# Is Yao better than J Will?



## lanqiu (Dec 8, 2002)

Personally, I think Houston got a upper hand. I wish the bulls taded J Will (#2 Pick) plus Curry for Yao (#1 pick). Then the bulls will have Crawford as point guard instead of Jay, which is not that bad, but with Yao as center, much better than the current pathetic Curry.


----------



## HAWK23 (Jul 1, 2002)

i'll be short with this and say Curry and the #2 pick for JUST Ming would be overpaying....


----------



## Killuminati (Jul 30, 2002)

Nah, JWill is doing alright. PG is the hardest position to learn in the NBA especially when you run a very complicated offense like the triangle. I have no doubt that Yao will most likely be a great NBA center but we needed a PG who had skills and who will become a leader in the future. I dont see Craw being that type of guy.


----------



## Bulls4Life (Nov 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lanqiu</b>!
> Personally, I think Houston got a upper hand. I wish the bulls taded J Will (#2 Pick) plus Curry for Yao (#1 pick). Then the bulls will have Crawford as point guard instead of Jay, which is not that bad, but with Yao as center, much better than the current pathetic Curry.


at first people said yao was a bust (remember charles barkley?) now their saying he's going to be the greatest ever!

he's not a bull so he could shoot fireworks out of *** and i wouldn't care!

i'll just say that what i have seen of jay and eddy , i think the bulls fans will be very happy with these two for years to come!
(that's if we get a coach that nows how to use them!)

right now they are not being allowed to show their stuff with freedom the way yao, dujuan wagner, amare stoudamire and MOST other rookies have.

jwill's triple double against jason kidd was no fluke! it was the only time this year he was given freedom to create.

eddy curry has been dominant at times this year (including friday night's game against Tor), but always gets put on a short leash or may be suffering from jalen's jealousy!

bottom line, on almost any other team we would be saying how krause blew it when he passed on these two!


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Killuminati</b>!
> Nah, JWill is doing alright. PG is the hardest position to learn in the NBA especially when you run a very complicated offense like the triangle. I have no doubt that Yao will most likely be a great NBA center but we needed a PG who had skills and who will become a leader in the future. I dont see Craw being that type of guy.


pg may be the hardest to learn but generally guards are expected to develop faster than center especialy when the have aquired 3 years of the experience williams was suppose to have attained at duke 

and i disagree we need a leader(and we do i dont think its williams) supposedly chandler and curry are going to be our future and almost uniformly most teams would like to have their best player be their leader and since in the nba he has not yet shown that he is likely to be that guy to be the team leader (chandler seems to be way out in front in that category of all of the younger bulls players)

and since TC is still a better bet to be a dominant player (not just a really good one like williams)I think it would be better hitch the future team leader mantle on him when rose is no longer in that role


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

Yao will go down as having had a greater impact on the game. After seeing him play a bunch of times, i am starting to think he can be the greatest center ever (that's right!) if he stays healthy enough. When a guy's that big, alot of stress is put on his feet and legs, so we'll just have to wait and see with that. That being said, I don't think he'll be all that much better than Jay. From what I've seen of Jay, I really think he's gonna be somehting special. He has unbelieveable quickness and handles (did you see him blowing past Wagner down the stretch last night?) Think of Shaq vs. Isaiah Thomas.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Louie,

Your post reminds me of how the NBA years ago had these one-on-one contests for television. I remember some quick guard had to play against Jabbar and destroyed him. It wasn't even close.


----------



## Electric Slim (Jul 31, 2002)

Yao is unstoppable now, and is only going to get MUCH better!

Jay Williams is going to be great though, so don't fret.


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

jay will be to steve nash what yao will be to a 7'5 tim duncan, who would you have? 

even if jay ends up as the best point guard in the league he will never be the defensive stopper that baron davis, jason kidd and GP are, but lets say he did. lets say he is on the ALL NBA Defensive team one day, would you STILL take him(or baron davis, payton or kidd) over a 7'5 Tim Duncan? let alone a 6'11 Tim Duncan?


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Louie: 

Your on the right tract- this is already a dead issue. I am ready to say that the people who are detractors against Yao are either Xenophobes or just plain misinformed.

1) He is already the best passer from the center position I have ever seen. This is not hyperbole and I have watched a lot of basketball.

2) A defensive force- I just don't see how scouts were nocking his D. A 7'5 center with good mobility is not going to be a liability, pure and simple. Every time he steps on the court he changes the contures of the game.

3) Polished offensively- he has beutiful moves, form, and selections.

Hawk 23- Do you have the NBA ticket? Curry and the #2 would not be overpaying. Probably about equal considering the risk that Yao's body wont hold up. There really is no precedence for his body type. Right now the only thing keeping Yao from being the best center in the game is a more experience and a little conditioning, both of which he will have by playoff time next season (if not this season).


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Yao is unstoppable now, and is only going to get MUCH better!


I think the word "unstoppable" gets thrown around alot- noone is unstoppable. The closest thing to it in the league today is Shaq, and he was within a Stojakovic airball of losing in the semi's last year. Granted, he wasn't exactly at full strength, but really- even if he was at full strength and could show ft's like Yao, would you really take his Lakers over Mj's Bulls? I wouldn't. If the hype is true, I'm more worried about LeBron than Yao. Yao can be guarded and limited by the right defender.

That being said, I do believe that Yao could be the greatest center ever. How long he remains at that level has yet to be seen- the only player who was even close to Yao's height and build was Georghe Murheason, and while he was successful for a while, his career was severely limited by injuries.


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> I think the word "unstoppable" gets thrown around alot- noone is unstoppable. The closest thing to it in the league today is Shaq, and he was within a Stojakovic airball of losing in the semi's last year. Granted, he wasn't exactly at full strength, but really- even if he was at full strength and could show ft's like Yao, would you really take his Lakers over Mj's Bulls? I wouldn't. If the hype is true, I'm more worried about LeBron than Yao. Yao can be guarded and limited by the right defender.
> 
> That being said, I do believe that Yao could be the greatest center ever. How long he remains at that level has yet to be seen- the only player who was even close to Yao's height and build was Georghe Murheason, and while he was successful for a while, his career was severely limited by injuries.


I couldnt' agree more,
Seeing Yao run the court is not pretty. Its clear that his body has never taken this type of pounding. I would not be surprised if the Chinese pro league is 95% half court sets. I really hope his body holds up, he is already my favorite player to watch.


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

and lets all remember that ming played in the world championships this fall, he isnt at 100% just yet, look at pao gasol that dude is BURRRNED OUT! he dosent look like the same gasol that captured out hearts last season(how cheesy eh?  )

i am anxiously waiting for a fully rested, fully conditioned and much stronger ming next season.


----------



## Nesovic (Jul 10, 2002)

I would trade curry and chandler for yao. JWill still might be a superstar if he develops an outside shot and learns how to play defense.


----------



## lanqiu (Dec 8, 2002)

We can't only look at the offense. For a championship team, defense is more important. JWill's height will always be a liability, provided he doesn't develop Stockton or Patton's mentality.
Curry simply has no desire to play D.

Look at Houston's D and compare with last year's, you can see Yao's presence make a difference.

Damn it, if Krause traded JWill and Curry on draft day, Houston might happily take it. Now there is no way for Houston to let Yao go at any price, basketballwise. Let alone his market potential.

All the experts like Sam Smith should eat crows for attacking Krause's obsession with Yao.


----------



## lanqiu (Dec 8, 2002)

Even JWill develops into Isiah Thomas' mode. Defensewise, he still can't be as effective Isiah. Isiah plays in a team full of defensive standouts and tough guys, such as Rodman, Lambeer, James Edward, and Dumas. Isiah can take less responsibility on D. Look at Bull's roster, who is going to cover JWill's tail?


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Damn it, if Krause traded JWill and Curry on draft day, Houston might happily take it. Now there is no way for Houston to let Yao go at any price, basketballwise. Let alone his market potential.


I'd be pretty happy if the Bulls had made that trade, but it would have been a huge risk. Trading two developing stars for one developing superstar who may or may not be injury prone? We certainly would be a better team if this has happened (especially since we have JC), but I can understand why Krause didn't do it.


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Even JWill develops into Isiah Thomas' mode. Defensewise, he still can't be as effective Isiah. Isiah plays in a team full of defensive standouts and tough guys, such as Rodman, Lambeer, James Edward, and Dumas. Isiah can take less responsibility on D. Look at Bull's roster, who is going to cover JWill's tail?


Chandler maybe? He won't be able to do it all by himself though, and for that reason the Bulls need to bring in a defensive starter via trade or free agency. 
One thing I don't understand, though, is why everyone assumes that Jay will be a horrible defender. Yeah he's short, but he's strong and quick, and will be able to press the ball, stay in front of his man, and play the passing lanes. I'd rather have a guy shooting over him than blowing past him. Iverson is even smaller, but gets tons of steals because of his quickness.


----------



## lanqiu (Dec 8, 2002)

There is a difference between big fells playing D and little guys doing it. Big guys with mobility can be a intimidating stopper by standing in the paint. However, for little guy, defense is pure effort. You can't expect your PG do everything. That is why big guy is always more valuable on defense.

Everybody knows that if the Bulls drafted Hakeem instead of Jordan in 1984, they will got the rings much earlier. Imagine a team with Hakeem, Charles Oakly, Horace Grant, Pippen, Craig Hodges. Jordan struggled so many years in playoff until the team found a solution for center. BTW, Cartwright was a former all-star. 

Look at Kevin Garnett, that is the fate of a centerless team.

So I think center is always the most important position and also the hardest position to fill. 

Chicago got rings with Pax, Amstrong and Harper as PG. Houston used Kenny Smith. And Lakeres had Harper, Fisher.....

PG is not as important as the old days with the new concept of do-everything swingman and point forward.


----------



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

*Jay Williams and Curry for Yao*

I agree only if Yao is healthy.

JK is really good GM. He went to watch Yao play in China.


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> There is a difference between big fells playing D and little guys doing it. Big guys with mobility can be a intimidating stopper by standing in the paint. However, for little guy, defense is pure effort. You can't expect your PG do everything. That is why big guy is always more valuable on defense.


I think u missed the point of my post- I was not sayiing that Jay will have the same defensive impact as Yao (or even close to it), just that I don't understand why everyone considers Jay a liability on D.


> Everybody knows that if the Bulls drafted Hakeem instead of Jordan in 1984, they will got the rings much earlier. Imagine a team with Hakeem, Charles Oakly, Horace Grant, Pippen, Craig Hodges. Jordan struggled so many years in playoff until the team found a solution for center. BTW, Cartwright was a former all-star.


Uh, everyone knows this to be a fact? Sorry, but i don't agree, and I doubt there are many who would have drafted Hakeem over the greatest player the game has ever seen, knowing what we know now. Hakeem was great, but he was no MJ.


> So I think center is always the most important position and also the hardest position to fill.


I agree, and that's why I praise Krause for getting two athletic young 7-footers. Chandler is gonna be a stud (perhaps the only player in the league who will give Yao trouble defensively in the future), and Curry's better than people give him credit for. I know Curry isn't exactly the greatest hustler in the world ( ), but I'm sure he'll be an adequete defender and rebounder once he learns how to stay in position and rotate properly on D. And outside of Ming, name one young center in this league w/as much upside and offensive potential.


----------



## willieblack (Jun 5, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> Louie,
> 
> Your post reminds me of how the NBA years ago had these one-on-one contests for television. I remember some quick guard had to play against Jabbar and destroyed him. It wasn't even close.


I believe that the basketball "event" that you are refering to was a one on one game between Kareem and the Doctor(J), a game in which Doc was taken apart. To this day Doc freely admits that he was no competition for Kareem one on one...just too much size inside. Doc could not rebound or disrupt Kareem's shot. Size in this league simply can not be taught.


----------



## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

while I'm sure they both will become great players, there is no substitute for Yao Ming's size, and he has the skills to go with it. Houston made the right decision in picking Yao Ming.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

Yao has been impressive. His passing skills are akin to an old Bull- Tom Boerwinkle- one of the best passer's from the post. Yao's shooting is uncontestable because of his height...........

.............but...........

as other players play against him and study him on tape, they'll learn his tendencies. Right now, his game is unfamiliar. he's sort of like a rookie pitcher, who player's don't know his pitches. 

As other player's learn his tendencies (does he turn left? Does he put the ball down when he turns right? Et cetera) , he'll become easier to defend and thus less effective and his shooting percentages won't be as gaudy. Yao, then, to stay effective, will have to coninute to develop his game, which, he of course is capable of doing. however, right now due to unfamiliarity, yao's in something of a honeymoon period, and before anyone project's "stardom" for him, one really has to see how he perform's the second and third time he plays players like Tim Duncan, Shaq, et cetera this year and next.

Now as for the comparing Yao to Jay , the question is how many 7'6 guys are in the league (or will be in the league) who can play versus how many 6'1 guys in the league (or who will be in the league) who can play?

In the history of the league, their have been only 5 player's around 7'6, and thus far Yao seems like the only one with any real skills. Nevitt, Bol, bradley and Murasan aren't/weren't any good. At 7'4 there are/were two good players- Smits and Z. Like others mentioned most of these players have been plagued with foot and knee problems.

The 6'0- 6'1, point guard? Quite a few effective ones- nash, Bibby, Jackson, et cetera. But PG's are also gettting taller into the 6'3 to 6'5 range (with shoes) like Arenas, B.Davis, A.miller, Payton, Kidd, and E. Snow. Jay Will continues to have problems against taller guards who shoot over him at will (e.g. Alvin williams shots were uncontested). It is interesting to wonder whether Isiah would have been as effected in the league today with the larger 1's like payton, kidd, et cetera.

But there are also a ton of 6'0 t 6'3 pg's on the horizon, who will come into the league next season, some of whom have better "pure" pg skills than JWill. Duhon is on top of that list. Others include NC's Felton, ND's Thomas, Pitt's Knight and St John's Hatten. After watching a couple Duke games this year, I'm again extremely impressed by Duhon. Duhon, unlike JWill, is also a very good defender.

Now how many 7'6 players with game are coming into the league?
Not many I know of, so the point is that Yao brings unprecedented- unique- size and skills for his size to the league, whereas JWill, in my opinion, isn't even better than his former college teammate who'll be in the league next season.

Would I have traded the 2 and Curry for yao?

I think this is moot becuase Houston had absolutely no need for jay Williams seeing that they had a much better player at the SPG (shooting point guard) alaready with better size and d in Stevie Franchise.

Besides when Curry is yao's age - a ripe old 22. In my opnion, there will be a lot of people who will owe EC an apology for being so critical of him so early in his career.


----------



## The Krakken (Jul 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>lanqiu</b>!
> There is a difference between big fells playing D and little guys doing it. Big guys with mobility can be a intimidating stopper by standing in the paint. However, for little guy, defense is pure effort. You can't expect your PG do everything. That is why big guy is always more valuable on defense.
> 
> Everybody knows that if the Bulls drafted Hakeem instead of Jordan in 1984, they will got the rings much earlier. Imagine a team with Hakeem, Charles Oakly, Horace Grant, Pippen, Craig Hodges. Jordan struggled so many years in playoff until the team found a solution for center. BTW, Cartwright was a former all-star.
> ...


So you realize what a contradiction this post is? You must not.



> So I think center is always the most important position and also the hardest position to fill.


I agree, yet when you say this:



> Chicago got rings with Pax, Amstrong and Harper as PG. Houston used Kenny Smith.


You conveniently ignore that the bulls did NOT have a dominant center at that time either. Cartwright was servicable at best, and longley wasn't even cartwright.



> PG is not as important as the old days with the new concept of do-everything swingman and point forward.


I believe you couldn't be more wrong. Only a few of those do everything swingmen have titles. Without Bibby, Sac loses in 4 straight to LA last year, and without Kidd, NJ doesn't make the finals. Guess what, if Dallas or Sacremento wins the title this year, it will be without a dominant center, and with a pretty good PG. Do it all swingmen are at their best when they in fact....don't do it all.


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

A little off-topic, but since I've seen Z praise Duhon about 47 times over the last month, I just want to know how good he thinks his pure-point skills are.

The reason I ask is there have only been a handful of great point guards able to control an NBA game without scoring--Cousy, Magic, Stockton, and Kidd. I have huge questions about Duhon's ability to score at the NBA level, and I don't think his passing ability is so great that it'll sufficiently offset that weakness.

While Duhon is undeniably a better on-the-ball defender, he's just as small as Jay and probably not as strong, and in either case he'll be just as susceptible to getting posted up.


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Two quick comments:

1) Despite the polish of JWill coming out of college he has been asked to make substansial adjustments to his game. I don't think he will chronically be a bad defender, instead the fact that he was rarely given the task of guarding alpha players at Duke is beginning to show. He has the physical speed and smarts and is merely going through an adjustment period. 


2) I 'm sorry, I just dont see players going through an adjustment period on Yao. A turn-around hook shot from the bass line by a player that is six inches taller than every other player on the court, is simply not defendable. Ming is already the most fundamentally sound center in the league and there is no answer for a colection of solid moves by an agile big man. The only learning curve that is taking place is his adjustment to the NBA.


----------



## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 2) I 'm sorry, I just dont see players going through an adjustment period on Yao. A turn-around hook shot from the bass line by a player that is six inches taller than every other player on the court, is simply not defendable.


Agree. Best I remember, Kareem's sky hook was as effective in 1985 as it was in 1971 (although his overall game may not have been).


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> 2) I 'm sorry, I just dont see players going through an adjustment period on Yao. A turn-around hook shot from the bass line by a player that is *six inches taller * than every other player on the court, is simply not defendable. Ming is already the most fundamentally sound center in the league and there is no answer for a colection of solid moves by an agile big man. The only learning curve that is taking place is his adjustment to the NBA.


This is true- that's why we're so lucky to have Chandler, who by the way is only 3 inches shorter than Yao with considerably better hops and mobility (I think I've mentioned before that Yao has relatively short arms as well). I'm not expecting him to be up there blocking Yao's shots, but he'll be able to get a hand in his face and make him less effective. But you're right- I don't foresee his stats decreasing either.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 2) I 'm sorry, I just dont see players going through an adjustment period on Yao. A turn-around hook shot from the bass line by a player that is six inches taller than every other player on the court, is simply not defendable. Ming is already the most fundamentally sound center in the league and there is no answer for a colection of solid moves by an agile big man. The only learning curve that is taking place is his adjustment to the NBA.


Yao, will have to make the same adjustments that even tall players like the 7'4" Zydrunas Ilgauskas have had to make.

Players will study film of him and the Rockets, and devise
all kinds of ways of denying him the ball, or denying him position,
or reacting to him when he brings the ball down low when
he moves or stripping him from behind.

How good Yao will be will depend largely on how he 
develops to overcome these reactions.

Every player, even Shaq, is defensible in the league.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> A little off-topic, but since I've seen Z praise Duhon about 47 times over the last month, I just want to know how good he thinks his pure-point skills are.


I'm with you about Duhon being overrated as a NBA PG prospect.


----------



## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> jay will be to steve nash what yao will be to a 7'5 tim duncan, who would you have?
> 
> even if jay ends up as the best point guard in the league he will never be the defensive stopper that baron davis, jason kidd and GP are, but lets say he did. lets say he is on the ALL NBA Defensive team one day, would you STILL take him(or baron davis, payton or kidd) over a 7'5 Tim Duncan? let alone a 6'11 Tim Duncan?


That's an interesting way of looking at it, nice point of view.

I too would pick Ming.

-Petey


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Every player, even Shaq, is defensible in the league.


Exactly. I think we should all remember this when we refer to someone as "unstoppable"- there's no such thing (with the possible exception of Jordan in his prime)


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> Yao, will have to make the same adjustments that even tall players like the 7'4" Zydrunas Ilgauskas have had to make.
> ...


couldnt the same be said about anyone in the league? it would be more of a problem if the rockets didnt have steve francis.


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> This is true- that's why we're so lucky to have Chandler, who by the way is only 3 inches shorter than Yao with considerably better hops and mobility


Man, I have issues with any one putting the names Yao and Chandler in the same sentence. We Bulls fans, can only dream that Chandler develops half of Yaos fundamentals. I'm not dark on Chandlers potential, but come on this is a reach.

I'll wont criticize Ztect for naming Zydrunas in his post because he is only stating that Yao will have to make similar adjustments. Truth be told Z's game (the player) is probably closer to Z's (the poster) then Ming's. I don't know if I even understood that last sentence.


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

Yao will be called home as tensions between China and the US will soon increase...(probably resulting in war between the two countries). Taiwan, N. Korea, or oil...it's going to happen. China is a budding superpower, and it's the US's stated goal to thwart the development of new superpowers for it's own protection---especially when they are not democratic in nature.

Of course, league play will probably be canceled during that time, so Jay or Yao---it doesn't matter.


----------



## FatDaddy (Nov 13, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>gettinbranded</b>!
> Yao will be called home as tensions between China and the US will soon increase...(probably resulting in war between the two countries). Taiwan, N. Korea, or oil...it's going to happen. China is a budding superpower, and it's the US's stated goal to thwart the development of new superpowers for it's own protection---especially when they are not democratic in nature.
> 
> Of course, league play will probably be canceled during that time, so Jay or Yao---it doesn't matter.


btw, Military partners China and Russia will beat Taiwan. USA don't like to join the war. 

Don't post any more politics here. Thanks.


----------



## The Truth (Jul 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> I'm with you about Duhon being overrated as a NBA PG prospect.



Before this season, I really thought Duhon was overrated as an NBA prospect. However, after watching him as a leader for the first few games this season, I have changed my mind. Whoever drafts him must be looking for a distributing point guard, not a scorer, but if that's what a team is looking for, Duhon will be very good.

Duhon's court vision is incredible. He sets his teammates up for very easy baskets, and controls the tempo of the game. He's one of the best at leading a fast break, and he is known as one of the best (if not the best) on the ball defender in college basketball. It looks like he is becoming an elite off the ball defender as well. If you had seen the Michigan game, he came from absolutely nowhere to steal passes time after time.

If a team is looking for a superstar point guard, they need to look somewhere else. However, if they are looking to build team chemistry and want a point guard that always thinks pass first and a player that is an elite defender, Duhon would be a very good fit.


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Man, I have issues with any one putting the names Yao and Chandler in the same sentence. We Bulls fans, can only dream that Chandler develops half of Yaos fundamentals. I'm not dark on Chandlers potential, but come on this is a reach.


I think u misunderstood me- I never said Chandler would be as good as Yao. Actually I think Yao, if he stays healthy, can be the greatest center ever. I don't have hopes like that for Chandler, I just think that he may one day be the only player in this league who can defend Yao and at least make less efficient. Chandler could be the Vlade to Yao's Shaq. (Note: this is not meant to compare Chandler to Vlade or Yao to Shaq as players, cause they're really nothing alike)


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>The Truth</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well put. Duhon is a throw back "pass first" pg who is
so unselfish it's hard to believe players like him still
exist in the game. In the Mich/Duke game, when he led 
on the break, and then dished back for his teammate
to make a spectacular finish....that was great.

jWill, is more of the new wave "SPG"...that is a shooting point
guard...

This difference is partly why IMO Duhon makes better 
decisions with the ball, since there is less indecision about
whether to pass or shoot. Duhon is always first
looking for the pass (even though he gets his points),
whereas Jay is always deciding whether to create for
himself or for a teammate.

Marcus hatten's game IMO is much more similar to jay's.

Thus for me, I like Duhon's game better than Jay's for 2 reasons.
1). Decision making and 2). Duhon has always been the superior defender with much better footwork.

No doubt though Jay is the much flashier player


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

I still think Duhon's way overrated as a prospect. Weren't people saying the same things about Bobby Hurley once upon a time? (Yeah, I know he got into an accident, but i don't think it affected his game all that much- he wasn't going to be a star anyway IMO). Duhon, like Hurley, is a somewhat talented player who is made to look much better than he is by the Duke system.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> I still think Duhon's way overrated as a prospect. Weren't people saying the same things about Bobby Hurley once upon a time? (Yeah, I know he got into an accident, but i don't think it affected his game all that much- he wasn't going to be a star anyway IMO). Duhon, like Hurley, is a somewhat talented player who is made to look much better than he is by the Duke system.


One could easily argue that your comment pertains more to jWill, than Duhon....

Watch a few more Duke games this yr, Duhon's averaging around 9 assists and only approx. 3 to's (on a team with a lot of freshman)..

jWill's assist to to ratio, if I remember correctly, was around 1.4 to 1 on an experienced team, not 3 to 1 like Duhon's

even when they were on the team together Duhon's asst to to ratio was much much better w. Duhon having a lot more assists.

This all comes down to decision making, and Duhon's within the same system as jWill has a much much better record.....and defense too


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*JWILL & Duhon*



> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> even when they were on the team together Duhon's asst to to ratio was much much better w. Duhon having a lot more assists.
> 
> This all comes down to decision making, and Duhon's within the same system as jWill has a much much better record.....


LOL. Is 1 Assist/game a lot more assists? If you could eliminate assists to the other player, JWill probably had more assists.

Don't get too hung up on A\TO ratio. Paxon's and Kerr's were always a lot better than MJ's and Pip's. Was Paxon's decision making better than MJ's? I don't think so. :no:


----------



## Salvaged Ship (Jul 10, 2002)

Regarding Ming, I don't see him as possibly "the greatest center ever". Better than Jabbar, Chaimberlain, Shaq? No way. 

Saying that, I will give the guy loads of credit. He is slow, but he does have great fundamentals and is a great shooter for a big guy. He will probably not be the greatest defender, despite his size. He is slow. But his passing from the post is outstanding. 

Reminds me alot of when Chamberlain finally decided to pass the ball instead of shoot every time. Wilt used to hold that ball with one hand and whip it around, faking out defenders, then delivering a great one hand pass to cutters in the lane. Yao did that in yesterdays Houston/Sacramento game several times and made some terrific passes.

That houston team is really loaded for the next few years. not just "potential" like we have. Yao, Francis, Mobley, Eddie Griffin, and a few other nice bench players make this team a threat. not a championship caliber team this year, but maybe in the next 2 or 3.


----------



## Da Grinch (Aug 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> The 6'0- 6'1, point guard? Quite a few effective ones- nash, Bibby, Jackson, et cetera. But PG's are also gettting taller into the 6'3 to 6'5 range (with shoes) like Arenas, B.Davis, A.miller, Payton, Kidd, and E. Snow. Jay Will continues to have problems against taller guards who shoot over him at will (e.g. Alvin williams shots were uncontested). It is interesting to wonder whether Isiah would have been as effected in the league today with the larger 1's like payton, kidd, et cetera.


for the record Isiah use to say 6'5 Michael Ray Richardson use to "dominate" him because of how well used his size and ballhwking ability so size could bother him (6"3jay humpries use to do good against him as well)

but there were a # of big point guards(6'3 and above) in Thomas' era Derek harper norm nixon fat lever dennis johnson doc rivers to name some and he usually did pretty well


----------



## Machinehead (Jun 12, 2002)

The only thing I will add to this debate is that it is no coincidence that the Rox are 12 and 8 with Yao 

He is proving himself a difference maker - and yea sure other teams wil get a read on him and play him accordingly 

But you can't get hip to a read on 7'6 with passing skills and post agility 

The Rox will be legit with Yao and ( IMO ) will win titles with Yao , Griffin , Nachbar , Mobely and Franchise within 5 years 

Bold statement I know .. but I am a bold kind of guy


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: JWILL & Duhon*



> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> LOL. Is 1 Assist/game a lot more assists? If you could eliminate assists to the other player, JWill probably had more assists.
> ...


Sorry jWill, even his frosh yr, when he was the primary PG
never had 8.8 assists per game. 

jWill best asssists numbers were his frosh yr when he averaged 5.9 pr yr. jWill's assist averages went down his soph and junior yr, as his scoring responsibilities went up.

Furthermore, PAx and Kerr were never pg's. In the triangle Pippen and Jordan fulfilled this role. Kerr and Pax's responsibilites was to run to a spot in the corner, or around the perimeter and be ready for an open look if Jordan or Pippen kiccked out of a double team. So basically your analogy really has nothing to do with the conversation, since neither kerr nor Pax's primary decisions dealt with distrbuting the ball


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>F.Jerzy</b>!
> The only thing I will add to this debate is that it is no coincidence that the Rox are 12 and 8 with Yao
> 
> He is proving himself a difference maker - and yea sure other teams wil get a read on him and play him accordingly
> ...


Rox had a lot of injuries (Rice/Taylor) last yr, plus Stevie missed a lot of games due to migranes. So even w/o Yao, the Rox would have an improved record this year. 

But Yao does help, and his shooting ability ...that is the need to guard him out to the perimeter opens up the lane for Mobley and Francis since the opposing center has to follow Yao out to guard him, which helps to open up the paint.


----------



## FJ_of _Rockaway (May 28, 2002)

Good point in that Stevie and Cat love to drive it in


----------



## Kneepad (Jun 24, 2002)

*Re: Re: JWILL & Duhon*



> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> Furthermore, PAx and Kerr were never pg's. In the triangle Pippen and Jordan fulfilled this role. Kerr and Pax's responsibilites was to run to a spot in the corner, or around the perimeter and be ready for an open look if Jordan or Pippen kiccked out of a double team. So basically your analogy really has nothing to do with the conversation, since neither kerr nor Pax's primary decisions dealt with distrbuting the ball


That is a vast over-generalization of Paxon's and Kerr's role with the Bulls, in my opinion. Phil Jackson used to say that he kept John Paxon on the court because he, more than any other player, knew how to get the Bulls into their offense.

Both of those guys were very smart all-around players who contributed much more than spot-up shooting.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: JWILL & Duhon*



> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> Sorry jWill, even his frosh yr, when he was the primary PG
> never had 8.8 assists per game. l


Oh, I see. You want to compare JWill's assist totals either as a freshman or after he selflessly moved over to SG to Duhon's numbers as a junior 5 games into the college season. And conclude that JWill will be the inferior NBA decision maker. 

Pretty bogus methodology.


----------



## pjc845 (Jun 9, 2002)

*Please*

Does anyone think that Houston would trade Yao for anyone in this league? Much less a developing PG (with a promising future in front of him) and a complete bust like Curry?

And the person who said they'd trade Chandler and Curry for Ming? C'mon. I'd trade Chandler and Curry for Brad Miller at this point. I think they are both busts. We should have traded up for Ming, no question. I knew it then, I know it now.


----------



## pjc845 (Jun 9, 2002)

*You're joking*



> Originally posted by <b>HAWK23</b>!
> i'll be short with this and say Curry and the #2 pick for JUST Ming would be overpaying....


It would be the deal of the century for the Bulls. Unloading two mistakes who will never amount to anything and don't belong in the NBA at this point, for the DYNASTY?

You must be a frickin comedian.


----------



## FatDaddy (Nov 13, 2002)

Rockets will reject the trade if Clippers want to trade Kandi/Brand for Yao. Why?
it cost too much money.
So Bulls/Rockets trade can't go down.


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

*Re: Please*



> Originally posted by <b>pjc845</b>!
> Does anyone think that Houston would trade Yao for anyone in this league? Much less a developing PG (with a promising future in front of him) and a complete bust like Curry?


Off topic:
I'll be brief and at the risk of speaking for others on this board make the statement "while most of the posters here are very high on Ming, few if any of us agree with you."

Just because we like a certain pick dosent mean we are necessarily down on the prospects of Jwill, Curry or Chandler.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: JWILL & Duhon*



> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> Oh, I see. You want to compare JWill's assist totals either as a freshman or after he selflessly moved over to SG to Duhon's numbers as a junior 5 games into the college season. And conclude that JWill will be the inferior NBA decision maker.
> ...


No apparently you don't see, or choose not to look

If you watched a few Duke games over the last few
years with jWill w/o Duhon, jWll w/.. Duhon, and Duhon w/o
jWill, you 'd have seen that Duhon doing a much better
job of distributing the ball, Duhon making fewer to's,
Duhon making better decisions, Duhon being the better
defender, and jWill being the better scorer....all within
the same Coach K system.

If you're going to argue that the system makes the player,
(which was your initial argument), then you're going to
have to evaluate your personal messiah within that same
framework.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: JWILL & Duhon*



> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> If you watched a few Duke games over the last few
> years with jWill w/o Duhon, jWll w/.. Duhon, and Duhon w/o
> jWill, you 'd have seen that Duhon doing a much better
> ...


I watched Duke games over the last few years. So did a lot of NBA scouts.

JWill was a consensus top two pick in each of the last 2 drafts. He was not considered the 2nd best NBA PG prospect behind Duhon. Clearly, you think Duhon is the better NBA PG prospect. 

So either you are right and all the experts are wrong. Or vice versa. 

I am banking with the experts. And my own 2 eyes.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: JWILL & Duhon*



> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> I watched Duke games over the last few years. So did a lot of NBA scouts.
> ...


Most NBA scouts would clearly say that Duhon is a better "pure position" PG like Kidd or A.Miller whereas Jay is a pg who likes to shoot a lot or what is now known as a SPG or shooting point guard like baron Davis, and Steve Francis (though w/o the size)

Regardless, watched Yao tonight against Memphis and Pau. 
It was a Yao-Pau night.

Every comment about yao should be followed by the statement ...." someone who's 7'6"".

For example, Yao runs the floor well for... someone who's 7'6"

Yao doesn't jump very well, but "someone who's 7'6" " really doesn't have to.

Yao moves well vs 7'4 and 7'6 stiffs, but he really isn't very quick. He's couldn't guard PAu, and Houston didn't even really try to use Yao to defend him.

Yao also lost all three jump balls he jumped to Pau and Wright. Not only is yao a poor jumper, but he's not a very quick jumper.

Yao benefits quite a bit from Stevie's penetration breaking down the defense. Yao gets some dishes but a lot more put backs on Stevie's misses, which helps to elevate his FG%

Respect for Yao's range, as I suspected, also helps Francis and Mobley drive the lane, since the big man has to follow Yao out of the paint. After a drive however, Yao does get back to the boards well after a Francis miss..to get the put backs noted above.

though, yao only has brief flashes of aggression. He played quite passively especially relatively to Pau. Pau's fire and agrresion for someone so thin was quite impressive. Yao got more of his rebounds simply becuase ...someone who's 7'6...is taller than other people.

On the boards in the paint, and with fouls, Yao must have diplomatic immunity. There were a number of 3 second non-calls on him on both ends of the court. On one occassion, I counted him in the paint 6 seconds w/o him touching the ball. Yao also had 3 blatant non-calls that would have landed his fellow countryman Batere on the pine. The NBA refs realize (or have been told) that cutting Yao some slack and keeping him in the game helps the NBA's business. All the new Asian fans and Asian pride is great for the game... and the bottomline.

The above is not take anything away from yao's game for he displayed a nice array of moves, and has only been in the country for 7 weeks..so he does have skills.... especially for...someone who's 7'6". However, he did seem to go too much to his left shoulder dip, and right turn-around. The move will be too predictable, and within the game it became anticipated, when Jason Williams recognized it and stripped him of the ball when Yao brought it down before the turn to the right.

yao for all his size, also had a very hard time rotating and helping on Jason Williams quick penetrations. Yao altered a lot of shots, but he simply isn't that quick, aggressive or athletic, at least for a seven footer...but then again for someone who's 7'6.....

Yao can add some strenght, but that won't really help his quickness or hops which to me is he greatest lacking. 7 footers with hops like Pau, J.O'neil, eventually Tyson will be able to create mismatch problems for him on defense, and should help contain him on the perimeter when yao's on offense. teams building around twin towers with a quick tall 4, and muscular 5 should match up well against yao, and also help against Stevie's penetration, since the atheletic 4 can guard yao outside, while the muscular 5 can stay home in the paint.

On thing nice about Yao, and even Pau for that matter, is that they've played in championship situations, even if, in the case of yao, it was the CBA. Yao's been a pro since what? 14 or 15? His years of playing with older more experienced players in the WC's, Olympics and CBA really have made him immediately more useful (ie. NBA ready) and composed on the floor during pressure situations. This exposure that foreign players get even blow away what 4 yr college players get, let alone high schoolers. Becuase of this glaring disparity, right now it isn't even fair to compare yao with Curry or Chandler. Based on athleticism alone, I like the Bulls future with Chandler and Curry when they're 25 yrs old, rather than with a 28 yr old Ming. Though I'd probably take Pau over any of them....Pau not only has skills, but he has one thing you can't teach: ATTITUDE...something EC and YAo both need more of to succeed.

Regardless, Yao can be a very good 5 with some unprecedented skills. In a league short on 5's, he could even be one of the better 5's. But to mention him in the same breath as Wilt, Jabbar, Shaq is really going overboard.


----------



## ScottMay (Jun 15, 2002)

Z, that's a great take on Yao's game tonight and every other night, and while I'm not at all a conspiracy buff, you've hit one nail square on the head--Yao is simply granted diplomatic immunity on the court. I haven't seen him get a single offensive rebound where he hasn't been wildly over someone's back; he gets an extra step when finishing on the break, executing a reverse pivot, or shooting his trademark baseline jumper; he gets to build his own Great Wall in the paint; and he hacks like he's on one of those ESPN woodsman competitions when he's on defense. 

Hell, maybe the quickest way for Chandler and Curry to improve is to apply for North Korean citizenship. Ain't realpolitik a kick in the Chuck Taylors?


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ScottMay</b>!
> Z, that's a great take on Yao's game tonight and every other night, and while I'm not at all a conspiracy buff, you've hit one nail square on the head--Yao is simply granted diplomatic immunity on the court. I haven't seen him get a single offensive rebound where he hasn't been wildly over someone's back; he gets an extra step when finishing on the break, executing a reverse pivot, or shooting his trademark baseline jumper; he gets to build his own Great Wall in the paint; and he hacks like he's on one of those ESPN woodsman competitions when he's on defense.
> 
> Hell, maybe the quickest way for Chandler and Curry to improve is to apply for North Korean citizenship. Ain't realpolitik a kick in the Chuck Taylors?


EC & TC actually are on the opposite end of the spectrum. They really won't get any calls while they're still considered "high schoolers". they'll also get called for every little ticky tack foul.

With the NBA commish wanting to raise the NBA minimum age to 20, the last thing the commish wants the refs doing is gives teenagers (or just turned 20 yr olds) calls. 

Anything that can be used to discourage kids from high school from jumping to the NBA will be utilized...so that the league can preach about how the kids just aren't ready and should have gone to school....(where the colleges can profit from them).

After watching Diop play some tonight, I'm pretty convinced that all four hs'ers drafted last year including Diop will be signifcant players in this league for yrs to come...just have to have patience with them...

The NBA really should have a minor league system where these kids can get NBA level coaching and development their fundamentals with more playing time, and not have to deal with the pretense of college (which they could always attend later).


----------



## pjc845 (Jun 9, 2002)

*Only on a Bulls board*

Mentioning EC or TC in the same post as Yao Ming is laughable, unless you are demonstrating how poor our baby Bulls are in terms of skills and talent to Yao Ming. EC and TC will end up as Brad Sellers. Yao Ming is already dominant when he wants to be and the sky remains the limit. Yao has had 5 straight double doubles through tonight and is capable of scoring 30+ if the ROX give him the ball. 

Comparing him to Gasol is at least reasonable, given that Pau is actually a great player, unlike Curry or Chandler. Consider though, that unlike Pau, Ming is not considered his team's first option. If he were on the Grizzlies, his scoring numbers would increase dramatically. Pau and Drew Gooden benefit in their stats by having no one else on that team able to do anything.

Also, Yao Ming is not a forward. Pau Gasol is. Gasol may be quick enough to get by Ming, but Pau cannot do anything to stop Ming if Yao wants to score. There are things that Pau can do that Yao cannot. There are more things that Yao can do that Pau cannot.

The same would go for TC and EC, except that even on a crappy team like the Bulls, they can't even shine. If Yao were on the Bulls, and my wet dreams had come true, Curry and Chandler would be benched. There's no way neither would play ahead of Ming. Ever.

Finally, Yao has instantly made the Rockets winners. The Grizzlies and Bulls still suck and still will be in the lottery next year. Maybe one of the teams (hopefully us) will land Lebron James, who is actually someone I'd consider in the same league or maybe even beyond Yao Ming.


----------



## crash2002 (Dec 14, 2002)

I guess the guy is allowed to have his opinion but it was a very biased report at best. 

1. Is Pau Gasol better than Yao Ming right now? He should be. Of course Rudy T smartly matched Yao Ming up against the Memphis centers and not Pau Gasol. Wait until Yao Ming has a full season and off-season under his belt. 

2. Did the refs cut Yao Ming some slack on a couple of fouls and 3 second penalties? Maybe but they certainly made plenty of bad calls that did not favor Yao Ming. For example: 
Early in the game Yao Ming grabbed an offensive rebound and got fouled as he made the shot falling to his back. The basket was waved off and the ball was brought in out of bounds. After the Rockets missed the shot Memphis went down the court and scored, that was a 5 point turn around in favor of Memphis because of a bad call by an official. Another bad call happened when Yao Ming grabbed another offensive rebound late in the fourth quarter and got whacked on the head, as he was falling Stromile Swift put his hand on the ball and a jump ball was called. Instead of Yao Ming getting 2 free throws Swift won the jump ball and Memphis got the basket for a 4 point turn around courtesy of an officials non-call on what was clearly a foul to the head of Yao Ming . A third bad call also happened in the 4th quarter when Pau Gasol drove under the basket only to find himself face to face with Yao Ming. Yao Ming had both feet planted on the floor, was squared up to Pau with his hands up in the air outside of the restricted area and did not leave his feet. Pau shoots the ball and Yao Ming gets called for the mystery foul. A very important bad call at the end of a close game. 1. So maybe this particular Bulls fan needs to critique all of the officials calls, not just the ones that they should have made against Yao Ming. Clearly Yao Ming was the victim of very poor officiating as well. 

3. Did Yao Ming play somewhat passive at times during the games? Absolutely. Did he play passive in the 4th quarter? Hell no! that is where he got about half of his rebounds and points. Yao Ming was huge in the 4th quarter even though he was consistently positioned outside the Rockets offense. This just goes to show that Yao Ming is very intelligent. He knows that he is still a Shawn Bradley foul machine waiting to happen plus he is still suffering a bit with his energy so he has been playing a bit passive during the middle quarters of games recently and turning it on in the 4th quarter. Yao Ming knows that he is not as useful to the team if he fouls out in the 3rd quarter and officials still tend to call the phantom fouls on Yao Ming simply because he is so tall. 

4. Does Yao stand in the paint sometimes beyond seconds to position himself for a rebound? Well the rule does say that you can stand in the paint as long as you are with in arms reach of the person you are defending. Maybe if the Bulls fan wants to criticize a non-call he should criticize the officials for not calling an offensive 3-second penalty on the guy Yao Ming is guarding in the paint. 

For anything bad someone can say about Yao Ming we can say several good things about him. In a game last night that had two ROY candidates in Yao Ming and Drew Gooden is there any question who the better player is at this point? Yao Ming was a little out of sync most of the night and still scored 18 points and grabbed 15 rebounds. Drew Gooden was a complete non-factor in every sense of the word. I wonder why the Bulls fan over looked that fact? Maybe because Drew Gooden is not 7??



Curry has been very disapointing this year. His rebounding and shotblocking is poor, and he still hasn't figured out how to use his size effectively in the paint. 

Do you think Curry will ever be as smart as Ming? Asgood a passer?


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Only on a Bulls board*



> Originally posted by <b>pjc845</b>!
> Mentioning EC or TC in the same post as Yao Ming is laughable, unless you are demonstrating how poor our baby Bulls are in terms of skills and talent to Yao Ming. EC and TC will end up as Brad Sellers. Yao Ming is already dominant when he wants to be and the sky remains the limit. Yao has had 5 straight double doubles through tonight and is capable of scoring 30+ if the ROX give him the ball.


Dominant isn't a word I used to describe Ming's play or, at least, what I saw of it last night. Opportunistic would be more appropos.
He got a lot of his points on put backs or from the charity stripe. 
As for rebounds, he's 7'6 on a team's whose leading rebounder last year was a 6'4 guard- Steve Francis. In terms of positioning for boards, he benefitted enormously from a series of non-calls specifically non 3 second calls on both ends of the court ( When he camped out under the basket on d, several times, he wasn't guarding anyone, and wasn't within 3 ft of anyone either).

As for TC and EC, they're young , but I'm confident that in just two years, they'll make similar transitions to the league that jermaine did. J. Oneil actually took over 5 yrs to establish hmself. Watching JO play in Portland...before he had any chance to develop his skills or body was pitiful. People who expect EC, TC, kwame to be instanteous contributors are simply not being realistic. 



> Comparing him to Gasol is at least reasonable, given that Pau is actually a great player, unlike Curry or Chandler. Consider though, that unlike Pau, Ming is not considered his team's first option. If he were on the Grizzlies, his scoring numbers would increase dramatically. Pau and Drew Gooden benefit in their stats by having no one else on that team able to do anything.
> 
> Also, Yao Ming is not a forward. Pau Gasol is. Gasol may be quick enough to get by Ming, but Pau cannot do anything to stop Ming if Yao wants to score. There are things that Pau can do that Yao cannot. There are more things that Yao can do that Pau cannot.


Maybe you should have watched the game. Pau guarded Ming on the defense, and did a lot to alter Ming's shots. A large portion of Ming's points also came from the foul line, or off of offensive rebounds (there were a number of non calls where Ming was clearly over the back). He in no way "dominated" anyone. I was surprised by how passively yao played, in general, and in particular relative to Pau.




> The same would go for TC and EC, except that even on a crappy team like the Bulls, they can't even shine. If Yao were on the Bulls, and my wet dreams had come true, Curry and Chandler would be benched. There's no way neither would play ahead of Ming. Ever.


if yao were on the bulls, yes currently he'd start over EC or TC for some of the reasons I've listed. But both EC & TC will be eventually be better players IMO than yao. TC is faster, jumps much better, is quicker. When he fills out, and his skills catch up to his athleticism, TC is going to be great.

Eddy as his body mature will be much stronger, and already is much quicker. Both EC & TC also have verylong arms, as opposed to Yao's short one's so the wing span and reach isn't asmuch of a difference as the height suggests

Yao is a very poor and slow jumper. He runs the court well, but doesn't have "quickness"....from what I've seen of his play in the league and during the WC's



> Finally, Yao has instantly made the Rockets winners. The Grizzlies and Bulls still suck and still will be in the lottery next year. Maybe one of the teams (hopefully us) will land Lebron James, who is actually someone I'd consider in the same league or maybe even beyond Yao Ming.


Yao has definitely helped the Rockets, and Steve Francis in particular, but he is only a prt of the reason the Rockets are winning. A healthy Steve Francis free of migranes has been a larger part of the Rockets success along with a healthy M. Taylor and G. Rice. Last season, when Stevie actually played, the Rockets were a decent team.

So saying that yao "instantly made the rockets winners" is more hyperbole which seems to be the modus operandi when assessing yao's games and skills.


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Mentioning EC or TC in the same post as Yao Ming is laughable, unless you are demonstrating how poor our baby Bulls are in terms of skills and talent to Yao Ming. EC and TC will end up as Brad Sellers. Yao Ming is already dominant when he wants to be and the sky remains the limit. Yao has had 5 straight double doubles through tonight and is capable of scoring 30+ if the ROX give him the ball.


So I guess you can evaluate a player's entire career based on what they're doing when they're 19 and 20 years old, huh? Tracy McGrady averaged 7 and 9 ppg respectively in his first two seasons, but would you consider him a great player or a Brad Sellers? I'll be the first one to recognize the fact that Yao is head and shoulders above our kids in terms of developement, but he's also had alot more time to develope his skills. He's been a pro since he was 15! Neither Chandler nor Curry, IMO, will ever be as good an individual player as Yao, but together they could give him some problems one day. This isn't Yao against the present day Robinson(who can no longer jump) and Duncan (who never could jump) we're talking about, this is Yao against the most athletic 7'2 player since Wilt and a strong frontcourt mate who is also very athletic.


> Regardless, Yao can be a very good 5 with some unprecedented skills. In a league short on 5's, he could even be one of the better 5's. But to mention him in the same breath as Wilt, Jabbar, Shaq is really going overboard.


Agreed about the unprecedented skills for a five, but i don't see why Yao can't be as good as or better than any of those three players. He's not as athletic or mobile as any of them, but he's right with them skill-wise (far ahead of Shaq ) and none of them were 7'5.


----------



## THELAKESHOW (Oct 9, 2002)

*Can I please go ahead and LOL!!!*



> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> So I guess you can evaluate a player's entire career based on what they're doing when they're 19 and 20 years old, huh? Tracy McGrady averaged 7 and 9 ppg respectively in his first two seasons, but would you consider him a great player or a Brad Sellers? I'll be the first one to recognize the fact that Yao is head and shoulders above our kids in terms of developement, but he's also had alot more time to develope his skills. He's been a pro since he was 15! Neither Chandler nor Curry, IMO, will ever be as good an individual player as Yao, but together they could give him some problems one day. This isn't Yao against the present day Robinson(who can no longer jump) and Duncan (who never could jump) we're talking about, this is Yao against the most athletic 7'2 player since Wilt and a strong frontcourt mate who is also very athletic.
> 
> Agreed about the unprecedented skills for a five, but i don't see why Yao can't be as good as or better than any of those three players. He's not as athletic or mobile as any of them, but he's right with them skill-wise (far ahead of Shaq ) and none of them were 7'5.



Chandler the most athletic 7'2" player since Wilt? First of all neither of them are/were 7'2". Chandler has done nothing, nor will he EVER do anything to be mentioned in the same sentance as Wilt Chamberlin. If you cant play more than 12 mins on one of the worst teams in the league, you should be mentioned with the likes of Luke Longley, Felton Spencer, Sam Bowie, not Chamberlin. 
And you need to wake up, the Twin Teens WILL NEVER play against Yao more than twice a year, and if Yao did that to two future HOF's why would the teenie-boppers be able to deal with him. They can't deal with ANYBODY right now.
I know, I know, give them time to develop, etc. This is gettin old and its funny how many of the Bulls fans are changing there opinions of the state of the franchise. 
No personal insults! MikeDC 

I have been telling you all whats wrong with the Bulls for months, and am glad to see that more and more Bulls fans are agreeing with me each day. This is the lowest I have ever seen this franchise, Barkley and the Gang were a riot!!! So true!!!!


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: JWILL & Duhon*



> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> Most NBA scouts would clearly say that Duhon is a better "pure position" PG like Kidd or A.Miller whereas Jay is a pg who likes to shoot a lot or what is now known as a SPG or shooting point guard like baron Davis, and Steve Francis (though w/o the size)


The point is that JWill was the concenses best NBA PG prospect in all of college ball last year. Your analysis is out of wack when you label Duhon better at a half dozen items and say well perhaps JWill can shoot better.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> Agreed about the unprecedented skills for a five, but i don't see why Yao can't be as good as or better than any of those three players. He's not as athletic or mobile as any of them, but he's right with them skill-wise (far ahead of Shaq ) and none of them were 7'5.


The first time I saw Shaq play as a frosh for LSU, he caught a rebound, dribbled the entire length of the court like a guard, and slammed dunked to finish.

When Shaq was young, before becoming more of a power player, the guy had incredible ball handling skills.

Shaq, and Wilt for that matter are/were just freaks of nature. 
They have/had incredibly wide physiques as well as height.
In addition, these two had a ferocity or "atttitude" that comes from within and can't be taught.

Players like these two seem to come along only once every 20 years.

The combo of strength/speed/agility sets these two apart.

Yao doesn't have and realisitcally will never have the strenght/ speed or agility that Shaq or Wilt have or had. Yao though does posses incredible shooting ability. With some more strenght, he hopefully will become more assertive.

Certainly a hack a Yao straatgy won't work with Yao becuase of his shooting ability.

I personally don't believe that Yao will even be in the same league as hakeem, Ewing, and Drob when they were in their primes.

I can't really judge Sabonis, becuase by the time Sabonis played in this country he was old and his knees were shot.

Yao's ability to pass plus hit open shots with range, which opens up the lane for his teammates by drawing out the opposing team's center, is akin to the Sabonis I've seen play though. And based upon a young Yao versus an old Sabonis, the young Yao can become a better player .

I definitely feel Yao can be a much better 5 then Rik Smits or "Z', that is if he avoids the foot problems. Some may perceiving this as "dissing" Yao, but Smits was a very good center and Z does have skills that would have been more significant without all the injuries. 

In a league short on 5's, a 5 better than Smits in tandem with a SPG as good as Francis can take a team pretty far.

As for EC, I don't really buy the Baby Shaq comparison at all. EC though will hopefully develop into a Moses Malone quality center, which also is pretty damn good, though quite a bit different that a Rik Smits/Sabonis type one.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: JWILL & Duhon*



> Originally posted by <b>johnston797</b>!
> 
> 
> The point is that JWill was the concenses best NBA PG prospect in all of college ball last year. Your analysis is out of wack when you label Duhon better at a half dozen items and say well perhaps JWill can shoot better.


Nothing is out of "whack" except for your somewhat solipstic arguments

Defense, and decision making, that is "a half dozen items" are significant aspects of the game.

Duhon, like jWill, will be a very high draft choice. 
Duhon, like jWill, will be the top NBA pg prospect in his
respective draft classes

Duhon, not jWill, was the pure position 1 on Duke's
team when both played together.

Duhon, not jWill, was the lock down defender when
both played for Coach K at Duke.

Short players like AI can be effective defenders .
Duhon like AI has consistantly been a superb defender.
jWilll was not a good defender in college and he continues
to struggle on defense.

Aside from Jay's shooting woes (which may be partly 
attributable to his elbow), jay's defense IMO has been
the most disconcerning facet of his game. For all his quickness,
Jay has terrible footwork. He obviously can improve.
He obviously is more effective playing in a unit with players
who can provide more support.

I really like Jay's ability on offense to get almost anywhere on the floor he wants with his dribble penetration. Some of Jay's passes are spectacular while others are forced. With experience, he'll learn not to force the ball so much.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: JWILL & Duhon*



> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> Nothing is out of "whack" except for your somewhat solipstic arguments


Seems like you are one that did not care to defend the views you stated. Such as A\TO ratio is the best guage of decision making.

Still waiting to see if you cared to defend Paxon as the better decision maker than Jordan.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

*Yao*



> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> Every comment about yao should be followed by the statement ...." someone who's 7'6"".


This could apply to nearly every player or at least every center in the league. Is Brad Miller a superior athelete? Would Shaq be dominate at 6'8" or 6'4".



> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> The NBA refs realize (or have been told) that cutting Yao some slack and keeping him in the game helps the NBA's business. All the new Asian fans and Asian pride is great for the game... and the bottomline.


Gotta love the conspiracy theories. What would it do to the bottom line if this was true and it was discovered?



> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> In a league short on 5's, he could even be one of the better 5's.


With Kandi being described by some as the 2nd best center in the league, Ming is already there in my book as one of the better 5's.

Ming is certainly making doubters look foolish. _And to think, some posters thought that Houston might trade down several spots and pick up Curtis Borchardt._


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

johnson,

your retorts are simply obnoxious, and don't show much thought insight or desire to engage in a serious discussion.

I'm not going to respond any further to your little quips. They are boring and not worth the time. When you decide to actually develop some interesting insightful arguments, maybe then I'll again make another, most likely vain, attempt to engage in a dialogue with you. Until then, I'm placing you on ignore, and please ask you to do the same with my posts.


Thanks in advance.


----------



## Potatoe (Jun 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>crash2002</b>!
> I guess the guy is allowed to have his opinion but it was a very biased report at best.
> 
> 1. Is Pau Gasol better than Yao Ming right now? He should be. Of course Rudy T smartly matched Yao Ming up against the Memphis centers and not Pau Gasol. Wait until Yao Ming has a full season and off-season under his belt.




Very good and fair analysis of the game and Mings performance.

Mings play last night was very impressive IMO. Sure if you are being overly critical in order to further your own agenda (ahem!) then you will find fault but any objective observer who doesn't see the vast potential needs to clear the "potatoes" out of their eyes.

Ming is a huge man who plays with a fluidity that is unprecedented from a player his size. When looking at his basketball skills, size and over-all feel for the game it is easy to see why many have him pegged to be the leagues next dominant player.

Sure he has faults, but good grief he's a month and a half into his NBA career. Some are picking apart his game like he has been here for 5 seasons, these posters are clearly missing the big picture.

So what if Gasol is the more impressive player right now, Pau has a full season under his belt, of course he's better, what's the point here anyway?

All I know is that for the month of December Ming is averaging 17 points 13 boards and over 2 blocks. If he is posting those kind of stats now what kind of ludicrous numbers will he average when he hits his prime.

Scary stuff.


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Sure he has faults, but good grief he's a month and a half into his NBA career. Some are picking apart his game like he has been here for 5 seasons, these posters are clearly missing the big picture


Agreed.


> Yao doesn't have and realisitcally will never have the strenght/ speed or agility that Shaq or Wilt have or had. Yao though does posses incredible shooting ability. With some more strenght, he hopefully will become more assertive.


This is true, and it is why Ming may have trouble guarding quicker, more athletic oppponents. What I see in him is this- not only is he already an outstanding passer and rebounder, at 7'5 there are not alot of people who are going to be up there challenging his shots (except maybe Chandler ). If 7'1 Kareem's skyhook was so hard to defend , imagine 7'5 Yao's. That is why I think he at least has a chance to be one of the greatest centers ever.


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> You are obviously a teenager yourself and don't know basketball.


THELAKESHOW- this is the funniest thing I've ever read. _I_ don't know basketball?!? This coming from someone who spends all of his time inventing reasons to believe that none of the Bulls players will ever be good.


> At least other Bulls fans are unbiased in their evaluation of these teens.


If I'm so biased, why am I arguing that Ming has a chance to be one of the greatest centers ever? Last time I checked, he plays for Houston.......... 


> Chandler the most athletic 7'2" player since Wilt? First of all neither of them are/were 7'2". Chandler has done nothing, nor will he EVER do anything to be mentioned in the same sentance as Wilt Chamberlin. If you cant play more than 12 mins on one of the worst teams in the league, you should be mentioned with the likes of Luke Longley, Felton Spencer, Sam Bowie, not Chamberlin.


First- Chandler's official height, as taken in August, was 7'2, so you are obviously wrong about that...
Second-Name one 7'2 player since Wilt who is as athletic as Chandler. 
Third-If you actually read my post, you'll notice that i did nothing to compare Chandler to Wilt other than in terms of height and athletic ability, both of which are legitimate comparisons.
Fourth-There is a reason why Chandler was the #2 pick in the draft, and it's not because he's the next Felton Spencer. Every GM in the league had Chandler at or near the top of their boards, as did every mock draft, so either all the basketball experts are wrong or you are wrong. And you're telling me that I'm the one who doesn't know basketball?!?


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

This thread should be relabled "After watching a grand total of one of Yao's games-- Ztect knows everything about his skills." I know this verges on attacking another poster, but why do you keep refering to Yao's game vs. the Griz? Is is because it is one of the only games you have seen him play in all season. My suspicion says yes. I have made the Rockets one of my teams on "the ticket" and I couldn't disagree with you more.

Yes, Yao is currently slower by NBA standards. It is brutally obvious by the way Ming dosent have the endurance to play extended minutes that he just has not encountered professional level conditioning. For gods sake, almost every player coming in to the league (even when coming from a college power-house) has to recondition their bodies-- see Boozer, Baxter, and Dunleavy if you want three recent examples. Give Yao an off-season of speed drills and he will look completely different. 

This being said Yao is not slow, and will not have trouble against agile centers a season from now. I believe he has all the skills to potentially be mentioned in the same bredth as Shaq. He has no experience and a body that is not conditioned for the leauge and already is the second best center.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> First- Chandler's official height, as taken in August, was 7'2, so you are obviously wrong about that...


The official heights aren't always the true heights. But I believe he's 7'2, at least, and may still be growing ;-)



> Second-Name one 7'2 player since Wilt who is as athletic as Chandler.


David Robinson. Arvydas Sabonis (pre-injuries). Olajuwon. Ralph Sampson.

Maybe not all 7'2" or bigger, but close enough for govt. work ;-)


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

Robinson is 7'0
I never saw Sabonis pre-injuries so I can't say for sure, but something makes me doubt that a beefy 7'3 white guy was more athletic than Chandler.
Sampson is a possibility, but was he really more athletic than Chandler or just as athletic? I never saw hi m play so I wouldn't know.
My point is simply that players with Chandler's physical abilities only come around so often, and he seems to have really improved his touch around the basket and passing skills.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Potatoe</b>!
> 
> Mings play last night was very impressive IMO. Sure if you are being overly critical in order to further your own agenda (ahem!) then you will find fault but any objective observer who doesn't see the vast potential needs to clear the "potatoes" out of their eyes.


Sorry, I have no "agenda".

I have actually noted he will be a very good player.
If Rik Smitts were in the league now, Smits would argubably
be the best 5 in the league behind Shaq. This is partly
due to weakness at the 5 right now, but Smits was also
a very good player who also happened to be 7'4. Smits
also moved pretty well at least until all his foot injuries
took their toll.

However, I am not ready to annoint Yao current
or future superstar status. Nothing I 've seen thus
far would suggest that he will elevate his game to
come anywhere near the pantheon of greats 5's
who played in the league.

Arguing that yao's just in his first season, is more of a recent 
phenoma. Prior to all the high schoolers and under classmen
joining the draft, players Ming's age routinely came into the
league and contributed right away.

If you want to compare Yao to some of the great or near great 5's, look at the first yr stats of Shaq's (23.4 pts/13.9 bds), hakeem (20.6/11.9), Zo (21/10.3) or DRob's (24.3/12) not to mention Wilt's.

Ming's also been a pro on the Sharks since at least the age of 17
from what I've found. He's been within the Chinese sports training programs before that. He, like Gasol and other foriegners, have benifitted from playing against more mature players. Comparing Yao and Gasol to players like EC and TC really just doesn't make any sense right now.


FWIW. IMO if yao was on a team that actually had some other players who could rebound, his bd numbers wouldn't be so high. Just ask Donyell how one's numbers improve when you don't play alongside a player like Karl malone......


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

Sampson was listed at 7'4, but injuries really never allowed him to be much of a player in the league or fulfill his college promise.


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Z, I trust you must see the flaws in your reasoning:

Are you trying to argue that playing in the Chinese Basketball Association prepared Yao as well as 4 years of college and a summer with his selected team would have. Come, on. You cant be serious.

This aside, Yaos first year stats are comparable to the HOFers you mentioned. Take out the first few weeks of the season when Yao was trying to figure out what Country he was in and I'm sure Yao is pushing 20 and 10.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> This thread should be relabled "After watching one game of Yao-- Ztect knows everything about his game." I know this verges on attacking another poster, but why do you keep refering to Yao's game vs. the Griz? Is is because it is one of the only games you have seen him play in the season. My suspicion says yes. I've been following rockets games on the ticket all season and I couldn't disagree with you more.


No I watched him in several other games, and watched him in three games in the worlds.

I didn't really focus in on him though until reading all the hyperbole on this thread to see if he's as good as every one is claiming on this thread.

Thus far, I'm not willing to elevate him to All World status,
especially after see him lose 3 jump balls to players 5 and 6
inches shorter than him.

I will focus in on him in more games, and if he show skills that
I didn't see or does things to chnage my point of view, I'll be open minded and the thoughts I share will reflect this.

Writing that Yao could be better than Smitts with many of Sabonis's skills is a pretty good for fives in this league,
though some people here seem to believe that anything
short of a coronation is a dissing of yao.

Maybe, Yao should change his first initial to "M", then
he really couldn't inspire what hitherto seems like something
of a cultist fascination with this player's size and ability not
to be Shawn Bradley, Chuck Nevitt, or george Murasan


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

Indeed he was injured, but he did play enough in the league to have seen his abilities at their best...

<B>Ralph Sampson</B>

<FONT SIZE=-1><PRE>
Year Team GP MIN FGM FGA PCT 3M 3A PCT FTM FTA PCT ORB DRB TOT AVG AST AVG PF DQ STL AVG TO BLK AVG PTS AVG 
8384 HOU 82 2693 716 1369 523 1 4 250 287 434 661 293 620 913 11.1 163 2.0 339 16 70 0.9 294 197 2.4 1720 21.0 
8485 HOU 82 3086 753 1499 502 0 6 000 303 448 676 227 626 853 10.4 224 2.7 306 10 81 1.0 326 168 2.0 1809 22.1 
8586 HOU 79 2864 624 1280 488 2 15 133 241 376 641 258 621 879 11.1 283 3.6 308 12 99 1.3 285 129 1.6 1491 18.9
</PRE></FONT>


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Alright I realize my last post was week because I did not support it with numbers-- here goes:

In the month of December Yao is averaging
17.3 pts, 13 boards, 2.16 blocks

hmmm. more boards then Hakeem, Zoe and Drob but he probably isnt winning as many jump balls.


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> Robinson is 7'0
> I never saw Sabonis pre-injuries so I can't say for sure, but something makes me doubt that a beefy 7'3 white guy was more athletic than Chandler.
> Sampson is a possibility, but was he really more athletic than Chandler or just as athletic? I never saw hi m play so I wouldn't know.
> My point is simply that players with Chandler's physical abilities only come around so often, and he seems to have really improved his touch around the basket and passing skills.


kevin garnett, jonathan bender are two others,david robinson is 7'1, tyson chandler's official height is still listed as 7'1, it may be reaching 7'2 but according to NBA.com its still 7'1

sure tyson has size but he dosent have any talent as of yet, seriously, he dosent have real talent at this point in his career which is why i wont be too optimistic about him right now


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> Z, I trust you must see the flaws in your reasoning:
> 
> Are you trying to argue that playing in the Chinese Basketball Association prepared Yao as well as 4 years of college and a summer with his selected team would have. Come, on. You cant be serious.
> ...



Yao hasn't only played in the CBA, he's played in the worlds, the olympics, the junior worlds, in scholastic camps here in the states. Even in the CBa, he's played against and with two other NBA players Bateer and Wang as well as other foriegners who play in China. Even with inferior play, when you're 17/18/19 yrs old, playing against men in their mid twenties, as was the case with the Sharks (and in world events) will elevate one's game (certainly more than a player in high school playing against 6'5 high school centers from New trier or Crane)

I'm not writiing this is comprable to what use to be the NCAA's. I saying it is more extensive than what players striaght from high school have been exposed to prior to the league.

It also has been without any pretense (or hyprocrasy) of "getting an education" and all the coaching restrictions that that entails.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> Alright I realize my last post was week because I did not support it with numbers-- here goes:
> 
> In the month of December Yao is averaging
> ...


Who else can rebound on Houston?

6'7 Kenny Thomas? heck 6'4 Steve Francis led the 
team last yr in rebounds. griff isn;t that good on the bds despite his height.

When you don't have another primary rebounder on the team, your primary one will have much better stats....just ask Donyell


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> Who else can rebound on Houston?
> ...


 ditto ben wallace


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> kevin garnett, jonathan bender are two others,david robinson is 7'1, tyson chandler's official height is still listed as 7'1, it may be reaching 7'2 but according to NBA.com its still 7'1


Garnett's 7'0, Bender is 6'11 I believe, and I'm pretty sure Tyson is 7'2- his official height was taken when he was a rookie.


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

> Ming's also been a pro on the Sharks since at least the age of 17
> from what I've found. He's been within the Chinese sports training programs before that. He, like Gasol and other foriegners, have benifitted from playing against more mature players. Comparing Yao and Gasol to players like EC and TC really just doesn't make any sense right now.


This is a great point, ztect.


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> 
> Garnett's 7'0, Bender is 6'11 I believe, and I'm pretty sure Tyson is 7'2- his official height was taken when he was a rookie.


tyson's official height when he was a rookie was 7'1, it was only stated this summer by jerry that he had grown to 7'2, but that wasnt an official statement seeing how he is still listed at 7'1. both bender and garnett are more athletic then tyson, they move around like guards and can creep up on players like a cat, tyson isnt like that


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> Who else can rebound on Houston?
> ...


I am not arguing the omnipotence of stats in illustrating a complete story. I have however shown that it is foolish to assert that Yao's numbers don't stack up against the NBA greats, becuase clearly they have began to. You can make a similar point about Yao's points being a slightly lower then average on the HOF center list. Did Drob, Hakeem, or Shaq have a scorer like Stevie Francise on their team (especially one who dominated the ball as much as him)? I cant remember any. Lets also remember that neither Hakeem, Zoe or Drob were exactly going to powerhouses when they were drafted. 

You cant rely on stats to tell the whole truth, but right now they are making the case that Yao is legit.l


----------



## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

*might be a tad OT*

but Yao's fan club is defintely bigger than Jay's.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47796-2002Dec12.html

"On an average weeknight last month, a National Basketball Association game between two strong teams drew a television audience of about 1.1 million households in the United States. On Nov. 20, a Wednesday morning broadcast of a game between the Houston Rockets and one of the league's worst teams, the Cleveland Cavaliers, pulled in 5.5 million viewers in China; another 11.5 million tuned in for a repeat of the game at night."

that sounds insane. i wonder how many people tuned into watch mj's bulls in the states...


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> I am not arguing the omnipotence of stats in illustrating a complete story. I have however shown that it is foolish to assert that Yao's numbers don't stack up against the NBA greats, becuase clearly they have began to. You can make a similar point about Yao's points being a slightly lower then average on the HOF center list. Did Drob, Hakeem, or Shaq have a scorer like Stevie Francise on their team (especially one who dominated the ball as much as him)? I cant remember any. Lets also remember that neither Hakeem, Zoe or Drob were exactly going to powerhouses when they were drafted.
> ...



Shaq was drafted after Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott and
just before Penny hardaway all three of whom were 
scorers first and distributors second. Shaq was also
drafted the yr before the late brian Williams, though I can't
find what stats BW had after Shaq arrived.

Hakeem joined a team with Ralph Sampson. Sampson averaged 22 and 10.4, Hakeem's first season in the league (had to share some bds).

DRob didn't join SA becuase of his NAvy committment until '89, the yr Sean Elliot was drafted, though Elliot really didn't start to be really productive until his secnd year.

So either you're too young to remember, to old and have altzheimer's or simply have a bad memory.

Hakeem was a first pick, DRob was a first pick, both players led their teams deep in to the NCAA's when the NCAA's were good and full of big man prior to the rookie pay scale and contracts.

Zo was the second pick in his draft class...all three were expected to be power houses when they were drafted....


As for college today and the value of that experience, there really aren't any good big men who go to college anymore.

Who's the top 5 in college this yr? Marcus or D.Harrison????

Think that just about sums it up as to the quality of bigs in college these days....no reason to wait when biggins can get guaranteed contracts that will expire when these players are younger....


ON a different note, Ming against kandi tonight.

Will be interesting to see this match-up. Also will be interesting to see how many bds Ming gets competting against both Elton and Kandi.


----------



## Potatoe (Jun 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ha aren't you the same guy that waxed poetic all summer about how long it would take Yao to have an impact at this level.

Now that he's doing well it's because his wealth of experience and the team he plays on.

Will you say anything to try and discredit this player?

Spell it with me zetec....

A-G-E-N-D-A


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Potatoe</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Potatoe, yes I was wrong about him doing so well so early.
he's a better player than what I saw watching the worlds

But that doesn't change what I've seen thus far.
He'll not be all world or a super star IMO, but he'll be very good.

Why does this assessment upset you so? 
I'm not calling him a bust, and he's much better than
I gave him credit....but according to you if
i don't buy into the hyperbole, i some how have alterior motives?
That's plain asinine,

Aside from one nice move thus far against the Clips, tonight he's even less impressive than he was last night. Houston has been using a zone with ming in becuase he really can't guard either Kandi or brand who are both getting a lot of bds on both ends of the court...

So first learn to spell my alias z..t..e..c..t (not zetec)
before you even try to propound your somewhat inane theory
about having an agenda or give any other spelling lessons.


thanks in advance


----------



## Potatoe (Jun 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No he is not a better player than you saw in the worlds, he was great in the worlds, you were simply being far to critical of him, just like you are now.

I can just see you sitting there watching the Clips game writing down every single mistake that Yao makes...

"Oh Yao wont be a star because he forgot to box out at one point in the 3rd quarter"

"Oh Yao tried the same post move twice in a row, this incredible lack of creativity will stop Yao from ever being anything special"

Yet "your boy" Eddie Curry gets a free pass despite the fact that he hasn't improved a lick since his rookie year.

Like I said,,,

AGENDA...

I called you on your clear lack of objectivity during the summer and right now you are doing exactly the same thing.

Back then it was he will take ages to adjust and won't make an impact right away. And lets not forget how you said he wouldn't play the 5 because he was 2 weak to play inside. Oh yea and how about the fact that his body type was such that he would never be able to get strong enough to hold down his position in the post.

Now it's he's only making an impact because his vast Pro experience. He's only getting rebounds because Houston doesn't have any good rebounders. He is only scoring because teams haven't figured out how to handle him. And of course he is a big time liability because he is so poor on jump balls (smile).

Clearly you do not have the ability to be objective about this player and thus your opinion simply isn't relevant.

Sorry


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

Your summary is totally asinine.

If I have an "agenda" please tell me what it is.

EC doesn't get a 'free pass". I just don't expect that much from him YET. Comparing high schoolers who should go through a minor league system to foriegners is just plain silly. Jermaine is the classic example. he learned his fundamentals in the league...not in a professional league with older players. 

No Ming didn't play as well at the Worlds. Playing for the Chinese team, he didn't have Stevie Frnchise breaking down the defense for him. The quality of the players he played with took a lot away from his quality of play. And yes at the worlds, Antonio Davis and Ben Wallace pushed him around in the paint. Against germany, yao looked especially awful.

I still don't think he'll be a dominant center akin to Shaq or Wilt. These two are unique. Yao still doesn't have their body type. But I have changed my opinion of how he had can contribute and be a quality player though as a different style of center more akin to a Rik Smits, or Sabonis then the overpowering 5.

Contrary to your asinine assumptions, I don't preform opinions about players, or look for their faults to fulfill any hypothesis of any sort.

Now onto the game, tonight houston started out in a zone in the first quarter, and Ming didn't match up well when he tried to rotate against either brand or Kandi. In the first quarter , Ming offesnively didn't do very much. He made two shots. One , which is becoming recognized as "his move", and another nice post move which were some skills of his in the pivot I hadn't seen before. his primary responsility it seemed on offense was to draw Kandi out of the lane for either Francis or Mobley to drive to the basket..

Ming got one foul, and got a huge break in the first quarter on a second call that was clearly his that was given to G.Rice. Houston, then took out Ming and put in Cato until about the 6:30 minute mark of the second quarter. During this time, I exclusively watched the Bulls game. When Ming came back in, he was much more assertive and played much better. he played with much more aggression than what I had seen the night before. he had a little fire or "attitude". He also made a couple really nice passes, and a couple more good post moves. Relative to Kandi, yao's moves appeared more fluid and less mechanical than his moves had appeared the night before against Pau.

Houston also switched to a man to man, and yao played well against kandi, but his guarding of kandi left yao frequently out of position to rebound. brand got a number of offensive put backs.
Yao sveral times was fighting to deny Kandi position, and while doing so became completely oblivious to A .Miller driving to the basket. Again Yao had a lot of problems rotating to help on a quick guard's penetration.

Yao altered some shots becuase of his lenght, but when he jumped to block, his poor jumping wasn't quick enough to get the shot. yao again also got the benift of some calls. Wang drove the baseline on one play, and Ming was no where close to establishing position, but Wang got called for the charge. Wang just shook his head. When Kandi was back in , on three occasions, Ming in an effort to rebound came down all over Kandi's back and almost knocked Kandi down. Kandi still got the boards but no calls. Finally in the 2nd half after one of these plays, Kandi- out of frustration- got a technical after practically being knocked over when yao came down on top of him.

According to the announcers, Houston Rocket games are viewed by 15 million Chinese households, which is way more than the 4 mill that watched the NBA finals. Not having Ming in the game, with two fouls, foul trouble, or fouling out obviously wouldn't help these tv ratings. These non calls or bad calls weren't even close. 

Regardless, Ming did show some real "flashes" of talent in the paint. If these become more prevalent, than he really could become a top center...not one in the NBA pantheon of great centers, but maybe in the third or fourth tier of centers who played the game.


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Potatoe</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


correct me if im wrong, but didnt ztec project ming to play SMALL FORWARD?  boy that was far off.


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> No Ming didn't play as well at the Worlds.


didnt ming win some award or get named on the ALL-Tournament team or what not? im not sure but i swear he did while none of the Americans got awarded.


----------



## Wishbone (Jun 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 
> 
> correct me if im wrong, but didnt ztec project ming to play SMALL FORWARD?  boy that was far off.


actually -- that was ME.

I remember quipping a week or two before the draft -- If Houston were to take Jay, and trade him off somewhere, that Krause would draft Yao -- 

and that he would play SF on offense, and play back in the zone on D.

so don't go blaming Ztect for that one!


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Wishbone</b>!
> 
> 
> actually -- that was ME.
> ...


thanks for clearing that up


----------



## crash2002 (Dec 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yao was doubled by kandiman and brand 
And kandiman7 pts 3/11 4pf, yao 5/9 16pts .
Yao &kandiman
1.Yao gets ball low in the right post, pivots right toward the baseline like he's going to shoot his fallaway jumper. OLOWOKANDI BITES BIG TIME AND LEAVES HIS FEET TO BLOCK THE SHOT, but Yao pivots again to his left, leans toward the basket AS OLOWOKANDI FLIES PAST HIM, THEN CHANGES HIS SHOT IN MID-AIR AS HE SENSES ANOTHER CLIPPER COMING OVER TO BLOCK IT, AND BANKS IT OFF THE GLASS FOR THE DEUCE! INCREDIBLE SHOT!! 
2. From Tao's favorite spot on the left sideYao has Olowokandi guarding him again. This time he fakes left, but Olowokandi doesn't bite like last time. Then Yao pivots and goes up for his shot....and this time Olowokandi jumps to block it...BUT NO, IT'S ANOTHER FAKE, AND HE FALLS INTO YAO FOR THE FOUL
Yao has so many moves, he's got The Kandiman flustered! 

3.Michael Olowokandi curls around Yao along the baseline and tries a scoop shot from underneath the backboard. But Yao holds his ground well, doesn't try to jump to block the shot, and is able to deflect the shot for the rejection. Elton Brand gets the rebound and tries to put up a shot, but Yao is there to make him arc it higher than he wanted, and Yao gets the rebound. Great sequence for the Eraser in the middle.
4.Olowokandi gets the ball, ironically, in Yao's favorite spot. He tries one of Yao's trademarked fallaway jumpers from the edge of the free throw line, but Yao is able to tip the ball for the block!


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>crash2002</b>!
> 
> yao was doubled by kandiman and brand
> And kandiman7 pts 3/11 4pf, yao 5/9 16pts .
> ...



My initial comment was during the first quarter. I ammended it after the second quarter. Almost all of the moves you referred to were after the first quarter. He had about 4 or 5 drives that were were really impressive where he create his own shot in the post with moves.

Also didn't see 3 or 4. Brand had 1 shot blocked by ming, and 1 altered that I saw, but brand also had a number of offensive put backs. Brand's line was 16 bds including 7 offensive boards. kandi also had 10 bds. Yao had 9 bds . Houston got outrebounded by 8 bds. On many defensive stands after Houstonwent man to man in the seocnd quarter, Yao was fighting to deny Kandi postion in the post. Actually this was partially good, becuase I have never seen yao play so phyically. But while yao was doing this, Andre Miller was running whereever he wanted to in the lane and along the baseline, and had absolutely no problem getting to the basket with a 7'6 player on the opposing team. Andre was 10 of 15 for the game. Why did Andre shoot 66%? Becuase all of his points were at the rim. Yao had the same problem with Jason Williams the night before. Yao from what I've seen thus far just lacks the lateral quickness (like many of the more athletic 7 fter's in the league including TC) to be a good help defender. there was one move where Andre practically broke Ming's ankles, which opened up the baseline, and led to a very easy basket.


Anyway, Kandi was more flustered (actually upset) becuase Ming kept coming down on his back and not getting called for any fouls. After the third time this happened, even though Kandi got the board, kandi got a technical. Ming also ran into Kandi once, and Kandi got called for the foul. 

Ming in the box score ended up with only two fouls, but if you're really objective...Ming should have fouled out. In addition to the 2 he received, there was the one that got given to Rice. The Block on Wang. 3 over the backs. Plus the one more where he ran into Kandi and Kandi got the foul.

In reality, Ming probably would have had to sit down after picking up two quick fouls on the foul that even Ray Charles could see was his that got given to Rice.

Again if Ming got the same treatment as his fellow countryman Bateer, EC or a number of other players new to the league, he really wouldn't have the opporunities I've seen thus far and there would also be about 15 mil fans home in China who'd be very dissappointed not getting to see Yao play.


----------



## crash2002 (Dec 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...








OKEY,Tell me why yao just got 3 blocks?he should got 5 blocks. 2 on kandi ,1 on miller, 1 on brand,1 on wang?

now imo, yao is 2st best C .it is so early to say he will be the next wilt,just wait and see.
If bulls keep Brand,then pick yao!
God,the next dynasty is coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>crash2002</b>!
> 
> OKEY,Tell me why yao just got 3 blocks?he should got 5 blocks. 2 on kandi ,1 on miller, 1 on brand,1 on wang?


He should got 5 blocks? if Yao could actually jump he should have gotten 5 blocks. but Yao can't jump.



> now imo, yao is 2st best C .it is so early to say he will be the next wilt,just wait and see.
> If bulls keep Brand,then pick yao!
> God,the next dynasty is coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


This is the type of hyperbole that tends to make me more objective. Though in a league where Dirk and A.Davis were listed as All Star centers in the league last season though neither really is a 5, it really doesn't take too much to be a top 5, 5 in the league w. number 1 being Shaq. A

The next Wilt? You obviously never watched Wilt play. Wilt was dominant, though couldn't shoot FT's (like Shaq). Yao gets a large percentage of his points from the FT line, and a number on put backs. Yao's more opportunistic than dominant. he wasn't dominant at all the last two games I saw him.


----------



## crash2002 (Dec 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> He should got 5 blocks? if Yao could actually jump he should have gotten 5 blocks. but Yao can't jump.
> ...


Wilt? so early!Just for fun!
yao cant jump? how about 32 inches?
if yao 's leaping ability=kG
he will eat shaq alive now.
I appreciated ur objective option,keep it


----------



## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

I'd like to know a Center that doesn't get a good percentage of their points from put backs?


----------



## crash2002 (Dec 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> I'd like to know a Center that doesn't get a good percentage of their points from put backs?



Franchise and mobley's ISO play show.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>crash2002</b>!
> 
> 
> Wilt? so early!Just for fun!
> ...


No Yao can't jump any where near as well as KG.
Yao is also a slow jumper. Slow to react. Losing
jump balls is only the most obvious manifestation
of this limitation of Yao. If yao had hops and timing,
he'd be a real force. Some plyometrics and some weight
training will probably help, but some of these 
physical attributes, you're born witth or not.

Yao eating up Shaq is just plain silly talk.

It will be very interesting to see the officiating in their first
match up though, since Shaq (like Jordan) is one of the star players who gets preferential treatment on many calls.

If the officials let them play, not making calls on either player,
Shaq will not be stoppable.

What's really interesting from watching these past two games,
and witnessing the diplomatic immunity given to Yao is that
I've never seen a first year player get these calls and non-calls. Stars, yes. Jordan , yes. First year,rookies? Never.

The league is notorious for wanting to keep certain players,
typically All Stars (big draws who heighten tv ratings), on
the floor. When a player like yao brings a whole new demographic
to the league, and his games away are sell-outs, those 15 mil watching his games, and those people contributing to the sell-outs, won't be as enthusiatic if he got a quick hook after picking up his second foul in the first q..

If Yao got the foul given to Rice that was clearly Yao's in the first quarter, and got the blatant over the back fouls, his stats at the end of the game would be a lot less impressive. He'd also play a lot more tentatively, be more careful not to pick up fouls.

Last season, I created The "Eddy Award", this award was for when Eddy would pick up his second (usually ticky-tack) foul and have to go to the bench. If EC got the lattitude given to Yao, EC, TC and many other players could be a lot more aggressive, less hesitant and put up much better stats.

Now everyone is going to write (especially the Yao fanatics) that I have some sort of agenda or that "conspirancies theories" are nuts, but if they OBJECTIVELY and HONESTLY watched the past two games, they would have to admit that the league wants Yao on the court and thus the referees are giving him a lot of breaks that are typically reserved for star players, not rookies.

However, the problem with "believers" and "fanatics" is that they lose any sense of objectivity.


----------



## RoRo (Aug 21, 2002)

yao ming may get preferrential treatment, but he doesn't act like he deserves it. he rarely complains to refs or tries to stare them down if he feels like they blew a call. he just shuts up and plays ball (language barrier helping him out here). when it comes down to it refs are people too and if you show them respect they will too. and what about that other rookie Amare Stoudemire, he plays an aggresive style of basketball - yet somehow he's able to get big minutes and produce as well (29mins, 8.6 boards, 10.5 pts). are the refs out to make him the next big star too? and why doesn't the nba use the power of the refs to run undesireable players out of the league? that would seem like a better abuse of their power especially in light of all the wife-beating, pot smoking while speeding, spitting on players, insulting fans that are going on. in short, yao can't control what the refs do so there's no point in holding him responsible for that. the fact is with the playing time he has had he's been fantastic. the majority of the fans out there agree and so do a lot of the players and coaches.


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!

"Shaq was drafted after Nick Anderson, Dennis Scott and
just before Penny hardaway all three of whom were 
scorers first and distributors second. Shaq was also
drafted the yr before the late brian Williams, though I can't
find what stats BW had after Shaq arrived."


Dude, Steve Francis. Steve Francis, the ultimate ball hog/scorer. Are you comparing Nick Anderson and D Scott to Steve Francis (let alone Cat Mobley etc..). You are not going to win this arguement-- give up.


"Hakeem joined a team with Ralph Sampson. Sampson averaged 22 and 10.4, Hakeem's first season in the league (had to share some bds).
DRob didn't join SA becuase of his NAvy committment until '89, the yr Sean Elliot was drafted, though Elliot really didn't start to be really productive until his secnd year."


I forgot how good Sampson was-- You seem to agree with me about DRob.


"So either you're too young to remember, to old and have altzheimer's or simply have a bad memory."


Its alzheimers not altzheimers, .***Please refrain from personal insults-Louie*** , and I must have it because I dont understand what the crap you are trying to proove with the rest of your post.

You were the one who claimed Yao's exerience level was comperable to that of Drobs, and Hawkeem's four years in college. I was the one who was saying that it was going to take him longer to develop because he didn't have a summer and the CBA is nowhere near the level of the NCAA. It seems like you had difficulty trying to support your stand so you switched over to mine


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> Dude, Steve Francis. Steve Francis, the ultimate ball hog/scorer. Are you comparing Nick Anderson and D Scott to Steve Francis (let alone Cat Mobley etc..). You are not going to win this arguement-- give up.


'Dude" w/o Francis breaking down the defense for him, yao wouldn't get that many opportunities. "Dude", Dennis Scott and Nick Anderson were both very good shooters who took a lot LOT of shots. All three players, Francis, Anderson and Scott helped big players out by either breaking down the defense or spreading out the the defense with 3 pt shooting 



> You were the one who claimed Yao's exerience level was comperable to that of Drobs, and Hawkeem's four years in college.


I never wrote this. this is your mistaken interpretation of what I wrote.

I wrote prior to the rookie pay scale (which encourages players to come out) players from the NCAA's routinely came into the league and made big impacts their rookie yrs.

I wrote his preparation prepared him more for the league than that of high schoolers who make the jump.

During the draft, I wrote that Pau Gasol came better prepared to the league becuase the European league were more competitive than the CBA.

I stick by all three of those statements

If Spain represented a whole new huge demographic that would be attracted to the NBA, and Pau thus got the preferential calls, he, like any other player, would be putting up much better numbers.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>RoRo</b>!
> yao ming may get preferrential treatment, but he doesn't act like he deserves it. he rarely complains to refs or tries to stare them down if he feels like they blew a call. he just shuts up and plays ball (language barrier helping him out here).


... 

For one, why would Yao complain?


He's the one who is benefitting from the non-calls
or calls that should be going against him going to his
teammates or the opposing players.

When Wang drove the baseline, and yao jumped
in front of him, yet got the charge instead of being
called for the obvious block, Wang shook his
head in complete disbelief. I mean this call wasn't even close.
Wang didn't drop a shoulder, or hook or anything.
Yao's feet were still moving , and he came no where 
close to getting position.

So why would Yao complain to the ref, if Wang got
charge w/. an offensive foul that clearly was a blocking foul?

This occurred in the second quarter,, and should have 
been Ming's third foul that is if he was left on the floor
after picking up the second foul of his that was given
to Glen Rice.



> in short, yao can't control what the refs do so there's no point in holding him responsible for that. the fact is with the playing time he has had he's been fantastic. the majority of the fans out there agree and so do a lot of the players and coaches.


Never said yao getting calls was his fault or under his control. But he wouldn't be out there putting up stats if he wasn't getting preferential treatment. Heck he'd be on the bench, and wouldn't be able to get the minutes becuase of foul problems.

Getting calls thus allows him to play less tentatively.

The Bulls toddlers play very tentatively becuase they're
so fearful of getting fouls. Most of the fouls called on these
two are ticky tack tack ones. Not only do these two not
represent a whole new basketball demographic attracted to the
game, they represent players that the league would like
to discourage from entering the league so young.
(I really haven't had a chance to watch Amare play
so I really don't know how he's used by the Suns
and what if any calls he is or isn't getting).

Overtime, hopefully a lot of this nonsense will balance out.

As for what others think, unlike some people who post
here, I chose to think for myself.


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

My bad-- I went back and re-read your original post concerning this and I made a mistake.

I agree with you on Yao having the experience edge verse High schoolers. This fact was reiterated during the Lebron vs. Oak Hill game(and it was only Lebron who won that game).

James didn't play any defense and it just didn't matter. It made me realize why EC is having such difficulty adjusting. Oak Hill is as close to a college team as it gets... I think the stat line was four of their players are going D1. This dosent even consider the fact that they probably have a number of underclassmen and JR's on their team that also could play D1 if they were graduating. Oak hill was running pro and college style half court sets (I even saw one formation that looked like a simple version of the triangle). Yet, it didn't matter that Lebron wasn't getting back and covering his man. The pro game might as well be from a different planet.

I still must disagree about Francis. Yes Francis creates points for Ming when he drives and hands the ball off, but he is such a hog. I am sure he has taken away just as many points as he has given. Not the type of player I would want playing pg for my team.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> My bad-- I went back and re-read your original post concerning this and I made a mistake.
> 
> I agree with you on Yao having the experience edge verse High schoolers. This fact was reiterated during the Lebron vs. Oak Hill game(and it was only Lebron who won that game).
> ...


Francis is a S-PG (shooting point guard) not a PG. 
B. Davis, Marbury and yes, JWill are more SPG's than PG's

So with jWill you actually have one on "your" team if your team is the Bulls

Would Yao get many more opportunities w. marbury, Rose, Pierce, Iverson, Kobe or any number of other players in the league?


Almost any big man in the league is better with a throw back pass first PG like Kidd.....but there aren't that many Kidd's in the league though their are now quite a few kids on the court...who in my opinion really should be in a minor league system akin to what hockey and baseball have.


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> Francis is a S-PG (shooting point guard) not a PG.
> ...


Offtopic: Not that any of this has been on topic,

I watched an NBDL game the other day between two of the better teams in the league. The scheming, ball control, and maturity was definitely worse then the Oak Hill game. I like the theory of a developmental legue, but good god the one that exists suck.

More off topic: JWill was a shooting pg at Duke but now is being asked to be a Kidd style point guard-- hence the fact that he is struggling... that and he is short.

Even more off topic: Its time for the Wiz to make michael Jordan their pg. He basically has the same skill set as JKIDD: Crafty as hell; solid D; tall but with solid ball skills; incredible vision; not much of a jump shot anymore. 

The two plaer's skill sets are very similar right now. If someone could convince MJ to lead through his distribution rather then his shooting the Wiz could really make hay.


----------



## crash2002 (Dec 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> ...
> 
> For one, why would Yao complain?
> ...


Grizzlies &Rockets 12/13

Francis drives the lane from the left side and goes in for a difficult reverse layup, but in trying to lay the ball in off the glass he misses the iron completely. However, Yao (as always) has great position and gets the rebound cleanly and goes up for a shot. But Grizzly Lorenzen Wright slides his leg under Yao to throw him off balance, AND AS YAO IS FALLING TO THE FLOOR AND A FEW INCHES BEFORE HIS RUMP MAKES CONTACT, HE PUTS UP A SHOT...AND IT GOES IN!!!! UNBELIEVABLE!! What a great show of upper body stength to get this shot off from 3 feet off the floor. BUT THEN THE REFS WAVE IT OFF SAYING HE WAS FOULED BEFORE THE SHOT, AND THE BASKET DOESN'T COUNT!! That's B.S.! Yao was fouled in the act of shooting, so should be rewarded with the bucket and an extra free throw.


----------



## rynobot (Oct 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>crash2002</b>!
> 
> Grizzlies &Rockets 12/13
> 
> Francis drives the lane from the left side and goes in for a difficult reverse layup, but in trying to lay the ball in off the glass he misses the iron completely. However, Yao (as always) has great position and gets the rebound cleanly and goes up for a shot. But Grizzly Lorenzen Wright slides his leg under Yao to throw him off balance, AND AS YAO IS FALLING TO THE FLOOR AND A FEW INCHES BEFORE HIS RUMP MAKES CONTACT, HE PUTS UP A SHOT...AND IT GOES IN!!!! UNBELIEVABLE!! What a great show of upper body stength to get this shot off from 3 feet off the floor. BUT THEN THE REFS WAVE IT OFF SAYING HE WAS FOULED BEFORE THE SHOT, AND THE BASKET DOESN'T COUNT!! That's B.S.! Yao was fouled in the act of shooting, so should be rewarded with the bucket and an extra free throw.


If that basket would have counted it would have been one of the top plays of the week, still is IMO.


----------



## crash2002 (Dec 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>rynobot</b>!
> 
> 
> If that basket would have counted it would have been one of the top plays of the week, still is IMO.


Grant simply tackling him every time down. grant actually fouled out mid-way through the second-quarter but the refs didn't catch up until overtime.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>crash2002</b>!
> 
> Grant simply tackling him every time down. grant actually fouled out mid-way through the second-quarter but the refs didn't catch up until overtime.


Grant didn't "tackle" yao.

This is total and complete nonsense.

Grant kept Yao from establishing position down low.
When Yao caught the ball further out, Miami double teamed
him w. Malik Allen or a guard to prevent him from pivoting.
When Yao brought the ball down, yao got stripped
of the ball. Yao actually fell down a couple of times.

Yao just has to hit the weight room hard during the off season,
so he doesn't get pushed around so easily. 
Grant putting a body on
him was reminescent of the play I saw this summer against
A.Davis and Big Ben. Shaq's going to absolutely run over him

Watched the first half, where Yao just had 5 and 2 on one basket.
Didn't watch too much of the second half, where yao gots some stats. During the first half and what I saw of the second half, Yao was left behind on fast breaks, and didn't get back on defense a few times....some of this seemed due to lack of conditioning, more seemed to do with lack of speed. Not a knock, since very few big men have the ability to keep up w. Stevie and Mobley. TC may be one of the few exceptions.

Anyway, other teams are going to take note of how Grant defended Yao (rendering him ineffective in the first half) 
and will probably start playing him the same way.....
so get use to Yao being "tackled" quite a bit.


----------



## Potatoe (Jun 17, 2002)

Yup spread the word....

Brian Grant held Yao Ming to 15 points (83% FG's), 12 boards, and 5 blocks,,,,

The gig is up (smile)..


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Potatoe</b>!
> Yup spread the word....
> 
> Brian Grant held Yao Ming to 15 points (83% FG's), 12 boards, and 5 blocks,,,,
> ...


He's definitely a bust... now I know why Stevie Francis won't pass to him...


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Potatoe</b>!
> Yup spread the word....
> 
> Brian Grant held Yao Ming to 15 points (83% FG's), 12 boards, and 5 blocks,,,,
> ...


Mr. potatoe-head, obviously you didn't watch the first half of the game

If you did, you'd have seen how completely ineffective yao was.
He fell over a few times. he couldn't run the court. He couldn't get position

Though you seem to think you can deduce everything from reading the box score without watching the game.

Great method of analysis

and btw the way, when matched up against a 6'8/6'9
center (a 9 to 10 inch advantage) 2 bds in the first half
is pitiful, and 12 for the game really isn't that impressive-

Cato got 9 in 12 minutes whereas Yao needed 41mins to get 12


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> 
> He's definitely a bust... now I know why Stevie Francis won't pass to him...


Stevie Francis is why houston wins games.

Yao can't even get down the court quick enough for Stevie to pass to him


----------



## crash2002 (Dec 14, 2002)

ztect

I begin to belive:" u r a Yao_hater".
Did you watch the game?????
Miami's strategy is"
To contend with Yao by grappling and attempting to throw or immobilize him."


----------



## crash2002 (Dec 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Potatoe</b>!
> Yup spread the word....
> 
> Brian Grant held Yao Ming to 15 points (83% FG's), 12 boards, and 5 blocks,,,,


+ Grant's 6fouls(ought to be 12+ fouls)


----------



## Potatoe (Jun 17, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> Mr. potatoe-head, obviously you didn't watch the first half of the game
> ...


Are you for real?

So now your criticizing him for having a bad first half in a game where he had fantastic second half and thus a good over all game?

What is your deal?

Did you catch Yao ming peeing on your tire one morning or something?

It MUST be something like that because the asinine things that you criticize him for become more bizarre with each passing day.

The kid is a MONTH AND A HALF into his NBA career......


----------



## shoprite (Dec 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Potatoe</b>!
> 
> The kid is a MONTH AND A HALF into his NBA career......


True, and he already outplays opponent's centers consistently.


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Potatoe</b>!
> 
> 
> 1) [Ztect] Are you for real?
> ...


1) My guess is no. We are suckers and Ztect is baiting us.

Actually the thing that impressed me most about the Heat game was Yao's physical play. No he didn't play a great game in the first half, but he wasn't taking any crap when Brian Grant tried to muscle him around. 

I loved when Yao, knocked the head off of that heat player (I'm sorry I don't remember who it was) when he tried to drive the lane in the forth. Yao was quick to pick him up so he wouldn't get called for the T, but you could tell. Ming had taken enough and now he was dealing. Shaq territory, not Bradley...

There are a million different things that can derail an all-star career, but as of right now Yao is on the path.

2) Actually, that was me.


----------



## johnston797 (May 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> and btw the way, when matched up against a 6'8/6'9
> center (a 9 to 10 inch advantage) 2 bds in the first half
> is pitiful, and 12 for the game really isn't that impressive-


For C's in the league, could you provide a chart listing various reach advantages and the appropriate number or rebounds per half required to be impressive. For example, with a 4 to 5 in advantage, would at least 6 rebounds per half be impressive?  

OT: _Is this possible on this thread?_ Don't future Ming scouting reports belong on the Rockets board or the NBA board?


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

You guys are a riot.

Can't critically evaluate Yao's game, because Chariman Yao
is the greatest center to ever play the game.

All bow down to Chariman Yao

Chariman Yao is beyond criticism.

Chairman Yao is going to be a superstar.
Forget that nonsense, Chairman Yao already is a supestar.
Chairman Yao never makes any fouls
Chariman Yao never gets any breaks, whenever
Chairman Yao falls all over the back of another player,it is clearly that other player's fault for getting in Chairman Yao's way
Chairman Yao whenever he gets bodied get fouled

Forget Wilt, forget Shaq, Forget Kareem, yao will be the 
greatest ever!!!!!

Hooray for Chairman Yao.....

Anyone critical of Chairman Yao, could not only not be "real",
but should be interned in a "re-education" camp. If any said
critic should remain critical after the camp, than said offender
shall be designated a "Yao hater" and summarily be shot
without any due process.

'nuff said.


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>C.C.C.P</b>!
> 
> I loved when Yao, knocked the head off of that heat player (I'm sorry I don't remember who it was) when he tried to drive the lane in the forth. Yao was quick to pick him up so he wouldn't get called for the T, but you could tell. Ming had taken enough and now he was dealing. Shaq territory, not Bradley...


OUCH! i saw that, caron butler tried to make yao look like erick chenowith but yao stuffed butler big time and knocked him to the ground, and it wasnt just some weak dunk attempt, butler got high off the ground for a _power_ dunk but got embarrased.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

With that said, 

the Yao I've watched closely over the past two games
has been, at times, spectacular, mediocre, average,
hard to defend, easy to defend, moved well (for someone 7'6),
and not run the floor well or move well laterally.

He has also been the beneficiary of a tremendous number of 
non-calls and calls that went the other way, that Stevie Wonder
could see that he got preferential treatment on becuase theNBA clearly wants to see their new BIG DRAW on the floor
rather than on the bench with foul problems.

if he got called for half the fouls, I saw that weren't called
or went the other way, Yao's numbers would be very
similar to Eddy Curry's or maybe even worse.

All this hype is that either of people prideful of one 
of their own (which is great becuase this is a whole
ne waudience drawn to the game) or people just
not looking objectively or honestly at Yao's play.

Will Yao be a very good player, of course he will.
Will he be a "great player" or star, flashes suggest yes
but this can be said of most players.

Don't even know the guy to "hate" him. have no opinion 
of him personally, just the skills I've seen displayed

So time will tell, not non-objective zealots on a message boards
or even hypster broadcasters on tv.

Mass media though for some seems like mass brainwashing creating people uncapable of thinking for themselves.

Regardless, Time to get all the non-belivers and dissenters to the re-education camps!!!

All these dissenters will get to eat is potatoEs!


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> You guys are a riot.
> 
> Can't critically evaluate Yao's game, because Chariman Yao
> ...




i wont say ztec is racist but what other theory can one come up with as to why such garbage is spewed against a guy like ming , i see no reason why someone should hate ming(ztec apparently does), 

in the summer z posted something about some puerto rican scrub in the World Championships like he actually had a chance in the NBA(where is that guy now?) but cant give ming his props. sad sad sad. 

its not even worth debating with people with such an agendas against decent people like yao.

and then he keeps reverting to his only sad defense "why is it that when you dont declare yao ming as GOD himself then you get labeled a hater?" keep it up Z! we love it 

Chairmen Yao loves it too. :|


----------



## crash2002 (Dec 14, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JOHNNY_BRAVisimO</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i saw atleast 3 times that grant clearly knocked yao over and no whistle was blown. the camera was on rudy one time and he did the classic arms in the air pace on the sideline. no question they were past being legal but yao was getting back at em by the second half.It is a shame that NBA Refs let this kind of stuff happen on the court. I am not against physical game, but there has to be some kinds of level bar set up there to prevent the game from becoming the boxing match.(ex. hit yao in the neck)


----------



## Potatoe (Jun 17, 2002)

Just to clarify,

When I said you had an "agenda" it had nothing to do with race, I was referring to you hyping Eddy Curry as the leagues next top center.

That said I would also like to point out the fact that I never stated that Yao was the next Wilt or Shaq so you are wasting your time with that defense.

What I did say was that based on his current play it is fairly obvious that Yao is the best center prospect in the game and will very likely become an All Star.

You disagree, fine, but try and be objective in your criticism. Jude the guy based on the fact that he is a young foreign rookie who is a month and a half into his NBA career. The fact that you ripped him for not having a good half simply proves that you are not judging him as a rookie but by some other ridiculously high standards.

Anyway this is dragging so I'm out,,,

I will be back to gloat when Yao is the runaway leader for the ROY (smile).


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Potatoe</b>!
> Just to clarify,
> 
> When I said you had an "agenda" it had nothing to do with race, I was referring to you hyping Eddy Curry as the leagues next top center.



To set the record straight, I've never hyped Curry as the league's next top center. I believe he still is young, will take time for various reasons, and will be a very good player. Moreover considering the weakness of the positon, it doesn't take much to be a top center.



> You disagree, fine, but try and be objective in your criticism. Jude the guy based on the fact that he is a young foreign rookie who is a month and a half into his NBA career. The fact that you ripped him for not having a good half simply proves that you are not judging him as a rookie but by some other ridiculously high standards.


My critique until this point was on the 2 1/2 games I watched clsely, the Worlds, and some games I caught parts of watching. Not just a half.




> I will be back to gloat when Yao is the runaway leader for the ROY (smile).


If yao can play as well and as impressively as he did tonight
as what I saw during Bulls' timeouts and half time during the first 3 quarters, and what I saw watching the entire 4th quarter, then the ROY is his.

If he can consistently do this and add some strenght,
he may become a great player....not just a very good one.

Tonight he showed a variety of moves in the paint,
from a couple hooks, to a scoop shop and his turnaround.

He also had a couple moves from under the basket.

Having so many moves and such a repetoire at such a young
age was actually quite amazing. Not really a power player...
more of a finess one, but none the less he did this against
a relatively decent center in Miller. Some of his moves were
reminscent of Hakeem, others were reminescent of jabbar.

Only two calls that I saw that he got a break on. One
was a clear block where the opponent got called for 
a charge...but this gets called wrong a lot of the time
so it really wasn't that unusual.

As I wrote earlier, somewhere on this thread, if I saw
something more impressive, I could easily change my mind.
Up until watching the game tonight, I honestly wasn't
that impressed. Tonight however, I was very impressed.

I wouldn't go as far as Walton, who had to clean his
pants out from spewing so much...but Yao did 
make the most of almost all of his touches, as well
as altered a number of shots when Indiana decided
to go at him.

EC will be fortunate to ever have anywhere near this impact.
Though that doesn't mean that EC won't become a very
good player.


----------



## Louie (Jun 13, 2002)

I do think Yao has the potential to be one of the all-time great centers, but he's not really the next Wilt or Kareem- he's not really the next anybody. He's the original Yao Ming, and his game is not gonna follow anyone else's blueprint because his skills and abilities are so much different than the centers of the past. His lack of speed/ athleticism will hurt him, but there has simply never been a 7'5 player with his passing, rebounding, and scoring skills.


----------



## Ducket (Jul 16, 2002)

Did anyone catch some of those sick passes by Ming tonight? Personally I think he's the best playmaker on the team. This guy could be a 25/12/7/4/60% guy or maybe I'm just dreaming...


----------



## Tri_N (Aug 19, 2002)

Mr. Ming just owned J. O'neal and Brad Miller by scoring 29 pts, 11 boards, and 7 blocks. What about that Curry comparison again, Ztect? Your argument last time of him facing poor competition might tread some water but as of right now, O'Neal and B. Miller aren't scrubs. He just completely dominated the Pacers frontcourt today. Give the man his prop and stop giving us this bs about the refs letting Ming getting away with fouls. The only reason that I can think for why you're reluctant was because maybe you're a racist who hates to see an Asian dominating an American sport.


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Louie</b>!
> I do think Yao has the potential to be one of the all-time great centers, but he's not really the next Wilt or Kareem- he's not really the next anybody. He's the original Yao Ming, and his game is not gonna follow anyone else's blueprint because his skills and abilities are so much different than the centers of the past. His lack of speed/ athleticism will hurt him, but there has simply never been a 7'5 player with his passing, rebounding, and scoring skills.


Until tonight, I wouldn't have agreed with you.

Though, he gets a lot of boards, he could still improve his rebounding. Houston plays w. a small back court, a 
perimeter drifting SF, and a reed thin PF (or an undersized one).

When Cato came in, he got a ton of bds very quickly.
So the compostion of the team still inflates Yao's totals.
With some time in the weight room, yao should actually
become a much better rebounder, though ironically
w. a good boarding SF in Posey (who Houston just added)
and a bulkier PF , Yao may improve his boarding skills
yet have fewer bds on his stat line.

Power type centers also aren't good analogies...
I really see no Wilt, Moses or Shaq in his game
but I do see some Hakeem, Jabbar, Sabonis and Smits
in his game. Pretty much every new player is some
combination of the players who've preceded him.
A combo of hakeem, Jabbar, Sabonis and Smits
is a pretty interesting and decent combination.


----------



## Old School (Dec 17, 2002)

*Comparisons with EC and TC*

I'm a Bulls fan living in NYC (originally from Illinois). I too love the potential of EC and TC, but man, they are nothing compared to Yao Ming, and it isn't just because they haven't played organized ball outside of HS for as long as Yao has. He's a better shooter, passer, and defender (because of his size). 

I remember Mariotti and Sam Smith being so happy that Krause got the second pick and not the first so he couldn't "screw up" and ACTUALLY TAKE MING. What a bunch of idiots. Mariotti still can't admit it.

To be a championship team, you have to have one of the top three players in the league, plus another super-All Star to ride shotgun to win. Magic, Bird, Isiah, MJ/Pip, Akeem, Shaq/Kobe. Ming could potentially be in that category while TC and EC probably won't be (though they'll be solid).

To me it's sad that we've been so bad that the year we DO get the number one pick, it's Elton Brand who we trade for Chandler. Instead of the Rockets who get Yao. But I guess that's karma. Six rings baby. Hard to complain.


----------



## Killuminati (Jul 30, 2002)

*Re: Comparisons with EC and TC*



> Originally posted by <b>Old School</b>!
> I'm a Bulls fan living in NYC (originally from Illinois). I too love the potential of EC and TC, but man, they are nothing compared to Yao Ming, and it isn't just because they haven't played organized ball outside of HS for as long as Yao has. He's a better shooter, passer, and defender (because of his size).


I'll say it, I'll say it again: Yao is 2 years older than both EC and TC and he's played professional basketball! That means real men with real basketball skills not scrawny teenagers, trust me I played high school ball. Sure you'll have your freaks like Tyson, Amare and KG but theres few truly great high school players who get any real challenge in high school. Don't get me wrong I think Yao will be the next best center once Shaq is done but I think Chandler and yes even Curry will be a force to reckoned with once they get the game down. (TC is already on his way)


----------



## JOHNNY_BRAVisimO (Jun 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: Comparisons with EC and TC*



> Originally posted by <b>Killuminati</b>!
> 
> 
> I'll say it, I'll say it again: Yao is 2 years older than both EC and TC and he's played professional basketball! That means real men with real basketball skills not scrawny teenagers,


yao was on the Olympic team 2 years ago at the age of 19.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

OK. I'll say it, you disprove it ;-)

Yao is better than Shaq. Already.

Yep, that's right.

Yao's taller, more agile, hits free throws, shoots outside and inside with ease, dominates on defense, is a brilliant passer, has good hands, etc. If he gets the ball close to the hole, it's just as likely to be a bucket as any of Shaq's.

Shaq clearly has an unstoppable nature to him, and he's amazingly agile for a man his size/bulk. But his game is quite limited to just in the paint, for the most part.

In Yao's last 8 games, he's averaging 19.5 PPG, and 13 rebounds, 3+ blocks, 1.5 assists. He's 57-105, or .542 FG%. And he's playing 36 min/game, just like a vet. He's taking 13 shots per game.

Shaq played 67 games last year and only 14 this year. He's averaging barely over 10 reb/game over his last 8 games. He's playing about 5 more minutes/game than Yao, and taking quite a few more shots. He's averaging about 7PPG more than Yao. He's averaging a full block per game less than Yao, too.

Shaq merely has history on his side, IMO. On the floor, Yao is better right now.

My $.02


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> OK. I'll say it, you disprove it ;-)
> 
> Yao is better than Shaq. Already.
> ...


Don't know how you are, but if you had seen Shaq
play at LSU and his first few seasons in the league before
he got FAT and had foot problems, you'd probably
be a lot more hesitant to make such an assertion.

Shaq lost a lot of his mobility. When he was young, he use
to be able to run the court like a guard, and handle almost
as well as one too.

It was Shaq's incredible athleticism as well as his size
that really set him apart

At 21 yrs of age, His first season in the NBA, he averaged 23.4 & 13.9
At 22 yrs of age His sophmore season, he averaged 29.3 & 13.2 

At the same age, Shaq's consistantly put up numbers that are yao's high ones.
Shaq also played on a team with a lot more scorers his second yr as well (Hardaway,Scott, & Anderson).

Shaq became a better passer as he got older, and has never had much range.

Now this really isn't a comparison of the two, or in anyway meant to take any thing away from yao's skills, especially since these two players games are so different. But Shaq now as dominant as he is, is not at the top of his game largely due to carryng so much weight and problems with his feet.

Hopefully, Yao can also avoid the feet & knee problems that seem to plaqued players his size.


----------



## DaBullz (Jul 15, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>ztect</b>!
> 
> 
> Don't know how you are, but if you had seen Shaq
> ...


Since you ask, the first NBA game I saw in person was the New York Knicks at the Baltimore Bullets. Walt Frazier was the star of the Knicks and Earl Monroe for the Bullets. I assure you I saw Shaq as a rookie and in college.

Yao <B>IS</B> better than Shaq now. You didn't refute it, but rather talk about how Shaq used to be. 

I agree with you that it would be great to see Yao have a long and healthy career. He's going to be that much more awesome.


----------



## such sweet thunder (May 30, 2002)

Im done arguing-- now I'll just make comments,

While everyone is commenting on Yao's game no one is talking about what he has done for the team. While is has not really been reflected yet in the standings, Houstons ball is at another level. There ball movement is on its way to being playoff quality and I now have a lot more faith in the future of Steve Francis. I was convinced that he may go down as one of those, Charles Barkley type, amazing but never going to win a championship players. Ming has pushed him to share the ball and be a more complete player. If these trends continue both could be the better for it.


----------



## robert60446 (Nov 11, 2002)

Uupppsss...I’m must be in the wrong post…I thought, that we are talking here about Jay Williams and Yao Ming…


----------



## ztect (Jun 12, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>DaBullz</b>!
> 
> 
> Since you ask, the first NBA game I saw in person was the New York Knicks at the Baltimore Bullets. Walt Frazier was the star of the Knicks and Earl Monroe for the Bullets. I assure you I saw Shaq as a rookie and in college.
> ...


since they have different skill sets and are very different players comparing the two on skills alone is like comparing apples to walnuts.

so the only way to really judge the accuracy of your statement is to see how they go head to head. Shaq, even with his weight and ailments ain't no Brad Miller. It will be interesting to see how and if Yao can keep Shaq away from the basket. Yao won't have much help, unless Houston plays Yao and Cato simultaneously. It will be also interesting to see how and if Yao can get position near ennough to the basket against Shaq to be as effective as he was against Miller. It will be interesting to see how their games are called

so circle these dates on your calendar:

Jan 17th in Houston
Feb 18th in LA
March 26 in Houston


----------



## GB (Jun 11, 2002)

We missed again. Yao is the new Tim Duncan and maybe more.


----------

