# The art of designing a Lakers dynasty



## Sean (Jun 7, 2002)

Saturday, July 24, 2010; By Arash Markazi; ESPNLosAngeles.com

Mitch Kupchak always seems to be in the right place at the right time. At least that's the common misconception about the Los Angeles Lakers general manager who never gets credit for not only maintaining a championship team for three years but for rebuilding a new one three years later.

Kupchak is the quiet, unassuming player at the poker table -- never getting too aggressive or taking big risks yet always seems to end up with all the chips in the end.

Lakers GM Mitch Kupchak has been the understated mastermind behind his team's recent success.

When he traded for Pau Gasol two years ago, he was called a thief. When he drafted 17-year-old Andrew Bynum five years ago, he was called crazy and, after Bynum slowly developed into one of the best centers in the NBA, he was called lucky. 
When he replaced fan-favorite Trevor Ariza with Ron Artest last year, he was called foolish and, when Artest proved to be the hero in Game 7 of the NBA Finals, he was called fortunate.

Call him whatever you want but Kupchak, more often than not, has been right since taking over for Jerry West a decade ago.

While general managers around the NBA throw $120 million contracts at the likes of Joe Johnson, Kupchak quietly re-signed Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol to contract extensions this past season. Both moves, by the way, were announced via nondescript afternoon press releases as opposed to a prime-time special.

Few front office executives know the NBA landscape as well as Kupchak, who played for the Washington Bullets and the Lakers from 1976-1986 and joined the Lakers' front office upon retirement in 1986. You'll never see Kupchak overpay for a player or bid against himself for a player. He knows the market too well. He knows how much a player can get and knows what it will take to get him.

Try to bluff Kupchak all you want but chances are he'll call you out and make you pay in the end.

Ariza and his agent, David Lee, tried to play hardball with Kupchak last year and ended up running to Houston to take the same five-year, $33.5 million deal the Lakers had been offering for weeks after the Lakers moved on and signed Artest.

He didn't budge when Lamar Odom refused to sign a contract extension last year, even as it appeared the Miami Heat would swoop in and sign him. He knew the Lakers had the best offer on the table and wasn't about to raise it -- eventually, Odom caved in. The same scenario played out this year with Derek Fisher and ended with a similar result.

Let's also not forget this is the guy who refused to trade Bryant three years ago when Bryant went on his now-infamous radio tour, not only demanding to be traded but calling Kupchak out for not trading Bynum for Jason Kidd (another non-deal that looks better and better with each passing year). Indeed, it's the deals Kupchak has refused to make as much as the moves he has made which makes him one of the league's best executives.

While the majority of the headlines this offseason will be devoted to LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh joining forces in Miami, Kupchak has quietly improved the Lakers and made them the odds-on favorite to win the NBA title in most circles outside of Las Vegas sports books.

It's hard to improve a team coming off back-to-back championships that has the core locked up for the foreseeable future, but Kupchak did just that. He first took care of the two biggest free agents the team had going into the off-season in Phil Jackson and Fisher. Jackson said he was leaning towards retirement before vacationing in Montana and Fisher flew to Miami after saying he was unhappy with the Lakers' initial offer.

Kupchak always said he was confident both would return and eventually got both to sign contract extensions. He allowed Jordan Farmar, the talented yet unhappy backup point guard, to leave via free agency and replaced him with Steve Blake, who was a thorn in the Lakers' side when he was the starting point guard in Portland and notched a triple-double against them as a Clipper. Blake, who has started about 300 more games than Farmar, is not only an upgrade off the bench but allows the Lakers to give Fisher more time to rest during the season as the two will likely split time in the backcourt before the playoffs.

He then signed veterans Matt Barnes and Theo Ratliff to take the roster spots of DNP-regulars Josh Powell and D.J. Mbenga. Barnes, who started 58 games for the Orlando Magic last year and averaged 8.8 points and 5.5 rebounds, turned down more lucrative deals from Cleveland and Toronto to come play for the Lakers. The UCLA product now joins a growing list of Kobe pests to become Kobe teammates, a list that includes Artest and nearly included Raja Bell, who eventually signed with the Utah Jazz.

Ratliff, who started 26 games for the Charlotte Bobcats in 2009-10 and averaged 5.1 points and 4.2 rebounds, gives the Lakers a veteran backup on the front court who will be more focused on his role than his wardrobe, as Mbenga tended to be. A two-time second team all-defensive player and an All-Star in 2001, the 37-year-old Ratliff also gives the Lakers another veteran leader in the locker room.

Kupchak, who said he is "optimistic" he can round out the roster by re-signing Shannon Brown in the next week or two, also upgraded the Lakers' bench in the draft despite not having a first-round pick. He nabbed West Virginia's Devin Ebanks, a 6-foot-9, 215-pound carbon copy of Trevor Ariza who was projected to be a first-rounder, with the 42nd selection, and then stole Derrick Caracter, the 6-foot-9, 275 pound forward out of Fresno State, with the 58th pick. Caracter averaged 15.4 points and 8.6 rebounds in the Las Vegas summer league while Ebanks put up 15.0 points and 3.6 rebounds per game. Both players are expected to make the team and would be the first rookie tandem to be on the Lakers' opening day roster in seven years.

Again, no one will be talking about Kupchak's moves during an offseason dominated by the three kings in Miami but he can now sit back and smile at the full house he has put together while everyone around him goes all in.

Arash Markazi is a columnist and reporter for ESPNLosAngeles.com. Follow him on Twitter at http://twitter.com/ArashMarkazi.

http://sports.espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/columns/story?id=5407007


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

I remember a certain point a few years ago where I despised everything about Kupchak. I wanted him fired as I thought he was very incompetent, and I wasn't the only one. But boy has he changed the minds of Lakers' fans. He knows what he's doing.


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## Wilmatic2 (Oct 30, 2005)

I was in the boat with all the Mitch haters and well, it wasn't smooth sailing when Shaq left. It takes time for someone to prove their worth and Mitch has done exactly that. I believe Mitch has known what he was doing all along, despite some of the transactions that has come under fire in the past. Today's society is all about "what have you done for me lately" and this mantra doesn't preach patience, which is what Mitch is all about. As I've gotten older, I realized that in general, it is better to not get carried away, rather just stay patient and let things work out for themselves. The thing I like about Mitch is that he does his damn job. Never in the spotlight, never causing commotion, never seeks out attention, he just does his damn job. Thanks Mitch. Sign Shannon.


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## Shaolin (Aug 6, 2004)

Basel said:


> I remember a certain point a few years ago where I despised everything about Kupchak. I wanted him fired as I thought he was very incompetent, and I wasn't the only one. But boy has he changed the minds of Lakers' fans. He knows what he's doing.


Co-signed. I've said some contemptible things about Kupchak over the years, and *I've had to eat every one of those words*. The man has done very well. Maybe I should've had more trust that Jerry West wouldn't just turn the job over to any old knucklehead.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Always defended Kupchak. The only horrid trade he ever made was Butler for Kwame (which most Mitch haters at the time ironically favored) and he always drafted well.


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## Sean (Jun 7, 2002)

Kwame got us Gasol, so it wasn't too bad.

I didn't want to see butler go either, but in the end it all worked out.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

Kupchak is very underrated. The part about him knowing the market is also very true.


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## Ron (May 8, 2002)

I was pissed when Mitch went for Butler rather than hold out for Dwayne Wade in the Shaq trade, figuring we should tell Riley to go to hell and let Shaq steam and get fat at the end of the Laker bench.

But that was my only gripe with Kupchak. He's a hell of a GM, one of the best ever, as he is now proving. Kudos to Kupchak for not caving into Kobe three years ago either.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

He has done a complete 180 from being terrible to, essentially, being the best GM in the NBA. Results definitely speak for themselves. Though anyone saying he wasn't dreadful with his FAs and drafts early on is simply dishonest; McKie, Divac, Vujacic, Walton, Cook, Brown, Atkins, and a trade that included the toxic contract of Brian Grant were all literally within a 3 year period of each other, with nothing good to show for it but Lamar Odom. That's pretty terrible.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Cap said:


> He has done a complete 180 from being terrible to, essentially, being the best GM in the NBA. Results definitely speak for themselves. Though anyone saying he wasn't dreadful with his FAs and drafts early on is simply dishonest; McKie, Divac, Vujacic, Walton, Cook, Brown, Atkins, and a trade that included the toxic contract of Brian Grant were all literally within a 3 year period of each other, with nothing good to show for it but Lamar Odom. That's pretty terrible.


Look at players drafted where Vujacic, Walton and Cook were and see how many minutes they have on their resume. The Atkins deal was actually a good one, he traded the corpses of Payton and Fox and got back 3 of their top 6 scorers that year, including Mihm who was their 3rd best player two years in a row. 

Did Grant have two years left on his deal when we traded for him as well? How is that toxic?


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## LA68 (Apr 3, 2004)

You ever notice, you only see Kupchak, Dr.Buss or West when its time to collect rings ?? They have a system and rarely deviate from it. Its worked a long time. 

Just remember: Healthy Kwame at center 26-13 record. Kwame gets hurt 5-20 and returns to the lineup at 31-33. That's the difference he made. The Lakers since 1969 have always had a big defensive center. Without post defense, you have nothing. 

Kupchak made all the moves he should have. Shaq had to go, the owner said so. He signs the checks so he gets his way. You forget the Brian Grant contract that could have been used to get a big man except Mitch didn't see anyone he liked. Lakers could have panicked and gotten broken down J.O'Neal and not be in position to get Gasol. 

His best virtue is , unlike most GM's, he is quite patient.


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## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

I like Mitch. For awhile after the Shaq trade I was getting restless, but in hindsight it looks like he was just positioning the Lakers for future success. He has been successfull in the draft, especially considering what he got to work with.

He is not perfect though, and we had many years with bad wing players because of bad MLE type contracts.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Look at players drafted where Vujacic, Walton and Cook were and see how many minutes they have on their resume. The Atkins deal was actually a good one, he traded the corpses of Payton and Fox and got back 3 of their top 6 scorers that year, including Mihm who was their 3rd best player two years in a row.
> 
> Did Grant have two years left on his deal when we traded for him as well? How is that toxic?


Vareajo, Prince, Arenas, etc. were all on the board when Vujacic, Walton and Cook were drafted. There's more but I'm too lazy to look up the rest. Sorry, but that's dropping the ball. And Payton at in 04 was considerably better than everything Atkins did for the Lakers. Mihm was of course decent...and that's it. 

Grant had $30M+ left and essentially didn't play. That's a toxic waste of money, put it that way. And the Lakers were trading Shaq, not some scrub, to get him.


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## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

you cant just pick and choose the good players left on the draft board, and then say someone failed for not getting them. Hindsight makes it look really easy to pick talent. You cant expect one GM to pick all the hidden gems out of every draft.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

LA68 said:


> You ever notice, you only see Kupchak, Dr.Buss or West when its time to collect rings ?? They have a system and rarely deviate from it. Its worked a long time.
> 
> Just remember: Healthy Kwame at center 26-13 record. Kwame gets hurt 5-20 and returns to the lineup at 31-33. That's the difference he made. The Lakers since 1969 have always had a big defensive center. Without post defense, you have nothing.
> 
> ...


This.

Hell, I am not going to lie, I wanted them to dump Bynum for Kidd in the summer of 2007. But luckily, Mitch is smarter then me.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Cap said:


> Vareajo, Prince, Arenas, etc. were all on the board when Vujacic, Walton and Cook were drafted. There's more but I'm too lazy to look up the rest. Sorry, but that's dropping the ball. And Payton at in 04 was considerably better than everything Atkins did for the Lakers. Mihm was of course decent...and that's it.


Well Prince and Arenas weren't they were drafted in prior years. Regardless I never said Mitch got the BEST player available in those drafts, just that he got better than average for that position. Better than average makes him a better average GM right?

And you mean to tell me you would of rather had Payton than Atkins, Jones and Mihm? Considering Grant and Vlade were hurt who would of been the center?



> Grant had $30M+ left and essentially didn't play. That's a toxic waste of money, put it that way. And the Lakers were trading Shaq, not some scrub, to get him.


Toxic waste of Buss's money only. He wasn't the centerpiece in that Shaq trade, Odom and Butler were. It was either Grant or Jones. In the end I would say the Shaq trade worked out nicely for LA, wouldn't you?

Which goes back to my earlier point that his only horrid trade was Butler for Kwame, but thankfully he only signed Kwame to 2 years with a option for a 3rd. That expiring of course nabbed the Spainiard.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Well Prince and Arenas weren't they were drafted in prior years.


Kareem Rush was taken in 03 when Prince was available. How'd Rush turn out? Come on, that alone could have quite easily cost the Lakers a title in 04. Arenas was taken in 01 when the Lakers had a shot at him but instead traded someone's rights to New York. 



> Regardless I never said Mitch got the BEST player available in those drafts, just that he got better than average for that position. Better than average makes him a better average GM right?


Haha, right of course, except Kupchak didn't actually get better than average for that position, he got complete wash-outs or some of the worst players in the league, unless you're honestly going to sit here and tell us Luke Walton (soon to retire at 28), Kareem Rush (out of the league by his late 20's, not due to injury either), Sasha Vujacic (self-explanatory), and Slava Medvedenko (out of the league by age mid-20's, also not due to injuries), etc. were above average players? I certainly hope not.



> And you mean to tell me you would of rather had Payton than Atkins, Jones and Mihm? Considering Grant and Vlade were hurt who would of been the center?


Mihm was oft-injured, decent but oft-injured, Jumaine Jones was a 1-year rental they traded for a 2nd round pick, and Atkins was barely average. Payton played 3 more seasons and at the very least could helped out any of a number of young guards on the Lakers. But fact is that team went nowhere and Atkins was certainly part of the problem. 



> Toxic waste of Buss's money only. He wasn't the centerpiece in that Shaq trade, Odom and Butler were. It was either Grant or Jones. In the end I would say the Shaq trade worked out nicely for LA, wouldn't you?


Shaq needing to be traded, a good thing by itself, is independent from getting back good value for said player in trade. They ended up with Odom and didn't really get much of Butler since he played one lottery season. He made up for it later in the decade by trading Kwame for Gasol of course, but that's of course why I made a distinction between early Kupchak and late Kupchak.



> Which goes back to my earlier point that his only horrid trade was Butler for Kwame, but thankfully he only signed Kwame to 2 years with a option for a 3rd. That expiring of course nabbed the Spainiard.


Right, again, a big difference between Rush/Slava/Cook/Sasha/Walton/Atkins/Odom/Butler in draft/trade compared to Bynum/Farmar/Marc Gasol(07)/Brown/Pau Gasol/Ariza and now probably Blake and Barnes. A tale of two completely Kupchak's; one who was clearly one of the worst GMs in the league from fall 01 to May 05 (not average if you actually add up his body of work), and the one from summer 05 to present, one of the very best.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Cap said:


> Kareem Rush was taken in 03 when Prince was available. How'd Rush turn out? Come on, that alone could have quite easily cost the Lakers a title in 04. Arenas was taken in 01 when the Lakers had a shot at him but instead traded someone's rights to New York.


Again, look at players drafted around where Kareem Rush was and tell me how they usually pan out. For every Prince you name I can name a ton of Marcus Haslips, Ryan Humphrey and Curtis Borchardts.

Unless your expectations is a GM has to get the ABSOLUTE best player out of every pick, which is unrealistic. 

That means drafting Akeem Olajuwon was an utter failure.

Go back to every draft in the last 20 years and see what percentage of players drafted after pick 20 played more than 300 career games in the NBA.



> Haha, right of course, except Kupchak didn't actually get better than average for that position, he got complete wash-outs or some of the worst players in the league, unless you're honestly going to sit here and tell us-


Again, look at the actual position. You want a GM to nab all-stars at the end of the first round and second round? There is a reason you remember Prince and Arenas being drafted late, it's very rare.



> Luke Walton (soon to retire at 28),



Maciej Lampe	PF Poland	New York Knicks (from Denver)[14]	Complutense University of Madrid (Spain)
2	31	Jason Kapono	F/G United States	Cleveland Cavaliers	UCLA
2	32	Luke Walton	SF United States	Los Angeles Lakers (from Toronto)[15]	Arizona
2	33	Jerome Beasley	PF United States	Miami Heat	North Dakota
2	34	Sofoklis Schortsanitis	C Greece	Los Angeles Clippers	Iraklis BC (Greece)
2	35	Szymon Szewczyk	PF Poland	Milwaukee Bucks (from Memphis)[16]	Braunschweig (Germany)
2	36	Mario Austin	PF United States	Chicago Bulls	Mississippi State
2	37	Travis Hansen	SG United States	Atlanta Hawks	BYU
2	38	Steve Blake	PG United States	Washington Wizards	Maryland
2	39	Slavko Vraneš	C Serbia and Montenegro	New York Knicks	Budućnost Podgorica (Serbia and Montenegro and Adriatic League)
2	40	Derrick Zimmerman	PG United States	Golden State Warriors	Mississippi State
2	41	Willie Green	SG United States	Seattle SuperSonics (traded to Philadelphia)[17]	Detroit Mercy
2	42	Zaza Pachulia	PF Georgia	Orlando Magic	Ülkerspor (Turkey)
2	43	Keith Bogans	SG United States	Milwaukee Bucks (traded to Orlando)[18]	Kentucky
2	44	Malick Badiane	PF Senegal	Houston Rockets	Langen (Germany)
2	45	Matt Bonner	F United States	Chicago Bulls (from Phoenix,[19] traded to Toronto)[20]	Florida
2	46	Sani Bečirović	SG Slovenia	Denver Nuggets (from Boston)[21]	Virtus Bologna (Italy)
2	47	Mo Williams+	PG United States	Utah Jazz	Alabama
2	48	James Lang	C United States	New Orleans Hornets	Central Park Christian HS (Birmingham, AL)
2	49	James Jones	SF United States	Indiana Pacers	Miami
2	50	Paccelis Morlende	PG France	Philadelphia 76ers (traded to Seattle)[17]	Dijon (France)
2	51	Kyle Korver	SF United States	New Jersey Nets (traded to Philadelphia)[22]	Creighton
2	52	Remon van de Hare	C Netherlands	Toronto Raptors (from Los Angeles Lakers)[15]	FC Barcelona (Spain)
2	53	Tommy Smith	PF United States	Chicago Bulls (from Detroit via Miami)[23]	Arizona State
2	54	Nedžad Sinanović	C Bosnia and Herzegovina	Portland Trail Blazers	Brotnjo (Bosnia and Herzegovina)
2	55	Rick Rickert	PF United States	Minnesota Timberwolves	Minnesota
2	56	Brandon Hunter	PF United States	Boston Celtics (from Sacramento)[24]	Ohio
2	57	Xue Yuyang	C China	Dallas Mavericks (traded to Denver)[25]	Hong Kong Flying Dragons (China)
2	58	Andreas Glyniadakis	C Greece	Detroit Pistons (from San Antonio)[26]

That is your 2003 second round. Luke Walton is sixth on that list in games played and started. 6th out of 30 is better than average. Out by age 28? TWELVE of those guys never entered the league.



> Kareem Rush (out of the league by his late 20's, not due to injury either)


I'll spare you the list again, but the only players drafted after Rush that have more career games is Prince, John Salmons, Dan Gadzuric, Carlos Boozer, Flip Murray, Matt Barnes, Darius Songalia and Rasual Butler. Did I mention that 38 players were drafted after Rush?



> Sasha Vujacic (self-explanatory)


Too easy with this one. Only FOUR players drafted after Slava have more career points, Varejao, Beno Udrith, Chris Duhon and Trevor Ariza. Only Udrith and Duhon have played in more games, and Slava has been on a playoff team all but one season. 


> and Slava Medvedenko (out of the league by age mid-20's, also not due to injuries), etc. were above average players? I certainly hope not.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but Slava was undrafted and never made more than 2 million a year. All I said is these were above average for a rational expectation of the resources used to obtain them (not a lot of cash and very low draft picks. You're basically admitting you had unrealistic expectations for Mitch all along. If these were lottery picks that would of been one thing.

Hell in West's last two drafts he grabbed Mark Madsen and Devean George. Guys who also you mock but have done much better than their average counterparts at that draft position over the course of their career.



> Mihm was oft-injured, decent but oft-injured, Jumaine Jones was a 1-year rental they traded for a 2nd round pick, and Atkins was barely average. Payton played 3 more seasons and at the very least could helped out any of a number of young guards on the Lakers. But fact is that team went nowhere and Atkins was certainly part of the problem.


So you would of rather had Payton for one year than Atkins, Mihm and Jones? Yes or no?



> Shaq needing to be traded, a good thing by itself, is independent from getting back good value for said player in trade. They ended up with Odom and didn't really get much of Butler since he played one lottery season. He made up for it later in the decade by trading Kwame for Gasol of course, but that's of course why I made a distinction between early Kupchak and late Kupchak.


What else could of been done there? Demand Wade? Swap Grant for Eddie Jones?




> Right, again, a big difference between Rush/Slava/Cook/Sasha/Walton/Atkins/Odom/Butler in draft/trade compared to Bynum/Farmar/Marc Gasol(07)/Brown/Pau Gasol/Ariza and now probably Blake and Barnes. A tale of two completely Kupchak's; one who was clearly one of the worst GMs in the league from fall 01 to May 05 (not average if you actually add up his body of work), and the one from summer 05 to present, one of the very best.


The biggest difference is the old Kupchak used the 22nd pick (Rush), $300,000 (Slava), 24th pick (Cook), 29th pick (Sasha), Payton's corpse, Shaq demanding out. You didn't even list Payton and Malone but did Blake, Farmar and Barnes?


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## Sean (Jun 7, 2002)

Not that it really matters, but Rush was drafted by Toronto for the Lakers. The Lakers actually drafted Chris Jeffries and traded him to Toronto in a pre-arranged deal.


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## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

FWIW I thought kareem Rush was going to be a good NBA player. He had a sick stroke.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

dp


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Again, look at players drafted around where Kareem Rush was and tell me how they usually pan out. For every Prince you name I can name a ton of Marcus Haslips, Ryan Humphrey and Curtis Borchardts.
> 
> Unless your expectations is a GM has to get the ABSOLUTE best player out of every pick, which is unrealistic.


Not the absolute best, just players that can actually contribute. Kupchak not only drafted terribly (as in he didn't draft or pick up a single FA steal between fall 2001 and May 2005) but he kept them on for years taking up roster space; Slava, Rush, Sasha, Walton, and even George, who West drafted, was re-upped for several years by Kupchak. All of these guys had no discernable game and the Lakers should have cut their losses with them. In fact, drafting bad players is entirely forgivable if you know how to adjust on the fly and cut your losses. This was perhaps Kupchak's steepest learning curve when it came to drafting before 2005. 



> That means drafting Akeem Olajuwon was an utter failure.


No, he had actual game. :laugh: 



> Go back to every draft in the last 20 years and see what percentage of players drafted after pick 20 played more than 300 career games in the NBA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You keep listing games played (instead of minutes funnily enough) as if it actually matters in a conversation about why the Lakers should have never given these guys any chances. Any 2nd round draft pick can quite conceivably play as many games as Luke Walton next to Shaq/Kobe/Phil, and contribute what he did, so it's really just the fact that Kupchak gave these guys a chance to begin with and then, despite clearly they showing no discernible impact, still kept them on the roster for years giving Walton a $30M 6 year deal and Sasha $15M for 3 years.

Besides, your argument makes no sense on its face; since it's rare to see 2nd rounders make an NBA roster, how does the fact that Walton made an NBA roster as the worst of the 2nd rounders that made a roster automatically mean Kupchak drafted better than average? Just because he actually got NBA minutes doesn't mean he was a success, since 2nd rounders normally don't make rosters even if they're halfway talented due to _roster limitations_. You can only carry a certain amount of players and most teams draft their projects in the first round to begin with. This is just a sad case of moving goal posts to claim Kupchak was better than average. 



> I'll spare you the list again, but the only players drafted after Rush that have more career games is Prince, John Salmons, Dan Gadzuric, Carlos Boozer, Flip Murray, Matt Barnes, Darius Songalia and Rasual Butler. Did I mention that 38 players were drafted after Rush?


There are also much better players after Rush who played exactly 2/3rds of his career with the Lakers. The market is a very good judge of talent and fact is no one valued Rush's talent despite years and years of the Lakers showcasing the guy, and it shows now that he'll probably be out of the league by age 29. The fact that 38 players were drafted after Rush means exactly bupkis, the NBA has a limit on how many players you can actually put on a roster and most 2nd rounders, even if talented, aren't worth the investment since better players in FA/trade are often available. 



> Too easy with this one. Only FOUR players drafted after Slava have more career points, Varejao, Beno Udrith, Chris Duhon and Trevor Ariza. Only Udrith and Duhon have played in more games, and Slava has been on a playoff team all but one season.


I can't even tell if you're serious with this one. Slava Medvedeno? More points? Really doesn't deserve a response. 



> Correct me if I'm wrong, but Slava was undrafted and never made more than 2 million a year. All I said is these were above average for a rational expectation of the resources used to obtain them (not a lot of cash and very low draft picks. You're basically admitting you had unrealistic expectations for Mitch all along. If these were lottery picks that would of been one thing.


I didn't say each pick had to be golden, I merely pointed out the obvious pattern; that he didn't get a single steal, in the first or 2nd round, before 2005. And in 05 he still drafted Farmar late in the 1st round and it was certainly a hell of a lot better pick than Kareem freaking Rush. His fundamental philosophy changed. His FA pickups changed. 



> Hell in West's last two drafts he grabbed Mark Madsen and Devean George. Guys who also you mock but have done much better than their average counterparts at that draft position over the course of their career.


No, they really haven't. 



> So you would of rather had Payton for one year than Atkins, Mihm and Jones? Yes or no?


I would have rather had Payton for a few more years in hindsight of how bad Atkins, Mihm and Jones were. Jones was a nice surprise, but they were all rentals that didn't actually contribute to the long-term rebuilding of the Lakers. Payton would have. Granted, this was Kucphak's best trade prior to 05 so he gets some credit. Just not much if your standards are reasonable. 



> What else could of been done there? Demand Wade? Swap Grant for Eddie Jones?


WTF? Not be traded to Miami for one, that's a start. No one forced Kupchak to Miami. 



> The biggest difference is the old Kupchak used the 22nd pick (Rush), $300,000 (Slava), 24th pick (Cook), 29th pick (Sasha), Payton's corpse, Shaq demanding out. You didn't even list Payton and Malone but did Blake, Farmar and Barnes?


Payton and Malone admitted they didn't actually talk to Kupchak until they both mutually agreed to come to the Lakers, with Kupchak publicly confirming that story. I know you want to give him his due credit, but he's not getting it for Payton/Malone if you're honest with the facts.

Also, that's to say nothing of his FA signings, where the excuse that he couldn't spend is quite clearly out window. McKie and Divac were beyond failures and, again, these guys were expected to make major contributions at their advanced ages with no backup plan in place while similtaneously depending on mediocre talent like Rush or Walton as the backup plan. Again, these guys were kept on the rosters for years, and what should have happened is they should have been cut to make way for actual talent years ago. When West drafted poorly he cut players or got rid of them; guys like Troy Bell for example, a bust, were drafted and West cut his losses. Meanwhile Slava played for the Lakers for 6 years and Walton is still an anchor to this day. going into his 8th season.

EDIT: And I didn't mention it before, but it's pretty well known that since teams are _forced_ to draft, you have no choice but to do so. So the reason you see 38+ wash-outs, most in the 2nd round, isn't just because they suck, it's because teams usually have much better options in trade/FA and as I said before, have limitations on how many players they can carry. The good GMs, forced to draft in the 2nd round, will do the best they can but normally give their picks away in some form or fashion, and certainly do not make the lethal mistake of keeping these guys on for years. That's just epically bad, and a far worse offense than making a 2nd round pick that never makes the roster. Teams _rely_ on 2nd round picks not making rosters because they can't give those picks away fast enough a lot of times.


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## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

Cap you're out of your mind.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Cap said:


> EDIT: And I didn't mention it before, but it's pretty well known that since teams are _forced_ to draft, you have no choice but to do so. So the reason you see 38+ wash-outs, most in the 2nd round, isn't just because they suck, it's because teams usually have much better options in trade/FA and as I said before, have limitations on how many players they can carry. The good GMs, forced to draft in the 2nd round, will do the best they can but normally give their picks away in some form or fashion, and certainly do not make the lethal mistake of keeping these guys on for years. That's just epically bad, and a far worse offense than making a 2nd round pick that never makes the roster. Teams _rely_ on 2nd round picks not making rosters because they can't give those picks away fast enough a lot of times.


I read this literally 6 times and I'm not convinced you actually believe it. Kupchak wasn't average, he sucks because he didn't draft washouts or good players.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

I think the problem isn't so much drafting Luke Walton as it is giving him a massive contract. When you add in the signings of George, Sasha, and McKie it's clear that Mitch has made some mistakes. He's still an above average GM though.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> I read this literally 6 times and I'm not convinced you actually believe it. Kupchak wasn't average, he sucks because he didn't draft washouts or good players.


It's not hard to understand; draft good players then great, keep them. Don't draft good players, then at least try to cut your losses by dumping them. See, I summed it up in 22 words. Was it worth it to keep Kareem Rush, Luke Walton, Slava Medvedenko, and Sasha Vujacic a combined 2 decades for $50M? The right answer is no.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Cap said:


> It's not hard to understand; draft good players then great, keep them. Don't draft good players, then at least try to cut your losses by dumping them. See, I summed it up in 22 words. Was it worth it to keep Kareem Rush, Luke Walton, Slava Medvedenko, and Sasha Vujacic a combined 2 decades for $50M? The right answer is no.


Kupchak drafted better than average. You refute this by saying the purpose is to draft washouts and not give them long contracts. If anything you just claimed Kupchak doesn't manage contracts well, not a counterpoint to the claim he drafted well.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Jamel Irief said:


> Kupchak drafted better than average. You refute this by saying the purpose is to draft washouts and not give them long contracts. If anything you just claimed Kupchak doesn't manage contracts well, not a counterpoint to the claim he drafted well.


My whole point was quite clear from my very first sentence in this thread that read "Kupchak has done a complete 180 from being terrible to, essentially, being the best *GM* in the NBA". _General manager_ quite obviously includes the ability to keep and sign players to good or bad contracts. Brian Grant wasn't a good contract for a rebuilding team. Walton wasn't a good contract for a rebuilding team. This isn't earth shattering stuff, he was quite clearly not a good GM for many years.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

I mean really, anyone arguing that a GM was above average despite the reality that he only drafted/signed/traded for one single worthy player, Lamar Odom, for a 4 year period because some of his 2nd round picks played _a lot of games_, well, speaks for itself. Especially when you're just blatantly ignoring that Kareem Rush, Luke Walton, Slava Medvedenko, and Sasha Vujacic stayed a combined 22 years for $50M+, with the later two anchor contracts on a championship team. Which shows how great 2005-Present Kupchak has been. No need to pretend 2001-May 2005 was worth a damn, though. It was pretty awful.


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## elcap15 (Aug 8, 2006)

I think you are being very short sighted Cap. Brian Grant was the product of a fire sale of one the most expensive contracts in the league that had to be done quickly so Mitch could resign KOBE BRYANT. Just like you dont mention how bad extending Kwame for something like $11M seemed, but it was the cornerstone of a future trade that got Pau Gasol.

Mitch isnt perfect, but he is a good GM. Its not easy to build a great team, and always takes years to accomplish.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Cap said:


> I mean really, anyone arguing that a GM was above average despite the reality that he only drafted/signed/traded for one single worthy player, Lamar Odom, for a 4 year period because some of his 2nd round picks played _a lot of games_, well, speaks for itself. Especially when you're just blatantly ignoring that Kareem Rush, Luke Walton, Slava Medvedenko, and Sasha Vujacic stayed a combined 22 years for $50M+, with the later two anchor contracts on a championship team. Which shows how great 2005-Present Kupchak has been. No need to pretend 2001-May 2005 was worth a damn, though. It was pretty awful.


I said he was better than average, not brilliant. My reasoning was he drafted better than average and had only one bad trade (Kwame). Who or what was he supposed to trade for those worthy players? You forgot Butler as well, and Mihm was better than any player he aquired after 2005 except Gasol, Bynum and Artest. And actually if you don't want to count Payton and Malone you really can't count Fisher and Artest either, since I doubt Mitch influenced their decisions much. The Grant, Walton and Sasha contracts hardly hurt the team, only Buss' wallet. He had little resources those 5 years outside of Shaq, who was bashing Kupchak, the owner, and the free agent 24 year old superstar ready to leave town (Kobe) in the press. It was damn hard under those circumstances for Kupchak to get a better package than Odom, Butler, Grant and the first. He did try to get Dirk from Dallas and Wade from Miami.

He's improved of course, but it's easier to improve when you have a lottery pick to draft an Andrew Bynum or a huge expiring contract to trade for a Pau Gasol. Not to mention it's easier to lure free agents like Artest, Blake and Matt Barnes when you have the appeal of being a defending champion versus a team that was gutted to please your owner and superstar player. Do you really not think his improved resources had anything to do with the team turning around?


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

^ His improved resources had a lot to do with him drafting Andrew Bynum, sure, never denied that. But it was also self-induced, since he orchestrated the 04-05 team as their General Manager. And he also drafted Jordan Farmar as late as some of his other major busts, including Kareem Rush, whom Farmar has been quite a bit better than. 

In terms of not giving him credit for Fisher I will concede, sure, but Fisher hasn't been a deal breaker nor is he particularly great. He's a nice vet. Someone like Artest you have to give him much more credit for than Fish since even if you want to argue (sensibly) that Artest really wanted LA, Artest has also claimed that he gave Houston first dibs. Bottom line is that Kupchak moved very fast, as in hours not days, in signing Artest when Ariza's agent called his bluff (based on what we've read in the papers), and he also offered Artest a long contract that probably was going to be the best offer he was going to get. So Kupchak definitely did his due diligence on Artest, nothing like Malone/Payton who quite obviously were extreme anomalies. And getting guys like Barnes, Blake, etc. is due to the appeal of being a championship team, yes.....but why would we count that against Kupchak since he actually built those championship teams and the credit for said positive FA side-effects of being champions should therefore go in large part to Kupchak, yes? 

Walton and Sasha's contracts have also quite clearly hurt the team unless you're saying the Lakers couldn't have done something better with $11M in contracts including being able to actually deal them for players that are better fits, and if we're being honest here trading them is something that likely isn't possible because of how terrible and injury-prone both are. Brian Grant was also a massive expiring contract, significantly bigger than Kwame's, and Kupchak got nothing for it. So clearly recent Mitch got more with expiring contracts than younger Mitch, and we can argue all day I suppose that circumstances may have been different and Kupchak simply didn't have the same opportunities to trade for a great player when Grant was on the books while he did with Kwame. However, we don't actually know that for certain and, based on that premise, GM's shouldn't get very much credit for making trades if we're going to say they were a product of their time and position. 

But I'll certainly give you that he had better resources with earlier picks, but that was just once with Bynum. Thing is, you can still make mistakes with lottery picks and Kupchak certainly found an extremely unknown quantity who would draft much higher with what we know now, so he made the most of it. We'll never know if he could have done it between 2001 and 2005, that's just the way it is. But there's no definition of above average here. The actual players he drafted aren't statistically or observationally above average, and having long contracts simply does not _only_ affect Buss' wallet, if affects their ability to sign and trade for other, better players.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Cap said:


> ^ His improved resources had a lot to do with him drafting Andrew Bynum, sure, never denied that. But it was also self-induced, since he orchestrated the 04-05 team as their General Manager. And he also drafted Jordan Farmar as late as some of his other major busts, including Kareem Rush, whom Farmar has been quite a bit better than.
> 
> In terms of not giving him credit for Fisher I will concede, sure, but Fisher hasn't been a deal breaker nor is he particularly great. He's a nice vet. Someone like Artest you have to give him much more credit for than Fish since even if you want to argue (sensibly) that Artest really wanted LA, Artest has also claimed that he gave Houston first dibs. Bottom line is that Kupchak moved very fast, as in hours not days, in signing Artest when Ariza's agent called his bluff (based on what we've read in the papers), and he also offered Artest a long contract that probably was going to be the best offer he was going to get. So Kupchak definitely did his due diligence on Artest, nothing like Malone/Payton who quite obviously were extreme anomalies. And getting guys like Barnes, Blake, etc. is due to the appeal of being a championship team, yes.....but why would we count that against Kupchak since he actually built those championship teams and the credit for said positive FA side-effects of being champions should therefore go in large part to Kupchak, yes?
> 
> ...



Grant was waived with that weird amensty clause. Buss just wanted to let him go for nothing so that he would save 30 million off the luxury tax. You can hardly fault Mitch for that. Sasha and Luke's contract's don't really hurt the team in the sense that the Lakers weren't going to have cap space either way, so really all you are doing by signing them to big deals is making them harder to trade. However as you clearly feel they aren't really tradable assets regardless of what they are making.

The Lakers won two championships and 3 conference titles under Kupchak's earlier regime. He at least deserves some credit for simply not screwing it up, as his biggest blunder in that time frame was trading away Butler for Kwame. Every year we see numerous GM's panicking and pulling the trigger on absolutely horrid trades and free agent signings, so simply keeping poison out grants him SOME credit in my book.

I always felt that Laker fans gave him a bad rap in part because he didn't really have the balls to try to do much. Sure he wasn't making any bad moves, but he was barely making any period. The only major moves he made until Payton-Malone were the Lindsey Hunter trade, Horace Grant for Glen Rice and JR Rider signings. When he got more to play with and didn't have the comfort of the Kobe-Shaq-Phil-Cheap Vets recipe he started demonstrating that Jerry West mentoring.


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