# are you a euroskeptic?



## Tom (Jul 15, 2002)

these guys seem to be preaching a bit of reality to the hype

http://www.hoopshype.com/articles/euroleague_sierra.htm


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## andras (Mar 19, 2003)

I'd like to comment on this quote by the anonymous *Western Conference scout * :

_In Moscow, this player JR Holden... I think he is an unknown player for the NBA, but he has a chance to get a tryout in summer leagues and maybe training camp. I think he has the talent to play the point guard in the NBA._ 

IMHO there's absolutely no way this kid will ever be a NBA-point. 2 years ago he played for Oostende, a Belgian powerhouse, but not european elite. I saw him play there and the guy is a good scorer, but he's the prototypical SG trapped in a PG's body. He got a lot of criticism for not properly distributing the ball. (His successor, Ed Cota, did a much better job one year later)

Bottomline is: he's making okay money in Russia - Oostende couldn't afford to keep him, same for Cota - and he just isn't an interesting NBA prospect


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## starbonis (Aug 7, 2002)

I really enjoy the article, and I am european.

the major reason, why some people are so high on europeans is that at a young age, they play every week (or twice a week) against pro teams, proven vets. The competition level is awesome for them, they learn a lot and shwo their potential.

BUT, playing versus proven vets is also a major issue. I really enjoy reading Pietrus is a borderline first-rounder. I totally agree that Pietrus will play in the NBA, but he looks brillant in Europe because there aren't a lot of 2-guard with his athletics. In the NBA, every 2-guard is athletic (ok, maybe not Steve Kerr), so I don't think he has something so special that will make him a lottery pick.


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## starbonis (Aug 7, 2002)

To Andras 

J.R Holden has learn a lot in Europe, and especially in Belgium: leading a team, taking a big load on his game. He is damn fast and an average defender.

Sure he is not a prospect, but who in Europe would have think the Chucky Atkins could be back in the League after his stint in Croatia ??.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Until I see a european come into the NBA and do something besides well besides shoot ( I.E. Rebound and Defend) I will always be a skeptic. Not only for their lack of defense and unwillingness to bang in the post but also for their love of the shooting even out of position shoooting ( like Drobnjak)


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## mercury (Apr 9, 2003)

These scouts are obviously holding their knowledge close to the vest...you know...nothing here worth looking at...wink wink..telling a reporter that American rejects have NBA potential...the only one I would consider to be telling the truth was the independant scout (who believes Pietrus is ready)....yep they have a BS in BS.


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## JGKoblenz (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Until I see a european come into the NBA and do something besides well besides shoot ( I.E. Rebound and Defend) I will always be a skeptic. Not only for their lack of defense and unwillingness to but also for their love of the shooting even out of position shoooting ( like Drobnjak)


Andrei Kirilenko plays great D and knows how rebound. Pau Gasol is another exemple and loves to bang in the post. :yes:


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>JGKoblenz</b>!
> 
> 
> Andrei Kirilenko plays great D and knows how rebound. Pau Gasol is another exemple and loves to bang in the post. :yes:


Kirilenko is from russia.


Pau does not love to bang in the post, he is much to skinny for contact.


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## MemphisX (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Kirilenko is from russia.
> ...


Nah, Pau bangs in the post. He just isn't strong enough yet to bang effectively so he uses skills. Remember he is just 22, so he still has time to fill out.


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## Mr. Fong (May 9, 2003)

*NO MORE SPECULATION*

Let's end all the skepticisms right now, frankly it's down right surprising that any skeptics exists these days. Foriegn players are legit. Foriegn players (and for Big ol' Knick fan, this includes european players, let's not try to get technical and make distinctions, you're just using a loophole to avoid admitting that you're losing an argument) are the same as european players, meaning they're not from the United States and most are playing pro ball overseas before they come to the league. These guys can rebound and they can defend. Lets look at the statistics: Dirk Nowitski - 9.9 rebs, Pau Gasol - 8.8, Yao Ming - 8.2, Zydrunas Illgauskas - 7.5, Vlade Divac - 7.2, Vladimir Stepania - 7.1, Rasho Nesterovic - 6.5 
That's seven foreign players that are in the top 50 in rebounds this year. Not to mention future foriegn players that will more than likely be perenial top 50 rebounders (Nene Hilario, Andrei Kirilenko, Memhet Okur) 
Defensively, five foreign born players are in the top 20 in blocked shots. Is this surprising? It shouldn't be, foreign players are usually long and very mobile for their size. Vlade is traditionally known for defending Shaq well (relatively speaking) and Rasho did an admirable job this postseason as well. Not to mention Kirilenko is one of the most talented shot blockers I have ever seen. In terms of steals, the foriegner players don't top the charts, but that is simply becuase the guards overseas have not caught up in development yet. But this of course is changing as well, if you need proof, just take at a look at the Spurs backcourt, I don't think they're complaining. 
This is the evolution of the game, basketball is worldwide, european camps are learning from America and hopefully it will be vice versa. European players are learning the aggersive style of basketball here as we speak and in fact their already there. Darko Milicic's MO is that he's tough and nasty, likes to rough it up inside, I don't doubt this is true and if you simply looked at the statisitics you wouldn't either. 
So, let's end all the doubts, foreign players are just basketball players and good ones at that.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

*Re: NO MORE SPECULATION*



> Originally posted by <b>Mr. Fong</b>!
> Let's end all the skepticisms right now, frankly it's down right surprising that any skeptics exists these days. Foriegn players are legit. Foriegn players (and for Big ol' Knick fan, this includes european players, let's not try to get technical and make distinctions, you're just using a loophole to avoid admitting that you're losing an argument)


Did you even read the title of this thread fool? It's about European players, they have a different style and work ethic than others. That's why I listed the shooting out of position. I don't give a crap about your misconceptions and vehemence, but don't ever try to assume what I am saying, you just proved you lack the intelligence to do so by assuming to much.



> These guys can rebound and they can defend. Lets look at the statistics: Dirk Nowitski - 9.9 rebs, Pau Gasol - 8.8, Yao Ming - 8.2, Zydrunas Illgauskas - 7.5, Vlade Divac - 7.2, Vladimir Stepania - 7.1, Rasho Nesterovic - 6.5



More ignorance. Using defense and such players as Vladimir Stepania and Dirk Nowitski in the same sentence is just plain pathetic. So is lumping rebounds and defense into the same category. I forgive you if english is not your first language otherwise get a clue.



> Vlade is traditionally known for defending Shaq well (relatively speaking)


 Only by flopping and getting calls . If you were less ignorant in this subject you would have named Arvedas.

In short take your xenophobic label and shove it. I am commenting only on European players, as the title implies. Anything you read into is just your anti-american ignorance being directed at me.

Before you go shooting your mouth of do some research, and try reading the thread title. euroskeptic applies to europeans only. Why because they only shoot. That's it. They only rebound well when they are 7'0 and over because they avoid contact like the plague. They can't defend, most of the time they simply refuse to.
re-read the thread re-read my post and replace the drivel you posted with a decent argument.

Or launch yourself out a window. 

:sour:


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## Mr. Fong (May 9, 2003)

*SAD*

Sad and pathetic that you equate an acceptance of foreign BASKETBALL talent as being anti-american. This is exactly where the euroskepticism comes from, a feeling of ill-will that results from seeing non-american players filling up nba rosters. 

You're telling me that European players shy away from contact, look at Dirk, the man is tenth in the league in free throw attempts. That's blantant ignorance right there to say that. Have you ever seen the man play? He's aggressive and takes the ball to the hole with no abondonment every game. Pau Gasol is also 9th in the league in free throw attempts. He lives in the low block. 

Also, to clearify, which i shouldn't since all you have to do is read my original post, I never said Dirk or Stepania were good defenders, but to say that Dirk is a horrible defender is also playing to sterotypes, he's adequete at worst.

Oh and you would FORGIVE me if english wasn't my first language as if that would demand an appogly??? And you call me a xenophobe...ridiculous


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

*Re: SAD*



> Originally posted by <b>Mr. Fong</b>!
> Sad and pathetic that you equate an acceptance of foreign BASKETBALL talent as being anti-american. This is exactly where the euroskepticism comes from, a feeling of ill-will that results from seeing non-american players filling up nba rosters.


Wrong. You need to work on your reading comprehension level. Accept foriegn players all you want. We all do. If you had the foresight to read some of my previous posts you would know that I do. 

However unlike you, I see with my eyes and not with my emotions. European players shoot, don't defend, and don't rebound well. End of story. Statistics don't lie. Like most intelligent people I refuse to believe the hype. 

You're anti-american attitude boisters forth when I provide intelligent critiscism and you like a petualant child not only attempt to generalize my statements but speak for me. Twisting the meanings of my words into your own pathetic attempt to validate the hate inside you. It's one of the purest displays of ignorance I have seen on the net in a while.



> You're telling me that European players shy away from contact, look at Dirk, the man is tenth in the league in free throw attempts. That's blantant ignorance right there to say that. Have you ever seen the man play? He's aggressive and takes the ball to the hole with no abondonment every game. Pau Gasol is also 9th in the league in free throw attempts. He lives in the low block.


No. The ignorance is clearly coming from your end. You also realize dirk is #10 in the league in field goal attempts right. Do you understand the corerelation between those statistics? It's also important to note that the discrepancy between the two statistics is quite small, an exact opposite to someone like paul pierce who is not only the number one option on his team but leads in attempts and free thows. 


Furthermore driving to the basket is only one part of contact. The other, and generally more important for a seven footer is to hang around in the post and defend, bang, rebound and block. Pau Gasol is the only exception to this rule and he is a very skinny guy. Against real powerforwards he generally gets destroyed. 



> Also, to clearify, which i shouldn't since all you have to do is read my original post, I never said Dirk or Stepania were good defenders, but to say that Dirk is a horrible defender is also playing to sterotypes, he's adequete at worst.


This is what you wrote read it over and if you can't decipher it's meaning get someone more intelligent to read it to you.



> *These guys can rebound and they can defend*. Lets look at the statistics: Dirk Nowitski - 9.9 rebs, Pau Gasol - 8.8, Yao Ming - 8.2, Zydrunas Illgauskas - 7.5, Vlade Divac - 7.2, Vladimir Stepania - 7.1, Rasho Nesterovic - 6.5



When you challenge someones opinions, and then label them, you either have to write clearly or be ignored. I am trying to help you be more lucid but you seem to be beyond help.

If you ever seen a Mavericks game in your life, you know Dirk is an awful defender. He just is. He plays matador defense. End of story.

Unless you are unaware of how the word "and" works you are assigning the properties of good rebounding and defense to all of the players you listed. Therefore like any true fool you are contradicting yourself. Kinda silly huh?



> Oh and you would FORGIVE me if english wasn't my first language as if that would demand an appogly??? And you call me a xenophobe...ridiculous


Yes I am willing to overlook the nonsense you write and the glaring holes in your logic if you can't write in this language that well. Otherwise I'd have to write you off as just another idiot with a big mouth, and nothing to back it up but emotions. 


p.s. You're a xenophobe:yes:

Also I don't want to waste bandwidth on your lack of education. Just PM if you disagree. I don't think people want to read my witty replies and your incoherent and illogical responses.


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## Mr. Fong (May 9, 2003)

the fact that you lump all europlayers into stereo types: euro players shoot well, don't defend and can't rebound --- This makes you ignorant and clearly you'd be a horrible GM or draft of basketball talent since you live within these close minded sterotypes, ignoring the fact that euro players are evolving and developing every year as we speak. end of story. I'll leave it to other people to debate becuase I don't need to say anything more to make you look more like a fool. I'm not wasting my time anymore.


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## rainman (Jul 15, 2002)

not sure i want to jump into this pissin match but i think the influx of international players is only going to increase.where i think it may be questioned is how many foreigners would be in the top 5 or so.i think the reason for that is the nba game is structured to the super athlete and the officiating acts accordingly.now if your talking international play then guys like dirk and pau gasol,yao ming would probably be in the top tier at some pt not to far down the road.


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## Mr. Fong (May 9, 2003)

I think that's a really good point, the refing in the league is geared towards aggressive/athletic play, but more so, the league has a tendency to allow it's superstar's to get the benefit of the doubt on calls. So the more international players that become stars, the more we might see the refing benefit them.
And as far as top 5 players go, it's hard to say becuase Dirk is close and it's still early in this so to speak "foreign invasion" and he's very young on top of that.
And certainly if Yao develops, which he will, and when Shaq is in his sunset, would Yao not now become the most dominant center? Certainly puts him in top 5 consideration. 
It makes the league more interesting, I think.


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## genghisrex (May 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Until I see a european come into the NBA and do something besides well besides shoot ( I.E. Rebound and Defend) I will always be a skeptic.


Have you seen Ginobili play? He's a super aggressive defender and a pretty good offensive rebounder too. He doesn't shy away from contact in the paint either. And before you say "Manu's not European," he was a terrible defender when he first arrived in Italy. Manu learned to be a solid defender <i>in Europe</i>. Boris Diaw -- to give another example -- is supposed to be a very good defender too, although I've never seen him play. While it may be true that European basketball has focused less on defense in the past, times are changing and so are the players.


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## Red_Bandit (Apr 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Kirilenko is from russia.





> Only by flopping and getting calls . If you were less ignorant in this subject you would have named Arvedas



If you are going to mention Sabonis who is from Lithuania (formerly part of Soviet Union which is not Europe) then you have to mention Kirilenko.

Marko Jaric ranks #1 in the NBA in Steals Per 48 Minutes(3.38).

Ilgauskas ranks #10 in the NBA in Blocks Per Game(1.88) and ranks #11 in the NBA in Blocks(152.0)

Kirilenko ranks #6 in the NBA in Blocks(175.0), ranks #8 in the NBA in Blocks Per Game(2.19), ranks #14 in the NBA in Steals Per 48 Minutes(2.56)

Blocks per game

#8 Kirilenko (2.19)
#10 Ilgauskas (1.88)
#14 Gasol (1.80)
#19 Nesterovic (1.51)
#24 Divac (1.31)
#33 Nowitzki (1.03)

6 players of the top 50 in blocks per game are european


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## Smac (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> Kirilenko is from russia.
> ...



Knicksbiggestfan- A little piece of advice....Before you start harping on somebody else's "ignorance" and "misconceptions", make sure you've got all your own facts straight. Geographers, historians, political scientists, etc. all consider the section of Russia east of the Ural Mountains to be part of Europe, while everything to the west of that border is generally considered part of Asia. This categorization applies to all countries of the former Soviet Union as well (i.e. Lithuania is part of Europe, but Uzbekistan is part of Asia). Having been born in Moscow, Kirilenko is undoubtedly European and, in my opinion, can play defense better than 90 percent of players in the NBA (American or foreign). 

By the way, I'd rather have Gasol, Nowitzki, Peja, Darko, or even Drobnajk as my team's foward than any big man on the Knicks (with exception of, perhaps, Kurt Thomas). Until McDyess or Camby actually play more games in a season than they miss with injuries, the Knicks would be lucky to have a "skinny" Euro on their team.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

I don't know where to begin with the misconceptions


First of all with Ginobili. If you think he learned to play in Italy you are sorely mistaken. He had been to many championship world cup games before he entered the Italian league. It's arrogant to think that the basketball program there did anything but give him recognition. He was a star before he showed up. Check his website if you need verification. He was one of my picks for rookie of the year the other being Amare. That guy is amazing however the reason he is so good is because he played at a championship level for many years in south america.

As for Boris Diaw. We'll see when he gets here I am not so hopeful as from what I have read from people regarding his "defensive stops" come from pining shots on the glass. His league allows goal tending right?



> Having been born in Moscow, Kirilenko is undoubtedly European and, in my opinion, can play defense better than 90 percent of players in the NBA (American or foreign).


I went up to the History department on my campus today ( we had a colloquiem near there) and asked if someone born in Moscow would consider themeselves European. The professor of Asiatic studies looked at me quizzically as if I had just asked him whether or not I could stick blue fuzzy bannas in her ears. Being born in moscow makes you russian. 

It's just plain stupid to think otherwise. Do you consider someone from Bejing to be puerto rican?

On that note the soviet program churns out great defenders namely Arvydas- who learned to play there and Kirilenko ( one of my favorite players good defender, yet no one mentions his shot selection or field goal percentage). 

The defense first attitude is a trademark of the soviet not european program. Not that I care either way but it's arrogant for you as a European to think that all countries near you are not autonomous. 

Your comment defines ignorance in it's purest form, you don't even know how to differentiate different parts of the globe.


It's funny you mention the knicks, are you sure you'd rather have Kurth Thomas rather than Frederick Weis. Hilarious that an undersized center from an east coast non-playoff team
would beat out all of the people you mentioned. 

"I'd take anyone of these guys over Thomas". I am confused about the point you are trying to make. I think your judgement shadows your foolishness.


Marko Jaric Commits more turnovers than steals and ranks 46th overall in steals per game. I think he could be a good defender but it's obvious he has a way to go.


Ilgauskas- I'll give it to you with 2 concessions

1. If you prefer per 48 minute stats he ranks 14th.

2. He is 7'3 and like shawn bradely most of his blocks are help blocks not man up blocks.


My point is simple. European players might be taking steps towards being complete players, but they aren't. Someday I am sure they will as will all players in the world, but I am sick and tired of the blind, whining, stupidity of those who say they are multi-dimensional players.

I love you all. 
:soapbox: 

:sfight:


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## starvydas (Jul 16, 2002)

First, being from Europe I tend to agree that these days Europeans are overhyped, very much the same way that HS kids are overhyped. However, most Euros were drafted for their offensive game, ,no one claimed they would be defensive stoppers. Pau scored consistently from day one in Vancouver/Memphis, Dirk turned his franchise around with his unorthodox style of play. Same thing to a lesser extent for Peja. I don't know why you pick on European players but other than Kobe, KG, and Duncan no player in the NBA is a top notch scorer and defensive stopper. Is Vince Carter a good defensive player? No. Is AI a good defender ? No. That does not mean Euros should not work on their defensive game as it is far from perfect but you generalise way too much.
And please don't bring that "Anti-americanism" crap in basketball arguments to fit your political agenda. I find it disgusting.



> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> As for Boris Diaw. We'll see when he gets here I am not so hopeful as from what I have read from people regarding his "defensive stops" come from pining shots on the glass. His league allows goal tending right?


Sorry but you just lost a lot of credibility there. If you had ever watched a game from overseas you would know goaltending is obviously not allowed.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Sarcasm makes you really angry. 


Add to your list of defenders ron artest andre miller, John stockton, Jermaine Oneal, micheal jordan, and Caron Butler.


Quite being overly emotional I have no political agenda. 





Except to dethrone Scott Layden, as represented here:


:starwars:


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

lol Russia is a european country. Therefore Kirilenko is a european and a russian the same way someone who is born in Berlin for example is both a german and a european.

The only part of Russia that belongs to the asian continent is Siberia but Kirilenko doesn't come from Siberia.


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

Anyway, I liked that article but I disagree with Knicksbiggestfan.
I don't believe in stereotypes, if a player is good he's good and to not pick a player that is talented because of where he comes from is just stupid.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Euro players are overrated without exception.

I am living in Germany so I can watch euro basketball on a regular basis. They are just riding the waive of success that Dirk, Peja and Pau created.

You will read most of their scouting reports saying that he is a great shooter has range and all that stuff. But in reality you look at the boxscores and he shoots poor percentage from the european 3pt line and normal FG. (example Zako Carba...)

Than you will read how he moves like a gazelle on the court but in reality it is just a soft player who generally lacks bulk and muscle.


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## starvydas (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Sarcasm makes you really angry.
> 
> 
> ...


What makes me angry is you try to belittle some players' achievements, strictly based on where they are from (namely Europe). It is your right to not believe the hype on some Euros but at least build your arguments on facts not on stereotypes.

And none of the above players you mentionned are as good as Dirk or Peja, maybe except Jermaine O'Neal (who's not a good defender anyway).


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

What you say isn't wrong but the americans players that play in college and highschool aren't much better than the euros that are at their age.

I mean if you saw the World Champioship last summer in Indianapolis, you would realize that under different circumstances a guy like Elton Brand wouldn't have been much better than Garbajosa for example.


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## starvydas (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>BigAmare</b>!
> Euro players are overrated without exception.


Some more useless generalisation:no:


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

I was replying to Big Amare with my last message


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## Red_Bandit (Apr 20, 2003)

> Marko Jaric Commits more turnovers than steals and ranks 46th overall in steals per game


Marko Jaric only got 20 minutes a game. If he wasnt on such a stupidly run team like the clippers and got the minutes he deserved then he would have averaged a lot more steals then he did. Do not forget that he is only a rookie taken in the second round much should not have been expected from him.
As for more turnovers then steals?? hes ranked 13th overall in steals to turnover ratio which is VERY GOOD. Considering he is a point guard and his ratio is that that in itself should be very impressive. Other guys ahead of him in that category are mostly "finishers" ie ben wallace, jerome williams, where they get a defensive rebound and then passes off to the PG right away and when they do get the ball on offense its to score and score only and not pass it away. Other guys like Redd are also "finishers" where his team will pass him the ball to shoot. I only used these 3 as examples but you can look for yourself at the others ahead of him and realize that they are not playmakers like Jaric is where he has more risk of turning the ball over then the others ahead of him do. No im not saying they dont get their assists or pass the ball or dribble down the court, but that Jaric, playing PG holds the ball a lot more then the rest.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/default_regular_season_leaders/LeagueLeadersSTRQuery.html



> Until I see a european come into the NBA and do something besides well besides shoot ( I.E. Rebound and Defend) I will always be a skeptic






> Kirilenko ( one of my favorite players good defender, yet no one mentions his shot selection or field goal percentage).


Maybe I am reading the second quote wrong, but your argument was euros who can't do something well other then shooting (I.E. Rebound and Defend) and now you try taking shots at him because he is clearly a very good defender, for not having good shot selection or that his fieldgoal % is not good enough then maybe you should check his stats out. he is 17th in the league in fieldgoal percentage. Yes he was born in moscow and is russian, no body ever denied that, and yes i believe everyone here knows that all of the countries that made up Soviet Union was called Asia as a continent and not Europe. But as someone said, anything west of the Ural Mountians ( ie moscow) have more of a european influence in EVERY bit of their life. You cant compare Soviet way of training their players to that of European way of training their players because 1 is/was a country and the other is a continent. When you compare a continent,(europe) then you must compare it against another continent (asia).


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## Smac (Aug 6, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> I don't know where to begin with the misconceptions
> 
> I went up to the History department on my campus today ( we had a colloquiem near there) and asked if someone born in Moscow would consider themeselves European. The professor of Asiatic studies looked at me quizzically as if I had just asked him whether or not I could stick blue fuzzy bannas in her ears. Being born in moscow makes you russian.
> ...


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## genghisrex (May 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> First of all with Ginobili. If you think he learned to play in Italy you are sorely mistaken. He had been to many championship world cup games before he entered the Italian league. It's arrogant to think that the basketball program there did anything but give him recognition. He was a star before he showed up. Check his website if you need verification. He was one of my picks for rookie of the year the other being Amare. That guy is amazing however the reason he is so good is because he played at a championship level for many years in south america.


Sorry, but you're dead wrong about Manu's defense:



> Six months after using the second-to-last pick of the 1999 draft on a reed-thin Argentine guard named Emanuel Ginobili, Spurs assistant general manager R.C. Buford walked into a gym in Milan, Italy, to check on his prospect.
> 
> What he saw caused him to bury his head in his hands. For all of the Argentine's athleticism and quickness, he played defense like a Spanish matador.
> 
> ...


Link to the full article 

I'll take Spurs' GM R.C. Buford's evaluation over yours any day of the week. Manu had very good athleticism and a nice offensive game when he arrived in Italy, but his defense was terrible. You were saying?


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

Notice how I said he learned to play- as in learned to play. I made no comment about his defense learn to read. Also this thread is about being a skeptic. Quit trying to mold me into your schema of a biased American. It won't work, I won't let it happen.



Johns Hopkins eh? I call bulls-it.




> First of all, the fact that a person from Moscow thinks of themselves as Russian doesn't mean that they also can't be classified as European. Is somebody from France also not European because they call themselves French? Given that most academics ( your community college professor notwithstanding)would acknowledge the Ural Mountains as the de facto border between the continents of Europe and Asia, all ethnic Russians born west of that point are European, regardless of what they believe. If you still don't believe me, check out the CIA's profile on Russia at http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/.


France is a country in Europe you . Californians are Americans, but Taiwanese are not chinese. DOES THAT MAKE THINGS CLEARER FOR YOU. What kind of stupid analogy are you trying to make? At least attempt to draw on an analagous situation or you make yourself look like a blithering fool!

Furthermore Andrei is from St petersburg not moscow . Talk about inaccuracies. 

I love how the CIA's profile is the definitive statement on ethnicity. One of the cornerstones in the architechtonics of Academia is a system to keep people like you out. Really you're ideas are moronic; go ask David Calleo if you don't believe me. ( He'll tell you the same thing as Marsha Chandler)

Who is your advisor? Dr. Bombay? The Janitor? You're no grad student, you just empty their trash. There is no way your in any type of college save Devry, ITT Tech or clown.

As for pulling rank who are you kidding. If you were a grad student you'd understand the signifigance of the word colloquiem. Since you didn't it's obvious you're just another person on the interent with a whole lot of opinion and not a lot of knowledge. 

Also, I never said you would want Frederick weis. If you had half the intelligence you claim to possess you would have noticed it as a witty reply to your


> Until McDyess or Camby actually play more games in a season than they miss with injuries, the Knicks would be lucky to have a "skinny" Euro on their team.


Hey look they do! He can't even beat out Doleac. 


I miss Mr. Fong, at least he knew how to argue a point. You're arguments is so full of holes and misconceptions it's like an infinite loop of stupidity. Please private message me in the future, I don't want to my frontal lobes to wither anymore from reading your pathetic attempts at justification.


Edited to be less of a personal attack.


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## genghisrex (May 3, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Notice how I said he learned to play- as in learned to play. I made no comment about his defense learn to read.


 

Riiight. Well then WTF was your response to my original post about? Maybe you should have actually read what I wrote:



> Manu learned to be a solid defender <i>in Europe</i>.


Nowhere did I say that Manu didn't know how to play the game of basketball before he went to Europe. I was talking about DEFENSE. And while Manu did arrive in Europe with certain skills, there's little denying that he further developed those skills in the Euroleagues.


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## Sigma (Apr 26, 2003)

It's BS that europeans can't defend. I'm not talking about individuals and i'm not talking about europeans in NBA but as a whole.

As i understand in europe its more like team defense (helping teammates etc) when in NBA it is more 1vs1.


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

St. Petersburg is on the Russian borders with Estonia and Finland (who are both members of the european union) so if Kirilenko is from St. Petersburg he's definitely european.

And Sigma is right. The coaches in Europe do focus on defense. It's just that they use the zone more and don't focus too much on one-on-one defense.
That doesn't mean there aren't any great european defensive players. There are plenty of role players in Europe that play incredible defense, but the NBA teams usually draft players with more offensive skills, players who supposedly have more pure potential.

But I think that's changing now and we'll see more europeans with defensive skills in the league.


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## n00b (May 5, 2003)

Knicksbiggestfan - You just got SMACked.

You have no class. You try to sound intelligent but all you can do when people try to discuss points with you is throw out not-so-subtle insults.

And I know you do find it hard to believe, but you do sound like the stereotypical ignorant American. I particularly like how you carelessly you toss out words like "xenophobia" and "Anti-American" when you were so quick to jump on Mr. Fong because he admitted that English was not his first language and because he had a handle that sounded "not American".

Face it, you've been exposed. By a n00b, no less. Chuckle.

As for the original discussion, I agree that European players are hyped, but not more than American players. If we want to generalize, then I can say I'd have more faith in the young players in the US if they show me they can do more than play one-on-one ball and are not egotistical headcases. Of course, there are American players who have a more "complete" game, just as there are some European players with a more "complete" game. So, I don't see how the "hype" is just so much worse for European players; the media outlets write articles about them because most of us don't have any exposure to these players.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>n00b</b>!
> Knicksbiggestfan - You just got SMACked.
> 
> You have no class. You try to sound intelligent but all you can do when people try to discuss points with you is throw out not-so-subtle insults.
> ...



Are you looking at the same map you fool. Did you notice how russia is a different color then the other European countires, gee I wonder why they would make that decision. The only thing that got smacked here is common sense.

Now go back to filling your role as the cracker in the circle jerk of stupidity.


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## H2O (Jul 10, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> Now go back to filling your role as the cracker in the circle jerk of stupidity.


I dunno, that seemed pretty subtle to me..


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## n00b (May 5, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Knicksbiggestfan</b>!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hahaha. I always wonder about peeps who bring up quasi-homosexual activities in discussions. Sure signs of a subconscious desire.

I am looking at the map and I thought maybe the reason Russia (or more correctly the Soviet Union) is a different color than the rest of Europe is because IT'S A MAP OF RUSSIA! Notice how every country other than Russia is a different color as well.

You are for me to poop on.


As for some valid discussion:

I don't see how the correct definition of "European" really has to do with the discussion, other then to give Knicksbiggestfan a fat bone to pick so he can distract from the fact that his points have been thoroughly refuted. Players from all over the world go play in the European leagues and I think when people toss out terms like "European player", that is often what is meant. Again, if we were to generalize, we could say that players in the European leagues play a certain style of ball that is more finesse-oriented.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

Foreign players ARE legit but they are also being blown out of porportion. Players like Dirk and Yao are huge talents but some euro or foreign guys are getting hyped up too much. With what I have seen Darko is definitely legit but some euro or foreign players...the truth is...if they were to play here they would not get the hype they are getting and some of the players that play here would be getting more hype if in Europe. Let me ask you guys what is the difference between Radmanovic and Rickert? But one was a lottery pick and the other projected to be late 1st rounder.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

I'm a skeptic, period. Right now there are 150 guys who are "sure" first round picks, 100 potential NBA all-stars, and 50 potential lottery picks. Hell, every 17 yr. kid who declares for the draft is a sure lottery pick in someone's opinion. The agents smell the money the way a pirhana smells a dead cow in the water.

In fact, there are only 5-6 players-- American or foreign-- in this draft who will become very good NBA players and another 4-5 who will become decent bench players. About 20 other first round picks will shuffle from roster to roster until the guaranteed money runs out. As for the rest, they will be playing in the NDBL, Italy, Belgium, etc.-- or not playing at all.


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## Knicksbiggestfan (Apr 29, 2003)

hahahaha that's hilarious, Mr Fong uh I mean newb.




> I am looking at the map and I thought maybe the reason Russia (or more correctly the Soviet Union) is a different color than the rest of Europe is because IT'S A MAP OF RUSSIA! Notice how every country other than Russia is a different color as well.


A. The Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore, nor has it for some time.

B. Most important of all of the map is of Russia and NOT EUROPE that would make everyone in the Area marked RUSSIAN A RUSSIAN and everyone in the EUROPEAN area a European.


Thanks for helping me prove my point, you silly fool. Honestly get someone to proofread your posts they're a violation of logic.

Speaking of which.



> And I know you do find it hard to believe, but you do sound like the stereotypical ignorant American. I particularly like how you carelessly you toss out words like "xenophobia" and "Anti-American" when you were so quick to jump on Mr. Fong because he admitted that English was not his first language and because he had a handle that sounded "not American".


Same way you toss out Quasi-homosexual. Seriously that's about as a valid as the following argument:

OMFG U R GAYZ0r!!!111!!!


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## Mr. Fong (May 9, 2003)

*CLEARIFICATION ON YOUR MISTAKE KNICKER*

Do not mistake me for a noob or whatever that other person refers to himself by, there can be only one Mr. Fong (besides the 330 thousand in China probably) and it is me!

Another clarification...as much as it makes me want to jump out a window defending Ol' Knicker, but umm, guys sorry , Russia is not part of Europe, its part of the continent of Asia. Basic geography, don't need to dust up any ancient books in your grad school to figure out that one. 

And before you get all self-masturbatory with yourself Knicker, you're still a troll and you know it, but as long as you're okay with that...so be it. 

Mr. Fong has spoken.


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## Mr. Fong (May 9, 2003)

Doc...you make ignorant comments and i must interject. 



> Foreign players ARE legit but they are also being blown out of porportion. Players like Dirk and Yao are huge talents but some euro or foreign guys are getting hyped up too much. With what I have seen Darko is definitely legit but some euro or foreign players...the truth is...if they were to play here they would not get the hype they are getting and some of the players that play here would be getting more hype if in Europe. Let me ask you guys what is the difference between Radmanovic and Rickert? But one was a lottery pick and the other projected to be late 1st rounder


I'm forced to quote your entire post becuase it was "quasi-homosexual" (apprarently the word of the day)

First, foreign players are SOMETIMES overhyped, BUT so are American players. And to say that if a player was in europe that he'd be hyped more is absolutely ludicrious, CAN YOU SAY LEBRON JAMES??? try it...Le-Bron...J-J-J-(spit it out tard')-J-J-J-James, He's one of the most hyped players to enter the draft and considering today's wide spreading media, probably THE most hyped. So therefore, your point just got deficated on........by me.

Next, you want to know the difference between Radmanovic and Rickert? For one, Rickert is more suited to play the 4spot becuase of his lack of foot speed, he has a good mid range jumper, but it probably won't extend to NBA 3pt range anytime soon, he has good foot work in the post, but at 6-11 and only 213, he needs to put on a lot of weight. Radmanovic is 6-10, 230 and although his size allows him to play the 4, he's more of a true 3 and he plays that position more, he can hit the three ball and is very good in the transition becuase of his athletic ability and quickness (something Rickert lacks), this also makes him much more versatile defensively than Rickert. Hands down they are not comparable players. Rick Rickert is talented, but his lack of athleticism, quickness, and upper body strength, deter teams from taking him as a sure lottery pick. YOU ASKED FOR IT....

And Finally, you say, from what you've "seen" of Darko, COME ON, lets not make ourselves look cool by pretending that we have some underground tape of Darko that our 2nd cousin from Italy has sent us and then go on a forum to strangers and act like we have "inside" basketball knowledge, You're not cool......and you're god damn right, I AM. 

And if you're asking youself why am I "picking on you" and ruining your day, doc, its becuase I can.  Fong Style bizzznich.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Mr. Fong</b>!
> Doc...you make ignorant comments and i must interject.
> 
> 
> ...


How old r u? I am not even gonna reply to this post. People who have read my posts know what I am all about. I had no opinion about you and I am not gonna waste my time to start now.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

Mr. Fong



> Let's end all the skepticisms right now, frankly it's down right surprising that any skeptics exists these days. Foriegn players are legit. Foriegn players (and for Big ol' Knick fan, this includes european players, let's not try to get technical and make distinctions, you're just using a loophole to avoid admitting that you're losing an argument) are the same as european players, meaning they're not from the United States and most are playing pro ball overseas before they come to the league. These guys can rebound and they can defend. Lets look at the statistics: Dirk Nowitski - 9.9 rebs, Pau Gasol - 8.8, Yao Ming - 8.2, Zydrunas Illgauskas - 7.5, Vlade Divac - 7.2, Vladimir Stepania - 7.1, Rasho Nesterovic - 6.5



*Ok this thread is getting out of hand, remember we SHOULD be talking about basketball players not ethnic groups! Don't stereotype anyone because of where they come from. Sure US basketball players have a different style sometimes but so what, in the end they are basketball players, some have certian strengths and weaknesses but they DO NOT correlate to different ethnic backgrounds of any kind. Foreign players are here to stay in the NBA, the number drafted has increased in the past 3 drafts. But also remember that this talent explosion could be build up from all of those years the NBA did not look overseas. Althought US is still the home of the best players in the world, but really who cares they are all BASKETBALL PLAYERS, no more, no less! You people should be ashamed how racists and stereotypical this thread has turned into.*


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## ira (May 3, 2003)

i didn`t want to get in the middle of this but this thing with the non european russia is getting out of hand! 

russia, the baltic countries, moldavia , 
*ARE IN EUROPE* 

esthonia a couple of months ago became a part of EUROPEAN community 

Asia starts at the Urals .. everything left from the mountain is europe. 


bball is nice but read a book once a while !


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## Mr. Fong (May 9, 2003)

*OZZY THIS IS DIRECTED AT YOU*

Perhaps Ozzy there will come a time in your life when you will become aware that literacy is not the only preqruisite for intelligence. When reading it has been found that comprehension can be helpful. ENLIGHTENMENT 

Explain to me how when reading my posts you came to decipher that I sterotype races, that I sterotype people based on where they are from or that somehow, as you've implied, I'm against foreign basketball players???? Tick tock....tick tock... the sound of my watch while i wait for a logical reply.....

If you actually took time to comprehend this thread you would understand that I've been defending foreign players and indeed saying that a "basketball player is just a basketball player" which was in direct rebuttly of Knickfans' anti-european sentiments. It baffles me that you could actually read this thread and come to an exact opposite conclusion. 

Not to mention, Bball Doc, who seems to claim that europlayers are over hyped and that there is false credit given to foreign basketball talent. He implies that there is some injustice occuring becuase of the attention that international players are recieving. Yet you are calling ME a racist. 

I cannot tolerate such ignorace. If you would like to reread the posts and appologize to me that seems to be the only appropriate course of action. 

If for some reason you cannot suck up your pride and my "insults" get in the way(which i have every right considering you called me a racist unjustly), then that does not lay in my hands....You should be ashamed of yourself. 

one more thing....SERIOUSLY HAVE YOU BEEN ACTUALLY READING THE POSTS?????????????????????? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU.


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## Mr. Fong (May 9, 2003)

*ONE FOR THE DOC*



> the truth is...if they were to play here they would not get the hype they are getting and some of the players that play here would be getting more hype if in Europe. Let me ask you guys what is the difference between Radmanovic and Rickert? But one was a lottery pick and the other projected to be late 1st rounder


Doc the next time you post something that is wrong expect it to be corrected. And if you can't take the fact that i not only proved your little opinion wrong and threw mud at you then grow a spine. But don't just say (I'm not going to respond) after i've proven you wrong, I suppose you can run and hide if you want, but what does that make you? Instead you can accept the fact that you were wrong and gain what little face you have left. If I say soemthing wrong or have been proven wrong, I'll admitt it, I don't stick my head in a hole like an osterich. 

In fact, I don't quite see how Russia is part of Europe quite yet, perhaps western russia, but are we not talking about the continent of europe and the continent of asia? IF you look on any map you will plainly see that russia is on the continent of asia NOT europe. If by some technicality that I'm not aware of or by some other means Russia is a part of Europe than explain it further to me (the european union is a not the same as continents, the european union isn't in the almanac, that's political, not geographical). In fact, I'm researching it on the web at this moment. 

See Doc, it's not hard...same goes for you Ozz. 

FOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: OZZY THIS IS DIRECTED AT YOU*



> Originally posted by <b>Mr. Fong</b>!
> Perhaps Ozzy there will come a time in your life when you will become aware that literacy is not the only preqruisite for intelligence. When reading it has been found that comprehension can be helpful. ENLIGHTENMENT
> 
> Explain to me how when reading my posts you came to decipher that I sterotype races, that I sterotype people based on where they are from or that somehow, as you've implied, I'm against foreign basketball players???? Tick tock....tick tock... the sound of my watch while i wait for a logical reply.....
> ...


I don't think he was referring to you.
I think what he was trying to say is that this thread is getting out of hand. He didn't give me the impression that he was trying to attack you or anything.


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## qwertyu (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: ONE FOR THE DOC*



> Originally posted by <b>Mr. Fong</b>!
> 
> 
> Doc the next time you post something that is wrong expect it to be corrected. And if you can't take the fact that i not only proved your little opinion wrong and threw mud at you then grow a spine. But don't just say (I'm not going to respond) after i've proven you wrong, I suppose you can run and hide if you want, but what does that make you? Instead you can accept the fact that you were wrong and gain what little face you have left. If I say soemthing wrong or have been proven wrong, I'll admitt it, I don't stick my head in a hole like an osterich.
> ...


Well anyway, geography is not the point here. 
The point is that the Russian basketball federation belongs to FIBA's european zone. 
Which means that russian teams always play against other european teams. And Kirilenko when he was still in Russia played against other european teams, therefore he is a product of european basketball.


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## Bball_Doctor (Dec 29, 2002)

*Re: ONE FOR THE DOC*



> Originally posted by <b>Mr. Fong</b>!
> 
> 
> Doc the next time you post something that is wrong expect it to be corrected. And if you can't take the fact that i not only proved your little opinion wrong and threw mud at you then grow a spine. But don't just say (I'm not going to respond) after i've proven you wrong, I suppose you can run and hide if you want, but what does that make you? Instead you can accept the fact that you were wrong and gain what little face you have left. If I say soemthing wrong or have been proven wrong, I'll admitt it, I don't stick my head in a hole like an osterich.
> ...


I actually had respect for your opinion until you threw in that immature junk at the bottom of your post. THAT IS WHY I SAID I WON'T WASTE MY TIME becuz obviously it sounds like you are an immature poster and I have gotten into arguments with internet "thugs" before. As for the Rickert and Vlad comment. I NEVER compared them as players but situation...if you got that perception that I must have confused you. The truth is and IMO is that many european or foreign players like Vlad if they played here would get critiqued more as they would be under heavier evaluation since many people would be able to see them. A player with Rickert's skill if he played in Europe would probably be overhyped but Rickert would get ripped apart here becuz he would be under higher scrutiny. Comparing them as players WAS never my intent and where in the post do I say I compared them as PLAYERS. Also how do I discredit foreign players and their talent...don't put words in my mouth...I said if euro players played here they wouldn't be as hyped as they are as if they played in Europe becuz of various factors especially evalaution and period of evaluation. I AM ASIAN living in CANADA...if I am negative against Foreign players obviously I am a hyporcrite and I contradict the hundreds of posts that I have post on this board. Truth is that I like the fact that foreign players are coming into the NBA becuz and I have said this before it makes the product truly the "world's best". How can people call NBA the world's best brand of basketball if it is a monopoly league with players from one country? Anyone that has ever read my posts know that I give foreign players much props and credit SO DON"T ASSUME THINGS look at all my past posts. How long have you EVEN been on BBB.net? But that is no excuse for not acknowledging that a lot of euro players are being overhyped. How am I racist? I never made a stereotypical view about a european or foreign player...my point was how they are evaluated and that contributing to the fact that they are often overhyped...DID U NOT READ that I said they were LEGIT obviously meaning they are great talents. Yao, Dirk, Nene...most of all Drazen have proved that. The whole overhyping also holds truth about HS players. Months ago when people were so high about Lang and Perkins I had the courage to reveal that they were as good as advertised becuz I have seen them play. They were products of overhyped but after careful and longer periods of evaluation their value has dropped dramatically by many scouts and mocks. Lebron is the real deal...believe it or not and yes he is overhyped but I knew about this kid since his soph year in HS. Your evaluation on Vlad and Rickert as a player is good and I don't have arguments with that but like I said I never meant the post to be a player comparison. It is just quite pathetic that you would try to atagonize other posters...that is where you lost my respect. Seriously How old r u? Are you EVEN asian? Obviously you have some basketball knowledge but to mask your posts with ridiculous comments and things like FOOOOOONNNNGGGGG shows your maturity level. Ask any poster here if I shy away of an argument. The fact is that after seeing things like that it became obvious that I would probably get into another immature and pathetic verbal war as it is obvious that you try to atagonize other posters. You haven't even been on the board long enough IMO to gain that ability to do that and most repected posters do not even do that.

Here is a great article written on nbadraft.net and read paragraph 4 which is my point of why I believe that foreign players in general are overhyped:

International Backlash

Some International scouts are of the opinion that the NBA has become too enamored with European and International players. The feeling is that the success of International guys has created an overhype of players. There are a number of factors contributing to the "Euro Frenzy" which we will examine.

First off, because the games of European players are not easily accessible. An NBA scout has to go out of their way to see a game of a player overseas. And to cover all the European and International players, a scout must either:

A) Dedicate a few months to being on the road traveling throughout Europe. 
B) Watch (often grainy) game tape of players. 
C) Rely on the word of mouth of scouts and contacts overseas. Usually the GM's and scouts of teams must rely on some combination of these things. And because the games over in Europe often go right into the summer, certain players are never able to come over to get worked out by NBA teams.

Europeans have a luster to their games because often times the only games the scout or GM sees of them are the best ones in which the players does something positive. Because the player didn't have their every move scrutinized as NCAA players often do, the European players deficiencies aren't exposed the way the NCAA players are.

In the past, scouts were very skeptical about European players, there was an attitude that they had to "prove it" by producing, and then they would get consideration." Now with the success of Nowitzki, Peja, Gasol, and Parker etc., all of a sudden Europeans are given the same standard that American teens are. The problem with that is these players are even bigger mystery players than American high school guys, and often there is less upside as these players are usually more fully developed physically. 

A word of advise use some intelligence before you post. If you want to post basketball knowledge then BBB.net is the place to do it but don't come on here and post garbage like:

And if you're asking youself why am I "picking on you" and ruining your day, doc, its becuase I can. Fong Style bizzznich or FOOOOOONNNNGGGG.

That is simply immaturity right there and I have even wasted enough time to post this becuz you did manage to get under my skin...congrats...if I confused you with my previous post then it is my fault as I said what I meant to say in less words but this should be a more complete explaination of why I feel Foreign players in general are getting overhyped. I NEVER said they were not good basketball players.


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## brazys (Jul 17, 2002)

*this is a lithuanian speaking...*

1) Ural mountains is a geographic limit between europe and asia. part of russia is in asia (woods, ice and oil), half in europe (cities, people and vodka  ).
2) russian basketball is an european one, because russian clubs play in euroleague, their national team plays in european championships. 
3) lithuania is a geographic CENTRE of Europe. we got into European Union last weekend. Berlin is 70USD bus ticket away.
4) sabonis' game was developed in lithuania, where he played for 3 time USSR champion Zalgiris team. 4 of 5 1988 USSR olympic gold winning basketball squad were Lithuanians. that doesn't mean lithuanians are great defenders (we are more of passers and shooters). sabas is a unique player anyway to draw conclusions from.
5) When our young players come back from NCAA, they suffer from foul trouble (for example, Darius Songaila). the reason is referies doesn't tolerate as physical game as it is in USA.
6) NBA scouts pay too much attention to Euroleague Final 4. Probably that's because they only get to see it courtside. A lot of great talents don't even play in euroleague (for example Darko Milicic). Tsikitishvili's draft seed could be lower if his Benneton team didn't play in final 4.
7) A number of European and european based players from age 25 and more could be great role players in nba. Dejan Bodiroga, gregor F.ucka, sarunas jasikevicius (dropped 30 points with defense of Kidd and payton in sydney olympic games), dejan tomasevic, kaspars kambala and so on... for every mehmet okur we have
8) Anderson Varejao is overrated. Vyktor Khriapa is a gem and big-time sleeper. i have high hopes on milos vujanic - knicks fans will be pleased and shake off their no-more-damn-frederick-weiss-itis 
9) European players in general are really worse athletes and rebounders than USA developed players (that includes foreign NCAA alumns), because in their young days all european basketball players from smallest to 7-0 freaks are taught shooting, dribbling and passing. USA coaches send their small guys to dribbling drills and their bigs train playing back to the basket. overall, playing back to the basket is a great plus and a sign of real post game for any USA coach or scout. Yugoslavian players are nice exception because their bigs really have ways to score in the paint.
10) i had a chance last summer to watch european under-20 championship, which took place here in Lithuania. Boris Diaw and M.Pietrus really made an impression on me. Pietrus has athletic tools to become good slasher and defender in nba. Diaw has good 6-7 frame to go with his good passing and leader skils.
11) Darko Milicic is for real. His upside is something between gasol and KG. already has number of both hands post moves, good quickness and movement. even europeans are hyped about him.

overall, every player is different case.


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## OZZY (Jun 14, 2002)

> Perhaps Ozzy there will come a time in your life when you will become aware that literacy is not the only preqruisite for intelligence. When reading it has been found that comprehension can be helpful. ENLIGHTENMENT
> 
> Explain to me how when reading my posts you came to decipher that I sterotype races, that I sterotype people based on where they are from or that somehow, as you've implied, I'm against foreign basketball players???? Tick tock....tick tock... the sound of my watch while i wait for a logical reply.....
> 
> ...


Mr. Fong I'm sorry, that was not intended to be directed at you, it was supposed to be directed at all of you that have been debating back and forth and there is obviously stereotypes being thrown around saying foreign players can't play etc. Again it was not directed at you personally, it was just I quoted your post that started all of it.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

Leaving aside the personal attacks and geography debates and getting back to the topic of this thread, I would encourage everyone to go over to NBAdraft.net and read today's news article entitled "Mass Exodus." Among other things, the article states:

1. Anderson Varejão, projected by many as a lottery pick, will pull out of the draft because (1) his contract with Barcelona requires a million dollar buyout, and (2) he played so badly in the European final four that he isn't even a first round pick. No offensive game. 

2. Pavel Podkolzin mqay pull out of the draft because he has a 10 year contract with Varese and no one can afford the buyout. In fact, it has been Varese that has been touting this kid because they want the buyout money. Although not stated in the article, this also explains why Podkolzin gets so little playing time. The people at Varese don't want the world to know that Podkolzin, although huge, has very few basketball skills. 

3. Carlos Delfino has 2 years left on his contract with Skipper. There is a $1 million buyout this year or an $800,000 buyout next year. So he may stay in Europe for one or two more years. 

4. Aleksandar Pavlovic has been playing poorly and may wait a year. 

5. Kresimir Loncar will probably withdraw since he isn't a first round pick.

6. Slavko Vranes is a stiff who will pull out of the draft. To quote NBAdraft.net, "size alone cannot guarantee a first round pick or a career in the NBA." 

7. Aleksandar Djuric plans to go to the Chicago pre-draft camp in hopes of impressing some people. He will stay in the draft only if he gets a first round guarantee. 

8. Zoran Planinic is weak physically and will likely withdraw because he won't go in the first round. He is also hurt by the failure of Jaric and Welsch to live up to expectations.

9. NBAdraft.net is high on Sasha Vujacic, the Slovenian who plays for Udine Snadeiro in the Italian league. He also plans to be in Chicago.

10. The article points out something that had slipped my mind: European players can declare for the draft and withdraw as many times as they want (e.g. Boris Diaw), while American players only have one chance to pull out. This means that teams can get fleeced by European players playing the "wait and see" game. 

11. The article discusses the so called NBA "Euro Frenzy" prompted by the success of Nowitski, Gasol, et. al., and suggests that a backlash is setting in. To quote NBAdraft.net: "Europeans have a luster to their games because often times the only games the scout or GM sees of them are the best ones in which the players does something positive. Because the player didn't have their every move scrutinized as NCAA players often do, the European players deficiencies aren't exposed the way the NCAA players are."

Once again I strongly recommend the article.


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## andras (Mar 19, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>starbonis</b>!
> To Andras
> 
> J.R Holden has learn a lot in Europe, and especially in Belgium: leading a team, taking a big load on his game. He is damn fast and an average defender.


I'm Belgian. So obviously I'm basing my judgement on his time playing here. I agree he's a good player. Team leading... he was often criticized for his disability to lead Oostende. I'm not really with you here.



> Sure he is not a prospect, but who in Europe would have think the Chucky Atkins could be back in the League after his stint in Croatia ??.


True. It's a long shot, but it's possible he'll play in the league... because of poor judgment by a certain NBA team or -far more likely- because my opinion on him is way off. Me personally, I really can't see much NBA potential in this guy. Mostly because I feel he's not that good at orchestrating his team.


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## Red_Bandit (Apr 20, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> Leaving aside the personal attacks and geography debates and getting back to the topic of this thread, I would encourage everyone to go over to NBAdraft.net and read today's news article entitled "Mass Exodus." Among other things, the article states:
> 
> 1. Anderson Varejão, projected by many as a lottery pick, will pull out of the draft because (1) his contract with Barcelona requires a million dollar buyout, and (2) he played so badly in the European final four that he isn't even a first round pick. No offensive game.
> ...


Just a few things about the article (not taking shots at you Big John)....


1.) Anderson Varejao played 284 minutes in the euroleague up until the final 4. In those 284 minutes he was good enough to be a lottery pick. But then he plays 14minutes in the final 4 against CSKA and Benetton and all of a sudden the scouts change their minds and say he is not good enough? thats a total of 298minutes he played in the euroleague. Scouts and some GM's say because of that 4.6% (14minutes) of time he logged in the final 4 that hes not a lottery pick anymore? What on earth were the scouts looking at before in those 284 minutes (and probably league games too)??? 


6.) Slavko Vranjes was never thought of as a first rounder and if he was it must have been very early on in the season when scouts saw that he was 7'6. Everyone knows he doesnt have much skill but has the potential to be "non-offensive" version of Shawn Bradley. I dont think he is too much of a risk to take late in the second round.


8.) How did Marko Jaric fail this year? The Clippers made a big trade to get Andre Miller for fan favourite Darius Miles. Even though everyone wanted Jaric to be the starter of the Clippers, do you think that any coach would give more minutes to a 2nd round draft pick over a guy they acquired in a major trade? hell no. 

10.) Is the one chance americans have to pull out because it still allows them to play NCAA basketball? If so why dont they just goto europe then and play. Im sure 80% of the guys going for nba arent at university to get an education but to get to nba.




> also for their love of the shooting even out of position shoooting ( like Drobnjak)


Do you get pissed off when you see Webber or Duncan shoot from the top of the key? arent they shooting from out of position then too? Ill bet that those two shoot more out of position then Drobnjak does.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Red_Bandit</b>!.....
> 1.) Anderson Varejao played 284 minutes in the euroleague up until the final 4. In those 284 minutes he was good enough to be a lottery pick. But then he plays 14minutes in the final 4 against CSKA and Benetton and all of a sudden the scouts change their minds and say he is not good enough? thats a total of 298minutes he played in the euroleague. Scouts and some GM's say because of that 4.6% (14minutes) of time he logged in the final 4 that hes not a lottery pick anymore? What on earth were the scouts looking at before in those 284 minutes (and probably league games too)???......


You make some valid points, Red Bandit. But as to Varejao, the answer to your question about the scouts is that most of them probably never saw him before that. They were going on rumor and reputation.

And if Varejao is so good (and those 14 minutes do not reflect his skills) he always has the option of staying in the draft, coming to the Chicago pre draft camp and showing everyone what he can do. It is Varejao and his advisors, not the scouts, who make the final decision about when he should enter the draft.


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## guilherme.rcf (Mar 4, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> 
> You make some valid points, Red Bandit. But as to Varejao, the answer to your question about the scouts is that most of them probably never saw him before that. They were going on rumor and reputation.
> ...


Only one scout said Varejao isnt ready and there are 8 or 9 ncaa players who can grab more rebounds and block more shots than him. What do the rest of the scouts think?


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## JGKoblenz (Jul 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Big John</b>!
> 
> And if Varejao is so good (and those 14 minutes do not reflect his skills) he always has the option of staying in the draft, coming to the Chicago pre draft camp and showing everyone what he can do. It is Varejao and his advisors, not the scouts, who make the final decision about when he should enter the draft.


No he can't. He has a contract with Barcelona. He won't leave Spain until the season there is over.


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## Big John (Sep 11, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>JGKoblenz</b>!
> 
> 
> No he can't. He has a contract with Barcelona. He won't leave Spain until the season there is over.


I thought they just played the final four. In any event, it is still up to him as to whether or not to enter the draft. If he is better than he showed, he has the opportunity to prove it, either in Europe or Chicago.

We all know this is about the guaranteed money. If he doesn't think he will get it, he will pull out of the draft and try again next year.


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## starvydas (Jul 16, 2002)

The Final Four was at the European level. Varejao still has a few games left to play in his home league, as it starts later than the other European leagues.


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