# Road Runners for the Knicks



## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

For all the Frank Williams fans who were wondering what has happened...

"Contrary to counterfeit reports, the Knicks did not use Frank Williams and Othella Harrington to proposition the Cavaliers for Darius Miles; it was the other way around. Williams is not available in a trade unless it's one of maximum magnitude in which the Knicks would get Rashweed, Tracy McGrady or Kobe Bryant - you catch the drift. Naturally, Miles intrigues the Knicks, but not at the expense of Williams, ultimately the third guard in a three-man, interchangeable rotation; shades of Thomas, Joe Dumars and Vinnie Johnson.) "

Even better..he may be BACK..Yes Thomas is supposedly interested in bringing Camby back..Ild love him back here....
http://www.nypost.com/sports/knicks/44663.htm

And last but not least,my trade of the day..I assume the Clips are looking for a decent point guard...How about Sweetney and Frankie for Wilcox and filler????

Any opinions???Miles??Camby?? Wilcox?? 

I dont want rasheed...


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## DaBiGjImMy (Jun 19, 2003)

after sitting behind the houston basket in the first half of last nights game.... i really think we need some type of intimidator.... i dunno if this was mentioned before but i dunt mind sending kvh and kt for rasheed and yes the sleeper DALE DAVIS.... we got anally raped in the paint last night...... franchise was coming in and out the paint untouched as if it were a drive through...... any thoughts? KVH is a shooter thats all he will ever be ....


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

For all of Rasheed Wallace's hype, he honestly isn't much better than Keith Van Horn.

I don't see much point to swapping Sweetney for Wilcox either. Nor do I see why the Clippers would do it either. Williams isn't any better than Jaric or Dooling, and they already have Elton Brand, so why would they want the unathletic version? 

I'd be interested in bringing Camby back, as long as he isn't in the starting lineup. And if he is in the starting lineup, I don't want him playing 30 or more minutes per game. I'd rather have him starting at PF than Kurt Thomas though. Problem is getting it to contractually work. Would the Nuggets take Thomas and Doleac for Camby?

But then, that also means the Knicks are further thinning their bench. What happens when Camby's brittle body goes down like it usually does? Then that leaves us with Mutombo, Sweetney, Harrington, and Trybanski at PF and C. Of course, you could swing KVH to PF, and put Anderson/Penny at SF, but that further thins the bench.

The Knicks are making (or planning) too many 2 for 1 deals. We don't have draft picks, and we can't add anybody through free agency. Who here really wants to depend on 10 day contract guys? If one of the players we acquire goes down, it cripples the bench, and ultimately, any hope at the playoffs.

Thomas took a big risk in making this years pick unprotected. I wonder how highly Knick fans would think of him if they missed the playoffs and this years pick ironically ended up being the 1st pick in the draft?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

This team is in DIRE straits....I was in favor of a Rahim trade because it fits the Knicks style,and we would not have had to sell the future....

This team is in shambles now..marbury is a stud,but he needs a marion,an athlete to run with...Its not houston,certainly aint thomas..In fact,ironically KVH is the closest they have...

With that said,desperate times,takes desperate measures...You will have to thake chances you ordinairily wouldnt...Ild take camby in a heartbeat,and certainly do a 2 for 1...


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## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> For all of Rasheed Wallace's hype, he honestly isn't much better than Keith Van Horn.


I'm not even going to look at the stat lines between the 2 players mentioned above. The one thing above all else that Rasheed has over Van Horn, is that Rasheed is a much better post player than Van Horn. Whereas Van Horn can post, he has a tendency to drift to the 3 point line. The post game makes the game easier for everyone, especially on a nite when everyone's jumpshot is off. When you shoot from the outside everything is fine, but when the shot isn't falling you have to find another way to score. Van Horn was another person throwing up bricks Thur. nite instead of trying to see if he could score in the paint. We ALL love 6'10" who can hit the 3 ball, but do you mind getting dirty once in awhile? Mind you, if I could keep Van Horn and still get Rasheed I'd be estactic, but I don't know think Isiah wants to give up K. Thomas which is who Portland wants.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

*tapseer*

Very good points ...I have said it 1 million times,stats tell very little.In fact they can be manipulated any way you like...Its totally irrelavant that KVH may have better stats than Rasheed..Ons is a post up player and one isnt..plain and simple.We desperately need a post player who commands the double and can play with his back to the basket....

The problem with many is that they completely miss the big picture..It may very well be true that Rasheed is not that much better than KVH...But we arent talking about a one on one game in the schoolyard..The question is which player is better for the Knicks..And as long as you can "see",rasheed is the type of player the knicks desperatly need..


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## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

Well, maybe with all the speculation going on in the media and forums will put pressure on Portland to make a deal. I The main stumbling block to the deal I think is that Portland wants Kurt, instead of Van Horn. I'd give them Kurt. I like a line of Van Horn, Mutumbo, and Rasheed, as opposed to one with Kurt and Rasheed. We do need a inside post guy, no question...


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Tapseer</b>!
> I like a line of Van Horn, Mutumbo, and Rasheed, as opposed to one with Kurt and Rasheed. We do need a inside post guy, no question...


Offensively, sure.

Motumbo can't play extended minutes every night. We'd end up with a lineup of Doleac, VH & Wallace much of the time.

Soft.


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## solo (Nov 29, 2002)

I can't see Denver giving up Camby. He is playing too good for them.


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## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> 
> 
> Offensively, sure.
> ...


Who cares about Mutumbo's minutes? You need a post player, the team is actively trying to get Rasheed, so it's all about who we're giving up either Van Horn or Kurt, and your middle is soft anyway, so what's the difference? Actually on some nights, Mutumbo have been playing better than anyone expected. His problem most times is a matchup problem with the other teams 5. Anyway, I don't see where the frontcourt is so tough now...


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

Wallace a great post guy......you guys have not been watching him much haver you? He has fallen in love with the long "j". I agree about the stats but KVH gets some tough boards in traffic which is something not many guys are doing. Sure Van Horn has been getting 3's(and at a great%), but he has been driving, kicking out and posting up....he is having a very good year considering he isn't getting much help right now. On top of that, he has better ups than Wallace. VanHorn has like a 38" vertical, which Wallace does not. Finally, Wallace is a nightmare to play with and coach while Keith's biggest problem is his tendancy to be too laid back at times(read soft) but it has not been an issue this year. As far as the trade goes, I have never been a Marbury fan but maybe it will work here. Giving up the unprotected pick was an insane move. If Marbury gets hurt or we don't gel soon enough, we could end up with the #1. If the Suns draft Howard because of this trade, I will slash my wrists.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Part of my concern is we're not getting sheed for KT straight up, so how much more do we have to give up for him? Salaries don't match, he's the fourth highest paid player in the league.

(As an aside, Dekembe is 3rd, and Houston 5th. We'd have the 3-5 highest paid layers in the league and still not be serious contenders. But it's Dolan's money, not mine, so I don't care.)

He is a better fit for this team, but he's not mad great (I'm not sure he plays as hard as he used to), he's not a strong defender, and he's got a head to contend with. Whether he makes the team better or not though depends on the whole trade package.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Oak,if we dont pull off this trade,i think we are royally screwed..and mind you,i am not a rasheed fan...But the mix of KT,KVH,Houston and Deke is WRONG for Stef

Deke is fine in the middle..rebound,and block shots....

Kt is not an athletic power foward..hes a grinder and works in the Van Gundy system...Thats not Isiahs style...

maye isiah sees the knicks as becoming the bad boys part 2
lets look at the old Piston teams

Point Isiah .....awesome point guard
2 guard Dumars...great complement to Isiah..tuff D,great stroke
SF Aguire..great hands,great post player
Center Lambier..Sweet jumper good hands
PF Rodman..great D great rebounder,great athlete

In marbury we have isiahs equivalant...Houston/Williams is a nice combo......Deke Doleac is servicable.....Where we lack is the frint court..Kt can not run and is not a pogo stick like rodman..and KVH is certainly not a great post player that commands the double


The only trade that works is KT and KVH for Wallace..Its a desperation move,but if we dont have a better mix this will go down as one of the 3 dumbest Knick moves ever

Personally,Wilcox is the guy ild like but hes impossible to get


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## Peter123321 (Jan 2, 2004)

I might not even give KVH for Rasheed. I would die if we got Rasheed. He's just a little better than KVH, but he has terrible character, he's a big problem in the locker room with teammates + coaches, he's always getting in to trouble........... no, thank you. I don't think I'd watch the Knicks much anymore if they got Rasheed. It would be so dumb. What would be our lineup, Marbury, Houston, Shandon, Rasheed, Mutombo? I'd take Marbury, Houston KVH, Kurt, and mutombo over that anyday.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

You make good sense truth, as always. And I'm not against a deal for Rasheed, I've just come down from my initial absolute desire for it, and am mostly just thinking out loud.

Giving up two forwards for one is severe, especially for Rasheed's emotional unpredictability. And his contract expires this year. I'm not sure if that's good or not. I certainly don't want to resign him anywhere near what he's making now, nor do we want to trade so much only to have it walk at the end of the year. It's not like it gets us under the cap, or anywhere close.

What I like about KT is he's a stop gap. When the offense sags he's there, when the defense lapses he's there. He's our best all round defender, and a good rebounder, and we are no longer a good defensive or rebounding team. Remeber, running starts with defensive stops and rebounds.

Part of what made the bad boys so good was defense. They were good offensively and defensively. That team started the defense-first trend that Riley, Fratello, and Van Gundy followed. Without KT where is your defensive integrity? Of all our guys who could mesh with the bad boys, Marbury, Houston and Thomas may be it. Without good D this Knick team will be the cartoon version of the bad boys. 

Plus they had depth. Dumars could also play the point, their 6th man was Vinny "the microwave", who could fill the bucket in seconds, and Salley who could play center or PF. They were all mobile, fleet of foot, and basketball smart. 

If we dump KT and VH what is our front court? Deke, Rasheed, Harrington? Is that an improvement? That's no run and gun squad either.

We do need to make a move but perhaps not this week. The deadline is still a month away. I'd prefer to see what this squad can do when it gets it's orientation (*) and look at coaches, before making hasty moves.

* I still think this team is an emotional mess right now. The team never had great chemistry or a unifying leader, but Ward was something of the defacto leader, particularly of Houston and Thomes, who are still part of our core. Marbury is obviously a bit of a mess at the moment too, and he affects VH. Some are still pissed at Van Gundy, and Sprewell, who's come up twice right in Isiah's busy three weeks, probably brings up mixed emotions. Plus, the coach's head is on the block, and nobody feels safe right now - if Marbury could be traded so could Houston or anybody - and they all may fear the disruption of a "problem" like Rasheed. LOT'S going on.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I should have elaborated....My reference to the bad boys was if we got sheed..that definetly would not be a run and gun squad,but we would have a player with a post up game who would command a double and open up the inside outside game..thats why i wonder out loud if sweetney has any value as a back to the basket post up player..i havent seen him play enough and refuse to judge a guy off his georgetown stats...I have to see a player to evaluate him

I just hate the frontcourt of KVH and KT...Depending on what Penny has left,I would almost consider starting him at the 3 and sliding KVH to the 4


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> I'm not even going to look at the stat lines between the 2 players mentioned above.


It's a good thing you didn't.

Keith Van Horn
17.0 ppg
7.4 rpg (2.2 off)
1.7 apg
1.0 spg
0.3 bpg
2.9 tpg
.443 FG%
.320 3pt% (33-103)
.827 ft%
34.1 mpg

It should be noted that KVH is no longer averaging 3.5 tpg, and he no longer has a .380 fg%. He's clearly past his injuries, and is more effective when he doesn't have to create his own shot every possession.

Rasheed Wallace
16.8 ppg
6.6 rpg (1.6 off)
2.7 apg
0.7 spg
1.5 bpg
.430 fg%
.308 3pt% (41-133)
.726 ft%
38.5 mpg

You know, it's funny. If Van Horn drifts to the 3 point line so much, how come Wallace is shooting more 3's? He's also scoring less and grabbing fewer rebounds despite getting more minutes.

Wallace doesn't shoot 50% from the field like he did earlier in his career. Why? Because he's a jumpshooter now that strays to the 3pt line, just like Keith Van Horn. It's absolutely no coincidence that this has been Wallace's stat line the past few years.

00-01
.501 fg%
.321 3pt% (52-162)

01-02
.459 fg%
.360 3pt% (114-317)

02-03
.471 fg%
.358 3pt% (110-307)

Notice a trend here? Wallace isn't the post monster that he was earlier in his career.

So far Wallace has taken 5 or more 3pters in 15 games this season.
KVH has accomplished that only 10 times.

You know what else is the biggest indicator that Wallace is just as much of a perimeter player as Van Horn?

He takes fewer FT attempts.

If you actually watched Van Horn, you'd know that a lot of his points DO come from the inside. He is always grabbing offensive rebounds and putting it back in, it's his most consistent form of offense. Did I mention that Wallace has never averaged more than 8.2 rebounds in a season? For such a good post guy, he sure is an awfully weak rebounder.

Hold on a second... ah, 1st quarter, 4:30 in the game, KVH runs the floor, Marbury hits him for a breakaway layup. Ah... 

Well, back to the topic.

Do we even NEED to mention Wallace's technicals and ejections? Those don't show up in stat lines either, but they certainly are a part of his game. 

Or how about the fact that he can LEAVE the team via free agency if the writers badmouth him too much for his liking?



> Mind you, if I could keep Van Horn and still get Rasheed I'd be estactic, but I don't know think Isiah wants to give up K. Thomas which is who Portland wants.
> 
> 
> > They can't keep Van Horn and still get Rasheed. Wallace makes 17 million. They need KVH's 13 million, because they don't have anybody else they can offer that makes close to that. Portland isn't going to take Houston's contract, even if he would fit in well with the team. Not that I would want to trade Houston for Wallace anyway...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

*to the point*

Nice research rashidi....Your research and stats are obviously limited to basketball activities and dont account for anythin else..So we are talking purely basketball...

With that said,Do you believe for one second that if rasheed wallace wasnt a complete headcase Portland would consider trading him for KVH????

There is one reason Rasheed Wallace is being shopped..Hes a time bomb..Thats it..There isnt one NBA GM who would take KVH over Rasheed based on basketball....You think Thorn would consider trading KMART for KVH????

You see,by manipulating statistics you can present a very strong case for KVH..But even you know that without Rasheeds extracirricular nonsense NOBODY would be talking about KVH for Wallace...

You may be the ONLY person who is convinced KVH is actually a better ballplayer than rasheed..

KVH only gets you an undesirable player with history..or a verrry expensive elderly center


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

If the Knicks were willing to take headcase #1 Wallace and headcase #2 Patterson,maybe a Van Horn,Doleac,Anderson trade is possible...

Dallas should trade Shimmy Walker and filler for Rasheed


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## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

Again, you can't trade a player to a team that doesn't want that player. For all the stats that I've seen above, Portland didn't want Van Horn. As much as you try to sell us on Van Horn, you should have sent that to Portland's management and maybe you could have convinced them to accept that trade Isiah first presented. They didn't want your man Van Horn, they wanted Kurt Thomas. In essence, what I said was if IT could have found a way to get Rasheed over here and we still keep Van Horn I'd live with that. I'd rather have Rasheed and Van Horn, than Rasheed and Kurt. Anyway all this speculation is about to be moot in a minute any second now. I think the way the team is now is the team we'll be finishing with. Let's hope for the best, and hope that Marbury can make his teamates better as so many people say he hasn't or can't make his teamates better...


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> You may be the ONLY person who is convinced KVH is actually a better ballplayer than rasheed..


Which history is that? The one where he rescued the Nets in game 5 vs the Pacers, or the history where he buried the Celtics in the Conference Finals?

If Kenyon Martin (an expert Finals choker himself) didn't open his mouth about KVH's performance in an NBA Finals game 4 (where the season was already over), then nobody would care.

I never said KVH was better than Rasheed Wallace. I said they were similar. Keep your pants on, swift.

Is Wallace marginally better than Van Horn? Sure.

Is the marginal increase in talent worth the addition of a locker room cancer?

No.

And don't forget that the Knicks would also be giving up Kurt Thomas and Michael Doleac for this marginal upgrade.

Doesn't sound like much of an upgrade to me.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> For all the stats that I've seen above, Portland didn't want Van Horn.


I never said they did. I wasn't pointing out those stats to sell Van Horn on Portland fans.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> If the Knicks were willing to take headcase #1 Wallace and headcase #2 Patterson,maybe a Van Horn,Doleac,Anderson trade is possible...


What does Patterson do that Anderson doesn't? Portland doesn't want to add bad contracts. They have already stated that they would rather take Wallace's cap room than take scrubs for him.

Patterson + Wallace = 22 million

Van Horn + Anderson + Doleac = 21 million

Wallace's expiring contract = 17 million
Doleac's expiring contract = 1.5 million

Why would Portland ever agree to this trade? They're trying to dump payroll, not keep it around for another 3 years.



> Dallas should trade Shimmy Walker and filler for Rasheed


What for? Antoine Walker is better equipped to handle SF than Wallace. They already have Dirk and Jamison. Why do they ned another Power Forward? They need a center.


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## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> I never said they did. I wasn't pointing out those stats to sell Van Horn on Portland fans.


I didn't mean to imply that those stats were for Portland's fans. I was suggesting that you send those stats to Portland's management, who for all those wonderful stats you've provided on Van Horn versus Rasheed still didn't want Van Horn. Even though Van Horn would have come in cheaper, a model citizen compared to Rasheed's hot headedness on the court and drug problems off the court. They wanted Kurt Thomas. Which really doesn't say much, but I thought I point that out. I'm not knocking Van Horn either. He is a valuable asset to the team. If the team is staying the same, we are going to need him a lot to be successful.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

No,they are trying not to be the Jail Blazers.......


Patterson is one of those headcases that paul allen wants out...

I have to ask you seriously..Are you OK??

First you statitically list all the stats favoring KVH over Rasheed..Then when I propose a trade of KVH and Doleac for Rasheed and a second trade to clean out Portlands inmates of Shandon for Patterson you ask why would they do that??

And now you bring up expiring contracts?????
Why did you go into this whole stats thing in the first place??
Are you implying that Portland will only trade for an expiring contract??
Do you think the trade is essentially Doleac fo Rashed and KVH as filler????

Why are you so argumentative???
Even with yourself...
Your posts totally contradict yourself just to be argumentative...
its really wierd


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## chapi (Apr 4, 2003)

wow i never thought i would say this but I AGREE WITH RASHIDI

tradeing KVH for rasheed would be the most idiotic trade for the knicks. and on the other side the blazers wouldn't do it anyway...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

i would agree with him much more if i could figure out which stance he is taking 

I think he favors KVH over Rasheed.......i dont like clubhouse cancers,but for pure basketball ,rasheed is a better fit for the Knicks...But Portland doesnt want KVH so its a moot point.....

I do think the knicks need a high energy guy,someone like miles...


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

I've read all the posts..tell me again why Wallace is better than KVH? BTW, the same guys who think Wallace is a post player and the 'Horn man is a perimeter guy who doesn't post or command double teams is not watching the games. Everytime he posts, teams cheat a defender over to him. If he is healthy (emotionally and physically) he is a better player than Wallace(all things considered)....period. If Marbury decides to encourage and support him rather than bust on him, he'll turn him into a monster.


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## nycson (Nov 21, 2003)

You know it sounds like Rashidi is trying to sell keepin KVH over trading him for Rasheed. Now that I've seen the meaningful stats, I'd have to agree.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> You know it sounds like Rashidi is trying to sell keepin KVH over trading him for Rasheed. Now that I've seen the meaningful stats, I'd have to agree.


I'm glad to see at least one person on this board holds the glorious trait of reading comprehension.


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## Tapseer (Jun 13, 2002)

All of us would love for Van Horn to post more, but he doesn't, hence why posters, media types, and God, is calling for the Knicks to go after a post player? Again, it's not us you have to sell on Van Horn, it's Portland. I wish Rashidi, Alphadog, and whoever else espouses the virtues of Van Horn and sell Van Horn to Portland. I've very rarely seen Van Horn post. He could really help the offense every third trip to go down low and draw the doubles that people been seeing and help us get some easier baskets. When we were getting blown out by Houston by being strictly a perimeter shooting team, not once did I see the GREAT Van Horn take it upon himself to establish position down low and use his superior foot skills to get some easy baskets. If ever there was a game to set down and try to get your team some easy buckets, that game was it. At any time before the score was 23-2, Van Horn could asked for the ball down low, being he is our BEST LOW POST PLAYER, but he didn't. He kept chucking it from the outside like everyone else. Is that a player thing or is that on the coach for not calling post plays? I didn't want to give you guys an out, but I'm trying to be fair here.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

We can go back and forth all day on KVH vs Rasheed and thats the fun of being on the board..But it seems pretty clear that the people who matter most,Isiah and portlands GM both agree Rasheed is more valuable than Van Horn..Otherwise this trade would have never been initiated by thomas or turned down by portland


And for all you stat lovers..The Knock on van Horn has NEVER been jis stats..The numbers look pretty good...His D is terrible and the knock against him is he DISSAPEARS in the clutch moments..And Rashidi,before you bring up that Boston shot,keep in mind i didnt label him soft and a dissapearing act,his peers did


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> His D is terrible and the knock against him is he DISSAPEARS in the clutch moments..And Rashidi,before you bring up that Boston shot,keep in mind i didnt label him soft and a dissapearing act,his peers did


Ok fine, I won't mention the Boston shot. I'll mention the Pacers shot(s) that saved the Nets from extermination. All he did that game was outduel Reggie Miller. Let's bring up the statline from that elimination game.

Keith Van Horn
27 points
9-19 FG (5-8 3pt)
34 mins

Reggie Miller
31 points
10-23 FG (6-14 3pt)
49 minutes

Who are his peers? Kenyon Martin? I think it's fair to say that his peers are mighty ungrateful.

His peers claim he's got talent that goes untapped, and that's what frustrates them. Oh, and he's too willing to fade to the background.

Didn't they say the same thing about Allan Houston? I wonder how he's doing....


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