# State Of The Cap: NYK



## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

> 2007/08 New York Knicks Payroll: *$87.7 Million*
> 2007/08 Estimated NBA Salary Cap: *$55 Million*
> Roughly: *$32.7 milli*on over cap
> 
> ...





> *The Bad:* The large savings in cap space is a step in the right direction, but bad contracts still abound on New York's roster. First and foremost are Stephon Marbury and Steve Francis. Marbury will amazingly cash checks for $20.1 and $21.9 million the next two seasons. Sure, Starbury is still capable of good games now and then, but you can easily find someone else to average 16.4 points and shoot 41.5% for less than half that price. Also, his 5.5 assists per game are a career low. Marbury could be very valuable after next season as a trading chip to a team looking to dump salary. At this point, that might be the best New York can hope for.
> 
> A few other contracts on the team are less costly, though they are still thorns in New York's side. The Jerome James signing is a disgrace. He can't even contribute more than 6 minutes a game. Speaking of 6, that's about how many millions Jerome will be paid each of the next three years.
> 
> Jared Jeffries was a silly pickup. Five years and $30 million dollars for 4 points a game and not much else? Well, at least there are only four years left to go in his contract. He did, after all, produce more than Malik Rose who will receive $7.1 and $7.6 million the next two seasons. Rose has had plenty of time to do his taxes while riding the bench. I won't even get into Quentin Richardson's and Jamal Crawford's long-term contracts since they do actually contribute something on the court (though neither of them can shoot worth a damn). Add it all up and it's easy to see why the Knicks are still the league leader in payroll.


 


> *The Future:* Once Isiah Thomas trampled the New York Knicks to their lowest point, he knew the only place they could go was up. In steps Isiah the coach to try to fix the mess caused by Isiah the GM.
> 
> There is a silver lining amid all the doom and gloom. New York has assembled a young core that looks promising and after next season, many of their bad contracts become valuable trading commodities. If they can find a way to jettison their me-first players for some team-oriented veterans, the Knicks might be able to climb back into the playoffs very soon. First on their list should be a guard who can make shots. When four of your top five scorers all shoot less than 42%, you've got problems. At least New York's outlook is a little less murky these days. With Isiah still in charge, that may not last long.





> *Free Throw: *Whatever happened to that Channing guy who looked so good last year? At one point, Channing Frye was the only Knick who was untouchable in trade requests. Now? Not so much. In his second season, Frye's numbers went down across the board despite a slight increase in minutes and he saw his thunder stolen by fellow sophomore David Lee. It is safe to say that Frye's ceiling has been lowered.
> 
> *Grade: D *


http://nbadraft.net/2007stateofthecapnewyork001.asp

Pretty much what I've been saying all along, Jeffries stinks, and Frye has been worse. The rest of the cast have been what we expected....see Jerome James. I'm still waiting for the wise guy who had the audacity to state we are in "rebuilding mode", not with a pay roll that is as big as Steph's light bulb head. lol


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## Krstic All-Star (Mar 9, 2005)

Isiah still has to resist the urge to make ridiculous trades, which he was able to do last season for once.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Buy out Francis's contract so he can sign with Houston for cheap


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## Krstic All-Star (Mar 9, 2005)

^ I see you're pushing that idea over at the Rockets forum too...

It would depend on what the buy-out amount was. If it was low, it could conceivably be in the Knicks' interests to do so, especially with Mardy Collins showing some promise at the point. (I can't consider Nate Robinson a PG, just can't do it) A trade would be more beneficial for the Knicks, but I don't see any realistic scenarios that would work.


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

i most definately wouldnt be against a steve francis buyout.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

I dont think the knicks should trade francis at the very least until all the big trade possibilities are no more because they need his contract to make deals.

and about the knicks cap situation, they have been double the salary cap for over 12 years , they will open next season at below that for the 1st time since the mid-90's

the knicks operate differently that most teams , they dont care about the salary cap and with the money they bring in they shouldn't no big market team should .


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*It's not the money, Grinch*

Its the lack of flexibility. While money isn't really a problem, the inability to go after big-time FAs is. Its just one less way to build your team. Without a major star (and we don't have one) the only way to get one is draft or trade. We don't have THAT kind of talent yet.


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## ChosenFEW (Jun 23, 2005)

*Re: It's not the money, Grinch*



alphaorange said:


> Its the lack of flexibility. While money isn't really a problem, *the inability to go after big-time FAs is*. Its just one less way to build your team. Without a major star (and we don't have one) the only way to get one is draft or trade. We don't have THAT kind of talent yet.



absolutely.....could you imagine if we could actually go after a big name FA. Money most certainly wouldnt be an option and the player also wouldn't have a problem coming to play in the biggest market either


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: It's not the money, Grinch*



alphaorange said:


> Its the lack of flexibility. While money isn't really a problem, the inability to go after big-time FAs is. Its just one less way to build your team. Without a major star (and we don't have one) the only way to get one is draft or trade. We don't have THAT kind of talent yet.



basically to do that you have to gut the team ...to get essentially 1 guy ....and the type of guys who are worth that much trouble rarely go on the free agent market .

who was the best FA last year ?

BEN wallace, a very good player but not some1 who can singlehandedly change the fortunes of a team around.

you are really better off for the most part going the way the knicks have gone for the most part , aquire compatible contracts and large ending deals along with good young talent to make deals.

there is no way to predict who will be out there 2-3 years from now while the knicks gut their team for a chance at a guy who may not want to go anywhere or may not be a big city guy .

flexibility only helps when its used correctly and luck is on your side that some1 is actually available worth starting over with...because thats really what you are suggesting.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: It's not the money, Grinch*



Da Grinch said:


> basically to do that you have to gut the team ...to get essentially 1 guy ....and the type of guys who are worth that much trouble rarely go on the free agent market .
> 
> who was the best FA last year ?
> 
> ...


Placing a piece of gum in an area that was design for a brand new brick is not a good look. It's not going to secure it, all it's going to do is hold it in place for a little while and then fall off and that is what the Knicks have been doing since we traded Ewing. Adding a piece here and there, instead of trying to do what's right and free up cap space. We need a player that at least resembles a superstar in order to be a successful franchise. We aren't just talking about free agents from last year, we talking about free agents since the Ewing era disappeared. How about when Kobe was a free agent? How did our financial situation look then? Like crap, so how long are we suppose to wait to establish some sort of playoff team? Enough is enough. By the time Lebron, Wade and Melo become free agents again, would we have enough cap space to sign them? Probably not, if we go along with your way of thinking in terms of building a team we will be screwed for years to come.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

Krstic All Star said:


> ^ I see you're pushing that idea over at the Rockets forum too...
> 
> It would depend on what the buy-out amount was. If it was low, it could conceivably be in the Knicks' interests to do so, especially with Mardy Collins showing some promise at the point. (I can't consider Nate Robinson a PG, just can't do it) A trade would be more beneficial for the Knicks, but I don't see any realistic scenarios that would work.


I seem to be one of the very few Rocket fans that seems as this type of experiment could somehow work. But that simply could be my optimistic side, as I do know Steve's faults. But like I stated in the Houston thread, I couldn't see it being any worse then our failed Bonzi Wells experiment so I am willing to give it a shot if all the pieces fall in as planned.

It looks as if a trade scenario would probably be unlikely, I just don't know of any teams that would be willing to deal for Francis, and make the package somewhat respectable. Minnesota maybe? They have a few contracts with players that might match, but as far a pieces, who knows...


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

Although Francis has value, it is far below his contract number....maybe by as much as 2X. His real value is as an expiring contract and that doesn't happen until the end of next year. He will have one year left at that point, I believe. 'Wolves may consider taking him as part of a package for Garnett because the dollars are needed to make a trade work and 2 years isn't so bad if he can play at all. If he retired from his current team because of injury, he becomes a salary cap non-entity, providing NBA doctors agree he is unfit to play. Might not be a bad gamble for the wolves.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: It's not the money, Grinch*



USSKittyHawk said:


> Placing a piece of gum in an area that was design for a brand new brick is not a good look. It's not going to secure it, all it's going to do is hold it in place for a little while and then fall off and that is what the Knicks have been doing since we traded Ewing. Adding a piece here and there, instead of trying to do what's right and free up cap space. We need a player that at least resembles a superstar in order to be a successful franchise. We aren't just talking about free agents from last year, we talking about free agents since the Ewing era disappeared. How about when Kobe was a free agent? How did our financial situation look then? Like crap, so how long are we suppose to wait to establish some sort of playoff team? Enough is enough. By the time Lebron, Wade and Melo become free agents again, would we have enough cap space to sign them? Probably not, if we go along with your way of thinking in terms of building a team we will be screwed for years to come.



the thing is this .

I deal in real facts most teams wont just give you a superstar even when its obvious they need to start over.

out of the considered 15 best players in the nba(going off the all nba teams here) , only 3 have played for more than one team , nash , t-mac and arenas , and they changed the rules to make sure a guy in arenas' situation cant leave like he did.

t-mac was traded after be basically quit on them and his team won 21 games , and nash was traded well before he was a star and was not resigned by the mavs because they thought he wasn't worth it .and mcgrady was signed as a 21 year old before he was a star


thats really 2 out of 15....and neither were considered worth gutting your team at the time, tracy was considered a poor consolation prize at the time because duncan decided to stay a spur

and only nash was signed away from his team in a manner that could be done today and if he were playing then like he is now he would have stayed in dallas and every1 knows it.

there are teams under the salary cap every season about 3 or 4 and sometimes they are big market teams , chicago gutted their team for big cap space and basically was only able to get ron mercer in 2000, missing out on t-mac .

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2654216

here is a list of 2007 free agents if the knicks were 15 mil. to spend ...who would they get that would be worth gutting the team?

and could they really get them?

are you proposing staying under the cap by 15 million or so for years ...how many ?

and how come that doesn't work for teams like atlanta a city i assure you young black men like to be in as much as new york.

Kobe could have been a clipper if he really wanted to leave , he still would have been in a big city making max $ and he would have been with a young nucleus as good as any in the league (brand livingston, maggette, and kamen), he just wanted to be courted which is why he even visited teams with only the MLE to spare , but he never really considered them.


Real superstars dont leave unless their reasons outside of basketball make it a good idea.

Grant hill left for orlando because thats where his wife wanted to go , same for boozer in utah and if carter leaves NJ he is going to florida and no amount of knick cap space cant stop that.

gilbert arenas flipped a coin for his decision of wash. or the clippers , he really didn't care one way or the other ...and his free agency cant be repeated , just like boozer's because they have changed the rules on rfa's.

lebron melo and wade are not going anywhere because of cap space ...as always there will be teams with cap space waiting for them like last offseason when they weren't available because they already resigned for more money than any other team can offer them, they have to want to leave and usually if the player does not want to be there the team already knows about it and trades them.

Kevin garnett is not going to get a chance to leave the t'wolves high and dry , they will trade him b4 that happens, same goes for j'oneal or any other superstar worth his salt....its always easier to trade for them,


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Uh.....AI ring a bell?*

Shaq?....Webber?....Penny....Kidd.....Mourning....Barkley...Stevie "franchise" (when he WAS the franchise).....Marbury....Joe Johnson. Lots of others over the last 10 years. Not to mention all the others that were signed as FAs for less than their ultimate value and blew up (Tmac and Arenas, H2o), Stars get traded all the time and some of the guys you are talking about WILL get traded or signed. 'Melo doesn't finish in Denver...bank on it. If James stays in Ohio it's because its his hometown. Although you might think you are dealing in reality, it is common knowledge in business that keeping your options open and increasing them is the way to success. Pigeon-holing your methods is not smart business and it has gotten us NOWHERE for 2 decades. '99 was a fluke year because of the strike. It may be your opinion that we don't need the option of signing FAs, but mine is different. One thing you are apparently overlooking is the fact that although salaries are huge for most of the superstars, it is improbable that they will continue to be so. You simply cannot build around them at that level given the nature of the cap.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Btw....*

It is smart business for Minnesota to trade Garnett now. He is at his peak and they will never get more for him. It would be different if they REALLY had a chance to get to the finals, but they don't. A smart GM gets as much rebuilding pieces as he can and puts himself in a position to deal while the value is high. Major FAs, undoubtedly, will be tough for the 'wolves to attract. Unless the Suns decide to go all or nothing (not their style), the Knicks are in as good a position as anybody, especially if they get involved with a 3rd team (Seattle, Atlanta?). They have the contracts, the youth, and can still throw a pick or 2 into the mix. Despite his bad year, Frye is a real talent, Morris has potential, Nate would be huge in Seattle, Jeffries or Balkman, and even JC could go. NY could also afford to pick up an additional bad contract to sweeten the pot. I prefer to see Curry and Lee stay to work the frontcourt with KG, with Marbury and Collins in the back. I also would like to keep Balkman. Bottom line is I think Minnesota has to end up with 2 quality starters and a pick. Sounds about right for a 30 YO star.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: Uh.....AI ring a bell?*



alphaorange said:


> Shaq?....Webber?....Penny....Kidd.....Mourning....Barkley...Stevie "franchise" (when he WAS the franchise).....Marbury....Joe Johnson. Lots of others over the last 10 years. Not to mention all the others that were signed as FAs for less than their ultimate value and blew up (Tmac and Arenas, H2o), Stars get traded all the time and some of the guys you are talking about WILL get traded or signed. 'Melo doesn't finish in Denver...bank on it. If James stays in Ohio it's because its his hometown. Although you might think you are dealing in reality, it is common knowledge in business that keeping your options open and increasing them is the way to success. Pigeon-holing your methods is not smart business and it has gotten us NOWHERE for 2 decades. '99 was a fluke year because of the strike. It may be your opinion that we don't need the option of signing FAs, but mine is different. One thing you are apparently overlooking is the fact that although salaries are huge for most of the superstars, it is improbable that they will continue to be so. You simply cannot build around them at that level given the nature of the cap.


i deal in basic facts, most stars when they leave their teams are traded , not leaving their team to sign with another via free agency .

its just a much more likely happening to get a star with a big contract of your own and some youth than to gut your team for a few years and hope a star wants to leave his and then chooses yours over the other 3-5 teams who have gutted their teams for the same chance at him....because despite what people think all gutted teams look alike , just a team who cant play because they are too young and not very good because the vets are scrubs(you usually get what you pay for)

there is no real difference between most of the bottom feeders in the nba , most a have a star and a bunch of players who are just too young or just not really very good vets to make them good enough to get to the playoffs(boston, memphis , hawks seattle and bucks all pretty much meet that description) who really wants to go and play for them ?

also at this point a trade for a star can happen this offseason , the time for gutting the team was in 2000 when ewing was traded ...in fact just keeping him and letting his deal run out would have been much better than what Layden did in flipping his contract for glen rice and then flipping rice for shandon and eisley...anderson's deal is still on the cap for almost 9 mil.

at this point its better to make a deal by a huge margin, thats not the case for every team the bobcats for instance should probably save their space until their guy comes along....but for the knicks its crazy to think its smarter to gut the team at this point just for a chance at guys who may not even be on the market in 3 years.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Who's talking about gutting the team? nm*

nm


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

USSKittyHawk said:


> http://nbadraft.net/2007stateofthecapnewyork001.asp
> 
> Pretty much what I've been saying all along, Jeffries stinks, and Frye has been worse. The rest of the cast have been what we expected....see Jerome James. I'm still waiting for the wise guy who had the audacity to state we are in "rebuilding mode", not with a pay roll that is as big as Steph's light bulb head. lol


I believe the "wise guy" your referring to is me but if you think that a sportswriter having a similar opinion to yours somehow validates your stance, you've been sadly mistaken. Just yesterday I read how some douche thought trading Amare Stoudemire and the Suns no.4 pick for Kevin Garnett was a good idea. I also remember how a few years ago, Marc Stein stated how the Marbury to the Knicks trade would be remembered as the Maceji Lampe trade. Boy, how right he was (insert sarcasm and hysterical laughter). Those guys have nothing more knowledge wise than a majority of the people on message boards and its evident through their writing.

P.S., I think certain members need to stop being so bull headed and listen to or at least consider other opinions other than their own. I reasoned earlier that what people categorize as rebuilding is exactly what we're doing and people like yourself offered no real retort to that. Rebuilding as they categorize it is a complete upheavel where you get younger and your payroll decreases. Last time I checked, the average age of your team going from about 32 (when Isiah got it) to about 25 (presently), with no players from 3 years ago, and a payroll that dropped from $120 to about $80 million fits that description to the "T." Hell, us going through the growing pains of trying how to win is even considered rebuilding because most young teams usually take time to figure that out. Just because we got New York across our jerseys does not mean that we are someone exempt from this and that we always have to be good. Patience is the key here and that is something even I fully haven't embraced. I'm sure things will get better.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: It's not the money, Grinch*



Da Grinch said:


> http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2654216
> 
> here is a list of 2007 free agents if the knicks were 15 mil. to spend ...who would they get that would be worth gutting the team?
> 
> ...


 
Cut it out Grinch, because you know good and well a young black men would pick New York over Atlanta any day of the week. We are the media capital of the world, and the endorsement deals you will receive would sweeten the pot. Can you imagine the free agents that comes here... that envision themselves on one of those fancy billboards in Time Square next to P-Diddy? 

I think you're underestimating the fact that the Knicks can be very attractive to free agents regardless if they wanted to stay home or not. Not to get off the topic of basketball, but Roger Clemens who claimed so bad that he wanted to end his career in his hometown of Houston is back in NY once again. The Astros would have paid him and gave him the same accommodations, but he elected to go to NY. 

I honestly believe we would have had a legitimate shot at landing #24 if we had the cap space. Lastly, it's just financially irresponsible to shell out so much money to players who consistently underacheive, and just enhance our chances of landing in the lottery season after season. We been doing the lottery thing for how long now? How many playoff appearances and how many times have we advance since Layden and Isiah took over without shedding salary? Think long and hard because the last rally towel I received was in 2000. I guess you love ping pong balls, because at the rate we going that's all we going to see every year, and pray that one of these days we land an impact lottery player that can take us back to the good old days. I think all in all we want to start winning again, but it hurts when we continue to make the same mistakes over and over by overpaying for bums.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Mostly right, Kitty*

Except those lotto balls you talk about are getting to be someone else's every year.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: It's not the money, Grinch*



USSKittyHawk said:


> Cut it out Grinch, because you know good and well a young black men would pick New York over Atlanta any day of the week. We are the media capital of the world, and the endorsement deals you will receive would sweeten the pot. Can you imagine the free agents that comes here... that envision themselves on one of those fancy billboards in Time Square next to P-Diddy?
> 
> I think you're underestimating the fact that the Knicks can be very attractive to free agents regardless if they wanted to stay home or not. Not to get off the topic of basketball, but Roger Clemens who claimed so bad that he wanted to end his career in his hometown of Houston is back in NY once again. The Astros would have paid him and gave him the same accommodations, but he elected to go to NY.
> 
> I honestly believe we would have had a legitimate shot at landing #24 if we had the cap space. Lastly, it's just financially irresponsible to shell out so much money to players who consistently underacheive, and just enhance our chances of landing in the lottery season after season. We been doing the lottery thing for how long now? How many playoff appearances and how many times have we advance since Layden and Isiah took over without shedding salary? Think long and hard because the last rally towel I received was in 2000. I guess you love ping pong balls, because at the rate we going that's all we going to see every year, and pray that one of these days we land an impact lottery player that can take us back to the good old days. I think all in all we want to start winning again, but it hurts when we continue to make the same mistakes over and over by overpaying for bums.



To be honest, I do not think it's fair to really categorize young black men as wanting to be in either New York or in Atlanta. Personally, I don't particularly care for either city as a young black man myself and know several different people in my situation that feel the same way. Still, I know that right now there are alot more young black men heading south to cities like Atlanta than are coming here to New York, so go figure. Ultimately in today's world, I think that the guys who are capable of getting endorsement dollars will get them whereever they go because of how digitized the world has become and is becoming. And I think the whole P-Diddy thing is irrelevant because alot of stars now are coming from the South so there is alot more attention of the area.

As for the Roger Clemens comparison, your comparing apples and oranges. Baseball does not have the financial restrictions nor does it operate in the same manner as the NBA. In baseball you can go out and get your Roger Clemens and then continue to add all the stars you want (see the Yankees) without any kind of issue. In the NBA, you have the cap. You could go out and get your Roger Clemens but that is all your going to get, so then what? Who you going to put next to him to help you win? This is a team game so no one man can do t on his own and I think the players themselves know that. That is exactly why you hardly, if ever have seen a superstar SIGN as a FA with a different team. They know that as good as they are, there going to need people around them and they won't have those people in the kind of situations where they can legally sign a contract.

We been a lottery team for 3 years but what are you going to expect from a rebuilding team? We've given up some lottery picks but at the same time have gained several other first round picks in the process. Over the course of 2 years we have added 5 first round draft picks, 6 if you can count Randolph Morris as a draft pick. We very well may add a second draft pick to this years draft but as it would stand, we have added 7 first round draft picks in a matter of 3 years. What other team in the league can boast that? What other team in the league has ever done that? Give it time because what we're experiencing now is nothing more than what every other rebuilding team experiences when starting over. Just because we have New York on the front of our jersey does not exempt us from this process.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*Some of what you talk about...*

is beyond anything my experience allows me to comment on. I am neither young, nor black. Although I do think the digital wave has narrowed the gap as far as endorsements go, there is still a gulf between what is available in, say, Minnesota and what is available in LA or NY. One final observation on why so many "superstars" are never signed as FAs: Under the current rule structure, it is absolute insanity to let your top player run to the end of his contract and then opt for free agency, leaving you with a major dip in your team talent. Nearly all teams will prefer to trade the player before this happens, securing either players, or players and picks to offset the loss. I really can't even remember the last time it happened, other than Kobe (which I believe was a done deal once Shaq left).

I also agree that the team is in the process of rebuilding, although it is far from "rebuilt". My current stance is that I hope IT uses all his creative resources to come up with a plan to secure KG without losing Lee, Collins, Curry, and Marbury. I would also love to keep Balkman, but not sure if that can happen. If he can make that happen, the team will not only be rebuilt, but fully operational and highly dangerous.


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## shookem (Nov 1, 2005)

Wow, another great thread to read guys, I'll have to come by the Knicks board more often.

IMO, if the Knicks can make a trade the should probably pull the trigger. 

The whole young black man thing is interesting. The media capital of the world ... you gotta think there's some people that would be swayed by something like that, not all but certainly some. Perhaps it's just a perception thing. A perceived advantage. In Toronto we are experiencing something similar with the Euro love. Would some European players prefer Toronto to small town USA or is that something that is just perceived?


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

*Re: It's not the money, Grinch*



USSKittyHawk said:


> Cut it out Grinch, because you know good and well a young black men would pick New York over Atlanta any day of the week. We are the media capital of the world, and the endorsement deals you will receive would sweeten the pot. Can you imagine the free agents that comes here... that envision themselves on one of those fancy billboards in Time Square next to P-Diddy?
> 
> I think you're underestimating the fact that the Knicks can be very attractive to free agents regardless if they wanted to stay home or not. Not to get off the topic of basketball, but Roger Clemens who claimed so bad that he wanted to end his career in his hometown of Houston is back in NY once again. The Astros would have paid him and gave him the same accommodations, but he elected to go to NY.
> 
> I honestly believe we would have had a legitimate shot at landing #24 if we had the cap space. Lastly, it's just financially irresponsible to shell out so much money to players who consistently underacheive, and just enhance our chances of landing in the lottery season after season. We been doing the lottery thing for how long now? How many playoff appearances and how many times have we advance since Layden and Isiah took over without shedding salary? Think long and hard because the last rally towel I received was in 2000. I guess you love ping pong balls, because at the rate we going that's all we going to see every year, and pray that one of these days we land an impact lottery player that can take us back to the good old days. I think all in all we want to start winning again, but it hurts when we continue to make the same mistakes over and over by overpaying for bums.


new york is a great city and I love it.

but honestly , when was the last time a knicks was a true to life media darling who made some real $ because he was a knick .

think about it Sebastian Telfair out of high school had a 40 mil. addidas contract and he is essentailly a scrub right now , he may not always be one , but he is 3rd string pg on a 20 something win team or at least he was until they removed his lil' nameplate.

i think the last 1 was Walt "Clyde" Frazier

it surely wasn't any of the superstars since him , Ewing , B. King ...or the mere stars since Clyde in Spree , H2O or Marbury .

No guys with catchy names laughing their way to the bank with deals like X-man or JYD or Kenny "Sky" Walker

Not the guy who finished 3rd in the rookie of the year voting behind Magic and Bird (Bill Cartwright with avg.'s of 21 and 8.7) or the guy who won the rookie of the year in 88 Mark Jackson.

no 6th men in starks and mase...or even the great white hope in david lee who every1 just loves , and certainly not Channing frye who looked like the real deal after a great rookie year ....not even the new franchise player in Eddy Curry 

Has any knick in the last 30 years had a bigger nationwide commercial that Clyde's "No play for Mister Gray" I think only Crawford has even had big time sneaker commercial and he had that as a Bull with Reebok(and he had really more of and ensemble part to truthful), this team has had big time players , big time coaches and a media giant as its main owner and the biggest , longest running commercial I believe a knick has had in the last 20 years was supplied directly by cablevision in Wiz commercials....sheesh 2 years ago they were using cardboard cutouts instead of players in their commercials. 

Baseball players cash in , Hockey players can cash in , but Ive yet to see new york the city make a true media star in basketball in my lifetime, so pardon me if I think the rep is overblown at least with basketball.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

*Re: It's not the money, Grinch*



Da Grinch said:


> new york is a great city and I love it.
> 
> but honestly , when was the last time a knicks was a true to life media darling who made some real $ because he was a knick .
> 
> ...


Good points Grinch, but I'm going to have to disagree to a degree. IMO Ewing was the last "superstar" that wore a Knick uniform. H20 (who I loved dearly) was never a superstar and Starks as well. We may have paid them like one, but they weren't superstars or sha'll I say "Franchise Players". Ewing didn't get the endorsement deals and become a "media darling" because he didn't have the charisma and he didn't really care. He barely got along with the fans when he was here, so he is out of that equation. Clyde won the championships, and had the style to make him very appealing on a marketing level. With that said, I'm bringing back up the point about the salary cap space. If we had the cap room, we could have signed "superstars" like Kobe Bryant who would have definitely been the new Clyde Frazier and would have received the endorsement deals, which would have top near 100 million dollars depending on the sponsers. You really think Melo, Wade or Lebron would never become "media darlings" in your eyes? Instead, we spend out money on *bums*...instead of investing in players who can actually give us more than just ping pong ball.....and stress.


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## alphaorange (Jul 2, 2006)

*I may be wrong but...*

I think part of what is being said (by twink, I think), is that because of the digital age, star players with charisma become NATIONAL icons and the additional revenue bestowed on them from the city they play in is not that much more just because it is NY, etc. LeBron plays in CLEVELAND, and he is making enormous endorsement money. Would it be THAT much more in NY? I don't think so, but I'm not sure.


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## TwinkieFoot (Jul 8, 2006)

*Re: It's not the money, Grinch*



USSKittyHawk said:


> Good points Grinch, but I'm going to have to disagree to a degree. IMO Ewing was the last "superstar" that wore a Knick uniform. H20 (who I loved dearly) was never a superstar and Starks as well. We may have paid them like one, but they weren't superstars or sha'll I say "Franchise Players". Ewing didn't get the endorsement deals and become a "media darling" because he didn't have the charisma and he didn't really care. He barely got along with the fans when he was here, so he is out of that equation. Clyde won the championships, and had the style to make him very appealing on a marketing level. With that said, I'm bringing back up the point about the salary cap space. If we had the cap room, we could have signed "superstars" like Kobe Bryant who would have definitely been the new Clyde Frazier and would have received the endorsement deals, which would have top near 100 million dollars depending on the sponsers. You really think Melo, Wade or Lebron would never become "media darlings" in your eyes? Instead, we spend out money on *bums*...instead of investing in players who can actually give us more than just ping pong ball.....and stress.



Kobe passed up the chance to play for a team that was in a much better situation to win than us with the Clippers, who also happened to be in a market, LA, that is on the same level as a New York. What makes you think that because we have New York on our jersey that Kobe would have signed with us if we were in the same situation as the Clippers financially speaking? Hell, cap space does not even offer you the ability to match what the players former team can offer so that decreases the likelihood of a superstar signing with us even more. Da Grinch hit it right on the head when he said that alot of times, these superstars don't even get teh opportunity to even hit the FA waters. That's why it does not matter whether Lebron, Wade or Melo would become media darlings here because they have not even gotten the chance to really go somewhere else and likely never will.

Essentially, all of this puts us right back into the position we are in now signing role players. That does not sound like an improvement at all to me. Besides, what more do you expect out of role players for $5 million? You act as though we should be finding stars for that can change games for us when that is not the case anywhere else in the league. Usually, the guys that come along with that price tag either swim or float because of the guys on he team that can elevate their game. We are in a position right now where we are too young to have our players know how to elevate the others game on this level.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

I loved Ewing, always have . I am big Georgetown fan and he had a alot to do with that , That other fans choose not to gravitate to him imo is their loss.

My point with all that was not to illustrate all the non-superstars to come to the knicks in the past 22 years but to show you media darlings are really nothing of the sort if people are clamoring to see you the media will make it happen because its a business too.

either you have it or you dont and it really doesn't matter anymore where you show you have it anymore ...did any1 even see sebastain play in High school ? I think 1 of his games was nationally televised in his senior season ...and yet he had a deal bigger than any knick while he is at the moment barely in the nba.

Kobe doesn't need to be a knick to have lots of endorsement income , no player does , we are not in that world anymore , sneaker companies might put in clauses to get players in big cities ...so far it hasn't been enough for any to want to be a knick for less nor has it been enough to force a player to coerce a team into sending him to NY 

also I didn't claim H20 to be a superstar , I made the distinction between his type and true superstars like ewing. I believe I used the term "mere" stars for Houston and similarly impactful players

and that title stuff is crazy, MJ was the nba's biggest marketing force long before his team even got past the 1st round, Either people want to be like you or they dont , Frazier didn't need titles for people to be wowed by his style and grace or his playing ability.


Does AI need a title ? 

he has like a 10 year run of signature sneakers ...and his personal style and flair was a really big counter culture thing a few years back.

Heck marbury who is a knick has his biggest deal with Steve and Barry's a company that has exactly 1 store in the 5 boroughs, and while he is doing big things with it , its wierd because of the lack of exposure (no commercials or ads , plus there is just 1 store in all of NYC, if he were in cleveland where Steve and barry's are actually based (or close to it They are an Ohio based company for sure), it would probably be bigger .

I want to keep the highlight on this fact , if the knicks were actually to get rid of salaries it would most likely have to be with young players to make it plausible for the other teams to take back so much salary .

So what superstar would come to a barren team?

A superstar so concerned with money (even if he were able to somehow make significantly more) is he really a star you would want because his focus #1 priority would not be winning.


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## USSKittyHawk (Jul 22, 2005)

Da Grinch said:


> I
> 
> Heck marbury who is a knick has his biggest deal with Steve and Barry's a company that has exactly 1 store in the 5 boroughs, and while he is doing big things with it , its wierd because of the lack of exposure (no commercials or ads , plus there is just 1 store in all of NYC, if he were in cleveland where Steve and barry's are actually based (or close to it They are an Ohio based company for sure), it would probably be bigger .


Lack of exposure? Oprah just had him on her show today, giving his shoe line "exposure" and that is big news if you can get on Oprah. I'm going to end my side of the debate by saying this. The Knicks need to shed some salary cap in order to plan for the future. The Knicks record since Ewing's departure really supports my argument. We have had the highest payroll for quite some time now and just nothing to show for it. Why? Because we continue to spend money and give out these ridiculous contracts to bums and when a huge impact player becomes a free agent we don't have the room to attempt to sign them. We just going to have to agree to disagree on this, but my stance stands...you won't win until we learn to become financially responsible.


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## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

USSKittyHawk said:


> Lack of exposure? Oprah just had him on her show today, giving his shoe line "exposure" and that is big news if you can get on Oprah. I'm going to end my side of the debate by saying this. The Knicks need to shed some salary cap in order to plan for the future. The Knicks record since Ewing's departure really supports my argument. We have had the highest payroll for quite some time now and just nothing to show for it. Why? Because we continue to spend money and give out these ridiculous contracts to bums and when a huge impact player becomes a free agent we don't have the room to attempt to sign them. We just going to have to agree to disagree on this, but my stance stands...you won't win until we learn to become financially responsible.


in truth the knicks aren't really signing anything more than MLE
's and most of Layden era mistakes as far as funds management are being erased

H20's contract gone 

shandon's contract which is the scary remnant of whats left of the ewing deal (basically ewing for glen rice with some parts and glen rice for shandon and eisley) is now gone.

JYD's contract which was aquired by Zeke is gone too.

I strongly doubt francis makes it to preseason as a knicks and basically he and marbury are whats left of the nene and camby for mcdyess fiasco, unfortunately the odds are he is going to be bought out ...i would prefer if there are no real takers to send him to minny for some defenders of which they actually have too many of and the knicks too few.

randolph , frye , lee , robinson , mardy and balkman are essentially on rookie deals ....with a new pick on the way.

qrich and crawford basically make some very long term MLE deals, when healthy they are worth it. 

Curry is actually underpaid right now considering he makes less than basically all the young talented bigs who have been resigned over the past 2 years in dalembert , tyson chandler , Nene, Troy murphy ...all make more than curry's 6 yr 56 million deal.

basically the MLE's are what people are killing Zeke over and Vin is long gone , jerome was made unimportant before he ever played a game because of curry. and jeffries could be decent but more than likely balkman and Lee will put him on the 3rd string basically no matter what he does....the knicks success or failure has little to do with his signings and i think most know this.

i expect Morris will be the backup center along with frye if no deal is made, with james being a very expensive insurance policy , not bad for 3rd string but honestly if frye and morris are playing well would it even matter what james is doing?

marbury is getting exposed because of him , he is hustling , the fact that he is a knick means just about nothing ...did Ophrah even mention he was a knick?

or was it about the sneaker movement?

also its a strong possiblity that if the knicks dont use their MLE that they wont have the highest payroll next season and they apparently wont according to them.

they wont be double the cap next year for the 1st time in 13 years no matter what they do ...it would take some insane contract adding for that to happen , on that alone Zeke has been something of a skinflint comparatively speaking...i dont even know who the GM was in 94 the last time that happened.

far too many people worry about the bean counting, the knicks aren't Utah, the will be ok if they have to pay the luxury tax and salary flexibity only matters if some1 wants to take it to play with substandard players which is usually what happens when an nba is below the cap enough to get a max player....and seeing how it takes years to be in position it means nothing for individual seasons for instance he would have crash the team jet to get under the cap next season.

the knicks have pretty good but not great young talent, an OK coach and a decent GM...pretty much with avg health what amounts to great depth they should be in the playoffs and probably would have been if they enjoyed ok health in the final 2 months of the season...i suggest enjoying their growth and hoping for the best.

I dont think Kitty you want to see a team thats actively ridding themselves of talent so that 3 years down the line they will have a chance of the new hot player only not to get him or to see him re-up with his team in the fall before the the knicks have all that $...it happens all the time which is why the teams who have the cap space seem to always have it, more importantly its depressing for all parties involved , the players who know management doesn't care for the guys there , the fans who are resigned to losing before the seaon unfolds and for seasons into the future , sports is in great part about hope and when those things happen , the hope is gone...you can hold onto the Kobe fantasy if you want but even he admitted his big reason for becoming a free agent was so that he could experience being recruited , which is why he had great things to say about every1 at that time ....he loved paxson and the bulls ...he loved elgin and the clippers and yes he loved Zeke and the knicks .the day he resigned with the lakers the clippers thought he was coming to their offices to sign with them,

but ultimately he chose the Lakers , which I think every1 knew was going to be his choice all along.


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