# Larry Brown to Detroit! Will he soon be followed by... ALLEN IVERSON?



## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

First of all, Larry Brown is arguably the greatest basketball coach in the world right now, pro or college. He's only, what, 61 or 62? He's got another five or so years left in him easy, and five years is an eternity in the NBA. So this is a great move by Detroit.

I'm a big big BIG Rick Carlisle fan, this guy will get a job in no time at all--the Cavs should say to hell with Jeff Van Gundy and whoever else is giving them the runaround and offer the job to Rick Carlisle RIGHT NOW--but c'mon, Larry Brown, we're talking about Larry Brown here.

What a totally unanticipated move by the brilliant Joe Dumars here. I'm totally floored. That New Jersey-Detroit rivalry just got a whole lot more interesting. Do you guys realize that these two teams are going to be going at it in the ECF for the foreseeable (the next 2-3 years) future?

One thing I will say about Larry Brown is that he prefers veterans, he doesn't like working with young guys. Darko Milicic is 17 years old right now, so this is a really obvious problem. Another potential problem is that Brown was making GM decisions in Philly, TERRIBLE GM decisions that cost him his job (yeah, I really do believe that Philly wanted him to leave, he has really screwed that franchise up with his terrible GM decisions, he's arguably the worst GM in NBA history). Will Brown expect Joe D. to let him have significant GM-type imput in Detroit? I actually think that Brown was SO INCREDIBLY BAD as a GM, and that he KNOWS how incredibly bad he was as a GM, that he will never want to have anything to do with GM stuff again. I think that he wanted to find a GM who he could trust, somebody who he could totally see eye-to-eye with, somebody who he knew would give him the kinds of players that he needs in order to succeed, and he obviously understands that Joe D. is that guy. Joe D. really is that guy, you know, this isn't just wishful thinking.

One more thing to expect is for Joe D. to offer Kenny Thomas the full MLE. Larry Brown is a big BIG Kenny Thomas fan, you will not find a bigger Kenny Thomas fan, he had wanted Thomas for a while, Thomas was a big BIG player for Philly, especially down the stretch of the regular season. Will Philly match a full MLE offer? Well, that team is wanting to trim payroll, they want to rebuild without actually using the r-word, so maybe, maybe not, hard to get a read on that. I don't think they WILL match a full MLE offer, but you never know. But I guarantee you that Kenny Thomas' #1 choice right now is Detroit, and that Detroit's #1 choice right now is Thomas. Last summer, Chauncey Billups signed a longterm deal for the MLE with Detroit on DAY ONE of the signing season. I'd look for the same thing to happen with Thomas THIS summer, DAY ONE, he signs with Detroit.

Finally, before I forget. Philly wants to rebuild, they want to reduce payroll. Detroit has about $9-$10 mil in expiring contracts (Zeljko Rebraca, Michael Curry, Hubert Davis), they have several cheap, promising young players (Mehmet Okur, Tayshaun Prince), they have Rip Hamilton (who they can sign-and-trade), they have several other reasonable contracts, and, of course, they have Donnie Darko. Don't believe this garbage about how Allen Iverson drove Brown out of Philly. That is GARBAGE, that is NOT WHAT HAPPENED. Larry Brown loves Iverson. And Brown is the closest thing to a father that Iverson has ever had. I guarantee you that Iverson misses Brown already. Father-son relationships can get complicated sometimes. Just because those guys didn't always totally get along does not mean that they did not respect the HELL out of each other.

Iverson grew up so much under Brown. He is a MAN now, he is more of a man than he ever imagined he could be. When Philly loses, he takes all the blame, and he means it, he's not just saying it. When Philly wins, he gives all the credit to his teammates. He's a man, a MAN, fellas. He's a WINNER. There are only so many dudes who consistently put their teams on their backs and wills them to victory, I'm talking about a TINY HANDFUL of dudes here, and Allen Iverson is one of them. I swear to god, I get choked up every time I think about Allen Iverson, this dude makes me happy, he's the quintessential underdog rags-to-riches story, this isn't Hollywood, this is REAL LIFE, he's for real, yet most Americans see him as a "thug" (which is the modern day PC code word for the n-word; other totally racist code words that you hear today are "street ball," "inner city," "gang violence," and many others). If Iverson were a white guy, he'd be the most celebrated athlete in America. All sportswriters and fans who give this guy a hard time should be ashamed of themselves. How can you root against a kid like Allen Iverson? Seriously?

Don't be all that surprised if you see Iverson get traded to Detroit this summer for a Darko Milicic-Rip Hamilton-expiring contracts package. Philly will want Detroit to bail them out on Keith Van Horn's terrible contract, but jesus, that's just not realistic. Detroit may have to bail them out on Aaron McKie's contract (five years remaining, I believe), however. Here is an idea that would work:

Allen Iverson and Aaron McKie to Detroit;

Darko Milicic, Richard Hamilton (sign-and-trade), and expiring contracts (Rebraca, Curry, and Davis) to Philly. Part of the deal involves Philly promising Detroit that they WON'T match a full MLE offer for Thomas, as well.

2003-04 Detroit Pistons

Starting lineup

PG Chauncey Billups (40 mpg)
SG Allen Iverson (40 mpg)
SF Tayshaun Prince (24 mpg)
PF Kenny Thomas (32 mpg)
C Ben Wallace (40 mpg)

Key reserves: Aaron McKie (20 mpg), Mehmet Okur (20 mpg), Chucky Atkins (12 mpg), Clifford Robinson (12 mpg)

End of the bench (no PT): Corliss Williamson (will get dumped this summer for a dude whose contract ends ASAP), Pepe Sanchez, Mystery Minimum Salary SG/SF free agent

You're subbing in Iverson for Hamilton (talk about an upgrade!), Thomas for Williamson (upgrade), and McKie for Barry (a wash). That team right there, absolutely positively the best team in the Eastern Conference, and a legit championship contender, YES, that team CAN BEAT the Spurs or whoever else the West has to offer, IT CAN. I'm not saying that it WILL, but it CAN. Billups is the PERFECT guy to pair with Iverson--he's big, he can nail the three, he is more interested in winning than in getting his points, he can guard the opposing team's best (i.e., biggest and strongest) backcourt player. All of these guys are pretty no-ego defense-oriented team-first guys, which are, of course, exactly the kinds of players you want to surround Iverson with.

Detroit instantly becomes a much MUCH better version of the Sixers. Detroit actually has some interior defense, arguably the best interior defender in the league, actually--Philly had no interior defense. Detroit has guys (especially Billups) who can fill it up from the perimeter--Philly had problems shooting the three. Detroit has established, outstanding role players (Uncle Cliffy, Atkins, Okur)--Philly had to throw out the likes of Brian Skinner. This Detroit team is INSTANTLY better, a lot better, than that Philly team that made it to the Finals back in, when was it, 2001? And that was a good team!

I'm serious, fellas, Iverson-to-Detroit makes way more sense than you think it does. Take a look at Philly's roster. It's a mess. I'm telling you, THEY ARE REBUILDING. Why do you think nobody wants that job? Why do you think Jeff Van Gundy turned them down immediately? JVG wants to stay on the East Coast, Philly is a perfect job for him... unless they're rebuilding! Philly will end up with an assistant like Eddie Jordan, somebody who just wants an opportunity. A top guy like JVG or Paul Silas, they can and will hold out for something better. It goes without saying that Philly is a lottery team for the next couple of years, because their top three players are going to be Richard Hamilton, Eric Snow, and Keith Van Horn, with absolutely NOTHING inside (Samuel Dalembert, are you kidding me?), that's pretty awful. Darko Milicic, the dude is 17 years old, he's NOT READY, it's going to take a while.

Ultimately, besides the Donnie Darko situation--one could argue that, if they DO trade Donnie Darko for a veteran like Iverson, Detroit would be making an enormous mistake, trading away Darko Milicic could really come back to haunt them later on down the road--Larry Brown is a perfect fit for this team. He and Joe D. see eye-to-eye. Both guys are obviously both all about a no-nonsense defensive-oriented team-first philosophy. You just know that Larry Brown is going to fall in love with Chauncey Billups, dude, WHAT a CLUTCH PLAYER, huh? You know that the guy is going to fall in love with Ben Wallace, too. The big question for Larry Brown will be, "Who do I want my granddaughter to marry, Chauncey or Ben?" Great fit for Larry Brown. And don't worry about Rick Carlisle, he will get a good job, hell, he may even get a raise! Carlisle ultimately can't really take this personally. I mean, if your wife tells you that she's leaving you for Robert Redford, you can't take it personally.


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## CrossinUOvr03 (May 23, 2003)

I'd LOVE to see AI playing with Chauncey. That would sweet! I just don't think it would actually happen. You hit the nail right on though about Philly rebuilding. They're an absolute mess. Only question is do they want to get rid of the one guy who puts the fans in the seats during that period?


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

LMMFAO

No way. If he wanted to have the Sixers players, he would've stayed in Philly! Why change teams and then bring back a 4th of your old lineup. No way this happens. Not a chance.:no:


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## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Damian Necronamous</b>!
> LMMFAO
> 
> No way. If he wanted to have the Sixers players, he would've stayed in Philly! Why change teams and then bring back a 4th of your old lineup. No way this happens. Not a chance.:no:


Dude, according to you, no change ever happens in this league!

Brown was told by Philly ownership that it's time to bring the payroll down, that he was not going to be allowed to dig the team into an even deeper financial hole, he realized that he could not win in this scenario, he's in his early sixties, he's not interested in rebuilding, so he left. Philly ownership wanted him to leave, too, I really do believe that, he really did screw this franchise up with his terrible GM moves. He saved them as a coach, but they should've never conceded GM powers to the guy.

I don't think this scenario--Iverson-to-Philly--is at all far-fetched. Brown doesn't like to deal with young players, he doesn't like to develop players, he wants to win. He loves Allen Iverson, and he loves Kenny Thomas, too. It is awfully hard for me to believe that Donnie Darko will be in a Pistons uniform two years from now, that's for sure!


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>robyg1974</b>!
> 
> Dude, according to you, no change ever happens in this league!
> 
> ...


That is pretty interesting, where do you think he will be in 2 years robyg1974?

-Petey


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

*Interesting specualtion*

Roby, you are interesting and this is creative....but this part- <b>"Darko Milicic, Richard Hamilton (sign-and-trade), and expiring contracts (Rebraca, Curry, and Davis) to Philly. Part of the deal involves Philly promising Detroit that they WON'T match a full MLE offer for Thomas, as well....."</b>

Part of the deal is a "promise" not to go after a player the 6ers already like and can offer him more? That is a wee bit of a "wrench" in your scenario - for me at least. If I'm the owner of Philly, I don't give the Pistons the estate and the promise of the swimming pool.

One other thing, Larry Brown has taken one of his multitude of teams to the finals - once. Actually, imho, Iverson and company took Brown to his first finals. In other words, this 67 (<b>Oooops, I guess he is 62. ) </b>year old coach is over-hyped, imo.


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## digital jello (Jan 10, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>robyg1974</b>!
> Dude, according to you, no change ever happens in this league!


But according to you, this league would be filled with crazy trades every day. Big trades like this (and many others you propose) are very rare. How many ever happen?

It's fun to read them and it's pretty great that you take your time to show us the many possibilities there really are in this league, but sometimes we just have to be realistic.

If this trade happens, ban me.


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>digital jello</b>!
> 
> 
> But according to you, this league would be filled with crazy trades every day. Big trades like this (and many others you propose) are very rare. How many ever happen?
> ...


NOPE! No way are you getting banned IF this trade happens.


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## GNG (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>digital jello</b>!
> 
> 
> But according to you, this league would be filled with crazy trades every day. Big trades like this (and many others you propose) are very rare. How many ever happen?
> ...


A-friggin'-men.

These *are* fun posts to read, to hear about the different POSSIBILITIES of what MIGHT happen, but it disconcerts me to read these very same posts when I realize that the guy who types them out believes with all his heart that they will, beyond a shadow of a doubt, happen.

True blockbuster trades happen in this league maybe once in the offseason and once (MAYBE twice) before the trade deadline, and that has been the case throughout the course of the past several years. What's been the biggest trade in the last 365 days? Ray Allen for Gary Payton and Desmond Mason? And what's been the second biggest? Honestly, I can't think of anything off the top of my head...Elden Campbell for Kenny Anderson? The three-way trade with *James Posey and Kenny Thomas* headlining the deal? 

Blockbuster trades are rather rare, and here's a guy telling anyone who will listen that Portland will rebuild, the Lakers will rebuild, Garnett will go to Chicago (the most likely of events), Shaq will be traded to the Grizzlies of all places, and Darko and Rip will be traded for Allen Iverson all in the same season? On top of that, all of the free agents that will be moving around this offseason, and you get the biggest mish-mash of Miss Cleo NBA Tarot card possibilities put together in one man's head. Give me a break.

I'd say about 90% of all of Roby's "trade posts" are about NOTHING except future CAP ROOM and very little else. While having cap space is a good thing, I can't imagine that it's the only reason NBA franchises make trades. Sure, cap space is a good thing, but EXTREMISM in any situation is a bad theory. Roby's posts may be fun and stimulating, but the fact that he almost asserts that it will happen is what is outlandish.


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## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>TheRifleman</b>!
> Roby, you are interesting and this is creative....but this part- <b>"Darko Milicic, Richard Hamilton (sign-and-trade), and expiring contracts (Rebraca, Curry, and Davis) to Philly. Part of the deal involves Philly promising Detroit that they WON'T match a full MLE offer for Thomas, as well....."</b>
> 
> Part of the deal is a "promise" not to go after a player the 6ers already like and can offer him more? That is a wee bit of a "wrench" in your scenario - for me at least. If I'm the owner of Philly, I don't give the Pistons the estate and the promise of the swimming pool.


Take a look at Philly's payroll situation, it's not pretty:

http://www.nbazone.net/teams/View_Salary.asp?TId=7

Let's say they let Monty Williams go, that reduces the 2003-04 payroll to $56.5 mil. Matt Geiger does not count for luxury tax purposes, so their taxable payroll is at $47.1 mil. Let's say they let Derrick Coleman, Tyrone Hill, and Brian Skinner walk (they will, you know), and that they replace them with two minimum salary guys, that bumps their payroll up to $47.9 mil. Now IF they bring back Kenny Thomas at MLE money, that puts their payroll at $52.4 mil. That means that they go over the luxury tax threshold. No question, they'd love to have Kenny Thomas back at, say, $3 mil, but for $4.5 mil, that just screws up their numbers too much. By re-signing Thomas, they miss out on all that luxury tax reimbursement money. Ask yourself, is Kenny Thomas worth $15-$17 mil (and maybe a little more) next season? Of course not. That's why he's probably a goner.

If Philly is not going to bring back Thomas, they could always bring back Derrick Coleman instead, at a reduced price, say, just under $3 mil. But that still puts the payroll for next year at $50.9 mil, which is cutting it awfully close. I think they'd rather bring in an el-cheap-o big guy or two, instead, in order to keep payroll closer to $49-$50 mil.

Now, if you're not going to bring back either Thomas OR D.C., if you are going to let all of your free agents walk, if the most that you are willing to spend to replace basically your entire frontcourt is about $2-$3 mil... well, how many games can you possibly win? You just lost your head coach, the best basketball coach on the planet, and you have lost your only two frontcourt scorers... how many games can you possibly win? Take a look at this crap:

Starting lineup

PG Eric Snow
SG Allen Iverson
SF Greg Buckner
PF Keith Van Horn
C Samuel Dalembert

Key reserves: Aaron McKie, Efthimios Rentzias, John Salmons, Sam Clancy

I mean, seriously, who can you get for $2-$3 mil who can really make much of a difference up front? Jake Voskuhl? Mike Batiste? Reggie Evans? Jerome Moiso? Gary Trent? Vladimir Stepania? Corie Blount? Mamadou N'Dyaie? You know what I'm saying, Todd? Add one or two players from that list, and you're STILL talking about a team that will struggle to finish at .500, a team that will have quite a few unhappy campers.

However, if Philly makes this deal, they are going to be able to reduce their payroll in 2004-05 from about $50 mil to closer to $42-$43 mil, that's a huge difference, they will actually be able to afford to spend their entire MLE next summer and not really worry about the luxury tax! Furthermore, they'll be able to get Todd MacCulloch removed from the salary cap, he won't count for luxury tax purposes, as long as Philly can get league doctors sometime during the 2004-05 season to declare him physically unfit to resume playing (which they will). That knocks your 2004-05 payroll down even further, by another $6 mil! Keith Van Horn's contract is obviously a nightmare, but what can you really do about it? Not much!

Let's say Philly makes this deal, they will have their payroll in order, and they get something incredibly valuable for Iverson. They will absolutely positively suck next season, no question, take a look:

Starting lineup

PG Eric Snow (40 mpg)
SG Richard Hamilton (40 mpg)
SF Greg Buckner (32 mpg)
PF Keith Van Horn (40 mpg)
C Samuel Dalembert (24 mpg)

Key reserves: John Salmons (20 mpg), Zeljko Rebraca (20 mpg), Michael Curry (12 mpg), Darko Milicic (12 mpg)

End of the bench (no PT): Hubert Davis, Efthimios Rentzias, Sam Clancy

Pretty terrible, we're talking about a 20-25 win team here, but they stay under the luxury tax threshold, they get something REALLY REALLY GOOD for Iverson NOW rather than waiting for his value to decline as the losses pile up and as he becomes more and more disgruntled (and, to be fair, as he continues to get older). Donnie Darko = MAJOR COMMODITY. If Philly is committed to rebuilding, and they are, then this is a fantastic trade for them. They will add another high lottery pick to the fold after NEXT season, and they should be good to go in the long run, but the immediate future, not looking good, with or without Iverson.

Anyway, I hope I've demonstrated that Philly is in pretty bad shape, that they were in pretty bad shape longterm even BEFORE Brown was encouraged to leave, and that, now that he's gone, they are in even WORSE shape than before. This team is in desperate need of a rebuild, and Darko Milicic, obviously a fantastic way to begin, talk about a potential superstar!


> One other thing, Larry Brown has taken one of his multitude of teams to the finals - once. Actually, imho, Iverson and company took Brown to his first finals. In other words, this 67 year old coach is over-hyped, imo.


He's 62, not 67, big difference. How old is Joe Paterno? 76! I realize he's a bit of an exception, but still!

As for Iverson taking Brown to the finals, well, c'mon, T.R., that's ridiculous. Let's just say that neither one of them would've been in the Finals that year without each other.


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## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rawse</b>!
> These *are* fun posts to read, to hear about the different POSSIBILITIES of what MIGHT happen, but it disconcerts me to read these very same posts when I realize that the guy who types them out believes with all his heart that they will, beyond a shadow of a doubt, happen.


I think they SHOULD happen. And, when they DO happen, I won't be surprised.


> Blockbuster trades are rather rare, and here's a guy telling anyone who will listen that Portland will rebuild,


Pippen is gone, Arvydas is gone, Trader Bob is gone, Rasheed is being shopped... they ARE rebuilding!


> ... the Lakers will rebuild,


Horry won't be back, that's a start, we'll see what happens, I think it's going to be a ridiculously dramatic summer in L.A.


> ... Garnett will go to Chicago (the most likely of events),


I have actually been making fun of people for saying that KG ends up in Chicago. I doubt KG gets traded at all, at least not this summer, probably never.


> ... Shaq will be traded to the Grizzlies of all places,


Jerry West! Dude, they have Jerry West! The dude is NOT going to sit around and watch this team win 30ish ballgames again!


> ... and Darko and Rip will be traded for Allen Iverson all in the same season? On top of that, all of the free agents that will be moving around this offseason, and you get the biggest mish-mash of Miss Cleo NBA Tarot card possibilities put together in one man's head. Give me a break.


We've already seen perhaps the most dramatic coaching carousel in NBA history. The old NBA used to encourage conservatism. The new NBA encourages financial sanity. There are so many teams with financially INSANE rosters, THAT is why we see so many drastic changes in today's NBA.


> I'd say about 90% of all of Roby's "trade posts" are about NOTHING except future CAP ROOM and very little else. While having cap space is a good thing, I can't imagine that it's the only reason NBA franchises make trades. Sure, cap space is a good thing, but EXTREMISM in any situation is a bad theory. Roby's posts may be fun and stimulating, but the fact that he almost asserts that it will happen is what is outlandish.


I normally only say things like "it could happen" or "it would make a ton of sense," right? When I say something WILL happen, it normally involves a team's financial situation. For instance, a team that is worried about the luxury tax like Milwaukee, NO WAY is Gary Payton going to play another game in a Bucks uniform. A team like Chicago who is worried about being able to afford Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry in a couple of years, NO WAY will they not shop around Jalen Rose this summer and try to dump that dude's contract, even for crap, e.g., Dikembe Mutombo. A team like Philly, NO WAY do they not try to get their payroll situation in order, this IS THE REASON why Larry Brown left, and this IS THE REASON why they end up spending about $3-$4 mil TOPS this summer on free agency (including their own free agents).

I'm a big believer in the idea that, if you understand the logic behind the present collective bargaining agreement, and if you have a good idea of what each team's payroll situation looks like, then you can more or less figure out what is and is not going to happen, or, at least, what is MORE likely to happen or what SHOULD happen, definitely what COULD happen.

Finally, I am the Basketballboards.net Poster of the Month for May! Dude! IT IS STILL MAY! You cannot criticize anything that I say until tomorrow! Don't you know that?


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## robyg1974 (Jul 19, 2002)

Hey, if the person who voted "Yes" here is who I think he is, let me know, I'll get that check for $1.50 in the mail ASAP.


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## JustinSane (May 26, 2003)

After firing Carlisle, I wouldn't put anything past Dumars. It's well known that he likes AI, he did try to trade for him a few years ago. Still, he seems to have fallen completely for Darko and I'd be pretty surprised if he was anywhere but Detroit in 2 years. And really, how much better would the Pistons be after that trade? Iverson will add 10 points, for an extra 8 shots or so, over Hamilton, while reducing their defensive flexibility. They still don't have an interior scorer. Thomas is a great role player, but he's no Duncan, or even K Mart. I'll take Hamilton/Darko over Iverson at this point, thanks. And the way he plays the game, how many good years can his body possibly have left? The man's a warrior, but how much punishment can one small man absorb before something gives?


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## BigGameJames (May 27, 2003)

Well roby, I have to say I couldn't disagree more with the initial thought of AI ending up a Piston next season. I have to hand it to you though, you made more excellent points in that original post than I care to go back through and count them all. Great job, you definitetly get a five-star vote from me. I think you may be slightly blinded by your love of Iverson here. I don't think Detroit is going to trade for a player is who is nine years older and has more wear and tear than anyone in the league. Regardless of what YOU think of Darko, THEY love him. I think giving Rip Hamilton a little more credit is also in order. There is no denying Allen's talent, but I think the Pistons are a threat to win the East as is, and not making this trade makes them more of a threat in the future.


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## TheRifleman (May 20, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>robyg1974</b>!
> 
> Take a look at Philly's payroll situation, it's not pretty:
> 
> ...


Once again you have backed up your speculation with good reasoning. Larry Brown was an absolutely horrid GM(no Red Auerbach for sure!), not as bad as Riles.

Okay, that wrench is gone from the point I thought might not happen. <b>We'll have to agree to disagree</b> about the 62 year old coach. I just don't think he is so great that you give up on a young up and coming coach.

As you yourself said - Brown is worse than dreadful when it comes to playing rooks. He teaches them until they are fossils before they pass to what he thinks is the next level. He also treats grown men like they're still college "kids", which doesn't go over big with MEN. Which is probably part of the reasons why the guy has made it to the finals one whole time in his long, LONG HOF career.


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## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

Larry Brown got his azz whooped by the better coach...So what do the piston do... they hire him. go figure.


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