# Przybilla



## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

I'm torn about Joel: I have a feeling that he's a pretty attractive piece for other teams. For example, if we traded with Chicago, they might like him, because they don't have any beefy seven-footers, and they felt enough of a need for defense in the middle that they threw ridiculous money at Ben Wallace. 

BUT: I think we need to hang on to him for at least the next season to see how healthy Oden is, and because he'll likely get called for a lot of fouls until/unless he starts getting superstar treatment. As such, I think he's actually pretty valuable for us. I see him like Blake: scaffolding. Stuff you need while you're building that maybe you can get rid of when the building is complete.


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## World B. Free (Mar 28, 2008)

meru said:


> I'm torn about Joel: I have a feeling that he's a pretty attractive piece for other teams. For example, if we traded with Chicago, they might like him, because they don't have any beefy seven-footers, and they felt enough of a need for defense in the middle that they threw ridiculous money at Ben Wallace.
> 
> BUT: I think we need to hang on to him for at least the next season to see how healthy Oden is, and because he'll likely get called for a lot of fouls until/unless he starts getting superstar treatment. As such, I think he's actually pretty valuable for us. * I see him like Blake: scaffolding. Stuff you need while you're building that maybe you can get rid of when the building is complete.*


Great metaphor! I agree. He is either going to have to go or sign a cheaper contract when his is up. A WAY cheaper contract.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Joel hurts our team more than he helps I think


I know I'm gonna get killed for this because he is such a popular player, but it's how I feel.


Joel is amazing at rebounding, blocking shots and he sets great screens. However, our offense goes south quickly when Joel is in the game because the other team literaly doesn't have to guard him. 

I woul drather have Frye develope as our back up center. He is much better offensively, and showed in the last week of the season that he can rebound. The blocked shots are really the only thing we would be lacking, but keep in mind we are talking about a second string center who probably won't play a ton as the season goes on. 

Add to the fact that Joel would more than likely rather play closer to his hometown and start somewhere it might be a better fit to move him now.


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## blue32 (Jan 13, 2006)

mediocre man said:


> Joel hurts our team more than he helps I think
> 
> 
> I know I'm gonna get killed for this because he is such a popular player, but it's how I feel.
> ...



I kind of agree; I mean, without Joel, our defense was so terrible that we got posterized on the inside over and over. I can recall a bunch of fourth quarter ***-whoopings b/c Joel wasnt in there causing defenses fits.

It's kind of a catch 22, and which is why Oden is going to be so great for our team...


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## BLAZER PROPHET (Jan 3, 2003)

I think Joel is a very valuable member of the team.

He's a veteran who plays pretty tough and pushes other people around when they get out of hand. He's a better than average defender and we lose nothing defensively when he takes over for Oden. He runs the floor well for a center his size. He sets excellent picks and can execute the pick & roll (but we don't currently have a PG that can except Sergio).

What's not to like about him? 

In fact, I'd go so far as to say if we assume our starters to be Blake, Roy, Webster, Aldridge & Oden, he's the top nontradable reserve we have followed by Outlaw (a very close second).


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

BLAZER PROPHET said:


> I think Joel is a very valuable member of the team.
> 
> He's a veteran who plays pretty tough and pushes other people around when they get out of hand. He's a better than average defender and we lose nothing defensively when he takes over for Oden. He runs the floor well for a center his size. He sets excellent picks and can execute the pick & roll (but we don't currently have a PG that can except Sergio).
> 
> ...


You'd keep a back up center who has no offensive game over Travis, Rudy and Bayless? That's a little surprising to be honest.


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## dpc (Dec 26, 2007)

I have to say I'm all for keeping Pryz. I just love the idea of when Oden is in the game getting rebounds and blocking shots and then when he comes out Pryz comes in getting rebounds and blocking shots. You always hear announcers say "well now that Amare/Pryz/Duncan is out of the game the team has no presence in the middle. Well if fouls are somewhat under control we will never have that problem. We will always have someone in the middle too defend. Not a lot of easy lay ups with any of them out there.


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## e_blazer1 (Feb 3, 2004)

No way I'd trade Joel this season. Until the Blazers see if Oden's knee holds up to an 82 game pounding, and if he can stay out of foul trouble while playing, we need Joel's services. I also think that his lack of offense is not going to be nearly the liability that it has been in the past simply because the Blazers have added so many other good offensive players.


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

mediocre man said:


> Joel hurts our team more than he helps I think
> 
> 
> I know I'm gonna get killed for this because he is such a popular player, but it's how I feel.
> ...


How many NBA centers don't have massive holes in their game? And of those guys, how many are backups? 

Przybilla is useless on offense (other than screening and rebounding), but most teams have one or two offensive duds coming off the bench. The real difference this year is that he'll actually be playing in the bench role he was built for, and the bench will have more effective offensive options than we did last year. 

Outlaw, Fernandez and Bayless all project to be bench players who can create their shots at will. Frye will finally be playing at his natural PF position, drawing big man defenders out with his jumper. Scoring will not be a problem at all for our second unit. With only Przybilla underneath, there will be tons of lanes for Bayless and Fernadez to attack off of Przybilla screens. 

I can't think of a better backup center to pair with those four guys. Maybe a Brad Miller passing-type, but we aren't going to find one of those.


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

mediocre man said:


> Joel hurts our team more than he helps I think
> 
> 
> I know I'm gonna get killed for this because he is such a popular player, but it's how I feel.
> ...


Hmmm ...

I see your point and agree that Frye could probably be a "serviceable" backup center who would definitely give us some more offensive capability at the 5 than Joel does. However, I remember many occasions when it wasn't just Frye's lack of shot blocking on defense that I lamented, he really seemed to have trouble hard fouling a guy and making sure that he couldn't complete his shot; when Joel would hard foul a guy I seem to recall that they almost never completed the play.

This is a tough one. I do agree that Przybilla *could* be expendable in the near future, but until we see Oden step on the court and see what kind of player he's going to be, I think a veteran 7'1" bruiser like Joel, who gobbles up rebounds, alters shots, and isn't afraid to mix it up with guys like Shaq and Garnett, is going to be invaluable.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

Joel is the best backup Center in the league. Players like Joel don't come along often. 8mil a year for a 7 footer that doesn't just stand there? That is reasonable. He is an awesome post defender.

He is a huge part of this team and some of the veteran presense we need.

I'd only trade him if something too good to pass up came along, but i highly doubt it will. He is a big part of our team, no need to trade him. Once his contract is up he will sign a smaller contract. It will be perfect. 

Great 2nd unit center. We don't need to get younger.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Even if Oden is 100% healthy and everything we hope he will be, we have to keep Joel. Last season, he was our best rebounder by far and our best defender. 

There is more to offense than scoring the ball. I'm sure this will come as a surprise, but Joel had the 3rd highest offensive rating on the team last season behind James Jones and Brandon Roy. Joel may not be much of a scoring threat, but the picks he sets help create scoring opportunities for his teammates. Rather than causing the offense to grind to a halt, as has been suggested, having a big man who actively sets screens for his teammates helps improve the teams' offense. John Wooden's three basic principles of an effective offense are: spacing, screening and passing. Joel provides the "screening" far better than anyone else we have on the roster. A good pick rarely makes the highlights, but that doesn't mean it's not an important offensive weapon. Joel also knows his limits offensively. He doesn't try to do more than he's capable of, and he doesn't demand "touches". He improved his FT shooting dramatically last season, and as a result lead the team in both FG% and eFG%, and trailed only James Jones in TS%. In terms of volume, he's a below average scorer, no doubt about that, but he is none-the-less a very efficient scorer.

For those who believe the whole "win shares" theory, Joel was second on the team to Brandon Roy in win shares above average at +4.0. I'm not a big fan of the win shares metric, but I do believe the Blazers were better as a team last season with Joel on the court than with him off it. He does so many things that help the team win (rebounding, interior defense, setting picks) that I'd hate to loose that - even if it's "only" on the second unit. With Frye, Outlaw, Rudy and Bayless, the last thing our second unit needs is a 5th scorer. Without Joel, that unit would be weaker at rebounding, and especially interior defense, than our starters, minus Joel, were last season. With Joel, that unit is very well balanced, and I'm going to love watching him set screens to free up Rudy and Bayless.

Definitely keep him.

BNM


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

Wow, BNM, that is an amazing post. I couldn't agree more my man.


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## chairman (Jul 2, 2006)

MrJayremmie said:


> Wow, BNM, that is an amazing post. I couldn't agree more my man.



Yes great post. But what is amazing to me is he even had to post it. There should be little debate regarding his value to this team. Personally I don't think Greg will be be 100% at all this year. And we have NO OTHER CENTER on the team.
If Greg goes down for any length of time this year and we didn't have Joel, we would have no chance of making the playoffs.


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## blue32 (Jan 13, 2006)

^^ agreed.


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## HurraKane212 (Aug 2, 2007)

Something else to keep in mind is that Pryzbilla was a league leader in drawing fouls. He's kinda like Bill Lambeer with no offense.


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## BLAZER PROPHET (Jan 3, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> Even if Oden is 100% healthy and everything we hope he will be, we have to keep Joel. Last season, he was our best rebounder by far and our best defender.
> 
> There is more to offense than scoring the ball. I'm sure this will come as a surprise, but Joel had the 3rd highest offensive rating on the team last season behind James Jones and Brandon Roy. Joel may not be much of a scoring threat, but the picks he sets help create scoring opportunities for his teammates. Rather than causing the offense to grind to a halt, as has been suggested, having a big man who actively sets screens for his teammates helps improve the teams' offense. John Wooden's three basic principles of an effective offense are: spacing, screening and passing. Joel provides the "screening" far better than anyone else we have on the roster. A good pick rarely makes the highlights, but that doesn't mean it's not an important offensive weapon. Joel also knows his limits offensively. He doesn't try to do more than he's capable of, and he doesn't demand "touches". He improved his FT shooting dramatically last season, and as a result lead the team in both FG% and eFG%, and trailed only James Jones in TS%. In terms of volume, he's a below average scorer, no doubt about that, but he is none-the-less a very efficient scorer.
> 
> ...


Well posted! :clap:


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## mook (Dec 31, 2002)

HurraKane212 said:


> Something else to keep in mind is that Pryzbilla was a league leader in drawing fouls. He's kinda like Bill Lambeer with no offense.


Yep. And on a team with something of a soft image, he was the one guy who was always in somebody's face. He's the kind of enforcer every good team needs. 

If somebody is absolutely abusing us in the lane, it's the easiest thing in the world for Nate McMillan to tell him to go in and pick up two or three quick, very hard fouls. I'm not talking a "goon," but a guy who has nothing to lose and plans on making guys pay during the 20 minutes a night he gets to play. 

Kind of a younger, stronger version of the Rockets' Dikembe Mutombo.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

Can you imagine how much better Joel would play in a limited role where he can be aggresive and use up his fouls?


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

All right: suppose it was a choice between keeping Joel and keeping Outlaw (in a trade for a good player) - who'd you pick?


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## mobes23 (Jun 29, 2006)

One of my favorite all time Blazers is Buck Williams -- his offense was solid, but nothing special. Rebounding, defense and inside presence was HUGE to the early 90's team. In fact, that team took a huge leap forward as soon as Buck joined the squad. Offense is sparkly and glittery, but every team needs a Pryzbilla (and maybe more than one).


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## deanwoof (Mar 10, 2003)

Joel may not score and get all the touches and he's OK with that. Remind yourself the last time you were watching a home game and Joel did score. The crowd goes nuts when he scores on an easy dunk or a putback. That alone changes the pace and tempo of the games. We NEED Joel P on the team.


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## meru (Jul 2, 2003)

mobes23 said:


> One of my favorite all time Blazers is Buck Williams -- his offense was solid, but nothing special. Rebounding, defense and inside presence was HUGE to the early 90's team. In fact, that team took a huge leap forward as soon as Buck joined the squad. Offense is sparkly and glittery, but every team needs a Pryzbilla (and maybe more than one).


Agreed on Buck, but remember he was a #1 pick overall, and I believe he averaged 18ppg in New Jersey, so he COULD score. There's no team in the NBA, and possibly the world, that Joel could average 18ppg for.


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## hoojacks (Aug 12, 2004)

Joel is absolutely essential to the team, especially next year when Oden will be seeing limited minutes. Oden thus far is a. unproven at an NBA level, b. and injury concern and c. described as "soft" (which I don't really believe). There's nothing wrong with having an above average center coming off the bench behind Oden, especially one that is a tough minded enforcer type who was our only source of inside D last season. If Oden struggles more than suspected next year, if he goes down for an extended stretch with an injury or if he has trouble adjusting to the physicality of the NBA game, we'll be glad we kept Joel. And in a few years when Oden is destroying the league, we'll still be glad that we kept Joel. Servicable centers are the hardest thing to find in the NBA, and having one coming off the bench will be a big part of our future success.


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## gatorpops (Dec 17, 2004)

meru said:


> Agreed on Buck, but remember he was a #1 pick overall, and I believe he averaged 18ppg in New Jersey, so he COULD score. There's no team in the NBA, and possibly the world, that Joel could average 18ppg for.


Joel dosn't need to on this team however. We have much improved offense and if we do not trad him we have Ike Diago too as a tough guy and rebounder. This team does not need to make any changes yet really, or so it seems to me.


gatorpops


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

I think if you compare the production of offense to defense on and off the floor between Frye and Joel, Frey was more effective as a whole.

Example per 48 minutes Scored/allowed
Frye: 95.5/94.0 or +1.5
Joel: 90.1/92.8 or -2.7

That's a total swing of 4.2 points per 48 minutes.

With the starting unit of Blake, Roy, Webster and LMA this is how they they broke down per 100 possessions. Scored/Allowed
Frye: 112/103 (+9)
Joel: 107/105 (-2)

So With Joel in we scored 5 points per 100 less than with Frye in and gave up 2 points per 100 more. That's an overall +7 for Frye.


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## GOD (Jun 22, 2003)

meru said:


> All right: suppose it was a choice between keeping Joel and keeping Outlaw (in a trade for a good player) - who'd you pick?


Although either player should be available for the right piece, I think that we have a pretty well rounded team at the moment and there is no need to trade either one. KP likes flexibility and having Joel next season, after Oden has a year under his belt, will add to that flexibility. There is no need or reason to trade Joel now, but I do believe that next off-season he will a very valuable asset.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Schilly said:


> I think if you compare the production of offense to defense on and off the floor between Frye and Joel, Frey was more effective as a whole.
> 
> Example per 48 minutes Scored/allowed
> Frye: 95.5/94.0 or +1.5
> ...



Sorry Schilly, but logic won't work here. Everybody loves Joel and they are blinded by his shortcomings. Please take your facts and logic and go elsewhere.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> I think if you compare the production of offense to defense on and off the floor between Frye and Joel, Frey was more effective as a whole.
> 
> Example per 48 minutes Scored/allowed
> Frye: 95.5/94.0 or +1.5
> ...


Joel has a specific role on this team. With that, all you proved was that Frye is a better offensive player and Joel is a better defensive player...

Since when do we need more offense on the 2nd unit? Frye stunk last season except for the very end.


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## LameR (Jan 4, 2004)

mediocre man said:


> Joel hurts our team more than he helps I think
> 
> 
> I know I'm gonna get killed for this because he is such a popular player, but it's how I feel.
> ...


While I see your point, and tend to agree, I'd like to see how he plays on the second unit with Frye and Travis playing in there real positions, as well as Bayless and Rudy.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

MrJayremmie said:


> Joel has a specific role on this team. With that, all you proved was that Frye is a better offensive player and Joel is a better defensive player...
> 
> Since when do we need more offense on the 2nd unit? Frye stunk last season except for the very end.


frye was also pretty darned good the first 1/3rd of the year before slumping. He did come on at the end of the year when Joel went out with the broken hand and he got extended minutes though...

Like Webster, Frye needs to be extended this offseason if he's to be retained past this upcoming year or his caphold will wipe out KP's precious capspace. If he does resign, I think the writing will be on the wall for Joel's Blazer days.

STOMP


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

MrJayremmie said:


> Joel has a specific role on this team. With that, all you proved was that Frye is a better offensive player and Joel is a better defensive player...
> 
> Since when do we need more offense on the 2nd unit? Frye stunk last season except for the very end.


Did you opt to ignore the numbers comparing Fryes numbers to Joels where both players are playing with the starters?


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## Fork (Jan 2, 2003)

MrJayremmie said:


> Joel has a specific role on this team. With that, all you proved was that Frye is a better offensive player and Joel is a better defensive player...
> 
> Since when do we need more offense on the 2nd unit? Frye stunk last season except for the very end.


Did you not see the part about how Frye's offense more than outweighs Przybilla's defense.

If you have three apples, but you have to give two apples to Sally...that's worse than having 2 apples and having to give none to Sally...get it? It doesn't matter that one thing (starting with three apples) is better than the other, it matters how many apples you end up with.

We get more apples with Frye on the court.


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## nikolokolus (Jan 29, 2008)

meru said:


> All right: suppose it was a choice between keeping Joel and keeping Outlaw (in a trade for a good player) - who'd you pick?


If it was for a stud at the 3 (Say Luol Deng for example) then I'd trade Outlaw in heartbeat.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> Did you opt to ignore the numbers comparing Fryes numbers to Joels where both players are playing with the starters?


No. It showed me exactly what i know. That Joel is a better defender and that Frye is better on offense. Joel isn't in the game for offense, but he sets nice picks and gets offensive rebounds for the team.

And Joel is a better center than Frye.

The only thing i really like about Frye is the fact that as a backup he can backup our PF and Center position. That is a big deal to me, and ultimately, i think it will play a big factor in the future.

We have enough scoring on our 1st and 2nd unit. I'd rather have Joels defense and physical presence in our 2nd unit.


> Did you not see the part about how Frye's offense more than outweighs Przybilla's defense.


Yea, but if Frye isn't in there, we can stick other people there and get points out of that position (or other players in the 2nd unit can take those shots and we'd get his points that way as we aren't short on scorers). We don't have somebody liek Joel to come in and be a defensive anchor in the paint. I value defense much more than offense, which is why i think those stats are misleading.


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## BLAZER PROPHET (Jan 3, 2003)

Schilly said:


> I think if you compare the production of offense to defense on and off the floor between Frye and Joel, Frey was more effective as a whole.
> 
> Example per 48 minutes Scored/allowed
> Frye: 95.5/94.0 or +1.5
> ...


Stats have their place, but they rarely tell the true story. Picks, screens, pick & rolls, shots altered,... never show up in stats. 

I may not be an expert, but I played and ref'd high school games so I know a little about the game and to me Joel is probably the best reserve center in the NBA and his defense is invaluable as well as the other little things he does that are not on the stat sheet.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

BLAZER PROPHET said:


> Stats have their place, but they rarely tell the true story. Picks, screens, pick & rolls, shots altered,... never show up in stats.


Those would show up in things that are essentially +/- based. Because they're not looking at the player's individual accomplishments, but how the team does when the player is in. So, if screens and altered shots help the team, they should be reflected in the team's performance with the player (assuming personnel around them is accounted for).


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

Yea but how the team did doesn't attribute directly to the player (Joel and Frye), but has a lot to do with the other players on the team, and if they are hot, hitting shots or not, etc.

Joel had a lot of time with the starters, and always played vs the opposing teams 1st unit players, while Frye was a bench player (until the end of the year when Joel went down, but at the end of the year more factors come into play like people resting their players or injuries and fatigue... KP was talking about that when asked a question about Ramon Sessions and said not to be too fooled by players who come on strong at the end of the year). 

I think there are a lot of different factors that go into that, which is why i say those stats honestly just told me that Frye is a better offensive player and Joel defensive.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

MrJayremmie said:


> Yea but how the team did doesn't attribute directly to the player (Joel and Frye), but has a lot to do with the other players on the team, and if they are hot, hitting shots or not, etc.


If it's the same players around them, over the whole season, that basically equalizes it. Players aren't going to systematically hit shots with Frye in and systematically not hit shots when Pryzbilla is. At least, not by pure chance, for a whole season.



> Joel had a lot of time with the starters, and always played vs the opposing teams 1st unit players, while Frye was a bench player.


Yes, that's why I said that it has to be based on comparisons of when they played with similar personnel or in some other way accounted for. Pure +/- is not terribly useful. There are some good adjusted +/- metrics that account for who the player played alongside.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> If it's the same players around them, over the whole season, that basically equalizes it


I agree, but it isn't taking into account the competition. Like i said, when Joel is playing with the starting unit, they are playing against opposing team's starting units. When Frye is, its usually in the 2nd or 3rd quarter for limited time, not neccesarily against the opposing teams best players, which can easily account for being able to score more on the opposing team, or giving up less.

I just think there are too many factors that go into those stats to use those as a way to measure how good a player is for this team.

I feel the same way about this stat he listed...



> Example per 48 minutes Scored/allowed
> Frye: 95.5/94.0 or +1.5
> Joel: 90.1/92.8 or -2.7


because most of when Frye played was verse the other teams 2nd unit.

But IDK if he was just using that as an example and its a made up stat or if its a true stat.


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## B-Roy (Feb 12, 2008)

MrJayremmie said:


> because most of when Frye played was verse the other teams 2nd unit.


Are you trying to argue that Frye is an equal or worse offensive player than Przybilla? Regardless of whatever arguments you may want to bring up, that's just not true.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Ok Guys the 5 man unit with the most minutes played as a unit was Blake, Roy, Webster, Aldridge and Przybilla at 570 minutes logged. That unit scored 1.07 points per possession and allowed 1.05 points per possession. The 5 unit with the second largest minutes logged together was Blake, Roy, Webster, Aldridge and Frye with 285 minutes logged as a unit. They scored 1.12ppp and allowed 1.03ppp. 

The 1st unit mentioned outscored it's opponents in 23 of 51 games it appeared in, the 2nd unit outscored it's opponents in 26 of the 43 game sit appeared in together.

The Starting Unit was more efficient offensively *and* Defensively with Frye on the florr rather than Joel.

Heres more using those 2 units measured, listed as Joel Unit and Frye unit
effective fg% 
Joel .513
Frye .522
Summary: We shoot better with Frye in the game.

Effective FG% Allowed
Joel .495
Frye .477
Summary: Opponents shoot a lower fg$ with Frye in the game

Net Free throws attempted copmpared to oponents
Joel -28
Frye +3
Summary: We shoot more free throws than the oponent with frye in the game.

Close shots (percentage of shots from close range)
Joel 24%
Frye 28%
Summary: We get inside to score more often with Frye

Close Shots Allowed
Joel: 35%
Frye: 35%
Summary: No change

Rebounds (200% split between 2 teams
Joel 104%
Frye 100%
Summray: Joel is a better rebounder

Net Turnovers
Joel: -2
Frye: +2
Summary we turn the ball over a little more with Frye.


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## MrJayremmie (Dec 29, 2007)

> Are you trying to argue that Frye is an equal or worse offensive player than Przybilla? Regardless of whatever arguments you may want to bring up, that's just not true.


no way! no where in my arguement did i say that. I'm talking about overall team numbers. He is using overall team numbers when Frye and Joel were in the game. I'm just saying that when Frye played, it was against a lot of opposing teams second units, so that can be a contributing factor to why when Frye was in, the team scored so much more (verse some of the opponents second unit players) and gave up so little.

I still feel that the shots Frye took with those line-ups could go to Rudy, Bayless, Roy, Oden or Aldridge instead of Frye and we would get the same amount of points. But defensive wise, there aren't other players that can do for us what Joel can do with our 2nd unit.



> Ok Guys the 5 man unit with the most minutes played as a unit was Blake, Roy, Webster, Aldridge and Przybilla at 570 minutes logged. That unit scored 1.07 points per possession and allowed 1.05 points per possession. The 5 unit with the second largest minutes logged together was Blake, Roy, Webster, Aldridge and Frye with 285 minutes logged as a unit. They scored 1.12ppp and allowed 1.03ppp.


But did that unit of Blake, Roy, Webs, Aldridge and Frye play together verse second unit players? Because at the end of the year when Frye started, Webster was out with an illness, so it wasn't from that.

Anyway, whatever. I feel there are too many factors that can go into it and make those stats not really show what a player means. Its arguing defense vs offense, and i think for our team, Joel's defense is more important than Frye's offense.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

I'm not sure I get the whole Frye vs. Joel debate. This season we get both of them, playing their best positions, together on the 2nd unit. It's not like we need to choose one over the other. They both bring different things, and similar to Oden/Aldridge on the starting unit, their strengths and weaknesses seem to mesh well together. I personally wouldn't trade either one. With both of them, we have what is probably the best 5/4 four man roataion in the league. Why mess that up by trading one of them.

Of course, if someone offers you a GREAT young, but proven PG or SF, you consider it, but I don't see that happening.

BNM


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## RedHot&Rolling (Jun 26, 2004)

Schilly said:


> Ok Guys the 5 man unit with the most minutes played as a unit was Blake, Roy, Webster, Aldridge and Przybilla at 570 minutes logged. That unit scored 1.07 points per possession and allowed 1.05 points per possession. The 5 unit with the second largest minutes logged together was Blake, Roy, Webster, Aldridge and Frye with 285 minutes logged as a unit. They scored 1.12ppp and allowed 1.03ppp.
> 
> The 1st unit mentioned outscored it's opponents in 23 of 51 games it appeared in, the 2nd unit outscored it's opponents in 26 of the 43 game sit appeared in together.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry but facts aside, you must be wrong!! Przybilla is better than Frye. You're a Joel-hater!!


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> Pure +/- is not terribly useful. There are some good adjusted +/- metrics that account for who the player played alongside.


Yep.

I ignore pure +/- numbers. They don't even pass the giggle test, which should be the first filter.

Run the list of "best" + players in the NBA then you will see.

The numbers put up in the post above that seem to indicate that Frye had a better season than Joel are garbage.


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## Masbee (Dec 31, 2002)

Schilly said:


> Ok Guys the 5 man unit with the most minutes played as a unit was Blake, Roy, Webster, Aldridge and Przybilla at 570 minutes logged. That unit scored 1.07 points per possession and allowed 1.05 points per possession. The 5 unit with the second largest minutes logged together was Blake, Roy, Webster, Aldridge and Frye with 285 minutes logged as a unit. They scored 1.12ppp and allowed 1.03ppp.
> 
> The 1st unit mentioned outscored it's opponents in 23 of 51 games it appeared in, the 2nd unit outscored it's opponents in 26 of the 43 game sit appeared in together.
> 
> ...


Dude:

285 minutes is about 9 games.

9 games.

That sample size is too small to be valid.

Go get some more stats.

The problem with comparing Frye and Joel is they are such different players and the effect of opponent matchups and small ball and playing starter vs bench.

If Frye plays with our starters due to favorable matchups, and Joel gets all the toughest defensive assignments could that affect the numbers?

There are other possible changes that can occur to affect these kinds of numbers that make them hard to get a handle on.

Fact is the Blazers overachieved last season and both Joel and Channing were a part of it. Channing had his moments and made a contribution. But, he played fewer minutes and wasn't as good defensively, and cannot matchup well against certain bigs. 

If we had Frye and no Joel the team would suffer for lack of size. Having both on the bench would be a nice luxury for the coach and allow him to play matchups and health.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Masbee said:


> If we had Frye and no Joel the team would suffer for lack of size.


I didn't think the club was undersized last year, and Greg is bigger then Joel right? If Greg is good to go, Joel is going to spend the season riding the pine for all but 10-15 minutes a game.

STOMP


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

STOMP said:


> I didn't think the club was undersized last year, and Greg is bigger then Joel right?


Joel is a legit 7'1". Oden is 7'0".



STOMP said:


> If Greg is good to go, Joel is going to spend the season riding the pine for all but 10-15 minutes a game.


Even if Greg is healthy and ready to go opening night, I think the Blazers will bring him along slowly. They have been very cautious with his rehabilitation. I don't see them changing that tactic overnight. There will also be a big learning curve for Greg. 

While I think he'll get more minutes than Aldridge did during the fist half of his rookie season, I can see the Blazers kimiting his PT to 20 - 25 MPG for the fist couple months os the season, gradually increasing that to 30 - 35 MPG by the end of the season. That leaves about 24 MPG for Joel early in the season and about 15 - 18 MPG come March and April. For the season, I wouldn't be suprised to see Joel average about 20 MPG - which isn't that much less than the 23.6 MPG he averaged last season and is right at his career average (19.9 MPG).

BNM


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## TLo (Dec 27, 2006)

Boob-No-More said:


> Joel is a legit 7'1". Oden is 7'0".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oden is also 280+. Przybilla is nowhere near that.


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

TLo said:


> Oden is also 280+. Przybilla is nowhere near that.


Correct. Joel was quite a bit heavier early in his career, but all the added weight did was slow him down and increase the wear-and-tear on his body. He's been much more productive, and less !njury prone (but still not ab astion of health) since he slimmed down.

Oden has a larger frame and is more athletic. So, he actually benefits from the extra weight/muscle.

BNM


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## drinking_rogue (May 4, 2008)

I think we have to keep Joel for this season. He is a tough player and provides solid D. He sets good screens too. His weakness is scoring, but this team is loaded with scorers, so that's not a concern. He is also the ideal back up for Greg Oden. I think Oden will struggle with foul trouble quite a bit his first year. Joel is the perfect C to have coming off the bench.


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> Joel is a legit 7'1". Oden is 7'0".


Legit is with your shoes on? Whatever...you don't play hoops with the top of your head. Greg is decidedly bigger then Joel in wingspan, standing reach, and weight. The point I was making is that Portland wasn't small last year and hypothetically swapping Greg for Joel wouldn't be a step towards being bullied.


> Even if Greg is healthy and ready to go opening night, I think the Blazers will bring him along slowly. They have been very cautious with his rehabilitation. I don't see them changing that tactic overnight. There will also be a big learning curve for Greg.
> 
> While I think he'll get more minutes than Aldridge did during the fist half of his rookie season, I can see the Blazers kimiting his PT to 20 - 25 MPG for the fist couple months os the season, gradually increasing that to 30 - 35 MPG by the end of the season. That leaves about 24 MPG for Joel early in the season and about 15 - 18 MPG come March and April. For the season, I wouldn't be suprised to see Joel average about 20 MPG - which isn't that much less than the 23.6 MPG he averaged last season and is right at his career average (19.9 MPG).


we shall see

STOMP


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

STOMP said:


> Legit is with your shoes on?


Yes, you don't play basketball barefoot.



STOMP said:


> Whatever...you don't play hoops with the top of your head. Greg is decidedly bigger then Joel in wingspan, standing reach, and weight.


Stronger and more athletic, too.



STOMP said:


> The point I was making is that Portland wasn't small last year and hypothetically swapping Greg for Joel wouldn't be a step towards being bullied.


I agree and didn't imply that it was. While Joel is a good interior defender, he won't come close to being the intimidating force Oden will be. Joel challenges people. Oden will scare them. Moving Joel to the bench and sliding Channing to the back-up power forward spot will make the 2nd unit's rebounding and interior defense much better than it was last season. So, adding Oden is a significant upgrade to both the starting and 2nd team units.



STOMP said:


> we shall see


Yes, we shall. Given how slow and cautious the Blazers have been with Oden's rehab, I just don't see them playing him big minutes immediately. I think they will build up to it gradually as he tests the knee, gets into game shape, learns the offense, gets a feel for the game and adjusts to his teammates (and them to him). I might be wrong. It's just speculation, but consistent with the Blazers cautious handling of their franchise center prospect, and Nate's coaching style/philosophy.

BNM


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## STOMP (Jan 1, 2003)

Boob-No-More said:


> Yes, you don't play basketball barefoot.


sorry but legit is not what you are with shoes on as shoe thickness varies widely. A legitimate measurement is the same for everyone since forever... barefoot.

STOMP


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

STOMP said:


> sorry but legit is not what you are with shoes on as shoe thickness varies widely. A legitimate measurement is the same for everyone since forever... barefoot.
> 
> STOMP


Fine, Joel without shoes is 7'0" and Greg is 6'11". The difference is still 1". By legit, I was referring to the fact that when Joel actually takes the court and plays a game, he is 7'1" tall. That's legit. What you are describing is a consistent measurement. Joel's height, with shoes on, is a legitimate 7'1". That's an actual measurement, not a fabrication or guestimate.

And I don't agree that shoe thicknesses vary "widely" if you look at the historic pre-draft measurements on draftexpress.com you'll see that the vast majority of with/without shoe heights differ by between 1 and 1.5 inches. That's a variation of 1/2". It hardly seems significant when discussing players that are approximately 7' tall. There are a few exceptions, but they aren't all that common. The NBA generally lists players' "playing" heights as their height with shoes on - as that's how tall they are when they actually play the game. Again, there are exceptions, as they don't seem to actually verify the measurements submitted and some players deliberately list an inaccurate height for various personal reasons.

BNM


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## ProZach (Oct 13, 2005)

Schilly said:


> Ok Guys the 5 man unit with the most minutes played as a unit was Blake, Roy, Webster, Aldridge and Przybilla at 570 minutes logged. That unit scored 1.07 points per possession and allowed 1.05 points per possession. The 5 unit with the second largest minutes logged together was Blake, Roy, Webster, Aldridge and Frye with 285 minutes logged as a unit. They scored 1.12ppp and allowed 1.03ppp.


FYI, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th top +/- combos all contained J. Jack... Yeah, I'm gonna use those stats as my bible. By the by, Frye was on four of the bottom five +/- combos as well... whoops.



Schilly said:


> Heres more using those 2 units measured, listed as Joel Unit and Frye unit
> effective fg%
> Joel .513
> Frye .522
> ...


Let's just ignore the fact that Joel started 67 games against the best players on the other team. And lets ignore the fact that Joel was always brought in whenever guys like Yao or Howard reentered the game to try and slow them down. It's not hard to see why you can make these obscure stats look like Frye has a bigger impact. 

I prefer not to sit at my computer digging up worthless splits and +/- and which 5 unit allowed the most close shots. I watch the actual basketball game... Yes, I know, I'm old school. But I do, I watch the game. And I can see with my own two eyes that as soon as Joel leaves the game, the opposing team would suddenly get more courageous and start driving to the hoop because we had no physical presence and no shot-blockers. I love Frye, but I can't for the life of me understand how anyone who watched all the games can say that Frye had a bigger impact last season than Joel.

He fits the team culture perfectly. He's a fan favorite. He does all the small things that go unnoticed, even to some die-hard fans on here who I thought knew better. On a team with many offensive weapons, he doesn't have to score to be effective. He brings leadership and work ethic. And he's the only one we have who will bang Oden around in practice. And are we simply going to assume that Oden will never (knock on would) be hurt again? So when I read in this thread that mediocre_man actually thinks Joel hurts the team more than helps, I vomit a little bit in my mouth. 



mediocre man said:


> I woul drather have Frye develope as our back up center. He is much better offensively, and showed in the last week of the season that he can rebound.


And Jack out performed Blake in April, does that make him better too? The five games that Frye started we had no bench because Webster and Joel were out. Our bench was Outlaw and occasionally J. Jones (who failed miserably as a starter in one game). The starters had to log much heavier minutes than they had been, and Frye and Jack took advantage.

BTW, the five starting centers that Frye went up against in the last week? Pao Gasoft, Spencer Hawes, Eric Dampier (21 min), J. Collins, & finally Shaq (who played 10 min.) followed by a heavy dose of Sean Marks and Brian Skinner.



mediocre man said:


> Add to the fact that Joel would more than likely rather play closer to his hometown and start somewhere it might be a better fit to move him now.


rly:

http://www.nba.com/blazers/news/Trail_Blazers_ReSign_Center_J-184836-1177.html


> “It is great that we have Joel back with us and under contract,” said Portland Head Coach Nate McMillan. “He brings leadership and work ethic to a very young team. The fact that he wants to remain a Trail Blazer sends a very loud and clear message to his teammates that he believes in the path that the team is taking to turn things around.”
> 
> “Deep down, my wife and I both truly believed that Portland was the place to be and I am very excited about signing a new contract with the Trail Blazers,” said Pryzbilla. “Two years ago, Portland was the team that gave me a chance and to be able to continue my career here is great for me and my family. We have grown to love the city and we like where the organization is headed. I am committed to doing everything I can as a player and a teammate to give our fans a team they can be proud of and one day get Portland back on top.”


Clearly, you've just resorted to making crap up. Can't say I'm surprised.


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## Miksaid (Mar 21, 2005)

Touche.


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## Hector (Nov 15, 2004)

meru said:


> I see him like Blake: scaffolding. Stuff you need while you're building that maybe you can get rid of when the building is complete.


Before the new owner Oden moves in, he'd better have liability insurance to cover injury. Przybilla is Oden's insurance policy.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

ProZach said:


> FYI, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th top +/- combos all contained J. Jack... Yeah, I'm gonna use those stats as my bible. By the by, Frye was on four of the bottom five +/- combos as well... whoops.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are right. a player would never "say the right thing" after signing a multi million dollar offer.

Where is Joel EVERY off seaosn anyway? Oh that's right he's in Wisconsin at his home there with his family. Here is an exerpt from a Minnesota paper last off season.


> If Portland chooses 7-foot center Greg Oden with the No. 1 pick in next month's NBA draft, it could mean 7-1 former Gopher Joel Przybilla will be traded. The Timberwolves would seem a logical suitor for the shot blocker-rebounder from Monticello.
> Przybilla, 27, has the largest guaranteed sports contract of any Minnesota native in history at $32 million for five years. *He lives in Door County, Wis.*, during the offseason with wife Noelle and their 1-year-old son, Anthony.



I really have no reason to make stuff up as you say


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## ProZach (Oct 13, 2005)

mediocre man said:


> You are right. a player would never "say the right thing" after signing a multi million dollar offer.
> 
> Where is Joel EVERY off seaosn anyway? Oh that's right he's in Wisconsin at his home there with his family. Here is an exerpt from a Minnesota paper last off season.
> 
> ...



Yeah, you're right, if he lives in Wisconsin during the offseason he must hate it here. 

Yeah, you're right, players never tell the truth, they always lie lie lie. Even when we have absolutely no reason to believe they are, they are lying. 

You are right, happy fat guy, as usual.



mediocre man said:


> I really have no reason to make stuff up as you say


Yeah you do. You're arguing that he hurts the team more than helps and think this will help your argument.


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## gambitnut (Jan 4, 2003)

ProZach said:


> Yeah, you're right, if he lives in Wisconsin during the offseason he must hate it here.


He apparently doesn't like it here as much as he said he did right after he signed his contract.


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## ProZach (Oct 13, 2005)

gambitnut said:


> He apparently doesn't like it here as much as he said he did right after he signed his contract.


:thinking2:

How? I don't recall a quote where he said he loves Portland more than Wisconsin and will spend every offseason here till the day he dies. Why can't a person like two places at once? He can live one place during the offseason and still like the city of Portland, the team, and his being a part of it. Give me a break. You guys are acting like Canzano.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

ProZach said:


> :thinking2:
> 
> How? I don't recall a quote where he said he loves Portland more than Wisconsin and will spend every offseason here till the day he dies. Why can't a person like two places at once? He can live one place during the offseason and still like the city of Portland, the team, and his being a part of it. Give me a break. You guys are acting like Canzano.


How can Portland compete with the big cities of Wisconsin?


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## Boob-No-More (Apr 24, 2006)

Minstrel said:


> How can Portland compete with the big cities of Wisconsin?


Two words: Tillamook Cheddar

BNM


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Boob-No-More said:


> Two words: Tillamook Cheddar


That *is* good, I agree.


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

What does Tillamook Cheddar have to do with Portland?


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## Schilly (Dec 30, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> How can Portland compete with the big cities of Wisconsin?


I'll offer (since cheese was) that I'd take Portland's quality of beer against Wisconsin's beer.


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## andalusian (Jun 29, 2006)

Schilly said:


> What does Tillamook Cheddar have to do with Portland?


We subsidize their cows.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Schilly said:


> I'll offer (since cheese was) that I'd take Portland's quality of beer against Wisconsin's beer.


Never had it. I've had Washington microbrew, which is quite good.

But since Wisconsin beer is Milwaukee brews, I believe you.


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