# Andrew Bogut EXPOSED!



## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

Andrew Bogut has been exposed after the pre-draft combines.

*13 reps at 185 lbs*
- Rashad McCants had 15 (6'4, 207)
- Julius Hodge had 15 (6'7, 210)
- Deron Williams had 15 (6'3, 203)
- Luther Head had 14 (6'3, 185)
- Antoine Wright had 12 (6'7, 200)
- Hakim Warrick had 11 (6'9, 219)
- Chris Paul had 10 (6'0, 175)

*A vertical of 33"*
- Taft, May, Turiaf all had 33"
- Diogu, Frye, Villanueva had 31"

*Horrible lane agility time at 12.06*
- Villanueva was at 10.86
- May was at 11.04
- Simien was at 11.05
- Taft was at 11.26
- Turiaf was at 11.50
- Frye was at 11.60

*Overall ranking of 60th out of the 75 participants.*
-------------

*Odd and ironic fact, the Caucasian participants...* - _10 listed on lists I've found._

David Lee, finished 11th overall (of 75)
Rudy Fernandez, finished 56th overall (of 75)
Andrew Bogut, finished 60th overall (of 75)
Martynas Andriuskevicius, finished 73rd overall (of 75)
Ersan Ilyasova, finished 74th overall (of 75)
Luke Schensher, finished 75th overall (of 75)

Jason Klotz, slowest player at the camp, 2nd worst vertical.
Luke Schensher, last in pre-draft combine, 1 rep at 185 lbs, worst vertical.
Travis Diener, 1 rep at 185 lbs.
Marcin Gortat, top C in event, 18 reps at 185 lbs.
Taylor Coppenrath, 2nd worst vertical.

...

*Top 5 slowest players:*

_Jason Klotz
Andrew Bogut
Ersan Ilyasova_
D'or Fischer
Torrin Francis

*Worst verticals:*

_Luke Schensher
Jason Klotz
Taylor Coppenrath
Martynas Andriuskevicius_
Wayne Simien

Don't tell me Caucasian basketball players are on par with African-American players when it comes to athleticism and that there's no difference.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Bogut is a Center. Why should anyone care that he doesn't move as a fast guards or forwards? Man, people focusing on Bogut's race as a means for him not being at least a decent player, obviously have no clue what basketball is. When you have actual skills and hand eye coordination, coupled with the requisite size, you can be successful.

I don't like Bogut's big mouth, but man some of you are just so ridiculous that I hope he becomes an all-star ASAP, just so you will shut up.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

HKF said:


> Bogut is a Center. Why should anyone care that he doesn't move as a fast guards or forwards? Man, people focusing on Bogut's race as a means for him not being at least a decent player, obviously have no clue what basketball is. When you have actual skills and hand eye coordination, coupled with the requisite size, you can be successful.
> 
> I don't like Bogut's big mouth, but man some of you are just so ridiculous that I hope he becomes an all-star ASAP, just so you will shut up.


He's a centre, he should be able to out-rep many of these guards... which he failed to do. He also showed to be very slow. That said, I think race is a factor and this is more than enough proof that to disregard race as one is ignorant.

Btw, I'm not racist... it's just the proof... it's in the pudding, babe.


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## rapsfan4life (Apr 10, 2004)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> Andrew Bogut has been exposed after the pre-draft combines.
> 
> *13 reps at 185 lbs*
> - Rashad McCants had 15 (6'4, 207)
> ...



Who the hell thinks that?? Everyone knows white people are not on par athletically with black people. It doesn't mean there isn't white guys out there that can kill a black dude athletically.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

He's 7'0. How many big guys excel at the bench press? He's slow and he's a Center. Now if you could find the data on all the Centers who have come into the NBA and how quick they were, then you'd have something.

You're saying he's slow and comparing him to swingmen and guards. Of course he's slow. He's a legit 5 man. I guess Shaq taints everyone's views. Not every big man was as nimble as Shaq for his size. 

So I guess Bogut will suck because he's white huh?


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

LOL...if this exposed Bogut, than Dwight Howard, Al Jefferson and Emeka Okafor must have been exposed last year:

Dwight Howard 7 reps 35.5" 11.21 sec.
Emeka Okafor 22 reps 34" 12.32 sec.
Al Jefferson 3 reps 30" 13.08 sec.
Andrew Bogut 13 reps 33½" 12.06 sec. 

Much of a difference? Maybe it's because Bogut is white....


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## Reep (Jun 4, 2003)

Yeah, I don't get the point of this. You bash Bogut because he has the same vertical as some of the respected PFs in the draft? He can touch two feet over the rim! What's so bad about that. He is a center, and I don't know if I care that my center doesn't run the agility drills as fast as my guards.

These results have no effect whatsoever. 

I wish they would so he would slip down to #3 for Portland. 

I thought this thread was going to be about something interesting like he flashed him self at some bar or something.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Bogut is weak. Nothing we didn't know already. He's still a very skilled 7-footer.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

HKF said:


> He's 7'0. How many big guys excel at the bench press? He's slow and he's a Center. Now if you could find the data on all the Centers who have come into the NBA and how quick they were, then you'd have something.
> 
> You're saying he's slow and comparing him to swingmen and guards. Of course he's slow. He's a legit 5 man. I guess Shaq taints everyone's views. Not every big man was as nimble as Shaq for his size.
> 
> So I guess Bogut will suck because he's white huh?


In terms of speed, where did I compare him to guards?

Original post...

*Horrible lane agility time at 12.06*_
- Villanueva was at 10.86
- May was at 11.04
- Simien was at 11.05
- Taft was at 11.26
- Turiaf was at 11.50
- Frye was at 11.60_

... they're all bigmen.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> In terms of speed, where did I compare him to guards?
> 
> Original post...
> 
> ...


This is funny, because the only one who has a remote chance of being better than Bogut is Sean May. Besides the rest are PF's. True PF's, while Bogut is your Center. 

You show bums like Turiaf and Villanueva and then have the gall to compare them to Bogut. I mean, have you watched them play?


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

DHarris34Phan said:


> LOL...if this exposed Bogut, than Dwight Howard, Al Jefferson and Emeka Okafor must have been exposed last year:
> 
> Dwight Howard 7 reps 35.5" 11.21 sec.
> Emeka Okafor 22 reps 34" 12.32 sec.
> ...


Howard and Jefferson were 18 years old, whereas Bogut is 20.

Okafor out-repped and out-jumped Bogut... by 7 reps and 2 inches.

You can't compare a NCAA sophomore to a HS senior.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

HKF said:


> I mean, have you watched them play?


Good question.....I guess if combine times meant success, Harold Minor would be the best player of all time.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

HKF said:


> This is funny, because the only one who has a remote chance of being better than Bogut is Sean May. Besides the rest are PF's. True PF's, while Bogut is your Center.
> 
> You show bums like Turiaf and Villanueva and then have the gall to compare them to Bogut. I mean, have you watched them play?


I wouldn't take any of those guys over Bogut, but to see the obvious difference in athletic ability is interesting. Tell me, what do you think of the obvious trend we see in these results?


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

For the record, big men usually struggle at the bench press because they have long arms that work against them.

And Bougut is still going to be good, so who cares?


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## Amplifier (Feb 7, 2005)

rapsfan4life said:


> Who the hell thinks that?? Everyone knows white people are not on par athletically with black people. It doesn't mean there isn't white guys out there that can kill a black dude athletically.


Except in weight lifting. Ironic Bogut is so low.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

David Lee finished 11th. I guess there should be a ton of draft prospects that should be ashamed at finishing behind him. Especially all of the players that were slower than his 10.80 Lane Agility time.

Stats like these are just a small piece of the pie. Everyone needs to go back and look at the 1995 NFL Draft and the selection of Mike Mamula at #7. Why did he go that high? Because he could do wonders in a workout at the combine.


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## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

There must be something against bigs on the bench because hodge benched more than most of the bigs there.


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## vadimivich (Mar 29, 2004)

I really like Marvin Williams. A lot. I think he's the best player in the draft.

However, the absolute idiots championing him here on this board make me want to stab myself in the eye with a pencil. Please, just shut up.


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> In terms of speed, where did I compare him to guards?
> 
> Original post...
> 
> ...


 "...and the idiot of the year award goes to..."

I don't understand your logic...why would you ever want to match up a legit center against some motley crew of tweeners and power forwards ? Bogut has a vertical that is better than, or at least equals a few of them...AND he's taller than all of those guys. What's your point ? He's a low post banger with the size to score consistently down low. Why would you want him trying to take guys off the dribble from just inside the 3 point line ? Lane agility is of no consequence for him. 
Also, who ever proclaimed Bogut to be the second coming of Kevin Garnett as an athelete ? It's common knowledge that African American atheletes are naturally better than other races ! You're arguing with a ghost...you should do something a little lower on the idiot scale, like running into a brick wall.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> Howard and Jefferson were 18 years old, whereas Bogut is 20.
> 
> Okafor out-repped and out-jumped Bogut... by 7 reps and 2 inches.
> 
> You can't compare a NCAA sophomore to a HS senior.


Check your math. Last time I checked, 22-13=8 and 34-33.5=0.5


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> I wouldn't take any of those guys over Bogut, but to see the obvious difference in athletic ability is interesting. Tell me, what do you think of the obvious trend we see in these results?


Man, I didn't see much difference in terms of athletic ability on the basketball court. Them test don't mean squat to me. Bogut is a better prospect than all of those guys, regardless of marginal athletic differences. 

He's being exposed as an avg. athlete? Who didn't know he was an avg. athlete? 

I'm not going to go through this again, but you judge basketball players individually. I don't like when people stereotype me, so I don't know why you're doing that to Bogut. Unlike many of the "American" white stiffs that were big men, Bogut actually can play the game of basketball. He actually has talent and skills. Please stop lumping him in with the Jason Collier, Brad Lohaus, Travis Knight's of the world.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> David Lee finished 11th. I guess there should be a ton of draft prospects that should be ashamed at finishing behind him. Especially all of the players that were slower than his 10.80 Lane Agility time.
> 
> Stats like these are just a small piece of the pie. Everyone needs to go back and look at the 1995 NFL Draft and the selection of Mike Mamula at #7. Why did he go that high? Because he could do wonders in a workout at the combine.


You're getting me all wrong...

I'm not saying he'll be bad because he's Caucasian, but that anyone who says Caucasians ballers are on par with African-American ballers in the athletic department clearly is out to lunch.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> You're getting me all wrong...
> 
> I'm not saying he'll be bad because he's Caucasian, but that anyone who says Caucasians ballers are on par with African-American ballers in the athletic department clearly is out to lunch.


I take it, you mean White basketball players all around the world huh? So how what do you think of Andre Kirilenko? Or Chris Andersen? Or Mike Miller? Or Vladimir Radmanovic? 

These guys are all just as athletic as the majority of black athletes in the NBA. In the cases of Radman (6'10), Miller (6'8) and AK (6'9), they are top notch athletes, for their size.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> I'm not saying he'll be bad because he's Caucasian, but that anyone who says Caucasians ballers are on par with African-American ballers in the athletic department clearly is out to lunch.


So somehow Bogut getting "exposed" proves your point? LOL.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> You're getting me all wrong...
> 
> I'm not saying he'll be bad because he's Caucasian, but that anyone who says Caucasians ballers are on par with African-American ballers in the athletic department clearly is out to lunch.


This is life, there are no absolutes. Each individual is a case by case basis. Lee is a better athlete than most of the players in the draft. The next time I judge a professional basketball player on their athleticism will be the first.


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## sMaK (Jun 13, 2002)

This is one of the worst threads I've ever seen.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

HKF said:


> I take it, you mean White basketball players all around the world huh? So how what do you think of Andre Kirilenko? Or Chris Andersen? Or Mike Miller? Or Vladimir Radmanovic?
> 
> These guys are all just as athletic as the majority of black athletes in the NBA. In the cases of Radman (6'10), Miller (6'8) and AK (6'9), they are top notch athletes, for their size.


Once again, not all... but in all likelyhood, take the most athletic white player in this draft... put him up against the 9th or 10th most athletic African-American player and see who wins.

Not every player... obviously, but it's a *factor*.


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## Marvin Williams Jr. (Dec 18, 2004)

DHarris34Phan said:


> So somehow Bogut getting "exposed" proves your point? LOL.


Two parts to the original post.

*Part 1:* Bogut exposed.
*Part 2:* Ironic fact.

Hence the seperation of the two points with "------------------".


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## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

So what is ur point? Bogut is going to get pushed around the second he hits an nba gym by any african- american center? There is a reason why bogut is being projected number 1. He is better than like 3/4 of the centers in the game right now, maybe more. The things here in the combine can be developed later in his career. He can get faster, he can get stronger. You can't teach a 7 foot big man somethign called natural talent. He is a cordinated 7 footer who can post u up, hit a jump shot, and rebound. Bringing race in this makes no sense because it is a generalization. Yes, it can be proven that african americans are better athletes than one of the caucasion race, but it doesn't necesarrily mean that african americans are better basketball players, which prolly could be proven wrong.
What I am trying to get to, if race had anything to do with the draft, then Andrew Bynum would be picked over andrew bogut since they are typically the same exact body type, just different races. Ha, their names almost match up too.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> Once again, not all... but in all likelyhood, take the most athletic white player in this draft... put him up against the 9th or 10th most athletic African-American player and see who wins.
> 
> Not every player... obviously, but it's a *factor*.


Does everyone calmly explaining to you over and over that you're being idiotic have no effect?

Again you are generalizing. And again you are overrating athleticism vs. actual basketball talent.

Basketball is a game of skill, it's not a track meet. Look at the teams playing in the NBA finals. Two highly skilled teams. Relying on their execution moreso than athleticism.


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## AZwildcats4 (Feb 9, 2004)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> Howard and Jefferson were 18 years old, whereas Bogut is 20.
> 
> Okafor out-repped and out-jumped Bogut... by 7 reps and 2 inches.
> 
> You can't compare a NCAA sophomore to a HS senior.


Then you can't compare Okafor to Bogut einstein. He's 23.


Just give it up. Bogut was in no way exposed. Thats just absurd. His combine numbers really weren't unexpected. Everyone knows that he's slow laterally, and 13 reps is not terrible. Anyway, he is still going #1, and even if he doesn't it won't be because of this. Once again your arguments against Bogut are futile.


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## agoo (Jun 1, 2003)

sMaK, any thread that references Serge Zwikker, George Zidek and Brad Lohaus cannot possibly be the worst thread. Though this one is trying its best.

If Bougut was black, this thread wouldn't exist. He's an average athlete who has all the skills to be a good player. Would you prefer great athletes with average skills? You might have fun dunk contests in practice, but you won't be winning a lot of games.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

So what exactly was Bogut exposed of?

That he hasn't been training for these drills?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Well I'm penciling Bogut in to be pushed around by the following Black Centers:

Mark Blount, Jerome James, Nazr Mohammed, Mamadou N'Diaye, Samuel Dalembert, Marc Jackson, Mikki Moore, Theo Ratliff, Adonal Foyle, Erick Dampier, Lorenzon Wright, Dikembe Mutombo, Jason Collins, Jarron Collins, Francisco Elson, DJ Mbenga, Calvin Booth, Dan Gadzuric, Tony Battie, Kelvin Cato, Brendan Haywood, Michael Stewart, Ervin Johnson and Michael Olowokandi

Now, it's pretty obvious that all of those boys were blessed with more athleticism than fine young Mr. Bogut, so maybe I'll take them all over him.  Yes, there are American Black Stiffs too.


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## Darius Miles Davis (Aug 2, 2002)

Not lost on me is the fact that this thread was created by a poster named Marvin Williams Jr. Hmmm, have we an agenda here?


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

cpawfan said:


> So what exactly was Bogut exposed of?


Maybe that he is a good athlete....blasphemy, hes white!


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## sMaK (Jun 13, 2002)

agoo101284 said:


> sMaK, any thread that references Serge Zwikker, George Zidek and Brad Lohaus cannot possibly be the worst thread. Though this one is trying its best.


 Serge Zwikker...:laugh: 

This thread wouldn't exist if Marvin Williams wasn't in the draft. He's just mad that a white guy might be drafted over Marvin Williams, a black super athlete.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

sMaK said:


> He's just mad that a white guy might be drafted over Marvin Williams, a black super athlete.


Who jumps 1 and a half inches higher than Bogut....


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## OwnTheBlocks (Jun 10, 2003)

AZwildcats4 said:


> Then you can't compare Okafor to Bogut einstein. He's 23.
> 
> 
> Just give it up. Bogut was in no way exposed. Thats just absurd. His combine numbers really weren't unexpected. Everyone knows that he's slow laterally, and 13 reps is not terrible. Anyway, he is still going #1, and even if he doesn't it won't be because of this. Once again your arguments against Bogut are futile.



Also, in the bench testing he shouldn't compare Bogut to one guy who is his age that he outbenched (Paul, even though Paul has been lifting 3-4X a week for years now, ex-gf's younger bro played HS with him), and a group of juniors and seniors who have at least 1-2 years of age and bigtime D1 weightroom experience on him

Basically this thread was started by a 16 year old fanboy, who is mad because Bogut will be drafted ahead of his precious hero, and likes to spew racist propaganda


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## Vincanity15311 (Jan 30, 2005)

DHarris34Phan said:


> LOL...if this exposed Bogut, than Dwight Howard, Al Jefferson and Emeka Okafor must have been exposed last year:
> 
> Dwight Howard 7 reps 35.5" 11.21 sec.
> *Emeka Okafor 22 reps 34" 12.32 sec.*
> ...


how was okafor exposed...*22 REPS* Maybe in the speed..


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## MarioChalmers (Mar 26, 2004)

Vincanity15311 said:


> how was okafor exposed...*22 REPS* Maybe in the speed..


The "below average" vertical at 34? Or the speed? It's not a big deal, the thing is, he wasn't exposed, and Bogut wasn't exposed either. 

I don't know about anyone else, but if I had three pages worth of messages telling me I was an idiot, I'd just shut up.


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## sheefo13 (Jul 13, 2002)

Damn, al jefferson did really bad......


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## Vincanity15311 (Jan 30, 2005)

gian said:


> I don't know about anyone else, but if I had three pages worth of messages telling me I was an idiot, I'd just shut up.


we're gonna b on page 4 soon...


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Vincanity15311 said:


> how was okafor exposed...*22 REPS* Maybe in the speed..


I am not saying Okafor was exposed. But if this guys says Bogut was exposed, then Okafor and Howard, who didn't post insane marks, were exposed than too...especially since Bogut is an inch taller than those guys.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

sheefo13 said:


> Damn, al jefferson did really bad......


...still didn't see him getting pushed around.

Bench press is very hard if you have long arms and have not specifically trained for the exercise.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

I'm surprised so many people are talking about blacks being naturally better athletes than whites, as if it was genetic.

What year is this, again?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

I evaluate players based upon what I see.Honestly I wonder what it is that makes some people act so silly over Marvin Williams when he basically demonstrated little to make any sane observer believe he will be anything more than a very good player in the NBA.

I don't care about these tests unless they are used to compare players who are comparable when they get out on the court.Andrew Bogut will be a good NBA center and not much else,but he's going to help his team because of his skills as a passer.That is the reason that I would take him over Marvin Williams.It's very simple to me I want a player to help my team win the game.When Williams goes to Atlanta he won't have to worry about that very much no matter how silly his sycophants behave.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

Diable said:


> I evaluate players based upon what I see.Honestly I wonder what it is that makes some people act so silly over Marvin Williams when he basically demonstrated little to make any sane observer believe he will be anything more than a very good player in the NBA.
> 
> I don't care about these tests unless they are used to compare players who are comparable when they get out on the court.Andrew Bogut will be a good NBA center and not much else,but he's going to help his team because of his skills as a passer.That is the reason that I would take him over Marvin Williams.It's very simple to me I want a player to help my team win the game.When Williams goes to Atlanta he won't have to worry about that very much no matter how silly his sycophants behave.


Centers have a hard time helping their teams with passing unless they command double teams. I am not convinced he will be double teamed in the league.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

MemphisX said:


> Centers have a hard time helping their teams with passing unless they command double teams. I am not convinced he will be double teamed in the league.


If he doesn't get double teamed, he has the post skills, footwork, and range to take his defender one on one...pick your poison.


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## DK (May 8, 2005)

cpawfan said:


> Check your math. Last time I checked, *22-13=8*


Am I seriously the only person who noticed that? :rofl: 

Anyway, these workouts aren't pointless, but they aren't the be-all-end-all either. Most of the points I was going to make (Bogut's a center and therefore has a disadvantage in speed, bench press, etc.) have already been stated.


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## kawika (May 7, 2003)

speedythief said:


> I'm surprised so many people are talking about blacks being naturally better athletes than whites, as if it was genetic.
> 
> What year is this, again?


It's because race-baiting never seems to out of style. 

Does anybody else question the propriety of this thread besides me? The threadstarter has pretty much admitted, that it's not really about Bogut or even basketball, it's about using an individual to promote a (negative) racial agenda. My Gawd, if someone started a thread about results from *I.Q. Tests* (which, IMO, are a bunch of evil nonsense) and this this "exposed" African-American player X, how long would that thread be allowed to remain open?


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## JuniorNoboa (Jan 27, 2003)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> You're getting me all wrong...
> 
> I'm not saying he'll be bad because he's Caucasian, but that anyone who says Caucasians ballers are on par with African-American ballers in the athletic department clearly is out to lunch.


Who says that Whites are on par athletically generally with blacks? Nobody. 

But were not as ignorant as yourself to make a conclusion on one's "basketball" and athletic ability based on his skin colour. Your out to lunch if you don't think there are some whites that are great athletically. And your ignorance of "skills" is also welll.... ignorant.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

..

A ridiculous thread obviously. 

Bogut tested just fine. These results don't mean a whole lot in most cases unless you are at the top or bottom of the spectrum, such as Joey Graham (an athletic beast) or Monta Ellis (tested incredibly underwhelming).

The guys in the middle, these tests will change little.


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## AussieWarriorFan! (May 30, 2005)

As an Aussie, i can't see why people keep trying to find flaws about Bogut!

First he had a degenerative (sp?) eye disease because he wore contact lenses, then his arrogant/too cocky because he knocked Kobe's attitude (who hasn't?), and NOW he is going to be a dud because his white and not that athletic?    

In just about EVERY profile i have read of Bogut, they have all said he is an "average" athlete, so it was already known he wasn't a gazelle like Gasol!

**** me, some of you Americans really need to take a long hard look at yourselves! :curse:


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## jdg (Jun 13, 2003)

So, I don't get Insider, and I don't know where else to find the results, so could someone post Marvin Williams results. It's definitely telling me something about his results that this thread starter, so obviously is a big fan of him, did not post Marvin Williams results at all.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

jdg said:


> So, I don't get Insider, and I don't know where else to find the results, so could someone post Marvin Williams results. It's definitely telling me something about his results that this thread starter, so obviously is a big fan of him, did not post Marvin Williams results at all.


http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?t=175094


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

jdg said:


> So, I don't get Insider, and I don't know where else to find the results, so could someone post Marvin Williams results. It's definitely telling me something about his results that this thread starter, so obviously is a big fan of him, did not post Marvin Williams results at all.


Marvin Williams
Bench-12 
Vert- 35"
LA- 11.11
3/4- 3.17
Overall- 15


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## yamaneko (Jan 1, 2003)

> Once again, not all... but in all likelyhood, take the most athletic white player in this draft... put him up against the 9th or 10th most athletic African-American player and see who wins.


Everyone whether they admit it or not knows that african american players overall are more athletic than their white counterparts when you compare the numbers. However, using this draft is not a good comparison. The most athletic player in this draft arguably is a white guy: Mindaugas Katelynas. The guy who bumped his nose on the rim during a dunk at portsmouth. The guy who won the college dunk contest. 

http://katelynas.com/media.html


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

DK said:


> Am I seriously the only person who noticed that? :rofl:


No, I saw that too. That was HILARIOUS! Thanks for the math lesson chief.



DHarris34Phan said:


> If he doesn't get double teamed, he has the post skills, footwork, and range to take his defender one on one...pick your poison.


I don't think he's good enough to dominate even the list of stiffs HKF posted. Mark Blout, as lazy as he is, makes his paycheck on the defensive end, same with Dalembert and the Collins'. He won't get double teamed, and he can't bang with most centers in the NBA. I think half way through the season he'll be settling for midrange shots and not playing in the post.

And if you can't tell I've jumped back from the Bogut bandwagon to the Marvin Williams bandwagon. I know you can't teach 7 feet, but I just don't think he's the next great center. Well rounded players often times just don't do that well, while guys with really good definable skills do. Bogut doesn't have a great jumpshot, his post moves aren't consistent enough, he isn't a great defender, he isn't a great athlete. What he has is tremendous hands and solid passing ability, but if he doesn't get double teamed and he can't soar for rebounds, what use are those? He's servicable at everything, but he doesn't really stand out to me.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> And if you can't tell I've jumped back from the Bogut bandwagon to the Marvin Williams bandwagon. I know you can't teach 7 feet, but I just don't think he's the next great center. Well rounded players often times just don't do that well, while guys with really good definable skills do. Bogut doesn't have a great jumpshot, his post moves aren't consistent enough, he isn't a great defender, he isn't a great athlete. What he has is tremendous hands and solid passing ability, but if he doesn't get double teamed and he can't soar for rebounds, what use are those? He's servicable at everything, but he doesn't really stand out to me.


That is fine...my objective isn't to convince you....but after these combine scores, what more does Bogut have to prove to some people? Coming into the combine, the knock on him was his athletiscm. Well, he showed that he is a very good athlete when it comes to a 7 footer, and his numbers are in line what Dwight Howard and Emeka Okafor, the #1 and #2 overall picks, posted themselves.

I can argue for hours about his shooting and his post moves (which I think are WAY ahead of his time), but it really isn't worth it, considering it has been discussed in the past.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

DHarris34Phan said:


> That is fine...my objective isn't to convince you....but after these combine scores, what more does Bogut have to prove to some people? Coming into the combine, the knock on him was his athletiscm. Well, he showed that he is a very good athlete when it comes to a 7 footer, and his numbers are in line what Dwight Howard and Emeka Okafor, the #1 and #2 overall picks, posted themselves.
> 
> I can argue for hours about his shooting and his post moves (which I think are WAY ahead of his time), but it really isn't worth it, considering it has been discussed in the past.


Didn't you admit to only seeing him play a couple of times this season? Yet you somehow know his shooting and post moves are way ahead of his time? Just curious?


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Didn't you admit to only seeing him play a couple of times this season? Yet you somehow know his shooting and post moves are way ahead of his time? Just curious?


I have seen him in a few games this season...I have seen hours of videos in regards to most of the prospects in the draft.


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## MarvinWilliams#1in05 (Feb 13, 2005)

DHarris34Phan said:


> I have seen him in a few games this season...I have seen hours of videos in regards to most of the prospects in the draft.


Ok, where do you get your tapes? Is there a good site with vids or something?


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

MarvinWilliams#1in05 said:


> Ok, where do you get your tapes? Is there a good site with vids or something?


Yes...I posted a good site on here....find the thread...I also have a subscription to Rivals.com...have been watching videos of these guys for the last 3 years. I have watched a lot of college ball the last 3 years, and watched every game of the NCAA tourney for the past 3 years....I have seen a lot...enough to make a good, honest opinion at least.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

DHarris34Phan said:


> Well, he showed that he is a very good athlete when it comes to a 7 footer, and his numbers are in line what Dwight Howard and Emeka Okafor


Let's not kid ourselves, he's not anywhere close to Dwight Howard. If Dwight Howard is the Major Leagues of Athleticism, Andrew Bogut is A ball.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> Let's not kid ourselves, he's not anywhere close to Dwight Howard. If Dwight Howard is the Major Leagues of Athleticism, Andrew Bogut is A ball.


For a guy 1 (some say 2) inch(es) taller, and at least 10 pounds heavier than Howard, Bogut put up very impressive numbers. You can't deny that.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

His combine numbers didn't really prove anything to me (and after my crucifixion of Al Jefferson last year, I don't look at the numbers AS much) that I didn't know before. His numbers show me that he can get up for a rebound decently well (although doesn't really show explosion, just height) and that he's a plodder. Slow plodding big man. But I knew all of this already. His numbers aren't that impressive, but they don't hurt his stock either in my eyes; I think he's the #2 guy in this draft and in 2003 he was probably 5-8. 2004, probably somewhere in between 3 and 6 and in 2002 he would be #3.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Fair enough...but I think some of his sprint/agility times could be due to the fact he has added 20 pounds in the last 3 months leading up to the draft....but he was still faster than Emeka, and I wouldn't consider Emeka a "plodder".

If you think Bogut would go 3-6 in last years draft...where do you think Marvin would go? I would say somewhere from 7-12.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Ok, I suppose I'll take team needs and everything into consideration and just mock it out knowing what we currently know about Marv and Bogut, and knowing only what we knew about last year's guys before the last draft.

Howard, Okafor, Gordon (already had Curry), Livingston (already had Kamen), Bogut, Childress (dumb pick, but they were set on making it), Deng/Williams (I think this this is a toss up really, but I'll continue assuming Deng is the pick), Harris, Iguodala/Williams (again I think it could go either way and in this case I think Williams has the edge, but the 76ers really did seem to be in love with Iggy, so again I'll continue assuming Iguodala was the pick), Williams.

So I guess I say Bogut would have gone 5 to the Mavs and Williams could have gone either 7 to the Bulls, 9 to the 76ers, but no later than 10 to the Cavs. But that's just because I am deadset on believing the Hawks were f-ing up with Childress no matter what. If I don't assume the Hawks would take Childress, I think Marv would either go to the Hawks at 6, the Bulls at 7, or the 76ers at 9. So Bogut is 5 and Marv is 6-10.

This is fun! How about 2003?

Lebron, Darko, Melo, Bosh/Bogut (this is tough because Bosh is super talented, but he just didn't seem very polished out of G. Tech, so it's very believable that the Raps take Bogut, but I'll assume they were set on Bosh), Wade/Bogut (once again, very concievable they take Bogut and you KNOW Chad Ford would of had him here in his mock, but I think Riley wanted Wade from the moment he saw him), Bogut (over Kamen definitely), Hinrich/Williams (Bulls wanted Hinrich from the beginning, blah blah), TJ/Williams (Williams probably with the edge, but didn't we trade Cassel just before that draft? PG was a necessesity), Sweetney/Williams (this is a toss up, but Williams doesn't fall below...), Williams at #10.

Interesting. So according to need I guess I think Bogut is about a #5 kind of guy in previous years and Williams is a 6-10 kind of guy. Just lends credence to the statement that the Bucks got the #1 in the WORST possible year.


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## Pure Scorer (Jul 20, 2002)

If bogut was in the 2003 draft he probably would have been taken by detroit ahead of Milicic. Imo.


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## DHarris34Phan (Oct 28, 2004)

Nimreitz said:


> So I guess I say Bogut would have gone 5 to the Mavs and Williams could have gone either 7 to the Bulls, 9 to the 76ers, but no later than 10 to the Cavs. But that's just because I am deadset on believing the Hawks were f-ing up with Childress no matter what. If I don't assume the Hawks would take Childress, I think Marv would either go to the Hawks at 6, the Bulls at 7, or the 76ers at 9. So Bogut is 5 and Marv is 6-10.


Good analysis...Bogut on the Mavs...wow, that would be awesome.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Pure Scorer said:


> If bogut was in the 2003 draft he probably would have been taken by detroit ahead of Milicic. Imo.


Not a chance. Dumars was in love at first sight with Darko and he was just riding an incredible wave of hype by Chad Ford (narrated from his laptop with a glass of Cristal in his hand in Marc Cornstein's jacuzzi). Plus if you want impressive combine numbers from a legit 7 footer, forget about Bogut, Darko was AMAZING! He was quicker than TJ Ford!!! And despite never ever lifting before, he was pretty good with the bench, I want to say in the 12-15 range.

Hey, did you guys see Darko against the Spurs scrubs tonight? Once he hit that shot to put Detroit over 100 and the crowd went crazy it was like a fire got lit under him, he showed flashes of why he was picked so high. He got switched over to Devin Brown and was sticking with him, and did you see his long arms on that one rebound? Darko is very gifted athletically, he would have gone #2 for sure. #1 this year without a question.


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## Pure Scorer (Jul 20, 2002)

Well, this was before they had rasheed wallace. A frontcourt duo of Bogut/Wallace would look very nice imo, and that's what they were looking for with Milicic. Milicic without a doubt has the higher ceiling (probably one of if not the highest in the league) but i don't know if detroit would pass up on a guy who could come in and play 25+ (15+ even with larry brown coaching) minutes a game and put up solid numbers, and play a team oriented game. He would fit very well into the detroit half court, and i can't really see them passing up on him. Well, they might have, but i know i'd take bogut without hesitation if i'm in detroits position.


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## Nimreitz (May 13, 2003)

Hindsight is 20/20 my friend. Don't you know, Darko plays against MEN in the Serbian league! He is going to come in and contribute right away, he is the only top prospect who plays against men and should contribute more than LeBron! It was bunk, but there were a lot of people (Joe Dumars among them) who thought Darko could come in and play. And to be honest I still think Darko is the next great center in the league, he just needs to get traded (MILWAUKEE #1 FOR DARKO AND DETROIT'S FIRST ROUNDER, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!) and play. That's why I have the awkward Euro in my avatar, so I can remind everyone when Darko is tearing up the league that I never left the bandwagon. Hopefully I don't crash it into the tree like I did with the Nikoloz Tskitishvili bandwagon; of course I liked him because he was the goofiest looking basketball player I've ever seen "with a killer crossover" thank you Chad Ford.


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## MacDanny 6 (Jun 7, 2002)

Pure Scorer said:


> If bogut was in the 2003 draft he probably would have been taken by detroit ahead of Milicic. Imo.


So he's better than Milicic? I'm sold.


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## AussieWarriorFan! (May 30, 2005)

SO WHEN WILL DARKO GET SOME DECENT GAMETIME?

I wish a team would trade for him, just so we could actually see him play!


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## Pure Scorer (Jul 20, 2002)

i still have hope for skita.. he's not as far away from being a solid contributor as most people think.. he isn't going to be anything special though..

and before the 2003 draft milicic was slated as a project.. i don't remember anyone that said he was going to come into the league and contribute right away..at least that's not what most people thought iirc. 

and milicic will get plenty of burn next year if the pistons hope to keep him on their team.. or boost his trade value.


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## AussieWarriorFan! (May 30, 2005)

I agree, i see next season as crunch time for Detroit in regards to Milicic and his playing time!

If they don't give him more opportunities he will probably demand a trade no matter what!


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

Wow, the original post is so ignorant on so many levels I don't know where to start. So I won't.


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## BBALLSCIENCES (Oct 16, 2004)

I'm not buying this whole white people aren't athletic thing. I've watched a lot of baseball, rugby, soccer decathalons and so forth and so on so I've seen otherwise. I will however say that I don't believe that the caucasian kids are particularly heavy weightlifters. Anybody notice how high David Lee is on the list? He's white by the way.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Marvin Williams Jr. said:


> Howard and Jefferson were 18 years old, whereas Bogut is 20.
> 
> Okafor out-repped and out-jumped Bogut... by 7 reps and 2 inches.
> 
> You can't compare a NCAA sophomore to a HS senior.


Well Bogut was MORE AGILE than Okafor, despite being taller, and Okafor was a Junior.

Lane agility drill measures your ability to bend down and touch the floor. Being just a little shorter, and having just a little more arm length, is extremely important to a good time.

As I said before, bench press is severely overrated. Collison and Sweetney had <5, but are tough powerful PFs in the NBA.

A 33" vert for a seven-footer is very, very good.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

MemphisX said:


> Centers have a hard time helping their teams with passing unless they command double teams. I am not convinced he will be double teamed in the league.


One thing I am convinced of, Bogut will score or get fouled, consistently, on anybody in the world, if he is not double teamed.


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## The Mad Viking (Jun 12, 2003)

Want to talk racism?

This is what DraftCityExpress said about Bogut:



> He most likely will never be an outstanding shot blocker because of his average vertical leap,





> Bogut isn't the most athletic player in the world. His speed leaves a lot to be desired along with his jumping ability.


This is what they said about Taft:



> Taft combines the size, strength and athletic ability that the NBA is desperately looking for, and that's exactly the reason he is considered almost a sure-fire lottery pick and potentially even a #1 pick


Bogut 13 reps and 33.5" vert.
Taft: 14 reps and 33" vert.

Perhaps people see what they expect to see...

The numbers don't lie.

Yes, Taft has better footspeed than Bogut. But I don't think that's why everyone was high on him...


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## sologigolos (May 27, 2003)

1) iono if the bogut bashers have ever done a bench press. do you know how it works? you take the barbell, extend arm, pull it down to your chest, and extend again, taht's a rep. a 7 footer certainly has a lot more way to go than a 6 footer. year after year, a shorter guard has always outperformed the strong big men in the bench presses.

2) does anyone have the combine numbers for larry bird and dirk nowitzki? kevin mchale? tim duncan? and these folks are PFs too, not C's. not knocking on dirk and TD, but i don't think their lane agilities were in the low 10s.

3) judging from these numbers, unless dwight howard woke up and found 19 reps and 2 seconds of lane agility on his bedroom floor one morning, we should expect, based on emeka's seasonal averages, for DH to have averaged, oh, i don't know, maybe 2 pps, 1.5 rpg.

yeah.....


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## SeaNet (Nov 18, 2004)

So you've stooped this far, Marvin, have you? Its very simple, there may very well be trends over populations (and I mean this in the broadest possible sense (i.e. bird populations, inanimate populations, etc.), but such trends are wo/ value when judging individuals.

Ex. 1: Jason Collins Ex. 1A: AK-47

And Bogut's athleticism scores are fine wrt/ 6-11 Centers.


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

Why are we even responding to this guy ? As John would put it, he's a total scrub poster !


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## rebelsun (Nov 25, 2003)

Do his numbers really surprise anyone? Were people expecting 30 reps and a 42" vert?


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## jokeaward (May 22, 2003)

LOL @ Schenscher.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

These tests are always pretty shaky, which is why it's hard to put a lot of weight on them. I mean, Luke Jackson and Josh Smith recorded the same vertical last season, does anyone actually think both of their verticals translate the same way on the basketball court? Jefferson and Sweetney both recorded terrible benchpress for big bulky guys, but I don't see them getting pushed around. Some guys just don't record those scores well, because their athleticism is best used on the basketball court when the competitive instinct kicks in. There are too many factors that can alter the accuracy of how well the scores guage their athleticism on the actual basketball court.


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