# who else thinks that were goin nowhere with the team we have right now?



## -inVINCEible- (Jul 22, 2002)

WE NEED TO REBUILD

damn, Darko, LeBron or 'Melo really couldve helped

Bosh is the man

a future frontcourt of Bosh, and Jamaal Magloire sounds nice


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

dude, i'm telling you- forget about magloire, it's not going to happen and he isn't really an elite center. it would be great and all but we don't have the trade bait or the cap room to get him. 

we are in a fair bit of trouble here and we could end up in the lottery in a couple of years here. our team is decent and we'll play ok ball but the league is REALLY improving much more quickly than we are. we're going to have a rough time competing against pretty much every team in the west; in the east we stand a chance but even then most teams have the advantage at pretty much every position. 

for example, take a "floundering" team, the bucks:

cassel at point- truly a great veteran pg and he's not slowing down all that much
redd- one of the best shooters in the league but we have the advantage in VC
dmason and thomas- both are better than our 3s
amason (still on contract?), kukoc, and sophomore stud haislip
gadzuric (another sophomore stud) and pryzbilla (who hasn't performed well but is still miles better than montross)

add to that a solid draft pick in sofoklis, barbosa, or lampe...and they look a whole lot better than we do (except for the fact that we have a true superstar if he's healthy)


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## Ben1 (May 20, 2003)

One thing that really hurt Raptors this season was the injuries... If Raptors can keep most players, if not all, healthy next season, i dun see why Raptors will be unable to do well next year..


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## Jehuisthere (Jan 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Battlestar</b>!
> One thing that really hurt Raptors this season was the injuries... If Raptors can keep most players, if not all, healthy next season, i dun see why Raptors will be unable to do well next year..


yea agreed, as long as Vince is fully healthy, I don't see why we won't be able to make the playoffs in the East, as for going far in the playoffs, we'll have ton wait a few yrs and hope Bosh pans out if we draft him....


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## toiletscrubber (Sep 22, 2002)

Whether injuries or not, this team is goin no where in this league. But going "somewhere" I mean at least make it to the NBA final. Yes, a healthy Raptors team could make it to the playoff, but what for? Did the T-Wolves improve much from six straight first round exits? NO!

This team NEEDS another franchise player, not that I don't think Vince is capablle of being one, i just think that if you look at every sucessful NBA team, they have at least two players that's scoring over 20ppg or is an all star in this game. 

The Raptors are truly a one man team right now, and what's more distrubing is players that we expect to step up NEVER did.

Mo-Pete who is simply playing worst and worst when his responsibility gets larger

Antonio Davis who used to be a great reboudner and shot block has try tooo much to score down the post, but he doesn't have any kind of footwork to get by his defender.

That's why we need to get Chris Bosh or at least Kaman to this team, so we have another scoring option or a chance to get a new franchise player.


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## Raptors15 (May 23, 2003)

first of all, u do not have to have two 20+ scorers to be successful. The spurs seem to be doing ok to me. The Raptors will be in the playoffs next season, and a first round exit isnt a guarentee. If u consider the top 4 teams. Pistons, Nets, Hornets, 76er's. Than the bottom for teams. Celtics, Raptors, Magic, Indiana, or Bucks, and of these bottom clubs can knock off those top 4. So by saying toronto will be pulling a t'wolves is wrong. Another reason why its wrong is because Raptors have already gotten past the first two rounds a couple seasons ago.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

if injuries keep occuring at a constant state, for sure the raps won't go anywhere. the reason why we did so bad last season were injuries, and along with that came from lack of teamwork and comfotability with the players since new faces constantly turn up each week. if healthy can we be formidable? yes. but do we have the talent to improve each season, no. i believe the raps have what it takes to take a step back on pursuing veterans and start getting fresh again, i.e. Nuggets. look to get young players on the MLE as well as any trade opportunities. but i believe with the solid core of AW, VC, JYD and AD, we do not need more veteran help.

cliff notes - get younger, not older.


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## Jehuisthere (Jan 12, 2003)

two yrs ago though our team was better than it is currently

i agree that we need at least one more premier level player, if not a franchise, at least an all-star caliber, bosh i think provides more chance than kaman which is why i think Bosh should be the pick...


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## -inVINCEible- (Jul 22, 2002)

if bosh can get himself up to about 225, hes gonna start by the end of his rookie year


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## SkywalkerAC (Sep 20, 2002)

when this team was healthy we were playing well and have great chemistry. vince REALLY held back last year and he'll be ready to explode- if a season like that doesn't motivate you, nothing will. in the east we're a wildcard, we have enough talent to compete with new jersey and detroit but we need an excellent coach to do so. 

i'm also starting to think that bosh is going to be "great" next year (not ROY but will avg about 8 and 5), he's a smart player with all the potential in the world to go with excellent current skills. we do need another AS type on this team (ie we need a freak) and bosh is the closest we can come.


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## Crossword (Jun 7, 2002)

Bosh needs to be at least 240, 250 would be nice. But I still insist on taking him. He won't turn down a MAX offer if we give him good PT. We need to play him though, give him a chance. Of course don't let him play in the 4th that much unless it's garbage time, but as long as we can win with him on, then let him play.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

I agree that we are in trouble. We are going to have to win with what we have now plus draft picks. I continue preaching about how bad a situation we have gotten ourselves into with the flat out bad contracts we gave Hakeem, JYD, Antonio Davis, Montross, and Yogi (thankfully we got rid of this one). That being said, all is immediately forgotten if Bosh comes out and makes the first team all-rookie sqaud and makes a run at rookie of the year. He is raw, but polished. This is always an interesting combination. That label has been given to other talents over the last 10 years with mixed results.

Jerry Stackhouse has similar hype coming out of NC. He was a wild man on the break, but could not play the half-court game. While Bosh has more post moves and a better outside shot than Stack, the two were projected to be similar quality players. The only difference with Bosh is that he looks like KG. When you ahve that type of height and athleticism, you can do some big things. If he can become that franchise player, we'll be just fine. If not, I hope we can pick up my man Okafor next year.


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## Vinsanity (May 28, 2002)

yeah we need to destroy and rebuild


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## AdamIllman (May 12, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Battlestar</b>!
> One thing that really hurt Raptors this season was the injuries... If Raptors can keep most players, if not all, healthy next season, i dun see why Raptors will be unable to do well next year..


I agree but whats the point in just competing? The idea is to win championships and with this team now we aren't going to do that. Everyone says Vince is untouchable...and don't get me wrong i love vince, but we need to rebuild for the future and he kind of hinders that process.


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## trick (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Vinsanity</b>!
> yeah we need to destroy and rebuild


not necessarily. i really don't have a problem with keeping the core guys of VC, AW and JYD, but AD has definitely got to go. i believe he's the sole one that's keeping this down from acquiring much needed talent in order to succeed in the future. once AD, and his atrocious salary, is out, the better this team will be.

hopefully, AD's shipment period will be the time when Bosh is ready to be a franchise player alongside VC.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

RollWithEm said:


> I agree that we are in trouble... If not, I hope we can pick up my man Okafor next year.


Now this is the thread I was looking for a while back. I was already thinking the squad was in trouble almost 10 years ago... and it still is. Also, I always found away back then to reiterate how much I loved Okafor. I still do have a soft spot for the guy, I guess.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Remember when all those people used to post here?


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

In fact, I do remember that.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

It's a shame that 10 years on we are faced with the exact same dilemma. 

It's probably also one of the reasons that all those posters decided to quit talking about the team.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

Hi


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

When Vince ripper my Raptor-fan heart out, I really never embraced another team. Since then I have literally never pulled for any team to beat any other. I always hope to see overtime and great basketball in every game I watch.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

-James- said:


> Hi


Hey bro.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

R-Star said:


> Hey bro.


Hey there!

Don't remember you posting in here much, but from creeping the forums since I stopped posting, I do enjoy your work.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

-James- said:


> Hey there!
> 
> Don't remember you posting in here much, but from creeping the forums since I stopped posting, I do enjoy your work.


I am a man of the people.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

R-Star said:


> I am a man of the people.


Humorous and humble. You truly are the man.
Where are my buddies madman and ballocks at?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

-James- said:


> Humorous and humble. You truly are the man.
> Where are my buddies madman and ballocks at?


Haven't seen either around these days. 

Both were great posters.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

R-Star said:


> Haven't seen either around these days.
> 
> Both were great posters.


Great posters and virtual friends.

Anyways, I actually think this team's outlook is pretty promising and if nothing else, Casey has them actually playing their tails off, even Bargnani. For the first time in a LONG time I actually enjoy watching these guys play even if they're way overmatched most of the time. 

We have good pieces and Casey has them playing hard. We definitely need some more scoring, preferably on the wing, since it looks like that will never be a role DeRozan can fill, but that's okay. We're losing because we lack talent, which after years of losing for lack of effort, is something that I can live with.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

-James- said:


> Great posters and virtual friends.
> 
> Anyways, I actually think this team's outlook is pretty promising and if nothing else, Casey has them actually playing their tails off, even Bargnani. For the first time in a LONG time I actually enjoy watching these guys play even if they're way overmatched most of the time.
> 
> We have good pieces and Casey has them playing hard. We definitely need some more scoring, preferably on the wing, since it looks like that will never be a role DeRozan can fill, but that's okay. We're losing because we lack talent, which after years of losing for lack of effort, is something that I can live with.


Hopefully they can snag a star in the draft.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

The Raptors getting either the first or second pick this year would be huge for this franchise. Either KidGil or Davis would fit in nicely with their current core and add some flexibility.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Ballocks is definitely still around.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Raptors should build a decent young squad, hopefully you can nab a top 3 pick.

Jonas Valuncius (sp?) should be a nice addition to the frontcourt next year. Add either a SF (Kidd-Gilchrist? Barnes?) or a PF (Davis?). Maybe you could deal Bargnani, otherwise keep him - he's a solid scorer.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

If we don't get the first pick (Anthony Davis) this is my want list.

1. Andre Drummond
2. Harrison Barnes
3. Kidd-Gilchrist
4. Jeremy Lamb
5. Bradley Beal

While Drummond has character issues and questionable work ethic he is by far the best prospect in terms of potential. He is the type of homerun pick that this franchise needs. If we do draft Drummond we don't have to move Bargnani rightaway although Barg would be out as soon as Drummond is ready. At the meantime we can trade either Ed Davis or Amir to clear playing time.

I'm not that high on Kidd-Gilchrist because I don't think he has enough skills to play SF. His handle is below average and his jumper is broken. His motor is great but I'm afraid he will either be a smaller, less athletic version of Tyrus Thomas or our own Joey Graham. I just don't see any star potential in him.

I like Jeremy Lamb as well. He can come off the bench next year. If DeRozan doesn't improve we can ship him out and give Lamb a shot at being our SG. We can also move DeRozan to small forward and play both of them together. Without an outside shot and handles perhaps DD is better suited to be a 3 anyway.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> If we don't get the first pick (Anthony Davis) this is my want list.
> 
> 1. Andre Drummond
> 2. Harrison Barnes
> ...


So, in one post you've mentioned trading both Bargs and Derozan.

Perpetual rebuild. Sounds just great Seifer.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

R-Star said:


> So, in one post you've mentioned trading both Bargs and Derozan.
> 
> Perpetual rebuild. Sounds just great Seifer.


Let's hear your plan then. What would you do with a top 5 pick?


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> Let's hear your plan then. What would you do with a top 5 pick?


Obviously if you get the #1, take the safe pick with Davis. If not I agree Drummond looks like he could be a great player down the road if he gets his head on straight. No matter who you draft, it doesn't immediately force you to trade one of your top 2 players. Switch Bargs and whoever you draft between the 4 and 5 to see who works best going forward. If Jonas whats his face comes over, let him log heavy minutes as well and see how everyone plays together. 

Once you see how everyones chemistry is together, then you start making major tweeks to the roster. The Raptors aren't competing next year, so why start trading away their only good proven players now?

You're like the kid who always wants whatever toy is the newest. If the Raptors trade Bargs and Derozan, how many years is it before you're sitting here saying "You know, Anthony Davis isn't taking us anywhere. I say we draft xxxxx and trade Davis for another top pick."


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Jonas is coming over. I would also say he is already a Top 2 player on our roster.

We'll take Barnes with our pick and try to pick up Nash. Barnes is great when paired with a solid distributor, so even if we don't get Nash, Calderon still fits the bill.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

R-Star said:


> Obviously if you get the #1, take the safe pick with Davis. If not I agree Drummond looks like he could be a great player down the road if he gets his head on straight. No matter who you draft, it doesn't immediately force you to trade one of your top 2 players. Switch Bargs and whoever you draft between the 4 and 5 to see who works best going forward. If Jonas whats his face comes over, let him log heavy minutes as well and see how everyone plays together.
> 
> Once you see how everyones chemistry is together, then you start making major tweeks to the roster. The Raptors aren't competing next year, so why start trading away their only good proven players now?
> 
> You're like the kid who always wants whatever toy is the newest. If the Raptors trade Bargs and Derozan, how many years is it before you're sitting here saying "You know, Anthony Davis isn't taking us anywhere. I say we draft xxxxx and trade Davis for another top pick."


Your plan is basically the same as my plan. I'd waste my time explaining it to you but I just don't feel like it.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I like Barnes as well but I wouldn't take him over Drummond. It's a shame that there isn't a star PG prospect in this draft because that's what we need the most right now.

I've changed my mind on Calderon. I don't think we can get anything decent for him so we might as well just keep him until his contract runs out.

I really want us to get another first rounder. There are a lot of intriguing players that we can pick in the 18-30 range. Marquis Teaque would be a decent pick for us if we can get a late first.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> Your plan is basically the same as my plan. I'd waste my time explaining it to you but I just don't feel like it.


Not really, no. You've been pushing to trade any and every established player on the roster. That's not anything like my plan.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Let's keep this about basketball. 

I don't get why either of you want Drummond, I think Toronto is a horrible situation for a kid with questionable brain capacity.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Porn Player said:


> Let's keep this about basketball.
> 
> I don't get why either of you want Drummond, I think Toronto is a horrible situation for a kid with questionable brain capacity.


Was kind of my worry. Seems to me like a kid who would hate being in Toronto, complain and only worry about his stats, and then leave via FA if not traded first.

Only reason I have any interest in the kid is the lack of star potential big men in the draft. Toronto needs good character guys.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Porn Player said:


> Let's keep this about basketball.
> 
> I don't get why either of you want Drummond, I think Toronto is a horrible situation for a kid with questionable brain capacity.


It would be risky but I think we really need to take a risk if we want to turn this franchise around. Drummond's ceiling is just so much higher than the rest of the draft class not including Anthony Davis.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> It would be risky but I think we really need to take a risk if we want to turn this franchise around. Drummond's ceiling is just so much higher than the rest of the draft class not including Anthony Davis.


Yea, but he also has the highest bust potential. Hes the kind of kid you take if you were in the Pistons position when they drafted Darko.


The Raptors need this draft to work out for them. If the city of Toronto wasn't so used to cheering for losers in all their major sports, the Raptors probably would have already gone the way of the Grizzlies.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

But we have Jonas, why take the risk on Drummond when we could have a sure thing in Barnes? I'm talking sure thing to be a capable starter, not superstar. 

Drummond is going to join a very long list of big men with potential that bust. 

Jonas/Bargnani/Barnes/DeRozan/FA looks like a borderline playoff team to me, and with Casey at the helm we could surprise a few people.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Porn Player said:


> But we have Jonas, why take the risk on Drummond when we could have a sure thing in Barnes? I'm talking sure thing to be a capable starter, not superstar.
> 
> Drummond is going to join a very long list of big men with potential that bust.


I'm a believer that you should always take the best player available and to me after Davis it's Drummond by a fair margin. I don't believe Drummond will be there after the 3rd pick. If we get a top 3 pick I would like us to draft someone who has the potential to be more than just a starter. Barnes to me seems like a borderline allstar if that at all.


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

seifer0406 said:


> I'm a believer that you should always take the best player available and to me after Davis it's Drummond by a fair margin. I don't believe Drummond will be there after the 3rd pick. If we get a top 3 pick I would like us to draft someone who has the potential to be more than just a starter. Barnes to me seems like a borderline allstar if that at all.


Yea, but do you see any chance at all of him being content in Toronto?

I don't. I agree he's an exciting prospect, I'd love him on the Pacers, but for Toronto I don't think its a good fit for a rebuilding team with a history of having its star players leave.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

I think 1-2 is pretty clear in my book... In terms of readiness AND potential, It's Davis and MK-G. If you have a top 2, you would be hard pressed to pass up on either. After that its up for debate. Of course, teams dont always go with the low-risk, high-potential talent sometimes they prefer to gamble on the high-risk, high-potential guy or proceed cautiously w the low-risk, low-potential guy. 

If your looking for high-risk, high-potential, you can look at Drummond or Lamb and roll the dice. If you're looking for more polished, "ready" high-potential guys, you're looking at Beal, Robinson, Davis, MKG. If you're looking at low-risk rotation players, you have Barnes & Sully. 

I'd go:
1)Davis
2)MKG
3)Drummond
4)Robinson
5)Beal
6)Lamb
7)Sully
8)Barnes


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## kirk_2003 (Jun 23, 2003)

Barnes is a poor mans Derozen, his handles are poor and doesn't possess a great first step. Barnes needs to be spoon fed for points. 

The way I would rank the upcoming draft in terms of the Raptors pick: Davis, Drummond, Lamb, MKG, Thomas, Beal, Barnes.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

As I said in another thread Kidd Gill the same player as Derozan theres not point of drafting him imo same with Davis when Val coming over if the raps get a top 3 pic the should strongly consider trading it


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Mr_B said:


> As I said in another thread Kidd Gill the same player as Derozan theres not point of drafting him imo same with Davis when Val coming over if the raps get a top 3 pic the should strongly consider trading it


For Danny Granger?


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

I was thinking for example if the raps get 3 and Team B get 6 then raps should trade with them this team needs a wing they'll get one either way by the end of draft night then grab a Point in free agency


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Mr_B said:


> I was thinking for example if the raps get 3 and Team B get 6 then raps should trade with them this team needs a wing they'll get one either way by the end of draft night then grab a Point in free agency


Just take Danny Granger bro. 

Its a good deal. Trust me. I wouldn't like, I'm Canadian.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

What makes you think indiana willing to part with Granger? especally now when it looks like there only a year or two away from being a serious contender in the East


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## R-Star (Jun 13, 2002)

Mr_B said:


> What makes you think indiana willing to part with Granger? especally now when it looks like there only a year or two away from being a serious contender in the East


Because I'm an Indiana fan.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Mr_B said:


> As I said in another thread Kidd Gill the same player as Derozan theres not point of drafting him imo same with Davis when Val coming over if the raps get a top 3 pic the should strongly consider trading it


Davis and Drummond can play the 4 though. I think Jonas can slide over too if necessary. All 3 of them move well enough to play both positions. The question is whether any of them can develop a jump shot.


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## Mr_B (Mar 6, 2004)

seifer0406 said:


> Davis and Drummond can play the 4 though. I think Jonas can slide over too if necessary. All 3 of them move well enough to play both positions. The question is whether any of them can develop a jump shot.


Not sure about that lets say we draft davis the you have Val-5 Davis-4 Barg at the 3? we've seen that movie before during the Sam Mitchell era that didn't turn out to well


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Mr_B said:


> Not sure about that lets say we draft davis the you have Val-5 Davis-4 Barg at the 3? we've seen that movie before during the Sam Mitchell era that didn't turn out to well


If Davis/Drummond and Jonas become players that people think they will become then Bargs would be out the door. You give Bargs/Davis/Jonas a year to see which is the best duo and you trade the odd man.

The player(s) that the Raptors need to trade after drafting Drummond/Davis is either Amir or Ed Davis. Unless BC trades Bargnani rightaway (unlikely) there wouldn't be enough playing time for either one of them. I think Ed Davis would be the better trade because he has more value than Amir. Moreover Amir is more suited as a backup 4/5 than Ed.


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## -James- (Apr 27, 2004)

No way we trade a top 5 pick. We would be up there for a reason, we need the talent. So if we hit the first pick and can land Davis, no way you trade down for Barnes and "assets". Same goes for MKG (who is actually my second-favorite player in this draft).


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## lucky777s (Nov 13, 2003)

Not sold on MKG at all. Has great size but not elite ball skills. Raps have that in JJ already. We need skilled players.

Barnes has disappointed me this year. Still think he could be a very good pro. Has that Rudy Gay feel where his last year at UConn was a little disappointing and he slipped from being consensus #1 pre-season.

My guy is Lamb. Just has the most skill of any wing in the draft. Great length too for SG. I expect him to move up in the mocks.

I would take Lamb and see if DD can play with him or off the bench. Once Lamb proves himself potentially trade DD for a true SF or PG or C.

Core would be Lamb, JV, Amir/ED. Hope to hold onto JJ, DD, Bayless, Gray but all available for right trade. We also have the rights to Weems I believe. Ideally move Bargs for a stud wing man or PG. Jennings trade is probably on the table for Bargs but I am not sure I would do that. He is not even 23 yet though.

Try to sign JO as a player/coach role to guide young JV. Fallback is to keep Mags.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I actually like what James Johnson has done this year. He seems to be the perfect defensive 3 for Casey. If he can develop that corner 3 then I think we should just use him as our long term solution at SF.

Amir added a mid range jumper to this game this year but I'm afraid he will never be a starter in this league. Besides foul trouble it seems like he has durability issues as well. Ed Davis really hasn't improved at all this year. People are blaming that on the lockout that kept the Raptors training staff from working with him over the summer. We will have to wait and see if he improves this summer.

I think the biggest disappointment this year has to be DeRozan though. This being his 3rd year I just expect more of him. So far he has proven to be an one dimensional player who's mediocre at doing the only thing he can do, score.


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## Wade County (Jun 22, 2003)

Wouldn't take the risk with Drummond, especially as you have Jonas coming over. Go for a wing player, assuming you dont get #1.

Get a mid-late 1st for Kendall Marshall if you want a distributor also. 

I think it's an NBA conspiracy - Raptors will get the #1 pick. It's Sterns way of making up for the collusion between Miami and the Big 3. Cavs got Irving last year, Raptors get Davis this year 

If this happens, i'm so calling it


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## Bogg (May 4, 2009)

seifer0406 said:


> I actually like what James Johnson has done this year. He seems to be the perfect defensive 3 for Casey. If he can develop that corner 3 then I think we should just use him as our long term solution at SF.


Johnson can be a nice utility guy off the bench, but you can't just roll with him as your three unless you have at least two all-stars on the roster. Raptors have to be looking at upgrading the swingman position unless they stumble into a top point guard and Jonas turns out to be much better than even the heightened expectations of him.


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## ballocks (May 15, 2003)

this season has been the worst of all-time for me. i can't imagine it being any worse. i hated it before we even got started because we were too mediocre for a team that needed to suck, the lockout was then predictably a mess, i had a brief respite when we started to lose big and i thought maybe we weren't quite so mediocre (and/or were tanking with a purpose) before this latest run of painful late-season success. i mean, i cannot wait for the end of this year. watching this team and hoping to lose is not the way to be a fan. it is dreadful.

i think casey is a great coach. maybe one of the best in the league, almost certainly our best ever. but i wonder if we didn't bring him in one year prematurely. of course, he probably wouldn't have been available this offseason but i'm just saying... it seems to be another case of putting the cart before the horse. i thought it was bad enough to have a full complementary cast (bosh's skeleton crew) running this team while we looked for a new leader through the draft. totally backwards order of operations. but now we've also added a successful coach who must be earning a commission of some kind on every win because he's goin'... HARD! ultimately it threatens our draft position further (most important draft of all-time?) and the logic fails me. truly baffling.

it's convenient then that matt devlin is our pbp voice these days because we are quite fittingly now "livin' on a prayer".

i still think this draft is crucial. absolutely crucial. love him or hate him, we lost a massive basketball talent in chris bosh for subpar value... that is, if any value at all. we are still very much in recovery mode. drafting valanciunas was a step in the right direction but we need more in the cupboard, especially since this organization steadfastly refuses to spend past the luxury tax threshold. it's basically the draft by default in toronto. now that we're sliding down into mid-lotto territory- and virtually every other team is riding their tankasaurus (cleveland, portland and new jersey the worst of the lot)- again, we're livin' on a prayer _and somehow convinced ourselves to enjoy it_. it's crazy.

which brings me back to the core of this thread: if we can't find a major contributor in june, we _are_ in all likelihood "goin nowhere with the team we have right now." do we need anthony davis? hell no. anthony davis wasn't even "anthony davis" a few months ago. this draft is stacked with other talent, imo. in lieu of watching the raptors i became a part-time ncaa nut this season and i'd be quite content with at least 1 of 7 or 8 different players. the one blessing is that coach casey seems to have a very clear and comfortable role for a SF- like harrison barnes, for example, or perry jones iii or, you know, the other guy from kentucky that i can't stand to think about on nights like this. it's a good year to look for a 3.

the best thing about this college season, imo, is that many of the best prospects learned how to play under the bright lights in big roles, and whether they succeeded or not it should bode well for their future in the league. whether you're talking about davis or kidd-gilchrist or sullinger or robinson or barnes or mcadoo (don't sleep on james michael!) or jones iii or beal or any one of a number of different guys, they were all relied upon and expected to produce. they didn't all meet the challenge, they didn't always deliver, but they dealt with the pressure and they all gained valuable experience. this doesn't happen every year. as a result, i think a lot of the players will be exactly what a team like ours will need them to be- simply solid contributors. 

but by picking at 8 or 9, well, now you won't have your pick of the lot. that's huge. i'm hoping against all hope that we can somehow start losing games again (makes me nauseous to even type that) because at the end of the day, this player is simply too important to us. other teams can afford to miss because they are still so incomplete, they have so many holes to fill and will likely reserve themselves a spot in the lottery for a few years to come. we, on the other hand, are on the verge of going treadmill again, imo, and will indeed be "goin nowhere" if we don't score a major coup in the upcoming draft. but regardless, i feel june 28 cannot arrive soon enough for all the reasons in the world. 

sorry for the length of post. maybe i'll look back in 10 years (again) and laugh. 

peace


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I like to look at the bright side of things. In a way losing Bosh has helped this franchise in that we're no longer trying to do the impossible. Over the years it has become apparent that a Bosh/Bargnani frontcourt isn't going to work. Instead of trying to acquire pieces to make the thing work and waste time during the process, we are now free to explore options that do work. This is why I feel our team should use this to our advantage rather than repeat the same process with Bargnani. We need to evaluate the plan of building the team around Bargnani and whether it would be easier to build the team around our current draft pick. Currently the Raptors don't have a franchise caliber player that forces us to have to build around him. This isn't necessarily a bad thing unless you make decisions as if you actually have a franchise player. That is why I wouldn't draft Harrison Barnes to suit a need when guys like Drummond is still available. We need to draft the bpa to have a chance to really turn the franchise around. Shooting for mediocrity just means that we will be back here a few years later.


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## RollWithEm (Jul 16, 2002)

I completely agree with you seifer. You never draft for need when you haven't identified your "keepers". You draft best available... I mean unless you think the best buy available is Marvin Williams when Chris Paul and Deron Williams are both sitting there staring at you.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Agree with ballocks, wish we could sim the rest of the games like 2K. The remainder of the season is going to be an awful slog.

Also, we should be starting ED every game. There are a lot of PFs in the lottery and I'd like to see what we have with ED, and I'm sure other teams would as well.

Who am I kidding, I have hardly watched a game this season!


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

This is unfortunate. We're playing our way out of a good draft pick. We suck at sucking.


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## Porn Player (Apr 24, 2003)

Casey man, quit it. 

Andersen is pin point, we need to dump him ASAP.


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## speedythief (Jul 16, 2003)

Casey is a good coach. Maybe the best one we've had yet.

They say defence is about effort and offence is about talent. He's drawn a lot of blood from (pounding) the rock this season.

It's one thing that's given me hope this season. We're going to have at least two rookies coming into the team but it will be a major talent boost over the likes of Aaron Gray and Rasual Butler. We should be able to start swinging things back around, especially if BC is able to finagle something in trades or free agency.


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