# Darko for Rasheed - Rice reports GMs talk



## Discovery69

I read from Hoopsworld some of the Blazers fans reporting the following....

Mike Rice in his pre-game reports that Nash & Dumars have talked about Rasheed for Milicic.

Local Portland sports radio KFXX said after the Detroit game this is the rumor being discussed:

*Rasheed Wallace to Detroit
Darko Milicic, Elden Campbell, Bob Sura & Hubert Davis*

Campbell's contract is through '04-'05. Davis is another outside shooter and Sura is a defensive player, both at SG. Sura can play some PG too.

Looks like the rumor is having some legs of it's own with the GMs.


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## RoseCity

:rbanana:


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## FloridaSportsFan

That would be a great trade by both Detriot and Portland, but where would Wallace fit in Detroit


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## KokoTheMonkey

Does Detroit value Wallace that much? They already want to give up on a on their second pick?


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## Trader Ed

A couple of comments...

1) Anything KFXX reports on the air is nothing worth every considering as anything close to valid unless the trade is one month old and done

2) With Sura and Davis.... we get a glutten of guards, but having Campbell and Milicic would be a good deal. I would rather get a SF in the trade.... Tayshaun Prince or maybe Corliss Williamson is a good candidate, decent contract with a few years left. He is a pretty decent player and we could use him. Prince might be too high a price to ask

Okur would be nice, but as others have stated it would be difficult to resign Okur since he does not have Bird rights, and the most we could offer him is MLE.

3) Check out the other thread about these two teams. Some of our posters have some really good comments about these 2 teams doing a deal. Personally I would love Milicic and Prince just for Sheed

Pistons want Wallace thread 

4) Other combinations: (for Sheed a min of $15.65 mill will work in return)
Milicic $3.6 mil, Williamson $5.0 mil , Rebraca $4.2 mil ,+ Sura $6.2 mil = $19 mil *(My fave)*
Milicic $3.6 mil, Williamson $5.0 mil, Sura $6.2 mil, + Campbell $4.0 mil = $18.8 mil


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## HOWIE

> Originally posted by <b>rohawk24</b>!
> Does Detroit value Wallace that much? They already want to give up on a on their second pick?


Nah, first Detroit would get a big man for the rest of the season to help win the East, then they would have some money to go after a player during the summer that might help them long term. This trade would make Detroit the Beast in the East. Wow, the Wallace boys would be fun, admit it!  

I am sure that Rasheed would be switching with Ben between center and power forward. Larry Brown wants to win now and this would help, but only if they are able to get that big fish FA this coming summer with the expiring contract that Rasheed has.

I think it helps both teams in what they are trying to do. Portland is changing their makeup and Detroit is looking for that piece to put them over the top, in the East at least.


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## Dre

As good as Darko can be, he wasn't their pick. They lucked out on that # 2. They aren't in a pressing position to keep hin, since they are established so I wouldn't mind this deal. It's pretty Even for both teams. Rasheed is arguably what Darko would end up as. A big man who can put the ball on the floor, and play all three front-court positions effectively also. Even trade.


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## Minstrel

Can you imagine the front court defense with Wallace and Wallace up front? And toss Tayshawn Prince in as the 6'10'' defensive-minded small forward?

With Mehmet Okur off the bench?

And good backcourt production from Chauncy Billups and Rip Hamilton?

Honestly, that could be the Eastern version of the Spurs and have a decent chance of actually winning the NBA championship. With Rasheed Wallace to battle Duncan (and he's always defended Duncan very well) or Webber, or Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace to defend Shaq and Malone, the Pistons would actually have a shot against the West.

I think that's enough of a temptation to make Detroit seriously consider dealing Milicic.


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## Ben1

This is actually a pretty good trade for both teams. 

Pistons can really become a true title contender with this trade, after getting much needed scoring help upfront.


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## Kmurph

AS a POR fan, I just want to see this trade move from rumour to REALITY.


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## Dan

I doubt that Detroit would already be offering Darko, but despite the fact I hate Elden Campbell, I'd think seriously about this trade. Especially if the blazers pick(s) are not involved.


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## Siouxperior

What exactly did Rice say? I missed the pre-game show. Would they trade their #2 overalll pick during his rookie year? Maybe this rumor has legs, or it could be Rice running his mouth again lol


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## arenas809

This trade needs to come to fruition, and I believe it will.

I doubt you guys will get Darko AND Tayshaun...


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## Goldmember

I would be very wary of Darko if the Pistons have already given up on him.


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## MLKG

The Pistons haven't given up on Darko, he WON'T be traded. EXPECIALLY for a guy like Rasheed Wallace. He is absolutely everything the Piston's team is NOT about. He would not get along with the guys in Detroit, they simply wouldn't put up with his crap, and he would be gone next season.

The only way this would ever happen is if Kevin Garnett didn't resign with the Wolves and Detroit was looking for cap space.

I mean seriously. Detroit is already one of the front runners to get Rasheed in free agency next year anyway, why would they trade their player of the future for him now?


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## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> The Pistons haven't given up on Darko, he WON'T be traded. EXPECIALLY for a guy like Rasheed Wallace. He is absolutely everything the Piston's team is NOT about. He would not get along with the guys in Detroit, they simply wouldn't put up with his crap, and he would be gone next season.
> 
> The only way this would ever happen is if Kevin Garnett didn't resign with the Wolves and Detroit was looking for cap space.
> 
> I mean seriously. Detroit is already one of the front runners to get Rasheed in free agency next year anyway, why would they trade their player of the future for him now?


um..to help their chances at winning a title *now* vs maybe getting him next year?

Also, his salary comes off of the cap at the end of the season, and they can then get someone else maybe (I don't know their cap situation). 

How do you know they wouldn't like him on the team? And if he's absolutely not what the pistons are about, why are they one of the front runners for him next year anyway?

I agree that they aren't giving up on Darko yet, but at the same time, a title now is better than nothing.


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## WhoDaBest23

Seems like a really good trade for both teams. If Milicic is as good as advertised, then Portland should really consider this. PLus they'll get some quality utility players too. Rasheed Wallace in Detroit is just scary if you think about it..


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## Fork

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> The Pistons haven't given up on Darko, he WON'T be traded. EXPECIALLY for a guy like Rasheed Wallace. He is absolutely everything the Piston's team is NOT about. He would not get along with the guys in Detroit, they simply wouldn't put up with his crap, and he would be gone next season.
> 
> The only way this would ever happen is if Kevin Garnett didn't resign with the Wolves and Detroit was looking for cap space.
> 
> I mean seriously. Detroit is already one of the front runners to get Rasheed in free agency next year anyway, why would they trade their player of the future for him now?


Don't sound TOO sure of yourself. Expecially [sic] since you know nothing about the likelyhood of this happening, just like the rest of us. 

Detroit still can't win a championship vs. any of the top 5 teams in the west, even if they did get to the finals. Adding Wallace would help. Might give them a 20% chance of beating the Lakers in the finals.


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## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> The Pistons haven't given up on Darko, he WON'T be traded. EXPECIALLY for a guy like Rasheed Wallace. He is absolutely everything the Piston's team is NOT about. He would not get along with the guys in Detroit, they simply wouldn't put up with his crap, and he would be gone next season.


Larry Brown has NO history of being able to control hard-to-handle players. Oh, wait. That's wrong. Allen Iverson and Derrick Coleman have both been team leaders on successful Larry Brown teams.

I think that while there's still only a slim chance of something like this happening, you're either distorting or misunderstanding what Rasheed's like as a person and a player. His teammates sometimes wish he'd do more, but they love him as a teammate and he'd get along great, I'd be willing to bet, with the current crop of Pistons.



> I mean seriously. Detroit is already one of the front runners to get Rasheed in free agency next year anyway, why would they trade their player of the future for him now?


Why on earth do you think Detroit is a front-runner to sign Rasheed? He's not going to be able to get as much money as he's making now, but he's going to be able to command more than the MLE, which is all Detroit should have unless they clear space and let Mehmet leave. If he CAN'T demand more than the MLE (either with an under the cap team or in a sign and trade with Portland and another team), he'll go to Dallas or Philadelphia ahead of Detroit, it seems to me.

Ed O.


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## ripct

I'm trying to keep my hope down on this rumor, but I just can't help to comment on it. This trade would be an absolutely awesome deal to start the early rebuilding process. If this trade were to happen, Portland's chances of making the playoffs this season would be very slim. We would, IMO, be so far out of the playoffs that we would be in position to draft a mid to high lottery pick. Along with Memphis' likely lottery-bound pick, we would have TWO lottery picks, Darko Milicic, and Zach Randolph to build for the future. If we have to go the rebuilding route (as it looks like that is the best way to go), this deal would be the perfect scenario.


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## Brian.

I would like to have wallace on the pistons. I don't see a whole lot of blazers games but from what I have seen he plays hard and with a lot of emotion. I wouldn't be willing to part with Darko though or Wallace or Billups for that matter.


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## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>Brian</b>!
> I would like to have wallace on the pistons. I don't see a whole lot of blazers games but from what I have seen he plays hard and with a lot of emotion. I wouldn't be willing to part with Darko though or Wallace or Billups for that matter.


well then don't plan on getting him this year, as they're not gonna trade him for crappola.


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## arenas809

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> 
> well then don't plan on getting him this year, as they're not gonna trade him for crappola.


Exactly...

What do you think, you're gona get Sheed for Hubert Davis and a Detroit Lion to be named later?


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## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>arenas809</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly...
> 
> What do you think, you're gona get Sheed for Hubert Davis and a Detroit Lion to be named later?


well, Joey Harrington is a nice guy...


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## Brian.

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> 
> well then don't plan on getting him this year, as they're not gonna trade him for crappola.


I agree with you I don't expect him to become a piston either other than Okur we don't have much to offer you guys. I could see the pistons parting with rip but you already have wesley person and they are pretty much the same player.


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## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>Brian</b>!
> 
> 
> I agree with you I don't expect him to become a piston either other than Okur we don't have much to offer you guys. I could see the pistons parting with rip but you already have wesley person and they are pretty much the same player.


well, rip is younger, and probably a little better defensively..but i see what yer saying.


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## Kmurph

> It's looking more like a trade is in the works for Rasheed Wallace. Here's what being said.
> A local station (unnamed)said they have info from the Toronto Star that Wallace is coming to Detroit
> The Portland commentator (Mike Rice) after yesterdays game said Nash (Portland GM) is in Detroit discussing a trade with Joe.
> Radio 910AM in Portland says the deal includes Wallace/Woods (or Outlaw choice) for Milicic, Davis, Campbell and Sura...Joe is trying to include Memo instead of Darko (somehow).



For what it is worth, this was on the DET ESPN message boards tonight. Good luck Joe, trying to get POR to take Okur instead of Sheed. Not unless POR has another way to net enough capspace to go over the MLE to sign him. Also, I can't believe that NAsh would say yes to throwing in Qyntel and\or Outlaw, just to get Okur. For Darko?....yeah I'd do it....but not for Okur, especially with his present contract situation (unrestricted free agency). Anyway, hope POR can pull a deal for Darko off, make me feel better about our rebuilding efforts.


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## hasoos

*If Milicic is as good as advertised*

Then why isn't he playing any. The guy is getting very few minutes, if any. I am not saying he won't be good, but I am wondering about how good he will be. 2 of the other top 3 draft picks are already producing big. Why isn't he at least getting a few minutes of play?


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## Ed O

*Re: If Milicic is as good as advertised*



> Originally posted by <b>hasoos</b>!
> Then why isn't he playing any. The guy is getting very few minutes, if any. I am not saying he won't be good, but I am wondering about how good he will be. 2 of the other top 3 draft picks are already producing big. Why isn't he at least getting a few minutes of play?


He's two years younger than ZR was in his first year in the NBA and Zach barely played as a rookie.

If Darko were on a bad team and not playing (like Tskitishvili last year), I think it would mean something. With an old-school coach like Brown with a very good Pistons team, I don't think Darko's lack of playing time is too big of a mark against him at this point.

Ed O.


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## barfo

*Re: If Milicic is as good as advertised*



> Originally posted by <b>hasoos</b>!
> Then why isn't he playing any. The guy is getting very few minutes, if any. I am not saying he won't be good, but I am wondering about how good he will be. 2 of the other top 3 draft picks are already producing big. Why isn't he at least getting a few minutes of play?


Same reason Outlaw isn't getting any minutes. 

Darko (and Outlaw) might be a terrific player in 2010. Trading Sheed for him today would make 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009 pretty grim. I'm not excited about waiting for Darko to mature. I don't have that much patience. 

barfo


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## MLKG

Hey, I'm not opposed to Rasheed Wallace as a Piston, but if a deal happens the center piece will be Mehmet Okur, not Darko.

The entire purpose of the Pistons off season this year was to trade for expiring contracts to get far enough under the cap to keep Okur in the event that he has a Gilbert Arenas like second season. Because of this Detroit will have 8-9 million to give to a free agent next year. The money is supposed to be for Okur, but Detroit will likely try to lure Rasheed Wallace before giving it to Memo. 

So a trade of Wallace for Okur, Sura, Williamson, Davis + Milwaukee's 1st round pick + cash would send Wallace to Detroit 6 months ahead of schedule and give them his Bird rights making it easier to sign him than it would be in the summer. In return Portland gets the restricted free agent rights to Okur plus Sura and Davis's expiring contracts, which combined with Person's expiring deal, gives Portland way more than enough to keep Okur next year. Portland also gets Milwaukee's 1st rounder next year, which coupled with there own and Memphis's, could possibly give them 3 of the top 15 picks next year. 

Yeah, Detroit probably gets the better end of this trade, but Portland cannot honestly expect to get equal value out of a Rasheed Wallace trade. They know he isn't going to be back next year, which gives the other team the leverage. They know they are loosing Rasheed, so anything they get in return for him will be a bonus. And Mehmet Okur has the potential to essentially be a bigger version of Sheed.

Darko has about as much chance of being in on this deal as Zach Randolph does. It's not gonna happen. Why would Detroit trade a guy like this for someone they could end up getting over the summer anyway? It would basically undermine everything Joe Dumars has done so far. The entire success of Dumars as a GM has been predicated on his ability to resist making the quick-fix win-now trade at the expense of the future. And you have to understand one thing, Dumars is very high on Darko and realizes that he will be in Detroit a lot longer than Larry Brown will. Larry Brown also realizes that he just a piece of the puzzle Joe D. is putting together and, while his opinion is valued, is in no position to demand any trades. Besides, any trade for Rasheed Wallace is going to strip Detroit's bench dry. They would not be a lock for the Eastern Conference by any means.

If you can't accept the fact that Darko will NOT be a Blazer, then just consider the deal dead in the water and move on.


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## dkap

> They know he (Rasheed) isn't going to be back next year


Very dangerous and unsupportable assumption to base all that virtual ink on.

Dan


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Hey, I'm not opposed to Rasheed Wallace as a Piston, but if a deal happens the center piece will be Mehmet Okur, not Darko.
> 
> The entire purpose of the Pistons off season this year was to trade for expiring contracts to get far enough under the cap to keep Okur in the event that he has a Gilbert Arenas like second season. Because of this Detroit will have 8-9 million to give to a free agent next year. The money is supposed to be for Okur, but Detroit will likely try to lure Rasheed Wallace before giving it to Memo.
> 
> So a trade of Wallace for Okur, Sura, Williamson, Davis + Milwaukee's 1st round pick + cash would send Wallace to Detroit 6 months ahead of schedule and give them his Bird rights making it easier to sign him than it would be in the summer. In return Portland gets the restricted free agent rights to Okur plus Sura and Davis's expiring contracts, which combined with Person's expiring deal, gives Portland way more than enough to keep Okur next year. Portland also gets Milwaukee's 1st rounder next year, which coupled with there own and Memphis's, could possibly give them 3 of the top 15 picks next year.
> 
> Yeah, Detroit probably gets the better end of this trade, but Portland cannot honestly expect to get equal value out of a Rasheed Wallace trade. They know he isn't going to be back next year, which gives the other team the leverage. They know they are loosing Rasheed, so anything they get in return for him will be a bonus. And Mehmet Okur has the potential to essentially be a bigger version of Sheed.
> 
> Darko has about as much chance of being in on this deal as Zach Randolph does. It's not gonna happen. Why would Detroit trade a guy like this for someone they could end up getting over the summer anyway? It would basically undermine everything Joe Dumars has done so far. The entire success of Dumars as a GM has been predicated on his ability to resist making the quick-fix win-now trade at the expense of the future. And you have to understand one thing, Dumars is very high on Darko and realizes that he will be in Detroit a lot longer than Larry Brown will. Larry Brown also realizes that he just a piece of the puzzle Joe D. is putting together and, while his opinion is valued, is in no position to demand any trades. Besides, any trade for Rasheed Wallace is going to strip Detroit's bench dry. They would not be a lock for the Eastern Conference by any means.
> 
> If you can't accept the fact that Darko will NOT be a Blazer, then just consider the deal dead in the water and move on.


:clap:


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## Ed O

..


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## DariusMiles23

There is one thing you are forgetting.

.
..
...
....
...
..
.

BIRD RIGHTS! 

They allow a team that has a player like Sheed, who has been under contract for 3 years to GO OVER THE CAP to resign him. So in other words you could just lock him up for like 3 more years. Then maybe "Delfino" will be a good player.


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## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> So a trade of Wallace for Okur, Sura, Williamson, Davis + Milwaukee's 1st round pick + cash would send Wallace to Detroit 6 months ahead of schedule and give them his Bird rights making it easier to sign him than it would be in the summer. In return Portland gets the restricted free agent rights to Okur plus Sura and Davis's expiring contracts, which combined with Person's expiring deal, gives Portland way more than enough to keep Okur next year. Portland also gets Milwaukee's 1st rounder next year, which coupled with there own and Memphis's, could possibly give them 3 of the top 15 picks next year.


Sure, we'll take assorted crap for our best player, but they have to be boy scouts. Have any of those players ever spit on the sidewalk or said the 'f' word? If so, you can just forget about this deal.



> If you can't accept the fact that Darko will NOT be a Blazer, then just consider the deal dead in the water and move on.


Ok by me.

barfo


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>barfo</b>!
> 
> 
> Sure, we'll take assorted crap for our best player, but they have to be boy scouts. Have any of those players ever spit on the sidewalk or said the 'f' word? If so, you can just forget about this deal.


I don't know if I would call that assorted crap. And besides, you gave away Bonzi Wells for much worse.


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## HOWIE

_General manager Joe Dumars, who selected Darko Milicic instead of Carmelo Anthony, says not to panic. 

"You make changes not because of what may or may not happen,'' Dumars said. "You look at the situation at the time. Look, I've said it before and I will say it again -- we had maxed out with the team we had." 

*The Pistons have been inconsistent, Brown has shown to be impatient and Milicic has been a complete bust.* 

Following practice on Sunday, Brown and Dumars met. It has been reported that *Brown would like to make some kind of roster move and has asked Dumars to investigate the possibility of acquiring Wallace.*_

Interesting that Brown and Dumars seem to be on different pages. I think that the trades helps both team in what they are doing, but I also understand what Dumars is saying. Dumars also needs to remember that the core that they have is not all a bunch of kids either. I think that Brown is looking at Rasheed's talent and what adding him to the mix in Detroit would mean. Maybe Brown is looking at Rasheed as his new Iverson project. Maybe Rasheed would turn it up a notch for Larry Brown.

Guess we will all find out sometime before the deadline. 



Toronto Sun report


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> EXPECIALLY for a guy like Rasheed Wallace. He is absolutely everything the Piston's team is NOT about. He would not get along with the guys in Detroit, they simply wouldn't put up with his crap, and he would be gone next season.
> ...
> I mean seriously. Detroit is already one of the front runners to get Rasheed in free agency next year anyway, why would they trade their player of the future for him now?


Way to stay consistent, there, within the same post.

"There's no way the Pistons would want Wallace! He's everything the Pistons are NOT about. He wouldn't fit in at all!

Oh, but they're totally the front-runners to sign this guy that they're TOTALLY NOT about. He wouldn't fit in, they wouldn't put up with his crap, but they're so gonna sign him as a free agent!"


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## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> I don't know if I would call that assorted crap.


Nor do I know whether you would call that assorted crap. It's a mystery for the ages. 1000 years from now, someone will write a dissertation on the subject '_Mike luvs KG_ and the BBB.net proposed Wallace/Darko trade: assorted crap or not?'. 


> And besides, you gave away Bonzi Wells for much worse.


Hey, that wasn't me! I may look like John Nash, in that I'm an old white guy, but I assure you, I didn't do it! NOT MY FAULT!

barfo


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Hey, I'm not opposed to Rasheed Wallace as a Piston, but if a deal happens the center piece will be Mehmet Okur, not Darko.
> 
> The entire purpose of the Pistons off season this year was to trade for expiring contracts to get far enough under the cap to keep Okur in the event that he has a Gilbert Arenas like second season. Because of this Detroit will have 8-9 million to give to a free agent next year. The money is supposed to be for Okur, but Detroit will likely try to lure Rasheed Wallace before giving it to Memo.


What you don't seem to understand is that this deal could allow Detroit to do *both*. Have Rasheed Wallace *and* re-sign Okur.

Since salaries have to match, Detroit would be dealing $17 million in salaries to match Wallace's salary.

In the coming off-season, there's no way in hell Wallace can get anything like his current $17 million salary from anyone. Detroit can re-sign Wallace to a more modest $8-9 million deal, save $8-9 million from last year's payroll which they can then offer to Okur and hold onto him, too.

By giving up a guy who *could* be good for them after some of this core starts declining, they could lock up Okur *and* a prime Rasheed Wallace and challenge for the NBA championship for some years...something they simply cannot do without Rasheed Wallace. No player on Detroit can defend the top Western big men man-on-man...'Sheed can. And unless someone can play legitimate man defense on premier big men, a team has no chance to beat whoever comes out of the West in a seven game series.

That's why Brown and Dumars consider this deal.


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## dkap

> "You make changes not because of what may or may not happen,'' Dumars said. "You look at the situation at the time. Look, I've said it before and I will say it again -- we had maxed out with the team we had."
> 
> ...
> 
> "This is not the time to jump off the bandwagon," Dumars said. "If you believed in what we've done the past two or three years then you should continue to believe. The core of that team is still here and we have a tremendously bright future. This is no time to jump off. Just hang in there like we have. This will work itself out."


Can anyone figure out what all that means? The first seems like a total contradiction -- with itself and with the second quote. Is he saying the teams that won 50 games each of the previous two seasons had maxed out? Or that the current team has? If the previous teams maxed out and required changes, then why should believing in what those previous teams did now lead to believing in the current team? Why not bail out on that, too? And does looking at the situation at the time mean making changes or not? And exactly what may or may not happen?

 

Dan


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> That's why Brown and Dumars consider this deal.


I think Dumars is obviously considering the deal, just not with Darko involved. He cannot trade Darko for anything less than a superstar, because that's what most Detroit fans are under the assumption that Darko will become. Trading him for Rasheed, will make everyone wonder why he just didn't pick Carmelo and make everyone wonder if Dumars even knows what he is doing.


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## dkap

> I think Dumars is obviously considering the deal, just not with Darko involved. He cannot trade Darko for anything less than a superstar, because that's what most Detroit fans are under the assumption that Darko will become. Trading him for Rasheed, will make everyone wonder why he just didn't pick Carmelo and make everyone wonder if Dumars even knows what he is doing.


If Joe pulls off such a deal, it will mean Natterpeeks doesn't know what they're doing. Oh wait, we've already pretty much decided that's the case. Oh well. Let's bend over and ship out Rasheed for notta.

Dan


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> Way to stay consistent, there, within the same post.
> 
> "There's no way the Pistons would want Wallace! He's everything the Pistons are NOT about. He wouldn't fit in at all!
> 
> Oh, but they're totally the front-runners to sign this guy that they're TOTALLY NOT about. He wouldn't fit in, they wouldn't put up with his crap, but they're so gonna sign him as a free agent!"


I never ever said Detroit doesn't want him, but right now he IS everything they are not about, hell he's everything EVERY team is not about. Trading a popular figure like Darko for him would make it even harder for him to ever be accepted in Detroit.

Cap and situation wise, they also ARE a front runner for him next summer. The hope is that a change of scenery will do him good and he is much more likely to be accepted by the fans and the team by coming through free agency than by coming in a trade for one of the teams most popular players.

Either way he is risk. Nobody doubts his talent, but when you have a team with as good of chemistry as Detroit has, you have to be wary of guys like Rasheed Wallace.

Maybe I exaggerated my point a bit.



> By giving up a guy who could be good for them after some of this core starts declining, they could lock up Okur and a prime Rasheed Wallace and challenge for the NBA championship for some years...something they simply cannot do without Rasheed Wallace. No player on Detroit can defend the top Western big men man-on-man...'Sheed can. And unless someone can play legitimate man defense on premier big men, a team has no chance to beat whoever comes out of the West in a seven game series.


Well, Detroit has another Wallace who does as good a job as any. Detroit doesn't need Sheed for his defense.

And besides, I think a lineup of Sheed, Ben, and Darko is more exciting than Sheed, Ben, and Memo.

I also think that a lot of Blazers fans are underestimating Memo's game. He's a better rebounder than Sheed and just as good a 3-point shooter, he's coming along nicely as a post player too.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>dkap</b>!
> 
> Can anyone figure out what all that means?


The first quote was referencing the criticism for trading away veterans Cliff Robinson and Michael Curry and letting Jon Barry go. Basically Joe said he felt that team had maxed out it's potential and some changes needed to be made, but also said the core of the team was till in tact and the moves are all a part of getting better.

I really have no idea why that was in the article. I don't think they are even recent quotes.


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## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Detroit doesn't need Sheed for his defense.


Then it probably doesn't need Sheed.



> And besides, I think a lineup of Sheed, Ben, and Darko is more exciting than Sheed, Ben, and Memo.


Who doesn't?

barfo


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## dkap

> I don't think they are even recent quotes.


That quite possibly sums up the worth of this rumor. Must be the ol' year end recycling of trade rumors and quotes.  

Dan


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> Well, Detroit has another Wallace who does as good a job as any. Detroit doesn't need Sheed for his defense.


Ben Wallace is undersized and not as good a man defender as Wallace. He's a superior shot-blocker, but Ben Wallace is not going to be rejecting players like Duncan and Webber enough, if at all, to limit them.

Rasheed Wallace, meanwhile, has limited Duncan to 10 points on several occasions and often holds him well under his average. Same for Webber and other top power forwards. He's even defended Shaq as well as anyone can. There's no way Ben Wallace can handle Shaq. Without a guy who can handle such players, no Eastern team has a chance in hell to win a Finals.

Plus Rasheed is a much more dangerous offensive player than Ben. Or Mehmet Okur.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> He cannot trade Darko for anything less than a superstar, because that's what most Detroit fans are under the assumption that Darko will become.


A player who *might* have superstar potential can't be traded for a superstar. A superstar is a sure thing, a Milicic is simply a hope.

Wallace is far better, right now, than Milicic. It's possible that Milicic will one day be better, but that's only if he pans out, which is no sure thing at all.

Detroit reaps proven talent, Portland gets risk and possible reward. That makes it a reasonable exchange. Maybe it won't happen, but it's not an unreasonable deal.

If Detroit won a title with Wallace, I don't think anyone would question the deal. Wallace gives Detroit a title hope *now* while they still have a stacked core and a veteran coach.

By the time Milicic blooms, if he does, there's a decent chance Brown will have wandered off (based on his track record) and players like Ben Wallace and Chauncy Billups will have seen their best days and be on the decline.

I can completely understand Dumars holding onto Milicic, but I don't think it would be a crazy deal if Milicic was dealt for Rasheed Wallace. Especially since it would also be an implicit salary dump, allowing them to keep Okur *too*.


----------



## Hibachi!

Agreed


----------



## Storyteller

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> Cap and situation wise, they also ARE a front runner for him next summer. The hope is that a change of scenery will do him good and he is much more likely to be accepted by the fans and the team by coming through free agency than by coming in a trade for one of the teams most popular players.


Actually, this isn't true from a cap perspective. Cap expert Dan Rosenbaum (NCBullsFan) predicts the cap to be $44.9 million next year, although he admits it could be as low as $43.0 or as high as $46.7. Let's assume $45 million for the sake of analysis here.

Right now, the Pistons have $37.7 million committed to 8 players. Then add in the rights to Delfino and you are at $38.6 million. If Milwaukee's pick doesn't end up in the top 15, it goes to Detroit and that's another $1 million. If they renounced the rights to Okur, Rebraca, Sura and all their other FA's, they'd have $6.4 million in cap room (or $5.4 million if they get Milwaukee's pick). But the MLE and the LLE also count against the cap, and that puts them over the cap.

It would take a salary cap of $46.3 million or so (and Milwaukee keeping their own draft pick) to give the Pistons room under the cap. In this case, they would have about $6.9 million in cap room (they lose $770,000 in cap room by only having 9 players). They would not, however, hold any matching rights to Rebraca or Okur. They would also lose both their MLE and their LLE.

Otherwise, if they make no changes, the most that the Pistons can in all likelihood offer Rasheed - or any other FA from another team - is the MLE. That puts them on the same page as nearly every other team in the league, far behind the likes of Denver and Utah (who will have lots of cap room next summer).


----------



## Siouxperior

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> 
> blah blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah blah blah blah blah
> blah blah blah! blah, Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah! And blah
> blah blah blah!!!


 ......Wow, you don't say?


----------



## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> A player who *might* have superstar potential can't be traded for a superstar. A superstar is a sure thing, a Milicic is simply a hope.
> 
> Wallace is far better, right now, than Milicic. It's possible that Milicic will one day be better, but that's only if he pans out, which is no sure thing at all.
> 
> Detroit reaps proven talent, Portland gets risk and possible reward. That makes it a reasonable exchange. Maybe it won't happen, but it's not an unreasonable deal.
> 
> If Detroit won a title with Wallace, I don't think anyone would question the deal. Wallace gives Detroit a title hope *now* while they still have a stacked core and a veteran coach.
> 
> By the time Milicic blooms, if he does, there's a decent chance Brown will have wandered off (based on his track record) and players like Ben Wallace and Chauncy Billups will have seen their best days and be on the decline.
> 
> I can completely understand Dumars holding onto Milicic, but I don't think it would be a crazy deal if Milicic was dealt for Rasheed Wallace. Especially since it would also be an implicit salary dump, allowing them to keep Okur *too*.


Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see the Pistons winning the championship with Rasheed Wallace. I don't see him as a player that can put us over the hump like many of you feel he can. I just don't a player of Rasheed Wallace's caliber being able to help us win a championship now. I also understand Darko is a crapshoot and I'd rather take my chance on Darko becoming a good player to great player in 4 years than having a couple good years out of Sheed. Darko is only 18 and has the potential to do some good things for this franchise for 10+ years, while Rasheed only has a couple good years left in him, at least IMO. I do agree that if a trade for Rasheed turned into a championship than it would be worth it, but like I said earlier, I just don't see Sheed putting us over the top like that.

In 4 years I think Darko is going to become an impact player and by that time our core players Memo (a hopefully re-signed Memo), Rip, Billups, Prince, and Delfino should all be entering their primes or still in their primes. Add to that Ben Wallace, who keeps himslef in shape on par with just about anyone in the league, Andreas Gliniadakis, a 7-footer who I've heard from various sources could and probaly would be a lotto pick this year, and who knows what Joe D. can pull from under his sleeves working with multiple first rounders he has acquired over the past few years. I'd rather take my chance on Darko.

As for Portland getting risk and possible reward, what's wrong with getting Memo and 1st rounders? Memo is only 24 and has a hell of an upside himself. I'm sorry if I step on any toes, but the potential Darko possesses is too much to give up for a player like Rasheed Wallace. :twocents:


----------



## mook

if I'm Detroit, I probably do this deal. championship windows can be shockingly short for some teams, especially if you don't have a top 5 player to help carry you. we saw it happen to us in 2000. you don't want to be another New Jersey or (arguably) Sacramento, sniffing an opening only to see it close in a year or two. 

Sheed was the best player on that 2000 contending team, and he'd probably be the best player on the Pistons again. yep, even better than Ben.

he may be a headcase, but he's had a long, long track record of being the best player on successful teams. he's the Anti-Abdul Rahim--a guy who doesn't put up jaw-dropping numbers, but consistently has the highest +/- point ratio (team performance while in and out of the game) of most teams he's been on. 

the real beauty of a Wallace/Wallace tandem is that they compliment each other perfectly. imagine Duncan having his usual struggles trying to score over Sheed in the post coupled with Ben's amazing weakside shot blocking. Detroit would force every playoff team to change the way they go about scoring. 

the other possility is that Darko becomes a top 5 player and makes this argument pointless. 

by keeping Darko, you gamble that he can open a longer championship window 5 years down the road. by trading him for Wallace, you are buying a shorter championship window right now.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> As for Portland getting risk and possible reward, what's wrong with getting Memo and 1st rounders? Memo is only 24 and has a hell of an upside himself.


I like Mehmet. A LOT. But the fact is that Portland almost certainly won't be in a cap position to match a larger-than-MLE offer to Okur this summer, and because of that he probably isn't enough to be the cornerstone in a deal.

Mehmet + Delfino + expiring contracts + picks for Rasheed, if Portland can clear out space for this summer (move Dale Davis, or Ruben Patterson, or Derek Anderson, or even move Damon for (the expiring contract of) Charlie Ward + value) would be palatable to me. 

Because of the lack of visibility to other moves Portland might make, though, I have to assume we won't have the ability to re-sign Mehmet and because of that I don't find the deal acceptable at this point.

Ed O.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>So Cal Blazer Fan</b>!
> 
> Actually, this isn't true from a cap perspective.


Thanks for posting this summary, SCBF. I started a similar post last night but didn't have the time to do it as thoroughly as necessary.

Ed O.


----------



## Trader Ed

I still like these teams options for trading... getting Darko and ? for Sheed is very compelling

POTENTIAL


On the Pistons side of it competing for your 3rd title in the next few years would be well worth it...


----------



## Kmurph

Good post Wanker....

I think this is a common theme in most professional sports...Taking the chance when your "championship" window is open, Darko may become a great player down the raod, but it certainly does not guarantee that he will lead DET to an NBA title by any means. IF....IF...you feel you have a chance to play for a championship, and for the EC, this is more reachable than it is in the WC, then you SHOULD do whatever is in your power to get your team there. I think DET is close, they are a very good player away from challenging for the EC title. IF they could make a trade without sacrificing any of their CURRENT core players, to enhance their chance to represent the EC in the finals, then they would be fools no to do so. The most important thing is GETTING to the finals! So if that means you have to sacrifice part of your future (and really DET is sitting pretty well, it isn't like they are stripping the cupboard bare...Delfino, MIL #1, re-signing Okur) in Darko to PLAY for a championship today, then you don't even think twice about it. Even IF...and it is still a big IF IMO, Darko becomes a HOF player, there is NO GUARANTEE that DET could win a title with him.

I think this a cause of why MANY teams in professional sports NEVER make it to the big game, they let the HOPE of the future, cloud the REALITY of the present. DET should be asking themselves one thing: Does adding Rasheed Wallace significantly enhance our chances of WINNING the EC? Does it give DET a signiifcant advantage over our nearest competitors? I think the answer to this is Yes on both counts, if you think the answer is no, then don't do the trade. But you got to GET to the finals before you can have a chance of WINNING the title. Acquiring Sheed IMO, will allow DET to get to the FINALS, and that is 95%+ of the challenge IMO, just getting there.


----------



## Trader Ed

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> ...Mehmet + Delfino + expiring contracts + picks for Rasheed...


OK Ed.... who is Delfino? I do not see him on their roster. Is he a pick they have the rights to?


----------



## talman

Anyone else have serious reservations about Darko's ability to be little more than an average player in the NBA? I wasn't sold on him on draft day and am still not...


----------



## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>Trader Bob</b>!
> 
> 
> OK Ed.... who is Delfino? I do not see him on their roster. Is he a pick they have the rights to?


Our second first round pick this year. He's from Argentina and has been compared to Manu Ginobli although that could be because of where he's from.

Player Profile


----------



## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> I just don't a player of Rasheed Wallace's caliber being able to help us win a championship now.... Darko is only 18 and has the potential to do some good things for this franchise for 10+ years, while Rasheed only has a couple good years left in him, at least IMO.


Most NBA fans (including me) have barely seen Darko, but let's assume that he's a talent that could pry Wallace from the Blazers. Since many NBA talent evaluators point to the years 28-32 as being the prime years of talent + skill for a player, I'm not exactly sure why you only feel Wallace (at 29) has only two good years left. He's never suffered a bad injury or suffered from anything constantly flaring up like bad back. I think it's quite likely that he has 4-5 years left at around the same level he's playing now. 

As it's been stated before in these discussions... unless the Pistons acquire some more expiring contracts, they will likely lose Okur without compensation this offseason. From Joe D's perspective, he may be choosing between a Piston's future with Darko or one with Sheed and Okur... which of those two possible futures puts them closer to a championship?

STOMP


----------



## mook

> Originally posted by <b>talman</b>!
> Anyone else have serious reservations about Darko's ability to be little more than an average player in the NBA? I wasn't sold on him on draft day and am still not...


i seem to remember the hype on him was that he'd be ready to start contributing almost immediately to the Pistons, unlike Carmello, who supposedly needed more time to refine his skills. 

seems like just the opposite happened. 

in a way, this deal is a souped up version of Jermaine O'Neal for Dale Davis. Indiana took a huge risk on Jerm, giving up a proven defensive veteran big man. they didn't mind, though, because they weren't a contender anymore and they knew it. 

we thought we weren't giving up much, but that's always the problem when you gamble wrong on "upside." Dale was supposed to be the one big man we were away from winning it all. 

Darko may have more upside than Jermaine, at least if you go by where they were taken in the draft. however, we're taking an even bigger risk than Indiana did. if we don't trade him, we'd most likely sign Sheed, sewing up an outstanding complimentary player to Zach for at least three more years. 

without Sheed, and if Darko doesn't realize any of his upside pretty damned quick, Portland is going to be a terrible, terrible team. we'll be the Clippers, only our Elton Brand doesn't play defense. Zach's FG% will plummet as teams focus entirely on stopping him. Dale and Stepania suddenly become important cogs in our offense. *shudder* Stoudamire jacks up 18 shots a night. 

Indiana never faced such risks when they dealt Dale, so it's probably only fair that they didn't get rewarded with a former top 3 draft pick.


----------



## MLKG

I think what a lot of people don't understand is Detroit hasn't entered it's championship window. Joe Dumars has built the team so they will really be entering their window in 2 or 3 years. They are a very young team and still waiting on key pieces like Darko and Carlos Delfino to turn them into legit contenders. Also what I think some people fail to see, is the Pistons don't view Darko as a crapshoot or as a maybe, they are convinced he will be a great player by what they have seen from in practice, he just needs a little time to adjust to the league, much like O'Neal and Randolph did.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> I think what a lot of people don't understand is Detroit hasn't entered it's championship window. Joe Dumars has built the team so they will really be entering their window in 2 or 3 years. They are a very young team and still waiting on key pieces like Darko and Carlos Delfino to turn them into legit contenders.


Atkins: 29
Billups: 27
Campbell: 35
Davis: 33
Fowlkes: 27
Hamilton: 25
Hunter: 33
Milicic: 18
Okur: 24
Prince: 23
Rebraca: 31
Sura: 30
Wallace: 29
Williamson: 30

Sorry... I just don't see a "very young team".

A team that's entering its peak? Sure... Billups is 27, Hamilton's 25, Prince is 23 and Wallace still has a couple of years before his athleticism (which he relies on far more than most NBA players do) starts to fade.

I don't see the team being significantly better 2 or 3 years from now unless Darko pans out... and even then, Okur will probably be gone and Ben's excellent contract is up.

The Piston's window is not an incredibly tight (short-term) one, but it would open wider by adding Rasheed (and keeping Mehmet) and it might be closed with the current cast of characters by the time Darko is the prime-time player he probably will be.

Ed O.


----------



## Hibachi!

In my opinion.... i PERSONALLY think that the Blazers would make out better in this trade and heres why... Darco going to the Blazers OBVIOUSLY isnt gonna make them a championship team this year, or even next year, however.... Rasheed isnt gonna make the Pistons a championship team either... Rasheed is a little past his prime, hes not as good as he used to be, at least he hasnt showed it... Darco hasnt even reached his prime not even close he has so much longer... Rasheeds contract runs out at the end of the year, meaning it could be a Gary Payton thing where he just leaves... the Blazers are trying to revamp the team, well heres a good start, they got rid of Bonzi, now theyre getting rid of Rasheed, so they get younger, get rid of their most problematic player, and Milicic and Randolph can be the future of the Blazer team...i mean the Blazers are still going to make the playoffs even without Rasheed, but they werent gonna win a championship with them anywayz, but now they could have something to look forward too... thats why on paper technically it looks not so smart, but really it is...i think its dumb for the Pistons to do this imo... unless they pick up say a Kobe Bryant, no one in the east is going to win... and actually, the East needs a damn big man other than Jermaine O'Neal...but certainly the Pistons become a better team right now, but not a championship team, so whats the point?


----------



## Dan

As the team stands now, they should make the playoffs. But If Rasheed is traded off the team, (unless the Grizz, Nuggets, Jazz, Rockets, Warriors and the Sonics all start losing a lot more of their games) they won't sniff the the playoffs.


----------



## unstandable

The Pistons starting five averages 25.6 years old, which is younger than the starting fives of all the other top contending teams (LA, Sacto, SA, Minny, Dallas, NJ, Indy, and NO). Their core for the future is Billups (27), Hamilton (25), Prince (23), Wallace (29), Okur (24), Darko (18), and Delfino (21). Assuming Darko isn't ready until his third season, of that core only Wallace will be over 30.

If the Pistons thought they were one player away now, they would have just drafted Carmelo rather than Darko. So I don't think they will trade Darko now for Rasheed on the rationale that they just need one player to get them over the top and that by the time Darko develops it will be too late. Dumars doesn't just want to get to the Finals, he wants to win the championship, so he is willing to be patient with Darko (again, if the goal was just to get to the Finals, they would have drafted Carmelo).

However, if the deal was for Okur rather than Darko, the Pistons would probably consider doing it.


----------



## Hibachi!

I think Okur is a strong possibility


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>unstandable</b>!
> 
> If the Pistons thought they were one player away now, they would have just drafted Carmelo rather than Darko.


That doesn't follow at all. The Pistons may well be one *big man* away. If so, Carmelo Anthony wouldn't have done them any good.

It's not like all players are exactly the same, so since they didn't get Anthony, clearly they don't feel they are one player away. Anthony would not have significantly improved their perimeter scoring.

Wallace would significantly improve their inside defense (which is incredibly important to win a title) and significantly improve their inside offense.

Not drafting Anthony in no way invalidates that the Pistons might not be one Rasheed Wallace away. (A quadruple negative [counting the "in-"]...that might be my first ever!)


----------



## GOD

> I think Okur is a strong possibility


I don't think Okur is a possibility since the Blazers would not be able to resign him. They will not trade sheed for a player that will only be with them for the remainder of this year. Okur does not come with bird rights, so the most the blazers could offer him to resign would be the MLE. He will most likely go for 6-7 mil, or about 1.5-2.5 mil more then the what the MLE will be. 

Talent wise, I like Okur but not for just a few months.


----------



## unstandable

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> That doesn't follow at all. The Pistons may well be one *big man* away. If so, Carmelo Anthony wouldn't have done them any good.


That's true. The Pistons think they need a dominant big man on offense to win a championship, but Rasheed's not that either (just like Carmelo isn't), given how much he plays on the perimeter.

Do you think the Pistons could beat the Lakers, Kings, or Spurs with Rasheed on their team? I don't.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>unstandable</b>!
> 
> 
> That's true. The Pistons think they need a dominant big man on offense to win a championship, but Rasheed's not that either (just like Carmelo isn't), given how much he plays on the perimeter.
> 
> Do you think the Pistons could beat the Lakers, Kings, or Spurs with Rasheed on their team? I don't.


they stand a helluva lot better chance with him, than they do without him.


----------



## unstandable

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> 
> they stand a helluva lot better chance with him, than they do without him.


Of course, but the question is whether they think they could have an even better chance in a few years if they keep Darko.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>unstandable</b>!
> 
> 
> Of course, but the question is whether they think they could have an even better chance in a few years if they keep Darko.


yep..but sometimes, if you are smart with your team, you give up a little future for the now...as long as you don't price yourself out of the free agent market.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>unstandable</b>!
> 
> 
> That's true. The Pistons think they need a dominant big man on offense to win a championship, but Rasheed's not that either (just like Carmelo isn't), given how much he plays on the perimeter.
> 
> Do you think the Pistons could beat the Lakers, Kings, or Spurs with Rasheed on their team? I don't.


I definitely think they could beat the Spurs with Wallace. Wallace has limited Duncan quite a few times. If Wallace could keep Duncan from dominating, the rest of the Pistons match-up quite well with the rest of the Spurs.

Likewise, the Kings would be well within Detroit's realm if Wallace could handle Webber without needing double-team help (and he can and has).

The Lakers are a dicier proposition. Wallace would need double-team help against Shaq. But R. Wallace and B. Wallace together could do a decent job against Shaq. Bring in Okur, as part of a big lineup, to defend Malone and the Pistons at least have a chance, whereas they have none without R. Wallace.

Yes, Milicic *might* give the Pistons a better chance in the future. If he pans out. However, Ben Wallace will likely be on the decline. If Detroit can't drop salary this season, they'll likely lose Okur (the Wallace deal would also open up space to re-sign Okur). Maybe Milicic will be enough to overcome that, maybe not.

I'd bet Larry Brown would rather go for the sure championship contention now (and the next few years) rather than hope that championship contention will still open up when Milicic is ready.


----------



## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> 
> 
> Most NBA fans (including me) have barely seen Darko, but let's assume that he's a talent that could pry Wallace from the Blazers. Since many NBA talent evaluators point to the years 28-32 as being the prime years of talent + skill for a player, I'm not exactly sure why you only feel Wallace (at 29) has only two good years left. He's never suffered a bad injury or suffered from anything constantly flaring up like bad back. I think it's quite likely that he has 4-5 years left at around the same level he's playing now.


By saying a couple of years, I didn't literally mean two years. Maybe it's because of Randolph or because of lack of motivation, but Rasheed's game is going down (for lack of a better term). He's still an elite player, but not one that I think will deliver us a championship, so therefore I wouldn't do the trade.




> As it's been stated before in these discussions... unless the Pistons acquire some more expiring contracts, they will likely lose Okur without compensation this offseason. From Joe D's perspective, he may be choosing between a Piston's future with Darko or one with Sheed and Okur... which of those two possible futures puts them closer to a championship?
> 
> STOMP


First off, Memo is not even a lock to re-sign with us even if we have the cap room. Him and LB have been bumping heads as of late and he seems to be getting on Memo the most of anyone on the team, at least from a fan's perspective. Second, Rasheed is also not a lock to re-sign with us either, so why give up Darko (who Joe D. and many others around the league are very high on; high enough to compare him to LeBron) when we more than likely will have him for 10+ years for Rasheed, who may only be around 4-5 years and quite possibly one. The risk is too great from our side. Since I think our best shot(s) at a championship will come in a couple of years I think the better question is would I rather have Darko with 3 or 4 years under his belt or an aging Rasheed Wallace and Memo? It's also quite possible that we can still retain Memo this off-season especially if we trade Corliss or Chucky Atkins. So that would leave us with Memo and Darko...


----------



## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> 
> I'd bet Larry Brown would rather go for the sure championship contention now (and the next few years) rather than hope that championship contention will still open up when Milicic is ready.


Larry Brown might, but Joe D. wouldn't. Like I said I just don't feel we would have a shot at the championship even with Rasheed on our team.


----------



## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> 
> 
> yep..but sometimes, if you are smart with your team, you give up a little future for the now...as long as you don't price yourself out of the free agent market.


Milicic is more than a little future, he is the future... We haven't had a dominating player since Grant Hill and we're not going to trade a potentially dominating player for a trip to the finals (Rasheed).


----------



## HOWIE

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> 
> Milicic is more than a little future, he is the future... We haven't had a dominating player since Grant Hill and we're not going to trade a potentially dominating player for a trip to the finals (Rasheed).


That's it, I'm going to call Dumars tonight and tell him what I think of this deal!


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> First off, Memo is not even a lock to re-sign with us even if we have the cap room.


Actually, he is. He's a restricted Free Agent, so if Detroit has the cap room, they can match any offer sheet he signs.

I guess if he decided to leave the NBA for Europe or retire altogether he wouldn't be a lock, but IF Detroit has the cap room and he stays in the NBA the Pistons can match and keep him.

Ed O.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>DetBNyce</b>!
> 
> Milicic is more than a little future, he is the future... We haven't had a dominating player since Grant Hill and we're not going to trade a potentially dominating player for a trip to the finals (Rasheed).


How's it worked out for you since you traded your dominant player? 

Ed O.


----------



## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually, he is. He's a restricted Free Agent, so if Detroit has the cap room, they can match any offer sheet he signs.
> 
> I guess if he decided to leave the NBA for Europe or retire altogether he wouldn't be a lock, but IF Detroit has the cap room and he stays in the NBA the Pistons can match and keep him.
> 
> Ed O.


All that has slipped my mind, you're right...


----------



## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> How's it worked out for you since you traded your dominant player?
> 
> Ed O.


Nice way to turn that around...:yes: 

But it's still no championship.


----------



## Hibachi!

> I don't think Okur is a possibility since the Blazers would not be able to resign him. They will not trade sheed for a player that will only be with them for the remainder of this year. Okur does not come with bird rights, so the most the blazers could offer him to resign would be the MLE. He will most likely go for 6-7 mil, or about 1.5-2.5 mil more then the what the MLE will be.


But thats what the Blazers want, someone they can drop at the end of the season... theyre freeing up salary space remember... 



> definitely think they could beat the Spurs with Wallace. Wallace has limited Duncan quite a few times. If Wallace could keep Duncan from dominating, the rest of the Pistons match-up quite well with the rest of the Spurs.





> Likewise, the Kings would be well within Detroit's realm if Wallace could handle Webber without needing double-team help (and he can and has).


Uh... No.... I hope you dont seriously think thats a possibility... now if the Pistons got a real quality big man, like a Duncan Shaq KG or Webber, then they have a chance, Wallace isnt near the caliber of those players...


----------



## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> Uh... No.... I hope you dont seriously think thats a possibility... now if the Pistons got a real quality big man, like a Duncan Shaq KG or Webber, then they have a chance, Wallace isnt near the caliber of those players...


Exactly. He may put us closer, but I don't feel he would be the piece to put us over the top.


----------



## ripct

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> But thats what the Blazers want, someone they can drop at the end of the season... theyre freeing up salary space remember...


This thread has gone 6 pages, and I'm pretty sure it was mentioned several times already. If the Blazers just want to free up salary cap, then they would simply let Rasheed walk at the end of the season and drop 17mils off the payroll.

... sorry. It just really bugs me when a poster give such a rebuttal because they have no clue of what they are talking about.


----------



## ripct

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> Uh... No.... I hope you dont seriously think thats a possibility... now if the Pistons got a real quality big man, like a Duncan Shaq KG or Webber, then they have a chance, Wallace isnt near the caliber of those players...


Let me get this out of the way first: out of the three contending teams from the West, I feel that Sacramento has the least chance of going to the finals. 

The Pistons would still be the underdogs, but they would certainly have a chance of defeating San Antonio, Sacramento, and even L.A. 

I agree with Minstrel that defeating L.A. would be a much harder task, but Detroit would matchup especially well against San Antonio. The key to beating the Spurs is obviously to contain Duncan. R. Wallace and B. Wallace would probably be the two best players in the league to defend Duncan.


----------



## Siouxperior

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> Uh... No.... I hope you dont seriously think thats a possibility... now if the Pistons got a real quality big man, like a Duncan Shaq KG or Webber, then they have a chance, Wallace isnt near the caliber of those players...


Funny how you mentioned Webber, he's been a total GIMP the past few years.


----------



## GOD

There seem to be so many Piston Fans that think that this is a bad trade, but I really think that the team who loses in this trade is the Blazers. Still I would do the trade, mostly because it is uncertain that the blazers will be able to retain sheed, but the pistions I think will be able to. This is mostly because the blazers take a PR hit by keeping sheed, but the pistons would not. 

Sheed is a top 30 player in the NBA in most peoples opinion, and in my opinion he is around the 15th best player. Milicic is completely unproven. He is a very good prospect, but he haS shown nothing yet. most think he will be a good player in the future, but there is no garantee that he will be a great player. How many of you think that Kawame Brown will be a Great Player? How about the Candyman? 

Hi picks, especially big men often do not pan out no matter how much the scouts love them. Detroit would be taking almost no risk, but the Blazers would be taking a huge risk. Usually a team would not be willing to do this, but with the blazers having a hard time selling tickets, they are more likely to take risks now then perhaps ever before. 

For all you who are dissing rashead, he has his flaws, but he is a very very good player who is team oriented and has proven over the years that he can succeed in the postseason. Detroit would be wise, if this trade is on the table, to take it.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> Atkins: 29
> Billups: 27
> Campbell: 35
> Davis: 33
> Fowlkes: 27
> Hamilton: 25
> Hunter: 33
> Milicic: 18
> Okur: 24
> Prince: 23
> Rebraca: 31
> Sura: 30
> Wallace: 29
> Williamson: 30
> 
> Sorry... I just don't see a "very young team".


The players who matter are young. Billups at 27, Rip at 25, Prince at 23, Memo at 24, Ben at 29, Darko at 18, and even Carlos Delfino is only 21.

That's a young team. Dennis Rodman relied heavily on his athleticism too, yet he won 3 championships and lead the league in rebounding multiple times in his 30's. 

I think Pistons fans view this as a bad trade if Darko is involved because we don't see him as a crapshoot like everyone else does. 

He is NOT Kwame Brown and he is NOT Olowakandi, you can tell that much just by looking at him. He's 7'1" he runs like a dear and he can shoot. Talent wise he is completely ready to play right now but he is still learning the NBA game and Larry Brown has no interest in playing him until he has it down. But when I watch him running around during warmups and watch him in the limited minutes he has gotten, I see nothing to suggest he won't be a great player. With his body and skills it will be very hard for him NOT to be great. Not to mention he is left handed, and we have seen how much that helps Zach Randolph.


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> The players who matter are young. Billups at 27, Rip at 25, Prince at 23, Memo at 24, Ben at 29, Darko at 18, and even Carlos Delfino is only 21.


Billups and Ben aren't young. Rip isn't "very young. Memo's going to probably be gone after this year, and Delfino was a late first rounder for a reason (he's an unknown and it's quite possible he'll never be even an average NBA player). So that leaves prince at 23 and Darko at 18. Young? Sure. 

Sorry, it doesn't add up to a very young team.

Ed O.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> Uh... No.... I hope you dont seriously think thats a possibility... now if the Pistons got a real quality big man, like a Duncan Shaq KG or Webber, then they have a chance, Wallace isnt near the caliber of those players...


Uh, why are you putting Webber in the category with Shaq, Duncan and KG? Those three guys are on their own level.

Neither Webber nor Wallace belong there.

However, Wallace has the defense to guard them, and has done so fairly consistently. I don't have to conjecture, I've seen him do it.

The Kings, after all the losses they suffered in the off-season, are the weakest of those three teams I listed. Wallace can definitely handle Webber, and the rest of the Kings are not outside the ability of the rest of the Pistons.

It would basically be offense vs. defense for the rest of the front court...Miller vs. B. Wallace, Stojakovic vs. Prince. And then the backcourts, where the Pistons actually have the offensive edge over the Kings.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> 
> Dennis Rodman relied heavily on his athleticism too, yet he won 3 championships and lead the league in rebounding multiple times in his 30's.


Rodman relied heavily on his smarts and experience, not athleticism. He didn't win rebounding titles by muscling everyone out of the way or out-leaping them. He won them because studied his teammates and opponents exhaustively, to the point where he knew, probabilistically, where any missed shot was going to go, based on the player who was shooting and where he shot the ball from.

He was a brilliant man and team defender, but not because he was a shot-blocker like Wallace, depending on ups. His defensive positioning and footwork were perfect, in man defense, and he had the smarts to make the right decisions in double-teaming or shooting a passing lane.

I don't consider Ben Wallace and Rodman comps at all when it comes to projecting them.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Ed O</b>!
> 
> 
> Billups and Ben aren't young. Rip isn't "very young. Memo's going to probably be gone after this year, and Delfino was a late first rounder for a reason (he's an unknown and it's quite possible he'll never be even an average NBA player). So that leaves prince at 23 and Darko at 18. Young? Sure.
> 
> Sorry, it doesn't add up to a very young team.
> 
> Ed O.


Well when you consider most NBA players enter their prime around 29-30 all those guys are pretty young. Billups and Hamilton have 5-6 years left of being a highly effective backcourt duo before either starts to fade. I really don't think Memo will be gone next year unless the Pistons want him to be, and the reason Delfino was a late first round pick was because he couldn't get out of his contract for this season. People in Spain call him Manu Ginobili but with better defense, he should be a solid third guard.

The average age of their starters is 25. I call that young.


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>Minstrel</b>!
> 
> I don't consider Ben Wallace and Rodman comps at all when it comes to projecting them.


I do.

You think Ben Wallace does everything he does simply because of athleticism? There are a lot of guys who can jump higher than Ben in the NBA.

Ben Wallace's biggest asset (and the thing he brings most to his team) is hustle. Even more important than shot blocking, he probably gets his team 6 or 7 extra possessions a game on hustle plays. People don't realize this though because there is no stat for it.

He probably won't dominate in his mid 30's like he does now, but still will be very effective as defensive role player.


----------



## bballer27

this would be a great trade portland will get rid of wallace and detroit will get rid of sura


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>bballer27</b>!
> this would be a great trade portland will get rid of wallace and detroit will get rid of sura


whats wrong with Sura, outside of the fact he used to (or maybe still does) bleach his hair?


----------



## Hibachi!

> Funny how you mentioned Webber, he's been a total GIMP the past few years.


Funny, the Dallas series was the first playoff game hes EVER missed in his career, he hasnt been out as much as you think... 



> Uh, why are you putting Webber in the category with Shaq, Duncan and KG? Those three guys are on their own level.


Hmm thats odd.... you know what numbers KG put up last year??? 23pts 13 rebs 6 assists... C Webb= 22pts 10rebs 5 assists

You know how many players led their team in points rebounds and assists? Do you know? TWO... and i think you can take a pretty good guess who they are... he was fourth in the MVP ballot voting 2 years ago... dont try and knock down Webber, theres not one team that wouldnt take him in an instant...And dont try and say KG gets it done in the playoffs... because o yeah, he doesnt...


----------



## Hibachi!

You mean to tell me Webber isnt a quality big man? Because if hes not your sadly mistaken... the Kings may be able to win w/o him in the regular season, but NOT in the playoffs, when it counts, didnt the Dallas series show anybody that?


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> You mean to tell me Webber isnt a quality big man? Because if hes not your sadly mistaken... the Kings may be able to win w/o him in the regular season, but NOT in the playoffs, when it counts, didnt the Dallas series show anybody that?


they can't win WITH him either...just check out game 7 against the Lakers.


----------



## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> Hmm thats odd.... you know what numbers KG put up last year??? 23pts 13 rebs 6 assists... C Webb= 22pts 10rebs 5 assists


KG put up those assists with *far* fewer offensive weapons around him to pass to. Webber has been on much better teams with a system that favours him. KG *is* a system, he'd dominate no matter where he was.

On top of that, Garnett plays an order of magnitude better defense. He can guard 1 through 5 and is a much better defender at any of those positions than Webber.



> dont try and knock down Webber, theres not one team that wouldnt take him in an instant...


Assuming he wasn't injured each of the last two years, sure...a lot of teams would take him. That still doesn't put him at the level of Shaq, Duncan or KG. Those three are Hall of Fame types. Webber is not.



> You mean to tell me Webber isnt a quality big man? Because if hes not your sadly mistaken...


Of course he's a quality big man. Who said he wasn't? You can not be as good as Duncan, KG or Shaq and still be very good. Rasheed Wallace is also a quality big man. They're at least similarly talented on offense, but Webber is more aggressive, so I'll grant that he's more effective on offense. Wallace is a better defensive player than Webber.

The point was, Wallace can defend Webber without needing double-team help. He's done it before and will continue doing it. And if you can limit Webber without committing double-teams, the Kings are much less fearsome, especially without the deep bench they had in years past.


----------



## Hibachi!

I see your point... still Webber is at least in top 5 big men...

1.Shaq
2.Duncan
3.KG
4.Webber
5.??Jermaine??



> they can't win WITH him either...just check out game 7 against the Lakers.


But they have a hell of a better chance with him... hmm lets see the Lakers in 7 or Dallas in 7... hmmm thats a toughy, what a great point you made...


----------



## Hibachi!

> Assuming he wasn't injured each of the last two years, sure...a lot of teams would take him. That still doesn't put him at the level of Shaq, Duncan or KG. Those three are Hall of Fame types. Webber is not.


Id say Webber could make it, hes got 5 or 6 years left on him, hes already learned to play without any athleticism...(when he had his ankle thing) if he keeps up his numbers, his numbers are really nice...


----------



## SheedSoNasty

So... how bout that Sheed for Darko trade rumor...


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> I see your point... still Webber is at least in top 5 big men...
> 
> 1.Shaq
> 2.Duncan
> 3.KG
> 4.Webber
> 5.??Jermaine??
> 
> 
> 
> But they have a hell of a better chance with him... hmm lets see the Lakers in 7 or Dallas in 7... hmmm thats a toughy, what a great point you made...


any team is better with a main cog in their offense, doesn't mean they're top level talent. 

Let's see...Kings have HCA...and a 3-2 lead...and blow it.

Have game 7 AT HOME, and Chris Webber doesn't show up.

yep, it IS a great point.


----------



## Hibachi!

Yes because we all know SHAQ hits big game winning shots... O THATS RIGHT! HE doesnt take shots down in the fourth quarter... hm very shocking, so that means Shaq isnt a good player... And lets not forget KGS 2 missed free throws in game 4 against the Lakers that lost them the game, that makes him a bad player too...O ya and Peja sucks too because he airballed the three in game 7... ya he sucks...or when Kobe threw the ball up to himself against the Spurs on a breakaway and lost THEM the game, ya Kobe sucks too... hmm is there anyone in the NBA that hasnt cost their team a game? Hmm i dont think there is... i guess they all suck


----------



## Hibachi!

and no its ISNT a great point, one game doesnt define a career...unless your Bill Buckner...


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> and no its ISNT a great point, one game doesnt define a career...unless your Bill Buckner...



"one" game?

how many big games has Chris decided to shoot only jumpers in? How many times has he dissapeared in big games? It's far more than just 1 game.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> Yes because we all know SHAQ hits big game winning shots... O THATS RIGHT! HE doesnt take shots down in the fourth quarter... hm very shocking, so that means Shaq isnt a good player... And lets not forget KGS 2 missed free throws in game 4 against the Lakers that lost them the game, that makes him a bad player too...O ya and Peja sucks too because he airballed the three in game 7... ya he sucks...or when Kobe threw the ball up to himself against the Spurs on a breakaway and lost THEM the game, ya Kobe sucks too... hmm is there anyone in the NBA that hasnt cost their team a game? Hmm i dont think there is... i guess they all suck


for one, I'm not saying that KG is in the level of Duncan or Shaq..but unlike Webber, Duncan and Shaq (and Kobe) *have* shown up in important games.

when it mattered most, Shaq showed up in 2000, and in 2001, and 2002. Duncan showed up when it mattered most in 99, and 2003.

When has Webber ever shown up when it mattered most?


----------



## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> I see your point... still Webber is at least in top 5 big men...
> 
> 1.Shaq
> 2.Duncan
> 3.KG
> 4.Webber
> 5.??Jermaine??


I'd say it's more like:

1. Shaq
2. Duncan
3. KG
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
4. Webber
5. Jermaine


----------



## MAS RipCity

I'd say Shaq is quite possibly the most overrated baller of all time. Geese, the guy is so big, he can barely shoot over 55% from the field,and we all know he doesn't shoot outside of 5 feet. He is dominant..yes..but talent wise at the level of KG....no way jose.


----------



## Hibachi!

Wow man... how can you not be satisfied with a 22 10 5 and tell me one game other than that one where C Webb hasnt played well...


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> Wow man... how can you not be satisfied with a 22 10 5 and tell me one game other than that one where C Webb hasnt played well...


well, you asked for it.

game 4 of the 2002 WCFs wasn't exactly a earth shattering game by Chris. 20 points, 6 boards? In a game that could have put the Lakers down 3-1? 20 points was all he could muster?

Game 6...Shaq and Kobe had 72 points between them. They did what it took to win. 

Obviously the case could be made that the fact the Lakers shot 15 more free throws could be, and probably will be thrown in, but in games 2, 3 and 5 the kings had a +43 free throw edge (including 20 more in game 3), and the other games were close. 

Game 7. Shaq and Kobe? 
Shaq: 35 points 13 boards 4 block shots. 

Kobe: 30 points, 11 boards and 7 assists.

Webber? 20 points. 11 assists, and 8 rebounds. He wasn't even the leading scorer on his own *team*.

face it, Webber didn't game up in the playoffs.


----------



## HOWIE

Weber has been labled as soft when it comes to the playoffs. I think that he is a good player, but he tends to fade away during the playoffs.


----------



## Ed O

I think Webber's a pretty good offensive player, but he's not a good free throw shooter, tends to float offensively (although not nearly as much as Rasheed does), not very good defensively, and he's injury-prone.

The Kings are certainly a better team with him, but he's not one of the top big men in the NBA to me.

Ed O.


----------



## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> Game 7. Shaq and Kobe?
> Shaq: 35 points 13 boards 4 block shots.
> 
> Kobe: 30 points, 11 boards and 7 assists.
> 
> Webber? *20 points. 11 assists, and 8 rebounds*. He wasn't even the leading scorer on his own *team*.
> 
> face it, Webber didn't game up in the playoffs.


- 11 assists.

- A near triple double by a PF.

- Responsible for at least 42 points of his teams total offence in that game (2 fewer then Kobe).

What a bum.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> 
> 
> - 11 assists.
> 
> - A near triple double by a PF.
> 
> - Responsible for at least 42 points of his teams total offence in that game (2 fewer then Kobe).
> 
> What a bum.


the PG should be the one getting the assists, not the PF. 

Which would the Kings have rather had? Webber score 40 points and have 5 assists, and have Bibby get a lot of assists on those points, or Webber score 20 points and have 11 assists, and Bibby not get a lot of assists?

All it means is Webber didn't take over the game. Kobe had 7 assists (yes, I know he's not a PF and it's not the same) but he also had 30 points. 

Webber needed to shoot better, needed to rebound more, and needed to show up for that game.


----------



## Slasher

> Originally posted by <b>Discovery69</b>!
> I read from Hoopsworld some of the Blazers fans reporting the following....
> 
> Mike Rice in his pre-game reports that Nash & Dumars have talked about Rasheed for Milicic.
> 
> Local Portland sports radio KFXX said after the Detroit game this is the rumor being discussed:
> 
> *Rasheed Wallace to Detroit
> Darko Milicic, Elden Campbell, Bob Sura & Hubert Davis*
> 
> Campbell's contract is through '04-'05. Davis is another outside shooter and Sura is a defensive player, both at SG. Sura can play some PG too.
> 
> Looks like the rumor is having some legs of it's own with the GMs.


Would Portland fans want all those guys especially aging Campbell, Sura, and Davis?


----------



## Hibachi!

> the PG should be the one getting the assists, not the PF.


Wow then you obviously know nothing about the Kings... The Kings run ALL their offense through their big men... theyd rather have 11 from Webber than 11 from Bibby... and u mentioned game 4... i mean come on... Vlade hits those 2 free throws game over... you cant blame Webber for that loss... Horry nailed that freakin shot, not his fault... and the KINGS ARE A UNSELFISH TEAMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Webber passes, its team first personal second...so Rick would have rather had C Webb have 11 assists than the points and no assists...he did just fine in that game, 22 11 and 8 is great and i have no complaints about that and neither should anyone else... funny, no one would be complaining about his play if they won, even IF he had the same numbers...and thank you for pointing that out Enigma... whered you get those stats anywayz??


----------



## The Enigma

Due to his propensity towards injury I would rate Webber as a second tear PF amongst the elite. Below both Duncan and Garnett but above Nowitzki and J. O'Neal. However, when healthy Webber is right their nipping on the heels of the top 2.

_23 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists, a block and a half plus a steal and a half (those numbers simply cannot be overlooked)._

Webber much like Wallace has been saddled with a bum rap and no matter what he does it will never be good enough.

- Average 20, 10 and 5... not good enough.
- Rejuvenate a franchise that barely exists on the NBA map... not good enough.
- Be the best player on one of the leagues top teams... not good enough.
- Date a supermodel... not good enough.
- Give some of the most charismatic and articulate interviews in the association... not good enough.

If the Kings manage to win it all this season... it still won’t be good enough 
(Oh why did it take so long, the team is so deep).

Nothing will ever be good enough. 

-------

Webber (I will admit) has been known to wilt at pressure time but that alone should not diminish the great work he puts forth on a nightly basis, which enables those such as Bibby and Jackson to shine in the crunch. People now days are so caught up in the big game moments that they discredit all the little victories accomplished along the way.
Everyone remembers the 2 pointer that wins the game but no one remembers the 12 big points contributed in the 2nd while the opposing team threatens to pull away. Nobody remembers the big steal or the won jump ball that resulted in 4 unanswered points. All anyone seems to remember is the follow threw preceding the final buzzer (that defining moment, the sensational punctuation).

But those twelve (the ones oh so forgotten, the obscure stepping stones along the way), they were paramount, if not in significance certainly in scope for without them the crack of the wrist and the accentuation of the follow through merely result in a 2 point reduction in an insurmountable deficit.

A meaningless jump shot to reduce a 12-point deficit to 10 (possibly 9).

_You see... 

There is meaning in every shot, there is contribution in every effort, as the win is only the sum of its every contribution. 
(23, 10 and 5... that surely contributes)
_

*P.S.* Peja chokes far more then Webber chokes yet no one singles him out for it. I recall him with many an air ball down the stretch of the final few Kings Lakers games. He even contributed a whopping 0 point in the 4th quarter of a loss against our Blazers this season.

Is he not deserving of defamation…


----------



## Minstrel

*Re: Re: Darko for Rasheed - Rice reports GMs talk*



> Originally posted by <b>Slasher</b>!
> 
> Would Portland fans want all those guys especially aging Campbell, Sura, and Davis?


Price of doing business.

It's one of the elements that makes the deal fair. *If* Portland is rebuilding, they can accept the contracts and let them expire over the next couple years. The Pistons get cap flexibility to re-sign Okur and compete *now*.


----------



## Hibachi!

Well said Enigma... Well said...


----------



## dkap

> Peja chokes far more then Webber chokes yet no one singles him out for it. I recall him with many an air ball down the stretch of the final few Kings Lakers games.


As I recall, everyone but Bibby choked at the end of that game. Christie worst of all.

Dan


----------



## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> - Date a supermodel... not good enough.


That should be good enough, I think.

barfo


----------



## ebott

How about this. If the trade on the table were Webber for Darko and filler instead of Sheed would Detroit fans be willing to do it? I'm thinking it would probably be a resounding yes. We've got plenty of Detroit fans here to tell us. Is that at all in line with the argument here or are we simply bashing and defending Chris Webber?


----------



## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>ebott</b>!
> How about this. If the trade on the table were Webber for Darko and filler instead of Sheed would Detroit fans be willing to do it? I'm thinking it would probably be a resounding yes. We've got plenty of Detroit fans here to tell us. Is that at all in line with the argument here or are we simply bashing and defending Chris Webber?


I predict the Detroit fans say "no way, the minimum we will take for Darko is Christ, and we want the cross and all the apostles too. And that's only if Christ comes with a good contract."

I wonder if Darko has a brother named Barfo?

barfo


----------



## Ed O

> Originally posted by <b>ebott</b>!
> How about this. If the trade on the table were Webber for Darko and filler instead of Sheed would Detroit fans be willing to do it? I'm thinking it would probably be a resounding yes. We've got plenty of Detroit fans here to tell us. Is that at all in line with the argument here or are we simply bashing and defending Chris Webber?


Webber's contract is bigger and longer than Rasheed's... depending on how willing Pisons ownership is to spending, it might actually cripple the Pistons' ability to add pieces to the team, so even if he's a better player than Rasheed (and he probably is, when both are on the court), he might be less valuable to the franchise.

On the other hand, Webber is from Michigan, and went to college there, so he has a legacy in the state and a built-in amount of fan loyalty that a Philly-NC guy like Rasheed wouldn't have.

In other words: I don't know if asking Detroit fans that question would really yield anything meaningful (then again... does ANYTHING on this board yield anything meaningful?  ).

Ed O.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> Wow then you obviously know nothing about the Kings... The Kings run ALL their offense through their big men... theyd rather have 11 from Webber than 11 from Bibby... and u mentioned game 4... i mean come on... Vlade hits those 2 free throws game over...


webber, if he was really in the same group as Duncan or Shaq, would have done something to put the team over. 

Let's put it this way, who would you rather have? Webber, or Duncan?



> you cant blame Webber for that loss... Horry nailed that freakin shot, not his fault...


when your star player doesn't deliver, it says a lot.


> and the KINGS ARE A UNSELFISH TEAMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM


thats nice to knowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. But it still doesn't change the fact that webber didn't and doesn't take over the games. Look at the series with Minn and Dallas 2 years ago. KG went insane trying to win that series. He had, at that time, only Wally on the team that was really worth it. The guy went absolutely insane. I think he averaged something like 30 points and 18 boards a game.



> Webber passes, its team first personal second...so Rick would have rather had C Webb have 11 assists than the points and no assists...he did just fine in that game, 22 11 and 8 is great and i have no complaints about that and neither should anyone else...


cept the fact he needed to score more *points* to help the team win. For petes sake, Samaki Walker was defending him. How couldn't he get 20 by *accident*?


> funny, no one would be complaining about his play if they won, even IF he had the same numbers...


people would probably be praising Bibby more than Webber, and still saying how he didn't lead the team. It was obvious that Bibby was the clutch guy on that team.

I'm not saying that Webber is a bum, but he doesn't take over games like stars do.


----------



## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> Due to his propensity towards injury I would rate Webber as a second tear PF amongst the elite. Below both Duncan and Garnett but above Nowitzki and J. O'Neal. However, when healthy Webber is right their nipping on the heels of the top 2.


yep


> Webber much like Wallace has been saddled with a bum rap and no matter what he does it will never be good enough.
> 
> - Average 20, 10 and 5... not good enough.


taking it up a notch in the playoffs is more important. Doing all you can to win is more important. Having HCA and choking, is not good enough. 


> - Rejuvenate a franchise that barely exists on the NBA map... not good enough.


this really has nothing to do with the argument. That doesn't make him a top tier player. Doesn't take away the fact he doesn't dominate the playoffs the way he should.


> - Date a supermodel... not good enough.


what in the hell does this have to do with anything? Since when does dating a supermodel matter at all? Seriously? Who really cares about this? 


> - Give some of the most charismatic and articulate interviews in the association... not good enough.


get caught with marijuana, not good enough...have a grand jury go after you..not good enough...


> If the Kings manage to win it all this season... it still won’t be good enough
> (Oh why did it take so long, the team is so deep).


hey, if they win it all this year, great for them, and it would mean that Chris, Doug and Peja finally stopped choking *when it counts*. They'd actually join Bibby in the class of people who game up.



> Nothing will ever be good enough.


thats like saying "man, in a league where winning the title is really the important thing...man, if you lose, it's unfair..thats not good enough..wah"..

When (or if) Webber leads a team to the finals, he's a prime time player.


> -------
> 
> Webber (I will admit) has been known to wilt at pressure time but that alone should not diminish the great work he puts forth on a nightly basis, which enables those such as Bibby and Jackson to shine in the crunch. People now days are so caught up in the big game moments that they discredit all the little victories accomplished along the way.


maybe Bibby and Jackson shine *because* they know Webber wilts away..



> *P.S.* Peja chokes far more then Webber chokes yet no one singles him out for it.


since when is Peja being considered the best at his position? I'm unaware of anyone trying to suggest that Peja deserves to be up there with the McGrady and Kobe's of the game. Why? Because he hasn't (as of yet) shown up when it counts. Just like Kobe in his 1st and 2nd real NBA series, he didn't show up. Now he does. When Peja does, then it'll be a valid argument that he's one of the best. Until that time, he's just a pretender to the throne.


> I recall him with many an air ball down the stretch of the final few Kings Lakers games. He even contributed a whopping 0 point in the 4th quarter of a loss against our Blazers this season.
> 
> Is he not deserving of defamation…


when someone tries to prop him up, he will be shot down too.


----------



## NateBishop3

not that I really care much about this argument, but I would just like to throw out that I think Geoff Petrie rejuvinated Sac, not C-Webb. He traded for Webber and Bibby, he signed Vlade, and he drafted Peja. If it wasn't for Petrie's brilliance the Kings would still have Mitch Richmond...


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## Hibachi!

> taking it up a notch in the playoffs is more important. Doing all you can to win is more important. Having HCA and choking, is not good enough.


What exactly is HCA???



> thats nice to knowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. But it still doesn't change the fact that webber didn't and doesn't take over the games. Look at the series with Minn and Dallas 2 years ago. KG went insane trying to win that series. He had, at that time, only Wally on the team that was really worth it. The guy went absolutely insane. I think he averaged something like 30 points and 18 boards a game.


Ok... let me ask you this... name ONE... ONE game where Kobe took over, name one... not numbers, because numbers can be misleading, theres a difference between a quiet 35 and a dominating 35... a huge difference. You know game 6 against the Lakers, Duncan only had thirty-somethin points, but it was dominant... you cant tell me one dominating game by Kobe in the playoffs that is...


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## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> What exactly is HCA???


*H*ome *C*ourt *A*dvantage.


> Ok... let me ask you this... name ONE... ONE game where Kobe took over, name one... not numbers, because numbers can be misleading, theres a difference between a quiet 35 and a dominating 35... a huge difference. You know game 6 against the Lakers, Duncan only had thirty-somethin points, but it was dominant... you cant tell me one dominating game by Kobe in the playoffs that is...


i can't tell you one dominating game by kobe because I don't follow them. Ask someone who follows them, and I'm sure they can think of a game or two.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>ebott</b>!
> How about this. If the trade on the table were Webber for Darko and filler instead of Sheed would Detroit fans be willing to do it? I'm thinking it would probably be a resounding yes. We've got plenty of Detroit fans here to tell us. Is that at all in line with the argument here or are we simply bashing and defending Chris Webber?


I don't think so. Despite the fact that Webber is from Detroit, NOBODY likes him here. Not only did he literally set Michigan basketball back 10 years, but snubbed the Pistons pretty badly by signing with the Kings for less money than Detroit was offering.

Webber in Detroit would go over about as well as Reggie in New York.


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## dkap

> snubbed the Pistons pretty badly by signing with the Kings for less money than Detroit was offering.


I thought he signed for the max with Sacto?

Dan


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## STOMP

You're right dkap, he signed the biggest contract he was offered, though I'm sure that some in the Detroit fanbase felt snubbed nonetheless.

STOMP


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## dkap

Gotcha. Sort of like the media's incessant harping on Rasheed even though he's done nothing overtly wrong on the court in a very long time? People will believe what they want to believe ... don't confuse them with facts.

Dan


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## Hibachi!

This Pistons would take Webber in a split second... wouldnt even have to think about it...


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## STOMP

Whats the name of that guy who wrote the Odyssey? The Pistons wouldn't even think about choosing Webber over Wallace when he's nearly 2 years older and coming off of a major injury? Whatever you say dude...

STOMP


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## MLKG

I don't remember the exact details of Webber's signing, a part of me wants to say he signed with the Kigns before the CBA went into effect, making the max contract thing irrelevent, but I don't know for sure. I do know Detroit offered him at least equal money and he snubbed them.

Yeah, the Pistons would love someone with Webber's tallent, but no player in the entire NBA is hated as much as Webber is in Detroit.


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## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>STOMP</b>!
> Whats the name of that guy who wrote the Odyssey? The Pistons wouldn't even think about choosing Webber over Wallace when he's nearly 2 years older and coming off of a major injury? Whatever you say dude...
> 
> STOMP



I'm confused by what you're saying. It sounds like you're saying they should take webber over wallace, because he's 2 years older and coming off a major injury, but then you almost act like you think the opposite should be true...


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## NateBishop3

I think he just worded it funny Hap. The message was still pretty clear though. The Pistons wouldn't even consider taking Webber over Wallace with an older C-Webb coming off a major injury.


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## Hibachi!

Hes saying they wouldnt think as in they wouldnt do it, they wouldnt even have to think about not doing it...which is retarded... hmm lets see, 18 7 and 2... or 22 10 5... hmm... someone that gets technicals all the time and is known as a cancer to the team, or a recent mvp candidate, someone a team is trying to get rid of... or someone that is the heart and soul of the team and the main guy in their offense... hmm what a toughy...


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## dkap

> Whats the name of that guy who wrote the Odyssey?


Nice one! 



> I do know Detroit offered him at least equal money and he snubbed them.


STOMP's and my memory say otherwise. And since you were first quite positive that Detroit offered him more and are now unsure if the contract fell under CBA rules (I'm nearly positive it did), you have to admit, that does sort of call into question the accuracy of your own memory of the matter.



> no player in the entire NBA is hated as much as Webber is in Detroit.


Then why did they pursue him so hard as a free agent? The wrath of a woman scorned?

Dan


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## NateBishop3

I would have to say Pippen and the City of Houston would be willing to challenge for player most hated by a city


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## DetBNyce

> Originally posted by <b>dkap</b>!
> 
> Then why did they pursue him so hard as a free agent? The wrath of a woman scorned?
> 
> Dan


I personally don't hate C Webb, I like the guy, in fact he's in my avatar. But, a lot of people in the Detroit area do dislike the guy, basically for the U-M scandal thing that was going on. Which was recently and we pursued him during his FA year. I think I can honestly say that the people that actually hate Webber are the "uppity" people from the Detroit metro area. I think it's all love from the rest of the fans.


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## Hibachi!

You know whats funny about the whole Detroit hating Webber thing, is that Webber actually tried to help Michigan... had he told the truth, the team would have gotten removed from the NCAA tournament anywayz...he lied to protect the school, he would not have received any punishment had he told the truth...as far as accepting the money goes, come on, your in college, you have no money, and someone comes up to you and says hey man, ill let you borrow 300 thousand and you can use my vacation house, and the ferrari, your going to say no? Contrary to what ANY of you say, i know you dont actually think you would. And nice point dkap...


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## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> no player in the entire NBA is hated as much as Webber is in Detroit.


Others have questioned this statement, and I certainly don't claim to have my finger on the pulse of all the NBA cities, but here by the Bay they aren't too fond of Sprewell as many in the fanbase still give him a lion's share of the blame/frustations for GS's decade long playoff draught. GS fans boo him all game long every time he comes back... just like they used to do with Webber.

STOMP


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## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>dkap</b>!
> STOMP's and my memory say otherwise.


According to my memory... the Kings very publicly offered him the most they could. Geez the Maloof's (the Safeway/Palms casino/Kings owners) offered to mow his lawn too. Since they held his so-called Bird rights, by the CBA that would be about 10% more then what the Pistons could have offered. When you're talking millions of dollars thats not small change. 

btw... I don't shop at Safeway

STOMP


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## Ed O

Chris Webber signed his most recent deal on July 21 2001.

http://www.dfw.net/~patricia/contracts
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/chris_webber/

The current CBA came into effect following the lockout-shortened 1998-99 season.

Just so everyone knows/remembers.

Ed O.


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## Storyteller

To add to what *Ed O.* just posted:

The Kings signed Webber to a 7 year, $122.7 million deal.

The most that the Pistons could have possibly offered was 6 years, $95.6 million.


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## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> You know whats funny about the whole Detroit hating Webber thing, is that Webber actually tried to help Michigan... had he told the truth, the team would have gotten removed from the NCAA tournament anywayz...he lied to protect the school, he would not have received any punishment had he told the truth...as far as accepting the money goes, come on, your in college...


Records show he started recieving big dollars in high school from Michigan boosters, so Michigan was involved in recruiting illegally. In your opinion... should Webber and Michigan be permitted to circumvent the laws because he's young and they are Michigan, or should he and they have been punished (like the rest of us would have been) if we'd been caught red-handed? IMO he probably lied not to somehow valiently protect his school, but because he didn't want to be a man and face the concequences for his inappropriate actions that would have resulted in severe punishments for both his team and for him in the court of public opinion. 

Cry me a river on the he had no cash bleep. His father had a job good enough to keep a roof over his head, and put food on the table. I've seen the Webber documentries. Many in this great land of opprotunity have it much worse then Chris did and they are subject to the laws of the land too. 

STOMP


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## Fork

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> as far as accepting the money goes, come on, your in college, you have no money, and someone comes up to you and says hey man, ill let you borrow 300 thousand and you can use my vacation house, and the ferrari, your going to say no? Contrary to what ANY of you say, i know you dont actually think you would. And nice point dkap...


So you're saying it's okay to commit a crime that could cost a program scholarships, national respect and possibly get them put on probation which means no NCAA tournament bids? That affects the lives of many, many others aside from Chris Webber. He is pretty clearly a selfish individual who is motivated only by money. I sure as hell wouldn't want him on my team.

You've got a pretty messed up set of morals if you could do that without thinking twice about it.


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## Hibachi!

Motivated by money? Wouldnt want him on your team? WHAT PLAYER ISNT MOTIVATED BY MONEY... if playeres werent, theyd say no, dont give me that 100 million dollar contract, please pay me minimum wage. AND PLEASE dontn kidd yourselves youd do the same exact thing. Someone please, step up and say you wouldnt, come on, whoever steps up may as well just stamp the letter L I A R on their head...


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## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> Motivated by money? Wouldnt want him on your team? WHAT PLAYER ISNT MOTIVATED BY MONEY... if playeres werent, theyd say no, dont give me that 100 million dollar contract, please pay me minimum wage. AND PLEASE dontn kidd yourselves youd do the same exact thing. Someone please, step up and say you wouldnt, come on, whoever steps up may as well just stamp the letter L I A R on their head...


whether or not any of us would do it or not, does not change the fact that what chris did was wrong.


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## STOMP

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> I'm confused by what you're saying. It sounds like you're saying they should take webber over wallace, because he's 2 years older and coming off a major injury, but then you almost act like you think the opposite should be true...


I was questioning the other poster's opinion that the Pistons wouldn't have to think twice about trading for Webber (essencially calling it a no-brainer), while saying no way to a trade for Wallace. If I was in Joe D's shoes, I'd at least want my doctor's to throughly check Chris out before dealing for him, and even then I might rather have Wallace. Hope that clears things up.

STOMP


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## Fork

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> Motivated by money? Wouldnt want him on your team? WHAT PLAYER ISNT MOTIVATED BY MONEY... if playeres werent, theyd say no, dont give me that 100 million dollar contract, please pay me minimum wage. AND PLEASE dontn kidd yourselves youd do the same exact thing. Someone please, step up and say you wouldnt, come on, whoever steps up may as well just stamp the letter L I A R on their head...


There's a HUGE difference between being motivated by money, and getting paid. If you can't see that, you're a moron. Sure, every player in the league wants to get as much money as they can. But illegally taking money and then lying about it under oath in a court of law shows that Chris Webber finds money a higher priority than telling the truth and not breaking the law.

By your standard, everybody on Earth would be robbing banks because that's where the money is. Oh wait, it's also illegal. Maybe that's why "everybody" isn't doing it. 

No, I wouldn't illegally take money from a booster of a college that was giving me a full ride scholarship to play basketball. I also wouldn't lie to a judge while under oath risking a jail sentence. Call me crazy. 

I hope you never have children. You'll teach them your skewed morals and they'll end up in prison.


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## MLKG

Even outside of all the legal battles, I know a lot of Michigan fans that haven't forgiven him for the time-out technical foul, remember, Webber has been choking in big games since his college days. I don't live in Detroit so I don't know how it is there, but I really don't know anyone that is a Chris Webber fan.

The reason I thought he signed his deal before the CBA was because came to Sacramento via trade before that lockout season.

Since people seem to be dwelling on it for some reason, I decided to read some old articles to refresh my memory on it: Basically, after the Kings got swept by the Lakers it looked like Webber was ready to move on (much like Jason Kidd this summer). Sacramento and Detroit both threw as much money as they could at him 



> The Kings signed Webber to a 7 year, $122.7 million deal.
> 
> The most that the Pistons could have possibly offered was 6 years, $95.6 million.


The Kings offered him 17 mil a year and the Pistons offered him 16 mil a year, so it's virtually equal money from that standpoint.

Webber basically lead the Pistons on saying he would love to return home and play for the team he grew up watching and then I think a lot of people really didn't understand why he stayed in Sacramento.

But whatever.

Judging by the reaction he gets from fans whenever he plays at the Palace, it doesn't sound like there is much love for him at all.


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## dkap

It's a difference of $1.6 million per year, or an extra $27 million. Hardly even money by any standard.



> I really don't know anyone that is a Chris Webber fan.
> 
> ...
> 
> Webber basically lead the Pistons on saying he would love to return home and play for the team he grew up watching and then I think a lot of people really didn't understand why he stayed in Sacramento.


You're completely contradicting yourself. People in the area were obviously big fans of his at one point, otherwise they wouldn't have felt snubbed or betrayed by him staying in Sacto. If they didn't care for him, they would have been unphased by his saying he might be interested in returning home, which for all we know was entirely true. After all, he _did_ go with the best offer from the "best" team, so it's pretty obvious what the criteria was. Returning home just didn't outweigh the other factors.

Dan


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## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> yep taking it up a notch in the playoffs is more important. Doing all you can to win is more important. Having HCA and choking, is not good enough. this really has nothing to do with the argument. That doesn't make him a top tier player. Doesn't take away the fact he doesn't dominate the playoffs the way he should. what in the hell does this have to do with anything? Since when does dating a supermodel matter at all? Seriously? Who really cares about this? get caught with marijuana, not good enough...have a grand jury go after you.. not good enough...hey, if they win it all this year, great for them, and it would mean that Chris, Doug and Peja finally stopped choking *when it counts*. They'd actually join Bibby in the class of people who game up. thats like saying "man, in a league where winning the title is really the important thing...man, if you lose, it's unfair.. thats not good enough.. wah"..When (or if) Webber leads a team to the finals, he's a prime time player. maybe Bibby and Jackson shine *because* they know Webber wilts away.. since when is Peja being considered the best at his position? I'm unaware of anyone trying to suggest that Peja deserves to be up there with the McGrady and Kobe's of the game. Why? Because he hasn't (as of yet) shown up when it counts. Just like Kobe in his 1st and 2nd real NBA series, he didn't show up. Now he does. When Peja does, then it'll be a valid argument that he's one of the best. Until that time, he's just a pretender to the throne. when someone tries to prop him up, he will be shot down too.


Those were my personal views on the perception of Webber and the notion of "showing up".

I was not responding to anyone in particular nor was I arguing a point. I simply wrote it because I had inkling to.

With that said, you pointing out that aspects of my post had no bearing on anything made little sense considering Webber has no bearing on the thread at hand.

*Note:* The final 2 dashes utilized were off key for a reason (your inability to grasp my reasoning is of no concern to me).

I answer to no soul (I am vague by design).


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## Dan

oh, sorry. I thought we had finished discussing it.

was this supposed to put me "in my place" or something? because if it was, you should try again. If it wasn't, I guess I just didn't "grasp" your point.

blah blah blah.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>dkap</b>!
> You're completely contradicting yourself. People in the area were obviously big fans of his at one point, otherwise they wouldn't have felt snubbed or betrayed by him staying in Sacto. If they didn't care for him, they would have been unphased by his saying he might be interested in returning home, which for all we know was entirely true. After all, he _did_ go with the best offer from the "best" team, so it's pretty obvious what the criteria was. Returning home just didn't outweigh the other factors.
> 
> Dan


How did I contradict myself whatsoever? The free agency situation was a contributing factor to people not liking him.

If he really wanted to make things right with the people at home he could have come, you can say money was an issue but there was nearly 100 million dollars on the table, and as far as a winning situation, Detroit won 50 games the next year without him, what could they have done with him? And don't even try to explain other factors because I DO realize they exist, I'm just illustrating a point, and explaining why people felt snubbed.

Maybe he's not the most hated man in the NBA in Detroit. I'm an exagerater, it's kinda what I do. But he definately gets a cold reception every time he comes.

Wait a minute, why am I on the Blazers board talking about Chris Webber? Lets just drop it.

In other news, as expected Joe Dumars said yesterday that Darko will be a Piston for a long time. So this deal is pretty much dead unless Portland decides they want Memo (which they might come trade deadline). Yeah, yeah, there might be cap issues. But that just means the Blazers might need to dump a contract, it's doable.


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## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Maybe he's not the most hated man in the NBA in Detroit. I'm an exagerater, it's kinda what I do.


Nice work if you can get it.



> Wait a minute, why am I on the Blazers board talking about Chris Webber? Lets just drop it.


Wait, before you go... Would you, as a Pistons fan, trade Darko for Webber? 



> In other news, as expected Joe Dumars said yesterday that Darko will be a Piston for a long time.


Yes, that's expected and also meaningless. Darko will be a Piston until management trades him, and that could be tomorrow or never, whatever they might say beforehand.

barfo


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## The Enigma

> Originally posted by <b>Hap</b>!
> was this supposed to put me "in my place" or something? because if it was, you should try again. If it wasn't, I guess I just didn't "grasp" your point.


I fail to grasp it myself (I started typing and it was what it was).
It looks nice at least.

In all seriousness I see no need to debate actual basketball with you as I harbor little respect for your understanding of the game.

After listening to you chastise an individual for not showing up in a 20 point, 11 assist, 8 rebound performance then go on to claim that his not being the PG diminishes the significance of the assist total I understood.

Why debate logic with you (surely my time can be better spent)...
_Perhaps talking to a chair or counting stars._

------

I know, I know... Webber does not "game up" when it counts


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## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>The Enigma</b>!
> 
> 
> I fail to grasp it myself (I started typing and it was what it was).
> It looks nice at least.
> 
> In all seriousness I see no need to debate actual basketball with you as I harbor little respect for your understanding of the game.
> 
> After listening to you chastise an individual for not showing up in a 20 point, 11 assist, 8 rebound performance then go on to claim that his not being the PG diminishes the significance of the assist total I understood.
> 
> Why debate logic with you (surely my time can be better spent)...
> _Perhaps talking to a chair or counting stars._
> 
> ------
> 
> I know, I know... Webber does not "game up" when it counts


you have outwitted me. I bow to your superior ability to make witty comments suggesting something.

And before I say something that might be construed as an insult, I'll just say "good day".

when someone shows me a game where Webber did show up and his team won (unlike the games where Duncan showed up..and his team wins..and Shaq or Kobe or Jordan showed up and their teams win) than maybe I will actually give a bucket of KFC about what you're trying to say.


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## MLKG

> Originally posted by <b>barfo</b>!
> Wait, before you go... Would you, as a Pistons fan, trade Darko for Webber?


No. Darko can be the same type of great passing big man that Webber is, only 3 inches taller and 12 years younger.



> Yes, that's expected and also meaningless. Darko will be a Piston until management trades him, and that could be tomorrow or never, whatever they might say beforehand.
> 
> barfo


Nash supposedly offers Sheed for Darko on New Years Eve and 3 days later Dumars says Darko will be a Piston for a long time. I wouldn't call that meaningless.


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## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>Mike luvs KG</b>!
> Nash supposedly offers Sheed for Darko on New Years Eve and 3 days later Dumars says Darko will be a Piston for a long time. I wouldn't call that meaningless.


Well, it might mean that Dumars didn't care for the offer. But it probably doesn't mean that he won't listen to other offers.

barfo


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## Trader Ed

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> ...WHAT PLAYER ISNT MOTIVATED BY MONEY... if playeres werent, theyd say no, dont give me that 100 million dollar contract, please pay me minimum wage. AND PLEASE dontn kidd yourselves youd do the same exact thing. Someone please, step up and say you wouldnt, come on, whoever steps up may as well just stamp the letter L I A R on their head...


Gary Payton and Karl Malone

They are trying to win a championship that has eluded them so far in their careers.

and don't even think of calling me a liar


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## The Enigma

My apologies go out to Hap.

My questioning your knowledge of the game (and my tone in general) was out of line and I apologize.

------

You are entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine.
(This is just entertainment)


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## Hibachi!

I would take Webber over Darco or Rasheed Wallace in a hearbeat, and so would every other GM (assuming he passes his physical which he will)


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## Dan

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> I would take Webber over Darco or Rasheed Wallace in a hearbeat, and so would every other GM (assuming he passes his physical which he will)


probably not too many wouldn't take webber over those two. Hm...double negatives make that sound funny.

I think most GM's would take Webber over those 2.

Darko, an unproven rookie who could be a bust..Rasheed, a player who could leave you at the end of the season with nothing, or a guy who's signed in for the next 5(?) years at a reasonable sum.


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## Hibachi!

Ya Rasheeds salary is gonna go WAYYYYYYYYYYYY down next season... probably around the 8 mil mark, whats he makin this year 17 mil?


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## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> I would take Webber over Darco or Rasheed Wallace in a hearbeat, and so would every other GM (assuming he passes his physical which he will)


Well, Mike luvs KG, who is every bit as much a GM as you or I, disagrees. He'd take Darko over Webber.

I think the answer would vary by GM, depending on the team situation. Some can afford to take a gamble on a long-shot, high payoff Darko, some would want the 'sure thing' of either Wallace or Webber. 

Personally, I think Webber isn't as great as you think, and Darko isn't anywhere near as much a sure thing as Mike luvs KG thinks. And we all know Wallace worships Satan, so there's no point in discussing that.

barfo


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## Minstrel

> Originally posted by <b>barfo</b>!
> 
> And we all know Wallace worships Satan, so there's no point in discussing that.


I thought he was an unreligious baby-eater?

One of us is sure going to be disillusioned when the truth comes out...


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## Hibachi!

> Personally, I think Webber isn't as great as you think, and Darko isn't anywhere near as much a sure thing as Mike luvs KG thinks. And we all know Wallace worships Satan, so there's no point in discussing that.


24 10 and 5 averages in the time hes been in Sacramento isnt great? you cant name many players that put up those kind of numbers...


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## barfo

> Originally posted by <b>SacKings384</b>!
> 
> 
> 24 10 and 5 averages in the time hes been in Sacramento isnt great? you cant name many players that put up those kind of numbers...


I didn't say he isn't great. I said he isn't as great as you think.

barfo


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## Hibachi!

Good enough to be an elite player.... not the best palyer, but amongst the best


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## MLKG

I think Webber is a great player, the reason I wouldn't trade Darko for him is because he hasn't shown the ability to stay healthy. Plus he probably has only 4 or 5 really effective years left and that's only if he can stay healthy for them. Darko may or may not ever be as good as Webber, but he is a whole lot younger and will likely be a good to great player for more than a decade after Webber is out of basketball.


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## Hibachi!

> Most of the time, he doesn't thrown in the towel. But I wouldn't say "never." Kobe completely gave up in Game 6 of the 2003 WCF vs the Spurs. What was he doing in the 4th qtr? 20 points in the game? Biggest game of the year? At home? The same guy who dropped 40+ at will during the season? Lakers only trailed by 9 going into the 4th. By the end of the game, the Lakers lost by 28. How is that excusable in a must-win game?


Thats a quote from the Lakers board, i guess Kobe sucks too... they needed him badly that game andhe didnt show up, gess hes not a elite player either, guess hes a choke artist...


----------

