# Rumors On Rose Beginning To Wilt; Or Maybe Not! Update



## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

> Jalen Rose didn't need to audition for the Knicks. They've wanted him long before he detonated for 31 points yesterday.
> 
> But while Rose coming to New York is a rumor that is now three years old, the Knicks and Raptors can't seem to reach an agreement.
> 
> ...


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/story/383168p-325281c.html

You can't blame Toronto brass for keeping Rose. Why would they want Penny who has probably played less than 2 games all season long? I would balked too, but I also can't blame the Knicks for rethinking their proposal.


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## martymar (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Rumors On Rose Beginning To Wilt*

why would the raps trade rose and a 1st for penny, it make no sense whatsoever since the cap relief is only a year difference


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Depends on WHEN you need cap relief...*

If the Raps want it for next year, it makes sense.


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

*Re: Depends on WHEN you need cap relief...*

I want the knicks to trade Penny so badly for Rose. This just proved my theory that the trade would be helpful


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## martymar (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Depends on WHEN you need cap relief...*



alphadog said:


> If the Raps want it for next year, it makes sense.


well the player the raptors are going to clear up the cap for is not a free agent until after next season


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## Turkish Delight (Mar 17, 2004)

*Re: Depends on WHEN you need cap relief...*



alphadog said:


> If the Raps want it for next year, it makes sense.


Even if the Raptors for some reason wanted to give up a mid 1st rounder just to get off the books a year early, they wouldn't be too impressed by this year's free agent crop. The year after will yield a much better group of free agents, and the Raptors will have even more money to throw around.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*I mean no offense but....*

I think it's irrelevent. I don't see any major FA going to Toronto. I don't recall anyone ever listing the Raps as one of their first choices and can't imagine it happening. They are not in a major market and those teams always have trouble attracting marquis players. I think they will do well to hang onto the young stars they have but I bet Bosh exits as soon as he can. Best luck, though.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

*tsk, tsk.*

what any internet NBA fan "see's" happening to the Raptors is irrelevant. The proof is in the pudding. 

This team is getting better, as are the Knicks and a trade that barely made sense a month ago no longer makes sense.

All this coming from a team that proves having the ability to sign whomever they please and means nothing in terms off on court success.

Best of luck being a major market, maybe it will mean something someday.






Go Nate!


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Hey Shookie...*

Grow some skin. The proof IS in the pudding and the Raps pudding was cooked a long time ago. I understand your loyalty but the facts of the matter are that players can't wait to get out of Toronto and they have never been able to sign a very good FA. Nice city but not where most NBA players want to be....sort of like Cleveland pre LJ. It remains to be seen whether or not he stays. LJ may.....he's an Ohio guy, but as far as I know, there are very few Canadians in the NBA so the chance of getting a "hometown" star are slim, at best. I agree the Raps are improving but they are going to find it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to keep Bosh beyond his initial contract, much less add good players around him.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Oh...and by the way...*

Playing in a major market such as NY, Chi, or LA pays huge dividends if you are a star. The endorsement money is off the wall. It is, indeed, a carrot.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: I mean no offense but....*



alphadog said:


> They are not in a major market and those teams always have trouble attracting marquis players.


Define a major market for me and then I'll respond to how you may have a misconception.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

*Re: Oh...and by the way...*

I guess if you're looking to play on a losing team. Quick who was the last major superstar the Knicks signed? New York city has a great basketball culture, [STRIKE]but the Knicks stink and have stunk for quite some time.[/STRIKE] If you where ever able to sign someone big and then turn that into on court sucess then maybe you've got a point. But untill then all you have is Marbury and crew making a ton of dough. 

So Toronto may have to overpay some players stay or come here, Atlanta had to, so we should expect the same thing, but excuse me, how much are the bigtimer-everyone-wants-to-play-here New York Knicks paying Jerome James?


Big market or not, both teams are rebuilding. One has draft picks and financial options, they other is the Knicks.

Toronto has the same hard-on with hockey, "oh everyone will want to play here", but in the end, only the results on the ice/court matters.

Having said that I really believe that both teams with jump to the top of the division in the next couple of seasons.

Part of the post is considered baiting.

-Kitty


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## martymar (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: I mean no offense but....*



alphadog said:


> I think it's irrelevent. I don't see any major FA going to Toronto. I don't recall anyone ever listing the Raps as one of their first choices and can't imagine it happening. They are not in a major market and those teams always have trouble attracting marquis players. I think they will do well to hang onto the young stars they have but I bet Bosh exits as soon as he can. Best luck, though.


first and foremost it's marquee not marquis. 

Toronto is not a major market? it's the 4th largest market in north america. 

How many raptors player actually left the team and not resign as a free agent? the answer is only one and that was T-Mac, because the ownership refuse to offer him max contract before he became a free agent. 

There was a point shaq wanted to play for the raptors, rashard lewis almost came to the raptors, 

By the way Bosh did mention the would like to finish his career as a raptor



> Playing in a major market such as NY, Chi, or LA pays huge dividends if you are a star. The endorsement money is off the wall. It is, indeed, a carrot.


NY how many big name free agent have they signed in the last 10 years? Luc Longley? Jerome James? Chris Childs? The last big free agent they signed was Allan Houston and they way over paid him
Chicago how many big name free agent went to chicago after the jordan era?
How many free agents has signed with the LA clippers?

Endorsement money? The fact is Vince Carter was voted in the all star year every year he was in raptors uniform, first full year in New Jersey he is not even going to be voted in. The fact is if a player has marketability regardless where he is he will sell not where he plays


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: Rumors On Rose Beginning To Wilt*

First and foremost, we shouldn't stress grammar and spelling on this board. We all have made typos when posting let's just try to focus on the post and not try to embarrass another poster when they make a mistake. 


With that being said, Shook and Dog, I agree with you both. I think you both have made valid points. I think it's all about how the market is set in finding out if a FA will re-sign or go somewhere else. If the Lakers had cap space (as an example) it will be interesting to see where Bosh would choose to play. In Bosh's case he may not want to sign on to a team like LA even if they have cap room because he may actually want to stay in Toronto, is comfortable there and want to be part of something special if they can continue turning things around. I personally think it's based on the individual. Like I said, I think you guys are both on the money with your points.


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## MonkeyBallZJr (May 7, 2004)

*Re: I mean no offense but....*



martymar said:


> first and foremost it's marquee not marquis.
> 
> Toronto is not a major market? it's the 4th largest market in north america.
> 
> ...



4th largest media market in North America, a fact that many Americans don't seem to accept. Not to mention Ray Allen also stated that he would love to play in Toronto. 

Bosh has also stated that if he feels that the franchise is moving in the right direction then he will stay and it is.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Rumors On Rose Beginning To Wilt*

toronto being the 4th largest market doesnt mean much...

personally, i think it would be tough to live in a different country, with different currency, even though its very close.you would be an immigrant rather then a citizen...u gotta deal with the border people like 40 times a season.

not takin away from toronto, im sure its a great city....im jus sayin....tougher adjustment.......you can go ahead and call me ignorant for not knowin much about toronto and canada...but most players from here are the same as me...simply clueless.


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## martymar (Jan 5, 2006)

*Re: Rumors On Rose Beginning To Wilt*



The True Essence said:


> toronto being the 4th largest market doesnt mean much...
> 
> personally, i think it would be tough to live in a different country, with different currency, even though its very close.you would be an immigrant rather then a citizen...u gotta deal with the border people like 40 times a season.
> 
> not takin away from toronto, im sure its a great city....im jus sayin....tougher adjustment.......you can go ahead and call me ignorant for not knowin much about toronto and canada...but most players from here are the same as me...simply clueless.


I'm not trying to patronize you or be sarcastic but that's the most a pretty much intelligent respond you've given. Alot of americans do have a pre-conceive notion that it's tough adjustment, in contrary not really, first toronto culture is very multi culture lots of this rappers, and basketball players do come up here in toronto during the caribana week, most rappers film their videos here, lots of filming are done here. The currency is not really a problem either since you can use american dollars or canadian dollars, when athletes do cross the border is not like it's similar to a regular citizen were you have to line up, it's pretty much in and out. Toronto doesn't really differ much from other NBA cities

by the way incase anyone bring out the point of taxes, NBA has a tax equalization


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*A bit naive..*

If you think a player can make as much in Canada regarding endorsements....regardless of being the 4th biggest market. Shaq almost went there?......hahaha. Ever hear of using one party to drive up the price for the other? Don't give me the ALMOSTS....tell me when you secure your first major star by HIS choice. Contract extensions also may count. Guess I'll hear from you....uh...never. BTW, I meant it about being a great city....just not a popular destination in the NBA.

You might want to re-read your post. I made a spelling mistake. Your's is a nightmare of mistakes....typos, I can only assume. Go back and read the story about living in a glass house and throwing stones.


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

*Speaking of naive...*



alphadog said:


> If you think a player can make as much in Canada regarding endorsements....regardless of being the 4th biggest market. Shaq almost went there?......hahaha. Ever hear of using one party to drive up the price for the other? Don't give me the ALMOSTS....tell me when you secure your first major star by HIS choice. Contract extensions also may count. Guess I'll hear from you....uh...never. BTW, I meant it about being a great city....just not a popular destination in the NBA.
> 
> You might want to re-read your post. I made a spelling mistake. Your's is a nightmare of mistakes....typos, I can only assume. Go back and read the story about living in a glass house and throwing stones.


Let me ask you a question.

All you can do is work from examples in history, because the rest is conjecture. Vince Carter is the only player that has been at a level to get national endorsements.

While IN Toronto:

-National campaigns in US and Canada for Nike. Dr. Funk ring a bell? A spot with Richard Jeffferson in a Gym Dunkoff and no-on else. After the 2000 olympics, VC dunking over Gary Payton pushing the new Nike Shox. And more.

-National Gatorade Campaigns in US and Canada. It began with some computer generated Raptors playing ball in a FIERCE game pushing the FIERCE flavour. There, was VC as part of several athletes doing the Gatorade "testing". There was VC playing with the little kid who also played with Yao and Peyton Manning in various sports.

-Also, Vince was used every time TNT opened a broadcast where he dunked on a basket in a miniature city-scape wearing Raptor Purple to close and emphasise the intro. Not to mention the dozen or so games he and the Raps played on national television. 

Those are just the big campaigns. I can name a TON of local endorsements and Canadian national endorsements.

Since he has been in a MAJOR MARKET for a year now. Maybe you can tell me how he has improved his lot concerning endorsements?


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

*Re: Rumors On Rose Beginning To Wilt*

Besides any player the plays for endorsements deserves to end up in New York with Marbury, playing on [STRIKE]yet another crappy knicks team.[/STRIKE], _sorry let's say disappointing_.

KG stayed in Minny, Timmy stayed in SA, Bosh will stay in TO (if the Raps can win a few games here and there).

this is the NBA and players get paid, no matter where they get play, Bosh will sign a max deal and will have plently to feed the fam.

-portions removed, no need for a lesson here kitty.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: Rumors On Rose Beginning To Wilt*

As far as I'm concerned shook you're baiting and that goes for the rest of the posters who thinks it's should open season to post negative on this board. You said the Knicks are crappy in how many posts in this thread already? Listen if this thread was made in the raptors forum you can trash the knicks all day long if you want, but unfortunately for you it's not. You are on the Knicks forum just in case you guys forgot so your posting style should automatically change. If you find this confusing read the rules on trolling and baiting before posting again. I will edit some posts when I get to my office computer, but consider this a warning. Continue this debate....


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: Rumors On Rose Beginning To Wilt*



The True Essence said:


> toronto being the 4th largest market doesnt mean much...
> 
> personally, i think it would be tough to live in a different country, with different currency, even though its very close.you would be an immigrant rather then a citizen...u gotta deal with the border people like 40 times a season.
> 
> not takin away from toronto, im sure its a great city....im jus sayin....tougher adjustment.......you can go ahead and call me ignorant for not knowin much about toronto and canada...but most players from here are the same as me...simply clueless.


It is and it isn't. Same language. Better strippers. Great nightlife. Not so much soul-food. Lots of Jamaican and West Indians. Great shopping like 5th ave or Michigan ave. No legit ESPN but the same thing in TSN, Sportsnet and the Score that all have different foci so you can choose the coverage you like bettter.

Customs is really nothing. I don't know how much you guys have gone between the two countries. But through our airport, as long as you're not bringing back lots of smokes or booze, you won't have a problem Usually its a 60 second conversation. And considering there are always 12 to 20 agents on duty the line-ups are never more than 3-5 mins.

Different? Sure. But you know what, a lot of guys that can't make it straight away have to go to Europe or Israel to get a cheque to ball. Now you're talking culture shock. They won't even speak English.

I'll give you a lot of credit for saying you're ignorant. Identifying and expressing that is better than coming up with a lot of unfounded ideas about a place.

I've talked a lot about VC. I have my problems with him for the way he conducted himself in the end. However, you cannot get on him about his charity work in the city. He still loves this city and has a ton of connections to it that will live on. If you would ask him, he would tell you he is better for having lived here. I'm sure before he was drafted, he was much like you in terms of his level of understanding of both city and country.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*You guys are missing my point...*

I'm not slamming your city or your country, even though the NYPD could take it over...relax, just kidding. Toronto is a fine place to visit and a great place to live, I'm sure. My point is just this: There is no indication that guys want to play for the Raptors. You're right....I'm going by history, but you guys are making your statements on a hope and a prayer. All I said is until there is some indication that the Raps can entice very good players to stay in Toronto, what I said is true and what YOU are saying is conjecture...so far.

I hate to tell you but VC was falling like a rock before he came back. Lots of teams didn't even want him. Playing well in NY(NJ) has revived his career. Think I'm wrong? Most people don't even know who is on the Raps team (outside of dedicated NBA fans), and Bosh would be all over the media if he palyed in one of the aforementioned markets. As I said...good luck in securing and keeping players. A successful Toronto is good for the league.


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## AirJordan™ (Nov 21, 2005)

*Re: Rumors On Rose Beginning To Wilt*



blowuptheraptors said:


> It is and it isn't. Same language. Better strippers. Great nightlife. Not so much soul-food. Lots of Jamaican and West Indians. Great shopping like 5th ave or Michigan ave. No legit ESPN but the same thing in TSN, Sportsnet and the Score that all have different foci so you can choose the coverage you like bettter.
> 
> Customs is really nothing. I don't know how much you guys have gone between the two countries. But through our airport, as long as you're not bringing back lots of smokes or booze, you won't have a problem Usually its a 60 second conversation. And considering there are always 12 to 20 agents on duty the line-ups are never more than 3-5 mins.
> 
> ...


Niice post.


New York is a great city. Toronto is a great city.

Easy Guys :cheers:


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Rumors On Rose Beginning To Wilt*

nobody is denying toronto of being a nice city.

but the typical american ball player doesnt know anything about toronto or canada, customs and what not...just like i dont....which would play a role in pickin a team. not everyone is gonna look up or ask about these things,especially when theres other options.

im jus sayin...

the worst location is however is Utah...hardly any black ball players wanna play there cause of the lack of black people in general over there...

some players dont wanna play in NY cuz their afraid of the media.....

its all preference.....and i believe many players dont look that open mindedly about toronto


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: You guys are missing my point...*



alphadog said:


> I'm not slamming your city or your country, even though the NYPD could take it over...relax, just kidding. Toronto is a fine place to visit and a great place to live, I'm sure. My point is just this: There is no indication that guys want to play for the Raptors. You're right....I'm going by history, but you guys are making your statements on a hope and a prayer. All I said is until there is some indication that the Raps can entice very good players to stay in Toronto, what I said is true and what YOU are saying is conjecture...so far.
> 
> I hate to tell you but VC was falling like a rock before he came back. Lots of teams didn't even want him. Playing well in NY(NJ) has revived his career. Think I'm wrong? Most people don't even know who is on the Raps team (outside of dedicated NBA fans), and Bosh would be all over the media if he palyed in one of the aforementioned markets. As I said...good luck in securing and keeping players. A successful Toronto is good for the league.


I never said you were slamming anything.

I won't get into VC falling like a Rock because it is a totally different discussion.

I don't know that we are arguing here. What we are really talking about is whether or not the current braintrust/organisation can convince its players to stay as the old one convinced its core of Vince, AD, JYD, a once healthy Alvin Willams to stay and an ill-advised, but much applauded at the time signing of Hakeem Olajuwon.

We are not arguing about the city, because clearly, the city had no impact diminishing Vince Carter's popularity, or the ability to keep and draw players from that past nucleus. How could VC be the #1 vote getter while here even on his down years?

Bottom line is that it comes down to money and winning. This team will pay. They just need to put the wins up.

This thread gives you a little insight on what Bosh is thinking.

http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/showthread.php?t=232650


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## butr (Mar 23, 2004)

*Re: Rumors On Rose Beginning To Wilt*



The True Essence said:


> nobody is denying toronto of being a nice city.
> 
> but the typical american ball player doesnt know anything about toronto or canada, customs and what not...just like i dont....which would play a role in pickin a team. not everyone is gonna look up or ask about these things,especially when theres other options.
> 
> ...


This is true. What is funny is that Jose Calderon (rookie guard) chose Toronto over Detroit 1 because Toronto had the longest and strongest interest and 2 he prefered the more European feel of the city compared to Detroit, despite their success on the court. This is something while lost on Americans that as you put it are "ignorant", puts us in favour with regards to Euros.


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## BIGsHOTBOY12345 (Aug 24, 2005)

*Re: Rumors On Rose Beginning To Wilt*

Im usually here to break the ice, so please stay on topic, and dont diss each others teams. shokem, and knicks fans, both of our teams oare not doing well, so dont diss each other..... stick to posting about rose being dealt!!!


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

*Re: Rumors On Rose Beginning To Wilt*

of course with europeans, they are moving to a different country regardless, so they dont mind at all.

a player like vince carter, he grew to love toronto after being drafted there. Bosh may start to love it there as well.

But for players that didnt start out there, they may not like the idea.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Take it easy, big boy....*

Nobody is dissing anybody. We're just having some fun while discussing different opinions. I can definitely appreciate Blowup's view and it is a pleasure to read opposing thoughts that are insightful. I think he's right about some of the things he said....Euros are probably more at home in Canada, for one. Its ok to stray from the topic a bit as long as its productive discussion.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

*Re: Rumors On Rose Beginning To Wilt*

Yeah, guys, I really wasn't trying to stir up anything, and I probably should disclose that prior to the Raps coming into the league, the Knicks where my favourite and still hold a place in my sports heart.

I've been to New York many times and have seen the Knicks play at MSG more times then I've been to the ACC to watch the Raps.

I didn't want to offend anyone when saying the Knicks where this or that, I said that simply to prove the point that just because one is a larger market (the largest) doesn't always mean success.

Just wanted to get that out there, and apologize to Kitty and anyone else I may have ticked off.

Toronto and New York are really similar cities. I'd say Toronto is a mix of NY and Chi-town, with a distintive Canadian edge. I realize that a lot of American people may not get the chance to see TO, and that causes a perception that's hard to erase. But also remember Toronto has been in the league for a while now, and the Jays have done a lot of good at changing the perception a lot of American athletes have of the city.

It's a different sport, I know, but the jays signed four big names FA's this year and yes, had to over pay a bit, but the players were willing to come.

Anyways, peace to all you NY's.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Hey Shook...*

I wasn't implying that a large market guaranteed success. I was only pointing out that it is much easier to attract a larger cross section of players to one of these places. The Knicks and the Bulls (sans MJ), and the Clips are living proof that there is no guarantee.

Later


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## Tragedy (Dec 9, 2002)

*Re: Hey Shook...*



alphadog said:


> I wasn't implying that a large market guaranteed success. I was only pointing out that it is much easier to attract a larger cross section of players to one of these places. The Knicks and the Bulls (sans MJ), and the Clips are living proof that there is no guarantee.
> 
> Later


 The Clips have had a horrible tradition of losing and being stingy throughout the years.

The Bulls have always had a stigma after what went down when they broke up the dynasty.

The Knicks flat out just never had cap space.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

> Could the Knicks really be (finally!) virtually ze roed in on acquiring Jalen Rose? Despite long-term contention over Isiah Thomas' demand for a No. 1 pick (Denver's) from Toronto in a proposed deal involving Penny Hardaway, that's what I'm hearing from a reliable source.
> 
> It's unclear which team is willing to compromise, probably both, meaning the pick figures to be lottery-protected, maybe through as low as eight, something along those coordinates.


http://www.nypost.com/sports/59418.htm


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