# New; My thoughts:



## CavsTalk (Jun 10, 2003)

I go around a lot of Cavalier boards and I see the same things, but I don't get why.

I don't get why you call the team leader in assists selfish.

I don't get why people think Lebron can run the point, NEXT YEAR.

I don't get why people think Lebron is going to be an All-Star next year.

So I am just putting my thoughts out there...

I think nobody is going to get traded this offseason, why? Paul Silas is the coach. That makes a difference because, HE DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE HAS. He can't trade something he doesn't know what is worth. How can he approve the trade of Wagner when he has no clue if he can work with this team. How can he trade Davis when he doesn't know if he will take more or less shots. How can he trade the best C in the east?

The best part about it all is it is all TALK. Something people want, and for the good, won't get.

Trading Ricky Davis is idiotic....it just isn't smart at any level. Last time I checked, I couldn't find ONE player that avg 20+ PPG 5 APG 5 RPG that makes the amount of money he does. AND HE IS JUST GETTING STARTED. Last year was his first year ever starting. He is what, 23 years old (24 Sept..) and you want to trade him...trade him for players like Donyell Marshall...Al Harrington. Those players are what they are....ROLE PLAYERS THAT ARENT GETTING ANY BETTER. Ricky is growing. Silas is a great coach, did anyone see what he did with Jamal Mashburn? Ricky is a terrific player and we got him locked up for six more years. He will be a top five wing player in the NBA in two years, that's a guarantee. His O is great, his D is good and he can take over games and put highlights on everywhere. His heart is HUGE. Nobody wants to win more than he does. He is the hardest working player on the court every single night, down 30 or up 30. He does charity work and other great things OFF THE COURT. HE DOESN'T GET IN TROUBLE WITH THE LAW AND IS A GREAT ROLE MODEL. So what, he tried to get his own rebound..and? People on this board are willing to welcome Ruben, I beat my wife and smoke everynight, Patterson but want Ricky to go because he takes a couple more shots or tries to get his own rebound? Who do you really want...what has Patterson proved? Besides break the law and play so-so basketball when he isn't beating up his teammates? We have one of the best talents in the NBA and we want to get rid of him instead of working with him...amazing.

How do you know he doesn't know how to play unselfish basketball? Did you even watch the Cavs play the last two months of the season? I would come to the conclusion that many of you didn't watch the games. Many of you wouldn't have noticed that Ricky avg 20 PPG and *8 ASSISTS PER GAME* the last two months of the season, that would be around the same time Smart took over. Smart is a fine assistant coach, not a head coach kinda guy, but if he can get into Ricky like that....what could Silas do?  

Add to that, Lebron is supposed to be the next best thing...I have played against him, he is huge..like most HSers they won't do great their first year. But his body is NBA ready, which means so much more.....ask Amare. But tell me the last time a HSer that was a guard that came out of HS and did well his first year......actually, ANY POSITION? The fact is, there has never been a guard do good his first year and there has only been ONE HSer ever have a good year, that is Amare, a PF. Lebron is not going to come in and average 20+ PPG, 7 RPG and 7 APG...IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! BE REALISTIC. Lebron will hover around the 10 PPG mark, 3 RPG and 3 APG. He isn't Magic Johnson either, HE CAN'T HANDLE THE ROCK. In time he may become a point foward like Pip, but he will NEVER be Magic. He can't handle the rock to do that. He is not going to be a successfull PG for his career, he may be able to run it for periods at a time like Pip but his lack of handle will slow that. Lebron is better suited to be our SF of the future next to Ricky at the two.

Darius Miles....why trade him now? He has no value. He is in Chicago working hard and Silas said he likes Miles's game. I know he is a FA after the year, he knows it too.. Your damn right he is going to get better. Let himself work his stock up and then you take advantage of his work and trade him at the deadline if he won't extend with us.

Wagner also...why? You can say all you want about his rookie year, if it wasn't for injuries he would of been ROY. He was scoring at will at the begining then hit the wall and got hurt. He is an amazing talent as well. If Lebron is unselfish as everyone says, we don't need to worry about all those shots. They will come. The Mavs don't seem to have a prob. with all their scorers, why do we have to have one? Silas had a system down in NO without a true PG and did well with Wesley and Davis, both tweeners. Silas is smart enough to work a system of the future for Lebron and Wagner, with that much talent you would be foolish not to. And there is no telling if we sign a PG in FA, we have a ton of money.

Z-In the East with so few and in the west with so many, why do we want to get rid of Z? There is a reason why the East has only won only won game in the last 7 games of the Finals, THEY HAVE NO BIG BODIES. Z is the only true C that has talent in the East, Brad Miller is a joke. He is a legit threat that no East team can stop. He wasnt at 100% last year, he is only getting healthier and is only going to get better...he will shine for us.

My thing is, DON'T FORGET WE WERE THE WORST TEAM IN THE LEAGUE LAST YEAR. We won 17 games, not exactly great. Too much talent is something we should be proud of. Let this season play it's self out because we have so many question marks that we really don't know what we have yet until we play.

Next year is the year we should make moves, because with one season under our belts we know where we are at.


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*Welcome Cavstalk*

For the most part I agree..... some minor quibbles tho....

before I agree that LBJ cannot play point in the NBA, I'd like to see him actually go up against the extreme talent he has never faced before. To say that he will or won't excel at any position is a bit premature at this point.

I also think that he will have a little better stats than you project, mostly because Paxson is gonna DEMAND that he get major minutes, and I think he can "stumble" into 10, 3, and 3 easily. Like any rookie, he's gonna have his peaks and valleys, but I think he'll hit 13-15 pts, 4-6 rbs, and 4-5 assists. If DaJaun can come in and score like he did, LBJ will be able to do as well too, plus being a more well-rounded presence on both ends of the floor.

Speaking of Wagner, I agree with you, INITIALLY he did score at will, but it wasn't the injuries that started to shut him down, it was game film that his opponents watched. He's short (and always will be), he's not as quick as some thought (and will probably only get marginally quicker), he can't create space to get his shot off consistently (yet), and defenders forced him to his left and shut him down (hopefully correctable). I am not convinced he will be anything but a spark-plug off the bench (like Vinnie "the microwave" Johnson). DaJaun, Miles, and someone like Smush coming off the bench is NOT a bad thing... that's for sure!

Having said that, I too think Silas and Paxson will keep most of the team intact... for now. They MIGHT make a trade to bring in a vet PG, but I really don't think Ricky is gonna be involved unless it is for someone pretty darn good. Selfish triple-double attempts aside, he is still one of the crowd favorites, and Paxson and Gund are aware of that. But... Ricky has to convince Silas that he has matured, so that Silas doesn't trade him AGAIN!


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## BEEWILL (Apr 13, 2003)

Eddy Curry is the best center in the East #2.J.Collins


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## CavsTalk (Jun 10, 2003)

Maybe in time Curry will grow to be a top C.....but right now? No, he is not the best C in the East. J Collins, won't be.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BEEWILL</b>!
> Eddy Curry is the best center in the East #2.J.Collins


Sorry, but 2 months of good play and a good game against Shaq is not enough to make you the best center in the league. I am not speaking negatively about Curry because I believe that he will be a heckuva center, however he has to do it for an entire season before I start lauding that kind of praise on him. 

Collins isn't even close to being the best center in the east. People speak negatively about Z's shooting percentage Collins is significantly lower and the Cavs don't have a Jason Kidd to get him the ball on the block. By the way if you look at the head to head matchups Z destroyed Collins.


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## BEEWILL (Apr 13, 2003)

you guys are missing the point. 

IT WASN"T JUST TWO MONTHS IT WAS THE SECOND HALF OF THE SEASON AND IF HE PLAYED AS MANY MINUTES AS Z WE WOULDN"T EVEN BE HAVING THIS DISCUSSION



SECONDLY AT THIS POINT WAS THE POINT OF THE QUESTION! 


AND AT THIS POINT OF TIME CURRY IS AND WILL BE A BETTER CENTER THAN Z FOR THE REST OF FOREVER.


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## BEEWILL (Apr 13, 2003)

bULLS HOLLA BACK DOORMAT:laugh:


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Of course you lost credibility with the "Collins is the second best center in the east comment." But I will play along and mind you I think that Curry is going to be a very good center in the pretty near future. 

What evidence do you have to argue that Curry is the best center in the east? Well other than your bias? You say that if Curry had played the same minutes he would not be having this discussion? Well this is one of the few times that per 48 minute stats actually are relevant. Per 48 minutes Z scored more than Curry, he had more rebounds than Curry, he had more blocked shots, more assists. It seems that the only meaningful stat that Curry beat Z was in fouls.

Oops, I did neglect to mention field goal % which Curry is better than Z (he does have better post moves than Z). But I'm not saying that Curry is a bad player I just don't know why Bulls fans seem to think he is without question the best center in the East.


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## BEEWILL (Apr 13, 2003)

Because If he would have taken as many shots as Z with that kind of FG% I don't know.


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## BEEWILL (Apr 13, 2003)

per 48 min pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeassssssssssee dude was 19 in the first half of the season. Z looks like Vlade in the twilight of his career.



J.Collins is a solid Center. jumpshot, rebounds etc.



Name the top 10 centers in the east and lets see?


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## Wagner2 (Jun 29, 2002)

*Top Centers*

1. Illgauskas
2. Curry
3. B. Miller
4. J. Collins
5. Antonio Davis
6. Pat Garrity

Who knows? I guess the east really is watered down. Haywood? Doleac? WOW, I can't name 10.


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## BEEWILL (Apr 13, 2003)

Magloire, Battie, Ratliff, Kurt Thomas


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## shazha (Nov 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>CavsTalk</b>!
> I go around a lot of Cavalier boards and I see the same things, but I don't get why.
> 
> I don't get why you call the team leader in assists selfish.
> ...


After reading your post, i realise maybe some of us have been a bit harsh on Davis and miles. But sometimes addition by subtraction is exactly what a team needs. Ok im not too sure about silas, i dont think he is the right man for the job. I was hoping for Larry Brown or Mike Dunleavy. Silas has a habit of making Good players look and play great. But he has not yet developed one superstar under his reign.

2nd thing. Why do the mavs get along with so many offensive talents? Because they are a team filled with solid shooters. We are a team filled with scorers or scorers to be. Wagner a bench player? Your dreaming. I actually think this guy will be better than LeBron. Garnett and Kidd get recognition for single handedly keeping his team in the game (something leBron will do). But Kobe and Iverson get worshiped because they win games in the clutch, when it counts as well as keeping their team in the game (something Wagner will do). 

I also got a thought for you, what if ricky performs extreamly bad not having enough shots to get him into a rhythm. What if he has streakily bad nites one after another. What then, his trade value will be very low because of his huge contract. If the Cavs believe that LeBron and Wags are their future and their staff get to see them more than any of us. Who are we to argue. Why not get a proven vet to compliment these guys.

Carlos Boozer? im not high on this guy. I was glad the cavs picked him, but i did not want him to start. I see him getting decent minutes off the bench. We need a good veteran PF. 

Think thats bout it. LeBrons not our saviour. He is the gel that will keep our performers in Zeek and Wags together and running smoothly.


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## BEEWILL (Apr 13, 2003)

Ricky Davis is supposed to shoot. There will be enough shots to share 20+ for Wag & LJ. Kobe gets off 50 shots playing with the best player in the league. Rdavis is 2 years younger than Kobe and not a skip hop and much of a jump from Kobe's ability's.


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: New; My thoughts:*



> Originally posted by <b>shazha</b>!
> 
> Ok im not too sure about silas, i dont think he is the right man for the job.
> 
> ...


shazha,
I highlighted the comments of yours that I disagree with... here's my take....

Originally I wasn't sure about Silas, but after more thought, I'm glad we picked him. He's a past pro, he's a big man, and he's black.... all factors that I think he can use to his advantage to get through to some of our problem children/youngsters. I just don't see Ricky Davis giving Van Gundy any respect, and I personally don't think Larry Brown deserves any respect (he's a vagabond, a mercenary coach.... I VERY glad we didn't get his unloyal butt). I also think Silas is THE PERFECT coach for LeBron... sorta like a father figure.

Wagner, not a bench player, and better than LeBron? Hmmm... not from what I saw last year. LbJ has not proven anything yet, but Wagner has A LOT of work to do. I hope he does, but the fact remains is that he is still short.... and short SG's are ususally bench players. That, and it is real obvious that Wagner will not be a PG... he doesn't have that mentality. He's a shooter. He's not the next AI. He's not as quick as many other SG's. He's an average dribbler, and a basic around-the-horn passer. Yes, I see him as a bench player- on this team, and on 90% of the other teams too. He's not a bad player, but I don't see "superstar" or even "all-star" for DaJaun. But that's just my opinion.

Also, I heard an interview with Silas where he said he was open to seeing if LeBron could play point. If so, LeBron will play pg, Davis will be SG, and they will still try Darius at SF. Also, trades can happen, but it doesn't sound like that is an area the team management is looking at right now. Paxson said that Minnesota HAS NOT talked to them or Ricky Davis's agent about trades. It is all internet rumor. That may or may not be true, but that is what he said.

Ricky's huge contract???? Where did you get that from? Ricky has a very FRIENDLY contract. He is no where near the max, it is a reasonable contract for a good length of time... (I'll get you the details if need be). That is one of the things that makes Ricky attractive to other teams....he has a really GOOD contract.

Boozer. I am 1000% opposite your view about Boozer. I've posted my views on him in other threads, Boozer is the man for Clev at PF. I love his game, his professional attitude, his shooting range, his ability to take it hard to the rim... everything. I don't see Clev getting another PF to start, maybe a backup PF for cheap since Mihm isn't much.... but you feel different, which is cool. Who do you think they should get... Rasheed Wallace? Jermaine O'Neal? Elton Brand?


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## CavsTalk (Jun 10, 2003)

Boozer is a legit 15-10 guy....like I said, half the NBA doesn't even have a starting PF that put up the stats he did.

Bottom line is, he is still going to grow. His shot has to get better, when that happens, he becomes very productive. He will eat minutes, rebound, score if needed, word hard. What more do you want out of a starting PF?

Wagner could be an all-star. I guess a lot of people missed the begining of the season when he was letting the NBA have it. They made adjustments to him, your right. Every rookie has that happen.

Wagner is a great scorer. He is bigger and stronger than AI. He can get to the lane, he has to grow but unless you forgot this as well, he is only 20.

Wagner is not a bench player....but he hasn't shown he can start yet, that's why I said have him come off the bench.

He can run the one, just don't let him run the point. There is a difference between bringing the ball up and running the offense. With the talent on this team, there is no need for someone to run the offense right now. Just get the ball up the court and work it from there. Silas made it work in NO, he can make it work here.

As for Silas...I can't see one thing wrong with him.

Brown is un-loyal, Van Gundy inherited a very talented team....no coaching and they still would have had the same success.


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## BEEWILL (Apr 13, 2003)

brown is very loyal. He just wants a teaching challenge/ Ring


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## CavsTalk (Jun 10, 2003)

Yeah, that's why the 6ers was his longest stint as a NBA coach.....he won't be in Detriot for more than three years.


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## BEEWILL (Apr 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>CavsTalk</b>!
> Yeah, that's why the 6ers was his longest stint as a NBA coach.....he won't be in Detriot for more than three years.



I doubt that. He'll stay longer than the contract.


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## tidho (Jul 29, 2002)

This is tiring...

Curry may eventually be better than Z ever was, but he isn't yet. If he where as good he'd be getting more minutes.

The Bulls were 30-52 last year. If they were half as talented as the people on this board think they are they would be a play-off team not a lottery team. 30-52.

If Chicago had one the lottery, they'd be building a statue for LeBron, not questioning his game (jelousy is an ugly thing).

Wagner can play PG if the offense isn't running through him. Point Forward LeBron will be handling the rock. Bulls fans will remember a couple of guys playing PG pretty well that where actually undersized shooting guards - John Paxson & Steve Kerr - how soon you forget.

Boozer is solid, leave him alone.

LeBron can play in this league. His first year might be tough, but the consensus of those that actually know what they're talking about is that he is the best HS player yet (this includes Chandler & Curry).

Ricky Davis isn't going anywhere. 20 points, 5 boards, 5 assists.
He also has an incredibly team freindly contract for six more years. He makes under $5M and puts up those numbers. Who else does - no one? Q: How much are the Bulls paying Jalen Rose? A: More. It ain't broke, don't fix it.

Paul Silas did wonders for Mashburn, no reason to think he can't get it done here.

I look forward to reading the pathetic attempts that will undoubtedly be made to discredit the comments above.


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## Mongolmike (Jun 11, 2002)

*Yup*

tidho, you are speaking the truth! 100% correct-a-mundo!!! Great points!


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## CRAW-SOVA (Jun 17, 2003)

As of right now as in right now I believe Eddy Curry is the Best Center in the East right now.


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## tidho (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>CRAW-SOVA</b>!
> As of right now as in right now I believe Eddy Curry is the Best Center in the East right now.


To be the man, you've got to beat the man. Whoooooo.

Stats per 48 minutes...

Z / Curry

Rebounds 12.00 / 10.89
Assists 2.56 / 1.24
Blocks 1.10 / 0.54
Steals 3.01 / 1.91
Points 27.52 / 25.98

Curry isn' t the man - yet.


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## DYNASTY (Jun 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>tidho</b>!
> 
> 
> To be the man, you've got to beat the man. Whoooooo.
> ...


whats per 48 minutes stats go to do with, wait what stats period got to do with anything. What about how many shots Z forces and what about how many points compared to Eddy Curry's FG% would he make if He took as many shots as Z.


Point is Eddy Curry surpased Z in early March and thats the way the ball bounces.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

I admit that Curry played well the last couple of weeks of the season but to answer your question what would happen if he took more shots. Chances are his shooting percentage would not be as good. And I agree that 48 min stats are generally useless but in this situation I believe that they prove that Curry is not there yet.


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## tidho (Jul 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DYNASTY</b>!
> 
> 
> whats per 48 minutes stats go to do with, wait what stats period got to do with anything. What about how many shots Z forces and what about how many points compared to Eddy Curry's FG% would he make if He took as many shots as Z.
> ...


Early March? How very specific. Do you have a graph or something?

Per 48 minute stats shows productivity, especially in assists, steals, blocks, and rebounds - where Z is superior in each case. These numbers are very relevent.

For scoring you have a point about the number of shots taken and FG% is important. The FG% is reflective of the type of offensive game each player is bringing to the table. 

Curry dunks a lot on breaks because he runs so well. Much of Curry's offense in half court are Mark West (mentioned because he used to shoot 65% from the feild) style garbage buckets - a valuable contribution, but one that tends to overstate the FG%.

Z plays away from the basket more in the half court set, partially because he can hit jumpers and partially to protect his feet(note that he still out rebounds Curry). As for Z forcing a lot of shots, remember that the Cavaliers didn't have a point guard. That leads to all sorts of problems, one of which is players having to force up a lot of shots.

I never said I didn't think Curry would be better, he just needs to perform for more that a few weeks at the end of the season before I'm ready to beleive he's superior.


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## DYNASTY (Jun 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>tidho</b>!
> 
> 
> Early March? How very specific. Do you have a graph or something?
> ...


Eddy Curry can hit some jumpers if he weren't primarily trying to be a true Center. The foot injury excuses are for the wnba. Centers are supposed to be built for the post. Did Z lead his team to more wins or more wins against playoff teams then Curry I think not. 
One more thing are you also factoring the respect of the refs are not there yet for curry meaning he can't be that aggressive to get more rebounds because of foul trouble from ticky tack fouls?

another thing It wasn't a few weeks it was the entire second half of the season when He became a STARTER. His adjustment period was in feb. by the middle of march he had figured it out and surpased the level that Z plays.



But listen to this if you were playing 1 on 1 with someone and you beat them because you were older but they were progressing each time. You beat them 5 times there were 3 games left and the younger guy had finally found his game and won the final 3. Is there no way he is better than you now because he didn't win all 8 or more 4 of those games?


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## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Curry dunks a lot on breaks because he runs so well. Much of Curry's offense in half court are Mark West (mentioned because he used to shoot 65% from the feild) style garbage buckets - a valuable contribution, but one that tends to overstate the FG%.


I agree with you that Z is easily a better player right now, but the above statement is simply not true. What you're describing is Tyson Chandler- the vast majority of Curry's point come from him posting up in the halfcourt offense and putting moves on the defenders. Curry has excellent footwork and touch around the basket, and he is developing an array of post moves. He does not get very many garbage buckets because the Bulls are not a very good fast-break team, and when they do fast-break it is usually Chandler that finishes because he runs better than any of the Bulls' big men.


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## DYNASTY (Jun 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> I agree with Dynasty that Eddy Curry is easily a better player right now, but the above statement is simply not true. What you're describing is Tyson Chandler- the vast majority of Curry's point come from him posting up in the halfcourt offense and putting moves on the defenders. Curry has excellent footwork and touch around the basket, and he is developing an array of post moves. He does not get very many garbage buckets because the Bulls are not a very good fast-break team, and when they do fast-break it is usually Chandler that finishes because he runs better than any of the Bulls' big men.


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## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Eddie Curry is not the best center in the East. Not by a longshot.

I agree with those who say he needs to do it consistently for a whole season before we can start making this kind of claim.

However, he did show a lot of what we can expect in the future for the last half of the season. At least on the scoring end.

He has serious problems. He fouls too frequently. And he's a terrible rebounder for a guy his size and playing his position. Even with his vastly improved play from about mid-february till the end of the season, he only grabbed 10+ boards 4 times over that span. FWIW, Z did it just 5 times over the same span...

He did score 20+ points 8 times, which is a huge step forward in his offensive development. Even so, Z was a BETTER scorer over the same span.

Now, will Curry be the best in the East? Barring injury and with continued development at this pace, he will be the best in the East, if not the whole NBA. And possibly by the time he's old enough to be a college graduate.

But even that is pure speculation and nobody knows the future for sure.


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## DYNASTY (Jun 18, 2003)

those fouls are mainly a function of his respect from the refs at this point. rebounds were hogged mainly by TC.


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## DYNASTY (Jun 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>cavsfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Eddy Curry can hit some jumpers if he weren't primarily trying to be a true Center. The foot injury excuses are for the wnba. Centers are supposed to be built for the post. Did Z lead his team to more wins or more wins against playoff teams then Curry I think not.
> ...


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## IAMGREAT (May 22, 2003)

I don't know why you would say that he can't handle the ball. I do think that his handle is overrated but to say that he can't handle the ball is extreme. I've seen him play in many games and his handle is suitable and will get better because he is ambidextrous.


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