# Is Jeff Van Gundy destroying T-mac's career?



## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

Yes their is some partial blame on t-mac on why he is averaging 20 ppg. Obviously he is the player himself. But do you believe that JVG's offensive system is hampering his career. Is this slow style offense and limited possesions killing t-mac. Are these idiotic picks at the top of the 3 pt line which only results in heavy double teams killing t-mac.It seems as if JVG's plays set up double teams on T-mac. Its purley ridiculous. Plus JVG is heavily relying on role players like Jim Jackson. This guy is almost shooting the same amount as t-mac. T-mac took only 12 shots last game. thats right 12. You would think, well probably because he was shooting horribly... No he was 6-12. T-mac should never shoot 50% and shoot only 12 shots. When you see 50% on t-mac fg% it should be like 12-24.


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## Pan Mengtu (Jun 18, 2004)

Obviously it is.


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

Has T-Mac ever proven to be a productive scorer in a structured offense?


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> Has T-Mac ever proven to be a productive scorer in a structured offense?


Has anyone proven to be a productive scorer in the JVG offense?


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## sweet_constipation (Jul 3, 2004)

Well, at least it can't get *much* worse......right?


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## Charlie Brown (Oct 22, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>S-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> Has anyone proven to be a productive scorer in the JVG offense?


If you consider scoring a relative stat, I would say yeah.


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## Hibachi! (Sep 18, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> 
> 
> If you consider scoring a relative stat, I would say yeah.


And this scorer would be...?


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## Fordy74 (May 22, 2002)

Van Gumby destroyed the Knicks offense and he is now doing the same to Houston's and T-mac's.


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>PSUmtj112</b>!
> Has T-Mac ever proven to be a productive scorer in a structured offense?


what strucutred offense??? all i see is 4 players standing around having fun watching t-mac getting trapped by double and triple teams.


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## Priest (Jun 24, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Fordy74</b>!
> Van Gumby destroyed the Knicks offense and he is now doing the same to Houston's and T-mac's.


Da knicks were destroyed before the birth of jesus


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## Casual (Jun 2, 2003)

Anybody who blames a coach for setting up a half court offense around Yao Ming is smoking something. Yao should be getting at least 5 assists a game to T-Mac alone. It's a combination of things, not just Van Gundy or T-Mac or Yao by themselves.


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## Cometsbiggestfan (May 14, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Casual</b>!
> Anybody who blames a coach for setting up a half court offense around Yao Ming is smoking something. Yao should be getting at least 5 assists a game to T-Mac alone. It's a combination of things, not just Van Gundy or T-Mac or Yao by themselves.




I agree.


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## Drewbs (Feb 16, 2004)

Tmac needs the ball to be effective, Van Gundy's offensive systems basically makes him a standing jumpshooter. If Van Gundy wants to maximize his use of Tmac, he needs to give him more freedom to create. This was the same with Francis.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

Tmac apologists starting already.

Give the guy some blame for his own and teams play for once.


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## Idunkonyou (Feb 23, 2003)

What did you expect? Houston got 1/3 of a 21-61 team last year. Did you guys expect Houston to be a power house? :laugh: 

There were questionable holes from the start at PG, SF and PF. These holes won't go away over night and the Rockets IMO will be a average to below average team until they fill those holes with legit players.


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## cometbus (Nov 22, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>S-Star</b>!
> 
> 
> Has anyone proven to be a productive scorer in the JVG offense?


Latrell Spreewell? i guess he averaged around 24ppg in the system, but even he started hating it.

look, you can't blame jvg. his swingman "superstar" plays suspect defense and loses his intensity in meaningful games. yao will be good, but not for a few more years. juwan howard is also a big problem. a career loser no matter where he goes, whether he's a go-to guy or a role-player. jvg just has inadequate pieces with which to build a team. blame the rocket's gm for getting swindled in the trade. tmac is ok, but he isn't worth mobley AND francis, despite those two's shortcomings.


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## Doggpound (Nov 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>cometbus</b>!
> 
> 
> Latrell Spreewell? i guess he averaged around 24ppg in the system, but even he started hating it.
> ...


Spree didn't avg that much.

No one has ever avg'd more than 20pts/game under JVG....go look it up. It took me checking player bio after bio before I believed it.


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## JT3000 (Nov 3, 2004)

> tmac is ok, but he isn't worth mobley AND francis, despite those two's shortcomings.


Hey, we traded away 4 players in return for 3. :laugh: It wasn't just a 2 for 1 with us getting more.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Doggpound</b>!
> 
> 
> Spree didn't avg that much.
> ...


That's something I never knew......I hatte Van Gundy's style of offense.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

You guys make it seem like Van Gundy forced Tracy to come play for him???? Tracy chose to go play in Houston because he wanted to team up with Yao. He thought that was his best option, maybe it wasn't, but that's doesn't mean JVG is ruining his career. If Tracy wanted to go to a team where he could pick up where he left off last year by scoring alot with better players around him, he should not have choosen Houston.


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## bigpoppa*UK (Nov 26, 2004)

mcGrady is worth francis and mobley easy!
mobley is crap
francis is selfish and petulant

mcgrady must be gutted that after all those seasons of carrying the magic grant is back now,if hed just stayed him and grant could have been GRAVY!

Personally i think that mcGrady has seen his best friend kobe win rings with shaq and thought the next best option would be to get a big man himself its just not working out YET

Im still confident that once Yao gets his game going they can make some noise in the nba, not sure about the rest of the team or the coach(never really liked JVG) but with some positive moves then houston can be for real


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> You guys make it seem like Van Gundy forced Tracy to come play for him???? Tracy chose to go play in Houston because he wanted to team up with Yao. He thought that was his best option, maybe it wasn't, but that's doesn't mean JVG is ruining his career. If Tracy wanted to go to a team where he could pick up where he left off last year by scoring alot with better players around him, he should not have choosen Houston.


I can agree with that.....he knew what he was getting into when he came to Houston. Van Gundy's old style offense is still about to get him fired, not b/c it's not effective, but b/c the fans don't want to pay to watch boring basketball and on top of that the players are not responding...

I want to make another point....I have not seen T-Mac cfomplain about this offense. It's the fans that have the biggest problem with the struggling Rockets. I just wanted the T-Mac bashers, who ever you are, to realize that before they launch an attack.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

IMO, it's tough for Tmac to play in JVG system. But at the same time, it's tough for JVG's system to work because it's a defensive system, and he's got Yao Ming in the middle who's is big, but soft, and he doesn't really have any other great defenders to help the system defensively produce offense.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> IMO, it's tough for Tmac to play in JVG system. But at the same time, it's tough for JVG's system to work because it's a defensive system, and he's got Yao Ming in the middle who's is big, but soft, and he doesn't really have any other great defenders to help the system defensively produce offense.


That's true....that's why D. Fisher would have been the ideal PG for the Rockets b/c he is defensive minded. Even still, I have watched a couple of Rockets games and when they do force turnovers, they don't get into transition for easy buckets. Instead, they slow it down everytime and burn the shot clock. It's hard to do that in the Western Conference where team are built to outscore you. But like you said, Van Gundy's system is built for defensive players, which the Rockets do not have. It's up to him to tweek his system to fit the type of players he has.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> 
> 
> I can agree with that.....he knew what he was getting into when he came to Houston. Van Gundy's old style offense is still about to get him fired, not b/c it's not effective, but b/c the fans don't want to pay to watch boring basketball and on top of that the players are not responding...
> ...


Exactly, T-mac hasnt complained a thing yet. T-mac is can be the Scottie Pippen if he has a more defensive minset. Pick one, Carter or Kobe, T-mac would get his 21/6/6 at 47%FG.


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly, T-mac hasnt complained a thing yet. T-mac is can be the Scottie Pippen if he has a more defensive minset. Pick one, Carter or Kobe, T-mac would get his 21/6/6 at 47%FG.


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> Exactly, T-mac hasnt complained a thing yet. T-mac is can be the Scottie Pippen if he has a more defensive minset. Pick one, Carter or Kobe, T-mac would get his 21/6/6 at 47%FG.


Did you just compare T-Mac to Pippen?


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## IV (Jul 16, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> 
> 
> Did you just compare T-Mac to Pippen?


He wilded out!


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> 
> 
> Did you just compare T-Mac to Pippen?


This might sound stupid.

If T-Mac couldnt make jumpers consistently, he would defer more to other players liek Pippen.

If T-Mac was well coached and told that he has to play team D like Pippen when he first came out of highschool.

If T-mac never gets to play his game freedomly, there was no way we fans would thought of him being a 33 points scorer.

yeah, T-mac is the closest of Pippen. But F U 33!


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## 33 (Nov 18, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>IV</b>!
> 
> 
> He wilded out!


He sure did.......Where did Vince come from? Vince is the softest player in NBA history


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## CrookedJ (May 8, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Doggpound</b>!
> 
> 
> Spree didn't avg that much.
> ...


96/97 Knicks 
Ewing 22.4
Houston 14.8

97/98 Knicks
Ewing 20.8
Houston 18.4

98/99 Knicks
Ewing 17.3
Spewell 16.4
Houston 16.3

99/00
Houston 19.7
Sprewell 18.6
Ewing 15.0

00/01
Houston 18.7 
Sprewell 17.7

01/02 - JVG 19 games Don Chaney 63 games
Houston 20.4
Sprewell 19.4

I'm not sure what it means but those are the leading scorers under Van Gundy with the Knicks. He likes to slow it down to limit possesions for the other team, this also means less possesion and less points for his teams. Houston and Sprewell both scored the most in the yeqr that he left - I assume mainly in the Don Chaney coached games.


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## Pinball (Aug 3, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>33</b>!
> 
> 
> He sure did.......Where did Vince come from? Vince is the softest player in NBA history


Is this the first time you've ever read one of John's posts? You'll see "Carter" or "Penny" appear in his posts about as often punctuation. Other things you'll see in John's posts:

LOL
F!
Fukxer
LMAO!
Scrub
True Scrub
Loser
F U

The man should have his own dictionary.


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## Doggpound (Nov 1, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>CrookedJ</b>!
> 
> 
> 96/97 Knicks
> ...



Nice call on the 96/97 year. The 97/98 season doesn't count though, Ewing didn't qualify because he was hurt. I initially heard that statement about JVG when all the T-Mac/Francis trade talk was going on and then looked it up. Still have heard it since a few times. Guess everyone missed that 96/97 year, or thought that was the year he only coached the last 10 games or whatever.


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

In a coaches first year, I would doubt that a star player like Ewing would drop below 20+ ppg like he had been putting up previous years before that, But if you noticed, year after year since Gumby was coaching there, Ewings ppg declined


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## lakegz (Mar 31, 2004)

Ewing was getting old and injury prone too we must acknowledge.


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## Jamel Irief (May 19, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jewelz</b>!
> In a coaches first year, I would doubt that a star player like Ewing would drop below 20+ ppg like he had been putting up previous years before that, But if you noticed, year after year since Gumby was coaching there, Ewings ppg declined


I noticed that Michael Jordan's scoring went down when he became a teammate of Jahidi White.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Pinball</b>!
> 
> 
> Is this the first time you've ever read one of John's posts? You'll see "Carter" or "Penny" appear in his posts about as often punctuation. Other things you'll see in John's posts:
> ...


Well, I didnt use those terms well until I knew PINBALL=ANY OF THIS ABOVE.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jamel Irief</b>!
> 
> 
> I noticed that Michael Jordan's scoring went down when he became a teammate of Jahidi White.


I also noticed the board would be great without you. That's my opinion only.


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## Debt Collector (Mar 13, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> Well, I didnt use those terms well until I knew PINBALL=ANY OF THIS ABOVE.


:laugh:


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Whodinee</b>!
> 
> 
> :laugh:


Why laugh? T-mac is a loser.


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## cometbus (Nov 22, 2004)

wow. this sure is a vindictive forum. i'll watch my back from now on. anyway . . .


jvg = defensive coach

tmac & yao = not good defensive players


the problem seems pretty apparent, eh?


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## Minstrel (Dec 31, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>John</b>!
> 
> 
> Why laugh? T-mac is a loser.


McGrady is what Penny Hardaway tried to be and failed. So Penny went and injured himself in anger. Which has had a deleterious effect on Penny's career. True story.

Just goes to show you where anger can lead. Release your anger, John. Don't be like Penny.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Penny in his prime was better than TMac, no doubt.


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## John (Jun 9, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Amareca</b>!
> Penny in his prime was better than TMac, no doubt.


good post. Penny isnt like today's player trying to pad his stats.

His assists was meaningful, his points was meaningful.

yeah Penny used picks a lot to free himself up, but he used picks against mid 90s small quick point guards. Not like he is using picks like T-mac or James against player his size.


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Amareca</b>!
> Penny in his prime was better than TMac, no doubt.


penny might have had high assist numbers but he definitly did not have the talent that mcgrady has to drop 30 every night.


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Amareca</b>!
> Penny in his prime was better than TMac, no doubt.


:rotf: 

Penny in his prime had Shaq. T-Mac hasnt had Shaq at all in his career and he is better than Penny was

Don't fool yourself :laugh:


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Penny's best years were when Shaq left and before injuries destroyed his career.


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Amareca</b>!
> Penny's best years were when Shaq left and before injuries destroyed his career.


Penny did have good years even after SHaq left, but McGrady has had better years than Penny has


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>farhan007</b>!
> 
> penny might have had high assist numbers but he definitly did not have the talent that mcgrady has to drop 30 every night.


He could score 30 anytime he wanted pretty much but unlike TMac he had a much better feeling for the game and a simply better understanding of the game.

He had back to back 40+ games in the playoffs against the #1 seat Pat Riley's defensive minded Heat.


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jewelz</b>!
> 
> 
> Penny did have good years even after SHaq left, but McGrady has had better years than Penny has


Only if you look at scoring numbers.

Penny still lead his teams to the playoffs everytime he was healthy enough to play.


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Amareca</b>!
> 
> 
> Only if you look at scoring numbers.
> ...


So did McGrady


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

Like last year or this year huh?


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

Penny's stats year by year

93-94: 16/5/6 (With Shaq)
94-95: 20/4/7 (With Shaq)
95-96: 21/4/7 (With Shaq)
96-97: 20/4/5 (Without Shaq)
97-98: 16/4/3 (Injury Season, Without Shaq)
98-99: 15/5/5 (Without Shaq)
99-00: 16/4/5 (With Suns)

Everything after that is injury plagued

You notice that he averaged more assists per game with Shaq than without him

McGrady's stats are way more impressive than Penny's, and McGrady is only 25! Has alot more years left


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

> Originally posted by <b>Jewelz</b>!
> Penny's stats year by year
> 
> 93-94: 16/5/6 (With Shaq) *16/5/7*
> ...


If we are going to round at least do it right.

And Penny always shot in the high 40s or over 50%.

It's argueable that Shaq was better than Penny at that point Shaq wasn't nearly the player he was with the Lakers during their championship years.

Penny was their best player in the finals against Houston.

Take this from his bio on nba.com
_Played three years alongside Shaquille O’Neal in Orlando (1993-94 - 1995-96). During that span, Penny played 32 games without Shaq in which Magic went 23-9 and averaged 25.8 ppg, 6.4 apg and 4.9 rpg_


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Amareca</b>!
> 
> 
> If we are going to round at least do it right.
> ...


I don't remember Penny making the Top 50 Players of All-Time list during his days in Orlando...Shaq did

And did you ever stop to think that the Magic had better teammates and roleplayers around Penny then they ever did with McGrady?

Look at this, after Shaq left, in penny's first year as the Magic's star player, he put up 21/5/6 and they made the playoffs....now skip ahead and notice how McGrady put up 28/5/5 and they didnt. Penny had a better supporting cast than McGrady has, and McGrady's job was more different than Penny's. McGrady scored more than Penny, Penny was a PG, McGrady was not

If you want to believe that Penny is better in his prime than McGrady, that's fine. McGrady is only 25 and probably hasnt even reached his prime yet. All I know is that in 5 years, your story will probably be different


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## Amareca (Oct 21, 2002)

In 5 years McGrady will likely be worse than now and battle back problems every day.


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>Amareca</b>!
> In 5 years McGrady will likely be worse than now and battle back problems every day.


We will see

either way, Penny went down with his injury, and if McGrady goes down with his, then IMO McGrady was still the better player


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## farhan007 (Jun 6, 2003)

> Originally posted by <b>Amareca</b>!
> In 5 years McGrady will likely be worse than now and battle back problems every day.


    did you just randomly pulled that out of your head???

One day Amare will do his dishes and slip on the floor and will tear his muscle severly which will force him to retire...


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## Jewelz (Nov 13, 2004)

> Originally posted by <b>farhan007</b>!
> 
> 
> did you just randomly pulled that out of your head???
> ...


:laugh:


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