# The New Lineup



## J19 (Nov 16, 2004)

Shandon Anderson > Tim Thomas

Lavor Postel > Tim Thomas


The fat kid on my basketball team > Tim Thomas


bakc to the subject


Marbury
Crawford
penny
Kurt Thomas
Nzar


Bench
Sweetney
Jerome Williams
Ariza
Tim Thomas


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Penny is a very smart player and for some odd reason we seem to run better when he is in the lineup....TT,who I supported is completely brain dead..Hes clueless on the court

we have no choice but to shake things up


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## chewgum (Nov 3, 2004)

Penny, though not a scorer like he used to be, is a much smarter player today. He realizes that he's no longer athletic and so he resorts to smartness now. I have no idea why the Knicks don't at least give him a few starts to see.


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## J19 (Nov 16, 2004)

Crawford and Marbury can do that, Penny is a good passer and can hit open jump shots


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

As long as TT works his butt off on D,he is ok at the 3.its only a question of time before he breaks out offensively..

the most important thing is the Knicks have to get after people on Defense..They have the offense


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

It's possible there are silver linings in TT's slump.

One is that it will force him to concentrate on other aspects of his game and develop them. The other is that it has allowed Crawford to mesh more quickly.

I'm not willing to start Penny, I don't trust him for nothing. His D is overrated and his jumper is hardly reliable. I'd rather keep the faith in TT and let him get back to at least career average level. He may never be an all-star but he's never been this bad before. He just needs to return to normal.

And I'll give Marbury some early credit on a couple of fronts. 1) He's been playing pretty conservative turnover free ball, doing a pretty good job running the offense. 2) He's showing no signs of being a prima donna and needing to be the high scorer.

On the negative side, after all the talk of 'running' this year, short of an occasional obvious opportunity, like off a steal, he still doesn't push the tempo to pressure the defense.

Kurt has been outstanding (you know, for a role player.) I hope he doesn't slump, his consistency has been keeping us alive.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Its been an interesting start...

Marbury has made huge strides as a leader on the team and really meshed well with JC

Kt has proven me wrong once again..The guy is solid..

TT slumping is no big deal..His shot will fall..I completely agree with you on him picking up the rest of his game..I just want him to play smart,play D and contribute in other ways..


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> One is that it will force him to concentrate on other aspects of his game and develop them.


Not for nothing, but I highly doubt this this first shooting slump of Tim Thomas' career.



> TT slumping is no big deal..His shot will fall..I completely agree with you on him picking up the rest of his game..I just want him to play smart,play D and contribute in other ways..


But that's just it. Even if the shot falls, he's still a one dimensional player. When the shots not falling, he's a zero dimensional player. If the guy was lights out like Houston, then fine, but his jumper is nowhere near as good or consistent.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Not for nothing, but I highly doubt this this first shooting slump of Tim Thomas' career.
> ...


Yes, yes, that's all fair enough. It gets harder and harder to defend TT. But my point is people are relating to him as thought this is the real TT when the truth of the matter is this probably represents one of his career low points. If he were just playing at his normal level it would be a significant improvement, and the Knicks might even have a couple more wins to show for it.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Additionally, wasn't Isiah's reasoning for trading for TT that he wanted to get more athletic? Where is this athleticism? Thomas doesn't go to the basket even half as much as Van Horn does. Sure KVH travels at least once per game, but that sieems to be the standard for TT when he's not even driving.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Pretty sure Isiah's stated reason for the trade was to upgrade from Doleac to Nazr, and Nazr has been drastically outplayng Doleac, esp. since his Ramadan fasting ended.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashidi,Even you must see that TT is more athletic than KVH..TT can take it coast to coast on a break,and do things KVH could never do..Athletisism unfortunately has not tranlated into better play.And Oak said what Zeke has said all along.He would have never traded KVH if he couldnt have gotten Naz...

But feel free to continue to focus on the negative:no:


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Anything to distract from the fact that we are at .500 and first in our division while we were at 3-7 this time last year.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> Rashidi,Even you must see that TT is more athletic than KVH TT can take it coast to coast on a break
> 
> So can Van Horn. Let me know when Thomas does it this year.
> 
> ...


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> This isn't some mark of brilliance. It's called facing crap teams at home


Mr manic,you do realize the more the Knicks win,the more manic you get....


two words for you

lithium..prozac:uhoh:


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Last I checked, the Knicks didn't play the Clippers or Hawks in November last year. However, they did play the Pacers twice (whereas this year we don't face them until what, February?).


Huh???

First off we just played the Pacers 11/13 in Indiana. It was 3 games after we played Minnesota in Minnesota.

Before tonight our last 5 games were Indiana, Spurs, Rockets, Mavericks, Cavs. That's way harder than last year, where we were playing teams like Orlando (worst team in the league) twice, and Clev before McGinnis and Lebron got going. 





> Nevermind that Houston and KVH were both hobbled at said time.


Huh???

And Houston and TT aren't "hobbled" now? In case you didn't know, Houston isn't playing at all and TT has been hobbled by the death of his sister and the very serious condition of his mother who has the same illness his sister died from. She may be near death also for all we know.




> Most fans were already jumping on KVH for his slow start, but TT's has been much worse, and he isn't hobbled.


I already spoke to your not hobbled argument and it's hard to go anywhere that fans aren't shredding TT.



> The Knicks are 1-2 against teams above .600, and 4-1 against teams .500 or lower, one of those wins coming on a luck chuck. They're 4-1 at home and 1-4 on the road. This isn't some mark of brilliance. It's called facing crap teams at home.


Huh???

Atlanta was the only crap team. The rest were:

Minnesota
Boston
Philly
Clippers
Indiana
Spurs
Rockets
Mavericks
Cavs


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Sorry, Oak and Truth....*

But Rashidi is dead on in his assessment of TT. Guy is not a winner...never was. KVH is a more complete player and is no slouch athletically. In fact, when he came in to the league he had a 38" vertical. Do you really think TT's is better? TT is quicker and faster.....and softer. Not sure his stat comparison is valid but his point sure the hell is. You may also be giving TT a bit too much slack because of his personal problems. Sweets was never this bad last year and he was a 21 year old rook.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> And Houston and TT aren't "hobbled" now?


The team has Marbury and Crawford, whom most people here will call a better duo without question.



> First off we just played the Pacers 11/13 in Indiana. It was 3 games after we played Minnesota in Minnesota.


I forgot. Now I remember, is that the game Nazr had like 18 rebounds against a Croshere/O'Neal frontline?

That makes the Knicks 1-3 against .600 teams.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

*Re: Sorry, Oak and Truth....*



> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> But Rashidi is dead on in his assessment of TT. Guy is not a winner...never was. KVH is a more complete player and is no slouch athletically. In fact, when he came in to the league he had a 38" vertical. Do you really think TT's is better? TT is quicker and faster.....and softer. Not sure his stat comparison is valid but his point sure the hell is.


Alpha, I can tell you're gonna be annoying about this till you hear what you want to hear, so I'll say it: KVH is a better all round player than TT. Happy?

I don't know if I've ever said otherwise, and if I have, not for a long time. My mantra has been to see what happens this year.

However, one major difference between you and I has been a willingness to look at the trade in it's entirety, and there is no way that Doleac is close to keeping up with Nazr. But you don't see the trade fans gloating over it and continually posting Doleac's weak stats, do you? No, so maybe that is what's needed.

I'm looking at their last 5 game stats and I'll just post a couple of highlights.

Nazr: 3 best of his last 4 games:

pts/rebs
12 /17
11/9
18/14

Doleac: 3 BEST of his last 4 games:

2/4
3/0
2/3

If you're not careful Nazr alone will be outplaying KVH, and then the comparison will be TT vs Doleac.

Now I see several possible reasons the trade was done, and I'm probably missing more than I'm hitting:

1) Marbury was/is uncomfortable with VH and Isiah wanted a genuine fresh start, not just a figurative one.

2) I don't buy that Isiah wanted to totally clean house of Layden, as he's committed to KT (extension) and Sweets (development and playing time), but I do believe he wanted to "give the team back to the fans" and thus wanted to remove anyone with bad fan karma. VH had his supporters, but far too many detractors. Isiah wanted no boos in his house - obviously backfiring, but a valid concern at the time.

3) Isiah loves reclaimation projects and TT fits the mold. Perhaps he felt all TT needed was some toughness which he and Aguirre could instill. Same as he may be thinking about Curry. You can't teach height, but can you teach heart? I don't know...

4) He felt the difference in talent between VH and TT was less than the difference between Nazr and Doleac, and he knew Deke was going in the summer and needed a plug in center with upside.

Now, which of these are true and which have merit I can't say, but the fact is the trade had reasons that go beyond a simple talent comparison between VH and TT.

Obviously VH is showing himself to be the better player, but when all factors are taken into consideration it's not the bust some would like us to believe. And if TT returns to last years form (19/5 in games of 12 mins or more) and Nazr stays close to current form, it's a no brainer it was the right move. 

Meanwhile I'll default to my mantra, that I will reserve final judgment until late(r) this season.



> You may also be giving TT a bit too much slack because of his personal problems. Sweets was never this bad last year and he was a 21 year old rook.


First off, Sweets sucked this time last year. Second, everyone handles the loss of a parent or sibling differently. Third, the point was that VH was playing "hobbled" this time last year and, similarly, TT is playing "hobbled" this year. 

Do you deny that? Are you telling me:

1) This is normal play for TT (career shooting percentages of 440 FG .361 3pt; this year .305
.272)?

2) That the loss of a sibling and the possible ongoing loss of a parent deserves no consideration in such a conversation?

3) That the team that started last year at 3-7 is better than this years team at 5-5?

Keep your focus man. This grudge you have over the loss of VH is making you don some Rashidi-esque type platitudes. They look good on him, but it's not a good style for you. :grinning:


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> The team has Marbury and Crawford, whom most people here will call a better duo without question.


Well isn't that the point? Are you arguing against yourself again?





> I forgot. Now I remember, is that the game Nazr had like 18 rebounds against a Croshere/O'Neal frontline?


Yes, Nazr had a solid game against one of the better bigmen in he game.



> That makes the Knicks 1-3 against .600 teams.




Doesn't change the fact they are 5-5 against competition at least as good as last year's which was at 3-7.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

I just want to address the situation with TT's family again. 

I don't want to over play it or down play it, I just want to reiterate what little news we have on the matter. We were told by Breen during a game that his sister died of a serious illness and his mother and wife have the same serious illness. He did not say what their condition is. I turned up nothing in google searches.

So it's possible this guy is losing the brunt of his immediate family all at once. IF that is the case it's no joke.

That said, if he's too distracted by it perhaps he should be on the IR, or playing a reserve role. I understand fans intolerance of poor play. But to use his current play to validate every negative thought people have ever had about this guy is cheap and shallow, IMHO.

(not directed at alpha or anyone in particular)


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

ALFA 

Unlike "ANTIZEKE" everyone is pretty objevtive about the team.In no way have I ever said TT is playing good ball,in fact I have been bashing his game and basketball IQ and intensity..

But Rashidi,will make a statement 


> Additionally, wasn't Isiah's reasoning for trading for TT that he wanted to get more athletic


And then worm his way around it...As for you,you are catching a bit of Rashidi-itis...

Oak and I merely responded to Rashidis statement ,which is a waste of time, as he knows computers and nothing about athletes.You even said TT is quicker and faster.Simply put,TT is more athletic than KVH .I did say



> Athletisism unfortunately has not tranlated into better play


Its been clear you never liked the trade and your subjectivity prevents you from looking at the total trade..For the last time,it was KVH and Doleac for TT and Naz.....Not much different from having to take Penny if we wanted Marbury...

Zeke has said it over and over..He wants to get more athletic..Marbury,TT,Naz,JC and keep Sweetney... Out goes Eisly,KVH,Doleac,Weatherspoon,Lampe and Shandone..

Its a team,not a collection of individual talents.KVH is playing better ball than TT right now.He didnt at the end of last year..Who CARES???He is not a Knick.Nor is Shandone,Eisly,Ward,Weatherspoon,Lampe or Doleac and the other retreads...

Rashidi is not playing with a full deck.The Knicks win,Miami loses and he brings up Shandone at the expense of TT,and then questions TT's athleticism vs KVH.. 


Please Alfa, a little objectivity


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> I just want to address the situation with TT's family again.


Oak,it is so painfully obvious that TT wants to be anywhere but on the court.His head is somewhere else.

And to be honest,I have no idea why we are having KVH or Shandone conversations,especially after Knick wins...

If people still dont understand it was Naz and TT we traded for,i do not expect them to grasp the intagable concept of how a serious family matter could affect their play...


What I suggest is completley ignoring Rashidis insane emotional outbursts regarding the Layden clan...In fact,his next mention of KVH,Shandone or Eisly will land him on my ignore list..


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*I never hid my distaste for the trade.*

I also understand that Nazr was the "centerpiece". Now, in light of his increased scoring and rebounding I have a question or two....Actually statements. One Nazr gets a lot of his own misses for rebounds and the shots he is making are shots that anyone in the league would make...courtesy of Marbury et al. That being said, if he continues to improve, he makes the trade a good one. TT on the other hand is still a loser. I know he has troubles but the guy has never been a winner. He has ALWAYS played with inconsistent effort anf THAT will tear a team down.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*BTW...*

Sweetney never sucked last year; he just had trouble finishing. He ALWAYS played hard, though.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Alfa,I know better than anyone that you were against TT

And i also know you are sane enough to realize that TT is all potential,very gifted and will 99% never live up to it...I was "duped",fell for the P word but am giving him a pass for now as i think there are extenuating circumstances and its just not possible that he could get this bad this quickly...

But,he has to bring it on D and show some effort...

Alfa,you also have to read rashidis threads from start to finish.He is soley on this board to be argumenatative,and all I said was TT is more athletic than KVH..Not better...

Furthermore this wont occur as i have him on my IGNORE list so I wont be reading his posts any longer..:laugh:


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

*Re: I never hid my distaste for the trade.*



> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> I also understand that Nazr was the "centerpiece". Now, in light of his increased scoring and rebounding I have a question or two....Actually statements. One Nazr gets a lot of his own misses for rebounds and the shots he is making are shots that anyone in the league would make...courtesy of Marbury et al. That being said, if he continues to improve, he makes the trade a good one.


Yes, he gets a lot of rebounds off put backs, his or otherwise. That's true of most guys who play 5 feet from the rim, like Brand.

And no, not everyone one would make the shots he makes because a lot of guys, like Doleac, play 15 feet from the rim and wouldn't be there for the chip shots.

Whether he keeps up this level of play is anybody's guess, but I'd have to assume that with confidence and chemistry his role and production could stay here or go higher. I certainly believe as he gets more comfortable he'll rush his shot less and become more efficient.



> TT on the other hand is still a loser. I know he has troubles but the guy has never been a winner. He has ALWAYS played with inconsistent effort anf THAT will tear a team down.


There is of course elements of truth in that, but do you really think his current problems stem from effort? You're a big fan of Wally, do you honestly believe if his family were dying around him and his shot suffered that you'd see a tremendous increase in defense and rebounding from him? I don't think so. 

Still we see a good effort from Tim on Lebron and a 9 rebound effort. And if you watch him play and look at his shot charts he is taking good shots, they just aren't dropping.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

*Re: BTW...*



> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> Sweetney never sucked last year; he just had trouble finishing. He ALWAYS played hard, though.


How would you like to quantify sucking and effort? I'd love to see you prove to me that Sweets played harder at this time last year than TT.

Early last year in Sweetney I saw a heavy depressed kid who barely knew who he was on the floor. He was getting his butt handed to him by Spoon.

Confronted by a similar death TT did not get fat, he worked out and got stronger, and for him too, his shots just aren't dropping. 

And presumably he still has two family members in serious life threatening condition. I really don't know what some of you expect under the circumstances.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

The problem is Oak is the pro KVH fans obviously never liked the trade and even last year when TT played well,they never gave him credit due to not living up to the potential..

Its a no win situation...The Knicks are winning and starting to gel,and if you know basketball,it is essential that TT comes around.Its very easy to say dont let your shooting slump affect you,but it takes its toll..

TT's family situation will hopefully take a turn for the better and he will play as he is capable.The Knicks DESPARATELY need his slashing game as it is so different from the other bigs..TT adds a dimension that KT and Sweets do not..

Dis you notice that not a word was said when Lebron scored 17 below his avg??I shudder to think just from the image of KVH covering Lebron


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Truth, I don't mind if people don't like the trade, I still haven't made my mind up on it either. I just can't handle it when people pretend what we are getting from TT now is normal, and that that Nazr and Doleac are some kind of wash.

I give credit to alpha, you know if TT swings things around and Nazr plays well he'll give credit where due. 

But knicks fans at large are a pretty silly group. After Nazr's first couple of weak outing he HAD to be moved for any one who would take him, regardless of his Ramadan fasting. And of course Wilkens needed to be put on the next bus to China. After the home opener to the Celts people were proclaiming the Knicks had given up on him already. People jumping on TT for this stretch just fits right into that short sighted "what have you done for me today" mentality that is hard to deal with.

And I wont even mention the nameless one who acts as if darkest day in Knicks history was the day the scarecrow (if I only had a brain) got fired and we will never recover from the loss.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*It is more than that..*

I don't like the way TT plays ball. He is a black hole...makes poor decisions...plays little defense...and despite his 9 board effort in one game, rebounds far less than a guy of his skill set and size should. He also turns the ball over far too much. Other than those things, I love his game  Seriously, his lack effort bugs me more than anything. If he gave me 15 and 7 and good defense night in and out, I'd keep him. And I don't mean 35 and 12 one night and then 8 and 5 the next three games. That is what i have seen from him.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> In fact,his next mention of KVH,Shandone or Eisly will land him on my ignore list..


Keith Van Horn

Shandon Anderson

Howard Eisley


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Rashidi,it is very liberating to have you on the Ignore list..I can only imagine what you are posting:laugh: 

You are really running out of people who actually engaged you


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

*Re: It is more than that..*



> Originally posted by <b>alphadog</b>!
> I don't like the way TT plays ball. He is a black hole...makes poor decisions...plays little defense...and despite his 9 board effort in one game, rebounds far less than a guy of his skill set and size should. He also turns the ball over far too much. Other than those things, I love his game


And how much different Szczerbiak, a guy you LOVE? Look up both their playoff averages and tell me who looks better for post season battle.

Face it, Szczerbiak, KVH, Doleac... as soon as Sundov's little jumper starts to fall you're gonna tell us how "hard" he plays too.


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

> And how much different Szczerbiak, a guy you LOVE?


Like I've said before, Wally is a vastly better shooter, and like every other SF in the league, is also a better passer than TT. He was playing PG for Minnesota in the playoffs when Cassell went down. Wally also goes to the hole more than TT does.



> Look up both their playoff averages and tell me who looks better for post season battle.


Holy freaking crap. Tim Thomas had one good series, how many years ago? Did you even see that series? Doubtful.

Of course, I fully expect you to bring up his 02-03 playoffs, where he was technically statistically good. He averaged 17.8 ppg. Of course, he also averaged only 4.8 rpg at POWER FORWARD and basically got manhandled and gave up a lot more points to Kenyon Martin on the other end. His 8 assists in 6 games were also marks of brilliance.

Wally averaged 11.8 ppg, 3.3 rpg, and 1.7 apg in 24.8 mpg in last years playoffs as a 6th man 4th option. Man, TT is so much better I can't believe my eyes.


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> 
> 
> Keith Van Horn
> ...


best post ever


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Hey Penny,thanks for sharing that with me...i agree,that was pretty good considering the source


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!Holy freaking crap. Tim Thomas had one good series, how many years ago? Did you even see that series? Doubtful.
> 
> Of course, I fully expect you to bring up his 02-03 playoffs, where he was technically statistically good. He averaged 17.8 ppg. Of course, he also averaged only 4.8 rpg at POWER FORWARD and basically got manhandled and gave up a lot more points to Kenyon Martin on the other end. His 8 assists in 6 games were also marks of brilliance.
> 
> Wally averaged 11.8 ppg, 3.3 rpg, and 1.7 apg in 24.8 mpg in last years playoffs as a 6th man 4th option. Man, TT is so much better I can't believe my eyes.


What option do you think TT has been playing behind Robinson, Cassell and Ray Allen?

And in case you didn't know it both he and Szczerb have each been to the playoffs 5 times and some of Tim's play also came as 6th man, so you can stop trying to make it sound as if TT has had some sort of advantage over WS.

Let me make this easier for you. Here are their playoff averages over 5 rounds:

Wally:
Gms Pts fg% 3p% rpg apg bpg TO
29 12.7 .447 .268 4.0 1.8 .24 2.2

Tim:
Gms Pts fg% 3p% rpg apg bpg TO
33 12.8 .458 .433 4.6 1.5 .64 1.1

And I know you don't believe in these things, but for those of us who do, TT got his in 27 mpg to Wally's 32 mpg. Tim also went to the free throw line at a higher rate.

Sorry if the numbers don't support your case.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Can everyone stop quoting Mr Negativitys posts..:no: 

There must be a way to escape his demented mind...

Oak you should know better..Until Layden comes back with KVH,Eisly,Anderson,Doleac and Spoon he will carry the torch

And AntiZeke is never one to let the numbers come ahead of his emotions


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Rashidi, not sure, was your intent to look at Shandon's output every night?

Just in case... tonight:

Shandon: 29 mins, 6 pts, 2 rbs, 2 TO

Others:

Doleac: 6 mins, 2 pts, 0 rbs, 1 TO

KVH: 30 mins, 12 pts, 9 rbs, 2 TO


Nazr: 32 mins, 25 pts, 14 rbs, 0 TO


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## Rashidi (Oct 2, 2003)

Tim Thomas is noticeably absent from your list.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Why stop there

Eisly..21 min 4 points 3 turnovers
Othello Harrington DNP
Lampe DNP
Vujanic Still missing
Scott Layden 2 burgers, 1 coke


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## Max Payne (Mar 2, 2004)

Actually I'll agree with Rashidi and opt to take Wally over TT anyday of the week...Wally is actually a PROVEN scorer with great shooting and actually TRIES to play D and hustle, two things that are nonexistent in the world of a certain Tim Thomas...we need to get him out of NY ASAP. I love my hometown and I love a hard-working, hustling Knicks team, not one with garbage like TT.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Rashidi</b>!
> Tim Thomas is noticeably absent from your list.


Couple of reasons.

1) Nazr outperformed your lost heros single handedly.

2) I know I'm reiterating this a lot, and I really only do it for you, (as since you make jokes about your girlfriend dying I know you have no concept of true loss) I'm giving TT a pass for now. His sister recently died and his mother and wife have the same illness. Have you stopped just once to consider the impact that could have on a person? Mother, sister, wife. Think about it just once, please.

I'm now of the mind that TT should be taken out of the lineup. If this were a normal shooting slump I'd support Lenny's effort to get Tim involved, to build his confidence, to get him into rhythm. But this is not a conventional slump. I believe TT's equilibrium is too disturbed. He should play a reserve roll until his situation stabilizes.

You know I'm not the numb-nut some of you are. I didn't ridicule KVH when his production went down for injury, I gave Sweets a pass for his early trouble after the loss of a parent and I did the same for Frank Williams under similar circumstances. But some people are too immature, or have their head too far up their butt, to grasp hardship -- and sadly, you evidence yourself repeatedly as one of them.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Max Payne</b>!
> Actually I'll agree with Rashidi and opt to take Wally over TT anyday of the week...Wally is actually a PROVEN scorer with great shooting and actually TRIES to play D and hustle, two things that are nonexistent in the world of a certain Tim Thomas...we need to get him out of NY ASAP. I love my hometown and I love a hard-working, hustling Knicks team, not one with garbage like TT.


That is a different topic altogether. I'm also on record in other threads supporting a TT trade for Wally or Artest (even now with the suspension).

I happened to bring Wally up here, not Rashidi. I could explain why I brought him up, it's based on past conversations with Alpha about effort, but it's too convoluted, and who really cares.

But I digress...

But for those of you who are relatively new here, and don't know how to read between the lines, Rashidi's posts always have one overriding theme:

Layden = Good
Isiah = Bad

You might as well know.


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## J19 (Nov 16, 2004)

Isiah and Layden are both bad in my opinion trading Lampe is a huge mistake, and those 3 draft picks could of led the Knicks to a positive future, (with drafting Ariza, a center and a Point guard)


Letting the salary caps run out, being patience as fans


Look at the cap guys, we're going to have to start this rebuilding process sooner or later

Isiah only caring about putting excitement on the court doesn't really make me feel confident about the future of this team.


I love Marbury no doubt, but really was it really needed for to give up Lampe? Suns would of made that deal without Lampe. The kid is a 7 foot 270 pound rebounding SF/PF/C with a consistant jumpshot and all around skills


Isiah really has this ego where he MUST take out everything Layden has brought to this team



BTW the Knicks would of been an 8th seed team atleast with this line up

Frank Williams/Eisley
Houston/Anderson
Keith Van Horn
Kurt Thomas/Micheal Sweetney
McDyess/Mutumbo/Lampe/


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## The True Essence (May 26, 2003)

you might as well take houston and mcdyess out of that lineup due to injuries.

When mcdyess went to phoenix and got healthy, he said it was night and day with the doctors. with us, he played like a bum, and it woulda stayed that way. we've had problems with the doctors for too long. Ewing, Camby both publicly crticized the team doctors too.

So
Frank Williams
Shandon ANderson
Van Horn
Kurt
Mutombo

would be a 25 win team. i dont even know if you could say we had mutombo either. Don Chaney never played him. Never played Sweetney either. Never played Lampe either. How can you develop players if they dont play? And Williams never got any burn until isiah thomas came in and told Chaney to start him.

i didnt believe in isiah either, but recently, i feel that we are headed in the right direction. he is rebuilding on the fly. We got young guys in ariza, sweetney and Jamal to build on. we got two HUGE expiring contracts next seasonthat could end up as a valuable trading assets or we could just let them expire. we traded conditional draft picks, so we still have this years. its basicallly our choice when they can get our picks.

with layden we never had young talent. he traded number one draft picks for OTHELLA HARRINGTON! not just him, but for other scrubs as well. sweetney was the first first rounder he didnt trade in his entire tenure as knicks GM. and mainly because you cant trade first rounders in consecutive years.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

J,The Knicks were screwed cap wise the day they signed h20 to the monster contract.Signing Shandone and Eisly only cemented it.

So it doesnt matter if we are one dollar over the cap or 50 million.As I have said before the only thing that matters is DURATION of contract,not amount,when you are in cap hell.

That is why it is meaningless that we took on Pennys monster contract to accomodate the marbury trade.It had no effect on our cap situation,but it made a major impact for the Suns as they were not so far over the cap..

TT,H2o,Naz,Shandone and all the other huge contracts come off in 2 years...The only contract that Zeke took on that was a bit longer in duration was Junkyard..And of course KT's contract was a bit suprising,but he is worth the money

Crawford,in Zekes eye was worth the commitment,and along with marbury,sweetney and hopefully Ariza we have a decent core.

Regarding Lampe,he doesnt even play and in 2 years when we have cap space he will be a free agent

How can you say the Knicks would have been an 8th seed with that squad when they werent even playing .400 ball????Are you serious?

Mcdyss was terrible last year coming off the injury,and H2o was out for 37 games,and Sweetny was on IR under layden...

I think you are a bit confused


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> I love Marbury no doubt, but really was it really needed for to give up Lampe? Suns would of made that deal without Lampe.


got proof?



> Isiah really has this ego where he MUST take out everything Layden has brought to this team


He kept KT and Sweetney, two of the better choices to keep. He traded the waste, or that which was needed to obtain talent (mostly expiring contracts).





> BTW the Knicks would of been an 8th seed team atleast with this line up
> 
> Frank Williams/Eisley
> Houston/Anderson
> ...


I have respect for Lampe, I do, but that's an 8th seed with which I'd rather MISS the playoffs and play the lottery. I do think that Marbury, Crawford, Sweetney, Ariza is a better future than F-Will, Lampe, Sweetney and most any other 2nd round pick.

My point is... I'd have been happy to rebuild too - it was my preference - but not under Layden. Layden had to go, and if the cost of dumping him was taking on Isiah and Marbury, I consider it a good expense.


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PennyHardaway</b>!
> with layden we never had young talent. he traded number one draft picks for OTHELLA HARRINGTON! not just him, but for other scrubs as well. sweetney was the first first rounder he didnt trade in his entire tenure as knicks GM. and mainly because you cant trade first rounders in consecutive years.


Four first round picks in four years. One each for Harrington, Mark Jackson, retiring/injured Luc Longley, and the #7 plus Camby for the injured McDyess.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Do you guys realize..?*

That you(Truth) and Oak are still defending IT over Layden. There is no need. IT is vastly superior as a GM. He has rebuilt the team in less than one year and we are only a legitimate very good SF and a back up big guy from contending. All other pieces are there. If they play with desire every night they will be tough to beat. I don't agree with everything he has done (or tried to do..the Rose for Thomas proposal was a real lemon), but he has done very well. If he gets Curry withouot giving up Sweetney and manages to somehow get Artest or Wally, he has made us bigger, better, younger, and much more athletic. Kudos, Mr. Thomas.

Now on to more important issues...just kidding.

Hey Oak, where did you hear his wife and mother were also dying? The post has a story today and it was his sister and cousin..in August. Said his wife was struggling sometimes (I got the impression it was emotional). His sister died from a stroke, so his wife and mother are not dying from the same thing...as some poster wrote. I am not trying to diminish his pain as it is different for everyone, but life goes on. I know, I have suffered my own losses. It is time for him to get on with it again. I am not only drawing my conclusions from this year...I have watched him since his days at Villanova. He has not evolved his game at all. I acknowledge his stats but I am not convinced that post season stats are a true indicator of post-season value. So much is predicated by match-ups and since the teams we are talking about have primarily been of the one and done type, there hasn't been a real history. I will stick to the season stats and try to make adjustments as I watch the players in the playoffs. The Knicks are a SF bomber away from being a menace to defend. TT can shoot, true, but he is not a real difficult guy to defend out there. He does not move without the ball, nor does he use screens. These are the things that I like about Wally. Artest is a different story but he a better all around offensive player than TT and all world defender. Marion would be a great choice for different reasons, but is probably ungettable.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Alfa,the real question is would you trade sweets for curry and would you then be prepared to offer the guy dam close to a max contract,which is what he wants

he did have 21 points in like 15 minutes last night..along with 6 fouls


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## J19 (Nov 16, 2004)

So I guess wait another 10 years till this team rebuilds and try to win a championship this decade?


Layden drafted Vranes Lampe and Sweetney that was a great draft day for Layden

Van Horn for Thomas? That was an awful trade it was so lopsided I've lost respect and confidence in Isiah

Sigining Vin Baker over Demarr Johnson, nice move

Mcdyess is doing well and has been healthy


Lampe is better than sweetney, along with the 3 other draft picks Knicks would of have alot of prospects to look on the future along with Mike Sweetney (Layden drafted him)


You guys act like Layden is a terrible at the drafting hes the same guy who drafted ak47 am I wrong? bad moves were Camby and Nene for Mcdyess and Drafting Weis over Artest

Giving guys like Houston anderson eisley all these big contracts isnt 100% layden's fault, theres other guys in the front office who help make these descions its not like Layden has all power of everything

Beside blaming Layden, how about the whole Knicks front office as a whole not realizing to rebuild this team ever since Ewing left and look on the future, instead of worrying if the Garden will be a full house.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

> So I guess wait another 10 years till this team rebuilds and try to win a championship this decade?


cap room clears up in 2 years or less...



> Van Horn for Thomas? That was an awful trade it was so lopsided I've lost respect and confidence in Isiah


it was NOT KVH for TT...It was KVH and Doleac for Naz and TT..Thats like saying we traded Lampe and picks for Penny....



> Sigining Vin Baker over Demarr Johnson


Where was Demmar going to play??Ahead of TT?Ahead of Ariza?Ahead of Penny?? He had his chance in preseason and did not play well at all..And i really like DJ



> Lampe is better than sweetney


Based on what..He hasnt gotten off the bench in Phoenix




> You guys act like Layden is a terrible at the drafting hes the same guy who drafted ak47 am I wrong


I am pretty sure you are wrong..layden came over in 99 the same year AK was drafted.laydens name has never been associated with AK47...

Why are we still talking about layden???His record speaks for itself and to have the highest payroll in the league and not make the playoffs should be enough proof for you...

I can not understand why people defend a guy who did not ake us younger,certainly not better and continue to knock Zeke..

BTW,you sound alot like Rashidi


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

J19, the rebuild argument is as good as any, and one I've also made many times, particularly elsewhere. But for every success, like Denver, there is a Chicago. And for failures like the Knicks, there is Indiana and Detroit, who rebuilt on the fly.

There is no singular way to win, if there were EVERYONE would do it. Just gotta hope management finds a way to do it successfully this way, because the path has already been chosen.


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Wow...you have issues*

Vranes a great pick? He was a throwaway. Sweetney was a solid pick but I doubt there were many GMs that would have blown that pick. McDyess? Please...the season is young. Hilario and Camby would be looking ppretty good in Knick uni's about now, wouldn't they? As Truth and Oak have reminded us many times. The KVH trade was about Nazr...not TT. He considered them a wash and since Nazr LOOKS as though he turned the corner, IT made the right move. Lampe is better than Sweetney? Funny, I don't hear about teams demanding Lampe in any trade scenarios. Sweets, however is in demand. Layden didn't draft Weis. Dermar? Guy is a never was and likely a never will be. !0 years? What the hell are you talking about?


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Alfa,is it just me,or does j19 have a very similar style to rashidi??

HMMMMMMM.......


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## J19 (Nov 16, 2004)

ahh I see its now about Nzar since TT is shelling, uhm sounds like all the guys who said Tim Thomas is better than KVH are really back stepping right now and using Nzar and agruement


guys Doleac wasn't bad at all he was a decent bench player, NZAR is just better than him


but the KVH and Tim Thomas comparison isnt even close


Nah its not like saying its a trade for Lampe and picks for Penny because Nzar isnt Marbury don't make a comparison like that


Demarr is a shooting guard who usually get 14 - 17 points off the bench when we played him for 20 minutes at most


I'm not the biggest fan of Isiah, but I'm trying to give him a chance and he has really made some moves not for the future of the Knicks, but his ego


The way he handle Don Chaney Lampe Vranes McDysess was very unprofessional and really had no close for those group of professionals at all.


Ariza is a good pick but what will he be? a Darius Miles? or a poor mans Kobe with a dry jumpshot? lets hope for option 2




Chicago sucks man, when you trade Elton brand and Ron Artest away don't even include them in this agruement Chicago's front office is one of the worst in the NBA

Alpha, not really bro, Vranes is a much polished player than his rookie year, he's good enough for a back up center, he's no starter but the man is a blocking machine


Mcdyess please? have you watched McDyess lately? because you have really limited patience as a fan doesnt mean you have to say please, McDyess could of helped this team at the center position he's a GOOD player, he's not the same, he can't jump as high as before, but hes good


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## J19 (Nov 16, 2004)

is it just me or you guys are completely isiah washed mentally and all share the opinions so you include me with Rashidi cause we share a different view of Isiah thomas?


No doubt Layden sucks but jesus christ anyone would look good next to Layden, stop making Isiah look like a top 10 GM in the NBA, he's no more than top 20


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

*Re: Do you guys realize..?*



> Hey Oak, where did you hear his wife and mother were also dying? The post has a story today and it was his sister and cousin..in August. Said his wife was struggling sometimes (I got the impression it was emotional). His sister died from a stroke, so his wife and mother are not dying from the same thing...as some poster wrote


Alpha, I was just repeating what I remembered hearing on one of the game broadcasts. It was during a game where TT thought he'd not be able to attend because he had a family matter, which turned out to be attending to his late sisters children. But he did in fact play. Breen explained the mater by saying something to the effect of "what fans don't realize is that Tim's sister died in the offseason and his wife and mother have the same serious illness". Or at least that is as I remembered it.

However, I saw the Post article, and I would trust that one now. I'm just going off what I hear.

But it really doesn't change much. Instead of his sister, wife, mother, it's sister, cousin, mother. Still a serious problem.

As for the rest of the TT discussion, I have no more to add. I'm cool with your views, and mine are not drastically different. I'm just combating some of the venom I see elsewhere, and unfortunately some of my response to you is misdirected. My apologies.


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## knicksfan (Jan 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>son of oakley</b>!
> 
> 
> Huh???
> ...



since you seem to know this and I ADMITEDLY DO NOT, what illness is it that you talk about thomas's sister dying and his mother suffering from?


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Knicksfan, I answered that as best I could one post before yours. There has been little info given. I only reported what I heard from Breen, and the more recent article in the post, which contradicted that somewhat.

Seems the sister died of a stroke, the cousin from a motorcycle accident, and the mom just had an operation, but it didn't say what for.

A heck, here's the article:

http://nypost.com/sports/knicks/32207.htm

Snippets:

*Within a span of three days in August, his sister, Amanda, died of a stroke, and his cousin perished in a motorcycle accident.

His responsibilities now include taking care of his young nephew and niece. To boot, Thomas' mother underwent surgery earlier this week.*

Of the boos, Thomas said, "It's not tough at all compared to what I've been going through.

"I thought everything happening, coming in, being able to play basketball, I thought I'd be able not to harp or think about what's going on. But it's been very difficult. Not to use that as an excuse, but it's been difficult. I'm going to try to do my best."

Thomas, before facing Vince Carter last night, spoke with great emotion, showing none of the bravado from last playoff spring when he was ready to fight Kenyon Martin. He said his wife also has been "up and down" because of the tragedies and new responsibilities.

"It's one of those things, I've never been through it," Thomas said. "I never thought anything like this could happen. I'm trying not to show too much emotion. But holding it in is kind of a bad thing."


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

I really hope the fans show a bit more compassion after reading this..And i am not talking about Rashidi,I am talking about the fans at the garden...

TT is the last guy in the world who can afford to be distracted....

Give the guy a pass.....


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## alphadog (Jan 2, 2004)

*Oak..*

Never any need to apologize to me. You are thoughtful with your posts and never disrepectful. If we happen to disagree (mostly we don't)..so what? Keep bringin' it. Some you will dunk, and some I'll swat. Truth on the other hand...well, I just want to swat (flagrant 2) )


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## son of oakley (Dec 24, 2003)

Here's more on TT and those health issues (it came from a link hat required registration, I think a NJ paper):

"It's all good," the Paterson Catholic product and Knicks small forward said of his first such holiday home after being traded back to the area where he was raised. That's despite the loss of a sister and cousin during the summer, then crises involving those he calls "my two first ladies": his mother's surgery on Tuesday and an ongoing illness with which his wife is dealing. 

So we see his sister and cousin died, and he has ongoing "crises" with his mother and wife. Plus taking on his sister's kids. The more we know the worse it gets.

At this point I think Houston's return will be a blessing. Give Allan, Penny and Ariza each about 15 mins and maybe let TT recover slowly on the IR. Perhaps asking him to play thru all this is simply unrealistic. Or just reduce him to a 12-15 mpg role and ask him to concentrate on rebounding and defense and see if he can improve those aspects of his game. But it's not like they're any easier when your head's not in it.


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## truth (Jul 16, 2002)

Oak,i said from day one,it was impossible for him to have gotten this bad ,this quickly..When did all this happen??

Was it after the Utah pre season game when he dominated AK47???


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