# 10 best pure Centers last 20 years



## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Based on performance, not stats, at least 6'11", play C most of the time, play at least 3 years this period
Olajuwan
Shaq
D Rob
Yao
Ewing
Dougherty (former Cavs)
Rik Smits
B Cartright
Big Z
L Longaly (former Bulls)

How did you rank them?


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

You have Longley but no Mutombo?


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

1) Shaq
2) Hakeem
3) Robinson
4) Ewing
5) Mutombo
6) Smits
7) Yao
8) Dougherty
9) Cartwright
10) Big Z


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

The MAMBA said:


> 1) Shaq
> 2) Hakeem
> 3) Robinson
> 4) Ewing
> ...


Rik Smits over Yao? No way. Not even close. At least a case can be made for Deke.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

bronx43 said:


> Rik Smits over Yao? No way. Not even close. At least a case can be made for Deke.


Smits had an enduring career. And thats why he is higher than Yao. If you keeps up his current pace for the next few years, then I would rank him higher.


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## KDOS (Nov 29, 2005)

bronx43 said:


> Rik Smits over Yao? No way. Not even close. At least a case can be made for Deke.


I agree...I would rank Yao over Smits as well.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

I will be honest I take a 35 year old Robert Parish even over a prime Smits. 

Why would Longley be on anybody's top 10 C list? Divac was much better than Longley.

Hell, I take Benoit Benjamin, Rony Seikaly and Kevin Duckworth over Longley anyday. Even Shawn Bradley who has more triple doubles in his career than TMac.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

Zo? Kevin Willis?


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

I don't think Zo counts because 6'11 is a cutoff for this thread?



Hakeem said:


> Zo? Kevin Willis?


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

Gilgamesh said:


> I don't think Zo counts because 6'11 is a cutoff for this thread?


Well, Olajuwon's 6'10".


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

Yeah but he is listed as 7'0 by the NBA. Zo isn't.



Hakeem said:


> Well, Olajuwon's 6'10".


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## KennyK (Aug 5, 2005)

Zo is like 6' 10" but he should be in the top 10 easily. I think Divac and Kevin Willis or Sabonis should be here also.


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

1. Olajuwan
2. Shaq
3. D Rob
4. Ewing
5. Yao
6. Daugherty
7. Rik Smits
8. Big Z
9. Bill Cartwright
10. Luc Longley


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## Cloud786 (Mar 18, 2005)

1. Hakeem
2. Shaq
3. D Rob
4. Ewing
5. Zo
6. Mutumbo
7. Yao
8. Smits
9. Big Z
10. Kevin Willis


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## iverson101 (Mar 4, 2006)

Limiter at 6'11" is a joke. Mourning is a "pure" center no matter what he's listed at.


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## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

1. Shaq
2. Hakeem
3. Robinson
4. Ewing
5. Alonzo
6. Mutumbo
7. Daugherty
8. Willis
9. Yao 
10. Big Z


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## mauzer (Jun 7, 2005)

Sabonis ( before the injuries) was best of them.


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## DuMa (Dec 25, 2004)

umm Kareem? he was still playing in 1986.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

DuMa said:


> umm Kareem? he was still playing in 1986.


yeah but was at the end of his near 20 year career...Although still effective

here is my list:
1. Hakeem
2. Shaq
3. D Rob
4. Ewing
5. Zo
6. Mutumbo
7. Yao
8. Kevin Willis
9. Smits
10. Divac


ALthough im really having problems with Yao on that list, He still has to prove his place in center history. But i guess there just havent been any other legit centers other him really


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## neoxsupreme (Oct 31, 2005)

iverson101 said:


> Limiter at 6'11" is a joke. Mourning is a "pure" center no matter what he's listed at.


Well I don't think Ballscientist is arguing if Zo is 1 of the top 10 centers in the last 20 yrs or not. Obviously Zo was. He simply gave you a list of specific players 6'11 or taller to rank since he's the thread starter. Man people get offended for no reason at all.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

iverson101 said:


> Limiter at 6'11" is a joke. Mourning is a "pure" center no matter what he's listed at.


Yeah its to keep wannabe centers away such as Amare, Duncan, Gasol, Wallace out...


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## Petey (Aug 23, 2002)

I'm shocked no one has added Kobe Bryant or Vince Carter to their lists. 

-Petey


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## CbobbyB (Feb 16, 2006)

Carbo04 said:


> 1. *Shaq*
> 2. *Hakeem*
> 3. Robinson
> 4. Ewing
> ...


Shaq over Hakeem. . . LOL!!


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## white360 (Apr 24, 2004)

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Mark Eaton
Robert PArish
Moses Malone


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

CbobbyB said:


> Shaq over Hakeem. . . LOL!!


shouldn't really be too funny.


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## CbobbyB (Feb 16, 2006)

kflo said:


> shouldn't really be too funny.


hmm..O K . . .


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

OneBadLT123 said:


> here is my list:
> 1. Hakeem
> 2. Shaq
> 3. D Rob
> ...


I pretty much agree with that. Though I'd put Divac above Smits. And if Yao can put up 23/11 next season with his defense staying the same, I'd put him above Mutombo.


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## cima (Nov 6, 2003)

i'd put sabonis on there. just because he didn't play in the NBA all those years doesn't mean he wasn't one of the best because he clearly was.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Any list of great centers of the last 20 years has to include Sabonis. Not just because he was a Blazer, but because he was widely regarded as the best player in the world before his injuries. If he had come over to the NBA before his injuries Rick Adelman and NOT Phil Jackson would be an over rated coach with multiple rings. The pure and unadulterated dominace that Sabonis had over David robinson in the 1984 Olympics was sickening. The Blazers drafted him in 1986 and it wasn't for a few years after that until he was injured. Please stop embarassing yourselves by putting Luc Longley, Kevin Willis and others on any great centers list before Sabas


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## o.iatlhawksfan (Mar 3, 2006)

My top 5 are
hakeem
robinson
abdul jabbar
shaq 
wilt


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

mediocre man said:


> The pure and unadulterated dominace that Sabonis had over David robinson in the 1984 Olympics was sickening.


If it was indeed 1984, that was six years before Robinson entered the league.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Hakeem said:


> If it was indeed 1984, that was six years before Robinson entered the league.


I'm sorry a typo occured. It was 1988 that he made Robinson his *****


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## DemonaL (Aug 24, 2005)

why would you put a height req on a top 10 best pure centers, they were all f'ing tall duh!


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## Carbo04 (Apr 15, 2005)

CbobbyB said:


> Shaq over Hakeem. . . LOL!!


What's funny, Mr. Homer? The truth? Shaq has 3 titles to Hakeem's 2, and was more dominant in his prime. Hakeem had the shake and everything which is good. All Shaq had to do was get the ball and it was an automatic dunk on 2-3 people at a time. Hakeem was dominant to a point, but Shaq has been so dominant that he's scared an entire generation away from playing center. Every big now plays PF to avoid Shaq.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

mediocre man said:


> I'm sorry a typo occured. It was 1988 that he made Robinson his *****


I haven't seen the games, though I have heard that Sabonis dominated Robinson. But from the only scores I can find, it says that when they met in '86, Robinson scored 20 and Sabonis 16; in '88, Robinson had 19 and Sabonis 13. Can't find any fg%, but it doesn't look look much like domination to me. Also, Robinson only entered the NBA in 1990.



Carbo04 said:


> What's funny, Mr. Homer? The truth? Shaq has 3 titles to Hakeem's 2, and was more dominant in his prime. Hakeem had the shake and everything which is good. All Shaq had to do was get the ball and it was an automatic dunk on 2-3 people at a time. Hakeem was dominant to a point, but Shaq has been so dominant that he's scared an entire generation away from playing center. Every big now plays PF to avoid Shaq.


The argument in Hakeem's favor is the huge difference in defensive prowess between them. And I don't buy the "Shaq scared people away from playing center" theory. You're telling me professional athletes would be so scared to play Shaq 2-4 times a season that they would change positions in their 20's? What about in the mid-'90s, when you had Shaq _and_ three other HoF centers? Shaq was putting up the same numbers back then.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

the sabonis dominated robinson is a myth.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Since 1986?
1) Shaq (Most dominant offensive force outside of Jordan I've seen play and has the stats to back up my opinion - the highest PERs of any center except on3 exceptional D. Rob year. In addition his stats tended to go UP in the playoffs)
2) Hakeem
3) D. Robinson
4) P Ewing
5) A. Mourning
6) Mutombo
7) Daugherty
8) Smits
edit 9a) Divac
9) Yao
10) Big Z

Edit: forgot about Divac as his career has completed and Yao's has just started I'd move him ahead into 9th place. Yao should pass him quickly though

Further edit: Don't really know where to put Sabonis: he should be in here someplace just can't figure out where


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## Nikos (Jun 5, 2002)

<table x:str="" style="border-collapse: collapse; width: 36pt;" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="48"> <col style="width: 36pt;" width="48"> <tbody><tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt; width: 36pt;" height="17" width="48">1.Hakeem</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">2.Shaq</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">3.Drob</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" x:str="Ewing " height="17">4.Ewing </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">5.Alonzo</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">6.Mutumbo</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" x:str="Yao " height="17">7.Yao </td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">8.Daughtery</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">9.Divac</td> </tr> <tr style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17"> <td style="height: 12.75pt;" height="17">10.Smits

Top 3 all are very close and about the same
</td> </tr></tbody> </table>


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Robert Parish is definetely in the top 10; over Smits anyways.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

> Listed at 7'0" (2.13 m) but appearing closer to 6'10" (2.08 m)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakeem_Olajuwon


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## Premier (Oct 30, 2003)

Carbo04 said:


> What's funny, Mr. Homer? The truth? Shaq has 3 titles to Hakeem's 2, and was more dominant in his prime. Hakeem had the shake and everything which is good. All Shaq had to do was get the ball and it was an automatic dunk on 2-3 people at a time. Hakeem was dominant to a point, but Shaq has been so dominant that he's scared an entire generation away from playing center. Every big now plays PF to avoid Shaq.


Hakeem is arguably the best interior defender of all time. Shaq is a great defender, but this is what seperates him from Olajuwon, in my opinion.


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## Brandon Real (Mar 14, 2006)

Carbo04 said:


> What's funny, Mr. Homer? The truth? Shaq has 3 titles to Hakeem's 2, and was more dominant in his prime. Hakeem had the shake and everything which is good. All Shaq had to do was get the ball and it was an automatic dunk on 2-3 people at a time. Hakeem was dominant to a point, but Shaq has been so dominant that he's scared an entire generation away from playing center. Every big now plays PF to avoid Shaq.



I agree. Shaq won three straight championships, a league MVP, three Finals MVP's, and lead a legendary championship team that broke records. Now, It can still be argued between Hakeem and Shaq, but clearly Shaq is as worthy of the #1 spot. Not a huge gap by any standards.


1. Shaq
2. Hakeem

3. Robinson
4. Ewing
5. Mourning
6. Sabonis
7. Mutumbo
8. Divac
9. Smits
10. Willis


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## mauzer (Jun 7, 2005)

mediocre man said:


> Any list of great centers of the last 20 years has to include Sabonis. Not just because he was a Blazer, but because he was widely regarded as the best player in the world before his injuries. If he had come over to the NBA before his injuries Rick Adelman and NOT Phil Jackson would be an over rated coach with multiple rings. The pure and unadulterated dominace that Sabonis had over David robinson in the 1984 Olympics was sickening. The Blazers drafted him in 1986 and it wasn't for a few years after that until he was injured. Please stop embarassing yourselves by putting Luc Longley, Kevin Willis and others on any great centers list before Sabas



They never saw Sabas play healthy, so don't expect to see him in their list.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

In order:

Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing
Arvydas Sabonis
Alonzo Mourning
Yao Ming
Brad Daugherty
Dikembe Mutombo
Kevin Willis


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## storminnorman20 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wilt Chamberlain on that list anywhere?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

storminnorman20 said:


> Wilt Chamberlain on that list anywhere?


He wasn't very good from 1986 on.


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## Ballscientist (Nov 11, 2002)

Minstrel said:


> In order:
> 
> Hakeem Olajuwon
> Shaquille O'Neal
> ...


This one is really the best!


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

Ballscientist said:


> This one is really the best!


The list is fine outside of Sabonis. Someone explain why he is better than Yao or Mutombo. Heck, you can barely make a case for him being better than Kevin Willis.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

bronx43 said:


> The list is fine outside of Sabonis. Someone explain why he is better than Yao or Mutombo.


Due to his non-NBA performance. As an international player, many NBA people considered him one of the greatest they ever saw. Bill Walton said that Sabonis at 20 was the best he'd seen outside of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.


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## bronx43 (Dec 9, 2005)

Minstrel said:


> Due to his non-NBA performance. As an international player, many NBA people considered him one of the greatest they ever saw. Bill Walton said that Sabonis at 20 was the best he'd seen outside of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.


That's hardly reason enough to put him in a top ten centers list, eh? I mean, I loved the guy when he was playing with the contending Portland Trailblazers team, but I can't see him as a top ten center material.


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## f22egl (Jun 3, 2004)

Parish by the way...

14 ppg, 9 rpg, over 2000 blocks. One of the 50 best players of all time. Elected to the basketball hall of fame in 2003. 4 NBA championships. 

His numbers may not seem that impressive overall but take into account he was in the league for 21 season and his numbers lowered towards the end of his career when he was 43!

I would put him below Ewing and Robinson personally and above Mourning and Yao.


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## JNice (Jul 13, 2002)

bronx43 said:


> That's hardly reason enough to put him in a top ten centers list, eh? I mean, I loved the guy when he was playing with the contending Portland Trailblazers team, but I can't see him as a top ten center material.



Depends if you are only considering what was done in the NBA (I didn't read the rest of the thread btw). I recall hearing numerous times very respectable NBA people saying Sabonis in his younger days was one of the best big men to ever touch a basketball. Seeing as though he still made a significant impact on the court in the NBA when he was old, slow, overweight and couldn't move all that well ... it isn't hard to imagine how good he was when he was younger.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

bronx43 said:


> That's hardly reason enough to put him in a top ten centers list, eh?


Why? If he's one of the best centers ever, he's one of the best centers ever, whether he played most of that time in the NBA. It's certainly arguable whether he _was_ one of the best, since it wasn't against NBA competition, but I trust what experts who saw him at the time say plus I've seen footage of his play then and he was remarkably gifted and skilled.


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## 1 Penny (Jul 11, 2003)

Good list for everyone. The consensus is that Hakeem, Shaq and David Robinson are the best centers for the last 20 years... and I agree whole heartedly.


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## abwowang (Mar 7, 2006)

i think hakeen, shaq, admiral, yao, ewing, and zo should be a given in this little vote.. they are truly the core centers of the past 20 yrs


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## naibsel (Dec 21, 2005)

wheres hoffa?


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## matt! (Feb 21, 2005)

naibsel said:


> wheres hoffa?


Putting buffets in the greater Toronto area out of business.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

mauzer said:


> They never saw Sabas play healthy, so don't expect to see him in their list.


if he thought sabonis dominance over robinson in the olympics was sickening, he obviously didn't see him play either.


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## notting_hill (Dec 18, 2005)

Sabonis
Shaq
Kareem
zo
Dikembe 
Hakeem 
Ewing 
Robinson 
Ben Wallace
Kevin Wills


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

- Shaq;
- Hakeem;
- David Robinson;
- Pat Ewing;
- Alonzo;
- Mutombo;
- Moses Malone;
- Daugherty;
- Yao Ming;
- Rik Smits/Rony Seikaly

... And no, no Sabonis. I don't care if there's a center in Angola averaging 50-20 in a local league. Unless you play in the NBA, you can't be compared.


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## bbasok (Oct 30, 2005)

KOBEDUNKEDONSHAQ said:


> You have Longley but no Mutombo?



yeah.Mutombo should be in the top-5


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

For you people putting Rik Smits or Rony Seikaly (!) above Kevin Willis -- what's your reasoning? Can't say I remember seeing Willis or Seikaly play much, but surely numbers like 18/16 have to put Willis ahead?

I also don't get Smits and Daugherty over Yao (unless you're looking at career value).


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## Hoopla (Jun 1, 2004)

Hakeem said:


> I also don't get Smits and Daugherty over Yao (unless you're looking at career value).


I agree about Smits - he seems to be getting overrated in this thread. He was a nice offensive player, but not a defensive presence (shocking considering his height) and an average rebounder at best. And he was often plagued by foul trouble.

Anyway, my rankings based on primes:

1. Shaq
2. Olajuwon
3. Robinson
4. Ewing
5. Mourning
6. Yao
7. Mutombo
8. Daugherty
9. Sabonis
10. Willis

If physical ailments hadn't affected Mourning, I would have a tough time deciding between him and Ewing.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Hakeem said:


> For you people putting Rik Smits or Rony Seikaly (!) above Kevin Willis -- what's your reasoning? Can't say I remember seeing Willis or Seikaly play much, but surely numbers like 18/16 have to put Willis ahead?


Willis was a PF.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Hakeem said:


> For you people putting Rik Smits or Rony Seikaly (!) above Kevin Willis -- what's your reasoning? Can't say I remember seeing Willis or Seikaly play much, but surely numbers like 18/16 have to put Willis ahead?
> 
> I also don't get Smits and Daugherty over Yao (unless you're looking at career value).


 As PC pointed out Willis was a PF and not a true center.

With regards to Yao, it's a last 20 year debate: he's had a good 3 years but not one that so has been so particularly dominant (unless half a season counts a lot when comparing 20 years) that separates from Smits who produced numbers just slightly below what Yao has produced. The big difference is that in favor of Smits right is that at this particular point is that Smits produced that over a 13 year career. Smits is had a very good career that was overshadowed a bit because of injuries and playing in the EC during the Jordan years.


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## iverson101 (Mar 4, 2006)

Pioneer10 said:


> As PC pointed out Willis was a PF and not a true center.
> 
> With regards to Yao, it's a last 20 year debate: he's had a good 3 years but not one that so has been so particularly dominant (unless half a season counts a lot when comparing 20 years) that separates from Smits who produced numbers just slightly below what Yao has produced. The big difference is that in favor of Smits right is that at this particular point is that Smits produced that over a 13 year career. Smits is had a very good career that was overshadowed a bit because of injuries and playing in the EC during the Jordan years.


Who do you take- Yao right this second or Smits whichever year you want him. That's what it comes down to. Unless the question is "who had the best career", which it isn't.


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## OneBadLT123 (Oct 4, 2005)

PauloCatarino said:


> Willis was a PF.


No he was a center. But he was able to play the forward position as well, therefore he was listed as FC. Most of his career was at the 5 spot


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

It's tough to make a list with the cutoff being 1986, you can only count the years thereafter? Because Laimbeer and Parish put in some good years up until the 1990s, and both pulled in a championship or two... And what's up with the disrespect for Divac? I am not a big fan of his, but he deserves to be on the list over the likes of Daughtery and Rik Smits, IMO. Also, Sabonis makes it on my list  

Hi kflo! :waves:

1. Shaquille O'Neal
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. David Robinson
4. Patrick Ewing
5. Dikembe Mutombo
6. Alonzo Mourning
7. Vlade Divac
8. Arvydas Sabonis (just NBA career)
9. Yao Ming
10. Zydrunas Ilgauskas 

Big Z is far down this list because of his injuries and inability to do much in the postseason thus far (in relation to how long he has been in the league). Daughtery was way too-often injured for me, while Smits wasn't really much of an impactful player IMO. Smits scored points, but was a subpar rebounder and shot-blocker.. wasn't a great defender or passer, and was pretty soft. I don't hate the guy, I just don't think he brought enough to the table. Though I will say, it was between Smits and Ilgauskas for the final spot.



PauloCatarino said:


> ... And no, no Sabonis. I don't care if there's a center in Angola averaging 50-20 in a local league. Unless you play in the NBA, you can't be compared.


Yet, you included Rony Seikaly? 

Rony Seikaly? Seriously? 

And Mose Malone? Whose career, from 1986 on, spanned about 2-3 good years, one average one and an average of 25 games for his final 3-4 years, where he put up about 5 pts and 4 rebounds?? And Sabonis did play in the NBA, he may not have been dominant statistically on paper, but he is second to none as far as passing from the pivot, was a good shooter from the outside and ft line (a rarity) all the while playing limited minutes. Sabonis was still putting up respectable numbers while playing for a perennially competitive Trailblazer team (and lets not forget him almost leading the Blazers over the Jazz in the first round of the playoffs during his rookie year).

Stuart


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

OneBadLT123 said:


> No he was a center. But he was able to play the forward position as well, therefore he was listed as FC. Most of his career was at the 5 spot


most of his prime, he started alongside dominque at the 4.


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## The MAMBA (Jan 6, 2006)

Forgot about Mourning and Parish. Based off their best years, I have to re-edit my list.
1) Shaq
2) Hakeem
3) Mr. Robinson
4) Ewing
5) Mourning
6) Mutombo
7) Parish
8) Dougherty
9) Smits
10) Cartwright


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

hey stuart - was expecting you. 

daugherty's career was cut short way early, but he did have 3 20/10 seasons with 70+ games played ('91-'93), plus another 3 quality full seasons ('87-'89). i think you could make a case for him in at 7. certainly warrants it over yao (as of now) and big z, his peak was easily better than vlade.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

The MAMBA said:


> Forgot about Mourning and Parish. Based off their best years, I have to re-edit my list.
> 1) Shaq
> 2) Hakeem
> 3) Mr. Robinson
> ...


you gotta get cartwrigth outta there.


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## fleet40 (Jan 14, 2004)

Let me just step in for one moment and say this. Smits? Divac? Willis? ummmmmmmmm.
Ok first, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so you want to put Longley on that list go ahead.
But let me clarify something for you. Bill Laimbeer holds a higher career efficiency rating then Smits, Divac, and Willis. Surprised??? Do some research my friends.

Parish 19.08 efficiency rating for career, Laimbeer 19.06... They are equals. Yes Parish played forever, and dropped ability in age, well laimbeer had the same, just retired sooner, while parish remained a parasite collecting checks riding the pine. Point is these guys were great players, great centers for a decade or more. 

Sabonis????!!!! I love you guys, but THE MAN PLAYED BALL IN EUROPE!! His NBA career is what I see, is all I care about. 16.21 efficiency rating in the states boys. get that man off that list! Divac was a more valuable NBA player for his career at 17.74 efficiency. Smits?? Nice player, 15.50 efficiency.
But not as valuable as Laimbeer, Parish, heck Mutombo, was a better efficient player at 19.81

If you cant break the 19.0 barrier you don't belong on these damn lists, your personal list can have Jack Haley, Fenis Dembo, Allen Ogg, or however your heart loves. But get freaking real you guys. Holly Crap!!


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

fleet40 said:


> Let me just step in for one moment and say this. Smits? Divac? Willis? ummmmmmmmm.
> Ok first, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so you want to put Longley on that list go ahead.
> But let me clarify something for you. Bill Laimbeer holds a higher career efficiency rating then Smits, Divac, and Willis. Surprised??? Do some research my friends.
> 
> ...


Hey I love Laimbeer as much as small boy could growing up in the 1980s, but were talking 1986 and beyond. It's pretty obvious you like PER, so check this stat out (look at third place) I know it doesn't exactly give Sabonis a free ticket to the top-10 list but it illustrates it in a language you are arguing with.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/82games/03/22/paul/index.html (coincidentally this just came out a couple days ago.)

And Fennis Dembo was a small forward/SG. 

Stuart


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

kflo said:


> you gotta get cartwrigth outta there.


Yeah, not sure what to make about all the Cartwright-loving out there.

Chicago Bulls fans?

Stuart


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

s a b a s 11 said:


> Yet, you included Rony Seikaly?
> 
> Rony Seikaly? Seriously?


Yup. Better scorer and rebounder than Sabas.



> And Mose Malone? Whose career, from 1986 on, spanned about 2-3 good years, one average one and an average of 25 games for his final 3-4 years, where he put up about 5 pts and 4 rebounds??


Hmmm... Are you comparing Moses' 6 years over 8rpg (4 times 10 or +), and 5 years being a good scorer (3 years over 20ppg) to Sabas' 7 years in the league when the best he did was 16-10 (and not another close year)? 



> And Sabonis did play in the NBA, he may not have been dominant statistically on paper, but he is second to none as far as passing from the pivot


If i did my search correctly, Sabas stands #9 in the list of centers post-1986 with at least 400 games played (Sabas' 470) in apg. With an astounding 2.1, in fact. Worse than, say, Oliver Miller.

Meh.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

fleet40 said:


> Let me just step in for one moment and say this. Smits? Divac? Willis? ummmmmmmmm.
> Ok first, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so you want to put Longley on that list go ahead.
> But let me clarify something for you. Bill Laimbeer holds a higher career efficiency rating then Smits, Divac, and Willis. Surprised??? Do some research my friends.
> 
> ...


 Efficiency is a poor measure of offensive impact.

Per is much better and Parish has much higher PER's then Laimber. Parish had 6 years with a PER higher then 20 (including one after 1986). Laimbeer never had one.

Sabonis considering his injuries, his age, and his NBA experience was ridiculously good in the NBA. Every year he played in the league he had a PER highers then 20 except for one year when it was 18.4. Really little doubt that he would have fit very favorably in the center dominant 90's with Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, and the like. Unforutantley becuase his prime years were spent outside the NBA difficult to know where to put him on the list of top 10. IMHO he clearly belongs as his PER numbers even in the twilight of his career are better then Parish, Laimbeer, Smits, Daugherty, and Divac. A shame he didn't spend his entire career over here


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

iverson101 said:


> Who do you take- Yao right this second or Smits whichever year you want him. That's what it comes down to. Unless the question is "who had the best career", which it isn't.


 I would take the Vince Carter of the second half of last year over Kobe, Lebron, and Wade right now. Does that mean I rank him above them in the best perimeters players over the last 5 years: no.


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## AleksandarN (Jul 9, 2002)

Ballscientist said:


> Based on performance, not stats, at least 6'11", play C most of the time, play at least 3 years this period
> Olajuwan
> Shaq
> D Rob
> ...



Where is Vlade?


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> Yup. Better scorer and rebounder than Sabas.


No way. For who? The then-expansion Miami Heat? And did those 17pts and 9 rebounds do anything in the playoffs?



PauloCatarino said:


> Hmmm... Are you comparing Moses' 6 years over 8rpg (4 times 10 or +), and 5 years being a good scorer (3 years over 20ppg) to Sabas' 7 years in the league when the best he did was 16-10 (and not another close year)?


Save for one year with the Hawks, Moses played for non-contenders, sat the bench or both. Remember we're talking strictly 1986 +



PauloCatarino said:


> If i did my search correctly, Sabas stands #9 in the list of centers post-1986 with at least 400 games played (Sabas' 470) in apg. With an astounding 2.1, in fact. Worse than, say, Oliver Miller.


Funny, that you should use that argument because if you are talking better passing, regardless of stats, you would choose Oliver Miller over Sabonis? Be honest. C'mon, you know stats don't always reflect a good passer, see Stephon Marbury or Steve Francis. Just because "Starbury" averages about the same amount of assists as Steve Nash or Jason Kidd, that doesn't equate to natural ability or getting the ball to the right player at the right time.

Stuart


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## mauzer (Jun 7, 2005)

the game sabas showed in NBA after injuries is not compearable to leve he was playing healthy. And if you are making list of centers that played only in US-Sabas clearly is out of list, and if outside US-he is TOP 3 center. The guy camed to US without ability to juml higher than 5 inches and was running like snale.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

s a b a s 11 said:


> No way. For who? The then-expansion Miami Heat? And did those 17pts and 9 rebounds do anything in the playoffs?


I just wonder what a 30+ years old Sabonis would do to an expansion NBA team...

Look, man, i'm not hating on Sabonis. I loved him in Europe. I was a big fan of Real Madrid back in the day. And yes, before injuries, he was a heck of a player. Still, because he never, at his prime, had to face an 82 game season, and never had to face the best players in the world, pre-NBA Sabonis has no clout with me. If it had, i would be saying Oscar Shmidt was one of the greatest ballers ever.



> Save for one year with the Hawks, Moses played for non-contenders, sat the bench or both. Remember we're talking strictly 1986 +


If i read correctly, post 1986 Moses had at least 3 seasons scoring over 20ppg and rebounding over 10rpg. That will make him BETTER than Sabonis in that period of time.



> Funny, that you should use that argument because if you are talking better passing, regardless of stats, you would choose Oliver Miller over Sabonis? Be honest. C'mon, you know stats don't always reflect a good passer, see Stephon Marbury or Steve Francis. Just because "Starbury" averages about the same amount of assists as Steve Nash or Jason Kidd, that doesn't equate to natural ability or getting the ball to the right player at the right time.


Hah. I mentioned Oliver "pig" Miller because his stats aproached Sabas' more (including games played and mpg). I KNOW Sabas could pass (I've always felt that his spoon-pass from the pivot was great) in an effective way. I'm just defending my list. And in my list Rony and Smits are over Sabonis. Heck, even Divac is over Sabonis...

Don't get me wrong, dude, i'm one who have always dreamed of the chance great european players would dominate the NBA... Wether it was Drazen, Fernando Martin, Epi, Gallis, Meneghin... and Sabas. but it didn't work out too well...


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

just mention that seikaly (as well as kevin willis) were 2 of the bigger black holes in the post.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

kflo said:


> just mention that seikaly (as well as kevin willis) were 2 of the bigger black holes in the post.


Hmmm... Interesting...

So, Seikaly was a "black hole", heh? I agree, but his job was to score in the post, not pass it around.

What's Ben Wallace excuse? (check out both players assist stas, if you may)


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> What's Ben Wallace excuse? (check out both players assist stas, if you may)


His excuse is that he's a weak offensive player.


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## fleet40 (Jan 14, 2004)

Pioneer10 said:


> Efficiency is a poor measure of offensive impact.
> 
> Per is much better and Parish has much higher PER's then Laimber. Parish had 6 years with a PER higher then 20 (including one after 1986). Laimbeer never had one.
> 
> Sabonis considering his injuries, his age, and his NBA experience was ridiculously good in the NBA. Every year he played in the league he had a PER highers then 20 except for one year when it was 18.4. Really little doubt that he would have fit very favorably in the center dominant 90's with Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Hakeem, and the like. Unforutantley becuase his prime years were spent outside the NBA difficult to know where to put him on the list of top 10. IMHO he clearly belongs as his PER numbers even in the twilight of his career are better then Parish, Laimbeer, Smits, Daugherty, and Divac. A shame he didn't spend his entire career over here


eeeeeeeehhhhhh.....

No. Points per game is CLEARLY not the most important aspect to a great center. Ben Wallace ring any bells to you buddy? His offense is GARBAGE but the man impacts the game like few can. Laimbeer IMPACTED the game, not just by scoring, but by many things. For Laimbeer he was one of the great rebounders, Divac was a great passing center, you cannot take into account only points per game. And parish was one of the great centers, I never stated otherwise. What I am trying to point out is that Laimbeer gets shafted in these posts mainly because he was an @ss hole, and his offensive game was hitting spot shots, but his value nevertheless was very important by looking at his efficiency rating which takes into account more than simply points per game!!!!!


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

How could you not have seen Willis much? I thought your fav team was the Rockets. :biggrin: 

Maybe you mean during his prime? Willis was a rebounding machine and was exceptional that one season when he averaged over 15 rpg. Willis also had a very effective hook shot and was incredibly strong. But the guy actually played PF early in his career including his strongest rebounding years.

I wouldn't put Seikaly ahead of Willis but Seikaly had one of the most memorable rebounding games ever. I think he grabbed 34 or 35 rebounds but the thing is he *outrebounded* the entire opposing team. I don't even think Rodman has ever done before. Seikaly in today's NBA would be a top 3 center. I take him over Z actually.



Hakeem said:


> For you people putting Rik Smits or Rony Seikaly (!) above Kevin Willis -- what's your reasoning? Can't say I remember seeing Willis or Seikaly play much, but surely numbers like 18/16 have to put Willis ahead?
> 
> I also don't get Smits and Daugherty over Yao (unless you're looking at career value).


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

Except we all know Hakeem *destroyed* The Admiral when they met in 95'.



Nikos said:


> Top 3 all are very close and about the same


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

fleet40 said:


> eeeeeeeehhhhhh.....
> 
> No. Points per game is CLEARLY not the most important aspect to a great center. Ben Wallace ring any bells to you buddy? His offense is GARBAGE but the man impacts the game like few can. Laimbeer IMPACTED the game, not just by scoring, but by many things. For Laimbeer he was one of the great rebounders, Divac was a great passing center, you cannot take into account only points per game. And parish was one of the great centers, I never stated otherwise. What I am trying to point out is that Laimbeer gets shafted in these posts mainly because he was an @ss hole, and his offensive game was hitting spot shots, but his value nevertheless was very important by looking at his efficiency rating which takes into account more than simply points per game!!!!!


PER is not points per game, it's player efficiency rating.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

For those of you that refuse to take Sabas because of his Euro league stats I think you are being extremely short sighted. Sabonis was known throughout the world as the greatest PLAYER.....now notice I didn't say center, I said PLAYER before his injuries. To say he wasn't one of the greatest centers in the last 20 years is naive and a little ignorant. The NBA is clearly the best league in the world, but European basketball isn't the YMCA for crying out loud. Sabonis in the NBA was was an above average center. Sabonis pre NBA was better than any center currently playing.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

who is the best player sabonis played against pre-injury?

competition overseas in the mid 80s wasn't close to what it is today, and it certainly wasn't close to the nba.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

kflo said:


> who is the best player sabonis played against pre-injury?
> 
> competition overseas in the mid 80s wasn't close to what it is today, and it certainly wasn't close to the nba.



Most every center. Don't forget there are International competitions. Don't for a second think I'm saying game in and game out he played against the best because he didn't, but what me and others are saying he that he was described by most as the best player in the world before he was injured. You should try and find some footage of him. I remember seeing somewhere he taking off from the free throw line and dunking, going between his legs on a no look pass and such. The guy was truly awsome. players like he and Petrovic were far ahead of their time in Europe and their skills transformed well in the NBA


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

mediocre man said:


> Most every center. Don't forget there are International competitions. Don't for a second think I'm saying game in and game out he played against the best because he didn't, but what me and others are saying he that he was described by most as the best player in the world before he was injured. You should try and find some footage of him. I remember seeing somewhere he taking off from the free throw line and dunking, going between his legs on a no look pass and such. The guy was truly awsome. players like he and Petrovic were far ahead of their time in Europe and their skills transformed well in the NBA


no, he wasn't thought by most to be the best player in the world. maybe overseas he was, but not here. and there was no measuring stick.

he didn't play any top centers in his prime. david robinson in '86 is probably the closest, and he wasn't even a college all-american yet. it's close to saying lebron was the best player in the world while a senior in high school. sabonis was an incredible talent, but an untested talent.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

ok - maybe calling a college player the best player in the world.


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## mysterio (May 20, 2003)

1. Olajuwon
2. Shaq
3. Robinson
4. Ewing
5. Yao
6. Mourning
7. Mutombo
8. Willis
9. Smits
10. Ilgauskas

It's a close call for #1. While Shaq has 3 rings, Hakeem is the only player in history to win the DPOY (over the likes of Robinson and Rodman), Season MVP, and Finals MVP in the same season (making him arguably the best peak player of all-time), one of the rare few who has ever scored a quadruple double, and #1 all-time in blocks, and #6 all-time in steals (with the next best center #39 in all-time steals).


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Although the policital climate in the Soviet Union did not allow Arvydas play in the NBA, he did travel to the states to rehab his ankle injuries with the Blazers' training staff. Inbetween rehab stints, "Sabas" would find himself out on the court playing pickup games with Clyde Drexler, Terry Porter and company. Observers strongly contend even to this day, that had Arvydas played for the blazers in the early 1990's, they would have won at least a couple of NBA chamionships.

Ex players and current players alike contend that Sabonis, fairly unknown in the states, would have been recognized as one of the top centers- ever- to play the game of basketball, had he come to America in his prime. Scottie Pippen was quoted as saying that Arvydas was "the best European basketball player to ever play the game". Ex-Spur Sean Elliot routinely claimed that Arvydas "should be in the conversation as one of the greatest centers ever". Hall of Famer Bill Walton describes "Sabas" as "the greatest passing center of all time". And Dino Radja, former celtics player, said that Sabonis would have been an all-star "ten times over" had he played his healthy years in the states. Columnist for the Oregonian, Brian Meehan, has followed Sabonis' career over the past couple of decades. He recalled the 1988 olympics, when Sabonis' Soviet team beat a United states team with the likes of David Robinson. Meehan recalls one play when a healthy and spry sabonis reacts to a teammate's missed shot: Sabonis slashed towards the rim, jumped over david robinson, and slammed the ball. Meehan is of the opinion that it was the play of Arvydas in the 88' olympics that influenced team USA to use professional players in the olympics, thus the "Dream Teams" of 1992 and 1996. Meehan ranks Sabonis as the 6th best all-time center behind, in no particular order, Hakeem Olajuwon, Bill Russell, WIlt Chamberlain, Shaquille O'neal, and Kareem Abdul Jabaar.


I'll find more on him


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Arvydas Sabonis video
Video Page

From Brendan McGovern,
Your Guide to Basketball.
FREE Newsletter. Sign Up Now!
Arvydas Sabonis video
Guide Rating - 

Once upon a time, Arvydas Sabonis was an agile and athletic 7-foot monster who dominated the Euro/Asian basketball world. The version we see now is almost a tragedy. These videos give a fuzzy glimpse back at Sabonis in his youth -- showing the skills that could have made him one of the NBA's greatest players ever had he played in the States for the duration of his career.

Review:
It's scary to see how good Sabonis was in his youth. Had he entered the league back in 1986, we would be looking at Sabonis as a revolutionary player ... a 7-footer who could do everything a six-foot guard could. These videos take a while to load and they're grainy at best -- but they're worth it!

Available Formats:
avi


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## B-Scott (Jan 17, 2006)

1986 Kareem abdul jabbar averaged 23 points a game. 1987 he was still averaging 17 points a game. 88 is when he tailed off


1. akeem
2 shaq
3 Kareem
4 robinson
5.Ewing
6 Mourning
7 Rick smits
8 Brad daugherty
9 Vlade divac
10 ilguskas


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## B-Scott (Jan 17, 2006)

1986 Kareem put up over 40 points TWICE against the Houston rockets in the 1986 regular season. He dominated Akeem and Ralph sampson that yr. Averaged 23 for the season.

In the playoffs the rockets went to a swarming defense,doubling and triple teaming kareem.

1988 is when Kareem slipped a lot. He was still dominant in 1986. Id take 86 Kareem over Ewing and Mourning. Much better in half-court sets.


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## fleet40 (Jan 14, 2004)

kflo said:


> PER is not points per game, it's player efficiency rating.


Which is what I gave in my first post, he said that scoring is more important. I look at effeciency ratings.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

fleet40 said:


> Which is what I gave in my first post, he said that scoring is more important. I look at effeciency ratings.


No, he didn't. He said PER is more useful than Efficiency. They are both "efficiency" measures, but PER is much more sophisticated, as it accounts for factors like pace, rebounds available, etc.


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

mediocre man said:


> For those of you that refuse to take Sabas because of his Euro league stats I think you are being extremely short sighted. Sabonis was known throughout the world as the greatest PLAYER.....now notice I didn't say center, I said PLAYER before his injuries. To say he wasn't one of the greatest centers in the last 20 years is naive and a little ignorant. The NBA is clearly the best league in the world, but European basketball isn't the YMCA for crying out loud. Sabonis in the NBA was was an above average center. Sabonis pre NBA was better than any center currently playing.


So... How do you rank Oscar Shmidt all-time as an offensive player, then? Top-3? Top-5?


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## fleet40 (Jan 14, 2004)

Ok, my bad. He threw me off by stating offensive points. The per 48 minutes is to me a worthless stat. Because anyone can say "IF" a guy could play the 48, or "if" he had played more games. I like to look at simply what they did when they played. To each their own I guess. I guess thats why Bill Walton got in the Hall by only playing a few hundred games for his career in the NBA.


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> I just wonder what a 30+ years old Sabonis would do to an expansion NBA team...
> 
> Look, man, i'm not hating on Sabonis. I loved him in Europe. I was a big fan of Real Madrid back in the day. And yes, before injuries, he was a heck of a player. Still, because he never, at his prime, had to face an 82 game season, and never had to face the best players in the world, pre-NBA Sabonis has no clout with me. If it had, i would be saying Oscar Shmidt was one of the greatest ballers ever.
> 
> ...


Hey I don't think you hate Sabonis, I just don't think he was recognized for being a good center in a time of great centers. A 33 year old Sabonis put up 16pts, 10rebs, and 3assts (in about 32 minutes a night) for a competitve Blazer squad, in a conference that boasted Shaq, Hakeem, and Drobinson, so I don't doubt that he could have done the same (Heck, even more) with an expansion team that would have leaned more heavily (see more minutes) on his multi-faceted skills.

And IIRC, I have Divac over Sabonis in my list.

Stuart


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> So... How do you rank Oscar Shmidt all-time as an offensive player, then? Top-3? Top-5?




Never had the chance to see him play other than a few International games. what I saw of his was good though. The ONLY reason I know more about Sabas is his ties to the Blazers. Again, it's not me trumpeting him it's most of the entire basketball world saying how great he was.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

the point about sabonis is that it's not much different than other players who never faced top competition. sabonis didn't come close to playing against the best centers in the world. playground legends, top college players, oscar schmidt, many have sworn that they were the greatest things ever. 

when sabonis first came to notice over here, the american counterpart was ralph sampson (who was older but still in college) - 7'4 and athletic with a soft touch. ralph was expected to take the torch from kareem. he'd be a bigger legend today if he blew out his legs before stepping on an nba court. 

point is, sabonis in his prime was completely untested against top competition. it makes it impossible to really judge exactly how good he was or could be. he certainly would have been very very good, at minimum. but it's almost unfair to some guys he's almost assumed to have been better than. some guys don't play up to their talent. some guys don't rise to the level of their competition. some guys just don't figure out their games, what their bread and butter's going to be.


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## s a b a s 11 (Dec 31, 2002)

kflo said:


> point is, sabonis in his prime was completely untested against top competition. it makes it impossible to really judge exactly how good he was or could be. he certainly would have been very very good, at minimum. but it's almost unfair to some guys he's almost assumed to have been better than. some guys don't play up to their talent. some guys don't rise to the level of their competition. some guys just don't figure out their games, what their bread and butter's going to be.


Hi kflo! 

Seriously though, I agree with everything you said in the above paragraph. And trying to be as objective as I can be when it comes to these type of lists, I would still respectfully place Sabonis on the list, based solely on what I saw from him in his relatively short NBA career. 

If we're playing "What Could've Been" then thats an entirely different story (and list), I am a huge fan of Sabas, but even then I would have trouble placing him in the top 3 without seeing further proof.

Stuart


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

i don't object to sabas making this list.


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## pmac34 (Feb 10, 2006)

Manute Bol
........ Yinka Dare? lol


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

kflo said:


> the point about sabonis is that it's not much different than other players who never faced top competition. sabonis didn't come close to playing against the best centers in the world. playground legends, top college players, oscar schmidt, many have sworn that they were the greatest things ever.
> 
> when sabonis first came to notice over here, the american counterpart was ralph sampson (who was older but still in college) - 7'4 and athletic with a soft touch. ralph was expected to take the torch from kareem. he'd be a bigger legend today if he blew out his legs before stepping on an nba court.
> 
> point is, sabonis in his prime was completely untested against top competition. it makes it impossible to really judge exactly how good he was or could be. he certainly would have been very very good, at minimum. but it's almost unfair to some guys he's almost assumed to have been better than. some guys don't play up to their talent. some guys don't rise to the level of their competition. some guys just don't figure out their games, what their bread and butter's going to be.



I understand what you are saying, but NBA greats like Pippen, Walton, and others say he was one of the best ever. we are talking about NBA players like Elliott and Radja saying how awesome he was. Just because the competition level wasn't as strong doesn't mean people couldn't see how great the man really was. 

I remember a quote from Jack Ramsey, who had just seen him play overseas. He said that if Sabonis came to the NBA right then he would instantly be the best player in the league. This was 1986. The guy was awesome and should be near the top of any list of great players much less centers of the last 20 years.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

I wouldn't pay too much attention to what Walton says.

I can't comment on Sabonis during his prime because I didn't watch him but...

Toni Kukoc one of the greatest players ever to play in Europe was once compared to Magic Johnson. 



mediocre man said:


> I understand what you are saying, but NBA greats like Pippen, Walton, and others say he was one of the best ever. we are talking about NBA players like Elliott and Radja saying how awesome he was. Just because the competition level wasn't as strong doesn't mean people couldn't see how great the man really was.
> 
> I remember a quote from Jack Ramsey, who had just seen him play overseas. He said that if Sabonis came to the NBA right then he would instantly be the best player in the league. This was 1986. The guy was awesome and should be near the top of any list of great players much less centers of the last 20 years.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

Gilgamesh said:


> I wouldn't pay too much attention to what Walton says.
> 
> I can't comment on Sabonis during his prime because I didn't watch him but...
> 
> Toni Kukoc one of the greatest players ever to play in Europe was once compared to Magic Johnson.



I agree that they mis sometimes, but if you take Sabonis' stats after his injuries in the NBA I think it's safe to say that he would have been dominant had he came over earlier.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

mediocre man said:


> I agree that they mis sometimes, but if you take Sabonis' stats after his injuries in the NBA I think it's safe to say that he would have been dominant had he came over earlier.


the question, to me, is whether he's yao, daugherty, ewing, hakeem, robinson, shaq. there's alot of grades within great.


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## mediocre man (Feb 24, 2004)

kflo said:


> the question, to me, is whether he's yao, daugherty, ewing, hakeem, robinson, shaq. there's alot of grades within great.




Athleticly Hakeem is closest, but so much smaller.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

mediocre man said:


> Athleticly Hakeem is closest, but so much smaller.


athletically, ralph sampson might be closest.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

kflo said:


> athletically, ralph sampson might be closest.


But not skills-wise. Sabonis was extremely skilled, in the post, as a shooter and as a passer. He was as an NBA player and everyone who watched him overseas said he was absurdly skilled. If you gave Ralph Sampson Sabonis' skills, you might be talking about a Hakeem Olajuwon or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar talent.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> But not skills-wise. Sabonis was extremely skilled, in the post, as a shooter and as a passer. He was as an NBA player and everyone who watched him overseas said he was absurdly skilled. If you gave Ralph Sampson Sabonis' skills, you might be talking about a Hakeem Olajuwon or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar talent.


I have no idea about Sabonis' game, but one of the reasons why people expected great things from Sampson was that he was such a skilled and complete player. He could shoot, pass, defend and run the floor very well, and, even as a rookie, had a decent post game to boot. And at 7'4", he had a 34.5" vertical. Admittedly, I've read more about Sampson than I've seen him play, but he didn't get five SI covers for nothing.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Hakeem said:


> I have no idea about Sabonis' game, but one of the reasons why people expected great things from Sampson was that he was such a skilled and complete player. He could shoot, pass, defend and run the floor very well, and, even as a rookie, had a decent post game to boot. And at 7'4", he had a 34.5" vertical. Admittedly, I've read more about Sampson than I've seen him play, but he didn't get five SI covers for nothing.


I know that Sampson was a skilled player, but my impression of him (I saw only a little of him myself) was that he was skilled like Garnett...a surprisingly good shooter and passer for his size. Sabonis was arguably the best passing center ever and a shooter with legitimate range to three point territory, in his prime. He also supposedly ran the floor like a deer.

My post was not meant to impugn Sampson's skills, but to note that Sabonis is considered one of the most skillful centers ever, and combined that with great physical abilities.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Sabonis was a far better then Sampson. Sampson was skilled but not in the Sabonis category.

Another problem with trying to place Sabonis is the effect of injuries. There is no guarentee he wouldn't get hurt if he played in the states. He really had some terrible injuries: had one torn Achellies and while in rehab fell down some stairs in his house and tore his other Achellies: ouch!


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

we're talking with the benefit of hindsight now. we know that sampson wasn't as good as advertised. but he was a gifted athletic 7'4 big man. sabonis had better passing skills. that's his primary advantage over sampson in the early 80s. sampson later got exposed for his shortcomings in the nba. sabonis never had the chance either way in his prime. but sampson coming in to the nba was supposed to be an all-time great. to say we knew, circa 1983, that sabonis was going to be better is just wrong. sampson wasn't supposed to be like garnett. he was supposed to be a legit big man, ala kareem. he was naismith winner 3 times - as a dominant center.

sabonis' post game, compared to other great big men, was certainly suspect. he was simply untested.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

kflo said:


> to say we knew, circa 1983, that sabonis was going to be better is just wrong.


I don't think anyone's saying that (or I didn't notice anyone saying that). The whole point of this exercise is to look at it in hindsight.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

the point is, sampson went on to get exposed for his shortcomings before getting hurt, sabonis gets a free pass because he never gets the chance.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

kflo said:


> the point is, sampson went on to get exposed for his shortcomings before getting hurt, sabonis gets a free pass because he never gets the chance.


Not a free pass. If we ranked him purely on the best projections for his skills and athleticism, he'd be right around the top of this list.

The uncertainty about how exactly he would have developed and impacted the game has dropped him way down the list. I think that, considering he had the upside of being one of the top few centers ever and an absolute floor of being the Sabonis that played for Portland but over a longer NBA career, he belongs in the top half of the list. Because even his floor would place him on this list, in my opinion. His upside would have him battling for the top spot.


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## Hakeem (Aug 12, 2004)

Just out of curiosity, what were Sampson's shortcomings? I know he was inconsistent and lacked the mental strength of most superstars. He was considered soft, but I think that term is overused. It might have been because he liked his jump shot a lot, for he certainly wasn't a bad defender. He didn't have a great post game, and could get bullied by physical post defenders. However, most great centers don't really develop their post games until they've been in the league a few years. What else?


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Minstrel said:


> Not a free pass. If we ranked him purely on the best projections for his skills and athleticism, he'd be right around the top of this list.
> 
> The uncertainty about how exactly he would have developed and impacted the game has dropped him way down the list. I think that, considering he had the upside of being one of the top few centers ever and an absolute floor of being the Sabonis that played for Portland but over a longer NBA career, he belongs in the top half of the list. Because even his floor would place him on this list, in my opinion. His upside would have him battling for the top spot.


So, now we are grading players with the criterias of "what if", and "upside"?

"upside of being oene of the top few centers EVER"? Are you saying that based on what? What Walton once said? Ramsey? Guys who saw a teenager Sabonis creating havok in the local league while playing once-a-week basktball? Too little.

The "upside" and "what if" rule would demand us grading Len Bias as one of the greatest ball players ever (for al acounts, people were comparing him to Michael Jordan while in College), or Grant Hill as one of the greatest SFs ever (forall accounts, if he didn't get injured, we would probably dominate the position for more than a decade).

I don't like this theoretical extrapolations. Maybe, just maybe, there once was a chance that Arvydas Sabonis could become one of the greatest centers/players ever. And i concede that even disregarding the fact that Europe-to-Nba transition, bck in the day, was not so easy (Petrovic - one of the greatest european players ever was no more than All-Nba 3rd team one year; Radja, a top european POST PLAYER, was just a decent NBAer, Tony Kukoc, the best at the time in europe became.. well, Tony Kucok), maybe Sabas had the chance to become a great NBA player.

But he didn't. And we must deal with facts, not supositions.


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

PauloCatarino said:


> So, now we are grading players with the criterias of "what if", and "upside"?


No, based on who they actually _were_, we're trying to make best guesses as to how they compared to players in a different league.



> "upside of being oene of the top few centers EVER"? Are you saying that based on what?{/QUOTE]
> 
> On what many, many NBA people have said in watching Sabonis player in Europe. Plus, a bit of what I've seen, which was highly impressive.
> 
> ...


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

> If you don't believe he was one of the best ten centers in the past 20 years, that's fine. I certainly believe he was a better player than the likes of Willis or Seikaly or Smits.


It's conceivable that a prime Sabonis would be better than those guys. Yes, it is. One can also say with as much certainty as possible, that there's little doubt that he would be much better.
Still:
- Sabonis dind't play in his prime in the States;
- Willis, Seikaly and Smits didn't play in their primes in Europe.
There's really no measuring stick, here. Given that Willis averaged 15+rpg a season in the NBA, ould he be much more dominant board-wise plating in Europe? Maybe yes, maybe no. Probably yes. But we don't know for sure.

If Drazen Petrovic (who many - including myself) name as the greatest european player ever had come the NBA when he was 23, what would have been? Will he have had mor than an all-nba 3rd team in his career? Probably. Will he be one of the greatest SGs (or Gs) of all time? Maybe yes, maybe not. And that's because Drazen was a God in Europe. Still, we can't really say.

What if Bill Walton had stayed healthy? Are we talking Top-5 All-time? Maybe. Why not?

Drazen and Walton are both players who showed *as much * or *more* than Sabonis in their respective primes. Still, where are they in the All-time lists?

I see your point, and a young Sabonis was a marvel to watch. Still, it was in Europe. Much, much inferior competition (remember, national teams were still being beat by college american players!). A game once a week. The works.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

^ I think you're missing Minstrel's keypoint that if Sabonis just played like he did in Portland for 4 years (i.e. what he already shown us) for 10 years (i.e. not projecting him to be any better then what he was in Portland) then he would be considered better then a lot of the bottom 5 guys. I agree with Minstrel, that production over 10 years would have placed him above Divac, Smits, Daugherty pretty easily


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## PauloCatarino (May 31, 2003)

Pioneer10 said:


> ^ I think you're missing Minstrel's keypoint that if Sabonis just played like he did in Portland for 4 years (i.e. what he already shown us) for 10 years (i.e. not projecting him to be any better then what he was in Portland) then he would be considered better then a lot of the bottom 5 guys. I agree with Minstrel, that production over 10 years would have placed him above Divac, Smits, Daugherty pretty easily


Sabonis in his 7 seasons: 12-7.3-2.1
14.5-8.1-1.8;
13.4-7.9-2.1;
16.0-10.0-3.0;
12.1-7.9-2.4;
11.8-7.8-1.8;
10.1-5.4-1.5;
6.1-4.3-1.8

Brad Daugherty in his 8 seasons: 19.0-9.5-3.7
15.7-8.1-3.8;
18.7-8.4-4.2;
18.9-9.2-3.7;
16.8-9.1-3.2;
21.6-10.9-3.3;
21.5-10.4-3.6;
20.2-10.2-4.4;
17.0-10.2-3.0

Divac in 16 seasons: 11.8-8.2-3.1 (max 16.0-10.4-4.1)
Smits in 12 seasons: 14.8-6.1-1.4 (max 17.9-7.7-1.4)

I don't think this is the point HAL is trying to put across.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

PauloCatarino said:


> Sabonis in his 7 seasons: 12-7.3-2.1
> 14.5-8.1-1.8;
> 13.4-7.9-2.1;
> 16.0-10.0-3.0;
> ...


 You're discounting minutes played PC: Sabonis didn't play as many mpg. If you look at his per possesion numbers they were on par and better then the centers listed


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## GTA Addict (Jun 27, 2005)

Sabonis has a higher career PER (21.2, very impressive considering his age) than the highest single-season PERs of Divac (20.5) and Smits (20.2) despite entering the NBA after age 30. Daugherty has a career PER of 18.9.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

Daugherty was one of the best passing big men I ever watched in my life but his shot blocking left a lot to desire for. 

The guy is very underrated. The Cavs with a healthy Daugherty were championship contenders. It's a shame he played in an era loaded with super center talents or he would have gotten more exposure.

Divac and Smits were never as good as Daugherty.

As for Sabonis he is one of the biggest "what ifs".

Sabonis' years with the Blazers don't place him in the top 10. It's the "what ifs" that do. The what if Sabonis came into the NBA during his prime I mean look at what he put up when he was 30+? What if Sabonis had never been injured? 

It is too hard to judge how great Sabonis actually was. I mean didn't he go back to Europe after leaving the NBA and still won a MVP in the Euroleague? However, he was nowhere near the MVP in the NBA. Didn't Petrovic average over 40 ppg in Europe? He came no where close to that here. I mean look at Sarunas in Indiana. Guy was the undisputed best PG in Europe. Here is isn't even in the top 10 or even look at some of the players here that go to Europe. I still remember when Nique went to Europe and became the best player in Europe but back here it was clear that Nique was no longer the 'Human Highlight Film'. Look how good Baston is performing in Europe where as here he would be lucky to get burn. I also gave the Toni Kukoc example earlier. One of the greatest players EVER to play in Europe and although he did not play up to expectations here he is still one of the best imports ever. 

Is Sabonis top 10? _Probably_. But he isn't top 10 because of his NBA accomplishments.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Gilgamesh said:


> Daugherty was one of the best passing big men I ever watched in my life but his shot blocking left a lot to desire for.
> 
> The guy is very underrated. The Cavs with a healthy Daugherty were championship contenders. It's a shame he played in an era loaded with super center talents or he would have gotten more exposure.
> 
> ...


 ^ You have some misconceptions there: 'Nique was NOT the best player in Europe when he went over there not even close actually

Also you underrate Petrovic:
When he finally got burn as he was entering his prime he was averaging 23+ppg on a playoff team while shooting a ridiculous efficient percentage: ppfga (TS%) of 60.5

You also forget to mention Peja was a star in the Euroleague and he translated very well to the NBA

I also think you underestimate how good Sabonis was when he was on the court. I watched both Daugherty and Smits for the majority of there career. Sabonis was at least as equally as good of them in his (admittedly much less) minutes - better shooter then either and a far far better passer. He was a huge space eater in the paint as well from his size.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

Didn't Nique lead his Europe team to the championships? I thought he won MVP. I could be wrong. Who was the best player in Europe at that time just curious? Sabonis I think you would say...and be probably be correct. But a passed his prime Wilkins was still a top player in Europe where as in the NBA he no longer was which was the real jist of my point. 

I know Petrovic didn't get burn early in his career but I was pointing out the fact that the stats put up in Europe could be as deceiving as the stats put up in college. I don't get how you think I underrated Petrovic from what I said. 

Of course just as there are players who do not translate well to the NBA there are those who do. Peja is one of them, Manu and Dirk are others. But would you rank any of them top 10? Maybe Dirk. But there are people who rank Sabonis top 10 center _all-time_ which I think is very disputed. 

My comparison of Daugherty was against Divac and Smits. He was clearly a better player than them. As for Sabonis vs. Daugherty, Daugherty was the better player in the NBA. I can't comment on a prime Sabonis vs. Daugherty because I did not watch a prime Sabonis play. That is why I said probably for whether he is in the top 10 or not but he surely isn't the top 10 because of what he acheived in the NBA. Playing less minutes doesn't make a player better that is why I hate per 48 stats. Like Barkley said a guy who grabs 1 rebound in 1 minute of burn using per 48 stats would be the greatest rebounder ever. When Sabonis played the Blazers he was a terrific player with great talent but he wasn't even an all-star. Daugherty on the other hand was. The guy was a 21-10-4 player something Sabonis wasn't at least in the NBA.



Pioneer10 said:


> ^ You have some misconceptions there: 'Nique was NOT the best player in Europe when he went over there not even close actually
> 
> Also you underrate Petrovic:
> When he finally got burn as he was entering his prime he was averaging 23+ppg on a playoff team while shooting a ridiculous efficient percentage: ppfga (TS%) of 60.5
> ...


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

This isn't a top 10 center of all time but of the last 20 years: big difference.

Manu has a very good chance at being top 10 SG over the last 20 years with a few more season.

Dirk would easily be a top10 pf over the last 20 years as well.

Peja would be in a majority of people's top 10 sf over the last 20 years as well

Thie thing with Daugerty as welll is he had a very short career with only 6 years over 60 games played. His value was significantly reduced by this fact. Interesting that Sabonis at age 31 was putting up higher PER's then a prime Daugherty who didn't last long at all. in fact the 20-10 Daugherty only existed for 3 years total


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

Pioneer10 said:


> This isn't a top 10 center of all time but of the last 20 years: big difference.
> 
> Manu has a very good chance at being top 10 SG over the last 20 years with a few more season.


iverson
mcgrady
kobe
jordan
miller
wade
richmond
drexler
allen
dumars




Pioneer10 said:


> Peja would be in a majority of people's top 10 sf over the last 20 years as well


bird
hill
nique
pippen
mullin
marion
worthy
king
pierce
lebron



Pioneer10 said:


> Thie thing with Daugerty as welll is he had a very short career with only 6 years over 60 games played. His value was significantly reduced by this fact. Interesting that Sabonis at age 31 was putting up higher PER's then a prime Daugherty who didn't last long at all. in fact the 20-10 Daugherty only existed for 3 years total


per certainly is part of the discussion, but so is the fact that sabonis only once played more than 27 mpg. 

i have no problem with having sabonis in there. but i also don't have a problem with keeping him out because his overall output was limited due to his own physical limitations.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Ginobili if he contineus his production will be better then Dumars and Iverson is a PG.

Peja is better then post' 86 King and is pretty equivalent to Mullin.

Again my point is that both these guys games have translated very well to the NBA after starring the Europe. Both are stars in the NBA with the All-star appearances to match


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

ginobili is not as good as dumars at this point of his career. he'll need to get better, not continue as is (per notwithstanding). iverson's played alot more 2 than 1 at this point in his career.

peja is not mullin's equivalent. he's easily behind, imo.

europe today is unquestionably better than it was in the 80s.


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## kflo (Jun 28, 2002)

but i don't have any problem with your point of europeans (or south american's) being successful here.


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## Gilgamesh (Dec 23, 2005)

I know the difference. I am just saying there are some people and professional writers who think Sabonis is top 10 _all-time_.

I don't know many people who would put Peja or Manu in their top 10 at their positions over the last 20 years considering names like MJ, Miller, AI, Kobe, TMac, Clyde, Ray Allen, and Mitch Richmond at SG just to name a few. I would even take players like Reggie Lewis, Robertson, Finley and Dumars ahead of Manu. As for Manu being top 10 when he retires that is possible. As for Peja it would be hard to see him in a top 10 with names like Pippen, Bird, Nique, King, Dantley, English, Mullin, and Aguirre. You could even argue Petrovic is better. That is not even including today's SF who I find better like Marion, Artest, Pierce and players to come. But like Manu who knows when Peja retires he could be top 10 for the last 20 years.

What I am saying is many people base Sabonis' supposed greatness mainly on his Euro accomplishments which are great but it isn't a *fact* but *speculation* that he would be able to translate the same level of success here in the NBA. But then people will argue that hey look at what Sabonis did when he was 30+ here. Well he was never an allstar when he played here. People say look at his age but Shaq is 34 and still doing 20 and 9. Olajuwon continued to make allstar appearences late into his career. 

I'm not saying that Sabonis is not top 10. I can't because I didn't see him in his prime. Maybe you did? But from what I saw when he played in the NBA it is debatable whether or not he deserves to be in the top 10.

As for Daugherty the guy was injured. But pre-injury the man was a multiple all-star who would easily be the 2nd best center today. PER is overrated. According to PER, Shaq is the greatest player of all-time. Neil Johnson is better than Kareem and Barkley. I don't know anybody who would say Sabonis (as far as his NBA career goes) was better than Daugherty's. I also don't know anybody who would say that Sabonis with the Blazers was a better player than Daugherty. 

However, I DO know people who would say that a prime Sabonis was better than Daugherty. Unfortunately, I can't really comment or argue that because I have never seen Sabonis during his prime. BUT I can say is that European success does not automatically translate into NBA success. I mean Sabonis when he first retired from the NBA was still good enough to win MVP in Europe which was not the case here. I'm not trying to demean European basketball but it is clear to me that the leagues there are not the same level as the NBA. Walter Berry who couldn't cut it in the NBA was a legend in Europe.

To summarize, is a _prime_ Sabonis top 10 over the last 20 years. Maybe but people who say that are surely not really basing that on what he did in the NBA and with a ton of speculation. 



Pioneer10 said:


> This isn't a top 10 center of all time but of the last 20 years: big difference.
> 
> Manu has a very good chance at being top 10 SG over the last 20 years with a few more season.
> 
> ...


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Over the last 20 years the highest PER's has been Jordan followed by Shaq (with one D. Rob year thrown in there).

I don't see a big problem with this since everyone is an agreement that Jordan was the best player in the modern era and that Shaq was the best player since he retired. I also don't have a problem placing Shaq easily in the top 10 of all time and arguably in top 5 of all time

Also how does PER prove Neil Johnston was better then Kareem and Barkley? Both Jabbar and Barkley had far higher PER's then Johnston one big season (and we're dissing a guy no one even watched in 1957). You might want to look up more about the stat before making unfounded claims which simply are not true:
Kareem's highest PER seasons:
<table class="small" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr><td>Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*</td><td align="right">28.95</td><td align="right">1971</td></tr></tbody></table><table class="small" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr><td>Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*</td><td align="right">28.46</td><td align="right">1973</td></tr></tbody></table><table class="small" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr><td>Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*</td><td align="right">27.79</td><td align="right">1977</td></tr></tbody></table><table class="small" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr><td>Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*</td><td align="right">27.21</td><td align="right">1976</td></tr></tbody></table>Chucks:
<table class="small" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr><td>Charles Barkley</td><td align="right">28.96</td><td align="right">1991</td></tr></tbody></table><table class="small" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr><td>Charles Barkley</td><td align="right">27.58</td><td align="right">1988</td></tr></tbody></table><table class="small" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr><td>Charles Barkley</td><td align="right">27.58</td><td align="right">1988</td></tr></tbody></table><table class="small" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr><td>Charles Barkley</td><td align="right">26.99</td><td align="right">1989</td></tr></tbody></table>
Poor Neil Johnston forgetten 1950's career <table class="small" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tbody><tr><td>Neil Johnston*</td><td align="right">26.85</td><td align="right">1957</td></tr></tbody></table>


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

Wow, Neil Johnston was good, just looking over his numbers.


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## Pioneer10 (Sep 30, 2004)

Minstrel said:


> Wow, Neil Johnston was good, just looking over his numbers.


 Yeah he averaged over 22+ with 12+ boards while averaging 10 FTs/game (wow) for 5 years or so in his prime but who knows how accurate the stats were back from the early part of the NBA. I wasn't even sure they kept the possesions per game that PER is base on


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