# Chandler is a 'winner'



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Ok...so someone I know works...no....lets say _does business_...with the Houston Rockets organization. Knows people, hears things.

Here's an interesting bit:

JVG wants Francis moved and doesn't believe it's necessary to get a superstar in return. One or more of the players that MikeDC refers to a "marginal star" would be good enough if he's a team player. He's more interested in parts, not players. He doesn't want rookies, and he wants these "marginal stars" (my expression, not necessarily JVG's) to be players he calls "winners". Refers more to attitude and approach to the game than actual history.

Apparently one of the players listed was Jalen Rose. Yeah...I went  when I heard that too. Guess who else was on that list?

Tyson Chandler. 

Those are the only two players mentioned to me. But on some Rockets bbs's on the web, apparently there's an insider that says that Francis and his agent for some reason now have the firm belief that he'll be moved in the off-season.

Apparently management isn't really crazy about JVG yet though, and will ask for a star or a lottery pick in return. They've talked to Charlotte about the number 4, and to Toronto about...yes...Jalen Rose and their pick.

Gives some credence to what I was told.

Of course, nothing is going to shake out until the draft positions are known...but I thought you guys might like to know what JVG thinks of Tyson. 

Peace.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

a Francis/Carter tandem probably wouldn't win anything important, but they could be really fun to watch.

Chandler, with some added strength, could be a good enforcer to put with Yao in the paint. I don't really want anyone on the Rockets other than Yao, though. or Nachbar, but not at the expense of Tyson.


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## unBULLievable (Dec 13, 2002)

Perhaps if we send Stevie Franchise to Golden State for Jason Richardson or Pietrus&Dunleavy???


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> Ok...so someone I know works...no....lets say _does business_...with the Houston Rockets organization. Knows people, hears things.
> 
> Here's an interesting bit:
> ...


The Bulls and Rockets could theoretically hook up on a trade with Tyson and Francis as the principles. 

Tyson and Erob for Francis works under the Cap. Tyson and Scottie for Francis would work as well. I'm guessing that's not enough to get him, but I'm not sure how to sweeten it without giving away our pick. Involving a third team and trading them a resigned Jamal could work with Tyson, but we know how hard to pull of that is. Tyson and Yao would be flat out amazing together. There couldn't be a better fit for Tyson to play with. 

I would want Francis as our 2 guard only. He's small, but that's his natural postion.


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## ace20004u (Jun 19, 2002)

Keep Tyson, he IS a winner.


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## unBULLievable (Dec 13, 2002)

Perhaps you should change the thread title to Rockets interested in Chandler.


You think Steve Francis who wanted to be selected by the Bulls in 1999 can bring this team back to respectability???

Hinrich&Francis backcourt????

mmmmm...


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

I could see Jalen Rose really working well for Van Gundy. He can be a good team defender in the right system. He's a good shooter when he doesn't have a broken hand. He can play point...

He would be a nice fit and if they got a top 4 draft pick too, then that would be a great deal for Houston.

As far as trading Chandler for Francis...well...if we got Okafor...that might kind of work.

Francis would basically be allowed to go willy nilly from the SG position which could have some nice results.

We'd still have a hole at the 3 though.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> We'd still have a hole at the 3 though.


"Keep smiling, keep shining, knowing you can always count on me,
for sure, that's what Dengs are for!"

Well, now we know who Dion Warwick thinks is our answer at the 3.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> 
> Apparently one of the players listed was Jalen Rose. Yeah...I went  when I heard that too. Guess who else was on that list?


"Listed" where, exactly?


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> "Keep smiling, keep shining, knowing you can always count on me,
> ...


But we wouldn't have Deng if we drafted Okafor so that we could trade Chandler. Or are you saying, Draft Deng regardless and still trade Chandler. Leaving us the brittle Antonio Davis as our sole PF(what happened to all of our PFs we used to have???)?

what happened to all of our depth...jeez. I don't remember having all of these holes in the roster going into last year.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

This is very interesting...

If any "fillers" have to be thrown in this deal, I'd make it Nachbar and/or the rights to Malick Badiane.


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## Wiggum (Jul 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Chandler is a 'winner'*



> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> "Listed" where, exactly?


On this "list" that some "insider" he knows was given by Jeff Van Gundy...

Look, GB, unless you have some specific knowledge to impart forgive me for not being terribly excited. I'm sure that kind of talk goes on every single day in today's NBA. And there's no guarantee Van Gundy really said that; I just highly doubt he'd let a list of people he wants out of his sight. In fact, there's no guarantee you were even told that.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> 
> 
> But we wouldn't have Deng if we drafted Okafor so that we could trade Chandler. Or are you saying, Draft Deng regardless and still trade Chandler. Leaving us the brittle Antonio Davis as our sole PF(what happened to all of our PFs we used to have???)?
> ...


Jerome Williams? Three second round picks? Mario Austin? Free agency? Further trades?

We're probably not going to get the 1 pick and thus will probably not get Okafor.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>futuristxen</b>!
> what happened to all of our depth...jeez. I don't remember having all of these holes in the roster going into last year.


What a difference a year makes.

I've already gone on record saying most of us will be disappointed in Deng, I'm standing by that until the wheels fall off.

All I see is a younger Eric Williams.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Jerome Williams? Three second round picks? Mario Austin? Free agency? Further trades?
> ...


We have 2 second round picks, how many of those stick with rosters?
Ya this draft is deep, maybe we could steal Varejao at 32 and he can do everything TC can do.

Austin?

Should have stayed with CSKA, he would have been playing last weekend...instead, bum.

FA?

Maybe, but we don't have a lot of cash and haven't seem interested in shelling out a lot for one guy...

Further trades?

Ya maybe and maybe something "decent' if you're willing to part with Hinrich, Curry, and/or future picks....


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## LoaKhoet (Aug 20, 2002)

Rockets probably want both Chandler and Hinrich for Francis. They want to at least fill up two holes not just one.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> What a difference a year makes.
> ...


It's interesting that our scout JohnPaxson thinks Deng has the biggest upside including Smith and Iguodala. Not everybody agrees with you. I watch these guys as much as possible, enjoy trying to scout, but I'm not gifted enough to know either way with a player like Deng. In my minds eye, I see him being about Jamal Mashburn good though, with strengths in different areas.


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## JohnPaxson (Apr 21, 2004)

> All I see is a younger Eric Williams.



Yikes! That might be the worst comparision I have ever seen on Deng. Listen if you want a 25+ point scorer then Deng is not your man. If you want a 18 PPG, 7 RBS, 5 AST player who is outstanding help defender as well as man to man defender and brings leadership and intangibles to your team then this is your guy. He will make an excellent #2 guy to a #1 post player. He feeds the ball exceptionally well and therefore him and a big man would make an excellent duo. He will be your glue guy. The guy that holds everything in place.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JohnPaxson</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes! That might be the worst comparision I have ever seen on Deng. Listen if you want a 25+ point scorer then Deng is not your man. If you want a 18 PPG, 7 RBS, 5 AST player who is outstanding help defender as well as man to man defender and brings leadership and intangibles to your team then this is your guy. He will make an excellent #2 guy to a #1 post player. He feeds the ball exceptionally well and therefore him and a big man would make an excellent duo. He will be your glue guy. The guy that holds everything in place.


Didn't mean to make this into a Deng thread guys, sorry. I don't know if we have the pieces (we will not part with Hinrich and Chandler for Francis - he's just not enough of a Pax guy).


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## LoaKhoet (Aug 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> Didn't mean to make this into a Deng thread guys, sorry. I don't know if we have the pieces (we will not part with Hinrich and Chandler for Francis - he's just not enough of a Pax guy).


I agree. I think Houston will need to include their pick or another player.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Thats an interesting bit of information-

I'll say that I'm not much of a fan of the way Francis has played the last couple of years. He's a guy who's less productive than his numbers indicate IMO.

Chandler... well, if he's healthy I think he'll be very good, I just don't think he'll be healthy  If we would get a guy like Francis, I'd consider it, except about the last dude we need is another SG/PG. Maybe if another team were in the mix?

But, it's nice to know someone likes Tyson at least


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JohnPaxson</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes! That might be the worst comparision I have ever seen on Deng. Listen if you want a 25+ point scorer then Deng is not your man. If you want a 18 PPG, 7 RBS, 5 AST player who is outstanding help defender as well as man to man defender and brings leadership and intangibles to your team then this is your guy. He will make an excellent #2 guy to a #1 post player. He feeds the ball exceptionally well and therefore him and a big man would make an excellent duo. He will be your glue guy. The guy that holds everything in place.


Before I comment any further let's try to nip this whole I'm a scout so I know all and you're an idiot tone you seem to give off.

Feel free to disagree, but I think Eric Williams is a GREAT comparison.

Williams is by no means a bad player, but he's no star, and I don't see Deng being much better than him in the league.

I'm still trying to see how Deng is on this other level from a Battier or a Eric Williams, what can he do that they can't?

Deng had a good freshman year at Duke, but the "GLUE" of that team was Duhon.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> I'm still trying to see how Deng is on this other level from a Battier or a Eric Williams, what can he do that they can't?


I've only answered that question for you, in my opionion of course, about three times. Deng can face up and take people off the dribble. He's not a Josh Smith level athlete, but he's a better athlete than either of those two.

By the way Arenas, there's no way in hell JohnPaxson the poster comes off more in-your-face than you do. Not that I don't like what you have to say, but look in the mirror, man.


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## unBULLievable (Dec 13, 2002)

That's what I'm talking about Mikedc.

Francis in Golden state would seem perfect.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> By the way Arenas, there's no way in hell JohnPaxson the poster comes off more in-your-face than you do. Not that I don't like what you have to say, but look in the mirror, man.


I don't have a problem with in your face, that's fine, but just because one person is a scout and another is a average fan doesn't make his evaluations law and anyone else's garbage...

I still don't think Deng-Eric Williams is a bad comparison...


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> I don't have a problem with in your face, that's fine, but just because one person is a scout and another is a average fan doesn't make his evaluations law and anyone else's garbage...
> ...


When did he say, "I'm a scout, so I'm right?" Inbetween the lines? I don't see it.

You speak with the same kind of bold statements, like "this is the way it is" as opposed to "this is my opinion." The only difference is you're not a scout.

I know how much ball you watch and I think you have a vision.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

DMD, no big deal, and no ill will towards JP....we can all have good discussions, let's leave it at that 

Check this out...



> Originally posted by <b>Starks</b>!
> Too bad you can't get Kirk Hinrich away from the Bulls. I'd love to see him in a Rockets jersey.
> 
> How serious is management considering trading Francis?


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## JohnPaxson (Apr 21, 2004)

> Before I comment any further let's try to nip this whole I'm a scout so I know all and you're an idiot tone you seem to give off.


I want to apolgize. I certainly did not mean to come across that way. You guys are passionate and I have a lot of respect for every one of you. Heck at heart I am one of you. Having said that I can see where at times during his Duke tenure Deng resembled a Eric Williams/Battier type. However having seen him outside of that Duke system several times, having seen him in private workouts, and having spoken to him I can say with much conviction that he is far and away ahead of both of those players. And that is no disrespect to those two. They are both sound basketball players. Deng is just on another level. Having just seen Duke games is only seeing a fraction of what he can do.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> DMD, no big deal, and no ill will towards JP....we can all have good discussions, let's leave it at that
> 
> Check this out...


Kirk and Chandler are total Van Gundy guys, and both would work so well with Yao as the centerpiece of the team. I just don't think Paxson would be too interested. The idea of a Crawford/Francis backcourt is intriguing, but I don't know if it's any better than Francis/Mobley backcourt, and they can't even get out of the first round with Yao (yes, they're in the West). I think Hinrich would be a good backcourt pairing with Francis if you can deal with the lack of size. Francis may be a better fit somewhere where he can again be a scoring point guard a la Chauncy Billups. I think Golden State could be a great fit.


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## JohnPaxson (Apr 21, 2004)

Maybe it is me but I am not intrigued by a Crawford/Francis backcourt. That is a nightmarish thought. Not interested. So no deal with Houston from me at least.


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## Sith (Oct 20, 2003)

hinrich+chandler for francis would make houston a dynasty in the future. i wouldnt do it if i were john paxson, maybe crawford +chandler for francis, but not hinrich


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

I'd do Hinrich for Francis straight up...

That would be a steal.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> I'd do Hinrich for Francis straight up...
> 
> That would be a steal.


Do you really wanna give Houston a PG who will actually feed the ball into Yao twice as much as Francis did, i mean do we really need to wake up the sleeping Dragon called Yao? I may sound like iam joking but Yao Ming with the right players around him can really make him tons better.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> 
> 
> Do you really wanna give Houston a PG who will actually feed the ball into Yao twice as much as Francis did, i mean do we really need to wake up the sleeping Dragon called Yao? I may sound like iam joking but Yao Ming with the right players around him can really make him tons better.


It's in the West so it's not like we're giving him to Cleveland or something...

The question is do YOU want to get better?


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> It's in the West so it's not like we're giving him to Cleveland or something...
> ...


I dont belive Francis makes us way better then we are, now if we where trading for someone like KG or Even AMare then theres something there.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> I dont belive Francis makes us way better then we are


Francis *by himself* doesn't make us close to being in the playoffs????

I disagree.

Now I will say Shaun Livingston could have been our PG last year and our record wouldn't have been any worse.

Read into that how you want.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Francis *by himself* doesn't make us close to being in the playoffs????
> ...


The sixers had Iverson and dint make the playoffs, I doubt Francis ALONE will get us into the playoffs, JC and KH are a good backcourt i think its the least of our problems, now i think Lamar Odom on our team is a different story also.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Skiles would limit Francis as a pg much like he is limited by Van Gundy in Houston. Francis will only be good for the Chicago Bulls as a shooting guard with our current administration.

Besides, we can't trade Hinrich for Francis anyhow without major filler.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> Besides, we can't trade Hinrich for Francis anyhow without major filler.


Personally I'd like to get Nachbar in the deal, I doubt we could steal the draft rights to Malick Badiane as well, that's wishful thinking on my part.

I do not think Hinrich AND Chandler would be needed to get Francis.

Also IF Francis were a Bull he'd play the 2 where he belongs, and move JC back to the 1 position.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Also IF Francis were a Bull he'd play the 2 where he belongs, and move JC back to the 1 position.



I would think you would agree, though, that our current administration would never make that trade, right?


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I would think you would agree, though, that our current administration would never make that trade, right?


No there's no way in hell they'd do it...

But we'd instantly be better.

Out of all the trades brought up on the board this one is one of the few that makes sense.

Houston "might" like Chandler, but why would they do that deal and leave a huge hole a PG for them?

Why do it for us?

We get a proven star, and he'd be much better at the 2 position, he'd be an all-star next year in the East.

JC could be our 1 and his game would flourish with Francis being the #1 option, Curry and JC would be the 2/3 options, this isn't even counting any FAs , draft picks etc.

Francis would make us at least +7.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

JC is not a true pg, If were gonna trade KH for Francis yet keep JC then i would do something like sending Francis to the clips for Brand.


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Darius Miles Davis</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> I would think you would agree, though, that our current administration would never make that trade, right?


our administration wouldn't get rid of Hinrich, at least if it was to pair up these two shooting PG/SGs in the same backcourt. And their administration probably wouldn't trade Francis to us unless Hinrich was part of the deal.

hypothetically I like Francis as our SG/PG more so than Crawford because he attacks attacks attacks and plays bigger than he is. Ain't gonna happen, though.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>thebizkit69u</b>!
> JC is not a true pg, If were gonna trade KH for Francis yet keep JC then i would do something like sending Francis to the clips for Brand.


That doesn't make any sense.

We still have Chandler, and possibly Okafor.

Let's not act like Francis is chopped liver, someone did SHARE that ROY award with Brand.


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## MikeDC (Jul 16, 2002)

Hinrich produced at a higher level than Francis this year.

Given that fact, and the fact that Hinrich is on a cheap contract for 3 more years and Francis is on a max contract, it would be robbery of us by the Rockets.

That's one move I'll support Pax 100% for not making.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

The whole true PG comment is annoying, how many true PGs are there in this league?

Hinrich isn't a true PG himself....


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## JohnPaxson (Apr 21, 2004)

I beg to differ. Kirk is a lead guard. Bar none. And a darn good one at that. He not only is the best one from the 2003 Draft but he is more than likely better than any of the lead guards in the 2004 Draft. Although Livingston 4-5 years from now might have something to say for that. Gordon is a guy I really like who if on the right team could be real good at the 1. Just make sure he has a 2 guard that can handle and pass as well so he can play off the ball some as well. But for now my money is on Kirk.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JohnPaxson</b>!
> I beg to differ. Kirk is a lead guard. Bar none. And a darn good one at that. He not only is the best one from the 2003 Draft but he is more than likely better than any of the lead guards in the 2004 Draft. Although Livingston 4-5 years from now might have something to say for that. Gordon is a guy I really like who if on the right team could be real good at the 1. Just make sure he has a 2 guard that can handle and pass as well so he can play off the ball some as well. But for now my money is on Kirk.


Ehh...maybe, if you don't count Wade as a PG, even though he did play it a lot this year, and T.J. Ford was having a great season for the Bucks before his injury.

He's another guy that can control the tempo of the game.

In regards to Livingston or Gordon, either one of those guys could have been our PG last season and our record wouldn't have been any worse.


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## JohnPaxson (Apr 21, 2004)

Yeah Wade is a 2 guard for me. I know he played it for Miami but he should be a SG. He will be extraordinary at that position. In fact I would dream of Hinrich and Wade together. Anyways I am not as high on Ford as some. I like Hinrich much better. More size, better shooter(although his numbers shooting were bad this year he is better than that) and is a better defender.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JohnPaxson</b>!
> Yeah Wade is a 2 guard for me. I know he played it for Miami but he should be a SG.


Maybe so, but he's probably played just as many minutes at the 1 as Hinrich has this year.

Anyway, Wade could be a 5, Hinrich isn't on his level....


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Maybe so, but he's probably played just as many minutes at the 1 as Hinrich has this year.
> ...


oh don't get carried away.

Wade is a better player than Kirk. Easily. No contest. I watch him play and want to cry that he's not one of our own. (JC and Wade? (or Kirk and Wade?) Wow. just wow. )

Kirk is at least equal if not better as a PG, for my money. Having seen the Heat/Hornets series and finally seeing Wade some more for the first time in a couple months, he can break down any defense at any time, but his first instinct is almost always to finish at the rim, not to set up other guys. That's fine for him because he's a spectacular finisher, but it makes him a SG, not PG. 

Just because he "played" there (Miami seems to do PG by committee with Odom, Butler and even EJ also initiating the sets, anyway) doesn't mean he's better than Hinrich at the position. 

I think the fairer thing to do would be to say Wade is a better PG than Hinrich would be a SG.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> 
> 
> oh don't get carried away.
> ...


I agree with you, but ultimately my comments are stemmed from my belief that Wade is a star right now.

We had...

Lebron, Melo...

Wade...



Then everyone else...

Hinrich is the best out of Ford, Barbosa, Ridnour, but they're all on the same level. All would have put similar #s if given the minutes and the role on our team that Kirk was given, I do believe that.

Anyway, it comes back to, Wade might be a 1 or 2 or a 2 playing 1 or whatever, but he's a star right now, Hinrich may be but he's not right now so that's why I say "he's not on his level".


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## ViciousFlogging (Sep 3, 2003)

Wade IS a star right now, I agree. This is getting too far OT, but the Heat as they're currently comprised are forced to basically put 2 SGs, 2 SFs and a PF on the floor for long stretches and Wade isn't quite doing everything he could be doing because of that. 

more OT - They'll eventually move Eddie Jones and I suspect Wade will take over at SG fulltime and score 23ppg or so, especially if his shooting keeps getting better. They'll just have a hard time getting anything worthwhile for Jones in the next couple years with that deal. I'm actually surprised at how much game Jones still has left. If his deal wasn't so long I'd be happy to have him here.


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## JohnPaxson (Apr 21, 2004)

I am very interested in what Miami does with that team. I have read several times that Mark Blount is almost a lock to go there this summer. So that gives them 2 SGs, 2 SFs, 1 PF, and 1 C. I am quite interested in what they will do with that lineup. If they sign Blount, does Grant start at PF and Odom at SF? If so what happens to Caron Butler? Do they stick with Wade at the 1 with Jones at the 2? They have a draft pick, do they use it on a PG?


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ViciousFlogging</b>!
> Wade IS a star right now, I agree. This is getting too far OT, but the Heat as they're currently comprised are forced to basically put 2 SGs, 2 SFs and a PF on the floor for long stretches and Wade isn't quite doing everything he could be doing because of that.
> 
> more OT - They'll eventually move Eddie Jones and I suspect Wade will take over at SG fulltime and score 23ppg or so, especially if his shooting keeps getting better. They'll just have a hard time getting anything worthwhile for Jones in the next couple years with that deal. I'm actually surprised at how much game Jones still has left. If his deal wasn't so long I'd be happy to have him here.


Haha ya we've gotten off topic...

Sorry to the thread.

I'm crying watching Wade play right now...


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> The whole true PG comment is annoying, how many true PGs are there in this league?
> 
> Hinrich isn't a true PG himself....


Explain to me how Kirk is not a true PG. I really would like to know by your standards what a true PG is. Wade is a star but hes not in the top 20 players of the league and if he is hes probably number 19, Wade is a great talent everyone knew that, i just dont see why you have to constantly bash Hinrich.


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## vince19 (Jan 24, 2004)

I would love to get Francis. We need someone who will drive it into the lane fearlessly and dunk on people. I would love to do a deal something like this:

Chandler/Erob/1st Rnd Pick

for

Francis/Nachbar

We can have a backcourt similar to New Orleans but better IMO. They get Chandler and they can draft Shaun Livingston or any point gaurd they want. We could ship Crawford off to New York and get back Kurt Thomas/Frank Williams and use part of the MLE or even all of it on a SF. . Thats atleast 10 more games we win just because we have someone who could take over in the fourth quarter.

Final Lineups:

PG - Hinrich / Frank Williams(Duhon?)
SG - Francis / Gill(Sato?)
SF - FA / Nachbar
PF - Thomas / JYD(Varejo?)sp
C - Curry / Davis

PG - Shaun Livinston? / FA?
SG - Mobely / FA?
SF - Jackson / Robinson
PF - Chandler / Taylor
C - Yao / Cato

The Rockets would have the best shot blocking and deepest frontcourt in the leauge(with the exception of detroit maybe), and they get real young and talented to and could be a top team in the future.

The Bulls would be set up to make the playoffs soon which is a start.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>vince19</b>!
> I would love to get Francis. We need someone who will drive it into the lane fearlessly and dunk on people. I would love to do a deal something like this:
> 
> Chandler/Erob/1st Rnd Pick
> ...


Let's just put it like this so there's no confusion...

Houston doesn't trade Francis without getting a PG in return...

Houston doesn't trade with us without getting Hinrich....


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## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> Houston "might" like Chandler,


Tiny correction...it's JVG. 

Not Houston at large. No idea what the GM thinks about Chandler...


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## 7thwatch (Jul 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Let's just put it like this so there's no confusion...
> ...


I think it would depend on how good of a pg they felt they could get with our pick. If they are high on Livingston or some other pg in the draft, they might jump at it. If they don't like this crop of pg's or don't want to go through the growing pains of developing one, than they might turn it down or possibly demand Hinrich instead.


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## unBULLievable (Dec 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> Houston doesn't trade with us without getting Hinrich....


:laugh: Man ..I love your attitude when dealing.


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

When you are talking about basketball with arenas, there are couple of DOs and DON'Ts;

DOs:
Bash management, Skile and Paxon at all cost.
Bash or devalue in any possible way Kirk as a PG.
Chant "JC is a Godsend."

DON"Ts:
DON't ever say a single bad thing about JC or Erob or Curry.
DON't ever say Kirk is better PG than JC.
DON't ever say you know whom is a true PG.
DON"t ever say to give some break for Paxon even if he is rookie GM and we put up with hellish 6 years with Kraus.
DON't ever disagee with Arenas himself.


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## Showtyme (Jun 24, 2002)

A few maxims:

1. Kirk Hinrich WAS and continues to BE a better pure point than anyone else in the rookie class. Hey, he led those guys in assists. Maybe he didn't "make our team better" a la Jason Kidd, but in terms of ball handling, passing vision, and executing plays (the fundamentals of PG position), Hinrich was the best in that class. Lebron, in my opinion, is going to make the shift back to the 1 and play like a young Penny, except 5 years earlier and with more sick scoring abilities. But if you want a guy in the mold of Kidd, GP, B. Davis, Bibby (if those guys aren't quintessential point guards in the league right now, you'll have to find me others who are), it's Hinrich more than anyone else.

2. I posted a Houston-Chicago trade about a week ago. 
http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91983

The bottom line is, our management DEFINITELY wouldn't do the trade. There's a zero percent chance of that happening, and while I'm not a big fan of Pax at the moment, you can't really blame him for that. Francis is definitely an incredible talent, but he has struggled in an offense where the center is the primary focal point. I personally think a Francis-Curry combo would be incredibly fun to watch and go kind of nuts, but it's something you dream of at Rucker, not at the United Center. 

3. Not to mention, does anyone remember the fact that we didn't DRAFT Francis to begin with, when he wanted SO badly to be here? Krause also went with that school of thought: pick the safer, more consistent player, even though the majority thought Francis was the best talent in the draft. Stevie came at us that year to score like 30 in his first game in Chicago, to kind of rub it in. We went on to a 17-win record and years of losing.

For some reason, Francis coming to town just has all the wrong signs painted on it. If it happens, we'll definitely be a more talented team, but we don't have a great history with having a lot of raw talent. In the end, that's how I see Steve Francis: still a little raw. 

He has the pure individual talent to be the absolute best point guard in the league, with no competition. He has more quickness, better handles, more athleticism, better shooting, more defense, and at least the same passing vision as Jason Kidd. He can rebound JUST as well as Kidd's exalted rebounding abilities. He's still young at 27. 

But he just doesn't put it together. We have enough of those kinds of guys; it's not sensible to trade our one guy that CAN put it together.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Showtyme</b>!
> A few maxims:
> 
> 1. Kirk Hinrich WAS and continues to BE a better pure point than anyone else in the rookie class. Hey, he led those guys in assists. Maybe he didn't "make our team better" a la Jason Kidd, but in terms of ball handling, passing vision, and executing plays (the fundamentals of PG position), Hinrich was the best in that class. Lebron, in my opinion, is going to make the shift back to the 1 and play like a young Penny, except 5 years earlier and with more sick scoring abilities. But if you want a guy in the mold of Kidd, GP, B. Davis, Bibby (if those guys aren't quintessential point guards in the league right now, you'll have to find me others who are), it's Hinrich more than anyone else.
> ...


Francis really needs a team of his own. The only problem I see with him in Houston is that the Rockets want to be a Ming focused team. If the Bulls traded for Francis, and they do not have the intention of making him the focus of the offense, then it would be a real waste.

Picking Brand over Francis may have devloved to just a few reasons. If you considered them equal talents, then you'd draft the big guy. Brand may have come off better (of the two) in interviews.

Oddly, if we picked Francis over Brand, I think we'd have been a much better team W/L-wise from the getgo, and we'd be looking at 40 win seasons at this point - at least 40 wins.

I disagree he's a PG - he just has a PG body. But in spite of his lack of size, he's VERY strong at going to the hoop and dunking, which goes well with his outside game.

I happen to like Hinrich plenty, but as the season wore on, more and more of the Bulls offense featured him dribbling the ball to death. In some respects (not losing the dribble prematurely) he's quite good, but in others (keeping the ball moving to others' hands), he's not that good, in spite of the assist numbers.


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

We already saw a team built around Steve Francis, before Houston drafted Yao Ming, and he led that team to the middle of the lottery. Teams led by inefficient point guards who dominate the ball, like Steve Francis and Stephon Marbury, will never get out of the first round, and unless they have great talent around them (or play in a terrible conference), they won't even make the playoffs.

Francis isn't just in a bad situation in Houston, he would be in a bad situation on almost any team.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> Francis isn't just in a bad situation in Houston, he would be in a bad situation on almost any team.


Ya, after all who wants an all-star?

Why is he even in the league?

I guess Indiana wouldn't take him, you guys have Tinsley, Ancient Johnson, Anderson and Jamison Brewer....

All of them could at least equal Francis's production....


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## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

There's more to basketball than how many points you score and whether you make the All-Star team. Basketball is about winning. As the title of this thread says, some players are winners and some players are losers.

Steve Francis is on one of the only two teams in the league with a legitimate center yet he still can't get Yao the ball. What a loser. He's been in the league for five years and he still doesn't get it, so odds are he never will. Houston's offense is one of the worst in the league and Steve Francis is to blame. When you're that inefficient of a player I don't care how many points you score. If he came to Indiana what makes you think it'd be any different. He wouldn't pass the ball to Jermaine when he won't pass it to Yao. He'd keep doing his freewheeling crap and suddenly we'd be the Houston Rockets East instead of a 61-game winner.

You can win a championship with mediocre point guards like Jamaal Tinsley or Derek Fisher if they know their role and are surrounded by great players. You can't win a championship with guys like Steve Francis or Stephon Marbury, these losers will fill up their stat sheets, but they are destined to lose everywhere they go. Keep them away from my team.


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## thebizkit69u (Feb 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>jsong</b>!
> When you are talking about basketball with arenas, there are couple of DOs and DON'Ts;
> 
> DOs:
> ...


:laugh: funny cause its true.


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## djsmokyc (Jan 23, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>GB</b>!
> Ok...so someone I know works...no....lets say _does business_...with the Houston Rockets organization. Knows people, hears things.
> 
> Here's an interesting bit:
> ...



Trade with Houston

I know "hindsight is 20/20" or whatever, but if JVG liked Jalen Rose and Tyson Chandler, maybe the Bulls could have made this trade to rid themselves of Rose instead of the Toronto trade.

Jalen Rose
Tyson Chandler

for

Steve Francis
Kelvin Cato

That would basically give us two combo guards in Francis and Crawford, so move Crawford for a SF. Caron Butler wasn't playing good at that time, so maybe swap

Jamal Crawford

for 

Caron Butler
Bimbo Coles


Bulls' new lineup


Hinrich/Coles/RMJ
Francis/Gill
Butler/L.Johnson/E-Rob/Pippen
Marshall/Fizer/Baxter
Curry/Cato/Blount


That lineup would have gotten more wins than the current one, I'd like to think.


Houston

Jalen Rose/Mark Jackson
Cuttino Mobley/Eric Piatkowski
Jim Jackson/Bostjan Nachbar
Tyson Chandler/Clarence Weatherspoon
Yao Ming/Maurice Taylor


Miami

Jamal Crawford/Rafer Alston
Dwyane Wade/JC
Eddie Jones/Rasual Butler
Lamar Odom
Brian Grant/Udonis Haslem



Once again, this probably never would have happened. Houston wouldn't have traded for an injured Tyson and probably don't actually want Jalen.


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## Justice (Nov 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> We already saw a team built around Steve Francis, before Houston drafted Yao Ming, and he led that team to the middle of the lottery.


It is so far from the truth. Stevie led his rockets to a 45 wins season in his second year (highest win total for a lottery team in NBA history). He was injured in his third year and houston went 1-22 without him in the lineup. In his fourth year, Houston againt won 43 games despite Rudy T's illness.

The problem with Francis now is that Rcokets are commited to Yao and he has to become a R. Allen/K. Smith. His game suffers tremendously because he is not good at jump-shooting. Look at his stats (18 ppg in rookie year, 20 ppg in year two, 22 ppg in year three, 21 ppg in year four......and.... 16.6 ppg this year). He was improving every year before Yao came to the town.

If Francis/Mobley can get 45 wins in the west, I agree with DaBullz that he would probably have brought us to 40 wins in the East and gone to playoff.


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## Justice (Nov 22, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> Steve Francis is on one of the only two teams in the league with a legitimate center yet he still can't get Yao the ball. What a loser. He's been in the league for five years and he still doesn't get it, so odds are he never will. Houston's offense is one of the worst in the league and Steve Francis is to blame. When you're that inefficient of a player I don't care how many points you score. If he came to Indiana what makes you think it'd be any different. He wouldn't pass the ball to Jermaine when he won't pass it to Yao. He'd keep doing his freewheeling crap and suddenly we'd be the Houston Rockets East instead of a 61-game winner.


First, Indiana pacer east are probably not better than Houston Rockets West.

Secondly, JVG brought the ugly offense to Rockets, not Francis.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>ArtestFan</b>!
> You can win a championship with mediocre point guards like Jamaal Tinsley or Derek Fisher if they know their role and are surrounded by great players. You can't win a championship with guys like Steve Francis or Stephon Marbury, these losers will fill up their stat sheets, but they are destined to lose everywhere they go. Keep them away from my team.


You guys would kill to have a Francis or Marbury on your team, don't act like if you had the chance to choose you'd stick with Tinsley...

I'm not buying that BS even if you gave me your own money to make the purchase...


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## jsong (Nov 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm not buying that BS even if you gave me your own money to make the purchase...


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