# So, who do you want to win the championship?



## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

You know, once the Rockets get eliminated.

Don't know about you guys, but I usually want a Western Conference team to win. Problem is that it's so hard to like some of these sides. The Suns have egomaniacs Shaq and Amare. The Spurs have Duncan, who will become very overrated if they win. The Lakers have Kobe and one of the biggest floppers in the league, Gasol. And we all hate the Jazz.

We used to hate the Mavs, but they're more likeable now that they are the underdogs. But it would be painful to watch Mark Cuban win a title. The Nuggets are fun to watch but they're too full of borderline headcases to genuinely root for them.

That leaves the Hornets. They don't have any bad guys, they tend to be overlooked, and it would be good to see that city win it. And Chris Paul is awesome.


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

Chris Paul is my fave player. So Hornets if we are out.

Not ready to throw the season away yet though.


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## kisstherim (Jul 15, 2004)

Pistons. As for Hornets, it would be painful to see them win a title with Bonzi who used to in our team.


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## Cornholio (Feb 13, 2005)

If not us, the Celtics.


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## CbobbyB (Feb 16, 2006)

GINOBILI!!!!...the Spurs of course (my "other" team)..if not them, then i'll be okay with the Lakers...but i DON'T want Boston to win..hell no.


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## Cornholio (Feb 13, 2005)

CbobbyB said:


> GINOBILI!!!!...the Spurs of course (my "other" team)..if not them, then i'll be okay with the Lakers...but i DON'T want Boston to win..hell no.


HA! I'm the complete opposite. I'll be rooting against the Spurs the entire playoffs. **** the Spurs!!!!





...and **** Ginobili too!!!


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## CrackerJack (Jul 2, 2005)

76ers please


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## Krimzon (Feb 26, 2007)

I would love to see the Celtics win the championship.


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## lingi1206 (Jun 2, 2006)

Lakers


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

KG or CP3


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## jdiggidy (Jun 21, 2003)

Gotta go with the Celtics since you have already eliminated the rockets.

Come on KG, Jesus Shuttlesworth, Paul Pierce, and Sam "I AM"!


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Spurs. They are the only western team I like. As odd as that is, its true though. I hate the Jazz for obvious reasons. I am sick and tired of the Suns/Shaq. The Lakers are just annoying because every year they are shoved down our throat. And I think the Hornets are a bunch of punks really.

I wouldn't mind Boston, only because KG deserves a ring.


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## hi im new (Jul 4, 2005)

OneBadLT123 said:


> Spurs. They are the only western team I don't like. As odd as that is, its true though. I hate the Jazz for obvious reasons. I am sick and tired of the Suns/Shaq. The Lakers are just annoying because every year they are shoved down our throat. And I think the Hornets are a bunch of punks really.
> 
> I wouldn't mind Boston, only because KG deserves a ring.


well said, but i dont get the hornets part 

its weird how the media stopped talking about the celtics and went on talking about the lakers more and more


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## gi0rdun (May 31, 2007)

The Suns or Celtics.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

Toronto Raptors!!!

But realistically, definitely CP3 and the Hornets. I actually wouldn't mind seeing the Lakers win it either.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

If the lakers and the celtics meet in the finals, i will have to stop watching basketball and espn because i might puke.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Pimped Out said:


> If the Lakers and the Celtics meet in the finals, i will have to stop watching basketball and espn because i might puke.


I can see it now. 24/7 live coverage from Kobe's front lawn. The MVP being awarded to both players to boost ratings even higher. Live coverage from even the road teams arena. Lovable stories on ABC half time about how KG had it so hard in MN, or how Kobe and Shaq split, and how Kobe loves America. 

Then of course, you have the lovable NBA cares commercials, and ***** Cat Dolls time out music. maybe this time they may have Hannah Montana?


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

OneBadLT123 said:


> I can see it now. 24/7 live coverage from Kobe's front lawn. The MVP being awarded to both players to boost ratings even higher. Live coverage from even the road teams arena. Lovable stories on ABC half time about how KG had it so hard in MN, or how Kobe and Shaq split, and how Kobe loves America.
> 
> Then of course, you have the lovable NBA cares commercials, and ***** Cat Dolls time out music. maybe this time they may have Hannah Montana?


Don't forget the media's messiah like worship of KG and Kobe for saving the NBA by bringing the Celtics/Lakers back the finals and that no other teams could be close to as interesting as those two are.


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## hi im new (Jul 4, 2005)

Lol


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

Pimped Out said:


> Don't forget the media's messiah like worship of KG and Kobe for saving the NBA by bringing the Celtics/Lakers back the finals and that no other teams could be close to as interesting as those two are.


Agreed. No one under the age of 30 even clearly remembers the Lakers and Celtics being great at the same time. And most people over that age probably don't even care any more. I mean, it's been 20 years. How does the number of titles won by those franchises decades ago make these two teams more interesting or important than any other?


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

yah a Lakers/Celts finals would be waaay played out, but would you rather see Spurs/Pistons again?? From what I'm seeing from the East so far any team other than Boston going into the finals will get creamed by whoever comes out in the West. 

The remaining Western Conference series should be intriguing though. Its a pity we won't see Lakers/Suns, that would've been the best match-up to watch.


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## Pimped Out (May 4, 2005)

Yao Mania said:


> yah a Lakers/Celts finals would be waaay played out, but would you rather see Spurs/Pistons again?? From what I'm seeing from the East so far any team other than Boston going into the finals will get creamed by whoever comes out in the West.
> 
> The remaining Western Conference series should be intriguing though. Its a pity we won't see Lakers/Suns, that would've been the best match-up to watch.


I think Celtics-Hornets or Celtics-Spurs would be good.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

well, my first choice to win the championship is also the first team to be eliminated from the playoffs... and who would've though the Hawks would tie the series? wow


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## Cornholio (Feb 13, 2005)

:yay::yay: *Spurs* and Pistons eliminated!!


I wish I could see the Finals.


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## Dean the Master (Feb 19, 2006)

Lakers. I hope they can keep the championship in the West.


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

GO Lakers


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

After seeing how much Kobe has already started to be overrated, I'm going for the Celtics. The Lakers will have a great shot every year for the next half decade anyway. But for the Celtics, this is probably it.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

I don't see how Kobe's overrated though, he really is that damn good. Over-talked about, yes, but not overrated. 

Can't wait to see Kobe v.s. Allen/Pierce.


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## jdiggidy (Jun 21, 2003)

You know, I have to say that I am starting to like and respect Kobe alot more now than I have in the past. I'm just afraid that if LA wins that we might start seeing the old Kobe again. I also don't want LA to win because I am still pissed that the NBA allowed that trade for Gasol to happen.

I want to see KG get his ring. I kinda see the finals playing out where Rondo doesn't have such a good series and Sam Cassell comes in and helps lead Boston to the title. (Flash back to Sam's Houston title days.)


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

Yao Mania said:


> I don't see how Kobe's overrated though, he really is that damn good. Over-talked about, yes, but not overrated.


He's widely regarded as the best player in the league (he's really no better than LeBron, offering marginally better scoring, but having no other edges and falling behind in passing and rebounding).

He's considered by many to be one of the 2-5 best players of the past 20 years (Jordan, Olajuwon, Magic, Shaq, Robinson, Duncan, Malone, Ewing and Garnett are all better, with cases for Barkley, LeBron, Pippen and Drexler not unreasonable).

So, yeah, a great player having an amazing playoffs, but he is overrated. IMNSHO.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

Hakeem said:


> He's widely regarded as the best player in the league (he's really no better than LeBron, offering marginally better scoring, but having no other edges and falling behind in passing and rebounding).
> 
> He's considered by many to be one of the 2-5 best players of the past 20 years (Jordan, Olajuwon, Magic, Shaq, Robinson, Duncan, Malone, Ewing and Garnett are all better, with cases for Barkley, LeBron, Pippen and Drexler not unreasonable).
> 
> So, yeah, a great player having an amazing playoffs, but he is overrated. IMNSHO.


I'd put Kobe above Robinson and possibly Malone, and he still has a good few years left in him. Players also gets measured for winning championships, so unless KG wins it this year he and Ewing will always be considered a tier below the others.

Anyway that's another reason why I'm looking forward to the finals. Is Kobe really just marginally better than the likes of Paul Pierce, or will he clearly shine above all of the Celt's big 3?


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

Yao Mania said:


> I'd put Kobe above Robinson and possibly Malone, and he still has a good few years left in him. Players also gets measured for winning championships, so unless KG wins it this year he and Ewing will always be considered a tier below the others.


Above Robinson? Robinson offered similar offensive production while grabbing 10+ rebounds per game and playing brilliant defense. 
Check out his numbers in '94: 30/11/5, shooting 50% from the field and 75% from the line (getting there an incredible 12 times a game). Only Wilt and MJ have had better seasons statistically. The year he was drafted, the Spurs went from 21 wins to 56. When he missed almost all of the '97 season to injury, they fell from 59 wins to 20. That's basically the difference between a top-3 side and the worst team in the league. The guy had an enormous impact on the court.
A lack of playoff success holds him back. But he never had good teammates in his prime. Certainly nothing like Kobe has now. And people forget that he was at least as good as Duncan in '99. 

Malone, Ewing and KG all offered as good or slightly worse offensive and rebounding output, while giving you far better defense. I mean, guys like Ewing can anchor a defense, immediately transforming an ordinary defensive side into one of the best in the league. Kobe's a good defender, but he can never even approach that level of impact.

Players do usually get measured by the number of championships they win. But that doesn't make it right. A player's teammates have far more of an effect on the outcome of games than the player himself. Counting titles to evaluate players is like trying to determine the rainiest place in the world by measuring the density of vegetation. There's a relationship there, but there are too many other factors for the measure to be reliable.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

Hakeem said:


> Above Robinson? Robinson offered similar offensive production while grabbing 10+ rebounds per game and playing brilliant defense.
> Check out his numbers in '94: 30/11/5, shooting 50% from the field and 75% from the line (getting there an incredible 12 times a game). Only Wilt and MJ have had better seasons statistically. The year he was drafted, the Spurs went from 21 wins to 56. When he missed almost all of the '97 season to injury, they fell from 59 wins to 20. That's basically the difference between a top-3 side and the worst team in the league. The guy had an enormous impact on the court.
> A lack of playoff success holds him back. But he never had good teammates in his prime. Certainly nothing like Kobe has now. And people forget that he was at least as good as Duncan in '99.
> 
> ...


Its not fair to be using rebounds to compare wing players with post players. Robinson was one of the best when he was on top of his game, but his injury took away one whole season during his prime. You'll remember Robinson for being great, but not for his career accomplishments. 

If Kobe gets points taken off for playing with Shaq, then Malone should get points taken off for playing with Stockton his whole career. Rockets fans sure would not forget how damn good Stockton was....

Ewing and KG are great consistent players, but do not exactly come across as guys that would take over games.

And there's a lot more intangibles involved when measuring a player, and that's what Kobe brings. Kobe is capable of dropping 40 a game for 8 straight games. Kobe is capable of scoring 81 points. And this season, Kobe proved he can be a leader.

You're right though, its hard to measure these things because there's so many factors to look at. But I really have no problem with the credit Kobe's getting for the Lakers' success this year, he is the heart and soul of the team.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

Yao Mania said:


> Its not fair to be using rebounds to compare wing players with post players.


Why not? That's why big men are valuable. It's what they bring. To not count that would be like ignoring Steve Nash's assists because he's a PG. Different players offer different things. That's what makes basketball -- or any sport -- fun to watch and interesting to talk about.



> Robinson was one of the best when he was on top of his game, but his injury took away one whole season during his prime. You'll remember Robinson for being great, but not for his career accomplishments.


It's true that he missed a season of his prime and was never the same again. But I'm talking prime value, regardless of the length of these guys primes. And still, Robinson did have a seven-year prime. And he may not have the career accomplishments (though he does have an MVP, a DPOY, a ROY, and 3 titles), but we're not looking at the most decorated player. We're thinking about who the best player is.



> If Kobe gets points taken off for playing with Shaq, then Malone should get points taken off for playing with Stockton his whole career. Rockets fans sure would not forget how damn good Stockton was....


Stockton helped Malone just as Penny/Kobe/Wade helped Shaq, Drexler helped Olajuwon, Manu/Parker help Duncan, etc. Stockton may have been a better passer than everyone else and a better shooter than most, but all these other guys brought other things, such as greater defensive attention drawn, the ability to take on a considerable scoring load, and slashing, dribble penetration and finishing ability. Basically, good guards help scoring big men. The better the guard, usually the easier it is for the big man. 
Kobe doesn't get points taken off for playing with Shaq. If anything, people factor in that Shaq limited his offensive output.



> Ewing and KG are great consistent players, but do not exactly come across as guys that would take over games.


You're right in that they couldn't take over games like Kobe can. But the point with these guys is that they were excellent rebounders and defenders. I mean, Kobe is definitely a better scorer than Garnett. But does that scoring make up for KG's 9 extra rebounds per game and far superior defense? What about Ewing's ability to protect the rim like very few else? You've seen a 40-year old Deke, right? Now imagine a guy like that, but with 25-year old legs. Now imagine him playing 40 minutes a night and scoring 29 points and grabbing 10 rebounds a game. That was Patrick Ewing.



> And there's a lot more intangibles involved when measuring a player, and that's what Kobe brings. Kobe is capable of dropping 40 a game for 8 straight games. Kobe is capable of scoring 81 points. And this season, Kobe proved he can be a leader.


Intangibles is probably my least favorite term when it comes to basketball. What could there possibly be that's that important but which we can't see on the court or in the stats sheets? Leadership? Virtually impossible for us to assess. Clutchness? We have stats for it (if it really exists). Intimidation? Again, too hard to measure between superstars. 
Kobe's ability to explode offensively is captured in his stats. His 81 points was captured fully in his season scoring average of 35 ppg and his PER that season of 28 (prime MJ? 32. Robinson? 31. KG? 29. Ewing? 25).

I hope I'm not coming across as an argumentative ***** here. This is interesting discussion. Right?


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## Nightfly (Sep 24, 2002)

At this point I guess I'm pulling for the Celtics.


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## HayesFan (Feb 16, 2006)

Nightfly said:


> At this point I guess I'm pulling for the Celtics.


Ditto. I am not a Kobe fan or a Garnett fan. But Garnett has been very complimentary about Rajon, so I am going with the Celtics.


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## Yao Mania (Aug 4, 2003)

Hakeem said:


> Why not? That's why big men are valuable. It's what they bring. To not count that would be like ignoring Steve Nash's assists because he's a PG. Different players offer different things. That's what makes basketball -- or any sport -- fun to watch and interesting to talk about.
> 
> 
> It's true that he missed a season of his prime and was never the same again. But I'm talking prime value, regardless of the length of these guys primes. And still, Robinson did have a seven-year prime. And he may not have the career accomplishments (though he does have an MVP, a DPOY, a ROY, and 3 titles), but we're not looking at the most decorated player. We're thinking about who the best player is.
> ...


Oh for sure, have always respected your opinion. This is a good debate, though drifting off-topic. 

I admit I've become a closet Kobe fan, so its still Lakers for me.


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## Cornholio (Feb 13, 2005)

:yay:


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