with him. The most telling was his interview on OTL where he claimed that the college game couldn't teach him a thing and that he was too good for it. In every other interview (HS allstar games and the like) he just talks about how good he is and how he can be a star right away in the NBA. This kid is deluded. Who exactly do you have going to bat for him? Ive also heard people on this board generically call Qyntel Woods a great kid. Actions speak a lot louder than words, and so far every single sampling I've seen of his personality has shown him to be deluded and immature.

As for Deng, I have several first hand accounts of the type of kid he is straight from people on campus including his former girlfriend. And all you had to do was watch 5 seconds of any interview with him to know his character is of a different breed. I'll bet you didn't know that he FORMALLY ASKED HIS FATHER'S PERMISSION to explore his draft options. If his father had said no, Luol would have abided. Period. It's just the way their culture works.

And by the way, I think you need to learn what an ulterior motive is. It implies that I'd have something to gain from holding this opinion, which I don't. It's just my opinion, take it or leave it.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> I've been praising Deng for a long time for his maturity and all around game and dissing Smith for a long time because of his attitude and complete lack of basketball skill.


Did you watch the National Select Game? If so, how could you possibly say that Josh SMith has a complete lack of basketball skill. He did some skillful things in that game a very small number of NBA players can do.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm calling Smith a punk because I've seen at least 4 interviews with him. The most telling was his interview on OTL where he claimed that the college game couldn't teach him a thing and that he was too good for it. In every other interview (HS allstar games and the like) he just talks about how good he is and how he can be a star right away in the NBA. This kid is deluded. Who exactly do you have going to bat for him? Ive also heard people on this board generically call Qyntel Woods a great kid. Actions speak a lot louder than words, and so far every single sampling I've seen of his personality has shown him to be deluded and immature.
> ...


First off, I think your misquoting Smith big time. Show some quotes and Ill stand corrected, but that isnt the case. 

You want a Smith interview, read what he says on Draftcity. Smith says things like he wants to learn the tricks from the veterans and that will make him a better player. Sounds like an arrogant punk to me  

So, again, Deng is 19, Smith is 18, yet one guys i mature and the other one isnt? cant you see that is a bit of a reach? Your the only person who has questioned the kids maturity. By all accounts, he is a good kid who wants to be a great player. Do you honestly have a problem with that? Or is it a problem with HS players in general?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Did you watch the National Select Game? If so, how could you possibly say that Josh SMith has a complete lack of basketball skill. He did some skillful things in that game a very small number of NBA players can do.


yeah, like play defense, something even Lebron thought he was too good for. What a poor attitude  

as mr spin would say "smackdown"


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

> Did you watch the National Select Game? If so, how could you possibly say that Josh SMith has a complete lack of basketball skill. He did some skillful things in that game a very small number of NBA players can do.


Ah, I chose my words carefully. I said basketball skill, not athletic skill.

There's no doubting that Smith can run, jump, make some sweet dunks and blocks, but there's not a whole lot else to his game yet. I hear scouting reports say he has a nice shot, but I've barely seen it. Though his form is nice enough that I'm sure it will come with time.

His defense, by NBA standards is atrocious. He can't pass. Will take some time to learn how to rebound. Doesn't have the greatest instincts and definitely doesn't seem to understand team play.

So like I said, he is devoid of basketball skill.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Ah, I chose my words carefully. I said basketball skill, not athletic skill.
> ...


yeah, I wonder if FC Barcelona, which is better then anything in the ACC, would agree with you when Smith was shutting Bodriga down and delivering passes to his teammates after penetration.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Ah, I chose my words carefully. I said basketball skill, not athletic skill.
> ...


That crossover he did from the right baseline was one of the most amazing bits of ballhandling I've seen a guy that size do. Dribbling like that requires big time skill. The dunk was just gravy.

Smith was hitting 3's and all kinds of jumpers. That also requires skill.

So please don't dismiss that game, because it was an amazing display of basketball skill. How you can ignore or disagree with this is beyond me.

Tyson Chandler is another ridiculous athlete, but if he had 1/3 of the basketball skills Josh Smith has now, he'd be a young star at his size. But no, he can't shoot, can't dribble, and has no moves. Now that's an athletic guy with no basketball skills.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

around page 38 in the draft thread, there is some Smith video against Barcelona which will show that is not "devoid of basketball skill"

Lets just say that Chibbles has no prob with Smith, but just with HS players in general. And whats sad is that that is majority around these parts


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

I will admit that in the Outside the Lines interview with Smith and Howard, I didn't think Smith was that well spoken. I was not so impressed with his interview, but he seemed to be a pretty good written interview with Draftcity. 

All in all, this does not equate to "stupid punk" to me.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> I will admit that in the Outside the Lines interview with Smith and Howard, I didn't think Smith was that well spoken. I was not so impressed with his interview, but he seemed to be a pretty good written interview with Draftcity.
> 
> All in all, this does not equate to "stupid punk" to me.


I mean, Shaq sounds stupid too and I dont think anyone would say he isnt a smart player. Rodman couldnt put together a sentence, but was one of the smartest players of the last decade. I wouldnt put to much stock into it. Its kind of like the LB in the movie The Program. You dont have to be a genius to be a good player, or even a smart player


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

> First off, I think your misquoting Smith big time. Show some quotes and Ill stand corrected, but that isnt the case.


You can do the research, I'm sure you can find the OTL transcript somewhere. I'm not misquoting (or mis-paraphrasing) him. It wasn't just what came out of his mouth but also the tone of his comments, as if he actually believed he was just too good for the college game.



> You want a Smith interview, read what he says on Draftcity. Smith says things like he wants to learn the tricks from the veterans and that will make him a better player. Sounds like an arrogant punk to me


If I recall this interview correctly (too lazy to look it up right now) you are taking it out of context to support your point. He was asked, I believe, about his willingness to play in a minor league system rather than sit at the end of an NBA bench. He basically said he was too good for that and supported his opinion by saying he could learn more from NBA veterans. I don't think he was heaping praise on vets so much as he was building his own case.



> So, again, Deng is 19, Smith is 18, yet one guys i mature and the other one isnt? cant you see that is a bit of a reach? Your the only person who has questioned the kids maturity. By all accounts, he is a good kid who wants to be a great player. Do you honestly have a problem with that? Or is it a problem with HS players in general?


What the hell does age mean? Seriously? Maturity is defined by much more than age, including but not limited to parenting, culture, background, education, personal influences.

Take a look at the two personalities and tell me these kids aren't a world apart in maturity. I honestly don't know what you're going off of to think Smith IS mature.

And can you honestly tell me that Deng doesn't strike you as impressively mature for his age? Most kids talk about NBA dreams in interviews, he's talking about international politics and the importance of education in his culture. His dad is a Sudanese diplomat, former minister of transportation, and this kid was a world traveller by age 10. He has a very worldly perspective for a 19 year old and was raised with very strong values. There are tons of articles out there about him, try reading just one.

I've got no beef with HS players, especially those who prove to be mature and well-informed people. I threw my full support behind Lebron's, Kobe's and Howard's decision to make the jump because they showed they had the head on their shoulders to handle it.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> 
> 
> You can do the research, I'm sure you can find the OTL transcript somewhere. I'm not misquoting (or mis-paraphrasing) him. It wasn't just what came out of his mouth but also the tone of his comments, as if he actually believed he was just too good for the college game.
> ...


so now 4 interviews turns into one OTL interview? And now it wasnt what he said, but the tone in which he said it? And he is a "stupid punk". I saw the interview. I agree with DMD, he wasnt well spoken. Neither was Hall of Famers like Moses Malone, Shaquille Oneal or heck, even Larry Bird. 

As for maturity, guess who else talks about international politics? Adonal Foyle. I guess that makes him a great player? Smith hasnt lived at home for a couple of years. Neither is Deng. Its one year. So one guy went from Sudan to Duke. the other went from Atlanta to VA. I guess you can tell alot about a person based on that? 

What you forget to mention is that, at NBA High, people there say Smith is as ready as anyone they have ever had. But what do they know? The kid is only a "stupid punk" who is "devoid of basketball skill"


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Look, I think Josh Smith has an ego, and a big one. But that doesn't mean he's not coachable. I've never heard anything like that about him or any coaches complain about him. Hell, I want my players to have an ego, an edge. Jay Williams had an edge and I loved that too. Hinrich has got an edge. They all have a different way of going about it. My guess is that Smith is not as well educated as those guys, but that doesn't mean he won't be a great pro baller or teammate. I think you read in too much to certain comments.

Yes, I think Deng is an exceptional young man, and I will be very optimistic if we draft him too. But like others on this board, I wouldn't be surprised if Smith not only has a better career but a better rookie year. I am not sure of this, but I like Josh Smith slightly better as a prospect.


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

rlucas, not sure if you are actually questioning Deng's maturity or just playing devil's advocate, but if you really don't know his story read this article.

Sure there's a lot of fluffy pieces out there, but if you believe half of what's written, you can still see just how mature a kid he is.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/charlotte/sports/colleges/7268005.htm?1c


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> Look, I think Josh Smith has an ego, and a big one. But that doesn't mean he's not coachable. I've never heard anything like that about him or any coaches complain about him. Hell, I want my players to have an ego, an edge. Jay Williams had an edge and I loved that too. Hinrich has got an edge. They all have a different way of going about it. My guess is that Smith is not as well educated as those guys, but that doesn't mean he won't be a great pro baller or teammate. I think you read in too much to certain comments.
> 
> Yes, I think Deng is an exceptional young man, and I will be very optimistic if we draft him too. But like others on this board, I wouldn't be surprised if Smith not only has a better career but a better rookie year. I am not sure of this, but I like Josh Smith slightly better as a prospect.


Great point. I mean, how many players are truly great players who have no ego? Not too many. Kobe Bryant wouldnt be anywhere near the player he is today if he didnt think he was Gods Gift to the Planet. In fact, on this Bulls team, ego is something this club needs. and a guy who can back it up. I dont believe Kirk, Curry or JC have much of an ego. Sometimes they talk a big game, but none of those guys has that jump on my back and ill take you home attitude or game to go with it. This kid not only has that, but he wants it.


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

> Look, I think Josh Smith has an ego, and a big one. But that doesn't mean he's not coachable. I've never heard anything like that about him or any coaches complain about him. Hell, I want my players to have an ego, an edge. Jay Williams had an edge and I loved that too. Hinrich has got an edge. They all have a different way of going about it. My guess is that Smith is not as well educated as those guys, but that doesn't mean he won't be a great pro baller or teammate. I think you read in too much to certain comments.
> 
> Yes, I think Deng is an exceptional young man, and I will be very optimistic if we draft him too. But like others on this board, I wouldn't be surprised if Smith not only has a better career but a better rookie year. I am not sure of this, but I like Josh Smith slightly better as a prospect.


Let's get something straight. I DO think Smith will become a good player, despite his shortcomings in character. I just think he is in for a rude awakening, and I also think his bandwagoners will be surprised how exploited he will be by the NBA at first. It will take him some time to begin producing.

So it's not that I think he's a bad talent, just that he's inferior to Deng. And more importantly, that even if he were superior, he just has no right to go out and issue a challenge like that. When have you ever heard of someone doing that? It's just not the respectable thing to do.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> rlucas, not sure if you are actually questioning Deng's maturity or just playing devil's advocate, but if you really don't know his story read this article.
> 
> Sure there's a lot of fluffy pieces out there, but if you believe half of what's written, you can still see just how mature a kid he is.
> ...


I have never said once Deng was not mature. His story is great. His family gets mentioned in the London press every now and then for Sudanese rights. However, and this is the point you dont get, is because Deng escaped genocide in Sudan that must mean that Smiths life is any less so developed. I am sure you dont know the first thing about Smiths life growing up or what not. To say Deng is more mature because he went to Duke doesnt take into account that Smith actually has been away from home for a couple of years. Neither guy is immature.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Let's get something straight. I DO think Smith will become a good player, despite his shortcomings in character. I just think he is in for a rude awakening, and I also think his bandwagoners will be surprised how exploited he will be by the NBA at first. It will take him some time to begin producing.
> ...


"shortcomings in character" 

Do you have any proof of anything? has he had a run in with the law? Is he a bad student? You make it sound like this guy is Ronnie Fields. And frankly, your so off base here, its gotten beyond funny


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

> Great point. I mean, how many players are truly great players who have no ego? Not too many. Kobe Bryant wouldnt be anywhere near the player he is today if he didnt think he was Gods Gift to the Planet. In fact, on this Bulls team, ego is something this club needs. and a guy who can back it up. I dont believe Kirk, Curry or JC have much of an ego. Sometimes they talk a big game, but none of those guys has that jump on my back and ill take you home attitude or game to go with it. This kid not only has that, but he wants it.


Nothing wrong with having a healthy ego, but arrogance is another thing. To have an ego and be that public about it, you had better be able to back it up, and right now Smith hasn't proven he can.

And frankly, it's smart practice for any incoming rookie to shut their mouths and let their play do the talking. I don't care if you're coming out of HS or you just won 4 straight NCAA titles, you better check your ego at the door before you step into the NBA. The right to have an ego is earned, not given to you by your agents and hangers-on.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Nothing wrong with having a healthy ego, but arrogance is another thing. To have an ego and be that public about it, you had better be able to back it up, and right now Smith hasn't proven he can.
> ...



where exactly has he been arrogant? So you supported Lebron, driving a Humvee but this kid is arrogant? Dare I say double standard?


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

If Deng doesn't work out and accept challenges from players who are supposedly lesser players than him, then quite honestly my crap-dar will start bleeping. It raises all sorts of questions -- if Deng is worth the third pick and is a better prospect than Smith, then what has he got to fear? Not working out with the guy essentially says he has doubts whether he'd perform well, because if he is indeed worthy of a top pick than he should be able to demonstrate it. He has nothing to lose (if he is indeed worth a higher pick, that is), and the other arguments contrary all seem like rationalization and snow-jobbing. In my mind at least.

And a lesser question to be raised is Deng's personality -- if he balks at a challenge like this, to me it suggests that he does not have a very competitive attiude. Ideally you want the guy to take no prisoners and be confident enough to just go out there and prove himself.


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

> "shortcomings in character"
> 
> Do you have any proof of anything? has he had a run in with the law? Is he a bad student? You make it sound like this guy is Ronnie Fields. And frankly, your so off base here, its gotten beyond funny


Your eye rolls are getting a little tiresome. Doesn't make me feel one iota worse about my opinion.

Perhaps I should have said "shortcomings in maturity" to be more appropos. I'm not saying this kid is going to break the law or anything like that, just that he has an attitude that will be a detriment to his god-given abilities and his potential for success in the league.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Your eye rolls are getting a little tiresome. Doesn't make me feel one iota worse about my opinion.
> ...


when you say something that can be supported by fact, then the eye rollings will stop. Your attacking of his character with really no proof is really beyond irresponsible. You cant prove that the kid immature, or arrogant. He has an ego. Guess what? The great ones do. Again I ask, you support Lebron, who was as arrogant as anyone, yet this kid is a punk?


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

> where exactly has he been arrogant? So you supported Lebron, driving a Humvee but this kid is arrogant? Dare I say double standard?


I've just told you about ten times, he was arrogant in his interviews. He claims to be above college hoops, above minor league hoops, says he can be a star right away. ARROGANT.

You didn't hear things like this come out of Lebron as a HSer and you barely hear him toot his own horn now. I don't know what a hummer has to do with arrogance.

Do I have to break out the dictionary again and define another word for you?


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> 
> 
> I've just told you about ten times, he was arrogant in his interviews. He claims to be above college hoops, above minor league hoops, says he can be a star right away. ARROGANT.
> ...


so now its back to 4 interviews? I have yet to hear him say that he would be a star right away. Do you know what misquoting means? 

He claims that he can get more out of the NBA game then college. Guess what? He is right probably. His reasoning for not wanting to play in a minor league is totally legit. He wants to learn from the vets. Whats so wrong, or arrogant about that? But isnt here where your beef is? Prejudice against HS and international players is what limits teams to mediocrity. its quite clear, if Deng were coming out of HS and Smith was coming out of Duke, youd be arguing the other way. I cant think of any other reason.


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## Robert23 (Dec 3, 2003)

To start off with it isn't Deng or Smith setting up these workouts to start with. Their agents are the ones making the decisions to get them drafted as high as possible. So this has nothing to do with who is arrogant or afraid. It is who has more to loose. Their agents are smart and know what they are doing. Smith has little to loose if he were to get beat in a one on one with Deng because he isn't considered as far along to start with. Thats why he's ranked anywhere from 9th to 6th as compared to Deng's 4th to 2nd. Deng's in a loose loose situation. If he doesn't play him then people wonder why but if he does he could loose his ranking in the draft regardless if he has a bad day. Or maybe he really isn't as good as Smith. It's simple economics on their agents part nothing more. This is why I think the NBA should mandate all draft entries go to one workout camp together. If you want a job with the NBA then you go to the workout otherwise have fun playing in Europe.


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

> so now its back to 4 interviews? I have yet to hear him say that he would be a star right away. Do you know what misquoting means?
> 
> He claims that he can get more out of the NBA game then college. Guess what? He is right probably. His reasoning for not wanting to play in a minor league is totally legit. He wants to learn from the vets. Whats so wrong, or arrogant about that? But isnt here where your beef is? Prejudice against HS and international players is what limits teams to mediocrity. its quite clear, if Deng were coming out of HS and Smith was coming out of Duke, youd be arguing the other way. I cant think of any other reason.


Get over it, there is no agenda here. I hold no prejudices and judge each player on a case by case basis.

I may have a bias for college talents, if only because I have seen so many become underrated in the draft only to flourish in the NBA, and contribute quickly. Boozer, Jefferson and Arenas come to mind most immediately.

If I think a HS player is special I will be forthright in saying it. I believe Howard is special. I believe Livingston will be special with time. I believe Smith is the most physically gifted and will become a very productive player. I can't say he will be special because I don't see it in his character. I put him in the Antoine Walker/Darius Miles/Lamar Odom (the early years) bin. Hey, who knows, maybe one day he can turn it around like Odom did. If he does, more power to him. That's just not a gamble I'd be especially eager to take.

Listen, my bias against Smith is very simple. I base it on what I've seen. Most of these HS kids are at least smart enough, or surrounded by smart enough people, to say the right things in an interview. It worries me that Smith consistently says the wrong thing. And trust me when I say, it's not just what he says, but how he says it. His dismissiveness towards anything but the NBA is a huge turnoff. I'm not saying he shouldn't think he belongs in the league, I'm saying that he should at least have the courtesy, respect or common sense to phrase his answers in a less dismissive, more diplomatic way. He should be showing respect, but all I get out of him his attitude.

Contrast that with Howard, who only shows respect, even if he too is a little misguided and naive.


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## rlucas4257 (Jun 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> 
> 
> Get over it, there is no agenda here. I hold no prejudices and judge each player on a case by case basis.
> ...


You clearly havent seen any of his game so what else are you basing it on? And where did he show a lack of respect? You talk a big game with no evidence to back it up? This is what he said, He said I think I can learn more from the vets. Where is that disrespectful. 

What do you want him to say? "Im going to the NBA even though I am not ready and am fully prepared to sit on the bench for 3 years". Well, a respectful comment like that would set off alarm bells. again, the great ones dont worry about who they are showing respect for. I remember one Kobe Bryant every bit as brash as this kid, probably more so. As for Howard, Mr Holyness, seems to be a kid with not enough focus on the game. I know Mr Punk will be in the gym, Howard might be at church. Where would you rather have your player at?

some have said Smith isnt ready. Tell that to the kids he dominated at Hoop Summit or FC Barcelona who he played against in an exhibition or the people at NBA HS who say he is every bit as good as anyone they have ever had. These are people who know his game, and KNOW THE MAN. Ill go with what they say, not basing it on some kind of tone that you think you might have heard in 1 or 4 interviews. 

So you have no agenda, and then in the next sentence, you say your biased towards college players. Well, duh.


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

> You clearly havent seen any of his game so what else are you basing it on? And where did he show a lack of respect? You talk a big game with no evidence to back it up? This is what he said, He said I think I can learn more from the vets. Where is that disrespectful.
> 
> What do you want him to say? "Im going to the NBA even though I am not ready and am fully prepared to sit on the bench for 3 years". Well, a respectful comment like that would set off alarm bells. again, the great ones dont worry about who they are showing respect for. I remember one Kobe Bryant every bit as brash as this kid, probably more so. As for Howard, Mr Holyness, seems to be a kid with not enough focus on the game. I know Mr Punk will be in the gym, Howard might be at church. Where would you rather have your player at?


Listen I get your point that the great ones have this "je ne sais quoi". That's not what I see from Smith. Far from it.

As for that church comment, I can only hope you're joking. Or else you are showing the limits of your thinking.

(Let's not forget of course that Howard is the one with the gym rat habits, 5 am wakeups and an understanding of how to impose discipline in his life. Haven't heard anything of the sort about Smith.)



> some have said Smith isnt ready. Tell that to the kids he dominated at Hoop Summit or FC Barcelona who he played against in an exhibition or the people at NBA HS who say he is every bit as good as anyone they have ever had. These are people who know his game, and KNOW THE MAN. Ill go with what they say, not basing it on some kind of tone that you think you might have heard in 1 or 4 interviews.


Oh yeah? What did they say? If they KNOW THE MAN, I bet they are heaping tons of personal praise on him, right?



> So you have no agenda, and then in the next sentence, you say your biased towards college players. Well, duh.


An agenda would imply, once again, that I have something to gain. What exactly am I gaining by arguing with you into the wee hours?

And I said I held no prejudice, just a bias. Know the difference.

Prejudice would imply I judged him prior to having anything to base it on. Bias only means I may have a tendency to lean a certain way.

I hate Will Smith. If I were prejudiced I would hate him because he was black. In reality, I hate him because he sucks. You could say I am biased against annoying, self-righteous, self-promoting, cheesy rappers.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Hey now!

I happen to be an annoying, self-righteous, self-promoting, cheesy rapper.

Did I say annoying?


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

All of the BS and Hyperbole aside...after hearing how confident Smith is I now officially would take him over Deng.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> Contrast that with Howard, who only shows respect, even if he too is a little misguided and naive.


And while we're on that issue, I'm not too fond of Mr. Howard's mission from god and his desire to add a cross to the NBA logo. I'm sure he's a good hearted kid, and he seems pretty smart and well spoken, but that doesn't mean I like what he stands for with regards to the role of religion in the NBA.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> And while we're on that issue, I'm not too fond of Mr. Howard's mission from god and his desire to add a cross to the NBA logo. I'm sure he's a good hearted kid, and he seems pretty smart and well spoken, but that doesn't mean I like what he stands for with regards to the role of religion in the NBA.


Blasphemy!!!!


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

1. I'll bet Jerome James could demolish Jason Kidd one-on-one. Who would you rather have on your team? 

1-on-1's are meaningless. They aren't really any indication of how you can help an NBA team. I think a free throw shooting contest or a 3-point shooting contest would reveal more about their games, and actually, I'd be more disappointed if Deng backed down from one of those.

2. What ChiBulls seems to be saying (with which I somewhat agree) is that issuing a challenge of a one-on-one is an immature thing to do, personality-wise. Now there ARE a lot of great and talented players out there, personality-wise, but as far as I'm concerned, they had better be the absolute best at what they do. There's a reason why Antoine Walker's not so tradeable. 

This doesn't have to do as much with arrogance as it does with maturity. Talking big about the league when you've not been there yet is simply not adviseable. Josh Smith is the kind of kid that would never say "I don't know" or want to ever sound dubious, but would rather talk himself into a hole. 

I think as a publicity stunt, Smith's idea was great and I will respect that in terms of being a businessperson. He's got nothing to lose if he knows that Deng won't play him. This entire thread is a perfect example: at the end of the day, Deng is still around 3 and Smith is still around 6. Now we know that Deng doesn't bite at personal challenges and we know that Smith has some fire in him. Those are just tiny factors to be considered, worth about 1% of the decision-making process.

3. I will go out on a limb, now, and say that I wouldn't want a cocky kid like that on the Bulls. Not just yet. The simple reason is that Skiles and Pax have not completely bought into his act, and in order for Smith to be a successful basketball player, he needs his team to buy into him, to really believe in him. In this way, he is like Steve Francis, except I'd have to say somewhat less skilled (he seems skilled when I saw him, but Francis was supremely uber-skilled when he entered the league).

I'd rather have Deng than Smith because Skiles and Paxson would try to BREAK Smith and that would never end up good. We need a hard-working young talent that can contribute right away and continue to be committed to extreme improvement. Smith seems to give the impression that he wants to get into the league, and the learning will naturally come.

Every successful high school player that's made the jump has had to put in the work, big time. Amare is a basketball creature, one whose life is day and night, 100% basketball, even to the point where family gets pushed aside for basketball. Because of that, I knew he'd explode in the NBA. KG and Kobe are the hardest workers you can find. T-Mac and Jermaine had to be humble bench guys for two or three seasons, endlessly going at it in practice after practice and waiting their turn.

What happens when you get really talented high schoolers that don't actively make the extra effort to improve? You get guys like Eddy Curry, who quite honestly, hasn't added anything substantial to his game since he entered the league. In the worst case scenario, you get Leon Smith's.

I don't know whether I buy into Josh Smith or not, but I know for a fact that Paxson and Skiles don't seem sold. They have to give him unconditional license to make a lot of mistakes in a lot of playing time, and I don't think they are willing to do that. 

We just don't know how to handle young talent that aren't self-motivated. We need self-starters, people that look to improve individually and have a burning drive to propel them forward, a la Kirk Hinrich.

Josh Smith resembles these attributes much less than Luol Deng does.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
> 1. I'll bet Jerome James could demolish Jason Kidd one-on-one. Who would you rather have on your team?
> 
> 1-on-1's are meaningless. They aren't really any indication of how you can help an NBA team. I think a free throw shooting contest or a 3-point shooting contest would reveal more about their games, and actually, I'd be more disappointed if Deng backed down from one of those.
> ...


I don't assume that because he's very confident in his abilities that his next NBA coach will have trouble with him and/or that his team will not buy into him. I think that's a reach. My question would be "who has talked bad stuff about him? has he caused problems where he's been?" I've heard nothing negative about him.

It was also very clear to me when I read the Draftcity interview that the kid has a humble side too.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> And while we're on that issue, I'm not too fond of Mr. Howard's mission from god and his desire to add a cross to the NBA logo. I'm sure he's a good hearted kid, and he seems pretty smart and well spoken, but that doesn't mean I like what he stands for with regards to the role of religion in the NBA.


I didn't know he stood for anything in terms of religion's role in the NBA. The First Amendment (with the 14th Amendment) guarantees freedom of expression, religion, and assembly. I respect very much that he stands for what he believes in and uses almost every opportunity he has in the public eye to promote his beliefs. Bono from U2 does the same thing with whatever humanitarian cause he's promoting at the moment, and Michael Chang (and several other athletes) constantly give thanks to God in almost any sentence they get on TV.

In other words, it's still a free country  

Integrating the cross into the NBA logo is a different story, and that might seem a little extreme, but come on. It's not like Dwight Howard will ever really have the power to do that. Believe in democracy; if such a strange thing were ever to happen, it would be with the approval of Jerry West, the National Basketball Association, the coaches union, the players union, the major TV networks... you get the picture. It is extremely improbable.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
> 
> 
> I didn't know he stood for anything in terms of religion's role in the NBA. The First Amendment (with the 14th Amendment) guarantees freedom of expression, religion, and assembly. I respect very much that he stands for what he believes in and uses almost every opportunity he has in the public eye to promote his beliefs. Bono from U2 does the same thing with whatever humanitarian cause he's promoting at the moment, and Michael Chang (and several other athletes) constantly give thanks to God in almost any sentence they get on TV.
> ...


Look, if Dwight wants to praise god when he is interviewed, that's fine, he is free to talk about what inspires him. If he wants to try to convert people in his locker room, well, that's his right to try that too, and he may meet some acceptance and some resistance.

But the cross on the logo thing is too much. Obviously it will never happen, but even the suggested idea bothers me. And yes, having a cross on the logo would increase the role of religion in the NBA, in that the NBA would be endorsing one religion. This is Dwight's vision, realistic or not. It makes me uncomfortable. The NBA has religious people in it, but it is not and it is not supposed to be a religious institution.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't assume that because he's very confident in his abilities that his next NBA coach will have trouble with him and/or that his team will not buy into him. I think that's a reach. My question would be "who has talked bad stuff about him? has he caused problems where he's been?" I've heard nothing negative about him.
> ...


Yeah, I haven't heard anything negative about "character" in terms of him being a rapist or a druggie. In terms of that stuff, I have nothing to judge him by.

But on the Bulls, I just wouldn't want anyone that headstrong if the organization wasn't going to throw all their weight behind him. That's what they did for Jay Williams, and though he struggled, I think he was kind of self-humbled by his own failures and it pushed him to work harder. Last I heard of him in the offseason, he was really working hard and a lot of us were really high on his game before the accident. He did still manage like 5 assists a game, leading his rookie class.

I think the other thing is that I've only seen Josh Smith play like twice, and not against NBA-level competition. He can shut down high school kids on D, that's a good step, but in the interview with draftcity, there was a "long pause" before he said that he'd have to work on it. TRACY MCGRADY.

If he's that good, then that's fine, but I'm with ChiBulls in saying that he's probably in for a rude awakening. How he reacts to that awakening will probably be the first test of his true character. If he does turn around, get super motivated, and start working out like nuts to improve and actualize his huge potential, then that's great. Smith might be the best player in the draft.

But if he doesn't, or if it takes him a while, or if he isn't in the right environment or isn't well coached or doesn't have a mentor... then we'll have a bit of a problem. 

The best team to draft Josh Smith, honestly, is probably Toronto at number 8. If he can learn under Vince Carter and Jalen Rose and make a McGrady-like tutelage there, Smith may rise very very high. Depending on who they get to coach the team, there may be huge things in store for Smith in that type of situation.

The worst team to draft him is Chicago. We don't have anyone to tutor him, and we have a horrible record with developing less mature talent. We need a few more Hinrich-like guys, and a few more wins in our win record (more than a few) before we can take on extremely talented but less mature talent.

I'm not averse to high schoolers; obviously, quite a few of them have succeeded. I am averse to high schoolers in Chicago; it just doesn't seem that we're good at taking guys that aren't 100% ready to play. We need rookies that can play like vets, because we just plain suck at developing talent.


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## Clutch (Jun 2, 2004)

I know if it was me and someone challenged me like that I would play him in a second.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Look, if Dwight wants to praise god when he is interviewed, that's fine, he is free to talk about what inspires him. If he wants to try to convert people in his locker room, well, that's his right to try that too, and he may meet some acceptance and some resistance.
> ...


That's what I'm saying too. It's not, and won't ever be. If it ever becomes that way, it will only be because every single person whose opinion matters agrees that it should be, and that's extremely highly improbable.

This means that when we talk about getting a cross on the logo, we think not of what that might mean to the NBA, because it probably won't amount to much, but we should think of Dwight Howard and what that means about him as a player. 

And my final conclusion, unless he has some kind of weird 1-man lock-out until he sees a cross on a logo, is that Dwight Howard the basketball player is simply a fervent believer in what he believes in, and hopefully that kind of quiet determination translates on the basketball court.

In other words, DMD, if you don't agree with Howard's stance, you have nothing to worry about because obviously, you're not alone.


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## superdave (Jul 16, 2002)

Sorry I'm too lazy to read through the first 5 pages of this thread but....

To me its pretty cool that Smith offered a challenge. I mean, my God, this doesn't happen all that often (publically) and kudos to Josh for doing so. In 2001 they were lining up the HS big men like cattle and letting them go at it. Why can't we do the same with 2 of the top 3 SF prospects in this draft?


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Clutch</b>!
> I know if it was me and someone challenged me like that I would play him in a second.


Would you really? Knowing that you have more than $4 million over 3 years to lose and absolutely nothing to gain? 

Not to reduce Deng to a money-grubber or anything like that, but jeez. $4 million is a LOT of money. 

Also, Deng PREFERS Chicago. So let's say you were Deng. Would you put your preferred city of choice and $4 million on the line with absolutely nothing to gain, knowing that your acceptance probably only puts credence into a competition that does not signify anything??

If Smith issued a challenge to work out with Deng, that's a different story. But to play him one-on-one? It hardly even means anything to NBA scouts, but Deng's acceptance would MAKE it mean something.


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

Showtyme, thanks for offering some excellent posts on this subject. Somebody had to be the voice of reason on this one....

Since the discussion has shifted focus back and forth between the maturity levels of 18 and 19 year olds with respect to Smith, Howard and Deng, I'd like to pitch in my two cents.

I think we often give these young guys too much credit as savvy adults with legitimate real-world decision making capabilities. Think about yourself as an 18 year old. I think back on things I would say, or things I was clueless about, or even words in my everyday vocabulary now that were a mystery to me then. My thinking, analytical and critical decision-making skills were very poorly developed at that point. The thing is, back then, I thought I knew everything.

Now at 24 I know a hell of a lot more than I knew then, but only now have the maturity to realize just how little I really do know and how much more I have to learn.

These 18 year old kids simply haven't had the life experience to understand this fact about themselves.

From what Smith has said, he sounds convinced that the NBA is going to be cake for someone of his ability. He is in for a rude awakening. Some of you may like that he talks the talk, but until he walks the walk his words are meaningless. And if you put those words in perspective realizing that he is only 18 and has been told what he wants to hear his whole life, you realize that this kid is simply naive. Now is he naturally a bad kid? No. But the fact that he is so naive and (I can only assume) not surrounded by the right people makes for a dangerous combination. This kid is more susceptible to failure than he realizes and he's in for a rude awakening in the NBA.

Howard is naive in a different regard. While certainly well-intentioned, he is EXTREMELY naive with respect to religion. He has been so inculcated with these religious beliefs that he lacks a basic regard for other religions. I mean, he literally thinks he can just walk in a lockerroom and convert people, and try to get a cross on the NBA logo. This shows a complete lack of understanding the way the world works, that if he wishes to get his message across he needs to choose a more appropriate path. Now as I said, he is well-intentioned, and so long as he is surrounded with good people (ones who are not of the same deep religious conviction), he will learn how to conduct himself without stepping on others toes.

Deng is a somewhat of a contrast to the others, but also shares some similarities. He has seen a lot and been through a lot in his 19 years and is therefore more mature than a typical 19 year old. He has a much broader perpective and worldview. He is also from a different culture that stresses different values. One such value is deference to elders. As I mentioned before, he had to formally ask his father for permission to enter the draft. In fact, few decisions are made without deferring to elders. This has bred a certain naivety in him with respect to his own abilities. In the beginning of the college season, he was constantly deferring to his older teammates and trying to "just fit in" rather than play to his ability. By the end of the year (after getting chewed out by Coach K more than a few times) he finally began to be more assertive and people finally saw what he was capable of. Coach K talked glowingly about Deng's impassioned halftime speech when Duke was losing to Xavier in which Deng implored the team to play "outside of itself." This was a huge step for a kid who was so reluctant to assume a leadership role even though his teammates looked to him to provide it. But it is this reluctance to dominate or be the man that I think may hold him back a bit in the beginning of his NBA career.

In the end, we need to apply some perspective to these kids. They are so young and so naive about so many things still. Just imagine if you began working at your current job at age 18 -- you'd probably get eaten alive. So take these kids comments with a grain of salt. Give them little credence. Howard doesn't know it yet, but he doesn't really want to put a cross in the NBA logo. In a few years he will laugh at himself for ever saying that. Smith's challenge was not a sign of greatness, he will soon realize. It was a sign of brashness and youthful arrogance. Deng will soon learn that to be successful he is going to have to believe in his ability and trust his own instincts rather than looking above him for answers. These kids are young, but hopefully with time, they will figure these things out and all will be successful.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
> 
> 
> Would you really? Knowing that you have more than $4 million over 3 years to lose and absolutely nothing to gain?
> ...


but like i said before unless deng specifically avoids smith the top small forwards are going to be scheduled in workouts at the same time, not just smith will play deng but childress and iggy too, they will all play each other one on one at some point in frnt of GM's scouts and coaches ...it shouldn't be avoided by deng , it should be embraced.


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## ChiBullsFan (May 30, 2002)

> but like i said before unless deng specifically avoids smith the top small forwards are going to be scheduled in workouts at the same time, not just smith will play deng but childress and iggy too, they will all play each other one on one at some point in frnt of GM's scouts and coaches ...it shouldn't be avoided by deng , it should be embraced.


I think your understanding of workouts is a bit off base. It is not traditional for the higher draft picks to work out against other prospects. The few cases I can think of where higher picks worked out against other guys were either guys who were projected much lower or HSers (the infamous Tyson-Kwame matchup).

Deng, Okafor, Gordon, Howard and maybe a few others will never see a gym at the same time as any other prospects.


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## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> its ducking pure and simple . and the part about deng turning him down that will make him look bad is that both he and smith are now going onto workouts at basically the same time...they will be matched up unless deng specifically request it not happen ...how will he look then?
> ...


Happygrinch and I rarely see eye to eye.

We do in this case.:yes:


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## MongolianDeathCloud (Feb 27, 2004)

In the Duke Chronicle today, it was posted that after Charlotte refused to go to Duke to do a workout, Luol and Aldo (his father) are looking for an agent now asap (according to Aldo).

So I think it's clear that this timid approach to workouts is not going to fly with teams -- Deng is just not that good, and he will have to workout with peers like everyone else. And the fact that he doesn't have an agent means that he's probably a little confused now at what he should do regarding Smith, so I take back any premature judgements I may have made and reserve them for later.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ChiBullsFan</b>!
> 
> 
> You guys are unbelievable getting down on your knees for Smith. I can't believe that immaturity and arrogance is being valued above professionalism and humble confidence.


That's the main difference between today's NBA and the NBA of the 80's and before. I listened to an interview by Rick Barry today, and he went on about this subject. He explained that he wasn't a fan of Gary Payton because he dominates the ball so much, and when he doesn't (see: Lakers) he isn't nearly as effective and seems to complain about it.

And for you young'ns, Rick Barry is one of the greatest players to ever pick up a basketball. He was a 12-time All-Star and named the Finals MVP after putting the underdog Warriors on his back in 1975 in sweeping the Bullets in four games, scored over 25,000 points during his career, was one of the most clutch players in the history of the sport. He's also firmly planted on the Top 50 players of all time list. He knows what he's talking about.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> 
> 
> That's the main difference between today's NBA and the NBA of the 80's and before. I listened to an interview by Rick Barry today, and he went on about this subject. He explained that he wasn't a fan of Gary Payton because he dominates the ball so much, and when he doesn't (see: Lakers) he isn't nearly as effective and seems to complain about it.
> ...


is this the same rick barry that says to anyone that will listen that scottie pippen does not belong on the nba's top 50?

Being a great basketball player 30 years ago does not make you an expert athletes of today...why isn't he a fan 2 of the better defenders of the last 20 years ...


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> is this the same rick barry that says to anyone that will listen that scottie pippen does not belong on the nba's top 50?


Yes. Apparently, the man has an opinion on things. I like opinions, even if I don't agree with them. I especially like opinions from certifiable experts.



> Being a great basketball player 30 years ago does not make you an expert athletes of today...


Is he more of an expert than you are? I'd wager he is. Does he not have two sons that play in the NBA right now? Does he somehow not watch basketball or participate in various aspects of its business anymore? Is he completely ignorant of today's game?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> 
> 
> Yes. Apparently, the man has an opinion on things. I like opinions, even if I don't agree with them. I especially like opinions from certifiable experts.
> ...


he has his views , and they are opinions...not facts and just because i dont agree with him doesn't make him right and me wrong ...there are just as many people who are in the business of basketball, who also do watch basketball who have a completely different opinion of the nba athlete?

do you question them too ...or do you believe that his thoughts are the only thoughts thats anyone assosiated in the world of the nba have ?


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> he has his views , and they are opinions...not facts and just because i dont agree with him doesn't make him right and me wrong ...


Exactly. So why did you attempt to discredit Barry's opinions immediately after I posted them?



> do you question them too ...or do you believe that his thoughts are the only thoughts thats anyone assosiated in the world of the nba have ?


Ad hominem hyperbole is never good for bolstering an argument.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Vega vs. The Grinch has produced some nice cage match type material over the past couple weeks


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## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

For the record .. I for one am impressed by Smith's call on Deng although I understand why Deng would decline 

Got to love that agressiveness and killer instinct .. a quality sorely lacking from our team in recent years 

I give the kid props .. he's obviously prepared to back it up and out it on the line that also could damage his own position

I respect that


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

interesting stuff in this here thread. I understand both sides. Smith has nothing to lose by issuing the challenge. Deng has little to nothing to gain by accepting, if it is indeed a 2-player draft as people saying, he won't move up by "beating" Smith, but could move down by "losing."

I don't blame Deng for refusing, and it's definitely possible (though not certain) that he might end up facing off with Smith in workouts anyway, so we'll just have to see. I'm a little disappointed with the refusal just because these are my 2 favorite SFs in the draft and I'd love to know what happened in such an example. I also agree completely with Showtyme that 1-on-1 duels don't necessarily mean a thing. And as much as I like Deng, I don't think his total game would be represented by a 1-on-1 scrimmage. I haven't seen enough of Smith to know him inside and out, but I think he'd prosper in such a game. Doesn't mean Smith will be a better NBA player, but it will give some indications on each player's strengths and weaknesses.

I liked ChiBulls and rlucas's debate. I think ChiBulls was trying to make a distinction that might not have come across. Arrogance can be a very good thing. Kobe has it, MJ had it, etc etc. But the thing that seems to be turning ChiBulls off, and Showtyme alluded to it nicely, is that Josh Smith comes across (at least sometimes and to some people) as someone who feels like he has nothing to learn - he thinks he's already THAT good. Kobe may have thought that too when he was 18, but sitting behind Eddie Jones and airballing critical shots in the playoffs changed his tune something fierce. He's still an arrogant SoB, but he works his tail off to be the best. Is Josh Smith THAT kind of arrogant, or the former? That's the big question. And as arrogant as Kobe and Lebron were (are) at the same age, they always said mostly the right things to the media. Smith doesn't seem to have the same level of tact, but that might not mean anything.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>VincentVega</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly. So why did you attempt to discredit Barry's opinions immediately after I posted them?
> ...


i respect barry as a basketball player but as a critic ...i have actually never heard him say anything positive about anyone that didn't carry the barry name , he always struck me as aone of those guys who are a bit bitter about the era we live in and wish he came up in it instead of the people who actually are.

i may be wrong about his motives but i'm not about whether or not the guy is bitter and extremely negative.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> interesting stuff in this here thread. I understand both sides. Smith has nothing to lose by issuing the challenge. Deng has little to nothing to gain by accepting, if it is indeed a 2-player draft as people saying, he won't move up by "beating" Smith, but could move down by "losing."
> 
> I don't blame Deng for refusing, and it's definitely possible (though not certain) that he might end up facing off with Smith in workouts anyway, so we'll just have to see. I'm a little disappointed with the refusal just because these are my 2 favorite SFs in the draft and I'd love to know what happened in such an example. I also agree completely with Showtyme that 1-on-1 duels don't necessarily mean a thing. And as much as I like Deng, I don't think his total game would be represented by a 1-on-1 scrimmage. I haven't seen enough of Smith to know him inside and out, but I think he'd prosper in such a game. Doesn't mean Smith will be a better NBA player, but it will give some indications on each player's strengths and weaknesses.
> ...


i am basically taking the people who swear that smith's confidence is a bad thing or that he doesn't have respect as people who need to bone up on the kid and pay more attention to the things he does say .

there have been some very big attepmts to spin what he says when there really is no need , he is a basketball player not a jr. diplomat

Givony: Josh, going from high school straight to the pros man, you are going to be playing against grown men, some of whom may have it out for you a little at first until you gain their respect. Do you see this as possibly being a humbling experience?

Smith: Yes, I believe it will be humbling, but I’m not going to back down from anybody. I’m trying to make a name for myself. 


this is a typical question from that draftcity interview and one of his responces ...there are some who swear he doesn't believe he has anything to learn can see from this he doesn't expect it to be all peaches and honey but he will do what he can to improve that situation if a bad one occurs.


Givony: So what do you think are the main things you need to improve on?

Smith: I just want to improve on everything, whatever they say I need to improve on, I’ll go in the gym and work on that. If they keep coming up with more stuff, I’ll keep working on whatever they say that I can’t do.

was that the answer of someone who thinks he knows everything?

Givony: So do you think your defense is good enough to guard a guy like McGrady or Ron Artest right now?

Smith: (long pause) I would say I have to work on that. Even Lebron James didn’t guard the best player on the court. That comes with more maturity and experience to guard those kind of players. 

there was a statement made earlier in this thread about this question in which ,it was said he didn't think his defense needed improvement...the answer of that is there for everyone to read.

Givony: David Stern is talking about making a developmental league so teams can send down younger players to get playing time instead of sitting on the bench losing their confidence. Would you be willing to play in a league like that if you were asked by the team that drafts you? 

Smith: No, I wouldn’t. It’s all about waiting your turn. If it’s not your time then you should sit on that bench until they feel like you are ready. I think I would learn more about the game itself from the veteran’s point of view, by looking and listening, instead of going to play and not knowing really what tricks and moves to make. 


this is the question asked of smith what he thought of him going to a developmental league , i dont think his answer was arrogant at all.


Givony: So Josh, what do you like to do in your free time?

Smith: I like to play video games, I like to study some of my tapes, and I like to read the bible a little bit.


i believe someone on this thread called him a "lowlife punk" and immature based on in part this interview. i am calling it spin.

but you know what none of this matters if he cant play worth a darn, this is the nba , and those who cant play at a certain level find themselves elsewhere soon enough.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> i respect barry as a basketball player but as a critic ...i have actually never heard him say anything positive about anyone that didn't carry the barry name , he always struck me as aone of those guys who are a bit bitter about the era we live in and wish he came up in it instead of the people who actually are.


About 2 months ago Barry did an interview and talked at length about how good he thinks JC is going to be...


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> About 2 months ago Barry did an interview and talked at length about how good he thinks JC is going to be...


 really, i would actually like to read it ...do you have a link?


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> 
> 
> really, i would actually like to read it ...do you have a link?


http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87857&highlight=rick+barry


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87857&highlight=rick+barry


the link on that thread was about the bears ,but i'll take your word for it.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>happygrinch</b>!
> the link on that thread was about the bears ,but i'll take your word for it.


*
Guard Optimism

The regular season will finish for Bulls guard Jamal Crawford much like it started — in a cloud of uncertainty.

Crawford has improved his stock this season as a restricted free-agent-to-be, but to what extent is open to debate.

At a team-high 16.9 points per game, Crawford is on a pace to average more points than the previous season for the third time in as many years. His 5.2 assists per game rank second on the team.

"Honestly, I don't know what to expect," Crawford said. "I can't worry about it, because I have no control over what happens. All I can do is play as well as I can for the last few games of the season, then see what's available this summer."

The consensus is that Crawford will receive an offer at the mid-level exception, which is expected to be in the $5 million-$6 million range. He is being paid $2.6 million this season.

In that case, Bulls management would be faced with three options: either refuse to match the offer and allow Crawford to leave the team, match the offer and retain his services, or match the offer and then trade him elsewhere.

Hall of Famer Rick Barry is among those who believe it could be a mistake to write off the 24-year-old Crawford after a four-year investment in him.

"Jamal has a lot of talent. He really does," said Barry, the Sporting News Radio analyst who has watched Crawford play against Barry's sons, Brent (Seattle) and Jon (Denver), several times in recent seasons. "If I were a coach, I would want him on my team."

In fact, a Barry could have something to say about where Crawford plays in the future. In the likely event that Brent leaves the SuperSonics as a free agent, then Crawford could be headed back to his native Seattle this summer.

New York also expressed an interest in Crawford earlier this season.

"Obviously, I'm not with Jamal on a daily basis, so he may have some shortcomings that I'm not aware of," Barry said. "He still has a lot to learn, but if utilized effectively and nurtured and brought along the right way, he has a big upside."

In a victory at Orlando last Wednesday night, Crawford showed the potential that he flashed on and off this season.

In one of his best all-around efforts of the season, Crawford scored 27 points on 9-of-18 shooting from the field, dished out nine assists, grabbed two rebounds and committed only two turnovers.

While Crawford concedes he is not a finished product, he believes he has improved in several areas this season.

"My shot selection has improved," Crawford said. "I'm also a better defensive player than I was last season. I can still get better in a lot of areas, but that will come with experience. I still believe that the sky is the limit for me."

At the same time, some observers wonder whether Crawford places too much emphasis on his own numbers and is too prone to defensive lapses to become an impact player in the league.

"He still takes too many ill-advised shots," one scout from another team said. "At the defensive end, he seems to be focused on some nights but not on others. There's no question about his athleticism, but he has yet to prove that he can make the sacrifices necessary to play a team game."

There also are doubts as to whether Crawford will ever shoot well enough from the perimeter to be a star in the league.

This season, Crawford has shot 32 percent from 3-point territory and 39 percent overall. A year ago, his marks were 36 and 41 percent, respectively.

With another sub-40-percenter in Kirk Hinrich already a fixture at point guard, a pure shooter is expected to be high on the list of team priorities this summer.

One of the greatest players ever said he would not be overly concerned about the apparent weakness at this early stage.

"The fact that Jamal hasn't shot well doesn't concern me," Barry said. "I can teach someone to be a better shooter. What's important is that the kid has a good feel for the game. He has some inherent talents that need to be maximized, but if you earn his respect and show that you care about him, you will get a positive response from him."*

http://216.109.117.135/search/cache...ly+southtown&d=CC8E5B42DC&c=482&yc=8012&icp=1


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

thanks arenas.it was a good read.


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## VincentVega (Oct 12, 2003)

You learn something new every day.


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## Philomath (Jan 3, 2003)

My dumb opinion - I like the cojones, but here's what I don't like about Josh Smith's challenge - why make it in public? Some dog-and-pony televised one-on-one grudge match (and if Deng accepted, who wouldn't want to watch?) with hooting crowds looking for dunks would have nothing to do with this process, on top of which he challenged someone with little to gain by taking him on. Best case for Deng is that he beats him, and everybody says "oh, Deng must be a little better than Smith right now" - which is where he is already! By calling him out publicly, he made it an issue of manhood to do it - he made Deng look like a punk in a place where Deng couldn't do anything about it because he has nothing to gain. Cheap! Deng probably knows little about this guy and Smith knows all about Deng. What a great matchup for Smith, huh? Now, if he was at a team workout with Deng, and quietly went up to the GM and said "I know you like Deng - let me show you what I can do against him," all props to him. Even if he requested ahead of time that GMs match him up against Deng, that would be better than to make this some street cred thing. But to lay down the gauntlet in public like that against a guy better regarded than you is to effectively call someone slang for a female dog in front of a crowd. This is people's livelihoods! Where are the agents this year? Who let Smith think this was classy? Who let Deng think his brilliant plan to make the GMs come to Duke was smart? Oh wait, Deng didn't talk to agents until this week, which is just when he abandoned that stupid idea... no coincidence there.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

If Deng thinks he is the better basketball player he should step up and take Smith out. Whether it affects his "status" or whatever be damned. You either have faith in yourself or you don't, Smith does...Deng doesn't.


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