# Ranking NBA Players by Position: SGs



## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

Since no one has critized me yet for posting a best of the PFs thread, I’ll go ahead and do the other positions. I’ll start with a short discussion of the position decisions I made among the SGs. 

T-Mac will be playing the shooting guard this season. I think they went out and got Battier to be their starting 3-man. Even though the Rockets are loaded with bodies at the 2-spot, Battier’s a more valuable contributor for the starting line-up than any other option the Rockets have to play SG.
Pierce will be playing SF with Wally at the 2 for the purposes of my rankings. Wally is more of a one-dimensional scorer. Pierce has more all-around talents and slightly better passing ability. Also, Pierce typically guards forwards.
All talks about Joe Johnson being a point guard have officially gone out the window with the Hawks’ acquisition of Speedy. He’s definitely a 2-guard.
Steve Francis will likely start with Marbury in the backcourt now that Isaiah is taking over the Knicks. He loves his PGs whether they pass to their teammates or not. You’ll, therefore, regretfully see Stevie on my shooting guard list.
There’s really no telling how often Stackhouse will start in Dallas. Sometimes Avery likes to go small with Terry and Harris in the backcourt. Sometimes he likes to upsize the line-up with Josh Howard at the 2-spot. Either way, I still think Stack is their best pure SG. I will rank him with that in mind.
My first tier of shooting guards consists of two guys. You’ve got Kobe and you’ve got Wade. They’re both winners. They’re both completely unstoppable. I’m giving the edge to Kobe based on his defensive prowess for the time being. I won’t hate anyone for riding the bandwagon and putting Wade at the top of their list.

The second cluster of guys at this position is only three-deep. It pretty much comes down to T-Mac, Ray Ray, and VC. Allen definitely has the sweetest stroke of three, and his all-around game is very underrated. McGrady’s back problems look like they’ll plague him for a long time, but the Rockets win games whenever he’s in the line-up. Carter has had a career revitalization in New Jersey. I’m going to go with:

Tracy McGrady
Ray Allen
Vince Carter
My third tier of SGs is loaded with versatile, talented guys. Ginobili is a clutch performer, an energy guy, a reliable scorer, and a good help defender. Hughes is a steal machine with scoring ability who slashes to the basket with ferocity. Redd is a silky smooth shooter with unparalleled confidence and absolutely no conscious. Rip is non-stop motion. JJ is a good passer, a good shooter, a good defender, a good rebounder, and a good creator. He just doesn’t seem to be _great_ at anything. J-Rich is a budding star with springs for legs and an ever-improving perimeter game. I’ve got them ranked like this:

Joe Johnson
Manu Ginobili
Jason Richardson
Michael Redd
Richard Hamilton
Larry Hughes
The fourth tier of guys at this position is a hodge-podge of individuals, really. You’ve got one-time superstars like Francis, Stackhouse and Jones. You’ve got a couple of tweener guys in Daniels and Jackson. You’ve got an enigma in Wally and a gunner in Gordon. Even though this is tough, I went with:

Wally Szczerbiak – He’s versatile and ultra-competitive.
Steve Francis – If he ever gets his bearings in New York, he could do some things.
Antonio Daniels – This ranking might shock some people, but take a look at his stats when you get a chance.
Eddie Jones
Stephen Jackson
Ben Gordon – Totally one-dimensional
Jerry Stackhouse – Super-sub will become solid starter this season
The next group would include Mo Pete, Cuttino Mobley, Des Mason, and Raja Bell. I won’t rank them. So my final list looks like this:

Kobe Bryant – The ultimate assassin is the league’s best 2.
Dwayne Wade – Did anybody really think he would turn out to be this good?
Tracy McGrady – If his back flairs up again, he could fall down this list.
Ray Allen
Vince Carter – He could lead his team to the NBA Finals this year.
Joe Johnson – “Joe Cool” simply never gets flustered.
Manu Ginobili – Possibly the most unorthodox star ever in the NBA.
Jason Richardson – He’ll love playing for Nellie.
Michael Redd
Richard Hamilton – He’s part of the league’s most overrated backcourt.
Larry Hughes – If Hughes can stay healthy, the Cavs will challenge in the East.
Wally Szczerbiak – Who thought it would be a good idea to put two z’s around a c in a name?
Steve Francis
Antonio Daniels – His PER in an astounding 16.8 over the last 3 years. Look him up.
Eddie Jones – He’s still a valuable commodity on the downside of his career.
Stephen Jackson – Jax might be on the best team in the East this year.
Ben Gordon
Jerry Stackhouse
So what do you think? Let me have it.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Pierce and Lebron are in this discussion for me. I can't look at all those guys and leave them out. They're gonna have to compete with Peja and AK47? NO fun.

1. Bryant
2. James
3. Wade
4. Mcgrady
---------
5. Pierce
6. Carter
7. Allen
---------
8. J. Johnson
9. Redd
10. Hamilton
11. Ginobili
12. Richardson
-----------
13. Hughes
14. Francis (this one hurt)
15. E. Jones
16. Sczerniabjkbhkjhkiu u
17. R. Davis
18. Gordon
19. Bell
20. S. Jackson


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Szczerbiak sure as hell isn't better than Ben Gordon, not at this stage in his career anyway.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HKF said:


> Szczerbiak sure as hell isn't better than Ben Gordon, not at this stage in his career anyway.


 Yeah he is, Gordon is overrated. It's just a question of where you want your scoring, from a shooter or penetrator. I choose Wally. He's way more reliable too, Gordon is inconsistent.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Szczerbiak sure as hell isn't better than Ben Gordon, not at this stage in his career anyway.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

RollWithEm said:


> Vince Carter – He could *lead* his team to the NBA Finals this year.


At the risk of initiating a riot

:rofl: :laugh: :rotf:

If by lead you mean lead them in scoring then yes, otherwise no. Vince himself has stated multiple times who the leader on the team is.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> At the risk of initiating a riot
> 
> :rofl: :laugh: :rotf:
> 
> If by lead you mean lead them in scoring then yes, otherwise no. Vince himself has stated multiple times who the leader on the team is.


Do you just happen to try and nitpick every thing said about Vince. 

Like the other thread, do you have a ranking of yours. It sure would be nice to see your list, a meaningful contribution to the thread at hand


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HKF said:


> Szczerbiak sure as hell isn't better than Ben Gordon, not at this stage in his career anyway.


Insightful rebuttal.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

HB said:


> Do you just happen to try and nitpick every thing said about Vince.
> 
> Like the other thread, do you have a ranking of yours. It sure would be nice to see your list, a meaningful contribution to the thread at hand


So your job is to comment on everyone of my comments? I read something that made me literally laugh out loud so I posted about it.

I'd rather not rank SG's seperate from SF's as I prefer to look at wing players as a group. My rankings have LeBron, Kobe and Wade above everyone else with the group of AK-47, TMac, Melo, PP, Ray, JJ, Artest and Manu as the second group above everyone else.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

_Dre_ said:


> Yeah he is, Gordon is overrated. It's just a question of where you want your scoring, from a shooter or penetrator. I choose Wally. He's way more reliable too, Gordon is inconsistent.


How is Wally more reliable when he's been injured for a majority of the last three years? My advice is to watch the games.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HKF said:


> How is Wally more reliable when he's been injured for a majority of the last three years? My advice is to watch the games.


 That injury stuff doesn't really click with me. You know what he's capable of right? 

Wally's a solid shooter, you know what you're getting right there, it's not like Amare, who relies on athleticism. Gordon is too unreliable for me. Spotty shooter, and I would mention the whole 4th quarter thing, but I haven't watched enough Bulls games to know if it's still the case.


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

1. Kobe
2. AI (he is a SG)
3. Ray Allen
4. D-Wade
5. Rip Hamilton
6. T-Mac
7. Vinsanity
8. Redd
9. Manu
10. Richardson


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

cpawfan[B said:


> ]So your job is to comment on everyone of my comments?[/B] I read something that made me literally laugh out loud so I posted about it.
> 
> I'd rather not rank SG's seperate from SF's as I prefer to look at wing players as a group. My rankings have LeBron, Kobe and Wade above everyone else with the group of AK-47, TMac, Melo, PP, Ray, JJ, Artest and Manu as the second group above everyone else.


Not really, I only comment on those that I find bothersome. Sadly sometimes I forget about opinions


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

cpawfan said:


> At the risk of initiating a riot
> 
> :rofl: :laugh: :rotf:
> 
> If by lead you mean lead them in scoring then yes, otherwise no. Vince himself has stated multiple times who the leader on the team is.


Leading by example on the court, scoring the big bucket his team needs to win. It ain't hard to understand..

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Tmac
3. Carter
4. Wade


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> Leading by example on the court, scoring the big bucket his team needs to win. It ain't hard to understand..
> 
> 1. Kobe Bryant
> 2. Tmac
> ...


 I like Carter...but he's no leader. He's a talented player, but not a leader in the sense superstar guards should be.


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## choiboi46 (Jan 12, 2006)

Where's Cuttino?


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## AIFAN3 (Sep 17, 2005)

1.Kobe- No arguement here
2.Wade- Same here



3.Pierce- Very good all around player,very durable,can score with the best of them and a very efficient player.
4.Carter- Good player,sometimes gets lazy and lacks a real killer instinct and sometimes has a real horrid selection of shots. Can go as high as NO.2 on this list but needs to show that dominance consistantly.


5. Ray Allen- I think he's a tier below Pierce and Carter because he gives you scoring and not much else. Thoughs he's very good at scoring.
6. Joe Johnson- Very versatile player, can run a team with his playmaking ablities but he's only a second option to another main star on a team.
7.Manu Ginobili- This guy varys from year to year but he's a good defensive player but a serial flopper..
8.Jason Richardson- A scorer who can make a lot of highlight reels but that's about as deep as it goes with him. Needs to work on his FT shooting
9.Michael Redd- Pretty good scorer...Um..that's it...
10.Hamilton-Overrated defensive player but with an Elite mid range game. Also well conditioned as they come.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

choiboi46 said:


> Where's Cuttino?


Good point. He might have an argument for 20 on my list. Him and Jax are about the same player, it's pretty much personal preference.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

My top-ten, broken into tiers, as usual:

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Tracy McGrady
3. Dwyane Wade

4. Ray Allen
5. Vince Carter

6. Manu Ginobili
7. Michael Redd

8. Richard Hamilton
9. Jason Richardson

10. Larry Hughes


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Kobe
Tmac
Wade
Vince
Ray Ray
Redd
J-rich
Rip
Manu
Hughes


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> My top-ten, broken into tiers, as usual:
> 
> 1. Kobe Bryant
> 2. Tracy McGrady
> ...


 I'm glad you're brave enough to put T-Mac two. I would've put him at two, but I don't feel like dealing with the aftermath.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

_Dre_ said:


> I like Carter...but he's no leader. He's a talented player, but not a leader in the sense superstar guards should be.


Neither is Kobe, Wade, Bron etc. Leadership is overrated anyway.


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## AIFAN3 (Sep 17, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> Neither is Kobe, Wade, Bron etc. Leadership is overrated anyway.


All are better leaders than vince. Why do you Vince fans get insulted when people say he's not a leader.Vince himself admitted he feels uncomfortable being that guy...


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

AIFAN3 said:


> All are better leaders than vince. Why do you Vince fans get insulted when people say he's not a leader.Vince himself admitted he feels uncomfortable being that guy...


Who feels insulted? lol this just a message board with people sharing their opinion. You're free to think that way but don't put me in your group.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> Neither is Kobe, Wade, Bron etc. Leadership is overrated anyway.


 Leadership is not overrated.

Kobe, Wade, and Bron have all shown themselves capable of being both the best player and leader of a respectable playoff team at one time or another. Carter was there too at one point, but for some reason he couldn't juggle being both the main focus on offense and the man whom other players rely on to show them direction. 

Proper leaders juggle these tasks: 

1. Being clutch 
2. Knowing how to discern when to be set up teammates and be aggresive 
3. Knowing how to properly direct/order teammates in order to get the best of them
4. Being a uniter.

Kobe, Lebron, and Wade have all displayed these abilities in the past year. Carter has not, and never has. 

He's in the Garnett category. A great player who people believe are a leader on the merit of being a great player. 

You know what in fact is overrated? "Leading by example." A "leader by example" cannot be the main person on a team, because being a proper leader for your teammates is doing more than saying "look at me and follow." It's showing how to follow.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Guys please try and stay on topic


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

_Dre_ said:


> I'm glad you're brave enough to put T-Mac two. I would've put him at two, but I don't feel like dealing with the aftermath.


Yup. When fully healthy, I think Kobe and Mac are pretty equivalent. But right now you have to give Kobe the edge on health/durability.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

_Dre_ said:


> Leadership is not overrated.
> 
> Kobe, Wade, and Bron have all shown themselves capable of being both the best player and leader of a respectable playoff team at one time or another. Carter was there too at one point, but for some reason he couldn't juggle being both the main focus on offense and the man whom other players rely on to show them direction.
> 
> ...


Those describe Vince as well. Point well taken.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Air Fly said:


> Those describe Vince as well. Point well taken.


*1. Being clutch 
2. Knowing how to discern when to be set up teammates and be aggresive 
3. Knowing how to properly direct/order teammates in order to get the best of them
4. Being a uniter.*

1. Vince is clutch, I'll give him that.

2. He is not the type of player that sets up his teammates in the first place. He's a great player that feeds off of recieveing the ball, not a great player who facilitates offense at all. He's in it to get his points, and that's it. He's not selfish, but he's not a player that can consistently lay the table for his teammatws.

3/4. Carter is rarely vocal about anything. Cliff Robinson was suspended in the playoffs for marijuana, does Carter say anything? No. Is he directing his teammates during dead balls? No. Kidd is that team's leader. It's not really arguable IMO. But I can see your opinion is just biased being a Nets fan, so I'm not even mad at you.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> *1. Being clutch
> 2. Knowing how to discern when to be set up teammates and be aggresive
> 3. Knowing how to properly direct/order teammates in order to get the best of them
> 4. Being a uniter.*
> ...


Actually Vince does a pretty good job of setting of others. He isnt naturally as gifted as Bron, but trust me he is a very good passer. Watch the way he and Nenad work excellently together, its also no coincidence that Kidd's 3pt shooting went up ever since he started playing with Vince.

LOL what do you mean Vince didnt say anything about Cliff's suspension. He, RJ and Kidd all made statements regarding that issue. Obviously Kidd is the most respected on there and unquestionably the leader. It was never Vince's style to get in other players faces. By the way would you also call KG a leader just cause he screams and yells. In that instance a guy like Kmart would be the best leader in the league.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> Actually Vince does a pretty good job of setting of others. *He isnt naturally as gifted as Bron*, but trust me he is a very good passer.
> 
> *I just disagree. I don't think he's in Bron or Wade's league in that aspect.*
> 
> ...


....


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> ....


Sorry about the vocal thing, for some reason the first thing that came to mind were guys that yell and get into their teammates faces. Guys like Grant Hill and TD are considered leaders, and they are the total opposite of that


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> Sorry about the vocal thing, for some reason the first thing that came to mind were guys that yell and get into their teammates faces. Guys like Grant Hill and TD are considered leaders, and they are the total opposite of that


 I can't think of any "leaders" who did/do that. Not in public.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

people are still trying to put Carter over Wade
lol, I guess some cant see what is in front of them

I guess leading in basically every statistical category, having the 4th best PER in the league compared to #20 (yes, they are that far apart. Wade is .4 off the the league leader, Carter is 6.6 off), and again putting up historical playoff numbers this time on the way to finals mvp and a title.......guess some things never change. 

Anyway, Kobe and Wade in the top 2 are undeniable. Glad most people see whats right in front of them. 

then the next category has tmac, carter, allen, johnson, redd. Have fun ranking those. They are so close, with tmac and carter being the most talented off the bunch, but with injuries and production included, are extremely close


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> people are still trying to put Carter over Wade
> lol, I guess some cant see what is in front of them
> 
> I guess leading in basically every statistical category, having the 4th best PER in the league compared to #20 (yes, they are that far apart. Wade is .4 off the the league leader, Carter is 6.6 off), and again putting up historical playoff numbers this time on the way to finals mvp and a title.......guess some things never change.


Its because we are angry because of things like this

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_QLTtl6sbnE"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_QLTtl6sbnE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="600" height="350"></embed></object>

sry I couldn't resist :biggrin:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> people are still trying to put Carter over Wade
> lol, I guess some cant see what is in front of them
> 
> I guess leading in basically every statistical category, having the 4th best PER in the league compared to #20 (yes, they are that far apart. Wade is .4 off the the league leader, Carter is 6.6 off), and again putting up historical playoff numbers this time on the way to finals mvp and a title.......guess some things never change.
> ...


Please show me the 'people' trying to put Carter over Wade. Its interesting you never updated your sig during the playoffs. I guess those games dont matter


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## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

_Dre_ said:


> I like Carter...but he's no leader. He's a talented player, but not a leader in the sense superstar guards should be.


This leadership stuff is ridiculous. Wade did not lead his team to a championship, Shaq did. McGrady is no great leader since he can't get out of the 1st round. Kobe gets too angry with his teamates and that just causes more problems. What the hell did Carter do that made him such a bad leader? Out of Carter, T-Mac, Kobe, and Wade, Carter has gone the farthest as the team leader. I'm not saying he is some great leader but I also don't agree that he is the worst leader ever like people think.

Anyways here is my top 5 list(as of last season):

1. Kobe...obvious
2. Wade...Finals MVP
3. Carter...Average season
4. Ray...didn't make playoffs
5. McGrady...back injuries


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> Please show me the 'people' trying to put Carter over Wade. Its interesting you never updated your sig during the playoffs. I guess those games dont matter


the same that always does :biggrin: 

and 82 games means more than a 5 game playoff series.......much more accurate description of how they played that season.....

and that sig is going to be there next year as well, using the stats next year....I dont change things that work. Im a little superstitious in that way.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

Fray said:


> This leadership stuff is ridiculous. Wade did not lead his team to a championship, Shaq did.


wow, there is no doubt among the heat and their fans who the leader of that team is, on and off the court......its all Wade, as shaq has said multiple times himself. 

did you not see the playoffs? Is there any doubt who is leading the heat........maybe shaqs first year when Wade first came on, but definately not anymore.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Fray said:


> This leadership stuff is ridiculous. Wade did not lead his team to a championship, Shaq did.
> McGrady is no great leader since he can't get out of the 1st round. Kobe gets too angry with his teamates and that just causes more problems. What the hell did Carter do that made him such a bad leader? Out of Carter, T-Mac, Kobe, and Wade, Carter has gone the farthest as the team leader. I'm not saying he is some great leader but I also don't agree that he is the worst leader ever like people think.


More misinterpreting what a leader is. This whole thing gets corny after awhile, but for the sake of discussion: It's not always about being the best player or, leading your team anywhere standings-wise. 

Darrell Armstrong might've been the best leader on the Mavs last year, and he might've been the worst player, so your argument is moot. I made a detailed post of my criteria, and you decide to blindly quote me and then come up with your own uninformed evidence for "leadership." Suffice to say I won't take this argument serious until it has some decent independent insight instead of myths/cliches about these guys.


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## Roscoe Sheed (Jun 19, 2006)

choiboi46 said:


> Where's Cuttino?


I love the Clips, but he isn't very good. I wish they would put him on the bench and start Maggette at SG


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## tobybennett (Jun 12, 2003)

T-mac is top tier. His back was done for all of last season. Look for him to rebound and have a huge season this year.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

*Responses*

I’m going to address a few points brought up thus far in this thread.

Cuttino Mobley’s placement has come into question. Let’s look at this closer. Cuttino’s PER last season was 13.1. That would be his lowest total since his second year in the league. An aberration you say? Well, consider that his PER has gone down each of the last 4 full seasons he’s played. PER doesn’t take into account defense you say? Cuttino also happens to be a poor defensive player. Dunleavy even subs Daniel Ewing in for him in the clutch because of defense. That’s downright embarrassing. Where does he belong? Out of the top 20, that’s where.


The question of leadership and how it contributes to rankings by position has come up. I try not to let perceptions influence my rankings. I believe that people who are not present in locker rooms and huddles have no business pretending to know anything about the relative value of a player’s leadership abilities. Derek Jeter is the leader of the Yankees, right? What does that mean about Giambi’s leadership ability? Wasn’t he the leader of the A’s before he got to NY? What about Shef’s leadership? What about Posada? Just because one individual is “the leader” of a team doesn’t mean other players don’t possess valuable leadership characteristics. I don’t think any of us can accurately judge leadership numerically. If Jason Kidd is the leader of the Nets, does that necessarily mean that Jefferson, Carter, and Frank do absolutely no leading at all? More importantly, if T-Mac, Kobe, or Wade were in Carter’s place on the Nets, wouldn’t Kidd still be the leader of that team since he took them to the NBA Finals twice previously? I don’t think leadership should be more than a very tiny part of this discussion.


This leads me to the issue of T-Mac’s ranking. I don’t think he’s a top tier player anymore. He’s missed 54 games in the last 3 seasons! That number is staggering. His talent is right up there with Kobe and Wade, but he simply cannot stay on the floor. Also, it’s not like his injuries have been sprained arms and scuffed knees. He’s suffering from a degenerative back condition. This thing is never going to completely heal. For me, that puts him in the conversation with Vince and Ray instead of in the conversation with Kobe and Wade.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

*Re: Responses*



RollWithEm said:


> [*]The question of leadership and how it contributes to rankings by position has come up. I try not to let perceptions influence my rankings. I believe that people who are not present in locker rooms and huddles have no business pretending to know anything about the relative value of a player’s leadership abilities. Derek Jeter is the leader of the Yankees, right? What does that mean about Giambi’s leadership ability? Wasn’t he the leader of the A’s before he got to NY? What about Shef’s leadership? What about Posada? Just because one individual is “the leader” of a team doesn’t mean other players don’t possess valuable leadership characteristics. I don’t think any of us can accurately judge leadership numerically. If Jason Kidd is the leader of the Nets, does that necessarily mean that Jefferson, Carter, and Frank do absolutely no leading at all? More importantly, if T-Mac, Kobe, or Wade were in Carter’s place on the Nets, wouldn’t Kidd still be the leader of that team since he took them to the NBA Finals twice previously? I don’t think leadership should be more than a very tiny part of this discussion.


Good questions. And I will even take it further, since people love to rank players more times than not on how many PPG they put up. Replace any of those guys ranked above Vince on the Nets and see if they still put up the numbers they did. Not with 3 other guys that also have a nice share in the offense.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> Insightful rebuttal.


Szczerbiak is a dog awful defender, and you need to completely remake your lineup (so that you get your primary offense out of the 1 & 4) to get any sort of use out of him. Minnesota was an abject failure with him until they found a SG that could defend and score consistently (Sprewell) and a 1 that could score (ET) so that their first wing off the bench could be a defender. In Boston he was so godawful that Pierce got the responsibility of covering the other teams leading wing scorer every night, no matter who it was. The result was that after 20 games he was running around with his tongue hanging out. Wally would be quite useful as a scorer off the bench, you know, so long as he didn't ***** and moan about not starting and going clubhouse lawyer on you. And frankly, there isn't a shooting guard in the Big East that Wally can guard, much less the NBA.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> wow, there is no doubt among the heat and their fans who the leader of that team is, on and off the court......its all Wade, as shaq has said multiple times himself.
> 
> did you not see the playoffs? Is there any doubt who is leading the heat........maybe shaqs first year when Wade first came on, but definately not anymore.


i still dont buy that wade is the leader off the court. shaq saying so doesnt make it true. reggie used to say the pacers were JO's team and he was the leader. how much does anyone here believe that?





HB said:


> Please show me the 'people' trying to put Carter over Wade. Its interesting you never updated your sig during the playoffs. I guess those games dont matter





Air Fly said:


> Leading by example on the court, scoring the big bucket his team needs to win. It ain't hard to understand..
> 
> 1. Kobe Bryant
> 2. Tmac
> ...


but im not gonna hold you, HB, responsible for Air Fly's comments.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

HB said:


> Guys please try and stay on topic


when any two of these names enter a topic (Kobe, T Mac, Vince, Wade) things tend to go askew. All four in the topic and it is bolt the door time.

1. Kobe
2. T Mac
3. Wade
4. Carter
5. Pierce
6. Allen
7. Redd
8. Hamilton
9. Manu
10. J Rich


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> Szczerbiak is a dog awful defender, and you need to completely remake your lineup (so that you get your primary offense out of the 1 & 4) to get any sort of use out of him....And frankly, there isn't a shooting guard in the Big East that Wally can guard, much less the NBA.


I'm not buying that. Sczerbiak is limited, but he's a shooter, you don't have to remake your offense for that, every team could use that. Gordon's defense leaves some to be desired to, and considering he's playing the two, if we want to be realistic he'll get bodied up all day, and he doesn't have/use his lateral quickness on defense with guards. Like I said earlier, it's a question of where you want your scoring, and I'd take Wally's shooting, because it's more reliable for me.



Rollwithem said:


> The question of leadership and how it contributes to rankings by position has come up. I try not to let perceptions influence my rankings. I believe that people who are not present in locker rooms and huddles have no business pretending to know anything about the relative value of a player’s leadership abilities. Derek Jeter is the leader of the Yankees, right? What does that mean about Giambi’s leadership ability? Wasn’t he the leader of the A’s before he got to NY? What about Shef’s leadership? What about Posada? Just because one individual is “the leader” of a team doesn’t mean other players don’t possess valuable leadership characteristics. I don’t think any of us can accurately judge leadership numerically. If Jason Kidd is the leader of the Nets, does that necessarily mean that Jefferson, Carter, and Frank do absolutely no leading at all? More importantly, if T-Mac, Kobe, or Wade were in Carter’s place on the Nets, wouldn’t Kidd still be the leader of that team since he took them to the NBA Finals twice previously? I don’t think leadership should be more than a very tiny part of this discussion.


I disagree. I have to go to class right now, I'll be back, but suffice to say when you have shooting guards who are this close skill wise, things like leadership can be the deciding factor. I mean..take two equally *skilled* guys. One thrives under pressure, is clutch, sets up his teammates, doesn't whine in the press...and the other one mopes, cracks under pressure, and doesn't want to own up to his responsibility as a franchise player. I'm taking the first one. 

People tend to forget...when money is invested in these guys, things like leadership are considered. It's all part of one package, and for us to leave things like that out of the discussion is more of a lowblow of sorts to the guys who step up and are uniting factors than it is a mere small factor that should be ignored. 

I think franchise guards, at least in this discussion, need to be penalized for not being the best leader, whereas guys who display leadership deserve credit. It's a disservice to this discussion to ignore it.

And as far as the Yankee analogy...noone's saying, I don't think, that only one person can be leader, or something like that, but we are saying that individual player should have the capability to lead in situations. One example is Kobe willing his team to victory in that far back playoff game against the Kings when Shaq got injured or fouled out, one. I don't necessarily remember. Anyway, Shaq was the chief of the team, but Kobe stepped up when he had to, and he's doing it now with the Lakers. It's less about being the one leader than it is being capable of leadership for me.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Mobley and Wally are not poor/awful defenders. No way.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Wally is not a poor defender? What?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

*Re: Responses*



RollWithEm said:


> [*]This leads me to the issue of T-Mac’s ranking. I don’t think he’s a top tier player anymore. He’s missed 54 games in the last 3 seasons! That number is staggering. His talent is right up there with Kobe and Wade, but he simply cannot stay on the floor. Also, it’s not like his injuries have been sprained arms and scuffed knees. He’s suffering from a degenerative back condition. This thing is never going to completely heal. For me, that puts him in the conversation with Vince and Ray instead of in the conversation with Kobe and Wade. [/list]


This is a bit misleading; it implies McGrady is constantly (season-to-season) missing a lot of time. The majority of those 54 games came in one season. The season before that, he missed 4 games, which is hardly significant.

Last season was definitely a "lost season" (though he played damned well for a guy with a back injury). If that turns out to be the norm, he's definitely done as a top-tier player. But for a little perspective, consider this: Even including last season's wipe-out, McGrady has averaged 68 games per season. Kobe Bryant? He's averaged 70.7 per season. And that's with one more prime season for Kobe (as he entered the league one year before McGrady). Is a 2.7 game difference really the difference between first tier and second tier? And that's with one (so far) aberration season for McGrady. Prior to last season, McGrady had played *more* games per season than Kobe.

I think it should take more than one bad season (injuries-wise) to determine that a player is finished as a top-tier player.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

HKF said:


> Wally is not a poor defender? What?


He is not. I only saw him two or three times as a Celtic, but before he got traded, he was putting forth a great effort to stay with his man, and leading the Wolves in drawing charges. He is average to below average, not poor. He is too smart and works too hard to be labeled a poor defender.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> I'm not buying that. Sczerbiak is limited, but he's a shooter, you don't have to remake your offense for that, every team could use that. Gordon's defense leaves some to be desired to, and considering he's playing the two, if we want to be realistic he'll get bodied up all day, and he doesn't have/use his lateral quickness on defense with guards. Like I said earlier, it's a question of where you want your scoring, and I'd take Wally's shooting, because it's more reliable for me.


The problem is that he only scores 16-18 points in any given night, so he doesn't score enough to justify his defense. The result is that you really need someone like a Trenton Hassell or Tony Allen to start next to him, but those guys are very limited, offensively, meaning the primary offense has to come from someplace else, because Wally can't carry an offense. To all this he adds the luxury of being a terrible player under pressure. So at the moment you need Szczerbiak's only skill, he loses it. For all of Ben Gordon's faults, he brings more offense, and no one could say that he shrivels under pressure.



bballlife said:


> He is not. I only saw him two or three times as a Celtic, but before he got traded, he was putting forth a great effort to stay with his man, and leading the Wolves in drawing charges. He is average to below average, not poor. He is too smart and works too hard to be labeled a poor defender.


Wally is a below average to terrible defender. First off, if you'd actually been watching, you would have noticed that Wally got the "tough" assignment of guarding the Trenton Hassells and Ira Newbles of the NBA. And he couldn't stay with them. That is a gigantic liability, and one reason that Boston's young big men drew so many fouls last year. Wally's man was able to get to the rim at will, forcing the relatively slow Perkins and the relatively clueless (on the defensive end, anyway) Jefferson to have to rotate and stop them, because both players tended to be a step late to the play they drew a ton of blocking fouls. And as the 2s tend to be quicker than the 3s, there isn't a chance in Schenectady that he could stop any of them.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> The problem is that he only scores 16-18 points in any given night, so he doesn't score enough to justify his defense. The result is that you really need someone like a Trenton Hassell or Tony Allen to start next to him, but those guys are very limited, offensively, meaning the primary offense has to come from someplace else, because Wally can't carry an offense.


That scenario you explain is as a lineup should be IMO. Usually the 2/3 position is filled by a scorer and a defender (at either position). I wasn't implying that Szcerbiak will ever carry an offense, but he's a nice 2nd or third option to have. As far as lacking defense, the majority of the guards in the league are low quality defenders, so he's not in the complete depths of the league as far as defense. 



> To all this he adds the luxury of being a terrible player under pressure. So at the moment you need Szczerbiak's only skill, he loses it. For all of Ben Gordon's faults, he brings more offense, and no one could say that he shrivels under pressure.


I haven't really seen enough T-wolves games to argue the clutch statement, but I do know of Gordon's ability right there, so yes, Gordon wins in that aspect. But Gordon's main deficiency, which is not his fault, is what puts Szcerbiak over him right now IMO. Gordon is too undersized as a starter at the 2, and his scoring doesn't make up for it. 

Similar to how you have to find a defender next to Wally, you have to find a good, defender at the point next to him, even more rare and usually limited than Allen and Hassell. Either that or you place him at the point, and then you have to create an offense to make up for Gordon's passing deficiencies. 

To be so good, Gordon creates more headaches IMO, and he's really not worth it. Right now, he's an undersized scorer who relies on penetration to cover his spotty shooting. You can find more of that than a solid 16-18 points from midrange a night in this league. There aren't too many shooters like Wally, whereas there are plenty of scorer like Gordon, which is why he's so low in this ranking as a supposed main option in Chicago.


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## thacarter (Mar 27, 2006)

Pure Shooting Guards
1)Kobe
2)Carter
3)Wade
4)Pierce
5)Ray

now heat fans, i dun argued why Carter is a better SHOOTING GUARD than Wade,although Wade is a better overall player so deal with it..VC>>>Wade in terms of the SG position


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: Responses*



RollWithEm said:


> This leads me to the issue of T-Mac’s ranking. I don’t think he’s a top tier player anymore. He’s missed 54 games in the last 3 seasons! That number is staggering. His talent is right up there with Kobe and Wade, but he simply cannot stay on the floor. Also, it’s not like his injuries have been sprained arms and scuffed knees. He’s suffering from a degenerative back condition. This thing is never going to completely heal. *For me, that puts him in the conversation with Vince and Ray instead of in the conversation with Kobe and Wade.*


Why do you place him in this category? That seems silly to, instead of awaiting this season, just drop him a tier instead. 

I'm with the belief that a players last offering oncourt should be used in a ranking, unless it's a ridiculous case. This is hardly that, as he's only had two bad years, and even when oncourt, he's been pretty much the same. It's notlike he was going out there with a bum knee and clearly being slow and out of place. He just had to shut it down to rest himself for awhile, which is the only thing you can do with a back condition.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> That scenario you explain is as a lineup should be IMO. Usually the 2/3 position is filled by a scorer and a defender (at either position). I wasn't implying that Szcerbiak will ever carry an offense, but he's a nice 2nd or third option to have. As far as lacking defense, the majority of the guards in the league are low quality defenders, so he's not in the complete depths of the league as far as defense.


The problem is that Wally isn't a scorer, which is why he's a liability. If Szczerbiak _were_ a player that could score points by the bushel, you'd have a point. But he can't. So on the wing you end up with a mediocre scorer that struggles defensively against defensive specialists and a defensive specialist to cover the mediocre scorer's deficiencies. That's a gigantic disadvantage for a team, because NBA teams _rely_ on being able to put scorers on the floor at the 2/3. This is why Minnesota never made it out of the first round until they plugged Spree into the lineup. I mean, sure, Szczerbiak would look great playing alongside Artest, but frankly, so would every starting wing in the NBA, so it's hardly a point in Szczerbiak's favour.




_Dre_ said:


> I haven't really seen enough T-wolves games to argue the clutch statement, but I do know of Gordon's ability right there, so yes, Gordon wins in that aspect. But Gordon's main deficiency, which is not his fault, is what puts Szcerbiak over him right now IMO. Gordon is too undersized as a starter at the 2, and his scoring doesn't make up for it.


But Gordon is, unlike Szczerbiak, a scorer. Capable of torching NBA defenses even if you try double covering him. So, unlike Szczerbiak, he actually _does_ score enough to cover the defensive deficiency.



_Dre_ said:


> Similar to how you have to find a defender next to Wally, you have to find a good, defender at the point next to him, even more rare and usually limited than Allen and Hassell. Either that or you place him at the point, and then you have to create an offense to make up for Gordon's passing deficiencies.


Or find a decent ball handler in the 6'4"-6'6" range to play next to him. 



_Dre_ said:


> There aren't too many shooters like Wally, whereas there are plenty of scorer like Gordon, which is why he's so low in this ranking as a supposed main option in Chicago.


Actually, scorers of Gordon's stripe are rare, and Wally's only skill deserts him under pressure, I'll take Gordon, as would every GM in the NBA, Euroleague, and the Outer Mongolian Basketball Association. Frankly Shane Battier is infinitely more valuable than Szczerbiak. And the fact remains that there isn't a shooting guard starting in the NBA that Szczerbiak can defend. He shouldn't make any sort of top 30 list.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> The problem is that Wally isn't a scorer, which is why he's a liability. If Szczerbiak _were_ a player that could score points by the bushel, you'd have a point. But he can't. So on the wing you end up with a mediocre scorer that struggles defensively against defensive specialists and a defensive specialist to cover the mediocre scorer's deficiencies. That's a gigantic disadvantage for a team, because NBA teams _rely_ on being able to put scorers on the floor at the 2/3. This is why Minnesota never made it out of the first round until they plugged Spree into the lineup. I mean, sure, Szczerbiak would look great playing alongside Artest, but frankly, so would every starting wing in the NBA, so it's hardly a point in Szczerbiak's favour.
> 
> * They rely on defense at the the 2/3 just as they rely on good size at the 2, which Gordon doesn't provide. Like I said, Szcerbiak shouldn't be a major player, a 2 or 3 offensive option at his best, but IMO he's just more valuable to have than Gordon. *
> 
> ...


....


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> The problem is that he only scores 16-18 points in any given night, so he doesn't score enough to justify his defense. The result is that you really need someone like a Trenton Hassell or Tony Allen to start next to him, but those guys are very limited, offensively, meaning the primary offense has to come from someplace else, because Wally can't carry an offense. To all this he adds the luxury of being a terrible player under pressure. So at the moment you need Szczerbiak's only skill, he loses it. For all of Ben Gordon's faults, he brings more offense, and no one could say that he shrivels under pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> Wally is a below average to terrible defender. First off, if you'd actually been watching, you would have noticed that Wally got the "tough" assignment of guarding the Trenton Hassells and Ira Newbles of the NBA. And he couldn't stay with them. That is a gigantic liability, and one reason that Boston's young big men drew so many fouls last year. Wally's man was able to get to the rim at will, forcing the relatively slow Perkins and the relatively clueless (on the defensive end, anyway) Jefferson to have to rotate and stop them, because both players tended to be a step late to the play they drew a ton of blocking fouls. And as the 2s tend to be quicker than the 3s, there isn't a chance in Schenectady that he could stop any of them.



No, you are wrong. Actually been watching? I attend quite a few Timberwolves games each season, I watch most of the rest. I have probably seen him play in around 300 games. He has drawn plenty of tough assignments throughout the years, from Jordan to Kobe....and done a decent job on some of these tough assignments. 

In Boston, he was playing injured, you do realize that??? A bad knee is going to slow you down. A healthy Wally is average to below average. Please don't tell me you are labeling Wally a terrible defender off a 30 game stint last season where he was injured and playing for a new team. 
Please.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> They rely on defense at the the 2/3 just as they rely on good size at the 2, which Gordon doesn't provide. Like I said, Szcerbiak shouldn't be a major player, a 2 or 3 offensive option at his best, but IMO he's just more valuable to have than Gordon.


Wally has proven to be a terrible second option, because he struggles against solid man up defenders. He proved to be a good _fourth_ option, but *****ed and moaned the entire time about his touches, his role, his minutes, etc. And, again, if teams rely on offense and defense, Ben's a good offensive player. Wally is mediocre offensively, and a defensive disaster. Point Bengo.



_Dre_ said:


> I don't think Gordon's scoring is special enough to put him in a category where you build around him, and that's exactly what would have to be done right now with his height. It's damn near impossible to build a team around a small combo guard, and needless to say at this point he's not worth being built around.


ummm, so Gordon's worse because you have to "build around him" but Wally's OK because you have to "build around him"? I'm a little confused here. It's a whole lot easier to find a 6'4" ballhandler than find a 1/4 combo capable of scoring 40 p/g between them. Point Bengo, because it takes less effort to cover his deficiencies and he provides more offense as a reward.



_Dre_ said:


> If he works on his shooting, passing, and defense, maybe he can turn it around ala a Chauncey Billups, but right now he's not enough of a scorer to put his value above Wally. Gordon averaged 16 points on %42, that's too pedestrian to put a team around.


:rofl: :rotf: :rofl:

Turn it around? 

:rofl: :rotf: :rofl:

Bengo's a very good offensive player, not an end of the bench scrub. He doesn't need to "turn it around" he just needs another combo guard to share the backcourt with. You know, kind of Like Chicago does?



_Dre_ said:


> No, Wally isn't the best defender, but most all shooters don't do much of anything but shoot. His ability special in the sense that he can do it a higher level that the average utility scorer


Except when the game's on the line, then he turns into Antoine Walker (which might not be fair to Walker as he hit some big shots in the playoffs last year, though he still sucks).



_Dre_ said:


> and as far as struggling offensively, all he needs are some picks, and some open looks set up for him, preferably by a big man, which has pretty much been the case with him and KG.


So, Wally's better because if you design the entire offense around a 17 p/g scorer he'll score his 17 points efficiently? (so long as you don't need them at the end of the fourth quarter). Sorry, if I'm running the offense around a single player he'd damn well better be able to light up that scoreboard like a lava lamp.



_Dre_ said:


> You're going to need more than ballhandling, you're gonna need some way to facilitate/run the offense. I'll just sum it up like this: why do you think Chicago has been looking for a star guard every year in exchange for Ben? They know he can't be built around, and neither can Wally, but he's just more valuable.


You might not be able to "build around" Bengo, but you _have to_ remake your entire lineup to get any use out of Szczerbiak. In other words, it's easier to get positive use out of Bengo than Szczerbiak. You need an all star at either the 1 or 4 and a highly proficient scorer at the other spot. Oh, and a great two way player on the wing, one capable of guarding smaller/quicker guards, and taller/longer forwards. Boy, guys like that just grow on trees. In fact, I believe every NBA team has two or three Artest-level wings on their roster. And, if Wally's so valuable, why did the Timberwolves spend three years begging any and all to take Wally off their hands?




_Dre_ said:


> This is bordering on an unnecessary dislike of Wally to me. I mean not top 30 as a guard?! Come on. And Gordon is not a rare scorer. An undersized "instant offense" guard is not rare. Those are in more abundance than a 16-18 ppg shooter.


Go back and look at that list of shooting guards and find one that isn't going to torch Szczerbiak at will. It won't be easy. There's a reason that the T'wolves spent years trying to find a way to hide Szczerbiak defensively, and why Paul Pierce ran out of gas after having to carry Szczerbiak for 20 games (because Szczerbiak as the second option forced Pierce to carry the entire load on both ends of the floor).


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

bballlife said:


> He has drawn plenty of tough assignments throughout the years, from Jordan to Kobe....and done a decent job on some of these tough assignments.


:rofl: :rotf: :rofl:

Wally did a decent job on Kobe?

:rofl: :rotf: :rofl:


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> :rofl: :rotf: :rofl:
> 
> Wally did a decent job on Kobe?
> 
> :rofl: :rotf: :rofl:


 Jordan?


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> :rofl: :rotf: :rofl:
> 
> Wally did a decent job on Kobe?
> 
> :rofl: :rotf: :rofl:



Where exactly did I say they? Try reading it again. I said he has drawn tough assignments throughout the years, from Jordan to Kobe, and has done a decent job on some of these tough assignments.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> Jordan?


Well, as the Wally-era Jordan was near 40 and playing for the Washington Wizards, I found the claim that he'd done a good job on Kobe infinitely funnier. Besides, apparently he's backed off the claim that Wally's done a good job on even the 40 year old Jordan.




Bballlife said:


> Where exactly did I say they? Try reading it again. I said he has drawn tough assignments throughout the years, from Jordan to Kobe, and has done a decent job on some of these tough assignments.


So, when you were referring to tough defensive assignments that he did well on, you actually meant Jarvis Hayes, right?


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> Well, as the Wally-era Jordan was near 40 and playing for the Washington Wizards, I found the claim that he'd done a good job on Kobe infinitely funnier. Besides, apparently he's backed off the claim that Wally's done a good job on even the 40 year old Jordan.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What are you talking about? I stated that he has drawn tough defensive assignments throughout the years. Do you really want me to list every single assignment that is generally considered a tough matchup? Would it have been better if I said, Ray Allen, Jordan, Kobe, Pierce, Redd, Peja, etc, etc, etc and then stated, he has done a decent job *at times* on *some* of the tougher assignments? 

Reading comprehension.


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## mekray (Jul 27, 2005)

thacarter said:


> Pure Shooting Guards
> 1)Kobe
> 2)Carter
> 3)Wade
> ...


How can you make a post about "pure shooting guards" and then stick Piece in there? He's a small forward. And if you really wanted to talk about "pure" shooting guards, it would go something like this:

1)Kobe
2)Ray
3)Carter
4)Hamilton
5)Redd
6)Wade...


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

thacarter said:


> Pure Shooting Guards
> 1)Kobe
> 2)Carter
> 3)Wade
> ...


lol, you say that then look at your title...........

there is more to the shooting guard position then shooting 3's, which you obviously fail to realize. Yes, Wade is a better overall player and he PLAYS/starts at the sg position, so he is a better sg. You are making absolutely no sense

there is zero way to rationalize putting Carter over Wade, which is what you are trying to do. This whole shooting thing doesnt work as that is one part of a multifaceted game.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> lol, you say that then look at your title...........
> 
> there is more to the shooting guard position then shooting 3's, which you obviously fail to realize. Yes, Wade is a better overall player and he PLAYS/starts at the sg position, so he is a better sg. You are making absolutely no sense
> 
> *there is zero way to rationalize putting Carter over Wade, which is what you are trying to do. This whole shooting thing doesnt work as that is one part of a multifaceted game*.


Simple Wade plays on the Heat and Vince on the Nets


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> Wally has proven to be a terrible second option, because he struggles against solid man up defenders. He proved to be a good _fourth_ option, but *****ed and moaned the entire time about his touches, his role, his minutes, etc. And, again, if teams rely on offense and defense, Ben's a good offensive player. Wally is mediocre offensively, and a defensive disaster. Point Bengo.
> 
> * Whatever, your opinion. I stated my thoughts.*
> 
> ...


It really doesn't make all that much sense to keep going back and forth. We're both clearly in our stances.


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## LamarButler (Apr 16, 2005)

> Originally posted by *Air Fly*
> 
> 3. Vince Carter
> 4. Dwyane Wade


Wow, still?


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## Hiro! (Sep 10, 2006)

i dont see anything vince does better than wade/ :angel: plus wade alsmot single handedly won it for the heat so thats + 1 in my book.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

1- Kobe;
2- Wade;
3- T-Mac (if je should be considered a SG)
4- AI.


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

ok...
i looked at daniels stats
he is more of a point guard anyway or maybe combo guard???
thats how tex winters ranks Iverson and Wade, Daniels, Francis...

i like antonio
i think he is really underrated but his stats are not the way to prove it..


anyway
what about Jamal Crawford???

when the Knicks won he averaged like 20 a game...
he is streaky but when he is on he is probably top 10


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

I just find it funny that, despite the apparent notion about Wally's atrocious D, terrible clubhouse demeanor, Pierce having to carry the entire burden every night, et al, that P-2 said he absolutely loves playing with him.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> Simple Wade plays on the Heat and Vince on the Nets


and wade has pretty much every statistical advantage, including the cumulative ones by a large margin. 

#20 to #4 in PER isnt something to be taken lightly. Shows the statistical advantage Wade had over Carter was a huge one......then factor in the finals mvp thing, putting up historical numbers the past 2 postseasons, and it shouldnt be a matter of which player plays for your favorite team....its a matter of what is directly in front of you, and what some people fail to see.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

I'm sorry, I didn't realize Wade vs. Carter was still actually up for debate.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> What are you talking about? I said people are making Gordon something to be built around, when he's not, whereas Wally is a complementary player who can be pieced into an offense better than "Bengo."


The list was purely about rating the shooting guards, and the original poster included one of the worst defensive small forwards in the NBA as a shooting guard. Bengo is a legitimately one of the best sixth men in the NBA. Wally is fungible. Who cares if you can't build around Ben? Since you're admitting that you can't build around Wally, then what we're left with is one of the best sixth men in the NBA, and a small forward that forces you to remake your entire lineup to hide his deficiencies. Point Bengo.



_Dre_ said:


> I'm glad you're able to misunderstand people. I never said anything about building around Wally. I said if you did build around Ben, it would be hard, but Wally is a complementary piece anyway, which is why his deficiencies can be hid better, he's not out a buildaround player. He's a piece, not a complete one, but a more efficient one that Gordon.


You clearly stated that if teams were to devote their forwards to continuously setting screens for Szczerbiak and having their guards look to feed Wally, in short if teams would just pretend that Wally were Rip, that he'd score his 17 efficiently. Hoorah. Rip is legitimately a 20+ per game scorer that can light it up. Wally can't do that. He's a roleplayer that thinks he's an All Star.



_Dre_ said:


> That celtic team wasn't built right in the first place. Wally and Pierce and a bunch of unexperienced undersized forwards isn't gonna get anywhere. Pierce was carrying everybody, not just the oh so horrible Wally


Well, their forwards drew a lot of fouls because Wally's man kept springing free, and Pierce was forced to guard guys like Gilbert Arenas, LeBron James, and Vince Carter night in and night out _while_ being Boston's offense. I'll grant that Szczerbiak's a terrible fit for Boston because the Celtics were weak at the 1/4, and if they'd traded Pierce for defensive help the fans would have rioted. I was personally hoping that they could have completed the Iverson trade, but que sera sera. I guess we're in the Oden sweepstakes. Hoorah.



bballlife said:


> What are you talking about? I stated that he has drawn tough defensive assignments throughout the years. ...
> Reading comprehension.


Here, let me give you a hint, the next time you want to pimp Wally as an _awesome_ defensive guard, write it this way...



bballlife said:


> He has drawn plenty of tough assignments throughout the years, from Jordan to Kobe....and done a decent job* on some of these tough assignments.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

1. Dwyane Wade
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Tracy McGrady
4. Manu Ginobilli
5. Ray Allen
6. Vince Carter
7. Jason Richardson
8. Michael Redd
9. Richard Hamilton
10.Eddie Jones

i think t-mac is the most talented but he needs to stay healthy
Manu is just a great very smart player

Joe Johnson is wayy overrated
Jrich and Redd are exchanged if you want

big difference between 8 and 9 and ever more between 9 and 10
Eddie was top 10 last year he can keep playin like that even though he is old


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

fjkdsi said:


> 1. Dwyane Wade
> 2. Kobe Bryant
> 3. Tracy McGrady
> 4. Manu Ginobilli
> ...


So Manu is a better player than Ray Allen and Vince Carter


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## SheriffKilla (Jan 1, 2004)

**** i don't know to be honest
its tough to rank for me
different situations bring different stats/impact 

i guess you are right
aite put manu two spots down


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't realize Wade vs. Carter was still actually up for debate.


Yeah it's very up to debate. The hype machine around Wade is unbelievable. Carter outplayed him during the season and in the playoffs head to head. Carter put up better overall numbers in the series and playoffs overall. Keep the hype up, but i'm never surrendering to it. I watch both players and I can tell ya Carter is simply better basketball player OVERALL.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

at least it feels good knowing its the same couple of *do not attack other posters* every time.........

keep trying to compare the 20th ranked player in the league to the 4th statistically....especially when the 4th just won finals MVP putting up ridiculous numbers....its completely hilarious, but kind of expected coming from you

guess 4 games mean more than 82? Any little thing to try to rationalize the irrational I guess


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> The list was purely about rating the shooting guards, and the original poster included one of the worst defensive small forwards in the NBA as a shooting guard. Bengo is a legitimately one of the best sixth men in the NBA. Wally is fungible. Who cares if you can't build around Ben? Since you're admitting that you can't build around Wally, then what we're left with is one of the best sixth men in the NBA, and a small forward that forces you to remake your entire lineup to hide his deficiencies. Point Bengo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

*Re: Responses*



RollWithEm said:


> Cuttino also happens to be a poor defensive player. Dunleavy even subs Daniel Ewing in for him in the clutch because of defense. That’s downright embarrassing. Where does he belong? Out of the top 20, that’s where.


His defense has worsened, but he's still not a poor defender, IMNSHO.

As for T-Mac playing SG -- there's a good chance it won't happen. Battier can play PF. The Rockets have Kirk Snyder, Luther Head and Vassilis Spanoulis to play SG. Battier's talents are not utilized very well if he's at PF, but it does give the Rockets four shooters around Yao.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Yeah it's very up to debate.


I see. So Wade vs. Pierce must be still up in the air, too, eh?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Carter is a great player but Wade is better because of his ability to get exactly where he wants on the court, and that is due to his ball handling. When all other things are about equal, from shooting (Vince actually has a good advantage here) to slashing, finishing, passing, etc, it's the ball handling that makes Wade clearly the better player. Vince just doesn't have very good handles for a guard, and it limits how dominant he can be on offense. With great handles, he would be rivaling Kobe for the best guard in the game. As it is, he is still a very good player, top 20 for sure, but he isn't on Wade's level.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Carter is a great player but Wade is better because of his ability to get exactly where he wants on the court, and that is due to his ball handling. When all other things are about equal, from shooting (Vince actually has a good advantage here) to slashing, finishing, passing, etc, it's the ball handling that makes Wade clearly the better player. Vince just doesn't have very good handles for a guard, and it limits how dominant he can be on offense. With great handles, he would be rivaling Kobe for the best guard in the game. As it is, he is still a very good player, top 20 for sure, but he isn't on Wade's level.


 Somebody sees it..


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## Hiro! (Sep 10, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> but he isn't on Wade's level.


wade's ballhandling skills is not that great to overshadow vince's ballhandling. what truly seperates wade from vince is his quickness.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Well, that too..but you almost can't Deny Wade's a better ballhandler. How come Wade has played more point/controlled the ball with Payton and Williams behind him more than Carter with just about noone behind Kidd?


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

how about this........

what truly seperates Wade and Carter is their play on the court (shocker)

you could talk about skills all day, it just doesnt really matter. Rasheed is one of the most talented bigs in the league, and you see where that got him? There is more to playing then skills, and thats where Wade is dominant over Carter. He has the basketball iq to get whatever shots whenever he wants (look at that insane percentage from a lead guard), and when/when not to get his teammates involved (scoring at a high percentage, and assists). 

Carter could shoot 3's. Could fadeaway. Good for him. Too bad he plays at a mediocre level compared to the top guards in the league (Kobe and Wade)


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

bballlife said:


>


What the...

You need help, you really do. :bsmile:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> Well, that too..but you almost can't Deny Wade's a better ballhandler. How come Wade has played more point/controlled the ball with Payton and Williams behind him more than Carter with just about noone behind Kidd?


But thats where you are wrong though. I definitely agree that Wade is quicker than Vince and has better ball handles. BUT Vince certainly plays a lot of point once Kidd goes to the bench.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> But thats where you are wrong though. I definitely agree that Wade is quicker than Vince and has better ball handles. BUT Vince certainly plays a lot of point once Kidd goes to the bench.


 BUT I think Wade has played it more, and in the more important situations, which is why he's controlling the ball down the stretch for the Heat. Not Vince. Though few could honestly control the ball with Kidd on the team at point, it speaks more to me that Wade does it with Payton and Williams, two battle tested veterans, one of which (Payton) was at one point possibly better than Kidd as a point guard.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> BUT I think Wade has played it more, and in the more important situations, which is why he's controlling the ball down the stretch for the Heat. Not Vince. Though few could honestly control the ball with Kidd on the team at point, it speaks more to me that Wade does it with Payton and Williams, two battle tested veterans, one of which (Payton) was at one point possibly better than Kidd as a point guard.


Well in that case, should I use the fact that Vince plays the 3 and 4 better than Wade as an arguement against Wade. He certainly doesnt need point guard handles to play the power position


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## Hiro! (Sep 10, 2006)

truth is wade is not a playmaker in a point guard kind of sense, thats not why he's the designated ballhandler in the heat. only reason why he's primarily handling the ball is because of the offense designed for him. van gundy and riley knows how to use their weapon, and wade certainly knows how to use his. i dont need a detailed an explanation, coz im sure y'all know how it is, he attacks and attacks, no one can barely contain him because of his quickness and reckless approach, etc...


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> Well in that case, should I use the fact that Vince plays the 3 and 4 better than Wade as an arguement against Wade. He certainly doesnt need point guard handles to play the power position


 
We're arguing about SGs. This originated from me arguing Hiro's point about ballhandling, which is an important trait for a SG, moreso than a 3 or 4. The 3 or 4 point is irrelevant to who's the better 2. The Ballhandling is.


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## Hiro! (Sep 10, 2006)

_Dre_ said:


> We're arguing about SGs. This originated from me arguing Hiro's point about ballhandling, which is an important trait for a SG, moreso than a 3 or 4. The 3 or 4 point is irrelevant to who's the better 2. The Ballhandling is.


just to let you know, i never doubted wade's ballhandling skills. i agree with every aspect except i pointed out, to the other poster that what _truly_ seperates wade from vince is not the ballhandling skills but rather his quickness.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> We're arguing about SGs. This originated from me arguing Hiro's point about ballhandling, which is an important trait for a SG, moreso than a 3 or 4. The 3 or 4 point is irrelevant to who's the better 2. The Ballhandling is.


What does Wade playing the point have to do with being a good 2 guard. I thought the primary purpose of a shooting guard was to put the ball in the basket. Every other thing is a bonus. I dont see any difference between you saying he plays the point better than Vince and me saying Vince plays two other positions better than he does.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> What does Wade playing the point have to do with being a good 2 guard. I thought the primary purpose of a shooting guard was to put the ball in the basket. Every other thing is a bonus. I dont see any difference between you saying he plays the point better than Vince and me saying Vince plays two other positions better than he does.


I'm not talking about being a point guard, I'm talking about controlling the ball, which takes good ballhandling, which Wade is more in abundance of then Carter. 

And I totally disagree with you definition of a shooting guard, but that's not really part of this argument.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> BUT I think Wade has played it more, and in the more important situations, which is why he's controlling the ball down the stretch for the Heat. Not Vince. Though few could honestly control the ball with Kidd on the team at point, it speaks more to me that Wade does it with Payton and Williams, two battle tested veterans, one of which (Payton) was at one point possibly better than Kidd as a point guard.


I thought there were no successful teams in the NBA built around combo guards? Shouldn't you be on the Vince side of this debate after that claim? :bsmile:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> I'm not talking about being a point guard, I'm talking about controlling the ball, which takes good ballhandling, which Wade is more in abundance of then Carter.
> 
> And I totally disagree with you definition of a shooting guard, but that's not really part of this argument.


But I did agree that its what differentiates both players. Thats also why Vince has a better offensive arsenal. Because unlike Wade, he cant depend on his handles to get easy points.

I am curious as to what you think the qualities of a shooting guard are


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> I thought there were no successful teams in the NBA built around combo guards? Shouldn't you be on the Vince side of this debate after that claim? :bsmile:


 No, because Wade is far more capable of playing point than Gordon IMO. And he's not that small. The combo guard argument for me was less about just being a combo guard than size. In reality, Lebron was a combo guard when he came in the league, but he was big so it was a plus. AI is a small combo guard and it's a headache.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> No, because Wade is far more capable of playing point than Gordon IMO. And he's not that small. The combo guard argument for me was less about just being a combo guard than size.


The extra inch doesn't make much of a difference. Or so I'm told... :bsmile:


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

I like Vince as a ballhandler bringing the ball up the court, I think he can do that....It's just Vince isn't as coordinated when it comes to dribble penetration moves, his arsenal isn't that wide, he relies more on athleticism (which is fine, it's gotten him this far)


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> But I did agree that its what differentiates both players. Thats also why Vince has a better offensive arsenal. Because unlike Wade, he cant depend on his handles to get easy points.
> 
> I am curious as to what you think the qualities of a shooting guard are


Why wouldn't a shooting guard want to make easy points? Creating a shot is one of the more important aspects of being a shooting guard. You're making it sound like Carter gets the edge because he can hit the harder shot, which is a fluke. 

Carter may have a better arsenal, but it's less effective than Wade's combo of speed, power, and will to get to the basket. Similarly, I'm sure some Centers have more technique than Shaq, but his raw power was/is more effective than their skillsets.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

ehmunro said:


> The extra inch doesn't make much of a difference. Or so I'm told... :bsmile:


But his ability to play bigger does. Plus Wade is a much stronger package than Gordon, or so I'm told...bottomline you think Gordon's better, I think Wally's better. I don't see much that will change either viewpoint, so it makes no sense to harp on it :whoknows:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> Why wouldn't a shooting guard want to make easy points? Creating a shot is one of the more important aspects of being a shooting guard. You're making it sound like Carter gets the edge because he can hit the harder shot, which is a fluke.
> 
> Carter may have a better arsenal, but it's less effective than Wade's combo of speed, power, and will to get to the basket. Similarly, I'm sure some Centers have more technique than Shaq, but his raw power was/is more effective than their skillsets.


You are comparing a 30 year old Vince to a 24 year old Wade. Lets not forget that Vince has also been hit wit a slew of leg injuries, of course he wont move as fast as Wade. He had to develop all those other moves to find ways to score. Definitely Wade's style of play is very effective, but Vince is just as good a scorer, matter of fact a better scorer than Wade.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> You are comparing a 30 year old Vince to a 24 year old Wade. Lets not forget that Vince has also been hit wit a slew of leg injuries, of course he wont move as fast as Wade. He had to develop all those other moves to find ways to score. Definitely Wade's style of play is very effective, but Vince is just as good a scorer, matter of fact a better scorer than Wade.


That argument is null and void. If you want to compare the old VC to Wade, then maybe that's valid, but injuries are just something that happens. That doesn't change the fact that at this point Carter is slower and less effective penetrating than Wade. No matter what the case is, Wade's penetration ability, coupled with his improving midrange/off the dribble pullup beats out Carter's arsenal, which, while maybe diverse, is just slightly less effective. How did we go from ballhandling to scoring anyway? They're really about the same scoring, like Patchwork said, the difference is in ballhandling.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> That argument is null and void. If you want to compare the old VC to Wade, then maybe that's valid, but injuries are just something that happens. That doesn't change the fact that at this point Carter is slower and less effective penetrating than Wade. No matter what the case is, Wade's penetration ability, coupled with his improving midrange/off the dribble pullup beats out Carter's arsenal, which, while maybe diverse, is just slightly less effective. How did we go from ballhandling to scoring anyway? They're really about the same scoring, like Patchwork said, the difference is in ballhandling.


Wade's arsenal beats out Vince's thats news to me. On any given night, Vince with this beat out arsenal is capable of getting of 50 points. Last I checked, Wade hasnt even had a single 50 point game.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

HB said:


> Wade's arsenal beats out Vince's thats news to me. On any given night, Vince with this beat out arsenal is capable of getting of 50 points. Last I checked, Wade hasnt even had a single 50 point game.


This fact seems to always be the argument Nets fans revert back when comparisoning VC to another player. We all understand VC has an arsenal of scoring abilities, but that alone isn't an indication of who is the better player. I thought Wade handled this comparison last year?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

ralaw said:


> This fact seems to always be the argument Nets fans revert back when comparisoning VC to another player. We all understand VC can score, but that alone isn't any indication of who is the better player. I thought Wade handled this comparison last year?


You do know that was a response to the statement above. Go back a couple of pages to my original list, I have Wade above Vince.

Just to take this even farther, on a 49 win team was it really necessary for Vince to score more points, rack up more assists and get more rebounds?

In the playoffs when he needed to step his game up, he proved he still could put up guady numbers across the board.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> Wade's arsenal beats out Vince's thats news to me. On any given night, Vince with this beat out arsenal is capable of getting of 50 points. Last I checked, Wade hasnt even had a single 50 point game.


 Are you arguing Wade is incapable? Superlative things like 50 point games don't matter, because they're too rare to be taken into serious account. Tony Delk had a 50 point game :whoknows:. What matters more is being able to consistently score within the 25-30 point range, which they both can do, but if I take my chances, I take Wade to get that for me. I just trust his penetration, speed, and *ball-handling* to do it. 

Two more questions:

How did we get from ballhandling to scoring? 

Why did you feel the need to exploit a small phrase and blow them up? Was there really a need to make such a point about Carter's "beat out" arsenal? I said "slightly less", not "way better". And furthermore, I followed that with 



> They're really about the same scoring, like Patchwork said, the difference is in ballhandling.


But you conveniently missed that. The discussion we were having was ballhandling, which I guess then lead to how Wade's ballhandling contributes to one of his advantages, his ability to penetrate.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

HB said:


> You are comparing a 30 year old Vince to a 24 year old Wade. Lets not forget that Vince has also been hit wit a slew of leg injuries, of course he wont move as fast as Wade. He had to develop all those other moves to find ways to score. Definitely Wade's style of play is very effective, but Vince is just as good a scorer, matter of fact a better scorer than Wade.


 How have we suddenly come to the conclusion that Carter is a better scorer then Wade? Wade last year scored in terms of PPG to equal that of any of Carter's highest PPG average. In addition Wade's career TS% is 30 points higher then Carter's TS%. There is little to no statiscal evidence to indicate that Carter is a better scorer then Wade looking at any season of Carter


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

HB said:


> You do know that was a response to the statement above. Go back a couple of pages to my original list, I have Wade above Vince.
> 
> Just to take this even farther, on a 49 win team was it really necessary for Vince to score more points, rack up more assists and get more rebounds?
> 
> In the playoffs when he needed to step his game up, he proved he still could put up guady numbers across the board.


My fault....carry on.... :biggrin:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> Are you arguing Wade is incapable? Superlative things like 50 point games don't matter, because they're too rare to be taken into serious account. Tony Delk had a 50 point game :whoknows:. What matters more is being able to consistently score within the 25-30 point range, which they both can do, but if I take my chances, I take Wade to get that for me. I just trust his penetration, speed, and *ball-handling* to do it.
> 
> Two more questions:
> 
> ...



But it seems you are the one skirting around the issue. I already told you Wade's ballhandling and quickness differentiates his game from Vince's. And of course those two facts have everything to do with scoring, its what makes one more effective than the other.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> But it seems you are the one skirting around the issue. I already told you Wade's ballhandling and quickness differentiates his game from Vince's. And of course those two facts have everything to do with scoring, its what makes one more effective than the other.


Well yes, it's what makes Wade more effective than Carter


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Pioneer10 said:


> How have we suddenly come to the conclusion that Carter is a better scorer then Wade? Wade last year scored in terms of PPG to equal that of any of Carter's highest PPG average. In addition Wade's career TS% is 30 points higher then Carter's TS%. There is little to no statiscal evidence to indicate that Carter is a better scorer then Wade looking at any season of Carter


Meh..not too big on stats anyways. I'll go by the qoute in Dre's sig. Wade is capable of having triple double type numbers on any given night, Vince is capable of putting up huge scoring numbers.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

Pioneer10 said:


> How have we suddenly come to the conclusion that Carter is a better scorer then Wade? Wade last year scored in terms of PPG to equal that of any of Carter's highest PPG average. In addition Wade's career TS% is 30 points higher then Carter's TS%. There is little to no statiscal evidence to indicate that Carter is a better scorer then Wade looking at any season of Carter


pretty much

saying carter is a better scorer is nonsense. Wade putsmore points up, and does it more effectively and efficiently....is their anything more to scoring then that

oh yea, Vince could make 3's. How could I forget :rotf:


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## thacarter (Mar 27, 2006)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> how about this........
> 
> what truly seperates Wade and Carter is their play on the court (shocker)
> 
> ...


wake the **** up..Carter plays at a mediocre level compared to who?Wade?lol VC has owned him the past 2 seasons, Wade should thank Shaq for all the space he gets to maneuvre around...Not only did Carter make a mockery of Wade by dropping 51points on him, he singlehandedly killed him in every game of the season and playoffs last year...its funny to me, lets take wade's 17 freethrows a game and see how much he scores,dude relys HEAVILY on refs to score...once again,when it comes to the SHOOTING GUARD position,Wade CANNOT touch Carter


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## NetsFan (Aug 9, 2005)

thacarter said:


> wake the **** up..Carter plays at a mediocre level compared to who?Wade?lol VC has owned him the past 2 seasons, Wade should thank Shaq for all the space he gets to maneuvre around...Not only did Carter make a mockery of Wade by dropping 51points on him, he singlehandedly killed him in every game of the season and playoffs last year...its funny to me, lets take wade's 17 freethrows a game and see how much he scores,dude relys HEAVILY on refs to score...once again,when it comes to the SHOOTING GUARD position,Wade CANNOT touch Carter


 :yes: 

preachim thacarter


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

thacarter said:


> wake the **** up..Carter plays at a mediocre level compared to who?Wade?lol VC has owned him the past 2 seasons, Wade should thank Shaq for all the space he gets to maneuvre around...Not only did Carter make a mockery of Wade by dropping 51points on him, he singlehandedly killed him in every game of the season and playoffs last year...its funny to me, lets take wade's 17 freethrows a game and see how much he scores,dude relys HEAVILY on refs to score...once again,when it comes to the SHOOTING GUARD position,Wade CANNOT touch Carter


#20 to #4....doesnt take a rocket scientist here to figure out who had a better season. Does #20 play mediocre compared to #4. Hmm, I wonder. Wade led Vince in pretty much every single statistical category last season. Looks like somebody else needs to wake up from a dream they were having 5 years ago, when Carter was actually near the top of the league, because he certainly isnt now. 

oh, and in the playoffs series, Wade led Vince in rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, fg%, 3pt%, 3 pointers made, ft%. All Carter led in were points, but what does that mean if he does it much less efficiently? Oh, also turnovers- thats Wade's main weakness, but not a big deal with how much he handles the ball. 

its a myth Carter had a better series, not that 1 series would mean much anyway compared to a full season where the stats werent even close.

oh, and preach Carter scoring 51 while talking around refs with Wade.....Carter had over 20 ft's in that game......oh, so that game doesnt matter according to your "logic". And Wade has Shaq? Cool. Carter has Kidd. And not to mention Wade takes over every 4th quarter and has won 8 of the last 9 playoff games vs. Carter.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

NetsFan said:


> :yes:
> 
> preachim thacarter


Im not the one going against pretty much every statistic and sense of logic available, or basing a season on a couple games..........vince fans love to do that for some reason

same couple Vince fans every time, going against everybody else on the board....I wonder why.


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## AIFAN3 (Sep 17, 2005)

It's funny Vince fans argue about what Vince can do than what he actually does... Sure he can be better than Wade when Vince is on the top of his game and when he's motivated to destroy he can rank among the elite 2's in the league. But how often do we see that Vince?


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

AIFAN3 said:


> It's funny Vince fans argue about what Vince can do than what he actually does... Sure he can be better than Wade when Vince is on the top of his game and when he's motivated to destroy he can rank among the elite 2's in the league. But how often do we see that Vince?


its definately a talent vs. results thing with Vince

sure Vince could score in a multitude of ways, but does that make him a better scorer then somebody who scores more points more efficiently?

he is basically the Rasheed Wallace of sg's. People drool because of those skills, but he doesnt get it done on the court to rank with the tops at the position

you are never going to here me say Vince isnt immensely talented- because he is. He just doesnt use all of it, and show all of it on the court night in and night out, like the tops at the position do- Kobe and Wade.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I love how people like to hate on scorers, then boil down a debate between two all-star 2s to scoring. I tried to bring other aspects into the debate but I got told they weren't necessary :whoknows:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> Im not the one going against pretty much every statistic and sense of logic available, or basing a season on a couple games..........vince fans love to do that for some reason
> 
> same couple Vince fans every time, going against everybody else on the board....I wonder why.


I'd love you to answer this question



> Just to take this even farther, on a 49 win team was it really necessary for Vince to score more points, rack up more assists and get more rebounds


I take it if Vince had higher numbers in those categories during the regular season, then that would make him a better player lol


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## AIFAN3 (Sep 17, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> its definately a talent vs. results thing with Vince
> 
> sure Vince could score in a multitude of ways, but does that make him a better scorer then somebody who scores more points more efficiently?
> 
> ...


To be honest I think Vince may be one of the biggest wastes of talent the league has ever scene. To me he's a bigger waste of talent than Rasheed Wallace. At least Wallace can say he was a major contributor to a Championship team. Vince can yet to say that. For a guy who can take it to the rim and be unstoppable at it with his spectacular array of moves, it blows your mind to see him jack up 20 and 30 foot fadeaways.


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## Real (Aug 3, 2005)

Aside from comparing Carter to Wade, it's really not far-fetched to say he could have a real MVP year this year. It's a contract year, he has one year of having Kidd with him under his belt, and I'm sure he's a little bitter of how the playoffs ended for him. So in that sense I'm excited to see what he can bring to the table this year.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> I'd love you to answer this question
> 
> 
> 
> I take it if Vince had higher numbers in those categories during the regular season, then that would make him a better player lol


but he wasnt close to, and hasnt been the last 2 seasons..............If he had the comparable numbers, a comparison would definately be possible....... they arent. 

as for the question, its a laughable excuse for his mediocre season. His team was 4th in the east in the regular season and were also 4th best in the playoffs....its not like his team was the best and didnt need production from him........they were actually a really bad offensive team (24th in scoring, 27th in fg%)


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> but he wasnt close to, and hasnt been the last 2 seasons..............If he had the comparable numbers, a comparison would definately be possible....... they arent.
> 
> as for the question, its a laughable excuse for his mediocre season. His team was 4th in the east in the regular season and were also 4th best in the playoffs....its not like his team was the best and didnt need production from him........they were actually a really bad offensive team (24th in league)


I dont see exactly how that answers my question. The highest rank the Nets could have gotten during the regular season was still going to be 3rd. Point being he didnt need to put up the type of numbers Wade did considering he was playing with 3 other guys that had the ball in their hands a fair amount of times. Are you telling me Wade would pup the same scoring numbers and assist numbers if he played with Kidd and Jefferson

I dont even need to elaborate on his playoff performances, there was significant different in his regular season numbers and playoff numbers. What more can you ask of your star players than to step their game up when the games matter. What killed the Nets wasnt production from their stars, it was a bad bench or lack of one for that matter.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> Point being he didnt need to put up the type of numbers Wade did considering he was playing with 3 other guys that had the ball in their hands a fair amount of times. Are you telling me Wade would pup the same scoring numbers and assist numbers if he played with Kidd and Jefferson


definately.....do you remeber what people said about the Heat with having too many guys that need the ball?

wade put these numbers up with Shaq, Jwill, Walker, Posey, Zo, Payton, Haslem on the team....the thing is, he stuck out head and shoulders above these really good players who are used to being the man (especially shaq and walker), and his play demanded that even with other all stars, nobody is going to have the ball as much as Wade in his hands......wade was the all star of the stars

not being able to stick out above Kidd and Jefferson as to who is deserving of controlling the offense.....not to much of a compliment (and an even worse arguement when a lot of Net fans consider Kidd the best player/leader of that team). 

see, what you said is that the Nets didnt need the extra production from Vince....they were 24th in the league in offense.....they needed it, and he didnt provide it.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Real said:


> Aside from comparing Carter to Wade, it's really not far-fetched to say he could have a real MVP year this year. It's a contract year, he has one year of having Kidd with him under his belt, and I'm sure he's a little bitter of how the playoffs ended for him. So in that sense I'm excited to see what he can bring to the table this year.


 
Carter has had a lot of oppurtunities to be bitter and respond to adversity. The best he's been in a period like that is when he first got to NJ. That's probably MVP caliber, so you're right . I quoted this to try and prove you wrong..


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> definately.....do you remeber what people said about the Heat with having too many guys that need the ball?
> 
> wade put these numbers up with Shaq, Jwill, Walker, Posey, Zo, Payton, Haslem on the team....the thing is, he stuck out head and shoulders above these really good players who are used to being the man (especially shaq and walker), and his play demanded that even with other all stars, nobody is going to have the ball as much as Wade in his hands......wade was the all star of the stars
> 
> ...


Dude how many points exactly would he have provided on that Nets team to be enough. Even Kobe's 35 points per would only significantly increase their production. Bottom line is WITHOUT a bench there really isnt a way that team could have succeeded. You can not count on 3 or 4 guys as your sole offense. Vince averaged 24 plus per during the season, and 30 plus per during the playoffs. Those 6 points different wouldnt have really mattered during the regular season as it would still be the same problem. See what am getting at???


----------



## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> Dude how many points exactly would he have provided on that Nets team to be enough. Even Kobe's 35 points per would only significantly increase their production. Bottom line is WITHOUT a bench there really isnt a way that team could have succeeded. You can not count on 3 or 4 guys as your sole offense. Vince averaged 24 plus per during the season, and 30 plus per during the playoffs. Those 6 points different wouldnt have really mattered during the regular season as it would still be the same problem. See what am getting at???


ot- its kind of funny that Net fans now are using the same arguement that I used before last season as to why the Nets were not contenders- no bench and only 3 players..... :laugh: I got called an idiot for that, and now all Net fans are using it, and you as an excuse for Carters lack of production :laugh: Kind of funny..........

anyway, you bringing up that the Nets had more guys that needed the ball in their hands- is insane. EVen more insane that in the next sentence you say they only have 3 players.....oh, so Vince had to share the ball more because of the great players around him that needed the ball (excuse for lack of production), and then in the next sentence that he didnt have close to enough of a good around team around him (excuse for losing again). Hilarious double standard you have flowing....and even worse when your points are false (Wade had the team that "needed" the ball- Shaq, Jwill, Walker, Payton, Posey- nuff said)


----------



## Saint Baller (May 3, 2006)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> definately.....do you remeber what people said about the Heat with having too many guys that need the ball?
> *
> wade put these numbers up with Shaq, Jwill, Walker, Posey, Zo, Payton, Haslem on the team....*the thing is, he stuck out head and shoulders above these really good players who are used to being the man (especially shaq and walker), and his play demanded that even with other all stars, nobody is going to have the ball as much as Wade in his hands......wade was the all star of the stars
> 
> ...



You forgot the NBA refs, lol.. just kidding... it was something I had to do.


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## thacarter (Mar 27, 2006)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> #20 to #4....doesnt take a rocket scientist here to figure out who had a better season. Does #20 play mediocre compared to #4. Hmm, I wonder. Wade led Vince in pretty much every single statistical category last season. Looks like somebody else needs to wake up from a dream they were having 5 years ago, when Carter was actually near the top of the league, because he certainly isnt now.
> 
> oh, and in the playoffs series, Wade led Vince in rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, fg%, 3pt%, 3 pointers made, ft%. All Carter led in were points, but what does that mean if he does it much less efficiently? Oh, also turnovers- thats Wade's main weakness, but not a big deal with how much he handles the ball.
> 
> ...


**** an efficiency if ur getting DOUBLED and TRIPLED all the time, just like ur Coach Riley made his players do..Wade doesnt even face constant double teams like any of the other elite guards in the league thanks to the fatman in the paint...so please spare me all ur efficiency bull****..Carter>>>Wade in every single game the heat and Nets played.
..wade=single coverage , VC= double and triple teams and yet still lit up your team


----------



## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

:eek8:


thacarter said:


> **** an efficiency if ur getting DOUBLED and TRIPLED all the time, just like ur Coach Riley made his players do..Wade doesnt even face constant double teams like any of the other elite guards in the league thanks to the fatman in the paint...so please spare me all ur efficiency bull****..Carter>>>Wade in every single game the heat and Nets played.
> ..wade=single coverage , VC= double and triple teams and yet still lit up your team


 :rotf: *keep it nonpersonal*

you never fail to amaze

and btw, Wade had a better playoff series then Carter.....not that it matters all that much since it was only 5 games due to the Nets suckiness (compared to the undeniable stats of the 82 game season), but better in ever single category other then points.......

and no consistent doubles :eek8: maybe thats why you are saying Carter....you must never watch the heat

this is not carter from 5 years ago.....its the mediocre version that plays today.


----------



## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

these guys are not comparable, for this simple reason

Dwyane Wade- *27.2 ppg*, 5.7 rpg, *6.7 apg*, *26.95 EFF*, *49.5%*, *1.95 spg*, *.77 bpg, 49.9 efg%, 57.7 TS%, 28.0 PER (#4 in league )*
Vince Carter- 24.2ppg, *5.8 rpg*, 4.3 apg, 21.00 EFF, 43.0%, 1.19 SPG, .67 bpg, 47.1 efg%, 53.6TS%, 21.6 PER (#20 in league)

not close...................keep trying to deny these facts all you like. The stats dont lie.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

playoff series, so all the people could see the myths people are trying to spread as truths

Carter played better then Wade in the series? 
Carter-*30.2 ppg*, 4.8 apg, 5.6 rpg, 47% fg, 5-25 (20%) 3 p %, 1.0 spg, .4 bpg, 75.5% ft, *2.8 to*
Wade- 27.6 ppg, *6.6 apg, 6.0 rpg, 49% fg, 6-9 (67%) 3 pt %, 2.4 spg, .6 bpg, 79% ft*, 3.6 to

its a myth

(and I am done with this....here are my rankings....isnt worth arguing with a couple people who would say Carter is better then Jesus/Allah/God if they had the chance.....no form of reason works on these people...pisses me off that some people cant watch basketball and realize whats been in front of them for 2 full seasons (which every stat imaginable back up. #20 to #4, and people still arguing :curse: ).....quote me all you want, but no more responses from me in this thread)

1. Kobe
2. Wade
3. Tmac
4. Ray Allen
5. Carter
6. JJ
7. Redd


----------



## sic_D (May 5, 2005)

1. Kobe
2. Wade
....
....
Paul Pierce
Vince


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

1) Kobe
2) Wade
3) Carter
4) Allen
5) Richardson
6) Johnson
7) Ginobili
8) Redd
9) Hamilton

McGrady has played SF for the past 2 seasons and thats not gonna change this year.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> Hilarious double standard you have flowing....and even worse when your points are false (Wade had the team that "needed" the ball- Shaq, Jwill, Walker, Payton, Posey- nuff said)


the more options the team has, the less pressure the opposing team puts on the star player.

Your point that Vince is not producing as much as Wade, despite Wade having many more scorers on his team is mostly false. You are right in a way, as Vince hardly 'demands' for the ball like many superstars would do. Sometimes I wish he would do that. For the most part, the more scorers your team has, the more players the other team has to cover, and less pressure is applied to the main scorer, which in this case is Dwyane Wade.

Pat Riley had said that they made videos of Vince's games against them in the season and studied them. His game plan was to stop Vince, and only Vince. Despite that, Vince averaged 30 points in that series.

I also want to say that I am NOT arguing Vince > Wade, because as much as I hate Wade, Vince, at this stage of his career is just not as good as Dwyane Wade. And I admit it. I will say however, that Vince Carter at 24 years old was far superior to Dwyane Wade at 24 years old.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> and no consistent doubles :eek8: maybe thats why you are saying Carter....you must never watch the heat
> 
> this is not carter from 5 years ago.....its the mediocre version that plays today.


the number of double teams Vince Carter recieves is at least double the number that Wade receives.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

tone wone said:


> McGrady has played SF for the past 2 seasons and thats not gonna change this year.


 
It sh/could with Battier coming in actually.


----------



## coco killer (Mar 5, 2006)

HKF said:


> Szczerbiak sure as hell isn't better than Ben Gordon, not at this stage in his career anyway.



Wally plays the three doesnt he?


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

1. Somehow Isiah Thomas


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## LebronJamesownsyou (Sep 11, 2006)

f22egl said:


> 1. Somehow Isiah Thomas


i dont get it :thinking:


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## elsaic15 (May 24, 2006)

the efficiency argument of wade vs carter is apples and oranges, at least until shaq retires. as someone said, vc has faced 10x the double and triple teams that wade has ever even had to sniff. wade has shooters all around him his whole career to help pump up his assists. how friggin easy is it to get a assist when you got 3 point shooters everywhere, or you jus dump it down to shaq for a dunk. carter and wade play different roles for their teams, looking at only stats and claiming it is the gospel is the sign of a ignorant fan


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

look at how the defenders converge on vince cause they dont have to worry so much about the guys on the perimter.

in this 1st one, neither kidd or rj is on the floor. I think its like Wright, Robinson, Vaughn and Jackson? not sure. Anyways only Clifford Robinson is a slight outside thread in that terrible lineup.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/lPADmsJjSM4"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/lPADmsJjSM4" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ngujkSSj6aM"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ngujkSSj6aM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

That is pure skill right there.

Now look at how Dampier has to stick with Shaq to avoid the easy dunk, and how Wade's defender is the only one on him and there's no help.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6i1QPXRSvYQ"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6i1QPXRSvYQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Now a very similar play, look how Zo comes to help on Vince, cause Collins is a piece of **** on offense.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FRwiIL3YBtU"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FRwiIL3YBtU" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Of course I am not saying this happens every time, but the differences are clearly there. Vince gets a lot more attention than Dwyane Wade.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Fruitcake you must know that WSE never pays attention to stuff like that.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

well i do my best

here's another one

Look at how RJ has to stay with Posey to avoid the open three.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vvCgdtgkWFk"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vvCgdtgkWFk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>


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## NetsFan (Aug 9, 2005)

fruitcake has shown the difference between how hard wade works for points when he slashs and how hard vince has to work when he slashs


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Damn, video evidence. I'd never thought I'd see the day...


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

NetsFan said:


> fruitcake has shown the difference between how hard wade works for points when he slashs and how hard vince has to work when he slashs


not to mention, Riley is a far superior coach who can exploit the fact that his team has many more options and Shaquille O'neal. Where Frank always runs these stupid iso plays for Vince and lets him drive through 5 people.

Look at the first part of this video.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5HfxbonTweE"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5HfxbonTweE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

We did see this play many times in the finals. See how Dampier has to stay on Shaq? That leaves Wade one on one against Daniels, and Marquis is no match for Wade. Whereas if Frank were to run the same play, Zo or Shaq would come help on Vince cause Krstic and especially Collins are not strong finishers at the basket.

Again, I am not downplaying how good Wade is. In fact, if you read one of my previous posts in this thread, I said that Wade is better than Vince Carter. (yes i did say that).

All I am trying to prove is that Wade doesn't face close to the amount of pressure that Vince faces.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

Two more.

Diop waits till the last possible second before contesting Wade's shot. (cause he is on Shaq)

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/pySUyrO-Wk0"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/pySUyrO-Wk0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Watch Dirk. He has to stay on Posey and can't contest Wade's shot.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-BeLbQsS3iw"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-BeLbQsS3iw" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Thats actaully ALL the videos from youtube with the search term "wade drive". Not saying this sort of thing happens every time, but certainly a lot of times.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

If all you guys do agree Wade is better, why are you going through such dramatic debate to prove Carter's better in _one_ aspect?


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Because we still have delusional fans who actually believe Carter is a better player.


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## thacarter (Mar 27, 2006)

_Dre_ said:


> If all you guys do agree Wade is better, why are you going through such dramatic debate to prove Carter's better in _one_ aspect?


VC>>>Wade


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

P-Dub34 said:


> Because we still have delusional fans who actually believe Carter is a better player.


Mind addressing any of the points fruitcake carefully put up there instead of throwing out labels and generalizations


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

_Dre_ said:


> If all you guys do agree Wade is better, why are you going through such dramatic debate to prove Carter's better in _one_ aspect?


My guess is so that they can rest their hats on something and sleep better at night.


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

HB said:


> Fruitcake you must know that WSE never pays attention to stuff like that.



We all should know that by now. WSE lives by hype and statistics.

Dwayne Wade is very overrated, BTW. Take Shaq away from the Heat and he'll be a sitting duck. His FG% will drop tremendously and I am still a beleiver in that the refs favor Wade over the rest of the league.


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## Pain5155 (May 28, 2006)

fruitcake said:


> Two more.
> 
> Diop waits till the last possible second before contesting Wade's shot. (cause he is on Shaq)
> 
> ...



Wade is up there with Kobe. End of Discussion.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jizzy said:


> We all should know that by now. WSE lives by *hype* and statistics.


I was trying to type an answer to ralaws' post adressing player's hype, then thought it was not the better word to describe it. Now you've made me think about it again...

I guess posters get a little blinded by player's hype, and that clouds their posts a bit.
Some examples:

- Many people refuse to accept that Wade has aproached Kobe's level at SG;
- Some people refuse to accept that KG is nowadays NOT an INDISPUTED Top-5 player in the Nba;
- Same with Vince not being the Toronto vince (pre-injury);
- Same with Shaq's wearing down, etc., etc.

I guess that's just the way it is...


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

I'm not getting in to this because no matter how often they are proven wrong, no matter what kind of argument is leveled, they don't listen.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

P-Dub34 said:


> I'm not getting in to this because no matter how often they are proven wrong, no matter what kind of argument is leveled, they don't listen.


 If we concede that Wade performs amazing athletic feats somehow easier than Carter will they stop?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

P-Dub34 said:


> I'm not getting in to this because no matter how often they are proven wrong, no matter what kind of argument is leveled, they don't listen.


Well I fail to see how exactly anyone can prove wrong the fact that defenses focus on both guys differently. I also fail to see how exactly it can be proven wrong that one guy plays with the most dominant player in the game and the other doesnt.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> Well I fail to see how exactly anyone can prove wrong the fact that defenses focus on both guys differently. I also fail to see how exactly it can be proven wrong that one guy plays with the most dominant player in the game and the other doesnt.


 ...but you still think Wade's better. Right?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> ...but you still think Wade's better. Right?


Wade had a better season and I believe this ranking was based on that, wasnt it?


----------



## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> I also fail to see how exactly it can be proven wrong that one guy plays with the most dominant player in the game and the other doesnt.


Shaq the most dominant player in the NBA this year? You're really, really reaching.

Wade put up superior numbers in almost every single category, played a HUGE role in turning the Heat around after people were writing them off, was absolutely dominant in the playoffs, clutch, Finals MVP, etc. That's pretty much all I need.

As I said before, you say Carter's better than Wade then you need to open up the discussion for guys like Pierce and Anthony (both had superior seasons than Carter) being better than Wade, which would never happen on this board and shouldn't, because Flash is the better basketball player.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

P-Dub34 said:


> Shaq the most dominant player in the NBA this year? You're really, really reaching.
> 
> Wade put up superior numbers in almost every single category, played a HUGE role in turning the Heat around after people were writing them off, was absolutely dominant in the playoffs, clutch, Finals MVP, etc. That's pretty much all I need.


Heat better team than Nets. End of story. Regarding Shaq, lol take him out of the game and see if it makes Wade's job easier or harder


----------



## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Wow. You've got something better than that, right?

At least Air Fly pieces together a compelling argument instead of simply stating "end of story."



> Regarding Shaq, lol take him out of the game and see if it makes Wade's job easier or harder


Wade was dominant with and without O'Neal on the floor.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

P-Dub34 said:


> Wow. You've got something better than that, right?
> 
> At least Air Fly pieces together a compelling argument instead of simply stating "end of story."
> 
> ...


Dude I already posed a bunch of questions two or three pages before this one that went unanswered. Its bothersome putting up questions that people will ignore


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

P-Dub34 said:


> Wow. You've got something better than that, right?
> 
> At least Air Fly pieces together a compelling argument instead of simply stating "end of story."
> 
> ...


Really, mind telling me what the Heat's record was with and without Shaq. Thanks!


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

You've been so caught up with focusing on individual accomplishments that I find it ironic that you're bringing teams into this now when it supports your point. Poorly done, I'm afraid.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> Wade had a better season and I believe this ranking was based on that, wasnt it?


 
Now you're trying to twist the argument to Wade just being better than Carter last year? You've bended it from Carter having a better arsenal, to him being a better scorer, to him having more defensive attention, to Wade just being better last year.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> Now you're trying to twist the argument to Wade just being better than Carter last year? You've bended it from Carter having a better arsenal, to him being a better scorer, to him having more defensive attention, to Wade just being better last year.


Lol I think you are going round in circles.


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

HB said:


> Really, mind telling me what the Heat's record was with and without Shaq. Thanks!


That argument totally ignores team dynamics and chemistry associated with Shaq being on the floor. If any team lost it's second best player (and the one you say is the most dominant force in the NBA) they wouldn't be as successful; however, I guarantee if you put Wade in a similar situation to Kobe he would have a winning record, as the team would have it's identity.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

P-Dub34 said:


> You've been so caught up with focusing on individual accomplishments that I find it ironic that you're bringing teams into this now when it supports your point. Poorly done, I'm afraid.


Wow just wow. So you dont think the fact that both players play on two very distinct teams affects their stats. Like I asked WSE, why exactly would Vince need to put up more points, grab more rebounds or dish out more assists on a team that nearly won 50 games last season.

Now in the playoffs where he needed to step up his game, there was a significant increase in his stats.

Sigh* I sound like a broken record.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> Lol I think you are going round in circles.


  _Me?_ 

You've said all those things within the course of this thread...and what have I said to all of them? Wade is better. That's firm to me.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

ralaw said:


> That argument totally ignores team dynamics and chemistry associated with Shaq being on the floor. If any team lost it's second best player (and the one you say is the most dominant force in the NBA) they would struggle; however, I guarantee if you put Wade in a similar situation to Kobe he would have a winning record, as the team would have it's identity.


Thats all hypothetical. Dwayne Wade is not Kobe, therefore you have no guarantees of such. Didnt the Heat have an 11-10 record without Shaq. Who knows what their record would have been like for a whole season without Shaq. You do realize that AI a much better scorer than Wade didnt make the playoffs this year. Now you could argue without Shaq that the Heat are almost as bad as the sixers.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> _Me?_
> 
> You've said all those things within the course of this thread...and what have I said to all of them? Wade is better. That's firm to me.


You act like any of the stuff said by me is an exaggeration. Please tell me what you find wrong in any of the stuff I listed. Yes or No Vince has a better scoring arsenal. Yes or No Vince faces more defensive attention than Wade. Thanks!


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

HB said:


> Thats all hypothetical. Dwayne Wade is not Kobe, therefore you have no guarantees of such. Didnt the Heat have an 11-10 record without Shaq. Who knows what their record would have been like for a whole season without Shaq.


Focus less on the Kobe comment and more on the chemistry and dynamics comment. It's rather obvious without Shaq the team principles that had been drilled into the players goes out the window. Without Shaq the team has different dynamics, plays and chemistry and this is the point you are conveniently ignoring.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

ralaw said:


> Focus less on the Kobe comment and more on the chemistry and dynamics comment. It's rather obvious without Shaq the team principles that had been drilled into the players goes out the window. Without Shaq the team has different dynamics, plays and chemisty and this is the point you are conveniently ignoring.


Thats also possible. But I really dont see Wade doing any better than what A.I. tried to do on the philly team. Which like I said is pretty comparable to the Heat team without Shaq.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> You act like any of the stuff said by me is an exaggeration. Please tell me what you find wrong in any of the stuff I listed. Yes or No Vince has a better scoring arsenal. Yes or No Vince faces more defensive attention than Wade. Thanks!


But all of these subarguments look silly when you then fall back and admit Wade's better, that was my only point.


----------



## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

_Dre_ said:


> If all you guys do agree Wade is better, why are you going through such dramatic debate to prove Carter's better in _one_ aspect?


one aspect? you call no help defense on wade, no doubling, no converging of defenders, no entire game plans devoted to stopping wade, one aspect?

you are seriously underrating the effect of this one aspect.

And there has always been heated debate over how Vince fans claim he is being doubled every time, and Heat fans claiming the same goes for Wade.

I just wanted to prove to everyone that clearly Dwyane Wade has it easier than Vince Carter. 

Wade is not much much better than Vince, Vince is clearly still in his league, but he is a better player because Vince is now approaching 30 years old, and he went through what, 2 knee surgeries? He can't drive to the basket as much as Wade not because he doesnt have the ability to break down defenders, because he just physically can't.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> But all of these subarguments look silly when you then fall back and admit Wade's better, that was my only point.


Having a better season doesnt necessarily make you a better player


----------



## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

_Dre_ said:


> If all you guys do agree Wade is better, why are you going through such dramatic debate to prove Carter's better in _one_ aspect?


also, is no one here going to admit that after seeing my evidence, vince gets a lot more attention than Wade?

no one?

instead Wade fans like you are arguing different points, that have already been argued in past posts in this thread.


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> Having a better season doesnt necessarily make you a better player


 Exactly...so you voted for Wade but he's not necessarily the better player. If you think Carter's better, which it appears as such, you could've just said it.


----------



## AIFAN3 (Sep 17, 2005)

While I do not agree with all of HB's comments, some of them are right on. Shaq might not be dominant numbers wise but teams need to respect the presence of Shaq and the influence he has both on offense and defense. I agree that Wade does have it easier because Shaq creates more open lanes and can totally draw defenses into him while Carter constantly faces doubles and triples. But it does not escape the fact that while Carter does have it a bit harder, he does not always utilize his talents to best use. Vince can be flat out better than Wade and Pierce and be an equivalent to T-Mac and Kobe.

Why people still argue Wade vs. Carter I do not know, this has been settled a year ago... and the answer is Wade.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

fruitcake said:


> also, is no one here going to admit that after seeing my evidence, vince gets a lot more attention than Wade?
> 
> no one?
> 
> instead Wade fans like you are arguing different points, that have already been argued in past posts in this thread.


Thats what I dont get. I havent seen anyone besides so called Vince fans agree with the videos you posted. And its not like this guys havent seen both players in action. They conveniently ignore those videos and just go on the usual Wade better than all


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

_Dre_ said:


> Now you're trying to twist the argument to Wade just being better than Carter last year? You've bended it from Carter having a better arsenal, to him being a better scorer, to him having more defensive attention, to Wade just being better last year.


why are we even comparing a 24 year old wade to a 30 year old carter in the first place?

why not compare them at the primes of their careers?

vince had a very comparable season to wade's season last year when he was 24 in the 2000-2001 season.

and he did it with _Antonio Davis_ as the second best player on the team. Davis was the ONLY other player on that team to average in double digits.

Wade has a 20 point scorer in Shaq (he did average 20 last year), he has Jason Williams, Walker, and a hell of a lot more options than Vince had.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

fruitcake said:


> why are we even comparing a 24 year old wade to a 30 year old carter in the first place?
> 
> why not compare them at the primes of their careers?
> 
> ...


 Because this topic is about who the best shooting guards are for the upcoming season. Keep it on topic


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> Because this topic is about who the best shooting guards are for the upcoming season. Keep it on topic


Keep it on topic. LOL 

How many posts has it been since we've actually talked about shooting guards not named Vince and Wade?

Clearly this is one of those threads that have been infiltrated by the everlasting Wade and Vince debates.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

fruitcake said:


> also, is no one here going to admit that after seeing my evidence, vince gets a lot more attention than Wade?
> 
> no one?
> 
> instead Wade fans like you are arguing different points, that have already been argued in past posts in this thread.


 
I never came in here to argue. I just wanted to point out that taking a thread this long with frivolous subpoints when you agree that the most important one is true is suspect IMO. It appears you guys clearly like Carter over Wade, but just don't want fully say it.

I was the arguing some of the different points you mentioned in the past posts, but I feel no need to reiterate them when the thread has strayed from what my part in the debate was.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

HB said:


> Thats what I dont get. I havent seen anyone besides so called Vince fans agree with the videos you posted. And its not like this guys havent seen both players in action. They conveniently ignore those videos and just go on the usual Wade better than all


It should be obvious that with Shaq's presence Wade has a it a bit easier, but this doesn't really change the fact that Wade is still the better player and this is people's point. Some of you guys are making it seem as if Shaq's presence has the same affect on Wade's game that he had on Damon Jones' and this isn't the case. Great players like Wade will be great with or without other great players.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

_Dre_ said:


> I never came in here to argue. I just wanted to point out that taking a thread this long with frivolous subpoints when you agree that the most important one is true is suspect IMO. It appears you guys clearly like Carter over Wade, but just don't want fully say it.


I don't see how its that hard to understand.

Wade is better than Vince at this point in their careers.

But clearly you have to admit that Wade has a huge advantage over Vince, and that is his supporting cast.

Are you ever going to admit that?


----------



## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

fruitcake said:


> Keep it on topic. LOL
> 
> How many posts has it been since we've actually talked about shooting guards not named Vince and Wade?
> 
> Clearly this is one of those threads that have been infiltrated by the everlasting Wade and Vince debates.


Actually, I think the infiltration was purposeful, as most of Roll's position ranking threads have boiled down to a few main arguments comparing players. I don't see how we're not on topic, both are shooting guards.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

fruitcake said:


> also, is no one here going to admit that after seeing my evidence, vince gets a lot more attention than Wade?
> 
> no one?
> 
> instead Wade fans like you are arguing different points, that have already been argued in past posts in this thread.


Now, fruitcake, you've put a solid effort on your posts. I dig that. And i thank the fact that, eventhough you've put a whole lot of work in this thread, you still admit Wade is better than VC (eventhough they are in the same league, as you've put it).

That's all fine and dandy. In fact, i've loved watching Vince play in the Nets (cause before all i thought was that he was a tanker and a loser).

Still, others have vented that Shaq's being there helps Wade. while it seems VC has to do it all alone.

That's not correct.

Wade put up (and i'm rounding it up) 38-6-4-2.5-1 in the Finals where Shaq was pretty much not a menace (13-10). as a rookie (with Odom and Butler) he created havok in the playoffs.

And Vince is far from having any help. In fact, i would like to see how he does without the second-best passer in the league setting him up. Let's see him trying to create his own shot 30 times a game.

Bottom line: IMHO, Wade is better. Vince is not FAR behind. But he is not wade's par.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

I came in here to argue about the supporting cast thing. (because that was what was being debated over at the time). I was actually never involved with who is a better player.

So sorry if I swayed this debate too much off-topic.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

fruitcake said:


> I don't see how its that hard to understand.
> 
> Wade is better than Vince at this point in their careers.
> 
> ...


 


Ralaw said:


> It should be obvious that with Shaq's presence Wade has a it a bit easier, but this doesn't really change the fact that Wade is still the better player and this is people's point. Some of you guys are making it seem as if Shaq's presence has the same affect on Wade's game that he had on Damon Jones' and this isn't the case. Great players like Wade will be great with or without other great players.


I admitted it with ralaw's words, which I agree with. Does this nook of the argument mean anything if we both still think Wade's better?


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Read my post: I don't really care about who you argue about as

a) there SG's
b) we're not trying to compare careers

if you want about to talk about a 24 yo Wade vs 24 yo Carter make a new thread and see if people are interested


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Now, fruitcake, you've put a solid effort on your posts. I dig that. And i thank the fact that, eventhough you've put a whole lot of work in this thread, you still admit Wade is better than VC (eventhough they are in the same league, as you've put it).
> 
> That's all fine and dandy. In fact, i've loved watching Vince play in the Nets (cause before all i thought was that he was a tanker and a loser).
> 
> ...


And you sir have already shown that you havent watched Vince enough this season because rarely does Kidd set up Vince for any easy baskets. Most of his points come of iso plays.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

the video comment is directly mentioned towards me, so I will respond (which I said I wouldnt do) to that specific comment

anybody could find specific videos to match what they say......I could find 10 videos of Wade being doubled just like you could of Vince being doubled....isolated plays dont mean much.......I watch the Heat, I know Wade gets doubled constantly (as Vince does also- not denying that, lol). A couple plays where the defense was lax doesnt mean all that much......So in conclusion, your videos mean *dont mask* to me, other then a couple isolated plays picked because of your arguement. I could do the same for my arguement if I wanted to. 

as for "arsenal", as people know this comment I hate most of all. Put it this way, why should how a person score mean more then the fact that they do score? Why should a player who does everything well be called a better "scorer" then one that does a few things great, when that great leads to more scoring on a higher percentage.....it doesnt make sense....whoever scores the best at the best efficiency is the better scorer, not the one who does little things better........wow, Vince could shoot the 3 well, could slash well, could get to the line. Doesnt make up for the things Wade does great, which in his case is slashing. If the slashing gets him more points at a better efficiency, he is a better scorer. Ways to score mean nothing, only the end result does. Pretty direct, right?

perfect example of my above comment- Raef Lafrenz (or insert many other random centers) scores in more ways then shaq (inside, outside, midrange, good at ft's), but shaq does the bulldozing thing great. Who would say Raef is a better scorer then Shaq? You see, it doesnt matter who one scores (when comparing scoring) as long as they get it done at a good percentage.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Now, fruitcake, you've put a solid effort on your posts. I dig that. And i thank the fact that, eventhough you've put a whole lot of work in this thread, you still admit Wade is better than VC (eventhough they are in the same league, as you've put it).
> 
> That's all fine and dandy. In fact, i've loved watching Vince play in the Nets (cause before all i thought was that he was a tanker and a loser).
> 
> ...


fair enough.



> Wade put up (and i'm rounding it up) 38-6-4-2.5-1 in the Finals where Shaq was pretty much not a menace (13-10). as a rookie (with Odom and Butler) he created havok in the playoffs.
> 
> *And Vince is far from having any help. In fact, i would like to see how he does without the second-best passer in the league setting him up. Let's see him trying to create his own shot 30 times a game.*
> 
> Bottom line: IMHO, Wade is better. Vince is not FAR behind. But he is not wade's par.


Shaq's presence as you know can't always be described in stats, so 13 and 10 doesnt really mean much. Anyhow, Wade did prove himself in the playoffs, and thats why I think he is better than Vince, but again, he did have more help than some people make it out to be. 

it is clear again that Vince is regressing at this point of his career, and doesn't have the athletism he once had. Kidd has rejuvenated Vince's career, but Kidd can only do so much when he only has 2 and a half options. (the half being Nenad Krstic who is still developing). 

I agree completely with your 'bottom line'.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

HB said:


> And you sir have already shown that you havent watched Vince enough this season because rarely does Kidd set up Vince for any easy baskets. *Most of his points come of iso plays*.


I respectfuly disagree. I've watched like 4-5 Nets games this season, and although Vinnce does good going one-on-one, he also gets feed a lot in transition offense and getting free for jumpers.


----------



## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

fruitcake said:


> I came in here to argue about the supporting cast thing. (because that was what was being debated over at the time). I was actually never involved with who is a better player.
> 
> So sorry if I swayed this debate too much off-topic.


but you missed the part where HB actually tried to say Vince didnt have as good as statistics because he has to "share the ball with more players". Now he is arguing that "wade has it easier" due to the good players on his team

thats the part that really pissed me off......Vince fans will argue whatever sounds good at the time. Am I not the only one that doesnt see the double standard with this arguement?


----------



## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> the video comment is directly mentioned towards me, so I will respond (which I said I wouldnt do) to that specific comment
> 
> anybody could find specific videos to match what they say......*I could find 10 videos of Wade being doubled just like you could of Vince being doubled....isolated plays dont mean much.....*..I watch the Heat, I know Wade gets doubled constantly (as Vince does also- not denying that, lol). A couple plays where the defense was lax doesnt mean all that much......So in conclusion, *your videos mean shi* to me,* other then a couple isolated plays picked because of your arguement. I could do the same for my arguement if I wanted to.


interesting because i searched 'wade drive' on youtube, and I think i used all of those videos except for 1 which was a fast-break layup.

well if you dont think they mean anything, then i guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Cause I can't go and and every single video of Wade driving last season and compare that with Vince.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> but you missed the part where HB actually tried to say Vince didnt have as good as statistics because he has to "share the ball with more players". Now he is arguing that "wade has it easier" due to the good players on his team
> 
> thats the part that really pissed me off......Vince fans will argue whatever sounds good at the time. Am I not the only one that doesnt see the double standard with this arguement?


What are you talking about? Read over your statement again and at what fruitcake has been trying to say. Then get back to me again


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> I respectfuly disagree. I've watched like 4-5 Nets games this season, and although Vinnce does good going one-on-one, *he also gets feed a lot in transition offense *and getting free for jumpers.


well the Nets were two different teams last season. Their first big winning streak, in November/December they were a fast-break team.

Their second big winning streak, they were a half-court defensive team. And thats how they played most similary to the second half of the season and the playoffs.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> I respectfuly disagree. I've watched like 4-5 Nets games this season, and although Vinnce does good going one-on-one, he also gets feed a lot in transition offense and getting free for jumpers.


Take a quick visit to the Nets forum. Ask them why they have such a huge problem with the current Nets offense. I am pretty sure 90% of the responses will tell you it is to iso oriented. Rarely does the ball get moved around. Occasionally they have one or two fast breaks and they will tell you that RJ is the one that benefits mostly from those fast breaks.


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## Samurai of Swoosh (Sep 18, 2006)

1) Kobe Bryant
2) Tracy McGrady
3) Vince Carter
4) Ray Allen
5) Michael Redd


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> What are you talking about? Read over your statement again and at what fruitcake has been trying to say. Then get back to me again


lol.....I guess you forgot what you said earlier in this thread

do you not remember your agruement that Vince didnt have the chance to put the numbers Wade does because of the players on his team who need the ball

and now you are saying Wade has the teammates who take the pressure off him......

cant have it both ways....... seems like your forgot about what you said before because hey, this arguement sounds pretty good now....lol.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

HB said:


> Take a quick visit to the Nets forum. Ask them why they have such a huge problem with the current Nets offense. I am pretty sure 90% of the responses will tell you it is to iso oriented. Rarely does the ball get moved around. Occasionally they have one or two fast breaks and they will tell you that RJ is the one that benefits mostly from those fast breaks.


Just because i didn't want to sound misinformed (seing 4/5 Nets games in 82), i took a look at www.82games.com.

Vince Carter is assisted in: 55% of jump shots; 38% of close shots; 60% of dunks; 43% of inside shots. It doesn't seem like he's just scoring from isolation plays... another thing: Carter launched 367 3 pointers last season. How many 3 pointers come out of an isolation play?

Just saying...


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> lol.....I guess you forgot what you said earlier in this thread
> 
> do you not remember your agruement that Vince didnt have the chance to put the numbers Wade does because of the players on his team who need the ball
> 
> ...


Actually you made my arguement for me. Wade plays on a team with much better offensive options. How many assists alone does he get from the big man in the middle. Outside of Kidd, RJ and Nenad can you name any other players on the Nets.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Just because i didn't want to sound misinformed (seing 4/5 Nets games in 82), i took a look at www.82games.com.
> 
> Vince Carter is assisted in: 55% of jump shots; 38% of close shots; 60% of dunks; 43% of inside shots. It doesn't seem like he's just scoring from isolation plays... another thing: Carter launched 367 3 pointers last season. How many 3 pointers come out of an isolation play?
> 
> Just saying...


Thats interesting. Honestly dont know what to say but to watch a couple of Nets games. There is a whole lot of iso plays, there is a reason why analysts have mentioned how terrible the Nets offense is.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> lyour videos mean shi* to me


I don't quite get this.

Its not like my videos are random, and I seletively pick out of a huge selection.

Did you even watch them? All of them prove a point.

Most of them go like this. Shaq is under the basket, Wade drives toward the basket. The defender stays on Shaq. I mean, i would you think you know that Shaq, even at this point of his career can't be left wide open near the basket? There are also instances were a good 3 point shooter like Posey or Williams can't be left to help on Wade, because they would make the three. 

If you look at it from Vince's point of view. You know that nobody is going to cover Collins. I can score better than him and I'm terrible. Krstic was stone cold in the playoffs. How many times did you see his man leaving him and Vince passing to him cause he was open? Too bad Krstic bricked 90% of those shots in that series. Kidd is not a great shooter, he can be left at times, Jefferson is not all that great either.

I believe my points are valid, and my videos don't mean jack****. It proves that most of Wade's teamates can't be left open and Vince can. The videos serve to show this point, not to show that Vince is doubled and Wade isn't. Of course Wade is doubled. Every star in the league is doubled in this league. But nobody helps on Wade if Shaq's under the basket.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Just because i didn't want to sound misinformed (seing 4/5 Nets games in 82), i took a look at www.82games.com.
> 
> Vince Carter is assisted in: 55% of jump shots; 38% of close shots; 60% of dunks; 43% of inside shots. It doesn't seem like he's just scoring from isolation plays... another thing: Carter launched 367 3 pointers last season. *How many 3 pointers come out of an isolation play?*
> 
> Just saying...


lmao a lot. Vince loves jacking up those 25 foot step back jumpers.


----------



## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> Actually you made my arguement for me. Wade plays on a team with much better offensive options. How many assists alone does he get from the big man in the middle. Outside of Kidd, RJ and Nenad can you name any other players on the Nets.


he does....and that satisfies one of your arguement, and goes against the one you said earlier in your thread.....See, in the same thread saying Vince doesnt put up as good of numbers because of him having to share the ball with other people, and in the same one saing wade has better offensive options to make it easier.....one of those comments is not true, and presenting both as true is one big double standard

so cool, anything I say about teammates will sastify one of your 2 *dissenting* opinions. You are so smart- i agree with something you said :laugh: 

and about the naming Net players thing, you know how much I followed the Nets last year....how I said things before the season (an unpopular truth) that was the truth, and followed them throughout the season.........starters, Kidd, RJ, Carter, Collins, Kristic- bench Vaugh, Cliff, Wright, Nachbar. New players are rookies Boone and Williams, both out of UCONN. I know my basketball.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

HB said:


> Thats interesting. Honestly dont know what to say but to watch a couple of Nets games. There is a whole lot of iso plays, there is a reason why analysts have mentioned how terrible the Nets offense is.


If i saw more Nets games, would it erase/change the percentages posted upon 82games.com? Come on, now... 

And don't mistake me for a hater, too. I've loved the Nets ever since the Kenny-Petro-Morris-Colema-Bowie days. And regardless of Carter's last couple of Toronto ball, always felt he is a fantastic player. But i just don't feel you are right on your assertions.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

fruitcake said:


> I don't quite get this.
> 
> Its not like my videos are random, and I seletively pick out of a huge selection.
> 
> ...



A word to the wise, I'd say give up on arguing with WSE. He has shown the ability to ignore certain points and just rant about whatever he feels is right


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

fruitcake said:


> lmao a lot. Vince loves jacking up those 25 foot step back jumpers.


The question is: does he bring the ball himself from backcourt and hoist a 3pointer? Does he get the ball in the 3 point line, dribbles for 10 seconds, then shoots a 3? 

Don't go that way...


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> *If i saw more Nets games, would it erase/change the percentages posted upon 82games.com? Come on, now... *
> And don't mistake me for a hater, too. I've loved the Nets ever since the Kenny-Petro-Morris-Colema-Bowie days. And regardless of Carter's last couple of Toronto ball, always felt he is a fantastic player. But i just don't feel you are right on your assertions.



Yes it would. Look at it on paper or see it first hand. The Nets offense was down right dispicable at times and no matter how many stats sheets you post up, they will hardly touch the surface on how many times we struggled to get points on the board.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> If i saw more Nets games, would it erase/change the percentages posted upon 82games.com? Come on, now...
> 
> And don't mistake me for a hater, too. I've loved the Nets ever since the Kenny-Petro-Morris-Colema-Bowie days. And regardless of Carter's last couple of Toronto ball, always felt he is a fantastic player. But i just don't feel you are right on your assertions.


Last year 82games.com had stats that showed that Wade was a pretty bad jumpshooter. If you watch the games you would note that its not the case, he is a very good midrange shooter. Just saying sometimes the best judge is your own self


----------



## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> A word to the wise, I'd say give up on arguing with WSE. He has shown the ability to ignore certain points and just rant about whatever he feels is right


I guess we think the same as eachother

you seem to be ignoring what was said by *yourself* earlier in this thread because it doesnt sastify what you are saying currently. :rofl:

and this was said directly towards you and trying to say one is a better scorer because of arsenal- I would like a response. 



> as for "arsenal", as people know this comment I hate most of all. Put it this way, why should how a person score mean more then the fact that they do score? Why should a player who does everything well be called a better "scorer" then one that does a few things great, when that great leads to more scoring on a higher percentage.....it doesnt make sense....whoever scores the best at the best efficiency is the better scorer, not the one who does little things better........wow, Vince could shoot the 3 well, could slash well, could get to the line. Doesnt make up for the things Wade does great, which in his case is slashing. If the slashing gets him more points at a better efficiency, he is a better scorer. Ways to score mean nothing, only the end result does. Pretty direct, right?
> 
> perfect example of my above comment- Raef Lafrenz (or insert many other random centers) scores in more ways then shaq (inside, outside, midrange, good at ft's), but shaq does the bulldozing thing great. Who would say Raef is a better scorer then Shaq? You see, it doesnt matter who one scores (when comparing scoring) as long as they get it done at a good percentage.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> The question is: does he bring the ball himself from backcourt and hoist a 3pointer? Does he get the ball in the 3 point line, dribbles for 10 seconds, then shoots a 3?
> 
> Don't go that way...


uhh. frank calls for a vince iso. vince dribbles at the top of the key, then sometimes theres a screen, and he steps back for a three.

happens at least once a game i would say. and considering he averaged around 4 three point attempts last season, thats a considerable percentage.


----------



## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> I guess we think the same as eachother


can you please tell me why my videos are ****?


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> I guess we think the same as eachother
> 
> you seem to be ignoring what was said by *yourself* earlier in this thread because it doesnt sastify what you are saying currently. :rofl:
> 
> and this was said directly towards you and trying to say one is a better scorer because of arsenal- I would like a response.


Or you think it doesnt


----------



## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

fruitcake said:


> can you please tell me why my videos are ****?


I thought I did already



> anybody could find specific videos to match what they say......*I could find 10 videos of Wade being doubled just like you could of Vince being doubled....isolated plays dont mean much.......I watch the Heat, I know Wade gets doubled constantly (as Vince does also- not denying that, lo*l). A couple plays where the defense was lax doesnt mean all that much......*So in conclusion, your videos mean *dont mask* to me, other then a couple isolated plays picked because of your arguement. I could do the same for my arguement if I wanted to. *


anybody could find specific plays to represent a specific arguement...I could find plays where Kidd has helped Carter, just like Shaq has helped Wade. I could find plays with Wade doubled/tripled and Carter isolated 1 on 1 with a defender on one side of the court. You could find vidoes for anything- Videos dont show anything conclusive other then the 10 seconds that they show.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Jizzy said:


> Yes it would. Look at it on paper or see it first hand. The Nets offense was down right dispicable at times and no matter how many stats sheets you post up, they will hardly touch the surface on how many times we struggled to get points on the board.


First off: are you saying statistics lie, or that 82games.com isn't to be trusted?

Second: I'm well aware that the Net's offense is much more confortable on the fast break and the transition offense. Cause it's the game where Kidd, RJ and Carter feel more confortable. therefore, you bring no news to me as to the difficulty of putting points on the board playing half-court offense.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> I thought I did already
> 
> 
> 
> anybody could find specific plays to represent I specific arguement...I could find plays where Kidd has helped Carter, just like Shaq has helped Wade. I could find plays with Wade doubled/tripled and Carter isolated 1 on 1 with a defender on one side of the court. You could find vidoes for anything- Videos dont show anything conclusive other then the 10 seconds that they show.


you obviously did not read my post. cause it was in responce to your other post. or watch the videos for that matter. its not at all about the 'defense being lax'. its about a defender not helping on wade cause he'll leave an offensive thread wide open.



> I don't quite get this.
> 
> Its not like my videos are random, and I seletively pick out of a huge selection.
> 
> ...


----------



## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

fruitcake said:


> you obviously did not read my post. cause it was in responce to your other post.


I read it...doesnt change the response I gave before

you asked me why vidoes dont mean anything to me, and I answered that directly already.....my arguement doesnt change because of a response. To me, vidoes dont mean anything conclusive other then the 10 seconds that they show....trying to defend your videos isnt going to make me think differently. I dont change my opinions because it is fashionable (like others in this thead)


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Second: I'm well aware that the Net's offense is much more confortable on the fast break and the transition offense. Cause it's the game where Kidd, RJ and Carter feel more confortable. therefore, you bring no news to me as to the difficulty of putting points on the board playing half-court offense.


huh?

The Nets can hardly run. Vince hardly runs. They are clearly a half-court offense.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> I read it...doesnt change the response I gave before
> 
> you asked me why vidoes dont mean anything to me, and I answered that directly already.....my arguement doesnt change because of a response. To me, vidoes dont mean anything conclusive other then the 10 seconds that they show....trying to defend your videos isnt going to make me think differently. I dont change my opinions because it is fashionable (like others in this thead)


To go in fruitcake's defense, he said 9 of the 10 videos he recieved in youtube.com after typing Wade Drive were one-on-one slashes (the other was a fast brak dunk), where there was no help defense.

I know youtube is not a credible source, per se, and not with that small of a sample, but still he made a valid point.


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

fruitcake said:


> huh?
> 
> The Nets can hardly run. Vince hardly runs. They are clearly a half-court offense.


"clearly a half-court offense" with 2 of your 3 best player being named Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson? That's news to me. You can say that the Nets are FORCED to play half-court. but don't say they ARE a half-cort offense team.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> "clearly a half-court offense" with 2 of your 3 best player being named Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson? That's news to me. You can say that the Nets are FORCED to play half-court. but don't say they ARE a half-cort offense team.


ya...Kidd runs...with RJ....and nobody else.

theres no kittles and k-mart anymore.......

trust me the team is a half-court team. i doubt they are top 10 in fast break points. (can you find out?)


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> "clearly a half-court offense" with 2 of your 3 best player being named Jason Kidd and Richard Jefferson? That's news to me. You can say that the Nets are FORCED to play half-court. but don't say they ARE a half-cort offense team.


Thats no lie. The Nets have been a halfcourt team ever since Vince's arrival.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> To go in fruitcake's defense, he said 9 of the 10 videos he recieved in youtube.com after typing Wade Drive were one-on-one slashes (the other was a fast brak dunk), where there was no help defense.
> 
> I know youtube is not a credible source, per se, and not with that small of a sample, but still he made a valid point.


yea...he found videos where Shaq's presence has helped Wade. Do you think I couldnt find videos of Kidd helping Carter, of Carter going one on one in isolation without doubles?

see, I admit Shaq being there helps wade at times. It should be admitted the same with Carter and Kidd.....so we are back to nothing definitive again. 

and wade scores by himself without help, as Carter does. So me pulling up those videos and trying to say that is the case all the time wouldnt work. 

I would love to find Wade's +/- on the games Shaq didnt play.....and the fact that Wade had the best roland rating alltogether in the league last year- Since shaq doesnt play all that much, he must be doing something right without Shaq on the court.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

fruitcake said:


> ya...Kidd runs...with RJ....and nobody else.
> 
> theres no kittles and k-mart anymore.......
> 
> trust me the team is a half-court team. i doubt they are top 10 in fast break points. (can you find out?)


I'm not going against you and HB with the type of play the Nets' have being adopting. Like i've said, i watched only 4/5 games last year.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> yea...he found videos where Shaq's presence has helped Wade. Do you think I couldnt find videos of Kidd helping Carter, of Carter going one on one in isolation without doubles?
> 
> *see, I admit Shaq being there helps wade at times. It should be admitted the same with Carter and Kidd.....so we are back to nothing definitive again.*


I was defending that kind of reasoning (strangely, because you are a biggot  ), but it just wasn't accepted.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> yea...he found videos where Shaq's presence has helped Wade. Do you think I couldnt find videos of Kidd helping Carter, of Carter going one on one in isolation without doubles?
> 
> see, I admit Shaq being there helps wade at times. It should be admitted the same with Carter and *Kidd.....so we are back to nothing definitive again. *


uhh how does Kidd help Carter in that way? players leave Kidd all time. Kidd is barely a .400 shooter.

and when does Kidd stand under the basket?

An inside presence has a much bigger impact than a 3 point shooter. Even if Kidd was a prolific shooter, Shaq's effect would still be greater. You can never leave a great finisher under the basket, he'll make it 100% of the time. A wide open 3 point shooter does not make it 100% of the time no matter how good you are.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

fruitcake said:


> uhh how does Kidd help Carter in that way? players leave Kidd all time. Kidd is barely a .400 shooter.
> 
> and when does Kidd stand under the basket?
> 
> An inside presence has a much bigger impact than a 3 point shooter. Even if Kidd was a prolific shooter, Shaq's effect would still be greater. You can never leave a great finisher under the basket, he'll make it 100% of the time. A wide open 3 point shooter does not make it 100% of the time no matter how good you are.


Kidd helps Carter score at times......Shaq helps Wade score at times

there is a difference in how they do it, but again its the same result. Nothing definitive like I said.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> Kidd helps Carter score at times......Shaq helps Wade score at times
> 
> there is a difference in how they do it, but again its the same result. Nothing definitive like I said.


arite man clearly i cannot convince you in anything. :biggrin:


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> Or you think it doesnt


how does saying a player has more players to share the ball with and therefore getting less numbers go with an arguement that the other player has it easier due to better teammates. You have said both at different times in this thread

please enlighten me on this apparent double standard. There must be something under the surface that my small brain cant pick up on.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

Jizzy said:


> We all should know that by now. WSE lives by hype and statistics.


that doesnt make any sense....Stats are definitive, hype is not. 

If I had to pick one of those that I use the most, its stats. Good thing, because thats the one that definitive......I wasnt saying Wade was one of the best players in the league when he was not putting up the numbers to prove it. (if that was the case, it would be hype).

I would actually say Vince fans are the ones using hype here.....they are trying to use perceived skills to put Carter with the top players when he clearly isnt producing like one anymore on a game by game basis. Thats hyping up of skills and not results. Do you not think that is worse than basing an arguement on results?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> how does saying a player has more players to share the ball with and therefore getting less numbers go with an arguement that the other player has it easier due to better teammates. You have said both at different times in this thread
> 
> please enlighten me on this apparent double standard. There must be something under the surface that my small brain cant pick up on.


Dude if you dont see it never mind. Watch a Nets game and get back to me. Do you think Vince controls the ball as much as Wade does? Jason Kidd is still the point guard on that team. How many points, rebounds and assists were shared between RJ, Vince and Kidd.

And how exactly is it double standards that the Heat have a more complete team. Outside of Vince, Rj, Kidd and Nenad, name me another player capable of putting up 10+ plus points on that team


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> Dude if you dont see it never mind. Watch a Nets game and get back to me. Do you think Vince controls the ball as much as Wade does? Jason Kidd is still the point guard on that team. How many points, rebounds and assists were shared between RJ, Vince and Kidd.
> 
> And how exactly is it double standards that the Heat have a more complete team. Outside of Vince, Rj, Kidd and Nenad, name me another player capable of putting up 10+ plus points on that team



you cant use 

"Vince has all these other players that need the ball, so therefore he has less statistics"

and

"Wade has it easiler because he has better teammates"

in the same arguement

you see, wouldnt Wade having better teammates mean he has to share the ball more? Meaning he is the one who is held back statistically because of the teammates? Saying Carter has to share the ball with great players and Wade doesnt is not the right arguement because Wade has Shaq, Walker, Jwill (a pg), Haslem, Posey, and Payton (another pg) on his team. How many rebounds, points, assists were shared between these players?

I agree with the second arguement on your part, but not the first. The first is actually opposite of the second. Its impossible to agree with both.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> you cant use
> 
> "Vince has all these other players that need the ball, so therefore he has less statistics"
> 
> ...


um no.

Wade may take less shots if thats what you're getting it, but has significantly better teamates than Vince, and that makes him much much more efficient scorer.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

fruitcake said:


> um no.
> 
> Wade may take less shots if thats what you're getting it, but has significantly better teamates than Vince, and that makes him much much more efficient scorer.


so how is Carter held back statistically by his teammates needing the ball if Wade isnt by his teammates needing the ball, when Wade has the better teammates?

you see, you only used half of the arguement also....there is a second part that was being argued at the beginning of this thread. Both cant be used here.

and no, Wade's shot selection makes him a more efficient scorer. He gets good shots with/without Shaq on the court.....If Wade shot 3 pointers all day, he wouldnt be a more efficient scorer


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> so how is Carter held back statistically by his teammates needing the ball if Wade isnt by his teammates needing the ball, when Wade has the better teammates?
> 
> you see, you only used half of the arguement also....there is a second part that was being argued at the beginning of this thread. Both cant be used here.
> 
> and no, Wade's shot selection makes him a more efficient scorer. He gets good shots with/without Shaq on the court.....If Wade shot 3 pointers all day, he wouldnt be a more efficient scorer


Did you happen to read the part where fruitcake said Vince is 30 and Wade is 24. You cannot expect Vince to relentlessly keep attacking the basket like Wade does.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> Did you happen to read the part where fruitcake said Vince is 30 and Wade is 24. You cannot expect Vince to relentlessly keep attacking the basket like Wade does.


um, because we arent talking about Carter 6 years ago

wouldnt Carter not being able to do that add to the fact that Wade is currently (and has been the past 2 seasons) the better player?

and I would still like my arguement about "arsenal" answered


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> so *how is Carter held back statistically by his teammates needing the ball *if Wade isnt by his teammates needing the ball, when Wade has the better teammates?
> 
> you see, you only used half of the arguement also....there is a second part that was being argued at the beginning of this thread. Both cant be used here.


I didn't make this statement so I'm not sure exaclty what HB was getting at and in what context that statement was made.

This is my opinion:

Carter is held back statistically by his teamates because most of them are not very good, and they defer to him too much and Carter has to shoulder the scoring burden for the team. The opposing team's defense concentrates on him as well, making him a less efficient player.

Wade has it a little easier because even tho his temates defer to him as well, they are much more capable then Vince's teamates, and Wade can rely on his teamates to hit an open shot. So even tho Wade may take less shots than Carter (i am not sure about this cause Wade gets to the line a hell of a lot), Wade is a much much more efficinet player because of his teamates. Wade also gets less attention than Vince because of Shaq and the things I mentioned before.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> wouldnt Carter not being able to do that add to the fact that Wade is currently (and has been the past 2 seasons) the better player?


I did agree with Wade being better now, but if you recall our arguments last year, I clearly did not think so last year.

It was because of Wade's playoff performance that made me admit he is better than Carter, tho there are certain plays that I can't get out of my head.....but that's an entirely different story.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

fruitcake said:


> I didn't make this statement so I'm not sure exaclty what HB was getting at and in what context that statement was made.
> 
> This is my opinion:
> 
> ...


I agree with your main point, and not with him...why is that?

because you are not making the point he was....He was saying that the teammates needing the ball because of the calibur of player they are didnt let Carter get the statistics Wade does.....saying that the Nets shared the ball more, having players that needed the ball, and thats what held Carter's statistics back. 

so it looks like you agree with his second point, and disagree with the first as well. We are on the same page here.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

i am going to bookmark this thread.

when the next vince vs wade thread pops up again, i am just going to say please read this thread and stop wasting our time re-arguing the same points.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

People used to use the "Shaq effect" argument with Kobe, and Kobe went out and had his best individual season without Shaquille. It's a silly argument. Wade has blown up without Shaquille on the court for stretches of games or stretches of seasons where the big man is hurt. Shaquille actually hurts Wade as much as he helps him, because the offense is run through someone different, and Shaquille collapses the defense in the paint, which is where Wade makes his killing. Wade also wants to run everytime, but the Miami offense wants to slow down for Shaquille. It's a give and take. Wade definitely isn't feeding off anyone. He will try to use Shaq to his advantage, but he is also sacraficing parts of his game for the better of the duo. 

If you want to talk about winning, obviously Wade alone or Kobe alone aren't going to do as well as they would alongside Shaquille, just like Shaquille alone isn't going to do near as well without being alongside Kobe or Wade. That's irrelevant to their individual greatness, though, which would shine in any situation.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Question: Is Wade a better player than Allen Iverson?


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

HB said:


> Question is Wade a better player than Allen Iverson?


interesting.

How about this comparison?

a 24 year old Wade vs a 24 year old Carter vs a 25 year old Iverson?

of course the 25 year old Iverson and the 24 year old Carter had that epic duel in the playoffs.

If I were to compare those three when they were all in similar stages of their careers (i know somebody is going to say this is completely off topic and useless)

I would put Iverson 1st (he did win MVP after all), followed by Carter, then followed by Wade. Even though only Wade has a ring.

Thats because even tho Iverson had slightly better teamates than Carter at the time (he had a prime Mutombo), his teamates were still a hell of a lot worse than Wade's.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

What do we have here, a bunch of posters downplaying Shaq's impact on Wade, yet they are the same posters who argue Shaq still the best center in the league (I agree by the way) and it's dumb to ignore his impact or presence when he steps on the court? Oh, the irony. Hear it from Wade himself "we would not have won this ring without Big Daddy" - Trasnlation: "I would not have gotten to the lane so easily without any real pressure if it wasn't for Shaq eliminating all the big obstacles out of my way".

I see some folks talking about how Carter doesn't drive much and get to the paint, because he's old whatever, whatever. Are you kidding me? I say, it was due to the lack of foul calls he received last season, yet he still managed to average 7.3 FTA, and that's 3 less than the mighty whinny refeWade. Everyone knows Carter has to fight and sweat hard to get to the freethrow line no matter how hard he gets hits when driving, because of his reputation with the raptors --- but Wade can get there easily, because it's handed to him on a plate. "You breathe on him and it's foul".

Fruitcake, was bright to show those videos which SWS is tryina downplay its importance as usual, but he let the Wade hype get to him by suggesting that "Yes, Wade is better", I'm sorry. Anyways, those clips showed proofs for the lack of defense attention Wade receives or rather the impact of Shaq on him and the Miami Heat in general. SWS, can ignore Carter's playoffs performance all he wants and better yet, stick with his sig. How ironic though, that instead of comparing Carter and Wades' overall playoffs stats, he choses to only count the 5 games they matched up against eachother during the playoffs. Never mind you, he was one of the posters whom downplayed Carter domination of Wade in the regular season. 

Carter averaged 9 FTA in the playoffs, again this for the posters who claimed Carter can no longer drive much because of knees injuries and all that nonesense. If you don't know how good your favorite player is then let the loyal fans speak up instead. Furthermore, those attempts could have been more if he got "The Wade's" treatement from the ref. A guy who can't shoot like Wade and is limited offensively is not better than Carter. Defense? Both are equal and I'm waiting for someone to claim DWade is superior in this department. That would be a good laugh. NBA general fans can think all they want and ride the hype, but Fly say that little fella is seriously overrated. Great player yes, no denying that. However, to speak of him like he's on another level than Carter is pure ignorant. I have no hard time accepting the fact that Kobe and Bron are better than Vince, but Wade? Not in a million years.

You guys have a nice day.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> What do we have here, a bunch of posters downplaying Shaq's impact on Wade, yet they are the same posters who argue Shaq still the best center in the league


It's the same thing you do. Shaquille is to Wade as Kidd is to Carter. You downplay Kidd's impact on Carter the same way they downplay Shaquille's impact on Wade, then go off and claim Kidd is the best point guard in the NBA and makes all his teammates better. 



Air Fly said:


> Hear it from Wade himself "we would not have won this ring without Big Daddy" - Trasnlation: "I would not have gotten to the lane so easily without any real pressure if it wasn't for Shaq eliminating all the big obstacles out of my way".


Of course they wouldn't have won without Shaquille, what's your point? Not many teams can maintain their champion status without their 2nd best player. The dynasty Bulls would have zero titles if not for Scottie Pippen. Should we start downplaying Michael Jordan because he would not have won any titles without Scottie Pippen?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> *It's the same thing you do. Shaquille is to Wade as Kidd is to Carter. You downplay Kidd's impact on Carter the same way they downplay Shaquille's impact on Wade, then go off and claim Kidd is the best point guard in the NBA and makes all his teammates better. *
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they wouldn't have won without Shaquille, what's your point? Not many teams can maintain their champion status without their 2nd best player. The dynasty Bulls would have zero titles if not for Scottie Pippen. Should we start downplaying Michael Jordan because he would not have won any titles without Scottie Pippen?


Comparing apples to oranges. Does Kidd's presence on the floor make it easier for Vince to score? Does Kidd"s presence on the court give teams the opportunity to focus less on Vince? Mind explaining what impact exactly you meant


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Air Fly said:


> Oh, the irony. Hear it from Wade himself "we would not have won this ring without Big Daddy" - Trasnlation: "I would not have gotten to the lane so easily without any real pressure if it wasn't for Shaq eliminating all the big obstacles out of my way".


i thought it wouldnt matter if shaq eliminated obstacles because when wade reaches obstacles, the ref just bail him out, right?


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

who is SWS 

anyway, Shaq helps Wade at times on the court, Kidd helps Carter on the court at times

and Carter shoots way more long range shots by Wade........not even close to as agressive getting into the lane and getting fouled. 

and keeping my sig- its a series of stats over a 82 game season- the biggest range you could get in a nba season....Trying to compare players based on 4 games is laughable, and something Vince fans love to do.....you could try to compare series of Vince against Peja/Jackson and Wade against Hinrich/Nocioni, but that wouldnt make much sense......One is a great defensive team (Bulls), and one is an average one (Pacers w/o Artest).....the 82 game season is much more thorough in that it shows games vs. the same teams pretty much...


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> Comparing apples to oranges. Does Kidd's presence on the floor make it easier for Vince to score? Does Kidd"s presence on the court give teams the opportunity to focus less on Vince? Mind explaining what impact exactly you meant


yes, Kidd makes it easier for Vince to score.....he gets Vince the ball where Vince has a good chance to score

and thats equivilent to Shaq's prescence helping Wade....they do it different ways, so no, Kidds shooting doesnt allow the defense to focus less on Vince

so I could ask this qustion

Does Wade have the best pg in the league to allow for easy scores? Thats what Kidd does best, and thats what Carter has. 

Shaq has the biggest inside presence..

both situations help at times, and both players will do fine without the help....I think both Kidd and Shaq have huge impacts on the game, one of which is making their teammates jobs easier...Wade has a top center, Carter a top floor general. Do it different ways, but results are what matter.

do you really want me to go back and find numerous situations where you label kidd one of the best pg's in the league becauseof how much he helps his teammates? That would be so easy to find


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> *yes, Kidd makes it easier for Vince to score.....he gets Vince the ball where Vince has a good chance to score*
> and thats equivilent to Shaq's prescence helping Wade....they do it different ways, so no, Kidds shooting doesnt allow the defense to focus less on Vince
> 
> so I could ask this qustion
> ...


Really, [email protected] that one. The Nets run the most predictable halfcourt offense game in the whole league, even Byron Scott and Doc Rivers said something like that. Charles Barkley said the same thing. Kidd brings the ball down the court when Vince is isn, Vince tries to shake of his defender, runs to one spot then Kidd dumps the ball to him. THAT is the point when Vince now has to work for his points, he either shoots over the defender, tries to beat him of the drouble or does some of his fancy plays. The problem is he rarely ever faces one defender, once he makes a move two or three players converge on him. Now tell me how exactly has Kidd made it easier for Vince to score. If he really did, shouldnt that show up in his FG%.

How exactly would Wade and Kidd coexist on the same team, when Wade holds on to the ball a fair amount of time. Whats the point of having a pg like Kidd, if Wade is going to be doing most of the point duties. Get your facts straight WSE


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Well, to be fair, if Doc Rivers said it, the opposite is automatically true.


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## BBB (Jan 19, 2005)

fellas, kobe's the best.


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## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

Nobody's debating that (I don't think).


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

you see Kidd's effect on Vince on the fast break higlights. But Vince doesn't run very much. Maybe only 2 or 3 plays where Kidd is actaully creating for Vince in a game.

Its different with RJ who is sprinting down the court, every time Kidd gets the ball.

If Vince could learn how to run, then he would be a much better player. But he can't, so the Nets are a half-court team.

Please. Shaq helps Wade in so many more ways than Kidd helping Vince. The biggest thing Kidd helps Vince with is off the court. He is pushing Vince, he (or RJ) told him to step it up and take more control of the ball sometime in November/December last year which led to our first big winning streak. Kidd's intangibles are what have helped Vince the most, and has has brought glimpses back of Vince Carter in 2000-2001.

Shaq's presence clearly affects the game more than Kidd. THe whole game slows down because of Shaq. In Kidd's case, when you're only one of two people running on the floor, the game's tempo is not increased very much. 

Substitute Kidd for Nash, and Kidd would have the same results if not better in Phoenix.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

P-Dub34 said:


> Well, to be fair, if Doc Rivers said it, the opposite is automatically true.


Doc Rivers said Paul Pierce was one heck of a leader


----------



## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)




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## NetsFan (Aug 9, 2005)

> you see Kidd's effect on Vince on the fast break higlights. But Vince doesn't run very much. Maybe only 2 or 3 plays where Kidd is actaully creating for Vince in a game.
> 
> Its different with RJ who is sprinting down the court, every time Kidd gets the ball.
> 
> ...


:yes:

Kidd helps vince off the court and some on the court 
while Shaq helps wade alotttttttttttt on the court


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

NetsFan said:


> :yes:
> 
> Kidd helps vince off the court and some on the court
> while Shaq helps wade alotttttttttttt on the court


Does this make Wade any less of a player?


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It's the same thing you do. Shaquille is to Wade as Kidd is to Carter. You downplay Kidd's impact on Carter the same way they downplay Shaquille's impact on Wade, then go off and claim Kidd is the best point guard in the NBA and makes all his teammates better.


Please watch some Nets games before you make this statement.

I am not trying to downplay Kidd's impact on Carter because clearly Kidd doesn't impact Vince too much in a half-court offense. A huge reason why Kidd, I believe is the best poitn guard in the NBA is his intangibles. And he does make his teamates better, both on and especailly off the court in Vince's case. I am also not saying Kidd has no effect on Carter on the court because he clearly does. However, because Carter doesn't run, if you watch a Nets game, you'll notice that Carter creates more open shots for Kidd then Kidd creates for Carter. Kidd gets a lot of open threes as a result of Vince's penetration. But when there's a fast break, and Kidd's got the ball, and Carter's the trailer. Watch out. Kidd also makes some nifty passes to Vince who's cutting to the basket once or twice a game, but its not like Kidd makes everything easier for Vince. Most of Vince shot's are created by Vince. I have always critisized Frank, he is not a very creative coach. Way too many Vince and RJ isos. As HB said, the Nets have one of the most predictable offenses in the league.

Shaq, even in this point of his career, changes the whole dynamic of the game. And he especially gives Wade an open lane to drive to the hoop.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

fruitcake said:


> Shaq, even in this point of his career, changes the whole dynamic of the game. And he especially gives Wade an open lane to drive to the hoop.


Does this make Wade any less of a player?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

ralaw said:


> Does this make Wade any less of a player?


I dont think that was the point of the last two statements you asked that question


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

ralaw said:


> Does this make Wade any less of a player?


no, and thats not whats being debated here.

I respect Dwyane Wade, and I have said that I believe him to be better than Vince Carter because of his performance in the playoffs.

However, what I've been trying to say is that there is no way Wade is a much much better player than Carter, Carter is clearly as I've said before *in Wade's league.* 

Various statistics were brought up to prove that Wade is far superior player than Vince, and they rank Vince a lot lower than Wade in terms of the best SGs in the league. What i've been trying to say all along with all those videos and explanations is that its not all in the numbers. Vince has to work a lot harder than Wade to get his numbers. Wade is still better than Vince, he really did step his game up in the finals, but Vince is not far behind.

The other point that I've been trying to remind people is that Vince is 30 years old. Among the premier swingmen in the league (who rely a lot on their athletisim, so no Ray Allen), Pierce, Kobe, Wade, T-Mac, Vince, etc. Vince is the oldest. I've also been saying that when Vince was in his prime at 24 years old, he was a better player than Dwyane Wade. Though nobody has bothered to debate with me on that point.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

ralaw said:


> Does this make Wade any less of a player?


.... Please read the whole thread.

I am starting to sound like a broken record.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

HB said:


> I dont think that was the point of the last two statements you asked that question


It is the point. People are trying to say that Wade has it easier due to Shaq and insinuating this is the reason he produces at a higher and more efficient rate that VC. In saying that, you are essentially saying he is dependent on Shaq and this is as far from the truth as it could be. Arguing Shaq's relevance is irrelevant because Wade would be a great player with or without him.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

ralaw said:


> It is the point. People are trying to say that Wade has it easier due to Shaq and insinuating this is the reason he produces at a higher and more efficient rate that VC. In saying that, you are essentially saying he is dependent on Shaq and this is as far from the truth as it could be. Arguing Shaq's relevance is irrelevant because Wade would be a great player with or without him.


He is a fantastic player in his own right, but you mentioned earlier in this thread that Wade without Shaq could achieve the same type of success that Kobe had in leading his team to the playoffs. I already disagreed with that. If Allen Iverson couldnt do it, I really dont see how he can. And yes Shaq is the necessary ingredient that seperates him from all the other elite guards in the league


----------



## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

ralaw said:


> It is the point. People are trying to say that Wade has it easier due to Shaq and insinuating this is the reason he produces at a higher and more efficient rate that VC. In saying that, you are essentially saying he is dependent on Shaq and this is as far from the truth as it could be. Arguing Shaq's relevance is irrelevant because Wade would be a great player with or without him.


The stuff in red is true. The stuff in blue is not.

All we are arguing is that Wade doesn't have to work as hard to score his points. Which could mean he is able to drive more, because he doesnt have to go through as many defenders, therefore get to the line more. It doesn't take away from him being a great player at all. 

Please read my other post as well.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

fruitcake said:


> no, and thats not whats being debated here.
> 
> I respect Dwyane Wade, and I have said that I believe him to be better than Vince Carter because of his performance in the playoffs.
> 
> ...


Some Nets fans are good for giving excuses for VC and I respect that, but it seems rather obvious Shaq has influence on Wades game, so I don't understand the deep break down of something so obvious. However, that influence isn't relevant enough to warrant mentioning it as a case against Wade.


----------



## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

ralaw said:


> Some Nets fans are good for giving excuses for VC and I respect that, but it seems rather obvious Shaq has influence on Wades game, so I don't understand the deep break down of something so obvious. However, *that influence isn't relevant enough to warrant mentioning it as a case against Wade.*


Did you watch the videos I posted in this thread?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

19 pages wow, me thinks this thread has gone on too long


----------



## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

HB said:


> 19 pages wow, me thinks this thread has gone on too long


well the only heat/wade fans to get it or at least acknowledge what i've been saying so far are PauloCatrino and Dre.

pretty much everybody else has denied every single valid point that i've made.


----------



## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

HB said:


> He is a fantastic player in his own right, but you mentioned earlier in this thread that Wade without Shaq could achieve the same type of success that Kobe had in leading his team to the playoffs. I already disagreed with that. If Allen Iverson couldnt do it, I really dont see how he can. And yes Shaq is the necessary ingredient that seperates him from all the other elite guards in the league


I don't get the Iverson comparison, but to each's own. Wade's ability is closer to Kobe than to AI. As with Kobe, if you surround Wade with a decent team with a great coach, he could lead a team to the playoffs. What I find funny is this time last year (pre championship) everyone was saying Shaq was done and if the Heat were going to make the playoffs and win a championship it would be on the shoulders of Wade. Well, Wade came through and now people are back to anointing Shaq the most dominant player in the league again. It's funny how things work.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

ralaw said:


> I don't get the Iverson comparison, but to each's own. Wade's ability is closer to Kobe than to AI. As with Kobe, if you surround Wade with a decent team with a great coach, he could lead a team to the playoffs. What I find funny is this time last year (pre championship) everyone was saying Shaq was done and if the Heat were going to make the playoffs and win a championship it would be on the shoulders of Wade. Well, Wade came through and now people are back to anointing Shaq the most dominant player in the league again. It's funny how things work.


Would they even advance out of the first round if Shaq was injured


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

fruitcake said:


> Did you watch the videos I posted in this thread?


I watched a few bias snippets of a few games, but hardly a sample of work.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

fruitcake said:


> well the only heat/wade fans to get it or at least acknowledge what i've been saying so far are PauloCatrino and Dre.
> 
> pretty much everybody else has denied every single valid point that i've made.


When it comes to Vince, there is no valid point. He is a fluke player, notice his playoff perfomance is only being brought up by those who actually watched Nets' games. Everything he does is an anomaly.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

ralaw said:


> I watched a few bias snippets of a few games, but hardly a sample of work.


LOL say no more. You already answered your own question. Biased snippets, why dont you tell us what is untrue about those snippets fruitcake provided. Wade gets more defensive coverage than Vince? Or maybe the Nets team has more offensive weapons than the Heat team?


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

HB said:


> Would they even advance out of the first round if Shaq was injured


I can't answer that, as I'm not a fortuneteller; however, I'm sure you would want me to answer.... yes. However, I know your answer to that would be..... no. Correct? I tend to stay away from assumptions. However, asking that question you are ignoring the same issues that I talked about earlier about team dynamics and chemistry built upon with Shaq in the lineup that shouldn't be ignored.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

HB said:


> LOL say no more. You already answered your own question. Biased snippets, why dont you tell us what is untrue about those snippets fruitcake provided. Wade gets more defensive coverage than Vince? Or maybe the Nets team has more offensive weapons than the Heat team?


I've already said numerous times in this thread Wade benefits from Shaq, which is the essence behind fruitcake posting the videos, so I don't know what more you want from me. The bias part is the video's are a few samples of a a few games, but hardly an indication of what happens on every single play in every single game and this is what you guys are ignoring.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

ralaw said:


> I've already said numerous times in this thread Wade benefits from Shaq, which is the essence behind fruitcake posting the videos, so I don't know what more you want from me. The bias part is the video's are a few samples of a a few games, but hardly an indication of what happens on every single play in every single game and this is what you guys are ignoring.


trust me. Shaq's defender hardly leaves Shaq when Wade is driving.

Where Krstic and Collins' defender leaves EVERY time to help on Vince when he is driving.


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

ralaw said:


> I've already said numerous times in this thread Wade benefits from Shaq, which is the essence behind fruitcake posting the videos, so I don't know what more you want from me. The bias part is the video's are a few samples of a a few games, but hardly an indication of what happens on every single play in every single game and this is what you guys are ignoring.


IF they didnt defend him any different in the playoffs (where the games actually matter), then why should it matter or be any different for regular season games.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

fruitcake said:


> trust me. Shaq's defender hardly leaves Shaq when Wade is driving.
> 
> Where Krstic and Collins' defender leaves EVERY time to help on Vince when he is driving.


Can you blame them? Again, this should be obvious. I never said VC gets single coverage.



HB said:


> IF they didnt defend him any different in the playoffs (where the games actually matter), then why should it matter or be any different for regular season games.


So your going to commit to Wade always being able to play one-on-one when Shaq is in the game? Shaq, must be a bad dude because I've never seen a player indirectly cause a another player to carry the team to a championship.


----------



## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

ralaw said:


> Can you blame them? Again, this should be obvious. I never said VC gets single coverage.


um ok. so you've admitted that Wade has it easier than Vince.

again THIS DOESNT TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM WADE. (if you think i'm implying this, refer to my other posts)


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

completely irrelvant but i thought this was funny. 



> Carter was asked about particular NBA players, such as Kobe Bryant, LeBron James and Dwyane Wade. "Kobe gets away with murder and they let LeBron and Dwyane travel with the ball," he said. Then one camper yelled, "What about T Mac [Tracy McGrady]?" McGrady and Carter are cousins "Ahhh, T Mac stinks," Carter said before he and the campers burst into laughter.


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## Kneejoh (Dec 21, 2004)

fruitcake said:


> completely irrelvant but i thought this was funny.


 Thats ironic, I don't remember Vince ever complaining about him getting away with murder on other players, or when he does his famous 4 step hop and 4 step spin which should be travels.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

thug_immortal8 said:


> Thats ironic, I don't remember Vince ever complaining about him getting away with murder on other players, or when he does his famous 4 step hop and 4 step spin which should be travels.


he was clearly joking around with some kids at a camp.


----------



## John (Jun 9, 2002)

P-Dub34 said:


> Well, to be fair, if Doc Rivers said it, the opposite is automatically true.


Whatever but your avatar needs to go. What that hell Pierce was doing in that avatar? Trying to crossover someone? Does he even have an effective crossover move? Okay aginast James maybe.


----------



## P-Dub34 (May 19, 2005)

> Whatever but your avatar needs to go.


No.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> It's the same thing you do. Shaquille is to Wade as Kidd is to Carter. You downplay Kidd's impact on Carter the same way they downplay Shaquille's impact on Wade, then go off and claim Kidd is the best point guard in the NBA and makes all his teammates better.


Shaq is better than Kidd at making his team better. 

Only I could think of such a bold statement.


----------



## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

f22egl said:


> Shaq is better Kidd than Kidd at making his team better.
> 
> Only I could think of such a bold statement.


that basically summarizes this.



fruitcake said:


> I am not trying to downplay Kidd's impact on Carter because clearly Kidd doesn't impact Vince too much in a half-court offense. A huge reason why Kidd, I believe is the best poitn guard in the NBA is his intangibles. And he does make his teamates better, both on and especailly off the court in Vince's case. I am also not saying Kidd has no effect on Carter on the court because he clearly does. However, because Carter doesn't run, if you watch a Nets game, you'll notice that Carter creates more open shots for Kidd then Kidd creates for Carter. Kidd gets a lot of open threes as a result of Vince's penetration. But when there's a fast break, and Kidd's got the ball, and Carter's the trailer. Watch out. Kidd also makes some nifty passes to Vince who's cutting to the basket once or twice a game, but its not like Kidd makes everything easier for Vince. Most of Vince shot's are created by Vince. I have always critisized Frank, he is not a very creative coach. Way too many Vince and RJ isos. As HB said, the Nets have one of the most predictable offenses in the league.
> 
> Shaq, even in this point of his career, changes the whole dynamic of the game. And he especially gives Wade an open lane to drive to the hoop.


----------



## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

fruitcake said:


> that basically summarizes this.


OMG, somebody else thinks Shaq is better than Jason Kidd?


----------



## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

f22egl said:


> OMG, somebody else thinks Shaq is better than Jason Kidd?


um ok. please read the last 15 million posts in this thread.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

lol, these double standards are way to much

you say Kidd is best at making his teammates better when the arguement fits (best pg threads), and then say Kidd doesnt help his teammates much when that arguement fits (poor Carter has to do everything by himself)

and you guys wonder why I ask to be banned from the Nets forum.....why I consider ****don't attack another fanbase**** in the many boards ive posed at the last 5 or so years.

saying one thing in one thread and completely another in the other thread, putting whatever fits best, just doesnt work

in here I've actually seen it in the same thread by HB. Carter has to share the ball more so it hurts his stats, but he has to do everything by himself :lol:


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> How exactly would Wade and Kidd coexist on the same team, when Wade holds on to the ball a fair amount of time. Whats the point of having a pg like Kidd, if Wade is going to be doing most of the point duties. Get your facts straight WSE


they wouldnt be good together on the same team......Wade's style wouldnt mesh with Kidd's. Wade likes pg's that bring the ball up, then go stand behind the 3 pt line waiting for the wide open 3's Wade's slashing creates

doesnt mean its the same for Carter.....Carter has a better long range shot, so he benefits from Kidd slashing more then Wade would. 

oh, and thanks for ammo for the next time you try to argue Kidd as the best pg in the league....he according to you (in only this thread obviously since it helps your arguement) sucks at everything other then the fast break offense. LMAO


----------



## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> and you guys wonder why I ask to be banned from the Nets forum.....


why don't you ask to be banned from the NBA General Forum?


----------



## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

yo, I didnt say anything other then my opinion. I didnt say any names or anything. Ive been here way to long- I know thats not edit worthy

and since I cant see who edited it is the reason this isnt going through pm.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> why don't you ask to be banned from the NBA General Forum?


because at least there are some sane minds (ie other then the Nets fans on here) to keep it good

pretty much every non Net fan agreed that Kobe and Wade in that order are the best 2 sg's without a doubt in mind.....at least that is what keeps me on here. Havent been posting all that lately though.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> yo, I didnt say anything other then my opinion. I didnt say any names or anything. Ive been here way to long- I know thats not edit worthy
> 
> and since I cant see who edited it is the reason this isnt going through pm.


*I edited your comments because you attacked the entire Nets fanbase, which was unnecessary. *


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> because at least there are some sane minds (ie other then the Nets fans on here) to keep it good
> 
> pretty much every non Net fan agreed that Kobe and Wade in that order are the best 2 sg's without a doubt in mind.....at least that is what keeps me on here. Havent been posting all that lately though.


Aaahh. Claiming Kobe > Wade is easy.

But do you confess Yao > Shaq?


Come on, show your true colours!!!!


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

PauloCatarino said:


> Aaahh. Claiming Kobe > Wade is easy.
> 
> But do you confess Yao > Shaq?
> 
> ...


I think they were about the same last year (Yao was out a lot) and that Yao will be better this year. Shaq is 35 man, everybody breaks down.

but I guess I am wrong about that. Sounds like people are still arguing shaq as one of the best players in the league (when that arguement fits them obviously- In other threads they say how much he is breaking down) :laugh:

and kobe being better then Wade im fine with. I think they are about the same, but I have no issues with people saying Kobe/Lebron are better then Wade. Carter is another story though, as nothing supports that arguement other then something like "arsenal", which means nothing since all "arsenal" does is produce results, and its the results that matter. At least Kobe and Lebron show those results.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Its a pet peeve of mine when some people just look at the last two or three posts and just make assumptions of that. This thread didnt get to 20 pages over night.

BTW WSE why do you always take this so personal, its all opinions my man. You dont have to attack anyone just because they dont agree with you.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> Its a pet peeve of mine when some people just look at the last two or three posts and just make assumptions of that. This thread didnt get to 20 pages over night.
> 
> BTW WSE why do you always take this so personal, its all opinions my man. You dont have to attack anyone just because they dont agree with you.


take it personal?

hey, I guess being called out by name (or wrong name) multiple times does that to ya...

oh, and one of my pet peeves is not saying different things on a thread to thread, or in thread basis, fitting your arguement to whatever sounds best at the time.....and you just refuse you are doing that. Ive pointed it out every time, and will continue to do so.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> I think they were about the same last year (Yao was out a lot) and that Yao will be better this year. Shaq is 35 man, everybody breaks down.
> 
> but I guess I am wrong about that. Sounds like people are still arguing shaq as one of the best players in the league (when that arguement fits them obviously- In other threads they say how much he is breaking down) :laugh:
> 
> and kobe being better then Wade im fine with. I think they are about the same, but I have no issues with people saying Kobe/Lebron are better then Wade. Carter is another story though, as nothing supports that arguement other then something like "arsenal", which means nothing since all "arsenal" does is produce results, and its the results that matter. At least Kobe and Lebron show those results.


Cool post.

I wasn't expecting that.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> take it personal?
> 
> hey, I guess being called out by name (or wrong name) multiple times does that to ya...
> 
> oh, and one of my pet peeves is not saying different things on a thread to thread, or in thread basis, fitting your arguement to whatever sounds best at the time.....and you just refuse you are doing that. Ive pointed it out every time, and will continue to do so.


Regarding the last paragraph, thats too bothersome for me to debate with you. One thing leads to the another, they arent exclusive of each other.


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## L (Sep 20, 2005)

1st tier:
Kobe
Wade

2nd tier:
VC
Allen

3rd:
manu
JJohnson
Hamilton
Gordan
JRICH

4th:
etc...im bored.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> Regarding the last paragraph, thats too bothersome for me to debate with you. One thing leads to the another, they arent exclusive of each other.


saying Kidd is the best pg in the league because of impact one thread and then saying Kidd does nothing for his teammates other then the fast break

how it that not exclusive? Seriously

Ive been saying Wade has help on the court. Im not disagreeing with you there. You just refuse to admit the same with Carter. Carter has one of the best pg's, Wade one of the best centers. They both are capable on their own, but get help scoring on the court by the specialty players they have around them (there is no other shaq in the league, and no other Kidd- few provide the kinds of things these players do, even with them up in age).


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> saying Kidd is the best pg in the league because of impact one thread and then saying Kidd does nothing for his teammates other then the fast break
> 
> how it that not exclusive? Seriously
> 
> Ive been saying Wade has help on the court. Im not disagreeing with you there. You just refuse to admit the same with Carter. Carter has one of the best pg's, Wade one of the best centers. They both are capable on their own, but get help scoring on the court by the specialty players they have around them (there is no other shaq in the league, and no other Kidd- few provide the kinds of things these players do, even with them up in age).


Have you ever heard of context? And just because you are putting words in my mouth, go find me a post where I said Kidd is the best pg in the league. Also find me the thread wher I said Kidd does nothing for his teammates other than the fast break.

Fact Shaq gives Wade the opportunity to play more one on one, FACT Kidd does not give Vince the same opportunity. Whats so hard to understand about that.


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## L (Sep 20, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> saying Kidd is the best pg in the league because of impact one thread and then saying Kidd does nothing for his teammates other then the fast break
> 
> how it that not exclusive? Seriously
> 
> Ive been saying Wade has help on the court. Im not disagreeing with you there. You just refuse to admit the same with Carter. Carter has one of the best pg's, Wade one of the best centers. They both are capable on their own, but get help scoring on the court by the specialty players they have around them (there is no other shaq in the league, and no other Kidd- few provide the kinds of things these players do, even with them up in age).


I agree with that last paragraph.^^ 

Let me just chime my 2cents on the Shaq and kidd impact on players whatever.

I think that even though kidd makes his teammates better and knows when exactly to give him the ball, his presence alone is not enough to give Carter the help he needs in the game. Shaq, being as dominant as he is, cannot be left open. However, Kidd can because he is a average shooter. Shaq pretty much guarantees that his teammates get an easier drive because his defender cannot leave Shaq alone.

Shaq's impact: make defenses struggle and go in havoc defensively when he is on the floor.

Kidd's impact: Setting up his teammates, makes the right decisions.

i know these past few pages have been about VC/wade.
But i dont doubt that kidd is a top 2 pg just because of impact, even though that is the main reason.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

I am still waiting on your findings WSE


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> Fact Shaq gives Wade the opportunity to play more one on one, FACT Kidd does not give Vince the same opportunity. Whats so hard to understand about that.


yes, when it comes to terms of one on one oppurtunities. 

but Wade doesnt have one of the best passers in the league on his team to get him the ball in positions to score. Kidd does stuff for Carter that only Kidd could provide as one of the best passers, and Shaq does stuff for wade that only he could provide

Ive said multiple times that both players do things for their teammates, but in different ways- whats so hard to understand about that? 

you seem to refuse to admit Carter has a favorable affect on Carter. Its hilarious.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> yes, when it comes to terms of one on one oppurtunities.
> 
> but Wade doesnt have one of the best passers in the league on his team to get him the ball in positions to score. Kidd does stuff for Carter that only Kidd could provide as one of the best passers, and Shaq does stuff for wade that only he could provide
> 
> ...


Like I thought you blissfully ignored my last two posts. You tell me am the one skirting around issues lol laughable. For every post you have brought up I am pretty sure I have answered somewhere in this thread.

Fruitcake already mentioned that Kidd's impact on Vince's game is more off the court than on the court. I keep repeating the same thing over and over again and yet you keep ignoring it and asking the same questions. If Kidd really had an impact on Vince's game and really made things as easy as you say, why in the world did it not reflect on his FG%


----------



## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> yes, when it comes to terms of one on one oppurtunities.
> 
> but Wade doesnt have one of the best passers in the league on his team to get him the ball in positions to score. Kidd does stuff for Carter that only Kidd could provide as one of the best passers, and Shaq does stuff for wade that only he could provide
> 
> ...


omg did you read my post on kidd's effect on carter?



> I am not trying to downplay Kidd's impact on Carter because clearly Kidd doesn't impact Vince too much in a half-court offense. A huge reason why Kidd, I believe is the best poitn guard in the NBA is his intangibles. And he does make his teamates better, both on and especailly off the court in Vince's case. I am also not saying Kidd has no effect on Carter on the court because he clearly does. However, because Carter doesn't run, if you watch a Nets game, you'll notice that Carter creates more open shots for Kidd then Kidd creates for Carter. Kidd gets a lot of open threes as a result of Vince's penetration. But when there's a fast break, and Kidd's got the ball, and Carter's the trailer. Watch out. Kidd also makes some nifty passes to Vince who's cutting to the basket once or twice a game, but its not like Kidd makes everything easier for Vince. Most of Vince shot's are created by Vince. I have always critisized Frank, he is not a very creative coach. Way too many Vince and RJ isos. As HB said, the Nets have one of the most predictable offenses in the league.
> 
> Shaq, even in this point of his career, changes the whole dynamic of the game. And he especially gives Wade an open lane to drive to the hoop.


It is so obvious that Shaq's effect on Wade is so much greater than Kidd's on Carter. And i'm not even saying Kidd's effect on Carter isn't great. Its great, but Shaq's effect is so much greater. He is one of the most dominant forces ever to play the game afte rall.


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## L (Sep 20, 2005)

fruitcake said:


> omg did you read my post on kidd's effect on carter?
> 
> 
> 
> It is so obvious that Shaq's effect on Wade is so much greater than Kidd's on Carter. And i'm not even saying Kidd's effect on Carter isn't great. Its great, but Shaq's effect is so much greater. He is one of the most dominant forces ever to play the game afte rall.


Sorry, I ignored the post too.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

HB said:


> If Kidd really had an impact on Vince's game and really made things as easy as you say, why in the world did it not reflect on his FG%


Please refer to my post about Carter's assisted % in 82games.com.

what are we arguing, now?


----------



## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

HB said:


> Like I thought you blissfully ignored my last two posts. You tell me am the one skirting around issues lol laughable. For every post you have brought up I am pretty sure I have answered somewhere in this thread.


exactly what i was thinking.

Vince has given Kidd many many many open 3 pointers the past 2 seasons.

I mean dont believe me, look at the stats. Vince has made Kidd into a spot up 3 point shooter. 

Kidd made 129 threes in just 65 games 2 years ago, and he made 139 threes in 80 games last year. His career high was 133 threes made as a sophomore in Dallas in 1995 but that was in 81 games.

Kidd helps Vince a lot, but Vince helps Kidd just as much.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Please refer to my post about Carter's assisted % in 82games.com.
> 
> what are we arguing, now?


that doesnt say anything, because clearly the ball is in Kidd's hands, he is the PG. He'll give ito Vince, his primary scorer most of the time. It doesnt say how the pass was delivered. It could just be a pass and then Vince takes a couple of dribbles and shoots. 

What other players on the Nets handle the ball?

Its either Kidd or Carter handling the ball 90% of the time. So if its not Kidd passing to Carter, then who is?


----------



## HB (May 1, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Please refer to my post about Carter's assisted % in 82games.com.
> 
> what are we arguing, now?


No need to drag this. I told you what I thought of that. Did you know that the same 82games.com has Wade with an eFG% of 39.3% and I am pretty sure most people will think there is something wrong with that. After all dude is money from midrange. And just because it says 55% of Vince's jumpers were assisted, doesnt necessarily mean it all came from Kidd.


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

stats dont tell the story, thats another point i've been making all along.

thats why i try to find real evidence like videos.

on somebody's sig i think its Dre? it says like Watch the Game not the Stats.

but WSE here lives by the stats.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Yawn* this is getting boring. It is quite obvious that no minds will be changed on this. Those of you who think Wade is clearly better than Vince, good for you. Those who think otherwise, same to you also.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> If Kidd really had an impact on Vince's game and really made things as easy as you say, why in the world did it not reflect on his FG%


It did. He just isnt top notch anymore. He would of been less then 43% w/o Kidd on his team in huis present state

if I was in the nba, even if I had Kidd/Shaq on my team, I still wouldnt shoot over 10%. lol. You cant expect Carter to have the percentages Wade does because of Wade's shot selection, and how great he is at slashing

and since you say you answer everything, I have posted this plenty of times without an answer. 


> as for "arsenal", as people know this comment I hate most of all. Put it this way, why should how a person score mean more then the fact that they do score? Why should a player who does everything well be called a better "scorer" then one that does a few things great, when that great leads to more scoring on a higher percentage.....it doesnt make sense....whoever scores the best at the best efficiency is the better scorer, not the one who does little things better........wow, Vince could shoot the 3 well, could slash well, could get to the line. Doesnt make up for the things Wade does great, which in his case is slashing. If the slashing gets him more points at a better efficiency, he is a better scorer. Ways to score mean nothing, only the end result does. Pretty direct, right?
> 
> perfect example of my above comment- Raef Lafrenz (or insert many other random centers) scores in more ways then shaq (inside, outside, midrange, good at ft's), but shaq does the bulldozing thing great. Who would say Raef is a better scorer then Shaq? You see, it doesnt matter who one scores (when comparing scoring) as long as they get it done at a good percentage.


me and you just seem to watch the nba in different ways. I care about results, you care about things like "arsenal"

as for me going back and looking for your posts, I am not going to today because its a waste of time. You know you have said those things at different times- if you dont admit that you did, then me going and finding those things arent going to change your mind

and watching MNF puts a tear in my eye right now. Wade first player in NBA history to score 35+ in 4 consecutive finals wins- awesome. :biggrin:


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> It did. He just isnt top notch anymore. He would of been less then 43% w/o Kidd on his team in huis present state
> 
> if I was in the nba, even if I had Kidd/Shaq on my team, I still wouldnt shoot over 10%. lol. You cant expect Carter to have the percentages Wade does because of Wade's shot selection, and how great he is at slashing
> 
> ...



Once again please do not put words in my mouth. Thats all I ask for


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

fruitcake said:


> but WSE here lives by the stats.


results sound a lot better :biggrin: 

And I am happy to say I live by results more then things like "arsenal" and "different ways to score"


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

HB said:


> No need to drag this. I told you what I thought of that. Did you know that the same 82games.com has Wade with an eFG% of 39.3% and I am pretty sure most people will think there is something wrong with that. After all dude is money from midrange. And just because it says 55% of Vince's jumpers were assisted, doesnt necessarily mean it all came from Kidd.


You can't beat math.

And it's not (obviously) Kidd doing all the passing/assisting. Other pkayers do it. Kidd just does it more (much more) than all the other Nets' player.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> You can't beat math.
> 
> And it's not (obviously) Kidd doing all the passing/assisting. Other pkayers do it. Kidd just does it more (much more) than all the other Nets' player.


Watch games, not stats- Pacers Fan


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> Once again please do not put words in my mouth. Thats all I ask for


im not..... :laugh:

and since you say you answer everything, I want the arsenal thing answered. :biggrin:


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> im not..... :laugh:
> 
> and since you say you answer everything, I want the arsenal thing answered. :biggrin:


and i want the 5000 posts that i have in this thread answered as well.

cause you seems to ignore every point i make, and go after HB.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

HB said:


> Watch games, not stats- Pacers Fan


You're not drunk enough if yo fall down and hit the floor only once - Dean Martin.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> im not..... :laugh:
> 
> and since you say you answer everything, I want the arsenal thing answered. :biggrin:


 Its no use. I dont know why I am even replying, since you have ingored a couple of my posts in the last page. If you cant put one plus one together by now then its a waste of time. Why does Vince have to have that arsenal, why does he need to have more ways to score. Maybe just maybe because things arent as easy for him as they are for Wade.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> You're not drunk enough if yo fall down and hit the floor only once - Dean Martin.


Its quite obvious that you just went to 82games.com did a quick check on Vince's number and gladly took that as your conclusion. In that case, do you agree with the stat they have on there that clearly shows Wade is a terrible shooter. Thanks!


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

fruitcake said:


> and i want the 5000 posts that i have in this thread answered as well.
> 
> cause you seems to ignore every point i make, and go after HB.


because havent we finished our arguement already? Look at page 17- Posts 248-254. Im done with you. I havent quoted anything of yours since. 

and this new arguement of kidd not helping other then in the fastbreak- im going through HB. I could repeat the same arguement with you, but wouldnt that be kind of worthless? Dont you think?

I still dont think vidoes mean all thatr much. You could keep on repeating your isolated video remark, and I will repeat the same thing

so why are you still talking to me directly? Argue your point, dont put everything through me.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

HB said:


> Its quite obvious that you just went to 82games.com did a quick check on Vince's number and gladly took that as your conclusion. In that case, do you agree with the stat they have on there that clearly shows Wade is a terrible shooter. Thanks!


I have no problems in stating that vince Carter has more range (more, MORE range) in his shot than Wade. Does that suffice?


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> I have no problems in stating that vince Carter has more range (more, MORE range) in his shot than Wade. Does that suffice?


!

How exactly does that answer the question of not entirely judging a player by stats. And how exactly did you answer the question that do you agree that Wade is a terrible shooter by 82games.com standards?


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## fruitcake (Mar 20, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> so why are you still talking to me directly? Argue your point, dont put everything through me.


I enjoy arguing directly with you :biggrin: 

when ralaw was arguing with me and HB earlier today, it was boring.


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## reHEATed (Jun 29, 2003)

HB said:


> Its no use. I dont know why I am even replying, since you have ingored a couple of my posts in the last page. If you cant put one plus one together by now then its a waste of time. Why does Vince have to have that arsenal, why does he need to have more ways to score. Maybe just maybe because things arent as easy for him as they are for Wade.


ok, so we are done as well.

I will end this by saying RESULTS. All that needs to be said in your results vs. "aresenal" arguement. It doesnt matter how you score, as long as its done and done at high efficiency. Wade scores more, and does it with a lot more efficiency. 

you could argue "ways of scoring" as much as you want. It doesnt matter to me as the end result is scoring, and everything of substance (efg, ts, fg, points) shows Wade.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> they wouldnt be good together on the same team......Wade's style wouldnt mesh with Kidd's. Wade likes pg's that bring the ball up, then go stand behind the 3 pt line waiting for the wide open 3's Wade's slashing creates
> 
> doesnt mean its the same for Carter.....Carter has a better long range shot, so he benefits from Kidd slashing more then Wade would.
> 
> oh, and thanks for ammo for the next time you try to argue Kidd as the best pg in the league....he according to you (in only this thread obviously since it helps your arguement) sucks at everything other then the fast break offense. LMAO


 Kidd slashes and pass it out to Vince? Laughable. It's actually Kidd on the fastbreak dishing it to Vince for a 3 pointer, but since VC rarly runs and it's most of the time RJ receiving those passes, your arguement fails. Carter does not benefit from Kidd slashing neither fastbreak, it's the other way around. Most of his points are from half court sets or isos. Better yet, explain to me the raise of Kidd 3 point shot attempts and FG%? Do your homework next time.

By the way, Kidd is not the best PG in the league. He's the second best PG.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> It did. He just isnt top notch anymore. He would of been less then 43% w/o Kidd on his team in huis present state
> 
> if I was in the nba, even if I had Kidd/Shaq on my team, I still wouldnt shoot over 10%. lol. You cant expect Carter to have the percentages Wade does because of Wade's shot selection, and how great he is at slashing


Another clueless post? Let me first get this straight, Kidd does have an impact on Vince's game but not to the point of Shaq have on Wade. Last season Carter was just struggling with his shots, and that's normal for NBA's superstars, when your hot your hot and when your cold your cold. The year before though, he shot wonderfully from the field, and in this year's playoffs when it mattered the most his FG% went up as well, I guess he isn't top notch anymore considering these were his most recent performances? Next, I find it easier to break down your arguments without even sweating.


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## Air Fly (Apr 19, 2005)

wadeshaqeddie said:


> who is SWS


That's you of course, who else I would be talking about WSD - I just forgot your name since we haven't debated for a pretty long time.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

fruitcake said:


> Please watch some Nets games before you make this statement.


Both you and HB misunderstood my statement. This is what I said that was replied to:



> It's the same thing you do. Shaquille is to Wade as Kidd is to Carter. You downplay Kidd's impact on Carter the same way they downplay Shaquille's impact on Wade, then go off and claim Kidd is the best point guard in the NBA and makes all his teammates better.


I agree with you in the way that I really don't think that Kidd helps Carter that much, but I also don't think that Shaquille helps Wade that much. I think some of you are playing that angle too much. My point was that a Nets fan calling out a Heat fan for downplaying Shaquille's impact while placing him as the number 1 center in another thread is ironic, because they do the same with Kidd. Nets fans swear Kidd makes his teammates better, has all these intangibles, claim he is the best point guard in other threads, but downplay his impact on Carter's game in this thread so that they can move forward with this idea that Wade plays this easy free flowing game of easy dunks and open lanes, while Carter lives in a quadruple team world of swarming defenses.



fruitcake said:


> Shaq, even in this point of his career, changes the whole dynamic of the game. And he especially gives Wade an open lane to drive to the hoop.


People said this about Kobe Bryant too. Yet he has had his best season of his career without Shaquille. When they were both on the Lakers, Kobe also had monster games without Shaquille when he was out with injuries. Kobe never missed a beat without Shaquille, only the team did, because obviously losing any of your top 3-4 players is going to hurt the team, let alone your best or 2nd best player. Kobe had no problem playing his game without Shaquille, and Wade is showing much of the same. Wade has no problem playing his game without Shaquille. Carter has no problem playing his game without Kidd. 

Like someone said, Kidd and O'Neal are basically irrelevant to this comparison. Bringing them up is just trying to make something out of nothing to nuetralize Wade's advantages over Carter.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

My top 5 SG rankings: 

1) Vince Carter
2) Ray Allen
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Manu Ginobli
5) Kobe Bryant


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## CrossOver (May 19, 2003)

EHL said:


> My top 5 SG rankings:
> 
> 1) Vince Carter
> 2) Ray Allen
> ...


Internet sarcasm at it's finest. 

Well, it's sarcasm for most posters except Airfly.


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## BBB (Jan 19, 2005)

P-Dub34 said:


> Nobody's debating that (I don't think).


So is everyone just debating for dozens of posts who's 2nd to kobe? jeez. 

give me wade


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

*_Dre_*

Wow, this thread seems to have gotten pretty juvenile since I last read it. Instead of commenting on all the petty bickering, I’ll simply respond to a couple of things _Dre_ posted and then get out of the way.



_Dre_ said:


> …when you have shooting guards who are this close skill wise, things like leadership can be the deciding factor. I mean..take two equally skilled guys. One thrives under pressure, is clutch, sets up his teammates, doesn't whine in the press...and the other one mopes, cracks under pressure, and doesn't want to own up to his responsibility as a franchise player. I'm taking the first one.
> 
> People tend to forget...when money is invested in these guys, things like leadership are considered. It's all part of one package, and for us to leave things like that out of the discussion is more of a lowblow of sorts to the guys who step up and are uniting factors than it is a mere small factor that should be ignored.


I’m not saying that leadership should no be considered. I’m simply saying that you, personally, have no way of knowing how much leadership a player shows on a game-by-game basis. One cannot truly ascertain leadership ability by taking a sampling of interview sound bites, highlighted actions in nationally televised games, and media-influenced player perceptions. Unless you are in the locker room or on the practice court, you cannot speak intelligently about leadership abilities. I don’t use those factors because I don’t have the ability to measure them. It’s just that simple.



_Dre_ said:


> Why do you place him in this category? That seems silly to, instead of awaiting this season, just drop him a tier instead.
> 
> I'm with the belief that a players last offering oncourt should be used in a ranking, unless it's a ridiculous case. This is hardly that, as he's only had two bad years, and even when oncourt, he's been pretty much the same. It's notlike he was going out there with a bum knee and clearly being slow and out of place. He just had to shut it down to rest himself for awhile, which is the only thing you can do with a back condition.


Then why is it silly? In the last three seasons, T-Mac has averaged 64 games per year, Ray Allen has averaged 71, and D Wade has averaged 71. I happen to think that 64 games of Tracy McGrady is more similar in value to 71 games of Ray Allen than to 71 games of D Wade. Is that such a silly assertion to make?


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

McGrady is a 3 and will play the 3 for the rest of his career.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: _Dre_*



RollWithEm said:


> I’m not saying that leadership should no be considered. I’m simply saying that you, personally, have no way of knowing how much leadership a player shows on a game-by-game basis. One cannot truly ascertain leadership ability by taking a sampling of interview sound bites, highlighted actions in nationally televised games, and media-influenced player perceptions. Unless you are in the locker room or on the practice court, you cannot speak intelligently about leadership abilities. I don’t use those factors because I don’t have the ability to measure them. It’s just that simple.
> 
> *I'm not arguing that this is the case. I'm arguing what I said in the first place. *
> 
> ...


:laugh: I posted this stuff so long ago RWE...

And Carter/Wade guys, I don't think you've argued Shox vs. Wades yet, might as well go there too.


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## ralaw (Feb 24, 2005)

SO when are we going to get the Kobe Bean vs. Vince Carter discussion going? I'm sure this thread could stand to go on for another 24 pages.

VC has a more diverse arsenal of offensive moves. :angel:


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

*Yet Another Response*



_Dre_ said:


> I'm not arguing that this is the case. I'm arguing what I said in the first place.


You argued that not taking into account leadership is unfair to those players who are good leaders. I’m arguing that leadership cannot be accurately taken into account since we do not have the capacity or the resources to measure it.



_Dre_ said:


> Value in terms of what? I don't get what you're saying. Are you basically disproving your argument that he hasn't been injured all that much compared to these players?


I’m saying that if T-Mac played as many games each year as Wade and Kobe, he’d belong in their tier. He doesn’t. He plays on average 7 fewer games per year than they do (only taking into account the last three seasons). At the same time, I think he belongs in the second tier because his value to his team over 64 games is similar to Ray Allen and Vince Carter’s value to their teams over 71 games, IMO.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Just wanted to put my 2 cents in here....

Wade is the best 2 guard, by far. The essential reason for this, in brief, is that Wade uses his athleticism and talent to get good shots for both himself and his teammates, while the Vince's, Kobe's, TMac's (and AI's and Gilbert's) of the world use their athleticism and talent to justify the taking of bad shots. So, its Wade @ #1, and you can all quibble yourselves to death about how the rest of the otherworldly talented but tragically flawed wing scorers should be ranked.

Have a day.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> Just wanted to put my 2 cents in here....
> 
> Wade is the best 2 guard, by far. The essential reason for this, in brief, is that Wade uses his athleticism and talent to get good shots for both himself and his teammates, while the Vince's, Kobe's, TMac's (and AI's and Gilbert's) of the world use their athleticism and talent to justify the taking of bad shots. So, its Wade @ #1, and you can all quibble yourselves to death about how the rest of the otherworldly talented but tragically flawed wing scorers should be ranked.
> 
> Have a day.


 Yes! But I don't think he's better than Kobe.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

_Dre_ said:


> Yes! But I don't think he's better than Kobe.


That just might be the perfect response for this post in this thread.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: Yet Another Response*



RollWithEm said:


> You argued that not taking into account leadership is unfair to those players who are good leaders. I’m arguing that leadership cannot be accurately taken into account since we do not have the capacity or the resources to measure it.
> 
> *Everything doesn't always have to have a stat to accompany it. We know when players are *******es, we need no stats for that, but why can't it work the other way around? A leader is apparent in my opinion, not in every situation, but in clutch moments, especially in the playoffs, you can always tell who steps up, who is the director of the offense, etc. You don't need precise measurements, but you also don't need to disregard leadership because there's no stats for it. *
> 
> ...


..


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## Sixerfanforlife (Jun 23, 2005)

Dwyane Wade does get great shots and yes, he is the best 2-guard in the game of basketball. But here you haters go again, finding a way to diminish Allen Iverson's impact on the game of basketball. Allen Iverson might take a few bad wingers here and there, but, his impact on the game is this simple: 9.9 FTA....Copy those numbers in your JR.HIGH Bball game and lets talk. There's only 1 player who can shoot that many attempts, Allen Iverson.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

Sixerfanforlife said:


> Dwyane Wade does get great shots and yes, he is the best 2-guard in the game of basketball. But here you haters go again, finding a way to diminish Allen Iverson's impact on the game of basketball. Allen Iverson might take a few bad wingers here and there, but, his impact on the game is this simple: 9.9 FTA....Copy those numbers in your JR.HIGH Bball game and lets talk. There's only 1 player who can shoot that many attempts, Allen Iverson.


Wrong thread buddy. AI wasnt ranked as a shooting guard. Take that to the point guard thread


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> Just wanted to put my 2 cents in here....
> 
> Wade is the best 2 guard, by far. The essential reason for this, in brief, is that Wade uses his athleticism and talent to get good shots for both himself and his teammates, while the Vince's, Kobe's, TMac's (and AI's and Gilbert's) of the world use their athleticism and talent to justify the taking of bad shots. So, its Wade @ #1, and you can all quibble yourselves to death about how the rest of the otherworldly talented but tragically flawed wing scorers should be ranked.
> 
> Have a day.


I think Wade didnt do it on purpose it was just happened that his game, his style of play looks like he is playing the right way. He drives the ball a little bit better than Kobe and Carter so he tends to get to the hoop more. He doesnt have a consistent jump shot on the move so he would rather and have to wait for the defense to collapse to kick the ball out to open shooters.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

SeaNet said:


> That just might be the perfect response for this post in this thread.


What's that supposed to mean? The "yes" was in reference to the Carter/Wade argument. I don't think Wade's athleticism to get good shots overshadows Kobe's athleticsm that mask bad ones.

Reasons:

A. Kobe shoots more, so bad shots are bound to occur.

B. Kobe's talent/ability to get shots up are easily the best in the league. He has the best offensive arsenal in the league, with only Duncan rivaling him, and his athleticism is still otherwordly. He has the best of both worlds. Wade is only a slightly better penetrator, but really has nothing but a crossover and the cheap pump fake which draws fouls to get shots. Kobe blows by him in that regard. 

And Kobe's easily the better defender, though he doesn't always display maximum capability.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HB said:


> Wrong thread buddy. AI wasnt ranked as a shooting guard. Take that to the point guard thread


:whoknows: 

I would've ranked him at 2, but I decided for the sake of argument to put him with the point guards. It's not strange at all to consider Iverson with the shooting guards, he fits right in.

With all due respect, I didn't take RWE's position rules into account when I did my rankings.


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

John said:


> I think Wade didnt do it on purpose it was just happened that his game, his style of play looks like he is playing the right way. He drives the ball a little bit better than Kobe and Carter so he tends to get to the hoop more. He doesnt have a consistent jump shot on the move so he would rather and have to wait for the defense to collapse to kick the ball out to open shooters.


Good post


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

HB said:


> Good post


Rep plase! No one gives me rep for quite some time. Let me elborate. Jordan in his 30s, Penny when he was 23-24 should only be named as "playing the right way!"

Jordan when 30s was like a catch and shoot player and only dominant the ball when it is necessary. Dont get caught up with the NBA final games that Jordan played and you think he dominated the ball for the entier season with the Bulls when he was 30s. Jordan was a completely team player where he would still pretty much get to the hoop probably better than Kobe at 32 years old than Kobe's 28 years old. But Jordan learned to be an off the ball player and take good shots in the flow and go one on one when it is necessary.

Penny in his prime wasnt like Wade trying to slash all the time and find open shooters all day. He actually used Shaq to MAX and direct guys such as Dennis Scott, Anderson or Horace Grant on the post to let them get involved in the game so they can contribute effectively for the rest of the game.

Seanet, you are a good basktbetball fan, but you arent there yet interms of finding out if it was the guy playing the game the right way on purposes or it was just that his style of play. Wade to me surely isnt doing it the right way on purposes.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

John said:


> Rep plase! No one gives me rep for quite some time.


I was going to rep you, john. Swear to God. But then you mentioned Jordan. No rep.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

John said:


> I think Wade didnt do it on purpose it was just happened that his game, his style of play looks like he is playing the right way. He drives the ball a little bit better than Kobe and Carter so he tends to get to the hoop more. He doesnt have a consistent jump shot on the move so he would rather and have to wait for the defense to collapse to kick the ball out to open shooters.


I disagree. Watching the playoffs and the Finals, what stood out was how often Wade's shots (specifically his jumpshots) were from exactly the same spots on the floor. He just kept working the D over again and again to get back to those spots, where he was comfortable and where he could take a well-balanced jumper from. That couldn't have been a coincidence.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> I was going to rep you, john. Swear to God. But then you mentioned Jordan. No rep.


I dont need Portugalain to give me rep!


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

John said:


> I dont need Portugalain to give me rep!


Settle down, young grasshopper.

I've given you rep quite some times (well, that was in the old days, whe john's posting wasn't hurting as much as Penny's knees). I'd do it again, if you elevate yourself from surface level.

PM ne if necessary!


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## L (Sep 20, 2005)

John said:


> I dont need Portugalain to give me rep!


Its Portuguese i think.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

2dumb2live said:


> Its Portuguese i think.


*YA THINK?????*


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## L (Sep 20, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> *YA THINK?????*


Well, did i spell it right?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> Wade is the best 2 guard, by far. The essential reason for this, in brief, is that Wade uses his athleticism and talent to get good shots for both himself and his teammates, while the Vince's, Kobe's, TMac's (and AI's and Gilbert's) of the world use their athleticism and talent to justify the taking of bad shots. So, its Wade @ #1, and you can all quibble yourselves to death about how the rest of the otherworldly talented but tragically flawed wing scorers should be ranked.


Both Ray Allen and Paul Pierce are more efficient scorers than Wade, even if they are taking longer shots. So is Gilbert Arenas, to throw out one of your examples. 

Either way, you can talk about "right way" basketball until you're blue in the face. What matters is winning and what players have an impact most condusive to winning. I don't care how "hoosiers' your jumpshot is, if you're losing, it's not the "right" way. Kobe has three titles to show for himself. He is at the top of the list. Wade is right behind him.


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Both Ray Allen and Paul Pierce are more efficient scorers than Wade, even if they are taking longer shots. So is Gilbert Arenas, to throw out one of your examples.
> 
> Either way, you can talk about "right way" basketball until you're blue in the face. What matters is winning and what players have an impact most condusive to winning. I don't care how "hoosiers' your jumpshot is, if you're losing, it's not the "right" way. Kobe has three titles to show for himself. He is at the top of the list. Wade is right behind him.


Kobe has 3 titles Shaq won for him. And I didn't mention anything about efficiency. I talked about getting good shots. You should also feel free to twist the discussion to whatever you desire w/ your PER stats and your something other stats, and your efficiency and your titles that other people won for other people till you are blue in the face.


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## Hiro! (Sep 10, 2006)

SeaNet said:


> Kobe has 3 titles Shaq won for him. And I didn't mention anything about efficiency. I talked about getting good shots. You should also feel free to twist the discussion to whatever you desire w/ your PER stats and your something other stats, and your efficiency and your titles that other people won for other people till you are blue in the face.


repped.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

SeaNet said:


> Kobe has 3 titles Shaq won for him. And I didn't mention anything about efficiency. I talked about getting good shots. You should also feel free to twist the discussion to whatever you desire w/ your PER stats and your something other stats, and your efficiency and your titles that other people won for other people till you are blue in the face.


So it comes down to titles, accomplishments, stats, defense vs. getting good shots. That's a pretty suspect way of evaluating players. I think you just hate him personally and let that cloud your judgement, and you've admitted that before, but whatever floats your boat man. 

Serious question, do you think Steve Nash is the best player in the league, and if not, do you think he is atleast better than Dwyane Wade? Nash gets himself and others more good shots than anyone in the league, by far.


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## BBB (Jan 19, 2005)

SeaNet hating on Kobe? 

damnn i definitely didn't see this coming..


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> So it comes down to titles, accomplishments, stats, defense vs. getting good shots. That's a pretty suspect way of evaluating players. I think you just hate him personally and let that cloud your judgement, and you've admitted that before, but whatever floats your boat man.







PauloCatarino said:


> *YA THINK?????*


..


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

Sir Patchwork said:


> So it comes down to titles, accomplishments, stats, defense vs. getting good shots. That's a pretty suspect way of evaluating players. I think you just hate him personally and let that cloud your judgement, and you've admitted that before, but whatever floats your boat man.
> 
> Serious question, do you think Steve Nash is the best player in the league, and if not, do you think he is atleast better than Dwyane Wade? Nash gets himself and others more good shots than anyone in the league, by far.


You've strayed so far afield, I'm not even going to bother.


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## IbizaXL (Sep 21, 2005)

-Kobe

-Wade

-nothing else matters... :wink:


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

*_Dre_ Day*



_Dre_ said:


> A leader is apparent in my opinion, not in every situation, but in clutch moments, especially in the playoffs, you can always tell who steps up, who is the director of the offense, etc. You don't need precise measurements, but you also don't need to disregard leadership because there's no stats for it.


Leadership is far from apparent. Let’s say you see Tracy McGrady take over games in the fourth quarter by scoring points and setting up his teammates. Does that mean he’s a leader? What if he’s a horrible guy in the locker room? What if he makes practice unbearable for his teammates because of his attitude, but they never televise it? You, as a member of the basketball viewing public, cannot possibly determine the difference between the leadership abilities of Vince Carter and Dwayne Wade because you see them for less than 2% of the time they are with their team. If one guy is more of a “leader” in these clutch moments you talk about and another guy is more of a leader off the court, in practice sessions, in the locker room, and in huddles, who is the better leader? How can you possibly know? You can’t. 



_Dre_ said:


> When a guy only misses 7 fewer games, they shouldn't be downgraded a tier, because their ability is still easily on the upper tier. This is the case with Mcgrady. I could see if it were a Grant Hill situation, but 7 games a year doesn't take Mcgrady's skills, easily rivaling Kobe's and Wade's into the second tier. Not IMO.


What difference do 7 games make? Well, last season 7 games was the difference between 5th place and 11th place in the East. 7 games was the difference between having a legit shot at a title run and being in the lottery. 7 games per season can get your coach fired. 7 games won’t change your skills, but 7 games will change your relative value to your team compared to other players at your position.



> And that average really isn't fair, because the vast majority of those games were last season.


Yes, the McGrady missed a bunch of games last season. That’s very typical with his type of back injury. It just keeps getting worse. It doesn’t really get better. Look what happened to Larry Bird at the end of his career. I don’t think McGrady will ever reclaim a spot in the top tier.


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## VC_15 (Jun 17, 2005)

Kobe & Wade >> Vince. Get that Ray Allen crap out of here.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

*Re: _Dre_ Day*



RollWithEm said:


> Leadership is far from apparent. Let’s say you see Tracy McGrady take over games in the fourth quarter by scoring points and setting up his teammates. Does that mean he’s a leader? What if he’s a horrible guy in the locker room? What if he makes practice unbearable for his teammates because of his attitude, but they never televise it?
> 
> What if, what if, what if...if all this stuff was...it would be televised, and I think you know that.
> 
> ...


....


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## Jizzy (Aug 24, 2005)

Well in all honesty, I would rather have Ray Allen over Carter. I do beleive Ray Allen is the better player of the two but that's just me.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

*Responses*



> Like I said, it's apparent who the harder to deal with players of the league are, so how is leadership not apparent?


A player who is a cancer in the locker room cannot be an effective leader. The converse of this statement, however, is not necessarily true. A player who is not a leader does not necessarily have to be a cancer in the locker room. Spotting a stain on an organization is easy, I’ll give it to you. If a guy is constantly bad-mouthing his teammates and arguing with his coach, we will eventually find out about it. Still, you’re avoiding my central contention. What if you have two guys who are not cancers to their teams? Let’s take Michael Redd and Rip Hamilton for example. Which one is the better leader? Redd takes over in the fourth quarter more often out of necessity. He doesn’t have nearly as talented a team as does Hamilton. Does that make him the better leader? Hamilton takes a reduced role in order to benefit the production of his teammates. Isn’t that also leadership? In order to know which one of them is the better leader, you would physically have to be at their practice, in their locker rooms, and in their huddles during games. You are not in those places. You cannot possibly purport to know which one of these two players is the better leader. You simply don’t have the access or the resources.



> The commentators tell you how much Ron Artest got fined just as much as they let you know how great Wade is everytime he's on camera. And no, that's not to say believe all commentators or anything, but it's even less about closed doors to me then it is oncourt.


I’m glad you brought up Ron Artest. He’s got a reputation for being a jerk. However, last year many Kings players commented on Artest’s leadership abilities in a very favorable manner. In this article for example, Artest is referred to as the Kings’ emotional leader. Mike Jarvis often referred to Artest as the leader of his St. John’s squad. At the same time, Dwayne Wade seems to be more of the lead-by-example type. I honestly think many NBA players would consider Artest a better leader than Wade. How can you possibly say definitively that Wade is the better leader? You simply don’t know. You can’t know. However, we both know that Wade’s PER last season was 27.6 and that Artest’s was only 15.2. Look at that. In your own example, you proved that stats are exponentially more valuable than _perceptions_ of leadership. Keep in mind, that’s all you have when you discuss leadership. You must, by definition, use perception and not fact.



> What star, or for that matter, what player is a jerk in practice and we have never found out about? People even outed MJ for this type of stuff. And even still, is that not to say he's a leader? Not at all, because when it got to the 4th quarter, who had the ball?


Michael Jordan was a leader, yes. Was he a better leader than Larry Bird? How about better than Bill Russell? Unless you are actually there with those teams, you cannot possibly say which of the 3 was the best leader.



> It's not obvious, or an outright stat, but I'm not going to condone disregarding it just because it's an abstract idea.


It’s abstract, yes, but more importantly _you_ have no way to determine it. Therefore, I don’t think it has a place in this thread.



> That's irrelevant to the conversation, especially when I'm from the school of thought that ability/skill and team don't mix.


If you have the most ability in the entire league and you fail to produce on the floor in a fashion that leads to team success, you are completely useless.



> It doesn't really matter what happened in those 7 games he missed...are you telling me that the 65 or so games he does play are fluke?


I’m not saying those games are flukes at all. I think he plays at a top tier level when he plays. I’d rather have a guy who plays at a slightly lesser level (i.e. Dwayne Wade) for more games each season than a guy who plays at a slightly greater level (McGrady) for fewer games each season. It’s a very simple concept. I think Dwayne Wade contributes more in 71 games than Tracy McGrady contributes in 65 games.



> He's a great player, and has great talent, their skill over 72 games is not so much better than his that he's on a different tier. It's about skill and talent. Of course there are always exceptions, and I'm willing to place injuries in there, but this is too short a time for me.


It is too short of a time to make a final assertion, but these rankings are based on personal opinions. It is my opinion that McGrady will never fully recover from this injury.



> Bottomline I just disagree that his one season automatically puts an asterisk on his name. It's too kneejerk and previous season-based for me.


Calling it one season is an underestimate of his decline. His PER in his last two seasons is 22.56. His PER over his previous 4 seasons was 26.42. He hasn’t become a horrible player, but he has gotten noticeably worse. In fact, his PER has steadily declined in each of his last 3 seasons. Don’t dismiss this injury.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Jizzy said:


> Well in all honesty, I would rather have Ray Allen over Carter. I do beleive Ray Allen is the better player of the two but that's just me.


I agree.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

SeaNet said:


> And I didn't mention anything about efficiency. I talked about getting good shots.


Good shots are those a player can knock down at high efficiency.

So, if you're talking about one, you're necessarily talking about the other.


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## CocaineisaHelluvaDrug (Aug 24, 2006)

iverson

kobe


the rest


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