# GO! Barak Obama



## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

*From Slavery to elected President!!!*


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## HB (May 1, 2004)

He hasn't won yet


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

I must have missed something when were Obama's ancestor's slaves?

I'm pretty sure he is a 2nd generation african american(well half that and caucasian).

and uh , yeah he hasn't won yet.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

I must have missed something when were Obama's ancestor's slaves?

I'm pretty sure he is a 2nd generation african american(well half that and caucasian).

and uh , yeah he hasn't won yet.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

^ Pretty much......but I do hope he wins tonight, because the thought of Palin becoming my VP is very scary.


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## Dean the Master (Feb 19, 2006)

Here's the thing, a lot of black voters vote for Obama just because he is black. He is no where near black, culture wise anyway. There is no white or black America, there is only the United States of America. 
Open your eyes, please help this society prosper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqAiarOhC2U
Here's the case.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

^ He is no where near black? What do you mean culture wise? 
Try telling that to proud African-Americans who had tears in their eyes when they left the poll station, and we all know why they were crying.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Please....*

"Try telling that to proud African-Americans who had tears in their eyes when they left the poll station, and we all know why they were crying." There couldn't possibly be a dumber reason to vote for him. Agree with his politics...fine. Vote for him because he is the same race...dumb. This whole election process has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the American people as a whole are really too stupid to vote for something this important. Neither candidate came remotely close to talking about anything that could really change this country in a meaningful way, but everyone picked sides and licked it up, just like the lap dogs we have become. We were screwed no matter what way this turned out..

What we have become is a lazy, self absorbed, population with a unhealthy sense of entitlement. You see people voting for the guy that they hope can do the most for them, whether its good for the country as a whole, or not. I'm thrilled that a black man can win....I just wished he was a guy with some real answers and understanding of what is needed.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

Dean the Master said:


> Here's the thing, a lot of black voters vote for Obama just because he is black. He is no where near black, culture wise anyway. There is no white or black America, there is only the United States of America.
> Open your eyes, please help this society prosper.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqAiarOhC2U
> Here's the case.


I personally find the racial stuff humorous , considering there is ample proof that even though there appears to be many people voting for Obama because he is black...african americans comprise 12.5 % of the population...there are more voting against him because he isn't white(or at least all white) ...the inuendo that he is black(which he only half black), muslim, arab etc.

that judgemental pendulum swings both ways...and a hell of alot harder in that other direction.

even against a man who no seems to remember is actually half white.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Please....*



alphaorange said:


> "Try telling that to proud African-Americans who had tears in their eyes when they left the poll station, and we all know why they were crying." There couldn't possibly be a dumber reason to vote for him. Agree with his politics...fine. Vote for him because he is the same race...dumb. This whole election process has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the American people as a whole are really too stupid to vote for something this important. Neither candidate came remotely close to talking about anything that could really change this country in a meaningful way, but everyone picked sides and licked it up, just like the lap dogs we have become. We were screwed no matter what way this turned out..
> 
> What we have become is a lazy, self absorbed, population with a unhealthy sense of entitlement. You see people voting for the guy that they hope can do the most for them, whether its good for the country as a whole, or not. I'm thrilled that a black man can win....I just wished he was a guy with some real answers and understanding of what is needed.


while i tend to agree this country has become lazy and self absorbed , i find this attack on black voters unneeded, especially since one only has to look as far as Mccain's age, heart and health problems and his choice of vice president as a reason to vote for Obama, regardless of his actual stance on anything. I think you are looking for a candidate that cant exist in todays politics , until voters prove they care more about the issues than rhetoric , you may see more campaigns like this one which was expertly run but substance light, because in all honesty adding more substance could only hurt not help.

we are living in a country chooses its leader based more on negative ads than qualifications and its been like that for quite some time far before i became of age to vote some 15 years ago.

and lets be honest here , there are a heap of voters in red states(and some that are blue) that voted mccain because of the color of his skin...to deny that is naive.


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## Krstic All-Star (Mar 9, 2005)

Let's face it. Some people voted for each candidate based on race, and a lot of young people voted (many for the first time) because they were swayed by a dynamic speaker who appealed to their idealism. That's how democracy works. I might not agree with a lot of elected officials, including Obama's presumptive foreign policy (which scares the hell out of me), but the fact is that he's going to win. Now we'll see what he's really made of - because post-election, campaign promises and speeches are worth about as much as Fannie Mae stock right now.

And President Obama's responsibility will be to represent all Americans. So long as he is aware of that (and I have little doubt that he is well aware of it), his race, ethnicity, birthplace, early registered religion and God only knows what else just doesn't matter.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: Please....*



alphaorange said:


> "Try telling that to proud African-Americans who had tears in their eyes when they left the poll station, and we all know why they were crying." There couldn't possibly be a dumber reason to vote for him. Agree with his politics...fine. Vote for him because he is the same race...dumb. This whole election process has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the American people as a whole are really too stupid to vote for something this important. Neither candidate came remotely close to talking about anything that could really change this country in a meaningful way, but everyone picked sides and licked it up, just like the lap dogs we have become. We were screwed no matter what way this turned out..
> 
> What we have become is a lazy, self absorbed, population with a unhealthy sense of entitlement. You see people voting for the guy that they hope can do the most for them, whether its good for the country as a whole, or not. I'm thrilled that a black man can win....I just wished he was a guy with some real answers and understanding of what is needed.


Try sticking to talking about the Knicks, because you're clueless. Lastly, African-Americans will vote for a Democratic candidate regardess of their race, so if Hillary was the nominee she would have got the majority of the African-American vote regardless, just like Gore, B. Clinton, and Kerry did. Get a clue.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: Please....*



Da Grinch said:


> while i tend to agree this country has become lazy and self absorbed , i find this attack on black voters unneeded, especially since one only has to look as far as Mccain's age, heart and health problems and his choice of vice president as a reason to vote for Obama, regardless of his actual stance on anything. I think you are looking for a candidate that cant exist in todays politics , until voters prove they care more about the issues than rhetoric , you may see more campaigns like this one which was expertly run but substance light, because in all honesty adding more substance could only hurt not help.
> 
> we are living in a country chooses its leader based more on negative ads than qualifications and its been like that for quite some time far before i became of age to vote some 15 years ago.
> 
> and lets be honest here , there are a heap of voters in red states(and some that are blue) that voted mccain because of the color of his skin...to deny that is naive.


I added on to your post, but it got lost because my wi-fi booted me. Anyway, I just wanted to add that by watching these results unfold it's really clear that the American people thought Obama had a better plan to attack our finanical crisis which was the #1 issue in America. Obama actually had a plan when it came down to taxes, healthcare, etc. McCain was too focus on attacking Obama which didn't work well, just look how he was able to flip a lot of red states blue, like VA, Ohio Florida, Iowa, and Colorado. Kerry, and Gore has never done that. Robocalls were made to Cuban residents in Miami, lying to them that they shouldn't vote for Obama because Fidel Castro endorsed him is a joke. Out with the old politics, and in with the new, but some of the OLDER folks can't seem to get over that, and resort to attacking African Americans because they chose to vote within their party lines and ideology, like they been doing for years.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Please....*



alphaorange said:


> "Try telling that to proud African-Americans who had tears in their eyes when they left the poll station, and we all know why they were crying." There couldn't possibly be a dumber reason to vote for him. Agree with his politics...fine. Vote for him because he is the same race...dumb. This whole election process has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the American people as a whole are really too stupid to vote for something this important. Neither candidate came remotely close to talking about anything that could really change this country in a meaningful way, but everyone picked sides and licked it up, just like the lap dogs we have become. We were screwed no matter what way this turned out..
> 
> What we have become is a lazy, self absorbed, population with a unhealthy sense of entitlement. You see people voting for the guy that they hope can do the most for them, whether its good for the country as a whole, or not. I'm thrilled that a black man can win....I just wished he was a guy with some real answers and understanding of what is needed.



Fox news reported that African Americans only increased in voting by 2 percentage points since the 2004 election in which approximately 90% of that population supported Kerry. In fact, African-Americans since the 1960's have had a history of voting Democrat because of the obvious appeal to our economic and social situation which has been fairly uniform as a result of institutionalized racism. Did this election hold particular significance to us? It did. I personally cried but does it necessarily mean that we voted for Obama because he was Black? For some it did but certainly not reflective of the African American community given our voting history. I doubt we were going to buck this particular trend in favor of John McCain, especially when it was clear that he was not the better choice. 

If we also care to look at suspicious voting history, look no further than ******* conservatives who have consistently voted Republican in the past. Many of these individuals live in financial situations that would be greatly improved by Democratic reform(heavy in social programs funded by federal government) but consistently choose the Republican ticket. Why? I'm not sure. I just find it interesting that many of these people became Republicans during the 1960's when Democrat's rolled out tons of Civil Rights reforms. This isn't to say that I think these people represent Republicans because most of my friends are Republicans but represent the sons and daughters of the economic elite in this country, clearly giving them an agenda to vote Republican. I will say that the intentions of your prototypical Republican voter like your "Joe Six-Pack" is extremely suspicious to say the least.

I personally voted for Obama for several issues that have nothing to do with race. For one, I'm not a particular fan of McCain's economic plan. Cutting taxes is fine and dandy for corporate America but what does that really do for the country as a whole? I understand the reasoning behind it is to allow businesses more money to play with in order to create jobs for others. That whole concept to me, however, is a load of ****. The agenda of a businessman is to make as much money as possible and its pretty clear that outsourcing jobs (an increasing trend) yields a greater profit (and clearly doesn't involve Americans). 

Why should they benefit, while we all suffer? All we really have to do is look back to the recent past. The Bush administration was characterized by many tax cuts and look where that has gotten us. In spite of all this, do you really think a smart businessman would invest in our economy in the state we're in? All Obama plans on really doing is restoring the same exact tax rate that these businesses had during the Clinton administration, in which, we had an economic boom. I'm certainly no expert when it comes to the economy but I know a little something about economic theory and principles. One thing I know is that the consumer (which for big business is primarily us) really is key to stimulating the market and Obama's plan for tax cuts of 95% of Americans certainly helps achieve that end. By helping us, we help business.

And then there's Sarah Palin...the most terrifying entity in American history (even moreso than Al-Queda). That heffer is dumb and there is no other simple way of putting it. Her nomination for VP was a ploy to get the real key minority in this country: white, middle-class women. I was personally insulted by her every time she had something to say. Given McCain's age, is that the person you really want running the country when you have the Magnum Cum Laude of Harvard on the opposing ballot, along with a VP who has had a **** load experience dealing with foreign policy issues (more relevant than ever for us). Palin and McCain's double talk were the two deciding factors for me and who I chose. I can honestly say that race never played a factor for me but at the same time recognize that I've never been more proud in my life (albeit short) to be a Black man in this country.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

Dean the Master said:


> Here's the thing, a lot of black voters vote for Obama just because he is black. He is no where near black, culture wise anyway. There is no white or black America, there is only the United States of America.
> Open your eyes, please help this society prosper.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqAiarOhC2U
> Here's the case.


Again, African Americans since the 1960's have traditionally voted Democratic. We definitely were not going to buck the trend for John McCain especially when most of his policies were out of touch to the issues that matter most to a MAJORITY of Americans regardless of race (if you hadn't noticed Obama won the popular vote in a landslide). For the record, Fox news also reported that African American voting increasing only 2 percentage points since the 2004 presidential election SO rest assured there was no mass conspiracy on our part to get Obama elected.


...And what the hell do you mean that Obama is no where near Black culture wise? In a society where you have so many cultures homogenized with one another, how do you even determine what is exclusively Black; especially when many Blacks today have no sort of ancestral connection to anything but to what originated here in this country and it's history? Should he portray stereotypes of Black culture and wear his pants half off his *** and throw in some ebonics in his speech for good measure? Is that what you are looking for? Do you know any Black people?

P.S., Howard Stern is not exactly the kind of guy that I'd turn to for political or social advice. You could take that or leave it if you'd like. I also find it interesting that there's been an issue with the issue of Blacks voting for Obama when there has never been an issue with conservative, small town Whites consistently voting for Republicans over the same span of time African Americans have voted for Democrats. I stumbled upon a clip of DL Hughley and his show on CNN via youtube (which surprised the hell out of me because I knew nothing of it before recently) and saw some equally troubling **** involving your prototypical conservative, small town Caucasian (which apparently you aren't concerned with). This time around, Hughley does not have 4-5 idiots (not confirmed to be African Americans) representing an entire race....especially with Stern who is looking for extreme cases for ratings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T2VCe4Um1I
Here's the case.


....I'm just thankful the right men one, who have the best interest in hand for all Americans and not a select few.


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## rocketeer (Oct 7, 2002)

*Re: Please....*



TwinkieFoot said:


> And then there's Sarah Palin...the most terrifying entity in American history.


wow.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Maybe you interpreted my post wrong*

No where did I say that Blacks voted for Obama because he was black. I said that those who voted for him BECAUSE he was black voted for the wrong reason. There were whites that voted for him for the reason he was black, too. Different internal reasons, but still, because he was black. Blacks because of a kinship and an affirmation of there race and whites because it make them feel better about themselves. A woman would have gotten some votes for the same reasons. My feelings and my post have nothing to do racial bias on my part...I simply don't care about it. For people to bring it up..WHICH I DID NOT...is foolish. I'm glad that I live in a country where anyone can get elected. My post was about people buying into a load of crap that was being peddled by either party. I will also tell you this KITTY. YOU are the clueless one and I mean it in the strongest terms possible. If you knew anything about history,sociology, and REAL economics instead of what you are being spoon fed you would KNOW that the economic policies proposed by Obama will be a disaster. Don't dare to tell me that because I am not black I can't see things...I have eyes. This country is now in the fast lane to Socialism and anyone who cannot see that is a fool. 

No one will talk about what the problems really are here because it makes them unelectable, but I'll give you a clue. The loss of manufacturing jobs and immigration. We now have more people than we have jobs for, which means that even legal (or illegal) immigrant from ANYWHERE is a 100% debit until you reach about 30 immigrants. That creates ONE job...for a debit of now 97%. Why do you think we need so much tax revenue?...The military? Please. We have lost upwards of 10+ million manufacturing jobs alone.
Most of those people have required at the very least, extended benefits. What should have happened is a moratorium on immigration and a large concentrated effort to bring back jobs so people can work and pay taxes instead of just being a recipient. I KNOW what the numbers are and what the situation is. I spent two years researching the effect of outsourcing manufacturing on the socio-economic system of the US. I am also a small business owner that employs seven people making good skill level wages. If his plan goes through, I will close up. I am simply not going to pay 56% in taxes for an income of over 250K so that others that make less can have more. BS. I am not alone either. Many small businesses (which are the largest emplyer in the US) will follow. It is not worth the risk/reward. I will welcome any civil discussion. For you to call me clueless shows exactly how clueless you are. 

Mike and Kiyaman, I meant no disrespect to your race, I sincerely promise you. For me it is only about politics.

One final note. Don't EVER confuse a diploma for an ability to lead of solve problems..no matter what field. It is merely paper representing the complete of a course of study..nothing more. I worked hand in hand with Physicists at Syracuse U. and Princeton and othersfor years. I can tell you for a fact that even though these guys were brilliant in their field (ALL of course were PhDs with ultra high IQs), they were fools in many ways..and simply ignorant in others.


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## ¹²³ (Jan 8, 2003)

_Click to enlarge._


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Maybe you interpreted my post wrong*



alphaorange said:


> No where did I say that Blacks voted for Obama because he was black. I said that those who voted for him BECAUSE he was black voted for the wrong reason. There were whites that voted for him for the reason he was black, too. Different internal reasons, but still, because he was black. Blacks because of a kinship and an affirmation of there race and whites because it make them feel better about themselves. A woman would have gotten some votes for the same reasons. My feelings and my post have nothing to do racial bias on my part...I simply don't care about it. For people to bring it up..WHICH I DID NOT...is foolish. I'm glad that I live in a country where anyone can get elected. My post was about people buying into a load of crap that was being peddled by either party. I will also tell you this KITTY. YOU are the clueless one and I mean it in the strongest terms possible. If you knew anything about history,sociology, and REAL economics instead of what you are being spoon fed you would KNOW that the economic policies proposed by Obama will be a disaster. Don't dare to tell me that because I am not black I can't see things...I have eyes. This country is now in the fast lane to Socialism and anyone who cannot see that is a fool.
> 
> No one will talk about what the problems really are here because it makes them unelectable, but I'll give you a clue. *The loss of manufacturing jobs *and immigration. We now have more people than we have jobs for, which means that even legal (or illegal) immigrant from ANYWHERE is a 100% debit until you reach about 30 immigrants. That creates ONE job...for a debit of now 97%. Why do you think we need so much tax revenue?...The military? Please. We have lost upwards of 10+ million manufacturing jobs alone.
> Most of those people have required at the very least, extended benefits. What should have happened is a moratorium on immigration and a large concentrated effort to bring back jobs so people can work and pay taxes instead of just being a recipient. I KNOW what the numbers are and what the situation is. I spent two years researching the effect of outsourcing manufacturing on the socio-economic system of the US. I am also a small business owner that employs seven people making good skill level wages. If his plan goes through, I will close up. I am simply not going to pay 56% in taxes for an income of over 250K so that others that make less can have more. BS. I am not alone either. Many small businesses (which are the largest emplyer in the US) will follow. It is not worth the risk/reward. I will welcome any civil discussion. For you to call me clueless shows exactly how clueless you are.
> ...



Baffling that you're so up in arms about the loss of industry/manufacturing jobs, yet choose to go on and on about immigration. Obama's policies are far more directed at keeping American industry in America than McCain's... McCain is captain Free Trade (see those industrial jobs fleeing south?) and a champion of the employer-based health care system, two things that cripple American industry. The fact that you recognize that losing American jobs is a problem yet favor McCain over Obama makes no sense.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Mike...*

I'm up in arms about the loss of manufacturing jobs because it is close to my heart. That is how I came to write my paper on it. I also know that this loss, more than any other reason, is the cause of the declining middle class, which everyone agrees is the backbone of this country. I didn't elaborate because it is simply more complex and not a very sexy topic for most....which is another reason it doesn't get attention. I spoke about immigration only because it is basically a cut and dried scenario with respect to gain/loss. There just isn't a lot more to say on that because the facts are simple and clear. Emotions cloud that issue. By the way, I am not a Mc fan either. I have gone the gamut from liberal to conservative to independent. Free trade is death to this country. When Clinton (also supported bi-partisanally)signed us up for NAFTA, we were told how in 20 years we would be reaping the benefits of open trade. Why, just having the rest of the world raising their standard of living would make things better for us. I bought in just like millions of others. It has been an abysmal failure for us, but helping Mexico (and Canada to a lesser degree). The problem, Mike, is that we are becoming a country of consumers, not producers. That is a path leading to nowhere. When I look around me I see people working in Wally World and Mickee Dees trying to make a living on jobs that used to be reserved for HS and college kids. Know why? Because all the real jobs have gone away.

Each party has good ideas and bad ideas, the problem being that we are forced to accept all of one or the other. Politics has become a team sport with each side having its rabid fans. Not good for you...not good for me..and not good for us. I actually feel bad for Obama on one front. He is coming into a tough situation and there is a lot riding on his success. I pray for his safety because of all the shaved head idiots out there. I did not vote for him and I do not agree with his policies but I hope with all my heart that he is right.

Lastly, there is nothing wrong with some having more than others. It is the carrot that we all dream of..the one thing that is a universal motivator. Take it away and you have nothing. I will absolutely help anyone I can, but that doesn't mean I'll give them money so they can have Sunday Ticket.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

¹²³ said:


> _Click to enlarge._


OMG 123, you made it to the Knick forum, I'm not used to seeing you in this setting. eace:


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Maybe you interpreted my post wrong*



alphaorange said:


> No where did I say that Blacks voted for Obama because he was black. I said that those who voted for him BECAUSE he was black voted for the wrong reason. There were whites that voted for him for the reason he was black, too. Different internal reasons, but still, because he was black. Blacks because of a kinship and an affirmation of there race and whites because it make them feel better about themselves. A woman would have gotten some votes for the same reasons. My feelings and my post have nothing to do racial bias on my part...I simply don't care about it. For people to bring it up..WHICH I DID NOT...is foolish. I'm glad that I live in a country where anyone can get elected. My post was about people buying into a load of crap that was being peddled by either party. I will also tell you this KITTY. YOU are the clueless one and I mean it in the strongest terms possible. If you knew anything about history,sociology, and REAL economics instead of what you are being spoon fed you would KNOW that the economic policies proposed by Obama will be a disaster. Don't dare to tell me that because I am not black I can't see things...I have eyes. This country is now in the fast lane to Socialism and anyone who cannot see that is a fool.
> 
> No one will talk about what the problems really are here because it makes them unelectable, but I'll give you a clue. The loss of manufacturing jobs and immigration. We now have more people than we have jobs for, which means that even legal (or illegal) immigrant from ANYWHERE is a 100% debit until you reach about 30 immigrants. That creates ONE job...for a debit of now 97%. Why do you think we need so much tax revenue?...The military? Please. We have lost upwards of 10+ million manufacturing jobs alone.
> Most of those people have required at the very least, extended benefits. What should have happened is a moratorium on immigration and a large concentrated effort to bring back jobs so people can work and pay taxes instead of just being a recipient. I KNOW what the numbers are and what the situation is. I spent two years researching the effect of outsourcing manufacturing on the socio-economic system of the US. I am also a small business owner that employs seven people making good skill level wages. If his plan goes through, I will close up. I am simply not going to pay 56% in taxes for an income of over 250K so that others that make less can have more. BS. I am not alone either. Many small businesses (which are the largest emplyer in the US) will follow. It is not worth the risk/reward. I will welcome any civil discussion. For you to call me clueless shows exactly how clueless you are.
> ...



I think my post was misdirected to you instead of Mr. "Howard Stern is my political officonado." I was trying to speak to a more general audience that feels Black people voted for Obama because he was Black, and you got caught in the cross fire. My mistake. I think you also misdirected your last post to me. Dorando was the one that hit you with the manufacturing claim.


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

SO HAPPY OBAMA WON. LIKE I TOLD A FRIEND OF MINE 4 YEARS AGO, OBAMA IN 08, IT WILL BE OUR YEAR. And now it is. Congrats to Obama, who will be a phenomenal president.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Maybe you interpreted my post wrong*



alphaorange said:


> No where did I say that Blacks voted for Obama because he was black. I said that those who voted for him BECAUSE he was black voted for the wrong reason. There were whites that voted for him for the reason he was black, too. Different internal reasons, but still, because he was black. Blacks because of a kinship and an affirmation of there race and whites because it make them feel better about themselves. A woman would have gotten some votes for the same reasons. My feelings and my post have nothing to do racial bias on my part...I simply don't care about it. For people to bring it up..WHICH I DID NOT...is foolish. I'm glad that I live in a country where anyone can get elected. My post was about people buying into a load of crap that was being peddled by either party. I will also tell you this KITTY. YOU are the clueless one and I mean it in the strongest terms possible. *If you knew anything about history,sociology, and REAL economics instead of what you are being spoon fed you would KNOW that the economic policies proposed by Obama will be a disaster. Don't dare to tell me that because I am not black I can't see things...I have eyes. This country is now in the fast lane to Socialism and anyone who cannot see that is a fool.*
> 
> No one will talk about what the problems really are here because it makes them unelectable, but I'll give you a clue. The loss of manufacturing jobs and immigration. We now have more people than we have jobs for, which means that even legal (or illegal) immigrant from ANYWHERE is a 100% debit until you reach about 30 immigrants. That creates ONE job...for a debit of now 97%. Why do you think we need so much tax revenue?...The military? Please. We have lost upwards of 10+ million manufacturing jobs alone.
> Most of those people have required at the very least, extended benefits. What should have happened is a moratorium on immigration and a large concentrated effort to bring back jobs so people can work and pay taxes instead of just being a recipient. I KNOW what the numbers are and what the situation is. I spent two years researching the effect of outsourcing manufacturing on the socio-economic system of the US. I am also a small business owner that employs seven people making good skill level wages. If his plan goes through, I will close up. I am simply not going to pay 56% in taxes for an income of over 250K so that others that make less can have more. BS. I am not alone either. Many small businesses (which are the largest emplyer in the US) will follow. It is not worth the risk/reward. I will welcome any civil discussion. For you to call me clueless shows exactly how clueless you are.
> ...



I hear people make comments regarding socialism but what is really wrong with it? We were very much a socialist nation during the Great Depression under the FDR administration. Those policies (and WWII) not only helped the country recover economically but propel us into a world power. The situation then and now are closely beginning to mirror each other, so again, why not give it a try if the agenda is to help Americans? Sweden and many neighboring European nations practice socialistic principles and are considered to be some of the happiest countries in the world at a fraction of the GDP per capita that we enjoy in the United States. We could make the American Dream something that is more in the realm of reality than fantasy and are choosing not to do that to line the pockets of a few. My dad is a business owner (mechanic shop) but I have not always enjoyed the luxuries I'm afforded now and have gotten an opportunity to see people legitimately suffer because of the way things are structured now. And for what, for kids my age to be pushing BMW's and Lexus' because of how much cash their parents are hording from their employees? I'm not saying they don't deserve some of the things they have but what I am saying is that what they have wouldn't be possible without the working class that seem to consistently be getting the short end of the stick.


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## Kiyaman (Aug 14, 2006)

*Re: Maybe you interpreted my post wrong*



TwinkieFoot said:


> I hear people make comments regarding socialism but what is really wrong with it? We were very much a socialist nation during the Great Depression under the FDR administration. Those policies (and WWII) not only helped the country recover economically but propel us into a world power. The situation then and now are closely beginning to mirror each other, so again, why not give it a try if the agenda is to help Americans? Sweden and many neighboring European nations practice socialistic principles and are considered to be some of the happiest countries in the world at a fraction of the GDP per capita that we enjoy in the United States. We could make the American Dream something that is more in the realm of reality than fantasy and are choosing not to do that to line the pockets of a few. My dad is a business owner (mechanic shop) but I have not always enjoyed the luxuries I'm afforded now and have gotten an opportunity to see people legitimately suffer because of the way things are structured now. And for what, for kids my age to be pushing BMW's and Lexus' because of how much cash their parents are hording from their employees? I'm not saying they don't deserve some of the things they have but what I am saying is that what they have wouldn't be possible without the working class that seem to consistently be getting the short end of the stick.



*Cosign Big Time.* 

With the country in such an economic backlash problem (1929 Wall St.) and Foreign Affairs looking so shacky with our long stay in Irac, I did'nt feel safe with another replubican President on the throne. 

Barak Obama getting elected President relieved alot of TENSION in America and around the world concerning "Fair Play". 


*RESPECT 
My Family Pray for Barak and Family well being at this stage
KIYA*


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## ¹²³ (Jan 8, 2003)

USSKittyHawk said:


> OMG 123, you made it to the Knick forum, I'm not used to seeing you in this setting. eace:


I love you.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Hey Twinkie..*

You are right about my post being mis-directed...my bad. IMO, there is absolutely nothing wrong with some socialist ideals. Health care and education come to mind. However, there is a steep price. Socialism stifles freedom, productivity, and innovation. The US became the world leader that it did because of capitalism. Maybe you or others would be satisfied to have a basic car, a tiny house, and very little else. That is what socialism will net you. Personally, I want more and I am willing to work to get it. I also came from a middle class family (lower middle). I have more than my dad because I worked for it. I don't desire to have a larger share taken from me because I did. As a businessman, I pay and treat my people very well. We make money because we excel at what we do. If I pay more, I am going to reduce my payouts in the form of benefits or wages, etc. I am deserving of any money I make because I take ALL the risks. It is ME they come after if the bills don't get paid. it is ME that had to invest very large amounts of money and time to get where I am. I just don't understand why I have to be penalized...and that is what it is....if some people are not as smart, or lucky, or industrious. I absolutely think we need to help people that TRY but cannot do it. I have no sympathy for the lazy or criminal. I guess my questions to you would be these:

1)What do you believe people are entitled to? 
2)What level of comfort are they entitled to?
3)What should be required of them to get these?
4)If people are unwilling to improve their life by working harder or going to school, should they still be entitled to a high level of comfort?

I think one advantage that I have over you in understanding the ramifications is that I have friends from all over the world that I made years ago. They would abandon their socialist and communist countries in a heartbeat to have a chance to live here in this capitalist country...almost no exceptions. Why? Because they hate not be able to improve their lot in life.

BTW, Mike, not all businessmen are like you portray. You may be mistaking CEOs of large corporations with the typical small business owner, and the difference is night and day. I personally believe that most people that support a socialist agenda are those that stand to benefit the most PERSONALLY. That says something.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: Maybe you interpreted my post wrong*



Kiyaman said:


> *Cosign Big Time.*
> 
> With the country in such an economic backlash problem (1929 Wall St.) and Foreign Affairs looking so shacky with our long stay in Irac, I did'nt feel safe with another replubican President on the throne.
> 
> ...


Iraq is really the only thing that I do not particularly agree with the Obama camp over. His agenda appears to involve removing the troops ASAP, which does not sound like the best strategy regardless of where that country's budget stands. There is far to little information available about the status of that country's infrastructure post-Saddam, which is key to determining when we should leave or not. A majority of the world hates us already and the last thing we need is to botch Iraq anymore than we already have.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Maybe you interpreted my post wrong*



alphaorange said:


> No where did I say that Blacks voted for Obama because he was black. I said that those who voted for him BECAUSE he was black voted for the wrong reason. There were whites that voted for him for the reason he was black, too. Different internal reasons, but still, because he was black. Blacks because of a kinship and an affirmation of there race and whites because it make them feel better about themselves. A woman would have gotten some votes for the same reasons. My feelings and my post have nothing to do racial bias on my part...I simply don't care about it. For people to bring it up..WHICH I DID NOT...is foolish. I'm glad that I live in a country where anyone can get elected. My post was about people buying into a load of crap that was being peddled by either party. I will also tell you this KITTY. YOU are the clueless one and I mean it in the strongest terms possible. If you knew anything about history,sociology, and REAL economics instead of what you are being spoon fed you would KNOW that the economic policies proposed by Obama will be a disaster. Don't dare to tell me that because I am not black I can't see things...I have eyes. This country is now in the fast lane to Socialism and anyone who cannot see that is a fool.
> 
> No one will talk about what the problems really are here because it makes them unelectable, but I'll give you a clue. The loss of manufacturing jobs and immigration. We now have more people than we have jobs for, which means that even legal (or illegal) immigrant from ANYWHERE is a 100% debit until you reach about 30 immigrants. That creates ONE job...for a debit of now 97%. Why do you think we need so much tax revenue?...The military? Please. We have lost upwards of 10+ million manufacturing jobs alone.
> Most of those people have required at the very least, extended benefits. What should have happened is a moratorium on immigration and a large concentrated effort to bring back jobs so people can work and pay taxes instead of just being a recipient. I KNOW what the numbers are and what the situation is. I spent two years researching the effect of outsourcing manufacturing on the socio-economic system of the US. I am also a small business owner that employs seven people making good skill level wages. If his plan goes through, I will close up. I am simply not going to pay 56% in taxes for an income of over 250K so that others that make less can have more. BS. I am not alone either. Many small businesses (which are the largest emplyer in the US) will follow. It is not worth the risk/reward. I will welcome any civil discussion. For you to call me clueless shows exactly how clueless you are.
> ...


Alpha its not the reader its the writer who is sloppy here , you can look in this above post for proof in which you in your 1st several lines try to clean up prior misconceptions, but then right afterwards you post that "blacks feel a kinship" with him.

not some , most or plenty of blacks , but just writing blacks as a general term once again puts you in the foolish position of generalizing 30 million americans as you have previously in this thread.

I for one dont feel that , I think he is clearly the better candidate though moreso due the complete ineptitude of his opponents than his actual credentials and if he runs the country like he ran his campaign the country will be better off for it.

but on to the topics at hand , top economist overwhelmingly support Obama's plan
and while you may not care for their PHD's if there is anything they would know this would be it.

as far as immigration goes , really i dont care , people come here for jobs and a better life , i'm not really worried about mexicans taking my way of life, its in essense an overload in unskilled labor and these things work themselves out usually pretty quickly, if anything i would crack down on off the books income so they wind up paying in like the rest of us.

i dont worry about Obama's leadership abilities i worried more about the lobbyists , religious right and the unseen hands that would have been surely around to help guide Mccain and Palin in their relative ignorance ...I mean c'mon on Mccain in a debate said he would buy all the bad morgages so americans can stay in their homes...a plan that surely would cripple us for deacades because no one would pay their morgages anymore and expect the gov. to bail them out.


i've basically have had enough of substandard intellects and overly greedy hands shaping policy .


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Grinch.....*

I never blamed the reader...I simply said it was misinterpreted for whatever reason. Also, being a PhD in Economics doesn't mean squat. They are all for 100% free trade....how's that working out? This is one area where theory never meets practice. Nafta working for you? Economists gave it the thumbs up. As far as immigration, if you can understand basic math, you can understand the problem. We have less jobs available than we have "willing and able" workers. If you add more workers, you exacerbate the problem. That is a fact and I would love to see how you rationalize otherwise. Know hat happens when these people don't find work, or displace already working people? They or the people they displace go on the public dole. Guess who pays? I also am not talking specifically about Mexicans so don't put words in my mouth. It applies across the board. I thought that I was clear that I did not support Mc and Palin, I just did not support Obama and his doomed policies. I will say that for you to assume that Americans would just not pay the government if they held the mortgages is just baloney. Owe any money for education loan? I have an employee that does. Guess what? They take it out of his check every week. He is a single parent. Who do you really think would get away without paying? 

Better go back and reread what I wrote about the Black voters. I said "those that voted for Obama because he was black..." not some, not plenty, not many, but simply the Black voters that used that as there reason. That one is on you, not me. I stand by that statement. I am very aware of the demographics and the different reasons for voting Obama. My statement was in response to something else posted. 
I agree with your last statement...

In essence, most of what I posted can be supported by facts and history. You statements are supported by a hope and a prayer. I hope its answered.....


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

regardless who was appointed it's going to be tough for a lot of Americans these upcoming years. Some sacrifices need to be made for the better of the country but this isn't the past where patriotism reigns. This is a ME first, country second era. People do not necessarily look at the big picture anymore.

Great win for barack though. He indeed showed that this is the land of opportunity.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*100% agree*

On everything you posted


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