# Jazz @ Raptors, Nov. 11th



## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

<center>
















*Utah Jazz* (3-2) @ *Toronto Raptors* (0-4)
November 11th, 2005, 7:00PM EST
The Score





































*Keith McLeod, Gordon Giricek, Andrei Kirilenko, Mehmet Okur, Greg Ostertag*

<IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="JAMES, MIKE" TITLE="JAMES, MIKE" SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/speedythief/raptors/mjames0.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="ROSE, JALEN" TITLE="ROSE, JALEN" SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/speedythief/raptors/jrose0.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="GRAHAM, JOEY" TITLE="GRAHAM, JOEY" SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/speedythief/raptors/jgraham0.jpg"> <IMG WIDTH=100 HEIGHT=150 BORDER=0 ALT="BOSH, CHRIS" TITLE="BOSH, CHRIS" SRC="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/speedythief/raptors/cbosh0.jpg"> <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/speedythief/raptors/aawilliams0.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">
*Mike James, Jalen Rose, Joey Graham, Chris Bosh, Aaron Williams*</center>


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

Kirilenko has been a monster on defence.. i believe he had 7 the other night.

I hope he's gentle. 

I also hope in his 2 minutes of action, Palacio ruptures both achillies tendons in the dying seconds of the game.

I yeah.. i also hope that Raptors win..

PS why isn't Deron starting over McLeod?


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

I don't know why a lot of people are predicting a win in this one, including myself. The Jazz are a solid team, (are over .500), and have a terrific coach. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to see them beat us on Friday.


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## aizn (Jun 19, 2005)

remembrance day.... remember the days wen the utah jazz had john stockton n karl malone, so sad they never won a championship 2gether.


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## spinz (Aug 19, 2005)

side note...does Greg Ostertag look pregnant...looks like he gained a few pounds...

i expect Hoffa to see some decent minutes in this game...i feel he actually has a chance to match up with Ostertag, we'll see, i expect us to win, in fact i predicted it on another post, so hopefully our squad won't let us down...

and they need a fresh point of the season to build off of, a convincing win on Friday may be the 'TSN' turning point...who knows...


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

hope to be a good game, Ostertag is a blocking and rebound machine, getting 13 boards, and 5 blocks in a game. This is the best I have ever seen ostertag play out of all the seasons he was with us, it is amazing how much his game looks better without paying him a huge contract. 

Deron Williams isnt starting because sloan wants to make him earn his position. He doesnt want to just give it to him without the work involved, you know sloan... he doesnt like to give rookies big heads or let them get low confidence. Screwed that up on deshawn stevenson... I expect after about 5 more big games of deron williams that he will be starting and geting some minutes.


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## Benis007 (May 23, 2005)

Question - Has Mcleod earned it?


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

Benis007 said:


> Question - Has Mcleod earned it?


He was the starter last year because we traded arroyo and lopez was hurt most of the time. Sooooo.... jerry sloan is making him earn the spot by taking the spot away from the starter from last year. It makes deron williams play even harder an then it will be more worth to him to take the spot rather than have the spot


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## AReallyCoolGuy (Jul 25, 2004)

Utah Usually kills us with a barrage of wide open midrange jumpers.

Edit: And Memo was takin' Bosh to school in the preseason, lets hope there's no repeat tomorrow night


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

were gonan loose...buts thats ok...the Jazz are underated..as long as we loose fighting im happy...what i am hoping to see is what happen with the starting lineuo,,,i want to see who strts and who gets benched...lets hope that Jose gets the start...same with E and Aa dub...


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Yeah, Jazz are a pretty good team. Probably better than us now they have AK back, even without Boozer. Still, games don't get much more winnable than this so I'm thinking we can pull it off. We've had time to rest and practice; Sam will refine his lineups; Bosh has broken out of his mini-funk. 

I just hope to god that Loren doesn't start.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

^ From recent comments it looks like Loren might be falling out of favour again. Took him about half the sesaon last year... maybe less this year.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Raps can we this one, the Jazz are really lacking offense, AK is shoot a low %.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

lol @ McLeod's picture being so zoomed out.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

I know it's only projected, but those won't be the starters.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

blowuptheraptors said:


> I know it's only projected, but those won't be the starters.


Yeah, so I've been hearing.

What's that line a poster around here likes to use, "rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic,"?


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## adhir1 (Dec 28, 2004)

speedythief said:


> Yeah, so I've been hearing.
> 
> What's that line a poster around here likes to use, "rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic,"?


ive never heard..nor do i know what it maens...


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## dtron (Jun 11, 2004)

it doesnt matter how you rearranged them, there still going to sink? i dunno
but any team with ostertag on it, is set to win a championship...
the raps will lose tomorrow but i will be happy if the raps give some effort and make it look difficult for the jazz instead of the raps last 3 opponents who didnt even break a sweat


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

dtron said:


> it doesnt matter how you rearranged them, there still going to sink? i dunno
> but any team with ostertag on it, is set to win a championship...
> the raps will lose tomorrow but i will be happy if the raps give some effort and make it look difficult for the jazz instead of the raps last 3 opponents who didnt even break a sweat


Yeah, you cracked the code on that one.

And hopefully we do more than just "make a run" in the third when we're already down by 25. Usually at the same time the other team puts their rookies on and stops caring.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

By gawd, 3 days of no raptor ball is killing me. 

not even those great games last night helped much.


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## BBB (Jan 19, 2005)

Don't see a win for us in this one either.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

It would love to know where the first win will come. I think we CAN win v. any mediocre to bad team. We were very close to beating the Wiz. 

The 1st win(s) should come out over the next week and a half or 5 games v. Utah, Sea, Phi, Phi and Bos. Other than the Sac game, this month is really tough.

0-16 anyone? :eek8:


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## toiletscrubber (Sep 22, 2002)

Benis007 said:


> PS why isn't Deron starting over McLeod?


that would make jazz the first team in a long while to have 5 white guyz starting...


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## Divine Spammer (Jul 11, 2005)

I'm always optimistic!
Therefore I say the Raps are going to win in a close match. :banana:


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

i have to admit, i'm impressed with how the raptors (both coaches and players) have publicly handled this week of frustration. i haven't been much of a sam mitchell fan, although i've certainly _wanted_ to become one, but he's shown tact, vision and wisdom (imo) in his public appearances/interviews setting up this particular game. meanwhile, charlie, joey and mop have also been fantastic this week (imo).

the psychic in me predicts a win tonight. i think we're ready to embrace the talents we have on the roster and finally end this winless madness. last friday was supremely disappointing, but i'm expecting a new team tonight. let's get it done, boys. i'm behind all of you.

peace


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

The game is at 8:00 atlantic time, so I can catch it at the bar tonight. However, my friends are also having a TPB marathon starting at 8:00... hmm... 

just playin it's all Raps.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

ballocks had my sentiments all in his post am feeling fresh after these few days of not crying after the initial dissapointment of the first few games... anyways luk for a big game from MO and charlie and maybe graham 2 

gluck guys


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

Go Raptors! First win tonight!


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

that was the best 1st quater the raps have played so far this season


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

followed by a great quater by utah in the 2nd


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

What do you think of the rookie andre owens? He made the team in preseason.


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## nwt (Apr 24, 2005)

Waitwaitwait

Aren't you playing in the game right now???^


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

milt palcio is in now...


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

nwt said:


> Waitwaitwait
> 
> Aren't you playing in the game right now???^


dont you see me on that laptop? during breaks?


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

AK-47 said:


> followed by a great quater by utah in the 2nd


pretty much


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

Great first quarter, best most energetic Defense I've seen a year. Too bad that all disappeared after that

game close in the second, at which point Sam decides to go small (Bonner/Villanueva down low
) and Utah then opens up a 10+ point lead......hhmmm, guess that didn't work Sam!!!

3rd quarter now, defense is back to regular atrousious levels, Utah is scoring at will

I can't wait till Jalen is gone, just had to throw that in!!


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

looks like Aruajo and Woods will be watching the game from the bench, I doubt it will make any difference

It's getting ugly now, close to 20 lead by Utah


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## [email protected] (Sep 27, 2005)

we couldnt buy a point at the moment.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

Having 2 7 footer out there in Okur and Ostertag are really a daunting task for the Raps to deal with


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

Deron Williams looking good!

end of 3rd, Raps down 10
68-58


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

TRON said:


> Deron Williams looking good!
> 
> end of 3rd, Raps down 10
> 68-58


The next kidd! He should be starting before too long if he keeps that up. Jazz should get owens back in there, that kid can shoot.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

Mitchell puts out yet another new lineup out there to start the 4th....
Bosh/CV3/Bonner/MoPete/Calderon


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

TRON said:


> I can't wait till Jalen is gone, just had to throw that in!!


its not his fault


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

^ No not soley his fault, but sure aint helping much

7 mins left, Raps down by 9


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## [email protected] (Sep 27, 2005)

observation: Sam Mitchell has given up before the actual team has.

Attitude reflects leadership... ... ... ... with his hands in his face mouthing "Oh My Gosh" and "Come On Guys" and "Man No Way..." ... ... ... if the some of the fans are still cheering their lungs out, then why is this guy sitting on his lazy *** crying like a little *****...?


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## nwt (Apr 24, 2005)

Whered Aaron go


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

Utah killing us in every aspect of the game

Boards
threes 
Defense 
offense

Calderon, Bonner and Bosh brought it tonight, but not enough help from the rest of the team


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

> Originally posted by *nwt !*
> 
> Whered Aaron go


he was playing well in the first quarter, so Sam decided to sit him the rest of the way :no:


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

Raps with two chances to close the Gap below 9 with 2:30 to go, 
Jalen misses 3, CV3 turnover

Raps had a chance to get it close, but it looks like it will be another 10+ point loss


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

Raps lose 99-84
-Boos already starting to reign down at the end, fans are in for a long year!!
-youthful inexperience vs. Veteran mix, the Vets usually win

*Player of the Game*
Memet Okur
Chris Bosh


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## spinz (Aug 19, 2005)

good to see bonner have a good game...

CB4 is trying to lead by example and looked good tonite...

the rooks all looked good.

CV3 continues to show ability to score in different ways

Joey is showing ability to drive to the basket and not rely too much on the mid-range game...a few more games with more confidence in driving, graham will start to pad some nice stats...

Jose is showing court vision and quick first step...


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I don't mind losing, really. A team like ours is going to. We expected it. Everyone expected it.

But we're losing in a bad way. We're getting nothing out of these games. And our coach doesn't look like he cares anymore.

I don't care if we lose ten or twelve games in a row--we'd better stop losing _this way_.


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## [email protected] (Sep 27, 2005)

yup i almost officially disrespect Sam Mitchell for his attitude in the game. I think he only gets up if we're making a run, or if it's half time, or it's a time out.... we need someone like Flip Saunders who's on his feet 80% of the time losing his voice shelling out commands and encouragement to his players...damnit...


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## Divine Spammer (Jul 11, 2005)

Can you please tell me why Jalen played 40 minutes?
I'm trying to understand, but I just can't. Why?


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Three positive signs from this game:

1. First Q Defense - We saw actual defensive rotations!!! Aaron was not the difference here, it was the other 4 guys doing their job. When Aaron went to help on a guard his man (Oostertag) was not left wide open. Another Raptor rotated to him and picked off the pass. Even Bosh and Rose were rotating properly.

2. Matt Bonner - 15pts/8reb and his defense was much improved. This is the energetic Bonner from last year with the golden shot. Made some very nice defensive plays. Smart player.

3. Jose Calderon continues to shine. Thought he had more assists than the stat line shows. Must have been missed shots or fouls.

The desperation move of starting Aaron while benching our only 2 true Cs did absolutely nothing. Nice of Sam to give Aaron the start against the absolute worst C the Raps have seen all year. Oostertag is not exactly BigZ, BenWallace, Haywood, or Krstic. Doesn't even look to score. 

What is the plan there? How does he then justify going back to Hoff and Loren? What has it done to their confidence to be the ONLY players blamed for our losing? Nobody else lost minutes. Nobody. Why are Loren and Hoff such scapegoats? Loren is Top10 in rebounds per 48 while Hoff only plays 5mpg. Dumb move IMO. You have to play every team at least twice as a rookie before you start to really understand the players and the systems. We are delaying Hoff's development by not playing him. Utah has done fine with that stiff Ostertag starting for years. He fills a role.

Rose continues to suck. Started off taking nice short shots from the post and then became a chucker the rest of the way.

Charlie continues to suck. We have to play Bonner at C because of him. How about some rebounds Charlie? 3.4rpg from our 7 pick. Loren gets more in half the time. So would Hoff if he ever plays.

Bad night for Mo but he has been solid all year. Bosh continues to struggle being a first option with defences keying on him.

We need more plays for Joey. He can post up anybody, and can create pretty well.


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## dtron (Jun 11, 2004)

the reason they lost to utah was sam mitchell, he refused to play a centre, just like he refuses to play defence. He stacks the lineup with 3 point shooters and wonders why they shoot so many 3's. He refuses to play a centre and wonders why they dont make rebounds. aaron williams is the answer on defence for the raptors and sam refuses to let him play. he would rather play 3 PF'S via bonner,charlie and bosh and hoping that combined they will create some super centre like some sort of mighty morphin' power rangers moment.

and there really is no excuse not to get hoffa more minutes in the last few games, iam the harshes critic of hoffa but even i know that he needs time to build if he ever going to be a "good" player. at least put him on at the end when they have no chance of winning so he can get experience.


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## Divine Spammer (Jul 11, 2005)

dtron said:


> the reason they lost to utah was sam mitchell, he refused to play a centre, just like he refuses to play defence. He stacks the lineup with 3 point shooters and wonders why they shoot so many 3's. He refuses to play a centre and wonders why they dont make rebounds. aaron williams is the answer on defence for the raptors and sam refuses to let him play. he would rather play 3 PF'S via bonner,charlie and bosh and hoping that combined they will create some super centre like some sort of mighty morphin' power rangers moment.
> 
> and there really is no excuse not to get hoffa more minutes in the last few games, iam the harshes critic of hoffa but even i know that he needs time to build if he ever going to be a "good" player. at least put him on at the end when they have no chance of winning so he can get experience.


I totally agree with you. 
From what I've seen, Sam just doesn't know how to run a team in a game. 
But he doesn't need to be fired. Not necessarily. We can bring an Assistant who'll help it that area.


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## [email protected] (Sep 27, 2005)

lol Mitchell is only asst. coach quality anyhow?


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## Divine Spammer (Jul 11, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> lol Mitchell is only asst. coach quality anyhow?


I know... but to fire a head coach is quite a big deal, IMO.


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## [email protected] (Sep 27, 2005)

we really need some X's and O's, someone real technical, and at the same time, creates a balance by allowing them to play as creatively as they can...


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## foul_balls (Jun 25, 2004)

lucky777s said:


> Charlie continues to suck. We have to play Bonner at C because of him. How about some rebounds Charlie? 3.4rpg from our 7 pick. Loren gets more in half the time. So would Hoff if he ever plays.


I agree with everything in your post except for the CV part. It is interesting that we watch the same player and see different things. 

With Charlie, I see a player with good offensive moves and speed froma 6-10 player that you normally don't see. He got caught on a defensive switch guarding Deron Williams and still had the speed to stay with him on a drive to the basket for the block. There is great offensive potential with Charlie, too. Yeah, his defensive rotations still suck but he is a rookie and his rebounding has to improve. He has shown ten times the potential of Hoffa ever did last year. At least he can stay in front of his man without fouling every time.

_____________
Saw some good signs of improvement. They have started crashing the offensive boards which is good and there interior defense was better (Still huge lapses tho).

This team needs help. They can't get a basket or a defensive stop at key times. Jalen is not doing it on either end, for someone making the max. Good chance for their first win against the struggling Sonics on Sun.


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## Theberge43 (Nov 2, 2004)

Got to see my first game yesterday ...

Gotta love Calderon, he is really good for the flow of the offense ... Bosh played good not great and he looks more and more like a Raptor everyday ! 

Defensively though we all suck ! On every attack in the second half, Utah got an open shot after a pick and roll .... Okur & Owens were killing us ! Even Deron was getting open shots ...

No help defense at all, the posts don't come up after the pick, after 3 or 4 3s you would think they'd get it ... I think we have the talent, but mentally we're not there ...

Oh, and trade Jalen Rose for g*d's sake !


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

MoP, better shut his mouth, maybe the night you can't buy a shot isn't the one you should start calling everyone out...*******


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## italianBBlover (Mar 5, 2003)

dtron said:


> the reason they lost to utah was sam mitchell, he refused to play a centre, just like he refuses to play defence. He stacks the lineup with 3 point shooters and wonders why they shoot so many 3's. He refuses to play a centre and wonders why they dont make rebounds. aaron williams is the answer on defence for the raptors and sam refuses to let him play. he would rather play 3 PF'S via bonner,charlie and bosh and hoping that combined they will create some super centre like some sort of mighty morphin' power rangers moment.


With the right players and the right coach, the system would work quite well.

Just look the Suns or the Sonic 2004-2005

Long life to the "small ball"


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Well the player of the game (for the Raptors), in my opinion was, Matt Bonner.

The return of the Red Rocket, there's something positive that people can talk about.

He had great stats last night,

15 pnts, 8 rebs 3 off, 4 stl's, 4/3 three's, 6-10 fg's, 2 ***'s!

not to mention his hustle on D and the fact that HE PLAYED THE 5!

Bonner is back baby :smile:


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

foul_balls said:


> I agree with everything in your post except for the CV part. It is interesting that we watch the same player and see different things.
> 
> With Charlie, I see a player with good offensive moves and speed froma 6-10 player that you normally don't see. He got caught on a defensive switch guarding Deron Williams and still had the speed to stay with him on a drive to the basket for the block. There is great offensive potential with Charlie, too. Yeah, his defensive rotations still suck but he is a rookie and his rebounding has to improve. He has shown ten times the potential of Hoffa ever did last year. At least he can stay in front of his man without fouling every time.


You are just talking about potential here. Where are the results? Charlie has already had 10 times the opportunity to shine than Hoff was given all last year. Major minutes in 5 consecutive games and no results for Mr. Versatility. 26mpg 8ppg on 44% shooting, 2/11 (18%) from 3pt, and a pathetically low 3.4rpg (Hoff averaged that in only 12mpg and is a bust). We supposedly drafted this guy as a BIG, someone who could help our rebounding. Where is that guy? Instead we have a tall SF along the lines of Mike Dunleavy or Vlad Radmanovich or Tim Thomas. We are forced to play Bonner at C to get him minutes. His best rebounding game so far is 6. Not even a whiff of a 10 rebound game. I think Hoff got a double double in one of his first starts.

All my doubts about Charlie have thus far been proven correct. It's early, but he had better start showing a lot more toughness to his game. He's got nice touch for his height but he is far from the star player everyone was so hot over in pre-season. Where is the ROY thread now?


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

lucky777s said:


> You are just talking about potential here. Where are the results? Charlie has already had 10 times the opportunity to shine than Hoff was given all last year. Major minutes in 5 consecutive games and no results for Mr. Versatility. 26mpg 8ppg on 44% shooting, 2/11 (18%) from 3pt, and a pathetically low 3.4rpg (Hoff averaged that in only 12mpg and is a bust). We supposedly drafted this guy as a BIG, someone who could help our rebounding. Where is that guy? Instead we have a tall SF along the lines of Mike Dunleavy or Vlad Radmanovich or Tim Thomas. We are forced to play Bonner at C to get him minutes. His best rebounding game so far is 6. Not even a whiff of a 10 rebound game. I think Hoff got a double double in one of his first starts.
> 
> All my doubts about Charlie have thus far been proven correct. It's early, but he had better start showing a lot more toughness to his game. He's got nice touch for his height but he is far from the star player everyone was so hot over in pre-season. Where is the ROY thread now?


what the heck are you talking about? opportunity? Hoffa got the 'opportunity' to start 41 games last year. Sam has put him on the court this year too, only aside from one game in preseason he hasn't done jack****.

as far as Villaneuva goes, 8 points, on 4-9 shooting in 26 minutes ain't that bad. toughness? did you watch the game last night? His best work was around the bucket. His rebouding low, but hoffa can't rebound either, at least with CV3 you get a couple of wicked blocks like last night.

Bottom line, Charlie spread 4 fouls over 26 minutes, if hoffa could play that long and only have that many fouls he would. Sam's hands are tied with hoffa, if he doesn't show up every time he's on the court, he's out and not worth the PT to develope. hoffa needs to do something, other then foul, whens he's on the court.


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

shookem, you are 'star struck' over all the Villy hype from pre-season.

Hoffa's career high for minutes in a game is 26. Charlie is averaging that. Hoff's season high for boards was 14 and points was 14. Neither were in that game where he got the most minutes. So he did it in under 26 minutes. Charlie hasn't even got 7 boards in a game despite playing over 30 minutes in one.

Hoff's 41 starts is a joke stat. His average minutes for that year were only 12. Supposedly he gets pulled for lack of production, right? So why is his production better than Charlie's and Charlie gets a free ride with no accountability?

2004 season 12mpg 3.3 and 3.1 for Hoff. Better than 6 and 6 in 24 minutes.
2005 season 26mpg 8ppg and 3.4 for Villy. Not so hot compared to Hoff the bust.

2005 season 6mpg 1 and 1 for Hoff works out to 4 and 4 in 24 minutes. Still better than what Charlie is doing in more minutes.

1% difference in FG% between Charlie this year and Hoff last year.

And Charlies D is pathetic. Much worse than Hoffs. Charlie doesn't foul as much because he is too far from his man and doesnt' rotate to help.

All Sam talks about is D and rebounding. Charlie gives us neither right now. The stats say Hoff is better at everything but scoring, and even that has more to do with attempts. Hoff misses 1 three and sits the rest of a game. Charlie goes 2/11 and still gets bigs minutes. Sam is giving Charlie way more opportunity.

If Hoff is a bust then you have to call Charlie the same, so far.


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## The_Notic (Nov 10, 2005)

Theres lots of reasons we lost this game.. but the one that really pisses me off is the fact that chris bosh was just too damn timid and, excuse my french, but ----- to go out and gaurd Mehmet Okur on the perimeter because he was afraid he was going to get beaten off of the dribble, he should have no problem contesting the shot, while being able to gaurd the drive, chris is faster and taller than Okur, no excuse... and bonner is such a freakin liabiliy at the 3.. playin CV, Bosh and bonner is just retarded.. aaron williams was playin well, why the hell did he have to sit... im so pissed, losing is losing, but lose cuz you played your best players the best possible way, mo pete is right, management sucks.. why cant we be like the bobcats and lose with dignity for gods sake... they keep it interesting.. im blamin Mitchell, Bosh.. not so much bonner because it is not his fault he is out there at the 3

That my 2 cents...


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

Utah getting a nice lead over the Nugz in the midwest. 

Mitchell doesn't find any burn for Hoff. Disappointing.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

lucky, you're missing the point..
Hoffa can't be in the game for 26 minutes, because he fouls too much, last year in 12 mpg he averaged 2.7 fouls per game. this year charlie is doing 3 fouls per game in 26 minutes. Charlie is out there because he isn't the liability that hoffa is.

look at the stats man, all last year, THE ENTIRE SEASON, hoffa only got 8 blocks. 8 piddily blocks in the 59 games hoffa played in.

So far, this year alone, in FIVE games CV3 has 6 blocks, so don't even try to say Villanueva is a worse defender. is he great? hell no. good? sometimes, but certainly not always. is he better then hoffa? of course, Matt Bonner is a better defender (a defended well last night) then hoffa.

I agree that hoffa needs some PT, but your comparision with charlie are laughable. keep in mind this entire agrument excludes potential, which charlie has way more of then hoff.


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## TRON (Feb 29, 2004)

I think that CV3 and Graham will be fine, even with the early season struggles. There is a reason why both rooks have shined in the preseason but have so far faltered in the real games. IMO they are defering to the vets, where the preseason they were allowed to play as if they were the first or second option

Our offense is weak, and we have few players that can create their own shot, I would love to see Charlie and Joey get more opportunities to handle the ball and score. Charlie might be one of the most creative players we have, but as of yet I haven't seen the team give him the opportunities that he got in the preseason to succeed.


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## kindred (Dec 26, 2004)

The_Notic said:


> Theres lots of reasons we lost this game.. but the one that really pisses me off is the fact that chris bosh was just too damn timid and, excuse my french, but ----- to go out and gaurd Mehmet Okur on the perimeter because he was afraid he was going to get beaten off of the dribble, he should have no problem contesting the shot, while being able to gaurd the drive, chris is faster and taller than Okur, no excuse... and bonner is such a freakin liabiliy at the 3.. playin CV, Bosh and bonner is just retarded.. aaron williams was playin well, why the hell did he have to sit... im so pissed, losing is losing, but lose cuz you played your best players the best possible way, mo pete is right, management sucks.. why cant we be like the bobcats and lose with dignity for gods sake... they keep it interesting.. im blamin Mitchell, Bosh.. not so much bonner because it is not his fault he is out there at the 3
> 
> That my 2 cents...


um, a-train was in foul trouble, wasn't he?


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Actually, even if you extend Hoffa's fouls per minute stat he could easily average 26mpg as his fouls per game would be under 6 (5.85). And the truth is he would decrease his fouls per minute with more experience and just getting enough consecutive minutes to get in the flow of the game.

And in that time he would get far more boards than Villy and actually clear space for Bosh and others to get more boards as well. To try and say Villy is a better player because he fouls less is ludicrous. Not one nba player has been able to back down Hoffa in the post. He got beat with quickness at times last year but never gave up the easy low post looks that Donny, Bosh, Bonner, and now Villy do. Hoff only gets into trouble when he has to rotate and recover. And that was as much to do with the other 4 guys not rotating as it was his lack of speed or bball IQ (which is still an issue for Hoff).

One poster who watched every game of his at BYU said it was Hoff's pattern to pick up 2 quick fouls but his coach left him in the game and he quickly settled down and played well. I guess Sam hasn't watched those tapes.

You can't compare Hoff and Villy as athletes, but you can compare what they bring to the floor and ask which player could add more value to the lineup at the position of C. Clearly Hoff is the better C for this team playing next to Bosh.

And I would say that Joey and MoP are the better SFs. Bonner may be a better backup PF. That's the reality based on what Charlie has shown so far.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Shookem, he's not even getting the opportunity to foul out, though. That's the problem. If he doesn't have a chance to learn and correct his mistakes through NBA experience, what's going to help him? Dude needs over 5 minutes of PT a game, to try and justify the pick, to help out on D and rebounding, and to help establish our supposed centre of the future. Practice is nice, but without consistent playing time he's got a one-way ticket straight to nowhere.


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## foul_balls (Jun 25, 2004)

lucky777s said:


> To try and say Villy is a better player because he fouls less is ludicrous. Not one nba player has been able to back down Hoffa in the post. He got beat with quickness at times last year but never gave up the easy low post looks that Donny, Bosh, Bonner, and now Villy do. Hoff only gets into trouble when he has to rotate and recover. And that was as much to do with the other 4 guys not rotating as it was his lack of speed or bball IQ (which is still an issue for Hoff).


Lucky, you say Shookem is blinded by Charlie's great pre-season, but it seems you are blinded by some kind of Charlie hate after only 5 games. I am not sure why you want to give so much love to Hoffa who had opportunities last year and hate on Charlie after only 5 games. They both have potential (Charlie has tons more IMO) and Hoffa has had a few more opportunities to show it.

Sure, I think Hoffa deserves more opportunities. It is only his second season and he can still possibly pan out like some late bloomin C's do. But to say Charlie sucks (which was the original disagreement)is a bit off base. You also seem to disregard athleticism and potential into the equation (Charlie's strengths), which i don't understand after 5 games.

Here are the defensive stats over 48 mins

_________Hoffa CV (rebounds)
DefReb____ 8.06 4.09
TO________3.46 2.60
Stl_______1.54 0.37
Blks______ 0.38 2.23
PF_______ 10.37 5.58

Clear edge to Hoffa in rebounds and steals(although I think the 5-game sample is too small for steals) 
Clear edge to CV in protecting thte ball, blocks, and personal fouls. Fouls are important. Hoffa can keep his position but he picks up fouls because he is too slow shuffling his feet to keep in front of any quick player.

The stuff about Hoffa rotating and lacking the speed to get back is your opinion, but I think it is relevant. If I can infer, you are basically saying that the other Raptors need to cover for Araujo's slow footedness and lack of athleticism. Even if they do cover (since you claim they don't), that would leave Hoffa covering someone who would be too fast for him anyway or in no-man's land, where IMO he usually is on defense.

Our opinions are night and day. You can probably agree that Charlie is good offensive player who needs to improve his rebounding. But where you see a possible "Tim Thomas", I see a possible "Pau Gasol". And I am not sure why you are so high on Joey's potential yet pessimistic on Charlie's equally good potential. Let's hope that all 3 of them pan out.


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

I like Hoffas ability to deny post position, but I'm worried players will just start shooting over him. He's so earthhbound it's silly

like the Portland game where he totally denied Miles the paint, which was NICE, but a play later Miles just turned around and shot over him. Right with Hoffa in his face

also don't see all these things he's supposedly doing to make Bosh's life easier. I see him guard the post well once in a while. Thats about it


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

foul_balls said:


> Lucky, you say Shookem is blinded by Charlie's great pre-season, but it seems you are blinded by some kind of Charlie hate after only 5 games. .


Lucky is the president of the CV hater club for sure lol

and of the Hoffa Could Be Useful club (I kinda agree, but man. Still can't earn more than 5 when we are DYING for a center ???)


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## ansoncarter (Dec 22, 2004)

check the hoffa/cv stats now


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

yeah lucky777, where are you bud?

lol, don't ever tell me that Charlie is worse the hoffa, lol....7 offense boards today


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