# Bender... two practices down... no pain... so far so good :)



## jermaine7fan (Aug 19, 2005)

This was on Pacers.com today...

Keep doing it Bender!









Optimism Surrounds
Pain-Free Bender


By Conrad Brunner | Oct. 6, 2005
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jonathan Bender feels your pain. 
Of all the people that agonized over his prolonged absences the past two seasons, you think he wasn't at the top of the list? Of those frustrated by the constant tease of talent, you think he wasn't the most vexed? 

It's not like Bender doesn't want to play. It's not as though he derives some kind of odd pleasure from the endless isolation of rehabilitation. 

This summer, however, something unexpected happened. The pain in the right knee that kept him sidelined for all but seven games last season subsided. He found himself able to not only work out, but play regularly. 

And now, it's looking a lot like the wait might be over, and Bender just might be ready to fill a regular place in the rotation for the first time since the 2001-02 season. 

"I'm real confident to get started," Bender said. "I feel like I've been in a drought. I've been at the bottom of the bottom. I don't think I can get any lower than that. I hope not. It was just a terrible feeling, wanting to play and doctor saying one thing, feeling one thing, and everybody's attitudes, you know? 

"You go into a mode where you think everybody's looking at you in a bad way. I'm really looking to come up out of that, just play hard and be able to be a big part of the team from here on out." 

Bender has made a quick impression on his teammates with his performances in workouts even before training camp officially opened Tuesday in Conseco Fieldhouse. 



Jackson 

"Jonathan's amazing," said Stephen Jackson. "He's going to be a key part of this team. To see him out there running and jumping, he looks like the old Jonathan Bender – the high-school Jonathan Bender." 

Because he entered the NBA from Picayune, Miss., High, it's easy to forget Bender is still just 24 years old. He has been with the Pacers six seasons. But in the last three, he missed 172 games. First, the left knee flared up, requiring surgery. While recovering, Bender said he overcompensated with his right leg, leading to problems with that knee, leading to most of his problems the past two seasons. 

But an offseason of therapy under the supervision of renowned physical therapist Dan Dyrek has yielded remarkable results while generating very real optimism about Bender's prospects this season. 



O'Neal 

"He looks pretty good," said Jermaine O'Neal. "He's healthy. He looks very athletic, very energetic. He's been hurt for a couple of years but I think he's over it now." 

Bender also was busy trying to evacuate from the path of Hurricane Katrina, which ravaged his hometown as well as his New Orleans house in the suburb of Kenner. His family survived, but property was lost, so Bender put together a charity drive in Indianapolis, loading three tractor-trailer rigs with donated supplies and delivering them to the citizens of Picayune. 

Bender, who evacuated to Houston to avoid Katrina, soon had to head to Indianapolis when Hurricane Rita pounded the Texas Gulf Coast. 

"I did everything, from rehabbing in Boston (Dyrek's base of operations) to rehabbing in New Orleans to running from Katrina and rehabbing in Houston to running from Houston back here," he said. "I was everywhere doing everything as far as treatment and keeping my knees strong." 

That Bender was able to make it through the first two full days of practice without incident was a positive sign. In recent years, one good day of practice has typically been followed by a few days of pain and swelling. So far, so good. 



Carlisle 

"We've got to see, health-wise, where he's at as this thing progresses," said Coach Rick Carlisle. "He's been pain-free for a while. The signs are good. If he's available, he can help us. I know that." 

If he's available, Bender could be something of a wild-card for the Pacers in their quest for an NBA championship. Having an athletic 7-foot forward able to shoot the 3-pointer, post up and block shots while posing matchup nightmares for opponents could prove to be quite handy. 

"I can be that," Bender said. "You can say that. But it's all about coming out here, getting with the team and doing it."


----------



## Midnight_Marauder (Dec 1, 2003)

They say this every year about Bender....about how good he looks in training camp...then the season starts....and then the truth comes out


----------



## jermaine7fan (Aug 19, 2005)

Midnight_Marauder said:


> They say this every year about Bender....about how good he looks in training camp...then the season starts....and then the truth comes out


Nope... they talked about his pain in training camp last year... I don't know if he even practiced two days in a row during training camp last year... read the article... He would have one day of practice... followed by several days of pain... not happening right now...


----------



## Midnight_Marauder (Dec 1, 2003)

jermaine7fan said:


> Nope... they talked about his pain in training camp last year... I don't know if he even practiced two days in a row during training camp last year... read the article... He would have one day of practice... followed by several days of pain... not happening right now...



We'll see.....I hope this guy can get his career going...I am just not holding my breath...you feel me?


----------



## StephenJackson (Oct 28, 2004)

I'm in Bedner's corner 100%, and I agree with everything that was written. I've said it time and time again, it drives me insane how people talk about Bender as if he intentionally has knee problems. There have been no negative signs whatsoever this summer regarding Bender, everything has been completely positive. And that's how I'll stay, positive.


----------



## jermaine7fan (Aug 19, 2005)

Midnight_Marauder said:


> We'll see.....I hope this guy can get his career going...I am just not holding my breath...you feel me?


Definately! I guess I just like to be optimistic for him... I think his luck will finally start rolling this year... he is off to a good start so far... let's just keep hoping that he keeps it up... I just tried to check some archives to find out how he was doing starting last pre-season... he was playing... but I believe they were still more worried about him last year than this year... I really hope he can show us what he can do this year! I don't blame you at all for not believing what has been written... you are right... we have heard it before... I just feel like it is more in truth this year... I don't blame you one bit for your skepticism :biggrin:


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

StephenJackson said:


> I've said it time and time again, it drives me insane how people talk about Bender as if he intentionally has knee problems.


I know that Bender doesn't intentionally injure himself, but it's just become a given fact to me that he will get injured.



> There have been no negative signs whatsoever this summer regarding Bender, everything has been completely positive. And that's how I'll stay, positive.


That's how it is normally. He'll just fall down one day and have season-ending surgery again.


----------



## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

Midnight_Marauder said:


> They say this every year about Bender....about how good he looks in training camp...then the season starts....and then the truth comes out


Yeah i agree....... i don't want to start yet another big discussion about this since we've had like 3 big ones already in the past month, but i remember how Bender had a pretty big story last year in ESPN the magazine, with quotes from players and Larry Bird and himself, about how he's trained so hard and this is the year for him to break out.

I don't think Bender will breakout in Indiana, he needs a new scene, a new coach, new teammates and a new life basicially.... he needs a change. Pacers allowed James Jones to move for playing time since he wouldn't get any in Indy, and i think they should move Bender and let him start over again. Besides, i'd clear alot of money..... although that's probably the main reason why he's still here.


----------



## bigbabyjesus (Mar 1, 2003)

I'm not getting my hopes up.


----------



## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

I actually think he can step up and play this season. At times, when healthy he's shown some very positive signs. Unfortunately he just hasn't been healthy enough. Hopefully the long absence from the court he took last year allowed him to rest up and heal. Yes this kid has been in the league for a long time, but he's still very young. I personally still have some confidence in him, and I believe that he can get it done this year.


----------



## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

Who even cares about Jonathan Bender anymore? Even when he's healthy he's still a worse player than Austin Croshere so he should be sitting on the bench regardless.


----------



## Harry_Minge (Oct 4, 2005)

the only way bender will have a breakout is if he gets sent to jail and then escapes


----------



## DannyGranger33 (May 12, 2005)

I still say he blows out his knee tripping over his untied shoelaces...


----------



## jermaine7fan (Aug 19, 2005)

RP McMurphy said:


> Who even cares about Jonathan Bender anymore? Even when he's healthy he's still a worse player than Austin Croshere so he should be sitting on the bench regardless.


I do... he is more talented that Croshere... he is more athletic, a harder man to match-up against, just as good a shooter, and a better shot blocker... Austin might have him on rebounding, stealing, and passing... but the freakshow that Jonathan is... is what makes him so intrigueing to me... there is no one else in the NBA with his skill set... no one... that can be problematic for coaches trying to match up with him... I like him... and I think he will do great... if he can stay on the floor for the majority of the season... he has skills... he just hasn't had many opportunities to show them off... I really hope he does this year... so some of you haters will ease off of him... he doesn't want to sit and watch everygame... he wants to contribute... it is in God's hands... not his... if he can stay off the injured list this year... you may be eating some of those statements you just made... the dude can tear it up when he is able to play... I predict he will definately outshine the Cro... if he makes it on to the court.


----------



## StephenJackson (Oct 28, 2004)

jermaine7fan said:


> I do... he is more talented that Croshere... he is more athletic, a harder man to match-up against, just as good a shooter, and a better shot blocker... the only thing Austin might have on him is rebounding and stealing...



And I do too. I love the kid. He will make it onto the court with regular minutes this year. People will finally see that he has skills and that he can make it in the NBA. He's only 24! People seem to overlook that. I remember a young, skinny Rik Smits who took a few years to finally break through...and fans back then treated him the same way fans treat Bender now.

jermaine7fan, we are the only Bender supporters/believers here. But I'm just finally to have somebody in my corner!


----------



## jermaine7fan (Aug 19, 2005)

StephenJackson said:


> And I do too. I love the kid. He will make it onto the court with regular minutes this year. People will finally see that he has skills and that he can make it in the NBA. He's only 24! People seem to overlook that. I remember a young, skinny Rik Smits who took a few years to finally break through...and fans back then treated him the same way fans treat Bender now.
> 
> jermaine7fan, we are the only Bender supporters/believers here. But I'm just finally to have somebody in my corner!


Just say cut me Lou... and I'll be there with my razor :biggrin:


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

jermaine7fan said:


> I do... he is more talented that Croshere...


It depends on what your definition of talent is. Croshere is better at everything except shot blocking and isolation.



> a harder man to match-up against,


Guards steal the ball from him and big men push him to the floor.



> just as good a shooter


":laugh:



> there is no one else in the NBA with his skill set... no one...


I wonder why? Maybe it's that they can't succeed?



> that can be problematic for coaches trying to match up with him...


I'm just assuming, but coaches don't generally care about 3rd stringers.



> he has skills... he just hasn't had many opportunities to show them off...


Yes he has. Look at his career. He's played in plenty of games to show if his skillset.



> he doesn't want to sit and watch everygame... he wants to contribute...


He probably does. He just can't.


----------



## StephenJackson (Oct 28, 2004)

Wow. I'm going to make a record of ALL these extreme Bender-hater posts. And then I'm going to post them mid-season and see what's being said then. I bet even if Bender is our first man off the bench behind O'Neal and putting up solid stats, that Pacers Fan will still say that he sucks.

Edit: No hard feelings Pacers Fan. You know I love you haha.


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

StephenJackson said:


> Wow. I'm going to make a record of ALL these extreme Bender-hater posts. And then I'm going to post them mid-season and see what's being said then.


No one will be saying anything about Bender, because he'll be in a hospital having surgery on his knee.



> I bet even if Bender is our first man off the bench behind O'Neal and putting up solid stats, that Pacers Fan will still say that he sucks.


Statistics don't mean a thing to me. Bender could score 10 ppg (highly unlikely) off the bench for us and would be a cancer to our team, making me say he sucks again.


----------



## The Man (Aug 20, 2005)

Bender will be great this year. I know it.


----------



## jermaine7fan (Aug 19, 2005)

Fans were reporting good things about Bender at the Fan Jam... they said he contributed very well and looked comfortable on the floor... He may be a factor yet... I'm telling you...


----------



## MillerTime (Jul 6, 2003)

jermaine7fan said:


> Fans were reporting good things about Bender at the Fan Jam... they said he contributed very well and looked comfortable on the floor... He may be a factor yet... I'm telling you...


... based on FanJam. 

Does Fan Jam even mean anything? Isn't it basicially a marketing idea, to entertain the fans and get the city excited about basketball again? Isn't it similar to a high school "pep rally"?

Players go out there to impress the fans, and have alot of open space. Bender is a exciting player, therefore, if you give him an oppertunity (and space), he will have people leaving the arena with a smile. No one doubted he is not a electrafiny player, we just keep saying a. he won't stay healthy and b. even if he does, he won't be good enough to get the minutes to improve the team.


----------



## spongyfungy (Oct 22, 2003)

Vescey says Bender _may _be on the trading block : 



> For the first time since the Pacers drafted *Jonathan Bender* with the No. 5 overall in '99 (after obtaining it from Toronto for none other than *Antonio **Davis*) they're seriously thinking about dealing his fragile self.


But it's Vescey.


----------



## rock747 (Aug 3, 2004)

Actually if Bender is healthy, I don't think he would be bad. Remember two years ago him puttin up 20 pts in a playoff game. Just the fact that he can't stay healthy that makes him worthless. I honestly can't seeing him staying healthy this season either.


----------



## jermaine7fan (Aug 19, 2005)

MillerTime said:


> ... based on FanJam.
> 
> Does Fan Jam even mean anything? Isn't it basicially a marketing idea, to entertain the fans and get the city excited about basketball again? Isn't it similar to a high school "pep rally"?
> 
> Players go out there to impress the fans, and have alot of open space. Bender is a exciting player, therefore, if you give him an oppertunity (and space), he will have people leaving the arena with a smile. No one doubted he is not a electrafiny player, we just keep saying a. he won't stay healthy and b. even if he does, he won't be good enough to get the minutes to improve the team.


I should just stop trying... Bender isn't gonna get any love until people see him do something in a few regular season games... he may tear it up in pre-season... and you all will be saying the same things... He won't be able to do it all year... he is gonna get injured... I feel really sorry for Bender... no one is going to have faith in him until he has produced for a full season... poor guy... emotionally... not financially...




He is a Pacer... I can't believe how many of our fans are not in his corner... put yourself in his situation and try to see how it would feel... for the fans of your team to not like you as much as you guys do... if he just plain sucked at basketball... I could see the animosity towards him... but this is out of his hands... we should be supporting him... He wants to help our team... why would you dislike him... he is doing everything in his power to get back on the court... if he fizzles out... and never contributes as a Pacer... I won't dislike him... I will feel sorry for him... it is his dreams not being realized here... not ours... so who should be more mad that he can't play than Bender... come on guys... if you were Bender... would you not be wanting support from the fans of your team?


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

jermaine7fan said:


> I should just stop trying... Bender isn't gonna get any love until people see him do something in a few regular season games...


What's wrong with that? That really is all that matters.



> I can't believe how many of our fans are not in his corner...


I have the right to not like a Pacer for how he plays, or lack of it. I don't like Anthony Johnson or Bender, and Jermaine O'Neal is heading in that direction.



> put yourself in his situation and try to see how it would feel...


Great. Millions of dollars, front row seats, etc.



> if he just plain sucked at basketball


He has athleticism and an average jumpshot. His surgery might have even taken away his athleticism. If so, what's a guy with an equal jumpshot to me doing in the NBA?



> He wants to help our team...


And costs us money, along with disrupting our chemistry.



> why would you dislike him...


I don't dislike him as a person because I've never met him.



> he is doing everything in his power to get back on the court...


How do you know? He could just be sitting in a chair in his pool at his million dollar house.



> if you were Bender... would you not be wanting support from the fans of your team?


I'm sure Kobe Bryant also wanted support of the fans in his rape charge. He didn't exactly get it from everyone.


----------



## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

I wouldn't compare being a bust to being accused of rape, but other than that, I agree with the post above mine. Why should I be a fan of a player, if he's brought nothing but disappointment to my favorite team? Drafting Bender, and overpaying him when he became a free agent, has cost us many solid seasons out of Antonio Davis (who we traded for Bender) and Brad Miller (who we let go because we couldn't afford to keep him after we overpaid Bender and Croshere), as well as hurting our team chemistry. I like players who help the Pacers win games, and Bender has done the opposite of that throughout his career. Don't paint us as bad fans because we don't want this loser on the team anymore.


----------



## StephenJackson (Oct 28, 2004)

RP McMurphy said:


> I wouldn't compare being a bust to being accused of rape, but other than that, I agree with the post above mine. Why should I be a fan of a player, if he's brought nothing but disappointment to my favorite team? Drafting Bender, and overpaying him when he became a free agent, has cost us many solid seasons out of Antonio Davis (who we traded for Bender) and Brad Miller (who we let go because we couldn't afford to keep him after we overpaid Bender and Croshere), as well as hurting our team chemistry. I like players who help the Pacers win games, and Bender has done the opposite of that throughout his career. Don't paint us as bad fans because we don't want this loser on the team anymore.



But see, you are calling him a 'loser.' Are his injuries his fault? Nope. Is it his fault that the organization decided to pay him a lot of money? Nope. If you want to call anybody a 'loser,' call the people who made the choices to pay him that much losers. None of this is Bender's fault.


----------



## jermaine7fan (Aug 19, 2005)

RP McMurphy said:


> I wouldn't compare being a bust to being accused of rape, but other than that, I agree with the post above mine. Why should I be a fan of a player, if he's brought nothing but disappointment to my favorite team? Drafting Bender, and overpaying him when he became a free agent, has cost us many solid seasons out of Antonio Davis (who we traded for Bender) and Brad Miller (who we let go because we couldn't afford to keep him after we overpaid Bender and Croshere), as well as hurting our team chemistry. I like players who help the Pacers win games, and Bender has done the opposite of that throughout his career. Don't paint us as bad fans because we don't want this loser on the team anymore.


I did kind of imply that... sorry... didn't mean too... I just feel you should try to back a guy who wants to help your team... and is doing everything in his power to do so... especially when he has the tools to really help our team out if he can stay healthy... despite what Pacer Fan seems to think...and you do make some valid cases for costing the team with AD and Miller... but... he is trying... so try to cut him some slack... he has worked very hard... again, despite what Pacer Fan seems to think... but I don't see how he has affected our chemistry... 

I am just saying... having little faith in a guy being able to make it on to a court due to an injury is fine... but bashing him for it is not... you would be angry at some of the things that have been said on here... if you were Jonathan Bender... I just try to look at it from his POV... money doesn't always bring fullfillment... proving something does... so I hope he can prove himself... otherwise... even being a millionaire may not bring him true happiness...


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

jermaine7fan said:


> and is doing everything in his power to do so...


Again, we don't know that. Just because the guy is injured doesn't mean he's doing all he can to come back. He might, but that doesn't make him any better of a player.



> especially when he has the tools to really help our team out if he can stay healthy...


I'm sure his isolation plays where he turns the ball over constantly would greatly help the Pacers.



> despite what Pacer Fan seems to think...


I have no idea what he's doing. I'm just saying that it's not given that he's trying his hardest, just like it's not given that he's sitting in an easy chair watching his 640" x 720" inch TV.



> he is trying... so try to cut him some slack... he has worked very hard... again, despite what Pacer Fan seems to think...


Again, you don't know this. Even if he's trying hard, that doesn't mean he's a better player than our other 13 players.



> but I don't see how he has affected our chemistry...


He will if he plays. He loses the ball to guards on the perimeter, and loses the ball to big men in the post. On the defensive end, he can't guard anyone, and his weakside shot blocking might not even be good after his knee surgery.



> but bashing him for it is not...


I'm not allowed to insult a player because he's trying to make a recovery?



> you would be angry at some of the things that have been said on here... if you were Jonathan Bender...


I'm not Jonathan Bender, he doesn't read messageboards, and I could care less what he thinks.



> even being a millionaire may not bring him true happiness...


No one in this world is truely happy. I wouldn't suggest continuing, unless you want to go off topic and get into a philosophical argument with me.


----------



## RP McMurphy (Jul 17, 2003)

jermaine7fan said:


> but I don't see how he has affected our chemistry...


I don't think Bender is affecting our team chemistry anymore, but a couple of years ago, he was. I think it's important for players to believe that if they work hard and produce, they will be rewarded with money and playing time, and on the other hand if they don't work hard, or are just not any good, then they won't get paid and they'll end up on the bench. It would be nice if players didn't need that type of motivation, but they're human beings just like the rest of us, so they do.

When Isiah Thomas was the coach, our team chemistry was very bad because we didn't have that type of positive reinforcement, and Bender was the biggest example of that. He was given a big contract, and a spot in the rotation, that he never proved to deserve. Ron Artest was another example, Isiah pretty much allowed him to do whatever he wanted without any consequences. When you have that little accountability, it's predictable that your team chemistry will suck and you'll collapse just like we did that year.

Now that Rick Carlisle is the coach he doesn't put up with that nonsense anymore and our chemistry is a lot better. A lot has been written about how Carlisle got the most out of Artest in 2003-04, but I think it's almost as important that he stopped giving "entitlement" minutes to guys like Bender just because we spent a high draft pick on them. It looks like he's doing the same thing with David Harrison. Some fans wanted Harrison to get more playing time last year even though he's shown very little, but we gave minutes to guys who deserved them more and I think that's just great. I can't say enough about how much I love Carlisle.



> I am just saying... having little faith in a guy being able to make it on to a court due to an injury is fine... but bashing him for it is not... you would be angry at some of the things that have been said on here... if you were Jonathan Bender... I just try to look at it from his POV... money doesn't always bring fullfillment... proving something does... so I hope he can prove himself... otherwise... even being a millionaire may not bring him true happiness...


If you are a highly paid player who isn't accomplishing anything in his career, fans are going to complain about you and your salary. It goes with the territory. If Bender can't deal with people calling him a bust, then his ego is as fragile as his knees are. I mean, we're not saying the guy is a horrible person whose goal in life is to destroy the Pacers organization. We're just saying he's not a good basketball player.


----------



## jermaine7fan (Aug 19, 2005)

RP McMurphy said:


> We're just saying he's not a good basketball player.


That is what I am talking about though... he is an excellent basketball player... he just can't stay on the court because of some lingering growing pains... so don't fault him for not producing... he is doing everything he can to produce... it is up to God if he can display his talent or not...


----------



## jermaine7fan (Aug 19, 2005)

Pacers Fan said:


> Again, we don't know that. Just because the guy is injured doesn't mean he's doing all he can to come back. He might, but that doesn't make him any better of a player.So, you are saying that you don't have faith in the Pacers organization then... because... do you think Larry, Rick, or Donnie would have let him linger on our bench if he wasn't doing everything possible to get back on the court... give our team more credit than that... if he wasn't working his butt off to get back on the court... do you think he would still be on our roster... nope... he would have been cut... even though he would still been owed money... he would have been dropped for behavior such as you are suggesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No OT for me on that one... I am sure it would be very drawn out... I'll just say... you win... and be done with it :biggrin:


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

> So, you are saying that you don't have faith in the Pacers organization then... because... do you think Larry, Rick, or Donnie would have let him linger on our bench if he wasn't doing everything possible to get back on the court...


Yes. Every person is lazy at some point. Besides, we're still banking on his "potential".



> do you think he would still be on our roster... nope... he would have been cut...


We still think he "has potential".



> Where do you get all of this turnover stuff from...


Watching games and not basing my opinions off meaningless statistics.



> he averages less than one turnover a game in an average of 15 minutes per contest over his career... yup... sounds like he loses the ball evertime he touches it...


I should've said "loses the ball" instead of "turning it over". In most of the Bender games I remember, he drives to the basket and either dunks or loses the ball. In my memory are too many times where he cost us valuable possessions on the perimeter by driving to the basket, shooting a bad jumper, or not passing the ball to a wide open teammate. To counter your meaningless statistics, just to argue, Bender rarely gets the chance to isolate on offense. If he doesn't isolate, he does nothing. Having him in the game is either a detriment or like having a blank player.



> With the hard as nail leaders we have running this organization... I can garauntee you that this is not the case.


We don't monitor Bender 24/7.



> He is not a better player than 13 people on our roster... he is however a strong candidate for 7th or 8th man...


If you're talking about energy, then Saras, Freddie, Pollard, and maybe even Granger are better off the bench energy players than he is. Even Austin Croshere gives more hustle. Bender would have season-ending surgery if he tried to.

He will if he plays. He loses the ball to guards on the perimeter, and loses the ball to big men in the post. On the defensive end, he can't guard anyone, and his weakside shot blocking might not even be good after his knee surgery.



> I believe every player loses the ball on the perimeter and in the post...


Not as frequent as Bender does.



> fans at the Fan Jam claimed that he looked like he hadn't lost one bit of athleticism...


Fan Jam = no defense. I could look like Michael Jordan in a no-defense game.



> so I doubt your surgery theory is correct... he will still be a decent weak side help defender... but that is OK... we play a team oriented defense anyway... that plays to his skills defensively.


What defensive skills? It may help cover his flaws, but it doesn't make his skills better.

I'm not allowed to insult a player because he's trying to make a recovery?



> You are allowed to... I just don't think it is very nice... if you were in his situation would you like to be insulted?


I'm not, so I could care less. I'm sure I get insulted often, and I still don't care.



> You are right... he will prolly never see what you write about him... but God does... kharma my friend... kharma...


I don't believe in god or karma, so that doesn't help me from insulting players as I like.

If we want to continue this, we need to stray away from the religious/philosophical arguments. Just argue about the players, and not how much they care about us not liking them, because I'll keep responding to those comments.


----------



## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

First, no you couldnt play like Jordan in a no defence game. Secondly, you say you dont realy remember his game too well, but then you go out and make "statements" about his style of play. 

Bender doesnt just drive and dunk, hes one of the teams better shooters, from anywhere on the floor. Im in no way going to get caught up in Bender hype again, he probably wont be more than an underachieving bench player, but you have obvious blind Bender hate. 

I also remember when you used to hate on Croshere, and love on Bender, if not last year it was the year before, so I dont understand how you can all of the sudden act like Bender is the worst in the league, and now praise Croshere over him.


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

R-Star said:


> First, no you couldnt play like Jordan in a no defence game.


Of course that was an exaggeration, but no one should judge a player by how he plays in a fan jam.



> Secondly, you say you dont realy remember his game too well, but then you go out and make "statements" about his style of play.


His game is a bit fuzzy since I haven't seen him play consistantly in over two years, but memories of Bender helping the team don't occur very often.



> Bender doesnt just drive and dunk, hes one of the teams better shooters, from anywhere on the floor.


I'll take every PG-SF we have over Bender. Croshere also, and Jermaine over him for any jumpshot from 20 feet in. Hardly one of our best.



> I also remember when you used to hate on Croshere, and love on Bender, if not last year it was the year before, so I dont understand how you can all of the sudden act like Bender is the worst in the league, and now praise Croshere over him.


My opinions changed? Croshere isn't that great of a player, and I'm sure I'll go out of my way to insult him a few times this season, but he's a better player than Bender is/was/will ever be.


----------



## jermaine7fan (Aug 19, 2005)

Pacers Fan said:


> Of course that was an exaggeration, but no one should judge a player by how he plays in a fan jam.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No debates about God either... you believe what you want to believe... but I am done argueing with you... this is the second time that you have just plain worn me out rather than come up with good arguementative retorts... everyone is just an opinion...

I am basing his remaining athletic ability to what people saw at Fan Jam... I don't rely on anyones stats from that game... you made it sound as if I was saying that he is playing awsome cause of Fan Jam... but I am saying that they said he looked athletic as ever... so that puts your theory to rest of his shot blocking going down due to his surgery...

But you really do have to take statistics into account... it is a much better way to make a point than trying to scoop up memories that are distorted by your obvious Bender bias... He is a good player... whether or not he will be able to stay un-injured... is up in the air... but if he doesn't return... I assure you he did everything he could to try to... NBA players are monitored heavily in terms of their workouts... they know what Bender is up to.

What exactly is the difference between losing the ball and turning it over?

He absolutely does not lose the ball near as much as your memory tells you... documented stats say much different. I will trust those documents much better than the documents in your brain.


----------



## Pacers Fan (Aug 25, 2002)

jermaine7fan said:


> you made it sound as if I was saying that he is playing awsome cause of Fan Jam... but I am saying that they said he looked athletic as ever... so that puts your theory to rest of his shot blocking going down due to his surgery...


People look more athletic when a game doesn't feature defense.



> But you really do have to take statistics into account... it is a much better way to make a point than trying to scoop up memories that are distorted by your obvious Bender bias...


I liked Bender before he was injured the last time. Most of my memories are of me liking him.



> What exactly is the difference between losing the ball and turning it over?


Turnover = lose to other team

Lose the ball = Nearly losing it to other team by other teammate or original player grabbing it



> documented stats say much different. I will trust those documents much better than the documents in your brain.


You can trust statistics more than my memory, but I've had enough experience to know that statistics don't mean very much when analyzing a player. I really don't like to call someone a great passer if they average 9 assists per game. I don't like to call someone a great scorer if they average 20 ppg. I don't like to call someone a decent ball handler if they don't average a ton of turnovers.


----------



## southeasy (Jun 11, 2003)

i always saw a lot of likeness in bender & stromile swift, who are both basically my favourite player. 

i hope bender shows up this year & shows whats up


----------

