# Triangle offense too complicated?



## Locke (Jun 16, 2003)

How many players have we seen come to the Lakers over the past 4 years who've shown promise either on another team or in college only to look like they completely forgot how to play ball when they have to run the triangle offense? Examples: Glen Rice, Isaiah Rider, Lindsey Hunter, Tracy Murray, Mitch Richmond, Samaki Walker, Kareem Rush, Jay Williams (on the Bulls, since they also run it).

Is it that the triangle is too complicated, do players just not buy into it, or is it that the pressure of playing with the Lakers is too much for some guys? I mean I don't understand how a guy like Tracy Murray could go from being a 3-point marksman his whole career then come to the Lakers and shoot 21% from the arc.

The thing is that Phil has won NINE championships running this system so something seems to be working. Remember though that Phil has always been in a position where he's had some of the league's finest at his disposal (i.e. MJ, Scottie, Kobe, Shaq). Did the system benefit those guys and make things easier for them or were they just that damn good where they would've won no matter what system they were involved in? By the way: MJ, Scottie, Kobe and Shaq = ZERO rings without Phil and his triangle. But it seems like some players just aren't comfortable with it at all and it takes them out of their games. Maybe because it goes against much of what has been taught to them their whole lives as far as basketball is concerned.

And do you think some free agents will want to stay away from the Lakers because they don't want to be involved in the system? Maybe because they think they may not like/understand it, look bad and have their careers go down the drain like some of the the aforementioned players have had.

What do you guys think about this?


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## Kyle (Jul 1, 2003)

Look at the people you listed. 

Glen Rice just stands around and shoot threes 

Isaiah Rider gets drunk and smokes weed

Lindsey Hunter was brought in for 3s and defense and he couldn't even do that right (he's like %.930 in the playoffs :no: )

Tracy Murray was injured and in the preseason he was lighting it up

Mitch Richmond was old and was also injured

Samaki Walker was a piece of trash and a waste of a contract. The reason he couldn't fit into the triangle was because he was always trying to take outside shots and force himself upon everyone. 

Kareem Rush was a rookie. What do you expect?

So my answer is no that the Triangle isn't too comolicated we just need better talent.


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## Sean (Jun 7, 2002)

Good post Locke, but credit where credit is due: Tex Winter is the man behind the triangle. It was his invention so to speak. Phil has said it on a number of occasions.


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## jazzy1 (Jul 16, 2002)

I think the triangle is an over-mystified, overly complicated , overly hyped offense. It comes down to having Shaq and Kobe. The triangle has yet to work without having the games best players running it MJ and Pippen before now. 

I think Kobe ans Shaq commanding so much of the ball has to do with those other players struggling. It's hard to play with 2 dominant forces and those players could't fit the roles that well. 

The only good thing I like about the triangle is that if run correctly it keeps the defense spread out which is essential for any offense to run effectively. It's a structured system that requires players to be in certain spots all the time. 

I don't think players really consider it when they think about coming to LA its just something to learn like any other offense. 

Phil Jackson's handling of players is the differnce, he makes players by in and he makes role players believe that they are a big part of the team.


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## MJ23theGOAT (Jul 4, 2003)

This post has triggered me to register to these boards...

The triangle offense is in no way overly complicated. How do I know? I ran it in the last 2 years of my high school basketball career. I agree it is a very entricate offense but getting accustomed to it is not that hard. The learning curve isnt all that sharp. The thing is...getting everyone to learn and understand it at the same time so it works. Its all about being in the right spots. If you know where to be and what moves to make at certain points in the offense...it is pretty unstoppable. 

For whatever new players the Lakers pick up...They will be forced to learn the offense as quick as possible which will be pretty hard considering the amount of time they have till the season. I suspect they will probably lose alot of games early because everyone wont be clicking. It only takes 1 person to screw up the offense. If youre not in the right spot...it wont work. So people take up this offense pretty quick but others it might be a lil to hard.


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## Locke (Jun 16, 2003)

Thanks for the insight MJ23, and welcome aboard.  I've never run it myself so I don't know the ins and outs of it, but it just seems like Phil Jackson is VERY particular about who he wants on his teams and on the floor at all times, suggesting that maybe he doesn't think certain players are cut out for the system. And I guess the reason the Lakers never make any mid-season trades is because he doesn't feel like the players he took in would pick up on the triangle fast enough to be able to be productive. So if this is the case, if one single person can screw up the whole thing by being out of position, is it really worth it to use this type of offense? Like I alluded to in my other post by bringing up Jay Williams, look at the Bulls for the past 2 or 3 years. They've been running the triangle too and look where it's gotten them. Nowhere.


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## Kyle (Jul 1, 2003)

The Bulls don't have a star.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

The Bulls also haven't had the same roster for more than 2 years and it's been a very young team at that.

I think the triangle is very good. But it's also a philosophy that has to be bought into. But you see what happens to players who do figure it out. Robert Horry and Derek Fisher and Rick Fox are great examples of players changing their game around the triangle.

I don't think the lakers run as many cuts off of the offense as the bulls used to.

I think it's a great offense if you have a dominant post player who can pass. Which is what the bulls had in Jordan and the Lakers have in Shaq.

The Bulls are building their team around the triangle, so it should be very interesting to see how things eventually work with that.

It's a great offense for a team. But it does tend to irritate slashing creative players like Kobe and MJ when he wasn't in the post.

I don't really know the complete intricies of the offense, I thought that was a very interesting post from MJ23. Is there a type of team you would or wouldn't run the triangle with? Becaues Dallas tryed it with Jackson, Mashburn and Kidd I believe, and it didn't seem to work. What's the best type of lineup for the triangle offense?


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## MJ23theGOAT (Jul 4, 2003)

Thanks guys for the welcome...

I think the one major thing different from all offenses that makes this stand out from the rest is when youre learning the offense...you need to know EVERY POSISTION of the triangle because at any time you may find yourself in that posistion during the game. This was particulary important in high school basketball because size is not as abundant in the nba. This ...on top of knowing what cuts to make at certain points in the offense ..makes it a little confusing. 

As far as what players are perfect for the triangle? Its more of a true team oriented offense. Like I said...one person out of place really screws it up. Unlike most offenses where you stand around and just watch someone go iso...theres a constant flow of movement. Its just a combination of having court smart players and players who can process and understand the concepts that will be thrown at them. Hopefully if Malone and Payton sign they will be able to catch on fast.


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## Sean (Jun 7, 2002)

welcome MJ23theGOAT.

I have mentioned the triangle offense in many of the post game posts we have here in this forum. It can really be a thing of basketball beauty when it's done well. When the Lakers run it well, they win. When they don't run it well, it usually didn't lead to a W. Some guys have had and probably always will have trouble with it, see Stanislav. He comes form a european free flowing run and gun type offense and never quite understood where to be in the flow of the offense. Madsen started picking it up, especially after he got some solid minutes. Rush is about 50/50, pargo is bit better than that. 

Dallas attempted to run it back when Cleamons was the head coach. He learned it in Chicago, under Jackson and Winter. The Bulls still attempt to run it, with Cartwright, a guy who won championships as a player using the system under Jackson and Winter. The biggest thing is not only getting players to go along with it, see Kobe's "boring" comment, but having the staff to help. Tim Floyd tried it right after the Bulls breakup in 99 and was unsuccessful.

It really takes the right combination of players and coaches to make it succeed.


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## Limee (Jun 2, 2003)

It seems both the players picked in this years draft have a high basketball IQ as well as being good passers. Hopefully they should be able to learn and fit in with the triangle.


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## Sean (Jun 7, 2002)

Welcome to BBB Limee, how did you find out about us?


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## Limee (Jun 2, 2003)

Thank you, I was actually looking for sites in the build up to the NBA Draft. They had it on live for the first time ever in the UK. I was also looking for a more mature discusion forum and this one seems pretty good. I don't post much but always like to read other fans opinions.


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## Kyle (Jul 1, 2003)

How come I never got a welcome  ?


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## Limee (Jun 2, 2003)

Welcome Kyle. How did you find out about these boards?


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## Sean (Jun 7, 2002)

Sorry Kyle, I wasn't trying to not include you as well as others, welcome everyone!


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