# will the real tim/nazr



## inapparent

please stand up? It's hard not to think there's an effort problem when these two can produce such sparkling and dismal numbers depending on the day of the week. This is not a match-up issue, the inconsistency is too consistent. I know they're allowed a certain amount of time to "jell," etc on their new team. But these wildly varying performances happened on their previous teams as well. We may have to get used to this see-saw effect as being *exactly* what we're gonna get, i.e., frustration, temptation, disappointment, elation, and back again--in other words, not playoff caliber basketball consistency. Thoughts? Am I being premature?


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## Rashidi

> This is not a match-up issue, the inconsistency is too consistent.


Actually it is a matchup issue. TT played a lot of minutes at PF this game, against a converted SF (Kenny Thomas). Nazr on the other hand played 40 minutes. Considering that he and Dalembert were the only good rebounders on the court, the fact that both grabbed 14 or 15 in 40 minutes is kinda predictable given the circumstances.

Nazr is capable of a double double, and the story of TT's career is that he's inconsistent and unwilling to work.

I think it's funny that the Bucks lost Glenn Robinson, Ray Allen, Sam Cassell, and Gary Payton, and Tim Thomas DIDN'T step up his game. Michael Redd did. TT is making max money, and the Bucks traded 4 all-stars. It is pathetic that he wasn't averaging 20 ppg. The Suns traded Marbury, and look at Joe Johnson now, scoring 21 ppg since the Marbury trade (yet another reason why they got the better end). Why did TT not step up in Milwuakee? And why do people expect him to step up now, with Marbury taking all the shots?


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## dcrono3

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Actually it is a matchup issue. TT played a lot of minutes at PF this game, against a converted SF (Kenny Thomas). Nazr on the other hand played 40 minutes. Considering that he and Dalembert were the only good rebounders on the court, the fact that both grabbed 14 or 15 in 40 minutes is kinda predictable given the circumstances.
> 
> Nazr is capable of a double double, and the story of TT's career is that he's inconsistent and unwilling to work.
> 
> I think it's funny that the Bucks lost Glenn Robinson, Ray Allen, Sam Cassell, and Gary Payton, and Tim Thomas DIDN'T step up his game. Michael Redd did. TT is making max money, and the Bucks traded 4 all-stars. It is pathetic that he wasn't averaging 20 ppg. The Suns traded Marbury, and look at Joe Johnson now, scoring 21 ppg since the Marbury trade (yet another reason why they got the better end). Why did TT not step up in Milwuakee? And why do people expect him to step up now, with Marbury taking all the shots?


keep in mind that TT is a converted SF too. I'm pretty sure his natural position is SF. 12 rebounds is good, but that is probably a result of the poor shooting by both teams (mostly iverson and houston, 4/34 combined) Nazr is a good center in the east IMO and hopefully he can produce like this every night.

I guess that some of us hope TT can step up because of it is a new environment and he happens toplay for his hometown team. I would be fired up if I ever (will never) got to play for the Knicks. However, our hopes seem to be getting nowhere.


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## son of oakley

From all accounts, that Milwaulkee team had terrible chemistry. They didn't just trade away TT, he was the last piece of a total blow-up or their core. 

The thing that's been missing in TTs game is consistency. He's not beng asked to be the team leader, or become a great defender, or a big rebounder, or master some fancy new hook shot. Just to play his game with effort every night. I see no reason that would not be obtainable for him in the right environment. Noit saying you can take it to the bank that he will, but with his *hometown* team, why not...


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## son of oakley

BTW, taking out the Phoenix game where TT got hurt (and got 2 pts and 2 rebs in 3 mins), over their last five games:

TT = 19.4 pts, 5.8 rebs, .8 turnovers
KVH = 19 pts, 7.2 rebs, 2.4 turnovers

As Knick chemistry improves and they start to win again one will really have to ask themselves if this trade is still worth crying about.


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## truth

After watching TT play last night,and fully realising it was against a terrible team,you could see Isiahs logic in the trade....TT is FAR more ATHLETIC than KVH...I am not saying he is better,but he is a much better running mate to Marbury than KVH....In my mind,the whole key to the trade is Houstons health....He is basically our perimeter game and a healthy H20 makes KVH expendable....With H20 healthy and back,we needed a athletic slasher with a decent post up perimeter game..TT is exactly that.....

You have to give this trade at least a month and now that the lineup is supposedly set and H20 is playing we can make a fair judgement

By the way,its about #$%&^% time we have a nasty dunker on the team:upset:


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## alphadog

Oak...no offense but you are full of it. Three games is not nearly a large enough sample to compare. Why not just take one game? Remove last nights 12 rebound game and he averaged less than 4.5. Remove his game at Sac and what is his scoring average over the remaining 4 games? With such small samples large anomalies with scew the results widely. And you know as well as I do that TT scoring more than 30 and boarding more than 10 are anomalies. 12 rebounds and a win against the hapless Sixers is nothing to get excited about. Everyone, including me, wants him to be great but he is soft and lazy. It has nothing to do with his situation in Milwaukee.


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## alphadog

Wrong, Truth. He is not a decent perimeter play and only a mediocre post up player unless he is "on". Athletic? Yes. There are tons of guys in the league with great athleticism that are not very good players. TT is one of them. And if you think VH didn't get out and run with Marbury, you are nuts. He finished plenty of breaks. TT is not THAT much more athletic. As far as needing a slasher....baloney. I haven't seen much slashing so far and the word slasher is used to describe an athletic guy who can't shoot. They used to be called backups or situational players.


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## son of oakley

> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> Oak...no offense but you are full of it. Three games is not nearly a large enough sample to compare. Why not just take one game? Remove last nights 12 rebound game and he averaged less than 4.5. Remove his game at Sac and what is his scoring average over the remaining 4 games? With such small samples large anomalies with scew the results widely. And you know as well as I do that TT scoring more than 30 and boarding more than 10 are anomalies. 12 rebounds and a win against the hapless Sixers is nothing to get excited about. Everyone, including me, wants him to be great but he is soft and lazy. It has nothing to do with his situation in Milwaukee.



I assume you know when you wrote 3 games it was a typo, I used five games. It's a common comparator you see on various statistical sites. And they've only been with their teams a very short time. We can extend it to six or seven games and get similar results, beyond that it's pre-trade.

People were posting VH's stats on a nightly basis for gods sake. If TT has a 33 pt game people dog him for only haing 2 rebs! One of the reasons the stats are what they are is because KVH had a night with 4 pts and 4 turnovers. What can I tell ya, it happened, I don't make this stuff up.

You want to tell me I'm full of it for thinking a player can be more consitent in a new environment you can, but I think you're full of it if you think otherwise. So far the stats suppot my end. But don't let it get you upset.

As for what a slasher is. Sure "a slasher" may be guy who can't shoot, but it's no less one-dimensional than "a jumpshooter" who can't slash. What's appreciated in TT is that he has a few components to his game: Shoot, post, slash. If you saw his dunk on Camembert last night you'd have an idea what I mean.


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## truth

WRONG ALFA.....


> TT is not THAT much more athletic


You must be joking....KVH hasnt dunked like TT did last night since his days at Utah.....

Mind you,I am comparing athleticism,not productivity....



> He is not a decent perimeter play and only a mediocre post up player unless he is "on".


Check the numbers before you make statements like that..TT has taken more 3pt shots than KVH in his career and hits a higher percentage...TT also has the same fg% as KVH...So how is it TT is not a decent perimeter player????

Not only that,But for their respective careers KVH Playing time is 18% more than TT..Yet he has hoisted up 36 percent more shots..The only thing KVH does better is rebound,and he makes up for it with turning the ball over


The Knicks had a very unathletic front line...Isiahs belief is that we needed to get more athletic..Hes the GM,its his perrogative and I am willing to wait before I make a rash judgement...



> Everyone, including me, wants him to be great but he is soft and lazy.


Let me get this straight...KVH owns the label soft,yet you defend KVH...As for TT being lazy,his teamates certainly would second that,but they all say he can be as good as he decides to be...Maybe Isiah believes he can bring that out in him

I dont think the numbers back up your subjectivity regarding the trade..Ild be happy for you to prove me wrong


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## truth

> I haven't seen much slashing so far and the word slasher is used to describe an athletic guy who can't shoot. They used to be called backups or situational players.


That is YOUR definition of slasher and you are certainly entitled to it,but dont tell me that is THE defintion

sorry dude


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## HKF

Tim has been playing well. I just hope the team goes on a little run now, so the bashing will stop and the enjoyment of the season will begin.


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## truth

And for all you TT bashers.......

Do you guys realise the ONLY thing KVH is doing substantially more than TT is turn the ball over???Like 2.27 times as much.....

I am neither for or against the trade though i do see Isiahs logic...
The critisism of TT is not justified,especially on a relative basis to KVH...

What is completely true is the Knicks have a losing record since the trade...Feel free to blame that completely on TT,but I would take a closer look at Marburys numbers over that stretch..He is what makes this team go,like it or not


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## son of oakley

> Let me get this straight...KVH owns the label soft,yet you defend KVH...


Don't ya love it? VH played well for us. but, Thomas has too. Yet somehow VH is remembered as basked in golden light sporting a halo as a crown. :angel:

I propose we give TT+Nazr & VH+Doleac 20 games each on their present teams, subtract out any games that a player plays an inordinantely few number of minutes, and then compare the productivity of TT+NAZR vs VH+Doleac. Sound fair?

Place your wagers.


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## son of oakley

btw, truth, I'm coming around on sweetney. He's got a certain grace under that awkward frame. I think he's gonna muscle up be a nice contributer next year. Looks like he might even have a touch at 15 feet or so.


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## son of oakley

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> Check the numbers before you make statements like that..TT has taken more 3pt shots than KVH in his career and hits a higher percentage...TT also has the same fg% as KVH...So how is it TT is not a decent perimeter player????
> 
> Not only that,But for their respective careers KVH Playing time is 18% more than TT..Yet he has hoisted up 36 percent more shots..The only thing KVH does better is rebound,and he makes up for it with turning the ball over


Yeowzah, nice stats!


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## alphadog

Yes, Oak, the 3 was a typo. And I know that people were posting stats daily but I expect more from you since your posts are most often well thought out. TT IS soft..no question. As far as VH being soft..I never said it and I don't believe it. Yes he is prone to turnovers as are many of the very good players that handle the ball alot and are not PGs. But as far as the dunk goes..I have not seen it, only read about it. But, you know, it is just a dunk and dunks only count the same as a jumper and it hardly means you are not soft, even if it is a vicious dunk. We can compare stats as a reference for good debate at the end of the season but there is no question VH comes out ahead. Still, it is really meaningless even if it does appear to support my point. And as for you, Truth, it has been covered over and over again here about comparing shooting percentages between different kinds of players. Are you really going to tell me that when you need a guy to hit a perimeter jumper youo think TT has as good a chance of making it as VH? Please.... And dunking...no matter how awesome...doesn't reflect anything other than getting up. I know that VH had a pre draft vertical of 38" and there is no indication of him losing any of it except that he has gotten smarter. You just have to show me that TT has that kind of hops...never happen. He is faster...period. I watched every game with VH and I saw some unbelievable body control, especially during the streak. The guy is a great athlete and one of the faster guys in the league at 6'10..just not in TT's class as a sprinter. The soft label came from one guy in NJ and that guy for as touogh as he thinks he is, isn't averaging much different than VH and he faed as well in the finals....go figure.


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## son of oakley

Well the whole point here was just to preach some patience. The crux isn't who's better between VH and TT, or if we took a hit to our chemistry shot term - we did. What matters is whether it was a wise trade long term.

I've waffled, and I still don't know. Right now I'm optimistic. But a lot will depend on Houston's health, on summer aquisitions, and on chemistry. My only real argument is against the answer being a foregone conclusion.


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## truth

Alfa,I happen to be a big KVH fan....I loved him at Utah,I loved him on the Nets and i liked him on the Knicks depending upon who his supporting cast was.As you know,with the knicks that cast changes daily...I think he is a better fir on some teams than others,as is every player,unless your name is Shaq,MJ...etc 



> And as for you, Truth, it has been covered over and over again here about comparing shooting percentages between different kinds of players. Are you really going to tell me that when you need a guy to hit a perimeter jumper youo think TT has as good a chance of making it as VH? Please


Alfa,I would have said the exact same things you did before i checked the stats...But you and I would have been DEAD WRONG!!!!!.......

Believe it or not TT has taken more career 3 point shots than KVH and shoots a higher %!!!!!He has taken way less shots inside the arc,but has the identical FG%...

You are welcome to your opinion,but the numbers do NOT back you up.....Its a non disputable fact..TT has been a better 3 point shooter than KVH..Dispute it if you want,just dont bet against it..You will be broke fast..your choice..

Answer me this,because your responce honestly baffles me...Why are you so insistent that KVH has a better chance of making a perimeter shot than TT,when every statistic indicates otherwise???

take a look

TT has made 2109 out of 4759 fg for a .443 shooting %
KVH has made 2883 out of 6509 fg for a ..443 shooting %

From 3 point land

TT has made 501 out of 1392 fg for a .360shooting %
KVH has made 474 out of 1329 fg for a .357 shooting %

Shocking,but TT is a better 3 point shooter than KVH......

Alfa,if you still insist on you view,I respect it,but I changed my opinion after seeing the numbers.....How can you logically sat KVH is a better shooter???


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## truth

One last thing Alfa..I was the person who said you cant compare shooters in different leagues,different countries and different levels of competition..

I found it amazing that peole would say Lampe or Vujanic were better shooters than marbury,when neither of them has hit an NBA 3 pointer..In fact they have played a total of 15 minutes between the 2...

If the sample size and conditions were similar i.e number of shots taken in the same league against the same comp,then it would be a very valid statistical analysis....That was my whole point

Yet now,when I make a DIRECT comparison,where the variables are almost identical as far as league,position played,competition etc you say its not a good comparison???

Alfa,as hard as it may be to believe,TT is a better perimeter shooter than KVH....I would think the sample size of 13,989 shots taken and the respected shootin % would back me up


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## Rashidi

> I found it amazing that peole would say Lampe or Vujanic were better shooters than marbury,when neither of them has hit an NBA 3 pointer..In fact they have played a total of 15 minutes between the 2...


It should be common sense, seeing as how Marbury is a 32% 3pt shooter. The majority of Euros who come over shoot better than that. If Lampe's strength is shooting, wouldn't it be logical to assume that he's better than 32% on 3's, especially if he were a lottery talent?

What did Kyle Korver shoot on 3's in college? 45%? What's he doing now? Competition may vary, but the regulated distance in Europe stays the same. Isn't a Euro 3pter longer? I know it's longer in Olympic play.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> 
> 
> I found it amazing that peole would say Lampe or Vujanic were better shooters than marbury,when neither of them has hit an NBA 3 pointer..In fact they have played a total of 15 minutes between the 2...



THEY DID. Why the hell do you harp on this stupid point? It sucks, so stop.

Lampe played in the summer league, nba players put nba hands in his face, the line was just as far as it is in the league.


Milos hit stuff from nearly the same range against drafted euros now playin g in the NBA.


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## truth

rashidi,you are missing the whole point,and i will try to explain it for the last time

Its very simple.....in any valid statistial backtest of random sampling between two entities,you have to make sure the variables are similar or highly correlated....

NBA competition is far stiffer than any other comp in the world...Therefore it is an external variable that will affect the outcome of an event.....

I am not saying a guy who shoots 50 % from the 3 point line in high school,or europe is not a far better pure shooter than marbury.He is...But until he can or show that he can get off and hit that same 3 point shot with gary payton in his jock with shaq leaping out at him you just can not validate that he can shoot better or worse that marbury in the NBA ....

Kyle Korver is doing precicely what one needs to validate your assumptions..hes shooting 41% from 3 point land ...In the NBA...

That is all i am saying.....When Lampe or Vujanic do what Korver is doing,I will agree with you 100%
..


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## son of oakley

I hear TT plays like T-mac in summer league, big deal.

The difference in intensity between the regular season and summer league is even greater than between the post season and the regular season. And we already know that some players wilt under the post season pressures.

If summer league were such an indicator of talent why isn't Lampe tearing it up with Phoenix right now?


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## truth

KnickBiggestFan,try reading a post in full before you spout off with your usual nonsense

Alfa wrote


> And as for you, Truth, it has been covered over and over again here about comparing shooting percentages between different kinds of players


His point was validating what i had attempted to convey a while back,yet he would not accept the fact that TT numbers are better than KVH's when it comes to shooting percentage even though they play in the same league,same position(currently) etc...

And you ignorantly,but as expected,chimed in .......


> THEY DID. Why the hell do you harp on this stupid point? It sucks, so stop


So KBF,the very same astute mind that states that Sean Bradley is the key to the MAVS success and presents ridiculous false stats,I suggest you calm down your nonsense and not tell me what to bring up or not..Of course you are also more than welcome to bring it on....

Just no crying to the mods:yes:


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## truth

Oak,its impossible to talk rationally with some of these guys as they flip flop all over the place,and KBF is basically a scud missle with his comments....

I have seen "some people" state flat out the summer league is absolutely meaningless and is no indication of how they will fare in the NBA.....

And wouldnt you know it,the summer league has now miraculously become the barometer for the potential performance in the NBA.....

Of course,most of these numnuts havent a clue as to what percent of Summer league players actually make it to the NBA...

Go figure


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## Rashidi

> If summer league were such an indicator of talent why isn't Lampe tearing it up with Phoenix right now?


We've been over this numnut. For the same reason Darko isn't tearing it up with Detroit right now.



> Oak,its impossible to talk rationally with some of these guys as they flip flop all over the place,and KBF is basically a scud missle with his comments....


It's your board, we just live in it, eh?


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## The True Essence

its not cause hes a project. Bosh was supposed to be a project, but look at him.

Qyntel Woods averaged like 28 points a game this year in the summerleague, look at him in the league. Loren Woods once averaged 20 a game in summer league, where the hell is he??? Lampe didnt even do as good as these guys. Whats makes you think hes ever going to be better? Guys like Dirk, Tracy, kobe, KG(young guys) etc. all played well in the limited minutes they recieved as rookies. Lampe has sucked in his minutes, and thats why he cant get more.


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## son of oakley

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> We've been over this numnut. For the same reason Darko isn't tearing it up with Detroit right now.


Seriously, I happen to have a horrible memory, or perhaps it was before I got here. Could you remind me of the salient points?

Detroit is fighting for playoff position, unlike Phoenix, so they need good production every nite. Phoenix can afford to take a few losses this year to develope their guys.

But if your point is that these kids are young and not yet ready, which I have nothing against, it flies in the face of your assertion that if they tear it up in college, or Europe, or summer league, that they will be just as good in the NBA!

That's what you guys are doing, you're pointing to what they do in other leagues and asserting it should be no different in the NBA - similar shooting percentages and all. I hate to go over the top with my language, but really, that's rediculous.

And I know you know it's rubbish. Heck, if I needed someone to post all the top 10 draft picks in the last 20 years (let alone late picks like Lampe and Vujanic) who bombed in the NBA, you're the guy I'd ask. Other than a few guys like perhaps Minute Bol, Dekembe? etc, who ever comes into the NBA without good stats or scouting reports from somewhere? And if there is any position where they are willing to draft just on physique rather than talent, it's big men.

Now I'm not saying these two Euros, Vujanic and Lampe, may not have skills. But lets not proclaim them significant NBA talents before they do a damn thing in this league. Sheesh... TT has talent and potential too, and look at the respect he's given around here.


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## alphadog

Truth...this is what I meant as far as not being able to judge on %. The situations in which KVH and TT took those shots was completely different. KVH quite often had to take shots as the clock was running down in NJ as he was the 2nd option other than Marbury and in Philly next to AI. That is the kind of situation that drives numbers down. Hell, even MJ was a sub par % shooter most of his career. Why? Because he always was the one to shoot with the clock winding down. Having watched both guys alot I know that KVH is my pick as a shooter and all around offensive guy...any numbers withstanding. I think many of the people here are trying desperately to justify this trade and back it up with stats...I don't think it can be down without somehow equalizing the conditions or at least acknowledging that maybe stats are or can be twisted. Anyway, I hope you all prove me wrong. One last thing...I am not a waffle kind of guy. I make my claim and stick to it until I have been proven wrong. It happens..or DID...once, I was not a fan of Marbury and I am happy to say that I may have been wrong. It was never his talent that I questioned, it was his attitude. The jury is ouot for a year or two but so far, so good.


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## truth

A dead give away...Rashidi,are you Canadien???

Obviously its not my board.....

i was having a pleasant discussion with Alfa and KBF felt the need to scold me......Not a problem.KBF is a fun guy to spar with....


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## truth

Alfa,I was SHOCKED when I saw that TT has a better 3 point shooting percentage than KVH..half the time when TT shoots,I just hope it draws iron

I agree with what you said.about game conditions..I think its alot easier to shoot 3's for a guy like Korver who doesnt have bruce Bowen all over him...Thats why Reggie( to me )is a better 3 point shooter than a del Curry,even though the stats may not indicate that....

And for the record,i never implied you are a waffle guy..You are anything but that...You come out swinging and dont back up..i like that


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## truth

> TT has talent and potential too, and look at the respect he's given around here.



LOL...How true...We trash TT and sing the praises of lampe,Vujanic and other guys who havent played 15 minutes in the NBA...


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> KnickBiggestFan,try reading a post in full before you spout off with your usual nonsense
> 
> Alfa wrote
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So KBF,the very same astute mind that states that Sean Bradley is the key to the MAVS success and presents ridiculous false stats,I suggest you calm down your nonsense and not tell me what to bring up or not..Of course you are also more than welcome to bring it on....
> 
> Just no crying to the mods:yes:



I swear to god you must be the most disillusioned person on this board. You're cryptically stupid sometimes.


I don't know what you mean by crying to the mods, I don't cry to them about anything save mod abuse.

Secondly you suck at math and at english. I neither implied the present tense ( in fact I specifically stated the past) and statistics favor my argument by putting their win percentage in the near 90th percentile. 


So I don't know why you're bringing up an argument you had to resort to piddly semantics to stay afloat in; but go you!


Once again, I am only commenting on what I quote, I really don't care what conversation you had with alpha as their is no synedoche between your " posts"


So once again: You wrote this





> I found it amazing that peole would say Lampe or Vujanic were better shooters than marbury,when neither of them has hit an NBA 3 pointer..In fact they have played a total of 15 minutes between the 2...


So you equivocate playing time and geographic orgination as a factor into whether or not they possess a skill set.

The fact remains you are just plain wrong. Stop trying to see any other way because it's frustrating I mean, dude, they are better shooters, they just are I mean, I know the NBA is the best but you just don't seem to realize how much of steph's game is going to the hole.


Try counting his midranged and attempts. Look at his form and consistency, these things will tell you if he's a shooter or not, not whether or not he starts in the NBA or really anything else.


People are talking about a skillset here and your defense is strange at best.



Stick to arguing with Rashidi. He's the only person here who can possibly make sense of your actions and intentional stance.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> its not cause hes a project. Bosh was supposed to be a project, but look at him.
> 
> Qyntel Woods averaged like 28 points a game this year in the summerleague, look at him in the league. Loren Woods once averaged 20 a game in summer league, where the hell is he??? Lampe didnt even do as good as these guys. Whats makes you think hes ever going to be better? Guys like Dirk, Tracy, kobe, KG(young guys) etc. all played well in the limited minutes they recieved as rookies. Lampe has sucked in his minutes, and thats why he cant get more.



Darko hasn't sucked in his minutes. Why doesn't he get more?


I think a lot of you fail to grasp that a project means different things to different teams who have different philosphies on how different players should be brought up.



Also someone here brought up the Tim Thomas potential crap again. Seriously what the hell is that. You have potential when you're open to learning not when you're 27 and have played 7 years in the league.


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## truth

KBF,the next meaningful stat you post will be your first....

As for testing math skills,I welcome you to try your luck..

Best of all,I Love guys like you who stick to their guns and puff out their chest as they make ridiculous statements that are nowhere near reality...

Ill go real slow for you...For as articulate as your are you are equally dense....

My point is not about Marburys shot vs Vujanic or Lampes...


Once again
Its very simple.....in any valid statistial backtest of random sampling between two entities,you have to make sure the variables are similar or highly correlated....

NBA competition is far stiffer than any other comp in the world...Therefore it is an external variable that will affect the outcome of an event.....

I am not saying a guy who shoots 50 % from the 3 point line in high school,or europe is not a far better pure shooter than marbury.He is...But until he can or show that he can get off and hit that same 3 point shot with gary payton in his jock with shaq leaping out at him you just can not validate that he can shoot better or worse that marbury in the NBA .....

Its really not a hard concept if you have ever played high school ball,then college......

I am guessing you never played college ball......

By any chance,have you ever boxed in the Golden Gloves???
Try starting in the novice division and then move up to the open.....

You will get the point...or get knocked out:uhoh:


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## Rashidi

Novice division? Didn't the US finish medaless in international play a couple years ago?


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## son of oakley

And weren't they coached by Tim Thomas' coach?


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## truth

> And weren't they coached by Tim Thomas' coach?


LMAO.....that is tooo ##$%%$ funny.....


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>truth</b>!
> As for testing math skills,I welcome you to try your luck..



You better be good.

First:

Integrate[Sin[Pi(x-t)], {t,0,x}]

Second


Prove the ANOVA decision rule with two sample tests

SSTR and SSE should be expressed in the X Y notation of t rations


Given:


SSTR n(1) ( Y(1)-Y..) (2) + n(2) (Y(2)- Y..)2
=

n( X-Y)(2) +m(Y-Y)(2)



Do those for me ( I have the answers already) and I'll never question you're mathematical ability again,


> Best of all,I Love guys like you who stick to their guns and puff out their chest as they make ridiculous statements that are nowhere near reality...


Heh sounds like your projecting. Pot Kettle Black son.



> Ill go real slow for you...For as articulate as your are you are equally dense....
> 
> My point is not about Marburys shot vs Vujanic or Lampes...
> 
> 
> Once again
> Its very simple.....in any valid statistial backtest of random sampling between two entities,you have to make sure the variables are similar or highly correlated....


They are you're just trying to make excuses for your piss poor definition. That's the whole issue of this debate and you skirt it like BUSH at a WMD conference. Answer the acqusations before you even attempt to debate other things



> NBA competition is far stiffer than any other comp in the world...Therefore it is an external variable that will affect the outcome of an event.....
> 
> I am not saying a guy who shoots 50 % from the 3 point line in high school,or europe is not a far better pure shooter than marbury.He is...But until he can or show that he can get off and hit that same 3 point shot with gary payton in his jock with shaq leaping out at him you just can not validate that he can shoot better or worse that marbury in the NBA .....



Silly. You do realize that being able to get off your shot does not make a you a good shooter. This is so boring, I feel like quoting my whole post to you over again. I just don't see how you don't get it.



> Its really not a hard concept if you have ever played high school ball,then college......
> 
> I am guessing you never played college ball......
> 
> By any chance,have you ever boxed in the Golden Gloves???
> Try starting in the novice division and then move up to the open.....
> 
> You will get the point...or get knocked out:uhoh:



Heh, you have no idea about my athletic history. Funny that you would even need to speculate it. Let me put in terms you can understand though.


A good shooter in D3 remains a good shooter in any advanced league, just like a good boxer retains his ability to punch, jab, move, and box despite the advanced level of competition.

I hope this clears things up for you if not launch yourself out the nearest window, there is no hope.


----------



## dcrono3

Hey lets just calm down everyone. I think it would be a good idea if we just stoped this arguement now. Personally I think it looks like Knicksbiggestfan is a bit too sensitive, but it seems that Truth is deliberately provoking him. Why don't the both of you just calm down now, ok? We had this argument a few weeks ago and nothing came out of it, so I doubt anything is going to change now. Just calm down.


----------



## truth

I kind of thought i was too sensitive and KBF was provoking me 

Ill settle this dispute right now since I see where KBF is ATTEMPTING to go with it.... 

Where we completely disagree is relative performance at different levels and how one measures skill at that level....



> A good shooter in D3 remains a good shooter in any advanced league, just like a good boxer retains his ability to punch, jab, move, and box despite the advanced level of competition


Take a great boxer at the amateur level.At the amateur level,he has great hand speed,good footwork,slips and counters really well,and goes undefeated at the amateur level...Everyone says he is a great boxer and possesses all the tools

Then he goes pro,and all of a sudden he is fighting against a whole nother animal..After the first 10 fights against tomatoe cans,he steps up to to fight contenders and just gets demolished.It happens over and over,and I know first hand....

He still has the same hand speed,same footwork,same jab..All the great tools are there..Yet he gets pummeled...WHY???Because he is now fighting at the contender level and its a whole nother level of competition.All of a sudden your great tools just arent enough....

KBF,with all due respect if you look at boxing talent as hand speed,footspeed,and power,as opposed to the ability to stop an opponent at the contender level we just look at the world differently....

You will probably say the fighter still is a great boxer and possesses great skills.. I will argue he is a great boxer at the amateur level,but not at the pro level and all his skills are useless,and ineffective at the highest level of competition....

But one will never find that out until one competes at the highest level...To me,the NBA is the highest level...I think you catch my drift.


----------



## Rashidi

> LMAO.....that is tooo ##$%%$ funny.....


I don't get it.



> I just don't see how you don't get it.


It should be obvious. For guys that don't play basketball, shooting ability perfectly translates to statistics. Duh. Just like guys with higher 3pt% than fg%. They are actually BETTER at shooting from 25 feet than they are from shooting from 10 feet. Right?



> Personally I think it looks like Knicksbiggestfan is a bit too sensitive


Maybe he doesn't care too much for a self-absorbed idiot calling him an idiot. Or maybe a bug crawled up his ***. Who really knows the answers to these questions, it's all astrological speculation when it comes to this message board.



> We had this argument a few weeks ago and nothing came out of it, so I doubt anything is going to change now. Just calm down.


Welcome to the story of this board. Some people believe they already have all the answers, and that anything spewed from another's mouth is rubbish. Unless there is agreement, of course. But that too is mere speculation, just like Lampe, Vujanic, Darko, and the creation of the Earth/Universe.


----------



## truth

*The overly sensitive Rashidi*



> Maybe he doesn't care too much for a self-absorbed idiot calling him an idiot.


Ahh,the ever sensitive Mr rashidi.....Perhaps one should question why you lead the league in getting into disputes with any and all posters...maybe its because you make comments like the one above.....

As for KBF,he is welcome to spew as much as he likes..He can bring it on full force,as he can dish it out as much as he can take it...

My sole question to you is why i only have "discussions" with you and KBF..


----------



## truth

Since I just cant resist provoking KBF:yes: 



> Silly. You do realize that being able to get off your shot does not make a you a good shooter


Very true KBF..Even i know that just because I can get off a shot doesnt make me a good shooter....

But lets answer the question that is pertinent to the argument...

Does not being able to get off a shot(or having it blocked) make you a bad shooter??????

That is really the point of contention........


----------



## alphadog

Man...I'm not sure where anybody is on this one, anymore. I will say this: if you can shoot the ball from 23'9" in HS at a 50% clip then you are a damn fine shooter....probably better than most in the NBA. The difference is simply that you must also have the size, speed and skills to find a way to get your shot off cleanly. And you must be conditioned well enough to be strong when you get it. Just shooting is one thing, being able to get your shot and THEN make it is another. And this ignores having the other skills neccessary to make it in the NBA such as some combination of size, quickness, smarts, and skills. If you can shoot in Europe, you can shoot here if you are given the same looks. The hoops are all 10'.


----------



## Rashidi

> maybe its because you make comments like the one above.....


It was a comment in response to your own. If you can't take what you dish out, don't ask for seconds.



> My sole question to you is why i only have "discussions" with you and KBF..


Easy, because you disagree with us, and your ignorant tendancies probably trigger something within our very souls. Oh, and we're like, the same person too.



> Does not being able to get off a shot(or having it blocked) make you a bad shooter??????
> 
> 
> 
> They were worried about this with Korver coming into the league. He's doing just fine. Most threes come off of screens or kickouts. You don't need to create a shot if someone is creating it for you.
> 
> Further, I highly doubt that the three is defended any worse in Europe than it is in the NBA. It's not like they play basketball differently in other parts of the world. Europe has fewer alley oops, that's about it.
Click to expand...


----------



## truth

i dont disagree with KBF,he just likes to bring it on,which i enjoy....

i usually disagree with you,because as good as your stats are,you are always WRONG


----------



## Knicksbiggestfan

My god you people think I am upset, well maybe I was little harsh but, don't read much into it. I am here because I love basketball and debate, that's it.


Hahaha you guys must not have been to the city much or somethin man. It's just talk FFS this is an internet message board on basektball.

I am not angry nor could I ever be, dude it's words about basketball I mean.... anyway. **** I've been living in Cali to long, I say dude now. I'll say this once, truth makes the board interesting.

I like debate it keeps the point fresh and you learn, not this verbal fellatio that gets thrown around on some of these boards, where we all agree and start holding each others dicks instead of making good observations and points.



> Does not being able to get off a shot(or having it blocked) make you a bad shooter??????



Again I disagree with your defintion a good shooter is someone who is proficent at that skill, not other skills in conjunction with it. If someone is accurate you get the open look, they knock down, they are good shooter.
It's the ability to make a shot that's in question, so realease time is a factor but a screen is a screen and ultimately accuracy will prevail. 


See Jason kapono, that guy uh I met him he's a dick and he sucks, but he is accurate.


QED.






> Easy, because you disagree with us, and your ignorant tendancies probably trigger something within our very souls. Oh, and we're like, the same person too.



I don't know about the sole but yeah when people post things I find totally erroneous it's hard not to respond.


We are the same person,which is way in the Layden era we used to argue. You know that way no matter what happened we always won. :laugh:


----------



## truth

> I'll say this once, truth makes the board interesting.


Very Valid statement:yes: 

no rebuttal necessary

now if we can just find another topic to beat to death,i can kick your intellectual butt once more and send rashidi crying to the mods.......


----------



## truth

> btw, truth, I'm coming around on sweetney. He's got a certain grace under that awkward frame


i agree......his body almost looks like an athletes and he has an uncanny knack of grabbing the ball....he also has a nice touch...

It looks like i was completely wrong of Layden drafting him.....


----------



## truth

was checking out the Toronto raptor thread after the game and came across this



> If only Vince can consistently dominate almost every possession like Stephon.


that is some mighty high praise


----------



## Perennial All Star

I never doubted Sweetney, even if it was Layden's only good move and draft pick. I just thought he never got the time under the masterful Don Chaney, who now sharing a 1 bedroom apartment with Scott Layden in Utah I hear. Anyway, now that he gets the time he plays good. I could never imagine him starting at one point this season but Lenny Wilkens is unpredicatable. Anyway Nazr has played excellent these past few games and Tim Thomas is solid. I lways liked the trade, with or without our losing streak. Though the "genius" Rashidi, with his elusive stats that sometimes compare FG% by .1%, always has something to say about the current Knicks group. Well I suppose he didn't like the Marbury trade because he missed his boy Howard Eisley, who he continues to discuss to this day. Tough luck. Get over it. He's gone and so our most of Layden's disgraceful players. Let's move on. *We are all Knick fans and all should support our team and stick together.* Instead I see constant criticism from the same person. If you are gonna criticize the time at every point and time then you might as well quit being a basketball fan. Simple as that. I'm done, later....


----------



## truth

LOL.....i smell trouble brewing


----------



## dcrono3

Haha, ok, I have no problem with people discussing about b-ball with a great deal of passion, but maybe next time when we see something we don't agree, we should try to sound more civil. Try not to have your first post call others idiots/morons/ppl who don't understand b-ball... The best way to get others to get ur own point is to patiently point it out to others (even though I know it doesn't always work, its worth a try, right?) If you insult the other guy straight off the bat, chances are that the other guy won't see your point at all, just because they were insulted. This is from personal experience, so I say we could try and keep the insulting toned down a bit.

And then, there are the ppl who won't change their opinion at all. When they are proven wrong, they either don't comment or try to act like they never supported the "wrong" side. They don't admit they were ever wrong. Well, these ppl are a bit hard to get along, but we should still try and be civil with them. I get very emotional many times, but I still try to keep myself civil, haha. Anyway, this is just how i think the board can improve. I see the board as a place where fans can get together and discuss their ideas and try to get others to see their points, not a place where ppl just yell at each other, shrieking insults. 

And, Nazr has been just amazing these past days.  the Van Horn trade doesn't seem so bad now, considering Nazr is definately playing better compared to Dolec.


----------



## The True Essence

speaking of tim thomas, hes been very consistent since we got him. And Nazr was a monster on the boards yesterday, in a game where both teams rarely missed


----------



## truth

It appears that there are some people out there who just dont like Isiah and will jump on him the moment things head south..I personally havent come to any judgements regarding him but I do think he has made some excellent moves.....

isiah has said over and over again he would have never traded KVH if it wasnt for NAZ....I dont think naz is a 20 point,18 rebound guy,but there is no doubt Doleac would ever put up those numbers,and i for one am sick of seeing KT at center....

I think everyone overreacts in both directions.....But thats the fun part..If you ask me,this team is only as good as marbury,especially when houston is out....When we had the losing streak,marbury played like shiit,and it wouldnt have mattered if we had TT or KVH....Personally,I dont think there isw that big a difference in their games,but a big difference in their heads..I think KVH busts his butt all the time,and TT needs to be verrrrrry motivated to do the same

If Naz plays well,this trade was a steal....


----------



## alphadog

Truth...I had no opinion on the Nazr part of the trade but he is young and active and will board. We need this more than Doleac's outside touch. Doleac would be a nice addition to the bench as a situational player but nothing more. The problem I have is that according to almost everyone who is in a position to know, he could have gotten Nazr without doing the TT/VH trade(regardless of what IT says...he is a known liar), which is the part I don't like. If at the end of the year TT is averaging 17+ pt and 6+ boards while shooting 45%...and......the Knicks are winning then I will be on board in all ways with this trade.


----------



## truth

Alfa,what does naz make???about 4.5 million per year???Thats my guess....Atlanta would have only taken an expiring contract for him..We had nothing to offer them....

I looked at the rosters and i dont see any combination that would have made it feasible..I am pretty sure that Trybanski couldnt have been packaged...

Ask these "in the know its" how this trade could have been possibly done unless you traded KT for Naz straight up...I just dont see what they are talking about...

Dont you think if the trade could have been done without KVH being moved,Rashidi would have been all over IT like white on rice???

To be honest,if the knicks are winning I dont care if TT averages 3 points per game..Winning is the only thing that matters


----------



## Rashidi

> Though the "genius" Rashidi, with his elusive stats that sometimes compare FG% by .1%, always has something to say about the current Knicks group.


I thought you weren't talking to me anymore? Why are you talking about me then? Coward.



> Well I suppose he didn't like the Marbury trade because he missed his boy Howard Eisley, who he continues to discuss to this day.


Feel free to quote me. It is EVERYONE ELSE who brings him up.

And yes, Howard Eisley is still > Frank Williams. That was all I ever said about him, and people say I love him. Come back to me when Frank Williams can actually score 10 points in a game without turning over the ball 3 times per 10 minutes.



> We are all Knick fans and all should support our team and stick together.


 '

Except when Scott Layden is GM. Then we should bash his supporters with personal insults.



> If you are gonna criticize the time at every point and time then you might as well quit being a basketball fan.


If you can't handle what you dish out, don't ask for seconds. People who can't handle criticism don't belong in sports, period. I don't even recall addressing you in the last month, punk. I notice you weren't here when the team was on the losing streak. You're one to talk about supporting the team, bandwagoner.

What is there to really be excited about? Even if you're the 6th best team in the east, it still means you are worse than half of the teams in the league. How exactly will this team compete for the conference finals, much less a championship?


----------



## truth

rashidi,i honestly honestly am confused by you..you are hot for the knicks under layden when we were playing.375 ball,and out of the playoff pic and now that we are in 6th you pan the team and say there is nothing to get excited about??




> What is there to really be excited about? Even if you're the 6th best team in the east, it still means you are worse than half of the teams in the league. How exactly will this team compete for the conference finals, much less a championship?


you are soooooooooooooo emotional ...

whats up man??


----------



## The True Essence

at the same time rashidi was excited about fighting for the 8th spot a few months ago, and now that were past that he doesnt like it. He just argues for the sake of arguing. Maybe he wants to be a lawyer


----------



## truth

Penny,I just dont get it at all...We are in the thick of it and there really isnt any dominant teams in the east.....Im excited,we have 6 teams fighting for 3 spots and hopefully h20 will be healthy and the new guys can gel

maybe he is a lawyer..


----------



## Perennial All Star

First off "oh great stats genius" Rashidi, bashing Layden wasn't just the right thing to do, it was the only thing to do. He destroyed any chance of a future and couldn't acquire a star player. To defend such a man takes a person with no knowledge of the game. That my friend is you. I'd take Frank Williams over Howard Eisley, who despite being one of the worst PG's in the game, also thinks he's a good player. He chucks up shots and hogs the ball AT TIMES. Same could be said about Williams, but not as much. Furthermore, I never addressed you my good friend, rather I referred to you. Never talked directly to you. And once again, please tell me why, in a very informative manner, you'd like to take Scott Layden's "legendary" Knicks team over the current Knicks. Because I'm really interested to see why you have such a huge fascination of the impressive work of the masterful Scott Layden. And for a person who thinks he's so mature, calling me a punk and a coward for pointing out the obvious isn't so mature now is it? So go ahead enlighten me on your thinking...

PS: Me leaving this board? Other than me having a life, my Windows 2000 was wiped out by a virus, and I needed to buy Windows XP to return to the internet, as noted in my return post. Go take your worthless insults to another user.


----------



## Rashidi

> at the same time rashidi was excited about fighting for the 8th spot a few months ago, and now that were past that he doesnt like it. He just argues for the sake of arguing. Maybe he wants to be a lawyer


That was before we traded the draft picks and cap room. Like I said, I'll take the 8th seed and the 14th pick than the 6th seed and NO PICK. I don't see the latter as growth.

If you're going to "win now" you better do a lot better than the 6th seed. Heck, the Hornets have been the 4th seed for like the past how many years, how much glory have they had?


----------



## Perennial All Star

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> That was before we traded the draft picks and cap room. Like I said, I'll take the 8th seed and the 14th pick than the 6th seed and NO PICK. I don't see the latter as growth.
> 
> If you're going to "win now" you better do a lot better than the 6th seed. Heck, the Hornets have been the 4th seed for like the past how many years, how much glory have they had?


Have you heard of playoffs? Seeding doesn't make or break someone. If you play good in the playoffs you may be able to knock off a greater team or slightly greater team. I'm not saying we are going all the way, but to think that New York would sit here and develop young players is absurd. The fans wouldn't stand for it and then the GM wouldn't stand for it and we'd be going back to the drawing board. And if you think that being younger automatically makes you a great team with a future, look at the Bulls, who've been rebuilding since 1999.


----------



## Rashidi

> Have you heard of playoffs? Seeding doesn't make or break someone. If you play good in the playoffs you may be able to knock off a greater team or slightly greater team.


Pacers: 1st
Nets: 2nd
Pistons: 3rd

Pick a seed, any seed. Knicks aren't getting past any of these teams. Knicks aren't going to luck out and have Tim Hardaway play a series on a bum knee, and Larry Johnson isn't here to pick a fight with Mourning.


----------



## truth

> That was before we traded the draft picks and cap room. Like I said, I'll take the 8th seed and the 14th pick than the 6th seed and NO PICK. I don't see the latter as growth


8th seed???????????????????

Are you on drugs???dont answer,its obvious....

How in the world were we going to get the 8th seed without the marbury trade?????

If you like growth,then why were you always so vehemently opposed to nuking the Knicks and starting over,and maybe getting a top 3 pick????

For the love of god,get the proper dosage of whatever it is you are on....


----------



## Rashidi

> How in the world were we going to get the 8th seed without the marbury trade?????


The Knicks record is hardly any different than it was pre-Marbury. They started playing easy teams like the Wizards and Hawks instead of all the western teams. I've pointed this out various times throughout the season.

Though you are right about one thing. Houston's injury would have likely taken the Knicks out of playoff contention.

Then again, they kinda lost most of the games he missed anyway. But it's doubtful he would have rushed himself back, which would have put themselves in position for a lottery pick. I don't get it, the Knicks beat 3 east teams worse than they are, and suddenly the team is "back on track".




> If you like growth,then why were you always so vehemently opposed to nuking the Knicks and starting over,and maybe getting a top 3 pick????


Because look at all the unrealistic propositions there were to "nuke the Knicks". What were people proposing? Waive everybdoy? It was thought that the best way to "nuke" the Knicks was waiting out the bad contracts and getting under the cap instead of trading back into *MEDIOCRITY* like the previous regime did.


----------



## Perennial All Star

So what do you suggest we ahoud have done wizard? Keep Eisley, McDyess, W'Spoon, Van Horn and others and wait till 2007 and try to "rebuild" like the great Chicago Bulls have been doing for 5 years now?


----------



## truth

> The Knicks record is hardly any different than it was pre-Marbury


WTF are you talking about?????????????????????????????

Rashidi,you have got to stop ..............................
Enough is enough...............................................

Once again,here we go

The Knicks PRE marbury

14 wins and 21 losses which is a .400 w/l %

the knicks with marbury

15 wins and 14 losses which is a .5172 w/l record

Are you trying to say that a .5172 record is not much better than .400??????

Rashidi,what is your problem????????

I understand you were a big layden supporter,cheney and eisly fan,but that doesnt mean you have to make up stuff to make Isiah look bad......

can you just accept the changes and stop blasting everything from isiah to TT to NAZ to marbury...its getting real real old..The tema is doing much much better...of course you will find tons of reasons why they arent


----------



## Rashidi

> So what do you suggest we ahoud have done wizard? Keep Eisley, McDyess, W'Spoon, Van Horn and others and wait till 2007 and try to "rebuild" like the great Chicago Bulls have been doing for 5 years now?


The Bulls and Knicks are very different.

More specifically, Chicago and New York.

Big name free agents don't want to go to Chicago, because 

1. They saw how Jordan was treated when they broke up the Bulls

2. They don't want the monkey (Jordan) on their back. It's a tough act to follow.

NY on the other hand is the media capital of the world. It's like LA, minus the championships.

But then again, had the Bulls not traded Elton Brand, they'd be a better team than the Knicks today.

*I prefer the Suns rebuilding plan a lot more than the Bulls anyway*

The Bulls plan was flawed from the start in the sense that they literally started from SCRATCH. *They got NOTHING of value for Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman.* They sign and traded Pippen for Roy Rogers. They got Brand with the 1st pick, and made the mistake of trading him for Tyson Chandler. They got impatient and traded Artest and Miller for Jalen Rose. Oh, and some #2 pick crippled himself riding a motorcycle.

C Brad Miller/Eddy Curry
PF Elton Brand
SF Ron Artest
SG Jamal Crawford
PG Jay Williams

Sorry, but that's a playoff team in the east, a better squad than the Knicks have. If it weren't for bad trades and bad luck, the rebuild works, and the Bulls are on top of the east.

That's how rebuilding goes. If you do it right, you're back. If you do it bad, you're out for another 3 years.

The Mavs traded Robert Traylor for Pat Garrity and Dirk Nowitzki. Then they traded Garrity for Steve Nash. Some teams get luckier than others. I for one would prefer the Knicks take that chance so they can put together a contention worthy 60 win team, instead of wasting time with a 45-50 win Stephon Marbury team. The only 6th seed to ever win a championship was Houston in 94-95, and that's only because they had Hakeem Olajuwon (a top 5 all-time center) and made a mid-season trade for Clyde Drexler. A 7th and 8th seed has never won.

How many years has the NBA been around now? 55? And only 1 6th seed won it all?

Great. So you would prefer a 1 in 55 chance of winning a championship, instead of temporarily sucking in an effort to drastically increase the odds? Why do you think NY hasn't won a championship in the last 30 years?

The Knicks were seeded 1st and 2nd when they won their two championships. Not 6th.


----------



## truth

> Why do you think NY hasn't won a championship in the last 30 years?


simple.....John Starks not being pulled by Riley


----------



## truth

> The only 6th seed to ever win a championship was Houston in 94-95, and that's only because they had Hakeem Olajuwon (a top 5 all-time center) and made a mid-season trade for Clyde Drexler.


and MJ wasnt playing full time


----------



## Rashidi

> simple.....John Starks not being pulled by Riley


What was the record and seed of that team again?


----------



## Rashidi

I'll answer that one for you.

The Knicks were 57-25, the 2nd seed.

Thier Expected Record was 63-19.

About the Pythagorean Method for Calcualting Win Pct. 

The Pythagorean Method gives an expected winning percentage using the fact that the ratio of a team's wins and losses is related to the number of points scored by the team raised to some exponent, which is usually taken to be 16.5. 

Expected Winning % = (Pts scored)^(16.5)/(Pts scored^(16.5) + Pts allowed^(16.5)) 

Meaning, those Knicks actually UNDERACHIEVED. The Hawks were 57-25 that year and the 1st seed (obviously had tie breaker). Their expected record was just that - 57-25. So clearly the Knicks were the best team in the east.

They had THREE ALL-STARS. Ewing, Oakley, and Starks. Further, they gave up NOTHING (Tony Campbell) in exchange for Derek Harper, the best player in NBA history to NEVER make the all-star team (it's a disgrace that BJ Armstrong has made it, but not Harper). They also had Anthony Mason coming off the bench, he ended up winning the 6th man of the year award the following year.

This was a GREAT team. How did they get this team?

1. They sucked for a long time and got Ewing with the 1st pick.
2. They traded an aging vet for a young Oakley.
3. They traded nothing for a good PG.
4. Productive drafts gave the Knicks Greg Anthony and Hubert Davis for bench depth.
*5. Most importantly, the Knicks developed John Starks and Anthony Mason into quality players.*.

You'd better pray that DerMarr Johnson and Mike Sweetney become the next Starks/Mason duo, because otherwise, this team has no draftpicks or valuable trading assets, which means no chance to add talent to the core.

The Knicks were good because they were the best defensive team in the league. These Knicks are VERY far from it.


----------



## truth

done checking your research..its completely fabricated....


----------



## Rashidi

Which part is fabricated? Or rather, which part are you having trouble comprehending?


----------



## truth

after your last post that the knicks record is almost identical pre marbury as opposed to post marbury i realise that there is no bounds to how low you will stoop to discredit IT,wilkens,matbury TT or anyone post layden and eisly......

you are a freak,i am done discussing numbers because you make em up....from here on in ill just post TRUE /False/BOLD FACE LIE


----------



## Rashidi

Laughing
My
***
Off

I didn't expect much of a response. What a pity.


----------



## truth

Layden...Eisly...Chaney.....a .375 record....84 million payroll...that was a pity..............


----------



## Rashidi

Marbury, .545 record, 90+ million payroll, no draft picks or hope of beating the top 3 teams in the east, much less the top 8 teams in the west. Not much better.


----------



## truth

who are you????????????

Frank layden????


----------



## Tapseer

Hey, someone here help me out. all we have to look forward to this year is second rd draft choices. So, someone tell me...do the Knicks have just one pick in the second rd or two? One of our resident statisticians should be able to answer this...please:angel:


----------



## truth

rashidi,i will no longer debate you on topics where you base your views on your intense feelings regarding isiah,wilkens and any trades made post layden....You are 100% subjective and really do post things that are simply not true.....You should really not skew your statements and say things like the knick won lost record is the same pre and post marbury......I think you know better than that and it just leads to silly debates which no one on the board wants to hear.....

With that said i would be happy to talk basketball with you.....You mention that we should pray that Demarr and sweets turn out to be players....

My question to you is,assuming Demarr is fully recovered,dont you think as a former 6th pick and highly touted,he has as much upside as a Lampe???


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## Rashidi

> rashidi,i will no longer debate you on topics where you base your views on your intense feelings regarding isiah,wilkens and any trades made post layden....


Incorrect, I've already stated my very different views. 6th seeds don't win championships, 1st and 2nd seeds do.



> You are 100% subjective and really do post things that are simply not true.....You should really not skew your statements and say things like the knick won lost record is the same pre and post marbury......


Care to name anything other than one exaggeration? It's doubtful that you are capable of doing so. Note that the Knicks have played mostly cupcake teams since they picked up Marbury. They played most of the hard teams pre-Marbury. Throw a couple Laker matchups in there, and the Marbury Kniicks aren't .500.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>Tapseer</b>!
> Hey, someone here help me out. all we have to look forward to this year is second rd draft choices. So, someone tell me...do the Knicks have just one pick in the second rd or two? One of our resident statisticians should be able to answer this...please:angel:


Didn't we give up a second round pick? I think we have 1 left.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

And if we do, I hope we get Romain Sato. Though I don't see him slipping that low.


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## Rashidi

Right now the Knicks have the 47th pick.

NBAdraf.net projects Sato at 43rd.

Keith Triplett is 47th (another SG).

I don't really see the need for another SG, we have 3 vets getting paid for the next 3 years, and DerMarr Johnson if he chooses to re-sign and be the 12th man, rather than get an opportunity elsewhere.


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## Tapseer

The reason I asked about the second rd picks is because I thought we got one from Houston, in the Weatherspoon/Moochie deal meaning that we would have 2 choices rather than one. I also thought that we did give up a second rd pick for (Nazr?) in the Atlanta trade, but it was for 2005. If there is a guy on the board in the second rd IT really wanted to get, I don't think IT is going to hope the guy falls to him...he's going to go get him. I don't see the Knicks selecting a PG in any draft in any rd anytime soon. I think they will be looking to get as much size as they could.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Right now the Knicks have the 47th pick.
> 
> NBAdraf.net projects Sato at 43rd.
> 
> Keith Triplett is 47th (another SG).
> 
> I don't really see the need for another SG, we have 3 vets getting paid for the next 3 years, and DerMarr Johnson if he chooses to re-sign and be the 12th man, rather than get an opportunity elsewhere.



Okay so 47th for sure?


No idea who the hell Ken Triplett is. Nor do I understand why Romain is so far back in the rankings.


I've seen this kid play, he is talented and versatile and seems to give an effort. He is raw in some aspects and not as fluid as you would like in the game of basketball, but you can tell he'll be a solid contributor.



This year I think we'll need a 2. I think we will get to the 2nd and houston will need alot of time off.


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## Perennial All Star

I guess because we are 6th seed we will never win the title. Oh well, lets get back Eisley and Weatherspoon and wait till 2007 and try to do it again.


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## Rashidi

Well, 47th based on the W/L record.


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## dcrono3

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> Okay so 47th for sure?
> 
> No idea who the hell Ken Triplett is. Nor do I understand why Romain is so far back in the rankings.
> 
> I've seen this kid play, he is talented and versatile and seems to give an effort. He is raw in some aspects and not as fluid as you would like in the game of basketball, but you can tell he'll be a solid contributor.
> 
> This year I think we'll need a 2. I think we will get to the 2nd and houston will need alot of time off.


We have the 47th pick for now, but I'm pretty sure that will change soon. I think it's pretty early to be talking about the draft and which pick we will get right now. Wait until the season is over and the Dance is done? 

From what I heard Sato has dropped because of a subpar senior year. I gather that he hasn't improved at all since his junior year, and even regressed a bit in his biggest strength, defense. He hasn't picked up the slack since David West left, so he is dropping.


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## Knicksbiggestfan

> Originally posted by <b>dcrono3</b>!
> 
> 
> We have the 47th pick for now, but I'm pretty sure that will change soon. I think it's pretty early to be talking about the draft and which pick we will get right now. Wait until the season is over and the Dance is done?
> 
> From what I heard Sato has dropped because of a subpar senior year. I gather that he hasn't improved at all since his junior year, and even regressed a bit in his biggest strength, defense. He hasn't picked up the slack since David West left, so he is dropping.



It's never to early to plan for the future.



I didn't know Sato was doing so poorly, I saw him play a few times last year. Reminded me of James Posey ( worse handle) was real high on him. I'll have to check him out.


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## dcrono3

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> It's never to early to plan for the future.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't know Sato was doing so poorly, I saw him play a few times last year. Reminded me of James Posey ( worse handle) was real high on him. I'll have to check him out.


I agree that its never too early to plan your future, but I thought it was a bit early to actually try and guess the exact pick the Knicks would get ing the draft. The standings could change a lot with around 20 games to go in the season. 

Sato was a guy who I was really high on at the begining of teh year. A super-athlete with long arms, a supposed NBA 3pt shot, and amazing defense. He looked like a future star IMO. However, he has really struggled this year (at least compared to last year) and his stats have all dropped. Maybe it was because David West left, but Sato just hasn't been doing well. That kind of knocked him out of the first round.


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## Rashidi

Actually, NBAdraft.net needs to be updated.

Knicks have the 45th pick right now. That's Brandon Mouten, another SG. Most of the 2nd rounders in fact, are SGs.

That's because most of the 1st round is PGs, SFs, and Cs.

I don't really see the Knicks pulling a player out of the 2nd round, and I get the impression IT isn't intereted in developing guys in Europe for a couple years.


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