# Sterling Wants Artest



## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

WTF?????

Source: ESPN.Com

The Pacers, according to NBA front-office sources, would rather deal with the Lakers' co-tenants anyway. The Clippers, though, have resisted -- even though the prospect of importing Artest doesn't scare coach Mike Dunleavy one bit.

It's also believed that owner Donald Sterling would embrace the idea of adding Artest and all zaniness that comes with the big-name buzz, but Clips management remains unwilling to part with Corey Maggette. Chris Wilcox is the best player they're willing to include a deal for now.

You can argue that this isn't the time, given Clipperland's first tangible stability in forever, to be gambling on Artest. It's an argument I would echo. Yet it's also undeniably tantalizing to imagine Artest -- assuming you could actually count on him -- forming a beastly frontcourt partnership with Elton Brand.

Or Artest playing power forward, shifting Brand to center and running Shaun Livingston as a point forward alongside Sam Cassell and Cuttino Mobley.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Though Artest did cause all that trouble last year he is still a popular player, check out the all-star voting. You know Sterling likes popular players.


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## Aphasia (Nov 27, 2005)

I am all for Artest as long as the cost isn't Corey. And I feel everyone in the Clippers organization feels the same way. Corey and Artest would be great playing together, Artest and Cat wouldn't be a good fit. And yes, Cat has a better handle than Corey and what has it gotten him and the team this year? Cat and Artest would only continue this stagnant offensive production that has occured since Corey's injury. And yes, I know Artest averages only 2 points less a game than Corey but again it is the way they score and how Artest is a power/post player who has gotten better with his shot while Corey is an energy, speed and strength slasher who has gotten better with his shot. Together the two would be lethal, just as the way EB and Corey play well off one another so would Corey and Artest if Ron's mind is right. 

They have to find a way without involving Corey. If that means giving up your next three or four years of 1st rounders then so be it, the Show is a young team now anyway. If they can find a way to trade for Artest while not giving up the cornerstones of the franchise then they would become the second best team in the West. Even if they traded away almost all of their frontcourt depth, they can piece together backup bigs, just look how close the Suns got last year with nothing behind Amare. The Clippers have a better frontcourt with EB and Kaman than Phoenix had last year and Brand and Kaman play well against Timmy. 

If they can't get Artest without giving up Corey then so be it, at least hopefully they'll try everything they can to find a way. The idea of Shaun, Corey, Artest, Elton, Kaman and Cassell is just too incredible not to go all out.


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

Hey I'm a HUGE Artest fan, but not with our team, not now.

If Artest is unhappy in Indiana because he can't get enough playing time ... just WHAT is he expecting to get from us?

Dunleavey can't manage what we have now. You bring him in, give him ALL of the minutes HE wants and the other players who have worked to get us to this point become disgruntled and then what?

Another Kandi situation ... I'm unhappy so I'm going to mess this drive for the Playoffs up.

This is not feeling right to me. There's more to a team then just sticking pieces in that have looked GREAT under someone else's system.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Ive said all along and ill keep saying it. To me this deal makes sense to get him, even if it means shipping out maggs. Looks like the deal makes sense to the clippers too, just not to keen on giving away someone they have been touting as part of the cornerstone of the franchise. But AGAIN, I do not think there is a snowball chance in a hot wind that a deal will get done. Aside from the fact that clippers never do midseason trades, as expected they are reluctant to give up maggs. And indiana is getting good offers, so they wouldnt want a deal of wilcox, koroelev, or whatever else they could possibly offer except mayb elike a 1st round draft pick every other year for 6 years. 

People here (id say 90% are against artest coming) are mostly afraid of him leaving after a couple years, and or imploding while he is here. But many of these people are the same ones that say clippers should take a gamble every now and then, should overpay sometimes, in order to compete. Such as take a gamble on baron davis, throw big money to joe johnson, etc. I think this should qualify as a gamble, but one that isnt THAT bad. Artest instantly makes the clippers a title contender IMO becuase of his clutch play, offense, and defense. Who knows if he still bolts after 2 years if the clippers are winning ball games. Even if so, its 2 years of great ball for us, putting us even higher on other free agent wish lists. 

Now, why are us the minority say its ok even maggs for artest. Few reasons. Maggs is a good player, but has too many negatives for a player his calliber as regards ball handling, mental errors in crunch time, shot selection, etc. He also, after this year, will have missed an average of about 14-20 games each and every year since coming to the clippers. Are there many SG/SF's in the league that i would want to trade him for? No. I probably wouldnt trade him for ANYONE that isnt an all star, and there are even one or two ex all stars that i still wouldnt trade him for. But were talking about the defensive player of the year. Someone who is out of shape out of practice, and still averaging good numbers. Many other teams i think wouldnt be able to handle him. But we have a good coach as far as one who demands respect because of his track record, and who has dealt with personalities before. We have a veteran who is a leader in cassell. We have childhood friends on the team of artest in brand, and there are no hot heads on the clippers who would clash with artest IMO. 

Artest most likely will never be a clipper. But i think the clippers should think long and hard about getting him NOW, especially since maggs wont be back for 4 weeks.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Well I guess reading isn't fundamental...

The Clips have continued to say "we're not trading Mags", yet a deal involving Mags makes sense?

lol...

Anyway, if anyone cares to do some salary research, a Wilcox and Rebraca combination is about the only thing that works and that we would actually do. Is that a good enough package for Artest? 

I don't think so...


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## Aphasia (Nov 27, 2005)

You are all missing the point that not only Wilcox and Z would be moved but it is almost a certainty that Cat would be traded if Indiana would take him or a third or fourth team could be involved. Rarely do big trades happen between just two teams. Everyone on the bench save for Korolev and Livingston is moveable, Ross, Ewing, Z, Singleton, etc. T

The Show does not need draft picks for the next three or four years anyway, what position don't they have a young starter at or an obvious future starter. Livingston is the future at point. You have Corey/Korolev at the two. You have Corey/Korolev at the three and if they can somehow trade for Artest he is only 26 and added to the mix of 2/3 and sometimes 4. You have Elton at the four. And Kaman as you center of the present and future. 

Shaun is 20. Corey is 26. Artest is 26. Elton is 26. Kaman is 23. Korolev is 18. 

If that somehow becomes their present and future then you would only be drafting 7th men and lower on your roster. And if that is your squad you will beyond a doubt attract free agent bigs and role players who can shoot. 

And if they are truly serious about winning and about Artest then I'm sure the Pacers or a third or fourth team would take some cash back as well. And what other better offers are they getting? Haven't you seen in the last week the Clippers have become the most talked about team as the destination for Artest. 

The Mavs don't want him. Atlanta doesn't want him and would only get involved as a third team. The Lakers want him but don't want to give up LO or Bynum. The Knicks have nothing to offer. Rashard Lewis is playing better this year than is Ray Allen and Radmanovic has said he will not go to another team this year. The Kings said they don't want him and Peja is breaking down now anyway. 

I understand the thought is there's something out there better for Artest and everyone thought there was something better out there for Vince Carter and Baron Davis and many other examples of teams who traded players below perceived value. And whether it is the Clippers or not I believe we will all be a bit surprised by who actually gets dealt for Artest. If there was this phantom great deal out there why wouldn't the trigger have been pulled? Do you think they just don't want the noise of phones ringing while they are watching the Yule log burn?

None of us knows what will happen in the next week or so with Artest or the Clippers but it is fun to speculate and in the end I do believe we all want what is best for the Show. We just essentially differ on the value of Corey. And most of you know where I stand on that debate.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> The Clips have continued to say "we're not trading Mags", yet a deal involving Mags makes sense?


Um...yes. thats exactly what i said. A deal most likely will not happen, and one of the reasons why is because the clippers dont want to give up Maggs. That doesnt mean i think that it doesnt make sense. Just like you thought it still made sense to get baron davis when the clippers voiced their concern over his contract and health. A LOT of things make sense to us, that doesnt mean the clippers agree. 



> Anyway, if anyone cares to do some salary research, a Wilcox and Rebraca combination is about the only thing that works and that we would actually do. Is that a good enough package for Artest?


there are a few combinations. There are LOTS of combinations of mobley, lots of combos with maggs, wilcox rebraca would be iffy if the clippers werent getting harrison back... there are combos that would work even with korolev. There is no way the pacers take wilcox and an injured rebraca for artest. Not when theyre gettin offers of all star calliber players. 

Unless clipps offer maggs, deal wont happen...it seems obvious that the clippers dont want to trade maggs, thus why i say that its extremely unlikely anything gets done. Trading mobley at this point im not sure the clippers will want to do, since we will be where we started without a big 3 point threat and ball handler, UNLESS like the espn article said, dunleavvy wants to start brand at center, artest at PF, and livingston at SG.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

I guess we're ignoring that Walsh said he was not taking older players...


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

Havent seen that quote. But if you did, why were you suggesting rebraca? Rebraca is the oldest regular on the team other than cassell. Not sure if id call mobley old yet, someone who was in his twenties a couple months ago. 

Well, either way, i still liked my three way trade with the nets.  Too bad it wont happen.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Best two way trade for both teams would be: Artest + Pollard for Wilcox + Ross + Mobley. 

Some people would rather keep Ross, but if Livingston stays healthy and Artest doesn't get suspended, 1-4 will be defended nicely. We'll lose some ball-handling, but Cassell seems to be ok switching to SG. Gotta make some kinda sacrifice. Simply put, Brand & Maggette & Livingston are Untouchable, they're the foundation of the team.

Walsh/Bird get their scoring production, promising youth that makes long term sense, and Carlisle would love a player like Ross. They also basically lose nothing since Pollard never plays.

Dunleavy/Baylor get their big game player that can defend 3 positions, I honestly don't see him outscoring Maggette or Brand though. And a decent big man back-up who's plays hard and has an expiring contract.


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## Aphasia (Nov 27, 2005)

If Walsh were being offered All-Star caliber talent then why wouldn't he have pulled the trigger on a deal yet. I think it is both a bit of wishful thinking and a bit of gamesmanship by putting it out there in the media. 

If they were offered Harrington the deal would be done, if they were offered Peja the deal would be done, if they were offered Ricky Davis the deal would be done, if they were offered a combination of Troy Murphy or Pietrus + the deal would be done, if they were offered Odom the deal would be done, if they were offered Josh Howard the deal would be done, if they were offered Shane Battier + the deal would be done, if they were offered Lewis the deal would be done, if they were offered Okur the deal would be done, and if they were offered Corey Maggette the deal would definitely be done.

Those are just a few of the young All-Star caliber players who could be dealt and if any of them were offered would you say no if you were the Pacers? Something is rotten in Denmark methinks.

If anyone else would like to speculate on the names of these phantom All-Star caliber players feel free and then we'll see whenever a deal gets done who was the closest. 

And by the way the Pacers biggest need is another quality big man to take pressure off Jermaine. There aren't too many of those available and ever fewer seeing it's Artest in the deal. 

We all hate on Weezy sometimes but the man does have a world of athletic ability. He just doesn't fit into Dunleavy's style of play, he has not and will not get much playing time behind the best power forward in the League right now and one of the most intriguing, skillful and frustrating young Centers. 

Don't you think five years ago the Jermaine O'Neal situation was almost the same. I doubt Weezy will become O'Neal but in the right situation, getting the minutes and confidence I don't see any reason he couldn't in time develop into a real solid big man somewhere. And the team that does trade for him or sign him in the offseason will get him on the cheap. 

And if he does begin to live up to his potential he is worth trading for if I were a GM in need of a poor man's Amare. Who better to learn from than Jermaine O'Neal who traveled a very similar path five years ago. Weezy is still only 23. If he is ever given the time and gives the same effort he did at the beginning of last season then yes he is worth trading for and the Clippers should be able to get value back for him and nothing on the Rockets or the Nets is of value but a package involving Artest would definitely be.


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## NOODLESTYLE (Jan 20, 2005)

One Reason Why I would deal Maggette for Ron Artest:

Ron Artest, with the exception of last season, shows up for the playoffs. We're going to need someone besides Cassell to punish opposing teams. And what if the Clippers face up against a team like the Suns, Spurs, or Lakers who have slashing players on the Wing? Maggette's best D is half as good as Ron Artest. Ron will probaly like it here in L.A. too, that way he can talk to Dr. Dre who will tell him he has no career whatsoever in the music industry and should go back to playing basketball. Dr. Dre can promise Artest if he does well he might feature him in some videos for the next upcoming album that is due out in 06'. Still Brand, Artest, and Cassell really is a nasty trio.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

NOODLESTYLE said:


> One Reason Why I would deal Maggette for Ron Artest:
> 
> Ron Artest, with the exception of last season, shows up for the playoffs. We're going to need someone besides Cassell to punish opposing teams. And what if the Clippers face up against a team like the Suns, Spurs, or Lakers who have slashing players on the Wing? Maggette's best D is half as good as Ron Artest. Ron will probaly like it here in L.A. too, that way he can talk to Dr. Dre who will tell him he has no career whatsoever in the music industry and should go back to playing basketball. Dr. Dre can promise Artest if he does well he might feature him in some videos for the next upcoming album that is due out in 06'. Still Brand, Artest, and Cassell really is a nasty trio.


What the hell are you talking about?


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

think he was being sarcastic about the dr. dre part, but the rest of what he says makes sense. Artest has playoff experience unlike much of the clippers, plus his D would be needed as a starter, instead of having to put ross in for the D. Im guessing thats what hes saying.


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## Mr. Hobbes (Jul 1, 2005)

The Clippers are a good thing this year. Artest might possibly ruin the team chemistry.


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

Sterling might want Artest but the team doesn't want to get rid of Maggette so it makes it really hard to believe that the Pacers would actually trade for Wilcox, filler, 1st rounder for Artest. Supposedly there are better deals out there and I would really be surprised if all it took to get Artest ended up being the above trade.


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## joser (Nov 29, 2005)

seriously, i dont see how artest fit in the clip show


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## Weasel (Oct 18, 2003)

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/377481p-320700c.html 



> Some of the teams Walsh referred to include the Clippers, Timberwolves, Nuggets and Warriors. Even the Lakers are said to have interest. The Pacers feel they have enough players to man the point-guard spot. So they're looking to package backup Anthony Johnson in any deal. They're also well over the salary cap this year ($79 million) and next season ($69 million), so they'd also like to move some bad contracts when they deal Artest.


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## air_nitta (Sep 7, 2005)

Weasel said:


> http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/377481p-320700c.html


 The quote about bad contracts should be enough to put the clippers rumours to rest. One thing you can count on is that the clips will always have players who are value for money. In other words Austin Crochere will not be wearing a clippers uni.


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## swift88 (Jul 4, 2004)

I hate most Pacer's squat, but Artest by himself is another story and working for the Clips..We'd be a 2nd round playoff caliber team at least. I give up on CAT, ship him out. But Mags is our stud, please keep him!


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## ClipOre4Life (Oct 25, 2005)

You think Mobley is value for money? I'd trade Mobley for Croshere.


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## Aphasia (Nov 27, 2005)

This is the exact reason why Artest could be traded without giving up on Corey. The Indiana Pacers have Jermaine O'Neal signed to a 126 million dollar contract, that is a millstone around their necks. He is one of the better players in the League so they will live with that immovable contract. 

They have two other rather bad contracts: Austin Croshere for 7yrs. at 51 million which expires in 2007 and Scot Pollard for 6yrs. at 30 million which expires in 2006. 

The Pacers ideally want four things; they want to get younger, they want to get bigger up front, they want to move one of their bad contracts and they want Ron Artest off the team. 

They have no need for Point Guards. Danny Granger looks like their future at the SF position. Jermaine O'Neal is their franchise at either PF or C for the rest of his career. They desperately want a young PF/C who is big, athletic and can take pressure off O'Neal. They also need better outside shooting, preferably from the 2/3 position. They'd be more than willing to take draft picks along with the players.

Think what you will but Weezy is one of the most intriguing young (23 yrs. old) PF/C prospects in the League. They took a chance on an intriguing PF who was stuck on the bench of a Mike Dunleavy coached team. I highly doubt that Weezy is another JO but I think he'd be a great fit for them or for a team like Atlanta. 

If the Clippers can trade for Ron Artest and not give up Corey then they have to do everything to make that happen. Mike Dunleavy, Elgin Baylor and Donald Sterling know what that would mean for this franchise. 

When healthy they'd be the 2nd best team in the West and they'd match up well against anyone. They would instantly become the talk of the League, they would sell out the rest of their home games, if for no other reason than the Mike Tyson appeal of Ron Ron. They would have the best top 6 in the League. They have a great group of guys and a coach who plays to the strength of his players, not a system. 

If for these reasons Mike, Elgin and most importantly Sterling are willing for the next two years to go decently over the Cap, then this will become one of the best franchises for the next decade. Why? Because the next two years were going to be transition years anyway with money, roster decisions and roster positioning. 

The most important contract decisions in the next three years will be made when Chris Kaman becomes restricted in 2007 and Shaun Livingston becomes restricted in 2008. Sam Cassell within three years will be retired and likely will take a pay cut after this season if he is to stay on the squad. 

In this theoretic situation let's say they acquire Artest and Croshere. They will be over the Cap for the next two years BUT Croshere comes off the books right when Kaman becomes restricted. Artest becomes a Free Agent right when Livingston becomes restricted. Other than Cassell they have no difficult monetary decisions within those next two years, other than who will be your 8th man down. Trading 1st rounders will also save them some bank if they are able to find more guys like Q Ross and James Singleton. 

They will have to make the money work and it might involve a third or fourth team and would definitely involve Cat and Wilcox and perhaps Z plus picks and money either coming or going. But there is absolutely no reason going over the Cap for the next two years should keep them from acquiring Ron Artest without having to give up Corey. 

The money situation is set up perfectly for when Kaman and Livingston are due. Croshere is making much more money than his production deserves but he is averaging 8.3ppg and 6.6rpg while shooting high percentages in all categories. He would become what they wanted Walter to be but with more ability and much more money. They would then be able to cut Walter and Howard. 

I doubt this scenario will occur but isn't it worth it? If you want to become an elite franchise for the next decade this is a great opportunity. Yes, it will be a bit of a financial burden but not nearly as bad as the Mavericks and Knicks and the 10 other teams in the League who are stuck with horrible players and horrible contracts. The Clippers would have a great young team with expiring contracts when needed the most. 

And the beautiful thing about this scenario is for at least the next two years you would have two of the best contracts in the League and have both Corey and Ron. 

We all know this scenario is a bit of a dream and if realized how fragile a reality it would create. But I have always had blind faith in this team and in these players and I believe it can work. All of the risks in this scenario make sense and the positives far outweigh the negatives. All of it depends on the willingness of both teams but I do think a scenario like this is more possible than most would believe. 

Sorry for the long essay.


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## ClipOre4Life (Oct 25, 2005)

Ya I think acquiring Artest is imperative to the future success of this team.


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## Aphasia (Nov 27, 2005)

The reason I'm pushing the Artest pursuit is because the Clippers right now are in a bit of a grey area. Elton and Corey are entering the prime of their careers but after them things get murky. 

Sam is at the end of his career but still has another good year left in him. Cat is who Cat always has been and will always be. 

What makes me love the future of this team is what makes me the most concerned right now. Shaun has all the basketball talent in the world but he is only 20 and just beginning to realize what he needs to do to become great. The same goes for Kaman, he is one of the most skilled big men in the League and is only 23 years old. Right now he is incredibly inconsistent, displaying moments of great ability and moments of mediocrity. 

I have a great feeling about Yaroslav Korolev. He looks like a real player to me; fluid, athletic and aware. But he is an 18 year old rookie from Russia. Ewing is a rookie, Singleton is a rookie, Ross is in his second year, Z is toward the end of his career.

At the moment, when healthy, this is a very good basketball team. A playoff team that might be able to win a round. But the team is in flux. Other than Elton and Corey this is a very inconsistent team. 

Livingston, Kaman and Korolev have the talent to become great players but at the very least all three should become significant starters in their careers. They just aren't there yet and with their youth comes inconsistency and understandably so. It's just that right now Shaun and Chris are two of the most important players on this team and with them comes wins and losses. 

Same with Ewing, Singleton and Ross, they all have the ability to become very good and reliable bench players but they aren't there just yet. 

Whatever you or I may think about Ron Artest personally, he is a hell of a player who brings it every night and if he ever did become a Clipper and it was only for two or three years, those years would prove to be a crucial bridge for Livingston, Kaman and Korolev. Because three years from now Elton, Corey and Artest would still be in their primes, so the possibility for great things is there. 

As absurd as it may sound I believe trading for Ron Artest without giving up Corey would prove to be a great stabilizing factor for this roster, even if his personality is sometimes unreliable. Again, it most likely won't happen but it would be ideal from a basketball and future of the franchise standpoint.

God, I keep going on and on about this. It's because it is a fine diversion from family noise and circumstance on this day.


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## DaFranchise (Jun 29, 2005)

Im all for getting Artest if it doesnt involve Mags. Plain and simple.


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

I won't mind artest as long as we don't give up mags, since Artest and Brand were friends on the Bulls, and Corey and Brand were friends at Duke, and ARtest likes Basketball, and Corey Likes Basketball, and Sam Likes Basketball, and Livingston Likes basketball...

I don't know if Ewing likes Basketball though.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Everyone keeps writing these diatribes about how you gotta get Artest without giving up Corey, well duh, but do some salary research and see what really works...

I highly doubt the Pacers want anything to do with Mobley, its possible, but realistically we'd have to take a bad contract or 2 back in order to make that happen.

The most realistic package that seems to work and I'm sure the Clips wouldn't mind doing is Rebraca and Wilcox, is that enough?

Not in my opinion, but man I'd love to watch J.O. and Wilcox team up, I think that would be sick.


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## Aphasia (Nov 27, 2005)

I know my mentioning Corey in this scenario is obvious, repetitive and probably annoying but it is just nervous energy. Although I love what Mike has done since he got here it still is the Clippers, you know, and Corey is my favorite player on this team for reasons I've espoused on the second page of the Charlotte Bobcats game thread. 

The scenario I talked about is quite realistic but it is impossible to know if there is another team involved, who that would be and what the money, player and picks situation there would be. And if it isn't the Clippers they make the deal with the deal I believe will be similar to the one I laid out, those are their needs and wants so it all just depends on what they feel is the best offer moving forward. 

The reason I've been going on incessently about this is because this is a franchise altering move. When again healthy this year the Los Angeles Clippers would actually be a championship caliber team. Livingston/Cassell, Maggette, Artest, Brand, Kaman. That is a championship level team. And with that squad they would be on that level for years to come. 

So for me it is too amazing an idea not to keep thinking about and running my mouth about because I have gone through so many emotional highs and lows with this team over the years, to finally witness an actual championship caliber team is almost too good to even dream of.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

L.A. Clippers Trade Breakdown 
Outgoing 
Zeljko Rebraca
7-0 C from Serbia-Montenegro (Foreign)
4.6 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 0.5 apg in 13.9 minutes 
Chris Wilcox
6-10 PF from Maryland
4.0 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.3 apg in 13.3 minutes 
Quinton Ross
6-6 SG from Southern Methodist
5.6 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 1.5 apg in 26.7 minutes 
Incoming 
Ron Artest
6-7 SF from St. John's
19.4 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 2.2 apg in 37.8 minutes 
David Harrison
7-0 C from Colorado
2.6 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 0.1 apg in 8.8 minutes 
Change in team outlook: +7.8 ppg, -1.9 rpg, and 0.0 apg. 


Indiana Trade Breakdown 
Outgoing 
Ron Artest
6-7 SF from St. John's
19.4 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 2.2 apg in 37.8 minutes 
David Harrison
7-0 C from Colorado
2.6 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 0.1 apg in 8.8 minutes 
Incoming 
Zeljko Rebraca
7-0 C from Serbia-Montenegro (Foreign)
4.6 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 0.5 apg in 13.9 minutes 
Chris Wilcox
6-10 PF from Maryland
4.0 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.3 apg in 13.3 minutes 
Quinton Ross
6-6 SG from Southern Methodist
5.6 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 1.5 apg in 26.7 minutes 
Change in team outlook: -7.8 ppg, +1.9 rpg, and -0.0 apg. 


L.A. Clippers Trade Breakdown 
Outgoing 
Zeljko Rebraca
7-0 C from Serbia-Montenegro (Foreign)
4.6 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 0.5 apg in 13.9 minutes 
Chris Wilcox
6-10 PF from Maryland
4.0 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.3 apg in 13.3 minutes 
Daniel Ewing
6-3 PG from Duke
4.3 ppg, 1.5 rpg, 1.4 apg in 16.8 minutes 
Incoming 
David Harrison
7-0 C from Colorado
2.6 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 0.1 apg in 8.8 minutes 
Ron Artest
6-7 SF from St. John's
19.4 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 2.2 apg in 37.8 minutes 
Change in team outlook: +9.1 ppg, -0.1 rpg, and +0.1 apg. 


Indiana Trade Breakdown 
Outgoing 
David Harrison
7-0 C from Colorado
2.6 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 0.1 apg in 8.8 minutes 
Ron Artest
6-7 SF from St. John's
19.4 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 2.2 apg in 37.8 minutes 
Incoming 
Zeljko Rebraca
7-0 C from Serbia-Montenegro (Foreign)
4.6 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 0.5 apg in 13.9 minutes 
Chris Wilcox
6-10 PF from Maryland
4.0 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.3 apg in 13.3 minutes 
Daniel Ewing
6-3 PG from Duke
4.3 ppg, 1.5 rpg, 1.4 apg in 16.8 minutes 

and my favorite fantasy one:

L.A. Clippers Trade Breakdown 
Outgoing 
Corey Maggette
6-6 SG from Duke
21.7 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 2.5 apg in 34.1 minutes 
Chris Wilcox
6-10 PF from Maryland
4.0 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.3 apg in 13.3 minutes 
Quinton Ross
6-6 SG from Southern Methodist
5.6 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 1.5 apg in 26.7 minutes 
Incoming 
Ron Artest
6-7 SF from St. John's
19.4 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 2.2 apg in 37.8 minutes 
Danny Granger
6-8 SF from New Mexico
4.7 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.7 apg in 17.3 minutes 
David Harrison
7-0 C from Colorado
2.6 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 0.1 apg in 8.8 minutes 
Change in team outlook: -4.6 ppg, -1.5 rpg, and -1.3 apg. 


Indiana Trade Breakdown 
Outgoing 
Ron Artest
6-7 SF from St. John's
19.4 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 2.2 apg in 37.8 minutes 
Danny Granger
6-8 SF from New Mexico
4.7 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.7 apg in 17.3 minutes 
David Harrison
7-0 C from Colorado
2.6 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 0.1 apg in 8.8 minutes 
Incoming 
Clippers 1st rounder from New Jersey
Corey Maggette
6-6 SG from Duke
21.7 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 2.5 apg in 34.1 minutes 
Clifford Robinson
6-10 PF from Connecticut
4.7 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 1.3 apg in 23.1 minutes 
Antoine Wright
6-7 SF from Texas A&M
2.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, 0.0 apg in 2.0 minutes 
Change in team outlook: +1.7 ppg, -2.1 rpg, and +0.8 apg. 


New Jersey Trade Breakdown 
Outgoing 
Clippers 1st rounder
Clifford Robinson
6-10 PF from Connecticut
4.7 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 1.3 apg in 23.1 minutes 
Antoine Wright
6-7 SF from Texas A&M
2.0 ppg, 0.0 rpg, 0.0 apg in 2.0 minutes 
Incoming 
Chris Wilcox
6-10 PF from Maryland
4.0 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.3 apg in 13.3 minutes 
Quinton Ross
6-6 SG from Southern Methodist
5.6 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 1.5 apg in 26.7 minutes 
Change in team outlook: +2.9 ppg, +3.6 rpg, and +0.5 apg.


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## ClipOre4Life (Oct 25, 2005)

If we can pull the first one off that would be great but the second one is just a dream.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Clippers do not get better by trading any of their starters for Artest. Maggette for Artest will change the clippers, but not make them better. We'd be the Pistons of '03, where they had that same great defense, but not enough offense to reach the next level.

Actually, i've begun to notice, it seems like the only person interested in trading Maggette for Artest (or Pierce, or the hobo that lives underneath the Santa Monica Pier) is Yamaneko. What've you got against Maggette? i've heard the bad shot argument over and over, but he's improved every year, and has seemingly improved that part of his game as well (before he got hurt at least). He's got a very high FG%, FT% and defends better than before as well.


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## ClipOre4Life (Oct 25, 2005)

I wouldln't mind trading Maggz for Artest. Maggz will be out for a month, Artest will be here now. Artest is a better defender and slightly worse offensive player than Maggz and doesn't get injured near as often.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

ClipOre4Life said:


> I wouldln't mind trading Maggz for Artest. Maggz will be out for a month, Artest will be here now. Artest is a better defender and slightly worse offensive player than Maggz and doesn't get injured near as often.


Really? how many games did he miss last year?


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## Dynasty Raider (Nov 15, 2002)

ClipOre4Life said:


> I wouldln't mind trading Maggz for Artest. Maggz will be out for a month, Artest will be here now. Artest is a better defender and slightly worse offensive player than Maggz and doesn't get injured near as often.


You ASSUME that Artest, or any player for that matter, will just come in here and pick up where Corey left off without having a clue about Dunleavy's system or rotation style.

What if it takes Artest/new player a month to even come close to fitting in and in the meantime the team falls apart because he is TRYING to fit in.

The assumption of just inserting any player and continuing on is very dangerous. Remember Andre Miller? What about Kerry Kittles?

(If you had the guys from last year you wouldn't be panicking because those guys kept the beat going during injuries AND would already have a grasp of Dunleavy's system. Unfortunately, the injured starters did not get together as a team for any length of time last year. Don't forget, that was not a bad team last year --- we were just injury plagued ALL YEAR. And that possibility exists every year. But, I understand you all wanted a "NAME FA".) I have acceped the team we currently have and cannot deny the good things that have happened because of them, but I'm just not willing to say with 100% conviction that we could not have gotten to this spot with last year's team. Maybe Elton wouldn't be having such a high scoring year, but this record was certainly attainable.

At one point I was cool with bring Artest in for Wilcox and I forget who the other person was that the poster proposed, but after further thought I have done an about face for mainly the reasons I've ben venting about. 

I'm sure Artest wants to come to LA as well, but he won't be dedicated to ensuring the Clippers make the Finals --- his focus is on his rap business and mingling with the money people in the business.

Somebody in the Clipper organization better be alert; I'm just saying. If what we have going NOW is destroyed by bring in the wrong player --- trust me, heads WILL roll.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> Really? how many games did he miss last year?


He was talking about injuries, nothing else. Do you really think artest is going to go into the stands again?



> Clippers do not get better by trading any of their starters for Artest. Maggette for Artest will change the clippers, but not make them better. We'd be the Pistons of '03, where they had that same great defense, but not enough offense to reach the next level.


They get better if they would trade Maggette right now for artest because maggs is out a month, and who knows how long until hes 100%. Over the course of 4 years who would we be better off with, who knows, but no doubt were better this year. And If artest is averaging 19 points to corey's 22, i dont think thats a big drop off in offense. Heck were winning games with livingston or ross averaging 5-10 points at that position now. 



> Actually, i've begun to notice, it seems like the only person interested in trading Maggette for Artest (or Pierce, or the hobo that lives underneath the Santa Monica Pier) is Yamaneko. What've you got against Maggette? i've heard the bad shot argument over and over, but he's improved every year, and has seemingly improved that part of his game as well (before he got hurt at least). He's got a very high FG%, FT% and defends better than before as well.


There are two others in this tread alone that would do the artest maggs trade. Anyway, if you would read my posts, you would see I dont have something against maggs necessarily...i would pick him over most people in the league, but when you have a chance to get a star and only have to give him up, you do it IMO. Hes not a star. 



> You ASSUME that Artest, or any player for that matter, will just come in here and pick up where Corey left off without having a clue about Dunleavy's system or rotation style.
> 
> What if it takes Artest/new player a month to even come close to fitting in and in the meantime the team falls apart because he is TRYING to fit in.


Youre not getting it, ANYTHING is an improvement over an injured corey right now. You really dont think he can average even double (10 points) what ross averages as maggs replacement? Id say worst case scenario he gets 15 a game, and also draws defense away from the other players....its not like Q Ross attracts defense, opening up shots for teammates. 



> The assumption of just inserting any player and continuing on is very dangerous. Remember Andre Miller? What about Kerry Kittles?


Andre Miller was a PG. The one running the whole offense, a much more key position, that affects the whole team. Even still, look at Cassell...this insertion seems to have worked out, even at the PG. Kerry kittles was injured his entire time here, i dont think that was a matter of chemistry.



> (If you had the guys from last year you wouldn't be panicking because those guys kept the beat going during injuries AND would already have a grasp of Dunleavy's system.


If we had the guys from last year, we would have a smilar record as last year which was nothing to write home about. You want chalmers over ewing? Jaric over cassell? Simmons over mobley? 



> Somebody in the Clipper organization better be alert; I'm just saying. If what we have going NOW is destroyed by bring in the wrong player --- trust me, heads WILL roll.


Are you threatening management?


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

OC Register again said that theres little chance for the clippers to get artest since theyre not offering maggs, just in case some of you out there think were serious about some of these fantasy scenarios. 

But anyway, for those of you not interested in trading maggs for artest, what if the deal would include granger as well? Would that make it doable enough for you?


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## Free Arsenal (Nov 8, 2004)

Okay, if we get Granger as well, then yes it's doable... but Artest is not worth Losing Mags.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

ok fair enough. Just was wondering what some of the others thought would be "fair" in a deal involving artest and maggs.


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## THE'clip'SHOW (Sep 24, 2002)

yamaneko said:


> OC Register again said that theres little chance for the clippers to get artest since theyre not offering maggs, just in case some of you out there think were serious about some of these fantasy scenarios.
> 
> But anyway, for those of you not interested in trading maggs for artest, what if the deal would include granger as well? Would that make it doable enough for you?


If dunleavy really wanted Granger he would've just drafted him.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

no, he did want granger, wright, and green. But since those guys rejected promises/and/or were slated to go high, dunleavvy had to promise korolev to keep him in the draft.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> He was talking about injuries, nothing else. Do you really think artest is going to go into the stands again?


You're not seeing the point though, Artest may as well have been injured. How about this year? He's played 16 games, Corey has played 13. How is Artest more reliable than Maggette?

He may not be injured, but he sure isn't helping his team from home. Think about it, why is everyone in Indiana so pissed at Artest? Because he totally blindsided them with his trade request after they'd been so good & supportive to him. If he got traded to Clippers, decided he didn't like it, and demanded a trade, how is the team supposed to react? The same way the Pacers are.

Artest will get suspended again, multiple times, count on it. Lets say some idiot wants to test Artest and throws another beer on him, or spits on him or whatever. What do you honestly think will happen? Artest will ignore it and turn the other cheek? No he'll go nuts and get suspended again. 

A suspension (by team or league) is just the same as an injured player. And in Artest's case, he's getting more suspension/cancer-prone every year.


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## arenas809 (Feb 13, 2003)

Both of those trade proposals on page 2 are awful.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> OC Register again said that theres little chance for the clippers to get artest since theyre not offering maggs, just in case some of you out there think were serious about some of these fantasy scenarios.
> 
> But anyway, for those of you not interested in trading maggs for artest, what if the deal would include granger as well? Would that make it doable enough for you?


Granger would make the deal a more understandable, but Korolev is young and hasn't been given a chance to play until now. Granger seemed to be more NBA-ready & when given the opprotunity, he is taking great advantage of it, but you can never tell with rookies sometimes. Korolev looked pretty good in that last game, but that doesn't really mean anything either. You don't trade young, quality players (without a great reason) for rookies if you want to win now.

But the Pacers are too smart of an organization to toss away a draft day steal like Granger just to help unload Artest. They're looking to get rid of baggage like Artest & big contract guys (Croshere, Pollard, etc).

Just because theres a good player available, doesn't mean it makes sense for both teams. Chris Bosh may be available, but no Clipper-fan in their right mind would even bother considering the trade, because the situation isn't right. GMs should certainly explore the possibility, but if it's not necessary, don't shake up your team, especially if they're doing well.

The Clippers need a short-term band-aid. Korolev, Mobley, Singleton & Livingston will fill in, maybe a 10-day guy will be signed (don't hope for much more), but once Ross heals, the trade speculation should quiet down. And when Maggette heals, it'll drop dead silent for anyone besides a select few diehards.


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## Jermaniac Fan (Jul 27, 2003)

Artest + Pollard for Wilcox + Ross + Livinston

I'm huge Livingston fan and it would be so cool if this trade happened!


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## MicCheck12 (Aug 12, 2005)

no way linvingston is in that trade


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Passing up on Granger was a mistake, same with Wright, but not Green, no way.

There was a reason Dunleavy picked Korolev, and that's because Dunleavy has been following his game for a long time now. I read somewhere that Dunleavy had followed Korolev's game since Yaro was barely 14! IMO there is a reason Dunleavy was interested in Yaro so much and I'm willing to bet if it wasn't for Yaroslav's agent leaking the info saying a team promised him a pick from 10-14, then we in fact would have had him in the 2nd round, or he might have been undrafted. Don't blame Dun for taking Korolev, blame his agent for telling the press that he had a pick promised to him.


About a deal for Artest; I got this off of realgm:

Clippers make two deals, here's #1:

Clippers Trade: 
Cuttino Mobley
Walter McCarty
Minny 06 1st

Cavs Trade:
Drew Gooden
Luke Jackson 
2007 1st

Deal #2:
Clippers Trade:
Zeljko Rebraca
Chris Wilcox
Yaroslav Korolev
Both 2nd Round Picks 2006

Pacers Trade:
Ron Artest
David Harrison
Conditional 2007 1st

Clippers also waive Eisley and pick up Robinson/Spree/White and sign a big(or bring Sofo over)

Clippers New Line-Up:
C Kaman/Harrison/Napos;Dong
PF Brand/Gooden/*FA BIG{or Sofo}
SF Artest/Ross/*FA Wing/McCarty
SG Maggette/Luke Jackson
PG Cassell/Livingston/Ewing


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Qrich: i don't think either one of those trades are especially likely

#1 we'd be especially weak without Mobley, and i think the Cavs are pretty loaded at the SG position. I just don't understand why this would happen.

#2 it's a nice thought, but no one is going to get Artest with 2 total potential players and a possible injury liability.

Free agents: You've got the right idea here though, i'm pretty sure waiving Eisley is on the mind of practically everyone in the Clippers organization. I think after they get a more accurate timeframe for the return of both Maggette & Ross to full strength, it'll determine whethey they need a name-player like Spree/Robinson (preferably Spree, Robinson is very Antoine Walker-ish) or just a temporary fill-in like White. 

But definitely someone needs to be signed to at least a 10-day contract, Sam & Livingston are not at the point in their careers where they should be playing 40+ minutes, they need some relief before the guards end up wearing down & getting injured too.


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## Aphasia (Nov 27, 2005)

Will everyone stop confusing the Clippers promising Korolev they'd draft him at 12 with some imaginary rule that says you MUST draft a player if you promised you would. First of all it was just a rumor, we were all rather sure of its validity but NO ONE came out directly and said the Los Angeles Clippers will select Yaroslav Korolev with the 12th pick in the 2005 draft regardless of who else is available. It was alluded to only by the media and never concretely said by Dunleavy, Baylor, Korolev, his family or his agent. 

Dunleavy fell in love with his talent and if he lives up to his full potential then he will have been the most uniquely talented player in the 2005 draft. A 6 foot 9 shooting guard/point forward who is still growing with a nice outside shot and not only with the ability to drive and finish but the want to drive and dish and set up his teammates. If you can have a backcourt with a 6 foot 7 point guard and a 6 foot 9 point foward, both with skill and vision and the want to make others better then you can not pass up that opportunity. 

Let's be honest, Danny Granger has some talent and he will become a solid NBA player but he is not Pippen, if anyone in the 2005 NBA draft has the skill set to become a Pippen it is Yaroslav Korolev. But do also realize you are comparing a 22 year old to an 18 year old from Russia. Obviously it would be tremendous if Korolev were ready this year, with the playoffs in the balance but just stop and think for a minute about the future pairing of Livingston and Korolev, that is the ideal and why they took the chance. 

If they wanted to draft for the present they would have drafted Gordon or Harris last year instead of Shaun. I don't think any of you would question who is the more talented of those three. So let us not lament the choosing of Yaroslav over Wright, Graham, Granger or Green. 

And do not confuse a promise with the law.


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## qross1fan (Dec 28, 2004)

Aphasia said:


> Will everyone stop confusing the Clippers promising Korolev they'd draft him if available at 12 with some imaginary rule that says you MUST draft a player if you promised you would. First of all it was just a rumor, we were all rather sure of its validity but NO ONE came out directly and said the Los Angeles Clippers will select Yaroslav Korolev with the 12th pick in the 2005 draft regardless of who else is available or even if they were offered LeBron James for the pick. It was alluded to only by the media and never concretely said by Dunleavy, Baylor, Korolev, his family or his agent.
> 
> Dunleavy fell in love with his talent and he if he lives up to his full potential then he will have been the most uniquely talented player in the 2005 draft. A 6 foot 9 shooting guard/point forward who is still growing with a nice outside shot and not only with the ability to drive and finish but the want to drive and dish and set up his teammates. If you can have a backcourt with a 6 foot 7 point guard and a 6 foot 9 point foward, both with skill and vision and the want to make others better then you can not pass up that opportunity.
> 
> ...



Repped, fully agree with you.

Another thing about Korolev, I read somewhere that he supposably grew to 6'11" and if that's true, then I'd love Livingston and Korolev, two big(as in tall) guys who have nice court vision, and doing this, would open up shots for everyone else since Livingston and Korolev would be posting everyone up at any given moment. Only thing left, is hoping Clips keep both Livingston and Korolev come contract time. 

If we had in fact drafted Granger and let's say Nets took Korolev and Korolev ended up being an all-star, how pissed would people have been here? Saying the exact opposite of what they are right now. There is a reason Dunleavy has followed Korolev for 3+ years, there's a reason he took Korolev, theres a reason Dunleavy fought hard to get Korolev to come over. He knows something that none of us do.


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## Aphasia (Nov 27, 2005)

A footnote to my post. Do you realize how many teams tell players "We love your game, if you are there at ___ you'll hear your name." Well they probably don't rhyme their promise but I'm rather sure almost every single team in every single sport has at one time or another said that to a player, regardless of the round drafted. 

So if you were bound by your promise there would be no draft day trades. And if a player ever tried to bring action against a team claiming they guaranteed to draft him, on what legal grounds would his protest be heard, what precedent has been set? There are always players who b*tch and moan about not being drafted by a team and they claim a promise had been made and yet nothing ever comes of it. Those players go on hating that franchise and then they promise to prove to everyone just how great they are and blah blah blah. 

And by the way, Yaroslav isn't skinny, he is thin but he is basketball thin. When I watch him play I don't see someone fragile, just someone who's still growing. 

I don't know where you read he grew to 6'11'' but that isn't true. I read somewhere that his doctor said he could end up that height by the time his bones fuse. And also Mike said at the same age his son ended up growing another three to four inches. So I think that's where you gathered that from.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Aphasia said:


> And by the way, Yaroslav isn't skinny, he is thin but he is basketball thin. When I watch him play I don't see someone fragile, just someone who's still growing.


Yep, anyone who has any confusion about the difference between skinny/fragile & "basketball thin"... just take a look at Livingston in his first game.... unfortunately.

But yeah, gotta agree with your big long post up above, Granger is gonna be a good player, all-star or not is yet to be seen, but i'm pretty sure he wouldn't have gone in the 1st round if he was eligible at age 18.

I personally had a problem with drafting Korolev, not because of who else was available, but i just didn't agree with drafting a 2 to 4-year project. But i don't buy into the "promise" theory either, Dunleavy isn't an idiot, he drafted Korolev because he thought it was the better idea for his team.... whether or not it works out is too early to be known.

But if Dunleavy was psychic and knew Maggette, Rebraca, Ross & Livingston would be injured at the same time, of course he would've drafted Granger or some other NBA player.... Vision in retrospect is always 20/20.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> Will everyone stop confusing the Clippers promising Korolev they'd draft him at 12 with some imaginary rule that says you MUST draft a player if you promised you would. First of all it was just a rumor, we were all rather sure of its validity but NO ONE came out directly and said the Los Angeles Clippers will select Yaroslav Korolev with the 12th pick in the 2005 draft regardless of who else is available. It was alluded to only by the media and never concretely said by Dunleavy, Baylor, Korolev, his family or his agent.


Clippers gave him a promise. I confirmed it with various sources here, in Russia, and indirectly with the agency. it was also not a "soft" promise, meaning that the clippers said that if he was there and x, x, x players werent they would take him. (for example, ewing was given a "soft" promise by the team, saying that if a couple of the ones they wanted like stadamire wasnt there and he was, they would take him). 

Very rarely does ANYONE ever publically announce a promise. Beforehand, its obvious as it may cause other teams to try to get something out of you...afterwards who knows why. But it just doesnt happen that often. The reason korolev was invited to the green room was mostly because of the clippers promise. In the nba, its almost taboo that you cant go against a draft promise. If a team did (its never happened before that i know of), the team is black listed by agents from then on out. A promise is like the law. Once you give it, you cant go back on it. 

Now, why did they promise korolev? Its because 99% of everyone figured that the other players would not be available (they had offered wriight a promise as well). Korolev had threatened to go back to russia for who knows how long if he wasnt given the guarantee. So what were the clippers to do? They invested a lot in recruiting him, they needed a SG/SF, and the top three were probably all going to be taken. In retrospect, it might not have been that great, but they did what they thought they had to do. 

Did I want granger? Absolutely. I would have liked granger. However, im not completely dismayed by korolev. I would have picked korolev over green or wright (unless there was a chance to get one of those, trade down,and still get korolev). No one will say that granger now is NOT better than korolev. We all know he is. But i doubt anyone will say that Granger at Korolev's age was anywhere near the player korolev is. Heck, even gerald green is almost 2 years older than korolev. Same thing..korolev at his age is way beyond green, granger, wright, the others at the same age. The clippers thought they were going to get two solid guys in free agency at the 2/3. Either allen and someone else, mobley and rahim, mobley and wells, etc. Thus as they said, they figured whomever they get in the draft doesnt need to play, and they can develop. So they were in a position with/without the promise to draft for the most upside. 



> So if you were bound by your promise there would be no draft day trades. And if a player ever tried to bring action against a team claiming they guaranteed to draft him, on what legal grounds would his protest be heard, what precedent has been set? There are always players who b*tch and moan about not being drafted by a team and they claim a promise had been made and yet nothing ever comes of it. Those players go on hating that franchise and then they promise to prove to everyone just how great they are and blah blah blah.


No, i really dont think a full promise has ever been broken. it would be free agency suicide for a team to do that. There are teams who might lead players on, and then change their mind at th elast second. We had that here in los angeles when everyone thought the clippers were going to pick bibby....they didnt promise him, but told him they probably were going to get him. Then they changed their mind to olowokandi. They still had the decency to tell bibbys agent what was going to happen beforehand though. There is no legal thing on the promises...no body could do anything if a team did break a hard promise. But again, in a sports world ruled by agents, youd have a lot of trouble if you went back on a promise. 

Remember, theres a difference between a hard promise and a soft promise.


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## Aphasia (Nov 27, 2005)

I think you are being naive.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

how so


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

yamaneko said:


> how so


It's a promise, fine.... But the NBA is a multi-billion dollar business. The Clippers franchise is easily worth a few hundred million dollars. 

It's good to keep up your image and all in the league, but honestly, there is way too much money on the line to let a promise run the future of the franchise. 

Think about the 3 teams that passed up Michael Jordan, looking back, all the teams who chose guys before him would easily change their minds, promises be damned. The teams that passed him up missed out on *billions* of dollars because of this. Whether we as fans want to admit it or not, this is a business first and foremost, you don't let a promise you made to one guy dictate the future of your investment.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

I disagree. First of all youre talking retrospect. No one would have known jordan was as good as he was, bowie as bad as he was. No one would have known granger, green, wright available at the clipper pick. We also do not know that the promise is going to "cost" the clippers millions, billions, thousands of dollars. Its not like they promised Boniface Ndong to take with the number 1 draft pick. I think the clippers promised becaused as i mentioned 1. they figured like everyone else that their other three wouldnt be available. 2. even worst case scenario, the kid probably had most upside than anyone else in the draft, so its not like it was a 100% reach to take him there. 

Now, if the clippers did not promise him, he would be back to russia, and then the clippers would have had to spend a high draft pick on a joey grahm or rashad mccants, something they didnt feel comfortable doing. breaking the promise would have been terrible for the clippers and in the long run MIGHT have cost them millions of dollars. Such as if future free agents spurned the clippers beacuse of it. Maybe a future potential draft pick says he will refuse to play for them if drafted by them because of this. It might seem far fetched to you, but stranger things have happened in this day and age where agents have so much power. 

The clippers made the right decision at the time. in retrospect it was a bad move. But its not like granger and green were NOT in the top ten on any of the 1000 mock drafts out there.


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## Aphasia (Nov 27, 2005)

I don't want to argue about behind the scenes maneuvering in regard to the draft and free agency. Especially now that there are good arguments to be had about where the Show is right now and what they should do to fix the ship. 

I think you are being naive about the value of promises, what really goes on behind the scenes and agents being a factor in the decisions of players they represent. 

I wrote a much longer response with detailed reasoning which I just deleted because I see no reason to keep this going. Either way I think they made the right decision with Yaroslav.


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## ElMarroAfamado (Nov 1, 2005)

right now...if you guys saw todays game like i did.... The Clippers are looking like the teams of old

no direction, no leadership, no shots going in, bad D, HORRIBLE HORRIBLE 

and if we dont straighten up quick, or ACQUIRE ANYBODY who can shoot or something


ANYONE ANYONE ANYONE

even give Korolev more PT, he seems to be a good player....but right now im willing to give 

up big players (except Elton) for Ron Artest....ANYTHING 

if we dont snap out of it....you can say goodbye to our season, and wait "till next year"

like its been for the last 10 or whatever years it been  

another ****ing "rebuilding" year ahha damnit i want to make the playoffs ****


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

Yamaneko, you completed ignored my last post and changed the subject. But let's try it one last time with a hypothetical:

Let's say this was the draft of '04, we made a 100% public promise that we would take Chris Kaman at #6. Then by some ridiculous stroke of fate, Lebron James gets shafted by the Cavs, then the Pistons, and manages to fall down to #6. People are shocked, the Clippers organization is shocked that he's fallen into their lap.

As Donald Sterling, a businessman, do you break your promise you made to some prospect you've been scouting & do what's right for your team's future & the potential billions (yes, billions) of dollars you'll make by drafting this guy? Or do you worry about Kaman's agent & whether or not you may piss off a few free agents?

If you honestly think the latter is what happens, then all is lost for you.


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## Starbury03 (Aug 12, 2003)

I wish this guy would be traded already what the hell is taking so long. Then you get all these rumours and speculation. Just trade his ***.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> Let's say this was the draft of '04, we made a 100% public promise that we would take Chris Kaman at #6. Then by some ridiculous stroke of fate, Lebron James gets shafted by the Cavs, then the Pistons, and manages to fall down to #6. People are shocked, the Clippers organization is shocked that he's fallen into their lap.


Thats not a reasonable hypothetical, because its a complete impossibility. Zero chance at all. Thats an paradox. There was no chance lebron fell at all. Granger, as little chance as he had to fall was 1000X more likely than james not to go number 1, let alone 2-4. The ONLY chance that james had to fall is if he wasnt nearly as good as he was, thus making it not a billion dollar decision. 

If there is a player available who literally before hand we know wlil make a million dollar difference, hes going to be taking right away. Theres no chance of drop. if he drops then he must not be a clear cut superstar. Such as with michael jordan. Do you think everyone knew he would be the best of all time? No, otherwise he would have been taken first. Now with lebron, this guy was bar non the cream of the crop of the draft. No chance for him to drop. 
Same with granger. Like i said, its not like hes a shaq or a lebron. Its not like the clippers had the number 2 pick in a draft where it wasnt quite clear where the number 1 guy was going. Your illustration has no bearing here. 
Teams make hard promises when they think that their best case scenario isnt all that great. Here in this situation, the clippers best case scenario was not that they were going to get Bogut. It wasnt going to be chris paul, not marvin williams. Those guys were locks for top 3-5. Their best case scenario was having granger, etc. fall to them...something that while possible, seemed EXTREMELY unlikely. Thus they made a move to give a hard promise. A soft promise wouldnt have kept korolev in the draft.

Anyway, players with superstar potential usually go number 1. If there are more than one such as in 2004, then its all signed and delivered long before the draft, no chance of dropping...everyone knew about 1-2-3 well before hand. A promise in the 5-15 area can never be knowingly something that can screw you "out of billions." Because if the guy is so hyped, then he would be gone number one.


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## leidout (Jul 13, 2005)

So you still won't answer the question of whether or not a team should/shouldn't break a promise if it made more business $ense?

You should run for politics, you managed to type all that without answering the question at all.


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## The_Franchise (Mar 30, 2003)

leidout said:


> Think about the 3 teams that passed up Michael Jordan, looking back, all the teams who chose guys before him would easily change their minds, promises be damned. The teams that passed him up missed out on *billions* of dollars because of this. Whether we as fans want to admit it or not, this is a business first and foremost, you don't let a promise you made to one guy dictate the future of your investment.



2 teams passed on Michael Jordan, and the only team regretting it was Portland. And they had Clyde Drexler at the time, so Jordan wasn't a necessity. Houston picked a better player, did Jordan win anything with 2 other HOF's on his team and a HOF coach? No. Hakeem did so much with so little, and become an icon for a town that had become accustomed to losing.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> So you still won't answer the question of whether or not a team should/shouldn't break a promise if it made more business $ense?
> 
> You should run for politics, you managed to type all that without answering the question at all.


Youre not getting it, i have answered the question many times. Youre now changing it a little. You were giving examples of multi million dollar business decisions, even billion dollar decisions. Now at least youre changing it to a more generic "business sense." The answer is no, you dont break your promise. The reason being is that There arent any promises made that before hand you know could cost you big money. This clipper situation probably is the worst promise we have seen in recent years, and still when you look at it, its not THAT bad at the time, nor even now. But, the ramifications of if you break a promise COULD end up costing you a LOT more money as far as "business sense" goes, with stigma in the media, fan perception, agents making/not making future moves with your organization because of it, etc.


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## og15 (Dec 18, 2005)

One reason I don't want Artest is that he clearly stated that no matter where he goes, when his contract is up, he will look to sign with New York. Artest is the kind of guy who's logic is not the same as other players, even if the team is winning etc, it's about what he wants. Indiana was winning and he was complaining, and it's not like he's going to get more shots here than he was in Indy.


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

YEs, but for 2 years we will have a level of team that we never have had in the past...then at that time we will have his expiring contract to play with. Thats why i dont mind about the 2 year thing. At least we would be contenders for two years. 

As far as his head, not many people can figure out where he is, or would be. BUt at least here he has a long time friend, a coach that demands respect, and a team without a superstar (brand is getting there though), I think he would be a better fit here than in indiana.


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