# Gooden/AV vs. Boozer



## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

It's awful I know but Boozer's been playing great:
Gooden:
<table class="playerStatTable careerAvg" border="1" bordercolor="#cccccc" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr class="title"><td class="year">Year</td> <td class="team">Team</td> <td>G</td> <td>GS</td> <td>MPG</td> <td>FG%</td> <td>3p%</td> <td>FT%</td> <td>OFF</td> <td>DEF</td> <td>RPG</td> <td>APG</td> <td>SPG</td> <td>BPG</td> <td>TO</td> <td>PF</td> <td>PPG</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="yr">06-07</td> <td class="tm">CLE</td> <td>14</td> <td>14</td> <td>26.8</td> <td>.479</td> <td>.333</td> <td>.721</td> <td>3.1</td> <td>6.6</td> <td>9.6</td> <td>0.8</td> <td>0.5</td> <td>0.5</td> <td>1.50</td> <td>3.40</td> <td>12.1</td></tr></tbody></table>AV:
<table class="playerStatTable careerAvg" border="1" bordercolor="#cccccc" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr class="title"><td class="year">Year</td> <td class="team">Team</td> <td>G</td> <td>GS</td> <td>MPG</td> <td>FG%</td> <td>3p%</td> <td>FT%</td> <td>OFF</td> <td>DEF</td> <td>RPG</td> <td>APG</td> <td>SPG</td> <td>BPG</td> <td>TO</td> <td>PF</td> <td>PPG</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="yr">06-07</td> <td class="tm">CLE</td> <td>14</td> <td>0</td> <td>21.4</td> <td>.590</td> <td>.000</td> <td>.595</td> <td>1.6</td> <td>3.9</td> <td>5.4</td> <td>0.6</td> <td>0.6</td> <td>0.6</td> <td>0.79</td> <td>3.60</td> <td>6.9</td></tr></tbody></table>
Combined AV/Gooden:
<table class="playerStatTable careerAvg" border="1" bordercolor="#cccccc" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr class="title"><td class="year">Year</td> <td class="team">Team</td> <td>G</td> <td>GS</td> <td>MPG</td> <td>FG%</td> <td>3p%</td> <td>FT%</td> <td>OFF</td> <td>DEF</td> <td>RPG</td> <td>APG</td> <td>SPG</td> <td>BPG</td> <td>TO</td> <td>PF</td> <td>PPG</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="yr">06-07</td> <td class="tm">CLE</td> <td>14</td> <td>14</td> <td>48.2</td> <td>.</td> <td>
</td> <td>.</td> <td>4.7</td> <td>10.5</td> <td>15</td> <td>1.4</td> <td>1.1</td> <td>1.1</td> <td>2.29</td> <td>7</td> <td>18</td></tr></tbody></table>
Boozer:
<table class="playerStatTable careerAvg" border="1" bordercolor="#cccccc" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr class="title"><td class="year">Year</td> <td class="team">Team</td> <td>G</td> <td>GS</td> <td>MPG</td> <td>FG%</td> <td>3p%</td> <td>FT%</td> <td>OFF</td> <td>DEF</td> <td>RPG</td> <td>APG</td> <td>SPG</td> <td>BPG</td> <td>TO</td> <td>PF</td> <td>PPG</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="yr">06-07</td> <td class="tm">UTA</td> <td>14</td> <td>14</td> <td>35.2</td> <td>.577</td> <td>.000</td> <td>.756</td> <td>3.2</td> <td>9.5</td> <td>12.7</td> <td>3.3</td> <td>0.6</td> <td>0.4</td> <td>2.14</td> <td>3.00</td> <td>21.9</td></tr></tbody></table>


Boozer scoring more per minutes but we're getting essentially the same rebounding


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

I haven't watched Boozer play in a while. But with the numbers he's putting up, I better get around to checking Carlos out.


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## quench23 (Mar 26, 2006)

If we went to boozer as much as utah goes to boozer, we'd have drew avaraging those type of numbers too... how many times does drew have a 10 point 5 rebound quarter then gets like 3 points in the next 3 Qs?

I dont understand why we keep feeding Z on the block, when we can be feeding drew whos a better offensive player,

IMO, run pick and pops with Z, then again Z has never set a good pick in his life.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

^The thing about Loozer is that he puts up his #'s consistently. Night in, night out you know he will produce (when healthy).

Gooden can drop 22/15 one night and 3/6 the next. His averages look good but that inconsistency is part of the problem with this team. AV plays bigger than his #'s, he's an intangibles guy. 

I think we came out ahead when you factor in the $$ Loozer is getting paid.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Thing about Loozer is he also makes almost as much money as Gooden, Verejao AND Marshall combined.
And he was worse than Drew on his defense.

But in the end. It's not our fault he's not here. He took the money and ran. And if we had kept him, we wouldn't have Andy and Drew, and Boozer would have been out the last year and a half.

Who knows if he can stay healthy even...


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## Larry Hughes for Retirement (Jul 5, 2004)

Id rather have our duo. We would be in real serious debt if we had Boozer/Z/Bron/Hughes (prob wouldnt have hughes)

Plus Boozer must drink the same milk as Hughes because you know their both bound to get hurt. Drew has been healthy atleast.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

That contract would been interesting: I think we might have had a shot at keeping Z and Hughes but not to grab Marshall and Jones. 

Anyone know how Boozer's contract would have affected our cap before last season?


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

quench23 said:


> * If we went to boozer as much as utah goes to boozer, we'd have drew avaraging those type of numbers too*... how many times does drew have a 10 point 5 rebound quarter then gets like 3 points in the next 3 Qs?
> 
> I dont understand why we keep feeding Z on the block, when we can be feeding drew whos a better offensive player,
> 
> IMO, run pick and pops with Z, then again Z has never set a good pick in his life.


Boozer shoots 15.3 shots a game, makes 8.9 of those.
Gooden shoots 10.3 shots a game, makes 4.9 of those

Boozer has 22 ppg because he shoots nearly 60% from the field. So I disagree with you on if gooden shot 15 a game that he would have the same numbers as boozer. 

But I think you picked up quite a player replacing Boozer. If Gooden improves a little bit more, the cavs would win a championship in a year or two. But for Lebron, the sky is the limit for him, he is still young as hell.

If you had the boozer/lebron combo right now, you would win a championship this year. That is what I think is the difference.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

meh, boozer is nice but he's an injury waiting to happen. i myself am fine with Gooden/AV...


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

I highly doubt Boozer for Gooden would guarentee us the title. Our frontcourt would go from being really good to great but still wouldn't fix our biggest holes. Now Deron Williams on the other hand hehe


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Our frontcourt isn't holding us back from anything. It's Larry Hughes being injured in conjunction with not having even a mediocre NBA point guard.

As defensively oriented as we are, to not have a person to guard penetration in the middle of the floor is a severe handicap we go against every night.

I also think that defensively Gooden and Verejao as a combo are far far far superior to Boozer. One thing that Gooden has that Boozer doesn't is explosiveness, he can get off the floor and occasionaly block a shot. And in terms of just all around team defense, Boozer was worse than either of the two player we have now there. He used to get lost on pretty much every defensive rotation, and he gave up lay-ups very easily.

Boozer is benefitting from a slightly depleated power forward crew out west as well. I remember when we took him out west, Nene and Amare used to use him as a trampoline and just run dunk competitions from the post.

No. What I liked about Boozer was his hands. He could catch anything you threw at him. His jumper. And his ability to finish at the rim. Which are all things that Drew does pretty well too, except Drew is less of a defensive liability, which is a startling thing to say because Drew isn't that great at defense.

I'll take Andy over either of them though. He's drawn what...14 charges this season in thirteen games? Those are as good as steals. He's getting us extra possessions.

And as has been pointed out, because we don't have Boozer, we have Gooden, Verejao, Yell, DJones, and Larry Hughes. That's pretty much our team right there. Boozer isn't worth that much. We had Boozer, and our record without him shows we are better off without him.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Oh and if Drew ever puts it all together, not saying he will, but if he does, WOW. When he has it going, he looks as good as anyone. He's an atheletic four, with good dribbling, shooting, and unreal rebounding skills. Watching the two of them rebound, is day and night. Drew rebounds with bad intentions. Like a Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, This ball is MINE kind of deal. It would be interesting to see what he would do with consistent minutes to work through his rough nights. But we are so loaded at that spot, that it doesn't make sense to play Drew unless he is on fire, because Andy is so much better than him at everything except scoring.

Anyone else disapointed after watching Andy play for Brazil, that the Cavs coaching staff haven't really expanded his responsibilities on offense? There's so much to his game that we don't take advantage of. I would like to see him working from the high post more in a point power forward role because of how good of a passer he is. But he so rarely gets the ball up there. Most people who only watch him occasionly don't know that he has a very good jumper out to about 20 feet, even though it looks unorthodox, and he's an exceptional ball handler. Would like to see him in more spots to use those skills. Maybe if he can develop his back to the basket game more, we can use him in the Chris Webber/Vlade Divac role that the Kings had, as far as a point-post player, for after Z retires?


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

This brings a smile to my eyes:


> And speaking of the Wolves, they knocked off the Jazz behind a monster game from A.I.’s possible new running mate, *Kevin Garnett* (31 pts, 14 rebs). KG just took *Carlos Boozer* (8 pts, 4-for-17 FGs) to school. KG viciously swatted one of Boozer’s lefty layups, and was _killing_ Booze on the other end with an array of spins, turnaround and drives. It was abuse


http://www.dimemag.com/smack.asp


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

I can deal with this. Boozer out played duncan/brand/bosh so far, but KG outplayed Boozer. Not too bad from playing against 4 all star PFs of last year.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

AK-47 said:


> I can deal with this. Boozer out played duncan/brand/bosh so far, but KG outplayed Boozer. Not too bad from playing against 4 all star PFs of last year.


 You don't get it. I hate Kobe Bryant but I leave my dislike for him on the basketball court, I have no idea what Kobe is like as a person except inuendo

Boozer on the other hand simply lied to get cash and screw a blind man. Him and his wife wanted a bigger payday and screwed the team. Every player has a right to sign a contract whereever he wants but the Cavs (including the awful Paxson) told Gund that they had no power over other teams once they let Boozer go. Boozer went to Gordon Gund to get around this ( a good man regardless if he was blind or not) and lied. I wish nothing but bad luck to Boozer in any basketball related matters.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

At the end of the day Boozer will one day look back at what Lebron accomplishes in his career and wonder what if he had stayed to become a part of that. Lebron could have made him a star. Just in the brief time they had together, Lebron got Boozer a huge pay check and an undeserved spot on Team USA.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Funny how people just disregard Boozers lack of defense. People talk about Goodens defense but it's 10 times that of Boozer. Boozer is playing well, but he is absolutely not without warts.


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

I can understand why you don't like him. But Boozer did nothing illegal. It was Cleveland that was trying to screw Boozer over. Instead of waiting another year so they could of offered him what he deserved, they try to offer him something that has nothing to do with his potential. Boozer had great potential to be a top 5 PF and the Cavs were trying to screw him over on what he really deserved. The GM of the Jazz contacted Boozer and gave him a huge offer and any body making a financial decision would of taken it.

And how do you know if Boozer even said that? Didn't they say it was an offer behind closed doors? Because I don't think they can say that to the media because of the rules. None of us know what was said behind those doors. If you have met Boozer in real life, you would know that he is a good guy. He interacts with the crowd before every home game and gives out autographs to people. He says only good things about the team, city, fans, ect.

The numbers Boozer is putting up right now, makes him worth his contract. Look at players like Nene, Camby, ect. That haven't lived up to their potential.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

The OUTLAW said:


> Funny how people just disregard Boozers lack of defense. People talk about Goodens defense but it's 10 times that of Boozer. Boozer is playing well, but he is absolutely not without warts.



Yeah I always thought his defense was a huge problem. He used to get completely dominated by scoring power forwards. Guys like Amare and Nene used to run dunk lines on him.

Forget Drew's defense. Andy's defense is incredible. He's getting what...two or three charges drawn per game? And he is a great rebounder. Really good passer. Great hands. Dives on the floor like a crazy man. He's the Nocioni of big men.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

AK-47 said:


> I can understand why you don't like him. But Boozer did nothing illegal. It was Cleveland that was trying to screw Boozer over. Instead of waiting another year so they could of offered him what he deserved, they try to offer him something that has nothing to do with his potential. Boozer had great potential to be a top 5 PF and the Cavs were trying to screw him over on what he really deserved. The GM of the Jazz contacted Boozer and gave him a huge offer and any body making a financial decision would of taken it.
> 
> And how do you know if Boozer even said that? Didn't they say it was an offer behind closed doors? Because I don't think they can say that to the media because of the rules. None of us know what was said behind those doors. If you have met Boozer in real life, you would know that he is a good guy. He interacts with the crowd before every home game and gives out autographs to people. He says only good things about the team, city, fans, ect.
> 
> The numbers Boozer is putting up right now, makes him worth his contract. Look at players like Nene, Camby, ect. That haven't lived up to their potential.


*Sorry but this is complete Boozer* *hogwash*. It's been well documented in the Cleveland media and is the reaason Boozer's agent was fired from his agency. The Cavs management including the awful John Paxson did NOT want to do it but Boozer and it looks like his wife in particular wanted a huge payraise. Off his rookie contract it looks like they weren't living within there means. This is when they went Gordon Gund and told them they would like there contract a year early because fo there financial situation. Gund against management advice went ahead and did it because he believed Boozer at his word.

You can buy all of Boozer's arguments that it was the Cavs being cheap but that is ridiculous. They knew that other teams could make an offer over theres and if they waited just a year they wouldn't have to worry about it with Bird rights but Gund believed Boozer's lies. It was under the table but it was started by Boozer by him putting out his hand. In the end this incident (along with the firing of Boozer's agent) was given as one of the major reasons for Gordon Gund selling the Cavs franchise: he became disenchanted with the NBA at that point and didn't want to deal with any more players like Boozer.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

This is the issue that I have with the Boozer situation. He knew how much he'd receive from the Cavaliers. That number was what it was. But, he and his wife actually went in and begged to be allowed to sign their extension a year earlier. I'm not positive he knew how much he could receive but it lacked integrity to ask someone to relieve you of a year long obligation and then screw them in the back by not sticking with the intent (which you were very well aware of).


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

This is a business. You can say all the stuff behind closed doors and all of that, but at the end of the day, you look at it from a business point of view. Boozer saw what he was really worth, and took more money than the Cavs could even think of offering. 

I have heard many stories of Boozer wanting to be drafted by the Jazz and was upset when he wasn't. He came to Utah and was playing when the Jazz retired Karl Malones jersey. Malone was a role model for Boozer when he was younger and said he used to watch him a lot and was a huge fan of his.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

AK-47 said:


> This is a business. You can say all the stuff behind closed doors and all of that, but at the end of the day, you look at it from a business point of view. Boozer saw what he was really worth, and took more money than the Cavs could even think of offering.
> 
> I have heard many stories of Boozer wanting to be drafted by the Jazz and was upset when he wasn't. He came to Utah and was playing when the Jazz retired Karl Malones jersey. Malone was a role model for Boozer when he was younger and said he used to watch him a lot and was a huge fan of his.


 Hmm it's a business and suddenly Karl Malone becomes important? That's an oxymoron. The other point is that the Cavs knew they didn't have Larry Bird rights on him till next year: Boozer made it all about honor and not about business

If it was just a business decision there is no way the Cavs would have let Boozer on the market (this was written about extensively in the Cleveland papers as all the management was against this). This is exactly why Cleveland hates the guy and rightfully so Boozer decided it *wasnt *just a business decision but brought in his personal honor and the like to by all accounts an honest man in Gordon Gund. Fact of the matter is no Cleveland fan has a problem with Utah or Utah fans, this all about Boozer. Enjoy you're team's success. In fact Deron Williams was one of my favorite college over the last 20 years (my dad went to school of U of I and I lived in Chicago for a long time). But the arguments for Boozer is frankly again just hogwash. Like I said I wish Utah the best unless they playing one of my teams and _they _did the right business move, but Boozer is a coward and lier. The Malone stories will quickly go away if he can scam himself to more money with some other team in second. He needed the money desperately (think about it from a business and personal standpoint the team that gave him a shot could have given him a BIGGER contract if he just waited a year and fulfilled his already existing deal).


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Clearly he is just trying to exhonerate Boozer. Frankly I could care less about the little rat, but the fact is he begged his way out of his situation which is absolutely a non honorable thing to do.


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## Benedict_Boozer (Jul 16, 2004)

Loozer ****ed over a blind man. That pretty much sums up his character.


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

I guess Boozer just didn't like the city of Cleveland, and found a way to get out.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

AK-47 said:


> I guess Boozer just didn't like the city of Cleveland, and found a way to get out.


 Oh yeah forget about the nightlife in SLC :banghead:


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> Oh yeah forget about the nightlife in SLC :banghead:


Don't forget that everyone is Mormon also and that it is full of white people that are racists. Because why just stop at one stereotype about a place.

http://www.saltlakecityutah.org/nightlife.htm
http://www.vortexslc.com/
^I believe that is where 2 of the Jazz players got into a fight with some nugget fans, or maybe it was another club, not sure.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

AK-47 said:


> Don't forget that everyone is Mormon also and that it is full of white people that are racists. Because why just stop at one stereotype about a place.
> 
> http://www.saltlakecityutah.org/nightlife.htm
> http://www.vortexslc.com/
> ^I believe that is where 2 of the Jazz players got into a fight with some nugget fans, or maybe it was another club, not sure.


 You're arguments range from business to love of Karl Malone, to someone not liking Cleveland and suddenly you come into the Cleveland forum throwing around maybe it was the City of Cleveland after the rest of Boozer's lies are exposed.

And before accusing someone of steroetyping, I've been to SLC several times. The surrounding area is quite beautiful but I'd take Cleveland and it's all its warts over SLC anyday of the week. And the nightlife in SLC does suck compared to most every major American city except maybe Jacksonville.


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## cpawfan (Jun 20, 2004)

AK-47 said:


> Boozer had great potential to be a top 5 PF and the Cavs were trying to screw him over on what he really deserved.


Of all the horse **** being tossed out in this thread about the wonders and positives of that piece of crap, this is the most hilarious statement.


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Boozer got an opportunity to play in Cleveland that most second rounders don't even get. Who's to know if he every would have even been noticed had he been drafted elsewhere. But while I agree that this is a business but even business' need to have integrity. Boozers actions lacked integrity. I wouldn't have minded him playing out his contract and signing for more somewhere else. That was his prerogative (Cleveland fans have had tons of players go to other teams for more money). However, you don't lie to do it. You shut up and play out your contract without whining about it not being enough for you to live. Boozer and his wife couldn't do that.


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

cpawfan said:


> Of all the horse **** being tossed out in this thread about the wonders and positives of that piece of crap, this is the most hilarious statement.


You can't deny that he isn't a top 5 PF of this season.

Btw, how is Kmart doing in Denver? I am so glad we got Boozer over Kmart.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

AK, you can't deny what Boozer did. It's well documented. I'd just accept that part of his character and move on. Hopefully he learned from his mistake and it ends up being one of those black stains in a young man's life that many of us want to forget about in retrospect. At least, I hope Boozer (and his wife maybe) realize the depths of that injustice. 

That all said, no one here can deny that Boozer would make this Cavs squad better. Sorry, but Gooden is not all _that_ good and while Boozer isn't that great defensively, Gooden is nothing but athletic and above average. He's still an inconsistent dope and trips over his own two feet a little too often for my liking. AV is a different story, but he's been pretty injury prone and doesn't get that many minutes. Absolutely love his game though. He just isn't nearly at Boozer's level.


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## remy23 (Aug 15, 2002)

Boozer is better individually but I'd rather have the two-headed monster any day of the week. I like the options it gives because Gooden and Varejao bring different things to the table and you can use the guy who is playing better that night and matches up better. With Boozer, he matched up poorly against certain guys and we couldn't do anything about it. Now we have options.


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

EHL said:


> AK, you can't deny what Boozer did. It's well documented. I'd just accept that part of his character and move on. Hopefully he learned from his mistake and it ends up being one of those black stains in a young man's life that many of us want to forget about in retrospect. At least, I hope Boozer (and his wife maybe) realize the depths of that injustice.


He did nothing illegal in this league. You can't convict someone when it's perfectly legal. Well documented, I agree, by the Cavs. He didn't want to play second fiddle to LeBron where he would get no credit. Instead he signed for more money to the Jazz where he would be the go to guy and make the difference. It's not a coincidence that the Jazz are all of a sudden a top team after Boozer comes back from injury.

Boozer has shown me nothing that would lead me to believe that he wasn't a good guy. I have seen his character, he is loving it here in Utah. When a player like Boozer is a franchise player, the fans cheer and go nuts for him. They don't Boo their franchise player like the fans did the LeBron on his own homecourt. 

There is no proof on what was said, and don't go posting a damn newspaper article. Because newspapers aren't 100% true, or even close to it. Anyone from Ohio could publish a newspaper article on what they think was said. The GM could lie on his *** to make Boozer look like the bad guy.

Boozers supporting cast > LeBrons supporting cast

He made the right choice.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

AK-47 said:


> He did nothing illegal in this league. You can't convict someone when it's perfectly legal. Well documented, I agree, by the Cavs. He didn't want to play second fiddle to LeBron where he would get no credit. Instead he signed for more money to the Jazz where he would be the go to guy and make the difference. It's not a coincidence that the Jazz are all of a sudden a top team after Boozer comes back from injury.
> 
> Boozer has shown me nothing that would lead me to believe that he wasn't a good guy. I have seen his character, he is loving it here in Utah. When a player like Boozer is a franchise player, the fans cheer and go nuts for him. They don't Boo their franchise player like the fans did the LeBron on his own homecourt.
> 
> ...


You are making up stuff now: LOL he didn't want to play second fiddle to Lebron? When did Boozer ever even say this. Lebron is a guy who freakin defers too much teammates in the opinion of many a Cavs fans including some on this board. I forgot I thought it was he wanted to trade SLC for Cleveland 

He was really loving it in Utah too when his owner was questioning his heart (Amazing how this isn't even mentioned anymore or I guess all those Boozer trades roaming around didn't exist ).

Look no one who frequents this forum really wants too see Utah bad or good but you're barking up the wrong tree with some weak points trying to whitewash Boozer. He's a good player but his "goodness" ends on the court.


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> You are making up stuff now: LOL he didn't want to play second fiddle to Lebron? When did Boozer ever even say this. Lebron is a guy who freakin defers too much teammates in the opinion of many a Cavs fans including some on this board. I forgot I thought it was he wanted to trade SLC for Cleveland
> 
> He was really loving it in Utah too when his owner was questioning his heart (Amazing how this isn't even mentioned anymore or I guess all those Boozer trades roaming around didn't exist ).
> 
> Look no one who frequents this forum really wants too see Utah bad or good but you're barking up the wrong tree with some weak points trying to whitewash Boozer. He's a good player but his "goodness" ends on the court.


The owner questioned his heart when he didn't realize Boozer was playing with an injury already. And you can't let the other team know what hurts on a player so they don't attack that weakness. Instead of Miller finding out about the situation from Boozer and the coaching, he opens his mouth on the radio about it. The Jazz owner does that quite often actually.

Boozer was not going to get traded, especially for the offers that all the rumors suggested. The owner talks every Thursday on the radio, he made it clear back then that Boozer was not going anywhere. Boozer called the owner several times asking if it was a sure thing that he would stay playing in Utah because he likes it in Utah. And Miller said, you can count on it.

You say he is not a good player off the court, I simply don't see any reason why he is not a good person off the court. We have different opinions about Boozer, one is good, the other is evil. :biggrin:


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

You have a George Bush view of the world: whatever is in my (Utah) inner circle is ok everything coming from the outside is not correct. For example, god forbid it comes from a newspaper of all things! These things were reported from reporters like Brian Windhorst and Terry Pluto who if you read anything from them don't shy away from publishing facts even when it is not in a favorable Cavs light


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> You have a George Bush view of the world: whatever is in my (Utah) inner circle is ok everything coming from the outside is not correct. For example, god forbid it comes from a newspaper of all things! These things were reported from reporters like Brian Windhorst and Terry Pluto who if you read anything from them don't shy away from publishing facts even when it is not in a favorable Cavs light


The media does not always tell the truth. If you go through life believing everything the media tells you to, then you will be a "zombie".

A cavs fan that is a reporter will be upset with Boozer leaving and be upset about it. So he will have a biased opinion on the subject.

The Utah reporters are actually against the Jazz here. I am not sure if they even watch basketball, but criticize every little detail. A reporter is going to have a biased thought no matter how hard he tries to be neutral.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

AK-47 said:


> The media does not always tell the truth. If you go through life believing everything the media tells you to, then you will be a "zombie".
> 
> A cavs fan that is a reporter will be upset with Boozer leaving and be upset about it. So he will have a biased opinion on the subject.
> 
> The Utah reporters are actually against the Jazz here. I am not sure if they even watch basketball, but criticize every little detail. A reporter is going to have a biased thought no matter how hard he tries to be neutral.


So again you automatically assume that a contraring viewpoint from the one you want to hold is biased: again this our about as honest as reporters as you'll find in the media.

Windhorst and Pluto have been around for years and are highly respected in both the Cleveland area and nationally (Windhorst is beginning to get syndicated by ESPN at times). They've written critical articles on Lebron James as well as well as articles praising guys like Ricky Davis for turning around there careers.

In the end if you don't believe all that data: there are two points which stands out - one Boozer's agent was fired after recieving a huge contract from his agency. That agency lost millions in representaion so that it would maintain it's reputation. Second Gund, sold the Cavs a franschise he's owned for two decades because he didn't want to deal with players like Boozer. Both those actions speak volumes on the moral failings of Boozer in this situation. He might be a candy striper the rest of his life but he was clearly in the wrong morally with the way he lied.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

Boozer makes Anderson look like Tim Duncan on defense. Such an upgrade on that side of the ball.


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> Boozer makes Anderson look like Tim Duncan on defense. Such an upgrade on that side of the ball.


Boozers defense is underrated like hell right now in the league. He has picked up his defense this year and is playing pretty good defense. He held brand to 20 points, 4 rebounds tonight. Brand also had 6 Turnovers on 3 of Boozers steals from him.


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> So again you automatically assume that a contraring viewpoint from the one you want to hold is biased: again this our about as honest as reporters as you'll find in the media.
> 
> Windhorst and Pluto have been around for years and are highly respected in both the Cleveland area and nationally (Windhorst is beginning to get syndicated by ESPN at times). They've written critical articles on Lebron James as well as well as articles praising guys like Ricky Davis for turning around there careers.
> 
> In the end if you don't believe all that data: there are two points which stands out - one Boozer's agent was fired after recieving a huge contract from his agency. That agency lost millions in representaion so that it would maintain it's reputation. Second Gund, sold the Cavs a franschise he's owned for two decades because he didn't want to deal with players like Boozer. Both those actions speak volumes on the moral failings of Boozer in this situation. He might be a candy striper the rest of his life but he was clearly in the wrong morally with the way he lied.


You know what, I do the same as what Boozer did. More money on a better team. Rather he was wrong or right in what he did, he made the right decision. 

Boozer is thriving in Utah. He is the go to guy on the best team in the league (record wise), and has been an MVP candidate for the first quarter of the season.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

AK-47 said:


> You know what, I do the same as what Boozer did. More money on a better team. Rather he was wrong or right in what he did, he made the right decision.
> 
> Boozer is thriving in Utah. He is the go to guy on the best team in the league (record wise), and has been an MVP candidate for the first quarter of the season.


 So you would go to an owner, tell him you're in bad financial shape, tell him you'll sign for a contract even though the team will tell you that they can pay you more if you wait a year, and then promise to sign even knowing full well that a team will offer you more money? That's absolute hogwash. *IF* Boozer had made the decision *AFTER* fulfilling his contract (thus not lying to get of a deal), every post in here says they wouldn't have a problem with it including me. I don't blame a player for going for a better deal but this is where it falls apart

Tthe Cavs could have payed him more if he just waited a year but he needed the money quickly because of his wife so he backstabbed his way out. Plus you're logic is weak as he was already thriving in Cleveland with the best young player in the game beside him. He lied get over it. No matter how well he plays he'll be a player with a cloud over his head and rightfully so no matter how big in denial you're in about his past


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> * So you would go to an owner, tell him you're in bad financial shape, tell him you'll sign for a contract even though the team will tell you that they can pay you more if you wait a year, and then promise to sign even knowing full well that a team will offer you more money?* That's absolute hogwash. *IF* Boozer had made the decision *AFTER* fulfilling his contract (thus not lying to get of a deal), every post in here says they wouldn't have a problem with it including me. I don't blame a player for going for a better deal but this is where it falls apart
> 
> Tthe Cavs could have payed him more if he just waited a year but he needed the money quickly because of his wife so he backstabbed his way out. Plus you're logic is weak as he was already thriving in Cleveland with the best young player in the game beside him. He lied get over it. No matter how well he plays he'll be a player with a cloud over his head and rightfully so no matter how big in denial you're in about his past


Yes, if I wanted out of a city/place I would do that. A business is about looking out for you and only you, no one cares about the little people you step on or lie to.

And how would I know if he lied or not? I never heard the conversation. So how can I admit something like that? And besides, it has been 3 years since it happened. Forgive and forget, this isn't high school drama class.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

AK-47 said:


> Yes, if I wanted out of a city/place I would do that. A business is about looking out for you and only you, no one cares about the little people you step on or lie to.
> 
> And how would I know if he lied or not? I never heard the conversation. So how can I admit something like that? And besides, it has been 3 years since it happened. Forgive and forget, this isn't high school drama class.


So we are now at forgive or forget? LOL: Boozer wanted money: he didn't care about city, playing for Malone's team, not liking Cleveland, not liking Lebron or any of the stuff you've made up to defend him.

He did wrong so much so that his own represantation fired him. If some Cavs fans want to forgive or forget so be it. I'm not one of them but the point is made there: Boozer's action set up this in the first place by his lieing. If it was purely about honest business (fulfilling his contract and then signing for more money elsewhere w/o lying to get out his deal) then there would be nothing for him to be forgiven for. That's not what happened


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> *So we are now at forgive or forget? LOL: Boozer wanted money: he didn't care about city, playing for Malone's team, not liking Cleveland, not liking Lebron or any of the stuff you've made up to defend him.*
> 
> He did wrong so much so that his own represantation fired him. If some Cavs fans want to forgive or forget so be it. I'm not one of them but the point is made there: Boozer's action set up this in the first place by his lieing. If it was purely about honest business (fulfilling his contract and then signing for more money elsewhere w/o lying to get out his deal) then there would be nothing for him to be forgiven for. That's not what happened


I said it was a possibility. I never said it was a fact.

All I can say, is it is going to be a crazy game when the Jazz visit the Cavs.


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

AK-47 said:


> I said it was a possibility. I never said it was a fact.
> 
> All I can say, is it is going to be a crazy game when the Jazz visit the Cavs.


If Boozer doesn't pick up a hangnail.


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

futuristxen said:


> If Boozer doesn't pick up a hangnail.


right, because he is afraid to play the Cavs.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

AK-47 said:


> I said it was a possibility. I never said it was a fact.


Possibilties (other then I suppose the laughable Malone assertion) not supported by any statements from Boozer, his agent, or as far as I know his wife. Yet statements supported by multiple journalists, and multiple sources are discredited. Talk about inuendo


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

AK-47 said:


> right, because he is afraid to play the Cavs.


he has been ever since he left.


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## AK-47 (Jul 7, 2005)

Pioneer10 said:


> Possibilties (other then I suppose the laughable Malone assertion) not supported by any statements from Boozer, his agent, or as far as I know his wife. Yet statements supported by multiple journalists, and multiple sources are discredited. Talk about inuendo


I don't believe anything the media says. Didn't you know that thousands of articles by hundred of journalists were talking about Boozer last year and the year before and how he was being shopped and was going to be traded. It was actually funny when the Jazz Owner on the radio said that wasn't true, the GM said it wasn't true, and Boozer said he was happy to be in Utah, and yet the media still made trade talks for players such as Al Jefferson. And journalists from the home town that they are reporting on are the worst, nothing is funnier than a biased journalist or play by play announcer on TV.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

AK-47 said:


> I don't believe anything the media says. Didn't you know that thousands of articles by hundred of journalists were talking about Boozer last year and the year before and how he was being shopped and was going to be traded. It was actually funny when the Jazz Owner on the radio said that wasn't true, the GM said it wasn't true, and Boozer said he was happy to be in Utah, and yet the media still made trade talks for players such as Al Jefferson. And journalists from the home town that they are reporting on are the worst, nothing is funnier than a biased journalist or play by play announcer on TV.


You clearly missed the point: to defend a guy on you're team just because he's on you're team you're making assertions about possibilites that have NO basis in anything that has been written but are ready to dismiss anything that is supported by writing. By lumping every journalist as one you're creating a logical fallacy - there is no way to argue. A person comes out with fact it becomes automatically dismissed as it came from a journalist because he is a journalist and not based on the credibility of that writer (i.e. the New York Post is the same as the New York Times)


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## The OUTLAW (Jun 13, 2002)

Pioneer10 said:


> You are making up stuff now: LOL he didn't want to play second fiddle to Lebron? When did Boozer ever even say this. Lebron is a guy who freakin defers too much teammates in the opinion of many a Cavs fans including some on this board. I forgot I thought it was he wanted to trade SLC for Cleveland
> 
> He was really loving it in Utah too when his owner was questioning his heart (Amazing how this isn't even mentioned anymore or I guess all those Boozer trades roaming around didn't exist ).
> 
> Look no one who frequents this forum really wants too see Utah bad or good but you're barking up the wrong tree with some weak points trying to whitewash Boozer. He's a good player but his "goodness" ends on the court.


I was about to say. Boozer was criticized more by Utah fans than he ever was as a Cavalier. And, way more than the instance when the fans booed the Cavs (not LeBron, dang you guys just either didn't watch that game or just want to make stuff up).


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