# Is Amare better than David Lee?



## jayk009

I'm starting to think he's not much of an upgrade over Lee.


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## e-monk

he's a far superior scorer but that's about it


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## Hyperion

LOL, he was a beast, but a few years of fighting injuries and not defending ever have taken its toll on him. He talks big but delivers mediocre. He has little hustle other than when he has the ball. At least Lee rebounds.


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## Dre

Talk to me when Lee puts up the stretch that Amare did from the trade deadline through the end of the season. You guys...that was a couple months ago, not years.


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## ATLien

lol at this. Knicks fans might be even bigger losers than the team.


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## e-monk

um - yeah like I said he's a far superior scorer - Lee is a much better rebounder - they're about the same defensively which is mediocre although Amar'e stands a chance at getting the occasional block


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## hamworld05

Are Amere and David Lee not go-to players in their own right?


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## ajax25

neither of them are really go to players, at least in clutch situations


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## HKF

Will David Lee lead the Warriors to the playoffs? If not, then Amare is still better than him by default.


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## 27dresses

We will have a better idea who's better after this season.


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## hamworld05

ajax25 said:


> neither of them are really go to players, at least in clutch situations


Right. I forgot Lee's on the Warriors.


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## e-monk

ajax25 said:


> neither of them are really go to players, at least in clutch situations


by 'lead' do you mean follow Steve Nash? David Lee hasnt had the opportunity so it's kind of hard to say for sure


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## Wilmatic2

Amare's numbers will drop a bit, since Nash ain't setting the table for him no more.


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## Hyperion

HKF said:


> Will David Lee lead the Warriors to the playoffs? If not, then Amare is still better than him by default.


Suns replaced Amare with Diaw and made it to the WCF. Just putting it out there.


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## Tragedy

ATLien said:


> lol at this. Knicks fans might be even bigger losers than the team.


The Knicks even when they suck >>> Atlanta when they're good.

No one cares about the Hawks. EVER.

You mad doggie?

Back to the topic - I'd rather have Amare for 17 than Lee for 10. 

Lee put up pretty numbers last year, but NY had become more about coming to NY and hanging out than gameplanning for the Knicks.

There wasn't one player on that roster that opposing teams came to the court with a plan to stop. David Lee grabs more boards, but is even worse defensively than Amare - and one thing we know about Amare is that he delivers in the playoffs.

But we'll see how well Amare does this season.


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## ajax25

e-monk said:


> by 'lead' do you mean follow Steve Nash? David Lee hasnt had the opportunity so it's kind of hard to say for sure


huh? I didn't say anything about leading



HKF said:


> Will David Lee lead the Warriors to the playoffs? If not, then Amare is still better than him by default.



I think you mean't to quote this one instead


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## ATLien

Tragedy said:


> The Knicks even when they suck >>> Atlanta when they're good.
> 
> No one cares about the Hawks. EVER.
> 
> You mad doggie?


When I start making threads as dumb as this, then plz troll all you want


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## Da Grinch

offensively there is a world of difference in dominance , no one ever doubles lee ...ever, so he is basically out there stat padding, getting his, no team gameplans for him and if he gets 25 and 15 in a game it doesn't mean anything,amare on the other hand most teams have to double him...or he kills them.

rebounding is overrated especially the way lee goes about it, the knicks were actually a better rebounding team when he is on the bench
http://www.82games.com/0910/09NYK17.HTM#onoff ...he never boxes out anymore, he is just out there stat padding...even so he is a better rebounder than amare.

defensively well this...
http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=Tqtlpy23Jxw&feature=related
as mediocre as Amare is defensively Lee may well be the league's worst defender

the knicks ripped the warriors off in getting randolph, turiaf and azibuike.


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## e-monk

ajax25 said:


> huh? I didn't say anything about leading
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think you mean't to quote this one instead


quite right, my most abject apologies


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## Diable

Find me some tape of an opposing coach talking about how important it is to contain David Lee. Hell find me some tape of someone working for the Knicks talking about how they needed to pay David Lee. Truth is the knicks have been a joke the entire time Lee has been there. Noone has ever thought much about how to beat them, they just rolled the ball out and beat them. 


Now I would personally like to congratulate David Lee on a very clever business model that was successfully executed...He should thank god that Nelly wasn't fired sooner. Hell more guys should be out there busting their asses for pretty numbers on ****ty teams. Someone will actually believe in them.


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## Tragedy

Oh yeah. I remember a game against the Warriors where he dropped something like 40 and 20

Knicks LOST.


Danilo Gallinari is, and will stay a better player than David Lee. I've seen games where Gallinari has torched teams.

None of Lee's points make a difference. Just look at the W/L column.

As for Amare, we'll see if Nash made him who he is. My guess is Nash made it much easier, but Amare will be a legit player for the Knicks.

Also, Amare can attract free agents - big name players. Lee is a nobody.


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## Tragedy

Da Grinch said:


> offensively there is a world of difference in dominance , no one ever doubles lee ...ever, so he is basically out there stat padding, getting his, no team gameplans for him and if he gets 25 and 15 in a game it doesn't mean anything,amare on the other hand most teams have to double him...or he kills them.
> 
> rebounding is overrated especially the way lee goes about it, the knicks were actually a better rebounding team when he is on the bench
> http://www.82games.com/0910/09NYK17.HTM#onoff ...he never boxes out anymore, he is just out there stat padding...even so he is a better rebounder than amare.
> 
> defensively well this...
> http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=Tqtlpy23Jxw&feature=related
> as mediocre as Amare is defensively Lee may well be the league's worst defender
> 
> the knicks ripped the warriors off in getting randolph, turiaf and azibuike.


Yeah, considering the Knicks weren't gonna do anything major after signing Amare that was an amazing steal.

At worst you let Azibuke and Turiaf expire, and the Knicks had to sign players anyway. Might as well get quality guys. Knicks won that trade big time. Because an Amare/Lee combo would be terrible.


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## Tom

Amare is better but he could have some Antonio McDyess in him too.


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## Tragedy

Tom said:


> Amare is better but he could have some Antonio McDyess in him too.


As a Knicks fan let's hope not.

But the irony wouldn't be lost on me.

The Knicks missed an opportunity to get the next McDyess (Amare - when you consider his talents) by trading the pick to Denver for hobbled McDyess, who re-injured himself promptly.

Now if Amare got injured, the Knicks would be cursed.


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## Tom

He will get hurt but they will get Melo and languish in 5-6 spot dome for a while. Which is better than they have been.


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## e-monk

the idea of Amar'e + Melo is like weird science experiment


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## Tragedy

e-monk said:


> the idea of Amar'e + Melo is like weird science experiment


Amare and Melo with Felton to bridge it is 4th seed AT LEAST. In my opinion.


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## Hyperion

Tragedy said:


> As a Knicks fan let's hope not.
> 
> But the irony wouldn't be lost on me.
> 
> The Knicks missed an opportunity to get the next McDyess (Amare - when you consider his talents) by trading the pick to Denver for hobbled McDyess, who re-injured himself promptly.
> 
> Now if Amare got injured, the Knicks would be cursed.


That's what they get for trading Ewing.


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## yodurk

Wilmatic2 said:


> Amare's numbers will drop a bit, since Nash ain't setting the table for him no more.


IMO, Amare will still have big numbers, but his efficiency will drop drastically w/out Nash setting up easy buckets.

e.g., he could easily score 25 ppg, but it might only be 48% FG shooting. I doubt Ray Felton will be lobbing him multiple easy dunks every game.


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## yodurk

Da Grinch said:


> defensively well this...
> http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=Tqtlpy23Jxw&feature=related
> as mediocre as Amare is defensively Lee may well be the league's worst defender


I agree with your post and yes, Lee is a bad defender (there are multiple complex stats out there supporting the notion).

But, in defense of David Lee in that video, he was defending Dwight Howard. You can tell he was staying at home on Howard in fear of Howard getting the easy dunk/putback. That's a trade off all teams need to make decisions on. 

That said, clearly there are a dozen or more teams who could've executed this defensive scheme better than Lee and last year's Knicks.


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## VCHighFly

Amare is better in every phase of the game other than rebounding.


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## zagsfan20

HKF said:


> Will David Lee lead the Warriors to the playoffs? If not, then Amare is still better than him by default.


Lee's never had the talent around him that Amare's had. Plug Lee in Phoenix and he'd benefit from Nash just like Amare did.


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## Da Grinch

yodurk said:


> I agree with your post and yes, Lee is a bad defender (there are multiple complex stats out there supporting the notion).
> 
> But, in defense of David Lee in that video, he was defending Dwight Howard. You can tell he was staying at home on Howard in fear of Howard getting the easy dunk/putback. That's a trade off all teams need to make decisions on.
> 
> That said, clearly there are a dozen or more teams who could've executed this defensive scheme better than Lee and last year's Knicks.


seeing as howard had 28 points anyway , staying home on him didn't really slow him down any.(in fact seeing as opposing players had a PER of 22 against him and he doesn't rotate he is really comically bad at defense, he makes eddy curry look like mutumbo)

but as a big man you are supposed to rotate over, point blank , its not the playground, teams have defensive schemes and not defending the basket you are standing next to is not how any coach would draw it up...it was just a case of Lee not putting himself in harms way, keeping himself out of foul trouble so he can pile up stats.


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## MemphisX

zagsfan20 said:


> Lee's never had the talent around him that Amare's had. Plug Lee in Phoenix and he'd benefit from Nash just like Amare did.



Amare was Amare before Nash


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## Luke

Give me Amare all day everyday. Lee is a beyond putrid defender whereas Amare is simply below average and Amare is worlds ahead of him offensively.


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## GrandKenyon6

This is a truly ridiculous comparison. Amare is *INFINITELY* better than David Lee.


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## ScottVdub

MemphisX said:


> Amare was Amare before Nash


Amare only played one season without Nash. He did win rookie of the year that season though, but he exploded under Nash.


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## HB

Lol Amare played great with Starbury. He's going to have one heck of a season though, he looks real motivated out there. Lee's not as good as Amare, not close, but he's a much better rebounder.


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## O & B

Davide Lee wanted around 12-13 mil a year.

Amare can dominate a game offensively, one of the best offensive PF's in this league but then you have David Lee, one of the best rebounders in the league.

I still pick Amare over Lee anyday of the week


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## e-monk

HB said:


> Lol Amare played great with Starbury.


Amar'e's efg jumped 10 points when he started playing with Steve Nash


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## Noyze

ScottVdub said:


> Amare only played one season without Nash. He did win rookie of the year that season though, but he exploded under Nash.


Amare played 2 seasons without Nash. His 2nd year he averaged 20pg

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2004.html


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## caseyrh

VCHighFly said:


> Amare is better in every phase of the game other than rebounding.


IMO there is basically three phases of the game. Offense, Defense, and Rebounding.

Amare is better at offense (even though lee is a far better passer), defense is a wash (their both bad), and like you said Lee is a better rebounder (quite a bit better). 

So when you say Amare is better at "every phase of the game other than rebounding" it seems like a curious way of saying you think Amare is better at D. And they are both pretty terrible so who cares? 

Why not just say Amare is better at Offense?


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## Wade County

Lee's also a pretty good passer lets not forget, and also more durable.

I still take Amare.


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## ScottVdub

Noyze said:


> Amare played 2 seasons without Nash. His 2nd year he averaged 20pg
> 
> http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2004.html


My bad. I smoked alot of marijuana back then so i don't remember too much.


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## Sir Patchwork

Amare is more valuable. Teams have to gameplan for him or he will just kill you. David Lee is a pick up the scraps type player. He is a nice player, but Amare is more valuable.


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## e-monk

Sir Patchwork said:


> Amare is more valuable. Teams have to gameplan for him or he will just kill you. David Lee is a pick up the scraps type player. He is a nice player, but Amare is more valuable.


This - Amar'e is a primary scoring option, Lee is a role player

maybe the real question should be how much better is Amar'e than say, Zach Randolph?


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## Jakain

Amar'e is on another tier than Lee and Randolph. Few players can dominate in the NBA whether its the regular season or the playoffs like Amar'e can on offense especially when it comes to bigs. You basically can't defend against him.


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## e-monk

I think you can defend against him, actually, and it is pretty basic

make him play pick and roll with Raymond Felton instead of Steve Nash, dont let him get away from you in transition, dont let him get the easy stuff, stay between him and the basket and force him to rely on his mid range game 

the guy isnt Duncan or Pau on the block he relies a lot on dunks in transition and off the ball opportunities created by movement or plays like the P&R


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## Jakain

Nah you can't really defend against Amar'e since he's got such a great offensive game and still has elite athleticism (beyond just leaping as well, he's a great overall athlete including footwork speed) to the point where no one can really contain him . What other big can light up the best frontcourt in the NBA (Lakers) like Amar'e did? Maybe Dirk and thats it? Imo its laughable to compare him to David Lee and Zach Randolph as well since he's a much better player.


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## Tragedy

I'm glad people are realizing that Lee is not on Amare's level.

Look at Lee in Golden State. He'll have two or three taking shots before him, and I doubt they draw plays for Lee.

But you take Amare and put him on the warriors, and you're tailoring the team around Amare.

Amare's rebounding is weak, but I fully expect him t get 8-9 rebounds a game.


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## e-monk

Lebronathon said:


> Nah you can't really defend against Amar'e since he's got such a great offensive game and still has elite athleticism (beyond just leaping as well, he's a great overall athlete including footwork speed) to the point where no one can really contain him . What other big can light up the best frontcourt in the NBA (Lakers) like Amar'e did?
> 
> *he had two big games against the Lakers and they otherwise held him under his season average in that series*
> 
> Maybe Dirk and thats it? Imo its laughable to compare him to...
> 
> *Dirk in terms of skillsets? totally agree*
> 
> David Lee and Zach Randolph as well since he's a much better player.


*you have a highly inflated opinion of Amar'e's offensive skillset - while he's definitely better than Lee, Randolph is probably more skilled than Amar'e on the block and is a better rebounder (of course he's a lot less athletic)

again Amar'e is not an unstoppable force, too much of his offensive game (and efficiency) is based on easy baskets on P&Rs and in transition - in other words offensively he is more like Dwight Howard than he is Tim Duncan

and so he can be stopped*


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## Hyperion

e-monk said:


> *you have a highly inflated opinion of Amar'e's offensive skillset - while he's definitely better than Lee, Randolph is probably more skilled than Amar'e on the block and is a better rebounder (of course he's a lot less athletic)
> 
> again Amar'e is not an unstoppable force, too much of his offensive game (and efficiency) is based on easy baskets on P&Rs and in transition - in other words offensively he is more like Dwight Howard than he is Tim Duncan
> 
> and so he can be stopped*


You may no longer post regarding Amare. You are just making stuff up. It's quite ridiculous. You have never watched him play except for maybe against your Lakers. Either way, terrible understanding of his game.


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## Dre

I'm just happy we'll finally have the opportunity to see Amare without Nash so people can deservedly feel like dumbasses with their little evaluations of what he is.


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## e-monk

Hyperion said:


> You may no longer post regarding Amare. You are just making stuff up. It's quite ridiculous. You have never watched him play except for maybe against your Lakers. Either way, terrible understanding of his game.


wow I had no idea you had such power on this site - let's see if it works:

Amar'e does not have a very sophisticated post game and is dependent on tablesetting and transition for much of his high efficiency shots


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## e-monk

nope, sorry, guess it didnt work


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## HB

Tragedy said:


> I'm glad people are realizing that Lee is not on Amare's level.
> 
> Look at Lee in Golden State. He'll have two or three taking shots before him, and I doubt they draw plays for Lee.
> 
> But you take Amare and put him on the warriors, and you're tailoring the team around Amare.
> 
> *Amare's rebounding is weak, but I fully expect him t get 8-9 rebounds a game*.


Heh?


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## Sir Patchwork

e-monk said:


> Amar'e does not have a very sophisticated post game and is dependent on tablesetting and transition for much of his high efficiency shots


This is not true though. Amare is a guy you can feed in the post in a halfcourt setting and he will score efficiently. He has great touch, is very good with his feet (utilizes spin moves, pump fakes and pivots very well, among other things), and is always in attack mode. Plus everybody knows he can finish. 

You're underrating his post game. It may not be back to the basket post game, but his face up post game results in a high percentage shot close to the basket enough that it doesn't really matter.


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## HB

He's a mid post guy sorta like Bosh. Not sure about feeding him in the post, but he can get his points in a variety of ways. He's not particularly dependent on a point guard like Nash, but it does make the game easier for him. I sense he'd work great with a guy like Baron too.


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## Sir Patchwork

He worked well with Marbury, and looks to work well with Felton too. It's easy to set the table for a guy who will dunk anything within 5-7 feet of the hoop.


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## HB

If Melo goes there, he's even going to be more devastating


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## Jakain

e-monk said:


> *you have a highly inflated opinion of Amar'e's offensive skillset - while he's definitely better than Lee, Randolph is probably more skilled than Amar'e on the block and is a better rebounder (of course he's a lot less athletic)
> 
> again Amar'e is not an unstoppable force, too much of his offensive game (and efficiency) is based on easy baskets on P&Rs and in transition - in other words offensively he is more like Dwight Howard than he is Tim Duncan and so he can be stopped*


I'm not talking just about skillsets, I'm talking about Amar'e's overall level of offense which includes his ability to get past and finish against opposing bigs. You can gameplan against him and try to make it harder for him to score but he's still going to get 20 pts on nearly 59% TS. When it comes to NBA bigs on offense, only Dirk has as dominant of an impact and both of these guys also have proven it again and again in the playoffs.

When it comes to comparing Amare's offense to other players I'd say his leans towards David Robinson more than Dwight Howard or Tim Duncan. I don't like comparing him to Dwight at all since Dwight has no touch, has a much smaller overall game on offense, no jumpshot, and sucks at the free throw line (underrated part of Amar'es game is his 76% career FT). 



Dre™;6386927 said:


> I'm just happy we'll finally have the opportunity to see Amare without Nash so people can deservedly feel like dumbasses with their little evaluations of what he is.


Without Nash he put up 20.6 pts in his sophomore season. Amare may not be as athletic as he used to be (which is a scary thought since he's still an elite NBA athlete) but he's also got more weapons in his game too.



Sir Patchwork said:


> This is not true though. Amare is a guy you can feed in the post in a halfcourt setting and he will score efficiently. He has great touch, is very good with his feet (utilizes spin moves, pump fakes and pivots very well, among other things), and is always in attack mode. Plus everybody knows he can finish.
> 
> You're underrating his post game. It may not be back to the basket post game, but his face up post game results in a high percentage shot close to the basket enough that it doesn't really matter.


In addition he's got a decent jumper and can finish at the charity stripe as well.



Hyperion said:


> You may no longer post regarding Amare. You are just making stuff up. It's quite ridiculous. You have never watched him play except for maybe against your Lakers. Either way, terrible understanding of his game.


I'm going to have to agree towards this opinion. Even against the Lakers in the playoffs, Amar'e averaged 2 more points than his regular season production wiht a 60%TS, and that was against the best frontcourt in the league.


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## Hyperion

e-monk said:


> wow I had no idea you had such power on this site - let's see if it works:
> 
> Amar'e does not have a very sophisticated post game and is dependent on tablesetting and transition for much of his high efficiency shots


You can say whatever you want, but you say it without any credibility at all. In fact, you are so completely wrong it's not even funny. You haven't even watched him play yet you assume many things about his game. 

For shiggles, Amare has one of the best midrange jumpshots (15-20ft) in the league for a big man. He will hit that shot if you don't close in on him. If you close in on him, he has one of the quickest first steps of any big man in the league and will get by the defender. Once he gets past the defender, he will dunk it if he's within 5-7 feet of the hoop and most likely draw a foul as well.

There was one player in the NBA that could cover Amare single handedly. That person was KG. Now he can't cover Amare anymore.


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## caseyrh

I think people are getting to defensive about Amare here and starting to lose sight of the comparison.

Lee didn't get to play with Nash last year. He got to play with _Duhon_ who is even far worse than Felton.

They both had inflated stats being in similar high octane offenses. And yet Lee still averaged 20 on comparable shooting percentages to Amare who averaged 23.

So the question is do you trade those extra 3 points on slightly more efficient scoring but playing with Nash vs Duhon (tremendous difference), for Lee's extra 3 rebounds and 2.5 assists. Thats the question. They both are bad defenders so I don't even think its worth it discussing that.

I think if you take star power and rep out of this, it is a perfectly reasonable comparison. 

Personally considering the situations they were both in last year and the numbers they put up I think Lee was better last year. I think the large gap in rebounding and passing makes up for the scoring differences. 

And I am also very curious to see how Amare does without all of the easy buckets Nash gets him. We sure as hell know Lee wasn't getting the same kind of looks from Duhon last year...


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## Sir Patchwork

If you want to talk statistically, Amare has seasons where his PER was 27.6, 26.6, 23.1 and 22.6. All higher than David Lee's career *best* last year of 22.2. Amare has been the leading scorer on actual title contending teams. Two of those teams that won 60+ games. He has two seasons above 25+ points per game. 

You can rationalize all you want about how David Lee's rebounding and passing makes up for Amare's superior scoring ability, but I think it's ridiculous to compare their scoring abilities as if Lee is only _slightly_ inferior. Can you imagine Lee being the primary scorer on a championship team? Hell no. The Knicks have won an average of *28 games* per season in the 5 seasons Lee has been there, and 33 being the most in a season. 

Nobody cares about playing the Knicks and nobody is gameplanning for David Lee. Amare Stoudemire is a force that you have to gameplan for, or he will absolutely abuse you and you will lose the game. You can let David Lee run around and gather his stats, and still beat the Knicks. That's the difference.


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## Sir Patchwork

I'm not even that big of an Amare fan. He sucks on defense and on the boards, and his attitude is questionable. You have to respect his scoring ability though. He is just an animal when it comes to putting the ball in the hoop. Nash or no Nash, transition or halfcourt, post or midrange. Doesn't matter. He can do it.


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## Jakain

caseyrh said:


> I think people are getting to defensive about Amare here and starting to lose sight of the comparison.
> 
> Lee didn't get to play with Nash last year. He got to play with _Duhon_ who is even far worse than Felton.
> 
> They both had inflated stats being in similar high octane offenses. And yet Lee still averaged 20 on comparable shooting percentages to Amare who averaged 23.
> 
> So the question is do you trade those extra 3 points on slightly more efficient scoring but playing with Nash vs Duhon (tremendous difference), for Lee's extra 3 rebounds and 2.5 assists. Thats the question. They both are bad defenders so I don't even think its worth it discussing that.
> 
> I think if you take star power and rep out of this, it is a perfectly reasonable comparison.
> 
> Personally considering the situations they were both in last year and the numbers they put up I think Lee was better last year. I think the large gap in rebounding and passing makes up for the scoring differences.
> 
> And I am also very curious to see how Amare does without all of the easy buckets Nash gets him. We sure as hell know Lee wasn't getting the same kind of looks from Duhon last year...


You ignore that unlike David Lee, Amare is double teamed and his stats leads to winning and has proven himself in the playoffs. Ideally you don't want either player as a key part of your team but few players in the league can dominate like Amar'e can on offense.


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## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> If you want to talk statistically, Amare has seasons where his PER was 27.6, 26.6, 23.1 and 22.6. All higher than David Lee's career *best* last year of 22.2. Amare has been the leading scorer on actual title contending teams. Two of those teams that won 60+ games. He has two seasons above 25+ points per game.
> 
> You can rationalize all you want about how David Lee's rebounding and passing makes up for Amare's superior scoring ability, but I think it's ridiculous to compare their scoring abilities as if Lee is only _slightly_ inferior. Can you imagine Lee being the primary scorer on a championship team? Hell no. The Knicks have won an average of *28 games* per season in the 5 seasons Lee has been there, and 33 being the most in a season.
> 
> Nobody cares about playing the Knicks and nobody is gameplanning for David Lee. Amare Stoudemire is a force that you have to gameplan for, or he will absolutely abuse you and you will lose the game. You can let David Lee run around and gather his stats, and still beat the Knicks. That's the difference.


No question Amare used to put up a lot better years then he has the last 2 years.

But I didn't think we were talking about who has had the better career but who is better now.

If I am confusing the arguement then by all means you are right Amare has the better career.

But if we are looking at who is better right now then I have to point to the fact that Lee has been improving steadily and Amare's best years are 3 years behind him...

And looking at last year in spite of Amare getting to play with one of the best pg's in the NBA and Lee getting to play with one of the worst. They were still comparable offensiveley. In fact very similar even though Amare was in a much better situation.

Lee is a very good rebounder, Amare is a very poor rebounder. Some of you guys seem to not care about rebounding and passing but it is in fact a very important part of the game.
Amare is terrible at both and Lee is very good at both.

And also lets not pretend Amare is a Duncan like player that you throw the ball into and he scores for you. Ive seen this be mentioned quite a few times. and it is silly. Does he score in the post? Sure but not a lot. He scores primarily off pick and roles, that goofy play him and nash run where nash drives and amare slips behind him and nash dumps the ball, he cuts down the middle for buckets, he gets a fair amount of 8 footers, fast breaks and the occasional post up. 

He is NOT the half court, throw it in to the post type, that some of you are trying to make him out to be...


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## caseyrh

Lebronathon said:


> You ignore that unlike David Lee, Amare is double teamed and his stats leads to winning and has proven himself in the playoffs. Ideally you don't want either player as a key part of your team but few players in the league can dominate like Amar'e can on offense.


Amare is not consistently double teamed. It might sound good to say that but is simply not true. No one on phoenix really gets double teamed there are too many good shooters there. Nash gets the most defensive attention by far.

His stats lead to _regular season_ wins because he plays with a ton of talent. put him on teams with poor talent and he wouldnt win... its amazing that people dont understand this.


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## Jakain

caseyrh said:


> No question Amare used to put up a lot better years then he has the last 2 years.
> 
> But I didn't think we were talking about who has had the better career but who is better now.
> 
> But if we are looking at who is better right now then I have to point to the fact that Lee has been improving steadily and Amare's best years are 3 years behind him...


Amare's better now and he played like he was the best big man in the NBA during the 2nd half of the past season, at least in the West.



> And looking at last year in spite of Amare getting to play with one of the best pg's in the NBA and Lee getting to play with one of the worst. They were still comparable offensiveley. In fact very similar even though Amare was in a much better situation.


They're only close if you compare their raw stats and if you ignore that Lee isn't double teamed, gameplanned against, and doesn't win anywhere near as much. For what its worth, Amar'e still put up 20+ pts without Nash in his sophomore season and he's got more weapons in his arsenal now. He's also beasting it in the preseason, FWIW.



> Lee is a very good rebounder, Amare is a very poor rebounder. Some of you guys seem to not care about rebounding and passing but it is in fact a very important part of the game.
> Amare is terrible at both and Lee is very good at both.


Of course rebounding and passing are important parts of the game but Lee doesn't beat Amar'e out in those areas like Amar'e does when it comes to being a dominant scorer that leads to wins.



> And also lets not pretend Amare is a Duncan like player that you throw the ball into and he scores for you. Ive seen this be mentioned quite a few times. and it is silly. Does he score in the post? Sure but not a lot. He scores primarily off pick and roles, that goofy play him and nash run where nash drives and amare slips behind him and nash dumps the ball, he cuts down the middle for buckets, he gets a fair amount of 8 footers, fast breaks and the occasional post up.
> 
> He is NOT the half court, throw it in to the post type, that some of you are trying to make him out to be...


I don't understand why people try to fault the fact that he runs a ton of pick and rolls with Steve Nash...basically all great bigs run PnRs, basic basketball play. Duncan also runs a ton of pick and rolls as well. Amar'e's got a great overall offensive game that most teams will just have to let him get his points since he can't really be stopped like you can with Dwight Howard. He's more David Robinson than Tim Duncan.



caseyrh said:


> His stats lead to _regular season_ wins because he plays with a ton of talent. put him on teams with poor talent and he wouldnt win... its amazing that people dont understand this.


You do realize his stats and impact got the Suns a playoffs lock and went to the _Western Conference Finals_ a few months ago? And that Amar'e has quite a few playoffs wins in his career in general by basically taking over the game on offense?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

caseyrh said:


> But I didn't think we were talking about who has had the better career but who is better now.


Unless you believe 27 year old Amare Stoudemire is out of his prime, then using other prime seasons absolutely gives us context to who is the better player right now. 



caseyrh said:


> Lee is a very good rebounder, Amare is a very poor rebounder. Some of you guys seem to not care about rebounding and passing but it is in fact a very important part of the game.
> Amare is terrible at both and Lee is very good at both.


I care about rebounding and passing, but those weaknesses can be offset. Put Amare next to a big defensive center (think Perkins) and that's a championship caliber frontcourt. There isn't a roleplayer you could put next to David Lee where they become a championship caliber frontcourt. He is jack of many trades, but master of none. He could be easily neutralized by a team gameplanning for him. History has shown that Amare is much harder to neutralize, even by defensive juggernauts in competitive playoff series'. 



caseyrh said:


> He scores primarily off pick and roles


You act like this is a bad thing. He is a pick and roll nightmare. He was with Marbury, was with Nash, and will continue to be with Felton. Like I said, when you have a guy his size and power, who has great hands and touch, and will dunk anything 5-7 feet from the hoop, it's not hard to set the table. 

I mean, Karl Malone scored primarily off of pick and rolls. That doesn't take away from his ability.


----------



## hobojoe

People claiming Stoudemire has a limited offensive game and basically only dunks the ball are stuck in 2004. Open your eyes and watch a game or two, that criticism is way outdated. He's a much better player than David Lee too.


----------



## JerryWest

e-monk said:


> *you have a highly inflated opinion of Amar'e's offensive skillset - while he's definitely better than Lee, Randolph is probably more skilled than Amar'e on the block and is a better rebounder (of course he's a lot less athletic)
> 
> again Amar'e is not an unstoppable force, too much of his offensive game (and efficiency) is based on easy baskets on P&Rs and in transition - in other words offensively he is more like Dwight Howard than he is Tim Duncan
> 
> and so he can be stopped*


Amare is one of, if not the best offensive big man in the game. He can score at will in the post, he has a steady mid range jump shot that he can make if you give him any space, he attacks the basket and gets fouled, when he gets fouled he can consistently drain free throws.

You are a straight up fool :horsepoop:

Either that or your too poor to own a TV, because then you would have realized that Amare has one of the best mid range jump shots of any big man in the league.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> Unless you believe 27 year old Amare Stoudemire is out of his prime, then using other prime seasons absolutely gives us context to who is the better player right now.


lol. Of course Amare is out of his prime!!! You say 27 like he is a typical 27 year old NBA player, The dude has grinded out 8 injury riddled seasons in the NBA. He has had micro-fracture knee surgery. His last "prime season" was three years ago. What would make you think he is in his prime???




> I care about rebounding and passing, but those weaknesses can be offset. Put Amare next to a big defensive center (think Perkins) and that's a championship caliber frontcourt.


Funny thing is the player that _is_ part of a chapionship frontcourt and _does_ play with Perkins. Is actually an excellent rebounder, excellent defender, and excellent passer. (Garnett). Garnett is on a completeley different level than Amare. So I'm not sure this comment holds any water at all. I mean maybe if perkins had won with a Amare like player I could understand...



> There isn't a roleplayer you could put next to David Lee where they become a championship caliber frontcourt.


And there isn't a roleplayer that you could put next to Amare that would make a championship frontcourt.


> He is jack of many trades, but master of none. He could be easily neutralized by a team gameplanning for him. History has shown that Amare is much harder to neutralize, even by defensive juggernauts in competitive playoff series'.


You act as if I am saying Lee is a superstar. They are both basically the same player but Lee is a much better rebounder and passer and Amare is a better finisher.



> You act like this is a bad thing. He is a pick and roll nightmare. He was with Marbury, was with Nash, and will continue to be with Felton.


Nash and Marbury are much better than Felton. But really Nash is he perfect guy to run a pick and roll with. Because he is one of the greatest shooters in the history of the NBA and also one of the better passers of recent memory. It is the absolute perfect combo. 

But I don't have any problem with the pick and roll thing its just not as important of a role as a "low post nightmare" would be. It is just much different creating your own offense on the block and making teams constantly collapse on you, then scoring because you can finish really well and you are playing with a deadly shooter who frees you up.


> Like I said, when you have a guy his size and power, who has great hands and touch, and will dunk anything 5-7 feet from the hoop, it's not hard to set the table.


All of these little arguments pointing to how good Amare really is, How do they impact what Lee did? I mean Lee can finish right??? He scores very efficiently. Lee doesn't have NAsh.He had garbage duhon... How come all you guys have to say is all of the things Amare does well and yet you give Lee no credit for doing the very same things well in a much more difficult situation??


> I mean, Karl Malone scored primarily off of pick and rolls. That doesn't take away from his ability.


Yeah and Karl Malone had a _much_ better post game and was the type of guy you could come down and throw the ball into the post and let him go to work. But he was alsos a much better passer and a much better rebounder, and a much better defender.


----------



## caseyrh

Kenneth said:


> Amare is one of, if not the best offensive big man in the game. He can score at will in the post, he has a steady mid range jump shot that he can make if you give him any space, he attacks the basket and gets fouled, when he gets fouled he can consistently drain free throws.
> 
> You are a straight up fool :horsepoop:
> 
> Either that or your too poor to own a TV, because then you would have realized that Amare has one of the best mid range jump shots of any big man in the league.


I find it interesting. That a team with the league MVP (nash), prime Amare "the best offensive big man in the game", Joe Johnson and Shawn Marion (not to mention guys like Barbosa and Q-Rich. Would get steamrolled by the Spurs.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

caseyrh said:


> What would make you think he is in his prime???


Last year, during the "crunchtime" of Phoenix's season (February, March, April), Amare was putting up 25-27ppg and 9-10rpg. Dude still has it. 



caseyrh said:


> Funny thing is the player that _is_ part of a chapionship frontcourt and _does_ play with Perkins. Is actually an excellent rebounder, excellent defender, and excellent passer. (Garnett). Garnett is on a completeley different level than Amare. So I'm not sure this comment holds any water at all. I mean maybe if perkins had won with a Amare like player I could understand...


You completely misunderstood the point. 

When a player has an *elite* attribute like Amare does, you don't just dismiss it because of what he can't do. You offset his weakness so that you can utilize his strength. Perkins is a very good space-eater, rebounder and tough defender. These traits will hide Amare's weakness so that they can piggyback his strength, and since his strength is good enough to headline an elite offense, it's worth it. 

David Lee doesn't have any attribute worth building around. 



caseyrh said:


> You act as if I am saying Lee is a superstar. They are both basically the same player but Lee is a much better rebounder and passer and Amare is a better finisher.


Andre Iguodala and Kobe Bryant are basically the same player, except Andre is a better rebounder, passer and defender...and Kobe is a better scorer...I didn't realize it was this simple. 



caseyrh said:


> All of these little arguments pointing to how good Amare really is, How do they impact what Lee did? I mean Lee can finish right??? He scores very efficiently. Lee doesn't have NAsh.He had garbage duhon... How come all you guys have to say is all of the things Amare does well and yet you give Lee no credit for doing the very same things well in a much more difficult situation??


Lee is a nice player, but he has put up numbers for a team that no opposing coach has ever taken that seriously. Nobody is doubling Lee. Nobody is having their squad watch a bunch of gamefilm on Lee. They let him gather his stats while the Knicks collect their L's. 



caseyrh said:


> Yeah and Karl Malone had a _much_ better post game and was the type of guy you could come down and throw the ball into the post and let him go to work. But he was alsos a much better passer and a much better rebounder, and a much better defender.


Malone did not have any better post game that Amare. He was a much better defender, rebounder and passer. As a scorer, he was not any better than Amare. Amare's scoring arsenal is just as diverse as Malone's was. 

They're both mainly face-up post players, and pick and roll players, who can score in the post in the halfcourt if you need them to.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> Last year, during the "crunchtime" of Phoenix's season (February, March, April), Amare was putting up 25-27ppg and 9-10rpg. Dude still has it.


If you think Amare is in his prime that's fine. But I got 2 years worth of stats that say he isn't.




> You completely misunderstood the point.
> 
> When a player has an *elite* attribute like Amare does, you don't just dismiss it because of what he can't do. You offset his weakness so that you can utilize his strength. Perkins is a very good space-eater, rebounder and tough defender. These traits will hide Amare's weakness so that they can piggyback his strength, and since his strength is good enough to headline an elite offense, it's worth it.


I dont think you understand your point. You think Perkins can cover up all of Amare's problems and make a championship frontcourt. Yet Perkins is actually part of a championship frontcourt, one that has a pf that does all of the things Amare doesn't. So how is that a good example??? Go find a roleplayer championship Center that plays with a terrible defensive, rebounding, and passing pf. Then make that point. It would make sense. Perkins has never shown that he could cover up all of those weaknesses. 

What you are saying is that you _think_ Perkins could cover up all of his weaknesses. But he has never demonstrated the ability to do that. It is strictly an opinion and Perkins is meaningless. 


> David Lee doesn't have any attribute worth building around.


What about leading the league in asists for his position, and being tied for 3rd in rebounding, plus scoring 20 ppg very efficiently. 


Oh thats right you have to score 23 ppg to be good (not a measly 20ppg). I forgot that the extra 3 ppg means everything.






> Andre Iguodala and Kobe Bryant are basically the same player, except Andre is a better rebounder, passer and defender...and Kobe is a better scorer...I didn't realize it was this simple.


Yeah because the scoring gap between Iggy and Kobe is similar to the gap between Amare and Lee. (10 points vs 3)



> Lee is a nice player, but he has put up numbers for a team that no opposing coach has ever taken that seriously. Nobody is doubling Lee. Nobody is having their squad watch a bunch of gamefilm on Lee. They let him gather his stats while the Knicks collect their L's.


I'm sorry but this statement is ridiculous. It really sounds like it is coming from someone who has never played competitive organized sports. You act as if NBA teams go into games against the Knicks and don't care or make a gameplan. Like they just don't care or realize that Lee is their best player. Trust me Lee gets a lot of attention and teams treat the knicks similar to how they treat every team in the NBA. Lee gets keyed on like other teams best players. 

Terrible arguement, and i have seen used here a few times.

Oh and by the way The knicks were 1 and 1 against phoenix this year and Lee outplayed Amare in both games...




> Malone did not have any better post game that Amare. He was a much better defender, rebounder and passer. As a scorer, he was not any better than Amare. Amare's scoring arsenal is just as diverse as Malone's was.
> 
> They're both mainly face-up post players, and pick and roll players, who can score in the post in the halfcourt if you need them to.


Lol. I won't get into this one. But you are crazy for saying Malone didn't have a better post game then Amare. 

Malone was on a different level offensiveley then Amare.


----------



## Diable

It really amazes me that people want to look at raw numbers without any context. There's a monumental difference between the way you defend roleplayers and the way you defend stars. The star players produce numbers when the other team is playing a defensive scheme which is geared towards stopping them. 

If you don't think about stopping Lebron James he's going to sit out the 4th quarter with fifty points. If you don't think about stopping Amare he's going to get forty and you're going to lose because he's going to do it very efficiently. David Lee gets his numbers because the other team doesn't care if he gets his number. Why should you bother trying to stop him when there's very little bad that can happen to you by playing him straight up.


----------



## caseyrh

Diable said:


> It really amazes me that people want to look at raw numbers without any context. There's a monumental difference between the way you defend roleplayers and the way you defend stars. The star players produce numbers when the other team is playing a defensive scheme which is geared towards stopping them.
> 
> If you don't think about stopping Lebron James he's going to sit out the 4th quarter with fifty points. If you don't think about stopping Amare he's going to get forty and you're going to lose because he's going to do it very efficiently. David Lee gets his numbers because the other team doesn't care if he gets his number. Why should you bother trying to stop him when there's very little bad that can happen to you by playing him straight up.


Some of you guys really are clueless. The fact that anyone here thinks teams don't care what Lee does because he is only the best player on the _Knicks_ just shows how out of touch you guys are with competitive sports. 

The arguement you should be using is that the reason Lee is putting up numbers is because he is surrounded by weaker talent which gives him more responsibility and more touches than he would get if he was playing with players that were better than him. Not that he is on a bad team so nobody tries against him. 

Patchwork even said teams don't even watch much game film on him. 

These teams prepare virtually the same regardless of who they are playing. And they formulate a strategy that they believe is the best one to win said game.

It's not like they go out and play the knicks and say you know what let's play with a bad strategy and not care about the game.


----------



## Tragedy

caseyrh said:


> Some of you guys really are clueless. The fact that anyone here thinks teams don't care what Lee does because he is only the best player on the _Knicks_ just shows how out of touch you guys are with competitive sports.
> 
> The arguement you should be using is that the reason Lee is putting up numbers is because he is surrounded by weaker talent which gives him more responsibility and more touches than he would get if he was playing with players that were better than him. Not that he is on a bad team so nobody tries against him.
> 
> Patchwork even said teams don't even watch much game film on him.
> 
> These teams prepare virtually the same regardless of who they are playing. And they formulate a strategy that they believe is the best one to win said game.
> 
> It's not like they go out and play the knicks and say you know what let's play with a bad strategy and not care about the game.


Of course teams go over players. They do study film.

However, game-planning for a player is completely different.

That's when you have an entire defensive strategy designed to limit the impact of a star player. Teams do it for Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Paul, Deron, Howard etc.

They don't do it for guys like David Lee. They generally guard them straight up.

People who think David Lee is anywhere near Amare are nuts. ESPECIALLY if you base it on his production for a lottery team compared to Amare on a playoff team.

Of course, the real test for Amare starts now.

Is he going to rise to stardom and find himself as a superstar, or is he gonna wilt and just be a very good player?


----------



## JerryWest

caseyrh said:


> I find it interesting. That a team with the league MVP (nash), prime Amare "the best offensive big man in the game", Joe Johnson and Shawn Marion (not to mention guys like Barbosa and Q-Rich. Would get steamrolled by the Spurs.


It's not that surprising if you knew that Duncan is probably the best PF of all time, that Parker is a top 5 PG, that Gino was a top 15 player in the league at the time.

But given how ignorant you are about the NBA now a days, I'd doubt you know that.

Anyone that watches the actual games would know that teams actually bother to gameplan against Amare and that it isn't needed for Lee. Getting your career high of 20 ppg on the team that plays the highest pace in the game is nothing to brag about offensively.

Good offensive players don't go 1 for 11 shooting against the Phoenix Suns like Lee recently did, especially when you got Turkoglu guarding you. You put Turkoglu on Amare and he's shooting 60% or better and getting 40 points.
http://www.nba.com/games/20101019/GSWPHX/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore

You pick an outlier year for Lee as your basis of comparison and the funny thing is that it doesn't even compare to any of Amare's best years. Amare is going to have a near career year IMO and the Knicks are definitely going to be doing better with him over Lee record wise.


----------



## Dre

Lebronathon said:


> Without Nash he put up 20.6 pts in his sophomore season. Amare may not be as athletic as he used to be (which is a scary thought since he's still an elite NBA athlete) but he's also got more weapons in his game too.



I'm agreeing with you


----------



## caseyrh

Kenneth said:


> It's not that surprising if you knew that Duncan is probably the best PF of all time, that Parker is a top 5 PG, that Gino was a top 15 player in the league at the time.
> 
> But given how ignorant you are about the NBA now a days, I'd doubt you know that.



Umm I realize that the Spurs were much better than the Suns. Mostly because Duncan was far better than Amare. 

But my point was that some of you talk about Amare like he is a superstar. If he is such an incredible player than how come he couldn't do better with all of that talent around him??? 

As for me being ignorant about the NBA I'll let that one slide as you clearly have no clue what you are talking about.


> Anyone that watches the actual games would know that teams actually bother to gameplan against Amare and that it isn't needed for Lee. Getting your career high of 20 ppg on the team that plays the highest pace in the game is nothing to brag about offensively.


This again. It's a shame most of you guys apparently never played organized sports at a competitive level, otherwise you would know you prepare for every game and always use the best possible strategy.

And using the pace of play arguement against Lee is interesting considering the Suns are always right there at the top of the list and in fact all of Amare's "prime years" were with the same coach and same system as the Knicks. Its just that the knicks had duhon and the suns Nash.



> Good offensive players don't go 1 for 11 shooting against the Phoenix Suns like Lee recently did, especially when you got Turkoglu guarding you. You put Turkoglu on Amare and he's shooting 60% or better and getting 40 points.
> http://www.nba.com/games/20101019/GSWPHX/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore


.

Did you really just use a preseason NBA boxscore. To demonstrate that Lee is no good???

Come on. Are you serious?

You atre out of touch with reality here and are grasping at straws.



> You pick an outlier year for Lee as your basis of comparison and the funny thing is that it doesn't even compare to any of Amare's best years.


By outlier year, do you mean last year??? Yeah I'm just going off of recent history.

Like I said before I am not discussing prime Amare from 3 years ago, I am discussing the current Amare. 


> *Amare is going to have a near career year IMO* and the Knicks are definitely going to be doing better with him over Lee record wise


The bolded part is great. I know I won't remember but I would love to bring this up at the end of the year....

As for the knicks being better this year they better be. They spent a ton of money and played with depleted rosters prior to this year. However I think most people realize that if the roster stays the same this is only a borderline playoff team. Nothing special here.


----------



## Dre

I know one thing...Amare routinely made Duncan look two years older than he was at the time and will continue to do so.


----------



## caseyrh

Tragedy said:


> Of course teams go over players. They do study film.


correct



> However, game-planning for a player is completely different.
> 
> That's when you have an entire defensive strategy designed to limit the impact of a star player. Teams do it for Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Paul, Deron, Howard etc.


Look you might not think so, But teams have strategys to guard every important player on every team in the NBA. You better believe opposing coaching staffs are diagnosing exactly what lee does and have what they believe is the best possible strategey to minimize his impact on the game. He is after all the best player on the team.
Does Lee get guarded like Lebron? Of course not. But this is about Amare vs Lee. Why does everyone here seem to believe Amare is getting doubled all game???? Some of you guys need to watch suns games.


> They don't do it for guys like David Lee. They generally guard them straight up.


lol. Whatever.


> People who think David Lee is anywhere near Amare are nuts. ESPECIALLY if you base it on his production for a lottery team compared to Amare on a playoff team.


Amare is going to have more talent around him this year then Lee did last year. We will see just how much better that Knicks team does.




> Of course, the real test for Amare starts now.
> 
> Is he going to rise to stardom and find himself as a superstar, or is he gonna wilt and just be a very good player?


My guess he is going to be the same player. 

I.E. No D, No rebounding, No passing. But he can score. Really selfish way to play and not the best recipe for winning. But hey as long as the fans like it...


----------



## caseyrh

Dre™ said:


> I know one thing...Amare routinely made Duncan look two years older than he was at the time and will continue to do so.


Im sure Amare "got his". But Timmy must have averaged 25 and 13 in that easy 5 game series for the Spurs. Hardly a rough one for Duncan.


----------



## Dre

The main argument is about Amare's offensive ability though, and you're acting like he's a Nash drone. Good Nash looks notwithstanding you're not going to routinely go off on a prime Tim Duncan if you don't have top tier offensive ability. 

He's the best player in the league next to LeBron at finishing under contact. He has touch most post players would envy. He can still get by and over most interior defenders..there's just not a lot you can say to discredit Amare's scoring ability. Get over it. He's not a great back to the basket player, but who needs to be when you're (still) one of the most explosive players in the league off the faceup?

There's not a player at or above 6-10 I'd take above him *offensively* besides maybe Dirk.


----------



## caseyrh

Dre™ said:


> The main argument is about Amare's offensive ability though, and you're acting like he's a Nash drone. Good Nash looks notwithstanding you're not going to routinely go off on a prime Tim Duncan if you don't have top tier offensive ability.


I think you are mistaking me. 

I am just trying to make a comparison between todays version of Amare and todays version of Lee. They both play in a very similar offense. Which is why I bring p Nash. Because obviously there is such an enormous difference between having Duhon set the table for you and having Nash set it for you.

So given there similar offenses that is the one major difference I am trying to point out. But by no means do I think he is a "Nash Drone". I think Amare is an incredible finisher probably the best in the league. (maybe like you said Lebron is better). I just think that _some _of that additional 3 ppg has to do with Amare playing with Nah opposed to Duhon. Can we agree on that?
So lets look at the rest of the game since both score in a similar fashion and with similar efficiency. Is it so unreasonable to suggest that the extra 3 rpg and 2.5 apg make up for the 3 ppg advantage Amare has?



> He's the best player in the league next to LeBron at finishing under contact.


I agree


> He has touch most post players would envy.


I agree


> He can still get by and over most interior defenders..


I agree


> there's just not a lot you can say to discredit Amare's scoring ability.


I haven't really. But scoring in the halfcourt offense, in the post is much more important to a team, then the way Amare does it. It's just a truth to basketball. Having a guy that you can just pound it in to is one of the most potent weapons in the game.


> Get over it.


Over what?


> He's not a great back to the basket player, but who needs to be when you're (still) one of the most explosive players in the league off the faceup?


He's a great finisher and really nice in the pick and roll. Even his 8-15 foot game is really solid.


> There's not a player at or above 6-10 I'd take above him *offensively* besides maybe Dirk.


Your wrong there.

Gasol, Bosh, and Dirk are all for sure better than him offensively. Yao Ming when healthy, Even Lopez will probably better this year. I think if Blake Griffin was on the suns he would put up better numbers.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Casey, I think you're outnumbered on this one, kiddo. I think you have your mind made up on this issue, so it is what it is.


----------



## Dre

I don't know how you can objectively agree with me on Amare than act like Lee is in the same boat in terms of offensive ability.

And by comparing Amare to Blake Griffin and Brook Lopez you expose yourself.


----------



## caseyrh

Dre™ said:


> I don't know how you can objectively agree with me on Amare than act like Lee is in the same boat in terms of offensive ability.


You forget that Lee scores in pretty much the same way in pretty much the same offense, and pretty much just as efficiently. You act as if Lee is some bum and Amare is this phenomenal scorer. Really their scoring is pretty similar.


> And by comparing Amare to Blake Griffin and Brook Lopez you expose yourself.


Well lopez is a true post player who can get you 20 a night at a young age getting doubledall night long. I value that type of scoring more than Amare's style. Plus I think Lopez will continue to improve (the learning curve can be quite steep for his style of big man). And I think Amare will continue to decline. It is perfectly reasonable.

As for Griffin, I can understand why that opinion would be looked down upon. But it doesn't matter it is just my personal belief and I one I can't support and don't expect anyone beliee it until they watch him this year. The dude is an animal and the suns offense would suit him perfectly, he would ominate there and certainly have a ridiculous amount of rebounds. Something Amare is to selfish to put any effort into.


----------



## Dre

We will see about all of this sir.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> Casey, I think you're outnumbered on this one, kiddo. I think you have your mind made up on this issue, so it is what it is.


I accept that I am outnumbered. But there is always a much larger element of fans that appreciate a player that dunks and scores a lot, then fans that appreciate passing and rebounding. It's just the nature of fandom.


----------



## seifer0406

Diable said:


> It really amazes me that people want to look at raw numbers without any context. There's a monumental difference between the way you defend roleplayers and the way you defend stars. The star players produce numbers when the other team is playing a defensive scheme which is geared towards stopping them.
> 
> If you don't think about stopping Lebron James he's going to sit out the 4th quarter with fifty points. If you don't think about stopping Amare he's going to get forty and you're going to lose because he's going to do it very efficiently. David Lee gets his numbers because the other team doesn't care if he gets his number. Why should you bother trying to stop him when there's very little bad that can happen to you by playing him straight up.


This pretty much sums up my thoughts on this.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that David Lee isn't a good offensive player, I believe anyone who's 20/10 and shoots a good percentage should be considered a good scorer. However, you still have to differentiate him with guys that can do it even when opposing teams focus their defense on him. Amare has proven himself to be a better scorer against the best defenders in the past decade. Not saying Lee has no chance to become a guy like that, he needs to prove it. Nobody would be making these arguments for Amare if he didn't drop 40 on Duncan in the playoffs, let Lee do the same.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

caseyrh said:


> I accept that I am outnumbered. But there is always a much larger element of fans that appreciate a player that dunks and scores a lot, then fans that appreciate passing and rebounding. It's just the nature of fandom.


Dunks aside, it's easier to find rebounding than an elite efficient scoring big man. That's really the bottom line.


----------



## Dre

..Cause Patchwork said so

:hano:

*picture it backwards*


----------



## Hyperion

If Amare shows on PnRs and boxes out a little bit this year, he could be an MVP candidate. The heavens would have to split open and Jesus himself would have bless Lee with a better skillset in order for him to be considered an MVP candidate.


----------



## Hyperion

caseyrh said:


> Im sure Amare "got his". But Timmy must have averaged 25 and 13 in that easy 5 game series for the Spurs. Hardly a rough one for Duncan.


It was the fact that the Suns had no bench and were starting STEVEN HUNTER as center! Oh and Duncan averaged closer 14rpg and 28ppg in that series. That's not the point. He was PRIME MVP Duncan that year. The story was that he was the best defensive big man in the NBA and was PWNED by Amare. Amare averaged 37ppg against Duncan. The only reason the Suns lost was that they couldn't rebound the ball because Duncan is an ALL AROUND great player.


----------



## caseyrh

Hyperion said:


> If Amare shows on PnRs and boxes out a little bit this year, he could be an MVP candidate. The heavens would have to split open and Jesus himself would have bless Lee with a better skillset in order for him to be considered an MVP candidate.


Unfortunateley for this comment to make sense it would... well have to make sense. There is zero chance of Amare being a MVP candidate.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> Dunks aside, it's easier to find rebounding than an elite efficient scoring big man. That's really the bottom line.


Let me just get this straight.

23.1 ppg on .557 fg shooting= an elite efficient scoring big man

but

20.2 ppg on .545 fg shooting does not?

It's like somewhere in that 2.9 ppg and .012 fg shooting gap all hell breaks loose. You go from great scorer to average scorer in a very tiny margin.

Really pretty similar in my eyes. And like I said before I'm sure the difference between Nash and Duhon had _something_ to do with it.

Also some people would point to the extra 2.5 assists (which might equate to 5 more points for your team depending on how you look at it) as evidence that Lee is more efficient than Amare as well. Considering Lee even turns the ball over slightly less...

Then when you factor in the rebounding I think there is an arguement to be made here.


----------



## caseyrh

Hyperion said:


> It was the fact that the Suns had no bench and were starting STEVEN HUNTER as center! Oh and Duncan averaged closer 14rpg and 28ppg in that series. That's not the point. He was PRIME MVP Duncan that year. The story was that he was the best defensive big man in the NBA and was PWNED by Amare. Amare averaged 37ppg against Duncan. The only reason the Suns lost was that they couldn't rebound the ball because Duncan is an ALL AROUND great player.


The Suns had Steven Hunter playing 14 mpg in the playoffs. The Spurs had Nazr Mohammed averaging 23 mpg. So I dont think this series was decided by token centers.

Here was the Suns Rotation in the playoffs:

Stoudamire
Nash
Marion
Joe Johnson
Quentin Richardson
Jimmy Jackson
Hunter 
Barbosa

But I love how You Say Duncan was "pwned" by stoudamire. When Stoudamire probably had more talent around him then Duncan. And yet got bounced in 5 games and Timmy averaged 28 and 14. 

At some point you have to realize that Timmy plays team D as well. Something Stoudamire does not believe in. Maybe if Stoudamire put out just a little bit of effort on the other end of the court or in rebounding he wouldn't have the same amount of energy to set screens for Nash and role to the basket.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

David Lee is only 1 year younger than Amare, and his career average is *13.0* points per game. He has *one* season *barely* over 20ppg (20.2), and his next highest is 16.0ppg. That's on a team that has won an average of 28 games during his career. 

Amare has a career average of *21.4* points per game, and he has *SIX* seasons better than David Lee's very best break-out scoring season including two 25ppg+ seasons. That's on teams that have won an average of 50 games, plus two 60 win teams. 

Please stop comparing them as scorers. Come on, it's not close.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> David Lee is only 1 year younger than Amare, and his career average is *13.0* points per game. He has *one* season *barely* over 20ppg (20.2), and his next highest is 16.0ppg. That's on a team that has won an average of 28 games during his career.
> 
> Amare has a career average of *21.4* points per game, and he has *SIX* seasons better than David Lee's very best break-out scoring season including two 25ppg+ seasons. That's on teams that have won an average of 50 games, plus two 60 win teams.
> 
> Please stop comparing them as scorers. Come on, it's not close.


again I am not comparing their careers, or what they were 3 years ago, I am comparing the current versions of them.

I don't know how many times we have to go over this...


----------



## Tragedy

Let's just put this thread on pause since the opposing viewpoints won't see eye to eye.

10 games in, we'll revisit this topic and see what's going on, and keep it going the rest of the season.

I just hope excuses won't be made for the players.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

caseyrh said:


> again I am not comparing their careers, or what they were 3 years ago, I am comparing the current versions of them.


The current version of Amare Stoudemire averaged 26.6ppg and 9.6 rpg in the 29 games after the all-star break. 

If you refuse to look at a bigger sample size of their prime careers and use simply current production, then that's it. 2009 is in the past just as much as 2008 and 2007. 2010 numbers are what matter right? That's why the "current version" argument is ridiculous. How current? 1 game? 10 games? 30 games? A couple seasons provide better context, but even by your standards, Stoudemire has been a lot better scorer in 2010, which is current.


----------



## Dre

This will go down as a pathetic thread.


----------



## seifer0406

Kind of funny how these "current stats" didn't apply to Rose when we were ranking him.


----------



## seifer0406

And let's face it, is this discussion really necessary? Is David Lee really going to play in any games that matter? At least the Knicks have a chance to make the playoffs in the East, with Lee chances are he's not going to play in a single playoff game until he's 33.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> Kind of funny how these "current stats" didn't apply to Rose when we were ranking him.


Apparently you cant tell the difference between projecting Rose to improve and projecting Amare to improve...

No point in arguing a very simple concept here.


> And let's face it, is this discussion really necessary? Is David Lee really going to play in any games that matter? At least the Knicks have a chance to make the playoffs in the East, with Lee chances are he's not going to play in a single playoff game until he's 33.


They are both on virtually identical teams as far talent goes. Is it really a valid point to imply that Amare is better simply because his team might have a better chance of squeaking into the playoffs?


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> Apparently you cant tell the difference between projecting Rose to improve and projecting Amare to improve...
> 
> No point in arguing a very simple concept here.


But we're not comparing Rose with Amare here, we're comparing Lee with Amare. Lee isn't projected to improve more than Amare next year, that's why you're basing your comparison on their recent performances. If you want to pick the angle that suits your argument that's alright with me but it's just funny to me that a great number of Bull fans just recently collectively used a different angle to argue for their favorite player.

But despite all that, Amare is better than Lee in the past and in all likelihood will be better than him in the future. Like I said, the Warriors are not going to make the playoffs next year or the year after and chances are the year after that. Like it or not the Knicks are on the ups right now and will at least be playoff contention starting this year if not next. Amare got his reputation as an elite player due to his performance in the playoffs, I just don't see how Lee is going to match him by playing for a bottom feeder team. And it's not so much what Amare needs to do in the future to prove that he's better than Lee, it's what Lee needs to do to prove that he's on Amare's level. We've already seen Amare drop 37 points a game against Duncan, I've yet to see Lee in a playoff game. In fact, I've yet to see Lee playing a game where the result will impact whether his team will make the playoffs. That's the type of discrepancy we're dealing with here.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> But we're not comparing Rose with Amare here, we're comparing Lee with Amare.


of course we are nit comparing them. but you came in here and said that somehow i was being two-faced, by projecting Rose to improve in other threads but not projecting Amare to improve this year...

Again if you can't see the difference in projecting Rose to improve (someone who has clearly and steadily continued to improve and is only 21 with loads of potential) vs projecting Amare to improve (a player who has been declining for the last couple seasons and is obviously past his prime). Then again it really isn't worth discussing.

It is quite obvious the differences between Rose and Amare and where they are in their careers. Figure it out.


> Lee isn't projected to improve more than Amare next year


Clearly you have not even looked at how these 2 players careers are moving. Lee has improved dramatically basically every year he's been in the league. He is coming off of 3 consecutive seasons of ridiculous improvement. Why would he not be projected to improve more????

Amare's best seasons are literally 3 years behind him.

If I removed the names of the players and just listed their stats from the past three season every person in here would say Lee Stats over the past 3 years would make it more likeley that he would continue to improve and that Amare's stats would make you believe that he was on the decline.

Your kidding yourself if thats not the logical outcome when looking at their career.






> , that's why you're basing your comparison on their recent performances.


Exactly I could be even more persuasive and suggest that Lee will improve and Amare won't. But up until you have bringing this up (thanks by the way) I haven't even mentioned it because I didn't feel it was worth it when last years stats point to Lee (IMO) having a better season anyways.



> If you want to pick the angle that suits your argument that's alright with me but it's just funny to me that a great number of Bull fans just recently collectively used a different angle to argue for their favorite player.


Somehow you think you have caught me in something. But you are obviously incapable of understanding a typical players career arc. Amare should _continue_ to decline and Rose should _continue_ to improve. Saying I think Rose will improve and Amare won't , only means I am being consistent in my arguements.




> But despite all that, Amare is better than Lee in the past and in all likelihood will be better than him in the future.


Amare has certainly had the better career. I have never argued that. The future is another thing entireley.


> Like I said, the Warriors are not going to make the playoffs next year or the year after and chances are the year after that. Like it or not the Knicks are on the ups right now and will at least be playoff contention starting this year if not next.


I love how you want to use this particular arguement. Clearly you don't realize how similar these teams are. When they play each other Vegas will have this game as a pick-um. The Warriors might even be the favorites. You act like Amare is on the Lakers or something. They are both on really mediocre teams.



> Amare got his reputation as an elite player due to his performance in the playoffs, I just don't see how Lee is going to match him by playing for a bottom feeder team. And it's not so much what Amare needs to do in the future to prove that he's better than Lee, it's what Lee needs to do to prove that he's on Amare's level. We've already seen Amare drop 37 points a game against Duncan, I've yet to see Lee in a playoff game. In fact, I've yet to see Lee playing a game where the result will impact whether his team will make the playoffs. That's the type of discrepancy we're dealing with here.


Youre talking 5 or 6 years ago. And his reputation as a playoff performer is really pretty meaningless to me. Because he has consistently gotten beat by teams less talented than his. If anything the playoffs have shown us how Amare's overtly selfish play is not conducive to winning.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> Clearly you have not even looked at how these 2 players careers are moving. Lee has improved dramatically basically every year he's been in the league. He is coming off of 3 consecutive seasons of ridiculous improvement. Why would he not be projected to improve more????


The problem is Lee isn't projected to be a better player next year. He's again playing for a team where the majority of games will be meaningless. His team isn't going to the playoffs anytime soon. The odds are the Warriors won't even make the playoffs by the time David Lee's contract runs out. He won't be able to take that next step. I don't doubt he will put up good looking numbers, but they are meaningless numbers. Look at Monta Ellis, Stephen Jackson, Corey Maggette, and all those Warriors that have padded their stats playing meaningless games. Lee isn't going to prove that he's amongst the elite playing in such an environment



> Somehow you think you have caught me in something. But you are obviously incapable of understanding a typical players career arc. Amare should continue to decline and Rose should continue to improve. Saying I think Rose will improve and Amare won't , only means I am being consistent in my arguements.


I never said that you were two-faced or whatever that means. I said I found it humorous that you rely so much on stats when discussing about Lee whereas stats wasn't a major factor when you guys were discussing about Rose. If you don't see the humor in it, let's just forget it, it's not important.



> I love how you want to use this particular arguement. Clearly you don't realize how similar these teams are. When they play each other Vegas will have this game as a pick-um. The Warriors might even be the favorites. You act like Amare is on the Lakers or something. They are both on really mediocre teams.


It doesn't change the fact that the Knicks will compete for the playoffs whereas the Warriors will finish 12th or 13th in their conference. I'm not necessarily talking about just next year either, the Knicks are in a much better position to move forward either talent wise or cap wise. I see it as an obvious choice to pick the Knicks as the team that will likely be involved in meaningful games in the short future.



> Youre talking 5 or 6 years ago. And his reputation as a playoff performer is really pretty meaningless to me. Because he has consistently gotten beat by teams less talented than his. If anything the playoffs have shown us how Amare's overtly selfish play is not conducive to winning.


I wasn't aware that the Spurs and Lakers are less talented than the Suns. 

Btw, do you realize that the guy did play 82 games last year and averaged 23/9? For a guy that's declining due to injuries that seems like a pretty decent number. If you look at Amare's career, he's had 1 spectacular season where he averaged 26 and he averaged 25 after returning from injuries. We're not talking about Jermaine O'neal here where the guy is clearly done.


----------



## caseyrh

I wont bother breaking this all down again. But I don't buy your arguement that Amare will be better because he might be on a playoff team.

I think this is a very bad arguement on behalf of Amare. No matter how much you try and force it down my throat. I don't care that his team has a better chance of making they playoffs. Maybe this makes everyone on the knicks better than everyone on the warriors also? It's a strange arguement.

Also I would like to point out that the suns made it to the western conference finals *without* Amare. 

Shocking that you could take a prime Amare off of the Suns (and Joe Johnson btw). and they would still do the same thing in the playoffs, the very next year.

Maybe Amare isn't really that conducive to winning after all???


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> Also I would like to point out that the suns made it to the western conference finals *without* Amare.
> 
> Shocking that you could take a prime Amare off of the Suns (and Joe Johnson btw). and they would still do the same thing in the playoffs, the very next year.
> 
> Maybe Amare isn't really that conducive to winning after all???


So are you saying that Amare makes no impact to the team because they made it to the conference finals without him? 

I mean really?

If you cannot tell that the Suns are a better team with Amare vs. without Amare, then I really don't know what else to say. If you can tell that they're better, theres no point for this discussion either way.

And let me remind you one more time that David Lee is the one that needs to prove that he is comparable to Amare. There aren't people out there (with the exception of you) putting Lee in the same echelon as Amare. Amare has proven to be effective against the elite big men in the league when it matters the most, David Lee hasn't done squat. With the way things are looking for Lee and the Warriors, the guy is going to play the next 3-5 of his prime years for *nothing*. I know you don't care if the Knicks can do anything in the Eastern conference, but don't you at least care whether the Warriors can do something in the West? David Lee isn't going to get his recognition playing on a 25 win team.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> So are you saying that Amare makes no impact to the team because they made it to the conference finals without him?
> 
> I mean really?
> 
> If you cannot tell that the Suns are a better team with Amare vs. without Amare, then I really don't know what else to say. If you can tell that they're better, theres no point for this discussion either way.


My point is that he is a big man that doesn't bother to play defense, doesn't bother to rebound, and doesn't pass _at all_. Guys like that often don't help you win much regardless of how good he is on the pick and roll or moving without the ball and finishing.

It's just that a lot of you guys don't understand that. 

A lot of you keep pointing to his 5 game playoff loss to the spurs as his crowning achievement. Like it is the reason he is a hall of famer. If anything that 5 game series just demonstrates how overrated he is. 

Yeah great you averaged 37 against the spurs. You were at your selfish best and all that came out of it was one win. And the next year without you your team does just as good. 

I promise you that rebounding and passing are important parts of basketball (ill leave d out of this particular discussion because Lee is no good at d either) and even though you don't care about it I do.

So just to clarify my stance one last time:

I believe that Lee v Amare is a valid comparison. And because I am looking at who is better now and that in all likelihood neither one of these players will progress much, and that neither one of them plays d, I will choose to go primarily off of last _years_ stats. And when looking at last years stats and considering how close their scoring numbers are I will choose the big man that gets 3 rebounds more and 2.5 assists more because I believe rebounding and passing are important, and pass on the one that gets 3 more points.

My choice is Lee and that is how I arrived there. I don't care about Amare's _illustrious_ career. I'm interested in now.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> My point is that he is a big man that doesn't bother to play defense, doesn't bother to rebound, and doesn't pass _at all_. Guys like that often don't help you win much regardless of how good he is on the pick and roll or moving without the ball and finishing.


D'Antoni teams generally don't play any defense. They did a fine job winning doing so. It would be different if Amare played in another system and he refused to play defense and the team struggled. He was a perfect fit for the D'Antoni system and the fact is they won games. Amare did what he was asked in that system, which is to score. 




> A lot of you keep pointing to his 5 game playoff loss to the spurs as his crowning achievement. Like it is the reason he is a hall of famer. If anything that 5 game series just demonstrates how overrated he is.


No, the fact is at least he has that in his resume whereas David Lee hasn't played a meaningful game past allstar break. We're not comparing Amare to hall of famers, we're comparing him to David lee.

As I said earlier, I'm not ruling out that Lee may improve and become a player comparable to Amare, but to compare the both of them now imo is ridiculous.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Lakers guarding David Lee with Matt Barnes, and Lee can't even take advantage. LOL.


----------



## zagsfan20

Sir Patchwork said:


> Lakers guarding David Lee with Matt Barnes, and Lee can't even take advantage. LOL.


Lee is a 20/10 caliber player, I'm sure he knows how to take advantage.


----------



## Dre

David Lee wouldn't score 20 point on Matt Barnes.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Dre™ said:


> David Lee wouldn't score 20 point on Matt Barnes.


Mark Jackson..."If I'm the Lakers, I let David Lee try to post up all day, that's working in my favor"


----------



## caseyrh

You are bashing Lee for a _preseason_ game in which he scored 16 points on 66% fg shooting, and added 14 rebounds and 4 assists.

(also outperformed his counterpart Gasol)


LOL

Biased much?


----------



## Sir Patchwork

I'm not biased, it's just so plainly obvious that David Lee is not near the scorer than Amare Stoudemire is. That's all.


----------



## zagsfan20

Sir Patchwork said:


> I'm not biased, it's just so plainly obvious that David Lee is not near the scorer than Amare Stoudemire is. That's all.


How do you figure?

I guess we'll see if Amare lives up to Lee's 20ppg on 55% shooting surrounded by that horrible cast of characters on the Knicks.


----------



## Diable

I had no idea Lee was so overrated. Funny thing is I've never seen him being overrated by a Knicks fan. They seem to be painfully aware of the flaws in his game, quite painfully.


----------



## rayz789

Is this a silly question? Of Course Amare is better. Opps i'm sorry i meany WAY better then David Lee. I like Lee but lets face it he's not an explosive scorer like Amare. You know what people didn't mention? Amare went to his first playoff as a rookie with freaking Marbury but Lee couldn't with Marbury? Hmmm. But seriously this thread question no offense is stupid.


----------



## rayz789

Diable said:


> I had no idea Lee was so overrated. Funny thing is I've never seen him being overrated by a Knicks fan. They seem to be painfully aware of the flaws in his game, quite painfully.


Lee is only overrated in this thread by some knuckle heads believing Lee is better.


----------



## zagsfan20

rayz789 said:


> Is this a silly question? Of Course Amare is better. Opps i'm sorry i meany WAY better then David Lee. I like Lee but lets face it he's not an explosive scorer like Amare. You know what people didn't mention? Amare went to his first playoff as a rookie with freaking Marbury but Lee couldn't with Marbury? Hmmm. But seriously this thread question no offense is stupid.


Complete different Marbury, I'm sorry you don't realize that. Don't know what to tell ya.

Explosive or not, doesn't have to do with anything, both are 20 point scorers on 55% shooting.


----------



## rayz789

zagsfan20 said:


> Complete different Marbury, I'm sorry you don't realize that. Don't know what to tell ya.
> 
> Explosive or not, doesn't have to do with anything, both are 20 point scorers on 55% shooting.


How is Marbury complete different with Amare and different with Lee?


----------



## zagsfan20

rayz789 said:


> How is Marbury complete different with Amare and different with Lee?


Marbury wasn't the same level of headcase when he was with Phoenix. He was actually good.


----------



## Tragedy

zagsfan20 said:


> How do you figure?
> 
> I guess we'll see if Amare lives up to Lee's 20ppg on 55% shooting surrounded by that horrible cast of characters on the Knicks.


The thing is, when Lee put those numbers up the Knicks were a joke.

With Amare there's talk of playoffs. So Amare isn't gonna get the same (non)attention that Lee got.


----------



## caseyrh

the problem is that most of you guys are just simply going off of name recognition. Amare is way more popular so Amare must be better.

Whenever most of you actually try and support your arguements you go back multiple years in order to do it.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

I went back "multiple years" to 2010 when Amare averaged 26/10 and that doesn't count even those you swear you're just talking about the "current versions" of these players. You're the one cherry picking your sample size and trying to use those stats as the end-all. 

Regardless, it doesn't even take stats to see that Amare is a far better scorer than Lee.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> I went back "multiple years" to 2010 when Amare averaged 26/10 and that doesn't count even those you swear you're just talking about the "current versions" of these players. You're the one cherry picking your sample size and trying to use those stats as the end-all.


You are using a third of Amare's season to point out how good he _really_ is. It's not like he is improving as a player so I don't see the point in cherry picking a small portion of the year to justify how good he is. Lee's numbers were actually better over that stretch also, but I don't see you using his final third of the season. Anyways I am looking at the full season not just the portion that suits my arguement.


> Regardless, it doesn't even take stats to see that Amare is a far better scorer than Lee.


And I have never argued that Amare is not a better scorer. Just simply that the gap in scoring does not make up for the huge disparity in passing and rebounding.


----------



## Tragedy

caseyrh said:


> You are using a third of Amare's season to point out how good he _really_ is. It's not like he is improving as a player so I don't see the point in cherry picking a small portion of the year to justify how good he is. Lee's numbers were actually better over that stretch also, but I don't see you using his final third of the season. Anyways I am looking at the full season not just the portion that suits my arguement.
> 
> 
> And I have never argued that Amare is not a better scorer. Just simply that the gap in scoring does not make up for the huge disparity in passing and rebounding.


And you're using ONE of David Lee's seasons on a team that was shot to judge him as a better player than Lee.

But like I said, let's kill this conversation for now. Let the season play out.

We'll see how Amare does statistically as a Knick, whether they win more games and function as a better team.

We'll see how Lee does statistically as a Warrior, and whether he has an impact on them winning games.

That's the only way we can wrap this conversation up.

Oh yeah, and since Lee is better than Amare, and is this great 20/10 player, he's going to have to be the number 1, or at worst number 2 option on that team. Whether you think Amare is worse or not, we do know that on any team in the league that doesn't have a top 5 player Amare would be the first option.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

caseyrh said:


> You are using a third of Amare's season to point out how good he _really_ is. It's not like he is improving as a player so I don't see the point in cherry picking a small portion of the year to justify how good he is. Lee's numbers were actually better over that stretch also, but I don't see you using his final third of the season. Anyways I am looking at the full season not just the portion that suits my arguement.


This is exactly the point, you refuse to use more than 1 season, but refuse to use anything less than 1 season. You refuse to acknowledge any other data ranges because it doesn't suit your argument. You're cherry-picking your sample size, like I said. 



caseyrh said:


> And I have never argued that Amare is not a better scorer. Just simply that the gap in scoring does not make up for the huge disparity in passing and rebounding.


And I don't dispute that Lee is better in other categories. My argument is that it's silly to try to rationalize Lee's scoring ability as if it's only _slightly_ inferior. Amare is a much better scorer.


----------



## caseyrh

Tragedy said:


> And you're using ONE of David Lee's seasons on a team that was shot to judge him as a better player than Lee.


Im using last year. The most recent season. Amare hasn't been in his prime for 3 years anywyas. Both players are actually ery comparable over the last 2 years also.



> We'll see how Amare does statistically as a Knick, whether they win more games and function as a better team.
> 
> We'll see how Lee does statistically as a Warrior, and whether he has an impact on them winning games.
> 
> That's the only way we can wrap this conversation up.


we will have to see.



> Oh yeah, and since Lee is better than Amare, and is this great 20/10 player,


being better than Amare certainly doesn't make you great. I never said Lee was anything more than just better than Amare.


> he's going to have to be the number 1, or at worst number 2 option on that team.


He's probably going to be the number 3 option on that team. (curry and Ellis). Doesn't change how good he is. He just happens to be playing with 2 high scoring guards.



> Whether you think Amare is worse or not, we do know that on any team in the league that doesn't have a top 5 player Amare would be the first option.


He certainly will be the number one on the knicks. (just like LEE was). And they will run their entire offense through him.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> This is exactly the point, you refuse to use more than 1 season, but refuse to use anything less than 1 season. You refuse to acknowledge any other data ranges because it doesn't suit your argument. You're cherry-picking your sample size, like I said.


How is _last year_ cherry picking?? I mean you can go back to the past 2 years if you want it still makes for a valid arguement. I'm just not interested in a third of a season or prime Amare when that ship sailed 3 years ago. Make sense???

Your grasping at straws because you know its ridiculous to go back 3 years to judge current versions of players, so your choosing small portions of a season to make your arguement.





> And I don't dispute that Lee is better in other categories. My argument is that it's silly to try to rationalize Lee's scoring ability as if it's only _slightly_ inferior. Amare *_was_ a much better scorer.


*fixed


----------



## Da Grinch

Lee has been playing center the last 2 years and he isn't a center , he's not big enough , strong enough or tough enough ...also since his game most resembles shareef abdur rahim who was a swing forward , most centers just aren't suited to defend him.

his stats aren't just inflated, they are the product of a system that cant and wont be replicated in golden state.

case in point despite lee's gaudy rebound stats in each of the last 2 season's the knicks rebounded better when lee was on the bench.

the warriors have a center and drafted a guy in udoh who supposedly can move over there as well. lee is not going to be used in the same way, unlike stoudamire he just isn't a power player.

thats why the lakers can get away with putting matt barnes on lee...who sees them trying the same with amare'


----------



## Sir Patchwork

caseyrh said:


> How is _last year_ cherry picking?? I mean you can go back to the past 2 years if you want it still makes for a valid arguement. I'm just not interested in a third of a season or prime Amare when that ship sailed 3 years ago. Make sense???


It makes sense for someone trying to rationalize an irrational stance. 

For all this hype, Lee better carry the Warriors to the playoffs or this **** is getting bumped. Don't disappear.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> It makes sense for someone trying to rationalize an irrational stance.
> 
> For all this hype, Lee better carry the Warriors to the playoffs or this **** is getting bumped. Don't disappear.




Why does Lee need to carry the Warriors to the playoffs to be better than Amare? Amare hasn't carried a team anywhere. Amare was always playing second fiddle to Nash and probably even third fiddle to Marion. He just scored the most in a ridiculous offense.

Lee in all likelihood will not be in the playoffs. If he does that is a great achievment, considering the teams the Warriors will have to beat out. 

I won't go anywhere. I said this on the Bulls board before last season started as well. I said Lee was better and that I would rather have him over Amare and guess what Lee outperformed Amare last year.

So I have already been right once.


----------



## caseyrh

Da Grinch said:


> Lee has been playing center the last 2 years and he isn't a center , he's not big enough , strong enough or tough enough ...also since his game most resembles shareef abdur rahim who was a swing forward , most centers just aren't suited to defend him.


Amare is not a center either and yet he spends a good portion of his time there. Who are all of the great rebounders stealing boards from Amare? 



> his stats aren't just inflated, they are the product of a system that cant and wont be replicated in golden state.


Amae's stats have _always_ been inflated in his system and they will continue to be.


> unlike stoudamire he just isn't a power player.


Amare's a power player??? okay 


> thats why the lakers can get away with putting matt barnes on lee...who sees them trying the same with amare'


again with the preseason game. Where Lee scored 16 on great shooting and grabbed 14 rebounds + 4assists, and held gasol to a terrible game.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

caseyrh said:


> Why does Lee need to carry the Warriors to the playoffs to be better than Amare?


He is playing with some talented players and if he is the kind of player you have to gameplan for, like Amare, his teammates will be eating off of that attention. Amare, Curry, Ellis, etc would be a playoff team.

We will also watch the Knicks, since Amare is taking Lee's place on that team with roughly the same amount of talent. Knicks won 29 games last year, so that's the bar. 



caseyrh said:


> Amare hasn't carried a team anywhere. Amare was always playing second fiddle to Nash and probably even third fiddle to Marion. He just scored the most in a ridiculous offense.


Amare was the Suns leader in PER in 2010 and 2008. Seasons they won 55 games and 54 games. He wasn't playing 2nd (or 3rd) fiddle to anyone.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> He is playing with some talented players and if he is the kind of player you have to gameplan for, like Amare, his teammates will be eating off of that attention. Amare, Curry, Ellis, etc would be a playoff team.
> 
> We will also watch the Knicks, since Amare is taking Lee's place on that team with roughly the same amount of talent. Knicks won 29 games last year, so that's the bar.


Knicks added Randolf, Felton, and Mozgov.
Those players alone should represent a 7-10 game improvement. Then once you factor in an extra year of development for all of their young players this team should be at least 12 games better or .500. 


> Amare was the Suns leader in PER in 2010 and 2008. Seasons they won 55 games and 54 games. He wasn't playing 2nd (or 3rd) fiddle to anyone.


I think a strong argument could be made that Nash has consistently been better than Amare. But I don't want to get into it.


----------



## Da Grinch

caseyrh said:


> Amare is not a center either and yet he spends a good portion of his time there. Who are all of the great rebounders stealing boards from Amare?
> 
> 
> Amae's stats have _always_ been inflated in his system and they will continue to be.
> 
> Amare's a power player??? okay
> 
> 
> again with the preseason game. Where Lee scored 16 on great shooting and grabbed 14 rebounds + 4assists, and held gasol to a terrible game.


with frye and robin lopez combined for nearly 3200 minutes last season the suns barely play amare at center anymore (he played 5x more at the 4 according to 82games.com ...lee by comparison plays 96 % of his minutes at center last season , earl barron , eddy curry and darko played less than 400 min. for the knicks last season)

its not really the same thing you seem to have it wrong , also back when they did play amare at center more often he was a much better defender, which is sad in itself because no one would ever call amare a good defender at center ...lee is simply the worst center defensively in the league ...at the 4 he is better but only marginally so , cant guard his man and doesn't help others, but at center he was so bad the knicks had to double any offensively inclined center in the league.

not so with amare.

and lee's stats aren't just inflated by pace but because he is a swing forward being guarded by centers...it pads his stats, not at all like amare who plays at an above avg. pace but is guarded mostly by players at his own position....he will be good in golden state but his stats will likely be down across the board , i doubt the same will be case for stoudamire

the simple fact is amare is better on both sides of the ball, lee is a better rebounder ...but the knicks were a better rebounding team when he wasn't on the court , in that respect he is overrated.


----------



## caseyrh

Da Grinch said:


> with frye and robin lopez combined for nearly 3200 minutes last season the suns barely play amare at center anymore (he played 5x more at the 4 according to 82games.com ...lee by comparison plays 96 % of his minutes at center last season , earl barron , eddy curry and darko played less than 400 min. for the knicks last season)
> 
> its not really the same thing you seem to have it wrong , also back when they did play amare at center more often he was a much better defender, which is sad in itself because no one would ever call amare a good defender at center ...lee is simply the worst center defensively in the league ...at the 4 he is better but only marginally so , cant guard his man and doesn't help others, but at center he was so bad the knicks had to double any offensively inclined center in the league.
> 
> not so with amare.
> 
> and lee's stats aren't just inflated by pace but because he is a swing forward being guarded by centers...it pads his stats, not at all like amare who plays at an above avg. pace but is guarded mostly by players at his own position....he will be good in golden state but his stats will likely be down across the board , i doubt the same will be case for stoudamire
> 
> the simple fact is amare is better on both sides of the ball, lee is a better rebounder ...but the knicks were a better rebounding team when he wasn't on the court , in that respect he is overrated.


are you really using Channing Frye to show that Amare doesn't play Center? 

Channing Frye sits on the outside all game looking for J's. He might guard the opposing teams Center but on offense, he is certainly not playing the role of a center. You know that, lets not be devious here.

Lee and Amare played in very similar offenses with very similar roles. I don't see why that would be argued.

Also Lee is clearly a FAR better rebounder than Amare. This comment you keep making:


> lee is a better rebounder ...but the knicks were a better rebounding team when he wasn't on the court , in that respect he is overrated.


Is baseless, I remember when before last season statistically the Thunder had played significantly better when Durant wasn't on the court, 2 years in a row. 
It's a goofy stat and hard to track or put much stock into. Bottomline is Lee is a very good rebounder and Amare is below Average.

As for the Defense arguement you made. Defense is so hard to quantify I don't really want to get into it, but let's just say their both terrible and claiming Amare is better is kind of silly. If he is it would just be by a tiny margin, so who cares? it's not worth arguing. He's still terrible.


----------



## Da Grinch

caseyrh said:


> are you really using Channing Frye to show that Amare doesn't play Center?
> 
> Channing Frye sits on the outside all game looking for J's. He might guard the opposing teams Center but on offense, he is certainly not playing the role of a center. You know that, lets not be devious here.
> 
> Lee and Amare played in very similar offenses with very similar roles. I don't see why that would be argued.
> 
> Also Lee is clearly a FAR better rebounder than Amare. This comment you keep making:
> 
> Is baseless, I remember when before last season statistically the Thunder had played significantly better when Durant wasn't on the court, 2 years in a row.
> It's a goofy stat and hard to track or put much stock into. Bottomline is Lee is a very good rebounder and Amare is below Average.
> 
> As for the Defense arguement you made. Defense is so hard to quantify I don't really want to get into it, but let's just say their both terrible and claiming Amare is better is kind of silly. If he is it would just be by a tiny margin, so who cares? it's not worth arguing. He's still terrible.


i see you have a reading comprehension problem .

i have said repeatedly one of the main reasons lee's stats are inflated is he is at center , he guards the opposing center , and the opposing center guards him.

its really simple but you dont seem to get it

not so with amare. the suns put actual centers on the floor , so amare is guarded by power forwards and he guards them as well.

last season ...amare = 4 
lee = 5

its kind of sad i have to keep repeating it.

as for defense , lee is just the worst , amare is just mediocre , there really is a significant difference , if you'd watched more knick games and could see the knicks lose repeatedly to teams like the bucks because bogut needs to be doubled or any decent offensive center, players most teams wouldn't consider double teaming for that matter it would be clearer to you .

and because it is so clear ...when you watch i just know its out of your ignorance of the matter.


----------



## e-monk

Da Grinch said:


> *dont you think that this fact:*
> 
> i have said repeatedly one of the main reasons lee's stats are inflated is he is at center , he guards the opposing center , and the opposing center guards him.
> 
> *that undersized Lee routinely has to cover a Bogut or a Howard might have something to do with this:*
> 
> as for defense , lee is just the worst , amare is just mediocre , there really is a significant difference , if you'd watched more knick games and could see the knicks lose repeatedly to teams like the bucks because bogut needs to be doubled or any decent offensive center, players most teams wouldn't consider double teaming for that matter it would be clearer to you .


just saying


----------



## Sliccat

> its really simple but you dont seem to get it
> 
> not so with amare. the suns put actual centers on the floor , so *amare is guarded by power forwards* and he guards them as well.
> 
> last season ...amare = 4
> lee = 5
> 
> its kind of sad i have to keep repeating it.


The problem is that this statement simply isn't true. The only time it was true was when they had Shaq, and if you look at the entire stretch of games they played together, it didn't make a significant difference in Amare's production. He blew up in the second half of that first season, and played below average (for him) in the next season.

Frye and Lopez are ALWAYS guarded by the other team's inferior post defender, whether that be a 4 or 5. The position they start at has little bearing on who guards Amare. It's a decision made for defensive and team offense purposes.


----------



## Zei_Zao_LS

As a suns fan I'll weigh in on the "Amare didn't do stuff in Phoenix" statement...

It's true that Nash makes the system go, he gets it running, but Amare is what made it work. Watch the Suns this year, no interior presence to force teams to sag men off in the paint and the Suns will not be shooting too many open three pointers. In that regard, also, Amare was our go-to guy to close out the last 6-8 minutes of every game. He was an effective isolation/face-up player from 12-18 feet, deadly ass midrange, and probably only two players in the league more feared once they make a move to attack the basket. (Can't put him ahead of Dwight or TheBron, in that regard.)

In a similar regard, he's been the most efficient volume scorer in the league since Shaq died. Not a whole lot of 20-26 PPG guys who go for 55+% from the field and 80+% from free throws.

I can also attest to Amare being a subpar defender on his best days... but he has improved on that. He's not the complete sieve that he was 5 years ago, he's actually capable of playing solid on-ball defense, it's just making off-ball defensive rotations and sticking with his man that has been a problem. I can't say the same for David Lee, who doesn't do any of that stuff.

I'll reiterate what a couple other people said... the only thing David Lee is better at than Amare is rebounding... and finishing with his left hand.


----------



## Tragedy

Zei_Zao_LS said:


> As a suns fan I'll weigh in on the "Amare didn't do stuff in Phoenix" statement...
> 
> It's true that Nash makes the system go, he gets it running, but Amare is what made it work. Watch the Suns this year, no interior presence to force teams to sag men off in the paint and the Suns will not be shooting too many open three pointers. In that regard, also, Amare was our go-to guy to close out the last 6-8 minutes of every game. He was an effective isolation/face-up player from 12-18 feet, deadly ass midrange, and probably only two players in the league more feared once they make a move to attack the basket. (Can't put him ahead of Dwight or TheBron, in that regard.)
> 
> In a similar regard, he's been the most efficient volume scorer in the league since Shaq died. Not a whole lot of 20-26 PPG guys who go for 55+% from the field and 80+% from free throws.
> 
> I can also attest to Amare being a subpar defender on his best days... but he has improved on that. He's not the complete sieve that he was 5 years ago, he's actually capable of playing solid on-ball defense, it's just making off-ball defensive rotations and sticking with his man that has been a problem. I can't say the same for David Lee, who doesn't do any of that stuff.
> 
> I'll reiterate what a couple other people said... the only thing David Lee is better at than Amare is rebounding... and finishing with his left hand.


Look. We appreciate your reply, but this thread is not for people who have seen both players play. 

This thread is for pure numbers crunching. 

So thanks, but no thanks </sarcasm>


----------



## GrandKenyon6

No one with a brain can possibly think that David Lee is even comparable to Amare Stoudemire.

And the Heat would have been much better if they went after Stoudemire instead of Bosh.


----------



## caseyrh

Da Grinch said:


> i see you have a reading comprehension problem .
> 
> i have said repeatedly one of the main reasons lee's stats are inflated is he is at center , he guards the opposing center , and the opposing center guards him.
> 
> its really simple but you dont seem to get it
> 
> not so with amare. the suns put actual centers on the floor , so amare is guarded by power forwards and he guards them as well.
> 
> last season ...amare = 4
> lee = 5
> 
> its kind of sad i have to keep repeating it.
> 
> as for defense , lee is just the worst , amare is just mediocre , there really is a significant difference , if you'd watched more knick games and could see the knicks lose repeatedly to teams like the bucks because bogut needs to be doubled or any decent offensive center, players most teams wouldn't consider double teaming for that matter it would be clearer to you .
> 
> and because it is so clear ...when you watch i just know its out of your ignorance of the matter.


The funny thing is that you dont understand your arguement.

you intended to point out that Lees success is partially do to opposing centers guarding him, which creates a mismatch. Problem is the same thing is true with Amare.

So then you point out that Frye plays center. Except you don't understand that opposing centers don't guard Frye!

When Frye and Amare are in, 9 times out of 10 the primary interior defender (center) will guard Amare. And the 4 will guard frye.

Get it??!!

Your whole point is invalid because of that truth.


----------



## caseyrh

e-monk said:


> just saying


Why'd you have to point out that obvious flaw in his reasoning?


----------



## Tragedy

Amare gets the ball near the three point arc, he has his man guarding him, another defender shading towards him, and the small forward looking at him too.

Don't remember that with David Lee...ever.


----------



## Tragedy

Now they just need to work on transition defense.


----------



## caseyrh

Tragedy said:


> Amare gets the ball near the three point arc, he has his man guarding him, another defender shading towards him, and the small forward looking at him too.
> 
> Don't remember that with David Lee...ever.


when a player has the ball at the 3pt line in the middle of the court, defenders tend to _look_ at the guy with the ball and shade towards him. But I guess this thread is for people who know nothing about basketball and defense for that matter.

On the bright side Amare did almost get triple double against the Raptors. 19, 10, and 9(turnovers).

Pretty tough for a big man to pull that off.


----------



## Diable

I say we bring back Amareca and only let him post in this thread. It'd get more interesting quick.

Hell if I was Amareca I would argue that Amare was the best player in the league for the second half of last season and that he probably had the biggest impact on winning and losing of any player in the league during that span. Someone else can dig up his numbers and the Suns record during that period.

I couldn't say that David Lee ever had an impact on winning, but I've seen him lead his team to a butt load of losses.


----------



## caseyrh

^ Lol


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> when a player has the ball at the 3pt line in the middle of the court, defenders tend to _look_ at the guy with the ball and shade towards him. But I guess this thread is for people who know nothing about basketball and defense for that matter.
> 
> On the bright side Amare did almost get triple double against the Raptors. 19, 10, and 9(turnovers).
> 
> Pretty tough for a big man to pull that off.


Did you actually watch the game or did you just go by raw stats?


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> Did you actually watch the game or did you just go by raw stats?


I watched the Bulls game. But I'm bored of the "did you watch the game" arguement. Ive seen Amare play enough to know his game. And I know basketball well enough to understand how people play defense when a player has the ball at the 3pt line. If you want me to watch every NBA game this year in order to have an opinion on players in the NBA you are soreley mistaken.

The knicks sweating one out against the Boshless raptors isn't such a great sign however.


----------



## Game3525

The Knicks at least have a shot for 7th or 8th seed in the East with Amare, with David Lee they would have trouble winning 28 games.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> I watched the Bulls game. But I'm bored of the "did you watch the game" arguement. Ive seen Amare play enough to know his game. And I know basketball well enough to understand how people play defense when a player has the ball at the 3pt line. If you want me to watch every NBA game this year in order to have an opinion on players in the NBA you are soreley mistaken.


Nobody is asking you to watch anything. However if you're going to comment on a game you should at least watch it so you would know what you're talking about.

Amare actually played quite well in that game and came up huge in crunch time. He had quite a few turnovers but that's more due to the Raptors crowding him everytime he had the ball.


----------



## caseyrh

Game3525 said:


> The Knicks at least have a shot for 7th or 8th seed in the East with Amare, with David Lee they would have trouble winning 28 games.


and yet they won 29 last year, with much worse talent surrounding Lee.

Why would they have won less this year?


----------



## Game3525

caseyrh said:


> and yet they won 29 last year, with much worse talent surrounding Lee.
> 
> Why would they have won less this year?


Alright, they would have trouble winning 29 games, you happy now? There is no way in hell they are in a playoff race with David Lee as their centerpiece.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

caseyrh said:


> But I'm bored of the "did you watch the game" arguement.


Says the guy who has used the "you disagree with me, you must not know the game of basketball" or "I can tell you never played organized basketball" argument. Kind of hypocritical.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> Nobody is asking you to watch anything. However if you're going to comment on a game you should at least watch it so you would know what you're talking about.
> 
> Amare actually played quite well in that game and came up huge in crunch time. He had quite a few turnovers but that's more due to the Raptors crowding him everytime he had the ball.


I can comment on things about basketball and a players performance (stats wise) without watching the game. Thanks though.

I never came in here claiming to know details or specifics about the game and you called me out for it regardless. 

Bottomline is when you almost lose to one of the worst teams in basketball and had 9 turnovers to go along with shooting below your normal fg% and scoring less points than normal. You probably didn't have a good game.

But most of you guys are so bias that it doesn't matter what really happened it is always going to be spun positively for Amare and negatively for Lee. As evidenced by this first game from Amare and Lee's last preseason game.

Oh and BTW. Barring a catastrophe The Warriors are going to beat the heavily favored rockets and Lee has *16, 15, and 5 right now. 

I don't want to get in the habit of doing this but a huge edge to Lee after game 1.


*17, 15 and 6


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> Says the guy who has used the "you disagree with me, you must not know the game of basketball" or "I can tell you never played organized basketball" argument. Kind of hypocritical.


Yeah I got to be honest though. Some of you guys really seem to have never actually played any reasonable level of basketball. And my comments when I made that statement were really geared more towards statements that were made by multiple people on here that made it blatantly obvious.

The other one a few posts up was really just a comment aimed at tragedy's earlier post.

But come on anyone pointing out that a defender is "looking" at Amare when he has the ball as evidence that Amare gets waaayyy more attention is seriously reaching or just has no clue how the game is played.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

I played organized basketball from 3rd grade, until my sophomore year in college. Every year, year-round. Amare is clearly better than David Lee, in my opinion. 

The point of his post was that defenses are geared to stop Amare. Teams don't guard Amare with one guy, they guard him with team defense. They have a gameplan for any direction he goes, when he goes, and who to leave open to double him. 

David Lee doesn't see anything close to this kind of defense. Teams play him single coverage and hope he forces up shots because he isn't good enough of a scorer to really make a difference.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> I can comment on things about basketball and a players performance (stats wise) without watching the game. Thanks though.


Nobody saying you can't comment on the game, just that you wouldn't know what you're talking about.



> I never came in here claiming to know details or specifics about the game and you called me out for it regardless.


I called you out on it because you made a crack at Amare implying that he had a subpar game. The fact is he was the main reason why the Knicks even won the game. The Raptors had trouble guarding him all night and their defense had to collapse on him when he made a move. The fact that he scored 7 straight points in the crunch to put the game away just added to that.



> Bottomline is when you almost lose to one of the worst teams in basketball and had 9 turnovers to go along with shooting below your normal fg% and scoring less points than normal. You probably didn't have a good game.


Boston lost to the Cavs, so what does that tell you. It's early in the season, teams are rusty. And even if the result did indicate where the teams are at it still doesn't mean Amare had a bad game. Players have good games in losses and bad games in wins, it happens all the time.


----------



## seifer0406

I didn't see your post because you edited. To "give an edge" to Lee is just silly considering the Warriors put up 132 points. I bet you didn't watch that game either. You take Amare out of that game and it would've probably been a blowout by the Raptors. You take Lee out of the game the Warriors probably would've still won it.


----------



## seifer0406

Sir Patchwork said:


> I played organized basketball from 3rd grade, until my sophomore year in college. Every year, year-round. Amare is clearly better than David Lee, in my opinion.
> 
> The point of his post was that defenses are geared to stop Amare. Teams don't guard Amare with one guy, they guard him with team defense. They have a gameplan for any direction he goes, when he goes, and who to leave open to double him.
> 
> David Lee doesn't see anything close to this kind of defense. Teams play him single coverage and hope he forces up shots because he isn't good enough of a scorer to really make a difference.


You heard of this guy called Charles Barkley? I heard he played some organized ball as well. His opinions on players are always so dead on. Every year he makes predictions on the NBA and I hear more often than not they are accurate.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> I played organized basketball from 3rd grade, until my sophomore year in college. Every year, year-round. Amare is clearly better than David Lee, in my opinion.
> 
> The point of his post was that defenses are geared to stop Amare. Teams don't guard Amare with one guy, they guard him with team defense. They have a gameplan for any direction he goes, when he goes, and who to leave open to double him.
> 
> David Lee doesn't see anything close to this kind of defense. Teams play him single coverage and hope he forces up shots because he isn't good enough of a scorer to really make a difference.


You played college basketball and you don't realize that teams prepare for every game no matter how good a team is in virtually the same way???

Something's not right there. Maybe your version of playing in college means intramural games.

And you don't need to explain his point to me. I understood it just fine the problem is his example was atrocious and further his point is just incorrect as is your defense of it.


----------



## Diable

So teams pay all those scouts and watch all that tape for absolutely no reason? You are completely full of ****.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> You heard of this guy called Charles Barkley? I heard he played some organized ball as well. His opinions on players are always so dead on. Every year he makes predictions on the NBA and I hear more often than not they are accurate.


Oh I get it. Your point is that playing competitive organized basketball has no bearing on ones knowledge of the game. Cool.

You ever hear of this guy Seifer0406 he _watches_ basketball and makes a lot of comments about basketball that make no sense.

See watching basketball doesn't mean anything either.


----------



## caseyrh

Diable said:


> So teams pay all those scouts and watch all that tape for absolutely no reason? You are completely full of ****.


I know your not defending me. So then what is your point?

I just said teams do watch tape for _all_ games and do prepare for _all_ games.

So how am i completeley full of ****?

And further how is you pointing this out supposed to indict me?

You must be defending me.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> Nobody saying you can't comment on the game, just that you wouldn't know what you're talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> I called you out on it because you made a crack at Amare implying that he had a subpar game. The fact is he was the main reason why the Knicks even won the game. The Raptors had trouble guarding him all night and their defense had to collapse on him when he made a move. The fact that he scored 7 straight points in the crunch to put the game away just added to that.
> 
> 
> 
> Boston lost to the Cavs, so what does that tell you. It's early in the season, teams are rusty. And even if the result did indicate where the teams are at it still doesn't mean Amare had a bad game. Players have good games in losses and bad games in wins, it happens all the time.


No point on breaking this all down.

But I'm not surprised at how you guys are trying to spin the first game for each of them, but come on... at some point you guys have to drop the nonsense and realize Lee had a better game here.

Let's be real.


----------



## Diable

Every single team has a video guy. At every half time that video guy gives every single player a DVD jackass. They use that DVD to show that player exactly what he should do differently...IN THE SECOND HALF!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're just not self aware if you don't realize that they have a gameplan for every game.


----------



## caseyrh

Diable said:


> Every single team has a video guy. At every half time that video guy gives every single player a DVD jackass. They use that DVD to show that player exactly what he should do differently...IN THE SECOND HALF!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're just not self aware if you don't realize that they have a gameplan for every game.


Your reading comprehension skills are amazing!!!

That is what I am saying. You are cursing me and telling me how stupid I am for sharing the very same opinion as you.


Do you not get it? 

MY POINT IS THAT EVERY NBA TEAM PREPARES HEAVILY FOR EVERY GAME REGARDLESS OF HOW BAD THE TEAM IS.

Every NBA team works hard to figure out the best possible gameplan for _every _team. Every NBA team has a detailed strategy based on how to defend against every player in the NBA. 

This is an opinion that we share and the people I am arguing with don't.

So curse them toughguy. Since you are on my side.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

caseyrh said:


> You played college basketball and you don't realize that teams prepare for every game no matter how good a team is in virtually the same way???


Teams prepare for every game, but you're showing your ignorance if you think teams prepare for every _player_ the same way. That's just incredibly dumb. You prepare for who you're playing against. 



caseyrh said:


> Something's not right there. Maybe your version of playing in college means intramural games.


Sadly, there are kids who play intramural basketball who can easily grasp these concepts that you're failing to comprehend.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

You are completely missing Diable's point. Holy ****.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

I'm done on this topic until next time, but David Lee made Luis Scola look like Karl Malone tonight. 36 pts, 16 rebs, 14/24fg. Damn.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> Teams prepare for every game, but you're showing your ignorance if you think teams prepare for every _player_ the same way. That's just incredibly dumb. You prepare for who you're playing against.


Did I ever say they prepare for every player the same way? No. I said they prepare for every team virtually the same way. Which means that they formulate the best gameplan to beat each team and the best gameplan to guard each player. 

You better believe that when a team plays against Lee who at the time was the best player on the knicks, that they are trying to minimize is effectiveness and stop him.

You are cluelees about basketball if you don't realize that.





> Sadly, there are kids who play intramural basketball who can easily grasp these concepts that you're failing to comprehend.


Unfortunately nobody watches gamefilm against opposing teams in intramural sports. So intramural sports wasn't really what I was referencing when I mentioned competitive and organized sports.




> You are completely missing Diable's point. Holy ****.


this is one time where I would actually appreciate you translating it then. Since it seems pretty clear to me that he is saying that NBA teams prepare heavily for all games. Something you and about 5 other people in this thread (including Diable I believe) have implied they do not.

How many times have you guys argued that Lee puts up good stats because opposing teams don't gameplan for, because the knicks are so bad?

Honestly I feel like you guys are all over the place here.

Please explain the true meaning of this:



> they have a gameplan for every game.


That means teams have a gameplan for every game. right?

So does that mean that they would just decide to ignore a team like the knicks and it's players because they are so bad???

That doesn't sound like much of a gameplan to me. But you intramural guys understand this gameplan stuff extremely well so I digress.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> Oh I get it. Your point is that playing competitive organized basketball has no bearing on ones knowledge of the game. Cool.
> 
> You ever hear of this guy Seifer0406 he _watches_ basketball and makes a lot of comments about basketball that make no sense.
> 
> See watching basketball doesn't mean anything either.


Actually I'm saying that using stereotypes is a terrible way to defend an argument. One would say that's perhaps a person's last resort when he runs out of things to say.



> No point on breaking this all down.
> 
> But I'm not surprised at how you guys are trying to spin the first game for each of them, but come on... at some point you guys have to drop the nonsense and realize Lee had a better game here.
> 
> Let's be real.


Actually *you were* the one evaluating Amare's first game. I only replied to you because you were off base in your evaluation, which is understandable since you didn't actually watch the game.

But *let's be real*, you're trying to convince us that David Lee made a similar impact as Amare, in a game where Monta Ellis almost put up a 50 burger. What's funnier is the Warriors had no answers for Luis Scola. The tag team of Lee/Biedrins ended up allowing this superstar go off for 36.



> That means teams have a gameplan for every game. right?
> 
> So does that mean that they would just decide to ignore a team like the knicks and it's players because they are so bad???
> 
> That doesn't sound like much of a gameplan to me. But you intramural guys understand this gameplan stuff extremely well so I digress.


I am starting to think the term game plan just isn't suited for this discussion. I mean anything could be a game plan. If I tell my players just play whatever they feel like, that is technically a game plan too. I mean, the plan would be no plan. We really shouldn't be caught in this vortex because it's really silly imo.

How about this, teams don't do anything out of the ordinary against David Lee. They guard him as they would guard any other power forward. Amare on the other hand, teams go more out of the ordinary when they're guarding him. I don't want to compare their raw stats for tonight because of the reasons I mentioned earlier, however if you watch the games it is obvious to everyone that the Raptors went more out of the ordinary when they were guarding Amare than the Rockets when guarding David Lee. That's pretty much all there is to it.


----------



## seifer0406

Sir Patchwork said:


> I'm done on this topic until next time, but David Lee made Luis Scola look like Karl Malone tonight. 36 pts, 16 rebs, 14/24fg. Damn.


To be fair Lee didn't guard Scola all night. If he did chances are Scola would be in that other thread about who's the first to break 50.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> How about this, teams don't do anything out of the ordinary against David Lee. * They guard him as they would guard any other power forward.* Amare on the other hand, teams go more out of the ordinary when they're guarding him. I don't want to compare their raw stats for tonight because of the reasons I mentioned earlier, however if you watch the games it is obvious to everyone that the Raptors went more out of the ordinary when they were guarding Amare than the Rockets when guarding David Lee. That's pretty much all there is to it.


How about that is pretty much the antithesis of my point and all logic. So basically you are saying they put no emphasis on how to guard Lee as an individual player. 

Basically in your opinion coaches just say "guard him like you would guard anyone, good luck". No gameplan, no breakdown of Lee as a player, no suggestions as to his strengths and weaknesses and how to exploit him, basically no individual player gameplan at all, just generic C strategy. Because who cares about the best player on the knicks right?

Sorry man but you are just flat out wrong. 

You clearly have a very poor understanding of how this all works and anyone agreeing with you does as well. Not worth my time continuing this. Peace.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> How about that is pretty much the antithesis of my point and all logic. So basically you are saying they put no emphasis on how to guard Lee as an individual player.
> 
> Basically in your opinion coaches just say "guard him like you would guard anyone, good luck". No gameplan, no breakdown of Lee as a player, no suggestions as to his strengths and weaknesses and how to exploit him, basically no individual player gameplan at all, just generic C strategy. Because who cares about the best player on the knicks right?


Looks like I gave you an apple and you gave me an apple orchard here. Who is saying that coaches don't break down Lee's game and all that?

I mean using your logic, teams must have done scouting reports on guys like Kevin Ollie and Rick Brunson. Not saying that never happened, but are you telling me that there are also specific guidelines on how you would guard those 2? It amazes me that after about 5 pages of this you still cannot grasp the difference between the norm and the other of ordinary.

The bottom line is when teams guard David Lee, they guard him straight up, man to man. And you're right, I've never played organized ball and I certainly have never been part of a NBA team. I don't know what they talk about in the locker rooms and how they plan against different player. What I do know is, when the games are played teams normally guard David Lee without double team, without collapsing defense. Amare on the other hand gets those treatments by opposing defenses. So call me an outsider for thinking that maybe, just maybe that Amare is a little bit tougher to guard.



> You clearly have a very poor understanding of how this all works and anyone agreeing with you does as well. Not worth my time continuing this. Peace.


Frankly you should've stopped about 5 pages ago bro. But who am I to stop anyone on this forum from looking like a complete fool.


----------



## Zei_Zao_LS

Any and every time I reply to Casey from here on out I will have to use this picture or similar one.










That said, I don't feed the trolls.


----------



## Tragedy

lol @ comparing lee as the third option man to Amare as the first option.

Like I said before whenever Amare got the ball he was faced with a double team on the low block. When he got the ball at the three point line he was guarded man, with another shading to double team, and a THIRD looking over. EVERY SINGLE TIME.

A lot of his shots were in and out from the perimeter, and many of his turnovers were due to poor passes into the post.

Wilson Chandler and other knicks got a lot of easy buckets due to the attention Amare was recieving, and there were way more open shots.

The only thing about Amare for me is, he's clearly a 4, and shouldn't play center. he doesn't go for offensive boards with fervor or attempt to block shots. But I understand why he's saving his knees.

But Lee? They don't try to give Lee the ball and have him make something happen. He's third option at BEST on that team. Ellis, Curry, then Lee.

Lee had a good game, and no one is saying Lee is a BAD player, it's just that he's not as good as Amare.

Right now the Knicks are Amare and whoever performs that night. Some nights it'll be Chandler, other nights Gallinari. If he gets a consistent number 2 out of those guys his opportunities will come easier and you'll see his FG% and PPG rise.

As of now he scored 19 points on 7-16 shooting with constant double teams. Lee's 17 points in single coverage - hell, Ellis scored 46 and Curry 24,so the defense was geared towards them - is not as impressive.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> Looks like I gave you an apple and you gave me an apple orchard here. Who is saying that coaches don't break down Lee's game and all that?
> 
> I mean using your logic, teams must have done scouting reports on guys like Kevin Ollie and Rick Brunson. Not saying that never happened, but are you telling me that there are also specific guidelines on how you would guard those 2? It amazes me that after about 5 pages of this you still cannot grasp the difference between the norm and the other of ordinary.
> 
> The bottom line is when teams guard David Lee, they guard him straight up, man to man. And you're right, I've never played organized ball and I certainly have never been part of a NBA team. I don't know what they talk about in the locker rooms and how they plan against different player. What I do know is, when the games are played teams normally guard David Lee without double team, without collapsing defense. Amare on the other hand gets those treatments by opposing defenses. So call me an outsider for thinking that maybe, just maybe that Amare is a little bit tougher to guard.
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly you should've stopped about 5 pages ago bro. But who am I to stop anyone on this forum from looking like a complete fool.


In regards to how teams gameplan against opposing players you clearly have no clue what you are talking about. You have outlined it here and admitted to it.

That is what I have been telling you guys but you refuse to just admit you have no clue what you are talking about. you all think you are experts even though your knowledge of the game is very limited.

At the risk of looking like a tool I won't go over my bball pedigree but I would be shocked if any of you guys have even close to the type of bball resume that I have. And that is what it boils down to really. You are talking from the casual fan perspective. Which means that Amare who is way more popular and exciting is going to be in most of your minds the far better player. And its hard to argue with people like you because you dont understand the simple concepts of the game and yet are still in the majority. So whatever, spin every game however you want. Im going to pump the brakes on posting here as it really is boring arguing with people who don't understand the game as well as the 10 year old version of me.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> In regards to how teams gameplan against opposing players you clearly have no clue what you are talking about. You have outlined it here and admitted to it.
> 
> That is what I have been telling you guys but you refuse to just admit you have no clue what you are talking about. you all think you are experts even though your knowledge of the game is very limited.


And yet you cannot point out what part of my post isn't accurate. Do you not agree that when a player gets double teamed he is considered a better offensive player than someone who isn't double teamed? Do you not agree that teams only collapse their defense on players who are superb offensively?

I mean really, instead of making a blanket statement such as "I play ball, so I know more about ball than you" and sounding like a complete idiot, why not use your supposed knowledge about basketball and explain to me why a team would double team a guy when he isn't as good as the next guy who they do not double team. Explain to me why teams collapse defense on Amare and not David Lee.

Just to add to how ridiculous your notion sounds, do you not feel that theres a teeny, tiny chance that perhaps someone out there who plays organized ball, say the NBA, that would agree more to our side of the argument than yours? I mean at the very least the entire Knicks organization felt that Amare is the better player than David Lee or else they wouldn't have made the change. So in your eyes are their views considered more knowledgeable than your views? Are they better than the 10 year old version of you?

Really, I'm beginning to think that if you sound like half an idiot in terms of basketball after doing whatever it is that you did playing ball, one can only imagine what type of idiot you would sound like (basketball-wise) had you not had the experience.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> Really, I'm beginning to think that if you sound like half an idiot in terms of basketball after doing whatever it is that you did playing ball, one can only imagine what type of idiot you would sound like (basketball-wise) had you not had the experience.


I just deleted like a page long response to your post detailing my resume in basketball and the people and coaches that I know and regularly discuss basketball with. Because it made me sound like a douche. I've made that mistake a bit before but this would have been an even greater catastrophe.

Basically what I am trying to convey is that in terms of basketball this forum is your world. It's not mine. I am actively involved in the real world of basketball I have participated in at a reasonably high level, Ive coached at a reasonably high level, I know a lot of guys at all levels and routinely discuss basketball in depth on a much higher level than what goes on here. And in that world I am highly respected. Not here but big deal. I try to discuss things on here as well because I love talking about the game. But it just doesn't work because almost none of you guys really have a solid understanding of the game. It's just a fact.

So no i won't go over your posts in detail anymore, because what's the point? You are convinced you know the game better than me, why would you listen to an "idiot" when your an expert? You know more than me right? Cool. In real life I'm a nice guy and I guarantee you if we actually ran across each other playing basketball I would take the time to teach you about the game and try to make you a better player, and you would probably listen to everything I had to say and learn a lot from it. But here you know more than me because we are all sitting behind computers typing.


----------



## caseyrh

One last thing. And I have given up being snarky on here at least for as long as I can exert self-control. Trying to be nice now.

Seifer0406:
You are in Vancouver right?

If your close to Simon Frasier University do me a favor and go check them out. This year they are going to be the first NCAA men's basketball team in Canada. And I know the Head coach there really well, just recently I met with him and his coaching staff and it sounds like he is starting to build a real solid foundation there. They are probably going to struggle for a couple years but I think they are going to be real good in a relatively small period of time. There coach is a real grinder and will get talent there. 

Check them out this is their first year and It would be cool to get in on the ground floor of a local team for a program that unique. Their first game is at home november 5th.

no more bad blood with any of you guys. Peace.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> I just deleted like a page long response to your post detailing my resume in basketball and the people and coaches that I know and regularly discuss basketball with. Because it made me sound like a douche. I've made that mistake a bit before but this would have been an even greater catastrophe.


So let me get this straight, after reading the last page talking about how playing organized ball shouldn't eliminate the need for someone to actually make a point, you decided to write a basketball resume instead of actually defending your basketball view? How does that help your argument? You wouldn't sound like a douche had you done that, you would sound like a complete idiot who can't follow a discussion.

Let me break it down to you why listing your basketball accomplishments wouldn't help you in a discussion such as this. Listen closely, you might learn something. I might not be much of a basketball player but from my interactions with you it seems that I have a lot more common sense than you seem to have.

Here it is.
*
You are not the only one who has played organized ball to have an opinion in this issue.*

Take a deep breath and let it sink in. Because while I may not be a basketball player, there are other basketball players that convey a similar view point that I carry. "Amare is a better player than David Lee" isn't a discussion that just exists between me and you. 

I mean really, don't you think that at some point in time the Knicks FO have asked themselves who's the better player between the 2? Don't you think someone in there has better basketball minds than you do or at least qualified to be on par with you? Do you still don't see why your angle sounds retarded?

I'm not even saying whether you're right or wrong regarding Lee vs. Amare, the fact that you consider the opposite opinion to be less credible than yours is just lacking common sense.



> So no i won't go over your posts in detail anymore, because what's the point? You are convinced you know the game better than me, why would you listen to an "idiot" when your an expert? You know more than me right? Cool. In real life I'm a nice guy and I guarantee you if we actually ran across each other playing basketball I would take the time to teach you about the game and try to make you a better player, and you would probably listen to everything I had to say and learn a lot from it. But here you know more than me because we are all sitting behind computers typing.


So far you don't sound like you can hold a real conversation. If you're going to make a basketball related point and all you can say to back it up is "I've played organized ball" I really don't know what there is to talk about. Just hope that you never run into an argument with someone who's "at your level" because you would really sound dumb when the only thing that you know how to say is taken away.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> One last thing. And I have given up being snarky on here at least for as long as I can exert self-control. Trying to be nice now.
> 
> Seifer0406:
> You are in Vancouver right?
> 
> If your close to Simon Frasier University do me a favor and go check them out. This year they are going to be the first NCAA men's basketball team in Canada. And I know the Head coach there really well, just recently I met with him and his coaching staff and it sounds like he is starting to build a real solid foundation there. They are probably going to struggle for a couple years but I think they are going to be real good in a relatively small period of time. There coach is a real grinder and will get talent there.
> 
> Check them out this is their first year and It would be cool to get in on the ground floor of a local team for a program that unique. Their first game is at home november 5th.
> 
> no more bad blood with any of you guys. Peace.


lol, that's really all I have to say. If we ever have the biggest douche contest on this forum I'll make sure to nominate you for that award.

Let me drive to SFU to ask him whether David Lee is better than Amare.


----------



## seifer0406

ok I'm back. I asked him the question and he thought I was crazy so he maced me and had security escort me out. I can barely type now because I'm partially blind.

Thanks.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> So let me get this straight, after reading the last page talking about how playing organized ball shouldn't eliminate the need for someone to actually make a point, you decided to write a basketball resume instead of actually defending your basketball view? How does that help your argument? You wouldn't sound like a douche had you done that, you would sound like a complete idiot who can't follow a discussion.
> 
> Let me break it down to you why listing your basketball accomplishments wouldn't help you in a discussion such as this. Listen closely, you might learn something. I might not be much of a basketball player but from my interactions with you it seems that I have a lot more common sense than you seem to have.
> 
> Here it is.
> *
> You are not the only one who has played organized ball to have an opinion in this issue.*
> 
> Take a deep breath and let it sink in. Because while I may not be a basketball player, there are other basketball players that convey a similar view point that I carry. "Amare is a better player than David Lee" isn't a discussion that just exists between me and you.
> 
> I mean really, don't you think that at some point in time the Knicks FO have asked themselves who's the better player between the 2? Don't you think someone in there has better basketball minds than you do or at least qualified to be on par with you? Do you still don't see why your angle sounds retarded?
> 
> I'm not even saying whether you're right or wrong regarding Lee vs. Amare, the fact that you consider the opposite opinion to be less credible than yours is just lacking common sense.
> 
> 
> 
> So far you don't sound like you can hold a real conversation. If you're going to make a basketball related point and all you can say to back it up is "I've played organized ball" I really don't know what there is to talk about. Just hope that you never run into an argument with someone who's "at your level" because you would really sound dumb when the only thing that you know how to say is taken away.


At this point it's not even about who is better between Amare and Lee. Yeah I realize that there can be a solid arguement for both sides and that both basketball geniuses and basketball retards could share an opinion on the matter.

But what you are asking me to do is break down how teams gameplan for one other, or the complexities of guarding specific players. When I have attempted to answer you have blown off my responses, to those more detailed ideas. Which is separate from simply whos better.

Its tough to discuss how you gameplan for teams and players with someone who has never experienced it and clearly has an incorrect idea of how it goes down and yet believes firmly in his ignorance.
I can tell you that you are wrong but you believe you know something about that which you don't.

So if you didn't get it, I wasn't pointing out that I know better about a player comparison between Amare and Lee because i played and coached. But that I know more about how teams gameplan for one another. Which you seem to not realize is what we have been discussing. It was simply me telling you about something which you clearly have no idea and I do. But why let truth get in the way of you spinning something to formulate a point based on nothing?


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> lol, that's really all I have to say. If we ever have the biggest douche contest on this forum I'll make sure to nominate you for that award.
> 
> Let me drive to SFU to ask him whether David Lee is better than Amare.


Really I was trying to be nice. I thought since you were in Vancouver it might be worth your while to get in on the ground floor of a local program. Not sure how that was so offensive to you. I guess your really sensitive. Sorry if i hurt your feelings?


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> But what you are asking me to do is break down how teams gameplan for one other, or the complexities of guarding specific players. When I have attempted to answer you have blown off my responses, to those more detailed ideas. Which is separate from simply whos better.


Actually no. I'm lazy to type out what I wanted to ask you so just scroll up and read my previous posts. Nobody is asking you to go through a team's daily routine because honestly what would that do for this discussion.



> So if you didn't get it, I wasn't pointing out that I know better about a player comparison between Amare and Lee because i played and coached. But that I know more about how teams gameplan for one another. Which you seem to not realize is what we have been discussing. It was simply me telling you about something which you clearly have no idea and I do. But why let truth get in the way of you spinning something to formulate a point based on nothing?


Which is fascinating, but again, adds nothing to this discussion. All I am asking is for you to defend your points and counter the points that others have made in this thread. And by defending I mean with actual reasonings rather than "I know more than you because I played ball". As far as I can tell nobody in this thread has made a point that has never been made before by somebody who's considered to be a basketball mind. Thus it makes sense for you to accept the guy's opinion to be valid rather than just brush it off as an opinion by a basketball outsider.



> Really I was trying to be nice. I thought since you were in Vancouver it might be worth your while to get in on the ground floor of a local program. Not sure how that was so offensive to you. I guess your really sensitive. Sorry if i hurt your feelings?


Normally it would sound nice, but after our recent discussions this sounds extremely douchy. Sorry, but you just come off to be a total douche. I'm not being sensitive or anything, that's just how it is.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> And by defending I mean with actual reasonings rather than "I know more than you because I played ball".


Which is something I never actually did. The only reason this got brought up in the first place, was because in the discussion about who was better you and others here attempted to make a point that centered around Lee getting stats because teams don't bother to gameplan for the knicks because of how bad they are and even that teams don't watch game film on him or guard him any differently then they would guard other generic big men. This point is invalid and I know that because I have actually been a part of this on a college level and know guys that do this on the pro level. So I know that you and others making that point are factually incorrect. I thought I would bring up my experience on the matter as a counter point to something that I know first-handed is blatantly false.

That's all dude. But it suits your argument better to try and mock my real world experience, and try and twist my words to a purpose that suits your argument.


> As far as I can tell nobody in this thread has made a point that has never been made before by somebody who's considered to be a basketball mind. Thus it makes sense for you to accept the guy's opinion to be valid rather than just brush it off as an opinion by a basketball outsider.


Im not sure what you are referring to specifically. If it has to do with teams not preparing for the knicks in depth than I know that is simply not true. Why would I respect the opinion of someone else when I know that opinion to be incorrect? 


> Normally it would sound nice, but after our recent discussions this sounds extremely douchy. Sorry, but you just come off to be a total douche. I'm not being sensitive or anything, that's just how it is.


That's fine dude, I don't think to highly of you either. I was just trying to be nice to someone who is apparently a die hard basketball fan. I thought that if I was a huge bball fan and lived in vancouver that I might be interested in the local college team that is going to be the first NCAA team in all of canada. And the fact that I am good friends with the coach made me think of it, when I noticed where you were from and I was trying to think of a way to smooth things over with you. As it is clearly not worth anyones time to sit and argue over the internet, with people we do not know.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> Which is something I never actually did. The only reason this got brought up in the first place, was because in the discussion about who was better you and others here attempted to make a point that centered around Lee getting stats because teams don't bother to gameplan for the knicks because of how bad they are and even that teams don't watch game film on him or guard him any differently then they would guard other generic big men. This point is invalid and I know that because I have actually been a part of this on a college level and know guys that do this on the pro level. So I know that you and others making that point are factually incorrect. I thought I would bring up my experience on the matter as a counter point to something that I know first-handed is blatantly false.


I don't see why you're backtracking now because we've clearly went over this about 2 pages ago. I have already addressed that it is bad idea to use the term "game planning" the way we're using it because it doesn't really apply to the discussion. We should rather look at why teams handle Amare differently than how they handle David Lee. This is under the pre-notion that teams do not double team and collapse defense on any opposing big man. I've asked repeatedly about why teams double team Amare but not David Lee and I've asked about 2-3 other questions along those lines that you haven't yet address. So go back, read them and give a response. Nobody is interested in your basketball credentials, we're more interested in the actual points that you can make with the apparent basketball knowledge that you claim to have.



> Im not sure what you are referring to specifically. If it has to do with teams not preparing for the knicks in depth than I know that is simply not true. Why would I respect the opinion of someone else when I know that opinion to be incorrect?


I'm talking about the thought process that you seem to carry. Which is "I know more about basketball than you so therefore whatever you say that is different from what I say should be deemed as a lesser opinion." I'm saying that whatever is said in this thread are all valid because they are points that are already made by people who are deemed qualified using your standards. They are not points that are only shared by the "lesser minds" in terms of basketball knowledge.

And I know you're still caught up in the "Teams don't watch films and prepare when they're playing against the Knicks" vortex. It's obvious that whoever said that didn't mean it in the literal sense. As I've said, teams would even have scouting reports for Brian Scalabrine and Mark Madsen, what does that tell you? Not saying that players would pay too much attention to the details on guarding Scalabrine and Madsen but I'm sure there are some info on those 2 that are made available when needed. It's not that they don't prepare for David Lee, it's that they don't employ defensive strategies that they use against elite level scorers. That includes double teams, collapsing defense, so on and so forth.



> That's fine dude, I don't think to highly of you either. I was just trying to be nice to someone who is apparently a die hard basketball fan. I thought that if I was a huge bball fan and lived in vancouver that I might be interested in the local college team that is going to be the first NCAA team in all of canada. And the fact that I am good friends with the coach made me think of it, when I noticed where you were from and I was trying to think of a way to smooth things over with you. As it is clearly not worth anyones time to sit and argue over the internet, with people we do not know.


I don't see the point for you to "smooth things" out with me. I don't know you and you don't know me. We're discussing an issue over the internet, let's just stick with that.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> I don't see why you're backtracking now because we've clearly went over this about 2 pages ago. I have already addressed that it is bad idea to use the term "game planning" the way we're using it because it doesn't really apply to the discussion. We should rather look at why teams handle Amare differently than how they handle David Lee. This is under the pre-notion that teams do not double team and collapse defense on any opposing big man. I've asked repeatedly about why teams double team Amare but not David Lee and I've asked about 2-3 other questions along those lines that you haven't yet address. So go back, read them and give a response. Nobody is interested in your basketball credentials, we're more interested in the actual points that you can make with the apparent basketball knowledge that you claim to have.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm talking about the thought process that you seem to carry. Which is "I know more about basketball than you so therefore whatever you say that is different from what I say should be deemed as a lesser opinion." I'm saying that whatever is said in this thread are all valid because they are points that are already made by people who are deemed qualified using your standards. They are not points that are only shared by the "lesser minds" in terms of basketball knowledge.
> 
> And I know you're still caught up in the "Teams don't watch films and prepare when they're playing against the Knicks" vortex. It's obvious that whoever said that didn't mean it in the literal sense. As I've said, teams would even have scouting reports for Brian Scalabrine and Mark Madsen, what does that tell you? Not saying that players would pay too much attention to the details on guarding Scalabrine and Madsen but I'm sure there are some info on those 2 that are made available when needed. It's not that they don't prepare for David Lee, it's that they don't employ defensive strategies that they use against elite level scorers. That includes double teams, collapsing defense, so on and so forth.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see the point for you to "smooth things" out with me. I don't know you and you don't know me. We're discussing an issue over the internet, let's just stick with that.



bottomline is that teams did in fact double team Lee when he was on the knicks, because he was the best offensive player on the team. Lee might have even received more defensive attention last year because of his status as the clear cut best offensive player on his team, while Amare was only the second best offensive player on his team. 

Lee will get less attention this year and Amare will get more as their respective roles have changed.

See I reject your whole point. Do you get it? You are presenting something as fact that I don't agree with all this time I have been trying to point out the error in your reasoning.

BUt you know what it doesn't matter. Because you guys are so firmly attached to this notion that Amare is always doubled and Lee is never doubled that it doesn't matter how i counter the argument.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> bottomline is that teams did in fact double team Lee when he was on the knicks, because he was the best offensive player on the team. Lee might have even received more defensive attention last year because of his status as the clear cut best offensive player on his team, while Amare was only the second best offensive player on his team.
> 
> Lee will get less attention this year and Amare will get more as their respective roles have changed.
> 
> See I reject your whole point. Do you get it? You are presenting something as fact that I don't agree with all this time I have been trying to point out the error in your reasoning.
> 
> BUt you know what it doesn't matter. Because you guys are so firmly attached to this notion that Amare is always doubled and Lee is never doubled that it doesn't matter how i counter the argument.


I can't say I'm too impressed with your answer. I was expecting something ground shattering coming from a basketball expert like yourself.

So after all this blabbering your point is essentially that David Lee received more if not the same amount of double teams/defensive attention last year as a Knick than Amare did last year as a Sun. Is that your final answer? Am I missing anything?

Before we go any further do you agree or disagree that when a player is double teamed and have opposing defense collapse on him he is likely a more superb offensive player than a guy that doesn't receive such treatment from opposing defense. Are we in agreement on this?

I'll let you response to this before I go on with what I want to say.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

caseyrh said:


> bottomline is that teams did in fact double team Lee when he was on the knicks, because he was the best offensive player on the team.


Maybe this is where you're going wrong. You don't double team a player just because he is _the best player on the team_. 

Basically, a double team puts your team at a disadvantage because you're leaving someone open. Therefore you try to avoid it. If a team has 5 players who aren't going to consistently score on single coverage (Knicks last year), then you play straight up. It doesn't make sense to just double team someone for the hell of it and purposely put yourself at a disadvantage. That's just dumb basketball. 

The Celtics even decided to play Dwight Howard single coverage in the playoffs. They didn't think Dwight could score Perkins often enough to justify giving up open three pointers to high percentage shooters. 

Double teaming is a tool used when a player can create a higher percentage shot for himself against single coverage, than his teammate can with some space. Example: A team would rather give Bruce Bowen an open jumpshot, than let Tim Duncan go 1 on 1 with his defender. 

Apply this to Amare and Lee...Teams would rather give an open/slightly contested outside shot, than to let Amare work 1 on 1. Lee does not pose this kind of threat. Teams can watch an equal amount of film on him and Amare, and still conclude that the cost of double teaming him is greater than the cost of playing him single coverage. He can't create good enough opportunities for himself against single coverage to justify leaving a guy wide open just to get the ball out of his hands. With Amare, the cost of letting him work 1 on 1 is greater.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

I hate to sound condescending, but it baffles me that you don't see the stark difference in the way they're defended on the basketball court. It's night and day.


----------



## seifer0406

Sir Patchwork said:


> Apply this to Amare and Lee...Teams would rather give an open/slightly contested outside shot, than to let Amare work 1 on 1. Lee does not pose this kind of threat. Teams can watch an equal amount of film on him and Amare, and still conclude that the cost of double teaming him is greater than the cost of playing him single coverage. He can't create good enough opportunities for himself against single coverage to justify leaving a guy wide open just to get the ball out of his hands. With Amare, the cost of letting him work 1 on 1 is greater.


I believe that he feels whatever type of attention that Amare gets, whether it be double teams or more, David Lee gets as well. I think he has already conceded that a guy who gets double teamed should be considered more as a offensive threat than someone who doesn't get double teamed.

That's what I got out of it anyway, unless he wants to change his stance on that as well.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> I can't say I'm too impressed with your answer. I was expecting something ground shattering coming from a basketball expert like yourself.
> 
> So after all this blabbering your point is essentially that David Lee received more if not the same amount of double teams/defensive attention last year as a Knick than Amare did last year as a Sun. Is that your final answer? Am I missing anything?


Yeah that's my final answer. 


> Before we go any further do you agree or disagree that when a player is double teamed and have opposing defense collapse on him he is likely a more superb offensive player than a guy that doesn't receive such treatment from opposing defense. Are we in agreement on this?
> 
> I'll let you response to this before I go on with what I want to say.


In it's simplest form the more defensive attention a player gets the more important that player is to his teams offense.

For example as an avid bulls fan I can tell you that Rose gets as much defensive attention as anybody in the NBA. That doesn't mean he is the best offensive player in the league but it does mean that he is equally as important to the bulls as any other player is to their team on the offensive end.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> I hate to sound condescending, but it baffles me that you don't see the stark difference in the way they're defended on the basketball court. It's night and day.


It balles you that I don't agree with your opinion?

It baffles me that you are capable of viewing this as such a black and white issue.

Just think about it for a second think of what Lee meant to his teams offense vs what Amare meant to his teams.

Is it such an enormous gap that it is baffling to assume that these players were not treated similarly?

Really?


----------



## E.H. Munro

David Lee is a garbageman, opponents didn't doubleteam him.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> Maybe this is where you're going wrong. You don't double team a player just because he is _the best player on the team_.
> 
> Basically, a double team puts your team at a disadvantage because you're leaving someone open. Therefore you try to avoid it. If a team has 5 players who aren't going to consistently score on single coverage (Knicks last year), then you play straight up. It doesn't make sense to just double team someone for the hell of it and purposely put yourself at a disadvantage. That's just dumb basketball.
> 
> The Celtics even decided to play Dwight Howard single coverage in the playoffs. They didn't think Dwight could score Perkins often enough to justify giving up open three pointers to high percentage shooters.
> 
> Double teaming is a tool used when a player can create a higher percentage shot for himself against single coverage, than his teammate can with some space. Example: A team would rather give Bruce Bowen an open jumpshot, than let Tim Duncan go 1 on 1 with his defender.
> 
> Apply this to Amare and Lee...Teams would rather give an open/slightly contested outside shot, than to let Amare work 1 on 1. Lee does not pose this kind of threat. Teams can watch an equal amount of film on him and Amare, and still conclude that the cost of double teaming him is greater than the cost of playing him single coverage. He can't create good enough opportunities for himself against single coverage to justify leaving a guy wide open just to get the ball out of his hands. With Amare, the cost of letting him work 1 on 1 is greater.


this is all just an ill-informed opinion.

For example as we all should know Nash is one of the all-time great shooters. Maybe even the best shooter of all time. Now when Amare sets a screen for Nash what does the defender guarding Nash do?

He goes over the screen, meaning Amare's man must show on Nash otherwise Nash gets a wide open J. Which obviously nobody wants to give up. This gives Amare a period of time where _nobody_ is guarding him.

And of course this is where Amare gets a big chunk of his points.


----------



## caseyrh

E.H. Munro said:


> David Lee is a garbageman, opponents didn't doubleteam him.


a garbage man that led the nba at his position in assists?


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> In it's simplest form the more defensive attention a player gets the more important that player is to his teams offense.


But that's not what we're talking about here. We're not discussing whether or not Amare gets the most defensive attention on his team and equating that to David Lee getting the most attention on last year's Knicks squad. Theres no point to do so because the Knicks were a far less talented team offensively than the Suns.




> For example as an avid bulls fan I can tell you that Rose gets as much defensive attention as anybody in the NBA. That doesn't mean he is the best offensive player in the league but it does mean that he is equally as important to the bulls as any other player is to their team on the offensive end.


I really don't see the point of this statement. Take the Raptors for example, now that Bosh is gone Bargnani gets the most defensive attention on the Raptors. Does that elevate his stock as a offensive player just because theres less talent on the Raptors? That's not the point and it's not relevant to this discussion.

But back to Amare. Now that you have made the statement that you feel that David Lee sees as much double team as Amare, I would like to know what have you done to gather this information. I know you dislike people asking you whether or not you've watched the games, but for lack of better ways of finding out whether a player gets double teamed on a regular basis, how many Knicks/Suns games did you watch last year? Because contrary to what the Knicks fans that have chimed in in this thread, Lee didn't get double teamed that often last year. If any Suns fans would like to add to this, I would like to know the opinion of a Suns fan of how Amare was treated last year. 

I would go by my own opinion because I've watched plenty of Suns games over the past 3 years but I doubt you would want the opinion of someone who's never played organized basketball.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> But that's not what we're talking about here. We're not discussing whether or not Amare gets the most defensive attention on his team and equating that to David Lee getting the most attention on last year's Knicks squad. Theres no point to do so because the Knicks were a far less talented team offensively than the Suns.


You clearly can't figure out how this is relevant to the discussion. It's a very simple concept.





> I really don't see the point of this statement. Take the Raptors for example, now that Bosh is gone Bargnani gets the most defensive attention on the Raptors. Does that elevate his stock as a offensive player just because theres less talent on the Raptors? That's not the point and it's not relevant to this discussion.


It's relevant because even though their are players that are quite a bit better offensiveley then Rose he still got treated like he was the best, due to his role on his team and the unusually huge disparity between him as an offensive threat and his teamates. Get it?

So see even if your correct that Amare is a vastly superior offensive player to Lee it still doesn't mean they didn't receive similar defensive attention due to their roles on their respective teams.



> But back to Amare. Now that you have made the statement that you feel that David Lee sees as much double team as Amare, I would like to know what have you done to gather this information. I know you dislike people asking you whether or not you've watched the games, but for lack of better ways of finding out whether a player gets double teamed on a regular basis, how many Knicks/Suns games did you watch last year? Because contrary to what the Knicks fans that have chimed in in this thread, Lee didn't get double teamed that often last year. If any Suns fans would like to add to this, I would like to know the opinion of a Suns fan of how Amare was treated last year.


I'm not sure how much research would appease you. But I probably watched about 6 suns and 6 Knicks games last year. Basically I watch the majority of Lakers games, every Bulls games and quite a few of the nationally televised games every year. I am well aware of their games. But if my 5 year old daughter had watched every knicks game and every suns game would that make her opinion more valid then mine?




> I would go by my own opinion because I've watched plenty of Suns games over the past 3 years but I doubt you would want the opinion of someone who's never played organized basketball.


Honestly from the posts of yours that I can remember your opinions seem pretty worthless to me. I can think of a few times where your opinions stood out as particularly bad. It might have something to do with you having a very poor understanding of the game, likely due to you never playing it.


----------



## Tom

neither can play defense so they hold no value in the league.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> It's relevant because even though their are players that are quite a bit better offensiveley then Rose he still got treated like he was the best, due to his role on his team and the unusually huge disparity between him as an offensive threat and his teamates. Get it?


Actually you're missing the point by quite a big margin. Nobody is refuting the fact that David Lee was the best offensive player on his team and received the most defensive attention compare to his fellow Knick players. What we are arguing about is the type of defensive attention he did receive as the top offensive option as a Knick, which as previous Knick fans have pointed out doesn't involve constant double teams. Amare on the other hand, did receive double teams on a regular basis, in fact, even now that he's the best offensive option on a Knick squad that supposedly have improved their overall offense chances are he will be getting more double teams than Lee got last year.



> I'm not sure how much research would appease you. But I probably watched about 6 suns and 6 Knicks games last year. Basically I watch the majority of Lakers games, every Bulls games and quite a few of the nationally televised games every year. I am well aware of their games. But if my 5 year old daughter had watched every knicks game and every suns game would that make her opinion more valid then mine?


If she recognizes what a double team looks like then sure, it would be more valid than yours in terms of knowing whether or not Amare or Lee got double teamed. In fact, if there is a way to train a monkey or a dog to recognize double teams, their opinion would be more valid than yours considering that you have no way to find out whether or not a guy gets consistently double teamed without actually watching the games. Of course, that doesn't include actually listen to people that did watch the games, which you seem to be unwilling to do.



> Honestly from the posts of yours that I can remember your opinions seem pretty worthless to me. I can think of a few times where your opinions stood out as particularly bad. It might have something to do with you having a very poor understanding of the game, likely due to you never playing it.


Ouch, that hurts. Hey, I guess I have that coming seeing that I called you an idiot and a douche a handful of times. But really, I am willing to admit that a Knicks fan's observation on David Lee would be more valid than my own because they've seen more of him. You obviously feels that because you're the only person that's ever played organized ball, you are the only one capable of telling if a guy is getting double teamed.


----------



## Tragedy

caseyrh said:


> bottomline is that teams did in fact double team Lee when he was on the knicks, because he was the best offensive player on the team. Lee might have even received more defensive attention last year because of his status as the clear cut best offensive player on his team, while Amare was only the second best offensive player on his team.
> 
> Lee will get less attention this year and Amare will get more as their respective roles have changed.
> 
> See I reject your whole point. Do you get it? You are presenting something as fact that I don't agree with all this time I have been trying to point out the error in your reasoning.
> 
> BUt you know what it doesn't matter. Because you guys are so firmly attached to this notion that Amare is always doubled and Lee is never doubled that it doesn't matter how i counter the argument.


What? David Lee was BARELY double teamed. You're making this assumption based clearly on statistics. Oh if Amare had Nash, then he was doubled less because Lee had no one, despite the fact - FACT David Lee was able to get his 20per game. 

No one is saying teams don't prepare, and don't watch video on opposing players, but the amount of stuff they did for the Knicks with Lee is far less than it will be for Amare.

You need to look no further than last night to see the double and triple teams Amare was drawing. but that doesn't matter to you because you don't deal with facts, you just make up what you think happened.


----------



## E.H. Munro

caseyrh said:


> a garbage man that led the nba at his position in assists?


You mean a garbageman that averaged three assists a game? Yes. (Leaving aside the fact that Josh Smith & Boris Diaw, also PFs averaged more assists per game.)


----------



## seifer0406

E.H. Munro said:


> You mean a garbageman that averaged three assists a game? Yes. (Leaving aside the fact that Josh Smith & Boris Diaw, also PFs averaged more assists per game.)


I think he counts David Lee as a center.


----------



## E.H. Munro

seifer0406 said:


> I think he counts David Lee as a center.


I guess if you count him as a center you could make the claim. In any event, about the only time Lee saw two defenders in front of him was after someone else fired up a shot and opposing defenses would try to keep him from crashing the boards.


----------



## caseyrh

E.H. Munro said:


> I guess if you count him as a center you could make the claim. In any event, about the only time Lee saw two defenders in front of him was after someone else fired up a shot and opposing defenses would try to keep him from crashing the boards.


http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/assists/sort/avgAssists/year/2010/position/centers

follow the link my friend.


----------



## caseyrh

E.H. Munro said:


> You mean a garbageman that averaged three assists a game? Yes. (Leaving aside the fact that Josh Smith & Boris Diaw, also PFs averaged more assists per game.)


3.6 rounds to 4 not 3.


----------



## e-monk

any chance we can start a is Kobe Bryant better than Kevin Martin thread? (nice catch by shuerholtz! sorry)


----------



## E.H. Munro

caseyrh said:


> 3.6


In other words, less than four, as opposed to the two power forwards that averaged more than four. And he's still a garbageman. If you'd watched Knicks games you would have noticed it.


----------



## Tragedy

caseyrh said:


> 3.6 rounds to 4 not 3.


For all intents and purposes, 3.6 stays at 3.6.

It's also not really good considering he needs 6 minutes more than tim duncan to beat him by .4, and he averages more turnovers.

Also, you obviously want to keep your agenda going, because you don't even want to look at my replies and speak on it.


----------



## e-monk

just run a per minute boys and stop swinging them tiny things around


----------



## Sir Patchwork

e-monk said:


> just run a per minute boys and stop swinging them tiny things around


You clearly never played organized basketball.


----------



## e-monk

Sir Patchwork said:


> You clearly never played organized basketball.


maybe you mean past high school? just because Im a geek doest mean I wasnt riding a bench somewhere in division 3 when I was 16

following the thread of their 3.6 dithering the answer seems pretty clear, but you know, it's just math


----------



## caseyrh

Tragedy said:


> For all intents and purposes, 3.6 stays at 3.6.
> 
> It's also not really good considering he needs 6 minutes more than tim duncan to beat him by .4, and he averages more turnovers.
> 
> Also, you obviously want to keep your agenda going, because you don't even want to look at my replies and speak on it.



I have answered the same thing written by someone else multiple times now. Why is it important for me to answer your same old baseless argument?

But it is funny that you knock Lee for only slightly beating out TIM DUNCAN for the _leading_ assist man among all centers.

It just shows the blatant bias that is going on in this thread...

You guys will even attempt to make leading the league at your position in assists a negative. Because you only lead by .4 (which is actually a pretty large margin) Hilarious.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> You clearly never played organized basketball.


you never know. He might have played in college (intramural).


----------



## caseyrh

E.H. Munro said:


> In other words, less than four, as opposed to the two power forwards that averaged more than four. And he's still a garbageman. If you'd watched Knicks games you would have noticed it.


He didn't play PF last year. He played Center. Would you have preferred if I would have said he was the third best in assists among all Centers _and_ Power Forwards?

But really I wanted to point that out because I have noticed a lot of you guys tend to use dishonest arguments. 

You round numbers off however they suit you. In this case it was 3.6 down to 3. All I'm saying is if you want to round numbers off be honest with it. When rounding 3.6 it would go to 4.

Too much to ask???


----------



## e-monk

caseyrh said:


> you never know. He might have played in college (intramural).


well. that much is true and I truly enjoyed the co-ed intramural games - I was like Charles Oakley on those bitches


(and then I was arrested)


----------



## Sir Patchwork

caseyrh said:


> you never know. He might have played in college (intramural).


I'm sure he couldn't compete with your intramural teams.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> I'm sure he couldn't compete with your intramural teams.


I don't know... the intramural teams at my school were not that good. I'm sure you could have even continued playing on them past your sophomore year.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

caseyrh said:


> I don't know... the intramural teams at my school were not that good. I'm sure you could have even continued playing on them past your sophomore year.


It was either transfer and focus on my major (electrical engineering) or drop out and go play overseas for 35k over 8 months. I chose the former and feel like I made the right choice. We did have some nasty intramural teams though in my last couple years.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> It was either transfer and focus on my major (electrical engineering) or drop out and go play overseas for 35k over 8 months. I chose the former and feel like I made the right choice. We did have some nasty intramural teams though in my last couple years.


You actually played on a college basketball team? Nice. Congrats. 

Surprised your team didn't scout other teams, watch tape, and put just as much effort into gameplanning for all teams regardless of their record. We used to really try and focus on the best player on a team also. But I guess your experience was different.


----------



## zagsfan20

Sir Patchwork said:


> It was either transfer and focus on my major (electrical engineering) or drop out and go play overseas for 35k over 8 months. I chose the former and feel like I made the right choice. We did have some nasty intramural teams though in my last couple years.


Where'd you play? Or is it a secret?


----------



## rayz789

Look it's real simple Amare is a far better player then Lee. Whoever disagree are not true nba fans. Is Lee a better rebounder? Of course but that don't proved he's better. Amare gets way more attention then Lee has ever have. One guy say Amare never leads his team to the playoffs or something like that? Well somebody forgot that he took the suns to the playoffs as a rookie? And to this guy says Amare might be the 3rd fiddle behind Marion? <<<That comment shows he's dumber then Ron Artest.


----------



## caseyrh

rayz789 said:


> Look it's real simple Amare is a far better player then Lee. Whoever disagree are not true nba fans. Is Lee a better rebounder? Of course but that don't proved he's better. Amare gets way more attention then Lee has ever have. One guy say Amare never leads his team to the playoffs or something like that? Well somebody forgot that he took the suns to the playoffs as a rookie? And to this guy says Amare might be the 3rd fiddle behind Marion?


You forget how good Marion was. Oh and also he played defense and rebounded. But who cares about defense and rebounding right???



> <<<That comment shows he's dumber then Ron Artest.


After reading your post, I have come to the conclusion that you are throwing stones from a glass house.


----------



## E.H. Munro

But he is throwing them _at_ a glass house.


----------



## caseyrh

E.H. Munro said:


> But he is throwing them _at_ a glass house.


doesn't matter. Who wants to risk breaking their own house?


----------



## E.H. Munro

Mine is made of considerably sturdier stuff, so I don't worry about the stone throwers.


----------



## caseyrh

E.H. Munro said:


> Mine is made of considerably sturdier stuff, so I don't worry about the stone throwers.


Cool story.


----------



## Hyperion

Some of you guys are criminally underrating Lee. With that said, Amare is a better player right now. However, with the right coach, Lee could be better within a few years. I don't think that Lee is ridiculously overpaid. I think he is paid right where he should be. He is a very good hustle player who needs a lot of coaching to learn how to polish his game. 

With that said, Amare is the most efficient scoring big man in the NBA. He just doesn't rebound, block shots, hustle, or defend. Lee does all that much better than Amare. Yes I have seen Lee play, no he is not a good defender, but Amare is that much worse. Watch the Suns become a good defensive team this year.


----------



## Blue

Hyperion said:


> Watch the Suns become a good defensive team this year.


:50ha:


----------



## E.H. Munro

Hyperion said:


> Some of you guys are criminally underrating Lee. With that said, Amare is a better player right now. However, with the right coach, Lee could be better within a few years. I don't think that Lee is ridiculously overpaid. I think he is paid right where he should be. He is a very good hustle player who needs a lot of coaching to learn how to polish his game.
> 
> With that said, Amare is the most efficient scoring big man in the NBA. He just doesn't rebound, block shots, hustle, or defend. Lee does all that much better than Amare. Yes I have seen Lee play, no he is not a good defender, but Amare is that much worse. Watch the Suns become a good defensive team this year.


I don't see it. Lee lacks the size to defend the post or the concentration to be a primary help defender. He's sort of Al Jefferson's more energetic brother, he's good at the things he likes doing, but can't be bothered with anything else. Lee got to do a lot of number-padding last year with New York. He'll probably do some more this year with another cellar dweller. But I fully expect the Warriors to send him packing when they're finally ready to turn the corner.


----------



## zagsfan20

Hyperion said:


> Some of you guys are criminally underrating Lee. With that said, Amare is a better player right now. However, with the right coach, Lee could be better within a few years. I don't think that Lee is ridiculously overpaid. I think he is paid right where he should be. He is a very good hustle player who needs a lot of coaching to learn how to polish his game.
> 
> With that said, Amare is the most efficient scoring big man in the NBA. He just doesn't rebound, block shots, hustle, or defend. Lee does all that much better than Amare. Yes I have seen Lee play, no he is not a good defender, but Amare is that much worse. Watch the Suns become a good defensive team this year.


How is Amare the most efficient scoring big man in the league. Lee shot essentially the same percentage as him from the field.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Stoudemire's PP/FGA was much higher than Lee's, mostly because he draws more fouls.


----------



## Hyperion

zagsfan20 said:


> How is Amare the most efficient scoring big man in the league. Lee shot essentially the same percentage as him from the field.


TS%, FTA, impact. Lee would go to a line like twice a game while Amare would foul out the entire front line of the opposing team. That would allow Nash to go to work more since the bigs couldn't show as hard on PnRs. 

Lee and Amare essentially took the same number of FGs a game and made the same percentage yet Amare averaged FOUR more points than Lee a game in fewer minutes. That's really impressive. Lee is not a terrible player, he's a very good player that earned his contract with GS. Amare is just that good on offense. If only the rest of his game was as natural as his offense, he'd be a HOF lock already.


----------



## zagsfan20

zagsfan20 said:


> Where'd you play? Or is it a secret?


Must be a secret...


----------



## Sir Patchwork

zagsfan20 said:


> Must be a secret...


PM's.


----------



## rayz789

caseyrh said:


> You forget how good Marion was. Oh and also he played defense and rebounded. But who cares about defense and rebounding right???
> 
> *^^^If you tell that to many nba players or former players. Or even nba writers, they will call you a retarded nba fan that should follow other sports. Marion was a very good player but he was not the 2nd option behind Nash with the suns. Hell whyelse the suns didn't want to give Marion an extension? Amare was way better. I bet even Marion would say the same thing. For real follow other sports casay. *After reading your post, I have come to the conclusion that you are throwing stones from a glass house.




^^^After reading your response, it shows you don't know **** at all.


----------



## rayz789

Hyperion said:


> Some of you guys are criminally underrating Lee. With that said, Amare is a better player right now. However, with the right coach, Lee could be better within a few years. I don't think that Lee is ridiculously overpaid. I think he is paid right where he should be. He is a very good hustle player who needs a lot of coaching to learn how to polish his game.
> 
> With that said, Amare is the most efficient scoring big man in the NBA. He just doesn't rebound, block shots, hustle, or defend. Lee does all that much better than Amare. Yes I have seen Lee play, no he is not a good defender, but Amare is that much worse. Watch the Suns become a good defensive team this year.


How is Amare much worse on defense if he avg more blocks then Lee? lol. Both Lee and Amare are not very good defenders but if i have to choice which player to block a shot in a clutch situation then Amare is easily the pick over Lee. In offense Clutch situation, who you rather have to make a game winner? Amare? or Lee? And why you say Amare doesn't rebound? He avarage 9 rebounds per game in which some he gets 10 or more rebounds. If Amare is not a good rebounder then his rebound pergame will be the same as Eddy Curry.


----------



## caseyrh

rayz789 said:


> How is Amare much worse on defense if he avg more blocks then Lee? lol. Both Lee and Amare are not very good defenders but if i have to choice which player to block a shot in a clutch situation then Amare is easily the pick over Lee. In offense Clutch situation, who you rather have to make a game winner? Amare? or Lee? And why you say Amare doesn't rebound? He avarage 9 rebounds per game in which some he gets 10 or more rebounds. If Amare is not a good rebounder then his rebound pergame will be the same as Eddy Curry.


Come on guy. Are you really using the more blocks=better defense argument? Hilarious. 
Especially when the difference is .5 v 1. What if I countered with the (equally worthless) Lee gets more steals argument? 1 v .6. Terrible point.

And yes 9 rebounds per game is much worse than 12 rebounds per game.

You should have never even entered this conversation. You are clueless.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> PM's.


I want one.


----------



## rayz789

caseyrh said:


> Come on guy. Are you really using the more blocks=better defense argument? Hilarious.
> 
> 
> Especially when the difference is .5 v 1. What if I countered with the (equally worthless) Lee gets more steals argument? 1 v .6. Terrible point.
> 
> And yes 9 rebounds per game is much worse than 12 rebounds per game.
> 
> You should have never even entered this conversation. You are clueless.


I'm clueless? You trying to say Lee is better then Amare but i'm clueless? lol. You're the dumbest poster here in this forum. I've said that BOTH amare and lee are not very good defenders. The other guy say Amare defense is much worse then Lee in which is way wrong. Amare blocks per game is better then Lee. Put it this way if you look it up Amare got far more blocks then Lee then Lee has more steals then Amare. So you saying 9 rebounds per game is not good? Are you saying that his rebounds are the same as Curry?


----------



## caseyrh

rayz789 said:


> I'm clueless? You trying to say Lee is better then Amare but i'm clueless? lol. You're the dumbest poster here in this forum. I've said that BOTH amare and lee are not very good defenders. The other guy say Amare defense is much worse then Lee in which is way wrong. Amare blocks per game is better then Lee. Put it this way if you look it up Amare got far more blocks then Lee then Lee has more steals then Amare. So you saying 9 rebounds per game is not good? Are you saying that his rebounds are the same as Curry?


You really have no idea what you are talking about. No point in responding to this in any other way.


----------



## E.H. Munro

caseyrh said:


> You really have no idea what you are talking about. No point in responding to this in any other way.


Mr. Pot, please say hello to Mr. Kettle.


----------



## seifer0406

E.H. Munro said:


> Mr. Pot, please say hello to Mr. Kettle.


I heard once caseyrh met a guy who was in a wheelchair and casey shoo'd him off because he knew the guy has never played organized ball.

I bet Caseyrh feels that David Lee is better offensively than Dwight Howard. Lee averages more points than Howard and has twice as much assists than Howard. Lee also shoots freethrows at 80% compare to 60% for Howard, and we all know that Howard has no post moves. We know that Howard is better defensively, but offensively Lee is obviously superior.


----------



## caseyrh

Another lousy game for Amare.


----------



## jayk009

If you compare the individual aspects of the game, David Lee is better in more categories then Amare. 

Just saying...


----------



## jayk009

If David Lee is a product of a system, then how is Amare not? 

it's true Amare produced before Nash, but he was still playing run n gun. 

If you use this argument saying how David Lee's stats are inflated then you have to use the same argument for Amare. 


Not nesessarily saying Lee is the better player...but I think some of you guys just follow the herd, or you just think Amare is just better because he can score in a prettier way. Alot of players in history have been overrated because they could score, and casual uneducated fans will continue to do so. 

In the end I think David Lee is alot closer to Amare then alot of you posters make it out to be.


edit: Is there any other bigman in the league that is considered elite that wont automatically make their team into a winner? Put ANY elite big man and they're at least going to be a playoff team, Knicks will be considred overperforming to be a 8th seed in a weak east, I think this is really telling to how overrated Amare's impact is.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Neither of them are particularly good at defense. So that leaves us to judge them on their offensive merits, and Amar'e is a much more efficient scorer due to a more complete game. If Lee actually cared about defense maybe someone could rationally claim his superiority. But frankly he doesn't care about that end of the floor.


----------



## seifer0406

jayisthebest88 said:


> If David Lee is a product of a system, then how is Amare not?
> 
> it's true Amare produced before Nash, but he was still playing run n gun.
> 
> If you use this argument saying how David Lee's stats are inflated then you have to use the same argument for Amare.
> 
> 
> Not nesessarily saying Lee is the better player...but I think some of you guys just follow the herd, or you just think Amare is just better because he can score in a prettier way. Alot of players in history have been overrated because they could score, and casual uneducated fans will continue to do so.
> 
> In the end I think David Lee is alot closer to Amare then alot of you posters make it out to be.


We just spent about 8 pages discussing the differences between Lee and Amare. Did you not read any of that? To deduce this thread to "people following the herd because Amare scores prettier" is vastly inaccurate.

I've already said enough in this thread (stuff that are relevant anyway), and I really don't feel like repeating everything because someone refuses to read.


----------



## rayz789

seifer0406 said:


> I heard once caseyrh met a guy who was in a wheelchair and casey shoo'd him off because he knew the guy has never played organized ball.
> 
> *I bet Caseyrh feels that David Lee is better offensively than Dwight Howard. Lee averages more points than Howard and has twice as much assists than Howard. Lee also shoots freethrows at 80% compare to 60% for Howard, and we all know that Howard has no post moves. We know that Howard is better defensively, but offensively Lee is obviously superior*.


Just for the hell of it. Is this mean Lee is a better player then say Kg since he avg more points then him? And avg more assist?


----------



## rayz789

caseyrh said:


> Another lousy game for Amare.


I agree 8-17 with 18 points is very lousy.


----------



## rayz789

Hey casey, is Lee better then Dirk? Isn't Lee avg more rebounds, more blocks, more steals then Dirk?<<Does that mean Lee is better? 



Now you know why i said you're retarded.


----------



## rayz789

jayisthebest88 said:


> If David Lee is a product of a system, then how is Amare not?
> 
> it's true Amare produced before Nash, but he was still playing run n gun.
> 
> If you use this argument saying how David Lee's stats are inflated then you have to use the same argument for Amare.
> 
> 
> Not nesessarily saying Lee is the better player...but I think some of you guys just follow the herd, or you just think Amare is just better because he can score in a prettier way. Alot of players in history have been overrated because they could score, and casual uneducated fans will continue to do so.
> 
> In the end I think David Lee is alot closer to Amare then alot of you posters make it out to be.
> 
> 
> edit: Is there any other bigman in the league that is considered elite that wont automatically make their team into a winner? Put ANY elite big man and they're at least going to be a playoff team, *Knicks will be considred overperforming to be a 8th seed in a weak east, I think this is really telling to how overrated Amare's impact is.*



Are you saying The Western conference is way better then the eastern conference?


----------



## caseyrh

rayz789 said:


> I agree 8-17 with 18 points is very lousy.


you forgot the 5 rebounds and 6 turnovers. And yes I agree with you it was a lousy game.


----------



## caseyrh

E.H. Munro said:


> Neither of them are particularly good at defense. So that leaves us to judge them on their offensive merits, and Amar'e is a much more efficient scorer due to a more complete game. If Lee actually cared about defense maybe someone could rationally claim his superiority. But frankly he doesn't care about that end of the floor.


Rebounding and Passing


----------



## rayz789

caseyrh said:


> you forgot the 5 rebounds and 6 turnovers. And yes I agree with you it was a lousy game.


You forgot to answer this question moron>>


rayz789 said:


> Hey casey, is Lee better then Dirk? Isn't Lee avg more rebounds, more blocks, more steals then Dirk?<<Does that mean Lee is better?
> 
> 
> 
> Now you know why i said you're retarded.


----------



## rayz789

caseyrh said:


> Rebounding and Passing


Lee avg more rebounds, more blocks, more steals then Dirk. Is that mean Lee is better then Dirk?


----------



## caseyrh

rayz789 said:


> You forgot to answer this question moron>>


easy with the name calling guy. No one cares how tough you are behind the computer.

To answer your ridiculous question. No Lee is obviously not better than Dirk. Lee isn't even anything special. He is just better than Amare which is the point of this thread.


----------



## rayz789

caseyrh said:


> easy with the name calling guy. No one cares how tough you are behind the computer.
> 
> To answer your ridiculous question. *No Lee is obviously not better than Dirk. Lee isn't even anything special.* He is just better than Amare which is the point of this thread.


Wait hold up. You say Lee is better then Amare cause he rebounds more and has more assists correct? Well Lee has more rebounds, more blocks, more steals then Dirk. <<<So is this mean Lee is better then Dirk? <<I'm just going by the way you're saying about why Lee is better then Amare.


----------



## caseyrh

rayz789 said:


> *Is* that mean Lee is better then Dirk?


Does



> *Isn't* Lee avg more rebounds, more blocks, more steals then Dirk?


Doesn't



> *Is* this mean Lee is a better player then say Kg since he avg more points then him?


Does



> So *is* this mean Lee is better then Dirk?


does

Do you have some sort of endorsement deal with _is_? Mix in a _does_ every once in a while.


----------



## caseyrh

rayz789 said:


> Wait hold up. You say Lee is better then Amare cause he rebounds more and has more assists correct? Well Lee has more rebounds, more blocks, more steals then Dirk. <<<So is this mean Lee is better then Dirk? <<I'm just going by the way you're saying about why Lee is better then Amare.


Excellent post. What can I say... you got me there!!!

If I could I would put a smiley face on your helmet.


----------



## rayz789

caseyrh said:


> Does
> 
> 
> Doesn't
> 
> 
> Does
> 
> 
> 
> does
> 
> Do you have some sort of endorsement deal with _is_? Mix in a _does_ every once in a while.


So i assume you won't be answering my question right? Ok how about this. 



Lee avg more rebounds and more assist then Amare correct? Well Lee avg more rebounds, more blocks, more steals then Dirk. <<*Does* this means Lee is better then Dirk?


----------



## jayk009

lol at someone calling someone a retard and then saying "is that mean David Lee is better?"


----------



## seifer0406

Because you're obviously retarded if English isn't your first language.


----------



## ChosenFEW

i always find it ridiculous when people correct others grammer on message boards as a way to insult them..... meanwhile they're completely oblivious to the fact that people from around the world visit these forums.....

what a bunch of douches


----------



## Hyperion

ChosenFEW said:


> i always find it ridiculous when people correct others grammer on message boards as a way to insult them..... meanwhile they're completely oblivious to the fact that people from around the world visit these forums.....
> 
> what a bunch of douches


Grammar.

I agree with you. We should just stick to correcting each others' spelling.


----------



## Xeneise

Hyperion said:


> Grammar.
> 
> I agree with you. We should just stick to correcting each others' spelling.


:rotf:


----------



## caseyrh

I love how you guys are so sensitive to me correcting someones ridiculously bad grammar. When I only did it after the guy called me "retarded, moron, dumber than Ron Artest, and the Dumbest poster on here." All completely unprovoked by the way.

God forbid I correct the atrociously bad grammar of a guy that calls me retarded or something similar to that in almost every post he has made.

And Anyways how do we even know he is from another country, or that English is his second language? Has he ever said that?


----------



## Xeneise

rayz789 said:


> So i assume you won't be answering my question right? Ok how about this.
> 
> 
> 
> Lee avg more rebounds and more assist then Amare correct? Well Lee avg more rebounds, more blocks, more steals then Dirk. <<*Does* this means Lee is better then Dirk?


No it doesn't means that Lee is better.


----------



## E.H. Munro

caseyrh said:


> Rebounding and Passing


Set off against much more efficient scoring, the ability to draw fouls against opposing bigs and the ability to command a double team. Sorry, as both players only contribute on the offensive end, you have to go with the better offensive player, and it ain't Lee.


----------



## caseyrh

E.H. Munro said:


> Set off against much more efficient scoring, the ability to draw fouls against opposing bigs and the ability to command a double team. Sorry, as both players only contribute on the offensive end, you have to go with the better offensive player, and it ain't Lee.


Look even if we go with exactly your reasoning, is it so ridiculous to go with Lee as the better player?

Let's just say I agree with you and that defense is a wash, and that the rebounding and passing advantage of Lee is neutralized by Amare's advantage in drawing fouls and ability to draw a double team.

So then we are left with essentially this as the arguement

Lee 20 points on 54.5 shooting in a similar offense with Duhon at point.

Vs.

Amare at 23 ppg on 55.7 shooting. with Nash at pg.

So at the end of the day if we use your argument exactly as you want, we come up with a relatively minimal difference in scoring numbers as the reason you believe Amare is better.

You can't see how the argument could be considered from a slightly different angle in order for Lee to be the better player???


Like Maybe the huge advantage in rebounding and passing are not canceled out by the advantages that you feel Amare has?

It's like this is what your argument boils down to and yet you feel it is just completeley ridiculous for anyone to feel that Lee is better.

Come on. Amare is way overrated as a basketball player. Lee is certainly in the discussion.


----------



## E.H. Munro

caseyrh said:


> Look even if we go with exactly your reasoning, is it so ridiculous to go with Lee as the better player?


Yes, it is.

Amar'e PP/FGA 1.23 DrawnF% 19.6
D.Lee PP/FGA 1.16 DrawnF% 12.3

The reason that Amar'e draws so many more fouls is that he has an offensive game outside putbacks and transition buckets. Garbagemen just don't draw a lot of fouls. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, but you're comparing a garbageman that doesn't like playing defense to a pretty complete offensive player that doesn't like playing defense. If I have to choose between a guy that can swcore with ruthless efficiency on the blocks, and can score effectively out to three point range, I'm taking the guy that has the full arsenal. 

I'm not particularly fond of either player due to their lackadaisical approach to defense. The same reason that I'm not particularly fond of Al Jefferson. But Amar'e is better than Lee.


----------



## seifer0406

I see the "you've never played organized ball" argument coming in about 3 posts.


----------



## caseyrh

E.H. Munro said:


> Yes, it is.
> 
> Amar'e PP/FGA 1.23 DrawnF% 19.6
> D.Lee PP/FGA 1.16 DrawnF% 12.3
> 
> The reason that Amar'e draws so many more fouls is that he has an offensive game outside putbacks and transition buckets. Garbagemen just don't draw a lot of fouls. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, but you're comparing a garbageman that doesn't like playing defense to a pretty complete offensive player that doesn't like playing defense. If I have to choose between a guy that can swcore with ruthless efficiency on the blocks, and can score effectively out to three point range, I'm taking the guy that has the full arsenal.
> 
> I'm not particularly fond of either player due to their lackadaisical approach to defense. The same reason that I'm not particularly fond of Al Jefferson. But Amar'e is better than Lee.


and yet your'e pointing to something that you already said was neutralized by Lee's vastly superior rebounding and passing. So you used that bullet to neutralize Lee's huge rebounding and passing advantage. And now you are using it again. 

You can't keep going to the same old well. At some point you have to realize that the gap is not so large between the 2 players as you claim it is.


----------



## rayz789

caseyrh said:


> Look even if we go with exactly your reasoning, *is it so ridiculous to go with Lee as the better player?*
> 
> 
> 
> *^^^Yea it is. *
> 
> Let's just say I agree with you and that defense is a wash, and that the rebounding and passing advantage of Lee is neutralized by Amare's advantage in drawing fouls and ability to draw a double team.
> 
> 
> ^^^^
> So then we are left with essentially this as the arguement
> 
> Lee 20 points on 54.5 shooting in a similar offense with Duhon at point.
> 
> Vs.
> 
> Amare at 23 ppg on 55.7 shooting. with Nash at pg.
> 
> 
> *^^^^Are you trying to say that Duhan don't know how to pass to Lee? *
> 
> So at the end of the day if we use your argument exactly as you want, we come up with a relatively minimal difference in scoring numbers as the reason you believe Amare is better.
> 
> You can't see how the argument could be considered from a slightly different angle in order for Lee to be the better player???
> 
> 
> ^^^*Again if you think Lee is better cause he rebounds more and avg more assist then Amare, then Lee is better then Dirk since he avg more rebounds, more blocks, more steals then Dirk. *
> 
> 
> Like Maybe the huge advantage in rebounding and passing are not canceled out by the advantages that you feel Amare has?
> 
> 
> ^^^*You don't know what the hell you're talking about*
> 
> It's like this is what your argument boils down to and *yet you feel it is just completeley ridiculous for anyone to feel that Lee is better.*
> 
> 
> ^^^*It is ridiculous. And i already made an example of showing you that getting more rebounds and more assist don't mean Lee is better. <<<That from you is STUPID!*
> Come on. Amare is way overrated as a basketball player. Lee is certainly in the discussion.




*^^^zzzzzzzzz*


----------



## E.H. Munro

seifer0406 said:


> I see the "you've never played organized ball" argument coming in about 3 posts.


Three posts? You're an optimist I see.



caseyrh said:


> and yet your'e pointing to something that you already said was neutralized by Lee's vastly superior rebounding and passing.


¿Qué?

Let's try this one more time, and I'll use small words so that you can understand. I have two players that _only_ contribute on the offensive end. Therefore the more effective offensive player is the better of the two, and that player _isn't_ David Lee. He's inarguably a less efficient scorer. He doesn't draw anything like the number of fouls that Amar'e does. There's no way that you can obfuscate that.


----------



## caseyrh

E.H. Munro said:


> Three posts? You're an optimist I see.
> 
> 
> 
> ¿Qué?
> 
> Let's try this one more time, and I'll use small words so that you can understand. I have two players that _only_ contribute on the offensive end. Therefore the more effective offensive player is the better of the two, and that player _isn't_ David Lee. He's inarguably a less efficient scorer. He doesn't draw anything like the number of fouls that Amar'e does. There's no way that you can obfuscate that.


you are the king of going in circles. last time you said this I pointed out that rebounding and passing are also important parts of the game. To which you replied that those facets of the game were in your opinion


> Set off against much more efficient scoring, the ability to draw fouls against opposing bigs and the ability to command a double team.


So then I decided to follow your chain of arguments and pointed out that if according to you Lee's huge rebounding and passing advantage is neutralized by Amare's:


> more efficient scoring, the ability to draw fouls against opposing bigs and the ability to command a double team.


Then what we are left with is 2 very similar players. 

So what you replied with is they are not similar because of this


> Amar'e PP/FGA 1.23 DrawnF% 19.6
> D.Lee PP/FGA 1.16 DrawnF% 12.3


So i pointed out that you already fired that bullet in attempting to neutralize Lee's advantage.

Are you capable of understanding this discussion?

Obviously not because now you are back to square one again with this argument:



> I have two players that only contribute on the offensive end. Therefore the more effective offensive player is the better of the two, and that player isn't David Lee. He's inarguably a less efficient scorer. He doesn't draw anything like the number of fouls that Amar'e does. There's no way that you can obfuscate that.


So do I really have to start over with the Rebounding and passing argument?

Anyways no point in going in circles with you anymore. Your approach to discussions like this is dishonest, uninformative and extremely boring.


----------



## caseyrh

rayz789 said:


> *^^^zzzzzzzzz*


what country are you from?


----------



## E.H. Munro

caseyrh said:


> I pointed out that rebounding and passing are also important parts of the game.


Except that as Lee doesn't play any defense either, we're left with the offensive impact, and no matter how you try and obfuscate Lee doesn't have the impact that Stoudemire does. I'm sorry that none of us can match your experience of playing on a bronze medal winning team at the Special Olympics, but still. We have two one way players, and the one with the greater impact on that end of the floor is going to be the better guy.


----------



## MemphisX

How in the hell does an Amare/David Lee comparison thread go 20 pages...smh


----------



## E.H. Munro

Well, one of the participants is of the opinion that Luol Deng is better than Carmelo Anthony, and has probably posted a quarter million words to that effect. I'll let you figure it out.


----------



## caseyrh

E.H. Munro said:


> We have two one way players, and the one with the greater impact on that end of the floor is going to be the better guy.


See I view the game as having three major parts: Offense, Defense _and_ REBOUNDING. 

So Amare scores a little more, and a little more efficiently, but Lee is a much better passer.

Pretty much a wash on offense.

Defense: for arguments sake we will call it a wash.

Rebounding: No question here. Lee is a much better rebounder.

So in fact we have 1 player who is very good at 2 of the main parts of basketball (Lee) and bad at 1.

And we have another that is very good at 1 part, mediocre at another, and bad at the third.

See how that works?


----------



## seifer0406

I thought a few pages ago you were convinced that Lee draws just as much double teams as Amare. So now Amare does draw more double teams than Lee?



MemphisX said:


> How in the hell does an Amare/David Lee comparison thread go 20 pages...smh


This could've ended 19 pages ago I think. It's just fun to mess with this dude.

Remember how Rodney Stuckey said the Pistons are the best team on paper and everyone laughed at him? This is our Casey Stuckey. Good thing Rodney Stuckey has never played organized ball or he would really sound stupid coming out with such nonsense.


----------



## caseyrh

E.H. Munro said:


> Well, one of the participants is of the opinion that Luol Deng is better than Carmelo Anthony, and has probably posted a quarter million words to that effect. I'll let you figure it out.


Never said that. In fact I have said the exact opposite. But why should you introduce honesty into your repertoire at this point???

But I would like to point out that you thought the Bulls should trade Deng for Pietrus and the 7 mil backup Gortat.

Because it would allow Noah to be effective.

LOL.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> I thought a few pages ago you were convinced that Lee draws just as much double teams as Amare. So now Amare does draw more double teams than Lee?


No. But for the sake of the argument I was willing to go along with another persons argument in order to prove a greater point.

But I realize that this is to complicated of a concept for you to follow. So just ignore and move on...


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> No. But for the sake of the argument I was willing to go along with another persons argument in order to prove a greater point.
> 
> But I realize that this is to complicated of a concept for you to follow. So just ignore and move on...


So you're going to prove a greater point using something that you believe to be false. Wouldn't it make more sense to say that Lee is better at passing, rebounding, *and* drawing double teams? Wouldn't that be more convincing?

Personally I would like to see you continue to argue how David Lee draws as much double team and defensive attention as Amare. It is what you believe in isn't it?


----------



## E.H. Munro

caseyrh said:


> But I would like to point out that you thought the Bulls should trade Deng for Pietrus and the 7 mil backup Gortat.


Yes, it would get them out of that horrific Deng contract (as Pietrus is an expiring deal and would have a lot more trade value than the worse Deng and his four year $50+ million) and give them a rock solid 4/5 rotation, which they'd need if they have hopes of contending.


----------



## E.H. Munro

caseyrh said:


> See I view the game as having three major parts: Offense, Defense _and_ REBOUNDING.


See, like most people I view _offensive_ rebounding part of offense and _defensive_ rebounding part of defense. Because rebounding doesn't exist in isolation. 



caseyrh said:


> Pretty much a wash on offense.


No.


----------



## Blue

This is ridic. I been following Lee since 2001 when he was @ Florida, big fan, but Caseyrh you are out of line. Just fall back.


----------



## caseyrh

E.H. Munro said:


> See, like most people I view _offensive_ rebounding part of offense and _defensive_ rebounding part of defense. Because rebounding doesn't exist in isolation.


Well I think your in the minority there buddy. But I'm sick of going in circles with you. I don't want to get trapped in the E.H. _Monroe_ vortex again.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Doubtful. Can you make a case for rebounding happening in a context that is neither part of offense or defense?


----------



## caseyrh

funny thing is after all of this Lee is off to a much better start to the season.

It's early now, but at some point this is going to switch from last year to this year. And it's not looking good for Amare right now.


Amare PER: 15
Lee PER: 20

Warriors 2 and 0
Knicks 1 and 2

shhh


----------



## Blue

Boston & Portland > Clippers & Houston, sir


----------



## rayz789

caseyrh said:


> funny thing is after all of this Lee is off to a much better start to the season.
> 
> It's early now, but at some point this is going to switch from last year to this year. And it's not looking good for Amare right now.
> 
> 
> Amare PER: 15
> Lee PER: 20
> 
> *Warriors 2 and 0
> Knicks 1 and 2*
> shhh




Look at the opponents both team face this season moron. I'm curious who's the first option for The Warriors? And who's the first option for The Knicks?


----------



## rayz789

Blu said:


> Boston & Portland > Clippers & Houston, sir


And The Warriors hasn't play on the road until tonight vs The Lakers.


----------



## seifer0406

Blu said:


> Boston & Portland > Clippers & Houston, sir


Are you prepared to start an argument with casey regarding whether the Celtics are better than the Clippers?

"The Celtics might be better, but if you look closely the teams are more evenly matched than you think."


----------



## rayz789

seifer0406 said:


> Are you prepared to start an argument with casey regarding whether the Celtics are better than the Clippers?
> 
> *"The Celtics might be better, but if you look closely the teams are more evenly matched than you think."*


LMFAO


----------



## Sir Patchwork

What's funny is that David Lee was the only reason the Warriors didn't absolutely blow out the Rockets. Ellis and Curry obliterated Brooks and Martin in that game, and Luis Scola was the only reason the Rockets were in the game. I doubt Scola has a better game this season. Maybe his whole career.


----------



## caseyrh

LMFAO at the flurry of excuses.

You guys are awesome.


----------



## rayz789

caseyrh said:


> LMFAO at the flurry of excuses.
> 
> You guys are awesome.


LMFAO @ you getting owned by mostly everyone in this thread.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Lamar Odom is eating David Lee's lunch right now. 11 pts (4/7), 7 rebs (5 offensive), 4 asts in the first quarter, with Lee on him every possession. Lee can't keep him off the boards, can't stay with him off the dribble, can't guard him in the post. Lee had 1 rebound, and was 0/1 FG. He was irrelevant. 

I knew Lee was nothing special defensively, but I didn't know he was _this_ bad. He is the perfect player to have a career night on. Comparing him to Amare defensively may be doing a disservice to Amare.


----------



## Tragedy

lol. Was just coming to say that.


----------



## E.H. Munro

The three of them (Lee, Amar'e & Jefferson) are the most overrated 4s in the NBA in my opinion, and mostly because none of them have a real defensive position on the floor.


----------



## rayz789

Lmao @ Lee in the 1st quarter. Odom so far is abusing "the" great Lee.


----------



## rayz789

Lmfao @ Lee still getting abuse by Odom. And Lee still has 1 rebound? lolol. My bad he has 2 rebounds while freaking Odom has 10 rebounds. I repeat 10 REBOUNDS!!!!


----------



## seifer0406

at least David Lee has 3 more rebounds than Amare today. Not to mention the amount of double teams that Lee is commanding tonight is astonishing.


----------



## seifer0406

If only I had played organized ball then I could tell who's winning this game. Bigger number is better right?


----------



## jayk009

I don't see the point of bringing up David Lee's performance in today's game in this thread.

First of all, since when has anyone said David Lee was a good defender? Second of all, This isn't the first time a player has had a bad game. 


This thread really does not need to be bumped every time Amare or Lee has a good/bad game.


----------



## seifer0406

jayisthebest88 said:


> I don't see the point of bringing up David Lee's performance in today's game in this thread.
> 
> First of all, since when has anyone said David Lee was a good defender? Second of all, This isn't the first time a player has had a bad game.
> 
> 
> This thread really does not need to be bumped every time Amare or Lee has a good/bad game.


I agree. This is a slippery slope. The next thing I know I would be knocking Lee after he goes 19/10 while leading his team to a W.


----------



## rayz789

jayisthebest88 said:


> I don't see the point of bringing up David Lee's performance in today's game in this thread.
> 
> 
> *^^I see a point. Since Casey open his big mouth about Lee this and Lee that. And since he bad mouth Amare performance against The Blazers, this knock badly on Lee for his performance today is well deserve. Atleast when Amare lost to the celtics in boston, he play very well with 27 points, 8 rebounds, 2 blocks. And The Knicks only lost by 5. *
> 
> First of all, since when has anyone said David Lee was a good defender? Second of all, This isn't the first time a player has had a bad game.
> 
> 
> ^^^
> *Of course it ain't the first time but if a player like Lee suppost to be better then Amare then atleast kind of show it when he has Odom guarding him. But Odom not only out play Lee, but he basically abuse Lee very very badly to say the least. Amare was guarded by healthy very good defender in Kg in which Kg couldn't stop him with 27 points.*
> 
> This thread really does not need to be bumped every time Amare or Lee has a good/bad game.




^^^It does not needed but if -- people like casey keep posting up -- comments then this will continue on.


----------



## Dornado

Let's talk about Amare and David Lee and not other posters so that this thread can stay open, alright?


----------



## rayz789

Dornado said:


> Let's talk about Amare and David Lee and not other posters so that this thread can stay open, alright?


First off i apologies for insulting casey. Second off who you think is the better player, Amare? or Lee?


----------



## Dre

E.H. Munro said:


> Doubtful. Can you make a case for rebounding happening in a context that is neither part of offense or defense?


I guess he couldn't.

I wouldn't give that guy the time of day nh until he answered that question. He can keep a thread going hundreds of posts but he can ignore posts that obliterate his little points?


----------



## E.H. Munro

Dre™ said:


> I guess he couldn't.
> 
> I wouldn't give that guy the time of day nh until he answered that question. He can keep a thread going hundreds of posts but he can ignore posts that obliterate his little points?


The funny thing is, twelve years ago, when I was a far more casual fan, I would have said something similar to "offense, defense, and rebounding". It was a friend that coaches basketball for a living that taught me to stop looking at it holistically and to start looking at it within its proper context. (He had a forward that I didn't think a good enough rebounder to warrant all the playing time he got. He pointed out that his guy was an excellent defensive rebounder and a terrible offensive one, and he had his guy hustling back to seal off the break rather than crash the offensive glass.)


----------



## caseyrh

Dre™ said:


> I guess he couldn't.
> 
> I wouldn't give that guy the time of day nh until he answered that question. He can keep a thread going hundreds of posts but he can ignore posts that obliterate his little points?


A case for rebounding being separate from offense and defense?

First off who cares? I think it is pretty much generally accepted that basketball is three main parts. Offense, Defense and Rebounding. But if you don't agree with that why does it even matter? How does this help prove any point for you? All it does is give Lee an edge in defense and a stronger case in offense, if that's how you want to look at it.

It really is just another way to try and derail the argument, by confusing things. Look at it how ever you want, include it as part of any category you want.

But growing up I always was taught that they were kind of viewed separately. Sayings like: "Offense brings fans, Defense wins games, Rebounding wins championships." Kind of stick out when I think about this.

It's also that rebounds occur in a transition period _between_ offense and defense. So whichever team grabs the rebound will be on offense and whichever team doesn't will be on D. 

Anyways classify rebounding however you want, it doesn't make it disappear or minimize the impact of it so who cares?


----------



## caseyrh

Anyways I'm done with this thread.

The truth is that both of these guys Amare and Lee are highly overrated. Yes it's a very good comparison because of how similar they are. 

And yes Amare is better at scoring, but he is a complete black hole, turnover prone, his passing is a joke, his rebounding is mediocre, and his defense is laughable. 

Lee n the other hand is almost as good of a scorer, but he is a much better passer, much better rebounder, and probably equally bad at D.

At the end of the day the level of defense both of these guys play is so atrocious that it pretty much negates their impact on the other end of the court. Really I more have a problem with people hyping Amare up, then I care about Lee.

Last thing I want to do is get wrapped up in this any further. I'm more interested in the Bulls and Rose leading the league in scoring and Noah leading the league in rebounding.


----------



## Hyperion

caseyrh said:


> and yet your'e pointing to something that you already said was neutralized by Lee's vastly superior rebounding and passing. So you used that bullet to neutralize Lee's huge rebounding and passing advantage. And now you are using it again.
> 
> You can't keep going to the same old well. At some point you have to realize that the gap is not so large between the 2 players as you claim it is.


Let me get this straight, 4 more ppg on the same number of FGAs and FG% is not vastly superior but 2more apg and 2.5rpg is vastly superior? I think you just lost your battle. BTW, Lee would gather 18% of the available rebounds while Amare would gather 15%. That's not significant. 

If you were to look closer, Amare actually was better at offensive rebounding than Lee and Lee was the primary rebounder on the team. That speaks to the team's defense as a long jump shot leads to a long rebound and a short shot leads to a short rebound. That's where Lee got all of his rebounds.

I'm not trying to say Amare is a better rebounder because he's not, but he's not terrible at rebounding. He is actually a very good rebounder, just not great or elite. 

As for passing.... c'mon. They both aren't playmakers and never will be. Don't even try and bring in passing. And if you really want to go there, then we can point out the fact that Lee turns the ball over at double the rate Amare does 12% vs 24%.


----------



## seifer0406

It's funny how you're separating the game into 3 parts while the context is only 2 parts.

The premise was that Lee and Amare are equally bad on defense (I don't even know if that's true after watching last night's game). The discussion was about their differences on offense. Why would you rely on a stat where 75% of it comes from the defensive end? It makes no sense. David Lee averaged 2.8 off rebounds last year, the same as Amare.

They're called offensive and defensive rebounding for a reason. 



caseyrh said:


> Last thing I want to do is get wrapped up in this any further. I'm more interested in the Bulls and Rose leading the league in scoring and Noah leading the league in rebounding.


It took 21 pages but finally theres something I agree with. At least when you hype up Rose and Noah you'll be considered a homer. When you talk out of your ass about players you barely watch that's when you become a laughingstock. Stick with the Bulls, please.


----------



## Diable

I guess I got to be an Insider to look at David Lee's PER after last night. Oh B-R has it at 11.9...SupahStar


----------



## e-monk

hard to believe this farce has been going on for 23 pages - sorry for any part howsoever small I may have played

now I'm off to start the Wilson Chandler is better than Amar'e thread


----------



## ChosenFEW

Hyperion said:


> Grammar.
> 
> I agree with you. We should just stick to correcting each others' spelling.


thanks for making my point.

you definitely don't down play the douche title


----------



## Da Grinch

I'm assuming we are all in agreement now which one is better ?


----------



## futuristxen

I don't know where this thread is at right now...but I love the Knicks this year. So much fun to watch now.


----------



## Hyperion

ChosenFEW said:


> thanks for making my point.
> 
> you definitely don't down play the douche title


wow. and you're not capable of seeing sarcasm. You're like dumb and stuff.


----------



## Dre

This was a bumass comparison to begin with. Neither one of these guys could even be the second best player on a title team...why does this go 335 posts...I can't imagine how many pages with the 20pppers.

This was like arguing about bootleg 2 for 1$ cookies when you could just get some Oreos.


----------



## ChosenFEW

Hyperion said:


> wow. and you're not capable of seeing sarcasm. You're like dumb and stuff.


i thought it was proven that sarcasm and the interwebz dont go well together...


still,... its a good thing your :twocents: aren't worth more...


----------



## Bogg

e-monk said:


> hard to believe this farce has been going on for 23 pages - sorry for any part howsoever small I may have played
> 
> now I'm off to start the Wilson Chandler is better than Amar'e thread


Yea, it's been absolute nonsense. Next thing you know we'll have people saying Dwight has a better post up game than Pau or something.


----------



## HB

Would this be a good time to point how the Knicks are heading South and the Warriors arent doing so shabby.


----------



## caseyrh

HB said:


> Would this be a good time to point how the Knicks are heading South and the Warriors arent doing so shabby.


What a terrible idea to give Amare all that money. I know a lot of posters on here don't understand it... but, it turns out defense and rebounding (even passing) are important parts of basketball. In spite of having a cupcake schedule the Knicks are off to a horrible start, Amare is having a hell of a time scoring efficiently and he has more turnovers then apple. 


Hilarious. Meanwhile the Warriors were off to a great start before Lee got hurt, and then they promptly got run the next 2 games.

Anyways through 10 games Amare is clearly the loser here. No surprise to me.


----------



## Diable

You guys do realize that Lee had surgery and hasn't been playing don't you? I haven't looked it up, but I'd bet that the Warriors still haven't beaten one good team either.


----------



## rayz789

caseyrh said:


> What a terrible idea to give Amare all that money. I know a lot of posters on here don't understand it... but, it turns out defense and rebounding (even passing) are important parts of basketball. In spite of having a cupcake schedule the Knicks are off to a horrible start, Amare is having a hell of a time scoring efficiently and he has more turnovers then apple.
> 
> 
> Hilarious. Meanwhile the Warriors were off to a great start before Lee got hurt, and then they promptly got run the next 2 games.
> 
> Anyways through 10 games Amare is clearly the loser here. No surprise to me.



*Edit*. Even though The Warriors beat The Knicks, Amare was schooling the great Lee. When Lee was guarding Amare, Lee couldn't guard him. The Knicks are not doing good cause they shoot too much outside shots. And galo imo is mostly the reason cause he barely pass the ball and shoot too much outside shots if life was depending on him.


----------



## caseyrh

Diable said:


> You guys do realize that Lee had surgery and hasn't been playing don't you? I haven't looked it up, but I'd bet that the Warriors still haven't beaten one good team either.


If you read my post you would notice that I mentioned he was out. I also mentioned that the Warriors have gotten run in the 2 games without him.

So yes I do realize he is injured. But it seems to be minor maybe out another week.

As for not beating good teams the Warriors beat the Jazz. That's a good team. 

The only good team the Knicks beat was the Bulls and Amare had a horrible game. But the knicks shot 16 for 24 from the 3pt line to pick up his slack.

But the Knicks really have a cupcake schedule for the first part of the season so I'm sure they'll pick it up a little. ?


----------



## caseyrh

rayz789 said:


> Even though The Warriors beat The Knicks, Amare was schooling the great Lee. When Lee was guarding Amare, Lee couldn't guard him. The Knicks are not doing good cause they shoot too much outside shots. And galo imo is mostly the reason cause he barely pass the ball and shoot too much outside shots if life was depending on him.


If my post is retarded then you must think the knicks made a good choice in giving Amare all that money? OK.

As for Lee getting schooled against Amare:

Lee had 28 and 10 in that game. That is hardly getting "schooled"

Anyways the great thing about this comparison is that Lee played in NY last year so even though he is hurt right now we can always compare Lee last year to Amare this year statistically. So far Amare is losing that comparison big time.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Amare is off to a bad start, but he has shown signs of finding his comfort. He has still been their best scorer and rebounder. Lee has just been kind of insignificant in Golden State. Curry, Ellis and Wright have been the story on that team. Lee is like 4th option on offense, sucks on defense, and isn't even the best rebounder on the team if Biedrins is on the court.


----------



## Diable

Neither one these guys thought about wins for one second before they signed those deals. The Knicks sucked last year and every expected them to be bad this year. Lee and Amare are getting paid, it's just a bigger fool who paid Lee.


----------



## seifer0406

The Warriors are losing because their team just isn't that good. Sure Lee being out has something to do with it but I doubt anyone expected them to have a winning season this year. I'm not a believer that an Ellis/Curry backcourt will work and there isn't a lot of talent beyond those 2 and Lee.


----------



## rayz789

caseyrh said:


> If my post is retarded then you must think the knicks made a good choice in giving Amare all that money? OK.
> 
> As for Lee getting schooled against Amare:
> 
> Lee had 28 and 10 in that game. That is hardly getting "schooled"
> 
> Anyways the great thing about this comparison is that Lee played in NY last year so even though he is hurt right now we can always compare Lee last year to Amare this year statistically. So far Amare is losing that comparison big time.



You obviously didn't watch that game. When Lee was guarding Amare, Amare easily school him. He blow pass Lee very easily for a dunk. He even made a 3 points to cut the knicks to 1 with 30 seconds left i think and that was when lee was again guarding him. Sure Lee got 28 points and 10 rebounds but Amare got 33 points, a block, 3 assist and 3 steals and 10 rebounds. Lee didn't even try to block a shot lol. Btw that was Amare season high in points.


----------



## caseyrh

Look you guys can make as many excuses as you want but the truth is that Amare has a lot of work to do to start producing like Lee was producing for NY last year. 

So far it's not looking good for you guys though. Which sucks for you because you all came out so strongly in favor for Amare. Seasons not shaping up the way you thought?

But this is all premature we should probably check back in around 25-30 games and see if Amare has picked up the slack by then.


----------



## Spaceman Spiff

rayz789 said:


> You obviously didn't watch that game. When Lee was guarding Amare, Amare easily school him. He blow pass Lee very easily for a dunk. He even made a 3 points to cut the knicks to 1 with 30 seconds left i think and that was when lee was again guarding him. Sure Lee got 28 points and 10 rebounds but Amare got 33 points, a block, 3 assist and 3 steals and 10 rebounds. Lee didn't even try to block a shot lol. Btw that was Amare season high in points.


They schooled each other up. Neither guy plays much(if any) defense to begin with so numbers like that are to be expected. I remember Nick Collison having a 20/20 game on Amare.


----------



## Hyperion

Spaceman Spiff said:


> They schooled each other up. Neither guy plays much(if any) defense to begin with so numbers like that are to be expected. I remember Nick Collison having a 20/20 game on Amare.


Consistently he would put up career games. I bet his agent DVRed those games Collison had against Amare.


----------



## HB

I know its the trendy thing to hate on Lee, but you do realize he is putting up 15,11 and 2 or so apg.


----------



## rayz789

In his last 3 games Amare had 25+ points, 10+ rebounds and 2 blocks 3rd straight times. <<And those were all knicks wins. Has Lee ever had a 25+ points, 10+ rebounds, 2 blocks 3 straight times??????? Casey please answer this. 


Btw LMAO!!!!!!! @ Lee is better then Amare.


----------



## caseyrh

rayz789 said:


> In his last 3 games Amare had 25+ points, 10+ rebounds and 2 blocks 3rd straight times. <<And those were all knicks wins. Has Lee ever had a 25+ points, 10+ rebounds, 2 blocks 3 straight times??????? Casey please answer this.
> 
> 
> Btw LMAO!!!!!!! @ Lee is better then Amare.


Blake Griffin and Kevin Love say high.

Love (31 and 31) Griffin (44, 15, and 7) LOL.

Anyways the Knicks schedule has been an absolute joke and the warriors have fallen apart since Lee's freak injury. Amare is still not producing like Lee did last year for the knicks. You probably shouldn't have bumped this thread. Amare is a joke.


----------



## Game3525

caseyrh said:


> Blake Griffin and Kevin Love say high.
> 
> *Love (31 and 31) Griffin (44, 15, and 7) LOL.*
> 
> Anyways the Knicks schedule has been an absolute joke and *the warriors have fallen apart since Lee's freak injury.* Amare is still not producing like Lee did last year for the knicks. You probably shouldn't have bumped this thread. Amare is a joke.


If Lee was playing now, the results would be the same, Lee is a nice player, but he really doesn't have that big of impact. Amare is overrated, but you take him off the Knicks, they may have the worst record in the league right now. Hell, look how much the Suns are struggling since they don't have that go-to scorer anymore.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

The Warriors played a bunch of terrible teams before Lee went down. A combined record of 29-53(Raptors, Clippers, Knicks, Rockets, Grizzlies) with the Jazz in Golden State being the one quality win out of 6. Lee hasn't really made a difference at all for the Warriors. 16.5 PER in those 8 games. 

Amare started off terrible, but has really picked it up. 28ppg on 59%FG in the last 5 games with 9 boards to go with it. Knicks are starting to find some rhythm too.


----------



## Tragedy

One thing about Lee, it's a positive - he can join any team and contribute immediately.

Reason being - he's just a cog. No plays run for him, and he's a hustle player. A very good one. Great for any team that has their number 1 and number 2 option set - like Golden State.

But Amare started slow because he IS the offense those first few games. He is option 1, and option 2 is whoever steps up that game - not good for a number 1 option in that situation, especially if you're a post player.


----------



## caseyrh

Tragedy said:


> But Amare started slow because he IS the offense those first few games. He is option 1, and option 2 is whoever steps up that game - not good for a number 1 option in that situation, especially if you're a post player.


hmmm i wonder if David Lee ever had to deal with that situation? hmmm.. let me think... oh yeah just last year when the knicks had even worse talent around him.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> hmmm i wonder if David Lee ever had to deal with that situation? hmmm.. let me think... oh yeah just last year when the knicks had even worse talent around him.


You are aware that the Knicks were 3-11 last year after the first 14 games right? What exactly is your point? That the Knicks were worse with Lee?

Not only does your point doesn't make any sense, I don't even think it is a correct way to judge a player's impact to a team. For example, the Bulls are on pace to win 52 games right now without Boozer. Let's say Boozer returns and they end up winning 55 games, does that mean Boozer's regular season impact is only 3 wins?


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> You are aware that the Knicks were 3-11 last year after the first 14 games right? What exactly is your point? That the Knicks were worse with Lee?


I'm shocked that you can't understand my point...

Someone said Amare's stats are down because in New York he has to be the number 1 and number 2 option, or how ever he phrased it.

My point is that David Lee played on the knicks last year with the same responsibilities. Actually more because Lee's surrounding talent last year was unquestionably worse than Amare's this year.

How is that so hard to follow? How can you not understand that? I quoted someone's comment and responded directly to it, in a very simple manner.

But let me explain in more detail:

On one hand you guys say that what Lee accomplished last year should be taken with a grain of salt because of how bad the knicks were, nobody paid attention to him. 

On the other hand you guys want to claim that Amare has struggled to start the season because the knicks are so bad that he receives so much defensive attention.

can you guys not understand how biased it looks to use the same argument in completely different ways depending on how it suits you...

It's laughable.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> I'm shocked that you can't understand my point...
> 
> Someone said Amare's stats are down because in New York he has to be the number 1 and number 2 option, or how ever he phrased it.
> 
> My point is that David Lee played on the knicks last year with the same responsibilities. Actually more because Lee's surrounding talent last year was unquestionably worse than Amare's this year.
> 
> How is that so hard to follow? How can you not understand that? I quoted someone's comment and responded directly to it, in a very simple manner.
> 
> But let me explain in more detail:
> 
> On one hand you guys say that what Lee accomplished last year should be taken with a grain of salt because of how bad the knicks were, nobody paid attention to him.
> 
> On the other hand you guys want to claim that Amare has struggled to start the season because the knicks are so bad that he receives so much defensive attention.
> 
> can you guys not understand how biased it looks to use the same argument in completely different ways depending on how it suits you...
> 
> It's laughable.


I thought that by "producing for the Knicks" you meant helping the team to wins because stat wise I really don't see how Lee was superior last year considering Amare is putting up 23/8.5/2blks this year. You continue to knock on Amare's offensive production though at the very least he has matched Lee's last year. The turnovers have been down from the first few games now that Amare is comfortable with his new teammates, I expect his stats to be even better a month from now.


----------



## seifer0406

And Casey isn't the only one that's bummed out about Lee missing games and not being able to show everyone what a great player he is. The Warriors are playing the Lakers tonight and I'm bummed about not seeing Odom ride Lee doggy style like last time. I have refrained myself from bumping this thread everytime Amare has a good game because Lee has been out, but I guess I should start doing so anyway.


----------



## Tragedy

caseyrh said:


> hmmm i wonder if David Lee ever had to deal with that situation? hmmm.. let me think... oh yeah just last year when the knicks had even worse talent around him.


The Knicks had no goal last season.

Last season was the season prior to the Lebron sweepstakes. It was mailed in since the season before last! It was pretty much a, "get yours, and if we somehow make the playoffs, cool, but if we don't so what" type of season.

It was a mess, and we all know why.

David Lee wasn't even the first option. He was just a player on a team with no identity.

But the Knicks this season have playoff aspirations. Plays are actually run for Amare, and he's intended (currently) to be the first option. It's a different approach to this season.

So you cannot compare the knocks of last season to the knicks of this season. They still have problems, and Amare is still a flawed star - but teams approach Amare differently than Lee was approached by defenses, and offensively they look to go through Amare more than they did with Lee - and with more of a purpose.


----------



## caseyrh

Tragedy said:


> The Knicks had no goal last season.
> 
> Last season was the season prior to the Lebron sweepstakes. It was mailed in since the season before last! It was pretty much a, "get yours, and if we somehow make the playoffs, cool, but if we don't so what" type of season.
> 
> It was a mess, and we all know why.
> 
> David Lee wasn't even the first option. He was just a player on a team with no identity.
> 
> But the Knicks this season have playoff aspirations. Plays are actually run for Amare, and he's intended (currently) to be the first option. It's a different approach to this season.
> 
> So you cannot compare the knocks of last season to the knicks of this season. They still have problems, and Amare is still a flawed star - but teams approach Amare differently than Lee was approached by defenses, and offensively they look to go through Amare more than they did with Lee - and with more of a purpose.


I guess if you say it it's true. Because there is nothing of substance here in your response.

Your opinion is that Amare is much better then Lee. You're arguments however consist of a bunch of excuses and opinions.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> I thought that by "producing for the Knicks" you meant helping the team to wins because stat wise I really don't see how Lee was superior last year considering Amare is putting up 23/8.5/2blks this year. You continue to knock on Amare's offensive production though at the very least he has matched Lee's last year. The turnovers have been down from the first few games now that Amare is comfortable with his new teammates, I expect his stats to be even better a month from now.


Amare's PER this year: 20.68
Lee's PER last year: 22.28

And the fact that guys are having all time great games against Amare isn't exactly surprising. 

Amare has had an amazingly cupcake schedule, in fact according to Hollinger's strength of schedule the knicks have had the 2nd easiest in the entire nba.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> Amare's PER this year: 20.68
> Lee's PER last year: 22.28
> 
> And the fact that guys are having all time great games against Amare isn't exactly surprising.
> 
> Amare has had an amazingly cupcake schedule, in fact according to Hollinger's strength of schedule the knicks have had the 2nd easiest in the entire nba.


Even if we're going to use PER as an end all stat, not that I agree with, a 1.6 difference is hardly definitive to who's had a better season. Especially when you factor the element of getting used to a new roster, it's hardly something that warrants you mocking him at every corner.

I agree that the Knicks haven't been playing the toughest opponents but the Knicks had 1 win in their first 10 last year. In fact, they were 3-14 at the end of November. They had a tougher schedule last year but it wasn't to that extent.

I'll say this, we can revisit this thread 2 month from now and we'll have a firm grasp of the difference between Lee and Amare. I just don't see why you would knock him now when he has been playing well and the Knicks have been winning games even if it's against teams that they should be beating.


----------



## seifer0406

And one more thing, we might have to re-examine the Knicks roster moves beside Amare because so far the other moves haven't all been producing. Anthony Randolph hasn't done much thus far and Mosgov has been a dud. They've improved their PG position with Felton but when you consider that they lost Al Harrington who averaged 18 ppg last year, they are actually more evenly matched talent wise than we first thought. Depending on how Randolph plays the rest of the way I don't even know if this year's Knicks squad minus Amare is really "unquestionably better" than last year's Knicks squad without David Lee.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> And one more thing, we might have to re-examine the Knicks roster moves beside Amare because so far the other moves haven't all been producing. Anthony Randolph hasn't done much thus far and Mosgov has been a dud. They've improved their PG position with Felton but when you consider that they lost Al Harrington who averaged 18 ppg last year, they are actually more evenly matched talent wise than we first thought. Depending on how Randolph plays the rest of the way I don't even know if this year's Knicks squad minus Amare is really "unquestionably better" than last year's Knicks squad without David Lee.


How about the natural growth of a very young roster.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> How about the natural growth of a very young roster.


Considering only 3 players (Chandler/Gallo/Douglas) were with the Knicks last year, it's hardly the main driving force of a record improvement if there ends up being one. Gallo and Chandler have improved but neither have done enough to warrant a break out year type of recognition.

Again, in early parts of this thread you've made a preconceived notion that Amare's supporting cast is a lot better than Lee's last year. From what I've seen thus far, it's still too early to tell because the guys that's suppose to elevate this supporting cast just hasn't been producing like they're suppose to.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

caseyrh said:


> And the fact that guys are having all time great games against Amare isn't exactly surprising.


Please don't act like Luis Scola and Lamar Odom didn't eat David Lee's lunch this season. Lee is terrible defensively like Amare.


----------



## caseyrh

Sir Patchwork said:


> Please don't act like Luis Scola and Lamar Odom didn't eat David Lee's lunch this season. Lee is terrible defensively like Amare.


2 different levels. We are talking about Kevin Love going for 31 and 31 first time it happened since 1982. And Blake Griffin having one of the all time great rookie games. Both in the span of a week.

Look they both are bad at D. But I realize this, you however think Amare + Perkins equals a championship pf/c tandem (i believe you said that).

Every facet of Amare's game outside of scoring is awful. Maybe his rebounding is mediocre.
He has no business on any team interested in winning. Because he is purely interested in "getting his" he is the definition of a me-first player and I think it is really irritating that so many fans act like this guy is a superstar. What he is, is a cancer.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> Even if we're going to use PER as an end all stat, not that I agree with, a 1.6 difference is hardly definitive to who's had a better season. Especially when you factor the element of getting used to a new roster, it's hardly something that warrants you mocking him at every corner.


But here's the thing. You guys have insulted me six ways to sunday on this thread for even suggesting that this is a valid comparison.

So if the stats are still saying that Lee did better in NY, regardless of how small the difference is, then you look really bad.

Because basically my perspective this whole time has been: Amare's better at scoring, they both suck at D, and the big edge Lee has in passing and rebounding is what separates them. For that you yourself have called me a laughingstock. 

So if this comparison is so horrible that I am a complete joke for not agreeing with you, then how come Lee's NY stats are better than Amare (aka STAT) stat's?

As strongly as you guys have come out in this thread you would think that Amare would just be dominating this comparison. 



> I agree that the Knicks haven't been playing the toughest opponents but the Knicks had 1 win in their first 10 last year. In fact, they were 3-14 at the end of November. They had a tougher schedule last year but it wasn't to that extent.


Theyv'e had an absolutely fluff schedule. In fact the only quality win they have was over the Bulls. And I watched that game and Amare was absolutely awful. They won because the team was unconscious from the 3pt line.




> I'll say this, we can revisit this thread 2 month from now and we'll have a firm grasp of the difference between Lee and Amare. I just don't see why you would knock him now when he has been playing well and the Knicks have been winning games even if it's against teams that they should be beating.


I'm knocking him now because other people are bumping this thread and I am responding. So far Amare has had a disappointing season, there is no denying this.


----------



## e-monk

caseyrh said:


> Amare's PER this year: 20.68
> Lee's PER last year: 22.28
> 
> And the fact that guys are having all time great games against Amare isn't exactly surprising.
> 
> Amare has had an amazingly cupcake schedule, in fact according to Hollinger's strength of schedule the knicks have had the 2nd easiest in the entire nba.


David Lee's PER this season is 16.6, Amare's PER LY was 22.6 - what's up with the slight-of-hand?

and I dont love PER anyway - too much subjectivity in the matter of wieghting


----------



## Hyperion

caseyrh said:


> 2 different levels. We are talking about Kevin Love going for 31 and 31 first time it happened since 1982. And Blake Griffin having one of the all time great rookie games. Both in the span of a week.
> 
> Look they both are bad at D. But I realize this, you however think Amare + Perkins equals a championship pf/c tandem (i believe you said that).
> 
> Every facet of Amare's game outside of scoring is awful. Maybe his rebounding is mediocre.
> He has no business on any team interested in winning. Because he is purely interested in "getting his" he is the definition of a me-first player and I think it is really irritating that so many fans act like this guy is a superstar. What he is, is a cancer.


He's not a cancer, he just needs a big 7 footer to rebound and defend, an MVP point guard to make plays for everyone else, an All Star 2 guard pulling the defense out, an undersized PF guarding him, and an opposing coach that doesn't know he has a jump shot.

All kidding aside. Amare is incredibly overrated and is in no way a superstar that he once was. His injuries have changed his game. He plays slower than he did and he plays lower than he did. He halfway earned his last contract and was given an even bigger one this year which he won't earn a third of. 

The Suns don't miss him but rather miss their big guys not doing anything in the post. No one is grabbing rebounds. That's the problem.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> But here's the thing. You guys have insulted me six ways to sunday on this thread for even suggesting that this is a valid comparison.
> 
> So if the stats are still saying that Lee did better in NY, regardless of how small the difference is, then you look really bad.
> 
> Because basically my perspective this whole time has been: Amare's better at scoring, they both suck at D, and the big edge Lee has in passing and rebounding is what separates them. For that you yourself have called me a laughingstock.
> 
> So if this comparison is so horrible that I am a complete joke for not agreeing with you, then how come Lee's NY stats are better than Amare (aka STAT) stat's?
> 
> As strongly as you guys have come out in this thread you would think that Amare would just be dominating this comparison.


It's kind of baffling that after arguing with people for about 15 pages that you still cannot remember what you were arguing about. Nobody was saying that Lee didn't have a good season last year statistically, we argued that teams prepare for the 2 differently. That was the argument. Lee did put up very good stats last year. If he didn't this thread would've ended about 25 pages ago, in fact, there wouldn't even be a thread.

David Lee had a better PER than Amare last year, we don't even have to compare their performances as a Knick to come to the conclusion that Lee had better overall stats. The argument all along has been that Lee's stats are empty because the games that he plays don't matter. The Knicks playoff drive ended a month into the season last year, the rest of the games were just a formality. The Warrior team that he plays on will be the same story in the tougher Western conference. The only difference is he no longer has the opportunity to put up good looking stats on a bad team, he'll just put up mediocre stats on a bad team.

Again, I'm not going into this discussion again regarding how teams prepare for Lee. We've already been through 15 pages of that. I'm just pointing out why you were insulted. It wasn't because of their stats but rather how they got their stats.



> Theyv'e had an absolutely fluff schedule. In fact the only quality win they have was over the Bulls. And I watched that game and Amare was absolutely awful. They won because the team was unconscious from the 3pt line.


I'm not saying that they are world beaters, I'm just saying that they are at least better than they were last year when they went 3-14 to start the season.


----------



## caseyrh

e-monk said:


> David Lee's PER this season is 16.6, Amare's PER LY was 22.6 - what's up with the slight-of-hand?
> 
> and I dont love PER anyway - too much subjectivity in the matter of wieghting


Well the problem with using this year is that Lee has dropped from the 1st toh the third option. Big change. 

And last year he was in basically the same exact role as Amare is in this year.


----------



## Diable

No, there is a difference between playing garbage minutes and playing competitive basketball. The Knicks are at least a team which is capable of beating other NBA teams this year. That means that the other teams starters are playing heavy minutes against them. The knicks have been an easy win for the past couple of years. You go in there, kick their asses and try to rest your starters. Picking meaningless rebounds in meaningless minutes is a lot different than when you're actually competing against another team on equal terms. Lee's stats are simply that, they have absolutely no deeper meaning or context...they're just ****ing numbers.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> It's kind of baffling that after arguing with people for about 15 pages that you still cannot remember what you were arguing about. Nobody was saying that Lee didn't have a good season last year statistically, we argued that teams prepare for the 2 differently. That was the argument. Lee did put up very good stats last year. If he didn't this thread would've ended about 25 pages ago, in fact, there wouldn't even be a thread.
> 
> David Lee had a better PER than Amare last year, we don't even have to compare their performances as a Knick to come to the conclusion that Lee had better overall stats. The argument all along has been that Lee's stats are empty because the games that he plays don't matter. The Knicks playoff drive ended a month into the season last year, the rest of the games were just a formality. The Warrior team that he plays on will be the same story in the tougher Western conference. The only difference is he no longer has the opportunity to put up good looking stats on a bad team, he'll just put up mediocre stats on a bad team.
> 
> Again, I'm not going into this discussion again regarding how teams prepare for Lee. We've already been through 15 pages of that. I'm just pointing out why you were insulted. It wasn't because of their stats but rather how they got their stats.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying that they are world beaters, I'm just saying that they are at least better than they were last year when they went 3-14 to start the season.


Oh I get it. 

Basically Regardless of how Amare actually plays, he is better because of a pre-conceived notion that you have suggested is true. And because a few other posters have agreed with you then you are right, and nothing that actually happens this season matters anyways.

Because Lee's experience as a 20 and 10 player on the knicks last year is so dramatically different then Amare's experience on the knicks this year. 


_I am right, you are wrong and nothing tangible can ever change it._ Doesn't matter who puts up better stats or which team has a better record.


----------



## caseyrh

Diable said:


> No, there is a difference between playing garbage minutes and playing competitive basketball. The Knicks are at least a team which is capable of beating other NBA teams this year. That means that the other teams starters are playing heavy minutes against them. The knicks have been an easy win for the past couple of years. You go in there, kick their asses and try to rest your starters. Picking meaningless rebounds in meaningless minutes is a lot different than when you're actually competing against another team on equal terms. Lee's stats are simply that, they have absolutely no deeper meaning or context...they're just ****ing numbers.


Last I checked the knicks were still a garbage team.

They actually now have had the easiest schedule in the NBA. Hollingers formula has them as the 22nd best team in the NBA. And even though they have had an absolute joke of a schedule they are still being outscored by their opponents.

Stop pretending this team is going places. They are awful.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> Oh I get it.
> 
> Basically Regardless of how Amare actually plays, he is better because of a pre-conceived notion that you have suggested is true. And because a few other posters have agreed with you then you are right, and nothing that actually happens this season matters anyways.
> 
> Because Lee's experience as a 20 and 10 player on the knicks last year is so dramatically different then Amare's experience on the knicks this year.
> 
> 
> _I am right, you are wrong and nothing tangible can ever change it._ Doesn't matter who puts up better stats or which team has a better record.


No, you still don't get it. You think you _do_, but you don't. You get caught up in your desperation to find an angle that suits you that you lose sight of the main discussion. 

This argument started because someone suggested that because Lee puts up similar stats as Amare, he should be considered on the same tier as Amare. Nobody has refuted the fact that the premise is true, if it wasn't there would be no discussion. The argument was about how those stats got there, that Lee played meaningless games. For you to go through 15-20 pages where you were the focus no less it is just laughable that you're still not following the discussion.



> I am right, you are wrong and nothing tangible can ever change it. Doesn't matter who puts up better stats or which team has a better record.


If the Knicks end up with a worse record this year than last year then it does show that Amare is at least on par with Lee in terms of bringing Knicks wins. But that's not what you're arguing about. You're trying to argue something that nobody is in disagreement about. It doesn't help your case and it certainly doesn't hurt ours.

I don't blame you for trying to prove your case, but trying to convince people that Lee put up decent stats last year isn't going to help you. Whether the Knicks are better this year will essentially be the verdict of this argument. Which is why I said that it's odd for you to knock Amare when the Knicks have been winning as of late.


----------



## Xeneise

caseyrh said:


> Last I checked the knicks were still a garbage team.
> 
> They actually now have had the easiest schedule in the NBA. Hollingers formula has them as the 22nd best team in the NBA. And even though they have had an absolute joke of a schedule they are still being outscored by their opponents.
> 
> Stop pretending this team is going places. They are awful.


To be fair, casey, they have basically an entire new team this season and it's going to take some time to get their offensive scheme implemented. They are also shooting a terrible % from 16-23 feet and from three point range, so when that improves (it will) they will be a lot better. The question will come down to defense, but I believe right now they are ranked middle of the pack in defensive efficiency.

They definitely have talent to make the playoffs once Amare/Felton get into a rhythm and Azubuike comes back and they have a real shooting guard.


----------



## Luke

People are still talking about this? Bringing up a 14 game sample size like it means anything? Look, Amar'e is overrated, I think we can all agree on that. But anyone who has watched ten minutes of either player can say with one hundred percent certainty that Amar'e is clearly the better player. It's not close and it never has been.


----------



## Diable

But what about their stat sheets?


----------



## seifer0406

Your opinion is invalid because you've never played organized basketball.

I think I'm going to apply for a position within the Knicks FO. Because apparently you don't need any sort of basketball experience to be working there.


----------



## Game3525

caseyrh said:


> Well the problem with using this year is that Lee has dropped from the 1st toh the third option. Big change.
> 
> *And last year he was in basically the same exact role as Amare is in this year*.


That is false though, they run plays for Amare because he is a true number one option. They didn't do that for Lee. Last years Knicks team was just a bunch of guys getting their's.


----------



## caseyrh

Game3525 said:


> That is false though, they run plays for Amare because he is a true number one option. They didn't do that for Lee. Last years Knicks team was just a bunch of guys getting their's.


Get back to me when you guys can come up with an argument that doesn't consist of your opinions presented as facts.


----------



## Game3525

caseyrh said:


> Get back to me when you guys can come up with an argument that doesn't consist of your opinions presented as facts.


I take it you never watched a Knick game last year?


----------



## caseyrh

Xeneise said:


> To be fair, casey, they have basically an entire new team this season and it's going to take some time to get their offensive scheme implemented. They are also shooting a terrible % from 16-23 feet and from three point range, so when that improves (it will) they will be a lot better. The question will come down to defense, but I believe right now they are ranked middle of the pack in defensive efficiency.
> 
> They definitely have talent to make the playoffs once Amare/Felton get into a rhythm and Azubuike comes back and they have a real shooting guard.


They are returning very young core players. Galinari, Douglas, and Chandler. All of whom should show significant improvement. They have added a 100 million dollar player that spent the majority of his career with Dantoni and his system. All of those additions should be positive right off the bat.

Then they have replaced a terrible pg with an 18 and 8 pg (duhon for felton). 

They added a 7 footer who a lot of people were high on (mozgov). they drafted a starting 2g (fields). They traded Lee for Randolph. 

All of this and they have had the easiest schedule in the NBA.



seifer0406 said:


> If the Knicks end up with a worse record this year than last year then it does show that Amare is at least on par with Lee in terms of bringing Knicks wins. But that's not what you're arguing about. You're trying to argue something that nobody is in disagreement about. It doesn't help your case and it certainly doesn't hurt ours.



But I am supposed to believe that with all the additions and growth of key young players. That the way we should judge this comparison is whether or not the knicks can win more games than last year....

Dude that is the most biased (and I'm not surprised) way of judging this comparison. If you want to use this win/loss record as the end all be all then at least be fair and bump up the Knicks expected win total.

Are you suggesting that if the knicks had Lee instead of Amare that the expected win total for this years team would be the same as last year???

Make honest arguments.


----------



## caseyrh

Game3525 said:


> I take it you never watched a Knick game last year?


oh that argument again?

Again get back to me when there is substance in your arguments rather than solely your opinion. Because it is already clear that my opinion of this subject does not agree with yours.


----------



## Game3525

caseyrh said:


> oh that argument again?
> 
> Again get back to me when there is substance in your arguments rather than solely your opinion. Because it is already clear that my opinion of this subject does not agree with yours.


The thing is it is not an opinion, that is just fact. Amare doesn't play the same role as Lee did on the Knicks last year.

But, suit yourself. You can believe whatever you want.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> But I am supposed to believe that with all the additions and growth of key young players. That the way we should judge this comparison is whether or not the knicks can win more games than last year....
> 
> Dude that is the most biased (and I'm not surprised) way of judging this comparison. If you want to use this win/loss record as the end all be all then at least be fair and bump up the Knicks expected win total.
> 
> Are you suggesting that if the knicks had Lee instead of Amare that the expected win total for this years team would be the same as last year???
> 
> Make honest arguments.


I don't think anyone said that theres a definitive answer if the win totals are similar. What I said was if the Knicks ends up being worse, then that would definitely show that Amare is at best on par with David Lee.

Again, I don't think anyone here suggested that winning more than 29 games is what it will take to show that Amare is better. To me a successful season with this current Knicks squad is making the playoffs which in the current East would be around 40 wins.

I've already posted about Knicks off season additions and their overall impact to the team thus far. Felton has basically replaced Al Harrington's production and Randolph/Mosgov/Azubuike haven't done much as a Knick. If the Knicks end up improving by 10-12 wins this year it would be hard to credit that to the development of Wilson Chandler and Galinari. Those two have improved but it's nowhere near the extent that you're suggesting.


----------



## Hyperion

1 man versus and entire messaging board. Who will win? Can he outlast, can he survive?


----------



## rayz789

caseyrh said:


> Blake Griffin and Kevin Love say high.
> 
> Love (31 and 31) Griffin (44, 15, and 7) LOL.
> 
> Anyways the Knicks schedule has been an absolute joke and the warriors have fallen apart since Lee's freak injury. Amare is still not producing like Lee did last year for the knicks. You probably shouldn't have bumped this thread. Amare is a joke.


Umm i said "HAS LEE EVER GOT A 25+ POINTS, 10+REBOUNDS, 2+BLOCKS 3 STRAIGHT GAMES IN A ROW????" A schedule a joke? The last 11 games before tonight the knicks have play at home only 4 times while the rest were 7 times on the road. <<<That's a joke schedule? lol.


----------



## ScottVdub

If you put Amare on the Warriors he automatically becomes a go to guy for that team, possibly the best player on the team. David Lee is not. Yes Amare is better than David Lee.


----------



## rayz789

rayz789 said:


> Umm i said "HAS LEE EVER GOT A 25+ POINTS, 10+REBOUNDS, 2+BLOCKS 3 STRAIGHT GAMES IN A ROW????" A schedule a joke? The last 11 games before tonight the knicks have play at home only 4 times while the rest were 7 times on the road. <<<That's a joke schedule? lol.


Still can't answer huh casey?


----------



## rayz789

Btw last night Amare got 6 blocks. I REPEAT 6 FREAKING BLOCKS! HAS DAVID LEE EVER ATLEAST GET 2 BLOCKS?


----------



## rayz789

ScottVdub said:


> If you put Amare on the Warriors he automatically becomes a go to guy for that team, possibly the best player on the team. David Lee is not. Yes Amare is better than David Lee.



Amare would be the number 1 option for the warriors while ellis would be number 2 and curry number 3. Lee is clearly number 3 option behind monte and curry. <<In which should tell you all you need to know of who's better between Amare or Lee. Hell if Lee went to the suns, would he be the second option behind nash? hell no. Jrich would be the second option.


----------



## rayz789

What the hell is Amare doing? He's not suppost to get 34 points with 10 rebounds tonight vs the hornets lol. So casey is Lee still better then Amare???? HAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Game3525

Amare has been on a tear the past 4-5 games.


----------



## Truknicksfan

Lol, there were actually people who though David Lee was as good as Amare. Thats scary.....


As a knick fan I saw every game David Lee played up until this year, and he was not much of a impact player. Even if he average the same stats as Amare (which he doesnt), Amare would be a better player because he has a much bigger impact on helping a team.

What the Knicks average like 25 wins a season while Lee was a player? Amare would never let even a horrible team he is on average 25 wins a season.

Man, how this was even a debate is scary. Comapring a good player to a star player.


----------



## seifer0406

Truknicksfan said:


> Lol, there were actually people who though David Lee was as good as Amare. Thats scary.....
> 
> 
> As a knick fan I saw every game David Lee played up until this year, and he was not much of a impact player. Even if he average the same stats as Amare (which he doesnt), Amare would be a better player because he has a much bigger impact on helping a team.
> 
> What the Knicks average like 25 wins a season while Lee was a player? Amare would never let even a horrible team he is on average 25 wins a season.
> 
> Man, how this was even a debate is scary. Comapring a good player to a star player.


You can watch every single Knicks game and your opinion would still be worthless. I mean, if my 5 year old daughter or my 2 year old goldfish watched Knicks games would you value their opinion? There is only one type of opinion that matters in this world, the opinion of someone who have played organized basketball. Boxscore might lie, records might lie, expert opinions might lie, but 2 things in this world never lie. The ball, and the opinion of someone who has played organized ball. If you want to call me a douche, call me a douche. But remember one thing, everything I say is important, value my words.


----------



## e-monk

that's some bull crap right there - it's not rocket science - you can develop a fairly well informed opinion without actually playing 

it's like saying you cant talk about music intelligently if you never played in a band

well I've played organized ball through high school (not claiming I was any good) and I've played in a band

and you disagree with me half the time on basketball and dont get me started about music because we probably wouldnt be eye-to-eye on that either


----------



## GrandKenyon6

I don't know how anyone in their right mind can think David Lee is even comparable to Amare, let alone as good or better.


----------



## Da Grinch

this thread is funny .

the knicks are now 11-9

lee is basically a 4th option in golden state.....heck the knicks are even better at rebounding the ball without lee which is supposedly his big advantage over amare.


----------



## PauloCatarino

I guess the "debate" is over...


----------



## seifer0406

Since I don't see caseyrh coming back any time soon, I'll just pretend to be him for a bit longer.

There is only 1 true reason to the current Knicks success - "Raymond Felton". It has been proven that Amare cannot play without a good point guard. Nash is the reason why Amare was successful in Phoenix and Felton is the reason why Amare doesn't completely suck in New York. People forget Felton was also added to the team this summer and he is the difference between this Knicks being over .500 and the Knicks team last year when they were 5-15. If David Lee was still on the team and you add Felton, they would be fighting with the Celtics for the top of the Eastern conference.

People have told me that a starting lineup is made out of 6 positions. PG,SG,SF,PF,C and true PG. Raymond Felton is a true PG. If your true PG is good, your team is good. The Knicks's true PG is better than last year's true PG Chris Duhon, and that's why they're better now.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Raymond Felton is part of the reason the Knicks are good, mainly because good players help you win, but this whole rationalization about Amare can't play without Nash...or Felton...is silly. That's like the people who said Kobe couldn't win without Shaquille, then when he did, it was he can't win without an all-star big man. 

Amare is great on his own merit. Good point guards help him, but I'd say even more so that he helps good point guards. A big man of Amare's offensive ability is more rare than a good point guard like Felton. 

And he is better than Lee without question.


----------



## seifer0406

It might seem silly to you because you've never played organized ball. I don't feel like talking to you because your basketball knowledge is the equivalent of an embryo version of me. When I was still inside my mother's womb I have already discovered that basketball is separated into 3 parts and the starting lineup consist of 6 positions. While you were trying to grow limbs, I was becoming the greatest basketball mind ever known. Not known to the world mind you, but known within the realms of the internet forums. The only reason why I even post on these forums is to educate the masses about proper basketball analysis.


----------



## ChosenFEW

knicks last 10 games 9-1.....

oh yeah.... I didn't really watch Phoenix much but people used to say amar'e was horrible at D..... going from david lee defense to amar'e defense is like going from scalibrine to KG


david lee was pretty much non-existant when it came to defense... he would rather let the offensive player go by and clean up on the boards if there was a miss


----------



## Truknicksfan

> david lee was pretty much non-existant when it came to defense... he would rather let the offensive player go by and clean up on the boards if there was a miss


While he was a Knick, one of the worst defenders in the league no question.


----------



## ChosenFEW

somebody should start a "is david lee better than kevin love" thread..... right now kevin love is balling out of his mind... and he has a 3 point shot..


----------



## Wade County

If Amare was on GSW - they'd be a nice ballclub. He'd fit well next to Biedrins, and you'd have Curry/Ellis/Wright at the other spots. Might not be enough balls to go round though.


----------



## Dissonance

25.3ppg on 53% shooting, 8.9rebs, 1.9blks

Absolute tear in last 5 games; 34/11.


As a Suns fan, sucks to see, but an Amare fan, I love it.


----------



## Tragedy

Dissonance said:


> 25.3ppg on 53% shooting, 8.9rebs, 1.9blks
> 
> Absolute tear in last 5 games; 34/11.
> 
> 
> As a Suns fan, sucks to see, but an Amare fan, I love it.


60% FG 86% FT shooting the past five.

Knicks on 2 five game winning streaks this season, when for years they couldn't even string together three in a row, and the knicks are 6 for 6 on the second night of back-to-backs, and 5-6 for both games of back-to-backs.

Lastly, it was Amare who spoke up after that 6 game losing streak, pissed off that the Knicks just accepted losing. Ever since then, they've won 10 out of their last 11 and they're developing a winning attitude.

They've had an easy schedule, but the Knicks are winning the games they're supposed to, and haven't been dropping games you'd understand if they lost.


----------



## Juggernaut

seifer0406 said:


> It might seem silly to you because you've never played organized ball. I don't feel like talking to you because your basketball knowledge is the equivalent of an embryo version of me. When I was still inside my mother's womb I have already discovered that basketball is separated into 3 parts and the starting lineup consist of 6 positions. While you were trying to grow limbs, I was becoming the greatest basketball mind ever known. Not known to the world mind you, but known within the realms of the internet forums. The only reason why I even post on these forums is to educate the masses about proper basketball analysis.


:2ti:

Amare > Lee

David was a good player, we loved cheering for him but Amare plays with more intensity.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

So does anyone want to rethink their position on Bosh being a better player than Stoudemire? It really isn't close.


----------



## rayz789

Notice the fans at the garden last night was chanting "mvp" "mvp" mvp" to Amare? When was the last time the knicks fans at the garden chanting that to a knicks player? Hey casey did the knicks fans ever chanting mvp to David Lee????? HAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## E.H. Munro

GrandKenyon6 said:


> So does anyone want to rethink their position on Bosh being a better player than Stoudemire? It really isn't close.


The funniest part of this year will be seeing the Raptors make the playoffs without RuBosh.


----------



## Dre

I don't know if Amare does that much better than Bosh has in Miami. Their problem is more strategic and fundamental then it is Bosh suddenly not being good. Amare might show more heart offensively but he's been a worse defender and rebounder than Bosh, so they could be worse off. 

And Bosh would be putting up big numbers in New York. No way I'd take Amare over Bosh. And of course you'll throw this years numbers and situation at me opportunistically.


----------



## Tragedy

Dre™ said:


> I don't know if Amare does that much better than Bosh has in Miami. Their problem is more strategic and fundamental then it is Bosh suddenly not being good. Amare might show more heart offensively but he's been a worse defender and rebounder than Bosh, so they could be worse off.
> 
> And Bosh would be putting up big numbers in New York. No way I'd take Amare over Bosh. And of course you'll throw this years numbers and situation at me opportunistically.


I can just base my selection off what each player says.

Because statistically it's a toss up. More rebounds with Bosh, or More points with Amare.

But I feel Amare has a leadership quality that Bosh couldn't buy in a store.


----------



## Dre

....What would give you that idea? Him this year?


----------



## JerryWest

yodurk said:


> IMO, Amare will still have big numbers, but his efficiency will drop drastically w/out Nash setting up easy buckets.
> 
> e.g., he could easily score 25 ppg, but it might only be 48% FG shooting. I doubt Ray Felton will be lobbing him multiple easy dunks every game.


Are you still holding onto your ignorant Nash conclusion?

Suns are 11 - 11 with Nash but without Amare.

Knicks are 14 - 9 with Amare. Amare doesn't need Nash to score, he can score on anyone by himself.

Amare's career true shooting percentage is 60.5. He has a 59.4% TS% with the Knicks at the moment. That's including a slow start, that ts% is raising by the day.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Something else to ponder, a lot of people have been trying to slop credit for Amare's performance off on Ray Felton, but, Felton's never been anything better than average until this season. People really need to accept that playing with Amare has made Felton a lot more effective than he's been to date. I mean, he's putting up 19/9 numbers for New York this year with efficiency that he never even approached in Charlotte.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

Dre™ said:


> I don't know if Amare does that much better than Bosh has in Miami. Their problem is more strategic and fundamental then it is Bosh suddenly not being good. Amare might show more heart offensively but he's been a worse defender and rebounder than Bosh, so they could be worse off.
> 
> And Bosh would be putting up big numbers in New York. No way I'd take Amare over Bosh. And of course you'll throw this years numbers and situation at me opportunistically.


The Heat would be much better with Stoudemire. Unlike Bosh he doesn't stop the ball and require isolations to score and his jumper is about equal to Bosh's anyway. He is a better pick & roll player, a better finisher, and better in transition. James and Stoudemire pick & rolls would be unguardable. And Bosh has not been a better defender than Stoudemire. An aggressive power player like Stoudemire would be much better for Miami than a soft jump shooter like Bosh. The only thing Bosh has done better in his career is rebound.


----------



## Tragedy

Dre™;6430102 said:


> ....What would give you that idea? Him this year?


Chris Bosh has always been more concerned with being a star (as in famous) than being great - he wants the fame and recognition that guys like Wade, Lebron and Kobe have.

There's nothing really wrong with that, but if I had to choose between Amare and Bosh now, It'd be a strike against Bosh - who I'm sure is capable of putting up his 20-10 still. 

In NY Bosh will put up big numbers, but he has no spine. He has no leadership ability.

Do you really think Chris Bosh speaks up after a 6 game losing streak about changing the culture of losing in NY?

If Chris Bosh was anything like Amare, anything like him - he'd have signed in NY, or went somewhere where he'd have the chance to prove himself as a leader, or he would have tried harder to do it in Toronto - only he had that opportunity and knew he'd rather get paid like one, and have the responsibilities of a third option.

Amare's numbers in Miami would be around 18-20 and 9 - he'd produce similar numbers to Bosh in Miami - but do you think he'd slink into the background like Bosh? No way.

There's more to judge players on than just numbers they put up.

And GrandKenyon sums it up even better than me.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

Dre™ said:


> And Bosh would be putting up big numbers in New York. No way I'd take Amare over Bosh. And of course you'll throw this years numbers and situation at me opportunistically.


I don't have to throw this year's numbers at you. I can throw their entire career numbers and accolades at you. Amare has been a superstar and All-NBA player on a perennial 50 win team while Bosh has been a loser throughout his career and has just 1 appearance on an All-NBA team.


----------



## Hyperion

Kenneth said:


> Are you still holding onto your ignorant Nash conclusion?
> 
> Suns are 11 - 11 with Nash but without Amare.
> 
> Knicks are 14 - 9 with Amare. Amare doesn't need Nash to score, he can score on anyone by himself.


Suns opponents winning percentage: 0.514
Knicks opponents winning percentage: 0.409

Suns are struggling because they didn't replace Amare with a PF and their only center has been injured for 13 games so far. The Suns have played the Lakers 2x, Spurs, Memphis 3x, Portland 3x, Miami, Orlando, Denver 2x, Utah, Chicago and Atlanta.

Knicks have played: Boston, Chicago, Denver, Atlanta, and New Orleans. Not really playing many powerhouses.


----------



## rayz789

E.H. Munro said:


> Something else to ponder, a lot of people have been trying to slop credit for Amare's performance off on Ray Felton, but, Felton's never been anything better than average until this season. People really need to accept that playing with Amare has made Felton a lot more effective than he's been to date. I mean, he's putting up 19/9 numbers for New York this year with efficiency that he never even approached in Charlotte.


And lets not forget Felton signed with The Knicks because he want to play with Amare.


----------



## futuristxen

GrandKenyon6 said:


> The Heat would be much better with Stoudemire. Unlike Bosh he doesn't stop the ball and require isolations to score and his jumper is about equal to Bosh's anyway. He is a better pick & roll player, a better finisher, and better in transition. James and Stoudemire pick & rolls would be unguardable. And Bosh has not been a better defender than Stoudemire. An aggressive power player like Stoudemire would be much better for Miami than a soft jump shooter like Bosh. The only thing Bosh has done better in his career is rebound.


I disagree. Amare wouldn't be happy being the third wheel that Bosh is. Bosh is a better jump shooter with range out to the 3 point line, and he's almost as good as Amare at finishing.

They're very close as players. But you want Amare if you need a franchise guy. You want Bosh for your third star.

Amare would also kill the Heat defensively. Bosh has been a pretty good help defender for the Heat, with a lot of potential to get better. He really moves his feet on that end, which Amare doesn't do.

It just depends on what you need--but I think Bosh is a better fit for what the Heat need.


----------



## rayz789

Kenneth said:


> Are you still holding onto your ignorant Nash conclusion?
> 
> Suns are 11 - 11 with Nash but without Amare.
> 
> Knicks are 14 - 9 with Amare. Amare doesn't need Nash to score, he can score on anyone by himself.
> 
> Amare's career true shooting percentage is 60.5. He has a 59.4% TS% with the Knicks at the moment. That's including a slow start, that ts% is raising by the day.


Nash has prove before he can play with out Amare. You people forgot 05-06 season? The same season that Nash without Amare took The Suns all the way to the western conference finals. This year the suns don't have a player that is like a good scorer on the pf position. So the 11-11 record? That's not bad for nash and his suns.


----------



## Game3525

Amare is a better fit on offense with Lebron, then Bosh is. If he gave a damn about defense the choice would be a no-brainer.


----------



## rayz789

futuristxen said:


> I disagree. Amare wouldn't be happy being the third wheel that Bosh is. Bosh is a better jump shooter with range out to the 3 point line, and he's almost as good as Amare at finishing.
> 
> They're very close as players. But you want Amare if you need a franchise guy. You want Bosh for your third star.
> 
> Amare would also kill the Heat defensively. Bosh has been a pretty good help defender for the Heat, with a lot of potential to get better. He really moves his feet on that end, which Amare doesn't do.
> 
> It just depends on what you need--but I think Bosh is a better fit for what the Heat need.


Bosh a better help defender then Amare? I way disagree.


----------



## Diable

Amare is a good pick and roll player...Wade and Bosh either aren't very good or haven't played well with Lebron in the P&R. If you have Lebron and Amare you're going to have an offensive identity. You'd be able to run the Pick and roll with those two with every expectation of scoring very efficiently and also of drawing a lot of shooting fouls on your opponent. That's really what the Heat has lacked, offensive cohesiveness.


----------



## futuristxen

While you're centering your offense on a 3/4 pick and roll--what is Wade supposed to be doing?
Again I don't think Amare could be effective as the third option. He has too big of an ego to get the treatment Bosh is getting. Bosh will quitely do his thing and allow Lebron and Wade to be in the spotlight.

Plus Bosh is younger, and doesn't have the knee injury history, or bad eyeball. So Bosh does represent better value long term as well. Even if Amare is a slightly better player right now.


----------



## Hyperion

futuristxen said:


> While you're centering your offense on a 3/4 pick and roll--what is Wade supposed to be doing?
> Again I don't think Amare could be effective as the third option. He has too big of an ego to get the treatment Bosh is getting. Bosh will quitely do his thing and allow Lebron and Wade to be in the spotlight.
> 
> Plus Bosh is younger, and doesn't have the knee injury history, or bad eyeball. So Bosh does represent better value long term as well. Even if Amare is a slightly better player right now.


This argument is stupid. These are both top level talents and would both help the team win. Neither is better than the other while both bring great skills to the table. Bosh, Wade and James wanted to play with each other, Amare wanted to play with himself.


----------



## rayz789

futuristxen said:


> While you're centering your offense on a 3/4 pick and roll--what is Wade supposed to be doing?
> Again I don't think Amare could be effective as the third option. He has too big of an ego to get the treatment Bosh is getting. Bosh will quitely do his thing and allow Lebron and Wade to be in the spotlight.
> 
> Plus Bosh is younger, and doesn't have the knee injury history, or bad eyeball. So Bosh does represent better value long term as well. Even if Amare is a slightly better player right now.


Umm how do you know Amare won't accept to be the third option if he never play with 2 other stars on the same team? Don't mention Shaq and Nash cause Shaq was way over the hill. And Shaq already accept to be the 3rd option.


----------



## rayz789

Hyperion said:


> This argument is stupid. These are both top level talents and would both help the team win. Neither is better than the other while both bring great skills to the table. Bosh, Wade and James wanted to play with each other, *Amare wanted to play with himself.*


That's a lie cause Amare signed with The Knicks in hoping Lebron will join him.


----------



## Dissonance

Yep. Amare wanted Bron to join him in NY. Amare ego talk is so overblown. He just wasn't close or as close as with them as they are with Bosh. If Miami had him in their plans over Bosh, he would've gone there and been the 3rd option and be fine with it. Miami was also always his first choice had he left PHX.


----------



## Dre

GrandKenyon6 said:


> The Heat would be much better with Stoudemire. Unlike Bosh he doesn't stop the ball and require isolations to score and his jumper is about equal to Bosh's anyway. He is a better pick & roll player, a better finisher, and better in transition. James and Stoudemire pick & rolls would be unguardable. And Bosh has not been a better defender than Stoudemire. An aggressive power player like Stoudemire would be much better for Miami than a soft jump shooter like Bosh. The only thing Bosh has done better in his career is rebound.


With LeBron and Wade's usage off the bat most of that is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is there's not any room for a third offensive option there, that's why they would've been better off spending that money on specialists instead of Bosh. 

Amare has a wider offensive arsenal than Bosh but with the same ancillary role Amare doesn't make the Heat significantly better, especially when he doesn't offer anything else at an all-star level. 

And Bosh might not be a vocal leader and misguided, but that has nothing to do with their oncourt abilities. The Raptors won 47 games before with Bosh as their best player, so Amare isn't reinventing the wheel in the context of the comparison. Amare wouldn't be some kind of voice of reason in Miami anyway, so again there'd be a negligible difference.

He's having a very good year and Bosh isn't but let's not rewrite history. 

People were saying last year they couldn't differentiate between Bosh and Gasol, now all of a sudden Amare leapfrogs both of them after 20 games. And we're talking about two guys still in their prime, so the best we've seen out of either they're still capable of.


----------



## E.H. Munro

Hyperion said:


> Amare wanted to play with himself.


He'd better watch out where he does it, he doesn't want to end up on a sex offender registry.


----------



## Ron

E.H. Munro said:


> He'd better watch out where he does it, he doesn't want to end up on a sex offender registry.


Or he can get himself pardoned 41 years from now, a la Jim Morrison.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

Amare Stoudemire is doing big things, but David Lee is making it even worse by stinking up the joint this season. He just hasn't been very good at all, and people thought playing in the Warriors up and down system would inflate his stats even more. He is just so irrelevant on the court. He plays a lot of minutes and gathers these stats, but you don't even realize he is out there a lot of times.


----------



## Hyperion

E.H. Munro said:


> He'd better watch out where he does it, he doesn't want to end up on a sex offender registry.


That's why he moved to NYC. No one cares.


----------



## rayz789

Amare 8th straight game with 30 + points. He made history as a knicks and the knicks still wins. Some saying the knicks had easy schedule? Well i call that excuse cause if i recall the knicks had almost the same easy schedule before last year but never came close to atleast 6 straight games. So casey is Lee still better then Amare????? HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I'm enjoying this.


----------



## HB

Someone tell Amare he is the MVP so far


----------



## seifer0406

My motto is to never admit defeat. I developed this attitude through my years playing organized ball. You guys obviously wouldn't understand because unlike you, I breath and fart basketball. Be humbled at my presence because when I leave I shall leave behind a void as big as the one that David Lee has left in New York.


----------



## MemphisX

Amare was crazy good in the 4th quarter today.


----------



## Game3525

This thread seems like it will be around for a very long time.


----------



## Luke

I was a big Amar'e fan until he and the Suns knocked the Lakers out two years in a row, but now that he's on a different team in the other conference I can be happy for him again. Never going to work his way back into my favorites players after what he did to the Lakers in '07, but I will admit that he's arguably the MVP at this point.

Probably won't hold up once the Knicks start playing tougher teams but whatever, he's been impressive.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

I wonder if casey will pop in next time Amare has a bad game the same night Lee has a good game. If that ever happens again.


----------



## seifer0406

I've been here all along, what are you talking about.


----------



## Da Grinch

caseyrh said:


> Unfortunateley for this comment to make sense it would... well have to make sense. There is zero chance of Amare being a MVP candidate.


bumped just 4 fun.


----------



## e-monk

here's a fairly decent MVP monitor that a guy who works at the Elias Sports Bureau came up with - early days still but here's where it stands

entering games of December 13th

1 13.60 DAL Dirk Nowitzki
2 12.69 LAL Pau Gasol
3 12.23 OKC Russell Westbrook
4 12.21 UTA Deron Williams
5 12.14 MIA LeBron James
6 11.41 BOS Kevin Garnett
7 11.18 NO Chris Paul
8 11.11 ATL Al Horford
9 10.81 NY Amare Stoudemire
10 10.47 ORL Dwight Howard
11 10.43 SA Manu Ginoboli 
12 10.25 UTA Paul Millsap
13 10.16 SA Tim Duncan
14 10.10 MIA Dwyane Wade
15 9.96 LAL Kobe Bryant


----------



## rayz789

Da Grinch said:


> bumped just 4 fun.


HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA!!!!!!!!


----------



## Tragedy

I think it's safe to say he's been run off the main forum.

I just posted in the most recent thread he's posted in, in the Bulls forum asking him to come back.

It only took what, less than 20 games? lol


----------



## rayz789

Will Casey ever come back??????? Lmfao @ Lee is better then Amare.


----------



## hroz

Amare is killing it no doubt.

But Dirk is MVP atm.


----------



## rayz789

hroz said:


> Amare is killing it no doubt.
> 
> But Dirk is MVP atm.


I think Manu deserves it a bit more imo.


----------



## hroz

No way is Manu a MVP candidate.

The Spurs of today are the closest thing to the Pistons of 5 years ago. 
They are all important you cant take one player. 

Ginobili only averages 31 mpg for heavens sake. He is the most important player on that team but if he went down the Spurs would be fine.


----------



## GrandKenyon6

It's amazing how stupid so many of you beyond Casey look in this thread.


----------



## rayz789

hroz said:


> No way is Manu a MVP candidate.
> 
> The Spurs of today are the closest thing to the Pistons of 5 years ago.
> They are all important you cant take one player.
> 
> Ginobili only averages 31 mpg for heavens sake. He is the most important player on that team but if he went down the Spurs would be fine.


Manu, Duncan, Parker are avg i think under 35 minutes per game. But out of those 3, Manu has been the man. Duncan ain't putting up the points as he use too cause of his age. But damn Manu is playing out of this world. Hell most thought in 04-05 when the spurs beat the pistons that manu should have been finals mvp.


----------



## hroz

rayz789 said:


> Manu, Duncan, Parker are avg i think under 35 minutes per game. But out of those 3, Manu has been the man. Duncan ain't putting up the points as he use too cause of his age. But damn Manu is playing out of this world. Hell most thought in 04-05 when the spurs beat the pistons that manu should have been finals mvp.


I agree Manu is their best player. 

But I refuse to believe he is the Most Valuable Player in the league to his team. Or that he could be the MVP of this league to any team. 
He is a great player no doubt. But Parker Duncan Jefferson can all explode at any time as well. Hill Blair Neal McDyess are all solid contributers thats a 8 man rotation of starters in most teams.


----------



## rayz789

So is Casey still around? Or is he hiding? Boy this thread is now freaking laughable no offense. Is Amare better then David Lee? DUH!!!!!!!!! LOL.


----------



## Dre

goofball


----------



## caseyrh

Ill just say this, without getting into it with you geniuses anymore, who are so proud of yourselves for picking Amare over Lee. Amare basically took a much more talented team then what Lee had and turned them into a .500 team... big deal. And Amare has been at _his_ best all year long. Was I wrong that Lee was better then Amare? Sure. But the fact remains that Amare is waaayyyy overrated in terms of actually helping teams win and that was pretty much my point. And if you actually look at what Lee did in New York last year compared to What Amare is doing, in terms of PER they are still very comparable seasons.


----------



## ChosenFEW

^ you have to give it to this guy for sticking to his guns.


wrong or not. One of the top 3 bromances I've seen on here


----------



## Dissonance

caseyrh said:


> Ill just say this, without getting into it with you geniuses anymore, who are so proud of yourselves for picking Amare over Lee. Amare basically took a much more talented team then what Lee had and turned them into a .500 team... big deal. And Amare has been at _his_ best all year long. Was I wrong that Lee was better then Amare? Sure. But the fact remains that Amare is waaayyyy overrated in terms of actually helping teams win and that was pretty much my point. And if you actually look at what Lee did in New York last year compared to What Amare is doing, in terms of PER they are still very comparable seasons.


You fail again.


----------



## Tragedy

> Was I wrong that Lee was better then Amare? Sure


/thread.


----------



## Dre

Stuff like this is teaching me not to argue over dumb **** on here anymore. Give it 3 months, bump it, and wait for the desperate plea to be copped trying to rewrite history.


----------



## PauloCatarino

caseyrh said:


> Ill just say this, without getting into it with you geniuses anymore, who are so proud of yourselves for picking Amare over Lee. Amare basically took a much more talented team then what Lee had and turned them into a .500 team... big deal. And Amare has been at _his_ best all year long. Was I wrong that Lee was better then Amare? Sure. But the fact remains that Amare is waaayyyy overrated in terms of actually helping teams win and that was pretty much my point. And if you actually look at what Lee did in New York last year compared to What Amare is doing, in terms of PER they are still very comparable seasons.


Just give it a rest, man. Buck up and take your beatings like a man. Don't try and do a Lebron, dude!


----------



## JerryWest

bump


----------



## JerryWest

laughing especially at the idiots that think Amare needs Nash or anyone to dominate


----------



## JT

Kenneth said:


> laughing especially at the idiots that think Amare needs Nash or anyone to dominate


I was always puzzled at that. he used to score at a high rate alongside ballhog Marbury.


----------



## seifer0406

caseyrh said:


> Ill just say this, without getting into it with you geniuses anymore





caseyrh said:


> Was I wrong that Lee was better then Amare? Sure..


Heres my question. Let's say there is an idiot. He's drooling, he's crapping his pants, his head looks like it's stapled to his left shoulder. God looks at him and gives him the ability to choose one out of two of these useful pieces of information to be added to that messed up brain of his.

Which one would it be? Which tip would help this idiot the most?

Is it not to argue with geniuses or is it the fact that Lee is not in any shape of form better than Amare?


----------



## Pay Ton

nhbadguy said:


> spam removed












Not fooling anybody, bro. Especially when part of the link says "referral=nhbadguy".


----------



## rayz789

caseyrh said:


> Ill just say this, without getting into it with you geniuses anymore, who are so proud of yourselves for picking Amare over Lee. Amare basically took a much more talented team then what Lee had and turned them into a .500 team... big deal. And Amare has been at _his_ best all year long. Was I wrong that Lee was better then Amare? Sure. But the fact remains that Amare is waaayyyy overrated in terms of actually helping teams win and that was pretty much my point. And if you actually look at what Lee did in New York last year compared to What Amare is doing, in terms of PER they are still very comparable seasons.


Much more talented team? lol. First off The Knicks basically still had the same team from last year to this year (before the melo deal). Besides Amare they added Felton who's apg was around 4 or 5 up to 9 assist. <<<Most is cause he pass the ball to Amare. Felton improve big time this season in which his stats are career ones. Lee last year had Galo, Chandler, Dougles. And if i recall Felton was a free agent. Now tell me casey would Felton still signed a deal with the knicks if Amare wasn't there in which David Lee still was there???? Would Melo have said he wants to play so bad with the knicks in which he started saying in the offseason if Amare was still with the suns??? Face it casey you're way way way way wrong for saying Lee is a better player then Amare.


----------



## rayz789

JT said:


> I was always puzzled at that. he used to score at a high rate alongside ballhog Marbury.


And Amare was the rookie of the year.


----------



## jayk009

Amare is a better scorer than David Lee, that is something that everyone here agrees on. In fact, he is an elite scorer, one of the best in the league. 

One thing I still wonder is... is he a franchise/superstar type player, or just an all-star calibre type of player? There is a difference, and I don't think he can ever be considered a superstar/franchise player in the league. 

Look at any franchise player in the league..if they have an above average supporting cast they will win alot of games, and I think we can safely say that Amare had an above average supporting cast before the Melo trade. If anything we can say that the supporting cast wasn't horrible. 

The Knicks record before the Melo trade was hovering around .500, that tells me that Amare is not a franchise player. A very good player yes, but wouldn't you say he should be classified on the same level as say...an Andrew Bogut?

The problem I have is fans thinking he is in the top tier of players in the league when his ceiling is in the 2nd tier of all stars. 

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but what do you think of this?


----------



## Dre

I don't think there's a question that he's not a franchise player. He doesn't defend or rebound enough. I don't know anyone on here that's implied he belongs on a Kobe, LeBron, Dwight, Paul tier. 

He's a poor man's version of Dirk in terms of being right on the borderline of franchise status, except Dirk has an MVP and 60 win seasons.


----------



## jayk009

I think alot of people here consider him a top tier player right now. 

But people here are so quick to proclaim someone as the greatest player ever when they are having a good season and then forget about them completely when they have a slightly bad season or are injured for a little bit. 

I remember people last year were just completely writing off KG and saying he was done and no longer effective, and now all of a sudden people say he's good again. 

Brandon Jennings had a good 3 week stretch and people were calling him a top pg. 

People were talking **** about Wade when he was injured saying how he's not an elite player.

Also, people already forgot about how dominant Yao Ming was. 

Even Amare when he was injured, people were hopping off the bandwagon. I bet if he was injured and David Lee was playing well the majority would say David Lee was a better player even if they were both healthy. 


Right now Amare is having a good year and the sheeple are on his side, last year people were saying Chris Bosh was an elite player, and now the trend is that hes overrated. 

People's opinions are swayed so easily it's ridiculous.

Not saying everyone's like this, but there are alot of people like this.


----------



## Dissonance

That's just typical BBF for ya though.


----------



## e-monk

jayk009 said:


> Also, people already forgot about how dominant Yao Ming was.


the problem for Ming was/is that he was only top tier dominant in a couple seasons - 05-06 and 06-07 (maybe just 06-07) and in both those seasons he was hurt for extended periods - in his most statistically dominant season - 06-07 - when he was averaging 25/9 he only played 48 games

so at least for me it's like yeah he was great but...


----------



## Da Grinch

jayk009 said:


> I think alot of people here consider him a top tier player right now.
> 
> But people here are so quick to proclaim someone as the greatest player ever when they are having a good season and then forget about them completely when they have a slightly bad season or are injured for a little bit.
> 
> I remember people last year were just completely writing off KG and saying he was done and no longer effective, and now all of a sudden people say he's good again.
> 
> Brandon Jennings had a good 3 week stretch and people were calling him a top pg.
> 
> People were talking **** about Wade when he was injured saying how he's not an elite player.
> 
> Also, people already forgot about how dominant Yao Ming was.
> 
> Even Amare when he was injured, people were hopping off the bandwagon. I bet if he was injured and David Lee was playing well the majority would say David Lee was a better player even if they were both healthy.
> 
> 
> Right now Amare is having a good year and the sheeple are on his side, last year people were saying Chris Bosh was an elite player, and now the trend is that hes overrated.
> 
> People's opinions are swayed so easily it's ridiculous.
> 
> Not saying everyone's like this, but there are alot of people like this.


the thing is he isn't overrated , or really underrated in the greater sense , he is just doing it on a bigger stage .

he has been all nba or all nba 2nd team in 4 of the last 6 seasons (the 2 seasons he didn't he missed alot of games due to injury) he has been considered a top 10 player for quite some time...now people know it has nothing to do with nash , who is an excellent pg and it made stoudamire's job easier but he great in his own right.

is he lebron kobe or duncan ?

no, but those guys are all time greats, top 5 or better at their positions in history but he is good enough to be a team's best player and have a good chance to be a good team and basically for this thread's purpose david lee is not ...he is the 3rd or 4th best player on the warriors and they still are not a good team , swap in amare and he would be their best player and they would be a team in the playoffs.

the whole thing about defense/rebounding is garbage either you have the level of impact to be a franchise player or you dont nobody said boo to magic because he wasn't a lockdown defender, but he was a dominant player, same goes for nash, if lebron decided today he no longer cared about defense he wouldn't cease to be one, i dont think you can say the knicks are a complete team by any stretch , they dont have a center or a 2 guard (fields is really a 3)

yao due to injuries is more of a bill walton type , a franchise center , whom his franchise couldn't count on to stay healthy


----------



## Floods

jayk009 said:


> Brandon Jennings had a good 3 week stretch and people were calling him a top pg.


Ohhhh that was fun.


----------



## Sir Patchwork

jayk009 said:


> People's opinions are swayed so easily it's ridiculous.


I actually think this thread is the opposite of that. Casey was trying to prove David Lee was better than Amare using strictly one season, and statistics, and everyone else wasn't buying it because of Amare's body of work throughout his career. It's David Lee that had the one good year, and one or two people were swayed by that, but the majority still believed that Amare was superior regardless of what one season of statistics might indicate. 

I don't think your statement is wrong, it just doesn't apply in this case. This was a case of people actually looking at the big picture.


----------



## seifer0406

It's another case of stats being just stats. If guys can be dissected solely on stats then teams wouldn't need scouting reports on players. It's quite obvious that Amare is on another level talent wise than David Lee.

As for the Knicks playing .500 ball you also have to consider that the Suns are playing .500 ball. You can't knock one side and forget the other. The fact that one team is clearly playing better than last year while the other is clearly playing worse at least shows you that this notion that Amare makes limited impact to the game outcome is false.

The bottom line is this thread is about comparing Amare to David Lee. We're not comparing Amare to Lebron or prime Duncan or prime Shaq. You can criticize Amare until the cows come home but the fact is Lee is still a tier or 2 below him. There is no reason for this thread to even go pass 5 pages. For it to go 20+ just shows the willpower of a desperate poster trying to push a ridiculous point across. I'm pretty sure 5 posts into this argument the guy already realized that it was a ridiculous opinion. I'm just amazed that it took him 32 pages to finally admit defeat.


----------



## Tom

I think Tyler is better that the both of them:laugh:


----------



## caseyrh

All I know is its awesome how average the knicks are.

This was never really about stats for me. It was actually kinda the opposite, it was about 2 guys who only contribute statistically. Neither one has much of an impact on a team winning. And since both guys are just empty stat players we might as well compare them statistically.

All you have to do is look at how much better Denver is playing with the NY guys then Amare did.

There are a bunch of players in the NBA that have more of an impact on a team winning then STAT. There just aren't a lot of guys that are capable of putting up stats like STAT. Sure when Lee was in NY in that offense he was able to put up big stats also. And that was kinda the whole point.

New York being 33 and 31 with Amare in the lineup (they won the one game he didnt play) does nothing to really disprove my whole point. They are a completely mediocre team. Good chance they get the 7th spot in the east. Big deal. Not impressed. I don't care how much some of you guys fawn over him. 

Defense, rebounding, passing are also important. Some of you get it, some of you don't, don't let the David Lee part of this discussion derail you from what my main point was. Amare is nothing but a selfish and lazy stat player. It wasn't my choice to compare him to Lee, but someone else did and I got a little carried away with boosting Lee because of my distaste for Amare's game. Give me guys like Horford and Noah any day of the week over Amare.


----------



## Diable

I'd say that Amare is the best player on an average team. At best David Lee is the third best player on a below average team.


----------



## caseyrh

bump


----------



## Dre

Incredibly opportunistic and lame. Amare just might be on the downside of his career, at the time this was a heated thread it wasn't even a ****ing question. 

You think they'd have been better off with Lee?


----------



## hobojoe




----------



## JonMatrix

Amare has injured most of the time that Melo has been on the team. Add that to the fact that their games don't mesh together, at all. I only saw a little of game 6. But in game 5, the only guys that passed the ball to Amare were Chandler, Fields, and Baron. Melo and JR Smith both ignored him. Not saying there is bad blood or anything, but they just don't have any chemistry...at all. And it doesn't seem like there is any interest in building it.

If they can find someone to take his contract, the Knicks will trade him this summer. They've already tried it (offered him to Stern for CP3).


----------



## seifer0406

who's David Lee again?


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> who's David Lee again?


just a 20 and 10 player getting paid 8 mil or so less then amare, and a lot younger.


----------



## Luke

He's not very good.


----------



## Dre

Sir Patchwork said:


> I wonder if casey will pop in next time Amare has a bad game the same night Lee has a good game. If that ever happens again.


This would apply..except that Lee's team stopped playing 2 weeks ago


----------



## caseyrh

Dre said:


> This would apply..except that Lee's team stopped playing 2 weeks ago


2 weeks ago... lol. Thats how we measure team success now, if you are able to make it 2 weeks longer then someone elses team. Hilarious.


----------



## Dre

Yeah, umm if that 2 week threshold runs over the end of the season and start of the playoffs, that's a good measure of team success :gay:


----------



## Diable

Lee would be a better fit for this Knicks team than Amare I guess. He could pad his rebounding stats while Melo took 25 to 35 shots every night. He does play even worse 'defense' than Amare, if you're generous enough to give Lee credit for playing defense at all. 

Amare could still be a star player in the proper situation with a roster that got him the sort of looks he needs, but that isn't happening with the Knicks and his contract is going to keep him in NY for the foreseeable future.


----------



## caseyrh

Diable said:


> Lee would be a better fit for this Knicks team than Amare I guess. He could pad his rebounding stats while Melo took 25 to 35 shots every night. He does play even worse 'defense' than Amare, if you're generous enough to give Lee credit for playing defense at all.
> 
> Amare could still be a star player in the proper situation with a roster that got him the sort of looks he needs, but that isn't happening with the Knicks and his contract is going to keep him in NY for the foreseeable future.


Knicks are a lot better without him. so theres that.


----------



## Adam

I remember when this guy used to be a regular poster on this forum. Then the Conference Finals happened last year.


----------



## caseyrh

Dre said:


> Yeah, umm if that 2 week threshold runs over the end of the season and start of the playoffs, that's a good measure of team success :gay:


getting bounced in 5 games of the first round of the playoffs on a team that includes melo and chandler, is no grand accomplishment. But maybe we have different standards.


----------



## Dre

Where did I say "grand accomplishment"

Getting to the playoffs is a success relative to a team scouting lottery picks in March like the Warriors were

Let's talk about what Amare did for them the Melo-less portion of last year vs. what Lee did for them the year before that? Or do you not want to have that conversation


----------



## caseyrh

Adam said:


> I remember when this guy used to be a regular poster on this forum. Then the Conference Finals happened last year.


Had more to do with a few bulls forum posters that have been bashing the bulls forever and me getting sick of reading it, then the conference finals. Also had a daughter and had a lot less time for it anyways.


----------



## rayz789

Lmao @ bringing back this thread. Look ever since melo became a knicks amare ppg has been very low. When you have a superstar that mostly hog the ball and wont pass like melo, another star like amare wont get much touches. Lee wont get much touches either but i guess guys like casey dont think so.


----------



## caseyrh

Dre said:


> Where did I say "grand accomplishment"
> 
> Getting to the playoffs is a success relative to a team scouting lottery picks in March like the Warriors were
> 
> Let's talk about what Amare did for them the Melo-less portion of last year vs. what Lee did for them the year before that? Or do you not want to have that conversation


Im not really in it for Lee. Just glad to see Amare turn a team with great talent into a playoff bottom feeder almost single handidly. Can you imagine if the Knicks could spend that 20 mil in cap space on players that made their team Better? Wow! DPOY Chandler +Melo+ Lin+Shumpert+++ And 20 Mil to spend? Could have been something special...

Hopefully you guys understand the joke of a player that Amare is.


----------



## Adam

caseyrh said:


> Had more to do with a few bulls forum posters that have been bashing the bulls forever and me getting sick of reading it, then the conference finals. Also had a daughter and had a lot less time for it anyways.


You don't believe that, and I don't believe that. You ran away.


----------



## R-Star

caseyrh said:


> Im not really in it for Lee. Just glad to see Amare turn a team with great talent into a playoff bottom feeder almost single handidly. Can you imagine if the Knicks could spend that 20 mil in cap space on players that made their team Better? Wow! DPOY Chandler +Melo+ Lin+Shumpert+++ And 20 Mil to spend? Could have been something special...
> 
> Hopefully you guys understand the joke of a player that Amare is.


They didn't have Lin or Shumpert in the playoffs though. If they did the series probably would have gone another game or two.


----------



## rayz789

Look example melo was 15-31 and only had 1 damn assist while amare only took 7 shots in which he made 4. I mean 7 attempts to 31 attempts? You think lee can score more then amare if he has melo on his team? HELL NO!!


----------



## R-Star

Adam said:


> You don't believe that, and I don't believe that. You ran away.


Are you calling someone out for running away Adam?


Oh look. Now Adam ran away.


----------



## Dre

I'm trying to figure out how you can say this when the last time Amare was the unquestioned best player on the Knicks they were firmly in the mid tier of the East yet _he's_ the reason they turned into a "playoff bottom feeder"


----------



## caseyrh

R-Star said:


> They didn't have Lin or Shumpert in the playoffs though. If they did the series probably would have gone another game or two.


maybe. who cares though Amare is a cancer thats all that matters.Making it to 6 games in the first round is nothing to be proud of anyways. Fake toughguy, no heart, no D, no rebounding, no passing, just pads stats wherever he can and could care less about winning.

Your boy (if healthy) will probably make GS a better team then NY next year as well. So that arguement of NY being better then GS will most likeley be dead as well.


----------



## caseyrh

Dre said:


> I'm trying to figure out how you can say this when the last time Amare was the unquestioned best player on the Knicks they were firmly in the mid tier of the East yet _he's_ the reason they turned into a "playoff bottom feeder"


Look at their record with Amare and Without AMare this season. If they kept the same winning percenatge W/O Amare they would be much higher in the playoff picture.


----------



## Adam

R-Star said:


> Are you calling someone out for running away Adam?
> 
> 
> Oh look. Now Adam ran away.


Not only will I not run away, I'll ask you to clarify this. What are you referring to?


----------



## R-Star

caseyrh said:


> maybe. who cares though Amare is a cancer thats all that matters.Making it to 6 games in the first round is nothing to be proud of anyways. Fake toughguy, no heart, no D, no rebounding, no passing, just pads stats wherever he can and could care less about winning.
> 
> Your boy (if healthy) will probably make GS a better team then NY next year as well. So that arguement of NY being better then GS will most likeley be dead as well.


Golden State better than a Knicks team with a healthy Lin and Shumpert? I highly doubt that man.

And the Knicks lost to the hands down favorite to win the title this year.

I don't even like Amare, but you obviously have an axe to grind.


----------



## rayz789

R-Star said:


> They didn't have Lin or Shumpert in the playoffs though. If they did the series probably would have gone another game or two.


I dont think it matters. Shumpert is a real good rookie but he wont help that much in all honesty and lin exposed himself of being a very soft pg. I mean damn chambers was shutting down on lin badly in the regular season. Lin weakness is he's soft and cant go to his left.


----------



## R-Star

Adam said:


> Not only will I not run away, I'll ask you to clarify this. What are you referring to? edited



The fact that that's what you're known for around here? Running away?

Hey Adam, the no league for old men thread is calling. Among other threads you've run from.


Classy insult by the way, Mr Moderator. That's always kind of been a joke hasn't it? You being a moderator I mean.


----------



## R-Star

rayz789 said:


> I dont think it matters. Shumpert is a real good rookie but he wont help that much in all honesty and lin exposed himself of being a very soft pg. I mean damn chambers was shutting down on lin badly in the regular season. Lin weakness is he's soft and cant go to his left.


The game Miami played them, they focused all their effort on shutting down Lin. He was their gameplan. That would have opened the floor for Melo and Amare.

And Shumpert, while a rookie, is a hell of a defender and would have helped to slow down Wade.

Having them both on the floor would have made a world of difference on both ends of the floor.


----------



## Adam

R-Star said:


> The fact that that's what you're known for around here? Running away?
> 
> Hey Adam, the no league for old men thread is calling. Among other threads you run from.
> 
> 
> Classy insult by the way, Mr Moderator. That's always kind of been a joke hasn't it? You being a moderator I mean.


Bump it if you want. How am I running? I'm still waiting for an explanation of that. Frankly, I don't know why you're even around here this time of year. It's the playoffs. We don't need your "New York will beat Miami" Canuckian analysis.


----------



## rayz789

Lol i cant believe casey is blaming this series lost to amare. Amare isnt attempting 30 pergame and amare isnt getting the ball more then marshmelo. Look before melo went to the knicks, amare was playing out of his mind until the trade that got melo and amare scoring went down low cause of melo ballhogging. It's not so hard to figure that out.


----------



## rayz789

R-Star said:


> The game Miami played them, they focused all their effort on shutting down Lin. He was their gameplan. That would have opened the floor for Melo and Amare.
> 
> And Shumpert, while a rookie, is a hell of a defender and would have helped to slow down Wade.
> 
> Having them both on the floor would have made a world of difference on both ends of the floor.


Wade really hasnt play great this series anyway. Lebron was playing out of his mind in this series. And the heat dont need help defenders to guard lin cause lin got shutdown easily by freaking chambers.


----------



## R-Star

Adam said:


> Bump it if you want. How am I running? I'm still waiting for an explanation of that. Frankly, I don't know why you're even around here this time of year. It's the playoffs. We don't need your "New York will beat Miami" Canuckian analysis.


I actually post in the gameday threads Adam. You aren't allowed to leave the Miami forum due to your posting style.

And your "thread" has been clarified many times, by many different posters. You came in with dip shit math that was laughed at by anyone who can put numbers together, you said Kobe was done (2nd in league scoring this year) and Chris Paul was soon to follow (playing as the top pg in the playoffs right now), not to mention you said Paul doesn't matter since you could just draft Norris Cole (a joke of a player).

Run away again Adam. Save yourself at least a couple of laughs.


----------



## Dre

Be easy y'all


----------



## R-Star

rayz789 said:


> Wade really hasnt play great this series anyway. Lebron was playing out of his mind in this series. And the heat dont need help defenders to guard lin cause lin got shutdown easily by freaking chambers.


You didn't watch the game if you think Lin was shutdown by Chalmers. Lin was shut down by multiple coverage, and Miami blocking his passing lanes. He was their focal point.

And Wade has been picking the Knicks apart. To say putting a better defender on him wouldn't help is ridiculous.


----------



## caseyrh

R-Star said:


> Golden State better than a Knicks team with a healthy Lin and Shumpert? I highly doubt that man.
> 
> And the Knicks lost to the hands down favorite to win the title this year.
> 
> I don't even like Amare, but you obviously have an axe to grind.


Remember that Curry was down almost all year. Curry is a great talent. If Bogut can stay Healthy he will have a huge impact. NY has more talent and a better coach, But Amare is everything thats wrong with basketball I say he brings them down again if hes healthy all year.

I do have a huge axe to grind. Can't stand Amare, I can admit it. And Although everyone here disagrees with me I do feel like this season has justified my stance in this thread in almost every imaginable way.

Knicks were 14-5 (I believe so) without Amare. Thats Amazing, that winning percentage would give them the third best winning percentage in the league. The winning percentage with him would put your bucks in the playoffs and Amare out. Thank god he missed 19 games of a 66 game season. Else the knicks would have been done 2 weeks ago also


----------



## rayz789

Also lin is like mr turnover in which he turn the ball over way too much. And he's mostly shoot first and pass second cause he trys to score alot on the inside in which those gets him turnovers.


----------



## R-Star

caseyrh said:


> Remember that Curry was down almost all year. Curry is a great talent. If Bogut can stay Healthy he will have a huge impact. NY has more talent and a better coach, But Amare is everything thats wrong with basketball I say he brings them down again if hes healthy all year.
> 
> I do have a huge axe to grind. Can't stand Amare, I can admit it. And Although everyone here disagrees with me I do feel like this season has justified my stance in this thread in almost every imaginable way.
> 
> Knicks were 14-5 (I believe so) without Amare. Thats Amazing, that winning percentage would give them the third best winning percentage in the league. The winning percentage with him would put your bucks in the playoffs and Amare out. Thank god he missed 19 games of a 66 game season. Else the knicks would have been done 2 weeks ago also


Why are they my Bucks?

And if you're counting on Curry and Bogut to both be healthy next year, I hope you spend the summer with both fingers crossed.


----------



## Adam

R-Star said:


> I actually post in the gameday threads Adam. You aren't allowed to leave the Miami forum due to your posting style.
> 
> And your "thread" has been clarified many times, by many different posters. You came in with dip shit math that was laughed at by anyone who can put numbers together, you said Kobe was done (2nd in league scoring this year) and Chris Paul was soon to follow (playing as the top pg in the playoffs right now), not to mention you said Paul doesn't matter since you could just draft Norris Cole (a joke of a player).
> 
> Run away again Adam. Save yourself at least a couple of laughs.


Your gimmick is tired. When you type nonsense which we both know is inaccurate are you expecting to persuade the 10 people who will read this post? P.s. half of them don't even like you.


----------



## rayz789

R-Star said:


> You didn't watch the game if you think Lin was shutdown by Chalmers. Lin was shut down by multiple coverage, and Miami blocking his passing lanes. He was their focal point.
> 
> And Wade has been picking the Knicks apart. To say putting a better defender on him wouldn't help is ridiculous.


No it wouldnt cause lebron again was playing out of his mind. And lin was shut down by chambers. Sure other players help but it was mostly chambers that shut down lin.


----------



## caseyrh

R-Star said:


> Why are they my Bucks?
> 
> And if you're counting on Curry and Bogut to both be healthy next year, I hope you spend the summer with both fingers crossed.


thought you were a bucks fan my bad. Now I remember your a pacer fan. But you do like Bogut right?


----------



## R-Star

Adam said:


> Your gimmick is tired. When you type nonsense which we both know is inaccurate are you expecting to persuade the 10 people who will read this post? P.s. half of them don't even like you.


So your response is to attempt personal attacks and to change the subject?

You know, pretty soon I might start to publicly question why exactly a poster of your caliber is allowed to moderate Adam.

But before that, you can respond to posts without trying to twist the discussion in another direction. Or don't post. Its pretty simple.


----------



## R-Star

caseyrh said:


> thought you were a bucks fan my bad. Now I remember your a pacer fan. But you do like Bogut right?


No worries. 

I am a fan, but expected more out of him health wise.


----------



## caseyrh

knicks were also 3-1 without Amare last year but whos counting...


----------



## Dre

Yeah because 4 games is a credible sample size. Who were there opponents those nights

And what was the Knicks' record with Amare but no Carmelo? The problem with that roster is clearly that they can't play together without a very good point guard, and even still it's a stretch

And are you going on record that the Warriors will be better than the Knicks? And you can't use the injury excuse next year because we're talking about Curry with the bum ankle and Bogut who can never stay healthy..that's almost like predicting Oden will do numbers next year then saying "well he was injured" when he doesn't..anyone could've told you that was coming. Bogut and Curry's inconsistent health is damn near apart of their skillset. I worry about Curry's ankle


----------



## R-Star

rayz789 said:


> No it wouldnt cause lebron again was playing out of his mind. And lin was shut down by chambers. Sure other players help but it was mostly chambers that shut down lin.


You aren't making any sense. Putting a better defender on Wade helps. It doesn't "not help".

And Lebron played "out of his mind" sometimes. Other times he was invisible for stretches. 

And again, I watched that game, Miami set their defensive strategy up to shut down Lin and make a statement, and it worked. Melo wasn't on the floor. If he was they wouldn't have been able to put so much coverage on Lin and his passing lanes. Just because there isn't two men directly in front of Lin waving their hands at him doesn't mean he isn't getting multiple coverage.


----------



## Adam

R-Star said:


> So your response is to attempt personal attacks and to change the subject?
> 
> You know, pretty soon I might start to publicly question why exactly a poster of your caliber is allowed to moderate Adam.
> 
> But before that, you can respond to posts without trying to twist the discussion in another direction. Or don't post. Its pretty simple.


Question all you want. It has nothing to do with you. You must be pretty jealous because that's the third time in this thread you have resorted to questioning my modship or playing the injured party in an argument you started. It clearly has you pretty upset that I'm mod and you're not. edit


----------



## King Joseus

Cool it you two.


----------



## R-Star

King Joseus said:


> Cool it you two.


I'm not the one throwing insults KJ.

You guys need to have an honest discussion on the mod board about this guy.


----------



## Noyze

> Is Amare better than David Lee?


Nope


----------



## R-Star

Adam said:


> Question all you want. It has nothing to do with you. You must be pretty jealous because that's the third time in this thread you have resorted to questioning my modship or playing the injured party in an argument you started. It clearly has you pretty upset that I'm mod and you're not. edit


I was a mod before you joined Adam, and have been offered spots as a mod multiple times and turned them down years ago. I wouldn't work out as a mod these days, myself and the management understand that.

Speaking of my wife, she's currently 6 months pregnant and we expect our child on August 31st. In preparation of my wife becoming a house wife, I decided to quit Halliburton and start my own consulting company. Russell Drilling Fluid Consulting. My current day rate is $1000 a day. I'm actually at work right now.

Thank you for your concern though.


----------



## Dre

Anything that doesn't have something related to Amare or Lee is about to be deleted if you keep this up

I shouldn't have to say this to someone in red either


----------



## caseyrh

Dre said:


> Yeah because 4 games is a credible sample size. Who were there opponents those nights
> 
> And what was the Knicks' record with Amare but no Carmelo? The problem with that roster is clearly that they can't play together without a very good point guard, and even still it's a stretch


only team they lost to in that 4 game stretch was to chicago. But its more then 4 games isnt it? Its actually 23 games as a knick. 17-6 in those 23 games. Pretty crazy for a mediocre team that is actually 3 games _under_ .500 with their "best player" over the last 2 years, to be 11 games over .500 without their best player in the last 2 years. Is that a small sample size as well???

Amare on the knicks so far has produced a sub .500 team. Meanwhile we are gassing them up for making the playoffs twice? How much of that has been because of Amare?


----------



## R-Star

Dre said:


> Anything that doesn't have something related to Amare or Lee is about to be deleted if you keep this up
> 
> I shouldn't have to say this to someone in red either


No worries, I'm done.

One last note though, I've actually been posting on Amare and the Knicks. Adam came in to insult another posters, and then turned on a personal insult riddled rant on me when I called him out on it. He then ignored the warning of two of his peers to cool it. As he always does.

That's all I'll say on the matter.


----------



## rayz789

R-Star said:


> You aren't making any sense. Putting a better defender on Wade helps. It doesn't "not help".
> 
> And Lebron played "out of his mind" sometimes. Other times he was invisible for stretches.
> 
> And again, I watched that game, Miami set their defensive strategy up to shut down Lin and make a statement, and it worked. *Melo wasn't on the floor.* If he was they wouldn't have been able to put so much coverage on Lin and his passing lanes. Just because there isn't two men directly in front of Lin waving their hands at him doesn't mean he isn't getting multiple coverage.


Lmfao and you say you watch that game? Lin, Amare, Melo, Chandler all play that game vs the heat in the regular season back in february. Lin was 1-11. I repeat 1-11. Lin got 8 turnovers in which chambers got 2 easy steals on lin in which the first one was in the 1st quarter with 10 minutes left to go before the 2nd quarter lol.


----------



## R-Star

caseyrh said:


> only team they lost to in that 4 game stretch was to chicago. But its more then 4 games isnt it? Its actually 23 games as a knick. 17-6 in those 23 games. Pretty crazy for a mediocre team that is actually 3 games _under_ .500 with their "best player" over the last 2 years, to be 11 games over .500 without their best player in the last 2 years. Is that a small sample size as well???
> 
> Amare on the knicks so far has produced a sub .500 team. Meanwhile we are gassing them up for making the playoffs twice? How much of that has been because of Amare?


I will agree that I don't think Melo and Amare work well together. But its a moot point. Both are stuck on that team for a while now.


----------



## Dre

caseyrh said:


> only team they lost to in that 4 game stretch was to chicago. But its more then 4 games isnt it? Its actually 23 games as a knick. 17-6 in those 23 games. Pretty crazy for a mediocre team that is actually 3 games _under_ .500 with their "best player" over the last 2 years, to be 11 games over .500 without their best player in the last 2 years. Is that a small sample size as well???
> 
> Amare on the knicks so far has produced a sub .500 team. Meanwhile we are gassing them up for making the playoffs twice? How much of that has been because of Amare?


The Knicks essentially function like the same team with just Amare or just Carmelo, so I wouldn't be surprised at skewed records.

But if you're trying to say Amare isn't a primary factor for them making the playoffs this year and last you're fooling yourself or have an "axe to grind" like you admitted. I don't see the point in continuing this with a guy who admitted he's biased

Also, if you know they lost to Chicago then tell me who they beat in that stretch? Because Amare was playing at a level that would've got him MVP votes the first half of last season, I find it hard to believe they were a better team without him.


----------



## R-Star

rayz789 said:


> Lmfao and you say you watch that game? Lin, Amare, Melo, Chandler all play that game vs the heat in the regular season back in february. Lin was 1-11. I repeat 1-11. Lin got 8 turnovers in which chambers got 2 easy steals on lin in which the first one was in the 1st quarter with 10 minutes left to go before the 2nd quarter lol.


Just looked back, you're right. For some reason I thought he wasn't out there for that game. He shot 7 for 20 so hopefully that helps as to why I forgot about him.


----------



## Dre

At that point IIRC Carmelo was just getting back from that injury and wasn't "100%"


----------



## R-Star

Dre said:


> At that point IIRC Carmelo was just getting back from that injury and wasn't "100%"


I think it was his first or second game back now that I remember it, and I was thinking they wouldn't work well together with Lin stealing the spotlight.

They didn't.

They seemed to play better together before Lin went down though.


----------



## rayz789

Dre said:


> At that point IIRC Carmelo was just getting back from that injury and wasn't "100%"


It was melo third game back.


----------



## rayz789

Melo has a history of not making his team mates better in which is why he only pass the first round once in his career. And lets not forget when ai was traded to the nuggets to team with melo, mostly everyone thought the nuggets would be a to contender team in the west but they were soo wrong and i knew that duo wouldnt work cause both are ballhoggers. They both shoot too much and wont pass to each other alot. This is like basically the same thing with melo and amare. There's 2 things i'll give lee advantage over amare is he's a better rebounder and a better passer but he aint close to a better scorer then amare and is not a better defender then amare in which casey likes to think other wise.I bet all my money if lee was there with the knicks instead of amare, lee wont get many touches cause melo like he always does hog the damn ball.


----------



## Dre

What does "make your teammates" better mean to you, because I feel like if a GM put the perfect set of complementary players around him the defensive attention he commands would open things up for them. 

It's hard to "open things up" for someone who's just going to take the ball and iso on the other side of the court.

The question is do you feel like his scoring ability is strong enough to make you want to invest in the perfect team for him? He's one of those players with a narrow window of teammates that he can coalesce with...and it doesn't help that he doesn't play D and can have a bad attitude. 

And guess what, you didn't know if I was talking about Melo or Amare because it applies to both...


----------



## Adam

caseyrh said:


> Im not really in it for Lee. Just glad to see Amare turn a team with great talent into a playoff bottom feeder almost single handidly. Can you imagine if the Knicks could spend that 20 mil in cap space on players that made their team Better? Wow! DPOY Chandler +Melo+ Lin+Shumpert+++ And 20 Mil to spend? Could have been something special...
> 
> Hopefully you guys understand the joke of a player that Amare is.


Back in 2009 David Lee and Al Harrington were publicly happy that they were putting up big numbers even though the team was losing. Mark Jackson and Jeff Van Gundy called them out for it. So why is David Lee a winner and Amare is a loser? Amare came back from multiple microfractures, an eye injury, and has played well in the playoffs. How is he a joke? He's not the best player in the league but he's pretty good, and why David Lee?


----------



## R-Star

One of the main problems that hasn't been talked about also is that the Knicks have 3 alpha dogs. 2 that are actualy big time scoring options..... and JR Smith. Take that chucker off the team and the Knicks are worlds better just not having him there.

Tough to win a game in the playoffs when Smith comes down the floor with the ball, and decides its a good idea to just pop up and jack a 3 without even attempting to set up the offense. I'm surprised anyone even passes him the ball. I was hoping and hoping he'd get froze out.


----------



## Dre

I remember during the game Sunday after Melo hit that last straightaway 3 with like 30 seconds left he and JR were discussing something...I was like what could they be upset for...a co worker I was watching the game with pointed out JR thought he was open...

I'm like seriously? You think you deserve the shot over Carmelo, and not only that he hits the shot and you look unhappy and are trying to tell him you were open?

The JR Smith signing only made (a little) sense when D'Antoni was there and the whole 6 seconds or less was in effect and their were shots for everybody...but a guy with no concept of offensive basketball like Woodson can't handle that just putting JR in the doghouse. That's why JR will probably be off to Minnesota or somewhere he can just jack shots up. Give his shots to Novak


----------



## seifer0406

I don't think caseyrh was ever the same after this thread. What exactly are you arguing? Didn't you already admit that you were wrong about Amare like a year ago? Now you're back on the Lee wagon again?

Here, let's refresh your memory



caseyrh said:


> *Was I wrong that Lee was better then Amare? Sure.*


Look, Amare had a great year last year. You admitted you were wrong. He didn't have a good year this year, and now you're claiming victory. Some blame the season on Amare, some blame Melo, some blame the PG situation, some blame the lockout, the fact is he had a bad year. If you're going to come in and claim that you were right all along, (which is retarded considering you admitted you were wrong) just be prepared to come in next year and say you're wrong again if he has a bounce back season.

If you want to read some facts in this thread, find it in the first 15 pages where I said that none of this matters because Lee will fade into obscurity as he plays for *nothing* in Golden State. He played for nothing last year, he played for nothing this year, he's playing for nothing next year, the year after that, so on and so forth.


----------



## Dre

Ouch


----------



## rayz789

seifer0406 said:


> I don't think caseyrh was ever the same after this thread. What exactly are you arguing? Didn't you already admit that you were wrong about Amare like a year ago? Now you're back on the Lee wagon again?
> 
> Here, let's refresh your memory
> 
> 
> 
> Look, Amare had a great year last year. You admitted you were wrong. He didn't have a good year this year, and now you're claiming victory. Some blame the season on Amare, some blame Melo, some blame the PG situation, some blame the lockout, the fact is he had a bad year. If you're going to come in and claim that you were right all along, (which is retarded considering you admitted you were wrong) just be prepared to come in next year and say you're wrong again if he has a bounce back season.
> 
> If you want to read some facts in this thread, find it in the first 15 pages where I said that none of this matters because Lee will fade into obscurity as he plays for *nothing* in Golden State. He played for nothing last year, he played for nothing this year, he's playing for nothing next year, the year after that, so on and so forth.


Lmao. I actually forgot he admit that he was wrong about lee being better then amare. Now after amare had a bad year (injuries and with the passing of his family member) and the knicks losing game 5 to the heat, casey is being back saying amare is a cancer and that he was right all along? I think the reason the knicks lost this series is 2 things, they didnt have a true playmaking prime pg and imo cause melo was hogging the ball WAY too much.


----------



## seifer0406

btw, I think Ricky Rubio is better than Kobe. Laugh now but you will regret it in 6 years.


----------



## rayz789

R-Star said:


> One of the main problems that hasn't been talked about also is that the Knicks have 3 alpha dogs. 2 that are actualy big time scoring options..... and JR Smith. Take that chucker off the team and the Knicks are worlds better just not having him there.
> 
> Tough to win a game in the playoffs when Smith comes down the floor with the ball, and decides its a good idea to just pop up and jack a 3 without even attempting to set up the offense. I'm surprised anyone even passes him the ball. I was hoping and hoping he'd get froze out.


Also smith has play with melo before years ago with the nuggets in which is why the nuggets didnt have a success with those 2 together.


----------



## 29380

Dre said:


> I remember during the game Sunday after Melo hit that last straightaway 3 with like 30 seconds left he and JR were discussing something...I was like what could they be upset for...a co worker I was watching the game with pointed out JR thought he was open...
> 
> I'm like seriously? You think you deserve the shot over Carmelo, and not only that he hits the shot and you look unhappy and are trying to tell him you were open?
> 
> The JR Smith signing only made (a little) sense when D'Antoni was there and the whole 6 seconds or less was in effect and their were shots for everybody...but a guy with no concept of offensive basketball like Woodson can't handle that just putting JR in the doghouse. That's why JR will probably be off to Minnesota or somewhere he can just jack shots up. Give his shots to Novak


Melo was yelling at JR because he did not rotate on defense on the play before Melo's 3 that resulted in LeBron getting a wide open 3.


----------



## R-Star

rayz789 said:


> Also smith has play with melo before years ago with the nuggets in which is why the nuggets didnt have a success with those 2 together.


Success is winning a championship. People act like that's an easy feat, and it isn't.

If Melo is your guy, he needs to be the primary offensive weapon with a good defensive team, bigs that can rebound, and good shooting role players he can kick out to. 

If his teams keep trying to just throw other offensive first stars in there with him like Amare and AI, that's their fault. I don't fault Melo on that.


----------



## Dre

You sure? It looked like JR had his hands out as if to say "I was open" and he was doing most of the talking


----------



## R-Star

seifer0406 said:


> btw, I think Ricky Rubio is better than Kobe. Laugh now but you will regret it in 6 years.


In 6 years when Kobe is retired? 

Are you saying he'll actually be remembered as a better player overall career wise than Kobe Bryant?


----------



## rayz789

R-Star said:


> Success is winning a championship. People act like that's an easy feat, and it isn't.
> 
> *If Melo is your guy, he needs to be the primary offensive weapon with a good defensive team*, bigs that can rebound, and good shooting role players he can kick out to.
> 
> If his teams keep trying to just throw other offensive first stars in there with him like Amare and AI, that's their fault. I don't fault Melo on that.


He also needed to learn of how to make his teammates better like lebron mostly does. When Melo had stars like Ai and now With Amare, he still ballhogs in which he barely pass. He loves to always go 1 on 1. That's melo habit.


----------



## Dre

There's nothing wrong with being a scorer and not being some point forward, because you're supposed to have teammates that foster the ball movement if you're a good enough scorer to have your own plays. 

Do you expect Carmelo to suddenly become a guy who runs an offense or something? And it's an overblown idea that he just doesn't pass. He did a really good job in that game Sunday of making smart decisions with the ball and keeping the offense going for the sake of a good shot, it just didn't show up as assists


----------



## 29380

Dre said:


> You sure? It looked like JR had his hands out as if to say "I was open" and he was doing most of the talking


He was saying I could not hear you so I did not know to rotate over.


----------



## R-Star

rayz789 said:


> He also needed to learn of how to make his teammates better like lebron mostly does. When Melo had stars like Ai and now With Amare, he still ballhogs in which he barely pass. He loves to always go 1 on 1. That's melo habit.


Putting Melo with AI doesn't work. They both need to dominate the ball to play at their best. Same somewhat with Amare if you don't have a top tier passing PG feeding him the ball. 

Melo has never had a quality secondary scorer. You put Melo on a team like the Pacers and he flourishes. You put him on a team with guys who "need the ball" which usually take up a shit load of cap space, and you're left with shitty role players and 2 guys who can't play well together.

Even a guy like Bosh would play a hell of a lot better next to Melo than Amare. Hes a better defender and rebounder and has shown hes more than ok not being "the guy".


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> I don't think caseyrh was ever the same after this thread. What exactly are you arguing? Didn't you already admit that you were wrong about Amare like a year ago? Now you're back on the Lee wagon again?
> 
> Here, let's refresh your memory
> 
> 
> 
> Look, Amare had a great year last year. You admitted you were wrong. He didn't have a good year this year, and now you're claiming victory. Some blame the season on Amare, some blame Melo, some blame the PG situation, some blame the lockout, the fact is he had a bad year. If you're going to come in and claim that you were right all along, (which is retarded considering you admitted you were wrong) just be prepared to come in next year and say you're wrong again if he has a bounce back season.
> 
> If you want to read some facts in this thread, find it in the first 15 pages where I said that none of this matters because Lee will fade into obscurity as he plays for *nothing* in Golden State. He played for nothing last year, he played for nothing this year, he's playing for nothing next year, the year after that, so on and so forth.


Amare had a better year Last year then Lee. I was wrong about that. But Amare still is a cancer, and this year Lee had a better year then Amare. Lee had a better year then AMare before that as well. 2 out of 3 aint bad. I just chose the wrong year.

Anyways For me this is about Amare not Lee, and fortunately we have 2 years of data to show just how bad of a cancer Amare is. 

You can't dispute the record and you cant dispute the fact that Amare has a superstar squad with zero Results. I'm sure there are a ton of quotes I could pull from here with all of you guys pumping Amare's tires. How does it feel to know that after 2 years his team is -3 wins with him and +11 wins without him?

Amazing stat. Add that to the Fact that New York is still a joke of a team, can't even compete in a first round playoff series and the proof is in the pudding.

Amare is what I said he is and he is not what you guys said he is.. And thats been proven over the last 2 years. Dispute that please...


----------



## rayz789

caseyrh said:


> Amare had a better year Last year then Lee. I was wrong about that. But Amare still is a cancer, and this year Lee had a better year then Amare. Lee had a better year then AMare before that as well. 2 out of 3 aint bad. I just chose the wrong year.
> 
> *Oh yeah you proved that point and it makes sense i mean lee is watching playoffs on tv*
> 
> Anyways For me this is about Amare not Lee, and fortunately we have 2 years of data to show just how bad of a cancer Amare is.
> 
> 
> *This just shows you barely watch the knicks game this year and realize amare dont get many touches cause of melo being a ballhog in which melo normally does.*
> 
> You can't dispute the record and you cant dispute the fact that Amare has a superstar squad with zero Results. I'm sure there are a ton of quotes I could pull from here with all of you guys pumping Amare's tires. How does it feel to know that after 2 years his team is -3 wins with him and +11 wins without him?
> 
> *Yeah amare has a superstar squad that is a ballhog and wont make his teammate better. If Amare had lebron besides melo, the knicks would be passing the first round since lebron has never been eliminated in the first round before. And lebron would be giving amare the ball alot of times.*
> 
> Amazing stat. Add that to the Fact that New York is still a joke of a team, can't even compete in a first round playoff series and the proof is in the pudding.
> 
> *Yeah and the road block in those first round series was against the veteran celtics and this yeat heat. Its a very hard pill to swollow to pass the first round if that team face those 2 in the last year and this year. *
> 
> Amare is what I said he is and he is not what you guys said he is.. And thats been proven over the last 2 years. Dispute that please...


*Again you havent proved anything but ignoring my comments in which before melo became a knicks, amare was unstoppable unguardable to say the least. But when melo came in, amare ppg went way down. Amare cant play with ballhoggers on his team. Its a bad duo teaming up together. Amare needs a real superstar that isnt a ball hog*


----------



## seifer0406

Before we dispute anything, answer me this.

If Amare has a better year next year, would you again admit that you were wrong or are we done with this argument after 2 years?

I read parts of this thread again and again edited. Dude you lost the argument already. You made yourself look like a fool, came out and admitted you were wrong, end of story. Don't come back here edited because some unexpected circumstances(i.e. pg controversy, Amare losing a brother mid season, coaching change, Melo, Lin's injury, etc.) that ended up happening after the argument has ended. None of these circumstances were present at the time of the discussion, how is this a fair argument? If you want to have another discussion about who's better right now, Amare or Lee then we can have that discussion. But if you're going to come here to re-claim victory after you have clearly lost then you edited can't admit defeat.


----------



## Luke

R-Star said:


> Speaking of my wife, she's currently 6 months pregnant and we expect our child on August 31st. In preparation of my wife becoming a house wife, I decided to quit Halliburton and start my own consulting company. Russell Drilling Fluid Consulting.


Good for R-Star.

David Lee still sucks.


----------



## caseyrh

seifer0406 said:


> Before we dispute anything, answer me this.
> 
> If Amare has a better year next year, would you again admit that you were wrong or are we done with this argument after 2 years?
> 
> I read parts of this thread again and again edited. Dude you lost the argument already. You made yourself look like a fool, came out and admitted you were wrong, end of story. Don't come back here edited because some unexpected circumstances(i.e. pg controversy, Amare losing a brother mid season, coaching change, Melo, Lin's injury, etc.) that ended up happening after the argument has ended. None of these circumstances were present at the time of the discussion, how is this a fair argument? If you want to have another discussion about who's better right now, Amare or Lee then we can have that discussion. But if you're going to come here to re-claim victory after you have clearly lost then you edited can't admit defeat.


edited, irrelevant

Anyways Essentially everything I said about Amare has been proven correct, At the end of last year, I admitted Amare had a better season then Lee. Nothing wrong with that, statistically Amare did and I couldn't really dispute it at that point.

But boy have the tides changed. Essentially all have my posts in this thread have been proven correct by now.


----------



## Bogg

Amare had a bad year because Amare's broken, and he's going to stay that way. He's hitting that 2009 Elton Brand stage of his career where folks think he just needs to get healthy/figure out the system/develop chemistry/etc and he'll be back on track, but it's most likely not happening. The difference is that Brand plays some defense.


----------



## Dre

I agree. 

Does that make you want to take back what you said about him being a better option going forward than Bynum for New Orleans?

Mind you at the time I said they were both trending different directions, so this isn't hindsight


----------



## BlakeJesus

Dre said:


> There's nothing wrong with being a scorer and not being some point forward, because you're supposed to have teammates that foster the ball movement if you're a good enough scorer to have your own plays.
> 
> Do you expect Carmelo to suddenly become a guy who runs an offense or something? And it's an overblown idea that he just doesn't pass. He did a really good job in that game Sunday of making smart decisions with the ball and keeping the offense going for the sake of a good shot, it just didn't show up as assists


The reason people want more from him as a passer is because he's such a ballstopper. Kevin Durant doesn't need the ball in his hands 24/7 to score, he can put the ball in the hoop in a variety of ways. Carmelo needs the ball in his hands, and if he's not a threat to pass and he's not a threat to shoot threes he's got some real limitations there.

I think his inability to pass is overblown as well, I think he has the vision/ability to do so (obviously he isn't LeBron, but he's clearly a better passer/ballhandler than somebody like Durant). It's just not in his makeup, it's not his personality. I can see why that rubs people the wrong way.


----------



## Bogg

Dre said:


> I agree.
> 
> Does that make you want to take back what you said about him being a better option going forward than Bynum for New Orleans?
> 
> Mind you at the time I said they were both trending different directions, so this isn't hindsight


Sure, Amare's not a good option for most anyone going forward on that contract. I didn't realize how broken Amare was at the time. That being said, bottoming out was and still is a better option going forward for New Orleans than building around Kevin Martin and Luis Scola.

EDIT: Also, I don't think Bynum's a good centerpiece for a rebuild, because he's good enough to keep you out of the top of the lottery and you wind up rebuilding in the very early teens, like what happened to Indiana. To finish a team? Sure, but not as the first piece after a tear-down.


----------



## Da Grinch

this thread is funny .

the guy who pumps up lee gets embarrassed by the overwhelming evidence against it as the season starts , relents and stops posting as all his predictions make him look silly , comes back to do what?

say he was right all along , even though Lee toils in obscurity in golden state on a 23-43 team in disarray .

when losing follows a guy cross country while the team he left starts getting to the playoffs in his absence , despite the erroneous position that lee is a top player, maybe its time to cut bait and move on .

David Lee is what he is a good guy, comes from a good family , decent scorer , very good rebounder , underrated passer , horrible defender...his grandfather invented the cloths hanger(the MF'n hanger ! everyone has a bunch of those!), and apparently was a saintly man.

but david lee the ballplayer is not a difference maker, his contributions went up and his team got worst....not really the same thing or category as stoudamire who suffered through a career worst season and his team which used to be lee's team is still significantly better for the swap...and golden state is still the same.

Stoudamire more than anyone else was credited with changing the culture of the knicks making them the type of team people want to play for.

when tyson chandler had a choice between golden state and new york , (and he is from california) he chose new york because he felt he had a better shot to win there .

this topic is stupid even in amare's worst season he basically was the same as lee he just played less minutes because is basically not 100% so they have been limiting his minutes...and even then there is significant room to argue Amar'e is still a better player

per 36 min lee is avg. 19.5 and 9.3 stoudamire is avg 19.2 and 8.6 ,not alot of difference there, but since lee is probably the league's worst defender or at least in the running for it while Amar'e wont be winning any DPOY awards their defensive impact is pretty significant, the better player is still Amar'e

i would say wait til Stoudamire ages , but they are both actually 29 right now.

just let it go.


----------



## Bogg

Da Grinch said:


> while Amar'e wont be winning any DPOY awards their defensive impact is pretty significant


No it's not, the Knicks are a noticeably worse defensive team when Amare's on the floor. He blocks a shot every now and again, that doesn't make him an impactful defensive player.


----------



## Da Grinch

Bogg said:


> No it's not, the Knicks are a noticeably worse defensive team when Amare's on the floor. He blocks a shot every now and again, that doesn't make him an impactful defensive player.


i never said he was an impactful defensive player, i said the difference between their defensive contributions is significant .

Amar'e defensive PER 15.5= below avg , because 15.0 is avg.
David's defensive PER 18.5= pretty bad, among the worst at his position.

basically amar'e can guard his man to mediocre results on avg.

the man being guarded by david usually looks like a star.


----------



## Bogg

Da Grinch said:


> i never said he was an impactful defensive player, i said the difference between their defensive contributions is significant .
> 
> Amar'e defensive PER 15.5= below avg , because 15.0 is avg.
> David's defensive PER 18.5= pretty bad, among the worst at his position.
> 
> basically amar'e can guard his man to mediocre results on avg.
> 
> the man being guarded by david usually looks like a star.


That's more the effect of almost always playing alongside either Chandler or Jeffries, and having some decent defenders on the perimeter, than Stoudemire's defensive ability. Last year Stoudemire's opponent PER was more like 20, he's not a noticeably better defender than Lee, Lee just didn't have the DPOY as his backstop.


----------



## Da Grinch

Bogg said:


> That's more the effect of almost always playing alongside either Chandler or Jeffries, and having some decent defenders on the perimeter, than Stoudemire's defensive ability. Last year Stoudemire's opponent PER was more like 20, he's not a noticeably better defender than Lee, Lee just didn't have the DPOY as his backstop.


last year Amar'e was all world on offense, he played less defense i'll admit that and basically only played defense when he felt the outcome was in doubt if he didn't , which meant mostly in the 4th quarter, he was clearly conserving his energy for offense which he deemed more important...the major difference is that amar'e can guard his man when he feels he needs to , and lee cant , neither plays much team defense although stoudamire holds the edge there too.

Lee's defensive PER of 18.5 is actually the lowest its been since 2008 , he's had 19.4 , 22.1 and 20.8 since he became a starter over the same stretch amar'e defensive PER has been 19.7 , 18.0 and 15.2, not good for the most part at all but he is better than Lee, significantly so.

jeffries was on the team the season before , he plays good defense but he doesn't help amar'e or anyone enough to be that significant ...if he did he couldn't be had for the vet min. there is a world of difference between chandler and jeffries and their impact.

the whole team put more of an emphasis on defense this season , part of it was tyson chandler but most of it was woodson and the rest of the players including stoudamire doing their part


----------



## Bogg

Da Grinch said:


> Lee's defensive PER of 18.5 is actually the lowest its been since 2008 , he's had 19.4 , 22.1 and 20.8 since he became a starter over the same stretch amar'e defensive PER has been 19.7 , 18.0 and 15.2, not good for the most part at all but he is better than Lee, significantly so.


Unfortunately, PER isn't independent of who you play with, and that 15.2 was posted alongside a still effective Shaq as his backstop, while Lee spent that season playing center next to Al Harrington. When Amare has an elite defensive center to cover up for his mistakes he's an average to below-average defender, when he doesn't his man puts up a very similar PER to Lee, who's either played center on undersized teams or the 4 next to bad centers. I'm not going to pretend that Amare does an acceptable job on defense when it's clearly better defenders covering for him.





Da Grinch said:


> jeffries was on the team the season before , he plays good defense but he doesn't help amar'e or anyone enough to be that significant ...if he did he couldn't be had for the vet min. *there is a world of difference between chandler and jeffries and their impact*.


.....and that's why Chandler got $15 million/year and the DPOY and Jeffries plays bench minutes for a minimum deal. _However_, half-court defense is literally Jeffries' only NBA skill, with his opponent PER in the twelves at both the center and power forward positions, only a hair higher than Chandler's opponent PER(12.6). You can't possibly think that having Jeffries rotating over to cover your ass isn't preferable to Jeremy Tyler or Andris Biedrins.


----------



## caseyrh

All you have to do is look at Amare's adjusted +/- over his 2 years on the Knicks to tell his impact. With the exception of Mike Bibby he has by far the worst adjusted +/- on the knicks each of the last 2 years. The knicks are dramatically better on D when he is off the court.

The other blatantly obvious part about opponent PER is that it is only telling you what is going on with your matchup... but not the rest of the team. And of course playing Help D is essential for an NBA big, something Amare could care less about...


----------



## Da Grinch

Bogg said:


> Unfortunately, PER isn't independent of who you play with, and that 15.2 was posted alongside a still effective Shaq as his backstop, while Lee spent that season playing center next to Al Harrington. When Amare has an elite defensive center to cover up for his mistakes he's an average to below-average defender, when he doesn't his man puts up a very similar PER to Lee, who's either played center on undersized teams or the 4 next to bad centers. I'm not going to pretend that Amare does an acceptable job on defense when it's clearly better defenders covering for him.


actually shaq was far from elite defensively at that point , as a member of the heat Riley actually had to bench him so he wouldn't break the record for consecutive games fouled out and teams had long since adopted running pick and rolls as a principle way of exploiting his now very obvious lack of mobility...he best hing he did for amar'e was by being a true center, it meant that stoudamire played less minutes there , he couldn't switch as much as with lets say frye or lopez who are basically the same size as he is.

when amar'e was exclusively a center his defensive PER was 17.1 in 06-07, he even was all nba a center.

when amare joined he knicks his 1st season he played primarily center and 19.7 is still lower than lee put up his last 2 years playing the same role....both players had jeffries playing with them.

i see alot of evidence saying amar'e is he better defender in advanced stats including defensive rating, def. win score, plus basic stats such as blocks , his team got better defensively from when lee was there, including the season before chandler arrived....and lee certainly fails the eye test, no one who watches lee play thinks he is anything but among the worst defenders in the league where its easy to see he doesn't care to play decent defense, dispute all you want , but there really is nothing suggesting lee is not what i say he is....and that amare while not a good defender is still significantly better.









> .....and that's why Chandler got $15 million/year and the DPOY and Jeffries plays bench minutes for a minimum deal. _However_, half-court defense is literally Jeffries' only NBA skill, with his opponent PER in the twelves at both the center and power forward positions, only a hair higher than Chandler's opponent PER(12.6). You can't possibly think that having Jeffries rotating over to cover your ass isn't preferable to Jeremy Tyler or Andris Biedrins.


except for the small point that when lee has actually played a significant portion of his career with jeffries and his defense wasn't any better then either .


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## ChosenFEW

There are two amar'es one before melo and one after melo.


look at the numbers from those two time tables and you will see drastic changes.


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## RollWithEm

Shouldn't this thread be in the player comparisons forum?


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## Hyperion

ChosenFEW said:


> There are two amar'es one before melo and one after melo.
> 
> 
> look at the numbers from those two time tables and you will see drastic changes.


Which one is the imposter?


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## 27dresses

I believe there is no question, when all things are taken into consideration, David Lee was better than Amare this passed season.


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## ChosenFEW

Hyperion said:


> Which one is the imposter?



not an imposter but a doppelganger.


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## Bogg

Da Grinch said:


> actually shaq was far from elite defensively at that point , as a member of the heat Riley actually had to bench him so he wouldn't break the record for consecutive games fouled out and teams had long since adopted running pick and rolls as a principle way of exploiting his now very obvious lack of mobility...he best hing he did for amar'e was by being a true center, it meant that stoudamire played less minutes there , he couldn't switch as much as with lets say frye or lopez who are basically the same size as he is.



Like you hinted at, Shaq never stopped being seven foot two and three hundred and God knows how many pounds, and let Amare play his natural position. Even when Shaq was on the C's last year he was still one of the most effective backstops in the league(emphasis on the word backstop) because he took up so much space and altered so many shots. Additionally, it's well known that the Phoenix training staff rejuvenated Shaq his one full year there and he was much better than the player he was at the end of his time in Miami. You can't honestly think there isn't a huge difference between playing your natural spot with a still-effective Shaq(he made the all-star team that year) and playing out of position with Al Harrington as your other "big man". 



Da Grinch said:


> when amar'e was exclusively a center his defensive PER was 17.1 in 06-07, he even was all nba a center.



.........it's not the middle of last decade anymore. What Amare did five and six years ago doesn't have a ton to do with the guy he is now, much to the chagrin of Knicks fans everywhere.



Da Grinch said:


> when amare joined he knicks his 1st season he played primarily center and 19.7 is still lower than lee put up his last 2 years playing the same role....both players had jeffries playing with them.
> 
> i see alot of evidence saying amar'e is he better defender in advanced stats including defensive rating, def. win score, plus basic stats such as blocks , his team got better defensively from when lee was there, including the season before chandler arrived....and lee certainly fails the eye test, no one who watches lee play thinks he is anything but among the worst defenders in the league where its easy to see he doesn't care to play decent defense, dispute all you want , but there really is nothing suggesting lee is not what i say he is....and that amare while not a good defender is still significantly better.


I never said David Lee wasn't a bad defender, just that Amare doesn't do any good for you on that side of the floor either. The Knicks got better defensively from 2009-2010 to 2010-2011 because they settled on a rotation, played balls to the wall, and were actually trying to win games in 10-11. 09-10 was a throwaway season with a roster built exclusively to create cap space in the summer 2010, Amare would have looked just as bad on defense playing alongside the likes of Larry Hughes, Al Harrington, and Nate Robinson. I mean, rag on Lee's defense all you want, but I'm not gonna act like Amare's anything but a liability on that end as well, I've watched the vast majority of the Knicks games this past year.











Da Grinch said:


> except for the small point that when lee has actually played a significant portion of his career with jeffries and his defense wasn't any better then either .



Go back and look at Jeffries' minutes distribution and opponent PER during his first stint with the Knicks. He was primarily a small forward who spent some time at the four in smallball lineups, and his defense wasn't anything all that special back then. Locking guys up on defense is something that's relatively new to him, but it's keeping him in the league.


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## Hyperion

ChosenFEW said:


> not an imposter but a doppelganger.


Charlatans.


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## RollWithEm

Why isn't this thread in the player comparisons forum?


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## Adam

RollWithEm said:


> Why isn't this thread in the player comparisons forum?


Any player comparison between NBA players can be an NBA topic but not any NBA topic can be a comparison of players. That forum is just an additional level of criteria for this forum's threads. This topic has more broad scale themes and implications to add another level of criteria and steer the discussion to just one of player comparison. Plus people like it here.


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## RollWithEm

Adam said:


> Any player comparison between NBA players can be an NBA topic but not any NBA topic can be a comparison of players. That forum is just an additional level of criteria for this forum's threads. This topic has more broad scale themes and implications to add another level of criteria and steer the discussion to just one of player comparison. Plus people like it here.


Yeah, no. That was weak. My question was meant to be rhetorical. This thread very obviously DOES belong in the player comparisons forum. I know that many people don't check that forum, so threads started in the main NBA forum area get more views/responses. I just think that is the sort of problem that will continue if no one acts on it.


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## Adam

RollWithEm said:


> Yeah, no. That was weak. My question was meant to be rhetorical. This thread very obviously DOES belong in the player comparisons forum. I know that many people don't check that forum, so threads started in the main NBA forum area get more views/responses. I just think that is the sort of problem that will continue if no one acts on it.


They tried that line of thinking with game day threads and it killed game day threads and they never recovered. Meh, I couldn't resist trying to defend the other side but I see your point. I think everyone is still reeling from the fact that this thread was bumped in the first place by a guy saying he is right when he already admitted he was wrong.


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