# Top 10 Players in the League



## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Since the season is over, I'm interested in how the elite players are viewed going into next season. What's your top 10, in order? And you can't criticize anyone's list unless you do your own. 

1. LeBron James - Still undisputed to me. Celtics defense gave everyone problems and the Cavs didn't have any roleplayers to make them pay for loading up LeBron. 

2. Chris Paul - Probably higher than most people will have him. He is incredibly efficient as a scorer and a point guard. I feel he will MVP next season if his team can muster up enough wins. I hope he gets dealt or the Hornets make some kind of move. 

3. Kobe Bryant - Declining athletically, but still has an incredible skillset and a fierce will to win. He is probably the most feared player in the league. 

4. Dwyane Wade - This guy is LeBron-lite to me. Not quite the scorer, not quite the passer, not quite the rebounder, but does all of these things well enough to be a top 5 player. 

5. Kevin Durant - A lengthy 6'10 sharpshooter with athleticism and off-the-dribble ability. One of the more gifted scorers the league has ever seen. 

6. Dwight Howard - Shuts down the paint on defense and gives you easy buckets on offense. You can't really run your offense through him, but his defense makes him extra valuable. 

7. Deron Williams - To me, he is like Chris Paul-lite. Less quickness, more strength. He runs his team efficiently and is a fierce competitor. 

8. Dirk Nowitzki - Still a force and a very difficult matchup. Good for 25/10 any given night. 

9. Pau Gasol - Most talented big man in the league. 

10. Brandon Roy - He is a point guard in the form of a scoring wing. He does everything you'd want your point guard, shooting guard or small forward to do.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

I don't know what planet Chris Paul is the 2nd best player in the NBA on, but it certainly isn't this one.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Good list.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

1. James
2. Bryant
3. Paul
4. Durant
5. Wade
6. Howard
7. Williams
8. Gasol
9. Melo
10. Roy

I feel Kobe is still going to be an integral part of a team with one of the best records in the league, and you know that there will be another extended playoff run, maybe with even more adversity considering the improvement of certain other teams. Durant has shown a huge uptick based on a combo of his natural learning curve and ungodly skillset which makes me feel he's in for a very special season. Theres so many players that hover around that tenth spot in my opinion, Amare could start giving a **** about that certain half of the court and become an amazing big man, Bosh May have a change of scenery and prove he can be a go-to player, Dirk may still be a productive player at 32 because of his ability to play the game so fundamentally sound, one of the young bucks can take that next leap and become an all-nba type, etc. etc..


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## Animist (Sep 6, 2009)

Hmm.. Pretty good list though leaving out Howard from the top 5 is pretty much arguable solely based on positional value, yet again. You can't make him your offensive anchor but he's a darn good Center defensively. Still, it's a close call between him and Durant for the top 5 spot.


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## garnett (May 13, 2003)

I'd probably put Durant above Dwight because you can run your offense through him and Durant can score so many ways. 

1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3. Paul
4. Durant
5. Wade
6. Dwight
7. Deron
8. Pau
9. Dirk
10. Roy


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Lebron
Kobe
Wade
Paul
Dwight
Durant
Dirk
Deron
Melo
Nash


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## futuristxen (Jun 26, 2003)

1. Lebron--Unquestionably.
2. Durant--Moved ahead of Kobe this year for me. He's a better scorer than Kobe, and I think is fast becoming a better defender.
3. Kobe--On the decline. Sort of in that place where Jordan was during the second 3 peat. Still good enough to put a good team over the top, but he can't do it alone anymore.
4. CP3--Mini-Lebron
5. Howard--A one way player, but he's great on that one side. If you paired him with CP3, Lebron, or Wade he'd be Bill Russell.
6. Wade--Lebron-lite. Does everything Lebron does, but just a shade not as good.
7. Pau--Best all-around big man in the league. He's in Scottie Pippen territory now IMO, in terms of great sidekicks.
8. Deron--On his day can be better than Paul. 
9. Dirk--Needs to get out of Dallas and start playing deeper into the playoffs. Very very good though.
10.Melo--This spot could be a lot of diffrent guys. I went with Melo because sure why not.


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## JerryWest (Jun 24, 2002)

1 - LeBron
2 - Kobe
3 - Paul
4 - Durant
5 - Howard
6 - Wade
7 - Deron
8 - Dirk
9 - Rose
10 - Carmelo

I'm surprised at how many people have Gasol so high. Would you really have Gasol on your team over Deron Williams? Rose? Melo? I don't see how that's possible. Gasol gets shut out offensively completely against better defensive teams every couple of games. Rose, Williams and Melo wouldn't allow that to happen and can do things even with opposing defense geared towards stopping them

At best, I have Gasol at 11, but that's only because of Roy's injury concerns. Also, surprised to not see Rose's name pop up.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I'm a little surprised that LeBron has been #1 on every list after his perceived let down against the Celtics, and after Kobe won another title and finals MVP. I thought it would be closer to split or atleast a couple votes for Kobe.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I'm a little surprised that LeBron has been #1 on every list after his perceived let down against the Celtics, and after Kobe won another title and finals MVP. I thought it would be closer to split or atleast a couple votes for Kobe.


I hear 23AJ's footsteps


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

1 - LeBron
2 - Kobe
3 - Wade
4 - Paul
5 - Howard
6 - Durant
7 - Deron
8 - Dirk
9 - Gasol
10 - Carmelo


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

1.) LeBron
2.) Kobe
3.) Wade
4.) Paul
5.) Howard
6.) Durant
7.) Deron
8.) Dirk
9.) Carmelo
10.) Roy

I'm expecting Rose to be on this list around this time next year.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

1. Lebron - Still easily the best player in the league. 

2. Wade - Impressive 33 points/6.8 assists/ 5.6 rebounds/56% shooting against Boston. Bigger and better version of Rose minus the FT accuracy. 

3. Kobe - His legs can't compete with the above and he's having surgery this summer. If you're a Finals MVP you deserve a top spot but time will tell how surgery, crazy reg season schedule, and these added playoffs miles will affect Kobe's play. 

4. CP3 - Based here solely on reputation alone. If he can get back to his 2009 self then he could take the #3 spot. 

5. Durant - Needs to work on his game against physical and savvy defenders.

6. Deron Williams - Will rank above CP3 if he doesn't return to his former self. 

7. Pau Gasol - Best overall big in the NBA that can actually compete on the court since he has younger legs than Duncan and doesn't foul out as often as Howard. Most skilled and one of the most confident NBA bigs. 

8. Dirk Nowitzki - Best player of the Spurs/Mav series, incredible touch. Did melt down in the first half of an elimination game though but made an epic flurry of shots to come back. Needs to stay focused throughout the game and not pick up dumb fouls on guards. 

9. Dwight Howard - Seemed to have regressed and makes himself a liability too often. Needs to really work on his mental focus just as much as he needs to learn how to play a post game. Showed he can do so in the last two games of the series against Boston but needs to have that focus throughout. 

10. Carmelo Anthony - Also needs to work on his mental game.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

1 - LeBron James
2 - Chris Paul
3 - Dwayne Wade
4 - Kobe Bryant
5 - Dwight Howard
6 - Kevin Durant
7 - Deron Williams
8 - Pau Gasol
9 - Carmelo Anthony
10 - Chris Bosh

Let me explain the whole Kobe thing. The guys ranked 2, 3, and 4 are pretty interchangeable in those spots. I think Chris Paul is right up there, and I give him the edge because of his positional value. Kobe is an assassin, and I love his game, but Dwayne Wade is phenomenal. He's just so incredibly talented, Kobe's edge nowadays comes from his impeccable technique and mindset.


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## Fray (Dec 19, 2005)

If my goal was to win a championship next season here's how I would rank them:

1. LeBron
2. Wade
3. Paul

4. Durant
5. Kobe
6. Howard
7. Deron
8. Nowitzki
9. Carmelo
10. Roy


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

See when you have people like Jakain who put Dwight Howard as a 9th in the NBA, this goes to show to you how dumb even the "hardcore" fans are of this game. Orlando would never trade Howard for Wade, Paul, Durant or Kobe. Those guys are not better than him by themselves at all. Lebron is, but the other guys aren't (Kobe because of age). 

Just because a guy has a pretty PER, whatever. Howard makes the Magic an immediate title contender, I can't say the same for anyone else in the league except Lebron and Kobe. Durant leads the league in scoring and is now better than Howard, how? Howard leads the league in shooting percentage, blocks, rebounding and gets his team to the conference Finals and the NBA Finals.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I mean this guy has Deron Williams, Pau Gasol and Dirk ranked over Howard. Good lord.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Dwight does a lot but doesn't it bother you that it's so easy to contain him offensively?

Anyways..top 10 most valuable. Not the most talented, or prettiest PER, but the first 10 players you'd snatch up to build a champion.

Lebron
----
Kobe
----
Dwight
Wade
Deron
Paul
----
Carmelo
Durant
Dirk
----
Roy



Remarks:

Wade is a great talent, but I'm starting to give him that side-eye people couldn't wait to give AI. If he's not in the ECFs next year there's a problem.

:lol: @ people who don't think the Lakers would've still won with Duncan instead of Pau. I have Duncan 11th..I didn't realize until I re-read the list that I had more than 10.


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## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

1A/B/C. I really think you can make a very solid case for either LeBron, Kobe, or Wade as the best player in the league. Long story short, LeBron of course is just a physical beast. Puts up crazy stats almost every night. Kobe just proved by winning his 5th ring while having a very good playoffs that he's still up there. His drive is unmatched. Then Wade.. People are easy to forget just how dominant Wade can be. I mean, even in this 'down' year he still put up 33/7a/5r on 50%+ shooting on the Celtics in the playoffs. 

4. Chris Paul - Such an efficient scorer, and an elite passer. Has a chance to be an all time great. In fact, he will be if he goes back to 2007-2009 mode.

5. Pau Gasol - Oh yeah, at #5. This guy has gone from a really good player in Memphis to an elite player in LA. I think Kobe, Phil, and the 2008 NBA Finals have really made this guy so much tougher physically, and mentally. He's so much more consistent now, and could of arguably been the finals MVP. Very skilled in so many ways. Scoring, passing, rebounding, defense. Yeah, #5.

6. Dwight Howard - A beast on defense and on the boards. But the reason he's behind Gasol to me is because while there is a big gap between Howard and Gasol on defense. It's not nearly as big as the gap between Gasol and Howard on offense. At least Pau is a good defender. Howard on offense is just bad. 

7. Kevin Durant
8. Deron Williams
9. Dirk Nowitzki
10. Carmelo Anthony


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Since the season is over, I'm interested in how the elite players are viewed going into next season. What's your top 10, in order? *And you can't criticize anyone's list unless you do your own. *





HKF said:


> See when you have people like Jakain who put Dwight Howard as a 9th in the NBA, this goes to show to you how dumb even the "hardcore" fans are of this game. Orlando would never trade Howard for Wade, Paul, Durant or Kobe. Those guys are not better than him by themselves at all. Lebron is, but the other guys aren't (Kobe because of age).
> 
> *Just because a guy has a pretty PER*, whatever. Howard makes the Magic an immediate title contender, I can't say the same for anyone else in the league except Lebron and Kobe. Durant leads the league in scoring and is now better than Howard, how? Howard leads the league in shooting percentage, blocks, rebounding and gets his team to the conference Finals and the NBA Finals.





HKF said:


> I mean this guy has Deron Williams, Pau Gasol and Dirk ranked over Howard. Good lord.


See, when you have hardcore fans like *HKF* you have to question their motivation and intelligence when it comes to posting in general since they don't read the god damn OP and start posting without having a list of their own  Must be a Laker fan.... :bsmile:

Yea I'm no fan of Howard (as big of a surprise that must be) and Williams, Gasol, and Dirk are great players that all mean a ton for their teams...without 'em they probably aren't in the playoffs. Howard's got a great PER though just like most of the guys on the list but its not entirely based on PER since Kobe Bryant wasn't even a top 15 player in the reg season and he had nearly the same PER as Gasol in the playoffs but he's still higher on my rankings. I'd rank Gasol and Dirk over Howard, they're more complete players and have better overall games. 

Howard's really the only guy on this list that can't consistently score 1v1 and has proven to be a liability when it comes to not only offense but just staying on the court. Imo he took a few steps backwards by having so much trouble handling the Bobcats and didn't really show up for half of the ECF. But if Howard played with the focus and determination like he did the last 2 games of the ECF then I'll sing a different tune. Also not taking into account whether or not a team would trade a player otherwise you'd have to throw in contracts, team situation, health longevity, etc.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The way this reads, having Chris Paul gives you a better chance at winning than Dwight Howard and that's just wrong. You guys keep talking about scoring exclusively. You can't remove individual accomplishments from team accomplishments when making lists like this.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

HKF said:


> The way this reads, having Chris Paul gives you a better chance at winning than Dwight Howard and that's just wrong. You guys keep talking about scoring exclusively. You can't remove individual accomplishments from team accomplishments when making lists like this.


The way this reads, are you not making a list of your own? 

Just about everyone here has CP3 listed higher than Howard and about half have Durant higher as well. 

I'm not talking about scoring exclusively, thats why I rate players such as Gasol above him while giving him the identifier of being a superior overall player than Howard. Howard exhibited difficulty scoring 1v1, lacked focus for half the playoffs, and also had difficulty staying on the court. He's still a great player but I question his motor and ability to improve significantly since he had similar problems last year. However if he consistently played like the last 2 games of the ECF he'll change that. Team-wise, Howard has the luxury of a huge payroll and having a team tailor fit around his weaknesses - he isn't a go-to player like most of these names since he can be guarded 1v1 easier than the rest.

And these lists just aren't all that god damn serious anyway :bsmile:


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

LeBron
Kobe - stays here for now despite some noticeable decline
Howard - offensive issues exist but are overblown
Wade
Williams - undoubtedly the best point guard in the game
Nowitzki
Anthony
Durant - will soon make his way into the top 3 or 4 but isn't there yet
Paul
Gasol


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> And these lists just aren't all that god damn serious anyway :bsmile:


You still had the wackiest list in this thread. However because the OP said don't attack other people's list I'm just going to leave it at that.

I'm not a Howard fan but saying that he should be ranked lower because he can't score 1 on 1 deserves a chuckle.

Btw, I don't even think that statement holds true 90% of the time. There are probably 5 teams in the league that have the defense to guard Dwight 1 on 1. Just because he had trouble against one team doesn't mean he should have that label. Paul Pierce couldn't score on Ron Artest, does that mean VC could stop him one on one?


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> You still had the wackiest list in this thread. However because the OP said don't attack other people's list I'm just going to leave it at that.
> 
> I'm not a Howard fan but saying that he should be ranked lower because he can't score 1 on 1 deserves a chuckle.
> 
> Btw, I don't even think that statement holds true 90% of the time. There are probably 5 teams in the league that have the defense to guard Dwight 1 on 1. *Just because he had trouble against one team doesn't mean he should have that label*. Paul Pierce couldn't score on Ron Artest, does that mean VC could stop him one on one?


OP said you can attack other people's lists as long as you had one yourself. He had trouble against the Bobcats and Celtics in the playoffs and imo when we're talking about players of this caliber...not being able to stay on the court or score 1v1 is a liability. And by saying its the "whackiest" and that it "deserves a chuckle" is basically attacking I suppose. However you also ranked CP3 and Wade above Howard which HKF also wouldn't agree with.

Both you and HKF seem to focus on just scoring when I've repeated that those other players are imo better overall and also repeated Howard's tendency to have difficulty staying on the court as a key drawback compared to the rest of the guys on the list.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> You still had the wackiest list in this thread. However because the OP said don't attack other people's list I'm just going to leave it at that.


He said don't criticize a list if you haven't posted your own, which you have. So fire away big guy.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

GrandKenyon6 said:


> LeBron
> Kobe - stays here for now despite some noticeable decline
> Howard - offensive issues exist but are overblown
> Wade
> ...


Chris Paul as the 9th best player in the league is a joke, a very unfunny joke. I mean, you think Dirk is better then Chris? Really?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> OP said you can attack other people's lists as long as you had one yourself. He had trouble against the Bobcats and Celtics in the playoffs and imo when we're talking about players of this caliber...not being able to stay on the court or score 1v1 is a liability. And by saying its the "whackiest" and that it "deserves a chuckle" is basically attacking I suppose. However you also ranked CP3 and Wade above Howard which HKF also wouldn't agree with.


Howard struggled against the Bobcats because of foul trouble, it wasn't because he couldn't score 1v1. He did average close to 22 points against the Celtics, it wasn't like he was completely shut down or even close to that.

If HKF have a problem with my list he can speak for himself.

Just for the record, I didn't find your list funny, I found it wacky, which is another word for weird. What I found funny was your reasoning that he should be ranked lower because he couldn't score 1 on 1. I have not read or seen any credible source that indicates that a player's worth is defined by whether or not he can score 1 on 1. It doesn't determine what "Caliber" of a player that he is, it's just a weak attempt at sugarcoating your hate for the player.

The bottom line is out of all the players listed in this thread, there are only 5 guys that were the clear #1 guy of teams that went to the finals. That imo holds more water than some make up definition of what a player should or should not be able to do.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

Chris Paul not only has the ability to make things easier for his teammates and be extremely efficient in every offensive aspect possible, he can get shots for them that no other player can by completely breaking down and crippling the defense all the way out to the three point line. Couple that with the fact hes increasing the range on his shot, 40% from deep last year, and you have a player that certainly can be the cornerstone to a championship caliber team. Not many times your MVP runner up at the age of 23, and easily could have been co-mvp at that.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

GregOden said:


> Chris Paul as the 9th best player in the league is a joke, a very unfunny joke. I mean, you think Dirk is better then Chris? Really?


It's not a joke at all.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Mind, I don't know, explaining it? Seems pretty laughable to me.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> Howard struggled against the Bobcats because of foul trouble, it wasn't because he couldn't score 1v1. He did average close to 22 points against the Celtics, it wasn't like he was completely shut down or even close to that.


Not being able to score 1v1 and staying on the court were two problems Howard had in those series. By your reasoning then Pierce wasn't shut down either by Artest since he averaged I think 18 pts a game. Howard's able to get points but not 1v1 and its mostly off of put-backs and the like.



> If HKF have a problem with my list he can speak for himself.


Merely just referencing a point.


> Just for the record, I didn't find your list funny, I found it wacky, which is another word for weird. What I found funny was your reasoning that he should be ranked lower because he couldn't score 1 on 1. I have not read or seen any credible source that indicates that a player's worth is defined by whether or not he can score 1 on 1. It doesn't determine what "Caliber" of a player that he is, it's just a weak attempt at sugarcoating your hate for the player.
> 
> The bottom line is out of all the players listed in this thread, there are only 5 guys that were the clear #1 guy of teams that went to the finals. That imo holds more water than some make up definition of what a player should or should not be able to do.


I do hate Howard and I'm not sugarcoating it but when we're talking about potential MVP candidates, not being able to stay on the court or score 1v1 are still issues and are weaknesses. Basically no other player in that top 10 had the motor and mentality issues that Howard did.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> Not being able to score 1v1 and staying on the court were two problems Howard had in those series. By your reasoning then Pierce wasn't shut down either by Artest since he averaged I think 18 pts a game. Howard's able to get points but not 1v1 and its mostly off of put-backs and the like.


I have no problem with listing Howard's foul troubles as a weakness and a main factor of lowering his rankings. However, I don't see how not being able to score 1v1 should be that big of a negative. Not to mention the fact that he can score 1v1 against the majority of the teams in the league.



> I do hate Howard and I'm not sugarcoating it but when we're talking about potential MVP candidates, not being able to stay on the court or score 1v1 are still issues and are weaknesses. Basically no other player in that top 10 had the motor and mentality issues that Howard did.


If we're using that logic, no player in that list has won the defensive player award back to back. So does Dwight gets ranked #1 because he has that distinction?

Look, if you want to rank a player lower because you dislike him that's fine. However, making up reasons to why he shouldn't be higher is really unnecessary. So you ranked him 9th because you don't like him, big deal. You didn't put him there because he's the only one who couldn't score 1v1, why make that a reason? That's the part that I find humorous and it's funny that you keep arguing that point. 

Some players are good offensive players and some are good defensive players. There is no criteria that I know of that requires a guy to be able to score 1v1 in order to be considered an elite player.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Assuming everyone is healthy:

1) Kobe Bryant -- Never moved him down from my #1 spot, don't see why I should start doing it now.
2) Dwyane Wade -- Deserves more credit than what he gets.
3) LeBron James - Goes for the highlight play too often; still has things to learn. Kobe experienced growing pains, too.
4) Dwight Howard - Best defender and rebounder in the league.
5) Deron Williams - Best point in the game.
6) Kevin Durant - Quickly climbing this list.
7) Chris Paul - Much like LeBron his assist numbers are inflated, dribbles the ball too often and doesn't make the pass that leads to an assist for another player (hockey assist)
8) Carmelo Anthony -- Feels like I'm putting him too low. 
9) Steve Nash -- Deserves some love. 
10) Dirk/ Pau -- I think its closer than what people might think


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> I have no problem with listing Howard's foul troubles as a weakness and a main factor of lowering his rankings. However, I don't see how not being able to score 1v1 should be that big of a negative. Not to mention the fact that he can score 1v1 against the majority of the teams in the league.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Still being a top 10 player is fine for Howard, nearly half have him listed in the lower half of the top 10 or in the middle. There's not a huge gap between a lot of these players besides Lebron James as well and really most spots are arguable and interchangeable.

Howard does struggle 1v1 compared to the rest of these guys to the point where it is a liability especially since he has trouble staying on the court as well. You have to tailor a team to hide Howard's weaknesses and yes, of course he has huge defensive strengths. I didn't mention those since I ranked him low compared to everyone else, there's no set logic or some kind of detailed analysis going on with these top 10's here. However compared to the guys above him, his overall game is lacking particularly the foul trouble and not improving as much as he needed to from last year.

Hell, your own top 10 seemingly has no real logic or analysis as well since you just listed a bunch of names without so much as a word describing why.


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Jakain said:


> Still being a top 10 player is fine for Howard, nearly half have him listed in the lower half of the top 10 or in the middle. There's not a huge gap between a lot of these players besides Lebron James as well and really most spots are arguable and interchangeable.
> 
> Howard does struggle 1v1 compared to the rest of these guys to the point where it is a liability especially since he has trouble staying on the court as well. You have to tailor a team to hide Howard's weaknesses and yes, of course he has huge defensive strengths. I didn't mention those since I ranked him low compared to everyone else, there's no set logic or some kind of detailed analysis going on with these top 10's here. However compared to the guys above him, his overall game is lacking particularly the foul trouble and not improving as much as he needed to from last year.
> 
> Hell, your own top 10 seemingly has no real logic or analysis as well since you just listed a bunch of names without so much as a word describing why.


Howard's offense is not nearly as good as Gasol's, but since you only watch nationally televised Magic games, you only see the moves the coaches encourage Dwight to go to against great competition. While I'll admit consistency is some what of a problem, his post game is better than you think it is. Van Gundy's philosophy is to run the defense through Dwight and the offense through the other four guys out on the floor. I'll be the first one to admit, he played a ****ty, ****ty series against the Celtics, but in no way was he "exposed." If anything was exposed, it was our playing style and his free throw shooting. That is by far his biggest flaw. I was on the fence over whether the Magic should move Lewis back to the 3 and get a big 4 to pair with Dwight, but after watching the Lakers and Celtics rise to the top of their respective conferences, I'm even more impressed with how Tim Duncan did his thing with Robert Horry at the 4 in crunch time.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

1. Lebron James 
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwight Howard
-------------------- (I would not take a single player in the league over these three)
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Chris Paul
6. Deron Williams
7. Carmelo Anthony
8. Dirk Nowitzki
9. Steve Nash
10. Paul Pierce

See my problem with putting Durant that high is what he has he proven. Yes, he lead the league in scoring in the regular season, but then come playoff time he was totally embarrassed by Artest. He is a top ten player in the league, but until he proves it in the playoffs, no way I can rank him above the proven performers.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HKF said:


> Just because a guy has a pretty PER, whatever. Howard makes the Magic an immediate title contender, I can't say the same for anyone else in the league except Lebron and Kobe. Durant leads the league in scoring and is now better than Howard, how? Howard leads the league in shooting percentage, blocks, rebounding and gets his team to the conference Finals and the NBA Finals.


Dwight Howard got to the finals because Garnett was hurt. Otherwise, he has done the same thing as Chris Paul. Carry inferior teams into the playoffs and come up short. And the Magic got handled by the Lakers in 5 games. Those same Lakers improved this year, and Kevin Durant's Thunder still took them to 6 games and every game except 1 was incredibly competitive. I don't care what round it was. 

Dwight is different because he is the only player in the top 10 who does what he does, but you're overstating his impact.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Dwight Howard got to the finals because Garnett was hurt. Otherwise, he has done the same thing as Chris Paul. Carry inferior teams into the playoffs and come up short. And the Magic got handled by the Lakers in 5 games. Those same Lakers improved this year, and Kevin Durant's Thunder still took them to 6 games and every game except 1 was incredibly competitive. I don't care what round it was.
> 
> Dwight is different because he is the only player in the top 10 who does what he does, but you're overstating his impact.


Kevin Durant Thunder did play the Lakers well, but they lost too and he played pretty terrible. So why are you giving him brownie points? Look you like Durant and Paul, that's fine, but they are not more valuable or better than Dwight Howard. Howard has made the Magic contenders, which is astonishing considering he has carry overpaid wimps like Rashard Lewis and Vince Carter. 

I am not overstating his impact at all. Had the Magic been able to get any thing from Vince Carter and Rashard at all, they could have beaten the Celtics, they didn't, they lost. He performed well. Chris Paul had one good playoff run, then the next year, he was busy being locked up by Dahntay Jones. 

Durant looked like a rookie against Artest. If you take the personal biases out of it, no one is taking Chris Paul over Howard. If Paul is so damn good, how come New Orleans isn't even close to being a top 4 team in the West. I guarantee you New Orleans would trade Paul for Howard in an instant.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

You act like Howard has been setting a blaze during these playoff runs. He had some good games against the Celtics this year, but he couldn't even stay on the floor in any other series and the Magic still rolled. Kendrick Perkins locked him up last year.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> Still being a top 10 player is fine for Howard, nearly half have him listed in the lower half of the top 10 or in the middle. There's not a huge gap between a lot of these players besides Lebron James as well and really most spots are arguable and interchangeable.
> 
> Howard does struggle 1v1 compared to the rest of these guys to the point where it is a liability especially since he has trouble staying on the court as well.


It would be fine if you made the argument that because Howard's offense is so atrocious even if you factor in his defense he would still be a lesser player than the guys listed above him. However, your argument was because he is the only one in the list that cannot score 1v1, he should be ranked lower and I find that ridiculous. If you made an attempt to compare Howard's overall game as well as his personal and team achievements it would've been fine, however you chose to focus on the fact that he cannot score 1 on 1. That's the part I have a problem with.



> Hell, your own top 10 seemingly has no real logic or analysis as well since you just listed a bunch of names without so much as a word describing why.


If anyone has any issue with any of my placements I would be glad to provide an explanation.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> You act like Howard has been setting a blaze during these playoff runs. He had some good games against the Celtics this year, but he couldn't even stay on the floor in any other series and the Magic still rolled. Kendrick Perkins locked him up last year.


The point is, TO DATE, Kevin Durant and Chris Paul have not done more than him in the playoffs or regular season (Howard is a first team All-NBA player too), to warrant being above Howard and neither has had near the team success as well. 

Just admit because you are in OKC, you like those guys better, but they have not done anything to prove they are better than he is. You act like the Magic would have rolled without him. Howard dominated the Hawks and because the Bobcats were forced to foul him so much, they could never keep Orlando out of the penalty. 

Again Howard's calling card is on defense and on the boards. His value is not in scoring 30 points per game. Case in point, if Durant can't do that, he's pretty much worthless out there. Dare I say, in that Thunder series, the best two players for OKC were Westbrook and Ibaka and that was clear as day.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HKF said:


> Just admit because you are in OKC, you like those guys better.


Okay man, we'll see next season how your argument holds up that Durant isn't even a top 10 player. It's not like I'm the only one in this thread who thinks Durant and Paul are better than Howard, but I guess we all live in OKC.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Okay man, we'll see next season how your argument holds up that Durant isn't even a top 10 player. It's not like I'm the only one in this thread who thinks Durant and Paul are better than Howard, but I guess we all live in OKC.


More than anything it comes down to team need and personal preference. Theres obvious anomalies where peoples biases shine through too much, but if given the keys to a fantasy draft where you could pick your cornerstone player, never will there be a time when there is a consensus pick between the likes of paul/durant/howard. It's up to interpretation as to who can be the most successful starting block. I feel like Howard is much close to plateauing into the player he will be for his career in comparison to the other two, however.


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## Nightmute (Apr 12, 2007)

The problem with HKF's argument is that your comparing players across positions. Dwight does effect the game in much different ways, and I guess that makes his presence more important but that's more due to his size and the position he plays. Just because he impacts the game through arguably the most important position in basketball, by being big and athletic, does that mean he plays basketball better than someone like Chris Paul? Maybe, maybe not. But it's unfair to ask Chris Paul to impact that game the same way Dwight Howard does, just like it would be unfair to ask Dwight Howard to bring the ball up the floor and create plays or run a fast break.

Ultimatley there's no point in numbering the order in which you rank players, because how can you quantify what makes one player better than another especially when comparing players across positions; when talking about the cream of the crop the NBA has to offer there's nothing you can unanimously say that makes say Dwayne Wade better than Kobe or Paul better than Deron it's better to just say they're there among the top 10 or 15 best players in the NBA. Anyways here's my list, in no numerical order.

Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Dwyane Wade
Dwight Howard
Dirk Nowitzki
Kevin Durant
Carmelo Anthony
Chris Paul
Deron Williams
Tim Duncan


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## Nightmute (Apr 12, 2007)

I'm not too happy with my list, but it's the best I could come up with. I guess you could take some players out and add Brandon Roy, Pau Gasol, Steve Nash and such. Although which players are up to your preference, as for me I'm not entirely sure.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

HKF said:


> The point is, TO DATE, Kevin Durant and Chris Paul have not done more than him in the playoffs or regular season (Howard is a first team All-NBA player too), to warrant being above Howard and neither has had near the team success as well.
> 
> Just admit because you are in OKC, you like those guys better, but they have not done anything to prove they are better than he is. You act like the Magic would have rolled without him. Howard dominated the Hawks and because the Bobcats were forced to foul him so much, they could never keep Orlando out of the penalty.
> 
> Again Howard's calling card is on defense and on the boards. His value is not in scoring 30 points per game. Case in point, if Durant can't do that, he's pretty much worthless out there. Dare I say, in that Thunder series, the best two players for OKC were Westbrook and Ibaka and that was clear as day.


Stop acting like Durant can't play a lick of defense. Being able to average 1.4 steals and a block a game is impressive, and you can't say he was just gambling for all of those and got them by shear volume. You know he got those numbers while playing within a team concept. And frankly, I would expect his defense to be on the rise in the next couple of years. He's got all the tools to be a fantastic defender, and he's been starting to put them together more so each year.

To flip it around, do you think the Magic would have beat the Bobcats and Hawks with Gortat starting at C? I do. And I'm a huge Hawks homer. Do you think the Hornets would have made the playoffs if Chris Paul had been injured and Darren Collison started for the Hornets? What if he put up great numbers? Me personally, I think they'd miss the playoffs and be 8 games under .500.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

That still doesn't mean those guys are better RIGHT NOW! Which is exactly my point. Yes, you guys are all influenced by pretty jumpers and smooth cross-overs that you aren't looking at the impact on wins and losses. This isn't that hard. Their stats don't dwarf Howard's across the board in anyway, but his team success is also substantially better than both, so why are they better than him? Especially considering he's the best defender in the entire league.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Okay to turn this around, why is Kevin Durant better than Carmelo Anthony right this moment? Please explain that to me.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Durant is a better scorer and defender than Carmelo, while everything else is basically a standstill (Durant is a better rebounder, but it's close enough). I mean, this past season he averaged 5 more points, scored more efficiently, shot better from the free throw line while getting there more often, and shot better from the three point line while shooting a higher volume of them. 

I mean, what is even the argument for Carmelo anyway?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

So when we rank players now, we don't count playoff performances as well? Basically we just assume that Durant will get better, when history tells us that players tend to have their best offensive statistical seasons within their first 3-5 years in the league. Heck, Melo had a 30 ppg season as well in his career. Also how do you figure that Durant is a better defender than Melo? Where does this come from?


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

HKF said:


> That still doesn't mean those guys are better RIGHT NOW! Which is exactly my point. Yes, you guys are all influenced by pretty jumpers and smooth cross-overs that you aren't looking at the impact on wins and losses. This isn't that hard. Their stats don't dwarf Howard's across the board in anyway, but his team success is also substantially better than both, so why are they better than him? Especially considering he's the best defender in the entire league.


reflecting back to 07-08 when we had quite possibly the most competitive conference/division battle in any major sport ever, the hornets were 1 game away from being the best in the west. They then demolished a 50 win mavs team and were one game away from the wcf. Things have gone downhill since then but more than anything that can be translated to former key players becoming completely irrelevant and the obvious injuries, not some kind of regression of skill from paul. In terms of right now, its certainly a question mark since cp3 is coming off a major surgery, but my gut tells me he's gonna turn in an awe-inspiring season next year to silence the haters.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I'm not even a Chris Paul hater. Me not thinking he's better than Dwight Howard or Kobe Bryant, is not hating. There just seems to be a lot of subjectivity in this thread. Dwight Howard's accomplishments are minimized, while Paul and Durant's are maximized, even if you put all guys up for grabs anyone who was trying to get to the championship would take Howard first. 

This doesn't mean that they can't become better or more valuable in the grand scheme, but as of TODAY, why are they better?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

At this moment Anthony and Durant are pretty similar...And relatively one dimensional if you want to compare them to the very best players in the league. Difference is that Durant made a massive improvement last year, essentially answering almost every question people like myself had about him. He was a more efficient scorer last year, but you'd rate him higher in the knowledge that he fits the profile of a lot of other players who became really really good. You just have to believe that he's the sort of guy who is driven to get better. He just showed us that...And since he and Melo are even right now you have to think Durant is going to blow right past him next year.


By the way...How did Howard get better than Duncan? Like today...Like this year...Right now. How is Howard the superathletic freak better than Tim Duncan...The basketball player?


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Durant is a better perimeter scorer by miles, his moves are so smooth. Melo has a better post game at the moment, but Durant is better in every other facet of scoring IMO. He's almost 3 inches taller and has nearly a 5 inch advantage in terms of wingspan...and he's already playing better defense three years into his career.

I don't really get how you think Carmelo is better in any way shape or form. Durant is the better three point shooter by leaps and bounds (Melo shot 31.6% on 2.7 attempts per game versus Durants 36.5% on 4.3 attempts a game). He's also a far, far better free throw shooter (Durant shot 90% from the line on 10.2 attempts a game versus Melo's 83% on 8.9 attempts).

So you're really asking what the difference is? I think it's pretty obvious, especially considering Durant is 5 years younger and seemingly still has room to grow.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HKF said:


> So when we rank players now, we don't count playoff performances as well?


Sure, you count them when you get a good sample size. Kobe had a worse series than Durant in that series. If that was Kobe's only series, one would expect that he comes up short in the playoffs. Sample size tells us that it was a bad matchup because he has played well in other series'. Holding it against Durant that he had a bad series against the best 1 on 1 wing defender in the league is crazy. 

As far as impact, Durant had a better +/- than Howard, which is impact at it's rawest. He was #2 in the league in overall win shares behind only LeBron James. That's whats going on *right now*, as you say. Durant was better than Howard for the whole season.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

It wasn't a small sample size at all (6 games), considering you said Dwight didn't play well against Charlotte. Durant didn't have one above average playoff game against the Lakers. You can't simply negate the playoffs because it makes Durant look worse.

Six games is enough time to play one good game. Durant didn't shoot well in any of them.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

HKF said:


> I'm not even a Chris Paul hater. Me not thinking he's better than Dwight Howard or Kobe Bryant, is not hating. There just seems to be a lot of subjectivity in this thread. Dwight Howard's accomplishments are minimized, while Paul and Durant's are maximized, even if you put all guys up for grabs anyone who was trying to get to the championship would take Howard first.
> 
> This doesn't mean that they can't become better or more valuable in the grand scheme, but as of TODAY, why are they better?


It's obviously a valid question considering the rarity of having the best defensive big man in the league who is not a complete liability on the other end of the court. However, Chris Paul simply does NOT lose games for you. No missed free throws, no stupid fouls, no turnover issues. He commands double teams as much or possibly more than dwight, and can effectively convert these opportunities into points for his team either by splitting the D or getting his teammate the open look. Chris has ungodly court vision and can generally see what the defense is gonna attempt before getting into their set. He's certainly a capable defender, not earth shattering but he'll certainly keep the person hes guarding in check, and he obviously reads passing lanes with the best of em. I feel like his all-around skill set is an absolute rarity, but dwight has his own obvious intangibles as well. Like I stated it's really just personal preference in the eye of the beholder.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

I don't really understand your argument. Are you saying Durant is incapable of playing well in the playoffs?


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

HKF said:


> It wasn't a small sample size at all (6 games), considering you said Dwight didn't play well against Charlotte. Durant didn't have one above average playoff game against the Lakers. You can't simply negate the playoffs because it makes Durant look worse.
> 
> Six games is enough time to play one good game. Durant didn't shoot well in any of them.


Kobe was pretty mediocre that series too, and he was the eventual NBA Finals MVP. What's your point?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Look, Greg Oden is the same guy who said Danny Granger is better than Carmelo Anthony, so anything he says is invalid anyway. I never said Durant is not capable of playing well in the playoffs. I am saying TO DATE he has yet to prove he's better than Dwight Howard when it matters most, yet you guys rank him over D-12. In what universe would he be taken before Dwight Howard, if every player was available?


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Tooeasy said:


> It's obviously a valid question considering the rarity of having the best defensive big man in the league who is not a complete liability on the other end of the court. However, Chris Paul simply does NOT lose games for you. No missed free throws, no stupid fouls, no turnover issues. He commands double teams as much or possibly more than dwight, and can effectively convert these opportunities into points for his team either by splitting the D or getting his teammate the open look. Chris has ungodly court vision and can generally see what the defense is gonna attempt before getting into their set. He's certainly a capable defender, not earth shattering but he'll certainly keep the person hes guarding in check, and he obviously reads passing lanes with the best of em. I feel like his all-around skill set is an absolute rarity, but dwight has his own obvious intangibles as well. Like I stated it's really just personal preference in the eye of the beholder.


So like others here, you also believe Kevin Durant is better than Dwight Howard?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

By the logic you're using, Dwight Howard has yet to prove he is better than Tim Duncan when it matters most. Therefore he is more valuable in 2011? I just don't get that. If we're looking at next year, who cares about 2010...unless you feel like said player is incapable of performing in the playoffs both now and for the future.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

The season is over and I assumed who are the top 10 players now that the season is over. Yes, now that the season is over, I don't see how Durant is better than Howard. Tim Duncan while still great, just can't be counted on to carry his team offensively or defensively night in and night out, so of course Howard is better than him.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Switch Granger and Carmelo and the Nuggets would still be where they are, losing too early in the playoffs. I still think you can argue them on a talent level, but that's besides the point. I love how you completely abandoned the Durant vs Melo discussion as soon as you realized how wrong you were, and tried to cover it up with a lame attack at credibility. 

Howard has done more in the playoffs than Durant, fact. He's also been in the league for three more years, and has been on a better team. I mean, I think it's funny you can rank Howard ahead of Wade without blinking, but putting Durant ahead of Melo is blasphemous. Wade has won a championship, Howard hasn't. Wade has proved he can carry a team all the way through the playoffs by shear talent and willpower. Mind explaining that?


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

HKF said:


> So like others here, you also believe Kevin Durant is better than Dwight Howard?


I cant bring myself to look past the progression that Durant has made in such a short time. OKC was a 50 win team that came outta nowhere last year and its pretty obvious Durant was the main contributor to that. If we are talking playoff success for next season I would bank on Howard based on the easier conference and overall team makeup, but Durant individually will be the more impressive performer night in and out. As it stands hes failed to score in double digits only 2 games in the last two seasons, and that 90% from the line clip is ridiculous. I, like a lot of fans may put too much emphasis on offense as oppose to defense... but on the same token, Its pretty split in terms of NBA champion teams being built around legit all around big men as opposed to legit all around perimeter players, so who knows??


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Wade can't stay healthy and is on the downward slope of his career. Also, if Granger is so good, how come the Pacers can't make the playoffs in the East (I know Granger personally and even I don't believe he's as good as Melo). 

See Melo vs. Durant isn't a slam dunk victory for Durant at all. He shoots 7% better from the free throw line, but you know Durant has more in common with Melo than you think. If he doesn't get better bigs around him, there's a good chance he loses in the first round year after year as well, because when his jumper isn't falling, he's practically useless (as we saw in the Lakers series).


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Man I understand your defensive anchor over a scoring wing argument. That's a valid argument. I don't understand this need for Durant to acquire all this playoff experience before you can say he is better than Pierce. Pierce is like Duncan, he cannot be relied upon to carry his team night in night out anymore. Yeah, he is more playoff accomplished than Durant, but so is Duncan compared to Howard. The comparison is the same. Leaving Durant out of the top 5 is fine. Leaving him out of the top 10 in favor of clearly inferior players is puzzling.


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## Knick Killer (Jul 16, 2006)

1. Lebron James
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwight Howard
4. Kevin Durant
5. Dwyane Wade
6. Chris Paul
7. Carmelo Anthony
8. Dirk Nowitzki
9. Deron Williams
10. Steve Nash


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Durant was useless when he wasn't scoring? Did you even watch that series? Durant basically won a game himself down the stretch with crucial buckets and also shutting Kobe down in crunchtime. He had 4 blocks one game. He had 19 rebounds another game. He was doing other things despite shooting terribly. 

I'm going to save this thread. I usually agree with you fooey but I think you're shortchanging Durant by leaving him out of the top 10 for next season. We'll see.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

HKF said:


> Wade can't stay healthy and is on the downward slope of his career. Also, if Granger is so good, how come the Pacers can't make the playoffs in the East (I know Granger personally and even I don't believe he's as good as Melo).
> 
> See Melo vs. Durant isn't a slam dunk victory for Durant at all. He shoots 7% better from the free throw line, but you know Durant has more in common with Melo than you think. If he doesn't get better bigs around him, there's a good chance he loses in the first round year after year as well, because when his jumper isn't falling, he's practically useless (as we saw in the Lakers series).


Wade can't stay healthy...during the regular season. That's not what you were talking about. You're indirectly avoiding the hypocrisy in the argument that you're trying to stand behind.

Your only claim to Durant vs Melo being closer is a 7% difference in FT%? Which is in Durant's favor? And Durant gets there more frequently? Yet you don't even have Durant in your top 10? I'm not following.


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## Dee-Zy (Jan 12, 2006)

I believe that Durant is the god of bball and I have made claims as bold as that he will be the best player in the league at one point but he is not better than Wade right now.

Kobe
Bron
Wade
Dwight
Paul
Durant
Dirk
Deron
STAT

Dwight and Paul are interchangeable, Durant is only a hair away, Dirk loses points because he's a choker and STAT is interchangeable with Roy.

I am basing my selection on who I would pick first to win a chip right now. Kobe is still better than Bron right now. I hesitate on putting Bron over Wade but just because of record and stats I put him ahead. The next guys are the unproven guys. I put Dwight over Paul just because he is more proven because he made the finals and he is a dominant big man and when building a team, history has shown that building around a dominant big man is easier to win a chip than around a dominant guard (Read AI).

Durant, Dirk, Deron and STAT well, Durant has proven the less but I have faith in him most, Dirk has shown that he cannot step up in crunch time. Deron and STAT well they are just up there as the top 10 in the league.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

It's tough u know. James will always be no.1 as he is a full court basketball player. Full court basketball player is more noticable in regular reason games.


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## hroz (Mar 4, 2006)

I have to go:

LeBron
Wade
CP3
Kobe
Deron
Durant
Dwight
Carmelo
Stoudemire
Roy-Nowitzki

Thats the best I could do.


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## GrandKenyon6 (Jul 19, 2005)

Kevin Durant isn't better than Carmelo Anthony. Not right now. He will be in the future, possibly even as soon as next year, but he's not there yet.

Comparing Danny Granger to Carmelo Anthony is completely absurd.

And Chris Paul isn't anywhere close to the player that Dwight Howard is. Nor is he close to the player Deron Williams is.


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## Wilt_The_Stilt (Jun 7, 2002)

LeBron
Kobe
Howard
Wade
Paul
Williams
Durant
Nowitzki
Melo
Roy


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

This is supposed to be "going in to next season", so I'm taking into account some anticipated progress from the younger guys:


1. Lebron James
2. Dwight Howard
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Chris Paul
6. Deron Williams
7. Kevin Durant
8. Dirk Nowitzki
9. Pau Gasol
10. Carmelo Anthony

... I did that off the top of my head, so it is far from scientific.

I will say for the record that Derrick Rose > Brandon Roy, and I entertained putting Rose on this list out of pure homer-dom.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HKF said:


> That still doesn't mean those guys are better RIGHT NOW! Which is exactly my point. Yes, you guys are all influenced by pretty jumpers and smooth cross-overs that you aren't looking at the impact on wins and losses. This isn't that hard. Their stats don't dwarf Howard's across the board in anyway, but his team success is also substantially better than both, so why are they better than him? Especially considering he's the best defender in the entire league.


Seriously though, how do you feel about how easy it is to contain him offensively?


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Dre™ said:


> Seriously though, how do you feel about how easy it is to contain him offensively?


Easy?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Relatively. He was relegated to whining about fouls and spinning out of bounds when playoff defense got to him.

He can't really pass out of doubleteams and he can't post up on players his size. The only big scoring nights he has are against smaller players, or defenses slow to rotate that allow him to consistently be fed. That's fine for the regular season but he's going to be consistently shut down come playoff time because those are the teams with stout interior defense.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

I guess it's easy when you have a Kendrick Perkins, Rasheed Wallace and Kevin Garnett sure, but if you don't have all those guys who has contained Howard. Don't dare say the Bobcats, this dude picked up so many cheap offensive fouls it was ridiculous.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Dre™ said:


> Relatively. He was relegated to whining about fouls and spinning out of bounds when playoff defense got to him.
> 
> He can't really pass out of doubleteams and he can't post up on players his size. The only big scoring nights he has are against smaller players, or defenses slow to rotate that allow him to consistently be fed. That's fine for the regular season but he's going to be consistently shut down come playoff time because those are the teams with stout interior defense.


This is just not true. He doesn't have one legitimate passer on the team now that Turkoglu is gone. Also, he was not shut down in this playoffs at all. Rashard Lewis and Vince Carter did not come to play against the Celtics. Is that Howard's fault as well, considering he has to mask their defensive deficiencies?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Like I said...championship level teams are gonna have those top flight defenders...that's what makes them championship level.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Yes, but what you said didn't happen this year. Howard acquitted himself well in the playoffs. Considering Vince didn't have one good playoff series at all and Lewis is now an albatross. Howard played dominant defense even when his offense wasn't always there, which gave his team a chance to win. Hence those games where he had six+ blocks and intimidated another 10.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Dre™;6303681 said:


> Relatively. He was relegated to whining about fouls and spinning out of bounds when playoff defense got to him.
> 
> He can't really pass out of doubleteams and he can't post up on players his size. The only big scoring nights he has are against smaller players, or defenses slow to rotate that allow him to consistently be fed. That's fine for the regular season but he's going to be consistently shut down come playoff time because those are the teams with stout interior defense.


He scored 21 ppg on *84%* from the field against the Hawks and 21.8 ppg on 56% from the field against the Celtics. I'm not so sure you can call that 'containing' him, let alone containing him easily.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HKF said:


> This is just not true. He doesn't have one legitimate passer on the team now that Turkoglu is gone. Also, he was not shut down in this playoffs at all. Rashard Lewis and Vince Carter did not come to play against the Celtics. Is that Howard's fault as well, considering he has to mask their defensive deficiencies?


The passing point is legitimate, but if he's such an unquestioned first tier player, shouldn't he be able to score by himself? 

This was never an issue for Duncan, Shaq, KG, any of the franchise bigs of the 90s..he does a lot on defense and rebounding, that's what has him on the first tier, but he's probably the most offensively limited player considered first tier that I've seen in a long time.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Shaq didn't play with Penny, Kobe, Wade, Nash and Lebron? Shaq never received good entry passes? Everything was strictly one on one at all times? Also Tim Duncan is just flat out a better basketball player than Dwight Howard (at least in comparison to Howard at this stage). Shaq has always played with a first team All-NBA perimeter player and you can't discount the good fortune he's had in that regard.

I know people love Shaq, but how the hell did he never lead the league in rebounds or blocked shots. As long as he got buckets right? Am I supposed to believe that Dwight Howard couldn't win a bunch of titles too if he teamed up with Lebron or Wade?


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

Howard isn't better than Duncan today. He'll never be close to what Duncan was before he got old.

Really the ball is in the air. What will I get from Howard tonight? Five fouls...That seems very likely. Beyond that who the **** knows. He'll be better than guys half his size who aren't as quick as him...Well he should. How can you claim a guy is a great basketball player when only a fool would rely upon him to be great tonight. Yes he might be great...And he might give you absolutely nothing except a bunch of foolish plays.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Sure, you count them when you get a good sample size. *Kobe had a worse series than Durant in that series.* If that was Kobe's only series, one would expect that he comes up short in the playoffs. Sample size tells us that it was a bad matchup because he has played well in other series'. Holding it against Durant that he had a bad series against the best 1 on 1 wing defender in the league is crazy.
> 
> As far as impact, Durant had a better +/- than Howard, which is impact at it's rawest. He was #2 in the league in overall win shares behind only LeBron James. That's whats going on *right now*, as you say. Durant was better than Howard for the whole season.


That isn't true at all. They were probably both very similar, in terms of effectiveness, for every game in that series minus two: Durant was clearly better in Game 3, and Kobe was clearly better in Game 6.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HKF said:


> Shaq didn't play with Penny, Kobe, Wade, Nash and Lebron? Shaq never received good entry passes? Everything was strictly one on one at all times? Also Tim Duncan is just flat out a better basketball player than Dwight Howard (at least in comparison to Howard at this stage). Shaq has always played with a first team All-NBA perimeter player and you can't discount the good fortune he's had in that regard.
> 
> I know people love Shaq, but how the hell did he never lead the league in rebounds or blocked shots. As long as he got buckets right? Am I supposed to believe that Dwight Howard couldn't win a bunch of titles too if he teamed up with Lebron or Wade?


:laugh: I'm not saying Shaq didn't get help, don't run away from my point..I'm saying this:

When Shaq..Duncan..Hakeem and such did have one on one situations they could get it done. Dwight cannot. Period.

I'm not talking about Dwight in general, I'm speaking on that particular aspect o the game.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

If you define best player as who would you take to win 1 game or a playoff series, Howard would go 3rd or 4th, no matter who was doing the drafting. If you had a playoff tournament and every team drafted a 12-man roster, he would go no lower than 4th. A few teams would probably rather build around Wade, but Howard would be the likely pick at 3. It seems some people have no concept as to what kind of value he has at the defensive end.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

It's not about 1 game or playoff series, it's about 82 games a year plus the playoffs. Like Patchwork said here a long time ago, if it's about 1 game, of course Duncan could muster everything he had left and put up 30/15/5 no problem. But the most valuable players are the ones who can consistently produce over the grind of a season. It's unfair to guys who've put in work all year to try to make it "one game".


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

OK, if you define "best player" by who would you take to have the most success in 1 regular season + 1 playoffs, Howard would still be picked 3rd or 4th. The only way it changes is if you are talking about the long term, where you have to take into account age and durability.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

GrandKenyon6 said:


> Kevin Durant isn't better than Carmelo Anthony. Not right now. He will be in the future, possibly even as soon as next year, but he's not there yet.


Instead of just blindly throwing that out, would you mind backing it up with any kind of logic or reasoning? Kevin Durant was better than Carmelo Anthony _last year_, so I really don't think it's stretch to say he'll continue to be better seeing as he's only 21. At this point, the only thing Melo does better is pass.

Seeing as I have a couple of minutes until the draft starts, I think I'll break this down for you.

Durant scores more points at a better percentage from the field. He's miles ahead of Melo in terms of three point shooting (Durant shot 36.5% on 351 attempts versus Melo shooting 31.6% on 187 attempts). Last year Melo had a career best in terms of getting to the free throw line and converting, and Durant still out-shined him. Melo shot 83% from the line, averaging 8.9 attempts a game. Durant shot 90% from the line, averaging 10.2 attempts a game. 

Durant is superior offensively, he grabs more rebounds, and he blocks more shots. Durant has a better PER, TS%, eFG%, and a better win shares. You can't even argue team success anymore, because there was what, two games separating these teams in the regular season? And they both lost in the first round in six games? 

I'm not sure how or why people are trying to argue Carmelo is better than Durant.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

GrandKenyon6 said:


> And Chris Paul isn't anywhere close to the player that Dwight Howard is. Nor is he close to the player Deron Williams is.


Chris Paul isn't even close to Deron Williams? That's absurd.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

There's no damn difference between Williams or Paul. One is just bigger, so I take the bigger one.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Dre™ said:


> There's no damn difference between Williams or Paul. One is just bigger, so I take the bigger one.


One is faster/quicker. I'll take the faster/quicker one who can get to any spot on the floor easier.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

That's not an issue for Deron. It's "easier" for Paul, but it's not difficult for Deron.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

And Paul does anything he wants without being bigger. So who cares about that?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Size matters on defense, and in general you ask any coach and they'd rather just have the bigger guy if the differences are negligible.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Dre™ said:


> Size matters on defense


Quickness/speed matters on defense. Point is that size doesn't hinder Paul from doing anything. Size is only as good as what you use it for. I mean, Williams is bigger but Paul is a better rebounder, so what's size? Chris Paul doesn't get posted up anymore than Williams. Point guards just don't post up anymore anyways. 

Paul has Williams beat in every category. Williams is a great player but people sleep on how good Paul really is.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

So it doesn't matter that bigger point guards can abuse Paul down into the post but can't do the same to Deron?


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Dre™ said:


> and in general you ask any coach and they'd rather just have the bigger guy if the differences are negligible.


Aa far as this, going into this past season, 80% of the general managers had Paul as the best point guard in the league.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

The same GMs who get fired every 2 years.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Dre™ said:


> So it doesn't matter that bigger point guards can abuse Paul down into the post but can't do the same to Deron?


Nobody is abusing Paul in the post. Point guards nowadays have zero post game, and Paul is too scrappy and good with his hands. For every bucket he gets scored on, he is probably forcing 2 turnovers. The league doesn't have Gary Payton, Mark Jackson or Sam Cassell anymore.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Deron routinely does it.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Dre™ said:


> The same GMs who get fired every 2 years.


You used your perception of what you think coaches _would_ say about Paul/Deron. I used actual evidence of what GM's have said. I was just pointing that out.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

So you literally believe it's a wash, outside of size? Could I ask why? I mean, can you actually back that up or is that just some gut feeling.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

And no, Deron doesn't "routinely" post up Paul. You just made that up. They stick to pick and roll basketball like always.


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## girllovesthegame (Nov 3, 2005)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Aa far as this, going into this past season, 80% of the general managers had Paul as the best point guard in the league.



Yes Sir. (Game show host voice) Survey says...


http://www.nba.com/news/features/gmsurvey.players/index.html


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

GregOden said:


> So you literally believe it's a wash, outside of size? Could I ask why? I mean, can you actually back that up or is that just some gut feeling.


I've said it before in many threads. 

They both can see everything on the court. They both can manipulate and create passing lanes. Both are good overall defenders. Paul is a slightly better rebounder...Williams a slightly better overall scorer. It's really negligible to me.

I'm debating SP for the hell of it basically.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Right, and it was 90% the year before. Paul is not way ahead of Deron, but it's a clear advantage. He is literally better than Deron at everything (by a small margin).


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> And no, Deron doesn't "routinely" post up Paul. You just made that up. They stick to pick and roll basketball like always.


I did not make that up, but how am I supposed to prove otherwise unless I go to wait for their first matchup this season and tape it?

And yes, "routinely" might be a strong word, but it's available for Williams to do. If he wasn't so talented other places, he _could_ routinely use his size against Paul if he needed to.

Then again Paul could probably get by Williams any time he needed to, so once again..let's just agree to disagree here. 

Once you get to the 99th percentile of basketball point guards on planet earth there's just not going to be a lot that separates the two.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Williams is a slightly better overall scorer? How so?

Paul had a better FG% on a higher number of attempts while shooting nearly 41% on 2.8 three pointers a game. Williams shot a lower FG% on less attempts and shot 37.1% from the 3 point line on 3.4 attempts a game. 

Paul was even injured last year and you I'd say he was better offensively. If you compare Paul's 08-09 season to ANY season by Williams it is _seriously_ not as close as people seem to think.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Once you get to the 99th percentile of basketball point guards on planet earth there's just not going to be a lot that separates the two.

You're giving me stats, I'm giving you an evaluation of what they do and how it translates on the basketball court, and I'm telling you the overall difference of their impact to a basketball team is negligible.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

That's a super vague answer that completely dodges any factual information. You're essentially just saying that you would prefer Deron on your team, despite any actual evidence to back up your gut feeling.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

And that would be true under the pretense that I'm not a credible evaluator of who can do what well on a basketball court based off observing. 

I put my reputation on what I see and understand against circumstantial stats (with minimal difference) any day, and that's why I usually stay out of these player debates unless goaded into one. What makes stats a "factual" basis on who's better, especially when the differences aren't substantial? Especially when you consider you're talking two different rosters with two different coaches/systems...

You have your numbers, I have time spent watching the two and realizing that if you were to put Paul on a team for 41 and Williams on a team for 41, there'd be minimal difference in the quality of that team or the PGs' overall impact on how the game produces. It might sound crazy, but that's what I believe. I have confidence in my assessments, otherwise I wouldn't be posting here.

But like I said a minute ago, let's agree to disagree.


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## Damian Necronamous (Jun 10, 2002)

1. Kobe
1A. LeBron
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Chris Paul
--------------- <--- I think the real separation is here. These top 4 can dominate the game on offense and defense on a regular basis. Dwight's lack of a truly complete post game prevents him from being in this tier.

5. Dwight Howard
6. Dirk Nowitzki
7. Deron Williams
8. Pau Gasol
9. Kevin Durant
10. Carmelo Anthony
11. Steve Nash
12. Chris Bosh
13. Tim Duncan
14. Brandon Roy
15. Amare Stoudemire

Joe Johnson, Carlos Boozer, Danny Granger, Rajon Rondo, Paul Pierce and Derrick Rose are my next guys (in no particular order).


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Jakain said:


> 1. Lebron - Still easily the best player in the league.
> 
> 2. Wade - Impressive 33 points/6.8 assists/ 5.6 rebounds/56% shooting against Boston. Bigger and better version of Rose minus the FT accuracy.
> 
> ...


Kobe isn't as athletic as he was 4-5 years ago, but the surgery this summer isn't going to accelerate that decline. It is arthroscopic, which is minor compared to major stuff like microfacture.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

I think it's a wash. I prefer Deron's size just because there's less ways for him to be exploited(in any given matchup), but CP3 is still a beast. It's hard to argue against CP3 statistically tho(impossible really), but I just like what DWill brings. 

It's kind've similar with Kobe and LBJ... Have fun finding any stats that show Kobe as a better shooter or volume scorer, despite the fact that it is the pop belief of most who watch. You could do it with Pau vs Dwigh, too. Statistically Dwight is better, no contest. But some ppl who watch w/o looking at stats might want to put Pau above Dwight, because they like the way he scores or the versatility, moreso than the production. 




Jakain said:


> 1. Lebron - Still easily the best player in the league.
> 
> 2. Wade - Impressive 33 points/6.8 assists/ 5.6 rebounds/56% shooting against Boston. Bigger and better version of Rose minus the FT accuracy.
> 
> ...


I will say this though. I cant fathom how someone who puts LBJ over Kobe, but not rank Dwight over Pau. That is terribly inconsistent, Jakain. At least be consistent, that's all I ask. You ask why I always question your opinions on Dwight, it's not because i'm obsessed with Dwight, it's because your logic is always poor, and fluctuates depending on the players you like. 

How can you rank LBJ over Kobe, but not rank Dwight over Pau Gasol? What is the standard? Are you going by stats, or what is the logic?? If you like finesse, than how the is Kobe not #1? If you like efficiency and stats, then how is Dwight not even a top 2 big on the list? I would love to hear the rational for it. Seems like you are just ranking your favorite players to me, not using any kind consistent metric. Pretty confusing list.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> What's your top 10, in order? And you can't criticize anyone's list unless you do your own.



Did you even post a top 10 yet or are you like HKF and not read the god damn OP? Talking to the Howard fan of course 



Blue Magic said:


> I will say this though. I cant fathom how someone who puts LBJ over Kobe, but not rank Dwight over Pau. That is terribly inconsistent, Jakain. At least be consistent, that's all I ask. You ask why I always question your opinions on Dwight, it's not because i'm obsessed with Dwight, it's because your logic is always poor, and fluctuates depending on the players you like.
> 
> How can Rank LBJ over Kobe, but not rank Dwight over Pau Gasol? Are you going by stats, or what? What is the logic?? If you like finesse, than how the is Kobe not #1? If you like efficiency, then how is Dwight not even a top 2 big on the list? I would love to hear the rational for it. Seems like you are just ranking your favorite players to me, not using any kind consistent metric. Pretty confusing list.


I'm going by because its my top 10 

I also don't see how Dwight/Pau and LBJ/Kobe seem to match up at all; those guys don't really compare.

Dwight is ranked below Pau because he's a worse basketball player than he is. Dwight's a great athlete but as a basketball player you can't expect him to score or stay on the court like you can with just about everyone else in the top 10. Those are almost inexcusable weaknesses for players of this level and Howard's had a few years to work on that. Seemed to also have regressed from last year, mostly when it comes to staying on the court.


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Jakain said:


> Did you even post a top 10 yet or are you like HKF and not read the god damn OP?


Uh...he created the OP and put his top 10 in it...or are you being sarcastic (and really bad at it, might I add)?


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Basel said:


> Uh...he created the OP and put his top 10 in it...or are you being sarcastic (and really bad at it, might I add)?


Made a ninja edit, if you read on you'd realize I was talking to Blue_Howard. Also quoted that bit earlier against that laker fan, HKF since he did the same thing it seems unless I'm missing Blue_Magic's top 10 list somewhere.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jakain said:


> Did you even post a top 10 yet or are you like HKF and not read the god damn OP? Talking to the Howard fan of course


Lol, I've posted my top 10 on these boards numerous times. But I guess I'll put one together in a sec if it means that much to you.



> I'm going by because its my top 10
> 
> I also don't see how Dwight/Pau and LBJ/Kobe seem to match up at all; those guys don't really compare.


I'm not comparing them, i'm trying to figure out the pattern of logic that you are using. Statistically Dwight is clearly better than Pau, just like LBJ is clearly better than Kobe(statistically). But if you ignore stats to put Pau above Dwight(assuming because of his finesse game), why isn't Kobe #1 on your list(the guy with the best scoring repertoire in the league)?



> Dwight is ranked below Pau because he's a worse basketball player than he is. Dwight's a great athlete but as a basketball player you can't expect him to score or stay on the court like you can with just about everyone else in the top 10. Those are almost inexcusable weaknesses for players of this level and Howard's had a few years to work on that. Seemed to also have regressed from last year, mostly when it comes to staying on the court.


You cant expect him score? But he scores just as much as Pau Gasol, in less minutes, w/ higher efficiency(ie. less chucking). He also gets more rebs, blks, stls... In other words, he can score just as well and he is a better 2-way player. Only thing Pau has more finesse, which it's fine if you like that. I'm not arguing with that. But Dwight's physical/athletic prowess draws, alot more attention than Pau Gasol(meaning, defenses sag in on him and key on him much more than they do Pau). Pau was no better than a Chris Bosh when he was a franchise player. How the heck is he even better than Bosh right now? Great player, but I dont see the overall difference over a guy like Dwight Howard. Much less his peers like Bosh/Stat etc.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

If I were drafting for next year only, I would draft in this order:

1) James
2) Kobe
3) Durant
4) Paul
5) Wade
6) Melo
7) Nash
8) Bosh
9) Dirk
10) Williams

I left off Howard because he has ZERO offensive game. While some of the players listed have some defensive liabilities, they aren't like playing 4 on 5 in a half court. There is also a lack of good talent in the big man department in the NBA right now.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> Lol, I've posted my top 10 on these boards numerous times. But I guess I'll put one together in a sec if it means that much to you.


So you didn't read the OP or the next two posts afterwards? 



> I'm not comparing them, i'm trying to figure out the pattern of logic that you are using. Statistically Dwight is clearly better than Pau, just like LBJ is clearly better than Kobe(statistically). But if you ignore stats to put Pau above Dwight(assuming because of his finesse game), why isn't Kobe #1 on your list(the guy with the best scoring repertoire in the league)?


Already listed the reasons why Howard was ranked below Pau. There's no set, overruling logic that I used to evaluate each player since we're talking about all sorts of factors and positions; this isn't a Hollinger formula. 

If you read throughout my top 10 list and _most _people's lists there wasn't really any set logic stated; instead people listed nothing at all or a quick sentence or two that didn't give a hint of some kind of formula. For example you'll find that health is basically ignored for a lot of players since CP3 and Kobe are ranked as high as guys like Wade and James even though the latter have been more durable and productive individually. 



> You cant expect him score? But he scores just as much as Pau Gasol, in less minutes, w/ higher efficiency(*ie. less chucking*). He also gets more rebs, blks, stls... In other words, *he can score just as well *and he is a better 2-way player. Only thing Pau has more finesse, which is fine if you like tha. But Dwight's physical/athletic prowess draws, alot more attention than Pau Gasol(meaning, defenses sag in on him and key on him much more than they do Pau). Remember, *Pau was no better than Bosh when he was a franchise player*. *How the heck is he even better than Bosh right now?* Great player, but I dont see the overall difference over a guy like Dwight Howard. Much less his peers like Bosh/Stat etc.


"ie less chucking"? Are you trying to imply that Pau is a chucker? He's also a very efficient player on offense.

Howard's stats look great but it takes watching games to realize that he's not a go-to scorer that you can rely on like the rest of the top 10. He struggles to score in the post 1v1 against players of similar size who can also play some defense especially in the physical playoffs. He also seems to have a tendency to take himself out of the game with foul trouble and also seems to beat himself up mentally; thus you have a star player sitting on the bench.

Also have no idea what you're doing trying to reference how a player used to be over three years ago, Pau's done a lot to improve himself in the past few years which Howard needs to do as well. Just about no one here has Chris Bosh even listed in the top 10 (although he's still a candidate and wouldn't be out of place) whereas Gasol had a few mentions and at least one other guy agreeing he's a better overall player than Dwight.

Dwight's still a great player but his stock fell for me due to the Bobcats series and about half of the ECF. Used to have him in my top 5.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

1)Lebron
2)Kobe
3)Wade
4)Paul
5)Howard
6)Durant
7)Melo
8)Williams
9)Dirk
10)Pau


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Hyperion said:


> If I were drafting for next year only, I would draft in this order:
> 
> 1) James
> 2) Kobe
> ...


You have Nash, Bosh, Dirk, Melo and Deron Williams over Dwight Howard. Are you kidding me? Their teams would trade those guys for Dwight in an instant.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Hyperion said:


> There is also a lack of good talent in the big man department in the NBA right now.


Must spread more rep.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Hyperion said:


> If I were drafting for next year only, I would draft in this order:
> 
> 1) James
> 2) Kobe
> ...


So Nash is number 7, despite being a horrible defender, but Howard gets left off because he can't dominate with post moves? Howard's put backs and alley oops are enough offensively to not make him a liability. Especially considering he grabbed the second most offensive rebounds in the league last year. He's also shown to be a decent passer when they try to work it through him in the post, but he'll occasionally struggle against elite defensive double teams.

If Howard being a poor offensive technician is keeping him out of your Top 10, putting Nash at 7 is sheer, stubborn homerdom.


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

Outside of Lebron, if I had to start a franchise right now, I can't think of anyone I'd take over Dwight Howard... I'd maybe give a passing thought to Durant based on his ceiling, but there is some crazy talk going on around here.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

I love Nash, but he is not a top ten player what so ever.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jakain said:


> So you didn't read the OP or the next two posts afterwards?


hah, no i didn't. that's funny tho. :laugh: Guess I need to start working on my list then... :uhoh:



> Already listed the reasons why Howard was ranked below Pau. There's no set, overruling logic that I used to evaluate each player since we're talking about all sorts of factors and positions; this isn't a Hollinger formula.


Ok, so a guy who averages just as many ppg, at a higher efficiency, while drawing more attention, cannot score and is a liabilty to his team? Some of the statement I read on here are baffling. Dwight is the clear cut best player in Orlando. Pau is a 2nd banana. Do you get that? The reasoning for putting him over Dwight, is because Dwight can't score as a #1? Did everyone but me miss the 1st half of Pau's career? I'm just incredibly flustered right now, but like you said. It's your top 10.



> If you read throughout my top 10 list and _most _people's lists there wasn't really any set logic stated; instead people listed nothing at all or a quick sentence or two that didn't give a hint of some kind of formula. For example you'll find that health is basically ignored for a lot of players since CP3 and Kobe are ranked as high as guys like Wade and James even though the latter have been more durable and productive individually.


You didn't even need to give a reason, it's just an inconsistant list. How can the same guy who says that Pau better than Dwight because of his finesse game, not put Kobe over LBJ. What has LBJ really done? How is finesse more valuable in a big man, but less valueble in a wing? And vice-versa with efficiency?? I'm not following. At least if you were consistent across the board, I could follow the thought process and respect the opinion. But your list was just confusing.



> Howard's stats look great but it takes watching games to realize that he's not a go-to scorer that you can rely on like the rest of the top 10. He struggles to score in the post 1v1 against players of similar size who can also play some defense especially in the physical playoffs. He also seems to have a tendency to take himself out of the game with foul trouble and also seems to beat himself up mentally; thus you have a star player sitting on the bench.


He had two bad games out of six. He also had 28+ in 3 games. Of course ppl will key in on the 2 bad games as their primary claim to say he cannot score 1v1. I dont really see how ppl continue to say this. That is a myth. This year was his worst postseason statistically in the last 3 years, but ppl will write him for foul trouble or various other issues that slowed him down in one given series. Ironically he was still just as effective as Pau this postseason. If he had a teammate show up like Kobe, as opposed to the disapearing act Vince, it would take some pressure off of him. Pau did NOTHING under the pressure of being a #1 guy, so please spare me about what Dwight can or cannot carry.



> Also have no idea what you're doing trying to reference how a player used to be over three years ago, Pau's done a lot to improve himself in the past few years which Howard needs to do as well. Just about no one here has Chris Bosh even listed in the top 10 (although he's still a candidate and wouldn't be out of place) whereas Gasol had a few mentions and at least one other guy agreeing he's a better overall player than Dwight.
> 
> Dwight's still a great player but his stock fell for me due to the Bobcats series and about half of the ECF. Used to have him in my top 5.


Wait, better offensive player or better overall player? Those are 2 different things. Overall player, this becomes even less of a contest. But I know who i'm dealing with, so no need to go into detials... 

And you can cherry pick one or two bad series from any great player your list, so that is ridiculous. This was Dwight's worst statistical postseason in the last 3 yrs, and alot of it had to do with the treat meant he got in the 1st round. Dude was only playing 26 minutes. Clearly you should know an abberation of a series, when you see one. But no, You want to paint it out as the norm. Ask Toronto fans, or Cleveland fans, or Atlanta how they feel about Dwight Howard. Dude terrorizes them in the postseason. Who does Pau dominate? Sure he's a nice player, but @ the end of the day, he's a #2. How can you talk about Dwight's ability to carry a scoring load, and then mention Pau Gasol. A #2 option? C'mon be consistent.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Btw here is my top 10(in terms of my projected individual impact):

1 - LeBron James
2 - Dwayne Wade
3 - Dwight Howard
4 - Chris Paul
5 - Kobe Bryant
6 - Kevin Durant
7 - Deron Williams
8 - Chris Bosh
9 - Carmelo Anthony
10a - Pau Gasol
10b - Amare Stoudemire


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> hah, no i didn't. that's funny tho. :laugh: Guess I need to start working on my list then... :uhoh:


:baseldance:



> Ok, so a guy who averages just as many ppg, at a higher efficiency, while drawing more attention, cannot score and is a liabilty to his team? Some of the statement I read on here are baffling. Dwight is the clear cut best player in Orlando. Pau is a 2nd banana. Do you get that? The reasoning for putting him over Dwight, is because Dwight can't score as a #1? Did everyone but me miss the 1st half of Pau's career? I'm just incredibly flustered right now, but like you said. It's your top 10.


Pau's a better shot creator than Howard especially in the playoffs. If Howard was on the Lakers, he'd also take a backseat to Kobe. However Pau has also led the Lakers when Kobe was sidelined and is a better overall player than Howard.

I've stated numerous times that Pau's a better player because of his superior offense, better overall game, and that he can stay on the court. 

LA didn't start getting to the Finals without Pau Gasol and now they've been there three consecutive times.



> You didn't even need to give a reason, it's just an inconsistant list. How can the same guy who says that Pau better than Dwight because of his finesse game, not put Kobe over LBJ. What has LBJ really done? How is finesse more valuable in a big man, but less valueble in a wing? And vice-versa with efficiency?? I'm not following. At least if you were consistent across the board, I could follow the thought process and respect the opinion. But your list was just confusing.



Its not about finesse with Dwight, its about actually being able to consistently score 1v1. He can't overpower players of similar size especially if they can play defense. You can't throw him the rock and expect good things to happen. In fact you almost expect him to turn it over, pick up a foul, or brick it at the line more than something productive.



> He had two bad games out of six. He also had 28+ in 3 games. Of course ppl will key in on the 2 bad games as their primary claim to say he cannot score 1v1. I dont really see how ppl continue to say this. That is a myth. This year was his worst postseason statistically in the last 3 years, but ppl will write him for foul trouble or various other issues that slowed him down in one given series. Ironically he was still just as effective as Pau this postseason. If he had a teammate show up like Kobe, as opposed to the disapearing act Vince, it would take some pressure off of him. Pau did NOTHING under the pressure of being a #1 guy, so please spare me about what Dwight can or cannot carry.


Pau's led some pretty awful teams to the playoffs. He's also basically a no. 1 option for LA if the match-up is in their favor. Pau also improved significantly since the Memphis days into being a premier NBA big.

Howard was awful in two games of the ECF, able to score points in one of them but sacrificed rebounding and blocks, and was great in the last half of the series. He was awful in the Bobcats series and great against Atlanta. 




> Wait, better offensive player or better overall player? Those are 2 different things. Overall player, this becomes even less of a contest. But I know who i'm dealing with, so no need to go into detials...


He's both.



> And you can cherry pick one or two bad series from any great player your list, so that is ridiculous. This was Dwight's worst statistical postseason in the last 3 yrs, and alot of it had to do with the treat meant he got in the 1st round. Dude was only playing 26 minutes. Clearly you should know an abberation of a series, when you see one. But no, You want to paint it out as the norm. Ask Toronto fans, or Cleveland fans, or Atlanta how they feel about Dwight Howard. Dude terrorizes them in the postseason. Who does Pau dominate? Sure he's a nice player, but @ the end of the day, he's a #2. How can you talk about Dwight's ability to carry a scoring load, and then mention Pau Gasol. A #2 option? C'mon be consistent.


Dwight's not good enough to be a #1 option. And its not like he doesn't have a great payroll and better teammates than Pau ever had back in the Memphis days. 

Cherry pick one or two bad series? Howard played bad for nearly half of his playoffs run this year. I also used recent playoff runs to gauge other players on the top 10 so it wasn't just Dwight. 

Pau's a better passer, scorer, and overall a better basketball player than Dwight. 



> legit goat?


Legit goat? Nope.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

HKF said:


> You have Nash, Bosh, Dirk, Melo and Deron Williams over Dwight Howard. Are you kidding me? Their teams would trade those guys for Dwight in an instant.


For the long term, yes, this year? No. 



GregOden said:


> So Nash is number 7, despite being a horrible defender, but Howard gets left off because he can't dominate with post moves? Howard's put backs and alley oops are enough offensively to not make him a liability. Especially considering he grabbed the second most offensive rebounds in the league last year. He's also shown to be a decent passer when they try to work it through him in the post, but he'll occasionally struggle against elite defensive double teams.
> 
> If Howard being a poor offensive technician is keeping him out of your Top 10, putting Nash at 7 is sheer, stubborn homerdom.


So you hate Nash. I'm sorry you feel that way. He is a decent defender, can stay in front of his man and can take a charge. Amare just never rotates to seal off the drive.(he is one of the all time worst defensive post players) 

Anyways, most of those 'put backs' are by his own failed post moves. You say he's a decent passer like how? The dude has a 0.53 A/TO ratio! He has the worst A/TO ratio of anyone committing more than 2.2 TOs a game. He's 4th behind Ellis, Nash, and James and that's only because the ball is in their hands the entire game. Howard is a 50/50 on whether he'll make a move or commit a turnover, but he's definitely not passing it.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jakain said:


> Pau's a better shot creator than Howard especially in the playoffs. If Howard was on the Lakers, he'd also take a backseat to Kobe. However Pau has also led the Lakers when Kobe was sidelined and is a better overall player than Howard.
> 
> I've stated numerous times that Pau's a better player because of his superior offense, better overall game, and that he can stay on the court.
> 
> LA didn't start getting to the Finals without Pau Gasol and now they've been there three consecutive times.


And if Pau Gasol was in Orlando we would've never made it to the finals and would be a marginal defensive team. We would be a perinnial 2nd round flameout like ATL.




> Its not about finesse with Dwight, its about actually being able to consistently score 1v1. He can't overpower players of similar size especially if they can play defense. You can't throw him the rock and expect good things to happen. In fact you almost expect him to turn it over, pick up a foul, or brick it at the line more than something productive.


I swear, you sound like your talking about Ben Wallace everytime you speak about Dwight. Give him some credit, bro. How did this team have a top 10 record 3 years in arow with him anchoring the offense as #1, if good things dont happen when he touches it. 



> Pau's led some pretty awful teams to the playoffs. He's also basically a no. 1 option for LA if the match-up is in their favor. Pau also improved significantly since the Memphis days into being a premier NBA big.


His numbers look exactly the same aside from a slight rise in FG%(and slight rise in rpg this season). The rise in FG% clearly due to having less pressure on him tho... And he's been considered a premiere big long before he ever came to LA. Dont quite see how any could say otherwise, only thing different is the attention you receive when your team is a contender.



> Howard was awful in two games of the ECF, able to score points in one of them but sacrificed rebounding and blocks, and was great in the last half of the series. He was awful in the Bobcats series and great against Atlanta.


His production on the court was great against Charlotte, he just couldn't stay on the court long enough to pad his numbers. His production was also great in the ATL series, and he could've padded his #'s more if that series was competitive. The Boston series was good & bad offensively, but defensively he was great throughout.



> He's both.


He's not touching Dwight on D, AT ALL. It's no contest on the defensive side of the ball. 'He's both', lol. :laugh: (*insert Ed Lover pic here*)



> Dwight's not good enough to be a #1 option. And its not like he doesn't have a great payroll and better teammates than Pau ever had back in the Memphis days.
> 
> Cherry pick one or two bad series? Howard played bad for nearly half of his playoffs run this year. I also used recent playoff runs to gauge other players on the top 10 so it wasn't just Dwight.
> 
> Pau's a better passer, scorer, and overall a better basketball player than Dwight.


Dwight is the centerpiece of a two completely different teams making back-to-back ECF's runs. Not good enough my ass. And this is the 1st year Orlando has ever paid luxury in franchise history. Dwight has been out the 1st round for the 2 years. Pau never made it out of the 1st as #1, he had to team up with the best scorer in the game. Dwight took Hedo Turkaglu and Rashard Lewis to the NBA final. That probably doesn't make it out of round 2 w/ Pau Gasol. The D would look alot more like Swiss Cheese, and he's not even scoring any more ppg. He'd just be scoring in different ways, and taking 3-4 more shots. I fail to see the overall advantage in Pau over Dwight.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

^ I completely agree that Dwight is better than Paul. I don't think a single GM would hesitate if that deal were proffered up.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> Since the season is over, I'm interested in how the elite players are viewed *going into next season*. What's your top 10, in order? And you can't criticize anyone's list unless you do your own.


My guideline is the bolded part.
that being said:

*1- Kobe Bryant. *
Sure, Cabron James is the best player in the NBA. 
But Kobe will be playing in the Finals in 2011. Who knows where Lebron will be (but the best bet would be that he will have another out-of-this-world regular season... and not sniff the Finals)

*2- Lebron James.*
Best player around.
But Frodo was mightier than Sauron.
And, again, the ring should elude Cabron James.

*3- Dwyane Wade.*
Great, great player, due for another great season. 
Can't be stopped.

*4- Dwight Howard.*
Best defender in the league. And not too shabby on the offensive end.
I expect improvement from D-Ho for next season. If not, i would rank him lower.

*5- Kevin Durant.*
Already a magnificent offensive player, i expect him to improve his all-around play. And his team to get up a few notches in the ranks.

*6- Chris Paul.*
Would have ranked him higher if not for my concerns about him getting to his proper form. If healthy, he is one of the best players around.

*7- Deron Williams.*
He is coming into his own. And i expect a major season from him.
(or maybe i just love the Jazz, i don't know)

*8- Dirk Nowitzki.*
Year after year, he keeps bringing it. Dallas is gis team, and he will deliver another great (regular) season.

*9- Yellow Anthony.*
He MUST get tired of hearing about the "up-and-coming" whatever.
Unstopable offensive force, with a well rounded up game.

*10- Steve Nash.*
Probably the greatest offensive player in the league. No one can control a game like Nash can. He has one more great season in him.

*About the lists i've been reading:*

- Whoever has Kobe Bryant lower than #2 must have been in a coma the last couple of years.
- Pau Gasol a Top-10 player? Reaaaally?


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

1A. LeBron
1B. Kobe
3. Dwight Howard 
4. Chris Paul
5. Dwayne Wade
6. Deron Williams
7. Kevin Durant
8. Dirk
9. Melo
10. Derrick Rose

-LeBron would be a clear #1 if he knew how to play without the ball in his hands. 
-You guys overrate how bad Howard is offensively. He has no one to feed him the ball. I think he should team with CP3 in the future because they would complement each other so well it would be scary. Plus he is the best defender in the league by a wide margin. Defensive Anchors as good as him come along once a decade. 
-Derrick Rose is on my list because I feel he is going to cement himself in the top 10 this year. He is a big-time performer especially in the playoffs. If Chicago can get LeBron and Bosh I don't see how anyone could beat them in a best of 7.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Hyperion said:


> For the long term, yes, this year? No.
> 
> 
> So you hate Nash. I'm sorry you feel that way. He is a decent defender, can stay in front of his man and can take a charge. Amare just never rotates to seal off the drive.(he is one of the all time worst defensive post players)
> ...


I do not hate Nash, I love watching him play. He's incredibly talented offensively. I've also seen him get badly abused by marginal PG's. To keep it short, Dwight's offense is better than Nash's defense. I would even go as far to say that Dwight's defense is better than Nash's offense.

And what exactly is your point about the putbacks? Does it really matter if he took a shot, missed it, got the board, and slammed it down compared to just making the first shot? I mean, I don't even know if you can say that is actually the case...dude shot 61.2% from the field.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Hyperion said:


> Howard is a 50/50 on whether he'll make a move or commit a turnover, *but he's definitely not passing it.*


Are you kidding? Dwight is so unselfish. Passing isn't his problem it's putting the ball on the floor, sometimes he just misjudges the double and turns it over. He's definitely a willing passer if you double, though, it just usually leads to 1-2 other passes. I guess we know you haven't been watching.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

I think I've already established that Jakain rates Howard low because he doesn't like Howard. Which is perfectly fine since it is his list. Just don't push too hard for reasoning because you never know what kind of response you'll get. So far we've already gotten the reasoning that Howard should be ranked lower because nobody above him has problem scoring one on one. A little more push you might get something like he's the only one who couldn't hit 60% of his freethrows.


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## ChiBron (Jun 24, 2002)

1) LeBron - 2 time MVP, statistically peerless and if he joins Chicago, he should finally be a champion too.

2) Kobe - really blew his shot at reaching #1 status with a mediocre-as-hell series against Boston. I don't think anyone would be ranking LeBron above him had he played well. Instead he ended up playing worse than LeBron!

3) Wade
4) Howard
5) CP3
6) Durant
7) Nowitzki
8) Deron Williams
9) Nash
10) Gasol


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## Lynx (Mar 6, 2004)

I didn't get a chance to go through every post but consensus I see is that Kobe can't compete with tired legs. I wonder if you people realize that Kobe played 2 season with an injury finger without a break, and few other injuries that occurred after that. Yet, still manage to win two consecutive titles. 

Very surprising not to see Duncan in the list. I still reckon he's Top 10 player in the league today.


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## g-dog-rice#2 (Jan 29, 2006)

Sir Patchwork said:


> 2. Chris Paul - Probably higher than most people will have him. He is incredibly efficient as a scorer and a point guard. I feel he will MVP next season if his team can muster up enough wins. I hope he gets dealt or the Hornets make some kind of move.
> 
> 3. Kobe Bryant - Declining athletically, but still has an incredible skillset and a fierce will to win. He is probably the most feared player in the league.
> 
> ...


I have a few thoughts about your list.
First off, Chris Paul is not the 2nd best player in the league. No way. Even Deron Williams is closing in on him and is not far behind. And Deron is certainly not the 2nd best player in the league.

Second, as much as I love Kobe, I don't think he is the most feared player in the league. He's probably the most respected amongst his peers, but I don't think people fear him as much anymore since he has declined physically, and it's a bit harder for him to score. I might have to give title of most feared to Lebron.

Pau Gasol most talented big in the league? Offensively? Yes. Duncan is too old, and Garnett is too broken down. Amare can score on pick and roll and put-backs, but Pau is much more complete. I agree with you here.

Lastly, I'm not sure I'd put Roy in the top 10. He is a terrific player but I don't think he's done enough to warrant top 10 status. It's close though. You might be right, it's so hard to say.

MY LIST:

1. Lebron (best overall)
2. Kobe (as long as he isn't too injured to play, he is still reliable)
3. Wade (incredible athlete)
4. Durant (proved he belongs)
5. Dirk (can score with the best of em)
6. Dwight Howard (would easily be higher if he improved his offense; needs a go-to move)
7. Carmelo Anthony (when he keeps head on straight)
8. Pau Gasol (look at Lakers track record with him)
9. Deron Williams (best point in league imo)
10. Chris Paul (haven't seen him play in so long; very hard to judge)
-----------
11. Yao Ming (when healthy)
12. Bosh (very good numbers)
13. Amare (would like to see him improve his defense)
14. Tim Duncan (can't anchor a defense anymore but still a top player)
15. Brandon Roy (not quite convinced on him)
16. Steve Nash (still a great pg)
17. Paul Pierce (clutch, good at creating shots)
18. Joe Johnson? (Don't watch him play much)
19. Derrick Rose (moving up steadily)
20. Rajon Rondo (overrated)


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

g-dog-rice#2 said:


> First off, Chris Paul is not the 2nd best player in the league. No way. Even Deron Williams is closing in on him and is not far behind. And Deron is certainly not the 2nd best player in the league.


The problem is that the only player I take over a healthy Paul is LeBron. I'd rather have Paul than Wade, Howard, Kobe or Durant. He is not only an unstoppable scorer and playmaker, but he also controls pace and if he is handling the ball for your team, your team is not going to turn the ball over very much. He also creates shots for his teammates better than anyone and forces 3 or so turnovers per game. When healthy, dude is just dominant.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

Been years since I've done one of these.

1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3. Wade
4. Howard
5. Paul
6. Durant
7. Williams
8. Dirk
9. Gasol
10. Anthony


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## tone wone (Jan 30, 2003)

1. Lebron
2. Wade
3. Bryant
4. Howard
5. Paul
6. Dirk
7. Durant
8. Williams
9. Gasol
10. Anthony


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> It would be fine if you made the argument that because Howard's offense is so atrocious even if you factor in his defense he would still be a lesser player than the guys listed above him. However, your argument was because he is the only one in the list that cannot score 1v1, he should be ranked lower and I find that ridiculous. If you made an attempt to compare Howard's overall game as well as his personal and team achievements it would've been fine, however you chose to focus on the fact that he cannot score 1 on 1. That's the part I have a problem with.


He does struggle to score 1v1 in addition to just staying on the court which basically nullifies his strengths. You seem to only have a problem with Howard since I made basically random points on all my rankings and didn't really go into each player's individual or team accomplishments.

Also flat out don't like this guy. If Orlando wasn't down in the Boston series he'd likely get called for all the "incidental" contact that he got away with as well, basically running into the same problems had in the first round. 



> If anyone has any issue with any of my placements I would be glad to provide an explanation.


Why don't you have any set logic or explanations for your rankings if you seem to be a proponent of such?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> He does struggle to score 1v1 in addition to just staying on the court which basically nullifies his strengths. You seem to only have a problem with Howard since I made basically random points on all my rankings and didn't really go into each player's individual or team accomplishments.


I've already explained that being able to score 1v1 isn't much of a factor when determining whether a guy is better than the other guy. When you take in all the elements of the game and how Howard affects all of them, it's absurd to rank him as low as you did. If you look at every ranking in this thread, you ranked him the lowest, therefore people are asking you about it. You seem to dwell on a couple weakness that Howard has and blows it out of proportion and even go as far as implying that a player needs to be able to score 1v1 in order to be an elite player. 



> Also flat out don't like this guy.


Exactly, that's why you ranked him low, so cut the other nonsense and let's save some bandwidth for the website.



> Why don't you have any set logic or explanations for your rankings if you seem to be a proponent of such?


Because the OP asked for my top 10 and I gave my top 10. If anyone asked about my ranking I would explain it, but nobody has so far.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> I've already explained that being able to score 1v1 isn't much of a factor when determining whether a guy is better than the other guy. When you take in all the elements of the game and how Howard affects all of them, it's absurd to rank him as low as you did. If you look at every ranking in this thread, you ranked him the lowest, therefore people are asking you about it. You seem to dwell on a couple weakness that Howard has and blows it out of proportion and even go as far as implying that a player needs to be able to score 1v1 in order to be an elite player.


True enough although I don't see you criticizing Hyperion's list for not including Howard at all and there were couple of others that had the likes of Gasol over Howard as well for similar reasons I had.



> Exactly, that's why you ranked him low, so cut the other nonsense and let's save some bandwidth for the website.


Other nonsense? Please. Howard struggles to consistently score 1v1 and struggles to stay on the court compared to the rest of the guys on the top 10. Those are nearly inexcusable weaknesses for players of this caliber. This site could use traffic since its the offseason.



> Because the OP asked for my top 10 and I gave my top 10. If anyone asked about my ranking I would explain it, but nobody has so far.


All righty, why did you choose not to write some logic to back up your top 10 since you're a proponent of such?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> True enough although I don't see you criticizing Hyperion's list for not including Howard at all and there were couple of others that had the likes of Gasol over Howard as well for similar reasons I had.


Does it matter to you if I argue with him about his list lol? If I feel like talking to him I would, but I'm talking to you right now.



> Other nonsense? Please. Howard struggles to consistently score 1v1 and struggles to stay on the court compared to the rest of the guys on the top 10. Those are nearly inexcusable weaknesses for players of this caliber. This site could use traffic since its the offseason.


How about the fact that the "rest of those guys" struggle to lead a team deep in the playoffs? Or that those guys have trouble winning back to back DPOY awards? That's why I say you're blowing things out of proportion. When you list 1v1 as your main reasoning of why Howard is ranked so low, it's ridiculous. 



> All righty, why did you choose not to write some logic to back up your top 10 since you're a proponent of such?


I also chose not to draw an ascii picture of a greased up pelican from the gulf, do you want to know why to that as well?


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

All of this talk about 1 on 1 scoring... I'm pretty sure there at 10 guys on the court at any given time.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> Does it matter to you if I argue with him about his list lol? If I feel like talking to him I would, but I'm talking to you right now.


Yea, was addressing that: "If you look at every ranking in this thread, you ranked him the lowest, therefore people are asking you about it. You seem to dwell on a couple weakness that Howard has and blows it out of proportion and even go as far as implying that a player needs to be able to score 1v1 in order to be an elite player." 

Didn't rank him the lowest 



> How about the fact that the "rest of those guys" struggle to lead a team deep in the playoffs? Or that those guys have trouble winning back to back DPOY awards? That's why I say you're blowing things out of proportion. When you list 1v1 as your main reasoning of why Howard is ranked so low, it's ridiculous.


True enough although I have regularly mentioned that he has his struggles staying on the court which limits what he brings to the league. His struggles scoring 1v1 and staying on the court is ridiculous for a player with his experience and importance.



> I also chose not to draw an ascii picture of a greased up pelican from the gulf, do you want to know why to that as well?


So mind writing some set logic that dictated each of your rankings? Point is you seem to criticize such while offering zero logic of your own for your own top 10, seems kind of funny.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Dwight is a top 5 player, he is never going to be Hakeem on offense, but his impact on defense is just too great. Basketball is a two way sport, it isn't always about offense.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Game3525 said:


> Dwight is a top 5 player, he is never going to be Hakeem on offense, but his impact on defense is just too great. Basketball is a two way sport, it isn't always about offense.


Also about staying on the court.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

GregOden said:


> I do not hate Nash, I love watching him play. He's incredibly talented offensively. *I've also seen him get badly abused by marginal PG's.* To keep it short, Dwight's offense is better than Nash's defense. *I would even go as far to say that Dwight's defense is better than Nash's offense.*
> 
> And what exactly is your point about the putbacks? Does it really matter if he took a shot, missed it, got the board, and slammed it down compared to just making the first shot? I mean, I don't even know if you can say that is actually the case...dude shot 61.2% from the field.


No, you haven't. What' you've seen is a point guard with mediocre lateral foot speed (i.e. 35 years old) not getting baseline help from the PF on the strong side (Amare) Notice how that doesn't happen when Lou is there or Lopez? Amare is a terrible one on one defender and a wretched team defender.

As per Nash's offense. Dude. Seriously? Nash has been the motor to the Top 6 offensive teams of ALL TIME! There is no debate that he is the most efficient playmaker in the NBA today and is definitely Top 3 All Time. Can you tell me what happened to Marion as soon as he got his wish to leave Phoenix? Is it really a surprise that EVERY player who comes to Phoenix and plays with Nash sees his numbers go up? Nash's control of the offense is legendary. 



Blue Magic said:


> Are you kidding? *Dwight is so unselfish.* Passing isn't his problem it's putting the ball on the floor, sometimes he just misjudges the double and turns it over. He's definitely a willing passer if you double, though, it just usually leads to 1-2 other passes. I guess we know you haven't been watching.


I never said he was selfish. I merely pointed out that he can't playmake. Every one of the Top 10 should be the playmaker on the team and go to guy. Dwight is not a leader on the team, he's a workhorse. He can't get the ball down low, post up, see the double team and kick it out for a wide open 3pt shot. If he could, then the Magic would be NBA champs this year because the Magic have the most quality 3pt shooters in the league. The Magic need a quality playmaker in order to win it all. Yes Dwight can finish, but he can't create for himself all the time and definitely not for his teammates. 

If the Magic can get a good point guard, then they will win the finals. No, Nelson is not it. (I'll answer your question before you can write it)


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Once again, Dwight is averaging just as ppg as Gasol at a higher percentage. If he is struggling to score, what exactly do you call what Pau Gasol is doing? Again, I just do not follow the logic... So flustered with some these claims.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> Once again, Dwight is averaging just as ppg as Gasol at a higher percentage. If he is struggling to score, what exactly do you call what Pau Gasol is doing? Again, I just do not follow the logic... So flustered with some these claims.


I don't think Pau is a Top 10 player either.

EDIT: If Howard can add a more refined post play to his game then he will be a Top 3 player in the league without a doubt.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Hyperion said:


> I never said he was selfish. I merely pointed out that he can't playmake. Every one of the Top 10 should be the playmaker on the team and go to guy. Dwight is not a leader on the team, he's a workhorse. He can't get the ball down low, post up, see the double team and kick it out for a wide open 3pt shot. If he could, then the Magic would be NBA champs this year because the Magic have the most quality 3pt shooters in the league. The Magic need a quality playmaker in order to win it all. Yes Dwight can finish, but he can't create for himself all the time and definitely not for his teammates.
> 
> If the Magic can get a good point guard, then they will win the finals. No, Nelson is not it. (I'll answer your question before you can write it)


I agree playmaking it is not a strength, but he is seeing the game alot better than he did a cpl years ago. It's probably his biggest area for growth still, but I dont think that takes him out of the top 10, much less top 6. 

I dont think the problem with the Magic was his decision making or inability to create opportunities, when you look @ a guy like VC's #'s in the ECF's, that is the problem. Vince was shooting 30%FG and 20%3pt... Guy couldn't shoot the ball in the ocean. Usually when teams come to double Dwight, his 1st pass get covered quickly but due to the double, the D is off-balance and it leads 1 or 2 more swing passes to an open man in the corner. That is basically how the team was designed, to counter the double. Dont be mistaken though, it all starts with Dwight, and him being unselfish enough to not force ill-advised shots. His presence alone is the #1 reason we're consistantly good on offense, whether he's racking up the assists or not. 

Also I wouldn't mind an upgrade at PG, but it's not gonna be easy finding anything better then Nelson. He's definitely a top 15 player @ his position imo, who can take over from time to time. Great leader. I like him. The main flaw with the team is a bigger wing who can handle the ball and consistently get to the rim a little bit, and hit that open 3 from the swing pass. VC was just bricking open 3, after open 3... :nonono: ANother facilitator would be nice, but dont think it is essential.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

I'm sorry, but his offense is too suspect for me. He's definitely Top 15 in the league, but not Top 10 right now. In the final few minutes of a close game, do you really want him out there or are you 50/50 on that because he can't hit FTs and when in trouble will quite possibly turn it over via travelling or offensive foul? In other words, would you be clamoring for Gundy to lose his job over not playing Dwight in the final 2 minutes of a close game?

I would expect Lebron, Kobe, Durant, Paul, Wade, Melo, Nash, Dirk, Bosh, and Williams to be in the final 2 minutes unless they were injured. Otherwise I would severely question the coach's decisions to the point that he should be fired. Hell, I should throw Timmy D up there too, but since he wasn't in my original list, I won't.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Hyperion said:


> I'm sorry, but his offense is too suspect for me. He's definitely Top 15 in the league, but not Top 10 right now. In the final few minutes of a close game, do you really want him out there or are you 50/50 on that because he can't hit FTs and when in trouble will quite possibly turn it over via travelling or offensive foul? In other words, would you be clamoring for Gundy to lose his job over not playing Dwight in the final 2 minutes of a close game?
> 
> I would expect Lebron, Kobe, Durant, Paul, Wade, Melo, Nash, Dirk, Bosh, and Williams to be in the final 2 minutes unless they were injured. Otherwise I would severely question the coach's decisions to the point that he should be fired. Hell, I should throw Timmy D up there too, but since he wasn't in my original list, I won't.


Are you kidding, Van Dumby would be FIRED if he pulled Dwight in the last 2 mins. I MOST DEFINITELY want him in the game in crunch time, and i get mad when we dont even feed him in crunch time. Just in terms of defense, he deserves to be on the court tho. Offensively, his presence creates space for shooters regardless of if he's getting the last shot or not. He puts pressure on a defense. You dont pull a Dwight Howard, You dont pull a Tim Duncan. Period. Neither are good FT shooters. C'mon if there was draft today 10 teams dont pass on Dwight. Maybe 5 teams would pass @ the most. I cant fathom it.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> Yea, was addressing that: "If you look at every ranking in this thread, you ranked him the lowest, therefore people are asking you about it. You seem to dwell on a couple weakness that Howard has and blows it out of proportion and even go as far as implying that a player needs to be able to score 1v1 in order to be an elite player."
> 
> Didn't rank him the lowest


That's great, so you ranked him the 2nd lowest.

So I guess if 1 more person ranks him lower than you we should halt this conversation immediately. If you must know, if there comes a time where everyone ranks Dwight Howard at #9 that's the time when this conversation ends. It's like those handicap parking spaces in the parking lot. If one day everyone becomes handicapped we wouldn't be seeing those spaces.

I still don't see why whatever he says has anything to do with you. 



> True enough although I have regularly mentioned that he has his struggles staying on the court which limits what he brings to the league. His struggles scoring 1v1 and staying on the court is ridiculous for a player with his experience and importance.


Yet he has done more with that limited offense than most of the guys you listed above him. We're ranking players' overall game here, not his offense or playing time. That's why theres a problem with your list, you're not ranking the guy's overall value to his team and the success that he brings to them. 



> So mind writing some set logic that dictated each of your rankings? Point is you seem to criticize such while offering zero logic of your own for your own top 10, seems kind of funny.


For the last time, the OP did not ask for a reasoning therefore I didn't give one. Had you not said anything other than offering a list people would still asked you about it because you had an odd list. You chose to give a reasoning and now people are arguing about your reasoning, end of story.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

The league has definitely grown younger. 15 years ago, over half of the top players in the league were over 30. Now, it's Kobe, and maybe Dirk and/or Nash if you listed them.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> That's great, so you ranked him the 2nd lowest.
> 
> _I still don't see why whatever he says has anything to do with you.
> _


Because you said I ranked him the lowest :sfight:




> Yet he has done more with that limited offense than most of the guys you listed above him. We're ranking players' overall game here, not his offense or playing time. That's why theres a problem with your list, you're not ranking the guy's *overall value to his team and the success that he brings to them*.


He's also had an organization willing to tailor the franchise around him thats not afraid of spending money. 

Disagree about the bolded part since I did rank based on overall value and thats why Pau Gasol got a higher ranking. The only way he can be ranked higher is if you include more than just their potential defensive impact.

I don't like Howard but to qualify that even further I don't like players with such a lack of mental focus. Howard played bad for half of his playoffs run mainly because he had difficulty just staying on the court due to fouls. Howard means so much for Orlando and their system and if he's not on the court getting double-teamed, the system and team fails. 



> For the last time, the OP did not ask for a reasoning therefore I didn't give one. Had you not said anything other than offering a list people would still asked you about it because you had an odd list. You chose to give a reasoning and now people are arguing about your reasoning, end of story.


True enough. So out of curiosity's sake what was the set, consistent overall logic you used to rank your players anywho?


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

For those who seem to think Howard cannot score, maybe you need to take a sneak peak at a bit of his repertoire. 






He's no Hakeem, but to act like he is inept or some kind of burden on offense is borderline delusional. Just setting that straight.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

LOL at Howard not being a top six player. Kid is the best player in the league (by a wide margin) defensively, and is starting to get criminally underrated offensively just because he's not polished. He averages close to 20 points a game and has for three years now. All while putting up some of the best FG%s in the league.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I watched that whole video. I saw him get Kendrick Perkins good once, and if we're still pretending Shaq's body makes him a presence he had a decent hook over him. 

All that other **** was inferior man defense and completely empty lanes. And that's how he gets his points for the most part.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

He scored over Pau and Bynum too... Both who bigger than him. But still, against the entire league his #'s speak for themself. He is a more effective scorer than Pau Gasol if you strictly look at his production over the season, against the entire league. Sure there is maybe 2 or 3 teams that can bring down his production a bit, but nobody shut him down completely. Especially on the defensive end, he's bringing it on that end regardless. Nobody in the top 10 is really on his level on that end right now. Maybe LeBron, or MAYBE DWade are in the picture on a good day, but they cant consistently lock down the paint like Dwight. Only big man i've ever really seen get the better of Dwight on both ends was Yao Ming.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> He's also had an organization willing to tailor the franchise around him thats not afraid of spending money.


And Howard delivered by giving them final and conf final appearance. Name me a team that went deep in the playoffs that isn't paying luxury tax.



> Disagree about the bolded part since I did rank based on overall value and thats why Pau Gasol got a higher ranking. The only way he can be ranked higher is if you include more than just their potential defensive impact.


Well, then I guess you just have very poor judgement when it comes to recognizing player impact and value.



> True enough. So out of curiosity's sake what was the set, consistent overall logic you used to rank your players anywho?


I ranked guys based on their impact on the game and the value to their teams.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> And Howard delivered by giving them final and conf final appearance. Name me a team that went deep in the playoffs that isn't paying luxury tax.


Point was that he had an organization willing to tailor around him and pay $$$ unlike say, CP3. Had Orlando faced a healthy Celtics team last year, probably wouldn't have advanced either.



> Well, then I guess you just have very poor judgement when it comes to recognizing player impact and value.


True enough although by saying that Howard doesn't have trouble scoring 1v1 or staying on the court, it gives a similar vibe although I am painfully biased against Howard. Used to be in my top 3-5 but he had a historically bad first round and after getting suspended last year in the playoffs and playing horrible for a top 10 player in half of his recent playoffs run; his progress on the mental end is disappointing and nearly inexcusable given his importance to Orlando.




> I ranked guys based on their impact on the game and the value to their teams.


How is Kobe ranked higher than Wade then since he has more impact and value to his team?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> Point was that he had an organization willing to tailor around him and pay $$$ unlike say, CP3. Had Orlando faced a healthy Celtics team last year, probably wouldn't have advanced either.


I don't really see where your point is. So some players play on rich teams and some play on poor teams. The ones that play on rich teams can capitalize by winning and that's what Howard has done. I think this is the part where you fall short, you seem to think that this ranking is based on a single or couple elements. It's an overall ranking and winning is only a part of it. Whether a guy has a good team or not does not matter as much as what the guy can do with that team.



> True enough although by saying that Howard doesn't have trouble scoring 1v1 or staying on the court, it gives a similar vibe although I am painfully biased against Howard. Used to be in my top 3-5 but he had a historically bad first round and after getting suspended last year in the playoffs and playing horrible for a top 10 player in half of his recent playoffs run; his progress on the mental end is disappointing and nearly inexcusable given his importance to Orlando.


And all that resulted in his team posting one of the best records in the league and a finals and conf finals appearance. I don't know if you see it, but it's quite obvious that you're blowing things way out of proportion.



> How is Kobe ranked higher than Wade then since he has more impact and value to his team?


Are we really going to argue about who's #2 and #3? They are both ranked really high up in my list and their spots can easily be swapped. The reason why Kobe gets the nod is because Wade just hasn't been healthy but both do just about everything for their teams.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jakain said:


> Point was that he had an organization willing to tailor around him and pay $$$ unlike say, CP3. Had Orlando faced a healthy Celtics team last year, probably wouldn't have advanced either.


And if Celtics faced a healthy Laker team in '08, they probably dont win a title either. Who cares about what happens if they fully healthy. They weren't.



> True enough although by saying that Howard doesn't have trouble scoring 1v1 or staying on the court, it gives a similar vibe although I am painfully biased against Howard. Used to be in my top 3-5 but he had a historically bad first round and after getting suspended last year in the playoffs and playing horrible for a top 10 player in half of his recent playoffs run; his progress on the mental end is disappointing and nearly inexcusable given his importance to Orlando.


So you admit that you chastise him more, because he is a more valuable player then? Or do you still insist he is dumb. Because is foul rate is normal for his position. Anyone who is playing full time @ center right now, is picking up just as many fouls per36 as him. Look it up. I dont see how he is the problem, the problem is with the way the game is officiated. A few minor adjustments(like the one's i proposed) would allow for our centers to actually play freely a little bit. The foul issue is simply a league wide epidemic at the center position though, it's not just one guy. It isnt mutually exclusive to Dwight 'Big Dummy' Howard as you paint it. Dwight cannot control the nature of the game or the league. The leagued needs to adjust, or its big guys will continue to be oppressed by floppers, divers, baiters, and the over-anxious officials.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> I don't really see where your point is. So some players play on rich teams and some play on poor teams. The ones that play on rich teams can capitalize by winning and that's what Howard has done. I think this is the part where you fall short, you seem to think that this ranking is based on a single or couple elements. It's an overall ranking and winning is only a part of it. Whether a guy has a good team or not does not matter as much as what the guy can do with that team.


Disagree since guys like Wade and CP3 are dealing with horrible talent and don't have the luxury of having a decent supporting cast. Agreed about the overall ranking part, thats why he's ranked under Pau since his offense and ability on the court leaves a lot to be desired.

Those "couple of elements" are huge facets to the game. By not being able to stay on the court due to his boneheaded foul trouble he's a hindrance. By not being able to command double-teams since he can be single-covered, the system designed around him starts to fail.



> And all that resulted in his team posting one of the best records in the league and a finals and conf finals appearance. I don't know if you see it, but it's quite obvious that you're blowing things way out of proportion.


The Orlando Magic advanced despite Howard's mental weaknesses as seen when they won when he was on the bench in the first round and when he was suspended last year. 

They fail to advance due to Howard's horrible offense and inability to stay on the court. He had a historically bad time on the latter and has the supporting cast to help him out unlike CP3, Wade, Lebron, etc. 



> Are we really going to argue about who's #2 and #3? They are both ranked really high up in my list and their spots can easily be swapped. The reason why Kobe gets the nod is because Wade just hasn't been healthy but both do just about everything for their teams.


Why not? They aren't "equally high" since one guy is higher than the other. How has Kobe been more healthy than Wade if the latter's played more games and Kobe's having surgery this summer? Wade's impact and importance to the team trumps Kobe's since he doesn't have anyone posting a level of stats on his level whereas Kobe has Gasol, Odom, Bynum, etc.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> And if Celtics faced a healthy Laker team in '08, they probably dont win a title either. Who cares about what happens if they fully healthy. They weren't.


Disagree about '08 since Boston were healthier then and Gasol was still Memphis-Gasol. LA also lost by 40 points in their elimination game.

Magic had no business going to the Finals if there were healthy lineups. They were one of the worst teams to get there.



> So you admit that you chastise him more, because he is a more valuable player not because he is dumb? His foul rate is normal for his position. Anyone playing full time @ center right now is picking up just as many fouls per36 as him. I dont see how he is the problem, the problem is with the way the game is officiated. A few minor adjustments would allow for our centers to play a little bit. The foul issue is a league wide epidemic at the center position, it's not just one guy. It's not mutually exclusive to Dwight Howard as you paint it, it's a positional issue. Dwight cant control the nature of the game or the league. The leagued needs to adjust, or its big guys will continue to be oppressed by floppers, divers, baiters, and over-anxious refs.


No, really only Dwight Howard had foul trouble and this shouldn't be new since its a part of his game. He leads the league in personal fouls and technicals and invites refs to whistle against him since he treats 'em like ****. Howard is a guy that tries to get away with too many elbows and throwing people to the ground. Pau Gasol, Tim Duncan, rest of the top 10 didn't have anywhere near the problems Howard did.

Post-play is hard to whistle but not when you have a guy like Dwight throwing elbows into people's faces.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jakain said:


> Disagree about '08 since Boston were healthier then and Gasol was still Memphis-Gasol. LA also lost by 40 points in their elimination game.
> 
> Magic had no business going to the Finals if there were healthy lineups. They were one of the worst teams to get there.


So on one hand, the Magic have this great team around him and this great payroll... But on the other hand, his team is so ****ty that they're one of the worst teams to ever reach the Finals? And wtf is a Memphis-Gasol? His best statistical season is in Memphis. Once again, do not follow the logic...



> No, really only Dwight Howard had foul trouble and this shouldn't be new since its a part of his game. He leads the league in personal fouls and technicals and invites refs to whistle against him since he treats 'em like ****. Howard is a guy that tries to get away with too many elbows and throwing people to the ground. Pau Gasol, Tim Duncan, rest of the top 10 didn't have anywhere near the problems Howard did.
> 
> Post-play is hard to whistle but not when you have a guy like Dwight throwing elbows into people's faces.


He leads the league in fouls because he's playing more minutes and more games. Total fouls and Foul rate are two different things. If he was only playing 24-30 minutes a game like Bynum, Perkins, Oden, Bogut, etc., and if he wasn't playing 82 games a year(cuz those guys def dont), he certainly wouldn't be leading the league in fouls. He's chastised because he's playing more minutes and is more valuable. Total fouls is irrelevant, when his foul rate is normal imo.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> So on one hand, the Magic have this great team around him and this great payroll... But on the other hand, his team is so ****ty that they're one of the worst teams to ever reach the Finals? And wtf is a Memphis-Gasol? His best statistical season is in Memphis. Once again, do not follow the logic...


Not a great team, good supporting cast and a payroll thats tailored around Howard. Howard's one of the main reasons why they fail since he can't stay on the court or consistently get double'd, thus killing a system and team thats designed around him.

You do realize that Gasol was traded from Memphis in 08? And that he's not the same player as he is today? That was one of the stories in this year's finals, whether or not Gasol can fight his soft tendencies against Boston. He had to bulk up and get confidence to be a playoffs winner.



> He leads the league in fouls because he's playing more minutes and more games. Total fouls and Foul rate are two different things. If he was only playing 24-30 minutes a game like Bynum, Perkins, Oden, Bogut, etc., and if he wasn't playing 82 games a year(cuz those guys dont), he wouldn't be leading the league in total fouls. Total fouls is irrelevant tho, his foul rate is normal.


In the first round series he made history with his awful fouling rate. Howard's personals per game in the playoffs was the highest for anyone that played more than 10 playoffs games whereas Gasol didn't even rank in the top 50 overall. He wasn't able to log the minutes that his legs and team needs since he takes himself out of the game. Howard also had the 6th most technicals.

Howard needs to work on this part of the game if a team is going to revolve around him.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> Disagree since guys like Wade and CP3 are dealing with horrible talent and don't have the luxury of having a decent supporting cast. Agreed about the overall ranking part, thats why he's ranked under Pau since his offense and ability on the court leaves a lot to be desired.


I don't know what you're disagreeing here. Did you even read my post? Miami has been cutting salary in preparation for 2010 since 2 years ago and the Hornets have been shedding salary since last year as well.

As for the overall ranking, I already said that you have very poor judgement of player value and impact. So yeah, I guess you are taking these things into account, just that you can't understand their value.



> The Orlando Magic advanced despite Howard's mental weaknesses as seen when they won when he was on the bench in the first round and when he was suspended last year.
> 
> They fail to advance due to Howard's horrible offense and inability to stay on the court. He had a historically bad time on the latter and has the supporting cast to help him out unlike CP3, Wade, Lebron, etc.


Because they can post fantastic records and advance to the finals without Howard. Do you see where your logic fails? You already said that they tailor the team around Howard and that Howard is their best player, yet when the team does well it's doing it without Howard being the main piece? I just don't see how you can argue with these results. If Orlando underachieves under Howard then you may have a case but they've done very well in recent years with Howard as their main guy.



> Why not? They aren't "equally high" since one guy is higher than the other.


You can try a little bit harder to find something interesting about my list. If it pleases you, switch them around. I'd alter my list just so we can end this borderline retarded debate about who's #2 and #3.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> Because they can post fantastic records and advance to the finals without Howard. Do you see where your logic fails? You already said that they tailor the team around Howard and that Howard is their best player, yet when the team does well it's doing it without Howard being the main piece? I just don't see how you can argue with these results. If Orlando underachieves under Howard then you may have a case but they've done very well in recent years with Howard as their main guy.


They did arguably underachieve since they failed to advance as far as they did last year; mainly because of Howard's foul trouble and inept offense. His team was able to win without him while he had a historically awful first round, but yea he's ultimately the biggest reason why they win and fail. Unlike a lot of players on the top 10, he's got the cast and depth for his team to win while he under-performs which he did for basically 7/14 games.



> You can try a little bit harder to find something interesting about my list. If it pleases you, switch them around. I'd alter my list just so we can end this borderline retarded debate about who's #2 and #3.


You argued that Kobe had more value to his team and was healthier than Wade. Argued that it was simply not the case since Wade played more games, won't need surgery, and doesn't have anywhere near the talent or help around him as Kobe. Where's your logic in that?


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> They did arguably underachieve since they failed to advance as far as they did last year; mainly because of Howard's foul trouble and inept offense. His team was able to win without him while he had a historically awful first round, but yea he's ultimately the biggest reason why they win and fail. Unlike a lot of players on the top 10, he's got the cast and depth for his team to win while he under-performs which he did for basically 7/14 games.


They lost to a better team in Celtics after their GM failed to improve the team by giving up Turkoglu and getting VC. 

The other part that's wrong with your post is that Orlando got to the conference finals because of Howard. It's not like they got there without Howard and lost because of Howard. You can't place the blame on the guy without acknowledging the wins they had to get them there.



> You argued that Kobe had more value to his team and was healthier than Wade. *Argued that it was simply not the case since Wade played more games*, won't need surgery, and doesn't have anywhere near the talent or help around him as Kobe. Where's your logic in that?


Wade before this year hasn't been 100% healthy. Kobe although with the finger injury still performed to his career average. 

The bolded part is why I find this 2/3 debate retarded. Wade played a grand total of 1 extra regular season game the past 2 years and you're using that as one of your points? I mean really?

I already said, if it makes you satisfied go ahead and switch the 2 around. I've already gave my reasoning to why I find Kobe to be a better player than Wade. I'm not going to split hairs with you over 1 game. Wade missed 31 games 2 years ago and that's enough evidence to question his health.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jakain said:


> Not a great team, good supporting cast and a payroll thats tailored around Howard. Howard's one of the main reasons why they fail since he can't stay on the court or consistently get double'd, thus killing a system and team thats designed around him.
> 
> You do realize that Gasol was traded from Memphis in 08? And that he's not the same player as he is today? That was one of the stories in this year's finals, whether or not Gasol can fight his soft tendencies against Boston. He had to bulk up and get confidence to be a playoffs winner.


You REFUSE to give Howard any credit. It's comical. But you do realise that Pau's best statistical season was '06-'07, right? The season before he was traded to LA? That year he played with Mike Miller, Rudy Gay, Damon Stoudemire, etc... Hardly any worse than Hedo, Lewis, Alston... 

The difference is that Dwight can take over a game on EITHER end of the court. And he's actually dominant at something(Defense). He has proven it, whether he's inconsistent/foul prone or not. Pau can only takeover on one end of the court, and 'take over' is abit strong(seeing as his best scoring season was only .2ppg better than Dwights best). He's not really dominant in anything to boot. On defense, Pau is slightly above average for his position. He's very good-above average at a few things, but great at nothing. 



> In the first round series he made history with his awful fouling rate. Howard's personals per game in the playoffs was the highest for anyone that played more than 10 playoffs games whereas Gasol didn't even rank in the top 50 overall. He wasn't able to log the minutes that his legs and team needs since he takes himself out of the game. Howard also had the 6th most technicals.
> 
> Howard needs to work on this part of the game if a team is going to revolve around him.


Gasol isnt a real center, he is like KG, Bosh, Stat, Lee, Duncan, Horford. Those guys arent full time centers, they play defense like PF's and are took weak to stop Dwight w/o help(or fouling). Dwight would score rather easily on those guys one-on-one. They are face-up forwards. Guys like Perkins, Bynum, Bogut, Oden, etc., those are the real centers who play with their back to the basket and their foul rate is as bad or worse than Dwight's. The 1st round was abberation, yet he still set a record for block shots despite only playing 26mpg. You cant say a guy who set a record, had no on the series... He dominated on D.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

All right, reading this thread again made me wanna ask two questions (honest questions, no baiting):

*1- About Dwight Howards' deficiencies:*

Yes, dude fouls a lot. And his FT% is horrid.

BUT why are people so down on him offensive-wise?
In the last couple of seasons his scoring per game hovered around 19ppp on +600TS%. He was also the best or second best offensive rebounder.
And regarding "staying on the floor", dude has played around 35mpg the last couple of seasons.

He may not be very polished on offense (he really is not), but does he NEED to be, if he's scoring 19ppg on +600TS%? 

*2- Regarding Kobe Bryant's "decline":*

Sure, Bean isn't the quick, dazzling above-the-rim player he once was, but is he really regressing that much on his play (who, imo, has evolved to compensate the gradual lack of explosivness)?

In his last couple championship runs, he was, in the playoffs, a 30/5/5 and 29/6/5 with PERS and TS% pretty comparable to his usual self.

Yeah, i know he has a lot of mileage in his legs, but dude is 31. Is there any particular reason (besides injury) why people don't seem to think he could be putting those numbers for, like, the next couple of seasons (also considering that his role in the team will remain the same and that he will have most of his teammates back)?

I sincerely wanna know.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

^That's the main point, statistically Dwight is better in most categories. Pau has a better ass/to ratio and better ft% but as far as scoring, scoring efficiency, rebs, blocks, etc, the stats pretty much say Dwight is better. It's like how ppl will say Kobe is a better scorer than Lebron (due to his flair, will, clutch ability, etc) even though LeBron is better statistically in pretty much every category except ft%. And there's nothing wrong with taking Kobe over Lebron, or a DWill over CP3, or Pau over Dwight... It's just that one list took the guy with the better stats up until it got to Dwight, then it switched it up and docked the guy with better stats. It was just a little odd at 1st glance. He admits he is biased against Howard tho, so i guess it is settled.


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## hobojoe (Jun 20, 2003)

It's funny how quickly people forget Dwight dropping 40 in the series clinching game against Cleveland to win the Eastern Conference in the biggest game of his life. I also didn't know you could average 20 ppg for entire seasons, be the leading scorer on an NBA Finals team and have people talk about you like you're Ben freakin' Wallace. You people have to sensationalize everything, because he's not Kareem offensively he has to be a scrub. Chris Bosh is a better player? GTFO


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Haters gon' hate.


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## Cap (Nov 5, 2003)

Dwight is top 5, pretty obvious if you know the little things to look for on D and on the boards. Like the fact that he rotates and challenges pretty much everything, and does so with a Duncan-esque type of consistency.


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## MohamedMagic (Jun 24, 2010)

1. Dwyane Wade. I find it pretty funny how some call him Lebron lite when Flash has accomplished perhaps the most dominant Finals performance in History. In my opinion, he is the most dominant player in the game today. Once he gets in a zone he is unplayable. 

2. LeBron James. 

3. Kobe Bryant. Still the best closer in the game, but not as dynamite as the afro #8 Kobe or the early #24 era. On his day still has a case as the best player in the NBA.

4. Dwight Howard. The best defensive player in the game has to count for something.

5. Chris Paul.


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## E.H. Munro (Jun 22, 2004)

Blue Magic said:


> For those who seem to think Howard cannot score, maybe you need to take a sneak peak at a bit of his repertoire.


That _is_ pretty impressive...


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Yea I am a Howard hater but used to have him ranked in the top 3-5. The guy's stock just fell incredibly for me due to his mental ineptitude by having a historically awful first round series and playing bad for 7 out of his 14 playoffs games. His weaknesses were exploited by the Bobcats and the Celtics to the point where he basically sent himself to the bench.

He does have great stats but I'd argue that they're seemingly empty since they don't impact the game like you expect to. With those FG% numbers you'd think you could just dump the ball to Howard and expect good things to happen when in reality thats opposite of the fact; to the point where his points have been called "fool's gold" (http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/...t-howard-just-punk-kids-jason-whitlock-052010). His points don't come in 1v1 situations rather its mostly defensive lapses, alley oops, putbacks, etc - stuff you can't really depend on in crunch time especially in the playoffs as opposed to a guy with a solid offensive game. He's the kind of player that after turning the ball over and struggling offensively would then show up the next game looking solely to score while sacrificing his rebounding and and blocking strengths. 

His fouling tendencies, able to be single covered 1v1 (thus destroying the system based around him), all that incidental contact (that imo he wouldn't have gotten away with had Orlando been up in the series), and his lack of mental focus all add up. His system and team is tailored around his weaknesses and won despite his struggles in the first round. If I did this quick math right, Howard ends up averaging around a couple less minutes than Pau Gasol did against Boston which is crucial in the playoffs. 

Dwight seems like the easiest player to take out of the game in these top 10 lists whether you frustrate him with physical post play, bait him into fouling, or simply send him to the line. He seems to play less minutes than most of his counterparts due to these negative qualities and seems like one of the harder players to trust that good things will happen when he's on the court. Much like Amar'e, these recent AAU bigs seem like one dimensional players that don't have the mental toughness to be playoff winners. 

Anywho I realize now this is a bunch of circular arguments for the most part anyway, Howardof course has a case for being in the top half of the top 10  Haters gonna hate now time to check out what the hell is going on in that Lebron = AI thread.



E.H. Munro said:


> That _is_ pretty impressive...


Ouch!


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> Dwight seems like the easiest player to take out of the game in these top 10 lists whether you frustrate him with physical post play, bait him into fouling, or simply send him to the line. He seems to play less minutes than most of his counterparts due to these negative qualities and seems like one of the harder players to trust that good things will happen when he's on the court


Because playing 40 min a game against Boston means that he isn't on the court most of the game. The fact is Howard is expected to do a lot more than Gasol on the defensive end. If Howard is giving Orlando the same amount of defense that Gasol or any other player in your top 10 his foul trouble wouldn't even be an issue.



> He does have great stats but I'd argue that they're seemingly empty since they don't impact the game like you expect to


The only impact that it makes is producing wins for Orlando. Other than that, theres not much you can do with those stats. It's not like Dwight can resurrect deads or turn rocks into gold with those rebounds and blocks. 



> Much like Amar'e, these recent AAU bigs seem like one dimensional players that don't have the mental toughness to be playoff winners.


This is the biggest joke of your entire collection of posts. I don't know how you can question Dwight for not being a winner when he has already proven to be able to lead a team deep into the playoffs.



Jakain said:


> Yea I am a Howard hater


Let's just end it on this note.


----------



## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

You guys are still debating with this guy? He reminds me of one of the many Kobe haters back before the Lakers started winning again. He's nitpicking at Dwight's weakpoints and downplaying his stregnths. Anyone that know what they're talking about knows that he's a top five player.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

VanillaPrice said:


> You guys are still debating with this guy? He reminds me of one of the many Kobe haters back before the Lakers started winning again. He's nitpicking at Dwight's weakpoints and downplaying his stregnths. Anyone that know what they're talking about knows that he's a top five player.


He's bring the debate to me via PM. I much rather doing it here though. This type of humor should be shared with everybody.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> He's *bring* the debate to me via PM. I much rather doing it here though. This type of humor should be shared with everybody.


You mean bringing or brought. 

"I much rather doing it here though"...

I'd much rather have it done here* 

There's humor involved in this?:


PM's:



Jakain said:


> "This is the biggest joke of your entire collection of posts. I don't know how you can question Dwight for not being a winner when he has already proven to be able to lead a team deep into the playoffs."
> 
> Not the only one that thinks that way, Howard's mental weaknesses were on full display this past playoffs:
> 
> http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/a...hitlock-052010





seifer0406 said:


> Go ahead and post it, you don't need my approval.





Jakain said:


> I actually had that listed in my last post but you probably didn't read it considering you didn't read the OP.
> 
> Howard is definitely a top 3-5 talent but most of my criticism was warranted even if my ultimate ranking wasn't
> 
> Howard's mental focus is one of the biggest weaknesses Orlando has.


---
:baseldance:


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> You mean bringing or brought.
> 
> "I much rather doing it here though"...
> 
> I'd much rather have it done here*


----------



## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

On a serious note I can't believe you are trying to convince us by citing an article written by a nobody. Did he write similar articles last year when the Magic went to the finals? Just who exactly is Jason Whitlock?


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## Duck (Jan 30, 2006)

Whitlock has never been a fan of the Magic. I'll admit, we weren't mentally tough enough when it counted this year. Last year's team had a decidedly different attitude, though. One of the more mentally tough squads that didn't win a championship in my recent memory. 

But how are you going to talk about lack of mental toughness and not bring up LeChoke? Despicable.


----------



## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> He's bring the debate to me via PM. I much rather doing it here though. This type of humor should be shared with everybody.


Yea, that must be sooo funny! Almost as funny as posting a picture of a Grammar badge after making a post calling out for PM's to be made public with really ****ty writing (and this is coming from me)!





seifer0406 said:


>


 



seifer0406 said:


> On a serious note I can't believe you are trying to convince us by citing an article written by a nobody. Did he write similar articles last year when the Magic went to the finals? Just who exactly is Jason Whitlock?


He's a relatively familiar sportswriter, feel free to google his older articles if you're genuinely interested though. And considering that most of the posters here are even more of a "nobody" and likely less knowledgeable than Whitlock when it comes to basketball...not sure where you're going although yea he's ultimately a talking head.

Howard's mental toughness and focus have been questioned by the media since those are areas he needs to work on. He even watched some kind of motivational movie that his family or friends recommended in order to improve his mental composure during a break in the playoffs. To Howard's credit though, he did improve significantly in those areas for the last two games of the ECF. Thats the kind of Dwight Howard that Orlando needs to be a championship ballclub - one that's confident and doesn't let the refs, physical contact, or the crowd get to him since his potential is high and importance to Orlando even greater. 



Duck34234 said:


> Whitlock has never been a fan of the Magic. I'll admit, we weren't mentally tough enough when it counted this year. Last year's team had a decidedly different attitude, though. One of the more mentally tough squads that didn't win a championship in my recent memory.
> 
> But how are you going to talk about lack of mental toughness and not bring up LeChoke? Despicable.


LeCrab was already out of the conference finals picture by the time the article was written, he focused on the conference championship series ballclubs and on Amar'e and Dwight.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> He's a relatively familiar sportswriter, feel free to google his older articles if you're genuinely interested though. And considering that most of the posters here are even more of a "nobody" and likely less knowledgeable than Whitlock when it comes to basketball...not sure where you're going although yea he's ultimately a talking head.
> 
> Howard's mental toughness and focus have been questioned by the media since those are areas he needs to work on. He even watched some kind of motivational movie that his family or friends recommended in order to improve his mental composure during a break in the playoffs. To Howard's credit though, he did improve significantly in those areas for the last two games of the ECF. Thats the kind of Dwight Howard that Orlando needs to be a championship ballclub - one that's confident and doesn't let the refs, physical contact, or the crowd get to him since his potential is high and importance to Orlando even greater.


I went ahead and wiki'd Whitlock....The guy isn't a nobody, he just has a history of writing controversial articles and he got fired from ESPN because he can't get along with other writers. Kind of reminds me of Charley Rosen, who also happens to work for Foxsports.

But let's ignore that and say that he is a credible source. Do you want me to dig up articles where writers praise Howard and Amare's game? I'm sure I'll have trouble finding pro-Dwight articles, I mean, he has only been on the All-NBA 1st team *3 times*.

If you want to argue your point, argue your point. I already asked why would you say that Dwight can't win in the playoffs when Orlando made it deep in the playoffs 2 straight years. I don't care if you google and list 10 other writers that may share your point, it still doesn't explain the obvious contradiction that you've brought upon.

Just one more thing regarding sportswriters. Guys write controversial stuff all the time just to get noticed and stay noticed. Learn to think for yourself and not just believe whatever piece of information that you happen to come across.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> I went ahead and wiki'd Whitlock....The guy isn't a nobody, he just has a history of writing controversial articles and he got fired from ESPN because he can't get along with other writers. Kind of reminds me of Charley Rosen, who also happens to work for Foxsports.
> 
> But let's ignore that and say that he is a credible source. Do you want me to dig up articles where writers praise Howard and Amare's game? I'm sure I'll have trouble finding pro-Dwight articles, I mean, he has only been on the All-NBA 1st team *3 times*.
> 
> If you want to argue your point, argue your point. I already asked why would you say that Dwight can't win in the playoffs when Orlando made it deep in the playoffs 2 straight years. I don't care if you google and list 10 other writers that may share your point, it still doesn't explain the obvious contradiction that you've brought upon.


I have been arguing my points and you gave the impression that Howard's weaknesses came out of left field when in fact many of them are shared across the NBA landscape. My ultimate ranking may seem off base but not so much his weaknesses. 

Howard's team has been strong enough to win despite his struggles (even able to sweep the lowly Bobcats with him seeing a lot of bench time) but his weaknesses eventually impedes their championship goals and ultimate playoffs success since he has difficulty staying on the court and maintaining focus. If Howard is faced against a decent defender with size, he can be taken out of the game seemingly much easier than anyone in the top 10 and back to the circular arguments. Then there's the argument that the state of the center position in the NBA is a pretty dismal one when Howard is supposedly the best big.

And then when I reference and reinforce that point through Private-Messaging, you go and post it on the god damn thread topic like its a lol-cat link :lol: 




> Just one more thing regarding sportswriters. Guys write controversial stuff all the time just to get noticed. Learn to think for yourself and not just believe whatever piece of information that you happen to come across.


True however these opinions and criticism of Howard and to an extent, Amar'e, are nothing really new and were of my own. Wasn't a fan of Howard's mentality ever since he started to whine about refs on his blog and I made a topic about such (when he whined on his blog again) before he made it to the ECF this year.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

The 'AAU mentality' the author cites is a poor argument though. The guy is knocking Amare and Dwight for skipping college, but then turns around and cites Kobe & KG as players who were brought up the right way to play w/in a team... All those guy were also brought up on the AAU circuit, straight out of HS. The author is a joke. The guy may have made 1 or 2 accurate points in the article, but the general lack of logic and thought he put into discredits everything. The icing is when he compares Dwight as a defender, to Amare... Once again, terrible. Why would you waste your(and our) time posting that article, Jakain? 

I dont think ppl disagree w/ all your points on Howard, many of them are accurate... But at the same time, you seem to not give him any credit for success or his stats. He is a highly tuned player and both ends, and does alot of things well. Not as raw as you seem to think. Pay closer attention next year, cause you are judging him based on 1 or 2 series against 2 of the top 5 defensive teams in the league.  Charlotte and Boston are not your run of the mill defensive teams(look it up).


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> I have been arguing my points and you gave the impression that Howard's weaknesses came out of left field when in fact many of them are shared across the NBA landscape. My ultimate ranking may seem off base but not so much his weaknesses.


When you're ready to answer the question regarding Howard not being a playoff winner yet somehow ends up winning a handful of series go ahead and throw it out there. Unless you are trying to say that Orlando is capable of going to the finals without Dwight Howard, is that what you're trying to say?



> And then when I reference and reinforce that point through Private-Messaging, you go and post it on the god damn thread topic like its a lol-cat link


You don't find it funny when someone tries to convince you by citing a no-name reporter? How about I try to convince you that the Earth is flat by citing Sherri Shepherd? I mean come on. At least Shepherd is on The View, I've never seen this dude anywhere.



> True however these opinions and criticism of Howard and to an extent, Amar'e, are nothing really new and were of my own. Wasn't a fan of Howard's mentality ever since he started to whine about refs on his blog and I made a topic about such (when he whined on his blog again) before he made it to the ECF this year.


Because players never complain about officiating.  The bottom line is that Orlando has been successful the past few years with Dwight Howard as their leader. When you're criticizing his game, keep that in mind and don't go overboard and exaggerates his weakness without acknowledging his strengths.


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## clien (Jun 2, 2005)

1. Kobe
2. LeBron
3. Wade
4. Melo
5. Durant
6. Paul
7. Nash
8. D-Will
9. Howard
10. Dirk


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> The 'AAU mentality' the author cites is a poor argument though. The guy is knocking Amare and Dwight for skipping college, but then turns around and cites Kobe & KG as players who were brought up the right way to play w/in a team... All those guy were also brought up on the AAU circuit, straight out of HS. The author is a joke. The guy may have made 1 or 2 accurate points in the article, but the general lack of logic and thought he put into discredits everything. The icing is when he compares Dwight as a defender, to Amare... Once again, terrible. Why would you waste your(and our) time posting that article, Jakain?


The AAU has changed since the days Kobe and KG were there, also a different league nowadays is what the author argued and I tend to agree. He compares their mentalities and both Amar'e and Dwight seem to be lacking when it comes to maintaining focus and competing on the level of Kobe, KG, etc.

And sorry for posting in this thread some more - I did try and stave that off by PMing seifer but he wanted to lol in a thread instead.



> I dont think ppl disagree w/ all your points on Howard, many of them are accurate... But at the same time, you seem to not give him any credit for success or his stats. He is a highly tuned player and both ends, and does alot of things well. Not as raw as you seem to think. Pay closer attention next year, cause you are judging him based on 1 or 2 series against 2 of the top 5 defensive teams in the league.  Charlotte and Boston are not your run of the mill defensive teams(look it up).


True enough although as long as a team has a 7 footer with some size and defensive ability they're going to give problems for Howard imo. I was quite frankly surprised by both Amar'e and Howard's performances in the playoffs since both were playing like they were the best bigs in the league and were on the best teams in their conferences after the all-star break.

BTW nice sig, no way in hell is Kobe a legit GOAT but I am painfully biased against Howard 




seifer0406 said:


> When you're ready to answer the question regarding Howard not being a playoff winner yet somehow ends up winning a handful of series go ahead and throw it out there. Unless you are trying to say that Orlando is capable of going to the finals without Dwight Howard, is that what you're trying to say?


Hmm not even sure how it came to this point of whether or not Howard's won, but of course he's won. However Howard's not as good of a #1 option offensively as the rest of the guys on the top 10, seems to be the most easily defended against, and seems to be the easiest to frustrate to prevent him from logging as many minutes as some of his counterparts. Still, the Orlando team is deep enough (and built around his weaknesses) that they have the depth to overcome bad series from Dwight such as their first round against the lowly Bobcats. 



> You don't find it funny when someone tries to convince you by citing a no-name reporter? How about I try to convince you that the Earth is flat by citing Sherri Shepherd? I mean come on. At least Shepherd is on The View, I've never seen this dude anywhere.


Didn't you just wiki him? Thought he was on ESPN? Since when do writers have to be seen on TV anyway?



> Because players never complain about officiating.  The bottom line is that Orlando has been successful the past few years with Dwight Howard as their leader. When you're criticizing his game, keep that in mind and don't go overboard and exaggerates his weakness without acknowledging his strengths.


If you read Howard's blog comments, its pretty repulsive when it comes to having a winning mentality. He acts as if he's being persecuted and comes across as a mental midget. And yea, compared to the rest of the top 10 players they don't really whine as much or have as questionable of a mental game (well maybe Carmelo). And at the end of the day, he's still a top 10 player.

You make your own top 10's without acknowledging any weakness or strength of any of the players listed. And you bring PM's into a thread to try and embarrass. You also put words into others mouths saying condescending **** like "Learn to think for yourself and not just believe whatever piece of information that you happen to come across", even though I've had similar criticisms of Howard before he even made it to the ECF.


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

You can't have a losers mentality if you have made it to the finals and ECF as the franchise player, Dwight may be immature, but he isn't Marbury.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

See as high as people place Paul and Durant they better get to the conference finals next year. I just can't see how they deserve to be placed so high. Nope regular season PER is not enough (in my eyes).


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> Hmm not even sure how it came to this point of whether or not Howard's won, but of course he's won.





Jakain said:


> Much like Amar'e, these recent AAU bigs seem like one dimensional players that don't have the mental toughness to be *playoff winners*.


Of course he's won despite not being a winner. I get it now.



> If you read Howard's blog comments, its pretty repulsive when it comes to having a winning mentality


If we measure this argument I'm sure it has the reach of the late Manute Bol.

You're questioning his mentality over a blog entry. I can only imagine what will happen if Dwight ever gets a technical. It is what it is, players complaining about calls. It happens everyday and you're again, exaggerating its meaning.



> You make your own top 10's without acknowledging any weakness or strength of any of the players listed. And you bring PM's into a thread to try and embarrass. You also put words into others mouths saying condescending **** like "Learn to think for yourself and not just believe whatever piece of information that you happen to come across", even though I've had similar criticisms of Howard before he even made it to the ECF.


Please, with the type of garbage that you've laid out in this thread, condescending statements toward you are the least of your problems. Don't act foolish if you don't want to be called a fool. You made a dumb move by listing a nobody to reinforce your point and I called you out on it. I can't help you if you're feeling embarrassed. Heck if I were you I'd stop posting and hide until October like Idunkonyou. Kind of ironic that you and him are on the exact opposite ends when it comes to D12 yet the statements made regarding him are equally false.


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> Didn't you just wiki him? Thought he was on ESPN? Since when do writers have to be seen on TV anyway?





> Whitlock went noticeably absent from any ESPN television work. He soon announced to The Kansas City Star readers in September 2006 that he was fired altogether from ESPN as a result of his remarks


That remark being a childish word fight with fellow page 2 writer and former Slam editor Scoop Jackson. After he got fired by ESPN in *2006* he ended up working for AOL and Foxsports.

The guy hasn't had a significant gig since 2006. I apologize for not including AOL sports and the Kansas City Star in my sources of basketball info.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

seifer0406 said:


> Of course he's won despite not being a winner. I get it now.
> 
> If we measure this argument I'm sure it has the reach of the late Manute Bol.
> 
> You're questioning his mentality over a blog entry. I can only imagine what will happen if Dwight ever gets a technical. It is what it is, players complaining about calls. It happens everyday and you're again, exaggerating its meaning.


Ah I see, you're right then, should've used "champ winners". And its not just a blog entry as I've stated numerous times about his overall lack of mental focus particularly when it comes to staying on the court. You combine how Howard had a historically awful first round series, played bad for half of his playoffs run, whining on his blog, body language on the court, how he was able to handle adversity, problems with fouls to the point of costing his team valuable minutes from their franchise player, etc. and it leaves a lot to be desired.



> Please, with the type of garbage that you've laid out in this thread, condescending statements toward you are the least of your problems. Don't act foolish if you don't want to be called a fool. You made a dumb move by listing a nobody to reinforce your point and I called you out on it. I can't help you if you're feeling embarrassed. Heck if I were you I'd stop posting and hide until October like Idunkonyou. Kind of ironic that you and him are on the exact opposite ends when it comes to D12 yet the statements made regarding him are equally false.



You didn't originally "call me out" by using a "nobody", you tried to "call me out" by making PM's public even though I was just reinforcing a previous post. You didn't even hint at the source's credibility then but thats understandable since you didn't read the OP or the post in question the first time around. You selectively criticize others for not ranking Howard as high as you want, you criticize that others don't have some kind of overall-ranking logic, and you criticize others for not acknowledging a player's strengths/weaknesses when you don't do any of that yourself and you try to veil personal attacks as arguments. You rank Kobe above Wade based on their value to their team and health, even though Kobe's lesser in both. 

You don't seem to really care about discussing as you are about somehow winning on the internetz for your epeen as evident in your numerous personal attacks in this thread and by trying to make PM's, public. Which is understandable.

At least I've got a bias against Howard to reinforce my posts. Beyond myself, others have also listed Howard low on the top 10's in this very thread in addition to the points laid out by Whitlock. What Whitlock wrote was nothing terribly new or exciting about how Amar'e and Dwight handled themselves. 




seifer0406 said:


> That remark being a childish word fight with fellow page 2 writer and former Slam editor Scoop Jackson. After he got fired by ESPN in *2006* he ended up working for AOL and Foxsports.
> 
> The guy hasn't had a significant gig since 2006. I apologize for not including AOL sports and the Kansas City Star in my sources of basketball info.


Apology accepted. 

And again, are writers supposed to be on TV like what you were saying earlier? Is Adrian Wojnarowski a bad source since you can't watch him on ESPN and is also working for a dotcom business?


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

clien said:


> *1. Kobe*
> 2. LeBron
> 3. Wade
> 4. Melo
> ...


Run for the hills!


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

HKF said:


> See as high as people place Paul and Durant they better get to the conference finals next year. I just can't see how they deserve to be placed so high. Nope regular season PER is not enough (in my eyes).


You know damn well they both won't get there.

And you also know better than anyone team success is the effort of 8-9 players, not 1. 

As long as Paul and Durant are producing at a strong rate they'll be fine and deserve their position in most of these rankings.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Jakain said:


> Run for the hills!


Hmmm. Another list that cannot be supported by much other than personal opinion. :smart:


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## seifer0406 (Jun 8, 2003)

Jakain said:


> Ah I see, you're right then, should've used "champ winners". And its not just a blog entry as I've stated numerous times about his overall lack of mental focus particularly when it comes to staying on the court. You combine how Howard had a historically awful first round series, played bad for half of his playoffs run, whining on his blog, body language on the court, how he was able to handle adversity, problems with fouls to the point of costing his team valuable minutes from their franchise player, etc. and it leaves a lot to be desired.


Yeah perhaps you should. I guess the Lakers aren't any good and they just happen to *upset* the Magic last year. The same goes with Boston as well. 



> You didn't originally "call me out" by using a "nobody", you tried to "call me out" by making PM's public even though I was just reinforcing a previous post. You didn't even hint at the source's credibility then but thats understandable since you didn't read the OP or the post in question the first time around.


Wait, so are you embarrassed because I posted that you were sending me PMs or are you embarrassed because I laughed at you citing Joe Whitlock as your bible? We need to establish this first before we go any further.


> You selectively criticize others for not ranking Howard as high as you want, you criticize that others don't have some kind of overall-ranking logic, and you criticize others for not acknowledging a player's strengths/weaknesses when you don't do any of that yourself and you try to veil personal attacks as arguments. You rank Kobe above Wade based on their value to their team and health, even though Kobe's lesser in both.


So if you come out and claim that "2+2=8", how much math do I have to prove to you before I can tell you that you're wrong?

I don't even understand the second part of your argument. Because I rank Wade lower than Kobe I'm lacking overall-logic? Care to explain to me why that is?



> You don't seem to really care about discussing as you are about somehow winning on the internetz for your epeen as evident in your numerous personal attacks in this thread and by trying to make PM's, public. Which is understandable.


Ah yes, the internet thug argument. Classic.

Let's see, you're the one that made a list that you admit is off-base, tried to prolong a losing argument by justifying your selection, and now is crying about it because people aren't buying it. I'm the jerk for pointing all that out.



> And again, are writers supposed to be on TV like what you were saying earlier? Is Adrian Wojnarowski a bad source since you can't watch him on ESPN and is also working for a dotcom business?


I don't know where I said that writers must be on TV. However they need to be doing something to stay relevant.

Moreover, I've already stated why it's not wise for you to list sources in this discussion. The simple reason is that for 1 no-name writer you can think of that may share your point, theres about 20 writers that I can find that shares mine.

The most comical part about this is that you listed him as a source in order to counter my argument that Howard is a playoff winner because he has won in the playoffs. You then go on to accept that you've made a mistake because you should've said championship winner instead.


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## parkerj0 (Jul 21, 2005)

This was such a good thread i had to put in my imput. Its been 1,806 days since i logged in, but maybe ill get more involved again. Anyhow, I chose my players based on i think they will do next year. I will take some hits, but its my opinion, and i have a right to it.

1. Lebron James - His all-aroung game just puts him to the top.
2. Kevin Durant - He is still young and i see him jumping into the elite next year.
3. Chris Paul - Could Energize any team and give them hope.
4. Dwayne Wade - His Atheticsm keeps him high in my books.
5. Danny Granger - Continues to improve despite not having much of a team.
6. Kobe Bryant - Still the best lights out shooter, but not the man he once was.
7. Dirk Nowitski - Big Man shooting from the outside, a threat anywhere, even if he leaves Dallas.
8. Dwight Howard - A love this guy for his defensive, but cant really runa an offense thru him. 
9. Pau Gasol - Not the best looking guy, but hustles and plays hard every play, never gives up.
10. Carmelo Anthony - Very Consistent, and another guy with lots of heart.

And then, i tallied everyone results and the results are pretty inclusive to this threads top ten. Below is the name and there average vote.

1. Lebron James 9.77
2. Kobe Bryant 8.86
3. Dwayne Wade 7.57
4. Chris Paul 6.31
5. Dwight Howard 6.00
6. Kevin Durant 5.14
7. Deron Willimas 3.66
8. Dirk Nowitski 2.74
9. Carmelo Anthony2.11
10.Pau Gasol 1.29
11.Steve Nash .49


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

I can see a case for Lebron, Wade, Paul, and Wade. But there is no way Danny Granger is better then Kobe Bean Bryant.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HKF said:


> See as high as people place Paul and Durant they better get to the conference finals next year. I just can't see how they deserve to be placed so high. Nope regular season PER is not enough (in my eyes).


I've never seen someone be consistent with this logic is the problem. Is Nash better than Paul because he made the conference finals? Ray better than Wade? Of course not, but if top 5 players can't be top 5 players without making the conference finals (like you say), then that means only players in the conference finals can be top 5. Which means the Lakers, Suns, Celtics and Magic make up who will be in the top 5. Nash, Kobe, Pierce, Ray, and Howard are not the 5 best players in the league. Sorry they're just not.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Sir Patchwork said:


> I've never seen someone be consistent with this logic is the problem. Is Nash better than Paul because he made the conference finals? Ray better than Wade? Of course not, but if top 5 players can't be top 5 players without making the conference finals (like you say), then that means only players in the conference finals can be top 5. Which means the Lakers, Suns, Celtics and Magic make up who will be in the top 5. Nash, Kobe, Pierce, Ray, and Howard are not the 5 best players in the league. Sorry they're just not.


The problem with everything you're saying is it's 100% based on stats in the regular season. Because in what world is Chris Paul more valuable than a Dwight Howard, other than in fantasy. Obviously Chris Paul is more valuable than Chris Kaman or Andrew Bogut, but not Dwight Howard.

If Paul is the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league, it stands to reason that the Hornets next year should win 55 games (the team isn't that bad) and be expected to make noise when they get into the playoffs.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

HKF said:


> The problem with everything you're saying is it's 100% based on stats in the regular season. Because in what world is Chris Paul more valuable than a Dwight Howard, other than in fantasy. Obviously Chris Paul is more valuable than Chris Kaman or Andrew Bogut, but not Dwight Howard.
> 
> If Paul is the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league, it stands to reason that the Hornets next year should win 55 games (the team isn't that bad) and be expected to make noise when they get into the playoffs.


 So is 07-08 too long ago to be used as an example of what paul can do? 56 wins, a game away from WCF, and notched his already stellar numbers up even more in the postseason. Truth be told, the team might not be 'that bad", but it certainly isn't that good, if the hornets win 55 games or anywhere near that number next season it will be 110% the result of chris pauls play.


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## HKF (Dec 10, 2002)

Tooeasy said:


> So is 07-08 too long ago to be used as an example of what paul can do? 56 wins, a game away from WCF, and notched his already stellar numbers up even more in the postseason. Truth be told, the team might not be 'that bad", but it certainly isn't that good, if the hornets win 55 games or anywhere near that number next season it will be 110% the result of chris pauls play.


Fine. I'm perfectly content to let that be the expectation. If the team is still floating around .500 I don't want to hear all this better than Howard talk. That's where I take issue with this whole thread. You guys are fans of him so great, but I am a fan of D-Will and Melo and I'd never take them over Howard.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

HKF said:


> Fine. I'm perfectly content to let that be the expectation. If the team is still floating around .500 I don't want to hear all this better than Howard talk. That's where I take issue with this whole thread. You guys are fans of him so great, but I am a fan of D-Will and Melo and I'd never take them over Howard.


07-08 Hornets win 56 games, Paul plays 80 games
08-09 Hornets win 49 games, Paul plays 78 games
09-10 Hornets win 37 games, Paul plays 45 games


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

HKF said:


> The problem with everything you're saying is it's 100% based on stats in the regular season. Because in what world is Chris Paul more valuable than a Dwight Howard, other than in fantasy. Obviously Chris Paul is more valuable than Chris Kaman or Andrew Bogut, but not Dwight Howard.


It's not all based on stats, it's based on productive basketball. If Paul is your point guard, he is going to create high percentage shots for himself and his teammates while turning the ball over very little. High percentage shots plus low turnovers is a lot for an individual to contribute. Howard controls interior defense and rebounding, Paul controls pace and said things. They do different things, but they're not on different levels. 



HKF said:


> If Paul is the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league, it stands to reason that the Hornets next year should win 55 games (the team isn't that bad) and be expected to make noise when they get into the playoffs.


The difference between them winning 45 and 55 will be his teammates making shots and staying healthy. Kobe was the best player in the league and his team won 45 games and lost in the 1st round. The problem with your argument is that there is a hole for every player. Kobe was a loser, now hes a winner. Wade was a winner, now hes a loser. They've been great the whole time, their surroundings changed. People can fabricate this leadership crap all they want, but I'm not buying it. It makes more sense that a mediocre team won a mediocre amount of games while a great team won a lot of games, regardless of who their best player was.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> And no, Deron doesn't "routinely" post up Paul. You just made that up. They stick to pick and roll basketball like always.


Just about every team in the NBA runs more pick-and-roll than the Utah Jazz.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

bballlife said:


> Just about every team in the NBA runs more pick-and-roll than the Utah Jazz.


Yeah seriously! Jerry Sloan hates the pick and roll. He hates it more than zone defense. He's old school. He doesn't rely on the pick and roll as an offensive weapon. :bowen:


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Hyperion said:


> Yeah seriously! Jerry Sloan hates the pick and roll. He hates it more than zone defense. He's old school. He doesn't rely on the pick and roll as an offensive weapon. :bowen:


Hilarious! He implied that they run a lot of pick-and-roll and they simply do not.


> The Utah Jazz and the Los Angeles Lakers used the play the least in the N.B.A. last season. Only 11 percent of their offensive plays originated with the pick-and-roll.



http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/sports/basketball/20pick.html

Pretty neat, sarcastic response, though.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

bballlife said:


> Hilarious! He implied that they run a lot of pick-and-roll and they simply do not.
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/sports/basketball/20pick.html
> ...


Let me get this straight, Williams-Boozer is not a pick and roll? I see the article, I call it bull****, mainly because nearly 80% of Boozer's hoops are assisted. According to the article, Nash used the PnR 60% of the time but for some reason the Suns weren't the top users of the PnR offense? I don't think they know what the PnR is. Maybe they aren't counting the PnR when they pop to the elbow for a jumper. 

Pretty much every single Suns possession when Nash was on the court started with a high screen and roll in 2008.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Hyperion said:


> Let me get this straight, Williams-Boozer is not a pick and roll? I see the article, I call it bull****, mainly because nearly 80% of Boozer's hoops are assisted. According to the article, Nash used the PnR 60% of the time but for some reason the Suns weren't the top users of the PnR offense? I don't think they know what the PnR is. Maybe they aren't counting the PnR when they pop to the elbow for a jumper.
> 
> Pretty much every single Suns possession when Nash was on the court started with a high screen and roll in 2008.




Yes, A NY Times article based on Synergy data (which every team in the NBA uses) is BS. You're on to something.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

bballlife said:


> Yes, A NY Times article based on Synergy data (which every team in the NBA uses) is BS. You're on to something.


Statistically speaking, yes. This is the same source that declared Aaron Afflalo to be a top defender in the NBA last year along with Marion, Rondo, KG, and Howard. Can't really say that three of those people belong on that list.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

Maybe he thinks that because Boozer pops after he picks it's not a pick and roll. Who cares. They set a lot of screens and the screener usually ends up with a good shot off the defender helping on the ballhandler. That's under the branch of pick and roll.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

They run a lot of Flex, Princeton, 4-out stuff. Of course, they play pick-and-roll as well, but it's not a huge part, and Sloan's quote from that article should give you a good idea why. 


If Boozer pops, it doesn't change the fact that it's a pick-and-roll.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Hyperion said:


> Statistically speaking, yes.


The hilarity continues on this site.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

1. LeBron James
2. Dwight Howard
3. Deron Williams
4. Chris Paul
5. Dwayne Wade
6. Brandon Roy
7. Steve Nash
8. Kobe Bryant
9. Kevin Durant
10. Healthy Yao Ming


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## Ben (Nov 7, 2006)

Prolific Scorer said:


> 1. LeBron James
> 2. Dwight Howard
> 3. Deron Williams
> 4. Chris Paul
> ...


Huh?


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Prolific Scorer said:


> 1. LeBron James
> 2. Dwight Howard
> 3. Deron Williams
> 4. Chris Paul
> ...


Worst top 10 ever?


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

You heard what the man said...Lebron is better than Kobe :laugh:


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

FX™ said:


> Huh?


He is a Magic fan doesn't surprise me....


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Game3525 said:


> He is a Magic fan doesn't surprise me....


I don't even completely hate Howard 2nd (obviously I don't agree, but still)...but Brandon Roy is better than Kobe? Deron Williams is the third best player in the league? That's ridiculous.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

Prolific Scorer said:


> 1. LeBron James
> 2. Dwight Howard
> 3. Deron Williams
> 4. Chris Paul
> ...


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## 29380 (Feb 23, 2009)

Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Dwight Howard
Dwayne Wade
Chris Paul
Kevin Durant
Carmelo Anthony
Deron Williams
Brandon Roy
Pau Gasol


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## Maldito21 (Jun 13, 2010)

Knicks4life said:


> Lebron James
> Kobe Bryant
> Dwight Howard
> Dwayne Wade
> ...


This is VERY close to how I see it.

1.Lebron James
2.Kobe Bryant
3.Dwayne Wade
4.Dwight Howard
5.Chris Paul
6.Kevin Durant
7.Carmelo Anthony
8.Deron WIlliams
9.Chris Bosh
and 10. Steve Nash
I wanted to give it to Dirk Nowitzki and Brandon Roy but I think Steve Nash deserves it more.

The way I see it, you take any of those players off their team, where will their team stand at the end of the year lottery, playoffs, championships...


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

So seriously though people don't think the Lakers would've done just as well with Duncan instead of Gasol..and that the Raptors wouldn't be better with Duncan?


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## Maldito21 (Jun 13, 2010)

Dre™ said:


> So seriously though people don't think the Lakers would've done just as well with Duncan instead of Gasol..and that the Raptors wouldn't be better with Duncan?


You think the Lakers would have won the Championship with a player like Mike Miller as SG instead of Kobe Bryant?? All i'm saying is where would their teams have been without them not replace them with another really good player. Would the Laker have won it all with Lebron James instead of Kobe or with D Wade instead of Kobe? I think so.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

All over the place :uhoh:...just answer my question specifically if you're gonna answer it...


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## Maldito21 (Jun 13, 2010)

Dre™ said:


> So seriously though people don't think the Lakers would've done just as well with Duncan instead of Gasol..and that the Raptors wouldn't be better with Duncan?


Lakers would have done well with Duncan in that triangle offense but Toronto would not have had a better record with Duncan in the lineup. What is your point? Are you suggesting Duncan is one of the top players in the league? If so you would have been right 3 years ago, he has not been a top 10 player since then. Def a top 20 but not a top ten. Sorry.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Duncan is better than Gasol and Bosh, that's my point.


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Dre™ said:


> So seriously though people don't think the Lakers would've done just as well with Duncan instead of Gasol..and that the Raptors wouldn't be better with Duncan?


For the playoffs, I'd pick Duncan over those guys. 

However in the regular season, Gasol and Bosh should be able to average more minutes and while they may not always put up better stats with more minutes; having their presence on the floor still helps their team.

LA would be a much better fit for Duncan considering they have a frontcourt that can help mask Duncan's decline. The past two seasons, Duncan has had Matt Bonner and an ancient Antonio McDyess as his help protecting the rim which seemed pretty lackluster....so maybe he could even help the Raptors to the playoffs but there's always the minutes/mileage argument.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

I think the Spurs are just being cautious with Duncan's knees, if need be, he could go without all that minutes management for another year or so, and still be more productive and valuable than Gasol or Bosh.


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## Maldito21 (Jun 13, 2010)

Dre™ said:


> Duncan is better than Gasol and Bosh, that's my point.


Duncan is a proven player, has accomplished a lot during his NBA career but I would not take him right now over Chris Bosh, maybe and I mean maybe over Pau Gasol but def not over Chris Bosh. Sorry I don't see your point. Tim Duncan had a hard time keeping up w/ Amar'e this postseason, you telling me Duncan is a top ten player?? I don't even have Amar'e as a top ten so I def wouldn't have Tim Duncan as a top ten.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Amare consistently abused Duncan even in his prime.


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## Prolific Scorer (Dec 16, 2005)

Dre™ said:


> You heard what the man said...Lebron is better than Kobe :laugh:


mg:


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## Maldito21 (Jun 13, 2010)

Dre™ said:


> Amare consistently abused Duncan even in his prime.


True. But do you feel that Duncan, right now, is a top ten player? Can you see yourself starting an NBA franchise and selecting Tim Duncan to be the face of the franchise before any of my top ten?


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## Kaas (Apr 8, 2003)

I know this is top 10...so go ahead and only consider my top 10, but for me there are 19 game changers in the NBA right now. The order of those 19 is up for debate, but I don't think anyone outside of them can be placed ahead of them. I would make it 20, but I think there are many who have an argument for that 20th spot. Franchise players would be cut off at the top 3 and superstars after 6.

1. LeBron James
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwight Howard
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Deron Williams
6. Chris Paul
7. Kevin Durant
8. Dirk Nowitzki
9. Tim Duncan
10. Brandon Roy
11. Chris Bosh
12. Pau Gasol
13. Steve Nash
14. Carmelo Anthony
15. Yao Ming
16. Amar'e Stoudemire
17. Rajon Rondo
18. Derrick Rose
19. Paul Pierce


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Kaas said:


> I know this is top 10...so go ahead and only consider my top 10, but for me there are 19 game changers in the NBA right now. The order of those 19 is up for debate, but I don't think anyone outside of them can be placed ahead of them. I would make it 20, but I think there are many who have an argument for that 20th spot. Franchise players would be cut off at the top 3 and superstars after 6.
> 
> 1. LeBron James
> 2. Kobe Bryant
> ...


As much as I respect the guy, Deron Williams is not a top five player, period.


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## Kaas (Apr 8, 2003)

People into stats fail to realize Chris Paul has the ball in his hands 90% of the time, while Deron plays in a motion offense. If he played in a Pick & Roll offense his #'s would be gaudy, like Paul, Wade, and LeBron. His man defense is also better than Paul's. He's one of those players, just like everyone above him (and Paul) where he's the ideal player for the scheme his team runs.

I find it ironic that people will concede that stats aren't everything with Kobe but not give Deron the same benefit. The NBA isn't the NFL or the MLB. Stats aren't as important in it. Even the advanced ones need to have proper context to be relevant.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Kaas said:


> People into stats fail to realize Chris Paul has the ball in his hands 90% of the time, while Deron plays in a motion offense. If he played in a Pick & Roll offense his #'s would be gaudy, like Paul, Wade, and LeBron. His man defense is also better than Paul's. He's one of those players, just like everyone above him (and Paul) where he's the ideal player for the scheme his team runs.
> 
> I find it ironic that people will concede that stats aren't everything with Kobe but not give Deron the same benefit. The NBA isn't the NFL or the MLB. Stats aren't as important in it. Even the advanced ones need to have proper context to be relevant.


I never said Deron wasn't a great player. I had him 7th or 8th on my list. I just don't think he's a top five player (because he's not) and I don't think that he's better then Paul (because he's not). You didn't really even give an explanation as to why Deron is better, (except for the defense, which is a wash anyway considering Paul is the best ballhawk in the league) you just kindof went off about how stats aren't all knowing. Which I agree with to an extent, but if the stats are telling me one thing and I'm not seeing a profound difference in the impact of Deron's game as compared to Paul's, then I'm going to take Paul every time.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Chris Paul isn't close to being the best ball hawk in the NBA.

I think his explanation is there. Most people look at the difference in stats between the two and rank Paul as superior even though Paul plays in an offense that is more conducive to a perimeter player getting point and assists.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

So Chris Paul plays in what sort of offense that produces stats...Like turnovers maybe? you idiots always claim that the Hornets system produces stats, except you never say a ****ing word about turnovers. That's a stat too...If you can't explain them in your argument then your argument is retarded and I'm calling all of you out on it once and for all. Put the **** up or shut the **** up.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

bballlife said:


> Chris Paul isn't close to being the best ball hawk in the NBA.
> 
> I think his explanation is there. Most people look at the difference in stats between the two and rank Paul as superior even though Paul plays in an offense that is more conducive to a perimeter player getting point and assists.


Sloan's offense is notorious for getting point guards high assist numbers so I'm not quite sure what your angle is. And if Chris Paul isn't the best ballhawk in the league then who is? I could see a case being made for Rondo, even though the only reason he's so sucsessful is because he has two great defensive big men to cover him when he gets burned at all times.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Needless to say, a great point guard is going to get assists no matter what offense. "The angle" is the type of offense. The ball distribution and player movement is much different. Utah's offense has much more guard-to-guard passing, guard-to-wing passing, high and low post entry passing, etc. 4,5 players are touching the ball on a lot of their sets. A pick-and-roll is a 2-man game that creates an advantage in the half-court. The player with the ball in his hands has the most opportunity to take advantage of the imbalance created in the defense. Defender going under the screen, defender chasing over, a switch... all of these things give the guy with the ball in his hands an advantage to hurt the defense. 

What is your definition of a ballhawk?


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Diable said:


> So Chris Paul plays in what sort of offense that produces stats...Like turnovers maybe? you idiots always claim that the Hornets system produces stats, except you never say a ****ing word about turnovers. That's a stat too...If you can't explain them in your argument then your argument is retarded and I'm calling all of you out on it once and for all. Put the **** up or shut the **** up.



What? In general, he has more opportunities to score, assist, and yes, turn the ball over. I don't get why it's so hard to comprehend the fundamental differences in the offenses. Paul takes his opportunities and produces quite well, without turning the ball over a whole lot, and that's a credit to his skill. He's great. But some people think Deron has the ability to produce similar numbers if he played in a pick-and-roll dominant offense.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

exactly who is supposed to be silly enough to buy that crap? It isn't me so it must be you. I say again Put up or Shut up..Forever


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Diable said:


> exactly who is supposed to be silly enough to buy that crap? It isn't me so it must be you. I say again Put up or Shut up..Forever


Buy what crap? It's not a theory, it's a simple observation for anyone who knows anything about basketball offenses. What exactly did I say that you don't believe?


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

It seems like there's some really short sighted people in this thread. Last season Paul gets hurt and Deron has a good playoff showing and all of a sudden Paul's a product of a system and Deron is a top 5 player. Amusing, to say the least.


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

You can knock Paul's statistics for playing in a system that trusts him to carry the team, but then can't provide reasoning for why Deron Williams is better. 

What does he do better than Chris Paul? Once we get some kind of answer there, we can actually compare their abilities without looking at the system. 

The problem is, systems aside, there isn't really one thing Deron Williams does better than Chris Paul. Not ball handling. Not shooting. Not scoring. Not passing. Not playmaking. Not defense. Chris has an advantage in every category, even if only slightly.


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## Kaas (Apr 8, 2003)

VanillaPrice said:


> I never said Deron wasn't a great player. I had him 7th or 8th on my list. I just don't think he's a top five player (because he's not) and I don't think that he's better then Paul (because he's not). You didn't really even give an explanation as to why Deron is better, (except for the defense, which is a wash anyway considering Paul is the best ballhawk in the league) you just kindof went off about how stats aren't all knowing. Which I agree with to an extent, but if the stats are telling me one thing and I'm not seeing a profound difference in the impact of Deron's game as compared to Paul's, then I'm going to take Paul every time.


As bballlife said, I did give a reason. Multiple in fact. The main one I was pointing out was how he plays in a different system, so don't look solely at statistics. Stats matter, I never said they didn't. I think Chris Paul is great. He has just as much a claim to the best PG in the league as Deron does. I think it's just a matter of personal preference. I also said _man defense_ when saying Deron was better. Paul is better at playing the passing lanes, undoubtedly. 

My point about stats was that if you look solely at them then LeBron, Wade, and Paul are the three best players in the league. But outside of Hollinger's PER acolytes, there is a general consensus that Kobe is the 2nd best player in the league (some say 3rd or 4th, some say 1st, but on average he's rated 2nd). PER is an interesting stat, but it doesn't determine the best player in the league. It's simply an efficiency rating as its name indicates (and it's a subjective one at that).



Diable said:


> So Chris Paul plays in what sort of offense that produces stats...Like turnovers maybe? you idiots always claim that the Hornets system produces stats, except you never say a ****ing word about turnovers. That's a stat too...If you can't explain them in your argument then your argument is retarded and I'm calling all of you out on it once and for all. Put the **** up or shut the **** up.


That is one of the things Paul does better than Deron. It's not like I'm claiming some huge gap in their talents. Paul is great at protecting the rock, which is all the more impressive considering how often he holds it. Jose Calderon racks up (or did) better assist to turnover ratios, but no one is going to be crazy enough to say that he's a better PG than Paul, Deron, Nash, Rondo, Rose, etc. When you analyze a player, you look at the complete picture.



VanillaPrice said:


> Sloan's offense is notorious for getting point guards high assist numbers so I'm not quite sure what your angle is. And if Chris Paul isn't the best ballhawk in the league then who is? I could see a case being made for Rondo, even though the only reason he's so sucsessful is because he has two great defensive big men to cover him when he gets burned at all times.


In the 80's you won with up tempo, high possession basketball. In the 90's, isolation and P&R were the name of the game. Both decade's styles of play helped create big assist numbers. That said, Stockton was the type of PG who would rack them up regardless, due to his vision and skill. In the current NBA, half-court ball movement gives you the best chance to succeed. Duncan's Spurs relied on the simple, but effective strategy of entry pass, and then play in-out to create openings in the defense. Duncan has racked up many hockey assists. Similar to what Shaq and the Lakers did in their first three peat with the triangle. Now the new look Lakers will run the triple post offense that revolves around post passing, and is often initiated in the high post. Sloan is a coach who adapts to the times which is why he ran a flex offense this year and a motion offense last year. He predicates that his team play with constant ball movement because it's a proven key to success and he also doesn't have the post players that allow him to run that dump it in and kick it out game.



GregOden said:


> It seems like there's some really short sighted people in this thread. Last season Paul gets hurt and Deron has a good playoff showing and all of a sudden Paul's a product of a system and Deron is a top 5 player. Amusing, to say the least.


Or...there's some people who think both are great players and you can't go wrong with either? They bring different skills to their teams. Only a fool would say that Chris Paul is a product of a system. You guys are putting words in people's mouths now. I'm saying that #'s don't mean everything, you have to account for the system. I think Deron's #'s would rise in a Pick & Roll game, but I think neither would be as good in the opposite players offense.

I'll go with the #'s from 2 years ago, since that takes into account a healthy Chris Paul. He was 22.8/11 and Deron was 19.4/10.7. Chris Paul player 2 minutes more a game and in an offense where he handled the ball more. You don't think Deron would surpass Paul's #'s if he played in the same system? He would get more turnovers undoubtedly, but he would score and dish more as well.

I remember after Chris Paul's MVP caliber season, I got in a long ass debate with my cousin-in-law at another cousin's wedding that Deron was just as good as Paul and they were in different situations. Everyone else got bored as **** and left us in a corner while we went back and forth for hours arguing whether Paul was better (him) or if Deron was just as good (me). My point is, I'm not just changing my tune because I have the attention span of ESPN.



Sir Patchwork said:


> You can knock Paul's statistics for playing in a system that trusts him to carry the team, but then can't provide reasoning for why Deron Williams is better.
> 
> What does he do better than Chris Paul? Once we get some kind of answer there, we can actually compare their abilities without looking at the system.
> 
> The problem is, systems aside, there isn't really one thing Deron Williams does better than Chris Paul. Not ball handling. Not shooting. Not scoring. Not passing. Not playmaking. Not defense. Chris has an advantage in every category, even if only slightly.



No one is knocking his stats, my point was that stats don't tell the whole story. The systems people play in make a difference too. There's a reason Jordan went from averaging 8 assists a game to never averaging more than 6.3 for the rest of his career once he started playing in the triangle.

Many contend that Deron Williams has the best crossover in the league if you want to start with ball handling. He also is better at scoring via slashing. When you think of penetrate and dish, you think of Chris Paul, but Deron scores more points inside the paint, making his kick out just as dangerous, since he is a threat to score if the opposition doesn't collapse in on him. Rebounding is an edge people give to Paul, but that doesn't take into account the fact that Deron plays with better rebounders. If you look at their rebounding %'s, you will see they're practically identical, with Deron getting slightly more offensive boards, and Paul getting slightly more defensive boards per rebounding chance. Factoring in their teammates, it makes looking solely at stats even less viable.

As I said earlier, Deron is a better man defender. Paul can give you an extra two possessions (which often lead in free points off a fast break) with his ability to get a hand on passed balls, even if it ends with a deflection and not just a steal for him. That said, I'd prefer a big body, that can guard multiple positions, and not get posted up by any other point guard. He can also stay in front of his man well laterally on the perimeter (people forget how good an athlete he is...despite being much heavier than Paul and a couple of inches taller, Deron had a very high vertical himself, and essentially matched him in the sprint at the pre-draft combine). We've all seen how well he matches up against Paul, and while I don't think that's the deciding factor here, it proves he can handle quicker guards better than Paul can handle big guards (not saying Paul can't or doesn't play well against Deron...just to get that out of the way right now because I'm sure someone will bitch about this statement). Deron is a better passer along the perimeter too, which often gets overlooked, since it's a skill many point guards don't utilize often (unless they have a superstar wing with them--which neither player does).

Paul does things better than Deron though. He's great in transition (though Deron is severely underrated in his ability to lead a break...I don't know if there's much separating Paul, Nash, Rondo, and Deron they all excel in a full court game). He shoots less 3's but he does it at a high rate that Deron only started to match this year. He is also a more efficient shooter in general, and that include free throws. Don't get me wrong, I love Chris Pauls' game. After watching him at Wake Forest (he's probably my favorite college player of the last 10 years--not a CBB fan in general, so me being a fan of a player at that level means I respect the **** out of what they accomplished at that level), I suspected he would be the #1 pick and was astounded that people were questioning him and skipping over him due to his height. Seriously? GMs are stupid more often than not.






After making all these responses, what is the lesson learned? Chris Paul fanboys get more butt hurt than Wade fanboys when they think someone is speaking ill of their guy. What is wrong with Deron ranked 5th? I just went through the thread a bit and saw Dre had him 5th (Paul 6th) and HKF had him 6th (Paul 5th). Those are two pretty respected posters on this board. Just because I usually avoid the NBA Forum, it doesn't mean I don't watch basketball. I don't post often in the board's main forum because you have to deal with people who get too emotional when it comes to their favorite team/player.

Paul and Deron is a coin toss, and it depends on what you prefer. They both do things slightly better than the other. But both players are still great at the skills that the other player has over them. It is a pick 'em choice to me. That was my point. I don't have some Chris Paul bashing agenda. I like the guy. Jeez, calm down people.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Kaas said:


> Or...there's some people who think both are great players and you can't go wrong with either? They bring different skills to their teams. Only a fool would say that Chris Paul is a product of a system. You guys are putting words in people's mouths now. I'm saying that #'s don't mean everything, you have to account for the system. I think Deron's #'s would rise in a Pick & Roll game, but I think neither would be as good in the opposite players offense.
> 
> I'll go with the #'s from 2 years ago, since that takes into account a healthy Chris Paul. He was 22.8/11 and Deron was 19.4/10.7. Chris Paul player 2 minutes more a game and in an offense where he handled the ball more. You don't think Deron would surpass Paul's #'s if he played in the same system? He would get more turnovers undoubtedly, but he would score and dish more as well.
> 
> I remember after Chris Paul's MVP caliber season, I got in a long ass debate with my cousin-in-law at another cousin's wedding that Deron was just as good as Paul and they were in different situations. Everyone else got bored as **** and left us in a corner while we went back and forth for hours arguing whether Paul was better (him) or if Deron was just as good (me). My point is, I'm not just changing my tune because I have the attention span of ESPN.


So as a bare minimum to your argument, you're saying Paul plays in a system that leads to higher assists and points, and that if Deron played in the same system he'd score more points and get more assists than he does now. Yet admit that he would turn the ball over more...so how exactly does that make him the better player?

Stats can only be used in an argument to a point, because they aren't the be all-end all to every discussion. However, this is a case where the stats and the tape will be clearly in one favor. 

But hey, Deron is bigger, right?


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## Kaas (Apr 8, 2003)

GregOden said:


> So as a bare minimum to your argument, you're saying Paul plays in a system that leads to higher assists and points, and that if Deron played in the same system he'd score more points and get more assists than he does now. Yet admit that he would turn the ball over more...so how exactly does that make him the better player?
> 
> Stats can only be used in an argument to a point, because they aren't the be all-end all to every discussion. However, this is a case where the stats and the tape will be clearly in one favor.
> 
> But hey, Deron is bigger, right?


ok guy. go ahead and read my post selectively so you spin your agenda and miss the whole point of my post.


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## bballlife (Oct 5, 2003)

Sir Patchwork said:


> You can knock Paul's statistics for playing in a system that trusts him to carry the team, but then can't provide reasoning for why Deron Williams is better.



I'm not knocking Paul's statistics. Their coaching staff decided that their talent dictates that a pick-and-roll offense gives them the best opportunity to win games. 

I don't believe I stated that Williams was better. I don't know who is better. I think Williams looked like the better player last season. 



> What does he do better than Chris Paul? Once we get some kind of answer there, we can actually compare their abilities without looking at the system.
> 
> 
> The problem is, systems aside, there isn't really one thing Deron Williams does better than Chris Paul. Not ball handling. Not shooting. Not scoring. Not passing. Not playmaking. Not defense. Chris has an advantage in every category, even if only slightly.


I think Williams gives any team more options offensively. He has more range on his jumper and is vastly superior shooting the ball on the move & off screens. Williams can and does post smaller guards and score on them in the post. He cuts and moves better off the ball. (Though, I admit, this is harder to gauge because of the fundamental differences between the two offenses.) I think this is harder to substantiate, but I also think Williams is the better transition guard in terms of seeing the floor, pushing it up, and also attacking in early offense. Those are the big offensive advantages I see over Chris Paul.

I don't know who is better overall defensively. I think Deron might be in most situations. Paul is probably better relocating in a pick-and-roll to stop the drive, Williams is likely better chasing over the screen and contesting the shot. What is interesting is their shooting percentages against in specific situations. Williams is better in all the major areas. (isolation, post, pick-and-roll, spot ups)

Deron is the bigger, stronger guard, and those physical advantages certainly help him do things like close out on shooters and defend bigger guards. Of course, Paul has his own advantages. His quickness, tenacity and hands help him deflect and steal the ball more. Defensively, I think you can make a good case for Williams. Overall, it has to be pretty close.


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## Tooeasy (Nov 4, 2003)

just have to throw it out there, chris pauls pick and roll partner is david west, who in turn takes the ball and runs it like an isolation set, attempting to take his man off the dribble and pull up for the 15-18 footer, which negates pauls ability to score an assist on it a great deal of time. If this breaks down, west kicks the ball back out and attempts to repost, sometimes leads in the ball getting pushed around to the perimeter players and negates the assist ability as well. Chris' main assist beneficiary since his tenure has been chandler(no longer on the team) and peja, who actually spent a decent amount of time down on the block last year in an attempt to post up somewhat to gain position and eventually settle for a fallaway 10-15 footer. None of these things benefited chris, yet he still managed to spoon feed his players to the tune of 11 apg.


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## BlackNRed (Feb 9, 2005)

Here's the accurate list.

1. Dwyane Wade
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Lebron James
4. Kevin Durant
5. Dwight Howard
6. Deron Williams
7. Chris Paul.
8. Dirk Nowitzki
9. Chris Bosh
10. Pau Gasol


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Kaas said:


> ok guy. go ahead and read my post selectively so you spin your agenda and miss the whole point of my post.


I simply responded to your response to a post of mine you quoted, I didn't spin anything.


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## Hyperion (Dec 5, 2006)

GregOden said:


> So as a bare minimum to your argument, you're saying Paul plays in a system that leads to higher assists and points, and that if Deron played in the same system he'd score more points and get more assists than he does now. Yet admit that he would turn the ball over more...so how exactly does that make him the better player?
> 
> Stats can only be used in an argument to a point, because they aren't the be all-end all to every discussion. However, this is a case where the stats and the tape will be clearly in one favor.
> 
> But hey, Deron is bigger, right?


Deron is a better defender. Paul is better offensively. If you don't have a quality 2/3 defender, then you need a good PG defender. Paul is a good defender, but Williams is better due to his size. It depends on what you need. Like say the Magic had offers from both NO and UTAH for Nelson in exchange for their starting PG. They'd go with Paul 10/10 because they have Howard. However if the Lakers had the same deal but for Fisher the Lakers would probably go for Williams because they have Kobe. 

At this point, they are 2A 2B and it really doesn't matter who you select. They're both elite point gurads. Dragic will surpass them though.





* Nash is number one and that's too effing bad if you disagree because he could lose one of his hands in a fishing accident and then lose his leg in a car accident from trying to drive with one hook while slapping a hooking in his car and STILL be the best point guard in the NBA


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## Sir Patchwork (Jan 12, 2005)

bballlife said:


> I don't believe I stated that Williams was better. I don't know who is better. I think Williams looked like the better player last season.


When Paul was hurt? How is that fair? Paul was having his best season until he went down. 



bballlife said:


> I think Williams gives any team more options offensively. He has more range on his jumper and is vastly superior shooting the ball on the move & off screens.


I agree he is better shooting the ball off screens, mainly because they don't run Paul off of screens much. Paul is better shooting off the dribble and catch-and-shoot. 



bballlife said:


> I think this is harder to substantiate, but I also think Williams is the better transition guard in terms of seeing the floor, pushing it up, and also attacking in early offense. Those are the big offensive advantages I see over Chris Paul.


I definitely don't agree with this. Paul is dominant in the open court. 

I'll give you that Williams is better off the ball offensively, and I think it's a toss-up defensively (like you say, they do different things). I still maintain that Paul has a clear advantage in most categories offensively though. He is a better scorer than Deron because of his mid-range and long-range shooting abilities and Paul is much more capable of getting by his defender time after time because of his quickness and ball handling ability. Passing ability is hard to guage because of the situational differences, so I'll call it a toss-up, although from observation, Chris Paul has a better feel for making the right play. Despite size, Paul is a better rebounder than Deron. He also takes care of the ball better than Deron. I've never seen a point guard protect the rock as well as Paul does, which is undoubtedly very important for a point guard. 

You could make an argument for Deron Williams defensively over Chris Paul long before you could offensively. I don't think it's all that close offensively. 

They're both good players, but if Deron Williams is Dwyane Wade then Chris Paul is LeBron. They do a lot of the same thing but I think Paul is just a little better at everything.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Sir Patchwork said:


> When Paul was hurt? How is that fair? Paul was having his best season until he went down.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Co signed.


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## Kaas (Apr 8, 2003)

Tooeasy said:


> just have to throw it out there, chris pauls pick and roll partner is david west, who in turn takes the ball and runs it like an isolation set, attempting to take his man off the dribble and pull up for the 15-18 footer, which negates pauls ability to score an assist on it a great deal of time. If this breaks down, west kicks the ball back out and attempts to repost, sometimes leads in the ball getting pushed around to the perimeter players and negates the assist ability as well. Chris' main assist beneficiary since his tenure has been chandler(no longer on the team) and peja, who actually spent a decent amount of time down on the block last year in an attempt to post up somewhat to gain position and eventually settle for a fallaway 10-15 footer. None of these things benefited chris, yet he still managed to spoon feed his players to the tune of 11 apg.


True, West has seriously regressed the past two seasons. He makes lots of boneheaded plays. But your point is true of all players, many of the game's best playmakers create good chances that their teammates fail to capitalize on. The season Kobe scored 35.7 PPG and was branded a ball hog by people who only looked at the numbers, he was creating a great deal of chances for his team, and should have gotten double digit assists if they could convert more than 1/3 of them (though he still shot plenty, since his teammates were bad and he knew sometimes it was a better chance to get points for the team if he took a contested tough shot, then spoonfeeding a teammate a wide open one). If Paul's teammates finished all his chances he'd be racking up 20 or 30 assists on a nightly basis. But that's part of the game. His assist total is great but he still gets those numbers mainly in P&R, slash and kick out, or transition situations. That's why it's a different thing completely to getting a comparable number of assists within a set play offense. 



GregOden said:


> I simply responded to your response to a post of mine you quoted, I didn't spin anything.


The entire post was meant for the lot of you. I felt it would be incredibly redundant to repeat myself over and over and over again. And it's obvious you read more than just my direct response to you with the "Deron's bigger" quip. You are proving my point about how much offense Paul's fans take to what they perceive as an attack directed towards him (which I'm not doing at all). I could have gone the same route as you in your first post and acted like a child who finds it amusing how people have such short term memories. Hahahahahah. Very amusing. But instead I responded to all of you maturely, so when you replied in a similar manner a second time, I felt there was no point discussing anything further with you.


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## Jesukki (Mar 3, 2009)

1. Kobe
2. Lebron
3. Howard
4. Wade
5. CP3
6. Durant
8. Pau Gasol
9. Tim Duncan
10. Deron Williams

And why Kobe is front of Lebron? Because i trust Jordan's opinion on this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOsamobHeMc


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## Game3525 (Aug 14, 2008)

Granted, Mike hasn't been the best judge of talent J/K.


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## Diable (Apr 26, 2005)

So where is Ammo on your list?


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## Basel (Mar 31, 2005)

Jesukki said:


> 1. Kobe
> 2. Lebron
> 3. Howard
> 4. Wade
> ...



Where'd #7 go?


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

As much as I love the guy, there's no way Dwight is a better basketball player then Wade.


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

VanillaPrice said:


> As much as I love the guy, *there's no way* Dwight is a better basketball player then Wade.



:laugh: 

Dwight's defense = Wade's offense. Not to mention Franchise C > Franchise SG (in terms of value). I can see the rationale in placing either player above the other, but FOH with the "There's no way" talk, that's just silly.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

bball2223 said:


> :laugh:
> 
> Dwight's defense = Wade's offense. Not to mention Franchise C > Franchise SG (in terms of value). I can see the rationale in placing either player above the other, but FOH with the "There's no way" talk, that's just silly.


Dwight has gotten shut down consistantly on the biggest stage of his career and has become a non factor offensively. His defense is always great so I have no problem putting him in the top five (check my list by the way) but Wade, Kobe, and LeBron are in a league of their own right now.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

^^^ Problem with that logic is that Dwayne Wade rarely shuts down anyone defensively. Plus while Wade can compensate with his passing, Howard is always a beast on the boards.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

VanillaPrice said:


> Dwight has gotten shut down consistantly on the biggest stage of his career and has become a non factor offensively. His defense is always great so I have no problem putting him in the top five (check my list by the way) but Wade, Kobe, and LeBron are in a league of their own right now.


Lol, um who has shut him down _consistently_ again??


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

f22egl said:


> ^^^ Problem with that logic is that Dwayne Wade rarely shuts down anyone defensively. Plus while Wade can compensate with his passing, Howard is always a beast on the boards.


Uh...Wade is one of the better defensive SG's in the league. He's made 3 All NBA Second Teams, and two of those probably should have been First Teams over Kobe.

On a related note, I still can't believe Larry Hughes Averaged 2.9 steals a game in 04-05 (again, bumping Wade to Second Team).


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## bball2223 (Jul 21, 2006)

VanillaPrice said:


> Dwight has gotten shut down consistantly on the biggest stage of his career and has become a non factor offensively. His defense is always great so I have no problem putting him in the top five (check my list by the way) but Wade, Kobe, and LeBron are in a league of their own right now.


A non-factor offensively? Can we get a mod to change his name to Hyperbole? Jesus H. Christ man. 

He averaged 21 a game against the Celtics who had the best defensive frontline in basketball. He still has work to do on that end of the court, but with no real passing threats available to help him get consistently good looks and get the ball in position to do something I would say he does pretty damn good.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Blue Magic said:


> Lol, um who has shut him down _consistently_ again??



He averaged 15 points a game in the finals last year. He averaged 10 points on 48% shooting this year. He didn't show up for the ECF until halfway through the series. And I'm not taking anything away from Dwight. He's one of my favorite players in the league (much moreso then Wade) and I think that he's a lock for a top five player. But he's not a better player then Wade at this point of their careers and there's no disputing that.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

I agree that he isn't better than Wade, but I cant agree that he gets shut down *consistently* on the big stage... Maybe every now and then he will struggle for a game or two...


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## Dornado (May 26, 2003)

VanillaPrice said:


> He averaged 15 points a game in the finals last year. He averaged 10 points on 48% shooting this year. He didn't show up for the ECF until halfway through the series. And I'm not taking anything away from Dwight. He's one of my favorite players in the league (much moreso then Wade) and I think that he's a lock for a top five player. But he's not a better player then Wade at this point of their careers and there's no disputing that.


The series where he scored 10 ppg was a 4 game sweep where they barely had him on the floor for more than 20 minutes a game...


and who was the guy scoring 30 in game 2 if Dwight Howard didn't show up until half way through the ECF?


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## Jakain (Sep 8, 2006)

Dornado said:


> The series where he scored 10 ppg was a 4 game sweep where they barely had him on the floor for more than 20 minutes a game...


Did you watch that series? Howard barely had himself on the floor because he had a historically awful foul rate in the first round. Historically awful, he fouled out of 2 of those games and had 22 personal fouls during that sweep. Magic won that series playing with 2/3 of Dwight Howard.



> and who was the guy scoring 30 in game 2 if Dwight Howard didn't show up until half way through the ECF?


The same Dwight Howard that got zero blocks and as many rebounds as Dirk averages and FWIW, Mark Jackson called those points "fool's gold"


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

GregOden said:


> Uh...Wade is one of the better defensive SG's in the league. He's made 3 All NBA Second Teams, and two of those probably should have been First Teams over Kobe.
> 
> On a related note, I still can't believe Larry Hughes Averaged 2.9 steals a game in 04-05 (again, bumping Wade to Second Team).


True but Howard is on a different level defensively- (maybe that's due to the fact that there aren't as many good centers) but also makes up for the defensive inefficiencies of his teammates like Rashard Lewis and Jameer Nelson. Just saying that the line of logic doesn't follow since I bet Wade gets burned defensively more than Howard doesn't contribute on the offensive IMO. I agree that Dwayne Wade is the better player although given that there are fewer quality big men, there is a case to be made for Howard. Too bad Howard will not get a hall of fame perimeter player to play alongside him.

In regards to Larry Hughes, it goes to show that getting steals doesn't make you a good defender. It means that you are gambling at times and are out of position. IMO, Larry Hughes was a better defender in Cleveland especially during that 06-07 Cavs final run.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

I'd take Wade over Dwight. Running a team, Lebron and Wade are the only two I'd take right now.

Even though Dwight's series against Charlotte was rough Larry Brown still said he was the MVP of the series. Not many guys can sit most of a game with foul trouble (which some of it was BS) and come in the fourth quarter and dominate defensively to take your team to a win. One 4th quarter stretch where I think he had 4-5 blocks in just a few minutes.

Everyone loves the scoring (hence some people somehow putting Durant above Dwight right now) but defense and rebounding are just as important to winning and Dwight dominates in both those areas like no one else in the league right now.


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## Luke (Dec 7, 2008)

Blue Magic said:


> I agree that he isn't better than Wade, but I cant agree that he gets shut down *consistently* on the big stage... Maybe every now and then he will struggle for a game or two...


That's all I'm saying. People are nitpicking my posts trying to brand me as a Dwight hater. I'm a huge fan of his and have him in my top five, he's just not better then Wade.

And maybe I overstated getting shut down consistantly, but the biggest stage of his career ('09 finals) he averaged 15 points a game against an injured (and terrible) Andrew Bynum and a slightly above average defender in Gasol.


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## Dre (Jun 20, 2003)

Dwight is a franchise player, it's just his game renders him the hardest sell of any of them.


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## Blue (Jun 21, 2007)

He played bad in the Finals, but that's largely because LA doubled and fouled him a ton more than most teams can... I dont recall Pau stopping him straight up... I recall Dwight having no room to do anything because every time he put the ball on the floor Odom, Ariza, Kobe or someone else was coming try and strip him or foul him... They just crowded him and fouled him if they got burned, but most teams dont have the proper depth, length or talent to pull it off as effectively as LA... Bynum did a pretty decent job on him straight up, but Pau relied alot more on the double team & hacking to bail him out(from what i recall, at least). 

That said I'm not acting like Dwight is some kind of offensive machine, but it does take a calculated scheme and a certain type of player to really stop him. LA had those players, and they did a good job not allowing him to even get shots off.


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## BlakeJesus (Feb 1, 2006)

Blue Magic said:


> He played bad in the Finals, but that's largely because LA doubled and fouled him a ton more than most teams can... I dont recall Pau stopping him straight up... I recall Dwight having no room to do anything because every time he put the ball on the floor Odom, Ariza, Kobe or someone else was coming try and strip him or foul him... They just crowded him and fouled him if they got burned, but most teams dont have the proper depth, length or talent to pull it off as effectively as LA... Bynum did a pretty decent job on him straight up, but Pau relied alot more on the double team & hacking to bail him out(from what i recall, at least).
> 
> That said I'm not acting like Dwight is some kind of offensive machine, but it does take a calculated scheme and a certain type of player to really stop him. LA had those players, and they did a good job not allowing him to even get shots off.


I would agree with that completely, that is exactly how I remembered it as well.


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## Jesukki (Mar 3, 2009)

Ups i really forgot number 7. well lets say Dirk. 
And i put Dwight front of Wade because i value defense high. His presence alone in the paint scares players.


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